# National meeting. First fatality.



## Sugarplum Furry (4 April 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/horse-racing/22032810


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## lachlanandmarcus (4 April 2013)

Very sad, but it could have happened at home, the horse didn't fall at any fences, he was pulled up and then collapsed. Horses like humans can experience that.

I saw the same thing happen to a horse just on a sponsored ride where they were cantering along one minute, and the horse on the ground the next. Heartbreaking for all concerned. 

Glad that no fallers were seriously hurt although am getting mighty peed off with the jockeys continued irresponsibility at the start line.


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## bonny (4 April 2013)

This is goulish in my opinion.....do some of you just watch racing in case there's a fatality and then you can wring your hands over it and mutter about how bad racing is ? 100's of horses have died today for all sorts of reasons.....


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## cptrayes (4 April 2013)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			Very sad, but it could have happened at home, the horse didn't fall at any fences, he was pulled up and then collapsed. Horses like humans can experience that.

I saw the same thing happen to a horse just on a sponsored ride where they were cantering along one minute, and the horse on the ground the next. Heartbreaking for all concerned. 

Glad that no fallers were seriously hurt although am getting mighty peed off with the jockeys continued irresponsibility at the start line.
		
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This is true. I have myself had a six year old drop dead under me of heart failure on an ordinary hack.


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## Donnie Darco (4 April 2013)

bonny said:



			This is goulish in my opinion.....do some of you just watch racing in case there's a fatality and then you can wring your hands over it and mutter about how bad racing is ? 100's of horses have died today for all sorts of reasons.....
		
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Bloody well said.


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## It's Me Megan (4 April 2013)

Terrible for the connections but it could happen anywhere. Knew of a lovely horse who dropped dead on the yard eating hay


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## Echo Bravo (4 April 2013)

I think most of us watching the race realised something was wrong when Katie Walsh pulled him up, I thought he'd pulled a tendon. Remember Browns Gazette diving through the fence when he died of a heart attack. My cob just dropped down died and no struggle nothing when he had a heart attack.


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## TeamChaser (4 April 2013)

Call me cynical but can't help but notice that BBC seem to be all over this?! Couldn't be to do with them losing the Aintree coverage to C4 could it??


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## bonny (4 April 2013)

The BBC didn't lose it....they didn't want to continue covering racing at all. I think it's newsworthy because of who was riding and the fact that she's fancied for the national, is a woman and is getting alot of publicity anyway.


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## Alec Swan (4 April 2013)

So there was a horse who's heart gave out today.  He died doing what he was bred to do,  he was cared for by his trainer and staff,  and he'll be replaced.  He was an ornament to some,  and perhaps a passion,  to others.  He had a good life.  What else does anyone want for an animal?  

Alec.


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## Double_choc_lab (4 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			So there was a horse who's heart gave out today.  He died doing what he was bred to do,  he was cared for by his trainer and staff,  and he'll be replaced.  He was an ornament to some,  and perhaps a passion,  to others.  He had a good life.  What else does anyone want for an animal?  

Alec.
		
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Totally agree.  Also when your time's up what a wonderful way to go - instantly when the adrenaline is pumping or would we rather he was left to grow old, stiff and thin in a forgotten field.


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## Maesfen (4 April 2013)

Well said Alec.  I backed him too.


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## stencilface (4 April 2013)

Just had to comment on a friends fb status linked to this article and criticising the grand national. People get worked up, you can have a heart attack at any point ffs, they clearly hadn't read the article


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## Elf On A Shelf (4 April 2013)

Why read the article when you can jump to conclusions from just the headline!


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## dominobrown (4 April 2013)

EKW said:



			Why read the article when you can jump to conclusions from just the headline!
		
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My dog is a better journalist than whoever wrote that article (no offence dog!)


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## ladyt25 (4 April 2013)

Oh, how sad   Saw the interview with Katie pre-race. I am always so impressed though that the jockeys are so quick to know something's wrong and pull up - it can't be easy at all when a horse is running on adrenalin. RIP Battlefront.

On an aside, I saw one of the horse fall in the hurdle race earlier in the day - assume this was ok? Had to go out and they never mentioned if it had got up as the fall looked a bit awkward.


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## madmav (4 April 2013)

bonny said:



			The BBC didn't lose it....they didn't want to continue covering racing at all. I think it's newsworthy because of who was riding and the fact that she's fancied for the national, is a woman and is getting alot of publicity anyway.
		
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Oh yes they did lose it, out-bid by not very rich C4. Too busy handing out £10million to the likes of Stephen Poliakoff's awful dramas. £100million over-spend on its new London HQ, £60million over-spend on Glasgow HQ. Could go on. I passionately love the Beeb, but, honestly, they do make me cross.
Having said all that, actually prefer C4's coverage, apart from the ads.
Sorry, gone off topic. I wish Katie Walsh well and am sad for the horse.


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## Alec Swan (4 April 2013)

dominobrown said:



			My dog is a better journalist than whoever wrote that article (no offence dog!)
		
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Which reminds me of the quote;  The more that I see of People,  the more satisfied I am with my dog!

I may save it for my sig. 

Alec.


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## Dunlin (4 April 2013)

I knew a person that died young of a heart attack at work - BAN WORKING!


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## Elf On A Shelf (4 April 2013)

Dunlin said:



			BAN WORKING! 

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I could live with that!!!

Could we also ban football whilst we are at it seeing as Muamaba had a heart attack in the middle of the pitch with no green screens to surround him?!?


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## teapot (4 April 2013)

I'd support banning football


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## alliersv1 (5 April 2013)

ladyt25 said:



			On an aside, I saw one of the horse fall in the hurdle race earlier in the day - assume this was ok? Had to go out and they never mentioned if it had got up as the fall looked a bit awkward.
		
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All other fallers during the day were reported as being ok.


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## Mynstrel (5 April 2013)

TeamChaser said:



			Call me cynical but can't help but notice that BBC seem to be all over this?! Couldn't be to do with them losing the Aintree coverage to C4 could it??
		
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I must be cynical too then because I've thought exactly the same, right through the build up to this weekend they seem to have been focussing on the negatives (same as Cheltenham thinking about it) and you could just see how they were going to jump on anything that did happen.  

Mind you, I suppose it's only the same as how they turned against Crufts and dog showing as a whole rather then focus on the true problems when the problems with breeding were broadcast - shame they haven't used the same amount of effort to have controlled their staff in if all of these abuse claims are to be believed.


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## Hedgewitch13 (5 April 2013)

How very sad for all concerned  And especially after Katie's recent interview about racehorses...


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## ladyt25 (5 April 2013)

alliersv1 said:



			All other fallers during the day were reported as being ok. 

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Cheers for that. Nice to know   I'm always trying to look in the background after any falls to see if the horse is up.


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## fburton (5 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			So there was a horse who's heart gave out today.  He died doing what he was bred to do,  he was cared for by his trainer and staff,  and he'll be replaced.  He was an ornament to some,  and perhaps a passion,  to others.  He had a good life.  What else does anyone want for an animal?
		
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I agree quality of life is vastly more important than what happens at time of death. (Ideally, one doesn't want that to be unpleasant either!) In my opinion this applies equally to human and non-human animals.



Double_choc_lab said:



			Totally agree.  Also when your time's up what a wonderful way to go - instantly when the adrenaline is pumping or would we rather he was left to grow old, stiff and thin in a forgotten field.
		
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Not disagreeing with you at all - although, paradoxically, this argues for more rather than fewer racing fatalities, doesn't it?


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## Vicstress (5 April 2013)

Interesting post - I'm still anti-national....far to many horses die.  Whatever way you look at it the ratio of deaths to one race is still far to high.

ETS - obviously this is non race related and just a very sad thing to have happened.  Shame for the jockey.....and the owners/trainers etc.


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## Nicnac (5 April 2013)

Bit of a tabloid thread title. 

RIP Battlefront would have been a more worthy title for this wonderful horse doing what he was bred for.  

My thoughts to his connections.


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## MyBoyChe (5 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Which reminds me of the quote;  The more that I see of People,  the more satisfied I am with my dog!

Alec, Ive had this quote on my key ring for a lot of years, sadly it holds true the longer I have it!!

Very sad for the horses connections, it was obvious I think to most of us watching what was happening to him.  He wouldnt have known much about it, certainly didnt suffer and died doing what he was bred to do.  A horse at our yard died from a heart attack stood on the yard eating his hay, I doubt if said horse had ever galloped or jumped in his life!
		
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## Potato! (5 April 2013)

Didnt a top showjumper (was it Hickstead?) collapse and die of a heart attack while in the ring. Quick lets ban showjumping too!


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## Vicstress (5 April 2013)

Potato! said:



			Didnt a top showjumper (was it Hickstead?) collapse and die of a heart attack while in the ring. Quick lets ban showjumping too!
		
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Indeed, a heart attack is a heart attack....pitching horses into fences that are ridiculously high somewhat closes the probability of them making it though....


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## Potato! (5 April 2013)

Vicstress said:



			Indeed, a heart attack is a heart attack....pitching horses into fences that are ridiculously high somewhat closes the probability of them making it though....
		
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Yes but when the fences were bigger and more imposing there were far less fatilities. The race has not changed for the better in recent years and the horses look like whippets compaired to traditional national hunt horses.


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## Maesfen (5 April 2013)

Potato! said:



			Yes but when the fences were bigger and more imposing there were far less fatilities. The race has not changed for the better in recent years and the horses look like whippets compaired to traditional national hunt horses.
		
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Thank goodness for common sense and not hysteria for once although I don't think this thread has been as bad as usual - so far. .


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## ladyt25 (5 April 2013)

Vicstress said:



			Indeed, a heart attack is a heart attack....pitching horses into fences that are ridiculously high somewhat closes the probability of them making it though....
		
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We should definitely ban any puissance classes then. Oh and, as far as I am concerned many of those fences at the likes of Badminton and Burghley are ridiculously high and wide so we should certainly stop eventing!

If you are talking GN fences I don't think any of those fences are any bigger than at a 4* 3 day event. I don't see the difference, the horses are trained to jump these types of fences, the jockeys are used to jumping these types of fences - don't think you'd see them jumping Grand Prix showjumping classes though! 

"Ridiculously high" to one person is completely different to another.

A heart attack/ruptured aorta can happen at any time anywhere without any warning.


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## caramel (5 April 2013)

It is sad, saw a bit of him on the morning line before the race and he looked wonderful. Katie clearly thinks an awful lot of the horse and to head back to Ireland without him will be very difficult for all connections. He died doing what he enjoyed, he wouldn't have known and it was probably very quick.
These things happen, if he had a weakness, he could've gone on the lorry, or in the stable. Would've happened anytime. He meant a lot to a lot of people, and no doubt will have had the best preparation possible, and if there was any doubt they would've not run him. 

So sad, RIP Battlefront.


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## Vicstress (5 April 2013)

ladyt25 said:



			We should definitely ban any puissance classes then. Oh and, as far as I am concerned many of those fences at the likes of Badminton and Burghley are ridiculously high and wide so we should certainly stop eventing!

If you are talking GN fences I don't think any of those fences are any bigger than at a 4* 3 day event. I don't see the difference, the horses are trained to jump these types of fences, the jockeys are used to jumping these types of fences - don't think you'd see them jumping Grand Prix showjumping classes though! 

"Ridiculously high" to one person is completely different to another.

A heart attack/ruptured aorta can happen at any time anywhere without any warning.
		
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http://www.grand-national.net/the_fences.htm please excuse my copy and paste!!  All the fences average at 5 ft with a drop on the other side - I was always under the impression that 3 day events don't go anywhere near that height? The difference with cross country is that the horses are collected before the fence and the rider ensures they have control.....

Again the puissance is the same - the riders are jumping once fence (with a few smaller ones as a 'warm up' and the horse is taken into the fence in a 'controlled' manner.  Unless of course you're riding Ladina B!!! 

I didn't disagree with you about the heart attack 

Potato - sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying.....the jumps are causing less fatalities but yet it's still not improved - sorry if I'm missing your point!


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## Amymay (5 April 2013)

John McCrick is the racing expert on the radio.


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## Potato! (5 April 2013)

Vicstress said:



http://www.grand-national.net/the_fences.htm please excuse my copy and paste!!  All the fences average at 5 ft with a drop on the other side - I was always under the impression that 3 day events don't go anywhere near that height? The difference with cross country is that the horses are collected before the fence and the rider ensures they have control.....

Again the puissance is the same - the riders are jumping once fence (with a few smaller ones as a 'warm up' and the horse is taken into the fence in a 'controlled' manner.  Unless of course you're riding Ladina B!!! 

I didn't disagree with you about the heart attack 

Potato - sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying.....the jumps are causing less fatalities but yet it's still not improved - sorry if I'm missing your point!
		
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When the jumps were much bigger and more imposing the race was run much slower and the horses stood back and were set up for the fences much better. Now they have made them smaller and less imposing the race is run much much faster. Thats why the improvements are not made for the better.  since they started introducing flat bred horses into the face and made the jumps smaller the course rides much faster it's inevitable there are going to have more problems.


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## Vicstress (5 April 2013)

Potato! said:



			When the jumps were much bigger and more imposing the race was run much slower and the horses stood back and were set up for the fences much better. Now they have made them smaller and less imposing the race is run much much faster. Thats why the improvements are not made for the better.  since they started introducing flat bred horses into the face and made the jumps smaller the course rides much faster it's inevitable there are going to have more problems.
		
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That's interesting.  Have just looked at the stats on Grand Nat. deaths and apart from a few 'freak' years the deaths are pretty consistent.

It's interesting about introducing different lines into racing - there is a train of thought that the introduction of more warmbloods and less of your irish TB's into eventing has resulted in more deaths due to a warmbloods lack of a fifth leg.


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## Amymay (5 April 2013)

There is one simple way to make the GN safer.  You simply reduce the size of the field, and tighten up the entry rules.


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## Vicstress (5 April 2013)

amymay said:



			There is one simple way to make the GN safer.  You simply reduce the size of the field, and tighten up the entry rules.
		
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Good point, well made


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## bonny (5 April 2013)

They have tightened up the entry rules, it's much harder to get into now and the days are gone of no hopers taking part.


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## Amymay (5 April 2013)

bonny said:



			They have tightened up the entry rules, it's much harder to get into now and the days are gone of no hopers taking part.
		
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No, it's still a race where a few have a real chance, and the rest simply make up the field. The rules are not tight enough.


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## bonny (5 April 2013)

So how would you make it harder to get in ?


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## Caledonia (5 April 2013)

amymay said:



			There is one simple way to make the GN safer.  You simply reduce the size of the field, and tighten up the entry rules.
		
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The field will still bunch up, it's what happens in racing. No recent fatalities have been because of the size of the field, AFAIK.

I'd be very interested, given your comments yesterday, as to how you'd tighten up the qualification?


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## Amymay (5 April 2013)

I don't know really.  But you'd think that any horse that was running should have successfully finished a race of a similar distance over the past 12 months.  Finishing well within the top 6. It just seems to me that reading the description and form of some of the horses it seems unfair to enter them.  

Weird Al for instance - why is he in the race?

I know we're poles apart on this Caledonia.  And you know far more about it than I do.  But seems very unfair not to give some of these horses at least half a chance.....


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## bonny (5 April 2013)

Weird Al has got a chance, although his recent form isn't good he is a decent horse who is actually well named and he might just be the sort who takes to the fences. Or he might not in which case he'll sulk at the back and he pulled up.  It's a handicap at the end of the day and all the horses who have got in have high ratings....there isn't much more to it than that.  All of the horses running tomorrow have a chance, some more so than others but they have changed the entry requirements to stop complete no hopers.


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## Amymay (5 April 2013)

You watch, Weird Al will win tomorrow - and prove me totally wrong!


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## Caledonia (5 April 2013)

amymay said:



			I don't know really.  But you'd think that any horse that was running should have successfully finished a race of a similar distance over the past 12 months.  Finishing well within the top 6. It just seems to me that reading the description and form of some of the horses it seems unfair to enter them.  

Weird Al for instance - why is he in the race?

I know we're poles apart on this Caledonia.  And you know far more about it than I do.  But seems very unfair not to give some of these horses at least half a chance.....
		
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Primarily, there isn't another race that's as long as the National. So if they haven't run in the GN before, then that's an impossible qualification, as nothing would run in the race.

You admit you don't know what you're reading, yet you still say that some of them shouldn't be there? 

Weird Al will like the ground, is the third highest rated horse in the race, and has won £144,200. He's only ten, and his form is in G1 and 2 races. I've seen his recent runs, and he's not looked as good as he was. However, he's still a good horse, and the race might revitalise him - he ran well in it last year until he tipped up.

People don't run horses in this race knowing they won't cope. Weird Al is trained by ginger McCain's son, who has a bit of a clue about what's needed to win a GN or two!

It also costs at least 4.5K to run in the race, after the various forfeit stages, so owners don't do that just for the hell of it!

As regards trip, when the fences were bigger the first circuit was usually just horses hunting round, so it was considered an ideal race for horses with a trip of 2m4f. unfortunately, since the uninformed made a load of fuss, and the racecourse listened, the lowering of the fences has upped the speed at which they are ridden, so horses are travelling faster through the race, and those genuine 2m4 horses don't stay nowadays. 

The reason I'm responding to you is that you're making sweeping statements on the basis of very little knowledge, and this race is way too important to be dismissed in such a fashion.


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## Vicstress (5 April 2013)

amymay said:



			You watch, Weird Al will win tomorrow - and prove me totally wrong!
		
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Didn't a horse who pulled a milk cart once win?


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## Amymay (5 April 2013)

Fair points Caledonia.  Although I don't dismiss the race.

But realistically for the race to continue running, something will have to be done.  I suspect even one fatality tomorrow will ring the death knell for the race - and I for one would be very sad if that happened.


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## Dobiegirl (5 April 2013)

Amymay given your criteria for excluding no hopers a horse which would fall into that category was Mon Mome, he had slipped down the handicap and the rest as you know is history.


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## Amymay (5 April 2013)

Possibly Dobiegirl.  I don't know what his form was leading up to the National.


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## Caledonia (5 April 2013)

amymay said:



			Fair points Caledonia.  Although I don't dismiss the race.

But realistically for the race to continue running, something will have to be done.  I suspect even one fatality tomorrow will ring the death knell for the race - and I for one would be very sad if that happened.
		
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What it won't do is kill the race, but it will stop it being televised.


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## teapot (5 April 2013)

There's No Panic is being looked at by vets - fingers crossed all ok and that Sam TD gets up, horrendous fall


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## Crazy_cat_lady (5 April 2013)

Nasty pile up, thought Little Josh & Sam took nasty fall, didn't It's No Panic pull up rather than fall?


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## teapot (5 April 2013)

Unseated according to that. Hmmm.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (5 April 2013)

Fact they didn't show much of it on the replay may suggest something as usually they show various angles for falls. Hope I'm wrong


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## lcsd114 (5 April 2013)

It looks like Little Josh either refused or just completely missed his stride and hit the fence.  I hope Sam T-D and the horse are ok.  There's No Panic was an unseated rider.


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## lcsd114 (5 April 2013)

Damn Little Josh was put down.


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## Ktrice1994 (5 April 2013)

lcsd114 said:



			It looks like Little Josh either refused or just completely missed his stride and hit the fence.  I hope Sam T-D and the horse are ok.  There's No Panic was an unseated rider.
		
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Sadly Little Josh was put down after a shoulder injury


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## teapot (5 April 2013)

Yeah 

Channel 4 must have got horse name wrong when saying 'being seen to by vets'. Sad


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## Crazy_cat_lady (5 April 2013)

RIP Little Josh 

Nasty fall, did wonder at the time but looking back while they were racing it looked like they had all got up


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## 1stclassalan (5 April 2013)

bonny said:



			They have tightened up the entry rules, it's much harder to get into now and the days are gone of no hopers taking part.
		
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Do you know, back in my youth, I was down at the two mile start at Kempton Park - in those days that was almost into Hurst Park or out in the water works!! A wet day, gloom falling last race - a bumper - all the jocks having a giggle with Mr Starter - all of a sudden he calls out :- RIGHT, let's be havin' you - TRIERS TO THE FRONT! 

Who would get away with that these days - even in jest?


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## Fools Motto (5 April 2013)

Sad for all connections of Little Josh. Racing will get yet more bashing for it no doubt.


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## Caledonia (5 April 2013)

He broke his shoulder - was heartbreaking seeing Sparky having to ask on twitter for news. 

RIP, Little Josh, you were such a star.


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## Daffodil (5 April 2013)

Awful news.  One of  the bravest and a lovely horse.


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## alliersv1 (5 April 2013)

Very, very sad.
It did look like an awful fall.
Poor chap. Sleep tight.


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## Mariposa (5 April 2013)

Ktrice1994 said:



			Sadly Little Josh was put down after a shoulder injury 

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Oh no...  Poor Sam. I liked Little Josh, always thought he was a gutsy horse. My condolences to his connections.


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## Hedgewitch13 (5 April 2013)

Another wasted life


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## Caledonia (5 April 2013)

Hedgewitch13 said:



			Another wasted life 

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Really? So all the fun he had, the way he was cared for and loved was a waste, was it?


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## Elf On A Shelf (5 April 2013)

Hedgewitch13 said:



			Another wasted life 

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Not wasted. He gave a lot of people alot of joys and success, he had great fun doing it and he went doing what he loved best and he wouldn't known anything was wrong.


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## It's Me Megan (5 April 2013)

Hedgewitch13 said:



			Another wasted life 

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See to me a wasted life is seen in the poor horses and ponies that get bred indiscriminately by clueless idiots, who then precede to abandon them so they slowly starve to death or seen them live in Europe for me.

Not of a horse who was doted on by his groom, trainer, owners, jockey and fans, who had a wonderful life and was full of adrenaline so would have felt no pain when he died.

I know which horses I feel sorry for the most....


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## Hedgewitch13 (5 April 2013)

I'm sorry but I am allowed an opinion, even if it's not the same as yours! Another beautiful and brave horse is dead and I find that very sad seeing as it's all down to making money. So yes wasted and all for the greed of man, you really can't see that? But go ahead and slate me for having a heart. 

And for the record my old pony broke her shoulder at the age of 35 (the vet said she had a form of osteoporosis) and it wasn't pleasant for her or me


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## lachlanandmarcus (5 April 2013)

I think the issue people have is that you are regarding yourself as having a heart because you don't support the racing, whereas I certainly have a heart and I love it, having a heart is not exclusive to those who oppose jump racing. 

And pretty sickeningly Little Josh appears to have died because even in the RSPCAs words he went through the (new style) fence and then fell, whereas with the old fences he probably would have just stopped. Their words not mine!! No wonder they want to wait for the post mortem in full before they 'decide if any more changes are needed' blinking cheek, little josh would still be here if the change to the fence structure had never been made, in all likelihood!!

RIP Little Josh.


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## teapot (5 April 2013)

Argh the press are all over it now. Two horses died at the Chelt fest, no coverage then


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## Parachute (5 April 2013)

bonny said:



			This is goulish in my opinion.....do some of you just watch racing in case there's a fatality and then you can wring your hands over it and mutter about how bad racing is ? 100's of horses have died today for all sorts of reasons.....
		
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No, people watch racing for entertainment. Nobody on this forum wants to see a horse die, how heartless do you think we are? But it happens, and keen racing enthusiasts will see/read up on horses dying from racing and being horse lovers will post it on here. Yes 100's have horses have died today but we don't know about them, if we did they'd get a thread too.


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## Dobiegirl (5 April 2013)

So sad about Little Josh who was such a trier, the press seem fixated on another fatality and no mention of Sprinter Sacre.


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## ladyt25 (5 April 2013)

Really sad about Little Josh. I watched the race and it wasn't a nice fall and a couple of others were brought down as a result. Looked ok as they all got up so it's very sad that he had to be PTS. Not sure whether the fall itself caused the injury or if he was hit by another horse. Very sad.

However, there were 29 horses in the Topham today - to me that looked a much better number to be running over the National fences - in the main they all had space to see the fences. It looked a lot better than seeing 40 horses doing the same. I still don't see why they haven't made a reduction in runners for the GN the biggest change. That would make the most sense to me.


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## Hedgewitch13 (5 April 2013)

Believe me I used to love racing too! I almost sold my NH tb mare as a pointer but the people looking wanted something racing fit and ready to go. Oh and Daryl Jacobs did the try out on her over fences that she hadn't ever seen, at a height we hadn't ever done together (full up NH fences) and she kept up with the two in training horses. I was incredibly proud of my mare but in the end very glad she didn't go racing. 

Off tangent slightly I know but just wanted people to realise I'm not a fluffy bunny hugger just, as I've got older, had a big change of heart over the wastage that racing produces


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## Parachute (5 April 2013)

Hedgewitch13 said:



			Another wasted life 

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Hardly wasted is it? A horse who spent his life racing, doing something he enjoys rather than a horse who spends its life tethered to the roadside or being used to breed more unwanted horses again and again. No, I think he had a fantastic life compared to the majority of horses out there. Yes it's a shame he passed away, years before the average life expectancy of a horse, but he died doing what he loved.


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## Richie (5 April 2013)

I'm not in favour of this race in the current format. It's far too dangerous.

The organisers must think we are stupid when they say "the safety of the horses is paramount" .  Rubbish!

This morning I heard on the radio "a freak one off tragedy". Rubbish!

People who bet on this race are guilty of supporting it.

Horses deserve better.


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## Fools Motto (5 April 2013)

I think his shoulder went before he took off, hence why he didn't take off, and that alone made him 'fall' and then others who had nowhere to go went into him. Still very sad all the same. Bless him.


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## Parachute (5 April 2013)

Richie said:



			I'm not in favour of this race in the current format. It's far too dangerous.

The organisers must think we are stupid when they say "the safety of the horses is paramount" .  Rubbish!

This morning I heard on the radio "a freak one off tragedy". Rubbish!

People who bet on this race are guilty of supporting it.

Horses deserve better.
		
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At the end of the day, everyone is entitled to their own opinions! I personally cannot see the problem in horse racing if done safely.


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## FinalFurlong (5 April 2013)

lachlanandmarcus and bonny, I salute you. 

Well said. If a horse dies in a race people jump straight to the gun and fire it at the sport, though there are horses being neglected etc out there every single day and I really think animal aid etc should pay more attention to that. You guys said it


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## stencilface (5 April 2013)

Potato! said:



			Didnt a top showjumper (was it Hickstead?) collapse and die of a heart attack while in the ring. Quick lets ban showjumping too!
		
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Oh, and of course a footballer, that i only know his name due to incident - Fabrice Muamba - had a heart attack on the pitch, heart stopped for 78 mins (according to wiki) that happened in front of thousands, and I would guess on tv, quick lets ban football too


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## Parachute (5 April 2013)

Potato! - Yes, I think it was Hickstead. Collapsed, fitted and died infront of thousands. Truely sad but couldn't be helped! RIP Hickstead x x x


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## cptrayes (5 April 2013)

FinalFurlong said:



			lachlanandmarcus and bonny, I salute you. 

Well said. If a horse dies in a race people jump straight to the gun and fire it at the sport, though there are horses being neglected etc out there every single day and I really think animal aid etc should pay more attention to that. You guys said it
		
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It's back!  It's the two wrongs make a right argument 

The NH racing deaths are additional, not instead of.  Any other horse sport that killed 2% of the participants during the event year, and more put own at home directly due to injuries caused during the event, year after year after year would be stopped. NH racing continues because of the amount of money it generates.  If fox hunting had generated revenues like it for the economy, it would never have been banned.


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## Caledonia (5 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			It's back!  It's the two wrongs make a right argument 

The NH racing deaths are additional, not instead of.  Any other horse sport that killed 2% of the participants during the event year, and more put own at home directly due to injuries caused during the event, year after year after year would be stopped. NH racing continues because of the amount of money it generates.  If fox hunting had generated revenues like it for the economy, it would never have been banned.
		
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More utter bollo* peddled - 2%??? Please back that up.


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## bonny (5 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			It's back!  It's the two wrongs make a right argument 

The NH racing deaths are additional, not instead of.  Any other horse sport that killed 2% of the participants during the event year, and more put own at home directly due to injuries caused during the event, year after year after year would be stopped. NH racing continues because of the amount of money it generates.  If fox hunting had generated revenues like it for the economy, it would never have been banned.
		
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If you really believe that, then how do you explain point to pointing ? Not much revenue generated there ......


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## FinalFurlong (5 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			It's back!  It's the two wrongs make a right argument 

The NH racing deaths are additional, not instead of.  Any other horse sport that killed 2% of the participants during the event year, and more put own at home directly due to injuries caused during the event, year after year after year would be stopped. NH racing continues because of the amount of money it generates.  If fox hunting had generated revenues like it for the economy, it would never have been banned.
		
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I thought it was 0.2%  

To be honest, it doesn't matter how many times we argue over this we'll always disagree. Nobody will ever have the same opinions on everything, so ill carry on loving the sport and riding out my racehorses and you can carry on riding your horse and not watching the national


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## ladyt25 (5 April 2013)

I would just be interested to know what those people, who are so opposed to the GN (or indeed racing in general) do with their horses? What discipline do they compete in, if any? How is their horse kept - on it's on, on individual turnout, kept in a stable the majority of its life and is only 'exercised' in an arena, round and round in circles looking 'pretty'? How can people state one horse sport is cruel yet take part in another?
There are deaths in all aspects of owning and riding horses, that's something you need to be aware of when you take up the hobby/sport.

Those who love NH racing may not be dressage fans - which is 'crueller', letting a horse be a horse for the majority of its day (ie, having turnout with others, getting a good gallop etc etc) or having a horse kept in a stable 23 out of 24 hours a day, wrapping it up in cotton wool so it never ever possibly gets hurt, never letting it interact with other horses naturally, feedig it high energy feeds yet then filling its mouth with metal so that the human can have control and forcing the horse to working in an unnatural outline all in the name of prestige?

Everyone's going to have different views on racing, that's never going to change. However, as many people have pointed out on this thread, there's a hell of a lot worse going on in respect of treatment of horses (that maybe the RSPCA should focus on as opposed to the GN) and that concerns me an awful lot more than these horses who are cared for, loved and are doing something they enjoy.


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## Hedgewitch13 (5 April 2013)

Hmmm one footballer and one showjumper opposed to how many racehorses? Seriously is that all you can come up with to justify racing deaths? Don't forget those who have heart attacks out running, just to add to your figures. I really don't understand how some people are happy to gloss over horses dieing like they do, all for the sake of money. 'Oh the horse died doing something it loved'... Really? Wish I could read animal's minds like that...


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## MagicMelon (5 April 2013)

ladyt25 said:



			I would just be interested to know what those people, who are so opposed to the GN (or indeed racing in general) do with their horses? What discipline do they compete in, if any? How is their horse kept - on it's on, on individual turnout, kept in a stable the majority of its life and is only 'exercised' in an arena, round and round in circles looking 'pretty'? How can people state one horse sport is cruel yet take part in another?
There are deaths in all aspects of owning and riding horses, that's something you need to be aware of when you take up the hobby/sport.
		
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I am against the GN and hate racing in general.  Too many horses ruined before they should even have been backed IMO, too much whipping (saying the horse enjoys it, seriously?! A horse enjoys being smacked? Think I'd be banned if I did that eventing!) and simply too many horses being killed especially in the GN. There is worse cruelty of course going on in the world, but thats no reason for the RSPCA etc. to NOT try to make the GN safer!

As to your question, although I really dont see why it matters.  I compete, I was competing CIC* prior to having my baby (18 months ago) and competing BSJA.  I am currently competing BSJA with my other horse and plan to introduce him to XC soon.  Yes, before you say it I know horses are killed eventing - but nowhere near as many as in racing.  I keep my horses out 24/7, I've just spent 6 months turning my new horse who was previously stabled the majority of the time, to being happy out all the time.  I disagree totally with any horse (competition horse or not) being stabled a lot, cruelty IMO.


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## Caledonia (5 April 2013)

Hedgewitch13 said:



			Hmmm one footballer and one showjumper opposed to how many racehorses? Seriously is that all you can come up with to justify racing deaths? Don't forget those who have heart attacks out running, just to add to your figures. I really don't understand how some people are happy to gloss over horses dieing like they do, all for the sake of money. 'Oh the horse died doing something it loved'... Really? Wish I could read animal's minds like that...
		
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All for the sake of money? WHAT money? Go on, who makes money out of the National?


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## BigBuck's (5 April 2013)

Harsh but true fact: there are far, far worse fates for a horse (or any animal) than a comparatively quick death of which it has no fear or foreboding, particularly when it happens with the adrenaline flowing during participation of the activity for which it was bred, trained and brought to peak fitness, and when the final minutes take place under experienced veterinary supervision where needed.  That doesn't mean it isn't sad or that Little Josh won't be mourned by those close to him.  Unfortunately however humans have a tendency to fear death above all else so often find that a difficult concept to grasp.

Unlike the vast majority of horses in this country nowadays, racehorses are working animals not pets.  They are (in the main, notwithstanding the few undesirable but inevitable bad apples that unfortunately crop up in every situation) cared for, respected and even loved but it tends to be an unsentimental love.  No-one in racing wants to lose a horse in these circumstances and the whole industry works together to minimise risk, but risk nevertheless remains as it does in any high-speed, high-impact sport - indeed, as it does in every walk of life.

RIP Little Josh, you brought a lot of people a lot of pleasure and you will be missed by fans and connections alike.


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## FinalFurlong (5 April 2013)

Can I just say hedgewitch, you can't make a horse do something it doesn't want to do. Especially TB's. I've rode racehorses myself and I can assure you that. 

And for anyone's information, the whip is a incredibly thin piece of plastic wrapped in foam. And if anyone does not believe me, I will cut my racing whip in half and send it you in the post. Or you can wack me with it and see if it hurts me


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## Hedgewitch13 (5 April 2013)

FinalFurlong - I've ridden for 45 years and owned for over 30. My last horse was an NH bred TB - and believe me I know you can't make a horse do what it doesn't want to!!! 

ETS I bought her at 6 months and had her til she was 15 - if ever a horse tried a human out she was the one! Loved her for all her daft moods.


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## FinalFurlong (5 April 2013)

Then you'll know hedgewitch, that if a horse didn't want to race it wouldn't


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## Hedgewitch13 (5 April 2013)

Seriously Caledonia??  Lets see... Advertisers, winning bookies, winning punters, winning trainer, owner and jockey. Or do you think they all do it for nothing?


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## BigBuck's (5 April 2013)

FinalFurlong said:



			Then you'll know hedgewitch, that if a horse didn't want to race it wouldn't 

Click to expand...

And indeed, in Sprinter Sacre's race today, Mad Moose dug his toes in at the start and refused to race.


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## Hedgewitch13 (5 April 2013)

FF you will also know that they are herd animals and don't like being left behind so go with the crowd. I always find it amusing when a horse doesn't start - that's the one with brains 

Anyway some of us will love racing, and some of us won't because they don't like horses losing their lives for man's profit. it just makes me sad


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## FinalFurlong (5 April 2013)

Somebody on here in another GN thread calculated how much it is worth to get a horse to the national including training fees, qualifying race fees etc etc without including vets and farrier then compared it to the national prize money. I seem to remember there was either a very slim profit margin or not one at all.


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## teapot (5 April 2013)

FinalFurlong said:



			Can I just say hedgewitch, you can't make a horse do something it doesn't want to do. Especially TB's. I've rode racehorses myself and I can assure you that. 

And for anyone's information, the whip is a incredibly thin piece of plastic wrapped in foam. And if anyone does not believe me, I will cut my racing whip in half and send it you in the post. Or you can wack me with it and see if it hurts me
		
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I'd rather be hit with a race whip than a normal standard jump whip! The BHB rules regarding whips are wel documented and jockeys will be pounced upon. 

As for making money - EKW did a great post about the money involved.


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## cptrayes (5 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			More utter bollo* peddled - 2%??? Please back that up. 

Click to expand...

The industry publishes year after year statistics of one in 250  starters dying during a race.  If an average  NH horse runs five times a year (my guess, which I have often stated and have not yet been corrected on, please feel free to do so  if it is wrong) , then at the end of the year 2 percent of horses which were in training at the start of the year and ran will have died on the racecourse.


There are  more, of course, which are put down at home directly due to injuries sustained during the race.

I wonder how many people who argue so vehemently that racing deaths are acceptable are completely ignorant as to how many there actually are.


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## FinalFurlong (5 April 2013)

Yes it was EKW with the money post.
And now its up to mad moose whether he wants to refuse again, and then its up to his owners what they want to do. I can't tell them to retire him!


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## ladyt25 (5 April 2013)

MagicMelon said:



			I am against the GN and hate racing in general.  Too many horses ruined before they should even have been backed IMO, too much whipping (saying the horse enjoys it, seriously?! A horse enjoys being smacked? Think I'd be banned if I did that eventing!) and simply too many horses being killed especially in the GN. There is worse cruelty of course going on in the world, but thats no reason for the RSPCA etc. to NOT try to make the GN safer!

As to your question, although I really dont see why it matters.  I compete, I was competing CIC* prior to having my baby (18 months ago) and competing BSJA.  I am currently competing BSJA with my other horse and plan to introduce him to XC soon.  Yes, before you say it I know horses are killed eventing - but nowhere near as many as in racing.  I keep my horses out 24/7, I've just spent 6 months turning my new horse who was previously stabled the majority of the time, to being happy out all the time.  I disagree totally with any horse (competition horse or not) being stabled a lot, cruelty IMO.
		
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How do you know though how many horses are killed/die in eventing or indeed at any other competitive event in the country? There are hundreds of shows and events involving horses every year and many horses die, in various circumstances. Likewise many die out hacking, either of natural causes or through accidents. Plus, of course, horses die every day in fields through injury, illness, neglect etc etc.

The difference is I suppose, in racing you can get statistics but it's hard to get the same for all other events isn't it. Does anyone know how many dressage, showjumping, eventing, showing, driving horses died of heart attacks, broken limbs etc over the last few years at every level of competition? No, I suspect not because it's just not recorded.


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## teapot (5 April 2013)

As for stats, actually it was 0.25% for 2012 out of all starters on both flat and jump courses. Not 2%.

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/FatalitiesGraphLarge2012.jpg

The BHB goes on to write that for jump racing, it's just over 4 fatalities for every 1000 starters. 

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/injuries-fatalities.asp


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## Alec Swan (5 April 2013)

Chanel 4,  Preparing a horse for the National.  Rebecca Curtis the trainer,  and the Vet who did "Inside Natures Giants".  If you miss it,  it'll be on 13 at 21:00 hrs.

Alec.


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## Caledonia (5 April 2013)

Hedgewitch13 said:



			Seriously Caledonia??  Lets see... Advertisers, winning bookies, winning punters, winning trainer, owner and jockey. Or do you think they all do it for nothing?
		
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So - where do the owners and trainers make big money? Given that horses cost a LOT to maintain at that level. And jockeys only get a set amount per ride - most struggle to stay alive on that, after diesel, valet fees etc. 

Punters, bookies and advertisers are only ligging. They're a byproduct of racing, not the lifeblood. Racing existed long before organsised gambling did.


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## Hedgewitch13 (5 April 2013)

Teapot!! I didn't know you had a thing about whips - naughty girl


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## Hedgewitch13 (5 April 2013)

Ohhh so they all do it for free - new one on me Caledonia! Definitely a mug's game then...


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## cptrayes (5 April 2013)

teapot said:



			As for stats, actually it was 0.25% for 2012 out of all starters on both flat and jump courses. Not 2%.

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/FatalitiesGraphLarge2012.jpg

The BHB goes on to write that for jump racing, it's just over 4 fatalities for every 1000 starters. 

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/injuries-fatalities.asp

Click to expand...

Yeeeeees.....   4 in 1000 is 1 in 250, just what I said.  If the average is 5 runs per horse then 2% of NH horses in a year die on the course.

It's a much  harder figure to stomach when you start talking about horses, not starters, isn't it?


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## teapot (5 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			So - where do the owners and trainers make big money? Given that horses cost a LOT to maintain at that level. And jockeys only get a set amount per ride - most struggle to stay alive on that, after diesel, valet fees etc. 

Punters, bookies and advertisers are only ligging. They're a byproduct of racing, not the lifeblood. Racing existed long before organsised gambling did.
		
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Looks like I'll have to go to this then: http://events.history.ac.uk/event/show/9065 

Racing's been bet on for centuries...


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## Caledonia (5 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Yeeeeees.....   4 in 1000 is 1 in 250, just what I said.  If the average is 5 runs per horse then 2% of NH horses in a year die on the course.

It's a much  harder figure to stomach when you start talking about horses, not starters, isn't it?
		
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NONSENSE - dear god - you are quite barking!


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## stencilface (5 April 2013)

BigBuck's said:



			And indeed, in Sprinter Sacre's race today, Mad Moose dug his toes in at the start and refused to race.
		
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That made me laugh too, naughty pony!


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## cptrayes (5 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			Punters, bookies and advertisers are only ligging. They're a byproduct of racing, not the lifeblood.
		
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Racecourse based racing cannot exist in its present from without betting profits.


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## BigBuck's (5 April 2013)

Hedgewitch13 said:



			Ohhh so they all do it for free - new one on me Caledonia! Definitely a mug's game then...
		
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That's quite clearly not what Caledonia said, so you're simply making yourself look silly now.

It is an unarguable fact that the majority of owners in racing make a loss from their ownership activities.  It is not a money-making venture, it is an expensive hobby. Prize money in the UK is notoriously low compared to most other countries and at the 'everyday' level away from the top festivals such as Aintree, Cheltenham, Royal Ascot etc, even winning a race will barely cover the costs of entry, training, diesel etc.  And as there can only be one winner per race, that means the rest of the field are running to make a loss.

With the exception of a small handful at the very top of the sport, the majority of trainers and jockeys make a basic living out of racing, no more than that.  More trainers have relinquished their licences due to the difficulties of making it pay than have applied for new ones.

In this country, people are involved in racing because they love it, not because they expect to make their fortunes at it.  The odd one or two will, but they are the lucky exceptions rather than the rule.


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## cptrayes (5 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			NONSENSE - dear god - you are quite barking! 

Click to expand...


Please explain where I am wrong Caledonia?

I suspect it is a shock to you to realise that the stats published are not for horses, but for each time every horse starts. You cannot get away from this, if an average NH horse runs five times in a year then at the end of  a year 2% of horses will die on the course.

If you are horrified by that figure, join the club. But you cannot simply pretend that it is nonsense, it is directly from what BHB publish.


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## Hedgewitch13 (5 April 2013)

Oh am I BB? I thought my point was quite valid. Of course people make money out of racing, and plenty of it otherwise it wouldn't continue! Nothing like getting personal huh? Luckily your opinion of me means sod all


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## teapot (5 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Yeeeeees.....   4 in 1000 is 1 in 250, just what I said.  If the average is 5 runs per horse then 2% of NH horses in a year die on the course.

It's a much  harder figure to stomach when you start talking about horses, not starters, isn't it?
		
Click to expand...

I'm ignoring the average 5 run per horse thing and going by that graph alone. I read that graph as percentage fatalities from total runners each year. 2012 was roughly 0.25% of all runners. 

Unless I'm reading it completely wrong and I can't see why? 


Either way, the fatality rate in racing doesn't bother me personally. Harsh and as callous as it sounds. I'd rather they went that way then end up as poor uncared for stock on Dragon Driving, or in the hands of the RSPCA.


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## amage (5 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Please explain where I am wrong Caledonia?

I suspect it is a shock to you to realise that the stats published are not for horses, but for each time every horse starts. You cannot get away from this, if an average NH horse runs five times in a year then at the end of  a year 2% of horses will die on the course.

If you are horrified by that figure, join the club. But you cannot simply pretend that it is nonsense, it is directly from what BHB publish.
		
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Very difficult to say the average horse runs five times per year. Certainly some would, some could run a lot more and most could run less. This is why the stats are published according to death per starters, it is a far more accurate figure. 1/250 is 0.4%. There is a far far greater number of horses race than event/jump and deaths are all recorded and the vast majority is televised so it is far more transparent. This is a debate that no side will ever convince the other of their point. 

Little Josh was a much loved family trained/ridden horse and his demise is very sad. After the horrible fall (and I agree with whoever said he broke his shoulder on the non-takeoff  - it certainly looked that way) I for one am very glad Sam Twiston-Davies walked away unhurt. Ruby is also to be commended for quickly rushing to the horses aid when he was unseated at the same fence. The loss of any horse is sad but it's outside the back door.


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## BigBuck's (5 April 2013)

Hedgewitch13 said:



			Of course people make money out of racing, and plenty of it otherwise it wouldn't continue!
		
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Industry figures for 2006/07:

The average cost of keeping a horse in training for one year was £18,600.

The average prize money per race (to be divided between all placed runners, which can go down to sixth place and out of which has to be paid jockey's fee and industry contributions) was £11,700.

20,500 different horses ran in at least one race.

5,800 of those horses, or just over 25%, won at least one race.

That left nearly 15,000 horses who did not win a single race.

You do the maths.


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## Caledonia (5 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Please explain where I am wrong Caledonia?

I suspect it is a shock to you to realise that the stats published are not for horses, but for each time every horse starts. You cannot get away from this, if an average NH horse runs five times in a year then at the end of  a year 2% of horses will die on the course.

If you are horrified by that figure, join the club. But you cannot simply pretend that it is nonsense, it is directly from what BHB publish.
		
Click to expand...

No shocks here - you apply the same crass dogmatism to this as you do everything else that you don't agree with. 

FWIW - you need to take the number of horses that have run in a year, and divide by the fatalities, not some random figure you've invented to try and 
justify your claptrap!


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## cptrayes (5 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			No shocks here - you apply the same crass dogmatism to this as you do everything else that you don't agree with. 

FWIW - you need to take the number of horses that have run in a year, and divide by the fatalities, not some random figure you've invented to try and 
justify your claptrap!
		
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1. Please do not be rude Caledonia.

2. You are correct, that would be the right figure. Can you get the BHB to publish it please?  They prefer to publish only the 1 in 250 starters figure.  I'm  not surprised, because the % of horses is a much more disturbing figure.


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## Caledonia (5 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			1. Please do not be rude Caledonia.

2. You are correct, that would be the right figure. Can you get the BHB to publish it please?  They prefer to publish only the 1 in 250 starters figure.  I'm  not surprised, because the % of horses is a much more disturbing figure.
		
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They do publish it - quite why you want to lie about figures, and then accuse the BHA of being disingenous is a bit of a mystery.


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## cptrayes (5 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			They do publish it - quite why you want to lie about figures, and then accuse the BHA of being disingenous is a bit of a mystery.
		
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WHERE?

Please do not accuse me of lying again.


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## Caledonia (5 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Can you get the BHB to publish it please?  They prefer to publish only the 1 in 250 starters figure.  I'm  not surprised, because the % of horses is a much more disturbing figure.
		
Click to expand...

There?


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## pines of rome (5 April 2013)

You only have to look on here to see how many are lost every day!https://www.facebook.com/inmemoryofourracehorses?ref=stream


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## cptrayes (5 April 2013)

teapot said:



			I'm ignoring the average 5 run per horse thing and going by that graph alone. I read that graph as percentage fatalities from total runners each year. 2012 was roughly 0.25% of all runners. 

Unless I'm reading it completely wrong and I can't see why? 


Either way, the fatality rate in racing doesn't bother me personally. Harsh and as callous as it sounds. I'd rather they went that way then end up as poor uncared for stock on Dragon Driving, or in the hands of the RSPCA.
		
Click to expand...

It's 0. 25 of all starters not of all horses which run at least once in a year. Each time the horse runs there is a 1 in 250, or 0.25, or 4 in 1000 chance that it will die on the course.

Dragon Driving? Sorry, that's completely unconnected and irrelevant to racing deaths.


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## cptrayes (5 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			There? 

Click to expand...

The number of horse deaths as percentage of horses in training which ran is not available anywhere that I can see. Where are you looking??

If it was, then I would quote it and not keep guessing at the average number of starts to try to work the percentage of horse deaths out.


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## dressedkez (5 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			1. Please do not be rude Caledonia.

2. You are correct, that would be the right figure. Can you get the BHB to publish it please?  They prefer to publish only the 1 in 250 starters figure.  I'm  not surprised, because the % of horses is a much more disturbing figure.
		
Click to expand...

cptrayes - you simply want to stop horse racing.......(it would seem) what you hope to achieve from that for general horse welfare - I am not sure....as well as the economic impact on jobs etc. , if you had your way. Your argiments are generally - well generailist, and not terribly well grounded (that I can see) 
I would prefer you to far wider research on horse ownership per se, to judge on 'general' wastage - rather than just focus in on a relatively small wastage effect (in terms of equine deaths) related to horse racing/ training.
I hated seeing Little Josh meet his end today (relatively high profile horse) I hate to see any equne / human end their life, when maybe they have a few more years / decades to enjoy - but it happens - and we do know that that LJ was a cosseted animal up to death,  and the end was quick - there are many more equines and humans who cannot experience the same - I got the kids to google tonight how many horses died in the GN when Mr Frisk won on from ground (never to be allowed again.......) it was two - the same as lat year, and the year before - going to quick? The year when the race should not have been allowed to go ahead (aka Jenny Pitman) and Red Maurauder won - it seems all were all OK - though only 2 completed, and a couple were re-mounted (not allowed now)
I am gettting to the point that I am dreading tomorrows GN (having always loved it) because if a horse is killed - then that is far more in the headlines then the horse that won - how sad is that? 
Final point ........439 horse have run in this race providing 7 fatalities since 2000- 2010.  On average 4 fatalities for every 1,000 horses taking place in a modern day steeple chase race - how does that stat equate to horses simply breaking a leg in a field?


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## cptrayes (5 April 2013)

These deaths are additional not instead of.

The statistic published by the industry is four in one thousand starters, not horses.

By your figures it's sixteen in a thousand for the National.


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## Sherri (5 April 2013)

I wonder how the GN statistic on fatalties compares to the Velka Pardubice, I can't find many stats on that race but on watching the 2 events the latter seems a slower race.


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## dressedkez (5 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			These deaths are additional not instead of.

The statistic published by the industry is four in one thousand starters, not horses.

By your figures it's sixteen in a thousand for the National.
		
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My figures? I freely admit I am no stastitition, but I like to feel that I am looking at a qualative picture here, as well as quantative......


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## Elf On A Shelf (5 April 2013)

The Velka Padurbice is much much worse than the GN! Hate it!


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## Sherri (5 April 2013)

But is the Velka worse? I can't find any info and would be interested to know


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## Elf On A Shelf (5 April 2013)

Oh yes! Unsafe fences, unsafe jockeys, trainers, horses - you name it, it's dodgy! But the prize money s good!


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## Sherri (6 April 2013)

EKW Is it worse for the horse, I've found one figure of 52 horse deaths in 120years of the race! but can't find anything to back this up. But if this is true it's a safer race for the horses.


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## Elf On A Shelf (6 April 2013)

They cross differing terrain which will lead to tendon problems. The jockeys aren't yup to scratch for the most part. The fences are better now than before yes. The last time I watched the race a good few years ago a man was seen remounting his horse and battering it even though it had a broken leg. Not as many die in the race itself no but the long term problems this race creates isn't worth it.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NgoigVSKZYE


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## Mondy (6 April 2013)

dressedkez said:



			I am gettting to the point that I am dreading tomorrows GN (having always loved it) because if a horse is killed - then that is far more in the headlines then the horse that won - how sad is that?
		
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Not sad at all. 
It is merely a sign that this nation is developing (slowly) into one capable of feeling (at least subconsciously) queasy with the ethical minefield that is the National.


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## Caledonia (6 April 2013)

Mondy said:



			Not sad at all. 
It is merely a sign that this nation is developing (slowly) into one capable of feeling (at least subconsciously) queasy with the ethical minefield that is the National.
		
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Nope, it's a sign of shoddy journalism. The papers only want to bash racing. They are not interested in any alternative viewpoint.


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## Caledonia (6 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			The number of horse deaths as percentage of horses in training which ran is not available anywhere that I can see. Where are you looking??

If it was, then I would quote it and not keep guessing at the average number of starts to try to work the percentage of horse deaths out.
		
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The BHA accurate stats are that 0.2% of all runners lose their lives. You are plucking random figures out the air, which is entirely disingenuous. It's impossible to average for each horse across the board, because they all have different schedules.


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## cptrayes (6 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			The BHA accurate stats are that 0.2% of all runners lose their lives. You are plucking random figures out the air, which is entirely disingenuous. It's impossible to average for each horse across the board, because they all have different schedules.
		
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Please point me to that. The figure I see quoted for NH starters is 1in in 250 or 0.4

Are  you including flat races?

It is impossible to average, yes.  So why is the true figure not available? Without it, a guess at an average is the closest we can come to working out the number of horse deaths as a percentage.


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## Caledonia (6 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Please point me to that. The figure I see quoted for NH starters is 1in in 250 or 0.4

Are  you including flat races?

It is impossible to average, yes.  So why is the true figure not available? Without it, a guess at an average is the closest we can come to working out the number of horse deaths as a percentage.
		
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I was using the all runners one, yes. 

I did work out the fatalities as a percentage on the GN course last year - will go and see if I can find it.


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## Caledonia (6 April 2013)

Last 12 years, with maximum field.

2012 2 40 (1 BD caused by a loose horse, 1 fell loose 4 fences later)
2011 2 40 ( 1 fell, 1 BD)
2010 0 40 
2009 1 40 (heart attack after finish)
2008 0 40
2007 0 40 
2006 1 40 (fell 1st)
2005 0 40
2004 0 40
2003 1 40 (injured loose)
2002 2 40 (both fell)
2001 0 40
2000 0 40

So over the last 12 years there has been a fatality percentage of 1.875%

Now, major changes (supposed improvements) were made for the 2011 race, and for the 2012 one, and four horses were lost after the changes, giving a horrifying 5% for the last two years.  

Taking the ten years from 2000 to 2010, the percentage is 1.25%

If only they had left well alone, Dooney's Gate, Synchronised and According to Pete may well have still been with us.


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## Scarlett (6 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			Last 12 years, with maximum field.

2012 2 40 (1 BD caused by a loose horse, 1 fell loose 4 fences later)
2011 2 40 ( 1 fell, 1 BD)
2010 0 40 
2009 1 40 (heart attack after finish)
2008 0 40
2007 0 40 
2006 1 40 (fell 1st)
2005 0 40
2004 0 40
2003 1 40 (injured loose)
2002 2 40 (both fell)
2001 0 40
2000 0 40

So over the last 12 years there has been a fatality percentage of 1.875%

Now, major changes (supposed improvements) were made for the 2011 race, and for the 2012 one, and four horses were lost after the changes, giving a horrifying 5% for the last two years.  

Taking the ten years from 2000 to 2010, the percentage is 1.25%

If only they had left well alone, Dooney's Gate, Synchronised and According to Pete may well have still been with us.
		
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Very interesting to read those stats - thanks. It did seem like as they try to make it safer they are making things worse, and it appears that is the case...


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## Alec Swan (6 April 2013)

Any point is provable by statistics,  and I wouldn't be surprised to find that "The Flat Earth Society",  rely upon such evidence. 

Alec.


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## fburton (6 April 2013)

About the Velka Padurbice...



Sherri said:



			Is it worse for the horse, I've found one figure of 52 horse deaths in 120years of the race!
		
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But is it worse _for the horse_? Why?? Horses have to die sometime, so surely it's better that die 'doing something they love' (a valid argument although I don't necessarily agree with the 'love' part) than grow old and arthritic in a field. Or is there an even better alternative?


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## fburton (6 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Any point is provable by statistics,  and I wouldn't be surprised to find that "The Flat Earth Society",  rely upon such evidence. 

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Alex, I hope that was said tongue-in-cheek, because by that argument we might as well abolish all figures of a statistical nature because they have no useful meaning.


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## Fellewell (6 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Any point is provable by statistics,  and I wouldn't be surprised to find that "The Flat Earth Society",  rely upon such evidence. 

Alec. 

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Way to go Alec! 

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics and these are generally perpetrated by sanctimonious, Guardian reading, social scientists


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## Alec Swan (6 April 2013)

fburton said:



			Alex, I hope that was said tongue-in-cheek, because by that argument we might as well abolish all figures of a statistical nature because they have no useful meaning.
		
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fburton,  when statistics are used to prove a point,  then an entirely different set can be pulled from a sleeve,  to disprove the first set.  If you don't believe me,  just look at _Successive_ government unemployment figures,  or trade figures,  and they're all statistics. 

Alec.


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## fburton (6 April 2013)

Can we have the have the true statistics for the % of _horses_ that lose their lives racing then, please? I assume it must be greater than the % of _starters_, because many horses race more than just once. The question is how much greater.


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## teapot (6 April 2013)

fburton said:



			Can we have the have the true statistics for the % of _horses_ that lose their lives racing then, please? I assume it must be greater than the % of _starters_, because many horses race more than just once. The question is how much greater.
		
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What I can't work out is whether starters means number of horses than run once, or does it include every horse that starts in every race during the year (as that would include multiple runs)...

Anyone know?


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## Elf On A Shelf (6 April 2013)

If the % of fatalities is higher than the % of starters then we wouldn't actually be racing any horses ...


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## Caledonia (6 April 2013)

EKW said:



			If the % of fatalities is higher than the % of starters then we wouldn't actually be racing any horses ...
		
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LOL


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## BigBuck's (6 April 2013)

fburton said:



			Can we have the have the true statistics for the % of _horses_ that lose their lives racing then, please? I assume it must be greater than the % of _starters_, because many horses race more than just once. The question is how much greater.
		
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The last year I have statistics for is 2011.  In that year, 20,714 different horses raced in at least one race (Flat and NH combined).  157 horses died on the track.

So 0.75% of all individual horses who raced in 2011 died on the racecourse.

ETA:  The average number of runs per horse in 2011 was 4.35 (Flat & NH combined) so 90,105 starters.  As a percentage of starters, fatalities number 0.17%.


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## silu (6 April 2013)

Well it ain't the race it was. The fences looked really soft and some of the horses got away with some terrible errors. Hopefully all horses and jockeys are safe but NOT a true jumping test any longer, more a true staying test.


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## Parachute (6 April 2013)

silu said:



			Well it ain't the race it was. The fences looked really soft and some of the horses got away with some terrible errors. Hopefully all horses and jockeys are safe but NOT a true jumping test any longer, more a true staying test.
		
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I'm happy it was safer this year and touch wood I don't think there were any fatalities this year!!


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## ridefast (6 April 2013)

That loose horse that came second though, which horse was that? I'm impressed! It jumped all the jumps, found accelleration at the end and kept itself safe all through the race. Shame the jockey fell off, it might have won!


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## Parachute (6 April 2013)

4.36pm BST All the runners came back safe and sound
Reports Clare Balding.


Every horse returned safe.


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## cptrayes (6 April 2013)

BigBuck's said:



			The last year I have statistics for is 2011.  In that year, 20,714 different horses raced in at least one race (Flat and NH combined).  157 horses died on the track.

So 0.75% of all individual horses who raced in 2011 died on the racecourse.

ETA:  The average number of runs per horse in 2011 was 4.35 (Flat & NH combined) so 90,105 starters.  As a percentage of starters, fatalities number 0.17%.
		
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 This figure is completely useless. No-one has a problem with horse deaths on the track in flat races that I know of. To fail to split NH jump racing and all forms of  flat racing is simply to obfuscate the issue, since the overwhelming majority of deaths occur in NH jump races.


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## BigBuck's (6 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			This figure is completely useless. No-one has a problem with horse deaths on the track in flat races that I know of. To fail to split NH jump racing and all forms of  flat racing is simply to obfuscate the issue, since the overwhelming majority of deaths occur in NH jump races.
		
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Well isn't that a lovely sentiment.  So as far as you and your cronies are concerned, the death of a Flat racehorse is less important than that of a jumps horse?


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## stencilface (6 April 2013)

BigBuck's said:



			Well isn't that a lovely sentiment.  So as far as you and your cronies are concerned, the death of a Flat racehorse is less important than that of a jumps horse?
		
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But of course, if a 2yos fetlock shatters, no matter. A 13yo jump horse breaks a leg, ban racing!


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## Caledonia (6 April 2013)

BigBuck's said:



			Well isn't that a lovely sentiment.  So as far as you and your cronies are concerned, the death of a Flat racehorse is less important than that of a jumps horse?
		
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Doesn't suit her agenda, does it?


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## Elf On A Shelf (6 April 2013)

In reality its easier to fix a broken jumps horse than it is a flat horse because the ground is softer and the speed less. Plus you go into jumping for the long run and wont just shunt off a horse because they have a short race career.


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## cptrayes (6 April 2013)

Stencilface said:



			But of course, if a 2yos fetlock shatters, no matter. A 13yo jump horse breaks a leg, ban racing! 

Click to expand...




BigBuck's said:



			Well isn't that a lovely sentiment.  So as far as you and your cronies are concerned, the death of a Flat racehorse is less important than that of a jumps horse?
		
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We all know that horses die all the time. I have always made it clear that my issue with NH jump racing is that the proportion of horses which die is an order of magnitude greater than the proportion of horses that die doing any other sport. For me this is compounded by the fact that  the deaths are as a result of these animals being used as the product by which to generate huge betting revenues, and that the deaths would not occur if the money issue was removed, because the racing would stop if it was  not financed by betting money.

Completely separate to NH racing,  I do also have an issue with 18 month old horses being broken and ridden and raced at two, but not with older horses flat racing, where the risk seems to me to be little greater, if any, than, for example, hunting or eventing. 

The true cost of NH jump racing to horses expressed as a proportion of all horses in training who raced over fences or hurdles at least once needs to be known. To combine the figure with flat race deaths produces only a completely and utterly meaningless statistic. To publish only deaths per  number of starters is disengenuous because it sounds so much more acceptable to say 1 in 250 starters than 1 in 50 horses.


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## BigBuck's (6 April 2013)

It was not disingenuous, I was responding to a request for statistics which did not specify a split.  Pardon me for thinking all horse deaths are equal and should all be acknowledged.

The 2011 figures for NH racing are 129 fatalities from 9,523 individual horses to race at least once over hurdles or fences, or 1.35%.

There is meaning in publishing fatalities per starters as most horses don't only run once so it gives a view of the risk factor of the overall sport.  It stands to reason that at an individual level, the more times you engage in an activity that carries risk, the more likely the chances of something going wrong (aka the law of averages).

For completeness, the NH fatalities per starter figure for 2011 was 0.41%, based on an average number of runs of 3.3 per horse, or 31,426 starters.


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## Dobiegirl (6 April 2013)

A wonderful race with a very worthy winner and all horses and jockeys back safe.

CPTrayes every year you ask the same questions(boring) and I have told you before to contact the BHA, how you can expect anyone on here who is not connected the the BHA to give you the figures you want is I believe disengenous. If you cant be arsed so be it but stop asking us.


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## BigBuck's (6 April 2013)

I appreciate the sentiment Dobiegirl and certainly agree with the rest of your post but out of interest, you might be surprised to know that all the data I have quoted is published online.  The runners / starters / average starts per runner per annum are from the BHA's website, and the number of racecourse deaths are from Animal Aid's website.  To produce the percentages was just basic maths.

So anyone who is genuinely interested could find it out for themselves, but I guess it's often easier to spout off about obfuscation and imply some kind of cover-up than actually research the subject one purports to care about.


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## Echo Bravo (6 April 2013)

EKW, Bigbuck's, Dobiegirl and Caledonia I love you all.


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## Elf On A Shelf (6 April 2013)

Steady away Echo! We barely know each other! Lols!


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## Caledonia (6 April 2013)

Echo Bravo said:



			EKW, Bigbuck's, Dobiegirl and Caledonia I love you all.

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Aw, shucks


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## BigBuck's (6 April 2013)

Echo Bravo said:



			EKW, Bigbuck's, Dobiegirl and Caledonia I love you all.

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Group hug!


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## Dobiegirl (6 April 2013)

Echo Bravo said:



			EKW, Bigbuck's, Dobiegirl and Caledonia I love you all.

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Haha, steady now


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