# Aaargh, think I might have to PTS my in-foal mare



## scarymare (5 October 2011)

Hi all 

I posted on here 3 weeks ago with horrific pictures of wire injuries to my broodmare.  My vet now advises that it is not healing properly and he would like to try skin grafts or refer her to a horspital for the same.  Estimated costs could run close to £7K.  He is not optimistic of a positive outcome.  If the operation fails, he would try to keep her going until the foaling but doubts if she would sustain the high demands of having/feeding a foal without a significant risk of constant wound opening and risk of septicemia.  This vet is already a second opionion as I have sacked my initial vets whose handling was incompetent to say the least and this has made things so much worse.  She was inseminated on 14th April so is almost 6 months gone.  I'm really in a quandry but could definitely not manage an orphan foal.  The market value of youngstock atm is pretty low, even for horses of her calibre (£1000 stud fee too).  Sorry to bring this down to numbers but I am not a bottomless pit and bills already close to £2K.  Pointless post really - anyone got any ideas (no judgemental ones please as I'm already doing that myself).  BTW she is 8 and has a permanent ligament injury.


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## Shantara (5 October 2011)

Oh, that's really sad  I hope you're doing ok. I can't suggest anything, but I'll be thinking of you and your mare!


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## rubysmum (5 October 2011)

Based on the maths alone
currently
1k stud fees
2 k vets fees
300 squid PTs costs

with treatment [ & as you say no great prognosis]

1 k stud fees
2 k vets fees
7 k additional vets fees

& whatever additional costs for hand rearing foal & all the additional issues linked to hand rearing

i dont know what the sale profit from young stock would be - i suspect not enough to cover your costs [ please forgive me if I am wrong]

& what would you do with the mare afterwards - given a better outcome then current prognosis & is that a real choice for you???

sorry, if this read as blunt, best wishes


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## stencilface (5 October 2011)

Apologies if these are tupid questions, but could the poor healing be due to her providing for the development of a foal?  If so if there anything you can feed/do to help this?

Other than that - with a permanent injury to her (ligament) and a not so good outlook, I'm think PTS should be a seriously considered option


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## Littlepowderkeg (5 October 2011)

Hi, I too had a mare who severed her hock (hitting all structures,) on wire it was absolutely horrific. I havent seen the original photos you posted but am guessing it will be along the same lines. My vet also wanted her to have skin grafts etc. We used Alu Spray to keep the wound covered and it took 18 months for the wound to heal (it always was very weak following healing) and she was never 100% sound again. However, we did manage to pull her through..(without skin grafts)  

I dont know if you have an experience of the National Foaling Bank, and Joanna Varden (SP?) but it may be another option if you want to save the foal (and yourself a lot of effort and possibly heartbreak) they should be able to find a mare to "adopt" your foal. Sorry if I am teaching granny to suck eggs and you know all this, I just thought it might be worth mentioning.


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## Black_Horse_White (5 October 2011)

No advice sorry, just wanted to say which ever you decide it's the right choice for you & your horses. (((hugs)))


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## angrovestud (5 October 2011)

Silly question but when the vet says its not healing properly is it still healing all be it at a slower rate I am sure as shes in foal and 6 months the foal will be making more demands on her now. I would be feeding her Iron rich foods just to help the healing along could she be aneamic?


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## Super_Kat (5 October 2011)

Keep her going for another 5 months and get in contact with the foaling bank (as long as you can keep her comfortable of course).


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## scarymare (5 October 2011)

Thanks for all the replies.  Thankfully she is remaining very positive in herself and not objecting to the box rest.  I think the problem is the sheer scale of the injury and a smell which is distinctly gangrenous (had a cat RTA with this).  If she was down in herself this would be a very easy decision.  I just dont want to carry on and on and put here through any more if it all ends in tears anyway.  Vet says its my call which of course it is.  He says if she were his he would try (but then he's not facing having to get a 5 figure bank loan).  Interesting point about the feeding though.  She's on ad-lib haylage and D & H pasture mix - I'll look for supplements now.


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## AshTay (5 October 2011)

angrovestud said:



			Silly question but when the vet says its not healing properly is it still healing all be it at a slower rate I am sure as shes in foal and 6 months the foal will be making more demands on her now. I would be feeding her Iron rich foods just to help the healing along could she be aneamic?
		
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I was thinking this. When my old horse did a tendon I was told it wasn't healing properly and PTS was presented as the sensible option. It certainly took longer than expected but it got there (or something like) in the end.

But if it's healing so slowly that she's likely to re-injure it during birthing or when the new foal is born then maybe the sad but right thing to do is to let her go. 

I know nothing about the success or long term implications of a foal being "adopted" so can't comment on that.


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## Allover (5 October 2011)

I was wondering whether it may be a good idea to post this in the breeding section. They should be able to give you good advice about your mare and what she can and cant have being a broodie. Best of luck, i hope it turns out well in the end. Out of interest did she do any damage to the tendons etc?


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## Meowy Catkin (5 October 2011)

I'm so very, very sorry that you are in this awful position. I'm sure that you and the Vet will do the right thing, whatever that is.


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## scarymare (5 October 2011)

Allover said:



			I was wondering whether it may be a good idea to post this in the breeding section. They should be able to give you good advice about your mare and what she can and cant have being a broodie. Best of luck, i hope it turns out well in the end. Out of interest did she do any damage to the tendons etc?
		
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No, she didn't which makes it even more gutting.


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## charlie76 (5 October 2011)

Our mare has taken over a year for hers to heal. It then healed with massive proud flesh so That had to be cut off and we had to start again.its almost healed now. Three weeks is not all That long.good luck. X


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## hollyandivy123 (5 October 2011)

ok bear in mind i tend to think outside the box, 

i have a couple of suggestions 

1, just wondering if a swab has been taken from wound, if you can target the antibiotics to the correct bacteria this will help with the infection control better. 

2,
also other things to consider are the type of wound dressing, maybe trying something like this

http://global.smith-nephew.com/master/ACTICOAT_27517.htm

3. also maybe the use of medical maggots, http://www.monarchlabs.com/veterinarians.htm

which i know is a usa website but you can get this sort of thing in the uk. they eat the rotton flesh you just have to make sure you count the number on and count the number off


hope you find the correct treatment for this mare


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## Zebedee (5 October 2011)

Are there any signs at all of epithelialization (fresh pink tissue growth) at the wound edges? If there are then it may be worth trying some Vulketan. My mare had an slow healing wound, but once we started using it she was able to be turned out less than a week later.
I have to say I wouldn't go down the skin graft lines. but this decsion is going to be made even more heartrending by the presence of the unborn foal. For the foal to have any chance at all it needs to a minimum of 300 days, & even then it would be very touch and go. I've been present when a premature foal has been cut out of a dead mare & whilst it wasn't a nice thing to have to witness, we did save the foal. It was almost full term though. 
I'd be looking at seeing if there was anyway the mare could be kept comfortable enough to continue without the skin grafts. Long term bute could be an option - I foaled a mare who was on two bute a day for the whole of the gestation period due to a really deep overreach that refused to heal & the foal was fine. (The mare was PTS once the foal was weaned though)
Feel free to PM anytime if you just need a sounding board, or someone to chat to who'll understand how hard this must be.


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## Black_Horse_White (5 October 2011)

I was going to suggest maggots but didn't think they were used on animals.


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## scarymare (5 October 2011)

hollyandivy123 said:



			ok bear in mind i tend to think outside the box, 

i have a couple of suggestions 

1, just wondering if a swab has been taken from wound, if you can target the antibiotics to the correct bacteria this will help with the infection control better. 

2,
also other things to consider are the type of wound dressing, maybe trying something like this

http://global.smith-nephew.com/master/ACTICOAT_27517.htm

3. also maybe the use of medical maggots, http://www.monarchlabs.com/veterinarians.htm

which i know is a usa website but you can get this sort of thing in the uk. they eat the rotton flesh you just have to make sure you count the number on and count the number off


hope you find the correct treatment for this mare 

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Thanks - I too think out of the box and have invested 100's in various dressings etc, none of which my vet wishes to use.  If the snow comes early I could always turn her out I suppose, that's what would happen in countries like Austrailia/Argentina I think


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## hollyandivy123 (5 October 2011)

yep you can use maggots on animals, it would work the same way


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## Archiepoo (5 October 2011)

following on from hollyandivy ive heard marvellous thing about honey poulticing for wounds then trimming the proud flesh weekly ,its slow but really works. (((big hugs)))


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## cremedemonthe (5 October 2011)

As hollyandivy has suggested, use the dressings containg silver which kills all the bugs


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## scarymare (5 October 2011)

Zebedee said:



			Are there any signs at all of epithelialization (fresh pink tissue growth) at the wound edges? If there are then it may be worth trying some Vulketan. My mare had an slow healing wound, but once we started using it she was able to be turned out less than a week later.
I have to say I wouldn't go down the skin graft lines. but this decsion is going to be made even more heartrending by the presence of the unborn foal. For the foal to have any chance at all it needs to a minimum of 300 days, & even then it would be very touch and go. I've been present when a premature foal has been cut out of a dead mare & whilst it wasn't a nice thing to have to witness, we did save the foal. It was almost full term though. 
I'd be looking at seeing if there was anyway the mare could be kept comfortable enough to continue without the skin grafts. Long term bute could be an option - I foaled a mare who was on two bute a day for the whole of the gestation period due to a really deep overreach that refused to heal & the foal was fine. (The mare was PTS once the foal was weaned though)
Feel free to PM anytime if you just need a sounding board, or someone to chat to who'll understand how hard this must be.
		
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Thanks - I may just do that - its so frustrating.  No sign of significant granulisation/epithelia formation as yet.  I suppose the foal wont know anything anway - its already been sedated 6 times.


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## be positive (5 October 2011)

You dont say what treatment is currently being tried, has a swab been taken?
i had a mare that wouldnt heal and she needed a different antibiotic,immediate improvement.
As said three weeks is not long for such an injury,I would think it is way too early for skin grafts , I read on here not long ago,but cannot remember where exactly, about salt water spraying for larger areas could be worth finding out more.Vets tend to have a medical approach to everything and often thinking outside the box brings the solution when other routes are not helping.
The honey treatment is also worth trying, again not all vets will agree,but many do use it with excellent results.
If she is still well in herself it makes sense to continue treatment until either she is not happy or you have to spend silly money,I would not do that it does not make economic sense.


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## BentleyBelly (5 October 2011)

Have you read up on treatment with Manuka honey? I know very little about it but have heard amazing things, might be worth a google.


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## Merry Crisis (5 October 2011)

I would not go for the skin graft on the other hand I wouldnt shoot her either. Manuka honey is used at East Grinstead burns hospital with great results. I know its not cheap but give it a go. I think you have invested so much that it would be a shame to give up now. Good luck.


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## scarymare (5 October 2011)

lionman said:



			I would not go for the skin graft on the other hand I wouldnt shoot her either. Manuka honey is used at East Grinstead burns hospital with great results. I know its not cheap but give it a go. I think you have invested so much that it would be a shame to give up now. Good luck.
		
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I've got 12 tubes of medical grade Manuka Honey in my kitchen.  Vet sympathetic but says the injury is just too big.  There wasn't enough skin left to heal it.  TBH its outside every one's experience.  I think my first vets were relieved when I took her away.  The fact its on her hock is of course a huge issue.  All of the reasons I brought her as a broodie - huge movement, youth etc all seem to be conspiring against her really.  Her cup is half full though, and she's trying and its very difficult to shoot them when they are doing that.


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## stencilface (5 October 2011)

Well, I'd say if you have already bought the alternative treatments, then you may as well give them a go?  And I would really look into a supplement of some kind if you haven't already


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## scarymare (5 October 2011)

Stencilface said:



			Well, I'd say if you have already bought the alternative treatments, then you may as well give them a go?  And I would really look into a supplement of some kind if you haven't already 

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Agreed.  However she is a 16.3 WB and isn't that keen on anybody touching her unhock (understandably).  Before I changed vets I could manage to wash it with saline without mortal danger but wouldn't have been able to do more than that I'm afraid, and the more sedation she gets, the more chance of damage to the foal.  (I'm already calling it Junkie tbh - black humour I know).


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## leflynn (5 October 2011)

Try the honey, my Boy had a similar but much smaller loss of skin 2 and a half months ago (also lower down so easier to protect/cover).

This is it after a coupe of weeks of manuka honey dressing:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/redlaura/5978032570/

He had a skin graft a couple of weeks later (punch graft) and is now finally without bandages, the skin is growing and it's covered by a protective white (zinc?) spray.  It has healed amazingly and I know it's a lot smaller than yours but the honey/graft/zinc spray might be worth trying esp if you have it already.  It does take an awful length of time to heal as it has to heal outside in (hence why the skin graft can help as it also heals inside out and speeds it up).

Good luck in whatever you decide


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## sunshine19 (5 October 2011)

I've just had a look at your other post with the photo. 

My TB had exactly the same injury to his hock, almost de-gloved himself bar 1 inch of skin, many years ago. Unfortunately it wasn't a good outcome. Vet was excellent patched him up, he healed very slowly, left a huge scar, was never 100% sound. 

Lost him almost a year later due to him putting an excessive amount of weight on his front legs, to 'save' his injured hock. He had typical bad flat TB feet. Ended up with chronic pedal ostitis, deteriorated rapidly and never recovered.

Be guided by your vet.


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## Dancing Queen (5 October 2011)

You have had a lot of excellent advice on here. I wouldnt/couldnt PTS - I would try to see what more can be done - hasnt the vet said he would continue trying but its your call?

If Im reading this right - it boils down to the cost and expense? are you insured?


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## scarymare (5 October 2011)

Dancing Queen said:



			You have had a lot of excellent advice on here. I wouldnt/couldnt PTS - I would try to see what more can be done - hasnt the vet said he would continue trying but its your call?

If Im reading this right - it boils down to the cost and expense? are you insured?
		
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No, third party only, as most people with more than 2 I suspect, and ultimately there has to be an element of boiling down to cost.  Where is the cut off?  £10K... £15K?  I think the issue in my head is the foal, there are 2 lives here at stake but there has to be a limit surely.  The current (vet) option is graft at £silly or PTS.  I have another one which is to chuck out and let her take her chances, which I think might be fairer on both than PTS.


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## Amymay (5 October 2011)

Take some photo's of it tonight, so that we can compare the degree of healing....

I've seen some pretty hideous injuries come right, they just need time, and really careful handling.


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## Dancing Queen (5 October 2011)

scarymare said:



			No, third party only, as most people with more than 2 I suspect, and ultimately there has to be an element of boiling down to cost.  Where is the cut off?  £10K... £15K?  I think the issue in my head is the foal, there are 2 lives here at stake but there has to be a limit surely.  The current (vet) option is graft at £silly or PTS.  I have another one which is to chuck out and let her take her chances, which I think might be fairer on both than PTS.
		
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The foals life is why I *personally* would continue to persevere. How many Vets opinions have you had?


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## mturnbull (5 October 2011)

I followed your other post and have now read this one, I feel so sorry for what was an accident. My gut feeling is not to lose both of them as it has been a lot you have been through with them now. If you finish the pregnancy then re-asses the mare on her own, not thinking of another life as mentioned previously the foal may be able to find an 'adopted' mum. Good luck with everything and I really do hope things go up hill from now!


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## Andalusianlover (5 October 2011)

I cant see your pictures due to my old work computer but a couple of years ago my horse cut the inside of his hock down to the bone on wire.  The wound was approx the size of the palm of my hand.  His leg was bandaged for a couple of weeks but when it was allowed to be left open, the vet gave me a laser pointer pen and told me to use it on the outside edge of the wound for about 10 minutes per day, I was also given a white, lime based solution to put on every day which stopped any proud flesh growing.  The hair grew back and everything, today he has a very small scar which you wouldnt notice unless you went poking around for it!

Keep going with your mare!


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## scarymare (5 October 2011)

Dancing Queen said:



			The foals life is why I *personally* would continue to persevere. How many Vets opinions have you had?
		
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The original vet, the practice partner of the original vet (when I complained) and the new vet who is very highly regarded (3 opinions all different)  He has been in discussion with the University which is where the skin graft was suggested.  I just think that transporting her 200 miles for her to have (under general) skin removed from her shoulder and grafted onto a mobile (very) joint is too much and not just money.  My understanding is that once she moves into the last 3rd of her term then medication becomes (more) dangerous than before.  She currently has not granulous bed to graft too anyway.


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## leflynn (5 October 2011)

scarymare said:



			The original vet, the practice partner of the original vet (when I complained) and the new vet who is very highly regarded (3 opinions all different)  He has been in discussion with the University which is where the skin graft was suggested.  I just think that transporting her 200 miles for her to have (under general) skin removed from her shoulder and grafted onto a mobile (very) joint is too much and not just money.  My understanding is that once she moves into the last 3rd of her term then medication becomes (more) dangerous than before.  She currently has not granulous bed to graft too anyway.
		
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Is it not possible to do an alternative type of skin graft other than taking a whole piece of skin from one area and stitching it on the affected area?  It may be too large to consider other options but there are many ways of doing a skin graft?  Did they offer you any alternative methods?


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## FairyLights (5 October 2011)

I had to PTS a 5 year old because of a similar injury. We tried treatment but after about 2 weeks the wound stopped healing properly and the pony was getting very wound up about treatment and the sedative the vet had to give him was at maximum but he was still very agitated. It was very difficult at the time but was definately the right decision.


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## TheMule (5 October 2011)

The mare's welfare must come first and it sounds like the best thing for her now, given the vast expense which you don't have, would be to PTS


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## mulledwhine (5 October 2011)

Good luck!!

As has already been said, her body is busy growing her foal, and not one bit concerned about mending her, I went through the same while pregnant, a broken hand that should have mended it weeks took months.

I hope that when her body has finished developing her foal, and is then only putting weight on it, then her body can relax and start to mend her ( just what happened to me)

Make sure all her vit and mineral needs are met, silver and manuka honey dressingsmay help.

Again good luck or a 3 of you cx


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## FionaM12 (5 October 2011)

This is a desperately sad thread. Poor you, poor mare and foal. 

Don't feel you should apologize for it coming down to numbers, it does for most of in truth. Do what's right for yourself as well as your animals and that may be pts before you put too much of a burden on your own finances.

I know if my Mollie was so injured she was going to cost me £Ks I'd have to have her pts. After all, if we break the bank, they suffer too!

My heartfelt sympathies go to you. A dreadfully hard decision for you.


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## Lgd (5 October 2011)

Give the honey dressings a go for now. 
My mare had awful pressure sores and lymphangitis from a Robert jones bandage. The healing with medical honey dressings (probably same make as the tubes on your table) has been excellent. In a month a 2" x 4" pressure sore is down to two tiny 3mm ulcers and hair is growing back in.

If is smells yucky I would go for high dose penicillin as the bugs that cause that smell are usually very sensitive. It won't harm the foal as penicillin is safe in pregnancy. Metronidazole gel will also help treat the infection locally - the amount absorbed will not be detrimental to mare or foal.

I will PM you my contact details as my 'day job' often involves advising on the management of some horrible wounds in humans. There are a lot of cutting edge treatment modalities that are not in the vet lexicon as yet that could potentially help.
if you have pics send them to me - the treatment that can help in some really dire wounds is actually fairly cheap and sounds as though this wound comes into the type that it works on. I can send you links to some of the papers on its use that your vet could look at and can advise on how to prepare the stuff.


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## Springs (5 October 2011)

Hi, We have experanced similar issues in breeding! 

Time is a very good healer! 

As some one has mentioned in the previous posts look hard at her feed. I had one mare with horfic injuries and it was touch and go if she was going to survive, she stood in the same spot on the yard for 4 days with food and water been carried to her, by accident, it was the weekend and we were running low on feed we started to feed her some of the stallions Blue Chip dynamic, I am convinced that in this situation it helped along with the hydrating the wounds. mare survived and went on to have a fab foal (Springs Spirit). 



Good Luck


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## Clippy (5 October 2011)

How absolutely agonising for you. I can't add anything to what's already been said but I wish you well


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## Marilyn (5 October 2011)

Have you tried Meditek Dressings from Fabtek Solutions?  (I just read the post about wound dressings with silver) they've had great results and there are some before and afters on their website


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## flyingfeet (5 October 2011)

Might not be possible but do you have any spas near you that do salt water?

Here are some case studies 

Deglove - might be the best to give you hope! 
http://www.equinespa.com/documents/ECBSpaCaseStudy7-WoundDeglove_000.pdf


Wire cut
http://www.equinespa.com/documents/ECBSpaCaseStudy6-WoundWireCut_000.pdf


Hock injury
http://www.equinespa.com/documents/ECBSpaCaseStudy2-WoundHock_001.pdf


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## xTrooperx (5 October 2011)

haven't yet read all post but poss a idea.. if your mare is kept long enough to foal would the mare and foal bank help? they may be able to find a suitable mare to bring up your foal, i dont know the in and outs of how it works but might be worth a quick look.


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## JanetGeorge (5 October 2011)

It's a very nasty wound - but I HAVE seen worse - and in exactly the same place.  Thankfully it was in Australia where you can get Lotagen concentrate solution!  This stuff is brilliant and I would be fairly sure you could get it online - see http://www.animalcare.net.au/p/853160/lotagen-concentrate---1l.html  Don't bother with the little bottles - you'll need to continue treating it daily for at least 3 months

It's not cheap - but you actually don't use much in a daily treatment - I would estimate no more than 10 mls per treatment.  The horrible smell is necrotic (dead) flesh and you need to get rid of this.  Lotagen does it better than anything else I know but until you can get some, I'd be washing the wound daily with dilute Hibiscrub (then rinsing thoroughly!!), patting dry with paper towel and then slather it in Dermagel or something similar.  Snip off any obviously dead bits.  There is NO way it will heal at all - let alone properly - until you get rid of the necrotic tissue!

3 weeks is NO time at all to see a start of proper healing in a wound like this - far too soon to be writing her off or considering expensive skin grafts!!

The similar - but worse - injury I treated in Oz was gaping wide open with the bone clearly visible - though thankfully with no damage to the periosteum.  It took about 3 months for new flesh to granulate and fill the space - and within 6 months there was just a fine line scar!!  The ONLY treatment it had was daily Lotagen!  I also healed up an equally extensive wound to a horse's chest - which was so deep you could fit four or 5 fists inside it!  Again, healed with no proud flesh and minimal scarring - just with Lotagen!  Both horses returned to work in less than 12 months!

My own vet used Lotagen when working in Australia and agreed with me that there is NOTHING as good available in this country.  I believe it IS available in Germany if we have any German residents on the forum????


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## Maesfen (5 October 2011)

scarymare said:



			No, third party only, as most people with more than 2 I suspect, and ultimately there has to be an element of boiling down to cost.  Where is the cut off?  £10K... £15K?  I think the issue in my head is the foal, there are 2 lives here at stake but there has to be a limit surely.  The current (vet) option is graft at £silly or PTS.  I have another one which is to chuck out and let her take her chances, which I think might be fairer on both than PTS.
		
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That is what I would do, kill or cure, pardon the pun.

Had a look at your earlier pics and I've seen worse from hunting injuries that have healed well.
I'd try a different AB, buy tins and tins of proper terramycin spray, use that and turn her out, spray 2 - 3 times daily.  If you don't want to use that, use honey or protocon, also feed her comfrey, they don't call it knit-bone for nothing.  Give her a couple of months of good grazing and hay/haylage but don't let her get too heavy; see what happens.  It won't cost you another fortune but it might just save her so you can at least save her foal.


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## MissTyc (5 October 2011)

My gelding had a similar wire injury - skin then sloughed off his entire hind YUK . We injected antibiotics twice a day for ages and on the wound itself used the highest grade manuka honey three times a day. He did this about a year ago and it's still not pretty and will always be an ugly leg I think but he's sound on it and no longer any risk of infection


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## irish_only (5 October 2011)

I'm a firm believer that they tell you when they've had enough, and by the sounds of it this is not the message she is giving you. Completely understand the money issue and would support you in not spending money you haven't got on this. I'm a huge fan of salt water, and would also second trying other suggested alternative treatments.
Good luck, I really hope you win this battle. x x


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## Equilibrium Ireland (5 October 2011)

Scarymare,

I am so sorry for what you are going through. I think you are handling this situation very well considering what's at stake. My broodie, who hasn't been put in foal in 2 years, is a member of my family. I have had her for 9 years. But if I was facing the exact same thing I probably would put her down. Because as an owner I have to make decisions not only for her but my family too. Just because you are not willing to get yourself into huge debt does not mean you haven't tried and that you aren't doing your best. If it was a guaranteed success, then of course by all means work away. But sadly it isn't. And then shipping her for the surgery is more stress on her too. 

For me, it's always my mare. I don't "know" the foal yet and I can't bogged down with well it's 2 lives at stake. When you bred her she was healthy and then crap happened. No way of predicting that. So I would never keep my mare going in a situation that was bad for her just to save the foal. But that's probably just me.

I have no good advice on what you should be doing. I have been blessed so far in not having to make these decisions. But as long as I continue to own horses, it will happen. I just have to look at what the horse can take and the financial aspect as well. You see sometimes I feel fortunate not to have loads of disposable income. You know why? Because it is never a money issue and horses get put through things that maybe they really shouldn't because we can afford to. They are not cats and dogs which can handle these types of miracle cures better. Yeah sure we hear about the good stories of horses that triumphed but very few of the stories in which it never really did get better and horse had to be put to sleep anyway even if a year later. And I know there are many stories on here saying it can and will work out, look. But seriously every wound is different even if it looks the same or similar. 

So right now you are wearing the worst cap possible. The responsible horse owner decision cap. All I can offer you is hugs and cyber support. This is really tough.

Hugs,
Terri


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## Tickles (5 October 2011)

As someone who has just hit 4 figures of vets bills on a second-hand-non-breeding fluffy rodent you have both my sympathies and also a little 'get real'ness. :-S

Based on the numbers you probably wouldn't have been breeding from a broken mare (unless with fantastic breeding/comp record) in this climate anyway. So, unless this is a business for you, which it doesn't sound like it is, that isn't necessarily a helpful equation to make big decisions on.

There is loads of good advice on the healing side here and I wish you and your mare the best of luck.

On the numbers, well, as an example, four (I think you said you have two or three horses plus the unborn foal) lots of colic surgery would be how much?

Just an example, but there are plenty of other things you'd probably want to treat that are expensive too.

If you can't afford to fork out for that, and wouldn't want to PTS for cost reasons, then perhaps best to insure where you can and maybe consider selling one or more of the others to fund whatever treatment turns out to be necessary for mare in foal?

Animals are very expensive in unpredictable chunks. Insurance premiums help with spreading that cost into regular managable portions. So, you pay for the service.

If you take the riskier but cheaper option (as I do with aforementioned rodent) of not insuring sometimes you have to bite the bullet and write the cheque.

Good luck whatever you decide.


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## cumbriamax (5 October 2011)

fingers crossed for you!


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## SophieLouBee (5 October 2011)

I read that you were feeding pasture mix and adlib hay. If this were me, I'd be shoving every vit/min/supp to help with healing and to aid her in carrying the foal down her. Google them and buy them!

I like you couldn't afford that amount of money, but i'd damn well try every other option until her wellbeing was being put at risk/she was suffering.

Sounds like a carppy situation and I really feel for you


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## Weezy (5 October 2011)

I would like to know what ill effects the sedations so far could have on the foal.  If there are any possible side effects then I think you need to take that into account - no point saving a non-viable animal anyway IMO.

Also think hard about going into debt for this - I know I wouldn't, as hard as it is.


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## abina (5 October 2011)

scarymare said:



			Thanks for all the replies.  Thankfully she is remaining very positive in herself and not objecting to the box rest.  I think the problem is the sheer scale of the injury and a smell which is distinctly gangrenous (had a cat RTA with this).  If she was down in herself this would be a very easy decision.  I just dont want to carry on and on and put here through any more if it all ends in tears anyway.  Vet says its my call which of course it is.  He says if she were his he would try (but then he's not facing having to get a 5 figure bank loan).  Interesting point about the feeding though.  She's on ad-lib haylage and D & H pasture mix - I'll look for supplements now.
		
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if your mare is remaining positive then it might be worth a try, and I fully understand the PTS option. after all we must do what is best. I would check that everything is ok with the foal first, as if that is not developing as expected then you will only end up with more heartache (and bills) if the wound is smelling this would indicate that things are not 100%. Three weeks is not a long time and a thought might be 'maggot' therapy this worked fantastic on my own leg and I have used it on my mare who had a nasty cut caused by bolting into a metal road sign. 

again feed would be a worth looking into - have a word with the feed help lines, and defo get in touch with Foaling bank they will be so helpful and have a wealth of knowledge. 

whatever happens best of luck and fondest regards in this awful place. x


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## fatpiggy (6 October 2011)

I'm a big fan of manuka honey too and don't forget you can add it to her feed for extra help. I know only too well what it is like to have a horse which is a big financial burden.  My vet told me this week I can't have the special discount any more that was arranged with the manufacturer, so I've got  to find about £100 per month extra - my total drug bill will now be around £500 per month. To cap it all horsey is 28, retired and so doesn't even earn her keep! I could write a book on how to live on fresh air and charity shop bargains.  At the end of day, it can only be your choice, the same as it is mine.  Most people would say I was insane, but I've got the rest of my life to have holidays, new shoes and to miss her in.


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## scarymare (6 October 2011)

fatpiggy said:



			I'm a big fan of manuka honey too and don't forget you can add it to her feed for extra help. I know only too well what it is like to have a horse which is a big financial burden.  My vet told me this week I can't have the special discount any more that was arranged with the manufacturer, so I've got  to find about £100 per month extra - my total drug bill will now be around £500 per month. To cap it all horsey is 28, retired and so doesn't even earn her keep! I could write a book on how to live on fresh air and charity shop bargains.  At the end of day, it can only be your choice, the same as it is mine.  Most people would say I was insane, but I've got the rest of my life to have holidays, new shoes and to miss her in.
		
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That is really inspirational fatpiggy.  She cornered me and tried to boot me this morning when I went to reattach her bandage tape.  Really not sure if this is a good sign or not.  I suspect her returning to being a grumpy witch maybe positive?  Who knows but vet coming tomorrow to change bandage and reassess so I'll try and get some pics for everyone.  Will also gradually change her feeding regime.  I'm just trying to get her from climbing the walls of her stable, hence the pasture mix.


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## Circe (6 October 2011)

I'll second lotagen if you can get hold of some in the UK.
Ive seen really good results in all stages of wound healing, from no healing to extensive proud flesh that wasn't  responding to other dressings.

I do hope your mare shows some signs of improving, its a horrible decision to have to make.
kx


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## scarymare (6 October 2011)

Circe said:



			I'll second lotagen if you can get hold of some in the UK.
Ive seen really good results in all stages of wound healing, from no healing to extensive proud flesh that wasn't  responding to other dressings.

I do hope your mare shows some signs of improving, its a horrible decision to have to make.
kx
		
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It seems to be available here - have just googled it.  Certainly worth a try once I can get close enough to the wound to do it - but there's the rub I suppose - I can't tell her that I'm trying to help - she just thinks I'm trying to hurt her.


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## Tinsel Trouble (6 October 2011)

I might have lost track along this thread but have you spoken to Joanna Vardon of the National Foaling Bank?! She is lovely -but prepared to be barked at- she can come accross as a bit fierce!! 

She has so many years of experiance in breeding i'd be tempted to give her a call for an opinion on the future of the foal and the practical effects on it! She'll have been through this a hundred times before! 

I'd also say that if you're mare is fighting you, then she's fighting the problem too! That's a really good sign!


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## scarymare (6 October 2011)

Trouble4125 said:



			I might have lost track along this thread but have you spoken to Joanna Vardon of the National Foaling Bank?! She is lovely -but prepared to be barked at- she can come accross as a bit fierce!! 

She has so many years of experiance in breeding i'd be tempted to give her a call for an opinion on the future of the foal and the practical effects on it! She'll have been through this a hundred times before! 

I'd also say that if you're mare is fighting you, then she's fighting the problem too! That's a really good sign!
		
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Not yet but I will - mare defo fighting me.  I was late up on Sunday (7am!) and boy did she let me (and the neighbours ) know about it with some very persistent whinnying.


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## Tinsel Trouble (6 October 2011)

You need to get some rest or your head will blow this out of proportion and you'll make bad judgements. When a horse is ill it's imperative that you can cope with the situation and sleep deprivation will not help you!


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## Queenbee (6 October 2011)

abina said:



			if your mare is remaining positive then it might be worth a try, and I fully understand the PTS option. after all we must do what is best. I would check that everything is ok with the foal first, as if that is not developing as expected then you will only end up with more heartache (and bills) if the wound is smelling this would indicate that things are not 100%. Three weeks is not a long time and a thought might be 'maggot' therapy this worked fantastic on my own leg and I have used it on my mare who had a nasty cut caused by bolting into a metal road sign. 

again feed would be a worth looking into - have a word with the feed help lines, and defo get in touch with Foaling bank they will be so helpful and have a wealth of knowledge. 

whatever happens best of luck and fondest regards in this awful place. x
		
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I was thinking exactly the same about the 'maggot therapy' last night.  OP I really feel for you, and I haven't even seen the pictures because work wont let me access photobucket, but give your mare a hug from us all.  There are a lot of wise words and good ideas on here, I don't think you are at the end of the road yet   good luck.


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## Queenbee (6 October 2011)

Also I just did a search on google for an injury that I saw on a horse that was treated with manuka honey, I never knew it was evelyns horse, scroll down the thread (pg 1) if you want a bit of inspiration

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=450744


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## candyflosspot (6 October 2011)

Really sorry to hear about your mare . Have you considered allowing her to "self medicate" with aromatherapy oils? Or perhaps with plants that have healing properties?

These sites might be worth a look at ..

http://www.naturallyequine.com/herbalindex.shtml

http://www.healinganimals.org/pg-about.html

Got everything crossed that this works out for you


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## Amymay (6 October 2011)

OP it also may be worth pming Henry Horn - as she had a horse with a bad injury on which she used Manuka Honey with great success.

I can't remember how sever the injury was though.

Another poster on here - some years back - also had a horse with more or less the same injury as your mare.  Completely recovered.


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## scarymare (6 October 2011)

amymay said:



			OP it also may be worth pming Henry Horn - as she had a horse with a bad injury on which she used Manuka Honey with great success.

I can't remember how sever the injury was though.

Another poster on here - some years back - also had a horse with more or less the same injury as your mare.  Completely recovered.
		
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Thanks Amymay - she has a lot on her side as she is young (8) and fit (or was so).  Trouble is her body is making all the wrong choices and just building her foal.  Nightmare.  I do think the honey will work but its miles away from her letting me touch it - catch 22 again.


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## TallyHo123 (6 October 2011)

Black_Horse_White said:



			No advice sorry, just wanted to say which ever you decide it's the right choice for you & your horses. (((hugs)))
		
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Ditto this.
Is there nobody who you could give them too who would take over costs etc. if they are going to turn out to be nice little horses?


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## Amymay (6 October 2011)

scarymare said:



			Thanks Amymay - she has a lot on her side as she is young (8) and fit (or was so).  Trouble is her body is making all the wrong choices and just building her foal.  Nightmare.  I do think the honey will work but its miles away from her letting me touch it - catch 22 again.
		
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Well we're all sending healing vibes, and hoping for absolutely the best outcome for you and her ((((((((    )))))))


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## itsonlyme (6 October 2011)

I'm really sorry for you all   I second the cold/salt water hydrotherapy spas.  I've used them with amazing success.  A few links below (look at the pics)  Just random ones from Google Images

http://www.panamasporthorses.co.uk/hydrotherapy/theraputic_use.htm

http://www.panamaspa.com/casestudies.htm

http://www.beaverhall.co.uk/testimonies.htm

There are rehab yards who take the horse on livery and treat them whilst they're there.  Or you can just take them for a session and take them straight home again (saving livery costs).  I know it wont be cheap, but maybe worth phoning around and getting prices?  Maybe someone could use her as a case study to promote their spa and offer a discount??  Alternatively, are you near a beach??...

Good luck whatever you decide though.  Take care . x


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## china (6 October 2011)

for applying the honey, maybe something on an extendable arm so you are a safe distance. I wouldnt be doing it in a stable but on a non concrete area outside, like on rubber mats so she doesnt slip. Its very easy to get cornered in a stable. Or i hate to say it, but some kind of hobble while you are seeing to the wound? you have to be cruel to be kind in some cases.


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## Spring Feather (6 October 2011)

How long does the vet indicate the bandages are to be left on for?  I'd go down the manuka honey route too and leave the wound uncovered.  Covering is okay for a period of time but I've found that the sooner you can leave a wound uncovered, this is when the real healing starts to pick up quickly.  PTS wouldn't be a consideration for me at this early stage.  I would be looking closer into how to manage the wound differently and if you use manuka honey the financial outlay will be seriously reduced.


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## scarymare (6 October 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			How long does the vet indicate the bandages are to be left on for?  I'd go down the manuka honey route too and leave the wound uncovered.  Covering is okay for a period of time but I've found that the sooner you can leave a wound uncovered, this is when the real healing starts to pick up quickly.  PTS wouldn't be a consideration for me at this early stage.  I would be looking closer into how to manage the wound differently and if you use manuka honey the financial outlay will be seriously reduced.
		
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I totally agree but have already changed vets so its really difficult.  I think he wants the bandages on for months.  I really really wish i was back in Windsor and Simon Knapp was my vet because then at least I'd know that the treatment was correct.  My current vet is undoubtedly the best horse vet in Aberdeenshire but.......


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## Goldenstar (6 October 2011)

poor you it's an awful situation to be in, there is lots of good advice here read it and try to take some time time to find a away ahead, thinking of you what ever you decide, the thing I would add I have had a bone graft and a skin graft is more painful don't think I would put  my horse through it even if cost was not a problem.


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## Queenbee (6 October 2011)

scarymare said:



			I totally agree but have already changed vets so its really difficult.  I think he wants the bandages on for months.  I really really wish i was back in Windsor and Simon Knapp was my vet because then at least I'd know that the treatment was correct.  My current vet is undoubtedly the best horse vet in Aberdeenshire but.......
		
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Scarymare, did you have a look at the link to an old thread on H&H about Manuka honey and a pretty graphic and horrendous injury?  well worth a peek.  Also can I ask someone to post the image of scarymares mares injury on here, I can't go on the website for here so have no idea what this injury is like and would be interested to see.

SM:  
I would be doing everything, I like the idea of mixing up approaches but remember that natural remedies (herbs and stuff) can have contraindications with normal medication and also are not safe for anyone whos pregnant, so check these out carefully for your mare if you decide to go down the route of herbs and aromatherapy.


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## Spring Feather (6 October 2011)

scarymare said:



			I totally agree but have already changed vets so its really difficult.  I think he wants the bandages on for months.  I really really wish i was back in Windsor and Simon Knapp was my vet because then at least I'd know that the treatment was correct.  My current vet is undoubtedly the best horse vet in Aberdeenshire but.......
		
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I understand that and it's always difficult when you have a vet who might not be the easiest or most flexible person to work with.  You know if I was you I'd be sorely tempted to email your previous vet and give a quick run down (with photos) of what's been tried so far.  I am a "think outside the box" type person too so I would not be managing it in the way your current vet has prescribed and I've handled a lot of serious wounds similar to your horse's where all of them have healed up well and relatively quickly by comparison.  It sounds like you're just going round and round and not really getting anywhere fast.  Not to trivialise it but in the grand scale of things it really doesn't look like that bad a wound and it's one that had I wouldn't have had any worries about it not healing.  The more I hear, the more I realise just how lucky I am that I have a vet who is keen to take my thoughts and suggestions into consideration and is so willing to work with me.  I do hope your mare recovers and that next spring when you have a little baby wandering around that this will be a distant memory.  Lots of good luck and healing vibes from me.


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## Spring Feather (6 October 2011)

queenbee said:



			SM:  
I would be doing everything, I like the idea of mixing up approaches but remember that natural remedies (herbs and stuff) can have contraindications with normal medication and also are not safe for anyone whos pregnant, so check these out carefully for your mare if you decide to go down the route of herbs and aromatherapy.
		
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Excellent point queenbee about the herbal remedies.  I winced when I read that.  Sorry no disrespect to the poster suggesting it, it's just with broodmares you have to be so careful.


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## Queenbee (6 October 2011)

scarymare said:



			I totally agree but have already changed vets so its really difficult.  I think he wants the bandages on for months.  I really really wish i was back in Windsor and Simon Knapp was my vet because then at least I'd know that the treatment was correct.  My current vet is undoubtedly the best horse vet in Aberdeenshire but.......
		
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I know how you feel, my whippet slammed the door on our springers tail at christmas and it had to be docked, the vets bandaged it up so tight and kept bandaging it, it became horrid and the just kept advising to clean and rebandage.  He would have lost his tail, it was just eating into the flesh and not healing, in the end we told the vet we wanted it treated with hydrogen peroxide to get rid of the horrible stuff and left to breath, not be smothered.  That was the turning point.  I am not saying you should use Hydrogen peroxide  but I am saying  that with gilly, I really believe that if it hadnt been smothered in bandages and had been allowed to breath, he would not have had any trouble with it healing.


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## binkymerlin (6 October 2011)

nothing to say apart from sorry to hear of your situation. what a bloody shame :-( please exaust every possible thing to try. atleast you know you have done absolutly everything you could of. keep us posted and i wish you well x


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## Queenbee (6 October 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			I understand that and it's always difficult when you have a vet who might not be the easiest or most flexible person to work with.  You know if I was you I'd be sorely tempted to email your previous vet and give a quick run down (with photos) of what's been tried so far.  I am a "think outside the box" type person too so I would not be managing it in the way your current vet has prescribed and I've handled a lot of serious wounds similar to your horse's where all of them have healed up well and relatively quickly by comparison.  It sounds like you're just going round and round and not really getting anywhere fast.  Not to trivialise it but in the grand scale of things it really doesn't look like that bad a wound and it's one that had I wouldn't have had any worries about it not healing.  The more I hear, the more I realise just how lucky I am that I have a vet who is keen to take my thoughts and suggestions into consideration and is so willing to work with me.  I do hope your mare recovers and that next spring when you have a little baby wandering around that this will be a distant memory.  Lots of good luck and healing vibes from me.
		
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bit of mutual grooming going on here but an excellent point by SF, I too would contact your previous vets, and guage their opinion.  Also you can see by my post about my springers tail that I am a bit of a 'think outside the box person' too vets know a lot of stuff about a lot of stuff, but they do not know everything


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## amage (6 October 2011)

I mentioned on your last post I think about trying Covidien Anti-Microbial dressings. They are expensive but really worth a try...they stay on for about a week which will lessen the intrusion to the mare and may help her cope with treatment. The horse we used them on was on a one way ticket to PTS...he had too much life in him for that so we went to a new vet. She was amazing and has done alot of the consults via email pics as she is 2hrs away. We were still not sure we could save him but we got stuck in and it has worked...he started back on the walker two days ago and will be ridden out from next week. If all stays right he will run after Christmas.


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## scarymare (6 October 2011)

amage said:



			I mentioned on your last post I think about trying Covidien Anti-Microbial dressings. They are expensive but really worth a try...they stay on for about a week which will lessen the intrusion to the mare and may help her cope with treatment. The horse we used them on was on a one way ticket to PTS...he had too much life in him for that so we went to a new vet. She was amazing and has done alot of the consults via email pics as she is 2hrs away. We were still not sure we could save him but we got stuck in and it has worked...he started back on the walker two days ago and will be ridden out from next week. If all stays right he will run after Christmas.
		
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I am so pleased for you - inspirational story.  The dressings used atm are silver alginate ones which have their own merits.  I guess I'll have to press my vet to look at other options.


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## frostie652 (6 October 2011)

fatpiggy said:



			I'm a big fan of manuka honey too and don't forget you can add it to her feed for extra help. I know only too well what it is like to have a horse which is a big financial burden.  My vet told me this week I can't have the special discount any more that was arranged with the manufacturer, so I've got  to find about £100 per month extra - my total drug bill will now be around £500 per month. To cap it all horsey is 28, retired and so doesn't even earn her keep! I could write a book on how to live on fresh air and charity shop bargains.  At the end of day, it can only be your choice, the same as it is mine.  Most people would say I was insane, but I've got the rest of my life to have holidays, new shoes and to miss her in.
		
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wow. you just made me cry with that last sentence x


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## scarymare (6 October 2011)

queenbee said:



			I know how you feel, my whippet slammed the door on our springers tail at christmas and it had to be docked, the vets bandaged it up so tight and kept bandaging it, it became horrid and the just kept advising to clean and rebandage.  He would have lost his tail, it was just eating into the flesh and not healing, in the end we told the vet we wanted it treated with hydrogen peroxide to get rid of the horrible stuff and left to breath, not be smothered.  That was the turning point.  I am not saying you should use Hydrogen peroxide  but I am saying  that with gilly, I really believe that if it hadnt been smothered in bandages and had been allowed to breath, he would not have had any trouble with it healing.
		
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So agree with you.  The main problem with leaving it uncovered is that were the last rubbish vets stitched it (badly) there is a 'pocket' of gapping skin at the bottom of the wound.  This gets filled with s*** (literally).  I have told the vet that i think he should cut it off.  He is loathe to do so though as expected (past tense) this to grow up the wound.  The pocket is still 'viable' so I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.  He also makes the point that when there is such a huge amount of uncovered flesh - why would you want to cut more off (the wound doesn't meet by 4 inches initially - more than 6 now.  Nightmare again


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## ILuvCowparsely (6 October 2011)

sorry havent read all the posts.

  is she kept at home or equine hospital ??

 hospital she would get more specialist care     depends on if she insured or not 

 are you near glasgow equine vets ??? they carry one where vets stop  they take in the hard cases  and give them a second chance.



 when my mare ripped her knee cap off we used jelonet

and dermasol which speeds healing


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## Auslander (6 October 2011)

I thought I'd already posted on here - but obviously not. Get in touch with Georgie Hollis at Intelligent Woundcare. I told her about this thread, and I know she tried to reply, but was having technical difficulties. She is just brilliant, and will be able to give you really good advice. http://www.intelligentwoundcare.com/#!contact


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## Tinseltoes (6 October 2011)

In 1989 a vet gave me hydrogen peroxide to use on a  puncture wound,worked wonders.


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## ILuvCowparsely (6 October 2011)

have you got any up date pictures???


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## abina (6 October 2011)

scarymare said:



			I totally agree but have already changed vets so its really difficult.  I think he wants the bandages on for months.  I really really wish i was back in Windsor and Simon Knapp was my vet because then at least I'd know that the treatment was correct.  My current vet is undoubtedly the best horse vet in Aberdeenshire but.......
		
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If you have so much faith in your old vet why not email him with some pics and all the details and see what feed back he can give. Anything is worth a try.


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## Dovorian (6 October 2011)

Is it possible to hire a crush (or make one?) just to allow safe treatment to get underway?


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## Queenbee (6 October 2011)

scarymare said:



			So agree with you.  The main problem with leaving it uncovered is that were the last rubbish vets stitched it (badly) there is a 'pocket' of gapping skin at the bottom of the wound.  This gets filled with s*** (literally).  I have told the vet that i think he should cut it off.  He is loathe to do so though as expected (past tense) this to grow up the wound.  The pocket is still 'viable' so I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.  He also makes the point that when there is such a huge amount of uncovered flesh - why would you want to cut more off (the wound doesn't meet by 4 inches initially - more than 6 now.  Nightmare again
		
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Scarymare:  can you not discuss with your vet the option of sticking a drain in the bottom of this pocket of skin you help the yuckiness drain out?  Sure he should be able to make a small incision and fix a small tube in to help keep it draining from the bottom to enable it to heal top down (if that makes sense).

http://www.tpub.com/content/armymedical/MD0906/MD09060189.htm


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## candyflosspot (6 October 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			Excellent point queenbee about the herbal remedies.  I winced when I read that.  Sorry no disrespect to the poster suggesting it, it's just with broodmares you have to be so careful.
		
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None taken . Can i ask why this is then?


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## Alexart (6 October 2011)

Had a look at your photo from your other post - not as bad as I thought it was going to be - just an awkward place!!  I've had 2 horses one with a very similar injury to yours, it was at the top of his forearm - de-gloved an area the size of a dinner plate - and it was only a 4 month old TB!  He did it downwards too so had a big flap hanging down, the vet initially stitched it but not surprisingly it broke down within a day so I just cut it off as it was dead anyway.  It took an awful lot of dressings and Intrasite gel and about 6 months of keeping it clean with special dressings and getting any dead gunk off it everyday until it started to bleed - cost a bomb - about £600 or more, but he was back out in the field after 3 weeks to help it keep mobile.  All that is left now is a tiny patch about the size of a penny of white hair.  He was on antibiotics for 10 days and that was it.

The other one we had was again a foal, every few years we get an accident magnet!, who got a back leg, and how he did it I'm not sure but his head too!!, stuck in stock fence and basically de-gloved down to the bone the whole of his rear cannon bone from joint to joint it was just the skin at the top and bottom on the back of the cannon that was still attached  - amazingly he missed the blood vessels and tendons but you could clearly see them flapping in the breeze!  
The vet wasn't quite sure what to do to be honest and rang the edinburgh vet school for advice as he had never seen anything so bad - you could wrap your hand round the bone!!  This time we didn't bother to stitch it, we sedated and thoroughly cleaned it, anti-b's for 10 days, and just put tons to start with of intrasite gel and special non stick dressings then loads of padding and a waterproof sticky bandage which held it all in place nicely, he was only kept in for 3 days as he was so well behaved and sore enough not to go flying round.  That took again about 5 months to heal and required daily dressing changes to start with and then every other day and once it was just pink and gooey every 3 days, he got so used to us faffing with his leg we could actually just change it while he was loose and eating in the field - I think it got itchy after a while!  
It healed with no proud flesh and he just has a zig zag scar running down the cannon, he is now a 5yr old stallion and training to be a stunt horse!!

So wound management is crucial but it is do-able it just takes time and patience - the amount of swearing coming from our stables to start with was interesting - one fidget and there's expensive intrasite all over the floor and dressings stuck to hooves!!!!  And as for the skin flaps - just get the vet to cut them off - they are only a hinderance and hold all the gunk in place - get him to cut back so you have nice clean edges.


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## Maesfen (6 October 2011)

queenbee said:



			Scarymare:  can you not discuss with your vet the option of sticking a drain in the bottom of this pocket of skin you help the yuckiness drain out?  Sure he should be able to make a small incision and fix a small tube in to help keep it draining from the bottom to enable it to heal top down (if that makes sense).

http://www.tpub.com/content/armymedical/MD0906/MD09060189.htm

Click to expand...


Agree.

This is what we did with Kitty last year as she had gouged a hole in her side which was deep enough for vet's fist only just missing her ribs (you could see the outline of them under the flesh that was left) .  Yes, we could and did stitch the wound but it was expected to break down which it did in parts.  Each day I had to wash off with saline, push some Antirobe capsules down the holes and also fill them up with Intrasite.  You can hardly see the scar now.











Just after the drain was taken out






a fortnight later






This was nearly 4 months after it happened, her first day without a protective rug on for an hour as it had healed over completely just was still bald.


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## jendie (6 October 2011)

If she is clearly trying then I wouldn't give up yet. Skin graft might be the best possible option for a good long term prognosis and cosmetically OK result but maybe the vet could lower his sights and aim at getting her through the foaling. I'd ensure she has the best possible nutrition because she needs to heal herself as well as grow the foal. Supplements might be helpful. If you really believe the wound is gangrenous then it surely needs to be cleaned up before it can heal with whatever treatment. It might be necessary to sedate her for that but the maggot therapy can work brilliantly, they gorge themselves on rotting flesh, removing it from the wound without causing too much distress. Once the foal is born the foaling bureau could help find a foster mum and the mare's body would be able to revert to putting itself first. You could review the situation at that stage and treat or PTS if necessary. I don't think that three weeks is anywhere near long enough to make the decision the wound isn't going to heal.

I am sorry, this is an awful situation. If the mare becomes toxic or in distress then PTS might well be the best option, but until then I'd give her and the foal the best possible chance.


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## Queenbee (6 October 2011)

candyflosspot said:



			None taken . Can i ask why this is then? 

Click to expand...

An example, that is nothing to do with pregnancy is that I am on sodium valproate, as a result I am unable to take certain forms of the pill, the combined version is not so effective as the progesterone only, I am also not able to take anti depressants, the same goes for the herbal version st johns wort, furthermore I am unable to take antacid tablets (I reckon that must be to do with the chalk, possibly inhibiting the uptake of the drug into my system)  as for pregnancy:

http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyhealth/naturalherbsvitamins.html


http://www.swsbm.com/ManualsMM/HerbMedContra1.pdf (see below for info from this link)
HERBAL-MEDICAL
CONTRAINDICATIONS
by Michael Moore
PREGNANCY
Some of these herbs are relatively harmless, but considering the highly
reactive state of pregnancy, and the fact that fetal growth is a template
that can manifest pharmacokinetics VERY differently than for an adult,
they are mentioned. Others are obviously inappropriate because of
endocrine, autonomic or vascular effects.
PREGNANCY: TERATOGENIC/MUTAGENIC
Podophyllum (American Mandrake)
Baptisia (Wild Indigo)...theoretically
PREGNANCY: UTERINE VASOCONSTRICTORS
Arctostaphylos (Uva Ursi, Manzanita, Coralillo) if use is continued for
more than 3-4 days
Ephedra vulgaris (Ma Huang, Chinese Ephedra)
Ustilago (Corn Smut) A feeble ergot analog
Vinca major (Periwinkle) Idiosyncratic vasoconstrictor
Viscum album (European Mistletoe) May incorrectly be American
Mistletoe in commerce, a very vasoconstricting plant.
Xanthium (Cadillos, Cocklebur) More than 6-8 burrs a day can
cause potential placental separation
PREGNANCY: UTERINE VASODILATORS
Actea rubra (A. arguta, Baneberry)
Aloe (Aloes Socrotine, etc.)
Angelica sinensis (Dong Quai, Tang Kwei)
Apocynum cannabinum (Dogbane, Canadian Hemp)
Aristolochia serpentaria (Virginia Snakeroot)
Aristolochia watsonii (Indian Root, Raiz del Indio)
Arnica (A. montana, A. cordifolia, A. latiflora, etc.)
Artemisia absinthium(Wormwood)
Artemisia tridentata (Sagebrush)
Artemisia vulgaris (Mugwort. California Mugwort)
Asclepias asperula (Inmortal, Antelope Horns)
Asclepias tuberosa (Pleurisy Root)
Bryonia (Bryony)
Cacalia decomposita (Maturin. Maturique)
Chamaelirium (Helonias. Unicorn Root )
Chenopodium ambrosioides (Epazote. Wormseed)
Cimicifuga racemosa (Black Cohosh)
Corynanthe (Pausinystalia Johimbe. Yohimbe)
Crocus (True Saffron, "Azafran")
Daucus carota (Carrot, Wild Carrot) The seeds.
Euonymus (Wahoo, Burning Bush)
Fouquieria splendens (Ocotillo)
Galega (Goat's Rue)
Hedeoma (American Pennyroyal, Poleo Chino)
Iris versicolor, I. missouriensis (Blue Flag)
Juniperus (Juniper. Sabina, Sabino Macho, "Cedar")
Lilium tigrinum (Tiger Lily)
Lophophora (Peyote. Mescal Buttons)
Petroselinum (Parsley) Fresh leaves in large amounts
Podophyllum (American Mandrake, May Apple)
Polygala senega (Senega Snakeroot, Milkwort)
Polymnia uvedalia (Bearsfoot, Leafcup)
Ruta graveolens (Rue, Ruda)
Sanguinaria (Bloodroot)
Spigelia (Pink Root)
Stillingia sylvatica (Queen's Root)
Tanacetum (Tansy, Ponso, Tanse)
Thuja (Arbor Vitae, Flat, Red or Yellow Cedar)
Turnera diffusa (Damiana)
Xanthoxylum (Prickly Ash)
PREGNANCY: CATHARTICS / SACRAL IRRITANTS
Aloe (Aloes Socrotine. etc.)
Cassia marilandica (American Senna)
Chenopodium ambrosioides (Epazote, Wormseed)
Heliopsis longipes (Raiz del Oro, Chilcuan)
Iris versicolor, I. missouriensis (Blue Flag)
Leptandra (Veronicastrum, Culver's Root)
Podophyllum (American Mandrake)
Rhamnus californica (California Buckthorn)
Rhamnus Frangula (Buckthorn)
Rhamnus purshiana (Cascara Sagrada)
Rheum (Chinese or Turkey Rhubarb)
Senna (Cassia angustifolia, Te de Sena )
PREGNANCY: OXYTOCIN SYNERGISTS
Asclepias asperula (Inmortal, Antelope Horns)
Capsella bursa-pastoris (Shepherd's Purse,)
Caulophyllum (Blue Cohosh)
Gossypium (Cotton, Algodoncillo) Root Bark
Leonurus cardiaca (Motherwort)
Lophophora (Peyote, Mescal Buttons)
Scoparius (Cytisus Scoparius, Broom Tops)
Ustilago (Corn Smut)
PREGNANCY: OVERT DRUG PLANTS (and compounds)
Aconitum columbianum (Aconite, Monkshood) Aconitine
Apocynum cannabinum (Dogbane. Canadian Hemp)
Feeble digitaloid
Chenopodium ambrosioides (Epazote, Wormseed)
Cinchona (Peruvian Bark. Quinine Bark) Quinines
Convallaria (Lily of the Valley)
Feeble digitaloid
Corynanthe (Pausinystalia Johimbe, Yohimbe)
Yohimbine AND some reserpine relatives..an indole stew
Datura (Jimson Weed. Toloache, Estramonio)
Atropine effects
Ephedra vulgaris (Ma Huang, Chinese Ephedra)
Ephedrines
Garrya (Silk Tassel, Cuauchichic, Quinine Bush)
Garryine, Cuauachichicine - anti-cholinergics
Gelsemium (Yellow Jasmine)
Gelsemine...an indole alkaloid and CNS irritant
Hyocyamus niger (Henbane)
Atropine effects
Lophophora (Peyote, Mescal Buttons)
Nicotiana (Punche, Tobacco)
Peganum harmala (Syrian Rue)
Harmine (indole alkaloid, MAO inhibitor)
Pilocarpus (Jaborandi)
Pilocarpine and other muscarinics
Scoparius (Cytisus Scoparius, Broom Tops)
Cytisine, sparteine (simultaneous Hypo-Hypertensives)
Veratrum (Green, False or American Hellebore)
Cardiac depressant
PREGNANCY: MISCELLANEOUS WIERDNESS
Aconitum carmichaeli (CURED) (Fu-tse, Fo-tzu)
Peculiar adrenergic, wrong in TCM, and generally too potent.
Acorus calamus (Calamus, Sweet Flag)
Mildly co-carcinogen (Eurasian strain), and may interfere
with normal PG inter-reactions
Aesculus californica (California Buckeye) see below
--Aesculus glabra (Ohio Buckeye) see below
--Aesculus hippocastanum (Horse Chestnut)
All stimulate myenteric plexus, with unpredictable effects.
Amygdalis persica (Peach Tree)
Cyanogenic, unless prepared perfectly
Anemone hirsutissima (Pulsatilla) anti-dopimergic
Baptisia (Wild Indigo Root) CAN mimic Scoparius
Corydalis aureus (Golden Smoke)
--Dicentra canadensis (Turkey Corn)
--Dicentra formosa (Bleeding Heart)
--Eschscholtzia californica (California Poppy)
Above four have mixed protopine alkaloids
Ginkgo biloba (Maidenhair Tree) Many effects, unpredictable
Glycyrrhiza glabra (Licorice) Minerocorticosteroid effects
Guaiacum officinale (Lignum Vitae, Guayacan)
Unpredictable vasodilation, feebly muscarinic
Helenium hoopesii (Yerba del Lobo) Potential liver irritant
Hydrastis (Golden Seal) Mucosa stimulant, may age placenta
Larrea (Chaparral) Quirky anti-oxidant, w/hemolytic potential
Lomatium dissectum (Leptotaenia) Too bioactive to chance
Marrubium (Horehound, Marrubio) Can be mildly hypertensive
Mentha arvensis (Brook Mint, Poleo) Has Pennyroyal effects.
Oplopanax horridum (Echinopanax, Devil's Club)
--Panax ginseng (Asian Ginseng)
--Panax quinquefolium (American Ginseng)
Above three are anabolic/hypothalamic
Phytolacca (Poke) Idiosyncratic muscarinic effects
Prunus (Wild Cherry) Cyanogenic when gathered incorrectly
Ptychopetalum (Muirapuama. Raiz del Macho)
Idiosyncratic motor/sacral stimulant
Senecio aureus (Life Root) May be toxic relatives
Silybum marianum (Milk Thistle) May inhibit hepatocytes in
excess; pregnancy may alter therapeutic window
Solanum dulcamara (Bittersweet Twigs) Too bioactive.
Symphytum (Comfrey) Hybrids in commerce contain root PAs
Tribulus (Puncture Vine, Goat's Head) Ayurvedic Medicine
advises not to use in pregnancy
Viscum album (European Mistletoe) May be adulterated with
American Mistletoe: even if correct, it is too bioactive
PREGNANCY: MAY BE PRESENT IN MILK
Acorus calamus (Calamus. Sweet Flag)
Ailanthus altissima (Tree of Heaven)
Allium sativum (Garlic)
Aloe (Aloes Socrotine, etc.)
Aristolochia serpentaria (Virginia Snakeroot)
Aristolochia watsonii (Indian Root, Raiz del Indio)
Artemisia absinthium(Wormwood, Agenjo)
Artemisia tridentata (Sagebrush, Chamiso Hediondo)
Artemisia vulgaris (Mugwort, Altamisa)
Cacalia decomposita (Maturin, Maturique)
Cannabis sativa (Marijuana, Hemp)
Cassia marilandica (American Senna, Te de Sena)
Chenopodium ambrosioides (Epazote, Wormseed)
Commiphora (Myrrh Gum, Mirra)
Convallaria (Lily of the Valley)
Daucus carota (Carrot, Wild Carrot) Seeds
Dracontium (Symplocarpus, Skunk Cabbage)
Fouquieria splendens (Ocotillo)
Galega (Goat's Rue)
Ginkgo biloba (Maidenhair Tree)
Juniperus (Juniper. Sabina, "Cedar")
Ligusticum porteri (Osha, Chuchupate)
Pilocarpus (Jaborandi)
Rheum (Chinese or Turkey Rhubarb)
Sanguinaria (Bloodroot)
Senna (Cassia angustifolia, Te de Sena )
Ruta graveolens (Rue, Ruda)
Tanacetum (Tansy, Tanse, Ponso, "Altamisa")
Thuja (Arbor Vitae, Flat, Red or Yellow Cedar)
Xanthoxylum (Prickly Ash)


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## Queenbee (6 October 2011)

wowzers... ^^^ copy and paste overload there ^^^ sorry guys!


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## Ilovefoals (6 October 2011)

Can someone post a link to the previous post so I can see the pictures of the wound? I can't find it anywhere. Thanks.


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## candyflosspot (6 October 2011)

Thanks for the information Queenbee..


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## Meowy Catkin (6 October 2011)

Here's the photos of Scarymare's broodmare from the original thread.















Click to expand...


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## Carefreegirl (6 October 2011)

Apologies if someone has already mentioned this but I'm at work so can't read all the replies.

If you go into the veterinary page, go onto the pictures of your horses veterinary conditions, go to page 6 and scroll down to minxie's post. There are some horrific pictures (sorry to sound so gruesome) and subsequent healing. There is no final outcome post but I'm sure if you pm'd her (if she's still a registered member) she would have some good advice.

Good luck.


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## christine48 (6 October 2011)

I really feel for you. It doesn't sound good with the gangrenous smell.
On the positive side I know of a young horse who had 3 legs where the skin all split after cellulitis and a reaction to danilon. One leg in particular had no skin from Pastern to knee. The vet wanted to skin graft etc and prognosis looked grim. The owners treated it with manuka honey dressings and she is now eventing, it's just amazing.


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## christine48 (6 October 2011)

I work in an operating theatre and when patients come in with horrid abscesses we flush them out with hydrogen peroxide diluted 50/50 with saline. Gets rid of the anaerobic bugs


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## Boulty (6 October 2011)

I'd second talking to intelligent woundcare / asking your vet about the possibility of contacting the veterinary wound library if they are stuck for inspiration as to where to go next with this


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## angelish (6 October 2011)

just wanted to say , wishing you the bast of luck with her 

such a sad situation to be in and as long as she's fighting i'd keep fighting with her if i were you ,really will keep my fingers crossed for positive news


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## Tnavas (6 October 2011)

As I haven't seen the injury it's hard to recommend anything. But I will tell you about one of the horses at the racing stables I worked in. It ditched the rider and bolted off the track straight through a very thick wooden gate post. Ripped a massive hole in its chest and split the skin all the fron the bas of it's neck downwards and around the inside of a front leg.

It looked horrendous. It was treated with saline, made from boiling water and adding 1 teaspoon salt per pint of cooled water. The wound was then coated with Active Manuka Honey - don't worry about getting the medical grade tubes - go to a health food shop and buy it by the pottle. Slather it on, where the wound is deep, melt the honey and pour in with a syringe.

Where the flesh is decaying go for the maggot treatment - they will eat away the dead tissue. For this type of woound proud flesh is your friend as it will close over the wound.

The mare that had the injury recovered - we had her heavily sedated for around two weeks , on box rest on straw. She is now a proud mum.

Just seen the pics - it would be recoverable with honey and strap up - keep it covered 24/7 - the above mare was far worse with a gaping hole around 6+ inches accross


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## el_Snowflakes (6 October 2011)

Gosh what an awful sitaution:

Sorry I dont have much advice, but I have seen similar pics of injuries which have been treated with manuka honey (as other posters have suggested) I would give the mare a chance if you can afford to. Its a really tough call...please keep us updated. Best wishes x


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## Gingerwitch (6 October 2011)

Good luck - whatever you decide will be the best thing for you to do - you obviously care deeply about the mare, and you are being practical about the costs - that does not make you a bad person in any way shape or form.

Your mare will tell you what to do and when - but whilst she is willing to fight on, if possible keep fighting with her 

god bless you, your mare and the foal - your show name could be "fighting chance" if you are lucky enough to be able to be able to pull through this.

GW
x


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## glenruby (6 October 2011)

Scarymare - I think I posted on your original thread. IMO 3 weeks is not necessarily long enough to see if its going to recover. Has the wound been swabbed/cultured? Have you any up to date photos? I echo the others, if you have a trusted vet the email him the photos. Also try Dr Knottenbelt - hes one of the experts on wound care.
As for skin grafts - they wont adhere to necrotic tissue and are usually used for cosmetic purpoes rather than as a "cure"(in equine mediicine at least). They CAN help wound healing but again no guarantee of success. I also agree with Queenbee - a drain in the pocket would reduce the deadspace and increase the chances of the pocket tissue being saved. Im not sure what went on with your first vets, but tbh wound healing is rarely as simple as it looks day 1 - even if it does not look simple on day 1!!
As regards the wound increasing in size, we had a foal this yearwith a wire wound (down to bone) that was left untreated (a little cream on in the field is all) and 3 months later thewound was 5inches wide. This was due to the growth of proud flesh across the flat cut surface of the wound (ie perpendicular to the skin surface). Now thankfully it has reduced to about 2inches with wound contraction (4 mths since accident)- no proud flesh has yet been removes as it is cosmetic only and will not affect athletic function ( foal will be a racehorse!) 
Is she weight bearing and generally comfortable? If so, Id be inclined to keep going. As for bandaging I think Id be trying to open it up to the air for 3-4hrs daily and perhaps dry dressing it the rest of time (with dressings as suggested by many posters). 

Best of luck, and please do keep us updated.


Levathian - I seriously doubt your horse ripped her knee cap off - they dont have one(except on the stifle)!


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## Fii (6 October 2011)

This wound pictured a few minutes after being stitched.
 Three days later the wound burst open, bit by bit we lost the all stitches, and it couldnt be re-stitched, so imagine a gaping puss filled hole.
 After nearly three months of cleaning with an iodine solution and later hibiscrub twice a day, and then aplying manuka honey twice a day, mare had healed anough to be turned out, eventually scar  could onley be seen in summer coat.
 I also gave her Magnatude every day because she could be very stressfull, and that seemed to keep her at a chilled out level most of the time.
Where abouts are you, if you lived anywhere near me i wouldnt hesatate to recomend my vet, he is wonderfull!!
 Good luck and dont give up hope yet!!


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## nickih (6 October 2011)

Awful situation. Only thing I can think of - If the wound is infected and you need to draw out the bad, then Epsom Salts are extremely old fashioned, but very good. Pour a good amount and dissolve in water as warm as your mare can stand it, then apply with a wad of cotton wool. Keep rinsing the cotton wool and reapplying until the water has cooled. Repeat several times a day or as often as you can. May take several days to start to draw the infection but if it does, you will know about it. Have used them to great affect on several wounds - dogs paw, geldings hock - wire injury that got infected, and my own infected wound after having a caesarian. If you can get it to draw the puss then you are onto a winner cos the infection is what usually stops the wound from healing. If the site is very large so cotton wool is not an option, a clean cloth is just as good. In my family we also swear by TCP ointment (that#s the smelly funny coloured cream in a tube) This also helps to draw infection but if the site is large may be difficult to cover and keep on.
Hope you find a way to save both her and foal xxx


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## Tnavas (7 October 2011)

nickih said:



			Awful situation. Only thing I can think of - If the wound is infected and you need to draw out the bad, then Epsom Salts are extremely old fashioned, but very good.
		
Click to expand...

Epsom salts stings like hell on an open wound - I used it on myself once and couldn't believe the pain I felt with it and it doesn't wear off like salt does. In the end I had to wash off the epsom salts and use plain salt.

PLease don't give up on your girl, you may need to dress the wound twice a day at least to keep the infection down. Do apply a load of vaseline below the wound as the stuff oozing from it will eventually make the skin below sore.

Definately DO NOT expose the wound to the air - a wound that dries oout does not heal as well as a wound that is covered and kept moist.


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## Tnavas (7 October 2011)

Some of you will have seen this before - my friends horse after coliding with the gate catch - initially stitched but broke open two days later. Was then dressed with Active Manuka honey daily and the horse was back in work in five weeks.
Pictures of the wound just after it happened and then again five weeks later.


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## Baby-G12 (7 October 2011)

Thats really sadCurrently we have a mare in foal and she is doing pretty good I hope she gets better


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## scarymare (7 October 2011)

Thanks everyone.

Latest update - vet coming tonight and will speak to him about everything you have all uggested - will also get pictures.  She's in fine form and very vocal this morning.  Walked into spare box quite well.

Spoke to OH and he has suggested that we put a 'top line' of £5K on it of which he will pay £3K.  After that it will just be down to me and the manuka honey if she ever lets me get near it.  If he still wants to go ahead with the graft after seeing it today then I will allow it and take her there on Monday.

I've just got a bill in from the first vets of £1500 which I intend to contest as most of their dressings were off by next morning.

Will post again tomorrow thanks again x x xx


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## el_Snowflakes (7 October 2011)

scarymare said:



			Thanks everyone.

Latest update - vet coming tonight and will speak to him about everything you have all uggested - will also get pictures.  She's in fine form and very vocal this morning.  Walked into spare box quite well.

Spoke to OH and he has suggested that we put a 'top line' of £5K on it of which he will pay £3K.  After that it will just be down to me and the manuka honey if she ever lets me get near it.  If he still wants to go ahead with the graft after seeing it today then I will allow it and take her there on Monday.

I've just got a bill in from the first vets of £1500 which I intend to contest as most of their dressings were off by next morning.

Will post again tomorrow thanks again x x xx
		
Click to expand...

looking forward to hearing your update- hope its a positive one


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## Natch (7 October 2011)

Is twitching an option for next time you need her sedated? It would save the chemicals from sedation going to baby. 

Best of luck with her. xx


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## blueeyed20girl (7 October 2011)

hi there, have not scrolled through the whole topic so please excuse me if  have missed something
My friends has started sellin this really good product that she originally tried for her own mare when she rescued it and it had a horrific hip injury from the transporter that brought her, it is called "well-horse" ill pm you the website if you would like.. lets put it this way i have NEVER and mean never seen anything like this product before in my life and i was alway one to stand on the back burner when all these so called wonder products came out but after seeing and using this stuff first hand myself it really is good, and totally organic as it comes from a special type of tree in the rainforest, non toxic and unharmful if swallowed.. i have even witnessed my own mother putting it on the holes in her mouth when she had her wisdom teeth taken out! heals rapidly an seems to clear out infection (same way i gues that the tree that it comes from would repair itself with i guess) so it might be worth you getting some and trying it??? just a thought! and i wish you the best with your mare never an easy decision im afraid! xx pm me if you would like web address details! xx


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## OldNag (7 October 2011)

I'd like to make a suggestion but have to declare an interest.  If you haven't looked at using Aloe Vera to help with this, I'd say it's definitely worth looking into.  

I have to declare an interest as I market it for my business and I don't want to send you to my own website or anything or be seen to be spamming.  But can I just say that generally it's excellent on wounds and can help speed up healing. 

There's a lot out there on the market, generally you get what you pay for so avoid bargain basement.  I don't want to mention brand names, for the reason I gave above, but hope this is useful info.


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## Clannad48 (8 October 2011)

scarymare,

Any news from the vet visit.

Good vibes and hugs


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## jeeve (8 October 2011)

I have to say I used manuka honey on a wound that would not heal on both my horse and my self, and had good results with both. I would try (whatever options are available) while there is some chance of resolving - I would not be looking at skin grafts though.


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## toppy72 (8 October 2011)

Hi I started to read this thread on Thursday and it has been in and out of my mind ever since what a horrible position to be in.  

I think that if the mare is in good spirits I would keep doing what I could with honey,  creams, antibiotics etc.  I would be dubious about skin grafts surely their sucess relies on the skin being able to fuse and heal,  if it is not doing that at the moment why would it happen after the trauma of an operation.

I have heard great things about the Joanna Varden foaling bank so maybe you should make contact with them as well.

My heart goes out to you at what must be an awful time,  I am sure your little mare will tell you when she has had enough xxx


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## naomioverseas (8 October 2011)

So sorry about your mare, unfortunately the eventual outcome for her seems bleak but if she's not miserable (and you would know better than anyone on that) then saving the foal seems to be the number one priority here. In my experience adopted foals usually do extremely well as they don't know they are adopted. Good luck with whatever you decide and I hope Mum's fighting spirit carries her through.


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## angelish (8 October 2011)

shameless bump 
is there any news


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## el_Snowflakes (9 October 2011)

BUMP ing again to see if theres any news???....


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## scarymare (9 October 2011)

Hi guys.  She's going to the horspital tomorrow to have the hanging skin made into a 'lattice' and stretched up the leg.  Hopefully this will take.  I'm bricking it about taking her to the vet as I've never travelled her but had her in my wee 3.5tonner today and she was fine - vocal but fine.  So she'll be at the vets for a week or two so that they can daily change the dressing.  We managed her without any sedation on Friday too .  Must admit to losing her in the yard today - scary but what great form she is on and unbelievably sound in trot.  Forgot to get pics but will get vet to email me before and after shots after the op tomorrow.  Could really do with a change of fortune so here's hoping!


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## Sheep (9 October 2011)

Wishing you and your mare all the very best- let's hope this works for her because I think the both of you really deserve a break.

Fingers & toes crossed for you!


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## snoops1994 (9 October 2011)

fingers crossed for you!!!


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## Thistle (9 October 2011)

that sounds quite positive. She obviously feeling well!


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## Queenbee (9 October 2011)

rooting for you from cornwall   x


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## Meowy Catkin (9 October 2011)

Lots and lots of luck, I really hope that this works.


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## crabbymare (9 October 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			My own vet used Lotagen when working in Australia and agreed with me that there is NOTHING as good available in this country.  I believe it IS available in Germany if we have any German residents on the forum????
		
Click to expand...

Glad the vets have something to try and help her, hopefully the lattice will give the new skin a start. 

_IF_ it does not work I would ditto the Lotagen, and if you need it I have a friend in Germany who I know would be happy to get some for you if you want to try it.

Good luck with her, hope she makes a full recovery for you.


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## Lexie81 (9 October 2011)

really hoping this works for her....fingers firmly crossed for you scarymare x


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## el_Snowflakes (9 October 2011)

sounds as though she's feeling quite well  sending (((((((((((((((positive vibes)))))))))))) your way


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## MissSBird (10 October 2011)

Wishing you all the best. Positive vibes your way!


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## touchstone (10 October 2011)

I hope all goes well, best wishes for a positive outcome.


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## Bigginge (10 October 2011)

I don't have any suggestions but I will be thinking of you and your mare and wishing you lots of luck.


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## Bojangles (10 October 2011)

Fingers crossed for you!!


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## lochpearl (10 October 2011)

Everything here crossed for you, sounds as though she is in fighting spirit so hope you can save them both x


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## oscarwild (10 October 2011)

Hoping all goes well at the hospital with your mare and she recovers from this.  She sounds like she still on good form so hopefully that will help your mare.

Got everything crossed for you and sending you massive vibes your way.  

Please keep us updated on how the op goes etc.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (10 October 2011)

Scarymare, best of luck with your mare. Nothing but good wishes and healing vibes coming her way. 

Terri


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## Marilyn (10 October 2011)

I keep checking back to see how the mare is- fingers crossed for her, please keep us posted.


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## Vetwrap (10 October 2011)

We're really rooting for you and your mare.  

If positive vibes alone have healing powers, she'd be right as rain by now.


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## BonneMaman (10 October 2011)

Fingers crossed for your mare and foal - it is truly wonderful to see someone like you trying your utmost to get a good outcome from this awful situation.

Best of luck.


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## Clannad48 (10 October 2011)

Mega positive vibes for your mare and hugs for you.  Fingers and toes crossed as well


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## nickslynn (11 October 2011)

Have been following this thread and hope no news is good news! Thinking of you and sending healing vibes your way.


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## scarymare (11 October 2011)

nickslynn said:



			Have been following this thread and hope no news is good news! Thinking of you and sending healing vibes your way.
		
Click to expand...

Gosh, sorry, yes I think it is - did an update earlier but it sort of fell off so to speak.  Pasted from that:

Vet phoned last night - he has managed to lattice and stitch half the wound. It took him 4.5 hours  Plan is that he will see how it is on Friday and if looks promising then do the other half.

He also said he is conscious of costs but wants a good result so we could negotiate afterwards a sensible number. Sounds promising though.


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## Archiepoo (11 October 2011)

gosh scarymare were all holding our breath for her,dont feel like your alone tho-were all going through this with you.(((((huge hugs)))))


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## babymare (11 October 2011)

scareymare having been on hols and then dreadfully poorly  - ok just a cold but eh - i have only just read this post.  With all my heart I hope things come good for your mare and you.  You will be in my thoughts and good vibes sent to you. as archie said the good side of this forum is you are not alone and there are so many people out there supporting you - lean on us and let us support you through here.  You will do the right thing for your mare what ever happens but I for one feel positive this will come good - im so bad at saying what want to say so simples - Big huge huge hugs to you and your mare and please keep us posted hun xxxxx


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## OldNag (11 October 2011)

Scareymare it does sound like things are heading in the right direction.  I hope everythign continues to go well, fingers and toes firmly crossed for you, mare and foal.


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## Tinsel Trouble (12 October 2011)

Just read the update- That must be a huge relief! Hope you are finally able to relax!!


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## Naryafluffy (26 October 2011)

Is there another update on the mare and how the leg is doing?


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