# PG injections in the shy breeding mare



## Delicious_D (20 March 2013)

So we have figured out dee is a bit of a shy mare when it comes to her seasons, having successfully fooled us with two lately, the vets have suggested using prostaglandin injections to bring her in again in about 5-7 days time. She was showing a lovely corpus luteum on the scan today.

The vet said the only downsides to the injection are that it might not work, and that she might sweat up a tad. Can i hear your stories (good and bad) about the injections? Have you had any successes and if so, did your mare take first time?


----------



## whisp&willow (20 March 2013)

Like I mentioned in your post in NL (can't get used to it being the tack room!) Whisper had PG when she was away at stud, as she went from being the most outrageous flirt to hiding from the stallion!  

I wasn't there, but there were no ill effects, and she was scanned in foal after the three in hand coverings which are routine at the stud.

carried the foal no problem, gave birth on her own, no complications, and I have a lovely rising three yr old... (well she's lovely most of the time!)

Good luck, I'm sure she'll be fine.  

x


----------



## Delicious_D (20 March 2013)

i cant believe she ovulated on us...sneaky mare! She was very pleased about it and celebrated by untying herself while in the stocks (not going anywhere, just prooving if she wanted too, she could)


----------



## whisp&willow (20 March 2013)

That's horses for you-  always like to make you look a fool!


----------



## Delicious_D (20 March 2013)

bloody mare winked at me last night and yet, i though showing a CL she must have ovulated last week,.... cowbag 

the reasons why i am nervous is as its AI, we only rally get one shot at this at any one time


----------



## Spring Feather (20 March 2013)

I never give my mares prostaglandin shots.  I don't like them and they run contrary to the the way I breed my own mares and to be quite honest to use this drug merely to speed up ovulation by just a few days isn't something I would do to my mares.  Some broodmares who live with me but are owned by other people have been PGd in the past though.  The mares who have been PGd always sweat up and have been mildly distressed by it.  Most of my breeders on my farm are like me and won't PG their mares; some because they don't want to pay extra for something which will only bring their mares into heat 4 or 5 days before they naturally would, and others for the same reason as me.  There can be a number more side effects of prostaglandin as your vet no doubt explained to you.


----------



## Delicious_D (20 March 2013)

The only symptoms he explained was the sweating and probability it might not work. In all fairness to the guy he was staning in for the main repro vet who im seeing on monday to discuss dee with....


----------



## Spring Feather (20 March 2013)

No it often doesn't work, especially at this time of the year.  Many other breeders do PG their mares, I've just never seen much point in doing it tbh and I'm a bit of a fluffy bunny with my broodmares   I do not give them any unnecessary drugs and that works for me and my girls.  Each to their own though 

ETA.  I only breed AI by the way; either fresh or frozen and my mares conception rates are very very good.


----------



## Delicious_D (20 March 2013)

Nothing wrong with being protective of your mares . The reasoning behind its use is we are finding it hard to tell when she is in season, and she seems to cycle quickly, this will give us some understanding/control over it.

We are using chilled as dee cannot travel to the stallion and prefer not to use frozen.


----------



## whisp&willow (20 March 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			I never give my mares prostaglandin shots.  I don't like them and they run contrary to the the way I breed my own mares and to be quite honest to use this drug merely to speed up ovulation by just a few days isn't something I would do to my mares.  Some broodmares who live with me but are owned by other people have been PGd in the past though.  The mares who have been PGd always sweat up and have been mildly distressed by it.  Most of my breeders on my farm are like me and won't PG their mares; some because they don't want to pay extra for something which will only bring their mares into heat 4 or 5 days before they naturally would, and others for the same reason as me.  There can be a number more side effects of prostaglandin as your vet no doubt explained to you.
		
Click to expand...

I would rather we didn't have to give whisp prostaglandin, But she was away at stud with a friend's mare (we shared transport... a long journey!) who was there to be covered in her foaling heat.  This mare was easily covered, as in foaling heat AND had 2 previous foals so knew the routine!  

The only reason I went for the PG was that the other mare was successfully covered, and we needed to travel them back together-  also would have meant paying for another 3 or 4 weeks at least of livery when one mare was successfully covered, and in all honesty, Whisp was not too happy being so far away from home.  (No reflection what so ever on the stud!  She is a bit of a stresser, and very much MY horse!)

If she had been away on her own I think I would have waited for another cycle to see if she came round to the idea on her own, but the way things were it was made sense to give prostaglandin and get the girls back home.


----------



## Spring Feather (20 March 2013)

Yes this early in the season is always unpredictable with their heat cycles.  She'll sort herself out once the weather is lighter for longer.  It's quite unnatural for them to be cycling with regular breeding heats at this time of year.  Tis a wee bit early and I've played with and tried to beat nature when I was younger, less experienced and had more money to throw down the drain  I'm afraid my experience was that nature won!  I accepted that many years ago and have never bothered trying to fight her since lol! 

So funny seeing me with my broodmares, I don't take any nonsense from them, but then I never really have to tell them off as they really are so good, but I am incredibly precious over them   But then they make me a lot of money so they are very valuable to me in more ways than one.


----------



## Spring Feather (20 March 2013)

W&W I see your reasoning   Many breeders do use pg.  I'm just funny about what I give my own mares, however when other broodmare owners on my farm have asked for it then yes I jab their mares with it.  I'm not against it for other people to use as that's their decision, it just plays no part in my own breeding programme


----------



## Delicious_D (20 March 2013)

They are clearly more then a business  maternal attachment maybe  its sweet but still waiting for pictures  

Is it strangely wierd i am very proud of my mare? She was so good for the vet, i was over the moon


----------



## Spring Feather (20 March 2013)

Lol well you'll have to wait a while longer as none of mine are due till the end April - beginning of May.  Next month at this time I'll start getting excited though 

Oh golly no that's not unusual at all.  I'm mega chuffed with my girls each and every time breeding season comes around.  They never fail to impress me with their impeccable manners   So I'm not surprised you are thrilled to bit with how Delicia behaved.  She's such a good girl


----------



## Delicious_D (20 March 2013)

She is a very good girlie. Im excited for you! How many do you have due to faoal? I expect ots of fluffy foal pics


----------



## whisp&willow (20 March 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			W&W I see your reasoning   Many breeders do use pg.  I'm just funny about what I give my own mares, however when other broodmare owners on my farm have asked for it then yes I jab their mares with it.  I'm not against it for other people to use as that's their decision, it just plays no part in my own breeding programme 

Click to expand...

I completely agree with you-  if you have the mares and the stallion, or semen on site (or at least in relatively close proximity) then I see absolutely no reason to use Prostaglandin, and I wouldn't either.

I wish it wasn't necessary for Whisp, but no harm, no foul as they say!


----------



## Vickijay (21 March 2013)

I have had mine pg'd in a few times with no ill effects. It was more in the July/August time if year though so time was a factor. I don't think I'd do if ATM as its still early and spring hasn't really sprung so can't really expect mares to feel fruity yet when the weather is so gak!!!


----------



## koeffee (21 March 2013)

I pg mine if they are late in the season to short cycle, never any ill effects, most of the time they work, but a friends mare wouldnt show on the 2 occassions she was pg'd. I would wait for weather to warm up though as its very early and cold still, likely she wont take just yet!


----------



## oldywoldy (21 March 2013)

I certainly would not pg this early in the year.  Let nature take its course - we will pg later on if time is getting tight but would rather not interfere so early in the year as it can really screw up their cycles.  You will just have to keep scanning - it is proving a very tricky year for the thoroughbred industry four mares have gone from here none have taken first time to different stallions - weather is really not helping the mares do not know if they are coming or going!
And these mares have all been under lights since beginning of December and only one of them is a maiden.


----------



## JanetGeorge (21 March 2013)

koeffee said:



			I pg mine if they are late in the season to short cycle, never any ill effects, most of the time they work, but a friends mare wouldnt show on the 2 occassions she was pg'd. I would wait for weather to warm up though as its very early and cold still, likely she wont take just yet!
		
Click to expand...

I'd agree it's a bit early for mares who have stopped cycling over the winter.   I have a couple of 4 year old fillies in being backed and ridden away that have been cycling like clockwork all winter - plus an older mare in work who has done the same - with 3 stallions on the yard we always know when they're in! 

I use PG very routinely later in the season, particularly for mares due to be AI'd rather than covered naturally.  It almost always works then - but we're pretty strict with the 'qualifications' - obviously a CL is essential - but so is a follicle of the 'right' size.  The very odd mare will sweat a bit after the shot - but I can't recall that happening in the last few years since vet changed product.


----------



## gadetra (21 March 2013)

I've had my mare's PG'd with no ill effects.
Happy mini Delicia making!


----------



## Asha (21 March 2013)

we had something better than PG when we put my mare in foal a few years ago. This was an incredibley randy pony. He would always mount her when in season, and he would make sure you could see him doing it to !

So we counted 3 weeks from his 'interest', sent her to stud, and she was covered the next day. Bingo ! caught first time.

We did use PG the other year, which worked well, no side effects at all. Again took she first time.

Good luck.


----------



## Delicious_D (21 March 2013)

Can i borrow said randy pony 

Ive spolke with the vet today (the repo vet not the stand in) and she thinks that its a good idea with dee to have the PG injection as she only really shows when ridden and currently isnt ridden so not showing . Typical. 

Shes being scanned on monday afternoon to check the stage of the CL and her follical size and based on that she will go into the vets to be scanned and checked more frequaintly and, if needs be, injected.


----------



## Spring Feather (21 March 2013)

Good luck and I hope it all goes smoothly for you and Delicia   It's the best feeling when the scan confirms your own feelings that your mare is pregnant!  It's always a cause for celebration in my household


----------



## Asha (21 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			Can i borrow said randy pony 

. 

Click to expand...

We sold him last year Otherwise I imagine he would have enjoyed helping you !!)

He was amazing, and funnily enough he was called Perky !

He was fantastic with the babies as they where growing up too. 

He would have LOVED your mare, shes just his type.


----------



## crellow4 (21 March 2013)

I have used PG, but again MUCH later in the season. I can see no reason to use PG in March - mare is probably having transitional cycles and even if you AI in time you may not get a pregnancy. Give her a month or so to sort herself out.


----------



## Delicious_D (21 March 2013)

SF there will be a lot of celebration in D-towers if she is pregnant . 

Deedee would have loved randy pony.  I love his name . 

I can understand the reservations regarding PG buy unless I keep taking dee back and forth to the vet we might miss more seasons.  unfortunately taking her to stud isn't an option ATM x


----------



## crellow4 (21 March 2013)

Why not wait until she's cycling normally and have the vet come to you? It's VERY early in the covering season and I can see no reason to start using drugs at such an early stage.


----------



## Delicious_D (21 March 2013)

dee had a transitional cycle very early on this season and a further two more. I have spoken at lenght with my vet and as i want an earlyish foal and due to dee seemingly hiding her seasons it was deemed the best course of action.


----------



## Spring Feather (21 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			dee had a transitional cycle very early on this season and a further two more. I have spoken at lenght with my vet and as i want an earlyish foal and due to dee seemingly hiding her seasons it was deemed the best course of action.
		
Click to expand...

She's probably not hiding them, she's just not cycling regularly yet   I think there's a bit of misunderstandings going on with some new breeders.  If the mares are not having regular heats but just transitionals (which is perfectly normal at this time of year), it's actually kind of difficult *making* them have them, unless as said earlier they are put under lights and given domperidone (not to be confused by Dom Perignon which is what we have when we see that little blob on the scanner 16 days later! ).  No amounts of prostaglandin will bring the mare into a good breeding heat if she isn't ready yet.  PG is generally used later in the season when you're running out of time ie. stallion owner closes their books for the season.  Transitional heats are actually there for a purpose.  However, if as you say, your mare is having regular heat cycles already then she should get pregnant (providing there are no other problems).  My girls are top notch at taking on their first attempt even though I often only use a half dose of frozen semen.

I have some mares here, who when are cycling regularly, have very quiet heat cycles.  I watch them like a hawk though and know them very well indeed (you have to with mares like this!) and the minute I see just something out of the ordinary (and no they don't have to be gagging over the fence at my teasing gelding to show ) I start to pay even closer attention to them and scan them.  Touch wood I've never missed a breeding date so far.

Anyway, it's all very exciting for you and I don't want to dampen your spirits, I and the other more experienced breeders are merely pushing the point about being careful to not let your wallet take unnecessary strikes when the outcome of success may be slim at this time of the year.  I suspect many have done it, like I did, and been bitten, but I guess we all have to learn by our mistakes (however I REALLY do hope that D and the other mare do take this early as then we have someone to follow and have a bit of excitement happening on this forum before everyones foals start arriving)


----------



## crellow4 (21 March 2013)

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...kQFjAE&usg=AFQjCNHhMKsp1speFMFrR1B3K2d2DWcJHw
This article makes some good points.


----------



## Delicious_D (21 March 2013)

Dee is very quiet in her heats, the only reaction i ever have had is shes stuffy to ride, thats all. Shes highly strung as it is so being 'that time of the month' is no different then normal. 

SF i am so reieved im not the only one to read that as Dom periignon  . I dont feel so bad now 

Its very exciting and i reay do appreicate all the help and support you have given me. I might be letting my heart rule my head, but im hoping for the best all the same . I love this time of year! My facebook is already filled with foal pictures, so cute and also, not helping. lol


----------



## Delicious_D (21 March 2013)

right...ill give you three guesses whos come into season tonight....


----------



## crellow4 (21 March 2013)

I thought you said she'd already ovulated? She may be showing the signs of being in season, but if she ovulated at the beginning of the week there is nothing further you can do at this point.
This might help;

The oestrous cycle has two components:
1.    oestrus (heat) in which the mare is receptive to the stallion and the ovum is shed or ovulated. Oestrus usually lasts 4-7 days but the length is very variable.  Oestrus periods are longest in spring (i.e. first heat of year). Oestrus usually ends approximately 24 hours (0-48 hours) after ovulation. The changes in the reproductive tract and in the mares behavioural patterns are under endocrine and psychological control.  Because the oestrus period is characterised by the rapid development of the follicle that will release the oocyte at ovulation, this period is also known as the follicular phase of the cycle.

2.   dioestrus which is a period of sexual quiescence. During this 14-16 day period the mare will not accept mating by the stallion. However, there are many changes occurring in the ovary and uterus during the dioestrus period. Immediately after oestrous, the ovary and uterus set about establishing a suitable environment for the foetus. The ovary supplies one of the hormones, progesterone, that are required for the early establishment of pregnancy.

Figure 2: Rough Diagrammatic Outline of the Events that Occur During Oestrus and Dioestrus Phases in the Mare.

Progesterone is supplied from a structure called the corpus luteum, which develops from the follicle from which the ovum was shed. Progesterone prevents the mare from coming back in heat and also stimulates the lining of the uterus (the endometrium) so that it can receive and promote the development of the foetus. It is important to remember that all of these changes take place, regardless of whether the mare is pregnant or not.  What happens subsequently depends on whether the mare has successfully conceived or not.


Cycle length
  This is defined as the interval between two successive oestrous ovulations. This is  a more accurate measurement than the end of one heat to the end of the next.  Cycle length is usually 21 ± 2 days but it is very variable. The oestrous cycle typically lasts 21 days (five days of oestrus and 16 of dioestrus).
Longest cycle length occurs in spring. 
If cycle length is shorter than 18 days
 suspect endometritis.



Anoestrus
Prolonged period of ovarian inactivity.  Usually occurs in winter and early spring, depending on mare and management system.  Anoestrous can occasionally occur in summer, especially in lactating mares.  There may be small follicles up to 15 mm in ovaries. However, these are not ovulated and so there will not be a functional corpus luteum (CL).

Transitions from anoestrus to regular cycles (vernal transition) occurs in late winter or early spring, depending on mare and management. The transitional period is characterised by distinctive reproductive and behavioural patterns. For instance, during this period, the ovaries are becoming active. However while follicles begin to develop, they do not reach maturity and ovulation does not occur.
·      Variable follicular activity with many follicles, some reaching ovulatory size before becoming atretic;
·      Erratic oestrous behaviour.  Oestrus behaviour may last more than a month before the first ovulation occurs.

Interoestrus
Describes the interval between two successive heats.  Usually 14-16 days in length, but may be longer early in the year.  May be short if CL lysed due to endometrits or after prostaglandin (PG) administration.


----------



## Delicious_D (21 March 2013)

The vet who scanned her thought she had, but it wasnt our repo vet, she tried to break out to the stallions this afternoon and have been squirting like crazy, the YO called to let us know.


On another note, are you still intersted in Multicolour? Someone posted on facebook the stud is having an open day 23rd of March (http://www.brackenspastud.co.uk/PBN...kenspa-stud-farm-T0/brackenspa-stud-farm.html).


----------

