# What do you think about Parelli?



## HHO admin (17 May 2007)

Pat Parelli has opened a new office at Stoneleigh Park, which is also home to British Dressage, British Eventing and BSJA, and plans to run natural horsemanship courses on site, starting next year. 

H&amp;H are interested to hear your views on Parelli, and it's move into Stoneleigh, either by email to hhletters@ipcmedia.com or through this thread.


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## Super_Kat (17 May 2007)

Over-priced common sense IMO.....


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## PaddyMonty (17 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Over-priced common sense IMO..... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't agree more.  Good old fashioned horsemanship dressed up and repackaged to look like something more


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## Super_Kat (17 May 2007)

Oh, my post has been changed! Wheres my IMO gone?


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## HHO admin (17 May 2007)

Apologies - I was trying to rename the thread and must have accidently lost your IMO in the process. It's now been reinstated.

HHO Admin


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## Super_Kat (17 May 2007)

LOL, thank you Admin


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## Bananaman (17 May 2007)

My friend says it seems to be a 'license to take money from middle aged women who are too frightened to ride their horses.' 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I have to think she is probably right!

A 'carrot stick'?  It's a blooming SCHOOLING WHIP!


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## sleepingdragon10 (17 May 2007)

Honestly? I think someone is making an awful lot of money out of a common sense concept.


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## RCAWilson (17 May 2007)

I'm SO excited! I can't wait! I think it's fantastic, hopefully with Pat getting more involved over here it will encourage more people in this country (and europe) to learn more about Parelli. The more people who learn about what Pat is doing for the horse, the better.
There is much ignorance about it here, and opinions based upon ignorance. Opinions based on ignorance are no good, they can be hurtful and offensive, and this applies to all aspects of life I think.
I'm over the moon, I'm sure there are many many others here who are too.
I hope Pat is welcomed with open arms in Stoneleigh, he certainly deserves to be. 
I cannot describe in words how grateful I am to Pat and Linda, they're both extraordinary people.
I will be happy to discuss more with anyone through PM if you want to know more about Parelli Natural Horse.man.ship.


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## Baileysno1 (17 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
My friend says it seems to be a 'license to take money from middle aged women who are too frightened to ride their horses.' 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I have to think she is probably right!

A 'carrot stick'?  It's a blooming SCHOOLING WHIP! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Hee hee Soooooooooooooooo true!

I also think its a teeny bit dangerous, very novice owners buy a kit and a DVD and think they can solve all their unsuitable horses 'problems' in 3 easy steps.


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## RCAWilson (17 May 2007)

No, a Carrot stick is not a schooling whip- it is used as an extension of your arm, with it you can be as long as a horse or as tall as a horse, an excellent aid for communication and safety with things such as getting your horse used to touching on hind legs etc. with you at a safer distance.


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## Bananaman (17 May 2007)

Yes, it's what I use my schooling whip for.

I don't just use it when I'm riding, as a ridden aid.

I use it to ask my colt to move backwards by lifting it and my arm so that I am taller than him.  
I used it to stroke him with so that he doesn't fear it but also gets used to be touched without me putting myself in a place that I might get kicked.
I use it to ask my horses to move over on the ground.  Etc., etc., etc.

It is still a SCHOOLING WHIP!


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## Daphnelia (17 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Over-priced common sense IMO..... 

[/ QUOTE ]

totally agree. Its unreal how much they charge


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## cheeryplatypus (17 May 2007)

agree it's overpriced and 'common sense' but sometimes it is nice to have a set plan to follow.  it can really help build confidence between horse and owner if followed properly, is also very safe


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## spaniel (17 May 2007)

Its amazing what clever marketing can achieve.  Or should that be savvy marketing?


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## PapaFrita (17 May 2007)

To-MAY-toe, to-MAH-toe... you call it Parelli, I call it common sense.
Yes, it IS valuable and it IS effective and when it's called Parelli it IS expensive. 
How come a carrot stick costs £24.95 and a schooling whip (which can be used to exactly the same end) costs as little as £4.99?


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## eventing_chick (17 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Its amazing what clever marketing can achieve.  Or should that be savvy marketing? 

[/ QUOTE ]
Wish i'd thought of it............


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## RCAWilson (17 May 2007)

The term 'schooling whip' is an invalid and completely misleading term when used to describe a carrot stick. 
Yes, you use your 'whip' for the uses you describe, but that does'nt mean we use our carrot sticks in the same manner as you do. 
Also, a 'whip' is a 'whip' and a 'stick' is not.
A whip hurts if you hit with it, even with little effort, and so it is not an effective tool for us. With a solid stick that has very little flex in it, you can use in a very light touch or with medium strength, or with alot of strength and give a sort of 'thump' (not often needed!) but not create a pain that a thin flexible whip would cause (with little effort in comparison) which to a horse may be seen as very rude and undeserving, that is not considered as an effective communication tool. I am not talking about your use of your schooling whip, I am talking in terms of a 'whip' used in conjunction with Parelli methods.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Anyone feel free to PM me if you would like to talk more about Parelli.


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## Daphnelia (17 May 2007)

why not just use a stick then?
Theres plenty in my garden


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## HBII (17 May 2007)

Each to their own I guess everything has its place/job in life


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## Alibear (17 May 2007)

common sense repackaged and repriced in my opinion.


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## kirsti (17 May 2007)

i tried the parelli method on my arab gelding, i watched the videos, read the instructions and tried very hard to make sure i did every thing correctly but it made my horse very aggresive towards me and he didn't like me or trust me. i had to stop as i did not want to ruin the great relationship we have. Parelli were very good about it and gave me a refund. 
my advice...be careful, some horses take it, some dont. think it depends on their nature. 
Kirsti


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## ruscara (17 May 2007)

Going rather against the grain here, I had a friend who was doing courses in Parelli (with the equipment, and a trainer who came to work with him and his horse) and he did a bit (the 'games') with Marius.  I was actually really amazed and impressed with the results he got with what is a daft, nervous horse.  I really was pleased.
My friend then stopped doing the training, as he said it was too expensive.


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## riotgirl (17 May 2007)

If you've any common sense at all then you'll find you have all the Parelli you need without the huge price tag.


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## JACQSZOO (17 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
The term 'schooling whip' is an invalid and completely misleading term when used to describe a carrot stick. 
Yes, you use your 'whip' for the uses you describe, but that does'nt mean we use our carrot sticks in the same manner as you do. 
Also, a 'whip' is a 'whip' and a 'stick' is not.
A whip hurts if you hit with it, even with little effort, and so it is not an effective tool for us. With a solid stick that has very little flex in it, you can use in a very light touch or with medium strength, or with alot of strength and give a sort of 'thump' (not often needed!) but not create a pain that a thin flexible whip would cause (with little effort in comparison) which to a horse may be seen as very rude and undeserving, that is not considered as an effective communication tool. I am not talking about your use of your schooling whip, I am talking in terms of a 'whip' used in conjunction with Parelli methods.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Anyone feel free to PM me if you would like to talk more about Parelli. 

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you saying it is impossible to use any other "whip" in place of a carrot stick?  There is not a similar product already on the market that would do the job?


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## Mid (17 May 2007)

Time, respect and patience are all you need to build a bond with a horse, and luckily, they're all free.


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## JACQSZOO (17 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Time, respect and patience are all you need to build a bond with a horse, and luckily, they're all free. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Very well put


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## sleepingdragon10 (17 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Time, respect and patience are all you need to build a bond with a horse, and luckily, they're all free. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Those concepts are working rather nicely with my new forest yearling who is now happy to allow us to touch and pick up all four of his feet, something that a month ago wasn't possible.
And oddly enough he managed his progress all without having to use a 'carrot stick'!


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## Mid (17 May 2007)

So the concept is that poking a horse with a stick is kinder then flicking them with a whip? To be honest, I think they're about the same on the pain threshold, which is very low. I haven't had to smack any of mine with my schooling whip for ages! I literally just tickle them, to remind them that I'm (pretty much) in control


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## BigBayBeastie (17 May 2007)

Schooling whip: £4.99
Carrot Stick: £24.99
Bamboo Stick: 50p

Hummmmmmmmm.

Not too keen on it myself, over hyped common sence and could easily encourage novices to try and take on problem horses, what is to stop me watching the videos and then going out and charging people for my naturalhorsemanship classes???


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## sleepingdragon10 (17 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
So the concept is that poking a horse with a stick is kinder then flicking them with a whip? To be honest, I think they're about the same on the pain threshold, which is very low. I haven't had to smack any of mine with my schooling whip for ages! I literally just tickle them, to remind them that I'm (pretty much) in control 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Looks that way! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




I use a good old schooling whip when working SWUO inhand and I doubt she notices anything I do with it in a painful sense. A really don't think a slight tap on the hock to encourage her over is going to inflict any serious wounds......or that I'd need to pay an extortionate amount of money for a carrot stick to do exactly the same job!


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## Mid (17 May 2007)

Forgot to add, in general, horses think that you're bigger then they are. And this is without a carrot stick. If they did know their size and strength, that would be the last of a LOT of people


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## shandy133 (17 May 2007)

ive used the methods of it, but dont agree with most. my trainer, jayne trained with parelli and left as she thought some of his methods were not to her liking - to put it that way. she then went on to train with Ken Faulkner, she does over charge extremely, but with her methods, i have "broken" into my mare, and now can use other tainers. without jayne and parelli methods i do not know how long it would have tuner out. but i do agree, parelli is over priced, and a lunger whip wokrs the same as a carrot stick - i have a carrot stick and other whips -when a hrose is not scared of one type of whip, does it matter what it is? sam. xxx


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## Mid (17 May 2007)

Sorry, I'm on a role here! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Wouldn't Parelli do more 'good for horsekind' by opening a rescue centre or shelter? Think of the thousands of meat ponies and abandoned foals that the money they make with selling those gadgits would save! But instead, they open another Parelli Base.


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## shandy133 (17 May 2007)

very well said there!!!
i wonder just how rich the parelli's are now!


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## ChristineW (17 May 2007)

I have followed theh Parelli training method with great success.  So I am pleased to hear they will have a presence in the UK.

Anyone interested in having a better understanding and relationship with horses - whatever type of horse/discipline can learn a lot from the programme.  It all depends on what you want/need.

My take is that I have had good value for money!
Each to their own


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## 0ldmare (17 May 2007)

Agree with Deadpan!


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## appyjude (17 May 2007)

Been there, done that, got the teeshirt (and the different coloured savvy string) - would have been much broker for the pleasure but I wised up after level 1 and got the kit from ebay and studied for myself - I was interested and wanted to learn and, guess what - it is common sense and there was no 'magic' answer.  I then sold all my kit to the next person who, I assume, found the same thing I did. Only years of experience and hours in the saddle and around horses "cured" my issues and reasons for taking on the "system" in the first place.

There is no substitute for experience and common sense - it's just a pity the Parelli Machine make so much money into the bargain.


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## SavvyHorse (17 May 2007)

I have studied the Parelli Horsemanship system for 4 years now and I have nothing but great things to say about it. It's not about training the horse, it's about training the human to be able to communicate to the horse better. Through this system I have been able to understand Horse Psychology, how the horse moves, why it does what it does and how to respond rather than react to those moves. I have also learned lots about the horses body, saddling and a lot of other aspects of horse ownership which I had not learned before even though I've been around horses a long time. 

The carrot stick is so unlike a whip it's untrue, it has a good feel and you can STOP it instantly whereas a whip wiggles more when you try to stop a movement. A whip also WHIPS sharply when used with quick movement whereas a carrot stick when used properly bounces without any hurt in it.

I can also say honestly that after my first purchases of the equipment (which in my opinion are not that expensive compared to what you can spend in a tack shop on normal things every week) I have not spent much in the last 3 years at all. 

Lastly I can honestly say that anyone who truly takes up this method and truly learns how to control themselves and learn how to get really under the skin of their horse will find out how well it works so anyone boo hooing it really hasn't in my opinon studied or learned the principles behind the system and although everyone's opinion is valid it is only valid if it has truly been studied and UNDERSTOOD.

I cannot wait to see more happening at Stoneleigh Park with PNH and also for the Parelli International Conference at the NEC on August 4-5....YEEHHAAAA!!

I've never had so much fun with my horses, never had such calm horses and never had such great comments from everyone who meets my horses on how well behaved they are and how much they love ME.

Shelley


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## viola (17 May 2007)

Qr
I am not familiar enough with Parelli methods to go into deep analysis but anything that helps horses to be understood better and ridden better and treated better have my full approval. I only have some knowledge of their ideas (which yes, are common sense) and a superfitial knowledge of 'the games' used in Parelli but saw people getting on really well with their horses using them so each to their own.
Personally I prefer to use own experiences and study horses psychology and physiology and use it in my work with horses.
When it comes to any Natural Horsemanship I do use join-up with some horses and found Monty Roberts' books very interesting and affordable enough to go for them.
Re costs of Parelli's courses - I saw them at Olympia last year and prices shocked me. However, if you think about people who mistreat horses due to lack of that great common sense so many horsey people claim they have, I reckon it is better they spend the money and get it right. 
It might be that if Parelli charged similar money to a 'normal' riding instructor they would be glorified for sharing their knowledge among less experienced horse owners.


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## jadebarrett (17 May 2007)

its just normal horsemanship wrapped up in a dvd and VERY VERY overpriced


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## NaturalTwo (17 May 2007)

Why is it a 'pity' that Parelli makes money? I don't see Pat and Linda Parelli swanning it around in fancy cars and lying on beaches on desert islands. They spend their time teaching and traveling around on tours to share their horsemanship with other people and I'm glad to see them investing in a centre here so that even more people can have access. Otherwise they spend their time with their horses improving their horsemanship and then 'bottling it' and passing it on - I can't see anything wrong with that. The horse industry is a multi-billion pound industry. I don't see anyone complaining about the profits made by other instructors, or the makers of saddles, rugs, clothing, lorries or any other piece of equine-related kit.

As for value, the study packs contain HOURS of material that if you did the same in paying for lessons with an instructor you'd probably end up paying way more. If you don't use an instructor and think you've learned all there is to know about horses then great. Personally I don't think we can ever stop learning, even when we're at the top of our game. That's why there are so many top riders that are looking at natural horsemanship techniques. Anyone seen how well Carl Hester's doing lately?  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Parelli isn't about saying that they're right and everyone else is wrong, far from it. All it's saying is that there might be a be another way to work (and play) with horses, and that by understanding and harnessing the basics of horse psychology that we can use that instead of using gadgets like stronger bits or martingales to control them. If you've already got a great relationship with your horse then fine, don't do it, but I for one am constantly on the look out to see how I can improve things. I'm following the system and am amazed by what I've learned about horses and in particular MY horse! And that's not to say I don't look elsewhere for other sources of advice and information - I do. I just happen to find that Parelli works really well for us.

I'm really impressed by those who've said they tried it but didn't get on with it. At least they tried it. If you haven't, come along to the NEC in August and see what you think. Then you can make a really informed comment.


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## anniedoherty (17 May 2007)

I am having Parelli/NH lessons at the moment.  It is no more expensive than a normal riding lesson (which I also have) and I have learnt some useful techniques which, combined with more traditional horsemanship,  I am using to good effect on my youngster.

I am puzzled by the antipathy towards NH techniques because, as most people have said it is "only common sense" and surely there's nothing wrong with a bit of that?  I have to agree that it can be very expensively packaged which, to me is just greed, but a lot of it can be demonstrated to be effective.  It is safe if done properly and that is why I am having instruction -  because if you do it wrong you could end up inadvertently rewarding your horse's bad behaviour.  Finally not everyone is possessed of common sense so to have a few pointers in that direction can surely only do them good?


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## RCAWilson (17 May 2007)

A carrot stick is made out of fiberglass, so anything made of similar material can be used as a carrot stick, so no, you don't have to pay the 24 pounds for a parelli one, anything of a similar sructure, strength and flexability can be used of course!
And YES PARELLI IS COMMON SENSE!!! 
However, it is not so 'common' horse sense I think.
I assume you use this 'common sense', yes? BRILLIANT!
So, I guess, you get these results from your common sense,
your horse runs to you from the field when he sees you at the gate, he is as light and responsive as you could possibly want- on the ground and on his back, your horse is always tuned into you? Your horse is free, no rope attached and he follows you around running, walking, turning and stopping, mirroring you, he asks you questions? He has total confidence and trust in you, your horse sees you as a fun human, yes? You play with your horse. He is completely respectful of your space, as you are of his.
You can ride your horse bridleless and bareback, cantering, jumping, in harmony, happy, in control? Of course! This Parelli stuff is just common sense- why, then, do I not see this more often? Why do 'traditional' horse riders not have this relationship with their horses? When they have this 'common sense'? Oh wait, they do! Yes.... It's just not always used?? Maybe not everyone knows this common sense stuff?
A 'problem' arises, do you know immediately how to fix it? Yes! How to keep that confidence and trust, the Leadership?
You can ask your horse to do anything, and he tries his hardest for you, but he is not pressured into it, and knows he won't be smacked for for being scared.
You are always reading your horse, his expression, a twitch of his ear, you know what it means when he licks his lips, because he's thinking, is he unconfident? Has he gone 'introverted'? You know what to do if your horse goes into 'prey animal mode', how to get him calm and listening to you, on the ground and on his back? Of course, this common sense is so simple, who needs Pat Parelli tell you this?
You have no issues with asking your horse to slow, or go. He is happy to do what you ask, invisible aids. You don't have tack problems, what bits to use, martingales, nope, this common sense means you have no issuses with any of this, you know that a brace in the body means a brace in the mind, and those issuse are way behind you.
You are more interested in how your horse is mentally, and know that when you horse is mentally sound and happy, the physical stuff follows easy. There is no 'Why did he do that?'
You are fasinated by your horse and what he does, you try your best to be a better human for your horse.
Of course, you are polite and ask permission when tacking up and mounting etc. You don't have to tie your horse up to do anything, tacking up, grooming, NO problem.
I'm so glad you guys have this common sense.
Wait, your horse does'nt do all this stuff? Oh, your horse does 'like' you though, he just could'nt give a rats arse about you. Are you not interested in applying this horse sense? You don't want your horse to do these things? Ah well, some people do just want their horse so they can ride, why do you want your horse to follow you around? You might just want rosettes and trophies, 'wow, is'nt that a beautiful mechanical robot there?' Whether or not you want to apply this common sense is up to you.
Ok......let the comments roll......
I'd rather be PM'ed for questions or comments to what I have said, as I cannot answer to a million replies of the thread!
P.S Maybe you should look into Parelli if you're interested in your horse doing wonderful things like I've said. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Oh, sorry, you already have that knowledge.


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## ruthc (17 May 2007)

I have had horses all of my life and for years I paid for lessons every week.  I made improvements here and there but if I was honest with myself I was going through the motions without really understanding why. I then saw a demo by some Parelli instructors and something changed in me, in fact I remember vividly standing watching with tears streaming down my face.  What struck me most was the dignity of both the human and the horse - what I was watching was a true partnership.  I have read these threads and I can understand why people think that natural horsemanship is just "common sense", and it is, but common sense is not as common as people think it is. I have been a student of Parelli Natural Horsemanship since the day I saw that demo and I have never looked back.  It's not about the carrot stick or the ropes or the halter - it's about the human opening up their mind and heart to let their horses teach them how to see the world through their eyes. I can only speak for myself but I have grown as a person because my horses have been patient enough to teach me what I needed to know.  The programme just sets you up to let that happen. We all love horses or we wouldn't feel passionate enough to be posting here, but please see past the "tools" to understand the principles that Pat is trying to share with us all.


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## Nickymac (17 May 2007)

Has anybody read "The Fearless Horse" by Joanna and Roger Day? I thought it gave very practical and commonsense solutions to the kind of problems we all encounter with our horses (and it only cost £19.99!)


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## LottieandMaisy (17 May 2007)

I think it can be damaging if in the wrong hands. My friend bought a horse that was trained in the Parelli way and he needed constant handling and attention 3 or 4 times a day, otherwise he wouldn't be caught, wouldn't have a bridle on or let anyone near him. Things had to be 'just so' or he would do nothing. He is scared of his own shadow. I believe that it has a place, but only in the hands of trained, experienced people, not a free-for-all.


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## Mid (17 May 2007)

Actually, our horses do come trotting, I could jump any of them bareback if I had a better seat, I often canter the little pony around in nowt but a head-collar, and yes, he follows me in the arena, walk, trot, halt and canter, mirroring my leg movement.

A lot of people could do those with their horses if they wanted to, they're just not into party tricks. It's much kinder on the horse's back to use a saddle, anyway.

"You can ask your horse to do anything, and he tries his hardest for you, but he is not pressured into it"

Yep. Had him 3 months, and if I ask him to do something scary, he'll do it, not because he's scared of me, but because I talk to him and tell him it's not so bad. 

"You don't want your horse to do these things? "

To be honest, if I, someone not particularily experienced, can convince a rescued youngster to love and trust me without spending a penny, then surely there's a fault in the parelli system?

I'm not against natural horsemanship, and I do agree that some of the traditional methods could be changed, it just bothers me that they slap a logo on it and charge loads of money. It'd do far more good if their stuff was cheaper, that way far more people would 'be nice to their horses'.


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## RCAWilson (17 May 2007)

Those of you who say 'Parelli does'nt work on all horses' or 'Parelli ruined this horse' etc.
I'd like to see you give that horse to Pat Parelli, I think you would be suprised- he is an amazing horseman, and he has done a wonderful thing by giving us some of his vast knowledge.


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## Mid (17 May 2007)

"Those of you who say 'Parelli does'nt work on all horses' or 'Parelli ruined this horse' etc.
I'd like to see you give that horse to Pat Parelli, I think you would be suprised- he is an amazing horseman, and he has done a wonderful thing by giving us some of his vast knowledge. "

Ah, but that would cost a fortune that not everyone has.


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## RCAWilson (17 May 2007)

That's great Deadpan, I'm genuinely pleased that you have good relationships with your horses, BUT
PARTY TRICKS?
No, it's the results of the hard work and relationship building, you're testing what you can do with your horse, not showing off. I find that offensive actually.
Yes, many people can ride in a headcollar, can you ride with nothing?


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## kimsavvy (17 May 2007)

I think it was more the human had the problem - not the horse!


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## Mid (17 May 2007)

Also, in a herd in nature, if a horse steps out of line, it will be swiftly double-barrelled by the lead mare. And yet, in Parelli, 'natural' horsemanship, you don't hit the horse? Something seems out of key...


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## Nickymac (17 May 2007)

I think you've summed it up by saying "he is an amazing horseman", but there is more than one way to skin a cat. I think many people have found a way to achieve their aims without using Parelli and therefore find this evangelical Parelli is-a-god stuff a bit tiresome. That's not a dig at you RCAW, just an explanation as to why you're getting some opposition (if that's not too strong a word) to your views on Parelli.


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## Doublethyme (17 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 My friend says it seems to be a 'license to take money from middle aged women who are too frightened to ride their horses.' 

I have to think she is probably right!

A 'carrot stick'? It's a blooming SCHOOLING WHIP!  

[/ QUOTE ] 

Absolutely spot on Bananaman, plus those who have said its common sense very cleverly marketed.

Also the Parelli supporters who think that he is bringing something to the UK horse world - is backing horses at 2 and setting up distasteful "contests" with other "horsemen" to see who can back a horse fastest going to be part of what he brings to the UK???

Like others I do think there is some stuff that is usable and good, but the way it is marketed irritates me intensely.


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## Enfys (17 May 2007)

There's good and bad in everything, it is how the information is used that is important. Each to their own, everybody has their own ingredients to add to the melting pot and there is always something new to learn.

I still can't see why a rope halter sold by Parelli is any different to an IDENTICAL one (I have compared them) that can be made with marine rope if you can tie knots or bought at most tack stores can be so differently priced. It's just a halter with a label on. Ditto the rope and the carrot stick. 

Actually, what I'd like to know is whether all these new people will be joining the rest of the forums ? I'm sure they have lots to say that would be of interest.


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## Mid (17 May 2007)

"Yes, many people can ride in a headcollar, can you ride with nothing?"

Never tried - The livery is practically on a main road.


I understand you wanting to test your horse, but wouldn't that be through doing things like trying to send him into and bring him back from a gallop, and less showy, more difficult things like that?

And like I said, a well-fitted saddle is far kinder to the back then a human bouncing around with nothing underneath.


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## Kaye46 (17 May 2007)

What does money have to do with being 'nice to your horse'? 
Quote "if their stuff was cheaper a lot more people would be nice to their horse"


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## Mid (17 May 2007)

It's a quote from a parelli thing, apparently parelli is you being kind to your horse. Surely if their stuff was cheaper, more people would buy parelli things, and through them, be nicer to their horses.


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## RCAWilson (17 May 2007)

That's my point Kimsavvy, if something goes wrong while someones doing Parelli, it's not the person who gets blamed, it Pat! 
You don't hit your horse aggressively Deadpan, but dominant horses do need reminders at times, in the early stages to 'do as I say but don't be afraid' as Linda says.
I'm am not being an evangelical Parelli is god person- I AM SIMPLY TRYING TO DEFEND AN EXPLAIN A BIT!!!


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## Nickymac (17 May 2007)

No need to shout


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## Mid (17 May 2007)

Also, horses don't play like we do. Humans, and all the other playful animals play in practice for hunting and fighting. They're all predators... Kittens (lol), dogs... Horses are flight animals.


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## henryhorn (17 May 2007)

Yay Bananaman the voice of reason...it infuriates me to hear it called a carrot stick!  (and it is used as a stick believe me, I watched the demo team getting ready behind the arena at a show, carrot my eye...!)


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## xspiralx (17 May 2007)

The reason you don't see these things, is firstly because not all people are interested in building that kind of a bond with their horse, simple as.

Secondly, because a lot of people aren't skilled enough.

However many people do have a fabulous bond with their horse who will do anything for them - but they do not have to prance around bareback to prove it. I could ride my last horse bareback and jump if I wished, but thats not what I'm interested in, so I rarely bothered. You don't have to play "games" to have a good bond with your horse.


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## Mid (17 May 2007)

Exactly - Prancing around bareback is really showing off


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## Doublethyme (17 May 2007)

So are any Parelli advocates going to justify and answer my previous comment about Parelli backing 2 year olds and setting up and competing in distasteful "contests" in the US?    Also, his wife's rather contentious advice to people on how to use your seat on a horse? ie shovelling your backside underneath?

I'm not anti NH at all, use some of the techniques to a lesser or greater extent with my mare and abhor some "traditional" methods, but I do object to Parelli and other NH techniques being marketed and held up by the followers as 100% kinder than anything else.

Plus what about the many NH followers who have left the Parelli umbrella to follow softer versions of the techniques under different instructors/organisations because they felt Parelli was too harsh?!    You only have to read places like the IHDG to know that there are quite a few of these people.

When I have seen demos etc, I have to start with been impressed by the showmanship - it does catch the eye, but the you start to notice the deadness in the eyes of the horses and the automatic "routines" they follow.     It left me with a feeling of wrongness which I can't fully explain, as I do think that the techniques can be useful, but IMO are often over done and practised far too much leading to a horse which is bored stiff, scared to express itself and switched off.


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## Scarlett (17 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
The reason you don't see these things, is firstly because not all people are interested in building that kind of a bond with their horse, simple as.

Secondly, because a lot of people aren't skilled enough.

However many people do have a fabulous bond with their horse who will do anything for them - but they do not have to prance around bareback to prove it. I could ride my last horse bareback and jump if I wished, but thats not what I'm interested in, so I rarely bothered. You don't have to play "games" to have a good bond with your horse. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said.


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## Kaye46 (17 May 2007)

You're right, horses are prey animals but they do play.  They play lots of games with each other e.g. they play at moving each other around (ever watched them play the 'I can move your feet' game?)  and this is practice for moving up the pecking order within the herd.  Parelli is not about doing tricks with your horse, it teaches you about horse behaviour and psychology which you can then use to communicate with horses more effectively
Ever had a horse play the 'I can can nip you and move my head out of the way before you can retaliate' game? The 'I can move away from the mounting block just as you're about to get on game'?
Horses play with us all the time, but we just don't recognise it


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## RCAWilson (17 May 2007)

We who 'do' parelli are not bothered what other people think when watching us with our horses, we realise it looks a bit wierd, 'prancing' around bareback? Right...... all I care about is having fun with my horse! I don't care if you think I'm showing off, you can leave and I will still be doing what I'm doing. I don't let what others think get in the way of my relationship with my horse.
And yes I know horses are flight animals, and that I'm a predator..... god help me.....


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## Tierra (17 May 2007)

Glad someone else commented on Linda Parelli's awful riding position.

As i mentioned in another thread, i saw a video of her demo'ing the basics of her "riding with fluidity" and was appalled by what she was preeching. It was posted on the Enlightened Equitation forums and i cant for the life of me find it (still looking though).

In most worlds what she does is called a chair seat


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## Enfys (17 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Those of you who say 'Parelli does'nt work on all horses' or 'Parelli ruined this horse' etc.
I'd like to see you give that horse to Pat Parelli, I think you would be suprised- he is an amazing horseman, and he has done a wonderful thing by giving us some of his vast knowledge. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure he has his quota of success, so do many, many other unsung horsemen and women from all spheres of equestrianism.

"and he has done a wonderful thing by giving us some of his vast knowledge. "  .....But,  *he's not giving it* , he's a canny businessman, making a living, he's selling it and sometimes making it sound like a quick fix remedy, which it isn't. 

Someone mentioned being able to ride a horse with nothing on it's head, sorry, but that's such a silly and dangerous thing to say. It's not clever when so many impressionable people read, or see, his work. I am pretty sure that if my 11 year old daughter went to see a demonstration she would come home and want to try things, including riding without any form of bridle/halter and not realising that there was far more involved than jumping on and away you go!


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## SavvyHorse (17 May 2007)

you know I've done the BHS riding position and also the Linda Parelli one and do you know which one my horse prefers me to do....yep, you got it the Linda Parelli one. My horses now offer more extended gaits, more natural flexion and I am more in tune with my horses body. Riding like this has helped my horse be freer in her movements. 

I can now ask for wonderful 'on the bit' dressage moves in a rope hackamore with my horse wanting to do this rather than me pulling her neck in to get a position. My horse is giving rather than being told. Cool!

I feel that if more youngsters learned horsemanship rather than about winning competitions first then the competitions later would be won with the dignity of the horse in place and fun had by horse and rider. 

I can honestly say too that Pat does Give lots of his knowledge and his time and his equipement away to lots of people but he's canny enough to give it to those who he knows will really use it and not abuse it. There's nothing worse than giving to people who dont' appreciate it.

Also remember that with all your comments about Linda's position, you are really saying that anyone who rides differently than the BHS style is WRONG....not very nice to western riders for a start. 

Shelley


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## viola (17 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 Exactly - Prancing around bareback is really showing off  

[/ QUOTE ] 

That's so sad to hear someone say things like that 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 My horse had to have a sarcoid removed from girth area and I couldn't ride him in a saddle for 5 months. I didn't want to stop riding him so rode bareback only for all that time. It's amazing how much feel you get for the horse and how more tune in you are through this (and no I am not 'a middle aged woman without common sense' and I was crazy about competing etc back then). I didn't do it to show off but to improve my riding and to keep him fit. 
I was also taught by an 'old school' trainer who thought that if you cannot jump and ride your horse bareback you aren't a good rider


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## Tinypony (17 May 2007)

You can make a training stick quite easily yourself, also rope halters, there are instructions all over the Net.  In fact, to make sure a rope halter fits properly it's best to knot one for each individual horse.  I'm too lazy for that, so have brought mine, but slightly cheaper than Parelli.  Some of the really cheap ones are to be avoided, because of things like rope ends being finished in metal... but that's another story.
Pat P, to be fair, does say "this is so old it's new" - and admits that he has packaged up a load of knowledge in the hope it will make it easier for people to learn.  But it could have been packaged more cheaply possibly.
When I've been to Parelli and other NH clinics I never thought they were that expensive, if you broke it down to a per hour price.  And, as I didn't need to go weekly or anything it didn't break the bank.  
There are aspects of Parelli that can be quite harsh and personally they don't sit well with me.  That is why I and many others moved away from Parelli once we started to study more widely and learn about different approaches.  Certainly for me the fact that I have learnt a lot of NH type stuff doesn't make me feel superior to other horse people, nor do I feel the need to try to imply that they are somehow not as good with their horses.  There are amazing experts on this site who I know think NH is a complete waste of time, and that's not a problem for me, I respect their skill.  They do amazing things like cross country that scare the wits out of me!  
I do sometimes think although that Parelli did a good thing in introducing NH to a lot of people, now that can have a negative impact because it is the best-known approach to NH - but maybe not the best.  So many people think Parelli=NH, which is very far from true.


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## RCAWilson (17 May 2007)

Pat Parelli backing 2 yr olds? Please, I'd like to hear more of this, explain more!!
Distasteful contests? Who can back their horse the fastest? We teach our horses to be very responsive when asked to do something, like back up, so to someone unfamiliar with seeing horse go backwards quickly it might seem odd, but Pat has the horses interests first and would never force a horse to do something or cause unnecessary stress. So a 'contest' to see whose horse is most responsive is hardly what I'd call distastful, but then again...the ignorance thing...
Linda has done nothing new with teaching people to sit 'on their bums' rather then the more dressage seat, have you ever seen western riding? Ever seen reining? The horses are very engaged, rounded, relaxed and responsive. So what's wrong with sitting like this? When taught to sit like this, properly, with no tension, the horses immediately change and relax more, they round and so the consequences of this are (with a proporly fitted saddle, no restricted shoulders) a better topline, more muscle in the right places. However I am not saying they Classical seat it awful, I have studied it for many years and am a great admirer of Sylvia Loch and consider the Late Nuno Oliviera a remarkable man, but not many people are as talented as them. It's just different, that's all, the horses are'nt complaining!
I have never heard of people going to 'softer' methods, I don't really get that. Some people might have a problem with being the 'alpha', though I don't know, some people just can't be bothered I guess.
And deadness of Pat and Linda's horses eyes? What? Sorry but really cannot agree with you there, they are all about having fun, when you see them with their horses, you can see how much fun the horses are having! They always talk about variety and challenges. And scared to express themselves and stiff is COMPLETELY not what they are! I think you are confusing this with calm, unfazed and tuned in horses. Robotic, 'dead'? Absoloutely not.


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## Tierra (17 May 2007)

There are more methods out there than BHS versus Linda Parelli and her position, from a classical point of view, is awful. Im not a fan of BHS methods at all and ive been very vocal of that on here - what does that make me? You have no idea because the ignorance you preech against is EXACTLY what you're displaying here!

Wonderful "on the bit" dressage moves?

Give me a break! You tell us in another post not to be ignorant of methods you know nothing about, how about doing the same? Pulling the neck to get an outline? Who advocates this exactly? Ive been both classically trained and had lessons with a modern dressage rider more inclined towards the German school. Two very contradictory schools of thought and NEITHER of them advocate pulling the horses' neck in precisely because it creates a break in the neck at the incorrect vertebra.

A true outline comes from riding from behind, its nothing to do with pulling the neck in. You know where the FEI guidelines for that wonderful dressage come from? The Spanish Riding School - nothing to do with the BHS at all and still what she teaches and how her horse moves comes nowhere near those guidelines!

You are speaking like you're the only school of thought that puts the horses welfare at the centre of everything you do - once again, wake up.

Incidently, my horse will work "on the bit" as you like to call it on a completly loose rein. Except, "on the bit" for me is a wrong term as it implies some kind of force. So, i'll rephrase, my horse will work in a classically correct outline, on a completly lose rein because he has been taught correctly - classically - thats called self carriage. Whats more his outline is correct, which is not what pat parelli's horses show! There is a world of difference between a bend in the neck and a correct outline.


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## Tinypony (17 May 2007)

I think the video you need to find re backing the 2yr olds is called "In a Whisper".  Pat and two other trainers take baby 2 year olds and race to see who can back them and get them to complete a set of tasks quickest.  It's rather reminicent of watching the Ray Hunt sessions on the Dorrance benefit video.  I must admit, it's not pretty, and Pat is a great heavy lump to be sitting on the baby horse he has.
You say the horses aren't complaining about Riding With Fluidity, but I think you'll find they are.  Last time I was with some Parelli people they were saying that horses were starting to show physical problems.  A good site to search for info on this though is Enlightened Equitation.  They call it Riding With Floppidity on there.  
If you don't know about people going to softer methods... have you been to see other nh trainers in action?  When people talk about softer methods they are generally refering to trainers who teach that it isn't necessary to use 4 increasing phases of pressure.
I have to say, since I moved away from Parelli I have realised that there are trainers out there who do seem a lot fairer on the horses.  And who also seem to be able to manage to get "Level 3" refinement from day 1.  Which did make me rather regret all the time I wasted on my Parelli levels 2 + 3.


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## Doublethyme (17 May 2007)

2 year olds/contests...........I suggest you catch up with a DVD called "in a whisper" - here is a thread on the EE board discussing it.....
EE thread "in a whisper" 

As for your comments about the BHS seat - neither Tierra nor I, who I believe were the two that mentioned about Linda P's seat, mentioned comparing it to the BHS!?

As I said, I'm not anti all parelli stuff, but it does annoy me when its held up as some sort of higher achievement, when many people have happy, healthy horses without it!

Edited to add - you beat me to it Tinypony, with once again, a really good informative post.


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## Kaye46 (17 May 2007)

I think it is great that Parelli will have a base in the UK
There are a lot of views on this subject already expressed and it is a pity that some people who clearly have no knowledge of Parelli are making such negative comments.  I have taken the time to find out more and it works for me.
Prior to this, I was following the traditional route with lessons (at £30 for 30 minutes) from a BHSA instructor.  I, as a rider, didn't make much progress but I did find I was spending an awful lot of money on new tack; I was told that I needed to strap my horse's mouth shut with a flash noseband, then I needed a martingale to keep his head down, then I needed spurs to get more impulsion....then I decided that I needed better instruction because I felt that I shouldn't need all these gadgets.  Don't get me wrong, my instructor was a lovely lady, but she simply couldn't convey to me how to ride in a way I could understand.  And I felt that my horse was suffering because I couldn't communicate with him.  I know that Parelli enthusiasts can sound a little evangelical and believe me, I was VERY sceptical about Parelli before I took the time to find out more.  And yes, they don't pass their information on for free, but neither do any other instructors I've come across.  The reason that Parelli students are so enthusiastic is because the methods work.  The comments about the equipment being expensive are also misplaced.  The quality of the equipment is outstanding. I've used my 12ft lead rope for 4 years, day in day out,  and it is still in virtually perfect condition, same with my halter.  When it comes to horse equipment, you get what you pay for.  
Let's not turn this discussion turn into a slanging match.  Keep an open mind........I took the view that I was never too old to learn something new and I feel that I and my horse have benefitted greatly from being a student of Parelli.  Sometimes it's hard not to feel threatened by different ways of achieving things.  I wasn't achieving the things I wanted to, and I looked for an alternative and I'm glad I did.


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## ruthc (17 May 2007)

Ok, I'm going to do my best to try to explain what Linda and Pat's method of teaching have done for me, in particular Linda's method of teaching how to ride with "fluidity".  I was not a good rider - I had very little natural feel so was always too slow to reward my horse when it tried to do the right thing for me.  My balance wasn't great so I relied on the reins to keep me upright. I was stiff, hollow-backed and wedged my feet into the stirrups because I didn't trust myself to relax.  By following the Parelli method I gradually became aware of what my body was doing, I learned that by sitting further back on my seat pockets I felt more secure and could keep out of my horse's way, I learned that by exaggerating movements in my body I could put myself in the right position and set my horse up for success. By riding bareback I learned to stay in harmony with my horse's movement.  I know that all these things look odd to people who don't know the programme, but all we are doing is "exaggerating to teach and refining as we go along".  I'm not saying that this is the only way to teach this, but it is the only way that has made sense to me and my horse. I can now bend my horse by just bending my own ribs and stop by just breathing out and relaxing.  That may not be a great achievement for many people but for me and my horse it is huge.  We are just trying to be the best humans we can be for our horses - there's nothing wrong with that.


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## Doublethyme (17 May 2007)

I wasn't aware the it was a slanging match, most of us are just expressing our views as HHO requested!    Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't make us wrong and vice versa, but once again in your post you have worded it in such a way as to make Parelli the only thing that could possibly work and other methods wrong.

You could well have just changed your obviously insufficient instructor for another one who followed non NH methods and got similar results than you had from Parelli.

I'm not saying it doesn't work for some people and horses, but what really gets my back up is the opinion of Parelli followers that they are higher beings and better than everyone else.    This is only my personal experience, but that is what was asked for on this thread.


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## Judie (17 May 2007)

QR

I went to one of his two day seminars at Solihull and found him very entertaining and funny.

However, I don't think there is anything wrong in 'his' training techniques as I don't think there is anything wrong in classical training etc etc, each to their own and if some people enjoy playing games with their horses that they don't ride for whatever reason, then fine, let them be. It isn't personally for me but then I am confident in my own ability to do what I deem necessary for each individual horse I train, but others do need a plan to follow.


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## Faithkat (17 May 2007)

Exactly!   Like HOW MUCH????   Methinks they are extracting the p**s
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## Tinypony (17 May 2007)

I gotta apologise here - I felt maybe I wasted my time on levels 1 + 2 - I left before completing 3!


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## SavvyHorse (17 May 2007)

Sorry Tierra and Doublethyme, didn't mean to upset you. I totally agree with you about the spanish school and I too don't like the wording of 'on the bit' but know that most people know what that means. 

I too ride from behind, getting the horses' hindquarters in a good position and allowing the horses back to come up and thereby self carriage. I'm sorry my vocabulary isn't good. 

I'm not making out that PNH is the only way just that it can and is a good way for a lot of people. Incidently Pat and Linda have been to the Spanish school (specially invited) and they were praised there by their methods and riding skills. 

It's great there are so many people doing great things with their horses. Lots of you are here which is fab, but there are lots of others who aren't so self-confident and who have not such good teachers. Any method that helps people and keeps the dignity of the horse is good in my opinion. The basic safety and learning of Parelli has set a lot of people up to go onto other good trainers later on and to know they've got a good trainer. Some aren't so lucky.


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## Tierra (17 May 2007)

Aaaah yes, i remember now... "sitting on your pockets"

Sit back in the way she does and shovelling doesnt promote roundness from the horse. Indeed, demos of her riding show this. Sure she shuffles out some poor lateral movements on a horse with a bent neck but theres no correct roundness over the back. Why? Because she isn't allowing that roundness. By grinding with your seat - chair seat, sitting on your pockets, seat polishing... whatever you want to call it - you force the horse to hollow away from you, not to round up under you.

Her sitting trot is absorbed bilaterally which creates a lot of wobbling in the pelvis and more seat shovelling - again this directly affects her horses ability to round over the back.

Hollow backed - im not quite sure how hollow backed you were riding but please be aware, the human back isn't straight. I get completly enraged by teaching methods that scream "keep your back straight" at its students. How? Its impossible. The only way to keep the back straight is to sit back "onto your pockets" as the term maybe in the parelli teaching. The human spined has a curve at the bottom.... thats biology.

In her lateral work she uses her weight and seat to try and push her horses sideways... and yes, they do go sideways. The reason for this is quite simple - the horse will always try and balance the rider as best it can. If you push with your seat or lean with your seat, your horse will step sideways as he tries to "catch" you. The result is a very shuffly lateral movement which is exactly what is shown in her demos. Her halfpass, which appears to be her favourite demo movement, is fundamentally incorrect, more often than not the bend isnt right, the quarters are leading and again, there is ZERO connection over the horses back... it flops along sideways because its being pushed over by the riders weight

Her hands follow the movement of the horses neck... i assume this is used to create some sense of "giving" or kindness. For a horse to work up and into a outline, there needs to be a contact at lower levels. Throwing the rein at the horse while "following" its movement doesnt do this. At higher levels, you can afford to give such slack in the rein and self carriage should take over. But there is no point in generating the energy unless you control it! With no rein contact you let the engery go straight out of the front door and again, give zero chance of connection over the horses back.

To refine the aids and be completly intune with the horse, the rider needs tone and poise... riding in "fluidity" is ignoring this and seems to argue that its the only way to stay relaxed enough to "allow" movement.

In conclusion, let me put another way of thinking to you.

Parelli advocates argue that their methods are conpletly horse central.. the well being of the animal is always the most important thing.  

For a horse to be ridden in the way to preserve itself - anatomically speaking - it needs to be rounded over the back. A hollow back is a weak back and a rider on top of this will cause undue wear and tear. In none of the footage ive seen nor in a demo i had the misfortune of attending have i ever seen Linda ride a horse correctly so its rounded and connected over its back. As riders its our responsibility to enjoy the sport we love without detriment to our beloved horses... yet a core underlying issue is being ignored in regards to the horses physical welfare by the methods preeched by linda parelli.


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## Tierra (17 May 2007)

If you ride like Linda you are NOT allowing the horses back to come up. You're pressing against the back in a shovelling position that causes the horse to hollow away from you.

No where have i seen her ride where her horse has been connected over its back. It may be going forwards, it may be tracking up, it may have a neck bend but they are never ever connected or rounded correctly under the saddle.


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## Kaye46 (17 May 2007)

I didn't say that other methods weren't right and neither did I say that Parelli was the only thing that could possibly work. I just stated that I tried a traditional instructor (in fact I tried 2) and it didn't work for me. Then I tried Parelli and it did work, so, obviously, I'm going to be enthusiastic about the method.  If the traditional approach had worked, I would have stuck with it.  
And why do you think that Parelli followers think they are 'higher beings'? They are different, granted, but that doesn't make them better (or worse) than anyone else.


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## RCAWilson (17 May 2007)

I never mentioned BHS, Classical yes.
Tinypony, the reason peoples horses backs hurt are because of badly fitting saddles, wrong position and/or tension. Done properly, it's great!
And by the way, I am not saying everyone who does'nt do parelli is crap, because that's not true, however, most people just don't understand horses and how they tick, most people just get their horses, groom, tack up, ride, un tack, finished. That's not much fun for a horse is it?
But Pat and Linda have enabled me to do so much more, and the way my horse looks at me is great now, he pricks his ears and whickers at me, I can read horses now, and me and my horse are so much happier, all thanks to them, so thank you Pat and Linda! Now I am more like a horse for my horse, rather then a boring predator. 
Call that evengelical, what ever, I really don't care.
GO PARELLI!


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## Tierra (17 May 2007)

Thats not true... are you aware of the demonstration that leading equine osteopath Gavin Schofield and classical rider Heather Moffett did for Cambridge university a few years back?

It was regarding the rider's position and the effect it has on the horse's back. 

They demo'd a number of common riding faults from being chair seated (sat on your pockets) to being sat too much on your "fork" and the weight distribution of these positions was measured.

Using a chair seat, shovelling with the seat and landing heavily on the saddle (which goes hand in hand with rounding your back and sitting back too much) caused enormous amounts of pressure on the part of the back where the back of the saddle sits - precisely the area suseptible to bruising and damage from a poorly sat rider.


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## Tinypony (17 May 2007)

Tierra has explained it for me.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




One thing I understand has improved a bit in Parelli is that there is less use of repetetive patterns, is that right?  I've known a few horses that have broken down after a long session of Clover Leaf or cantering around the outside of a round corral to fix some problem or other.


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## Daphnelia (17 May 2007)

I saw a parelli demo a year or so ago, didnt pay for it though. Thought it was interesting and asked about how you'd become a teacher, cost etc

you ready for this?

24 GRAND to qualify.
Thats twice as much as my degree! Put me right off them. IMO anybody who is the least bit interested in actually promoting horse welfare wouldnt price so many people out the market. If they really care, they should be making it accessible to as many people as they can. And how can they justify charging so much for the kits too? Its unreal....
Shame cause Id like to have a go at it. But theres no way I will have that kind of money spare for a while...


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## RCAWilson (17 May 2007)

Yes I am aware.
And yes it is true.
A badly fitting saddle, a bad position and/or tension, are bad.
People are confusing the chair seat with the fluidity concept.
A tradition chair seat in a tradition english saddle is not good.
There is tension in the body and weight (pushing) in the stirrups.
Western horses don't have all theses problems do they?
This is because the saddle is designed to spread the weight over a much larger area, coupled with a relaxed, flowing rider on top.
You don't ride western in a dressage saddle and you don't ride dressage in a western saddle.
Linda's fluidity methods are supposed to be used with a saddle and pad system which merges the best of english saddles and the best of western saddles (a very wide gullet and large weight distribution). The results are free shoulders, and amazing pad which eliminates any pressure points, spreads the weight over a larger area, like a western saddle. There is no, I quote, 'enormous amounts of pressure on the part of the back where the back of the saddle sits-precisely the area suseptible to bruising and damage', it is so much more comfortable for the horse, and it looks like an englsh saddle so does'nt look wierd.
So please, stop refering to the chair seat, as this is not what it is!! Think more a combination of western and english saddleing and riding techniques.
Glad I cleared that up! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




This my last post of the day, so please, if you have any questions, just PM me. Thanks!


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## mystiandsunny (17 May 2007)

I have heard a lot of bad about Parelli, and some good.  

Without it (unless she's on box rest), I can ride and jump my horse in an arena without bridle or saddle.  She follows me around if I take off her headcollar wherever we are, 'cause she wants to stay with me.  She is still herself, states her opinions about things with her body language and manages to communicate quite well without me having to read any books/watch DVDs.  She understands how to play tag (with oh and his pony) and loves it.  She actively enjoys being ridden, and sulks if I don't for a while.

My OH has only 4 years' experience of horses.  His pony visibly brightens on seeing him and when called will charge across the field, neighing her hello.  If she is scared, she jumps behind him, if nervous, she rests her muzzle on his arm for reassurance.  She looks after him when he rides, as he is a novice, and will not go beyond a certain pace if she thinks he's not steady enough.  If he falls, she stops and sniffs him, all concerned, until he gets up.  If another horse approaches while he's down, she will chase them off, trying to protect him.  Oh, and this is a pony who does not just let anyone handle her, and for anyone other than him, is anything but a novice ride.  

Love is free, and combined with kindness, works wonders!


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## Kate_13 (17 May 2007)

Over priced commensense indeed! 

Interesting that the people praising parelli don't normally come to this forum. 

As for that Saavy girl or whoever you are, I think you'll find that western riders have a similar seat to dressage riders!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have ridden western, dressage, jumping and many other things and the seat and aids are the same! 

We all know that the horse must be ridden from behind and with or without parelli we can all achieve it, whether in headcollar, bridle, saddle or bareback, beacuse we all adopt the same riding position!

We all have fun with our horses, just because we decide it is our enjoyment to hack, do dressage, jumping or western doesn't mean we are having any less fun than you lot waving an orange stick at a horse!

I am not anti natural horsemanship and have a lot of respect for Kelly marks and Monty Roberts and have used some of their techniques.

How dare you say that just because we don't wave orange sticks and push gym balls around the school that our horses don't love us or follow us around!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stick to what you know best and we will stick to ours.

*goes off to stamp feet*


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## ruthc (17 May 2007)

Thanks for that explanation - you obviously have a lot of experience in this area.  Like I say, I am only a student who is still learning, but I have had the priviledge of studying with Linda and Pat out in Colorado and I think that Linda's methods of teaching fluidity have been developed and refined a lot since she made the first DVD.  When she was explaining it to us it was very clear that the end goal was a horse with a rounded back that could carry itself and the rider comfortably, but before that it had to be relaxed in its mind and body and confident with the contact through the bit.  That is certainly how both Linda's and Pat's horses looked to me.   Please excuse me if I am not using all the correct language to describe this, but I think we are all trying to achieve the same thing.


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## SavvyHorse (17 May 2007)

I actually come on here often to read but dont' post...I can see now why I don't. 

I think that everyone should have fun with their horses, I never said people here didn't, I just said I did too. 

Each to their own. Have fun with your horses especially now that the Summer is coming. 

I am glad Parelli has got an office now in the UK again and I hope the people that find it interesting have fun enjoying it. I think that's what the topic was about!


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## Mid (17 May 2007)

When a horse moves away from the mounting block, it's because he doesn't want to go riding.

I agree, they do play, but not like our games. They have to have a winner, it's how they establish pecking order, and if a horse 'wins' a Parelli game, it sends him very mixed messages.


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## Mid (17 May 2007)

I've found that the further back you sit (this is coming from riding a stumpy little highland pony, who doesn't really care what you do) the less responsive the horse is, and that he almost tries to run away with you, rather then with you. It just upsetted his balance.


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## Weezy (17 May 2007)

What do I think of Parelli?  I think it is bloody dangerous.  Open minded (naive?) people spend £260 on a starter pack that oozes and schmoozes and makes them believe they are going to venture down a path of enlightenment and be wonderful - Oh, another word for that is brainwashing 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  The danger is that people who buy these kits are not actively encouraged to work with someone who actually knows what they are doing - it is like giving the handbook for a 747 to someone and telling them they can fly it - dangerous.

Clever marketing and a cult-like following will always ensure there are people that will follow their idol and shout about his greatness - this does not make it right.

I use NH techniques EVERY day I am with horses, but I picked it all up as a youngster who was lucky enough to be around people who had an empathy with horses.  I am actually horrified that people are cashing in - truth is, if they REALLY HONESTLY cared about horses they would offer this knowledge for free, or for a small donation.

I do not think Stoneleigh is the place for a Parelli base, leaves a rather sour taste in my mouth.


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## henryhorn (17 May 2007)

I am not at all happy that it is based at Stoneleigh because it gives it a sort of "Official" recommendation, almost as if it's on a level with BE, BD or the BSJA.
I feel this is a pure money making system and is a tool for wrecking horses unless used under supervision of accredited parelli trainers.
A lot of thought has gone into the creation of it and I have no real beef with its' founders, but they underestimate the ignorance of the public; in the wrong hands like any other system, it's open to abuse.
I do feel it should not be allowed to be based alongside the other organisations..


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## spaniel (17 May 2007)

QR...


"So, I guess, you get these results from your common sense,
your horse runs to you from the field when he sees you at the gate, he is as light and responsive as you could possibly want- on the ground and on his back, your horse is always tuned into you? Your horse is free, no rope attached and he follows you around running, walking, turning and stopping, mirroring you, he asks you questions? He has total confidence and trust in you, your horse sees you as a fun human, yes? You play with your horse. He is completely respectful of your space, as you are of his.
You can ride your horse bridleless and bareback, cantering, jumping, in harmony, happy, in control? Of course! "

Well actually ....YES  all of my horses for the last 38 years.

Sorry....achieved by common sense and not by spending a fortune on hyped methods.


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## Kate_13 (17 May 2007)

Wheezy, you are so right, a cult it is. Forgot to mention that in my post was too busy ranting!


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## Mid (17 May 2007)

"Wheezy, you are so right, a cult it is. Forgot to mention that in my post was too busy ranting!"

It even has levels that you have to pay a certain amount to finish


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## Tierra (17 May 2007)

Oh and incase it wasnt clear, i agree with both Weezy and henryhorn about their place at Stoneleigh - im so angry with this but equally, find it hilariously funny that they believe they have a place there. They really think rather a lot of theirselves... unfortunatly for them its not shared by all


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## Kate_13 (17 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
... unfortunatly for them its not shared by all 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not by quite a lot by the sounds of it!


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## Skhosu (17 May 2007)

Could anyone post a picture of a horse enjoying parelli? they all seem to look bored to me..
is it parelli whic advocates the wip wop?


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## mickey (17 May 2007)

Have not read all the posts on here BUT:

I bought a Parelli pack a few yrs back having seen a demo at the NEC. 

I use Parelli methods and also some of the Kelly Marks/Monty Roberts methods with my horse. I would not say I religiously apply these methods. I do some of the Parelli games with my horse perhaps once every few weeks. 

The groundwork has helped to improve my relationship with my horse. It has led to increased respect for 'my space' and stopped him overtaking me when being led or barging forwards. I do believe that the Parelli principle of horse moving away from pressure is sound and can be carried through to ridden work.

I also find that the Parelli groundwork adds variety to my horse's exercise regime.

The only concern I have is that I do believe it is important to have help on the ground if you are inexperienced. Subtle changes in body language can be influential on the horse when engaging in Parelli work and if you are not experienced you could end up in trouble.

Overall though I have enjoyed using the work/principles and feel my horse and I have benefited.


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## the watcher (17 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

is it parelli whic advocates the wip wop? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't think so..I like the wip wop thing, but I learned to ride western..with long reins and no stick or whip - those long reins come in very handy


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## RuthR (17 May 2007)

Firstly, I'm really happy to see Parelli coming back to the UK in such a big way.  From my point of view it is only a good thing.

Secondly, I want to share a little bit of my experience with Parelli - I'm not saying it is right or wrong it is simply my experience.

I went through Pony Club with my pony who was, and still is, a very good pony.  We had a wonerful relationship and I thought I was a pretty good rider.  Then I got my horse and that was a completely different kettle of fish!  For the first 6 months of having him I was bucked off every single time I rode him - and I was trying to dressage, the picture of harmony between horse and human.  I don't think we had much harmony!  I was having lessons in dressage and in one lesson (45 mins) I was bucked off 5 times - thats once every 9 minutes!  Doesn't do much for your confidence.

Thats when I saw a Parelli demonstration and decided to give it a go - the worst that could happen was that it wouldn't improve the situation.  I saw results from the first session and I haven't looked back since.  My horse has become a true partner and we have a wonderful relationship.  I have got back my confidence and my horse has built up his confidence in me as a leader too.  Some people have said its over priced but I actually think its quite cheap!  Initially it might seem that it is expensive but in the long run I have saved so much money.  It's also helped me find the fun in horses again.

Some people have said its about showing off and bareback riding - its not although you can make it about that.  What Parelli is really about is the principles.  Pat talks about the six keys of success - Attitude, Knowledge, Tools, Techniques, Time and Imagination.  The tools are only one part of it...an important part but only one part.  The tools are nothing if you don't have the rest in place too - that's why a carrot stick is not a schooling whip - the attitude behind the use of both is often (not always, but often) very different.  Parelli most importatly, when done correctly, will preserve the horses dignity.  Like anything in the horse industry though it is only as good the person doing it.  Also, since doing Parelli I have probably been the safest I have ever been with my horses in all my years of being with horses - in fact level 1 is all about being safe with your horse.

That's pretty much all I want to say although I could go on.  I respect everyone's opinions so I hope that you would all respect mine.  I haven't written this to try to change people's minds about Parelli - its is simply a testimant of my own experince.


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## Rachel_M (17 May 2007)

Common sense, basic horsemanship as said, just re branded.


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## Weezy (17 May 2007)

May I ask how you went about re-training your horse and how your ridden work is going now?


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## TheBlackMoth (17 May 2007)

What's really interesting here - and this is from a non rider - is how many new members have joined up to defend parelli and how few long standing members are raving about it.

To be honest - it seems quite cultish - all these new people raving about it in an almost evangelical way.  Not trying to be offensive - always good to have new people join - as long as they join in - rather than turn up to preach.


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## Weezy (17 May 2007)

You are right Nuala, and I think that is why it gets people's backs up - it is not dissimilar to a cult and there is a definite evangelical preaching surrounding it!


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## Tinypony (17 May 2007)

Yep, and I've been where they are, so I know how they feel.  But you can get over it with isolation techniques and good debriefing people.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




I'm not defending Parelli, this is a general comment.  Who of us can afford to work for nothing?  I know it's a nice idea to have people sharing their knowledge and skill for free from some sort of philanthropic impulses, but if they don't charge how will they live?
I do know of one NH trainer who says she is now giving her knowledge for free - Ingela Sainsbury who has the Kingdom Horse website.  I'm told she's rather wealthy and I guess she'd have to be.  I haven't seen her teach for years, so don't know what she's like these days.


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## NaturalTwo (17 May 2007)

The reason so many new people are here is that it's kind of a first to have a Parelli story covered in H&amp;H (which is why this thread first started I think). As you can see from many of the anti-Parelli posts, dare I say that this isn't the nicest playground to play in. But there are so many people who are passionate about the improved relationships they've got with their horses and what that's meant for their riding (and I count myself in that) that it seems a shame not to share.

Unfortunately it can come across as cultish, I can see that, but it's really just a group of really enthusiastic people! Simple as that. It's the same as someone being potty about, I don't know, a new saddle they've bought and telling all their mates about the change in their horse's pace and freedom of shoulder movement. You know? When you find something good you just want to share it. And one of the aspects of Parelli is that it can be kind of infectious. In a good way of course!  Many people don't evangelize (and quite right, that can be a pain in the rear end!) because for one thing they get a lot of uninformed negative feedback. A lot of people who use Parelli get a lot of negative feedback even when they don't evangelize and just go about their daily business.   I don't know what it is that makes people do that - fear of something new? Fear that it might challenge something they've accepted for years? That's natural. But I know of a number of people who would post here but won't for that very reason. They're just happy to get on doing what they're doing and enjoying it. Leading by example is always the better way, in anything. You can lead a horse to water, and all that.


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## Weezy (17 May 2007)

Well OK, point taken, but how much does this pack cost to put together - I will bet it is around a tenner


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## Tinypony (17 May 2007)

I don't know how much it costs to put together, but I do know that retailers tend to have a rather large mark-up on their products whatever they are selling.  That's life.  Also, import duty pushes prices up on anything imported from the States.
But that sounds like I'm defending Parelli, and I'm not.  I am an NH student, that is in that I have learnt a lot about it, but I've been around horses all my life.  I have chosen to study with other trainers who I prefer (and who do have the odd DVD to refer to, but much more home-made and cheaper).


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## TheBlackMoth (17 May 2007)

"As you can see from many of the anti-Parelli posts, dare I say that this isn't the nicest playground to play in."

Well as most of us play happily in this playground everyday I think we probably do think it's nice.  You are hardly likely to win friends and influence people if you start by being rude about them!

To be honest most of us can make up our own minds about things.  I have no problem with people making a profit - after all we live in a capitalist world - but when it's dressed up as 'doing good' - ie caring for animals  - I get suspicious.

There is room for all attitudes in the world - however, what distinguishes a cult is the belief that this is the only way.

You and your friends are not doing yourself any favours in your approach - my reading of this is that something like this has happened.  One of you occasionally come on the HHO forum - and has seen the question and rushed back to a Parelli forum and said quick - they are discussing Parelli at HHO - I need back up!!!!

I am a great believer in live and let live - what works for some will be a disaster for others!


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## NaturalTwo (17 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

is it parelli whic advocates the wip wop? 

[/ QUOTE ]

The wip wop is Monty Roberts/Intelligent Horsemanship.

But I ride either in a hackamore or a bridle that has the extra rein which is tied to my saddle. Most of the time (usually all the time) it just sits there, but it can be used to get impulsion - start off with life up, if horse doesn't up gait then a leg squeeze, then still if not moving use the end of the spare rein to 'slap' my shoulders to create some rhythmic motion. The idea being to teach the horse to learn what to do so that annoying rhythmic motion doesn't happen, as in 'oh, to stop her doing that, all I have to do is move up a gait/move forward when my rider's life is up!'

The second use is as an instant handy lead rope if you need to get off or tie up at the pub...


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## Skhosu (17 May 2007)

I think the idea of the wip wop is a misguided notion. I read instructions for it, which is basically, begin doing this and then keep doing it harder, a rope to me is going to cause pain when used as such! And is making the horse do something through fear...not very NH.
but that's just a little rant off my chest.
As I say, I have not ever seen a horse enjoying parelli.


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## NaturalTwo (17 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
"As you can see from many of the anti-Parelli posts, dare I say that this isn't the nicest playground to play in."

Well as most of us play happily in this playground everyday I think we probably do think it's nice.  You are hardly likely to win friends and influence people if you start by being rude about them!

To be honest most of us can make up our own minds about things.  I have no problem with people making a profit - after all we live in a capitalist world - but when it's dressed up as 'doing good' - ie caring for animals  - I get suspicious.

There is room for all attitudes in the world - however, what distinguishes a cult is the belief that this is the only way.

You and your friends are not doing yourself any favours in your approach - my reading of this is that something like this has happened.  One of you occasionally come on the HHO forum - and has seen the question and rushed back to a Parelli forum and said quick - they are discussing Parelli at HHO - I need back up!!!!

I am a great believer in live and let live - what works for some will be a disaster for others! 

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't mean to be rude, please forgive me. My online posting talents probably aren't as savvy as they could be, ho ho.

As for people making their own minds up, I agree with you 100%. 

It's just an interesting debate and it's good to hear what other people think. I haven't really looked at this forum before but I do subscribe to H&amp;H. I've had a look at a lot of the other threads and there's lots of interesting discussions going on which I hope now to take part in. For me this doesn't have to be black and white, but it IS interesting how this is such a controversial topic! All good fun.


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## Tinypony (17 May 2007)

You know how we all have an anecdote about Parelli students who mess up their horses?  Or who are afraid to ride?  And they are picking up ideas from DVD's and books and it's dangerous because they don't get proper instruction?
Well - don't we see that sort of thing all the time around horses?  People wandering around a tack shop picking up the latest gadget and sticking it on their horse without proper instruction.  Then most livery yards have the person that faffs about with their horse and puts off riding it.  And of course the resident expert who has got it all out of books, or by watching some videos and now thinks they can make it work with their horse.
I think what I'm trying to say is, it's not just with Parelli that all these dangerous and worrying things happen, it happens all the time.  The Parelli students are just a bit more visible because they wear orange sticks and have savvy strings looped through their belts.  As long as there are books to read, DVD's to watch and things to spend money on, people will get into tangles with horses.  And if they didn't have all that then they'd manage it anyway.


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## RuthR (17 May 2007)

Weezy you can most certainly ask how my riden work is going and my answer would be very well thank-you.  Once I got my ground work to a certain place the ridden work started to fall into place.  My horse now will put effort into gettin near the fence for me to mount where as before he would move away as soon as he realised I wanted to get on.  To me that is a sign he is ready and willing to accept me on his back.

We have made huge progressions in his ridden work in walk, trot and canter and I haven't been bucked off once since doing parelli.  I can ask him to go into a gait and he will stay in that gait until told otherwise - I no longer need to nudge with every stride.  He offers to extend and collect at the slightest  suggestion; to go up or down a gait at a change in my life - I can yawn and he will stop from any gait.  He follows my focus and turns when I turn in my body - all of this is done with little or no contact with the reins.  There is no force and no fight. It means that when I do pick up the rein it is only for 'dancing' - for refined communication.  I don't depend on the reins for control - they are there for communication.  Don't get me wrong, its been a long time to get here but that was mainly due to my confidence being so badly damaged by previous experiences.  We still have a ways to go aswell to where I want to be but I know we will get there.

Nuala, the reason why you're finding so many 'new members' posting about their positive experiences of Parelli is because we often don't spend time in these types of forums.  There are many forums out there on the internet that are set up for 'natural' discussions.  Maybe that does make it appear like a 'cult' and that is probably a downfall on our part.  I am not perfect and I know it and I would think that most people who do Parelli would say the same but when 'natural' discussions come up in places like this you can feel very much like you are being chastised almost for believing what you believe.  I say, live and let live - I share my views and you share your views and at worse we agree to disagree.  But maybe if more people were slightly openminded we could learn from each other and who knows that might be of benifit to the horse.

The Parelli's have formed friendships with people like Walter Zettl, Luis Luisco, Craig Johnston and Luca Moneta who are wonderful riders and are well respected in their own fields.  In thier friendships the Parelli's share their beliefs about horse psychology and in return they learn more about developing horses to a higher level in a natrual way that is fun for the horse.  I have high goals in the area of dressage but I want it to be fun for my horse - if my horse is recreation for me, can I be recreation for my horse?  The answer is starting to be yes more often.

I'm not saying that all traditional methods are bad - far from it.  Both Traditional and Natural methods can be good and bad - as I said before it depend on who is doing it and the attitude behind the tools and techniques.  I'm in it for my horse and my horse has shown me that he likes me a lot more since I started Parelli.  Believe me, horses do speak to us...its up to us to listen.


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## Skhosu (17 May 2007)

'Schooling whip: £4.99
Carrot Stick: £24.99
Bamboo Stick: 50p
'
sorry...that made my howl with laughter.................anyway


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## Tinypony (17 May 2007)

I thought a wip wop was just a bit of soft thick rope, knotted at each end and then frayed to make tassels.  Wouldn't you have to go it some to hurt a horse with that?
Ah, not quite - here's a wip wop.
http://www.horseandharmony.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&amp;products_id=283


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## Weezy (17 May 2007)

Thanks Ruth, I wish you continuing success with your horse.  It is really reassuring to hear that someone can see things from both sides of the fence.  Whilst, of course, it is very tough for someone like myself to understand that groundwork instantly cured your horse's bucking problem (as in instantly when you got back on after doing the groundwork, not *in an instant*) if it has worked that dramatically then there must be something in it - I think they may well be your attitude to look and listen and realise Parelli is not the be all and end all!


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## RuthR (17 May 2007)

Hello again Weezy,

I must say that most of the bucking problem was caused by my horse not enjoying being ridden!  He was just expressing his opinion to having me on my back.  I think that if you gain trust and a relationship as well as respect on the ground first then it is a logical step to think that that would impact on the riden work.  

Its not to say that he never bucks now - because sometimes he will but again its feedback (its also now more of a bunnyhop - not like the broncing he used to do!) - maybe I've been to quick or to strong or I'm blocking him some way.  If he does anything I don't expect instead of instantly blaming him I take a moment to think 'Hmm...why did he do that?  Was it because of something I did?'  99% of the time it is because of something I have done and as soon as I correct myself the behaviour will stop.  

It would take a lot to convince me that Parelli is not worthwhile because without it I doubt I would still have a horse but equally I can see that there is some good in properly applied traditional techniques.  I admire people who can do all this by themselves - I couldn't and need to be shown how to do it and Parelli helped me with that more than the years of Pony Club teaching ever did. 

One of the things I have developed through Parelli is patience - not only with horses but with people too.  I hope that comes across in my posts - I consider my words very carefully so that I don't cause offence to anyone whilst still trying to get my view across.  I'm open to a discussion but not if both sides can't step back and see the other side of the arguement.  Again, something I have learnt through Parelli - the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes (or hooves ;-) ).


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## Lawrence (18 May 2007)

It has bits in the programme that are designed for horses and bits  that are for humans.  Sometimes, and I have seen horses break down as a result, the human bits are overdone to the detriment of the horse.  But I would not be where I am today if it were not for Parelli, I am different around horses and see things from their point of view.  Take for instance a Fun Ride, had the chance to practise water crossings, not a done deal until my horse could tackle them on his own and content to stand calmly then continue on our way.  He gave several other horses a lead through.  The only approach I could see from them was scream Get On, and use their whips.  I suggested approach and retreat, reverse physcology (spelling - sorry) only to be met with blank looks!!  Saw the funny side and soon will be departing this island for Texas, will sit on my porch and chuckle to myself.  There are loads of different trainers etc out there, Tom Dorrance, Buck Brannaman, now I always watch and maybe just take one nugget of knowledge from all of them.  If it benefits my horses that is the most important thing of all.  Trying to find info or demo's for easy loading onto 747's,  just take it all in our stride!  Off to give my four legged friends their treats, tomatoes for one, oranges, pears, and melon, grapes and definetley not the mints with the hole!  Hopefully this forum will broaden minds.  Nicest compliment was thoroughbred owner shouting, wish my horse was easy to cross water like yours!  That was our first outing, first water encounter, in fact loads of firsts that day.  Would have liked to have told her, but I know if I had mentioned Parelli was part of it, she might have just glazed over!!


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## foxigypsi (18 May 2007)

Fact: TB's all over the world are backed and raceing at the age of 2 years, as are quarter horses so age is irrelivant for certain breeds as they develop quicker...although I do agree to make a race of backing is unfair and pat isn't exactly light. We all make bad desisions in life, only some have a perminant record of them be a little forgiving.


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## foxigypsi (18 May 2007)

I am a huge fan of Parelli and have read ALL of the posts here. I personally have found the help and confidence it has given me priceless. I agree that it is great if many none Parelli people are finding Natural and good ways using common scense, but I also agree that not everyone has common scense and could certainly use help from any direction. I see some terribly cruel things where people loose there tenper or just simply don't have a clue.

Parelli is given for free to those they feel would benefit most. It is used to encourage the disabled and allow them to achieve things they never believed possible for them. It has also been used with Juvenille Delinquents to aid in teaching them that their behaviour and attitude can directly affect their ability to reach a goal. Many apply this to their life after  their time with the horses.

I personally am extreamly pleased that Parelli is comming to Stoneleigh.

Also I would like to note that I get Parelli instruction from a propper instructer for £20 an hour which is cheaper than other types of lessons by me. I also agree that I have had my Parelli kit for 4 years now and have not had to replace anything or add to it in anyway. My husband brought a cheaper version of the equiptment, because of the expense and 1 1/2 years later it is all fraying and falling appart.


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## ruthc (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
What's really interesting here - and this is from a non rider - is how many new members have joined up to defend parelli and how few long standing members are raving about it.

To be honest - it seems quite cultish - all these new people raving about it in an almost evangelical way.  Not trying to be offensive - always good to have new people join - as long as they join in - rather than turn up to preach. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, new people have turned up on the site to take part in this forum, but that can only be a good thing.  I think the debate that has gone on has been a good one and I hope it has allowed us all to see things from each other's point of view.  I for one have learned that some of you are lucky enough to have fantastic relationships with your horses because you have the natural ability and experience.  I hope that some of you have learned that Parelli can offer people who may not have these natural talents a chance to develop them so they can also have a relationship with their horses based on trust and communication.  We all want the same thing it's just that we have to take different journeys to get there.  I hope that there are many more opportunities to share ideas and show that we're not a "cult", just a group of people who love what we do.


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## TheBlackMoth (18 May 2007)

Unfortunately - I believe the approach that has been taken here will have put more people off than encouraged them to try.  Just my opinion - and remember it doesn't affect me - I am a non rider - but the level of unthinking acceptance and evangelism demonstrated is slightly scary.


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## mandymcl (18 May 2007)

How interesting! So many people are confident to pass negative comments on what they think of Parelli when they clearly haven't taken the time understand what it's all about?
    If everybody took the time to understand what Parelli means the horse world would be a changed world. . . . Horses would be confident, trusting and safe and we could all live our dream of that 'perfect partnership'.

I have only spent the last couple of weeks gaining the knowledge of Parelli and my whole life has changed for the better. I have loved horses for over thirty years and this is the moment I have been waiting for all my life.....my dream is about to become a reality thanks to Pat and Linda Parelli, THANK YOU.

  CAN'T WAIT TO SEE PARELLI AT THE BIRMINGHAM NEC IN AUGUST.


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## JM07 (18 May 2007)

Good, common-sense old fashioned horsemanship, re-packaged and "americanised" with a hefty price-tag.


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## PaddyMonty (18 May 2007)

For me parelli falls in to the same category as a lot of other training aids......,..If you are experienced enough to use it properly without risk to horse then you probably dont need it


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## Dovorian (18 May 2007)

I'm totally opposed to the location, purely because it gives 'credibility' without proper foundation.  Parelli is a good example of the entrepreneur at work -  excellent marketing and seems a good way for the founders to make money.


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## Kate_13 (18 May 2007)

I still can't help but think that it is all 'brainwashing!'.

The way that you are all 'explaining' about parelli is somewhat condrascending (sp?). You are all basically saying that if we don't wave a bit of string and an orange stick then we can't have a proper partnership with our horse! 

What a load of tosh!

How do you think we back horses???? We spend weeks on the ground building trust and partnership and leadership with our horse, then we hop on! I have to say that with every horse I've backed I've built up a good relationship and not one of those horses refused to be sat on. One I sat on in the yard in just a headcollar and rode around! (oooh am I now a parelli follower? No, just in tune with my horse)

Please can you guys stop saying that just because we are not a cult follower that our horses don't like us and that we can't ride in true lightness! 

As someone has said, we are all achieveing the same goal, so why preech to us about orange sticks!!!

And while I am ranting, some of us like to buy bridles and other shiny stuff in tack shops, of course our horse doesn't care, but we like it!


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## burtie (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
  For me parelli falls in to the same category as a lot of other training aids......,..If you are experienced enough to use it properly without risk to horse then you probably dont need it  


[/ QUOTE ] 

That is so true, I only know one person who is Parelli trained that I respect as a trainer and  you wouldn't even know it as she is basically a very good horsewoman first and foremost who happens to have done the training.


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## VirginiaWylaars (18 May 2007)

Pat and Linda Parelli have dedicated their lives to the horse.  Their way of improving horses lives is to better educate people.  By teaching people how to read horses and to understand what motivates horses, and then the appropriate stratagies to use, a clearer communication and a partnership can be acheived.  I am very thankful to Pat and Linda for the horse knowledge they have shared with me and also for the life skills which are embroilled in their teachings.  I am a better person for it.


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## laura77 (18 May 2007)

Pat Parelli is not claiming to have invented anything new.  The man himself says it is so old it is new again.  What he and his wife Linda have done is put together a programme that anyone can follow to learn how to be a better horseman.

I have been studying Parelli for several years and I can tell you now that it is not a cult.  The majority of people that I have met are the most accepting and understanding people I have ever met in the horse world.  I know there are those Parelli students out there that get a little carried away, but that is just because like many of the people who do not follow Parelli, they are just passionate about their horses.

Some people do not want or need the Parelli programme and that is fine.  I hope that their views will not stop the people who would like to find out more or maybe give it a try.  I am now studying Level 3 and all I can say is that in my experience it has been an amazing journey and I have learnt so much not only about the horses in my life but also about myself.


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## Weezy (18 May 2007)

Could someone outline what the stages actually mean to them please.


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## PaddyMonty (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
What he and his wife Linda have done is put together a programme that anyone can follow to learn how to be a better horseman. 

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the element that bothers me.

I wonder what the reaction of parelli followers would be if someone suggest that they were going to learn to ride purely from books and DVD's
Fine if its a mechanical horse that always responds as expected.  Real horses are somewhat different.


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## Kate_13 (18 May 2007)

Agreed with 4faulter. 

Humans don't just learn from books and DVD's, these are just materials that aid learning. 

I work in medicine, could you imagine if I had just trained by reading and watching DVD's then decided to cannulate a person and give drugs willy nilly! Or decided that just because I have seen the DVD that I can perform a cardiac arrest resusitation! 

Everything has to be done wih experienced people at hand.

Just a contoversial thought, has anyone wondered that the people who have turned to parelli were having problems with their horse becasue they wern't experienced enough or didn't have enough experiened people around them?


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## laura77 (18 May 2007)

I appreciate that that would be a concern but the programme really does not work like that.  
There is alot of support available to students.  Yes there are the home study packs with books and Dvds but there are also instructors all around the world who run clinics and lessons to ensure people are on the right track.  You can also contact instructors by phone or e-mail and can send videos etc if you are having any particular challenges and no one can get to you immediately.  You also have access to mountains of on-line support through the savvy club.
Students are encouraged to start with their easiest horse first whilst they are learning themselves.  Ofcourse this is not always possible and this is where the instructors are invaluable for guiding people through and keeping both the horses and the people safe while they are learning.


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## Kate_13 (18 May 2007)

So in the middle of a resus I can call the Chief Ambulance officer and ask him what to do?????

I am sorry, but this doesn't ring true. How can you distance learn with online help how to train a horse????

Could you imagine the controversy if you could learn to back a horse from a DVD and online help????


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## PaddyMonty (18 May 2007)

All very good in theory but reality is majority of people just buy the packs.


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## Folara (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Fact: TB's all over the world are backed and raceing at the age of 2 years, as are quarter horses so age is irrelivant for certain breeds as they develop quicker...although I do agree to make a race of backing is unfair and pat isn't exactly light. We all make bad desisions in life, only some have a perminant record of them be a little forgiving. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]


Perhaps I should point you in the direction of Dr. Deb Bennetts work as to why 2 year olds should not be backed.  Makes interesting reading and I am sure once more people understand the physiology of the horse they to would hesitate.  I would have thought such well educated and informed people as the Parellis would have known this too ...... sadly it appears I was wrong!!

"Just a few points from that article are summarized here: 

No horse, of any breed or bloodline, is mature before the age of 5 ½.

The earliest-maturing horses are small, scrubby, range-bred mares.
Male horses tend to lag about 6 months behind female herd members kept under the same circumstances. Good feeding tends to prolong growth and delay maturity.

No horse is skeletally mature at age 2.


There are both advantages and disadvantages of starting horses at age 2 or earlier. Unless there is a compelling economic reason, I advise waiting to start young horses undersaddle until they are 4.

There is more than one "growth plate". 
The one growth plate that most people know about is the one "at the knee" (actually, at the bottom of the radius-ulna bone just above the knee). Every bone in the skeleton outside the skull contains at least one growth plate. Each limb bone has one at the top, one at the bottom, and may have others (on prongs or projections such as the tip of the elbow or the third trochanter of the femur).

Maturation follows a definite pattern.
Individual portions of the skeleton become mature when the growth plate nearest them fuses to the bone shaft. There is a schedule for this over the horse's body: the lower down in the limbs, the earlier in life the growth plates fuse.

The last parts of the skeleton to become mature are the vertebrae and teeth. 
The last teeth erupt in a male horse at age 5 ½ to 6. The last vertebral growth plates also fuse at about this age, or later.

The slowest-maturing horses are tall, long-necked individuals.
Largeness itself tends to delay maturity, and long-necked horses tend to have the caudal cervical plates fuse quite late, even up to age 8. 
Early riding can damage either the young horse's limbs or its back, although gross damage is rare. Subtle damage, which may only show up on X-ray, or which may show up even years later, is very common. 
Nevertheless, the main reason to avoid riding the 2 year old or younger horse is not to preserve its bones but to preserve its posture: young horses readily learn to clamp their back muscles to "defend" against the rider's weight, whereas 4 year olds and up rarely feel an instinctive need to do this. Not having learned to clamp their backs, these horses produce roundness and collection with much greater ease. 

Owners can and should learn how to handle young horses, and can teach them many things which build skills, muscle, and postural habits good for riding. Such a program starts with the foal's first lessons in haltering, leading, and having its feet handled."   

Referenced from:  http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/hrs3835


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## laura77 (18 May 2007)

This is where things are different.  The study packs are not about training horses they are a people training programme to help you learn to read the horse and know where to be, when to be there and what to do when you get there.

As far as backing or starting a horse with on-line or Dvd help, unfortunately at the moment horses are started all over the world by people who have very little or no experience and many people and horses get hurt.  If Parelli disappered tomorrow this would still continue.  To be able to start a horse using Parelli methods you should first complete Level 3 of the programme and you would then spend several months training with Pat himself to ensure you have the competence and skills necessary.  There is nothing in the home study packs to teach people how to start horses and it is actively discouraged at this level.


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## chris_gratton (18 May 2007)

As a 'middle aged woman who was too afraid to ride' I thought you might like to hear from me. In actual fact middle aged women represent a good proportion of horse owners, I can't remember the exact figure but I think we are in the majority. Although I rode a lot as a teenager and had my own horses I found that when I returned to horse-ownership aged 40+ I had in fact forgotten many of the things that used to come naturally to me. I bought a completely unsuitable horse as many of us do, became too afraid to ride and was then stuck (I'm sure many of you will have seen this pattern!). It was at that point that I discovered Parelli and it was a huge relief because the Parelli programme said 'don't ride until you feel ready and you have these basic ground skills in place', and I can't tell you how liberating that felt to as scared, middle aged lady who only wanted the best for her distant, distrustful and 'sick of humans' horse.

Like everything else Parelli can be done badly and it is easy to get stuck in level 1 and never progress past boring your horse to death (but I think there are many worse things for horses than that!) and sadly you do see this, however I don't think this is peculiar to Parelli, you see it in traditional riding/training too.

In response to the comments on expensive equipment, over the last 4 years I have bought 2 halters, (one large, one pony) a short and long rope and a carrot stick and string) I use the short rope and halter every day, nothing needs replacing. I think I probably paid around £120 for all of it. I also bought 3 packs that came to about £400. That's in 4 years. I don't think that's too expensive, a lot less than many people pay for lessons, tack etc. And it is a choice, no-one forces you to buy the kit, just like no-one forces you to have expensive lessons with a (for example) top show jumping instructor or buy the best kind of saddle you can find, again it is a choice.

Personally I'm really glad I discovered Parelli, it awakened a whole lot of curiosity in me and the research I've done because of that has made me aware of methods, trainers and horsemen all over the world that I didn't know existed. You do get the odd Parelli evangalist but please try to be kind and forgive them! Love for the horse is what we all have in common, whatever method or discipline we choose to be most interested in.

For those who feel affronted that there is a sudden rush to this board to defend Parelli, I think as one poster has already said we tend to frequent other boards usally but the link to this forum was in horse and hound so you will definitely get a numer of us here out of sheer curiosity.

Some of you see Parelli as a 'cult' or 'marketing machine' (if you look closely you will see it is really neither) but it is actually a sound foundation for building a relationship between horse and human. Most of us who follow Parelli are simply doing the very best we can to be the best we can for our horses. I am sure that people who frequent this board and follow other methods and disciplines feel they are doing the same.

Surely it is best to look for the common ground rather than the differences between us?

Best wishes to all of you whatever method or discipline you choose to follow.
Chris G &amp; Jazz


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## PaddyMonty (18 May 2007)

and has it created a happy 'Ridden' relationship?


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## Kate_13 (18 May 2007)

So I presume that you only ride in a halter and wave an orange stick

You are so happy with your new found enlightenment to Parelli that you go hacking or jumping bareback with just a halter? 

You haven't bought a saddle, bridle, rugs or jods then?


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## PaddyMonty (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
and has it created a happy 'Ridden' relationship? 

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a genuine question.  I asked simply because in my experience the ridden relationship rarely happens so wondered if it worked for you?


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## spaniel (18 May 2007)

QR.

Just wanted to say - even though Im not particularly a fan of Parelli how nice it is to see that opposing views can be aired without resorting to the slagging that some other threads have decended into in the past.

Very refreshing.


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## laura77 (18 May 2007)

I cannot answer for Chris but for me the ridden relationship has changed dramatically.
The biggest change was in her confidence, before I was unable to hack out alone due to napping, despite trying many other methods and a lot of advice from various instructors (I was not completely inexperienced myself, I have my BHS stage 3 and have owned horses for 20 plus years and I wasn't afraid).
I have also found that everything is softer and she is more responsive.  There is less resistence to higher level elements such as lead changes etc as we have built up a greater understanding and have a more solid base of communication.
I am not saying that this could not have been achieved any other way, I am just saying that for me and my horse Parelli is the route I have taken.


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## RuthR (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Could someone outline what the stages actually mean to them please. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly. Level 1 is where you start and its ALL about safety - it gives you the basis of Horse psychology and the beginning of ground skills so that you can start to build up a language with the horse that he understands.  This language is based on the dominance games that horses play with each other.  So by playing the games you can prove to your horse that you know what you're doing and through that you earn your horse's trust and respect.  It then takes you onto the early stages of ridden work including saddling up and mounting safely.  For level 1 ridden skills you only need to walk and trot and bend your horse safely to a stop.

Level 2 is about developing harmony and fun with your horse - you further your understanding of horse psychology and your ability to read the horse's body language.  You advance your ground work skills (both on line and at liberty) and also advance your ridden work to include canter and also do sideways and back-ups.

Level 3 is about refinement - you refine your skills that you have learnt through the previous level.   The on-line work will now include things like 3 foot jumps, cantering/troting your horse into a trailer, doing longline driving etc and the liberty work will include circling (different to longing) and asking for transitions (up and down) then asking for a change of direction at canter to include flying lead changes etc.  The ridden work does include riding bareback and bridle-less but also included ridding with a bridle and saddle to show things like canter to back-up, simple lead changes through walk, canter travers, half pass showing a flying lead change and then half pass the other way with another flying lead change.

I know I seem to have made more of level 3 than the previous levels - the previous level are an important pre-requisite to level 3.  they are the foundation that you build upon.  But I hope that by showing where you can get to by level 3 you might see that there is a point to this.  As mentioned before I want to do dressage - how easy will I be to train if I can already do these moves with lightness from my horse?  Then all a dressage trainer will need to do is shape us.

That is a brief overview of the levels - if you really want to know more (I'm going to be contraversial here  
	
	
		
		
	


	




) try  http://www.parelli.com/info_page.php?pag...am&amp;t=OnePic  for more information.  

Some people have critised the fact that it is home study and that people will get themselves into trouble.  Well, as I said I was getting weekly lessons and had lots of knowledgeable people around me and yet I was in deep trouble with my horse.  Only when I started Parelli did I make any sort of improvement.  I have been on courses with instructors for more 'intensive learning' and hands on help but the packs are really, really well thought out and they do cover for lots of eventuallities.  The Parelli program really is a people teaching program first and formost.  We are the issue...not the horses - its simply a happy by product that as a result of our learning the horses want to offer to perform the tasks that I list above.  The other thing that the Parelli system offers is empowerment - you don't need someone standing over you telling you what to do because your horse will give you all the feedback you need to know and by going through the program you will learn what he is trying to tell you.


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## Lynne21 (18 May 2007)

I think it's like every other discipline / thought / aspect of being  around and working with horses - take a little bit of each and combine them and figure out what works for you and your horse.  Yes - it is common sense, but how many of us have said "oh, of course!" when something that we now take to be just 'common sense' was first pointed out to us at whatever age?

I do think that the higher levels of the Parelli are really a bit 'circus trickery' but the lower levels do help in every day situations.  I have 20 years experience with horses and have never had many problems due to common sense and a build up of trust, until recently with a bolshy but not nasty youngster.  I was lucky to be visited by a friend of a friend from Germany who is big into Parelli and she showed me how to calm my youngster in hand and get her to respect my space when being led, I now have fewer problems with her and a mutual respect.  She is now a nice person to have around most of the time and when she is a pig, I know what to attempt with her.  

To completely dismiss it all out of hand, I think, is a bit egotistic, yes it is expensive stuff but each to their own.  Just to make the point that, no, as a whole it does nothing for me but I will always be grateful for the 'common sense' aspect that I was shown that enabled me to keep my lovely filly and not have to sell her cos she was a handful!


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## Kate_13 (18 May 2007)

Nobody is saying that parelli is wrong, just that learning long distance from books e.t.c. can lead to disaster!

I oppose the fact that many Parelli people have said that due to their new enlightement they have found no need to buy expensive tack.

My question is well, how do you ride out, jump, dressage e.t.c Surely you need to buy a saddle, bridle, jods, hat, rugs e.t.c

Or do you guys just play your games in the field and don't ride any disciplines?

And many people have only gone into the groundwork side of things rather than ridden work. 

What also got my goat was that people are saying that without parelli, people who don't use this 'technique!' don't have a good bond or communication with their horse. 

I would be interested to know why people have turned to parelli. Is it because people don't know how to achieve a bond with their horse without the aid of £400 + of parelli equipment?


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## laura77 (18 May 2007)

Please do not blame the majority for what the minority are saying.  
I have a saddle and bridle and yes I occasionally buy jods, rugs and a hat etc.  I think this is just being taken to literally.  I am not sure exactly where the difference is but I can tell you that I spend a lot less money now than before I started Parelli.
The Parelli's cannot control what their students say anymore than the BHS can control theirs but I do know that both Pat and Linda are continually open to new "techniques" and training and the programme is constantly being developed and changing.
It is simply people's opinion when they say that it is the only way and everyone should do it.  Parelli is not for everyone and nowhere is it said that it should be.  People should just be able to have a choice.
I turned to Parelli and most importantly have stayed with Parelli because of what it has taught me, because of the look I get on my horses face when she sees me, and because of the friends and support I have found on the way.
I will say again that I know this is not the only way and it is not for everybody but it is the route I have chosen.


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## Weezy (18 May 2007)

Thanks again Ruth!  So if someone has a horse that they actually have no probs with, respects their space, works harmoniously with their owner, is happy to be ridden and the rest, can Parelli benefit it?  I can understand why people turn to these types of learning when they have a problem, but for someone such as myself and my horse, I struggle to understand how it can improve our relationship.  She is a mare, she gets SLIGHTLY stressed if other horses are turned out and she is left in (when she is in season as she loves her BFs!), that is her only fault and I cannot think Parelli would help that, as it is hormone based!

Also, and this does interest me a lot - how does a novice owner know when to move on - I can imagine a lot of people may get bored with a step if their horse isn't playing ball and skip it and move on to the next level...


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## Kate_13 (18 May 2007)

Thanks Laura, you argument has been the most balanced with regard to how you use it. Thanks for your post. 

I am glad it has worked for you.


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## RuthR (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is saying that parelli is wrong, just that learning long distance from books e.t.c. can lead to disaster!

I oppose the fact that many Parelli people have said that due to their new enlightement they have found no need to buy expensive tack.

My question is well, how do you ride out, jump, dressage e.t.c Surely you need to buy a saddle, bridle, jods, hat, rugs e.t.c

Or do you guys just play your games in the field and don't ride any disciplines?

And many people have only gone into the groundwork side of things rather than ridden work. 

What also got my goat was that people are saying that without parelli, people who don't use this 'technique!' don't have a good bond or communication with their horse. 

I would be interested to know why people have turned to parelli. Is it because people don't know how to achieve a bond with their horse without the aid of £400 + of parelli equipment? 

[/ QUOTE ]

i will try to answer some of your points but this is my experience so I hope you will be respectful of that.

I bought my horse and he came with a saddle - yes I did end up buying a new saddle but that was simply because his old saddle no-longer fitted him.  I would have had to that whether I was a Parelli student or not.  I have also had to buy new rugs but thats because I had had the old ones for nearly 7 years and the waterproffing had well and truely gone on them so had to be replaced.

I have, for the moment, withdrawn from competing.  I'm a studetn at uni and really didn't have the time anyway.  I also found that I was more successful if I just stuck to the program.  I'm taking the time it takes to get a really good foundation with my horse now so that if I go back to dressage I won't have to waste time going back over stuff time and time again as I was doing 'pre-parelli'.

I love doing the ground work stuff - its great fun and it's something that I had never been introduced to before.  But I also ride and have fun doing that to.  Perhaps the people you have seen are not yet confident to ride.  I went through a period of not riding because I was scared and realised I didn't need to ride if I was feeling that.  I want to enjoy riding - I can't enjoy it if I'm scared.  So I worked on the ground skills and challenged my horse more while on the ground where I felt safe and doing that gave me the confidence to ride again.

I also gave up on jumping when I bought my horse because I was too scared.  My horse had never been put over a jump before I got him.  Through Parelli I intorduced him to jumping on-line and he loves it.  Through challenging him on-line over jumps and getting him confident that way I have now started to also ride him over jumps.  Sure their only small jumps but what does that matter?  We are having fun and doing something that I had long given up on doing ever again.

I have never said that these results can't happen without Parelli - look back through my previous posts.  I have simply said that for me it has helped me more than anything else to get this relationship with my horse.  I look around at shows however and I don't very often see the type of relationship that I have with my horse in the other competitors.  I have learnt to read a horse's body language and it breaks my heart to see what those horses are feeling and to see that their riders are oblivious to it.  To me a horse that is mis-read as being bad when it is actually scared half to death is far more dangerous than me with my orange stick working at home with my horse.  Those 'bad' horses are often then forced to do the exact thing that is scaring them so they 'blow' up and things can go from bad to worse very quickly.

Finally, If you want to know why I got into Parelli again look back to my first post or you can e-mail me and I will tell you the ins and outs.

As I said at the beginning this is simply my view of things.


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## cheeryplatypus (18 May 2007)

i used parelli after having my confidence ruined by a totally unsuitable first horse. the replacement horse was very green and had possibly been whipped and overfaced in the past. and needed me to be confident for him, which i wasn't .  while i still ride in a snaffle and conventional saddle not halter, i find it much easier to read what my horse is feeling (which i know most people do quite naturally!), the ground work exercises help him understand what i mean in the saddle and he trusts and responds with much more confidence than a few months ago.  i wouldnt say i'm a parelli fanatic (have not used 'carrot stick'), but feel their techniques have a place together with common sense.  what i like is their attitude of asking horse to do things; not forcing or bullying them. while i understand it may not be for everyone it certainly helped my sensitive horse start to enjoy his work. (yes i did feel the DVDs were expensive but when you add up the cost of private lessons at home it's not that bad)


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## Kate_13 (18 May 2007)

Thanks Ruth, like Laura you have given a balanced answer.

What got our backs up (certainly mine) was the whole approach that parelli fans took. No one until now gave a balanced answer, it seemed like they were all saying how wonderful parelli is and damn to all those who didn't use it. 

Good luck with your jumping. I am not a parelli follower (clearly) but have done the same with my boy. He never jumped but I got him used to it on the lunge and he is now quite happy jumping. Again like you only small, but yes we all have to start somewhere.


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## Foxglove (18 May 2007)

Having only just come back to this thread, i didn't feel i could add anymore that what has already been said by Wheezy, Teira etc but many Parelli followers just do not seem to realise that what works for one horse does not work for another (in fact this is obviously the case for everything).

With regard to standing still when being mounted, every horse needs to be taught at some time, this usually involves patience and repetition, nothing to do with a higher understanding. I will give an example. Every horse i have had, i have taught to stand by a gate so i can get on, i will ask it to step sideways and may tap its quarters with the schooling whip so it moves towards me. At no time is any pain inflicted. As long as you are patient they will learn. I appreciate that this is probably not the common of methods LOL but it works for me and my horses and they are certainly happy.

I would also like to comment on the poster who mentioned approach and retreat. This should be used with great caution. In my younger, more impressionable days i believed NH (must emphasise they were not parelli) was going to work wonders with my oppoinated, difficult arab, who had been well handled, not allowed to bite, was perfect to tie up, loaded but could be incrediably difficult. He was there 2 weeks (to be broken) and i was told he needed to express himself, discover what his 'safety zones' were and not be forced to step outside them. He did not need to be punished for biting as that was him relieving tension. What i ended up with after 2 weeks was a horse who had learnt if he didn't want to do something he didn't have to, he would automatically spin around and his biting was worse than it ever had been. They hadn't even long reined him at that point. I took him back and they offerd to come to my yard to help me until i decided just to get on him. Funnily this didn't go down well, I had gone against the grain so to speak LOL. He was perfect to get on but decided he didn't want to do anything. I ended up having him finished by a showjumper who claimed he was the most difficult, oppoinated horse he had ever had but he got him going just by working him hard. If he didn't do it the first time he was justed worked harder. No pain, just work. I woud love to say it all worked out well, he was supposed to be the horse of a lifetime, the one that was going to be a top 100 miler (i was seriously into endurance then) but he jacked it. Hit a wall and wouldn't go any further forwards, but would happily retrace the last 30 miles but would refuse point blank to go the last 100 yards with the line and trailers in site. I am not saying this wouldn't have happened anyway, but i have no doubt in my mind that the NH went a good way in contributing to it. I can't believe i was that naive.

My mare however is the total opposite, would drop dead trying to please you and that has nothing to do with playing 'games'. She does it because she trusts me and i adore her.

So while i think it is all well and good if it works for your horse, i won't be joining you in celebrating this move.

ETS i still have my arab he is probably too difficult to sell and in the wrong hands would be labled dangerous but for all his attitude i love him and accept that he has a mental block. No amount of schooling or game playing will ever undo the damage inflicted by NH


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## RuthR (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks again Ruth!  So if someone has a horse that they actually have no probs with, respects their space, works harmoniously with their owner, is happy to be ridden and the rest, can Parelli benefit it?  I can understand why people turn to these types of learning when they have a problem, but for someone such as myself and my horse, I struggle to understand how it can improve our relationship.  She is a mare, she gets SLIGHTLY stressed if other horses are turned out and she is left in (when she is in season as she loves her BFs!), that is her only fault and I cannot think Parelli would help that, as it is hormone based!

Also, and this does interest me a lot - how does a novice owner know when to move on - I can imagine a lot of people may get bored with a step if their horse isn't playing ball and skip it and move on to the next level... 

[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience Parelli has worked with my difficult horse and my pony who I already had a wonderful relationship with.  They are both extremely different characters so its really interesting to see what leader I have to be for each of them.  I'm sure that you and your horse would benifit from Parelli - you would be amazed at what things it helps solve!  It might take some time but I'm sure you would see improvements in your mare's behaviour when stabled by herself.  My horse was extremly herd bound but now he's the first one to leave the herd when he hears me call and is happy to be in his stable by himself (he use to rear in the stable if left alone!)  The thing that made a difference...my horse saw me as a leader.

As for knowing when to move on - I have tried to skip ahead and quickly learnt that it doesn't work!  Nothing bad happened but I did damage my horse's confidence which took time to rebuild again.  I realised that I need to follow the steps and if I did that I would progress much faster.  

But also on the flip side if I stayed on something too long my horse would get bored so again I must read my horse and make a decision based on that.  If I read him as scared then I will take longer over something...If I read him as bored then I will use obstacles to challenge him and get him thinking.

My horse changes very quickly from confident to unconfident so its a real test of my savvy to read him right and do the right thing.  I have on occassions got it wrong but I very quickly realise I've done the wrong thing and try something else and that will normally sort the problem out.  I'm still only learning.  

If you would like to send me an e-mail with any more questions I happy to answer them.


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## Weezy (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
It might take some time but I'm sure you would see improvements in your mare's behaviour when stabled by herself.  My horse was extremly herd bound but now he's the first one to leave the herd when he hears me call and is happy to be in his stable by himself (he use to rear in the stable if left alone!)  The thing that made a difference...my horse saw me as a leader. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah no, she has her own field, next to the other horses, she always comes to call and is happy to be caught 1 min after being turned out.  If I am totally honest, I would not be very happy if she suddenly thought she didn't have to *miss* her companions, missing your friends cannot be a bad thing as it shows emotion... not really explaining myself very well!  She doesn't do anything BAD when left in, just calls.


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## cvb (18 May 2007)

An interesting and active conversation, with some strong feelings and opinions on all sides 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Is it distance learning in general people have concerns about ? Some distance learning packages are theory only - is it the practice element that concerns people ?

Actually I think this would really classify as "blended learning" in most cases as the courses or instructors back up the study packs.

I went to the Scottish Instructors Conference this week - Stephen Clarke - it cost me £35 for the day as a BHS member. The Parelli conference cost me £70 - also as a member. Same price per day. In both cases it is an international level person I am getting to see. 

Stephen C talked about limits, about softness, about acceptance. These are all things that crop up (maybe with different words) in both "mainstream" and Natural Horsemanship.

For any system of learning, I personally think it makes a difference what existing skills and competencies you take into it with you. My understanding and comprehension of what Stephen showed us on Monday is at a certain level - someone I talked to commented that the earlier sessions (Prelim, Novice) were easier for her to understand than the later ones (last one was working to GPrix). I could watch and understand at that higher level, but I sure wasn't going to go home and manage to do any of it ! (LOL)

My personal experience of BHS is that it has a tendency to focus, especially at the lower levels, on technical/mechanical skills. To a certain extent the lower levels of PNH do the same IMHO but from a different point of view. (I am not saying PNH lower levels are about technical riding skills - but that there is more focus on what* you do than *why* and the *why* gets worked on as your progress. Though I am basing this on the old version of the packs and haven't taken a good look at the revised programme yet).

In the same way that BHS offers various forms of assessment and certification, so does PNH. BHS accredits its own levels. So does PNH.

Like any learning programme, both BHS and PNH review, revise and update their programmes. 

If I want to do certain exams with BHS I really need to be getting good experience e.g. I took 3 months to do my BHSAI fulltime. Higher levels of PNH require similar commitment and focused study.

So in terms of their learning structure, not so different. if we condemn PNH for some of these things, are we happy to also condemn other systems with the same characteristics ?

I have personally found PNH a useful tool in my toolbox. Its not the only tool. Its not the perfect tool. But it is in there for me to use.


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## cvb (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Also, and this does interest me a lot - how does a novice owner know when to move on - I can imagine a lot of people may get bored with a step if their horse isn't playing ball and skip it and move on to the next level... 

[/ QUOTE ]

With every level pack there is an associated set of assessment tasks - you can self-assess to a degree. But to be confirmed as having passed a particular level you would need to be assessed by an external person. (In the same way as you are assessed for anything else you get "qualifed" in).

There is also a general view that if you need to move on, you should. If you are repeating the same things, it doesn't help you or the horse.


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## Lynne21 (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I have personally found PNH a useful tool in my toolbox. Its not the only tool. Its not the perfect tool. But it is in there for me to use. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep!  Nothing better than a well equipped tool box - you never know when a certain tool might help with the job and if it doesn't, try a different one but don't dismiss it out of hand.


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## PaddyMonty (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 Its not the only tool. Its not the perfect tool. But it is in there for me to use. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Now if all the followers took that approach I doubt there would be much antagonism towards Parelli.  Unfortuneately, it is often purported to be The 'only' and 'perfect' tool by many that I and I assume others have met.  It is this rigid stance thats gets the baby thrown out with the bath water.


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## chris_gratton (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
and has it created a happy 'Ridden' relationship? 

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi 4faulter
Yes, happily it resulted in my being able to confidently ride this mare, sadly she died 2 years ago. It took a long time but I did progress from shaking badly and getting on and then straight off to being able to canter happily, though I never got to the bareback stage! Now I have an 'easier' model, I still do Parelli with her because I enjoy it so much.
Chris G &amp; Jazz


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## chris_gratton (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I would be interested to know why people have turned to parelli. Is it because people don't know how to achieve a bond with their horse without the aid of £400 + of parelli equipment? 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there are lots of reasons why people become interested in Parelli. For many of us the simple answer is 'no, we didn't know how to create a bond with our horse'. For some people it is part of their nature and talent for some of us not so. We all have to choose a route to progress, some of us choose Parelli others choose other methods. Most will have their merits i think.


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## Shilasdair (18 May 2007)

All hail Great Parellis, sole defenders of equine welfare.
I too watched a Parelli demonstration and it made me want to cry.....
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





PS RCAWilson  - are you related to the Parellis/work for them?


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## cvb (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Just a contoversial thought, has anyone wondered that the people who have turned to parelli were having problems with their horse becasue they wern't experienced enough or didn't have enough experiened people around them? 

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of the people I have met who have turned to PNH have done so because they have tried everything else and it has not worked. I think this explains a lot of the passion and zeal you see from them - because it really has got them out of a hole.

And in most cases they have already tried to find good people to help them and it has not worked.

I personally did not go to PNH for this reason, and have not had that kind of "Road to Damascus" conversion. I have curiosity. I take that curiosity along to demos and lectures for all sorts of people. I had a horse on loan while its normal rider had her back pinned. They had experienced handling problems and had started natural horsemanship with her, so for consistency sake I handled her the same way (she went back to them when the rider was unpinned).

So I had seen PNH, and I had tried a bit of it.

Yes it seems like commonsense to me. A lecturer once said to me "Commonsense is the obvious *once it has been pointed out*". Its not obvious until it is (pointed out).

But approaches like PNH also give a framework and structure to that commonsense. Does it go against anything I had learnt before ? No. Have I taken other teaching into account in my* use and application of it ? Yes.

I do want to raise a slightly different point while I am here tho'. I was thinking about the whole "Stoneleigh" issue. In general I would want the equestrain world to be inclusive - our voices together are stronger. But Stoneleigh is representative of *disciplines* not of individuals or brands within a discipline.

So how does PNH and what they are doing at Stoneleigh fit within that ? Are they simply the *first* natural horsemanship area to be represented - and the facilities will happily include other individuals, brands ?

e.g. if Charlotte Dennis, or Leslie Desmond, or Mark Rashid, or John or Josh Lyons, or any of those folk want to come to the UK - can they also make use of that base as part of "Natural Horsemanship in the UK" ?? r even the people already here (Intelligent Horsemanship for example).

I don't know the answer to that - but I think it is an important precedent being set and we ought to know one way or the other !


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## wattsy (18 May 2007)

I think he is a good horseman, and an even better businessman! Apparently he became much more 'savvy' when he met his wife - behind every good man and all that...
Be interested to know if 'Parelli' is still a franchise in this country, which would explain why it's not possible to get on to the US Parelli site by link..
I've seen him once, and undoubtably he is a good horseman, but have to say I found the whole thing almost religous in it's fervour...
Also saw a display at Equus, docklands, and v. impressed when a lady in a wheelchair loaded 2 fresians in a trailer, backwards, just by voice and body cues. Awesome!


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## akn102 (18 May 2007)

Very upset for many of the writers here that they clearly have not ever actually found out what Parelli is about.  I have completed BHS exams, Pony Club exams and Parelli Level's exams so speak with knowledge from 'both sides of the fence'.   *Parell is not about sticks, tricks and not riding because you're scared etc etc* ,  Having done Parelli Level 1 I then went to do BHS professional exams and gave up exasperated that they have practically nothing to do with horses more with human safety and the mechanics of how to sit on , feed, groom and bandage said horse.  

*PARELLI IS ABOUT*  - teaching humans indepth horse psychology so they are safe on the ground and in the saddle.  If Parelli really is over priced common sense how come I didn't find this "common sense" out from any BHS instructor (and I've tried some very well qualified ones in my time).  Parelli is actually teaching things that no other organisation has been able to put into words.  UNDERSTANDING and LEADERSHIP so your horse is no longer 'made' to do things but actually works as a partner and 'with' you rather than 'for' you.  

Having tried both the 'normal' way, then natural/parelli, back to 'normal' and now I'm back to Parelli and will never be with horses any other way again.  I have yet to meet a 'normal' person able to create a piaffe or passage from their horse while on the ground with no rope/strings attached.  I've had many sceptics and critics borrow my parelli pack and join me in natural horsemanship through seeing how I deal with little 'problems' more naturally and with my horses confidence and dignity intact.  I'm only in the very lowest levels of the parelli programme and even my basics can have that much impact.   I was appalling to my old pony until I discovered Parelli - I just didn't realise it. 

My final word on this - someone one here says their instructor said they felt 'sorry' for the horse who was doing Parelli.  I feel sorry for the 'normal' horse controlled by flash nosebands, draw reins, martingales, bits and all manner of gizmos and gadgets.  In that is 'horsemanship' you can keep it.  

To the people out there that sneer and joke at something they clearly don't know much/anything about I'd say you're probably scared of change (as I was) and you're probably under a lot of peer pressure to stay 'normal' - I've been there myself.  It's very hard to break ranks and do something different.  It's also very hard to look at your horses with growing realisation that you don't actually know what makes them tick.


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## akn102 (18 May 2007)

In answer to your question, there is no parelli franchise in this country - Parelli USA run it direct and have an office here at Stoneleigh Park.  The webside is www.parelli.com


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## Toni (18 May 2007)

Not all people join up with Parelli because they have problem horses or fear issues - although many do as a last resort.  I have kept horses and ponies all my life.  The usual progression through Pony Club and its tests, riding lessons, competitions, etc.  
I read one of Pat's books and it made a lot of sense.  I was intrigued - lets try Level 1 and see what else he has to say.  At the time I had 2 equines - neither of them a "problem horse", but I wanted to learn more about them and how to communicate with them more effectively.  It wasn't until I started the programme that I realised how much better things between us could be.  My mare - dominant mare - was always nice natured, good to catch, hack out and hunt.  She suffered terribly from separation anxiety.  OK to hack out on her own - but left in the yard on her own and she just couldn't cope.  I accepted that was the way it was and worked around it.  To bridle, she would raise her head - no problem I could stand on the mounting block.  She would snarl when you put the saddle on - check the back, check the saddle - its just association from "another time" - no problem, she didn't bite just gave me a look and moved around - no problem, keep her tied up.  We can work around that.  Get the picture?  Not life threatening or dangerous, just the way it was.
The pony hated injections.  Well behaved, good with children grooming him, riding him but hated injections.  Oh well, only once a year - no problem.
Today, with no issues just following the course, understanding them better, listening to what they have to say, giving them leadership all these issues have gone.  My herd has extended - and a youngster with some pretty extreme problems has joined us.  The change in him has been incredible.  I am at the end of Level 2 and I will continue with Level 3.  My youngster will be backed by a Parelli professional and hopefully will be the horse he deserves to be and not the lost cause he once was.
Parelli is not the only way - its just one way.  Like all systems it can only be as good as the user, and of course things can be mis-interpreted.  But, if you use your common sense, listen to what is really being said and most importanly listen to your horse its amazing what can be achieved.  So, keep an open mind, find your own path, make your own journey but keep the good of the horse as your priority.


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## Weezy (18 May 2007)

Right then, is anyone willing to lend me their level 1 pack so I can have a proper read?


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## akn102 (18 May 2007)

Just reading someone saying that parelli followers don't seem to understand that what works for one horse won't work for another.  Couldn't agree more, as you get further into the Parelli packs/training whatever you want to call it, you learn in much more depth about horse personalities - that some horses are introveted some extroverted in how they exhibit their confidence/unconfidence and you adjust what you have learnt earlier to cater for the different behaviours/personalities.  This is what Parelli/natural is really all about - 'reading' the horse behaviour and adjusting your human behaviour to fit.  I think the biggest problem with Parelli is people don't get past the very basics of it before condemning it - it's not a horse training method at all, its a human training course - training humans how to be around horses!


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## magicmoose (18 May 2007)

'But Stoneleigh is representative of *disciplines* not of individuals or brands within a discipline.'

With due respect, Stoneleigh Park is basically a rural business park, not a shrine to equestrian disciplines. It has great facilities, so I can understand why Parelli would choose to be there. 

My personal feeling is that it would be a good thing for more horsy businesses/organisations to be based there, the more the merrier! Us regular horse owners can only benefit by everyone there sharing ideas and experience.

NH, Classical or BHS, we all love horses, don't we?


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## vicijp (18 May 2007)

Is a carrot stick similar to my length of blue plastic pipe?


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## cvb (18 May 2007)

Chiz

thats fine - I was just thinking about my reaction to it... I haven't been to Stoneleigh Deer Park so don't know the on-site set up and am happy to be informed of the reality of the situation 
	
	
		
		
	


	





and after all, if it creates more equestrian "traffic" (i mean in terms of people not vehicles !) - thats good for all isn't it ?


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## Sparklet (18 May 2007)

To be fair I think it is less about people sneering at Parelli but more irritated by the smug attitude of 'some' followers.  There have been four owners of carrot sticks at our yard and without exception all had on the ground handling difficulties in terms of a refusal to walk forward, problems loading and owners being literally towed across the yard.

However these same four people would present 'their way' as being the only way.  I have actually been accused for forcing my incredibly obedient mare into a lorry when she stolls up the ramp.  Bizarre.

Saying all that I have seen a demo at Burghley which did look pretty spectacular, however bore absolutely no resembalance to what I have seen being practised at home.

In fact the funniest thing I have ever seen was a mother/daughter combo fighting over the carrot stick while trying to load the daughters reluctant horse into a trailer.  Both thought they knew best - I know that feeling.


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## debradley (18 May 2007)

I think there are some very valid things to Parelli.  My horse had obviously been mistreated in some way with a schooling whip before I had her and if you even try to approach her with something like that on your person she's off, it just blows her mind and she panics.  She takes absolutely no offence at a carrot stick tho.  I know its just reconditioning, but it's reconditioned her to be much more amenable.  If it helps some people with their animals were's the harm?  And I've seen a lot of people who could do with some help understanding their animals!  But yes would have to say that pricing is very steep, but he is a business after all.


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## Pirate (18 May 2007)

My father, who is one of those old horsemen, tells me that from the time I could speak I would ask for a pony every night before falling asleep. As far back as I can remember horses have been my life. I have competed, taught and still currently work in the industry. I have always had people say to me that I was lucky that all my horses were good. LUCK? I dont think so. So why then did I decide at the age of 40 to take to Parelli, after all I was lucky with my horses, yes I could have been clumped in with the middle age group that dont ride theyre horses but I was still hunting, jumping and hacking out for 2 hours a day. 
Well I have a very curious and inquisitive mind, I saw a demo and wanted to know more and thats where it began. 5 years on I have graduated Level 2 of Pats program and have every intention of graduating Level 3 I have also studied at his ranch in Colorado. 
I didnt come here to preach or defend but for me personally the news that PNH will be there alongside BE, BD and BSJA is great.

Welcome to the UK Pat and Linda.


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## Weezy (18 May 2007)

Hi Sharon - did you stop riding your horses when you commenced Level 1?


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## Grahamp (18 May 2007)

I am a Parelli student and have been for 2 years now. I have a problem with Forums and that is there is no way a complete and clear communication can happen in the format available, so misunderstandings occur and tempers fray. 
So I am not going to try and explain what it is about Parelli that I find good, or argue with any of the points raised by other contributors but I do feel that many of the non Parelli contributors are very experienced and very good horse people. For me to try and explain or debate this subject with you is like a GCSE student discussing a subject with a college lecturer - we are not on the same page. 
Therefore I would strongly urge you to find a Parelli instructor who is at the same level as you in their horsemanship so you can communicate at the same level - I think there will be a presence at most major events this year. 
You may get a clearer picture of the real attitude of Parelli people, an understanding of their knowledge, tools and techniques, what time is involved in following the programme and how it can help your imagination when trying to achieve things with your horse. 
Please try and take that opportunity if you can.

Personally I welcome the presence of Parelli at Stoneleigh Park as I hope it will help improve communication between our traditional British horse world and the developments in horse training that have been occurring in the USA and other parts of the world for the past 40 years or so.
I am another Parelli stranger to this forum as I did not know it existed, but I will be back to read if not contribute often.


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## Pirate (18 May 2007)

Hi Weezy,

I didn't ride whilst in the early stages as it says to follow the program in sequential order and as you learn how to communicate with your horse on the ground first this is what I did and followed the instructions to the letter. However this was for a very short period of time and I officially passed L1 in 10 weeks. I believe some students do carry on riding out etc at the beginning but I figured if I was going to do it then I should follow the program.


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## danee (18 May 2007)

Actually, Pat is NOT going to be in Stoneleigh Park - that was a rumor.

I was an accomplished jumper with a decent dressage background before I ever heard of Parelli- but I never realized how little I knew.  I was an excellent rider, but a lousy horseman!!!

When you watch someone in Level 1 they are just trying to learn the basic techniques- they are learning the alphabet- they aren't reading yet!!!!  Level 1 is boring for the horse, but is neccasary until the human knows how to communicate with their horse.  
In Level 2 you start to read the horse and do the games for a reason- to improve the horse's confidence, trurt and respect.  A lot of the time we start doing more and more on the ground because if the horse percieves us as a predator and is having emotional issues, we can solve those more thoroughly and quickly through playing on the ground.  
But the time a person is in Level 3 their horse is now confident, relaxed and happy, willing, smart and respectful.  NOW the fun beggins!!!!  Now your horse wants to be with you, carries itself nicely, can be ridden with no tack at all- Alex and the black have nothing over my little mare and I!

What you need to remember is that Parelli Natural Horseamnship is about teaching people- it is NOT a horse training course.  If you see someone "doing PNH" and they are boring their horse, or trying the same techniques for each horse they play with, ect., it is because they are still in the learning process.  Yesterday I got frustrated because our counter canter isn't coming along like I think it should be.  I wa way too hard on my little horse, I worked on it too long and my attitude was terrible- That is NOT PNH's fault!!!  Not only is it my fault, but PNH teaches me how to deal with my attitude so hopefully things will go better today, and I'm sure they will.  A few years ago I had bad rides most of the time- now I only have a couple in a month and I'm riding four horses a day at least.  Opefull in a few years from now I'll only have 'bad rides' a few times a year- thanks to PNH!


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## Weezy (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, Pat is NOT going to be in Stoneleigh Park - that was a rumor.


[/ QUOTE ]

Afraid your info is incorrect, NOT H&amp;Hs!


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## danee (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
With regard to standing still when being mounted, every horse needs to be taught at some time, this usually involves patience and repetition, nothing to do with a higher understanding. I will give an example. Every horse i have had, i have taught to stand by a gate so i can get on, i will ask it to step sideways and may tap its quarters with the schooling whip so it moves towards me. At no time is any pain inflicted. As long as you are patient they will learn. I appreciate that this is probably not the common of methods LOL but it works for me and my horses and they are certainly happy.


[/ QUOTE ] 

Actually Pat teaches this in level 2!!!  So yes a lot of people do it now- well, tens of thousands of Parelli followers anyway!!!


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## Shilasdair (18 May 2007)

Blue plastic pipe!  Love it.  Perhaps you should develop a new school of horsemanship - sell lengths of pipe at extortionate prices.
Can I be your business manager????
S


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## Lyndaatkinson (18 May 2007)

Parelli has helped me build a deep wonderful relationship with my horses.  You should ask my horses what they think of Parelli.  They would all probably say she is much more interesting now, and we get to show people what we are really thinking.
Parelli is not over priced.  You need very little equipment, it is all super quality, and each piece of equipment is really a refined tool, not just a lead line, halter, etc.  Don't be fooled by the quick answers, you will be missing a wonderful opportunity for your horses.


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## Heidi07 (18 May 2007)

Middle aged women unable to ride their horses!! 

Does it really matter why we get into Parelli or Monty Roberts or any other form of horsemanship. Surely it is an individual choice. I don't sit around sneering at people who chose to ride the BHS way or the way they have been taught.

For me, I chose Parelli because having seen a demo six years ago, I thought wow! I want to have that kind of a relationship with my horses. For me it has been a slow process but it is one heck of good journey. Yes it is expensive but once you have the equipment, that is it, you have it. It is such good quality and mine has been dragged through mud, water etc and still washes up well. If you average out how much non- Parelli people spend on lessons each week, it really isn't any more expensive to do a few days here and there with a Parelli endorsed instructor. I have been fortunate to have been on two courses and for me they are a great boost for my confidence with my horse and our partnership.

I can only applaud Pat and Linda for everything they have done for horses and their humans and I sincerely believe that they put horses first and finances second. Yes they have established an incredibly successful business and surely we can't knock them for that. They don't actively go out there and persuade people to part with their money. 

At the end of the day, just like anyone wanting to have specialist lessons be it dressage, show jumping or whatever, it is about individual choices and I for one don't regret a single penny I have spent following the Parelli system. For me the journey has been and will continue to be about developing a relationship with my horses based on their psychology.


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## JoyfulSteph (18 May 2007)

I have to tell you that Parelli has really changed my life.  I am an optimist - but I'm also critical and (except for J.C.) I don't believe that any ONE THING is the "end all" answer.  That being said: I have had horses for 30+ years.  Did the horse camp thing every summer as a kid, showed my ponies and then took years of dressage as an adult.  In these last few "Parelli Years" I have found out that common sense and/or love doesn't necessarily apply, as "Horse Sense" is completely different than what our human nature is naturally set at.  My heart has Always been for my horses.....bla bla bla....

    My first few months as a Parelli Player was frustrating and confusing for both me and my horses.... I really didn't get it. Then I went to a few clinics, invested in the new DVD's and started learning; it's not what button to push, what stick to use or what pricey piece of equipment to have.. it's about how/what my horse(s) is thinking and how to interact on their level (relationship).  Yes it's been a slow process because of my life schedule - and I'm still so far from my goals..

     What would be totally awesome for me to hear is that I've been in a secluded bubble and that perhaps the rest of the world teaches "real" horsemanship "for the horse &amp; about the horse"  But everywhere around me I just see people catching their horses and making them do what they want without considering them..

    Today I am my heards leader, their friend, partner, provider, protector.  And somehow we always manage to have fun learning. They all (7) usually come running to me even when I have a halter &amp; saddle in hand.  My introverted horse that I have LOVED for years has learned (since Parelli) I am safe to open up to. He is now curious and silly!  A new mare of mine is SO sensitive and traumatized by her show career she couldn't even look at me for our first 3 months of ownership.  She seemed to dislike people and hated to be brushed or touched. She is now affectionate and will do anything for me IF I ask first...  She was never hateful - just emotional, and no one had probably ever spent undemanding quality time with her...

      In conclusion, in my quest for knowledge &amp; wisdom, I have found it best to reserve judgment without personal experience or facts.  (What good is an opinion if it's not backed up by anything?) For me, Parelli has sometimes been costly and a bit commercialized - but it has also been PRICELESS.  The more I do - the more I want.  

      Very few things are suited for everyone - However I definitely recommend attending a clinic or watching your friends dvd's. 

      When it comes to your horse how can any knowledge be a setback??

Much Joy and happiness to you and your horse!  JS.


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## Rambo (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Pat Parelli has opened a new office at Stoneleigh Park, which is also home to British Dressage, British Eventing and BSJA, and plans to run natural horsemanship courses on site, starting next year. 

H&amp;H are interested to hear your views on Parelli, and it's move into Stoneleigh, either by email to hhletters@ipcmedia.com or through this thread. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always preferred Dunlop myself


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## TheBlackMoth (18 May 2007)

God they are very wordy these parelli people aren't they.  I want to read it - I am even slightly interested but I cannot face big blocks of text with now breaks!


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## Rambo (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
God they are very wordy these parelli people aren't they.  I want to read it - I am even slightly interested but I cannot face big blocks of text with now breaks! 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Admin are trying to boost the site ratings..............have you seen how many *new* members there are contributing to this thread


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## TheBlackMoth (18 May 2007)

I think they've all run over from a Parelli forum - there must be a thread over there saying HHOers dissing Parelli - need support!!!


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## Shilasdair (18 May 2007)

Wasps in a jar...
S


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## Bess (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I think they've all run over from a Parelli forum - there must be a thread over there saying HHOers dissing Parelli - need support!!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]Yes you are right I've counted 23 new users on this thread who have registered either yesterday or today.  So the word must have gone out, rush over to HHO and defend the Parelli system. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





And why would I count them?  Its because .... I quote Nuala again
"God they are very wordy these parelli people aren't they. I want to read it - I am even slightly interested but I cannot face big blocks of text with no breaks!"


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## mystiandsunny (18 May 2007)

You only need to read one really - they all say roughly the same thing.  I was beginning to wonder if they were just one person with multiple e-mail addresses, registering as different users to make it look like lots of people love Parelli - cynical aren't I?!!

There are other, less expensive ways to learn basic horsemanship, but then again, some people only believe a thing will work if they have paid a lot for it.....


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## RCAWilson (18 May 2007)

Hi all,
I would just like to say this:
I am not in a Parelli 'cult', nor am I a Parelli 'evangelical',
I apologise to anyone who has felt my posts 'belittleing', I sincerely never ment this, I have only tried my hardest to defend two people who I love and respect,  in the begining of a rather one-sided onslought of 'Parelli bashing' or whatever you want to call it.
I do not think Parelli is 'the best thing since sliced bread',
how can I think this when for centuries and centuries, all over the world, there have been people who have 'done Parelli', and no I don't mean flailing carrot sticks around and jumping bareback and bridleless 'showing off'.
I do not think Parelli is 'the only and best way',
as I have mentioned before, there are people who I greatly admire who don't 'do' Parelli, from The Spanish Riding School of Vienna to the gauchos of South America, so this simply is just not the case.
My post with the large respose to the many 'Parelli is just common sense' comments was supposed to be examples of what can be achieved by using Parelli, I was'nt saying you can only do this if you do Parelli, again I was just trying to defend Pat and Linda. I am sorry that I was'nt clearer.
Nothing I have said has been meant as personal attacks on anyone, I realise this is how many have interpreted it, my posts have just been to try to explain and defend the Parelli program, and since this thread is about Parelli, this is why I have talked about Parelli and not other methods or 'styles' of horsemanship.
Please understand that I am not saying everyone who does'nt do Parelli is crap and can't have a good relationship with their horse.  Just because I say Parelli is great does'nt mean I say everyone else in the world is not.
I just wish more people would ask more questions and delve a little deeper into what Parelli actually is, and look more at the wonderful and strong relationships those who have practised Parelli have achieved with their horses, and there are so many examples, it does'nt take much to find them.

I am passionate about the horse, so anyone I come across who does what they can to understand more about them and help others to do so and thus make the horse a happier horse, whether they are the Parellis, or they practise Parelli Horse.man.ship, or if they don't do Parelli at all, then you have my respect and we are all on the same side, are we not?

And by the way, the reason I got into Parelli is not because I had any problems with my horse, my horse and I got on just fine, but I wanted something more, and I found people who helped me get that 'something more', and there is no one here or anywhere that can deny me that. If my horse could talk he would tell you this, if fact he tells me this every day.
Thanks.


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## Kate_13 (18 May 2007)

My horse says 'buy some more hay, you've run out'!

He also says, "if I wanted a carrot I would eat one, not be poked by one!"  
	
	
		
		
	


	






* sorry couldn't resist*


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## CASP3R (18 May 2007)

I am guessing the reason for so many new registrations ( yes, me as well ) is because this months e-news from Parelli has a link to horse and hound. Hope that clears up the mystery.


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## Lucy001 (18 May 2007)

Hi,

You are right to think that the Parelli fans are contacting each other and saying there's a forum for discussion but, in my case, it was a Parelli instructor saying not "Back-up is needed" but that people might be interested to hear about our experiences. 

So I'm sad to see so many negative coments - and some of them pretty rude. 

 I came on to say that, yes, I have found Parelli a great system but I did have quite a lot of experience before I started. I was injured, couldn't ride my horse &amp; was looking for something interesting to do. 

If you are a novice there is the potential to misinterpret the home study information &amp; create problems with your horse but the training packs have been revamped to try to avoid this.

Overall, I've spent about £500 on kit (ropes, halters, carrot sticks, bridle and the training materials). Like many, I thought it was really expensive initially so bought ropes, halters &amp; sticks from another source in America at about half the price and my first pack off Ebay.

I now wouldn't baulk at spending a bit more on the kit as I know how useful it is. I used to spend £30 a week on lessons and was always buying the latest bits &amp; bobs! 

By the way, you could use a lunge whip but the extra weight of the "carrot stick" is much better for the job. Normal lead/lunge ropes are not heavy or long enough.  

I have to agree there are some Parelli followers who are  closed to other methods and a bit OTT over Pat &amp; Linda but I think that they have probably had life-changing experiences with their horses.

I'm not averse to other methods, being trained the BHS way, and I often use clicker training to solve certain problems but I have to say that, in the long run, Parelli is the best training system I've come across for happy horses.


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## Tina33 (18 May 2007)

You can expect to hear from lots of Parelli supporters. They send a weekly e-news letter to thousands of supporters. The following was in this weeks edition. It included a link to this forum.

From the e-news:
An announcement of our evolving presence and commitment to the growth of natural horsemanship in the UKinterestingly it says that Pat will be teaching clinics at Stoneleigh himself....which is news to us!! How interestingbut it never hurts to put it out there! What is exciting, they are asking for YOUR opinion on WHAT you think about Parelli? So please post your views on www.horseandhound.co.uk/parelli

So far the poll is only two hours live and there are 136 postings....lets show how much WE CARE about increasing knowledge around horse human relationships! Thanks for sharing the journey with us all!


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## Bess (18 May 2007)

Thank you for explaining that to us.


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## chestnut cob (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
why not just use a stick then?
Theres plenty in my garden  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Have only just found this thread....am LMFAO at the quote above!!  Brilliant!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





It's just clever marketing aimed at novice and nervous riders.  I agree they're probably great horsemen but it's just common sense and most importantly, _experience_.....  there's no magic to it.


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## Weezy (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]


From the e-news:
An announcement of our evolving presence and commitment to the growth of natural horsemanship in the UKinterestingly it says that Pat will be teaching clinics at Stoneleigh himself....which is news to us!! How interestingbut it never hurts to put it out there! What is exciting, they are asking for YOUR opinion on WHAT you think about Parelli? So please post your views on www.horseandhound.co.uk/parelli

So far the poll is only two hours live and there are 136 postings....lets show how much WE CARE about increasing knowledge around horse human relationships! Thanks for sharing the journey with us all! 

[/ QUOTE ]

That has made me PMSL!  Obv there are no inside Parelli people contributing to that forum - seeing that Pat himself has quoted about being so happy to be based at Stoneleigh


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## Rainbo_horse (18 May 2007)

I am one of those 'middle aged women' mentioned in another post but am not frightened to ride my horse although he can be a handful! I have ridden since I was 6 and have a wealth of experience.

I was also a cynic for a long time regarding Parelli until I realised that it could help me to improve my horse's dressage. Since that time (about 4 years ago) I have found a wonderful way to spend hours of pleasure playing with horsea and to have them playing with me.

There are many top riders who now use the Parelli method - please don't knock it until you understand it. Unfortunately common sense is sadly uncommon, but Parelli is much more than this. You also learn a lot about yourself on the journey you start - but you must be prepared to accept the journey never ends.

Many of my horsey friends now understand much more just by seeing me work with horses using Parelli and are amazed at what can be achieved by learning to read horses and to approach everything using a language that they understand and without force (or whips).

Sure it's expensive - but it's worth it.


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## TheBlackMoth (18 May 2007)

I wasn't far wrong then!!!!!


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## Blizzard (18 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
It's all here! Everything you need to get started on your Parelli Natural Horsemanship Journey!

Our getting started kit includes the Level 1 Home Study Program; All your Basic kit items including, Savvy String, Carrot Stick, 12' Professional Line &amp; choice of Natural Halter PLUS a great Parelli bag to keep all your kit together! 

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF is a Savvy String? 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I might cash in too, anyone want my kit for £260?


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## Rachel_M (19 May 2007)

PMSL, what just £260?  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Haha.


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## magicmoose (19 May 2007)

Do HHO realise the irony of pinning this thread next to the one about defamatory posts?

OR is it a gentle reminder for us all to treat each others choices, whether an individal's horsemanship, or a company's pricing, with some respect.

I've read all of the posts here and both 'sides' could bear reminding!


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## Rachel_M (19 May 2007)

We have our right to say our opinions, hence the title name?


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## Tina33 (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


From the e-news:
An announcement of our evolving presence and commitment to the growth of natural horsemanship in the UKinterestingly it says that Pat will be teaching clinics at Stoneleigh himself....which is news to us!! How interestingbut it never hurts to put it out there! What is exciting, they are asking for YOUR opinion on WHAT you think about Parelli? So please post your views on www.horseandhound.co.uk/parelli

So far the poll is only two hours live and there are 136 postings....lets show how much WE CARE about increasing knowledge around horse human relationships! Thanks for sharing the journey with us all! 

[/ QUOTE ]

That has made me PMSL!  Obv there are no inside Parelli people contributing to that forum - seeing that Pat himself has quoted about being so happy to be based at Stoneleigh 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

That didn't come from a forum. It is from the official Parelli e-news that is sent weekly from their headquarters.  You can view it if you visit Parelli.com and click e-news.


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## Tina33 (19 May 2007)

This is a link to the site.
http://www.parelli.com/enews/enews.html


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## CowgirlACH (19 May 2007)

I have to admit, I actually own the Level 1 and 2 kits. A girl at my riding lessons introduced Parelli to me, and I thought it looked pretty good, so I bought it. However, since I do not own my own horse, I have never used any of the concepts on any horse before. In fact, after reading this forum I totally agree with some of the posters about it being a bit dangerous(I have heard of people being seriously injured using the one rein stop) and I think that some of the methods are extreme. I have always taken traditional riding lessons and never had a problem with them. I also agree that Parelli can be expensive, although it is much cheaper here in the United States.
   I understand that most of you ride English, but I ride western and was greatly offended when someone stated that western riders ride with a chair set. I have never ridden in a chair seat nor do I plan to.


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## Skhosu (19 May 2007)

I still haven't got a picture of a happy, alert horse doing parelli?


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## DebbieJ (19 May 2007)

There is NOTHING like it, not even close.  Pat and Linda are the only people driven by their love and passion for horses who have enough guts to put horse/human training into a logical step by step program that works WITHOUT FAIL if you follow it to the letter.  The only people who fail at this program are those who don't purchase it, those who purchase it but skip steps, <font color="red">  </font>  and those who refuse to take a good look at themselves and are unwilling to change.  The Parelli's have gotten to the horses' hearts; it's getting to the humans' hearts that's the tough part.  Horse training is a piece of cake once you train the human and that's what Parelli is all about.  Although I don't know Pat and Linda personally, they saved my life and the life of the horse that got me into their program after 40+ years of traditional riding.


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## DebbieJ (19 May 2007)

How sad that you have not been able to experience happy horses.  Someone must be doing something wrong.  My own horses literally stand and the fence and stare at the house just waiting for one of us to come out.  They get excited to see me and run to me always.  They will even stop to say hi when coming in for their dinner because I'm momentarily more important than food.  How awesome is that!  On the contrary... just attend a few horse shows, or just take a stroll through your average boarding barn if you want to see sad horses with assorted displaced behaviors.


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## Gills (19 May 2007)

What is becoming obvious from this forum is the massive support that Parelli has in this country.  Every time I start to write my post, another Parelli student has written something similar and I have to start again with another account of the fantastic time I have had since starting Parelli.

Emotional fitness (handling situations without getting angry or upset) is something Parelli promotes and helps with as it is so important in every day life, but especially around horses.  The calm, passively persistent way the Parelli students have handled themselves on this forum is typical and a credit to Parelli and themselves.

After 30 something years of riding, I cant believe how much I have learned from Parelli about horse behaviour.  Subtle, yet ground-breaking!  Important attitudes I have gained in myself have been accepting a lot and expecting a little and putting principles before goals.  I could not believe how difficult it was for me to REALLY achieve these changes in attitude.  I am also amazed at the profound difference it made to my relationship with my horse in general handling, competition, out hacking etc.  This is typical Parelli, on the surface it may look common sense, but only by studying the programme in depth do you truly make changes and realise the impact it can have.

There are many roads to Rome and I dont think any programme is the be all and end all.  But Parelli comes very close and I am so glad I chose to learn from this programme.  I am really looking forward to the opportunities that will arise from having the Parelli office at Stoneleigh.


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## pennypony (19 May 2007)

Parelli is an amazing opportunity to make your horse happy. Parelli is about having a friendship with your horse. Not bullying it to do what you want it to do. Your probably only arguing that you think its rubbish because you have never even tried it. I for one think parelli rocks! Oh and if your a BHS instructor, your only saying its stupid cause you want to save your job.


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## pennypony (19 May 2007)

I have had my pony, Penny for four years. The first 3 and a half Penny never put her ears forward. It was like she had no soul. But since i have started parelli, Penny is more happy. She greets me when i enter the field. When i did BHS (because penny is a dartmoor x new forest. Very Strong) i had to ride in a kimberwick. Now i can just ride in a string halter. Parelli has given me confidence with horses and has helped Penny enjoy doing stuff with me. I am very grateful!


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## Folara (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Parelli is an amazing opportunity to make your horse happy. Parelli is about having a friendship with your horse. Not bullying it to do what you want it to do. Your probably only arguing that you think its rubbish because you have never even tried it. I for one think parelli rocks! Oh and if your a BHS instructor, your only saying its stupid cause you want to save your job. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh PLEEEEEEASE...

My horse is perfectly happy and I have NEVER bullied him to do anything.   I doubt VERY much that BHS instructors feel threatened in ANY way by Parelli.

I like to think I follow common sense and the more Classical approach to horsemanship, having learnt a lot from Heather Moffetts principles.  I dont need some ridiculously over-priced set of toys to know good horse husbandry and neither do many many other people.

Personally after seeing the In a Whisper DVD I would say the Parellis need to go away and practice what they preach.

Sheeesh!!!!!!!!


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## pennypony (19 May 2007)

Blah Blah Blah. ou don't know what you are talking about! You all just don't understand about parelli do you. You DON'T give it a chance. BHS is RUBBISH! I couldn't even control my pony when i did BHS. And guess what, I can control my pony now that iv started parelli. If you are a BHS instructor, you are probably only saying those things about parelli as your scared of losing your jobs. Do you know what BHS stands for? 

Big Horrible and Stupid. Thats my motto!


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## Folara (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Blah Blah Blah. ou don't know what you are talking about! You all just don't understand about parelli do you. You DON'T give it a chance. BHS is RUBBISH! I couldn't even control my pony when i did BHS. And guess what, I can control my pony now that iv started parelli. If you are a BHS instructor, you are probably only saying those things about parelli as your scared of losing your jobs. Do you know what BHS stands for? 

Big Horrible and Stupid. Thats my motto! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.... and you wonder WHY people snub Parelli?  You are certainly not a very good ambassador for it are you?   Have you seen the In a Whisper DVD?


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## pennypony (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Exactly - Prancing around bareback is really showing off 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Your just jealous! At least WE listen to horses. Oh and if you don't listen to the horse it will start playing up as they will hate you and don't want to be with you!


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## Evil_Cookie (19 May 2007)

I'm not going to comment, would just like to say how disapointed I am at HHO admin starting this thread, arguments usually ensue when this subject or others like barefoot are brought up. If you wanted some idea of the forum goers opinions on the subject you could have easily found 50 old threads. Why restart the argument?
Its one of those subjects where nobody is wrong, both sides have valid points, but at the end of the day Parelli is a training method, just like BHS and EE so it's down to the individual owner/rider to choose what works best for them.


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## karenx999 (19 May 2007)

I am quite amazed by the comments from people a about Parelli, its quite clear alot of you are unsure what Parelli is about. I have studied the Parelli methods, along with reading Ray Hunt, Tom Dorrance, Mark Rashid, Ken Faulkner and any other natural horseman type books, video etc. I seen them all at their clinics and they all have something to offer. If your mind is OPEN and you listen. I have seen Carl Hester teach and ride and believe he is what I would call a Natural Horseman, he takes what the horse offers him and helps to mold it, softly and with communication.

Most peoples first misconception is Parelli is a training programme for horses. 1st mistake, it is NOT, it is a training programme for the HUMAN.  The people who have tried Parelli and failed have missed this fact. But this takes alot from the HUMAN, they are asked to truly look at themselves and it's not a pretty picture most of the time, it's hard to break through this, to recognize all your weeknesses and faults and still live with them but also learn how to control them. Learning all this stuff is a jouney of self reflection, self reflection is something most people struggle with.
This ability is what all GREAT HORSEMEN have, you know the ones. Those who can get a horse to do anything in a quiet way without losing their temper or blaming the horse.

I believe that Parelli is expensive, but he is running a business too, Alot of the equipment can be bought cheaper but his education packs can't but in my opinion they are worth it, (only my opinion guys!)

Don't close your mind to anything, don't take someones opinions as your own, question, research, test, LEARN.


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## Kate_13 (19 May 2007)

Lottie, you need to make you arguments more balanced if you want people to respect your posts. Read earlier posts.

We are not jealous of bareback riding as we could and do,do  it if we wanted. 

We do have good relationships with our horses and they don't hate us, that is your opinion. 

Not all of us are BHS trained and I doubt very much anyone is in fear of losing their jobs!!!!

As far as it being enlightenment for the human, what a load of twoddle! 

I am happy with me, my horse and my pets, I don't need a journey of self discovery! For me personally if people need a journey of self insight, then they aren't very secure to begin with. I feel it is a shame that people have to self discover and bring their poor pony into it!

And more to the point in this forum we are all respectable and responsible horse owners, do you really think we beat our horses into doing what we want????? It is a partnership whether you have a carrot stick or not.


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## Blizzard (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
PMSL, what just £260?  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Haha. 

[/ QUOTE ]

A bargain at twice the price!


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## foxigypsi (19 May 2007)

You think I am not well informed. Well I am. It just so happens that I do already know exactly when all the vertabrae have finished growing, but just because mares don't finish developing untill about nine years old, you don't see amyone wait untill then to break them in!

I know it is not a good idea to break any horse in at 2 but I was mearly stating a fact, so maybe you should forward your comments to the racing industry.


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## Bananaman (19 May 2007)

I don't want to get dragged further into the debate but I like to think that I keep an open mind and can take what I feel I need from different takes on horse/ human training, however it does seem to me that part of the problem with the way that Parelli is percieved by others is in the terminology used.
Imo 'carrot stick' and 'playing games' are an invitation NOT to be taken seriously by a lot of people.


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## Grahamp (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Lottie, you need to make you arguments more balanced if you want people to respect your posts. Read earlier posts.

We are not jealous of bareback riding as we could and do,do  it if we wanted. 

We do have good relationships with our horses and they don't hate us, that is your opinion. 

Not all of us are BHS trained and I doubt very much anyone is in fear of losing their jobs!!!!

As far as it being enlightenment for the human, what a load of twoddle! 

I am happy with me, my horse and my pets, I don't need a journey of self discovery! For me personally if people need a journey of self insight, then they aren't very secure to begin with. I feel it is a shame that people have to self discover and bring their poor pony into it!

And more to the point in this forum we are all respectable and responsible horse owners, do you really think we beat our horses into doing what we want????? It is a partnership whether you have a carrot stick or not. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Kudu, sorry don't know your name, 
I agree with and accept all you said above. Some of my friends who are more traditional than me are in exactly the same situation as you are.

One point I would like to try and expand on though is the Human development aspect of Parelli.

One of the principles is for the Human not to get negatively emotional with their horse. That means don't ever get frustrated, angry, upset, frightened etc with your horse. 

For me and many of my Parelli friends this is a major challenge.
If you never feel like that with your horse then that is fantastic and helps to explain why you do so well with him/her.

Graham


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## Searcher (19 May 2007)

I would just like to say that Pat Parelli has studied horses all his life, and just wants to teach the human to communicate with the horse with the horses own language. The language is with the body, as horses communicate this way to each other.
 It's a partnership with your horse.
They are not trying to teach you to be the "dominant leader", but a "passive leader".
to teach your horse to want to be with you instead of just put up and shut up.
to be aware of your moods when you go to see your horse, if you are in a bad mood then your horse will know and wont be as responsive to you, and before long he will be in a bad mood too.
The method is "pressure and release" the knowing when to release that is when the horse learns he's doing the right thing. 

    S.


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## CASP3R (19 May 2007)

Does Parelli have all the answers ? No. Pat himself would admit he is still learning ( as we all are ).
Is Parelli the cheapest ? Again no, but as many people have already said the tools are built to last. So why do I do Parelli ?
Because, like many, I was inspired by the relationship they demonstrate between horse and human ( call it clever marketing if you want ) especially the liberty work.
Is Parelli the only way ? Clearly not.
I have seen Ray Hunt, Carl Hester, Kelly Marks, Monty Roberts, Mark Rashid, Clinton Anderson, Stacey Westfall, Chris Cox, Gawani Pony Boy, Andrea Fappani to name but a few.
There are as many good horsemen ( and women ) whose names are not well known just going about their business and connecting with their horses who we can learn from if lucky enough to meet them.
I think we are all aspiring for the same things in horsemanship. As with most walks of life there is more than one way of getting there.
The content of the Parelli packs has changed recently but what made the difference for me was having more advanced students around ( both Parelli and non Parelli ) I could ask for help.
What tells me if I am on the right track is how my horse greets me and the comments I get from other horse owners about how well mannered my horse is and how well we ride together. Parelli has been, and will continue to be, one of my tools and I for one welcome their help and presence in the UK.


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## vicijp (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

One of the principles is for the Human not to get negatively emotional with their horse. That means don't ever get frustrated, angry, upset, frightened etc with your horse. 

For me and many of my Parelli friends this is a major challenge.


[/ QUOTE ]

But you dont need anyone to tell you how to do that, let alone a marketing ploy.
If you get angry/frustrated/upset with something, such as a horse, then a shrink would be a better option.
If you are frightened then you have the wrong horse.
The things you guys stress are the main teaching point of Parelli are things gained by experience with different horses.
There are no short cuts to that.


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## RuthR (19 May 2007)

a Shrink won't help you understand how a horse thinks because they think in the exact opposite way to how we think.  Horses = prey animal; human = predator; genetics tells a horse that they taste good to predators so if you feel threatened by one you either run away or you fight.  Horse's aren't afraid that we are going to hurt them...they are afraid we are going to kill them.

Just because we sometimes forget that we are predators doesn't mean a horse does - they are acutely aware of it; they survival depends on it.  the only way that a horse's behaviour will stop being frustrating to you is if you learn to see the world through their eyes first - thats what Parelli helps you to do...not a shrink (IMHO)


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## Searcher (19 May 2007)

I will be at the NEC in August  to learn as much as i can
I cant get enough of parelli. 
 you only have to buy one carrot stick as they are of such good quality and can last for years.also the parelli halters.
I had a large Suffolk Punch(horse) and a parelli halter. he had great respect for it as it works on pressure and release. if he pulled it gave pressure if he didnt pull he got relief.
 he learnt not to pull in 5 mins. 
I did have a cheaper one but the knots came loose and it frayed after a month, this one still looks new and ive had it for a year


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## Skhosu (19 May 2007)

no, you misunderstand. I don't do parelli. I have happy horses in general, I am not talking about my horses. I want someone to post a picture of a horse ENJOYING parelli?
I have only ever seen dull, lifeless horses when pictures are shown of parelli. Are there no pictures of horses enjoying it? Or why is this question being ignored by everyone ranting about how if you don't do parelli/ride with a bit/carry a stick you are not connected or your horse is not happy?


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## RuthR (19 May 2007)

Hi,

Tell me how to post a picture and I will see what I can do!  However, even if I do post a picture you may still think my horse looks bored even if I know he isn't...it can be a very subjective thing.  Far better to watch a video clip where you can see how the horse appears for a length of time rather than just a split second.  But as I say I'm happy to do it...just tell me how.

Ruth


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## Searcher (19 May 2007)

I couldnt agree more RuthR. 
I was going to say that horses only concern is their survival, if they feel threatened they will fight for it and do not care who gets in the way.
 We are predators no matter what anyone thinks. We eat meat so we are predators and horses can smell that.
 We need to gain their trust first and foremost before we can develope a relationship with them.
 once you have got that you still have to work to keep it.
 they are very intelligent animals and every move you make means something to them, so you have to be aware of every thing you do around them.
Its so easy to teach them to do the wrong thing without knowing it.


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## sophielove (19 May 2007)

Brilliantly said, Tierra!  I have heard that some of the people who helped Linda Parelli DEVELOP Fluidity have walked away from it and the organisation, believing that she is going in the wrong direction with this.  I have recently been researching an article on 'balance in horse and rider', talking to Alexander Technique afficionados, horse and dressage trainers, and they have all said exactly what you did!
What is so interesting is the FALL OUT from Parelli - staff, students and instructors.  There must be something wrong with an organisation which attracts so much negativity.  Why?  Because it looks and sounds and feels like a cult - all these posts from the Parelli afficionados - they all use the same language - the Parelli language, the 'Parelli-isms' - haven't they got minds of their own?  Because it IS very expensive - pack, gear, lessons, events.  And yet the information IS good, it IS helpful, it CAN make a difference with your horse, and as someone said it is often people who are 'overhorsed' who turn to Parelli in desperation.  And maybe the answer is STILL that they are 'overhorsed'.  If Parelli enthusiasts, staff, owners, trainers didn't go around spouting that Parelli is THE way, the ONLY way, and that all other horsepeople are idiots and doing it 'wrong' or fools who haven't yet seen the light, there wouldn't be this antipathy towards them.  No-one slags off the BHS like this and they do Levels/Stages and charge a decent whack for their books and exams and we accept that as par for the course.  What's so funny about Parelli at Stoneleigh is that they fired the old Parelli UK people for trying to get it accepted in traditional equitation education, and now they are positioning themselves as part of the establishment at Stoneleigh!  It's not so much the information that is all wrong about Parelli it is their ATTITUDE - their arrogance, their 'my way or the highway', their patronising perception of anyone who hasn't joined the cult, the fact that they always travel in twos just like cultees (in fact, read the book 'Captive Hearts, Captive Minds' by Tobias &amp; Lalich) and you will agree that this IS a cult and that's the thing that scares the discerning, intelligent, thinking, self-aware, confident horseperson with good self esteem and an open mind the most.


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## RuthR (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
What's so funny about Parelli at Stoneleigh is that they fired the old Parelli UK people for trying to get it accepted in traditional equitation education, and now they are positioning themselves as part of the establishment at Stoneleigh!  

[/ QUOTE ]

FACT:  The former distributors (Parelli UK) were in breach of their contract so Parelli US sought legal advice and dissolved the contract.  No-one was fired.  After that experience Parelli US decided to take everything back in house and no longer have any distributorships.


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## Skhosu (19 May 2007)

I believe there is a stepby step guide to posting pictures in the picture gallery.


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## RuthR (19 May 2007)

Thank-you, I'm at work at the moment so when I get home I will attempt to do this.

thanks again


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## spaniel (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I couldnt agree more RuthR. 
I was going to say that horses only concern is their survival, if they feel threatened they will fight for it and do not care who gets in the way.
 We are predators no matter what anyone thinks. We eat meat so we are predators and horses can smell that.

 <font color="red">Which is whyI spend £18 on a bottle of Pax and not huudreds on bits of knotted rope  </font> 
 We need to gain their trust first and foremost before we can develope a relationship with them.
 once you have got that you still have to work to keep it.
 they are very intelligent animals <font color="red">Absolute twaddle,  the horses brain is tiny in relation to its size and its been proven time and time again that horses are, in fact, not very intelligent at all  </font>  and every move you make means something to them, <font color="red"> Wrong again,  only certaibn movements register at all in the horse otherwise they would spend their entire lives in a state of heightened awareness </font>  so you have to be aware of every thing you do around them.
Its so easy to teach them to do the wrong thing without knowing it. <font color="red">Only if you arent sensible and experienced  </font>  

[/ QUOTE ]


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## sophielove (19 May 2007)

*Rambo, you are smarter than the average bear!

Parelli have asked their worldwide community of cultees to get onto this forum, with a plea in their weekly E Newsletter which goes to about 80,000 homes worldwide every Friday (see below) so you can expect to see a whole lot more newbie Parelli fanatics weighing in with their two cents worth!* 

Horse &amp; Hound Magazine 17 May 07; Parelli feature, page 9
An announcement of our evolving presence and commitment to the growth of natural horsemanship in the UKinterestingly it says that Pat will be teaching clinics at Stoneleigh himself....which is news to us!! How interestingbut it never hurts to put it out there! What is exciting, they are asking for YOUR opinion on WHAT you think about Parelli? So please post your views on www.horseandhound.co.uk/parelli

So far the poll is only two hours live and there are 136 postings....lets show how much WE CARE about increasing knowledge around horse human relationships! Thanks for sharing the journey with us all! <font color="red">  </font>  <font color="blue">  </font>

*more slick marketing, more cultee behaviour, more b***dy Parelli!*


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## gemmah (19 May 2007)

Hi everyone! Saw some of these posts and thaught I'd reply!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  I have been studying PHN for about 4yrs now (I am also a BHSAI int SM and have been woking with and owning horses for 19yrs) I must say that in all the arguments I have heard on both sides in my own opinion there is not so much natural v normal as good horsemanship v bad! I know many 'normal' horsemen who are fantastic and who's help and opinions I value greatly and also some 'naturals' who  I wouldn't let lose on a rocking horse! The thing with Parelli, if you look at the material withtin the study packs, is that while yes it is VERY expensive on the surface, the knowledge you can gain from using the info. provided is invaluable. Most of us have lessons fairly regulary and can pay anything form £15 to £50 per hour, so when put into perspective, £120 for a level 1 pack, with about 15hours of dvd's study guides etc that you can keep and refer back to for ever doesn't seem that bad!
With regard to the schooling whip/carrot stick argument, as mentioned previously the main difference is in the flexibilty of the stick. Sometimes as we all know it is necessary to defend your space from the horse, or let him know that yes you really DID mean move! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 and with the carrot stick is is possible to be very firm without the flick and sting that would be produced by a whip. One can also stop at the last minute if the horse yields and the stick will stop too with out making contact, where as a long flexible whip MAY not. Both points are very valuble in building trust and respect with your horse. (by the way, if anyone is interested, it is called a carrot stick to try and remind people to be half way between the 'stick' person and the 'carrot' person, as niether are effective in the horses eyes!!)
Mentioning the 'middle aged women who are scared to ride' yes there are probably lot's of them! As there are in the 'normal' world too! (I teach several of them!) The thing that gets missed so often is that many people only turn to alternative methods when all else has failed. They are then starting something completely knew, often with a 'problem' horse and shatterd confidence. This takes time to rectify and it is unfair to ridicule some-one who is doing their best not to trip up on their stick and hang themselves with a twelve foot line AND get over their lack of confidence enough to be a good leader for their horse! At least they are trying and haven't just said 'oh well it must be the horse I'll sell it and get a different one' What most people see of Parelli is the very bottom end. LEARNING! Watching this and saying people are silly and ruining their horses (I hear that alot) is like watching a person's first few driving lessons and laughing saying they'll never be a racing driver because they stalled or crunched the gears! Everyone has to learn and in learing the most valuable thing for the rider AND the horse is CONFIDENCE, and that will just take as long as it takes.
I think ONE of the biggest things to bring from Parelli (and there are too many good bits to mention) is the building of a language with your horse. Pat always says 'Love, Language and Leadership in equal doses' and it is the language that is so often missing today. People tend to either Love , love ,love their horses and then get walked all over and taken for a ride by their horse (pun intended!) who now thinks he rules the world, or they are all leadership and get the job done at the expense of the horses comfort and dignity with the bigger bit bigger stick approach. In so many cases the horse and the human just don't understand each other. A bit like going abroad and shouting 'chips and beer' louder instead of in the native language! You might get what you wanted in the end but it takes ages, looks ugly and neither party really enjoys it! LOL! 
I know I've been waffling on for ages now guys ! Sorry! I just find it so frustrating when this whole debate comes up and both sides just shut down, put their blinkers on and refuse to enter in to any kind of 'grown up' discussions and back up their opinions with facts. My experience has been all positive wilth PNH and I cannot fault the programme in any way. However, I do concede that there are a few people out there who follow many 'natural' approaches and as horsemen are ineffective, and often a danger to themselves and others but these people would, in all likelyhood, be exactly the same whatever method they followed, and I can assure you that that is NOT what the Parelli method is about!
Just to finish (Yes, I nearly have! LOL!) a bit about my own experiences. I have ridden since I was 10, competing in dressage, showjumping and eventing through pony club and into my 20's. I have hunted, worked with dressage horses, racehorses and riding school horses, and taught clients young and old for 9years. I've had experience with problem horses and problem people, and until I lost my old horse about 5 years ago competed successfully in bsja. I have also had my fair share of bumps, scrapes, falls and dented ego! I thaught I was doing ok!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Then along came my current horse! Hmmm 16.2HH of highly opinionated very sensitive mare that told me in no uncertain terms that I wasn't anywhere near as good as I thaught I was!! I had lessons on this horse twice a week for 2 years from fully qualified instructors, a BHSI and a BHSII (spendig alot more along the way than I have on Parelli by the way!) I didn't fall off her once but she was getting worse and worse (rearing, plunging freaking out etc) and it culminated in us both going over backwards and me having a very lucky escape with a crushed leg! EVERYONE told me to shoot her, sell her to a man who could be hard on her, put her in foal and don't ride her again etc. I was devastated (yes I love my ponies!!LOL) Enter PNH on a free DVD!! Watched it whilst I was recovering and thaught what the hell! I had nothing to lose everyone wanted my horse dead!! Four years later and here we are! We're not doing anything great (YET!) mainly due to nearly 2 of those years being spent tryint to fix a recurring hoof abcess and so not working with the horse 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 but we can ride in a halter, My horse is calm relaxed, can take new things in her stride, and I understand more of why she does the things she does than I could ever have hoped. If you have heard or seen bad things about PNH please try to look at the info at source before you make a judgement. And yes it is just a lot of common sense, but as in everyday life, that is something sadly lacking FAR too often these days! LOL!  In my eyes anything that can help people to be safe and confident and have fun with their horses has to be a good thing. And if they don't all want to ride, then who are we to make a judgement? After all, most of us  have horses for fun, so if you're having fun WHO CARES!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 If anyone wants to know more or ask any questions about why I say what I say then feel free to message me and the official PNH site is www.parelli.com


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## Grahamp (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

One of the principles is for the Human not to get negatively emotional with their horse. That means don't ever get frustrated, angry, upset, frightened etc with your horse. 

For me and many of my Parelli friends this is a major challenge.


[/ QUOTE ]

But you dont need anyone to tell you how to do that, let alone a marketing ploy.
If you get angry/frustrated/upset with something, such as a horse, then a shrink would be a better option.
If you are frightened then you have the wrong horse.
The things you guys stress are the main teaching point of Parelli are things gained by experience with different horses.
There are no short cuts to that. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Vici
You are right, experience with lots of horses is the best way to learn these things, but I am not sure it is the only way and most of us do not have that opportunity.

If you never feel any of those emotions with your horses then that is great and is one reason why you do well with them but many people do and, I believe, do not understand the effect they are having on their horse. 
If you get a chance to talk to a Parelli professional. please do, they will explain it much better than I can here.


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## sophielove (19 May 2007)

Graham, you talk about the 'Human development aspect of Parelli.'  Most of the Parelli people I have met have SERIOUS emotional problems (you can tell by their bodies, slightly crazed look in their eyes and fanatical attachment to a cause/leader).  If the Parelli organisation is so good at human development tell me why do they have such a high staff turnover?  why can't they keep their instructors in any country in the world?  Why are there LESS Parelli instructors now than at any other time in their history?  There's something seriously wrong with that organisation - it's NOT the horsemanship, it's the PEOPLE!


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## sleepingdragon10 (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Blah Blah Blah. ou don't know what you are talking about! You all just don't understand about parelli do you. You DON'T give it a chance. BHS is RUBBISH! I couldn't even control my pony when i did BHS. And guess what, I can control my pony now that iv started parelli. If you are a BHS instructor, you are probably only saying those things about parelli as your scared of losing your jobs. Do you know what BHS stands for? 

Big Horrible and Stupid. Thats my motto! 

[/ QUOTE ]

It's always so refreshing to see a sensible argument being put forward


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## RuthR (19 May 2007)

With regards to the instructor situation Pat has always said 'Hard In, Easy Out'.  they only accept 10 new people in the instructor program per year - how many do the BHS accept?  I don't know the exact figure but I bet its a lot more.

I do not know why people leave the organisation - they each have their own personal reasons.  I do know that there are very strict contracts that instructors must adhere to because the Parelli's want to ensure that only the best instructors are out there teaching their system.  

I have had the priveledge to meet and be instructed by several different PNH instructors all of whom speak fondly of Pat and Linda and the organisation itself.  These instructos often travel the world teaching because they love their job so much (I have been taught by people from the US, Australia, NZ and the UK).  If someone does leave then it is always with Pat and Linda's blessing and they wish them the best for the future...there is no animosity.

I personnally would love to become a Parelli Professional - I couldn't think of another job I would rather do.


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## LEC (19 May 2007)

I deal with horses other people have cocked up. I use no parelli in order to make them happy instead I treat them like a horse. I think this is the problem with a lot of horses they are NOT allowed to be horses. They are pets that just do not live in your house. 
NH is just over sentimentalised tripe - Why not just advocate good horsemanship and understanding. But of course that would not make so much money.


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## Dancinglite (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
With regards to the instructor situation Pat has always said 'Hard In, Easy Out'.  they only accept 10 new people in the instructor program per year - how many do the BHS accept?  I don't know the exact figure but I bet its a lot more.

I do know that there are very strict contracts that instructors must adhere to because the Parelli's want to ensure that only the best instructors are out there teaching their system.  



[/ QUOTE ]

I guess there are only 10 per year that can afford it?


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## sophielove (19 May 2007)

Do you take Visa?

PMSL . . . ver' ver' good!

All you need is a website and you're in business . . . horsemanship for the (h)ordinary horseperson . . .


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## Maiscene (19 May 2007)

I have tried it with my stroppy aggressive chestnut mare and I like some of the principals and games but then again not all of it is very affective and I find followers can be alittle too in to it. But each to their own, It does however promote a good relationship and some basic manners. Try it!


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## tiga7592 (19 May 2007)

I am replying because Horse and Hound want to know what I think. If other people aren't keen then that is not my problem or concern.

I should probably have been one of the last people to embrace the NH movement having BHS teaching qualifications following which I trained as a Mary Wanless 'Ride With Your Mind' Coach. I Evented and Dressage'd at affilliated level and now run a small stud breeding Lusitanos. I was seriously into 'Classical Dressage' and display riding and everything was 'on the bit' and in a double bridle as soon as it was ready.

The BHS do a great job and I learnt a lot from them. Mary Wanless is the worlds leading authority on rider biomechanics. She filled in for me things the BHS left out.  

When I found out about Parelli Natural Horsemanship it filled in all the many gaps the other two programmes had left. I could ride pretty well but I was not a horseman. The Parelli system trains you to be a horseman first, a rider second and a competitor third. Huge numbers of people try to do it the other way around and the horse is the one who suffers.

So I wholeheartedly welcome the Parelli Organisations move to Stoneleigh and look forward to future collaborations between PNH and the other disciplines based there.


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## mitchellk (19 May 2007)

I watched a Parelli demo at a polo match a few years ago and I must say that the horses had a dull look in their faces and were very 'mechanical' and I did not enjoy the experience one bit, they had no spirit or personality it left me with a bitter after taste.
If my horse was standing at the gate waiting for me to come out of the house to 'play' I would be horrified, he should be eating grass with his friends as part of a herd.


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## panchoearle (19 May 2007)

"Common Sense"
To dismiss the Parelli program as common sense is to commit a grave error in judgement. There is little common about the Parelli program - it is in fact most un-common in it's approach. I advise those who dismiss it to give it a study, look at the results people are having with their horses (and horses are having with their people!). Open your mind to the un-common - I believe you'll be pleased with the results. In my opinion, the move of PNH to Stoneleigh will be mutually beneficial.

In addition, the Parelli carrot stick tool is most unlike a dressage or lunge whip. It's an extension of your arm, not reactive in nature or "flippy" in any way. Pick one up sometime and you'll see the difference at once.


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## ShirlJean (19 May 2007)

Reading some of the first comments listed on the Parelli program, I have to wonder if all people are concerned about is money, rather than the well being of their horse.  I have found the program to be an emotional, life changing experience.  The money I paid for my equipment 13 years ago was well spent.....I am still using the same equipment.  You have to be open-minded enough to accept the fact that there might be a "better way" for you to interact with your horse.  As Pat says..."If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got"...I am getting a lot more from my horses now than I ever could have dreamed of.


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## gemmah (19 May 2007)

Hi! Me again! Just sat down and read all the posts! I should be fencing my field! LOL. Just a quick 1 (well maybe not that quick) from a PNH'er! Instead of all this who/what is right b*****ks can't we just listen to the horse??? That is what parelli trys to teach you but if you study enough and open your mind you can achieve this in many different ways! When I go to a show and see nice responsive balanced horses jumping in a snaffle, a caveson and no martingale enjoying what they do and not being punished if they make a mistake, that is horsemanship! I don't care what the person labels it as, the horse tells me!! When they have enough ironmongery and leather strapped to them to sink a battle ship and are still fighting that is NOT!!! (unfortunately it is all too often the latter that I see 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 )Listen to the horse and HE will tell you if you're right! If he opens his mouth to evade the bit, if he rears, bolts, bucks, swishes his tail, bites, kicks etc etc. or leaves when you turn him lose HE'S TELLING YOU SOMETHING!! If you don't cover up his opinions with flashes, grackles, martingales, bigger bits, sticks, etc etc and you look for the reason WHY he's doing what he's doing (pretty much always our fault, even if indirectly) and address it in the correct way you will end up with a partner and friend who will try his heart out for you and stay with you even if given the option to leave. The horse doesn't care what you wear, what you call it or who you pay for the knowledge but he does care and he does know if you treat him fairly, give him leadership and understand his way of thinking and listen when he 'speaks' to you. That is what horsemanship is all about, 'natural' or 'normal'.
There are alot of traditional horsemen who do all these things just as a matter of course and I know quite a few, one in particular who even though I am one of 'them' is still my very first port of call if I ever have any problems. It seems that now the horse has become such an item of leisure, riding and 'doing' at all costs has taken over from the real art of horsemanship, with the horse being made to put up with people's inadiquacies instead of people having to take responsibility for themselves and become good enough that their horse doesn't have these negative 'opinions' about them!!
For me, PHN has given me massive ammounts of knowledge and in conjuntion with what I had already learned from bhs, experience in the field, other instructors, many different horses and plenty of my own mistakes it has taught me things I didn't even realise existed! I learn something knew every day, from MANY different sources!  I follow the parelli programme but I do search out and apply anything else that makes sense and my horse tells me is ok! (As do Linda and Pat btw).
About the use of bits n stuff. Parelli does use bits, snaffles and, at higher levels, selected curb bits, but when PEOPLE are learning it is better for the horse if they get a bump on the nose from wobbbly hand than a jab in the mouth, and when the HORSE is learning it's better to run in to the halter than in to the bit. Similar I suppose to schooling in a lunge caveson in hand b4 starting the horse and having novice riders learn balance b4 being let lose on the horse's mouth! If you think of bits like holding your partner's hand. If they want to be with you and are having as much fun as you are, it's simply the lightest touch to communicate your intention and they follow. If you have to heave and pull (and in that I include the multitude of 'correctional' bits) then the other party clearly would rather not be there! LOL. Anyway if everyone on both sides looks for the facts and realities in each others methods instead of judging from bandwagon, accross the board opinions and brief observations (and that is directed at blinkered 'naturals' as well as 'normals! I'll be in trouble from both sides now! LOL) And most importantly listens to the horse himself, we could ALL learn alot!!


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## Kate_13 (19 May 2007)

So are you saying that the Spanish riding school of vienna should have carrot stick?????

Spaniel, you are so right. 

These people are clones!!!!

I can't believe you lot are still bleeting on about how us 'normal' and I do mean 'normal' people do not have a good bond with our horse? Also do you really think we are that stupid not to know the mechanics and thought process of the horse??? We all know they are flight animals! 

Do you lot really belive we whip our horses and beat them into submission?!!! Do you really think that we cannot communicate with our horses?!!! 

You lot are having a bubble bath!!!!!


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## Weezy (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


From the e-news:
An announcement of our evolving presence and commitment to the growth of natural horsemanship in the UKinterestingly it says that Pat will be teaching clinics at Stoneleigh himself....which is news to us!! How interestingbut it never hurts to put it out there! What is exciting, they are asking for YOUR opinion on WHAT you think about Parelli? So please post your views on www.horseandhound.co.uk/parelli

So far the poll is only two hours live and there are 136 postings....lets show how much WE CARE about increasing knowledge around horse human relationships! Thanks for sharing the journey with us all! 

[/ QUOTE ]

That has made me PMSL!  Obv there are no inside Parelli people contributing to that forum - seeing that Pat himself has quoted about being so happy to be based at Stoneleigh 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

That didn't come from a forum. It is from the official Parelli e-news that is sent weekly from their headquarters.  You can view it if you visit Parelli.com and click e-news. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Still think it is rather funny that they do not know that Pat is already set up at Stoneleigh - or is he lying...


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## gemmah (19 May 2007)

kudu. No I would not imply that anyone should or would even need to use a carrot stick, I was just expaining in answer to some previous posts the difference between a schooling whip and the stick and why we chose to use it.  It saddens me to have to agree that there are many 'clones' as you put it out there, but please be assured I am not one of them and there are plenty of other pnh people who have a balanced opinion of life and horses too! It is also a shame as I posted b4 that no balnced discussions can be entered into on this subject! It's almost as scary as the hunting debate! LOL (and b4 anyone asks I an VERY PRO hunting! Oops i'll probly get my ass kicked from sumwhere now!!LMAO)  PNH is very commercialised and americanised yes, but there is plenty of good stuff in there.  I don't know who is implying that 'normal' people do not have a good relationship with their horses but it's certainly not me!!! And I would never be so rude, insensitive or arrogant as to imply that people would beat their horses unless it is something I have seen with my own eyes!!I see good and bad examples on both sides and, as I said in my previous post, it's the horse that tells me if the method is right or wrong, and he will never lie!


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## ges (19 May 2007)

I am one of those middle aged women!!!! and I have ridden traditionally for 32 years.  For the past 2 I have taken to learning 'parelli' which at times has been challenging, frustrating, exhausting but more than anything else absolutely fantastic and rewarding.  How can understanding and interpreting the language of the horse and then replicating it be so negative.  I can see that many of your readers are object to it but is it fair to comment on something in such a way if it hasn't been personally experienced.  It has taken me some time to progress and it has been difficult to change but I belong to a share scheme where children and adults can build a relationship with their horse or pony - children adapt to it so easily and to see them go and catch their pony in a field and read their ponie's body language and play their games is a wonderful sight.  My daughter, aged 11, was lucky enough to own her own pony last year and she practises parelli regularly with him.  He has been a little poorly recently and with the help of parelli practices she has been able to put him at ease and settle him.  He looks forward to her going to the yard and if he seems playful she will play games with him before catching him.  She rides him in a halter - no bit - and a bareback pad - walking, trotting, cantering, jumping and all the added extras that you can experience with parelli - in a school and out on hacks.  She plays with him on the ground and mounted and their relationship is ever developing - there is such a strong bond and when she is out of sight he makes a fuss until he sees her.  

I would urge everyone to at least have a go - understand the horse from a different view - learn to tackle problems differently and recognise when your horse is trying to tell you something - horses aren't naughty, cheeky maybe, and they shouldn't be punished or forced into doing something they are not happy with - everything is achievable with parelli - horses have feelings and personalities too and sometimes the traditional way just doesn't work.  Don't be afraid to try something new and change.

From a very passionate parelli rider


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## ges (19 May 2007)

Hi, interesting reading 

maybe the horses were not dull looking but actually relaxed which is a key factor in parelli and an ultimate aim - if your horse is relaxed they are relaxed with - even tail swishing is an indicator that your horse is not happy with something you are asking it to do.

Likewise, with the field scenario - don't you think that horses sometimes get bored with each others company - playing for them stimulates their brain - how, depends on whether they are left or right brained and if their rider can stimulate that more for them then of course they are going to look forward to that person arriving - its not a negative response.


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## RuthR (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


From the e-news:
An announcement of our evolving presence and commitment to the growth of natural horsemanship in the UKinterestingly it says that Pat will be teaching clinics at Stoneleigh himself....which is news to us!! How interestingbut it never hurts to put it out there! What is exciting, they are asking for YOUR opinion on WHAT you think about Parelli? So please post your views on www.horseandhound.co.uk/parelli

So far the poll is only two hours live and there are 136 postings....lets show how much WE CARE about increasing knowledge around horse human relationships! Thanks for sharing the journey with us all! 

[/ QUOTE ]

That has made me PMSL!  Obv there are no inside Parelli people contributing to that forum - seeing that Pat himself has quoted about being so happy to be based at Stoneleigh 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

That didn't come from a forum. It is from the official Parelli e-news that is sent weekly from their headquarters.  You can view it if you visit Parelli.com and click e-news. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Still think it is rather funny that they do not know that Pat is already set up at Stoneleigh - or is he lying... 

[/ QUOTE ]

There seems to be confusion over this point.  What was implied in H&amp;H was that Pat Parelli would personnally be instruction courses at Stoneleigh from next year.  This is what the Parelli e-news are refering to when they say 'news to us'.  The e-news is not saying that they are not going to be at Stoneleigh...just that Pat won't be teaching the courses.  The courses will be taught by endorsed Parelli instructors.

I hope that clears up the confusion.


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## kellybeau (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
So are any Parelli advocates going to justify and answer my previous comment about Parelli backing 2 year olds and setting up and competing in distasteful "contests" in the US? 

[/ QUOTE ]
Firstly, HE didn't set the competition up...he was just a competitor!!!
Secondly, that contest took place quite a number of years ago and as far as I'm aware it's the only time Pat ever competed in it.  Maybe this is because he realised it was a mistake...Pat Parelli is not a god,  he IS capable of getting things wrong and making mistakes like everyone else......
Trouble is there's always folks eager to criticise PNH at any chance they get - even dwelling on one competition that happened years ago.


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## RuthR (19 May 2007)

Ok,  I hope I have figured out how to use photobucket!  I've never posted pictures in this way before so I hope it works ok.  Most of the pictures are quite old now - I tend to be out in the field by myself so don't have a lot to choose from but I hope you will see that both me and my horse are happy.  We are not doing anything particularly fancy but we are having fun.  As I say they are a bit old so we are a bit more advance now.





































The last one is really just to show that he can be very cheeky!   
	
	
		
		
	


	




  I can't figure out how to make them smaller...sorry...any advice?!


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## Kate_13 (19 May 2007)

Thanks for the pics, what is the red string hanging from your saddle?

Also I can't honestly see what you have done differently to what we do??? Except swap a bridle for a piece of rope and carry an orange stick everywhere. 

I am not trying to be rude, just understand.


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## gemmah (19 May 2007)

Hey ruth! lovely pics! Well done for managing to post them! I don't even know how to get mine on the comptuer in the 1st place! LOL! I think it looks like you're both having gr8 fun! I am going to pre-empt some comments that I am sure will follow though! As you said these are oldish pics that show you fairly near the beginning of your journey and although only slightly visible in a couple of the pics, I know from somewhere comments will probably come re the shape of the horse and lack of engagement etc etc ie the fact that he is not working correctly with the correct muscle development esp in his belly area where he has the low slung look of not using the top line correctly. I know this is an issue as I have experienced it myself!! However for anyone that it thinking this, please remember that what you are seeing is not the finished product but only part of the process. Please don't judge the cake by what the cake mix looks like! Ruth Please don't take this as a critisism it isn't, only I have, in the past, had the same things aimed at me and I thaught I'd mention it b4 anyting negative is said. Ruth I think your pics are gr8 and I'd love to speak with you more sometime if you want to pm me. If anyone wants to see more pics check out Ingela's site www.kingdomhorse.co.uk. There are som gr8 1's there!


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## RuthR (19 May 2007)

The red string is just something you get when you officially pass Level 1 - its just like in karate as you go up the levels you get a differnet coloured belt.

I guess it doesn't look much different but thats the point - good natural horsemanship shouldn't look different to good 'traditional' horsemanship.  The reason I agreed to post these pictures was because someone asked for photos of horses enjoying Parelli.  I hope these pictures show that my horse is very happy and enjoying himself.

He was a horse who had had his personality surpressed and he was forced to do a lot of things that he didn't want to do.  Pre-parelli he wouldn't catch (he landed me in hospital when I was trying to catch him one day - he spooked and double barrelled me in the chest as he tried to run away), wouldn't stand to be groomed, tacked up, rugged up etc, he would bronk when being ridden, he would spook frequently (this ment he would spin 180 degrees and take off bucking in the other direction!), he wouldn't trailer load, he couldn't be left in a stable cos he would rear and plunge at the door...do I need to go on?!

Now he's a calm, happy and relaxed horse who greets me at the gate, is happy to be with me, I don't need to tie him up to groom him or saddle him, he will load at liberty (in fact sometimes I can't keep him out the trailer!) - basically now, thanks to Parelli and the changes it caused  *me* to make within  *myself* , we have a wonderful relationship and we are a true partnership.   

I thought I was good with horses but Naz made me realise that I didn't have a clue so I had to look outside the box to find something that would help me with this horse.  For me, this method has worked and I now couldn't think of any other way of being with a horse.  If you can acheive this without then thats brilliant...I just needed a bit of help.


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## RuthR (19 May 2007)

Yes he is not properly engaged in any of the photos and I take that on.  The photos are a couple of years old now so we are lot further on - I just don't have any more recent pictures!    
	
	
		
		
	


	




.  I would definately recomment kingdom horse for some more 'advanced' pictures


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## tiga7592 (19 May 2007)

This is one of my Parelli ponies. You can criticise him for looking like a christmas tree having a bad hair day but I will not have it said that he is dull and bored with the proceedings.


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## Kate_13 (19 May 2007)

Thanks for the explanation Ruth, I wouldn't comment on conformation or engagement as that was not was required of wanting to see the photos.

Congratulations on what you have achieved. 

For me I personally and fortunately do not have the problems that you have encountered, so for me I would not turn to parelli as I *touches wood* don't have any problems that require me to look outside my current equine knowledge.


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## RuthR (19 May 2007)

I love your horse!  I want him!!


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## Kate_13 (19 May 2007)

Me too, he's lovely!


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## Skhosu (19 May 2007)

So what about a fit tb who enjoys his eventing? HE can be soft as you like at home, on the buckle. Once his blood is up, and he LOVES his job, he gets strong. I compete him in two different types of snaffle, a myler for xc, and an ordinary french link one for dressage. So since he gets strong, is he not a happy horse? (And yes, he wears a martingale, as a safety net)

if they use 'at higher levels, selected curb bits,' then why can competition horses, horses at the top of their game, be ridden in anything other than a snaffle? What happened the theory of a bit is only as strong as the rider who uses it? And hackamore type bridles can be severe enough and cause significant damage...


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## Skhosu (19 May 2007)

Lovely horses in the pictures, both gorgeous. And both look interested and happy, so there's my question answered!


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## Grahamp (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Graham, you talk about the 'Human development aspect of Parelli.'  Most of the Parelli people I have met have SERIOUS emotional problems (you can tell by their bodies, slightly crazed look in their eyes and fanatical attachment to a cause/leader).  
*I know what you mean - I have met some similar people who are not Parelli - speaking as a simple man those women scare me.* 
If the Parelli organisation is so good at human development tell me why do they have such a high staff turnover? 
*I don't know, I am an FD and I can honestly say that working with horses using the Parelli programme has been the best personal development training I have had.* 
why can't they keep their instructors in any country in the world?  
*All I can say is that the instructors I use have been so for many years.* 
Why are there LESS Parelli instructors now than at any other time in their history?  
*Are there, what are the numbers?* 
There's something seriously wrong with that organisation - it's NOT the horsemanship, it's the PEOPLE! 

[/ QUOTE ] 
*This may be the nub of the issue. It is a business and there will be conflict between business objectives and horsemanship objectives. I do wonder about some business issues but the bottom line is that the product is good for me so I am happy to support the business by giving them my custom.*


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## Enfys (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[

Your just jealous! At least WE listen to horses. Oh and if you don't listen to the horse it will start playing up as they will hate you and don't want to be with you! 

[/ QUOTE ]


Why does there have to be a "We" and a "You" ?  

I think it is this attitude that gets everyone's backs up, as well as the apparent need to defend Parelli. If a product (wrapped up however you like) is as good as it is claimed it doesn't need people clucking about it like a broody hen with chicks.

Being told, over and over again, how wonderful something is, and therefore because I am not doing it, how wrong I apparently am really gets my goat. It is like having a Jehovahs's Witness at the door, they are still talking as you shut the door in their face.


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## kellybeau (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Why does there have to be a "We" and a "You" ?  

I think it is this attitude that gets everyone's backs up, as well as the apparent need to defend Parelli. If a product (wrapped up however you like) is as good as it is claimed it doesn't need people clucking about it like a broody hen with chicks.

Being told, over and over again, how wonderful something is, and therefore because I am not doing it, how wrong I apparently am really gets my goat. It is like having a Jehovahs's Witness at the door, they are still talking as you shut the door in their face. 

[/ QUOTE ]
The 'we and you' problem appears to manifest more with the critics of PNH rather than the students. If a person doesn't agree with the structure of the programme, the simple solution for them would be not to follow it.

Surely anyone who follows an interest with passion (whether it be PNH, foxhunting, horseracing etc) will defend it against criticism - I know I certainly will!!

It would be intersting to read where and by whom you've been told over and over again that your wrong for not following PNH.....it certainly wouldn't have been by PP or any of his instructors!!!!!


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## RCAWilson (19 May 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bHDwVVo7n4

These horses look very happy and content to me, not stressed in the slightest. I'd find it hard to believe they are subjected to, I quote, 'harsh' or 'extreme' treatment, that being what a couple people said of Parelli. And just to clarify, I'm not saying you can only achieve this kind of trust and harmony by doing Parelli, because of course there are naturally gifted or very lucky taught horsemen who have'nt needed it, although they are'nt common!


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## Rambo (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bHDwVVo7n4

These horses look very happy and content to me, not stressed in the slightest. I'd find it hard to believe they are subjected to, I quote, 'harsh' or 'extreme' treatment, that being what a couple people said of Parelli. And just to clarify, I'm not saying you can only achieve this kind of trust and harmony by doing Parelli, because of course there are naturally gifted or very lucky taught horsemen who have'nt needed it, although they are'nt common! 

[/ QUOTE ]

WOT !

No Hat


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## PapaFrita (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Your just jealous! At least WE listen to horses. Oh and if you don't listen to the horse it will start playing up as they will hate you and don't want to be with you! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Excuse me?? Why do you assume that our horses play up?? My horse is very well behaved and a wonderful, willing ride. And I didn't achieve it with a carrot stick. Why is Parelli the only 'right' way? The only way to 'listen' to a horse? How arrogant!!

[ QUOTE ]
Why does there have to be a "We" and a "You" ?  

Being told, over and over again, how wonderful something is, and therefore because I am not doing it, how wrong I apparently am really gets my goat. It is like having a Jehovahs's Witness at the door, they are still talking as you shut the door in their face. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Too bloody right! I'm sick of hearing that my horse must be depressed/angry/hate me because I don't train her using Parelli techniques... Or do I?? I use common sense which is apparently FAR to simple an explanation for the 'miracle' that is Parelli.
I think they're more like Scientologists, personally!


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## RCAWilson (19 May 2007)

Yes, many people ride without hats.
What did you think of the video?
It would be nice to hear what those who don't practise natural horsemanship think.


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## Rambo (19 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, many people ride without hats.
What did you think of the video?
It would be nice to hear what those who don't practise natural horsemanship think. 

[/ QUOTE ]

It was my (seemingly failed) attempt at humour...sorry 
	
	
		
		
	


	





To be honest, i have no strong opinions on the video either way. I have seen 'ordinary' people riding and jumping horses without tack, and i have seen horses performing tricks in the circus too. I personally wouldn't ride either of mine without because (a) i don't have a death wish and (b) it would serve no purpose to me whatsover in relation to what i want to do with my horses. I believe the BSJA closed the loophole whereby you could jump a horse 'under rules' without a saddle quite recently so i'm safe in my Stubben for now....

I guess what i'm saying is, good luck to you if it's your 'thing' but don't assume that everybody 'needs' to be a part of it


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## Skhosu (19 May 2007)

tbhm I'm not all that impressed by riding tackless, and I think it can create problems such as pressue (bareback) and whilst I can wuite happily trundle around without bridle, and have done, for a horse to work correctly I am happy to use my bridle (bad me..bad me...) and bitless (surely not?) bridle depending on what works.
It's a stunt, done to impress but not very useful!


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## Skhosu (19 May 2007)

actually..just watched the video to the end and we have:
tack on when leading horse....I have no objection but for the purpose the video is used for...
and lungeing a horse in a very small circle..not good for the horse I don't think (and there appeared to be a whip involved...)
nothing special. sorry


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## RCAWilson (20 May 2007)

Ok, thanks for the opinions.
Could I just clarify that it's not about the tack, not having this on or that on or being bridleless. I wanted for you to see passed that and look at WHY and HOW she is doing what she is with her horse. No comments about her horse at what we call Liberty, no lines attached. She is not doing this stuff to prove to those watching what she can do, she is doing it to test herself and her relationship with her horse, not showing off, just having fun with the great friend she has. 

Is this really 'nothing special'??

As for the 'lunging', this is not actually lunging, in the sense that she is nagging her horse around on a circle for 20 mins purely for the sake of the horse's physical development. The closest thing we do to this is called 'the circling game', and though is looks similar, it's not, and is used primarily for the mental (the relationship between horse and human), not physical development of the horse. 30 seconds (if that!) on a small (and not forced) circle is better than 10-15 mins on a 15 metre circle at the trot or canter, of course you must take into account the physical fitness of the horse and all are individual.


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## ThomasTank (20 May 2007)

Personally, I am finding this all very interesting, although I havent read the whole thread.
I just keep popping in from time to time to have a nose poke


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## Skhosu (20 May 2007)

yes... it is lungeing! It is also a snapshot so you have no idea how long it is...
but you say that's not the point, and then say it shows it with 'no lines' etc. so what about with tack as I presume that comes under lines.
And yes, nothing special. I can ride without tack. I rarely do as bareback I feel is causing more pressue and bridleless, no point!
I tbh see a well trained horse and yes, a decent rider. 
Why she is doing it-I would imagine because she is doing it
How-she has trained her horse.
Same as your break a youngster and train it to do a job.
You can get perfectly same results (not sure how to put that) without parelli.


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## lizgarland (20 May 2007)

Parelli is so much more than just common sense.  It is the building of trust and confidence between horse and rider.  It builts a relationship with a horse that you dreamt about when you were a kid and somehow lost along the way.  It brings this back to you, that closeness that you know what he is thinking and feeling just by looking at him.  It is putting your relationship with your horse first before anything else because that is what is important.  It is when your horse wants to be with you because he actually likes you and because of the trust and confience built up he will do anything for you, he is smarter, braver and so tuned into you that it blows your mind.  That is Parelli - thanks to Pat and Linda


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## gemmah (20 May 2007)

Wow tiga your horse is stunning! Def doesn't look bored 2 me! kudu that wasn't aimed at u btw, just there were a few negative posts at the begining of the thread re fluidity and position etc and I am aware that all the 'freestyle' riding has caused quite alot of controversy in the past, Don't know if those guys are still reading, just didn't want all that being a new point for agro. As ruth said shouldn't really be any difference if u already have a good relationship with your horse which by the sounds of it you do kudu and so do many other people who don't practice 'natural' methods. I don't think any of this should really be an issue it seems so silly! If your horse is happy who cares, and if he isn't and you have found a way to make him so, who cares what that is either so long as it works!! LOL


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## Taboo1968 (20 May 2007)

Sorry - there is far too much quoted here for a PM or email.... so I shall give my thoughts in appropriate areas!  
[ QUOTE ]
So, I guess, you get these results from your common sense,
your horse runs to you from the field when he sees you at the gate, he is as light and responsive as you could possibly want- on the ground and on his back, your horse is always tuned into you? Your horse is free, no rope attached and he follows you around running, walking, turning and stopping, mirroring you, he asks you questions? He has total confidence and trust in you, your horse sees you as a fun human, yes? You play with your horse. He is completely respectful of your space, as you are of his.

*Ummmm yep, mine come running to me everytime they see me at the gate.... and yes mine follow me around in walk trot and canter, totally free from ropes etc etc.* *In fact there was not one parelli horse on my old yard that came running when they saw their owner!!!* 


 Why do 'traditional' horse riders not have this relationship with their horses? When they have this 'common sense'? Oh wait, they do! Yes.... It's just not always used?? Maybe not everyone knows this common sense stuff?

*I'm a traditional rider and have this relationship with all my horses!  Does this mean I have common sense and am actually using it?* 

Of course, this common sense is so simple, who needs Pat Parelli tell you this?

*You said it!!!* 



[/ QUOTE ]

Common sense to me is not continously loading your horse in and out a trailer for three hours, leading to the horse tanking off across the paddock and the owner saying its being naughty!!!  Ah no, use your common sense, said horse is that fed up with being sent in and out of trailer like a jack in the box, it is trying to tell you its had enough!

Common sense to me is not paying out all that money to have an award for riding your horse bareback - I used to do this when I was 12, headcollar, rope attached and jump on in field and ride pony into yard!!!!

And quite frankly I agree with many of the statements made - Parelli is for those that are too scared to get on and ride their horses!

ETA: In reference to the lunging comment about nagging the horse on a circle - why is it I can lunge whilst other people are lunging and say the commands and the other horse being lunged at the other end of the school will follow those commands as well!


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## RuthR (20 May 2007)

Can I just say something about why we ride bareback and bridleless (well, I still need a rope hackemore...but why other people do it   
	
	
		
		
	


	




)

It is simply a test - a test of how good your communication is.  We call this type of riding freestyle riding and freestyle leads onto finesse - riding with a saddle and bridel with short reins.  Freestyle riding is also built upon the groundwork - on-line and liberty.

Freestyle riding is about making sure your horse knows his responsibilities - look where your going, don't change gait, don't change direction.  It helps teach him about self-carriage and impulsion (in Parelli we define implusion as when whoa=go).  It also helps you maintain your responsibilites of being a balanced rider with an independant seat and using the power of focus (how many times have you seen in traditional lessons the instructor shouting 'look where your going!'?   
	
	
		
		
	


	




 )

Riding bareback tests how good your seat is, riding bridleless tests how good your communication is.  Its means that when you put a bridle with a bit on your horse you won't be pulling on that horses mouth for control because that will come through your seat and your body as a whole and you wouldn't be balancing yourself on the reins.  The bit will only be used for highly refined communication.

So, bareback and brideless isn't where the journey stops...its just a test to see if you are truely ready to move on.


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## Taboo1968 (20 May 2007)

And another way of getting another wad of cash for the next level!


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## Mid (20 May 2007)

I could get up on any of mine, no tack, and ride them around their field. But I honestly see no point in it. It doesn't prove that we have a bond, it just shows how my horse is willing to please.

I love my horse as he is, and he loves me, in the sense that he trusts me completely, and I spend hours grooming him while he arranges my hair, and he shares his dinner with me... And he's quite a greedy little horse! I'm not gifted or talented, and I certainly didn't spend hundreds of pounds on gadgets. He's ridden in a french link snaffle, which is softer then an egbutt, and I don't use it at all, it's just so that I can look after him if he gets scared (he was from a dealer, and judging by his reactions, he'd never been turned out before, so hacking was completely new) he responds to voice, I can bring him back from a gallop just by shifting my weight... 

You see, we have a bond. Perhaps Parelli creates a bond for some people, but all I've seen is dependance from the horse. 100% dependence, for those at level 3, which I can't think is particularily good for the horse. I like mine as individuals. They all follow me around, but they also enjoy playing proper games with their friends.

I'll show you a vid of me and the smallest pony, doing bareback and following and things like that, if I can find someone who can work my camera (this is the reason there are no pics of me riding, but plenty of sisters and things). 

Sorry for that VERY long post 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Perhaps I'll give parelli a go, if I ever have a laidback horse who won't get upset, I don't want to risk it with any of mine. I did a bit with Jayjay, but he just got bored and wandered off.


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## Mid (20 May 2007)

But look at this video:

HERE 

Parelli himself, about halfway through, see him pounding the horses chest with his heels to make it go backwards? I'm sure any of mine would back up if I did that! Also, for nearly the whole video, the horses ears were pinned right back.


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## Rachel_M (20 May 2007)

Which video sorry?


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## Mid (20 May 2007)

Edited because I forgot to add it! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 -is dumb-


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## Rachel_M (20 May 2007)

Thank you!


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## Mid (20 May 2007)

You're welcome


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## Rachel_M (20 May 2007)

As I read through the post I have become more open to the Idea of Parrelli ( but definitely not the gadgets they charge for) but the basic fundamental they are trying to achieve.

However, just watching that video- The horse does not seem to be enjoying it, in fact rather uncomfortable to watch and as Deadpan say- if I did that I am sure that most horses would back up or spin away as the horse in the video attempted to do there- that's what a horse does when frightened or confused.


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## Mid (20 May 2007)

I think Monty Robert's joinup makes more sense. I've seen my horses do it in the field, and it's all explained in his book, which I got for 90p from a charity shop. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 There are no bizarre gadgets involved, and although I wouldn't use it to "start" a horse, I would like to try it sometime. It's far more natural then Parelli, and seems to create trust more then PNH too.


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## jinglejoys (20 May 2007)

Beginner here and a Mule owner which is what I am told Parelli developed his training for.
  "What you see on the ground is what you get in the saddle" and at present what I see on the ground is certainly not what I'd like to experiance in the saddle! 
	
	
		
		
	


	










   Join up is great for a flight animal like a horse but Mules are fight animals and it doesn't work well. 






The Parelli method works much better on them.
  Yes I'm one of those middle aged ladies but the reason I don't want to get on him is I don't want to ruin him by doing it for bravado when we aren't ready--so I'll stay on the ground,play safe and when the time comes I'll get on him (Nobody else wants to!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




)
   I hope at the end to have a reliable animal I can handle.I'm sorry if this doesn't agree with the "experts" but there aren't any mule trainers in this country.


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## Mid (20 May 2007)

Mules are awesome, good luck


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## jinglejoys (20 May 2007)

Thanks Deadpan--I'm needing it Bless him!He'll be worth it in the long run


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## nuzicanuz (20 May 2007)

Parelli is 'horse sense' and alot of folks do not have it.  I wanted horses all my life and finally purchased an eight year old mare when I was 47.  She new right away I did not have horse sense and I thought "this is my friend Flicka?".  I invested $16 in Parelli's "natural Horsemanship book". learned to make my own rope halter, and the other tools that "natural horsemen' use.  Now I have two horses that I ride in just a rope hackamore, they run to the gate to meet me, they enter the trailer when I send them in.........the journey has been fun.  All the information the Parelli's present is out there with other clinicians, the way the Parelli's have packaged it has made the difference. <font color="blue">  </font>


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## Jackie111 (20 May 2007)

Been there and done that. Took up Parelli for something different. Love it. Can't go back to the 'old ways'. You reassess the horse/human relationship and move into a whole other sphere. You can give up going to the saddlery. I do not need any gear.  My horse does everything at liberty - moving about the property, trail riding, getting on the float, playing at the beach. Currently we can do advanced dressage moves in a halter and now we are starting them at liberty. My horse &amp; I are nothing special, anyone can do this through the Parelli program.


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## gemmah (20 May 2007)

To everyone who is saying that they can already ride (if they wished) with no bridle and no saddle and that they have a great relationship with their horses, what's the arguement then?? You obviously have the skills needed to develop a good partnership already, I don't understand why everyone is getting all defensive? I have read a few posts on here from phn poeple which I feel have been quite judgmental and in some cases just plain rude, but it can be said for the other way to! If you have no problems then these comments obviously don't apply to you, but I'm sure we all see things, natural, normal, alien, whatever where things are just not working and it is in those cases that maybe something different might work better. On bridleless riding as said b4 its not about showing off or being able to do something pointless, it's just to see if the horse is 'mentally with you' if he is, gr8, if not it's your choice if you change that or not. Not so long ago in the back of H&amp;H where the pic and story is, there was a fabulous pic of a chap (sorry, in ignorence can't recall who it was) jumping a showjumping course with no bridle and I'm quite sure he had not heard of Parelli! Just a true horseman! Also a time when bridleless could have helped was the report where during x-country a competitors bridle broke and came off and said rider ended up with a few not very nice injuries. It's kind of like wearing your seatbelt. 99 times from 100 you won't need it, don't use it and probably hardly know it's there! but that 1 time it might just come in handy!
Just in response re the fit TB who gets strong x-country, of course if he is stong it doesn't mean he's unhappy! It sounds like he just looses his connection with you a bit and tunes more into the atmoshere and adrenalin of it all. And no thats NOT a critisism b4 anyone starts. The 'correctional' bits I refer to really is anything where you have the bit because you can't stop, steer, get the head up/down etc etc with out it!  Any bit really can be used like that, but I just see so many on the market these days promising magical, shiny quick fixes (at ridiculous prices i may add) fror all your riding problems. If you use your bit to communicate then great if not then there's the problem, but please don't say it doesn't happen 'cos I see it all the time. As I've said so many times tho and it tends to just be skipped over by both sides, it's not about Parelli or not Parelli, or natural or normal!!! It's just GOOD HORSEMANSHIP !! If u have it gr8! If u don't then u might want to think about learning it some way. But for anyone to say a person who doesn't do parelli must have an unhappy horse that hates them and misbeaves is just rediculous and extremely rude, just as it is equally rude to say all pnh poeple are emotionally unstable clones who are too scared to ride! Right, Im off to RIDE my horse now! LOL


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## Lulah (20 May 2007)

I can appreciate that for many PNH enthusiasts, going through the levels has improved their relationships with their horses, whether they would have been able to do it a different way is irrelevant for it is up to each of us to choose a route that works for us.

I can also appreciate that when the 7 games are done in an intelligent and thoughtful way that they can help owners to learn about boundaries and having control of their equine in that they can move him forward and back, sideways, up and down. Therefore improving confidence and meaning the horse and human have a new level of interaction and a basis on the ground forming a foundation from which one begins the ridden work. That may be something that many of those drawn to Natural Horsemanship have never experienced before and thus you can understand their keeness to involve other people in what they consider a life changing event for themselves and their horses.

What I feel is important is whether those who decide to take PNH as their only route to horsemanship understand that there maybe flaws in the system that can be detrimental to the horses health and soundness, for example.....

Consider the impact of repetitive disengaging of the hind end on the horses joints.

Ask your self whether it is helpful to hand over complete responsibility to the horse for not only carrying himself but also the additional weight of the rider in a loose, disengaged, disconnected way that forces him to dive down on to the forehand and pull him self and the rider along. If you ride in this way how have you thought of the potential consequences on the long term soundness of your horse?

Does having the bit hanging around the horses front teeth and riding without a contact really help teach both horse and rider the feel of a consistent, elastic and supportive connection?

Think about whether sitting in the back of the saddle so that the riders weight is concentrated over the weakest part of the horses back will encourage him to lift his back and allow him to engage the hindquarter or will it depress the horses back so that it drops and becomes weaker?

If a human aims to sit with a rounded lower back and slumped posture what effect does this have on spinal health? 

Have those that partake in this style of riding asked these questions of experts in both equine and human movement who may know the answers?

If you have an understanding of how the horses health and soundness can be affected by the above and still choose to do these activities then you have made an informed decison, and your priority may be that you can ride your horse bareback, with no bridle, that you play the games and do the exercises through the levels and you may be very happy with the results.  That is a personal choice but I do think there needs to be an honesty about the limitations from the point of view of the horses physical development and a respect to people who may consider long term health, soundness and performance as a higher priority.   

There is nothing kind or natural about riding a horse in a way that causes damage, in my mind it is both direspectful and abusive which as far as I understand are two of the very things that PNH claims so called "Un Natural training" is about.


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## Castlecourtdaisy (20 May 2007)

Just to say, Monty Robert's Dually halter is more expensive than the Parelli halter, unless something has changed since I bought mine those years ago?

And broken down, I think you'll find that join-up is basically a way of getting your horse to think "looking/going towards the predator = release of pressure" (rather than "oh my god, I understand now!!! That two legged predator is really a horse in disguise!! I must follow him!) which I think you'll find is actually similar to what's used in the parelli catching game, and parelli use a greater variety of things in their training.

But anyway, in general, parelli is just a different way of doing things. If so many of you have good relationships with your horses without this, then that's great! Just because you don't wave an orange stick in your horse's face doesn't mean a parelli fan like myself is going to think you can't possibly have a positive relationship with your horse (and those that do think that are a bit brainwashed in my opinion). Doing parelli games and such are just things that happen to work for me. And for the record, I've tried and I can still acheive results with my horse with a regular headcollar and schooling whip, a lunging cavesson, or nothing at all. I'd hate to have to rely on one particular piece of equipment!


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## Skhosu (20 May 2007)

oh dear, that video really shows why I don't like parelli. In it I can see him hit the horse with the stick on the face, and the horses head is up, it does not look happy (as it should do according to others) and it look sto me like a horse who is doing what its told out  of fear rather than any heightened connection. any parelli people care to defend that video?


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## CASP3R (20 May 2007)

Ray Hunt ( an inspiration to many, including Pat ) never agreed to have any of his demos recorded, as clips get posted and quotes can be made that are out of context. This is not a specific defence of the video clip only a suggestion that people will see what they want to see.

Many horsemen advocate being as light as possible but as firm as necessary, Pat is no different. The video quality is poor and it is hard to see what cues Pat was using before waving his legs / stick.


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## Rachel_M (20 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 The video quality is poor and it is hard to see what cues Pat was using before waving his legs / stick. 

[/ QUOTE ]


But being so connected to his horse the fact he still needs to wave his stick and legs in that severe a way does worry me.

To be honest, I don't see anything anymore that cannot be just done as well with English tack and good riding.


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## gemmah (20 May 2007)

Horay!!! Congratulations Titania!! Finanlly some one who has come on tho the board and made some sensible informed comments on the subject!! I totally agree with the comments on how damaging continuous work in freestlye can potentially be on the horse. The problem is that as the program is designed to teach the human, it is often the case that while learning it takes a long time for the human to reach a point where they can obtain the skills to cause the horse to work correctly. Once students reach the higher levels this part of the horses development takes a relatively short time and the rider is able to teach the horse engagement and self carriage as soon as he is ready as they have already developed their own skills. It is then possible, in time, to ride the horse in an engaged manner still with a loose contact. Think western reining etc that sort of thing. There is also the piont of getting the horse mentally and emotionally engaged b4 asking for physical engagement, and again it is the development of the rider that delays this, as the better you are the quicker you have the horse properly prepared. 
I think the whole rider position thing has been blown out of all proportion though. When you watch the video demo's it does look very extreme and even quite strange as everything is hugely exaggerated in order to get the point accross. In it's final form the seat position is simply a slight rotation of the pelvis back to simply sitting more like a man (they do have to sit more like this than women for obvious reasons! lol!) It isn't a huge shift back to an armchair seat or anything like that. All the other bits of fluidity are simply aimed at helping the rider not to brace on the stirrups or against the movement and again once refined should be barely noticable.
The bit, whilst it is fitted low, will usually be held by the horse where it is most comfortable for him and again trial and error will show what each individual finds most comfortable and effective. I have seen problems with horses too much on the forehand many times and indeed have had to rectify it in my own horse. I am fortunate enough to have experience accross the board though in riding many horses in different ways and can call on this to make sure I strike a balance between the two extremes. I agree that it is something that does need to be addressed, if anyone is interested Equine Ethology have made some progress in this area. However, once again it is in the application of the programme rather than the programme itself.
For every one that watched the vid, I can't get it to stream properly but i think i know what you have seen. If anyone wants me to expain it I will try but my posts seem to be way2 long already and it wld take ages! lol. If not you can get some idea by getting your hands on any of the levels packs or for free you can google 'horse and country TV' and on their equestrian page there are about 13 short episodes of a Parelli tv program. Not sure how much any of you would enjoy them, but they are there and they are FREE!!
Cheers again titania for the intelligent comments, I would be interested to hear more from you as the freestlye/physical development thing is something I have been considering for a while and in what ways it might be possible to speed up this part of the learning process.  With the seat thing there is a gr8 simulation you can do to feel what we are aiming for. If anyone wants to try it i'll tell u but be warned, u look pretty silly when you try it!! LOL.


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## CASP3R (20 May 2007)

I must have missed the bit of the video that says it's Pats horse ?

I agree with you good riding is good riding be it English, Spanish, Western, Cossack, Bare Back, Bridleless .....


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## Rachel_M (20 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I must have missed the bit of the video that says it's Pats horse ?


[/ QUOTE ]

If it is not his horse then why would you be willing to use any form or stick or heavy handedness when you are just getting to know a horse, wouldn't that be the opposite of what you are trying to achieve?


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## gemmah (20 May 2007)

Good call CASP3R. I think Ray has the right idea!


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## CASP3R (20 May 2007)

Hypothetically speaking if a strangers horse stood on your foot what would you do ?

Whisper sweet nothings, ask it politely to move, shout at it or thump it ?

I don't think it matters that the horse in the video is strange the point is - being as firm as necessary. You need to find a way of being effective otherwise the horse will ignore you. Pat has his way and no doubt you have yours. But always use politeness first.

For all we know this is an afternoon session and Pat already did his hellos in the morning.

P.S. In the above scenario I would prefer to move my foot before it got stood on and then ask the horse not to move into my space.


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## Rachel_M (20 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Hypothetically speaking if a strangers horse stood on your foot what would you do ?


[/ QUOTE ]

Quite a difference in the scenario to try and compare the two.


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## gemmah (20 May 2007)

miss-huggy-bear you will find answers to most of your questions in the new level one pack. don't know where u r based but if you are interested I'm sure there would be a local pnh that would lend you one. It is so hard to see on poor quality vids when there is no voice over to explain what is happening. I've also found, strange as it may sound, that super nanny on channel 4 has some very similar principles when working with children (not the carrot stick bit obviously! LOL!)


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## CASP3R (20 May 2007)

True, but the point I was trying to make is maybe Pat needed to wave his feet and stick as an effective means to get the horse to move after trying more polite methods like shifting his weight, squeezing with his legs, clucking ???

The next time or next day he may not need to back up his 'ask' with anything else.


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## Rachel_M (20 May 2007)

I might take you up on that. 
	
	
		
		
	


	






I am open to things that help me be a better rider but I do believe that you still can compete, ride with "normal" tack and do without some of the "equipment" that is marketed and be closer to your horse.


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## CASP3R (20 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 I do believe that you still can compete, ride with "normal" tack and do without some of the "equipment" that is marketed and be closer to your horse. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and do compete in normal tack (normal to me is a Western saddle!!)

Some people just need a little more guidance than others, and are unable to find that guidance closer to home.


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## Rachel_M (20 May 2007)

Let me rephrase then- I should be able to use English Style Tack and Saddlery and still be able to be close to my horse.


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## CASP3R (20 May 2007)

I was just defining normal  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 - I happen to enjoy Western riding, but i do also own and ride in an English saddle occasionally


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## gemmah (20 May 2007)

Absolutely, I totaly agree. Like I always say, good horsemanship is good horsemanship! 
In a condensed form it is basically eg: If you were standing in front of me and i wanted you to move (assuming i cant just ask you or motion you to) i start to gently tap your shoulder. If you dont move then i will tap gradually harder and harder until you make some sort of effort. Then i will stop. The KEY thing is, if you have moved, i will tap the space that you WERE in, not where you are now. Effectively helping you to realise that it is your responsibility to move and i'm not actually 'hitting' you, just that space. A bit like if i were swinging a rope round my head and you walked into it. Not my fault. But if i just walked over to you and thonked you with the rope,my fault. The horse must always have the option to get away from the stimulus/pressure he just has to work out how. When you quit as he does the right thing, that's when he learns.
The face pulling head up, evasion etc (oops this isn't going to be brief is it! LOL) If you have always done something a certain way when someone challenges that you will resist and throw up all sorts of questions to get them to prove that what you are being asked to do is safe and right (esp if u r a horse) If dealing with a dominant horse he will test and retaliate when you speak in his language as you are effectively asking to take the leadership role from him, and obviously he will want you to prove you are worthy! If on the other hand the horse is affraid, he will do similar things (diffrnt tension in his body and faster) as if he allows you to be the leader he is, in his eyes, putting his life in your hands. Obviously he's going to throw up some potentially big questions before he is happy to do this. I hope this is of use to you miss-huggy-bear. I really am trying to bring some balanced views in here and I hope that may go some way to answering your q's. There is more to it than that but that's the general idea! LOL


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## Tinypony (20 May 2007)

Parelli threads always get some heated debates going!  
I just wanted to say, NH doesn't equal Parelli.  I know a lot of people now dismiss NH training because of their experiences of Parelli and with Parelli students.  If you get the chance to see another NH practitioner in action, and it doesn't break the bank, I'd urge you to go and have a look.  They can be very different, they are not all about bareback and bridleless, 7 games and 4 phases.  Some are much more closely linked to the day to day things that we enjoy with our horses.
Not saying you aren't doing fine already, but I personally always find it interesting to see if there is another technique or idea I can pick up to help myself and my horses - whatever label may be attached to it.


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## joeathh (20 May 2007)

I went to see a demo with some free tickets for parelli and left half way through.  It looked a bit like circus to me - I saw Mary Chipperfield using subtle changes in her body position to get her horse doing far more entertaining things.

Sorry Parelli not for me and agree Stoneleigh seems to 'approve' the training.


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## ShirlJean (20 May 2007)

Sounds like Weezy and several others don't actually know very much about what Parelli is really about and are "very" threatened by it.  Fellow competitors thought I was "wrong" to start following the program many years ago, but I have never looked back and my horses love and respect me for it.  I am one of the "new" users on this forum....I got the address off of the Parelli Savvy Club email.  I am not surprised at the angry comments, people often feel threatened when asked to change and don't have enough information to make an informed decision.  One of my favorite Parelli-isms is "don't be out collecting assets (trophies and ribbons) when your horse thinks you're an ass".  Look in the eyes of most show horses and realize what they are telling you.


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## Kate_13 (20 May 2007)

Oh I feel so threatened. LMFAO!!!!!


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## Tinypony (20 May 2007)

See?  Geez, I'm an NH person and even I feel patronised.  People here (not me) have competition horses and do well with them, so your post insinuates that their horses aren't happy and "thinks they are an ass".  Look, maybe your horses were like that before Parelli, but you can't generalise that all competition horses are in that situation, and to do so alienates people.
This just illustrates to me why so many people get turned off Parelli without getting beyond the fancy demos with loud music and the fanatical students.  
It isn't all like this.  I'm thinking of a demo that I saw when I was in Australia.  Local natural horsemanship style trainer was at the equivalent of the county show.  He did 3 short demos, and in the last one he put on his cowboy hat, saddled up his best horse, and gave a lovely demo of soft and beautiful riding.  His horse worked long and low, then was picked up into a great outline, then went long and low, he did lateral work, piaffe and western spins.  And it was all nice, calm and understated, in an electric tape pen rigged up off the side of his trailer.  At the end there were dressage people queueing up to speak to him, because they wanted to know how.  
I'm just saying, NH is sooo much more than Parelli, and I believe good NH style trainers have a lot to offer.  They are easy to miss, but there are others visiting the UK that you could see, it might be worth it.


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## CASP3R (20 May 2007)

Well said


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## Kate_13 (20 May 2007)

I have to say that some of the parelli followers have come on here and given some balanced arguments and for that I respect them.

However, what makes me laugh  and I do mean laugh lots is that most of the parelli posts have been slanderous and for people that have supposedly seen the light and become better people (as what you have said), you don't seem better people at all!!! I suggest you go read phase 69 of the manual or whatever it is!

Still LMFAO!


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## ThomasTank (20 May 2007)

Sounds like a bit of a cult to me


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## gemmah (20 May 2007)

LOL kudu! Sadly I would have to agree! Hope I havn't said nethin 2 offend ne1. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Let common sense prevail! (Yeh, in our dreams! LMFAO!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 )


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## Banana (20 May 2007)

I have had a good amount of experience with both the traditional and PNH methods of training.  If its natural horsemanship it should be natural horsemanship without the brand.  There are so many deserving horsemen and women out there. Parelli is a great marketing tool, Pat and Linda have taken information from the likes of Troy Henry, Ray Hunt, Tom and Bill Dorrance to name a few and put it into a learning format. And its great for those who want it.

As for the Parellis basing themselves at Stoneleigh, in my opinion there should be a natural (I say this a little tongue in cheek as it should really be a study of horse psychology) presence at Stoneleigh, but it should not be a Brand name. Natural horsemanship or whatever you want to call it is not a discipline but a foundation that all horseowners should have a basic knowledge of and how we come about that knowledge differs for all of us and we all know people who are more natural with horses than others and this can be seen through all the disciplines.


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## mystiandsunny (20 May 2007)

For the PNH people reading this discussion who think theirs is the only way (not for the other, sensible ones 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 ), consider that the horse will choose his/her path in life also.

For example: When my horse was turned out into a large field with a little pony, they became friends.  On leading them to and from the field each day (so I could ride and pony wasn't on her own), we established discipline (i.e. you don't kick my horse, nor do you try to eat grass or run off when I'm in charge).  Over time, pony saw that I turned up every day, and brought nice things (a kind word, fly spray).  At some point she decided she wanted to be part of my horse and I's proper herd.  She went from being bitey and horrid to sweet and nuzzly, and eventually won me over to the point where I bought her.  

My bf used to groom her and help to look after her, and she liked him.  After he had learned to ride and was more confident around horses, she decided to turn her wiles on him, and became possessive of him in a nice way, looking for him, whinnying and running to the gate when he arrived etc.  When he first sat on her she turned from a typical strong willed youngster, to a complete beginner's pony, looking after him completely.  

Where is the need for PNH there?  The relationship began because she decided it would; she chose her human and won him over.


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## Skhosu (20 May 2007)

Most show horses are not happy.. I'm assuming you refer to competition horses...so how do these riders force them to jump? To  do dressage? Because owning a 14.2hh pony who declines to do what asked regularly, I faily to see how they manage this. 
(I might add..since I did join up and taught him to bow he has become much mroe keen to compete...but still decides how much we do)


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## Tina33 (20 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
.
This just illustrates to me why so many people get turned off Parelli without getting beyond the fancy demos with loud music and the fanatical students.  
It isn't all like this.  I'm thinking of a demo that I saw when I was in Australia.  Local natural horsemanship style trainer was at the equivalent of the county show.  He did 3 short demos, and in the last one he put on his cowboy hat, saddled up his best horse, and gave a lovely demo of soft and beautiful riding.  His horse worked long and low, then was picked up into a great outline, then went long and low, he did lateral work, piaffe and western spins.  And it was all nice, calm and understated, in an electric tape pen rigged up off the side of his trailer.  At the end there were dressage people queueing up to speak to him, because they wanted to know how.  


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have just described Pat before Linda came into the picture.  Then Linda came along and turned Parelli into the marketing circus that it is today. I believe Pat's original intent was to work with elite horsemen and women.  I don't think he ever imagined he would have a following of fearful, middle-aged women with large disposable incomes.    

All one really needs to do is read Pat's original book to see what an incredible horseman he is. 

Linda is a marketing genius, but I do believe she has turned Parelli into the strange cult that it is today.   I often wonder if Pat is living his dream.  Clearly Linda is.


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## RuthR (21 May 2007)

As with everything there is a balance - there are many horses who enjoy their job but there are many others who don't for what ever reason.  

You can learn to orchestrate a horse to get it to do something - but it often results in a displaced behaviour eg tail swishing, teeth grinding, or worse the horse just goes inside itself and becomes a robot (think of a lot of riding school ponies).  If you carefully watch showjumpers or dressage riders (even at the top level) there are unhappy horses showing these behaviours - but on the other side there are horses who love their job.

Horses have their own personnalities so you will have some who are extremly forgiving and will try for you no matter what (my pony is like this) and you get others who say 'why should I?' - this was my horse!  Parelli has helped me to understand what makes this horse tick and we have created a strong bond and he is starting to offer to do things for me.  When your horse starts offering things then it makes it very easy to shape that into what you want.


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## Valeriecarol (21 May 2007)

I have studied Parelli for 2 years with my young horse. As a result she has turned into a calm, loving, willing and brave horse. The changes Parelli has made to her and to me have been fantastic. We still have lot to learn and to achieve but I know that by following the programme we will get there.  I would urge people to open their minds a little and understand more about it before dismissing it.


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## Sparklet (21 May 2007)

Hi, just for the sake of a balance argument can you give some more info on horses used in various disciplines by Parelli followers:

Which riding schools only teach Parelli?

Who are the Parelli top show-jumpers?

Who are the Parelli GP dressage riders?

And although not mentioned in your post also Parelli Event riders?

It would be really interesting to know who has been able to combine Parelli techniques and still remain at the top of their career - you would imagine that such a sucessful system would produce more than a handful of top riders?


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## gemmah (21 May 2007)

Hi PNH student again! (a propper 1). Unfortunately I feel compelled to post again (help I'm becoming a computer freak! LOL) Whilst several pnh people have posted sensible things, some of what I have seen from PNH students ( and here I do use the term losely) has been discustingly rude and completely ridiculous! To imply that other peoples horses hate, them, that they don't have a good relationship, and even that their horse thinks they are an ass, is appalling and very hurtful!! Yes, SOME competition horses DO have that look in their eyes, but by NO means ALL of them! And to make judgements such as these when it is highly unlikely that you have seen ANY of the horses belonging to people on this board, i feel, is rather offensive. And believe me, I have seen many PNH students, again term used losely, who's horses quite obviously think THEY are an ass!!
Kudu had it right when saying go back and look at page 69 of the manual! Only I can accurately direct you to a very good place to start! Try level 1 pack, theory guide, 6 keys to success. (Attitude, knowledge, tools, techniques, time and imagination) Namely 1 ATTITUDE. quite obviously in some of you it needs MASSIVE adjustments. And 2, KNOWLEDGE. Seek it, absorb it and USE it! From ALL sources. Some I would reccomend are Ray Hunt (the legend!) Tom and Bill Dorrance, Buck Branaman, Mark Rashid, Ronnie Willis, Monty Roberts, Kelly Marks, Equine Ethology, Carl Hester, Tim Stockdale, Pippa Funnell, John Whittaker. The list goes on! And of course, but not only, Pat and Linda Parelli. There is so much knowledge to be gained, even if it is not something you chose to apply, and to close yor mind to that is only going to be detimental to yourselves and your horses!
Going back to Parelli though, are we not taught that the results we get from our horses are directly in relation to what we do or don't do with them and our level of 'savvy'? In Linda's words, 'our horse is our mirror' and that this also applies to our human relationships too? Does it not bother you then that people refer to PNH students as 'clones' 'a cult' or 'like scientologists' to name but a few?!! Surely, to paraphrase Linda you would 'step back, and think hmmm, how interesting, I wonder what I did to cause that response/reaction!' I am affraid that to me, the answer is horribly obvious.
I have found PNH to be a fantastic programme. I chose it as it is easy to access and understand, and has a wealth of knowledge and info. to share. It is NOT, however, hugely different to what other horsemen do (just better explained perhaps) It is NOT anything new (As Pat will tell you himself!) and it is certainly NOT the only way! I only hope that anyone who may have been slightly interested has not been put off such a great programme because of the poor representation given by a few narrow minded followers,  and that they will seek out, and find, the the TRUE concepts and methods behind the commercialised label that is PARELLI!


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## ann-jen (21 May 2007)

I think, but could be wrong, that David and Karen O'Connor do Parelli.


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## RuthR (21 May 2007)

Hi,

Dressage Riders = Walter Zettl and Luis Lucio http://www.walterzettl.net/pages/news.html http://www.luislucio.com/english/doma-nat/index.htm 

Showjumpers - Luca Moneta (can't find an english website for him as he is Italian!)

Event Riders - Karen and David O'Connor were very good friends with the Parellis and did several demos with them a few years ago but they have since parted.  Mainly I think because the O'Connors wanted to put 'Parelli' into their own form.  As far as know it was an amicable split (I don't know the ins and outs of it all...nor do I want to).

Craig Johnston (US Reining Champion) is also very good friends with Pat and Linda.

Also on the dressage front check out:  http://www.dressagenaturally.net/  Karen Rohlf was a top dressage rider who has since become a Parelli Associate instructor - she combines Parelli teaching with dressage training with great sucess.

I hope that is the sort of thing you are looking for.


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## Sparklet (21 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

Dressage Riders = Walter Zettl and Luis Lucio http://www.walterzettl.net/pages/news.html http://www.luislucio.com/english/doma-nat/index.htm 

Showjumpers - Luca Moneta (can't find an english website for him as he is Italian!)

Event Riders - Karen and David O'Connor were very good friends with the Parellis and did several demos with them a few years ago but they have since parted.  Mainly I think because the O'Connors wanted to put 'Parelli' into their own form.  As far as know it was an amicable split (I don't know the ins and outs of it all...nor do I want to).

Craig Johnston (US Reining Champion) is also very good friends with Pat and Linda.

Also on the dressage front check out:  http://www.dressagenaturally.net/  Karen Rohlf was a top dressage rider who has since become a Parelli Associate instructor - she combines Parelli teaching with dressage training with great sucess.

I hope that is the sort of thing you are looking for. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting links however things are never quite as clear as they seem:

Walter Zettl's only reference to Parelli on his web site is an open letter he wrote about Pat and Linda Parelli after they had invited him to  *instruct* them, describing them as wonderful  *students*.

Luis Lucio acknowledges the Parelli's as friends and recommends their methods, however he does not state that he uses the method to any greater degree than he uses the help given to him by Anky.  It is not clear if he uses the technique in competative riding.

Karen Rohlf was successful before he discovered Parelli and again there is no evidence of her continuing in competition since she changed career to that of Parelli trainer.

David and Karen O'Conner have abandoned the Parelli methods preferring their own.

I am astonished that there are so few riders.  I'm not knocking Parelli techniques but your earlier post did comment in the swishing tail and grinding teeth in the dressage horse, however Parelli does not really come up with any alternatives other than to cease doing dressage.  I would love to see a Parelli afficionardo who has been able to produce a sucessful dressage horse (obviously the non teeth grinding/tail swishing variety).


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## Sparklet (21 May 2007)

duplicate post deleted


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## RuthR (21 May 2007)

I must disagree on some points you mentioned.  Luis Lucio's horse Titanic was started by a Pareli professional and has Luis has started competing him.  

"The five years old spanish breed stallion owned by Alvaro Domecq "Titanic", finished 4th in the Final of 5 yeras old horses in this important International Dressage meeting that held three International dressage competitions in south of Spain.

Titanic was doing its first show in Montenmedio and the progression of marks were quite interesting.
After showing its strong stallion caracther, 40% in the first test, "Titanic" improved till the end getting the 4th position in the Final of the 5 years old horses.

Marietta Whitages , IO Judge in the finals, said: 
"..Titanic was the best horse saw in the class and needed more experience in competitions to get the top standart of marks we are waiting in the futur..."

"Titanic" is a interesting project runned by Pat &amp; Linda Parelli and Luis Lucio to get to the top International Dressage Competitions a spanish stallion trained with both methodes at the same time, Parelli Natural horsmanship and traditional Dressage training."

Taken from:  http://www.luislucio.com/english/doma/res_con.htm

It wasn't on the inital link though so my apologies for that.  The reason I posted Walter Zettl was because he is an absolute master of the art of dressage and horsemanship in general.  He's friendship with Pat and Linda is coming through in the Parelli teaching as they help their students to advance their riding skills.  The fact that he found the Parelli's so easy to teach I think also shows the worth of the foundation the Parelli system can give you and your horse.

Parelli, as said before, is not a discpline - it gives you a foundation to build on.  The Parelli's are not against competing - they just want people to have good horsemanship first.  They aren't dressage trainers or showjumpers or eventers - their strenghts are understanding horse behaviour and that is what they are teaching people.

I believe Karen Rohlf hasn't started competing again because she found the Parelli system so powerful she decided to teach others rather than go back to competing.


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## Sparklet (21 May 2007)

Ok a bit more info to assess.....you have identified one horse which came 5th in the 5 year old classes (out of what?) who initially got a 40% score but inproved........which the judge described as being 'the best horse saw in the class and needed more experience in competitions'.  As 5 year old classes are judged on their paces and attitude I suspect because the judge mentioned lack of experience the issue must have been the attitude which isnt exactly a grand recommedation of their training methods when viewed against traditional dressage horse training methods.

You say Parelli is not a discipline but a foundation to build upon then in an earlier post make comparisons with the swishy tail and gnashing teeth of the dressage horse suggesting that they parelli system would be a better way, however can provide no evidence to substantiate that.  You were the one that compared a discipline with the err.... 'foundation'.

Competitative riders are, shall we say, highly competative.  Its their bread and butter, they tend to be driven focussed individuals.  Believe me if Parelli could be shown to produce better results, more harmony, a better connection you would be able to list reams and reams of riders who use the sytem, however you are able to proffer two riders with claims to grandeur which are certainly up for debate.

Natual horsemanship in itself gives endless pleasure to riders who might have otherwise thrown in the towel.  It formalises handing of horses that the rest of us have been using successfully for decades in slightly different formats and give those who need a bit of help a structured system which they can use.

Sadly my personal experience has with NH advocates has been a bunch of rude bargey horses with ineffective, weak handlers who spend months trying to achive the same thing that the rest of us expect from our horses as a basic.

To be told by our resident yard Parelli 'expert' that I force my horse into the box - when in fact she strolls up the ramp day after day after day, measured against watching her for two years trying to persuade her extremely fat cob into a trailer which is clearly too narrow (why not take the partition out you idiot) without success does give me a wry smile.  She never got to the shutting the door bit.

Now I have always believed in 'each for his own' and would never have dreamt of telling that her way was not exactly working, however she used every opportunity available to 'preach' her way to any that would listen.  Sadly this seems to be the way of most converts that instead of just enjoying their discipline (see I call it one because I actually believe it is) they spout on about how cruel and unenlightened the rest of us are like a manic jehovah's witness.  So please for the sake of the cruel enlightened rest of us stop talking about it, just do it.


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## Gingernags (21 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 you will be missing a wonderful opportunity for your horses. 

[/ QUOTE ]

No - we won't.

This sums up for me what I really hate about Parelli.  Just because I don't do it or want to do it - and yes thank you I have a good understanding and have seen it in practice - does NOT mean I'm missing anything.

There is nothing wrong with my relationship woth my horse, nothing Parelli could improve.

As far as I'm concerned that should be the end of the subject - but no - you get preached at by Parelli followers that if you don't do Parelli you are wrong and evil.

No, I'm not, I just prefer my methods.

Honestly its as bad as Jehovahs Witnesses - and directly comparable sometimes! I do NOT expect other peoples religions or methods in horsemanship - to be shoved down my throat.

Everyone is welcome to their own religion/opinion/whatever - just don't preach at the  others who don't want to know.

No-one is right and wrong in this argument - just do your own thing and be happy with it, don't doorstep people and insist they convert!


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## wizzi901 (21 May 2007)

think I am just about to throw up!!!

Parelli has its place, its not for everyone, yes I have tried it and thought it was a complete waste of money.

I can achieve results i want just by offering any of my 3 carrots for good behaviour, they all do everything I ask of them.

If you want to spend your money and you gain from doing parelli then great, if you dont want to there are other ways and those ways are JUST AS good, parelli is not the be all and end all.


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## IrishCobsRule (21 May 2007)

I have been to a Parelli demonstration and sat petrified in a crowd over 2,000 people who thought he was god! To me it was like being caught up in a cult where Parelli's methods alone were acceptable and 'traditional' methods were evil. Pat Parelli himself slagged of dressage to the crowd. Ferdi Eilberg gave a dressage demonstration. The Parelli fans were however not impressed and many simply wandered off or sat there muttering while I sat with my eyes glued to the demonstration of true harmony and fluidity between horse and rider which actually made the whole trip worthwhile for me. 
My opinion from the whole experience (stress MY opinion from MY experience) was that the people attending were following Parelli to the letter as other 'traditional' routes hadn't worked for them - most of those I spoke to came to horse ownership as adults and most seemed (again MY opinion) to have been slightly duped into buying an unsuitable horse. When you sit back and look at Parelli's methods it is clear why some of the less experienced people go all in - they try some of the games and realise that for the first time they are having a better experience with their horses. 
I also met competition riders who were there for the same reasons as I was - to have a looksee and to come away with some new ideas/thoughts to mull over.
Having read through the books it is clear to me that the early stuff is really about teaching people how to read their horses body language and how to stay safe and to think about how you move around animals and the quality of the touch you use - all good sommon sense advice - which very quickly shows positive results - most of us instinctively know horses appreciate quiet calm handling and soft petting rather than big thumping whacks - but remember some people need to be taught.
Unfortunately many Parelli fans get stuck at level 2 and are happy to stay there and extoll the virtues of Parelli and slag off 'traditional' riding methods (they appear to have a particular hatred of Dressage) - not complete the programme and progress their riding and get out competing or even just happy hacking etc. They get stuck where they do because of their own lack of understanding of what 'horsemanship' is. Their criticism of 'traditional' riding/schooling methods is based on their experiences and lets be honest for every good BHS/'traditional' instructor out there we all know there are several more really crappy ones who do no-one any favours.
We all also know a great Horseman (or Horsewoman) in real life - The One that we secretly aspire to be as good as. The ones you think of and think of as 'Naturally' talented. Have you ever asked these people what their secret is? I guarantee that more often than not they'll tell you that they continue to learn every day and thay they'll only stop learning about horses the day they die. 
I think that Parelli and other 'NH' methods can be useful for teaching people to behave more 'naturally' around horses BUT we all need to be aware that:
there is no one wonder method where animals are concerned 
there is no quick fix solution to a particular problem 
labelling such methods 'Natural Horsemanship' implies that everything else is 'UN-natural which is very very wrong.
To finish (sorry this is a bit rambling) - to me a natural horseman is someone who has a natural gift - someone who has learnt their skill from from all the horses they've worked with and someone who admits that they are never finished learning.
I guess what Im really trying to say is that - none of us should nail our colours to the mast in favour of one method or another - I believe that the Parelli stuff is not for me (I find the 'fans' too scary for one!) - although through my reading, demo attending and dvd watching as with every other method I've looked at I hope I've learned something!


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## myamigo (21 May 2007)

Parelli would say that he can help anybody along the road but it helps if they're going in the same direction.

Following the Parelli methods is a way of learning in a short space of time all that Pat has taken decades to learn from other amazing horsemen.  He never declares to be any type of God, merely somebody who has a superb ability to put what he has learnt into a language that anybody willing to have an open mind can take on board.

Is the equipment expensive compared to any other hobby?  Every day I use the equipment I purchased three years ago and it is as good as new.

Take a look at the yearly work schedule that Pat and Linda manage.  There is no way that they are sitting back enjoying their profits.  If any of us could manage what they fit in to a year with the sole aim of improving our understanding of horses then we would also merit the passion and loyalty that is their due.


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## hayleyD (21 May 2007)

I belong to the '' CULT'' as some call it, and very proud to admit it. 
I believe that everyone can have their own opinion and would never try to preach to any person.
I do however get asked wow how do you get your horse to do that, my reply is ''because he wants to"
I regularly ride without a bridle or halter, have vertical and lateral flexion, perfect straight, fast back up, excellent flying changes, sideways (half pass) at all speeds and wonderfull transistions. I also do all of these with my horses on line and at liberty in the middle of my nine acre field, with no schooling area and giving the one i'm playing with the option to stay with me or leave. All you are then left with is the TRUTH. Does your horse really want to stay with you and trust your judgment?


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## ThomasTank (21 May 2007)

Blimey are you lot still going on......................


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## jacnigdrinkwater (21 May 2007)

Hi

I am new to the forum.  I would like to say that its horses for courses, excuse the pun and if some people find comfort and guidance in Parelli, then thats great whilst others clearly feel its not for them.

I am working through the Parelli program with my beautiful coloured gelding - it was love on my part anyway at first sight.  However, he clearly has many issues I have owned him for nearly a year now and the transformation in him is amazing and whilst I have plenty of common sense and have owned and ridden horse for the last 28 years - I just feel that the Parelli program gives us a structure to work with and goals (for want of a better word) to work towards.

The Parelli's truely love their horses and work only for their good and best interests.  As I said earlier I appreciate it is not for everyone just as show jumping or dressage is not for everyone but until one has looked into it throughly it is not a fair comment to dismiss it - so just give it a look you might all be surprised - I was.  I was a huge sceptic just as some of you whos posts I have read.

I cant wait for the new centre a Stoneleigh to be up and running I just hope I can save the pennies to take advantage of the courses.  It would be truely amazing if Pat and Linda could be over hear and give us some of their amazing input - who knows!!!??

To sum up GO PARELLI!!!


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## Heidi07 (21 May 2007)

Boy, some of you out there are a catty lot!!!

I posted my thread as there seemed to be so many against rather than for Parelli. 

I don't intend to keep boosting the site ratings as I would rather spend the quality time with my horses and not stuck on the internet!

Whatever path of horsemanship you choose to follow, I sincerely hope that both you and your horse(s) are happy.


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## Castlecourtdaisy (21 May 2007)

Personally I think there are lot of offensive posts on here, from both traditional and parelli people.

Clearly we all love our horses to bits and many people here care for them enough to consider options and try to please them (and no, that's not at all a defense for PNHers, that goes for most people on here. I genuinely also believe some parelli people are misguided and slightly...demented, and that there are also some people on here, using all different methods, who are just rude and pig-headed and don't deserve to be taken seriously) so isn't that enough?

Funny that it's the people who are actually well-informed about the subject are the people who are being much more constructive and balanced in their arguments, isn't it?


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## ThomasTank (21 May 2007)

I wasnt meaning to be rude. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




I am not for or against it. I was trying to make a funny comment ! . Over the last few days, I have been popping in here to have a look and the posts keep on going.

I am sitting on the fence here


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## TGM (21 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I am sitting on the fence here 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ] You must have splinters in your bum by now


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## Hanz (21 May 2007)

I much prefer Monty Roberts techniques. Bonding with the horse by using his 'language' rather than playing with them.


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## spotty_pony (21 May 2007)

I have only just noticed this post because I haven't been in the New Lounge for quite a while and so I can't be bothered tp read all 19 pages of opinions and comments on the topic so I will just give my opinion (I apologise if any of this has already been said) 

I think NH is a good idea and can be a helpful way for training certain horses, because each horse responds to different training methods. However, if it is done incorrectly, it can cause more harm than good and you can end up with a problem horse, either because you haven't been clear in what you have been training the horse to do or perhaps you have confused exercises and not achieved the required result. So although NH is now a recognisable sport, not anyone can have a go at it, they need proper training first.


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## Castlecourtdaisy (21 May 2007)

Gosh sorry I didn't mean you there! I was talking about the general comments, and at the time I started my post yours was the last post, so it just automatically said it was replying to you, if that makes sense? 

Sorry if I offended you, really wasn't aimed at you at all!!


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## cvb (21 May 2007)

It occured to me the other day that the people who "just get on with it" are the ones that won't be noticeabley "NH" (or PNH).  

I was watching two people lunging (and yes I DO mean lunging, not Circle Game). One was using a rope halter and line. Do I know what NH approach she uses, if any ? No.

So if I see a competitor at a dressage competition or event, how will I know they train using NH ? (For example, Charlotte Dennis events). I may run-of-the-mill people here, not celebrities who will be interviewed etc.

Answer is that I probably won't know. People seeing me at local dressage event won't know I also ride western, also use NH etc. They will just see a perfectly normal riding club person and horse.


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## Castlecourtdaisy (21 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

Answer is that I probably won't know. People seeing me at local dressage event won't know I also ride western, also use NH etc. They will just see a perfectly normal riding club person and horse. 

[/ QUOTE ]

^and that should really be the aim of all NH people shouldn't it? If someone has to have everything "just so" and use special equipment to have any sort of success with their horse, then they've got problems! This goes for everything from Parelli halters, to martingales, and carrot sticks to those strange expensive bits people are inventing all the time.

People who actually get on with it and get results are the people we should all strive to be, whatever method we use.


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## ThomasTank (21 May 2007)

Phew !!


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## Lottiedude (21 May 2007)

<font color="purple">  </font> It's no wonder that the British horse owning public often find Parelli to be 'not to their taste'. After all, here is a man who is actually making money out of horses, who wears a smile! I admit that I find the financial input required to commit to Parelli training is a little off putting, but having spent a lifetime spending lots of money on training for BHS examinations and an equine science degree in Agricultural college, with accredited trainers (of a more traditional ilk), tack and gadgets galore, I am willing to put my proffesional neck on the line and admit that there is so much more that I could learn about horses, using much more simple techniques (as offered by Parelli). I've worked in the horse industry all my life, and considered myself to be well informed and professional, however, since starting Parelli recently I can admit to being a total novice in regards to REALLY understanding how horses work. I am really enjoying being a novice again, I'm learning so much and so fast. 
Because finances are tight, I have not joined the Parelli savvy club, I have bought most of my stuff second hand from eBay and all my ropes and halters are from Germany (from a great company called Quarter 91). I keep my horses on a tight budget, with little to spare on expensive training or equipment, so I do struggle to forge ahead with Parelli. Indeed, I think Parelli would be viewed with much less cynicism if it were less expensive.
Even the Birmingham conference seems to be vastly overpriced, which is a real shame.
The Parelli's have a very valid technique that is not available to all who may be interested...


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## Castlecourtdaisy (21 May 2007)

^ that's a point actually...BHS training for exams costs hundreds! And that's for like, a 10 week course (one 3 hour session per week) - with someone who (speaking from experience here) could possibly be teaching you very little and also incorrectly for the syllabus...! I know Stage One is simple, but when a supposedly qualified instructor convinces you of something, it's extremely annoying to find out two days before when you get to see the syllabus that all these little things are actually complete rubbish, and you've spent bucket loads of money to make you LESS prepared. Following the course, there was a scheduled exam, and funnily enough, I was the only one to take it. The rest all pulled out!

Ahem, bad experience there! =P I could go on...!


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## burtie (21 May 2007)

QR - I don't see how anyone can compare the BHS way to other ways, the BHS is not about 'a way', certainly for stages 1 and 2 they are just about handling any horse safely and looking after it with understanding of it's needs. You don't even begin to cover schooling and teaching the horse until Stage 3 and even then it is more about how you would approach it, to show you have some understanding of what you are doing. Yes there are some things that are consistent about how you must make the horse go and the aids but this is again a practical thing as the BHS is there to help the masses learn to ride so horses do need to be trained in roughly the same way otherwise it could get rather messy on exam day!!

Now I did my exams 18 years ago so things may well of changed, but back then we were actively encouraged to explain our approach and ideas once we got to stage 3. At that level showing understanding of what and why was the most important element once they agreed we could basically ride.


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## Tinypony (21 May 2007)

I feel that a lot of the animosity towards the term natural horsemanship in this country stems from the attitude of Parelli followers.  In other countries NH just gives you an indication of the sort of trainer you would find, and it doesn't seem to be such a big issue.
Ages ago someone said "I often wonder if Pat is living his dream."
I would say last time I saw him he was.  He seems to revel in his fame and image and I feel is believing his own legend.  I don't base this opinion on seeing him in public, I have spent time with him away from all that.
As for Monty Roberts, well, he's done a lot for helping people to think differently, but I find it very hard to believe he invented anything (I've read Horse Whispers and Lies).  And I find his techniques to be quite crude.  He doesn't quite fit into the NH category to me, uses too many gadgets.


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## gemmah (21 May 2007)

Wow just got back from work! This is gettin' nearly as good as the hunting debate! LMFAO!


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## Enfys (21 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it matters that the horse in the video is strange the point is - being as firm as necessary. You need to find a way of being effective otherwise the horse will ignore you. Pat has his way and no doubt you have yours. But always use politeness first.



[/ QUOTE ]

If I saw any horse of mine treated like the display in the video then, audience or no audience, I would be in there, demanding who ever it was,  get off, immediately.

That is not an inspiring video to watch at all, the horse looked upset and confused, and the overall impression was of clumsy showmanship not horsemanship.


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## RuthR (21 May 2007)

I was at the event that you talk about - and I'm not ashamed to say that I was there primarily to see Pat and Linda.  I sat through Ferdi's demonstration and liked *most* of what I saw.  Interesting that, apart from working with his own son and daughter,  he was working with was a former Parelli instructor on a very young horse (and this was his first time in front of such a large crowd) who Ferdi described as well prepared and completely relaxed.  How interesting?!   
	
	
		
		
	


	





But there was a reason for the intense reaction to Pat and Linda (which I won't go into here) - but to say that things had been building up for a number of months is an understatement.  I enjoyed watching them give their demonstrations and I remember Pat making jokes about 'traditional' methods (he always does) but they are based on what he has seen the whole world over for 25 years+ (and they are *jokes*).  And he doesn't hate dressage - he just hates it when it is done at the expensive of the horses digintiy (which does happen - I have seen it happen).

I'll try clarify to my previous post about displaced behaviours in competition horses.  I was trying to say that perhaps these displaced behaviours come from an crack in the relationship or something that hasn't been properly adressed in that horse's foundation training.  It is in these circumstances that perhaps Parelli could help find the cause of these behaviours and help solve the problem.  I hope that makes more sence.  I was not trying to compare Parelli to competition training - just saying that perhaps Parelli methods could help form a better foundation for higher level persuits.


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## hatters (21 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Time, respect and patience are all you need to build a bond with a horse, and luckily, they're all free. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree!


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## Panther (22 May 2007)

over priced and over here!!! ohhh god!!! 

(used to be oversexed and over here years ago!)

dangerous in some hands!!!

I have known many a novice owner, we probably all know one who just owns a horse... doesn't do anything with it... firstly buys one completely unsuitable for them... doesn't know how to look after it, train it blah... blah..

thinks a book or video will teach them all they need to know! it takes years, time and effort, many frightened of their horses , unable to cope with behaviour....

start waving sticks about... madness...

a carrot stick IS over-priced schooling whip... some people on here have really brought it, lock stock and all bloody equipment!!! my god!!

if it rocks your boat great... good for you..... but there is nothing that time, patience, attention and life-long learning from experienced horsemen to be read in a manual or watched on a video! And it is nothing new!!!! People having been doing alot of it for years!! Absolutely years!!!! and not paid an absolute fortune for it!!!!!

oh and by the way two of my "crack pot" friends went down that road to a high level and then got to a stage where they said no this is wrong... didn't agree with alot of it and gave up much the wiser!! and would never consider promoting it!!! hummmmmm me thinks!!! 

You would be better off going to Pony Club... much better start!


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## jnb (22 May 2007)

One phrase: "All the gear, no idea" comes to mind (in certain cases).

Parelli canot take the place of genuine, old fashioned common horse sense.

I am not "anti-Parelli" per se - but I AM anti rip off.
It seems to me from my perspective, that the Parelli disciples are all reading from the same hymn sheet. 

I do wish them all the luck in the world, I would not discount it out of hand, but nor should they discount "old-fashioned", "BHS" methods or suggest that anyone who doesn't follow "Jesus's" methods has an unhappy horse that hates them!


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## jnb (22 May 2007)

Oh, and PS, I could only watch about 20 seconds of that video - it made me feel physically sick.


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## spaniel (22 May 2007)

Not just me then jnb......


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## gemmah (22 May 2007)

ruth did u get my pm? dnt know if i did it right? lol


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## RuthR (22 May 2007)

Yes I got it thanks gemmah.


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## IrishCobsRule (22 May 2007)

RuthR - it was quite clear that there was 'other' things going on at that demonstration - the whole Equine Ethology / Parelli thing was intersting to observe to be honest.
Are you certain that the Parelli instructor's horse was as young as you make out? I seem to remember that horse being introduced as having evented or certainly soon to be out eventing.
The intake of breath and hissing and muttering from the crowd when Ferdi tightened her horses noseband - was interesting to say the least. Despite the obvious resistance (and somewhat sulkiness) from the rider Ferdi's advice definitely improved the horse's way of going.
Whatever undercurrents were going on with the Ethology / pure Parelli thing left myself and my trainer wondering did Ferdi feel that he had been brought into the lions den.
We were led to believe that Ethology movement was about broadening the horizons of using 'NH' methods and getting the message out to a wider audience, promoting kinder training methods and having recognised qualifications - laudable intentions if that was what they were really tring to achieve - although it now appears that they had other motives on their agenda.
I for one felt privilidged to observe Ferdi himself ride his fabulous bay horse - to see horse and rider in such harmony was simply breathtaking - the horse's floppy relaxed ears and willingness to perform was a pleasure to watch and my problem was that alot of the audience appeared to be pre-programmed into a Dressage=Evil mindset. And if you remember Pat himself several times mentioned dressage training methods and said that dressage training was all about 'we have ways and means of making you do things'. Im not saying that this is not the case in some training methods but as with anything else it is very wrong of him to imply that  is the case overall.
What was also very interesting was when Linda worked with the chestnut horse belonging to a Parelli approved instructor and basically criticised the way the horse looked and moved - the lack of engagement and roundness over its back - to me this emphasised one of the major problems - Pat and Linda obviously have higher end goals than most people dabbling in their methods.
While I wont be attending any further Parelli demonstrations I believe that their followers will see something very different at the next one - I think that now that they are away from the old British group may be a good thing. I dont necessarily think that all of their fans will keep up - as has been mentioned in this thread several times already it appears that some of the more enthusiastic fans (Parelli = Right / anything else = wrong) are quite happy remaining at around Level 1 or 2.
As I said in my last post it is not for me but as with everything else relating to my horse experience so far I hope I have added to my knowledge of horses. It is my belief that on the whole (excluding cruelty obviously) there are no right or wrong methods only the right or the wrong way to put them into practice.


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## gemmah (22 May 2007)

I was at the demo Ferdi did aswell and I must confess I didn't really like it. Personally I felt him to be too demanding and forcefull (with his children aswell!) There was a silly undercurrent of opposition in the audience and I think it has been shown on this board aswell by the more 'potty' pnh'ers. I felt that the horses (and don't get me wrong I'm no GP dresg rider!) were tight (in thier mouths and in their minds) and were very reactive to the atmosphere. Not wrong, just something I felt. B4 any1 jumps in, I am not anti-dressage AT ALL! 
I (not being 1 of the silly 1's who staged some sort of bizarre boycott 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 ) attended the EE conference the following year and aswell as seeing demos from various EE instructors, Ray Hunt and his grandson and equine postural trainer and regd osteopath Gavin Scofield, I watched some fantastic sessions with Carl Hester. Now while he doesn't use parelli or EE specifically, he had a very natural appoach with his horses, he used 'natural' (for want of a better word, sorry) principles, ie release and reward the slightest try, let the horses express themselves, and was not critical or demanding if they made a mistake. The difference in his horses when compared to Fedi and Maria's was obvious, and it would seem that with his past record and current results the world over, many dressage judges would agree!


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## IrishCobsRule (22 May 2007)

I think you'll have to agree that Maria E's results are quite impressive too. It was Ferdi' himself's riding demo I was referring to - I saw a relaxed, willing, happy horse with floppy ears - it appears that we both interpreted something different from it - so how about we agree to disagree on that one? 
The EE conference the following year sounds interesting and I like your description of Carl H working with the horses:
 [ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]  _Now while he doesn't use parelli or EE specifically, he had a very natural appoach with his horses, he used 'natural' (for want of a better word, sorry) principles, ie release and reward the slightest try, let the horses express themselves, and was not critical or demanding if they made a mistake. _ 

As I said in my first post in this thread - to me a 'natural horseman' is someone who has a natural gift - someone who has learnt their skill from from all the horses they've worked with and someone who admits that they are never finished learning. Pat Parelli has used the phrase Natural Horse.Man.Ship as a marketing tool for his particular method of training that he has cleverly and very successfully marketed - it is how people have interpreted/embraced it that is so contentious.


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## Grumpy Herbert (22 May 2007)

Each to their own, I guess, but it does seem a bit of a rip off.  I mean, paying good money for an orange painted stick is just mad!  My own feelings are that people should just spend time and get to know their horses (not necessarily from on board), and build up trust - common sense!  No amount of gimmicks will make you brave if you're not or a good rider if you're not.  Know your own limitations and work within them.


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## RuthR (22 May 2007)

I believe the horse was about 6/6 and a half years old. Charlotte had only had him about 6 months though and had a done a lot of work on getting him confident and 'solid' - he was a very spooky, scared horse when she got him (and I'm sure you'll agree there was a lot of him!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




)  To me 6 years old is still quite young and that was what I was refering to...sorry if that was unclear.  I'm not sure if he had been evented or not by that point but he'd certainly not been in front of 2/3,000 people before!  

I believe the reason why there was such a negative reaction to the 'noseband insident' is as follows.  Most of the people who were there were there to see Pat and Linda.  During Linda's demo she stated:  'We don't ride with nosebands because we want the feedback that you can get from the mouth.  If a horse is crosing its jaw its telling you something and you need to change your plan to get the horse soft in the mouth again.'  So when Ferdi pulled the horse into the centre and said 'I'm going to tighten the noseband because he is grinding his jaw' it was like showing a red flag to a bull!  I personnally can't remember much of the detail of that demo so if you remember anything more clearly please correct me but that seems to be what I took away from the demo.  

But I feel that as Ferdi was asking more of the horse he was bound to show some tension (or whatever you want to call it) while he figured out what was being asked of him.  I personally feel that maybe the same result could have been acheived by leaving the noseband as it was and just giving the horse a bit more time to sort himself out.  Thats just my opinion.

The chestnut horse that you speak of I think did a beautiful job.  Yes Linda did say that he needed more muscle along his topline but also said that probably his saddle wasn't helping matters.  I think the changes that Linda made to that horse during such a short space of time were really profound and I took a lot away from that demo.  I also loved the way that horse sidepassed over to linda to let her get on from the barrel.  That was a horse who wanted to be ridden  
	
	
		
		
	


	





I believe that you are right - we will see a huge difference this August.  For one Pat and Linda will have their own horses from the US over with them.  I've never had the privilidge to see their horses in real life but I'm really looking forward to it.


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## claremac (22 May 2007)

Hello everyone
I've read some of these posts with interest.

If Parelli is pointless because it is just good old horse common sense, why isn't there more good old horse common sense about?

Why as an independent nutritionist am I inundated with owners desperate to find a feed or supplement to help their problem horse (fizzy, bolshy, bolts, rears, can't catch, can't ride, pulls, naps, won't leave herd mates, can't load, doesn't travel well, aggresive, lazy, won't go forward under saddle... etc etc).

Seems to me that many owners need help with their horse-sense/horsemanship (because feed and supplements aren't going to help, despite what labelling might claim!!).

Enjoy your horses everyone,
Best wishes
Clare


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## Panther (22 May 2007)

completely agree but not parelli part.. soz... 

feed companies market their products as a cure all, fact is many horses are now over fed especially grain... people are brought into it...

doesn't mean over priced "natural" horse instruction is the answer..

unfortunately we live in a culture where people believe they can own a horse but know very little about them!
with so many riding schools closing it really doesn't help matters..


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## Talan (22 May 2007)

"I also loved the way that horse sidepassed over to linda to let her get on from the barrel. That was a horse who wanted to be ridden"
Don't you realise that Parelli horses do these things because they have been trained to?  A Parelli horse learns to sidepass by having 4 phases of pressure applied to it's body.  Parelli operates on the principle that if they horse doesn't do as you wish then you make sure that you tell them firmly (or hard) enough so that they do.  So the horse sidepassed towards the barrel because over the course of it's training it had learnt that not doing what was asked would have fairly severe consequences.
Why does Parelli liberty work?  Because the horses are taught to "hide their hinds" or have them wopped with a stick or popper on the string.   
Why does a Yo Yo "game" work?  Because the horse has learnt that if it doesn't back off from a waggling finger it might get the rope swung so hard that the heavy metal clip hits it around the face.  I could go on...
I'm not saying it doesn't work, or even that it's wrong, but please recognise what you are seeing.  It is the product of a careful and exact training process, not a lot of horses prancing and moving about from free will.


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## Panther (22 May 2007)

hurray!!!!!!!!! Talan... yes!! people don't realise it's not "natural" it's training.... or near of roboting - many de sensitized horses i have met have huge hang ups or have no personality left to them!!!!!!!!

poor buggers!

it is still using force or fear!!!


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## RuthR (22 May 2007)

Ok...yes I do know what I'm seeing.  Parelli works on the principles of herd interactions.  You watch horses out in a field together and they play games....dominace games...games of who moves who.  And sometimes those games get rough - horses will kick and bite.  Sometimes they will kick hard enough to break bone - thats horses, thats their way of life.

So yes, we go through 4 phases but the first phase is extremely light.  I don't see how thats any different to someone asking for something with their leg and then backing it up with a stick?  The reason liberty works is not through *making* a horse doing things (you try doing it that way and you'll end up in either serious danger or you horse will just run off!) its by building up a relationship to where your horse *wants* to be with you.  Liberty shows you the quality of your relationship - it tells you the truth.

That horse wanted to do that.  Its not that he's been conditioned to do it.  The expression on that horses face was one of confidence and relaxation.  Linda didn't even have to ask him to move over - he offered.  If he wanted to he could have walked off.


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## Gingernags (22 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]


Why as an independent nutritionist am I inundated with owners desperate to find a feed or supplement to help their problem horse (fizzy, bolshy, bolts, rears, can't catch, can't ride, pulls, naps, won't leave herd mates, can't load, doesn't travel well, aggresive, lazy, won't go forward under saddle... etc etc).



[/ QUOTE ]

Because more and more owners now are just buying a horse with not enough knowledge, not having the benefit of old style riding schools where they'd teach you to muck out and you'd help out for rides and pick up skills.

Now any old numpty can buy a horse that is beyond their skills, then blame feed/saddle/weather or whatever and latch on a nice package like Parelli as they can buy it, it looks pretty with strings and orange sticks etc and it fits their idea of what they want and how great they will be - but they think its a quick fix when its not.

The only answer is always - work at it, spend the time with your horse, and get help if you can't manage.

Sadly as we said, natural horsemanship may be sense according to some of us, but not every one has the common sense they were born with...!


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## Tina33 (22 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
"I also loved the way that horse sidepassed over to linda to let her get on from the barrel. That was a horse who wanted to be ridden"
. 

[/ QUOTE ]

NO it isn't about a horse who wants to be ridden, it is about a horse who doesn't want it's hiney whacked with a phase four!  My horse sidepasses to me as I sit on a fence and that is how I trained her to do it, per instructions from a certified Parelli instructor.   I originally studied Parelli, but found that it uses far too much negative reinforcement.  That is what the carrot stick is all about.   Do this to avoid this.  

If you want so see a truly horrendous example of Linda misreading a horse watch the trailer loading segment of the Liberty and Horse Behavior program.  It is three hours of her mentally abusing a horse.   There are many moments where she should have retreated where she didn't.   The horse did eventually get in the trailer but it was akin to someone jumping out of a building because the building was on fire.  Just wanted to get away from the torture.

There are other things about Parelli that are just plain wrong.  I do believe Pat has a gift, an understanding of horses that comes to him naturally.  But the program has been distorted for the sake of marketing.   

They teach their own  pseudo-psychology and misuse and make up terms constantly.  One of the things that frustrates me is their use of the term right-brained and left brained.  It shows a totally misunderstanding of animal psychology and how the brain works. I imagine it is one of the reasons that Stephanie Burns no longer collaborates with them.  They are not experts or educated in this field, yet they charge people thousands of dollars to attend classes at their schools in Florida and Colorado.  I know young women who are foregoing college in order to go to the Parelli school, where they are being fed inaccurate information about basic animal behavior.


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## phaseone (22 May 2007)

Hmmm some interesting comments on this forum. I wont say on both sides, since the sides appear to be somewhat blurred. 

Sometime in 1984, I remember going to a clinic in Surrey. A well known showjumper put on a fascinating display of horse and harmony. The horse ran loose in the arena, jumping any obstacle he was asked to jump.  At about the same time I became aware of an amazing guy form the USA, Monty Roberts. It did not occur to me at the time that Montys technique was so different from the showjumper I saw. What I recognised at the time was an ability to communicate with the horse. Positive communication and partnership is important to me. I suspect on that level, most of us want the same thing.

When I think of the many horse owners I have met in recent years, scores of them have been caring, able riders who love their horses. A far higher number have not displayed these qualities. Each show season, I drive past a pony whose head is tied down to its chest all day, every day, in preparation for showing. Many of you have spoken about common sense. My suspicion is that if good horsemanship really was common sense, then this spectacle would not be seen and none of us would have need of instructors at all. Not too long ago, a woman was at our yard who was so hostile, her Dutch warmblood mare probably thought her name was f****** b**ch! Both of the above owners were no strangers to the RSPCA, but this fact was something to boast about and not be ashamed of, apparently.

I know a professional trainer who has racks of bosals, 45ft lines, rope hackamores. To him the equipment isnt natural it is HIS normal.  Luis Lucio, the Spanish Grand Prix Dressage rider uses Parelli techniques with his horses to improve lightness and communication. His website is worth looking at. David and Karen O Connor also practice natural horsemanship techniques. The best example of bridleless riding I have seen was Davids display at the Kentucky 4*, on The Future of Horsemanship video.

Parelli himself says that his method isnt better than anything else, just different.


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## Panther (22 May 2007)

yes but the trouble is most of the pro agruments site odd stories about people who are just bad horsemen, iggnorant, stupid or just plain nasty and are traditional horsemen.

the agruement about parelli is about a system that is there for all to read.. black and white and sorry is mostly just plain wrong or bullying.. submission... submission.... or whack!!

I am not saying it doesn't get results... i am just saying i do not agree with it....

I've had horses difficult to load it takes time and presevrence.. not 3 hours bullying....quick fix... that is not natural nor sympathetic!! you must be blind!!!


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## phaseone (22 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I've had horses difficult to load it takes time and presevrence.. not 3 hours bullying....quick fix... that is not natural nor sympathetic!! you must be blind!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Excuse me Panther, just who are you calling blind? There is no reason why the subject of 'natural' vs 'traditional' should be so emotive. There's good and bad practice in both, but, my belief is that there's a lot of people doing the best they can for their horses between the two extremes.

The point you make about 3 hours of bullying, I cannot defend. I have seen the trailer loading mentioned earlier and I was personally disgusted by it. That's hard to admit as someone who has studied this method for many years now. We all make mistakes and Pat and Linda do admit to having made a few along the way. 

On the subject of trailer loading though, I was present one day at a show when my friend's horse refused to load. He knew the seven games in a basic way but hated to be rushed. He was being hurried along and was resisting. A quantum savvy instructor turned up and loaded the horse after about twenty minutes of rushing about and making the horse so desperate for a rest that it shot into the trailer! Yes, as you say, it worked. Was it an example of good horsemanship?


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## Talan (22 May 2007)

Just bear in mind that most natural horsemanship style trainers don't claim to have invented anything, so you would expect other horsemen to have the same equipment in their tackroom...  Keep going on about how so-and-so does the same thing doesn't seem to prove any points to me.  Pat Parelli says "This is so old it's new".
OK, on things like sidepassing horses.  I don't think a carrot stick is any better or worse than any other stick, what I do think is that some people kid themselves about how they use their stick.  (Even the "friendly game" is a firm approach to de-sensitisation).  You can see alert and relaxed expressions on horses that have been trained with Parelli, of course you can, that is probably because the horse is confident that it knows what is being asked of it, and can do it.  However, that does not alter one bit the way the horse was originally taught, when they didn't understand what, for example, wagging your phase 1 finger at them meant.  I know because I too have been taught it.  You use whatever it takes - phase 4 can be pretty drastic - to make your horse move when you want it to.  The result is that the horse gets responsive and reacts as soon as it sees you "phase 1" in future - because it knows the consequences if it doesn't.  That is how the liberty horses learn to react to the slightest movement from their handlers, that is why a Parelli horse moves it's arse out the way sharpish when you tip your head towards it, and why they move their front end over as soon as you raise your fingertips towards their head.
I'm not saying this is wrong, I'm saying call a spade a spade.  You may have great relationships with your horses, but you got there by following a firm and assertive training method.
I would say the same about Monty Roberts and his teachers.  How anyone can claim that they are "whispering" and using a gentle approach, when they are prepared to pull horses about in pressure halters, tie dummies to their backs, force them to load with panels all around... beats me.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




I'm not saying any of this is wrong, because at the end of the day all of these people, at least the ones who do things properly according to the system, end up with responsive and safe horses.  But I don't see how any of you can come on to a forum like this and accuse others of using forceful or stressful methods with their horses, it's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black in my view.


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## Panther (22 May 2007)

no it wasn't just happy owners...

the remark "are you blind" was not at you in person or to your comment itself but in general re: parelli... are not Parelli worshippers blind?? seeing things just how they want to... wrapped in cotton wool, feeling safe with the words natural??

I was told by a "trainer" once about difficult loading when an in-hand youngster decided he didn't want to go onto trailer, he wasn't being naughty.. he was enjoying the sights the sounds the smell of fresh horses... she did admit/say it would take 20mins and then he would say for god sake leave me alone i will go in the bloody trailer for peace, i said P*ss o**!
years later he loads still happily with no fear!!!

good horsemanship!!


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## Panther (22 May 2007)

have to add why on earth would i want an 2 yr old so plagued and pestered by me/humans that he does it to switch off??? to escape me???

bewildering??


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## phaseone (22 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Just bear in mind that most natural horsemanship style trainers don't claim to have invented anything, so you would expect other horsemen to have the same equipment in their tackroom...  Keep going on about how so-and-so does the same thing doesn't seem to prove any points to me.  Pat Parelli says "This is so old it's new". 

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the point of mentioning it Talan. People who practice Parelli aren't from Mars. Most of the techniques would be very familiar to any horseman from the Americas, Spain, Portugal and beyond. Perhaps the 'new' part is that a programme has been produced and packaged so that previously inaccessible information is now available to us. Parelli may be the first to mass market the 'product' but others aren't far behind.


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## phaseone (22 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
the remark "are you blind" was not at you in person or to your comment itself but in general re: parelli... are not Parelli worshippers blind?? 

[/ QUOTE ]

That's good  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I know that there are Parelli followers so passionate that they cannot permit themselves to question what they see. But, increasingly this happens are people progress through the programme. This would be right wouldn't it? It is healthy to question what we do. 

It is interesting though Panther, that you referred to worshipping and others have done so too. Maybe it has something to do with the isolation students can experience when they make a decision to study the Parelli method. This makes us behave in a certain way. Perhaps increases our isolation. We do, after all, look quite rediculous at the start, when learning rope skills and so on


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## Talan (22 May 2007)

Sorry P_P - I get your point now.


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## Panther (22 May 2007)

exactly passive persistence... they can get sooo agressive... soo challenging of others.. you are not doing things naturally... blahh... blahhh...

yes herd instincts dicate agressive behavoiur but i am not a horse!!! i want to ride him... channel his energy... spirit.... and ability...

mutal love and respect builds great partnerships... not bullying...!!!!

no doubt a "talented rider" can bully a "talented horse" to acheive much.. but that is simply not good nor natural horsemanship! note horse MAN ship.... not horseship IE pretend to be horse!!!


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## phaseone (22 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
exactly passive persistence... they can get sooo agressive... soo challenging of others.. you are not doing things naturally... blahh... blahhh...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, good point. It is like (kind of anyway)a reformed smoker going on and on about the risk of cancer..... Now that their view has changed and they feel so different -in a positive way- they start to needle others. People need to be free to make their own choices don't they?


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## Panther (22 May 2007)

yep... but the machine is moving to town!!!! (or stoneleigh) and out of the window goes common sense!


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## phaseone (22 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
herd instincts dicate agressive behavoiur but i am not a horse!!! i want to ride him... channel his energy... spirit.... and ability...

mutal love and respect builds great partnerships... not bullying...!!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree totally 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 . Aggression by the human towards the horse leads to fear and intimidation of the horse. Your goal of mutual love, respect, partnership couldn't exist or thrive if the horse was crushed into submission could it? I hope that working with, and not against, a horse's energy, spirit and ability -as you suggested- is the ultimate goal for many of us. 

As for bullying. I hate that! Too much of it in the human world as it is


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## Panther (22 May 2007)

money.... it's all money and profits nothing else!

passive is perhaps a good name for you and thats how it should be... build passive relationship first and progress...

in an un handled youngster i aim at tollerance and move from there... no pressure... they have to learn  we are to be trusted... I am not going to jump that ditch it's scarcey mum... yes you are cos you can do it and i would ask you if you couldn't sweet heart so lets go!!


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## phaseone (22 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
but the machine is moving to town!!!! (or stoneleigh) and out of the window goes common sense! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Panther 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Surely we need to coexist. Since I have no idea about the georaphical location of the new office except that it not too far from Birmingham, it doesn't matter to me where Parelli sets up. 

My guess is that most horse owners have never had cause to go the the BHS HQ and don't particularly care where it is.

If the BHS HQ was just over the fence from Parelli (so to speak) that might actually prove very interesting, don't you think?


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## phaseone (22 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
passive is perhaps a good name for you and thats how it should be... build passive relationship first and progress...

[/ QUOTE ]






 Isn't that what Parelli, Mark Rashid, Leslie Desmond and others all teach? Perhaps Leslie Desmond and Bill Dorrance put more emphasis on being slow and passive though, especially at the start, when doing anything new.


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## sqippa (22 May 2007)

Sorry but have to step in there.
Paralli works by positive reward as well as negative!

Whenever the horse responds in the correct way they are rewarded with physical affection otherwise known as 'The friendly game'. One of the  first games you learn is to find your horses favourite spots. Most of us already know them any way but we are then encouraged to use these to reward... a much better reward surely than food treats that many people use.

As with any training technique/programme...call it what you will, there are positive and negative sides, no one has yet come up with the perfect way. And sadly the success depends on the person who uses the technique. It doesn't matter what programme a person uses whether it is Parelli, Monty's stuff, Kelly Marks, or any other ideal way even BHS...they can all be abused by ignorant and cruel people. Don't blame a programme for a weakness in human nature.

I find it really quite anmazing how worked up and aggressive people can get when some one mentions Parelli... there are some very strongly opinioned people on here. I thought twice before even reading this thread as I was concerned that I would be shocked by what I read...I was right. Guys can't we just pass on own own personal experiences politely and leave it at that?

So here goes:
I have used Parelli with great success with my boy. I have owned my 2 horses for 12 years and consider mysellf to be a kind and practical owner. I took up Parelli to keep me and my boy amused over a winter when he was unable to be ridden. It was great fun for both of us. We had no issues with behaviour, we just wanted something to while away the hours. However to my pleasure I found that whilst working on Parelli our relationship improved even further, he was even more of a love than he already was! I also went to a Ross Simpson Parelli clinic when he was based in Mayfield. Had a great weekend and shared a great experience with like minded owners. Most were like me, looking for something different to do, some needed more help with their horse but everyone worked very much with the use of positive reinforcement as well as increasing level of 'ask' or 'pressure' (from a light fingertip touch to a prod to a hard prod and bang). I am sure that everyone on this site has hit their horse at some stage to make it go where needed, jump, get off your foot. We are no angels but Parelli doesn't make you worse or give an excuse. Sady some misuse it but then they'd probably misuse anything even if all they had was their foot, fist or stick rather than a carrot stick. I never took it any further than level 1 and just play every once in a while. I would not hesitate to use it with any other horse that I have in the future.

THE END
	
	
		
		
	


	





Squip


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## gemmah (22 May 2007)

Panther, yr description of the ditch jumping is spot on! It is certainly the attitude that I have with my horses! It seems thet the majority of us on bothsides of this 'debate' have exactly the same ideas, just express them differently and use difrnt tools?? Just a thaught?
Can't remembr who said bout the phases thing and u increase till they do what u want. That only applies if the horse is completely ignoring u! As soon as they stary to try, even if they're not doing the thing u want u don't increase the pressure at all u just wait for them to figure it out. It's the 'try' that yr looking for, then u just wait for them to work it out. Even if that is at phase 1 or 2. To incrase the pressure just til they do what u want thro confusion or fear is just plain cruel! It's all about giving them as much time as they need to work out what u want and not being judgemental or impatient if it takes a while. I know stuff from the programme seems to have been mis-interpreted by some students and P and L hav tried to rectify this by bringing out the new packs. These focus much more on psychology and taking time rather than getting things done 2 quickly.
If phase 4 (as firm as necessary) is used, there is (if done correctly) no attitude in it. No aggression, no fear no judgement involved. It is emotions that the horse reacts to more than the physical. (obviously i don't mean beating the horse b4 any1 twists my words).
 There does seem to be some anthropomorphism going on here. Horses really do appreciate being treated like horses, even if we as humans don't always feel comfortable with that. How many times have we put our horses in the field and felt they were being bullied, hurt or upset by other horses? Not a fact, just what WE feel. To the horse he's just being a horse!


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## gemmah (22 May 2007)

Well said sqippa!


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## anorakarabian (22 May 2007)

I think Parelli is wonderful. I think horses as a hobby/ life are great as there are so many different disciplines we can choose.
I have done various of these but am now loving working my way through level 2 Parelli.


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## Tina33 (22 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
The point you make about 3 hours of bullying, I cannot defend. I have seen the trailer loading mentioned earlier and I was personally disgusted by it. That's hard to admit as someone who has studied this method for many years now. We all make mistakes and Pat and Linda do admit to having made a few along the way. 


[/ QUOTE ]

Pat and Linda clearly did not see the three hour trailer loading as a mistake.  They included it in there $1000. home study DVD collection.


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## Tina33 (22 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but have to step in there.
Paralli works by positive reward as well as negative!
Whenever the horse responds in the correct way they are rewarded with physical affection otherwise known as 'The friendly game'. 

 as increasing level of 'ask' or 'pressure' (from a light fingertip touch to a prod to a hard prod and bang). I am sure that everyone on this site has hit their horse at .

Squip 

[/ QUOTE ]

The friendly game is used for desensitising and relationship but is not used to reinforce behavior.   Just ask yourself which behavior your horse will do for a  scratch?  Will he back up or yield his hind quarters just for a nice scratch?  The friendly game does not reinforce behavior and it is not positive reinforcement.

All pressure is negative reinforcement.  The animal responds to a negative stimulus....pressure.  Negative reinforcement isn't bad, but requires timing or can easily turn into punishment.    These are simple things that any one taking a beginning animal psychology class would know.  Unfortunatly someone can spend lots of money studying Parelli and still not be taught this.


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## Bess (22 May 2007)

This has been a very interesting thread, I thought it would just degenerate into Parelli vs HHO'ers but not so.  Many ex Parelli people seem to have added their bit and I'm glad they have, because it gives a balance to the 'idealisem' of the Parelli beleivers.  This has been the one of the most potentially contentious threads I've ever read on HHO and yet it seems to still retain a balanced discussion.  Well done everyone.


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## phaseone (23 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Pat and Linda clearly did not see the three hour trailer loading as a mistake.  They included it in there $1000. home study DVD collection. 

[/ QUOTE ]






 Yes Tina33, you are quite right. They may disagree with my view and not see in a negative way at all. Perhaps feedback from students and non students, who have seen the footage will help them re evaluate the sequence. This is perhaps a subject for another thread! 

I have bought lines and a halter from Parelli, plus a bridle. My other equipment was bought elsewhere, but is the same quality material. I borrowed the Liberty pack since I didn't have a spare £600 
	
	
		
		
	


	




. But when I think about the durability of Parelli equipment and the 'reusability' of the learning material, I think it is great value for money. The International Savvy Club site has so much information for members, they feel well supported. 

A friend of mine uses my equipment for Parelli and says she cannot affor to become a member, but will keep two horses on full livery and pay for lunge/riding lessons at £40 per time. Way more than Parelli would cost anyone, trust me  
	
	
		
		
	


	




.

The last thing I want to mention about the Liberty and Horse Behaviour pack is that, apart from that one sequence above, the pack has so many gems in it about different horses and their reactions to situations and communication and how to recognise your horse's innate characteristics and presentation.


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## wattsy (23 May 2007)

just thought some of you might like to see this clip of a mule doing Parelli - and you know how stubborn mules are supposed to be...!!! ! 
http://www.thewesternshop.com/content/view/272/423/


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## hayleyD (23 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
        I cant wait for the new centre a Stoneleigh to be up and running I just hope I can save the pennies to take advantage of the courses.  It would be truely amazing if Pat and Linda could be over hear and give us some of their amazing input - who knows!!!??
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to put you straight, it's news to the Parelli's. They are coming over to give a 2 day conference but are not teaching over here. thier office is now open but not in Stoneleigh. The parelli's have no idea where that came from.


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## spaniel (23 May 2007)

I have just watched buckle bunnys clip of her mule (who is lovely).

Please all bow down to me...send me lots of money and praise me blindly....my cob does all these things with me and I can assure you I havent spent any money on hyped up marketing to achieve that.


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## HDT (23 May 2007)

In comparison to other equine disciplines parelli equipment is not expensive, I have spent 100's on Parell gear and 1000's on other more traditional equipment.
I am not someone who sees parelli as the only means to horsemanship, though I am a Level 3 student of PNH I also ride dressage and compete at Horse Driivng Trials.

This topic started off ripping into PNH and I am pleased to see the topics have cooled down a little.

Why questions me is why the need to be so defensive? There is good and bad in every equine sport and these come from the person using the method and not the method itself.

Interestingly someone mentiones about how learning PNH from a study pack is dangerous yet they don't mention the distance learning packs that are available for those wanting to learn to ride and further there education.

Nothing is mentioned about those who go to college, don't own a horse and then think a qualification makes them experienced horse people who go out and teach. (By the way this is not mocking people who go to college as I did for my HND in Horse management) 
What I am saying is that there are good teachers and bad and good and bad riders and people who look after their horses and those who neglect their horse.

I have seen PNH practiced very efficiently and the horses enjoying every moment. I have also seen PNH practiced terribly much to the anguish of the horse.

I have also seen some very good dressage riders (not talking about the professionals) who reward their horses using very good training methods and I have seen others who have no consideration for their horses at all. When I say seen I don't mean those just schooling at home but those I see while judging at events.

It was also mentioned, how come PNH folk don't psot on the H&amp;H forum that often.. this thread shows why. If oyu don't follow traditional methods and enjoy PNH you seem to be shot down so to speak.

Riding positions.... I reckon no matter what riding position you undertake, whether the Heather Moffat system, BHS, Classical, PNH etc,  you can if you wanted find enough to demonstrate the negatives and postives of each. So saying at a demo "Such and such proved such and such" only applies if you want to follow what they are saying.

If we believed what everyone said we'd be filled with so many diferent opinions we'd be going round in circles never knowing what was really right or wrong.

On another note it was mentioned that the horses looked dull and bored, again this applies to other disciplines. Only as an example I have seen some dressage horses looking so depressed and bored or angry with ears flat back that this statement doesn't stand.

Over all, I incorporate Natural Horsemanship techniques with traditional methods and use them together. 
PNH is not about training the horse but more focused on teaching the person about horse psycology and understanding the horses needs. 

No method is wrong as long as it is used correctly and with consideration to the horse.

As long as my horses are happy whether this is with PNH, Dressage or Driving then I am happy. 

I'd like to add on a final not that I don't think traditional methods are totally right or wrong or that of PNH. 
I do however feel that the future of the horse is what is important.


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## gemmah (23 May 2007)

brilliantly said HDT!


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## Partoow (23 May 2007)

Lets just get this straight, 'natural horsemanship ' is an oxymoron. There is nothing natural about a horse being ridden.
All we can do is understand why a horse would see aspects of our work with them as threatening and therefore invoke the' flight or fright' mechanism that is natural to the horse. 
All the mombo jumbo techniques are already covered in many old 'horsemastership manuals of old.
I learnt many of these 'techniques' from an 82yr old man in my village who had been working with horses and stock since he was 14yrs.
The Stallion men that used to take their stallions around to cover mares in the local community had so many 'tools' available to them dealing with horses in a variety of situations.
We have become removed from the country, many see it as unsavory and we have lost the traditions and understanding that living in these communities bring.
I was also taught at pony club by a Major Grimshaw, ex cavalry and all the accumulated knowledge that brought. 
More than from just a book.
I am appalled by the idea of these sharlatens being at Stoneleigh as it gives weight to their already exellent marketing campain.
I am a competiton rider and Klimke who was pretty good at developing horses in an understanding way, suggests that what makes a good rider /trainer is someone who thinks like the horse.My horses are worked like Klimke advokates  always happy to do more because they leave the school as they came in, ie not an exhausted sweaty heap.This is the way to develope the horse physically, which interestingly i have yet to see a parrelli trained horse with the kind of musculature that indicates that they have been working along these developmental lines? It is like circus. 
I am bored of having the wheel reinvented and then being told that the way i do things is wrong and 'un natural'
Well when i dont have these Parrelli 'trained' horses coming to me because it has all gone horribly wrong then i may take it as something of value.
I understand my horses'innerchild' well thank you very much and i dont need this American waving his 'carrot stick' to come and tell me at the heart of UK equestrianism that he knows better and is the saviour of competition horses the world over.
All my horses have their own dignity and have respect for those that handle them but dont give them human attributes.they are not they dont reason and they respect strong clear consistent leadership. Go and see someone like Jenny LC work with horses in hand and you'll see something worth paying for.


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## gemmah (23 May 2007)

Congratulations spaniel! You are obviously doing a gr8 job! Fantasic u can do cool stuff 2! Sorry don't have any spare cash at the mo! All gone on the electric bill! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I think u have 2 help other people do it to get the wedge tho'!


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## kellybeau (23 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
just thought some of you might like to see this clip of a mule doing Parelli - and you know how stubborn mules are supposed to be...!!! ! 
http://www.thewesternshop.com/content/view/272/423/ 

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow thanks, I used to have this clip of Millie &amp; Liz but lost it when my old computer died on me!!!

Awesome..... it never fails to bring me out in goose bumps.


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## wattsy (23 May 2007)

just to set the record straight Spaniel, the lady in the clip is not me!! (I got the impression you thought I posted the link to make some sort of point in defence of Parelli - but I just thought it was cute 
	
	
		
		
	


	




).
I do really like that people have fun with Parelli; I can't really understand why people get so uptight about it. I've seen it, thought it was good, and acknowedge that PP is a good horseman and a very good businesman. I don't want to do it myself, not because it's a waste of time, but I don't have enough time as it is, what with training and schooling, and feel quite happy with how we do things. Having said that, if someone came on to our yard and had practised Parelli to a high level, I would almost certainly see if they could teach us something new and useful...I love learning new things and find it fascinating just how much knowledge is out there, across so many disciplines...all little parts of a puzzle that we can take from and use...


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## Faithkat (23 May 2007)

well said!  I've seen Jenny L-C work her horses in hand and she was amazing; I loved the way she "trots" and "canters" with them!  I was also horrified to see that the tickets for the Parellis at Stoneleigh are something like £70 - good grief!! They sure know how to charge for everything and sadly people are prepared to pay for it (how gullible).


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## SavvyHorse (23 May 2007)

That's £70 for 2 WHOLE DAYS. Only £35 per day from am to pm. Some people pay more to see music concerts. Don't think that's too much at all.


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## Faithkat (23 May 2007)

Maybe it is for 2 whole days but who would want to go for 2 days and unless you were local it would mean staying somewhere and it is still £70 even if you only go for one day  - blooming expensive if you ask me.  They are masters of rip-off, if nothing else.  £270 for a kit that would cost £15 max to put together.  There must be people with way too much money to throw away out there  . . .


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## SavvyHorse (23 May 2007)

sorry forester, just your opinion.

I have studied PNH for 4 years and I'm unemployed! I live in Scotland and I am going to the conference. I've saved up Birthday and xmas money and also have clubbed together for a room with others making it much cheaper. There are ways and means of doing anything you want at a price you can afford. It only seems expensive because you dont' want to do it. Fair enough but I'm sure there are other hobbies you probably spend money on that others would think twice about. 

None of us worry too much about spending hundreds of pounds on saddles but they too are vastly marked up beyond the price it costs to make them...it's called making a living.


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## spaniel (23 May 2007)

Buckle Bunny,  it seems you and I feel much the same way about 'methods' in horsemanship.  I too have seen Pat at a demo, I even bought a book, and I have no doubt he IS a good horseman.  My issue is with the over zealous marketing and, from my experience of many NH people, the blinkered brainwashed attitudes that come with it.


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## Rem (23 May 2007)

Partoow - you make some really valid comments about "old" horsemastership skills in your post. 

This is what the Parellis are trying to get across - Pat himself says what he is doing is "so old it's new". If you are in to biographies, get hold of Pat's, in it he talks about the development of "his" system, and credits his mentors on his journey.  Another fabulous book which gives great insight in to the whole thing is Dr Millars "Revolution in Horsemanship", he points out that this whole thing started out with Xenophon, way back in about the 4th century. I would imagine that by now the wheel has been round, square, triangular and gone back to round several times over.

Yes, I am working on my Parelli level 2 at the moment - not because i have a problem horse, but because i saw the relationship that a friend had with her horse who had been brought up Parelli from the day he was born - i wanted just a little bit of that for myself. But - I have also been and watched Monty Roberts, Kelly Marks, Mark Rashid, Ray Hunt and his grandson and Karl Hester at the EE show last year, and i have been out to America and seen some of the well known clinicians in the states working too - Chris Cox, Clinton Anderson, Stacey Westfall.  I take something from all of these people, but i use Parelli as my framework, as it gives me some guidelines to work with and a base to build from and understand other ideas.


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## Faithkat (23 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
   None of us worry too much about spending hundreds of pounds on saddles but they too are vastly marked up beyond the price it costs to make them...it's called making a living.  

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't agree with you there about not worrying about spending hundreds of pounds.  I don't even own a saddle although I do have a horse and it's mainly because I couldn't afford one.  If and when I want to ride, I borrow one but  I do have to agree with you about the price of saddles.  I think they are a rip-off too and believe that the pricing is a legacy from the days when they were made by hand from scratch but I'm pretty sure that nowadays they are machine made and consequently vastly over-priced.  Mind you, the price of some bridles shakes me too - they are a lot of money for a couple of belts and watchstraps!!!


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## RuthR (23 May 2007)

I have to agree with Savvyhorse.  Its seems expensive to you because you don't want to see them.  Thats fair enough.  I'm also traveling down from Scotland to see them as that is what I want to spend my money on.  The Parelli are bringing across at least 3 horses (from what I can gather) from the US and that is not a cheap thing to do!  The conference tickets are also cheaper than in previous years and are at a better location so I actually think its really good value for money compared to what I have paid in the past.

I don't think anyone has the right to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't spend their money on.  Each to their own.  I'm sure there are things that you would spend money on that would be at the bottom of my list...its just the way the world works.  Everyone puts their own value on things - its what a lot of economic theory is based upon.


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## wattsy (23 May 2007)

yes, agreed that PP is expensive but is it value for money.....? Some people have said YES, others NO... 
Value for money is entirely down to the individual, isn't it? For instance, you can buy a perfectly good t.shirt from Primark or wherever, but with good branding and marketing, you can pay 5 times as much from a 'posh' shop... it's down to the choice of the consumer. PP 'consumers' are obviously happy with their purchase. As for being a 'rip-off' surely any half decent business person will want to generate the largest amount of revenue. Actually, PP has a pretty good business plan because not only does it make money in the short term, it also looks to the future and ties in it's 'customers' for the long term. The most succesful businesses have a strong, loyal customer base who are only too pleased to advocate their 'purchases'. Powerful stuff!!


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## RuthR (23 May 2007)

Thing is I don't think Pat himself is a good business man - Linda was the one who wrote everything down and Mark Weiler was the one who really branded 'Parelli' and put it out there.  They all work together as a team and each brings something different to the organisation.  I think the real business savvy comes from Mark...not Pat.


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## wattsy (23 May 2007)

yeah, I heard that before he met his wife he was very low-key. (behind every man....!)


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## HDT (23 May 2007)

Still a couple of angry voices I see, blinded by their own thoughts and can't see things for what they are...


Who cares what things cost, if the iundividual wants to pay the prices asked so be it.  If you don't like it then the obvious thing is walk away, don't moan about it...
Stuck in a rut,,, can't see for the fog....  happy to moan.... 

Are you jealous .....  coz tell ya what I wish I could come up with a marketing scheme to make money and I couldn't care less if people agreed with it or not. 

So the Parelli's make money from what they do...good on them...

£35 for a whole days entertainment is pennies.... if you think that is expensive then you want things practically for free.  


Needing accommodation if you have to travel...that is pretty obvious and stands for any occasion not just PNH

Parelli being at Stoneleigh...  Well PNH is about horses not you and has every right to be there as are others. Just because you don't enjoy PNH doesn't mean others won't.

What I find amusing is reading threads that people have wrote without thinking.... and of threads from people who haven't a real clue of what they are talking about but try to sound like they do. 


When I keep hearing petty discusions about money that tells me the one who posted is more concerned about the costs rather than the main issue of the topic. Worried about the cost no matter what the activity...simple...don't buy it...

If the best you can do is moan and grumbe without constructive critism please do us a favour...don't bother.

As I said previously ...all sports etc have good and bad points...  yet so many posts are just full of negativity. 

By the way it is very easy to point out the bad in things.. much harder to be mature in your thinking and see the positives.

In case someoen mentions the reapeated saying "your only sayiong all this becasue you do Parelli"  

I would defend Dressage, Driving and other activities on the same merit stating what I believe in.


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## Shilasdair (23 May 2007)

Very useful for those awkward mule parallel parking moments!
Seriously, what is it doing that is special?  Looks normal to me except it's in an electric/tape pen so it can't go away?
S


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## Shilasdair (23 May 2007)

Somehow the words 'vested interest' keep circling in my head when I read your rather bold post.
It must be a great feeling to be one of the 'enlightened ones'!
There isn't much that can't be done with a horse with a bit of peace and some patience.....without great expense to students and others who don't have lots of money to burn.
And I don't believe the Parelli's are a charity (?) unlike the BHS who does it's best for equidae.
S


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## phaseone (23 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
And I don't believe the Parelli's are a charity (?) unlike the BHS who does it's best for equidae.
S  

[/ QUOTE ]

Pity that the intelligent debate seems to have degenerated  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Not sure why anyone would want to criticise Parelli for being a business. What is the BHS if not a business? I've just taken a look at what they 'offer' to the majority of horse owners and riders. In my region very little. If you want horse insurance, they have it. 

Most interesting was the part about BHS approved riding establishments. The pony I mentioned in an earlier post, with its head tied down IS AT AN APPROVED BHS ESTABLISHMENT! Well, I never would have guessed. What does that say I wonder?

In my area, if the BHS didn't exist at all, we wouldn't notice any difference. Many have accused Parelli folk of being brainwashed, potty people. Of course, this isn't a sign of an ability to engage in intelligent debate. But those who say such things perhaps should understand that to many, many thousands of people, the BHS is seen as an elitist organisation, catering for the needs of the wealthy. That is indeed my belief. I believe it probably as much as some of you believe that we have been brainwashed.

So where does that leave the debate? Am I wrong? If I am, where is your evidence? Should I trust you, believe you? Should I change my opinion?


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## SavvyHorse (23 May 2007)

Shilasdair: "Looks normal to me except it's in an electric/tape pen so it can't go away"

The pens we use are electric fencing but we don't put the electric on, Pat and Linda specify this or it could lead to bullying. We use the pens in a similar way that Monty does  but ours are 'gettable out of', his are solid...and believe me our horses tell us when we're using too much pressure as they either jump out of them or push through the tape which breaks, we then know we've asked for too much and we learn to be lighter and more polite. 

If we can learn to be polite enough to have our horses do things at liberty in a pen they know they can get out of what's the problem?


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## Shilasdair (23 May 2007)

Hi PP
A business makes profits for its owners/shareholders.  The BHS is a charity...the money it makes is returned to do further work.
I am not sure what pony you are talking about....I've seen all sorts of good and bad things in different places....not all BHS people are good/bad, not all Parelli people are good/bad.
BHS membership is relatively cheap at around £50 for Gold...and the socio-economic classification of horse owners suggests they are in the wealthier groups (and often female) - this may be Parellis' market. 
As for the debate,  you should try hard to make your own mind up, using evidence that you have seen, and your own expertise/experience.
I have seen quite a bit of the horse industry (I'm old!) and have seen enough of NH and BHS to come to my personal (and always open to change) opinions.
S


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## Shilasdair (23 May 2007)

Hi SV
Nothing wrong with electric tape - I like to electrify mine though, preferably to a mains pylon to keep my daemon 2 yr old in!
It is hard to break though...probably because of the metal fibres running through it.
You misunderstood my post - I just meant that I thought that the horse wasn't at liberty but the video quality was quite poor so wasn't sure if it was tape or lungeline or whatever.
S


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## sqippa (23 May 2007)

Thank you!

Sqip


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## sqippa (23 May 2007)

Not strictly speaking correct. 
Yes the friendly game is used to desensitise horses from things that would otherwise scare them...bags, umbrellas...going near their private parts 
	
	
		
		
	


	








!! But also the system instucts you to remove pressure the second a horse responds in the way you have requested and at an early stage this can be as little as seeing a shift in weight in the right direction. This removal of pressure must then be backed up with a friendly game session scratching thir favourite bit or where you have been applying pressure. It also repeatedly reminds you that failure to remove pressure quickly enough will not get the required result and failure to reward quickly enough will not get the reward. My boy loves it when he has done right and often puts his fav part...ie his rather vast behind...infront of me in anticipation of his reward. 

I am not Parelli mad but have used it and enjoyed it. If its not your piece of cake then leave it but allow others to continue to enjoy it if they wish.

Squip


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## henryhorn (23 May 2007)

HDT I have no problem with them making money whatsoever, I wouldn't offer my services free either.
I do have a problem over the whole idea of "If you follow the parelli method all your problems will be solved"
I can see the method has been carefully formulated, and is of course mostly plain old fashioned "horse sense", but the idea that you can just send for a book/video and equipment and be let loose on your horse really bothers me.
I've had DIY liveries for over thirty years now, and have seen them do the most incredibly stupid things. I would agree with the saying "There are no bad horses just bad owners" but them following parelli won't necessarily make them good owners.
If they followed it step by step whilst being supervised that's a different matter.
We have all seen what happens, they buy the system, start off really well, then end up doing half the stuff half heartedly and making a pig's ear of the horse altogether.
My biggest gripe however is the sheer arrogance and attitude most parelli people seem to have.  it's almost evangelical and I firmly believe too much so because it turns so many people away from what the original aims were trying to achieve.
The other thing is the assumption that all of us should be doing it and would benefit from parelli.. 
 Rubbish, an awful lot of us have learned over many years by experience and can do all the parelli "tricks " if asked, and we don't need carrot sticks to do it either.
Who on earth do you people think you are?  The over riding attitude of "Our way is THE only way"  is so narrow minded it beggars belief...
No, until it's "followers" start showing a little less arrogance and a little more acceptance that there are other ways of training your horse you will never convince many people, me included..
Read your last words on your post.. you accuse people of being so angry they can't see clearly. Well I'm not angry and see very clearly believe me, and 
I think without supervision it's flawed..lots to merit it if it was, but not just sold to horseowners to get it wrong at their horse's expense.


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## Talan (23 May 2007)

I always get frustrated in discussions like this (normally about Parelli) when some people use them as an excuse to boast about how good they themselves are with horses.  Well bully for them, and obviously they have been lucky enough to have good teachers at some point (assuming they didn't spring from the womb with some mystical inbuilt horse sense!).
It's not really the point though is it?  Everyone needs some help with horses, even if only at the start, and not everyone finds a good local teacher to help them.  So I think we should all applaud everyone, Parelli, BHS or whatever sort of student, who gets out there to try to learn to do the best for their horses.
However, I think that those same students should be open to discussion of the good and bad about what they are being taught, and not get personal or insulting about it.  I have to say, Parelli students in particular seem to get a bit dogmatic, and spout long Parelli-isms as defence.  Maybe that shows how effective the teaching is though...
It's been said before, everyone has an anecdote about ineffective Parelli students, and horses stuffed up by "Parelli" - which of course isn't the case, it's the people that stuff them up, when they don't correctly apply the training approach.  You can't blame the training if people aren't clever enough to apply it.  I'd just say to everyone, walk through your average livery yard and look at the happy hackers, aspiring competitors etc there.  Can you truly say that it's only Parelli students stuffing horses up?


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## Shilasdair (23 May 2007)

Well said Henryhorn!
There's a lot to be said for a wider understanding of horses, whether it's BHS, Foundation Degree, Honours Degree, Natural Horsemanship, what the old horsemen said (there are still a few of them around).
There are two interesting things about Parelli, firstly, how evangelical complete novicey horse-owners are...and how they equate themselves to experts very quickly (scarey!).
Secondly, how quickly the first 'wave' of Parelli fans seem to have changed from deifying to demonising the approach within a few years....
I don't envy you running a livery yard....trying to keep all the horses/riders safe!
S


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## the watcher (23 May 2007)

I think that evangelism you see with Parelli students is similar to the 'barefoot' brigade who also seem to be passionate converts; add into the mix the belief that what they are doing is 'natural' and it is a dangerous combination.

As many other have said, there is more than one way to train a horse and many different training routes to take. We should try to stay open minded and take the best of each that we feel we can use. I am happy to use NH principles in many ways, as well as the more conventional training methods..but show me a carrot stick, or a wand, or a clicker and I am liable to start foaming at the mouth.....


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## Shilasdair (23 May 2007)

Foaming?  
Wow I'd like to see that!
I agree that the more we know the better we'll look after the horses...and more fun we'll have too.
It's sad to see the BHS (I know it's not perfect) being criticised by people who have failed Stage 1 or 2....and want the standard lowered to them rather than that they should raise their own game.
I've failed a few myself...and I've learnt to tell myself when I need to do better!
S


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## phaseone (23 May 2007)

Well said Talan


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## aimeerose (23 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

I can now ask for wonderful 'on the bit' dressage moves in a rope hackamore with my horse wanting to do this rather than me pulling her neck in to get a position. My horse is giving rather than being told. Cool!

Shelley 

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW  
	
	
		
		
	


	




, my last mare has never done NH/parelli etc in her life, not EVER, yet she worked very nicely in nothing but a headcoller (tooth op meant no bit for few weeks)
amazingly  *good riding* acheived that!

i do think NH and parelli have a place, but sometimes i think they are a little over rated!


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## phaseone (23 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 A business makes profits for its owners/shareholders.  The BHS is a charity...the money it makes is returned to do further work. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your repsonse Shilasdair. I'm not wanting to take a pop at the BHS, just make a point, as I think you understand. Parelli also ploughs a small (maybe even large) fortune back into developing better materials, instructors, conferences around the globe and so on. This evening I read the BHS president's invitation for ambassadors to come forward and help recruit new members. Hmmmm. I do wonder what the reaction would be if Parelli tried the same approach. The BHS does some simple maths around this membership campaign and to me it just adds up to a lot of money. Charities can be profit making can't they?


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## gemmah (23 May 2007)

Pricey at £70? I pay upto £40 per day for BHS instructors conventions/ training days and when getting my qualifications, travelled about 300miles and paid nearly £500pw plus accomodation to make sure I trained wth some of the best in the country. I sure don't mind paying £35 per day!!LOL


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## phaseone (23 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
As for the debate,  you should try hard to make your own mind up, using evidence that you have seen, and your own expertise/experience.......

[/ QUOTE ]

I do agree Shilasdair and I am glad I bothered to join this debate. It has been very useful to get to know the views of people from across the equestrian spectrum. 

[ QUOTE ]
I have seen quite a bit of the horse industry (I'm old!) and have seen enough of NH and BHS to come to my personal (and always open to change) opinions.
S  

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps it is because of your years  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 and your experience that you are better placed to make up your own mind, and also to change your opinions. I risk alienating scores of people here, but my teenage daughter for one, has a hard time seeing anyone else's point of view and rarely changes her mind 
	
	
		
		
	


	





As a result of this thread I think I will try to be more conscious of what I say and how I say it when it comes to Parelli. Even though students may become passionate at times, it can be offputting and overwhelming to others.


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## Talan (23 May 2007)

I wonder who here can truly do all the Parelli "tricks".  I certainly can't.  And I wonder what tricks they might be.  Yes, I'm sure a lot of people can complete the level 1 tricks, and also a lot of the level 2...  but level 3?  I'm trying to remember what was in that one last time I saw it.  Was it canter flying lead changes on 45 ft line?  Flying lead changes at liberty?  It also includes backing up the horse at liberty doesn't it - without touching the horse at all.  I saw a level 3 video from a Parelli instructor once (ie he'd got that horse to level 3).  He was running with the horse as they cantered, and cueing lead changes with small movements of his body.
I doubt that some of the people who think they can do all the Parelli tasks can do that, and if they can I'd love to see a video.  When Parelli training goes "well" then people really do some things less ordinary.
Can you do the level 4 liberty work?  At liberty (no corral) - show spins, send your horse backwards in a straight line for 25ft, have your horse run back to you, 20 m circles with change of direction, have your horse canter slide stop and backup... have two horses work in a circle around you.  Pointless?  Maybe to you, but to others it's just as relevant as showjumping or Trec.
What I'm saying is there is no use coming on and criticising Parelli students for having attitude by having it back, by belittling the very real skills that can be developed.  These are skills that are out of the norm, although not many people stick it long enough to get there.  Often the retort to this is what is the point of all of this rubbish anyway and who would want to do it?  Well, I don't want to compete cross country, but I don't belittle the skills needed to do it.
Some people are being so damning, and not acknowledging that there is good and bad in everything.  How about the point that there are many, many incompetent horse owners out there ruining their horses, it's just that the Parelli ones stick out more?  I visit a large livery yard regularly (best not say which!) and it's got a good share of people scared to ride, whose horses are walking all over them, who have ruined good horses by their own incompetence.  I don't think any of them are Parelli students.
I'll put my hand up to being ex-Parelli and having moved on - having completed most of level 3 before I did it.  I feel experienced enough to comment on the bad in Parelli, but I also feel it can do a lot of good.  That's speaking from inside knowledge and I would say from an understanding how the programme works.


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## Skhosu (23 May 2007)

'either jump out of them or push through the tape which breaks, we then know we've asked for too much and we learn to be lighter and more polite. '

So you teach your horses to jump over tape, have you ever seen a horse get caught up in electric tape??

Barefoot....it is also more natural for the strong to survive, the weak die. No medical treatments. No stables. Predators etc. Maybe we should encourage all this too?


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## annr (24 May 2007)

Hi Ive just spent the last hour reading though this debate and would like to add my comments.

In 2000 my daughter and I saw a Parelli demo and quite frankly it blew my mind away what they were doing with thier horses.  As a 50 something my riding days go back 40 years and I have seen many changes. As we were thinking of buying a horse we found a holiday where the horses were a trained the Parelli way, we had a wonderful time with them for the week, we learnt at first hand not from a book and we came away with a very sound piece of advice - keep doing it naturally you will be shunned, ridiculed and thought of as very very strange but your horse will thank you.  Well we bought a horse an unstarted 3 year old, we got alot of advice from the establishment and we read, and attended demos and training days but we kept to our dream and yes all of the above did and does happen to us.  Our mare is a combination of traditional and 'natural' she rides english and western and enjoys Parelli.  A very traditional trainer who is teaching her to jump is in awe of her when my daughter turns up for her lessons and warms her up in her horsemans halter. We are thought of as very odd by traditionalists, but a local BHS riding school has asked if my daughter can attend a pony camp she runs and talk to the youngsters about natural horsemanship. Lets just see Natural horsemanship be it Parelli, Monty, Mark or anyone else work alongside the traditional way, lets see equestrianism move into the 21 century and embrace different ideas for the good of the horse and lets talk less about money and rights or wrongs, everyone has and is entitled to their opinion, lets see those of us who choose to ride in a 'bit of string' we allowed to compete alongside our traditionally turned out colleages and not though of as freaks. Perhaps if people stopped and asked why we do it and we stopped getting on our hobby horse things could move forwards. If it is correct that Parelli is coming to Stoneleigh and I believe this has not yet been confirmed by Parelli it simply brings all aspects of horsemanship to one central area in the country surely this must be a good thing remember the journey to unity will begin with one small footstep and perhaps its not that far from one office building to another for a dialogue to begin.


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## sophielove (24 May 2007)

Horse &amp; Hound are not known for their bad reporting.  In fact, they are widely esteemed as the most accurate of information points for everything equine.  If their information is incorrect, it must have been presented in an untidy, unclear or incorrect manner by the person or persons who contacted H&amp;H with the 'news'.

This is simply another example of the way in which the Parelli ORGANISATION communicates.  So often they claim to be 'misunderstood' and yet they do not communicate clearly, accurately, intelligibly, which is why they create so much antithesis to a training method which has real value.

For many people who have not grown up around horses, have fear issues, or have never been trained in any one discipline, the Parelli home study programme gives them a valuable set of tools in order to increase their safety, understanding and relationship with horses.  It's such a shame that the Parelli 'faithful' do so much to alienate equestrians with their attitude.  Someone else said 'like Jehovah's Witnesses' - LMFAO - so true!


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## sophielove (24 May 2007)

HDT, the angriest voice here, for a long time, is YOURS!  And as a 'Parelli Co-ordinator' that is scary for the programme.  I thought you were supposed to learn to control your emotions, in Parelli - or is that only with horses?  

Honestly, I think this forum has become very well-rounded, a true discussion and sharing of minds, ideas, philosophies and thoughts and then you weigh in all riled up and defensive and do no end of damage to all the other level-headed Parelli people out there trying to INTEGRATE with other horsepeople, rather than ALIENATE them.

Grow up!


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## SavvyHorse (24 May 2007)

TriplesandH: we also teach them to resist pulling if caught on rope/tape etc and therefore stand and wait to be released from pressure. My panicky horse now, when she's got a rope caught around her leg, waits patiently for me to remove it or thinks through the process herself rather than panics. I have also helped a friend with her panicky TB at the age of 15 who was never taught this and almost killed her human when panicked by a rope around her leg!

Thin electric tape DOES Break!!!

We don't teach horses to jump tape but they know inside that they can do it if they really wanted to get away.


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## Tinypony (24 May 2007)

Savvyhorse, electric tape does break, eventually, but my mare has permenant scars across her chest from going through electric tape in the field.  A friend's horse nearly punctured a lung when she went through electric fencing - on the stake at the end of a post.
Having said that, I do sometimes chuck up an electric tape pen to work my horses, although it is in a slightly different way to Parelli.  I wouldn't continue the session if the horse showed signs of wanting to leave, that would indicate to me that the horse wasn't ready for liberty work.
Apy2 - you talk about your daughter riding in her "horseman's halter" - (that's a rope hackamore to non-Parelli people).  Do you plan to progress this horse to being ridden bitted?  I'm sure you realise that a lot of people find the idea of riding in a rope halter or hackamore scarey, do you realise it also puts some people off getting involved or going to clinics?  That is one reason why I prefer the natural" horsemen who have a flexible approach, and will have people ride in what they feel comfortable with.  Possibly trying bitless as they feel more relaxed and safe.  The more flexible and tolerant approach wins more people over I find.
It is also true that Pat Parelli himself expects all his own horses to be ridden bitted, indeed he progresses most to curb bits for refinement and uses spurs.  What I am saying is, in ridden terms, is your daughter sticking around the end of Level 2, or is she going to progress through the programme as the originator intended?


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## Tinypony (24 May 2007)

Ah - there's a couple of other things.  If you are going to visit to talk and maybe demo Parelli make sure you get their permission first.  They can be very nasty about the use of the Parelli name by anyone who is not an instructor.
Also, some of my friends who ride in the rope halter have had the experience of kids copying them, without the preparation.  Imagine kids at a local livery yard suddenly deciding to hack out in headcollars to prove that what the rope halter brigade do is not that special.  That may be worth bearing in mind in a pony club visit.
Last - insurance - some companies won't insure you to ride bitless, in case of an accident the fact that your horse isn't wearing a bitted bridle could be argued to be negligent and your insurance company wouldn't defend you.  It might be worth checking this, I'm insured with NFU and have a special note on file to cover me.


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## SavvyHorse (24 May 2007)

Tinypony: sorry to hear your horse got injured and I totally agree with you about stopping a session if a horse showed signs of wanting to leave, it does indicate that liberty isn't ready yet.


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## Christmas_Kate (24 May 2007)

Quick reply:

I've seen a little Parelli work. I've also seen some completetly barking Parelli people. People who feel it's fine to ride out on the road bareback and in just a haltar, with a foal running loose next to them 
	
	
		
		
	


	




. 
Of course, as is everything in life, that doesnt mean ALL parelli people are as crazy and irrisponsible. BUT i feel that this method teaches inexperienced owners that they can somehow work 'magic' and take a fast track. Maybe in someone with years of experience, who's been there and done that, who has done the 'conventional' route.... they're qualified to make their own choices. but nothing, no amount of money, training whatever, qualifies you to know a horse better thn someone who has plain common sense and years and years of dedication and  experience. 

As for the carrot stick.... I think I might nick OH's garden sticks and sell them on 
	
	
		
		
	


	




. I'll use the profit for some good TRADITIONAL training..... 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.


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## Tinypony (24 May 2007)

"but nothing, no amount of money, training whatever, qualifies you to know a horse better thn someone who has plain common sense and years and years of dedication and experience."
That's right, and applies to all training.
Any idiot riding out as you describe xxkatyxx is not a Parelli idiot - they are just an idiot - and would be an idiot whatever label they chose to wear.
Thanks SavvyHorse, I must make it clear I wasn't doing liberty when my mar ran through the tape - I was trying to restrict her because of an injury!


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## joeathh (24 May 2007)

I would never use eletric tape without a charge on it.  There was a post on another forum where a youngster got caught up in the tape and took her flesh off down to the bone.  Now likely 6 months box rest.  I can't see how anyone would suggest such an unsafe practise - you might as well have no barrier.  I use jump poles lay on top of barrels to create a smaller lunge pen in my school.  If the horse does go at it,  the pole rolls to the floor - the worst that could happen is he trips on the pole but this has to be much safer than electric tape!


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## HDT (24 May 2007)

One thing I do agree with is that some people start PNH and suddenky think they are experts, however this also applies to people who ride dressage, show jump and event.. If you look at the bigger picture they do all come under the same scrutinary.

I myself do not see PNH as the only way to go, how could I when I ride dressage and compete in Driving Trials.

What I think is wrong is how just becasue someone enjoys PNH with their horse they are attacked.  And yes a few posts on here have been from people mouthing off and attacking with angry words when they know nothing of what they are talking about.

Posts like yours Henry Horn that state an opinion with a level head are openly accepted. Posts from people who rant and garble are ignored.


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## Shilasdair (24 May 2007)

Hi again PP
Thanks for your post....I guess these young whippersnappers will always see things in black and white...I am sure they'll mellow with age (or the repeated concussion from owning horses!)
S


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## Shilasdair (24 May 2007)

HDT
We are all entitled to our views, even if they don't agree with yours.  Perhaps, just perhaps, Parelli doesn't have all the answers?
I have to say that I do find your posts a little....strong....you are very quick to judge others....with phrases like 'they know nothing of what they are talking about' and 'people who rant and garble are ignored'.  
Perhaps as a Parelli co-ordinator (I don't know what that is, really) you could be more welcoming to the majority of owners who might be interested, but don't want to commit?
Just a thought
S


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## cvb (24 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks SavvyHorse, I must make it clear I wasn't doing liberty when my mar ran through the tape - I was trying to restrict her because of an injury!   
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I also had my mare go through an electric fence - which was just being a fence (field boundary).

I don't use fence tape for any loose/liberty work -  instead you can get the safety/security tape (like they put around road works or to tape off police areas). It does flap a bit in the wind (which we do get a fair bit of where I am in Scotland !), but it would give if needed. I've never had that happen but I would rather manage my risks.... (You can get it from catalogues like Screwfix or even from eBay - its not expensive and lasts for ages 
	
	
		
		
	


	




)

My mare did not cut herself on the fence tape - but she did hurt a leg and it is still affected 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Ruth, Shelley - see you there


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## Tina33 (24 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Horse &amp; Hound are not known for their bad reporting.  In fact, they are widely esteemed as the most accurate of information points for everything equine.  If their information is incorrect, it must have been presented in an untidy, unclear or incorrect manner by the person or persons who contacted H&amp;H with the 'news'.

This is simply another example of the way in which the Parelli ORGANISATION communicates.  So often they claim to be 'misunderstood' and yet they do not communicate clearly, accurately, intelligibly, which is why they create so much antithesis to a training method which has real value.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think this is what I like least about the organization.  They market to the point of being misleading.  For example they advertise the classes at their schools as being exclusive and limited in size.  Even suggest ever so subtley that there are twenty people, yet they allow seventy or more students in a class.  

I do think natural horsemanship (not exclusively PNH)  is wonderful and have used much of what Parelli teaches combined with other methods and an understanding of horse behavior with great success  

I also thing Pat is brilliant and wish he had been able to stick to his original dream.  Unfortunatly his ego as well as Linda's ego and marketing savvy has turned the program in to a bit of a monster.   My only suggestion when dealing with Parelli is buyer beware!  Take Pat's advise and realize that you don't know what you don't know.


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## ShirlJean (24 May 2007)

I did not say that there aren't other great horsemen out there.  Pat has the program to help others achieve that goal as well, not just show what he can do.  When you went home from this other man's demo, where you able to then attain what he was able to do, at the level he presented?  I have many high point trophies on the wall in our arena....when I saw what Pat was offering, I realized what I was missing with my horses.  I was a very good rider, but not a horseman, but I am certainly on the road to becoming a horseman now.  And if you truely observe "most" of the horses at a show, they do think their riders are "asses"!!!!!


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## spaniel (24 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 And if you truely observe "most" of the horses at a show, they do think their riders are "asses"!!!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh for heavens sake!!


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## Skhosu (24 May 2007)

Oh dear...so how do you tell if a show person practisies parelli? Does their horse win? Why on earth not since it is so wonderful?
This is stupid. I see so many well ridden, happy ponies at shows, here's an example, was at a PC event last night, a lesson round a course of jumps. Two horses had a stop, mine and another. Both were reassured, neither rider actually carried a stick, and both continued on happily over big jumps. All the horses in the lessons I watched/was in, were happy and well treated. All of them are competition animals.


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## HDT (24 May 2007)

Hmmm !!!!  How interesting a Home Study Course provided by the BHS, so you can study about horse care at home and get a certificate..  How interesting that the BHS does this. However I can't see anyone being interested as Pat's Home Study Course was slandered by many on here.

The only diffrence is this is being sold on eBay very cheaply at the moment so anyone can afford to buy it really, even those who haven't been anywhere near a horse in there lives...  Mmm!  How interesting....

The eBay number is
 170114638268


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## dicey (24 May 2007)

I have read most of the comments with great interest - there are too many thoughts to comment on quickly!

I am, however, saddened by the lack of regard for individual choice and opinion and some of the derogatory remarks made by both traditional and PNH "students", (who, incidently should know better "attitude" and I am sure Pat and Linda would be mortified).

I am classically trained by one of the most wonderful horsewoman anyone could hope to meet, knowing her students as well as she knew every one of her horses (and she had one for every students issues!)  I was also lucky enough to have the support of a retired head stud groom from one of the top studs in the UK 60 years ago when I had my first pony, so all in all I do pick up, open, check smell, colour and consistancy of my horses poo daily! and still groom my horse with the white glove in mind! LOL

I gave up horses for 15 years - yes guys that does make me a MIDDLE AGED WOMAN! I was then given the most challenging horse I have ever had - thank you Soooooooo much!  He would orbit the moon if a bee farted! - no exaggeration there folks!  I am NOT afraid of my horse, just aware of my own mortality and vulnerability, and do not enjoy being catapulted out of the saddle and projected into outer-space!

I had never heard of Parelli, nor any "natural horsemanship" before I was a fan of Pat Smythe - only ever saw her smack a horse once!  My horses reputation went before him (my life went before my eyes!) and I was introduced to Parelli - let the journey begin!

I have pongoed on one end of my rope with my horse pirouetting on the other tripped over my rope, poked myself in my eyes with my carrot stick, whacked myself round my head with the end of my rope - but what the hell, the system does work!

The results I have experienced with this horse are amazing!  I truley would advise anyone who has a love of horses - and I guess that is everyone reading this site!  At least investigate it, I never realised the terrible things we unwittingly do to our horses, how forgiving they are.  I honestly believe there will not be many people out there who would not learn something, and I am not saying this is the only good natural horsemanship style, because it isn't.  There are loads out there, and they all have something to offer.  I am just saying for me, this has opened my eyes.  It is a journey about the person, with ways to enable you to build confidence up in your horse quickly, there is another way to resolve issues like, bucking, rearing, bolting, rushing fences, claustrophobia, and yes, the famous trailer loading, and if the program is adhered to it works really well, and I don't bash my horse with the carrot stick, he would bash me right back! LOL 

Try to get to the conference, if you have the slightest interest, they will explain far better than I can, it really isn't expensive, you could get 6 cinema tickets for the same price, and I guarantee you wouldn't learn half as much, nor have so much fun!


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## Skhosu (24 May 2007)

but.if you're doing all these things, what is happening on the other end?
Maybe it gets calmer horses because the owners do  so many silly things the horses have to be?
I don't like how many people are talking about how silly they were then they began, recipe for disaster?


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## dicey (25 May 2007)

I actually would have more respect for someone than to call them "silly", however, consider this, would a horse become calmer because the rider has accidently pulled it in the mouth? or lost balance going round a Xcountry course causing the horse to loose its balance, or been over-encouraged to get a move on or clear the next fence?

I am sure the majority of riders can look back over their careers (or play-times) and remember at least one or two instances where they "could have done better".


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## Shilasdair (25 May 2007)

Hi HDT
I'm sorry, I didn't understand your post.  Did you mean the BHS Horse Owner certificate is available through Home Study?  I think it's aimed at new horse owners to ensure that they know how to feed, groom, worm, look after their ponies safely.
But what did you mean by 'However I can't see anyone being interested [in the BHS course?] as Pat's Home Study Course was slandered by many on here.'?
New horse owners, I believe, need help from somewhere but probably they'd be better off having face to face lessons, don't you agree?
Having been asked by new owners 'Excuse me, is this hay or straw?' it shows how much room there is for confusion.
What, if I may ask, HDT, is a Parelli Co-ordinator?
S


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## magicmoose (25 May 2007)

Parelli (Community) Co-ordinator, or CoCo is a term that was used by the previous Parelli distributors in the UK, before the company morphed into Equine Ethology. It has no real relevance any more, although the ex-CoCos are generally still students of the Parelli programme.


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## JoeJoe (25 May 2007)

I apologies in advance for the length of this post as by the time you get this far through the postings, you are probably exhausted.

PNH interested me when Pat first came over to the UK.  I bought the kit and tried it to see how useful it could be.  I have also spent time with PNH students, trainers and horses since then. 

It is an entirely different animal to the traditional training found in the BHS, Pony Club and classical schools (which were the foundation of my own riding and training).  It is an entirely different animal to the way most highly skilled and educated horse riders and trainers relate to their competition horses, where their, soundness, performance and specific results are used to judge success. 

Do not try to compare the two, as if they have the same aims and agendas.  

PNH  is not the same, no matter how much it is dressed up and no matter how much Linda, in particular, tries to move closer (in terms of technique and equipment)  to the very activity that she and Pat have criticized and ridiculed over the years.   Dressage!    
Of course the equipment and techniques that she is now having to accept as legitimate and helpful, in order to do her version of dressage, are probably being given PNH names to keep it Natural. 

For some reason, when I think of PNH it makes me think of the story of the Emperor and his new clothes. How Interesting..

It certainly does have to be admired for the way it has created a sense of belonging in thousands of individual horse owners around the world who either dont want to join in with the main stream or who lack the ability keep up.   This indicates serious shortcomings in the way that organisations like the  Pony Club and the BHS work, because these people should have found support and comradeship there..   They didnt and so looked for and found it elsewhere. 

Aspects of the Seven Games ground-work, can be used as an effective and helpful tool for certain horses, particularly helping a horse re-think a problem from a different perspective.  Therefore, it makes sense for trainers to be open to looking for and making use of the useful tools that can be found within PNH.   They do exist if used wisely.  So, it isnt all bad and there is no doubt that there are many people who know that PNH has helped them to overcome problems that no-one else was helping them with. 

However, where things go seriously awry for horses is that PNH ever got involved in telling people how to ride, beyond keeping them safe.   I have seen too many young horses (6 and7yrs) who are broken down, lame and defeated through being pushed through the levels programme by riders who are desperate to get their progress string of a different colour. 

Too many hours of being ridden on a loose rein and a loose rider when the paces are so unbalanced, that the horse is practically falling over.   I was disturbed by the fact that it was accepted within the programme, that the first horse someone took through the levels would sometimes end up literally broken.  They even had a term for it.the sacrificial lamb.   The horse that was discarded, in the interests of getting the rider through the levels.  Surely any system of training and riding that does damage to horses in this way needs to be questioned. 

Our horses will go where we lead them if the training is consistent and positive enough, so they rely on us to choose the right path. 

Good riding is based on addressing the horses health, soundness and comfort through respecting physics and the way its body works in conjunction with a methodical and consistent way of working with their minds.  It protects the horse from riding induced injury and makes a horse more versatile and confident for all disciplines by paying attention to the quality of its movement.    It is the foundation of Classical and Competition dressage, which can and is, done badly at times, but has the advantage that, even when done only reasonably well, which is within the grasp of most riders, it makes it safer and more comfortable for the horse to participate. 

Hands up if you love horses, works well as a sound-bite but rings a little hollow for me because of all the PNH training, under saddle, that I have seen, it only seems to reach a point of doing a little actual harm when done at its very best and can be positively destructive when done any other way.  Unfortunately, a lot of its followers are stuck at a level where their horses are physically compromised when ridden.  

So, you make your choice and you deal with the consequences.both good and bad, and for goodness sake, when considering your options and how far down any path you take your horse, lets have a bit of respect for our own history of treating and training horses well in the UK.  

The grass often looks greener on the other side, but may give you terrible indigestion if you eat too much!


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## aimeerose (25 May 2007)

well put!


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## spaniel (25 May 2007)

Applauds JoeJoe.


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## Talan (25 May 2007)

Yes JoJo!
That is why a lot of people moved away from Parelli (and there could be other reasons of course).  And it's why I get frustrated by all of NH being categorised with Parelli.  There are NH trainers, even some who come to the UK, who are much more concerned with having the horses interests at heart.  These trainers link the groundwork directly to ridden skills, and do not accept horses slopping around on loose reins doing "patterns", but teach students to have them working correctly and softlt from the start.  I saw Ken Faulkner riding recently, and certainly from what I saw he seems to have moved a long, long way from Parelli - and for the best.  Another who I saw at a clinic last year would be Steve Halfpenny.  These are both people who worked in the Parelli programme and moved on.  I only saw a short demo of Ken Faulkner working, so I haven't seen him teach.  I watched Halfpenny teach though, and there wasn't any horses whacked round the head with a clip in the clinic, in fact most ropes had no clips on.  Now I come to think of it, there were no escalating phases of pressure and hitting horses hard with sticks at all.
So - there are trainers out there who are "NH" in style, but very different from Parelli, and I think in a good way.  Just please H+H'ers - don't tar all with the Parelli brush.


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## Tina33 (25 May 2007)

Joe Joe, Excellent post!!!


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## najat (25 May 2007)

Have just managed to wade my way through all these posts!  Many people on here have already stated my views on Parelli...not for me, too expensive and doesn't sit right with me playing games!!  (someone said pages ago - it is for people too scared to ride - I agree!)

But have to say that Joe Joe's post was excellent....although the idea of the 'sacrificial lamb' is terrifying and disgusting!


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## dicey (25 May 2007)

or too sensible to put their lives at risk?!


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## suestowford (25 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
  This indicates serious shortcomings in the way that organisations like the  Pony Club and the BHS work, because these people should have found support and comradeship there..   They didnt and so looked for and found it elsewhere. 


[/ QUOTE ]

Careful JoeJoe, you will be getting an insulting letter from Patrick Print!


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## Tierra (25 May 2007)

I swore I wouldnt stick my nose back into this thread again as generally it angered me, but 3 cheers for your post JoeJoe... its one of the most sensible on this thread


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## HDT (25 May 2007)

The angriest voice here , I don't think so...far from it, just because I use tact, don't get angry and start slagging people's beliefs and basically have an opinion does NOT make me have the angriest voice, in fact one post said little but spoke in volumes when saying  "HDT Well Said"  

oh and I have many many friends outdside of Parelli and inside the sytem..

Chill out....

As for being a bit strong yes I have my points of view but I don't slag other sytems off , moan about their high charges and go on and on about somehting I don't know anything about.

It would be like me going on an eventing forum and complaining aobut the way horses are jumped over huge fences and the osts of training and the prices of a good equipment etc


If you read everything I have said again and not just what oyu wanted to read then you woll see I often mention that I say I use both methods traditionadn natural and that in the right hands and used correctly both have good points and in the wrong hands have bad points.

Just because I give an opinion does not make a post strong unless the reader himself herself feels threatens by it.

If they do feel threatened ...why.....

The ones that seem to be getting angry with strong posts come across as the ones against Parelli.


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## najat (25 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
or too sensible to put their lives at risk?! 

[/ QUOTE ]

So I guess they also stay firmly in bed then as you are more likely to get run over and killed then you are falling from a horse!


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## Barbacus (25 May 2007)

This discussion forum makes the most fantastic reading. Ive been hooked for days and have laughed, recoiled, chuckled and made lots of teeth sucking noises at some of the more derisive comments and also applauded some of the intelligent and reasoned arguments that are being put forward to make this a true debate. I bet the H&amp;H Admin Team hid when they clicked the post button on this topic. The fact that this level of interest in this discussion even exists shows some indication of the effect that Parelli is having in this country. In 1999, when I saw my first demo, if youd said What do you think of Parelli most people would have replied Whats Parelli??  Dont they make tyres??

Since that time the Parelli brand has exploded onto the scene in a really huge way and I dont even think they predicted how successful it would be. Given that nothing like this had even been done before (home study packs that teach horsemanship skills) there were obviously some failings in the programme that will have only come to light once it was taken up and exposed to interpretation by thousands of different people. I believe that Pat and Linda are taking on board the feedback and criticisms they receive and are working to refine the programme to encompass improvements that lessen the risk of misinterpretation by students and are currently redirecting it into a learning programme that focuses more on developing the depth of knowledge and insight in students before teaching them ever increasing levels of techniques and tasks. I am looking forward to attending their conference in August at Solihull to see how their programme has developed to incorporate the many valid and reasoned arguments put forward about the shortcomings in their system.

If I could offer my own thoughts to this discussion it is that there is so much to learn from all good horsemen and women and they come in all shapes and sizes, from all different sorts of disciplines and backgrounds and teach under all types of brands and labels. I think an earlier post talked about good horsemanship and bad horsemanship and I think this really is the essence of what we are all discussing here. I have seen, and still see, some pretty poor examples of horsemanship (including Parelli), across the broad spectrum that exists in this country, but I also see some truly excellent and inspirational horsemanship from all sorts of trainers, teachers and competitors and it would be wrong for anyone to dismiss any of them as having nothing to teach us or add to our portfolio of knowledge, skills and attitudes just because they are unfamiliar to us. I honestly dont think it matters what you do or dont wear, what type of stick you use, or what you do or dont put on your horses head, its the essence of why youre doing it, having a just and fair approach and intrinsic love for your horse that matters. As long as these things are in place your horse knows it and youll have a great partnership. 

I know Im fortunate in the fact that I have had the opportunity to study with many excellent horsemanship teachers, including Pat and Linda Parelli, and I thank them regularly for the insight and tools that their programme has given me. I hope that the influences of good horsemanship continue to improve and progress all the training systems we have available to us in this country and I welcome the Parelli team to Stoneleigh.


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## Sparklet (25 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I never realised the terrible things we unwittingly do to our horses, how forgiving they are. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Just out of interest, what were the terrible things that you unwhittingly did to your horse pre-Parelli?

Am I right in thinking that you event your horse, how has Parelli made a difference to the way you approach the three phases?

Sorry for all the questions I just wanted to know a bit more about it all.


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## tiga7592 (25 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Careful JoeJoe, you will be getting an insulting letter from Patrick Print!  

[/ QUOTE ] 

Little known fact No 999....Patrick Print is a supporter of Natural Horsemanship and organized a BHS Instructors Conference on the subject a couple of years ago which was very well received. It was presented by Dave Stuart and Charlotte Dennis who were, at that time, Parelli Instructors.


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## Shilasdair (25 May 2007)

Tiga 7592 says
'It was presented by Dave Stuart and Charlotte Dennis who were, at that time, Parelli Instructors. '
Why do the (previously apparently evangelical) Parelli Instructors quit Parelli?
I'm only curious as I've heard this of a lot of ex-Parelli people who start to distance themselves...
S


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## HDT (25 May 2007)

The Reason Dave and Charlotte decided not to sign their contract was to set up a business of Natural Horsemanship of their own. 
They opened up a yard which not only incorporated Natural Horsemanship but dressage and showjumping events as well.

Unfortunately the business falied to take off and a year later the premises were up for sale.   Dave and Charlotte continue to hold courses and I often receive emails advertising them.

I may be wrong but I think one reson for setting up independantly is to make a better living rather than only teaching. It's not an unusal thing to do as many people in may jobs decide to branch out on their own.


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## SavvyHorse (25 May 2007)

I personally think people leave so they can just do their own Horsemanship thing and from a lot of people's attitude towards Parelli itself I think they find they can reach other students who may have a negative attitude to PNH itself by being just NH instructors.

Also when they leave Parelli they can incorporate other things in their curiculum ie. natural healing or barefoot trimming, alternative treatments etc which when you're a PNH Instructor you cannot do. 

Just my opinion though!


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## HDT (25 May 2007)

Yeah that is true, as a licensed instructor you have to follow certain rules. Dunno what they are though.


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## silversox (25 May 2007)

I've just had a call from my friend who keeps her horse at Alden Livery, Upton, Nr. Didcot who tells me that there is a Parelli demonstration there tomorrow, Sat. 26th. 

Now I've always been open minded about these different techniques and as I don't ride anymore I can be less biased than some, so tomorrow I shall see for myself.  

Apparently my friend's horse is being used as part of the demonstration and that'll be fun!!  She bought it as a quiet hack but it turned out to be slightly more 'forward going' than she expected!! She is quite a nervous rider and although she has had the animal nearly a year, she still hasn't cantered it!! It dosn't help that it used to be driven and starts pacing as soon as she applies the aids to canter!  

Like I said, I shall go there with an open mind...... and my camera.


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## Tina33 (26 May 2007)

I copied the paragraph below from this week's Parelii E-news.  Apparently they have won a big marketing award.   It struck me that this is what they do best.  Not that there is anything wrong with that, they should be proud.  As consumers we should remember this award  when they suggest that we absolutely must have only their equipment to be successful.  They are brilliant marketers and have the awards to prove it!

From the e-news:
The Savvy Club Members Website and Liberty &amp; Horse Behavior Home Study Program were entered into a competition called the All Industry Marketing (AIM) Awards. This competition honors the best Marketing (advertising and PR) and Publishing work in the equine and western lifestyle industry. The national awards ceremony was held May 19th in Scottsdale, Arizona and Parelli Natural Horsemanship won big!


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## Tinypony (26 May 2007)

"Why do the (previously apparently evangelical) Parelli Instructors quit Parelli?"
I know the answer to this, in the case of some.  You need to understand what the Parelli organisation was like when it first started. Pat P was in Australian and invited certain trainers to join him.  Some declined, some accepted.  (And more joined around the world in the following years).  Imagine you live in the middle of nowhere on your Aussie property, you are studying the Parelli programme, which consists of a list of tasks that you have to demonstrate to pass each level.  It was that basic.  These experienced horsemen demonstrated the tasks, posted off the vid, and back came their certificate.  It didn't mean they were doing things the way Pat would, but it demonstrated their skills.  At that time you could become a Parelli instructor without even attending a lesson with Pat.  My friend Irena Halfpenny was an instructor and only ever attended one clinic with him (she's a quiet little person and didn't like it).  So many of the original and early instructors were experienced and skilled horse people in their own right.
As the Parelli organisation grew, study packs were produced etc, there was a need for them to make sure they had some quality control and standardisation of what was being done in their name.  Some instructors were told to change the way they taught as a result.  It took a while, but the restrictions on what they could do, added to the rules and regs about where and when they could teach, and the commission Parelli would take, and the demands of Pat, sometimes at short notice, to drop everything and go for a meeting with him... I think you can imagine how they started to feel.  So, a lot of them left.  It's as simple as that.  Some left by not going to a meeting that was called, and were then "sacked" - but that is really a case of did they jump or were they pushed.  
There's not anything sinister in why the instructors left, and still do.  There's not anything sinister about why people like me leave either, I just decided that it wasn't for me, I didn't like some aspects of what was taught, and moved on.


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## Fluke (26 May 2007)

So what do I think about Parelli? Quite simply, the best thing I have ever done for my horse!
I have a traditional horsey background, no different from thousands of other people - pony club and countless hours spent mucking out at my local riding school, a few years away from horses whilst at college then taking on two horses and working through my BHS stages. I also spent some time working for an event rider and competed successfully at local level dressage. 
I first came across Parelli in the late 90's when Your Horse ran a series of articles and thought 'why on earth does anyone want to use a bright orange stick?', and carried on as I had before. 
Parelli then came to me at the insistance of a very challenging young horse I had bought to event. Whatever I asked and however I asked it, she opposed me. In this instance traditional advice (which seemed to boil down to 'dont let her get away with it') failed me and I was told by well meaning friends that it wasnt me, it was the horse and to sell her. I was at my wits end and at this point was introduced to the Parelli program. 
The information provided was a revelation. Suddenly everything made sense and I knew I had found a way forward. She made huge changes  (so did I!!!) and became the lovely horse I always knew she was. From being a person who was often in the tack shop checking out the latest training aid to see if it offered the answers I was seeking, I changed to someone who realised the only training aid I needed to improve was the one between my ears. The equipment I bought when I began Parelli in May 2000 is still going strong and as good as new, and as I no longer have 2 to 3 lessons a week at £25 a pop, I can easily afford to participate in  Parelli clinics.
For those of you who are fortunate to already have an excellent relationship with your horse and the natural ability to know what they need, when the need it and why they need it, then I am truly happy for you, but please dont knock those of us who follow a slightly different path from the norm. We're all here because we love our horses and we all want a good relationship with our happy, confident, responsive, supple and athletic horse.


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## dicey (26 May 2007)

FLUKE -   excellently, and very eloquently put!

That goes for me too!

I REST MY CASE!


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## dicey (26 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
or too sensible to put their lives at risk?! 

[/ QUOTE ]

So I guess they also stay firmly in bed then as you are more likely to get run over and killed then you are falling from a horse! 

[/ QUOTE ]          

Death could be a happy release, words almost fail me for your unbelieveable ignorance, and nievity.

Almost not worth the effort to reply, but just to give you SOME idea, how about having your horse leap onto or even into a vehicle?  That can be pretty devastating for both horse and rider, doesn't mean either of you will die, but you could both be crippled for life.   Fancy having to have someone wipe your backside for the rest of your life - not so funny now eh?

Or may be you just loose a foot - ah well, still got another one.

Or perhaps with a little time, thought, intelligence and a bit of assistance from the Parelli program it is possible to reduce the risks of that happening, along with all the other accidents that (incidently there is another discussion on in H &amp; H) are apparently on the increase.


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## RuthR (26 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
or too sensible to put their lives at risk?! 

[/ QUOTE ]

So I guess they also stay firmly in bed then as you are more likely to get run over and killed then you are falling from a horse! 

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how you can say that.  If you don't have any confidence problems then I'm happy for you.  I have suffered all my life with lack of self confidence, even around people.  Add that to a horse who landed me in hospital pre-parelli because he spooked and double barrelled me in the chest as I was just try to put his halter on in the field I became very fearful of my horse.

Horse riding is a dangerous sport - as pointed out H&amp;H has reported about the investigation into deaths at 3 day events.  But even hacking out down the road can end in tradegdy - I ended up in a right old state just trying to catch my horse.  If I believe that Parelli helps me minimise the risk of injury to me and my horse why shouldn't I be allowed to do what I want and what makes me and my horse feel happy and safe with each other.

since doing Parelli (touch wood) I've not had any serious accidents (I've being doing it 4 years now) - compare that to falling off nearly everytime I rode my horse when having traditional lessons and I think I'm much safer now (to the point where we have even started some jumping).  Like I say if you don't feel you need it - fine; but don't belittle people who want do go through the process to make themselves a little bit safer.


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## mystiandsunny (26 May 2007)

Parelli, or any other NH programme can help someone who doesn't have the knowledge/experience to work through certain behaviour problems themselves, and who cannot find a competent instructor to show them how.

Yet for the minority who STILL insist that everyone should do Parelli regardless because otherwise they have a **** relationship with their horse, no one answered my earlier question.

In the case of a horse-human relationship, where the horse picked the human, where is the need for Parelli?  This is a pony who for 'her' human is a little angel, looking after him when he rides her, respecting him, following him around, whinnying to him when he arrives, guarding him if he falls off (seems to be mostly in the school - he's never managed it out hacking, is still novicey so sometimes does just lose his balance as we've had a long time saddle-less so has been walk, trot, canter bareback).  All the time she watches him.  If he wants to teach her something her attention is totally focused and she works hard to do her very best, and if he's cross with her.... there is no greater punishment than to have 'your' human tell you off verbally (in her eyes).


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## gemmah (26 May 2007)

To Many: Matthew chptr 7 vs 1-5   <font color="purple">  </font>


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## phaseone (26 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Parelli, or any other NH programme can help someone who doesn't have the knowledge/experience to work through certain behaviour problems themselves, and who cannot find a competent instructor to show them how.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gosh Bronya  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 where does that leave those who are acomplished experts in their field, such as Karen and David O Connor, Luis Lucio? Don't good horsemen keep searching for more knowledge? An even better way to achieve something? Isn't that what all high achievers do? Why shouldn't ordinary horse folk be the same? Most people who are signed up Parelli students are normal working people with families, who enjoy horses for a hobby. 

[ QUOTE ]
Yet for the minority who STILL insist that everyone should do Parelli regardless because otherwise they have a **** relationship with their horse, no one answered my earlier question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I can remember anyone here saying that everyone should do it and if they don't, they'll have a less rewarding relationship with their horse. Personally, I don't care at all what other people do.


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## gemmah (26 May 2007)

Barbacus! GoodCall!! Standing ovation to you!!!


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## silversox (26 May 2007)

Well, I went along today, to watch the first session of two, as I said I would, with an open mind.  There were 6 horses in the arena each standing with his owner waiting to start at 9.30am.  I was reasonably impressed with Neil Pye's introduction but found that an hour and a half intro. became rather tedious and we were all beginning to fidget.  

The rest of the morning he explained the initial 'join-up' or play and those taking part found that they were having reasonable success with their horses.  We stopped for lunch at 12.30 for a tasty barbeque which was well received by the six owners who had been standing, more or less in the same place, for over 3 hours.  So by then nerves were getting rather fraught and I was becoming impatient to see some 'real' technique being used with some positive results.

The demonstration started again at 2pm with the same 6 horses and owners and I'm afraid, IMO, it went downhill from there-on.  I can't see the point of someone kindly bringing their horse along to be used as a 'guinea-pig' and which is quite head-shy, for it to be clouted on the muzzle with the orange stick, several times, because he wouldn't take a step back when the rope was shaken at him?  

Quite a few spectators were not happy with this approach and I for one didn't think it achieved anything.  I'm all for using 'natural' training methods and clouting a head-shy horse on the nose isn't one of them.  Neil Pye's argument for using this technique was that loose horses together in a field will use the same method to reprimand each other.  Sorry, but I thinks it's  b******s.

So, I went, I saw and I discussed it and now I have dismissed
it.  There's an old saying - 'Each to his own' so I wouldn't try to put anyone else off this method but it's not for me.

I shall probably get slated now!!!!


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## jen1 (27 May 2007)

Have had a go with my young bolshy cob and it has certainly helped me to get him to move around and go backwards (me on the ground) It's also nice spending time with him on the ground and not just lunging. It's just something different to do and for my horse to think about.

I do agree thought that the equipment is very expensive for what it is, luckally I can borrow from a friend. Being on a very strict budget (as i think many horse owners are) I am surprised at the cost of it all. I was thinking of going to the demo later in the year but just can't afford it!

Anyway that's just my opinion!!!


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## phaseone (27 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I went along today, to watch the first session of two, as I said I would, with an open mind.  There were 6 horses in the arena each standing with his owner waiting to start at 9.30am.  I was reasonably impressed with Neil Pye's introduction but found that an hour and a half intro. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your account of the event dun4. You should nnot fear being slated for simply giving your view on something, unless of course, it breaks some kind of law LOL.

I went to a day demo and got quite bored too, though it wasn't a Parelli one. It was an equine ethology one. Dave and Charlotte had ceased to be Parelli instructors for some time before it became clear to all that Parelli was over in the UK for a while. Anyway, there was a lot of talking there too, but I expected that. Then there was the demo. Not massively impressive but I did learn two new things. It was not fun place for children and many people were bored. For me though, I still have that knowledge from the day so it was worth it.

My question about the headshy horse is, did the 'whole' approach they used work? Did the horse show any positive change? Obviously we weren't there and couldn't see why the horse was smacked.

Parelli teaches safety first around horses and people learn how to recognise safety issues and behaviour which might lead to danger. Blocking techniques are tought. These came in handy for a friend of mine whose horse would have killed her due to his dominance and insecurity, had she not known how to get him off her, and I mean, OFF her. He never needed more than a phase three instruction though, to alter his plans. He is now a less mentally challenged horse that can be ridden out. For years he was dangerous (ex-race horse).

So, knowing why the technique was used is useful too. I would hope to never, ever smack my horse in the face. That's my veiw.  But I do 'drive' his head using my hands or stick when we are playing together. No contact is made using this technique and phase one is usually all that is needed for my horse.

Good that you actually went to the demo. What did your friend think about it?


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## phaseone (27 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I As consumers we should remember this award  when they suggest that we absolutely must have only their equipment to be successful.  They are brilliant marketers and have the awards to prove it!


[/ QUOTE ]

In business speak Parelli students are referred to as passionate consumers, or something like that. On the up side, if you manage to hook one, you are likely to keep them as they are focused and commited. On the down side, they know what they want and although they are loyal, they do leave if not satisfied.

Parelli goes to great lengths to ensure they listen to the wishes of their target group. They DO listen. The reason we now have an International Savvy Club is because the students wrote letter after letter asking to be supported directly by the team in the USA. Some of you may not know that UK student were unable to join the Savvy Club until just over a year ago, due to legal matters being resolved. Maybe this makes us UK students extra passionate  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 as a result of all the troubles.

Parelli means quality, good presentation and good packaging. It is the same at conferences. Sessions are long in the planning and presentations as polished as they can be. I go just to hear Pat tell story after story using a lot of humour but always a good measure of horse sense.

There's nothing wrong with providing a good service. I don't buy everything they provide. No one actually does. For a long time I made my own equipment, but Parelli equipment is great quality. 

One thing I will do though, is buy the new level three pack if one gets produced.


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## Tinypony (27 May 2007)

Thanks very much Dun4, that has confirmed some things for me.  A few Parelli students have told me that things have "changed" when I had said that a phase 4 can be very harsh, and horses get hit around the head.  Obviously I am still current in my thinking.
Can you just clarify two things.  You mention the "join up" - can you explain a bit more, because people will think that means chasing a horse in a round pen, and the Parelli people wouldn't have been doing that would they?
Also, was this a demo or a clinic?  Was it maybe a level 1 clinic, day 1, with people being taught to use the techniques?
I organise NH clinics, but we tend to do the talking bit sitting down at the start and end of the day, not with our horses stood about for ages.  Then people will stop to watch what is going on, maybe things will be explained as we go along, but not stood about for 1 1/2 hours!  I think I'd have collapsed.  Probably my horse too...


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## tiga7592 (27 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 There were 6 horses in the arena each standing with his owner waiting to start at 9.30am. I was reasonably impressed with Neil Pye's introduction but found that an hour and a half intro. became rather tedious and we were all beginning to fidget........the six owners who had been standing, more or less in the same place, for over 3 hours  

[/ QUOTE ] 

Part of this process which you describe as tedious is about getting the owners to spend 'undemanding time' with their horses which improves the relationship. 

 [ QUOTE ]
 I was becoming impatient to see some 'real' technique being used with some positive results.


[/ QUOTE ] 

You were seeing it, you just weren't recognising it.

 [ QUOTE ]
Neil Pye's argument for using this technique was that loose horses together in a field will use the same method to reprimand each other. Sorry, but I thinks it's b******s  

[/ QUOTE ] 

You apparently haven't spent much time watching herds of horses then.


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## Tinypony (27 May 2007)

"Part of this process which you describe as tedious is about getting the owners to spend 'undemanding time' with their horses which improves the relationship."
I do think that's a bit of new-Parelli clap-trap.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




  They've introduced a lot more of this sort of stuff since Stephanie Burns got involved in the new programme.  And who's to say that these owners didn't already spend "undemanding time" with their horses?
So - Neil hits the horses on the nose with a stick, and feels that reflects the behaviour of horses in the herd?  Is that right?
Just thinking a bit more.  I think this sort of demonstrates the sort of thing that makes people unhappy about Parelli.  First, why does your horse need to back up from a stick being tapped on the leadrope?  Why isn't it enough to be able to send them back from you a bit if you need space in front of you, and back them from the halter when standing alongside?  And when these horses get their backup, and the trainer immediately stops to reward them - what did they look like in the instant they went back?  I know that most of the time they back up with their heads in the air and with their necks tight.  These horses are being taught to move incorrectly, and not using their bodies in the way that is physically best for them.  (As Ken Faulkner said the other week "tense muscles break").  This incorrect movement continues throughout the programme and can be seen even in the horses of level 3 students.
The long term aim of all of this is supposed to be about ridden work.  So why not teach them to use themselves well from the start?  (Instead of accepting any backup in level 2, impulsion in level 2 and then try to get refinement in level 3...).  I'm an NH person, and if I have a horse backing up I don't expect it to just back up any old how, I want it to soften the head and neck down into a nice shape (outline) and then step back smoothly, putting the weight back on the hind end. That's because I have a longer-term goal about riding. And riding bitless - in collection.   And I want my horses working in a physically beneficial way, not startled into tense movement.  I train this from day 1, which I think is much fairer on them.


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## Tinypony (27 May 2007)

Oh dear... I meant (Instead of accepting any backup in level 1, expecting impulsion in level 2 and then try to get refinement in level 3...)


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## mystiandsunny (27 May 2007)

Just because people are good riders, does not mean that they are good horsemen/women.  Even more so for professionals who do not have much of a chance to bond with their horses.  They'll get them and be expected to jump on and go, when they don't feed them or look after them and they've only just met the horse.  Something like Parelli can work as a fast track for the horse/rider to get to know each other.

There were a few posts further back that suggested that anyone not doing Parelli had a rubbish relationship with their horse - go back and read the thread if you wish to find them.

Oh, and anyone who knows already how to do something won't bother looking for a better way to do it, unless their current one is time consuming or something prevents them from using it.  They will also pick and choose from any programme that helps - I seriously doubt that those professionals mentioned ride in the horse-harming way that is recommended, with the horse on the forehand and the rider sitting in a chair seat.  They will use what helps them and ditch the rest - if they didn't, they'd not be able to compete as well as doing it...


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## phaseone (27 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
There were a few posts further back that suggested that anyone not doing Parelli had a rubbish relationship with their horse - go back and read the thread if you wish to find them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely you would know which posts you were referring to yourself Bronya? Perhaps you should be prepared to identify the relevant posts or not pass comment. It is all too easy to generalise. 

I have indeed read the entire thread but apart from what seem like defensive, knee jerk comments -which would be understandable given the red rag being waved merrily in front of some of them- I cannot see anything which suggests that non Parelli horsemanship leads to a rubbish relationship.


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## sam67 (27 May 2007)

A bit off topic, but I have recently applied to buy into a franchise which will help me to help kids that have learning difficulties.

The cost of me being able to use the name and to do two weeks training is £20,000, then on top of that I have to attend further courses and pay for tht information.

At first I felt that this was an awful lot of money, but then I thought about it, and at the end of the day I will be getting 35yrs experience at my fingertips, I will also be able to earn a living from it and will probably earn back the £20,000 within two years.

Although I appreciate that the PNH sounds like a lot of money but you will get all of Pats knowledge without having to put in the time and money that he has done to get this far.

I am not for or against PNH just thought I would add my bit.


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## asbo (27 May 2007)

what do i think about parelli????????


not much


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## silversox (27 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks very much Dun4, that has confirmed some things for me.  A few Parelli students have told me that things have "changed" when I had said that a phase 4 can be very harsh, and horses get hit around the head.  Obviously I am still current in my thinking.
Can you just clarify two things.  You mention the "join up" - can you explain a bit more, because people will think that means chasing a horse in a round pen, and the Parelli people wouldn't have been doing that would they?
Also, was this a demo or a clinic?  Was it maybe a level 1 clinic, day 1, with people being taught to use the techniques?
I organise NH clinics, but we tend to do the talking bit sitting down at the start and end of the day, not with our horses stood about for ages.  Then people will stop to watch what is going on, maybe things will be explained as we go along, but not stood about for 1 1/2 hours!  I think I'd have collapsed.  Probably my horse too...  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I used the term 'join-up' incorrectly, perhaps I should have called it phase one, where the owners are taught initial techniques using Neil Pye's equipment, such as leading the horses around on loose 12' ropes attached to his halters.  I think it was a level one clinic, day 1, which was completely free to all, including the barbeque, hosted by the owner/proprietor of Alden Livery.  Those taking part stood around for THREE hours in the morning and another TWO in the afternoon.  

The horse in question, (a rehab. racehorse) would not take a step back when his owner was tapping and then banging the rope.  It stood there, eyes boggling, head right up, neck rock hard and appeared to be trembling.  Neil took hold of the rope and warned the horse, twice, by hitting it's rope with the orange stick; when it still refused to move he banged it pretty hard on the muzzle.  He repeated this exercise several times with a negative result.  The only other result (I have heard since) was that not only did some spectators query this practice but two of them walked out.

I must admit that by then I was getting pretty fed up so said my goodbyes and left, leaving my friend and five others still standing in the arena with pretty stiff backs and very bored horses, except of course for the TB who was still trying to make out what was being asked of him.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





I did take some pics. but I don't think I had better put them on here.

As far as Tiga7592's comments are concerned, I have been around horses for well over 50 years, and yes I have studied them in a herd environment - our TB stallion used to run with his mares and I sat up in the fields for hours at a time watching the mares foaling and rearing their young, with the stallion grazing with them.  He was a brilliant Dad to them all and taught them manners by nipping them if they were doing wrong, but we are just a bit more intelligent than horses and we know that it is totally wrong for US to hit horses anywhere around the head, don't we?

IMO I would think twice about spending £20,000 on training fees etc. to become qualified.  IMO this Parelli technique is a well marketed fad which will soon be recognised for what it is - a good little earner with hard-up horse-lovers left to count the cost. IMO  !!!


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## HDT (27 May 2007)

I'm surprised at Neil Pye as you say "Hitting the horse hard on the nose" Was it really as hard as you say or did it just look like it was? How did the horse react? Just asking as I wasn't there to see it and I'm just trying to see it from all angles.

Usually the steps are Phase 1 - wigggle your finger which does not move the rope.

Phase 2 - wiggle your wrist which wiggles the line slightly

Phase 3  - wiggle the arm from the elbow - this causes the line to move a lot more and usually this is all you need,

There is a phase 4 which is using you entire arm which again creates more movement in the line.

Phase 4 can also be phase 3 backed up with marching strides or tapping the horse with the carrot stick on the chest.

Also using your energy helps. I myself have not hit a horse on the nose to get it to back up.

I would love to hear others people's comments about this as it is concerning and I am sure Neil Pye would not be wanting to be giving out the wrong messages.

Reading the feedback makes me intrigued and I would like to go and watch and see what is happening.

Regards the hour and 30min of talking at the start I too get bored of this. Not may I add because the talking is boring but because I have a low attention span and my mind wanders. However at the last course I organised I disciplined myself and listened to what was being said and you know what? The time flew and it was all interesting and intriguing what was being said.
Mind I was sitting down, I don't think my legs could take standing for that length of time.

I do know a friend who said she was going so I'll email her and see what she thought of the demo.



Unfortunatley I didn't go along because with not seeing my two horses for 2 weeks due to a collapsed lung saturday was the first day back at the yard which was more important to me. I am thinking of going in June though if I don't have anyhting booked.


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## SirenaXVI (27 May 2007)

Started to write a whole diatribe about my thoughts on Parelli and really just can't be bothered - in a nutshell I feel Parelli is:

A good way for people to make money from other people who do not have good old fashioned horsesense, sadly a few horses suffer along the way.


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## StrawberryFish (27 May 2007)

Blumming heck - I'm sure admin regret asking this question now....


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## Tinypony (27 May 2007)

HDT - you are describing the phases of the Yo Yo game aren't you?  This one where they tap the rope for backward is different.  I suppose it's more like a version of the driving game...  And I still don't see the point of it.
I'm still amused by the idea of owners and horses stood about in an arena for hours as a way to spend "undemanding time" together.  I wonder how much it does for the horses?  I suspect they'd rather spend their undemanding time eating grass.
It's a shame when people come away from dems and clincs having been put off by things like this.  I know it makes some Parelli students cringe.  There are those out there who, whatever their instructor might do, would never hit their horse around the face.


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## JoyceM (27 May 2007)

Brilliant! Been doing it for about 6 years. Had my doubts at the beginning but I've been progressively more convinced the more I've done.
Cost has been a problem for me but I've managed, and everything I've bought is still going strong.
I'm sure a lot of it is commonsense, but unfortunately this kind of sense is not common to enough people.
As with most things there is a lot of prejudice because people often object to something that they feel is criticising what they already do. Criticism is not the Parelli aim, trying to improve a person's understanding of the horse is its purpose.
That can't be bad.


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## HUSfan (28 May 2007)

HI everyone, skimmed threw alot of pages here. I am not a Parelli fan. I know several people who are. I get so frustrated watching them. More then half of them need to send their horse to a proper trainer to teach it some manners.  I know one lady who has a 8 year old gelding that she tip toes around and is totally afraid of. She pays $35 an hour once a week for a Paralli wanna-be to ride the nasty thing. It is 8 and only been rode once a week for 6 years because they don't want to push it and blow his mind. It has not been taught to tie yet. It takes 3 people just to saddle it. 

This is natural horsemanship, no thank you!!


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## mystiandsunny (28 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, your horse does 'like' you though, he just could'nt give a rats arse about you. Are you not interested in applying this horse sense? You don't want your horse to do these things? Ah well, some people do just want their horse so they can ride, why do you want your horse to follow you around? You might just want rosettes and trophies, 'wow, is'nt that a beautiful mechanical robot there?' Whether or not you want to apply this common sense is up to you.


[/ QUOTE ]


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## dicey (28 May 2007)

Sorry to disagree, - but isn't phase 1 - raise your energy!


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## phaseone (28 May 2007)

Thanks for finding this Bronya

The entire post has a lot of energy in it and it is important to consider what went before aslo. But the comments seem aimed at those who knew very little, or rather, enough to make an incomplete assessment of Parelli, who say that it is all just common sense.

Of course it isn't common sense, otherwise we'd all be doing it anyway and we aren't all the same are we. Each of us has a different range of ability, ambition and desire. So many people fall at the first hurdle simply because they cannot find time to read the booklets which came with the ordiginal packs!

You have to be truly commited, to study this programme.

But...re the phrase about the rat's a*** (and I happen to love rats 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) I thought I had a great relationship with my horse pre Parelli. If I fell off he'd come to me, he'd canter to me in the field, he'd back up on a circle in an open space at liberty for me...I could go on and on. But once I started Parelli he looked at me with a new glint in his eye. This was a real look of appreciation, which he still has. He expects me to be able to read very soft signals now. Ones I was blind to before. Parelli gave me that ability. No amount of common sense could have done that, but common sense drove me to search for a better way.


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## phaseone (28 May 2007)

Although you do 'raise your energy' during each phase, maybe HDT is referring to the steps for the Yo Yo Game contained in the original level one pack and book by Pat Parelli.


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## HDT (28 May 2007)

Phase one can be using your energy alone but not when playing the Yoyo in Level 1, if you read the booklets you will see that. You raise your energy as you wiggle your finger.

As you go up the levels you can refine this, as like now I just look at my pony and he will back up or just point my finger but keeping it still.

The phases I described were for the yoyo and now I realise what you meant.

I have used the same technique of standing by my ponies shoulder, holding the line in my left hand and tapping the line with the carrot stick held in my right hand. 

I just kept tapping the line until my pony stepped back, but I still did not resort to hitting him on the head anywhere to enforce what I wanted.

In fact I didn't feel comfortable hitting the line and instead tapped the ground which worked better for me.

HUSfan
I gather the person coming to ride the horse was not a licensed instructor and sorry to say this but there are a lot of people practising Parelli who think they are instructors. This is were Parelli gets a bad name as people who think they are good actually have a lot of bad faults and then go out teaching and helping and then pass on these bad faults. 

I am pleased to read someone has mentioned about comman sense, not everyone knows how to use it...   if we all had common sence in everything then we'd all be natural born dressage experts or Showjumping experts etc. Also if people in general all used common sense the world would be a better place to live in.... wouldn't it?
Also if common sense is all we had to use, there wouldn't be any horses with behaviour problems caused by us humans.

How many times have I got stuck using my comuter banging my head over something for what seems like an eternity only for my OH to come and solve it in 5 minutes...  ah that's what it was...I should have know that ... just takes a bit common sense... at that time until I was shown it wasn't common sense to me...


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## Romansmum (28 May 2007)

sorry to be a little blunt about the subject but i feel i have a good relationship with my mare i do not dfollow any phase or steps or anything just common sense, my horse is not a dog she doesn't do tricks but she will let me do anything to her is happy and contended in her herd will try anything that she is asked.  

i think that there is sometimes a little too much time spent following set guide lines than just getting to know your horse.


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## Stella (28 May 2007)

I agree. I came to horses late in life 5 years ago. I educated myself about 'horse body language' so that I could communicate effectively when around any horse and especially with my own. I read a bit of Kelly Marks, Richard Maxwell, Michael Peace. I watched a couple of demos (Kelly Marks and a local bloke who trained with her) and when I got my mare and found I had a major catching problem, I watched a Perreli DVD demo on catching. I didn't try to learn step by step techniques because its pretty clear to me that there is enough variation in equine personaility, temperament and behaviour that it was about learning the basics of the way horses communicate and placing that in the context of the situation concerned, that would dictate the correct way to go.

That is about common sense I think. I needed to know a bit about 'horse body language' to keep safe and communicate effectively, but that does not require an expensive heavily structured programme. Each to their own. Some people enjoy working through Parrelli and 'equine ethology'. I do sometimes get a sense from some near me who do that, that they feel I don't have the relationship they have with their horses and that my horse is missing out because I don't follow it. I don't follow it because I don't need it. I have done join up with my mare and we have a lovely respectful relationship. I can move her around and put her where I want to without using any aggression, she enjoys being with me and she knows that out of the two of us, I'm lead mare. Thats enough for me. I don't need her to do tricks like standing on platforms etc.


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## Skhosu (28 May 2007)

Am I the only one who thinks in parelli, same as some other systems, the horse is only doing what he's asked because he's afraid of what happens if he doesn't?


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## RLF (28 May 2007)

nope TripleSandH, my horse does as shes asked because i asked her nicely, she wont be afraid of not doing it because all i will do is ask her again and again until she does it (but usually she will do it first time) so no need for repeating my aids.
Although i do think Parelli is a 'cult' rather than a 'style'  I have only read a third of this thread and cannot believe how many brain washed followers have registered, just to jump on the Parelli bandwagon.  

I'm gonna count to 10 and when i do you Paralli followers will wake up and smell the coffee, (and the horse s**t)..


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## MaryG (28 May 2007)

Parelli Marketing is amazing.  They have put over £1,000,000 into Horse and Country TV for marketing purposes and they have had full page ads in all the horse magazines for over a year now and stands at all the major shows.  Plus this new 'presence' at Stoneleigh is obviously costing them but they are obviously going to get it back ten times over as people are so gullible they want to be sold 'miracles' in expensive packs.  They will watch a show with lots of smalzy music and be told they just need the pack and their horse 'will love and respect them', don't they wonder why the handlers need to carry a whip all the time - whether that is the reason the horse 'loves' them so much?
With big clips to hit them under the chin and a big 'carrot' stick to hit them but sold as 'love, leadership and respect'.  I feel I'm entitled to speak on this - I was a mug sold the whole package to start with!  The reason there are so many people speaking up for Parelli is that all members have been emailed and directed to this site - I am sure they have their professional admin on here as well.  I've learned enough from insiders of the organisation to know it's a pure marketing machine.  Promise big deliver little.


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## Stella (28 May 2007)

It does seem to have a lot in common with a cult .... if it looks like a cult and sounds like a cult ......


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## Skhosu (28 May 2007)

RLF-I think you have mistaken my comment as I think you don't do parelli? I meant that when parelli is used, is the horse only doing as told because it's afraid of being hit on the nose as described!


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## silversox (28 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Parelli Marketing is amazing.  They have put over £1,000,000 into Horse and Country TV for marketing purposes and they have had full page ads in all the horse magazines for over a year now and stands at all the major shows.  Plus this new 'presence' at Stoneleigh is obviously costing them but they are obviously going to get it back ten times over as people are so gullible they want to be sold 'miracles' in expensive packs.  They will watch a show with lots of smalzy music and be told they just need the pack and their horse 'will love and respect them', don't they wonder why the handlers need to carry a whip all the time - whether that is the reason the horse 'loves' them so much?
With big clips to hit them under the chin and a big 'carrot' stick to hit them but sold as 'love, leadership and respect'.  I feel I'm entitled to speak on this - I was a mug sold the whole package to start with!  The reason there are so many people speaking up for Parelli is that all members have been emailed and directed to this site - I am sure they have their professional admin on here as well.  I've learned enough from insiders of the organisation to know it's a pure marketing machine.  Promise big deliver little. 

[/ QUOTE ]







  Well, isn't that funny.  Just so happens that the YO at the demonstration/clinic last weekend is the Media and Marketing Director of Horse &amp; Country TV!!!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Talk about good marketing, - bl***y expensive, as well!!!


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## JLav (29 May 2007)

Don't know how many people are still following this thread but can any of the Parelli advocates show me some videos of a Parelli trained horse doing dressage movements correctly ie collected and extended walk, trot and canter, shoulder-in, travers, half pass in trot and canter, flying changes, piouettes etc.


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## ThomasTank (29 May 2007)

I doubt it but they can follow a carrot


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## Barbacus (29 May 2007)

Hi, my horse could be called parelli trained I guess, I've followed their system for many years, but also am open to instruction and advice from other trainers too. My horse is a young PB trakehner and I love dressage. I schooled him just today and we are starting to get some really nice stuff happening. We were working today on fluid, balanced and round transitions into canter and we found some! I was so chuffed. He is working nicely in walk, trot and canter and we can do shoulder in, travers renvers etc - I have a dressage lesson in a few weeks where I hope to begin working towards half pass. My horse in well muscled, has a good topline and is physically strong. I work hard to ensure he moves in a balanced and careful way, but also that he is good in his mind too - which the parelli helps with. I hope this helps... there are a few of us out there that support parelli but are not necessarily brainwashed cult followers.


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## bellablaze (29 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Don't know how many people are still following this thread but can any of the Parelli advocates show me some videos of a Parelli trained horse doing dressage movements correctly ie collected and extended walk, trot and canter, shoulder-in, travers, half pass in trot and canter, flying changes, piouettes etc. 

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't want to get into this discussion because I think that all training methods have their good and bad points but I thought these couple of links may be of interest.

http://www.horsesdaily.com/news/dressage/2003/03dev/sep24_parelli.html

http://www.pnh.at/KAREN-spot.mp4

I hope they work.


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## phaseone (29 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Although i do think Parelli is a 'cult' rather than a 'style'  I have only read a third of this thread and cannot believe how many brain washed followers have registered, just to jump on the Parelli bandwagon.  

I'm gonna count to 10 and when i do you Paralli followers will wake up and smell the coffee, (and the horse s**t).. 

[/ QUOTE ]






 FYO this forum is open to all. I've been visiting it for years admitedly as a lurker (is that against your rules too?). I've been reading H &amp; H since the seventies by the way and have a vision far beyond Parelli, so, no brainwashing there  
	
	
		
		
	


	





It is interesting that, when all else fails, people feel the need to isolate and victimise supporters of Parelli. If clicker training became as well marketed I expect supporters of that method would suffer a similar fate.  RLF, your comments are offensive, especially as you have not even taken to tiime to read all of the contributions before offering your opinion. Whilst others have attenpted to remain constructive and debate this issue, you have ensured that the tone of the thread is reduced once again.


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## gemmah (29 May 2007)

I don't recall anyone asking any of you if your horses only jump cos they're  affraid of being smacked if they don't, or only pull up cos they're  affraid of the pain they'd feel from hauling on the bit if they didn't? Probably because that is highly unlikely to be the case, but think on how u wld feel if that were implied? It seems some of u must have seen some very bad examples of natural horsemanship in general, but are all blondes thick just cos u met a dumb one once, and do all red cars go faster just cos you've seen a few ferraris??
I don't know about other people's horses on this site, but I can assure u my horse will not tollerate ANY kind of rudeness, unfair pressure or bullying, and if she feels unhappy or affraid in anyway she will let u know! If you're lucky u will just get nothing done, if you're unlucky she will deposit u swiftly and unceremoniously on your backside, and, or in the local A+E, something she has done many times in her life to several people! (Yes including me a couple of times when I've got it wrong!) As I said, I don't know what you have witnessed, but please don't just assume that everyone is the same!


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## Tina33 (30 May 2007)

I was just on the Parelli website and they have made another push for the faithful to come and post here!  This time they actually posted this forum address on their official message board. 

I just find that interesting.  I wonder if we will see another wave of supporters? That seems so cult like.


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## Stella (30 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I was just on the Parelli website and they have made another push for the faithful to come and post here!  This time they actually posted this forum address on their official message board. 

I just find that interesting.  I wonder if we will see another wave of supporters? That seems so cult like. 

[/ QUOTE ] Maybe we should post a link to their message board so that we can all go and continue our debate on there


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## silversox (30 May 2007)

Thought I'd save you the trouble!!!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	














www.parelli.com/enews/enews.html


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## maryhodgson (31 May 2007)

Gemma, Sharon suggested this might be a way of getting hold of you! I want to invite you to our Play Day but don't have any contact details. E-mail me at mary@trethellan.com if you are interested. Mary


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## JLav (31 May 2007)

Thanks for the links Bellablaze.

The first one though is just about a horse called Parelli not a Parelli trained horse. 

Couldn't get the second link to work so will try again later.


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## oldnumpty (1 June 2007)

I am very excited about Parelli coming to Stoneleigh.  Having started out as a sceptic I am now a firm supporter.  Like others I have met on courses and some of the writers of earlier messages, I have had a long association with horses.  In my case I spent my teens at the local riding school, joined pony club and went on to get my BHSAI, work with horses and eventually own my own.  It was one particular pony who showed me that I wasn't as good as I thought I was and Parelli/equine ethology has helped me fill in some of the gaps.

It's good to see H&amp;H is now open minded enough to  encourage this discussion.  There was a time when only sister magazine 'Horse' would give any positive coverage to Natural Horsemanship.  British Horse, the BHS magazine has now carried an advert for the Parelli 2 day show at Birmingham and is giving away tickets in a  competition, which is also encouraging.

Parelli has saved me and my 'naughty' pony from a future of stronger bits and tighter controls.  I am sure we both benefit from that.  Pony Club and BHS philosophy always was that the ideal is to be able to ride your horse in nothing more severe than a snaffle bit and caveson noseband without the use of a martingale if possible.  Parelli shows us how to achieve it!  Its not a quick fix of course.  It takes time and patience to learn any new skill.  Those who have the right mix of assertiveness and empathy already combined with perceptiveness and feel, will learn it quickly.  The rest of us take a bit longer but it will be worth it!

If having Parelli at Stoneleigh gives an opportunity for more Parelli training in the UK and a more open minded BHS, I am all for it.

Call me an Old Numpty if you must,  I'm still hooked on Parelli!


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## MaryG (2 June 2007)

Another Parelli PR person saying everything you want to hear!  Of course the BHS, H &amp; H are going to support them if they're spending £millions in advertising!  So now you don't use  a martingale - but you have to carry an orange stick around with you everywhere - I know which I'd prefer!  You stop horses by continually 'disengaging the hind quarters' (remember I have the packs!) great - they stop - but what discipline can you use them for after that and what is it doing to their neck and side muscles?  Linda Parelli brings a trained dressage horse over here - they are constantly travelling doing clinics - who has trained her horse? - obviously someone else that can ride!


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## SavvyHorse (2 June 2007)

You must have the old packs, this is why they brought out the new packs so that people didn't do DHQ all the time. This is only used for teaching the horse to not be so emotional, when you have mental fitness with the horse then you can go to working on emotional fitness and only then can you work on physical fitness with them. This means that you must get some respect first, then find the impulsion (not impulsiveness!) and then work on your outline. 

You should not continue to DHQ but you should refine things quickly so that you can ask your horse to come down with just the lift of one rein, getting him to move sideways or shoulder in to regain his mind on what he and you are doing rather than running off. 

Also you do not have to carry the CS everywhere you go...again REFINE everything but at the horses pace so some horses are taught quickly, some are not...same with humans. Some humans take way too long in the levels but some humans don't. Some people completely miss the point that everything in Level 1 is for learning and is a gross motor skill, Level 2 things should be more refined and by Level 3 things should be where you cannot see so much movement from the human but more from the horse. Basically the same as most teaching but some students don't refine early enough but that's the students not the system!

The system tries to teach humans to win the horses mind and emotions first and then do the refined stuff for competitions etc so that it should all look pretty much like everyone else does but with the knowledge that the horses mind and emotions are ready for the physical stuff. 

Also Linda trains her own horses, she takes one or the other of her horses to the clinics and Pat takes one of his horses to clincs too. They do not travel so much for clinics but for demo's, their clinics are at their centres in Colorado and Florida!


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## phaseone (3 June 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Parelli Marketing is amazing.  They have put over £1,000,000 into Horse and Country TV for marketing purposes and they have had full page ads in all the horse magazines for over a year now and stands at all the major shows.  

[/ QUOTE ]

And how would you know this MaryG? Hasn't this got something to do with Sky TV? Parelli TV shows are going to be accessible on Sky and some are currently viewable on Horse and Country TV.


[ QUOTE ]
just need the pack and their horse 'will love and respect them', don't they wonder why the handlers need to carry a whip all the time - whether that is the reason the horse 'loves' them so much?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that what you thought if you sold the packs yourself? Did you really think it following the Parelli system would be that easy?  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 It takes intelligence and considerable commitment. A horse may well respect you but why should it love you? It IS a horse after all and you are a mere human!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[ QUOTE ]
 The reason there are so many people speaking up for Parelli is that all members have been emailed and directed to this site - I am sure they have their professional admin on here as well. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

I got no email at all MaryG.

[ QUOTE ]
I've learned enough from insiders of the organisation to know it's a pure marketing machine.  Promise big deliver little. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you have a bit of an axe to grind MaryG. Many people have profited out of the Parellis. Countless instructors have left and set up on their own after having the benefit of years of training with Pat Parelli. Pat always gives credit to those who have helped him along the way. Strange that so many seem to experience amnesia once they leave the Parelli organisation.


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## Rainbow2007 (3 June 2007)

This is a fascinating thread. I have read a lot but not all. Shame there is so much missinformation about Parelli. It is not all about little orange sticks.

As is obvious I am a Parelli user and it has produced very good horses for us, but it is very difficult to learn it all from a program and you do really need some instruction to prevent adopting the wrong approach.

One of the problems with Parelli I feel are the students themselves who think they have found the only way to train a horse and put Parelli into a religious cult status.

The other thing that they fail to take on board is that Parelli is a business and a very successful one. Every business needs to see a gap in the market, create a need for it, and generate repeat business. This Parelli does very successfully. I am quite happy to accept it on those terms and feel no need to contribute to a book of thanks for accepting my money.

The levels system is artificial and is there to keep you on side. There is strictly no need for it. I know of people who have wasted a lot of time going through the levels and not achieving the result, then have changed over to another trainer who has addressed the problem and gone forward. Also with the system it has diverted them from what they originally intended to do with their horses. 

Many of the Parelli posters here seem to have come from the Keep it Natural group. Those there have become as narrowminded as they accuse you of being. They cannot accept mention of any other instructor or method that is not Parelli. Instructors they have raved about suddenly become persona non grata if they leave. You would think that they would want to do the best for their horse and at least discuss the relevance of doing things differently. But the system locks you into doing it a certain way or you will not pass your next level.

There are other things in the program that just feel like doing it for the sake of doing. Take passenger lessons. It bored my horse and me and we dispensed with it. The horse just feels lost. When trouble occurs he wants to know you are with him.

As for myself, I keep in touch with it and take the good and toss out the dross.

I hope I have put a bit of balance to this subject.


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## clipclop (3 June 2007)

Rainbow, Will you join the forum properly as a member? We can't get enough of balanced, intelligent people like yourself.

I love your reply.


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## jayvee (4 June 2007)

Bring on Parelli for UK. It's great news, I have learnt soo much in a few weeks than in a life time! Granted there are things that are not new and they don't claim to saying it's theirs! But it's a wonderful way to be with and connect to horses. 
If no-ones tried it, you should! Open up your mind for once. I have and soooo wish I knew all about this years ago!!!!!!!!!


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## phaseone (4 June 2007)

Rainbow you raise a number of interesting points to consider. As someone who says they are familiar with the Parelli system you are aware of the benefits it can bring to both horse and human. I respect your opinion and I hope that you will respect mine.

Some people, it is true, think that the only way forward is Parelli/Quantum Savvy/Clicker Training and so on. For them it feels true and right. It might be the most inspiring and enlightening thing for them in that moment. How long is a moment? Well, that's another matter....The important thing for me is that people are excited about learning and find horses and horsemanship fun again.

Many people haven't been near an instructor since childhood. The rise of natural horsemanship is encouraging thousands to go back to the class room -so to speak- and learn. What's more, enjoy learning. To me, that has to be good.

If a business giant achieved this, so what. Pat Parelli began his mission to change the face of horsemanship, as well as to put food on the table for his family. The heart of the organisation is still beating and is still true. The programme helps people learn techniques up to a certain level. After level three they know enough themselves to be able to identify which direction they want/need to take.

Prior to that mixing and matching techniques and methods leads to confusion for horse and human. Great if you managed to separate all the conflicting information. I couldn't do it and I'm very well educated. The conflicts occur not because a technique is wrong, but, as Pat says, it is just different.

The levels system isn't a business ploy to extract money from people. If it was to be thought of in this way, where does that leave the university system? It is a logical well put together system people can learn from. One of the main pitfalls is the person's own lack of imagination when it comes to using the techniques and applying the principles taught.

You referred to the Keep it Natural Google group. This group was set up specifically for Parelli students when the Parelli franchise collapsed in the UK, Australia and NZ. It has always remained focused on Parelli and why not? 

If you take your reference to business as an example, when instructors leave Parelli why should we treat them as though they still belong? When someone leaves employment, they leave, don't they? They make choices and some leave. 

Parelli has grown through hard, hard work and dedication. Many may well feel jealous and some feel threatened, but I for one wish it had all happened years ago. The conference at the NEC is going to be a fabulous experience for all who witness it.


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## Rainbow2007 (5 June 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Rainbow, Will you join the forum properly as a member? We can't get enough of balanced, intelligent people like yourself.

I love your reply. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you Bonzabean for your flattery 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 though not sure if I go along with your comments.

Not sure what I can contribute as I am very much in the NH camp and feel a little out classed here.


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## Rainbow2007 (5 June 2007)

Passive_persistance
Not sure if you actually read my post?

I did say that it had produced two good horses for us, I have also been doing it for 4 or 5 years and have been to the conferences, and I do know what goes on.

I said I have no qualms about Parelli having a successfull business - quodos to him for achieving that. It is the followers I have issue with who follow without question. I have never seen questioned why you do such an action or whatever. It is usually taken as read that you have to do it that way to proceed through the levels. I do have to admit that I did earlier follow blindly.

I think that the level 1 does give you a good grounding in NH approaches to horsemanship, but once you are proficient in it you should start questioning just what you are doing and look at other trainers methods.

In college you take exams to attain some recognised qualification. Not so in Parelli. Just keeps you onside till you reach the top level. It is relevant only in Parelli terms.
There are much more efficient training methods that deal more with the horse and how to stay safe with him and how to support him when starts getting edgy or RB.

Have you ever wondered why so many of their 3* instructors leave? A lot of them have issues with the way in which it is being taught or managed. Look at their web sites and they give credence to the great horsemen, Dorrances etc, but hardly ever Parelli.

Look at the way the Mark Raschid does his clinics. The first day is all about the horse and examining it physically to see if there are any issues that need to be addressed first. 

Parelli does very little initially on energy aspect and has only recently brought into play rib yielding because another trainer was getting so much success with that approach, but stills falls short of actually addressing the real issues. 

The object is to do the best for my horse. I have had many different instructors in the NH field and each has brought a different aspect to it from which both have benefited.

I will say again that I have nothing against Parelli per se and he does put the fun back into it, but you do not want to play games forever - riding is the target at what ever level you want.

Just keep your eyes open. "There are none so blind as those that cannot see".


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## mrdarcy (5 June 2007)

My general thoughts on Parelli are that it's not for me... the basic principles are just common sense and the surrounding 'games' and toys are just that... It's all very cleverly marketed and I have no doubt that some people gets lots out of it.  However I'm also aware of people who have dabbled and ended up with horses they can no longer control or have basically been turned into large pets.

Linda's riding also leaves much to be desired if judging her along classical techniques.  Heather Moffatt in particular is very critical of her riding and the way her horses go but more especially because Linda does seem to pass herself off as a 'classical' rider when she is anything but...  I'm sure she is effective and her horses do whatever she wants them to but it's not classical.

What I don't like with any of these 'schools' is the zealousness of their supporters.  Fine if you want to follow Parelli with your own horses but don't try to push it onto other people or look down on people who aren't interested (both of which I've seen in this thread).  If a method works then it doesn't need mass marketing or people shouting about it.  Results speak for themselves...


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## Eceni (5 June 2007)

Generally - very poor behavioural science dressed up to impress people who can't be bothered to study the real thing.  But better than some of the other forms of 'horsemanship' that involve assuming your horse is out to defeat you and continually applying punishment and negative reinforcement. 

I've yet to see a 'Parellied' horse that wasn't dead in the eye from being over-controlled

BUT

some of the other forms of Natural Horsemanship being brought to this country (Mark Rashid, John Lyons) and the like have a lot to teach people who are not brought up with horses, and don't understand that a horse is not either a big dog or a four-legged child. 

it's expensive, over-rated crap, but until someone sorts out ways to teach people so that they understand why they need to do the things they need to do, it'll continue to have a place. 

E


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## baleofhay (28 July 2007)

It drives me insane! The idiots at our yard that have started it to retrain there totally unsuitable horse are a complete night mare. They have completly ruined the arena surface and leave all sorts of crap ( umbrellas, plastic sheeting, plastic chairs and treat wrappers) in arena when finished. I know where I would like to put there carrot stick!!!!!!!  Why does it take four hours a day in the arena?????? Is it a case of boring the horse so much he will do anything you ask?????


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## dumpling (28 July 2007)

I don't beleive in it at all. I do like Monty Roberts however, but after seeing Parelli on tv, I think it's a waste of time. I think it's just for people who have nothing better to do so they try to train their horses to do stupid things that are not beneficial to anyone.


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## baleofhay (28 July 2007)

i agree. I have seen monty roberts and he seems to talk a lot of sense. Did not show me one circus trick like parelli seem to do.


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## SecretSquirrell379 (29 July 2007)

Ok I have not read this whole thread, to be honest I got bored after page 8, I really do think that we are being wound up here, either by Admin to get more replies or by some of the Parelli people.

Most of the positive comments are from newbies and guess what they mainly joined within days of each other and some of them within minutes of each other  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I may be repeating something that someone else has already pointed out but I have not got the time or inclination to read through all of the 29 pages. This is what I have seen just scanning through

Bronya - joined 16/05/2007 18:25   

Natural Two - joined 17/05/2007 14:38   

Chris_W - joined 17/05/2007 14:10   

SavvyHorse - joined 17/05/2007 14:22   

RuthC - joined 17/05/2007 14:53   

KimSavvy - joined 17/05/2007 14:57  

CurlyGirl -   17/05/2007 15:38   

RuthR - joined 17/05/2007 21:03   

LiabilityLibby - joined 18/05/2007 00:21   

Foxigypsi - joined 18/05/2007 01:49   

maestro1 - joined 18/05/2007 07:51   

Horsenuts - joined 18/05/2007 08:44   

Toni - joined 18/05/2007 14:37   

Passive_persistence  - joined 19/05/2007 09:49   

RCAWilson - joined 29/03/2007 19:55   odd one out but still seems suss to me, imho

All of the above sing their praises, and I think that its a set up. I believe replies from regulars or names that I know but the others....... all a crock of crap as far as I am concerned. JMHOT 

Tricksy


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## Talan (29 July 2007)

Maybe the newbies will stay and find interest in other topics on the forum?  That could be good couldn't it?  Maybe I count as a newbie from the number of posts I've made, but I just happen to read a lot and say little.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




It always makes me wonder when people say how great Monty Roberts is - have you read http://www.horsewhispersandlies.com/ ?  If not it's worth signing up for an account and doing so.  Very interesting reading!


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## pootler (29 July 2007)

The only exposure I have had to parelli is through a yard I was once at.  The middle aged ladies that did it raved about how wonderful it was and how it was the only way to deal with horses.  Unfortunately none of them could ride or handle horses confidently and were mostly afraid of their horses (which were in my book quiet schoolmasters).

My general impression is, albeit probably unfair, that thoses that can't do - parelli.

I am more than willing to stand corrected, I have an open mind to it but to date I have been underwhelmed.  I did have one parelli lesson from a parelli instructor, her liberal use of the 'carrot stick' on my arsey warmblood made me seek more conventional routes.


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## SecretSquirrell379 (29 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the newbies will stay and find interest in other topics on the forum?  That could be good couldn't it?  Maybe I count as a newbie from the number of posts I've made, but I just happen to read a lot and say little.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




It always makes me wonder when people say how great Monty Roberts is - have you read http://www.horsewhispersandlies.com/ ?  If not it's worth signing up for an account and doing so.  Very interesting reading! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I may be sceptical but I would put you in my list above too........ you joined about the same time as the others and have posted several times on the previous Parelli post and Natural Horsemanship posts. I may well be wrong but this post seems full of Trolls if you ask me.


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## Talan (30 July 2007)

I don't really care what list you put me in, it's of no consequence to me.  
I am a natural horseman, and I train other people's horses using that broad approach.  That is why I post on threads where natural horsemanship is discussed.  However if you actually take the time to read what I've said you will see I'm not a great fan of Parelli.  In fact, if you took the time to look up my other contributions on the forum you might even admit that I'm no troll.
Sigh.


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## severnmiles (31 July 2007)

This thread has made me giggle. 

Lots of people who don't know much about it yet feel they ought to add their 10 pence worth.

If it is just over-priced common sense why does the horse industry contain so many muppets who can't do 'jack' with their mounts?  Why are there so many unhappy horses and riders and why are there so many accidents?

All animals have a 'language' whether wild or domesticated, a couple study it, understand it and teach it yet they are slated.  Yes they've made a ridiculous amount of money out of it and no I don't agree with everything they say but the basis is there.

If as you say its 'overpriced common sense' why do people have difficulty loading/clipping/shoeing/catching/riding their horses?  And why is it those who are anti parelli cannot ride their horses bridleless?

2 years ago, if you had asked me I'd have laughed and said another load of bunny brushing softees but then I saw it first hand and have changed my opinion.

And no, before you ask....I don't practise Parelli


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## Capriole (31 July 2007)

quote...bareback and brideless isn't where the journey stops...but im sure its where the journey to voided insurance should anything untoward happen begins ...


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## Stella (31 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
quote...bareback and brideless isn't where the journey stops...but im sure its where the journey to voided insurance should anything untoward happen begins ... 

[/ QUOTE ] ROFL Well said


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## severnmiles (31 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
quote...bareback and brideless isn't where the journey stops...but im sure its where the journey to voided insurance should anything untoward happen begins ... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Great input...I applaud you.  If only....


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## severnmiles (31 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
ROFL Well said 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Another well thought out post.


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## Stella (31 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ROFL Well said 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Another well thought out post. 

[/ QUOTE ] Well I agree and found the way it was put very amuzing, would you prefer I just reiterated it word for word?


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## severnmiles (1 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Well I agree and found the way it was put very amuzing, would you prefer I just reiterated it word for word?  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

If you like


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## __Annie__ (1 August 2007)

What do I think about Parelli?

So far it's thumbs up from me and I'm really looking forward to flying out for the UK Parelli Conference this weekend

p.s to put the cost issue into perspective I'd be interested to learn what the cost of tuition/ hiring XC course etc ( B.H.S) is now in the UK ?


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## carpetslippers (6 August 2007)

RCA Wilson........... Fantastic to read your comments.
I have just come back from the 3rd Parelli Conference that i have attended and i am so inspired by Linda's and Pat's knowledge and understanding of the horse. I have been into Parelli for a couple of years now and i just think (in fact i know) it is one of the best things that has come out of America and into England. Long may it stay here and educate many, many horse owners and horse enthusiast's and make the relationship between horse and rider much better and safer. I was in Horse Racing and show Jumping for many years before i was introduced to Parelli and i have never ever looked back. 
Pat and Linda and all the other intructors and Savvy team members........ don't ever stop the good that you are doing!


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## Blizzard (6 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
quote...bareback and brideless isn't where the journey stops...but im sure its where the journey to voided insurance should anything untoward happen begins ... 

[/ QUOTE ]

I never thought of that!


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## unicorn123 (7 August 2007)

I went with an open mind to watch this show at the NEC. PP asumes we all had problem horses 4000 of us?. He seeks adoration from his visitors who watch dull eyed horses perform circus tricks. Both the P are sarcastic with regards to any other form of horsemanship whatever the outcome. i watched for hours sometimes falling asleep whlie they circled horses as they call it, they do not lunge? what is the difference?
If the P changed there attitude to others approaches and did not instill only their way as the only way I am sure others would take some of their methods on board.I went with 13 other friends we accept the ground work helps but this is common sense and we already use it and have never watched or been invloved in P before.
The Ps catagorised everyone as usless unless you are P trained and even spoke out against the Pony club Showjumping and the Press with out just cause. We will not be forwarding his meassgae to ten of our friends in fact quite the opposite. If they carry on as they did at the NEC they will not need the ten year lease at Stoneleigh. at no time did they advise youngsters not to try this at home even when skipping overs two joined carrot sticks what does this tell you.
He called all competitors ribbon hunters what is his friend in the states Mr OConner a god?


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## __Annie__ (7 August 2007)

Chuggy, I was also there so am able to say, hand on heart, that your first post on this forum contains un truths 


1/ PP did not seek adoration but he has gained the respect of many

2/ Audience participation was encouraged

3/ PP/LP were not overly sarcastic but yes the massive majority showed our support to their comments  
	
	
		
		
	


	





4/ Horses were NOT dull eyed

5/ You lead us to believe the horses were circled for hours, this is not true at all.

6/ PP has a very positive nature, I did not hear him use the word 'useless' 

7/ Wasn't the skipping whilst jumping whilst bouncing the big green ball just amazing ! 

8/ with reference to ribbons what was really said is the truth which was sort of ' if you win on the day it makes you the best of those competing on that  day ' 

Why haven't you mentioned Silka ?


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## unicorn123 (13 August 2007)

The skipping is dangerous didnt his horse become entwined during the show? 
What a shame the Ps didnt advise the onlookers not to try this at home, given the cue that they have the horses welfare at heart,even my own 14 year old daughter commented on this.
Sorry for the confusing comment watching for hours I was refering  to the show, however at lot of this was taken up with lunging horses by the PS and their followers.
I have watched the DVD of Linda loading the horse for a number of hours what do you think to it i was disgusted and so was the level 2 who had purchased the DVD
I will not condem fully nor condone the Ps ,the best you can do is take what you like and disregard the rest. 
The overpriced costs of the system and equipment are not based on your average rider or childs income. 
The merchanding hype at the show made me think we could see a parelli outlet in every town in place of the other over hyped USA outlets  Macdonalds.
The Ps should take a look at how their marketing office is dislaying their work as a now  over commercialised image.
Perhaps they will come back around to their old ways and ditch the money making scheme they now portray.
Why did Linda spend so much time at the show reloading a  horse when the owner informed her it had just travelled for 7 hours and the lorry had broken down twice.Wasn't it there because it bolted for home when out on it own. I noted it didnt come back the next day ? A lot of Savvy club members  near to our group also commented on this they were not happy savvies for most of the show and grumbled just as much as the rest of us.


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## caz1234 (18 September 2007)

Hi i am new to this and would like to make a few comments on your opinion on parelli or ps as you call it.

i am sorry you seem so offended by parelli and what it teaches, but i feel the real reason people are so against it is because they don't fully understand it. pat was skipping with his horse to show people the possibilities of what you could do with your horse with a bit of imagination and the right understanding. Not to encourage children to go out and get hurt trying it, if you had managed to stay awake and listen properly you would have understood this.
And linda was not trailer loading the horse to trailer load it she was actually building its confidence and trust in her, using the trailer as a tool. The thing with parelli is its all about the relationship not the task at hand.

I have had horses all my life and have had lots of success and happy times with them. i found parelli through a friend 3 years ago and have never looked back,  cause i felt i never truely understood horses till now. I also work with horses, and have recently started 5 youngsters through this method and on the third ride i was hacking them out in the rain and they were calm and responsive the whole time. that for me speaks for itself.


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## Stella (18 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Hi i am new to this and would like to make a few comments on your opinion on parelli or ps as you call it.

i am sorry you seem so offended by parelli and what it teaches, but i feel the real reason people are so against it is because they don't fully understand it. pat was skipping with his horse to show people the possibilities of what you could do with your horse with a bit of imagination and the right understanding. Not to encourage children to go out and get hurt trying it, if you had managed to stay awake and listen properly you would have understood this.
And linda was not trailer loading the horse to trailer load it she was actually building its confidence and trust in her, using the trailer as a tool. The thing with parelli is its all about the relationship not the task at hand.

I have had horses all my life and have had lots of success and happy times with them. i found parelli through a friend 3 years ago and have never looked back,  cause i felt i never truely understood horses till now. I also work with horses, and have recently started 5 youngsters through this method and on the third ride i was hacking them out in the rain and they were calm and responsive the whole time. that for me speaks for itself. 

[/ QUOTE ] I think most of us know that is the thinking behind the exercises. For most of us it isn't that we don't understand it, we just think that it goes a bit to far, is too evangelical and patronising of anyone who isn't signed-up and the multi million dollar industry that goes with it sells people expensive things that they don't need!

I have a lovely relationship with my mare and I do communicate with her in her own language, drawing on what I have learned from a wide range of sources.  Parelli people often find it impossible to accept that anyone who is not a purist Parelli person can't have the relationship that I have with my mare - its those people who don't understand!


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## minkymoo (18 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Fact: TB's all over the world are backed and raceing at the age of 2 years, as are quarter horses so age is irrelivant for certain breeds as they develop quicker...although I do agree to make a race of backing is unfair and pat isn't exactly light. We all make bad desisions in life, only some have a perminant record of them be a little forgiving. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but that is total bullsh!t. All horses develop at the same time - regardless of size breed etc.  Take a look at 
http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/2007/09/guest-blog-few-words-on-child-labor.html  or 
http://www.equinestudies.org/

I know this is off topic but people saying things like that SO irritates me. THEY ARE BABIES!!!


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## minkymoo (18 September 2007)

Sorry for coming late to the party, but god this is taking ages to read!!

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, thanks for the opinions.
Could I just clarify that it's not about the tack, not having this on or that on or being bridleless. I wanted for you to see passed that and look at WHY and HOW she is doing what she is with her horse. No comments about her horse at what we call Liberty, no lines attached. She is not doing this stuff to prove to those watching what she can do, she is doing it to test herself and her relationship with her horse, not showing off, just having fun with the great friend she has. 

Is this really 'nothing special'??

As for the 'lunging', this is not actually lunging, in the sense that she is nagging her horse around on a circle for 20 mins purely for the sake of the horse's physical development. The closest thing we do to this is called 'the circling game', and though is looks similar, it's not, and is used primarily for the mental (the relationship between horse and human), not physical development of the horse. 30 seconds (if that!) on a small (and not forced) circle is better than 10-15 mins on a 15 metre circle at the trot or canter, of course you must take into account the physical fitness of the horse and all are individual. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I really wasn't that impressed. Sorry, but lunging or not, the circle is too small and that horse does not look happy to me. Maybe I can't read horses, but according to Desmond Morris, a horse with his ears back is not a happy horse. I also really think that riding without a hat is irresponsible.


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## caz1234 (21 September 2007)

Hi thank you for your response and i can safely say i am not a parelli enthusiast that does'nt believe any one who does'nt do parelli can't have a good relationship with their horse.

As i said before i was quite happy with the relationships i had with my horses before parelli, i just embraced their concepts and improved the relationships i already had.

i'm a very open minded person and am willing to listen to any one who has had experiences with horses good or bad, because i believe you can always learn something more. i can't help but want to continue with parelli, and try to help people understand it better but i also don't expect everyone to want to do it.

i am not apposed to other methods or approaches i just feel that this suits me. it's a shame so many people on the foreum are so stuck in their ways that they can't except something new, and feel the need to run it down.


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## carolk (11 October 2007)

Why do people think Parelli is so expensive? Pre Parelli I was paying £40 to my instructor for every lesson I had (2 per month). This was costing me £80 per month or £960 per year. Since finding Parelli 3 years ago I have spent approximately £13 per month to belong to Parelli Savvy Club, £300 for levels 1 and 2 teaching packs, £120 on equipment, £340 on one set of instructional DVD's and £170 on the latest Success Series of DVD's.........total cost to me of £1,398
Take into account that having absorbed all the info I have sold one set of Dvd's on e-bay for £320 (and I plan to sell the other set shortly), sold off all my old tack and equipment that I no longer needed for £350 then I have spent a total of £728 over 3 years - £20 per month average. A lot cheaper than the £80 per month I was previously spending. But the best bit is the fun my horse and I are having together and the amount of things I have been able to teach her by just following the programme. I think it's brilliant that Parelli is coming to Stoneleigh.


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## donnabubs (18 March 2008)

It saddens me that such strong opinions are aired when so little is known about the subject matter - that is clear form many of the comments.  Ever heard of 'dont knock it till you've tried it?'

Yes, Parelli is common sense, it's nothing new.  In fact it's all the things that Pat Parelli's mentors taught him, which they learnt form others - it's just written down and demonstrated on DVDs. Parelli name checks all his mentors in his books and trainig sessions - he's not pretending he invented the techniques, he's just  spreading the word on a large scale.


The philosophy is to be able to develop a partnership with your horse and educate them to 
be able to help you reach your equestrian goals using appropriate communication and body langauge rather than force, intimidation and mechanical  means.

 The training packages are there to help you develop at your own pace rather than have expensive lessons in a school when the trainer has the plan, and not you.

Parelli is a business - they train horse and people for a living, as do many others in the equestrian world and no-one expects anyone to do it purely for the love of it - when did your instructor last give you a free lesson because they love teaching so much??  When did your livery not charge you for grooming because they like to see the horses nice and clean.  Be reasonable!!

All the big names have expensive equipment, training packages, books etc and I dont see them being lambasted in this way.  

The truth of the matter is that Parelli is very effective when applied correctly.  if you want to retain the dignity of the horse and not have a fight every time you try and do your thing, then Parelli is one way you can achieve that naturally with the full agreement of the horse.  It's not the only way.

If you dont like the idea of Parelli, fine dont do it, no-one is forcing you to follow the program or agree with the philosophy, that is up to the individual.


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## Stella (18 March 2008)

Typical Parelli answer - making patronising assumptions that people who don't hold with Parelli are just fools who know nothing about it. I have looked into it. Watched several demos, done some reading, watched individuals working wth their horses. I even found the 'catching game' DVD gave me some useful tips when I bought a difficult to catch mare. Yet I still think it is over-rated, over-expensive showmanship for the most part!!


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## donnabubs (25 March 2008)

How odd that you should firstly take offence and secondly assume I was talking to you personally??  How interesting!

I was just pointing out that the Whitackers and the Fredericks and the Fox-Pitts and those like them of the world make fortunes out of their own branded products and no-one complains.  Why bash Parelli for doing the same thing??  It seems unreasonable for people to work in an inducstry without some financial gain.

I am not a Parelli-ite as such, I understand the concepts, as I do of many other 'natural' approaches, and find them to be useful - the techniques are valuable, but the animal behaviour aspects much more so in my experience.  

Patronising is an interetsing choice of description - that is how you took it so it must be true.  What you communicate is what people receive after all.  that was not my intention.
Point taken - lot of people on here know sod all about it and knock it because  they beleive it is dangerous or expensive or whatever without having the first clue. That riles me.

  Use what is useful, dont use what isn't.


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## Stella (25 March 2008)

I was niether taking offence, nor assuming that you were addressing me personally  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I was simply expressing my opinion on the opinion that you expressed!!


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## donnabubs (25 March 2008)

I think you are being a little harsh. 
Perhaps the 'newbies' as you call us joined because at last there was something we wanted to join in with talking about?? THat is why I am here - I was interested to see what people do think about it.   I love the idea that we have probably been told to get on here and 'up' Parelli!! That is hilarious.  I wish it were true -  that we are all drones doing their bidding!! Ha, ha! I know some take it on as a religion but I don think they have extended it to brain washing just yet

Every approach to training has it's positives and negatives.  Parelli shows are a circus, they show the extreme of what you can do, and who wants to do most of that??  Not many, but lots of us want to understand our horses and not use fear and intimidation to control them, which is what is important to me.  I also Like MOnty Roberts but I would not try and mount an unbroken horse in 30 minutes of being backed like he does - he's just showing what is possible.  Most of it is beyond my skills or ambition, but if I can understand why my reluctant mare is behaving as she does, maybe I can make things better so she wants to be more productive in future.  That is fair I think, and I'll use whatever information and training that seems appropriate to do that.  At this moment in time Parelli is doing that for me.


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## donnabubs (25 March 2008)

OK then, thats clear.


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## donnabubs (27 March 2008)

You are very lucky indeed.  Whatever it takes, if you have that relationship, then bloody well done to you.

I know that this 'common sense' isn't something that comes naturally to me, and you may argue that I shouldn't persue equine activities if that is the case, but I do and I seek information from anywhere I can find it - Parelli is one stream of information, Monty Roberts  is another, other owenrs who have what I consider a good relationship not based on fear and intimadation is another.


I think that is fair.


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## GinniKipper (30 March 2008)

Parelli's methods are simple. He is trying to convert all you "Belt 'em when they do wrong and accept it-and-take-it-for-granted when they do good" people, and trying really hard to make you understand the mentality of your horse to enable you to move forward. Love him or hate him - I don't particularly like him - the man is a superb horseman with more skill than we will see in ten lifetimes. It makes me angry to see so many people who are willing to discredit Parelli methods as profiteering and extortionate, to justify their own inability and inflexibility. Yes, Pat and Linda's methods ARE common sense, but for the vast majority of horse owners, common sense is at a premium. Very few of you know how to get the best from your horses because you still have the 1970's pennies between your knees and the saddle, and the whip to punish when YOU decide it is needed. I don't subscribe financially to Parelli, I don't need to. I already have 'Savvy' - which I gained just through watching him and his wife in action. I see cynics every day in the season - beating the Ess-Aitch-eye-tee out of their horses for not performing, or not "playing the game". Yes you! Just what are you trying to acheive? So if Pat and Linda want to make a living out of it, so what? Are they the Hollywood 'A' Listers you all read about in your silly magazines, or do they just want to make people aware that the whip and boot are not the way? For God's sake people, wake up and learn to know your horse. You can either do it by watching videos and DVDs to retrain yourselves - Join the Parelli Club - or just carry on the way you are. Either way, Pat and Linda get more out of their horses than you EVER will. Hmmmmmm.....envious????? I am.....


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## Stella (30 March 2008)

GMK - interesting that you go straight for rude, offensive and up your own @rse on your very first post. For your information. I never hit my horse. She is well mannered and on the rare occasions she forgets herself, I correct her using my body language. She respects me, but trust me too because she knows that I respect her and wouldn't hurt her. She tries to please me and we don't have any problems! When I take her to a competition, I always come home with the best horse whatever the result.

I don't think much of Parelli and find that many of their followers assume anyone who isn't a follower, including me, must have a poor relationship with their horses! Yet, I am not what you describe and I expect many other members of this forum who don't like Parelli are not either.

Probably time you went off to preen yourself now me thinks!


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## donnabubs (1 April 2008)

I am finding myself agreeing with you Stella.  I started posting here saddened by the negative opinions of the vocal few who appear to judge with little knowledge, however, I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the negative attitude from the Parelli side.  There is no need to go for the jugular, and I think some of us are doing a disservice  to Natural methods by posting at all if being rude about others is all we can do.

Common sense, in so many spheres isn't that common, and good  horse sense is in short supply in some people, so getting help whatever way we choose has to be a good thing. Parelli does work, as does Mary Wanlass ,Monty Roberts etc.etc. blah, blah, blah.

Parelli is not for those people who have already found their way to good horsemanship - these people find it ludicrous that someone should pay for what you can observe and deveop on your own, and quite right too.  Money for old rope for those that already have the 'savvy'.  But so many of us dont!!

If you choose a different way to the norm, you will be criticised no matter what, that we have to accept.it's human nature.  Mr P himself does not go out of his way to try and persuade those who really are not interested, and we should follow suit.

Seek it out if you want to, if you are happy as you are, then that is just fine and dandy.  Ranting will not turn the tide, demonstration and continued improvement will.


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## Stella (1 April 2008)

Sounds like we are more similar in our views than we first thought


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## SirenaXVI (1 April 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I am finding myself agreeing with you Stella.  I started posting here saddened by the negative opinions of the vocal few who appear to judge with little knowledge, however, I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the negative attitude from the Parelli side.  There is no need to go for the jugular, and I think some of us are doing a disservice  to Natural methods by posting at all if being rude about others is all we can do.

Common sense, in so many spheres isn't that common, and good  horse sense is in short supply in some people, so getting help whatever way we choose has to be a good thing. Parelli does work, as does Mary Wanlass ,Monty Roberts etc.etc. blah, blah, blah.

Parelli is not for those people who have already found their way to good horsemanship - these people find it ludicrous that someone should pay for what you can observe and deveop on your own, and quite right too.  Money for old rope for those that already have the 'savvy'.  But so many of us dont!!

If you choose a different way to the norm, you will be criticised no matter what, that we have to accept.it's human nature.  Mr P himself does not go out of his way to try and persuade those who really are not interested, and we should follow suit.

Seek it out if you want to, if you are happy as you are, then that is just fine and dandy.  Ranting will not turn the tide, demonstration and continued improvement will. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Finally!  A post from a Parelli fan that makes total sense!  

Thank you!


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## donnabubs (1 April 2008)

QUITE SO.  

 Balance, that is what we need in more ways than one.


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## Tinypony (2 April 2008)

I'm not a Parelli fan, but I am an "NH" person, and I too try to always speak common sense.
Parelli-ite's who patronise win enemies for their cause, not friends.


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## Nickijem (2 April 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a Parelli fan, but I am an "NH" person, and I too try to always speak common sense.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well said - I'd like to think of myself like that too.  I do think the fashion for Natural Horsemanship since the 'Horse Whisperer' film was always bound to have some commercial spin-off for some entrepreneur types like Pat and Monty.
However I also think it has done a good thing by highlighting to horsey folk that we do need to 'listen' to our horses more.  If its bucking, rearing and napping it just might be trying to tell us something so a good smack with the whip isn't always the answer.
Now before you shoot me down all you folk who have been brought up round horses and have always known that we should listen to our horse, there are a lot of folk just like me who do not come from a horsey background and therefore use a variety of sources to learn about horse-care and horse behaviour!


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## Tinypony (2 April 2008)

I just do what I do and it seems to work.  I learnt from a Monty trainer, then Parelli, then others.  I don't think it makes me any more special or clever than other horsepeople, maybe just a bit different to some.  I get frustrated by the adversarial style of posts on his sort of topic, because I know we all have something we can learn from each other.  
Yes, some Parelli stuff looks daft, and yes they have some hopeless students (who doesn't?), but there is some good stuff in what they have to offer.


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## Donkeymad (27 May 2008)

QR

Finally, I have reached the latest on this thread, I expect more will have been added before I finish posting. I am not for parelli but think that, for those who find it works, great, your choice. There have been some very good posts from both P and Non P people here, thank you. However, there have also been awful posts, again from both 'sides'.
Note, I say 'sides' in ''. I don't think there should be 'sides' but that all walks of horsemanship should attempt to work side-by-side. For me, I take good bits from all  schools and leave the rest.
I have six animals, not all horses, who all come to me eagerly, who follow me around, because they want to. They all behave, give me space and are 'reprimanded' if necessary by simple body/voice language.
I do feel parelli is something of a cult, almost the latest fashion. However, like all disciplines in horsemanship, some like and follow one whilst ignoring the rest. Nothing wrong with that at all, and I believe the same attitude should be followed regarding using BHS/Parelli/NH etc
As for setting up at Stoneleigh, not overly happy.


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## Fantasy_World (28 May 2008)

QR gosh how many pages was that all about.
Some good responses though from both Parelli fans and non Parelli fans mixed in amongst a lot of drivel with rude and or sarcastic undertones as well, imo.
I am a fan of Parelli along with natural horsemanship and conventional types of training too. I am open minded. I don't want my horses to perform party tricks but if by practising a mix of techniques from all quarters of horse training if it suits my horses and helps me to understand them better then great.
I won't pay over the odds for anything hence the reason I have not bought any of the Parelli training packs. I have listened to and watched friends and will either borrow what I may need or else get things I may find useful secondhand.
Someone mentioned the yo yo game earlier well for our cob in particular it has been great. I have not hit any of my horses with a stick in order to make them go backwards and I was appalled at the remarks in which someone had witnessed a horse being hit on its muzzle to go backwards. I really do not agree with that at all.
I will say why it has been great for me. I still use the conventional method to send a horse backwards in the stable, ie when opening the door etc but when leading from a field I found the yo yo game I have played only a few times with the cob has helped. Our horses have recently moved fields and the gates are very tricky to open and close. As I needed space to open the gate and the horse had walked up right behind me I just gave the rope the slightest wiggle behind my back and he took a few steps back and I was able to open the gate safely and quickly.
Did the horse suffer by the rope being wiggled? No. Did he understand exactly what I asked him of him? Yes. I could perform this whilst looking over my shoulder and was in complete control all the time. Instead of saying to him 'go back, go back' I was able to ask for space to open the gate properly in a matter of seconds. 
For me personally Parelli is all about choice. You can take elements from it that you find interesting or that you might choose to employ in your day to day training and handling of your horse. I can choose to learn as much or as little about it as I wish to and that goes for everything else to be honest. 
There is no right or wrong way to train a horse in my opinion so long as the animal is not being hurt or abused in any form then that is fine with me.
I don't have to go through all the stages of Parelli training if I choose not to. That is up to me, no one else just me.
Each to their own is what I would say.


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## Jazzelle29 (16 June 2008)

How come the likes of Mark Todd, the Funnells, Carl Hester etc etc can make a living selling horse riding tack and equipment from their names and reputation without inviting criticism when the Parellis get shot down in flames? 

I have found the Parelli methods work well on the horses that normal/traditional methods have failed. 

How many of us know horse owners who have expensive field ornaments because they have found their horses behavioural issues to be too much to handle? 

How many of us read the "problem pages" in horse magazines that always start with:  "I bought my horse three months ago and now his behaviour has changed for the worse. I've had teeth/back/saddle checked to no avail"...

How many horses get sold down the road to an uncertain future when their behaviour can't be solved... 

The competition horses who never reach their true potential because they "blow up" in training?

or worse still, bred from if they are mares- to allow the cycle of behaviour and issues to continue?

We BE event and do RC stuff and constantly see examples of poor and dangerous horsemanship due to a lack of understanding of the horses' innate characteristics. 

Things like BHS instructors screaming "MAKE HIM cross the ditch MAKE HIM"!! Where is the dignity and humanity in doing something like that- what about the positive and progressive training we should all be working toward with our horses?

A hard hat and gloves will only save you once you're in a dangerous situation. Why not learn to read a horse and avoid ever getting into the situation in the first place?

Why not embrace the opportunity to learn something new and interesting? "If you do what you've aways done....you get what you've always got".

In addition, we have found that desensitizing our horses to spooky things using approach and retreat, learning trailer loading etc etc makes for a calmer, smarter and braver Eventer that has a less stressful day at a competition... and loads happily into the lorry at the end of the day!


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## Jazzelle29 (18 June 2008)

What I should also add is that its high time the BHS produced a series of up to date, accessible multimedia training materials too. 

Their literature does not reflect current practices or new research and whilst it caters for the physical wellbeing of the horse, does little to address the horse's psychological needs- the source of many training and stable management issues!  

Having sat my BHS stages I also found that the manuals are inaccessible for those who may have dyslexia, adult learners or those who just learn in a more visual way.

Whilst the instructor training is becoming a little more geared towards a positive,"coaching" approach there are still many, many BHS instructors with poor communication skills who insist on shouting and belittling their pupils and "keeping them in their place". Some CPD retraining needed perhaps?

If the BHS produced these things and addressed their more "traditional" instructors then I would happily buy the materials and take a look... its all good info... but they seem to be lagging behind as a training provider. Maybe they could take a few lessons from Parelli on marketing, quality communication and presentation...???!


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## Reinback (18 June 2008)

I studied Parelli as part of my Equine Behaviour course and think parts of it make sense (such as using imprint learning on foals to accustom them to humans and working with the horses instincts to desensitise them to certain situations like loading etc).
HOWEVER for a little while I subscribed to the Parelli newsletter as part of my research - the advice given to someone whose horse regularly bit them whilst being groomed was 'play the 7 games with him (which in my opinion are based on intimidation rather than working with the horse), if he still bites then give him a carrot every time &amp; he will be so surprised he will stop biting' !!!!!!!
This turned me off it completely.
Also on the free 'live your dream' Parelli CD that came with Horse mag, the riding was atrocious.
Whilst I agree with some of their methods, I feel that some are based on intimidating the horse and the whole thing has become too commercial &amp; aimed at the mass market to make money, rather than being researched more thoroughly and used to improve training methods in the industry.  

You did ask!!!


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## anim999 (21 June 2008)

Hi i'm new to this forum. 

I don't actually own a horse yet but i will be in 2 months time 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Anyway, my views on Parelli at the moment are all positive, however I haven't actuallly tried it out yet but I wouldn't mind giving it a go, I think Pat Parelli is amazing, I love watching him on T.V.

It doesn't matter whether you do it the Parelli way or your own, but as long as you are kind and fair to your horse, you will have a good relationship and thats all that matters


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## anim999 (21 June 2008)

By the way I forgot to mention that I do think the DVD's and packages are very expensive and I can't actually afford to buy the materials at the moment which is holding me back


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## Ezme (26 August 2008)

Tina33- I love you. 

IMHO paralli is for people with more money than sence. People who have made money then over horse themselves then think they are being kind by just confusing their horse with random NH and psydo-phychiatry rather than moving the horse on to someone who can really cope with its needs. 

Seeing appalling videos on you tube of, frankly pissed off horses drives me mad and talking to other "remedial" trainers who main income appears from messed up paralli horses, mostly headshy.

I tend to pick and choose from different methods, whatever suits the horse, but i've found nothing usful from paralli. 7 games, why? Introverted and extroveted brains? If your around horses for more than 5 mins you know their different, when they get scared some need reassuring, some need pushing on, why pay so much for that and why pigion hole then. When they eventually work their horses they still seem annoyed and doing the bare minimum and not engaged, a horse working correctly is a comfortable one and is less likly to injure itself. 

Most of the method i find laughable but reading a post online (from pat himself!) that said to feed treats to an agressive biter is just down right dangerous. And don't get me started about them never wearing hats, do their horses never trip? No matter how "safe" they are theres always something that could cause you to slip from the plate. One of our horses never spooked at anything in his life until he saw a camel, then he went beserk. predict that why don't you!

As said before, patience and time are free. Lots of turn out, respect from both parties and time are all most horses need.


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## alicepettitt (6 September 2008)

For your information, it is not a schooling whip, horses do not like to be whipped, would you? it is used as an arm exstenstion for saftey. when you see your horse galloping in the field back foward with a look of happiness on his face, does he pull then face when he/shes with you? or for your horse is it a chore for him/her? Does your horse do things cos you tell him and force him to? Cos parelli is being with a horse where he wants to be with you and is never forced to do anything, the teaching methods cause them to choose things for them selves and become your perfect parnter. Don't punish your horse from being a prey animal.


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## rlstokes (28 September 2008)

I think it is amazing....for people who think it is just a money making program you are so wrong, there are so many hours of amazing videos and footage for learning..it is no quick fix in 3 steps as somebody put it, and the one of the most important things is safety...ignorance is bliss...

welcome parelli uk to stoneleigh..


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## LucyPriory (2 October 2008)

I disagree with the comment about Western saddles.  I have spent considerable time working with horses that have been crippled by them.  

Its just that 'western' riders don't seem to notice because the preferred way of going for a western horse seems to favour horses that don't/can't move properly.  

I recently went to a western show where one of the winning horses was very lame behind and could barely potter. 

I am sure there are western saddles that do fit but I have not yet come across one.


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## lisaroguex (22 October 2008)

So here we are again!  Surrounded by the snobbery which comes with the Equestrian Society.  "You can't do Parelli!  How dare you all have fun with your horses!  Horses are put on this earth to serve us humans and if they don't comply we'll bully and hit them and if that doesn't work we'll strap them down with £100's of pounds worth of "acceptable common sense!" ie de gouges, martingales, dr bristols etc. 

Most of the people I come across don't have "common sense" just a big opinionated mouth.  People can't stand to see other people happy and often voice their jealousy/superiority complexes through insults and gossip behind other peoples back.  Incidently these people are normally the people I never actually see riding their horses just sitting in the tack room drinking tea and gossiping about everyone!

Why do you all keep going on about how expensive it is?  I suspect you all turn up at your competitions in your latest caldene jackets and harry hall jodhphurs.  Besides a dvd lasts as long as you look after it you can watch it again and again and  actually you can get a rope halter for £6.00 that's less than most normal ones.

As for middle aged women with no common sense?!  Well when you get to that age group you'll realise that actually you're a bit more safety conscious and it's more important to get on a nice calm horse and enjoy the riding experience than to be able to sit on the nutty horse that is likely to kill you.

So you don't like the Parelli methods that's your prerogotive but it's ours to love it.  We get just as good a response from our horses if not better and it builds confidence in our horses and us as owners.  Not  all of us have been fortunate enough to have mummies and daddies who have bought us our horses.  I had to wait 26 years for mine!  

I've never had to use excessive force on my horse and he is much happier now than he ever was we do more and we've started really enjoying life together, so as far as I'm concerned that's the most important thing.  I'm not really concerned about the narrow minded views that come from some of the people on here.  The best horsemen/women take different parts of different theories and make their own conclusions without slating other peoples  You should all be more open minded then you would be more successful.


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## carys220 (22 October 2008)

I guess you haven't read the whole of this thread. The majority of us don't disagree with the methods, in fact people like Monty Roberts have been doing them for years(Intelligent Horsemanship). What we disagree with is the media and marketing machine that comes with Parelli, the seemingly endless DVD sets for £45 each, the 'carrot stick'! It's a bloody schooling whip!  when people talk about 'common sense' with regards to parelli it's about having the sense to see it for what it really is. You can use all of the IH methods without spending a penny on merchandise.


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## Angua2 (22 October 2008)

QR..... gave up reading most of the 20 plus pages.

Waste of money.  It is common sense repackaged and then sold by very clever marketing to people that should not perhaps have horses.  Why on earth is it a carrot stick and what on earth has a big green aerobics got to do with horsemanship.

Most of the horses on the problem horses site have all been "parelli'ed".


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## PaddyMonty (23 October 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the people I come across don't have "common sense" just a big opinionated mouth.  

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot? Kettle?  
	
	
		
		
	


	






[ QUOTE ]
I suspect you all turn up at your competitions in your latest caldene jackets and harry hall jodhphurs.  

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry darling but I wouldn't be seen dead in either of those cheap brands.  Euroline jacket, schumacker jods and fancy italian long boots for me.


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## lisaroguex (23 October 2008)

I never said I wasn't opinionated.  

I rest my case as I said, snobbery!  You are a very good example of the kind of people that nearly put me off horses altogether!  Self-righteous people who think nobody else is allowed to have an opinion and that their way is the only way.  

Parelli is actually about compromise.  Working together with your horse to have an outcome that is acceptable and comfortable to both parties.  If it helps your relationship/skills/riding technique then what's wrong with that.  I don't need you to tell me if I'm right the only opinion that matter to me is my horses.

You think that everybody who does parelli is incompetant, knows nothing and is as narrowminded as the rest of the people on here. Maybe we just want to broaden our knowledge?  Well you can think what you like about me thankfully I don't have to put up with your "kind" anymore and I'm actually enjoying life with my horse at last!

and yeah I bought a few dvd's but they didn't cost anymore than normal dvd's and my halter was cheaper than my headcollars so..... but then again it's my money and I can spend it how I like!

It's a shame you can't all have a look at it properly and maybe take some of it and learn something or maybe even take some of it and turn it into something else, you never know you might actually enjoy it, I'm sure your horse would love it.


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## carys220 (23 October 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 You are a very good example of the kind of people that nearly put me off horses altogether!  Self-righteous people who think nobody else is allowed to have an opinion and that their way is the only way.  


[/ QUOTE ]

PMSLOL!!!! You obviously haven't looked at any other posts on this forum them? Most posts are people asking for help and advice, looking for someone else's POV rather than being 'opinionated' and 'know it all' as you suggest.

Why did you even join this forum? No-one will take you seriously if this is all you post about.


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## brian_blessed (15 November 2008)

perelli tyres, lovely things, last well.


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## Sarah33 (4 January 2009)

Limited knowledge is dangerous as proven by remarks on the subject of Parelli. Level 1 of the so called "common sense" clearly explains all previous comments.   Perhaps if people actually took the time and studied this Americanized natural horsemanship they would find information there which would benefit their partnership with their horses. Comments on the cost, if you way up the cost of the course to the expense of traditional methods, over time Parelli not only saves you money but will enlighten your life and enrich your relationship with probably what will end up your best friend.


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## kafrin181995 (12 February 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
The term 'schooling whip' is an invalid and completely misleading term when used to describe a carrot stick. 
Yes, you use your 'whip' for the uses you describe, but that does'nt mean we use our carrot sticks in the same manner as you do. 
Also, a 'whip' is a 'whip' and a 'stick' is not.
A whip hurts if you hit with it, even with little effort, and so it is not an effective tool for us. With a solid stick that has very little flex in it, you can use in a very light touch or with medium strength, or with alot of strength and give a sort of 'thump' (not often needed!) but not create a pain that a thin flexible whip would cause (with little effort in comparison) which to a horse may be seen as very rude and undeserving, that is not considered as an effective communication tool. I am not talking about your use of your schooling whip, I am talking in terms of a 'whip' used in conjunction with Parelli methods.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Anyone feel free to PM me if you would like to talk more about Parelli. 

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="red">  </font> 
Maybe you think that because you have yused parelli - most people who use this ridicolous money frauding idea are people who cant ride/wont ride/ scared to ride!!!!!!
A carrot stick - God just get a stick and put some string on it!!! 
Also my firend used a 'whip' (as you put it in speech marks i will!) and her stubborn pony didnt care - i don not think it hurt her at all - explain why not use a whip coz a carrot stick is a whip[!!!!


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## jasmin01 (20 February 2009)

Having lived nearly all of my 38 years around horses from foals, colts, stallions, racehorses you name it I've probably sat on it, fallen off, been bitten by it, and I'm still here to tell the tale I thought i'd tell you of my Parelli experience.  I am also an ex UK army officer so am not a timid housewife either!

After some consultation I now have my mother-in-laws chestnut mare, 11 y old gorgeous warm blood.  My MIL is a qualified instructor, so too her daughter, both vvv experienced and accomplished riders.  This horse was incredibly spooky and tempremental bones were broken, spirits damaged.

In fact they tried to sell her, and sent her to a couple of exceptional trainers,  but as is usual these days she didn't pass the vet!  Anyway I said I'd have a go.

Nightmare...typical CM.  Spooky, confrontational, bites, barging, walking all over, wouldn't load etc etc you know the script.  Pretty Ok in the stable though and beautiful paces, incredible jumper when in the mood!  BIG foodie.

Anyway, after several months and bumps and bruises, and near empty bank account later from all the types of kit tried on her, I happened accross channel 280 (very good actually), and saw Mr and Mrs Parelli, doing their thing.  Thought OK thats new, I will give this a go, what have I got to loose?
I bought the kit off ebay (most of he original kits way over priced - hope someone is reading from Stoneleigh!) basics, stick, 12ft rope and a halter and the 7 games DVD.

WOW..what an improvement, that CM looked at me after I'd done the 'join up' bit, which took two hours by the way!, licked its lips and came over as if butter would not melt.  We got the hang of the seven games within another two hours and by the end of 4 months I had her going in the trailer on pointing at it.

I tell you this, and I may have missed all the threads (well, I got bored after page 10!) so forgive repetition, but if the BHS I believe (after the Parelli conference last year) are now incorporating natural horsemanship into some of their training and Walter Zett is on board, and other classical dressage instructors, regardless if your a Parelli or a Monty fan, there IS something in this. Hell the old Indians of nevada used it years ago.

I am going to continue with the levels out of sheer curiosity and also because I have managed to get that CM respect and confidence up.  We are competing, we go out for hacks and I jump her with herhalter on - we are now working on the liberty bits and are progressing.

Anyway, long winded sorry, but to summerise, their marketing is exceptional, their advice well researched and gets better year on year, its worth having a go, but don't give up after a month - its taken me 9 months to get this far with her on top of the dressage and jumpring training, but if they really want to do us and horsekind all a favour - reduce the prices so everyone can afford to try it out themselves, they would reduce the anymosity (can't spell!) those people who really do need to learn they are just not machines.  Wish I'd known these basics when I was a kid.


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## savvylover112 (6 March 2009)

i think that u r absolutly right in what u say i am a parelli follower and i think it is great but i am not one of those people who think they r all high and mighty just because they do parelli i am open to ne thing and if ne one critisizes me for doing parelli becaue they have seen harsh things in parelli thats their business and your post is so far the only 2 sided post i have seen on this forum and i thank u very much for posting it up!!


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