# Dutch Gag with roundings VS Cheltenham Gag. Advice needed please



## mastermax (19 November 2009)

After an interesting half an hours hunting, I realised with some dismay, that my amazing, confidence giving "old" pony has re-ignited his love of hunting and quickly lost all brakes!!!! Bless Him!!!. He was in a rubber pelham which might as well have been cotton for what good it did.
I dont want to give up on him so was wondering whether to put him in a dutch gag with roundings on the bottom two rings (couldnt cope with two reins as I get cramps in my hands) OR do I put him in a Cheltenham Gag so he can realise straight away I have him and then perhaps we can both have a gentler hunt without pulling and hopefully can stay in control?
I would welcome any suggestions or advice please. Many thanks in advance.


----------



## chestnut cob (19 November 2009)

It's no fun when they're like that, is it?! 

I'm not personally a fan of dutch gags, have never got on well with them.  My horses have either run straight through them, or in the case of my current horse, run backwards everytime I touched the rein (I used two reins).  I'd try a cheltenham gag with 2 reins - they are designed for 2, same as dutch gags and pelhams.


----------



## spacefaer (19 November 2009)

In what way is he strong? Does he run with his head on the floor or stick his head in the air, or snatch the reins out of your hands?  You can only decide on a bit when you know what action you need from it.  

A Cheltenham gag will get his head off the floor, if that's what you want. It should also be used with 2 reins, so you only use the gag action when you need it, not all the time. Most people do use it with just the one rein though.

I'm not a fan of Dutch gags either - they rub the horse's face more often than not. Putting roundings on would negate the whole point of the leverage action of the bit too, so you would really have no brakes!


----------



## mastermax (19 November 2009)

Thanks for your replies. He is strong in as much as he sticks his head in the air and just runs with it, so there is a feeling of NO control. Horrible feeling! I would like to bit him so we are not pulling against each other,he knows I am in control and then hopefully we can both enjoy it. Thanks


----------



## chestnut cob (19 November 2009)

Do you have a martingale on?  That should help with the head in the air.  All I've found that dutch gags do is make them put their heads on their chest, then you may as well be out in a headcollar because you have nothing at all in your hands.

I would suggest you just try as many bits as possible.  I've tried my big, strong hunter in a Dr Bristol, a kimblewick, a dutch gag with 2 reins &amp; waterford mouthpiece, a mullen mouth pelham, a waterford snaffle... finally settled on a single jointed pelham with 2 reins, grackle noseband and martingale.


----------



## runaway (19 November 2009)

Can I suggest that whichever bit you choose, hack him out in it first. This obviously wont give you any indication as to the braking power but it will let you both get a feel for it e.g. the new action. (sorry to sound condesending) My dad didn't do this once and had more problems than anticipated.

Not tried one myself but several people talk about a Tom Thumb, believe it is quite "harsh". See a lot of pictures of people hunting with the Shire packs using Cheltenham's with one rein, which my dad is guilt of too but he can't cope with 2 reins (hangs head in shame on behalf of dad!!) and his whip. Horse goes well in it and they have less pulling arguements so horse is less dead in mouth now.


----------



## mastermax (19 November 2009)

Thanks CC thats a good idea to try as many as possible. Only snag is where to borrow them from before I buy the right one. Yes, Runaway, makes really good sense. Wouldnt want to get back out there and just have the problem compounded. I will take him in the school and hack him out to let him get a feel of it. I had also planned to canter him across the fields so I get a bit of a feel as to the brakes. Thanks so much for replies.


----------



## chestnut cob (19 November 2009)

Definitely worth trying before you go hunting.  I also tried a double and a Myler ported barrel but my horse hated both - never got beyond, respectively, a hack and the school, with those too.  He spent the entire hack with his head in the air, threatening to go up, in the double, and everytime I even touched the rein slightly in the Myler, he would stop dead and either threaten to go up or yank his head to the floor.  You don't want that on the hunting field!!

Are you on a livery yard?  If so, that's where I borrow most of my bits from!


----------



## spacefaer (19 November 2009)

If he sticks his head in the air, try a standing martingale rather than a running - then he's not socking himself in the mouth with the contact on the reins every time he puts his head up 

Very traditional martingale - you'll see a lot of them on the hunting field - and yes, you can jump in them 

In terms of trying different bits,does anyone know if the Bit Bank still exists??


----------



## mastermax (19 November 2009)

Thanks CC but no, we have our own yard and only have the more sedate traditional bits. I do however have a showjumping standing martingale that we bought for one of our ex racers and never used. It has an elastic insert for a little more give. That might be worth digging out of moth balls and trying to prevent him sticking his head up so far. its such a shame because on normal everyday riding he is an absolute star, slightly bolshy in the stable but I wil never change that now at his age!!


----------



## MrWoof (19 November 2009)

I think, from prior experience on hard pullers, that Continental Gags are a load of rubbish. Try a "proper" Cheltenham Gag with two reins. Ride off the top rein and use the bottom when brakes fail. Otherwise, as my late father said (as did most of his generation) "if it won't stop in a Snaffle, use a Double Bridle". A Kimblewick is quite severe with a curb chain. Never use a bit designed for double reins with "roundings" as roundings totally negate the action of the bit. A Sam Marsh Pelham works wonders - but only in very light hands.


----------



## joe_carby (19 November 2009)

i would say a dutch gag and put a curb strap on my hunter last season went from being a train pre alterations to a perfect gent within a minute of me adding a curb strap whilst out hunting.


----------



## Starbucks (19 November 2009)

Do other people do this or is it just a Rockwood thing?


----------



## MrWoof (19 November 2009)

i would say a dutch gag and put a curb strap on my hunter last season went from being a train pre alterations to a perfect gent within a minute of me adding a curb strap whilst out hunting.
		
Click to expand...

Now that is very interesting. However, how does one attach a curb chain to a Continental Gag please??


----------



## vallin (19 November 2009)

j_c do you have a picture of that because someone was talking about it in another post and I couldn't picture it?


----------



## chestnut cob (19 November 2009)

You don't use a curb chain, you use a leather strap.  I used an old flash strap done up between the snaffle rings.


----------



## Starbucks (19 November 2009)

Spur straps are what my mum uses.  you put it through the top rings that your cheek pieces attach to.


----------



## MrWoof (19 November 2009)

You don't use a curb chain, you use a leather strap.  I used an old flash strap done up between the snaffle rings.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you - never heard of that before. Does it work on a really hard (leany) puller?


----------



## chestnut cob (19 November 2009)

Yes, top rings, I don't know why I put snaffle rings.  Blame it on the spinning class tonight, neither my brain nor body is working now!

I'd never have thought of using spur straps but I reckon they'd be better than a flash.


----------



## vallin (19 November 2009)

Ok thanks, I think I get it, so you just do it up losely, and then when you apply brakes it works in the same way as a curb, cool 
Sorry for post hijack! Think that's what I'll be trying my girl in...if I can find a 4 3/4 inch that is!


----------



## vallin (19 November 2009)

top rings as in the ones you attatch the cheek pieces to right?


----------



## chestnut cob (19 November 2009)

Well.... I put it on my hard/leany puller and he refused to go forwards at all.  Spent all day going upwards and backwards.  So yes, I guess you could say it does!      I think it's just more correct to use a dutch gag with 2 reins and a curb strap, and guess that theoretically, it should make it a bit stronger with a strap..?


----------

