# Schooling a young horse for dressage- How long?



## Winklepoker (23 August 2011)

Looking at young ones like CS and the like, how long are your schooling sessions and how frequent to achieve such amazing results in a short time scale? I have been taught to keep to 20-30 mins but in that time after warming up/cooling off, I feel I havent progress much.  Would be interested to hear your routines...


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## cob&onion (23 August 2011)

My baby has been backed for a short while, (a few weeks) we are only working on 1 schooling session per week, the rest hacking.  I school her for around 25/30 mins this includes warming up and cooling off.  I don't push her, just been working on transitions alot and bending exercises.  I can tell when she has had enough as she tires easily and also i keep an eye on her breathing.


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## ThePony (23 August 2011)

Progress will massively depend on your horses natural ability, work ethic, your experience and approach, and how this works with your horse. Those things will play a much bigger part in the speed of progress rather than adding an extra schooling session or having longer sessions.   I don't think you can consider CS 'standard'! PS obv has a good eye for a horse and has got a horse with a wonderful attitude and natural ability, add to that an experienced and able rider with tuition too and you have much more as a package than the usual!

My mare isn't keen on schooling as her attitude isn't really right for it and her confo doesn't help her out - but we stick with it as having her going correctly is more pleasant for us both and will increase her working life (rather than slopping along on her forehand which used to be her prefered way of going!). We school no more than twice a week, but for about 50mins-hr each time, obv including warm up and cool down - that takes more than 1/2 the schooling time.  Because of her feeling towards schooling, confo and general backwards way of thinking - after about 9 months of schooling and manners adjustment we are at the same place as some might expect a dressage bred 4 year old to be!  Without the flashy paces though!  Get a well put together horse, 'designed' for dressage and school little and often and you will wind up with a much more advanced horse. 

Our sessions always start with a long rein warm up, lots of flexion and lateral work in walk before adding in trot and starting to pick the reins up. At the moment we are working on our counter canter so we'll spend about 5 - 10 mins on exercises in that and then cool down. The actual 'schooling' bit I guess is very small, but it is hard for her so we reward the effort rather than bashing away until we get a big result. Works for her and we are getting there! The warm up and cool down exercises are also 'improving' so it is all good work in the bank, rather than just concentrating on the 'new stuff' bit of the session. 

So much depends on the attitude of your horse though, that and physical ability and fitness (inc mental fitness) - these will determine the length and frequency of your sessions.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (23 August 2011)

40mins approx, incl warm up/cool down. 3 or 4 times a week.

a lot IS down to the horses natural way of going-CS is uphill, balanced and laterally supple naturally, so 9/10th of the way there, and has a good trainable brain-he doesnt anticipate or get worked up, so i CAN practice things a few times in a row and not make him hot/tense.

i certainly never aimed to have him where he is (schooling PSG half way through 6yo year) and to even consider doing an advanced this year seems a bit heady, but he's very very bright and on the button.

ok so on a just backed 3yo then 20mins is more than enough, but even a green 4yo needs to do more like 30/35/40mins in order to stretch,then progress, then cool down.
as long as you arent hammering them round, that increase in duration wont harm them, and certainly by 6yo 40min-an hour would be normal.


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## Tr0uble (23 August 2011)

My 4 year old has low mileage even for his age because of my injury, but with my friend he is easily coping with an hour lesson (Inc long warm up and cool down time) but the day after he only gets maybe 20 mins to recap, longer than that and mentally it starts to show...not that he is naughty, but you can see him tire if he thinks he's shown you what he did the day before but keep asking for much more.


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## ecrozier (23 August 2011)

Mine is 5 and I tend to do around 30 mins maybe 40 in school, twice a week. Our school is quite small so I am careful how long I do - if we had a larger space/better surface I woul poss go in there more often.


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## Tempi (23 August 2011)

I read an article the other day where Carl Hester said he only works his horses 4 times a week the rest of the time they are on the walker/in a field.  But during those 4 days they get a 30minute hack, 10min warm up, then schooled then 10minute cool down so they work quite hard on their days they are working. 

Ive got a 3yr old and to be honest hes doing very little, i exercise him 2 maybe 3 times a week and its all varied work generally long reining in the arena followed by some jumping/poles on the lunge, or me riding him in the school in walk and trot, or riding him around our gallops.  I also take him for in hand walks round the lanes.  Im in no hurry with him though.  He will be off any work from end of September to end of February when he will come back into work ready for the YH classes.

At this point I will be schooling him twice a week (followed by a ride around our gallops), lunging once a week and hacking out once a week the rest of the time he will be off (he lives out aswell).  Schooling sessions will be around 30mins including warming up (cool off will be around the gallops).


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## TarrSteps (23 August 2011)

I'm always a bit surprised at the diminishing return of working horses often, as it's so against the "practice, practice, practice, if it doesn't hurt you're doing it wrong" ethos so many people are taught with horses.

Yes, you absolutely have to practice but, as they say, it's only perfect practice that makes perfect so just doing things over and over and over is actually more likely to send you down tangents than speed the pace of improvement.  

I find 4-5 days/week max for a young horse is optimum, although ideally I'll have some flexibility so the horse can, say, school two days in a row in order to test or consolidate something.  And some weeks the horse might do less, some weeks it might do more days in a row (say at a show) then have a bit more of a break.  But when they are working, they're working - I don't think there is any point in asking for something you're not prepared to follow through on.  It doesn't kill a young horse to sweat once and awhile, although if you're HAVING to that work hard every day then there's probably something wrong.

What really interests me is how often leaving a horse for a few days after an intense period can produce an improvement.  I swear they go away and think about it.


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## Tinks81 (23 August 2011)

my 3yo (just broken) is twice a week for 15/20 mins in teh school she is also lunged once and hacked once well walked around the farm 

the 4yo is schooled for 30 mins once a week then is hacked and sometimes before this is schooled for 10 mins


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## dressagecrazy (23 August 2011)

It really does depend on the horse for me, my current 4yo does around 4-5 days a week of schooling & hacking. Schooling wise we only do 20-30 mins, but it's always a productive session im very clear cut & he is progressing so fast even i have to remind myself he's 4yo.

We take him to my trainer twice a month over one long weekend normally a Friday lesson & a Sunday lesson.
On the saturday in between the lessons he has a rest day, my trainer always asks how he's gone on the Sat & i always say he hasnt he was in the field. It never seems to do him any harm & he comes out on the Sunday better for the rest as like Tarsteps has said he seems to think about what he's done the day before.

My trainer on the other hand likes to sit on the youngsters everyday, again only working them sometimes for 20 mins. I just dont feel the need to do this with my young boy i like him to have rest days.


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## Winklepoker (23 August 2011)

Thanks everyone for the input, my boy has just turned 6 and had quite a late start really, we are currently doing 3 days schooling 2 lungeing, 1 hack and a rest day.  He isnt keen on the old hacking and has a very trainable and relaxed attitude in the school.  1 of his 3 schooling sessions is pole work to break up the daily grind  but while he is coming on a treat and responding well with help of 2 training sessions per month.  I just feel a little stuck day to day on the progression factor.  Stepping back and comparing how he felt 4 months ago, there is a huge difference but day to day it is hard to see progression which I think has a lot to do with a lack of focus on teaching 1 new thing at a time.  How do you all list progression? If you have w,t and canter - on and back in each and basic lateral (yeild, s-in in walk and trot) where would you go next?


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## ecrozier (23 August 2011)

That's kind of where mine is now winklepoker - needs more work in canter but s-in and leg yield established in walk and trot, my next thing to work on is improving his canter, using walk to canter and also canter to walk. Also want to establish mediums over next couple of months.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (23 August 2011)

rein back

walk-canter-walk

shoulder in in trot

use the shoulder in to medium trot to help that

big walk P's.

counter canter.


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## ecrozier (23 August 2011)

That's interesting thanks PS, just started rein back, he does s-in in trot, will use that to work on medium trot, walk canter walk is next thing on list, and he already does a fairly passable (large!) attempt at walk pirouettes so sounds like we are following about the right path.


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## flashmans (23 August 2011)

My four year old gets ridden 3 or 4 times a week, for about 20-30 mins with lots of breaks/stretches. Possibly going for a pootle down the road. We also have a one hour lesson (quite intense) once a fortnight. She copes with this fine.


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## Pachamama (23 August 2011)

Winklepoker said:



			Looking at young ones like CS and the like, how long are your schooling sessions and how frequent to achieve such amazing results in a short time scale? I have been taught to keep to 20-30 mins but in that time after warming up/cooling off, I feel I havent progress much.  Would be interested to hear your routines...
		
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I'm rather concerned (and I don't mean the OP in particular) by the haste people seem to have to be doing as much as possible in as short a timescale as possible. I read all the time about so and so doing so well at such and such a level, but their horse is having a meltdown before even getting in the ring and more often than not the results are only average, so WHAT is the point? So you can say you're competing at such and such a level? It's all very well to say that SJers and eventers are more at risk of injury than dressage horses, but what about their mental well-being? I've so often had to work with horses that have been 'overcooked' by riders determined to get the most out of them. Really gets up my nose.


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## maestro (23 August 2011)

Its all about feel and no horse is the same, so the short answer is properly work 3-4 times a week but very often if the work is good no more than 20 mins discounting warm up and cool down.  The secret is not to be stuck on a policy read the horse and if you are not in the right frame go and play.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 August 2011)

"I read all the time about so and so doing so well at such and such a level, but their horse is having a meltdown before even getting in the ring and more often than not the results are only average, so WHAT is the point? So you can say you're competing at such and such a level? "

paranoia alert-aimed at me?????


yes CS is sharp in the warm up, nothing to do with anything other than being an ex racer who hasnt quite got over it yet.plenty of horses are daft for 10/15mins when you get on at a show, mine is never the only one looping the loop!!!!
his regionals results were distinctly average due to tiredness (my fault i admit), but prior to that i dont think several 70% at elem, mid 60's at medium, and a first adv med score of 61 is average at all.
he can be quirky, but thats why he was cheap! and i dont mind quirky in the warm up/lessons if quirky goes in and wins most of the time!!!!
believe me when i say the horse is being actively held back training wise but is more than capable of the level he competes at. i *could* sat at elem all year and get 70% every time, but thats pot hunting and ive no desire to keep doing it. im aiming for GP, so it would also be pointless.


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## Pachamama (24 August 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			"I read all the time about so and so doing so well at such and such a level, but their horse is having a meltdown before even getting in the ring and more often than not the results are only average, so WHAT is the point? So you can say you're competing at such and such a level? "

paranoia alert-aimed at me?????
		
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Erm do I know you?




			yes CS is sharp in the warm up, nothing to do with anything other than being an ex racer who hasnt quite got over it yet.plenty of horses are daft for 10/15mins when you get on at a show, mine is never the only one looping the loop!!!!
his regionals results were distinctly average due to tiredness (my fault i admit), but prior to that i dont think several 70% at elem, mid 60's at medium, and a first adv med score of 61 is average at all.
he can be quirky, but thats why he was cheap! and i dont mind quirky in the warm up/lessons if quirky goes in and wins most of the time!!!!
believe me when i say the horse is being actively held back training wise but is more than capable of the level he competes at. i *could* sat at elem all year and get 70% every time, but thats pot hunting and ive no desire to keep doing it. im aiming for GP, so it would also be pointless.
		
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Right, well, since you mention it, if your horse hasn't got over being an ex-racer, then doesn't he deserve more time to get over it? You were aware he had issues and was quirky so in the interests of the horse would you not have factored this into your training and goals?  You are aiming for GP with a horse who still has obvious baggage from his previous job... you can still DO GP, but take longer about it so he can adapt to the stresses of competition. You seem to be striving for _your_ personal goal regardless of your horse. I just don't get the haste; I don't see how this benefits either you or him in the long run.


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## BeckyCandy (24 August 2011)

Pachamama said:



			Erm do I know you?


Right, well, since you mention it, if your horse hasn't got over being an ex-racer, then doesn't he deserve more time to get over it? You were aware he had issues and was quirky so in the interests of the horse would you not have factored this into your training and goals?  You are aiming for GP with a horse who still has obvious baggage from his previous job... you can still DO GP, but take longer about it so he can adapt to the stresses of competition. You seem to be striving for _your_ personal goal regardless of your horse. I just don't get the haste; I don't see how this benefits either you or him in the long run.
		
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Completely disagree! My old horse was produced slowly but knew he's job he was sharp and abit loopy at a competition like CS and after the intial warm-up went in and always achieved very good results he competed from a 4yr old to a 15 yr old and didnt change. He done a bit of everything and had a good routine in hes life. I think if they havent got that fire in there belly they dont stand out and just look like a typical nag and CS uses he's quirkiness in a good way he always look fab from the pictures ive seen and using every muscles in hes body and is very switched on. I say good luck princess sparkle he is clearly thriving with you and as you say so what if hes a bit of a queen in the warm up for 10 mins better that than having to kick kick kick something thats died before its started!


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## Firewell (24 August 2011)

My horse can be explosive in the warm up for the initial 15/20 odd mins and once he gets on with his job he settles. I think competition horses know they are about to perform and get that adrenaline rush, being horses they often react in a flight response way to that.
I don't think that is always to do with rushing a horse, if it was then my old 26yr old horse who sat on someone landrover in excitement at one of his last shows was rushed for the best part of quarter of a century .

Some horses are rushed but that's not the case with PS and CS (have you seen her pics? 
Amazing!!).

I don't think schooling for 45 mins 3/4 times a week is that hard work as long as they have regular breaks. Mine is barely sweating after an hours work with our dressage trainer as he gets a 5 min walk on the buckle after every 10 mins of concentrated work.


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## SpottedCat (24 August 2011)

And let's not forget that a LOT of horses that know their job get extremely wound up in the warmup. I regularly bounce from the lorry to the dressage, and I have to 'manage' the XC start pretty carefully too - and I'd say it's pretty normal to see that out eventing. My horse is 11 and has got worse as he has got to know his job - my task is to sit quietly, get him in the start box at the right time and facing the right way, and be ready for him to explode out of it. Likewise it is pointless doing anything other than sitting out the way on the way to the dressage warmup. But he does the job in the ring, which means everything else is fine by me. I'm not sure why a decent dressage horse should be any different really - a great deal of horses know what's coming and act accordingly when they first hit the warmup - doesn't mean they are rushed as youngsters!


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## Pachamama (24 August 2011)

BeckyCandy said:



			Completely disagree! My old horse was produced slowly but knew he's job he was sharp and abit loopy at a competition like CS and after the intial warm-up went in and always achieved very good results he competed from a 4yr old to a 15 yr old and didnt change. He done a bit of everything and had a good routine in hes life. I think if they havent got that fire in there belly they dont stand out and just look like a typical nag and CS uses he's quirkiness in a good way he always look fab from the pictures ive seen and using every muscles in hes body and is very switched on. I say good luck princess sparkle he is clearly thriving with you and as you say so what if hes a bit of a queen in the warm up for 10 mins better that than having to kick kick kick something thats died before its started!
		
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Firstly I'd like to clarify that my first post was not about anyone on the forum. It was drawn from personal experience and I don't think I said anything that outrageous; Lots of horses ARE produced and pushed FAR too young and suffer for it mentally was well as physically; just look on Project Horses any day of the week.
Princess Sparkle chose to assume my post was about her. Initially baffling, but on reading her response, less so. But still mistaken.
My SECOND post WAS about her, and it was based on her own comments about her horse. As an ex racer he would've been backed and in work very young, FAR younger than most other horses. It is common knowledge that a lot of ex racers carry issues from their racing days WELL into later life. I'm very aware that some horses never settle very well into competitive life and are always hot in the warm up, but that's not what I was talking about. I suggested, and I don't think I said anything very barmy, that given his early start in working life, Princess Sparkle's horse might benefit from a slower pace up the grades. He may well never settle, but why shouldn't he be given a chance and what's the hurry? He's 6 years old!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 August 2011)

the warm up for an elem is no different to the warm up for an adv medium though...................if i stuck at the same level for 5 years i doubt it would make any difference to him walking in to the warm up on two legs!!!!

can you explain exactly HOW you would train him not to be sharp for 15mins?


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## Nocturnal (25 August 2011)

Pachamama said:



			Firstly I'd like to clarify that my first post was not about anyone on the forum. It was drawn from personal experience and I don't think I said anything that outrageous; Lots of horses ARE produced and pushed FAR too young and suffer for it mentally was well as physically; just look on Project Horses any day of the week.
Princess Sparkle chose to assume my post was about her. Initially baffling, but on reading her response, less so. But still mistaken.
My SECOND post WAS about her, and it was based on her own comments about her horse. As an ex racer he would've been backed and in work very young, FAR younger than most other horses. It is common knowledge that a lot of ex racers carry issues from their racing days WELL into later life. I'm very aware that some horses never settle very well into competitive life and are always hot in the warm up, but that's not what I was talking about. I suggested, and I don't think I said anything very barmy, that given his early start in working life, Princess Sparkle's horse might benefit from a slower pace up the grades. He may well never settle, but why shouldn't he be given a chance and what's the hurry? He's 6 years old!
		
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From everything I've read it seems clear that PS's horse thrives on the work he's doing, he is not being pushed. Sharpness in the warm up is VERY common, especially among ex racers (I have one, and yes he's sharp in the warm up). The only way for them to get over it, is to do it. And the fact that CS is performing in the ring more and more as he does at home suggests that he's much happier at a comp than many horses.

That's my take on it anyway


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## Winklepoker (25 August 2011)

The only reason I would agree with the negative comments is out of Jealousy and Bitterness


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 August 2011)

thank you for the support  sorry this has become a bit of a ps/cs thread


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## mystiandsunny (25 August 2011)

Before this becomes a heated discussion about pushing and youngsters, it would be well for all of us to remember that everyone has their own views on riding/training, and that the proof is ultimately in the long-term results.  There are quite a few horses on this forum doing very well - not all post as much as one or two, but they are here.  Some are being brought on more slowly than others, and the approach for each one both in management and training differs.  In the long-term, only time will tell.   

What I would say in response to the OP - is listen to your horse.  Play with different combinations of things and see how they respond.  Consider strength, mental attitude and interest.  Look at what you need to build and search out exercises that will do this - do they involve hill work, or lateral work, or de-spooking by hacking....?  Then try to address these while keeping the work varied - jumping is fun and can greatly improve the trot and canter, hacking is good for strength, lungeing for learning about circles...


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## Saratoga (25 August 2011)

Usually the evidence doesn't come out that a young horse has been pushed too far until further into their career when it all goes wrong. There are many young horses that look so promising, and get pushed, and then they drop off the radar and you never hear about them again. 

In response to the initial question, I echo mystiandsunny's last paragraph. Always work towards a happy healthy horse both in mind and in body.


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## Thistle (25 August 2011)

mystiandsunny said:



			Before this becomes a heated discussion about pushing and youngsters, it would be well for all of us to remember that everyone has their own views on riding/training, and that the proof is ultimately in the long-term results.  There are quite a few horses on this forum doing very well - not all post as much as one or two, but they are here.  Some are being brought on more slowly than others, and the approach for each one both in management and training differs.  In the long-term, only time will tell.   

What I would say in response to the OP - is listen to your horse.  Play with different combinations of things and see how they respond.  Consider strength, mental attitude and interest.  Look at what you need to build and search out exercises that will do this - do they involve hill work, or lateral work, or de-spooking by hacking....?  Then try to address these while keeping the work varied - jumping is fun and can greatly improve the trot and canter, hacking is good for strength, lungeing for learning about circles...
		
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What sensible advice.

I'm afraid I don't agree with pushing horses along too quickly. For me it's more about the whole package, I like to produce a sane sensible horse that can cope with questions asked of it without stressing.

With regards to some of the posts above about behaviour in the warm up, there is a huge difference between the warm ups at BE (usually a field with room to burn off excess energy without endangering the other competitors or frightening their horses) and BD where you often have to warm up in a 40x20 fenced arena with a number of other horses and nowhere to escape if another horse is having a meltdown.

When B used to compete a pony she often felt very scared when other bigger horses had a meltdown, it's not nice having another horses feet pass close to your head whilst you are trying to warm up and settle your own horse, in a fenced arena you can't necessarily get out of the way. Now she is on Hec at 16.3 it's not quite so intimidating. If you can't control the behaviour of your horse in a busy warm up then I question whether you should be in there at all.

One last thing, Pachamama is a fairly new poster we don't know anything about him/her yet some people are hurling insults! For all we know it could be Carl Hester!!!!

No wonder this board has a reputation for bitchiness and ganging up on Newbies.

Lecture over!


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## Nocturnal (25 August 2011)

I haven't seen a single insult?


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## Thistle (25 August 2011)

Winklepoker said:



			The only reason I would agree with the negative comments is out of Jealousy and Bitterness 

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Accusing a poster of jealousy and bitterness is fairly insulting and unecessary. Perhaps I'm just old fashioned!


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## Nocturnal (25 August 2011)

I must have missed that post. Still, I reckon I must have a thick skin, as that wouldn't rile me much


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## Saratoga (25 August 2011)

It does amuse me how those that don't agree with the crowd, or like to have a say in what they believe in, are very quickly labelled 'jealous and bitter'.


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## rowy (25 August 2011)

I backed my 4 year old in april and I school him twice a week for 2- 30 minutes. 
We start doing stretchy work and then do canter work (with a few min break walking round) and then work on suppling work in the trot towards the end when he is more relaxed. 
He also gets twice a week hacking for up to about 1 hour. 
He has come on a lot doing just this and is a lot more balanced now in trot and canter and his transitions have really come along and we are now working towards doing our first prelim 14th september. He will then get a break from competing over the winter and we will concentrate on his schooling and getting him up to novice level for next year and do a bit of jumping as well.


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## SpottedCat (25 August 2011)

Thistle said:



			With regards to some of the posts above about behaviour in the warm up, there is a huge difference between the warm ups at BE (usually a field with room to burn off excess energy without endangering the other competitors or frightening their horses) and BD where you often have to warm up in a 40x20 fenced arena with a number of other horses and nowhere to escape if another horse is having a meltdown.

When B used to compete a pony she often felt very scared when other bigger horses had a meltdown, it's not nice having another horses feet pass close to your head whilst you are trying to warm up and settle your own horse, in a fenced arena you can't necessarily get out of the way. Now she is on Hec at 16.3 it's not quite so intimidating. If you can't control the behaviour of your horse in a busy warm up then I question whether you should be in there at all.
		
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I hope I wasn't insulting - I wasn't intending to be! But the problem is, what if your horse literally only behaves like that when there is atmosphere? How can you desensitise them without going into a warmup? I know I can stand around on a loose rein in group lessons, clinics, schooling, at dressage shows etc - but add in the tannoy and the 'eventing' feeling and it's a whole different ball game. There is no way to desensitise a horse to that without going to a show and warming up and sitting it out. 

I do see your point about a fenced arena, but equally, in a 'field' this year I have been mown down twice by pros on youngsters which lost the plot - completely without warning, no time to do much except throw the reins at my horse and kick to get them out the way, and hope that said young horse stops before the string! Once I was bounced off, the other time the horse changed direction (and I started a mental countdown as to when the pro would hit the deck - they thankfully did not!). So I reckon it happens everywhere.


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## Pachamama (25 August 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			the warm up for an elem is no different to the warm up for an adv medium though...................if i stuck at the same level for 5 years i doubt it would make any difference to him walking in to the warm up on two legs!!!!

can you explain exactly HOW you would train him not to be sharp for 15mins?
		
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And are the demands of the test no different? How can the warm up for an easier test be the same as the harder one? 
I can see you're far too defensive to be able to take part in any useful exchange of opinions, so I shall withdraw from this particular discussion.

And if I could explain exactly HOW I would train your horse not to be sharp for 15mins I wouldn't be suggesting you take it slower, would I?


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## Pachamama (25 August 2011)

Winklepoker said:



			The only reason I would agree with the negative comments is out of Jealousy and Bitterness 

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"Hey there's someone that disagrees!! Quick, lets all accuse him/her of jealousy and bitterness!! That'll shut him/her up MUCH better than rational discussion"

Reputation for bitchiness eh?? Hmmm, wonder where that came from then.


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## Ginn (25 August 2011)

I read this a while ago and saved it as thought it was quite poignant

_"A few years ago I had the privilege to watch the great German master the late Reiner Klimke preparing his horses for an international competition at Goodwood. The work was simple, structured and straightforward - the priority being to take out any stress and to make the horse supple and obedient ready for the hard work to be done in the arena. What he did not do was practise piaffe, pirouettes, passage, changes or any of the Grand Prix movements. After the competition I had a chat with Herr Klimke and mentioned that I was surprised how little he had done with Ahlerich before going into the arena. His reply to my rather dumb question was:

*"If you can ride down the centre line, halt at X, proceed to the C marker, turn left or right and ride the corner and receive 10 marks for the movement your horse is ready for Grand Prix and you will certainly win."*

The message here is simple - if the basics have been trained and worked correctly, the advanced movements will be easy." (R Taylor)_

So even though the requirements of a test may be different, which will result from correct training, the warm up does not need to be, nor should it act as a training ground, and for a well trained horse more advanced test movements will not necessarily need to be practiced in a warm up.... 

Certainly food for thought!


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## caterpillar (25 August 2011)

Saratoga said:



			Usually the evidence doesn't come out that a young horse has been pushed too far until further into their career when it all goes wrong. There are many young horses that look so promising, and get pushed, and then they drop off the radar and you never hear about them again. 

In response to the initial question, I echo mystiandsunny's last paragraph. Always work towards a happy healthy horse both in mind and in body.
		
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Once again I find my self agreeing with you Saratoga!


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## Pachamama (25 August 2011)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			thank you for the support  sorry this has become a bit of a ps/cs thread 

Click to expand...

It wouldn't have done if you hadn't waded in assuming I was talking about _you_


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## wench (25 August 2011)

Depends on the horse...

When I was "schooling" my 3yo ex racer earlier on this year (before she had a break), it would have very easy to get carried away with her, as she was very balanced and keen to work, went nicely (wasnt in an outline, just going forwards nicely). I did try and limit sessions to 15 mins max once a week.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 August 2011)

the first 15mins of an elem warm up are EXACTLY the same as the first 15mins of an adv med warm up, and thats when he is sharp and can be silly. he rarely puts a toe out of line in a test, and when he does, its greeness/keeness rather than a meltdown. and he is allowed mistakes at his age. so again i repeat-the level of the test is not the issue, its walking in to a crowded warm up and learning to settle better/quicker, which only comes by doing it MORE.

at home, its mainly basics basics basics. tonight after stretching in w/t/c, he did some nice trot/walk/trot transitions, some rein back direct to trot, some walk/canter/walk and a bit of shoulder in.
because the basics ARE so well instilled and the above got him 100% through and off the leg, he was then able to do a serpentine with flying changes ONCE because he got it right that first time, and play with a bit of piaffe (as IMO he should be at 6, baby steps, no pressure, but learning it a little), probably asked for it twice on each rein, about 4 steps each time.

there is no drilling/repetition/pushing in this horses life.

he's a naturally talented horse, the basics are very correct, and thus i dont need to push for the higher level work, its bubbling just under the suface, as it should be 

i feel like i had to say that, to clear up the fact that he isnt doing the high level stuff day in day out, because there seems to be a myth that if a horse works to a higher than average level when young, that it MUST be being thrashed.not so.


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## amandaco2 (25 August 2011)

when i first started B off and K and P, they did about 25mins and alot of that was walking and trying to get them to stay relaxed
once they were ready mentally and physically the work increased as it needed really
now a year in B is doing about 40mins but alot of that is warm up and cool down (prob 20mins alt)
i also like to vary so sometimes i will walk them around the gallop to warm up and cool off to keep the walk naturally forward 
i like to train them whatever they find easy within reason. eg
with P she is extremely forward naturally and found everything easy- except being still. so she learnt alot more of the 'harder' stuff like her HP etc before she was able to do a truely decent halt or be calm and do a good walk without adding her own moves in! she would have learnt piaffe VERY easily from the word go BUT i didnt want her to as then the halting/ walk work would have been even harder.... so although i like to train them at what they find easy (eg K finds canter easier than the same work in trot so her lateral work was learnt at canter first) it depends to a certain extent on what it is they find easy... if its something that would make the other stuff harder to train, then i wont push that until later...
so i think it has to be done on each horses merits. some progress in certain things quicker than others.


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## TarrSteps (26 August 2011)

Avoiding like the plague the above detour . . .

It has been my education and and personal experience that it's also possible to go TOO slowly with a young horse, particularly a talented, quick learning one.  They are always learning and if they're not learning the right things then they're learning the wrong things!   And there are "learning windows", both physical and mental, which open and close at particular times so waiting to teach a horse something strenuous IN MODERATION WITH UNDERSTANDING is not necessarily the best for the horse in the long run.  Just like it's easier to learn a skill in childhood and that youthful physical exercise develops a strong, healthy adult body, young horses are resilient and adaptive in ways that they may not continue to be later.  This is not, of course, a license to go wild but it's not true that we have endless opportunities to optimise our horses' metal and physical development.

One example I can think of is flying changes.  (People are obsessed with them in North America because they are essential in our version of "showing" and a horse without them is all but useless for that job.)  There is very definitely a window where able horses learn them easily and if you let it open and close they will require much more drilling and may never do them as fluently.  So is this easier on the horse or harder?  A talented horse, educated at the right time, will take much less time and effort to perfect the movement.

I was at a clinic with Klaus Balkenhol and someone asked how and when he teaches piaffe.  He said he takes the young horses out at dinner time then stops them from hurrying home.  They (being naturally that way inclined, of course) do a few half steps, the rider applies the aids (even though the horse won't get the connection at this point) the horse get lots of praise and home to dinner.   Play with it a few times in different situations as the horse offers itself up then, when the real work starts, the horse already has an inkling of what is being asked and a good, relaxed feeling about it.     Off course this is a bit of humour but I thought the idea was essential to good horsemanship - encourage the horse into the activity when it is likely to offer it, praise it fully, make the quiet connection to the "asking" and, as much as possible, let it come organically.  Of course, he also said he has no use for draw reins or any other devices used to to control extravagant young horses because he has an endless supply of big, strong, farm boy apprentices! 

I think there is also a big difference between a horse bred and built for the job and one that's not naturally gifted.  This is not to say the latter horse might not come on but it will take a lot more work, with the commensurate risk of injury and wear and tear.  People might be surprised how little many young horses produced by good professionals do.  This is actually one of my "issues" with Young Horse classes - people seem to think they are developmental classes suitable for all but really they were developed as "talent spotting" classes for only the most able potential super stars.


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