# Horse throwing tantrums- how to deal with it?



## Kokopelli (2 September 2012)

A lovely horse I'm riding atm has starting throwing some serious tantrums. Everything physical is fine and I know it is all just temper. 

For example out hacking I made him wait on the verge for a car he didn't want to so went up, I smacked him behind the leg and he went forward with a buck. That was fine I let him go forward for a little bit then brought him back to walk and made him halt until I was happy then walked on this time without issue. Later on in hack he throws a bigger tantrum because he didn't want to go through a puddle (couldn't go round) this involved fly bucking, rearing, plunging and just general being an idiot. I unfortunatly had to get off lead him through then got back on and made him walk back through puddle twice before I let him carry on with hack.

In the school he's quite happy to plod along on a loose rein but when you pick him up and start asking for work he really throws his toys out the pram. The involves fly bucking, broncing, the odd rear and just bombing round the school. He'll do this for about 10mins then he does the most beautiful work for the rest of the session. When he misbehaves in the school I just sit still and pretend he's not doing it and continue to ask him to work into the contact. I ask by holding a light contact and pushing him into it. No black and decker sawing. When he goes up I will smack him but when he's bucking and being an idiot I just keep pushing into the contact until eventually he behaves.

On the ground he has a similar temper he bites which I reprimand but it doesn't seem to work. The other day he bit me whilst untacking and I smacked him with the girth and he hasn't bit me since so I think that has done the trick. If he's in his stable and doesn't want to be he rears over the door and if he's out and wants to come in he jumps the fence (bloody huge fence) and brings himself in. If he runs out of food (doesn't happen often as is on adlib) he goes nuts.

I just need tips on dealing with him, I really think that once he respects me on the ground he will be better to ride but I don't want to stop riding as I think some of the issue is lack of work. How would you deal with this horse? He doesn't frighten me it's just frustrating because he is mega talented he just has huge temper.

On the bright side my lovely 14.2 dressage pony is being amazing! I love him!!


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## ROG (2 September 2012)

THIS HELP ?


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## paddi22 (2 September 2012)

the idea of groundwork is good. If i was you i wouldn't ride him till the major issues were sorted. A horse going up on the road is lethal. My lad recently flipped on a girl schooling him. It only takes one time for you to be injured, crippled or dead.

If i were you i'd work him hard on the long line, poles, shoulder-ins, yielding, reversing, halting . He will throw his tantrums but at least you'd be in a safe position on the ground so you can work through them. 

I understand the idea of riding through them, but then you naturally have to put yourself in a fight with them to stop them spinning, rearing etc. On the long line you can just stay passive and calm and let them fight themselves. I think its a much better way to help them realise they are only making it worse for themselves by fighting.


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## Kokopelli (2 September 2012)

ROG said:



THIS HELP ?   

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LOL I wonder if she does horses? 



paddi22 said:



			the idea of groundwork is good. If i was you i wouldn't ride him till the major issues were sorted. A horse going up on the road is lethal. My lad recently flipped on a girl schooling him. It only takes one time for you to be injured, crippled or dead.

If i were you i'd work him hard on the long line, poles, shoulder-ins, yielding, reversing, halting . He will throw his tantrums but at least you'd be in a safe position on the ground so you can work through them. 

I understand the idea of riding through them, but then you naturally have to put yourself in a fight with them to stop them spinning, rearing etc. On the long line you can just stay passive and calm and let them fight themselves. I think its a much better way to help them realise they are only making it worse for themselves by fighting.
		
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Haven't tried long lining but is a really good idea, just worry about the bucking. Had to stop lunging him as he would get too close and buck but I suppose long lining I would have more control. Will give this a go though, cheers.


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## soulfull (2 September 2012)

You say he goes nuts when he is out of food.   Lets himself in and out,  maybe when the hay /grass has run out ???!
I wonder then if he has ulcers??
Some are worse on the right rein, do odd things with their mouth when food is coming.  Not all are girthy my lad isn't but just scoped and he has them.  Sometimes their behaviour is irrational. I wonder if you trying to get him to do something he doesn't want to is just the final straw. 
Does he bite more when he thinks you are going near his stomach?!  My lad used to keep giving me his head or stepping back to avoid me being by 
  It might be worth having him scoped as there is no other way of knowing and supplements won't help actually heal them


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## soulfull (2 September 2012)

Oh just to say. You could try lunging him with nothing on his back after a small feed if chaff.   And then adding saddle/roller gradually tightening the girth as you walk him.  
However If he does have them and they are bad you might not notice the difference. Just the faster work of trot can make the acid splash around


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## Holidays_are_coming (2 September 2012)

When you say everything physical is fine, what checks have u done?? My mare got stroppy and sounds similar her tolerance level for everything just dropped my vet could see nothing so I got her sent to rossdales she was barely lame but had discomfort in her SI and hocks only diagnosed by a bone scan after treatment she has completely changed


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## Kokopelli (2 September 2012)

Ulcers was also my immediete thought when I was told about him but he was scoped andcame back clear. I'll write a list of everything that has been checked, he is not my own but I'm trying to sort his issues out of owners and sell on once I think he is safe but they got loads of health checks done before.

Scoped for ulcers and clear
Back checked by 3 diff reputable people
Saddle checked also by a handful of people riding bareback also gets the same issues
Teeth done by vet then re-done by proper equine dentist
He has been nerve blocked I think (not 100% sure on the inns and outs of this)
Scanned for KS
Full lameness work up
Have tried a variety of saddles/ bridles/ bits/ bitless bridles etc 

I really believe it is pure temper, he's been allowed to get away with it and now I'm challengin his behaviour he doesn't like it. He also brings himself in whenever he fancies normally when its 5 and it's time to come in (likes his routine) or another time is if it's raining. 

Have also put him on magnesium calmer and has made a slight difference but he's still an idiot, not sure if it's more of a placebo effect on my part.


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## kerilli (2 September 2012)

i don't think it's helpful to you to think of them as tantrums, tbh. he's reacting to something, if not physical then mental (not in the worst meaning of the word!) maybe he's just overreacting to you asking things of him, impossible to tell without seeing. I would be passively consistent. just ask nicely (tbh i would NOT hit a horse like this), and wait for him to do what you ask, however long it takes. ask again if you have to, but no stronger. just calmly repeat the question until he gives you the answer you want, then loads of praise. keep sessions short and sweet, that sort of thing. show him that life is easier and more fun if he chooses to work WITH you...
a sharp and perhaps aggressive (biting) horse, long-lining? I wouldn't.


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## Lolo (2 September 2012)

Some horses (especially babies/ young horses, I think) do look for fights sometimes. Just to see what you'll do, as they're usually game for a battle... If you just sit it out without anything other than keeping him facing where you want him to go and asking very quietly until he gives in, he might not bother next time?


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## SmallSteps (2 September 2012)

kerilli said:



			i don't think it's helpful to you to think of them as tantrums, tbh. he's reacting to something, if not physical then mental (not in the worst meaning of the word!) maybe he's just overreacting to you asking things of him, impossible to tell without seeing. I would be passively consistent. just ask nicely (tbh i would NOT hit a horse like this), and wait for him to do what you ask, however long it takes. ask again if you have to, but no stronger. just calmly repeat the question until he gives you the answer you want, then loads of praise. keep sessions short and sweet, that sort of thing. show him that life is easier and more fun if he chooses to work WITH you...
		
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^^^^^^^ This. Exactly this. 

Quiet, consistent, patient, calm. If he doesn't want to go through the puddle, we wait by the puddle. Can't go backwards, can't go round, but don't rush or hit him, just wait, facing the puddle, until he is ready. Let him have the panic, you are the calm one. His confidence will improve.


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## showpony (2 September 2012)

Honestly I don't think things like smacking him with the girth are going to help! Go back to basics, and try possibly free schooling before riding.


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## Cedars (3 September 2012)

Agree with the passive approach. Am nowhere near as good a rider as you all but have a similar mare on the ground. Smacking works short term (and I understand why you smacked him and would have done the same!!), and if she's being really dangerous she gets a smack, but longer term its the calm, 'we will just wait here until you're ready' approach that works best. 

My OHs horse has similar tantrums when working and when going into the contact. He will happily give you a false contact (head in right place but bum trailing behind and nothing over his back) or he'll just get faster and faster with his head in the air. OH and both instructors have worked on this by getting him into the school, having reins fairly loose, allowing him to put his head pretty much wherever he wants, then working him forward - the phrase being 'forward into the contact'. OH will also sit in a light seat through this, so pony really warms up and opens up through his back. When he's really working forward, loads of smart transitions, and their first canter work done, then OH starts to collect up the rein and then ask for a proper contact. When done like this, pony has completely stopped his 'waving at the crowd'!!!!


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## BethH (3 September 2012)

My horse was like this and it was due to discomfort (kissing spines which I fully appreciate you have checked for) but it became learned behaviour and could be pretty worrying.  My saving grace was to get long lining lessons from a really good groundwork trainer, not lunging with 2 lines as it is completely different body language.  My horse who used to try and kick my head in on the lunge, after a couple if major tantrums took to it like a duck to water, it was incredible to see the difference and I really had fun with him, it does help create a great bond, 6 years on I still long rein him regularly as I find it keeps him switched on to me and assists the riding. Also ground work like backing up and moving over so you are getting control of his body on the ground is key.

Can I also recommend a book called "Perfect Manners" by Kelly Marks.  I don't agree with everything she does but this gave me some great ideas and exercises and also helped me to think about how to tackle things when I was getting stressed.  It's all common sense but sometimes reading the book allowed me to take a step back.  Trust me I felt like beating my horse with a sledge hammer on a daily basis but when they are like this they will fight back and it ends up being completely counter productive.  The above advice is best, wait him out and don't react, it'll spoil his fun and you win.  One of my friends once commented about the twinkle in my horses eye every times he tried to be a git!  Best of luck, this type of attitude can be quite tiring!!!!!


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## siennamum (3 September 2012)

My youngster is like this, he has issues with dominance and can be waay too male for a gelding! He too is wildly impatient, you can't force a horse to stand and you don't want a horse rearing by the side of the road, so I would walk small circles & do some flexing at this point. Ask him to stand for increasing periods and praise wildly when he does, maybe give him a polo or similar to get his attention back on you.

Mine wouldn't go through puddles, that got short shrift frankly. Getting off is postponing the issue, which can be expedient but at some point he has to do stuff you want him to do, and which he doesn't want to do. My policy is, forwards gets lots of praise, planting gets light pressure and backwards gets a telling off. Rearing gets a belt round the ears and spun till forwards is the preffered option. The only thing I would say about yours is that if he has been through a few hands with this behaviour then he will have had lots of battles so avoid them like the plague, and try and be smarter than horse till doing what you want become his default position.

In the school, mine is a dream, he loves to work. Any battles you have are playing right into horses hands, he wants to muck about rather than work, so I would ignore completely and keep asking. Release when he is good, and again backwards or up gets a smack but anything else is either ignored or praised. 

On the ground I would lay down firm guidelines and frankly if I was bitten I would react as you did and use anything that comes to hand. Just make sure you are  really, really effusive with praise and make it clear that life can be fun and enjoyable - on your terms.


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## Kokopelli (3 September 2012)

kerilli said:



			i don't think it's helpful to you to think of them as tantrums, tbh. he's reacting to something, if not physical then mental (not in the worst meaning of the word!) maybe he's just overreacting to you asking things of him, impossible to tell without seeing. I would be passively consistent. just ask nicely (tbh i would NOT hit a horse like this), and wait for him to do what you ask, however long it takes. ask again if you have to, but no stronger. just calmly repeat the question until he gives you the answer you want, then loads of praise. keep sessions short and sweet, that sort of thing. show him that life is easier and more fun if he chooses to work WITH you...
a sharp and perhaps aggressive (biting) horse, long-lining? I wouldn't.
		
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Next time I school I'll ask my mum to video and I'll post them here. When I school him I think I am passively consistent just didn't explain it very well, after about 10mins of this he does start working beautifully we do this nice work for about 10mins lots of praise and we end the session on a good note. The only time I'm not is when he goes up so do you think it would be better to just sit the rear out and when he's on the ground again carry on being passively consistent?



Lolo said:



			Some horses (especially babies/ young horses, I think) do look for fights sometimes. Just to see what you'll do, as they're usually game for a battle... If you just sit it out without anything other than keeping him facing where you want him to go and asking very quietly until he gives in, he might not bother next time?
		
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Will definitely give this and what Kerilli said a go when he rears, my only fear is that if I do nothing he'll just keep doing it which could be dangerous?



SmallSteps said:



			Quiet, consistent, patient, calm. If he doesn't want to go through the puddle, we wait by the puddle. Can't go backwards, can't go round, but don't rush or hit him, just wait, facing the puddle, until he is ready. Let him have the panic, you are the calm one. His confidence will improve.
		
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This was what I was aiming for with puddle incident but he was backing up spinning, planting and rearing there was no way I could get him to stand nicely. Out hacking though this is ther sort of thing I'll aim for hopefully before he gets himself in a tizz.



showpony said:



			Honestly I don't think things like smacking him with the girth are going to help! Go back to basics, and try possibly free schooling before riding.
		
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It was a bit harsh tbh but I don't regret it has he hasn't bit me or lifted a leg to me since, the issue is he knows he's bigger than me and when I tell him off with a growl, a smack or anything else it never made the difference. Didn't think of free schooling thoug not a bad idea might just take the edge off as he is a nightmare to lunge and long rein.



Cedars said:



			Agree with the passive approach. Am nowhere near as good a rider as you all but have a similar mare on the ground. Smacking works short term (and I understand why you smacked him and would have done the same!!), and if she's being really dangerous she gets a smack, but longer term its the calm, 'we will just wait here until you're ready' approach that works best. 

My OHs horse has similar tantrums when working and when going into the contact. He will happily give you a false contact (head in right place but bum trailing behind and nothing over his back) or he'll just get faster and faster with his head in the air. OH and both instructors have worked on this by getting him into the school, having reins fairly loose, allowing him to put his head pretty much wherever he wants, then working him forward - the phrase being 'forward into the contact'. OH will also sit in a light seat through this, so pony really warms up and opens up through his back. When he's really working forward, loads of smart transitions, and their first canter work done, then OH starts to collect up the rein and then ask for a proper contact. When done like this, pony has completely stopped his 'waving at the crowd'!!!!
		
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Will do more of the calm waiting stuff on the ground with him and then hopefully once he respects me more on the ground he will when I ride him. 

The funny thing with the horse is he has amazing back legs that look fantastic so he's always working well from behind but he struggles to get his front legs out the way so to get him working properlly the aim is to collect him slightly so he's being less huge with his back legs and gives him a chance to keep his front legs in time. As soon as he gets the front legs going as well as the back ones he looks fantastic.



BethH said:



			My horse was like this and it was due to discomfort (kissing spines which I fully appreciate you have checked for) but it became learned behaviour and could be pretty worrying.  My saving grace was to get long lining lessons from a really good groundwork trainer, not lunging with 2 lines as it is completely different body language.  My horse who used to try and kick my head in on the lunge, after a couple if major tantrums took to it like a duck to water, it was incredible to see the difference and I really had fun with him, it does help create a great bond, 6 years on I still long rein him regularly as I find it keeps him switched on to me and assists the riding. Also ground work like backing up and moving over so you are getting control of his body on the ground is key.

Can I also recommend a book called "Perfect Manners" by Kelly Marks.  I don't agree with everything she does but this gave me some great ideas and exercises and also helped me to think about how to tackle things when I was getting stressed.  It's all common sense but sometimes reading the book allowed me to take a step back.  Trust me I felt like beating my horse with a sledge hammer on a daily basis but when they are like this they will fight back and it ends up being completely counter productive.  The above advice is best, wait him out and don't react, it'll spoil his fun and you win.  One of my friends once commented about the twinkle in my horses eye every times he tried to be a git!  Best of luck, this type of attitude can be quite tiring!!!!!
		
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It is so tiring and frustrating and totally agree with the sledge hammer!  Will have a look at the book thanks. 



siennamum said:



			My youngster is like this, he has issues with dominance and can be waay too male for a gelding! He too is wildly impatient, you can't force a horse to stand and you don't want a horse rearing by the side of the road, so I would walk small circles & do some flexing at this point. Ask him to stand for increasing periods and praise wildly when he does, maybe give him a polo or similar to get his attention back on you.

Mine wouldn't go through puddles, that got short shrift frankly. Getting off is postponing the issue, which can be expedient but at some point he has to do stuff you want him to do, and which he doesn't want to do. My policy is, forwards gets lots of praise, planting gets light pressure and backwards gets a telling off. Rearing gets a belt round the ears and spun till forwards is the preffered option. The only thing I would say about yours is that if he has been through a few hands with this behaviour then he will have had lots of battles so avoid them like the plague, and try and be smarter than horse till doing what you want become his default position.

In the school, mine is a dream, he loves to work. Any battles you have are playing right into horses hands, he wants to muck about rather than work, so I would ignore completely and keep asking. Release when he is good, and again backwards or up gets a smack but anything else is either ignored or praised. 

On the ground I would lay down firm guidelines and frankly if I was bitten I would react as you did and use anything that comes to hand. Just make sure you are  really, really effusive with praise and make it clear that life can be fun and enjoyable - on your terms.
		
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I think your right with the diff battles thing, he knows how to deal with anything I do with him. The worst is he's learnt that when he goes up and I try and turn him that he can't rear anymore so he refuses to be turned. Glad it wasn't ott with the girth, I thought it was a bit harsh but tbh he hasn't bit me or lifted a leg to me since so it worked. A friend told me to glue a thumb tack to the end of a whip and everythime he goes to bite just jab it in him, not sure I completely agree but can see how it could work.


Thank you for the fab advice everyone, I have a lot to think about and a lot of ideas to try out. Will report back about his behavior soon and see if it makes a difference.


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## Cedars (3 September 2012)

I can lend you that perfect manners book if you want hun?


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## kerilli (3 September 2012)

Honestly, I would ignore him when he prats about... rearing is a lot of effort and if it has NO reaction from the rider most horses give it up. He's doing it as a distraction tactic for you, maybe - "if we have a fight I don't have to do x that she's asked me to do" kind of thing. The most I use when they rear is my voice, usually. 
Watch Endospink's great Rearer Re-loaded vid on youtube for an absolute masterclass in how doing NOTHING brings around a very very tricky horse (that was rearing like an absolute Pro too). Endo's brilliant, and that tactic is so much better than the usual ways of dealing with rearers (bash, tight circles etc).
It takes a lot of self-control from the rider to not react though (esp if the horse's behaviour is dangerous), but if you can just sit up there, bored, and wait for him to stop chucking his toys about, I really do find this is the best way to get the horse on your side as soon as possible...


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## siennamum (3 September 2012)

It's interesting debating rearing. I think if you do nothing when a horse goes up, then you are running the risk of reinforcing the rearing. So you put the leg on, the horse says no and goes up. you take the leg off horse thinks "great, that worked".
Mine rears because before I had him, he learned that rearing was a sure fire way of getting people to stop doing stuff to him that he didn't enjoy. You are generally passive when the horse is in the air, being passive when you are on the ground has a negative effect on mine. the one time I did it he reared, span and tried to go home. He quite clearly said that if I also didn't want to go through the ford then that was great- finally he had me round to his way of thinking.
The only time I am passive on mine is when he is going forwards in the direction I've told him to go in. When he is on the ground I am quietly insistent, when he is in the air he is feeling my hand/whip/reins - whatever is to hand round his ears. He rarely rears these days, last year when he was 5 I only had to let him see the whip out of the corner of his eye and he would change his mind about rearing. 
recently I have been more passive and he has had a couple of sessions where he has said no, so I think he probably needs putting back in his box.
I think you have to try and stop the rearing before it starts, which is why moving the horses head sideways, or gettign the horse so forwards that it can't rear are effective with mine. Being stationary with the horse in control of his body was completely counter productive.

Like your horse OP mine will stad and rear in his stable, he will stand and rear while tied up. He enjoys rearing, he is very well balanced and thinks it's great fun to stand and wave at the world.


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## imr (3 September 2012)

I think its really hard without seeing it and knowing the horse tbh - some will respond well to being smacked and others won't. 
My oldie did the occasional rear when young and naughty. As he would never go over and it was infrequent I mostly just went up the neck and waited for him to come down to earth, and then coaxed decent behaviour out of him. He is very much the type not to have a full on fight with but to coax and find ways around issues. My youngster now is totally different - I have done too much coaxing and not enough being firm and actually made a little problem, which if I had jsut been firmer in the first place I wouldnt have. She does the whole do i have to work today I will just try planting and see thing, and tbh a smack behind the girth and a bit of positivity and she then jsut gets on with it. She discovered rearing a few months back and thought it was great and kept doing it -  so I just stuck her on the lunge til she was knackered and then got back on, with some draw reins so she couldnt get her head up and a few sessions like that and it went away but just sitting the rears out would have just meant more rearing because thats the way it was going. 
I also think that you are worrying too much about the naughtiness at the start of your session, as long as you get through it, thats the most important - either way, I do think that you could try lungeing/free schooling before you get on.


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## kerilli (3 September 2012)

hmm, i know what you mean, but i don't think the horse is saying No to the leg when it rears, but to the question. if you turned him round and put the leg on he'd go "Yes, okay, don't have to face the frightening/difficult thing now" (unless he has a brain tumour or something, in which case logic goes out of the window,  maybe he won't go in any direction without a battle.) But the leg isn't the problem. 
Sometimes a quick growl and a slap when the thought vaguely crosses their mind is enough, but with a lot of them that's all they need to make them ramp it up... depends on individual horse's attitude obv!
Usually you get a reasonable warning that they are thinking of rearing... they stop, they go very light in front, maybe they give a threatening hop in front. At this point doing NOTHING is, I think, the most successful tactic. He's looking for an argument, he's saying "if you ask, I'll do THIS", so you don't ask. you just wait. you wait, facing the problem, until his brain goes "ummm.... ummm... no battle? no insistence? just got to contemplate the question...?"
btw, imr, i absolutely don't see where this myth that a horse cannot rear in draw reins comes from, but i think it's a very dangerous one. they're the LAST thing i'd put on a rearer. a lot of rearers tuck their nose in as they rear - draw reins don't prevent them going up, but can prevent them thinking forward... and the one thing you want a rearer to do is think forward!


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## TarrSteps (3 September 2012)

I think imr makes the essential point when having this conversation on the Internet - you really cannot tell without context.  

There is a danger of confusing behaviour with motivation.  Horses don't buck/rear/bite/nap/get quick/stick/whatever for one reason and one reason only, anymore than people only yell for one reason.  If I say I saw a woman yelling on the street would that tell you if she'd just won the lottery, lost her keys, or lost her child?

All a response means is that the horse is under pressure.  That's also the problem with learning this stuff from videos - very useful for learning tools but almost by definition you are watching an experienced professional who has likely assessed the situation and made a judgement call in seconds, perhaps even subconsciously.  

And, of course, the wrong approach can mean disaster.

On the subject of biting though, in my opinion there is NEVER an excuse for a horse to bite someone.  Touching the puny human without permission is always a no go.  The flip side of this is, of course, that I have to be careful not to give horses reason to bite me (i.e. not cranking the girth up) and to listen before the horse feels the need to take it that far.  But if the horse already thinks it's acceptable behaviour then we are going to have words. There is a big difference between understanding a behaviour and accepting it.

To the OP, you mention that your remit is to help sell this horse on when it's "fixed". . . . Be very, very careful.  First, the horse's past behaviour MUST be disclosed, which is going to make it tricky and pretty much a "professional's horse" even if its behaviour is markedly improved.  Secondly, if you're experienced enough to be sorting a horse like this as business (even if you're not getting paid) then you know that if this is truly from temperament, rather than, say, a physical issue you can get to the bottom of, there is a strong chance the behaviour will resurface in a new environment.  Just think carefully on how the situation may impact on you.


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## paddi22 (3 September 2012)

completely agree with the point above about not putting draw reins on a rearer!

However i think the spinning, disengaging hind quarters can work better as a method on some rearers, instead of doing nothing.

My exracer loves to rear, it's his default action in the field playing. When he started to do it under saddle i tried both methods for a period  - first sitting it out. Her just seemed to like the release of tension and kept doing it. Every session would include a few rears.

Then i tried spinning him as soon as I felt that lightness, and making him stand with his neck flexed till he'd calmed down. That method worked much better on him as he soon realised anytime he thought of rearing he was made work harder.  Now we can go into any situation and as soon as i feel a slight lightness, il flex him, calm him and then send him forward with loads of reward once he moves on. 

I think it depends on the horse, for my lad rearing isn't a lot of effort, it's a default move he does, so sitting it out on him doesn't seem to work.


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## imr (3 September 2012)

kerilli said:



			hmm, i know what you mean, but i don't think the horse is saying No to the leg when it rears, but to the question. if you turned him round and put the leg on he'd go "Yes, okay, don't have to face the frightening/difficult thing now" (unless he has a brain tumour or something, in which case logic goes out of the window,  maybe he won't go in any direction without a battle.) But the leg isn't the problem. 
Sometimes a quick growl and a slap when the thought vaguely crosses their mind is enough, but with a lot of them that's all they need to make them ramp it up... depends on individual horse's attitude obv!
Usually you get a reasonable warning that they are thinking of rearing... they stop, they go very light in front, maybe they give a threatening hop in front. At this point doing NOTHING is, I think, the most successful tactic. He's looking for an argument, he's saying "if you ask, I'll do THIS", so you don't ask. you just wait. you wait, facing the problem, until his brain goes "ummm.... ummm... no battle? no insistence? just got to contemplate the question...?"
btw, imr, i absolutely don't see where this myth that a horse cannot rear in draw reins comes from, but i think it's a very dangerous one. they're the LAST thing i'd put on a rearer. a lot of rearers tuck their nose in as they rear - draw reins don't prevent them going up, but can prevent them thinking forward... and the one thing you want a rearer to do is think forward!
		
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I know what you mean kerilli - sorry - i wouldnt want anyone assuming its the magic solution to the problem so only use them if you think they will work - my mare won't rear with them on because she chucks her head up and chin out when she rears and does not tuck her nose in. The effect of the draw reins is the thinks about the air above the ground, lifts head and then thinks  "hmmm - i can't get my head up so this isnt going to work today".  Having had a session of 3 or 4 rears I ignored followed by one where she just decided to rear repeatedly when asked to do anything at all I just wanted to nip the behaviour in the bud before it became a nasty habit, and it did work.


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## kerilli (3 September 2012)

Ah okay. That makes sense. The thing is, someone who comes and rides with me knew a kid in Essex years ago who put draw reins on a difficult pony and it reared over backwards and killed her... so when I heard the old "they can't rear with draw reins on" (which, actually, wasn't precisely what you said, I see now!) it makes my blood run a bit cold...


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## Kokopelli (3 September 2012)

We're definitely not going down draw rein route, he likes to drop behind the contact before he goes up and sometimes in the school so with ny RI we've been making sure that under no circumstances can he drop behind the contact, this works well for a bit then he gets annoyed so will have a buck or a bronc.

Tonight I will try passive when he goes up, I suppose it is trial and error. He does do a small warning like a little hop in front and normally when he does that I give him a smack and send him forward and he won't try it again for a little bit. But tonight I'll try ignoring it completely and see what happens. Luckily although he goes pretty high I don't feel like he'll come over.

Have definitely thought about his issues when he is ready to be sold on and what were going to do is video his behaviour and show any potential buyers, also whoever gets him can have him ob trial for a week and if a couple of months down the line he gets too bad I'm not going to bury my head in the sand I'll either help the buyer get through it or have a long think as to if he is a suitable riding horse.

Luckily he has a lot of potential in dressage


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## Kokopelli (3 September 2012)

Sorry stupid phone...

He has potential in dressage so it is worth getting him through the quirks. I know it seems like a lot of effort for one horse with little gain for me but I really don't want to see him pts and he deserves another chance.


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## millitiger (3 September 2012)

kerilli said:



			hmm, i know what you mean, but i don't think the horse is saying No to the leg when it rears, but to the question. if you turned him round and put the leg on he'd go "Yes, okay, don't have to face the frightening/difficult thing now" (unless he has a brain tumour or something, in which case logic goes out of the window,  maybe he won't go in any direction without a battle.) But the leg isn't the problem.
		
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Not always unfortunately! 
When Vinnie is napping, he will get so wired and wound up that even when you turn him around to go back towards home (I had to turn around on the drive to let a trailer in) he still napped against the leg and refused to go forward!
No brain tumour as far as we are aware (!), he just gets so focussed on not responding to the leg that he won't respond even when I am asking him to go home 

I think its very hard to tell someone over the internet how to deal with a naughty/tricky horse as we don't know why he is doing it or how he will react to any action/non-action the rider takes.

Some rearers I have sat on, need a good smack up their bum when they land and sending forward very hard. 
Some rearers I've sat on would turn inside out if you did the above and it would make the situation 1000 x worse.
Some can't even cope with standing still/no reaction from the rider and without direction and instruction (even when napping) they can become worse and worse with a passive rider.

OP, what does your instructor/the owner/past rider say about how you are dealing with it and whether anything else has worked in the past etc?

I would be very wary about being associated with a horse like you describe if they are planning to sell on as so many of these horses revert when they have a new home/rider.


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## Kokopelli (3 September 2012)

Owner tells me to get a big stick and beat the crap out of it. Someone who used to ride him said draw reins helped with bucking but not rearing so she tried a market harbrough tbh she sounds like the sort of person who just tries loads of gadgets. 

Me and instructor are working on prevention rather than what to do when he misbehaves. For example he is not allowed at anytime to drop behind the contact and he is always kept in front of the leg. When he bucks and broncs I grab my neck strap and ignore him but I find it harder to ignore the rearing.

Thanks again everyone for the fab advice


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## icestationzebra (3 September 2012)

Kokopelli said:



			Owner tells me to get a big stick and beat the crap out of it. QUOTE]

Which is most likely why this horse is like it is in the first place......
		
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## BethH (3 September 2012)

For what it's worth I have to agree with Kerilli, I really have gone through hell with my horse - I took the well meaning advice from friends about how he was playing me up and trying it on and I had to show him who was in charge, I was told to wack him when he reared and dominate him to prove I was in charge of him - I have to say this is really not my style and makes me deeply uncomfortable when horses are gracious enough to allow you to put a lump of metal in their mouths and sit on their backs but he was a total nightmare so I decided to try it.  

Luckily I was in the school when I decided to take him on, well I lost!  He reared higher every time I wacked him, went over backwards and I was incredible luckily that he twisted away so as not to land on me when I flew off backwards with him, the thing is he is such a lovely character that I knew straight away i had just got it incredibly wrong and there was no way I could build a relationship of trust with him unless I found another way, I then decided to ignore said advice of more experienced horsemen and bought Perfect Manners and a couple of other books and got some decent lessons in groundwork training.  I have had Ryan for 9years now he is still tricky but I have learned alot, the most important lesson I think is that there is always a reason for his behaviour and it is never based on human logic!


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## paddi22 (3 September 2012)

Exactly, different approaches work for different horses.

That's why i like the long lining for rears, it allows you to be objective and analytical when faced with the rearing situations and frees you from your stream of consciousness survival flow when you're on board ( eg oh sh¨t he's going up, is he balanced, am i balanced,  is he coming down, is he falling back etc)

I realised with my lad that he couldn't handle me being completely passive when he reared. He almost felt paniced at what to do next and would go up and up again unless i reacted. i also learn that punishment when he went up didn't work as is just made him worse. The only thing that worked for him was flexing, but with another horse it helped me discover pushing him harder was the way through it and a roar and a smack was the way to go. 

It also helped me analyse behaviours before and after the rears that i hadn't picked up on before. One lad braces his neck to left and then goes up then after the rear he plunges right and always spins right.   

I find this stuff really useful as it helps you when you are back on board. I think analsying from the safety of the ground is invaluable and gives you the freedom to try different approaches without the danger of the horse flipping back on you.


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## Sandstone1 (3 September 2012)

showpony said:



			Honestly I don't think things like smacking him with the girth are going to help! Go back to basics, and try possibly free schooling before riding.
		
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Well said! Smacking him with the girth really not going to help!


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## Kokopelli (3 September 2012)

Just a little update- rode tonight and was passive throughout rearing. The first time he went up quite high which was worrying then second was just a little hop and he didn't do anymore rears. He then reverted to putting his head between his knees and rodeoing round the arena. After abot half a lap he got bored then worked very nicely and even did some baby half passes.



icestationzebra said:



			Which is most likely why this horse is like it is in the first place......
		
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Totally agree, although I think he probably threw the odd buck or little rear every now and again I think he has been made worse by this attitude.



paddi22 said:



			Exactly, different approaches work for different horses.

That's why i like the long lining for rears, it allows you to be objective and analytical when faced with the rearing situations and frees you from your stream of consciousness survival flow when you're on board ( eg oh sh¨t he's going up, is he balanced, am i balanced,  is he coming down, is he falling back etc)

I realised with my lad that he couldn't handle me being completely passive when he reared. He almost felt paniced at what to do next and would go up and up again unless i reacted. i also learn that punishment when he went up didn't work as is just made him worse. The only thing that worked for him was flexing, but with another horse it helped me discover pushing him harder was the way through it and a roar and a smack was the way to go. 

It also helped me analyse behaviours before and after the rears that i hadn't picked up on before. One lad braces his neck to left and then goes up then after the rear he plunges right and always spins right.   

I find this stuff really useful as it helps you when you are back on board. I think analsying from the safety of the ground is invaluable and gives you the freedom to try different approaches without the danger of the horse flipping back on you.
		
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I do want to try long lining just worried about the other issues like kicking out, bucking and bombing. I suppose if I give it a go back protector, hat and be very spacially aware of him so I can jump out the way when I know. 



itsmylife said:



			Well said! Smacking him with the girth really not going to help!
		
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As I said previously it was a one off thing done on his shoulder not massively hard. He has zero respect for people and that has instilled a bit of respect for me, since doing it he hasn't bitten me or lifted a leg to me once so obviously it has helped. It's not like I beat the crap out of him.


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## kerilli (3 September 2012)

Good to hear that he gave up the rearing so quickly, hope he gives up the broncing quickly too.
I would be very wary of long-reining a horse who kicks out and bucks. I am not a fan of it... and can think of two very good experienced people who got put in a coma when long-reining (horse ran backwards and gave them both barrels).
Just a quick response to those who are against the 'totally passive' approach - having thought further about it, I think I try to be passive (i.e. not confrontational/demanding, with that sort), but also very reassuring. If they are in a mental tizzy, it's about calming them down enough that they start THINKING again instead of just (over)reacting... call me a coward, but a 1/2 tonne flight animal in that frame of mind is not safe to be on or around...  

Oh, and as for smacking him with something for biting... Bravo. I'd do the same. They must NEVER think biting is acceptable. There has to be respect for the puny human, as TS puts it! They're allowed to scowl, or even snap teeth, swish tail, they're allowed to give me a warning so that I know they're unhappy and I can do something about it, but biting is a total no-no... and, bluntly, HE is not allowed to discipline YOU like that, as that's what it is in horse terms. 

BethH puts it perfectly: "the most important lesson I think is that there is always a reason for his behaviour and it is never based on human logic!"
Yes, hear hear. It's easy to get anthropomorphic. Horses do NOT reason the way humans do...  some of the justifications I hear for horse behaviour make me boggle.


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## Kokopelli (3 September 2012)

Definitely think I'll give long lining a miss I don't think it will end well.

Totaly agree though, you need to get the horse out of 'flight mode' before you can do anything with them, the passive riding through the rearing has worked an absolute treat so fingers crossed the broncing stops soon as well.


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## kerilli (3 September 2012)

what do you do when he broncs, out of interest?


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## Kokopelli (3 September 2012)

Hold onto the neck strap and wait for him to stop then carry on schooling. I try very hard not to catch him in the mouth but occasionally if I'm not quick enough to grab the neck strap I'll get his mouth which makes the situation much worse but that hasn't happened often.


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## kerilli (3 September 2012)

Ah, ok. What does he do if you pull his head up? Must admit I'm not brave enough to leave their head down when they're broncing, in case they really go for it... I give a pull to get their head up and then send them on, but if he overreacts horribly to a pull, fair enough.


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## racingdemon (3 September 2012)

i haven't read all the way through, but just wanted to echo the do nothing approach.... i have a mare atm, who when she first arrived would try anything to get you out of the saddle (rearing, bucking, whipping around you name it & she tried it) When she wasn't doing that she would plant herself & stick her head in a perfect rollkur style shape (despite me being sat there without holding the reins) but, she realised very very quickly that nothing she did got a reaction, i stayed in the plate, just sat quietly, and gradually she stopped being a challenge, one day i sat for 40minutes until she decided to walk on again! 

she's as sweet as a nut now, you still have to ask gently for new things, but she has so much more confidence in herself, she just hates being put under pressure she can't manage, but in giving her the confidence that whatever she does it's calm & quiet, she can accept new things & is loving her work..... the transformation is huge!!

slowly slowly catchy monkey!


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## Goldenstar (3 September 2012)

What happens when you lead him from another horse ?


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## Kokopelli (4 September 2012)

If you pull his head up he fly bucks and they're so hard to sit on. I give him quite a loose rein when he does it and he gets so confused and unbalanced he stops fairly quickly.

It doesn't make the slightest bit of difference if there is another horse but when we hack we go with someone else for safety reasons.


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## kerilli (4 September 2012)

So... You see a difference between 'broncing' & 'fly bucking'... ? Can you drive him through the bucking? I am never passive about bucking, I think it's more dangerous than rearing.


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## Kelpie (4 September 2012)

kerilli said:



			So... You see a difference between 'broncing' & 'fly bucking'... ? Can you drive him through the bucking? I am never passive about bucking, I think it's more dangerous than rearing.
		
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Not meaning to thread-jack but just curious about this as I have one (a youngster) whose not adverse to a bronk/ buck...... so far I've gone the passive route, as it's only happened in situations that have been a bit "high energy" for her (introducing canter work out hacking/ little tissy on her first hack out, etc).... so would you "never say never" about being passive?/ how situation specific do you see it, etc?  (btw, by passive here, I guess I don't mean do absolutely nothing - so ask the horse to do something else, be calm in yourself, etc - just not punish or put more energy into the situation....)


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## Goldenstar (4 September 2012)

kerilli said:



			So... You see a difference between 'broncing' & 'fly bucking'... ? Can you drive him through the bucking? I am never passive about bucking, I think it's more dangerous than rearing.
		
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I completely agree I would much rather take on a rearer than a bucker.


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## siennamum (4 September 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I completely agree I would much rather take on a rearer than a bucker.
		
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Me too. Strange how there is so much hostility to rearing really, people are forgiving of a high spirited buck I suppose. I'm not as it happens, a buck can really catch you out and get you fired off a shoulder. Mine is long in the back, loose in the back and really uses himself over a fence, he has always snaked his head when landing, which I reprimand him about (midly) also wouldn't ignore/indulge bucking.


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## wench (4 September 2012)

Different things work for different horses. My big TB, Henry was a real drama queen, and often prone to teddys coming out of the pram when we didnt get our own way, mainly when we didn't feel like doing any work. 

However, he did not rear or buck - probably as this would expend to much energy.

We went through a phase of having a tantrum in the school if something new had appeared in the corner (a new jump wing, or a pot of fake flowers that weren't there yesterday). He would wind himself up into a blind tizz... I'm not going anywhere near that scary pot of flowers its going to eat me etc... However if you gave him a smack with the whip it brought him back to his senses, and behaved normally.


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## kerilli (4 September 2012)

Kelpie said:



			Not meaning to thread-jack but just curious about this as I have one (a youngster) whose not adverse to a bronk/ buck...... so far I've gone the passive route, as it's only happened in situations that have been a bit "high energy" for her (introducing canter work out hacking/ little tissy on her first hack out, etc).... so would you "never say never" about being passive?/ how situation specific do you see it, etc?  (btw, by passive here, I guess I don't mean do absolutely nothing - so ask the horse to do something else, be calm in yourself, etc - just not punish or put more energy into the situation....)
		
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I think Koko and I may be using the same words for different things, that's what I wanted to check. I even asked some fb/HHO friends this morning to check what they mean by 'fly buck' and 'bronc', as I wasn't positive we were all on the same page!
Okay, my meanings and what I do.
'humping' - a really arched back, head down and overenthusiastic very big canter, not going forward enough (but NOT on the spot), usually high jinks only (NOT attempting to get you off, just feeling a bit too fresh), typical of a clipped horse on a cold windy day! I drive on and pull head up (usually only takes 1 pull) because it might turn into...
'broncing'  proper bucks, maybe on the spot (which makes them far harder to stay on), proper rodeo stylee, often involves twisting, really trying to get you off. Head is down, back arched (or vertical!), horse really going for it. 
This I always try to stop asap, pull head up sharply and then ride forwards. Or, if it was really really bad, halt, pat, get off, then check everything... has girth pinched or something? Check because I really don't want to have to stay on that again! Then either lunge briefly to ensure bucks have gone, or get back on and continue and hope they have.
'Fly bucks' are usually in a straight line in canter, just horse having fun 'kicking up his heels', not particularly unseating at all, unless you're very unlucky or insecure. 
There's also those little sulky stroppy little bunny hops behind, when you ask for canter, say, which I just ignore (but check saddle, back etc).
Give me a rearer (but not a flipper, obv) any day. no fan of buckers, have seen too many very very nasty falls. Seen a vid of a lady getting bucked off onto sleepers round manege and paralysed.


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## ihatework (4 September 2012)

And I think the moral of the story is that people have different definitions of what constitues a problematic buck / rear and that how you deal with it is completely dependant on the horse and the situation.

Two memorable rearing horses in the past for me ...

One an intermediate eventer, german bred, very nappy but athletic with it. Never bucked but would randomly plant and rear full height. That one was a passive horse. I'd face him the way I wanted to go and sit there until he gave up, memorably for approximately 20 minutes, clipped and mid winter in the pouring rain, until he was shivering uncontrollably and gave in ... that was the last time the bugger tried it on ironically.

Another that was less athletic but just naughty, and would be quicker to spin, and would do this as much as you would let happen. That one was actively chased and always gave up pretty quickly, the more you got after him the better he was to the point of then not having an issue.

To bucking horses ...

Last horse I owned rarely bucked, maybe a 2-3 times a year, but when he did it was a full on rodeo and I'd often fall. That one was a sock in the chops (and not half measures) the moment you felt him thinking about it, if you stopped it quickly you were fine. If you didn't get the warning you were on the floor.

Current horse, if feeling well, bucks loads! Squeaks, humps etc. Never unseated and on the whole just sit there and let him go forwards. Usually calling him some semi affecionate, semi- rude names! Will occasionally give him an 'oi' or a 'no' if he is overstepping the mark.


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## paddi22 (4 September 2012)

absolutely agree, people would be horrified when i'd ride my rearer, but i think it's safer than broncing,. The worst are those 'whiplash' style bucks that come out of nowhere.

Sounds like a very difficult horse with serious problems. If he was mine I'd cut all riding and restart him completely from scratch, somethings gone wrong down the line with his education somewhere. There's very few bad horses who just throw tantrums, he's communicating his unhappiness.


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## dafthoss (4 September 2012)

So glad I read other people prefer rearers as well was begginning to think I was alone, obviously not the blind panick over backwards type but those with self preservation I much prefer to a bucker. 

As for definitions of fly bucking etc, I call kicking out at the leg, normally only one sided fly bucks, bronching head between knees lifitng front then back and bucking when just the back end comes up. 

With mine I tend to ignore fly bucking as its normally when he is cross about being made to work any attempt to correct it normally results in full on strop where as you can coax him out of it and get him to do as you want if your quietly consistent, bucking is normally a high spirited thing so only told off for when it gets too much and bronching gets his head pulled up sharpish and sent forwards. Rearing is best dealt with by quietly making him face the object he doesnt want to go past/through until he gives in although have on others used the spin them method as it had scared its rider by going up and knew she would now back down if he threatened to go up so she had to know how to prevent the rear in the first place.


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## PrillyD (4 September 2012)

My 22 y.o tb x is a nightmare for tantrums- think she would be happiest just getting to gallop everywhere. She jogs, swings her arse to the left (we have 3ft ditches along our hacking route which she's put me in  3 times in the last year!!) she'll bunny hop and lock her neck. She spins and tries cantering sideways. On the ground however, she's the best behaved horse in the world. I think she has mental issues rather than physical as she's been checked over by physios, sadlers, vets, etc etc time and time again and some days when life is chilled, she wouldnt say boo to a goose. I've had her 13 years now and she is 10000000% better than she was as a 9 y.o. Still, gets me round a xc course quickly and she's in her element. Frustrating at times (quite often) but wouldn't change her for the world (except the ditch part)


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## kerilli (4 September 2012)

PrillyD, I have a tb mare who is the same. Although normally I absolutely abhor their use in 99% of cases, a very loose pair of draw reins somehow works a miracle on her brain. It is as if it makes mental tramlines and she relaxes within them, most odd. Stops the bum-swinging (dangerous towards ditches or cars!) and general hysteria. I only used them for hacking on her and they made her a lot safer to take out!


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## PrillyD (4 September 2012)

Interesting, thanks may just try that!!


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## giveitago (4 September 2012)

remember to assess the food intake too. mine improved immensly when we took out the sugars and cereals. 

24/7 turnout a must and some NH type ground manners will work wonders.

and a whole heap of patience!


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## Kokopelli (4 September 2012)

Not the best news, owner who hasn't seen him in a while has said there is definitely an improvement but she is really considering having him pts. I totally understand the reasoning behind this as he is 14.2 and no way would I let a kid get anywhere near him atm and she has said she can't gurantee she will be able to keep as a companion all his life and doesn't want him falling into wrong hands (i.e a kid getting on him and having a nasty fall.)

We have to spring to work it out so fingers crossed he continues improving. 

We're very careful what food he has, good turnout with not too rich grazing 24/7 and he has recently started having a magnesium based calmer as it has helped a little which makes me think he did have a slight magnesium deficiency.



kerilli said:



			I think Koko and I may be using the same words for different things, that's what I wanted to check. I even asked some fb/HHO friends this morning to check what they mean by 'fly buck' and 'bronc', as I wasn't positive we were all on the same page!
Okay, my meanings and what I do.
'humping' - a really arched back, head down and overenthusiastic very big canter, not going forward enough (but NOT on the spot), usually high jinks only (NOT attempting to get you off, just feeling a bit too fresh), typical of a clipped horse on a cold windy day! I drive on and pull head up (usually only takes 1 pull) because it might turn into...
'broncing'  proper bucks, maybe on the spot (which makes them far harder to stay on), proper rodeo stylee, often involves twisting, really trying to get you off. Head is down, back arched (or vertical!), horse really going for it. 
This I always try to stop asap, pull head up sharply and then ride forwards. Or, if it was really really bad, halt, pat, get off, then check everything... has girth pinched or something? Check because I really don't want to have to stay on that again! Then either lunge briefly to ensure bucks have gone, or get back on and continue and hope they have.
'Fly bucks' are usually in a straight line in canter, just horse having fun 'kicking up his heels', not particularly unseating at all, unless you're very unlucky or insecure. 
There's also those little sulky stroppy little bunny hops behind, when you ask for canter, say, which I just ignore (but check saddle, back etc).
Give me a rearer (but not a flipper, obv) any day. no fan of buckers, have seen too many very very nasty falls. Seen a vid of a lady getting bucked off onto sleepers round manege and paralysed.   

Click to expand...

Yeah think we may have diff definitions.

By broncing I mean head between the knees proper rodeo style round the school.

By fly bucking I mean he jumps in the air then does a huge buck mid air- not sure about the term for this.

I prefer buckers personally, I must be crazy! If this little guy didn't rear I would love him  maybe I should join the rodeo?


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## Kelpie (4 September 2012)

thanx for the clarificaiton, Kerilli.

Interesting, it's such a difficult topic - I wish sometimes they could just tell us what the problem is.... tho I do always think it must be because there is a problem....


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## paddi22 (5 September 2012)

i agree with the poster above. in 30 years i've never seen a horse that difficult without underlying physical problems (unless they have tumours etc). 

Most times if its not physical, it seems to be due to huge gaps in their education.

Otherwise its the correct mix of feed, turnout and exercise being met.  It's amazing when you see dangerous/nappy horses going to new homes and turning into saints, due to being ridden in different ways (more/less arena & schoolingwork/ more gallops/ constant hacking etc) 

It's fascinating trying to get into a horses psyche and see what situation it's happiest in!


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## siennamum (5 September 2012)

He sounds like a pony I rode when I was a child OP. This mare bucked me off 6 times in the first 20 mins I rode her. She had been through every yard in the county and knew she could get people off her back. In hindsight she was probably in pain, but this was 35 years ago and people didn't routinely make the checks they do now.
She became useful with us, won a lot jumping, (would always buck you off if you stopped paying attention) but was incorrigible and reverted to her naughtiness with new owners.

I think she was retired in the end, and she suprisingly produced super foals.


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## kerilli (5 September 2012)

Kokopelli said:



			Yeah think we may have diff definitions.

By broncing I mean head between the knees proper rodeo style round the school.

By fly bucking I mean he jumps in the air then does a huge buck mid air- not sure about the term for this.

I prefer buckers personally, I must be crazy! If this little guy didn't rear I would love him  maybe I should join the rodeo?
		
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Crikey.
I agree with the others. SOMETHING is making this horse react so extremely. The fact that nobody has found what it is yet, doesn't mean it isn't there.
I would be very careful about being someone else's free Crash Test Dummy, to be blunt. High jinks is one thing, we all know about those and cope with them fine for the most part, but this horse sounds as if he has a serious problem and is doing his best to tell you. 
Do you have any vids of him working (or not, as the case may be).
The thing is, although 'pts' sounds terrible initially, perhaps it is the best thing, rather than him falling into the wrong hands and possibly seriously hurting someone, and then going down in the world...


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## Kokopelli (5 September 2012)

We're all completely miffed about physical issues as pretty much everything has been checked apart from things like tumours but I had a horse with a brain tumour once and he really didn't behave like this. He was either catatonic or really aggressive. 

I can totally understand how pts could be a good option, I'd hate for him to fall into the wrong hands as would the owner. I think the owner and me are going to have to talk and thing long and hard whether it is worth or safe keeping him going.


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## nationaldressagepony (2 November 2015)

Have you checked his teeth and back? I have a 15.2hh 6yrs dressage horse (Affiliated Medium) who used to chuck his toys out of the pram on the lunge. He is an absolute angel to ride though. ;-0


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## milliepops (2 November 2015)

nationaldressagepony, I'm not sure why you keep pulling up old threads? This thread was started in 2012 so I doubt the OP is still having the same problem :/


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## SusieT (2 November 2015)

didnt realise old post


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## ellie_e (3 November 2015)

He sounds exactly like my 4yr old mare, I tried her on Coligone, within 5days of the liquid she was a different horse, has since been on the powder for 4/5 weeks, and not had any naughy behaviour since. It could be fluke, but im sticking with it. I cant believe a supplement could change a horse so much, she was awful on the ground, biting, swishing her tail etc, and to ride when you asked her to do something she didnt want she would stop dead and bronc, rear and have a tantrum.


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