# Am I the only one fuming at H&H's answer to Irish welfare problem??



## JanetGeorge (21 August 2010)

A combination of the recession and overbreeding has led to a fall in the market for some Irish horses.

One of the answers is for British buyers to look to Ireland when buying their new sport horse.
		
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WHY??  If the Irish over-produce a lot of sub-standard horses, why should British buyers buy them  (and ignore British breeders - most of whom breed more responsibly??)

I have two of these 'bought from Ireland' sport horses in for schooling/re-backing at present.  Both are nice horses but their early training was VERY hit and miss. One is a very smart 4 year old -good enough to event to a high standard - his breeding is recorded in pencil on a generic passport - presumably because the breeder didn'twant to pay for DNA testing!!  The other was very thin and quiet when buyer purchased - as soon as his condition was improved, it was clear he'd been barely backed and he bucked like stink!

Of course there are some producers in Ireland who do a good job: breed responsibly and produce their horses well.  And I'll bet most of them still have a decent market!  The problem is the randomly bred, poorly produced horses who are backed (just) and hunted at barely 3 years old.

Tell me, H&H, why should British breeders of good quality sport horses - properly raised and produced - suffer while buyers are encouraged to go over and buy Irish over-production of poor quality horses??

The answer to the Irish over-production problem is one for Horse Sport Ireland and the Irish breeders - not for the British buyer!  Our own horse market is pretty stagnant at present and many breeders here - myself included - have kept some mares empty to allow ourselves a chance to catch up.  We are having to sell good horses at less than the cost of production!  We don't have a major welfare problem here YET - but we have a lot of breeders struggling to continue to care for youngsters against a background of poor sales, rising costs and the drought that many of us have suffered - hitting grass growth and forage supplies.

Where's the support for British breeders, H&H!!


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## Trinity Fox (21 August 2010)

I have to say i agree with you, it s pure greed the irish producers were happy to cash in when getting over inflated prices, now they are not happy that the  english buyers who were willing to pay ridiclous prices are no longer there.
They are not willing to ride rough times and take care of horses they produce and are treating them no better than meat animals.

I have to say  English breeders would never do this with the animals they breed on the whole, i think many buyers should look towards home and i think after the whole ISH thing and the fact alot of them have not produced the results expected we may all look back to good English breeders.


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## Allover (21 August 2010)

Well said!


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## natalia (21 August 2010)

There will always be a Market for well bred, nicely produced animals who are in good condition and have a competing future. My friend is out in ireland buying me some horses now and has just spent £5500 on a classy four year old to produce on. What there isn't a Market for is badly put together, unreg tb or tb x breeds who are unstarted and badly handled. I'm afraid I think a cull is a good idea ( ideally each horse assessed and those that don't make the grade then shot) that way any quality animals would remain. I also think that Irish breeders should be encouraged to have their young stock graded.


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## misterjinglejay (21 August 2010)

Echo Janet. Exactly what I was thinking.


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## reindeerlover (21 August 2010)

I'm not going to talk about the cull and the pros and cons but I agree that that view is a rather over simplified one; You feel sorry for the Irish horses? Go buy some. Will they say that next year? You feel sorry for the English/Welsh/French/Scottish horses? Go buy one. Tut.


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## perfect11s (21 August 2010)

yes ditto.. sadly its about greed and poor business,  they have done the same with  houses!!!! building  them anywhere there was land avalible and not always in a area with jobs or need  and then the credit crunch hit , as for the H&Hs article it sounds like the writer didn't  see the bigger picture  and offered a simple short term solution to a dificult problem that
in the end will sort itself out  like most of the results of the ressession.... in time .


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## Maesfen (21 August 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			WHY??  If the Irish over-produce a lot of sub-standard horses, why should British buyers buy them  (and ignore British breeders - most of whom breed more responsibly??)

Where's the support for British breeders, H&H!!
		
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Exactly, agree 100% with you Janet.
H & H seem to have no interest in British breeding at all, they could do a great deal more to fly the flag.


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## SusieT (21 August 2010)

TBH I think that whilst many in Britain don't like to think of it, the problems are the same in both countries..Overproduction of sub standard stock and let us not forget it was britain who produce Jamie Gray.. There has not to my knowledge been anything on the same scale over in Ireland as that.
I did wonder though..why that was a solution when a large amount of the very nice horses in Ireland already make it to Britain.


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## SirenaXVI (21 August 2010)

Totally agree with both Janet and SusieT.

There are many good breeders in this country who produce wonderful youngsters, why go abroad or to Ireland, if our own H&H does not support them what chance do they have.

SusieT makes a very valid point, there are bin end dealers and breeders in this country too, we have our own overflow of unwanted horses, you only have to look at the amount of horses our welfare societies are having to deal with, why oh why should we increase the problem by taking in Ireland's unwanted?


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## Kaylum (21 August 2010)

Agree, its not the answer, its a point of view from whoever wrote it, who seems to have no idea about the real situation over here.  

Promote your breeders and quality horses over here.  Dont go buy in ireland because all they will do is breed more, just like for example puppy farms in relation to dogs (as they are now as expensive as some foals).


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## SusieT (21 August 2010)

I have to say I found the article very demeaning to the Irish and generally written by someone with too much of a *dare I say it* fluffy stance.
Certainly there were some horror stories but there was no real attempt to dig deeper than surface level or put much of substance into the article. I found it very boring and not worth the paper it was written on. 
Don't forget however, if you want the Irish to stop breeding you will lose some of the wonderful irish hunters, sport horses etc. that are often very much prized in Britain.


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## JanetGeorge (21 August 2010)

SusieT said:



			Don't forget however, if you want the Irish to stop breeding you will lose some of the wonderful irish hunters, sport horses etc. that are often very much prized in Britain.
		
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No-one wants the Irish to STOP breeding - just to stop excessive and irresponsible breeding.  There are some outstanding breeders in Ireland - who produce horses that are in demand all over the world!  Hell, WE can't afford a lot of them!

It's the sub-standard mares put to the nearest stallion whether he's any good or not - or suits the mare or not!  It's youngsters reared in sub-standard conditions -rarely seeing a foot trim or a wormer before being roughly backed too young and flogged over here!

THIS -would you believe it - was a VERY well bred IDSH mare I bought from Ireland a few years ago.







She'd SJ at 4, obviously something went wrong and she bred a few foals -none of which can be tracked because she was never named.  That was her at 10 when I bought her for peanuts!  She was even thinner than she looks in that pic, covered in weather scald, feet were horrendous!!  And yes, I bought her from a breeder - not a 'James Grey' type dealer!  And bought a couple of other stunning youngsters from the same man - a 2 year old who was untouched (literally); a stunning, well-bred 4 year old WBxISH with breeding to DIE for - poor as a crow, weather scald, feet like a Brook rescue!


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## Rowreach (21 August 2010)

Yes, well, unfortunately some of the good breeders over here ARE giving up - I know of a farm not far from here where you can have your pick of nearly 50 foals to 4yo and broodmares, pure ID or ID/TB (no foreign blood) with some of the best blood lines in the country, and not for huge money either.  This breeder is fed up with the whole Irish horse breeding/marketing thing, and is of an age where retirement is on the cards anyway, so why carry on?

This year's stallion parades showed few if any top class draught stallions (which is why my two rather splendid colts are staying just that) and many "good" breeders are simply not bothering to cover their mares because they cannot recoup the cost of producing the foals.  There are a few people like me who are buying decent youngstock and looking to keep them for the long haul, back and produce them properly at 4yo (no sooner than that) and pray that there will be a market for them (yes, in England!) as there probably won't be too many of them about by then.

I was in England last week and a friend of mine says she simply cannot find quality big horses any more, so what are you English breeders producing then?


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## Shilasdair (21 August 2010)

Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland are the same aren't they?
S


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## reindeerlover (21 August 2010)

Shilasdair said:



			Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland are the same aren't they?
S 

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Hey, don't get me started.....


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## Shilasdair (21 August 2010)

Farrierlover said:



			Hey, don't get me started..... 

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Next you'll be telling me that Britain and England are synonymous...oh...wait...I think some posters above already think so. 
Point taken?
S


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## reindeerlover (21 August 2010)

Shilasdair said:



			Next you'll be telling me that Britain and England are synonymous...oh...wait...I think some posters above already think so. 
Point taken?
S 

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They're not?? Who knew...

Most of the olde worlde attitude is similar however, you do still get Catholics in NI. Ah no, you did it the Republican in me is coming out!!


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## Meg2 (21 August 2010)

SusieT said:



			I have to say I found the article very demeaning to the Irish and generally written by someone with too much of a *dare I say it* fluffy stance.
Certainly there were some horror stories but there was no real attempt to dig deeper than surface level or put much of substance into the article. I found it very boring and not worth the paper it was written on. 
Don't forget however, if you want the Irish to stop breeding you will lose some of the wonderful irish hunters, sport horses etc. that are often very much prized in Britain.
		
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Exactly!
The welfare problem here is complex. A large number of welfare cases are urban horses owned by children that change hands for pittance and are abandoned, neglected and become victims of thugs. Legislation and enforcement of the passport requirement are needed to address this. Another significant factor is the mass production of the Irish TB industry. Some of these fall into the wrong hands and suffer hugely. While the sport horse breeders are undoubtedly suffering from the demise of the celtic tiger, these horses, that may have appeal to the UK market are less likely to fall through the cracks and end up as welfare cases.
However, buying horses from Ireland purely to help Ireland's welfare problems thus creating a false market is dubious to say the least!


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## TinyTrigger (21 August 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			It's the sub-standard mares put to the nearest stallion whether he's any good or not - or suits the mare or not!  It's youngsters reared in sub-standard conditions -rarely seeing a foot trim or a wormer before being roughly backed too young and flogged over here!

THIS -would you believe it - was a VERY well bred IDSH mare I bought from Ireland a few years ago.







She'd SJ at 4, obviously something went wrong and she bred a few foals -none of which can be tracked because she was never named.  That was her at 10 when I bought her for peanuts!  She was even thinner than she looks in that pic, covered in weather scald, feet were horrendous!!  And yes, I bought her from a breeder - not a 'James Grey' type dealer!  And bought a couple of other stunning youngsters from the same man - a 2 year old who was untouched (literally); a stunning, well-bred 4 year old WBxISH with breeding to DIE for - poor as a crow, weather scald, feet like a Brook rescue!
		
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If people stopped buying the poorly broken, badly conditioned horses to get a bargain then there would be no market for them and therefore no demand, no supply. Why did YOU buy that mare ? Or the other two ? Because you got them for 'Peanuts'. There are reputable dealers selling horses with impeccable breeding that are fabulously handled and kept - why not go to them.. although they'll most certainly cost more than those skinny, unhandled jobs  

I see the beautifully bred, poorly cared for and badly broken sorts most days in my job as I live in Ireland and work in the horse industry and I totally agree that people have got to stop breeding sub-standard horses to the 'stallion down the road' and I agree that standards should be upped on the breaking/care front.

Horses here are generally leaner and the Irish are generally less worried about whether they are groomed to the hilt as long as they are straight and do the job  It's some dealers (and private vendors) that sour the barrel for all of us by having their horses in an outright state.Please do not tar us all with that brush.

I personally know a huge amount of dealers in this country including - very near to me - potentially the biggest dealer in Ireland. Not that many dealers have horses in a 'James Grey' state (certainly no more than in the UK - I lived there for 15 years and saw plenty of horrors) - and if they do, it's not the Irish that buy them - it's the UK buyers and why ? They are a bargain.  

This is the other side to this situation. Everyday I come across people looking for a bargain.. they want that beautifully bred ISH/RID for cheap money and they buy the horses that are poorly kept/badly broken - because they are cheap. They wouldn't get that horse at the money they have if it was beautifully turned out etc. I don't deal with those people - I don't want to be in that trade. 

I see it time and time again with some of the well known dealers in the UK. They buy physically poor, badly shod, under schooled horses here for under &#8364;1500. Feed them, clip them, school them a little more and suddenly they are 6k. There .. right there.. is your demand. And where there is a demand there will be a supply. 

Then there are the breeders - they buy broodmares with great lines that look like rubbish - cheaply. Why not buy a mare with similar breeding that is from a reputable source ?? Because it'll cost more. 

The producers and breeders I see and use are struggling against this - they are producing quality, well schooled horses but they are more expensive and in this climate the cheaper ones are the ones that sell at sales etc. 

Stop buying those cheap skinny badly produced horses people! You are part of perpetuating the cycle!


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## Rathlee (21 August 2010)

SusieT said:



			Don't forget however, if you want the Irish to stop breeding you will lose some of the wonderful irish hunters, sport horses etc. that are often very much prized in Britain.
		
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The Dublin Horse Show had lots of buyers for the UK market searching amongst the best of Irish bred for the UK and listening Robert Oliver at his session, he will tell you the majority of the Show Hunters in the UK lineup are Irish-bred. 



JanetGeorge said:



			No-one wants the Irish to STOP breeding - just to stop excessive and irresponsible breeding.
		
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Everyone here (in Ireland) wants the same thing too - but I fear even with the drop of mares in foal this year and last year it is still not enough to get us out of the awful situation that is coming this Winter.

The welfare problem in Ireland is colossal right now and if you want to understand the issues you can read this report on it http://www.ucd.ie/t4cms/ucd equine welfare-web secure.pdf

Very sad situation - there are many very well bred horses who will never reach any potential due to the economics. It's not all trash getting abandoned - plenty of good horses are falling out of homes.


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## TallyHo123 (21 August 2010)

Very very well said!


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## TinyTrigger (21 August 2010)

Rathlee said:



			Very sad situation - there are many very well bred horses who will never reach any potential due to the economics. It's not all trash getting abandoned - plenty of good horses are falling out of homes.
		
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Very sad  I am seeing fewer foals this year than ever before but still.. I still see people breeding their only mediocre mares to mediocre stallions 'for when they are 3 year olds and the market has picked up' 

**headdesk** Idiots!! 

And who will suffer the consequences of these regardless, ill-thought out breeding 'programs' .. the horses. Many of which will suffer badly from lack of feed/care. It's horrific and uneccessary. 

Shamefully I think a cull is sensible idea. Some kind of factory amnesty sort of idea. It makes me  but a humanely killed horse can't die slowly and awfully from malnutrition on a cold mountainside somewhere.


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## Rathlee (21 August 2010)

TinyTrigger - the equine cull was being discussed by the Dept of Agriculture in June but I'm not sure of the outcome. Sad but realistically necessary.

I dread what we are going to witness this winter.


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## silu (21 August 2010)

Totally agree with Tinytrigger, there are plenty of very mediocre, that is being poilte, dealers around here who are selling poor Irish and even worse Dutch horses. There are far too may people wanting superstars for a couple of quid  which feeds the demand for bad breeding etc. When their "superstar" turns out to be what they paid for it, it is then disposed of and the merry go round continues.


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## JanetGeorge (21 August 2010)

Rowreach said:



			I was in England last week and a friend of mine says she simply cannot find quality big horses any more, so what are you English breeders producing then?
		
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Mybe your friend isn't looking in the right places.  Can't speak for other breeders but I am producing pure IDs with plenty of bone (my stallion has just over 10" of good flat bone and none of my RID brood mares have less than 9" - bar one.)  And once they're backed and hacking quietly they tend to jump off the shelf!

The biggest problem for most breeders at present is people aren't buying yearlings and 2 yo's to 'put away' as they did in the past!  Running them on and backing them means you end up with a LOT of horses on the ground - and a big delay before any return.

I had 13 foals this year - 10 pure bred and 3 SH.  Yearlings: I have 4 pure-bred fillies/1 colt and 2 SH left;  in 2 yo's - 5 pure-bred fillies to be graded this year, 1 SH filly, 2 pure-bred colts (outcross lines),1 pure-bred gelding, and 2 SH geldings.  I've managed to sell one yealing colt and 1 BIG pure-bred 3 year old (unbacked) this year - the rest of my sales have been 3 and 4 year olds - backed!  I've just sold a smaller backed 3yo, and have a BIG 3 year old pure-bred gelding (16.3 now) just hacking out quietly - who'll sell as fast as I advertise him, and 3 x 3 yo SH fillies, who'll sell just as quickly.  But I struggle to shift yearlings and 2 year olds  - and I need to sell some at least at that age to keep numbers at a manageable level!

And every 2nd buyer wants a 4-5 year old - properly produced and expects to get them for £3-4,000!  You CAN'T breed a nice foal, keep it properly for 4 years, back it and school it - and then sell it for £4,000!  The sums just don't add up!  But because there are a lot of cheap horses around (and cheap for a reason!) people expect you to practically give away a nice youngster who has had a LOT of time and money spent on him!  Thankfully there are still some buyers around who want a properly produced youngster (3-4 yo) with no ifs and buts about him, and are prepared to pay a realistic price!


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## Tharg (21 August 2010)

Shilasdair said:



			Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland are the same aren't they?
S 

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  *Sharp intake of breath*

  The article lacked substance and had a bunny hugger feel to it.  Bit of a rush job?


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## Dizzle (21 August 2010)

Shilasdair said:



			Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland are the same aren't they?
S 

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Where's Southern Ireland???


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## Mocha (21 August 2010)

TinyTrigger said:



			If people stopped buying the poorly broken, badly conditioned horses to get a bargain then there would be no market for them and therefore no demand, no supply. Why did YOU buy that mare ? Or the other two ? Because you got them for 'Peanuts'. There are reputable dealers selling horses with impeccable breeding that are fabulously handled and kept - why not go to them.. although they'll most certainly cost more than those skinny, unhandled jobs  

I see it time and time again with some of the well known dealers in the UK. 

*They buy physically poor, badly shod, under schooled horses here for under 1500. Feed them, clip them, school them a little more and suddenly they are 6k. There .. right there.. is your demand. And where there is a demand there will be a supply. *


The producers and breeders I see and use are struggling against this - they are producing quality, well schooled horses but they are more expensive and in this climate the cheaper ones are the ones that sell at sales etc. 

Stop buying those cheap skinny badly produced horses people! You are part of perpetuating the cycle!
		
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Absolutely spot on.

What a poor article, its advocating pretty much the exact same thing that fueled this situation in the first place!!


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## Shilasdair (21 August 2010)

Dizzle said:



			Where's Southern Ireland???
		
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I think it makes up 'Britain' together with England?
S


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## JanetGeorge (21 August 2010)

TinyTrigger said:



			If people stopped buying the poorly broken, badly conditioned horses to get a bargain then there would be no market for them and therefore no demand, no supply. Why did YOU buy that mare ? Or the other two ? Because you got them for 'Peanuts'. There are reputable dealers selling horses with impeccable breeding that are fabulously handled and kept - why not go to them.. although they'll most certainly cost more than those skinny, unhandled jobs 

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Because I was buying to school and sell on - and at that time, the prices for well produced horses was too high to allow any chance of making a little profit!  The poor old mare I bought because - when my agent sent me photos - I felt incredibly sorry for her!  She deserved better!

This was her just before we sold her:







I don't have a 'before' pic of the stunning SH - but this is how he looks now!







And this is the little chap when he arrived - it was 8 weeks before the farrier could trim his back feet! (Probably for the first time in his 4 years of 'life'!







And just before we sold him (and he's still with the same owner 5 years later!)











			It's some dealers (and private vendors) that sour the barrel for all of us by having their horses in an outright state.Please do not tar us all with that brush.
		
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Oh I don't.  I bought two of my best brood mares from Ireland - from a very reputable breeder - and they arrived looking fantastic.    But the chap I bought my waifs and strays from was also - allegedly - a 'reputable' breeder.




			it's the UK buyers and why ? They are a bargain.
		
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With hindsight, only two of the eight horses I bought back then from the 'reputable' breeder WERE bargains!  One - a very wild and unhandled 2 yo RID gelding by Grange Bouncer - who I was able to 'tame' and sell quickly for a modest profit (to a very good home); and the chestnut sport horse (although I still have him and will probably NEVER sell him! )  The rest cost a LOT of time and money to get right and were sold for WAY below that cost!  I suppose they saved me money in the long run as I decided that I was FAR too soft and honest to 'deal'!




			Stop buying those cheap skinny badly produced horses people! You are part of perpetuating the cycle!
		
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Don't worry - I've stopped!!  Although I don't feel badly about giving those particular horses a better life and a good chance for a future!  I wish I could afford to do it big-time.  But other people do - and now I just take on other people's mistakes and try to help those horses meet their owners' needs - so they WILL have a future - without bankrupting me!


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## Tharg (21 August 2010)

Dizzle said:



			Where's Southern Ireland???
		
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  Cork or Kerry


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## Holly Hocks (21 August 2010)

Personally I don't understand what the problem is with a cull and why there is such an outcry over it all of a sudden .The same thing happens over here all the time with the TB racing industry - especially those bred for flat racing.  Many are shot at birth or before they even go into training as they are not deemed "good enough", or born with minor defects, or just because there are too many of them to be sold. Rather than have the outcry over something happening in Ireland, why not start over here at home. 

And please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is an Irish Sports Horse?  It doesn't appear in any books I have about breed types, but they are all about 20 year old.  Is a Sports horse a "type" rather than a breed and what makes one so special?


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## Rathlee (22 August 2010)

Tharg said:



			Cork or Kerry
		
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Good!


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## JanetGeorge (22 August 2010)

Rebelzmum said:



			And please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is an Irish Sports Horse?  It doesn't appear in any books I have about breed types, but they are all about 20 year old.  Is a Sports horse a "type" rather than a breed and what makes one so special?
		
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These days, it's almost anything!   In the good old days, it was an IDxTB - and the best eventers were of this cross.  Nowadays, it's as likely to be a Warmblood -perhaps crossed onto an IDxTB mare.  Horse Sport Ireland has 'approved' stallions of many different European breeds to be used in the production of the 'Irish Sport Horse'.  Some of them have no ID blood at all.  They are effectively a 'type' rather than a breed - and HSI is onlycopying the European stud books who regularly 'approve' horses of other breeds into their stud books.

I have an Irish Sport horse - by a KWPN-graded stallion who is actully 'pure' Selle Francais; and out of an ISH mare of the old sort!

In the UK, we breed the ID SH - must be at LEAST 25% Irish Draught - the rest usually TB or Native.


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## Paddydou (23 August 2010)

I really don't think buying from Ireland is the answer to their problems. The problem has been getting worse in recent years. 

I think part of it is that the British like to see the Irish as their "brother" and simply doesn't recognise that in general the Irish tend to suffer less from sentiment than we do. These are of course sweeping generalisations but Britian has long been known as a nation of animal lovers. Ireland has long been know as a producer of animals for both racing and other equestrian sports. 

The problem of kids on estates are getting hold of horses and really not looking after them properly is decades old. Partly through lack of education and partly through indifference. This problem is not new. What is new is the reccession. More owners having to give up their pets in order to be able to feed themselves.

There is simply not the money to spend or throw around on frivolities in this day and age. This started with the massive boom in the housing market which simply could not sustain itself. Horses are in effect an expensive frivolity. Much as I hate saying that, as to me they are as essential as food and shelter, they are not an absolute requirement to sustain human life.

The horse world needs to start waking up to the fact that our economic markets affect the equestrian industry as well. Anyone who watches the housing market (great because what happens usually happens there first!) will have predicted the crash. 

I really do not see how the UK can possibly help Ireland if we can not find the homes for the horses we have. I do not think that English (used to sweep British, Welsh and Scotish into the same bracket) purchasers woudl nescessarily get any better by buying a beet up 'oss and rescuing it from Ireland than if they did the same here. The recession is not going to go away quickly. Our government needs to slash public spending and public employment to start getting the out goings to match the incomings. Its not going to happen over night. It will take years, just as it did last time under Thatcher. (lets just not make the same mistake again and vote labour back in as soon as it starts looking better!).

On the arguments about breeding personally I would like to see less and for it to be much more selective. While I do not want to stop the "home breeder" who has a nice mare and puts it to a nice stalion for something to keep, I really think that many breeders would be far better off quitting now while they are ahead or doing something else for a while. 

I believe that the next few years are going to be a very tough wake up call for everyone.


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## chris london (24 August 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			The biggest problem for most breeders at present is people aren't buying yearlings and 2 yo's to 'put away' as they did in the past!  Running them on and backing them means you end up with a LOT of horses on the ground - and a big delay before any return.

And here we have the problem in a nutshell. The Industry for that is what it is, has not realised that the recession would have any effect on it. This is true especially in Ireland where for a number of years we had the "Tiger" economy. People where prepared to pay silly money for a horse and as many of them had little or no knowledge many of those horses were of poor quality.

This is the rub..... The breeders and dealers have;

1 Got lazy.
2 Got greedy. 

Lazy as they are looking for a quick turn around and want to put the least amount of work into turning out a good quality animal. And greedy because they expect to still get the silly prices of two to three years ago.

I have come across a number of dealers who have horses who are bordering on the malnourished. However rather than sell them on perhaps for a loss are still holding out for big money. Money that is no longer there. 

Through the boom times a large number of new blood came into the industry. A large number of these did not realise that the money does not stop once you have purchased your animal. That is only the beginning! Now money is not so free and easy a very high percentage are looking to get out of the game. However after investing what was a large amount of money they are looking for a return on their investment. 

As was said earlier house prices have decreased but up to 30% and are forecast to fall even further. If this is what is happening to a commodity that is an essential what should be happening to something that can be said is a luxury.

We have a responsibility to as an industry not to over produce for if we do all that happens is as now and we are left with taking action such as a cull in the name of compassion.

What a large number of dealers and breeders are just realising too many horses on the ground are no longer assets but rather liabilities.
		
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## pip6 (25 August 2010)

Surely if you provide a market by buying up the unwanted, overproduction then you continue to fuel said market. Whilst there is any money to be made, then horses will continue to be produced. I don't see H&H calling for countries to bail out their neighbours regarding overproduction. Quality will always sell, & retain a decent value. Surely it is up to any country to put their own house in order rather than relying on someone else? I do part own an ISH (for the past 4 years), but she is a very high quality animal & was bought for her own merits & no other reason.

ps she is by an ID SH out of a TB, so 7/8 TB, 1/8 ID.


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## spaniel (25 August 2010)

I do find it slightly irksome that HH can instigate a discussion and actively encourage people to bail out overgreedy substandard production from Ireland yet any mention of the Franch situation is met with bannings and gaggings.


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## Doncella (25 August 2010)

If we were on the Continent we would not be having this discussion, everything surplus to requirements would have gone into the food chain.  Sometimes we do have to be a little less sentimental and wouldn't it be a good idea to reintroduce the Man from the Ministry?  28 days geld it or shoot it.
Over breeding and importing of both quality and ropey animals has got out of hand and not only in Ireland.
I read in a horse magazine a while ago about a rescue gone wrong, girl bought a hopelessly crippled animal out of pity, spent hundreds on him only to be told that this was the worst case of navicular the vet had ever seen. Horse PTS there and then.  This animal was a papered, branded, imported Holstein and from the photgraphs he had the most disgraceful conformation I have ever seen.  He was a navicular case waiting to happen. Yet he was papered and branded.  Basically he was palmed off onto a UK market seen as a mug for poor standard warmbloods which like the mythical ISH apparently have some cache, posh for must have status.


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## TinyTrigger (26 August 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			Because I was buying to school and sell on - and at that time, the prices for well produced horses was too high to allow any chance of making a little profit!  !
		
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Exactly  You bought the cheap horses that were badly produced to make a better margin. Nothing wrong with wanting a good margin - it's good business sense but then you cannot complain about the quantity of poorly kept, badly broken horses when there is a market for them. As long as there is a market - there is a supply  

I don't think that will ever change tbh. 





JanetGeorge said:



			But the chap I bought my waifs and strays from was also - allegedly - a 'reputable' breeder.:
		
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Then your contacts are either giving you the wrong information or you bought the bottom of the barrel that he bought in (with a job lot usually) looking like that. 





JanetGeorge said:



			I was FAR too soft and honest to 'deal'!:
		
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The age old stereotype that all dealer are hard, dishonest people - as usual perpetuated by those who have a superior attitude to dealers and those who sour it for every one else. As I said above.. perhaps you were led to believe this breeder/dealer was 'reputable' and tbh..

If the colt was unhandled/wild and had never been touched then why was he so hard to deal with ??  I see the results of 'wild' and unhandled horses here and they are usually easier.. not harder.. as they have no preconceptions of humans. Eothain on here had a fabulous SJ that came of a mountain totally wild as a 4yo (I think it was 4 - wasn't a young 2/3yo anyway) .. 





JanetGeorge said:



			Don't worry - I've stopped!!
		
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## Paddydou (26 August 2010)

I am not totally understanding of why people are giving JanetGeorge a tough time because she brought a couple of cheap horses and gave them a better time of it and sold them on to nice homes. 

I am sure I would have done the same in the same position. There are going to be thousands of horses on both sides of the pond who are going to suffer. Thankfully in the UK we are more sentimental and as such our horses will probably suffer less than those in Ireland as a result. 

Yes buying cheap, under nourished horses is politically incorrect but I tell you now if I had the money I would. Simply to give them a better chance rather than have them be totally destroyed both physically and mentally by those who do not care as much. 

This may exacerbate the problem but look from the other side. Once the people selling poor quality horses realise that the horse itself could fetch far more as well fed, looked after and trained then their behaviour will change!

I don't think JanetGeorge should be facing the wrath of so many because she has been honest and spoken of her experiences. 

last time I was buying it broke my heart to see so many with sores, badly fitting tack, under weight, hit for no reason this list is endless. If I could have brought every single one of them I would have. I still feel particularly guilty about one I "left behind". Poor sod I can only hope and pray that he found a better home.


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## BBH (26 August 2010)

I don't think JanetGeorge is being wrathed at but she's shot herself in the foot. 

Her post is clearly a rant against H & H's view on encouraging people to ' buy Irish ' and then later she goes on to say she has done exactly that, bought two horses from Ireland in a poor state to make some money. Pot kettle black and all that.

I think most of us agree the only way to stop the volume of unwanted horses / ponies is to stop producing foals from poor stock in large volumes with no buyer at the end of the chain , and that goes for production here and in any country. 

Until people consider the welfare of the animals over the welfare of their bank balances it will never change.


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## JanetGeorge (26 August 2010)

TinyTrigger said:



			but then you cannot complain about the quantity of poorly kept, badly broken horses when there is a market for them.
		
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Actually, I wasn't.  My OP was a complaint about H&H TELLING people to rush to Ireland for a horse - to help solve the Irish welfare problem!




			Then your contacts are either giving you the wrong information or you bought the bottom of the barrel that he bought in ...
		
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The information was good -and verified.  The very poor horses were ones which didn't respond well to his management 'style'.  A few others I bought from the same person WERE in good condition. I bought the poor ones because I saw 'potential' for them to be much nicer - and knew I could turn them around.




			The age old stereotype that all dealer are hard, dishonest people - as usual perpetuated by those who have a superior attitude to dealers and those who sour it for every one else.
		
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Sadly, it's NOT a stereotype - large number of them are!  I get some of their 'produce' sent here for re-schooling, I have also acted as an 'expert witness' for Trading Standards investigating certain dealers.  There ARE some reputable dealers around -but sadly they're a small minority!




			If the colt was unhandled/wild and had never been touched then why was he so hard to deal with ??  I see the results of 'wild' and unhandled horses here and they are usually easier.. not harder.. as they have no preconceptions of humans.
		
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He was barely touched by normal standards - but the 'touching' had left its mark.  He was easy to get 'handled' - but even 12 months on his LACK of early handling meant his instinctive fear (the predator on back syndrome)made him harder to back than a well-handled youngsterbecause his 'flight' response was much stronger.


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## JanetGeorge (26 August 2010)

LHS said:



			I don't think JanetGeorge is being wrathed at but she's shot herself in the foot. 

Her post is clearly a rant against H & H's view on encouraging people to ' buy Irish ' and then later she goes on to say she has done exactly that, bought two horses from Ireland in a poor state to make some money. Pot kettle black and all that.
		
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I don't think so!  I actually bought 7 horses from Ireland (5 years ago) with a view to schooling and selling on.  I learnt from my mistake:  if I'd bought WELL produced horses there would have been NO margin; buying poorly produced horses didn'tgive a margineither because ittook too long and cost too much to produce them to a point where I was prepared to sell them safe, well mannered, good condition etc.)  On another occasion I bought 2 very nice and well-produced ID mares with bloodlines I wanted and couldn'tfind here - and paid top money for them!




			I think most of us agree the only way to stop the volume of unwanted horses / ponies is to stop producing foals from poor stock in large volumes with no buyer at the end of the chain , and that goes for production here and in any country.
		
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Couldn't agree more!

[/QUOTE]


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## BBH (26 August 2010)

So if you have bought from Ireland,  why are you upset that H & H are encouraging others to do the same ?


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## Tinkerbee (26 August 2010)

Bloody foreigners...coming over here, buying our horses...


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## rosie fronfelen (26 August 2010)

Shilasdair said:



			I think it makes up 'Britain' together with England?
S 

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Northern Ireland makes up part of Britain, Southern Ireland is separate from the rest of Ireland-dont you know the countries making up Britain?


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## JanetGeorge (26 August 2010)

LHS said:



			So if you have bought from Ireland,  why are you upset that H & H are encouraging others to do the same ?
		
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Because of the reasoning!!!  If people want to buy from Ireland - whether it's because they think they can get a better horse, or a cheaper horse, or bloodlines that aren't available here - then good luck to them!

What I OBJECT to is H&H running a story playing on people's emotions about horse welfare in Ireland - and trying to PUSH people into rushing over to buy a horse there to bail the Irish market out!  UK breeders are facing the same problems with the current market as the Irish - although perhaps not as bad (yet) as I THINK there is less indiscriminate breeding here.  But even good quality youngstock are being discounted by studs who have run out of space/grass after this summer's severe drought in many areas.  By the time winter gets here there could be some serious welfare issues arising here if breeders can't sell horses.

It's another version of the French rescue horses - please rush over to France and buy a horse who is almost certainly unsound or has temperament problems,  because it's being fattened up for the meat market and will be killed next week if some nice English mug doesn't buy it!  And in the meantime, much nicer, sounder, older horses here are probably going to be put down because their owners can't keep them and they can't sell them (or even GIVE them away to a suitable home!)


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## joeanne (26 August 2010)

chris london said:



			This is the rub..... The breeders and dealers have;

1 Got lazy.
2 Got greedy. 

Lazy as they are looking for a quick turn around and want to put the least amount of work into turning out a good quality animal. And greedy because they expect to still get the silly prices of two to three years ago.
		
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A bit unfair do you not think?
A well bred, quality horse that has been bred for a purpose is not going to have been a £50 covering is it? Then factor in vets fee's, passporting, DNA testing (in some cases), keep for 4 years min.....you think the breeder should give that animal away for the bargain price of a couple of £k?
GOOD breeders put a HUGE amount of work into their youngstock. Unfair to tar all with the same brush!


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## Tinkerbee (26 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Northern Ireland makes up part of Britain, Southern Ireland is separate from the rest of Ireland-dont you know the countries making up Britain?
		
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Actually, if we're being pedantic Britain is England, Scotland and Wales.
United Kingdom includes Northern Ireland.
And the British Isles includes Southern Ireland as well....


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## rosie fronfelen (26 August 2010)

nit -picking!!


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## marmalade76 (26 August 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			In the UK, we breed the ID SH - must be at LEAST 25% Irish Draught - the rest usually TB or Native.
		
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JG, if I'm ever in the position to have a youngster again I will certainly give you a call, I don't want anything tainted with any warmblood! Would be lovely to have something with Uibh Fhaili in it's pedigree, the horse I lost recently was by him and he really was a super chap.


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## JanetGeorge (27 August 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			Would be lovely to have something with Uibh Fhaili in it's pedigree, the horse I lost recently was by him and he really was a super chap.
		
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Now as it happens, the two GOOD mares I imported from Ireland were a Uibh Fhaili '81 mare and her then 3 year old daughter by Grey Macha!  And I now have another daughter of the Uibh Fhaili '81 mare (by my stallion) infoal for next year to the wonderful Avanti Amorous Archie!  AND a 2 year old son of the Uibh Fhaili mare,and a 2 year old grand-daughter,and a rather stunning baby grand-daughter too!


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## marmalade76 (27 August 2010)

Fancy that! 

Piccies please!


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## Tinkerbee (27 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			nit -picking!!
		
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You started it


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## rosie fronfelen (27 August 2010)

go away.


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## Eothain (30 August 2010)

I'm only after coming across this topic but I can't actually believe what I'm reading. I'm appaled that some people find it so easy to make a generalisation that most Irish people are dirty, rotten cowboys with little regard for their horses well being who are trying to trick the British buyers.

How dare you. Don't then turn around and say you know _some_ breeders who do a good job on their stock but for the most part we're not to be trusted.

The fact of the matter is this, the vast majority of breeders in this country want their stock to go on well and make some body happy regardless of if it's a happy hacker or someone who wants to follow hounds across whatever terrain they meet or an owner who wants to see their investment go around Hickstead or Badminton.

The vast majority of breeders do not want to continue a cycle of a declining standard of a small sector of the horse industry in this country because rest assured, the only news that will be reported is the news of the Welfare crisis. For the most part, the general standard is stoic. Thanks in no small way to our amazing European counterparts and the use of AI, the declining standard of our showjumpers is beginning to bottom out and with more use of the amazing warmblood stallions available to us, we'll start to see the ISH return to its former relevance once more. Now for sure, there'll be less scopeless ID breeding in the pedigrees but I'm not going to get in to that here. There's a rather large topic covering my opinion and the opinion of others on the future of the ISH in the breeding section. For anyone who hasn't seen it, be sure to check it out, the facts involved speak for themselves.

The fact is this, there's plenty of reputable agents, dealers and breeders in Ireland who are only too happy to try and find you the horse or indeed horses you're looking for. It's not the Irish equestrian public's fault that a lot of foreign buyers keep getting lammpooned with some of the bad eggs that are out there.

You can be guaranteed that anybody who buys a horse out of my yard will have a horse that I will gladly stand over who will come with a full dna proven pedigree provided I knew it in the first place and could get it dnaed. I've spent roughly the guts of three grand proving pedigrees over the last four years or so. Only three of the forty odd horses in my care have no pedigrees and you can rest assured that the pedigrees are not a case of "What do you want him by?". The very thought that that happened sickens me much like the much publicised over production of horses in Ireland. It's not that bad a place. Yes, a lot of horses will be canned but such is life. It's not the general Irish equestrian public's fault that in the boom years every butcher, baker and candle stick maker wanted to get in to the thoroughbred sector and as a result, we have a huge number of unwanted horses.

There is a silver lining however, because of this trend of thoroughbreds flooding the leisure markets and the super safe leisure horses being tougher to sell, the Industry is awake and I'm fairly confident that hap hazard breeding has had it's day in Ireland but we have to sort out the National Herd over the next few years. Just like any business that has to survive the recession, this is merely a rectification of mis-management during the good times.

We will not wear the Dunce hat in the corner, no one in the country wants a case of Spindles Farm over here. Do not make it out that we don't care about our animals. I'm not asking, I'm telling you. Do not make it out that we don't care about our animals. We breed the best Eventers in the World. Thanks to the Warmblood influence, we will breed the best Showjumpers in the World again. We have the World's best native pony, the Connemara. There is more good than bad, you'd do well to remember that.

If you want an ISH but don't want to get burned by the few dodgey dealers about town, there's plenty of good people out there who can't wait to bid you;
Cead Mile Failte


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## Halfstep (30 August 2010)

Eothain, go raibh mile maith agat. 

I am Irish living in the UK, and am, frankly, gobsmacked at some of the attitudes that this thread has revealed. 

And I think you are absolutely correct about the future of Irish breeding. We will be the very best again, the quality is there and the knowledge is there, it just needs focus and drive - which you obviously have in spades .


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## Mocha (30 August 2010)

Paddydou said:



			Thankfully in the UK we are more sentimental and as such our horses will probably suffer less than those in Ireland as a result.
		
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Ah, if only sentiment could feed and care for a horse!





			Yes buying cheap, under nourished horses is politically incorrect but I tell you now if I had the money I would. Simply to give them a better chance rather than have them be totally destroyed both physically and mentally by those who do not care as much. 

This may exacerbate the problem but look from the other side. Once the people selling poor quality horses realise that the horse itself could fetch far more as well fed, looked after and trained then their behaviour will change!
		
Click to expand...

Why not buy the cheap, undernourished from your own country??!

What you are advocating is exactly the same as the people paying extortionate amounts for meat horses in france.... it only fuels the trade! 

Did these horses situations eventually improve? No. They ended up sitting in holding lots, starving, waiting for misguided UK buyers to stump up their transport costs, instead of a quick clean bullet.

Not to mention those that made it on the long journey to the UK, how many have you since heard about that had to be rehomed because their new well-meaning owners couldn't handle them?

That whole situation was so pathetic, it was even picked up on here. There are still a number of small dealers down south with cold-bloods bought in from the european meat trade. Though it was a phase that quickly dried up.

Once again, where there is demand, there will be supply.

And for you information, the well fed, well cared for horses aren't making money. So where is this incentive you are talking about??


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## JanetGeorge (31 August 2010)

Mocha said:



			And for you information, the well fed, well cared for horses aren't making money.
		
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TELL me about it!  I came in tonight to a phone message from someone wanting to buy two filly foals - had to be ID sport horses to make 16.1+ and suitable for eventing!

As it happens I HAVE two such fillies, out TBx mares who both evented and hunted themselves.  Good news????

No!  The message was:  she was only prepared to pay £1,200 for the two!  Hell, I can't put fillies like that on the ground for £600 - let alone rear them well.  I WAS going to ring her back and say: "if you find anyone desperate enough to sell a decent ID SH filly foal for £600 at weaning, PLEASE let me know and I'll buy them - it would be cheaper than breeding them!"


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## nativetyponies (31 August 2010)

Doncella said:



			If we were on the Continent we would not be having this discussion, everything surplus to requirements would have gone into the food chain.  Sometimes we do have to be a little less sentimental and wouldn't it be a good idea to reintroduce the Man from the Ministry?  28 days geld it or shoot it.
Over breeding and importing of both quality and ropey animals has got out of hand and not only in Ireland.
I read in a horse magazine a while ago about a rescue gone wrong, girl bought a hopelessly crippled animal out of pity, spent hundreds on him only to be told that this was the worst case of navicular the vet had ever seen. Horse PTS there and then.  This animal was a papered, branded, imported Holstein and from the photgraphs he had the most disgraceful conformation I have ever seen.  He was a navicular case waiting to happen. Yet he was papered and branded.  Basically he was palmed off onto a UK market seen as a mug for poor standard warmbloods which like the mythical ISH apparently have some cache, posh for must have status.
		
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Well Put.


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## nativetyponies (31 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Northern Ireland makes up part of Britain, Southern Ireland is separate from the rest of Ireland-dont you know the countries making up Britain?
		
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what a surprise...rosie joins a thread and totally misses the gist of it..Again.


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## Baggybreeches (31 August 2010)

Doncella said:



			If we were on the Continent we would not be having this discussion, everything surplus to requirements would have gone into the food chain.  Sometimes we do have to be a little less sentimental and wouldn't it be a good idea to reintroduce the Man from the Ministry?  28 days geld it or shoot it.
		
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Absolutely, without exception! I have a decent enough ISH (3/4ID 1/4TB) mare, and I went to the time and effort to present her for grading, she passed her grading with decent marks but I have yet to decide what to breed from her, originally I was thinking of looking towards eventing type of horse, but there's a declining market straight away. I am currently thinking of next year putting her to a pony stallion because I think the pony market will be very strong (cheaper and easier to keep, and much much easier to sell a good pony).


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## Paddydou (31 August 2010)

Eothain said:



			I'm only after coming across this topic but I can't actually believe what I'm reading. I'm appaled that some people find it so easy to make a generalisation that most Irish people are dirty, rotten cowboys with little regard for their horses well being who are trying to trick the British buyers.
Cead Mile Failte
		
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I believe that you may have misinterpreted what most have been saying. 

The equestrian market is flooded on both sides.

The equestrian world is struggling to care for its horses on both sides. 

There are always incedences on creulty on both sides. 

I believe the OP wanted to say "lets sort our own house out before we interfeer with anyone elses". 

Mocha - I know my sentiments would only fuel the trade hence I do not do it. And sadly I don't have the money (unless one of those old lotto tickets stuck to the fridge is actually a winner and I don't know about it) to be sentimental about it - thank god. I know that well fed well bred well trained etc horses are not making money at the moment - which is why this is all the more worrying... Supply and demand are out of synch at the moment.


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## rosie fronfelen (31 August 2010)

nativeponies said:



			what a surprise...rosie joins a thread and totally misses the gist of it..Again. 

Click to expand...

sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, NP,why are you so unpleasant, i got it wrong, so what? what have i done to you or is it in your nature??


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## TinyTrigger (31 August 2010)

Eothain said:



			I'm only after coming across this topic but I can't actually believe what I'm reading. I'm appaled that some people find it so easy to make a generalisation that most Irish people are dirty, rotten cowboys with little regard for their horses well being who are trying to trick the British buyers.

How dare you. Don't then turn around and say you know _some_ breeders who do a good job on their stock but for the most part we're not to be trusted.

The fact of the matter is this, the vast majority of breeders in this country want their stock to go on well and make some body happy regardless of if it's a happy hacker or someone who wants to follow hounds across whatever terrain they meet or an owner who wants to see their investment go around Hickstead or Badminton.

The vast majority of breeders do not want to continue a cycle of a declining standard of a small sector of the horse industry in this country because rest assured, the only news that will be reported is the news of the Welfare crisis. For the most part, the general standard is stoic. Thanks in no small way to our amazing European counterparts and the use of AI, the declining standard of our showjumpers is beginning to bottom out and with more use of the amazing warmblood stallions available to us, we'll start to see the ISH return to its former relevance once more. Now for sure, there'll be less scopeless ID breeding in the pedigrees but I'm not going to get in to that here. There's a rather large topic covering my opinion and the opinion of others on the future of the ISH in the breeding section. For anyone who hasn't seen it, be sure to check it out, the facts involved speak for themselves.

The fact is this, there's plenty of reputable agents, dealers and breeders in Ireland who are only too happy to try and find you the horse or indeed horses you're looking for. It's not the Irish equestrian public's fault that a lot of foreign buyers keep getting lammpooned with some of the bad eggs that are out there.

You can be guaranteed that anybody who buys a horse out of my yard will have a horse that I will gladly stand over who will come with a full dna proven pedigree provided I knew it in the first place and could get it dnaed. I've spent roughly the guts of three grand proving pedigrees over the last four years or so. Only three of the forty odd horses in my care have no pedigrees and you can rest assured that the pedigrees are not a case of "What do you want him by?". The very thought that that happened sickens me much like the much publicised over production of horses in Ireland. It's not that bad a place. Yes, a lot of horses will be canned but such is life. It's not the general Irish equestrian public's fault that in the boom years every butcher, baker and candle stick maker wanted to get in to the thoroughbred sector and as a result, we have a huge number of unwanted horses.

There is a silver lining however, because of this trend of thoroughbreds flooding the leisure markets and the super safe leisure horses being tougher to sell, the Industry is awake and I'm fairly confident that hap hazard breeding has had it's day in Ireland but we have to sort out the National Herd over the next few years. Just like any business that has to survive the recession, this is merely a rectification of mis-management during the good times.

We will not wear the Dunce hat in the corner, no one in the country wants a case of Spindles Farm over here. Do not make it out that we don't care about our animals. I'm not asking, I'm telling you. Do not make it out that we don't care about our animals. We breed the best Eventers in the World. Thanks to the Warmblood influence, we will breed the best Showjumpers in the World again. We have the World's best native pony, the Connemara. There is more good than bad, you'd do well to remember that.

If you want an ISH but don't want to get burned by the few dodgey dealers about town, there's plenty of good people out there who can't wait to bid you;
Cead Mile Failte
		
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Halfstep said:



			Eothain, go raibh mile maith agat. 

I am Irish living in the UK, and am, frankly, gobsmacked at some of the attitudes that this thread has revealed. 

And I think you are absolutely correct about the future of Irish breeding. We will be the very best again, the quality is there and the knowledge is there, it just needs focus and drive - which you obviously have in spades .
		
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I agree with all of the above. 



Mocha said:



			Ah, if only sentiment could feed and care for a horse!

?
		
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If only..  

Seriously Paddydou ?? Seriously ???


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## TinyTrigger (31 August 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			Actually, I wasn't.  My OP was a complaint about H&H TELLING people to rush to Ireland for a horse - to help solve the Irish welfare problem!.
		
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Fairynuff. 




JanetGeorge said:



			The information was good -and verified.  The very poor horses were ones which didn't respond well to his management 'style'.  A few others I bought from the same person WERE in good condition. I bought the poor ones because I saw 'potential' for them to be much nicer - and knew I could turn them around..
		
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So he was a good dealer or not ? The dealers I use only have one 'management style' and that is too keep the horses as well as possible depending on what they each need. 




JanetGeorge said:



			Sadly, it's NOT a stereotype - large number of them are!  I get some of their 'produce' sent here for re-schooling, I have also acted as an 'expert witness' for Trading Standards investigating certain dealers.  There ARE some reputable dealers around -but sadly they're a small minority!.
		
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I work in the trade and while they are bad dealers there are a huge number of honest people who work hard to maintain their reputation, like Eothain. Perhaps you haven't come upon these people.. although they don't sell very cheap horses. We clearly work within different ends of the market. 





JanetGeorge said:



			He was barely touched by normal standards - but the 'touching' had left its mark.  He was easy to get 'handled' - but even 12 months on his LACK of early handling meant his instinctive fear (the predator on back syndrome)made him harder to back than a well-handled youngsterbecause his 'flight' response was much stronger.
		
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So he wasn't unhandled - he had been handled somehow and badly I assume from your post.. I thought you meant properly unhandled. The last horse I saw that was unhandled was just that  .. a wild as a goat 4yo colt straight off a mountain in Galway. Beautifully bred. Never even had a headcollar on - not been touched since he was weaned - and then he wasn't actually *touched* .. took him a week to get over humans. 2 to be perfect to lead. He's a cheeky chappy but gorgeous.


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## Tharg (1 September 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Northern Ireland makes up part of Britain, Southern Ireland is separate from the rest of Ireland-dont you know the countries making up Britain?
		
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   Southern Ireland as a country is an incorrect term, southern Ireland means Cork or Kerry!

   Use Ireland/Rep of Ireland/Eíre


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## perfect11s (1 September 2010)

Tharg said:



			Southern Ireland as a country is an incorrect term, southern Ireland means Cork or Kerry!

   Use Ireland/Rep of Ireland/Eíre
		
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 Ok so  northern Ireland  means Londonderry what should we call the rest of the bit in the top corner then???!!!!


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## Luci07 (1 September 2010)

Interesting thread. The one thing I would add is .... if you are going to reply, please take the time to read ALL the thread. I will pick on JG as this is her post - a lot of the responses have not actually read all the way through so she has ended up having to repeat herself a lot..

I am a big fan of the "true" ISH with no WB in sight. I have had a number of them and my current "keep" was imported as a 2 year old, kept then brought on. He wasn't a cheap buy either.  

The basic problem is with human nature - people always want a bargain, to a degree nothing wrong with that but its this desire which then creates a market. Having been a few more times around the block, I fully understand that the vendor has to make a profit too!

Oh and love the discussions about Northern v Southern Ireland. I have a very good GF from Dublin - we keep threatening to turn uip in union jack t'shirts for a night out with her...


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## Rathlee (1 September 2010)

What is being said here exactly?? the OP quoted H&H saying there is a welfare problem in Ireland due to overstocking and the Recession. You have all jumped on some bandwagon now of saying 'yes..'the Irish' are breeding substandard horses and are terrible horse-people'. Sub-standard bred horses were not mentioned in the original quote.. and we all hear of stories of neglect in BOTH Ireland and the UK (Amersham a case in point). So you should steady up with all your finger pointing. 

And amongst all this you haven't even the decency to acknowledge basic naming conventions such as Eire (or ROI "Republic of Ireland") instead you are making very ignorant remarks about very basic political geography.


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## Lark (1 September 2010)

Rathlee said:



			What is being said here exactly?? the OP quoted H&H saying there is a welfare problem in Ireland due to overstocking and the Recession. You have all jumped on some bandwagon now of saying 'yes..'the Irish' are breeding substandard horses and are terrible horse-people'. Sub-standard bred horses were not mentioned in the original quote.. and we all hear of stories of neglect in BOTH Ireland and the UK (Amersham a case in point). So you should steady up with all your finger pointing. 

And amongst all this you haven't even the decency to acknowledge basic naming conventions such as Eire (or ROI "Republic of Ireland") instead you are making very ignorant remarks about very basic political geography.
		
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Thank you Rathlee...you have just saved me some typing.


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## Lark (1 September 2010)

Paddydou said:



			I think part of it is that the British like to see the Irish as their "brother" and simply doesn't recognise that in general the Irish tend to suffer less from sentiment than we do.
		
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Paddydou said:



			. Thankfully in the UK we are more sentimental and as such our horses will probably suffer less than those in Ireland as a result.
		
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I cannot express how much these pompous sanctimonious throw away remarks offend me.


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## spaniel (1 September 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddydou  
. Thankfully in the UK we are more sentimental and as such our horses will probably suffer less than those in Ireland as a result.  

I cannot express how much these pompous sanctimonious throw away remarks offend me. 

Its not verbatum but this was alluded to in the HH article in all fairness.


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## Lark (1 September 2010)

spaniel said:



			Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddydou  
. Thankfully in the UK we are more sentimental and as such our horses will probably suffer less than those in Ireland as a result.  

I cannot express how much these pompous sanctimonious throw away remarks offend me. 

Its not verbatum but this was alluded to in the HH article in all fairness.
		
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Unfortunately even if this was alluded to in the H&H column the premise has been adopted and driven home by many of the contributers to this thread.  Being Irish and a life long owner/producer/breeder/competitor and animal lover!! it is very difficult to honestly credit the delusional misconceptions people have demonstrated on this thread in relation to Ireland/Irish and their horses. Of course there are serious welfare issues both in Ireland and England which need to be tackled head on.
However, to generalise can only serve to offend those of us who sacrifice time, money, relationships, blood, sweat and tears to ensure that our horses have the best possible quality of life and the best possible chance in life.
And with respect I have yet to see any equally denigrating thread on any Irish forums villifying the treatment of horses by English people following the horrors of Amersham...the man certainly..but not the Nation.


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## kit279 (1 September 2010)

I think it would be fair to say that over-breeding happens in every place that is known for producing horses.  The wastage is always high - the difference is that in less developed less wealthy countries, there just isn't the money to be sentimental about the welfare.  The UK has a relatively large middle class population who have (or had!) money to spend on their pets.  Somewhere like Argentina - if the horse isn't earning its keep, it's shot - end of.

OP, I would seriously hope that people who really want to buy youngstock don't pick up the H&H and do blindly as they say!   Buying Irish horses used to be a way of getting a bit of tough hardy hunter blood into an event horse but breeding has changed.  We can ship semen across the globe - stallions and progeny are not restricted by country any more.  Smart studs in Ireland are using Dutch bred stallions, Germany buys up English blood stallions.  People who go all the way to Ireland to buy horses probably know what they're looking for or have a romantic notion of buying a Badminton winner out of bog somewhere.

Buying scrappy horses to 'do up and sell on' happens everywhere.  You've only got to go the Doncaster Sales to see that large numbers of yearlings are 'prepped' for the sales by consigners who tart them up, show them off and hopefully sell them for more.  The difference is that the buyers are experienced and can see potential a long way off.  The danger here is that encouraging the inexperienced to go over to Ireland simply plays into the hands of the unscrupulous few.  And for the Irish amongst us, I'd say the same was true of going to Holland to buy some flash dressage warmblood   A fool and his money are soon parted.

I think at the end of the day, it's like buying meat from the butcher in my village.  Yes, I buy from Tesco occasionally but whenever I buy from my butcher, I do appreciate the difference in quality and the older I get (and presumably the more I can afford to go to the butcher!), the more I value that.  Horses: you basically get what you pay for.


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## chris london (2 September 2010)

I am sorry to say that this topic will run and run......

In Ireland there are just too many horses and breeders and now there is a bigger danger. With TB's and especially ex race horses going for a song the less ethical breeders are picking up stock for breeding. I myself have been offered several offspring of these animals. The question has to be asked where are these animals coming from in the first place. The answer I am afraid is the so called ethical breeders. I have first hand knowledge of a number of these animals being offered for silly money. Ex race horse/ point to point for less than £500. The same is also starting to happen with the ISH. 
With these animals going into these circles the cycle is just going to continue and probably get worse. The consequence is also that horses are getting dumped all over. It is a daily occurrence here to hear of more horses being abandoned. A colleague of mine went down to a sale just last week looking for a pony for his daughter. At the sale there was nothing suitable, outside he was offered a number of horses and ponies for free. This is the best bit - when he went back to his jeep there in the box were two horses. He went inside to inform them of the mistake only to be told that there was no mistake and these horses must be his and he had to take them home with him. He was also infomed that he would be reported if he tried to unload them and leave them at the sale. He reluctantly came home with the two. Both are not bad animals standing 16. 2 and 16. 3 respectively and in reasonable condition. Not the point though as he is now stuck with them and he can't even give them away. So what to do, does he bring them on, time he just does not have and has been said already by so many others what would he get in return. No he is resigned to just keep them out in the fields and spend as little as he can making sure that they are OK.  

This is just one of many instances I know of first hand. 

The crux is that with the hay harvest so poor in the UK a number of farmers over here are already looking to make a killing if prices go up. Which will surely just push the prices up over here in Ireland. Which, you guessed it will just make things just get worse.

You could also find that the UK will have more cases of their own to contend with.

Just so many dabbling looking to make a buck.


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## Paddydou (2 September 2010)

Lark said:



			Unfortunately even if this was alluded to in the H&H column the premise has been adopted and driven home by many of the contributers to this thread.  Being Irish and a life long owner/producer/breeder/competitor and animal lover!! it is very difficult to honestly credit the delusional misconceptions people have demonstrated on this thread in relation to Ireland/Irish and their horses. Of course there are serious welfare issues both in Ireland and England which need to be tackled head on.

And with respect I have yet to see any equally denigrating thread on any Irish forums villifying the treatment of horses by English people following the horrors of Amersham...the man certainly..but not the Nation.
		
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I am sorry that you have taken offence however if you read more of my comments you will find that I have complimented the Irish and their breeding on many occasions and have also pointed out that there are many impecable breeders in Ireland. I am not the only one to have pointed this out several others have also said the same in various ways. Perhaps I did not articulate very well.

The thread was started following an article in H&H. I am sure that if the article had been about Holland, Argentina, France, Belguim, Canada, USA, New Zealand etc that someone would have taken offence to some of the comments because they are naturally proud of their nation. 

Personally I prefer to deal with people. That is the person not the nationality they are. It is a crying shame that your countrys horses are suffering from these problems. 

You simply wouldn't see many of the sceens that you see in Dublins less affluent areas in London, (or perhaps the correct wording should be it woudl be a rareity rather than a common sight). There could be many reasons for this. One of which I suspect is the hard work and dedication of our equestrian charities who have finances and resources that the Irish equivilent simply does not have. A shame.


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## JanetGeorge (2 September 2010)

Paddydou said:



			You simply wouldn't see many of the sceens that you see in Dublins less affluent areas in London, (or perhaps the correct wording should be it woudl be a rareity rather than a common sight). There could be many reasons for this. One of which I suspect is the hard work and dedication of our equestrian charities who have finances and resources that the Irish equivilent simply does not have. A shame.
		
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I actually think it is more to do with the fact that young people in London's less affluent areas are more likely to be mugging little old ladies for their pensions rather than keeping horses! 

Horses and riding are MUCH more a part of Irish culture -even in the bigger cities - thn in UK cities.


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## CorvusCorax (2 September 2010)

QR - Do some of the posters here realise that London and Dublin are just over an hour away from one another, by plane?
Jeez, we're not on different planets...while I'm all for national identities, we have far, far, far more in common than we don't.

Are some of these comments informed soley by watching Into the West or something?!
(Goes back to hiding in the dogs room...)


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## Pudding01 (2 September 2010)

Thank you Eothain!

And please, sort your terminology out people / be more politically sensitive - over 3000 lives have been lost in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland!!


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## Mickyjoe (2 September 2010)

Eothoin has said everything that I wanted to say. Honestly the closed mind, open mouth brigade on this forum sicken me sometimes.


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## Paddydou (3 September 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			I actually think it is more to do with the fact that young people in London's less affluent areas are more likely to be mugging little old ladies for their pensions rather than keeping horses! 

Horses and riding are MUCH more a part of Irish culture -even in the bigger cities - thn in UK cities.
		
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This is so true!!! Either that or trying to "shank" (stab) each other to look good. 

Perhaps we should introduce more horses to the inner cities - but then I have always thought that kids in the UK's cities are missing out. 

I think there are lots of reasons not just one. I notice that in this weeks horse and hound there is an article requesting people to fill in a survey about equestrian welfare in the UK. Perhaps when that survey is complete it will highlight a few points!


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## Onyxia (3 September 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			TELL me about it!  I came in tonight to a phone message from someone wanting to buy two filly foals - had to be ID sport horses to make 16.1+ and suitable for eventing!

As it happens I HAVE two such fillies, out TBx mares who both evented and hunted themselves.  Good news????

No!  The message was:  she was only prepared to pay £1,200 for the two!  Hell, I can't put fillies like that on the ground for £600 - let alone rear them well.  I WAS going to ring her back and say: "if you find anyone desperate enough to sell a decent ID SH filly foal for £600 at weaning, PLEASE let me know and I'll buy them - it would be cheaper than breeding them!"  

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What we are prepared to pay has to change-simple fact is if we want a well bred horse that has been raised correctly it will cost.
Think it was lasts weeks H&H with the article about the Billy Stud in,said it costs them IRO12k to produce a horse to 4-now ofc that is for something truely top class,but stud fee aside,it costs as much to feed/house and train a good one as a bad one.
So a 3 or 4k 4yo is costing the breeder a lot of money they won't see come sale. 
I don't really understand why we accept that a car or house will cost more then it did 20 years ago while expecting to pay the same as we did then for a horse!

Ireland is not a different planet.
The same problems are seen here,maybe not perhaps on the same scale but they are here. I would bet every country has the same issues,some just make the press more.


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## niagaraduval (4 September 2010)

Also agree and am pro cull. Sadly a necessary evil down to greedy people.


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## SKY (4 September 2010)

Eothain, i agree with you


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## Alec Swan (11 September 2010)

There can be no question,  but there is an existing and deepening,  welfare problem,  in Ireland,  and England too.  

That Ireland produces world class horses,  isn't in doubt,  and there's a reason for this.  Not all,  certainly,  but many of those who breed and produce the very best,  importantly,  come from several generations of those who've done the very same thing.  The important point is that most of those,  (from Ireland anyway) who today breed these top class horses,  have importantly learnt from a parent,  and often a grandparent's,  knee.  For those who had parents with no equine interests,  then there was always the "farm down the road",  and there must be many Irish children,  over the years,  who have been "adopted"!  To support my point,  most of the best stockmen,  today, had knowledgeable support from their parents.

Here in England,  I would think that,  the bulk of those who breed don't come from equine back grounds,  with the predictable and minimal experienced support,  and that includes me,  incidentally!  

There is nothing,  in this world,  wrong with an English,  or for that matter an Irish,  buyer spotting a bargain,  and turning it around and showing a profit.  It turns the buyer into a dealer,  and so it should.  The dealing aspect of horse ownership is what should keep the wheels turning.  It's a great shame,  Mrs. George(!),  that you gave up.  Between the Breeders and Buyers,  there needs to be the Dealer.  Their buying judgement being a very useful yardstick. 

To the main point of this thread.  Disposal and welfare go hand in hand.  Many here in England have paid £1k to have a horse incinerated.  10 years or so ago,  any horse standing at 15-16hh,  which was well covered in flesh,  had a minimum value of £500,  and they went for slaughter.  Now there will be many who couldn't countenance such a thought,  but the lack of commercial slaughter terms means that those horses which are,  shall we say "surplus",  are now up for the welfare cull.  Any horse which would be considered as less than ideal,  becomes a liability,  upon purchase.   Can anyone justify,  to me,  the damage which we have done?

Horse passports now contain a page where any owner,  at any time during the life of the horse concerned,  has the right to bar their animal from slaughter for human consumption.  Madness.

It's madness,  because if you view the situation in America,  where horses are shipped many hundreds of miles,  to an appalling end,  then would not conscientious,  licensed and correct abattoirs,  be a better way?  How many do we have in England?  To my knowledge there are only two.  I have never bought a horse,  and then sold it on,  but if I did,  and the relevant non-slaughter sheet had been filled in,  then I'd leave it where it was.  

We are now reaping the benefits of being fluffy.  If horses were to have an "end" value,  then there would be no need for a welfare cull.

Alec.


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## henryhorn (11 September 2010)

Well said JG, let's have support for the British Breeders who try their damndest to provide sane sound talented horses whilst maintaining welfare standards. 
We too have bought poorly produced Irish horses in the past and their production in many areas is way short of over here.  
I have sold two broodmares this time, left another empty etc because as JG says, until people realise how expensive it is to feed a horse to four years of age it's economic sense to sell the mares..plus haylage is from £26 to £50 a large round bale here so why should I spend a fortune to produce a lovely horse for buyers who won't pay fair prices? 
A minimum price for a four year old is £5k, yet I am reduced to offering one at £2500 rather than feed it through another winter. 
My blood boils at hearing suggestions of go to Ireland to support their industry, which already has recieved government grants etc. 
BUY BRITISH or risk losing the opportunity as more and more people give up breeding...


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## Mickyjoe (12 September 2010)

henryhorn said:



			We too have bought poorly produced Irish horses in the past and their production in many areas is way short of over here. .
		
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Oh FFS! Surely that's a case in point. Seek out "poorly produced" horses and of course their production in many areas will be short. If you buy WELL PRODUCED Irish horses then you will find production that is superior in many myriad ways - you will obviously have to pay for that production as it should be - but it seems that many people who have posted here about the bad breeders in Ireland here just like to seek out a bargain and are then surprised when they find themselves faced with cowboys. 
God!
It would be just as easy to buy poorly produced horses in the UK whose production will fall way short of production in Ireland.

Why the hell do you think dealers like Vere Phillips does so much horse shopping at Ireland's premier show - the RDS? Because he knows he won't find 500 euro bargains, but he will find horses that have been produced to a certain standard and with a certain amount of investment to already get them to that point. 
I doubt if any of you bargain hunters would decide to do your shopping at the RDS. No, it's too much fun to boast about how you rescued some wormy creature from a bog in Ireland and nurtured it back to health and then come on an internet forum to bitch about all Irish breeders and producers based on this experience.


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## henryhorn (12 September 2010)

Yes Mickeyjoe, we bought at sales, where the horses had in some cases been dragged from the fields, handled for the first time in three years then chased loose down the main street nefore being sold behind the pub..
We are sufficiently proficient to be able to cope with that, my point being why struggle with something like that when for the same money over here you can benefit an English breeder?
I have not boasted about rescueing some worm ridden horse from a bog, that's your definition.
It is common sense to handle the horses more, even the Dartmoor commoners here now handle and halter break all their ponies before taking them through the sale ring, whereas five years ago they hadn't been touched apart from their first branding.
Having toured quite a few yards in Ireland and seen horses standing on two feet of their own muck, they still need to catch up with the UK..Sorry but that's a fact.


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## SO1 (12 September 2010)

have you not seen the prices for well put together irish cobs or registered connies that are not over height? you would be lucky to get a 5 year old version of either for under 5K. the irish do have a good reputation for breeding very nice horses. 

certain types of irish horses are still popular but maybe breeders have taken their eye off what is popular and not so readily available here and are now breeding miscellaneous horses that are a bit cheaper to breed and thinking the irish tag will make people want them when we can get the same at home. possibly they have put their prices up too due to past successes and the dealers from the uk are now looking elsewhere for cheap horses.


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## Mickyjoe (13 September 2010)

henryhorn said:



			Yes Mickeyjoe, we bought at sales, where the horses had in some cases been dragged from the fields, handled for the first time in three years then chased loose down the main street nefore being sold behind the pub..
.
		
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Traveller sales - hardly centres of excellence.... Not somewhere I, despite being Irish and producing young, green, horses for competition my whole life, would be interested in frequenting, but yes, I'm sure you would pick up a bargain there if you were prepared to support those events. 



henryhorn said:



			We are sufficiently proficient to be able to cope with that, my point being why struggle with something like that when for the same money over here you can benefit an English breeder?
.
		
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Absolutely -I suggest you head to the UK equivalent of what you have described above -gypsy fairs - which incidentally have had their own fair share of reporting of cruelty and abuse or do you deny this? 



henryhorn said:



			Having toured quite a few yards in Ireland and seen horses standing on two feet of their own muck, they still need to catch up with the UK..Sorry but that's a fact.
		
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No, not a fact. What sort of tour were you taken on - the cut price one?
If you are searching out bargains from cowboys, then absolutely, you are bound to find appalling conditions - both in the UK and Ireland. To suggest that it is a purely Irish thing shows your own ignorance, or refusal to see my point I'm afraid.


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## Kelly Marks (13 September 2010)

Im in the market for an exceptional 3 or 4 year old to bring on to make a Show/Working Hunter for my niece in a few years (feel free whichever nationality you are to PM me!)  I find the bringing the horse on stage incredibly satisfying though am totally resigned to the fact there is absolutely no money to be made in it - particularly if you do the job to a high standard!


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## golden_revolution (13 September 2010)

The British Horse Society has a current campaign ongoing called "Drawing The Line" and they are aiming to stop indiscriminate breeding...

This is taken from their website ...(http://www.bhs.org.uk/Horse_Care/Campaigns/Responsible_Breeding.aspx)

" Tackling the issue of the over-production of horses and ponies in the UK is not a straightforward task. There is a huge range of people that need to be educated on the implications of overproduction, and made aware of the duties concerned with responsible breeding. People from all walks of life are guilty of breeding horses indiscriminately, and a campaign such as this should reach all areas of the equestrian world.

To overcome the problem of indiscriminate breeding, we have lots of ideas and valuable long-term projects planned. For this however, we need funding. Hence the launch of the Drawing the Line on Indiscriminate Breeding campaign.

Throughout 2010 we will be asking celebrities and famous faces to draw a picture, or donate an item or experience to The British Horse Society which can be auctioned off in October. All proceeds from the auction will go towards our responsible breeding work, helping us to educate owners and riders, and prevent welfare problems before they start.

We already have a number of Draw the Line supporters, including Carl Hester, Mary King, Kelly Marks, Jenny Pitman, Alan Titchmarsh and Martin Clunes. However we are looking for even more supporters of this essential cause. 

When asked for her thoughts on indiscriminate breeding, eventing legend Mary King said: "In the UK we end up producing too many unsuitable horses and ponies which face an uncertain future. That's why I support The British Horse Society's campaign and want to urge people to Think Before You Breed.""


I have had a look through the auction items, and there are some FAB ones available. I especially love the painting of Robert Walker on the show cob George by Sarah Clegg! 
http://www.bhs.org.uk/Horse_Care/Ca...ding/Donations/Donations_box/Clegg_Sarah.aspx

I think this is a great campaign and will hopefully put a stop to the poor horses we see going through our sales etc and ending up leading potentially horrible and/or short lived lives!


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## henryhorn (13 September 2010)

I would agree there are bad yards over here too, but at the time I went horse buying over there we used contact numbers given by an English dealer plus called at the studs where our current bloodlines came from.
Having never been to an irish sale before it was an eye opener.. The horses we bought were taken back to the yard s they came from so they certainly weren't owned by gypsies, but local people like the butcher in one village and a stud in another.
No we weren't searching for cheap horses, at that time we paid probably a thousand less than in the Uk for the equivalent horses, and by the time they had arrived their transport plus the vet fees for the bug they arrived with made them not such a bargain.
It's some years since I've been to Ireland so perhaps things have inproved hugely, after all producing youngsters in the Uk has, so it's fair to assume it will have there too. 
I still make the point that buyers should try looking in the Uk first, there are numerous people selling nice young horses including us..
And before you sharpen that huge chip on your shoulder yet again, I'm not anti Irish, I adored the place and the hospitality, I just was pretty underwhelmed with the conditions I saw many horses living in..from the reports in the media lately it hasn't changed regarding that for many despite your protests.. Or have they as they sometimes do, made it all up?


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## SueEllen (13 September 2010)

How can anyone pressume that yards in Ireland are of a poorer standard than those in the UK, unless of course you have been to every yard in the UK and Ireland, well done if you've managed that! 

There are obviously poor yards and horses in both countries, but to insinuate that the standard in Ireland is lower than the UK is highly insulting. 

Buy local, ok I understand that, I would, but do not insult Irish breeders.


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## henryhorn (13 September 2010)

I am sorry of course I didn't mean to insult all Irish breeders, we have been riding Irish bred horses for many years, but from the yards we visited (probably 10 in total) the standard then was dire..One had a dead cow in the yard with the dogs eating it's innards, four others had horses stood on several feet of dung and yet more had horses with untreated injuries. 
I must have visited several hundred UK yards and only once have I seen those sort of conditions, yet from what we saw it appeared the norm.
We have since had horses from Goresbridge who were in perfect health and obviously well cared for, but surely the latest fuss has been about an overproduction of horses and people not looking after them, so there must be something wrong surely?
I based my comments on what we saw, not hearsay, if I'm wrong great, standards have risen, and that has to be good.


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## Eothain (14 September 2010)

henryhorn said:



			Yes Mickeyjoe, we bought at sales, where the horses had in some cases been dragged from the fields, handled for the first time in three years then chased loose down the main street nefore being sold behind the pub..
We are sufficiently proficient to be able to cope with that, my point being why struggle with something like that when for the same money over here you can benefit an English breeder?
I have not boasted about rescueing some worm ridden horse from a bog, that's your definition.
It is common sense to handle the horses more, even the Dartmoor commoners here now handle and halter break all their ponies before taking them through the sale ring, whereas five years ago they hadn't been touched apart from their first branding.
Having toured quite a few yards in Ireland and seen horses standing on two feet of their own muck, they still need to catch up with the UK..Sorry but that's a fact.
		
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Well, you've never bought off me so! I certainly don't have some super flashy yard but I make the best of what I have until such time arises that I can begin building the yard I have sketched 1000 times or more and what's more, It's absolutely not a fact that "yards in Ireland" need to catch up. Come down from the high horse. If you choose to travel to some sorry relic like Ballinasloe or other such fair then shame on you. There are many of us here trying to do everything we can to be more than above board.

And my horses certainly are not poorly produced either. I suggest that you don't tar us all with the one brush. There's no chips on anyone's shoulders being sharpened, just a general sickening here that a Holier-Than-Thou attitude still exists.


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## Mickyjoe (14 September 2010)

henryhorn said:



			And before you sharpen that huge chip on your shoulder yet again, I'm not anti Irish, I adored the place and the hospitality, I just was pretty underwhelmed with the conditions I saw many horses living in..
		
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Lol!! Oh please. Is that what you are resorting to now that your argument is showing its cracks? I have a huge chip on my shoulder because I am taking you to task about your obviously misinformed and (as you have just admitted yourself) out of date statements???

Unfortunately you were sent to the wrong places - I suggest you check your contacts more thoroughly in future before you take recommendations that send you to such places as Ballinasloe and then base all of your knowledge of Irish breeders and producers on this.
They obviously had a good idea of your own standards to send you there. 
Were you to perhaps set your standards a little higher then you would obviously have found different situations. 

I have no problem whatsoever with you encouraging forum readers to buy at home - I would agree with you in fact. The last thing we need over here is uninformed, badly prepared people like you coming over and supporting traveller fairs where many horses are of course badly produced. 

If I were to visit Appleby Fair and breeding yards of a similar "standard" and then as a result decide that ALL UK yards must be the same and come on here and encourage all prospective buyers to stay away from UK breeders, then I'm sure you could be forgiven for taking me to task on it - rather than be described as having a huge chip on my shoulder. 

Oh and for what it's worth - I lived and worked in the UK for years, both as an instructer and a dressage stable jockey producing and competing young horses - so I would consider myself somewhat more informed than yourself (10 crap yards and a traveller fair) 
to stand up in this discussion comparing Irish and UK standards...


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## Daddy_Long_Legs (14 September 2010)

I have been following this thread and have only decided to comment now as I am now totally disgusted with the attitude some of the posters have shown here. 

It seems to me that some of you are extremely obnoxious and pig headed. You can't even call our country by it's correct name. 

HH you want to get your head out of your a**e. I have seen plenty of bad yards in the UK so this nonsense that Irish yards have to catch up with english yards is nonsense. Wake up and smell the coffee.


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## Rathlee (14 September 2010)

Hear Hear!! Enough of this utter ****, i've lost my patience reading this thread. 

Come to a fairer forum based in Ireland, where people don't go round pontificating in your ear. 

www.stabletostable.com/forums


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## henryhorn (14 September 2010)

From the recent replies it seems my views are then out of date, in which case I apologise, the sale was at somewhere called Tulla something not B.
I was making my opinion from what I had seen on my trips over there, and from the fact over the years I worked in plenty of dealing yards where the Irish horses arrived 9 at a time, and we had to assess their level of training and produce them ready for sale. For most of them (the majority of which after sale went on to successfully SJ/event) their training seemed to have been chased round on the end of a lunge line and front shoes on.. It was due to their wonderful temperaments they responded quickly to professional training.
If as you insist the standards of production are vastly improved then of course I must be wrong, but it does seem there is still an overproduction of horses  going on, which is leading to problems, and advising people in the UK to buy there when our own market isn't wonderful can't be a good idea.
I would also say there is a similar problem in the UK, which is why we have this year sold two brood mares and left others empty. 
It's relatively easy to sell properly produced four year olds but few seem to want younger horses, with the inevitable time it takes to produce them. We decided to cut back now before we find selling difficult, with haylage round her from £26 to £50 a bale making hay on the fields seems a better return.
Perhaps I'd best change my name before I make another trip across the Irish Sea, I don't want to get lynched....


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## Eothain (15 September 2010)

Ha! There'll be no lynching and no need for name changing!!! I well believe the horror stories. They turn my stomach and cause much head shaking! Thankfully, through education and the youth challenging the established opinions, such scenarios have fallen.

In 2010 though, I believe all horsey folk, or at least most horsey folk, would agree that to stay viable they've to be more professional in their dealings, in how they act and in how they treat their horses.

It's my belief that if foreign buyers support the more reputable dealer/breeder that there'll be less outlet's for the dodgey folk and they'll cease their activities.

Ireland of the 80s is a much different place to Ireland today and while I may have flipped a lid in getting my point across, we can't continue to be bound to the past. I find it frustrating here and in "real life" that the big picture gets ignored.

You, the British, are absolutely right to buy local. There's no denying that, once buying local means buying quality, it's fine by any man's standard!

The crisis in Ireland is not due to a lack of care from the people but due to a failing Government that is so out of touch with reality taking money that people don't have out of their pockets to try and fix a banking sector and economy that's on life support. People are finding it hard to feed themselves, never mind feed their animals!!!

It's a fierce pity but unfortunately a situation we're in and I'm sure people are doing the best they can with what they have. There's no point moaning about it though. At least there's changing attitudes in the equine sector here that foreign buyers can't be screwed any more and that professional outlooks will lead to long term viability. Don't judge us on the past. Judge us for who we are going forward.


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## Kelly Marks (15 September 2010)

Classy post!  Good show!


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## TinyTrigger (15 September 2010)

Here here Eothain & MickeyJoe! 

Henryhorn.. you are really quite funny (after a fashion) with those antiquated views and opinions..


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## Alec Swan (15 September 2010)

Eothain,

a perfect display of tact.  Very well said.  

Others have reconsidered their words,  and I thought,  with a degree of humility.  Which,  with any luck,  will be enough.  Times are are hard for all of those who would attempt to earn a living from horses.  Now isn't the time for falling out.

Alec.


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## henryhorn (15 September 2010)

Argh but I'm learning TinyTrigger, I'm learning, and do plan on coming across again though my horse buying days are over, has everything modernised then, no more wonderful bars with shops in the front part and bar in the back? 
It was always such a joy to feel how unchanged (in a good way) the villages felt and the hospitality was second to none...
You can blame my antiquated views sadly on my great age nowadays....


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## Equilibrium Ireland (18 September 2010)

Eothain,

I agree with you on most points but blaming the government, really? Do you think this government is different than any other government in the world right now? Sorry not buying it. The same way I don't feel sorry for people that just had to buy the big house on a 100% mortgage, 2 cars and all furnishings on credit. Yeah, banks were reckless and so were the people who decided they could absolutely afford what they knew they couldn't. But hey everyone was doing it so better not get left behind.

It was the same exact thing with the horses. All the sudden bad mares were making stupid money on offspring that weren't worth the color of the money spent so you get more bad mares and you keep on breediing. And for a few years things were good. Keep your head buried in the sand and when you suddenly realize you're in trouble it's time to blame somebody because it certainly isn't my fault.

My husband and I had a very good breaking business for awhile. We always had our own and we did breed a few until we saw where things were starting to head. We didn't blame anybody for what was happening because surprise surprise, that's life. Nope hubby got a job in Saudi which is a very loney boring place to be and away from your family. But we had to do what we had to do to ensure the horses were taken care of. When you have horses you make sacrafices plain and simple. No point in loving them during the good times and blaming them in the bad. Still the same horses costing you the same money.

And just to address the selling tactics of the Irish. I'm American and I've been here for 9 years. When calling about horses from my cell phone I would get the American accent price. Hubby would call a few mins later from his cell phone and he would get the Irish accent price. So that practice still exists.

I've sold a few horses over the years to England and I've always been grateful. Why because I'm still updated and I knew that horse got a good home and I didn't have to worry about them. Not saying all English homes are wonderful but from my point of view I am much happier when they got there than here. I'm currently looking for a horse I bred and had a post on the missing horse section because I failed him and want to know where he is and if I can help if he needs it. And I'm still waiting to see how my situation will be for the winter but I am thinking of fostering this winter if I can. This is the time to give back to the industry that has been my life.

Terri


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## lifebythedrop (18 September 2010)

Sorry, I am totally in agreement with Eothain. Remember when people bought on 100% mortgage that was partially because house prices were through the roof. The banks were lending vast sums to the developers to sell property at inflated prices.  Rent was expensive and people were afraid not to invest.

The recession; don't you remember when we voted for the Lisbon treaty the third time, it was to get us out of the recession!!!!!!!!  I have not seen the improvement.

You are indeed lucky that your husband got a job in Saudi, unfortunately that is not an option for all.  There are many people wondering how they will get through the winter. Pay cuts continue and costs are rising daily. 

The IHB refunds the traveling expenses to buyers coming here, I often think that the money might be better being reinvested into the industry here. 

Remember that many dealers came to Ireland to buy "cheap" horses to make a profit (sometimes a vast profit) and quite often would see the price that the horse was sold on for.  This practice doesn't help your "accent" theory. If the dealers bought inferior but cheap horses, then they too have a responsibility towards the production of poor quality horses. 

I see many very average horse for sale on the Horse and Hound, for huge prices. A few years ago I sold a very good little horse to the UK for 8000 euros only to see him advertised 2 weeks later for £17,500.  Now there was a big profit expected for a fortnight.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (18 September 2010)

Indeed lucky, yes, but I have to do odd jobs too. You have to do what you have to do. Sitting around blaming people and not going out and do what needs doing isn't an option. You seem to think this is a problem only in Ireland. It's everywhere. The US is hit with the exact same problems. People don't have jobs, people walked away from houses, 100% mortgages, and the horse market is flooded. 

As far as the accent therory, here's my story. I bought an unbroke 2yo filly for unbroke money. Had her for a year, broke her and sold her on to the States for exactly what she was worth as a 3yo that had done nothing. So it was an easy sale. From there she went on to do pretty good in the 5yo jumper classes in Wellington and was for sale for 6 times the amount. Did I sit around and cry in my cornflakes because I didn't get that money. Nope, was quite proud of the fact I sold one out there that did as well as she did because hey maybe she was started right and could then go on and do the job she was bred for. And when I had originally sold her I was told I let her go too cheaply. I got my costs back and a tidy profit and more importantly she sold. All the brothers and sisters from that mare never sold as well when they were offered similar money to what I got because they thought they would hold out for more. In the end they got much less to move them on. That's the big problem. If you want to be a producer and get the big money then you will have to spend more money along the way. Don't begrudge someone who's selling on which is exactly what the game is about. Sorry, had my fill of looking at 3yo can only view them from a distance in the field never seen a blacksmith "well bred" horses for 10k to last a life time. 

And don't get me wrong, so many Irish people do get it right. I've enjoyed my time here, but the welfare situation isn't a problem because of them. It's because of the people with delusions of grandeur that horses suffer and that decent breeders can't recoup costs. 

And I do feel for people who lost jobs they've had for years. People who have worked their ass off to provide for their families and those who didn't live beyond their means as if this bubble would last forever. Those are the people the government should be bending over backwards to help. But too many people lived way beyond their means with no thought or care in the world other than the "entitled to " personality. I don't feel sorry for those types and they are the ones crying the loudest. Mind you for all the crying they do they still seem to be able to go down to Spain a couple of times a year to re charge their batteries. Please.

Terri


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## lifebythedrop (18 September 2010)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			.... You seem to think this is a problem only in Ireland. It's everywhere. The US is hit with the exact same problems. People don't have jobs, people walked away from houses, 100% mortgages, and the horse market is flooded. 

Terri
		
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I am not that naive and am not in fact Irish by nationality.


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## AengusOg (19 September 2010)

Tinkerbee said:



			Actually, if we're being pedantic Britain is England, Scotland and Wales.
United Kingdom includes Northern Ireland.
And the British Isles includes Southern Ireland as well....
		
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Not true.

First...there is no such place as 'southern Ireland'. It is The Republic of Ireland.

The United Kingdom refers to the union between Scotland and England and is actually the united kingdoms of both countries, something which most Scots fought against for centuries. It was ultimately brought about by treachery and English gold. One day it will be broken and Scotland will become a nation in its own right once again.

Northern Ireland was taken from the Irish people by means of social engineering by a corrupt British government. It was (is) held, by force, by oppression, and against the will of the predominantly Catholic population.


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## Holly831 (19 September 2010)

I don't often venture out of the breeding section so I came across this post by accident.

I have always bought my daughters show jumping ponies from an Irish dealer who I now class as a friend. All the ponies were honest and sound and good value for money - and I sold everyone of them for the same if not slightly more than I paid for them - therefore one happy bunny.

My friend no longer deals in horses so when we were looking for my daughters last pony he kindly searched his contacts and came up with a list for us to view. We duly flew over and spent 4 days visiting yards. Some very small (8 ish horse) to some stunning looking yards - beautiful stalls inside massive new barns.....(paid for I was told by the government grants) with at least 2 horses in each stall with no bedding and 12" in crap. These were the 'good' horses as when we didn't like any that were on offer we were taken to 'cow pens' housing 20 to 30 in each pen standing on concrete slats. no bedding and no space to lie down or to get away from being attacked by others. I was horrified and told we were only allowed to see these horses because of my friend. They were in for fattening up before being transfered to the 'show' stalls. The smell was horendous.

I do know I went to a total of 8 yards - one of which was a very well known breeder and another a well known show jumping yard and there was only one yard I saw that was anywhere near reasonable - the one we bought our boy from, a small hunting yard.

I am not taring all yards with the same brush but 7 out of 8 were horrific and IMO needed serious action taken against them.

I flew home feeling I wanted to get all the horses out of there - and No I am not a sentimental fluffy horse owner, just deeply affected by what I saw.

I am not saying this represents all Irish yards but the breeders I spoke to couldn't care less about the animals they were handling. Everything was 'what I was looking for'.

Actually unsure why I am even posting this as it is off the OP topic!!

I was talking to my vet recently at a local horse auction where Irish horses were being offered by several dealers. The horses seem to have started coming in looking really poor - something that never used to happen! Some TB's (English) were also looking very very poor. I asked the vet why no action was taken and commented that I would be ashamed to bring a horse in that condition. Their reply was....."nobody will bid on the ones in good condition but there are a whole load of 'rescue' places that are bidding on the ones in a poor state so the dealers have realised they actualy get MORE money selling a poor quality animal than a nicely turned out one" In effect the 'rescue' centres are fueling the market for poor quality, badly kept animals.


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## perfect11s (19 September 2010)

AengusOg said:



			Not true.

First...there is no such place as 'southern Ireland'. It is The Republic of Ireland.

The United Kingdom refers to the union between Scotland and England and is actually the united kingdoms of both countries, something which most Scots fought against for centuries. It was ultimately brought about by treachery and English gold. One day it will be broken and Scotland will become a nation in its own right once again.

Northern Ireland was taken from the Irish people by means of social engineering by a corrupt British government. It was (is) held, by force, by oppression, and against the will of the predominantly Catholic population.
		
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 Yes  scottish independence  I hope so the sooner the better!!!! then hopefully we wont ever have to suffer another labour adminstration ... seeing our taxes going north of the border for free this and subsidised that...  and on the Irish issue the republic dont want the counties of north, I belive it is mainly proistant, and there is absulutly no reason why people cannot move south of the border if they wish  so why the fuss  if there was less sh  stiring and draging up the past we could all live in peace and get on with each other....


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## MotherOfChickens (19 September 2010)

AengusOg said:



			One day it will be broken and Scotland will become a nation in its own right once again.
		
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how do you think that will work-seriously? I love this country and feel the frustration of southern rule but crikey, I've seen nothing to suggest Scotland can do it by herself.


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## guido16 (19 September 2010)

perfect11s said:



			Yes  scottish independence  I hope so the sooner the better!!!! then hopefully we wont ever have to suffer another labour adminstration ... seeing our taxes going north of the border for free this and subsidised that...  ..
		
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"Your" taxes?

I didnt realise that us Scots were exempt from paying tax....

I would love to know what I am allowed to get for free and what subsidies I am due for being Scottish. Pray tell?


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## MotherOfChickens (19 September 2010)

perfect11s said:



			Yes  scottish independence  I hope so the sooner the better!!!! then hopefully we wont ever have to suffer another labour adminstration ... seeing our taxes going north of the border for free this and subsidised that...
		
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yeah, too bad about all our natural resources eh? POPCORN!


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## Tinkerbee (19 September 2010)

AengusOg said:



			Not true.

First...there is no such place as 'southern Ireland'. It is The Republic of Ireland.

The United Kingdom refers to the union between Scotland and England and is actually the united kingdoms of both countries, something which most Scots fought against for centuries. It was ultimately brought about by treachery and English gold. One day it will be broken and Scotland will become a nation in its own right once again.

Northern Ireland was taken from the Irish people by means of social engineering by a corrupt British government. It was (is) held, by force, by oppression, and against the will of the predominantly Catholic population.
		
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Yes ok, I wasn't technical enough but more technical than the other person.  I shall stick to calling it The Free State,


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## CorvusCorax (19 September 2010)

perfect11s said:



			and on the Irish issue the republic dont want the counties of north, I belive it is mainly proistant, and there is absulutly no reason why people cannot move south of the border if they wish  so why the fuss  if there was less sh  stiring and draging up the past we could all live in peace and get on with each other....
		
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Yes, Northern Ireland is mainly Protestant because that's the way it was corralled off by the British, as AengusOg says. But it won't be that way for a great deal longer, if you look at the demographics.
I say that as a Prod from planter stock who's ancestors were plonked there a couple of hundred years ago and the indigenous people kicked off their land (a bit like, oh, American Indians and Aboriginals in Australia).
I can't change that and I won't feel guilty for it because it wasn't my fault, but it did happen.


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## perfect11s (19 September 2010)

guido16 said:



			"Your" taxes?

I didnt realise that us Scots were exempt from paying tax....

I would love to know what I am allowed to get for free and what subsidies I am due for being Scottish. Pray tell?
		
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 Um not sure of all your freebees
 apart from Free hospital parking , tuition fees also  mostly free, and precriptions are less than half than in england and will soon also be free  then there is the  barnet  formular= sprays money for the scotish public sector to waste....


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## Eothain (19 September 2010)

Wow ... This has nothing got to do with over production in Ireland but is highly entertaining!!!


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## CorvusCorax (19 September 2010)

Oh, who cares how they die as long as the man wielding the knife is a skilled slaughterman. WHOOPS! Wrong thread


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## mymare (19 September 2010)

perfect11s said:



			Um not sure of all your freebees
 apart from Free hospital parking , tuition fees also  mostly free, and precriptions are less than half than in england and will soon also be free  then there is the  barnet  formular= sprays money for the scotish public sector to waste....
		
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OMG!!  Are you serious??  Get your facts right before your mouth runs away with you.  I'm half English/half Scottish, and live in Scotland.  Yes there are a few folk with chips on their shoulders about the English (a few threads back) but is it surprising when there are comments like this flying about??  Free hospital parking??  Where exactly??  My nearest hospital, which is in Dundee certainly does not!!  And as for the hand-outs, are you making this up as you go along?  Have you forgotten who paid poll-tax for a long time before England?  

Wind your neck in and get an education.  It's no flipping wonder there's so much arguing going on with stupid comments like that.


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## mymare (19 September 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Oh, who cares how they die as long as the man wielding the knife is a skilled slaughterman. WHOOPS! Wrong thread 

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PMSL!!!


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## perfect11s (20 September 2010)

mymare said:



			OMG!!  Are you serious??  Get your facts right before your mouth runs away with you.  I'm half English/half Scottish, and live in Scotland.  Yes there are a few folk with chips on their shoulders about the English (a few threads back) but is it surprising when there are comments like this flying about??  Free hospital parking??  Where exactly??  My nearest hospital, which is in Dundee certainly does not!!  And as for the hand-outs, are you making this up as you go along?  Have you forgotten who paid poll-tax for a long time before England?  

Wind your neck in and get an education.  It's no flipping wonder there's so much arguing going on with stupid comments like that.
		
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  OK
 These issues and facts can be googled..... OH and we didnt pay poll tax but we still had the rates to pay...     I think you will find dundee and some other hospitals are on the stupidly expensive  PFI (Leased to the NHS) 
 so its a private hospital!!!  there is a fuss about it not being free parking like most other scottish hospitals,  anyway you deserve some slack up there as  its grim apart from the few days a year it isnt blowing a hooey and raining ...


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## perfect11s (20 September 2010)

Oh sorry!! now where were we... , but before we move on you can tell you've left civalisation as the further north you get the harder it is to get gravy and proper pies  and find strange things instead like deep fried mars bars and deep fried pizza in chip shops.....


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## zefragile (20 September 2010)

Wow this thread is going the same way as the Halal one!


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## mymare (20 September 2010)

perfect11s said:



			OK
 These issues and facts can be googled..... OH and we didnt pay poll tax but we still had the rates to pay...     I think you will find dundee and some other hospitals are on the stupidly expensive  PFI (Leased to the NHS) 
 so its a private hospital!!!  there is a fuss about it not being free parking like most other scottish hospitals,  anyway you deserve some slack up there as  its grim apart from the few days a year it isnt blowing a hooey and raining ...

Click to expand...

Yep it can be googled, and this link clearly show the letters "NHS".. http://www.nhstayside.scot.nhs.uk/patients/hospital/ninewells.shtml
DUH!!



perfect11s said:



			Oh sorry!! now where were we... , but before we move on you can tell you've left civalisation as the further north you get the harder it is to get gravy and proper pies  and find strange things instead like deep fried mars bars and deep fried pizza in chip shops.....
		
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Wow the education systems good in your area isn't it!!  And that's from someone from WAY down south.


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