# Equiblock....oh dear.....



## Gonetofrance (21 August 2008)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/266011.html

Seems he believed the claims of the product.........


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## TarrSteps (21 August 2008)

Wow, what do you know, I inadvertently called it on the other thread.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.  

I know there are now two formulations in Canada, perhaps the new one is a different substance that doesn't test.


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## flyingfeet (21 August 2008)

Err 1st ingredient 

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16202

Equi-Block® Liniments by Miracle Corp 
* Contains  *capsaicin* to absorb deep into joints and muscles 
* For temporary relief of minor aches and pains 
* Great for discomfort caused by overexertion 

What a muppet!


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## kerilli (21 August 2008)

well, if it's true that 4 horses tested positive to it...!
i can't believe they're so stupid tbh. i was told in 1993 (when the testing wasn't as rigorous as now, i guess) to only use saline on a horse in the run-up to an FEI competition because it just wasn't worth the risk!


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## TarrSteps (21 August 2008)

Unfortunately one of the major selling points of the product is it "does not test" written right on the bottle and true for race horses. 

Apparently not true for show horses.

Quite a good article: http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/beijing-games/story.html?id=740087


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## Gonetofrance (21 August 2008)

How gutting for them if they thought they were doing the right thing, tho'........


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## lucretia (21 August 2008)

yes exactly and i dont know many people myself incluuded who know every substance on the prohibited list. i am happy if it says FEI approved or something similar so i would have been caught out as well and would now be suing the manufacturers. and bear in mind that all  these horses were tested clean on arrival. in athens all the posiitve teats i think were for diffrent things, ther must be a reason why four tested for this. and bear in mind that they didnt test all horses after the initial rounds so if four were caught there are almost certainly more who got away with it unless they tested again today before it all got out.


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## cruiseline (21 August 2008)

If your talking about American testing, racehorses can run on bute there!!!!!!!

At the Olympics horses are not tested on arrival, tests are done on all winners down to four place and randomly by a computer draw or if a horse is suspected of something


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## kerilli (21 August 2008)

and Lasix...!


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## cruiseline (21 August 2008)

I have just told my husband (international endurance trainer and rider) the name of the product that was used, and he laughed his head off.

In his words and I quote, 

"These morons are international riders and they do not know that equiblock tested, they are not fit to represent their countries at national level let alone international level."

with more laughing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Apparently the product has been around for years and was banned by the FEI many years ago.


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## cefyl (21 August 2008)

I mentioned on the 1st thread about this it being the main ingredient in muscle rubs like Tiger Balm, etc.   Well well, Lynch et al have been sadly caught out by looking at labeling in believing it.  I for one think it is a shame as it has tarnished the image of SJ yet again but in all fairness for all looks like a somewhat honest error.  

Someone mentioned it is hard to keep track of all banned substances, that is so true.  The responsibility of ACCURATE labeling is down to the seller of the product if it is bought in Europe.  Even  if the manufacturer is in the USA and labels it such and such a thing  it still falls into the distributor / seller in Europe to take the blame if false claims are made.

Cortaflex (or similar) importer was caught out under the VMD labeling laws a few years ago and got a heafty fine.  You only have to look at the shelf in a tack shop with all the "natural" stuff now and many of the ingredients would actually give a positive under FEI rules.  

Worst thing is that under British law companies are not even required to list ingredients in topical applications like this for animals.  Even lfy sprays are exempt though those do have to HSE approved.  Shampoos, conditioners, cooling leg sprays, body rinses, etc - CAVEAT EMPTOR.


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## Gonetofrance (21 August 2008)

All horses were voluntarily tested on arrival this year in HK. It was a new idea, made possible by the access to the HKJC facilities.


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## Bossanova (21 August 2008)

I think this product is providing a convenient excuse. I dont believe for a second believe his story and strongly suspect the capsaicin was being used in other ways....


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## dieseldog (21 August 2008)

Why would you use something that wasn't FEI approved without checking it out throughly first?


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## Bossanova (21 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you use something that wasn't FEI approved without checking it out throughly first? 

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldnt. You may, however, take an ignorant chance on something which makes your horse jump clear and then cross your fingers very tightly


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## lucretia (21 August 2008)

iliked you ceyfl as you are clearly well informed! not many people know that british law does not REQUIRE ingredient listing on certain animal products and feedstuff although if it has it it must be accurate. denis lynch has probably travelled as much as anyone in europe this season and could have bought htat product anywhere, it was an easy mistake to make and i cannot believe as his owners have just forked out 5 million for Oki Doki that he would want o be pissing them off, let alone the shame of the whole episode. 
  Nor can i believe that Tony Andre Hansons groom would deliberately break the rules, she is as dilligent as anyone i cn think of and what little i know of her rider, he pretty much leaves it to her to get the horse ready.
  I would usually be the last one to stick up for anyone caught in a doping scandal but the riders cannot have been unaware that the hong kong jockey  club has on site stesting facilities (at athens the samples had to be sent to Switzerand or france i believe) so any tests would be proved within days not weeks.
   it is too odd that all the tests are for the same substance and if it is that common there need to be threshold levels for it as it must be very easy to administer by accident. this isnt something that you need to inject to administer or even feed, its contined in many common or garden ointments and gels and such like that we use all the time. I know exactly where they are coming from when they are talking about misuse and in stronger solutions its most effective but Tony's for example is a white grey with its legs clipped showjump style down to the skin, surely if anything was being applied ENOUGH to PUPPOSELY AFFECT its performance, the steward checking boots and legs might have notoice something amiss?


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## cefyl (21 August 2008)

I would agree that particularly on a grey a topical application of capsaicin containing product may show up.  It does can stain due to the natural chemical compounds, even an initially colourless rub often turns a reddish tinge when in contacy with clothing or after being on skin for a while.

There are feed supplements in the US called Gold as Sun and Black as Knight both colour enhancers that contain it.  Other products there like Magic Cushion hoof packing.  Just to name a few and I'll bet you could if you looked but them in Europe but you would have to read pretty hard to see the contents.


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## dieseldog (21 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you use something that wasn't FEI approved without checking it out throughly first? 

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldnt. You may, however, take an ignorant chance on something which makes your horse jump clear and then cross your fingers very tightly 

[/ QUOTE ]

You would have to be feeling very lucky to use something that you don't have a clue what ingredients it contains.


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## RachelB (21 August 2008)

I'm with Boss - I know if I had an Olympic horse that I *didn't* want to "dope" on purpose or accidentally, I wouldn't let any prohibited substance within 100 miles of my horse let alone take such a risk by applying one to my horse's back. I know a certain dressage rider who didn't let anyone else touch her horse during the run-up to the Olympics in case of accidental contamination with anything at all. It does all sound like a bit of a convenient excuse...


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## pixie (21 August 2008)

Surely the TEAM VET would know that the substance was banned - and if you're competing at that level then I would have thought you'd ask the the vet before giving the horse ANYTHING...


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## Gonetofrance (21 August 2008)

I for one think he's made a mistake...........if the product states it's negative testing, he probably believed it. It is apparently only recently that the test for capsaicin has been established. Who knows, that may have had a bearing on it.
I just cannot believe it was deliberate...............


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## cefyl (21 August 2008)

&lt; You would have to be feeling very lucky to use something that you don't have a clue what ingredients it contains.
&gt;

Well if you buy products off your tack shop shelf for use on  your horse in the UK such as shampoo, coat conditioner, hoof oil, leg ice, stain remover, fly repellant, etc then you must feel really lucky all of the time.  There is absolutely no requirement by law for manufacturers or retailers to show INCI listings of ingredients in animal products.   Even the labeling check for correct and not misleading wording by the VMD is voluntary.  Fly repellants for all the HSE stipulation about pesticides licencing still do not have to list ingredients.  

You just do not know what you are putting onto and into your horse.  

May surprise many that lavender is under the banned substance list for USEF events due to the nature of it's chemical composition.  As the FEI list terpenes as a banned substance it is good to  bear in mind that many lavender extracts are classed as High Terpene.


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## Puppy (21 August 2008)

WOAH!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





As a law student, who is especially interested in tort law, and a huge showjumping fan I shall be *very* interested as to how this pans out... And I think this scenario, sadly for the sport 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 shall be v much dragged out 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  Jeez I'm shocked, but I'd bet this shall be an ongoing discussion for some time... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I *really* do think that if the product made assured claims that it was "drug test ok", then regardless of whether or not the rider knew/thought/suspected otherwise then they shall have their *sred sued something crazy!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 It is a professional assurance - regardless of what a rider *maybe* or *ought* to have known - if that is what they claim on the product, then that is enough legal backing for a case..... Or many even! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 If all the riders excluded now contest on these grounds I'm sure they could cripple the company!!

It shall be *very* interesting to see if the other disqualified riders "say" that they've used the same product!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





 I have a feeling there shall be *much* more to come on the topic yet.....!

What a shame for showjumping


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## Skhosu (21 August 2008)

I'm not convinced either that he used this without knowing what it did, I'm guessing he thought he would get away with it and this is a convernient excuse. Think I'll go for my british nationality tonight!
Plonker. Interesting to see the other ones stories...


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## TarrSteps (22 August 2008)

I think anyone who uses it know what it does - that's on the bottle, too.  What they may not have thought is an over the counter topical liniment (which most people don't THINK of as a drug) would show up in a blood test.  

Now there may be ground for banning it as a topical preparation on it's painkilling properties but that doesn't seem to be the accusation here.  

I'm curious, has anyone seen/heard of it being used as a counterirritant?  I presume it must be given the accusations but I've only ever seen or heard of it used in exactly the opposite way.  Seems an odd thing to use regularly if it might have a "deadening" effect.  Of course if it was used as a sensitiser then that's another matter.  How do they test for topical agents?  Is it visual only?  I wonder if they've taken skin/hair samples from the accused horses as well?

I guess we shall see . . .


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## skewbaldpony (22 August 2008)

Pixie, in passing, can I say at risk of having my head bitten off, that I would probably let my daughter have the odd look at HHO were it not for things like your siggie!


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## weevil (22 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I would agree that particularly on a grey a topical application of capsaicin containing product may show up.  It does can stain due to the natural chemical compounds, even an initially colourless rub often turns a reddish tinge when in contacy with clothing or after being on skin for a while.


[/ QUOTE ]
Not necessarily. Research grade capsaicin comes in the form of a white powder which dissolves (with difficulty) to a colourless or slightly cloudy solution and it doesn't change colour even after being on skin for several hours.


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## lucretia (22 August 2008)

yes but i believe weevil that to make that applicable it  needs to be heated up quite sinficantly doesnt it? i find it hard to believe that riders or grooms were in a posotion to be carrying rund packets of anonymous white powder and that in the stables were one tack room got shared by a whole team that anyone would have been able to cook the stuff up on the quiet. 
  also every last drop of feed, medications, supplements etc etc had to be declared in a massive long form, which were supposed to be checked by teams, their vets, and then chinese customs etc. 
  amazing that four diferent people from four different countries all managed to get the stuff in and then prepare it, it they were not using a branded product like equiblock.


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## weevil (22 August 2008)

I wasn't suggesting that they made up a solution themselves (though it actually doesn't require heating etc) but my point was more that it is possible to have a colourless preparation that wouldn't show up on white bits.
Mind you, if all the medications, supplements etc were checked then it does beg the question why did nobody notice that they were using a danned substance...


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## lucretia (22 August 2008)

exactly. as i keep saying how did it get past four differnt sets of officials for four differnt teams? and if it is so commonly used that four different horses from four different teams OF THE ONES THEY TESTED gave a positive sample, then i think there will be a case either for contamination or accidental non premeditated use. 
  the FEI were supposed to be introducing some sort of thermal imager thing in the boot check area wonder if they bothered. and would a scraping from the legs concerned make a difference if the stuff is trandermal anyway?


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## cefyl (22 August 2008)

Note the wording MAY and OFTEN in my post.

I did NOT say it was written in stone that it leaves a marker!

I'll swear people read every 2nd or 3rd word of other people's post then respond with total inane chunnering.


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## flyingfeet (22 August 2008)

There is always the outside possibility of the riders being chilli addicts and sweating over their horses in the heat and it being absorbed that way??

Now thinking of tootling off the supermarket to stick chillis in my horses tendon boots... well will make a change from carpet gripper


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## Lillo (22 August 2008)

Maybe he shouldnt be jumping his horse if its got a sore back and needs that type of product anyway, regardless of what's in it. You'd think being an Irish rider and what happened with Cian O'Connor at Athens, he (and his back up team) would be more diligent than ever!


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## spaniel (22 August 2008)

Exactly Lillo!

And if I were grooming or competing at the Olympics I would be phoning the manufacturers of every product I intended to take with me to double check there were no banned substances.


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## cruiseline (22 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Exactly Lillo!

And if I were grooming or competing at the Olympics I would be phoning the manufacturers of every product I intended to take with me to double check there were no banned substances. 

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly, its not rocket science!!!!!!!!!


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## lucretia (22 August 2008)

interestingly i went to dinner tonight with a friend who is well into equine research, its their job and she said the horses tested for both blood and urine, which one might not expect in a topical application, particularly in horses that have tested clean so soon before. unless their were factors like the horses getting a little dehydrated in the heat and humidity which would concentrate the sample somewhat and giive a false reading. Or that the substance wasnt applied locally (i.e. to the shins or coronet bands) but was an ingredient in something much more innocent like a wash or shampoo. 
   she also thought that the same test results for four horses from four separate teams was worth looking into. she thought as the results were known before the end of the contest all the others should have been tested subsequently. ity they didnt IMO.


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## cruiseline (23 August 2008)

It is very simple, equiblock IS a substance that is banned by the FEI, therefore not a product that should be used on competition horses. 

It really is that simple.


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## lucretia (23 August 2008)

except that it isnt because its not the product thats banned but one of the ingredients, which is not the same thing. i am assuming cruiseline that you have seen the list of banned substances, it is extremely long and full of scientific names and so there fore quite easy to miss one of them. Thats what you have team vet and FEI officials for  i would hope, checking the list you have to provide of everything you are taking. as i keep saying what about the three other horses involved? have any of them mentioned equiblock specifically.
   i am an experienced competition groom, known for being slightly anal about being aware of products that test but i dont usually read all the ingredients if it says it is guaranteed to not to test. particualrly the ones that say FEI or Jockey Club approved.


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## cruiseline (23 August 2008)

Sorry I should have worded that a little better, equiblock is a product that is known to contain substances which are banned by the FEI. We all know about it in the far flung corners of the Middle East.

This argument could, to be quite honest, go on for ever!!! 

The teams, riders etc. that are involved with this doping incident are not at your local riding club level, they are top professional, international competitors that have been in the business for many years. Yes it is the responsibility of the whole team to make sure that horses competing in FEI competitions are clear of banned substances. I know for a fact that there were vets along with all the teams concerned, it is the riders responsibility to get advise from the team vet for any product that might be used on a horse. Vets do know what the list of banned substances are, after all that is one of the reasons they are sent over with teams. If the vets for the teams concerned were not aware, then a more professional vet should have been allocated to go. However, that is assuming that the riders told the vets what products they were using in the first place.

As a groom at international competitions, I assume you follow the instructions of your rider, team manager or team vet. I do not think for one minute that a groom has applied a product to a horse without being told to. To be honest, I don't know very many groom that read bottles, lotion or cream ingredients as part of their daily routine. 

Also the statement on the product says, will not test!!!!!! It does not say in which country it will not test. In America horses are allowed to race on Bute and Lasix

This is a copy of an add for the product:-

Equiblock Pain Relief
Part Number: MIRA0300066
Weight: 0.62 lbs

Highly effective specifically formulated gel to manage pain from serious injury. safe effective and easy to apply. temporary relief of minor aches and pains in joints tendons muscles and ligaments or due to overexertion injury or arthritis pain.

Product Details
Apply an even amount to the area of lameness 1 to 3 times daily; circle entire joint stifle fetlock hock or other area as needed. wear disposable gloves or wash hands thoroughly after each application.
Black
Capsaicin .025%

http://www.cheappetstore.com/Horses/Heal...n-Relief-35459/

It clearly states that the product contains Capsaicin


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## lucretia (23 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


As a groom at international competitions, I assume you follow the instructions of your rider, team manager or team vet. I do not think for one minute that a groom has applied a product to a horse without being told to. To be honest, I don't know very many groom that read bottles, lotion or cream ingredients as part of their daily routine. 



[/ QUOTE ]

to be fair most of the grooms i know are more cued up than the riders and most will query anyhting they are not sure about, because we know its us who will ultimately be blamed. The best grooms read every bottle, label and leaflet, to the annoyance of some riders i can tell you who seem to think we are not professionals who will just start using anything and maybe ruining our careers/reputations. 
  Having read your post though i would be intersted to hear what Cefyl and Weevil think of the amount of the substance in equiblock, a quarter of a percent seems very low, obvoiously enough to test but surely not enough to influence performance?


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## skewbaldpony (23 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
As a groom at international competitions, I assume you follow the instructions of your rider, team manager or team vet. I do not think for one minute that a groom has applied a product to a horse without being told to. To be honest, I don't know very many groom that read bottles, lotion or cream ingredients as part of their daily routine. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Blimey, don't you?
I used to read everything, twice. 
One of my bosses didn't have the hottest of English, (though the Anglo Saxon was coming along nicely), and the other one was a bit of an airhead (wonderful rider, madam, honest, but come on, you're not a label person, are you  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 ) - a third person for whom I worked at that kind of level was always meeting herself coming back and could quite easily have missed something. I wouldn't touch a thing without reading and re reading the label, referring to vet if necc. and on no account, ever, would I borrow anyone elses anything or use an unlabelled pack of anything.
Locked box and only things I had opened and not let out of my sight.
So you must know some very trusting people, cos that was over ten years ago and things can only have got tricksier.


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## cruiseline (23 August 2008)

It is not that I know some very trusting people, it is that everything that goes on or near my horses is first checked by me and, if in doubt, by my vet. My grooms only have to hand what I have given them!


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## skewbaldpony (23 August 2008)

Well I'm not saying I went and bought extra stuff, from the five and dime, but are you honestly saying that if you handed your groom something in a hurry to put on your horse, and it gave a forbidden substance in the small print on the back, or they had maybe heard a whisper to that effect, you would not expect them to pipe up and say 'excuse me, madam' or 'ms cruisline, m'dear' or however your grooms address you 'there appears to be something a bit amiss with this product - do you actually want me to use it?' 
I know, I know, you never would! But do you honestly not think maybe they feel a sense of responsibility to double check everything?


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## lucretia (23 August 2008)

and the best riders dont have grooms that they summarily instruct but managers with whom they have a working relationship and discuss the horsecare with them because they realise their expertise is RIDING and there are other people whose expertise is presenting the horses to the rider fit to be ridden and all. there are very very few riders who are also first class stablemanagers/head grooms as well.
   most of the people i have worked for would be damn surprised if i didnt ask about any treatment i was supposed to be applying. i am sure there are plenty better grooms than me who are in exactly the same posotion.


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## skewbaldpony (23 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
and the best riders dont have grooms that they summarily instruct but managers with whom they have a working relationship and discuss the horsecare with them because they realise their expertise is RIDING and there are other people whose expertise is presenting the horses to the rider fit to be ridden and all. there are very very few riders who are also first class stablemanagers/head grooms as well.
   most of the people i have worked for would be damn surprised if i didnt ask about any treatment i was supposed to be applying. i am sure there are plenty better grooms than me who are in exactly the same posotion. 

[/ QUOTE ]
See this is the scenario I recall, I worked in partnership with riders to get the horse right for the occasion, and didn't just 'do as I was told' since I was supposed to be the expert in my field. Thought maybe it had all changed?
Anyway, catch me putting something on a horse without doing my homework? I dont' think so. And I never got fired. Well not for that, anway


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## lucretia (23 August 2008)

exactly. i was saying earlier that it was possible i might use something *recently* banned if the label said competition approved but i havent been caught out yet and mostly i try hard to keep myself informed about what is legal medically and for tack, boots and other horse clothing by which i mean lunging kit for example. had a couple of run in with riders over that one i can tell you!


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## cruiseline (23 August 2008)

My daughter, my husband and I must obviously be the exceptions then (we have 14 grooms and a head groom between us), as we compete international in three different disciplines and yes we would not expect our grooms to apply anything that was not given to them by either my vet or us, if they did, they quite simply would not be around any more. My husband doesn't even allow his groom to put on stable bandages. They do not carry out any treatments on our horses without being asked to. Everything that is packed for an international trip is laid out by us first, then nothing is forgotten and if it is we can't blame the grooms.

That way mistakes at international competitions are avoided.


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## weevil (23 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

  Having read your post though i would be intersted to hear what Cefyl and Weevil think of the amount of the substance in equiblock, a quarter of a percent seems very low, obvoiously enough to test but surely not enough to influence performance? 

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes a quarter of a percent seems low but obviously it is enough to have an effect or they wouldn't include it and the therapeutic dose can be very low.
Also the amount in the system depends obviously on the quantity applied and the frequency of application as well as the rate of clearance of capsaicin from the system.


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## lucretia (23 August 2008)

and i see you are based in dubai where the quality of the staff though willing to learn is often no better than the average working pupil here. which is why you have to be that way i suppose. in places like the usa, canada and australia quite often  the vets are hours away even in an emergency so you have to hire staff who are pretty proficient. a friend in an eastern european place flies his vet in from england especially because the locals are a bit limited, he has to rely on his groom to do more than just muck out and chuck out.


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## cruiseline (23 August 2008)

We have international horses based in England, Spain, and the UAE.

Although I would agree with you that some of our staff are still learning, I am sure that the rest of them would take offence at your comments.

I am not questioning your integrity as a groom, more the integrity of the  riders.

At the end of the day, under FEI rules it is the rider of a horse that is held responsible for all and any breaches, not the groom. So it is the riders responsibility to make sure that all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed, no matter where in the world you are living.


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## lucretia (23 August 2008)

thanks weevil i am starting  degree course soon so i most interested in the science of these things


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## skewbaldpony (23 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 My husband doesn't even allow his groom to put on stable bandages. 

[/ QUOTE ]

then I am sorry, s/he is not a groom. S/he is a mucker out. maybe a yard worker? Domestic staff?

I would not have worked on a yard where I was not trusted to put on bandages, and I have never worked on one where it was not acknowledged that I was the best bandager on the yard, owners and riders included. Vets are notoriously rubbish at bandaging. 

I think the misunderstanding that has arisen here is about the definition of groom. 

I'm really shocked at what you wrote! I don't question it, but I am quite horrified!


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## lucretia (23 August 2008)

well put.


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## 7888 (23 August 2008)

Most grooms I know just do as they are told, they are generally too frightened of the riders to not follow instructions. They also leave stuff around for other grooms and riders to see. Most show jumping people have been so confident about the heat inducing applications that are almost universally used at international shows - its great that the FEI have finally got around to identifying this very common problem. Believe me, the riders know very well what they are doing and its just so easy to cover it up with nice smelling fly spray !


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## skewbaldpony (23 August 2008)

Well I'm the first to admit I was a dressage groom, and know nothing of the world of sjers, worked on a sj yard for a month, loathed it


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## lucretia (23 August 2008)

i ust suppose J1234 that your own little lord fauntleroy is not among those minions......  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  and i thought the FEI were going to introduce thermal imaging to the boot check area. pity they didnt as that would end teh debate once and for all.


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## cruiseline (23 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

I'm really shocked at what you wrote! I don't question it, but I am quite horrified!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

It amuses me that you are so offended by what I have said, in fact you are horrified.

Most of our grooms ride, lunge, school, plait, travel with horses both nationally and abroad, load, unload, deal with stallion, prepare youngsters for gradings, some compete, etc. etc. (oh and yes they muck out!!) 

There are many on this board who have seen my grooms working first hand and I think that they would agree when I say, they are a very valuable member of the team. The only thing they don't do is apply any medication, cream, lotion that we have not given them, and in the case of my husbands grooms, put bandages on. 

I some how do not see how that makes them just mucker outers!!!!!!!!!!


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## skewbaldpony (23 August 2008)

Well dear, if I have amused you, my day has not been wasted.
You do seem to give two rather different impressions, if you don't mind my saying so.
So glad I gave you a chuckle.


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## RachelB (23 August 2008)

QR
Am I the only one who would run away screaming from a product that felt it necessary to put on the label "guaranteed not to test"...?!


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## TarrSteps (23 August 2008)

It's a perfectly viable product and has its uses like everything else.  There are lots of supplements and preparations now that make such an assurance, give the huge number of things that can spark a positive test these days.

Technically any "pain relieving" product that is legal for competition horses (including many of the things people feed to "support" horses with arthritis come under this heading, although the spirit of the law is if it works then it *should* test and be banned.

There are also some areas of the sport that are more lenient than others and this is part of this argument - "doesn't test" under whose rules?


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## lucretia (24 August 2008)

tarr is absolutely right and in fact products that say FEI certified/approved whatever are supposed to be safe in any FEI country/competition. Jockey club approved is slightly different because as several people have pointed out it depends which Jockey club the label is refering too.


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## lucretia (24 August 2008)

another interesting point is that in this round of testing they only tested 15 horses i hear one from each nation not 50 and there fore to have 4 from 15 test positive for te same substance somewhat disturbing particularly if you look at it as a percentage...over 25% of horses tested were positive? for the same substance? did they also test for DMSO? also banned i believe but also often a component of several linaments and rubs because of its transdermal properties....


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