# Advice PLS - horse reared n fell over backwards on me...



## Hollyhorse (28 October 2008)

Right well as the title says my horse reared up n came over backwards on me today. I've only had him about 6 weeks now and bought him from a sale in Ireland. He's 5 years old, 16.2 irish sport horse gelding who has successfully competed at pre-novice level in ireland with some top placings. Everyone was fab (jump etc) apart from his trot where he would throw his head up in the air n halt if you tried to have a contact n encourage him onto the bit. I got the feeling that he would consider rearing so I backed off n did lots of lunging in the pessoa n some gentle schooling n he now goes beautifully in all paces 
	
	
		
		
	


	





He's quite highly-strung and went to a fun ride on sunday where we went very steadily n just jumped a few jumps. He was fab but today was clearly finding it a bit hard to come back down to earth and school. He was going really well but was a little more resistant on the left rein, occasionally sticking his head up like he used to. My approach when he does this is to do what my instructor told me to do - make his life uncomfortable when he sticks his head up n then soften as soon as he softens. This seems to help n he was going really well n then suddenly stuck his head up in the trot n halted then straight away when up vertically n came over backwards. He moved away very quickly n was up on his feet again looking fine - not at all alarmed n gave the impression of having done it a few times before (maybe the reason he was at the auction?) n i got back on again n schooled him another 10 minutes n he was fantastic so finished. 

It sounds stupid but it didnt make me nervous, I didnt have any prob getting straight back on - I've had many talented but naughty horses that have thrown themselves about, it doesnt really bother me as (i'll regret saying this!) i rarely fall off or even lose a stirrup. Going over backwards on me does bother me more tho in the respect that I've heard of people being paralysed when this has happened n I dont really want that to happen! 

He seems to be more likely to rear when he sticks his head up. Has anyone got any advice on what I could do? My other eventer used to rear vertically all the time but i literally had to beat him out of it n now he rarely rears n if he does they're tiny, but he never went over backwards! His teeth, saddle, back etc etc have all been checked. Any advice?!


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## Skhosu (28 October 2008)

Any idea what his name was when you bought him?


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## hellspells (28 October 2008)

My friends daughter has a pony that has done this a couple of times.  He is the same and had all the checks and everything appears ok.  He generally does it when he is being a little sod - I passionatly dislike this pony, but equally feel very sorry for him.  I have been the unfortunate one to get on it when is messing around - he will pull out all the stops and then suddenly once he realises that he can't do it with me - and the only way I have been able to get this message across is with use of a short jumping whip.  Which I don't like doing but it works and makes him safe for the child for a little bit (she lets him get away with murder so he takes the mick).  

It also happened to my friend with her youngster and she did end up temporailly (thank God) paralysied in ICU - although the saddle fitted, she got a new one as soon as she came out of hosp and the pony never did it again.

Good luck with him hun - and stay safe!


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## Lippyx (28 October 2008)

NASTY!!!
I had a horse that randomly reared when I was standing talking to someone, and he went over, but he NEVER done it again!
As for your one, sounds like he's done it before. Have you tried a different bit? Maybe he doesn't like the one he's got, too servere or clangs on his mouth?
How old is he? Geldings get "wolf" teeth at a certain age, are his coming through and evaiding the bit??

Lippy x


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## BBH (28 October 2008)

That is a behaviour he must not allowed to continue, IMO a horse actually going over has no care for itself or its rider.

As he is only five I would say it was down to annoyance at having to work hard and a lack of confidence in what he was being asked to do. As he is so young I personally would concentrate on him having fun and as he gets more balance and experience this rearing should stop..
Good luck, its just aswell your brave but keep safe.


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## OWLIE185 (28 October 2008)

Brave as you clearly are all you need is one bad accident and that is the end of your riding career.

I would get rid of him before you get seriously injured.


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## meardsall_millie (28 October 2008)

Assuming you've had everything checked, I think he's probably being a little bugger and trying to evade the contact/work.  

It's up to you whether to persevere or get rid really - but I think I'd persevere myself.  Try turning him in very small tight circles as soon as you think he's going to go up - he can't stand on 2 legs if you're making him spin round!


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## KatB (28 October 2008)

Sorry, ive said this before on this forum, a horse that goes over backwards has no self preservation, and tbh that is the only thing that is keeping us alive on these animals in many cases!!! If he is quite happy doing it, I would get rid. I had a rearer which I sorted out, but if he had gone over backwards repeatedly, he would have been gone 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Hows your grey boy doing?


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## evenag114 (28 October 2008)

I have one the same...Tried to do it to my a couple of weeks ago in a dressage test, mind you he's not so young!  I've had him 2 years and it has deffinately improved, one fracture later mind, but again he tends to have a high head carriage before doing it.  His initial problem was down to a blind wolf tooth we think, as dealer had no idea and had not bothered to look for reasons (got him cheap), now its a semi learn't thing, when I try to dictate what I want us to do he gets a bit stroppy.  I have found that I can aviod an argument as I now know when its likely, he's very talented so well worth my effort.

Agree with circle idea, also does he tend to prefer to do it one particular rein?  Mine does and so i can stick him on the other if i think he's being a prat.  Also what bit do you use, my boy has the mildest as he is very sensitive, does he pick things up quickly? I have been told that it could be because my boy is very smart, learns new moves after just one go and subsequently uses them against you when he doesn't want to do something else!

If he's worth it stick with him but be prepared, you are risking hurting yourself.

evenag114


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## SuperHorse (28 October 2008)

If he has decent results there's definitely a reason why he was taken to the sales instead of sold privately - and I guess you've discovered the reason!  I'd get everything checked, maybe take it easy with him for a while or stick him out at grass for a month or two to chill out....


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## meardsall_millie (28 October 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, ive said this before on this forum, a horse that goes over backwards has no self preservation, and tbh that is the only thing that is keeping us alive on these animals in many cases!!! If he is quite happy doing it, I would get rid. I had a rearer which I sorted out, but if he had gone over backwards repeatedly, he would have been gone 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

If he does it repeatedly then I would agree with you but so far he's done it once.  Although he didn't seem to be bothered when he got up that doesn't mean he's done it before and doesn't mean he's got no self preservation!  I'd still stick with him and see how he goes.


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## air78 (28 October 2008)

I would get a second opinion on his back and saddle fit for a start off; even good people get it wrong sometimes, or have a diffrent focus to another practitioner  
	
	
		
		
	


	





One of mine went over backwards in hand once; he has never done it again, or showed any sign of repeating the behaviour. If this was his first time, then he may have scared himself enough to never do it again....... I guess you have no way of knowing though, so it's a bit of a suck it and see situation


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## summertoots (28 October 2008)

I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I have a friend who was bold and brave and so very talented on a horse, three years ago a horse went over with her and she is now paralized from the waste down. She will never walk again...is any horse worth that?


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## woolly (28 October 2008)

KatB is spot on the money. I advise you to get expert help or proceed with extreme caution. If you do decide to sell,  declare this and potentially declare the horse unrideable. A horse that goes over backwards does indeed have no self preservation. I speak from bitter experience as our beloved loan mare who went brilliantly and never put a foot wrong was ridden by her owner (in my opinion and from reports as I wasn't there at the time) brutally, and the poor mare was yanked harshly and went over backwards. She put the owner in hospital for 6 weeks with a crushed pelvis. Very lucky as 743KG landing on you isn't funny. The mare was sold on for meat money after being worth potentially a lot of money. She changed hands 6 timnes in 6 years and was sold to her last owner drugged. She has nothing physically wrong but massive psychological problems and literally shakes when she sees a saddle. We were not told who she was sold to and tracked her after 6 years and a lot of time and effort. The mare would probably do it again if she passed into the wrong hands. A very very dangerous situation. The very best of luck.


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## Hollymav (28 October 2008)

I ended up with a fractured pelvis and cracked spine after a horse did this to me! There was no reason for him to do it and he "luckily" never did it after that although I never rode him again.

Nearly 2 months in a hospital bed gave me plenty of time to think about what had happened and in my opinion no horse is worth going through that again. 

The consultant told me I was very lucky not to end up more seriously injured or even paralysed. Horseriding is a risky enough sport without having a horse that seems to find that behaviour "acceptable".


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## madhector (28 October 2008)

Mine did this to me last year, went straight up and over onto me. This is the post from then if it is any help at all, loads of advice...

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/sh...&amp;PHPSESSID=

He has never done it since, and is now quite civilised


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## TarrSteps (28 October 2008)

I differentiate between "rearers" and "flippers" - they don't generally feel the same to ride and while there is no one cause for either problem, they don't generally have similar causes.

It's all very well to say the "why" in immaterial and to some extent it is because the behaviour cannot be allowed to continue, but it's very hard to craft a solution to a problem you don't fully understand.  I have to say I've never met a horse that didn't have a reason for what it was doing BUT that doesn't mean every reason had a viable solution or that it meant every horse could be "cured" enough to be safe.  Even seemingly simple triggers like "pain" often required a multi-layered approach to be truly solved.

It is also quite possible for both behaviours to happen as a "one off" out of a particular circumstance (shock, pain, fear, loss of balance, miscalculation) and simply never be triggered again.  Usually it does display a tendency in the horse, even if it never goes that far again, but even that's not a given.  More common are horses that have the collection of tendencies and problems to display the behaviour but circumstances/management/training determines whether or not it becomes a problem.

To which I'm going to add the very unhelpful opinion that you simply cannot tell about such problems from the internet and giving advice on a horse one has not seen/sat on is a dangerous game.  The process that might cure one horse could get you killed on another.  And don't kid yourself, if a horse falls on you you have a pretty good chance of not getting up again.  It's all very well not to be scared but that doesn't make in any less dangerous. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I've ridden half a dozen or so "flippers" (one turned over on me in a line of jumps at a clinic with a top level sj trainer. . . the horse did get sorted to jump at lower heights but the reasons he started the behaviour did preclude him fulfilling his potential) and I would also urge real caution and expert assessment even if you don't want "help".  One of mine started it after being electrocuted, one turned out to have a serious neck injury, one came from a family line that did it, one had, in effect, been taught the behaviour, one, we're fairly sure, had a few screws loose - all were being ridden at least semi-successfully and in a couple of cases they had competitive success in the past.  Some went on to never had a problem, some went on but required careful management, some were eventually overcome by whatever problem triggered the behaviour.  Impossible to generalise.

A good person with experience in dealing with problem horses should be able to get a good grasp of the situation even if the horse doesn't show the behaviour with them.  It's all about patterns and clues - a good professional will be able to give you more information and help you decide how to continue safely.


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## Divasmum (28 October 2008)

Many years ago my friend was killed when a horse reared and came over backwards on a road. Personally your post made me shudder. Please get professional help with this horse before something dreadful happens.


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## Flame_ (28 October 2008)

Probably no help at all, but clutching at straws, have you tried riding him in a VERY gentle bit like a straight bar Happy Mouth or rubber bit. If his issues are all rooted in the acceptance of contact (and of course they probably are more complex than that!), it could just correct the problem if you are lucky. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Hope you sort it, and be careful.


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## 7888 (28 October 2008)

Get rid, he has clearly been shoved from Ireland to you, put him in a market if you value your life. Just don't mess with a severly effed up horse. Remenber they always think they can shove rubbish into  the UK market. There is a market which is one of many in Zuidlaren in Holland where farmers get rid of the mad ones and they all end up here. Please get rid.


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## BlackDiamond (28 October 2008)

My old pony did this to my mum, through accident not intention, but she sat on my mother's head, pushing it down into her chest.

It broke her collar bone and she was bruised all over.  She has never been near a horse since.

She and we are all lucky she isn't dead.  Please please be careful, we dont want to read a post from you saying your injured - or worse.


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## wishfulthinking (28 October 2008)

If you'd like to PM me with the necessary horse details I may be able to get the background info for you.


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## Keltic (28 October 2008)

My friends horse did this on bridge it reared and started to go over but instead of landing on the road they fell over the side off the bridge with about a 10ft drop, she ended up in hospital for a long time and in a wheelchair for about a year...


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## ladyt25 (28 October 2008)

It could be he's never done it before (even though it appeared he had) I can't understand why any horse would want to throw itself over backwards  so i would assume it either has  a ophysical or mental reason to do it.

My sister had a horse that originally had come from ireland and had hunted (alot) as a 3 year old. I think personally he did too much far too long and it sounds like your horse is similar. To be competing in pre novices at 5 years old is, in my opinion quite a lot for a young horse brain to cope with (other may disagree) but I think some horses just cannot cope. I would suggest maybe giving him a break from riding and concentrate on groundwork/lungeing etc and by all means get some one in to check his back/saddle/teeth etc.

My sisters horse did this to me (although fortunately was that good at rearing he didn't come over on me) but I smacked down on the floor on my pelvis and as i tried to get up realised I couldn't feel my legs. Fortunately the loss of feeling was only temporary but it gave me an idea of what it could have been! I too got straight back on him as I thought I couldn't have him 'win'! Looking back i'm not sure it was worth it (although he behaved ok after but i didn't compete then that day as I was in a lot of pain). I think I value my life more than putting up with a dangerous horse. I think rearing os a very difficult vice to cure.

As a preventative I would try a standing martingale to stop him being able to get his head that bit higher to rear. If you establish when he's likely to rear I have also be told an old 'trick' of tying the tail to their girth. They need their tails to balance a rear so doing this is supposed to stop them. I did advise a friend to do this who had a rearer and it stopped it pretty quickly!

All horses are different though and what works for one may not work for another.


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## JM07 (28 October 2008)

i was in hospital for 9 months due to some "random" rear.....

i was nearly severely disabled, took me 8 months to walk again after i was put back together.

i would literally get shot if any horse that did this was owned by me....


rearing is a nasty vice.


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## Merlotmonster (28 October 2008)

My lovely event mare did this to me after riding her again after an 18 month lay off due to injury. She basically threw a strop everytime I got on her. She would rear and one day she threw herself on top of me. I never rode her again and gave her away to be a surrogate mum at a stud. Its just not worth the risk. Death is rather final.


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## natalia (28 October 2008)

Difficul;t one, I have dealt with several really bad rearers including one which you could describe as a "flipper" the flipper I'm afraid after had had done it several times, injured not only myself but also broke my friends leg in 4 places unfortuantly ended up in a tin as we were not going to risk anyone elses lives and the horse had had enough second chances. If they do go over by habit then I'm afraid there's very little you can do as once they start to go up its difficult to get them out of it. The horse we had would do it almost at random, he would be fine one minute then go to nap and throw himself up and over with very little warning. MOst rearers give you a subtle sign they are about to go up but not this one. I wouldn't wish this upon anybody, obviously after having all physical checks and tack checks done we made our choice with him. Obviously he may have gone over as a one off ie slipped, in which case its just breaking the rearing habit that you have to contend with. The only other horse I had that actually went over with me twice is now a very sucessful low level BSJA pony, I actually got given him as he was deemed unrideable, but actually it turned out that he had the worst teeth I have ever seen, so any pressure would make him go bolt upright. After £400 worth of dental work he was rideable, but did go up and over with me twice durning his rehab as he still had remembered pain, given 6 months he was fine and rode very well but you would never put anyone heavy handed on him. My last rearer was a hackney stallion who would go right up and strike out as he did so, pure nappy behaviour that looked rather spectacular but he was very balanced! We sorted him by longlining him forwards for 3 weeks and then continuing ridden work but with someone behind like he was on long lines and by ridden work in blinkers. 
If A horse is going forwards then it physically can't rear, so concentrate on keeping him forwards, like a horse also can't rear if spun tightly on the spot so by keeping your hand low (ins ome cases riding with your hands locked by your knees) your horse won't be able to go up. I would say if you feel his head go up then lock one side of him with your hand so he can't actually go up. I would deff get some proff help with this, esp if he goes up and over again. If its stress related then deff take him out to have some fun, for a 5yr old he has done rather  alot so this may be part of the cause. I would imagine that as he was at the sales there is some sort of history of this behaviour, as good irish horses with a good record would be a rare find without some sort of quirk esp. for sensible money.
Its your choice if you continue to ride this horse but personally I wouldn't, as I wouldn't want to put those out who would have to care for me should I end up in wheelchair.


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## Ziggy_ (28 October 2008)

I don't know what to say about this one. I know of one horse who made a habit of going over backwards - he killed one rider and left another in a wheelchair.

That said, my mare once went bolt upright with me and staggered backwards - the only reason she didn't go over was that her butt hit the fence and she got her balance back. That was totally out of character, she did it that once and has never reared, bucked or anything since.

It could be a total one off or it could be a habit and until you've worked out which I can't say what you should do. Just be aware that if there's a next time you could well end up dead or in a wheelchair and please be careful. Just for clarity - did he rear and lose his balance and fall, or did he purposely flip straight over?


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## flyingfeet (28 October 2008)

You need to decide what happened - did he rear up and loose balance, or did he flip?

As others I've been given various horses that reared and near enough all youngsters will ask the question of you one day. 

However we only ever had one flipper, who did not stop, no hesitation and was a true back flip. Unfortunately this landed on my sister and put her in a wheelchair for 6 weeks and she still has wasted muscle nearly 15 years later. This one went in a can, but to be fair it did other mad non-self preserving things, and we are pretty sure it had a brain problem. 

So if it did not hesitate, then don't bother. However if it flopped over to the side due to ill balance, then it was probably testing you and the fall may have had an impact on its future behaviour. 

I don't think you can judge a horses shock reaction from the way they pick themselves up, so this would not be a good indicator of whether it has done this before.


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## Lill (28 October 2008)

I'm inclined to agree with those who are saying get rid of him.

One of the dealers i rode a few years back did this to me, i got on it on the yard, a friend was holding it and it just went straight up and over, landing on me on the tarmac.

How i escaped with just bruises i'll never know but its not an experience i'd ever wish to go through again no matter how talented the horse was!  

Horse in question went straight back to market a few days later.


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## KatB (28 October 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Sorry, ive said this before on this forum, a horse that goes over backwards has no self preservation, and tbh that is the only thing that is keeping us alive on these animals in many cases!!! If he is quite happy doing it, I would get rid. I had a rearer which I sorted out, but if he had gone over backwards repeatedly, he would have been gone  

 If he does it repeatedly then I would agree with you but so far he's done it once. Although he didn't seem to be bothered when he got up that doesn't mean he's done it before and doesn't mean he's got no self preservation! I'd still stick with him and see how he goes 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Yes I agree with you m_m, sorry I obviously didnt make myself clear. By the way the OP was posting, it sounded like he had done it before. Sometimes going over once can "cure" it and stop it doing it again. But by the sounds of things this horse knew what it was doing. IF however it was due to a loss of balance, misjudgement, then yes it maybe a breakable habit and worth persevering. However, horses dont normally go from no rear to flipping over straight out in my experience unless it is a lack of balance etc....... I knew one which decided rearing was a good trick to play, did it and meant it, and then did it and the person handling it pulled it over backwards (on a surface on teh lunge, so no damage done to it or handler) it never tried it again.....that sort of horse is worth persevering with.....if you want to take the risk that it ISNT a learnt behaviour and it wont do it again....


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## Amymay (29 October 2008)

Teath and back checked?????  I know it's pretty obvious - but it's the first thing I'd look at, and also the fit of the saddle.  

I wonder why he is reluctant to go forward in trot?  Was he 5 stage vetted?


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## Hollyhorse (29 October 2008)

Wow I'm not sure what to think now. Thanks for all your comments! Just to clarify a few points n answer a few questions:

1) he's ridden in a french link hanging snaffle (may try a straight bar happy mouth as has been suggested but he's actually quite strong)
2) he's very clever, quite amazingly how quickly he picks things up, and is quite sharp
3) he's really talented and could upgrade to novice then intermediate eventing really quickly due to his bold careful jump and being a bit of a XC machine, so I would consider him worth sticking with - WITHIN REASON

Whether he reared, lost balance and fell over or purposefully flipped over - it's hard to say really. I've had him about 6 weeks and he has NOT reared with me before. He once stopped abruptly when I was clearly using too much hand in the early days and it occured to me that he might consider rearing but his feet did NOT leave the ground n we continued n I've used much lighter hands and less pressure every since. Yesterday he stuck his head up in trot twice, halted and did two little rears - 45 degree angle I would guess - but then went forward. The third time he stuck his head up in trot, stopped n then it felt like he went straight up n over backwards - it happened very 'fluidly', i didnt feel he was stumbling about on his hind legs n then fell backwards...however i've been researching and apparently 99% of horses that fall over backwards are pulled back by the rider so it could easily be that i was taken so much by surprise that my body fell back n the weight pulled him back. 

If he'd done this many times then I would probably get rid straight away but this was the first time - in my schooling session in the pouring rain, the first time ridden after a XC fun ride. So i think I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, assume that his mind was a bit all over the place - he's only ever thrown his head up when I've been schooling him and I associate this behaviour with him being about to rear, and he's not even done that very often so could well be because he's sharp and I was putting too much pressure on him... he does give me warning in the respect he throws his head up n halts so if i quickly spin him in circles n make him go forwards when he does this then that might be enough to avoid the rear in the first place. To be honest I'm not sure what else I can do - i dont want to jump the gun and get rid of him when he's only done it once n it could have been me pulling him over n he may never do it again if i'm smarter, but then i dont want to risk my life for a horse, even if he could jump the moon. Watch this space. Thanks for ALL your advice, much appreciated


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