# Cant help him no more



## traceyann (22 October 2011)

Iv been up all night making the decision about my little spanish horse. And i think putting to sleep is my only option. He is so difficult he rears and boxes although he has now stopped that for the moment anyway. Well yesturday getting him in he booted me something hes never done and as i lay on the floor was trying to rear on top of me i have never been so scared in my life. I dont remember how but my cob all of a sudden had him on the floor and was kicking him. without being a drama queen i think he saved my life. I just cant get my head round putting down a healthly horse. He now sadly scares the hell out of me. And i will not rehome him anywhere now.


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## Circe (22 October 2011)

Oh dear, I hope you are ok?
That sounds like a very frightening experience for you.
Do you know a reason why your horse rears? is it behavioural or has he got pain? ( I'm sorry if you have posted about him somewhere else )
Is it worth considering sending him to a trainer?
Its a horrible decision to have to make.
Kx


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## yellowdun (22 October 2011)

How frighteneing. What a good job your cob was near.  I dont know if you have poted anything about him previously, but could he be riggy?  I was on a yard many years ago when a similar thing happened with a livery horse. That horse attacked several people in similar ways.  It turned out he had a testicle that hadnt dropped and been taken away.  Once that was done he was a lovely boy.

Make sure you keep yourself safe though (wear a BP and a hat around him) and I hope you are not too sore today.


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## missieh (22 October 2011)

Why not try a Natural horsemanship trainer? It could help you and your horse to understand each other better. Very few sessions may be needed and you can then at least say you've tried.


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## thatsmygirl (22 October 2011)

With out sounding horrid in any way, which I'm not as I don't know the situation but are you being firm with this horse and setting boundies for him? Or is he just running riot like a kid out off control? I say this because iv rehab quite a few horses now and really enjoy doing so and the bigger the challenge the better but in  all cases but one ( which was pain related) it was the owner who was at fault not the  horse. Just makes me wonder if somebody could actually turn him around as long as they had his full history. I don't believe any horse will act in that way unless it is pain or owner fault with all the horses iv worked with ( about 14 now) like I say 1 never came right but all the rest have.


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## Foxhunter49 (22 October 2011)

Why is it that people think that because they cannot handle a horse that someone else cannot?

I am not against him being euthanised, that it better than shoving him in a sale and him going from pillar to post, but, as said, there are people who can and will turn him around.


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## missieh (22 October 2011)

Ps pardalis (?sp) responded to your earlier post in April and looked as though she would be able to take him, but not for a few months. Wonder if she would be worth contacting as she sounds experienced with this type of horse/problem


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## noblesteed (22 October 2011)

As he is Spanish have you taken any advice from experts in his breed? because I am sure you already know that they are NOT your regular horse. Certain training methods don't work with them. I have a Spanish x and he has been really hard work to get sorted, been through several instructors too! thankfully he is fine now (probably because he is only 1/2 spanish!!) but they are not easy by any means. Even feeding can be a problem, they are just not bred to live in this country.
There are a few spanish owners on here, Sirena is one, can you pm them?
Was he spanish bred or was he foaled here? As that can affect them hugely. 
I would try the BAPSH website, the people on their forum are very helpful. You may find someone on there who would take him on for you. I do know of a lady who keeps lusos not far from me and she took one on that had become too much for his owner.


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## traceyann (22 October 2011)

Iv owned this horse for a year now and know his history he always boxed at peoples head putting two people at the stud in hospital. My trainer took him for a month and he scraped her head so he came back and iv had other trainers for him but they have got nowhere with him. Hes fear based fright if you smack this horse he explodes. I think hes to far gone and yesturday was the last straw for me. And now hes done this would never rehome him. He was sent from the stud to meat market because of what he had done but there a six month gap where i dont know what happened to him. I bought him of a meat lorry I have spent a fourtune on trying to help him and this is how he repays me. Sad thing this morning bathing his cuts and putting him in his own field good as gold and tried to be really loving. Im going to speak to the vet this morning to see if anything can be done. I dont know if he was scared because i was on the floor because he will attack if scared.


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## BSJAlove (22 October 2011)

If one minuet hes good as gold and loving and the next minuet hes attacking people it soulds like a tumor to me.

Has he had any medical checks? x-rays ect? TBH if the horse has had help with professionals and this has failed, id ask their advice and come to a mutual decision.


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## horseaddict (22 October 2011)

From what you have said I think that you are right to be considering euthanasia . It is commendable that you are reluctant to pass the problem on. I wish you all the best.


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## zippo (22 October 2011)

Your safety is far more important than anything else.You seem to have exhausted any other options.Don't let the"tree huggers"bully you into more dangerous situations.


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## touchstone (22 October 2011)

I would get a vet check done to see if there is a medical reason for his behaviour, but if nothing shows up I think I would pts. Mental suffering can be as bad as physical suffering, and if he is doing this he doesn't sound a happy horse at all. 

I'd just like to point out though, that although you rescued him from a meat wagon and have spent a fortune on him, he isn't aware of that and 'repaying' you with bad behaviour; he is simply a horse with issues that is either in pain or has behavioural problems, most likely caused be humans in the first place.  He is simply being a horse and reacting accordingly.   If that behaviour can't be changed then I agree that it is too risky to keep him.


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## ruby1512 (22 October 2011)

Contact Heather Moffat for some advise she's very good with Spanish horses, just a thought.


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## Tinseltoes (22 October 2011)

I would have a vet to give him the once over to see if there are underlaying problems.Maybe hes got something like a tumour or psychological problems.


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## JingleTingle (22 October 2011)

It seems that this might be a lesson in not rushing in to 'rescue' horses that are destined for slaughter. Not being harsh here, but how do you know that the horse hadn't been handed over to the meat man because a responsible owner had decided that going to the abattoir was the safest and kindest option for this poor horse? 

Feel very sorry for this poor chap, could be anything going on health wise that may even have been known of before he was sent off with the meat man. Is he well bred? If he is then I would say that this would also indicate that he was on that lorry for a very good reason.

I hope whatever decision you make it is the right one for this horse.


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## touchstone (22 October 2011)

grumpyoldmare said:



			It seems that this might be a lesson in not rushing in to 'rescue' horses that are destined for slaughter. Not being harsh here, but how do you know that the horse hadn't been handed over to the meat man because a responsible owner had decided that going to the abattoir was the safest and kindest option for this poor horse? 

Feel very sorry for this poor chap, could be anything going on health wise that may even have been known of before he was sent off with the meat man. Is he well bred? If he is then I would say that this would also indicate that he was on that lorry for a very good reason
		
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Very true and I agree 100%


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## wildwest (22 October 2011)

you poor thing ive followed your posts and i believe you have done all you can.
and the decision to pts is the best thing to do .
thank god for your cob, 
hugs to you xx


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## Cortez (22 October 2011)

PLEASE talk to a trainer who is experienced with Spanish horses! I have 2 rescued Spanish horses, both had behavioural problems because their previous owners were not knowledgable with Iberians, both are now 100%. They need experienced handling by people who know the breed.


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## Amymay (22 October 2011)

Big clue that he was destined for the meat man. Guess the penny has dropped now.


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## Natch (22 October 2011)

traceyann said:



			Iv owned this horse for a year now and know his history he always boxed at peoples head putting two people at the stud in hospital. My trainer took him for a month and he scraped her head so he came back 

...I bought him of a meat lorry I have spent a fourtune on trying to help him and this is how he repays me. Sad thing this morning bathing his cuts and putting him in his own field good as gold and tried to be really loving. Im going to speak to the vet this morning to see if anything can be done. I dont know if he was scared because i was on the floor because he will attack if scared.
		
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I hope that everyone who handles him now always wears a hard hat and gloves as a minimum? I would also personally insist on body protector, long sleeves and good stout boots.

I realise that owning him has been expensive and traumatic, but thinking about him as "this is how he repays me for spending lots of money on him" isn't going to do anyone any favours. He won't - can't - think like that as I'm sure you know when you're thinking rationally.

From the little information on here yes he does sound scared. As far as he was probably concerned, scary human needed to be put at a distance (done, but on the floor), scary human now in even more scary position, must defend self from higher perceived threat. None of which really helps you I know but I would at least think twice before PTS because he does sound scared, and not purely aggressive, which I think is the easier of the two to put right.

I was pleased to hear about your cob's actions - yes, I do think they are more than capable of pushing a horse away from another or a human, in order to help a situation. I remember bringing in my horse's buddy from the field, which had a colt in who was being a bit of a terrorist, and chose the moment I caught the willing pony as the moment to try to start a play fight. Things escalated and got a bit risky, and my chap bless him chased the colt and kept him running in circles at a distance around us, until I got the pony out of there. I'm forever grateful to him for that


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## traceyann (22 October 2011)

I dont regret saving him I do regret i cant help him and yes i would do it all over again. I like seeing a bag of bones bloom into a nice looking horse. I have just had a long chat with my vet he going to the vets tonight for full inside and outside check if nothing is found he will be pts hes been though to much in his six years already he dosent deserve to go on anymore with  mental or physical pain I will miss riding him as excellent to ride He taught me so much mainly be quicker on my feet.


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## Cortez (22 October 2011)

PLEASE TALK TO AN EXPERIENCED IBERIAN HORSE TRAINER!!!!!!


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## Cupcakes and Horses (22 October 2011)

How terrifying, thank god for your cob, aren't they amazing?!
My friend had the same issue about 18 months ago and in the end did PTS was very hard as he was healthy but she came to the decision that while he was healthy in body he wasn't in mind and was a danger to her, her daughter, himself and the other horses. She was heartbroken and got a lot of grief from other people but she doesn't regret it and is 100% she did the right thing.


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## Cadfael&Coffee (22 October 2011)

grumpyoldmare said:



			It seems that this might be a lesson in not rushing in to 'rescue' horses that are destined for slaughter. Not being harsh here, but how do you know that the horse hadn't been handed over to the meat man because a responsible owner had decided that going to the abattoir was the safest and kindest option for this poor horse? 

Feel very sorry for this poor chap, could be anything going on health wise that may even have been known of before he was sent off with the meat man. Is he well bred? If he is then I would say that this would also indicate that he was on that lorry for a very good reason.

I hope whatever decision you make it is the right one for this horse.
		
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^^ exactly this


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## abina (22 October 2011)

I have PRE's and Lustos - all stallions and know that while they are the most beautiful creatures their handling and early education in europe is not anything like we have here in the Uk and the horses do find it so confusing to change over from the stark, brash manners to our ...well ...cutie cutie soft pet ways. 

I would consider to a professional trainer to talk things through to get a clear perspective. if the PTS option is one that after rational talk, is the option you decide on then at least he will end his days in a home with some one who, cares, loves and respects him and his life will end with dignity not being hauled across europe in a meat lorry to some hell hole of a place to die in a scared and lonely state. 

You are being totally responsible, and don't let others play mind games with you. 

Whatever happens I wish you and your beautiful spanish boy the best with love.


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## horseaddict (22 October 2011)

You are being totally responsible, and don't let others play mind games with you. 

Whatever happens I wish you and your beautiful spanish boy the best with love.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely agree


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## Hairy Old Cob (22 October 2011)

I would recomend that the horse is PTS it was probably destined for the Meat man for a very good reason and I admire your thinking rather than passing on the problems.

NEVER UNDERESTIMATE A COB COBS RULE


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## Tinseltoes (22 October 2011)

Cortez said:



			PLEASE TALK TO AN EXPERIENCED IBERIAN HORSE TRAINER!!!!!!
		
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I agree with this!!!!!


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## Archiepoo (22 October 2011)

oh traceyann im so sorry for you -what an awful situation to be in. i think your being very brave and realisic in what you know is the right path to take. youve exhausted every safe avenue and im sending you the biggest hugs i can to help you in the days ahead  (((((((HUGE HUGS))))))))


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## noblesteed (22 October 2011)

I really hope you get things sorted. 
Surely he is redeemable to somebody experienced with Iberians, because you say he is fantastic to ride. You REALLY NEED to talk to an Iberian specialist!!!! RIng one of the studs, anything. People brush them off as 'normal' horses and they really ARE NOT. They are one of the worlds oldest breeds and were bred in Spain to be war horses and bullfighters. They are NOTHING like our horses and need completely different handling. For a start at 6 he is NO WAY mature - they don;t mature til at least 7 or 8. He is still learning.

If he was born in spain and gelded late due to being sent to the UK (they leave them entire) then he will be riggy and a vet will help you with that. Apparently if the SPanish DO geld them in Spain then it's because they are nut jobs - so you could have ended up with one of these in which case PTS.

If it's any consolation mine has been passed around a lot, and I have found the only way he will settle is through 24 hour turnout, NO feed or rugging - have you tried all this? Sometimes their digestive systems can;'t handle any sugar and they have problems with our grass. Mine is muzzled. He was a TOTAL nightmare at the livery yard, even my instructor couldn;t handle him, and put me in hospital twice. I was determined not to give up, I did have some help from the luso lady I mentioned earlier and from members of the BAPSH forum. My horse will fight if you push him - but I have learned to work with him. He is super-intelligent but also VERY sensitive and it took 2 YEARS to build up trust together. He would stress, box walk, sweat, try to push his way out of his stable, broke fences, pulled down half a barn wall, wrestled with the farrier and the dentist and threatened to kick me (though he never actually did). BUT he has become a total superstar, once he learned to trust me he would follow me through fire, they really are amazing animals and I would never part with him.

I am not an experienced horse person, but I have had to do a lot of research about iberians so I could learn the best way to handle mine. WHATEVER you do, DO NOT, EVER send him to a Natural Horsemanship trainer. Mine's last owners did that and it really confused him. Iberians are just too clever for it!

Good luck. You really do need to get a Spanish expert to help.


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## scarymare (22 October 2011)

No, you can't.

I had one similar - had all of us trapped in loose boxes at Snowball Farm about 25 year ago and had me trapped in a corner just rearing on me.  I never did get to the bottom of it.  I sent him away to be professionally sorted and the event rider just said his behaviour came out of nowhere - he could have a great session riding and then just get cornered in the stable.

He went (from the eventers yard) to a PC home (totally honest sale for less than meat money).  I still think I should have PTS though.

I think you should too.


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## Wagtail (22 October 2011)

I have to say that although I have never had a healthy horse PTS and am currently in the situation of having to keep two field ornaments at the expense of being able to afford (or have the space for) my own horse to ride, if either of my field ornaments seriously turned on me without obvious and understandable reason, they would be PTS promto.


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## Herts05 (22 October 2011)

Go with your instincts. Yes, PRE's are different (I have had one for 3 years) and yes a good Iberian trainer who has worked for a decent time in Spain/Portugal is a good way to go to get guidance but it sounds like it might be too late. Late cut geldings will always retain a level of stallion behaviour and must always be treated as such. The reason that they are so well behaved in Spain/Portugal is that they are not allowed to get away with anything!

However, Richard Maxwell has experience of Iberians, he took on a problematic Luso stallion with good success. You may want to give him a call.

If at the end of the day PTS is the way to go, then well done for being tough enough to make this decision.


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## xTrooperx (22 October 2011)

i think you are doing the right thing..

what good would a trainer be? you will always have this event in your mind and the thought of it happening again, once scared of a certain horse its very rare to every fully trust again.
and re-homing could also result in this issue happening again which may lead to a worse out come, and you being blamed for knowing this horse has done this in the past.

a hard thing to decide, but im sure which ever way you go, we will be here to support you.


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## somethingorother (22 October 2011)

I think if every avenue is exhausted then PTS is the only option. But to me, it doesn't sound like you are taking the very good advice of people on here who are giving you names to contact. All trainers are different, it may just be that the ones you have tried do not have experience with this type of horse. I would not PTS until i had spoken to as many iberian horse experts as i could find. And i hate it when people on here use the term 'bunny hugger' to refer to anyone who doesn't agree with them. 

There's many things worse than a quick painless death, but if he is a good ride, as you say, then i would try everything before PTS.


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## somethingorother (22 October 2011)

Also, just to say, i loaned a cob who boxed at your face when rearing, ran through fences, wouldn't tie up, dragged you everywhere, bolted when riding and reared every time he couldn't get his own way. It used to take 2 of us 5 hours a night to get everything done with him. But he changed home, was bought by someone with an elderly mare and donkey and lots of hilly land and most importantly lots of time and a good instructor. A few months later we went to visit and found a completely different horse.  It was just his routine and environment which didn't suit him with us.


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## Amaranta (22 October 2011)

Herts05 said:



			Go with your instincts. Yes, PRE's are different (I have had one for 3 years) and yes a good Iberian trainer who has worked for a decent time in Spain/Portugal is a good way to go to get guidance but it sounds like it might be too late. Late cut geldings will always retain a level of stallion behaviour and must always be treated as such. The reason that they are so well behaved in Spain/Portugal is that they are not allowed to get away with anything!

However, Richard Maxwell has experience of Iberians, he took on a problematic Luso stallion with good success. You may want to give him a call.

If at the end of the day PTS is the way to go, then well done for being tough enough to make this decision.
		
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I agree with this, having trained and bred PRE's for 20 odd years I feel I know them pretty well.

They are very very intelligent and also very sensitive, they don't need handling any differently from any other breed but they need GOOD handling.  Handled the right way they learn unbelievably quickly, and once they have learned something it seems to stick.  Sadly they also learn bad things just as quickly.

From what you say, your little man had a bad start, this is in no way your fault and you have tried to help him but have been unable to, again not your fault.

I believe you are doing the right thing in having the vet check him over, if there is nothing physically wrong, then you may need to make a tough decision.

However, if he were mine, I would give him one last chance, I would send him to Yeguada Esperanza in Northants.  James and Emma are very experienced in Iberians and I know of at least one difficult stallion who went on to become a paragon of virtue.  They have patience AND ability, they will also tell you the truth as to whether he can be saved or not.

Good luck whichever decision you make.


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## traceyann (22 October 2011)

I have had very long chats with richard maxwell poor bloke must be sick of me and followed his advice on the rearing and boxing. And like iv said hes now stopped that. what he did though is new and more dangerous and he could have killed me if it wasnt for my cob. I had a spanish trainer over from spain brutal wasnt the word put my horse back weeks. Im all for a smack he took to another level.  I will be speaking to richard again poor bloke before any decision is made its a shame richard cant take horses in at the moment. He would be there in a flash


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## Amaranta (22 October 2011)

The spanish can be very brutal, which is one of the reasons the stalllions don't misbehave.  Not all of them of course are like this and I am sorry you had one who resorted to smacking the horse the way he did.  Once a spanish horse is in the 'zone' it is very difficult to get them out of it.

I know Richard has helped you but I really would give Emma and James a ring if I were you, they have had fantastic results and turned out some very happy, well adjusted horses.


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## pebblemania (22 October 2011)

I have to say being quite new to this that I agree with you completely. I am sure he is a stunning horse and understand your sentiment as 'paying you back' it's not meant in a literal sense! this horse had had a lot of chances and somewhere you have to draw the line. no horses life is ever worth more than your own and I'm sure your friends and family would agree. follow your instincts and I am really impressed by your brave decision.


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## leah_x (22 October 2011)

If PTS is your last option, there is one more thing you could try. I work for Redwings Horse Sanctuary, and a lot of the time with situations like yours, they will take horses in. We have the dodgy nutters at the site I work on, so they would more than likely take him. If for some reason they don't, they will definately talk to you and give some advice.


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## noodle_ (22 October 2011)

zippo said:



			Your safety is far more important than anything else.You seem to have exhausted any other options.Don't let the"tree huggers"bully you into more dangerous situations.
		
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This ^


and especially seeing as he was destined to be pedigree chum....


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## PoppyAnderson (22 October 2011)

traceyann said:



			this is how he repays me.
		
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This is not how animals operate. He doesn't behave the way he does to 'get back on you' or exact revenge. Sounds to me like you need to understand a little more of a horses psyche and motivations for behaviour. Hope you manage to achieve the right outcome for the horse.


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## Sags_Deer (22 October 2011)

As others have said speak to Spanish trainers there are lots on the BAPSH website, which part of the country are you in?


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## Tinseltoes (22 October 2011)

However, if he were mine, I would give him one last chance, I would send him to Yeguada Esperanza in Northants. James and Emma are very experienced in Iberians and I know of at least one difficult stallion who went on to become a paragon of virtue. They have patience AND ability, they will also tell you the truth as to whether he can be saved or not.



Agree with this idea.They may well be able to save your horse.


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## traceyann (22 October 2011)

He just come in he was very good hes been loaded and on his way to the vets test will tell. In some ways i hope they find something so i dont feel iv failed but we will see. He staying until tuesday so aleast i can recover from my brusies


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## beeswax (22 October 2011)

if this Richard cant take any horses right now then turn him out until next year or when Richard can, the horse needs a break away from man and our fears, he is still young.  Sorry but I do believe that because you are a bit nervous of him you are giving off vides you do not even realise you are giving off and because of that he is picking up on them and reacting himself, give him 1 more chance with someone else not you and well done to the cob but does this horse do this when other horses are around YOU and him or does he do it when he is on his own with you as well, can you see where I am coming from here, could be jealousy over you and all sorts of things.


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## beeswax (22 October 2011)

You must have the best vet in the world if he is going to do a full investigation and find out what is wrong in 3 days including looking in to the horses mind ?????????? and then making your decision on PTS based on if they find nothing !!!!!!!!


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## Luci07 (22 October 2011)

I do feel for you and it must have been incredibly scarey for you.

I know nothing about Iberian horses. I know so little than when I was at a show and start chatting to a competitor sitting on her horse, you could be talking a different language. I will go down this route one day and will no doubt be as obessive about breeding etc as I am about ISH's!

I would just say that you have done so much and put so much into this boy - could you just try the specialists in North hants? then you really will know you have exhausted every avenue  - or better still have a wonderful horse who has been turned around. I don't class myself as a bunny hugger but sometimes we personally need to feel we have done all we could before we take the PTS option.


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## ladyt25 (22 October 2011)

I think if the vets find nothing then you should consider the options people have suggested here as in trying some other people to help who are experienced in these types of horses. If I was in this situation I would merely want to know there was no physical problem that was causing this behaviour as then i would feel there was something I could try - if he is only 6 years old then I believe he would be able to be worked with. If however you found he had something like a brain tumour then obviously you would then know what was causing it and certainly then i think PTS is the only option.

From the sounds of it he sounds lovely the majority of the time, so the good behaviour and manners ARE there somewhere but there's evidently something that flicks a switch and causes him to react violently. I would definitely get someone to work with you to get to the bottom of why he does this.

I know people said there was a reason he was on the meat wagon but in my mind 100s of horses and ponies end up on the meat wagon mainly because the owner(s) at the time couldn't handle them and that was the easy way out for them. I am pretty sure that is where my pony could have ended up or maybe was even destined for as he ended up at some sales ring back in his life and he is 'quirky' but I have had him 17 years now and he is lovely - still quirky - but a much changed character.

I wish you the best of luck with yours. At the very least you gave him an extra year of life.


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## traceyann (22 October 2011)

My decision to pts because he nearly killed me and not just me. I want to be 100 percent sure there is no health issue first. From his history he has always been troubled from stud to me. Believe me i dont want to do this but i dont want to die either. There nothing wrong with this horses brain if he been like this for six years this is human fault maybe from spanish stud or inbetween who knows but he suffering because he not a nastys horse just scared one


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## beeswax (22 October 2011)

if he is scared then you got to undo the being scared and get him to trust again, so turning away and spending time with him everyday on his own (without the Cob to protect you)even if it means you sitting on a wall (to protect yourself in case he rears up at you) on the side of his field and making friends with him, things can only improve.  Sorry but watching my own horses and knowing who is the boss etc etc, I wouldnt have a big cob around him when I am trying to deal with him I would have him on a one on one basis.  My cob and shettie get full of sh....t with each other when they are both around me because they are jealous of my attentions.  Hope you give him one more chance and dont expect miracles in 1 week it is going to take time, but stop being scared as well he is just as scared as what you are, what a combination!!!!


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## Pale Rider (22 October 2011)

I think that everything you have done up to now is really commendable, and further vet checks hopefully will help you make the right decision.

If his problem is behavioral rather than a tumor or the like, someone like Max is your best option if you decide to carry on trying.

The Spanish traditions really are absurd when it comes to any animal, but they do produce some fantastic looking horses.

I know lots of people who have imported entire Spanish horses and they have all ended up being cut, much to the dismay of some of the traditionalists, but much nicer horses for that.
Whatever decision you make I'd support as you have done so much already. All the best and stay safe.


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## Tammytoo (22 October 2011)

sharon1959 said:



			However, if he were mine, I would give him one last chance, I would send him to Yeguada Esperanza in Northants. James and Emma are very experienced in Iberians and I know of at least one difficult stallion who went on to become a paragon of virtue. They have patience AND ability, they will also tell you the truth as to whether he can be saved or not..
		
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It wouldn't hurt to give them a ring and discuss it.  I'm sure they will be able to tell you straight away whether they can help or not.

It must have been a terrifying experience for you and I'm sure your comment about him "repaying" you was purely frustration at the efforts you have put into him.  At the end of the day, if the vet can't find anything physical and James & Emma at Yeguada in Northants aren't able to help you have no choice but PTS for your own safety.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## traceyann (22 October 2011)

please could someone give me james and emma number going to have a chat with them. I dont want to put anyone elses life at risk before informing them about him. And if hes worth the risk.


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## FionaM12 (22 October 2011)

I think there has to be a point where you decide enough is enough. It's all very well people saying there are others who could train him out of this, but if no-one's available to help you may find yourself a bit stuck.

You've tried selling, I believe? If you can't find a buyer who could take him on to work on his issues and if like me you're on a limited income and can't afford expensive professional re-training, you may have little choice.

I hope for his sake you're able to find a solution from the advice given by other posters. But if you can't (or can't afford to) don't let anyone make you feel guilty.

You saved him from death to give him a chance, and you did your best.


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## SeasonalSituation (22 October 2011)

Would you sell  if he went to a home you approved of?


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## traceyann (22 October 2011)

No i couldnt live with myself if he hurt anyone and im scared for his future. Although its not looking good at the moment id rather know where he is. sorry


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## BSJAlove (22 October 2011)

sitch said:



			Would you sell  if he went to a home you approved of?
		
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of course not! what if he gets sold on? then shes sold a dangerous animal and i wouldnt want that on my concious TBH


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## Amaranta (22 October 2011)

traceyann said:



			please could someone give me james and emma number going to have a chat with them. I dont want to put anyone elses life at risk before informing them about him. And if hes worth the risk.
		
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Have pm'd it to you


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## traceyann (22 October 2011)

Thankyou to everyone who has given me support over this. Its breaking my heart but must do whats best.


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## hairycob (23 October 2011)

Traceyann,

You have tried so hard, whatever your decision you mustn't feel bad. If it comes to it remember  - better the horse is dead than a person is.


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## scarymare (23 October 2011)

hairycob said:



			Traceyann,

You have tried so hard, whatever your decision you mustn't feel bad. If it comes to it remember  - better the horse is dead than a person is.
		
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^^^^This


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## nicolenlolly (23 October 2011)

I have followed this not really knowing what to say to you other than best of luck.  I think that others whilst giving their opinions may have made you feel guilty and I don't think that you should feel this way. You have certainly done more than I think I could have done and unless you have an endless pit of money, there does come a time when you have to draw the line. You have been patient and yes he is young BUT there are so many horses out there that need loving homes that wouldn't behave like that I think if I were you I would be inclined to spend my money on them. Let's hope you have the answers that you need as soon as possible xx


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## Honey08 (23 October 2011)

From reading all this, it sounds like you've explored numerous avenues and rang lots of people.  It doesn't sound at all as though this is a rash, selfish decision.  Leaving the horse at the vets for three days gives them a lot of time to try and find the problem.  I think you deserve a round of applause and a hug.xx


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## Cortez (23 October 2011)

Amaranta said:



			The spanish can be very brutal, which is one of the reasons the stalllions don't misbehave.  Not all of them of course are like this and I am sorry you had one who resorted to smacking the horse the way he did.  Once a spanish horse is in the 'zone' it is very difficult to get them out of it.

I know Richard has helped you but I really would give Emma and James a ring if I were you, they have had fantastic results and turned out some very happy, well adjusted horses.
		
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Couldn't have said it better myself.....^^^^^^


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## Tammytoo (23 October 2011)

traceyann said:



			please could someone give me james and emma number going to have a chat with them. I dont want to put anyone elses life at risk before informing them about him. And if hes worth the risk.
		
Click to expand...

Emma - 07932 421253   James - 07932 421257

www.esperanzadressage.co.uk

Keep us posted


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## Herts05 (23 October 2011)

traceyann, having read all the posts that followed on from my original one I think that PTS (your original question) sounds like the best solution. 

I do disagree (sorry to say) with sending him to a sanctuary! 

Well done for your bravery.


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## brighteyes (23 October 2011)

I can't help feeling the vets might just be 'taking your money'   A behaviourist/specialist in Iberians will tell you if the problems stem from pain.  Just my opinion.

As to whether to PTS, it's not my call.


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## traceyann (23 October 2011)

Im so deeply upset my little horse has reared at one of the grooms and caught her in the face she required stitches. He did it this morning iv just been down to see if he okay and the vet just told me god i feel so guilty and angry at the same time she had no hat on or gloves even though they know why hes there this sounds bad but will i get sued for this. He under constant sedation now but he still manage a neigh at me. He looks so scared iv got tears my eyes now i cant cope with this


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## ChesnutsRoasting (23 October 2011)

Oh goodness, what a nightmare for you. Try not to worry about being sued, thats the least of your immediate worries. He's just got to the vets and was bound to be stressed by it, he's now had a sedative and will be away the fairies and now be manageable to have his tests. I would take the advice of ringing the experts mentioned, immediately and get their opinion - if anything just to reassure you. I wish all the best.


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## Honey08 (23 October 2011)

You poor thing!  

Did it happen at the vets yard?  If so, he was there to investigate reasons why he is he behaving so dangerously, and I presume that you have told them everything, then I can't see why you could be sued really, and even if you were, your third party insurance is for this, so don't worry.  You'd only really have to feel guilty if you hadn't told them about the horse.  (I do understand why you do though..)xx I wouldn't think for a moment that the vets were just taking your money.  This has gone past the stages where it is a simple behavioural issue, people are getting hurt!

As for all those "wittering" for want of a better word, about special breed people, yes each breed is special and does have characteristics, but at the end of the day a horse is a horse, and in every breed, now and again, you get something that may have issues.  Horses aren't machines, a breed of horse is not like a type of car - all the same..  From what I can gather, this horse had behaved like this at the stud (which probably had experience of the breed, no?) and at the OP's trainer's yard.  Its not just one person struggling...

Over the years, twice in my life I've heard of/seen horses that behaved like this, and it was down to a brain tunmour.  No behaviourist or special breed person could have altered the behaviour of those horses, and they had to be PTS.  Sometimes it is the only solution.

OP hope that you're ok.  Do you have people around you for support too?


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## Tinseltoes (23 October 2011)

I agree call the experts for advice.Hope everyone involved is ok.


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## touchstone (23 October 2011)

Traceyann, try not to worry about getting sued, I'm sure that the vets themselves are covered for handling dangerous/difficult animals, and if they knew your horse had issues it was really up to them to keep themselves as safe as possible.  On the positive side it will have given them a chance to see just what your horse does, so might help them in understanding what could be physically affecting him.

You really sound at the end of your tether over all this, but at the end of the day just bear in mind that we can only ever do our best and no more, and sometimes we still don't get the result that we'd like at the end of it.  xx


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## Luci07 (23 October 2011)

Honey08 said:



			You poor thing!  


As for all those "wittering" for want of a better word, about special breed people, yes each breed is special and does have characteristics, but at the end of the day a horse is a horse, and in every breed, now and again, you get something that may have issues.  Horses aren't machines, a breed of horse is not like a type of car - all the same..  From what I can gather, this horse had behaved like this at the stud (which probably had experience of the breed, no?) and at the OP's trainer's yard.  Its not just one person struggling...
		
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I think that is a little unfair. There are people, who have iberians and experience and recommended people to help as the last resort. Having read all the posts, It seems clear to me that the OP has tried pretty much everything and in HER position, and for HER peace of mind I think that is a good idea - then she can never ask herself if she did enough.  

As for the girl who needs stitches. I am really sorry for her. The caveat is that the whole reason he is at the vets is that he is unpredictable and the warnings were clearly stated. If he was behaving, then he would not have been at the vets in the first place.

I have never -fortunately - known a horse like this. The nearest I had was a loan horse who had been so messed up he lost the plot when jumping and really really tried to hurt the rider. Same horse, same competition venue, dressage - complete and utter angel. (all normal checks were done when I took him on). That is the closest I have ever come to having a horse geniunely wish to hurt me so I do understand how OP feels.

You really have tried your best. One way or the other you are near the end of this journey. He either manages to take the chance you are trying to offer him or is put out of his misery. Good luck OP.


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## Dancing Queen (23 October 2011)

I would not PTS, but then again i like challenging horses.

I hope the vets can get to the root of the problem and then you can make a decision based on what they find.

I do believe that there are some horses which need experienced confident and kind handling and are too often PTS because the owners arent experienced and confident enough to help the horse though its issues.

Good luck to you and more importantly the horse.


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## mulledwhine (23 October 2011)

You really are between a rock and a hard place 

He is obviously finding life s big ordeal and is getting in first before anyone can hurt him , poor thing.

I think they only way you cam help him ( if there is no physical reason) is to pin point what he is so afraid of, only then can you move forward.

He needs a serious injection of confidence, and I would exhaust all expert avenues.

Good luck xxx


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## lastchancer (23 October 2011)

Dancing Queen said:



			I would not PTS, but then again i like challenging horses.

I hope the vets can get to the root of the problem and then you can make a decision based on what they find.

I do believe that there are some horses which need experienced confident and kind handling and are too often PTS because the owners arent experienced and confident enough to help the horse though its issues.

Good luck to you and more importantly the horse.
		
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As much as I agree with you, in this case I'm not sure I would even try too find out what the problem is, this horse is clearly very,very dangerous and it makes no difference what the horses problem is, if he kills someone they won't be any less dead if he later turns out to have had brain tumur or something. Would you still advise kind experienced handling (which I'm sure the OP has anyway)or specialist trainers after someone has died?
 Op has tried and tried with this but sadly you have to draw the line somewhere. In some cases it can almost become an ego trip to try and succeed when others have failed. I was in a similar position with one of mine recently and its so hard to know when to say enough is enough.   
All the best to the OP and what ever else happens at least you tried. The next one will be hopefully be different.


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## Cortez (23 October 2011)

I very much do not direct this at you, OP, and I am deeply sorry for you and the horse, and apreciate that you have tried your best to help and right a wrong that is not of your doing at all, but this is just another in a long series of disasterous outcomes for Spanish horses in the wrong hands. People see PRE's in Spain and think "Beautiful, fairytale horses: stallions behaving perfectly, always obedient, quiet and at one with the rider. This is my dream horse! I, too can ride the wind", then get their dreamhorse home and discover they cannot handle it. Spanish horses dorequire experienced, often FIRM handling. They are not quiet cobs, they do not generally respond to "loving" handling, or the English "way". I have now rescued 8 Spanish horses from awful situations (won't bore you with the details), all started out with the best of intentions. PLEASE don't buy Spanish horses without thoroughly investigating the breed, it can end badly - usually for the horse, whose only crime was to be beautiful and desirable.


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## lastchancer (23 October 2011)

Cortez said:



			I very much do not direct this at you, OP, and I am deeply sorry for you and the horse, and apreciate that you have tried your best to help and right a wrong that is not of your doing at all, but this is just another in a long series of disasterous outcomes for Spanish horses in the wrong hands. People see PRE's in Spain and think "Beautiful, fairytale horses: stallions behaving perfectly, always obedient, quiet and at one with the rider. This is my dream horse! I, too can ride the wind", then get their dreamhorse home and discover they cannot handle it. Spanish horses dorequire experienced, often FIRM handling. They are not quiet cobs, they do not generally respond to "loving" handling, or the English "way". I have now rescued 8 Spanish horses from awful situations (won't bore you with the details), all started out with the best of intentions. PLEASE don't buy Spanish horses without thoroughly investigating the breed, it can end badly - usually for the horse, whose only crime was to be beautiful and desirable.
		
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Interesting post this, I have no experience with this type of horse but I can imagine it's a bit like a newly passed 17yo driver buying a Lamborghini, except of course the horse is a sentient beast who then gets passed from pillar to post when it all goes wrong. I think in this case though the OP was trying to pick up the pieces after the horse was messed up.


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## Bubbles (23 October 2011)

OP, I am so sorry for you - this horse has now had 5 people injured or in your case in great danger of serious injury. Yes an expert handler might be able to turn him round, but he will never IMO be trustworthy, and not every professional wants to put their neck of the line to earn their bread and butter. The vets are obviously taking his situation very seriously if they are keeping him sedated. Fingers crossed that you get some answers from the vet, let them be the ones to help guide your decision. All the best, please do let us know how you get on.


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## Dancing Queen (23 October 2011)

lastchancer said:



			As much as I agree with you, in this case I'm not sure I would even try too find out what the problem is, this horse is clearly very,very dangerous and it makes no difference what the horses problem is, if he kills someone they won't be any less dead if he later turns out to have had brain tumur or something. *Would you still advise kind experienced handling (which I'm sure the OP has anyway)or specialist trainers after someone has died?*
 Op has tried and tried with this but sadly you have to draw the line somewhere. In some cases it can almost become an ego trip to try and succeed when others have failed. I was in a similar position with one of mine recently and its so hard to know when to say enough is enough.   
All the best to the OP and what ever else happens at least you tried. The next one will be hopefully be different.
		
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Yes i would. But that is me and my opinion and whilst it will be greatly different to a wide cross section of the public, I feel that If he is Healthy (no presence of a tumour) then he should be given the opportunity with experienced people who know what they will be taking on and hopefully improve.  

I dont expect anyone to agree with me, but its my feelings and my opinions - and we are all entitled to our own thoughts.

There are animals that are pts/killed though no fault of their own. Animals like children are a product of their environment, something somewhere in his health/life has gone wrong. Hopefully it can be rectified.

There is a reason, a deep seated reason as to why the horse is behaving like this and I do feel that if the vets can get to the root of the problem then he could still have a future - perhaps not with current owner - who knows? 

Decisions depend on the vets findings. Should it be a tumour the kindest thing is to let the horse go.


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## juliag (23 October 2011)

Dancing Queen said:



			I would not PTS, but then again i like challenging horses.

I hope the vets can get to the root of the problem and then you can make a decision based on what they find.

I do believe that there are some horses which need experienced confident and kind handling and are too often PTS because the owners arent experienced and confident enough to help the horse though its issues.

Good luck to you and more importantly the horse.
		
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But what happens when you have finished with it Dancing queen? when you sell it on as sorted? The reason why I ask is because I have a rather horrible secret which for the first time ever I will share. 
About 20 yrs ago I sold my beautiful darling Arab gelding for a 15hh mare called poppy, God knows why! She was stunning to look at and had a good jump. I quickly realised she was too much for me (I am a qualified BHSAI, and was used to getting on friends problem horses) but there was something about her. She had zero respect for humans or any thoughts for her own safety. She thought nothing of rearing up and throwing herself over backwards. This progressed to napping backwards to a wall and rearing up , crushing rider against the wall. It became impossible to do any kind of ridden work with her at all, so I got help out with her. lots of it. We had trainers mounting her and when she wouldnt move away from the gate at all they questioned whether she had actually been broken!  We had vets, back men, teeth checked and all the time she just got worse and worse. As I said total disregard for her own safety as much as anything else. Some people told me to shoot her others said put her in a sale, others said ''try so and so or so and so. One day I decided to lead her out and then mount when I thought she was far enough away to  nap back to the yard.  This worked ...... or so I thought. We got out had half an hour of a lovely hack and was walking back down the country lane back towards home..... when she stopped. I could hear a car coming behind us but he saw us in plenty of time and stopped 100 yrds or so away from us. Her ears were flicking backwards and forwards and I could see her trying to see the car. She started to nap backwards until she was almost right up to the car. The driver got out to see if he could help me when she positioned herself over the bonnet , reared and came over backwards crushing me on the bonnet and sending me through the windscreen. I broke many bones and cant remember much in the immediate days after the event. Whilst I was in hospital without my knowledge my husband sent the mare to a local dealer , he sold it striaght on to a family.

A couple of  months later there was a headline in a local newpaper. A 12 yr old girl had been killed whilst out on her new horse, a 15hh bay mare called poppy. the two of them had been hacking down a bridlepath just off a main road. The mare napped backwards about 50 yrds and came out onto the road into the path of a lorry. Both mare and child were killed instantly.

I am so sorry to share this. It is my horrible secret. The mare should have been put to sleep. I was an experienced adult rider, an instructor. Have faith in what you feel, dont let the fluffy bunnies make you feel guilty. And before those of you criticise my husband for selling her to the dealer, dont! he lost a huge amount of money on this mare selling her on for £300 meat money as he couldnt bear for me to have anything more to do with her. He did what he thought was right to save his wife and mother of his 2 young children. The dealer knew the mares problems as we had used their outdoor school with the other trainers trying to ride her. In fact for a while we kept her at livery at the dealers yard so we had access to their facilities. So yes the dealer knew every problem the mare had!


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## traceyann (23 October 2011)

I did not save this horse because he looked good i saved him because i felt sorry for him And still do you cant like a horse covered in poo skin and bone and covered in cuts. I dont blame him all for this morning hes scared and they took a broom in to brush his bed back. Any type of whip stick or rope he explodes but the vet knew this. Iv been on the phone to emma and james and will phone richard tomorrow.  lm lucky at the moment i have my own land so im the only one who goes in the field but say that changes i end up in livery yards and someone falls in the field or goes out with a stick it doesnt bear thinking about. I think some horse just cant be helped and sadly i think he one of them.


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## Caledonia (23 October 2011)

traceyann said:



			I think some horse just cant be helped and sadly i think he one of them.
		
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Yes, sadly you are right. Especially a breed as sensitive as this. He's probably gone too far in his mind to fix. Damaged horses never forget. 
So sorry.


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## Mince Pie (23 October 2011)

Dancing Queen said:



			I would not PTS, but then again i like challenging horses.

I hope the vets can get to the root of the problem and then you can make a decision based on what they find.

I do believe that there are some horses which need experienced confident and kind handling and are too often PTS because the owners arent experienced and confident enough to help the horse though its issues.

Good luck to you and more importantly the horse.
		
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I think there is a difference between 'challenging' and 'downright dangerous' and unfortunately the OP's  horse seems to come under the latter category.

OP I would also PTS. People are getting seriously hurt by this horse and I think it is just luck that no one has been killed yet


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## fizzer (23 October 2011)

JuliaG what a sad post. I am sure many of us have had regrets about how we have handled situations regarding "problem horses" .

OP has to live with what she decides so she must do what she thinks is best.  Good luck.


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## Dancing Queen (23 October 2011)

HuliaG - what a shame and sad post.

i rescued a horse that was due to pts after putting her rider in a coma and she was classed as dangerous and feral.

She came right with time and care and proper handling but i never sold her on and i wouldnt have ever contemplated selling her. She stayed with me until her final days. I never fully trusted her around other people, but i trusted her with me implicitly and i think thats one reason why we clicked.  People who had dismissed her as dangerous were quite surprised at our bond. All i am stating is my experience and that just sometimes there can be a 'happier ending'

There could be a future for him.. the only person however who can make that decision is the OP.

The OP is in a situation now where she needs to make a decision based on the advice from the vets and her own feelings. And no one should chastise or chide her for her decision.


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## Holly Hocks (23 October 2011)

juliag said:



			But what happens when you have finished with it Dancing queen? when you sell it on as sorted? The reason why I ask is because I have a rather horrible secret which for the first time ever I will share. 
About 20 yrs ago I sold my beautiful darling Arab gelding for a 15hh mare called poppy, God knows why! She was stunning to look at and had a good jump. I quickly realised she was too much for me (I am a qualified BHSAI, and was used to getting on friends problem horses) but there was something about her. She had zero respect for humans or any thoughts for her own safety. She thought nothing of rearing up and throwing herself over backwards. This progressed to napping backwards to a wall and rearing up , crushing rider against the wall. It became impossible to do any kind of ridden work with her at all, so I got help out with her. lots of it. We had trainers mounting her and when she wouldnt move away from the gate at all they questioned whether she had actually been broken!  We had vets, back men, teeth checked and all the time she just got worse and worse. As I said total disregard for her own safety as much as anything else. Some people told me to shoot her others said put her in a sale, others said ''try so and so or so and so. One day I decided to lead her out and then mount when I thought she was far enough away to  nap back to the yard.  This worked ...... or so I thought. We got out had half an hour of a lovely hack and was walking back down the country lane back towards home..... when she stopped. I could hear a car coming behind us but he saw us in plenty of time and stopped 100 yrds or so away from us. Her ears were flicking backwards and forwards and I could see her trying to see the car. She started to nap backwards until she was almost right up to the car. The driver got out to see if he could help me when she positioned herself over the bonnet , reared and came over backwards crushing me on the bonnet and sending me through the windscreen. I broke many bones and cant remember much in the immediate days after the event. Whilst I was in hospital without my knowledge my husband sent the mare to a local dealer , he sold it striaght on to a family.

A couple of  months later there was a headline in a local newpaper. A 12 yr old girl had been killed whilst out on her new horse, a 15hh bay mare called poppy. the two of them had been hacking down a bridlepath just off a main road. The mare napped backwards about 50 yrds and came out onto the road into the path of a lorry. Both mare and child were killed instantly.

I am so sorry to share this. It is my horrible secret. The mare should have been put to sleep. I was an experienced adult rider, an instructor. Have faith in what you feel, dont let the fluffy bunnies make you feel guilty. And before those of you criticise my husband for selling her to the dealer, dont! he lost a huge amount of money on this mare selling her on for £300 meat money as he couldnt bear for me to have anything more to do with her. He did what he thought was right to save his wife and mother of his 2 young children. The dealer knew the mares problems as we had used their outdoor school with the other trainers trying to ride her. In fact for a while we kept her at livery at the dealers yard so we had access to their facilities. So yes the dealer knew every problem the mare had!
		
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I can't answer the problem in any way.  I don't have that level of experience.  But if I were in your shoes OP and I had read the above post, I wouldn't feel guilty if to PTS.  JuliaG's story is horrendous and it wouldn't be fair to pass the horse on.  However, I think your experience is different to the above in that I think you said that your horse is great to ride, it's the dealing on the floor which is a problem.  It sounds like it could be riggy behaviour, and if nothing is found at the vets, then I would be tempted to try one of the professionals who has been mentioned on this forum to help you out.  Good luck in whatever you decide to do.


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## brown tack (23 October 2011)

Very sorry for situation you are in.

But please just pts this horse, no ones life is wroth it, he's had his chance. It's not worked.


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## Hollycatt (23 October 2011)

What a terrible story about the little girl 

From my perspective, there are SO many abused and mistreated horses out there that would never lift a hoof, I would not waste time on one that has hurt so many people. If it was a dog that had badly bitten someone it would not be getting 5 chances to do so again - it would be PTS end of story. This horse can kill a whole lot easier than the majority of dogs. The money OP may spend on trainers etc to have a horse she may never feel safe and happy with would no doubt save quite a few horses from the sales.

I wish you all the luck in the world OP


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## luckyoldme (23 October 2011)

it sonds like you have had a very rough time and have given this poor lad every chance you can.You sound very caring and sensative so good luck .... No matter what happens you have tried your best.


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## dunkley (23 October 2011)

JuliaG - awful, awful story. Thank you for being brave enough to share it. My blood ran cold when I read it, because it is the case scenario that has been warned against so many times on this forum.  You were in no way to blame for what happened, but I can understand why it haunts you.  There is actually no point in even trying to opportion blame, but I do hope some people read it and inwardly digest, and possibly rethink their views.  OP, it is an appalling decision to make, and I feel for you.  Sometimes we have to just accept that we cannot do anymore. It doesn't make us a bad person.  Whether such a horse is sent to yet another expert, or sold on, or given away, the risk and danger is still being shifted to someone else, even if they are happy to do it.  I can quite understand why you may not want to put yourself at risk any longer.  You will make the right decision for your horse, I have no doubt.  Whatever you decide, be 100% sure it is _your_ decision, and _you_ are content with it.  I know what _I_ would do, but it would be _my_ decision. Good Luck.


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## Echo Bravo (23 October 2011)

I know Julieg after 25 years  about Poppy, but how did her husband feel, when he read the news as it coud have been one of his children. The OP will do what she needs to do, PTS or other. Me I think some of the human race should be pts as well.


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## angelish (23 October 2011)

for what its worth i think pts would be exactly the right thing to do in this situation ,this horse is clearly dangerous weather he's spanish or not ,that is no excuse 

i have been unlucky enough to come across a horse like this and nothing could of helped him ,he was stunning and the owner sold him on  she should have been brave enough to make the right choice and that was to pts god only knows how many people he has had in hospital now 

he could kill someone ,its alright saying send him to this or that trainer but how many "horse trainers" out there are what they make out to be ,most i know are full of hot air and would make the problem worse and i belive this horse could never be trusted or "retrained" 
a horse so badly mentaly effected in this way may never come right 

and anyone thinking of taking on a horse like this can not be trusted as i think anyone wanting to have him must be clinicaly insane (not you op as you clearly were not aware he was this bad) 


op don't let anyone make you feel guilty about pts this horse you have gone above and beyond trying to help him and have given him a nicer end than on a meat wagon for hours 

good luck


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## Circe (24 October 2011)

Hi 
When I posted on this it was the bases of your first post, Ive since read all the replies and read a couple of your other threads about him... Is he the same horse that bit you so you needed stitches ?
The trouble with getting a trainer to him is where to from there ? Do you ever trust him again? Do you sell him with the chance he could explode again and seriously hurt someone, or end up a welfare case again ?
I hope I am never in your position, (and I know I'm grouped in with the bunny huggers or tree huggers or whatever the term is ? ) but I wouldn't blame you if you cut your losses with this horse and had him humanely pts.
Whatever you decide, I wish you well.
Kx


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## traceyann (24 October 2011)

To everyone mind at rest this horse will die with me weather i keep him for the rest of my life. How ever long that may be. or he will be pts. The problem with him 80percent hes a dream then a switch gos on and thats it all hell breaks loose. And you cant reason with him. He only 15 hands if i sold him on he could end up with a child i couldnt live with that. This is nothing against anyone they did at the time what they thought was right.This is my third sleepless night i think iv made my mind up. I love him now very much enough to do right by him.


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## Goldenstar (24 October 2011)

please PTS before you or any one else is hurt do it quickly you tried to do a good thing but you have a family and friends who love you and you have a responsibility to protect yourself.
You owe your wise cob a lot now do your bit and end this now , it's not easy advice to give but I really believe you have been so lucky to escape being hurt.


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## Luci07 (24 October 2011)

Did Emma or James (apologies for being so familiar but can't spell the name of their yard!) come back to you? and also what was Richard Maxwells opinion as, unlike anyone else on this posting, actually knows you and the horse.


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## forestfantasy (24 October 2011)

My vet once said to me 'Sarah, some horses just don't want to be here'


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## Milanesa (24 October 2011)

Hey op. Sounds like you have done everything u can for the horse. I would pts if your vet finds nothIng now, as many others have said he could seriously injure you or sOmeone else. I commend you on being so strong and sticking to your guns on the fact he stays with u until his last breath, this is extremely honest. Some horses like u say are just not able tO be helped, it is a very few, but I believe you have done right by him and given him many a chance and tried many avenues, but at the end of the day a horse that is dangerous like this is no fun for anyone, horse included. To live a life of fear like this is not fair On him, for some reason he cannot get over this and his fight or flight instinct is too strong. Good lick and let us know the outcome. X


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## Natch (24 October 2011)

Having seen the rest of this thread I now realise a bit more about this horse and the problems, and would fully understand if the OP were to pts. 

As for the groom, the vets should have done a risk assessment, that risk assessment should have recommended something like not to be handled without hat and gloves, and never with only one person present. Either the vets are liable due to not performing a risk assessment or the groom failed in her duty to follow guidance.

I hope that you will insist on the above measures for everytime anybody handles him now, including you, and especially that there be two people present.


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## Frankie10 (24 October 2011)

Hi 
Really sad but I think you have done everything you can. Huge difference between a problem horse and a dangerous horse. 
Sadly, I have been in EXACTLY the same situation as you And had to make the right decision. 
Please pm me If you need any moral support from someone who has been there. 
The big question I guess is could anyone ever turn the horse around before it kills someone, or does he have something mentally wrong with him that could never be fixed ? 
X


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## traceyann (24 October 2011)

Iv been to the vets to see him they tried to xrays his neck as the vet think its the cause of his rearing. sadly hes panicked even under heavy sedation  he hasnt hurt anyone though. he got so stressed he overrode sedation so the vet said there going to let him calm down and call me and im going to take him in he does trust me and hopefully he will be calmer. I do think if there is a problem it will be in his neck also the vet has said his sugar levels are very high does anyone know about this problem. I do not give him anything with sugar in it.


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## Sandylou (24 October 2011)

traceyann said:



			Iv been to the vets to see him they tried to xrays his neck as the vet think its the cause of his rearing. sadly hes panicked even under heavy sedation  he hasnt hurt anyone though. he got so stressed he overrode sedation so the vet said there going to let him calm down and call me and im going to take him in he does trust me and hopefully he will be calmer. I do think if there is a problem it will be in his neck also the vet has said his sugar levels are very high does anyone know about this problem. I do not give him anything with sugar in it.
		
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Hi traceyann.
I don't know anything about sugar levels I'm afraid but I just wanted to say well done for taking your boy to the vets for a complete check up before making a final decision. I hope that they find something that you can work with to resolve his episodes.
Good luck x


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## Luci07 (24 October 2011)

traceyann said:



			Iv been to the vets to see him they tried to xrays his neck as the vet think its the cause of his rearing. sadly hes panicked even under heavy sedation  he hasnt hurt anyone though. he got so stressed he overrode sedation so the vet said there going to let him calm down and call me and im going to take him in he does trust me and hopefully he will be calmer. I do think if there is a problem it will be in his neck also the vet has said his sugar levels are very high does anyone know about this problem. I do not give him anything with sugar in it.
		
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Interesting about the sugar - there has been a lot said in previous posts on your thread about how Iberian horses can't tolerate sugar. Put a note up with what you feed him - you would be suprised at just how much sugar is in most standard feeds. As for overiding the sedation - that is pretty common with a stressed horse. I saw mine, being operated on for surgical colic and he fought the sedation for the entire (6 hour) operation.


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## ladyt25 (24 October 2011)

I really do feel for you OP as it's seems so sad as, from what you said, underneath this there is a lovely horse who you say is great to ride etc and I think that makes things harder as, if the horse was dangerous when you're on board then I think that's a whole different matter. This poor little horse does sound like he's just very scared and confused and there must be a reason why, whether it be triggered by physical pain or some dee-rooted mental issue (assuming there is no brain tumour - doesn't sound so if when ridden he is so good).

I may be very sad, and I have never actually done it myself (have wondered about it though as I have a quirky horse who will have moments where he just flips outs), but I would be so tempted to get a recommended animal communicator out - if they are as good as they make out to be then i'd love to hear what they say HE is saying!

I wish you all the best - i can't imagine how hard it must be as on the one hand you feel so sorry for him as he sounds scared and confused yet on the other you think how much more can you do? For some reason he just doesn't seem 100% comfortable with humans.


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## juliag (24 October 2011)

OP You have my complete and total respect, if I was with you a huge hug. What ever happens in the end you couldnt be doing more for your boy. Well done!. Wouldnt it be wonderful if the vets could find a reason which could be controlled. For me though poppy was just a bloody nutcase, this has brought back a lot of bad memories and I have been wandering around quite teary thinking about the parents of the child who was killed by poppy. I have to admit whilst in hospital I could only feel relief that I was never going to have to deal with the mare again.  I dont want to see any animal being put to sleep for no real reason but there are horses out there (not that many fortunatley) that you really cant do anything for and my thoughts really are with anyone who has to make the decision to put to sleep because an animal is dangerous. Please Please learn from my mistakes though....... and dont spend 25 yrs regretting something that you should have done but didnt.


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## FionaM12 (24 October 2011)

Juliag, I think it's very brave of you to disclose your tragic story. However, you didn't do anything wrong. You were injured and in hospital when the horse was sold. The dealer acted wrongly IF he sold her on without disclosing the problems. He might not have, the family who bought her might have thought they could cope.

Had you not been in hospital, things might have been different. None of it was your fault. A terrible, tragic accident.


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## Pale Rider (24 October 2011)

Hi Traceyann,

I don't want to give you any sort of false hope or anything, but the high blood sugar comment went off like a light bulb for me.

I have a horse with sever sugar intolerance and she becomes aggressive and totally unmanageable if her blood sugar level rises. It's like she has a switch in her head which suddenly and unexpectedly turns her into an animal that wants to kill you. Teeth feet the lot.
It's 6 yrs now since I discovered what set her off and now that I know what it is I've never had a problem since.
In fact she is a trainable, bidable trustworthy horse who I can ride tackless she's that good.

Maybe your horse has a similar problem.


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## brown tack (24 October 2011)

FionaM12 said:



			Juliag, I think it's very brave of you to disclose your tragic story. However, you didn't do anything wrong. You were injured and in hospital when the horse was sold. The dealer acted wrongly IF he sold her on without disclosing the problems. He might not have, the family who bought her might have thought they could cope.

Had you not been in hospital, things might have been different. None of it was your fault. A terrible, tragic accident.
		
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I argee 

You had a close relationship with the dealers, and in my eyes they did the wrong thing. Your husband sold the horse for meat money, not as a riding horse, I'm sure he thought it was going in the food chain.


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## juliag (24 October 2011)

thanks Fiona, thats really nice of you to say that. I was actually quite interested to read the post about the animal communicator. I am the first to be sceptical about this sort of thing........... however, one of my best friends and someone I respect a lot called a reiki healer out to her horse after being told he should be put down through lameness. I cant remember what exactly was causing the lameness but my friend had this lady out purely for the healing element. It staggered my friend to find that the horse was apparently talking to the lady in question and telling her pretty much his life story! Well all I can say is my friend was transformed and is now learning Reiki herself although she says she has no ability to communicate with her horses but they all benefit from her performing reiki. I have watched this lady communicate with several horses now and it is facinating. Not only do they appear to love it, totally relaxing under her hands and nudging her for more when she stops, (she does not actually touch them at any point) but they all seem to 'talk' to her. One example is,
12hh welsh mare bought from the welsh sales by my friend for her daughters to pony club. Hated jumping and refused to go over the smallest cross pole. my friend would never force a pony to do anything and was facing the decison to sell the little mare after another disastrous pony club rally. Reiki lady turned up and pony told Reiki lady she hated what the girls were trying to make her do. Reiki lady explained to pony that jumping small jumps was part of her job and that in return she had a good home, food and shelter and was safe. The pony then apparently asked her how high it was expected to jump, this question was relayed to my friend who said 2' would be great. The pony then supposedly asked how big 2' was and was led into the school where a 2' jump was put up for the pony to see. (yes I know you all think I am completly bonkers now!! but bear with me!!!). My friend was then made to promise the pony it would never be asked to jump higher than this. From that day on as long as the jumps were no higher than 2 foot the pony will jump happily and has never refused another jump since!

Sorry didnt mean to hijack this thread, but I would have def had a Reiki person out to speak to poppy if I had known about them in those days!


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## juliag (24 October 2011)

ok so everyone thinks I am a total nutcase now!  The sugar thing is very interesting though isnt it!


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## brown tack (24 October 2011)

Another thing I agree with, had a AC out to a tb I had, was spot on with ALL his history and issues.

Seem happen with a few other people's horses too, such as a unexplained fears, lameness, back issues and stressy horses too


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## Pearlsasinger (24 October 2011)

juliag said:



			ok so everyone thinks I am a total nutcase now!  The sugar thing is very interesting though isnt it!
		
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I don't think you're a total nutcase, I've had experience of very accurate AC.
I've also had experience of a horse with a very extreme reaction to sugar (and cereals) in her diet.  She truly couldn't tolerate any refined sugar, although she was ok with grass, which might seem odd to some people.  She was like a drug addict, if her feed was late, her behaviour changed apparently without warning, although those of us who knew her well could spot the subtle changes.  She could certainly be explosive.


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## MarinaBay (24 October 2011)

First of all OP I have a huge amount of respect for you. What you are going through cannot be easy & I am sure many would have just passed him on. I hope the vets find an answer for you and your boy. 

Juliag - What an awful time it must have been for you. You cannot blame yourself but thank you for sharing your story it can't have been easy for you. I am sure no one thinks you are a nut case! The story about the welshie touched me - I had an animal communicator out to me - he was coming to the yard, I didn't believe it would work but he got my mare spot on! When asked why she was naughty he said she told him she rears because she finds it funny and is just being a cow! But my friends arab - he walked across the yard & said is he lame, my friend said no - he said well your horse is telling me he is in pain coming from his shoulder, 2 weeks later he was lame, then retired due to his arthritic shoulder! 



juliag said:



			ok so everyone thinks I am a total nutcase now!  The sugar thing is very interesting though isnt it!
		
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## traceyann (25 October 2011)

Well he had his xray he was very good with his mummy there even i was surprised. It came back clear. Now we have the sugar levels this what he fed huge haynet everynight handfull safe and sound brewersyeast and calmer. Never fed apple or carrots as i know it blows his brains he is on good grazing though


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## Pale Rider (25 October 2011)

Perhaps the grazing is too rich and his aggressive outbursts could well coincide with fluctuations in the sugar levels in the grass.  Perhaps soaking his hay and increasing the amount and reducing the time he is grazing may reduce the overall sugar levels to where he copes better.


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## Pale Rider (25 October 2011)

Treating him like a lamanitic may be the key.


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## Natch (25 October 2011)

I'm a bit hazy about if it would indicate high blood sugar, but I wonder if this horse could be insulin resistant? 

For diet, with the process of elimination could you take him off everything except for 12 hour soaked hay?


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## Pearlsasinger (25 October 2011)

Naturally said:



			I'm a bit hazy about if it would indicate high blood sugar, but I wonder if this horse could be insulin resistant? 

For diet, with the process of elimination could you take him off everything except for 12 hour soaked hay?
		
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I second this advice.

Safe & Sound has 5% sugar, that amount would have blown my mare's mind.
Sugar + yeast = alcohol.  If he is susceptible, it's no wonder he's aggressive.


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## noblesteed (25 October 2011)

Mine (spanish x) is intolerant to sugar too, he doesn't get aggressive but I worked out that's what makes him ultra sharp, spooky, bucky and nappy (and makes me get thrown off)

There are lots of feeds I can't give him and found Safe and sound too sugary. I know many Iberian owners have success with Simple Systems feeds, in fact that is what I was advised to feed mine by members of BAPSH forum, but I couldn;t find a stockist nearby.

As an example I will explain what mine is now fed - Summer - 24 hour turnout with a few D & H equibites for vits and mins in a Greenguard muzzle ALL DAY AND NIGHT. Winter - 12 hour turnout unmuzzled (late out if it's frosty) in a lightweight rug, in at night unrugged with 1 slice soaked last-year's hay plus a handful of Topspec lite chaff OR (as he often turns his nose up at that!) a tiny amount of spiller's cool fibre, with his equibites added. I often have to add his Calmer to the feed to take the edge off.
Many people would be horrified at the tiny amount my horse gets to eat, he is treated like a laminitic BUT he is STILL chunky even on that (and ridden 5-6 times a week!). Thankfully he is calm and settled in his brain which is what is important.

But like everyone says, it is up to you and the vet to decide what's best. If you tried the 'sugarfree diet' and it didn't work you would STILL have a dangerous horse on your hands...


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## traceyann (25 October 2011)

I would give this ago but why is he safe as houses ridden never ever spooks and does every asked. It seems the person who beat him only did it on foot maybe ?  or when he was backed at the stud Im still not sure what to do yes they found a problem but is it the right problem. And next time he explodes will i be so lucky next time. I now have doubt in my mind and i had made the decision to pts


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## SpottedCat (25 October 2011)

traceyann said:



			I would give this ago but why is he safe as houses ridden never ever spooks and does every asked. It seems the person who beat him only did it on foot maybe ?  or when he was backed at the stud Im still not sure what to do yes they found a problem but is it the right problem. And next time he explodes will i be so lucky next time. I now have doubt in my mind and i had made the decision to pts
		
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Personally, I would stick with your original choice. You could cut all the sugar out of his diet and have a safe horse at the end of it as long as it was managed properly, or it could kill you in the meantime. Also, all very well saying you will never sell him/would PTS if you couldn't keep him, but what happens if (heaven forbid) you get hit by a bus tomorrow and someone thinks they will 'rescue' a nice looking horse that's on the way to Potters?! I would probably pay for a post mortem exam though, because otherwise I'd always wonder....


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## scarymare (25 October 2011)

Poor you.  I'm afraid that the very well intentioned posters on here have never experienced the type of aggression you talk about.  I have as have some others.  Back your gut - the indescribable feeling of relief once you are again safe (and others) will be testement in itself to the fact you are making the right decision.  Feeding him this that or the other will make NO DIFFERENCE.  He is fine when ridden, lethal on the ground.  This rules out brain tumours, back etc etc etc.


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## crabbymare (25 October 2011)

have just read the whole thread, and can only say I think you are doing the right thing very sad though it is. If god forbid you had an accident or illness that needed you to go into hospital for a while then you would be putting someone else at risk if they had to look after him. He is for whatever reason in his past a very disturbed horse and even if you could deal with the high sugar levels it may not solve his mental problems with his past. I am not a pts for no reason person but sometimes it is the right thing to do and to me this is one of them.
Very well done to you for being brave enough to let him go quietly and not to ship him off to a sale or meatman, if all owners were like you many horses would be a lot happier and the occasional horse that is for whatever reason dangerous would not hurt anyone else.  Hugs to you.


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## Amymay (25 October 2011)

and someone thinks they will 'rescue' a nice looking horse that's on the way to Potters?!
		
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As the OP themselves did.


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## samlf (25 October 2011)

Having read most/all of the thread my initial thoughts were that you should PTS because its too dangerous and maybe he cant be helped. BUT the fact that vets found hte high blood sugar (indicating insulin resistance) I would not, personally, be able to PTS a horse htat I knew had a medical problem that could have caused all of the aggression and I hadnt tried my VERY best to put that right first. 
Of course it's always your choice and I dont think anyone could judge you either way.


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## ABC (25 October 2011)

As I'm sure other people have already mentioned, there is usually a reason horses go to the meat man. 

It's sad, and I've no doubt you rescued him with the best of intentions but it would have been far less traumatic for you and him if he'd have gone to Potters. Horrible as it sounds. 

I wish you both well, do what you think is best


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## SpottedCat (25 October 2011)

samlf said:



			Having read most/all of the thread my initial thoughts were that you should PTS because its too dangerous and maybe he cant be helped. BUT the fact that vets found hte high blood sugar (indicating insulin resistance) I would not, personally, be able to PTS a horse htat I knew had a medical problem that could have caused all of the aggression and I hadnt tried my VERY best to put that right first. 
Of course it's always your choice and I dont think anyone could judge you either way.
		
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Please can you point me towards the scientific literature which links insulin resistance with aggression in equines - I'd be interested to read it. Thanks


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## traceyann (25 October 2011)

I have told all my friends if anything happen to me he must be pts. I have thought this though because he is dangerous and iv had some close calls. Bad as it sounds i have considered all of this


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## Amymay (25 October 2011)

So will he put down today at the vets, or will you be bringing him home to have it done?


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## SpottedCat (25 October 2011)

I don't think it sounds bad - and TBH if that's the way you feel about him (and rightly from what you've written), I have no real comprehension of why you would want to keep putting yourself in such unnecessary danger and why he isn't already on a one-way trip to the vets (or your PTS method of choice!).


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## juliag (25 October 2011)

I hope my subsequent posts about the Reiki etc have not made you change your mind or given you doubts. go with your gut instinct, yes we tried everything with poppy but an animal communicator. Yes if I had known about these I would have got one in but the horse would have still ended up being sold, once I didnt trust her and was becoming afraid of what she was capable of she would have had to have gone even if she had communicated to an ac what her issues were. The fact of the matter is she was so dangerous she killed a child. I am truly sorry if my babbling on has given you doubts I didnt mean too. Go with gut instinct, you will have to deal with your horse every day, you deserve to be safe and unafraid yourself..... for your little cobs sake! what would happen to him if something happened to you??


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## touchstone (25 October 2011)

SpottedCat said:



			Please can you point me towards the scientific literature which links insulin resistance with aggression in equines - I'd be interested to read it. Thanks 

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I don't think that there is any scientific evidence concerning equines, although there is this zoology paper relating to agression and metabolic syndrome:- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19800745 which suggest the opposite would be true.

Personally if the op's decision has been made to pts then I'd go along with that, I don't think there will be any regrets by pts for the op and it could well be a kindness for the horse.  There could well be further regrets in keeping the horse alive and even tragic consequences and the potential for an unhappy horse.


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## Brandy (25 October 2011)

I have just read the thread, and think it is very easy to comment on what you would or wouldn't do in the same circumstances. My instinct if often that someone else might manage the horse or the problem better, but there are horses and problems that can;t be managed, for any number of reasons.

I will say that there are worse fates for a horse than being PTS. Remember, he will know nothing of it, and will not know your plans. 

Yes other people might do something differently but they are other people and YOU are the one who will have to deal with this horse for the rest of his life. 

JuliaG - thank you for sharing your story, it is the exact reason that sometimes a horse should be PTS, and sometimes this does need pointing out.

Out of interest, and as a cynical person (!) does anyone know of a decent animal communicator in the east anglia region? Might be worth a try with my idiot creature.


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## Magicmillbrook (25 October 2011)

OP, I have read all the posts and feel so deeply for you and your difficult descision.  You have done so much for this horse and if you do PTS he will feel nothing and you can reasure yourself that he has wanted for nothing in his last year - hugs to you


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## Pally (25 October 2011)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I second this advice.

Safe & Sound has 5% sugar, that amount would have blown my mare's mind.
Sugar + yeast = alcohol.  If he is susceptible, it's no wonder he's aggressive.
		
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I am no expert and have no knowledge of supplements etc but I would agree with this.

My friend has a gelding who would bronc, she took him off all hard feed and supplements and he has calmed down considerably, no more bronc'ing.

However, if he is dangerous then I would have to agree with those who have advised PTS, as much as i love horses I would never endanger either myself or my daughter with a dangerous horse.


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## Goldenstar (25 October 2011)

I was thinking of you while I did mine this morning please be careful I was attacked once and was lucky to escape with out serious injury you will never be able to trust him even if you find a reason for his behaviour there are far worse fates for a horse than to be PTS under the supervision of the people who have cared for it. Lots of hugs.


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## Natch (25 October 2011)

scarymare said:



			Feeding him this that or the other will make NO DIFFERENCE.  He is fine when ridden, lethal on the ground.  This rules out brain tumours, back etc etc etc.
		
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Unless you are a vet and have examined this horse, how can you possibly know that it would make no difference, or that being okay to ride but not to lead necessarily rules out those things?  

The aggression on the ground vs in the saddle thing may simply be that he knows how to be aggressive to another being on the ground, but not how to do so with a rider on his back and out of sight. 



traceyann said:



			I would give this ago but why is he safe as houses ridden never ever spooks and does every asked. It seems the person who beat him only did it on foot maybe ?  or when he was backed at the stud Im still not sure what to do yes they found a problem but is it the right problem. And next time he explodes will i be so lucky next time. I now have doubt in my mind and i had made the decision to pts
		
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Please will you reassure me that he is being handled with a minimum of hat (done up!) and gloves on now? Preferably also a body protector, and a long lead rope.

I don't envy you and your decision, and still respect it no matter which way you decide to go.


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## traceyann (25 October 2011)

All of the above i promise i not that brave and always have


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## Naryafluffy (25 October 2011)

Naturally said:



			Please will you reassure me that he is being handled with a minimum of hat (done up!) and gloves on now? Preferably also a body protector, and a long lead rope.

I don't envy you and your decision, and still respect it no matter which way you decide to go.
		
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And that you won't handle the horse if you are there on your own, it's so easy for accidents to happen never mind throwing on half a tonne of unpredictable horse flesh.
I always cringe when you read stories of people being killed by horses due to freak accidents.
PM if you want moral support, this horse has had plenty of chances by the sounds of it, how many more chances does he get.


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## boxcarhorse (25 October 2011)

Sometimes the best, kindest and safest thing is to put a horse down.  It does sound like he is dangerous, you are being responsible by saying that you won't just pass him on and it sounds like, having bought him from the meat man you were his last chance anyway.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## Pearlsasinger (25 October 2011)

I have posted further up this thread about my experience with my sugar-intolerant mare.  She would have been PTS in the very near future (only Christmas got in the way).  We didn't stop the sugar because of her behaviour, it was a completely different reason.  We would never have known that her behaviour could be improved and wo,uld have had no regrets about PTS, having done all that we could think of to make her life better.  As it was, we kept her for another 12 yrs but could never trust her completely because we never knew if passers-by had fed her.  She became a field ornament.  Admittedly she was a very useful companion to her best friend and very affectionate towards people.  We had only a short distance to lead her after we moved to our own place, so she was easily handled.  
OP, if you decide to PTS, I certainly wouldn't say that this was the wrong thing to do, you need to make sure that you and others are safe. 
If you do go down the 'no sugar' route, be careful.  For the 1st 3 days my mare's behaviour became even more odd, she cowered at the back of her box, when it was time to go out to graze and really was like a drug addict going 'cold turkey'.  If I was to do it again, I would withdraw the sugar more gradually.


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## ILuvCowparsely (25 October 2011)

speek to Chris Haywood or Pippa Haywood  they are amazing trainers.


 There is NOTHING  Chris  wont get on and Train. Believe me some of the horses  he told me what they were like before   one being an !*hh horse he bought for a £1  bolted out the arena    jumped out arena  etc. Now he has it doing dressage and got placed with it .http://www.deepmillfarm.com/index.php/showjumping-training


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## annaellie (25 October 2011)

I have not read all the replys so hopefully I won't repeat anything, I felt I had to reply my old boy 17.2 used to rear and box, if you hit him it made him ten times worse. He was also a git for riding we bought him really cheap cause the advise was pts he is dangerous :-( it can be done my boy was hard work lots of tears and days that I felt I couldn't cope but with firm boundaries voice worked well chiffney using all the correct equipment he turned a corner and became a horse that we learned tons together. I had an excellent instructor and YO who helped advise me. 
Am not knocking your decision cause I know myself the worry of someone else getting hurt or worse is a constant worry but it can be done


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## Tonty Tont (25 October 2011)

I have read all of the replies, and I really do feel for you OP. I can't imagine how difficult this is for you.

I just hope you do what is best for you and your horse, and if you PTS, you do so when you feel it is the right time.

Sending my best wishes x


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## Naryafluffy (25 October 2011)

Leviathan said:



			speek to Chris Haywood or Pippa Haywood  they are amazing trainers.


 There is NOTHING  Chris  wont get on and Train. Believe me some of the horses  he told me what they were like before   one being an !*hh horse he bought for a £1  bolted out the arena    jumped out arena  etc. Now he has it doing dressage and got placed with it .http://www.deepmillfarm.com/index.php/showjumping-training

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The problem being is that this horse isn't a problem to ride, it's on the ground that it's dangerous and unpredictable.
It's a good decision that it won't move home, now your difficult decision will be how many more chances does he get.


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## Tammytoo (25 October 2011)

Magicmillbrook said:



			OP, I have read all the posts and feel so deeply for you and your difficult descision.  You have done so much for this horse and if you do PTS he will feel nothing and you can reasure yourself that he has wanted for nothing in his last year - hugs to you
		
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Well said.


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## annaellie (25 October 2011)

ETA if you do make the pts decision then am sure that will be the right one for your horse, and only you know your horse best, I was just giving my experience on it


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## ILuvCowparsely (25 October 2011)

what about a horse whisperer then.??


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## Goldenstar (25 October 2011)

To all of you say  so and so is a wonderful trainer and can 'sort ' any horse how would you feel if it was your horse and you sent it to a trainer and the trainer got badly hurt or even killed? An aggressive unpredictable horse is very very dangerous, what if a stranger or a child strayed in to it's field ?these are the things that the OP is thinking about ,if this horse os sugar intolerant her vet will advise her what to do but if he is lovely to ride I have to say it is unlikely to solve this handling issue. 
I will make myself unpopular by saying people's safety must always come first this is why OP is not passing the horse on, it may be that some one else may be able to sort this but it is a terrible risk to take.


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## cbmcts (25 October 2011)

OP, whatever decision you make that you are happy (wrong word but you know what I mean!) with is the right one for both you and the horse.

I do understand as I have an unpredictable horse too and while I don't worry about handling him (15 years of practice with him and no, I'm not brave, just knew his 'triggers')  it used to terrify me that he would do serious damage to someone if they got in his way while he was having a meltdown. 

I ended up retiring mine and sending him to retirement livery so that there wouldn't be any random peeps in and around him but despite FULL disclosure of his issues before he went there I found that they still didn't listen to my advice (as I wouldn't be handling him on a day to day basis) and had to find out the hard way how to deal with him - these are very sensible, quiet, experienced horse people who still thought they knew better than his life long owner. The point is that even if you gave/sold/lent him with all his problems out in the open a lot of people still don't quite believe you and you see how that could go...so at least PTS takes away that concern.


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## Frankie10 (25 October 2011)

It's a shame that there aren't more responsible horse people like this OP. It takes more guts to make the right decision that to pass a horse on. A dangerous, unpredictable horse is bloody scary- OP you won't realise how relieved you will actually feel when you no longer have to look after a scary horse any longer. 
It sounds like the OP has tried everything possible and is being really responsible in her decision & I think she deserves all the support possible.
Nobody wants to put a horse down.I honestly think you're making the right decision. 
X


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## ILuvCowparsely (25 October 2011)

Goldenstar said:



			To all of you say  so and so is a wonderful trainer and can 'sort ' any horse how would you feel if it was your horse and you sent it to a trainer and the trainer got badly hurt or even killed? An aggressive unpredictable horse is very very dangerous, what if a stranger or a child strayed in to it's field ?these are the things that the OP is thinking about ,if this horse os sugar intolerant her vet will advise her what to do but if he is lovely to ride I have to say it is unlikely to solve this handling issue. 
I will make myself unpopular by saying people's safety must always come first this is why OP is not passing the horse on, it may be that some one else may be able to sort this but it is a terrible risk to take.
		
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 bit melodramatic.

 FYI  my horse bucked me off  and nearly killed me.  I was to nervous to ride him let alone spend any time on the yard with him.  Chris Haywood trained my horse so well that this year in may  i went  from doing one quiet sponsored ride and doing only 3 jumps IE straw bales  , to  doing  at least 50 JUMPS.   thanx to Chris Haywood. He works with horses on the ground as well as riding . Horse Trainers dont only just ride you know. 
 If this horse is so bad it needs to be with a horse trainer like Richard Maxwell  if he cant make it better then the best option is PTS.


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## mulledwhine (25 October 2011)

I comportly understand where you are coming frI'm, but.... And I am a bunny hugger!!!!'

She is doing everything! I hope the OP finds a medical reason, if not....,, it hurts me but she is right


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## lastchancer (25 October 2011)

Leviathan said:



			bit melodramatic.

 FYI  my horse bucked me off  and nearly killed me.  I was to nervous to ride him let alone spend any time on the yard with him.  Chris Haywood trained my horse so well that this year in may  i went  from doing one quiet sponsored ride and doing only 3 jumps IE straw bales  , to  doing  at least 50 JUMPS.   thanx to Chris Haywood. He works with horses on the ground as well as riding . Horse Trainers dont only just ride you know. 
 If this horse is so bad it needs to be with a horse trainer like Richard Maxwell  if he cant make it better then the best option is PTS.
		
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I have read all your posts on this thread and don't think you are helping, at all. Is there any chance you could just go away? It must be past your bedtime. Failing that you could perhaps try to re-read the thread along with the other threads about this particular horse, then you may have some idea what the OP is dealing with.


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## mulledwhine (25 October 2011)

Harsh !!!!


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## Goldenstar (25 October 2011)

But true


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## hairycob (26 October 2011)

Leviathan,

there is more than a slight difference between bucking & this horses behaviour! 
The poor OPs situation has been playing on my mind & it occured to me that we completely accept that some people are mentally ill due to chemical imbalances/ brain damage but we never seem to think of this being possible for an animal. For all we know this horse might have been slightly starved of oxygen at birth, suffered a bang on the head or be the horse equivalent of schizophrenic/psychotic. A Vet is unlikely to find any of these & you could go on forever with different trainers/feeding/management regimes to no effect. IMO there comes a time when you have to say enough is enough. The poor OP has already been talking to Richard Maxwell, but people keep blithely saying "try Richard Maxwell" etc (totally ignoring the fact that this is a very expensive option, because it won't be one half day visit & problem solved, will it). 
This horse could easily have killed two people in the last few days & I am not ashamed to say that if he had been mine the Hunt would have been out the day after he had me on the floor like that.


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## Goldenstar (26 October 2011)

OP I hope all this is helping you if not perhaps stop reading, how are you this morning I am thinking of you and try to keep your chin up.


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## scarymare (26 October 2011)

Yes, I keep thinking about you too OP.  Makes my problems with my injured broody look so b***** trivial.  You sound like you are in bits.  I really hope you have a good support network around you at a time like this.  I can actually 'feel' the stress in your posts.  I'm not going to repeat anything already said and hope you and he are free from mental anguish soon. x x x


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## traceyann (26 October 2011)

Went to vets last night to do the deed as soon as i saw his face i just see the scared horse i see had the market. I just couldnt do it. Iv left him at the vets today because i got myself in such a state. I dont want to pts but i dont want him home either


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## touchstone (26 October 2011)

Traceyann, a scared horse is an unhappy horse, I honestly think that pts might well be a blessing for him, free from fear pain and suffering.  He isn't a healthy horse mentally, that is what you've got to consider.  If I were you I'd ring the vets and ask them to do it now, the anticipation and planning is the worst thing, once it is done it will be relief for him and yourself. xx


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## brown tack (26 October 2011)

Agh, hugs to you Hun 

(((( hugs))))


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## crabbymare (26 October 2011)

If he is at the vets is there a time of day when he is more relaxed that they could pts quietly? perhaps early mornng when nobody is around?  would it be better after all you have gone through for them to do it and for you to see him when he is gone and the fear has gone from him so that you will know he is finally at peace with himself?  it does sound as if you are totally in bits at the moment which is very understandable. I'm sure the people there would give him carrots/apples or whatever food he enjoys and once he is sedated it will be very quick and he will have no more stress or worry and the horse that is scared of life you saw last night will never have to be scared again. 
I really feel for you as you are in a horrible place at the moment, but once he has gone and you can grieve properly without the pressure of knowing he could badly hurt someone you will have a huge responsibility removed from your mind.


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## Spotsrock (26 October 2011)

I firmly believe some animals have mental health issues same as some people. I have a rescue with major issues but he is SAFE to handle and when ridden in an enclosed space.

I do not want sympathy and hope you can see what I am trying to say, I am not trying to 'humanize' horses but I genuinly don't think we are that different in some ways.

I had a mentally ill housemate once, as it got worse he got more unpredictable. Upshot he is serving 2 life sentences for what he did to me in one day. I am lucky to be alive. That was a 10 stone man. Think how much more dangerous your half tonne horse is, and he comes with his own lethal weapons.

My old housemate was so confused and desperate that he could not process information in a rational way and wanted to die. PTS could well be the blessed relief your horse has, in his screwed up way, been begging for. Horses aren't really able to commit suicide so sometimes when things are desperate we have to help them. Far kinder than mental institutions and prisons or life support and endless pain and agony, I wish we could be so kind to our fellow humans.

Please be strong, PTS would be a blessing for you, anyone else who may in future come in to contact with your horses, and, from what I have read, your horse, he doesn't sound like a happy chap who loves his life.

As safely as you can, let him know you love him, then let him go.

If you don't PTS then for goodness sake please only handle in full safety gear with someone present, now is that realistic for the rest of his (or your, if shorter) life? Put in place a living will so if he kills or vegitates you he is PTS before he does it to someone else.

This is the hardest, but possibly the kindest decision you will ever make, I think you are so brave for considering it, you have the support of so many people through this forum, 

BE STRONG, BE SAFE.


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## Goldenstar (26 October 2011)

Oh I wish I could hug you you can't go on with this he's at the vets he can't stay there for ever you are right not to want him home. be brave now they will make it easy for him,your family and friends will support you through this and all of us from afar. I have been here and put down a physically healthy horse that was aggressive I bred her nothing awful happened to her in her life it was awful a long and horrible tale that I won't burden you with I had her PTS as a 3 year old it tore me apart I have no children and my horses are my family but I could not go on with being bitten kicked and battered by her front legs I spend a fortune at the vets etc nothing could be found wrong with her. It was awful but it was the right thing for her and for me.It took ages to recover and reading all this takes me straight back to that time but I know I did the best thing in a gotten situation I never speak of it and it's difficult to write it here but I hope it might held a little


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## Sandylou (26 October 2011)

I don't how I feel about this OP. there is probably someone out there that could help this horse to trust again but that someone won't be easy to find and certainly wont be cheap.
If it were me (and I'm not suggesting what you should or shouldn't do here) I would give him 1 final chance now that he has been diagnosed with a medical problem. Work to manage that and poss wait for a space at Richard maxwells. But then his dangerous behaviour and the risk of someone being seriously hurt or killed comes into play and whether that risk is just too big.
I'm sorry, that was no help at all 
Trust yourself, there's no doubt that you will make the right decision. My thoughts are with you tracyanne x


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## SpottedCat (26 October 2011)

traceyann said:



			Went to vets last night to do the deed as soon as i saw his face i just see the scared horse i see had the market. I just couldnt do it. Iv left him at the vets today because i got myself in such a state. I dont want to pts but i dont want him home either
		
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Please don't feel you have to be there with him. You don't, and no-one should judge you for that. If the way you can deal with it is to ring the vets and ask them to go ahead over the phone, then that is what you should do.


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## Goldenstar (26 October 2011)

Rotten situation help not held sorry I was getting upset and spelling was worse than usual


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## Snoozinsusan (26 October 2011)

SpottedCat said:



			Please don't feel you have to be there with him. You don't, and no-one should judge you for that. If the way you can deal with it is to ring the vets and ask them to go ahead over the phone, then that is what you should do.
		
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Agree with this.  OP you have done your best for this horse.  My thoughts are with you.


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## Dancing Queen (26 October 2011)

TBH you need to make this decision in conjunction with the vets advice - I would stay off the forum and make the decision that is right for you and the horse.

No body on here really knows you or what you are going through.  Then when you have made a decision fill us in - I dont want you to make a decision based on views from people who you are never ever likely to meet. What happens in your life doesnt impact anyone on the forum. Do what you feel is right.


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## hairycob (26 October 2011)

Traceyann,

Where are you? The horse doesn't need you to be there for him if you are going to be in bits, but it sounds like YOU need someone to be there for you - hugs, tissues, chocolate, wine - whatever it takes to help you through this.


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## misterjinglejay (26 October 2011)

Hugs to you, hon. If you need to talk, pm me.......wish I could help more than that.


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## scarymare (26 October 2011)

Tracyann

You do not have to be there.  I am in Aberdeenshire but I'm sure there is somebody local who will help out.  Unless you can stay happy at the injection stage and can manage not let him know you are upset then you are probably best not to be there.  Agree that you should stay off forum and clear your head.  If you do decide to PTS then the feeling of relief will be overwhelming.  Head needs to rule heart here.


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## Mince Pie (26 October 2011)

Dancing Queen said:



			TBH you need to make this decision in conjunction with the vets advice - I would stay off the forum and make the decision that is right for you and the horse.

No body on here really knows you or what you are going through.  Then when you have made a decision fill us in - I dont want you to make a decision based on views from people who you are never ever likely to meet. What happens in your life doesnt impact anyone on the forum. Do what you feel is right.
		
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Good post.

Hugs to you OP x


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## Achinghips (26 October 2011)

What about a sanctuary for him? One experienced in difficult horses?

Did the vet ex ray his head, btw?


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## Mince Pie (26 October 2011)

Achinghips said:



			What about a sanctuary for him? One experienced in difficult horses?

Did the vet ex ray his head, btw?
		
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Would you really do that?! At the last count this horse has put at least 5 people in hospital, it's only a matter of time before it kills someone.


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## Mynstrel (26 October 2011)

broke_but_happy said:



			Good post.

Hugs to you OP x
		
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I agree x


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## Achinghips (26 October 2011)

broke_but_happy said:



			Would you really do that?! At the last count this horse has put at least 5 people in hospital, it's only a matter of time before it kills someone.
		
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Thankyou I have read the thread. That is why I stated "one experienced in dealing with difficult horses" by this I mean "dangerous". 

I posed this as a question as I don't know what these types of places could offer, or indeed if such places even exist that would be able to take the extreme safety precautions that this horse obviously requires.


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## Brandy (26 October 2011)

My thoughts are with you Tracyann, and hope you are not suffering too much as a result of this. It must be such a difficult position to be in. Have the vets made any recommendations? I say this as we had a horse in for livery once, and it was unpredictable (I was young and stupid and didn't think it was that bad) 


The vets came out for something quite minor, can't even remember what, just remember that horse EXTREME reaction to the vet. It happened two or three more times, and the vet said the horse should be pts before it injured someone. And honestly, this horse was NOT THAT BAD. So just wondered if the vets had given an opinion?

Whatever you decide, just remember that you have ot failed this horse, even if it is PTS in the end. He was failed well before you took him on.


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## Mince Pie (26 October 2011)

Achinghips said:



			Thankyou I have read the thread. That is why I stated "one experienced in dealing with difficult horses" by this I mean "dangerous". 

I posed this as a question as I don't know what these types of places could offer, or indeed if such places even exist that would be able to take the extreme safety precautions that this horse obviously requires.
		
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I wasn't implying that you hadn't  But personally, if it was my horse, I couldn't live with myself if anyone was killed by him.


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## Naryafluffy (26 October 2011)

Achinghips said:



			Thankyou I have read the thread. That is why I stated "one experienced in dealing with difficult horses" by this I mean "dangerous". 

I posed this as a question as I don't know what these types of places could offer, or indeed if such places even exist that would be able to take the extreme safety precautions that this horse obviously requires.
		
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The OP has already stated that the horse will die with her, be it soon or in years times, she will not pass him onto anyone else given his history. I can completely understand this sentiment and is probably what I would do in the same situation.

My thoughts are with you OP, not an easy decision to make, see what the vet says, and maybe explore the possibility of a second opinion.
I know from memory that Monty Roberts wouldn't actually give advice on this sort of aggression after giving advice that didn't end happily (not going into detail as the OP doesn't need to worry about what happened to someone else), I do wonder if Richard Maxwell would be similar from the same point of view that the OP will not pass him on, do you want it on your concience if something happens?


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## traceyann (26 October 2011)

This will be my last post for a while iv needed you so you can be more open minded. My friends hate him and would shoot him themselves if i let them. Also my family have the same thoughts Vet has advised to pts hes not been the easy for the vet. He is nicer to me and calmer just not all the time. And they dont see that he put so much trust in me most of the time.


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## scarymare (26 October 2011)

Naryafluffy said:



			I know from memory that Monty Roberts wouldn't actually give advice on this sort of aggression after giving advice that didn't end happily (not going into detail as the OP doesn't need to worry about what happened to someone else),
		
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Which says it all really doesn't it.  These horses do exist (for what ever reason), I've had one as have some others on this thread.  TBH unless you have had one, I'm not sure you could really appreciate what its like or the level of behaviour which is so dangerous and so unlike anything you've ever seen in a horse which are usually fight or flight animals.  Poor OP.


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## mon (26 October 2011)

You have explored many avenues and horse not having a quality of life, we don't understand everything that happens to it so please pts before  it does more injuries, could be tumour of brain or spine causing pain, don't feel guilty many people wouldn't of tried as long as you have.


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## Tammytoo (26 October 2011)

Bless you, whatever you decide.


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## dunkley (26 October 2011)

traceyann said:



			This will be my last post for a while iv needed you so you can be more open minded. My friends hate him and would shoot him themselves if i let them. Also my family have the same thoughts Vet has advised to pts hes not been the easy for the vet. He is nicer to me and calmer just not all the time. And they dont see that he put so much trust in me most of the time.
		
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Big Hugs to you TA. Thinking of you at this awful time.  If I knew where you were, and it was feasible, I'd go and be with him for you, albeit at a distance, and then come and hold your hand afterwards.


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## Oberon (26 October 2011)

traceyann said:



			This will be my last post for a while iv needed you so you can be more open minded. My friends hate him and would shoot him themselves if i let them. Also my family have the same thoughts Vet has advised to pts hes not been the easy for the vet. He is nicer to me and calmer just not all the time. And they dont see that he put so much trust in me most of the time.
		
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I've followed this post but not commented because I feel it would be inappropriate to give advice when I am not the vet, nor do I know the horse or yourself.

But I just wanted to say I am so sorry you have found yourself backed into this corner. I hope you get all the help and support you need.

I'm sure whatever decision you make will be the right one.


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## ElleSkywalker (26 October 2011)

Big (((((hugs))))) traceyann


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## buddylove (26 October 2011)

Cortez said:



			I very much do not direct this at you, OP, and I am deeply sorry for you and the horse, and apreciate that you have tried your best to help and right a wrong that is not of your doing at all, but this is just another in a long series of disasterous outcomes for Spanish horses in the wrong hands. People see PRE's in Spain and think "Beautiful, fairytale horses: stallions behaving perfectly, always obedient, quiet and at one with the rider. This is my dream horse! I, too can ride the wind", then get their dreamhorse home and discover they cannot handle it. Spanish horses dorequire experienced, often FIRM handling. They are not quiet cobs, they do not generally respond to "loving" handling, or the English "way". I have now rescued 8 Spanish horses from awful situations (won't bore you with the details), all started out with the best of intentions. PLEASE don't buy Spanish horses without thoroughly investigating the breed, it can end badly - usually for the horse, whose only crime was to be beautiful and desirable.
		
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^^^^^This EXACTLY, why why why buy (or rescue) a horse that has got serious issues, or a breed that is uber sensitive which you have no experience of, why do it to yourself?  Horses are supposed to be an enjoyable, fulfilling addition to our lives, not something that scares the **** out of you.  I have a family and I would never put myself in this situation.  I have not read all the pages so I may have missed the outcome, but if not for god's sake put it to sleep, before you have someone else's injuries on your conscience.


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## ISHmad (26 October 2011)

Traceyann you have already said that this horse will die with you whether now or in the future.  And I commend you for that.  There will always be different opinions, that's the beauty of Forums, but none of us are in your shoes and having to deal with this situation on a day to day basis.

I'm not going to make any assumptions about whether this trainer or that trainer could help.  I just wanted to wish you and your horse well whatever the ultimate outcome is.  At least you know he will never be passed from pillar to post whether his time ends now or in the future.  You are protecting him from an uncertain fate and I think that is a very responsible thing to do.


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## Shantara (26 October 2011)

I hate the thought of any animal being PTS for any reason, but it's sometimes for the best. 
We let horses get away with a lot more than dogs. Some dogs are PTS for just a little nip. Horses get away with kicking, biting and breaking bones.

I really feel for you  I couldn't have made such a choice *hugs* I really really hope you're doing ok!


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## joelb (26 October 2011)

Achinghips said:



			What about a sanctuary for him? One experienced in difficult horses?
		
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Oh lordy!  Why would they want to risk the lives of their staff/volunteers when there are enough sound and sane animals in need of their help?  Traceyann good luck with whatever you decide but please dont vanish forever as I for one will be haunted thinking something has happened to you at the hands, well hooves, of your horse.


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## Goldenstar (26 October 2011)

Thinking of you still traceyann


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## Amaranta (26 October 2011)

traceyann said:



			This will be my last post for a while iv needed you so you can be more open minded. My friends hate him and would shoot him themselves if i let them. Also my family have the same thoughts Vet has advised to pts hes not been the easy for the vet. He is nicer to me and calmer just not all the time. And they dont see that he put so much trust in me most of the time.
		
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Thinking of you traceyann, sad as it is, I think you know already what your decision has to be

xx


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## jaye1780 (26 October 2011)

my thoughts are with you traceyann, stay strong and please please keep yourself safe. The heartache will be far greater should something happen to you. Big hugs and I agree its a tough and brave decision to have to make. Make it on what you know not what a bunch of strangers thinks is right xx


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## VLHIEASTON (26 October 2011)

This is so heart breaking, good luck TracyAnn xxx


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## Luci07 (27 October 2011)

And if you are reading this, do not think you actually have to be there at "the end" because if you are really really upset, you will pass that onto your horse. I have held friends horses when they were PTS and that was awful. My own boy I hugged and then my vet told me to go away while he was injected. My tears and upset were not helping my horse at that time and I was distressing him. I know it is upto the individual but in my case, I had completely under estimated the impact my own behaviour would have on my horse. I had also thought I could be strong for my horse but I couldn't. I had had him for over 20 years and I just fell apart when the moment came.


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## traceyann (30 October 2011)

Iv given my little boy one last chance [ I think my family have disowned me or their going to have me sectioned ] Im going down the sugar free diet although i do not think this will help. I just couldnt bring myself to put a such a young horse down. Hes been a bit of a handfull after the vets so hopeing he gonna calm down soon. This is his very last chance my other horses have kicked him out of the herd at the moment in disgrace i think. And my cob watching like a hawk. just waiting for an excuse Im never going to handle this horse without my cob near in the field hopefully he will keep me safe. I want to thank everyone for their help and kindness and every one who pm me their support.


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## Oberon (30 October 2011)

Good luck, hun.

Wear a hat!


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## mulledwhine (30 October 2011)

Fingers crossed


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## fizzer (30 October 2011)

Best of luck. You have to do what you think is right. As my mum always says 

" No one has to walk in your shoes"


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## noblesteed (30 October 2011)

Good luck. I think you are very brave. I really hope changing his diet will help, it really did with mine (he is currently eating Equibites and grass with no rug, and he is still full of beans!) Please, please be really careful when handling him. And remember it is his last chance, if he tries to hurt you again you MUST have him pts.

Lots of hugs () () ()


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## FionaM12 (30 October 2011)

traceyann said:



			Im never going to handle this horse without my cob near in the field hopefully he will keep me safe.
		
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Please be careful. I know you feel your cob saved you last time, but if you get caught between two fighting horses either one of them could accidentally injure you. I don't think you should handle this horse without confident human help around. I'm not implying you're not very capable, I'm sure you are, but it's much safer with two.

I applaud your kindness in wanting to give the horse another chance, but please put your own safety first.


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## honetpot (30 October 2011)

When we are young or not so young we think we indistructable, we are not. I am a nurse and have worked in ITU/ Neuro ITU. My biggest fear is being layed by anything as a even a resonabley small blow to the head can leave you, 'the lights are on but no ones home' Someone I know girl friend was killed by her horse in the field, unfortuately they had to go through seeing her in ITU and then finally seeing her slip away. Then the fallout for this goes on for months and years , what do they do with the horse and who looks after it?
 Please think of your family. I have just have my horse PTS by injection and its not that bad. Over quick and then you and him are safe. No one will ever hurt him and you will know you have tried your best.
 The worst outcome of this could be he injures you and you end up paralyised and then your family have to look after you and have the disposale of him.


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## indie999 (30 October 2011)

I think if you are asking this question sounds like very risky horse. As long as all avenues have been explored etc and its not exactly like this has happened out of the blue..ie a one off. 

Got to say be inclined to PTS. As previous poster says you dont want to end up seriously injured. I was always told to make life easy for myself around horses. Good luck not an easy decision but perhaps a realistic one.


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## traceyann (30 October 2011)

My problem is im gutless i just couldnt do it. I do understand the risk so far iv had many with him but this really last chance saloon for him.


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## Goldenstar (30 October 2011)

oh be careful trecayann what did the vet say about the low sugar diet ? Why don't you post a new thread  with low sugar and aggression in title and see what that brings in from people who have been there and have not been following this thread. Good luck


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## Natch (30 October 2011)

Do let us know how you get on. And please, I don't think it is OTT for you to only handle him with a hat, gloves and body protector on, And with another human with you, and no exceptions. Best of luck, I do hope this helps turn him around, and if not at lest you will know you have tried everything.


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## ladyt25 (31 October 2011)

traceyann, you're very brave but do be careful. I completely understand how you feel and, to be honest if you feel it's not right yet then it probably isn't - trust your instinct. What I would say though is watch how your herd dynamic goes. Ours are a very tight herd and will still treat one of 'theirs' as a stranger again if they've been away for a few days BUT if they segregate him for any longer than would be normal, take note as it may indicate that they feel there is something not right with him.

Ours did it to our old horse when he went very lame at one stage. They were horrid to him and i think it must have been down to their instincts telling them he was not fit and hence would (if they were wild anyway) put the herd at risk from predators. It was not nice, they really pushed him out. But do watch them - they are very good indicators.


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## Cortez (31 October 2011)

traceyann said:



			My problem is im gutless i just couldnt do it. I do understand the risk so far iv had many with him but this really last chance saloon for him.
		
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You are the very opposite of gutless! Thank you for giving this poor horse one last chance; I have the twin of him here at home (rescued Spanish nutcase, 15hh, lovely to ride, not safe on the ground, currently giving me lots of fun - I have him 5 years; only put me in the hosp twice!). We're going to dressage competition at the weekend (he's Cortez; my avatar)


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## templewood (5 November 2011)

traceyann said:



			Iv given my little boy one last chance [ I think my family have disowned me or their going to have me sectioned ] Im going down the sugar free diet although i do not think this will help. I just couldnt bring myself to put a such a young horse down. Hes been a bit of a handfull after the vets so hopeing he gonna calm down soon. This is his very last chance my other horses have kicked him out of the herd at the moment in disgrace i think. And my cob watching like a hawk. just waiting for an excuse Im never going to handle this horse without my cob near in the field hopefully he will keep me safe. I want to thank everyone for their help and kindness and every one who pm me their support.
		
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If you are going down the diet route then don't give him any haylage, alfalfa, anything with sugar or molasses in or barley. Most chops are made with alfalfa, so none of those. My PRE stallions are fed Hay, Fast Fibre (Allen & Page) and Brewers Yeast. They look really well on it. They aren't on lush pasture either and are stabled at night. Make sure that you keep to a strict routine if possible so that he has no excuse to get stresed. Did your vet check for stomach ulcers? I imagine he would have.
As other posters have said be very careful. I hope it is diet related, but it might have started out that way and now become behavioural.
PRE's really don't think quite like other horses and are super intelligent. They respond very well to being praised verbally for good behaviour. Mine all understand 'no' and stop whatever they are doing when I say it, even eating, so it might be worth teaching him that if possible. I wouldn't try the 'pressure until they give in' thing. It makes them rear in my experience. 

Good luck. I hope he improves. I understand how you feel about him. He trusts you and you feel you would be betraying that by having him PTS, but it isn't you that would be betraying him, it's whoever made him like this.


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## traceyann (5 November 2011)

Iv been trying this no sugar diet for a week now havent notice change yet. In fact we had mass explosion yesturday he reared and caught my shoulder. lucky enough nothing broken just a big cut but aleast he only reared once normally its constant until he gets to his stable so maybe things are improving.


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## skint1 (5 November 2011)

I really feel for you, hope it works out for you


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## rockysmum (5 November 2011)

Sorry in advance for this post, I know you have the very best intentions.

BUT you are wrong IMO, very wrong.

This is a dangerous horse which has injured more than one person.  OK if he kills or cripples you its your own choice.  What if he does this to someone else, or another animal.

I doubt if your insurance would cover you for third party risks (if they know) so if someone sues, how will you pay.  If I was to risk assess this horse it would probably have to be kept in an enclosure like at a zoo, not in a field where it could escape or someone could wander in.  I dont think you could escape liability as you are totally aware of what he is capable of.

What if he need emergency vet treatment, would your vets be prepared to deal with him on your own property.  If he was badly injured or in pain he could be a lot worse.

And what happens to him if you cant look after him, for example you end up in hospital, will you expect your family to take the risks.

I'm another for never putting a healthy horse down, but this would have to be an exception.


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## millikins (5 November 2011)

I feel so sorry for you Traceyann but if this animal were a dog, this discussion wouldn't be happening. You would not have to make any heartbreaking decisions because the police would probably do it for you.


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## Oberon (5 November 2011)

In addition to the Fast Fibre and Brewer's Yeast, I would also add magnesium to the diet.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAGNESIUM...r_Equipment&hash=item415c9d1548#ht_1296wt_952

And possibly something for digestion
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/L-GLUTAMI...r_Equipment&hash=item3f0d400ce4#ht_1442wt_905

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/YEA-SACC-...ar_Equipment&hash=item3f0e7dc0f7#ht_924wt_952


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## templewood (5 November 2011)

I wondered if you have tried leading him in a serreta. If he came form Spain he would understand it and respect it as long as nobody has been cruel. Does he have a scarred nose? It does have to be properly fitted and used. I don't know how you got on with James and Emma at Esperanza Dressage, but they would be able to give you lessons in its use. It might be worth booking a lesson with them anyway to give you some tips on handling Spanish horses on the ground and some in hand work, not with your horse perhaps. They are very calm and patient and it might boost your confidence. If you met a few more Spanish horses it would help you to understand how they react to situations. They are frequently taught to rear on command and yours might have been taught this either on purpose or inadvertently. You could possibly be giving him the signal withput realising it.
I have a mare that was used for vaquera work. When I mounted and turned her she half reared and turned on her hocks to face the other way. I thought she was being naughty, but learned later that they are taught to do this and I had asked her without knowing it. 
A Spanish horse will sometimes get itself in a state if it doesn't understand what you want it to do, whereas another horse would probably just not do it!


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## traceyann (5 November 2011)

Yes i have tried serrate and to say he wasnt good is understatement he hates any pressure on his nose or head he has marks on his nose and i think they try to twitch his ears as he has mark on them as well the only thing i can use is a head collar. The rearing i can deal with its the full pelt bolt at me then rearing and boxing i cant this is not a trained rear this is a panic im gonna kill you before you hurt me rear. And im not that fast anymore to be honest i dont think iv ever been that fast.Most would say take a whip and protect yourself but i do believe i would get hurt before i even raised it. Hes still a bit hyper after the vets so im trying to give him time to settle. The other day was my fault i got hurt i sneezed and you cant with him.


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## brown tack (5 November 2011)

God I really do worry about you with him, he reared because you sneezed and again hurt you.

What will happen if you cough I wonder?


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## FionaM12 (5 November 2011)

You "can't" sneeze?  Aren't there times when you can't avoid sneezing?


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## Spring Feather (5 November 2011)

I have never owned an Iberian horse but I know they are somewhat different from many other horses possibly in part due to the way they are managed as youngsters in Spain/Portugal.  It sounds like there are many knowledgable Iberian horse owners on this thread who sound like they are giving out very good advice.  It's a shame none of them are near OP as it is starting to sound more like a handling issue to me.  Are any of the Iberian owners on this thread close enough to go and lend a hand?


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## FionaM12 (5 November 2011)

traceyann said:



			its the full pelt bolt at me then rearing and boxing 

this is a panic im gonna kill you before you hurt me rear.

And im not that fast anymore to be honest i dont think iv ever been that fast.

Most would say take a whip and protect yourself but i do believe i would get hurt before i even raised it. 

The other day was my fault i got hurt i sneezed and you cant with him.
		
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All the above statements seriously worry me. You don't want to pass him onto anyone else (which I do understand), but you clearly feel very unsafe yourself, from the above. 

This sounds like a very severely damaged, frightened horse. It might be a kindness to both of you to take the pts option after all, or at least bring in someone who's confident at handling him, as Springfeather suggests.


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## Dancing Queen (5 November 2011)

You obviously love your horse deeply.
I admire your determination to help him out.

I really do hope that you can get someone to get to the root of his problems and hopefully put him on the road to 'recovery'

This is not going to be sorted overnight, but i wish you both the very best of luck. xxx


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## rhino (5 November 2011)

OP; it's quite easy to lose focus of the 'bigger picture' when you are putting everything you have into sorting out a specific 'problem'.

Can you take a step back, re-read what you have written. Pretend that it was written by a friend of yours, one you care a lot about. What would you do to advise your 'friend' in the situation? Would you want him/her to continue knowing full well they could end up seriously injured?

My 'bloody-mindedness' is wont to get me into trouble at times. Mostly when I'm too close to the problem.

Stay safe


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## Leg_end (5 November 2011)

I'm sorry but OP, this horse is clearly dangerous and needs to be PTS before he kills someone. How would you feel if someone came into your field and he attacked them?


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## Marydoll (5 November 2011)

Herts05 said:



			Go with your instincts. Yes, PRE's are different (I have had one for 3 years) and yes a good Iberian trainer who has worked for a decent time in Spain/Portugal is a good way to go to get guidance but it sounds like it might be too late. Late cut geldings will always retain a level of stallion behaviour and must always be treated as such. The reason that they are so well behaved in Spain/Portugal is that they are not allowed to get away with anything!

However, Richard Maxwell has experience of Iberians, he took on a problematic Luso stallion with good success. You may want to give him a call.

If at the end of the day PTS is the way to go, then well done for being tough enough to make this decision.
		
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Deffo try Max, he has worked well with spanish horses ibefore


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## TallulahBright (5 November 2011)

I really feel for you but think that maybe your heart's ruling your head. I can't imagine what you must be going through but I know that being around my horse keeps me sane and staves off work related stress- if she were to behave like this and scare me so much, I don't think I could deal with it at all. An earlier poster said it all for me- if this were a dog you wouldn't give it a second thought. Take care x


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## traceyann (5 November 2011)

Sadly he has a mass fear of sneezing or anything that rattles like a zip keys in pocket even a crisp packet dont know why. He is getting better at this But the sneeze caught me unaware and was loud and it scared him. I read this im making excuse after excuse for him im so stupid and people our right if he was a friends horse i would tell her to put him to sleep.


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## brown tack (5 November 2011)

traceyann said:



			Sadly he has a mass fear of sneezing or anything that rattles like a zip keys in pocket even a crisp packet dont know why. He is getting better at this But the sneeze caught me unaware and was loud and it scared him. I read this im making excuse after excuse for him im so stupid and people our right if he was a friends horse i would tell her to put him to sleep.
		
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So what are you going to do?


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## JingleTingle (5 November 2011)

This is such a sad thread - and I am so worried about you traceyann - keep logging on to see if you have made any final decisions. It is not my place or anybody else's for that matter to tell you what to do with your own horse. But for once I am going to ignore my usual golden rule, this horse needs PTS for his own sake let alone to keep you and anybody who comes into contact with him safe too. 

He is too badly damaged, probably through no fault of his own, not all abused horses can be re-habed - if he has ever been abused and isnt just a plain bad 'un? To say no horse is born bad is not a statement I agree with, maybe your poor boy is? Whatever the reason the risk level is far too high IMO.


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## Ladyinred (5 November 2011)

My advice comes from a different perspective, and one that might help you to think this through.

If you were your horse, would you want to live with the constant terrors he seems to have? Is this life fair on him.. let alone the danger aspect to you. If anything happens that he really hurts you and you are unable to control the decisions, what will become of him? You have absolutely no guarantee that anyone will follow your wishes as if you are hurt then th people closest to you will have every excuse to really hate him.

If he was just a scared horse who couldn't cope with everyday life then maybe he could be turned out and nothing more asked of him. But this is a different scenario, his breed dictates that realistically you can't leave him in a field, and even if you did then there are still times when he would have to be handled, ie farrier and vet.

Something in his past has caused him a major trauma that makes him act dangerously. Note I don't say aggresively.. for I don't believe this is directed at you'' all his actions are born of pure panic.

Look at things from this view and ask yourself, if you were in his shoes would you prefer to go quietly to sleep and be at peace or would you prefer to live with your fears eating away at you daily?


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## crabbymare (5 November 2011)

traceyann said:



			Sadly he has a mass fear of sneezing or anything that rattles like a zip keys in pocket even a crisp packet dont know why. He is getting better at this But the sneeze caught me unaware and was loud and it scared him. I read this im making excuse after excuse for him im so stupid and people our right if he was a friends horse i would tell her to put him to sleep.
		
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You are far from stupid so don't think that  
Its a horrible place to be in when you try so hard with horses and especially when you obviously think so much of him as you do. Would be so much easier if you could trace his history back and find out where it all went wrong as it would help you know in your mind that there is nothing you can do. I am far from a pts for any reason person and have dealt with a horse that was dangerous before but yours sounds so frightened and unhappy in his head if he cannot even handle you sneezing after all you have done with him. 
PLEASE don't get yourself hurt, if he keeps behaving like this much longer it is going to happen and I would hate to think of what would happen if you were to be in a position where you had been hurt and he got loose.


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## Fools Motto (5 November 2011)

Ladyinred said:



			My advice comes from a different perspective, and one that might help you to think this through.

If you were your horse, would you want to live with the constant terrors he seems to have? Is this life fair on him.. let alone the danger aspect to you. If anything happens that he really hurts you and you are unable to control the decisions, what will become of him? You have absolutely no guarantee that anyone will follow your wishes as if you are hurt then th people closest to you will have every excuse to really hate him.

If he was just a scared horse who couldn't cope with everyday life then maybe he could be turned out and nothing more asked of him. But this is a different scenario, his breed dictates that realistically you can't leave him in a field, and even if you did then there are still times when he would have to be handled, ie farrier and vet.

Something in his past has caused him a major trauma that makes him act dangerously. Note I don't say aggresively.. for I don't believe this is directed at you'' all his actions are born of pure panic.

Look at things from this view and ask yourself, if you were in his shoes would you prefer to go quietly to sleep and be at peace or would you prefer to live with your fears eating away at you daily?
		
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Very good point. 
I. along with others on this thread consider the horse to be suffering, and as a horse owner we all know what we'd do when our cherished equines suffer. 
He doesn't want to live anymore by the stories you have told. I do feel for you though, technically a healthy horse in body, sadly not a healthy horse in mind.
Make the call, be brave, we are all with you. x


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## Queenbee (5 November 2011)

OP, I have read every post on this thread, and I really do feel for you and your horse who is obviously very damaged, no one has to tell you what you have written, and I think you know what your decision will be finally, I know its hard and if he is PTS you will be heart broken but from what I am reading you will probably feel a great deal of relief for him and for you, he will never have to deal with the extreme emotions, triggers and fears that are causing such blind panic and anger again.  You have done so much and tried so much, when you do make the decision to PTS which I think you will, have no regrets hun, you have given more chances than most x


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## templewood (13 November 2011)

traceyann said:



			Yes i have tried serrate and to say he wasnt good is understatement he hates any pressure on his nose or head he has marks on his nose and i think they try to twitch his ears as he has mark on them as well the only thing i can use is a head collar. The rearing i can deal with its the full pelt bolt at me then rearing and boxing i cant this is not a trained rear this is a panic im gonna kill you before you hurt me rear. And im not that fast anymore to be honest i dont think iv ever been that fast.Most would say take a whip and protect yourself but i do believe i would get hurt before i even raised it. Hes still a bit hyper after the vets so im trying to give him time to settle. The other day was my fault i got hurt i sneezed and you cant with him.
		
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I have experienced the pelting towards you and stopping and rearing many times with colts. Sometimes with spinning and kicking out too. They apparently think it's fun! I haven't met your horse so don't know if it's the same, but I shout, growl and wave the leadrope at them before they get anywhere near me. You have to make yourself look as large as possible. They need to learn that it isn't acceptable behaviour. Obviously yours has never been taught not to do it, or has found that he frightens people and gets the upper hand.

I don't think this is a problem that you can sought out, as he knows that you are frightened of him and I think it would be dangerous. You need someone who is experienced with Iberians. Watch some of the Hemfling videos on Youtube and you will see that there are people who can help. I seem to remember that Jenny Rolfe helped someone with an aggressive stallion, so it might be worth contacting her. He would probably soon be a completely different horse with experienced handling, but I am afraid that he will hurt you the way things are going.


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