# Horses that "dish"



## SatansLittleHelper (27 February 2016)

Just curious to see if anyone has a horse that dishes?
Is it an issue that can be allieviated by correct schooling? Can it be a really big problem?
I was watching a video of a big Shire x that was around 7 years old...it had no real schooling etc but seemed to be completely unaware of where all of its feet were and dished at the front. I've only ever seen one that dished and she was a riding school horse who didn't seem to have any issues from it :/


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## ozpoz (27 February 2016)

I have never heard of dishing being improved by schooling or anything else.
I have never had a horse that dishes personally. It is something I always walk away from.


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## FfionWinnie (27 February 2016)

Yes it can be and I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't own it!

I viewed a horse a year past Nov and I didn't buy her because she dished horrifically and brushed behind. 

I accidentally viewed her again not knowing it was the same horse June 2015 and this time she not only brushed and dished she was apparently unlevel and terrorised too. 

So obviously I bought her (ha ha!). 

This was in Nov 2014.  You can see she paddles her whole shoulder out in this pic. 







I don't have any specific photos to show this so this is just a video still which shows the difference in her leg position. The photo isn't great nor is the angle but I've examined hours of video of her recently and she doesn't do it anything like before. This is after an extensive schooling, physio and strengthening programme over the last 8 months. She also no longer brushes to the same degree and I am hopeful with more work (she is a massive mover and still not in control of her body yet) this will resolve too. She doesn't need boots out hacking now, when I bought her she was causing her own legs to bleed she brushed so badly. 







Now all that said, an older established horse that dishes probably won't change whatever you do, but I would think a very weak young shire may do, with the correct work. 

Just cos she is amazing and has come so far:


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## SatansLittleHelper (27 February 2016)

Wow...she's GORGEOUS! !!
Thanks for the info. I've been reading up alot on conformation etc and it's fascinating to see how different issues can be overcome with the correct schooling and work.
Your mare looks fab


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## AdorableAlice (27 February 2016)

It is worth remembering that incorrect movement puts incorrect forces through the limb and foot balance is compromised, however it is very much horses for courses that must be considered when purchasing.  A horse that would be doing a lot of hunting and road bashing would not want to dish, be toed in or out badly for instance.

Some horses will grow and strengthen and gradually improve with age.  Carl Hester's Dolendo dished spectacularly but it didn't stop him getting to grand prix.  I would not touch a badly moving horse but that is just personal preference and trying to avoid future unsoundness.


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## ILuvCowparsely (27 February 2016)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Just curious to see if anyone has a horse that dishes?
Is it an issue that can be allieviated by correct schooling? Can it be a really big problem?
I was watching a video of a big Shire x that was around 7 years old...it had no real schooling etc but seemed to be completely unaware of where all of its feet were and dished at the front. I've only ever seen one that dished and she was a riding school horse who didn't seem to have any issues from it :/
		
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My late horse dished just on the off fore, she did it all her life and it did not get worst or better over the years or with schooling.  The only thing that might have been an issue is it might have been the reason why the laminitis only effected this foot incorrect placement when in contact on he ground.

It was noticeable but not in a major outward movement


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## Red-1 (27 February 2016)

My first eventer dished, and I mean in a comically exaggerated way! Mum used to say you could recognise George in a collecting ring from a distance by him waving to her, even without her glasses. 

He did not improve at all, and was beautifully schooled. He was also sound through to Intermediate BE, and lived a long and healthy life.


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## Goldenstar (27 February 2016)

Minor dishing can correct with training .
Poor farriery can make it worse and good foot balance can all but remove it .
Muscle issues can also cause straight moving horses to swing their limbs oddly giving the appearance of dishing or going Pigeon toed the bigger moving types are more likely to show this type of issue and the physio can help that .
I would not buy a horse with a severe dish I hate it , one of my ID's has a very minor dish on one foreleg as he's become physically more built up and straighter in his training it's hardly visible now .
My first event horse was ,like Red-1's horse,  a comical disher she moved so badly you could not work out what the Incorrectness was her legs went in all directions and it looked like she might trip herself up she hunted into her mid twenties while one perfect beauifully correct young horse I bought was a soundness nightmare despite having every advantage in life .


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## cobgoblin (27 February 2016)

We had a shire cross that dished dreadfully as a youngster. I'm not sure what age he was when it disappeared,  I'm certain he moved straight by 7yrs but had been ridden and schooled quite a lot by then.
He never had any problems with his joints or feet.


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## millikins (27 February 2016)

I always thought dishing was only a problem if the hoof is not then placed correctly on the ground, thus causing uneven strain on tendons and hoof structure. If the foot goes down normally, then the dishing is unimportant.


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## Rollin (27 February 2016)

Didn't Henry Cecil win the Oaks with a filly that dished?  or was it some other problem?


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## FfionWinnie (27 February 2016)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Wow...she's GORGEOUS! !!
Thanks for the info. I've been reading up alot on conformation etc and it's fascinating to see how different issues can be overcome with the correct schooling and work.
Your mare looks fab 

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Thanks. She's growing on me lol. She still has a long way to go but considering I bought her thinking she was crocked physically and mentally, it's now becoming clear not only are all her issues now fixed, but also I've bought the most talented horse I've ever owned, literally by accident!  I only bought her out of pity as a second horse to see what I could do with her with the idea of selling her on as a light hack, however she's going nowhere now. .


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## AdorableAlice (27 February 2016)

Rollin said:



			Didn't Henry Cecil win the Oaks with a filly that dished?  or was it some other problem?
		
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Midday ? 

The spanish horses all seem to dish.  I suppose it is whatever is acceptable to the owner.


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## Goldenstar (27 February 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Midday ? 

The spanish horses all seem to dish.  I suppose it is whatever is acceptable to the owner.
		
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They says it's supposed to confuse the bulls !


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## AdorableAlice (27 February 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			They says it's supposed to confuse the bulls !
		
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I love this forum, something new to learn everyday !

If I had a horse that dished it would trip me up and splat me in the mud.


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## Pinkvboots (27 February 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Midday ? 

The spanish horses all seem to dish.  I suppose it is whatever is acceptable to the owner.
		
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my friends andalusian has a really bad dish to the point that when she is ridden in the school her feet touch the boards around the edges, I didn't know it was common in Spanish horses, you learn something everyday.


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## Java (27 February 2016)

Yep, my mare dishes (although not severe). I noted it as a feature of her breed (Pottok). Interesting about the Spanish horses as the Pottoks although a very ancient breed are strongly related to the Spanish breeds. Never caused an issue. Very excited to meet her foal due early May too  eeeee so excited!


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## Micropony (27 February 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			They says it's supposed to confuse the bulls !
		
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I'd heard that too but wasn't sure whether my leg was being pulled!

My friend's young Welsh D used to dish when she first got him, not terrible but quite noticeable. 18 months on, with careful farriery and patient, correct work, he's muscled up nicely and it's much less evident.


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## Red-1 (27 February 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			They says it's supposed to confuse the bulls !
		
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LOL!!!


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## PolarSkye (27 February 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			I love this forum, something new to learn everyday !

If I had a horse that dished it would trip me up and splat me in the mud.
		
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This made me LOL - and me too!

P


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## oldjumper (27 February 2016)

Our most successful SJ dishes (one leg only). He is now 20 and has never been lame. I don't think schooling has really made any difference. The only time it caused a problem was at a combined training years ago when the dressage judge disqualified him for lameness! He won a 1.20 class later that week... He also has incredible stamina and has done several long distance rides.


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## shortstuff99 (27 February 2016)

A lot of Spanish horses dish, however they (mainly) dish from the fetlock and not the knee (which is apparently better). And most of them will land with the hoof evenly so it doesn't really cause issues. My Spanish mare dishes but she lands straight and it causes her no issues.


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## Orangehorse (27 February 2016)

I have seen many Welsh Cobs that dish too.  Is it something to do with a higher knee action?


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## Wundahorse (27 February 2016)

Our WB dishes with his near side fore, like a paddle dish. He injured himself as a yearling putting his foot down a rabbit hole,causing a slight pigeon toe. This did not affect his performance but the eye was drawn to the dish. He has developed lower ringbone in the coffin joint in his off fore, likely to have been caused by years of overcompensating for the dish.


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## tallyho! (27 February 2016)

It's true at one time dishing was sought after in a spanish horse and unless you saw one that dished, it wasn't genuine! Thank goodness that has stopped however, it's still not a bad thing, its just viewed as "flashy".

Dishing is a huge problem if it affects the placement of the palmar hoof angle. Otherwise a bit of hypermobility is completely acceptable. 

My mare dishes one foot. She "yoo-hoos" as I call it but that foot is not different to the other one and she has never been shod. Funny though.. if she tanks off at full pelt - there is no dishing! I think it's a poncement that some horse just have.


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## Honey08 (27 February 2016)

I worked with a young Italian horse that dished.  He was eventing at novice level while I was there, and went onto represent Italy at the Europeans the year Zara won it.  He still dished, but it didn't seem to hinder him!


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## shortstuff99 (27 February 2016)

Yes my mare dishes more if she is showing off or a bit 'hot' if she's working normally she barely does it now.


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## Cortez (27 February 2016)

I wish I could find a Spanish horse that dished! They are steadily "improving" this trait out of existence in pursuit of more sales to people who prefer straight movement (largely residing in the UK  The real old type of Spanish horse would fling legs in every direction; my type of horse. I've had many that did this, never a one has had any adverse effects. Horses with a lot of knee action tend to rotate the leg.


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## SatansLittleHelper (28 February 2016)

Thanks for all of the replies...very interesting. Im supposing that the impact the dishing has very much depends on the individual horse and its breeding, age etc?
 I didn't know about the confusing the bulls thing either!!!


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## silv (28 February 2016)

I do a lot of dressage writing, it is amazing the number of horses who dish, it is really noticeable whilst sitting in the judges car at C.  I reckon the last show at least 50% of the horses had a dish of varying degrees.


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## planete (28 February 2016)

My Lipi x dishes.  I have had comments over the years about his legs being 'all over the place' from various professionals, including the vet who did his pre-purchase examination.  It has never worried him nor me.


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## Cortez (28 February 2016)

Erm, I have a suspicion that the "confusing the bulls" comment was a tongue-in-cheek jibe at the expense of the "foreigner", something that Spanish horsemen are quite fond of


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## Goldenstar (28 February 2016)

Cortez said:



			Erm, I have a suspicion that the "confusing the bulls" comment was a tongue-in-cheek jibe at the expense of the "foreigner", something that Spanish horsemen are quite fond of 

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Well did come from a someone I know well personally I thought it was post rationalisation of why the horse where all moving incorrectly .


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## tallyho! (28 February 2016)

Cortez said:



			I wish I could find a Spanish horse that dished! They are steadily "improving" this trait out of existence in pursuit of more sales to people who prefer straight movement (largely residing in the UK  The real old type of Spanish horse would fling legs in every direction; my type of horse. I've had many that did this, never a one has had any adverse effects. Horses with a lot of knee action tend to rotate the leg.
		
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Would you like mine?


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## SatansLittleHelper (28 February 2016)

If a horse dishes then would it be considered as a fault and fail a vetting?


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## shortstuff99 (28 February 2016)

No mine passed a 5 stage with a dish. I though that in Spain the more your horse dished the richer you were supposed to be.....


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## minkymoo (28 February 2016)

I have a PRE and he dishes. Funnily enough after his knee problems he didn't dish on his left side. The day he dished equally was one of the best ever!

In Spain, the more the dish the better, here, less so ( outside of Spanish horse lovers that is!). 

I love it, but then I would!


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## Cortez (28 February 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Well did come from a someone I know well personally I thought it was post rationalisation of why the horse where all moving incorrectly .
		
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Ah, but they are not moving incorrectly for a Spanish horse, or any of the other breeds where that is a desired trait.


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## Cortez (28 February 2016)

tallyho! said:



			Would you like mine? 

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Possibly


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## AdorableAlice (28 February 2016)

Cortez said:



			Ah, but they are not moving incorrectly for a Spanish horse, or any of the other breeds where that is a desired trait.
		
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I am confused, why would flinging legs all over the place be desired ?

The dressage world is finally coming to realise that the excessively forelimb movement is detrimental to the production of a true two time trot, many pictures can be seen of so called big movers with just one limb on the floor in trot, that is incorrect.


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## Goldenstar (28 February 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			I am confused, why would flinging legs all over the place be desired ?

The dressage world is finally coming to realise that the excessively forelimb movement is detrimental to the production of a true two time trot, many pictures can be seen of so called big movers with just one limb on the floor in trot, that is incorrect.
		
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It certainly is and not a nice thing to see.


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## shortstuff99 (28 February 2016)

I think Cortez is meaning dishing, so even though they are dishing wildly they are still maintaining a 2 time trot, not leg flinging a la Totilas who fling their front legs not in a 2 time beat. 

Because at the end of the day who decided dishing was a 'bad' trait as plenty of breeds do it who live just as long sound lives as those who don't?


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## AdorableAlice (28 February 2016)

shortstuff99 said:



			I think Cortez is meaning dishing, so even though they are dishing wildly they are still maintaining a 2 time trot, not leg flinging a la Totilas who fling their front legs not in a 2 time beat. 

Because at the end of the day who decided dishing was a 'bad' trait as plenty of breeds do it who live just as long sound lives as those who don't?
		
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She was referring to dishing, it was just my thoughts about dressage horses, sorry for confusion.


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## Enfys (28 February 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			Yes it can be and I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't own it!

This was in Nov 2014.  You can see she paddles her whole shoulder out in this pic. 







[/IMG]
		
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If she had done that on both sides to that extent, and hadn't improved you would almost suspect that she had Peruvian in her. 

Termino is serious dishing but breed specific. There was a video floating around FB a while ago about a girl and her horse, doing all kinds of stuff, she got some really nasty comments about her horses movement, it was a Peruvian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eUitupQwao


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## Cortez (28 February 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			She was referring to dishing, it was just my thoughts about dressage horses, sorry for confusion.
		
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Yes I was, but dishing is not penalised in dressage either, as long as the trot is regular and the movement comes from the hind end. Quite a few very fancy dressage horses would give the showing crowd conniptions 

I love the pure brio and flamboyance of Spanish horses' movement, it is primarily for showing off, but it also gives their collected movements height and brilliance. And it is the way the old Masters' horses moved. Unless the horse is interfering, dishing has not IME caused soundness concerns.


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## Goldenstar (28 February 2016)

It's not considered desirable in Lipizzaners is it .
They are the true baroque type are they not .


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## FfionWinnie (28 February 2016)

Enfys said:



			If she had done that on both sides to that extent, and hadn't improved you would almost suspect that she had Peruvian in her. 

Termino is serious dishing but breed specific. There was a video floating around FB a while ago about a girl and her horse, doing all kinds of stuff, she got some really nasty comments about her horses movement, it was a Peruvian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eUitupQwao

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Is it a desired trait in them?  She's a Welsh section D. Think I would have left her with the dealer if it had been quite *that* bad LOL

It's funny because people now compliment me on her amazing trot when I just remember legs flapping around all over the place looking horrific!  

First time my SJ instructor saw her he put his head in his hands and said well you'll never do anything with that trot, he's since eaten his words lol


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## tallyho! (28 February 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			It's not considered desirable in Lipizzaners is it .
They are the true baroque type are they not .
		
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THE true baroque??

Possibly the only true baroque horse would be the Spanish horse from which the Lipizzaner is descended. The book "The Royal Horse of Europe" by Sylvia Loch explains the origins very well and explains how Maximillian II brought the Spanish horse to Kladrub in the 1500's. It's a really good read if you've never read it before.


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## Enfys (29 February 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			Is it a desired trait in them?
		
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 Oh yes, absolutely


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## hackneylass2 (29 February 2016)

'I have seen many Welsh Cobs that dish too. Is it something to do with a higher knee action?'

Could be.  My Hackney dished evenly on both fores.  Had no problems at all with it throughout her very long life.  Would rather have a disher than a plaiter.


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## millitiger (29 February 2016)

I've bought a number of horses that dished, including current one.

All without exception have improved immeasurably with correct farriery and schooling and none had soundness issues.

All had straight legs and landed with a straight foot though.


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## MS123 (1 March 2016)

My Spanish mare dished; it never caused her any issues and it did actually get better as she gained more balance and became more established (I bought her as a 4 Y/O), we competed quite successfully too.


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## Casey76 (1 March 2016)

The "dish" in Spanish and/or Iberian horse is called "campano" or "fimbra" if I recall correctly.  It is certainly breed specific, and not a conformational fault as the hoof still lands heel first with equal weight bearing on both heel bulbs.  This means that they are "straight moving" even with the dish.

Both of mine dish to a certain extent (part of their Iberian heritage), though it only gets really noticeable when they are due to be trimmed.


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## Lanky Loll (1 March 2016)

Current ISH youngster looks like he's swimming  but the hoof lands correctly, and as he muscles up it seems to be diminishing - still wouldn't want to lead him for a trot up though 
Years ago my little welsh x SJ pony had a pronounced dish and the more excited he got the bigger the dish - and the better he jumped  if he walked into the ring calm and straight you knew it wasn't going to be a good day


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## Annagain (1 March 2016)

My old Welsh Cob  only dished when doing flat work, out hacking or if you stuck a jump up it disappeared. I think he did it on purpose to avoid dressage! 

I assume it had more to do with going forward more when he was enjoying himself.


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## smja (1 March 2016)

All three of our current horses dish/have dished to varying extent. All have been improved with a combination of proper work and good farriery.

Current horse was pronounced to have 'the weirdest movement I've ever seen' by our vet. In hand, his legs appear to all move separately of each other. Under saddle and working into the hand, straight as a die and gets good marks for paces. Galloping/getting excited, back to flailing (though not as badly as in hand!).
It's never bothered him (touch wood), hoof does land correctly.


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