# Cytek shoes



## nat_a_528 (18 August 2010)

HI guys

Just had cyteks put on my Tb mare, 

Since having it done I have heard awful things about them !!
Should i remove them 

Has anyone had any experiences with them , good or bad??

Please let me know as I am really worrying[/B]


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## Crazydancer (18 August 2010)

What awful things have you heard? I had them a few years ago, and had lots of comments asking why I'd had them, and everyone thought they were a bit odd.... but nothing really negative. My farrier switched to doing only cytek shoes, and as he'd corrected some damage done by a previous farrier, and had always been so good, I went with it. They were fine. I moved area, and current farrier now uses normal shoes without a toe clip, which seems to do the job just as well to be honest.


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## nat_a_528 (18 August 2010)

Just that horses become seriously unsound and that they are cruel , so now i feel awful !!


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## tommy30 (18 August 2010)

Cytek are IMO bordering on cruelty. They are cast iron shoes, that cannot be shaped to fit the foot. Instead the foot is dressed back to fit the shoe. 

The theory behind them is that all pedal bones are the same shape, therefore all hooves are the same shape, and if the hoof doesnt fit the shoe (which is supposed to be the 'correct' shape), it is because the hoof has an imbalance, and needs to be forced into the cytek shape.


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## RW1 (20 August 2010)

I tried Cytek shoes for a mare of mine that had been diagnosed with navicular and had been operated on and had failed to return becaome sound. I had them put on after exhuasting other alternatives such as natural balance and my farrier had followed vet schools instructions re shoeing to the letter for at least a year. It was very sad as when the other horses had a loon she would bob along round the field. After having the cyteks on she was sound within a week her action was far less stuffy after being lame for the best part of 2 years. Whilst she was sound I was able to do occasional light hacks just walking on nice days -something which she seemed to enjoy as she had basicly gone from competing to a lawmower prior to this. However after about a year even these shoes didnt work for her and she went lame again and I was advised to call it a day but I do think for her the cyteks helped her be more comfortable for a while. She owed me nothing. The way her feet were trimmed was only just slightly different to how the vet school wanted it in actual fact they wanted her toe cut back.


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## mrussell (20 August 2010)

Tell that to my horse !!

Hes been in cyteks for 7 years since being diagnosed with Caudal heel pain and having exhausted all other type of rim shoes with the country's leading farriers all having a go.

My horse was sound as soon as the shoes went on.  My vet was so negative that he did a free set of xrays to prove that the shoe wasnt correcting the reverse tilt of the pedal bone.. and had to eat his words when he was proved wrong.

My horse broke his leg last summer and thank god he was in Cyteks as he stood in those shoes for 12 weeks without a problem.  (He is normally shod every 5 weeks without fail ).  The fact that the shoe loads the sole was paramount in his support whilst standing x-tied for 6 weeks.

So, cruel ? Certainly not !


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## Marchtime (26 May 2011)

Personally I view Cytek shoes as a remedial option to be used when a problem exists, rather than an every day shoe. My TB had them for a year when we'd exhausted other options. He was struggling to keep shoes on, needed silicone gel pads (which in turn were causing his shoes to come off), and was on/off lame. He had been diagnosed with collateral ligament damage. After talks with my farrier and vet we tried Cyteks. They worked for us a short term option whilst his feet recovered. They offered more protection for his sole and allowed us to go longer between shoeings hence allowing more hoof growth. I think done by the right farrier in the right circumstances they are a very useful tool.


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## LucyPriory (26 May 2011)

The most negative things I've hear about Cytek come from an ex Cytek farrier.   Not keen on the idea of making the foot fit the shoe rather than the other way around, but I do see a lot of it - not just with Cytek - but the effects may be more extreme with Cytek because of their shape.


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## LucyPriory (26 May 2011)

I've also experienced the excessive heel trimming practice - by a farrier.  My rock crunchingly sound horse was lamed for ages, although she grew foot really fast which helped.  I dread to think how long she would have been lame if she hadn't down so much quality foot at the rate she did.


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## Crazy Friesian (26 May 2011)

My horse was crippled by the main man himself... The LAST time he saw him he didn't even watch my horse walk back to the stable.

He SHUFFLED back to the stable - it was heart wrenching to see. 

I struggled to get any of the farriers on the yard to touch him. The main thing they were citing was the possibility of stress hairline fractures in the pasterns.

I eventually bit the bullet and made the decision for him to be barefoot...


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## Sambo (28 May 2011)

I am shocked... I cannot speak highly enough of cytek. Or of "bill the butcher" LOL

Cytek not only prevents dieseases of the hoof but also cures them. I have had horses shod with cytek, by bill, who have had problems sorted out. I had an WB who over reached, brushed and was pigeon toed. Cytek cured all of these in a very short space of time. The same horse also hit a stone when on a hack cantering ( so hard it dented the shoe) and if he had not have had  these on he would have punctured his sole, but luckily he came back from that hack sound. 

I have a welsh d who had white line disease barefoot and as soon as the shoe was put on his cracks stopped and so did the chipping. He is a lot happier in himself and is much more relaxed but under saddle and in hand. 

I also have a mare shod with cytek, she was shod all round with traditional before bill got her, she had no visable problems with these shoes on, but being a big cytek believer i converted her. The change was amazing. We call them "go faster shoes" as the horses move do much more freely. She could now jump like never before and actually look like she enjoyed it. She did her first clear round in a long time! And her shoes lasted now, she used to be terrible and holding onto her shoes.

As for comments like minnie i think they reflect uneducated or miseducated people, and ultimately its the horses i feel sorry for. I would strongly recommend you call bill or e mail for a chat, i know he cares a lot for the welfare of all horses and would be more than happy to explain the cytek method.

Or perhaps attend a semimar or leg disection so you can see first hand the dangers of rim shoeing and traditional trimming..

Please  pm me if u want more details xx


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## hobit (28 May 2011)

I totally agree with Sambo's comments. I can't recommend Bill and cytek's highly enough.

I have 2 out of my 3 horses currently shod in cytek and my third is booked in the be cytek shod on the fronts and cytek trimmed on the hinds.

The difference in my two that are currently shod cytek from traditional shoeing is unreal. My 16.2hh TB who had typical tb feet that would hardly hold a shoe for 4 weeks, suffered bruised soles, brushed and had a short stride is now holding shoes for 8 weeks, no longer suffers with previous aliments mentioned and has a lovely long floating stride. He has started to enjoy his work and started jumping again. My 14.3hh, 22yr mare has gone from suffering with bruised soles and short stride to longer stride, no bruised feet and enjoying working life again. I have followed traditional farriers advice in the past when they have recommended different shoes such as Epona's or shoes with quarter clips on the front feet to help keep the shoes on, some of these have helped short term and cost a fair amount.

All the horses on my current yard are cytek shod or trimmed. Before I had my horses shod/trimmed the cytek way I did my own research, I found good and bad comments about cyteks, I witnessed Bill carrying out cytek shoeings and trimmings and he has always been willing to answer any questions that I have asked and explained everything in detail. I also asked my old traditional farrier about cyteks to which he informed me that they were a fad, funny thing that a fad has lasted for over a decade. I will never have my horses traditional shod or trimmed again.

I have attended a leg disection where I was reminded of what I had been taught when studying for my BHSAI 16 years, yet people forget or discard  this information/knowledge when it comes to traditional shoeingtrimming. How many traditional farriers can carry out a leg disection, explain and show you the damage that incorrect/traditional shoeing/trimming can cause to a horse. We all know the saying 'No Foot, No Horse'.


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## Crazy Friesian (28 May 2011)

I don't doubt that there are other practitioners who take pride in their "craft" and show concern for the horses welfare. I can only comment on the care - or lack of, that Warwick showed to my horse.

I only wish I had spoken up at the time, but I was more concerned for getting my horse back to his stable and making him comfortable. I think I was in shock and Warwick, by that time had made a very swift exit!  Odd that...


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## ofcourseyoucan (28 May 2011)

cyteck shoes... yet another machine made shoe to fit a live breathing animal.  get a farrier that can make a shoe to suit your horse! good farriers will assess your horse and fit shoes accordingly. if special/remedial shoes are req then get your farrier to make them for him/his needs not buy them out of the box! there are many machine made shoes that suit 75% of horses if you drop into the other 25% then handmade especially for your horse are much better!


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## Luci07 (28 May 2011)

Tried it, farrier made an awful mess of my horses feet. I do have to acknowledge that this was one cytek farrier but it was such an awful experience I would never look at that route again.


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## Laura1812 (29 May 2011)

from the cytek website....

 ''One of the paradoxes when you change from regular shoes to Cytek is that the horse goes through an adaptation period that can last from anything from a couple of days to weeks. Symptoms that are commonly observed but that go away after a couple of weeks include muscle soreness, mild swellings around the fetlock joints without overt lameness and general stiffness.
These symptoms relate to the postural changes the horse is adapting to and responds very well to veterinary physiotherapy, acupuncture and chiropractics.''

Anything that does this to a horse cannot be a good thing!!


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## texel (29 May 2011)

I used Cytek shoes to help my barefoot horse overcome a mysterious period of lameness when the vet could not diagnose the cause and handed care over to my farrier.  

He is sound and barefoot again now and I have kept the shoes in case they are needed again. My horse prefers to be barefoot and from much of the literature and studies I have read over the years,  I certainly believe Cytek shoes are the lesser of the two evils both in it's design and function.  However hammering a nail into a sensitive foot ... it can so easily go wrong.  I believe the traditional shoeing method is just as risky and has the propensity to cause damage and lameness.  Having seen an x-ray of the position of the nail along the white line it does not leave much margin for error !! Also you are introducing bacteria into an enclosed sterile hoof capsule via the nail for starters !

Shoes  can be useful to assist certain anatomical conditions but I would not consider them for long term use. In my experience, I have my doubts,  I have seen far too many bad feet on shod horses then good feet. 

Before making a decision do some research.  The horse's foot is a fascinating and clever structure.


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## HYS (29 May 2011)

Laura1812 said:



			from the cytek website....

 ''One of the paradoxes when you change from regular shoes to Cytek is that the horse goes through an adaptation period that can last from anything from a couple of days to weeks. Symptoms that are commonly observed but that go away after a couple of weeks include muscle soreness, mild swellings around the fetlock joints without overt lameness and general stiffness.
These symptoms relate to the postural changes the horse is adapting to and responds very well to veterinary physiotherapy, acupuncture and chiropractics.''

Anything that does this to a horse cannot be a good thing!!
		
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Laura1812, you seem to be such a smart person, please tell me how come the majority of the lame horses in the world use regular rim shoes?

Just think of all the millions of horses that end up crippled because the rim shoes they are wearing are not intended for horses. 
You may want to focus on this rather unfortunate reality before talking nonsense about things it appears you have very little knowledge of.


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## Meowy Catkin (29 May 2011)

HYS said:



			how come the majority of the lame horses in the world use regular rim shoes? *I would be interested to know the proportion of sound and lame horses when comparing different types of shoes and barefoot/unshod. Also how would you take lameness caused by other factors (eg horse runs into a fence and injures itself) into account?*

Just think of all the millions of horses that end up crippled because the rim shoes they are wearing are not intended for horses. *So what animal were rim shoes designed for?*

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..............


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## Laura1812 (29 May 2011)

Why would you want to make a horse that is 'comfortable' in whatever he is or isn't wearing on his feet, shoe him with a cytek shoe and watch him  develop ''muscle soreness, mild swellings around the fetlock joints without overt lameness and general stiffness.
These symptoms relate to the postural changes the horse is adapting to and responds very well to veterinary physiotherapy, acupuncture and chiropractics.''

Now, one would assume that the horse was sound and comfortable in the first place for him to develop these symptoms - I merely asked, why would you then want to change his posture to this extent?

HYS - You seem very defensive, almost aggressive in your manner for someone that has just appeared on the board. How am I being smart? I have simply copied some text from the Cytek website and questioned it - how is that talking nonsense? It is also very bold of you to assume I know nothing about the Cytek shoeing method from one small post!

In response to you I would say most people use a rim shoe in its various forms because it works for them and their horses - if it didn't, no-one would use them and we would be having this discussion right now. The majority of lame horses are shod in rim shoes because the overall majority of shod horses, lame or not, wear rim shoes.


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## cptrayes (30 May 2011)

MinnieDuke said:



			Subsequently I have looked more into the method and there are two things I disagree with - if you take the picture http://www.cytekhorse.com/home4.html - and draw what would be the natural lines on the hoof along the ground and from the coronet band to where it would meet with the bottom of the foot - you get quite an unatural looking foot - since  lopping the toe off you get a false impression of the foot - From the pictire it looks like it would be like walking with a pair of shoes that dont quite reach the end of my toes, despite cutting of the ends of my toes off.  I cant imagine either someone cutting the ends of my toes of to fit the shoes and I can't imagine why you'd walk in shoes that doesnt reach your toes.  Doenst seem natural  - It also seems bizarre that they do not fit the shoe to the horse
		
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The shoes are this way because a barefoot horse in hard work does not load its foot right to the toe. The breakover point is just in front of the frog, where the pedal bone sits.  Cytek shoes aim to mimic that breakover point, as do natural balance rim shoes. 

One big problem with shoeing this way is that if the  horse has thin soles and the pedal bone is close to the surface, it may bear directly onto the shoe and lame the horse.


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## Ratcatcher (30 May 2011)

tommy30 said:



			Cytek are IMO bordering on cruelty. They are cast iron shoes, that cannot be shaped to fit the foot. Instead the foot is dressed back to fit the shoe. 

The theory behind them is that all pedal bones are the same shape, therefore all hooves are the same shape, and if the hoof doesnt fit the shoe (which is supposed to be the 'correct' shape), it is because the hoof has an imbalance, and needs to be forced into the cytek shape.
		
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Cruel - what absolute tosh! Yet more unthinking rubbish spoken about the Cytek shoeing system. Consider this - your skeleton is the same shape as anyone elses' - including the bones in your feet. If you have arthritis, an injury or a deformity to your foot such as a bunion this will show on your bones. Your foot may be a different size, but are your bones a different shape - No, barring injury etc.. Do human shoes come in different shapes?????????? 
Cytek shoes come in different sizes - they fit the pedal bone - the hoof itself can definitely vary in shape. This is because it is deformed. The hoof is made of a similar material to our toenails - we cut these to keep their shape. Hoof walls get distorted by disease, incorrect shoeing etc... It is the pedal bone that's the important thing and Cytek shoes fit the pedal bone, the distorted 'nail' around it is trimmed and over time it will grow into a healthy shape.  

If you want to talk about cruel - take a look at some of the remedial shoes, sports shoes and other contraptions that some farriers and vets put on a horse's feet.


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## Ratcatcher (30 May 2011)

I have known Bill for many years and this post stinks. He has shod both my horses over the years and the reason I changed to him in the first place was because I was struck by his care, his professionalism and his commonsense when it comes to horses. 

If you are so scared to sue him MinnieDuke because of the very serious rumours you are spreading why have you got your address and a link straight to your Fairview livery yard??? My advice - if you think you've got a case, go for it.

'Cutting a horse's toes off'  - What on earth are you talking about? - if you cut your finger nails are you cutting your fingers off!


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## Ratcatcher (30 May 2011)

Marchtime said:



			Personally I view Cytek shoes as a remedial option to be used when a problem exists, rather than an every day shoe. My TB had them for a year when we'd exhausted other options. He was struggling to keep shoes on, needed silicone gel pads (which in turn were causing his shoes to come off), and was on/off lame. He had been diagnosed with collateral ligament damage. After talks with my farrier and vet we tried Cyteks. They worked for us a short term option whilst his feet recovered. They offered more protection for his sole and allowed us to go longer between shoeings hence allowing more hoof growth. I think done by the right farrier in the right circumstances they are a very useful tool.
		
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Sorry - this is barmy. Your horse is crippled and you had 'exhausted other options'. You find a shoeing system that your horse likes, that allows you to go longer between shoeings. Great!!! 

Oh, just a minute - he's absolutely comfortable now so I'll go back to the kind of shoeing that crippled him in the first place!!!

Strange logic.


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## Gentle_Warrior (30 May 2011)

I have tried Cytek, will never again, it was to improve his movement, he trips a lot and is very choppy in trott.  I did not like the fact that the foot was made to fit the shoe.  He went lame with them, and they did not stay on long at all.

We now have normal shoes with no clips on the fronts, meaning that he rolls his own hooves naturally.

Barge and pole, comes to mind!  sorry


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## Ratcatcher (30 May 2011)

LucyPriory said:



			The most negative things I've hear about Cytek come from an ex Cytek farrier.   Not keen on the idea of making the foot fit the shoe rather than the other way around, but I do see a lot of it - not just with Cytek - but the effects may be more extreme with Cytek because of their shape.
		
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Just as well he's a EX cytek farrier if he thinks he's making the _foot _fit the shoe.


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## Ratcatcher (30 May 2011)

CrazyFriesian said:



			My horse was crippled by the main man himself... The LAST time he saw him he didn't even watch my horse walk back to the stable.

He SHUFFLED back to the stable - it was heart wrenching to see. 

I struggled to get any of the farriers on the yard to touch him. The main thing they were citing was the possibility of stress hairline fractures in the pasterns.

I eventually bit the bullet and made the decision for him to be barefoot...
		
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I think you're talking about a ginger haired farrier so you'll be relieved to know he was got rid of and now I believe does very little shoeing.


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## Ratcatcher (30 May 2011)

ofcourseyoucan said:



			cyteck shoes... yet another machine made shoe to fit a live breathing animal.  get a farrier that can make a shoe to suit your horse! good farriers will assess your horse and fit shoes accordingly. if special/remedial shoes are req then get your farrier to make them for him/his needs not buy them out of the box! there are many machine made shoes that suit 75% of horses if you drop into the other 25% then handmade especially for your horse are much better!
		
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Do please get your facts straight - don't you realise that nearly all farriers use 'machine made shoes'.  

It doesn't matter how 'hand-made, bespoke, made to measure whatever....' your horses shoes are - if they don't fit, they don't fit and your horse is going to suffer.  You're buying horseshoes, not a Savile Row suit and if you think a hand made shoe that follows the distorted shape of your horse's hoof is good, because it's hand made, I feel very sad.


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## Ratcatcher (30 May 2011)

Laura1812 said:



			from the cytek website....

 ''One of the paradoxes when you change from regular shoes to Cytek is that the horse goes through an adaptation period that can last from anything from a couple of days to weeks. Symptoms that are commonly observed but that go away after a couple of weeks include muscle soreness, mild swellings around the fetlock joints without overt lameness and general stiffness.
These symptoms relate to the postural changes the horse is adapting to and responds very well to veterinary physiotherapy, acupuncture and chiropractics.''

Anything that does this to a horse cannot be a good thing!!
		
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So if you're recovering from an illness, an operation - or even a workout at the gym you never get stiff?  If you're talking about a horse that's been fixed in uncomfortable, painful shoes for perhaps many years, their muscles etc.. will have adapted to that disfunctional way of going. If you put comfortable foot wear on, they're going to change their way of going - therefore they will have a period of adjustment whilst their musculate adapts.  Why is that in anyway disturbing??


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## Ratcatcher (30 May 2011)

Laura1812 said:



			Why would you want to make a horse that is 'comfortable' in whatever he is or isn't wearing on his feet, shoe him with a cytek shoe and watch him  develop ''muscle soreness, mild swellings around the fetlock joints without overt lameness and general stiffness.
These symptoms relate to the postural changes the horse is adapting to and responds very well to veterinary physiotherapy, acupuncture and chiropractics.''

Now, one would assume that the horse was sound and comfortable in the first place for him to develop these symptoms - I merely asked, why would you then want to change his posture to this extent?

HYS - You seem very defensive, almost aggressive in your manner for someone that has just appeared on the board. How am I being smart? I have simply copied some text from the Cytek website and questioned it - how is that talking nonsense? It is also very bold of you to assume I know nothing about the Cytek shoeing method from one small post!

In response to you I would say most people use a rim shoe in its various forms because it works for them and their horses - if it didn't, no-one would use them and we would be having this discussion right now. The majority of lame horses are shod in rim shoes because the overall majority of shod horses, lame or not, wear rim shoes.
		
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I probably sound aggressive too - because I'm sick of hearing so much rubbish spoken, from so little experience or commonsense when I know how beneficial these shoes are. Your lack of knowledge and experience sadly is self evident in your posting.


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## Ratcatcher (30 May 2011)

nat_a_528 said:



			HI guys

Just had cyteks put on my Tb mare, 

Since having it done I have heard awful things about them !!
Should i remove them 

Has anyone had any experiences with them , good or bad??

Please let me know as I am really worrying[/B]
		
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If I have come across as aggressive on my postings it is because I have lost patience with the nonsense spouted about this shoeing system. It's not the best way to make friends and influence people but I have tried reasoning in the past and have hit a brick wall so now I'm just telling it how it is and if you're offended so be it.

Nat - don't be put off by those who seek to bully you, talk behind your back an otherwise put pressure on you by spreading so called 'horror stories' . You will get all of that believe me. Use your own commonsense, watch how your horse is going. Is he happy, sound?  Fine - stuff anyone who tells you it's wrong and listen to your horse.


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## Marchtime (30 May 2011)

Ratcatcher said:



			Sorry - this is barmy. Your horse is crippled and you had 'exhausted other options'. You find a shoeing system that your horse likes, that allows you to go longer between shoeings. Great!!! 

Oh, just a minute - he's absolutely comfortable now so I'll go back to the kind of shoeing that crippled him in the first place!!!

Strange logic.
		
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Not barmy thank you. Nowhere in my post did I say my horse was crippled, I stated he was on/off lame and this was very low level. He was sound in shoes with silicone gel pads but as I stated we were having trouble with him pulling off shoes, thus causing lameness, hence Cyteks were recommended (as were glue on shoes but after research I opted for Cyteks). I stopped using Cyteks for a number of reasons - I wasn't happy with my farrier, it was winter and he no longer needed the same level of sole protection and because of some other problems that were very individual to my horse. The transition back to natural balance shoes went well.
I stick by my opinion that they are a great remedial option (either short or long term) but like all things horse related you need to look at the individual circumstances to see if they are the right option for each horse.


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## chestnut cob (30 May 2011)

Ratcatcher said:



			So if you're recovering from an illness, an operation - or even a workout at the gym you never get stiff?  If you're talking about a horse that's been fixed in uncomfortable, painful shoes for perhaps many years, their muscles etc.. will have adapted to that disfunctional way of going. If you put comfortable foot wear on, they're going to change their way of going - therefore they will have a period of adjustment whilst their musculate adapts.  Why is that in anyway disturbing??
		
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^^ This ^^

I had this exact conversation with a vet recently who said horses going into this type of shoe can take time to adapt - most of them will already be lame or have some issue and these shoes change the horse's way of going, which the body needs time to adjust to.  No different to the fact that when I looked into barefoot for my horse, I was told by lots of barefooters that his body would change because of the new way of moving (and therefore way of using himself), this would take a long time and while it was happening, he would benefit from massage /physio/body work.

I can't comment specifically on Cytek shoes but have seen Natural Balance shoes do amazing things when put on to horses with issues.


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## Tiny Fluffy Coblet (31 May 2011)

@ cpobtfae 
#1 - Opinion not oppinion.
#2 - 'WRONG' does not refute a reasonable concern, please explain.
#3 - 'haha' is a remarkably stupid thing to put in a post if you want it taken seriously. 





			Laura1812, you seem to be such a smart person, please tell me how come the majority of the lame horses in the world use regular rim shoes?
		
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Clever people please tell me how come very few of the colic cases in the UK are champaign horses? oo that must mean that champaign horses are resistant to colic, right? 

And seeing as most of the people in the UK who have broken legs wore trainers at some point in the last year that must mean trainers are a factor contributing to broken legs......

Firstly I very much doubt 




			the world
		
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 is correct in this sentence as a large number of the lame horses and mules that the brooke clinic treat in third world countries are not shod. 

Secondly if you apply this to the UK then most of the lame horses wear shoes because most of the horses wear shoes. It is possible that a higher PROPORTION of horses wearing rim shoes are lame over those who wear cytek or are barefoot but that is still a statement requiring evidence.


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## Luci07 (31 May 2011)

cpobtfae said:



			probably not a Cytek trained farrier or using Cytek shoes.
		
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Probably not, but he was promoting himself as a fully qualified cytek farrier and he was using cytek shoes.  I freely admit I am a nosey owner with a load of questions but he didn't give me much in the way of answers. I should however have listened to my own advice which is if it isn't broke, then don't fix it. I read up on this system and really liked what I read. My experiences however mean I won't go back. My original stance that I know this was one farrier and I can't judge all still stands but it didn't leave the best taste in my mouth.


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## Ratcatcher (1 June 2011)

Luci07 said:



			Probably not, but he was promoting himself as a fully qualified cytek farrier and he was using cytek shoes.  I freely admit I am a nosey owner with a load of questions but he didn't give me much in the way of answers. I should however have listened to my own advice which is if it isn't broke, then don't fix it. I read up on this system and really liked what I read. My experiences however mean I won't go back. My original stance that I know this was one farrier and I can't judge all still stands but it didn't leave the best taste in my mouth.
		
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It's a shame that one farrier has ruined your view of an excellent shoe especially as it sounds as if you could understand what it was about. If he knew what he was doing he would have answered all your questions freely. It's a very simple principle behind the shoeing that is very easy to understand once it's explained and makes perfect sense. It is odd that in my experience the people who most easily 'get it' are the ones who have nothing to do with horses like engineers, carpenters etc... practical people and the ones who have the most trouble seem to be a lot of owners and many farriers. Maybe they've just lost the plot amongst the fog of BS that pervades the horse industry.

As a horse owner I've never understood what the basics behind traditional shoeing are and the farriers I've asked in the past have either been very vague or distinctly irritated that I've dared to ask and have all had their own different ideas which left me feeling uneasy and with the thought they either didn't really know themselves or were making it up as they went along and trying this and that.  One farrier told me 'if you put 12 farriers in a room you'll get 13 different opinions'. 

The other thing is that does anyone else have the same feeling as me that 'remedial shoes' in all their weird and wonderful shapes just don't look the sort of things that should be put on the foot of a living animal?  I've seen some horrors and they've invariably meant the downhill slope for any horse that has the misfortune of wearing them. I've seen mashed heels, rotten feet, soggy soles and terrible bruises on horses with these so-called remedial shoes. Surely we have to ask what in heaven's name are we doing to our horses?  Is it really right to jack them up with wedges and clamp them with heart bars?  When you get a chance take a look at some photos of some of the remedial and specialist shoes that go on our horses. Do they look as if they belong on an animal? These are living creatures, flesh and blood and fitting these grotesque pieces of metal work to their feet just ain't right in anyone's language. Surely? 

All I can say is that in your case a bad farrier has spoilt the chance of you and your horse benefitting from the best shoe there is and the shoe has been held to blame.  In traditional farriery there are plenty of bad farriers but most owners never blame the shoes they use.


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## Laura1812 (1 June 2011)

Ratcatcher said:



			I probably sound aggressive too - because I'm sick of hearing so much rubbish spoken, from so little experience or commonsense when I know how beneficial these shoes are. Your lack of knowledge and experience sadly is self evident in your posting.
		
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Can you please give me examples of this?



Ratcatcher said:



			Consider this - your skeleton is the same shape as anyone elses' - including the bones in your feet. If you have arthritis, an injury or a deformity to your foot such as a bunion this will show on your bones. Your foot may be a different size, but are your bones a different shape - No, barring injury etc.. Do human shoes come in different shapes??????????
		
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Actually bones vary from individual to individual, how those bones are aligned and loaded also varies - not just in humans but animals too. Some pedal bones are shallow, some are more concave. We are all different.

Also one main difference between human shoes and any horse shoe made of metal is that human shoes flex. This allows for distortion and allows a certain amount of give.

And yes, sport shoes in particular are made in different shapes, actually, to accommodate different stride and loading patterns - an example of this can be found with running shoes -they are availiable as supinator, pronator and neutral according to your conformation, stride and loading patterns and you only have to visit a human podiatrist to see all the varying insoles etc they put into human shoes.

It is a shame you have been unable to have a reasonable and respectful conversation on this subject as i'm sure you probably have some interesting things to 'bring to the table', but sadly, that has ruined my respect for what you have to say. Ranting, as you say, is not a good way to make friends and influence people.

You are also sounding a little fanatical - there is always more than one road to Rome and what works for some horses won't work for others for a thousand different reasons. One day, you might have to take a step back and realise that Cytek isn't the be all and end all for a particular horse, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as you can recognise that before any harm is done.


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## Angel123 (1 June 2011)

Exactly we choose what we feel our horses are happy with. I have used many different farriers some were bad some were good but it still didn't work. It worked for others at the yard but not for me or my pony. Untill I started using Cytek. Wow! pony now had cytek for over 13 years and has never lost a shoe or gone lame. I have never been let down rain or shine. My farrier always fits in with me. The welfare of my pony always comes first even when at first he was a little difficult to shoe my farrier never lost his temper. (as others had) He just took his time. My pony is in his early 20's now and still working very hard for me and seems to show no signs of age or slowing down.  I feel my pony benefits specially with the 10 to 13 weeks as there is obviously less stress to his legs as before it was every 4 to 6 weeks!!!! 

Cytek has worked for me thank you Bill


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## Angel123 (1 June 2011)

Its not ranting and raving or being fanatical. Its having trust in something that you feel is a good thing and wanting to share that exciting knowledge with people. Nothing wrong in that. I always say what a brilliant thing cytek is why would I not. I am glad people are excited about cytek and love to hear of all the successfull sound equines galloping about!!!! You can never stop learning and the world progresses and moves forward all the time. I feel sad when it has not worked out for someone but for that one equine it has suited many more all over the world!


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## giveitago (1 June 2011)

Dinner plate feet on a tbx shod in horrible, 2 sizes too big, toe clip monsters...changed shoeing to cytek the week i bought him. Improved immensly, brought toes back, gained some heel etc.

However, after a few years my farrier suggested we move him onto NB as 'cytek had changed the shoes and they were not so good for my ned anymore'. Now, my farrier never trimmed my ned to fit the cytek perfectly, the cytek was always too wide at the heels for him but thatvwas fine, toe was good and nail area fine so it was ok. But i find out that NB can be bashed into shape more easily than the cyteks and i noticed that the cyteks got really chunky and heavy too. So ned had NB for a few years. We are mow at the proper size and shape.

I pleased to say he is now barefoot, but that is mainly due to my farrier who has perservered with my neds crappy feet over the years and now has a whole foot which is healthy and a good shape. 

Shh! He hasnt been lame for years! Yipppeeee!


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## Bubbles (2 June 2011)

Been watching this thread with much interest, I had no idea that Cytek still had a following, and people obviously feel quite emotional about it  I used Cytek on my little mare about 10 years ago now, only for about 18months or so, after a friend recommended what a difference they'd made to her previously short choppy striding horse. I can't remember noticing any big difference to my girl's way of going, for me the big thing was that she was able to go barefoot when I had previously tried to do that after using rim shoes and it didn't work. 
FWIW, the farrier I was using was an absolute pain in the posterior, tried very hard to get us involved in some sort of dodgy pyramid selling scheme, I could never get hold of him, and the final straw came when he'd left me for in excess of 14 weeks, and whilst jumping in the field a front shoe snapped clean in half in the middle while still attached to the hoof. In all fairness any shoe left long enough could do that, but I was pretty p*ssed off at the time. I do remember how slippy they would become on the road, and I remember just how much the damn things hurt when the little cow leapt on both of my feet one day - the little studdy bits ripped toe nails clean off


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## Ratcatcher (2 June 2011)

Laura1812 said:



			Can you please give me examples of this?

'Cytek are IMO bordering on cruelty. They are cast iron shoes, that cannot be shaped to fit the foot. Instead the foot is dressed back to fit the shoe.

The theory behind them is that all pedal bones are the same shape, therefore all hooves are the same shape, and if the hoof doesnt fit the shoe (which is supposed to be the 'correct' shape), it is because the hoof has an imbalance, and needs to be forced into the cytek shape.'

'Cytek shoes as a remedial option to be used when a problem exists, rather than an every day shoe.'

'making the foot fit the shoe rather than the other way around'

'cyteck shoes... yet another machine made shoe to fit a live breathing animal. get a farrier that can make a shoe to suit your horse! good farriers will assess your horse and fit shoes accordingly. if special/remedial shoes are req then get your farrier to make them for him/his needs not buy them out of the box! there are many machine made shoes that suit 75% of horses if you drop into the other 25% then handmade especially for your horse are much better!'

'One big problem with shoeing this way is that if the horse has thin soles and the pedal bone is close to the surface, it may bear directly onto the shoe and lame the horse.'

Need I go on?  I've heard all of these before and variations on the same themes
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Actually bones vary from individual to individual, how those bones are aligned and loaded also varies - not just in humans but animals too. Some pedal bones are shallow, some are more concave. We are all different.

Please can you give examples of how, barring injury, disease there is such a major deviation from a norm and how traditional shoeing seeks to accommodate/alleviate or cure these issues? You misunderstand, the _size_ of the bones will vary but the shape deviation does not vary much beyond a norm (barring the above)



And yes, sport shoes in particular are made in different shapes, actually, to accommodate different stride and loading patterns - an example of this can be found with running shoes -they are availiable as supinator, pronator and neutral according to your conformation, stride and loading patterns and you only have to visit a human podiatrist to see all the varying insoles etc they put into human shoes.

Also one main difference between human shoes and any horse shoe made of metal is that human shoes flex. This allows for distortion and allows a certain amount of give.

The horses hoof is constructed in a  different way from the human foot. I have never seen a sports shoe that varies significantly in the way it is shaped to the foot. When the fashion for footwear was winklepickers it was soon realised that they damaged feet and there are many bunions on feet today to testify. If you are suggesting that traditional farriery caters for all the variations you appear to suggest, please can you explain how?

It is a shame you have been unable to have a reasonable and respectful conversation on this subject as i'm sure you probably have some interesting things to 'bring to the table', but sadly, that has ruined my respect for what you have to say. Ranting, as you say, is not a good way to make friends and influence people.

You are also sounding a little fanatical - there is always more than one road to Rome and what works for some horses won't work for others for a thousand different reasons. One day, you might have to take a step back and realise that Cytek isn't the be all and end all for a particular horse, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as you can recognise that before any harm is done.
		
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Cytek horseshoeing has been around for a long time now and it's worked for thousands of horses. Everyone is free to comment but my respect is limited for those who fail to find out the facts yet feel qualified to state untruths, inaccuracies and sometimes downright lies about something they have no knowledge of then complain when those who do have the knowledge and experience take them to task.

If you are able to explain to me how traditional shoeing works and how all the different types of shoe and the different ways of fitting them make a difference I may change my mind.


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## Laura1812 (2 June 2011)

I can't reply properly now as I am on my mobile, but if you read the previous posts you will find that a lot of what you have quoted in your post above was not contributed by me. So can you please correct this?

The rest I will read and reply to in full when I am next on a computer. In the meantime I would appreciate it if you only quoted me as saying things that I have actually said.


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## Laura1812 (2 June 2011)

In actual fact after reading your examples to me I, in fact, didn't say any one of the examples you have given me. So please amend this immediately.


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## Angel123 (3 June 2011)

Who ever said cytek is bordering on cruelty. In my opionion is wrong.

My pony has been sound and in work for over 13years with cytek he is now in his early 20's. His coat and body condition are perfect and I get many  comments on how well he looks and performs. I do not even add all the hoof suppliments to his feed anymore. I do not have to. (I had tried nearly everything before which made no difference only to my bank balance)

His peformance over the years has been oustanding. I would never turn the clock back or question the choice to go cytek. I know I did the RIGHT thing for my pony. It shows in him!

How can this be cruelty???


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## Darkly_Dreaming_Dex (3 June 2011)

*unbiased opinion based on experience*

When i was working as a groom,my boss decided to try them on her collection of M&M ponies after being constantly "let down" by other "normal" farriers not turning up. Warwick was always on time and managed to get Cytek shoes on all of them which was a feat in itself as two of them were almost impossible just to pick out feet. They all went well in them but we did find them very slippery on the roads. I wasnt a great fan of their appearance but not being kicked and sat on was a massive bonus as W advised not to pick out feet. We had no problems with lameness etc but i didnt choose to move my 2 over to him either 

After nearly a year, my boss's best horse went off to a professional producer and she found herself being dropped down the line for the "ugly feet" and normal shoes were fitted instead.Sounds like a harsh comment but NB and even side clips in front can be regarded as "incorrect" in the showring

 Pony went on to be placed at Olympia  

my personal opinion was that W had an ego the size of Europe which made it very hard to have any kind of discussion beyond how perfect his shoeing was for any horse in any scenario, i missed not being able to grill my farrier with lots of "How" "Why" etc (but i do also always have them ready with clean feet, adlib tea/coffee and depending on time of day either cakes or bacon butties  ) i also didnt like the briefcase full of shoes all in rows like a sales rep might carry. The trimming was no more severe than for NB. Both those shoes can result in a little soreness at the toe as the horse is not necessarily used to having the breakover exposed BUT a little soreness is totally different to laming a horse..

I did like that he came when he said he would, he answered his phone and he didnt mind being thugged up by rude M&M ponies. I would certainly consider cytek shoes (fitted by someone i could communicate with) as part of an ongoing quest for a solution to the problems Jacob the clydie has had- he really wont do barefoot- we have tried for 2 years and have just had to give up and put NB back on


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## Ratcatcher (3 June 2011)

Laura1812 said:



			In actual fact after reading your examples to me I, in fact, didn't say any one of the examples you have given me. So please amend this immediately.
		
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I didn't say you did. They are examples of what is so frustrating whenever the subject of Cytek comes up on a forum. The same old untruths and misconceptions that stop some owners from adopting a shoe that could make their lame horses sound and in extreme cases save it from the bullet. That makes me angry.

Regarding your post, if you read the contra-indications on any pharmaceutical they can range from runny noses (honestly) to more serious issues that need addressing urgently such as difficulty breathing. Drowsiness is another common one but does that mean we shouldn't think of taking them even if they can make us better?

I had a hip operation some time ago. After the recovery period my muscles  had lost all tone after years of walking in a way that tried to compensate for the pain. When I exercised they stiffened and I still walked with a slight limp although I was painless. Even now, my one ankle will swell slightly after a lot of walking because I am still favoring my other but I'm still painfree. Would I still have gone through with it if I'd known I'd be stiff and my ankles would swell for a while? Of course I would.

I can only assume that anyone who has to ask whether a small, short lived period of stiffness and slight discomfort is worth putting up with in order to be comfortable and pain free has perhaps been fortunate enough not to have ever been in that position themselves.

In my own experience and I have known many horses that have changed to Cytek these issues have been very rare as a lot of owners naturally give their horses a few days off in the field because they realise there may be an adjustment period.


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## Ratcatcher (3 June 2011)

Darkly_Dreaming_Dex said:



			*unbiased opinion based on experience*

When i was working as a groom,my boss decided to try them on her collection of M&M ponies after being constantly "let down" by other "normal" farriers not turning up. Warwick was always on time and managed to get Cytek shoes on all of them which was a feat in itself as two of them were almost impossible just to pick out feet. They all went well in them but we did find them very slippery on the roads. I wasnt a great fan of their appearance but not being kicked and sat on was a massive bonus as W advised not to pick out feet. We had no problems with lameness etc but i didnt choose to move my 2 over to him either 

After nearly a year, my boss's best horse went off to a professional producer and she found herself being dropped down the line for the "ugly feet" and normal shoes were fitted instead.Sounds like a harsh comment but NB and even side clips in front can be regarded as "incorrect" in the showring

 Pony went on to be placed at Olympia  

my personal opinion was that W had an ego the size of Europe which made it very hard to have any kind of discussion beyond how perfect his shoeing was for any horse in any scenario, i missed not being able to grill my farrier with lots of "How" "Why" etc (but i do also always have them ready with clean feet, adlib tea/coffee and depending on time of day either cakes or bacon butties  ) i also didnt like the briefcase full of shoes all in rows like a sales rep might carry. The trimming was no more severe than for NB. Both those shoes can result in a little soreness at the toe as the horse is not necessarily used to having the breakover exposed BUT a little soreness is totally different to laming a horse..

I did like that he came when he said he would, he answered his phone and he didnt mind being thugged up by rude M&M ponies. I would certainly consider cytek shoes (fitted by someone i could communicate with) as part of an ongoing quest for a solution to the problems Jacob the clydie has had- he really wont do barefoot- we have tried for 2 years and have just had to give up and put NB back on 

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Oh lord, it makes me cringe to hear what W got up to. I knew him too and although he had plus points I believe he is responsible for doing so much damage to peoples' perception of Cytek shoes.

If you would like to email me privately I can give you the number of an excellent farrier who is more than happy to answer all your questions.


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## USA FARRIER (3 June 2011)

This post is in regaurds to a post by Minnie Duke on 5/26/11 about Cytek and Bill Diemling. First let me start by saying that I was present that day at the yard. Nothing that she claims in that posting could be farther from the truth. I do beleve her horse is hoping lame because it was that way before Bill ever touched the horse. Bill and I both recommended protecting the foot with shoes she insisted bare foot was the only way to go. Mind you the horse had two poorly fit long past due for a reset shoes on. One shoe on the front and one on the back. The horse could have been the poster child for all the things that could be wrong with a horses feet and legs. If she would have listened to are advise no doubt in my mind this horse would be back on track!!! As far as the trim that Bill did every thing was done to a standard that few ferriers or vets would argue was right for that horse. I would recommend that Minnie reevaluate her horse husbandry skills. A wise person once told me" when you point the finger at some one or some thing you always have three fingers pointing back at you" I would also like to add that her other comments about Bill were nothing less than sophomoric and simple minded.


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