# I've bought an inbred puppy :(



## WombatStew (26 July 2016)

We've had our cocker spaniel puppy for a few weeks. He came from a kennel club assured breeder. 
I've just got round to having a look at his pedigree and I noticed some names appearing more than one and not just the prefix. It appears his sire is also his dam's grandsire confused
I've done some research and looked at the kennel clubs coefficient inbreeding calculator. It says the breed average is 9% but our puppy has come out at 26%. 
I'm gutted. I truly thought we'd done our homework and gone to a reputable breeder.
Are we likely to face any actual problems from this?


----------



## blackcob (26 July 2016)

I already replied on Mumsnet.


----------



## WombatStew (26 July 2016)

Thanks  I'm widening the net and posting in a few places! The dog house seems quiet!


----------



## WeeLassie (26 July 2016)

I have seen this several times  - its called line breeding, and a lot of breeders do it. No, I very much doubt it will cause any problems.  It is not close enough to not be allowed by KC, as father to daughter would  be.


----------



## s4sugar (26 July 2016)

If the repeated animal is good and sound in mind and body inbreeding is not a bad thing. The coefficient of inbreeding is a tool not a rule and far better to double up on a good ancestor than have a zero coi with all rubbish behind.

As long as all relevant health tests were passed by the parents and grandparents you should hae nothing to worry about however the assured breeder scheme is often a license to dodgy breeders to escape proper scrutiny by a buyer as although they have to do testing they don't actually require good results.

A good breeder would have explained their breeding choices when you first went to them.


----------



## {97702} (26 July 2016)

blackcob said:



			I already replied on Mumsnet. 

Click to expand...

BC you ADMIT to that


----------



## blackcob (26 July 2016)

Lévrier;13323803 said:
			
		


			BC you ADMIT to that    

Click to expand...

I was a fan even before penis beaker, that place is nuts.


----------



## {97702} (26 July 2016)

blackcob said:



			I was a fan even before penis beaker, that place is nuts.  

Click to expand...

I have just completely re-evaluated you as a person......      xx


----------



## Alec Swan (27 July 2016)

WombatStew said:



			..
I've just got round to having a look at his pedigree and I noticed some names appearing more than one and not just the prefix. It appears his sire is also his dam's grandsire confused
.. 

Click to expand...

I really wouldn't worry too much.  Your pup has been bred using the principles of Line-breeding.  It's a common practice in working cockers with most paying little or scant regard to the KC's theories of a breeding coefficient.  

If you research the back-breeding via the available Cocker Pedigree Research site (I can't remember what it's actually called!) you may well see that it's happened previously.  On the face of it,  it would appear to be wrong,  but in practice,  and with considerable thought being given to the dogs being used,  with a clear goal as to the attributes which the breeder wants to replicate,  no harm seems to come from it.

Would the kennel affix be Maesydderwen? (sp!).

Alec.


----------



## MurphysMinder (27 July 2016)

As s4sugar says, the KC  Assured breeder scheme is not always all its cracked up to be due to them asking for health tests but not enforcing good results  However,  I wouldn't be too worried about your pup as long as all parents have good results on the breed specific health tests.  The breeding you describe is line breeding not in breeding,  and the kc coeficient calculator is not always correct.  It may not be the case so much in cockers but in GSDs the KC do not recognise dogs born and registered overseas in their calculations, which applies to a large percentage of the breed, so the figures they show are often inaccurate.


----------



## Dry Rot (27 July 2016)

I've never yet seen a rabbit on a bicycle. It is two hops and a jump. Mr Fox sorts out any that are not up to the breed standard!

Breeding is not about the system so much as the selection of breeding stock. Garbage in, garbage out. 

What on earth gives you the idea that The Kennel Club has anything to do with dogs? It hasn't. It is designed purely to generate little certificates as that is more profitable than the alternative printing money.... and it is also legal as they make up their own rules.


----------



## WombatStew (27 July 2016)

Thanks guys. I feel slightly better now. Luckily pup is happy and healthy. However I realise how naive I've been in assuming kennel club = decent breeder. Lesson learnt!


----------



## Alec Swan (27 July 2016)

The problem is that those who decide to breed a litter of pups only really need to produce one or two litters,  and suddenly they're elevated to the lofty status of being 'Breeders".

As Dry Rot pertinently points out (para 2) and he's entirely correct,  the systems used and the 'recommended' protocols are actually meaningless.  Breeding what's needed is about experience and the ability to accurately assess the qualities of the parents which we've chosen.  It calls for a great deal of thought,  a degree of knowledge and most importantly,  an open mind and the nous to listen to others.

There are far too many 'Breeders' about who haven't,  in reality,  got the faintest idea what they're doing,  and that applies across all breeds be they of work or show persuasion.  If I hear one more person,  when answering my doubts,  who replies "Well that's what the Breeder said",  I'll scream!

There are those who are competent,  but they do need finding!  I'd be interested to know how your pup's bred,  and if you prefer,  by PM will be fine,  I have an interest in work bred Cockers.

Alec.


----------



## gunnergundog (27 July 2016)

WombatStew said:



			We've had our cocker spaniel puppy for a few weeks. He came from a kennel club assured breeder. 
I've just got round to having a look at his pedigree and I noticed some names appearing more than one and not just the prefix. It appears his sire is also his dam's grandsire confused
I've done some research and looked at the kennel clubs coefficient inbreeding calculator. It says the breed average is 9% but our puppy has come out at 26%. 
I'm gutted. I truly thought we'd done our homework and gone to a reputable breeder.
Are we likely to face any actual problems from this? 

Click to expand...

I think you've now learnt a few things to do BEFORE acquiring your next pup rather than after!  And no, I'm not primarily talking about coefficients - rather about mugging up on the breeders/lines behind the various names that appear in any pedigree.  Am guessing that your pup is show bred, or..?


----------



## blackcob (27 July 2016)

Lévrier;13323813 said:
			
		


			I have just completely re-evaluated you as a person......      xx
		
Click to expand...

Don't worry, I'm not going to start breeding. Hoomans or dogs.    

FWIW it was mentioned on the other forum that it was a show type, not working. Even understanding that COI is only one factor I still can't accept that the genetic equivalent of father/daughter or full sibling matings is healthy or necessary.


----------



## Alec Swan (27 July 2016)

WombatStew said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..  It appears his sire is also his dam's grandsire confused. &#8230;&#8230;..
		
Click to expand...




blackcob said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. I still can't accept that the genetic equivalent of father/daughter or full sibling matings is healthy or necessary.
		
Click to expand...

Which clearly isn't the case,  in this situation.

Alec.


----------



## WombatStew (27 July 2016)

Sorry Alec forgot to mention, yes pup is show bred. Lots of Kyna lines. I'll see if I can work out how to poster a photo of the paper copy I've got. 
Certainly have gunner! It never crossed my mind before hand and definitely won't make the same mistake again in the future.  
Blackcob I agree. It just seems so wrong.


----------



## WombatStew (27 July 2016)




----------



## Alec Swan (27 July 2016)

WombatStew said:



			Sorry Alec forgot to mention, yes pup is show bred. &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
Click to expand...

I've neither interest in nor knowledge of Show Cockers,  sorry!  It seems to me that they're all but two separate breeds.

Alec.


----------



## blackcob (27 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Which clearly isn't the case,  in this situation.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Yup, at 26% it's actually a little bit worse. 

OP I could take a guess at the sire of your pup, it's a big winning dog, not that that excuses anything. All other relevant health tests will have been done which is great. 

Crosspost - I was close!


----------



## s4sugar (27 July 2016)

Cockers are not my breed but mating a bitch to her grandsire with outcrosses in between is classic line breeding & that pedigree is decent. 
Not many hip scored but what there is is ok. 
Your pup won't go blind!


----------



## WombatStew (27 July 2016)

s4sugar out of interest how do you know if they're hip scored? I knew parents had all relevant health checks before we bought but didn't look further back.


----------



## WombatStew (27 July 2016)

Blackcob were you thinking of the one that'd sired hundreds?


----------



## MurphysMinder (27 July 2016)

If you put the KC reg name into the health test finder it will give you all scores, eye results etc


----------



## Dry Rot (27 July 2016)

Anyone wanting a layman's insight into breeding should read Pfaffenberger's "The New Knowledge of Dog Behavior". It is about the beginnings of the Seeing Eye (i.e. Guide) Dogs for the Blind in the USA. Full of good sense and a good read too. If I had my way, it would be compulsory reading for all dog owners.


----------



## s4sugar (27 July 2016)

Go on the KC health check page & type in the names.


----------



## Alec Swan (29 July 2016)

WombatStew said:










Click to expand...

Looking further back,  we can see that Huckleberry Finn was put to his own grand/dam Betty Boop and that's on the Sire's side,  then on the dam's side,  Mr Bo Jangles also has Finn and Boop as direct grandparents.  

We can only imagine that the breeders held Mr B_J in high regard.  Considering that the breeders seem to be fairly serious about their previous ambitions,  and that the kennel name goes back 5 generations (at least),  then I suppose that we're left with the belief that they know what they're doing.  Personally I wouldn't breed to such a tight and insular pattern,  but then I'm not an authority so I don't know.

All that you can do OP is to look at your puppy and if he seems fine then he probably is!

Alec.


----------



## dingle12 (29 July 2016)

Sadly I've come across 2 show type cockers in our family and there hasn't been a good out come with the. Not for one min saying anything is wrong with yours but the main problems with the ones I've know are behaviour issues that resulted in one been pts. Keep on top of your pups behaviour and make sure you have good insurance.


----------



## Equi (29 July 2016)

WombatStew said:



			Thanks guys. I feel slightly better now. Luckily pup is happy and healthy. However I realise how naive I've been in assuming kennel club = decent breeder. Lesson learnt!
		
Click to expand...

Line breeding is not always terrible. Two totally unrelated dogs can breed awful pups as much as "inbred" onces can. My cousin bred two totally unrelated fluffy things (i dont know...lhasa or shiz or something) that were both passed as healthy. one pup died a few days after birth, one went blind and one had severe hip dysplasia. Other two so far seem healthy.


----------

