# No winter turnout??



## Toffee44 (15 August 2011)

Does this actually mean the horse sees no grass over winter or just very limited???

I am shocked at the amount of stables that have no winter turnout.

For me that is not a option completly goes against keeping a horse and keeping the horse in a sane enviroment. I dont stay in one room all day and not go out etc. If it means there is no turnout for the horse whatsoever.


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## team barney (15 August 2011)

It usually means no turnout whatsoever 

i wouldn't keep my horse on a yard with a no winter turnout policy either.  Unfortunately many of the large yards want to keep their paddocks looking pristine so don't allow it.

I don't like a lot of these huge establishments as what goes on out of sight isn't always pretty.  I visited a renown showground/yard once and was shocked to find two young ponies shut in the back of stable in a tiny sectioned off area barely big enough for one of them, they lived in there 24/7 apparently, poor little things couldn't even see the outside, they were literally shut in the dark.


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## Potless (15 August 2011)

We have no turnout. It can vary and is weather dependent, ie frosty weather they can go out but wet, no. Can last for a good couple of months and the whole yard despairs :-(

We do have an indoor 'arena' that we turnout it when mucking out, but still it's a miserable situation for the neds


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## jeeve (15 August 2011)

agreed not healthy to have a horse in all the time, they do need turnout mentally and physically


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## Dancing Queen (15 August 2011)

not the best solution for horses and 1 i wouldnt expose mine to.


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## MerrySherryRider (15 August 2011)

Its an issue that I'd like the horse welfare organisations to address in regard to livery yards. 
Moving to an area a few years ago, found it was commonplace to offer very limited/or no winter turnout. The nearest yard to my house has no grazing from October -May. Horses are turned out on 2 small areas of hard standing complete with muck heap for 6 months for a few hours everyday. Other yards may have weeks without any turnout when the ground is wet. Stabled in dusty, dark indoor stables, not seeing or breathing fresh air except for 20 minutes standing in the school while stable is mucked out. Many of those horses are not ridden/exercised during the week and consequently become too excitable to ride on the days their owners have the time.
 When I had the misfortune to find my yard's all year turnout actually meant 'subject to dry weather', I found myself spending hours each day trying to exercise/graze in hand my horses while looking for 'real' winter turnout.


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## Syrah (15 August 2011)

Mine would go nuts with no turnout.  I wouldn't consider any yard that had a no winter turnout policy.


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## wellsat (15 August 2011)

I would see it as completely unacceptable. If you can't turn out in winter because it ruins the fields then you haven't got enough grazing for the number of horses on your yard. Fair enough if the horse in question suffers from raging mud fever and the fields are under a foot of water but as a general rule I think its cruel. I don't have a native, I have a think skinned imported WB who would quite happily live in his stable if he had to but I still like to see him get some turnout to run around and play with his friends. Even in the snow last year they still went out every single day.


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## PolarSkye (15 August 2011)

We have enough grazing to be able to rest fields - horses and ponies go out at night/in during the day - year round (except those who don't like going out - and, yes, we do have a few of those - or just can't go out for long b/c they are retired/ill, etc.).

Have to say that I would never have Kal anywhere where he couldn't go out - even in the worst weather for just a couple of hours if it were safe to get to the field.

P


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## monkeybum13 (15 August 2011)

Our turnout is limited in winter but there are quite a few local yards that have no winter turn out at all, I think it is unfair on the horses and is not good physically or mentally.


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## PolarSkye (15 August 2011)

wellsat said:



			I would see it as completely unacceptable. If you can't turn out in winter because it ruins the fields then you haven't got enough grazing for the number of horses on your yard. Fair enough if the horse in question suffers from raging mud fever and the fields are under a foot of water but as a general rule I think its cruel. I don't have a native, I have a think skinned imported WB who would quite happily live in his stable if he had to but I still like to see him get some turnout to run around and play with his friends. Even in the snow last year they still went out every single day.
		
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Totally agree . . . my own thin-skinned, imported sport horse NEEDS to go out - does his head in if he's kept in for too long.  Horses need to be outside - as long as it's safe for them to do so.

P


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## BubbleDog (15 August 2011)

I wouldn't touch a yard with 'no winter turnout' with a bargepole.  Quite apart from the massive cost one would incur from having a horse stabled 24/7 it is really bad for the horses breathing, metal welbeing, and joints.  I agree with earlier poster that I'd like to see laws to address this.  These yards don't care that if you spent any length of time there your horse would eventually be crippled up with arthritis etc.  Horses are designed to roam and to be on the move all the time.


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## 4faults (15 August 2011)

We have no turnout from nov-march all horses cope well with this arrangement, they are all ridden, use the horsewalker and can blow off steam in the indoor.

There are no yards by me that offer winter turnout :-( I would like it even if just for an hour a day but it's just not available


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## CHH (15 August 2011)

I agee with 'wellsat' and others.

I am shocked as to how many yards do not provide winter turnout.

To me that is simply too many horses on the acres they have and not managing setting up the land sufficently.
It seems abit "Pile em high" to me, get as many horses on the yard without considering the welfare needs of the horse.

Good drainage systems, hardcore gateways and paths etc... can all make all year turnout perfectly possible. But these cost money/time etc...

If the horses without turnout were being exercised well each day, given enough mental stimulation and some time in the arena then some may be OK on this set up. Afterall most stallions live this sort of existence.

However, for most 'hobby' animals and their owners in the winter it must just be a total stress - what on earth do the DIY-ers do in these situations if they have flu or something?
Rely on someone else? Has someone really go that extra time?

We are fortunate to have ours at home, last winter when I had flu and my hubby was trying to deal with 'the small humans', meals, cleaning, working, ill wife and then the 'herd' - I just told him to rug them up and turn them out.

They were all fine - even the thin skinned Europeans, good rugs helped, the only one not keen on that was the Irish horse - hmmm but he is abit "pipe & slippers".

I don't envy anyone who faces a winter like last one, no turnout and potentially nowhere to ride.


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## BorgRae (15 August 2011)

4faults said:



			We have no turnout from nov-march all horses cope well with this arrangement, they are all ridden, use the horsewalker and can blow off steam in the indoor.

There are no yards by me that offer winter turnout :-( I would like it even if just for an hour a day but it's just not available
		
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^^^THIS^^^ 

I'm in the North West and yards with Winter Turnout just don't seem to exist?! If you find one with spaces and facilities to ride as well... You're very lucky !! ... And if you do happen to know one, let me know!!!!!!


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## 4faults (15 August 2011)

Borgrae- where in the north west are you? Searched high and low for a place with winter turnout but had to settle for great facilities so they can be exercised everyday. Would love to see them out on crisp winter days though


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## glamourpuss (15 August 2011)

I once kept my boy on a yard and I was totally lied to about the winter turnout situation. I was told that we might be expected to limit it in very bad weather. The truth was that they were expected to stay in from beginning of October and I finally left in March and they were still in. Everytime you asked the owner when you would be able to turnout you were just told 'I'll see if I can find you a field next week' or some other fob off excuse!
We had access to an indoor school which we were only allowed to turn out in if we were there watching our horses. 

I wouldn't mind but they had over 100 acres of land....they just didn't want it to get muddy. Oh and that having them in meant we had to buy lots of inflated price hay and shavings from the farmer.

I couldn't stand it and ended up going onto permanent nights whilst I looked for another suitable yard. 

I ended up:
Another livery would give him a haynet and small feed at 6.00 am
I finished work 8 am - 
go to yard - Tack up and ride for a minimum of an hour. 
Turn out in indoor with a haynet for a roll etc whilst I mucked out. I then used to sleep in my car next to the indoor for 2-3 hours so that he could stretch his legs etc whilst I was 'watching him'. 
Back in his stable with another small feed. 
I then went home ate lunch and went to bed for another few hours.
Back to the yard 
Grazed him in hand for a minimum of an hour and half. I used to sit on a fold out chair reading a book, him on a lunge line. In wet weather I huddled under an umbrella. 
He then went out in the indoor school again for another couple of hours whilst I skipped out etc.
A good groom. 
Then an evening feed. 
Back home for another small sleep, dinner and off to work.

Everyone used to tell me I was mad but I couldn't see him just shut in all day. 
I was soooo knackered and always seemed to be struggling with a cold. I literally wept with relief the day I moved him to the wonderful, scruffy yard with muddy fields and I watched him bucking and squealing with joy as I turned him out


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## benson21 (15 August 2011)

Thing is everyone wants winter turnout, but if you get it, it knackers the field for the summer! Unless of course you have enough to rotate the turnout.


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## smellsofhorse (15 August 2011)

I wouldn't be on a yard if this was the case.
It is totally unfair.

If you can't rotate fields or allow a winter one to be trashed then you have too many horses for the land.


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## BorgRae (15 August 2011)

4faults said:



			Borgrae- where in the north west are you? Searched high and low for a place with winter turnout but had to settle for great facilities so they can be exercised everyday. Would love to see them out on crisp winter days though
		
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I live in Blackpool, but currently stable in St. Michaels. I'm moving to a yard in Wrea Green on Saturday though for more summer turnout.

I'm gutted I'm moving yards mind, as I LOVE the yard I'm at now, but need more summer turn out for my lad. I'm pretty sure the yard I'm moving to in Wrea Green has no winter turn out, but does have a sand paddock turnout pen so he can have a buck and a fart! Both yards have great facilities, so that's a bonus!

Where are you??


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## 4faults (15 August 2011)

I'm in Warrington, and had the same problem, great facilities but no winter turnout, tried mine on another yard with rubbish facilities and some turnout in winter but they hated it there, are so much more settled on this place so we will soldier on ;-)


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## Damnation (15 August 2011)

We have very very limited winter turnout (read this as a day a month..)
My horse copes. We have a lean to to turn out into when we muck out and I always ride/graze her in hand.
Unfortunately I have no real choice, its the only yard in a 18mile radius. Literally.
Thankfully this winter I have been informed we will have a a couple of hours a day of turnout due to there being less horses on the land..
It really annoys me too because its poor field management.. they have the land... but they use the well drained land in the summer and the clay type poorly drained land in the winter?!


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## BorgRae (15 August 2011)

I'm really keeping my fingers crossed that my lad likes the new yard. There's more summer turnout, and like I said, a play pen for winter. And the facilities are still great... But more expensive 

Here's hoping it all goes well!!!!


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## 9tails (15 August 2011)

benson21 said:



			Thing is everyone wants winter turnout, but if you get it, it knackers the field for the summer! Unless of course you have enough to rotate the turnout.
		
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You don't need enough to rotate necessarily.  We have winter turnout, out during the day and in at night, but we (3 owners) take great care to ensure that the horses come in together so that there's no mad charging about.  We keep in occasionally and also cut off the bottom half.

I wouldn't contemplate keeping my horse anywhere that had NO turnout for 6 months of the year, it's a recipe for tendon trouble once they are allowed out.  I also wouldn't want to ride a horse that was brim full of excitement after being cooped up for possibly days.


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## furball (15 August 2011)

The only yard round here that has proper winter turn out is scruffy as hell but hey its full!!!!! Im lucky i rent my own private yard so i please my self, mine are out every day in the winter and 24/7 in the summer. And no i dont have the land iv only 2 acres for 5 ponies!!! So it is possable with out having acres of land!


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## NOISYGIRL (15 August 2011)

My friend is in equine studies college and takes her horse with her, I find it unbelievable where an institution is teaching equine studies and doesn't allow winter turnout. He goes nuts understandably has been unmanagable, I think this creates vices


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## Honey08 (15 August 2011)

I hate horses being in too, but its very easy to condemn yards for over population and bad management, and unless you have run a yard you can't really comment.  Its also easy to say that fields wouldn't churn up when you are on good draining soil - if you are on clay, like us, you are basically living in the bottom of a big pond!  Its also easy to say that gates and fields should have hardcore/concrete paths - try getting it past the planning dept round here...

We used to do DIY, and had six horses on 20 acres.  They churned it up like you wouldn't believe.  Yes the drains could do with redoing, but it would cost thousands - that we don't have, and the DIYs made about £1 profit a week for us after stable and field maintenance... In the end we stopped doing DIY so that our 3 horses could have the land in a better state.

My friend runs a livery yard near us, and doesn't do turnout over the winter.  It is a condition of her tennancy on some extra land that she rents, that it is rested over the winter and rolled etc to keep it in good condition. Its not ideal.  The horses are turned out on a sand school for an hour a day.  The yard has a huge waiting list.

If these yards were regulated to only allow enough horses so that they could turn out, many of the DIYs would be kicked off, and there wouldn't be anywhere for you all to keep your horses, as there would be huge competition for yards. Prices would also rocket.  So be very careful what you wish for!  (Not saying that its right that horses should be kept in, but that there are good reasons, and people choose where they stable..)


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## CHH (15 August 2011)

I think in part it is down to land management, as others say; too many horses, and/or poor management.

It's easy to squash more stables into a yard and take livery money, but that isn't the consideration of the horses welfare. I have seen this over the years too many times.

Whilst I appreciate in certain conditions turnout is not possible (severe ice to walk on perhaps) I believe all horses should be given access to kick up their heels each day - and for at least 2-3 hours.

My friend had an ex-racer who was on such a yard (no turnout) - when they finally did have turnout he went mental and bowed a tendon, she was devastated.

I am in awe of the dedication of some owners (the lady who worked nights) to manage for their horse.

Must be terrible, and for those who have nothing closer to home, I guess finding the balance of life/horse/work etc... with how far you are prepared to travel (and it's costs) must be so tricky.


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## MiCsarah (15 August 2011)

I used to be at a yard where we had limited turnout! As soon as it rained we had to stay in. Which I didn't know until i arrived one morning and was told I wasn't allowed to turn out as it was spitting!!! I went up 3 times a day to graze and take him for strolls around the village. It was hard work having 2 and doing that. Some of the horses there never left the stables! I now love my new yard and when I asked about if there was any limited turn out in the winter, she just laughed at me and said of course not. It's great we have so much land for so few horses. We literally use 1/4 of the field for the summer so winter grazing is great!


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## Enfys (15 August 2011)

On the flip side of the coin, I used to *choose* to keep my horses in for the majority of time.

The land was clay, and holes and mud were literally knee high at times, bad enough when it was wet (Wales, it was wet *a lot*) but when the ground froze, lethal. The state of the land was nothing to do with bad management, it was just unavoidable due to the soil and the weather. There was an arena that they went in whilst we cleaned stalls, and my horses were hunting fit so got exercised everyday. 

If I had to Board my horses now I wouldn't even *consider* a yard where there was compulsory stabling, fortunately, I am not in that position and can do whatever I like.

Nowadays I never bring them in, anyway, I only have 10 stalls. Sure the land (sand based and flat) gets a bit muddy/flooded when the snow melts but it is rolled and harrowed when we can get on there and after a few weeks it is back to being a dustbowl for the summer. 

Sometimes, YO's are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.


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## GingerCat (15 August 2011)

All of you who are quick to codemn the keeping of horses with no winter turnout, I wonder how many of you would actually put your money where you mouth was if you were suddenly unable to turnout and you couldn't find a yard that could provide winter turnout.
Would you decide to sell your horses?
I doubt it 

It's really annoyed me how some of you have the nerve to codemn those of us who's horses don't have access to turnout 24/7.
 I've been on yards with winter turnout, although they are few and far between in my area. The fields tended to become bare and very muddy in a short time. The horses looked wet and miserable a lot of the time, just hanging round the gate waiting to come in or squabbling amongst themselves.

The yard I'm on now has great facilities, but unfortunately no winter turnout into the fields. Over winter we can turnout in an outdoor arena daily, or an indoor one if it's not being used for riding..so our horses do get to socialise in small groups

One of my horses has just gone out after being on 6 months boxrest, perhaps I should just have had him PTS to save him from the trauma of an 'un-natural' environment!


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## millitiger (15 August 2011)

I would never keep my horses at a yard with no turnout.

And yes, I have run a yard with awful clay soil and the fields were horrific every winter, but every spring, with harrowing and rolling the fields came back absolutely fine.

Mine are turfed out every day through rain, freezing conditions, snow etc and I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## 9tails (15 August 2011)

Overdramatic, GingerCat.  

I wouldn't have my horse PTS because there was no winter turnout, nobody is saying so, but I wouldn't ever be on your yard.  Nor would I sell, I would move.


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## Syrah (15 August 2011)

GingerCat said:



			All of you who are quick to codemn the keeping of horses with no winter turnout, I wonder how many of you would actually put your money where you mouth was if you were suddenly unable to turnout and you couldn't find a yard that could provide winter turnout.
Would you decide to sell your horses?
I doubt it 

It's really annoyed me how some of you have the nerve to codemn those of us who's horses don't have access to turnout 24/7.
 I've been on yards with winter turnout, although they are few and far between in my area. The fields tended to become bare and very muddy in a short time. The horses looked wet and miserable a lot of the time, just hanging round the gate waiting to come in or squabbling amongst themselves.

The yard I'm on now has great facilities, but unfortunately no winter turnout into the fields. Over winter we can turnout in an outdoor arena daily, or an indoor one if it's not being used for riding..so our horses do get to socialise in small groups

One of my horses has just gone out after being on 6 months boxrest, perhaps I should just have had him PTS to save him from the trauma of an 'un-natural' environment! 

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Crikey, very dramatic.

I certainly wasn't condeming anyone.  For me, no winter turnout is unacceptable.  If my yard were to stop winter turnout, I'd move.  I wouldn't have to sell as there are plenty of yards around here that offer all year turnout.

If a horse is on boxrest, that is for a reason generally medical and in the best interests of the horse.

If your horses are happy and you are with no winter turnout, that's great.  But for my mare, she would turn pyscho without turnout so it isn't an option I would consider.


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## BorgRae (15 August 2011)

9tails said:



			I wouldn't ever be on your yard.  Nor would I sell, I would move.
		
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But what if there wasn't a yard within a 30-40 mile radius with winter turnout. Would you do an 80 mile round trip to see your horse every day?

Not ideal I know, and I would LOVE winter turnout, but I have tried to find the best solution in that they have somewhere to go out in winter (a sand paddock or the indoor school). Other than that, I can't afford to travel that far every day. I already do a 30 mile round trip. Sometimes we just have to live with what we've got


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## GingerCat (15 August 2011)

millitiger said:



			I would never keep my horses at a yard with no turnout..
		
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So if you couldn't find a yard that didn't offer turnout, you wouldn't keep horses then?



Syrah said:



			Crikey, very dramatic.
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Not dramatic...bloody annoyed! Some of you lot are so sanctimonius


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## ILuvCowparsely (15 August 2011)

I can understand  wanting to keep the grazing good. Our fields cope well with the horses going out . We use the barrow for the fields instead of tractor to save churning it   and gate ways fair up better than you would expect.

 We turn out every day except xmas day ( to enable me to go to my parents for lunch in East Anglia )
New Years day so we  can have an easy day. 

 Apart from that we keep them in a max of 3 other times ( last year was only the 2 main days ) . To enable  rugs to dry and horses to get away from rain. And we choose a week where it rains 24 7   we choose say the Wed. 

 More often than not horses stay in a max of 4 days a year.

  We do part livery and DIY assisted only . Our fields always gets rested to recover and are well maintained  in spring to enable good recovery from the winter. Our fields cope with horses going out from 7am to 3pm turn out . I think that's fair enough.

 That said sometimes I go to back yard and all horses hanging round the gate at 1pm ( if ****** weather) so I take feeds out and bring them in.





BorgRae said:



			But what if there wasn't a yard within a 30-40 mile radius with winter turnout. Would you do an 80 mile round trip to see your horse every day?



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 I used to do over 50 miles  round trip every day to see my horse  . My friend did morning trip   and I did eve so only had to do it 1 x a day.I lived in London horse was in Wexham   as no facilities in London where I lived.  I would rather travel further and have good Facilities, than have them on doorstep and nothing


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## Enfys (15 August 2011)

Enfys said:



			If I had to Board my horses now I wouldn't even *consider* a yard where there was compulsory stabling,

.
		
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...and that would be because I cannot be bothered to muck out and clock watch anymore (my horses fit around my life, not me around theirs)  *not* because I had to keep them in.

I know very many horses (and I have had a couple myself) that are complete couch potatoes and were perfectly content to stay in, one used to flatly refuse to leave his stall if it was raining.

I wouldn't ever condemn a yard that had turnout restrictions, at the end of the day, it is the horse owners choice whether to be there or not. If you aren't happy, and your horse isn't happy, then vote with your feet and go someplace else.

Sometimes, I read all sorts of complaints on here and feel like saying "Well, hey! How about *you* doing it then?"  Moans about prices, forage, fencing, facilities blah, blah, blah really annoy me...what is sometimes forgotten is all the work that goes into maintaining a property, machinery (I have just paid $2000 for equipment that will benefit owners and horses)  the sheer cost of fencing, power, rates, insurance etc. On the whole, the majority of YO's do care and try their best, very many Owners are lovely too, but life isn't perfect and compromises often have to be made.


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## Syrah (15 August 2011)

GingerCat said:



			So if you couldn't find a yard that didn't offer turnout, you wouldn't keep horses then?



Not dramatic...bloody annoyed! Some of you lot are so sanctimonius
		
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Why is it sanctimonius to state that no winter turnout is unacceptable?


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## millitiger (15 August 2011)

GingerCat said:



			So if you couldn't find a yard that didn't offer turnout, you wouldn't keep horses then?
Not dramatic...bloody annoyed! Some of you lot are so sanctimonius
		
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If I absolutely could not find a yard with winter turnout, then yes, I would not have horses.

However, I cannot imagine not being able to find a single place where your horse can have some field time in winter.

I have kept mine at yards 40 minutes from home, in the opposite direction to work... I have kept them at a farm with zero facilities and not been able to ride from November- March because there was no school or lights.

If there is a will, there is a way and if you want your horse to have winter turnout you can find it- but you may have to give up other advantages in it's place.

You may also have to look outside the box and ask around at farms etc instead of 'yards', you may have to widen your location criteria more than you want, but I think if you wanted it enough, you could find a place with winter turnout.

I don't think it makes me sanctimonious at all- just that I place turnout at the very top of my priority list when looking at yards.

I understand not everyone feels that strongly about winter turnout and that's fine- but the OP asked for opinions and I gave mine


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## Wagtail (15 August 2011)

I think no turnout at all is intolerable. However, I also think that muddy fields are not a healthy environment for horses, either in terms of them suffering mudfever and discomfort, or in terms of the danger these fields pose to horses. I have a special all weather turnout arena (separate to the riding arena) where horses go out whenever the fields are deemed unsafe. However, they only go out for around 4 hours a day in the middle of winter, with haylage nets. Both horses and owners seem very happy with this arrangement.


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## LouandBee (15 August 2011)

It wasn't until I was looking to buy a horse and visiting lots of different yards that I realised how many people keep there horses in all winter. Unacceptable in my opinion.

I remember one yard (which was running a SJ competition when I arrived) that had about 20 wooden boxes round the back and no turnout. The horses were being deep littered on straw which was just gross and one poor pony couldn't even see over his door. Then there was another which had no turnout at all (even in summer) and the owners wondered why the horse  was getting too hot to handle

Any how - I bought my horse in spring and kept it at a lovely yard which had 24/7 summer turnout, then as soon as the clocks changed the all year turnout soon turned out to be..... as long as it wasn't raining, then as long as it wasn't raining and until 11 a.m only, then as long as my horse didn't run around! What a joke!

So I soon moved and we now have all year turnout, the only condition being that they have to come in overnight from end of Nov to beginning May - not the prettiest of yards but fab!


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## Honey08 (15 August 2011)

Yes rolling and harrowing does bring back a clay field - if you can rest that field all summer.  Thats what we do now.  Our 3 go out on one two acre field (mudrash permitting) or an area that is hardstanding grassed over in winter, and then that is rested all summer for the next winter and the horses go onto another field.  When we had DIYs, we needed more winter turnout, and it took more recovering, plus the summer fields got wrecked too, as we had some very wet summers, so gradually the fields declined. That was with 6 horses on 20 acres.  Our main hayfield that we had to sacrifice to livery grazing has only just come back to being good enough for hay two years after the liveries left.  

It all costs money, which when you have to do it more often, overtakes what you make from any DIYs, so I can understand why people limit it.


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## GingerCat (15 August 2011)

Syrah said:



			Why is it sanctimonius to state that no winter turnout is unacceptable?
		
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Merely because it's so easy to codemn this way of keeping horses when you have other options..not everyone has that choice.
Several posters have stated that they wouldn't accept this....So I ask *again*, would they then give up their horses if they couldn't have winter turnout? Moving yards *not* being an option.


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## ILuvCowparsely (15 August 2011)

I think round here  the only ones who don't turn horses out are mega posh places where their horses are worth zillions and don't want injuries.  counting from the top of my head  6 yards within 1 mile from me all do turnout how ever long I wouldn't know. 

I guess our soil is good drainage and recovers well . 

 I haven't boarded since 1996 the only place where I have ever not seen any horses turned out is at ****** equestrian centre as they had no grazing due to their location.  They did how ever in the end rent 2 acres from a house an a few horses from riding school had an odd week theri but 80% did not go their and liveries didn't.


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## ladyt25 (15 August 2011)

In all honesty, I don't think people should open livery yards if they don't have enough space to enable horses to have access to turnout all year round. Surely it's about having enough space for the amount of horses you intend to have (ie not being greedy and taking on far too many horses because of the £££s you have coming in but actually don't have the turnout space for them!). 

We have our own field which i know we are very lucky to have but we bought it many years ago (couldn't afford to buy it now!) but there are a couple of neighbouring livery yards, one small DIY and one much larger yard that is a mix of DIY and part/full livery. The larger yard is just run by a farmer and his wife (with the help of a few of the clients I guess) and they turnout ALL year round. The wife is up and stupid o'clock in the morning mucking out, feeding and turning out. I think the horses all go out from about 7am although they will come in before it's dark in the winter (so before 3pm). They seem to be able to do fine rotating the fields, putting various livestock on the paddocks as well and they also make their own hay and haylage etc. It's a big farm but not HUGE compared to some but it is very well managed.

The DIY yard is run by those who have their own horses their - I'd say a good 10 to 15 horses, possibly about 8 acres or so and yet they too get T/O all throughout the year and their paddocks are in a decent state.

I think it's very depressing to keep a horse in a 12 x 12 stable for months withit's only exercise being on a horsewalker, in an arena or being ridden. I just don't agree with it. Of course there are instances where a horse may NEED to be kept in a stable for a sustained period but I can't believe anyone thinks it's OK for this to be standard. A horse needs freedom, it needs to interact with other horses and well, be allowed to be a horse! God, i can't think of anything more mind-numbingly boring that going round and round in circles on a horsewalker. I would never put my horse on one of those - I'd get my lazy a*se in gear and take it for a blooming walk if that's all it could do!


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## Syrah (15 August 2011)

GingerCat said:



			Merely because it's so easy to codemn this way of keeping horses when you have other options..not everyone has that choice.
Several posters have stated that they wouldn't accept this....So I ask *again*, would they then give up their horses if they couldn't have winter turnout? Moving yards *not* being an option.
		
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Yes I would.  I would make sure she went to a home capable of giving her the turnout she needs.

Also I wouldn't buy a horse if I couldn't have all year turnout.

I understand that some don't have a choice with turnout and it's their choice to accept that.  It's my choice not to accept it.

I would consider limited winter turnout, a few hours a day, but no winter turnout is not acceptable.


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## wellsat (15 August 2011)

Honey08 said:



			I hate horses being in too, but its very easy to condemn yards for over population and bad management, and unless you have run a yard you can't really comment.  Its also easy to say that fields wouldn't churn up when you are on good draining soil - if you are on clay, like us, you are basically living in the bottom of a big pond!  Its also easy to say that gates and fields should have hardcore/concrete paths - try getting it past the planning dept round here...
		
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We have clay soils, you could make pots out of what we dig up in our garden but we still get winter turnout.


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## GingerCat (15 August 2011)

Syrah said:



			Yes I would.  I would make sure she went to a home capable of giving her the turnout she needs.

Also I wouldn't buy a horse if I couldn't have all year turnout.

I understand that some don't have a choice with turnout and it's their choice to accept that.  It's my choice not to accept it..
		
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## Syrah (15 August 2011)

Gingercat, I thought we were having a reasoned conversation, obviously not.

It's what I would do, like it or not.

Your last reply was extremely childish.


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## kittykatcat (15 August 2011)

Fortunately, this barbaric practice is not common place near me  (East Kent). I own a yard and I insist all horses go out each day (I, infact asked someone to leave the yard because their horse only went out 'on a Monday'). The only time they may not go out in to their proper fields is if the land is completely water logged (it happened about 10 days in total last winter). Even then we have a 'trash paddock' and a school. 

I am sorry, but speaking from a livery owners point of view, if you can't offer any form of winter turnout, then the land isn't being managed very well. I have turned away about 20 horses this year for grass livery, yes I could have taken them on in the spring/summer, but I know that come the winter, there won't be enough grazing and everyone will suffer. Yes, I had to say goodbye to the extra pennies, but IMO it is worth it to maintain good winter grazing.

I don't understand why the RSPCA/BHS etc. don't insist on some sort of turnout. One of the RSPCA's 'five freedoms' is freedoms to express natural behaviour. Well this isn't going to happen in a 12 x 12 (or smaller!) box...or with individual turnout (but that is for another rant!!).

If someone kept a dog in a cage 24/7, only letting it out every other day for 20 minutes, leaving it to stand in it's own excrement all day and all night long, i'm sure the RSPCA would have something to say. but it's ok for horses as they're in 'a stable'.... ahhh I see!


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## MerrySherryRider (15 August 2011)

GingerCat said:



			Merely because it's so easy to codemn this way of keeping horses when you have other options..not everyone has that choice.
Several posters have stated that they wouldn't accept this....So I ask *again*, would they then give up their horses if they couldn't have winter turnout? Moving yards *not* being an option.
		
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YES. I did seriously consider selling mine. I felt that if I couldn't provide an acceptable environment to keep them mentally well and healthy, I wouldn't keep them. I had a friend with grazing a 100 miles away and considered sending them there for the winter, but finally found them 5 acres and built stables, put in water and electric fencing. 3 months later, the owner thought it was so wonderful that she bought 2 horses and repeatedly left the field gates open, so we moved.
Back the next winter to very restricted turnout, I and other owners, would spend every available hour at the yard getting the horses out. We simply had no life.
 So again, left great facilities to go to grass livery (with stables) but only a grass school for summer use. 
Yes, I would love an all year school and all the facilities I left behind, but, for me, the freedom for mine to move, graze and socialise and breathe fresh air is a priority.


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## ladyt25 (15 August 2011)

GingerCat said:



			Merely because it's so easy to codemn this way of keeping horses when you have other options..not everyone has that choice.
Several posters have stated that they wouldn't accept this....So I ask *again*, would they then give up their horses if they couldn't have winter turnout? Moving yards *not* being an option.
		
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But surely, if you were considering buying a horse do you not look in to what yards are available in your area first and what facilities they had? Surely you would, it'd be very stupid to buy a horse and not know where you're intending on keeping it first?!

I wouldn't buy a horse if their was nowhere near me where I could keep it and it be allowed T/O. I'd look at other options if all livery yards were that cr*p - like approaching farmers and other landowners with the possibility of renting someland myself! 

However, I still don't get why anyone would open a livery yard of that was going to be their policy. I don't see how anyone can feel it's acceptable. mind you, I guess some people just see a horse as a machine or commodity and don't see it as a living, breathing animal!


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## ILuvCowparsely (15 August 2011)

ladyt25 said:



			In all honesty, I don't think people should open livery yards if they don't have enough space to enable horses to have access to turnout all year round. Surely it's about having enough space for the amount of horses you intend to have (ie not being greedy and taking on far too many horses because of the £££s you have coming in but actually don't have the turnout space for them!).
		
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			I don't understand why the RSPCA/BHS etc. don't insist on some sort of turnout
		
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 Well in that case what do you think of Kingston Riding Centre they  are in London have no turn out but they have Richmond park on the door step!!
http://www.kingstonridingcentre.com/


  What about Stag Lodge  they also have No turn out 
http://www.ridinginlondon.com/
 I used to work there  and no turn out but 15 steps you had the whole of Richmond Park.


 What about Wimbledon Village

http://www.wvstables.com/  they have no turnout
 What I am saying is sometimes its not about greed or too many horses  when horses are cannot be turned out.


 We actually stable more horses than the ground should cope with .

 But we 
 a.)  can get 250 bales of hay ( if we choose )  
 b) horses are turned out   all but a max of 5 days a year. we spend £ 1000 on the land in the way of feeding it and caring for it , and the land repays us in feeding our horses.


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## pottamus (15 August 2011)

I looked at yards in my area when I got my boy, knowing full well he would go bonkers if kept in a stable for too long...so needed turnout. They all had restrictions in winter, or could not commit to letting me know the situation for tunout in winter or had lush ex-cow pastures...all totally un-suitable for my lad. 
So I knocked on doors, begged and pleaded and managed to rent a field from a farmer down the road from me where I can do what I want with it, when I want. 
I have absolutely no facilities other than a mobile stable I paid for myself...no mains water, no electricity, no riding area in winter as we are straight out onto roads, no lights, no drying area, no concrete yard...nothing. But my lad is out every single day of the year on well managed grazing with no mud at all and freedom to wander about and graze for 12 hours a day come rain, hail, 4 foot snow or anything else the weather throws at us. He is happy, I am happy and that suits us...even though I put more work and money of my own into the field in order to manage the lack of facilities. 
No turnout at any time other than for injury just is not an option for my horse.


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## 4faults (15 August 2011)

My horses rarely get turned out over winter through YO choice not mine. I have tried other yards and they are just not as happy there.

I will not be moving yards again because my horses are happy, healthy and fit were they are.

God you lot would hate the yard I used to work on were our broodies and babies were brought in our winter and kept in pens together and put on the horsewalker twice a day.


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## TheresaW (15 August 2011)

I am in Essex and we have horrible clay!  We have 24/7 turnout all summer, and out for the day, in at night for the winter.  Our fields are not rotated, but seem to cope really well.  The gateways get a bit boggy in the winter, but as they start to dry out, are rolled and recover well.

We are not allowed to put hay in the fields, not sure if this has any impact or not.

Last winter, when we had weeks of constant rain, I did choose to only turn mine out every other day, but that is because the horses didn't want to be out in it.


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## ladyt25 (15 August 2011)

Leviathan said:



			Well in that case what do you think of Kingston Riding Centre they  are in London have no turn out but they have Richmond park on the door step!!
http://www.kingstonridingcentre.com/


What about Stag Lodge  they also have No turn out 
http://www.ridinginlondon.com/
 I used to work there  and no turn out but 15 steps you had the whole of Richmond Park.


What about Wimbledon Village

http://www.wvstables.com/  they have no turnout
 What I am saying is sometimes its not about greed or too many horses  when horses are cannot be turned out.QUOTE]

That's all good and well but is it right? Should they keep horses in those sorts of environments where they don't get to have any freedom? I imagine a fair few police horse stables etc might not have T/O either - doesn't mean it's acceptable.
		
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## GingerCat (15 August 2011)

Syrah said:



			Gingercat, I thought we were having a reasoned conversation, obviously not.

It's what I would do, like it or not.

Your last reply was extremely childish.
		
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Yes it was, and I apologise


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## ilvpippa (15 August 2011)

Ours are on a day to day winter livery, depending on weather. They dont go out if its too wet, i.e, raining all day/night. They can go out for an hour in snow, hopefully mine can go out for an hour most days.

Mine would hate to be out allday in awful weather, as long as she goes out for an hour, she is more than happy & often is dragging me back to her stable. She gets ridden everyday & has turn out/play time in an indoor school


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## SillyFilly (15 August 2011)

I'm in Blackpool to, so can vouch for the definite lack of winter turnout anywhere within reasonable distance...really rare to find anywhere to accommodate....which is sad. Theres been more and more building over the years and space is becoming less and less.

I know of afew yards in my local area that offer no turn out AT ALL, other than sand paddock while mucking out ect......year round.

So we make the best of a less than perfect situation and commit to put in 'extra hours' in the winter months, and look forward to April/March with much excitement!! My yard has more turnout than most in the area, however restrictions apply in winter


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## BorgRae (15 August 2011)

SillyFilly said:



			I'm in Blackpool to, so can vouch for the definite lack of winter turnout anywhere within reasonable distance...really rare to find anywhere to accommodate....which is sad. Theres been more and more building over the years and space is becoming less and less.

I know of afew yards in my local area that offer no turn out AT ALL, other than sand paddock while mucking out ect......year round.

So we make the best of a less than perfect situation and commit to put in 'extra hours' in the winter months, and look forward to April/March with much excitement!! My yard has more turnout than most in the area, however restrictions apply in winter

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Hi there fello Blackpool lass!!!! Where abouts are you stabled?! I've really struggled to find anywhere and am moving to Wrea Green this weekend with the hope of more turnout!


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## Slinkyunicorn (15 August 2011)

I am another one who would not consider keeping my horses at a yard with no winter turnout One of mine came from a dressage competion yard where he had lived from 1 year - 10 and had limited turnout especially after he had been backed. The resul was a horse how was not only sour in the school but one that cribbed and windsucked. After 3 years of year round turnout he is a happier horse and rarely cribs or windsucks anymore (I did also treat him ofr ulcers and now manage him for them).

Our yard has year round turnout and the YO leaves it up to us to decide when we bring our horses in. I try and keep mine out 24/7 for as long a possible - usually Nov/Dec - and they go out again 24/7 asap - as soon as the fields are dry enough so they last 2 years apart from being cold they have been out 24/7 from February. I have one cob and a WB but my nieces TB also keeps the same routine and has never looked better - he is an ex racer who also came from a yard with little or nio turnout over winter and looked 'dusty' when he came to us - is definitely a better horse for the turnout.

The YO - who is also a farmer - take the view that the grass will grow back no matter how trashed and muddy the fields get, they are harrowed and rolled and generally very well maintained. I have been there 10 years now and despite some very wet winters and some very cold ones the grazing is still as good as ever.


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## SillyFilly (15 August 2011)

BorgRae said:



			Hi there fello Blackpool lass!!!! Where abouts are you stabled?! I've really struggled to find anywhere and am moving to Wrea Green this weekend with the hope of more turnout!
		
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Hi there,lol!!

I'm on the moss...not that it looks like moss anymore!! Nr Midgeland Rd.... Summer turn out is good and 24/7...yard is not pristine and facilities are there, but basic I suppose, however my girl is happy there...and its 5 mins from home. I know of a lovely yard (Singleton) my friend has it....but I cant do the distance...not enough hours in the day.....although filly is going back up there this week for breaking.

They are hoping to be able to provide winter turnout from this winter, but it will be dependant on how the land copes as to whether they can offer this as a permanent fixture....Its sooooo difficult to land a 'perfect' yard....I reckon they dont exist...not round here anyhow!!


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## MissMistletoe (15 August 2011)

kittykatcat said:



			If someone kept a dog in a cage 24/7, only letting it out every other day for 20 minutes, leaving it to stand in it's own excrement all day and all night long, i'm sure the RSPCA would have something to say. but it's ok for horses as they're in 'a stable'.... ahhh I see!
		
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Interesting thought. Also, my friend once said that the idea of keeping a hamster in a small margarine tub with a 'window' cut out and being allowed a quick wizz on it's wheel for 20 minutes wouldnt go down very well with animal welfare. It's pretty much the same size wise for a horse in an average stable.

What makes it worse, is that horses are designed to travel 20+ miles a day.

In the old days, horses were kept stabled all the time, but this was because they were kept in cities to provide a transport service, were fed and watered on route. At least they were true working horses that would travel many miles to use up their pent up energy. 

Modern day typical DIY leisure horses are far away from those old faithful work horses of the past!


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## DifficultMare (15 August 2011)

I am lucky enough to be on a yard where we are allowed to turn out in  winter - my horse has her own paddock and I look after it, ie pooh-picking etc.  However - much as I would love my horse to go out every day winter/summer and all the times in-between, she just will not have it, if the weather is not to her liking she will spend the day galloping up and down and/or just standing by the gate to come in.  Yes the galloping about does wreck the ground but I've never had a problem of the grass not coming back - and since she is out there as she's such a good doer, if there was slightly less grass it wouldn't be a problem.  So, much as I totally agree that ideally and in theory all horses would be turned out every day if not live out, sometimes this just doesn't work.  Having injured herself last November because she didn't want to be out, and as she is currently recovering from a sprained check ligament - again caused on a wet day when she didn't want to be out, I'm planning her work schedules on probably having her in once it starts to get too wet.  We are lucky enough to have a walker and a flood-lit school and I'm also lucky enought that I'm allowed to let her loose in the school once a week or so to really let off steam!


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## ILuvCowparsely (15 August 2011)

That's all good and well but is it right? Should they keep horses in those sorts of environments where they don't get to have any freedom? I imagine a fair few police horse stables etc might not have T/O either - doesn't mean it's acceptable.
		
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__________________

 Might  not be acceptable  but at stag lodge  all the horses were happy ,  they had nice stables good food  and went out on at least 3 hacks a day then over to Wimbledon common for lesson. Its the life they lead  its all they ever knew   they get used to it. London is not blessed  with rolling  green fields . i know some professionals in a yard round here who never turn their horses  out, we joke when we see them and say horses all have bent necks due to they being in the school all the time.


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## BorgRae (15 August 2011)

SillyFilly said:



			Hi there,lol!!

I'm on the moss...not that it looks like moss anymore!! Nr Midgeland Rd.... Summer turn out is good and 24/7...yard is not pristine and facilities are there, but basic I suppose, however my girl is happy there...and its 5 mins from home. I know of a lovely yard (Singleton) my friend has it....but I cant do the distance...not enough hours in the day.....although filly is going back up there this week for breaking.

They are hoping to be able to provide winter turnout from this winter, but it will be dependant on how the land copes as to whether they can offer this as a permanent fixture....Its sooooo difficult to land a 'perfect' yard....I reckon they dont exist...not round here anyhow!!

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Tell me about it!! I used to stable near the moss 4 years ago, I live in Blackpool South, so it was close to home, only a couple of miles, but very limited Summer turnout and no winter turnout.

I moved to a yard in St. Micheals as the facilities are to die for (although 35 mins of travel each way every day not so nice!)!! But Summer turnout has become an issue there anyway, so am now moving to Wrea Green. They say they have Summer and winter turnout, but we'll see when winter hits! The facilities are good, and is only 10 miles away  Maybe this is the near "perfect" yard... We'll see!!! 

...Singleton sounds interesting


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## SillyFilly (15 August 2011)

BorgRae said:



			Tell me about it!! I used to stable near the moss 4 years ago, I live in Blackpool South, so it was close to home, only a couple of miles, but very limited Summer turnout and no winter turnout.

I moved to a yard in St. Micheals as the facilities are to die for (although 35 mins of travel each way every day not so nice!)!! But Summer turnout has become an issue there anyway, so am now moving to Wrea Green. They say they have Summer and winter turnout, but we'll see when winter hits! The facilities are good, and is only 10 miles away  Maybe this is the near "perfect" yard... We'll see!!! 

...Singleton sounds interesting 

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Good luck with your move....false promises are worse than no promise at all imo!! Yes, will be interested to see what happens in winter in Singleton...we were galloping around in the snow last year,lol.x.


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## BorgRae (15 August 2011)

SillyFilly said:



			Good luck with your move....false promises are worse than no promise at all imo!! Yes, will be interested to see what happens in winter in Singleton...we were galloping around in the snow last year,lol.x.

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Thank you!! And good luck with breaking your filly!!! Hope all goes well! 

I hope Singleton works out well... You never know, we may actually cross paths in the future!!


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## rubysmum (15 August 2011)

i feel so strongly about winter turnout that now do a 40 mile round trip every day [ obs on top of full time work & children] as have finally found the rare as hens teeth yard - all yr 24/7365 turnout, stabling, assisted DIY & an indoor school - my big veteran arthritic mare could simply not cope with being stabled for months at a time


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## team barney (15 August 2011)

kittykatcat said:



			Fortunately, this barbaric practice is not common place near me  (East Kent). I own a yard and I insist all horses go out each day (I, infact asked someone to leave the yard because their horse only went out 'on a Monday'). The only time they may not go out in to their proper fields is if the land is completely water logged (it happened about 10 days in total last winter). Even then we have a 'trash paddock' and a school. 

I am sorry, but speaking from a livery owners point of view, if you can't offer any form of winter turnout, then the land isn't being managed very well. I have turned away about 20 horses this year for grass livery, yes I could have taken them on in the spring/summer, but I know that come the winter, there won't be enough grazing and everyone will suffer. Yes, I had to say goodbye to the extra pennies, but IMO it is worth it to maintain good winter grazing.

I don't understand why the RSPCA/BHS etc. don't insist on some sort of turnout. One of the RSPCA's 'five freedoms' is freedoms to express natural behaviour. Well this isn't going to happen in a 12 x 12 (or smaller!) box...or with individual turnout (but that is for another rant!!).

If someone kept a dog in a cage 24/7, only letting it out every other day for 20 minutes, leaving it to stand in it's own excrement all day and all night long, i'm sure the RSPCA would have something to say. but it's ok for horses as they're in 'a stable'.... ahhh I see!
		
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^^^ This ^^^

Horses aren't afraid of a little mud, if they appear to dislike turnout 99% of the time it is conditioning from an unnatural upbringing.  

Standing by the gate when it is raining often says more about management than temperament as horses that behave like this have usually been tucked up in their stables when a hint of rain comes so they are conditioned to wait by the gate when it starts to drizzle in anticipation of their usual routine.

I have known horses who appeared to hate turnout, who couldn't understand the process of freedom to do as they will.  With time everyone of those horse learnt that fields weren't scary places and they were turned out with no issues.

People project their own desires for dry and warmth on to horses far to often and as a result their animals are kept in entirely unnatural environs.

The hamster analogy is perfect.


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## Shutterbug (15 August 2011)

No turnout, no stay is my policy - I would never have my horse on a yard that did not allow all year turnout, its too important. I left my last yard because I had to fight tooth and mail for every hour of turnout my horse got last winter - I have a feeling she will now not allow any winter turnout this year because they whinged that we wrecked a 10 acre field by insisting that our 4 horses were turnout out for the winter - they got about 2-3 hours a day. We all left the yard because of it, and that was 3 liveries with 4 horses


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## ILuvCowparsely (15 August 2011)

team barney said:



			^^^ This ^^^


Standing by the gate when it is raining often says more about management than temperament
		
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 Are you generalizing or are you saying all of us who bring horses in an hour or 2 earlier because its torrential rain and they are standing by the gate,  accusing us of practicing bad management  ??


 Because  I disagree with this  ,If my liveries  stand by the gate around  2 pm  its only an hour off coming in time( when clocks go back) and its because they have had enough of being outside, I for one  will let them come in if they want too . 3 of these who want to come in are 29  -23 and 22



			have usually been tucked up in their stables when a hint of rain comes so they are conditioned to wait by the gate when it starts to drizzle in anticipation of their usual routine.
		
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 Non of mine are tucked up if any drizzle  even if heavy rain they go out  at 7am so by the time 2-3pm comes round they have been in the rain  7 or 8 hours.


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## appyowner (15 August 2011)

I am lucky enough after years of having horses in livery to now have my own land.  One yard we kept the horses on stated all liveries with stables had to keep their horses in  overnight from 01 September, irrespective of the weather.  There were some days in the winter when they had to stay in 24/7.  Turnout in the spring was weather dependant and one year the horses couldn't go out until June.  Now, I can do as I please and they are all turned out everyday in the winter, out at 6.30am and in at about 4.00pm.  They wear rugs relevant to the weather and are kept in one paddock until spring.  Yes it gets trashed, they get filthy and I have to put haylage in the field to keep them amused.  But that said they are healthy happy horses, ready to go out in the morning and ready to come in at night.  And the paddock...come spring it looks like a ploughed field but rested it bounces back and has already been grazed down twice. It's nearly ready to be shut down again for the winter months to start all over again.  Lack of winter grazing in my opinion means too many horses on the land.


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## Solo1 (15 August 2011)

We have separate winter and summer paddocks - so winter paddocks are just allowed to get absolutely trashed and then are rolled, harrowed and sprayed in Spring to grow all summer, ready for winter again. Yes, they get muddy around gateways (do have crush and run down immediately around gateways but before that it gets muddy) and yes, there's big ruts because we're on clay. When it freezes and snows I keep TB on sand paddock as he's on loan and I have horrid visions of him getting his leg in a frozen rut whilst he has a hooly... Yes horses come in splattered with mud, yes there's more frequently the odd scuffle as they're in a smaller space with less food, but they're absolutely fine. YO can be a bit funny about hay going out but we just hide it, put loads of piles out all spread around and everyone's happy! 

IMO I wouldn't rule out a yard with no winter turn-out. However I would want there to be a substiture, for at least 6 hours a day. But I personally couldn't do it. If I didn't have to go to school and could graze them in hand, lunge, ride, observe turnout etc, I would, but that's just not possible and for now I count my lucky stars I have what I do!


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## DifficultMare (15 August 2011)

team barney said:



			^^^ This ^^^

Horses aren't afraid of a little mud, if they appear to dislike turnout 99% of the time it is conditioning from an unnatural upbringing.  

Standing by the gate when it is raining often says more about management than temperament as horses that behave like this have usually been tucked up in their stables when a hint of rain comes so they are conditioned to wait by the gate when it starts to drizzle in anticipation of their usual routine.

I have known horses who appeared to hate turnout, who couldn't understand the process of freedom to do as they will.  With time everyone of those horse learnt that fields weren't scary places and they were turned out with no issues.

People project their own desires for dry and warmth on to horses far to often and as a result their animals are kept in entirely unnatural environs.

The hamster analogy is perfect.
		
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My horse lived out until she was nearly five in all winds and weathers - they did have the option of a barn if they wanted, and she did often go inside.  I had to have a stable for her in the end as she started to get mud-fever very severely - not sure why as nothing had changed.  I would still much rather she stayed out and if there is going to be someone at the yard during the morning I will put her out when I'm there early and then she can come in a few hours later rather than being left for 10-12 hours.  But, after the past couple of years with all the injuries she has sustained I'm no longer prepared to risk her safety.  She's now 15 years old and has certainly never been molly-coddled, but if she's preferring to be in rather than out that's where she will be.  When she is stabled she has 30-40 mins on the walker in the morning and is then ridden/lunged/goes back on the walker in the evening.  At the weekends she is hacked out and at least once a week is allowed to vent off in the school.  She seems to be perfectly happy with this, although it is obviously far more work and expense for me I would much rather this than end up with her out of work for another 5 months with injuries. 

As I said before, in an ideal world I would much rather she was out all day every day but if it's a choice between her freedom or keeping her in one piece I'm afraid these days I'm opting for keeping her in one piece.


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## Naryafluffy (15 August 2011)

wellsat said:



			Even in the snow last year they still went out every single day.
		
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Would have to say that last year after a neighbouring yard had 3 horses PTS because they broke legs in the snow ours stopped going out in the snow and were turned out 2/3 at a time in the indoor school for a couple of hours with several haynets hung up all over (so that there wasn't any fighting over haynets), to be fair last year the snow also drifted up where we are and my mare took one look at 5ft snow drifts and stopped at the exit of the barn.


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## madlady (15 August 2011)

I'm not on a livery yard and I still don't have proper grazing turnout for mine - purely because nobody in the vicinity will rent out grazing for horses over the winter months because they don't want their fields 'trashing'

So until my fund to buy some land is big enough I compromise - I have an outdoor paddock attached to my stables which is a reasonable size, I have put good drains in and mine go out in there with lots of haynets put up round the sides - I have 4 to turn out and the paddock is plenty big enough for them to stretch their legs, get some fresh air and be sociable.

Hopefully I'll only be making do with this solution for another year when fingers crossed I will be able to buy my own land.


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## Naryafluffy (15 August 2011)

team barney said:



			^^^ This ^^^

Horses aren't afraid of a little mud, if they appear to dislike turnout 99% of the time it is conditioning from an unnatural upbringing.  

Standing by the gate when it is raining often says more about management than temperament as horses that behave like this have usually been tucked up in their stables when a hint of rain comes so they are conditioned to wait by the gate when it starts to drizzle in anticipation of their usual routine.

I have known horses who appeared to hate turnout, who couldn't understand the process of freedom to do as they will.  With time everyone of those horse learnt that fields weren't scary places and they were turned out with no issues.

People project their own desires for dry and warmth on to horses far to often and as a result their animals are kept in entirely unnatural environs.

The hamster analogy is perfect.
		
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What about horses that let themselves in, we have 2 mares that in winter time will basically break the fence post that the gate is attached to and let themselves in, they are quite happy to stay out in summer time in the rain (and trust me in Scotland we get plenty of rain in the summer, has finally stopped raining after raining for almost 3 days straight). What are they expected to do in 5ft snow drifts where they can't get any grass, we have them in a field so they can't wander for miles to find grazing (can this be seen as not allowing freedom to express natural behaviour). My friend also has a horse that is the opposite it won't go out in summer, it will run through fences to get in, little black lusitano stallion, came over from spain with no hair on it because it had rub itself raw because of an allergy to lemon flies, now associates midgies with this and goes bananas, which is more cruel a horse that is happy to be in away from flies/having something to eat, or horses that throw themselves through fences and damage themselves, know which one I think.


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## Flame_ (15 August 2011)

My early horsey years were spent on yards with no winter turnout. I used to think Flame was bonkers, but she was just stir crazy at being shut in. It is absolutely not acceptable to shut in horses 24/7 and if you are in an area where it is the norm, think about traveling further from home to somewhere your horse will be happy. 

Limited turnout is an acceptable compromise, IMO. If conditions are such that the horse gets plenty of work, than an hour in an arena just mooching around and letting off steam is all it takes to keep horses sane. In the winter though, with its frozen surfaces, flooded roads and boggy tracks, horse exercise is often much safer to horses and would be riders, if it is done by just letting horses mooch regularly around fields, than trying to keep everything in regular work.

Actually restricting the horses' opportunity to let rip and feel free for weeks or months at a time is asking for a stressed horse with stable vices, rider and handler injuries from dealing with ready to explode horses, horse ailments from the lack of movement and stale environment, and then horse injuries when they finally are let loose and they go ape.


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## hannahmurphy (15 August 2011)

Sorry, horses should live as horses intended. It's against nature to lock them in a box for X months. If there's not enough land for them to be out in the winter than a serious look at numbers is need, ie cutting them down.


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## leflynn (15 August 2011)

team barney said:



			^^^ This ^^^

Horses aren't afraid of a little mud, if they appear to dislike turnout 99% of the time it is conditioning from an unnatural upbringing.  

Standing by the gate when it is raining often says more about management than temperament as horses that behave like this have usually been tucked up in their stables when a hint of rain comes so they are conditioned to wait by the gate when it starts to drizzle in anticipation of their usual routine.

I have known horses who appeared to hate turnout, who couldn't understand the process of freedom to do as they will.  With time everyone of those horse learnt that fields weren't scary places and they were turned out with no issues.

People project their own desires for dry and warmth on to horses far to often and as a result their animals are kept in entirely unnatural environs.

The hamster analogy is perfect.
		
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I tried projecting full time or even part time turn out on my horse with no such luck, so although I have winter turnout during the day I doubt he'll be out for anymore than an hour or two as it seems it stresses him and is detrimental to his his health even in the summer and also by agreement with my vet - guess it's horses for courses 

Breeding and conditioning over the years have evolved the horse from what it was hundreds of years ago and I guess you have to accept that what some like others don't. 

I do agree that if your horse doesn't have any turnout time then it's important that you make up for that somewhere by doing something out of their stable whatever that may be and if you don't have the time or inclination then it's worth changing something for both yours and the horses sake.  
Then again I'm someone who doesn't agree with people who maybe ride or visit their horse once a week and leave to itself in a field/stable but I guess thats a different argument.....


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## BentleyBelly (15 August 2011)

Mine lives out 24/7 all year round....no turnout is totally unacceptable. Horses are designed to live outdoors not in a stable!


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## 4faults (15 August 2011)

What if you can't look at cutting down numbers because it's not your yard?

Or not travel further afield because there is nothing in the area and you don't drive?

My horses are happy and no one said they are shut in their boxes for months, they get worked and get time turned out together in the indoor school to play


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## Enfys (15 August 2011)

GingerCat said:



			..So I ask *again*, would they then give up their horses if they couldn't have winter turnout?
		
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I wouldn't have horses if I had to keep them at livery full stop!


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## Cluck (15 August 2011)

I don't understand why yards don't build a few dry paddocks with hardcore and some sand. Even half an acre would be enough for several paddocks to rotate the horses through for a few hours a day.

Here in the US, that kind of arrangement is typical in addition to the fields that are used 'weather permitting'. There are still some Western style yards (barns) where the poor muscle bound quarter horses only see the light of day when they are ridden. They are otherwise in 10'*10' stalls 365 days/year .... ugh.

After 10 horrific years of livery (it's called boarding) here, I finally have my own small place and set up my box stalls so that the horses can go in and out as they please into dry paddocks and into their field if I open the gate. This works so well and is much healthier for the horses. They move around all day. They get shut in only a few days per year when the weather is terrible.

I hope never to put my horses on livery again but if I had to I would choose a yard with turnout all year round. I have driven up to an hour each way for a livery yard


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## GingerCat (15 August 2011)

I rented a field last year for my (then) colt and turned him out with my gelding.

I saw very little benefit in the arrangement to be honest, both of them wet and muddy most of the time, despite rugs. I still had to feed hay in the field and actually had to feed more than usual to keep them warm. And they were always glad to come in at night

None of my horses have ever shown 'stereotypical' behaviour despite their limited turnout through the winter whilst we've been on this yard.
So this year I will not keep on the field that I rented last year.
I will once again turn them out in one of our arenas either indoors or out depending on the weather so that they can socialise and  stretch their legs.

You can keep your mud rash, your wet, muddy rugs that won't dry out  and churned up fields.

And for those who's horses 'go mental' when cooped up in stables, I suggest that you look at what you're feeding them. A little less hard feed and more fibre may help matters. 

And Enfys : My horse are not kept at livery  As a family we rent stables etc. and look after the horses  ourselves. Or are you suggesting that unless you have your own yard you should not keep horses?


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## Enfys (15 August 2011)

Cluck said:



			I don't understand why yards don't build a few dry paddocks with hardcore and some sand. Even half an acre would be enough for several paddocks to rotate the horses through for a few hours a day.

QUOTE]

I am totally with you on this, but there are several reasons, these for starters:

* The sheer expense. (Unless you are on sandy soil)

*  Planning permits - some councils can be very VERY picky and consider this an arena, which, basically it is because let's face it, if you have a sand paddock you ride in it don't you? I _plough my fields up _to make riding rings for summer because our ground is solid

* Some people just don't like dry lots, it is a very _un-British _method. The logic of it is undeniable, and thinking has changed, but to some it just isn't done

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## quirky (15 August 2011)

I live in a very wet area and our winter turnout is on one of 3 sand paddocks. The horses go out in rotation and have about 2 hours each out.

There is also the walker that they can go on if you wish.

They can also be loose schooled in the indoor in even more extreme weather than we normally get .


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## Cluck (15 August 2011)

Oh I hear you on dry lots being very un-British

I have very un-fond British memories of my horse wading through 8 inches of mud all winter. It was hell and I hated it. But he did get turnout which kept him rideable.

I didn't realise that planning permission was necessary for something as simple as a small dry lot! Ridunckulous really


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## Equestrianfriends (15 August 2011)

GingerCat said:



			I rented a field last year for my (then) colt and turned him out with my gelding.

I saw very little benefit in the arrangement to be honest, both of them wet and muddy most of the time, despite rugs. I still had to feed hay in the field and actually had to feed more than usual to keep them warm. And they were always glad to come in at night

None of my horses have ever shown 'stereotypical' behaviour despite their limited turnout through the winter whilst we've been on this yard.
So this year I will not keep on the field that I rented last year.
I will once again turn them out in one of our arenas either indoors or out depending on the weather so that they can socialise and  stretch their legs.

You can keep your mud rash, your wet, muddy rugs that won't dry out  and churned up fields.

And for those who's horses 'go mental' when cooped up in stables, I suggest that you look at what you're feeding them. A little less hard feed and more fibre may help matters. 

And Enfys : My horse are not kept at livery  As a family we rent stables etc. and look after the horses  ourselves. Or are you suggesting that unless you have your own yard you should not keep horses?
		
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I agree with you on this with some of the comments they are coming out with make me feel like they say people who keep there horses in in the winter are bad owners. My horses are my life and i love them dearly  I am on a wonderful yard with amazing facilities and we have a turn out pen with a surface if needed, the horses are put on the walker twice a day, we have and indoor and outdoor to and my horse will be exercsied everyday, we have summer turnout but i have him out at night and in in the day, winter they are stabled 24/7  now the last yard i was at we had turnout but the school was awful the surface was deep and horrid ,  so i moved to a beautiful yard with outdoor and indoor arenas with amazing surfaces, turnout pen with a surface, horse walker,solarium,hot and cold wash box. Its everything i need there as i compete at high level.   As you say aswell stabled horses if exercised and fed a correct diet they will be fine.   At the old yard last winter it was awful horses out in the wet not much grass shoes flying off lol wet muddy rugs yuk, and i was always worrying my horse would pull a tendon or injure himself by running around in the wet.


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## Enfys (15 August 2011)

GingerCat said:



			I

And Enfys : Or are you suggesting that unless you have your own yard you should not keep horses?
		
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Oh you have got your knickers in a twist haven't you? 

I meant nothing of the kind, don't be so daft - I* own *a Boarding Farm (and most of my Boarders _choose_ to have their horses living out all year round by the way)

Where did I say that?* I* just wouldn't have horses if I had to keep them somewhere else, I don't want to, I am fortunate that I don't have to, that's all, what's wrong with that? Anyway, finding a yard to take the horses I have would be well nigh impossible.  

Everybody does things differently and they are entitled to do what suits them, you asked a question and I merely answered it. 

I didn't realise that you were looking for _my_ take on _your_ opinion.


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## Enfys (15 August 2011)

Cluck said:



			I didn't realise that planning permission was necessary for something as simple as a small dry lot! Ridunckulous really 

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Don't take my word on that, but I know plenty that there are plenty of 'jobsworths' who'd report that sort of thing. 

Horse keeping (and the way of thinking) in NA is vastly different in some ways isn't it?


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## GingerCat (15 August 2011)

Enfys said:



			Oh you have got your knickers in a twist haven't you?
		
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Knickers in a twist?...my whole wardrobe is spinning! 

This whole thread seems aimed at making people who don't have the luxury of manicured winter turnout feel as though they are cruel owners who don't have their horses' best interests at heart. Utter tosh!
And judging by the contents of my inbox  I'm not the only one feelng this.


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## Equestrianfriends (15 August 2011)

GingerCat said:



			Knickers in a twist?...my whole wardrobe is spinning! 

This whole thread seems aimed at making people who don't have the luxury of manicured winter turnout feel as though they are cruel owners who don't have their horses' best interests at heart. Utter tosh!
And judging by the contents of my inbox  I'm not the only one feelng this.
		
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well said!


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## Wagtail (15 August 2011)

Naryafluffy said:



			Would have to say that last year after a neighbouring yard had 3 horses PTS because they broke legs in the snow
		
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That is how my old mare ended up a field ornament. I caved in from pressure from one of my liveries to let them out in the snow. They always go out in the all weather in the snow, but not their fields. I began to think I was being too precious as she pointed out that all these other horses were out in it, and so I gave in to the pressure. Never again! My mare broke her shoulder doing the splits in the field and permanently wrecked her biceps braccus tendon. She is lucky to even be alive.

The year before that, my sister lost her horse when he broke his leg hooning about the field in the mud and slipped. Four years before that I lost a horse when he broke his hock when he twisted awkwardly due to deep mud next to the field gate trying to escape the field bully. The same year my friend lost her newly backed 3 year old event prospect when he slipped in mud trying to stop in time and broke his neck on the gate post.

My horses do not go out in mud or on ice and snow, not because I don't want my fields trashing, but because it is a risk I am no longer prepared to take.


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## Cluck (15 August 2011)

Enfys said:



			Don't take my word on that, but I know plenty that there are plenty of 'jobsworths' who'd report that sort of thing. 

Horse keeping (and the way of thinking) in NA is vastly different in some ways isn't it? 

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Oh my yes it is  Horses are largely treated as livestock here, they are not a luxury and every redneck seems to keep one or two in their backyards  I have found that attitude SO incredibly difficult to deal with. Being a mouthy Brit who says it as it is has not helped me during my 10 years of livery!

Think of a little 5'3" woman having shouting matches with a 6'4" crazy hick farmer man  The incidents are just too numerous to mention but I was literally reduced to visiting my horses (on full livery) every day to make sure that they had clean water and hay, and to muck out their stables (properly).

On the other hand, land is cheap and as long as it is zoned agricultural, you can do what you like with it. Now I have some of my own it's bliss! The Midwest is one of the hay-making states so I never find it hard to find top quality grass hay here.

The _'barefoot/natural horse keeping' _movement is really taking off and, apart from the fanatics, that has been a good thing for me and my horses. I have learned so much about keeping horses as horses and they are happier, healthier and sounder for it. 

It is interesting to compare horse issues. 99% of it is all the same though


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## Dancing Queen (15 August 2011)

Wagtail said:



			My horses do not go out in mud or on ice and snow, not because I don't want my fields trashing, but because it is a risk I am no longer prepared to take.
		
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My horses dont go out on ice or snow, im lucky that our field doesnt get muddy at all. im sorry to hear about all those accidents. x


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## Wagtail (15 August 2011)

If we get a dry spell during the winter, the horses go back out on the grass, but they seem very happy in the sand turnout as it is large enough for them to hoon about and they have haynets tied up all around it. I have to poo pick and rake up dropped haylage 3 times a day to keep it nice though so it's hard work!


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## HollyWoozle (15 August 2011)

For me personally the idea of stabling a horse 24/7 is horrific. I know some people don't have choices or that there are exceptions, but I do feel that it's cruel in most cases. 

Ours live out 24/7, all year round, on our own land (I appreciate that we're very fortunate). There are 2 large horses and 2 ponies on about 3 acres - sometimes it is extremely muddy, sometimes rutted and icy, sometimes a dust bowl, but we have never had any problems with injury due to the ground (touch wood!) or problems such as mud fever. A loan horse came to us with breathing issues from being stabled and of course it cleared up straight away when she was out all the time. Our vet also agrees that this is the best way for horses to live. 

We have stables which are left open all the time as optional shelter for the horses. This also means that they can get onto the concrete out of the mud or wet when they like and that we have the stables there in case of injury or a need to keep one in. Noah was recently on box rest for a month and we found it very upsetting to have to keep him in all that time. Our field often gets wrecked in the winter but every year it comes back with minimal management. When the grass is poor, we up the hay and hard feed if necessary. 

For me this is the ideal way to keep horses. As I said, I appreciate that there are exceptions where some horses need stabling for whatever reason, but I wouldn't choose it for my horses when avoidable.


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## topclass (15 August 2011)

Cant belive so many of you dont have winter turnout for your babies 

If you dont ofter turnout then you get unhappy horses and even more unhappy owners im lucky I have tons of land and seperate fields for summer and winter so if the winter ones get trashed so be it, it'll be rolled and chain harrowed in spring ready for winter again no big deal, Id rather have a happy horse that one that's miserable and as alwasy it is up to the individual horse owner to turnout or not I offer the option and mine are out 99% of the time except in ice conditions, heavy rain, health and safety is paramount when ice is concerned but luckily mine arent bothered about racing around just having a roll and then finding some grass they go out at 9am and are in at 3pm to a nice big warm bed, haylage and a tea and tucked up all snug for the night and then out again in the morning and they are happy and so am I


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## Ranyhyn (15 August 2011)

Honey08 said:



			I hate horses being in too, but its very easy to condemn yards for over population and bad management, and unless you have run a yard you can't really comment.  Its also easy to say that fields wouldn't churn up when you are on good draining soil - if you are on clay, like us, you are basically living in the bottom of a big pond!  Its also easy to say that gates and fields should have hardcore/concrete paths - try getting it past the planning dept round here...
		
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Agreed.  We have 25 acres and two horses - not overpopulated by any measure.  They will still kill a lot of the land come winter time - because it's so much more to do with what land you have - than how many horses etc.  We manage the land here to the very best of our ability but horses ruin imperfect land and if you want perfect land - you better be prepared to pay for it


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## cbmcts (15 August 2011)

GingerCat said:



			So if you couldn't find a yard that didn't offer turnout, you wouldn't keep horses then?
		
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I'm in exactly that position - I have 2 retired horses that I have sent to the next county on retirement livery so they could have 24/7 *safe * turnout. I also decided not to buy another horse to ride because there are no yards in this area that will guarantee even limited winter turnout. Most will lie to you and say there is though. So, not being sanctimonious  I decided that after nearly 35 years of being a hands on horse owner that if I couldn't keep them that *I* consider the bare minimum of welfare that I wouldn't have a riding horse. In saying that, I have huge admiration for the people who put the work and effort into making a situation like that work - I just don't have the time and energy to do it.  
The one grass livery yard in this area (I was on it for over 10 years)  is now so overcrowded (and under new management) that they regularly start the winter with 30 horses on 12 acres...by Christmas it's normally down to half that number with at least 2 PTS because of injury and the rest having moved on. 



ladyt25 said:



			But surely, if you were considering buying a horse do you not look in to what yards are available in your area first and what facilities they had? Surely you would, it'd be very stupid to buy a horse and not know where you're intending on keeping it first?!

Some YOs lie... or to be charitable their definition of turnout is very different to yours

I wouldn't buy a horse if their was nowhere near me where I could keep it and it be allowed T/O. I'd look at other options if all livery yards were that cr*p - like approaching farmers and other landowners with the possibility of renting someland myself! 

In crowded parts of the SE that isn't always easy especially if you are a one horse owner or have to commute long distances to work

However, I still don't get why anyone would open a livery yard of that was going to be their policy. I don't see how anyone can feel it's acceptable. mind you, I guess some people just see a horse as a machine or commodity and don't see it as a living, breathing animal!
		
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It really depends on whether you consider turnout to be essential or not - a lot of people are so used to not TO and there are are horses who appear to manage fine without it - that it has become the new norm. Not for me but then there are a lot things I do that would be considered very 'old fashioned' and I also have to take into account that I work full time with a horrendous commute (which is only going to get worse in the run up to the Olympics!) and cannot physically devote the time and energy to make a no TO situation bearable for the average horse.


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## Piglet (15 August 2011)

I would never consider a yard with no turn out in the winter, the yard I am I am in now is not my ideal yard, but it has more good points than bad and one of those is winter turnout during the day or 24/7 if preferred.  Sure the fields get muddy but horses are happy and the fields soon recover.


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## ofcourseyoucan (15 August 2011)

well my liveries get turnout every day. elderly, infirm and pathetic horses come in early if they are hanging around. yes hay/haylage put out in fields every day. horses are kept happy! owners still moan about the mud! all gateways are hardcored so hard standing. also have a walker and a floodlight school if owners dont want tunout (???????????!!) the land recovers in spring with a bit of tlc, seed and fert. but you cant keep all hapy all of the time!


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## ofcourseyoucan (15 August 2011)

sadly liveries think grass grows for free!!! it takes a lot of time and money to manage the land, to reseed/topseed , rest, fertilise, spray etc. Giving winter turnout does increase land management costs considerably.


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## Wagtail (15 August 2011)

It's strange, but I have never once had someone decide not to come here after coming to see the yard. They know they will not have grass turnout during the worst of the winter, although we do get the horses out 365 days a year using the sand turnout. Not one person has seemed unhappy with this arrangement. But I only have full or part livery, so maybe that's the difference?


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## millitiger (16 August 2011)

Wagtail said:



			It's strange, but I have never once had someone decide not to come here after coming to see the yard. They know they will not have grass turnout during the worst of the winter, although we do get the horses out 365 days a year using the sand turnout. Not one person has seemed unhappy with this arrangement. But I only have full or part livery, so maybe that's the difference?
		
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I am on full livery and wouldn't be happy with that arrangement so I don't think it is to do with part/full livery.

I think it may be that people in your area know you don't have field turnout in winter and therefore some people don't even enquire about livery in the first place- when I was looking for a new yard I discounted a number of yards without even calling as I knew they did not match my 'wish list.'

A number of people on our yard (all full liveries) do not turn out in very wet weather or snow but equally there are a number of us who have requested our horses go out all day, every day and the YO is happy to oblige.


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## Amymay (16 August 2011)

No winter turnout for my horses means no business from me I'm afraid.


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## ILuvCowparsely (16 August 2011)

Wagtail said:



			It's strange, but I have never once had someone decide not to come here after coming to see the yard.
		
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  can I be the first to decide  not to come to your yard because you have no winter turnout ?
?



ofcourseyoucan said:



			sadly liveries think grass grows for free!!! it takes a lot of time and money to manage the land, to reseed/topseed , rest, fertilize, spray etc. Giving winter turnout does increase land management costs considerably.
		
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5^  to this    don't forget harrowing as well  ,this is why we don't put hay out . we spend £ 1000 at least on field maintenance. if how ever its  a hot summer no grass  , i have had liveries say are you going to put hay out. I say no  sorry  its cheaper for us to give you hay through the summer than pay for good grazing etc. This was only 1 person  nobody else complains.


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## paddy (16 August 2011)

We're in the South East although we're lucky as we're on sandy soil and have more acres than horses.  Even so, my heart sinks when I see the state of our fields over the winter - I'd love them to be beautiful, manicured....  Instead, they have happy horses in them.   Only time OH keeps them in is if the owner has asked for them to be in or it's dangerous for them to go out.  Which last year roughly translated as a few days in due to ice.

Once the fields are fertilised, rolled, harrowed, topped etc, it all starts over again.

Couldn't stand having horses in all the time though.  A few yards around here offer all year round turnout but it is not every day and it's often only for a few hours.  To me, horses are designed to go out.  However, some clients could perhaps be a little more realistic and realise that grass doesn't grow over the winter!


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## touchstone (16 August 2011)

I think that I'm fortunate in renting my own land, I have a stable which opens directly on to the paddock so over the summer months I use a track system around the perimeter of the field.  This increases exercise and restricts intake of grass for fatties/laminitics.  The grass in the middle is browsed by sheep and an elderly tb that manages more grass with no problems.  Then it is rested over the Autumn and gradually strip grazed over the winter months until the whole of the field is being grazed.  Once Spring arrives the track system is back up and running.

Because the horses have free access to their stables they can go in and out as they choose, so there is rarely any hoolying around after being turned out so the risk of injuries is reduced.  

It works well for me anyway!


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## ISHmad (16 August 2011)

No winter turnout is a no no for me.  We are fortunate to get year round 24/7 turnout where we are.  I appreciate winter turnout isn't available for everyone but to me that isn't something I would compromise on for my horses.


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## Wagtail (16 August 2011)

millitiger said:



			I am on full livery and wouldn't be happy with that arrangement so I don't think it is to do with part/full livery.

I think it may be that people in your area know you don't have field turnout in winter and therefore some people don't even enquire about livery in the first place- when I was looking for a new yard I discounted a number of yards without even calling as I knew they did not match my 'wish list.'

A number of people on our yard (all full liveries) do not turn out in very wet weather or snow but equally there are a number of us who have requested our horses go out all day, every day and the YO is happy to oblige.
		
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This is what I don't understand. The point is I DO have winter turnout. In fact last year we were the only yard in the area that turned out every single day during the really bad weather. My farrier told me. The reason being the all weather turnout is only yards from the stables and the walk way is therefore easy to keep gritted and clear of snow and ice. The yards keeping their horses in were those boasting all year turnout but the weather beat them because it was too dangerous to lead the horses to the fields. Ours on the other hand were out for at least four hours every day. They have ad lib quality haylage during that time and can hoon about on a safe all weather surface. Why would anyone want them to go out in the fields when it is frozen solid and dangerous?


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## Wagtail (16 August 2011)

Having spent most of my horsey life turning out all year round in the field, I can honestly say that my horses are happier with the all weather turnout than they were in the fields. When they were in the fields, they suffered from mud fever, would huddle in the gateways wanting to come in and would be generally excitable to handle at bringing in time. Now they never stand waiting to come in, and when I do fetch them in they are patient and orderly. They are completely chilled and good tempered. I would never go back to turning out in the fields during the worst of the weather.


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## Amymay (16 August 2011)

Wagtail said:



			This is what I don't understand. The point is I DO have winter turnout. In fact last year we were the only yard in the area that turned out every single day during the really bad weather. My farrier told me. The reason being the all weather turnout is only yards from the stables and the walk way is therefore easy to keep gritted and clear of snow and ice. The yards keeping their horses in were those boasting all year turnout but the weather beat them because it was too dangerous to lead the horses to the fields. Ours on the other hand were out for at least four hours every day. They have ad lib quality haylage during that time and can hoon about on a safe all weather surface. Why would anyone want them to go out in the fields when it is frozen solid and dangerous?
		
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I think you are confused.  All year turnout means we expect our horses to be turned out on grass.

As for yards not being able to turnout because of bad weather - well we would all except that there may be the odd day when snow or ice makes things difficult.  And I certainly don't have a problem with keeping a horse in for a few days whilst there is a thaw.

The weather in this country is essentially warm and wet - last year was an exeption.

The only legitimate reason for not offering year round turnout is overstocked land, imo.  We've established that you don't have enough land to offer year round turnout - and you won't be alone in this problem.


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## MagicMelon (16 August 2011)

wellsat said:



			I would see it as completely unacceptable. If you can't turn out in winter because it ruins the fields then you haven't got enough grazing for the number of horses on your yard. Fair enough if the horse in question suffers from raging mud fever and the fields are under a foot of water but as a general rule I think its cruel. .
		
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Ditto.  Mine live out 24/7 on grass, but they have a hardcored area by the stables which are left open so they can come and go as they please.  Perfect IMO. I also have a thin skinned TB type who I clip and compete most of the winter too - the rugs nowadays are super cosy. Yes, the fields get frozen solid or covered in snow frequently (I'm NE Scotland) but so what?  Horses should be used to that sort of thing!  Mine have always been very careful when the ground is frozen - they're not stupid, they dont gallop about. I think people need to give their horses a bit more credit and quit wrapping them in cotton wool.  

What I dont understand is that most of you would never consider keeping your dog in say, a small dog crate (relative to its size) for the majority of the time or even solidly for months at a time so why on earth do you feel its ok to do this to your horse who is designed to graze and be a herd animal?  Its a stupid tradition which is long outdated, too many people ask why they should be turning out - the question should be why they are stabling!


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## Wagtail (16 August 2011)

amymay said:



			I think you are confused.  All year turnout means we expect our horses to be turned out on grass.

As for yards not being able to turnout because of bad weather - well we would all except that there may be the odd day when snow or ice makes things difficult.  And I certainly don't have a problem with keeping a horse in for a few days whilst there is a thaw.

The weather in this country is essentially swarm and wet - last year was an exeption.

The only legitimate reason for not offering year round turnout is overstocked land, imo.  We've established that you don't have enough land to offer year round turnout - and you won't be alone in this problem.
		
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Whe I first moved here I had only two horses on the 7 acres. It was still far too dangerous and they poached it up terribly. We have now bought the neighbouring 11 acres so have a total of 8 horses on 18 acres. They will still not be going out when I feel the fields are too muddy or icy. It is a safety issue for me. Nothing to do with the amount of land or keeping the land nice.

Grass is not very nutritional during the winter. IME horses will always eat good quality haylage if it is put out in the winter in the fields. I really don't see why the turnout has to be grass. So long as the horses have a safe area to play and good forage, then surely that is better than standing in muddy fields? In many other countries, horses are kept in sand paddocks as the climate does not support lush grazing. The horses seem just as happy. I think horses look thoroughly miserable in some of the mud pits yards pass off as winter turnout. 

If I lived in an area that was sandier and had 3 or more acres per horse, plus adequate shelter, then yes, I would probably turn out on it all year round. It would save me a lot of money and effort! However, people are being unrealistic to expect to be on a yard where they pay for DIY and get this. If they are lucky enough to have it, then they are very lucky indeed.

I think that horses need all year round turnout, but that it does not need to be on grass. In fact, I would always prefer to have my horses on an all weather turnout during bad weather by choice.


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## Amymay (16 August 2011)

That's great that you've now got more land.

I understand the safety issue.  But sometimes we can wrap them up just a little too much in cotton wool.  These are animals after all.

I can say, hand on heart, that I've never seen a problem with horses, winter turnout and injuries because of it.

Managed well, it's just as productive as summer turnout.

We have no arguments, no standing by the gates, or sillyness comming in.

But of course, at the end of the day it's personal preference.  And yes, your horses do get out every day, somewhere.  Which is always better than standing in a stable.


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## tabithakat64 (16 August 2011)

I would never chose a yard with no winter turnout. 

The yard my two semi-retired equines are at has the option of over night or day time turnout year round, the fields never have more than a couple of inches of mud in the gateway and the fields always recover well from being used year round. This situation is ideal for me 

I keep my other horse at a friends yard, we all moved there last August. Unfortunately we must have the worst fields in the area, they are in a valley or on a hillside and heavy clay.  Last winter they became very waterlogged and muddy however we still managed to turnout out daily or nightly in two 'trash' paddocks or the school. The paddocks have recovered to some extent with careful management.

This is not ideal as I would like him to have more turnout (he was turned out for 6 hours a day from December to March) but my horse had behavioural issues when I first had him and would have ended up hurting people had he been on a normal DIY yard. 

If turnout had to be further limited to a couple of hours a day I would certainly move him as this would not be acceptable IMO.


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## aimsymc (16 August 2011)

I personaly dont have a prob with no winter turnout on grass. The yard im at just now has winter turnout unless hideous weather. But i was also on a yard with turnout on a sand suface for an hour a day, horses were absolutely fine and onky ones with a problem were the ones who fed buckets of feed and didnt ride enough! Imo thats bad management!


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## millitiger (16 August 2011)

Wagtail said:



			This is what I don't understand. The point is I DO have winter turnout. In fact last year we were the only yard in the area that turned out every single day during the really bad weather. My farrier told me. The reason being the all weather turnout is only yards from the stables and the walk way is therefore easy to keep gritted and clear of snow and ice. The yards keeping their horses in were those boasting all year turnout but the weather beat them because it was too dangerous to lead the horses to the fields. Ours on the other hand were out for at least four hours every day. They have ad lib quality haylage during that time and can hoon about on a safe all weather surface. Why would anyone want them to go out in the fields when it is frozen solid and dangerous?
		
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How big is your all weather turnout and can you have horses together/either side?

We have field turnout all through winter and not once had an issue getting the horses out to the fields through all of the snow and ice.

I like my horses to go out on all ground and in all weather- I think it is better for them to learn where their feet and legs are and to adapt accordingly.

Maybe mine are different as they have gone out every day since foals on clay soil and they have been expected to get on with it so they seem very sure footed.

There was nothing nicer than watching my 2 racing each other last winter on 2ft of snow and having a great time galloping and making huge snow angels 

I understand there is an element of risk but there is risk with most things involved with horses and if I worried about everything, they would never leave their stables.


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## Amymay (16 August 2011)

There was nothing nicer than watching my 2 racing each other last winter on 2ft of snow and having a great time galloping and making huge snow angels
		
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Just a beautiful sight, I agree.


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## jsr (16 August 2011)

I wouldn't put my horse somewhere he couldn't get unrestricted turnout. He's out most of the time, just comes in for munch. The grazing is appauling at my yard but it's a biggish field with a nice mix of horses and while I do spend alot of money feeding him to keep his weight at least I know he's having plenty of fresh air, got good companions and space to have a play in. Winter the field fairs very well, the gateways are obviously muddy but being sandy raised fields the majority of the acres are not muddy and clear. Can't imagine him if he was stuck inside days on end, I'd be very miserable and he certainly would be too.


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## JFTDWS (16 August 2011)

I wouldn't stable somewhere without turnout in winter.  I would find an alternative, whatever the cost.  There is always a choice, if you think otherwise, you're just not prepared to see the choice (because it would mean driving / public transport x hours a day / sleep deprivation / changing lifestyle / sacrificing facilities e.g. school / seeking out a field rent from a farmer etc).

I may be the only person in Britain praying for another winter like last.  Colder the better.  The more snow, the better.  If the ground freezes, there's no mud and mine will be out 24/7.  I will stable as much as I have to, to prevent my grazing being totally trashed.  But at most that will be stabling overnight.

Mine are more than happy to be in, I've had to stable for various reasons in the past.  They're well mannered, they adapt, they remain handlable and rideable.  But they're also happy to be out.  It's not a management problem, it's a management choice - I think it is important for them to be out, so they will be.

IME the more turnout they get, the quieter they are in the field - stabling horses for long periods then chucking them out onto mud / snow / rutted ground is asking for trouble and injuries as they let off steam.  Mine are calm in the field because they don't have any steam to let off   Freak accidents can always happen.  Alas that is the nature of life.  I won't stable mine for months on end for that fear.  They could equally encouter a freak accident in the stable anyway.

If you're managing an arthritic, provided it can be kept warm in the field, the steady movement is generally better for the joints than long periods standing still in a stable.  Furthermore, if you look at some of the research regarding ulcers and starvation periods, lengthy stabling itself appears to be associated with the development of ulcers (compared to field kept horses) suggesting there are a variety of tangible health benefits to turnout.


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## CHH (16 August 2011)

I have found this post fascinating with regards to the number and content of the replies.

It seems to me that those who are in the situation of not having winter turnout are being defensive or justifying their reason for being there. Which is understandable, forums allow all opinions and cirumstances.

Others who turn out all year are expressing that this is the more 'natural' approach to the nomadic behaviour of the horse, thus allowing the horse to express being a horse.

I have imported my own horses from warm climates that never have experienced the cold as we have here, and they have lived in at night, out at day fine. Some over the age of 13years who had no turnout over there either. With correct management they all enjoy the freedom.

They adapt, as an animal the horse IS very adaptable. Initially they do stand at the gate clueless, but over time they simply revert to grazing and the occasional 'prance about' to let any potential mate know they are there (the stallions).

Daily turnout, in my experience, I think is crucial for such an animal, allow the to forage, graze, mooch do 'horse things' - things I do not believe they can exhibite in the stable - hence vices, ulcers and other negative things.

The fact they are adaptable has led to the working life and also the stable life. The stable is not for the benefit of the horse, but originally the human.
Sames goes for stainless steel bits.

If yards can't manage their land, or don't have enough, to offer what should be basic needs of the animal then they shouldn't operate.

As another poster said - maintaining the land does come at a price, machinery, labour - experience/knowledge etc...

If a yard feels this cost can not be returned in time through livery fees, then is this really a viable yard? If liveries can not afford correct facilties (I'm not talking fancy indoor arenas but grazing) for their horse (including the travel costs etc...) then should they own the horse in the first place?

I'm sorry if that sounds awful, but I sold my own horse at the early stages of my career because of those reasons. A short term loss and years later I was in a much better position to provide for not only one horse but many, at home.

I believe there are now laws surrounding the size of hutch you can keep a rabbit type pet in - so how long before this attention is turned to the horse?

1 hour in 24 hours in an arena I guess is better than nothing, but far from ideal - but if there are 10 horses on such a yard and everyone works - how is this honestly being done?

I have seen and been on livery yards where everyone is there between 5-8pm at night, how could each horse have time?

For those who are doing this - how do you have time for family?
I would not put my horse before my kids to be stuck in such a system, it can't be a fun enjoyable hobby during winter.

I hope everyone gets through winter OK, both two and four legged.


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## quirky (16 August 2011)

CHH said:



			If liveries can not afford correct facilties (I'm not talking fancy indoor arenas but grazing) for their horse (including the travel costs etc...) then should they own the horse in the first place?
		
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Eh ? 

You cannot be serious !

I think the WHW would be completely over run with horses if they used your criteria of horse management.


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## Wagtail (16 August 2011)

millitiger said:



			How big is your all weather turnout and can you have horses together/either side?
		
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It's 40m x 30m so just a bit larger than a normal menage. The horses go out in groups of four in two shifts. It is picked out several times a day and haylage nets tied around the edge. 

I vowed never to turn out again in either mud or in snow or ice after my horse of a lifetime did her shoulder and I had to retire her. I had grown complacent after nearly five years with no turnout accidents. To me, it's just not worth it, though I understand others' views when they have been lucky enough to remain accident free for years. 

I also really do feel that horses that have to go out in trashed winter paddocks are miserable. It is better than no turnout at all but I truly believe my horses are happier in the all weather during the winter. My liveries love it too as there is no mud to wash off.

If I was ever to move, my first priority (before a menage) would be an all weather turn out. I see it as essential now, unless I was lucky enough to live somewhere with lovely sandy soil that didn't get slippery or muddy in the wet.


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## JFTDWS (16 August 2011)

quirky said:



			I think the WHW would be completely over run with horses if they used your criteria of horse management.
		
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Or, over time, there would simply be fewer horses bred and produced for sale to meet the reduced demand...


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## Montys_Mum (16 August 2011)

I really wouldnt consider a yard that didnt have all year turnout. The fields at our yard arent particularly great but its a very big yard with alot of ponies, but our field only has 3 horses and 2 foalies and the field is never rested with them out 24/7 in summer and in at night in the winter. We section quarters off to let the grass grow and sometimes hay them too. I think for the what a horse does he deserves to go out and have 'his time' to eat and play. My horse is a wimp but he still will go out in the snow and love it (even though he nicely rugged up  ) i think its just more natural for them to have time to chill.


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## CHH (16 August 2011)

quirky said:



			Eh ? 

You cannot be serious !

I think the WHW would be completely over run with horses if they used your criteria of horse management.
		
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My criteria for horse management...That being the animal has access to grazing/time out of a stable each day?

How is that not being serious?


I also think the all weather is a great idea mentioned above especially if land is known to be boggy or very hilly. I would revert to an arena system in such situations, especially when there is 3ft of snow to get through.


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## quirky (16 August 2011)

JFTD said:



			Or, over time, there would simply be fewer horses bred and produced for sale to meet the reduced demand...
		
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Which will help but it won't change clay soil to loam and neither will it prevent the torrential rain that lashes the part of the country I live in frequently.

To say people shouldn't own horses because they don't have winter turnout is extreme and offensive. Some people need to look further than the end of their noses to see how the rest of the country is.

I have lived down south and north. Both demanded different regimes for the horses and they adapt. I know where I'd rather live .


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## quirky (16 August 2011)

CHH said:



			My criteria for horse management...That being the animal has access to grazing/time out of a stable each day?

How is that not being serious?
		
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I read your original post as having grazing time, not alternative turnout.

I still think saying people shouldn't have horses that can't get out extreme but I do agree that a horse needs chill time either on grass or paddock.


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## CHH (16 August 2011)

quirky said:



			Which will help but it won't change clay soil to loam and neither will it prevent the torrential rain that lashes the part of the country I live in frequently.

To say people shouldn't own horses because they don't have winter turnout is extreme and offensive. Some people need to look further than the end of their noses to see how the rest of the country is.

I have lived down south and north. Both demanded different regimes for the horses and they adapt. I know where I'd rather live .
		
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You are being defensive - and so I assume you have your horse in such a system.

I too have lived in many locations and other countries also, I see way beyond my own nose and that of my horses thanks.

Why is it extreme or offensive for someone to have this opinion?


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## JFTDWS (16 August 2011)

quirky said:



			Which will help but it won't change clay soil to loam and neither will it prevent the torrential rain that lashes the part of the country I live in frequently.
		
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I've kept horses down here on clay for over a decade, always with winter turnout.  Also lived for many years on the west coast of Scotland, where rain and mud are also very much at home - despite this the RSs I went to when I lived there all had winter turnout.  With the right stocking density and land management, it is possible to have all year turnout anywhere.  Especially if you're willing to invest in alternative surfaces.  So to my mind, where you live isn't really relevant...


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## Amymay (16 August 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I vowed never to turn out again in either mud or in snow or ice after my horse of a lifetime did her shoulder and I had to retire her.
		
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I think that's a huge over-reaction. My friend's horse of a lifetime was out on beautiful summer pasture, and broke her leg cantering across the field. Does that mean she should never turn out again on even the best land?  No of course not.




			I also really do feel that horses that have to go out in trashed winter paddocks are miserable.
		
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That's a huge generalisation, and certainly not my experience (mostly)


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## quirky (16 August 2011)

CHH said:



			Why is it extreme or offensive for someone to have this opinion?
		
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I find it offensive that some random should like to dictate how our horses are kept and because they aren't kept the way you decide, then they should be sold.

I am not about to justify my horses routine to you or anybody. She gets sufficient turnout all year, be it on grass or a surface. She has no health or psychological issues and is a dream to ride all year round.

That says to me she is a happy horse who is well cared for .


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## Wagtail (16 August 2011)

Safety issues aside, whilst I think we can all agree that the ideal horse environment would be lots of acres per horse, good ground with land that does not poach, and the choice to leave the horse out 24/7 with shelter, this is not practical for most people who do not own their own land (and have the money to buy and maintain it). Most people keep their horses at livery and it is just not financially viable for a yard to run as a business if it is to have enough land to provide 24/7 grazing for all horses throughout the whole year. They would need around 3 acres per horse. This is fine in areas where property prices are lower and land is cheap, but in areas near London, and other large cities, as well of a lot of the south, it is just not feasible. Liveries would have to charge around 3 times as much to provide this type of facility. Some may argue that this is what they should be made to do, but I think if they are made to provide all year round grazing for every livery, then most horse owners would be priced out of owning horses and horse prices would plummet resulting in mass destruction of animals.

However, if it is just TURNOUT people are demanding, then livery yards would need to invest in the building of all weather turnouts which again, for some, would not be financially feasible.


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## Ranyhyn (16 August 2011)

CHH said:



			My criteria for horse management...That being the animal has access to grazing/time out of a stable each day?
		
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how much turnout time do we have to adhere to to be able to keep our horses please?


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## Bertolie (16 August 2011)

I'm lucky as I can have as much winter turnout as I choose.  I am on a DIY yard and we each have our own paddocks.  What we choose to do with our paddocks is up to us.  The liveries at my yard that are furthest from the stables also get a small 'lazy' paddock that they can turn out in for a few hours each day.  

As my daughter also has her horse at the same yard we have two individual paddocks that we rotate.  Both horses are kept together all the time.  The one nearest the stables will be used over the winter allowing the other paddock time to rest.  Once we are into spring the horses will be turned out in the second paddock to allow the winter one to be rested and then rolled ready for summer.  

Obviously if the weather is really bad then we have the option of bringing them in but they were only in for a handful of nights and a couple of days last winter.


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## Wagtail (16 August 2011)

amymay said:



			I think that's a huge over-reaction. My friend's horse of a lifetime was out on beautiful summer pasture, and broke her leg cantering across the field. Does that mean she should never turn out again on even the best land?  No of course not.
		
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Not an over reaction when my sister lost her horse when he suffered a compound fracture of the hind cannon through slipping in a muddy field, and 5 years earlier I lost a gelding due to a hock fracture due to deep mud, and my friend lost her youngster, again, due to mud. After the first accidents I did not turn out in the field in poor conditions for several years until I was persuaded to by a livery and then this happened to my mare. I was devastated. I won't risk it again.

Of course, horses damage themselves in all kinds of conditions, but there are far mor accidents in winter paddocks IME than on good summer ground. I am not saying people are wrong to turnout in winter, just that I choose not to do it because of a few nasty experiences.


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## Mithras (16 August 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Not an over reaction when my sister lost her horse when he suffered a compound fracture of the hind cannon through slipping in a muddy field, and 5 years earlier I lost a gelding due to a hock fracture due to deep mud, and my friend lost her youngster, again, due to mud. After the first accidents I did not turn out in the field in poor conditions for several years until I was persuaded to by a livery and then this happened to my mare. I was devastated. I won't risk it again..
		
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But is this not more likely to happen to horses who don't get enough turnout and therefore race around on poor ground conditions?  Or do I always just have the sort of horses which are quite active to ride but barely go out of a walk when turned out?

I was on full livery and can't find a yard to do winter turnout so I'll be going DIY this winter to ensure it.  It just doesn't work for my horse.  He went slightly crazy last winter, very spooky, wouldn't jump (is a competition horse) and I had several nasty falls.  I don't think it does his joints and flexibility much good either.  With turnout, he is sane, calm and wins a lot!  I tried to ride him as much as I could, and spend as much time with him as I could, which kind of defeated the time saving notion of full livery.  

I absolutely hated going up to the yard and asking if my horse had been out yet, and asking them if they could make sure he would, riding a too fresh horse which felt like sitting on an unexploded bomb, and knowing it would be the same next day - I was told there would be turnout, which turned out to mean 20 minutes a couple of times a week, if it was sunny and if they remembered.

tbh if full livery can only provide 24/7 in a box, I'd be as well building a box in my garden and keeping him in that, and exercising him in the field next door!


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## GingerCat (16 August 2011)

It's quite obvious that the people who are stating that they wouldn't consider yards that can't offer all year round grass turnout are the ones who *are able* to find such yards. I don't believe that the majority of these people would have the same views if they didn't have access to such yards, No matter what they claim.

To the person who sent there horse away to retirement livery for all year round 24/7 turnout..shame on you! Most of these places claim to be retirement heaven but I've seen first hand that they are no such thing. Hundreds of horses just turned out and left to their own devices. There is no way that all the horses can be properly checked over twice a day.
I'd have my old boy PTS before I abandoned him to strangers


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## cbmcts (16 August 2011)

GingerCat said:



			It's quite obvious that the people who are stating that they wouldn't consider yards that can't offer all year round grass turnout are the ones who *are able* to find such yards. I don't believe that the majority of these people would have the same views if they didn't have access to such yards, No matter what they claim.

To the person who sent there horse away to retirement livery for all year round 24/7 turnout..shame on you! Most of these places claim to be retirement heaven but I've seen first hand that they are no such thing. Hundreds of horses just turned out and left to their own devices. There is no way that all the horses can be properly checked over twice a day.
I'd have my old boy PTS before I abandoned him to strangers 

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GingerCat, your double standards astound me (I don't know why! I've been on HHO long enough) - you complain bitterly that people disagree with your methods of horse husbandry and you cry shame on* me*! Logic doesn't seem to be your strong point. You say that you cannot find winter turnout because of the lack or unsuitability of land available in your area but you know of retirement liveries (you imply more than one?) that has enough land to turnout "hundreds" of horses. That suggests that land isn't at such a premium after all...

Not that it need anger or concern you but my horses are not part of a herd of hundreds, more like 15 - 20 depending on the time of year.They are checked twice daily, have their feet trimmed and are wormed on a very regular schedule. A RL that regularly has ex racers (among others)  living until  their late 20s/early 30s does not shout neglect to me. I think there are many horses on livery yards/private plots that are less well cared for? (Not that I was rude about them)I also do see my horses very regularly (after all, I've nothing to ride for the first time in 35 years - so my weekends are very free ) and I do a 200 mile round trip to do so. 

Do you also disagree with full livery as a matter of interest?


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## Hovis_and_SidsMum (16 August 2011)

GingerCat said:



			to retirement livery for all year round 24/7 turnout..shame on you! Most of these places claim to be retirement heaven but I've seen first hand that they are no such thing. Hundreds of horses just turned out and left to their own devices. There is no way that all the horses can be properly checked over twice a day.
I'd have my old boy PTS before I abandoned him to strangers 

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Ouch!
Thats a bit harsh!  You don't know the circumstances, you don't know if it was "strangers", maybe the poster visits frequently etc? I also doubt you have seen every retirement livery in the country!

As for the turn out question - mine is simple.  Hovis would not go somewhere where I couldn't turn him out when it is my choice to do so.  A few days last winter i kept him in due to the conditions or put him out for only a few hours.  The year before at another yard we were forced to keep them in for nearly 3 weeks due to the weather with no riding and he was a pain in the bum.  Moreover he was an idiot when i did turn him out - thus risking more injury than when he was quietly mooching in the snow this last year.


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## Flame_ (16 August 2011)

I would be happy with Wagtail's arrangement in particularly bad weather.


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## Flame_ (16 August 2011)

I've also been thinking about what somebody said ages ago about horses only going nuts when shut in because they are getting too much of the wrong food... Wrong! Many horses perform with plenty of energy all summer generated by nothing but hay and grass. This is because forage does provide many horses in low to medium work with all the fuel they need to operate. Hence when you stop them from operating in winter, where is all that energy going to go? Upwards, that's where, and horses eat plenty of hay when they're shut in doing nothing or they're even more miserable.


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## SecretSquirrell379 (16 August 2011)

I havn't read all of the posts, got a bit bamboozled after the 1st page!!

I am at a great yard that does have all year turn out, the fields are rotated and as long as the liveries are sensible they do stand the test of winter. There are just a handful of days that they are not allowed out and this is normally due to snow/flooding.

However, my horse does not go out very often over winter and that is my choice. She HATES it out in the rain/wind/snow, she will tear round and around and around, screaming her head off, skidding to halts, rearing, bucking, broncing. And she will keep doing this until someone brings her in, hours if necessary. The second you clip the lead rope on she takes a big breath and relaxes. She hides in the back of the stable if you put her head collar on if its raining, even in the summer!! The downside to this is I ride her every single day, rain/snow/gales, she gets ridden. For at least an hour.

I don't want my girl to break a leg or do herself a major injury tearing around like a nana, she is VERY happy in her stable, in her jim jams with a big fat haynet. She looks out straight over the yard, can see other horses and everyone too'ing and fro'ing.

She is perfectly healthy, 20 years old, and would give any 7 year old a run for its money!!!


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## jellycat (16 August 2011)

I was misled earlier in the year when I moved yards. I was told there was turnout available but it turned out that their idea of turnout was a tiny sand paddock.  My horse was there for around 5 weeks whilst I looked for somewhere else.  By the time we moved she had gone insane! It took us over an hour to load her, where just 6 weeks before it took 10mins. She was rearing and managed to escape and ran loose around the yard. It was HORRENDOUS! She was so very unhappy but within a week at our new place she was back to her old self again. So, my opinion is that no winter turnout is a no no. 

As an aside, there are yards round my way which only offer limited or no turnout in summer.  It's horrific and totally unnatural for horses.  They need the nutrients from the grass and the exercise. Not only that but socialisation is vital for me. How can herd bound animals be expected to spend their lives isolated and in a box?


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## _MizElz_ (16 August 2011)

Well, I'm going against the grain I know, but for my horse, no winter turnout would not be a problem, as she refuses to be out! I know many people will probably start telling me that I'm cruel, evil, abusing my horse, neglecting her basic needs etc, but I have owned her eleven years and have simply come to accept that she knows her own mind! Throughout the summer, she is out pretty much 24/7 unless competing; however, she gets to about October/November (weather dependent) and starts pacing, galloping around and screeching even when she has just been turned out. For the last couple of years, I have tried to persevere with her - walking away, ignoring her, asking YO to only bring her in if he thinks she is endangering herself - but she just ends up getting very stressed and cutting herself through throwing herself around. And when brought in, she relaxes totally - she loves being in her stable, and never seems to get too fresh or at all frustrated. So for me, I would not be put off a yard that had no winter turnout. Indeed, when we used to have our own yard, we only had a couple of acres and had to be very, very careful with it; this often meant a period of several weeks of no turnout during very wet weather (we were on heavy clay, prone to flooding). We coped perfectly well; yes, it's annoying, but at the end of the day you have to make the best of what you've got, and as long as the horses are able to have their legs stretched everyday and measures are taken to minimise boredom (radio on, stable toys, licks, etc) then I don't see a problem.
Lots of people jump on the 'It's not natural for a horse to be cooped up 24/7' bandwagon; however, it's not natural for a horse to be ridden, nor to have a metal bit in its mouth or metal shoes on its feet...so I don't really see the substance in that argument...


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## GingerCat (16 August 2011)

Hovis_and_SidsMum said:



			Ouch!
Thats a bit harsh!  You don't know the circumstances, you don't know if it was "strangers", maybe the poster visits frequently etc? I also doubt you have seen every retirement livery in the country!
.
		
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So it's OK my other's to make generalised comments but not me?

A lot of the comments on this thread have been 'harsh', but obviously it's OK for some to make them but not others.

No I haven't seen every retirement home in this country, have you?


But I have seen a fair few, when my horse was injured and had to be retired 3 years ago. That's why I made the decison to keep him with me where I knew he would be cared for properly. I felt I owe him that much.



_MizElz_ said:



			Lots of people jump on the 'It's not natural for a horse to be cooped up 24/7' bandwagon; however, it's not natural for a horse to be ridden, nor to have a metal bit in its mouth or metal shoes on its feet...so I don't really see the substance in that argument...

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Exactly!


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## SecretSquirrell379 (16 August 2011)

_MizElz_ said:



			Well, I'm going against the grain I know, but for my horse, no winter turnout would not be a problem, as she refuses to be out! I know many people will probably start telling me that I'm cruel, evil, abusing my horse, neglecting her basic needs etc, but I have owned her eleven years and have simply come to accept that she knows her own mind! Throughout the summer, she is out pretty much 24/7 unless competing; however, she gets to about October/November (weather dependent) and starts pacing, galloping around and screeching even when she has just been turned out. For the last couple of years, I have tried to persevere with her - walking away, ignoring her, asking YO to only bring her in if he thinks she is endangering herself - but she just ends up getting very stressed and cutting herself through throwing herself around. And when brought in, she relaxes totally - she loves being in her stable, and never seems to get too fresh or at all frustrated. So for me, I would not be put off a yard that had no winter turnout. Indeed, when we used to have our own yard, we only had a couple of acres and had to be very, very careful with it; this often meant a period of several weeks of no turnout during very wet weather (we were on heavy clay, prone to flooding). We coped perfectly well; yes, it's annoying, but at the end of the day you have to make the best of what you've got, and as long as the horses are able to have their legs stretched everyday and measures are taken to minimise boredom (radio on, stable toys, licks, etc) then I don't see a problem.
Lots of people jump on the 'It's not natural for a horse to be cooped up 24/7' bandwagon; however, it's not natural for a horse to be ridden, nor to have a metal bit in its mouth or metal shoes on its feet...so I don't really see the substance in that argument...

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finally someone who has the same issues I do!!!


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## jellycat (16 August 2011)

Lots of people jump on the 'It's not natural for a horse to be cooped up 24/7' bandwagon; however, it's not natural for a horse to be ridden, nor to have a metal bit in its mouth or metal shoes on its feet...so I don't really see the substance in that argument...[/QUOTE]


I'm not jumping on any bandwagons, just talking from experience. I had a nightmare with my horse in the winter. She became angry and depressed being in 24/7.  She is a VERY sensitive rescue TB with a history of abuse.  I cannot keep her in unless the ground is hard with ice and she has no company in the field (I make sure she is rugged up and toastie).  I appreciate what you are saying... being in is best for your horse.   Just like being out is best for mine.  I did do my research about why my mare reacted so badly to being in all the time. There is plenty of scientific evidence which shows they need the nutrients from the grass, the vitamin D from the sun on their backs and socialisation.


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## SecretSquirrell379 (16 August 2011)

jellycat said:



			I'm not jumping on any bandwagons, just talking from experience. I had a nightmare with my horse in the winter. She became angry and depressed being in 24/7.  She is a VERY sensitive rescue TB with a history of abuse.  I cannot keep her in unless the ground is hard with ice and she has no company in the field (I make sure she is rugged up and toastie).  I appreciate what you are saying... being in is best for your horse.   Just like being out is best for mine.  I did do my research about why my mare reacted so badly to being in all the time. There is plenty of scientific evidence which shows they need the nutrients from the grass, the vitamin D from the sun on their backs and socialisation.
		
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Thats what I agree with, you have to do what is right for your horse, horses for courses as they say


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## maxapple (16 August 2011)

I used to have my horse at a livery yard where the grazing was awful in the winter. He was turned out at 7am and would mooch around for a bit, then just stand at the gate for hours looking miserable until he was brought in again. I would often go up early and bring him in and he would be much happier in his stable with a nice hay net out of the cold. 

He also ended up with a broken leg after being kicked in the field in November - probably because there were too many horses out there figting over lack of grass.

I am now at a yard with fab grazing where in the winter he will stay out for a good 10 hours and be happy. 

So I suppose it depends on the situation you are in. I would just want my horse to be happy and to have food, so if we didn't have grazing I'd have to think carefully about the merits of putting him out.


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## _MizElz_ (16 August 2011)

I'm not jumping on any bandwagons, just talking from experience. I had a nightmare with my horse in the winter. She became angry and depressed being in 24/7.  She is a VERY sensitive rescue TB with a history of abuse.  I cannot keep her in unless the ground is hard with ice and she has no company in the field (I make sure she is rugged up and toastie).  I appreciate what you are saying... being in is best for your horse.   Just like being out is best for mine.  I did do my research about why my mare reacted so badly to being in all the time. There is plenty of scientific evidence which shows they need the nutrients from the grass, the vitamin D from the sun on their backs and socialisation.
		
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Jellycat - the point you're making is one I agree with 100% - my bandwagon comment was not aimed at you, more at people who are so blinkered that they adopt the 'my way or the highway' outlook. Every horse IS different, and I think that the mark of a good owner is possessing the patience, ability etc to assess the needs of YOUR horse and adjust their provision accordingly. which you clearly do, as do I! It just so happens that our horses are the opposite of each other....but I would suggest that neither of us are acting wrongly


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## jellycat (16 August 2011)

_MizElz_ said:



			Jellycat - the point you're making is one I agree with 100% - my bandwagon comment was not aimed at you, more at people who are so blinkered that they adopt the 'my way or the highway' outlook. Every horse IS different, and I think that the mark of a good owner is possessing the patience, ability etc to assess the needs of YOUR horse and adjust their provision accordingly. which you clearly do, as do I! It just so happens that our horses are the opposite of each other....but I would suggest that neither of us are acting wrongly 

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We can agree there then  I am all about getting to know your own horse and what he/she needs.  There is never a one-size-fits-all and I would certainly disapprove of someone far more who turned their horse out when it was unsuitable or caused distress just for the sake of turning them out. For example, my girl HATES being turned out alone and suffers from severe separation anxiety due to her past. So, if my choice was to keep her in or turn her out alone I would certainly keep her stabled until a field mate was available. Thank you for your response.


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## cbmcts (16 August 2011)

GingerCat said:



			So it's OK my other's to make generalised comments but not me?

A lot of the comments on this thread have been 'harsh', but obviously it's OK for some to make them but not others.

No I haven't seen every retirement home in this country, have you?


But I have seen a fair few, when my horse was injured and had to be retired 3 years ago. That's why I made the decison to keep him with me where I knew he would be cared for properly. I felt I owe him that much.
		
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If you actually read the whole of my post that you referred to, I said that while no winter TO was unacceptable for me and mine I didn't make any harsh comments about anyone who didn't feel the same as I do.

I answered your question about whether anyone had decided not to have a horse because there wasn't regular winter turn out available. 

I certainly didn't suggest that you PTS your horse because he isn't kept as I would keep him. That would be both rude and ignorant. Nor was it generalised comment - it was directly to me so excuse me if I call you on it.

While you are entitled to your opinions, as is everybody here you cannot (or should not?) complain about being judged while you do that extremely rudely IMO.


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## JFTDWS (16 August 2011)

GingerCat said:



			So it's OK my other's to make generalised comments but not me?

A lot of the comments on this thread have been 'harsh', but obviously it's OK for some to make them but not others.
		
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Actually, it's you who is claiming that the rest of us who do believe winter turnout is essential, are all privileged hypocrites who only value turnout because we have it.  That is grossly unfair - I've sacrificed a lot of facilities e.g. school, people around to check ponies / do services etc, and have to devote a lot more time maintaining privately rented paddocks than I would at livery, solely because I *wasn't satisfied with the turnout available on those yards*.  And I'm pleased I do - I'm not complaining, it's more than worth it.  I have a friend who lives in central London, whose horse simply isn't happy without good turnout, all year.  She sacrifices an enormous amount of time travelling, and compromises on facilities and access to competitions for her horse.  I'm not saying *you* should do this - that's none of my business - I'm simply saying that some of us choose to.

It's quite offensive for you to suggest that all horse owners share your priorities and that the rest of us are simply more fortunate in our location.


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## Toffee44 (19 August 2011)

Whoa gingercat where did you come from???

Anyways thanks for ALL the replies. Whilst I have been looking for yards I was shocked that your average DIYer type livery didnt always have turnout. I just thought it was a higher up competition thing not to have turnout. 

Was just being nosey at opinions on the matter. And if anyone thought the same as me. 

I truely believe that some horses cannot cope without turnout. Toffee is retired, "chucked out in a field" gets a cuddle every day rarely bought in and groomed :O, but if I was to stable her even now she would go bonkers!!! Samba (has had full turnout for a year with me) has been on livery for two weeks, coming in at night (out 6-6) and shes at the gate waiting for me to bring her in. We had a issue when it was raining (apparantly she will melt or something if she stepped out of that stable door!!) I reminded her that she was part welsh and threw her out  but I couldnt leave her in all winter. Of course there are gonna be days she doesnt go out, thats livery life for you but thats all. As for Jake the clyde cross you could probably make him live in a horse box and he wouldnt care lol.

There was a yard near me in Canterbury that had a good solution. They had about 5/6 horses in a barn with a deep straw bed and they didnt get turnout out over the winter due to low grazing but they were happy healthy horses who had a social life.


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## Enfys (19 August 2011)

Wagtail said:



			However, if it is just TURNOUT people are demanding, then livery yards would need to invest in the building of all weather turnouts which again, for some, would not be financially feasible.
		
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This ^  

Turnout is turnout, that is, room to move about and do whatever they want, they don't need a huge area, it is irrelevant whether there is grass to eat or not. My stallion lives out in a paddock, which according to Planimeter is .63 of an acre, on paper that isn't a lot of space, in reality it_ is _perfectly adequate, it isn't expected to sustain him, he has hay 24/7 every day of the year,_ if _he wants it.


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## Marydoll (19 August 2011)

Oh this is a hot topic 
I have 3 horses and have had my own leased stables and liveried on yards.
My priority is good grazing and all year turnout for my horses, if you dont provide it iwont be there , my choice i pay the bill.
And yes i would drive a 40 mile round trip to give my horse this, as i have in the past it is that important to me, or rather my horses, to be able to get out all year.
I have also found myself on a yard where the owner lied through his teeth to fill his place then said no turnout, you could turnout in the indoor arena, wonderful, i ride through the day, he suggested i ride among the horses, what a freaking idiot!! ..... I was out of there by the end of the week, again, my choice, along with the majority of his liveries.
I can think of nothing worse for a horse than being cooped up in a stable 24/7
And i wouldnt do that to any of mine..
I think with livery yards you get what you settle for and i wouldnt settle for no turnout


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