# H Tobago



## cloppy (1 February 2012)

Congratulations to Kate and H Tobago on their great article in this months Horse Deals.  Tobago is certainly making his mark on the sprorts horse world.  Just to wish them every success, which couldn't happen to a nicer horse and owner.


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## eventrider23 (2 February 2012)

Very well deserved publicity for one of the loveliest stallion owners I know.  Cannot wait to have Venezia and Xena's foals born here...only a couple month's left to go till V's!


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## angrovestud (2 February 2012)

Very well done and so nice to see arab horses valued as sports horses you cant beat them in my opinion they are the bravest horse that ever walked the  earth they might be scared of something but as long as there rider remains calm they wll take most things on
The ultimate horse to add quaility


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## Meowy Catkin (2 February 2012)

Congratulations on the article.


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## SusieT (2 February 2012)

I may be missing something-but you can hardly promote an unridden horse to be valued as a sports horse stallion really..


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## volatis (2 February 2012)

SusieT, apart from doing their performance test, plenty of stallions here in Germany used to just be used for breeding and never for sport. Thats a more recent trend. Yet it didnt stop them siring top sport horses. Not saying this applies in every case but also some top ridden horses dont make the grade in the breeding shed.

I really want to see this article, apparently there is a photo of V in it!


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## magic104 (2 February 2012)

SusieT said:



			I may be missing something-but you can hardly promote an unridden horse to be valued as a sports horse stallion really..
		
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I have lost count the amount of mares that never competed but produced offspring that did.  There are also stallions that have never done so either (due to injury or owner not being able to afford to) who have had sucessful offspring as well.  Tobago happens to be a stallion a friend is interested in & has been impressed by his offspring so the reason for her interest.  If he is lucky enough to get the right owners for his offspring he could prove to be very sucessful.  The arab has been used a lot to improve on other breeds even when they were not evented, show jumped or seen appearing in the dressage arena themselves.  So yes you can promote an unridden stallion is his offspring are doing the necessary.


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## SusieT (2 February 2012)

Yes- if the offspring are doing the necessary you can promote him. Irresponsible in the first place to breed unridden stock-no proof of soundness or performance (regardless of what has been done in the past). this particular stallions progeny are only a few years old I think? So a gambling waiting game really at this point. He is pretty, of course.


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## magic104 (2 February 2012)

SusieT said:



			Yes- if the offspring are doing the necessary you can promote him. Irresponsible in the first place to breed unridden stock-no proof of soundness or performance (regardless of what has been done in the past). this particular stallions progeny are only a few years old I think? So a gambling waiting game really at this point. He is pretty, of course.
		
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Well thats the bugbare with arabs, too much showing & not enough doing, yet they can.  Years ago I used an AA who had raced, hunted & HT'd but in those days it was the exception not the rule for a stallion to compete.  Thankfully that has changed, but how do you know Tobago is not ridden?


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## cloppy (2 February 2012)

Sacha if you look on horsebreeders forum, kate has put up a copy of the article.


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## Meowy Catkin (2 February 2012)

I'm sure that Kate posted a while ago on the Fugly forum (FISH) that he had done some XC schooling.

ETA.
http://fhotd64476.yuku.com/topic/17641/Little-Tobago-training-update


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## mellissa (2 February 2012)

Well I have to say that Arabs, well more so french Anglo Arabs have been used extensively in showjumping- particularly selle francais breeding.  My lifetime horse's grandfather was AA so I with Arab somewhere.  Boy if I could bottle him I would have!

People forget that the backbone of SF - in turn mine was BWP, was French Anglos. The Arab is hidden in there somewhere further back.  Whilst it is not a close generation I would choose, as the showjumping French anglos are not so prolific nowadays, it is certainly a cross I would be very interested in in cementing in a modern day pedigree


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## eventrider23 (2 February 2012)

SusieT - surely in order to get the offspring that may prove his worth as a sports horse sire he first has to be bred to produce sports horse foals????  His eldest are only now rising 4 but all the foals he has had...pure and part bred and including sports horse types...have been stamped very strongly and complimented in all the desired ways.  There are many stallions (too many to list) and certainly many mares that are top sports horse producers and have never competed at all - Tobago was injured and so will resume when they deem him OK to continue.  So on that front I cannot fathom how you can say it is irresponsible to breed from unridden stock.  Would you say that of the stallion Stormhill Miller...sire of 4 star eventer Stormhill Michael...as he was never broken in whatsoever? At the end of the day all breeding is a gamble and you could use the most renowned and famous stallion in the world and get a dud...there is no sure fire way to plan these things and the use of Arabs as has already been said, has been used to great success in sports horse breeding...not only as an improver in WB breeds but just look at likes of Tamarillo.  At the end of the day yes the proof remains to be seen but as a young sire with only his first few crops around and all of those having been successful at whatever they have done and several stallion sons coming up in the pure bred side of things then I think it is rash to negate him now before he has had a chance.  Breeders of decent quality mares are using him (yes myself included) and so it is a chance we have taken with the view to not necessarily breeding the ideal foal....but maybe, as is done on the continent and throughout the Trakehner breed especially, then a next step on foal which can then if good enough be crossed back to more traditional WB breeding and thus use the arab qualities to improve the outcome.  So yes in this way and the fact that sports horse breeders are using him with this in mind then yes he has captured the use of a lot of sports horses in comparison to others and as such is doing great things to promote his own breed.


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## pintoarabian (3 February 2012)

Arabs are, indeed, the great improvers. The lead article in the January edition of Horse Breeders Magazine gives more of an insight into the breed. Google is your friend if you wish to read it.


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## Hollycatt (3 February 2012)

I live in Hungary and shagya arabs are wonderful.  Often about the 16 hands mark which is useful if you are tall. I know smaller arabs carry weight well and often take up the leg but personally I do like something about 16hh or taller.  Shagyas in particular have been used in warmblood breeding and I think if I wanted to introduce arab for an upper level sportshorse I would lean towards a shagya rather than an in hand show horse. In most warmblood studbooks mares and stallions have to be approved anyway so the choice of arab blood is very limited.

I have always loved seeing posts on H Tobago.  I have never seen a foal pic I have disliked and that is from a variety of mares. I have seen few in real life but what I saw I liked. Any thread I see on him I look as I find him gorgeous (and I am a die hard warmblood fan). They all seem to have a lot of presence and of course beauty. As with any stallion time will tell as regards his stock but it would appear they will do what it says on the tin.  Will they compete GP show jumping or dressage?  No. Endurance, eventing or showing at a high level - with the right mare and rider why not? Will they be good at a slightly lower level in any discipline and give their owners immense pleasure - I would suspect the answer would be a definate yes.


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## eventrider23 (3 February 2012)

Well said Hollycatt. And as a step to the next generation breed as I said before I think he will also do the job - as I believe it says in the article, Arab influence is usually about 3 generations back and so these foals may not necessarily prove him today but their foals might!   Also, if you look back at his pedigree it is flush with performance Arabs including top Arab racers and so as a cross for eventing stock he could well produce the goods.  Time will tell.


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## ihatework (3 February 2012)

It does make me chuckle how everyone runs to defend a forum member.
FWIW I think debate is healthy and can be done without slating a stallion.

H Tobago, from what I have seen, really stamps stock and adds quality. I also like to see a bit of arab blood in a sportshorse, although I would personally rather just 1/4 or 1/8 th.

H Tobago's owner is free to market the horse in which ever way she feels best, and I don't necessarily think that is being irresponsible. The stallion does have to cover some mares and have time for the offspring to be ridden under saddle!!!!! 

That said I would love to see this stallion under saddle performing, and tbh it all seems a bit quiet on this front. It is always an extra string to a stallions bow to be able to demonstrate rideability and performance. Will he be ridden at Addington does anyone know?


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## eventrider23 (3 February 2012)

Ihatework - as was said above I think and is in article, he had a major injury to his sternum when he was getting ready for his grading/performance test and as yet is unable to be ridden as obviously an injury to that area affects the girth.  So he will be in hand at Addington but I believe the plan is to gradually get him back under saddle in order for him to get out ridden but that obviously depends on his sternum as I cannot imagine many horses would cope with a girth done up if they had any residual pain in that area.


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## ihatework (3 February 2012)

Any idea how he injured his sternum?

Fingers crossed it heals well and that at somepoint in the future he and/or his offspring strut their stuff under saddle.


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## eventrider23 (3 February 2012)

I believe (could be wrong) but I think it was done when being collected...he came down with his chest on the dummy a bit hard and hurt himself and so it was right on the area across where the girth goes.  I don't know how severe it was but can imagine if the hit themselves hard enough that it would be possible to crack the sternum and something like that would take ages to heal....especially with animals from the memory alone.  I have seen pictures of one of his eldest under saddle already and he looks superb.


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## Maesfen (3 February 2012)

ihatework said:



			That said I would love to see this stallion under saddle performing, and tbh it all seems a bit quiet on this front. It is always an extra string to a stallions bow to be able to demonstrate rideability and performance. Will he be ridden at Addington does anyone know?
		
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I think we all would but don't forget that in the past many successful eventers (including Badminton winners) and jumpers have been sired by horses that haven't done it themselves so don't count that against him.  It's a relatively new phenomenon for stallions to actually be out there doing the job themselves that their youngsters are designed for; I suppose it makes it a bit easier for some or takes the guesswork out but many by competing stallions don't make the grade themselves, it's not a foregone conclusion that you will breed a star just by using a stallion that gets out competing.

BTW, I believe H Tobago was injured which curtailed his ridden career for the time being but it's hoped he'll be back in the future; until then his youngsters will have to do the talking for him.

And yes, I'm bias as I have a Sportabago in the oven.


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## htobago (3 February 2012)

Cloppy what a very sweet thought to post about this - thank you!

And thank you eventrider and others for the supportive comments. And those who expressed understandable concerns. Debate is good!

Tobago has been started under saddle, and was showing great promise and enthusiasm when his ridden training was unfortunately halted early by a freak accident which damaged his sternum. This is made clear in the HD feature and elsewhere. We hope very much that he will be able to resume training at some stage.

Meanwhile, his oldest foals are rising 4 and currently being backed, all proving to be sweet, trainable and very quick learners. But of course it is much too early for them to have any performance records under saddle. Also they are almost all pure-bred Arabs, not foals out of sport-horse mares.

It is more recently that Tobago has been attracting serious sport-horse breeders, so as with any newcomer, it will be a while before these offspring prove themselves under saddle. Breeders have been impressed by his conformation, movement, beauty and the way he stamps his stock. Plus national top-scoring Futurity offspring brought him more attention recently. His many national/international in-hand champions are perhaps less relevant to sport-horse breeders, but he is certainly more than proven as a show sire.

But of course he is still very much a 'gamble' as a potential sport-horse sire - more so than most new stallions as he is a pure-bred Arab and the F1 cross is not usually 'commercial'. That is why I am extremely grateful to the sport-horse breeders who are using him. If an infusion of Arab blood is a good thing, which many here seem to agree it is, then some brave breeders have to do the F1 cross!


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## Scarlett (3 February 2012)

Does anyone actually have pictures of his youngstock under saddle? Especially ones bred for 'sport'?

I'm genuinely curious as I hear him being recommended as a sports horse stallion but struggle to find anything to explain why. I understand that there are many 'unproven' stallions out there to use but many of the ones mentioned come from years of wb/ISH/sports horse breeding so at least have the genetics to back them up as performance stallions. What does H Tobago have? And what does he have compared to other Arab stallions when he himself in unproven? (Other than the fact he is well known through this forum?  ) Does he have relations performing at a level that would suggest he too could perform at?

The Arab seems to be a much misunderstood breed, I've read threads on here and in CR where many have dismissed the use of a full Arab to produce competative horses - although most admit that a 1/4 or and 1/8 is a good dose - so what makes H Tobago, as a stallion without a proven ridden record, good enough to use a sire? Why would/did you use him and what do you expect/see him bring to his youngstock?

** Disclaimer - I'm am not, in the slightest bit, trying to cause an argument. I plan to breed from my mare in the next 2 years and whilst researching stallions I have been told umpteen times to go for a proven performer thus I am merely curious why many knowlegable breeders on here have choosen this stallion in his current situation. **


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## eventrider23 (3 February 2012)

Scarlett said:



			Does anyone actually have pictures of his youngstock under saddle? Especially ones bred for 'sport'?

I'm genuinely curious as I hear him being recommended as a sports horse stallion but struggle to find anything to explain why. I understand that there are many 'unproven' stallions out there to use but many of the ones mentioned come from years of wb/ISH/sports horse breeding so at least have the genetics to back them up as performance stallions. What does H Tobago have? And what does he have compared to other Arab stallions when he himself in unproven? (Other than the fact he is well known through this forum?  ) Does he have relations performing at a level that would suggest he too could perform at?

The Arab seems to be a much misunderstood breed, I've read threads on here and in CR where many have dismissed the use of a full Arab to produce competative horses - although most admit that a 1/4 or and 1/8 is a good dose - so what makes H Tobago, as a stallion without a proven ridden record, good enough to use a sire? Why would/did you use him and what do you expect/see him bring to his youngstock?

** Disclaimer - I'm am not, in the slightest bit, trying to cause an argument. I plan to breed from my mare in the next 2 years and whilst researching stallions I have been told umpteen times to go for a proven performer thus I am merely curious why many knowlegable breeders on here have choosen this stallion in his current situation. **
		
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If you have a read of the owner's response above you will see that his eldest (4 this year) were pretty much all Pure Arabs and so we will have to wait for his Part Breds to mature.  I believe there was a forum member with a PB by him that would be 4 this year - youngster was called Ayemkay Emae and was very successful as a baby in the show ring.  I don't know her whereabouts now but this was her: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10672986 and so clearly a proper F1 cross.  

I can only speak for myself using him on sports horse mares.  I have a WB mare in foal to him who is classically jumping bred however very much older fashioned lines.  In using him I am adding the blood and athleticism of the Arab which I will hopefully be able to then add into future generations crossing back to more traditional breeding and as such use the Arab infusion to add the necessary speed and agility that is needed in modern jumping without losing that ability and movement inherent in her own breeding.  I remember seeing somewhere a while back that the opposite had been done with the WB stallion Legrande whose owner has crossed him onto their own Arabian mares to add some of the WB qualities to the breed.  

If you look at his pedigree yes of course this is a show Arab but his pedigree also descends from Russian Arab racehorses and so there is indeed a lot of strength, stamina and speed in there.  He himself has been ridden (before his injury) by a jockey who believed he should have been raced as had inherited these qualities and as such he can bring this to the fore as his progeny seem to be inheriting his qualities very strongly - you can even see this in the 2 Highland x foals he has had.  Thus added into breeding to say cross with TB or event breeding, his stamina and speed should hopefully prove an asset.  In jump breeding he can prove maybe not a perfect sire for the F1 generation but in a couple generations to come have been good enough as progenitor.  

Of course there are many other Arabs out there that could be just as good and indeed if people are using them then good on them.  The problem is there are not a lot of Arabs right in the public eye and so the likelihood is that many have been passed over when they could have contributed to the breeds.  The fact is that Tobago is not being passed over and people are willing to take the gamble on seeing whether he is good enough as an improver in sport as he has been in breeding pure breds and in the sporty type youngsters he has so far had.  As a horse from the show ring he could not be more proven and yes some might say well showing is nothing special as a means of proving himself but in fact it means that he has proven himself conformationally both statically and dynamically to consistently win again and again - along with his progeny pure and PB that have been shown to date and so when you consider that all of these consistent positive assessments in the ring are easily the equivalent of a grading panel what with his assessment in front of well respected individuals from abroad as well as the UK.


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## Scarlett (3 February 2012)

eventrider23 said:



			If you have a read of the owner's response above you will see that his eldest (4 this year) were pretty much all Pure Arabs and so we will have to wait for his Part Breds to mature.  I believe there was a forum member with a PB by him that would be 4 this year - youngster was called Ayemkay Emae and was very successful as a baby in the show ring.  I don't know her whereabouts now but this was her: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10672986 and so clearly a proper F1 cross.  

I can only speak for myself using him on sports horse mares.  I have a WB mare in foal to him who is classically jumping bred however very much older fashioned lines.  In using him I am adding the blood and athleticism of the Arab which I will hopefully be able to then add into future generations crossing back to more traditional breeding and as such use the Arab infusion to add the necessary speed and agility that is needed in modern jumping without losing that ability and movement inherent in her own breeding.  I remember seeing somewhere a while back that the opposite had been done with the WB stallion Legrande whose owner has crossed him onto their own Arabian mares to add some of the WB qualities to the breed.  

If you look at his pedigree yes of course this is a show Arab but his pedigree also descends from Russian Arab racehorses and so there is indeed a lot of strength, stamina and speed in there.  He himself has been ridden (before his injury) by a jockey who believed he should have been raced as had inherited these qualities and as such he can bring this to the fore as his progeny seem to be inheriting his qualities very strongly - you can even see this in the 2 Highland x foals he has had.  Thus added into breeding to say cross with TB or event breeding, his stamina and speed should hopefully prove an asset.  In jump breeding he can prove maybe not a perfect sire for the F1 generation but in a couple generations to come have been good enough as progenitor.  

Of course there are many other Arabs out there that could be just as good and indeed if people are using them then good on them.  The problem is there are not a lot of Arabs right in the public eye and so the likelihood is that many have been passed over when they could have contributed to the breeds.  The fact is that Tobago is not being passed over and people are willing to take the gamble on seeing whether he is good enough as an improver in sport as he has been in breeding pure breds and in the sporty type youngsters he has so far had.  As a horse from the show ring he could not be more proven and yes some might say well showing is nothing special as a means of proving himself but in fact it means that he has proven himself conformationally both statically and dynamically to consistently win again and again - along with his progeny pure and PB that have been shown to date and so when you consider that all of these consistent positive assessments in the ring are easily the equivalent of a grading panel what with his assessment in front of well respected individuals from abroad as well as the UK.
		
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Thanks for the reply  I completely understand your viewpoint, and will be interested to see your foal once it makes an appearance, Arab x WB does sound good!

Can I ask if you are breeding him with a view to producing horses for a specific discipline? If sj or xc then did you see him jump before breeding? An admittedly quick Google  search shows me no pictures of H Tobago under saddle, never mind jumping or even videos of him loose/ridden/jumping, something I would expect to be essential in a sports stallion. I understand he hasnt done a lot under saddle and is currently injured but he has been ridden, and jumped, in the past from what I have read and thus I would expect to see something to try and prove his credentials? Or when using a quality, proven mare does it matter less?

Thanks again.


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## eventrider23 (3 February 2012)

I have seen quite a lot of video of him moving in all paces as well as under saddle (home videos of when he was just broken) and so what I saw impressed me enough in him himself however  even then I still waited to not only see more of his progeny as they developed but also to ensure I had the correct mares for what i was aiming for.  The WB mare this year  is SJ bred through and through however really moves and with the correct cross breeding could easily produce an eventer as much as continue with her strength which is show jumping, having Olympic/International jumpers on ever line of her pedigree.  I have another mare going to him this year who is a fully graded Trakehner and herself has Arab back in the 3rd generation back but herself needs something more compact and athletic as is prone to being lazy. She has already produced a performance test champion herself and is a proven broodmare.    I feel he will add that extra 'spark' she is lacking in herself as well as refine her slightly and hopefully compliment her weaknesses...again though we have to see.


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## Scarlett (3 February 2012)

eventrider23 said:



			I have seen quite a lot of video of him moving in all paces as well as under saddle (home videos of when he was just broken) and so what I saw impressed me enough in him himself however  even then I still waited to not only see more of his progeny as they developed but also to ensure I had the correct mares for what i was aiming for.  The WB mare this year  is SJ bred through and through however really moves and with the correct cross breeding could easily produce an eventer as much as continue with her strength which is show jumping, having Olympic/International jumpers on ever line of her pedigree.  I have another mare going to him this year who is a fully graded Trakehner and herself has Arab back in the 3rd generation back but herself needs something more compact and athletic as is prone to being lazy. She has already produced a performance test champion herself and is a proven broodmare.    I feel he will add that extra 'spark' she is lacking in herself as well as refine her slightly and hopefully compliment her weaknesses...again though we have to see.
		
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Very interesting - thank you!


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## angrovestud (3 February 2012)

I thought you might like to see this when I worked for his rider MW and his then wife, This horse was at the height of his fame his grooms and I would ride out together after I had finished work he is such a great example of what Arabs bring to the Party some of us are old enough to have some knowledge of how things got to where they are Today

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/didi4


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## Amymay (3 February 2012)

Scarlett said:



			I would expect to be essential in a sports stallion.
		
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He's not though, is he?


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## Maesfen (3 February 2012)

Scarlett said:



			** Disclaimer - I'm am not, in the slightest bit, trying to cause an argument. I plan to breed from my mare in the next 2 years and whilst researching stallions I have been told umpteen times to go for a proven performer thus I am merely curious why many knowlegable breeders on here have choosen this stallion in his current situation. **
		
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This amuses me as one being used to the old HIS stallions that have time without number (though I'm sure someone could work it out) have come up as sires of the winners of most top class competitions in this country and abroad whether that be eventing or show jumping.  
Most of those stallions were in the main, not very successful racehorses but they did have excellent conformation and vetting results.  
If you went to see a stallion back then, you'd get it trotted up for you in hand but it was extremely unlikely you'd ever see it ridden (unless you were lucky enough to have seen it racing) and you'd never think to ask to see it ridden, it just wasn't done back then.
There's a stallion I know (and have used) that's not even broken but he's produced endless amounts of Grade A's and advanced eventers and dressage horses.  Are you saying he shouldn't be used because you can't see him ridden?

ETA, he's not graded either.........


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## Amymay (3 February 2012)

This amuses me as one being used to the old HIS stallions that have time without number (though I'm sure someone could work it out) have come up as sires of the winners of most top class competitions in this country and abroad whether that be eventing or show jumping.
		
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I was thinking the exact same thing as I read through this post.


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## Maesfen (3 February 2012)

Lol.

To this end I think some youngsters can be a right disappointment in that they don't achieve the same level of accomplishment that their parents do - which on paper makes the 'need' to see the stallion ridden/performing debatable.


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## htobago (3 February 2012)

Just wanted to say that I think Scarlett's queries are fair enough - it's not unreasonable to be a bit surprised that so many experienced sport-horse breeders are using a show Arab who is unproven under saddle, however popular he may be as a sire of Arab show champions.

I have been surprised myself at the amount of interest in him, and I am his proud and biased owner! 

But I think these breeders explain their reasons very eloquently - both here and along with others quoted in the HD article, which I'd be happy to PM to anyone who would like to read it.


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## htobago (3 February 2012)

ihatework said:



			Any idea how he injured his sternum?

Fingers crossed it heals well and that at somepoint in the future he and/or his offspring strut their stuff under saddle.
		
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So sorry - I missed this post!

The sternum injury we think was actually from a freak stable accident, in which he also damaged his hock very badly - but eventrider is right that it was then possibly exacerbated by over-enthusiastic mounting of the dummy. 

He has subsequently had no problems collecting, but the saddle/girth clearly caused him severe pain. The vets say that sternum injuries are among the hardest to diagnose accurately, and almost impossible to treat, except with time and patience. So we are waiting patiently for this to heal, and hope that his ridden training will resume at some stage.

If not, his offspring will be out representing him under saddle in the not-too-distant future - including for example the two 2011 national BEF Futurity winners (top endurance 2yo and top endurance 3yo, who were also the highest and second-highest scoring youngsters across *all *disciplines at their Futurities).


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## Scarlett (3 February 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Are you saying he shouldn't be used because you can't see him ridden?
		
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Absolutely not! I'm asking why serious, experienced breeders like yourself and the others on this board are using him in particular to produce a certain 'type' of foal. With other stallions it's easier to see the reasons why as there are pictures/videos/comp records/complete websites dedicated to showing the stallion off, but not so much with Tobago. I have no bias towards him either way, I am merely curious and have some time on my hands today to ask questions. eventrider23 has been most generous with her time to answer my genuine questions and for that I am appreciative.

Thats all, honest!


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## SusieT (3 February 2012)

For the record I think it is irresponsible to breed any animal without a soundness record for the parents-so yes I would only breed using ridden stock. A bit of a thick headed approach and not a very practical one to long term soundness otherwise. Regardless of the winners from that approach.


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## Cherrygarden (3 February 2012)

There wouldn't be a right lot of horses anywhere though if everyone took that approach SuzieT. Things may have changed and be changing but still although work under saddle and continued ability to do so with four legs and a brain is a useful indicator of this there are still an awful lot of horses that are lucky to remain sound for 5 minutes when you look at the way they are ridden, housed, fed, shod or not and many other factors, this probably doesn't give any indication whatsoever that any horses bred from them will also be inherently unsound if they are better managed. Unsoundness under saddle that is exacerbated by bad conformation is a reliable indicator of a horse to avoid breeding from but just to write a horse off because it doesn't compete under saddle is daft, most of the continental brood mare herd ought not be bred from in that case as they have only worked as much as HTobago if not less.


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## Seahorse (3 February 2012)

I love H Tobago and have always been very interested in his offspring. I own a warmblood x Arab gelding myself and it would be lovely to see more of these about. 
My horse's Sire was an Arab racehorse and his Dam was a showjumper, he is a dressage horse working at medium level.


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## SusieT (3 February 2012)

That might not be a bad thing that there wouldn't be a right lot of horses out there..It would just mean those who bothered to get their 'conformationally' perfect horses out ridden/showing would get a reward for it. It's a strong opinion I hold-horses should not be breaking down aged 12+.


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## htobago (3 February 2012)

Hey, everyone has their own criteria and priorities - which is fine.

If anyone is looking for an Arab stallion proven under saddle, Marcus Aurelius is a really super boy. Very different type from Tobago - he's the more traditional Crabbet type that many people prefer. 

His exceptionally nice owner posts on here - as avonbrook.

So, there is something for everyone!


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## Jamana (3 February 2012)

http://www.kevinsparrow.co.uk/BSE2012_MARCUS_AUREL.aspx

Marcus Aurelius was at Hartbury, see pics above.
Another Arab stallion out eventing is evented by a 14yo and went to a stallion parade at Bramham last year I think. Called Templars Orchestral Pearl. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmB0kG4EMzk


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## EstherYoung (3 February 2012)

I have to say I do admire Tobago's PR machine   (and I don't mean that in a nasty way at all - I'll bet there are lots of stallion owners who wish that their boy had captured the imagination like Tobago has).

The frustrating thing for me is that this is the exact sort of PR that the arab horse society should be doing, but they're not. It shouldn't come as a great surprise that the arab is a great improver as a cross, even as a first cross. It shouldn't come as a great surprise that the arab is an athletic little critter. It shouldn't come as a great surprise that the arab can move well. It shouldn't come as a great surprise that arabs are a bit fast, like. 

If Tobago has got arabs back on the radar, that's a good thing. So to all those 'sports horse' breeders who have had their head turned by Tobago, don't be afraid to look a little wider too. No offence to the lovely Tobago, but there is a whole world of arabs out there, in all shapes and sizes. Many come from either racing or military lines and many have achieved high levels of performance themselves. The arab horse society may not do a particular great job of selling their achievements, or in championing the part bred, but achievements there most certainly are.

Many warmbloods are, after all, part bred arabs themselves  Traks in particular carry a lot of arab blood, so a cross to an arab or TB is just returning to the source.


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## pintoarabian (3 February 2012)

All of the stallions mentioned in this thread have a great deal to commend them and breeders who use them will not be disappointed. They are all pure breds but don't overlook the value of the high percentage part breds such as TP Starbuck, 87.5% Arabian, whose stock is now out there doing the business. His first foal is currently jumping BS, showing great scope, agility and speed. His firstborn filly, also now jumping BS, has just been awarded Arab Horse Society Premium Mare Status, based on her performance. That's just two of them and they've barely started their careers! PM me for pics/links.


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## cloppy (3 February 2012)

an example of an arab/trakehner foal.


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## magic104 (4 February 2012)

I dont think Arab blood in the breeding of a sports horse was in question but the use of an unproven stallion who happens to be an Arab.


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## EstherYoung (4 February 2012)

magic104 said:



			I dont think Arab blood in the breeding of a sports horse was in question but the use of an unproven stallion who happens to be an Arab.
		
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I think that is the crux of it. Why this arab? And I don't mean that as a criticism of Tobago at all. From Eventrider's post:



eventrider23 said:



			Of course there are many other Arabs out there that could be just as good and indeed if people are using them then good on them.  The problem is there are not a lot of Arabs right in the public eye and so the likelihood is that many have been passed over when they could have contributed to the breeds.  The fact is that Tobago is not being passed over and people are willing to take the gamble...
		
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Whether it is his owner's passion for her horse, whether it is his larger than life personality, whether it is the fact that he has become an internet phenomenon, but something has put this horse on the radar with people who wouldn't normally consider arabs.

Come on arab horse society - we need to get these other arabs and part breds out there so that they capture the imagination like Tobago has.


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## Cherrygarden (4 February 2012)

I have certainly been looking for a long time for arab, high percentage/partbred and anglo arab stallions so that if and when I have the right crosses to make with them I know where they are, I think at the moment I haven't the right mares possibly but one of the big things is price because the better stallions because of their showing careers often command prices in their own world that don't compute in the sports horse world so you have to be quite sure that if you use them, what you breed will show if it doesn't get what it needs to excel in its chosen sport. As for why H Tobago, I suspect people like me were looking, the arab influence in sports horse breeding is still well known and used, the Danes graded an arabian last year as an improver into their Warmblood stud book and I would think that when his first endurance foals and youngsters went through the Futurity and out in public in general it confirmed his usability. A little bit of being in the right place at the right time backed up by a package of movement, conformation and show record perhaps?
As far as soundness goes though and general toughness and ability to perform with grit and bravery(log crocodiles notwithstanding) there isn't really any question that arabs are one of the best places to go for those attributes plus injecting a little sparkle and quality. I think in general though breeders themselves will have to do the work for the society and really go all out to promote their stallions with sports potential.


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## Avonbrook (4 February 2012)

EstherYoung said:



			Whether it is his owner's passion for her horse, whether it is his larger than life personality, whether it is the fact that he has become an internet phenomenon, but something has put this horse on the radar with people who wouldn't normally consider arabs.

Come on arab horse society - we need to get these other arabs and part breds out there so that they capture the imagination like Tobago has.
		
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I truly think that the job that Tobago's owner has done in raising the profile of the use of arabian blood in sports horse breeding is to the benefit of us all.  Isn't it lovely that the discussion is beginning to move from "the use of arabian blood" to "the use of which particular arabian blood".  Wouldn't it be great if further down the line we are discussing particular attributes linked to particular dam  (arabian breeder's emphasis...) and sire lines in the same way as I see discussion going on with examples of TB's and various of the warmblood breeds.

Unfortunately imo the Arab Horse Society began to lose interest in promoting any attributes other than those desired for the halter ring about 30 years ago - concurrent with the arrival of big money interests in that arena.  So it has been down to the owners of performance pure/anglo/part bred arabian stallion owners to whistle into the wind on our own against what had become a rather anti-arab culture in this country.

The Arab Horse Society does have its premium performance scheme.  There are two methods for stallions to enter this scheme.  The first is a 2 stage process (although carried out on the same weekend) whereby the stallions have to pass the performance test organised by NaStA (National Stallion Association) which is open to all breeds and to mares as well as stallions and also an assessment by a panel of 3 Arab Horse Society listed judges.  The second is for stallions over 12 years of age who are not able, possibly through injury, to be included through the first route where a sufficient number of progeny are deemed by the sub-committee to have reached a sufficiently elite level of perfomance in their particular discipline.  Determined efforts are being made by a very few people on this sub-committee to buck the trend within the society and revive this scheme which had all but petered out - but it is an uphill battle, and largely unrecognised within as well as without the breed.  For instance the Society will not accept the term "graded" even for stallions which have passed the two legs of the first route of entry, which causes no end of problems for owners of stallions in the scheme.  

(For the sake of completeness, all stallions whose progeny will be acknowledged by the Arab Horse Society need to be licensed - which involves a basic veterinary assessment.)

It will come as no surprise that I prefer to use stallions who have proven their abilities and trainability under saddle - the arabian was after all prized as a ridden horse possessing supreme speed, stamina, soundness, courage and trainability above all else.  However, horses get injured.  It happens.  That is why I so fully support the use of the second route into the Premium Performance Scheme.  I have said to Tobago's owner that I would be hypocritical were I to criticise the use of Tobago by Sports Horse breeders on the grounds that he has no ridden performance record given that I am breeding some of my best part-breds from a mare who was diagnosed with a traumatic neck injury at the age of 4 such that she would never be safe to ride.  I await the ridden careers of Tobago's first progeny with an impatience second only to hers!

But it takes time (and rightly so imo because I hate to see young horses pushed too fast so that they break down in their teens, but that would be a different thread ).  One reason that Marcus Aurelius is out their flying his own flag is that he only has two progeny of riding age, one of whom spent the whole of last year recuperating from a field injury...  (The other belongs to my younger daughter and, despite being 15.3hh, is very much hers so that his performance achievements to date have been limited to what they can do together - ridiculous as they look!)  

Pintoarabian has some fantastic progeny from his, still young, stallions that are out there competing and winning consistently in affiliated showjumping classes.  Romarnic Ranger is another part-bred stallion - also in the Premium Performance scheme - who is out there competing successfully in affiliated dressage with his owner's daughter and whose first progeny are still young.  Persiflage - another premium performance scheme stallion, an eventer from the same breeders as Tamarillo - was also shown at Hartpury last weekend and may well have taken the award for the most fences jumped in the 5 minute time slot.  From the endurance world Chatanz and the late Imad (again both PPS stallions) leap out as older sires whose abilities as performers are coming through time and again.  From the racing world Sambist and Vadeer (again both in the scheme this time by the second route - their progeny did it for them, they didn't have to learn to go cross country at pre-novice height though for all I know they could ) leap straight to mind.  There are the tall and gorgeous endurance performing Bahrani's at Pearl Island, I coincidently had a brochure through from Shadwell of their fantastic arabian racing stallions this morning, Dervatiw Gwiddion is not only a successful (and again tall) show stallion but also in affiliated dressage, I know Plumbum is out there flying the arabian flag in dressage as I believe is Silvern Prince (supreme ridden arabian HOYS 2010 and reserve supreme 2011).  That incredibly successful ridden showhorse from a few years ago Toman is competing in dressage with his owner's daughter and I do believe he is also enjoying his jumping.

And there are more pure/anglo and part-bred stallions out there doing their thing.  All different sizes, types, bloodlines and attributes within the breed.  As with any breed, one stallion will not suit all mares but as Tobago's owner put it "there is something for everyone"

And as for why, couldn't put it better than Angrovestud did back on page 1!


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## angrovestud (4 February 2012)

Just here to say Thank you Avonbrook I wish you much success with your boy x


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## Maesfen (4 February 2012)

Excellent post AvonB, thank you

Mustn't forget too that Romarnic Ranger is the product of another AHS  Premium Sire, Fairlyn Gemini (one of my personal favourites!) who also passed the NASTA assessment.


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## Maesfen (4 February 2012)

SusieT said:



			That might not be a bad thing that there wouldn't be a right lot of horses out there..It would just mean those who bothered to get their 'conformationally' perfect horses out ridden/showing would get a reward for it. It's a strong opinion I hold-horses should not be breaking down aged 12+.
		
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Sorry, only just seen this.

Performance is a guide only and means diddly squat if the youngsters can't stay sound for the job from inherited weaknesses rather than from an injury alone.  You only have to look at how many imported WBs by/out of performance/graded parents don't stay sound for long.  It is not a foregone conclusion that because the parents have performed themselves that their youngsters will be able to, you only have to read a few threads on here to see that.

As to 'bothering', many stallion owners just do not have the time, finances or staff to get their stallions out competing but their youngstock do their talking for them which is a bit like proof of the pudding.

As with all breeding, you make your choice on what is important to you; you pay your money and wait to see what cooks before you can say you made a good choice.


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## tristar (4 February 2012)

i believe marcus aurelius has sired an  real hispano- arab foal last year which will be registered in the proper register of the spanish government.

i breed part arab sporthorses, i have the stallion 25 percent polish-crabbet, i have worked him hard before breeding from him, his first to come into work will be this year will be 4 year old 12 1/2 per cent arab 16.2 hh when i see how he rides i will decide if the stallion will stand at public stud, i think it is a stallion owners responsibility to take it as far as possible before breeding so you know your own animals and what they are likely to throw, and make every part arab sporthorse a special horse that will be valued and treasured by the people that ride them, and also so that the horses can breed on successfully through subsequent generations and develop strains suited to the different disciplines.

i hope the ahs will aid us at some point.


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## Avonbrook (4 February 2012)

angrovestud said:



			Just here to say Thank you Avonbrook I wish you much success with your boy x
		
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Many thanks angrovestud   I don't post that often because I always seem to write an essay when I do!



Maesfen said:



			Excellent post AvonB, thank you

Mustn't forget too that Romarnic Ranger is the product of another AHS  Premium Sire, Fairlyn Gemini (one of my personal favourites!) who also passed the NASTA assessment.
		
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Oh yes, another great PPS stallion  and a lovely example of having it both ways - performance himself and successful progeny.  Actually the scheme does seem to produce them.  In addition to the horses I referred to above Marcus' sire Aurelian was a PPS stallion through the performance of various of his progeny.  For example his other entire son Istfahan, who is in his 20's now, had the distinction of winning big races and then going on to be a gold medalist on what may have been his only appearance at International level halter at UKIAS.  

And as I said, there are so many good stallions out there with arabian blood.  I am woefully ignorant of small part-breds and, in particular, show-pony breeding but I would bet that the majority don't have to go too far back to hit an arabian heritage 



tristar said:



			i believe marcus aurelius has sired an  real hispano- arab foal last year which will be registered in the proper register of the spanish government.
		
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Yes, he sired a rather exciting 2011 colt from a very good and fully registered Hispano-Arabe mare owned by Epona stud and I understand that they hope that this colt will grade as a stallion in due course.  My understanding is that the Hispano-Arabe register was reopened to horses from the parent breeds to widen a small gene-pool and I was delighted that they chose Marcus.




tristar said:



			i hope the ahs will aid us at some point.
		
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Oh yes.........


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## EstherYoung (4 February 2012)

Avonbrook - a brilliant post, thank you.

The owner of Spud & Felix's sire has encountered similar difficulties. She doesn't ride, so with her he is a big pet and the love of her life, but his offspring (sorry, sleeper cells) have infiltrated many many different disciplines. A real case of them being jacks of all trades, masters of some  He also spent two years in Sweden on a breeding lease, where he passed a ridden stallion assessment and went on to sire racehorses, even appearing on the Swedish racehorse sire rankings for a while as one son won quite a bit. 

He easily meets the 12yo+ criteria for the premium scheme, in at least three of the listed categories that we know of, and in other disciplines that aren't on the AHS list. She is looking into the premium scheme; but he's a 21yo horse now, so how much it's worth jumping through all the hoops to prove himself yet again with a fairly disinterested AHS I don't know. His owner just wants his legacy to be more than 'just' an in hand horse, and it's hard to get that acknowledged in this country. The Swedish registry on the other hand were only too happy to have him on their books as a performance sire when he was there.

But I think we're getting onto a whole other rant now


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## Avonbrook (4 February 2012)

EstherYoung said:



			He easily meets the 12yo+ criteria for the premium scheme, in at least three of the listed categories that we know of, and in other disciplines that aren't on the AHS list. She is looking into the premium scheme; but he's a 21yo horse now, so how much it's worth jumping through all the hoops to prove himself yet again with a fairly disinterested AHS I don't know. His owner just wants his legacy to be more than 'just' an in hand horse, and it's hard to get that acknowledged in this country. The Swedish registry on the other hand were only too happy to have him on their books as a performance sire when he was there.

But I think we're getting onto a whole other rant now 

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I don't know the full ins and outs of the "second route" which is bad because I should and I will go and remedy that (!) but I think the criteria including number of "elite" progeny required are on the PPS website?

If he does fulfill those criteria I accept that the AHS as a whole may be disinterested but I strongly doubt that the PPS subcommittee would be 

He is a horse that I have always found attractive....


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## htobago (4 February 2012)

Super post avonbrook - very helpful and informative, as always! I would certainly hope that, as you say, Tobago is helping to promote the use of Arabian blood in sport-horse breeding *generally*, not just his blood in particular!

EstherYoung I do agree that the AHS could do more, but nowadays it is really very easy for breeders to find out about the many excellent Arabian, Anglo and Part-bred stallions who are out there. 

I am also absolutely certain that all of the sport-horse breeders who are using Tobago had the sense to type 'Arab stallions' or 'Arab studs' or 'Arab Horse Society' (or something similar) into Google and thoroughly check out other options before choosing him.  

These breeders are not novices who 'have their heads turned' by seeing a few pretty photos or some chat on a forum - they are experienced breeders who do their research and make their choice after careful consideration of the stallions available.

All of the splendid stallions mentioned here by avonbrook and others are advertised online - indeed many have their own websites (which Tobago does not yet have) or are owned by studs with professional, well-designed websites. They are hardly hidden away in obscurity! 

But while we're at it, I'd also like to throw in a mention for HOYS champion Silvern Risalm, and Sisyrinchium at Biddesden Stud, who is siring nice eventers. Among part-breds, Yawl Hillbilly is another impressive ridden stallion.


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## htobago (4 February 2012)

pintoarabian said:



			Arabs are, indeed, the great improvers. The lead article in the January edition of Horse Breeders Magazine gives more of an insight into the breed. Google is your friend if you wish to read it. 

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Excellent article!


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## htobago (4 February 2012)

Jamana said:



http://www.kevinsparrow.co.uk/BSE2012_MARCUS_AUREL.aspx

Marcus Aurelius was at Hartbury, see pics above.
Another Arab stallion out eventing is evented by a 14yo and went to a stallion parade at Bramham last year I think. Called Templars Orchestral Pearl. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmB0kG4EMzk

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Another very nice stallion.  And with some of the nicest owners on the planet, who are doing a lot to promote performance Arabs and Arabian blood in sport-horse breeding.


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## LynneB (4 February 2012)

for pinto's fab article on Arabians see here http://www.horsebreedersmagazine.com/


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## cloppy (4 February 2012)

Incandescent Flame is absolutely stunning, have seen some pictures of the Roundhill Crystal KIng before and he is a beautiful.
Thank you for posting the link Lynne.


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## pintoarabian (4 February 2012)

cloppy said:



			Incandescent Flame is absolutely stunning, have seen some pictures of the Roundhill Crystal KIng before and he is a beautiful.
Thank you for posting the link Lynne.
		
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Thank you, Cloppy. Incandescent Flame is another of TP Starbuck's first crop of foals. He is dual purpose CHAPS graded and a multi champion. He is the boy jumping in my sig pic, taken at the practice jump at his grading. His first foal is due next month.


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## cloppy (4 February 2012)

bet your really excited about that, I will watch out for your updates.


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## htobago (4 February 2012)

cloppy said:



			Incandescent Flame is absolutely stunning, have seen some pictures of the Roundhill Crystal KIng before and he is a beautiful.
Thank you for posting the link Lynne.
		
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They are indeed both gorgeous!


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## Fahrenheit (4 February 2012)

Arab blood in sport breeding is nothing new, there are some excellent examples of Arab blood in competition... In this country we had 2 Elite pony stallions with Arab blood just off the top of my head...
Ousbek International JA - Elite Graded with SPSS and Approved AES, now deceased, was pure bred French Arab and out of his less than 20 offspring 8 are now registered BS.
Georgeo II International JA - Elite Graded CHAPS and Approved AES, even though he has Danish papers his sire is Pinto and his dam is pure Arab, he is stood at Phoenix National Stud.
For some even better examples of Arab blood in competition you only have to skip over to France and look at the likes of...
Aron N, Glen SL, Heliot de Blonde and Linaro
3 of them are in the Top 12 of Europes best International show jumping pony stallions and no reason why they can't be crossed out to horse mares.

I was promoting Arab blood in sport horses and ponies 11 years ago and i'm sure their was people before that... Arabs are marmite in this country.


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## SavingGrace (4 February 2012)

pintoarabian said:



			All of the stallions mentioned in this thread have a great deal to commend them and breeders who use them will not be disappointed. They are all pure breds but don't overlook the value of the high percentage part breds such as TP Starbuck, 87.5% Arabian, whose stock is now out there doing the business. His first foal is currently jumping BS, showing great scope, agility and speed. His firstborn filly, also now jumping BS, has just been awarded Arab Horse Society Premium Mare Status, based on her performance. That's just two of them and they've barely started their careers! PM me for pics/links.
		
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I have admired TP Starbuck since pretty much his early days out showing!  He is beautifully marked.


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## htobago (5 February 2012)

Bezique said:



			Arab blood in sport breeding is nothing new, there are some excellent examples of Arab blood in competition... In this country we had 2 Elite pony stallions with Arab blood just off the top of my head...
Ousbek International JA - Elite Graded with SPSS and Approved AES, now deceased, was pure bred French Arab and out of his less than 20 offspring 8 are now registered BS.
Georgeo II International JA - Elite Graded CHAPS and Approved AES, even though he has Danish papers his sire is Pinto and his dam is pure Arab, he is stood at Phoenix National Stud.
For some even better examples of Arab blood in competition you only have to skip over to France and look at the likes of...
Aron N, Glen SL, Heliot de Blonde and Linaro
3 of them are in the Top 12 of Europes best International show jumping pony stallions and no reason why they can't be crossed out to horse mares.

I was promoting Arab blood in sport horses and ponies 11 years ago and i'm sure their was people before that... Arabs are marmite in this country.
		
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Nice examples - and yes, Arab blood has been promoted and used in sport-horse/WB breeding for a long time; in horses as well as ponies, and close up in many famous WB sport horses - and not just in the 'obviously' Arab-influenced Trakehner, or in the Selle Francais where everyone knows the French Anglo-Arab is a huge influence.

Ramzes AA has had a big influence in Holsteiner breeding, for example, Matcho AA in Hanoverian and Inscahallah AA in Oldenburg lines. Ramzes is one of the many notable descendants of the famous Arab stallion Amurath (who also features prominently in the Polish lines in Tobago's pedigree).

Inschallah AA is the maternal grandsire of Rohdiamant and his full brother Royal Diamond, both winners of the Bundeschampionat in dressage - and also paternal grandsire of Weihaiwej, showjumping double World Champion - among many many other stars. Matcho and Inschallah are both line-bred to Denouste, who is also in Tobago's Russian lines.

And then there is Bajar, pure Shagya Arab stallion, reserve grading champion Holsteiner, who has several approved stallion sons and grandsons (mostly Holsteiner), including the international showjumper and very successful SJ sire Bachus.

In KWPN breeding, there are among others the mare Katincka and her daughter Rianne. Katincka was half Arab, by the pure-bred Little Star (who incidentally carries many of the same Polish Arab lines as Tobago). Her daughter Rianne founded one of the most successful KWPN lines ever, producing 14 foals, of which 5 became international SJ winners, 2 approved stallions, 3 preferent daughters and 2 keur/sport daughters.

Then the Olympic showjumper Almox Prints J - Trakehner x Arab (at least 1/4 Arab, and incidentally from the exact same Russian Arab lines as Tobago) who also sired lots of international SJ winners.

There are many, many other examples, of course - and I'm sure others here have more expert knowledge of them. I learnt most of this from a Dutch friend - I'm certainly not an expert on WB pedigrees myself!

I know this thread had moved on a bit from the "why Arab?" and "why Tobago?" questions, but I hope these details are of help (or at least some interest) to anyone who still had doubts about either.


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## htobago (7 February 2012)

Hollycatt said:



			I live in Hungary and shagya arabs are wonderful.  Often about the 16 hands mark which is useful if you are tall. I know smaller arabs carry weight well and often take up the leg but personally I do like something about 16hh or taller.  Shagyas in particular have been used in warmblood breeding and I think if I wanted to introduce arab for an upper level sportshorse I would lean towards a shagya rather than an in hand show horse. In most warmblood studbooks mares and stallions have to be approved anyway so the choice of arab blood is very limited.

I have always loved seeing posts on H Tobago.  I have never seen a foal pic I have disliked and that is from a variety of mares. I have seen few in real life but what I saw I liked. Any thread I see on him I look as I find him gorgeous (and I am a die hard warmblood fan). They all seem to have a lot of presence and of course beauty. As with any stallion time will tell as regards his stock but it would appear they will do what it says on the tin.  Will they compete GP show jumping or dressage?  No. Endurance, eventing or showing at a high level - with the right mare and rider why not? Will they be good at a slightly lower level in any discipline and give their owners immense pleasure - I would suspect the answer would be a definate yes.
		
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Hollycatt I somehow missed your very nice post - so sorry, and thank you for your kind and sensible comments!

For what it's worth, Tobago is consistently throwing offspring much bigger than him - he's 15.2, and some of his foals look set to be at least 16hh. He's even somehow managed to sire a 15.3 baby from a barely 14hh Highland Pony mare!


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## JanetGeorge (2 August 2012)

Cherrygarden said:



			As far as soundness goes though and general toughness and ability to perform with grit and bravery(log crocodiles notwithstanding) there isn't really any question that arabs are one of the best places to go for those attributes plus injecting a little sparkle and quality.
		
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These were perhaps the words that influenced me most when I was considering a departure from my usual approach for two of my sport horse mares - they struck many chords and reminded me of what I loved about an Arabian stallion I looked after some 40 years ago!

The two mares have been bred to my RID stallion every year for some years now - and while I (and buyers! ) love the progeny I feltit would be worth trying something different.  One mare, Bazaar's Brook, is IDxTB - a VERY pretty mare who has thrown more to her TB dam (who also produced the CHAPS stallion Bazaar's Texas and Richard Waygood's Inter. eventer, The Bees Knees.)  Her ID cross offspring - 3/4 ID - look much more like the first cross.  Two of the fillies graded AID - and one of those has been bred back to the RID (Avanti Amorous Archie) and even at 7/8ths ID, the foals ooze a quality I like!

The other mare - big MW - called Katie - is by Carmel Head(Ire) out of an unpapered 'Irish' mare - a stunning mover herself and her foals are BIG - and big movers - with wonderful trainable temperaments.

Having never seen a foal by HTobago I didn't like - when tossing with trying either a cross back to the TB - or .... he jumped to the fore and both mares have now been AI'd by him.  I figure that with a little luck, I should get Anglo-Arab types with just a touch more bone and brain (from the ID) than is usual in this excellent cross.  And hopefully they'll end up a little smaller than the foals these mares have produced to the ID (not everyone wants their sporthorses at 17hh+)

This is Katie - 
	
	
		
		
	


	





and this is Bazaar's Brook - 
	
	
		
		
	


	





And this is one of Katie's foals by the RID stallion - well over 17hh, maybe a bit plain about the head, but with good movement and a wonderful temperament and trainable attitude (and no, he's not for sale, he jumped off the shelf nearly two years ago and is heading for an eventing career.)







You'll have to wait until next year to see what the lovely HTobago does with these mares - so will I and it's driving me crazy already!


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## eventrider23 (2 August 2012)

Oh JanetGeorge I simply cannot WAIT to see what these girls produce to Tobago.....think they will be special indeed as, like you, I have YET to see anything by him I haven't like....arab, anglo, whatever!  I cannot wait to put my Trak girly back in foal to him next year and he has so swayed me to his foals that who knows who else!  I already have it planned that my yearling filly out of the Trak mare by my old colt will go to him when she is old enough! (and you certainly won't get any plain heads on your Toabgolings!!!)


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## htobago (2 August 2012)

Thank you Janet and Jane for your *very* kind words! And of course for choosing Tobago for your splendid mares!

I do *completely* understand that some people are surprised by the number of serious sport-horse breeders now using Tobago. A pure-bred show-Arab, unproven under saddle (though through injury and no fault of his own, as explained) is an unusual choice.

But the proof of any stallion is his offspring, and all these smart, experienced breeders looked very carefully at his stock before selecting him. 

Some are now being rewarded for trusting their own judgement and doing something a bit different, such as Tanya Endres with her Anglo Arab colt Lekanto, by H Tobago out of Miss Daisy, who was awarded an Elite Premium in Eventing (yes that's Eventing, not Endurance ) at Hartpury Futurity recently, with the top score of the day (9.18) across all ages and disciplines - and Lekanto is currently the National joint top-scoring Eventer (all ages) of the 2012 series so far. 

Of this year's crop of sport-horse foals by Tobago, all of the breeders who can do so have either already repeated the breeding to him or plan to use him again next year. This is even more important than Futurity results to me, as repeat breedings are the highest compliment a breeder can pay a stallion!

I am *very* grateful to these breeders for taking a chance on my show-Arab, and full of admiration for their independent spirit! 

Of course, this is Tobago's first proper 'crop' of sport-horse foals, and we will have to wait some years to see how they perform under saddle - but the same would be true of any 'new' stallion. 

Meanwhile, here is the foal the Futurity evaluators rated as a potential international eventer:













I hope he will go on to demonstrate the value of Arabian blood in sport breeding, as many others have done before him. And that other sport breeders will consider the many excellent Arab stallions we have in this country.


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## htobago (2 August 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			These were perhaps the words that influenced me most when I was considering a departure from my usual approach for two of my sport horse mares - they struck many chords and reminded me of what I loved about an Arabian stallion I looked after some 40 years ago!

The two mares have been bred to my RID stallion every year for some years now - and while I (and buyers! ) love the progeny I feltit would be worth trying something different.  One mare, Bazaar's Brook, is IDxTB - a VERY pretty mare who has thrown more to her TB dam (who also produced the CHAPS stallion Bazaar's Texas and Richard Waygood's Inter. eventer, The Bees Knees.)  Her ID cross offspring - 3/4 ID - look much more like the first cross.  Two of the fillies graded AID - and one of those has been bred back to the RID (Avanti Amorous Archie) and even at 7/8ths ID, the foals ooze a quality I like!

The other mare - big MW - called Katie - is by Carmel Head(Ire) out of an unpapered 'Irish' mare - a stunning mover herself and her foals are BIG - and big movers - with wonderful trainable temperaments.

Having never seen a foal by HTobago I didn't like - when tossing with trying either a cross back to the TB - or .... he jumped to the fore and both mares have now been AI'd by him.  I figure that with a little luck, I should get Anglo-Arab types with just a touch more bone and brain (from the ID) than is usual in this excellent cross.  And hopefully they'll end up a little smaller than the foals these mares have produced to the ID (not everyone wants their sporthorses at 17hh+)

This is Katie - 
	
	
		
		
	


	





and this is Bazaar's Brook - 
	
	
		
		
	


	





And this is one of Katie's foals by the RID stallion - well over 17hh, maybe a bit plain about the head, but with good movement and a wonderful temperament and trainable attitude (and no, he's not for sale, he jumped off the shelf nearly two years ago and is heading for an eventing career.)







You'll have to wait until next year to see what the lovely HTobago does with these mares - so will I and it's driving me crazy already!

Click to expand...

Janet thank you SO much again. And it seems I have Cherrygarden to thank too for this amazing opportunity!


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## htobago (2 August 2012)

eventrider23 said:



			Oh JanetGeorge I simply cannot WAIT to see what these girls produce to Tobago.....think they will be special indeed as, like you, I have YET to see anything by him I haven't like....arab, anglo, whatever!  I cannot wait to put my Trak girly back in foal to him next year and he has so swayed me to his foals that who knows who else!  I already have it planned that my yearling filly out of the Trak mare by my old colt will go to him when she is old enough! (and you certainly won't get any plain heads on your Toabgolings!!!)
		
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Jane I know this sounds soppy, but I really don't know what I would do without all your advice and support and encouragement. Everyone - Jane has been like Tobago's fairy godmother, always telling me "You SHALL go to the ball" (or whatever the equine equivalent is)!


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## ritajennings (2 August 2012)

I don't want to jump on the band wagon but..... I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE THIS CROSS EITHER, there said it 

Kate Janet has some Archie fillies so you never know a HTobago xArchie foal we will think that we have died and gone to Heaven xx


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## tristar (2 August 2012)

most pics of tobago's foals look almost like there is an invisable someone riding  and shaping them, if you could imagine a bridle and rider on them, just the natural way they hold themselves when moving, a  kind of balance, which if you have naturally you are halfway there, for me that is the hallmark of a good youngster, but then i'm predudiced as i breed part bred arabs anyway


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## ribbons (2 August 2012)

I am such a numpty, I scoured horse deals for the article referred to before realising this was an old thread resurrected.

I feel people who think like 
SusieT are very short sighted. There are plenty of stallions out there that are good, even excellent in their sporting discipline but sadly lacking when it comes to passing those qualities on. Just because a stallion does not compete himself ( and in Tobago's case for a perfectly valid reason) does not mean he can not be a consistent sire of incredible talent. As has been already said this is his first real crop of performance bred foals so it will take time to know if he can deliver the goods or not, but early signs are that they are top quality youngsters. 
Many stallions are used by mare owners with vision long before 
their own career  takes off. 
Sticking to stallions with a proven record is one way of breeding.
Taking a gamble with an unproven sire ( performance wise) who you admire and has the attributes to compliment your mare is another way.
But be assured Neither route will guarantee what you are hoping to breed. I personally would lean towards a stallion that consistently sires foals with the quality to impress judges and evaluators time and time again than one that performs brilliantly himself but is inconsistent in passing this talents on. 
As a mare owner, what I want from a stallion is the ability to stamp his stock, and Tobago is certainly doing that. 
I shall watch these babies of his growing up with great interest, if they fulfil half the promise they are showing now, there will be some very satisfied breeders.


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## volatis (2 August 2012)

You won't believe how many people told me a I was stupid for planning to breed to Tobago. How many people questioned what a ungraded show horse could possibly add to my breeding program. Luckily I knowmy mares and my breeding aims, and my Tobago filly, long awaited after 4 years, was everything and more that I wanted. It just goes to show you shouldn't be influenced by the opinions of people on internet forums,but go with your own gut instinct and experience.
If I ever breed again, which sadly is highly unlikely, I know I would use Tobago again in an instant! This years foal crop has been remarkable. Janet, I shall have to finally get my arse up to Shropshire to come and see your tobagalings when they arrive!


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## JanetGeorge (2 August 2012)

volatis said:



			Janet, I shall have to finally get my arse up to Shropshire to come and see your tobagalings when they arrive!
		
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Why wait so long??  There's an old friend of yours JUST down the road who would LOVE to see you! 

I'm pleased you approve - because I've seen the horses you've bred and very much respect your judgement!  And you're right - you HAVE to go with your own gut instincts when it comes to determining whether a stallion is GOOD - and if he'll suit your mares!

I did this with my young ID stallion who the Inspectors put down (and a rather po-faced one told me I should geld him because of his 'bad temperament' (yeah - he played up at Grading, surrounded by testosterone and on only his second trip off the farm!)  I used him last year and have had some cracking foals by him - and I've used him again this year without a moment's hesitation!


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## imafluffybunny (2 August 2012)

My Warmblood mare is in foal to Tobago, she is a dressage mare and every Stallion in her pedigree is a GP dressage stallion for 5 generations+ - the reason I used Tobago is the same reason I use any stallion, I look to see what the stallion will improve and bring to the combination. I used him because he improves movement, his foals are uphill, his foals have presense and Arabs are notoriously hardy and add soundness. I looked at him like I would look at any stallion (WB or not) and I asked myself what will he improve/add to my mare. I agree its a different choice and not one I have done before but I really feel this foal should be fab!!


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## Enfys (3 August 2012)

SusieT said:



			Yes- if the offspring are doing the necessary you can promote him. *Irresponsible in the first place to breed unridden stock-no proof of soundness or performance (regardless of what has been done in the past).* this particular stallions progeny are only a few years old I think? So a gambling waiting game really at this point. He is pretty, of course.
		
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That is merely your personal opinion and you are, of course, entitled to it  

I don't agree at all, but then I would be willing to gamble on a foal by Htobago, I have been since the moment I first clapped eyes on him, and that isn't purely because I like arabians. Very sadly circumstances dictate I cannot use him.

I would say though that Htobago has sired horses out of a variety of mares and has had repeat breedings and some top class mares to him. That alone says a lot for me.

Funnily enough my other favourite arabian stallion was also chestnut, although a totally different type ... useful little chap by the name of Ben Rabba.


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## Avonbrook (3 August 2012)

Enfys said:



			... useful little chap by the name of Ben Rabba.
		
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Whose UK descendents, although sadly few in number, are still very recognisable in the 3rd and 4th generations in terms both of looks and of performance.  A very prepotent stallion!


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## micramadam (3 August 2012)

Have considered using H Tobago on my KWPN mare. 
The only thing that's putting me off is his height. My mare is 16.1hh and he is 15.1hh if I'm not mistaken.  A lot of kids over here progress to horses at a very young age, 13 and sometimes younger, and we could end up with what the Dutch class is an E-pony. 

A-pony: up to 1,17 meter 
B-pony: from 1,17 up to 1,27 meter 
C-pony: from 1,27 up to 1,37 meter 
D-pony: from 1,37 up to 1,48 meter 
E-pony/small horse: from 1,48 up to 1,569 meter. 

My daughter is small enough as an adult to ride it but would have to ride it in the horse classes as she is 18. Not exactly what we want. I know the resultant foal would be stunning but it would be bred for use in affiliated dressage. 

I would be very interested to hear what heights the foals from other warm bloods/ bigger mares have made before I make a decision.


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## htobago (3 August 2012)

ritajennings said:



			I don't want to jump on the band wagon but..... I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE THIS CROSS EITHER, there said it 

Kate Janet has some Archie fillies so you never know a HTobago xArchie foal we will think that we have died and gone to Heaven xx
		
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Oh I would LOVE to see a Tobago foal out of one of Archie's gorgeous daughters! (Don't mind which one - Archie stamps them all with the same excellent qualities!)

One doesn't see many (if any) straight Arab/ID crosses - although if one thinks about it, this cross could be just as successful as the classic TB/ID, don't you think?


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## htobago (3 August 2012)

tristar said:



			most pics of tobago's foals look almost like there is an invisable someone riding  and shaping them, if you could imagine a bridle and rider on them, just the natural way they hold themselves when moving, a  kind of balance, which if you have naturally you are halfway there, for me that is the hallmark of a good youngster, but then i'm predudiced as i breed part bred arabs anyway
		
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Thank you tristar - you are very kind. I know what you mean, and just hope that these sport-babies look as good when they have real, visible riders on board!


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## htobago (3 August 2012)

ribbons said:



			I am such a numpty, I scoured horse deals for the article referred to before realising this was an old thread resurrected.

I feel people who think like 
SusieT are very short sighted. There are plenty of stallions out there that are good, even excellent in their sporting discipline but sadly lacking when it comes to passing those qualities on. Just because a stallion does not compete himself ( and in Tobago's case for a perfectly valid reason) does not mean he can not be a consistent sire of incredible talent. As has been already said this is his first real crop of performance bred foals so it will take time to know if he can deliver the goods or not, but early signs are that they are top quality youngsters. 
Many stallions are used by mare owners with vision long before 
their own career  takes off. 
Sticking to stallions with a proven record is one way of breeding.
Taking a gamble with an unproven sire ( performance wise) who you admire and has the attributes to compliment your mare is another way.
But be assured Neither route will guarantee what you are hoping to breed. I personally would lean towards a stallion that consistently sires foals with the quality to impress judges and evaluators time and time again than one that performs brilliantly himself but is inconsistent in passing this talents on. 
As a mare owner, what I want from a stallion is the ability to stamp his stock, and Tobago is certainly doing that. 
I shall watch these babies of his growing up with great interest, if they fulfil half the promise they are showing now, there will be some very satisfied breeders.
		
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Ribbons thank you so much for this thoughtful post. I agree, both approaches can be equally successful, and both involve a degree of risk. 

And I'm sure all stallion owners are grateful (as I certainly am) that so many breeders are willing to trust their own judgement and take a chance on stallions at the start of their careers.


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## htobago (3 August 2012)

volatis said:



			You won't believe how many people told me a I was stupid for planning to breed to Tobago. How many people questioned what a ungraded show horse could possibly add to my breeding program. Luckily I knowmy mares and my breeding aims, and my Tobago filly, long awaited after 4 years, was everything and more that I wanted. It just goes to show you shouldn't be influenced by the opinions of people on internet forums,but go with your own gut instinct and experience.
If I ever breed again, which sadly is highly unlikely, I know I would use Tobago again in an instant! This years foal crop has been remarkable. Janet, I shall have to finally get my arse up to Shropshire to come and see your tobagalings when they arrive!
		
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Thank you very much Sacha. 

It was horribly sad when the filly Sacha bred died (of a mystery infection, vets still don't know what caused it) at only 6 weeks, despite Jane (eventrider) and her vets fighting day and night to save her. I still can't look at photos without crying, and poor Jane, who had looked after her devotedly and loved her since birth, was inconsolable. 

Jane now owns the beautiful dam of this filly, Holme Park Venezia, and is determined to repeat the breeding as soon as her circumstances allow.

This is Blitz (Volatis Valencia) at just 1 day old:







Just miserable to lose such a stunning, sparkly, sweet-natured foal, and I hope it will be some consolation to see another just like her - with luck perhaps in 2014.


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## htobago (3 August 2012)

micramadam said:



			Have considered using H Tobago on my KWPN mare. 
The only thing that's putting me off is his height. My mare is 16.1hh and he is 15.1hh if I'm not mistaken.  A lot of kids over here progress to horses at a very young age, 13 and sometimes younger, and we could end up with what the Dutch class is an E-pony. 

A-pony: up to 1,17 meter 
B-pony: from 1,17 up to 1,27 meter 
C-pony: from 1,27 up to 1,37 meter 
D-pony: from 1,37 up to 1,48 meter 
E-pony/small horse: from 1,48 up to 1,569 meter. 

My daughter is small enough as an adult to ride it but would have to ride it in the horse classes as she is 18. Not exactly what we want. I know the resultant foal would be stunning but it would be bred for use in affiliated dressage. 

I would be very interested to hear what heights the foals from other warm bloods/ bigger mares have made before I make a decision.
		
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Thank you very much for thinking of Tobago! 

But if you are looking to breed something for the 'pony' categories from this mare, I'm afraid he would not be suitable. He is actually 15.2, and tends to throw big, tall foals (including a 15.3 youngster out of a barely-14hh Highland Pony mare!).

His foals out of 16hh/16.1 mares are all estimated to reach at least 16hh at maturity. 

So sorry, as he has had a super filly out of a KWPN mare this year, and I would love to see more. Here is the filly, to give you an idea:


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## htobago (3 August 2012)

imafluffybunny said:



			My Warmblood mare is in foal to Tobago, she is a dressage mare and every Stallion in her pedigree is a GP dressage stallion for 5 generations+ - the reason I used Tobago is the same reason I use any stallion, I look to see what the stallion will improve and bring to the combination. I used him because he improves movement, his foals are uphill, his foals have presense and Arabs are notoriously hardy and add soundness. I looked at him like I would look at any stallion (WB or not) and I asked myself what will he improve/add to my mare. I agree its a different choice and not one I have done before but I really feel this foal should be fab!!
		
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Thank you - and thank you VERY much for breeding your wonderful Roulette to my boy!

Everyone - this is another really top-class mare, graded into the Hanoverian Main Stud Book, with a star-studded Oldenburg/Trakehner dressage pedigree: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10804754

She has already produced splendid foals by leading stallions such as Sarkozy, Saint Malo and Legrande. Hard acts for Tobago to follow, but a huge honour for him, and for the Arab breed!


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## Maesfen (3 August 2012)

Well, I'm very disappointed in my Tobago  - but in a very good way!

Lol, that got you all going didn't it?!

Everyone else posts pics of their lovely exuberant Tobago babies and I get this puny effort in spite of turning them into the big field and remembering to take the camera video turned on with new batteries ready for the fireworks which usually denotes a new field.

A very sedate walk -







So disappointing but then I also got this -








but this was as exciting as it got.  I must just have the most laid back Tobago so far but I wouldn't change him for the world; he is such a nice person to have around; hopefully we'll get more fireworks when the other pair come back!


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## htobago (3 August 2012)

Enfys said:



			That is merely your personal opinion and you are, of course, entitled to it  

I don't agree at all, but then I would be willing to gamble on a foal by Htobago, I have been since the moment I first clapped eyes on him, and that isn't purely because I like arabians. Very sadly circumstances dictate I cannot use him.

I would say though that Htobago has sired horses out of a variety of mares and has had repeat breedings and some top class mares to him. That alone says a lot for me.

Funnily enough my other favourite arabian stallion was also chestnut, although a totally different type ... useful little chap by the name of Ben Rabba.
		
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Sorry - a lot of posts from me here, but all these very kind comments deserve individual replies, not just some off-hand general 'thanks'. 

Thank you very much Enfys. I am a big fan of your horses too!

Debate is good, and is only to be expected when breeders are making a somewhat unusual choice. 

But these are all experienced, intelligent, respected breeders, who diligently research all the available stallions, and have carefully chosen a particular pure-bred Arab to complement their mares. 

And as you say, all the repeat breedings from such breeders speak volumes.

I share your high opinion of Ben Rabba too! A different type, but a superb and highly influential stallion. We are lucky to have his excellent grandson Marcus Aurelius to continue this very important line here in the UK.


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## micramadam (4 August 2012)

htobago said:



			Thank you very much for thinking of Tobago! 

But if you are looking to breed something for the 'pony' categories from this mare, I'm afraid he would not be suitable. He is actually 15.2, and tends to throw big, tall foals (including a 15.3 youngster out of a barely-14hh Highland Pony mare!).

His foals out of 16hh/16.1 mares are all estimated to reach at least 16hh at maturity. 

So sorry, as he has had a super filly out of a KWPN mare this year, and I would love to see more. Here is the filly, to give you an idea:






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On the contrary, I DON'T want a pony foal which is why I am hesitant. 
I do however believe that this injection of 'new blood' is exactly what is needed for the KWPN studbook. There are far too many foals bred from the same stallions year after year. 

This is the mare I am thinking of using:













and this was her first foal (now 2 years)












I always make a point of seeing the stallion 'in the flesh' so to speak so that I can be absolutely certain that he will improve on what the mare is lacking and also some of his offspring. Not planning on putting mare in foal again till 2014 as she is currently competing in affiliated dressage and we want to get her up to advanced level before breeding another foal from her but I will be getting in contact with you when ready and will keep watching his progress and that of his offspring. 
I


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## htobago (4 August 2012)

Pat you do make me laugh! I'm glad Sparks is being more laid back, though - sounds like such a lovely chap. 

Here's a pic of Sparks looking more sparky, for those who missed it:


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## htobago (4 August 2012)

micramadam said:



			On the contrary, I DON'T want a pony foal which is why I am hesitant. 
I do however believe that this injection of 'new blood' is exactly what is needed for the KWPN studbook. There are far too many foals bred from the same stallions year after year. 

This is the mare I am thinking of using:













and this was her first foal (now 2 years)












I always make a point of seeing the stallion 'in the flesh' so to speak so that I can be absolutely certain that he will improve on what the mare is lacking and also some of his offspring. Not planning on putting mare in foal again till 2014 as she is currently competing in affiliated dressage and we want to get her up to advanced level before breeding another foal from her but I will be getting in contact with you when ready and will keep watching his progress and that of his offspring. 
I
		
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Oh how stupid of me! I completely misunderstood your first post and thought you wanted to breed for those 'pony' categories. 

Jolly pleased that wasn't what you meant after all, especially now having seen your very beautiful mare and her first foal! WOW!

You would of course be *very *welcome to come and see my boy any time - although I realise this won't be for a while, as her dressage career must take priority. 

Meanwhile, his 2013 foal out of imafluffybunny's graded WB dressage mare Roulette will be one to watch out for...


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## ribbons (4 August 2012)

Micramadam, stunning mare and Her foal looks fabulous. You must be very proud of them.


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## micramadam (4 August 2012)

Thanks HTobago and Ribbons for the lovely comments. 
I happen to think a foal out of the Grey mare by HTobago will be stunning though the majority of breeders over here will think me mad for doing so. I, however, am not so short sighted!

We are hoping to take the foal in the pictures to the stallion grading which starts at the end of this year. Desperately trying to find a decent place to prepare him for this but as we are not 'breeders' as such they are being extremely ignorant and ignoring our e-mails. Manners over here leave a lot to be deserved.


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## jamesmead (5 August 2012)

Jamana said:



			Another Arab stallion out eventing is evented by a 14yo and went to a stallion parade at Bramham last year I think. Called Templars Orchestral Pearl. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmB0kG4EMzk

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Very nice horse but perhaps someone should geld the announcer.


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## tristar (5 August 2012)

micramadam, hope your inspired thinking leads to success, there are many of us out here breeding what WE want and not following the crowd

on mainland europe i've found too much regimented following the leader, got have this and that bit of paper, hundreds of foals by the same stallions exclusion of crossbreds etc.


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## Laafet (5 August 2012)

htobago said:



			Oh I would LOVE to see a Tobago foal out of one of Archie's gorgeous daughters! (Don't mind which one - Archie stamps them all with the same excellent qualities!)

One doesn't see many (if any) straight Arab/ID crosses - although if one thinks about it, this cross could be just as successful as the classic TB/ID, don't you think?
		
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Murphy was a straight Arab x ID, there are lots of photos of him on HBF. IMHO they are a far better cross than the ID x TB on the soundness and decent feet front. He had the floaty trot of a the Arab but was sensible. He went on to do Para's and had just got onto the World Class Performance Squad with 2012 in mind when he broke down. He did everything hunting, sidesaddle, showing, endurance, dressage. It is a cross that if I ever had the opportunity to I would do again, or maybe Connie x Arab.


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## micramadam (5 August 2012)

tristar said:



			micramadam, hope your inspired thinking leads to success, there are many of us out here breeding what WE want and not following the crowd

on mainland europe i've found too much regimented following the leader, got have this and that bit of paper, hundreds of foals by the same stallions exclusion of crrossbeds etc.
		
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Quite true. We used Vivaldi because he complimented our mare not because he was in fashion. I think the results speak for themselves. 
Looking for new blood to use as there are far too many by the same stallions. It will be a nightmare in a few years time to find unrelated mares and stallions.


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## ribbons (6 August 2012)

Micramadam, you've hit the nail on the head, new blood must be introduced regularly or we'll be in trouble in a few years. Unfortunately, as Tristar says, there is so much follow the leader going on.

In actual fact it doesn't matter one bit how a stallion performs in competition. What matters is how his offspring perform. A stallions only value and worth is in the breeding barn. He can be the top dressage/SJ/ eventer in the whole world but if he doesn't pass those talents on he might as well have the crown jewels whipped off and be a fantastic gelding. 

I know some do both, but many don't. A non competing stallion who's youngstock excel in competition regularly is worth a million times more than a world champion who's stock are mediocre, and let's be honest, someone has to go first.

Thank god some breeders haven't got wooly coats and follow the trend all the time, if Tobago's sporting foals fulfil their promise, and yes it is early days and they may not, but if they do breeders will be confident in using him because he is consistent in stamping his stock. 

Breeding is always a gamble and there are no guarantees, but I like to know my stallion of choice consistently sires talent. I couldn't care less if he exhibits talent himself, so long as his stock do.


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## htobago (6 August 2012)

Laafet said:



			Murphy was a straight Arab x ID, there are lots of photos of him on HBF. IMHO they are a far better cross than the ID x TB on the soundness and decent feet front. He had the floaty trot of a the Arab but was sensible. He went on to do Para's and had just got onto the World Class Performance Squad with 2012 in mind when he broke down. He did everything hunting, sidesaddle, showing, endurance, dressage. It is a cross that if I ever had the opportunity to I would do again, or maybe Connie x Arab.
		
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Oh thank you Laafet! I was hoping someone here might have an example of this cross. Will go and look for photos of Murphy!

I would never knock the classic TB/ID cross, which in varying percentages has produced some of the world's top performers - as well as countless super all-rounders. But the right Arab blood can bring something extra, perhaps - particularly, as you say, in terms of soundness and movement.


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## htobago (7 August 2012)

micramadam said:



			Quite true. We used Vivaldi because he complimented our mare not because he was in fashion. I think the results speak for themselves. 
Looking for new blood to use as there are far too many by the same stallions. It will be a nightmare in a few years time to find unrelated mares and stallions.
		
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The results most certainly do speak for themselves - that foal is superb!!

I know there are concerns in other breeds about a handful of fashionable stallions dominating and narrowing the gene pool, but I didn't realise that this was seen as a potential problem with WBs as well. I suppose I sort of figured that with so many different WB breeds, and so many very good stallions, this would be less likely. Interesting to learn that it could be a problem, and that new blood is needed.


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## htobago (7 August 2012)

micramadam said:



			Thanks HTobago and Ribbons for the lovely comments. 
I happen to think a foal out of the Grey mare by HTobago will be stunning though the majority of breeders over here will think me mad for doing so. I, however, am not so short sighted!

We are hoping to take the foal in the pictures to the stallion grading which starts at the end of this year. Desperately trying to find a decent place to prepare him for this but as we are not 'breeders' as such they are being extremely ignorant and ignoring our e-mails. Manners over here leave a lot to be deserved.

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Thank you again! 

And I really hope you get that splendid colt to a grading - how very rude (and silly) of them to ignore your emails!


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## JanetGeorge (10 August 2012)

Whee!  My big ISH mare by Carmel Head scanned in foal (14 days) to H Tobago this morning.  Can't wait (although I guess I'll have to! )

I'll put money on the foal being chestnut (I think that's a sure thing as the mare is chestnut) and hopefully a little smaller than Katie's previous foals by my 17hh RID.

Many thanks to Kate, H Tobago's lovely owner.  Just cross everything for Brook's scan next week and I might have two Tobagolings next year!  I think Anglo-Arab with a touch of Irish Draught might be very nice indeed!


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## eventrider23 (10 August 2012)

^^^^^^ LIKE


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## ihatework (10 August 2012)

I'm looking forward to seeing the progress of these foals and how they perform under saddle.

He must have a 4yo crop by now? Any news on how they are doing?


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## FairyLights (10 August 2012)

Theres a 4 year old by H Tobago stallion. Pure Arab. He's for sale in Yorkshire  for £800. He's on Arabian Lines. Might be a bargain for someone.


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## LilMissy (14 November 2013)

JanetGeorge - just resurrecting this thread - want to see pics of your Tobago babies please?!


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## JanetGeorge (14 November 2013)

LilMissy said:



			JanetGeorge - just resurrecting this thread - want to see pics of your Tobago babies please?!
		
Click to expand...

Go on then!  They ARE early pics - foals are much bigger now (and plastered in mud) so haven't had the camera out!

This is Indigo Castara - ex IDxTB mare Bazaar's Brook - a bay fillie who looks VERY Arab-like - very pretty!






And this is the colt - Indigo Paprika - ex my Carmel Head mare Katie.  He has a slightly more masculine face (Mum doesn't have the prettiest TB head in the world) and looks very like an Anglo-Arab (which he almost is!)







I'm thrilled with them both!  They're obviously livelier than the IDs and ID crosses, but they are remarkably manageable - they've had their feet done by the farrier and were as good as any foal for the first time (and better than many!)  And they really MOVE!


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## Meowy Catkin (14 November 2013)

Lovely foals Janet.  The colt really catches my eye. 

Anglos and PBA's are often under-rated. Hopefully stallions like H Tobago will turn this around as there are some wonderful performance arabs out there (eg Ibn Ajwaad, HS Pirandelo, Dervatiw Gwyddion) that would cross really well with non arab mares.


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## JanetGeorge (14 November 2013)

He's a cracker!  ALMOST Anglo-Arab with just a dash of ID!  I might try him with the Futurities - be a new outing for me.


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## Meowy Catkin (14 November 2013)

Fantastic - it would be lovely to hear how he gets on.


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## cloppy (14 November 2013)

They are wonderful Janet, as you know I've two by Tobago out of my Trakehner mare and the temperaments are spot on.


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## TarrSteps (16 November 2013)

Lovely looking foals, Janet. The colt, especially, looks very smart.


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## Rollin (18 November 2013)

micramadam said:



			Thanks HTobago and Ribbons for the lovely comments. 
I happen to think a foal out of the Grey mare by HTobago will be stunning though the majority of breeders over here will think me mad for doing so. I, however, am not so short sighted!

We are hoping to take the foal in the pictures to the stallion grading which starts at the end of this year. Desperately trying to find a decent place to prepare him for this but as we are not 'breeders' as such they are being extremely ignorant and ignoring our e-mails. Manners over here leave a lot to be deserved.

Click to expand...

In the UK too.  I  was looking for a trainer for my young stallion, I AM a breeder not a trainer.   As you say lots of people don't answer their email or phones.  They also 'don't get' if I can never get in touch with you I won't send you a horse.  I expect to get regular up-dates.


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