# Feet, transitioning, hoofboots help please



## Wheels (31 October 2019)

M has been having problems with his feet for a short while now.  I had to change farrier because previous farrier let his toes get very long and this was causing tightness in other areas (although M wasn't actually lame)

New farrier has done 2 cycles so far and is gradually bringing the toes back and the feet are starting to look more balanced.  However we did have to have a few weeks off, lame in both front feet either jarring or minor strain, probably due to change in foot balance.

He is back in light work now but I think hes still a wee bit 'off' on his left fore, it has a flat foot landing whereas is rf is heel first.

He has now lost the shoe off the left fore twice in 3 weeks.

I am considering pulling the shoes and trying to transition to bf - I have had bf horses before but never done the transitioning part.  I've ordered nic bakers book and I am thinking I should get some front boots to help him at first but dont really know where else to start.

The track from the stables to the field is quite stony so thinking boots to go between would be useful and then to lead out in hand for a couple of weeks and see how he fares?


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## Red-1 (31 October 2019)

It is the right time of year to transition, as it is soft underfoot in the field.

For a first boot I found Cavallos very adaptable for fit. I would not spend a huge amount at first as the foot tends to change size and shape, so measure, look at the charts and see what is available second hand to start with.

Yes, booting from field to yard may be a good idea.


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## tallyho! (31 October 2019)

My advice is always to get a barefoot specialist in. Preferably someone who has a proper approved qualification like EPAUK or AA/UKNHCP, but perhaps someone who is reputable also? Try this: https://www.barefoothorse.info/barefoot-trimmer-association/

There is nothing better than having someone who knows what they are talking about to help you on the ground. Keep going with your own research and turn into a hoof geek .


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## ester (31 October 2019)

If you want easy on/off boots to get to the field cavallos are probably the best bet and they do now have more options than they used to. Personally I have needed to use them with socks to avoid rubbing.

For riding (especially faster) fit and breakover is much more important although obviously this can change (F was unusual in that he didn't) and any of our uk boot stockists are very helpful on advising what might work best.

Diet?


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## Wheels (31 October 2019)

tallyho! said:



			My advice is always to get a barefoot specialist in. Preferably someone who has a proper approved qualification like EPAUK or AA/UKNHCP, but perhaps someone who is reputable also? Try this: https://www.barefoothorse.info/barefoot-trimmer-association/

There is nothing better than having someone who knows what they are talking about to help you on the ground. Keep going with your own research and turn into a hoof geek .
		
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Unfortunately there is no specialist in my area (well there is one so called specialist but I've used them once and will never again!)

So its farrier + increasing my knowledge as much as possible.


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## Wheels (31 October 2019)

ester said:



			If you want easy on/off boots to get to the field cavallos are probably the best bet and they do now have more options than they used to. Personally I have needed to use them with socks to avoid rubbing.

For riding (especially faster) fit and breakover is much more important although obviously this can change (F was unusual in that he didn't) and any of our uk boot stockists are very helpful on advising what might work best.

Diet?
		
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He is out in the field during the day and in at night on very very dry haylage (almost wrapped hay).  Hes on thunderbrooks daily Essentials with a small amount of micronised linseed.

Work wise - I am not sure how to start, he is partially fit, able to trot for a decent amount of time and have a couple of canters but am I better to go back to leading out in hand for 10 mins and starting to introduce schooling gradually or add in the hand walking on tarmac to his current schedule?


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## ester (31 October 2019)

So, not everyone finds the thunderbrooks great (iirc the copper and zinc can be a bit low for some but they stopped everyone talking about it with their heavy handed techniques so can't double check what people who know more than me said)

I would take a less is more approach work wise atm myself to start with and see how he goes, trotting etc is an awful lot more force on the hooves until they are ready for it.


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## Reacher (31 October 2019)

Agree with cavallos being good starter boot.
How strong his feet are will affect what level of work to start at - eg if feet are flat / weak digital cushion / underrun you need to start low intensity work until they get stronger.
My 18yo retired ex-racer was previously trimmed by a farrier and had very weak feet. I changed to a BFT who trims to the wild mustang shape and with nothing else much changed her digital cushions are gradually getting stronger. 
I went on a course run by the BFT and I trim the feet in between her (6 weekly) visits - bevelling the edges as I was shown. I think this is a useful thing to be able to do and it is helping with her feet â€˜s recovery.

In case itâ€™s useful there are various resources in this link - scroll down as more added ad hoc.
https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/barefoot-info-websites.760014/


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## Wheels (31 October 2019)

His feet are flat yes and with quite a bit of lateral and medial flare - some pics below from when he pulled his shoe a few weeks ago (outside pics) and one of the underside from this morning after he pulled his shoe yesterday + an xray from vets 6 weeks ago

Any comments will be most welcome!


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## Wheels (31 October 2019)

ester said:



			So, not everyone finds the thunderbrooks great (iirc the copper and zinc can be a bit low for some but they stopped everyone talking about it with their heavy handed techniques so can't double check what people who know more than me said)

I would take a less is more approach work wise atm myself to start with and see how he goes, trotting etc is an awful lot more force on the hooves until they are ready for it.
		
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So what would be a better feed?  I love how shiny he is on the thunderbrooks and he is feeling well on it but if theres something better for his feet then will look into it


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## Red-1 (31 October 2019)

This is the second year I have taken this horse's shoes off, due to me not having time to ride consistently so to give me a break more than her (mum not well, taking all my time and effort). She has been sound both times before and after the shoes were removed, but both times I have given her 2 weeks for them to settle then started walking out in hand. 

The last 2 days she has been walked out 45 minutes each day, but we dd start from 10 minutes and worked up from that, over 4 weeks. Last year it took longer as, although she had no issues per se, her feet were not as lovely as they are now. 

Last year, they improved so much over the winter from walking, then on to riding, that she was doing dressage, BS jumping and hacking over rough surfaces without shoes from spring onwards. We only shod up in about late May as I wanted to start some XC and it rained so I wanted studs! 

This year her feet have stayed hard and a FAB shape whilst shod, so the transition is taking a lot less time. Last year it took a few months to build it up to 45 minutes. 

The previous 2 horses I did the same with took a bit longer too, but both of those also had other issues so would have been slower anyway, as well as having been shod non stop for years. The previous 2 needed boots, this horse has been fine with none.

I would be cautious at first as they often seem pain free for the first 4-10 weeks, then the feet become sensitive. Then they get better again. 

Diet seems OK, but I found the Progressive Earth Pro Hoof supplement threw out great quality horn and lots of it.

I can recommend someone for trimming, Fiona Varian. She travels all over and is a magician with feet!


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## Wheels (31 October 2019)

Many thanks red - I will look at the pro earth 

I am not sure fiona travels to NI??


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## Leo Walker (31 October 2019)

Wheels said:



			So what would be a better feed?  I love how shiny he is on the thunderbrooks and he is feeling well on it but if theres something better for his feet then will look into it
		
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He looks shiny as theres a high % of linseed in it! I'd change to Equimins Advance Complete. Cheaper and a better spec. I'd add some linseed to it so you don't lose the shine


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## ester (31 October 2019)

Ooh hoofy pics how exciting. They look pretty good really TBH, the sort that should progress well and reasonably quickly and grow that flare out. 

The second frog pic particularly I would treat for thrush, they are good frogs generally but that will help them along even if they aren't smelly (I would spray with red horse sole cleanse and pack with hoof stuff). 

Re. feed usual recommendations are:
equimins adv. complete (with additional mag might be needed), forageplus, pro hoof, equivita. Though as said, they don't look bad as they are.


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## Wheels (31 October 2019)

I dont think there is any micronised linseed in the Daily Essentials but I do give him about 150gms of micronised linseed a day which I have done with other feeds but not had such a nice coat on other feeds 

Will look up the equimins, thanks


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## Leo Walker (31 October 2019)

Wheels said:



			I dont think there is any micronised linseed in the Daily Essentials but I do give him about 150gms of micronised linseed a day which I have done with other feeds but not had such a nice coat on other feeds

Will look up the equimins, thanks
		
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I was thinking of base mix, so ignore me! The only ingredients are:

Monocalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Carbonate, Yeasacc 1026, Blue-Green Algae.

So its probably not that making your horse lovely and shiny afterall!


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## Wheels (31 October 2019)

ester said:



			Ooh hoofy pics how exciting. They look pretty good really TBH, the sort that should progress well and reasonably quickly and grow that flare out. 

The second frog pic particularly I would treat for thrush, they are good frogs generally but that will help them along even if they aren't smelly (I would spray with red horse sole cleanse and pack with hoof stuff). 

Re. feed usual recommendations are:
equimins adv. complete (with additional mag might be needed), forageplus, pro hoof, equivita. Though as said, they don't look bad as they are.
		
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What do you think about the couple of event lines - I know they are relatively small but are they likely to produce more flare as they progress down?


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## Red-1 (31 October 2019)

Wheels said:



			Many thanks red - I will look at the pro earth

I am not sure fiona travels to NI??
		
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Ha, no, she does go up and down England but not to you. I had not realised where you were. 

The Pro Hoof is great, but only if your horse is an avid eater. Many don't like the taste unless it is added slowly.


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## splashgirl45 (31 October 2019)

if you have a good farrier then stick with him and chat to him about taking shoes off.  my farrier was good and was happy for my horse to have shoes off and never trimmed them too much....also if you take hinds off first and let them get hardened off it will be easier for him to cope when the fronts come off


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## ester (31 October 2019)

Wheels said:



			What do you think about the couple of event lines - I know they are relatively small but are they likely to produce more flare as they progress down?
		
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No I don't think so as the growth is tighter above them.


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## Wheels (1 November 2019)

So... farrier is coming tonight to pull the other 3 shoes and trim

So am I right in thinking that I should ask him to trim as much of the flare as possible without compromising the outer wall, minimal work to heals, leave frog and leave sole - roll / bevel wall

Is that along the right lines?


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## Pinkvboots (1 November 2019)

I wouldn't cut too much foot off to start with as it could make him sore, I am currently transitioning one of my horses and to start with he couldn't cope with even a slight trim, so I just rasped the toe and edges to tidy them up and keep them from getting too long.


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## Wheels (1 November 2019)

So just light trim but leave most of the flare as is?


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## ester (1 November 2019)

I'd just take shoes off and not trim at all. 

Farriers are generally over keen to address flare but at this stage it isn't appropriate.


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## Wheels (1 November 2019)

Ok thank you - a wee bit worried about the foot balance without any trim but this will rectify itself over time will it?

Thanks for everyone's help, it's a scary time!


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## ester (1 November 2019)

At this point you really want them to do what they want to do, don't underestimate them , remember none of rockleys get trimmed straight off. It seems to be debatable how much difference removing flare makes if you are balanced on the bottom. Personally I think it mostly makes them look prettier. Frank has a supportive flare/distortion on his worst hind leg, I trimmed him for several years, he has some flare on his fronts that I left well alone other than rolling the wall edge. He is now farrier trimmed (and retired) and as time has gone on the more trim happy the farrier has got though (it's longer since I nagged him ), he very much likes addressing flare and knows we don't agree on it (but I'm 200 miles away so it's been best if I stop worrying about it as it doesn't cause him any issues but he is obviously well established bare). 

Fwiw we did just take shoes off, no trim at all to start, the extra length was likely beneficial at the start.


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## ester (1 November 2019)

And yup it's scary, but that's ok


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## Red-1 (1 November 2019)

It may well meed help to reduce over time, but when the shoes are first off, I also don't trim. I do as another poster and just take off the edges, and leave for 2 weeks. I think of it as time for the hoof to relax.

My farrier has given me a rasp, and after that I start the road walking in hand and keep at the edges. At first they will wear quite a lot. I stop any square bits appearing where the horse may wear more toe.

This is all I do for another month.

After this I pick a date, such as the 1st of the month, and take photos from ground level of the front and side views, then from picked up of the sole and heels. You need to make sure that they don't get too skewiff. I also put a bevel in the edges, so it is at an angle. This not only stops any breaking off, but also encourages a tight white line as the edges are not pulling the wall away in motion.

After a few moths I get a trimmer or farrier to just check my work.

That is with thee three horses I have done, but they have all had good basic conformation. I would discuss your particular horse with your farrier. Some horses are actually better with skewiff hooves to cope better with skewiff bodies!


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## Wheels (1 November 2019)

Appreciate the support everyone


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## Wheels (1 November 2019)

Should I book farrier to come back in 4 weeks or leave it a bit longer

(Now I'm really realising how little I know!!)


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## paddy555 (1 November 2019)

Red-1 said:



			It may well meed help to reduce over time, but when the shoes are first off, I also don't trim. I do as another poster and just take off the edges, and leave for 2 weeks. I think of it as time for the hoof to relax.

My farrier has given me a rasp, and after that I start the road walking in hand and keep at the edges. At first they will wear quite a lot. I stop any square bits appearing where the horse may wear more toe.
		
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that is what I would do, nothing for 2 weeks. Ask for a s/h rasp now and as the feet grow down they will chip badly until the nails holes have grown out. Practise every 3 or 4 days with your rasp. Use it like an emery board on your own nails. It will take you several attempts to learn to use the rasp effectively and by keeping the edges running round and smooth you will keep the chipping under control.

I wouldn't book the farrier at this stage. You don't  know when you will need him. Barefeet are not like shod ones. It won't matter if the farrier is a bit late in trimming them.


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## ester (1 November 2019)

If he is the sort that likes to book in advance I'd book for 6 weeks time.  If he is happy to go a bit more ad hoc do that.


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## Wheels (1 November 2019)

Are the riders rasps any good or am I better with a standard farriers rasp?


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## ester (1 November 2019)

To start with, ask your farrier if he has a fairly blunt one . iirc more people like the riders than the radius but I have always used a proper rasp.


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## Red-1 (1 November 2019)

I tried the riders rasp, but found the farrier's one easier. I got one from him that was brand new (I did pay) but had the finer rasp both sides. If I rasp when her feet are damp then it fair rolls off.

I find a bunt one too hard work! LOL.

I do NOT advise one from Ebay, I tried but it was rubbish!

As I have done this a few times with a few horses, the farrier is happy not to see her, but I still attend every 3 months or so for him to have a look as many insurance policies say they have to be attended to regularly by a farrier. As he generally just looks he does not charge me (but then we transport to him, if he had to travel to me I would pay).

WARNING - Always wear gloves to rasp!

DOUBLE WARNING - Hoof care is addictive. I spend a lot of time making them just "so" and then admiring them!


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## paddy555 (1 November 2019)

Wheels said:



			Are the riders rasps any good or am I better with a standard farriers rasp?
		
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just ask your farrier for a s/h one. You  may need to get a handle for it or the farrier may have an old one. He will show you what to get if you need one. Alternatively  ff you have any friends who are mechanics/engineers/ even DIY they will have grinders and they will be able to grind the end off for you, a very quick job. That will make it shorter and easier to use. 

Next thing on the list is GLOVES before you even start with the rasp. It is so easy, especially to start with, to rasp your own hands and that makes then very sore.


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## ester (1 November 2019)

Lol every time I have gone I'll just to that little bit without gloves (especially when he went home and they went missing) I regretted it.

I sort of found once I got fed up with my used one I needed a sharp one and now I have much less tolerance for blunter rasps. I've always had save edge as I like having both sides, though I've not got through many.


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## Wheels (1 November 2019)

Ok so now my next issue is boots, his feet are just over 130mm long but slightly under 145mm wide (probably because of the flare) - I haven't found any size charts for boots that can accommodate this??


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## Red-1 (1 November 2019)

Wheels said:



			Ok so now my next issue is boots, his feet are just over 130mm long but slightly under 145mm wide (probably because of the flare) - I haven't found any size charts for boots that can accommodate this??
		
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You will most likely have 4-6 weeks before his feet wake up. In that time, if you start some walking and do some shaping of the edges they will likely already have changed shape.

The other thing to do is check that you are measuring correctly. In the photos they have been measured very short, the boots have to go over his frogs which presently stick out further back than the hoof wall, looking at the photos. This will change very quickly as the point where the heels meet the floor will become further back.


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## paddy555 (1 November 2019)

Wheels said:



			Ok so now my next issue is boots, his feet are just over 130mm long but slightly under 145mm wide (probably because of the flare) - I haven't found any size charts for boots that can accommodate this??
		
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there is nothing you can do about boots ATM. To measure for boots the feet need to be either trimmed with a rasp or trimmed by work. Wait for 2 weeks till he gets acclimatised to them and then post some more pics and measure again. The feet will change shape as the old wall chips off. 

What do you want to do with your horse, exercise wise? Do you want to ride him in boots for a while and then gradually start to remove them and increase the barefoot or do you want to start immediately barefoot doing only a tiny amount of work. Also what sort of riding? There are boots better for riding ie cantering etc eg scoots, renegades, gloves and some eg cavallos which are more clumpy and probably not as good for actively riding. 
You have plenty of time to sort boots. In a couple of weeks or maybe a bit longer you may be considering a slight trim so you can measure for boots, we will see. Alternatively you may just start leading him in hand and wait or a while for boots. 
Then after looking at all types and working out the sort of thing you want you could e mail pics and a bit of history and measurements to either urban horse or hoof boutique and they will help you. You  should find a reasonable choice to fit your sort of measurements


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## ester (1 November 2019)

TBF we measured for boots (with a fit kit too) when we took Frank's shoes off so it is doable. 

It is absolutely worth discussing with retailers, even if it is just to get a suggestion that would do 'now' which means you can get some quickly if required that will do the job but might not be perfect.
urban horse/hoof bootique/the saddlery shop/equine podiatry supplies are all helpful people  especially as there is a lot more choice these days.


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## Wheels (1 November 2019)

Ok, gotcha - I thought he might need boots going to and from the field as its stony and i didnt want him to get bruises but will try and keep him on the softer stuff and measure him again in a few weeks. 

You're right re. Measuring red - all the pics I've seen show to measure to the heel buttress but logically the frogs need to go in the boot too. 

Paddy riding wise I had planned to ride in boots for a while and gradually wean him off them but I could just try and do some very short ridden sessions and build up gradually, I'm not in a rush.

Pretty much all of my hacking is on the roads but it's not nice, flat tarmac - all of the local roads are tar sprayed and a layer of gravel put down every couple of years or so - you end up with sharp stones loose at the edges of the road where you ride so this may mean we need boots.

My other hacking is when I trailer to the beach so that will probably be without boots.

My arena is rubber mixed with smooth pea gravel but there is no membrane so sometimes sharper stones can rise to the surface.

Otherwise, long term we will mostly do dressage, some SJ and some XC schooling


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## ester (1 November 2019)

Honestly, I have a size to big cavallo simples which I have mostly used for poulticing but they've also been useful for getting to/from field when required as they aren't ever going to come off in walk but they are much easier to get on than his alternative that fits for cantering. 

Wheels they resurfaced our main hacking route like that the summer I took his shoes off. Mum and I did discussed whether it was very bonkers to sweep up the worst bits .


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## ycbm (1 November 2019)

Wheels said:



			His feet are flat yes and with quite a bit of lateral and medial flare - some pics below from when he pulled his shoe a few weeks ago (outside pics) and one of the underside from this morning after he pulled his shoe yesterday + an xray from vets 6 weeks ago

Any comments will be most welcome! 
	View attachment 38099
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Looking at those, I wouldn't be at all surprised if his recent lameness was because the toe clip is pressing into the white line. If you keep him in shoes, I would ask your farrier to fit double toe clips if hes going to bring the toes back that far.

Otherwise, lovely wide heels, good frogs, a bit flat that I would want to try to adjust with minerals as you've already been advised. 

I have been through three sets of boots in seven months with my TB due to foot size and shape changes. Hold off buying for a few weeks if you can and you might avoid at least one boot change!  I have some almost unused Cavallo simple threes for sale if they would fit and you need some. 

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## paddy555 (1 November 2019)

Wheels said:



			Ok, gotcha - I thought he might need boots going to and from the field as its stony and i didnt want him to get bruises but will try and keep him on the softer stuff and measure him again in a few weeks.


Paddy riding wise I had planned to ride in boots for a while and gradually wean him off them but I could just try and do some very short ridden sessions and build up gradually, I'm not in a rush.

Pretty much all of my hacking is on the roads but it's not nice, flat tarmac - all of the local roads are tar sprayed and a layer of gravel put down every couple of years or so - you end up with sharp stones loose at the edges of the road where you ride so this may mean we need boots.
		
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to my mind then it is going to be better to get him booted and get cracking after a short while, 2/3/4 weeks perhaps. You will just have to see how you get on with the stoney track. People have put carpet down over stones but obviously that depends on how long it is and how much you can keep on softer stuff.

I think you may find it harder to transition on that sort of road surface. We get this when they resurface and it is a PITA.
Boots will solve this and there is no need to make things any harder than necessary.
If a lot of your riding is on roads gloves would do fine, they are very long lasting on that sort of surface and have good road traction. Scoots also last a long time and have good traction. Renegade classics I have found don't last long on that surface.

Nice foot though and you may even get away with only one boot size. It will depend if you can cope on the stoney track for 2/3 weeks.


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## Tiddlypom (1 November 2019)

Loose gravel on tarmac roads is a bugger, we have it round here. I reckoned that I could keep my girl away from the gritty sections of road, but it just wasnâ€™t practical IRL what with traffic etc, and she got foot sore without boots. Lol at ester and her mum thinking of sweeping the gravel up!

Urban Horse were very helpful with boot suggestions and supplied fit kits.


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## Wheels (1 November 2019)

Thanks Paddy - I do think boots will be helpful but i will wait a few weeks and see how he gets on.  I like the look of the scoot boots but I think his flare needs to reduce first for them to work.

If he is struggling getting to the field will pick something up sooner just for that.

When I cant get them out in the field in really wet weather they have a smooth concrete yard to mill about in, will that be help or hindrance?


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## Wheels (1 November 2019)

Th



ycbm said:



			Looking at those, I wouldn't be at all surprised if his recent lameness was because the toe clip is pressing into the white line. If you keep him in shoes, I would ask your farrier to fit double toe clips if hes going to bring the toes back that far.

Otherwise, lovely wide heels, good frogs, a bit flat that I would want to try to adjust with minerals as you've already been advised. 

I have been through three sets of boots in seven months with my TB due to foot size and shape changes. Hold off buying for a few weeks if you can and you might avoid at least one boot change!  I have some almost unused Cavallo simple threes for sale if they would fit and you need some. 

.
		
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Thanks will keep that in mind


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## ester (1 November 2019)

It annoys me on the bike too  took the nice one home and wasn't warned at the paint chipping routes!

That will likely be fine . You just need to keep an eye on wear v. growth in early days. I think the biggest thing to start is just paying attention, while not worrying too much and being patient


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## paddy555 (1 November 2019)

Wheels said:



			Thanks Paddy - I do think boots will be helpful but i will wait a few weeks and see how he gets on.  I like the look of the scoot boots but I think his flare needs to reduce first for them to work.

If he is struggling getting to the field will pick something up sooner just for that.

When I cant get them out in the field in really wet weather they have a smooth concrete yard to mill about in, will that be help or hindrance?
		
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concrete wears feet. That can be good or bad. I had a horse many years ago. He had been treated terribly and there was no way his feet could be picked up. No way I could trim him or even clean his feet. He had a stable with a concrete yard outside and self trimmed beautifully. He ended up with perfect feet by his own efforts. 

If it is smooth concrete it will probably be easy for yours to walk on and it may help do some trimming for you just watch it is not too  much. If  he is sound and happy on it then probably no bad thing and it could be a bonus.


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## Wheels (1 November 2019)

Well that's them off now and the farrier did give me a pretty worn out rasp so thanks for that tip.

Will now just have to not let myself get too obsessed by it for the next few weeks!


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## ester (1 November 2019)

did your rasp come with a handle?

obsession is inevitable, sorry.


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## ycbm (1 November 2019)

Wheels said:



			Will now just have to not let myself get too obsessed by it for the next few weeks!
		
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No chance ðŸ˜‚   Hoofporn  will be the highlight of your life for weeks now!


I spent hours yesterday looking at ten year old photos unearthed by my new tablet PC.

.


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## Wheels (1 November 2019)

ester said:



			did your rasp come with a handle?

obsession is inevitable, sorry.
		
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No, he took the handle off!!


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## ester (1 November 2019)

they aren't super cheap so can understand why, worth it though mine was abotu Â£7, I don't imagine it will wear out in my lifetime.


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## ycbm (1 November 2019)

I've never had a handle on my rasps. Feel deprived now â˜¹


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## Red-1 (2 November 2019)

I am due my first set of photos for this year's removal. It is addictive. I rarely have a day where rasp does not touch hoof!

My handle came off the rubbish rasp I got from eBay.

I also recommend a stiff brush.

I also recommend the posh French barefoot hoof stuff. I really does make a difference, although many people say it can't. It does for mine! Keeps the water out when I turn out in the morning, then stops them drying right out when in at night. All mine grow right out with the nail holes intact, no breakage despite turnout and walking out. Plus they do different formulation for summer/winter/mid-seson so it is always a good consistency whether hot or cold.

ETA - I looked it up, the brand is *Ungula Naturalis*

*Extra ETA - found the product... http://equiworldlimited.co.uk/tacks...ucts_id=1740&zenid=reurjt4o5to9cu4eba4q8btod1*

I have used their frog sanitiser with success too.


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## paddy555 (2 November 2019)

Wheels said:



			Well that's them off now and the farrier did give me a pretty worn out rasp so thanks for that tip.

Will now just have to not let myself get too obsessed by it for the next few weeks!
		
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how exciting. As you now get obsessed  and look at them every 5 minutes bear in mind that as the wall chips off up to the top of the nail holes they could well look pretty manky. Don't get discouraged. Look only at top at the new growth coming down.


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## Wheels (5 November 2019)

ester said:



			Ooh hoofy pics how exciting. They look pretty good really TBH, the sort that should progress well and reasonably quickly and grow that flare out. 

The second frog pic particularly I would treat for thrush, they are good frogs generally but that will help them along even if they aren't smelly (I would spray with red horse sole cleanse and pack with hoof stuff). 

Re. feed usual recommendations are:
equimins adv. complete (with additional mag might be needed), forageplus, pro hoof, equivita. Though as said, they don't look bad as they are.
		
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Sole cleanse and hoof stuff on order, should be here tomorrow / thursday.

Do I pack the collateral grooves with hoof stuff as well as the central sulcus?

We do have mild seedy toe in one foot - clean and hoof stuff it too?  What about if I have a bit of a crumbly / deepish looking white line?


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## ester (5 November 2019)

I'd probably give the grooves/seedy toe a squirt and leave it at that. The quantity of seedy toe looks normal to me for a newly unshod horse and usually grows itself out without too much bother.


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## paddy555 (5 November 2019)

Wheels said:



			Sole cleanse and hoof stuff on order, should be here tomorrow / thursday.

Do I pack the collateral grooves with hoof stuff as well as the central sulcus?

We do have mild seedy toe in one foot - clean and hoof stuff it too?  What about if I have a bit of a crumbly / deepish looking white line?
		
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if the penultimate pic before the x rays shows the current situation I wouldn't pack it or even treat it with anything. You most likely will have a crumbly WL at this stage. 
I would deal with the seedy toe. ATM I would clean it out, wire brush it, use a bradawl or horse shoe nail to clean it, poke it with a cotton bud to get it really clean. Then syringe hydrogen peroxide into it. I wouldn't pack it but clean it a couple of times a day. 
The more you pack bits of the foot with anything the more you are creating lovely warm damp places for bugs. 


Our feet, all 36 of them don't get regularly treated with anything. If there is a problem I deal with it but that is it.


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## ester (5 November 2019)

That depends what you are packing with, if it's antimicrobial it's not a lovely place for bugs. I've had much better results using hoof stuff in central sulcus than any of the other solutions/soaks.


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## paddy555 (5 November 2019)

ester said:



			That depends what you are packing with, if it's antimicrobial it's not a lovely place for bugs. I've had much better results using hoof stuff in central sulcus than any of the other solutions/soaks.
		
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not sure if that foot is how they are why you  would be packing the cs.


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## Reacher (6 November 2019)

paddy555 said:



			Our feet, all 36 of them don't get regularly treated with anything. If there is a problem I deal with it but that is it.
		
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I now picture you as a millipede! ðŸ˜†


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## Wheels (17 November 2019)

New pics coming up...

Two weeks in, at the start of this week I had to keep everyone in the stables and smooth concrete yard due to extremely wet and boggy fields.  Whilst they do wander around the yard I didnt think he would be moving around enough so I started hand walking just for a few mins up and down the lane and driveway.

Yesterday and today we went out for a walk on the roads.

So he is sound and walking out well on the concrete yard, the arena and the roads.  Some days he walks out ok on the stones between stable and driveway and some days he is quite tentative but I just let him take his own pace and route.

Some pics - the top pic from each view is from 2 weeks ago (sorry about the mud), the 2nd pic of each view is from today 

Tell me what you see 

Right fore


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## Wheels (17 November 2019)

Left fore


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## Wheels (17 November 2019)

Am I starting to see some concavity in the front feet or am I seeing things?


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## Wheels (17 November 2019)

What is going on with this frog?  Doesnt appear to be sensitive or sore but doesnt look great


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## ester (17 November 2019)

paddy555 said:



			not sure if that foot is how they are why you  would be packing the cs.
		
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Paddy I was only replying to this statement, which is factually incorrect, not the thread as a whole



			The more you pack bits of the foot with anything the more you are creating lovely warm damp places for bugs.
		
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## ester (17 November 2019)

Wheels you've got better at taking photos already . 
concavity IME is one of the hardest things to capture or judge from a photo, especially small changes, we got a small but significant improvement but I never really managed to capture it very well. 
Those frog holes I'd clear out (with a pointy thing ) and pack but not worry about too much. 

The additional sole at the tip of the RF is interesting (by which I do just mean interesting!) I suspect the wall will look quite long when that comes off but I wouldn't worry about it. All sounds pretty good atm and they are generally looking good.


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## Wheels (17 November 2019)

The additional sole is strange, all 4 feet had it but it has worn off the others - you can see some remnants on the pic below on one of his hands


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## Red-1 (17 November 2019)

They look better to me already.

No, I don't see concavity. What I do see is that, at the moment, the wall is far too proud of the sole. This is why they look concave. The sole itself is still flat. I would not trim the wall back too much though, as it will come back well with walking. What I would do is make an angle at the edge, so it is rounded off to half the width of the wall. Much less likely to split then. Plus, with less width of wall, it will lower quicker. A rounding off also means that the breaker is assisted while the wall is too long.

I think this is why they don't seem lame initially, as they have excess wall. Once the wall has worn, then you may have to either boot or reduce the walking until the hoof wall catches up growth wise.

IMO, the concavity occurs because the wall stops being the main thing that takes weight, it starts to be sole. Then the frog is also healthy and big, so to fit the frog in, the sole becomes concave. This takes time, months, even a year or so.

The hoof is a wondrous thing. My horse had the extra pieces of hoof, under where the shoe was. She is about 2 months without shoes now this time round. When the hoof is over stressed, the hoof puts out what is like an emergency sticky plaster. It is more jelly like (but still hard) than the normal crumbly sole material. It often grows from the bars, when the hoof is stressed.

Once the hoof is operating well the emergency hoof material ceases.

I have found that the more walking on flat tarmac they do, the better (within reason).


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## Wheels (17 November 2019)

Hmmm well not sure how much walking out on roads I will get done now as it's so dark in the mornings before work and definitely too dark afterwards.

I will continue with the walking around the driveway and lane and roads at the weekends.  I dont think it will be enough to keep the walls in check.

I'm nervous about trimming though!


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## Red-1 (17 November 2019)

Wheels said:



			Hmmm well not sure how much walking out on roads I will get done now as it's so dark in the mornings before work and definitely too dark afterwards.

I will continue with the walking around the driveway and lane and roads at the weekends.  I dont think it will be enough to keep the walls in check.

I'm nervous about trimming though!
		
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No need to be nervous of you just take a shave every day  Especially if you take photos every month to check they are not going wildly out of balance. 

If I was not walking your horse on concrete then I would take some of the wall back, as if left that long it can act as a lever to stop the white line being tight. But, it would be a shave a day, nothing dramatic.


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## ester (17 November 2019)

The white line/lever issue while somewhat logical is definitely disputed and I would still leave them be this early on. I would much rather a bit more length possibly helping a horse be more comfortable especially with flatter soles.


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## ycbm (17 November 2019)

False sole picture for anyone interested. Top when the shoe came off, bottom a few weeks later. The horse was a rehab whose PTS appointment had been booked but the owner drove him to me instead.


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## Wheels (19 November 2019)

The false sole is so strange, it's like it has grown out of the white line, it covers the white line growing right out to the wall, bits start to peel off but seems knitted in  to the white line, weird stuff but the horses obviously need it.

I think this is going to be a rollercoaster ride.  Yesterday afternoon he was a wee bit footy on tarmac and this morning was not striding out in the arena and definitely not happy over the stones.  

I sent pics over to hoof boutique yesterday so hopefully will get boots soon.  He is due a trim in just over 3 weeks so not sure whether to wait until after that before I order boots, also not sure I want to leave him that long without.

Already so unsure of what to do.  This is why you need a good professional I suppose but without hoping you guys will help me!  I'm reading that exercise is important to get the blood flow going but if hes not 100% comfortable in the arena am I best to leave him until I get the boots?


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## ycbm (19 November 2019)

The 'coming alive' is normal Wheels, it will get better again soon.

I wouldn't work him if he is obviously sore.


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## Wheels (19 November 2019)

It's mostly just when he steps on a stone, he takes a mis-step, otherwise hes ok on the concrete but in the arena he's not walking out confidently.  

I will bring him into the concrete yard to feed, groom and do his feet, that way he doesnt have to go over the worst of the stones.


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## Wheels (20 November 2019)

so I sent pics through to hoof boutique with tape measure in situ - front feet are both about the same length at 125mm, one is 139mm wide and the other is 144mm so quite some difference between the width and length and doesn't give me many options and typically the options that are open to me are the most expensive (Renegade Vipers, Scoots, floating boot)  but all look like good boots.

I have decided to wait until the next trim and just take it very easy until then - hopefully the flare will come down a little to take the width down a bit so there isn't as much difference between the length and width - I think after his trim I will just have to go with whatever I can get to suit.


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## ester (20 November 2019)

We did that he was so flat we knew we were likely to need them, we were lucky that they were actually the only boots we ever had (though he did have a new pair after 3 years and the old ones were getting a bit loose- they went in my trimmers emergency boot collection).


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## Wheels (1 December 2019)

4 weeks in!  I'm not going to post too many photos today but just have to show these two pics of his right fore, I am utterly amazed at the change in this short space of time!


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## Mule (9 December 2019)

Wheels said:



			4 weeks in!  I'm not going to post too many photos today but just have to show these two pics of his right fore, I am utterly amazed at the change in this short space of time!
	View attachment 39078
View attachment 39079

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It's amazing isn't it. They look fantastic, so much healthier. 
Mine is out of them just over 4 weeks and his hooves look like they belong to a different horse. They are now wearing evenly and he's become really supple and flexible when he does his carrot stretches. He used to be one sided and generally stuff. The only change has been taking the shoes off so I'm putting it down to that.


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## Wheels (10 December 2019)

That's great mule  

The farrier is here on thursday for a tidy up and then hopefully sort some boots out


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## Mule (13 December 2019)

The farrier came yesterday to trim the beast's hooves. Unfortunately I was at work so I didn't get to talk to him. His (uncommunicative) co-owner was there but of course he didn't ask the farrier anything The farrier did say that his hooves had improved

Anyway, the beast is fine after his trim. I did his carrot stretches to see if his newfound suppleness was affected- it wasn't. He is still a furry, grey contortionist😁

I'm going to bring him for a walk in hand on the road and over cavaletti tomorrow. Interestingly, I've noticed that since his shoes have come off he is no longer touching/kicking the cavaletti with his hooves. According to what I've read, this may be a result of increased proprioception or he is simply being careful as his hooves are sensitive and he doesn't want to hurt them.

One thing I'm aware of is that I don't want to erroneously attribute every positive thing to him being barefoot. I do believe it's helping him but I want to be sure to document things accurately.

I'm finding it all very interesting. I had never paid much attention to hooves in the past. I can't be around a horse now without checking them out


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## ester (13 December 2019)

looking good


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## Mule (13 December 2019)

I know! It is exciting isn't it😁


ester said:



 looking good
		
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## Wheels (14 December 2019)

Farrier was here yesterday which means we are 6 weeks in and he is very pleased with progress to date.  The seedy toe (which M has had for at least a year) has now gone.  There is a small hole / dent but no longer any infection present.

For anyone interested I just cleaned the hole out twice every day and squirted sole cleanse in once a day.  

We tried a few hoof boot shells, the renegade vipers fit quite well as do the scoots so I've sent pics to hoof boutique before I decide which to go for  - he moved slightly better in the scoots but I think hes between sizes so we will see 

We are hacking out in walk now and started trot work in the arena and just keeping a very close eye on things. A few of you have said 4-10 weeks in and they sometimes go through a bad patch so hoping it's not too bad


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## Mule (14 December 2019)

Wheels said:



			Farrier was here yesterday which means we are 6 weeks in and he is very pleased with progress to date.  The seedy toe (which M has had for at least a year) has now gone.  There is a small hole / dent but no longer any infection present.

For anyone interested I just cleaned the hole out twice every day and squirted sole cleanse in once a day. 

We tried a few hoof boot shells, the renegade vipers fit quite well as do the scoots so I've sent pics to hoof boutique before I decide which to go for  - he moved slightly better in the scoots but I think hes between sizes so we will see

We are hacking out in walk now and started trot work in the arena and just keeping a very close eye on things. A few of you have said 4-10 weeks in and they sometimes go through a bad patch so hoping it's not too bad 

Click to expand...

Great news😁 I'm looking forward to hearing more about your progress 👍


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## Gloi (14 December 2019)

A mule in a manger said:



			I'm finding it all very interesting. I had never paid much attention to hooves in the past. I can't be around a horse now without checking them out 

Click to expand...

It can get a bit awkward at times. I find it quite hard to look at people's horses' feet without commenting, not always in a flattering manner.


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## Wheels (14 December 2019)

Thanks mule, we are on a similar trajectory I think


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## PurBee (14 December 2019)

You say he’s on very very dry haylage, more like wrapped hay.
I find this concerning, as haylage and hay are not the same feed. One is fermented stalky grasses,  the other dried grasses. There’s no in between forage that would be safe to feed.
Hay can only be safely wrapped airtight if below 14% moisture.
Many hay producers, intend to make hay, get caught by the weather, hay gets rained on so they then decide it’s going to be baled and wrapped to be sold as haylage. Proper haylage producers won’t ever do this, as they know the chemistry of correctly fermenting the forage is an important element in making SAFE haylage.
If haylage is wrapped below 40% moisture there isn’t enough moisture to ferment the forage properly to make it safe to feed, leading to undetectable by sight bacterial growth no-one wants to be feeding, which, incidentally can easily cause laminitis bouts.

So do a double check of the wrapped forage you have. It should smell vaguely sweet, be golden colored, and ‘waxy’ feeling in texture. If it’s vinegary it’s over fermented, I wouldn’t personally feed that. If it looks like hay but doesn’t smell like nice hay, and smells musty due to being wrapped, it hasn’t fermented and not a safe clean feed.
When I say safe, I mean that the bacteria that are present on all grasslands haven’t been given optimal conditions to grow by the way the hay/haylage has been made. These bacteria are killed during proper fermentation, and dehydrated/dead by making dry hay, to safe, acceptable levels.

Bad quality forage can cause laminitis bouts. I’ve learnt this over and over.....never realizing just how sensitive horses are to ‘badly made’ forage which can ‘look’ fine to feed. Give it a huge deep smell...allow your own senses and body to relay to you if It’s any good. Initially with forage that visually looks fine and a small whiff to smell it as not being bad has given me stomach bloating, headaches and sneezes, mucous, blocked nose within an hour of doing this ‘deep smell test’. I literally plant my nose deep into a big handful of the forage and breathe in deeply....if I remain well within an hour without feeling ill, I feed it.
Now I’m sensitized to ‘bad forage’ I can tell by initial whiff if it’s good or bad. I can’t rely on horses to tell me, they eat anything when hungry.
If you have respiratory issues don’t do the deep smell test!

The rings on your horses feet suggest dietary assault episodes, could be spring grass, musty hay, grain overload, or poisoning from eating something weed/tree he shouldn’t have.

He has a nice round foot shape despite walls being long, needing to grow back strong. So you have a good foundational shape to grow a healthy wall onto. Nice wide big frog too! Not a terrible foot at all...a good trimmer should be able to bring that round to sound easily.

eBay has lots of 2nd hand boots for sale at great prices.


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## ester (14 December 2019)

^^ Claire Mcleod (sp?) nutritionist did a whole post on her fb page about haylage being drier this year on her fb page.


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## PurBee (14 December 2019)

I’m not familiar with Claire, are you able to link that article/post she wrote? Can you remember the reason she gave for haylage being drier this year?

Seems odd to say 2019 haylage crops are drier, when it was a wet U.K. season, especially compared with 2018 very dry, hot forage season.


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## ester (14 December 2019)

https://www.facebook.com/ClareMacLe...aXY8SoL2qYKrdsQvBVioiLdL5P-N_BEmM3XilT2uEWs5X

post on 12th December


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## PurBee (14 December 2019)

Found her post, she was warning people about wrapped hay being sold as haylage but being very dry and not fermenting so be careful as this wrapped stuff still contains mould spores and could be higher in sugar than haylage:

‘Clare MacLeod MSc RNutr Independent Equine NutritionistLike Page
December 12 at 10:53 PM ·
I'm seeing more and more haylage that is more akin to wrapped hay i.e. dry matter of over 75%, not much, if any fermentation, so not as dust and mould-spore free as typical haylage and potentially higher in sugar. Just be aware and if in doubt, have your forage analysed and steam or soak for horses with respiratory challenges. Consider a consistent, packaged fermented forage such as Horsehage (other bagged branded haylage-type products are available!), if you need a consistent, very low sugar (around 5%) forage that is free of dust. Horsehage was the original bagged (rather than wrapped) fermented forage and it's still a great, reliable product.”


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## ester (14 December 2019)

yup I didn't want to C+P if I couldnt' share or screen shot easily


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## PurBee (14 December 2019)

I tried to link her Facebook page but it went wrong! She’s easily googleable so I pasted her Facebook name to aid this.

You could be fine with the forage you’re feeding, I’m just warning that there’s different grades of quality out there and much of what is sold as haylage, isn’t, so we have to be careful about assuming it’s low sugar and mould-free, which are the reasons why a lot of folk prefer to feed haylage, especially for the laminitics and our fatties!

With your horses feet, does he shed his soles? They look very dense and hard, I have one horse who has similar and the other who wears his down. I came across ‘sole retention syndrome’ and wondered if this caused her sole to remain the same no matter the footing she was on. She was flat footed when at her worst, but with keeping the toe shorter, which widened her heels, trimming tip of frog correctly if stretched, it’s resolved concavity naturally without trimming sole.

On your horse the frog height looks like it’s higher at the tip than the walls from the pic, which could cause soreness/footiness. Because it’s just a pic I can’t really tell without seeing the foot in person to assess it, it may just be the angle of the pic. My mare had this too and finding the true apex aswell as trimming it by a qualified trimmer, you could find the sole concavity return coupled with keeping the toe back.
Pete Ramey has a great article on his site about frog height. Obviously with your horse previously in shoes the frog wouldnt be impacting the ground so wouldn’t show soreness.


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## Wheels (14 December 2019)

Very interesting updates, thanks PurBee

Which photo in particular are you referring to? Theres quite a few on this thread now.


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## Mule (14 December 2019)

Gloi said:



			It can get a bit awkward at times. I find it quite hard to look at people's horses' feet without commenting, not always in a flattering manner.
		
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😂


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## PurBee (14 December 2019)

Post #67 wheels. It’s hard to tell without a picture of looking across the hoof.
If you put a non-flexible ruler/metal straight edge across the tip/last third of the frog and find the ruler not resting on the wall, the frog is higher than the wall. In some this can cause soreness.

 It did for my mare on her fronts. When this was resolved her footiness that time was instantly resolved after trimming down the height of just the tip of her frog, with walls and everything else being left. I couldn’t believe it, so researched frog side, depth, height more. Looked at internal structural pictures too. Could then see how in a barefoot horse, a tall frog taking too much of the load and being compressed more than it should be, could cause the horse to feel sore.

It’s can be a challenge to grow a foot to balance the load between frog, sole and walls like it’s designed to load. It seems that when any part is having to take more load than it should ,the horse is sore.

I don’t know if other hoof folks agree with this, but I once read by an equine podiatrist that ‘where pressure on the hoof is, that part grows’. It’s the hoof building itself. I think this can happen unevenly so uneven loading follows, then soreness. 
This applies to the frog it seems, though I’m not a fan of trimming frogs and they do better when allowed to grow and toughen, but watching the height of the frog alongside wall height can help when they’re barefoot.

Pushing on the frog firmly at the tip area is a good test to see if it’s sore, the horse should want to pull away when you press very firmly any sore area on their hoof. It’s help guide me  and narrow down the issue so many times.
Heel soreness reactions is mostly due to heel sulcus fungus. Zinc oxide mixed with copper sulphate and diluted into 5 liters of water is the most effective daily hoof spray I’ve used, and dirt cheap!


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## Wheels (14 December 2019)

Thanks, I will test that with a straight edge tomorrow


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## Wheels (17 December 2019)

PurBee said:



			Post #67 wheels. It’s hard to tell without a picture of looking across the hoof.
If you put a non-flexible ruler/metal straight edge across the tip/last third of the frog and find the ruler not resting on the wall, the frog is higher than the wall. In some this can cause soreness.
		
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So I did your straight edge test, certainly at the moment the frog is not protruding beyond the walls - it may have been in the photo you referred to but not at the minute.

I've had a mixed fit kit out from hoof boutique for the last week or so - they have been very helpful and looked at lots of pics for me and gave me a lot of good advice.  The best fit is the Renegade Vipers so I've now ordered a pair - hopefully they'll be here for the weekend


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## Gloi (17 December 2019)

PurBee said:



			Post #67 wheels. It’s hard to tell without a picture of looking across the hoof.
If you put a non-flexible ruler/metal straight edge across the tip/last third of the frog and find the ruler not resting on the wall, the frog is higher than the wall. In some this can cause soreness.

It did for my mare on her fronts. When this was resolved her footiness that time was instantly resolved after trimming down the height of just the tip of her frog, with walls and everything else being left. I couldn’t believe it, so researched frog side, depth, height more. Looked at internal structural pictures too. Could then see how in a barefoot horse, a tall frog taking too much of the load and being compressed more than it should be, could cause the horse to feel sore.

It’s can be a challenge to grow a foot to balance the load between frog, sole and walls like it’s designed to load. It seems that when any part is having to take more load than it should ,the horse is sore.

I don’t know if other hoof folks agree with this, but I once read by an equine podiatrist that ‘where pressure on the hoof is, that part grows’. It’s the hoof building itself. I think this can happen unevenly so uneven loading follows, then soreness.
This applies to the frog it seems, though I’m not a fan of trimming frogs and they do better when allowed to grow and toughen, but watching the height of the frog alongside wall height can help when they’re barefoot.

Pushing on the frog firmly at the tip area is a good test to see if it’s sore, the horse should want to pull away when you press very firmly any sore area on their hoof. It’s help guide me  and narrow down the issue so many times.
Heel soreness reactions is mostly due to heel sulcus fungus. Zinc oxide mixed with copper sulphate and diluted into 5 liters of water is the most effective daily hoof spray I’ve used, and dirt cheap!
		
Click to expand...

 I'm going to have to test this with mine , I think it may be his problem. I've been having a strange problem with mine in that for the first mile or so on a ride he wants to get off the road onto the verge. After a mile or so he is fine and stays fine for the rest of the ride and he isn't sensitive to stones at all, even when we first set off - it's smooth tarmac he wants to get off. I've a feeling the point of frog may be protruding a bit far and then wearing down as we ride. I'm going to check this out tomorrow.


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## PurBee (17 December 2019)

Great news wheels, i think horses look very dapper with hoof boots on...like theyre up for a game of basketball 

Its worth testing Gloi. Give a firm push with your thumbs onto that last third of the frog, see if there’s any reaction.

When ive studied *the* feral barefoot hoof thats circulated the barefoot community aswell as other barefoot wild horse pics the one thing i noticed that is common with all those feet is a very tough, yet shallow frog. In some the tip is buried deep into the concavity of the very thick, hard sole. Those frogs are not taking any loading on flat ground. They dont look like cushioned protruding pads like we see on domestic horses. When i see those wild feet , the heels and bars are taller than the heel of the frog, and look rock hard.
I know the climate where the pics of these feet generally come from very dry, hot climates and we all know how the elements a horse is subjected to completely alters a its foot, but it has me wondering if we have the wrong idea about the frog being an ‘equal partner’ in the loading of the foot, alongside wall and sole.

When my geldings back feet frogs grew huge, they took most the loading leading to thin walls growing. When the frogs were trimmed there were pink ‘stone bruises’ as theyre called, that could only be seen after trimming the frogs. He was far more comfortable when it was reduced, and his walls/sole could load more.
Sometimes i wonder if large frogs can be a causation to long toe/low heel syndrome, as the frogs take too much of the loading, maybe due to wall issues/weakness/trimmed too short, so they get more pressure on them, causing them to grow more to withstand this pressure, effectively resulting in a leverage within the foot of inner hoof frog contact onto p3 becoming either tipped forwards or ‘backwards depending on p3’s location within the foot before this growth episode took place. Its a curious theory i have that im yet to truly know if its possible as im havent seen thousands of hooves to consider this pathology as causative of hoof issues.

With my mares front feet she would be comfy if she actually grew a long wall...everytime being trimmed and rolled she would be footy, no flat soles being sore...but her frog tip protruded, so it was trimmed and she was confortable. Her frogs were stretched then, not wide at heel, despite toe being kept back, so i think the frog tip height being excess aswell as that frog material being ‘bound up’ stretched forward by sole material, stopped it wearing off naturally so she could resume proper frog growth. Only when it was trimmed down and back did her frog shed, soles became more concave, everything shifted. Her feet were really bad when i got her. Very long thin stretched frogs and long toes despite being barefoot her whole life. She was sporting a lamellar wedge, the whole caboodle. 
Low sugar forage, no grain, copper and zinc to balance out the ridiculous iron levels in forage, and shes doing better weight, coat black instead of coppery black.

Im still very much of the ‘leave frogs alone’ camp so they can develop callous, but now im more attentive to size of it in comparison to the walls and sole, and assess closer how much loading its taking, no longer believing the bigger it is, the better it is for the comfort of the horse loading it. 
I wish there were more articles online about frog function, ideal size, height etc, i could only find 1 or 2 who even said what height it should be, and both agreed it shouldnt protrude the wall height, while concurring should be level with heels at the widest part.


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## Gloi (17 December 2019)

PurBee said:



			Its worth testing Gloi. Give a firm push with your thumbs onto that last third of the frog, see if there’s any reaction.

Im still very much of the ‘leave frogs alone’ camp so they can develop callous, but now im more attentive to size of it in comparison to the walls and sole, and assess closer how much loading its taking, no longer believing the bigger it is, the better it is for the comfort of the horse loading it.
I wish there were more articles online about frog function, ideal size, height etc, i could only find 1 or 2 who even said what height it should be, and both agreed it shouldnt protrude the wall height, while concurring should be level with heels at the widest part.
		
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I'm dying to go now and test him out. I was only looking this morning and thinking how nice his frogs were looking, they are in wear through their full length and the central sulcus is open and clean,  but are quite high at the point. I'll test them against the wall tomorrow and if they are higher than the wall there will see how he is if I take the tip down a few mm. It does make sense because occasionally he is wanting to go on the verge in his boots and it would make sense as the frog would be pressing on the boot sole and in that case not being worn down during the ride. He never does any unlevel steps, just looks to get off the smooth tarmac, sometimes onto gravel which I thought odd.


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## Mule (17 December 2019)

Wheels said:



			So I did your straight edge test, certainly at the moment the frog is not protruding beyond the walls - it may have been in the photo you referred to but not at the minute.

I've had a mixed fit kit out from hoof boutique for the last week or so - they have been very helpful and looked at lots of pics for me and gave me a lot of good advice.  The best fit is the Renegade Vipers so I've now ordered a pair - hopefully they'll be here for the weekend 

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That's fantastic.


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## PurBee (18 December 2019)

Gloi said:



			I'm dying to go now and test him out. I was only looking this morning and thinking how nice his frogs were looking, they are in wear through their full length and the central sulcus is open and clean,  but are quite high at the point. I'll test them against the wall tomorrow and if they are higher than the wall there will see how he is if I take the tip down a few mm. It does make sense because occasionally he is wanting to go on the verge in his boots and it would make sense as the frog would be pressing on the boot sole and in that case not being worn down during the ride. He never does any unlevel steps, just looks to get off the smooth tarmac, sometimes onto gravel which I thought odd.
		
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Maybe he prefers the gravel in boots compared to tarmac because gravel shifts slightly at he loads on it, essentially cushioning each stride a bit lessening the concussion of the boot on his frog - thats if the frog is sensitive and too proud. How thick are his hoof walls?

The other thing i just thought of is that maybe due to the gravel being less concussive he could have a slight fetlock/leg sprain and avoiding tarmac’s unforgiving hardness? Does he have a muddy paddock with others he’s recently been silly in this winter and slipped in the mud or something? I never knew how clumsy horses were until owning them and witnessing for myself their ridiculous antics in the muddiest spots of a field!
Is it at walk he wants to use gravel and softer terrain or just at faster than walk paces?

Once you give his frog a good prod itll help reveal cause. 
Check for heat at his fetlocks, cannon tendons and knees while he’s at rest for a slight sprain.
Mine can have a perfect walking gait, with no sign of lameness of a sprain, but when i do their feet i incidentally notice more heat in one fetlock than another. Some minor sprains dont show up at a walk but do at trotting/canter.


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## Gloi (18 December 2019)

PurBee said:



			Maybe he prefers the gravel in boots compared to tarmac because gravel shifts slightly at he loads on it, essentially cushioning each stride a bit lessening the concussion of the boot on his frog - thats if the frog is sensitive and too proud. How thick are his hoof walls?

Is it at walk he wants to use gravel and softer terrain or just at faster than walk paces?
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It's mainly at walk that he wants to get off the tarmac when we first set off and he is warming up, once he gets a shift on he no longer thinks about it , he just goes forward and no sign of any problems. He gets a bit more chance to wander off line at a walk. I normally ride him without boots, I only use them if we are going out for more than a couple of hours.


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## PurBee (18 December 2019)

It might be the boots Gloi...depending on the material, perhaps when theyre first put on theyre stiff and cold, flexing less to his foot, and once theyve heated up after going a bit, they flex and are more comfortable?
Some boots are a tough, thick leathery material, while others are a more flexible manmade textile. If the sole is thick and doesnt flex much to the hoof inside, then gel pads could be tried if not currently used. Although i doubt many are manufactured so the sole of the boot doesnt flex and feel comfortable, as thats the main point of using boots.

Also recheck the fit of the boots, due to feet easily changing shape, wall thickness etc....draw round his feet onto paper, cut it out and insert into boot....have a feel round the edge of the paper inside to see if it sits flat all the way around or bends up the boot in places, then adjustments to hoof wall can be made based on this, if there’s just a few mm, or a size up or down if the paper stencil slides around or is 10mm too big. If the stencil is abit smaller then gel/pad inserts could be used to tighten the fit if a bit loose.


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## Gloi (18 December 2019)

I got to look at his frogs this morning. There is nothing above the level of the wall and nothing he reacts to if I press it, (though I can't press it as hard as he can when he is standing on it of course) The part of the frog where the two halves meet is the highest and at wall level so I;ve shaved it down a couple of mm  to the same level as the rest of the frog and I will check it again before we go on the roads, I suspect that is the problem. He had a good ride out barefoot the day before yesterday and will have worn off any excess then but couldn't go out yesterday or today due to ice so today he just got a good run free in the school and then a lunge and he didn't show any problems except having too much energy for his own good. Roll on spring.
He has Scoots the times he wears them and the front ones fit really well , the back ones on the occasional time I use them are a touch loose but not too bad, but I don't suspect the problem is in the back feet. I'm hoping it is just that a bit of his frog is a little higher than the rest until it wears off on a ride, I think it could be the reason..


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## PurBee (18 December 2019)

Ditto, roll on spring, its blowing a gale where i am and raining in all directions!

Itll be interesting to see how he does now youve shaved the heel a bit. They tend to take short, quick steps with heel pain, than long extended confident steps...mostly with frog thrush issues, but equally if frog is too big and heel walls/bars dont load fully.


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## PurBee (18 December 2019)

Meant to add that the firm 2 thumb pressing on the frog will elicit a reaction if sore, despite it not being equivalent to their weight loaded. My mare reacted with just one thumb pressing, a very stark reaction of wanting to pull her hoof away from me. So its great your horses didnt flinch


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## Gloi (18 December 2019)

PurBee said:



			Ditto, roll on spring, its blowing a gale where i am and raining in all directions!

Itll be interesting to see how he does now youve shaved the heel a bit. They tend to take short, quick steps with heel pain, than long extended confident steps...mostly with frog thrush issues, but equally if frog is too big and heel walls/bars dont load fully.
		
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It wasn't at the heel , the highest bit was about half an inch back from the tip of the frog. I do think the frog could have been loading unevenly at the start of the ride, interested to see the result next time it's fit to get out. I've had enough of this weather I like to get out hacking every day but not in this


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## ycbm (18 December 2019)

Check the height of the bars as well. General recommendation is not to trim bars,  but some horses are much better with them taken back close to the sole.  

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## Gloi (18 December 2019)

ycbm said:



			Check the height of the bars as well. General recommendation is not to trim bars,  but some horses are much better with them taken back close to the sole. 

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Fortunately the bars always seem to stay short.


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## PurBee (18 December 2019)

Gloi said:



			It wasn't at the heel , the highest bit was about half an inch back from the tip of the frog. I do think the frog could have been loading unevenly at the start of the ride, interested to see the result next time it's fit to get out. I've had enough of this weather I like to get out hacking every day but not in this 

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Sorry gloi, my visual of the v you described somehow computed as heel. I know the spot you mean, that can develop a bit bulgey there in some horse frogs. It willl be interesting to see if the removal of that alters his tarmac avoidance next time you make it out.


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## PurBee (18 December 2019)

Hooves can grow anomalous bulges of walls, sole and frog, and initially if taken off/down to visual balance they remain sound and good then i dont overthink the why of the bulge. Its only when bulges re-grow after removal that i stop and think deeper the why. The hoof is growing extra material for a reason. Why is that? What part of the hoof is weak to cause this anomaly? It could just be a trim slightly off balance. It might be weak walls. Many reasons. 
With recurring issues, if the way weve been approaching it doesnt yield results, then we have to look more into other reasons, and change our understanding of the ‘why’, then try a new approach. 

Like my mare, thinking it was all long toe, forever bringing it back...heels wouldnt widen. Whats going on?! Only when the cells of stretched frog tip and sole bound together were ‘released’ by trimming, did her sole concave more, toe came back, her walk far more lengthened, confident stride. 

Mantras may be good for meditation but not when it comes to the horses foot - “never trim the frog”....that held me and the horse back for so long.
 Its all great learning in the end...there’s no text book ‘standard’ when it comes to individual horses, with their individual feet, all in varying climates, on various diets, doing a variety of work.


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## Wheels (18 December 2019)

That's interesting about trimming the frogs, you do hear a lot that frogs should be left but as with anything there are always exceptions to the rule


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## Gloi (19 December 2019)

Well if all problems were so easy to fix 
I looked at his feet again before I rode this morning, decided that part of the frog was still a bit high towards the rest and took another small amount off. Went out on the roads and no verge pulling at all!
I think that that part of the frog has been taking more weight than it should for a while and become harder and more compressed than the rest of the frog and so a bit uncomfortable when we first set off until the tarmac shaved it down. Hopefully if I keep my eye on it and keep it the same height as the rest of the frog, the rest of the frog will become as tough as that part and spread the pressure. Anyway it seems to have solved the mystery and we are now all systems go.


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## PurBee (19 December 2019)

Thats great news Gloi  
It must feel to the horse like a soft stone pushing in. 
Your theory is sound that if its even all the way along it’ll evenly callous and toughen up.
Your case has highlighted that the plane of the frog does need to be even, and the smallest little bulging will begin to toughen more than the rest.
I try to visualise within the foot, the frog supports the majority of P3 inside the curve of P3, the frog within is much larger than the frog we see on the outside. The horse potentially can feel uneven frog from outside putting pressure on P3 within unevenly.


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## Gloi (19 December 2019)

PurBee said:



			Thats great news Gloi 
It must feel to the horse like a soft stone pushing in.
Your theory is sound that if its even all the way along it’ll evenly callous and toughen up.
Your case has highlighted that the plane of the frog does need to be even, and the smallest little bulging will begin to toughen more than the rest.
I try to visualise within the foot, the frog supports the majority of P3 inside the curve of P3, the frog within is much larger than the frog we see on the outside. The horse potentially can feel uneven frog from outside putting pressure on P3 within unevenly.
		
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Yes, I've always left the frog alone, thinking it would grow what it needed, and only really bothered about making sure there was no thrushy bits, but now he's shown me I need to make sure it's kept level so he doesn't think he is standing on a stone. I'm really glad it was something fixable.


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## Gloi (21 December 2019)

Quite amazed how quickly the rest of the frog is developing while I keep lowering that calloused lump which I think seems to swell a bit every day so must have been really compressed and now getting a chance to relax. It was only a small amount above the rest of the frog but must have been taking much more than its fair share of the pressure.


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## PurBee (21 December 2019)

That’s amazing to hear gloi. Yes, the relaxation ive experienced too. 
It should settle down soon and remain as a flat plane. The rest of the frog now has a chance to develop even better than it was before now its loading evenly.
Its amazing isnt it how fast the foot develops and grows with even just the smallest alteration in trim?
Is he still going better on tarmac?


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## Gloi (21 December 2019)

PurBee said:



			Is he still going better on tarmac?
		
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Yes, did about 8 miles yesterday in his boots, lots of trotting and he was good, no looking to the verge at all. Short ride bare today and all good.


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## Wheels (22 December 2019)

So pleased I started this thread, thanks for sharing everyone.

The renegade vipers arrived and they fit very well so it was worth getting the fit kits.  I have used them a couple of times in the arena and lead him out in hand and M is already very confident in them, will hack tomorrow

Pic to show how well he is moving in them, they're a great piece of kit


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## PurBee (22 December 2019)

Great to hear wheels!
I like the viper design, the articulated heel /fetlock joint allowing a supported, flexible movement. 
They look like bionic boots for a trojan horse...very ‘cool’!


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## Wheels (22 December 2019)

Well they will allow us to hack and to train relatively normally until he is less tentative which is great.  We will still hack in walk without them from time to time because I think it helps to trim / shape the feet.  Definitely worth it


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## Gloi (3 January 2020)

Gloi said:



			Quite amazed how quickly the rest of the frog is developing while I keep lowering that calloused lump which I think seems to swell a bit every day so must have been really compressed and now getting a chance to relax. It was only a small amount above the rest of the frog but must have been taking much more than its fair share of the pressure. 

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Just want to say that so far I have had no more problems and his frogs are looking really good


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## Wheels (29 June 2020)

Resurrecting this thread, we are now about 8 months in and having problems.  He was doing really well up until recently but we were at the vets today and he was very footy and sore trotting a circle on the hard surface, worse in front but not great on the backs either.

He was ok circles on soft ground although not striding out quite as much as he can.  He was ok if not a wee bit pottery on smooth hard ground in a straight line.

He is overweight and cresty and came in from the field late last week with slightly raised digital pulses in both fronts so possibly a mild lami attack and it might not be the first.  However the vet thinks this is only part of the problem and that the dry weather has caused the feet to be in a constant cycle of wear and that has made the feet sensitive.  She thinks I should shoe him.

I dont think I want to shoe  but i cant leave him as he is. I personally think hes had LGL for the last month or so but vet thought that he would not have shown so much improvement between hard and soft ground if it was only lami.

Hes in for the moment on bute and a diet but she wants me to start working him on soft ground as soon as he is capable.

I would really appreciate any advice/ thoughts on this, I dont want to shoe but the horse needs to be comfortable


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## ester (29 June 2020)

I don't get the dry weather>wear>soreness idea. 

did you evaluate bare or with the renegades on?


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## ycbm (29 June 2020)

How much does he improve when you take him off grass as food? 

I don't get the wear argument either,  barefoot horses are always wearing their feet. 

I also don't accept her argument that LGL would not produce a big difference between hard and soft surfaces,  because in my experience it makes a huge difference.  



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## Wheels (29 June 2020)

ester said:



			I don't get the dry weather>wear>soreness idea. 

did you evaluate bare or with the renegades on?
		
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Bare, I forgot to take the boots with me but she did say to try at home although recommended boots all round and i only have fronts.  Still, the fronts are worse so might try anyway and see if there is *some* improvement


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## ester (29 June 2020)

I think they can be helpful in determining how much is sole on hard ground issue and how much is deeper/less direct issue, if that makes sense?

I'd absolutely treat as LGL at this point, without going back through what does he get magnesium wise ATM?


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## Wheels (29 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			How much does he improve when you take him off grass as food? 

I don't get the seat argument either,  barefoot horses are always wearing their feet. 

I also don't accept her argument that LGL would not produce a big difference between hard and soft surfaces,  because in my experience it makes a huge difference.  



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Re the grass, I'll let you know in a couple of weeks, I pulled him in on wednesday but he needs to lose his crest

I did question some of her logic as she said he would never be sound without shoes but he has been from end jan to end of april, qualified for the dressage nationals etc so was not only sound but going really well. 

I will give him a couple of days on the pain meds (which he wont currently eat the fusspot) and then give him a spin in the front boots.  I might just try and hire some back boots to see what difference they make.

Vet said that if he was much Improved in the boots then she would shoe as it was likely he was foot sore whereas if it was only a slight improvement we could blame the LGL


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## Wheels (29 June 2020)

ester said:



			I think they can be helpful in determining how much is sole on hard ground issue and how much is deeper/less direct issue, if that makes sense?

I'd absolutely treat as LGL at this point, without going back through what does he get magnesium wise ATM?
		
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Hes on equimins plus 15 grams magnesium


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## ester (29 June 2020)

I don't think I would get on with your vet. 
If better in boots, he can wear boots not shoes


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## ycbm (29 June 2020)

I wonder what the vet thinks the difference is between sore soles from too much wear and sore soles from laminitis,  in respect of boots making it better.   I can't see her logic.  


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## ycbm (29 June 2020)

I think you have a vet who doesn't want him to be sound barefoot,  she wants to be right about telling you he would never manage it. 

I'm afraid I would trust your vet about barefoot as far as I could throw her. 

You have a horse who was sound without shoes,  then the grass grew.  The obvious answer here is that it is the grass. 

And if it's not,  but it is hard ground wearing the feet too much,  then you can boot to prevent it.  

Either way,  shoes aren't the answer,  afaics.

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## ester (29 June 2020)

All my feeding stuff is a bit historical now, though I can ask mum to weigh the scoop we used for magnesium but I think it has been 30-50g per day (99%) in different locations.


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## Wheels (29 June 2020)

Thank you both 

Because the vet was convinced it is due to too much wear she wants me to stay on soft ground to work him but if hes sounded in boots would it be worth leading out or riding out too or should I leave that for a bit?

I know that early on he was much less foot sore if he walked smooth tarmac a couple of times a week but now with an added complication of lgl is that still advisable?

Is it worth upping the magnesium too esther?


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## Wheels (29 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			I think you have a vet who doesn't want him to be sound barefoot,  she wants to be right about telling you he would never manage it. 

I'm afraid I would trust your vet about barefoot as far as I could throw her. 

You have a horse who was sound without shoes,  then the grass grew.  The obvious answer here is that it is the grass. 

And if it's not,  but it is hard ground wearing the feet too much,  then you can boot to prevent it.  

Either way,  shoes aren't the answer,  afaics.

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I think we might try someone else next time!


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## ycbm (29 June 2020)

Feed him more magnesium until you reach a a point where his wee goes cloudy. The he's just peeing it away, so feed a tad less than that.  

Any work he can do comfortably will help his foot quality,  so if he's sound in boots he should work.  

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## ester (29 June 2020)

Yeah I would up the magnesium, the only time F had a proper crest and tail head fat was when I stopped it. 

The only think I might mention given the latest weather is whether sole is being retained (I have seen a few people post about that this year) we had the issue a couple of years ago, he wasn't comfortable and to a certain extent the extra sole put it nearer the ground. I spent a lot of time waiting for rain that year to decide if feet or higher up. It rained, sole shed naturally, issue resolved.


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## Wheels (29 June 2020)

Thanks esther, I dont think he is retaining sole at the moment, he was a couple of weeks ago, then we had a wet few days and loads of dead sole material came off with the mud when I picked the feet out, his feet look the best they've ever looked but looks are clearly deceiving at the moment.

I'm waiting for today's xrays to be emailed through, will be interesting to see any changes since the ones last autumn


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## ponyparty (29 June 2020)

Wheels said:



			Vet said that if he was much Improved in the boots then she would shoe as it was likely he was foot sore whereas if it was only a slight improvement we could blame the LGL
		
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Huh?! But LGL/sugar sensitivity causes footiness ie footsore. I’m a bit  at your vet (having heard it all before from my old vet). You say he’s cresty, sounds like a candidate for EMS. Getting him off grass and giving soaked hay will tell you soon enough. Movement is super important though, is there any grass free turnout where you are? Otherwise plenty of exercise, if he’s sound enough in the boots that is. With the rain, then sun, then rain the grass is flushing at the minute; super sugary and dangerous. While I wouldn’t wish grass sensitivity/lami/EMS on anyone, I do hope it is “just” that and can thereforebe controlled with management, rather than something else going on as well. 
Footiness is one of the first signs of lami so by shoeing you’d just be masking that and delaying the warning system, so you may not catch it so early next time. 
You don’t mention what pain relief he’s on - mine wouldn’t touch bute but would happily eat Danilon; worth a try if you haven’t already.
Sorry if I’m repeating what anyone else has said... hope he improves v soon!


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## Wheels (30 June 2020)

Thanks pp hes on danilon and I left his feed bucket in, it was gone within the hour.  Hopefully now he knows it wont kill him he'll eat it straight away

We did discuss ems but vet said same as you that it will be diet and exercise to keep it in check


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## ITPersonnage (30 June 2020)

Sack the vet she's never going to be on side. Makes me mad. I've heard the same old cr*p from too many vets before. I wish you all the best it sounds like you know what to do, believe in your own instinct !


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## tallyho! (30 June 2020)

I just don't understand how intelligent vets STILL don't get barefoot 

You problem is not wear... it's diet and sugar. Yes get that weight off... I'm afraid barefoot does mean that you have to manage everything that goes in - but if you get that bit right, you are there!

My mare is 10 yrs barefoot... since a baby and we had lami at xmas so it doesn't evade us all but I know it's something she ate when she broke through next doors woods! Soaked hay religiously weighed out then borrowed an empty barn so no grass. Xrays were only very slightly sunken but after 6 weeks of trimming weekly to keep that toe back she was sound as a pound and xrays showed P£ back where it should be.


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## Wheels (30 June 2020)

Well done tallyho! 

I haven't seen yesterdays xrays yet (not allowed into the clinic due to covid restrictions so waiting for them to be emailed) but apparently all was fine and no rotation or sinking.

Very happily tonight I lightly lunged him on hard and soft with front boots on and he did not look sore in any way shape or form.  Granted he has had 2 sachets of danilon in the last 24 hours but he was really happy to be moving and floated around the school in trot and even offered canter which I let him for a few strides and then back to trot as I didnt want to overdo it on day 1.

What has come along with the lami is a very sore and tight back which will hopefully ease with the bute but I'll book him in for a massage.


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## tallyho! (30 June 2020)

Wheels said:



			Well done tallyho!

I haven't seen yesterdays xrays yet (not allowed into the clinic due to covid restrictions so waiting for them to be emailed) but apparently all was fine and no rotation or sinking.

Very happily tonight I lightly lunged him on hard and soft with front boots on and he did not look sore in any way shape or form.  Granted he has had 2 sachets of danilon in the last 24 hours but he was really happy to be moving and floated around the school in trot and even offered canter which I let him for a few strides and then back to trot as I didnt want to overdo it on day 1.

What has come along with the lami is a very sore and tight back which will hopefully ease with the bute but I'll book him in for a massage.
		
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Thanks Wheels! There was a moment when I thought it was curtains she was so lame - god knows what she ate!


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