# Buyer not collecting horse?!



## jay2bee (21 October 2021)

I’ve not come across this before, I have no idea what to do for the best?

Buyer came and tried a couple of horses I have for sale and then rang back the next day and agreed to buy one. They sent the full asking price the same day, and said they’d get back in touch with regards to vetting and collecting, great.
Didn’t hear anything for about five days but that included a weekend so wasn’t too concerned. Dropped her a message on the Tuesday, quick “hi, did you manage to get in touch with the vet, when can they come out”. She didn’t reply for two days. So I called and left the same message on voicemail.
Got a reply on the Friday along the lines of so sorry for delay/had covid/vet coming out Wednesday. Ok, great.(this was last week).
Messaged her on the Tuesday to ask which vets to expect and what time, was she going to be attending?
No reply. No answer to calls. Wednesday - no vets turned up. Since then I have had nothing. I have money sat in my account for this horse which I need to use, but now I don’t want to in case I have to give it all back! How long do I try and get in touch?! I have messaged and called every day since Wednesday last week, so over a week now. I don’t know what to do!


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## EmmaC78 (21 October 2021)

If it were me I would message and say they have til Saturday to confirm arrangements and if you don't hear you'll assume they no longer want the horse and will re-advertise.


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## bluehorse (21 October 2021)

Put something in writing via email/recorded delivery letter telling her the horse is now her property and she is responsible for insurance including 3rd party, and liable for ongoing livery/farriery costs and all vets bills should the need arise, until she comes to collect it. Or refund the money and put the horse back up for sale. Not ideal but might be less hassle!


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## jay2bee (21 October 2021)

I don’t have her address 🤦🏻‍♀️ I could call the bank and see if they can give me any details


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## mini_b (21 October 2021)

I’d put something in writing and say if not collected by (date) horse will be readvertised and you will be refunded. 
I’d go for the least hassle option - if you refund and hear nowt that is the VERY DEFINITION of a time waster.

You hear that term bandied around a bit but that for sure is it.

I know sh*t happens in life but surely they can find you 5 minutes in the day to let you know what’s happening, not sure I’d want my horse going to someone like that.


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## Sossigpoker (21 October 2021)

If she really has covid , could she be really unwell? People do actually die from it!
Is there any way to find out if she's actually in any state to communicate?
Have you tried calling ?


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## bluehorse (21 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			I don’t have her address 🤦🏻‍♀️ I could call the bank and see if they can give me any details
		
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Your bank won’t pass on her details due to data privacy, but I think you can ask them to reverse the transaction. If you only have her phone number ring her repeatedly and leave voicemails. Also text. You would need to have evidence of trying to contact her if this situation resulted in a dispute. There may not be a dispute, she may just be a rubbish communicator but as it stands at the moment you have to protect yourself if things go wrong.


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## PaulineW (21 October 2021)

As you have her money, I doubt she is time wasting. More likely to be ill, and possibly no one knows to let you know / other priorities. I’d be inclined to put the money aside, and if no update by the weekend, readvertise. Refund when she makes contact.


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## PaulineW (21 October 2021)

Just a thought also, if she is very ill she may not have her phone, or it’s flat.


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## bluehorse (21 October 2021)

PaulineW said:



			As you have her money, I doubt she is time wasting. More likely to be ill, and possibly no one knows to let you know / other priorities. I’d be inclined to put the money aside, and if no update by the weekend, readvertise. Refund when she makes contact.
		
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i agree but the problem for me is liability. If the horse broke its leg in the field the buyer could reasonably think they were entitled to a refund, leaving the seller with no sale and no horse. In my one good experience of buying from a dealer I had to arrange collection pretty damn quick and not at my convenience. I get the urgency, once sold they should off the sellers property.


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## PaulineW (21 October 2021)

I understand, but the horse could still be on sellers insurance till removed from the property and insurance terminated? Why did they pay in full before a vetting??
I think there has to be something going on, like illness, as they’ve paid in full. Too much to just walk away, unlike a deposit.


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## Old school (21 October 2021)

Maybe the buyer is on the thread below.......has yet to tell the OH. Hopefully it will all get resolved ASAP for you.


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## bluehorse (21 October 2021)

PaulineW said:



			I understand, but the horse could still be on sellers insurance till removed from the property and insurance terminated? Why did they pay in full before a vetting??
I think there has to be something going on, like illness, as they’ve paid in full. Too much to just walk away, unlike a deposit.
		
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Yes definitely odd the seller paid in full before a vetting, maybe just clueless. However why should the seller have the hassle of dealing with an accident, then potentially unable to transport plus care/livery and an insurance claim just because the buyer didn’t collect?


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## GreyDot (21 October 2021)

Quite possibly very ill.   But really unusual to have transferred the entire amount prior to vetting!  Hope you get it resolved soon.


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## ihatework (21 October 2021)

bluehorse said:



			i agree but the problem for me is liability. If the horse broke its leg in the field the buyer could reasonably think they were entitled to a refund, leaving the seller with no sale and no horse. In my one good experience of buying from a dealer I had to arrange collection pretty damn quick and not at my convenience. I get the urgency, once sold they should off the sellers property.
		
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Did you not write a receipt of sale etc?
Last horse I sold they couldn’t collect for a fortnight. As soon as the money was transferred I indicated they were owners and liable for all future costs. I gave free livery for 14 days and thereafter indicated I’d charge £25/day


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## bluehorse (21 October 2021)

ihatework said:



			Did you not write a receipt of sale etc?
Did you not get a receipt of sale etc?
Last horse I sold they couldn’t collect for a fortnight. As soon as the money was transferred I indicated they were owners and liable for all future costs. I gave free livery for 14 days and thereafter indicated I’d charge £25/day
		
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Yes I did get a receipt, however I wasn’t given an option of livery for a couple of weeks, this was a pro dealer who wanted stables emptied once the horse was sold. I don’t  blame him, i had to arrange transport hire as my lorry was in for respraying, not a big deal but not the most convenient. I don’t think we disagree, liability is the issue in my mind, free livery is neither here nor there if the seller doesn’t mind. The OP needs to make the buyer aware that liability for all costs is theirs one way or another.


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## ihatework (21 October 2021)

Sorry, got confused thought you were OP!


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## SO1 (21 October 2021)

If she had Covid could she be really unwell or worse than that she could have died, perhaps one of her family now has Covid and needs caring for or is even in hospital.

What is the agreement if the horse fails the vetting will you have to return the money? 

Maybe try and leave another message and ask them if everything is ok.


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## Jellymoon (21 October 2021)

Gosh, what a bizarre situation, to have got the money in full…and then nothing.
I think I would send a message saying if they don’t collect the horse by a certain date you will have to refund in full and re-advertise horse.
This is fair to both sides I think.


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## honetpot (22 October 2021)

I wouldn't refund the money, I would send a message that the horse is now hers, and she is now liable for any livery bills, insurance and vet bills, and if it's not collected by X date you will issue an abandonment notice, which means you can dispose of it. 
https://www.liverylist.co.uk/hub/jump-to-abandonment-guidance/
If she changes her mind, and decides to collect, if it gets ill or injured you will be out of pocket. If you resell it you will cost time and money. I would create a 'paper trail' so if things do get nasty you have evidence of your attempts to contact her.
 I never take deposits, it's cash/transfer on collection, that way it's clear who is responsible/paying for what.


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## fawaz (22 October 2021)

I would be inclined to think something has happened to the purchaser or their phone.

This does not help your situation at all.

You do need to make attempts to contact and let them know in writing (test, email or post) you are not liable for the horse and any costs she may be incurring since the sale and she is not sold 'subject to a vetting'... but sold with possession having taken place on the date you received funds and needs to be removed by (insert date).

Can you not hunt her down on social media or google? Put out a call out on forums for anyone who way know so and so from so and so?


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## poiuytrewq (22 October 2021)

This has happened before, there was a huge thread on here, possibly ages ago but I do remember following it. 
So weird! 
As above even if you don’t have an address I’d send an email or text, both of which you’ll have a trail of stating horse must be collected by x date or you will refund. I’m not sure but you could also request livery paid for the extra time your having to pay it?


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## HBB (22 October 2021)

poiuytrewq said:



			This has happened before, there was a huge thread on here, possibly ages ago but I do remember following it.
		
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I thought that too, I remember reading the thread.


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## Midlifecrisis (22 October 2021)

Money laundering????


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## Reacher (22 October 2021)

HBB said:



			I thought that too, I remember reading the thread.
		
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Me too - can’t remember whether / how  the situation got resolved


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## HBB (22 October 2021)

Found it!

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/horse-sold-and-not-collected.783075/


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## Trouper (22 October 2021)

For the sake of the poor horse I would back out of this now.  If the buyer is so ill they cannot pick up a phone or find a way of contacting you, then they are not in a fit state to take on a horse. If they just don't care (or are money laundering!!) then in my book the same applies.

By now I would be so worried about the horse's future that I would back out today and refund.


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## ycbm (22 October 2021)

I would refund the money minus an amount for livery until the horse is resold  and put him back up for sale.  If you are asked to refund with some story about being terribly ill,  do it to the same account as it came out of,  you don't want to get caught in a money laundering scam.
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## ycbm (22 October 2021)

Dupe


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## JackFrost (22 October 2021)

ATM you have the chance to reverse this transaction and get out of it. The 'contract' for whatever reason has not been fulfilled.
I would send another text/message and say you consider the sale as cancelled, and refund the money.  Personally I wouldn't complicate it by withholding any of it, just do  a straight cancellation so you have an end to the matter.

I think there are others on the forum with expertise in contract law, but if you withhold money or charge for livery etc, it implies you consider the money is yours and the horse hers, so I would keep it very simple and just back out. Th contract, verbal or otherwise, was for her to pay and you to give the horse in return, this has not happened and the contract is not complete.


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## Antw23uk (22 October 2021)

You need to reverse the funds immediately and message her to say you have done so. Leave the message open to say if she is still keen, to contact you to reorganise but for now the money is back in her account and the horse is back on the market.

*You are asking for trouble keeping hold of this money! REFUND HER IN FULL.*


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## Jellymoon (22 October 2021)

Antw23uk said:



			You need to reverse the funds immediately and message her to say you have done so. Leave the message open to say if she is still keen, to contact you to reorganise but for now the money is back in her account and the horse is back on the market.

*You are asking for trouble keeping hold of this money! REFUND HER IN FULL.*

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This completely. You cannot hang on to the money, could land you in a load of trouble. And I would refund in full, I wouldn’t take money off for livery, if she’s ill or died, that would be mean. Just end the deal, and start again.


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## Parrotperson (22 October 2021)

if you're a BHS gold member ring their legal line. it may be useful to know the legal side of things before proceeding.


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## Renvers (22 October 2021)

Did you have other interested in the horse, if refunded could you sell it easily to another buyer? 

After all whilst she may have paid you for it you are still incurring costs for keeping it for her and if she has paid but not taken delivery are you liable for any vets fees if anything happens? 

Agree about ringing BHS line or getting some legal advice from a specialist in this area.


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## southerncomfort (22 October 2021)

I wonder if the purchaser is struggling to find a yard.

She might be thinking that OP is happy as she has the money and it hasn't occurred to her that she owns the horse now and OP is paying services for a horse she doesn't own.

Personally I'd refund the money, as others have said, it's a very dodgy situation.


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## Toby_Zaphod (22 October 2021)

The remedy is in your hands. The buyer has purchased your horse has paid & has not come to collect it. Send a registered letter (keeping a copy of every letter) telling them. tell them that on ? date they paid £? for the animal & the animal is theirs from that date. Give them a date to collect the animal by & also inform them that from the time the horse was purchased the animal is theirs & they will need to pay £? to cover livery costs since the date of purchase. Livery bills can be quite expensive specially when you are on a yard & you are not the owner of the yard. You should also mention any feed & hay you have fed the animal plus wormers, vet bills in face any cost you have incurred. Hopefully the letter may jar them to accept their responsibility & collect the horse. If this doesn't work then seek legal advice. Good Luck.


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## ycbm (22 October 2021)

I don't think the horse is sold until it passes a vet.  This is just a100% deposit to hold while the vet was arranged.  The agreement seems to have been return of the money if it failed the vet, so the horse is probably not yet sold. 
.


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## jay2bee (22 October 2021)

Sorry, vetting is the wrong word really, the vet was coming out to do strangles testing and vaccinations prior to moving yards. She was happy to buy without vetting as I showed her my vetting I had done (only a 2* but was an OTTB) about 6 months ago, and trotted horse up and lunged at viewing. She was knowledgeable and also had an experienced friend with her, perfect buyer really. 

I am concerned she is ill, yes, I'm currently trying to do some investigative work on facebook to track her down.


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## ycbm (22 October 2021)

Well I think she owns him then.  What a pickle that leaves you in. 
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## jay2bee (22 October 2021)

I am going to send a message and leave a voicemail tonight, to say if I don't hear by Sunday I will be refunding the money on Monday and re-advertising.


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## jay2bee (22 October 2021)

This is just a disaster. I'm so stressed I'm getting caught up in some kind of scam or legal trouble here. I'm going to have to call an equine solicitor I think and probably be charged a fortune.


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## TPO (22 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			This is just a disaster. I'm so stressed I'm getting caught up in some kind of scam or legal trouble here. I'm going to have to call an equine solicitor I think and probably be charged a fortune. 

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Join bhs gold (£7 per month and you can cancel anything I *think*). They have a free legal advice helpline for gold members


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## GrassChop (22 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			This is just a disaster. I'm so stressed I'm getting caught up in some kind of scam or legal trouble here. I'm going to have to call an equine solicitor I think and probably be charged a fortune. 

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Wouldn't it be easier to refund and start again?


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## Pearlsasinger (22 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			This is just a disaster. I'm so stressed I'm getting caught up in some kind of scam or legal trouble here. I'm going to have to call an equine solicitor I think and probably be charged a fortune. 

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Look at this logically!  You have done nothing wrong, youadvertised a horse, accepted payment for it and agreed to keep the horse until the purchaser could arrange for her vet to come to your yard.    Then you got a message that purchaser had Covid but haven't heard from her since.  Is there anything in there that you have done that could possibly be considered illegal?  No ,of course not.It can hardly be money laundering the purchaser  has got nothing for her money so far.  I can definitely reccommend BHS legal helpline and in your position I would ring them.


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## Ossy2 (22 October 2021)

Is there any receipt or contract of sale for the horse? Is any of the arrangements been written down, if not maybe something to think about putting in place in the future.  I also would think she could be pretty ill based on what she was like at the the viewing. 

Legally, depending if documentation you have, you maybe able to keep money and issue an abandonment notice to reclaim the horse as yours. Morally and reputationally it is probably better to Give a deadline and just refund in full. I also wouldn’t be worried I’d done anything illegal either.


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## Hanno Verian (22 October 2021)

I dont think you can refund the money and readvertise, she has paid you *the horse is her property*, the issue is that she hasnt removed the horse from your property, which is a different matter.
I would be trying everything to contact her and telling her that you will be charging her £XX per day and that if you co dont hear from her by X days you will issue a notice of abandonment. Try googling her name, her email address or phone number or use one of the 192 people finder sites, you can legitimately bill her for your time and any costs, out of interest how much was the purchase price hundreds or thousands??

Sorry only just seen the post above!!!


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## Hanno Verian (22 October 2021)

Get proper legal advice otherwise you could end up in a world of pain and trouble


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## Hepsibah (22 October 2021)

I would consider the horse to be abandoned. It has been paid for in full so no longer belongs to you but you have been left with a duty of care to the animal. Tell the new owner they do not have your permission to keep the horse there then go through the procedure outlined here. You will not need to refund the new owner.


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## WelshD (22 October 2021)

Try messaging on WhatsApp - at least there you can see if and when you message was read. It will give you an idea of whether they are ignoring you or genuinely can’t get to their phone


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## jay2bee (22 October 2021)

I received a text message saying it was the lady's friend. She is unwell and needs me to keep the horse a few weeks and then will get in touch. I've asked if she is in hospital, no just can't 'cope' with contact with anyone right now? So what that means I don't know? I've asked the friend to call me at her earliest opportunity, but today!, as I need to talk about this and get something a bit firmer. Am I being unreasonable here, or unsympathetic?!


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## TPO (22 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			I received a text message saying it was the lady's friend. She is unwell and needs me to keep the horse a few weeks and then will get in touch. I've asked if she is in hospital, no just can't 'cope' with contact with anyone right now? So what that means I don't know? I've asked the friend to call me at her earliest opportunity, but today!, as I need to talk about this and get something a bit firmer. Am I being unreasonable here, or unsympathetic?!
		
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So you've just to keep, feed and care for a horse that someone else owns? As has been said what happens if the horse has an accident or occurs a vet bill whilst in "your care".

Personally, and no idea of legalities, I'd be phoning the friend until they answered and saying collect the horse now or money is being refunded and he's going back on the market.

You're out of pocket either way as you have to keep him for the foreseeable. 

Honestly I don't think I'd want a horse going to someone who behaved in this way. What happens when she next "can't cope", is the horse just abandoned at the yard?


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## ihatework (22 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			I received a text message saying it was the lady's friend. She is unwell and needs me to keep the horse a few weeks and then will get in touch. I've asked if she is in hospital, no just can't 'cope' with contact with anyone right now? So what that means I don't know? I've asked the friend to call me at her earliest opportunity, but today!, as I need to talk about this and get something a bit firmer. Am I being unreasonable here, or unsympathetic?!
		
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Difficult!
I’d give the benefit of the doubt for now (whilst remaining quietly suspicious). 
You do need to speak to the ‘friend’ and try and get a gut feel for what is really going on.
If it’s sounding genuine then I’d probably offer to make arrangements to drop their horse off at the full livery yard of their choice.
Otherwise I’d float the idea of selling the horse on their behalf and retaining any expenses refunding the difference.
See how that goes down, if not we’ll speak to BHS and consider just cancelling the sale.


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## JackFrost (22 October 2021)

Agree this is very vague. I was once in a position of being badly injured, but not kept in hospital, and at that time absolutely could not cope with anything beyond basic functioning, - when you are really ill you cannot, so may well be genuine.  
 I would ask the friend for more info. 
If I was in your shoes??? - i would try to be sympathetic, but set a clear arrangement such as  'I will keep horse here till end of the month for you to complete on the sale and remove horse. If I have not heard from you or we have no acceptable arrangement by then, I will deem the sale as aborted and refund on 1 Nov'. Put it in text or writing.
Life can and does go wrong sometimes, I would not be too suspicious. You have the money.


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## ycbm (22 October 2021)

What an unholy mess! 



TPO said:



			Personally, and no idea of legalities, I'd be phoning the friend until they answered and saying collect the horse now or money is being refunded and he's going back on the market.
		
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Completely agree with this and use a phone with a number that won't be recognised if you don't get an answer.  
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## WelshD (22 October 2021)

If they don't get in touch today I think I would send another message saying 'if I know more about your circumstances and intentions I am prepared to come to some sort of arrangement but without that I can only assume that you aren't in a position to have the horse and will continue advertising him/her for now, if they sell before you are able to collect I will refund your money but I cannot have a horse on free livery indefinitely'


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## Mari (22 October 2021)

If she has paid in full for the horse you could charge her Livery for the time she has left the horse.  If you’re a member of BHS ask them for advice.


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## Hanno Verian (22 October 2021)

Please, please get proper legal advice.... Do not just pick the advice that is most convenient for you from the varying menu people have offered. You need to be certain that what you do is legal otherwise you could arguably find yourself charged with theft if you sell a horse that is someone else's property. You cant just nulify a sale because you feel like it and like it or not you offered the horse for sale, the purchaser paid the full price therefore the horse belongs to them.

Yes they should have moved the horse by now, but unless that was specified in the contract of sale, it is a sperate matter.


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## I'm Dun (22 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			What an unholy mess!



Completely agree with this and use a phone with a number that won't be recognised if you don't get an answer. 
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Thats just a waste of time. If I was avoiding someone there is no way in hell I would answer a number I dont know. I fact, I'm not avoiding anyone and wouldnt answer a number I dont know.


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## nutjob (22 October 2021)

I would ask the 'friend' to give you the persons address.  You will need it if you want to send any kind of formal / legal letter.  It will also tell you a lot if it cannot be supplied.  They seem to be asking you to look after their horse without offering any payment for this or signing any contract so you at least have a right to know who they are.


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## jay2bee (22 October 2021)

Waiting for the phone call from the friend. Planning to just listen to the situation and say I will think about it then get back to them.


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## AFishOutOfWater (22 October 2021)

Really hope you can get it sorted, what a horrible situation to be in!


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## Trouper (22 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			I received a text message saying it was the lady's friend. She is unwell and needs me to keep the horse a few weeks and then will get in touch. I've asked if she is in hospital, no just can't 'cope' with contact with anyone right now? So what that means I don't know? I've asked the friend to call me at her earliest opportunity, but today!, as I need to talk about this and get something a bit firmer. Am I being unreasonable here, or unsympathetic?!
		
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I'm sorry but I think this is ridiculous.  If she is well enough to ask a friend to contact you, she is well enough to speak to you herself - even if briefly - to explain the situation and ask for your help.   Whether we are facing a health, emotional or a family crisis, some aspects of life just have to go on (but, then, may be I am old school).
I remain concerned for any horse being placed in this situation.  If it can be resolved in a few weeks, then by all means keep the horse for her  - but I would need a lot of convincing.


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## Renvers (22 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			Waiting for the phone call from the friend. Planning to just listen to the situation and say I will think about it then get back to them.
		
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Hope you can get a quick resolution. It is one thing to sympathise with ill health but what costs are they willing to meet for the upkeep of the horse during that time?


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## honetpot (22 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			I received a text message saying it was the lady's friend. She is unwell and needs me to keep the horse a few weeks and then will get in touch. I've asked if she is in hospital, no just can't 'cope' with contact with anyone right now? So what that means I don't know? I've asked the friend to call me at her earliest opportunity, but today!, as I need to talk about this and get something a bit firmer. Am I being unreasonable here, or unsympathetic?!
		
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 Serve the abandonment notice, no money has been mentioned. Call me a cynic, but no contact, no money, and a few weeks will be until after Christmas if you are not careful, because people start looking for full livery for the Christmas holiday, or she has a buyer lined up.
  My step father once boarded some ponies, they paid a month' money livery, and he never saw them a gain until spring, when they came they distracted him in the house, loaded them up and never paid. Unfortunately I have had the same done to me by someone who I thought I had checked out, it all sounds very plausible, you feel sorry for them, they have problems,blah,blah. I ended up with a lot of stress, the ponies were still in my care, and almost £600 out of pocket.
  If she wanted to void the sale, I would deduct costs from any money returned.


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## GrassChop (22 October 2021)

I do find it extremely concerning that if her health/mental health is so bad she can't even send a text, what does this mean for the horse's care? Will it be the same?
Buying a horse should be really exciting and most people wouldn't be able wait to bring it home. I find this whole situation very weird. I wonder if perhaps there is a mental disorder going on instead. I only wonder this as my friend's sister with Aspergers and OCD I feel could do something like this on a whim for a new hobby, pay and then lose interest whilst not understanding the implications for everyone involved.


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## paddy555 (22 October 2021)

honetpot said:



			Serve the abandonment notice, no money has been mentioned. Call me a cynic, but no contact, no money, and a few weeks will be until after Christmas if you are not careful, because people start looking for full livery for the Christmas holiday, or she has a buyer lined up.
  My step father once boarded some ponies, they paid a month' money livery, and he never saw them a gain until spring, when they came they distracted him in the house, loaded them up and never paid. Unfortunately I have had the same done to me by someone who I thought I had checked out, it all sounds very plausible, you feel sorry for them, they have problems,blah,blah. I ended up with a lot of stress, the ponies were still in my care, and almost £600 out of pocket.
  If she wanted to void the sale, I would deduct costs from any money returned.
		
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I would call a halt to it now. You could be stuck in this position for months paying for and looking after her horse. 
I would advise them to either collect it within 7 days or you will refund their money now and void the sale. Their choice. If they don't collect it I would check with a solicitor what you can do. You may have legal cover on your house ins,, or horse ins or BHS cover. If you join the BHS now can you access their legal helpline fairly soon?


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## jay2bee (22 October 2021)

She never called, so I have left a voicemail for the “owner” to say I’ll be returning the money on Monday and re-advertising.


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## Sossigpoker (22 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			She never called, so I have left a voicemail for the “owner” to say I’ll be returning the money on Monday and re-advertising.
		
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Out of concern for the horse I'd be doing the same. If she can't deal with life , can she deal with looking after a horse?


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## Patterdale (23 October 2021)

This is bizarre!
What a stressful situation for you OP, hope it gets resolved soon.


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## ycbm (23 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			She never called, so I have left a voicemail for the “owner” to say I’ll be returning the money on Monday and re-advertising.
		
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Good move.  I would readvertise now so that you have viewers lined up as soon as you have returned the money.  

I doubt if this is strictly legal,  because she is the owner.  But the likelihood of her suing you (for what loss?) is minimal and I'm absolutely sure that the police will have no interest at all in the "theft" of a horse where possession was never taken and the purchase price refunded a few days after it was received. 

Fwiw, it's what I would do.  
.


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## Winters100 (23 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			She never called, so I have left a voicemail for the “owner” to say I’ll be returning the money on Monday and re-advertising.
		
Click to expand...

IMO this is exactly the right thing to do. The right thing for the horse, because she does not sound as if she will be able to manage caring for him. I also think it is the right thing for you, since if the sale was subject to the vetting presumably she can anyway pull out and demand her money back or a large discount by citing some minor fault.

Good luck with it and I hope that you solve everything soon.


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## ycbm (23 October 2021)

Sale wasn't subject to vetting,  W, that was updated later in the thread. 
.


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## Trouper (23 October 2021)

Well done - hope you find a good buyer who will appreciate the horse.


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## Winters100 (23 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			Sale wasn't subject to vetting,  W, that was updated later in the thread.
.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks.

What a strange situation in this case.  But really I think that OP has no option but to return the money.  A text from a friend saying that the buyer is unable to cope is not enough to justify keeping the horse for weeks with no costs being covered.  And since the horse is an OTTB I am guessing that the purchase price was not huge, so keeping the horse for free for 2 or 3 months is eating into that.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (23 October 2021)

Trouper said:



			For the sake of the poor horse I would back out of this now.  If the buyer is so ill they cannot pick up a phone or find a way of contacting you, then they are not in a fit state to take on a horse. If they just don't care (or are money laundering!!) then in my book the same applies.

By now I would be so worried about the horse's future that I would back out today and refund.
		
Click to expand...

what a load of tosh. I had covid and I’ll tell you I was very ill for many days and I’m still feeling the effects of it and I have a horse. He was looked after by my family and friends.

Many people have chronic illnesses and people have had and fought cancer and sometimes their horse is their only reason for going on, getting up in the morning or leaving the house.

Don’t be so callous


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## Roasted Chestnuts (23 October 2021)

Op you are doing the right thing refunding and read errors if. No one really loses from that, yes it’s a hassle for you but I’m sure you will have other buyers soon. It’s a sellers market for horses at the moment


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## Trouper (23 October 2021)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			what a load of tosh. I had covid and I’ll tell you I was very ill for many days and I’m still feeling the effects of it and I have a horse. He was looked after by my family and friends.

Many people have chronic illnesses and people have had and fought cancer and sometimes their horse is their only reason for going on, getting up in the morning or leaving the house.

Don’t be so callous
		
Click to expand...

I think you may have misunderstood the point of my comment.  I was not implying that the buyer may not - ultimately - be a suitable owner but, in this day and age, communication is a very simple thing and the total lack of it from the buyer is concerning on several levels.   At the very least, it is poor manners.

I also think you have made my point for me - despite being so ill yourself, you obviously took great care to ensure that your animals were looked after by others and I am sure you kept good communication going between you all.  The excitement of acquiring a new horse would also have had me off my sick-bed to at least have a conversation with the buyer about what was happening.  In the absence of that communication, we can only be judged on our actions.

I do hope you are well on the way now to a full recovery from this dreadful virus.


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## Northern Hare (23 October 2021)

Just a thought, but is there any chance that this is some sort of convoluted money laundering scam, that is forcing you into transferring money back into the account it supposedly came from, but that could then put you in a tricky position with the bank? Perhaps the money has come from an account that is under suspicion or monitoring?

The reason I say this is that I was selling something on eBay (around £1k), and I somehow very nearly got scammed, and it was in such a complex way that I couldn't really believe it when eBay explained it to me. Fortunately something made me suspicious so I contacted eBay and they sorted it all out and I didn't lose anything, but it could have worked out badly for me.

So just to be safe, it might be worth the OP speaking to the buyer's bank before transferring the money back to the originating account, just to check there's no potential pitfalls?


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## WelshD (23 October 2021)

If my friend was ill and in the same situation I would be on to the seller begging them to bear with me and keeping them informed. Not trying to dodge the seller.


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## AFishOutOfWater (23 October 2021)

Northern Hare said:



			Just a thought, but is there any chance that this is some sort of convoluted money laundering scam, that is forcing you into transferring money back into the account it supposedly came from, but that could then put you in a tricky position with the bank? Perhaps the money has come from an account that is under suspicion or monitoring?

The reason I say this is that I was selling something on eBay (around £1k), and I somehow very nearly got scammed, and it was in such a complex way that I couldn't really believe it when eBay explained it to me. Fortunately something made me suspicious so I contacted eBay and they sorted it all out and I didn't lose anything, but it could have worked out badly for me.

So just to be safe, it might be worth the OP speaking to the buyer's bank before transferring the money back to the originating account, just to check there's no potential pitfalls?
		
Click to expand...

How on earth would that work? Aware I'm probably being VERY stupid, but I just can't really fathom it?


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## pistolpete (23 October 2021)

No idea what’s going on but agree you’re best off refunding if a good sensible solution including covering livery costs can’t be reached. Feel for you.


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## nutjob (23 October 2021)

Northern Hare said:



			Just a thought, but is there any chance that this is some sort of convoluted money laundering scam, that is forcing you into transferring money back into the account it supposedly came from, but that could then put you in a tricky position with the bank? Perhaps the money has come from an account that is under suspicion or monitoring?

The reason I say this is that I was selling something on eBay (around £1k), and I somehow very nearly got scammed, and it was in such a complex way that I couldn't really believe it when eBay explained it to me. Fortunately something made me suspicious so I contacted eBay and they sorted it all out and I didn't lose anything, but it could have worked out badly for me.

So just to be safe, it might be worth the OP speaking to the buyer's bank before transferring the money back to the originating account, just to check there's no potential pitfalls?
		
Click to expand...

This.  Except you need to get your bank to talk to the buyers bank as their bank won't talk to you.  You would be surprised how sophisticated scams are these days.  I tried to do a bank charge back after a dodgy dealer sold a horse I put a deposit on to someone else only to find their account was specifically set up for scamming people.  That account is now frozen as the bank recognised it was being used for scamming.  It's now in small claims, trading standards and action fraud, but I doubt I will get any money back.  How likely is it that someone was fit and well enough to buy a horse then days later become so ill that they cannot communicate at all and have no friends or family members who can talk on the phone, by email or text?


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## tda (23 October 2021)

Does sound like some kind of scam, maybe the 'buyer' has advertised it elsewhere at a higher price and will finally collect it when she's sold it!


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## jay2bee (23 October 2021)

Had a call today from the 'owner' - she was dreadfully apologetic and says she was really not herself for a week being ill with covid. She says she will collect him tomorrow morning! So, all of that drama over nothing, sorry guys!! Thanks for the help though


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## jay2bee (23 October 2021)

Although as I wrote that my partner read over my shoulder and said "providing she turns up, of course"


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## exracehorse (23 October 2021)

Snail said:



			How on earth would that work? Aware I'm probably being VERY stupid, but I just can't really fathom it?
		
Click to expand...

 I’m
Not sure either. I thought it was cash that you money laundered. But I guess we are both stupid 😀


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## nagblagger (23 October 2021)

Hi, my first time on writing - been a secret stalker.! But slightly concerned that if she has had covid less than 10 days ago she is still potentially infectious! Be careful.


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## teddy_eq (23 October 2021)

exracehorse said:



			I’m
Not sure either. I thought it was cash that you money laundered. But I guess we are both stupid 😀
		
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Laundered 'cash' can very easily end up in a bank account unfortunately.


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## GreyDot (23 October 2021)

nagblagger said:



			Hi, my first time on writing - been a secret stalker.! But slightly concerned that if she has had covid less than 10 days ago she is still potentially infectious! Be careful.
		
Click to expand...

Good point!  Plus, if she had just been to view the horse and then came down with it, why weren't you notified as a close contact? Hope she turns up and collects the horse, but I would definitely be keeping my distance.


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## jay2bee (23 October 2021)

Is close contacts even still a thing? I've had covid before and two vaccinations, I've more chance of catching the flu from her lol. Plus we will be outside in a yard, I'm not worried.


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## Amymay (23 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			Is close contacts even still a thing? I've had covid before and two vaccinations, I've more chance of catching the flu from her lol. Plus we will be outside in a yard, I'm not worried.
		
Click to expand...

Good luck tomorrow. Please give her a bill of sale, and make sure you have her full details.


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## ycbm (23 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			Had a call today from the 'owner' - she was dreadfully apologetic and says she was really not herself for a week being ill with covid. She says she will collect him tomorrow morning! So, all of that drama over nothing, sorry guys!! Thanks for the help though
		
Click to expand...


I won't hold my breath,  but I will have my fingers crossed! 
.


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## Lois Lame (23 October 2021)

I love these mysterious threads, though it's very hard on the OPs. Good luck for tomorrow morning.


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## Winters100 (23 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			Had a call today from the 'owner' - she was dreadfully apologetic and says she was really not herself for a week being ill with covid. She says she will collect him tomorrow morning! So, all of that drama over nothing, sorry guys!! Thanks for the help though
		
Click to expand...

How very strange that the friend who sent a text saying that the buyer could just not cope with speaking to you did not pass on this information.   If I was in this situation I would be asking my friend 'please tell the seller that I have covid and ask if they can kindly keep the horse for a couple or weeks' not 'please tell the seller that I cannot cope with speaking to them'.  Sorry to say it makes me wonder if she is being truthful.  If you had received a message that the buyer was suffering from covid, very unwell but not in hospital, then I am quite sure that you would have been happy to agree to keep the horse for her for a couple of weeks.

Good luck for tomorrow and let us know how you get on.


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## AandK (24 October 2021)

How very strange. Not sure I’d want to sell a horse to someone like that…


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## PictusSweetDreams (24 October 2021)

AandK said:



			How very strange. Not sure I’d want to see a horse to someone like that…
		
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i was just thinking the same.

has she collected yet OP?


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## Apercrumbie (24 October 2021)

It does seem strange, but I wonder if perhaps her friend didn't manage the situation well enough and that has caused greater confusion. I can say that when I had covid, I was not well enough to even text someone who wasn't immediate family, so I can see why there was a period of radio silence followed by someone else trying to sort out a situation that they don't fully understand. Provided the horse is collected today, I'd give her the benefit of the doubt. Fingers crossed for you OP!


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## SatansLittleHelper (24 October 2021)

Hope everything has gone OK today..???


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## Amymay (24 October 2021)

I think we’re all on tenderhooks 🤔


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## ycbm (24 October 2021)

Amymay said:



			I think we’re all on tenderhooks 🤔
		
Click to expand...

Not me! Mine are tenterhooks 🙃🤣

Got no nails left though.  
.


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## PeterNatt (24 October 2021)

I find it very strange that the seller did not obtain all the contact details for the purchaser ether before or at the point of agreeing the sale.


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## Equi (24 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			Not me! Mine are tenterhooks 🙃🤣

Got no nails left though.
.
		
Click to expand...

Mind blown. I was today years old when I learned….


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## ester (24 October 2021)

PeterNatt said:



			I find it very strange that the seller did not obtain all the contact details for the purchaser ether before or at the point of agreeing the sale.
		
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why?


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## splashgirl45 (24 October 2021)

fingers crossed horse gets collected ok


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## Spotherisk (24 October 2021)

Ooh, any news OP?


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## ycbm (24 October 2021)

PeterNatt said:



			I find it very strange that the seller did not obtain all the contact details for the purchaser ether before or at the point of agreeing the sale.
		
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I don't.  I've rarely had the full details of the buyer of a horse until the day they picked it up to take it home.  
.


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## AFishOutOfWater (24 October 2021)

And waiting....


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## PaulineW (24 October 2021)

PeterNatt said:



			I find it very strange that the seller did not obtain all the contact details for the purchaser ether before or at the point of agreeing the sale.
		
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I find it stranger that the buyer paid in full and didn’t leave her contact details.


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## Gloi (24 October 2021)

nagblagger said:



			Hi, my first time on writing - been a secret stalker.! But slightly concerned that if she has had covid less than 10 days ago she is still potentially infectious! Be careful.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, she should still be self isolating, like I am ☹️


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## Pearlsasinger (24 October 2021)

Equi said:



			Mind blown. I was today years old when I learned….
		
Click to expand...


I live not far from wall that still has the tenterhooks that used to be used by the people who lived in the area and wove woollen cloth nearby.  They were a community resource.


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## Amymay (24 October 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I live not far from wall that still has the tenterhooks that used to be used by the people who lived in the area and wove woollen cloth nearby.  They were a community resource.
		
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Every day is a learning day.  I thought it was tenderhooks 🤣🤣


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## pixie (24 October 2021)

I'm invested in this one now


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## Nicnac (24 October 2021)

Has OP been taken along with the horse? Curiouser and curiouser!


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## PictusSweetDreams (24 October 2021)

How strange. I’m so invested in this post, makes me wonder if it was even real now 🙄


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## Chuffy99 (24 October 2021)

Have we all fallen for a troll, did wonder about halfway through?


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## Lois Lame (24 October 2021)

I am sure the OP is genuine.


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## jay2bee (24 October 2021)

Sorry to keep you all waiting.

Couple of things first… no I’m not a troll, this is a relatively new username because I lost the password to my old one which was JDChaser. 

Secondly, what other contact details would I have got? I sell a few horses a year, ex-racers I take on through my job as a racing head lass. Usually I get a phone call, they see the horse, they buy it or don’t. I don’t get their address or whatever because why would I need to?! Why is that weird. I’ve bought horses before from people who only had my first name and not even a phone number. 

Thirdly… She didn’t turn up! Texted half an hour after she was meant to be there to say she still wasn’t well enough. I’ve replied to say unfortunately I can’t wait anymore, send me your bank details so I can refund you. No reply. I’ll call the bank tomorrow and ask them to refund it, I’m assuming they can.


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## jay2bee (24 October 2021)

Fourthly, if anyone wants a lovely natured 16.2hh 6 year old gelding ex NH horse then hit me up. Although I’ll be demanding your address, your parents address, your maiden name, your date of birth…


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## Spotherisk (24 October 2021)

Blimey, what a weird thing to happen!  I hope you can get the refund sorted easily, and the horse sold well.


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## kc921 (25 October 2021)

Must admit, if I sold my horse and someone messed me about like this I wouldn't be selling to them at all. 
Huge red flags and I wouldn't want them near him! 
She's messed you about so much, well done to you for keeping your cool, hope you are able to refund the money tomorrow and sell the horse to a lovely owner!


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## SatansLittleHelper (25 October 2021)

What a nightmare..!!!!


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## motherof2beasts! (25 October 2021)

What a pain in the ass, maybe she brought on impulse and hasn’t yet got livery/ told husband etc 🤷‍♀️.

I think your doing the right thing refunding as however unwell you are it takes 2 seconds and 0 energy to keep someone updated.


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## CanteringCarrot (25 October 2021)

I also think refunding and advertising the horse again would be the best decision.

If I were ill, I would either offer to pay board to the seller and ask if the horse could stay for a bit, arrange transport to my yard (professional or a friend), or say I'm too ill to go through with this. It's not that difficult. I'm not sure if someone made an impulse buy, or a buy that they just can't ultimately afford and/or manage. Either way, it's not fair to the seller to buy the horse and fall off the face of the earth.


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## spotty_pony (25 October 2021)

Flipping heck what a messy situation! I agree - refund the money. I would be livid by this point after them not turning up and would be washing my hands of them. Hope you find the horse a lovely home soon.


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## Trouper (25 October 2021)

I'm sorry for you, OP, that those among us who are more suspicious were proved right - but glad for the horse that he now has the chance of a different owner.

He sounds lovely - if only I were still young enough.................


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## ycbm (25 October 2021)

I vote this the most riveting thread of the year. Please keep us updated about what happens.  I'm so tempted to ask you how much,  I'd love another TB.  
.


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## PictusSweetDreams (25 October 2021)

What a bizarre outcome for you. I can’t believe the buyer has paid and didn’t turn up!

I would definitely re-advertise. Hopefully the bank can help you with the refund, never in my life have I heard of someone paying and not picking up…nout funnier than folk!


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## TPO (25 October 2021)

If the bank won't or can't refund the money still proceed with readvertising. I'm sure she will get in touch at some point to get her money back.

So random that she's received a text from you cancelling the sale and hasn't done anything about a refund. I don't understand it at all!


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## Lois Lame (25 October 2021)

Perhaps she made too hasty a decision. (The buyer I mean, not OP.)


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## Cinnamontoast (25 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			I vote this the most riveting thread of the year. Please keep us updated about what happens.  I'm so tempted to ask you how much,  I'd love another TB. 
.
		
Click to expand...

Do it! What’s the worst that can happen?!


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## meleeka (25 October 2021)

What a strange situation!

I’d still advertise and sell, even if you can’t refund her.  Presumably she’ll be in touch eventually for her money.  She’s broken the contract in that she hasn’t collected the ‘goods’ as agreed, so I don’t think there’s any point in continuing with her.


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## ester (25 October 2021)

If she needed a strangles test doing I did wonder what she as going to do with him once she'd picked him up.


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## EmmaC78 (25 October 2021)

I think you've made the right decision. I wouldn't sell a horse to someone so unreliable. Hope you find another buyer soon.


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## Squeak (25 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			I vote this the most riveting thread of the year. Please keep us updated about what happens.  I'm so tempted to ask you how much,  I'd love another TB. 
.
		
Click to expand...




Cinnamontoast said:



			Do it! What’s the worst that can happen?!
		
Click to expand...


I'm with CT here, you can't beat a good thoroughbred! 

OP I agree with the others, I'd be finding the horse another home as I'd be worried about this person looking after it.


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## jay2bee (25 October 2021)

He's a lovely horse, truly, very athletic looking, dark bay nearly black. He hacks out solo bombproof, and is an awesome hunter. He was too slow for the racetrack, too laid back I think. She's missing out on a good 'un. It's a shame as I really thought they were a good match as she wanted something to hunt and do local ODEs. 

I wonder if she is on HHO!


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## jay2bee (25 October 2021)

ester said:



			If she needed a strangles test doing I did wonder what she as going to do with him once she'd picked him up.
		
Click to expand...

I hadn't even thought about this actually. I had got the vet out anyway to do his vaccination but she never mentioned the strangles test again. So odd.


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## QuantockHills (25 October 2021)

just catching up... did you manage to refund her money?


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## jay2bee (25 October 2021)

QuantockHills said:



			just catching up... did you manage to refund her money?
		
Click to expand...

Not yet, I'm going into town later and to the bank. I can't be bothered to sit on the phone for an hour trying to get through!


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## luckyoldme (25 October 2021)

A whole new way to p a buyer off.
I for one think ycbm should buy this horse!


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## luckyoldme (25 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			I vote this the most riveting thread of the year. Please keep us updated about what happens.  I'm so tempted to ask you how much,  I'd love another TB.  
.
		
Click to expand...

Yes! It's ages since you bought a horse.


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## jay2bee (25 October 2021)

I have messaged about 8 people that I had to cancel arranging viewings since she bought him, have already had four come back to me in the last hour wanting to view. It's certainly a seller's market at the minute, even going into winter. Crazy.


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## AandK (25 October 2021)

I have to be honest, it's not surprising she didn't turn up, and I feel glad for the horse tbh. Sounds like you'll have no issue selling him, he sounds like a lovely chap, just what I'd want if I was looking!


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## Surbie (25 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			Thirdly… She didn’t turn up! Texted half an hour after she was meant to be there to say she still wasn’t well enough. I’ve replied to say unfortunately I can’t wait anymore, send me your bank details so I can refund you. No reply. I’ll call the bank tomorrow and ask them to refund it, I’m assuming they can.
		
Click to expand...

Who buys a horse and then leaves it there? That's just the most bonkers thing I've heard in a little while!

I hope you can get the money refunded through the bank, and the horse back up for sale.


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## AFishOutOfWater (25 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			I vote this the most riveting thread of the year. Please keep us updated about what happens.  I'm so tempted to ask you how much,  I'd love another TB.
.
		
Click to expand...

Do it!!! Get him! He sounds LOVELY


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## Regandal (25 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			He's a lovely horse, truly, very athletic looking, dark bay nearly black. He hacks out solo bombproof, and is an awesome hunter. He was too slow for the racetrack, too laid back I think. She's missing out on a good 'un. It's a shame as I really thought they were a good match as she wanted something to hunt and do local ODEs.

I wonder if she is on HHO!
		
Click to expand...

Oooh, sounds lovely. Hope he gets a nice home.


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## HeyMich (25 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			He's a lovely horse, truly, very athletic looking, dark bay nearly black. He hacks out solo bombproof, and is an awesome hunter. He was too slow for the racetrack, too laid back I think. She's missing out on a good 'un. It's a shame as I really thought they were a good match as she wanted something to hunt and do local ODEs.

I wonder if she is on HHO!
		
Click to expand...

I must admit, I'm quite tempted myself.... (For my rapidly growing son who's looking quite squashed up on his 14.2 super pony and is getting quite serious about eventing, but I'd obviously have to ride him, hack him, and have a go over some XC fences, purely for quality control purposes of course). But no. He's fine on the super pony for a while longer. We don't have the land over winter or stables for 5. No, absolutley not. Next year maybe... 

OP, seriously, if you find another like this in late winter/springtime, please let me know!


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## AFishOutOfWater (25 October 2021)

HeyMich said:



			I must admit, I'm quite tempted myself.... (For my rapidly growing son who's looking quite squashed up on his 14.2 super pony and is getting quite serious about eventing, but I'd obviously have to ride him, hack him, and have a go over some XC fences, purely for quality control purposes of course). But no. He's fine on the super pony for a while longer. We don't have the land over winter or stables for 5. No, absolutley not. Next year maybe...

OP, seriously, if you find another like this in late winter/springtime, please let me know!
		
Click to expand...

Are you sure? These teenagers do grow ever so fast....


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## AFishOutOfWater (25 October 2021)

Ok I'll stop he just sounds really really really lovely  . Op I hope he finds a fantastic home! 💖


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## Fransurrey (25 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			I have messaged about 8 people that I had to cancel arranging viewings since she bought him, have already had four come back to me in the last hour wanting to view. It's certainly a seller's market at the minute, even going into winter. Crazy.
		
Click to expand...

That's great, but be very careful not to proceed with anything until that money is back with the original buyer. Not even a viewing. I'm sure you will be (especially after this), but this horse currently doesn't belong to you! He sounds amazing and I'd certainly be tempted if I was looking!


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## meleeka (25 October 2021)

Fransurrey said:



			That's great, but be very careful not to proceed with anything until that money is back with the original buyer. Not even a viewing. I'm sure you will be (especially after this), but this horse currently doesn't belong to you! He sounds amazing and I'd certainly be tempted if I was looking! 

Click to expand...

if he belongs to the buyer then they’ve abandoned him.  I think it’s more of a cancelled sale due to breach of contract.


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## Pearlsasinger (25 October 2021)

Fransurrey said:



			That's great, but be very careful not to proceed with anything until that money is back with the original buyer. Not even a viewing. I'm sure you will be (especially after this), but this horse currently doesn't belong to you! He sounds amazing and I'd certainly be tempted if I was looking! 

Click to expand...


Please do take legal advice about how to proceed, OP, although ,as you gave the buyer every opportunity to collect the horse and she hasn't paid you to keep him over the last week, I would expect you to be fine to readvertise and sell on.


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## HeyMich (25 October 2021)

Snail said:



			Are you sure? These teenagers do grow ever so fast....
		
Click to expand...

Yes, this one is growing particularly fast - his feet are already bigger than OH's! I'd be sorely tempted if we had more winter grazing and an extra stable...


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## AFishOutOfWater (25 October 2021)

I wish I had the money for him


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## Mrs. Jingle (25 October 2021)

I am not very up on the direct banking issues, but it has occured to me that using a credit card (and possibly a bank card, I simply don't know), can the buyer do some sort of charge back, where you might refund her and she already has a charge back in the system? That way getting double her money back🤷

Probably a stupid thought but did just wonder could it all be some sort of scam if that is possible? Either way it does all seem very odd from start to finish doesn't it😳


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## jay2bee (25 October 2021)

I'm probably being a bit irresponsible not seeking legal advice, but I just don't think it'll come to anything. She hasn't even replied to my second text saying that since she hasn't sent her bank details I'll be going to the bank to authorise a reversal. It's so bloody odd though. It's not like it's just a few hundred quid. I'd be in bits thinking I was out of pocket thousands, Nowt stranger than folk.


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## jay2bee (25 October 2021)

Mrs Jingle said:



			I am not very up on the direct banking issues, but it has occured to me that using a credit card (and possibly a bank card, I simply don't know), can the buyer do some sort of charge back, where you might refund her and she already has a charge back in the system? That way getting double her money back🤷

Probably a stupid thought but did just wonder could it all be some sort of scam if that is possible? Either way it does all seem very odd from start to finish doesn't it😳
		
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I'm just gonna explain the situation to the bank and then let them sort it tbh, I don't really know if this is a scam or not.


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## Amymay (25 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			I'm probably being a bit irresponsible not seeking legal advice, but I just don't think it'll come to anything. She hasn't even replied to my second text saying that since she hasn't sent her bank details I'll be going to the bank to authorise a reversal. It's so bloody odd though. It's not like it's just a few hundred quid. I'd be in bits thinking I was out of pocket thousands, Nowt stranger than folk.
		
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Have you spoken to the bank?


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## nutjob (25 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			I'm just gonna explain the situation to the bank and then let them sort it tbh, I don't really know if this is a scam or not.
		
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I recommend you speak to your banks fraud dept before returning the money not just a cashier in the branch.  It's a hassle explaining all the ins and outs of the situation but they are very clued up about various scams and will contact the other parties bank who will look at their banking activity to see if there is anything out of the ordinary.  Mrs Jingle is correct, they can start a charge back even if it is a bank transfer not a card payment and may end up getting the money twice if you also do a transfer back.  Several of the things the buyer has done are unusual and not how a normal horse purchaser would behave.   I agree there is normally no need to get the buyers details if they have paid for the horse but this one has gone downright weird now!!


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## Birker2020 (25 October 2021)

I agree.  Even though the lady selling Lari was legit I didn't really know her from Adam.  When I bought Lari I transferred £500 deposit on the Saturday which was to hold him subject to him passing the vet.  On the Wednesday I sent £5K and the Thursday the balance and felt really apprehensive about doing so before he was loaded into the lorry, but I was so worried about turning up and the money 'being stuck' in the cloud!  But I was also worried about turning up and not finding anyone home too lol.

There is no way I'd pay an amount of money and not be in direct contact with the seller. It's very fishy if you ask me.


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## Old school (25 October 2021)

It is great that you have this very genuine thread. It may stand in your favour should this go legal. I would be very cautious about it being a scam. These folks know the exact tone to take and the buttons to hit in order to suck you in. It is frightening the lengths they will go to. But like the folks who hack major IT systems,  it pays very well. Please be cautious and think only about how you protect yourself.


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## jay2bee (25 October 2021)

Called off my partner's phone, last chance saloon to try and avoid going to the bank. She picked up. Said please can you send me your bank details and I'll refund you straight away and we can both just move on. She gave them to me, I've verified the identity on the Barclays app and refunded her. Done and dusted. All that effing hassle for what! Goes to show, never judge a book by the cover. I could have screamed when she just said "oh right yeah let me get the details" ?! Why not just do that a week ago!


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## meleeka (25 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			Called off my partner's phone, last chance saloon to try and avoid going to the bank. She picked up. Said please can you send me your bank details and I'll refund you straight away and we can both just move on. She gave them to me, I've verified the identity on the Barclays app and refunded her. Done and dusted. All that effing hassle for what! Goes to show, never judge a book by the cover. I could have screamed when she just said "oh right yeah let me get the details" ?! Why not just do that a week ago!
		
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I think she’s got to be the ultimate time waster!  Presumably she didn’t sound very ill on the phone?

Glad it’s all sorted anyway.


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## Asha (25 October 2021)

Good grief.. heres me thinking poor woman has covid she just feels rough.. of course she wants the horse if shes paid for him .. it will come good in the end. Well arent i a naive nancy 

Well done for keeping your cool OP.

In my old grandfathers words' theres nowt as funny as folk'


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## jay2bee (25 October 2021)

I already have someone coming to see him tonight, a friend of a friend so at least I know they're hopefully more genuine.


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## AFishOutOfWater (25 October 2021)

Fingers crossed for you!!


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## Cinnamontoast (25 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			Called off my partner's phone, last chance saloon to try and avoid going to the bank. She picked up. Said please can you send me your bank details and I'll refund you straight away and we can both just move on. She gave them to me, I've verified the identity on the Barclays app and refunded her. Done and dusted. All that effing hassle for what! Goes to show, never judge a book by the cover. I could have screamed when she just said "oh right yeah let me get the details" ?! Why not just do that a week ago!
		
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Extraordinary! Why buy him in the first place? What a time waster!


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## Mrs. Jingle (25 October 2021)

I hate to be the one to put a downer on the outcome. But I really, really would not have sent that money to her without some serious advice from your bank first😳 but then I have learned not to trust anyone full stop, hopefully it will all be ok now.


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## ycbm (25 October 2021)

jay2bee said:



			Called off my partner's phone, last chance saloon to try and avoid going to the bank. She picked up. Said please can you send me your bank details and I'll refund you straight away and we can both just move on. She gave them to me, I've verified the identity on the Barclays app and refunded her. Done and dusted. All that effing hassle for what! Goes to show, never judge a book by the cover. I could have screamed when she just said "oh right yeah let me get the details" ?! Why not just do that a week ago!
		
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Yes I think that just about qualifies as a time waster 🤣

Not funny for you,  sorry,  but I'm glad it's sorted. 
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## Surbie (25 October 2021)

Glad you have it sorted and congrats on managing it so well. I don't think I would have.

Hope the next viewing goes well, it sounds a better prospect.


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## Berpisc (25 October 2021)

Good luck for this viewing!


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## Quigleyandme (25 October 2021)

I wonder if she simply got carried away and subsequently regretted buying the horse - high costs, hard work, tied down, etc. Maybe someone close to her had a go or pointed out all the negative aspects of horse ownership. Maybe she is manic. Whatever, it is a very unsatisfactory way to behave and I think OP has been really decent about it and the buyer is bloody lucky.


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## Esmae (25 October 2021)

Well fill my boots with custard!!!  What a carry on!  Glad you have sorted it in the end OP.  I need a lie down in a darkened room just reading all of this,  so goodness knows how you must have been feeling


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## myheartinahoofbeat (25 October 2021)

What a mess. Sounds like a money laundering scam to me. Let's hope you can now put this behind you and find him a nice home.


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## smolmaus (25 October 2021)

Esmae said:



			Well fill my boots with custard!!!  What a carry on!
		
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Ty for this delightful phrase.


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## Lipglosspukka (25 October 2021)

It sounds like a possible money laundering scam I suppose. They send you the funds from one account and you send it to another account. Making it harder to diagnose where funds came from and for them to appear clean.....BUT quite frankly it would have been a massive gamble. If I (and indeed many others I'm sure) were in your shoes then I would have deducted livery fees, selling fees etc. I'm sure some people would probably point blank refuse to refund at all and have claimed the horse as abandoned. 

It would be much easier and less risky to launder it through a business. 

I don't think you have been scammed or conned into being a money mule. I think there is nowt queer as folk and you just happened to get caught in a strange situation. 

As for charge backs. You can't charge back a bank transfer. Charge backs are for card transactions.


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## nutjob (25 October 2021)

Lipglosspukka said:



			You can't charge back a bank transfer.
		
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You CAN charge back a bank transfer.  Sadly I have recently been a victim of a scam and know a lot more about it now.


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## Mrs. Jingle (25 October 2021)

[QUOTE="Lipglosspukka, post: 14751800, member: 

As for charge backs. You can't charge back a bank transfer. Charge backs are for card transactions.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for clarifying on the charge back point I mooted as perhaps a possibility Lipglosspukka, I really had no idea either way 👍


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## Lipglosspukka (25 October 2021)

nutjob said:



			You CAN charge back a bank transfer.  Sadly I have recently been a victim of a scam and know a lot more about it now.
		
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You don't know what a chargeback is. A chargeback is when a customer alerts their bank to an issue with a transaction done on their card, be that goods not received, goods not as described, transaction did not complete at point of purchase etc. The bank then does a chargeback on that CARD transaction. The money is pulled from the merchant and remains so unless they second present and provide evidence as to why the transaction should stand against the account. 

Charge backs have nothing to do with bank transfers. A charge back is solely for card transactions.


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## Mrs. Jingle (25 October 2021)

nutjob said:



			You CAN charge back a bank transfer.  Sadly I have recently been a victim of a scam and know a lot more about it now.
		
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Oh!! Cross posted with you, as I had assumed LG had put me right as a possible bank/financial expert type person who had the definitive answer ,- obviously not then 🤷


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## Mrs. Jingle (25 October 2021)

Lipglosspukka said:



			You don't know what a chargeback is. 

Charge backs have nothing to do with bank transfers. A charge back is solely for card transactions.
		
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Perhaps I confused the issue by using the term 'charge back's incorrectly? So is something similar possible with a bank transfer but just has different terminology?


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## Lipglosspukka (25 October 2021)

Mrs Jingle said:



			Perhaps I confused the issue by using the term 'charge back's incorrectly? So is something similar possible with a bank transfer but just has different terminology?
		
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Yes but No. Banks can work together to return funds in certain cases. As a general rule, bank transfers are guaranteed funds. 

I really wouldn't stress.


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## nutjob (25 October 2021)

Mrs Jingle said:



			Perhaps I confused the issue by using the term 'charge back's incorrectly? So is something similar possible with a bank transfer but just has different terminology?
		
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I'll try to explain it with my own example.  

I paid a deposit on a horse.  The dealer then decided to sell the horse to someone else and keep my deposit - £500.  I phoned CAB as I wanted the dealer reported to trading stds and I assumed the only way to get my money back was via small claims court.  CAB advised me to first try a charge back on the bank transfer as the transaction was part of a scam.  I called my banks fraud dept and made a lengthy statement.  They agreed to try a charge back which pulls the money back out of the scammers account.  The scammers bank contacts them to get their version of things before just sending the money back.  In my case it was clear that the dodgy dealer was operating a specific 'scammer account' so that as soon as the funds reached their account they were moved on immediately to another account from where they couldn't be pulled.  The dodgy account was immediately frozen as Santander who were the scammers banks reviewed how the account was being operated - ie in line with scamming not like a normal business account.  My bank has sent me a 2 page letter explaining how this works.  So I am now in small claims, not because there is no charge back process but because the dealer rarely had other than zero in the account except for a short time period before transferring the funds on.  I know from folks who have contacted me on fb that he is now asking for horses to be paid for into someone else's account as his scammer account is frozen.


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## jt1775 (25 October 2021)

I’d like to take the chance to explain my side of this story. To have it told is publically is really upsetting, Jo you might as well have just put my name everywhere and as you are part of an influential racing family in this area I feel embarrassed to be in the horse world here now.

The reasons I didn’t get the horse in the end were yes I was very ill and still am. Plus you didn’t tell me he had been a racehorse , I thought he had only done hunting professionally. I didn’t want a racehorse and struggled with whether to try and ask for a refund or to go ahead with it despite my trepidation. I only realised when my friend told me he had been a racehorse for two years , you advertised him as a hunt horse? I paid 9 thousand pounds which my friends now tell me is a ridiculous amount of money for an ex racer and I think I was taken for a mug in that regard. I struggle with confrontation so decided to wait until I was feeling better before making a proper decision on whether to go ahead with the purchase . I did avoid calls I admit because again I was ill and don’t like confrontation and hadn’t yet made a proper decision. Have some empathy!!!


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## Lipglosspukka (25 October 2021)

jt1775 said:



			I’d like to take the chance to explain my side of this story. To have it told is publically is really upsetting, Jo you might as well have just put my name everywhere and as you are part of an influential racing family in this area I feel embarrassed to be in the horse world here now.

The reasons I didn’t get the horse in the end were yes I was very ill and still am. Plus you didn’t tell me he had been a racehorse , I thought he had only done hunting professionally. I didn’t want a racehorse and struggled with whether to try and ask for a refund or to go ahead with it despite my trepidation. I only realised when my friend told me he had been a racehorse for two years , you advertised him as a hunt horse? I paid 9 thousand pounds which my friends now tell me is a ridiculous amount of money for an ex racer and I think I was taken for a mug in that regard. I struggle with confrontation so decided to wait until I was feeling better before making a proper decision on whether to go ahead with the purchase . I did avoid calls I admit because again I was ill and don’t like confrontation and hadn’t yet made a proper decision. Have some empathy!!!
		
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She refunded you. You didn't voice these concerns to her by the sounds of things. She hasn't mentioned your name on here. Where's your beef?


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## bonny (25 October 2021)

jt1775 said:



			I’d like to take the chance to explain my side of this story. To have it told is publically is really upsetting, Jo you might as well have just put my name everywhere and as you are part of an influential racing family in this area I feel embarrassed to be in the horse world here now.

The reasons I didn’t get the horse in the end were yes I was very ill and still am. Plus you didn’t tell me he had been a racehorse , I thought he had only done hunting professionally. I didn’t want a racehorse and struggled with whether to try and ask for a refund or to go ahead with it despite my trepidation. I only realised when my friend told me he had been a racehorse for two years , you advertised him as a hunt horse? I paid 9 thousand pounds which my friends now tell me is a ridiculous amount of money for an ex racer and I think I was taken for a mug in that regard. I struggle with confrontation so decided to wait until I was feeling better before making a proper decision on whether to go ahead with the purchase . I did avoid calls I admit because again I was ill and don’t like confrontation and hadn’t yet made a proper decision. Have some empathy!!!
		
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Wow, you were prepared to spend that kind of money without doing any research or having the horse vetted ? I smell a rat


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## ycbm (25 October 2021)

I think this thread may need to be locked or even removed, before it turns into something nasty. 
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## jay2bee (25 October 2021)

I'm not getting involved in this any further. All I'm going to do is leave the advert below which you replied to J, clearly showing he was a racer. I don't hold grudges, it's all over with now. Get well soon.


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## exracehorse (25 October 2021)

Plot thickens


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## AFishOutOfWater (25 October 2021)

@HHO admin @TheFatControlleR


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## bonny (25 October 2021)

Could it be that someone didn’t understand what you meant by ex national hunt ? That would make sense ?


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## Bowie (25 October 2021)

Please forgive me as I genuinely asking this question (long time reader and love reading this forum). Isn’t an ex-national hunt an ex-racer?  Sorry if wrong.


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## silv (25 October 2021)

Does the phrase ex National Hunt not mean it was a racehorse? Nice horse!


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## jay2bee (25 October 2021)

bonny said:



			Could it be that someone didn’t understand what you meant by ex national hunt ? That would make sense ?
		
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There's a photo of him racing too on the advert but I guess....!?


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## Mrs. Jingle (25 October 2021)

Oh dear what a can of worms this thread has turned into!  Jt1775 you have not been identified on here at all, except for a couple of very minor clues in your own post.

I do agree with with further information, as always there is another side to this story and although I don't think you handled backing out of the sale very well. But certainly understand able given your explanation.

Perhaps best for both parties to take this whole sorry situation to a more appropriate privaterr  discussion?


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## jt1775 (25 October 2021)

No point on the ad does it say ex racehorse!!!


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## OrangeAndLemon (25 October 2021)

jt1775 said:



			No point on the ad does it say ex racehorse!!!
		
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Did you respond to an advert other than the one shared above?


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## Red-1 (25 October 2021)

jt1775 said:



			No point on the ad does it say ex racehorse!!!
		
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It does, it says Ex National Hunt. Plus, there appears to be a photo of the horse out racing.

All very peculiar. More mysterious after your post, as I don't think your identity had been revealed at all!

Nice looking horse, BTW, OP.


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## I'm Dun (25 October 2021)

jt1775 said:



			No point on the ad does it say ex racehorse!!!
		
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It says ex national hunt and theres a photo of him racing. So um, yes it does.


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## ycbm (25 October 2021)

jt1775 said:



			No point on the ad does it say ex racehorse!!!
		
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Stop digging and be grateful you got a refund.

Ex national hunt means race horse who raced under national hunt rules.  The horse is pictured with a jockey on wearing racing silks.

You were very lucky that a seller allowed you to back out of this deal so easily. 

Please,  for your own sake,  stop this.
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