# 'natural' feed balancer/supplement



## lucymay9701 (21 September 2013)

Hi everyone, I was looking at completely changing my horses diet this winter due to allergy problems.  I want to eliminate as many unnecessary ingredients as possible like soya, molasses - as much as possible really that she doesn't need.  My plan is to feed her on a plain chop, speedibeet, micronised linseed with some mint added (in the hope that will tempt her to eat it!).  She's a 26 year old thoroughbred and is in good condition but will need something to maintain this over the winter which is the reason for the micronised linseed.  She has borderline cushings, monitored by the vet and is currently on chastetree berry for that.  She also has MSM and probiotics and at present red cell pellets.  I want to stop the red cell pellets as been reading more about things and not happy to keep feeding the iron and would like to replace these with something more 'natural'.  She is also fed marksway high fibre or timothy horsehage ad lib and goes through plenty of it all year round!   Most of the balancers I look at seem to have something in I don't want like the molasses or soya.  The vitamin and mineral supplements vary so much that I have no idea which is the best!  So the 2 I was going to look into are progressive earth and forage plus.  I just wondered if anyone knew of any others that may be suitable so that I can add them to the list to look into!  Any help would be appreciated!  Thanks very much, Lucy


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## cobs and carrots (21 September 2013)

I'm planning on doing exactly the same thing!! Have eliminated cereals and as much starch as possible from my cob's diet, and I will only feed her completely natural supplements - but I am feeding hi fi lite as my chaff so a little molasses sneaks in, which I'm not too fussed about since she will be clipped out and worked a much as possible. 

I love Natural Horse Supplies (google them if you haven't already!), take a look at their herbal blends - Herbal Health or Herbal Shine might be of interest  all of their products are completely natural and so cheap! I'm going to be ordering some stuff from them this week in prep for winter. Hope this helps!!


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## amandap (21 September 2013)

There's Equimins metabalance. You have to contact them and explain your horse is   borderline PPID. It isn't on their website.

The gold standard is to get your grazing and hay tested and get a bespoke feed plan made up. This is extra costly of course but may be worth it if other changes don't help.


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## Hurricanelady (21 September 2013)

Hi I wanted to find a base ration/balancer that had as little unnecessary/undesirable ingredients as possible and I settled on the Equimins Advance Complete Concentrate.  I feed the powder version, although their pelleted version is prepared using a cold pelleting system to apparently avoid degrading the ingredients with heat.  It doesn't have anything on the ingredients list that I wish to avoid, such as soya, molasses etc.  I feed this (at 100g per horse per day as I believe this amount is necessary to ensure the right level of vitamins and minerals) and my 5 horses (ranging from a yearling to 19 year old hunter and 19 year old brood mare) and they all do very well on it.  I feed it alongside Micronized linseed, grass chaff and soaked grass nuts.  It is difficult for us to get the majority of our winter forage analysed because our haylage supplier doesn't test and sometimes buys in - if I was in a better position to analyse the forage it could be possible that this balancer is not the optimum choice but it's a good compromise for us.  It has recently had the iron in it reduced, they seem to continue developing the product when necessary.  If the horse has borderline cushings though, things like grass chaff and grass nuts may not be suitable for it due to the sugar content.  My working horses may need something additional this winter especially the hunters, if this diet proves not sufficient to maintain condition, I will add soaked whole oats or bruised oats as they actually have a low starch content for a cereal and have a lot of other benefits.  Good luck


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## lucymay9701 (21 September 2013)

Thanks very much for the replies - I'll add all those things to the list to look into!  I had thought of getting a bespoke feed plan made up - when I contact the companies I'll mention this, but marksway have the analysis of the horsehage I use on the website so hoping this may help when I e-mail.  Having said that there looks to be a lot more tested for in the forage analysis so may need to send it off anyway.  I think the main problem I'll have is getting my girl to eat her feed and still enjoy it, that's my worry but hoping the mint will help with that! Thanks again


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## amandap (21 September 2013)

lucymay9701 said:



			I think the main problem I'll have is getting my girl to eat her feed and still enjoy it, that's my worry but hoping the mint will help with that! Thanks again
		
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If she's fussy, add a small amount of of the balancer and gradually increase. The micronised linseed is very palatable to most horses so that helps. There are lots of ideas on the diet section of this forum.
http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/index.php


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## bluehorse (21 September 2013)

Thunderbrook base mix is an excellent balancer and very much along the lines of what you are looking for:

http://thunderbrook.co.uk/equine-pure-essentials-base-mix/


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## lucymay9701 (22 September 2013)

Thanks very much for the replies and the link to the other forum, good to know the linseed is usually palatable and should help as I thought that wouldn't be palatable!  Also the thunderbrook looks great, so I'll add that to the list to look into more!


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## claribella (22 September 2013)

Do you know I came on this thread and tried writing a reply, not once, not twice but four times! Every time I lost the essay I wrote! Arggghhh!

I second the thunderbrook. I put off buying it as a bag looked so expensive but when I worked out how much I was spending on my old mare, I realised that if it lived up to the claims of lasting a long time then It may well work out cheaper for me. It has and I'm really impressed so far. The changes in her have been great. She's what. Suspec to be IR but her fat packs have decreased, her poo hardened up, she's kept weight despite being n limited grass, she actually eats it, lots of other changes too. I like that it contains everything including pre and pro biotic, mag ox, linseed etc etc and it's easy. You hardly feed anything and a bag lasts me a couple of months. It's well worth looking into


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## lucymay9701 (22 September 2013)

Thanks very much claribella, the thunderbrook website is very interesting - I'll definitely contact them next week - hoping they will send out samples!  Trying to get in lots of samples of things and then let my horse help make the decision! Think the thunderbrook may look the most palatable and what I am looking for.


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## claribella (22 September 2013)

Unfortunately they don't do samples yet. That's one of the things that put me off feeding it for a while because my mare is soooooo fussy but in the end I bit the bullet and thought if she doesn't eat it then I can mix it in with what she was on before. They said to me via email that it isn't currently viable for them to do samples as they cant warrant the extra packaging etc as they aren't a huge company at the mo. Hopefully they will sometime in the future. Bit of a shame really It does smell yum but its a funny texture althought my irl laps it up. I don't know if you've ever tried adding water to micronized linseed but it goes a bit sticky and gooey. I think some people add chaff to it but my girl prefereed it on its own funnily enough. I hope you manae to find what you are looking for though


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## lucymay9701 (22 September 2013)

That's a shame about the samples!  I wouldn't have minded paying for them.  I can understand with a small company that sending samples out is a problem.  I just had some honey chop sent and the postage was £2.60 and looking at the consistency I don't think my horse will like it so I felt guilty!  But I'd have been happy to pay the postage to save buying a big bag and then finding she wouldn't eat it.  Shame they don't do a sample pack where you can pick say 3 samples for £5 or something - better than buying a huge bag and finding they won't eat it!  Oh well, I've emailed them anyway for advice and will see what they come back with. I'm undecided between thunderbrook and forage plus I think.  The equimins one mentioned does look quite good aswell.  (have looked at natural horse supplies aswell and looks to be all sorts of goodies there!) I'm still going to look into the progressive earth aswell but would prefer to avoid the wheatfeed that is in that but then if she eats it I would consider it.  I think I read somewhere that progressive earth do send out samples and I'm hoping so do forageplus!  I'm fairly sure she would eat the equimins in pellet form as had the tip top pellets from there before.  Just wondering how you manage to get smiley faces in you message?  I can't work out how to on the horse and hound forum - if I choose a smiley face it just puts it next to the title of the message!


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## claribella (23 September 2013)

You know I never even realised I did smiley faces. I literally do a sad and happy face by using the brackets so : ) but if you don't put a space in between then they come out as above I guess

Yes it is a shame but you've just reminded me they do do a smaller bag of the base mix I think its 10kg rather than 20kg and im not 100% but I think its 20 quid or something. 

Its so difficult. Theres so much choice isn't there and I found the more I researched feeds and things, I was shocked at how much rubbish they can put in the bags and how much they can get aweay with not saying. I just noticed on allen and pages site that they are saying that the fast fibre includes linseed. I checked the ingrediants and because it includes a linseed expeller (I think that's what they call it) they can then state it contains linseed! Linseed expeller isn't linseed at all! My girl I suspected had IR as she was showing lots of signs so that's what got me looking into finding something that was a bit more wholesome. She eats better than I do! Hope you manage to find something that works for you!!


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## Jackie JA Taylor (23 September 2013)

The problem with 'natural balancers' is that they are a contradiction in terms. Most diets need 'balancing' with the addition of the trace and macro minerals that may deficient in the diet, and because you are trying to make up for the lack of a substance in a large amount of forage or grass, the only way to do this is with a highly concentrated form - such as a mineral supplement or balancer. A bit of seaweed, linseed, coconut meal or any other feedstuff you care to mention is just not going to be able to do this.

There are various feedstuff products on the market which claim to be' balancers' but I have yet to see any which come anywhere supplying enough of minerals like Zinc and Copper, let alone Vitamin E or B Vitamins, amino acids like Methionine............... 

If you cannot analyse, my advice would be to feed a good quality mineral supplement if you want to totally avoid molasses etc.


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## lucymay9701 (23 September 2013)

Hi Jackie, Thank you for your reply.  All this is so confusing!  So with the thunderbrook the ingredients are all natural but there doesn't seem to be an analysis of the amount of vitamins and minerals in them.  I had looked at previous supplements and the amounts all differ so much.  I haven't got around to breaking down the spec on the equimins advanced concentrate but at a brief look, looks quite good.  The progressive earth and forage plus do look to be much higher in zinc and copper than previous supplements I have looked at and seem to be more along the lines of what you are suggesting but there is a big difference in the amount both companies recommend which is confusing me more!  Progressive earth recommend 50g of their pro balance which would provide:
175mg copper
525mg zinc
6g magnesium
1500mg methionine
10mg biotin
5000mg lysine
1000mg vit E
0.75mg selenium
2g sodium
2.5g calcium
7.9g wheatfeed

But forage plus recommend 100g of their balancer which if I go for the ordinary balancer is:
13g micronised linseed
12g magnesium
10g lysine
5g salt
5g phosphorus
1200mg zinc
400mg copper
1mg
2000iu vit E
(they also do a hoof health one which includes methionine, thiamine, biotin, folic acid and pyridoxine - it doesn't list the amounts though but I would be tempted to go for this one with the additional things in it if I bought forage plus)

But my query that I wonder if you can help me with please is which of these would provide the amount of copper, zinc etc you are meaning (if any).  The reason I am confused is the progressive earth recommended amount is about half what she would be getting of the minerals etc compared to if I fed the recommended amount of the forageplus.  Everything in this amount would be much higher.  Now I guess in theory if I wanted more I could double the amount of the progressive earth balancer if I chose that but then that would give more selenium at 1.5mg than the forage plus.  Any tips on the zinc, copper, vitamin E amounts you are referring to would be great.  Just looking at the spec for previous supplements I can see the zinc and copper in the above 2 is better but its the huge difference in the recommended amount that is confusing me!

Thanks for the tip about the smiley faces claribella - just doing a practice   : ) and hoping one comes out right!  I know what you mean about the horses eating better than us! (great the smiley faces worked!)


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## Jackie JA Taylor (23 September 2013)

The first has nearer the kind of levels I would recommend using on an ongoing basis without any forage analysis. As a guide I recommend TopSpec Comprehensive to my clients with horses with Metabolic problems.


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## Pasha (23 September 2013)

I also use Thunderbrook Base Mix and find the horses love it! It is a natural balancer because it does not contain any synthetic minerals or vitamins.

I have also used the Equimins Advanced Concentrate Meta Balance and although the analysis looks great, my horse never looked so poor whilst on it! I have also used Global Vite and other highly concentrated balancers in the past in the belief I was doing the best for my horses.

I have learned through trial and error that feeding a highly concentrated balancer does not suit every horse, and some of them, mine included, thrive on purely wholesome ingredients  I also add some additional herbs for his specific conditions and he seems to approve as he looks fantastic and wolfs his little bucket feed down each night... can't get him to touch a powdered supplement now! He obviously knows what is good for him


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## lucymay9701 (23 September 2013)

Hi again Jackie, thanks for the reply.  So if you think the first one (progressive earth) has enough zinc and copper etc do you think the amounts in the forage plus at double the amount are too high?  I guess from that you could feed half the recommended amount of forage plus if you went for that one and add in some selenium to bring that back up to 1mg? Thanks again
Just noticed that on the post before this one I missed out selenium next to where I put 1mg!

Thanks very much for the reply about the thunderbrook aswell Pasha.  Its all so confusing, just trying to do the best for my lovely girl and I want her to enjoy her food aswell.  It does seem from what people are saying that they do like the thunderbrook!


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## Jackie JA Taylor (23 September 2013)

You could yes, in as far as it goes. But I prefer a product with back-up Iodine and Methionine as well as a full spectrum of B-vits and a higher Biotin level, so I go for TopSpec and add Magnesium as required.


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## lucymay9701 (23 September 2013)

Thanks very much, I'm very grateful for the advice!


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## Hurricanelady (23 September 2013)

lucymay9701 

I have been through what you're currently experiencing, trying to decide what is the best feed from the myriad of options that are out there in the market.  

My herd were on Thunderbrook for about 12 months, and whilst I certainly really liked the fact that it doesn't contain by-products or things I wish to avoid like molasses, it is very frustrating that they will not provide a vitamin and mineral breakdown.  Also after further in-depth discussion with them, it turned out that actually - additional vitamins and minerals ARE needed for any horse they describe as "compromised".  This includes: old horses, brood mares, youngstock up to about 6, horses working very hard and any horse suffering from conditions like arthritis etc.  So essentially my whole herd.  They recommended their own vitamin and mineral supplement but freely admitted this is a standard synthetic pre-mix that all the other feed companies use to add to their balancers/feeds and/or supply as a standalone  supplement.  This was price at about £29.00 for 1 Kg which compared to the pricing of similar vitamin and mineral supplements is extremely expensive.  Perhaps it is vastly superior to other similar products (although I wouldn't have thought so given the comments from them as to how it is a "standard" synthetic pre-mix), but of course how are you ever to determine that because they will not provide a constituent analysis?  Their often recommended gut restore related products (mostly based around slippery elm I understand - but again, who knows as no complete ingredient list published) are also extremely expensive - frankly when I was feeding everything they recommended (including having to buy additional vits & mins for balancer that already costs £38 a bag before shipping) I was spending an absolute fortune and I also don't think the bran content suited the youngstock.

 I know a lot of people love Thunderbrook and their horses do well on it, but my personal experience is the condition of my herd went rapidly down hill last winter (they all had ad-lib forage so it wasn't that there was insufficient of that) and the amount of feed they were having to have (large amounts of grass chaff, grass nuts, base mix, additional vits & mins, oats) just wasn't an optimal ration.  They are all doing a lot better this year on the Equimins Advance Concentrate, Micronized Linseed, plus smaller amount of Grass Nuts & Grass chaff (oats will be added if needed).   I also use herbs from Equinatural and the horses have never looked better.

You might consider getting your land and forage analysed and then seeing what levels of minerals are recommended from that - Equimins do another version of their Advance Complete called Meta Balance I think, but they will only sell you it if your analysis indicates you need it for the horse in question (fairly sensible I guess to avoid selling people something which is not suitable although I acknowledge the often mentioned complaint that any "balancer" is a contradiction in terms if used without an understanding of what balancing is needed for the particular forage and land concerned).

Good luck, as others have said sometimes it's a matter of trial and error to find out what suits a particular horse   If you do decide to try Thunderbook PM me, I have a number of unopened bags of basemix which I would be happy to sell for £10 plus shipping!


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## lucymay9701 (23 September 2013)

Thanks so much for all the information on thunderbrook and the offer of the bags of base mix, that is very interesting about the vitamin and minerals as if they say older horse would need extra then that would include my girl.  It's just so difficult and confusing!  I haven't had a response yet to see what they would recommend so will take it from there but I had noticed there wasn't an analysis for the vitamin and minerals in the products.  But then I'm not sure my horse will like the other options - it might be that I prefer one option but she doesn't!  I've also contacted forage plus today for specific advice and progressive earth are sending some samples.  Have just come across another one called equivita forage balancer to look into aswell - I'll be glad when its all sorted!


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## Pasha (24 September 2013)

Yes you would have to add extra to the Thunderbrook if your horse was other than in 'light work' as per their website! They never claim that the Base Mix is a sole suitable feed for young horses or those in hard work.

When my boy was in hard work a few years aho and he needed extra, but due to EMS I couldnt feed him hard feed, Debbie at Thunderbrook advised me to feed Global Vite as one of the few broad spec supplements that contains chelated minerals, however, I was subsequently advised to stop that as it contains Yucca which is not recommended for horses with metabolic conditions.

It is an absolute nightmare im afraid! What point is there os listing vit and min content anyway? How are you supposed to know how much to feed of what when every feed company, nutritionist, expert is telling you something different? How can you mineral balance unless you have soil, grass, water and hay analysis done, every year? Who should you listen to?

I had a great session with Catherine from Naturally Animals and she did Iridology and Zoopharmacognosy with my boy! It was something I found very interesting and made me think about nutrition and feeding in a different way! Now I feed MY horse, not a chart!


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## lucymay9701 (24 September 2013)

Yes definitely a nightmare!  At first I used to get advice from the companies and then go for what they advised but now looking into things more I can see how much all the amounts differ and that is just so confusing!  And you've just mentioned that horses with metabolic problems shouldn't have yucca which I didn't know so something else to add to the list - actually just found an article that said some horses with cushings can't tolerate MSM (something my horse usually has!). I haven't read further into that yet - but will do!


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## Hurricanelady (24 September 2013)

Pasha said:



			Yes you would have to add extra to the Thunderbrook if your horse was other than in 'light work' as per their website! They never claim that the Base Mix is a sole suitable feed for young horses or those in hard work.

When my boy was in hard work a few years aho and he needed extra, but due to EMS I couldnt feed him hard feed, Debbie at Thunderbrook advised me to feed Global Vite as one of the few broad spec supplements that contains chelated minerals, however, I was subsequently advised to stop that as it contains Yucca which is not recommended for horses with metabolic conditions.

It is an absolute nightmare im afraid! What point is there os listing vit and min content anyway? How are you supposed to know how much to feed of what when every feed company, nutritionist, expert is telling you something different? How can you mineral balance unless you have soil, grass, water and hay analysis done, every year? Who should you listen to?

I had a great session with Catherine from Naturally Animals and she did Iridology and Zoopharmacognosy with my boy! It was something I found very interesting and made me think about nutrition and feeding in a different way! Now I feed MY horse, not a chart! 

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Pasha, sorry probably didn't make the point very clearly - my main issue was not that extra calorific feed was required with the Thunderbrook base mix for certain types of horses (e.g. those in hard work/breeding stock) the problem I have with it is that it is marketed as "fully balanced" with regard to the mentioned constituents e.g. vitamins, minerals, amino acids, micro nutrients etc etc.  My personal view is that given the price point it has been placed at (£38 per bag before shipping - and it is not easily available certainly here in the North through resellers therefore it has to be shipped) it shouldn't be necessary to have to add additional vitamins and minerals at additional cost, although I can quite understand the need for the additional calorific ration for energy when needed.  I personally happen to find the pricing policy on their products in some cases very high, but others of course may not share that view.  I know and would not dispute that many horse owners have fabulous results on the Thunderbrook rations, it just happened not to be the optimal choice for my horses.  Alternative techniques like the ones you mention can be very useful, on the holistic prevention/treatment side we use Equine Muscle Release Therapy (EMRT - Bowen for horses) and they all love that and get a lot of benefit from it.

Clearly it is not at all easy to determine exactly how much vitamins and minerals any particular horse needs, without carrying out relatively regular full land and forage analysis but at least if you go to the expense of that, being able to see an ingredient constituent list on any feed is beneficial because it gives you a basis for the appropriate calculations.  This is also an interesting post/product with regards to mineral balancing: http://www.equinatural.co.uk/epages...=/Shops/BT3755/Categories/"Mineral Balancing".  Interestingly forage analysis and the resulting adjustments to feed ration is a very well established principle in some areas of the farming industry, but for various reasons/issues (some of which are clearly logistical/management related) it doesn't seem to be as common in the equine community.

lucymay9701 all I can say is try and find a ration that suits her within the framework of what you can practically do regarding your available management regime/land/forage etc and let her guide you as to what is working and what isn't.  That's what we've done trying to get to a compromise that represents the most natural ration possible but one which recognizes their individual requirements (e.g. very old/very young/fairly intensive work) and we're currently happy with the results; but it's something that evolves and changes as necessary depending on their needs at the time


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## Pasha (24 September 2013)

Yes I was warned off Yucca by the ECIR Yahoo Horse Group - everyone says something different and it seems to me that some of the nutritionalists try and sell 'their way' by warning you off others so I have completely lost all faith!

I knew about MSM and stopped feeding that to my boy - he then went and sprained a ligament, then tore a tendon and sprained another tendon! Typical! BUT I do accept that he is a herbivore and therefore porbably unable to digest animal derived products effectively anyway so I have kept him off it and I do have a theory for his injury!

What I don't get (and this is just me musing, I am not expecting an answer) is that we keep getting told that horses are meant to roam over hundreds of acres in the wild, gorging on summer grasses to keep them over the winter, where they use up all their fat reserves, and it is our management of them (keeping them well fed all year round) which has caused the metabolic problems we are now encountering etc etc BUT if that is the case, why do the same people (and by those I mean the Equine community/experts/nutritionists/vets) then harp on about mineral balancing and supplementing where full rations of hard feed are not fed? Would our horses really have had access to the full recommended dose of vits and mins each day all year round in the wild? Do we humans (unless we take a supplement)?

I may be an old sceptic (well not that old lol) but feed and marketing companies have a lot to answer for I think!


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## amandap (24 September 2013)

It appears to me a lot of companies are 'balancing' minerals in line with horses requirements but not taking into account the balance in forage which is by far the largest portion in the diet. 

Some, already mentioned, are balancing to requirements and taking typical analysis of UK grass and hay into account. This raises the level of some minerals and excludes added iron for eg. which is rarely deficient in UK.


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## lucymay9701 (24 September 2013)

Very glad you mentioned the yucca because it was only then that I found out about the MSM and was just about to buy another tub!  Think I will stick with boswellia which she has recently been on but not as easy to get her to eat that as the MSM!


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## Pasha (24 September 2013)

amandap said:



			It appears to me a lot of companies are 'balancing' minerals in line with horses requirements but not taking into account the balance in forage which is by far the largest portion in the diet. 

Some, already mentioned, are balancing to requirements and taking typical analysis of UK grass and hay into account. This raises the level of some minerals and excludes added iron for eg. which is rarely deficient in UK.
		
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Yes and I suppose they are doing a better job of it than the mainstream and providing better quality minerals, but there is rarely much difference between summer and winter offerings which surely cannot be right? Should we be feeding our horses the best all year round? Again not looking for an answer, just voicing the questions that swirl about my head!

I know I do and buy the best that I can for my boy, but I do wonder sometimes if we are killing them with kindness as it were!


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## amandap (24 September 2013)

Pasha said:



			Yes and I suppose they are doing a better job of it than the mainstream and providing better quality minerals, but there is rarely much difference between summer and winter offerings which surely cannot be right? Should we be feeding our horses the best all year round? Again not looking for an answer, just voicing the questions that swirl about my head!

I know I do and buy the best that I can for my boy, but I do wonder sometimes if we are killing them with kindness as it were!
		
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I think most of us wrangle with that question.

The winter ones have added vitamin e, that's the only difference in most. I feed vitamin e to most of mine all year round as they have no or restricted grazing.


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## criso (24 September 2013)

Pasha said:



			Yes and I suppose they are doing a better job of it than the mainstream and providing better quality minerals, but there is rarely much difference between summer and winter offerings which surely cannot be right? Should we be feeding our horses the best all year round? Again not looking for an answer, just voicing the questions that swirl about my head!
		
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I have carried out forage analysis at various yards and done  hay, haylage and grass at different times of the year.

While there are variances in sugar and protein levels during the year, and some items like vitamin e and omega oils are missing in hay but present in grass, mineral levels have remained consistent.

Also while there are differences from yard to yard, in all calcium, manganese and iron have been high.  They have varied from high to incredibly, no room left on the chart high.  So for me these are things to avoid in a balancer.

On the other side Zinc,Copper and Magnesium varied from low to very low.  

Iodine varied being high in one place but low in another.  Phosphorous varied too but was never high.

So even doing mineral balancing,  I feed the same minerals all year round but do make other changes.


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## lucymay9701 (24 September 2013)

That is very interesting - I'm now starting to become interested in iodine as that has been mentioned before.  From that post the forage plus and progressive earth balancers would 'fit' in with the majority of forage analysed which is obviously why they have made them like that but none of them have iodine in.  I think I'll ring Marksway and ask if they know the iodine content of their horsehage.  Also just noticed you can get iodised salt licks - so if I offered my horse an ordinary salt lick and an iodised one I wonder if she'd 'know' herself if she needed the iodised one or if it would give her too much.  Another thing to add to think about!


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## Penny Eater (24 September 2013)

Pasha said:



			What I don't get (and this is just me musing, I am not expecting an answer) is that we keep getting told that horses are meant to roam over hundreds of acres in the wild, gorging on summer grasses to keep them over the winter, where they use up all their fat reserves, and it is our management of them (keeping them well fed all year round) which has caused the metabolic problems we are now encountering etc etc BUT if that is the case, why do the same people (and by those I mean the Equine community/experts/nutritionists/vets) then harp on about mineral balancing and supplementing where full rations of hard feed are not fed? Would our horses really have had access to the full recommended dose of vits and mins each day all year round in the wild? Do we humans (unless we take a supplement)?

I may be an old sceptic (well not that old lol) but feed and marketing companies have a lot to answer for I think!
		
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^this is what I've been wondering! There's not even been any in depth scientific research done into horses vitamin/mineral requirements - it's all based on what they've found cattle do best on. And by 'do best' I guess that means make better/more milk or meat! All a big con. 
Our of interest what do you feed now since having the iridologist/zoopharmacognosy visit?


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## criso (25 September 2013)

I would be cautious with Iodine as it is one of the things that are not great in excess.
Out of 4 places I've only had to supplement once.

Tedmunster I was under the impression that research had been carried out on horses, however only at the extremes i.e. what are the effects of toxicity or severe deficiency, not on the more subtle benefits of getting the optimum balance.

What are geared to livestock are the printouts you get from the labs with colour coded high and low, however as you also get the actual numbers you can look at this.


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## Pasha (25 September 2013)

tedmunster said:



			^this is what I've been wondering! There's not even been any in depth scientific research done into horses vitamin/mineral requirements - it's all based on what they've found cattle do best on. And by 'do best' I guess that means make better/more milk or meat! All a big con. 
Our of interest what do you feed now since having the iridologist/zoopharmacognosy visit?
		
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Yes and that is what my vet has told me, but there is published recommended levels for horses so who knows? 

I now feed Thunderbrook Base Mix as his 'balancer' or base feed if you like with Speedi Beet - this is because it contains Micronised Linseed and Rice Bran (both ok for metabolic horses), Bio Mos, Yea Sacc, Vit E, Seasame Oil, Herbs and Fruits. My horse (and previous horse) also absolutely loves it.

I really like the fact it has no oatfeed/wheatfeed/molasses/soya oil etc

To that I add a special blend of herbs from EquiNatural - they made a blend specifically for my horse.

He has a Redmond Rock and Himalayan Salt Lick in his stable and ad-lib good quality meadow hay which is just being switched over to haylage (now it has cooked enough) that my YO produces and has been fully analysed.

In winter, and/or when competing, if he needs more I either give him grass nuts or plain grass or alfalfa with no added mollasses (I used to feed Dengie but now they've changed to Rape Seed Oil as a coating, will not be using that again I don't think! Soya Oil was bad enough!)

When he had the Iridology and Zoopharmacognosy, he was on Speedi Beet and Equimins Advanced Concentrate Metabalance, Micronised Linseed, Salt and Slippery Elm as per the ECIR Yahoo Group's recommendation (Slippery Elm for his tummy as I have always thought he had Leaky Gut or Ulcers). Catherine said his tummy was fine but he had a mineral imbalance, so that is why I changed back to Thunderbrook! He also hated the Equimins and took ages to eat his dinner, leaving most of his breakfast as well! (Catherine never recommended a feed, she just told me what the results of the iridology were - I am not sure if she endorses any one feed over another).

Catherine at Naturally Animals recommended the Redmond Rock and Himalayan Salt Block. She also recommended loads of herbs which he self selected and I used until he stopped selecting them anymore - was about 3 months! By feeding him the blend from EquiNatural I am going against Zoopharmacognosy, but alot of the blend he had selected himself and the others are specific for Cushings, so I am goimg to continue with them.

Catherine also tested if he needed more Linseed Oil, which he did as he wolfed down loads of cold pressed Linseed Oil. I brought a 5l bottle to add to his feed in addition to the Micronised Linseed he was already getting and towards the end of the bottle he had stopped selecting it.

It is very very interesting and something I think I am going to do again maybe after a year has gone past to see what he selects when in full health and full work


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## Pasha (25 September 2013)

criso said:



			I have carried out forage analysis at various yards and done  hay, haylage and grass at different times of the year.

While there are variances in sugar and protein levels during the year, and some items like vitamin e and omega oils are missing in hay but present in grass, mineral levels have remained consistent.

Also while there are differences from yard to yard, in all calcium, manganese and iron have been high.  They have varied from high to incredibly, no room left on the chart high.  So for me these are things to avoid in a balancer.

On the other side Zinc,Copper and Magnesium varied from low to very low.  

Iodine varied being high in one place but low in another.  Phosphorous varied too but was never high.

So even doing mineral balancing,  I feed the same minerals all year round but do make other changes.
		
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That's really interesting, but I guess what I still struggle with is that there is more grass in Spring/Summer, less in Winter, so even if the mineral content was technically the same, they just simply can't get as much of them as they cannot eat as much, unless you are very lucky and have enough land to be able to offer adequate grass all year round.

Sorry if I sound argumentative, I am not trying to be and I really do think mineral balancing is far better than simply buying cheap pre-mixes off the shelf, but I still have questions in my mind


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## Jackie JA Taylor (25 September 2013)

Pasha said:



			That's really interesting, but I guess what I still struggle with is that there is more grass in Spring/Summer, less in Winter, so even if the mineral content was technically the same, they just simply can't get as much of them as they cannot eat as much, unless you are very lucky and have enough land to be able to offer adequate grass all year round.
		
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If there is less grass, they should be eating more hay, so the problem is almost exactly the same.


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## criso (25 September 2013)

Jackie JA Taylor said:



			If there is less grass, they should be eating more hay, so the problem is almost exactly the same.
		
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Exactly - and if your hay/haylage is not from your own land/yard you get that analysed too and take that into account.


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## Pasha (25 September 2013)

criso said:



			Exactly - and if your hay/haylage is not from your own land/yard you get that analysed too and take that into account.
		
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Well that's kind of my point about there needing to be a difference between summer and winter, as unless you are producing your own hay and haylage then the source would be different and the mineral content different! Which of course is absolutely fine if you are sourcing individual minerals and making your own blend but not if you are buying a pre-mix?

Could go round and round in circles lol!


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## criso (25 September 2013)

Pasha said:



			Well that's kind of my point about there needing to be a difference between summer and winter, as unless you are producing your own hay and haylage then the source would be different and the mineral content different! Which of course is absolutely fine if you are sourcing individual minerals and making your own blend but not if you are buying a pre-mix?

Could go round and round in circles lol!
		
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Sorry I misunderstood you.  I thought you were saying that mineral content from a particular source would vary according to time of year.

But actually what it comes down to is if your forage comes from  various sources at different times of the year then even mineral balancing  becomes difficult.

With places like forageplus and progressive earth, they are providing an average but as they are looking at dozens of actual analyses they are using the info to define their formulations to provide an average.  They saw trends and reacted to this.
This differs from the commercial blends who provide the RDA of everything and don't allow for the fact that a large proportion of UK grazing and forage has the same high and low elements.

Of course this won't work for everyone and that is one of the reasons that people will come on here and rave about one product while someone else will say it didn't work at all for them.


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## Pasha (25 September 2013)

criso said:



			Sorry I misunderstood you.  I thought you were saying that mineral content from a particular source would vary according to time of year..
		
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Well yes I was kind of, unless you had the same amount of grass all year round or could supplement with hay or haylage from the same source... which I think we are all in agreement with 

It's because we are all so passionate about providing the best that we can for our horses that the feed indistry has grown so huge and there is so much choice! It is now a complete minefield!

Sorry OP for going off topic


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## lucymay9701 (25 September 2013)

Pasha

Sorry OP for going off topic :)[/QUOTE said:
			
		


			I'm finding it interesting reading about it all!  Don't think I realised how much info I would get when I started this post which has been really helpful 

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## criso (25 September 2013)

I'm lucky in that I am on a private yard and get hay from the farm across the road but lots of people have a variable hay source and can't do that. Previous yards have produced their own hay or haylage.

if you have a regular supplier then you can get that analyses but if you are buying a branded haylage it is often produced under licence by different farms so you won't know what you are getting from one week to the next.


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