# ragwort I have had it with the myths



## EstherHegt (13 June 2012)

As a horse owner I know you have to do good pasture management. Good management can prevent ragwort and that it is the key. Digging and pulling can make it worse. If horses are starving you force them to eat. That is not the plants problem, that is a management problem.
I love horses and ragwort and did a lot of investigation about the plant. Today I was looking in my archives and I found it remarkable that all the fear in UK came from one source. Everebody did repeat that source, that source is prof Knottenbelt, he is the one who make people afraid! One source!!!  But there are much more sources who completely say different things, there is a lot of scientific info about ragwort, we don t 'need need  fear and Chinese whispers. 
All the fear is copied to other countries. All the money spent at ragwort act etc would better spent at education about how to prevent you have ragwort in the pasture. Fear is not a good thing to listen at. 
At my Dutch website we get a lot of mails for determination off the plant, most are different yellow plants! Go ask please, go search please to the sources of the myths. Ask the figures, in the Netherlands that worked good.  We had a ragwort symposium with a lot of experts, do the same we did and stop this fear. Good hay is important and good pasture management.  Look in the archives of the papers in England and you will see , there is only one source for the panic.

Maybe a poll is also a good option,  with good questions, like did they a post mortem, was it in the food, wich lab did it etc. We did it, and only a few responses. And yes I also lost a horse with kliverfailure, she was only 6 years old, but it was NOT ragwort.


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## Star_Chaser (13 June 2012)

I'm sorry but I would still choose to pull ragwort to get rid of it just don't want the risk whether its myth or not.


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## Kallibear (13 June 2012)

??

Maybe it's your english but I haven't really got a clue what you're on about? What 'myth'?

Ragwort is posionous to ALL animals, inc sheep and cattle as well as humans and dogs and cats.

I've known a couple of animals die of ragwort posioning. I've also dissected plenty of sheep, couple cattle and one horse with severe liver damage caused by ragwort (the scarring you get is quite distinctive).


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## MerrySherryRider (13 June 2012)

I remember you and your 'save-ragwort' agenda. Go away.


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## Stinkbomb (13 June 2012)

Im with kallibear, ive no idea what your talking about???

ETA... Well thats a new one on me.... a ragwort lover?????


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## EstherHegt (13 June 2012)

Kallibear said:



			??

Maybe it's your english but I haven't really got a clue what you're on about? What 'myth'?

Ragwort is posionous to ALL animals, inc sheep and cattle as well as humans and dogs and cats.

I've known a couple of animals die of ragwort posioning. I've also dissected plenty of sheep, couple cattle and one horse with severe liver damage caused by ragwort (the scarring you get is quite distinctive).
		
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Ragwort is poisonous yes, but not for all animals, dogs and cats and humanns don't eat hay, sheep have  a different metabolism then horses, and are much more tolerant. A  horse don't eat fresh ragwort, n hay they don't taste it. Ask at the labs, ask by DEFRA how many animals died at ragwort. Ask them also how many at grass sickness or other poisonous plants. Try to look in perspective of the problem, are ther not bigger health problems, like neglect?


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## EstherHegt (13 June 2012)

horserider said:



			I remember you and your 'save-ragwort' agenda. Go away.
		
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Can you tell me where, and give a link or some?


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## Stinkbomb (13 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Can you tell me where, and give a link or some?
		
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Think you only need to look at your past history top answer that one??

Sorry but if its in my field, its coming out...


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## MerrySherryRider (13 June 2012)

Troll.


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## Stinkbomb (13 June 2012)

horserider said:



			Troll.
		
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Not sure they are.. think they just have a genuine love of the yellow stuff.... each to their own...


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## Capriole (13 June 2012)

horserider said:



			I remember you and your 'save-ragwort' agenda. Go away.
		
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Yes, please do go away with your incessant pro-ragwort rantings.


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## Capriole (13 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Can you tell me where, and give a link or some?
		
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That would be _every single post you have made on here_. I'm pretty sure I've seen you on other forums as well.


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## Kallibear (13 June 2012)

Having just investigated and realised the OP is weirdo with a love for ragwort, I retract my orginal post!

It IS posionous to horses and any owner who deliberatly lets their horse have access to it is negligent and cruel. End of.


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## rhino (13 June 2012)

Stinkbomb said:



			Im with kallibear, ive no idea what your talking about???

ETA... Well thats a new one on me.... a ragwort lover?????
		
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I think the correct term is ragwort 'enthusiast' 



EstherHegt said:



			Try to look in perspective of the problem, are ther not bigger health problems, like neglect?
		
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  I think we owe our own horses the best of care, which involves removing all poisonous and toxic plants from their pasture. Common sense, no? And yes, I have dealt with numerous ragwort toxicity cases on a professional level. I have also read up a fair bit of research, both pre-dating Professor Knottenbelt's work and entirely unconnected with it


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## Roasted Chestnuts (13 June 2012)

Kallibear said:



			Having just investigated and realised the OP is weirdo with a love for ragwort, I retract my orginal post!

It IS posionous to horses and any owner who deliberatly lets their horse have access to it is negligent and cruel. End of.
		
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Some people cannot help having it nomatter how much money, time and effort they put into removing it.

I spent an average of 12 to 14 hours a week last year helping a friend spray and rip out ragwort, we went to the tip 4/5 times with full horse trailer loads of the yellow stuff (brown after spraying of course) to get rid of it.

However fields surrounding it are FULL and I mean FULL of it. Complained to the council, yep that did alot of good, complained to DEFRA that did even less.

So again this year currently going round spraying AGAIN by hand as fields are too steep for a tractor and all the spraying does is kill the ragwort AND the grass and leave us with more and more docken plants as the grass dies off.

What can you do in that scenario?? The horses WONT eat it unless starving and I dont think our guys will starve considering they are brought in everynight and 2 horses on 3 acres (split into 3 fields), so I thinkthat your sweeping statement on negligent owners KB (and not because we dont really get on but Id challenge that from anyone) isnt really fair when you cant stop the surrounding people from not eradicating it.


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## Oberon (13 June 2012)

Ok, OP. I'll bite.

Why do you love Ragwort?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (13 June 2012)

Just to say I HATE the yellow stuff with a passion but I hat ignorant lazy farmers more


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## Oberon (13 June 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			Just to say I HATE the yellow stuff with a passion but I hat ignorant lazy farmers more 

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Amen


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## Kallibear (13 June 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			Some people cannot help having it nomatter how much money, time and effort they put into removing it.

I spent an average of 12 to 14 hours a week last year helping a friend spray and rip out ragwort, we went to the tip 4/5 times with full horse trailer loads of the yellow stuff (brown after spraying of course) to get rid of it.

However fields surrounding it are FULL and I mean FULL of it. Complained to the council, yep that did alot of good, complained to DEFRA that did even less.

So again this year currently going round spraying AGAIN by hand as fields are too steep for a tractor and all the spraying does is kill the ragwort AND the grass and leave us with more and more docken plants as the grass dies off.

What can you do in that scenario?? The horses WONT eat it unless starving and I dont think our guys will starve considering they are brought in everynight and 2 horses on 3 acres (split into 3 fields), so I thinkthat your sweeping statement on negligent owners KB (and not because we dont really get on but Id challenge that from anyone) isnt really fair when you cant stop the surrounding people from not eradicating it.
		
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You live in Lanark, yes? One of the worse affected areas in Britain and I really don't envy you. I've driven through many times and seen fields where they appear to be growing ragwort as a crop  AND have cattle/sheep/horses on it 

You are not _deliberatly _allowing your horses access: by the sound of it your put a huge amount of effort in to controlling it! Maybe my common should have read 'deliberate access with no effort being made to control it'. Not the same as the OP who seems to be suggesting cultivating the damn stuff!


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## Roasted Chestnuts (13 June 2012)

Kallibear said:



			You live in Lanark, yes? One of the worse affected areas in Britain and I really don't envy you. I've driven through many times and seen fields where they appear to be growing ragwort as a crop  AND have cattle/sheep/horses on it 

You are not _deliberatly _allowing your horses access: by the sound of it your put a huge amount of effort in to controlling it! Maybe my common should have read 'deliberate access with no effort being made to control it'. Not the same as the OP who seems to be suggesting cultivating the damn stuff!
		
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Yup farmers dont care as they take the cows etc out before there is too little grass to have the beasts NEED to eat it so they dont are that it spreads everywhere. Its horrid stuff and I end up minging after pullin it and my hands stink for days even with repeated scrubbings and gloves 

Government just doesnt impse heavy enough fines OR any help for those who just CANNOT get rid of the blurry stuff  

Yeah we try but there is always some there but the nags dont eat it as they ahve enough to eat. I actually like winter in these fields as there is NONE!!


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## Box_Of_Frogs (13 June 2012)

Listen up EH and listen good. Horses DO eat ragwort if their shite owners leave them in shite "pasture" where the only green thing is ragwort. They can even develop a taste for the bitterness of it. It has a cumulative effect so stunned owners often see the effects of ragwort damage even if they have owned their horse or pony for years and have religiously pulled or poisoned every ragwort plant for miles around. For your information, Professor Derek Knottenbelt is a WORLD expert on liver damage in horses not just some back street twonk. I took on a rescued gipsy cob a few years ago. She was suffering from acute ragwort poisoning. With the Professor's help, I pulled her back from the brink of death and she enjoyed 4 more years of happy and active life. She was being kept in a foul "field" where the broken farm machinery littering the land had already claimed the life of her tiny foal because the owners had put a webbing headcollar on the 8 week old foal and she had caught it on the derelict machinery and had been hanged. Her dam had been forced to eat ragwort in a last ditch, desperate attempt to have enough milk for her foal. This next bit is for YOU to read EH: when she came to me she was almost too weak to stand. She was skin and bone, maybe a condition score .5. Her entire head looked as though she'd pushed it into a bonfire, so bad was the acute photosensitivity that ragwort causes. She had lost all interest in life and living. She was almost at the end stage where the horse will press its head against a wall in a corner. There was blood in her urine. Her liver function results were ghastly. Her blood didn't clot properly. Ragwort damaged livers cannot regenerate so this little mare always walked a knife edge re her liver health and when the end started, she went downhill with terrifying rapidity. End stage liver failure includes collapse, bloat, blindness, neurological damage, self harm and awful vocalisations and gaits as the horse tries to flee from its own body. It is one of the most awful and distressing things you would ever see and the only humane thing to do, long before the horse reaches that point, is euthanasia.

Until you have seen what ragwort can do EH, I suggest you drop Professor Knottenbelt an e-mail and ask him for the evidence that has led him to be the world expert that he is. Better yet, why not ask him if you could drop in when he has his next ragwort case in so you can take the role of interested bystander and watch what happens. Or you could try eating it yourself for a few months, in the interests of science, and then maybe report back to this Forum? 

Please, until you know what you're talking about, keep your character slurs and ignorance to yourself.


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## hairycob (13 June 2012)

I take it the OP has never seen a horse dying of ragwort poisoning.
Also sheep & cattle are affected by ragwort if they eat it but are usually slaughtered for other reasons before the effects are noticeable.


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## lazybee (13 June 2012)

I have to say one thing about Ragwort. When I moved to France I was told by quite a few people Ragwort doesn't grow in France, so when I found it growing in my fields I thought I'd take some to our Vets (the biggest in the area) for confirmation. At the vet we consulted the official French guide to toxic plants and confirmed it was Senecio jacobaea; which states 'a horse will have to eat between 5 and 25% of body weight to cause damage or death'. Ragwort is only designated as medium risk; with many more plants higher up the scale. I can't believe there's so much difference in the the stance between two countries.

I still pull it when I see though and as I cut my own hay, I make sure there's none in my bales. Old habits die hard.


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## ragwortsense (13 June 2012)

Finally, a bit of sense from Box_Of_Frogs. 'Horses DO eat ragwort if their shite owners leave them in shite "pasture" where the only green thing is ragwort. They can even develop a taste for the bitterness of it.'

Exactly. It's the owners not the plant.

Horse owners love to blame the plant or the landowner or anybody else except themselves for the problems ragwort can cause.

There is an almost complete logic blackout when it comes to this plant. Take Prof Knottenbelt's famous picture of an emaciated horse in a pasture with ragwort. How do we know there is ragwort in the pasture? That would be because we can see the plants and they are all uneaten.

I made an FOI request last year to the Philip Leverhulme Equine Hospital  and their figures for horses with liver failure were a fraction of the claims made by Knottenbelt. I questioned him about his published claim that there are at least 1,000 deaths a year and he replied that he ALWAYS said there were 500.

Esther's point (and well done to all those who have mocked her English - perhaps you'd like to reply in Dutch next time) is that targeting this one plant and perpetuating the myths about it risks damaging horses because the real risks to health are ignored.

I'm sure everybody here genuinely takes good care of their animals and wants to ensure they are not exposed to harm (and, of course, removing ragwort from pasture and developing a good sward to keep it out is a sensible part of that) so why do you defend those who persist in exposing animals to risk by buying cheap hay or, even, renting cheap pasture?


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## MerrySherryRider (13 June 2012)

ragwortsense said:



			Finally, a bit of sense from Box_Of_Frogs. 'Horses DO eat ragwort if their shite owners leave them in shite "pasture" where the only green thing is ragwort. They can even develop a taste for the bitterness of it.'

Exactly. It's the owners not the plant.

Horse owners love to blame the plant or the landowner or anybody else except themselves for the problems ragwort can cause.

There is an almost complete logic blackout when it comes to this plant. Take Prof Knottenbelt's famous picture of an emaciated horse in a pasture with ragwort. How do we know there is ragwort in the pasture? That would be because we can see the plants and they are all uneaten.

I made an FOI request last year to the Philip Leverhulme Equine Hospital  and their figures for horses with liver failure were a fraction of the claims made by Knottenbelt. I questioned him about his published claim that there are at least 1,000 deaths a year and he replied that he ALWAYS said there were 500.

Esther's point (and well done to all those who have mocked her English - perhaps you'd like to reply in Dutch next time) is that targeting this one plant and perpetuating the myths about it risks damaging horses because the real risks to health are ignored.

I'm sure everybody here genuinely takes good care of their animals and wants to ensure they are not exposed to harm (and, of course, removing ragwort from pasture and developing a good sward to keep it out is a sensible part of that) so why do you defend those who persist in exposing animals to risk by buying cheap hay or, even, renting cheap pasture?
		
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I don't understand your logic. How does controlling ragwort stop owners from taking other preventative measures to prevent harm to their horses ?

 Don't you think its the owners who control ragwort, who are more likely to be poo picking, cleaning water troughs, removing dangerous objects from the field and ensuring the paddocks don't become overrun with weeds ?

 Irresponsible owners who leave horses in ragwort paddocks are by definition, less likely to practice good land management.

I remember you too, you tend to pop up when Ragwort Lover woman appears. You're either a friend of hers or you google constantly for any mention of the weed. You'd do much more for the environment if you put your energy into preserving hedgerows.


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## sbloom (13 June 2012)

I think I agree with everyone here - a deadly plant to horses in some circumstances, which are not predictable (ie not all horses need to be starving to eat it), but also just one of the hazards our horses face.  I can't see how pulling it before flowering helps propogate it is carefully removed?  Is it as problematic as say, ground elder, where any tiny little bit of root left will grow a new plant?  I don't know.

I do also know that it is the only food of one particular caterpillar, and it would be great if we could leave pockets of it but only away from where horses are grazing. I have seen it in Battle Great Woods in East Sussex, covered in these caterpillars, but it is in the middle of the woods and the seeds would struggle to reach pasture.


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## ragwortsense (13 June 2012)

horserider 

It is perfectly simple. There would be less harm caused by ragwort if the focus was on ensuring it doesn't get into conserved forage. 

Have you read this*? http://www.susan-white.co.uk/index....ase-studies-2/maizey-horse-ragwort-poisoning/

'With still no confirmation of it being Ragwort all the horses were still being fed the contaminated hay'

It is, of course, impossible to be certain but some of these animals might have survived if the owner and the vet had been more aware of the danger of ragwort in feed.

*Ignore the nonsense about the 'magic potions'.


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## MerrySherryRider (13 June 2012)

Thanks *sbloom*, you've reminded me of their hidden agenda. Personally, I'd rather prevent horses from suffering an agonising death.

 Their campaign of twisted truths and untruths on horse forums is pretty distasteful.

Fortunately, most horse people are not stupid enough to fall for it.


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## touchstone (13 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Ragwort is poisonous yes, but not for all animals, dogs and cats and humanns don't eat hay, sheep have  a different metabolism then horses, and are much more tolerant. A  horse don't eat fresh ragwort, n hay they don't taste it. Ask at the labs, ask by DEFRA how many animals died at ragwort. Ask them also how many at grass sickness or other poisonous plants. Try to look in perspective of the problem, are ther not bigger health problems, like neglect?
		
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If sheep are much more tolerant than horses to ragwort, then is surely makes it even more important to get rid of the stuff?

A horse WILL eat fresh ragwort, there are cases where horses appear to have developed a taste for it, and a horse can also accidentally nibble at leaves while grazing.  If they don't taste it in hay then that makes it even more dangerous.
Neglect is a huge problem, but liver poisoning is not pleasant for any horse to suffer and I can't see why anyone would consider it a non-issue. 

There are fields full of the weed near me, I certainly won't be  ignoring it, it spreads like wildfire and removal is good pasture managemnt.


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## Dolcé (13 June 2012)

What fear are we talking about OP?  I am not afraid of ragwort, it is a beautiful plant, but I don't allow it to grow in our fields.  We control it because it is harmful to our animals, we also make hay and need to ensure it is ragwort free so that we can feed it to our animals.  Professor Knottenbelt hasn't caused fear, he is a scientist (and quite a good one at that! ) and has simply published the results of his research.  I understand, that in this country at least, owners can be prosecuted for allowing horses to graze in ragwort infested fields, another incentive for removing it perhaps!  I don't particularly worry about my horses eating it in the field, they have plenty of grass, but I wouldn't want them ingesting or inhaling the seeds which also cause damage nor would I want them seeding and allowing new growth.


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## Amymay (13 June 2012)

Kallibear said:



			??

Maybe it's your english but I haven't really got a clue what you're on about? What 'myth'?
		
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Phew, I thought it was just me......


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## EstherHegt (13 June 2012)

amymay said:



			Phew, I thought it was just me......
		
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here are the myths http://www.ragwort.org.uk/facts-or-myths

at the background page are the facts and solutions.


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## Amymay (13 June 2012)

Thanks Esther.

Ragwort can indeed be (is in fact) a valuable plant for wildlife.  However, not for our equine friends.


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## NoseyPosey (13 June 2012)

ragwortsense said:



			Esther's point (and well done to all those who have mocked her English - *perhaps you'd like to reply in Dutch next time*)
		
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If it was a Dutch website then yes I would pretty much the same as when I lived on the Dutch/German border but seeing as the website has .co.uk after the domain name, I think I'll use my mother tongue thankyou very much


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## Kallibear (13 June 2012)

Your site rather proves OUR point, not yours?! You haven't dispelled the myths, you've confirmed them?!

Is ragwart posionous: yes

Does is spread like wildfire due to thousands of seeds: yes

Does is loose it's taste when dried (but not it's toxicity): yes

Some of your facts are misleading at best however: although the toxin is indeed broken down/excrete within a few days, it does considerabe, IRREVERSIBLE liver damage whilst there. That's the real danger of ragwort: unlike many causes of liver damage, ragwort-posioned liver cannot regerate. So no, the _posion _is not cumilative but the _damage_certainly is.

And 'not absorbed through the skin': basically you've said 'not sure, possibly' but have decided you don't like Proffessor Knottenbelt very much and will therefore poo-poo his research, just in case. Despite WHO research suggesting that in fact it CAN be absorded through the skin (albeit mimimally). Personally I'd rather not take the risk. 

All you've basically said is that the horse has to actuall die to be classed as a 'victim' of ragwart. I'd rather my horse didn't get to that stage, thanks!


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## EstherHegt (13 June 2012)

NoseyPosey said:



			If it was a Dutch website then yes I would pretty much the same as when I lived on the Dutch/German border but seeing as the website has .co.uk after the domain name, I think I'll use my mother tongue thankyou very much
		
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You didn't read anyway, at the frontpage of the UK domain is written
"This website is the English version of our Dutch Ragwort website."


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## fatpiggy (13 June 2012)

Now let me see. I can listen to the well-researched views of an expert vet with decades of experience, or I can listen to your single opinion gleaned from seeing what other people pass around on the internet a la Wikipaedia. Three guesses who I believe?   Of course sheep are affected by ragwort. They just react more slowly than most horses and as the majority are slaughtered when their ages are still counted in months, the symptoms go unnoticed.   Ragwort is an alien species, brought to the UK in the 1800s by a University botanist. It then escaped and spread systematically around the countryside, making particular use of the then, new, railway network.


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## Wagtail (13 June 2012)

OP, are you an orange and black caterpillar by any chance?


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## NoseyPosey (13 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			You didn't read anyway, at the frontpage of the UK domain is written
"This website is the *English* version of our Dutch Ragwort website."
		
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Precisely - this is the English version, where we speak English.

So you have a dedicated Dutch ragwort site? Blimey now that IS dedication!


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## Stinkbomb (13 June 2012)

Wagtail said:



			OP, are you an orange and black caterpillar by any chance?
		
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LOL!!!


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## ragwortsense (13 June 2012)

Kallibear 

You've given a perfect demonstration of what Esther Hegt started this thread for.

'Despite WHO research suggesting that in fact it CAN be absorded through the skin (albeit mimimally).' Can you provide a link to the primary research because I haven't found one and I have looked?

Research on comfrey that has similar toxins has found that around 6kg of ragwort would be a fatal dose to a human if ingested. Absorbtion is about 20 times less effective so a human would need 120kg on the skin to reach a fatal dose.

Knottenbelt's claim was based on deeply flawed research techniques and it has never been replicated. Replication is a crucial part of proper science.

No-one is saying ragwort is not toxic and no-one is saying it can cause problems for horses but, as you've demonstrated, people persist in believing a lot of nonsense such as 'it spreads like wildfire' and then, when asked to support their belief in these myths they resort to abuse.

fatpiggy

You've done the same thing 'Ragwort is an alien species, brought to the UK in the 1800s by a University botanist.' That is Oxford ragwort, Senecio squaladis, not common ragwort. People use the myth that ragwort is non-native to support calls for its eradication.

NoseyPosey 

Good attempt at obsfuscation. No-one is saying you should actually reply in Dutch. My point, as I'm sure you understand, is that there was no need for people to attack Esther Hegt because English is not her native language. That only makes the poster look boorish.

Many of the myths about ragwort result in it spreading more than it would if people followed the science.  

But, that's enough for me. Esther was foolish to open this thread. She made the mistake of assuming that this forum was used by people who care about understanding the best ways to look after their animals.


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## Amymay (13 June 2012)

She made the mistake of assuming that this forum was used by people who care about understanding the best ways to look after their animals.
		
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Why is not wanting our stock to eat ragwort, not looking after them........????


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## Capriole (13 June 2012)

ragwortsense said:



			But, that's enough for me. Esther was foolish to open this thread. She made the mistake of assuming that this forum was used by people who care about understanding the best ways to look after their animals.
		
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Oh, really. Because we dont agree with you or the other poster, we dont care about our animals?  I dont know how youve got to that conclusion. 

 Jog on.


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## EstherHegt (13 June 2012)

amymay said:



			Why is not wanting our stock to eat ragwort, not looking after them........????
		
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Not every plot of land with grass on it, is a field! Would you let your horse graze on a plot with old machinery, or with a fence of barbered wire, or with broken glass or old rusty nails in it, hopefully not! Why dare you call a plot of land with poisoning plants like ragwort , which it certainly is, a suitable horsefield?
Or why do you discriminate, there are a lot of plants that could be found on a plot of land like comfrey, coltsfoot, hemp-agrimony, viper's burglove and  hound's tongue. All contain the same toxic as ragwort, did you know this? Some even recommendend as wonderful herbs ? Would you really get all of them out of your country, well out of a plot of land you would call a horse field for certain, but there is no need to get them out of everywere! 
Inhaling spores from a plant like ragwort is a first class myth, there are no spores! Writing it down is only because someone told it to you, you didn't take te time to control the facts. Maybe you mean pollen, even they are not poisionous when inhaling them, the only risk is there when you got a allergy for this type of plant, this add the risk dat all fine dust has on your airways is made it into a advice to not to inhale lots of pollen, but this is meant the same from sawdust or any other smal particles. 
Toutching it, same story, lots of people are sensitive or allergic to plants , not only ragwort, but lots of planst from this same family, that is why the advise is there to use allways gloves.
Why is pulling up the yellow flowerstalk not field maintenance, because most of the plants need 2 seasons to come to the flowering state, where where you last year?
It is no more then a next to best when you want to go hay making, but for grazing land it is bullocks, why, it isn't neccesary to flew new seads in from a neighbouring field, verge or railway, the seeds are most of the time where they sprout in your own land! Every hole you make and don't repair at once is the making of a perfect crib for the next ragwort offspring of the past!
So yes, digging or pulling ragwort isn't a good and practical way of pasture management, a grazing field isn't a lot different of a patatofield, you have to take your measures and countermeasures to keep a field full of edible grasses in stead of a heaven for plants like ragwort, the wrong choices make your field equal to a plot of land witch isn't usefull and safe for horses and its us the owners who puts them there! Every in flower ragwort plant you take up have had the posibility to harm your horse, before you take it up! But to be harmfull it must be in reach of a eating horse!
Would you tolerate a tree like black walnut or a yew in your pasture, or in the reach of any of your horses, no, because they are poisionous, the same with ragwort, not every plot of land is suitable for grazing animals, even if it's already there, it will be us who puts that horse in and at risk! Better horsemanship, first action taken to make the plot of land in a safe field for grazing is and always would be the only possible outcome.
There is no need to shoot the messenger, look for the facts, read scientific papers, they are lucky for you almost all written in plain english and make your mind up on facts!Don't stop by the plain text, look up who did write it, is it in his field of knowledge, is there a second independent writer or more which agree with what is in the paper!
Learn not only about the needs of horses, but also the needs of a field when you use one! Stop believing and repeat what you once is told, make up your knowledge and use it wisely.
Some horseowners will then find out that they are not the pasturekeeper they would be, no time ,no knowledge, no usable land but then you should make yourself think very hard, can you hire knowledge or is it no longer possible to be the good horsekeeper you would want to be and seek other solutions, your horse never may be the sad outcome of your practices or the ones that you didn't achieve!!!
And yes, a horse putting up in a field full of poisionous plants like ragwort of which other type of plant is a deadly risk! It is everywhere in the world our duty to fulfil the needs of our horses, not your neighbour, your landlord, yardowner, railway or road maintenance!


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## Amymay (13 June 2012)

Not every plot of land with grass on it, is a field!
		
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Obviously.




			Would you let your horse graze on a plot with old machinery, or with a fence of barbered wire, or with broken glass or old rusty nails in it,
		
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Of course not.





			Why dare you call a plot of land with poisoning plants like ragwort , which it certainly is, a suitable horsefield?
		
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I haven't.


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## Wagtail (13 June 2012)

Look, OP, I really don't understand what you are worried about. Ragwort isn't, and never will be an endangered plant.


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## NoseyPosey (13 June 2012)

ragwortsense said:



			NoseyPosey 

Good attempt at obsfuscation. No-one is saying you should actually reply in Dutch.
		
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As good as.....



ragwortsense said:



			perhaps you'd like to reply in Dutch next time)
		
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ragwortsense said:



			My point, as I'm sure you understand, is that there was no need for people to attack Esther Hegt because English is not her native language.
		
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They weren't attacking as such, merely stating that they found it hard to get the point that was being made - maybe because of the English used.


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## Wagtail (13 June 2012)

I am really puzzled about what the OP is trying to get across. One minute she says that we should maintain our pasture better, the next, that we should not pull up ragwort. 

What are you saying, OP? I just don't get it. Are you saying that if we maintain our pasture well with edible herbs and grasses, we will not get plants like ragwort? If so, you are wrong. My pasture has loads of money spent on it year after year, with re seeding, harrowing, fertilizing and spot spraying, but I still find new ragwort plants every week. I spot spray them as I find them.


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## smokey (13 June 2012)

Wagtail said:



			OP, are you an orange and black caterpillar by any chance?
		
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Just choked on my coffee! Lol


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## Nick Altena (13 June 2012)

fatpiggy said:



			Now let me see. I can listen to the well-researched views of an expert vet with decades of experience, or I can listen to your single opinion gleaned from seeing what other people pass around on the internet a la Wikipaedia. Three guesses who I believe?   Of course sheep are affected by ragwort. They just react more slowly than most horses and as the majority are slaughtered when their ages are still counted in months, the symptoms go unnoticed.   Ragwort is an alien species, brought to the UK in the 1800s by a University botanist. It then escaped and spread systematically around the countryside, making particular use of the then, new, railway network.
		
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To fatpiggy and all the others who think the same way...
Did you also see the references page of the site of Esther Hegt and who was (and still is) helping her with this site ?

Take a moment to look at that list...
http://www.ragwort.jakobskruiskruid.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14&Itemid=5

Have you checked all the references ?
Now what do you think ?
Are they all talking the same "bullshit" as you think Esther Hegt is ?

You did also checked the refference of the "Knottebelt" version ?....or not ???


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## rhino (13 June 2012)

Oh noes! They appear to be multiplying uncontrollably, just like ragwort  Please save us from this infestation of ragwort enthusiasts!

Ragwort is poisonous to horses, therefore I will not have it in land my horse has access to, along with other poisonous species. End of story. 

I'm not on a 'botanic' cleansing crusade, I am doing what any responsible horse owner would do


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## Horseyscot (13 June 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			Yup farmers dont care as they take the cows etc out before there is too little grass to have the beasts NEED to eat it so they dont are that it spreads everywhere. Its horrid stuff and I end up minging after pullin it and my hands stink for days even with repeated scrubbings and gloves 

Government just doesnt impse heavy enough fines OR any help for those who just CANNOT get rid of the blurry stuff  

Yeah we try but there is always some there but the nags dont eat it as they ahve enough to eat. I actually like winter in these fields as there is NONE!! 

Click to expand...

Don't tar all farmers with the same brush. We are dairy farmers and spray to control ragwort and other weeds. How dare you insinuate that farmers are to blame, some I agree maybe don't care, but some of us do.

Here in Dumfries and Galloway I blame the council more than farmers, there is far more ragwort in the grass verges than in the fields. But hey ho, what would us lazy farmers care anyway?


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## skint1 (13 June 2012)

Well, blow me, I never knew there was such a thing as a ragwort enthusiast-fascinating.  
But you haven't changed my mind


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## cptrayes (13 June 2012)

What on earth is this argument about  ?

Ragwort is abundant in the UK and at no risk of dying out.

Ragwort is poisonous to horses and they will readily eat it when dried, which can happen in the field as well as in hay.

Ragwort is easy to spot and easy to pull up by the roots.

So who in their right minds would not pull it up in a field grazed by horses?

Contrary to what has been written in some posts on this thread I have never, in all the 20 years I have been pulling ragwort from my own field, my neighbours fields and the council's verges, ever had a plant regrow where I pulled it up.

What's the problem, am I missing something  ?



ps when was ragwort made a controlled species by Maff/Defra/whoever? I'm pretty sure it was before Prof Knottenbelt ever started talking about it, no?  ..... edit, just found it. 1959 !!!!


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## cptrayes (13 June 2012)

Do you think there is any chance that Esther is getting a load of complaints from her neighbours about her failure to control ragwort on land bordering theirs? I can't think of any other reason, except perhaps trolling, that would make anyone post a thread like this.

Esther can you please explain your motivation? The plant is not at risk. Removing it does no harm. What are you trying to achieve with this thread?


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## Moomin1 (13 June 2012)

...WTF.....


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## Rowreach (13 June 2012)

I read Esther's papers after she was a bit rude to me on another thread  I like to be balanced about these things.  From what I can gather she thinks that if we keep our fields like our front lawns then we won't have ragwort.  Well, probably not.  My lawn gets mown a couple of times a week during the growing season, so it looks lovely.  Unfortunately my horses like to go out in my fields, so the fields don't look so lovely, and my neighbours aren't nearly so bothered about controlling ragwort as I am, so I have to yank a bit of it up now and then, and I am obsessive about clearing it from my hay fields. Sorry about that Esther.

Esther also poo-pood my assertion that I feel extremely ill after pulling loads of ragwort (I've been at it for years, so have some experience of the plant) and my sure and certain knowledge that people who have burned the weed have ended up in hospital afterwards.  But then she is the expert and I am just a dim horse owner ....

There is plenty round and about for the orange and black stripey squishy things, so I don't feel too badly about depriving them of a small percentage of their food source.

Oh, and a friend's new horse has just been diagnosed with severe ragwort poisoning   On looking at the breeder's website it is interesting to see they graze loads of horses on fields with no grass but a lot of ragwort plants


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## Nick Altena (13 June 2012)

Rowreach said:



			Oh, and a friend's new horse has just been diagnosed with severe ragwort poisoning   On looking at the breeder's website it is interesting to see they graze loads of horses on fields with no grass but a lot of ragwort plants 

Click to expand...

That's amazing ??

Fact: (you can control this fact !! )
Until today there is no test that can proof that only ragwort is the trouble-maker for a diagnose like this.

The only way that you can be sure that ragwort is the cause.... is given you're horse ragworth... and some more ragworth.... and some more ragworth...

I don't think you're friend or the owner before did this ?
And if... Who's to blame than, the plant ? or the one who give it to a horse ?
Having and keeping a horse is also knowing what they can and can't eat....


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## ragwortsense (13 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			ps when was ragwort made a controlled species by Maff/Defra/whoever?
		
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The answer to that is never. The COP under The Ragwort Control Act 2003 says 'It is a specified weed under the Weeds Act 1959.' Not a 'controlled species'.


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## EstherHegt (13 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Esther can you please explain your motivation? The plant is not at risk. Removing it does no harm. What are you trying to achieve with this thread?
		
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Please show me where I tell ragwort is NOT a risk for horses. Can you explain what poo-pood means for the not native speakers? 
By the way, we asked Knottenbelt if he had proove for the skin absoption myt, he informed us by email he has not.
If you become ill, that is possible, http://www.ragwort.org.uk/facts-or-...oning-through-skin-absorption-fact-or-fiction  as yoou can see This allergy can appear after touching or eating the plant. This allergy is not caused by the pyrrolizidine alkaloids but by other substances that are common in many of the members of the Sunflower family (sesquiterpene lactones)


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## Zuzzie (13 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			That's amazing ??

Fact: (you can control this fact !! )
Until today there is no test that can proof that only ragwort is the trouble-maker for a diagnose like this.

The only way that you can be sure that ragwort is the cause.... is given you're horse ragworth... and some more ragworth.... and some more ragworth...

I don't think you're friend or the owner before did this ?
And if... Who's to blame than, the plant ? or the one who give it to a horse ?
Having and keeping a horse is also knowing what they can and can't eat....
		
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Oh for goodness sake! 
Your english is deplorable as is your logic.  Go away!


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## MerrySherryRider (13 June 2012)

Blimey, HHO has a ragwort lover infestation. Just shows how quickly the seeds spread.

BTW, If I've pulled ragwort without wearing gloves, my skin burns far worse than when I've been horseapaulted into a patch of nettles.

Also agree with the poster who says blame the councils (and lovers of unsquashed ragwort loving little creepy crawlies) for failing to control ragwort, rather than farmers.


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## cptrayes (13 June 2012)

ragwortsense said:



			The answer to that is never. The COP under The Ragwort Control Act 2003 says 'It is a specified weed under the Weeds Act 1959.' Not a 'controlled species'.
		
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So why is it a specified weed if it is so harmless? Why isn't every weed in the country specified?


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## cptrayes (13 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Please show me where I tell ragwort is NOT a risk for horses.
		
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This is not relevant to what I asked. What I asked was:

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE WITH THIS THREAD. WHAT DO YOU ACTUALLY WANT US TO DO?

Is it to allow ragwort to grow in our fields? Or for your neighbours to stop bugging you about ragwort that is growing in yours?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (13 June 2012)

The Association for Ragwort Species Enlightenment (ARSE) are certifiably insane. Ragwort is my enemy. If I so much as see an inkling of the devil plant, it is dug up and suffers an excruciating death by burning. This small act brings me great pleasure.


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## EstherHegt (13 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			This is not relevant to what I asked. What I asked was:

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE WITH THIS THREAD. WHAT DO YOU ACTUALLY WANT US TO DO?

Is it to allow ragwort to grow in our fields? Or for your neighbours to stop bugging you about ragwort that is growing in yours?
		
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OK wat I am trying to explain is that you don 't have to be so scared, there is a lot of misinformation at the internet about ragwort, that makes people afraid, and if they want ragwort out of their pasture, they often use methods that are not effective, but can make it worse.
Kottenbelt did create a lot of this myths, like the skin absorption myth, 6500 dead horses a year and so on, but myths don't solve the problem. It is much better to understand what circumstances do ragwort like to grow, prevent that in the pasture, buy good hay without ragwort, and do something about good info, ask Defra for figures, or the uni of Liverpool, ask them how many victims are there really. Look also to other poisonous plants, or very fat horses who develop laminitis, look at fluke, grass sicknes etc, that are much bigger problems.
A very good friend of my did lost a horse possible that was ragwort, the last owner, before they got that horse didn't know ragwort, he mowed it and he fed it to the horse, dried it is a danger. A pasture with no grass but a lot of ragwort is also danger, but you can fight it with good management. Don't put salt in the holes when you dig up the plant, grass wil not grow at such a spot and that prevents a dense sward,  stop please to believe the myths, look at the facts.


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## cptrayes (13 June 2012)

OK We've all looked at the facts.

Now, 


*WHAT DO YOU WANT US TO DO ABOUT THEM THAT WE DON'T DO ALREADY?*


The only advice that I can see that you have given that is any different from what people are already doing is "don't put salt in the holes". Most of us never did. Big deal, is that it?

What is the point of this thread?


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## cptrayes (13 June 2012)

Esther, some advice for you.


If something is dangerous and people treat it as not dangerous, then that is a sensible thing to write a thread about warning people what to do.

If something is only a little dangerous and people treat it as properly dangerous, then there is no point whatsoever exhorting people to "check out the facts" when it's not going to change anyone's behaviour, because it is still dangerous, just not quite as much as they might think.




ps I think you will find that it's a damned sight easier to pull ragwort up when you see it than it is to create conditions in which ragwort does not want to grow. I want my "poor quality" hill wildflower meadow just as it is, attractive to ragwort or not. It's just the ragwort I don't want, so I pull it up. Simples.


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## EstherHegt (13 June 2012)

you can also create hysteria, and that is what happens in UK.


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## cptrayes (13 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			you can also create hysteria, and that is what happens in UK.
		
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But this "hysteria" is entirely harmless!   Why does it bother you so?


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## Nick Altena (13 June 2012)

Zuzzie said:



			Oh for goodness sake! 
Your english is deplorable as is your logic.  Go away!
		
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I just registered here and have read the forum rules.
Maybe you should also ... 

Personal attacks are not allowed

I know that my English writing is not good, I had written this in my signature just for this type of reactions.
Google is a help, but certainly not flawless.
Would you try to write / read Dutch?

Come on, give substantiated answers.
It is not even necessary that they are not of the same idea as that of our
But when you have nothing sensible to say you do not write this type of response
From this we learn nothing ....

Incidentally, we (also) appear here because there are a lot of emails from England include people who have to look further into this issue ...
They hear, see and read other things that we have discovered through years of searching with the help of many professional people /
And coincidence or not, but almost everyone, including in England, one starts from the version of Knottenbelt with statements in mail he has admitted to have made mistakes ....

a question for you:
Any idea how well scientific research works?

A second question:
Why do you think Knottebelts scientific studies about ragwort have never been published or repeated to see what Knottenbelt claimed was true?

Yes he did research about ragwort, but not in the proper scientific way ....
Yet I see on almost any other site in England (but also in other countries that have the same info unthinkingly took over) his statements ....

Facts ?
Here is a link so you can control what i'm writing:
http://www.liv.ac.uk/equine/staff/derekknottenbelt/

The only scientific research publication about the PA's and blood with some work of Knottebelt is this one:
Moore, R.E. Knottenbelt, D. Matthews, J.B. Beynon, R.J. & Whitfield, P.D. (2008) Biomarkers for Ragwort Poisoning in Horses: Identification of Protein Targets.  BMC Veterinary Research MS: 1237079124188210

But this was not specific ragwort PA, there are moor than 6000 ! plants with the (almost) same PA's.

So... this time a normal answer please ?


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## cptrayes (13 June 2012)

Nick as far as I can see no-one is suggesting that horse pasture should be allowed to grow ragwort.

So my question is the same for you, irrespective of what Knottenbelt has or has not published:

what does it matter for us ordinary folk on HHO?


If you and Esther are only on here to try to damage Knottenbelt's reputation can you please go and do it somewhere else?



...


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## MerrySherryRider (13 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			you can also create hysteria, and that is what happens in UK.
		
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Funny that, I've yet to meet an adrenaline fuelled ragwort phobic who rushes out to yank armfuls of the yellow stuff from verges and parks.

 More like a resigned horseowner armed with a fork and black bin bag trudging off with the same relish as they have when filling barrows with horse poo.

Its a necessary evil to be dealt with on grazing land. No hysteria needed.


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## rhino (13 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			a question for you:
Any idea how well scientific research works?

A second question:
Why do you think Knottebelts scientific studies about ragwort have never been published or repeated to see what Knottenbelt claimed was true?
		
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Yes. Funnily enough with degrees in Biochemistry and Medical Diagnostics, and with peer reviewed publications in animal health to my name, I am not the hysterical idiot you seem to assume all HHO users are 

What would be the point really? Ragwort is poisonous to horses, I think we are all agreed on that. I would rather the stingy research budgets available to researchers in the UK was utilised for more important things...  things that would actually make a difference. 

If you're so certain he's wrong, why don't you to raise the money and repeat the research yourself?!

Until then I'll continue to make sure my horses don't have access to Ragwort  as a part of their management.


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## foxy1 (13 June 2012)

Um... I'm so confused by this thread.


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## brighteyes (13 June 2012)

Ragwort has historically been a noxious weed and until quite recently was listed in the Weeds Act 1959 as 'injurous'. Landowners failing to address large scale spreading (and thus onto others' land and causing further problem (crop contamination by alkaloid poisoning) were liable to a fine, so this has long been acknowledged as a 'weed' with a problem above that of being merely undesireable.

For inexplicable reasons, the laws on ragwort control have been relaxed to a point where its spread across England is unstoppable and the plant pretty much contaminates all land now. Even my lawn  

I shall continue to hunt it down and dig it up, spray for it and uproot other locally-growing specimins if I am entitled to - and also if I'm not but stand little chance of being caught doing so. I will continue to check for its presence in my haylage and curse the fact I need to do so. As a responsible horse-owner, that is. 

OP, you are wasting your breath here.


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## EAST KENT (13 June 2012)

Well they are very pretty caterpillers! Seriously,one way of increasing a plant is by root cuttings.So if you pull a ragwort plant out do the remaining shreds of root regenerate into more plants?
   Not suggesting anyone stops their efforts..but in the interest of insect conservation.....


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## Dry Rot (13 June 2012)

As has been stated, ragwort is a noxious weed listed in the Weeds Act 1959, it is also an offence under animal welfare legislation to graze livestock in a field infested with ragwort. Occupiers who receive the Single Farm Payment (i.e. most farmers) are required to control ragwort under Cross Compliance (i.e. it is a condition of receiving their subsidy). Rural Payment and Inspections Directorate inspectors are obliged to act where they notice a breach of cross compliance (e.g. they see ragwort). They do not need to be inspecting the infested holding.

If you see ragwort, please report it to your local office of DEFRA (details at http://www.defra.gov.uk/forms/2011/03/30/weed2-complaint/). I would enclose a covering letter stating that you have also sent a copy of the complaint to your MP. RPID inspectors are public servants paid by us to do a job. If they don't do it, initiate a formal complaint. DEFRA will supply a booklet telling you how!

Yes, it is a long drawn out exercise. But so so worth it to see these lazy beggars being made to do the job they are paid to do for once! That, of course, is if they aren't on strike for bigger pensions!

Oh, I do feel better now!


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## Crugeran Celt (13 June 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			Some people cannot help having it nomatter how much money, time and effort they put into removing it.

I spent an average of 12 to 14 hours a week last year helping a friend spray and rip out ragwort, we went to the tip 4/5 times with full horse trailer loads of the yellow stuff (brown after spraying of course) to get rid of it.

However fields surrounding it are FULL and I mean FULL of it. Complained to the council, yep that did alot of good, complained to DEFRA that did even less.

So again this year currently going round spraying AGAIN by hand as fields are too steep for a tractor and all the spraying does is kill the ragwort AND the grass and leave us with more and more docken plants as the grass dies off.

What can you do in that scenario?? The horses WONT eat it unless starving and I dont think our guys will starve considering they are brought in everynight and 2 horses on 3 acres (split into 3 fields), so I thinkthat your sweeping statement on negligent owners KB (and not because we dont really get on but Id challenge that from anyone) isnt really fair when you cant stop the surrounding people from not eradicating it.
		
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I have the same problem, I pull the ragwort by hand every year(10 acres) but surrounding fields are full of it. Bought our property 19 years ago and I must say it was as bad as neighbouring fields to start with and would take about 2 weeks of up to 6 hours a day with 3 of us pulling it to clear that years growth, now only takes two of us two afternoons work so it is improving year on year. As to it not being poisonous please explain how a friends horse died of ragwort poisoning? Not going to take the chance myself and will continue to pull it. Rag forks are brilliant by the way.


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## Pebble101 (13 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Incidentally, we (also) appear here because there are a lot of emails from England include people who have to look further into this issue ...
They hear, see and read other things that we have discovered through years of searching with the help of many professional people /
And coincidence or not, but almost everyone, including in England, one starts from the version of Knottenbelt with statements in mail he has admitted to have made mistakes ....
		
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Who are 'we'?


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## Alec Swan (13 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			.......

.. the last owner, before they got that horse didn't know ragwort, he mowed it and he fed it to the horse, dried it is a danger. 

.......
		
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As you so rightly say,  time to dispel a few myths!  

Ragwort; 
is poisonous in what ever form.  
It is unpalatable when green,  and is generally only ingested at times of starvation.  Horses can,  when hard pressed,  develop a liking for it.
Different animals have different tolerance levels.  Sheep are high,  and horses are low.
For Ragwort to work efficiently and for it to kill a horse,  there needs to be a substantial intake,  and over an extended period.

There are several ways of ridding land of Ragwort,  so we're told,  but only two actually work;
The most efficient way is to have a grazing regime,  involving sheep.  They seem to like the weed and it doesn't like them!
Ragwort is a bi-annual.  The rosettes which grow this year will become plants next year.
Spraying works,  but the timing is vital,  and so are the chemicals used.  MCPA and Agent 24 D with a decent glueing agent,  Rhino for instance,  are the best method,  and they need to be applied annually,  until the plants have gone.
There is a very real danger with spraying,  and horses.  When the plant starts to die,  the stage when it's turning yellow,  it puts up heavy sugar deposits in an effort to save itself,  and becomes very attractive to equines.  The plant needs to be thoroughly dead and rotted before horses are turned out.
Pulling Ragwort is a waist of time,  in that if the plants are large and strong enough,  the root segments left behind,  will themselves,  turn into plants.

The liver is a curious organ,  in that when half of it is removed,  for the purpose of donation,  for instance,  it recovers within about 6 weeks.  When the liver becomes diseased,  Ragwort,  Liver Fluke,  or booze in humans,  it takes many years to recover,  if at all.

The other major influence over the prolificacy of Ragwort,  is that the plant loves arid or very close cropped ground,  exactly the type of ground on which horses are generally kept.  It doesn't like competing with a dense grass sward,  which is rarely offered to horses.

Alec.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (13 June 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			Don't tar all farmers with the same brush. We are dairy farmers and spray to control ragwort and other weeds. How dare you insinuate that farmers are to blame, some I agree maybe don't care, but some of us do.

Here in Dumfries and Galloway I blame the council more than farmers, there is far more ragwort in the grass verges than in the fields. But hey ho, what would us lazy farmers care anyway?
		
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Im a farmers daughter  (well ex farmers daughter lol my dad no longer farms) and yes the farmers round my friends land ARE lazy, they REFUSE to spray the parks.

Take gumption if you like, winding yourself up over summat thats nothing to do with you is pointless but each to their own after all,  but I NEVER said ALL farmers are lazy I said I hated lazy farmers


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## HappyHooves (13 June 2012)

If I constantly tell forum members about a product in which I have a vested interest, telling them that their opinions are wrong and only 'my' product is right I think I would be hounded out. So, lets remember this about the OP....
"The website 'Ragwort myths and facts' is produced by horse owner Esther Hegt in conjunction with an international array of experts, including Dr Pieter Pelser, who is a world authority on ragwort with a Phd specifically on the plant."
Maybe its a chap with a Phd ( wow!) who has it in for Knottenbelt. Anyway, lets leave the Dutch to their beliefs about a plant that we English, sorry British, think is poisonous to horses.


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## Nick Altena (13 June 2012)

rhino said:



			Yes. Funnily enough with degrees in Biochemistry and Medical Diagnostics, and with peer reviewed publications in animal health to my name, I am not the hysterical idiot you seem to assume all HHO users are 

Click to expand...

I know my Enlgisch is bad... but i also know i never wrote that.
Dont'put me word's in my mouth i never say.




			What would be the point really? Ragwort is poisonous to horses, I think we are all agreed on that. I would rather the stingy research budgets available to researchers in the UK was utilised for more important things...  things that would actually make a difference.
		
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We hope to make some differense in the way a lot of people are thinking (and speaking/writing ) at this moment.
But for me personaly ? 
For me it's enough that people DO think about this subject and look a little further than only Knottebelt's info or the many many site's that only take over the thing's other people written without any control if it's a solid scientifically proven fact , some guesswork !! , or thoughts ... or simply a myth.




			If you're so certain he's wrong, why don't you to raise the money and repeat the research yourself?!
		
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The budget be better spend on better education about ragwort 

Not only for the horse-owners... but also for the people that we (in the Nehterlands see en hear from ( do they have horses alsoo  ?) ... like this one :
http://ragwort-hysteria.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/british-horse-society-spokespersons.html

Or on the BBC Radio Lancashire's breakfast programme for example
http://ragwort-hysteria.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/bbc-posts-biased-items-on-ragwort.html

And that is only a example... there are a lot more of this kinds of education for people .... performed by people without knowing anythink about ragwort...

I also don't have that money , but....
We DO have a lot of friends who helps us for free 
There is no need repeating what he has done.
We know from other studies that some of his allegations are not posible...
We also KNOW that ragwort has Pyrrolizidine Alkaloid and we also know that that PA is not what you want to give you're horse.
We know the facts about this PA that's find in about 6000 plants , and a lot of them already is investigated on what it does in animals en people.
We also know when there is a (high) risk (in hay for example and yes , with occasionally eating fresh )

do not get us wrong !!
In the first instance WE also believed the story's written down on a Dutch site as if it was truth.
Normaly you think when a professor say that kind off stuff... he has done his studies in a thorough way.... until .... we just ask some people some simple  questions  
And there was more than one reason for those questions.

Questions because whe don't believe everythink we see on that specific Dutch site where it was first written.

And of course because we have horses !! and whe also have common ragwort and a lot other plants with this PA toxin in the Netherlands (for years, its not only the last past years growing here) 

So we often want to see some research results ( and that's not only by this subject ragwort !! )
Luck for us... many intresting people want to talk about there studies to intresting people like a horse owner 

We want to know HOW a study is done... 
For example we simple want to know HOW some-one get his/ her's numbers of the many dead horses.
Because when you know how they did that research in England ... we (in the Netherlands) perhaps can start it here the same way ... and so on.
Why reinvent the wheel if this has already been done...

Simple questions... but strange answers came out.
And yes... ONE of the people we ask simple questions was mr Kottenbelt himself 
And by strange answers... we simply want to know (and learn) more and more....

One of the things that WE where alsoo looking for is a way to avoid ragwort in the hay so a lot horse owners have no (or at least less) problems when they heave purchased the horse hay in a shop (not everyone has his one fields).

In the Netherlands for example it was the same Esther Hegt that has organized that the (horse) hay is checked and certified now before selling.
Is this also done in England ? can you really trust what you're buying ?

Here for example people were selling hay as "natural horse hay" with good quality.
Yes...indeed... naturaly... it came from the stroke near the highway's.... filt with ??? a lot of ragwort!
But only the name... natural horse hay ... was one of the reasons people buy that hay while they simply have to much trust in sellers.....
(by law they , the sellers and mostly also the same people who are responsable for maintenance along the way , must distroy that stuff but there was no control on it !!)

We also have written a lot of goverments and sellers of seeds , because one of the problems here was that the spread the seeds near the roads and in privat gardens (it's a nice yellow flower , they where thinking...)

That's a little of the kind of stuff we are doing here... 
Tell people that there IS somethink we can do about that ragwort problem for us horse owners, without causing panic to people who only heare somethink but have no knowledge if its the truth what they hear. (see above for example)


[/QUOTE]
Until then I'll continue to make sure my horses don't have access to Ragwort  as a part of their management.[/QUOTE]

Do not get us wrong again!! 
We do the same !! But i must commit...
I have filmed horses in a nature pasture field with a awful lot of ragwort.
Not the kind of pasture where I would put my horse in.
I spend hours there... but didn't see ONE horse eating ragwort. (and yes there were several "wild" horses )
BUT i also don't want to see that stuff in MY fields where MY horse is eating!

I hope you and other people now understand why we are pointing out tis ragwort "problem"
Yes , it is a problem in the pasture for several animals , but not the problem as several (read a lot) media let us know.

The site of Esther Hegt is just so you can read an other site of the story and maybe some-one learn some-think like new information.
The references on that site are from a lot of people with al lot of knowledge of ragwort and they , also today , keep us informed with the latest information about ragwort in the world (no... not only in the Netherlands but from everywere )
That's simply one site you can have a little more trust in for you're info than you're radio or TV ,  newspapers or selling site's and other papers that whe see everywhere writing the same (old)stuff


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## Nick Altena (13 June 2012)

Pebble101 said:



			Who are 'we'?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, we... Esther Hegt and me.
As horse owners we share the same concerns about ragwort and the information about it for years.
I am a close friend and involved in the research we did about the myths and facts.
I work like a lot of other people on the backgroud for the ragwort site (the Dutch version) , searching for info , mailing people and so on
Through this work I learned a lot about ragwort and what a good scientific studie is 
Maybe most inportant... i learn also that if you are open minded you can ask those scientists a lot of questions where you then also get comprehensive answers .... even with my poor English writing 

 ... nothing more... nothing less..


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## Moomin1 (13 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Sorry, we... Esther Hegt and me.
As horse owners we share the same concerns about ragwort and the information about it for years.
I am a close friend and involved in the research we did about the myths and facts.
I work like a lot of other people on the backgroud for the ragwort site (the Dutch version) , searching for info , mailing people and so on
Through this work I learned a lot about ragwort and what a good scientific studie is 
Maybe most inportant... i learn also that if you are open minded you can ask those scientists a lot of questions where you then also get comprehensive answers .... even with my poor English writing 

 ... nothing more... nothing less..
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry - please can you explain to me very briefly the point you are making?  I don't quite get it - it strikes me you are both saying ragwort is toxic to horses but advising people not to get rid of it.  What would you advise rather than getting rid of it??


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## Nick Altena (13 June 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			Well they are very pretty caterpillers! Seriously,one way of increasing a plant is by root cuttings.So if you pull a ragwort plant out do the remaining shreds of root regenerate into more plants?
   Not suggesting anyone stops their efforts..but in the interest of insect conservation.....

Click to expand...


Seriously, one way of DEcreasing a ragwort plant is... a lot of caterpillars


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## Nick Altena (14 June 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			I'm sorry - please can you explain to me very briefly the point you are making?  I don't quite get it - it strikes me you are both saying ragwort is toxic to horses but advising people not to get rid of it.  What would you advise rather than getting rid of it??
		
Click to expand...

Verry briefly ?
I try but speak for myself:

Read  and hear the info in the given links... but then all of them...
See the difference in what the English media is telling you... and what the ragwort site of Esther is trying to explain (and we also do here on this site...)
The facts and the myths (the myths mentioned on the ragwort site are coming from England)
And after that... think what ever you want .....about us....or other people telling you about ragwort.... 
But research and thinking self, not because someone calls what he has (maybe) heard somewhere


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## EstherHegt (14 June 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			I'm sorry - please can you explain to me very briefly the point you are making?  I don't quite get it - it strikes me you are both saying ragwort is toxic to horses but advising people not to get rid of it.  What would you advise rather than getting rid of it??
		
Click to expand...

No that is NOT the advise, that is the blindness of this discussion, but I am very glad you tell you don't understand.
The big problem is, there are myths, like skin absorption by PA's. that is not a fact. it is a myth. You can mail Knottenbelt and ask him, does he has proof, no he don't.
The myth is also 6500 horses die in a year at ragwort, go ask Defra Liverpool etc. use your rights for honest and fair info. This is somebody who did this!! http://www.thepoisongarden.co.uk/blog/blog111011.htm  read it, and use your right for fair info. 
We did it too, and we got  a lot of help from experts at ragwort.


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## Moomin1 (14 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Verry briefly ?
I try:

Read  and hear the info in the given links... but then all of them...
See the difference in what the English media is telling you... and what the ragwort site of Esther is trying to explain (and we also do here on this site...)
The facts and the myths (the myths mentioned on the ragwort site are coming from England)
And after that... think what ever you want .....about us....or other people telling you about ragwort....  but research and thinking self, not because someone calls what he has (maybe) heard somewhere 

Click to expand...

Sorry, I asked could you briefly tell me what the main factors were in the argument.  I can't be bothered reading anything else tbh because I always make sure my horse's field is free of ragwort.  I have known many a horse (and I mean MANY) that have come up with liver damage due to the pasture they were kept on having no grass and an abundance of ragwort.


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## Moomin1 (14 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			No that is NOT the advise, that is the blindness of this discussion, but I am very glad you tell you don't understand.
The big problem is, there are myths, like skin absorption by PA's. that is not a fact. it is a myth. You can mail Knottenbelt and ask him, does he has proof, no he don't.
The myth is also 6500 horses die in a year at ragwort, go ask Defra Liverpool etc. use your rights for honest and fair info. This is somebody who did this!! http://www.thepoisongarden.co.uk/blog/blog111011.htm  read it, and use your right for fair info. 
We did it too, and we got  a lot of help from experts at ragwort.
		
Click to expand...

I'm very sorry - I don't know if it's your English but I really don't get your point?

What do you suggest people do about ragwort in their horse's field?


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## EstherHegt (14 June 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			I'm very sorry - I don't know if it's your English but I really don't get your point?

What do you suggest people do about ragwort in their horse's field?
		
Click to expand...

Good pasture management, look at your field and make a good dense sward, look at my signature, ragwort is easer to prevent than cure, theer is a lot of advice.


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## rhino (14 June 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			I'm very sorry - I don't know if it's your English but I really don't get your point?
		
Click to expand...

I think the point is an ongoing vendetta against Prof. Knottenbelt   Nothing more, nothing less.


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## EstherHegt (14 June 2012)

rhino said:



			I think the point is an ongoing vendetta against Prof. Knottenbelt   Nothing more, nothing less.
		
Click to expand...

who burns his buttocks has to sit on the blisters


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## Moomin1 (14 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Good pasture management, look at your field and make a good dense sward, look at my signature, ragwort is easer to prevent than cure, theer is a lot of advice.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I'm very tired, have a lot of hassle at work tomorrow and paperwork to do, please could you summarise HOW to maintain a good pasture.  I am not being pedantic I just am too tired to read through your links.

Please, just in brief?


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## rhino (14 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			who burns his buttocks has to sit on the blisters
		
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Pathetic 

Who has done more for equine welfare and research in this country than almost anyone else has my respect.

Take your petty crusade elsewhere if you want a positive reaction. You'll find the HHOers have far more common sense than to fall for it here.


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## Capriole (14 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			who burns his buttocks has to sit on the blisters
		
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What on earth are you on about now?


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## Moomin1 (14 June 2012)

Oh god I can't be arsed any more I'm off to bed!!!


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## HappyHooves (14 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Seriously, one way of DEcreasing a ragwort plant is... a lot of caterpillars 

Click to expand...

INCORRECT and probably one of your own myths for which you have done no proper scientific research. Eating the leaves doesn't kill the plant. 

Will you explain why the website you Dutch folk are constantly advertising ( PLEASE don't put another link on for it- it doesn't always pay to advertise)  why on that site you feel it necessary to name Prof K at every possible opportunity? Has one of the 'experts' got something personal against him I wonder. The only aspect of the Ragwort myth debate you have mentioned  was concerning the absorption of the actively toxic substance through human skin, for which Prof K admitted he had no scientific research evidence. Yet the Dutch on this forum imply that he is spreading a whole lot of myths about ragwort. Which others is the good Prof responsible for?


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## KdyK (14 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Good pasture management, look at your field and make a good dense sward, look at my signature, ragwort is easer to prevent than cure, theer is a lot of advice.
		
Click to expand...

um, fine. But how do you prevent it if ITS ALREADY THERE?! you cure it...


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## HappyHooves (14 June 2012)

Oh forgot to ask.. How many horses die in the Netherlands from ragwort poisoning? Presume there must be lots since you bother with a dedicated website about Ragwort.
maybe postmortems on horses are subsidised by someone?


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## Box_Of_Frogs (14 June 2012)

EH, I'm sick of this. I challenge you to prove that ragwort isn't poisonous. Find a nice field of the stuff and eat a bowlful every day for say, a month. Then report back to this Forum. I know humans aren't horses but hey we're all mammals so off you go and start eating. Bon appetit.


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## EstherHegt (14 June 2012)

HappyHooves said:



			Oh forgot to ask.. How many horses die in the Netherlands from ragwort poisoning? Presume there must be lots since you bother with a dedicated website about Ragwort.
maybe postmortems on horses are subsidised by someone?
		
Click to expand...

We did make a survey http://www.jakobskruiskruid.com/website/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67&Itemid=27
Maybe google translate can help. tomorrow I can try it to translate how we did this, we had help wiht the questionary from toxicologists from our health care for catttle and horses. ( like DEFRA) Questions  who did the diagnose, where there bloodsamples, was there a biopsy, was it in the feed etc. That is what I mentioned in my OP post, do a poll. Find out the true. we had a few victims, not al where prooven.
We had some outbreaks with cows, related at hay. That is documented and published.
If you have hay, and a lot of cows it is a  problem like ONE fire with more victims. That are not seperate fires. Look at pub med, that is a good source http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=ragwort poisoning

If you did that you can see ragwort is poisonous, then search skin absoption etc. Use the terms pyrrolizide alkaloids, ragwort senecio or jacobaea or equin. Find your sources. Ask experts. Then you find the true.


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## LittleWildOne (14 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Seriously, one way of DEcreasing a ragwort plant is... a lot of caterpillars 

Click to expand...

Ahhhhh ! Got It !
They are trying to sell us Cinnabar Moth larvae 
I'll let you Dutch preachers into a WEEEEEEEE SECRET - We already HAVE Cinnabar Moths here in the UK


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## cptrayes (14 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Good pasture management, look at your field and make a good dense sward, look at my signature, ragwort is easer to prevent than cure, theer is a lot of advice.
		
Click to expand...

This is RUBBISH if, as many of us are, you are deliberately trying to grow unfertilized, "poor" quality grass in order to prevent laminitic issues in horses.

Ragwort LOVES unfertilized, hill wildflower meadow. It is much easier to pull it up by hand than to prevent it.

And I'll repeat. I have been pulling ragwort by hand with no other treatment for 20 years and I have yet to see it regrow in any of the places that I have pulled it. It reseeds into new places from the verges and from my farming neighbours.


Nick/Esther

I do not understand why your advice to prevent ragwort growth in horse pasture and buy only ragwort free hay requires all the rest of the gubbins that you are writing, which reads like a vendetta against Professor Knottenbelt. I also do not understand why you think we do not already know that we should prevent ragwort growth in horse pasture and buy only ragwort free hay. On the one hand you are a saying that we are hysterical about ragwort and the next moment you are teaching us to suck eggs. Please stop, it's getting ridiculous, and insulting.


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## Clava (14 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			And I'll repeat. I have been pulling ragwort by hand with no other treatment for 20 years and I have yet to see it regrow in any of the places that I have pulled it. It reseeds into new places from the verges and from my farming neighbours.

.
		
Click to expand...

Actually it does if you pull it when it is just a rosette and not about to flower, any tiny roots left behind develop into plants, but if you pull it later in it's growth cycle then no new plants develop! I know this because a friend said it was easier to dig them up when small...and I returned to the places I had dug and found new plants sprouting where I had failed to get all the roots up - Never again!!!


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## touchstone (14 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Good pasture management, look at your field and make a good dense sward, look at my signature, ragwort is easer to prevent than cure, theer is a lot of advice.
		
Click to expand...


The last thing my laminitic needs is 'a good dense sward' I deliberately keep my grazing short and sparse to protect my horse's health.  Heavily fertilised lush grazing is not ideal horse pasture.   As for ragwort not growing in a good dense sward I'd also argue that it does, I regularly find rosettes growing in my well maintained lawn.




EstherHegt said:



			No that is NOT the advise, that is the blindness of this discussion, but I am very glad you tell you don't understand.
The big problem is, there are myths, like skin absorption by PA's. that is not a fact. it is a myth. You can mail Knottenbelt and ask him, does he has proof, no he don't.
The myth is also 6500 horses die in a year at ragwort, go ask Defra Liverpool etc. use your rights for honest and fair info. This is somebody who did this!! http://www.thepoisongarden.co.uk/blog/blog111011.htm  read it, and use your right for fair info. 
We did it too, and we got  a lot of help from experts at ragwort.
		
Click to expand...


Regardless of whether skin absorption is a myth or not (if you don't believe it just don't bother wearing gloves) and whether there are hundreds or one horse that dies I couldn't give a toss, one death is too many and I will continue to eradicate it by pulling from my pasture.   I took on a paddock that had been neglected and it has taken me fifteen years to get on top of it by regular pulling of ragwort.   I'm not prepared to let it take over again by leaving it, and I agree with cptrayes, I've never had it regrow after being pulled by the roots, I suspect any regrowth is from the thousands of seeds one plant produces that can last twenty years.


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## ragwortsense (14 June 2012)

At this time every year, there are a lot of stories about ragwort that do not reflect the facts. There will be advice to put salt in the holes left by pulling ragwort. There will be well-meaning groups of volunteers 'going to war' against ragwort in ways that will assist its spread. And there will be people calling for its complete eradication.

It happens every year and it is always based on myths and lies about how ragwort works.

Esther hoped that by raising concerns that these myths tend to INCREASE the amount of ragwort intelligent horse owners would know what to do when faced with badly researched news stories.

Sadly, what has happened is that there has been an unbelievable amount of personal abuse that should make the people concerned ashamed.

There has also been a world of misunderstanding, deliberate or otherwise. Box_Of_Frogs, just to give one example, says 'I challenge you to prove that ragwort isn't poisonous'. No-one has suggested that ragwort is not poisonous. The difference lies between being poisonous and being harmful. Some of the beliefs expressed, even here, make ragwort MORE harmful. 

But, as importantly, the myths have continued to be recycled.

Take brighteyes, again just one example. 'the laws on ragwort control have been relaxed to a point where its spread across England is unstoppable and the plant pretty much contaminates all land now'. Not true. There has been no relaxation of the laws. The 2003 Ragwort Control Act was intended to give a more structured way of implementing the Weeds Act of 1959. Look at the records for things like dock and see how ineffective the Weeds Act has been. And properly conducted studies show that common ragwort is not more abundant than in the past.


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## Alec Swan (14 June 2012)

ragwortsense said:



			At this time every year, there are a lot of stories about ragwort that do not reflect the facts. .......

.......

The 2003 Ragwort Control Act was intended to give a more structured way of implementing the Weeds Act of 1959. Look at the records for things like dock and see how ineffective the Weeds Act has been. And properly conducted studies show that common ragwort is not more abundant than in the past.
		
Click to expand...

Generally,  a good post,  but I can't agree with your last paragraph.  Whilst it was the _intention, _that the Act would force those who are responsible for land management to act against the weed,  the simple fact is that the regulations are ignored by most.  The simplest way to force compliance is to withhold all SFP and Conservation benefits.  That'd work! 

To suggest that "Properly conducted studies" have revealed that there is no more common occurrence of ragwort cannot be right,  and I'd be tempted to believe the research to be skewed.  I've lived with ragwort all my life,  and I'm 66 years old,  I pulled it as a child,  and I'm still dealing with it,  only the situation is now considerably worse,  at least here in East Anglia it is.

Alec.


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## MerrySherryRider (14 June 2012)

Looking on wildlife sites, it seems that the hysteria and propaganda for protecting ragwort comes from there. 

 Ragwort has a lot of friends it seems and there is a strong anti horse sentiment with statements on conservation forums like 'horses should not be kept in fields then.'

 There is criticism of the BHS ragwort awareness week and the work of the Countryside Alliance in controlling its spread.

 The Cinnibar Moth is a common moth, it is not endangered in the UK. The facts are that 89% of vets have treated suspected ragwort poisoning in horses. However, the friends of ragwort choose to challenge reports of ragwort fatalities where no post mortem was performed. How many horse owners are in a position to pay for a PM in addition to vet bills and disposal ?

Our Dutch friends are strangely very busy on the internet in promoting ragwort, I can only guess that their obsession in increasing the Cinnibar  Moth population is higher on their agenda than protecting horses.


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## Nick Altena (14 June 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I've lived with ragwort all my life,  and I'm 66 years old,  I pulled it as a child,  and I'm still dealing with it,  only the situation is now considerably worse,  at least here in East Anglia it is.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

All you're life... and you're 66
I read in other post...20 years...15 years...pulling ragwort to lose it.

That's a long time , especially if written by some people here that no new plants come up when you pull out the plant.

I have some questions reading this:

Like Alec, a lot of people say that ragworth is coming up more and more...
What do the people here think is the reason for that ?

Why is it taken so long to lose the ragwort from you're pastures when pulling is so successfull as written down by a lot of people here?


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## MerrySherryRider (14 June 2012)

No one said they were pulling ragwort from the same pasture for 20 years. Many horse owners move their horses around.


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## misterjinglejay (14 June 2012)

Because there is a lot more set aside land, a lot more common land, a lot more derelict sites etc. Plus more roadworks that disperse the seeds, and more long distance travel that, again, spreads the seeds.


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## touchstone (14 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			All you're life... and you're 66
I read in other post...20 years...15 years...pulling ragwort to lose it.

That's a long time , especially if written by some people here that no new plants come up when you pull out the plant.

I have some questions reading this:

Like Alec, a lot of people say that ragworth is coming up more and more...
What do the people here think is the reason for that ?

Why is it taken so long to lose the ragwort from you're pastures when pulling is so successfull as written down by a lot of people here?
		
Click to expand...

I'd suspect a lot if it is due to the fact that the plant produces 150.000 seeds or thereabouts, which can lie dormant for 20 years, so a single ragwort that goes to seed can infiltrate that land for a lengthy period of time from germinated seedlings.  

I've also used Barrier H which is supposed to kill the whole plant and still had rosettes springing up, so plants sprouting from remaining roots by pulling isn't the whole story.  In my experience once you have seeded plants you have to work hard to eradicate it.


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## YasandCrystal (14 June 2012)

Clava said:



			Actually it does if you pull it when it is just a rosette and not about to flower, any tiny roots left behind develop into plants, but if you pull it later in it's growth cycle then no new plants develop! I know this because a friend said it was easier to dig them up when small...and I returned to the places I had dug and found new plants sprouting where I had failed to get all the roots up - Never again!!!
		
Click to expand...

^ I absolutely agree with this. My paddocks are overrun with ragwort this year. The growing conditions have obviously been perfect for it and I am hand pulling maturing plants in the hope they will not return next year. Last year and the year before I dug up rossettes which have returned with avengeance.


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## ILuvCowparsely (14 June 2012)

I have a ragi fork on my trailer and when i drive round depooing  ,  its a good time to spot and  i also have the fork with me and the trailer to put them in 

http://equinecare-and-control.weebly.com/useful-ideas.html


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## Sophstar (14 June 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			^ I absolutely agree with this. My paddocks are overrun with ragwort this year. The growing conditions have obviously been perfect for it and I am hand pulling maturing plants in the hope they will not return next year. Last year and the year before I dug up rossettes which have returned with avengeance.
		
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It's the complete opposite at our yard...2 of our fields last year were a sea of yellow but this year we have the odd rosette and that's it. The farmer had planned to get the normally worst offending field sprayed but has now decided against it as there is basically nothing to spray


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## Dab (14 June 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			^ I absolutely agree with this. My paddocks are overrun with ragwort this year. The growing conditions have obviously been perfect for it and I am hand pulling maturing plants in the hope they will not return next year. Last year and the year before I dug up rossettes which have returned with avengeance.
		
Click to expand...

Thats interesting as i have been pulling the few rosettes i find (between 6 to 12) for the last two years and this year so far i have only come across 2 not in the same place as any of the previous finds! I dont spray just dig up, and i've never ever even heard of putting salt into the hole left behind!

I shall be going out into the hay field this week for a thorough look through to double check before cutting - as i always do.


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## ragwortsense (14 June 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			To suggest that "Properly conducted studies" have revealed that there is no more common occurrence of ragwort cannot be right,  and I'd be tempted to believe the research to be skewed. 

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

It is difficult to be certain because, unfortunately, things like the BHS survey are deeply flawed.

All I can point to is the 2002 edition of the Atlas of British & Irish Flora http://www.brc.ac.uk/plantatlas/index.php?q=plant/senecio-jacobaea which says 'The distribution of S. jacobaea is unchanged from the map in the 1962 Atlas'. Before people jump on this being ten years old look at this 2002 Guardian story http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/aug/26/ruralaffairs.science suggesting that it was becoming an epidemic and saying horse deaths were expected to *double in one year* as a result. 

So, at the time people were claiming it was becoming much more widespread, the atlas found no change.


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## Stinkbomb (14 June 2012)

STILL no idea what this thread is trying to achieve??? CAN ANYONE in plain simple english explain it to me?????


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## cptrayes (14 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			All you're life... and you're 66
I read in other post...20 years...15 years...pulling ragwort to lose it.

That's a long time , especially if written by some people here that no new plants come up when you pull out the plant.

I have some questions reading this:

Like Alec, a lot of people say that ragworth is coming up more and more...
What do the people here think is the reason for that ?

Why is it taken so long to lose the ragwort from you're pastures when pulling is so successfull as written down by a lot of people here?
		
Click to expand...




horserider said:



			No one said they were pulling ragwort from the same pasture for 20 years. Many horse owners move their horses around.
		
Click to expand...



I did and I have. It is reseeded every year  by the  Council who allow it to grow willy nilly on the verges and spread it higher and higher into the hills every year with their cutting machines. And by surrounding sheep farmers who do not control it. I get one or two new plants a year on 12 acres.


Losing it is impossible in that situation. Pulling it up when a properly grown plant and not a rosette has never, in 20 years that I have been doing it, resulted in regrowth in the same spot.


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## cptrayes (14 June 2012)

rhino said:



			I think the point is an ongoing vendetta against Prof. Knottenbelt   Nothing more, nothing less.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. The advice has been limited to "don't pull rosettes" and "don't put salt in the hole" and "buy hay with no ragwort in". Plus totally unworkable advice to have well fertilised thick grass sward, which can be pretty much lethal to a laminitic.

The rest has just been long posts containing a tirade againt Prof. Knottenbelt which are completely irrelevant to any discussion of how to manage ragwort in horse pasture.

Now Nick and Esther, are you going to tell us what your real agenda is, or not?


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## cptrayes (14 June 2012)

ragwortsense said:



			All I can point to is the 2002 edition of the Atlas of British & Irish Flora http://www.brc.ac.uk/plantatlas/index.php?q=plant/senecio-jacobaea which says 'The distribution of S. jacobaea is unchanged from the map in the 1962 Atlas'.  

So, at the time people were claiming it was becoming much more widespread, the atlas found no change.
		
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-

Distribution and volume are not the same thing.

Distribution -areas of the country in which it grows - may be little different. Volumes are hugely greater in this area than they were 20 years ago and make it increasingly difficult for people to keep their horse pasture free of  it.


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## Nick Altena (14 June 2012)

Oke, i have a next question :

If you (the most of the people in this treat) don't like what WE (Esther and I ) write and think its just an ongoing vendetta against Prof. Knottenbelt (who is, as a fact , the person that spread the nonsens).... just take some time and read this one en tell me what you think after that...

http://www.buglife.org.uk/News/news...g+information+about+Ragwort+-+a+British+wildf


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## rhino (14 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Oke, i have a next question :

If you (the most of the people in this treat) don't like what WE (Esther and I ) write and think its just an ongoing vendetta against Prof. Knottenbelt (who is, as a fact , the person that spread the nonsens).... just take some time and read this one en tell me what you think after that...

http://www.buglife.org.uk/News/news...g+information+about+Ragwort+-+a+British+wildf

Click to expand...

Why do you insist on thinking we are stupid and *don't* read? I read it when this thread started, and if an ASA adjudication is the worst 'dirt' you can dig on someone I'd say it's a pretty poor show to be honest?! I would love a link to the adjudication itself though, please, as there seems to be extremely contradictory responses to the outcome in the various sites you recommend.

A flawed study by the BHS? I honestly couldn't care less. I don't think they have an agenda, other than trying to protect horses against something that *kills*. To think that the only figures you will accept are deaths specifically linked directly to ragwort on pathology is absolutely ridiculous though; I spent 2 years working for an equine vet practice, running their lab, and the only times they were asked to perform a post mortem was in one stallion with a 'suspicious' death, and two high performance horses who had collapsed. Post Mortems are *not* a routine sight in veterinary practice over here, although death caused by liver failure is... funny that?!


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## MerrySherryRider (14 June 2012)

Wow, HHO are seen as the enemy to the ragwort lovers. Didn't know we were famous http://ragwort-hysteria.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/ignorance-and-bigotry-in-face-of.html

The more I look on the internet about these people and their agenda, the more weird it becomes. 

 Did you know the author of the above blog got the adverts warning about the dangers of ragwort to horses removed ?

I really didn't know there was such a vocal movement out there to promote the growth of ragwort.

I'm off to the council to get them to organise the removal of ragwort on their land before these campaigners prevent the Weeds Act being enforced.


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## Alec Swan (14 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			All you're life... and you're 66
I read in other post...20 years...15 years...pulling ragwort to lose it.
*I don't understand your point.*

That's a long time , especially if written by some people here that no new plants come up when you pull out the plant.
*Pulling Ragwort is only a temporary measure.*

I have some questions reading this:

Like Alec, a lot of people say that ragworth is coming up more and more...
What do the people here think is the reason for that ?
*A combination of reasons;
Over grazing,  which encourages an ideal environment for the plant.
Global warming, and without doubt the successive mild winters have encouraged those who keep livestock to over-winter their animals, out rather than bringing them in,  which in turn has compounded the practice of over grazing,  which then in turn creates yet another perfect environment for the plant,  and so on ad-naseum.*

Why is it taken so long to lose the ragwort from you're pastures when pulling is so successfull as written down by a lot of people here?
*Pulling Ragwort does little to reduce any future infestation.  It simply removes the pulled plant which is no longer a threat to the animals contained.*

Click to expand...

Otherwise,  I'm with Stinkbomb,  in that I haven't a clue what the argument is about,  or achieving. 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (14 June 2012)

rhino said:



			....... 

To think that the only figures you will accept are deaths specifically linked directly to ragwort on pathology is absolutely ridiculous though; 

.......
		
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I agree.  Formal and in depth PMs are extremely costly,  and when a horse dies from chronic liver failure,  and the animal has been kept on Ragwort infested ground,  or been fed Ragwort infested hay,  then there seems little point in spending a great deal of money to be told something which the owner already knows.

Liver failure generally,  is down to one of two reasons,  Liver Fluke,  or Ragwort poisoning.  Fluke is unusual,  Ragwort isn't.

Alec.


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## cptrayes (14 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Oke, i have a next question :

If you (the most of the people in this treat) don't like what WE (Esther and I ) write and think its just an ongoing vendetta against Prof. Knottenbelt (who is, as a fact , the person that spread the nonsens).... just take some time and read this one en tell me what you think after that...

http://www.buglife.org.uk/News/news...g+information+about+Ragwort+-+a+British+wildf

Click to expand...

Nick that reference has nothing whatsoever to do with anything that you are advising that any HHO member should do differently and is a pointless waste of time for anyone to read. Ragwort needs removal from horse pasture, as you agree. Monsanto sell a weedkiller that will do it. Ragforks work for grown plants but are probably not advisable for rosettes. The BHS is stressing a little too much about a plant which is known to kill horses. SO WHAT!?!

Ragwort is not rare, it does not need protecting. It beggars belief that the people who made those complaints to the ASA could not find a better way to spend their time, and sure as eggs is eggs I have better things to do with my time than read the full judgement.


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## cptrayes (14 June 2012)

horserider said:



			Wow, HHO are seen as the enemy to the ragwort lovers. Didn't know we were famous http://ragwort-hysteria.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/ignorance-and-bigotry-in-face-of.html

Click to expand...



I have posted this comment to the latest post of this blog but I doubt if it will ever appear. The post makes the assertion that ragwort deaths are rare.




			You do not know how rare or common ragwort poisoning is because post mortems are not routinely carried out on horses. None of us know.

In the interests of the same kind of accuracy that you are requesting from those who say ragwort causes a high number of horse deaths, can you please edit your text to remove the statement that ragwort poisoning in horses is rare.

I would also prefer it, in the interests of objectivity, if you did not write as if the removal of ragwort from horse pasture was going to cause a shortage of it for bugs. The plant is extremely common, there will be no shortage for the caterpillars.
		
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*NICK and ESTHER*

One more time and lets see if we get an answer this time. What is it that you want the British public to do about ragwort that they do not do at the moment?  Don't pull rosettes, don't put salt in the holes, don't panic. OK, got that thanks. Grow a thick fertilised grass sward. No thanks, it's not safe for lots of horses.  IS THAT IT?


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## touchstone (14 June 2012)

This thread brings a whole new meaning to the term 'double dutch' for me!


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## MerrySherryRider (14 June 2012)

Apparently they refer to removal of ragwort from horse pasture as 'horsteria'. 


 Its been quite an eye opener to discover that swarms of bug lovers see the horse fraternity as the enemy.
 I'm guessing brought about as response to the Ragwort Control Act in 2003, which followed on from the 1959 legislation.


To devote webpages, blogs, etc to the weed is slightly obsessional and controlling, don't you think ?


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## cptrayes (14 June 2012)

touchstone said:



			This thread brings a whole new meaning to the term 'double dutch' for me!
		
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...


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## Crugeran Celt (14 June 2012)

horserider said:



			Apparently they refer to removal of ragwort from horse pasture as 'horsteria'. 


 I am 'horsterical' then!

Click to expand...


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## Bestdogdash (14 June 2012)

Are you insane ? Perhaps I can direct you to another 'source' against Ragwort - namely the RSPCA - whose page today highlights the danger of leaving it in grazed pasture. Go away and stop posting dangerous rubbish.


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## EstherHegt (14 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I have posted this comment to the latest post of this blog but I doubt if it will ever appear. The post makes the assertion that ragwort deaths are rare.


*NICK and ESTHER*

One more time and lets see if we get an answer this time. What is it that you want the British public to do about ragwort that they do not do at the moment?  Don't pull rosettes, don't put salt in the holes, don't panic.  IS THAT IT?

Click to expand...

We tell this!!! Horse pastures and Ragwort. Prevention is easier than cure.
And I copy now what we tell from my website. This is under protection of copyright, try te read and learn. Read what we are telling and how we solved the problem. The refere4nces I put in the next post, it is to big for one post.

By Esther Hegt and Dr. Pieter B. Pelser ( University of Canterbury- Biological Sciences, Christchurch, New Zealand). Thanks to Lex van de Weerd, grasslandspecialist (Barenbrug Holland b.v.) for his advice.

Common ragwort (Jacobaea vulgaris) is a common weed native to Europe, and north and western Asia. It usually grows in places where the original vegetation has been disturbed, in nutrient poor pastures, and areas that have been recently transformed into nature preserves. This species, just like all other ragworts in western Europe, contains pyrrolizidine alkaloids of the senecionine type. Upon ingestion, these chemical compounds are poisonous to most vertebrates and insects (1, 2, 3). When growing in pastures that are used for grazing or hay production, ragwort species are therefore a potential health hazard to cattle and horses. Although horses usually dont feed on living ragworts, dried plants are not recognized as poisonous (3, 5, 6, 7, 8) and alkaloid poisoning may therefore occur when ragwort ends up in hay that is meant for consumption (4).

Tansy ragwort is difficult to control

Once common ragwort has established itself in a horse pasture it is very hard to control the plant. It is, for instance, not easy to remove the plant manually. To be effective, this requires removing the entire plant, including all its roots, because even from small root fragments new plants can sprout. Manual removal is therefore generally only effective when fighting seedlings and rosettes, because larger plants are often too deeply rooted to be removed without leaving root fragments behind. An additional disadvantage of pulling ragwort is that this disturbs the soil, which may result in the surfacing and subsequent germination of tansy ragwort seeds that may be present in the seed bank.
Furthermore, soil disturbance creates a suitable environment for incoming common ragwort seeds to germinate. Another form of ragwort control is preventing the plant from producing seeds. Because ragwort is a plant with a short life span, it is sometimes thought that if the ragwort cannot propagate itself, it will eventually disappear from a field. Unfortunately, also this method is not always successful. In a natural situation common ragwort dies after flowering and subsequent seed production (7, 8, 9). Removal of the inflorescence by mowing or cutting, however, may cause the plant to sprout again the same of following year, prolonging its life span (7, 8, 9).
Using herbicides to control ragwort is also no guarantee for success. The products that are frequently used are absorbed by the leaves and are subsequently transported to the other parts of the plant. This, due to the large size of full-grown common ragwort plants, might take some time (10, 11, 12, 13) and is often only effective when the plants are still seedlings or rosettes. When applying herbicides, it is important to make sure that the plants are not under stress (for example, by drought or extreme temperatures). It is therefore best to apply herbicides in favorable weather conditions when the plants are actively growing. Selective herbicides such as 2.4.D and MCPA do not kill grass and are therefore preferable.

The best defense is a good offence

Because ragwort is hard to control once it has established itself in a horse pasture, it is important to prevent the plant from settling. Maintaining a dense layer of grasses and other ground covering plants is in this respect a good strategy, because this reduces the chances that ragwort seeds will germinate.
Unfortunately, it is not always easy to maintain such a dense layer of vegetation in a horse pasture, because horses damage the ground cover by running, playing, and grazing. Good field management is therefore of utmost importance (14, 15, 16, 17). Because grass only grows well when soil fertility levels are up to standard, it is important to know how fertile the soil of your horse pasture is. This information can be obtained from a company that provides fertilization advice based on soil samples of your pasture. Proper fertilization is not only a good method to reduce the chances that ragwort will establish itself in a field, it also allows grasses to compete better with other weed species and prevents erosion (14, 15, 16, 17).
In addition to maintaining soil fertility levels, it is important to make sure there is a good mixture of grass species. Different grasses have different characteristics. For instance, some grasses grow predominantly upwards whereas others grow, through offshoots, in a more horizontal direction. Grasses also vary in their potential to regenerate after damage. Sowing the right combination of grass species is therefore important to obtain a strong and resilient grass layer (18). Unfortunately, the number of grass species that can be used in a pasture is rather limited, because not all grasses are suitable for horses. Some grasses contain too much fructane, which increases the risk of founder (15, 17, 19, 20, 21). Special grass seed mixtures are, however, available for horse pastures.

Rotating grazing is a good principle

Even in fields where the soil is fertile and there is a good mixture of grasses, horses will damage the grass layer. This is especially a problem when there is only a small area available per horse, because in such fields the risks of over grazing and soil disturbance are higher. The grass simply doesnt get the time to recover. This can be prevented by dividing the horse field in compartments. In this way, the horses can be moved to another part of the field when the grass becomes too short or when the soil is damaged: rotating grazing. This will give the damaged part of the field some time to recover. It is recommended to make sure that the grass does not get shorter than 5-6 cm. As soon as the grass has grown back to 15-20 cm it can be used for grazing again. It is best to cover the damaged parts of a field with old hay or manure. This will give new grass plants the chance to grow and prevents the germination of weeds such as ragworts.
Another strategy to prevent over grazing and soil disturbance is to limit grazing to only a few hours per day. This method works best in combination with rotating grazing, because even with moderate grazing grass needs a few weeks to fully recover from grazing.

Common ragwort is a common and native plant in the Netherlands. In the past decades, this plant has become more abundant in especially the northern and eastern parts of our country. This relatively recent expansion in an area where this plant is not yet well known by people, the danger that ragwort plant can form for horses when it ends up in hay, and the fact that Common ragwort does well in horse fields and other man-made environments, are causing concern among horse keepers. It is, however, impossible to exterminate Common ragwort in the Netherlands.
Because Common ragwort predominantly grows in places where the natural vegetation is damaged or removed, it will be impossible to make sure that this species becomes less common, let alone that it will disappear from the landscape, as long as the large-scale construction of infrastructure, houses, and industrial areas continues and agricultural land is still being converted into nature preserves. In our opinion, the solution to the ragwort problem is to provide accurate information about Common ragwort and introducing proper legislation. It is, for instance, of the utmost importance to monitor the origin and composition of hay to make sure that ragwort-contaminated hay will be sold as food for horses. In the absence of effective methods to remove Common ragwort from a pasture, field management is in our opinion a good way to reduce the nuisance that this species can cause.


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## ameeyal (14 June 2012)

Why have i just read all 14 pages????????


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## EstherHegt (14 June 2012)

ameeyal said:



			Why have i just read all 14 pages????????
		
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That is because I did triggered some I think?  My first post was clear, the first response was angry and a lot repeated that and became angry and stopped thinking ;-)


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## Horseyscot (14 June 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			Just to say I HATE the yellow stuff with a passion but I hat ignorant lazy farmers more 

Click to expand...




Black Beastie said:



			Yup farmers dont care as they take the cows etc out before there is too little grass to have the beasts NEED to eat it so they dont are that it spreads everywhere. 
! 

Click to expand...

Some possibly don't, but lots do, rather general statement here?



Black Beastie said:



			Take gumption if you like, winding yourself up over summat thats nothing to do with you is pointless but each to their own after all,  but I NEVER said ALL farmers are lazy I said I hated lazy farmers  

Click to expand...

Grow up, its as much to do with me as anyone else on this post 'Yup farmers don't care' comment does seem to band them all as one


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## EstherHegt (14 June 2012)

The references about my  pasture managament page,  It wasn't possible to paste it after that page, everybody can control the references.

References:

1  Schneider, D. 1987. The strange fate of pyrrolizidine alkaloids. In: Chapman, R. F., E. A. Bernays & J. G.  Stoffolano (Eds.). Perspectives in chemoreception and behavior: Springer, Berlin/Heidenberg. 123-142.
2  Boppré, M. 1986. Insects pharmacophagously utilizing defensive plant chemicals (pyrrolizidine alkaloids).     Naturwissenschaften 73: 17-26
3  Macel, M. 2003. On the evolution of the diversity of pyrrolizidine alkaloids. The role of insects as selective forces.Thesis Leiden University.
4  Vos, J. H., A. A. J. Geerts, J. W. Borgers, M. H. Mars, J. A. M. Muskens & L. A. van Wuijckhuise-Sjouke. 2002.     Jacobskruiskruid: bedrieglijke schoonheid. Tijdschr. Diergeneesk. 127: 753-756.
5  Giles, C. J. 1983. Outbreak of ragwort (Senecio jacobaea) poisoning in horses. Equine Veterinary Journal 15: 248- 250.
6  Bain, J. F. 1991. The biology of Canadian weeds. 96. Senecio jacobaea L. Canadian Journal of Plant Science. 71:127-140.
7  Poole, A. L. & D. Cairns. 1940. Botanical aspects of Ragwort (Senecio jacobaea L.) control. Department of Scientific and Industrial Research Bulletin 82: 2-61.
8  Harper, J. L. & W. A. Wood. 1957. Senecio jacobaea L. The Journal of Ecology 45: 617-637.
9  Weeda E.J., R. Westra, CH. Westra & T. Westra. 1987. De Nederlandse oecologische flora, wilde planten en hun     relaties.
10 McLaren, D. & F. Mickan, 1997 The Ragwort Management Handbook., Department of Natural Resources and Environment. Melbourne.
11 McLaren, D. & I. Faitfull, 2004 Ragwort management. Department of Natural Resources and Environment.Melbourne.
12 Muyt, A. 2001. Bush invaders of south-east Australia. R.G. & F.J. Richardson, Meredith, Vic.
13 Parsons, W. T. & E. G. Cuthbertson, 2001. Noxious Weeds of Australia. 2nd Ed. Collingwood, CSIRO Landlinks Press Australia.
14 Myers, J. 2005. Managing Horses on Small Properties. CSIRO Landlinks Press Australia.
website
15 Watts. K. 2007. Rocky Mountain Research and Consulting, Inc. 491 West CR 8 North Center, CO 81125
website
16 Horse Forage and Forage Management 1997-2007. The Samuel Roberts Noble Foundation, Inc.
website
17 Waller, S. S., E. M. Lowel, L. E. Moser, G. A. Gates & P. E. Reece. 1985. Understanding Grass Growth: The Key to Profitable Livestock Production.
website
18 Pihlajamaa-Glimmerveen, L. E. 2006. Grassen de basis van onze beschaving.
website
19 Smith, D. 1973. Nonstructural Carbohydrates. Butler, G. W. & R. W. Bailey (Eds.). Chemistry and Biochemistry of herbage. Academic Press, London:1: 105-155.
20 Veldman, F. H. M. & I. Kooistra. 2006. Fructaanpagina, Paard natuurlijk.
website
21 Watts, K. A. 2005. Unlikely sources of excess carbohydrate in equine diets. Journal of Equine Veterinary Science  25: 338-344.


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## Zuzzie (14 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			I just registered here and have read the forum rules.
Maybe you should also ... 

Personal attacks are not allowed

I know that my English writing is not good, I had written this in my signature just for this type of reactions.
Google is a help, but certainly not flawless.
Would you try to write / read Dutch?

Come on, give substantiated answers.
It is not even necessary that they are not of the same idea as that of our
But when you have nothing sensible to say you do not write this type of response
From this we learn nothing ....

Incidentally, we (also) appear here because there are a lot of emails from England include people who have to look further into this issue ...
They hear, see and read other things that we have discovered through years of searching with the help of many professional people /
And coincidence or not, but almost everyone, including in England, one starts from the version of Knottenbelt with statements in mail he has admitted to have made mistakes ....

a question for you:
Any idea how well scientific research works?

A second question:
Why do you think Knottebelts scientific studies about ragwort have never been published or repeated to see what Knottenbelt claimed was true?

Yes he did research about ragwort, but not in the proper scientific way ....
Yet I see on almost any other site in England (but also in other countries that have the same info unthinkingly took over) his statements ....

Facts ?
Here is a link so you can control what i'm writing:
http://www.liv.ac.uk/equine/staff/derekknottenbelt/

The only scientific research publication about the PA's and blood with some work of Knottebelt is this one:
Moore, R.E. Knottenbelt, D. Matthews, J.B. Beynon, R.J. & Whitfield, P.D. (2008) Biomarkers for Ragwort Poisoning in Horses: Identification of Protein Targets.  BMC Veterinary Research MS: 1237079124188210

But this was not specific ragwort PA, there are moor than 6000 ! plants with the (almost) same PA's.

So... this time a normal answer please ?
		
Click to expand...


Unfortunately, your english is so bad that it is quite impossible to make much sense of what you are trying to say.  I speak some french but personally, I would not have the arrogance to go on a french website to engage in a challenging topic such as this or to lecture the french on how they should manage their own land and horses.

You (and your friend Esther) don't seem to be able to answer simple questions without referring us to endless amounts of data, other websites/links or, indeed, boring us senseless.  Specific questions have been posed yet you both have seen fit to dodge and skirt around the issues rather than provide a definitive answer.   As cptrayes says:

One more time and lets see if we get an answer this time. What is it that you want the British public to do about ragwort that they do not do at the moment? 

You tie yourself up in knots rambling on and on which is probably why you are struggling with the language.  The golden rule with any foreign language is: KEEP IT SIMPLE. 

Regardless of what you have to say, I'm afraid I agree with Rhino here: I think the point is an ongoing vendetta against Prof. Knottenbelt Nothing more, nothing less.


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## EstherHegt (14 June 2012)

Zuzzie said:



One more time and lets see if we get an answer this time. What is it that you want the British public to do about ragwort that they do not do at the moment? 

Click to expand...

Look at my last post. And thanks for the kindness to ask this. I like the British friendly language!


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## cptrayes (14 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			We tell this!!! Horse pastures and Ragwort. Prevention is easier than cure.
And I copy now what we tell from my website. This is under protection of copyright, try to read and learn. Read what we are telling and how we solved the problem. {_edit, a page or more follows with the same information as has already been given before on this thread_}
		
Click to expand...

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn.

How many times are you going to repeat the same thing? Let me try it too. 

*IT IS NOT EASIER TO STOP RAGWORT GROWING THAN TO REMOVE IT WHEN IT HAS GROWN*


Plants can't easily be removed
I have been removing one or two plants (grown but prior to seeding, not at rosette stage) a year from my land for 20 years, and masses more from the verges near my property. I have never had one regrow in the same place, it is reseeded from my neighbours'  land and by the Council cutting machinery.  


Dense well fertilized sward will not allow ragwort to grow.
It would be VERY dangerous for my borderline laminitic horse for me to improve the fertility of my land. He manages well on poorly fertilized flower meadow. He would blow up on well fertilized dense sward.

Paddock rotation will allow proper grass maintenance for ragwort production
 It is NOT easier for me to rotate paddocks. It is easier for me to graze 12 acres with 2 horses year round, and it is nicer for them to have space to have a wild gallop when they want and choice of plants to graze.



I know English is not your first language, Esther but the way you use it ("try to read and learn", [people who disagreed with you] "stopped thinking") is both patronising and insulting to native speakers. You have an opinion about how to manage grazing to prevent ragwort. I do not agree with it. Neither will a lot of other people. Please respect that and stop repeating yourself ad nauseam.


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## Nick Altena (14 June 2012)

if you really want to read what I write my english is clear enough.
On other forums they have no problems with it.
Oke...lets keep it simple this time ( i think i am on a verry special forum here:

Let me ask a question.
Why do you and other people in England defend a person that come with false information and put the entire country into a "ragwort" panic ?

I can tell you that he self-admitted that his studies at various points have been incorrectly carried out and he has gambled the numbers of 6000 dead horses.
the fact that his name is mentioned by us is because almost everyone in England took over his examinations without any control of it was correct.

in parentheses
For me it is permitted if you try to answer in Dutch , I will say nothing about all your mistakes and very likely still understand you.... 
Growe up ,  is this the way how you deal with other people in England ?
Its like i tell a little child that santa isn't real... just the same reactions here....
You MUST not respond, it is permitted..
We , Esther and I still write on a normal level... i respect you're way of thinking and ask you al you do the same.
Talk at a normal level with each other, then there is more to learn than this nonsense about my english...


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## Stinkbomb (14 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Look at my last post. And thanks for the kindness to ask this. I like the British friendly language!
		
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Im still lost


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## Dolcé (14 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			All you're life... and you're 66
I read in other post...20 years...15 years...pulling ragwort to lose it.

That's a long time , especially if written by some people here that no new plants come up when you pull out the plant.

I have some questions reading this:

Like Alec, a lot of people say that ragworth is coming up more and more...
What do the people here think is the reason for that ?

Why is it taken so long to lose the ragwort from you're pastures when pulling is so successfull as written down by a lot of people here?
		
Click to expand...

Ragwort seeds can remain dormant in the ground for as long as 20 years, when the ground becomes disturbed then they begin to germinate, horses make the ground perfect for them to do this because of the damage their hooves do on wet ground.  Ragwort is appearing more and more because it is not being adequately controlled by either local authorities on their land nor by some farmers.  When we pull the ragwort in our fields it may take years to eliminate it completely (assuming no further contamination during that time), it does decrease year on year though and eventually would just be the odd plant.  The most important thing anyone can do is prevent it seeding.

As much as I think it is a lovely plant to look at (smells awful though) it would not bother me one bit to see it completely eradicated in this country, and I am quite sure I am not the only one.  If that means losing the cinnabar moth too then so be it!

What would be really, really interesting would be if Professor Knottenbelt appeared on here to answer the rubbish being claimed about him!  I would not dream of going on to a forum in another country and badmouthing such a highly respected professional and I feel quite put out that you seem to find that acceptable!

Please feel free to cultivate as much ragwort as you wish in your own country and leave us in peace to manage our pastures as we see fit!


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## cptrayes (14 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Let me ask a question.
Why do you and other people in England defend a person that come with false information and put the entire country into a "ragwort" panic ?
		
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I do not defend him.

No-one has defended him against your suggestion that his ragwort research is flawed.

I do not recognise your term "ragwort panic" in relation to anything that I see going on in this country.

We do not care because it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever as to how we actually manage our land that Knottenbelt has, or has not, exaggerated the risks.

The fact is that ragwort is poisonous to horses. It is also easy to spot and easy to remove. So we do. And we check forage that we buy to make sure there is none dried in it, or we check it in the field before it is made.

Nothing that you or Esther have written is going to change any of that. So we are all completely flummoxed as to why you are posting this stuff at all. 

Please stop, for all our sakes. I am not xenophobic but I am now heartily sick of being told by two Dutch people what is going on in my own country, and of being given dangerous advice on the management of my own land.


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## Dolcé (14 June 2012)

Jacobskruiskruid zaden kunnen slapend in de grond blijven zo lang als 20 jaar, wanneer de grond wordt dan verstoord ze beginnen te ontkiemen, paarden maken het terrein ideaal voor hen om dit te doen vanwege de schade die hun hoeven doen op natte grond. Jacobskruiskruid is verschijnen er steeds meer, omdat het niet voldoende onder controle door een van beide plaatselijke autoriteiten op hun land, noch door een aantal boeren. Toen we het Jacobskruiskruid te trekken in onze velden het kan jaren duren om volledig te elimineren (ervan uitgaande dat geen verdere besmetting in die tijd), het doet verminderen jaar op jaar al en uiteindelijk zou gewoon de oneven plant. Het belangrijkste wat iedereen kan doen is voorkomen dat het zaaien. Zo veel als ik denk dat het een mooie plant om naar te kijken (stinkt wel) zou het niet de moeite mij een beetje om het te zien volledig uitgeroeid in dit land, en ik ben er vrij zeker van dat ik ben niet de enige. Als dat betekent dat het verlies van de cinnaber mot ook het zij zo! Wat zou eigenlijk zijn, zou echt interessant zijn als professor Knottenbelt verscheen op hier om het afval wordt beweerd over hem te beantwoorden! Ik zou er niet aan denken over te gaan tot een forum in een ander land en groffe woorden die een zeer gerespecteerde professional en ik voel me wel op dat je lijkt te vinden dat acceptabel te zetten! Voel je vrij om te kweken zo veel Jacobskruiskruid als je wilt in je eigen land en ons met rust te laten om onze weiden te beheren zoals wij dat nodig achten!


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## EstherHegt (14 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			do not agree with it. Neither will a lot of other people. Please respect that and stop repeating yourself ad nauseam.
		
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OK, it is clear, people in UK want to feed ragwort to prevent laminitis and they don't want a solution for good pasture management. Bad horsemanship. I have a PPID horse ( before they called it Cushing) , and  I can manage that with gras that is suitable for horses, maybe look at this site http://www.safergrass.org/ because all horse owners know how difficult is. But EMS or PPID also need good management. My horse do well, in a good pasture. I will try to make a photo from our mammuth in pasture with good management, it will be tomorrow.


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## marlyclay (14 June 2012)

horserider said:



			I remember you and your 'save-ragwort' agenda. Go away.
		
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yes well said, that speaks for the majority of us.


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## EstherHegt (14 June 2012)

Dolcé;10803542 said:
			
		


			Jacobskruiskruid zaden kunnen slapend in de grond blijven zo lang als 20 jaar, wanneer de grond wordt dan verstoord ze beginnen te ontkiemen, paarden maken het terrein ideaal voor hen om dit te doen vanwege de schade die hun hoeven doen op natte grond. Jacobskruiskruid is verschijnen er steeds meer, omdat het niet voldoende onder controle door een van beide plaatselijke autoriteiten op hun land, noch door een aantal boeren. Toen we het Jacobskruiskruid te trekken in onze velden het kan jaren duren om volledig te elimineren (ervan uitgaande dat geen verdere besmetting in die tijd), het doet verminderen jaar op jaar al en uiteindelijk zou gewoon de oneven plant. Het belangrijkste wat iedereen kan doen is voorkomen dat het zaaien. Zo veel als ik denk dat het een mooie plant om naar te kijken (stinkt wel) zou het niet de moeite mij een beetje om het te zien volledig uitgeroeid in dit land, en ik ben er vrij zeker van dat ik ben niet de enige. Als dat betekent dat het verlies van de cinnaber mot ook het zij zo! Wat zou eigenlijk zijn, zou echt interessant zijn als professor Knottenbelt verscheen op hier om het afval wordt beweerd over hem te beantwoorden! Ik zou er niet aan denken over te gaan tot een forum in een ander land en groffe woorden die een zeer gerespecteerde professional en ik voel me wel op dat je lijkt te vinden dat acceptabel te zetten! Voel je vrij om te kweken zo veel Jacobskruiskruid als je wilt in je eigen land en ons met rust te laten om onze weiden te beheren zoals wij dat nodig achten!
		
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I like your post!!! Google translate did not everything right, but I like the time you did for this. That is trying to commicate and investing in understanding each other.
I would really like proffesor Knottenbelt would respond in public and explain his nonsense!!


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## cptrayes (14 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			OK, it is clear, people in UK want to feed ragwort to prevent laminitis and they don't want a solution for good pasture management.
		
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I used to like the Dutch.

Please go away before you bring any more of your countrymen into disrepute in the UK.



...


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## Dolcé (14 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			I like your post!!! Google translate did not evreything right, but I like the time you did for this. That is trying to commicaate and investing in understanding each other.
I would really like proffesor Knottenbelt would respond in public and explain his nonsense!!
		
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LOL, I am sure it didn't and I just hope there was nothing rude in there!   

You are putting too much importance on Professor K's research (re ragwort - the rest of his research has probably contributed to most equine treatments known throughout the world), far more than we do in this country.  We control ragwort, on our own land, the way we see fit and were doing this long before Prof K pulled ragwort without gloves (FWIW I don't ever wear gloves when I do it so if I die of liver failure then I will look back and think "Professor Knottenbelt was right"!) 

You seem to think we are all panicking over here about ragwort whilst, to us, you are the one who is coming across as being hysterical about it, we just deal with it as we need to.  I don't believe there is anything at all that you can say that will change how we manage ragwort in this country.


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## Dolcé (14 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I used to like the Dutch.

Please go away before you bring any more of your countrymen into disrepute in the UK.



...
		
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I had an uncle that was Dutch, he used to pull ragwort (and had never heard of Professor Knottenbelt!) (True!!)


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## EstherHegt (14 June 2012)

Dolcé;10803609 said:
			
		


			I had an uncle that was Dutch, he used to pull ragwort (and had never heard of Professor Knottenbelt!) (True!!)
		
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We also do in the pasture, but before it is bloomiing, when it is blooming you have slept the year before


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## cptrayes (14 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			We also do in the pasture, but before it is bloomiing, when it is blooming you have slept the year before 

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Am I going mad?

We pull ragwort. Esther now says they pull ragwort. I think I just saw a unicorn shake hands with a mermaid. This whole thread is one crazy joke. I need some sleep, off to bed. Bye.


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## Queenbee (15 June 2012)

Wagtail said:



			OP, are you an orange and black caterpillar by any chance?
		
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one of the funniest posts Ive read in a long time


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## EstherHegt (15 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Am I going mad?

We pull ragwort. Esther now says they pull ragwort. I think I just saw a unicorn shake hands with a mermaid. This whole thread is one crazy joke. I need some sleep, off to bed. Bye.
		
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Esther never told you have need ragwort in the pasture, read what we write ;-) It is prejustice because I am done with the myths that makes people blind about our posts, luckily the Britisch people are very polite and read well ;-)
I love the ( non) arguments. 
My first post was about myths, they are confirmed, thanks all.


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## Ebenezer_Scrooge (15 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			The references about my  pasture managament page,  It wasn't possible to paste it after that page, everybody can control the references.

References:

1  Schneider, D. 1987. The strange fate of pyrrolizidine alkaloids. In: Chapman, R. F., E. A. Bernays & J. G.  Stoffolano (Eds.). Perspectives in chemoreception and behavior: Springer, Berlin/Heidenberg. 123-142.
2  Boppré, M. 1986. Insects pharmacophagously utilizing defensive plant chemicals (pyrrolizidine alkaloids).     Naturwissenschaften 73: 17-26
3  Macel, M. 2003. On the evolution of the diversity of pyrrolizidine alkaloids. The role of insects as selective forces.Thesis Leiden University.
4  Vos, J. H., A. A. J. Geerts, J. W. Borgers, M. H. Mars, J. A. M. Muskens & L. A. van Wuijckhuise-Sjouke. 2002.     Jacobskruiskruid: bedrieglijke schoonheid. Tijdschr. Diergeneesk. 127: 753-756.
5  Giles, C. J. 1983. Outbreak of ragwort (Senecio jacobaea) poisoning in horses. Equine Veterinary Journal 15: 248- 250.
6  Bain, J. F. 1991. The biology of Canadian weeds. 96. Senecio jacobaea L. Canadian Journal of Plant Science. 71:127-140.
7  Poole, A. L. & D. Cairns. 1940. Botanical aspects of Ragwort (Senecio jacobaea L.) control. Department of Scientific and Industrial Research Bulletin 82: 2-61.
8  Harper, J. L. & W. A. Wood. 1957. Senecio jacobaea L. The Journal of Ecology 45: 617-637.
9  Weeda E.J., R. Westra, CH. Westra & T. Westra. 1987. De Nederlandse oecologische flora, wilde planten en hun     relaties.
10 McLaren, D. & F. Mickan, 1997 The Ragwort Management Handbook., Department of Natural Resources and Environment. Melbourne.
11 McLaren, D. & I. Faitfull, 2004 Ragwort management. Department of Natural Resources and Environment.Melbourne.
12 Muyt, A. 2001. Bush invaders of south-east Australia. R.G. & F.J. Richardson, Meredith, Vic.
13 Parsons, W. T. & E. G. Cuthbertson, 2001. Noxious Weeds of Australia. 2nd Ed. Collingwood, CSIRO Landlinks Press Australia.
14 Myers, J. 2005. Managing Horses on Small Properties. CSIRO Landlinks Press Australia.
website
15 Watts. K. 2007. Rocky Mountain Research and Consulting, Inc. 491 West CR 8 North Center, CO 81125
website
16 Horse Forage and Forage Management 1997-2007. The Samuel Roberts Noble Foundation, Inc.
website
17 Waller, S. S., E. M. Lowel, L. E. Moser, G. A. Gates & P. E. Reece. 1985. Understanding Grass Growth: The Key to Profitable Livestock Production.
website
18 Pihlajamaa-Glimmerveen, L. E. 2006. Grassen de basis van onze beschaving.
website
19 Smith, D. 1973. Nonstructural Carbohydrates. Butler, G. W. & R. W. Bailey (Eds.). Chemistry and Biochemistry of herbage. Academic Press, London:1: 105-155.
20 Veldman, F. H. M. & I. Kooistra. 2006. Fructaanpagina, Paard natuurlijk.
website
21 Watts, K. A. 2005. Unlikely sources of excess carbohydrate in equine diets. Journal of Equine Veterinary Science  25: 338-344.
		
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What a load of tosh & also the references you used are all out of date in academic terms....no current research then in favour of "ragworth"


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## EstherHegt (15 June 2012)

Ebenezer_Scrooge said:



			What a load of tosh & also the references you used are all out of date in academic terms....no current research then in favour of "ragworth" 

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LOL take this recent one http://edepot.wur.nl/167548


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## Alec Swan (15 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Esther never told you have need ragwort in the pasture, read what we write ;-) It is prejustice because I am done with the myths that makes people blind about our posts, luckily the Britisch people are very polite and read well ;-)
I love the ( non) arguments. 
My first post was about myths, they are confirmed, thanks all.
		
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Esther,  whilst I accept that English isn't your first language,  and I also accept that you've done your best,  I may not be alone in that I'm struggling to understand the above comments.

I'm not avoiding the issue,  I promise you,  but if you are to argue,  then the opposition (that's us,  apparently) need to be able to have a clear understanding of your points,  I don't,  and I'm sorry.

Alec.


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## Queenbee (15 June 2012)

blazingsaddles said:



			The Association for Ragwort Species Enlightenment (ARSE) are certifiably insane. Ragwort is my enemy. If I so much as see an inkling of the devil plant, it is dug up and suffers an excruciating death by burning. This small act brings me great pleasure.

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PMSL



EstherHegt said:



			That is because I did triggered some I think?  My first post was clear, the first response was angry and a lot repeated that and became angry and stopped thinking ;-)
		
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I actually think it must have been you and your friends who stopped thinking... a very long time ago.  Your 'management' suggestions are incredulous, there are 14 pages because people just cant understand what you must have hit your head on to be spouting such absolute stupidity. You must also understand that there are a great deal of intelligent, knowledgable, experienced people on here who have no problem investigating and researching new theories, people are always willing to try new things and explore new techniques, but your arguments are so flawed and dangerous, you have of course angered a lot of people on here. I suggest you go and play with your catterpillars and deal with the lamanitic horses that you get from putting them on lush fertillised grazing, far more risky in my opinion than pulling up highly toxic weeds... FACT not MYTH!


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## Dolcé (15 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Esther never told you have need ragwort in the pasture, read what we write ;-) It is prejustice because I am done with the myths that makes people blind about our posts, luckily the Britisch people are very polite and read well ;-)
I love the ( non) arguments. 
My first post was about myths, they are confirmed, thanks all.
		
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I have just looked at the English version of your site and I am not really sure why you originally posted, there is nothing on there that I didn't already know, having researched ragwort some years ago.  I don't think I know anybody who believes the 'myths' over the facts, the site contains only information that is common knowledge.  As far as I can see the only thing you are concerned about is the research done by Professor Knottenbelt into the effect of handling ragwort.  In several of the previoous posts on this thread it has been said that Prof K admitted to you that mistakes were made - I do not believe this.  What I do think is that he told you it wasn't a 'scientifically controlled' research, he also told you that he has suffered liver damage due to handling ragwort.  

I would suggest that, before you write on a public forum that his research, regarding ingestion through the skin, is wrong, you should as experts arrange for this to be scientifically proven.  How about you carry out a controlled test as to the effects of handling the plant and then you will be in a position to put us all right on this  fact.

Having actually looked at the site you are advocating I'm afraid I am now another who believes that there is perhaps a personal vendetta against Professor Knottenbelt - there is no other explanation for the content of your OP.


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## EstherHegt (15 June 2012)

Dolcé;10803685 said:
			
		


			I have just looked at the English version of your site and I am not really sure why you or

I would suggest that, before you write on a public forum that his research, regarding ingestion through the skin, is wrong, you should as experts arrange for this to be scientifically proven.
		
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We did.


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## Dolcé (15 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			LOL take this recent one http://edepot.wur.nl/167548

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OK, so again nothing I didn't already know BUT it clearly states that the effects on humans through skin ingestion is still being researched and are at the moment unknown!  I think huge apologies are due to Professor Knottenbelt who you have seriously bad mouthed on this thread for something that hasn't been proven as being wrong.


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## Dolcé (15 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			We did.
		
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Link please?


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## rhino (15 June 2012)

Dolcé;10803704 said:
			
		


			Link please?
		
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Also a link to the ASA adjudication that I asked for pages ago please, it's most odd that I can't find it on searching their database


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## Alec Swan (15 June 2012)

Dolcé;10803685 said:
			
		


			.......

Having actually looked at the site you are advocating I'm afraid I am now another who believes that there is perhaps a personal vendetta against Professor Knottenbelt - there is no other explanation for the content of your OP.
		
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Interesting that this comment hasn't received a denial.

Alec.


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## rhino (15 June 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Interesting that this comment hasn't received a denial.

Alec.
		
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They all but admitted it a page or so ago, in a somewhat vulgar response 



rhino said:



			I think the point is an ongoing vendetta against Prof. Knottenbelt   Nothing more, nothing less.
		
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EstherHegt said:



			who burns his buttocks has to sit on the blisters
		
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## Dolcé (15 June 2012)

rhino said:



			They all but admitted it a page or so ago, in a somewhat vulgar response 

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I saw your comment Rhino and then after actually reading the English site realised that it was the only genuine complaint they could have, everything else is common knowledge over here for anyone that has ever bothered looking into ragwort.  

I will be interested to see the results of the scientific research carried out which proves that handling the plant is not harmful.


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## Nick Altena (15 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I do not defend him.

No-one has defended him against your suggestion that his ragwort research is flawed.
		
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Yes they did....




			I do not recognise your term "ragwort panic" in relation to anything that I see going on in this country.
		
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Oke, a question again 
why the hate for this plant in recent years (afther "his" studies) while the same plant growing plenty in your country for centuries?
(i am 53 and from my 16the so far I visit England every year and have see al lot ragwort in all those years... )
Did the horse onwers not know this plant before ?
Keep people than horses all these years without knowing what is and is not good for them?
That say a lot....





			We do not care because it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever as to how we actually manage our land that Knottenbelt has, or has not, exaggerated the risks.
		
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??? you do not care how you actually manage your land  ???
The most important point if you keep a horse???
As studies have proven that pull out plants by hand (or "special" ragwort-fork) does not work and brings you more harm than it solves you have no intrest and do not care ? It makes no difference to you ??

[/QUOTE]
The fact is that ragwort is poisonous to horses. [/QUOTE]

We never disagree that point

[/QUOTE]
It is also easy to spot and easy to remove.[/QUOTE]

Ummmm not for all people i gess, there are a lot of requests on our forum for plants to identify because they can not see if it is ragwort.
The most confusion is in the rosette of dandelion as an example.
And psssst.... those questions also come from...(we can see where people come from...also the site they come from  )




			So we do. And we check forage that we buy to make sure there is none dried in it, or we check it in the field before it is made.
		
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Not every body can visit or have the field, when you buy by a wholesale for example you never know where its coming from.(in the Netherlands at least, i don't know that for England) 

Is there a controlling authority or label in England for ragwort free hay ?
We do have this in de Netherlands to solve this problem. (thanks to Esther and other people)




			Nothing that you or Esther have written is going to change any of that. So we are all completely flummoxed as to why you are posting this stuff at all.
		
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one of the problems is ... if you , all horse-owners in England , look no further than your own problem... and so nothing wil change....all the other that has taken over the same info from this Proff. still believe what they read on every site in England.
And thát is because it is simply a fact that the English language by many people can read and understood 




			Please stop, for all our sakes.
		
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Again....
Stop with what ?
Is it forbidden for us as outsiders to write and learn something here , for example why English people still believe the old and not correct info ?

If so... I was capable and FREE to register here.
There was nothing in the rules that makes me clear that a discussion was not allowed.
Ask the moderator to close this forum for us and other strangers , then you have a select group of like-minded and you have no "problems" like this in the future....

Thank god we think different for people outsite the Netherlands... I would be ashamed if I had this setting on our forum ! 




			I am not xenophobic but I am now heartily sick of being told by two Dutch people what is going on in my own country, and of being given dangerous advice on the management of my own land.
		
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We do not give dangerouse advice, if so tell me were we did and what that dangerous info is.

it is the impression we get from anywhere on English site's with outdated info to encounter so we think that horse owner in England doing nothing the last past years to look for facts that are based on solid research 

Esther (and i) gave that info here with references of experts and the latest info on ragwort, but what do you people here do with it ?

Nothing but complaints about the English writing and tell no intrest...

WHY ??? we don't understand why the most of you in England as horse-owners don't want to look at the last information about ragwort and don't want to know that what is told to you by the media the last past years is not correct because.... 

But you're lucky...
I probably have to leave you for a few days.... maybe even visit you're country !
But that is because I also know there are friendly people living there...


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## rhino (15 June 2012)

Please link directly to the scientific study carried out by the BHS. You claim an _estimate_ of 6500 deaths per annum is excessive, and it may well be, but (a) it appears to be only ever have been claimed as an estimate, and (b) the fact that the vast majority of reporting veterinarians had seen cases of equine ragwort toxicity over the relevant timescale would tend to suggest that it is not as 'rare' as you claim.

Show to me exactly when and where Professor Knottenbelt insisted that 1000 horses died a year of ragwort poisoning, not as an 'estimate' but as an 'absolute'. 

You claim that there are only 13 cases approximately of equine ragwort toxicity per annum in the UK. Do you not feel this is a deeply misleading figure, when post mortems are EXTREMELY uncommon in this country? You don't find it conceivable that a large number of horses dying of liver disease are as a result of ragwort poisoning? Really?

Please link directly to the scientific study you claim you have undertaken which proves entirely that it is impossible for the harmful toxins to be passed on through skin.

Please link directly to the numerous studies you claim to prove that the amount of ragwort growing in this country (oh, and would you please refer to us as the UK; we are not all in England or English you know ), NOT the distribution, has decreased or remained static in the last, say, 30 years.

Oh, and personal vendettas, unsubstantiated, ongoing attacks aimed at a person or company are actually not allowed on the forum.

I don't honestly care how many horses ragwort kills. One is too many. I will continue to ensure that animals in my care do not have access to it.


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## Dolcé (15 June 2012)

I have read the latest research that was linked, the one that contained nothing about ragwort that I didn't already know (and is freely available on many of our own sites) and *clearly* stated that, as yet, research on the effects of handling was not complete and it was *unknown* whether or not it is harmful.  

Once again, you ignore all previous comments, ignore requests for links because, in fact, it is yourself and Esther who are unwilling to listen to anything said that you don't agree with.

I will be making Professor Knottenbelt aware of this thread and I am sure he will be interested to read the libelous comments made by both you and Esther.  You have no evidence that proves he was wrong in his findings, you lie that he told you he made mistakes, or twisted his words to suit yourself at the very least.  I find you offensive!


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## Nick Altena (15 June 2012)

Queenbee said:



			PMSL



I actually think it must have been you and your friends who stopped thinking... a very long time ago.  Your 'management' suggestions are incredulous, there are 14 pages because people just cant understand what you must have hit your head on to be spouting such absolute stupidity.
		
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exactly what part do you not understand and find dangerous statement ?




			You must also understand that there are a great deal of intelligent, knowledgable, experienced people on here
		
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Yes, someone mentioned that earlier, and that just amazes me even more that no eyes have opened here on the statements of the man that I should not call...

When so intelligent as you say...I think as perhaps less intelligent person...
They then must know from the beginning that it is nonses this PA is comming to you're hands and then distroy you're liver....

There is a lot more wrong in the information you get in England... but by this one i expect you .... as an intelligent person ... had to ask your self questions about this persons " proven fact" how the hell he prove that?

You also know as a intelligent person with intrest in the subject...there is still NO methode to prove that only the ragwort has causes the liver damage , unless you give youre horse a overdose and/or only ragwort

You also has to know as such a intelligent person that there have been no 6000 dead horses specifically for this study (looking at the cost)




			who have no problem investigating and researching new theories, people are always willing to try new things and explore new techniques,
		
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I did not notice that in most of the reactions...
The most reactions from al those intelligent people here i notice is about the poor english and the announcment to go away.. is that intelligent ?
Is that the way the intelligent writers here teach people  in what they think is wrong ?




			but your arguments are so flawed and dangerous, you have of course angered a lot of people on here.
		
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Again...were exactly is the dangerous part we wrote , qoute it for us so whe understand 




			I suggest you go and play with your catterpillars and deal with the lamanitic horses that you get from putting them on lush fertillised grazing, far more risky in my opinion than pulling up highly toxic weeds... FACT not MYTH!
		
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Yehhh...that's a verry intelligent answer !! ... oeps sorry... advice....
May i ask ? how old are you exactly ?


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## Nick Altena (15 June 2012)

I tink Esther is giveing you a lot answers on youre questions tomorrow.
But i have a few for you reading this post.



rhino said:



			Show to me exactly when and where Professor Knottenbelt insisted that 1000 horses died a year of ragwort poisoning, not as an 'estimate' but as an 'absolute'.
		
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Do you know HOW he get his numbers ?



			You claim that there are only 13 cases approximately of equine ragwort toxicity per annum in the UK. Do you not feel this is a deeply misleading figure, when post mortems are EXTREMELY uncommon in this country? You don't find it conceivable that a large number of horses dying of liver disease are as a result of ragwort poisoning? Really?
		
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Agian... do you know how he get his numbers ?




			Please link directly to the scientific study you claim you have undertaken which proves entirely that it is impossible for the harmful toxins to be passed on through skin.
		
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Nobody say its not posible.... but not in the way HE did it prove that its passed tough the skin (but that's maybe incorrectly described by me because the languageproblem)
But on the other site...
Do you know HOW the PA's work in the body ?




			Oh, and personal vendettas, unsubstantiated, ongoing attacks aimed at a person or company are actually not allowed on the forum.
		
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Correct...
I hope you also have see that same kind of info about a personal attack on members on this site ? 

To the point:
I don't write thing's that I am not sure of .... there is evidence
It's mentioned before... mail the person just like we did....and ask him your self.
(we say this because it is also not allowed to place (parts of) privat mail on the internet, but you know that also of course ) 

Its also not a personal vendatta , somebody is trying to tell you and the other people here about the things that do not fit because it was based on wrong research... and yes ... in thase case.....the man who did that wrong research this Proff
He also did good research, we know !! but not tis one.
But this is one you and many other people believe also... because its comming from... ?




			I don't honestly care how many horses ragwort kills. One is too many. I will continue to ensure that animals in my care do not have access to it.
		
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Qoute me were one of us say you must stop doing this...


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## Nick Altena (15 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			I tink Esther is giving you a lot answers on youre questions tomorrow.
But i have a few for you reading this post.

Do you know HOW he get his numbers ?

Nobody say its not posible that skin can take somethink up.... but not in the way HE did it prove correct that the PA's passed trough the skin (but that's maybe incorrectly described by me because the languageproblem)
But on the other site...
Do you know HOW the PA's work in the body ?

I hope you also have see that same kind of info about a personal attack on members on this site ? 

To the point:
I don't write thing's that I am not sure of .... there is evidence
It's mentioned before... mail the person just like we did....and ask him your self.
(we say this because it is also not allowed to place (parts of) privat mail on the internet, but you know that also of course ) 

Its also not a personal vendatta , somebody is trying to tell you and the other people here about the things that do not fit because it was based on wrong research... and yes ... in thase case.....the man who did that wrong research this Proff
He also did good research, we know !! but not tis one.
But this is one you and many other people believe also... because its comming from... ?



Quote me were one of us say you must stop doing the things youer are doing...
		
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## Nick Altena (15 June 2012)

Sorry...
I was trying to restore /edit my type errors and then I saw that parts of the quotes were gone.
I thought it was a to long post or so that give these quote errors...so get away  with all quotes.
Now i see i have simply put on the wrong button... not the edit but the quote 
Maybe the mod can remove this last 2 post ?


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## rhino (15 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Do you know HOW he get his numbers ?
		
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No, but as you won't direct me to where he makes these claims, I don't even know he *did* get these numbers, let alone how any studies were undertaken.

You still haven't answered whether the claims made that ragwort only kills around 13 horses in the UK per annum are in your opinion likely to be a gross underestimation. Lots of horses die from liver disease, very very few have post mortems. Prove to me that ragwort is responsible for so few deaths.

What, you can't? Don't you think it is worrying that in fact you have NO idea how many deaths in the UK are as a direct result of ragwort toxicity?




Nick Altena said:



			Nobody say its not posible.... but not in the way HE did it prove that its passed tough the skin (but that's maybe incorrectly described by me because the languageproblem)
But on the other site...
Do you know HOW the PA's work in the body ?
		
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Right, so it is possible? I'm entirely unsurprised by that.

What way did he 'prove' they could be passed through skin? *Prove*, not _suggest_, as we like facts here, not hearsay, don't we? 

I have a basic understanding yes, but if you'd like to steer me towards any relevant, concise articles explaining it I will endeavour to read them. 




Nick Altena said:



			Correct...
I hope you also have see that same kind of info about a personal attack on members on this site ?
		
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I have made no posts which I feel are rude or that contravene any terms and conditions. I have not commented on your language, as it would be deeply hypocritical of me to do so. Written English is not an easy language to master, and the time I have spent in the Netherlands, carrying out training for WHO personnel, has always left me feeling in awe of the level of spoken English.




Nick Altena said:



			To the point:
I don't write thing's that I am not sure of .... there is evidence
It's mentioned before... mail the person just like we did....and ask him your self.
(we say this because it is also not allowed to place (parts of) privat mail on the internet, but you know that also of course )
		
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I appreciate that, and you are quite right to do so, but it is you and your friends making accusations, and therefore it is up to you to provide proof. I am not going to waste the time of someone when you have failed to provide me with any evidence of him deliberately trying to mislead anyone. 



Nick Altena said:



			Its also not a personal vendatta , somebody is trying to tell you and the other people here about the things that do not fit because it was based on wrong research... and yes ... in thase case.....the man who did that wrong research this Proff
He also did good research, we know !! but not tis one.
But this is one you and many other people believe also... because its comming from... ?
		
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Show me the research please. I appreciate you have cut and pasted the entire reference list from your website, but to be perfectly honest I find plant science terminally dull, and would rather just see the key pieces of evidence you repeatedly claim to have.

rhino


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## rhino (15 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Maybe the mod can remove this last 2 post ?
		
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It is an unmoderated forum... Don't worry about mistakes, it's late and I'm sure I've made plenty too.


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## LittleWildOne (15 June 2012)

My head hurts ! 
Nick and Ester, everything you are trying to LECTURE to us about ragwort....we already know.
Implying that we don't care, or that we deliberately feed ragwort to our horses is extremely rude, patronising and completely uncalled for.
Trying to LECTURE to us about how to manage our grazing is, to an extent dangerous, due to the very high risk of horses contracting laminitis.
Are you aware of the causes and effects of grass induced laminitis.
Horse owners here in the UK try our best to manage the land upon which our horses graze. We do not all OWN the fields we use, but manage the control of ragwort as best as we can. A field can be completely free from ragwort, while the SURROUNDING land is full of the stuff. This surrounding land DOES NOT belong to horse owners, but to local authoroties (councils), (some) farmers, and other people who do not own horses. It is THEY who do not control the ragwort on roadside verges, wasteland, set-aside land, etc, NOT horse owners.
I'm sure you are perfectly aware of HOW ragwort seed dispersal happens, so, WE remove ragwort only to have seeds blown in the wind or carried on the fur of wildlife INTO our grazing.
Perhaps you should target your LECTURING at every council and land owner in the UK and tell THEM how to "manage" ragwort, not horse owners on ONE forum.
I'm not being rude.....BUT.....your posts, which are often very long, repetitive, and tedious, appear to be implying that we are stupid !
You are saying the same thing over and over and over again, which is why people are getting annoyed. Your posts are making us out to be idiots so stop it now.
Yes, it would be lovely to graze our horses in "perfect" squares of lush green grass with a dense sward which is relatively weed free, but the majority of horses and ponies here in the UK are BRITISH NATIVE BREEDS AND THEIR CROSSES (part breds, eg Tb x native as one example). Our NATIVE breeds have evolved over thousands of years to survive on POOR uncultivated pasture, NOT, "perfect" lush, weed free fertilized grass. Please take the time to read up on laminitis.
(By "Native" breeds, I include - Shetland, Dartmoor, Exmoor, Welsh, Fell, Dales, Highland, New Forest and Connemara ponies, and also Shire, Clydesdale, Suffolk Punch, Irish Draught, Cleveland Bay, Hackney and even Thoroughbred horses).
Oh, and farmers here who grow hay (or more commonly, haylage, due to our climate) SPRAY THEIR HAY/HAYLAGE FIELDS WITH HERBICIDES TO ERADICATE WEEDS FROM THE CROP .

I am another who suspects your main agenda is to blacken the name of Professor Knottenbelt.

Sorry UK people, I HAD to say that


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## EstherYoung (15 June 2012)

My head hurts.....

But from one Esther to another, I can confirm that we strongly suspect that our old TB who we lost last year had ragwort induced liver problems. However, we never got him biopsied and he didn't have a PM, as our vet was happy to take the pragmatic approach of 'if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....'. We didn't see the point in putting an old boy through an invasive procedure when the blood test showed his liver was kaputt and it wasn't going to change the way we treated him. Our old boy therefore won't appear on any stats and, as I would strongly suggest that we're not alone in not getting a biopsy or a PM on a liver damaged horse, neither will many others.

He was a tough old booger though, as although he was never cured, he pulled back from the acute attack and lived another four years before we called it a day. Although his liver problems weren't entirely responsible for the decision to call it a day, they were a heavily weighted factor as it meant that treatment options for his other conditions were limited.


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## Nick Altena (15 June 2012)

rhino said:



			No, but as you won't direct me to where he makes these claims, I don't even know he *did* get these numbers, let alone how any studies were undertaken.
		
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When you don't even know HOW he get is bumbers... how do you know they are correct.
We know how he did this , otherwise we wrote not that this is not a proper investigation.




			What, you can't? Don't you think it is worrying that in fact you have NO idea how many deaths in the UK are as a direct result of ragwort toxicity?
		
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No, I think its worrying that a professor is gambeling in his research...
That is something we al can do... makes us that all a Proffessor ? 
How much more did he gamble .....




			What way did he 'prove' they could be passed through skin? *Prove*, not _suggest_, as we like facts here, not hearsay, don't we?
		
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he shaved a rat and used a bearing ointment that is absorbed through the skin




			I have made no posts which I feel are rude or that contravene any terms and conditions. I have not commented on your language, as it would be deeply hypocritical of me to do so. Written English is not an easy language to master, and the time I have spent in the Netherlands, carrying out training for WHO personnel, has always left me feeling in awe of the level of spoken English.
		
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And i thank you for that , but a yot of you here is rude and give that comment instead of substantive comments.
That's not the way we think and work, this make us sad....


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## alsiola (15 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			...the man that I should not call...
		
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Beware Professor Voldemort.


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## touchstone (15 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			And i thank you for that , but a yot of you here is rude and give that comment instead of substantive comments.
That's not the way we think and work, this make us sad....
		
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Keeping prof Knottenbelt out of it, what I think *is* rude is the assumption that we are all hysterical about ragwort and ignorant about pasture management and need lecturing on it!

I think most here are fully aware that a dense sward can help suppress weeds, however allowing grass to grow to 6cm as per your recommendation would leave my laminitic pony crippled.  

Far easier to keep the grass well grazed with sheep and control weeds as they appear.   If you think this is bad management then so be it, and I agree that if I was cultivating perfect pasture it wouldn't be ideal, but it *is* ideal for my horses which is what matters.


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## Murphy88 (15 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			When you don't even know HOW he get is bumbers... how do you know they are correct.
We know how he did this , otherwise we wrote not that this is not a proper investigation.

No, I think its worrying that a professor is gambeling in his research...
That is something we al can do... makes us that all a Proffessor ? 
How much more did he gamble .....

he shaved a rat and used a bearing ointment that is absorbed through the skin.
		
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Ah, so now Derek Knottenbelt has made up even more of his research? He is a Professor because he is a world expert in opthalmology, dermatology, endocrinology and neonatology, amongst other things, and has done more for animal welfare (and human welfare through his charity) than virtually any other vet - in the field of veterinary medicine, we generally do things like peer-review research, so I think we can safely say that Prof K's research wouldn't have been published had it not been accurate. 

Feel free to keep trying to damage the reputation of Prof K, you will be going a long time with no success - he is a legend, who probably knows more about horses than the rest of us on this thread put together, and those of us who actually know him and have been taught by him will never believe he is anything other than a God of veterinary medicine!


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## EstherHegt (15 June 2012)

ignorance of real knowledge kills far more horses, then ragwort!


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## MerrySherryRider (15 June 2012)

Strange isn't it, how a internationally respected expert like Professor Knottenbelt, who has done so much for horse welfare, can find himself the object of a smear campaign by those with another agenda.
 When you insult Professor Knottenbelt, you insult us all.


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## touchstone (15 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			ignorance of real knowledge kills far more horses, then ragwort!
		
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As does putting laminitics on lush pasture


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## cptrayes (15 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Yes they did....



Oke, a question again 
why the hate for this plant in recent years (afther "his" studies) while the same plant growing plenty in your country for centuries?
(i am 53 and from my 16the so far I visit England every year and have see al lot ragwort in all those years... )
Did the horse onwers not know this plant before ?
Keep people than horses all these years without knowing what is and is not good for them?
That say a lot....
		
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Ragwort has been listed in legislation in this country since at least 1959 as a plant that needs control in areas grazed by animals. I'm reasonably sure "he" was a child when that legislation went through parliament.




Nick Altena said:



			??? you do not care how you actually manage your land  ???
The most important point if you keep a horse???
As studies have proven that pull out plants by hand (or "special" ragwort-fork) does not work and brings you more harm than it solves you have no intrest and do not care ? It makes no difference to you ??
		
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Your arrogance is astounding. 

I live in an area which is heavily subsidised by EU funds (which I do not claim) to ensure that we keep fertility levels low in order to provide the habitats required by rare ground nesting birds and brown hare. I have also worked on my 12 acres for 20 years to ensure that it remains free of ragwort by pulling it up by hand and it does not seem to matter how many times I tell you that I have NEVER had a plant regrow in the same spot, you just do not want to hear it. I therefore own a perfect wildflower hill meadow with an incredible variety of plants including natural wormers, in which my horses wander freely and  pick and choose what plants they need at that point in time. They also have room to gallop madly about, like  a horse, which they would not have if I followed Esther's advice to section my grazing and rotate it. 

Your way is not the only way, and I personally do not consider it the best way.





Nick Altena said:



			Is there a controlling authority or label in England for ragwort free hay ?
We do have this in de Netherlands to solve this problem. (thanks to Esther and other people)
		
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No, we need one. If you want to help us set one up that would be great, do it. But that isn't what this thread is about, is it?  Not a word said about how she achieved that, how we might implement it in this country or whether it would even be possible.  Meanwhile people like me buy from reputable sources, and I personally only buy what I have seen grown.

Aside from that suggestion, the reason that we are completely uninterested in what you are saying is that it makes no difference whether Knottenbelt is right or wrong.

We all agree ragwort is poisonous and needs to be removed or prevented. We know how to manage horse pasture, thankyou, and we do not need lecturing by you and Esther in how to do that. NOTHING is going to change whether Prof K has over-egged the pudding or not and therefore your agenda on here has to be to bring him into disrepute and nothing else.


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## Clava (15 June 2012)

CP - you are lucky to never have a plant regrow in the same spot, as I posted earlier I have seen them do this (and more than several plants in the old spot!) but it entirely depends at what stage of the growth the plant is pulled, at the rosette stage can be a disaster.


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## cptrayes (15 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			ignorance of real knowledge kills far more horses, then ragwort!
		
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Yes, Esther, but the "real knowledge" that you are trying to impart to us, that Prof K has overstated the danger of ragwort, will not save one single horse. So why are you even writing about it?

If he had UNDERstated the danger, that would be different. But there is no harm in treating a commonly found poisonous plant as more poisonous than it is.

The only poison I think we need to worry about on this thread is in your attitude to Prof K. and I wonder where it comes from. Can you tell me - have you or someone close to you ever had a horse treated by Professor Knottenbelt or by Leahurst Hospital, and, if so, did that horse survive?


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## cptrayes (15 June 2012)

Clava said:



			CP - you are lucky to never have a plant regrow in the same spot, as I posted earlier I have seen them do this (and more than several plants in the old spot!) but it entirely depends at what stage of the growth the plant is pulled, at the rosette stage can be a disaster.
		
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Yes, Clava, we established that earlier. I pull grown plants, not rosettes, and I don't think 20 years of pulling can really be called "luck", do you? ANother poster said that they had found the same from pulling grown plants. Clearing rosettes by pulling is obviously not a good idea, as I acknowledged earlier.


There is always weedkiller if people are having problems controlling ragwort by hand. I do my docks and thistles with a spray because those you can't pull.


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## touchstone (15 June 2012)

Clava said:



			CP - you are lucky to never have a plant regrow in the same spot, as I posted earlier I have seen them do this (and more than several plants in the old spot!) but it entirely depends at what stage of the growth the plant is pulled, at the rosette stage can be a disaster.
		
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I'm another that hasn't had ragwort regrow after pulling, even at the rosette stage. I do use a trowel/weeder to dig out the rosettes and it seems to work fine


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## Crugeran Celt (15 June 2012)

touchstone said:



			I'm another that hasn't had ragwort regrow after pulling, even at the rosette stage. I do use a trowel/weeder to dig out the rosettes and it seems to work fine 

Click to expand...

I use a 'rag fork' when the plant has flowered but not seeded and the plants do not regrow as the fork pulls them out root and all. I do get more plants as surrounding fields are not treated at all and are left to seed. These fields are plastered with ragwort so it is inevitable that seeds land and grow on my pasture. I set aside rag pulling weekend the same time every year and just go out and pull it, it works!


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## Crugeran Celt (15 June 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			I use a 'rag fork' when the plant has flowered but not seeded and the plants do not regrow as the fork pulls them out root and all. I do get more plants as surrounding fields are not treated at all and are left to seed. These fields are plastered with ragwort so it is inevitable that seeds land and grow on my pasture. I set aside rag pulling weekend the same time every year and just go out and pull it, it works!
		
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Forgot to say that I usually try to do this after a little wet weather as the ragwort comes away easier.


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## SaharaS (15 June 2012)

is a smear campaign against a person/individual not against forum rules? ie against dr K???

was thinking as you seem to be setting up a self preservation society for ragwort & its lovers, please leave an address and we can forward all our unwanted ragwort to you???

Clearly we responding here all understand and deal with the dangers of ragwort but the frankly irresponsible op & cronies are putting forward an argument that is confused and therefore endangering new owners & new horse persons who might stumble upon this thread, not read or understand the entire thread due to alot of garbled mumbo jumbo and make their decision that its no big deal. It is a big deal and it is a non instant and cumulative big deal-welfare is hopefully our joint aim here or so op and cronies claim. so yes hate things that you see as myths and legend, but don't jeopardise welfare by imposing your questionings on others. 

Sheep eat ragwort yes and merrily so..but they are still very much suseptible to its horrific & crippling effects-just as others have mentioned are masked by the longevity of most non -pet sheep. 

I have a very personal issue with ragwort from a different angle as well as the obvious horse/animal welfare point of view.I do wonder if many auto immune conditions & neurological conditions in horses /animals and humans for eg ME, fibromyalgia,lupus etc may not have links to exposure whether it be as a result of handling the weed or by it entering the body via the food chain. I suffer from 2 of these conditions after a spinal injury with complications. I know my limits & how best to avoid flare ups & triggers so can controll my day to day & acheive the most i can with minimal pain/numbing.. yet have a flare up if have come into contact with ragwort.I was told it was probably that both conditions were underlying (possibly my genetic makeup tho not inherrited and exacerbated by the accident and for example if i have a good day painwise i can pull up ragwort for half an hour or an hour and will have an agonising flare up for days or weeks after. yet at other times I can pull eg nettles milk thistle and other herbal weeds which i use for herbal supplements and animal self medication-(zoopharmacognosy) yet can have no effect from the same or longer time spent doing so - and I don't simply mean the stiffness you may get from weeding & physical work. I did an hour of ragwort pulling last week and have spent every morning since unable to get up without a struggle, straightening my legs with my arms..joint stiffness to the point I feel as tho i am contained by an over tight harness or gaffer tape-it took me 3 hours to physically get myself strong enough to get out of bed & get out to get the animals done. yet you say no /little/minimal effect to humans from picking/exposure. Really. I know my catalysts, this is one-it cannot be coincidental as this is now year 8 of my experience since my accident and I've been surrounded by horses/farm animals since birth so am by no means a newcomer to any of this.

I think your posts have such an element of confusion that they could pose a threat to animals/newcomers who read this which is in my humble opinion very irresponsible. I know most on here are highly intelligent & incredibly experienced & very well informed, yet I cannot guarantee every reader who stumbles across this will be the same and will have the surrounding & background experience to make sense of it and a safe sensible informed decision which will in turn directly affect animals in their care/their neighbours animals.

 Ragwort is found for a very good example on moorland, commons & hills(say welsh/yorkshire/dartmoor etc etc national parkland) as well as on railways and pasture and owned land whether that with scarce grazing or not. it is deadly wherever it is and by its very nature spreads itself so you need not fear its demise. 

Sheep/horses/goats/cattle whether wild or not will either leave it or eat it on purpose or inadvertantly when dried either in feed/hay or simply when clipped by passing hooves when it then becomes palletable.

It is cumulative toxicity at all times.end of. 

If you have seen situations where animals willingly eat the green ragwort plant, even on lush pasture(owned or wild) consider that they are using it as a toxin to purge their system/to make them selves sick/die/rid their body of the issue they are trying to self medicate for-possibly even underlying ragwort poisoning...????

Animals instinctively know toxins from safe herbs and if no safe herbs are available, will resort to poisonous toxins such as ragwort, or say rhododendron for goats which can be fatal also. 

My thoughts on this are that those animals seeking out ragwort  & willingly eating it may very well be trying to rid their system of internal pain/discomfort that is as yet invisible to the observer -another take on the phrase natural selection. so whatever your issues are with us and the world in general..and while I appreciate it is  important to learn new things on a daily basis, don't come here spreading peace love & ragwort & love to all ragwort kind....we don't need it and we don't need you.neither do any unfortunate naive vulnerable newcomers. Yes knowledge is a wonderful valuable thing, but dangerous in the wrong hands...those hands i might add belong to you. 

Now off you scuttle back under your bridge where you belong. 

Wanders of to inflict wounding & pain on as many ragwort plants as I can find!


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## Nick Altena (15 June 2012)

touchstone said:



			Keeping prof Knottenbelt out of it, what I think *is* rude is the assumption that we are all hysterical about ragwort and ignorant about pasture management and need lecturing on it!
		
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I completely agree this one !! 
Spend time and perhaps money in education about management for horse pastures





			I think most here are fully aware that a dense sward can help suppress weeds, however allowing grass to grow to 6cm as per your recommendation would leave my laminitic pony crippled. 
Far easier to keep the grass well grazed with sheep and control weeds as they appear.   If you think this is bad management then so be it, and I agree that if I was cultivating perfect pasture it wouldn't be ideal, but it *is* ideal for my horses which is what matters.
		
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But i'm not agree this one 
Do you know what stressed grass is ?
I think...its better to put a laminitic horse only a very limited time at 6 cm grass and the rest of the day in a paddock with good quality hay.
Stressed grass is not good for laminitic animals....so i dont think (know/have learned) that it is not ideal for youre horses


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## Nick Altena (15 June 2012)

Murphy88 said:



			Ah, so now Derek Knottenbelt has made up even more of his research? He is a Professor because he is a world expert in opthalmology, dermatology, endocrinology and neonatology, amongst other things, and has done more for animal welfare (and human welfare through his charity) than virtually any other vet - in the field of veterinary medicine, we generally do things like peer-review research, so I think we can safely say that Prof K's research wouldn't have been published had it not been accurate. 

Feel free to keep trying to damage the reputation of Prof K, you will be going a long time with no success - he is a legend, who probably knows more about horses than the rest of us on this thread put together, and those of us who actually know him and have been taught by him will never believe he is anything other than a God of veterinary medicine!
		
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Some one here say something about the intelligent people on this forum.

I keep it short this time:

You have google in the UK ?
Then you can search on 

Brauchli J., J. Luthy, U. Zweifel & C. Schlatter. 1982. Pyrrolizidine alkaloids from Symphytum officinale L. and their percutaneous absorption in
rats. Experientia (Basel) 38: 1085-1087.

Maybe when you read if you read this kind of research you understand that the PA's of ragwort CAN NOT be poison when come in the body by the skin , a fact your proff. also has to know....

In short :
PA's like the one comming by ragwort are poisonous as it passes through your digestive

If the PAs of ragwort pass through your skin if you hit them or pull out, it is not comming in your digestive system.
Your proff has to know that fact as a world expert in opthalmology, dermatology, endocrinology and neonatology


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## Clava (15 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Yes, Clava, we established that earlier. I pull grown plants, not rosettes, and I don't think 20 years of pulling can really be called "luck", do you? ANother poster said that they had found the same from pulling grown plants. Clearing rosettes by pulling is obviously not a good idea, as I acknowledged earlier.


There is always weedkiller if people are having problems controlling ragwort by hand. I do my docks and thistles with a spray because those you can't pull.
		
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Sorry, I must have missed your reply.  I wasn't however, refering  to pulling rosettes as I doubt that is even possible, but digging them out - any tiny piece of root left will regrow and getting all of it is very hard as the long tap root breaks easily. not something I do now (only pull full plants) but something I was advised to do.


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## touchstone (15 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			I completely agree this one !! 
Spend time and perhaps money in education about management for horse pastures





But i'm not agree this one 
Do you know what stressed grass is ?
I think...its better to put a laminitic horse only a very limited time at 6 cm grass and the rest of the day in a paddock with good quality hay.
Stressed grass is not good for laminitic animals....so i dont think (know/have learned) that it is not ideal for youre horses
		
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Oh my word, I'm getting angry now! How condescending!!!

 I am fully aware of what stressed grass is thankyou, and prefer my horse to be able to nibble small quantities of higher fructan (aka stressed grass)  than be able to consume vast quantities of lower fructan grass over a shorter period of time - tried that once and my horse developed raised pulses and footiness, so I will stick to what has been working for the past fifteen years with mine thankyou very much.


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## cptrayes (15 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Maybe when you read if you read this kind of research you understand that the PA's of ragwort CAN NOT be poison when come in the body by the skin , a fact your proff. also has to know....
		
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SO WHAT?

Nick, you pull ragwort without gloves on if you want to. I do. But what on earth is the problem with other people pulling ragwort using gloves? It does not matter whether it is true that ragwort can poison through the skin or not and we _*don't care*_ whether it is true or not. Wearing gloves to pull it hurts nobody, and it must be pulled, as we have all agreed, because it is poisonous to horses.


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## Dolcé (15 June 2012)

Dolcé;10803703 said:
			
		


			OK, so again nothing I didn't already know BUT it clearly states that the effects on humans through skin ingestion is still being researched and are at the moment unknown!  I think huge apologies are due to Professor Knottenbelt who you have seriously bad mouthed on this thread for something that hasn't been proven as being wrong.
		
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This post was referring to this link  http://edepot.wur.nl/167548 posted by Esther as the latest research, I will repeat, this clearly states that the effects of toxins through the skin are still being researched and so far unknown!  It would seem you only take the bits that agree with your beliefs from each piece of research you quote.

In the word of another recent poster this is getting boring!  You just will not listen to any other point of view and you are patronising beyond belief.  I trust you will not go into teaching or lecturing as you are causing more harm than good to your 'campaign'.


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## Nick Altena (15 June 2012)

EstherYoung said:



			My head hurts.....

But from one Esther to another, I can confirm that we strongly suspect that our old TB who we lost last year had ragwort induced liver problems.
		
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With post like this ... i alway's ask myself questions.
This horse must have token a lot of ragwort (it takes a while before you see symptoms)
HOW is it posible that a owner of a horse or the person carrying the animal care did not know the danger of this plant when the media etc. spend so much attention to tis ?
HOW is it posible that they don't control the hay they give the horses when they do know this problem. or in the rare case the horse eats ragwort fresh control the pasture and the horse what it is eating in that pasture ?

Oke...in this case its a few years back (although almost every farmer in the past already know this plant, in Holland also called the yellow danger mentioned by older farmers )

Its not personal to you Esther, maybe you trusted someone else's knowledge...
But there are so many of this stories and i can't understand this.
Everybody growing up know and learn what he or see can eat...or not...
But a lot of people do not investigate such matters for their animals before or after they buy them....


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## cptrayes (15 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			With post like this ... i alway's ask myself questions.
This horse must have token a lot of ragwort (it takes a while before you see symptoms)
HOW is it posible that a owner of a horse or the person carrying the animal care did not know the danger of this plant when the media etc. spend so much attention to tis ?
HOW is it posible that they don't control the hay they give the horses when they do know this problem. or in the rare case the horse eats ragwort fresh control the pasture and the horse what it is eating in that pasture ?

Oke...in this case its a few years back (although almost every farmer in the past already know this plant, in Holland also called the yellow danger mentioned by older farmers )

Its not personal to you Esther, maybe you trusted someone else's knowledge...
But there are so many of this stories and i can't understand this.
Everybody growing up know and learn what he or see can eat...or not...
But a lot of people do not investigate such matters for their animals before or after they buy them....
		
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You are pretty ignorant about the effects of liver toxicity in horses, and how long it can take after ingestion and before symptoms are shown that would cause anyone to question the liver, aren't you Nick? Can I suggest you stop writing insulting posts to owners of dead horses on a subject that you do not know enough about?

In this country we buy and sell horses and have no idea what the horse has ingested in a previous home. 

Can you also please tell me the exactly amounts of green and dried ragwort a horse would have to eat to die of liver failure? How long after the ingestion would death take place? Given that it is cumulative in its effect can you also please provide  a breakdown of the amounts ingested in what frequency over what time period that could cause liver failure?

One more question. If you own horses, do you shake out every single bit of forage before you feed it to your horses? And if not, how do you know that it is ragwort free? Please don't tell me it's certificated, because certificated or not, unless you personally saw it in the field just before it was cut, and walked every inch of that field, you haven't actually got a clue whether there is any ragwort in it or not.


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## Nick Altena (15 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			SO WHAT?

Nick, you pull ragwort without gloves on if you want to. I do. But what on earth is the problem with other people pulling ragwort using gloves? It does not matter whether it is true that ragwort can poison through the skin or not and we _*don't care*_ whether it is true or not. Wearing gloves to pull it hurts nobody, and it must be pulled, as we have all agreed, because it is poisonous to horses.
		
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SO WHAT ?
DON"T CARE ?

a lot of people by that statement of poisoning by skin shots pretty panicked, perhaps for example because they knew that their child had picked a lot of this flower without gloves ?

Gloves you can certainly wear , no one that says that you should not (perhaps necessary also for their allergies)
But the reason that these proff gave is not true and caused unnecessary panic.
Just the same by the figure more than 6000 died horses in a year by this plant.... its not true and caussed panic.

course there is a danger of ragwort ... mainly in hay ... but not in size as he has brought

But as a proff. with these kinds of statements out of which he should know as a specialist that is not true .... well ... I find that quite a bit.
You apparently don't care this , okay, that's your mentality.
But why then a response from your side if you do not interesting this?

A lot of people find this kind of business a misleading point, you don't expect that from a proffessor 
And it is hoped that not all studies are done in this manner by which proffessor therefore 
Gambling and not thorough studies is not protect anyone long....


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## cptrayes (15 June 2012)

Nick I don't think anyone has been harmed by believing ragwort to be more poisonous than it is. How about you go and worry about something more important, like why pig welfare standards are so much lower in your country than ours, and why your farmers are so slow to adopt the EU welfare standards that most of our farmers have already had on board for some time?


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## EstherYoung (15 June 2012)

I don't know why I'm even biting, but for info our horse was 25yo when he died. We know that he had ingested ragwort on at least three occasions during his life, and unfortunately one of those was with us: despite pulling for hours and hours we didn't clear their new winter grazing field of ragwort quickly enough and he ate some dried dead stalks, which is what triggered the acute attack. We suspect that his liver was already damaged and the last bit he ate tipped him over the edge. As I say, he came back from the acute attack, but because his liver was damaged it meant he couldn't tolerate other medication so our options were limited when he became lame.

Ragwort creates a time bomb, and you just don't know how much tolerance an individual horse has left for it.

ps I've no idea whether ragwort can be ingested through the skin but it sure as heck is an irritant to skin so gloves are a very good idea.


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## Nick Altena (15 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You are pretty ignorant about the effects of liver toxicity in horses, and how long it can take after ingestion and before symptoms are shown that would cause anyone to question the liver, aren't you Nick? Can I suggest you stop writing insulting posts to owners of dead horses on a subject that you do not know enough about?
In this country we buy and sell horses and have no idea what the horse has ingested in a previous home.
		
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Please read better
I also have written that it was not personal !!
It's a story we still heare many time's and i don't understand how this come.
Yes... maybe se trust the onwner of a previus home... but than this question is about that person... not this Eshter ...which was then saddled with a already sick horse....




			Can you also please tell me the exactly amounts of green and dried ragwort a horse would have to eat to die of liver failure?
		
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No i can't for sure... yes i can for as far as we know...
I also have google  but I also have had a disqusion about this with a healing service in the Netherlands who post remarkeble incorrect information on the site and yes they admid later it was a wrong calculation and thus wrong information they publiced !  

Beside... the info you're asking was given before in this line and you had not ask this if you had read the given links....:

I quote a little part from Eshter's site :

Only if an animal eats relatively large amounts of PA containing plants it will show symptoms of Ragwort poisoning. Exact amounts are not known, but are estimated to be somewhere between 1 and 10% of an animal&#8217;s body weight. (14, 15, 22) For a 500 kg horse, this would come down to eating between 250 and 2500 full grown Common ragwort shoots, which are approximately 20 grams when dried.

You find the source data (14, 15 22 ) on the same site.

 How long after the ingestion would death take place? Given that it is cumulative in its effect can you also please provide  a breakdown of the amounts ingested in what frequency over what time period that could cause liver failure?

Nobody can answer this for sure because no one can certainly say so much, so long, that symptoms
Its depending from a lot of factors on animal and quality of the ragwort.

(nice try , but i'm also not that stupid....)





			One more question. If you own horses, do you shake out every single bit of forage before you feed it to your horses? And if not, how do you know that it is ragwort free? Please don't tell me it's certificated, because certificated or not, unless you personally saw it in the field just before it was cut, and walked every inch of that field, you haven't actually got a clue whether there is any ragwort in it or not.
		
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Yes i shake out and control the hay we given to our horses , 5 in total at this moment , every day just before we give it.
What i don't trust or want i pull out, verry simple.

Yes i know and control the fields where we buy the hay , bit it is impossible to be absolutely sure there is nothing in it.

There is also not enough and therefore we also must buy a part of the hay by a wholesale.
And yes its certificated hay when we buy by a wholesale , but we still shacking it out every day.
At day they are walking in the pasture....there is NO ragwort for sure , i know because i control this every week.

And believe me or not... i do have a clue what ragwort is and how it looks in different stage


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## misterjinglejay (15 June 2012)

Most HHO readers and UK horse owners know what every stage of ragwort growth looks like, from the tiniest leaf (before it even reaches rosette stage, it's a different shade of green from most pasture plants) right up to the two year old plant.

It's covered in all our horse care exams - not in a panicy horsterical way, but in a calm, 'knowledge is power' way.

When buying horses, most of us, I would imagine, try and find out about their previous management (including possible ragwort ingestion).

It is frequently written about in equine literature, and obviously mentioned on forums etc.

We all check our pastures and hay supply ( I had 30 5ft round bales sent back to source as dried ragwort was found in a couple).

None of us panic about it, we just get on with removing it, and trying to keep our horses healthy. 

Quite frankly, so what if we're overcautious, it's us doing the work. None of us are complaining too much about having to pull ragwort, we just get out there and do it (gloves or not). There's no hysteria about it, it's just another task to do.

We have a saying in this country; 'better safe than sorry' and where ragwort is concerned, I think we all agree on that. So, why don't you let us get on with our quiet, non hysterical horse care?

Right, must don all-in-one space age type suit, breathing apparatus, and obviously, high viz (just in case no one can see me) and go tackle the demon weed


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## Fellewell (15 June 2012)

According to WHW younger plants taste less bitter than mature plants and can be eaten. So I will still pull rosettes, even if I see them in other peoples fields.

I am that hysterical British person!


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## rhino (15 June 2012)

Let's try *again*

You _claim_ that Prof Knottenbelt has _categorically stated_ that he has _research_ which _proves_ that 1000 horses die per annum in the UK from Ragwort Toxicity.

*Link me to this research*. If I don't see it how can I know it ever happened?

The only source I can find for the figures is NOT research, and is clearly explained as an ESTIMATE and that figures MAY reach a certain level. This is not a _myth_; this is an _opinion_. 




			Dr Derek Knottenbelt of the Liverpool University Veterinary School estimates that around 500 horses and ponies died of liver failure due to ragwort poisoning last year. With the increasingly widespread distribution of the plant, he suggests that this year the total number of equine deaths from ragwort poisoning may reach 1000. This is possibly an underestimate of the problem because the signs are not specific and many cases of ragwort poisoning are not diagnosed.
		
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http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/ragwort1.htm

Is this the cause for your attempts to discredit him?

From Esther's website:




			The exact number of victims of Ragwort poisoning is unknown. The symptoms of Ragwort poisoning cannot be distinguished from other liver disorders and poisoning can only be confirmed by means of a post-mortem liver exam. These exams are, however, not common practice, and reliable data on the number of victims are therefore not available. There could be more than hundreds of victims, but there could also be much fewer.
		
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So Professor Knottenbelt's _estimate_ of 500 could quite easily be correct?

Next point

You _claim_ that the BHS produced a _scientific study_ with erroneous extrapolation of results. *Link me to this study, and also the ASA adjudication you repeatedly discuss.* If I don't see it how can I know it ever happened? Who carried out the study? *Was Professor Knottenbelt even involved or are you trying to implicate him in something he has no involvement with?*

From Esther's website:




			The only scientifically sound conclusion from this is that in 2002 283 horses presumably died of Ragwort poisoning. It is not known in how many of these cases a post mortem is performed.
		
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283 possible cases recorded by 4% of all the vets in the UK? Is it honestly conceivable that 4% of vets saw EACH and EVERY case of liver disease?

We will *never* know the true figures for ragwort toxicity. Heck, we don't even know how many horses there are in the UK! Estimates are all that anyone can do. Deliberate underestimations are _not helpful_ and can be _harmful_. *Do you honestly believe that the 13 or so horse deaths each year in the UK who are directly linked to Ragwort toxicity on pathology are the ONLY deaths in the UK caused by Ragwort?*

Third point

The assertion that the toxic chemicals can be absorbed through the skin.

By Pieter Pelser




			Report on the Internet by Dr. Knottenbelt (Liverpool University). This veterinarian is quoted on the internet quite a lot, because he stated, during a debate in the House of Commons, that the toxic substance in ragwort can almost certainly be absorbed through the skin. In response to this we contacted Dr. Knottenbelt. Through an email he informed us that there is no scientific proof for his statements. He writes that he himself has suffered liver damage after manually removing ragwort plants. The results of this 'experiment' have not been published and, according to us, are not obtained through a good scientific trial.

Through our research about the sources of the reports on the danger of touching ragwort, we conclude that there is no substantial evidence that there is a health risk for people. *The amount of pyrrolizidine alkaloids that might be absorbed through the skin* is very low and *there is no proof* that these alkaloids are being changed into a toxic form
		
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(Bold added for emphasis)

Lack of proof means something is unproven, not disproven. Nothing more.

*Link me to this research*. A transcript of his presentation in Parliament would be acceptable. If I don't see it how can I know it ever happened? 

As far as I am aware he never claimed that he had carried out an 'experiment' by handling Ragwort, and to me the above is clearly an _anecdote_, which in itself has no scientific value but can be a useful stimulus to carry out real research. My understanding is that he became unwell after handling the plant, and liver function tests revealed liver damage. Of course he will not publish this, as he realises that anecdotes are NOT data.

Final point

On your previous reply to me you seem to suggest that Professor Knottenbelt has _personally_ been involved in research on _rats_?  Is this correct and can you link me to it please. If I don't see it how can I know it ever happened? 

I _think_ you were referring to this study by the 'rats' comment.
Brauchli J., J. Luthy, U. Zweifel & C. Schlatter. 1982. Pyrrolizidine alkaloids from Symphytum officinale L. and their percutaneous absorption in rats. Experientia (Basel) 38: 1085-1087.
Am I correct? Why did you claim that Professor Knottenbelt was directly involved? 



rhino said:



			What way did he 'prove' they could be passed through skin? *Prove*, not _suggest_, as we like facts here, not hearsay, don't we?
		
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Nick Altena said:



			he shaved a rat and used a bearing ointment that is absorbed through the skin
		
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*Or does this research have nothing to do with Professor Knottenbelt directly and in fact was another attempt to obfuscate the discussion and tar the reputation of an eminent scientist?*


You are repeatedly making claims, which you are either UNABLE or UNWILLING to show any proof for. Sorry, but for me your arguments are fundamentally flawed and entirely based on deliberate misunderstandings and reliance on hearsay. 

Your problems with Professor Knottenbelt seem to stem directly from (a) an _estimate_ of between 500 and 100 horse deaths per annum in the UK due to Ragwort toxicity, and (b) a personal anecdote of an occasion of him handling Ragwort and a subsequent liver function test.

*Neither of which you can disprove in any way*.


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## Nick Altena (15 June 2012)

misterjay said:



			Quite frankly, so what if we're overcautious, it's us doing the work. None of us are complaining too much about having to pull ragwort, we just get out there and do it (gloves or not). There's no hysteria about it, it's just another task to do.

We have a saying in this country; 'better safe than sorry' and where ragwort is concerned, I think we all agree on that. So, why don't you let us get on with our quiet, non hysterical horse care?
		
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I agree with that.
Better safe than sorry is also a saying here 
But the way I think is also.... it is even better to know the real facts about something ,  than some myths ..... so in this case you can handle the ragwort before it is comming 




			Right, must don all-in-one space age type suit, breathing apparatus, and obviously, high viz (just in case no one can see me) and go tackle the demon weed 

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if you are this person I do not recognize you;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KydEWe6gXs

This is just one example of how the danger of ragwort is going to the world....


Beside...
Take a look on this pasture... that's perfect for ragwort.
I don't understand that people put horses in there, unless it's sick or something...


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## rhino (15 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Beside...
Take a look on this pasture... that's perfect for ragwort.
I don't understand that people put horses in there, unless it's sick or something...
		
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Because we don't have a choice? In my time in the Netherlands I have never strayed far out of Amsterdam, and generally have been in hospital doing training sessions (although I did spark a scare when I was about 5 as I somehow came down with Scarlet Fever on holiday there and the doctor's hadn't seen it before ) so I don't know how 'rural' you are, or what land prices are.

The 'average' horse owner in the UK keeps horses on rented land, at livery or in what land they can buy 'at home'. Perfect pasture is (a) very rare, and (b) prohibitively expensive. We make do with what we can.

No-one has ever said it is ideal, but the only other option is, well, NOT owning horses at all.

So, say you have just bought 5 acres of land teeming with Ragwort, and your eventual aim is to use it for grazing your horses. What steps would you take to remove the Ragwort? *That* would be helpful, the rest of the information posted so far is not..


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## brighteyes (15 June 2012)

*Nick Altena*

It's not the strength of your English - that is admirable, it's the weakness of your claims and arguments which is proving tedious.


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## fatpiggy (15 June 2012)

"As far as I am aware he never claimed that he had carried out an 'experiment' by handling Ragwort, and to me the above is clearly an anecdote, which in itself has no scientific value but can be a useful stimulus to carry out real research. My understanding is that he became unwell after handling the plant, and liver function tests revealed liver damage. Of course he will not publish this, as he realises that anecdotes are NOT data."


Um, he did publish it actually. I can remember seeing it in a monthly horse magazine article about ragwort (Your Horse is the most likely) some years ago. Paraphrasing it, he said he spent a period of time pulling up ragwort without wearing gloves and noticed some odd symptoms in himself a short while after which he thought MIGHT have been from the toxins entering his body through his skin.  He therefore warned people to wear gloves, as precaution.   Not a formal published paper, but in print and in the public domain.

As for how many horses die of ragwort poisoning per year , it is a case of how long is a piece of string.  Do you really think that the traveller community which is renowned for keeping horses in the most deplorable, litter strewn, overgrazed and weed-infested waste ground are going to ask the vet if they thought it was ragwort poisoning when their animals collapse and die?  The vet won't even know about it!  The best anyone can do is extrapolate from known cases.


You might as well compare with the risks of not worming your horse.  Many horses exposed to a worm burden won't die of it, but some will and horribly so.  Horses have parasitic worms in the wild after all.  Does that make it wrong to try to prevent problems in the domestic horse?


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## rhino (15 June 2012)

fatpiggy said:



			"As far as I am aware he never claimed that he had carried out an 'experiment' by handling Ragwort, and to me the above is clearly an anecdote, which in itself has no scientific value but can be a useful stimulus to carry out real research. My understanding is that he became unwell after handling the plant, and liver function tests revealed liver damage. Of course he will not publish this, as he realises that anecdotes are NOT data."


Um, he did publish it actually. I can remember seeing it in a monthly horse magazine article about ragwort (Your Horse is the most likely) some years ago. Paraphrasing it, he said he spent a period of time pulling up ragwort without wearing gloves and noticed some odd symptoms in himself a short while after which he thought MIGHT have been from the toxins entering his body through his skin.  He therefore warned people to wear gloves, as precaution.   Not a formal published paper, but in print and in the public domain.
		
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Thank you, I was hoping that Nick and Esther would point me in the direction of their source of information, but they seem somewhat reluctant 

Even professors are allowed opinions. 'May' 'Might' 'Possibly' are all nice opinion words, but are scientifically meaningless. Has he ever claimed to have proof for transfer of toxic chemicals from Ragwort through skin? If not then I personally don't see the problem, it comes across as something that would merit further study though, as even Nick and Esther are unable to disprove it.

In the absence of proof either way, I don't see his advice to wear gloves as scaremongering, I would want to know that something was NOT dangerous before I would be happy to handle it 

Repeatedly Nick and Esther have been discussing _scientific study_ and my focus was on published scientific studies, sorry if I did not make that clear  I must admit, I do tend to lump the horsey comics in with the Daily Mail in terms of accuracy of reporting


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## touchstone (15 June 2012)

Regarding the 'ragwort video', I've never taken such measures when pulling ragwort and I don't know anyone who does.

When spraying toxic herbicides as shown in the video it may well be a recommendation to wear protective clothing.

I'd rather err on the side of caution where ragwort is concerned, not through hysteria or inaccuracies, but because I value my horse and would rather not take the risk, whether exaggerated or not.

Pregnant women were once told that an anti sickness drug called thalidamide was safe to take, and look how that turned out.


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## Queenbee (15 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			exactly what part do you not understand and find dangerous statement ?



Yes, someone mentioned that earlier, and that just amazes me even more that no eyes have opened here on the statements of the man that I should not call...

When so intelligent as you say...I think as perhaps less intelligent person...
They then must know from the beginning that it is nonses this PA is comming to you're hands and then distroy you're liver....

There is a lot more wrong in the information you get in England... but by this one i expect you .... as an intelligent person ... had to ask your self questions about this persons " proven fact" how the hell he prove that?

You also know as a intelligent person with intrest in the subject...there is still NO methode to prove that only the ragwort has causes the liver damage , unless you give youre horse a overdose and/or only ragwort

You also has to know as such a intelligent person that there have been no 6000 dead horses specifically for this study (looking at the cost)



I did not notice that in most of the reactions...
The most reactions from al those intelligent people here i notice is about the poor english and the announcment to go away.. is that intelligent ?
Is that the way the intelligent writers here teach people  in what they think is wrong ?


Again...were exactly is the dangerous part we wrote , qoute it for us so whe understand 



Yehhh...that's a verry intelligent answer !! ... oeps sorry... advice....
May i ask ? how old are you exactly ?
		
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There is an age old saying in England 'better to err on the side of caution'  I would far rather exaggerate the dangers, respond with over cation and over reaction, and stand a greater chance of my horse surviving unaffected. I simply would not run the risk of putting a horse in a field without dealing with ragwort, by pulling it up.  I am incredibly lucky in that the haylage that I have comes from fields that I see on a daily basis, and has no ragwort in them, but this is not possible for most horse owners here, my partner is a farmer and a haylage supplier.

With regards to 'leaching into skin' I personally don't care whether that is fact or myth, the plant IS toxic, and I find gloves easier to use when pulling up ragwort than bare hands, I then burn the godawful stuff... catterpillars and all 

No scientific or non scientific study is 100% conclusive, surely you should know that?!  Thats why when writing conclusions reseachers use words like 'probability'  Therefore you can not state anything as a 'fact' as a result of your studies, you can say that there is a strong probability that you are right, and that is merely your claim.  I must have missed your credentials somewhere, all the scientific research that you have carried out, the degrees that you hold and the universities that you are affiliated with... tell me, did you ever get a journal willing to publish your findings?  The plant IS however toxic, the horse IS NOT a sheep and the norses liver IS NOT able to deal with the toxin.

To advise people to fertilise their grazing, have an over abundance of lush grass and leave the plants in the field IS DANGEROUS, If this approach were to be adopted here, you would be dealing with a significant increase in laminitis and related conditions, I for one would not trust my absolutely stupid young horse to not try to eat ragwort no matter how dire it tasted... he is a moron, you would also have a number of individuals trying to save money from cutting their own hay, with the ragwort left in, as you know, it is hard to pull up all the plants especially when the field is knee high in grass, you will miss some and they will get into the hay, be dried and be far more toxic and dangerous.

With regards to the figure of 6000 horses, if you have an overall population of  1000 horses,  during the year 100 horses die, as part of your research you conduct a post mortem on 10 of the horses that died that year, 1 of them has liver damage attributed to ragwort poisoning, then you can draw the conclusion that there is a significant probability that 10% of all the horse fatalities that year were as a result of ragwort poisoning, thus you would state that on average 10 horse deaths a year are a result of this sodding weed.  Its a very simplified example and there are many variations of this approach, but it is a valid and recognised approach in such studies.

I would far rather over react to this plant than lead a laid back 'alternative' approach and trust the safety of my horses to a bunch of bugs, whilst risking laminitis.

At the end of the day, I am perfectly happy with my approach, I have no ragwort where I am, but I would adopt the age old time honoured tradition of over reaction.  I have heard what you have to say, I have processed it, considered it, and filed it in a draw for my amusement value.  You continue with your crusade, but I suspect you will just find everyone on this forum ignorant, narrow minded, block heads who refuse to see the light


I am 31...  and 9 1/2 months


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## lazybee (15 June 2012)

I posted this earlier but it got a bit buried with all arguing.

All bull aside though there is a lot a scaremongering about Ragwort like this little Gem that's often repeated:

A horse can get ragwort poisoning without actually having any plants in their paddock! Seeds/spores from plants in neighboring fields can blow over and contaminate a paddock apparently free from plants. A horse can eat or inhale these - and cumulative poisoning can begin.  





lazybee said:



			I have to say one thing about Ragwort. When I moved to France I was told by quite a few people Ragwort doesn't grow in France, so when I found it growing in my fields I thought I'd take some to our Vets (the biggest in the area) for confirmation. At the vet we consulted the official French guide to toxic plants and confirmed it was Senecio jacobaea; which states '*a horse will have to eat between 5 and 25% of body weight to cause damage or death'*. Ragwort is only designated as medium risk; with many more plants higher up the scale. I can't believe there's so much difference in the the stance between two countries.

I still pull it when I see though and as I cut my own hay, I make sure there's none in my bales. Old habits die hard.
		
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## Queenbee (15 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			I tink Esther is giveing you a lot answers on youre questions tomorrow.
But i have a few for you reading this post.



Do you know HOW he get his numbers ?


Agian... do you know how he get his numbers ?



Nobody say its not posible.... but not in the way HE did it prove that its passed tough the skin (but that's maybe incorrectly described by me because the languageproblem)
But on the other site...
Do you know HOW the PA's work in the body ?



Correct...
I hope you also have see that same kind of info about a personal attack on members on this site ? 

To the point:
I don't write thing's that I am not sure of .... there is evidence
It's mentioned before... mail the person just like we did....and ask him your self.
(we say this because it is also not allowed to place (parts of) privat mail on the internet, but you know that also of course ) 

Its also not a personal vendatta , somebody is trying to tell you and the other people here about the things that do not fit because it was based on wrong research... and yes ... in thase case.....the man who did that wrong research this Proff
He also did good research, we know !! but not tis one.
But this is one you and many other people believe also... because its comming from... ?



Qoute me were one of us say you must stop doing this...
		
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PMSL... Nick my dear, those are not answers to rhinos questions, they are *questions*

examples (what you have done)
Rhino: what is your name?
Nick: what is your name?

(what you should have done... answer)
Rhino: What is your name?
Nick:   Nick.

You could follow this with an optional question for example 'My name is Nick.  What is your name?'  but that is not necessary


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## fatpiggy (15 June 2012)

I always wear gloves when ragwort pulling - they give you better grip and protection against blisters, plus the sap stinks and the smell is resistant to soap and water.  As good a reason as any I would say.


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## Queenbee (15 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			But i'm not agree this one 
Do you know what stressed grass is ?
I think...its better to put a laminitic horse only a very limited time at 6 cm grass and the rest of the day in a paddock with good quality hay.
Stressed grass is not good for laminitic animals....so i dont think (know/have learned) that it is not ideal for youre horses
		
Click to expand...


A horse that is put into a starvation paddock even with hay, which should not be good quality, it should be soaked to get the goodness out of it in laminitics, will gorge on the 6cm grass, eating as much in an hour as it does in a longer period, if left in the field, it will continuously graze, but with limited time it will panic eat, stuffing its face.  people here know about stressed grass, that is why they turn their laminitic ponies/horses out at night when the sugar content is lower. No one in their right mind, would use the approach you have described.


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## misterjinglejay (15 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			if you are this person I do not recognize you;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KydEWe6gXs

This is just one example of how the danger of ragwort is going to the world....
		
Click to expand...

I think this video is being ironic, as was I; Okay, ragwort is a problem, but I don't know anyone who goes to these lengths, including myself!


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## Queenbee (15 June 2012)

Anyone for a game of word association?

I'll start:


Ragwort


----------



## HappyHooves (15 June 2012)

Queenbee said:



			Anyone for a game of word association?

I'll start:


Ragwort

Click to expand...

How about needless hysteria?  or is that counted as 2 words?  Mind you either needless or hysteria are pertinant to this aren't they?!


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## Dolcé (15 June 2012)

Queenbee said:



			Anyone for a game of word association?

I'll start:


Ragwort

Click to expand...

Fanatic!


----------



## hairycob (15 June 2012)

New theory to consider - maybe our dutch friends have developed a new treatment for laminitis & are trying to maximise the market!
What will I do - carry on pulling ragwort the minute I see it in their paddock & keep on feeding them short grass along with plenty of work to keep the weight down. And quite frankly I don't see why it is anybody elses business if I chose to spend my time doing that as long as my horses are the right weight & not suffering. 
I have had a horse die of suspected ragwort poisoning. We had only had him on loan for a few weeks & in my equine specialist Vet's opinion a mild infection was enough to push his body over the edge. I never, ever want to see a horse drop from a condition score 3 to a 1 in less than a week & so I will continue to obliterate ragwort whenever I see it in their field. I also don't want to see my very good doer cobs get laminitis, so lush sward is a no no. My "hysteria" is based on personal experience & the needs of the type of horses I own & absolutely nothing to do with Prof K at all. Even if you managed to prove that he was an evil shape changing alien planning to take over the earth in league with the daleks, I would still manage the ragwort I find in my horses field in the same way.


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## Queenbee (15 June 2012)

Dolcé;10805524 said:
			
		


			Fanatic!
		
Click to expand...

catterpillars!


----------



## Dolcé (15 June 2012)

Queenbee said:



			catterpillars!
		
Click to expand...

squashed!


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## SaharaS (15 June 2012)

Guys...stop...enough!! I know what to do! 

I've had enough of all this..so am off to go & find some ragwort & make it feel loved and talk nicely to it..clearly we are missing the big point ..and are not treating it  as we would like to be treated which is why it HAS to resort to poisoning our animals...so surely if we are nice to it then it will feel happy & spread nothing but love...I hear they come out easier roots & all if you tickle their tummies then they just jump out of the ground!

look out for the new heart shaped flower heads that blow kisses at you!
Peace,love & liver transplants
much love 

Dr Who


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## Queenbee (15 June 2012)

Dolcé;10805551 said:
			
		


			squashed!
		
Click to expand...

dead


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## MerrySherryRider (15 June 2012)

Queenbee said:



			Anyone for a game of word association?

I'll start:


Ragwort

Click to expand...

Bonfire party.


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## Dolcé (15 June 2012)

horserider said:



			Bonfire party.
		
Click to expand...

Burn


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## Queenbee (15 June 2012)

*RAGWORT*


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## Fellewell (15 June 2012)

Coffee shops


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## Dolcé (15 June 2012)

Queenbee said:



*RAGWORT*

Click to expand...

Oh dear, we appear to have come full circle, a bit like this thread has several times over!  Shall we play again!!!


----------



## Queenbee (15 June 2012)

Yellow...


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## Dolcé (15 June 2012)

Queenbee said:



			Yellow...
		
Click to expand...

smelly


----------



## cptrayes (15 June 2012)

Christmas


----------



## Dab (15 June 2012)

farts


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## Dolcé (15 June 2012)

Dab said:



			farts 

Click to expand...

wind


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## LittleWildOne (15 June 2012)

Hot Air  (as in FULL OF HOT AIR )


----------



## Dolcé (15 June 2012)

LittleWildOne said:



			Hot Air  (as in FULL OF HOT AIR )
		
Click to expand...

Summer


----------



## Dab (15 June 2012)

Dolcé;10806380 said:
			
		


			Summer
		
Click to expand...

WHERE?.....(did i miss it?)


----------



## Dolcé (15 June 2012)

Dab said:



			WHERE?.....(did i miss it?)
		
Click to expand...

Yep - gone!


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## Dab (15 June 2012)

Dolcé;10806500 said:
			
		


			Yep - gone!
		
Click to expand...

Pulled ragwort!!!!


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## Queenbee (15 June 2012)

extinct moths


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## Alec Swan (15 June 2012)

Caterpillars wearing black and orange buzbies. 

Alec.


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## Dab (15 June 2012)

post office telecommunication....(one for the older folk)


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## Alec Swan (15 June 2012)

Dab said:



			post office telecommunication....(one for the older folk) 

Click to expand...

OI!! 

Alec.


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## Dab (15 June 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			OI!! 

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

my bad


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## Nick Altena (16 June 2012)

rhino said:



			Let's try *again*

You _claim_ that Prof Knottenbelt has _categorically stated_ that he has _research_ which _proves_ that 1000 horses die per annum in the UK from Ragwort Toxicity.
		
Click to expand...

Now... i did not say thát figure of 1000, I am sure because i know he claimt much more than 1000 (but the fiure he claimt exchanged by different asking person ... 

He said or wrote (i'm not sure at this moment) for example the following to the Yorkshire Post last !! year , literally a piece of quote:

"In my own practice, more than 10 per year out of a hospital population of 2,500, there are approximately one million horses in the UK -. The maths is easy."

Attention... he said this LAST year.... again !!... en yes... several people have ask him how he get this figures years ago !! and then, years ago... he admit it was not a correct figure ???
Why repeating them again years later ??
What is the reason of this ? dos he need or getting something for this misleading ? is my thouth when i see things like this (and let me tell you.. thats not only by this proffessor before you think so)  

Back to what he claimt:

Yeh, ... we can also count, but something like this you can not say to a newspaper , not as a Proffessor without proper substantiated evidence.
Everyone can count ... but that makes the outcome like this one not a truth ! 

When I calculate...this time it come's around 4000 each year....(by this claim by this newspaper! )

But you know , I know and i think also this proff. know how newspapers react on words and figures like this one from a famous Proffessor....

They do everything to sell a paper more...so lets push up that fgure till aurond 5000.
That is posible...because its also aruond 1 miljon horses... a bit more...or les... what is the differens, it sell more by bigger figures...

Then the concurent newspaper want also sell papers... it hear somthing from sombody who has read the Yorkshire post and is speaking around 5000 till 6000 dead horses with big letters...and the famous name from a proffessor who give info about this subject...

Than it comes on internet, some people take it over and before you know... everybody that have a horse is afraid for this ragwort 
Is this number inportant  ?
YES it is... you see later...

Looking at the Freedom of Information law...a question was ask
They say in Liverpool University that they have only 18 horses with liverproblems in 5 years .... but those 18 they where not specifik ragwort problems.

Then the other thing were some people her have no trubble with that he claimd:

Because you don't like our forum from the Netherlands... maybe you like this one , it give you info about the poisoning by skin (and a lot more info about ragwort to) :


http://www.ragwortfacts.com/ragwort-humans.html

My last note for now

When sombody come with a claim that scare's a lot of people and have a BIG impact on the horseworld like the claims from Proff. Knottenbelt... and YES that did and still is scaring people an still have a BIG impact !! .... than you have to come with BIG and solid evidence 
No matter what your name is, but if your name begin with Proffessor...then that's for sure

End to end this note...
An estimate comming from a famous person like a proffessor Knottebelt who also did very good things.... gives BIG problems...
Not by other proffessors perhaps ... but by the normal people and newspapers it do... everyone (and not only in the UK) says then that it is the truth ...becourse a famous proffessor told so....
Look around on the internet , preferably in several languages , and you must see this fact also...


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## Dolcé (16 June 2012)

Dab said:



			post office telecommunication....(one for the older folk) 

Click to expand...

eradicated!!!


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## cptrayes (16 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb
		
Click to expand...




			
				Dolcé;10807555 said:
			
		


			eradicated!!!
		
Click to expand...


Exterminate! Exterminate!

(with  a sink plunger )


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## Nick Altena (16 June 2012)

rhino said:



			Because we don't have a choice?
		
Click to expand...

You always have a choice

This is one of them...




			No-one has ever said it is ideal, but the only other option is, well, NOT owning horses at all.
		
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In the Netherlands we say... when you don't have a pool.... you can't keep fish 

When i see the problems of ragwort in the UK and then see how the horses be kept....




			So, say you have just bought 5 acres of land teeming with Ragwort, and your eventual aim is to use it for grazing your horses. What steps would you take to remove the Ragwort? *That* would be helpful, the rest of the information posted so far is not..
		
Click to expand...

First off all i dont want to buy that land, but with no other choise ?
spray or put manure on it til its death , removal of the top layer or transfer enough seedless ground so the residual seeds can't growe and sow grass for your horse...

But before i have good land.... i don't want to have a horse...
if you buy an animal that depends on you ... than you must provide what it needs before it comes
That's MY way of thinking....


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## EAST KENT (16 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			who burns his buttocks has to sit on the blisters
		
Click to expand...

Oh for a "Like" button!


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## Nick Altena (16 June 2012)

fatpiggy said:



			I always wear gloves when ragwort pulling - they give you better grip and protection against blisters, plus the sap stinks and the smell is resistant to soap and water.  As good a reason as any I would say.
		
Click to expand...

i agree, you can wear them for this reasons and and if you have allergic to ragwort.
But then you have to wear it for much more plants with the same PA's (around 6000 different species)

The only point I wanted to make is you do not need to wear gloves by pulling ragwort because it is toxic through your skin, because that's an myth


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## EAST KENT (16 June 2012)

touchstone said:



			I'm another that hasn't had ragwort regrow after pulling, even at the rosette stage. I do use a trowel/weeder to dig out the rosettes and it seems to work fine 

Click to expand...

I cannot see how a root cutting from a juvenile plant can be successful whereas one from a mature plant is not.A root cutting is a root cutting.


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## EAST KENT (16 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Exterminate! Exterminate!

(with  a sink plunger )
		
Click to expand...

 Save the caterpiller!


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## Nick Altena (16 June 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			I cannot see how a root cutting from a juvenile plant can be successful whereas one from a mature plant is not.A root cutting is a root cutting.

Click to expand...


protrude from rosettes is better because it's not as deeply rooted
But you still must be dig wide and deep enough

It's (in my opinion) just stupid to wait 2 years to bloom because then he is much more deeply rooted so greater risk of root residue remain when pulling out with hand or "special" ragfork.(the effect is the same with use of a ragfork, whe test that)

also ... if people here believe that all horses eat the plant then why wait until flowering?
  Especially when you see the fields as in that video which normally appears to be under present here because there's nothing better


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## Fellewell (16 June 2012)

Back on the weed again


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## Fellewell (16 June 2012)

```
In the Netherlands we say... when you don't have a pool.... you can't keep fish
```
We keep our fish in a freezer


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## touchstone (16 June 2012)

Fellewell said:



			Back on the weed again

Click to expand...

Ithink someone's been on it


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## Festive_Felicitations (16 June 2012)

This has to be one of the most bizzare thread I have read!

Once again Alec provided one of the most rational responses on the thread:



Alec Swan said:



			As you so rightly say,  time to dispel a few myths!  

Ragwort; 
is poisonous in what ever form.  
It is unpalatable when green,  and is generally only ingested at times of starvation.  Horses can,  when hard pressed,  develop a liking for it.
Different animals have different tolerance levels.  Sheep are high,  and horses are low.
For Ragwort to work efficiently and for it to kill a horse,  there needs to be a substantial intake,  and over an extended period.

There are several ways of ridding land of Ragwort,  so we're told,  but only two actually work;
The most efficient way is to have a grazing regime,  involving sheep.  They seem to like the weed and it doesn't like them!
Ragwort is a bi-annual.  The rosettes which grow this year will become plants next year.
Spraying works,  but the timing is vital,  and so are the chemicals used.  MCPA and Agent 24 D with a decent glueing agent,  Rhino for instance,  are the best method,  and they need to be applied annually,  until the plants have gone.
There is a very real danger with spraying,  and horses.  When the plant starts to die,  the stage when it's turning yellow,  it puts up heavy sugar deposits in an effort to save itself,  and becomes very attractive to equines.  The plant needs to be thoroughly dead and rotted before horses are turned out.
Pulling Ragwort is a waist of time,  in that if the plants are large and strong enough,  the root segments left behind,  will themselves,  turn into plants.

The liver is a curious organ,  in that when half of it is removed,  for the purpose of donation,  for instance,  it recovers within about 6 weeks.  When the liver becomes diseased,  Ragwort,  Liver Fluke,  or booze in humans,  it takes many years to recover,  if at all.

The other major influence over the prolificacy of Ragwort,  is that the plant loves arid or very close cropped ground,  exactly the type of ground on which horses are generally kept.  It doesn't like competing with a dense grass sward,  which is rarely offered to horses.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

-----------

OP I have read the whole thread, all links you have provided and a fair wack of the references referred to and I'm afraid I can't see your point in starting this thread.

I tried to be open minded but your posts here and links do suggest a vendetta against Prof Knottenbelt. 
He made some claims based on limited data and carefully used 'estimate' and 'aproximate' before all of them as far as I can find. In scientific parlance(language) these clearly indicate a belief of the researcher but are unsubstantiated. If he was professing them as fact I would expect to see the word 'significant' in the sentence. Significant suggesting the statistical result of a trial or examination of data.
He would by no means be the first person to make cautios estimates based on limited data, scientist in all fields do it daily and it is one way of promoting further research.
It by no means creates grounds on which to publically and broadly attemt to discredit their research.

The main consencus from the references you, and others, posted is that plants of the genus _Senacio_ (Ragwort, Fireweed etc) are toxic to most stock. They are hard to eradicate and prevention is better than cure, _*where possible*_. The main form of prevention being removal or 'cure' from areas where it does grow. And different stratergies will work better in different areas.
None of which contradicts current understaning either here or in the UK.

There is no hard evidence to say that Ragwort does or does not casue liver damage or other health problems through skin contact. So people adopt the precautionary principal and choose to use gloves when handling the plant.
Untill someone did the reseach the broad environmental concequences of the use of DDT were 'suspected' and 'estimated'.

------------

On sheep and ragwort - Merinos and Merino x Dorper will graze ragwort (or the local species Fireweed (_Senacio madagascencis_)) when it is green and a have the some of the high capacity (among sheep) to deal with the toxins, and in some parts are a suggested control measure. However it is also recommended that they not be grazed on infested pastures for more than 3 years as the likelihood of the suffering serious liver damage increases.

Oh one control method not regularly mentioned is 'a 10 year drought'  ...ok ok so nothing else grows but a least you dont have any Ragwort


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## Meowy Catkin (16 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			You always have a choice

This is one of them...




			No-one has ever said it is ideal, but the only other option is, well, NOT owning horses at all.
		
Click to expand...

In the Netherlands we say... when you don't have a pool.... you can't keep fish
		
Click to expand...

So instead of digging up the very few ragwort plants that I have, I should shoot the horses?


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## cptrayes (16 June 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			I cannot see how a root cutting from a juvenile plant can be successful whereas one from a mature plant is not.A root cutting is a root cutting.

Click to expand...

I suspect it is true of weeds as well as grass that the first growth is much more vigorous than older growth, which is why farmers reseed their forage crops on a 3 or 5 year rotation. It strikes me that a root from an immature plants will therefore be far more likely to take than one from a mature plant, as it is likely to contain far more plant growth hormones.


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## Dolcé (16 June 2012)

Festive_Felicitations said:



			This has to be one of the most bizzare thread I have read!

Once again Alec provided one of the most rational responses on the thread:



-----------

OP I have read the whole thread, all links you have provided and a fair wack of the references referred to and I'm afraid I can't see your point in starting this thread.

I tried to be open minded but your posts here and links do suggest a vendetta against Prof Knottenbelt. 
He made some claims based on limited data and carefully used 'estimate' and 'aproximate' before all of them as far as I can find. In scientific parlance(language) these clearly indicate a belief of the researcher but are unsubstantiated. If he was professing them as fact I would expect to see the word 'significant' in the sentence. Significant suggesting the statistical result of a trial or examination of data.
He would by no means be the first person to make cautios estimates based on limited data, scientist in all fields do it daily and it is one way of promoting further research.
It by no means creates grounds on which to publically and broadly attemt to discredit their research.

The main consencus from the references you, and others, posted is that plants of the genus _Senacio_ (Ragwort, Fireweed etc) are toxic to most stock. They are hard to eradicate and prevention is better than cure, _*where possible*_. The main form of prevention being removal or 'cure' from areas where it does grow. And different stratergies will work better in different areas.
None of which contradicts current understaning either here or in the UK.

There is no hard evidence to say that Ragwort does or does not casue liver damage or other health problems through skin contact. So people adopt the precautionary principal and choose to use gloves when handling the plant.
Untill someone did the reseach the broad environmental concequences of the use of DDT were 'suspected' and 'estimated'.

------------

On sheep and ragwort - Merinos and Merino x Dorper will graze ragwort (or the local species Fireweed (_Senacio madagascencis_)) when it is green and a have the some of the high capacity (among sheep) to deal with the toxins, and in some parts are a suggested control measure. However it is also recommended that they not be grazed on infested pastures for more than 3 years as the likelihood of the suffering serious liver damage increases.

Oh one control method not regularly mentioned is 'a 10 year drought'  ...ok ok so nothing else grows but a least you dont have any Ragwort 

Click to expand...

Be careful, they will be targetting Oz next and filling up your forums with this fanatical claptrap!


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## rhino (16 June 2012)

*wanders in to see if ANY questions have been answered and ANY evidence provided for the claims*


Apparently not

Oh, wait, yes I shouldn't keep horses, even though I have never had a problem with ensuring they don't have access to ragwort as I am able to deal with it effectively.

*wanders back out, finding it slightly sad that a thread which purported to be about FACTS has failed to provide anything that anyone didn't already know, but instead made some very spurious claims which cannot be backed up*


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## MerrySherryRider (16 June 2012)

Seems anyone can get a web page and be an expert on the internet these days.

   Fact, truth and knowledge not necessary. Someone will believe you if you keep shouting long and hard enough.


----------



## Fellewell (16 June 2012)

touchstone said:



			Ithink someone's been on it 

Click to expand...

Yep, it's perfectly legal to 'expand your mind' over there, but not, it seems, your vocabulary.

Nobody talks in a high-pitched voice in our local Starbucks, that's for sure.

Wonder if I could download that clip from Blazing Saddles?


----------



## EstherHegt (16 June 2012)

It is doubly also, they claim horses eat fresh, but then wait until , into season two before it is removed, though it is no risk?
poisounous is in all the parts of the plants,  that apparently escapes the folks!

I see myself not twenty years pulling trailers full of ragwort, I would be there again for probably blonde. O so completely naturalized apparently just your horse in a pasture containing ragwort to let go and then when they only shoot something in bloom, seems so much more sense to first create a safe pasture and then a horse in it, you cant put a goldfish  in a dry bowl and put water in when you have time.

Now thought that the horse to the English truth their liver already destroy through to walk in and to sniff or very serious in to roll, dangerous stuff, but oh, two years later once the hands sleeves and masks and just draw. why ignorant!


----------



## cptrayes (16 June 2012)

Esther have you been on the advocaat?


----------



## Meowy Catkin (16 June 2012)

Absinthe maybe?


----------



## EstherHegt (16 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Esther have you been on the advocaat?
		
Click to expand...

No I don't eat lawyers ;-) 
Advocaat is a drink here ( made from eggs)  but also laywer.

But I am very busy now, with the stallions and education about ragwort, and I won't waste my time anymore at a children's classroom who believes and repeat what they are told for years by press. Good luck with your pasture and your horses. 

Maybe it is still interesting we have , and now it is European law: ragwort free hay! Use that info. Go to a lawyer when you have ragwort in hay. Then you can go to an advocaat!


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## Dolcé (16 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			It is doubly also, they claim horses eat fresh, but then wait until , into season two before it is removed, though it is no risk?
poisounous is in all the parts of the plants,  that apparently escapes the folks!

I see myself not twenty years pulling trailers full of ragwort, I would be there again for probably blonde. O so completely naturalized apparently just your horse in a pasture containing ragwort to let go and then when they only shoot something in bloom, seems so much more sense to first create a safe pasture and then a horse in it, you cant put a goldfish  in a dry bowl and put water in when you have time.

Now thought that the horse to the English truth their liver already destroy through to walk in and to sniff or very serious in to roll, dangerous stuff, but oh, two years later once the hands sleeves and masks and just draw. why ignorant!
		
Click to expand...


I   will    write   this   slowly   !  We    do   not   put   our   horses   in   fields   with   ragwort  ,   we    kill   the   ragwort   first   by   whatever   means   we   prefer    .    Stop   twisting    the    words   of    posters   ,    we   are   not    interested    in   your    opinions    because     we    know    what   we    are   doing    .


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## Dolcé (16 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Thank goodness for that, please take your mate with you!

F_F, she is on her way to an OZ forum and it is all your fault for admitting you have ragwort over there!!!
		
Click to expand...


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## cptrayes (16 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			No I don't eat lawyers ;-) 
Advocaat is a drink here ( made from eggs)  but also laywer.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I knew that thankyou.



EstherHegt said:



			Good luck with your pasture and your horses.
		
Click to expand...

Thankyou again but I do not need your luck. I have easily maintained and horse safe, ragwort free, wildflower meadow.



EstherHegt said:



			Go to a lawyer when you have ragwort in hay.
		
Click to expand...

I don't need one. I buy ragwort free forage that I see growing in the field before it is cut.



Esther I am sorry to disabuse you, but you are not the only person in the world who knows how to manage horse pasture. We do not need any of the "advice" that you have seen fit to give us on this thread. And we certainly don't need your insults. I hope you are now too busy to post any more.


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## EstherHegt (16 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			And we certainly don't need your insults. I hope you are now too busy to post any more.
		
Click to expand...


One more ;-) 
http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/scdocs/doc/447.pdf/


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## cptrayes (16 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Can you tell me - have you or someone close to you ever had a horse treated by Professor Knottenbelt or by Leahurst Hospital, and, if so, did that horse survive?
		
Click to expand...


Esther can you please answer this question for me, that I asked several pages ago and you may have missed?


----------



## EstherHegt (16 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Esther can you please answer this question for me, that I asked several pages ago and you may have missed?
		
Click to expand...

In the literature there are horses described that survided, sorry I missed you question.
Some of the literature is open and public, realise that there are a lot of plants containing PA's. The link before in my last post is written by world wide leading experts from EU. 

There are horses who do survive. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1476261/  Not all the literature is public, this one is.
It is nice to see in that report the mistake about wind dispersal, most seeds drop near the plant, but I  understand ( maybe wrong English word) that a vet is not a bioloog. 

 Defra  reports you can visit to check it by yourself. http://www.aht.org.uk/cms-display/disease_surveillance.html
Look at the 2004 that was a special abour liver disease http://www.aht.org.uk/skins/Default/pdfs/equine_pilot.pdf and follow that.


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## Festive_Felicitations (17 June 2012)

Dolcé;10808964 said:
			
		


			Thank goodness for that, please take your mate with you!

F_F, she is on her way to an OZ forum and it is all your fault for admitting you have ragwort over there!!!
		
Click to expand...

Oh I hope she is, I really hope she is - it will be brilliant!  

Do you think suggesting a forum would be taking it too far?


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## Circe (17 June 2012)

Festive_Felicitations said:



			Oh I hope she is, I really hope she is - it will be brilliant!  

Do you think suggesting a forum would be taking it too far? 

Click to expand...

LOL, I was considering posting earlier to say I'd spent the afternoon pulling out ragwort, ( while wearing gloves  ) from my horses paddock. 
YO is a meanie and wouldn't let me set fire to it 
If I see the OP on one of the forums here with their nonsense, I'll know who to blame 
Kx


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## cptrayes (17 June 2012)

Esther I find it hard to believe after everything else that you have written that your English is so poor that you did not understand my question. Will you answer it please? Third time of asking.





			Can you tell me - have you or someone close to you ever had a horse treated by Professor Knottenbelt or by Leahurst Hospital (edit - for any reason), and, if so, did that horse survive?
		
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## Nick Altena (17 June 2012)

Festive_Felicitations said:



			There is no hard evidence to say that Ragwort does or does not casue liver damage or other health problems through skin contact.
		
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Yes there is.
The PA's in this plant is not a special one.
There are around 6000 plants that have the same PA's
These PA's shout pas your digestion / stomach to be poison and damage you're liver.

And thát's simply not possible when comming in you're body by your skin...



------------




			On sheep and ragwort - Merinos and Merino x Dorper will graze ragwort (or the local species Fireweed (_Senacio madagascencis_)) when it is green and a have the some of the high capacity (among sheep) to deal with the toxins, and in some parts are a suggested control measure. 

*However it is also recommended that they not be grazed on infested pastures for more than 3 years as the likelihood of the suffering serious liver damage increases.*

Click to expand...

Yehhh..that's also a way in order to get rid of Ragwort...
But is this the way whe , horse-owners , think ?.
Sacrifice the sheeps ...to save the horses....




			Oh one control method not regularly mentioned is 'a 10 year drought'  ...ok ok so nothing else grows but a least you dont have any Ragwort 

Click to expand...

Don't look good to me... the seeds will survive and love the first drop of rain...

but because this answers come from a Dutchman, I think that in your eyes al i wrote is nonsens again


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## Nick Altena (17 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Esther can you please answer this question for me, that I asked several pages ago and you may have missed?
		
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I answer it for Esther

No... and why should we ?
We are not crazy even though I get the impression you here on this forum think so.
We do not send a horse with "ragwort" poisoning to the UK for various reasons.
1:
By the time it becomes visible, the horse is already well sick and you do not turn on a trip to the UK
2:
Additionally useless ... because as I wrote earlier ... there is no test that can specifically indicate that a liver problem of ragwort comes!
3:
We have also verry good specialist in the Netherlands about ragwort and there problemes.
4:
She has no horse with "ragwort" problems.

So tell me one good reason why we would do send a sick horse so far if we have one.


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## hairycob (17 June 2012)

As far as I can make out you believe there are only 2 choices - 

1)have "perfect" pasture & own horses, even though the pasture that you describe would probably kill many of our cobs & native ponies through laminitis.

2) Don't have horses.

The thing is there is a 3rd choice - have less than "perfect" pasture, pull the ragwort & own horses.


i really cannot see why you are getting so excited about choice 3. It is absolutely none of your business. And as I said before even if you managed to prove that Prof Knottenbelt is an evil shapeshifting alien it makes NO difference at all.  It is completely irrelevant - we know that ragwort is poisonous to horses, that is why we pull it & if anyone chooses to wear gloves that is their business & not yours.


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## cptrayes (17 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			I answer it for Esther

No... and why should we ?
We are not crazy even though I get the impression you here on this forum think so.
We do not send a horse with "ragwort" poisoning to the UK for various reasons.
.
		
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Nick I'm sorry but your English is not good enough to engage in a debate of this seriousness on a foreign language forum, where you are routinely insulting the British people by poor use of our language without even realising it. 

My question had nothing to do with ragwort poisoning whatsoever.

I admire how much English you know, it is more than I know of any other language, but you really need a better grasp of our language if you expect to be able to come on one of our forums and lecture us in the way that you have and not have it taken as badly as it has been. 




Nick Altena said:



			The PA's in this plant is not a special one.
There are around 6000 plants that have the same PA's
These PA's shout pas your digestion / stomach to be poison and damage you're liver.

And thát's simply not possible when comming in you're body by your skin...
		
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You are also no scientist if you think that knowing one way how a poison works means that it cannot possibly work in any other way. You have to disprove the other way before you can say that it cannot happen. Until then, it may well be possible, you just don't know about it.


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## LittleWildOne (18 June 2012)

If I eat Sheep liver, and that sheep has eaten (tonnes of) ragwort, will I get ragwort poisoning ?


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## Goldenstar (18 June 2012)

LittleWildOne said:



			If I eat Sheep liver, and that sheep has eaten (tonnes of) ragwort, will I get ragwort poisoning ? 

Click to expand...

No one knows I think but I used to know several vets that would not eat sheeps liver because of this.


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## Alec Swan (18 June 2012)

LittleWildOne said:



			If I eat Sheep liver, and that sheep has eaten (tonnes of) ragwort, will I get ragwort poisoning ? 

Click to expand...

Generally our lambs are killed by the time that they're 6 months,  and it would be unlikely that they would have eaten enough of the weed,  by that time.

Does a functioning liver have the capacity to actually store the poison?  I've never thought about it,  to be honest!

Alec.


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## Nick Altena (18 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Nick I'm sorry but your English is not good enough to engage in a debate of this seriousness on a foreign language forum, where you are routinely insulting the British people by poor use of our language without even realising it.
		
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pfffff...again the complain about my English ??

I ask different people i know in England if my English writing here is realy that poor that you can't read or understand it, as several say on this forum.
They tolt me... as they are realy that intelligent as they say... they can read AND understand what i am writing.
The question is more if you will....




			My question had nothing to do with ragwort poisoning whatsoever.
		
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You did not appointed ANY desease , BUT...we are writing in a line about ragwort.... so its explicable that i answer in this form.

No problem for me...tell me then why i schould send a horse from the Netherlands to England, to that professor or hospital , with any disease or healthy ? 




			I admire how much English you know, it is more than I know of any other language, but you really need a better grasp of our language if you expect to be able to come on one of our forums and lecture us in the way that you have and not have it taken as badly as it has been.
		
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Again
There was no line in the rules when i register here that say i must can write perfect English.
Make it a closed forum than you don't have this problem anymore....

You are ,by the way , welkom on every Dutch forum, despite you don't speak Dutch you can write in English and get your answers without any comment....even if you tried in Dutch 





			You are also no scientist if you think that knowing one way how a poison works means that it cannot possibly work in any other way. You have to disprove the other way before you can say that it cannot happen. Until then, it may well be possible, you just don't know about it.
		
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I am not scientis and I have also written nowhere that I am
There a other people with much much more knowledge who investigate this.
But i can search and read , combinate and learn....

Some References :

(1)Brauchli J., J. Luthy, U. Zweifel & C. Schlatter. 1982. Pyrrolizidine alkaloids from Symphytum officinale L. and their percutaneous absorption in rats. Experientia (Basel) 38: 1085-1087.
(2) Gordon, L. A. 1999. Compositae dermatitis. Australas. J. Dermatol. 40: 123-128.
(3) Warshaw, E. M. & K. A Zug. 1996. Sesquiterpene lactone allergy. Am. J. Contact. Dermat. 7: 1-23 


I quote from a English site for you that used that reference:

Concern has been expressed in some quarters of the risk of handling Ragwort. The concern being that the toxins could be absorbed through the skin and poisoning occur. However, alkaloids which are absorbed through the skin are in the N-Oxide form having not passed through the digestive system(1) and are therefore non-toxic. These are excreted from the system within 24-48 hours (1)

You can read it here  :
http://www.ragwortfacts.com/ragwort-humans.html


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## siennamum (18 June 2012)

I am really confused Nick et al about what you are trying to say. What is your point?


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## Nick Altena (18 June 2012)

LittleWildOne said:



			If I eat Sheep liver, and that sheep has eaten (tonnes of) ragwort, will I get ragwort poisoning ? 

Click to expand...

because my English is so poor...here you will find the answers  :

http://www.ragwortfacts.com/ragwort-meat.html 

that is NOT Eshter's site but one from the UK


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## hairycob (18 June 2012)

As siennamum said - what is your point? 
I've read this right through a couple of times (I've got a poorly knee & am bored) and, other than as I summarised is my last post, I can't see what you are getting at. You keep coming back on here repeating the same things as if we are stubbornly refusing to see your point but we cannot for the life of us work out what your actual problem is. 
So can you give us your recommendations in single sentence bullet points please. No links to other sites, papers etc because then we have to try & work out what it is you want us to pick up on - just plain straight forward facts & recommendations. 
Because as far as I can make out you think that unless I can keep my horses is lush, thick grass I should get rid of them. As lush, thick grass is 
1) not available to anybody around here
2) would give them laminitis 
the alternative would be shooting them. Is that what you think I should do?


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## LittleWildOne (18 June 2012)

LittleWildOne said:



			If I eat Sheep liver, and that sheep has eaten (tonnes of) ragwort, will I get ragwort poisoning ? 

Click to expand...

^^^^^THIS^^^^^ Was posted for a laugh .
I just wondered what our ragwort fanatics would say in reply 
Can't believe Nick actually hunted down and posted a link which was specific to my "question" 
I enjoy eating lamb, liver included, although chicken liver tastes MUCH better .
Nick and Esther, none of us can really understand what exactly you are trying to say .
Everything you are telling us (from repeated links to other sites ), we already KNOW.
We are NOT hysterical about ragwort. We KNOW about the risks, but also have to take into account the type of grazing which is SAFE for our equines.
The risk of LAMINITIS is very high in the UK, so our grazing HAS to be managed with this as a priority.  Lush, well fertilized, weed free, 5-6cm grass is NOT SAFE to graze our horses on, neither is stressed grass.
Your only point appears to be your personal vendetta against Professor Knottenbelt. Please go and "look up" the laws concerning libel and defamation of character before you make stataments about a world reknowned Professor.
This is a PUBLIC forum which ANYONE can access. Anyone "googling" Professor Knottenbelt (including himself) will be able to open a direct link to this thread, and read your defamatory remarks with their own eyes .
p.s. We don't need the trillion links to information on ragwort 
Please go away and annoy someone else .


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## cptrayes (18 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			pfffff...again the complain about my English ??

I ask different people i know in England if my English writing here is realy that poor that you can't read or understand it, as several say on this forum.
They tolt me... as they are realy that intelligent as they say... they can read AND understand what i am writing.
The question is more if you will....
		
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And yet again, because you do not know the nuances of colloquial English you have insulted me by suggesting that I am wilfully refusing to accept what you are writing. 

This is not the case, Nick. I understand what you are saying and I disagree with you. 

Your English is good but it is not good enough to come onto an English language forum and tell people that they are not managing their horses or grazing properly, without routinely -  unknowingly - insulting the native speakers.

It is excusable when it* is *unknowing, but I have now told you several times that you are insulting me and other people by your lack of full understanding of our language and yet you persist in doing it. That, I'm afraid, is just sheer bad manners.

Regarding your invitation to post on a Dutch site I can tell you that even if I was fluent in the language I would not dream of doing as you have done and posting on a foreign site lecturing people in another country how they should behave both emotionally and with regard to how they manage their pasture and keep their horses. It is downright rude that you have done it and that you persist in doing it.


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## lachlanandmarcus (18 June 2012)

hairycob said:



			As siennamum said - what is your point? 
I've read this right through a couple of times (I've got a poorly knee & am bored) and, other than as I summarised is my last post, I can't see what you are getting at. You keep coming back on here repeating the same things as if we are stubbornly refusing to see your point but we cannot for the life of us work out what your actual problem is. 
So can you give us your recommendations in single sentence bullet points please. No links to other sites, papers etc because then we have to try & work out what it is you want us to pick up on - just plain straight forward facts & recommendations. 
Because as far as I can make out you think that unless I can keep my horses is lush, thick grass I should get rid of them. As lush, thick grass is 
1) not available to anybody around here
2) would give them laminitis 
the alternative would be shooting them. Is that what you think I should do?
		
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This, x 1000......:-D

Please understand that we do understand the points you are trying to make, we just dont agree with them and also believe you are focusing on how to make pasture ragwort free without considering the other risks that the pasture you advocate brings to horses in the UK.


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## Fellewell (18 June 2012)

No one likes being put to shame. 

Here in the UK at this time of year we go up hill and down dale to the point of exhaustion, in search of Senecio Vulgaris L.

If they can't be bothered to put in some graft - even though The Netherlands is as flat as a pancake - then the least they could do is to stop coming up with lame excuses for their - dare I say it - laziness


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## EstherHegt (18 June 2012)

Fellewell said:



			No one likes being put to shame. 

Here in the UK at this time of year we go up hill and down dale to the point of exhaustion, in search of Senecio Vulgaris L.
		
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S vulgaris = groundsel
Before ragwort was called Senecio Jacobaea, after DNA research the new name is Jacobaea vulgaris.


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## Fellewell (18 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			S vulgaris = groundsel
Before ragwort was called Senecio Jacobaea, after DNA research the new name is Jacobaea vulgaris.
		
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Ragwort Poisoning - pyrrolizidine alkaloidal poisoning - seneciosis.
The senecio genera of plants is one of the largest. Not all species are poisonous but the 'common ragwort', senecio jocobea and 'groundsel', S. vulgaris ARE. The less common are the March and Oxford Ragworts.

This information is taken from The BHS Veterinary Manual - P. Stewart Hastie MRCVS

A rose by any other name?


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## Nick Altena (18 June 2012)

LittleWildOne said:



			^^^^^THIS^^^^^ Was posted for a laugh .
I just wondered what our ragwort fanatics would say in reply 
Can't believe Nick actually hunted down and posted a link which was specific to my "question" 

Click to expand...


I was raised in this way.
When people ask questions, I answer, no mather how difficult this is for me , like on this forum ...in English.

Despite that someone writes that most of the people here are so intelligent and other people write here that you know already everything, there are still a lot of questions I perceive


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## Nick Altena (18 June 2012)

LittleWildOne said:



			The risk of LAMINITIS is very high in the UK, so our grazing HAS to be managed with this as a priority.  Lush, well fertilized, weed free, 5-6cm grass is NOT SAFE to graze our horses on, neither is stressed grass.
		
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May i ask what kind of grass is "normal"  / regular in the UK for horses ?


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## EstherHegt (18 June 2012)

Fellewell said:



			Ragwort Poisoning - pyrrolizidine alkaloidal poisoning - seneciosis.
The senecio genera of plants is one of the largest. Not all species are poisonous but the 'common ragwort', senecio jocobea and 'groundsel', S. vulgaris ARE. The less common are the March and Oxford Ragworts.

This information is taken from The BHS Veterinary Manual - P. Stewart Hastie MRCVS

A rose by any other name?
		
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It is correct you tell dat all Jacobaea species have PA's who grow in and Europe. But also a lot of other plants, 6000 worldwide. Good you did some search about it!!! One of my co authors does a lot of research especially about this plants http://pieterpelser.blogspot.nl/
He is also a reference in the EFSA report about PA's.


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## siennamum (18 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			I was raised in this way.
When people ask questions, I answer, no mather how difficult this is for me , like on this forum ...in English.

Despite that someone writes that most of the people here are so intelligent and other people write here that you know already everything, there are still a lot of questions I perceive 

Click to expand...

Well then perhaps you can answer some of the questions you have so far ignored, for example:

 Originally Posted by hairycob  View Post
As siennamum said - what is your point?
I've read this right through a couple of times (I've got a poorly knee & am bored) and, other than as I summarised is my last post, I can't see what you are getting at. You keep coming back on here repeating the same things as if we are stubbornly refusing to see your point but we cannot for the life of us work out what your actual problem is.
So can you give us your recommendations in single sentence bullet points please. No links to other sites, papers etc because then we have to try & work out what it is you want us to pick up on - just plain straight forward facts & recommendations.
Because as far as I can make out you think that unless I can keep my horses is lush, thick grass I should get rid of them. As lush, thick grass is
1) not available to anybody around here
2) would give them laminitis
the alternative would be shooting them. Is that what you think I should do?


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## EstherHegt (18 June 2012)

siennamum said:



			Well then perhaps you can answer some of the questions you have so far ignored, for example:

 what is your point?
		
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The point is in the OP. The solution for the ragwortproblem is in good care for the pasture, Not in believing myths. There are a lot of good sources about ragwort, there are a lot of world wide experts. They know the plant, they did a lot of research and they have the solution, that is pasture management. In UK they believe one source, a prof who could has ask collegae, could go to the literature, that exists worldwide. I already gave the EFSA report, European Food Safety Authority. 2007. Opinion of the Scientific Panel on contaminants in the food chain on a request from the European Commission
related to Pyrrolizidine alkaloids as undesirable substances in animal feed. The EFSA Journal 447: 1-51.

In that rapport the experts are, look at the references and the literature. Then make your own opinion. Look always to the primary source, Can they proove it, are there other scientists who controlled it.

I can understand people are confused, the papers repeated year after year wrong figures. Wrong methods to get rid of it in the pasture.


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## Crugeran Celt (18 June 2012)

LittleWildOne said:



			If I eat Sheep liver, and that sheep has eaten (tonnes of) ragwort, will I get ragwort poisoning ? 

Click to expand...

Try eating Welsh salt marsh lamb, no ragwort on the marshes.


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## touchstone (18 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			The point is in the OP. The solution for the ragwortproblem is in good care for the pasture, Not in believing myths. There are a lot of good sources about ragwort, there are a lot of world wide experts. They know the plant, they did a lot of research and they have the solution, that is pasture management. In UK they believe one source, a prof who could has ask collegae, could go to the literature, that exists worldwide. I already gave the EFSA report, European Food Safety Authority. 2007. Opinion of the Scientific Panel on contaminants in the food chain on a request from the European Commission
related to Pyrrolizidine alkaloids as undesirable substances in animal feed. The EFSA Journal 447: 1-51.

In that rapport the experts are, look at the references and the literature. Then make your own opinion. Look always to the primary source, Can they proove it, are there other scientists who controlled it.

I can understand people are confused, the papers repeated year after year wrong figures. Wrong methods to get rid of it in the pasture.
		
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I don't think anybody is confused by the scientific papers, but by your apparent mission to proclaim how terrible the UK's pasture management is! And that a weed that you admit is poisonous actually isn't that poisonous

I think my method of removing ragwort has been pretty successful. When I first took on the land I pulled barrowloads of the stuff out, clearing an area at a time and of course it was cleared before putting the horse on.  In time all I get now is the odd rosette springing up.  Calcified seaweed was added in the first year or so.

Manure is cleared twice daily, sheep graze the excess grass and gently fertilise as they go, injurous weeds are removed and my horse can enjoy 24/7 turnout instead of being stuck in a stable to avoid the rich over fertilised grass  (or well managed, dense sward) that could potentially kill her.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (18 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			The point is in the OP.* The solution for the ragwortproblem is in good care for the pasture*, Not in believing myths. There are a lot of good sources about ragwort, there are a lot of world wide experts. They know the plant, they did a lot of research and they have the solution, that is pasture management. In UK they believe one source, a prof who could has ask collegae, could go to the literature, that exists worldwide. I already gave the EFSA report, European Food Safety Authority. 2007. Opinion of the Scientific Panel on contaminants in the food chain on a request from the European Commission
related to Pyrrolizidine alkaloids as undesirable substances in animal feed. The EFSA Journal 447: 1-51.

In that rapport the experts are, look at the references and the literature. Then make your own opinion. Look always to the primary source, Can they proove it, are there other scientists who controlled it.

I can understand people are confused, the papers repeated year after year wrong figures. Wrong methods to get rid of it in the pasture.
		
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Ester, in the UK good pasture management is to remove noxious & prolific weeds. On government advice; this includes Ragwort. It gets removed by responsible people who find it on their land.

What is the problem in us people in the UK in following direct official advice?


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## EstherHegt (18 June 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			Try eating Welsh salt marsh lamb, no ragwort on the marshes.

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Don't forget a lot af garlic and onions , use especially Jacobaea paludosa ;-)


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## touchstone (18 June 2012)

Samphire's the thing with salt marsh lamb.


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## Crugeran Celt (18 June 2012)

I would like to know what the OP has a problem with, our terrible pastures that we do not look after or the fact that we are killing this poor plant to extinction? I have only read part of this post as it is so long and a lot of it makes very little sense to me but what is the harm in pulling this plant if we want to. I too have a Welsh cob and a Welsh cob/TB who would not benefit from a 'good pasture', they would both be obese and totally depressed if they were only allowed out for short periods of time to stop them gorging themselves on rich pasture. I never fertilize as it would be to rich for them so I have to pull the weeds and plants I do not want, that way I have two happy horses who live out 24/7 summer and winter only coming in in extreme wet or if there is snow on the ground or if it is very hot. They are happy, I am happy to PULL RAGWORT so there!


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## Crugeran Celt (18 June 2012)

touchstone said:



			Samphire's the thing with salt marsh lamb. 

Click to expand...

Better stick to beef then, or do cows eat ragwort? What about eggs if the chicken has had a nibble on the ragwort? We could all become vegetarians very soon or shall we just keep pulling ragwort!


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## hairycob (18 June 2012)

Please answer my question in the simple format I have asked for. Referring back to the OP is pointless as it is perfectly apparent from the responses that you are getting that you have not explained yourselves clearly. 
The Brits are quite rightly criticised for thinking that repeating themsleves loudly & slowly will make themselves understood abroad & quite frankly that is what you are doing here. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe the reason you can't get your argument across is because you are wrong?


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## EstherHegt (18 June 2012)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Ester, in the UK good pasture management is to remove noxious & prolific weeds. On government advice; this includes Ragwort. It gets removed by responsible people who find it on their land.

What is the problem in us people in the UK in following direct official advice? 

Click to expand...


AHH now is see the problem of the confusion. When you have ragwort at the pasture, you have to responsible and remove it, but it is much better to do that with good pasture manegament than to be afraid. In UK is not a law you have to remove it everywehere. A responsible horse owner, and I think there are a lot in UK, make a good management plan, with good management you can solve the problem without fear. There are not 6500 dead horses a year in England a year. Horses don't like ragwort, if they eat it, then they are starvibg to death, or it is in hay. Now we have a European law, food has to be safe.  The problem is still in UK a lot of people don't know how to get rid of ragwort in their pasture, that is the point. Seeds don't blow miles away, seeds need a good place to germinate, then is it the question for that seeds if the ground is suitable to make a big population of ragwort. When I look in the English magazines en papers, I see always bad managed pasture. Bad managed pasture is suitable for ragwort. ( but also for laminitis and grass sickness!)


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## Nick Altena (18 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			And yet again, because you do not know the nuances of colloquial English you have insulted me by suggesting that I am wilfully refusing to accept what you are writing. 

This is not the case, Nick. I understand what you are saying and I disagree with you.
		
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That's great, at least ONE is understand what i am saying... perhaps you can explain it to the others ?

I am sorry when i have insulted you personaly by suggesting you are not wilfully accept what i am writing.
But read this line again and then maiby you understand better why and what i'm writing....

A lot of you have comment about my English... you where just one of them with that comment...
So it was not personal to you but for all in this tread that have comment about my English.
It seems it was not that bad as they here say it is ....


Another important point which I think many misunderstand me:

Its not that you or any other person on this forum MUST accept what i am writing.

I only hope there are some people here thinking about whát we write , reading the info whát we give in the links.... and think it over.

And than i hope they can make the decision independently for their own,  if that which tells to you all these years in the United Kingdom....is right or wrong.

But WHEN you read al the info, you find out that a lot of the info in England about ragwort is nót correct and that there IS arise panic by this incorrect info. (comming from... i can't help thát !! He did some verry good work...i know.... but not this one and he personaly himself admitted that.)

my thoughts... the proff. , the media and all the sellers from ragwort stuff like the ragwort fork... brought scary stories for a simple reason 
Its not a story for your horse or child or you're own life ...its all about the money they earn with it.
It has nothing to do with the reality....a lot of there story's are myths... no facts....

but no worries ... I leave you .... for the time being ... 
Think what ever you want of us... but think for your self , think, read and learn.

That's all.....and thank you for patience and your hospitality  
(yes, I meant that very deliberately cryptic for some of you )


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## touchstone (18 June 2012)

I'm not panicked, I think for myself and read articles which still say that ragwort is poisonous, I remove ragwort and look after my pasture.

As I've said before, short, possibly stressed grass is better for my horse as she can't consume the quantity she would be able to with dense long grazing.


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## misterjinglejay (18 June 2012)

Can you tell us what your pasture management routine is like in Holland, please? Are most of your horses out all the time? And do you have a problem with laminitis?

Thanks


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## EstherHegt (18 June 2012)

touchstone said:



			I'm not panicked, I think for myself and read articles which still say that ragwort is poisonous,
		
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We never told ragwort is not poisonous. We don't like the myths.


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## EstherHegt (18 June 2012)

misterjay said:



			Can you tell us what your pasture management routine is like in Holland, please? Are most of your horses out all the time? And do you have a problem with laminitis?

Thanks
		
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Laminitis is a world wide problem. What we do is horsesw ho are prone to laminitis ( I have one a horse with PPID , before they called it Cushing) limit their grazing, and we choose warm season grasses. A very good grass website about the fructan problem is the website safer grass from Kathy Watts. 
This is also a very good website about that problem, these researches are very nice and wil help you also with questions. http://www.ahf-laminitis.org/ and they have videos about the laminitis problems.

PS I have Icelandic horses, they are always outside.


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## hairycob (18 June 2012)

So to summarise 

1) Ragwort is poisonous.
2) If you have it in your pasture you should get rid of it. 
3) Ragwort is less likely to spread where there is a lush, thick sward. 

So nothing the vast majority of us did not know already. And to be frank, the people who don't remove ragwort from their pasture are unlikely to be coming on this forum.

So what is it you are getting your knickers in a twist about?

And will you please just say what you think & not just continually refer to links. If you have a recommendation state it clearly & succinctly & back up with a link to support if necessary. In the UK people find it ill mannered to just say if you want to know what to do read this.


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## EstherHegt (18 June 2012)

hairycob said:



			So what is it you are getting your knickers in a twist about?
		
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The myths Watson, the myths.


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## cptrayes (18 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			We never told ragwort is not poisonous. We don't like the myths.
		
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And we don't like your myths that we panic about ragwort and that we do not know how to manage it in our own pastures.

The UK is not full of grazing like you see in magazine articles about ragwort Esther, they pick those photos for shock value.

You are completely incorrect in your advice that ragwort will not grow in dense grass sward in Britain, by the way.

If the farmers around your hay fields have a lot of ragwort uncontrolled then no matter how dense your hay crop ragwort can and* does* grow in it.

I watch my neighbours pull ragwort from their hay fields every year before cutting and it is reseeded in different places by their neighbours to grow the the next year. Their hayfields are established meadows with a very dense sward of a large variety of grasses.


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## misterjinglejay (18 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			And we don't like your myths that we panic about ragwort and that we do not know how to manage it in our own pastures.

The UK is not full of grazing like you see in magazine articles Esther, they pick those photos for shock value.
		
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This is very true. UK media, especially horse magazines, go overboard on ragwort. Most of us just carry on as we have been - no panic, no fear.


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## EstherHegt (18 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			The UK is not full of grazing like you see in magazine articles about ragwort Esther, they pick those photos for shock value.
		
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That is te problem! That is why there are myths. And I am done with the myths. I hope you all also have done with the myths and are going to the press and tell them!


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## Mrs B (18 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			The myths Watson, the myths.
		
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As cptrayes says: we do not panic about ragwort here.

We KNOW how to cope with it.

I honestly feel sad that you're wasting so much time and energy on a problem which doesn't exist, except in your (and Nick's) head!

How about focussing your attention on something that *really* matters, where you could make a difference? You're obviously someone who campaigns with a passion, so why not do the same for live horse transport for slaughter, or something similar?


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## hairycob (18 June 2012)

EstherHegt,

Did you mean to be that rude & patronising? Because that is what you & you colleague are. You obviously have no idea how people in the UK look after thier horses & even if occasionally we are less than perfect I'm sure there are many things that we could criticise about the way horses are kept in Holland. Except we are too polite. My next door neighbour has a Dutch horse - it was clearly rapped before it was imported, maybe on the basis of that I should go on a Dutch forum & tell you the proper way to teach horses to jump. But no, because I have the common sense to realise that not all Dutch horses are trained that way. The same way that you should have the sense to realise that a photo showing how horses should not be kept does not mean that the majority horses over here are kept that way. In the UK we like to have room for our horses to move about & that is why we limit the calorific value of grazing by using poorer pasture & go to the effort of removing ragwort.


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## Capriole (18 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			I hope you all also have done with the myths and are going to the press and tell them!
		
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No, I wouldnt think anyone here will be going to the press about it, since we arent hysterical enough to bother.
You feel free to, though, since youre clearly quite hysterical about it all.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (18 June 2012)

Anyone going over to the Netherlands, do take a good look at pasture management as a whole.
We regularly go over - and tho much is lovely (think of going through Lambourn just for example) there is also weed infested land too - badly managed and unkempt. 

Ester m'dear, go & find something/somewhere where your links & postings may be read with interest. 

There will always be someone/somewhere that does their 'own thing' & not conform to the ideal. On this forum I feel you really are muddying waters and findng yourself in too deep.


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## hairycob (18 June 2012)

As MrsB suggested - you clearly have a lot of time & energy spend it on something that really matters


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## siennamum (18 June 2012)

How strange Esther that you present yourself as educated and are rather patronising about the ignorance of people in the UK BUT you haven't made any effort to educate yourself about the way British people keep their horses. That hasn't stopped you roundly denouncing us, which is fairly bigoted and ignorant to be honest.


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## cptrayes (18 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			That is te problem! That is why there are myths. And I am done with the myths. I hope you all also have done with the myths and are going to the press and tell them!
		
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But the myths that you are so hysterical about do no harm whatsoever Esther. We have better things to do with our time in this country.

Can I suggest that your time would be better spent worrying about why pig welfare standards are so much lower in The Netherlands than they are in Britain and why your farmers are taking so much more time than ours to adopt the EU pig welfare guidelines? Now that WOULD be worth spending time over.


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## EstherHegt (18 June 2012)

I thank everybody for the cooperation to confirm a lot of myths. That is very valuable for the press. Thanks also for all the kind words.


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## Nick Altena (18 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			And we don't like your myths that we panic about ragwort and that we do not know how to manage it in our own pastures.

The UK is not full of grazing like you see in magazine articles Esther, they pick those photos for shock value.
		
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Ahhh... we come to the point what WE mean....

When there is no ragwort paninc in the UK ... can you explain me then why they want to show you... schock value fhoto's ??? 





			You are completely incorrect in your advice that ragwort will not grow in dense grass sward, by the way.
		
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What is the completely incorrect info about that ?
In a dense grass sward ... there is no disturbe (open) ground... what means... no idial place for ragwort seeds to grow.
Its so simple....




			If the farmers around your hay fields have a lot of ragwort uncontrolled then no matter how dense your hay crop ragwort can and* does* grow in it.
		
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Then you would have to go to the farmer...and tel your problem with the ragwort.

Here... in the Netherlands... the farmers want to get rid of their manure (is that the right word ? the s h i t of the animals/cows)
They put it on there fields ...
Just like al the stuf they put on against other weed then ragwort and to let grow the gras for the cows.
There is rarely a field in the Netherlands from a framer that have ragwort.
Strage to me there is in the UK...
The ragwort here that gives problems  is mostly in the nature reserves and along the highways, not by farmers. 




			I watch my neighbours pull ragwort from their hay fields every year before cutting and it is reseeded in different places by their neighbours to grow the the next year. Their hayfields are established meadows with a very dense sward of a large variety of grasses.
		
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Put manure on it ?... maybe it works... ragwort don't like it verry much.

Did you ever ask other people what they do when they have NO ragwort in ther fields than pulling ?

Besides...when pulling , its comming back... remember the broken roods... we write it before.


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## hairycob (18 June 2012)

What?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (18 June 2012)

Esther, never mind Ragwort, I think you need to lay off the Cannabis sativa


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## Crugeran Celt (18 June 2012)

???????????????????? or am I the only numpty that has no idea what these people are on about?


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## hairycob (18 June 2012)

This would be a good welfare issue for you to spend your time on.

The appalling standards of pig welfare in Holland including the prevalence of tail docking & lack of environmental enrichment. I believe castration levels are also high in Holland.

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/what_we_do/p...rcover_investigation/netherlands/default.aspx

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jan/06/animal-welfare-food-bacon

Sorry, but I doget a bit hysterical about the welfare of the animals I eat - that's why I stick to British pig products.


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## hairycob (18 June 2012)

Here is a good article to panic about  - the prevalence of MRSA in dutch pork. Or is that a myth?

http://www.eco-storm.com/2009/03/do...-intensive-pig-industry-and-new-type-of-mrsa/


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## Nick Altena (18 June 2012)

Mrs B said:



			As cptrayes says: we do not panic about ragwort here.

We KNOW how to cope with it.

I honestly feel sad that you're wasting so much time and energy on a problem which doesn't exist, except in your (and Nick's) head!

How about focussing your attention on something that *really* matters, where you could make a difference? You're obviously someone who campaigns with a passion, so why not do the same for live horse transport for slaughter, or something similar?
		
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Why do you think this is the only thing we do ??
Do not stop in a box if you do not know us ...


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## Capriole (18 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Now that *is* hysterical 

How about you take your own advice?
		
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## hairycob (18 June 2012)

Tell me  Nick - is the plight of Dutch pigs on your hit list or is or is it only foreigners you patronise? Because guess what - you did it again.


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## hairycob (18 June 2012)

Tell me - why is Holland slow to adopt the Pig Directive?

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/news/pig_farming/dutch_pig_investigation_reveals_eu_law_breaches.aspx


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## hairycob (18 June 2012)

Come on Nick - I know you are reading this thread - what about the little piggies?


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## hairycob (18 June 2012)

Nick/Esther - have you gone all shy on us? Or do you not like it when the boot is on the other foot?


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## Mrs B (18 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Do not stop in a box if you do not know us ...
		
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Huh? Lost in translation, I think... 

No wait - don't answer that. I think I now know _quite_ enough about you and Esther and have no wish to know any more. I won't get back the last half hour of my life it's taken to read this pointless, weird ranting.

Over and out.

Mrs B.


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## Nick Altena (18 June 2012)

hairycob said:



			Tell me  Nick - is the plight of Dutch pigs on your hit list or is or is it only foreigners you patronise? Because guess what - you did it again.
		
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I quote:
A recent investigation by a Dutch organisation has found that many pigs in the Netherlands are still being raised in conditions that break EU law. 

An undercover investigation by Dutch animal rights group Ongehoord

ssssttt....do not tell others... its yust ONE thing on the list i do...  

But agian... i want to leave this site.
I have a lot to do and the politeness here is hard to find.
WE are not polite to you ??
read again this line.... and see how you all are talking about us...

Think about tis one... then maybe you understand why i'm leaving here.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-mob-mentality.htm


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## touchstone (18 June 2012)

It's not a mob mentality Nick, just a lot of individuals who happen not to agree with you 

And no you aren't polite to us inferring we are all ignorant panicked imbeciles who can't manage pasture or laminitic horses correctly.


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## hairycob (18 June 2012)

I'll be kind and say it is because your English is good, but not good enough for what you are trying to do,& because you don't understand British culture that, despite having it pointed out to you an many occasions you do not understand why we find you so rude. But it is strange because my neice married a Dutch guy & has lived in Amsterdam for years. I have always found the Dutch people I have become acquainted with through her to be very polite & very perceptive, so maybe I'd be wrong in that.

The Dutch piggies need your help far more than our horses so it probably is a good idea if you don't waste anymore time on here. Although I should be thanking you for keeping me entertained when I'm too injured to ride.


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## Fellewell (18 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			It is correct you tell dat all Jacobaea species have PA's who grow in and Europe. But also a lot of other plants, 6000 worldwide. Good you did some search about it!!! One of my co authors does a lot of research especially about this plants http://pieterpelser.blogspot.nl/
He is also a reference in the EFSA report about PA's.
		
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Nicely patronising (thought you had me there didn't you)

You say you lost a six year old mare to liver failure.

How did she die Esther?


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## Alec Swan (18 June 2012)

Mrs B said:



			.......

How about focussing your attention on something that *really* matters, where you could make a difference? You're obviously someone who campaigns with a passion, so why not do the same for live horse transport for slaughter, or something similar?
		
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Don't be silly Mrs B,  they eat the bloody things.  Get real,  "Campaign" for a better world with horse slaughter?  Are you being serious?  That would be like ***king for virginity! 

Alec.


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## cptrayes (18 June 2012)

by Nick
When there is no ragwort paninc in the UK ... can you explain me then why they want to show you... schock value fhoto's ???
		
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It's called jounalism, Nick, it sells papers. Only an idiot would think all our fields look like it. 






			by Nick
What is the completely incorrect info about that ?

In a dense grass sward ... there is no disturbe (open) ground... what means... no idial place for ragwort seeds to grow.
Its so simple....
		
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It is NOT so simple. Ragwort can and *does* grow in a dense sward - I see it with my own eyes!





			by Nick
Besides...when pulling , its comming back... remember the broken roods... we write it before.
		
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Besides ....when pulling, it is NOT coming back ..... remember I have told you  that I have been pulling it for 20 years and it is NOT coming back in the same place .... I write it 3 times before.


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## cptrayes (18 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			But agian... i want to leave this site.
		
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If you are unable to distinguish between mob rule and a group of individuals who simply do not agree with you, please do.

You have been incredibly insulting to the horse owners of Great Britain Nick, I hope that you are not representative of Dutch people as a whole. I do not think you have done your fellow countrymen any favours with your posts on this thread


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## Queenbee (18 June 2012)

Omg!!!! They are still here!!  God save us all!


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## LittleWildOne (19 June 2012)

I've never tried Welsh salt marsh lamb before. I'd like to try it someday 
I HAVE tasted Welsh Black beef........Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, delicious 
I have also eaten Highland beef, as well as Aberdeen Angus and Simmental. Oh, and if Water Buffalo counts (there's a herd here in Scotland)...BEAUTIFUL !!!

Other than those, I haven't knowingly eaten any other specific breed meat, but I would like to .

What is the "perfect" grazing here ?
The high fibre/low energy ROUGH Mountain and Moorland pasture on which our Native breeds have evolved and survived for thousands of years


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## Cedars (19 June 2012)

....well, I'm off to go and pull some ragwort. With gloves on. Cos you know, it's REALLY not worth the risk-to me, or my horse. 





Jog on....


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## PolarSkye (19 June 2012)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Anyone going over to the Netherlands, do take a good look at pasture management as a whole.
We regularly go over - and tho much is lovely (think of going through Lambourn just for example) there is also weed infested land too - badly managed and unkempt. 

Ester m'dear, go & find something/somewhere where your links & postings may be read with interest. 

There will always be someone/somewhere that does their 'own thing' & not conform to the ideal. On this forum I feel you really are muddying waters and findng yourself in too deep.
		
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This.  TFF speaks much sense.  Esther, as someone else suggested, why don't you take your obvious passion for campaigning and channel it elsewhere?  

P


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## PolarSkye (19 June 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			There is rarely a field in the Netherlands from a framer that have ragwort.
Strage to me there is in the UK...
The ragwort here that gives problems  is mostly in the nature reserves and along the highways, not by farmers.
		
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And herein lies the problem Nick . . . the UK is much more densely populated than the Netherlands, the land is not divided in quite the same way, and farmland/highways/set asides for wildlife often exist side-by-side . . . seeds blow in the wind, etc. and hey presto ragwort appears in the sward of grazing land for all animals.  

While I admire your passion, I think you have inadvertently put people's backs up . . . just because ragwort isn't a problem in The Netherlands, doesn't mean it isn't here . . . and, personally, I will continue to pull ragwort from my horse's field until someone can definitively prove to me that it doesn't cause liver damage.  Yes, I know that I have to pull it multiple times and in the proper manner before it no longer comes up . . . yes, I know that I'm fighting a losing battle due to the ragwort alongside some of the hedgerows . . . but it takes me 20 minutes or so once a week to pull it and that seems like a small price to pay for the health of my beloved horse.

P


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## Alec Swan (20 June 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			.......

. . . just because ragwort isn't a problem in The Netherlands, doesn't mean it isn't here . . . 

.......
P
		
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Something's just occurred to me,  if there is no Ragwort in the Netherlands,  then how come they've become such a collection of God Almighty experts?  

As others have suggested,  the opening post was no more than an attempt to discredit Prof. Wot'sisname.  An attempt which has failed,  abysmally.  It also occurs to me that as one of the contributors to this thread was involved in a specific paper,  to attempt to discredit another,  is highly unprofessional. 

Alec.


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## Dab (20 June 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			And herein lies the problem Nick . . . the UK is much more densely populated than the Netherlands, the land is not divided in quite the same way, and farmland/highways/set asides for wildlife often exist side-by-side . . . seeds blow in the wind, etc. and hey presto ragwort appears in the sward of grazing land for all animals.  

P
		
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Not sure that is correct, i thought the Netherlands was more densely populated than the UK 

But other than that, i think by and large us UK horse folk do the best we can with our pasture management, and feel rather put out to be told how to 'suck-eggs' by a small Dutch contingent!


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## Goldenstar (20 June 2012)

Queenbee said:



			Omg!!!! They are still here!!  God save us all!
		
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I know just when my heart rate was lowering from all the people say my ( perfectly normal ) horse is looking too thin threads it gets worse this is plain wierd.


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## pootleperkin (21 June 2012)

The whole thing just stinks of scientific agenda.......why make so much fuss about a non issue?

I'm afraid this is just a research group assuming (hoping) that there is hysteria about ragwort in the UK after seeing some articles in the press (there isn't) and using said 'hysteria' to push their research and discredit another rival group's work. Seems strange to do it on a public forum though....wouldn't have though research grant councils would be interested.......

Best place to do it is to keep publishing in peer review scientific journals people.


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## jaquelin (22 June 2012)

Obvious facts: Nick & Esther are pig - ignorant about the scientific method. A lot of the stuff they are disputing as not arising scientifically I.e. coming via controlled scientific experiments, have actually been gleaned, quite properly from clinical observation. For example, ragwort is an observable skin irritant. Doubtless, Prof K has not done controlled studies on this, but why should he need to? It is self-evident.
Second, the N & E show keep harping on about 6500 deaths per annum not being verifiable. But I am sure that figure comes from a quite accurate extrapolation. Sadly, the majority of ragwort attributable deaths are never reported. Those that are represent a small percentage, thus the annual estimate doubtless is a product of reported deaths times the likely estimated percentage of actual deaths this represents - e.g., 10% reported = 650; actual = 6500.
Go learn about the real process of scientific & clinical practice you two!


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## spaniel (22 June 2012)

"But, that's enough for me. Esther was foolish to open this thread. She made the mistake of assuming that this forum was used by people who care about understanding the best ways to look after their animals."

Oh good grief....sounds like someones in the Parelli camp.  Thread was interesting up to this point but have now decided not to waste any more of my life on it.

Ive spent years pulling ragwort and will continue to do so.


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## JanetGeorge (22 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Today I was looking in my archives and I found it remarkable that all the fear in UK came from one source. Everebody did repeat that source, that source is prof Knottenbelt, he is the one who make people afraid! One source!!!  But there are much more sources who completely say different things, there is a lot of scientific info about ragwort, we don t 'need need  fear and Chinese whispers.
		
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What bo**ocks!  The concern regarding ragwort comes from a LOT of different sources - especially owners whose horses have died as a result of ragwort poisoning!

And if it comes to a choice between believing Prof. Knottenbelt, an OUTSTANDING veterinary surgeon and researcher, - or a bunch of unknown sources - I know who I believe!


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## EstherHegt (22 June 2012)

A good bye message, read the book!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMnEpOsGH4o&feature=related


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## Stinkbomb (22 June 2012)

....yawn


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## EstherHegt (26 June 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			Best place to do it is to keep publishing in peer review scientific journals people.
		
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Absolutily right, my advisors and co authors did! http://www.jakobskruiskruid.com/website/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=49  there they are.

And this http://www.jakobskruiskruid.com/website/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=62&Itemid=50  the literature.

And for the people who really want to solve their pasture problem, they can ask here ( in Dutch) but people are nice in Holland, they wil try in English ( look at the post of mr. Justice!) http://www.paardenwetenschap.nl/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=73  your law!!!!


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## Capriole (26 June 2012)

I havent got a pasture problem, if I see ragwort I remove it, no problem.


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## EstherHegt (26 June 2012)

Capriole said:



			I havent got a pasture problem, if I see ragwort I remove it, no problem.
		
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That is good, not a yellow field, you do good pasture managment and your horse don't breath the seeds ( that is a myth) if your horse rolls in pasture there is no skin absorption ( also a myth) 
When people believe this myths I wonder why the horses wear no masks, not blankets etc. I also wonder why people dig year after year ragwort, if you know the plant that is not needed. There are not so many dead  (6500) horses a year. ( In Liverpool there where none by asking FOI ) I gave that link before! http://www.thepoisongarden.co.uk/blog/blog111011.htm
Best is to recognice ragwort in a early stage, ( rosette) when people dig op mature plants........they did sleep the year before.


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## Crugeran Celt (26 June 2012)

I've been pulling ragwort in the rain today, lovely! Seeded from neighbouring fields who do NOT PULL THEIR RAGWORT!


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## misterjinglejay (27 June 2012)

I don't know anyone who worries about horses inhaling the seeds, or rolling on ragwort. I've never, ever read about these being issues. 

Obviously, we all remove ragwort from our pastures, but inhaling the seeds, or skin absorbtion through rolling?? 

Has anyone ever heard of these 'issues'?


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## Dobiegirl (27 June 2012)

misterjay said:



			I don't know anyone who worries about horses inhaling the seeds, or rolling on ragwort. I've never, ever read about these being issues. 

Obviously, we all remove ragwort from our pastures, but inhaling the seeds, or skin absorbtion through rolling?? 

Has anyone ever heard of these 'issues'?
		
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No me neither, if I didnt know better I would say someone has made this up.


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## fatpiggy (27 June 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			The whole thing just stinks of scientific agenda.......why make so much fuss about a non issue?

I'm afraid this is just a research group assuming (hoping) that there is hysteria about ragwort in the UK after seeing some articles in the press (there isn't) and using said 'hysteria' to push their research and discredit another rival group's work. Seems strange to do it on a public forum though....wouldn't have though research grant councils would be interested.......

Best place to do it is to keep publishing in peer review scientific journals people.
		
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The research councils are very strapped for cash at the moment - almost all research is now on given themes, not the blue-skies funding that used to be available, and if it doesn't affect humans then they just aren't interested.


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## Fellewell (27 June 2012)

Can you absorb mares urine through the skin?

I'm post-menopausal but always feel better when I've finished mucking out. 

It sure as hell smells like I have anyway


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## rhino (27 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			That is good, not a yellow field, you do good pasture managment and your horse don't breath the seeds ( that is a myth) if your horse rolls in pasture there is no skin absorption ( also a myth) 
When people believe this myths I wonder why the horses wear no masks, not blankets etc. I also wonder why people dig year after year ragwort, if you know the plant that is not needed. There are not so many dead  (6500) horses a year. ( In Liverpool there where none by asking FOI )
		
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Now now Esther, I really suggest you stop being deliberately dishonest. May I remind you that the 6500 figure was an estimate arising from a study from the BHS and BEVA, and had nothing to do with Mr Knottenbelt. His claims of between 500 - 1000 and your own website suggests the numbers could be 'more than hundreds' seem to tally quite well, no?

Also I'm sure you are aware that Prof Knottenbelt is often involved in the diagnosis and treatment of equines without them being referred to Leahurst. Ask Liverpool how many horses with sarcoids they have through their doors in a year and the numbers probably won't be that high. Prof Knottenbelt treats hundreds of horses with sarcoids (at least) annually, done thorough photographs and communication with the owner's own vets. 

Also, I have no idea why you are now making up your own myths, although it sounds like a fun new task for the HHOers to join in with 

I'll start

Did you know that the mystery surrounding the Bermuda triangle is down to a rare, waterborne form of Ragwort? 

Did you know that if you dance round a ragwort plant in full flower at the time of a full moon you can cure syphilis? 

Did you know that if you make a potion containing ragwort seeds, unicorn horn, bat wings and frogs blood and give it to your OH, they will immediately rush out and buy you a new warmblood and shiny new horsebox? 

Is that the sort of thing you are looking for Esther, since obviously truth is not too important to your cause?


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## hairycob (27 June 2012)

Gosh Rhino - where can I get unicorn horn from. I can find all the other ingredients. Wanders off to choose colour of horsebox.


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## Fellewell (27 June 2012)

Myths eh

Pumas love ragwort, it's like catnip to them. They seek it out on windy nights so it's easier to inhale. 
Once the pumas have 'gorged' themselves with ragwort they become very sociable and spend the rest of the night plaiting horses manes (not very well obviously, big paws)
Unfortunately long term ragwort abuse leaves pumas photophobic, which is why you never see them in daylight.


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## Capriole (27 June 2012)

misterjay said:



			I don't know anyone who worries about horses inhaling the seeds, or rolling on ragwort. I've never, ever read about these being issues. 

Obviously, we all remove ragwort from our pastures, but inhaling the seeds, or skin absorbtion through rolling?? 

Has anyone ever heard of these 'issues'?
		
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No, it's a new one on me too.


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## rhino (27 June 2012)

hairycob said:



			Gosh Rhino - where can I get unicorn horn from. I can find all the other ingredients. Wanders off to choose colour of horsebox.
		
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I can provide some, if you would like to send $500 to my paypal account 



Fellewell said:



			Myths eh

Pumas love ragwort, it's like catnip to them. They seek it out on windy nights so it's easier to inhale. 
Once the pumas have 'gorged' themselves with ragwort they become very sociable and spend the rest of the night plaiting horses manes (not very well obviously, big paws)
Unfortunately long term ragwort abuse leaves pumas photophobic, which is why you never see them in daylight.
		
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Oh I like that one, and I'm sure Esther will too. That'll promote some hysteria I'm sure


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## pootleperkin (27 June 2012)

fatpiggy said:



			The research councils are very strapped for cash at the moment - almost all research is now on given themes, not the blue-skies funding that used to be available, and if it doesn't affect humans then they just aren't interested.
		
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I don't work in veterinary research (for which studies of this kind would come under), so don't know the state of funding at present, but I'm guessing backers like the Wellcome Trust will still be doling out grants - certainly there are grants still being given for veterinary projects such as aspects of EGS research. 

What I was getting at is it looks as if Esther and Co's research group might be rivals looking at European funding of some kind ('cos I doubt they apply for any UK based one), and so trying to knock the Liverpool groups' reputation, but as I said, I don't think a UK based equestrian forum is the place to be doing that effectively..... so why bother?

They are just (still) trying to make a storm out of a teacup. They are publishing in peer review journals, so I don't understand why that isn't enough for them. The whole raison d'etre of this thread remains somewhat a mystery to me, as it should be apparent to them that us Brits kind of know about ragwort and how to get rid of it isn't that taxing.


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## Kallibear (27 June 2012)

rhino said:



			Did you know that if you make a potion containing ragwort seeds, unicorn horn, bat wings and frogs blood and give it to your OH, they will immediately rush out and buy you a new warmblood and shiny new horsebox?
		
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What?! Really?! Barstewards never told me that! And now I've gone and pulled all my ragwort all three plants) and won't have seeds for at least another 2 years. Bugger. Where's the nearest field full or ragwort in Edinburgh?


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## rhino (27 June 2012)

Kallibear said:



			What?! Really?! Barstewards never told me that! And now I've gone and pulled all my ragwort all three plants) and won't have seeds for at least another 2 years. Bugger. Where's the nearest field full or ragwort in Edinburgh?
		
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I'm not sure, we certainly don't have any here (actually I lie, I found one 1st season plant last year)...


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## Fellewell (27 June 2012)

```
Oh I like that one, and I'm sure Esther will too. That'll promote some hysteria I'm sure :D[/QUOTE]
```
Yes she loves an exclamation mark does Esther. She actually used four when she congratulated me on being able to read

She and Nick are probably lobbying for the introduction of pumas (and more ragwort)to The Netherlands

What a double act

What's going on with my quotes?


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## Rosehip (28 June 2012)

I havent read all the replies because to be honest, I cant be bothered to read all Esters blah blah blah ragwort-love blah blah blah.... anyway, I dont profess to know anything about the toxicity of ragwort, but I do know that whilst sheep and other ruminants can consume 4 - 6 times their body weight in ragwort before it cases organ faliure and death, where as horses can oly tollerate 0.4% of their total body weight before the toxins cause organ failure and death....thats enough for me to erradicate it from not only my horse paddocks, but also from our stock paddocks too!


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## brighteyes (28 June 2012)

Mwahahahahaha - today's corpses. I make no apology whatsoever for this deliberate herbicde.


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## rhino (28 June 2012)

brighteyes said:



			Mwahahahahaha - today's corpses. I make no apology whatsoever for this deliberate herbicde.
		
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MURDERER!!!!!!!!!!!!​


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## brighteyes (28 June 2012)

rhino said:



MURDERER!!!!!!!!!!!!​

Click to expand...

I love my trusty Ragfork


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## rhino (28 June 2012)

brighteyes said:



			I love my trusty Ragfork   

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Ah, it was brighteyes... in the field... with a ragfork!  Case closed!


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## Dogstar (28 June 2012)

Big heartfelt round of applause for brighteyes


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## Capriole (28 June 2012)

I hope you were careful not to roll in it?


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## EstherHegt (28 June 2012)

Wow I looked for a moment at this discussion, , it is read 12,847 times, that is very much and only a handfull writers did respond ;-) I didn't wrote anonymous and have peer reviewed publications backup for what I wrote.


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## Alec Swan (28 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Wow I looked for a moment at this discussion, , it is read 12,847 times, that is very much and only a handfull writers did respond ;-) I didn't wrote anonymous and have peer reviewed publications backup for what I wrote.
		
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Peer reviewed?  By who?  Your peers?  They,  as you,  have little to recommend them.  Your attempts to belittle and denigrate a world respected research scientist,  was a very silly and basic mistake on your part.  

Alec.


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## smokey (28 June 2012)

Fellewell said:



			Myths eh

Pumas love ragwort, it's like catnip to them. They seek it out on windy nights so it's easier to inhale. 
Once the pumas have 'gorged' themselves with ragwort they become very sociable and spend the rest of the night plaiting horses manes (not very well obviously, big paws)
Unfortunately long term ragwort abuse leaves pumas photophobic, which is why you never see them in daylight.
		
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Love it, I guess that's why they have yellow eyes then!


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## EstherHegt (28 June 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Peer reviewed?  By who?  Your peers?  They,  as you,  have little to recommend them.  Your attempts to belittle and denigrate a world respected research scientist,  was a very silly and basic mistake on your part.  

Alec.
		
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Alec, I don't think you have read any of our website. This page is about how a PA intoxication works. Knottenbelt is not somebody who had publications about ragwort and toxocologie, it his his opininion, he is also not named in the EFSA report as a source. I can understand that you can't believe that, but there is worldwide a lot of peer reviewed information, look at pub med etc. I give one more time some sources we used, and we have a lot of advisors and co authors. Some are also named in the EFSA journal, I gave that link before. European Food Safety Authority. 2007. Opinion of the Scientific Panel on contaminants in the food chain on a request from the European Commission related to Pyrrolizidine alkaloids as undesirable substances in animal feed. The EFSA Journal 447: 1-51.

Look at this page, maybe you can see than what I am writing http://www.ragwort.org.uk/background-info/7-i/11-ragwort-poisoning-how-does-it-work
and the peer reviewed literature we used for this article about how ragwort posioning works. 

References:

(1) Schneider, D. 1987. The strange fate of pyrrolizidine alkaloids. In: Chapman, R. F., E. A. Bernays & J. G. Stoffolano (Eds.). Perspectives in
chemoreception and behavior: Springer, Berlin/Heidenberg. 123-142.
(2) Boppré, M. 1986. Insects pharmacophagously utilizing defensive plant chemicals (pyrrolizidine alkaloids). Naturwissenschaften 73: 17-26.
(3) Macel, M. 2003. On the evolution of the diversity of pyrrolizidine alkaloids. The role of insects as selective forces. Thesis Leiden University.
4) Giles, C. J. 1983. Outbreak of ragwort (_Senecio jacobaea_) poisoning in horses. Equine Veterinary Journal 15: 248-250.
(5) De Lanux-Van Gorder, V. 2000. Tansy ragwort poisoning in a horse in southern Ontario. Can. Vet. J. 41: 409- 410.
(6) Gardner, D. R., M. S. Thorne, R. J. Molyneux, J. A. Pfister & A. A. Seawrigh. 2006. Pyrrolizidine alkaloids in _Senecio madagascariensis_ from
Australia and Hawaii and assessment of possible livestock poisoning. Biochemical Systematics and Ecology 34: 736-744
(7) European Food Safety Authority. 2007. Opinion of the Scientific Panel on contaminants in the food chain on a request from the European Commission
related to Pyrrolizidine alkaloids as undesirable substances in animal feed. The EFSA Journal 447: 1-51.
(8) Bain, J. F. 1991. The biology of Canadian weeds. 96. _Senecio jacobaea_ L. Canadian Journal of Plant Science. 71: 127-140.
(9) Poole, A. L. & D. Cairns. 1940. Botanical aspects of Ragwort (_Senecio jacobaea L_.) control. Department of Scientific and Industrial Research
Bulletin 82: 2-61.
(10) Harper, J. L. & W. A. Wood. 1957. _Senecio jacobaea L_. The Journal of Ecology 45: 617-637.
(11) Cosyns, E. 2004. Ungulate seed dispersal. Aspects of endozoochory in a semi-natural landscape. Institute of Nature Conservation, Brussels.
(12) Dean R. E. & A. H. Winward. 1974. An investigation into the possibility of tansy ragwort poisoning of black- tailed deer. Journal of Wildlife
Diseases 10: 166-169.
(13) Candrian, U., J. Luthy, P. Schmid, Ch. Schlatter & E. Gallasz. 1984. Stability of pyrrolizidine alkaloids in hay and silage. J. Agric. Food Chem.
39: 930-933
(14) Goeger, D. E., P. R. Cheeke, J. A. Schmitz & D. R. Buhler. 1982. Toxicity of tansy ragwort (_Senecio jacobaea_) to goats. Am. J. Vet. Res.
43: 252-254.
(15) Molyneux R. J., Johnson, A. E.& L. D. Stuart. 1988. Delayed manifestation of Senecio-induced pyrrolizidine alkaloidosis in cattle: case
reports. Vet. Hum. Toxicol. 30: 201-205.
(16) Craig, A. M., E. G. Pearson, C. Meyer & J. A. Schmitz. 1991. Serum liver enzyme and histopathologic changes in calves with chronic and
chronic-delayed _Senecio jacobaea_ toxicosis. Am. J. Vet. Res. 52: 1969-1978.
(17) Odriozola, E., C. Campero, A. Casaro,T. Lopez, G. Olivieri & O. Melucci. 1994. Pyrrolizidine alkaloidosis in Argentinan cattle caused by
_Senecio selloi_. Vet. Hum. Tox. 36: 205-208.
(18) Johnson, A. E. & R. A. Smart 1983. Effects on cattle and their calves of tansy ragwort (_Senecio jacobaea_) fed in early gestation. Am. J. Vet.
Res. 44: 1215-1219
(19) Tilt, S.E. 1969. Ragwort toxicosis in a heifer. Can. Vet. J. 10: 302-306.
(20) Durham A. E., J. R. Newton,K. C. Smith, M. H. Hillyer, L. L. Hillyer, M. R. Smith, & C. M. Marr. 2003. Retrospective analysis of historical,
clinical, ultrasonographic, serum biochemical and haematological data in prognostic evaluation of equine liver disease. Equine Vet. J. 35: 542-547.
(21) DEFRA/AHT/BEVA. 2004. Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Engeland. Equine Quarterly Disease Surveillance Report. Pilot Issue:
Focus on equine liver disease 7-9.
(22) Vos, J. H., A. A. J. Geerts, J. W. Borgers, M. H. Mars, J. A. M. Muskens & L. A. van Wuijckhuise-Sjouke. 2002. Jacobskruiskruid: bedrieglijke
schoonheid. Tijdschr. Diergeneesk. 127: 753-756.
(23) Fu, P. P., Q. Xia, G. Lin & M. W. Chou. 2004. Pyrrolizidine alkaloids - Genotoxicity, metabolism enzymes, metabolic activation, and mechanisms. Drug
Metabolism Reviews 36: 1-55.
(24) Stewart, M. J. & V. Steenkamp. 2001. Pyrrolizidine poisoning: a neglected area in human toxicology. Therapeutic Drug Monitoring 23: 698-708
(25) Chojkier, M. 2003. Hepatic sinusoidal-obstruction syndrome: toxicity of pyrrolizidine alkaloids. Journal of Hepatology 39: 437-446.
(26) Czaja, M. 1998. Liver growth growth and repair. Chapman en Hall London. ISBN 0412 71260.
(27) Lessard, P., W. D. Wilson, H. J. Olander, Q. R. Rogers, & V. E. Mendel. 1986. Clinicopathologic study of horses surviving pyrrolizidine alkaloid
(Senecio vulgaris) toxicosis. Am. J. Vet. Res. 47: 1776-1780.
(28) Roeder, E. & Pflueger, T. (1995). Analysis of pyrrolizidine alkaloids: a competitive enzyme-linked immunoassay (ELISA) for the quantitative
determination of some toxic pyrrolizidine alkaloids. Nat. Toxins 3:305-309.


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## TrasaM (28 June 2012)

this discussion is just like ragworth.. You think it's gone but a week later it's back again. 

So what's the bottom line? Is it or is it not poisonous?


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## s4sugar (29 June 2012)

I haven't read your website but I have seen a horse (not mine) pts through eating ragwort in hay.

I will continue to remove any ragwort from my land and walked five acres today -removing just seven plants and spraying Roundup onto the roots. It has taken twenty years to get down single figures and I doubt I will ever eradicate it as on nearby council land it is unchecked.

I would love to see it become extinct here. The cinnabar moth can now be found around the world having been introduced to eat the noxious weed so it can live on abroad.


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## pootleperkin (29 June 2012)

Look Esther, we get it:

Ragwort is poisonous to different species at different levels.

If horses eat it little and often, then large scale liver necrosis is not caused, the liver will probably be compensated in one way or another and the horse will probably be ok.

If the horse eats lots of ragwort, then it might not be ok, as the liver will likely fail.

You are worried that we conclude that horses that have some sort of liver disease are mistakenly diagnosed with chronic ragwort poisoning, when you think they probably do not.

You think that the latter cases cause 'hysteria' about ragwort poisoning in the UK and that we believe in myths.

It doesn't.

We don't need to know all of the in's and out's of the poisoning process - it is irrelevant to how we responsible horse owners manage our fields, 'cos we just eliminate the risk! It's like talking about skin cancer to sunbed users - yes, the specialist wants to know how it is caused by such and such a pathway causing mutation of x and x.... but all the patient needs to know is that they shouldn't go on sunbeds as that is what causes the risk!! 

We know ragwort isn't good for any of our stock because of the underlying risk. It grows like wildfire over here due to the way the rural areas of the country are (or more usually, are not) managed.  It is impossible to tell if your animals eat it or not (though I know, not likely) if it is present in grazing land, so those of us who can look after our own pasture don't like to take the risk and kill it. 

Case closed. No hysteria. No myths that need to be dispelled. You are preaching to the converted. No need to keep banging on about Knottenbelt.


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## Kallibear (29 June 2012)

10pages later (40 depending on your settings  ) and I STILL don't get the _point _of this thread???! Is it just me?! 

So far the only thing that's been established (apart from EstherHegt and co being a bit weird, with a vendetta against Proffesor Knottenbelt) is that ragwort is bad for horses.

I knew that before I opened the thread a couple of weeks ago?!!


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## Moomin1 (29 June 2012)

I don't know the point in this entire conversation, because we all know that ragwort does (and I personally see it very often) pose a risk to horses.  Often it goes unnoticed through lack of symptoms (much like alcoholic liver damage) until it is very advanced.  Ten horses removed from sparse pasture over a year ago -  ALL had varying stages of liver disease, ranging from a very cautious prognosis to a very hopeful one.  Nevertheless, every one of them had liver damage due to being on sparse grazing with an average amount of ragwort, which the owner maintained he 'treated' each year. He clearly didn't. Some of these horses were emaciated or in very poor condition, others in ok condition.  The ones who had mild liver damage had only been on the pasture for approx one year.  Those horses appeared perfectly healthy on the outside, and it was only routine bloods which revealed the liver damage.  The ones who were badly damaged were emaciated, with extensive alopecia and anaemia, and they had been on the land approx 4-5 years.


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## Tnavas (29 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Ragwort is poisonous yes, but not for all animals, dogs and cats and humanns don't eat hay, sheep have  a different metabolism then horses, and are much more tolerant. A  horse don't eat fresh ragwort, n hay they don't taste it. Ask at the labs, ask by DEFRA how many animals died at ragwort. Ask them also how many at grass sickness or other poisonous plants. Try to look in perspective of the problem, are ther not bigger health problems, like neglect?
		
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Ragwort is a slow accumulative poison. Humans *can* be affected by the juices of ragwort pulled with bare hands.

Horses do eat it when it is alive and fresh when there is insufficient grazing available.

Horses that eat it in hay suffer - have seen it at one place I worked at - we had to spread out every slice of hay and check it for ragwort after several horses got sick. 

Sheep do eat the plant but only in the small rosette stage - here in NZ in sheep country you rarely see ragwort because the sheep eat it when it is small. In the Dairy areas though ragwort grows to large plants.

I think the governments have plenty of research on their side - if it is against the law to have Ragwort then it must have been proven to be a problem

It is sad that the Cinnebar moth likes to live off ragwort but as ragwort wasn't introduced to UK until 1690 the moth is also not a native to UK. The moth has also been introduced to NZ to help control the weed.

Ragwort has no purpose and reduces grazing availability

The plant is a pain in the butt weed and any sensible person will ensure its safe and permenant removal from their paddocks.


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## Tnavas (29 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			you can also create hysteria, and that is what happens in UK.
		
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NO definately not - just total common sense approach - if it is poisonous - remove it!

PS - I'm originally from UK and in the early 60's we were advised then to pull up the ragwort. - Nothing has changed!

To be honest I think you are more hysterical about Ragwort than the whole HH community. This is not the first time you have been on this site spouting the same information.


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## Tnavas (29 June 2012)

touchstone said:



			Regarding the 'ragwort video', I've never taken such measures when pulling ragwort and I don't know anyone who does.

When spraying toxic herbicides as shown in the video it may well be a recommendation to wear protective clothing.

I'd rather err on the side of caution where ragwort is concerned, not through hysteria or inaccuracies, but because I value my horse and would rather not take the risk, whether exaggerated or not.

Pregnant women were once told that an anti sickness drug called thalidamide was safe to take, and look how that turned out.
		
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The video was hilarious - if it was taken to protect the person from Ragwort

BUT

perfectly sensible if protecting yourself from the herbaside.

My old boss of many years ago ended up in hospital with what appeared to be a heart attack yet there was no signs that would have been expected in his blood tests for a heart attack. Further tests revealed high levels of various chemicals used on the fruit orchard he owned. He had always worn protective clothing and the tractor with the booms on it was covered when spraying. Despite the precautions he still had a very dangerous reaction.

Something that was said to me many years ago

"You don't have to find out everything by personal experience!" Other people have lost horses from eating Ragwort - I don't need mine to die to understand that it is best got rid of.


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## hairycob (29 June 2012)

I'm still confused about what we are meant to change. I have asked twice & not had an answer.
For the timebeing, at this time of year, I shall continue to spend a few minutes each day clearing ragwort from my winter field. Summer field luckily only gets a couple of plants a year that get dug up as soon as I spot them.


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## Tnavas (29 June 2012)

Hi Hairy cob - someones awake in UK - I'm not sure either what we are meant to do either!

Just read that ragwort when grazed can become an annual plant so flowering in the first year.

I shall continue to pull the 'Evil Yellow One' from my pasture.


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## Fellewell (29 June 2012)

smokey said:



			Love it, I guess that's why they have yellow eyes then! 

Click to expand...

That'll be the liver damage, if pumas didn't love ragwort so much we'd be falling over them

There's lots of info on ragwort in the kids section of Jul/Aug BHS mag. What's Esther going to say about us indoctrinating our children (another website link I shouldn't wonder)


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## hest (29 June 2012)

Have sat on my hands long enough. 

I don't often get involved in threads like this, but this one shows academia at its worst: 

A group of researchers appear to be attempting to besmirch the work of another peer under the thinly-veiled guise of 'helping' the horsey public and doing them all a favour by 're-educating' them for once and all about ragwort.

Allegations of a smear-campaign are defended by the 'here are the references,  you can't argue with them' approach. Cue long lists of sources, most of which are very old (and surely therefore obselete, particularly in scientific research).  

You are entitled to your opinion so, if I were in Dutch shoes (or should that be clogs), I would stick to questioning Prof K's published research (but not annecdotal evidence) in peer-reviewed articles.

Yes, I would also challenge him politely during 'any questions' at conferences or seminars if I felt the need. 

But linking him to myths and hysteria in this back-handed manner on a forum is highly unprofessional IMO and, if you any of you are chasing funding at the moment, you may find that this sort of approach is not doing any of you any favours in the long run.


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## pootleperkin (29 June 2012)

Exactly my thoughts Hest - loved the way Esther listed an arms length list of references to back up her 'peer review' papers - however, the point was that we were talking about her group's *new* peer review research, not the literature in general.

It seems their group are running with their own agenda, trying to put a spin on a subject which has, in terms of risk management, essentially been put to bed, in the hope of keeping funding going. 

As said before, if they want to continue in this vein, then they need to see if they can keep publishing and presenting their message at conferences, not banging on about it here. I'm guessing Esther is working on her doctorate - I just hope that she hasn't been lead astray too far by her supervisors and become too polemic.


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## Dirtymare (29 June 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			Look Esther, we get it:

Ragwort is poisonous to different species at different levels.

If horses eat it little and often, then large scale liver necrosis is not caused, the liver will probably be compensated in one way or another and the horse will probably be ok.

If the horse eats lots of ragwort, then it might not be ok, as the liver will likely fail.

You are worried that we conclude that horses that have some sort of liver disease are mistakenly diagnosed with chronic ragwort poisoning, when you think they probably do not.

You think that the latter cases cause 'hysteria' about ragwort poisoning in the UK and that we believe in myths.

It doesn't.

We don't need to know all of the in's and out's of the poisoning process - it is irrelevant to how we responsible horse owners manage our fields, 'cos we just eliminate the risk! It's like talking about skin cancer to sunbed users - yes, the specialist wants to know how it is caused by such and such a pathway causing mutation of x and x.... but all the patient needs to know is that they shouldn't go on sunbeds as that is what causes the risk!! 

We know ragwort isn't good for any of our stock because of the underlying risk. It grows like wildfire over here due to the way the rural areas of the country are (or more usually, are not) managed.  It is impossible to tell if your animals eat it or not (though I know, not likely) if it is present in grazing land, so those of us who can look after our own pasture don't like to take the risk and kill it. 

Case closed. No hysteria. No myths that need to be dispelled. You are preaching to the converted. No need to keep banging on about Knottenbelt.
		
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This is very well written. I totally agree.


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## hest (29 June 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			I'm guessing Esther is working on her doctorate - I just hope that she hasn't been lead astray too far by her supervisors and become too polemic.
		
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If Ester is indeed working on her doctorate then I hope for her sake that no one on her viva panel is a friend or associate of Prof K


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## pootleperkin (29 June 2012)

Hest, I'm guessing that as in most of Europe, that if she is doing her doctorate, she won't have a viva with two opponents, but an open, public defence of her thesis. Should we give the Prof. the nod to go across and watch? Anyone can join in with the questioning


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## hest (29 June 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			Hest, I'm guessing that as in most of Europe, that if she is doing her doctorate, she won't have a viva with two opponents, but an open, public defence of her thesis. Should we give the Prof. the nod to go across and watch? Anyone can join in with the questioning 

Click to expand...

LOL! 

If he's busy, Rhino could go in his place - there's no flies on her!


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## Circe (29 June 2012)

smokey said:



			Love it, I guess that's why they have yellow eyes then! 

Click to expand...

Yes, unfortunately most pumas have bad jaundice from the liver damage caused by the ragwort. Its very sad.
Kx


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## hairycob (29 June 2012)

Just had a quick look again at the list of peer reviewed papers & I'm pretty sure, that along with most horse owners, I will have them in that big pile of "must reads" by the side of my bed. I really must get round to reading them sometime - trouble is I won't have time until after I have perfected my PSG tests & am jumping 1.30 tracks.


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## pootleperkin (29 June 2012)

hairycob said:



			Just had a quick look again at the list of peer reviewed papers & I'm pretty sure, that along with most horse owners, I will have them in that big pile of "must reads" by the side of my bed. I really must get round to reading them sometime - trouble is I won't have time until after I have perfected my PSG tests & am jumping 1.30 tracks.
		
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## RagwortFacts (29 June 2012)

Tnavas said:



			Ragwort is a slow accumulative poison. Humans *can* be affected by the juices of ragwort pulled with bare hands.
		
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As someone who has lurked through this thread and who has been studying ragwort for many years I just have to come in here. I am shocked at the level of ignorance, the bad thinking and illogical statements and the level of toxic, xenophobic bullying. 
I too come from a nation where English is not the native language and this kind of thing should simply not be acceptable to decent people. 

Esther said there were a lot of myths and there are! This thread shows people repeating them and repeating them time and time again. 


* Let's be clear about this one. It has been looked at by one of the greatest experts on ragwort in the world. He actually has a Phd specifically on this plant,  Dr Pieter Pelser and this is what he wrote with Dutch expert Esther Hegt.  
 
"Through our research about the sources of the reports on the danger of touching ragwort, we conclude that there is no substantial evidence that there is a health risk for people. The amount of pyrrolizidine alkaloids that might be absorbed through the skin is very low and there is no proof that these alkaloids are being changed into a toxic form."
* 

All sorts of things might be claimed. Someone might claim there is a teapot in orbit around the moon, but we do not accept things in science without * evidence. * 

The experts on the biochemistry of ragwort, whose work I have read seem to entirely confirm the statement by these two experts. 




			I think the governments have plenty of research on their side - if it is against the law to have Ragwort then it must have been proven to be a problem
		
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Just because somone in the government says something doesn't mean it is true. That argument is very bad thinking and is an example of one of the oldest and best known logical fallacies, "Arguement  from Authority".  It is also the case that it is a myth that ragwort is against the law in the UK. 
 Last year a British Horse Society joint leaflet was stopped by the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) for making a similar kind of claim. 




			It is sad that the Cinnebar (sic) moth likes to live off ragwort but as ragwort wasn't introduced to UK until 1690 the moth is also not a native to UK.
		
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This is * another myth. *. Both the Cinnabar Moth and Ragwort are native species in the UK.  

The ecological issues aren't mainly about the Cinnabar Moth anyway and we have seen a crowd of people queueing up to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of ecology. 

The truth is that there are many myths about ragwort and they have led when repeated to the the ASA acting.  The ASA do not have a particular axe to grind they just insist that advertisers must have proof for their claims. 
So companies advertising thousands of horse deaths must have evidence. They didn't so they have had to stop making the claims. 

I will give you some  evidence. If you make a Freedom of Information Request to Liverpool University and ask them about liver damage and horse deaths. This is the kind of information you will get. Over the  5 year period 2006-2010 it seems they did indeed record a number of horses with liver disease, however it seems that* they did not record a single example of it being due to ragwort poisoning. NOT ONE!* 

I'll give you a list of the myths here.Ragwort Myths 
But unfortunately there are people who will still be "true believers" in them  never how hard experts try to debunk them. It is rather like the people who believe in many daft ideas like 9/11 being a government conspiracy, or the Queen being a drug dealer, or a lizard in disguise. Some people will believe anything. 

Esther Hegt is actually highly intelligent. She is well known as an expert in her own country. Her English isn't perfect, but frankly there seem to have  been some rather rude people here who seem to have been feigning lack of comprehension just for effect.


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## rhino (29 June 2012)

RagwortFacts said:



			"Through our research about the sources of the reports on the danger of touching ragwort, we conclude that there is no substantial evidence that there is a health risk for people. The amount of pyrrolizidine alkaloids that might be absorbed through the skin is very low and there is no proof that these alkaloids are being changed into a toxic form."


'No substantial evidence', 'might' and 'no proof' are not conclusive. Sorry. We've repeatedly asked for proof, it is not forthcoming.

All sorts of things might be claimed. Someone might claim there is a teapot in orbit around the moon, but we do not accept things in science without * evidence. * 

So give us evidence for what you are saying. So far several requests have been denied or ignored.

The experts on the biochemistry of ragwort, whose work I have read seem to entirely confirm the statement by these two experts. 

Are you a qualified Biochemist? I am. Also, could you tell us Esther's professional credentials, as she is commonly referred to as a 'keen horseowner' which does not make her an 'expert' in any way...

The ASA do not have a particular axe to grind they just insist that advertisers must have proof for their claims. 
So companies advertising thousands of horse deaths must have evidence. They didn't so they have had to stop making the claims. 

Yet you cannot prove that this number is false. Post mortems are extremely uncommon in the UK. This has been said repeatedly on this thread.

I will give you some  evidence. If you make a Freedom of Information Request to Liverpool University and ask them about liver damage and horse deaths. This is the kind of information you will get. Over the  5 year period 2006-2010 it seems they did indeed record a number of horses with liver disease, however it seems that* they did not record a single example of it being due to ragwort poisoning. NOT ONE!* 

I have already explained that Prof Knottenbelt arranges treatment for many hundreds of horses a year, that are never referred to Leahurst. Yet again more attempts to discredit someone, with no evidence of malpractice


Esther Hegt is actually highly intelligent. She is well known as an expert in her own country.
		
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Highly intelligent? Possibly, but she seems to be completely unable to answer simple questions put to her. As a result of this, I feel completely justified in not believing anything she says, as the oft requested 'evidence' is not forthcoming. 

Lots of people are self proclaimed 'experts'. Generally it means nothing, other than they feel they can dictate to others how they should be thinking or acting.


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## Alec Swan (29 June 2012)

RagwortFacts,  I don't suppose that with Esther,  you have any collective experience of cats,  do you?  If you do,  there's another stupid thread which would benefit from your input.  Go on,  give it a go,  you'll fit in a treat! 

Alec.


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## smokey (29 June 2012)

Lol Alec!:


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## cptrayes (29 June 2012)

RagwortFacts said:



			I am shocked at the level of ignorance, the bad thinking and illogical statements and the level of toxic, xenophobic bullying.
		
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I object to this statement. The two non native speakers were warned politely many times that their less than fluent use of English phrases was unintentionally (at first) offensive to native speakers and they chose to continue to insult us with their use of our language. Many of us acknowledged how good their English was, but it was not good enough to come on a foreign language website and lecture the people of that country. Having been warned about the offence they were causing, they continued in the full knowledge of that offence, which is downright rude.

Not only that but they also chose to insult us by accusing us of not knowing how to manage our own pastures and our own horses.

They made repeated statements which were incorrect and others which could not be substantiated.


As for the rest of what you have written, it is, can we repeat for the umpteenth time

COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT.

Ragwort is poisonous.
We manage it fine.
There is no hysteria in this country though there has been plenty from Nick and Ester on this thread.

PLEASE go away and worry about something more imporant than ragwort in the UK, like why the Dutch have been so slow to implement the EU pig welfare standards.


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## rhino (29 June 2012)

Esther and co.

Can you prove conclusively that handling ragwort carries no risk? No.
Can you prove conclusively how many horses die in the UK per annum as a direct result of ragwort poisoning? No.

Polite suggestion; go away and find out. Get your results published. Then come back and we can actually have a reasonable discussion.

Until that point, no-one knows, and in that case I find it perfectly reasonable for horse owners to (a) prevent their stock coming into contact with it, and (b) take sensible precautions - eg. wearing gloves - when handling it.


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## cptrayes (29 June 2012)

While we are talking about rudeness, Ragwort-facts, are you anything to do with the blog entry containing this description of HHO members?




			Unfortunately, this intelligent woman is casting pearls before swine on that forum. There are  some there who are  "True Believers" in the hysteria and who dismiss her out of hand. I know the regular scientific readers of this blog will be holding their heads  in horror as a time after time one   ignoramus after another  repeats the endless ragwort myths and uses poor cognitive skills to do so. Ignoramus is the word all right. It comes from a the name of a  character in a play and means "we don't know" in Latin.
		
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From http://ragwort-hysteria.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/mob-mentality-of-true-believers.html


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## EAST KENT (29 June 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			RagwortFacts,  I don't suppose that with Esther,  you have any collective experience of cats,  do you?  If you do,  there's another stupid thread which would benefit from your input.  Go on,  give it a go,  you'll fit in a treat! 

Alec. 

Click to expand...

You`re SO bad    surprised you lot are still at though.


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## rhino (29 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			While we are talking about rudeness, Ragwort-facts, are you anything to do with the blog entry containing this description of HHO members?




From http://ragwort-hysteria.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/mob-mentality-of-true-believers.html

Click to expand...

I believe so, previous blog posts have mentioned HHO by name... They really don't engender any confidence in them as scientific professionals, do they?


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## Alec Swan (29 June 2012)

RagwortFacts said:



			........

* Let's be clear about this one. .......
 
"Through our research about the sources of the reports on the danger of touching ragwort, we conclude that there is no substantial evidence that there is a health risk for people. .......
* 

.......
		
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So let's be clear about this,  "No substantial evidence" is proof that the weed doesn't pose a threat to humans?  Really?  Is this being offered as a reasoned form of argument in a debate?

Your potted theories do little to recommend you,  or your countrymen and their equally half baked arguments.

Now then,  Cats and kittens,  and the UK breeding policies.  If that's gone over your head,  check in Soapbox,  I feel sure that your input would be of very real value. 

Alec.


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## Mrs B (29 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			While we are talking about rudeness, Ragwort-facts, are you anything to do with the blog entry containing this description of HHO members?




From http://ragwort-hysteria.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/mob-mentality-of-true-believers.html

Click to expand...

Noooooo! Let them carry on believing that we're a bunch of ignorant hicks who wave pitchforks and torches at things we don't understand and need to be educated about the legitimacy or otherwise of Ragwort Myths and Legends, then maybe, just maybe, they'll give up and go away...


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## cptrayes (29 June 2012)

rhino said:



			I believe so, previous blog posts have mentioned HHO by name... They really don't engender any confidence in them as scientific professionals, do they? 

Click to expand...

Writing as a non-scientist with a pretty good understanding of scientfic method, Rhino, I suspect you are as amused as I am by the incredibly bad science written on both the blog and in many of the Ragwort-trio's posts on this thread.

Ragwort poisons through the stomach and therefore can't poison through the skin? About as sensible as saying tobacco causes cancer by being burnt and inhaled and therefore can't cause cancer by being chewed. Go tell that to the people with mouth cancer in the US where chewing tobacco is common  

The blog states that 




			the international consensus is that ragwort poisoning  is quite  rare.
		
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 when of course no-one knows how rare it is because they don't know how many horses that die of liver failure have it due to ragwort ingestion.  Liver failure is not rare at all and for all we know every single case could have been caused by ragwort ingestion, because it wasn't caused by chronic alcoholism, was it   ? Their statement has no scientific validity whatsoever. 


But we aren't going to be able to persuade them, are we? the best we can hope for is that some time they will get bored and go and play somewhere else.


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## hest (29 June 2012)

Esther and co: 

Carry on growing your dense sward for your horses and pull out what ragwort remains with your bare hands. 

You are entitled to believe what you want to, and to pursue what research avenue you want to. 

It is the manner in which you attempt to get your point of view across which I object most strongly too. And this has nothing to do with the language barrier.


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## rhino (29 June 2012)

Finally some things I can agree with Esther on, from yet another forum where she has been attempting to 'educate' the public.




			Everything that is published on the web should be regarded with skepticism, because everybody can create a website these days and everybody claims to be an expert.
		
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 I remember saying something similar on this thread 




			Ragwort is smarter then we are.
		
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Than you perhaps, most UK horse owners seem to manage it just fine


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## RagwortFacts (30 June 2012)

rhino said:



			.
		
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Your logic and science appear absolutely abysmally bad to me. You do not seem to be applying any knowledge of the scientific method that I think any proper educational institution would teach. This seems to be to be an  utterly dreadful example of ignorance of the fundamental basics of science. Frankly, you don't seem to have the slightest clue of how scientific arguments work.
Or are you trolling for responses?

You say




			'No substantial evidence', 'might' and 'no proof' are not conclusive. Sorry. We've repeatedly asked for proof, it is not forthcoming.

Yet you cannot prove that this number is false.
		
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It seems to me that you consistently repeat a well known fallacy. This is not something that I would expect from anyone with a good scientific education.
You  seem to consistently support ideas which have no evidence and then say that it  is OK to do it. You seem to be implying that anyone can make any silly claim and it must then be true because nobody can show that it isn't. This is patently absurd.


The burden of proof lies with someone who is making a claim, and is not upon anyone else to disprove. The inability, or disinclination, to disprove a claim does not render that claim valid, nor give it any credence whatsoever. This is a fundamental part of the philosophy of logic and a critical element of the scientific method. 
You do not seem to have the slightest clue about what you are talking about with regards to logic, proofs or the scientific method.




			I have already explained that Prof Knottenbelt arranges treatment for many hundreds of horses a year, that are never referred to Leahurst. Yet again more attempts to discredit someone, with no evidence of malpractice
		
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I said nothing about Professor Knottenbelt. I have don't know precisely where he fits in to the statistics I quoted. I am sure he has quite a lot of expertese as a vet.Unlike some people here, I do actually understand about proof and evidence so I don't 
mention things when I don't have evidence. Unfortunately this seems to be yet another case of your jumping to unwarranted conclusions.




			Highly intelligent? Possibly, but she seems to be completely unable to answer simple questions put to her. As a result of this, I feel completely justified in not believing anything she says, as the oft requested 'evidence' is not forthcoming.
		
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It seems to me that no intelligent person would try to reply to your requests. 
The burden of proof actually lies with YOU. It would seem that this would be known to anyone with a proper knowledge of the scientific method and that you are actually asking nonsensical questions. Intelligent people don't tend to listen to people who awsk nonsensical questions.


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## rhino (30 June 2012)

RagwortFacts said:



			Your logic and science appear absolutely abysmally bad to me. You do not seem to be applying any knowledge of the scientific method that I think any proper educational institution would teach. This seems to be to be an  utterly dreadful example of ignorance of the fundamental basics of science. Frankly, you don't seem to have the slightest clue of how scientific arguments work.
Or are you trolling for responses?

*snorts* You're funny. And your qualifications were.... Any peer reviewed studies you could link for me to read?

You say

It seems to me that you consistently repeat a well known fallacy. What fallacy? Show me one thing I have said on this thread that has been disproven.This is not something that I would expect from anyone with a good scientific education.
You  seem to consistently support ideas which have no evidence and then say that it  is OK to do it. You seem to be implying that anyone can make any silly claim and it must then be true because nobody can show that it isn't. This is patently absurd.

No, I support no ideas without proof, but in the case of something which could potentially cause risk, and there is no proof to the contrary, then better safe than sorry. 


The burden of proof lies with someone who is making a claim, and is not upon anyone else to disprove. The inability, or disinclination, to disprove a claim does not render that claim valid, nor give it any credence whatsoever. This is a fundamental part of the philosophy of logic and a critical element of the scientific method. 
You do not seem to have the slightest clue about what you are talking about with regards to logic, proofs or the scientific method.

Oh I have plenty of 'clue', and the only claims I have seen have come from you and your friends. I see nothing but _estimates_, clearly marketed as such, which you are unable to either prove or disprove. 

I said nothing about Professor Knottenbelt. Well Prof. Knottenbelt is the main researcher on ragwort at Leahurst so it's not too much of a jump from quoting FOI requests at Leahurst due to ragwort poisoning...I have don't know precisely where he fits in to the statistics I quoted. I am sure he has quite a lot of expertese as a vet.Unlike some people here, I do actually understand about proof and evidence so I don't mention things when I don't have evidence. Fantastic. Where is your evidence then? Unfortunately this seems to be yet another case of your jumping to unwarranted conclusions.

What conclusion have I made? That we don't have enough information to know either way?

It seems to me that no intelligent person would try to reply to your requests. 
The burden of proof actually lies with YOU. It would seem that this would be known to anyone with a proper knowledge of the scientific method and that you are actually asking nonsensical questions. Intelligent people don't tend to listen to people who awsk nonsensical questions.
		
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Not nonsensical questions at all, and questions I'd expect any intelligent person with any degree of scientific background to be able to answer. 

So, Ragwort*Facts*, what *facts* have been brought to the table on this thread? None as far as most of us can see. The burden of proof most certainly does *not* lie with me, if you choose to come on to a public forum you have to accept you will be questioned, there is nothing to be gained from glibly accepting everything said on here . Conjecture, hearsay, that's all I've been reading. I've yet to see a single piece of evidence to support the claims being made...


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## RagwortFacts (30 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			But the myths that you are so hysterical about do no harm whatsoever Esther.
		
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Cptrayes. Is that [content removed]?  If so you seem to be rather an excellent horsewoman.
Unfortunately your grasp of logic or consequences doesn't seem so good.

I can think of plenty of harm that can be done by these myths. 

Horses may be harmed by vets thinking that ragwort poisoning is commoner than it is.
We know from the literature published around the world that liver damage is frequently not caused by ragwort even when it may originally be thought it was. Horses may therefore be misdiagnosed and not treated properly.

Horses may be harmed because more effort is put into the ragwort problem than to more serious issues.

People may be harmed by wasting their money on unnecessary controls.

People may be harmed because their businesses suffer reputational harm because they have published something incorrect that they picked up on a forum or in a magazine.

People may be harmed because they write to newspapers and are then ridiculed by people who really know what they are talking about replying.

People may have their adverts banned by the Advertising Standards Authority who adhere to proper scientific protocols and demand that claims made are supported by evidence. Not by "Horse and Hound  forum logic"  which seems to say you can make any  daft claim you like as long as nobody can produce the obviously non-existent evidence needed  to disprove it.

They may be prosecuted, as making false unsubstantiable claims can be against consumer protection legislation.

Someone may suffer psychological harm, because they heard about the skin-absorption myth like the terrified young teenage girl who contacted a ragwort expert because she had handled ragwort and thought she was going to die.

Someone may suffer loss in their work or professional standing because they come to a forum like this and, like many do on this forum, talk utter rubbish. They could get sacked from  jobs or never get interviews or suffer loss of pay rises. 

Their bosses or peers may have proper training in science and logic and recognise the irrational twaddle for what it really is. There really are some people in this forum who show personality traits through their arguement style which can be associated  with identifiable traits known from the scientific literature to be associated with poor cognitive performance.
They may read this forum and decide they don't want to employ some of the "thickos"


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## Queenbee (30 June 2012)

Dear RW,
Point 1 you are absolutely correct, just because ester, nick and yourself say your view is the truth... Doesn't make it so.

Point 2: if you can tell me that removing ragwort from a field is actually more dangerous for horses than leaving it in the field, I'd happily hear your argument, but as far as I can see removing it only harms the caterpillars, and since I don't give a flying toss about caterpillars... If it ever appears in my field I will remove it.

Point 3: your written English is excellent, far easier to see the points that you are trying to make...  But I still don't get them... Perhaps you could try typing them in bold or italics, maybe a picture or two... I'm sure that will have me hugging ragwort and talking to it in no time.

Point 4: I'm not sure if anyone has ever told you not to tick off a rhino before... Well they generally trample the hell out of you. And they are actually very intelligent. 

Finally back to my original point (point 1) you tell us that just because we are told by an expert that RW is bad, we shouldn't just accept this as fact. Why then do you expect us to accept the belief that it isn't poisonous as fact? You going to make your horse eat some every day and test it's liver function at intervals to prove your claim or do even you have doubts about its safety?! Or perhaps you could use a lovely essence of ragwort body cream every day for a year and tell us the results?

I honestly don't get why the hell Any of you care what we do over here as long as we are not endangering our horses it's none of your damn business!!!!!


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## Moomin1 (30 June 2012)

RagwortFacts said:



			Cptrayes. Is that [content removed]?  If so you seem to be rather an excellent horsewoman.
Unfortunately your grasp of logic or consequences doesn't seem so good.

I can think of plenty of harm that can be done by these myths. 

Horses may be harmed by vets thinking that ragwort poisoning is commoner than it is.
We know from the literature published around the world that liver damage is frequently not caused by ragwort even when it may originally be thought it was. Horses may therefore be misdiagnosed and not treated properly.

Horses may be harmed because more effort is put into the ragwort problem than to more serious issues.

People may be harmed by wasting their money on unnecessary controls.

People may be harmed because their businesses suffer reputational harm because they have published something incorrect that they picked up on a forum or in a magazine.

People may be harmed because they write to newspapers and are then ridiculed by people who really know what they are talking about replying.

People may have their adverts banned by the Advertising Standards Authority who adhere to proper scientific protocols and demand that claims made are supported by evidence. Not by "Horse and Hound  forum logic"  which seems to say you can make any  daft claim you like as long as nobody can produce the obviously non-existent evidence needed  to disprove it.

They may be prosecuted, as making false unsubstantiable claims can be against consumer protection legislation.

Someone may suffer psychological harm, because they heard about the skin-absorption myth like the terrified young teenage girl who contacted a ragwort expert because she had handled ragwort and thought she was going to die.

Someone may suffer loss in their work or professional standing because they come to a forum like this and, like many do on this forum, talk utter rubbish. They could get sacked from  jobs or never get interviews or suffer loss of pay rises. 

Their bosses or peers may have proper training in science and logic and recognise the irrational twaddle for what it really is. There really are some people in this forum who show personality traits through their arguement style which can be associated  with identifiable traits known from the scientific literature to be associated with poor cognitive performance.
They may read this forum and decide they don't want to employ some of the "thickos"
		
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What a lovely person you sound.  How about taking your face for a .....


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## pootleperkin (30 June 2012)

RagwortFacts said:



			Cptrayes. Is that [content removed]?  If so you seem to be rather an excellent horsewoman.
Unfortunately your grasp of logic or consequences doesn't seem so good.

I can think of plenty of harm that can be done by these myths. 

 Horses may be harmed by vets thinking that ragwort poisoning is commoner than it is.
We know from the literature published around the world that liver damage is frequently not caused by ragwort even when it may originally be thought it was. Horses may therefore be misdiagnosed and not treated properly. 


Horses may be harmed because more effort is put into the ragwort problem than to more serious issues.

People may be harmed by wasting their money on unnecessary controls.

 People may be harmed because their businesses suffer reputational harm because they have published something incorrect that they picked up on a forum or in a magazine.

People may be harmed because they write to newspapers and are then ridiculed by people who really know what they are talking about replying.

 People may have their adverts banned by the Advertising Standards Authority who adhere to proper scientific protocols and demand that claims made are supported by evidence. Not by "Horse and Hound  forum logic"  which seems to say you can make any  daft claim you like as long as nobody can produce the obviously non-existent evidence needed  to disprove it.

 They may be prosecuted, as making false unsubstantiable claims can be against consumer protection legislation.

 Someone may suffer psychological harm, because they heard about the skin-absorption myth like the terrified young teenage girl who contacted a ragwort expert because she had handled ragwort and thought she was going to die.

Someone may suffer loss in their work or professional standing because they come to a forum like this and, like many do on this forum, talk utter rubbish. They could get sacked from  jobs or never get interviews or suffer loss of pay rises. 

Their bosses or peers may have proper training in science and logic and recognise the irrational twaddle for what it really is. There really are some people in this forum who show personality traits through their arguement style which can be associated  with identifiable traits known from the scientific literature to be associated with poor cognitive performance.
They may read this forum and decide they don't want to employ some of the "thickos"
		
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Wow, you are getting a little worrying.....the final couple of paragraphs are quite telling of YOUR personality traits I would say, not pleasant and quite vitriolic. 

Given everything that has gone before, and how much we have been bashed over the head to get the (well hidden) message about the 'myths', I think the main thing to say here is that when finally someone explains what their main worries are in terms of consequences over people believing these 'myths', it's noteable that the consequences aren't very far reaching, and that your definition of 'harmed' is tenous to say the least - I am not going to be 'harmed' financially by buying a ragwort fork, or having my field sprayed for weeds. Some of the points might make people peeved rather than harmed, or businesses might have to pull an advert - big deal. You honestly think that someone is going to be refused an interview because they posted a comment on here saying that they are going to continue to pull ragwort out of their field until they see irrefutable evidence that it is safe? Nor is a potential employer going to trawl through these posts to read an argument on logic and scientific method between a couple of anonymous posters, just because they might be their future employee. Get real. They'll go to Facebook to dig their dirt . Plus, you are particularly scathing about these people - what do you care? Surely if they are weeded out of their workplace, that would make you happy?

You guys seem to be self-perpertuating your second point on harming horses because of the effort put into ragwort. I agree - you should be off doing something better with your time (I know I should be). You seem to be awfully het up about this on behalf of such a small problem.

The main problem is you are trying to preach to the wrong audience - and then are getting upset when people don't see the point of your argument. It's simple, most of these 'problems' that you point out simply don't apply to the gen pop at HHO. They apply to vets, who hopefully read the scientific literature, and to businesses, who should know better than to print unsubstantiated facts and make sure they get access to current opinions.

 If you want to educate, you put forward a clear and concise thesis on what the problem is - crucially, the problem has to be applicable to those you are trying to reach. You don't tell people they believe in myths and are steeped in hysteria if you want to reach them. I would say that the amount of (sometimes) confused replies that have been posted in response to this topic is due mainly to the inability of the original poster, Esther, to be able to express her 'worries' clearly and concisely - and I don't mean that she is unable to do so because English is her second language, just that she was incapable. She couldn't get the point across that you guys think that ragwort is less of a problem than might be generally believed and consequentially, a small population of businesses and individuals might be brought to task, or suffer an inconvenience for not being up to date with current knowledge (always assuming the research you are basing your arguments on is good  peer review can be flawed....). The question over veterinary diagnosis is moot; I agree that if the cause of a condition is not correctly identified early on in the disease, then avoidable mistakes might be made and the consequences may be poor. However, if an animal already has severe liver disease and the damage is irreversible, then the cause becomes irrelevant. In addition, most vets will invoke Occam's Razor: if a horse is stood in a field with poor pasture and lots of ragwort and the owner reports this has been the case for many years, then you go figure what the likely cause of its liver disease is.....

As we have repeated, many times, for most normal, busy people, looking after their horses day to day, to tell them that yes, ragwort can be poisonous, but you don't need to worry about it because it is only poisonous if your horse eats lots of it, the message just doesn't scan. People don't have the time or the inclination for it to scan. It's like telling a mother that 'yes, bleach is dangerous to little Billy, but only if he drinks the whole bottle, so you'll be fine so long as you make sure he doesn't drink it all'. How about you put it on the top shelf and remove the risk? That's what people will continue to do, with little impact on the ragwort population in the UK for Esther and Co to get worried about, until someone comes along and says, hey, we have irrefutable evidence that ragwort is not toxic to your Neds, and that's obviously not going to happen.


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## hairycob (30 June 2012)

Ragwort facts

Every morning this week I have spent 10-15 minutes digging ragwort out of my winter field. In the 4 summers I have been using that field no ragwort has been allowed to flower, let alone seed, in or adjacent to it. My summer field only gets the occasional plant which is dug up as soon as I see it. I am now on top of that field & will just monitor on a weekly basis. I suspect my experience is pretty average although, sadly, I don't have any peer reviewed papers to back that up.

Esther & co keep coming on here telling us we are hysterical & manage our pasture all wrong, but do not, despite us asking for clear recommendations, make any sensible suggestions.
Bearing in mind that all of the horses on my yard are good doers currently needing to be strip grazed with the majority being cobs/native x, what do you suggest? What can you recommend that will save me time/money & improve my horses welfare. I bought my ragfork 5 or 6 years ago, other than that I spend £0 p.a.

Are you saying I should just leave the ragwort there? The suggestion from one of our Dutch friends appeared to be that unless you could guarantee that your pasture was always ragwort free you shouldn't have a horse. I did twice ask if that was really what he meant because it would be easy for him to say something misleading in English, but the question was ignored.

By the way, I'm an extremely intelligent person too, so if the point isn't getting across to me it's not being well put & you don't stand a chance of making it to the majority of the population.


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## hest (30 June 2012)

RagwortFacts said:



			Cptrayes. Is that [content removed]?  If so you seem to be rather an excellent horsewoman.
Unfortunately your grasp of logic or consequences doesn't seem so good.

I can think of plenty of harm that can be done by these myths. 

Horses may be harmed by vets thinking that ragwort poisoning is commoner than it is.
We know from the literature published around the world that liver damage is frequently not caused by ragwort even when it may originally be thought it was. Horses may therefore be misdiagnosed and not treated properly.

Horses may be harmed because more effort is put into the ragwort problem than to more serious issues.

People may be harmed by wasting their money on unnecessary controls.

People may be harmed because their businesses suffer reputational harm because they have published something incorrect that they picked up on a forum or in a magazine.

People may be harmed because they write to newspapers and are then ridiculed by people who really know what they are talking about replying.

People may have their adverts banned by the Advertising Standards Authority who adhere to proper scientific protocols and demand that claims made are supported by evidence. Not by "Horse and Hound  forum logic"  which seems to say you can make any  daft claim you like as long as nobody can produce the obviously non-existent evidence needed  to disprove it.

They may be prosecuted, as making false unsubstantiable claims can be against consumer protection legislation.

Someone may suffer psychological harm, because they heard about the skin-absorption myth like the terrified young teenage girl who contacted a ragwort expert because she had handled ragwort and thought she was going to die.

Someone may suffer loss in their work or professional standing because they come to a forum like this and, like many do on this forum, talk utter rubbish. They could get sacked from  jobs or never get interviews or suffer loss of pay rises. 

Their bosses or peers may have proper training in science and logic and recognise the irrational twaddle for what it really is. There really are some people in this forum who show personality traits through their arguement style which can be associated  with identifiable traits known from the scientific literature to be associated with poor cognitive performance.
They may read this forum and decide they don't want to employ some of the "thickos"
		
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Ragwort Facts - are you a part of the "research" team too?

If you are then you may need to look for better reasons to justify your (bizarre) research than the ones you list above. 

The only, as you put it, "daft claims" and "utter rubbish" on this thread, are the ones made by you and your colleagues. 

For example: People may suffer "psychological harm", "be prosecuted", "could get sacked from their jobs" etc etc. as fall-out from the ragwort "myths". Seriously??!!!!!

If it weren't for the fact that you had a website dedicated to your cause, I would have assumed that this thread was one big wind-up.


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## cptrayes (30 June 2012)

RagwortFacts said:



			Cptrayes. Is that Caroline Trayes?  If so you seem to be rather an excellent horsewoman.
		
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I wouldn't call myself an excellent horsewoman but thankyou for the compliment. On English forums, you might like to note, it is rude to use a person's given name unless they do so themselves. Please don't do it again.





			Unfortunately your grasp of logic or consequences doesn't seem so good.
		
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Ah, now I would have to disagree with you there. I have been tested with a very reliable test as being in the top 1% of the world's population for my critical reasoning ability. Have you done the Watson Glazer test? Where did you come, can I ask?




			I can think of plenty of harm that can be done by these myths.
		
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You have a vivid imagination, I'll give you that 




			Their bosses or peers may have proper training in science and logic and recognise the irrational twaddle for what it really is. There really are some people in this forum who show personality traits through their arguement style which can be associated  with identifiable traits known from the scientific literature to be associated with poor cognitive performance.
They may read this forum and decide they don't want to employ some of the "thickos"
		
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Just because one or two people post on a forum showing that they have not been lucky enough to have the level of education, or be born with the cognitive skills, that others have, is no reason to describe the entire body of forum users as thick.

Plenty of us have made perfectly valid challenges to what the trio of you have been writing, and those challenges have been sidestepped or ignored. It is not* our *cognitive performance that you should be worrying about. 

If you are seriously worried about bosses spotting people's lack of critical thinking, cognitive skills and social media skills, I think you need to look closer to home.


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## cptrayes (30 June 2012)

RagwortFacts said:



			Horses may be harmed by vets thinking that ragwort poisoning is commoner than it is.
We know from the literature published around the world that liver damage is frequently not caused by ragwort even when it may originally be thought it was. Horses may therefore be misdiagnosed and not treated properly.
		
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Can you please tell me exactly what the difference in treatment is between liver failure from ragwort poisoning and liver failure for any other reason?  

If there is a good answer to this question, as there may be, then I would also ask why the devil THAT is not the information that you are trying to spread, instead of the nonsense that has been written about so far. If this thread had been set up to explain to people with horses with liver failure that they should be receiving a totally different treatment than they are, then I could understand your fervour.

Can you also please tell me how anyone can reliably ever say that liver failure was not caused by ragwort unless they bred the horse in a ragwort free box, fed it no forage, and kept it there until the symptoms appeared?


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## Alec Swan (30 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			.......

 On English forums, you might like to note, it is rude to use a person's given name unless they do so themselves. Please don't do it again.

.......
		
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It's also in clear contravention of the T&Cs of this forum,  which may explain why RF's name seems to be now in dark print. 

Alec.


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## hairycob (30 June 2012)

Sigh.

I'll never learn how I could improve my horses welfare as well as saving so much time and money.

It did occur to me that if they want to debunk a myth that really does cause needless panic maybe they should address the issue of plaits in manes & theft. That one could run & run!


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## Goldenstar (30 June 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			It's also in clear contravention of the T&Cs of this forum,  which may explain why RF's name seems to be now in dark print. 

Alec.
		
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Does that mean we are saved from reading any more about their very wierd fetish that willbe a relief.


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## Capriole (30 June 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Does that mean we are saved from reading any more about their very wierd fetish that willbe a relief.
		
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Doubt it. Im sure they will be back to patronise, insult, and post links at us until we all agree that *whatever it is they are trying to get us to do*  is the right and only way to do *whatever it is they are trying to get us to do*


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## xxMozlarxx (30 June 2012)

I'm not clear why anyone bothered to engage with this nonsense in the first place, it's been given far too much attention.


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## cptrayes (30 June 2012)

Oh but it's been such fun 

The only arguments I like better than this one is where the other people arguing back actually know what they are talking about. Unfortunately this lot don't know much about grazing horses in this country, or scientific method.



ps it weren't me that button pushed. I post under my own name, I just don't like people I've never met or anyone anonymous using my given name on this forum.


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## PolarSkye (30 June 2012)

RagwortFacts said:



			Cptrayes. Is that [content removed]?  If so you seem to be rather an excellent horsewoman.
Unfortunately your grasp of logic or consequences doesn't seem so good.

I can think of plenty of harm that can be done by these myths. 

Horses may be harmed by vets thinking that ragwort poisoning is commoner than it is.

We know from the literature published around the world that liver damage is frequently not caused by ragwort even when it may originally be thought it was. Horses may therefore be misdiagnosed and not treated properly.

Horses may be harmed because more effort is put into the ragwort problem than to more serious issues.

People may be harmed by wasting their money on unnecessary controls.

People may be harmed because their businesses suffer reputational harm because they have published something incorrect that they picked up on a forum or in a magazine.

People may be harmed because they write to newspapers and are then ridiculed by people who really know what they are talking about replying.

People may have their adverts banned by the Advertising Standards Authority who adhere to proper scientific protocols and demand that claims made are supported by evidence. Not by "Horse and Hound  forum logic"  which seems to say you can make any  daft claim you like as long as nobody can produce the obviously non-existent evidence needed  to disprove it.

They may be prosecuted, as making false unsubstantiable claims can be against consumer protection legislation.

Someone may suffer psychological harm, because they heard about the skin-absorption myth like the terrified young teenage girl who contacted a ragwort expert because she had handled ragwort and thought she was going to die.

Someone may suffer loss in their work or professional standing because they come to a forum like this and, like many do on this forum, talk utter rubbish. They could get sacked from  jobs or never get interviews or suffer loss of pay rises. 

Their bosses or peers may have proper training in science and logic and recognise the irrational twaddle for what it really is. There really are some people in this forum who show personality traits through their arguement style which can be associated  with identifiable traits known from the scientific literature to be associated with poor cognitive performance.
They may read this forum and decide they don't want to employ some of the "thickos"
		
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Really?  I mean, most of this . . . just . . . really?  

Sigh.  Get a grip/life, please.

P


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## rhino (30 June 2012)

hairycob said:



			Bearing in mind that all of the horses on my yard are good doers currently needing to be strip grazed with the majority being cobs/native x, what do you suggest? What can you recommend that will save me time/money & improve my horses welfare. I bought my ragfork 5 or 6 years ago, other than that I spend £0 p.a.
		
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A simple method had been found to destroy the Ragwort. Sea water, from which life on Earth had sprung, became the means of preserving life on Earth. Mankind survived and once again have reason to give thanks.​

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Ah, no sorry now, that was how to kill Triffids, not ragwort. Oh well


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## xxMozlarxx (30 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Oh but it's been such fun 




I know, I know.....but still, the amount of attention on peeps who can spout such claptrap.....

Click to expand...


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## Fellewell (30 June 2012)

The Cinnabar Moth which may or may not be under threat has one 'brood' per year.
Surprise surprise, the adult moths emerge in June (cue Esther et al)

If anyone is in any doubt, the Cinnabar Moth absorbs *toxic alkaloids* from ragwort to protect itself from predators.

Ragwort is poisonous. We know it, Esther knows it, even the bloody moth knows it.

Those are ragwort facts

ETA The moth lives almost exclusively on ragwort


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## hairycob (30 June 2012)

It's a good job seawater is for killing triffids not ragwort - Bedfordshire is about as far from the sea as you can get in the UK. Handy in Holland though, they would just have to let the sea back in.


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## EstherHegt (30 June 2012)

Capriole said:



			Doubt it. Im sure they will be back to patronise, insult, and post links at us until we all agree that *whatever it is they are trying to get us to do*  is the right and only way to do *whatever it is they are trying to get us to do*
		
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4.3 	Do not post rude or abusive messages - including personal attacks on other Users.


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## Capriole (30 June 2012)

What now?

(eta, in fact never mind, I dont care what you mean)


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## Alec Swan (30 June 2012)

Fellewell said:



			The Cinnabar Moth which may or may not be under threat has one 'brood' per year.
Surprise surprise, the adult moths emerge in June (cue Esther et al)

If anyone is in any doubt, the Cinnabar Moth absorbs *toxic alkaloids* from ragwort to protect itself from predators.

Ragwort is poisonous. We know it, Esther knows it, even the bloody moth knows it.

Those are ragwort facts

ETA The moth lives almost exclusively on ragwort
		
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When I was very small,  the Cinnabar Moth Caterpillars were all over every plant.  I didn't see one caterpillar last year,  and though our local plants aren't at the stage of flowering,  yet,  there still isn't a caterpillar in sight.

Alec.


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## hairycob (30 June 2012)

Esther,

Why don't you just answer our questions? See my questions to Ragwort facts earlier. And my earlier questions that have been ignored.

As I said earlier - I am very intelligent, if you are not getting your point across to me you just aren't putting across very well & so don't stand a chance with 99% of the population.

Oh and if you think Caprioles comment was rude & abusive you must have lived a very sheltered life.


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## Fellewell (30 June 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			When I was very small,  the Cinnabar Moth Caterpillars were all over every plant.  I didn't see one caterpillar last year,  and though our local plants aren't at the stage of flowering,  yet,  there still isn't a caterpillar in sight.

Alec.
		
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Interesting, perhaps there are regional variations? 

If Esther's agenda was to somehow involve the horse community in her research I'd say she went about it in completely the wrong way.


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## EstherHegt (30 June 2012)

hairycob said:



			Esther,

Why don't you just answer our questions? See my questions to Ragwort facts earlier. And my earlier questions that have been ignored.

As I said earlier - I am very intelligent, if you are not getting your point across to me you just aren't putting across very well & so don't stand a chance with 99% of the population.

Oh and if you think Caprioles comment was rude & abusive you must have lived a very sheltered life.
		
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I did answer questions, We gave links with the answer, but didn't answer speculations. There was one question I refused to answer, that was about the dead of my horse with liverfailure, every dead from liverfailure is very nasty.
I gave a lot of reference to scientific literature, I gave the link to the FOI and the cases at Liverpool university. There where NO cases.
The problem in this discussion is, somebody got angry, other readers repeat that anger or fear and didn't look what whe wrote. 
In my OP I also told a bit how we solved the problem  in the Netherlands and did a suggestion how you can do that also. And I can tell some more, we did really went to the government, I think in UK it is called house of commons. We did asked them to help for ragwort free hay, it is European law now. We also got a lot  of help from experts from different university's and the EU panel did investigation about the ragwort problem on facts. The EU panel are specialits and worlwide leading authority's in toxicology. We didn't told anybody ragwort isn't poisonous, we did told not every method is good if you want your pasture free of ragwort. Angry people, and people who are afraid can't believe that.


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## Crugeran Celt (30 June 2012)

EstherHegt, this is a joke right? I cannot believe you are for real!


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## JanetGeorge (30 June 2012)

RagwortFacts said:



			Someone may suffer psychological harm, because they heard about the skin-absorption myth like the terrified young teenage girl who contacted a ragwort expert because she had handled ragwort and thought she was going to die.
		
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The toxins in Ragwort can be absorbed through the skin and make you feel like *****!  I know - because it happened to me.  I'd heard how you should wear gloves when pulling ragwort - but I'd been pulling it for years without gloves or ill-effect.  One day I was pulling a large patch (without gloves) and an hour after I finished I suffered extreme nausea for which there was NO other explanation.  I felt seedy for several days.  I'll still pull theodd plant without gloves - but I certainly wouldn't pull a lot!  Better some teenagers get terrified into taking care with their health than that they listen to YOU and get ill!


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## hairycob (30 June 2012)

No Esther, you have not answered my questions. You have waffled & drivelled & posted links, but the one thing you have absolutely not done is answer my questions. 
Ragwort facts posted that you are intelligent. I postulate that he/she was wrong, based on the evidence of your posts.
Now please in your next post actually answer my questions, preferably in bullet point format in non technical jargon. My job involves presenting information to the Board of an extremely large multinational company. Many of the Directors do not have English as their first language. If I presented information in the manner you do I would have been sacked within a week.


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## EstherHegt (30 June 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			EstherHegt, this is a joke right? I cannot believe you are for real!
		
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Try it and read my website, control my sources and control what we have done. I think we did more then Knottenbelt did with his opinion about ragwort. It is a personal opinion and he became a saint.
You can fight ragwort in the pasture with good knowledge of the plant, you can't fight ragwort with anger and fear in the pasture.
Sure I will help people in UK and wil help with facts. Not a joke.


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## hairycob (30 June 2012)

Did you not read my last post Esther?


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## EstherHegt (30 June 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			The toxins in Ragwort can be absorbed through the skin and make you feel like *****!  I know - because it happened to me.  I'd heard how you should wear gloves when pulling ragwort - but I'd been pulling it for years without gloves or ill-effect.  One day I was pulling a large patch (without gloves) and an hour after I finished I suffered extreme nausea for which there was NO other explanation.  I felt seedy for several days.  I'll still pull theodd plant without gloves - but I certainly wouldn't pull a lot!  Better some teenagers get terrified into taking care with their health than that they listen to YOU and get ill!
		
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Ragwort can cause an allergic skin reaction upon contact; compositae dermatitis (7). This allergy can appear after touching or eating the plant. This allergy is not caused by the pyrrolizidine alkaloids but by other substances that are common in many of the members of the Sunflower family (sesquiterpene lactones)(8).

Full article http://www.ragwort.org.uk/facts-or-...oning-through-skin-absorption-fact-or-fiction


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## Crugeran Celt (30 June 2012)

You can fight ragwort in the pasture with good knowledge of the plant, you can't fight ragwort with anger and fear in the pasture.


I never feel angry towards the ragwort I pull, I smile all the while I am doing it and I really am not afraid of it either. It hasn't pulled back yet or bitten me so no fear!


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## hairycob (30 June 2012)

Seeing as you clearly find it difficult to look back to make it easier for you, here are the questions I asked Ragwort Facts:

Ragwort facts

Every morning this week I have spent 10-15 minutes digging ragwort out of my winter field. In the 4 summers I have been using that field no ragwort has been allowed to flower, let alone seed, in or adjacent to it. My summer field only gets the occasional plant which is dug up as soon as I see it. I am now on top of that field & will just monitor on a weekly basis. I suspect my experience is pretty average although, sadly, I don't have any peer reviewed papers to back that up.

Esther & co keep coming on here telling us we are hysterical & manage our pasture all wrong, but do not, despite us asking for clear recommendations, make any sensible suggestions.
Bearing in mind that all of the horses on my yard are good doers currently needing to be strip grazed with the majority being cobs/native x, what do you suggest? What can you recommend that will save me time/money & improve my horses welfare. I bought my ragfork 5 or 6 years ago, other than that I spend £0 p.a.

Are you saying I should just leave the ragwort there? The suggestion from one of our Dutch friends appeared to be that unless you could guarantee that your pasture was always ragwort free you shouldn't have a horse. I did twice ask if that was really what he meant because it would be easy for him to say something misleading in English, but the question was ignored


Now answer the questions.


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## EstherHegt (30 June 2012)

hairycob said:



			Seeing as you clearly find it difficult to look back to make it easier for you, here are the questions I asked Ragwort Facts:

Ragwort facts

Every morning this week I have spent 10-15 minutes digging ragwort out of my winter field. In the 4 summers I have been using that field no ragwort has been allowed to flower, let alone seed, in or adjacent to it. My summer field only gets the occasional plant which is dug up as soon as I see it. I am now on top of that field & will just monitor on a weekly basis. I suspect my experience is pretty average although, sadly, I don't have any peer reviewed papers to back that up.

Esther & co keep coming on here telling us we are hysterical & manage our pasture all wrong, but do not, despite us asking for clear recommendations, make any sensible suggestions.
Bearing in mind that all of the horses on my yard are good doers currently needing to be strip grazed with the majority being cobs/native x, what do you suggest? What can you recommend that will save me time/money & improve my horses welfare. I bought my ragfork 5 or 6 years ago, other than that I spend £0 p.a.

Are you saying I should just leave the ragwort there? The suggestion from one of our Dutch friends appeared to be that unless you could guarantee that your pasture was always ragwort free you shouldn't have a horse. I did twice ask if that was really what he meant because it would be easy for him to say something misleading in English, but the question was ignored


Now answer the questions.
		
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In a yellow field full of ragwort,  don't keep a horse. Do some first at the pasture. If a field isn't suitable for food, don't put a horse in it. It is simple.


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## Crugeran Celt (30 June 2012)

hairycob said:



			Seeing as you clearly find it difficult to look back to make it easier for you, here are the questions I asked Ragwort Facts:

Ragwort facts

Every morning this week I have spent 10-15 minutes digging ragwort out of my winter field. In the 4 summers I have been using that field no ragwort has been allowed to flower, let alone seed, in or adjacent to it. My summer field only gets the occasional plant which is dug up as soon as I see it. I am now on top of that field & will just monitor on a weekly basis. I suspect my experience is pretty average although, sadly, I don't have any peer reviewed papers to back that up.


Bearing in mind that all of the horses on my yard are good doers currently needing to be strip grazed with the majority being cobs/native x, what do you suggest? What can you recommend that will save me time/money & improve my horses welfare. I bought my ragfork 5 or 6 years ago, other than that I spend £0 p.a.

All this applies to me too so that is two of us, perhaps if everybody has the same experiences with ragwort we can publish them as facts!
		
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## alsiola (30 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Ragwort can cause an allergic skin reaction upon contact; compositae dermatitis (7). This allergy can appear after touching or eating the plant. This allergy is not caused by the pyrrolizidine alkaloids but by other substances that are common in many of the members of the Sunflower family (sesquiterpene lactones)(8).

Full article http://www.ragwort.org.uk/facts-or-...oning-through-skin-absorption-fact-or-fiction

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So you would recommend wearing gloves then?


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## Crugeran Celt (30 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			In a yellow field full of ragwort,  don't keep a horse. Do some first at the pasture. If a field isn't suitable for food, don't put a horse in it. It is simple.
		
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Now I know you are taking the ....!


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## rhino (30 June 2012)

Oi! Hairy and Crug. I have a present for you:


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## hairycob (30 June 2012)

But Esther that is what I do. The winter field had some ragwort that I have been removing. It's taken me just over an hour spread over 5 days to walk over the whole field & remove the plants. If any new plants pop up in my summer field they get dug up straight away. I know the weather has been rubbish and that may have confused you, but it is actually summer so they aren't in the winter field.

So what am I supposed to change? I still don't get what your issue is.


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## Crugeran Celt (30 June 2012)

rhino said:



			Oi! Hairy and Crug. I have a present for you:






















Click to expand...

Thanks made me laugh!


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## hairycob (30 June 2012)

Rhino,

Do you have some ibuprofen as well? All this banging my head against a brick wall has given me a headache.
By the way I'm still saving up for that unicorn horn.


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## rhino (30 June 2012)

hairycob said:



			Rhino,

Do you have some ibuprofen as well? All this banging my head against a brick wall has given me a headache.
By the way I'm still saving up for that unicorn horn.
		
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Are you sure it is a headache? I think it is hysteria, and you would benefit from this


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## hairycob (30 June 2012)

I suppose it would save panicking about ragwort!


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## Crugeran Celt (30 June 2012)

That's a great idea it won't get poisened by ragwort!


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## hairycob (30 June 2012)

Just looked at that again - stagnation of the liver. Is that another myth about ragwort?


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## TrasaM (30 June 2012)

Horse action home exerciser !,, I love it


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## cptrayes (30 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			4.3 	Do not post rude or abusive messages - including personal attacks on other Users.
		
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Esther, 

it is not against the forum rules to say to someone who has patronised, insulted and quoted references at forum members that they have patronised, insulted and quote references at forum members.


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## pootleperkin (30 June 2012)

hairycob said:



			But Esther that is what I do. The winter field had some ragwort that I have been removing. It's taken me just over an hour spread over 5 days to walk over the whole field & remove the plants. If any new plants pop up in my summer field they get dug up straight away. I know the weather has been rubbish and that may have confused you, but it is actually summer so they aren't in the winter field.

So what am I supposed to change? I still don't get what your issue is.
		
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Listen hairy cob, it is simple - sell your horses because your pasture is not suitable!!! DON'T YOU GET IT!!!   

Don't even try to control your ragwort - it is present in your pasture, so it must be allowed to stay there now as it is ecologically valuable.

Actually, according to Ragwort fact's blog (which is amazingly repetitive and uses the same phraseology all the time) although it really is toxic, don't worry about having it in you field, because your horses, like dolphins and dogs, will categorically NOT eat it. The only risk is when it is hidden in hay. Apparently. So the horse I saw die of liver poisoning after been stuck in a field for 4 years with nothing but ragwort, categorically didn't eat any of it and didn't die of that cause. hmmm.

Rhino - can I borrow you brick wall?

PS the other amazing things about that blog is the laudatory laguage which Ragwort Facts uses about all of the dutch group and the PhD - things like towering intellect, stellar cast of experts, magnificent website - the whole thing strikes of a quasi-religion - very strange. However she does have the decency to say that Germaine Greer seems quite intelligent - you don't say!


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## cptrayes (30 June 2012)

hairycob said:



			As I said earlier - I am very intelligent,.
		
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Oooh, be careful hairycob, you might get a PM from East Kent like I did this morning questionning my modesty 

Unhappily, he/she seems unprepared to answer the 3 PMs I sent in response, the last one saying that I find cowardice an overrated trait, with a grin  of course, like he/she used in his/her PM.


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## hairycob (30 June 2012)

I'm sure Germaine Greer will be most flattered!

Perhaps I had better arrange to have my horses shot because everybody gets some ragwort & therefore is unfit to own them.


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## Mrs B (30 June 2012)

Esther.

Do you want to know why, as we say here, you and your two colleagues have 'got everyone's backs up' ie annoyed the HHO members so much?

You came here with an agenda which makes no sense to us: to tell us we don't understand a pasture management 'problem' we have actually been managing very well over the years, and to discredit a man who has been a huge asset to the horse world.

You labour under the misapprehension that terrible rumours are currently circulating in the UK about the effects of ragwort being (or not being) absorbed through the skin or causing liver failure in horses.

They are NOT. Ragwort is occasionally mentioned on this forum but it is not a topic that concerns us much.

I like ragwort, as a plant. It's pretty, it supports a small ecosystem of its own and like every other example of flora or fauna that exists, it has a place and a purpose. But in the world in which we live, (i.e. massively overpopulated by humans) it's not always appropriate to allow it to flourish in every situation: and where it may become mixed into a hay crop is one of them. So we remove it. Fortunately, where I live it isn't as common as the area I grew up in 40 years ago, where we pulled it, by hand. And over the years, the plants became fewer in the pastures.

But back to this thread.

Bizarrely, your friend 'Ragwort Facts'  then joined in, all guns blazing, to say that by spreading rumours, we may cause people to lose their jobs etc and that we're all too 'thick' to understand your arguments.

Well, that's just plain rude. And also more than a tad weird in the wider context :roll eyes:.

I have just read today about 5000 jobs being axed at Blackberry: about the fluctuating markets as a results of Angela Merkel's u-turn: about ongoing massacres in Syria: about efforts to rebalance the books in Greece while people and animals are starving: about 3,000 homeless horses facing destruction here, due to abandonment caused by the recession, as the charities can't cope: and even about this year's failed apple crop in the UK. But not one word about job loses or trashed reputations because of ragwort rumours spread by thick horse owners like me.

You and your friends may have a point (somewhere), about something to do with the little yellow-flowered plant we call ragwort; although unfortunately, you have failed to make it clear enough what that point IS to those who, like me, are obviously a bit on the 'slow' side. You may well be very passionate and dedicated and intelligent....

BUT you have totally and utterly blown this out of all proportion and therefore have lost any credibility for your cause. I am (I hate to admit) rather intrigued to understand how such a minor topic has taken over your lives to such an extent that you barge onto a forum such as this in such a manner.

What on EARTH has upset you all so much to take it to these extremes?

I guess on one level, you are to be congratulated. You have managed to make the entire membership of this forum  (as existed prior to your arrival) agree on something!

Now that SHOULD make the headlines...


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## cptrayes (30 June 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			However she does have the decency to say that Germaine Greer seems quite intelligent - you don't say!
		
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Have you read the Female Eunuch? Did you find it credible that she accused a nurse of almost cutting off her clitoris by mistake ?  Im not sure, but I think I'd rather read Esther than Germaine


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## hairycob (30 June 2012)

Just checked my PMs & nothing there. 
If I do get one I promise to share the contents with you all.


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## pootleperkin (30 June 2012)

hairycob said:



			I'm sure Germaine Greer will be most flattered!

Perhaps I had better arrange to have my horses shot because everybody gets some ragwort & therefore is unfit to own them.
		
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I'm polishing my bolt gun out as I speak.....and I have only ever had about 3 or 4 rosettes in my field each year in the seven years I have been here.

I think Esther needs to understand that we don't have lots of options in terms of pasture over here in the UK. I own one field. I don't have access to any other fields in my area. It's not a simple as just moving the horses in order to change the pasture management.


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## pootleperkin (30 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Have you read the Female Eunuch? Did you find it credible that she accused a nurse of almost cutting off her clitoris by mistake ?  Im not sure, but I think I'd rather read Esther than Germaine 

Click to expand...

For all I respect GG, I suspect she's not really my cup of tea, so no, I haven't read the Female Eunuch! I enjoy listening to her debate though, and don't doubt her intelligence!


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## cptrayes (30 June 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			For all I respect GG, I suspect she's not really my cup of tea, so no, I haven't read the Female Eunuch! I enjoy listening to her debate though, and don't doubt her intelligence!
		
Click to expand...

Yes, me too. Incredibly intelligent woman but if the nurse could have cut it off with a razor while doing a pube shave she's got a much bigger one than me! Is that lucky, or not, I wonder. More interesting than ragwort myths by a long shot


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## pootleperkin (30 June 2012)

....and well said Mrs B; I just don't understand all the time and effort given to something that really isn't of much impact. (and that is why I am spending my time and effort on this thread, as irrationality completely intrigues me!)

People always have their pet subjects in science......but there are specialist journals that cater for these musings....!


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## cptrayes (30 June 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			I think Esther needs to understand that we don't have lots of options in terms of pasture over here in the UK. I own one field. I don't have access to any other fields in my area. It's not a simple as just moving the horses in order to change the pasture management.
		
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I think Esther needs to understand that I don't agree with her and neither do a lot of us, and that the methods she proposes may not actually be the best for our horses in this country.

I am lucky enough to have a field big enough to section into at least 4. I have no intention of doing that, because my horses love the space and keep themselves fit with a damned good gallop around the 12 acres. I also don't need to harrow it or poo pick because they have space to avoid poo areas and graze elsewhere and over the years they naturally rotate poo spots. Meanwhile, the field is an unfertilized wildflower meadow containing natural red sorrel wormers that they eat when they need them. If the payment for that (which I don't believe it is) is to hand pull a few ragwort plants each year (and I don't wear gloves ), it's a price well worth paying.


ps both Esther and Nick may also like to note that I have a dense sward of grass, flowers and herbs and that this does not prevent the occasional self seeding of ragwort from my neighbouring farmers. You contention that ragwort cannot grow in dense sward is entirely incorrect, in my experience. Ironically, the places that I have never seen ragwort growth are in the bare earth "bedrooms" the horses make or the poached gateways. I really do think that if people are going to come onto a forum and preach, then they should at least have their facts straight.


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## hairycob (30 June 2012)

See Esther hasn't come back on to respond to my confusion about what I'm supposed to change. Maybe my revelation that it isn't actually winter has stunned her into silence.


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## Crugeran Celt (30 June 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I think Esther needs to understand that I don't agree with her and neither do a lot of us, and that the methods she proposes may not actually be the best for our horses in this country.

I am lucky enough to have a field big enough to section into at least 4. I have no intention of doing that, because my horses love the space and keep themselves fit with a damned good gallop around the 12 acres. I also don't need to harrow it or poo pick because they have space to avoid poo areas and graze elsewhere and over the years they naturally rotate poo spots. Meanwhile, the field is an unfertilized wildflower meadow containing natural red sorrel wormers that they eat when they need them. If the payment for that (which I don't believe it is) is to hand pull a few ragwort plants each year (and I don't wear gloves ), it's a price well worth paying.

Same here ten acres 2 horses, 2 miniatures. More than happy to pull the odd ragwort and cut down thistles. Am I allowed to cut thistles or they a protected species too Estherhegt?
		
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## EstherHegt (30 June 2012)

horserider said:



			Thanks *sbloom*, you've reminded me of their hidden agenda. Personally, I'd rather prevent horses from suffering an agonising death.

 Their campaign of twisted truths and untruths on horse forums is pretty distasteful.

Fortunately, most horse people are not stupid enough to fall for it.
		
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http://www.farmersguardian.com/ragwort-–-‘a-danger-to-both-man-and-animal’/1654.article


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## EstherHegt (30 June 2012)

Capriole said:



			Yes, please do go away with your incessant pro-ragwort rantings.
		
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And 4.3 Do not post rude or abusive messages - including personal attacks on other Users


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## rhino (30 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			And 4.3 Do not post rude or abusive messages - including personal attacks on other Users
		
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Get a grip. She said 'please' and everything 

What do you have issues with? Incessant? Check. Pro-ragwort rantings? Check. Quite honestly your last few posts have been becoming increasingly ridiculous. You are providing amusement for HHO, nothing more; certainly not education. That is not rude or abusive, that is my personal opinion to which I am entitled.


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## smokey (30 June 2012)

Esther, are you still talking? Please, for the love of God, stop now, my soul is dying a little bit with every new post!


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## Capriole (30 June 2012)

Oh for heavens sake, just go away will you.


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## Alec Swan (30 June 2012)

Right,  that's it.  That's the last time that I ever buy Edam cheese.  I never liked the revolting stuff anyway.

Alec.


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## Goldenstar (30 June 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Right,  that's it.  That's the last time that I ever buy Edam cheese.  I never liked the revolting stuff anyway.

Alec.
		
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Oops wine all over the iPad ,what are these people on?
I means this degree of passion over the yellow peril .


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## smokey (30 June 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Right,  that's it.  That's the last time that I ever buy Edam cheese.  I never liked the revolting stuff anyway.

Alec.
		
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Pmsl, hit them where it hurts Alec!


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## hest (30 June 2012)

*pops head in*

My God, this is the thread that will never die!

Just to update you all - it's ok, Andy Murray won.

Night night.


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## rhino (30 June 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Oops wine all over the iPad ,what are these people on?
I means this degree of passion over the yellow peril .
		
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I dunno! Hysteria does seem to have its benefits


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## xxMozlarxx (30 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			4.3 	Do not post rude or abusive messages - including personal attacks on other Users.
		
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You clearly misunderstand what constitutes 'rude or abusive' the comments made here are truisms...


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## EstherHegt (30 June 2012)

One last post, read this http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

A logical fallacy is usually what has happened when someone is wrong about something. It's a flaw in reasoning. They're like tricks or illusions of thought, and they're often very sneakily used by politicians and the media to fool people.

Good luck.


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## rhino (30 June 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			One last post, read this http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

A logical fallacy is usually what has happened when someone is wrong about something. It's a flaw in reasoning. They're like tricks or illusions of thought, and they're often very sneakily used by politicians and the media to fool people.

Good luck.
		
Click to expand...

Well I'm glad you've learned something from the thread Esther, and how brave of you to admit it to us. Fingers crossed you'll be less gullible in future


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## Nick Altena (30 June 2012)

A strange way of reacting here....
We too are people who love their horses, whe don't say ragwort is not toxic for them,we just said, it is not toxic by skin.

Is this the normal way in England as you deal with people ??

I want to ask you all ONE simple question...but maybe you can only answer when you did read and controlled the refference we have given to you , several times...

Why do you still believe what ONE proffessor is saying about this plant... and do you not believe a lot of other proffessors , named on the refference list we have given ?


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## smokey (1 July 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			A strange way of reacting here....
We too are people who love their horses, whe don't say ragwort is not toxic for them,we just said, it is not toxic by skin.

Is this the normal way in England as you deal with people ??

I want to ask you all ONE simple question...but maybe you can only answer when you did read and controlled the refference we have given to you , several times...

Why do you still believe what ONE proffessor is saying about this plant... and do you not believe a lot of other proffessors , named on the refference list we have given ?
		
Click to expand...

I will ask you one question...... What part of " we are not interested in your ramblings" do you not understand? Seriously, go campaign something which is important to people who care to listen to you


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## rhino (1 July 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			I want to ask you all ONE simple question...but maybe you can only answer when you did read and controlled the refference we have given to you , several times...

Why do you still believe what ONE proffessor is saying about this plant... and do you not believe a lot of other proffessors , named on the refference list we have given ?
		
Click to expand...

Nick dear, we don't. But it is a case of person x says one thing, and person y says the opposite. No proof either way. We know Ragwort is poisonous, and there is anecdotal evidence at the very least to suggest it may also be toxic on contact. As nobody can prove otherwise, it seems a sensible precaution to wear gloves when handling it. Even if it prevents the allergic responses, that is enough of a benefit in my opinion.

As to how many horses die? We don't know, we can't know, but surely you will agree that even 1 is 1 too many. We don't have the luxury of being able to pick and choose perfect pasture, and we don't believe a nationwide slaughter of horses for those who cannot guarantee ragwort free pasture is really a viable option. And that would be the only option, as there are vast numbers of unwanted horses in the UK that can't be rehomed anyway.

We would I feel be interested in the Ragwort free hay systems being set up, but despite questioning we are no further forward in understanding how you went about that, and therefore if it would be a possibility in the UK. Most caring horseowners (and I'll class the vast majority of HHOers in that) will do what they can to check their forage is free of poisonous plants. 

I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't know, or don't care, but they are not the ones likely to be using an online forum devoted to horse care, are they?

I would be interested in any future research that is carried out, but nothing that has been said on this thread has been enough to change my mind on anything.


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## scullysdad (1 July 2012)

Erm - wow, that was some read!

I have never heard of any of the professors - ipso facto I don't know about any myths.

I don't believe a word the press say about anything.

The problem with our Dutch "experts" is not that we cannot understand their English, it is that they cannot understand our replies.

Ragwort is not good for hossies - nor is lush grasss

Pulling rag is one way of controlling it - spraying is another - sheep make one hell of a smelly mess of any grazing!

If you care about your health wear gloves, wash hands, do not eat food while pulling rag!

Not a myth in sight, just a practical approach to keeping our beloved hossies as best we can.

Still can't get over the idea of scraping off all the soil from 5 acres and replacing it with weed free soil - where would we put the soil scraped off and where would we get the soil to replace it? The garden centre?? 

Planet Zog or what??


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## Ladydragon (1 July 2012)

ragwortsense said:



			At this time every year, there are a lot of stories about ragwort that do not reflect the facts.
		
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Yep, and the Dutch contingent in this thread seem to be perpetuating them all...  So far the only stories, myths and facts that appear to be continually rammed down my throat reading all this are:

1 - We become hysterical at the mere mention of ragwort...
We don't...

2 - We hysterically worry we'll all die of liver failure it we touch it...
We don't...

3 - We hysterically worry that our horses will promptly drop dead from ragwort poisoning if they sniffed or rolled on some ragwort...
We don't...

4 - We are either incapable of removing ragwort when or if it arrives in a field and use salt liberally or we regularly keep horses in fields of ragwort when we shouldn't have horses...  Perhaps because we fell asleep for a year or don't know how to manage it...
We don't...

5 - Prof Knottenbelt has scared us all witless about ragwort and created the aforementioned hysteria...
He hasn't...

6 - We have vets who diagnose any form of liver disease to be the fault of ragwort poisoning...
We don't...

7 - We believe a stack of myths about ragwort...
It appears, we don't...

Whilst yelling about supposed myths, you appear to be creating far more...


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## hairycob (1 July 2012)

The sad thing is there are myths that create hysterical panic:
                Eastern Europeans photographing horses to steal to order
                Gypsies putting plaits in manes to mark horses to steal etc,etc
It's a shame they don't put their educating zeal into things that really do cause people to lose sleep instead of wasting their time telling us that ragwort is poisonous to horses & really it would be better if it didn't grow in their grazing. Because guess what - we already knew that. They have spouted absolutely zilch on here to tell us anything we didn't know already & have given us no new practical solutions. If they had actually come up with some good ideas to get rid of the stuff more easily we would have said "ta muchly" & tried them out. People who are happy to let their horses graze in ragwort strewn pasture are not, by & large, the sort of people who spend their free time on HHO.
Maybe they will be back next week to try & educate us that Syria is not a good holiday destination at the moment. Because, after all, we are all too stupid to work that out for ourselves & may merely think of all the interesting archealogical sites we could visit.
Mind you it has been tremendous fun, much better than anything on the tv lately.


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## cptrayes (1 July 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			One last post
		
Click to expand...

I hope that's one true statement that you have made on this thread, at least Esther.

Bye.


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## LittleWildOne (1 July 2012)

Okay, so, I did a bit of snooping around on t'internet last night.
This thread was started on 6th June 2012. BY COINCIDENCE, if you take a peek at "Buglife - The Invertebrate Conservation Trust " website, guess what their "June - Bug Of The Month " is ?
DrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrUMROLLLLLLLLLLL !

It's the CINNABAR MOTH !!!!! 

So, it appears that our Dutch "friends" have an agenda. They are trying to brainwash us with their DICTORIAL (adjective for a dictator ) posts into NOT pulling ragwort !

Why ?

Because they are BUNNY HUGGERS of the INSECT WORLD .

I actually found a thread on one forum where Esther actually stated that she LOVES ragwort. (That thread was LOCKED by a mod after 12 pages ).

So now people, we know EXACTLY why Esther and friends are posting AT us in the manner they do .

It is THEY who are HYSTERICAL, because they are scared that all of their little creepy crawlies are being put in danger by us PULLING OUR RAGWORT .


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## Alec Swan (1 July 2012)

L_W_O,

that's an interesting post of yours,  including the usage explanation of the English language. 

The reliance upon a food supply,  for any living creature,  would be an indicator as to its population,  I would have thought.  The odd thing is,  that thanks to our (with the exception of this year) recent decade of near droughted summer conditions,  we have had a massive expansion in our Ragwort densities,  but we haven't had a similar expansion in the occurrence of the caterpillars of the Cinnabar Moth.  As a small boy,  I remember just about every plant being covered in the caterpillars,  but over the last 5 years,  and the countless thousands of plants which I've viewed,  I don't suppose that I've seen any more than half a dozen plants which are supporting caterpillars.  Odd that,  because you'd think that with such an abundant food supply,  the moth population would thrive;  apparently not,  but I don't know why.

The moth concerned is not entirely reliant upon the ragwort plant,  but others of the _genus Senecio_,  so even if we managed to eradicate the evil plant,  the moth would still survive.  In the 1950s our Rook population nested,  almost exclusively in our European Elms,  along came "Dutch Elm Disease" (something else which we can thank them for),  and the cry went up,  "Where will our rooks nest"?  The reality is that they found alternative lodgings,  as will the Cinnabar moth.

Alec.


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## cptrayes (1 July 2012)

LWO how sad are we that we care :d ?

Alec - the answer might be:

What eats the eggs, caterpillars or adult moths?

Plenty of food, few caterpillars = more predators?

I'm not sure my life is quite so empty as to make me bother to find out 


ps your post reminds me of sitting yelling "you idiots!" at the TV as an "expert" described how it would be perfectly safe to introduce a bug into this country that lives exclusively on Japanese knotweed. He confidently stated that tests had proved that it would die out when it had exhausted supplies of knotweed. I hope to goodness no-one takes him up on it!


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## Dobiegirl (1 July 2012)

http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/f...ty-trouble-over-publicity-over-ragwort-2.html


If anyone wants to read, so they had a hidden agenda after all, why couldnt they be honest  and say they were concerned about the decline of the Cinnabar Moth.

I agree with Alex , the Cinnabar Moth has been declining for years even though there has been an upsurge in Ragwort, I suspect its decline is because of another factor that these people have not considered.

Iam more concerned with the decline of the glo worm as I havnt seen one for years.


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## LittleWildOne (1 July 2012)

Thanks Alec 

cptrayes, I don't think we actually DO care as such. I think the fact we are replying to this ridiculous thread is because the Dutch posters are making claims that we are being hysterical, and that we don't care or know how to maintain OUR grazing. These people are posting in a similar manner all over the internet, and have even mentioned THIS thread. 
I don't know what it is, but every time I log on, I check to see if anymore has been added to this thread. My reaction every time is OMG, FFS ! Is this nonsense STILL going ? But then, I just can't help myself and HAVE to read it .
Am I correct in thinking though that the Cinnabar moth (and caterpillars) HAVE NO PREDATORS ? (Whispers " Oh S**t, THEY will reply again with yet more links to PROVE they know best  ).

Dobiegirl, I didn't see that thread when I checked on WAB. I logged in (member - I enjoy birdwatching ), then did a search for "ragwort".
I found this thread http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/f...ts-and-tree-forums/14973-ragwort-illegal.html amongst others. (Esther appears about halfway through).


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## Goldenstar (1 July 2012)

I can remember pulling the stalks of ragwort plants consumned by these caterpillars when I was a child I wonder what really happened to them all ?


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## rhino (1 July 2012)

LittleWildOne said:



			So, it appears that our Dutch "friends" have an agenda. They are trying to brainwash us with their DICTORIAL (adjective for a dictator ) posts into NOT pulling ragwort !
		
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I don't know, I think their agenda is multifaceted, and part of the vendetta seems to be with this very forum. HHO is mentioned an unbelievable number times on the ragwort hysteria blog (yes, with all of its 9 members ). Still, it makes a nice change from the ASA ruling, which seems to make up the vast majority of the other posts. What have we constantly been told, if you say something often enough people will believe it? Or is it just a case of there being very little else worth mentioning, so the same 2 or 3 points are repeated _ad nauseum_. Hysterical much?

Nice try though!

Since we seem to be lacking in 'facts' on this thread, here is some information that may or may not be helpful. If anyone has anything extra or that succeeds it please post!

Weeds act 1959

Natural England: Enforcing the Weeds Act 1959

Natural England Weeds Act 1959 Complaint form

Defra code of practice on how to prevent the spread of ragwort (has an identification key for some of the related species)

Ragwort Trust (set up to help fund research into an early test for ragwort poisoning)

Farmer type people - any help with recognising the Ragwort plant or other poisonous species in forage? Any tips you could give?

Any information on how the ragwort free hay system was set up in the Netherlands?


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## pootleperkin (1 July 2012)

Rhino, I noticed the blog has only 9 members! So much effort for such a large audience......one of whom is our friend Nick.


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## rhino (1 July 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			Rhino, I noticed the blog has only 9 members! So much effort for such a large audience......one of whom is our friend Nick.
		
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Small group but they're rather vocal! Just been looking at RagwortFacts' twitter account - bless him he's managed 40 or so followers on there! 

And yes, HHO gets a mention there too 
http://twitter.com/#!/ragwortfacts


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## PolarSkye (1 July 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			A strange way of reacting here....Why do you still believe what ONE proffessor is saying about this plant... and do you not believe a lot of other proffessors , named on the refference list we have given ?
		
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I believe what my vet (and thousands of others in the UK - and other places) says . . . and I'd rather be safe than sorry.  I'm pretty sure I'm not depriving my horse by not letting him eat ragwort.

P


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## JanetGeorge (1 July 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Why do you still believe what ONE proffessor is saying about this plant... and do you not believe a lot of other proffessors , named on the refference list we have given ?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe because this ONE professor is one of the most skilled and dedicated Veterinary Surgeons in the UK, who is internationally recognised for his research and treatment - not just of horses affected by ragwort, but also sarcoids, EMS and any number of other conditions!  When you've dealt with Professor Derek Knottenbelt for more than 15 years and he has successfully treated and cured a number of horses with challenging and serious conditions in that time - as I have - then of COURSE I'm going to believe him over some totally unknown (to me) professors from another country!

What I can't understand is why you people are sticking your nose in the UK's business with regards to the way we manage our horses, our pasture and our ragwort!   We don't tell YOU how to stick your finger in a dyke!


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## Mrs B (1 July 2012)

*quietly opens a book with self to take bets on whether Alec will be able to resist a comment when/if he reads the last line of JG's post... *


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## Capriole (1 July 2012)

.


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## rhino (1 July 2012)

What odds are you taking Mrs B?


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## crabbymare (1 July 2012)

Mrs B said:



*quietly opens a book with self to take bets on whether Alec will be able to resist a comment when/if he reads the last line of JG's post... *

Click to expand...

Are you taking bets as to _IF_ Alec will comment or how long before he comments


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## rhino (1 July 2012)

crabbymare said:



			Are you taking bets as to _IF_ Alec will comment or how long before he comments 

Click to expand...

Or _what_ his comment will be, closest guess wins?!


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## hairycob (1 July 2012)

Looking down sofa to find cash for a bet.


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## Mrs B (1 July 2012)

I'm not sure: trouble is, if we shout the odds and the 'runners and riders' on this thread, it rather gives the game away to Mr Swan...


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## smokey (1 July 2012)

Mrs B said:



*quietly opens a book with self to take bets on whether Alec will be able to resist a comment when/if he reads the last line of JG's post... *

Click to expand...


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## Fellewell (1 July 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			I did answer questions, We gave links with the answer, but didn't answer speculations. There was one question I refused to answer, that was about the dead of my horse with liverfailure, every dead from liverfailure is very nasty.
I gave a lot of reference to scientific literature, I gave the link to the FOI and the cases at Liverpool university. There where NO cases.
The problem in this discussion is, somebody got angry, other readers repeat that anger or fear and didn't look what whe wrote. 
In my OP I also told a bit how we solved the problem  in the Netherlands and did a suggestion how you can do that also. And I can tell some more, we did really went to the government, I think in UK it is called house of commons. We did asked them to help for ragwort free hay, it is European law now. We also got a lot  of help from experts from different university's and the EU panel did investigation about the ragwort problem on facts. The EU panel are specialits and worlwide leading authority's in toxicology. We didn't told anybody ragwort isn't poisonous, we did told not every method is good if you want your pasture free of ragwort. Angry people, and people who are afraid can't believe that.
		
Click to expand...

The death of your horse is entirely relevant to this discussion.
You volunteered this information in your first post and your somewhat emotional response to my question belies the scientific bias you claim to have towards research on this subject.
Is this crusade of yours driven by some misplaced guilt on your part because of the death, from liver failure, of your six year old mare?
Is this an attempt to somehow exonerate yourself from blame in a very public way?
All I can say is that if blood test/biopsy results on your mare were inconclusive then you really have no right to come on here and lecture us on pasture management. Get your own house in order first.


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## cptrayes (1 July 2012)

Fellewell said:



			Is this crusade of yours driven by some misplaced guilt on your part because of the death, from liver failure, of your six year old mare?
		
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I've been guessing the same Fellewell. My guess is that there was some live ragwort in Esther's grazing when her mare died. And in order to tell herself that she was not to blame for that death, she has blamed her hay and crusaded to have hay certificated in her country (which is very laudable) and also to persuade the world that live ragwort in grazing is not unsafe unless the horse has no grass and eats it from starvation.

Either that, or she genuinely does love the cinnabar moth.


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## cptrayes (1 July 2012)

Does anyone think hay certification would actually be any use? It does not really guarantee you that there is no ragwort at all in your hay, it just means that if you can prove your horse suffered from ragwort poisoning from certificated hay you could sue the seller. That proof would be almost impossible to obtain. 

In this country we have two ways of obtaining guaranteed ragwort free hay - see it growing just before it is cut, if late cut, or in ragwort flowering season the year before. This is what I do.

Buy bagged commercial forage grown specifically for horses. Extremely unlikely to contain ragwort, but very expensive.

Would many people buy "certificated" hay if it cost more? With the huge proportion of people in this country who keep their horses in a livery stable and have to feed the forage with which they are provided, would it make much of a real difference in this country?

Is this some thing we should try to set up in this country, or not?


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## rhino (1 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Does anyone think hay certification would actually be any use? It does not really guarantee you that there is no ragwort at all in your hay, it just means that if you can prove your horse suffered from ragwort poisoning from certificated hay you could sue the seller. That proof would be almost impossible to obtain. 

Is this some thing we should try to set up in this country, or not?
		
Click to expand...

Having looked into it, I don't think so. It is already illegal to sell food for animals which contains the toxic alkaloids found in ragwort, so it is surely a case of better identification and strict penalties for anyone caught selling it.

Feeding Stuffs (Scotland) Regulations 2000

Feeding Stuffs (England) Regulations 2005


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## cptrayes (1 July 2012)

Intresting Rhino. So we already have more than the protection that Esther has set up in Holland, but we didn't realise it (or I didn't anyway).  Thanks for that.


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## Fellewell (1 July 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I've been guessing the same Fellewell. My guess is that there was some live ragwort in Esther's grazing when her mare died. And in order to tell herself that she was not to blame for that death, she has blamed her hay and crusaded to have hay certificated in her country (which is very laudable) and also to persuade the world that live ragwort in grazing is not unsafe unless the horse has no grass and eats it from starvation.

Either that, or she genuinely does love the cinnabar moth.
		
Click to expand...

Whatever it is I'm getting tired of trying to read her mind, not to mention all the spurious 'evidence'.


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## jakkibag (1 July 2012)

Sorry to add to this, but i keep coming back to this thread to find out what its all about, ie what it is exactly about and after fifty pages, i still have no idea what they want us to do, that we arent already?  Am i just being thick?


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## rhino (1 July 2012)

jakkibag said:



			Sorry to add to this, but i keep coming back to this thread to find out what its all about, ie what it is exactly about and after fifty pages, i still have no idea what they want us to do, that we arent already?  Am i just being thick?

Click to expand...

Sorry to tell you you're just being thick  Join the 'thickos' bench with the rest of us 

Actually, in order to investigate HHO's hysteria involving ragwort poisoning, I did a little search earlier. In the last 3 months, and over 20000 threads, ragwort poisoning has been mentioned 10 times. 

Now parelli, rugging, or keeping horses barefoot would be a different story 

I'm thinking that none of them actually understand what the word 'hysteria' means anyway


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## Goldenstar (2 July 2012)

jakkibag said:



			Sorry to add to this, but i keep coming back to this thread to find out what its all about, ie what it is exactly about and after fifty pages, i still have no idea what they want us to do, that we arent already?  Am i just being thick?

Click to expand...

I think and I may be wrong they want us to use our paddocks as ragwort sancutarys , and I think the might like us to do something nasty to poor professor Knottenbent.


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## Silent Knight (2 July 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I think and I may be wrong they want us to use our paddocks as ragwort sancutarys , and I think the might like us to do something nasty to poor professor Knottenbent.
		
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We don't need to turn our paddocks into ragwort sancturies....The Highways department have already done that with the motorways.


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## rhino (2 July 2012)

Lord knows why, I suppose it's an alternative to self flagellation, but I'm still trying to make _some_ sense of what is going on here.

From Esther's site




			1) Paragraph 4.1.1 in a report from the World Health Organization in 1988 (4). 

Which can be found  here and states:

_Brauchli et al. (1982) compared the 
    oral and percutaneous absorption in rats of a crude alkaloid 
    mixture obtained from comfrey.  A dose of 194 mg/kg was 
    either given by gavage, or was applied to the shaved skin and left 
    for 44 h.  After the dermal application, the excreted  N-oxides in 
    urine (up to 48 h) amounted to 0.1 - 0.4% of the dose.  After oral 
    dosage the excreted level of  N-oxides and alkaloid bases was quoted 
    as being 20 - 50 times greater._

Regarding absorption of pyrrolizidine alkaloids through the skin this report refers to an article written by Brauchli and colleagues (5).

A summary of which is found here and states:

_The percutaneous absorption of these alkaloids was investigated in rats, using a crude alcoholic extract of the plant corresponding to a dose of 194 mg alkaloid-N-oxides/kg b.wt. The excretion of N-oxides in the urine during 2 days was in the range of 0.1&#8211;0.4% of the dose. The dermally absorbed N-oxides are not or only to a small extent converted to the free alkaloids in the organism. The oral application led to a 20&#8211;50 times higher excretion of N-oxides and free alkaloids in the urine._

Note the 'or only to a small extent' 

These scientists state that toxicological research on rats has proved that the pyrrolizidine alkaloids from the roots of comfrey (Symphytum officinale, Borganinaceae) can be absorbed through the skin. However, the amount of absorbed pyrrolizidine alkaloids appears to be much lower than when they where administered orally. The amount of pyrrolizidine alkaloids found in the urine of the rats was 20 to 50 times less than was measured when it was given orally. As long as the plant has not been eaten the pyrrolizidine alkaloids are in a N-oxide form and are not poisonous. How do you make that decisive conclusion with the caveat added to the above 'or only to a small extent' When the plant is eaten they are transformed, mostly in the small intestine, into free alkaloids that are poisonous and that will damage the liver. The treatise of Brauchli and colleagues (1984) Which is where? It is not apparent upon literature search, and really demonstrates the lack of coherency of referencing on your site states that pyrrolizidine alkaloids that are absorbed through the skin are rarely, if ever, transformed into free alkaloids. We have not been able to find any more recent scientific studies on this subject.

So how did you get from this, to the following?

Through our research about the sources of the reports on the danger of touching ragwort, we conclude that there is no substantial evidence that there is a health risk for people. The amount of pyrrolizidine alkaloids that might be absorbed through the skin is very low and there is no proof that these alkaloids are being changed into a toxic form.
		
Click to expand...

Where is your research then? Why is it not included in your references?  Surely if there had been any studies which back up your opinion, you would be happy to list them on your site? _Haven't_ there been any further studies?

This is such a non event, scientifically  One study, carried out in 1982 on a few rats...


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## LittleWildOne (2 July 2012)

It's a crusade for world domination, to force everyone to love ragwort 
"You MUST LOVE RAGWORT or You vill DIE ! " 

On here - http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/forums/environment-forum/42571-ragwort-hysteria.html
They are even comparing ragwort poisoning to Equine Grass Sickness !
One person states - "The do not remove the grass which is statistically more of a risk to horses though Equine Grass Sickness which is commoner than ragwort poisoning!". WELL, I'm sorry but if these people are Entomologists as some claim to be, they would KNOW that "grass sickness" isn't caused by the grass , but then, THEY are right and the rest of the world is wrong .

As for hysteria, WHO is it that is spreading childish little stories all over the internet ? NOT us . It is THEY who are HYSTERICAL, just look at their manner of posting their opinions.


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## hairycob (2 July 2012)

Did I get it right. Do they really beleive that the cinnabar Moth is declining because there has been so much habitat loss that sometimes there are metres between plants? I have to say that if the poor little moths can't survive on the vast amount of ragwort that is on the field margins & verges around here they deserve to die.
Funnily enough out hacking yesterday we went through a huge area (about 200 acres) that a local farmer keeps as a nature area. It's unmanaged apart from planting new trees, putting up nest boxes etc - no grazing at all. We rode the length of the area & didn't see one ragwort depite the grass being quite thin & poor. How unfair is that. I would be quite happy to see ragwort thriving there as it's well away from any grazing at all. My lawn - thick & lush - has sprouted 3 ragworts. I've been here 11 years & have no idea where they have come from if the seeds really never spread more than a few yards. As my next door neighbours paddocks are just yards away I will be bringing home my ragfork tonight to erradicate it.


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## pootleperkin (2 July 2012)

rhino said:



			Lord knows why, I suppose it's an alternative to self flagellation, but I'm still trying to make _some_ sense of what is going on here.

Where is your research then? Why is it not included in your references?  Surely if there had been any studies which back up your opinion, you would be happy to list them on your site? _Haven't_ there been any further studies?

This is such a non event, scientifically  One study, carried out in 1982 on a few rats...
		
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Rhino,

I looked at the list of references on the site a little while ago and came to the conclusion, like you, that although Esther and Co keep going on about 'their research', what they actually mean is their 'review of the literature', because as far as I can see there are no original research papers from any Dutch authors later than 2000 (correct me if I am wrong). So 'they' don't have any 'research', at least in the scientific sense.

I also came to the same conclusion about the skin absorption aspect - work done on rats in 1982 and no other papers cited on the subject. To say, categorically, that there is no risk if pulling with bare hands, isn't perhaps best practice based solely on this paper (that there is only one paper on the subject also shows how much interest there is in this field!). Certainly the rat study indicates there is no great risk, but if they are going to be so vehement about this safety aspect, perhaps they should ask their real scientist friends to do a controlled human study and see what they find. I'm sure all of their friends would volunteer to be guinea pigs......

Actually, I'm not madly worried about the skin absortion aspect, but then I'm not pulling loads of ragwort. If I was, I would wear gloves anyway.


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## hest (2 July 2012)

On a practical note:

*whispers, in case Esther hears* 

Natural England is the only authority licensed to deal with ragwort control under the Weeds Act (not the council). 

At this time of year the number of calls NE receive about ragwort increase massively as the plants start to come into flower and become more visible and therefore identifiable.

Calls include those from complainants concerned about the spread of ragwort from neighbouring properties. 

NE will only get involved if the person lodging the complaint has made every reasonable effort to resolve the problem themselves. So the complainant has to have contacted the ragwort offender personally to explain the problem, and how it is adversely affecting their land/grazing/hay crop or whatever. 

The above may seem an obvious point, but, of the many calls NE get about ragwort in a year, they can only act on a small percentage of complaints. This is in part because it turns out that callers haven't, won't or can't (for whatever reason) try to resolve the issue themselves with direct communication. There are also other criteria to meet before NE will act on complaints.

NE are as financially stretched at the moment as any other agency or organisation and, to send out a field adviser to every call and complaint about ragwort control would obviously be expensive. 

So if anyone is having control problems, talk to the other party first about it before taking it any further (although this is obviously not always easy).


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## JanetGeorge (2 July 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			I also came to the same conclusion about the skin absorption aspect - work done on rats in 1982 and no other papers cited on the subject. To say, categorically, that there is no risk if pulling with bare hands, isn't perhaps best practice based solely on this paper (that there is only one paper on the subject also shows how much interest there is in this field!). Certainly the rat study indicates there is no great risk, but if they are going to be so vehement about this safety aspect, perhaps they should ask their real scientist friends to do a controlled human study and see what they find. I'm sure all of their friends would volunteer to be guinea pigs......
		
Click to expand...

I'd be interested to know how one can draw any conclusions from a comparison with rats.  After all, rats eat all sorts of things that would make us throw up!  And there is no WAY you can get rats to pull ragwort up with their feet - sweaty hands, perhaps some light abrasion from the stalky stems, would pre-dispose to absorption in humans.


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## TrasaM (2 July 2012)

I've been keeping track of this thread and wisdom says keep out of it but my alalytics brain says the following.
1. There is only one conclusive way to establish the level of skin absorption of ragworth and I can't see many human volunteers coming forward.  Therefore erring on the side of caution seems wise. Wear gloves /wash hands.
The rat tests results I found involved comfrey. 

2. Casual observation of any field with ragworth growing in and animals grazing shows that they do indeed not eat it while it is growing. BUT if it's left to seed it invades all adjacent land. So sensible precaution..pull it before it seeds because although larger plants can be avoided smaller seedlings would be harder for the animal to spot. 


I've had a huge problem with ragworth in my garden because it's a new development on ex farmland. In the past few years the amount of it growing around here has exploded both in fields and roadsides.  Each year I pull it and poison it but it's back again the next year.  Im pretty sure that eradicating this plant is impossible so the moth can rest easy. Oddly I've also not seen any moths this year. I used to leave a ragworth plant growing for them at my old house and it used to be covered in caterpillars.


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## Nick Altena (2 July 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			I also came to the same conclusion about the skin absorption aspect - work done on rats in 1982 and no other papers cited on the subject. To say, categorically, that there is no risk if pulling with bare hands, isn't perhaps best practice based solely on this paper (that there is only one paper on the subject also shows how much interest there is in this field!). Certainly the rat study indicates there is no great risk, but if they are going to be so vehement about this safety aspect, perhaps they should ask their real scientist friends to do a controlled human study and see what they find. I'm sure all of their friends would volunteer to be guinea pigs......
		
Click to expand...

maybe you didn't see it... but the answer is quite simple if you know a little about this pyrrolizidine alkaloids

As long as the plant has not been eaten the pyrrolizidine alkaloids are in a N-oxide form and are not poisonous. When the plant is eaten they are transformed, mostly in the small intestine, into free alkaloids that are poisonous and that will damage the liver. 

Now please... can at least ONE of you explain to me how it will be poisonous when comming trough your skin and thus NOT passing your intestine/stomic ?


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## JanetGeorge (2 July 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Now please... can at least ONE of you explain to me how it will be poisonous when comming trough your skin and thus NOT passing your intestine/stomic ?
		
Click to expand...

And where does it end up??  And what if you are allergic to sesquiterpine lactones?  

Pulling small quantities of ragwort by hand is probably harmless to MOST people.  Pulling large quantities could be a different matter.  Until some substantive research is available, I'd prefer to be careful given I have had symptoms of poisoning as a result.  Of course, I may have been ill for a totally unrelated reason at the 'right' time - but I'm not a strong believer in that sort of co-incidence!


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## Alec Swan (2 July 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			maybe you didn't see it... but the answer is quite simple .......

Now please... can at least ONE of you explain to me how it will be poisonous when comming trough your skin and thus NOT passing your intestine/stomic ?
		
Click to expand...

How right you are,  the answer is indeed simple,  and I'd suggest that as you're so convinced that you're right,  why not offer yourself up as a guinea-pig,  with correctly monitored and conducted tests,  to have a daily skin application applied,  and then when the adjudicating scientists (and NO,  that doesn't include your lot),  are satisfied that you've had sufficient exposure,  then the relevant blood tests can be done.  Sorted. 

Alec.

Edited to add;  I'd also,  with respect,  suggest that you all wake up to the fact that we have a near perfect environment for your favourite moth,  they are none-the-less in decline,  and the truth of the matter is,  that we couldn't give a stuff! a.


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## LittleWildOne (2 July 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			Now please... can at least ONE of you explain to me how it will be poisonous when comming trough your skin and thus NOT passing your intestine/stomic ?
		
Click to expand...

 a REAL scientist would know about endosmosis


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## MerrySherryRider (2 July 2012)

It seems our friends are busy in spreading ragwort 'facts' everywhere on the net. Not content with censoring adverts for ragwort control in the UK, they have contributed to the wilkipedia information on the noxious weed too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobaea_vulgaris

Anyone interested can rate the information as biased or untrustworthy at the bottom of the page. Unfortunately, as scientific research is listed alongside less reputable sources, the article becomes very subjective.


   Anyone wondering why they continually give out links instead of answering direct questions will discover that a click boosts their google ratings from obscurity and gets them on the first page for anything to do with the weed. 

Incidentally the plant is also known as Stinking Willie and Mare's fart by country folk.


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## fatpiggy (2 July 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			maybe you didn't see it... but the answer is quite simple if you know a little about this pyrrolizidine alkaloids

As long as the plant has not been eaten the pyrrolizidine alkaloids are in a N-oxide form and are not poisonous. When the plant is eaten they are transformed, mostly in the small intestine, into free alkaloids that are poisonous and that will damage the liver. 

Now please... can at least ONE of you explain to me how it will be poisonous when comming trough your skin and thus NOT passing your intestine/stomic ?
		
Click to expand...


Nick, skin is the body's largest organ and rather well supplied with blood.  Lots of drugs are dangerous/fatal if absorbed through the skin.  How do think nicotine patches, suppositories, antiinflammatory gels work?  None of them go via the gut.  I have to handle potassium bromide on a daily basis and am supposed to wear gloves.  I don't and for the first few months suffered from an unusual number of muscle twitches.  A side effect of bromide is, oh yes, muscular twitching.

There is no danger of the cinnebar moth declining. There is more than enough ragwort on old rubbish tips, mine waste dumps, abandoned industrial sites, to feed the caterpillars.   There is plenty of such space. We just don't want ragwort growing in our pasture, that's all.  I'm willing to bet your fellow Netherlanders don't let weeds grow amongst their tulips, and clear them out.


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## rhino (2 July 2012)

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Any scientist would realise that.


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## LittleWildOne (2 July 2012)

The primary poisons in ragwort are jacobine and seneciphylline.
This link - http://www.chemicaldictionary.org/dic/S/Seneciphylline_293.html
gives you the chemical composition of seneciphylline.
The information in the link is based on seneciphylline in powder form, as it would be used in a laboratory environment.
Please read this information and decide for yourself as to whether or not you choose to handle ragwort without using any form of protection.
Bear in mind that the powdered form of seneciphylline will have been extracted from plants of the genus Senecio.
I certainly WILL NOT be handling ragwort without wearing protective gloves.

Here is a link to the Merck Veterinary Manual, giving information on Pyrrolizidine Alkaloidosis (Seneciosis, Senecio Poisoning, Ragwort Toxicity)
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/212800.htm.


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## cptrayes (2 July 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			maybe you didn't see it... but the answer is quite simple if you know a little about this pyrrolizidine alkaloids
		
Click to expand...

I think that's the problem Nick. You know a little about pyrrolizidine alkaloids and think that you know a lot.




Nick Altena said:



			As long as the plant has not been eaten the pyrrolizidine alkaloids are in a N-oxide form and are not poisonous. When the plant is eaten they are transformed, mostly in the small intestine, into free alkaloids that are poisonous and that will damage the liver.
		
Click to expand...

"mostly in the small intestine"? Where else?



Nick Altena said:



			Now please... can at least ONE of you explain to me how it will be poisonous when comming trough your skin and thus NOT passing your intestine/stomic ?
		
Click to expand...

Can you please point me to the research you have done which shows that pyrrolizidine alkaloids cannot be absorbed via the skin into the blood and then converted in the blood or in a receiving cell into poisonous free alkaloids?

Until you have such research you have no idea whether ragwort poisoning via the skin is possible or not, and until such time it would be wise for anyone handling ragwort in volume to wear gloves.


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## pootleperkin (2 July 2012)

Nick Altena said:



			maybe you didn't see it... but the answer is quite simple if you know a little about this pyrrolizidine alkaloids

As long as the plant has not been eaten the pyrrolizidine alkaloids are in a N-oxide form and are not poisonous. When the plant is eaten they are transformed, mostly in the small intestine, into free alkaloids that are poisonous and that will damage the liver. 

Now please... can at least ONE of you explain to me how it will be poisonous when comming trough your skin and thus NOT passing your intestine/stomic ?
		
Click to expand...

Nick, I didn't say that it can be absorbed through the skin, nor did I talk about the poisoning pathway. I freely admit I know little about these alkaloids. I know a little about scientific practice and critique and that is what I was concerned with. I was criticising the fact that evidence you are basing your argument upon is perhaps not definitive enough for you to provide such definitive advice.

What I said was that the only work that you guys cite on the subject was carried out solely on rats and that it wouldn't be best practice to categorically state that you could transpose or extrapolate these results directly to humans. If we could do that, then commercial drug trials for example, would never have to go through tertiary stage testing before appearing on the market. This is where things get sticky, as if you say categorically that something can't happen, then it does, then you get into trouble.

You are basing your hypothesis upon the belief that the rat and human metabolic systems are identical - certainly they are similar or else we wouldn't use them so regularly as a biological model. In this case, although the paper suggests that the risk is very low (and I accept that - no argument) they do find that a small amount was absorbed through the skin of the rat, so you cannot, definitively, say isn't absorbed from this study alone.  This is the pubmed abstract of the rat paper: just to note, it doesn't say what the population sample size was either, so I have no idea how powerful or robust the study is.

*********************************
Experientia. 1982 Sep 15;38(9):1085-7.
Pyrrolizidine alkaloids from Symphytum officinale L. and their percutaneous absorption in rats.
Brauchli J, Lüthy J, Zweifel U, Schlatter C.
Abstract

An analysis of a commercial sample of Symphyti radix originating from Poland with a total alkaloid content of 0.07% revealed the presence of 7 pyrrolizidine alkaloid-N-oxides: 7-acetyl intermedine, 7-acetyl lycopsamine as the main constituents and lycopsamine, intermedine, symphytine and traces of 2 further not yet identified alkaloids. The percutaneous absorption of these alkaloids was investigated in rats, using a crude alcoholic extract of the plant corresponding to a dose of 194 mg alkaloid-N-oxides/kg b.wt. The excretion of N-oxides in the urine during 2 days was in the range of 0.1-0.4% of the dose. The dermally absorbed N-oxides are not or only to a small extent converted to the free alkaloids in the organism. The oral application led to a 20-50 times higher excretion of N-oxides and free alkaloids in the urine.

********************************************
So in this study, in rats, 0.1 - 0.4% of the alkaloid dose was excreted in the urine. This is a very small amount, but the authors cannot say that none of the dose was converted to free alkaloids in the organism via the skin. It is very evident that the oral admin. produces a significantly higher level of excretion. 

Look, I agree with you, on the evidence of this single study, the risk looks very low, but you have to understand that you cannot be so definitive in your findings, particularly when transposing from one species to another. Ideally in pharmo research, you would do the same study on at least one other, non-rodent species, if you are to effectively extrapolate to humans.

I should add that I have no idea how relevant the dose that was given in this study would be in comparison to exposure in the real world. Also, I'm not a biochemist, so I have no idea on other pathways that could led to the production of the free alkaloids in humans.


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## pootleperkin (2 July 2012)

PS - Rhino, I know you already went through this abstract, but it looks as if some people didn't notice 

Oh, and like you, I couldn't find any other or more recent studies on alkaloid skin absorption either......


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## Alec Swan (2 July 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			.......

....... We don't tell YOU how to stick your finger in a dyke!
		
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Mrs B said:



*quietly opens a book with self to take bets on whether Alec will be able to resist a comment when/if he reads the last line of JG's post... *

Click to expand...

Hardly a subject upon which I feel qualified to comment,  having lived a sheltered life.  And anyway,  I'd only offend some one. 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (2 July 2012)

fatpiggy said:



			.......

I'm willing to bet your fellow Netherlanders don't let weeds grow amongst their tulips, and clear them out.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah,  that's a point,  if your that bloody keen on the horrible weed,  plant it amongst your tulips.  With luck you'll have cornered the market in both Ragwort and Cinnabar moths. 

Alec.


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## Kallibear (2 July 2012)

So, we seem to have estblished that the 'myth' they've had enough of is it's absorbable through the skin? Yes?

Frankly honest: I don't care?! 

I have not conclusively proved that it IS poisonous thorugh the skin absorbtion. 
You have not conclusively proved it ISN'T poisionous skin absorbtion. 

Therefore the _responsible _advice would be 'wear gloves just in case'........... I still fail to see how that's a 'hysterical over-reaction' piece of advice!? And therefore they whole point of this thread?!


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## pootleperkin (2 July 2012)

It's the fact that they use the word 'hysterical' all the time that has kept me wasting my time on this thread! Highly annoying!

Just a ridiculous thing to say - if folk were less provocative, they might find that people take their thoughts more seriously.


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## Miss L Toe (12 July 2012)

But they would not get 561 posts!


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## Pale Rider (13 July 2012)

57 pages, 

Really impressed.

I think I'll start one on the benefits of horseflies.


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## MerrySherryRider (13 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			57 pages, 

Really impressed.

I think I'll start one on the benefits of horseflies.
		
Click to expand...

Only works if you are strangely insane.


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## andraste (13 July 2012)

Wow.  That's a couple of hours of my life that I'll never get back and all I have learned is that the two Dutch ragwort enthusiasts seem to have a very flimsy grasp of what 'panic' and 'hysteria' actually mean.  Possibly the most bizarre thread I've ever read on here.


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## NoseyPosey (28 July 2012)

I just thought I'd mention that I dug a couple of bits of ragwort out of our field today <cue evil laughter> I was going to video it & send to to Holland but I simply couldn't be arsed. Instead I revelled in the delight of seeing the evil weed burn in petrol fuelled flames of delight at the end of the garden when I got home


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## hackedoff (28 July 2012)

I know personally of one horse who died due to ragwort poisoning. Horses will eat grass out of preference but in the UK ragwort is a major problem as it is spread by the motoway verges, set aside and morons who decide not to treat their fields.


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## EstherHegt (22 August 2012)

Don't think people got the message about pasture management and their responsibililty for a safe pasture. See BHS website http://www.bhs.org.uk/Horse_Care/BHS_Welfare/Reporting_a_concern.aspx


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## Tnavas (22 August 2012)

??????????? - think every responsible horse owner knkows what they must do to ensure their horses safe welfare. This is not a report but information for BHS members who feel that there is a horse or horses not being properly cared for.

No matter how concientous you are aboout removing ragwort it is a stubborn determined weed to control.

To be honest Esther can you not go and bug a Dutch web site and leave UK horse owners to fight the battle of the ragwort themselves.


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## Ladydragon (22 August 2012)

*sigh*  It had been so nicely quiet for a while too...

Some people don't take responsibility for their health or even their children...  Why should pasture management be any different...


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## LittleWildOne (22 August 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Don't think people got the message about pasture management and their responsibililty for a safe pasture. See BHS website http://www.bhs.org.uk/Horse_Care/BHS_Welfare/Reporting_a_concern.aspx

Click to expand...

And your point is ? 
Your link goes to a page that has always been there. It's called information .
Not EVERYONE is born a "know it all ".
Don't you have anything better to do than continually b*tch about how we do things in our own country ?
I notice that you don't join in on any other part of the forum, you know, to talk about horses.
For your information, organisations like the BHS are there for the benefit of horse owners. At certain times of the year, EVERY year, they run AWARENESS campaigns. This is for the benefit of people who are new to horses, first time owners for example. Not everyone knows what strangles is. Not everyone knows that you shouldn't breed from any old mare, JUST because it has a womb. Not everyone knows about the dangers of riding on the roads. Not everyone knows about poisonous plants. These INFORMATION pages exist to help NEW horse owners to LEARN about these things. There is NOTHING hysterical about this, it is called EDUCATION. 

And YES, lots of people are pulling ragwort as part of REGULAR PASTURE MANAGEMENT !


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## Capriole (22 August 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Don't think people got the message about pasture management and their responsibililty for a safe pasture. See BHS website http://www.bhs.org.uk/Horse_Care/BHS_Welfare/Reporting_a_concern.aspx

Click to expand...

What message?  Your message!?  You're just someone who pops up and posts hysterical rants now and then, any message you might have is lost beause you've just turned yourself into a bit of a sideshow.


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## pootleperkin (22 August 2012)

EstherHegt said:



			Don't think people got the message about pasture management and their responsibililty for a safe pasture. See BHS website http://www.bhs.org.uk/Horse_Care/BHS_Welfare/Reporting_a_concern.aspx

Click to expand...

I think some things *might* be lost in translation as the above doesn't make any sense to me, either at present, or in the context of the enormous, previous ramblings......


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## rhino (22 August 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			I think some things *might* be lost in translation as the above doesn't make any sense to me, either at present, or in the context of the enormous, previous ramblings......
		
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Unless she's trying to say that no animal is *ever* abused or neglected in her country?  Funny that they have their own animal charities to report such cases to then.

http://www.dierenbescherming.nl/contact-meld-dierenmishandeling

In fact, here on their horse site they state that there are, in fact, thousands of reported welfare cases in equines annually. 

http://paarden.dierenbescherming.nl/misverstanden


And while we're posting spurious links, here is one I deem suitable

Really important ragworty type information


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 August 2012)

rhino said:



			And while we're posting spurious links, here is one I deem suitable

Really important ragworty type information

 

Click to expand...



TFF toddles off to put that onto the boss's PC as his screen saver 

I thank you Rhino  your input into this thread, with THAT link is much more informative that the young lady from overseas who tries to put other places in order before her own ..................


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## rhino (22 August 2012)

I'm glad you found it _informative_ TFF


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## pootleperkin (22 August 2012)

rhino said:



			And while we're posting spurious links, here is one I deem suitable

Really important ragworty type information

Like 

Click to expand...


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## MerrySherryRider (22 August 2012)

Brilliant Rhino. so very helpful. Perhaps you could do introductions for Msss Ragwort and Msss Greenwich.
They have so much in common, they could post each other random links endlessly.


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## hairycob (23 August 2012)

Now I'm totally confused. I thought we were hysterically slaughtering ragwort. Has that now changed are we now being neglectful & not getting rid of it?


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## Hairy Old Cob (23 August 2012)

Looking at the posts I think this Thread should be Pulled Like all ragwort plants.


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## Tnavas (23 August 2012)

Hairy Old Cob said:



			Looking at the posts I think this Thread should be Pulled Like all ragwort plants.
		
Click to expand...

 No - where would we all meet together so often! 

We should become a clique - 'Death to Ragwort by Torture Clique'


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## EstherHegt (23 August 2012)

rhino said:



			Unless she's trying to say that no animal is *ever* abused or neglected in her country?  Funny that they have their own animal charities to report such cases to then.
		
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Ha Ruth ;-) 
What we did was find experts in the fields of biology, biochemistry and veterinary to learn more about the subject and  form a well-founded opinion. Not brainwashing, and we are polite ;-) 
We never say we have no ragwort, or abuse, I also never sayed that at Horse and Hound, what I tried toe do was stop the myths and find realistic options, pulling can make it worse, the nice thing is google find this.


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## EstherHegt (23 August 2012)

And be honest, the pictures we see in the papers are thise ( bit scroll) http://www.thepoisongarden.co.uk/blog/blog060911.htm
Isn't that neglect from pasture and horses? 
I don't think your  pastures are the same. This kind of pictures are in the media.


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## pootleperkin (24 August 2012)

To be honest Esther, you do see that kind of pasture over here, if by your last comment you think we do not. I live in the north and only have to drive for 20 mins to find lots of fields that look like that in the north east of England, with lots of horses in them.

I would guess the majority of people who use this site know about ragwort, and these are the people that get upset about words like 'hysteria', because we know about it and can manage it appropriately. However, there are something like a million horses in the UK and some of them (quite a few) live in fields  like that one in the picture - horses are owned by all sorts of people here, from the very educated, very rich, to people who keep a pony on an allotment or small garden and those who think that ponies can live on daisies and rainbows (!) - I think that is where the UK differs from your country, in terms of the sheer spectrum of owners and places they are kept  - though I may be incorrect?

I have direct experience of one such owner - an 'aquaintance' had hers in a field like that in the picture - no grass, lots of ragwort, a situation where the horse will eat the plant - and did. In the end, despite a couple of people telling her the risk her horse was in, she couldn't be bothered to get rid of the ragwort and there is no question that her horse died due to liver failure from ragwort poisoning. She 'loved' the horse, but was just a bit, can I say, of an idiot, as she didn't think it would happen to her horse. It wouldn't matter how you told her to 'manage' her pasture - she was too lazy to do so. 

The reason the BHS and other charities do make a bit of a fuss each year is to reach people like that. Some folk can't even be bothered to go and see their horse every day (I know this one didn't always), let alone even contemplate pasture management like you suggest. For these people, getting them to pull up ragwort is a breakthrough and probably the best line of defence, rather than thinking about more sophisticated measures as you suggest. In some areas, ragwort in pasture is the norm, so you really do have to shout about it to get people to remove it - they don't realise the risk.

As we said, you are preaching mostly to the converted here on HHO - whether we pull the ragwort by the roots with a specialist fork, manage the grass sward or whatever, we DO manage it effectively. It is the 'other' types of owners that need to be reached, but most likely, they don't want to be reached, nor would they or could afford to put into practice measures other than pulling.

Does this help you understand?


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## EstherHegt (12 October 2013)

I don't think you read my website.


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## dogatemysalad (12 October 2013)

EstherHegt said:



			I don't think you read my website.
		
Click to expand...

I read it. What a strange agenda you have. Why not just be honest and say your priority is the conservation of insects and not horses ? 
 It's blindingly obvious.


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## EstherHegt (12 October 2013)

Didn't read this also? http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...eded-please-(also-in-NL)&highlight=EstherHegt 
Ii have no agenda. only thing what I want is prevention. NO prejustice about the facts.


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## cptrayes (13 October 2013)

Esther you have restarted a thread that died in peace a year ago. Please let it rest!

Don't encourage her folks


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## EstherHegt (14 October 2013)

@ cptrayes, You are right, it is a waste of time. I only wrote about myths, example  ragwort isn't a good winddispenser, there aren't 6500 dead horses in a year, horses don't eat fresh ragwort, and skin absorption is a myth.  The silly thing is people are angry or afraid that they let fooled themselfe and don t think in solutions. Also maybe a lack of reading because people do think I am owner of different websites. ( good websites about ragwort with solutions)  So let it be. But after this discussion I got a lot of mails and could help people with their ragwort problem, and that was not a waste of time!!!


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## Queenbee (14 October 2013)

Couldn't resist.....















YAWN


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## cptrayes (14 October 2013)

What have we done wrong in a previous life for this thread to be brought back to life repeating the same old stuff again?

It must have been bad  whatever it was


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## Queenbee (14 October 2013)

Personally, I reckon it's this life I'm being punished for...


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## cptrayes (14 October 2013)

Queenbee said:



			Personally, I reckon it's this life I'm being punished for... 

Click to expand...

That sounds interesting .... tell us more!!


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## EstherHegt (14 October 2013)

Believing myths perhaps ;-)


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## The Fuzzy Furry (14 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			What have we done wrong in a previous life for this thread to be brought back to life repeating the same old stuff again?

It must have been bad  whatever it was 

Click to expand...

Nah CPT, its just long dark evenings & wet weather that brings muppets out to attract interest in their own propaganda - isn't that right OP?


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## cptrayes (14 October 2013)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Nah CPT, its just long dark evenings & wet weather that brings muppets out to attract interest in their own propaganda - isn't that right OP?
		
Click to expand...

Oh no! You mean this could go on all winter. I'll lose  the will to live.


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## Tnavas (14 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			What have we done wrong in a previous life for this thread to be brought back to life repeating the same old stuff again?

It must have been bad  whatever it was 

Click to expand...

How the hell she managed to find the thread again is quite amazing considering the thousands of interesting threads that have been posted since this hysterical (and I don't mean the funny type of hysterical) waffle was originally posted.

WE do actually know how to deal with ragwort and without myths there would be no churches!


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## Buddy'sMum (14 October 2013)

Tnavas said:



			...without myths there would be no churches!
		
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Uh-oh ;-)


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## _GG_ (14 October 2013)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Uh-oh ;-)
		
Click to expand...

Made I giggle this did


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## EstherHegt (14 October 2013)

_GG_ said:



			Made I giggle this did 

Click to expand...

 I also! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G_zSos8w_I  But to be serious.... read what I wrote and think about the ragwort lies and what the press did, keep the horses healthy by good management.


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## _GG_ (14 October 2013)

EstherHegt said:



			I also! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G_zSos8w_I  But to be serious.... read what I wrote and think about the ragwort lies and what the press did, keep the horses healthy by good management.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks but I don't need to. I never believe anything I read online or am told or see in a newspaper or magazine. I take it on board then go and do my own research which is what I would always advise anyone else to do. 

So, to that end...go forth and research people...oh, hang on...most of us already have


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## EstherHegt (14 October 2013)

So, to that end...go forth and research people...oh, hang on...most of us already have [/QUOTE]

I like critical thinking skills, so why don t you stop repeating the myths in press? Do you really believe 6500 horses dies in UK each year? Do you really believe each seed becomes an adult plant? Do you really believe UK is a poor agricultural country without management?


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## Tnavas (14 October 2013)

EstherHegt said:



			I also! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G_zSos8w_I  But to be serious.... read what I wrote and think about the ragwort lies and what the press did, keep the horses healthy by good management.
		
Click to expand...

Please go and annoy your own countrymen and leave ours alone - or are they also sick of you?

Hey folks - think we are encouraging her!


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## cptrayes (14 October 2013)

Oh please Esther give it a rest. 


You are boring us all to tears, can't you spend your spare time campaigning to stop your countrymen giving their pigs so much worse welfare standards than UK pigs have, or something that actually matters?


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## _GG_ (14 October 2013)

EstherHegt said:



			So, to that end...go forth and research people...oh, hang on...most of us already have 

Click to expand...

I like critical thinking skills, so why don t you stop repeating the myths in press? Do you really believe 6500 horses dies in UK each year? Do you really believe each seed becomes an adult plant? Do you really believe UK is a poor agricultural country without management?[/QUOTE]

I am not the press, don't aim such trite crap at me. This is borderline phishing now from you with the links you've shared and keep pushing. I'm out


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## EstherHegt (14 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			You are boring us all to tears, can't you spend your spare time campaigning to stop your countrymen giving their pigs so much worse welfare standards than UK pigs have, or something that actually matters?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe start another discusion and think in solutions ( without pigs? ) and about solutions? What happened in UK is so idiot. ragwort was always in Europe, it is a native plant. Good farmers know the plant. What is happened in house of commons is they compared the plant in country's it is not a native plant. PA poisoning is to prevent.


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## cptrayes (14 October 2013)

I see your English hasn't improved any in the year you've been away Esther.

It's better than my Dutch, but then I don't post on Dutch forums telling Dutch people that they don't know how to look after their horses.

Please stop, it really is rude.


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## Capriole (14 October 2013)

Oh Jeez.

I wonder if there's some sort of chemical spray we could use when she's in her dormant stage? EstX., or something? 

I'd buy that.


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## EstherHegt (14 October 2013)

Thanks very much my English is improved. I feel sorry for you that you do think I tell how your horses are ok. I only write about the biology about ragwort and what you can do about that, I only wrote there are a lot of myths that people made afraid. What happened in this discussion is people where angry when I said I have had it with the myths. The myths ar : 6500 dead horses a year. 2 : each plant makes 150.000 seeds ( that must be VERY BIG plants) and every plant becomes an adult plant 3: It is a very good wind dispenser. 4: the skin absoption myth.  What I tell is when you manage the pasture there is not a big problem. It is very strange that in UK you see pics in press with neglected pastures and horses and blame ragwort for the neglect. Hay is a problem, but in a good hayfield is a dense sward, buy good hay. That is what I tell. I don't say to people you are bad, I say stop with the pasture neglect and blame ragwort for that.


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## cptrayes (14 October 2013)

Capriole said:



			Oh Jeez.

I wonder if there's some sort of chemical spray we could use when she's in her dormant stage? EstX., or something? 

I'd buy that.
		
Click to expand...



But we would need a tanker load


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## Capriole (14 October 2013)

If we do a collection, I'm in for a tenner and whatever's down the back of the sofas.


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## micramadam (14 October 2013)

Esther you'd be better off lecturing your own countrymen for lack of pasture management. I have seen more fields over here with ragwort and horses than in the UK. A lot of people over here don't do anything about it making it almost an impossible for those of us who do care about our animals. I believe it is more of an issue here in the Netherlands because pastures are so much smaller therefore increasing the risk that horses accidentally eat the bloody stuff or are forced to eat it because there is no grass. That is, the ones who do actually get turned out because their owners are not frightened they will hurt themselves and actually let them be horses!


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## micramadam (14 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			But we would need a tanker load 

Click to expand...

Do you want me to deliver it?


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## Tnavas (14 October 2013)

Blah, blah, blah, blah and more blah, blah, blah, blah, YAWN

Esther your English has not improved - otherwise you would understand we are sick of your repetitive posts and we would like you to go away and leave our site and Ragwort alone.

GOODBYE!


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## EstherHegt (14 October 2013)

micramadam said:



			Esther you'd be better off lecturing your own countrymen for lack of pasture management.
		
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I did at the ragwort symposium and my Dutch website, the ragwort symposium was important.  Also important was the EFSA  ( European Food Safety Authority )


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## EstherHegt (14 October 2013)

Tnavas said:



			Blah, blah, blah, blah and more blah, blah, blah, blah, YAWN

Esther your English has not improved - otherwise you would understand we are sick of your repetitive posts and we would like you to go away and leave our site and Ragwort alone.

GOODBYE!
		
Click to expand...

Sure I know you don't like me, but does that mean I have to keep my knowledge and don t share that?


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## cptrayes (15 October 2013)

micramadam said:



			Do you want me to deliver it?
		
Click to expand...

Done!  I'll order it and you can apply it. I wonder if we have to wait until it's dormant again, or whether it's effective against  an active outbreak?


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## Queenbee (15 October 2013)




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## GrumpyHero (15 October 2013)

Wagtail said:



			OP, are you an orange and black caterpillar by any chance?
		
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I haven't bothered to read anywhere near the 60 odd page length of this thread - but this really tickled me!


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## RunToEarth (15 October 2013)

Oh my this thread made a come back! 

Esther - did you not hear? Us English were never too concerned about the "myths" it is just a fugly looking plant that is better off erradicated, I'd rather cheese grate my own eyeballs than have to look at those dirty yellow flowers every day.


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## Mrs B (15 October 2013)

*groans* Oh God! We obviously didn't get rid of the whole root. It's come back ... *toddles off to find the Paraquat*


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## Queenbee (15 October 2013)

Mrs B said:



			*groans* Oh God! We obviously didn't get rid of the whole root. It's come back ... *toddles off to find the Paraquat*
		
Click to expand...


Fab post ^^^


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## Cragrat (15 October 2013)

Esther, how about YOU read THIS:
http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/ragwort

I don't care if it's one horse a year, it's one too many suffering a death like this.

Ragwort doesn't belong in any field, and all owners need to understand the facts of the pain and suffering it can cause. Then eradicate the ugly eyesore. The moths can sod off and find something else!


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## MadJ (16 October 2013)

There's no veterinary studies to say that making my horses live off bacon sandwiches and hob nobs will kill them, doesn't mean I'm going to do it. It's a fact that ragwort kills.

Maybe there needs to be a study in to the psychological effects of long term ragwort exposure on a human.
Where to find the perfect candidate......


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## hairycob (16 October 2013)

Talking of myths a friend of mine believed that no horse would ever eat fresh ragwort until she caught her horse taking it out of the barrow as she pulled the stuff. 
The horse was pts for other reasons & the hunt had to condemn the liver. That says more to me than any dutch site.


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## cptrayes (16 October 2013)

I've got one too. When I pulled four self seeded plants out last year, one had been partly eaten 

I'm not sure even paraquat will be enough to rid us of Esther, though.


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## cptrayes (16 October 2013)

MadJ said:



			Maybe there needs to be a study in to the psychological effects of long term ragwort exposure on a human.
Where to find the perfect candidate......
		
Click to expand...



Naughty


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## _GG_ (16 October 2013)

I have to say, I am genuinely grateful for ragwort!

Ragwort keeps my pastures looking fab because during my regular ragwort checks I can pick up on anything else that needs attention. 

Still, I'd much rather not having the stuff there in the first place!


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## Fellewell (16 October 2013)

EstherHegt said:



			Thanks very much my English is improved. I feel sorry for you that you do think I tell how your horses are ok. I only write about the biology about ragwort and what you can do about that, I only wrote there are a lot of myths that people made afraid. What happened in this discussion is people where angry when I said I have had it with the myths. The myths ar : 6500 dead horses a year. 2 : each plant makes 150.000 seeds ( that must be VERY BIG plants) and every plant becomes an adult plant 3: It is a *very good wind dispenser*. 4: the skin absoption myth.  What I tell is when you manage the pasture there is not a big problem. It is very strange that in UK you see pics in press with neglected pastures and horses and blame ragwort for the neglect. Hay is a problem, but in a good hayfield is a dense sward, buy good hay. That is what I tell. I don't say to people you are bad, I say stop with the pasture neglect and blame ragwort for that.
		
Click to expand...


Esther, dear, being rude about our pasture management again? You're becoming a bit of a wind dispenser yourself

Why devote so much of your time to a creature that is hellbent on being sauteed by a lightbulb?


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## Adopter (16 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			What have we done wrong in a previous life for this thread to be brought back to life repeating the same old stuff again?

It must have been bad  whatever it was 

Click to expand...

Pressing the like button.


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## Marydoll (16 October 2013)

Pmsl Loving the paraquat suggestion


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## misterjinglejay (17 October 2013)

Mrs B said:



			*groans* Oh God! We obviously didn't get rid of the whole root. It's come back ... *toddles off to find the Paraquat*
		
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Brilliant!


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## Shadow the Reindeer (17 October 2013)

Shheeesssee! A 64 page thread on Ragwort..... Going to get ready for work, and leave you guys to it.


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## MissMoo (17 October 2013)

Mrs B said:



			*groans* Oh God! We obviously didn't get rid of the whole root. It's come back ... *toddles off to find the Paraquat*
		
Click to expand...

Superb!!


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## pootleperkin (17 October 2013)

*Arrives with flame thrower gun-thing, like the one Ripley used to kill the Alien Queen in Aliens*

Right, you use the paraquat then I'll apply this to anything that's left!


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## dianchi (17 October 2013)

I think maybe its gone now (tempting fate on purpose here to see if all the "home" remedies have worked)


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## EstherHegt (21 October 2013)

This is what we say http://www.ragwort.org.uk/background-info/7-i/11-ragwort-poisoning-how-does-it-work


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## Buddy'sMum (22 October 2013)

EstherHegt said:



			This is what we say http://www.ragwort.org.uk/background-info/7-i/11-ragwort-poisoning-how-does-it-work

Click to expand...

Um, Esther, I really think you need to have a look at some of the references cited in this article. References should actually support the text!!


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## hnmisty (22 October 2013)

Shadeyoak said:



			Shheeesssee! A 64 page thread on Ragwort..... Going to get ready for work, and leave you guys to it.
		
Click to expand...

Jeez, I'm glad my head hurt so much by page 17 that I gave up then!

*toddles off to put head through door*


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

dianchi said:



			I think maybe its gone now (tempting fate on purpose here to see if all the "home" remedies have worked) 

Click to expand...

You blew it, it's back!!


Anyone got a flamethrower?


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## Capriole (22 October 2013)




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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

Capriole said:








Click to expand...


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## pootleperkin (22 October 2013)

Good to see Ripley has come in useful!


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## Fransurrey (22 October 2013)

Edited as I see this is an old thread. Lovely to hear from you Esther. Say, have you gained any credible qualifications, yet?


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## Fransurrey (22 October 2013)

Deleted as I really can't be bothered!!!!!!!!!


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## Wetenschapper (25 October 2013)

I actually don't know precisely what Esther Hegt's qualifications are but that is not at all relevant. I  rather suspect that most people here don't have relevant qualifications either.To know about such an esoteric subject in detail requires a great deal of effort and ability. Some people of course just openly admit that they "can't be bothered" to listen, but still seem rather bigoted. Her botanical knowledge however is utterly impeccable. She is regarded as an expert in the Netherlands and she knows her subject well. To even be able to put together such  resources as she has on the subject requires good technical knowledge and intelligence.

 If however you are looking for relevant qualifications, the co-author of the article she pointed you at recently on her website is Dr Pieter Pelser who most certainly is a* world leading expert on the subject of ragwort*. He is a researcher in the field, *with a PhD specifically on the plant in question. * Since such a well-known expert is prepared to work with her I think a sensible option would be to listen rather than to pour scorn.

There seems to be a great deal of unacceptable prejudice and discriminatory language against her in this form and people are risking looking like snobs. You are not dealing with some foreign oik or pleb don't you know old chaps  but someone who is knowledgeable about the subject about which she is talking. Just because someone has slightly flawed English does not mean they are not intelligent.


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## Mrs B (25 October 2013)

Oh dear. Now it's spread.

Have you read the entire thread? Have you not noticed that many people tried to explain just why ragwort IS a problem and why they try to eradicate it in areas where it will affect pasture and more importantly, forage crops?

And do you not rather think that after nearly forty thousand views and 645 replies - none of which agree with her, whatever her or her colleague's qualifications are - one could conclude that we agree to differ on the topic?

Well, you would have thought so, but it seems that Ester didn't want to take this into account in the slightest hence why posters lost their patience.
As for &#8216;effort&#8217;, &#8216;ability&#8217;, &#8216;intelligence&#8217;? You seem to be implying that none of us have any of these and therefore should take her word as Gospel: that a combined several hundreds of years of experience on this site of looking after horses should bow to her superior knowledge &#8230;

And you think _we&#8217;re_ snobs?

I suspect you are Pieter anyway, especially as you put those particular words in bold, just in case we were to thick to be impressed. 

*reaches for stronger Paraquat*


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## millsandboon (25 October 2013)

OMG he used the word PLEB!!


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## Mrs B (25 October 2013)

millsandboon said:



			OMG he used the word PLEB!!
		
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'Ere you! On yer bike ...


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## cptrayes (25 October 2013)

Wetenshapper you didn't actually read the thread, did you?

Can we get DDT from somwhere it's not banned?  How about Agent Orange, anyone got some tucked at the back of the garage???


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## Tnavas (26 October 2013)

Wetenschapper said:



			I actually don't know precisely what Esther Hegt's qualifications are but that is not at all relevant. I  rather suspect that most people here don't have relevant qualifications either.To know about such an esoteric subject in detail requires a great deal of effort and ability. Some people of course just openly admit that they "can't be bothered" to listen, but still seem rather bigoted. Her botanical knowledge however is utterly impeccable. She is regarded as an expert in the Netherlands and she knows her subject well. To even be able to put together such  resources as she has on the subject requires good technical knowledge and intelligence.

 If however you are looking for relevant qualifications, the co-author of the article she pointed you at recently on her website is Dr Pieter Pelser who most certainly is a* world leading expert on the subject of ragwort*. He is a researcher in the field, *with a PhD specifically on the plant in question. * Since such a well-known expert is prepared to work with her I think a sensible option would be to listen rather than to pour scorn.

There seems to be a great deal of unacceptable prejudice and discriminatory language against her in this form and people are risking looking like snobs. You are not dealing with some foreign oik or pleb don't you know old chaps  but someone who is knowledgeable about the subject about which she is talking. Just because someone has slightly flawed English does not mean they are not intelligent.
		
Click to expand...

We have no problem with the information she gave us originally but we do with the manner in which she has delivered it!

Having treated us like ignorant yokels we aren't likely to be amenable to her comments!

No one appreciates the same thing being rammed down their throats over and over again.

Ragwort is not a native to the UK or New Zealand so neither are the caterpillars that feed on it. Some idiot brought it back decades ago to Kew Gardens from there it proceeded to spread throughout the country. It needs to be sprayed off, dug up, whatever can be done to remove it - the moths can find a new plant to eat - no doubt they are still doing so in the country of its origin.

Here in New Zealand it probably hitched a ride on hay brought out to feed stock during early settlement. We don't see much of it here especially in the South Island where the majority of sheep are raised. I've sen more of it since moving to the North Island which is predominantly cattle/dairy country. 

Whether or not a person is a specialist in their field bashing others is not on!


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## Wetenschapper (26 October 2013)

Mrs B said:



			Oh dear. Now it's spread.

Have you read the entire thread? Have you not noticed that many people tried to explain just why ragwort IS a problem and why they try to eradicate it in areas where it will affect pasture and more importantly, forage crops?
		
Click to expand...

I have actually read the entire thread. I rather suspect from what you say that you have not or do not remember what it says.




			And do you not rather think that after nearly forty thousand views and 645 replies - none of which agree with her, whatever her or her colleague's qualifications are - one could conclude that we agree to differ on the topic?
		
Click to expand...

Of course not. Having had scientific training I know not to accept arguments like that. Some thing is not right because a lot of people believe it. My critical thinking skills tell me that something is right or wrong  because of the evidence that supports it not because of the number of people who believe it.
Esther believes what she does because she has the evidence to support it. There are myths about ragwort. It is poisonous, but it really isn't as dangerous as people are claiming.

It is also a clear fact that what you are saying about no-one agreeing with her is *untrue.* Several people who are knowledgeable about the subject have said she is right.  Anyone who does seems to be subjected to a barrage of vituperation.

From the moment Esther started posting here she was attacked. Primarily it seems for not being English. We have had a number of postings which seem to say. "You're not one of us go back to where you came from" That is really unacceptable behavior.






			Well, you would have thought so, but it seems that Ester didn't want to take this into account in the slightest hence why posters lost their patience.
As for effort, ability, intelligence? You seem to be implying that none of us have any of these and therefore should take her word as Gospel: that a combined several hundreds of years of experience on this site of looking after horses should bow to her superior knowledge 
		
Click to expand...

That is another one of those unscientific arguments. Experience doesn't make you right. It is the scientific evidence that does this. She has the evidence on her side. You don't.






			And you think _were_ snobs?

I suspect you are Pieter anyway, especially as you put those particular words in bold, just in case we were to thick to be impressed. 

*reaches for stronger Paraquat*
		
Click to expand...

This is another point where you are clearly wrong about this.
*I am not Pieter Pelser.*  A bit of research should tell you that he lives in New Zealand and that my earlier posting would have been made in the early hours of the morning in that country.

I  think that that you need to  pay more attention to the evidence


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## Wetenschapper (26 October 2013)

Tnavas said:



			We have no problem with the information she gave us originally but we do with the manner in which she has delivered it!

Having treated us like ignorant yokels we aren't likely to be amenable to her comments!
		
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What I see is someone  who quite admirably has turned the other cheek at repeated abuse of the "go home you dirty foreigner" type and who has striven to stick to the subject rather than descend to the level of her opponents.



			[quote
No one appreciates the same thing being rammed down their throats over and over again.
		
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Perhaps but as she says she is fed up of people ramming myths down people's throats.




			Ragwort is not a native to the UK or New Zealand so neither are the caterpillars that feed on it. Some idiot brought it back decades ago to Kew Gardens from there it proceeded to spread throughout the country. It needs to be sprayed off, dug up, whatever can be done to remove it - the moths can find a new plant to eat - no doubt they are still doing so in the country of its origin.
		
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That is exactly the kind of myth that Esther is complaining about. Anyone with proper knowledge of the plant in any way at all would know that that is nonsense. You need to check your facts. 

Any elementary botanical text will tell you that the plant under discussion Ragwort, also known as Common ragwort Jacobaea vulgaris, is native to the UK. You seem to have got it muddled up with a very very different plant that is a ruderal weed, a weed of waste ground that does not grow in pastures. (At least not unless your pasture is full of rubble or similar problems.)

I have seen this myth in this precise form before.
Oxford ragwort was introduced to Oxford Botanic gardens. Hundreds of years ago and not decades ago. It is not a problem plant at all since it just grows on waste ground. It is not a particularly close relative of common ragwort. It is in a different botanical genus and is called Senecio squalidus.  The Botanic Gardens are part of the university. This is the first time I have seen Oxford University described as "idiots". 

The issue isn't about moths or insects. It is about telling the truth not spreading falsehoods. It is about understanding critical thinking and the scientific method.

It is perfectly understandable that you should believe this myth. I understand from the publicity surrounding it that adverts have been banned by the advertising regulator for repeating myths like this.  I would suggest you check your facts before attacking anyone else's position on-line.




			Whether or not a person is a specialist in their field bashing others is not on!
		
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I have not seen any evidence of her bashing anyone. Just a surprisingly patient attempt to correct incorrect information in the face of a barrage of personal attacks, bullying and prejudice against foreigners.
It is really evident there are lots of myths. You have proved this by stating one yourself.


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## misterjinglejay (26 October 2013)

In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter?
 Us in the UK have been dealing with ragwort our way for ages, and will carry on - it's no big deal. Yes, we might moan about it, but off we go into our fields to pull it up. Job done.
What exactly is your issue with that? 
Why can't we just quietly go about our business as before?


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## ester (26 October 2013)

Ooh scientific training 

I have a PhD and am an expert on a particular micro organism, doesn't always make me right about it and there are a few other experts (not many as it is quite novel and quite a few of us disagree).


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## Mrs B (26 October 2013)

My, Wetenschapper! You do take yourself terribly seriously, don't you?

Not only did I read the thread, I did remember what it said - dumb though you obviously think me to be. However, as you admit yourself, ragwort IS poisonous, it is invasive and I and many other horse owners are not willing to take the risk of it (either variety) being anywhere near our horses or our source of winter forage.  By the way, I couldn't care less if you are Pieter or not - that part was tongue in cheek.

Now, may I suggest if you or Ester decide to join a forum again to impart such information, that you start a polite post which doesn't open with 'Ragwort, I've had it with the myths'? That just gets people's backs up before you post another word.

You might find something along the lines of "Hello! I'm new to HHO and I work in the field of X. You may be interested to know that I have been studying y in particular for z number of years and I think you, as horse owners, might be interested to read the results' gets a better reception. And no, that's nothing to do with where someone comes from or their ability in a particular language. It's just called social skills.


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## Fellewell (26 October 2013)

You can play the xenophobia card all you like Mr Wetenschapper (great name by the way) but the long and the short of it is; your Esther tried to discredit a very well-respected professor and I'm afraid that's just not cricket.


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## millsandboon (26 October 2013)

So on her advice, it's absolutely fine to go and feed my valuable 3yo ragwort? I'm not sure the HHO legal team would agree.


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## cptrayes (26 October 2013)

Fellewell said:



			You can play the xenophobia card all you like Mr Wetenschapper (great name by the way) but the long and the short of it is; your Esther tried to discredit a very well-respected professor and I'm afraid that's just not cricket.
		
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She also persisted in writing comments that to a native English speaker could only be interpreted as criticism of the way we keep horses in this country. If you check back, I and others politely explained this to her and asked her to desist.

When she refused, all gloves were off. Now she has resurrected this thread after it was dormant for a year, doubly so.

Please, anyone out there got a small thermonuclear device that we can put this to bed with, I'm getting desperate now. 



ps. Mr Wetenschapper, If you think that posting in the early hours of the morning  means that someone cannot come from a particular country then your own scientific method leaves something to be desired. I assume you have heard of both insomnia and working a night shift?


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## pootleperkin (26 October 2013)

'Dutch Noun

wetenschapper f, m (plural wetenschappers, diminutive wetenschappertje)

    scientist (one who activities make use of scientific method)'

Nice name Wetenschapper, but you do come across as bit pompous and as if you are the only one with any scientific qualifications around here. As pointed out, that's not the case - there are quite a number of people who read these forums who are well qualified in the scientific method.

TBH, Esther doesn't get my goat because of what she is saying, but because of the fact that for whatever reason, be it lack of language skills or just plain ignorance, right throughout the thread she has just ignored the information given back to her from horse owners here on the ground. She just replies with the rhetoric 'you haven't read my website or understood' - this is a little frustrating, essentially treating us all as ignorami. A forum is usually based on conversation, and I'm afraid Esther only seems to process one way traffic. We understand, you guys have a bee (or moth) in your bonnet and for whatever reason you want to make us believe we are buying into a myth that ragwort is dangerous for our horses when you believe it isn't. WHY you keep bothering with us, I'm not sure. And actually, you know, ragwort is dangerous for horses and I have seen a horse die from over ingestion of the plant, as I have pointed out to Esther before.

That horse's pasture wasn't well looked after and neither was it, but I can tell you, no amount of websites, blogs or forum posts on how to manage pasture from you guys would have made any difference, as the owner of that horse wouldn't have read them, and even if he/she did, they wouldn't have done anything about it as they were lazy owners who didn't care until it was too late.

The average HHO reader probably isn't stupid or lazy when it comes to horse care. As we have all said on here before - you are preaching to the converted on this forum. We know the risks and manage our pasture accordingly.

Personally I don't have any problem with ragwort in my horses' field - we have occasional plants coming through and they are removed quite swiftly before they get a chance to seed, as are all weeds in my fields. I'm quite happy with my horses having good grass based pasture with nothing nasty in it thank you very much. There are plenty examples of Senecio jacobaea on the fells and verges all over the county without them being in my field.

I'd also like to say I'm not hysterical when I see ragwort; I simply see the plant, dispose of it and don't give it a second's more thought. I don't why I have wasted my time typing this, but I do get cross seeing folk trying to use the fact they have a PhD in something to proselytise to the plebs!


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## Tnavas (26 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			ps. Mr Wetenschapper, If you think that posting in the early hours of the morning  means that someone cannot come from a particular country then your own scientific method leaves something to be desired. I assume you have heard of both insomnia and working a night shift?
		
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Hear, Hear. 

I often post on here during UK daytime - and guess where I live NEW ZEALAND! Sometimes/often I can't sleep so go on the computer and chat with my family in UK and visit HHO and catch up on the WORLD horse chats.

We remove Ragwort from our grazing regardless of myths because Ragwort can kill and you never know what your horse has eaten in the past before you owned it - and it is accumulative - so one day the horse may eat the Ragwort that broke the camels back! and DIE!

We remove ragwort from our grazing because it takes up valuable grazing land - wherever there is a Ragwort plant there is no grass. 

Grazing is expensive and an important part of our horses diet and to get the best out of our grazing land, we remove ALL weeds, Ragwort, Dock, Thistles, Buttercup, Fat Hen (gives horses the runs) Penny Royal etc, etc.

My horse is allergic to Buttercup - her face swells to hamster proportions if she eats around these plants. I'm fortunate with my grazing as the land owners are very diligent in removing Buttercup for my horses wellfare.

My friends horse is allergic to Penny Royal - it makes him head shake.


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## cptrayes (26 October 2013)

Tnavas do you ride  Clydesdale in NZ???????


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## Tnavas (26 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Tnavas do you ride  Clydesdale in NZ???????
		
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Yep

This is my girl at Horse of the Year - ridden by one if my Pony Clubbers for me


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## cptrayes (26 October 2013)

Awesome!! I love them, they have such movement. I keep resisting the temptation to buy a mare and breed some tbx  babies to dressage and hunt with.


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## Alyth (27 October 2013)

LOL  The Arab x Clydie are popular here (New Zealand!) as well.....as are TB x Clydie....in fact we have a Clydie x GP dressage horse here.....ridden by Bill Noble who I am sure you have heard of!!  Bowie even has a fan club!!


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## Tnavas (27 October 2013)

Alyth said:



			LOL  The Arab x Clydie are popular here (New Zealand!) as well.....as are TB x Clydie....in fact we have a Clydie x GP dressage horse here.....ridden by Bill Noble who I am sure you have heard of!!  Bowie even has a fan club!!
		
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My Clydie x TB youngster I sold just before I went on hols to UK - three weeks from being first ridden







and Bill Noble and Airthrey Highlander (aka Bowie)







credit for this photo to Debbie Stevens Photography


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## cptrayes (27 October 2013)

Fantastic. Ever since I first saw one move I reckoned they would make cracking dressage horses. They really lift and have a superb front leg action, from the ones I've seen.

I love Bowie!!!    I'd pay a lot of money for a baby him with four white legs.

Can anyone tell me what proportion of TB x Clydie would you expect to have feather? I really don't want to have to care for feathered horses with my mud.

Alyth, Arab x clydie really raised my eyebrows - picture pretty please????


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## Tnavas (27 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Can anyone tell me what proportion of TB x Clydie would you expect to have feather? I really don't want to have to care for feathered horses with my mud.
		
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My first one was Clydie x Holsteiner and has minimal feather but is a heavier type with a very fine coat, the Clydie x TB - the one above jumping has virtually no feather in the summer but grows a beard and hairy legs in winter. You just don't know what you'll get. I'd  have expected the TB x to have minimal feather.

The Clydie x Holsteiner


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## pootleperkin (27 October 2013)

They all look fab - have to say OH and I have always thought clydeys are fab movers, such lovely long legs and fab uphill paces. OH is 6'5'' so they would suit him too!


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## babymare (27 October 2013)

Didnt see thread first time around - some hilarious posts btw - but finally we have what this forum is all about.Horses!and some great piccies of lovely horses yay


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## Wetenschapper (28 October 2013)

millsandboon said:



			So on her advice, it's absolutely fine to go and feed my valuable 3yo ragwort? I'm not sure the HHO legal team would agree.
		
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I would suggest that you actually read what she as said. I would also suggest that you read some of the links she has posted.
They might just be a bit more informative than romantic pulp fiction would be.


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## Wetenschapper (28 October 2013)

pootleperkin said:



			TBH, Esther doesn't get my goat because of what she is saying, but because of the fact that for whatever reason, be it lack of language skills or just plain ignorance, right throughout the thread she has just ignored the information given back to her from horse owners here on the ground. She just replies with the rhetoric 'you haven't read my website or understood' - this is a little frustrating, essentially treating us all as ignorami.
		
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Well unfortunately some people here are ignorant and repeat the myths. We have recently had the one about ragwort not being native in the UK. I wouldn't point this out if there hadn't been all of the bullying of Esther on the grounds of her poor English, but the correct English plural of ignoramus is actually ignoramuses.  I wouldn't say my English is perfect either but then I do have the excuse of coming from a nation where it isn't the indigenous language.


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## MerrySherryRider (28 October 2013)

Just thought I'd pop back in and see the latest crazy posts and its lovely to see another of Esther's pals. However, if Wetenschapper actually read the forum, she/he'd know we have well respected members from all over the world. 

However, stupidity is treated the same regardless of nationality.


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## abracadabra (28 October 2013)

Oh no no no, Wetenschapper. We don't dislike Esther because she is foreign. We dislike her for a whole host of other reasons, but her nationality isn't one of them.  This is an international board, being foreign is fine here, however...being Esther is not.


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## Wetenschapper (28 October 2013)

Fellewell said:



			You can play the xenophobia card all you like Mr Wetenschapper (great name by the way) but the long and the short of it is; your Esther tried to discredit a very well-respected professor and I'm afraid that's just not cricket.
		
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"Oh dear. Isn't it frightful! We have some bally foreign oik who dares to question a top hole British professor. How dare these people behave like that. Bad eggs the lot of 'em. Not the done thing old bean, don't you know! It isn't cricket. Would never have happened when we had the empire. What ho!" 

My attempts at humor aside. Logic dictates that someone isn't right because they are a professor. This is a logical error called "Argument from authority". It is the facts and evidence that determine what is true not the status of the person making them. 

You might be able to make some case that the expert would know what he is talking about from his standing in the community and publications on the subject, but if we are talking about the same individual there is very little published research from him on the subject in the peer reviewed literature.

Esther seems to think she has found better  sources of information and the evidence seems to suggest that she is right.

Is this the same professor who claimed in a letter to a newspaper about  the number of cases of ragwort poisoning " In my own clinic it is more than 10 per year out of a hospital population of 2,500". When the hospital have released figures saying they did not record a single case over an extended period?
Is  it the same professor who wrote about the British ragwort plant,  "In South Africa the plant is causing massive concerns.", when the experts in South Africa say that they have no evidence that the plant has ever grown there?

Is it the same professor who wrote. " each plant will produce around 150,000 seeds.", when the claim was repeated by a horsey charity in their advertising and they were forced to change it by the advertising regulator, because the regulator, who demand facts and evidence, didn't receive any that convinced them it was true?

Don't you think that there might just be some grounds to question what is being said? That he might just be exaggerating just a little bit?


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## Wetenschapper (28 October 2013)

Tnavas said:



			We remove Ragwort from our grazing regardless of myths because Ragwort can kill and you never know what your horse has eaten in the past before you owned it - and it is accumulative - so one day the horse may eat the Ragwort that broke the camels back! and DIE!
		
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First of all, and remember you were criticizing Esther for her poor English, the correct word is "cumulative" not "accumulative" if you get a good dictionary there is a difference.
This really does betray the fact that you are not familiar with the scientific publications, if you were you would not have made that mistake.

To get it straight the biochemistry it seems very clear. It is only cumulative if more than a toxic dose is absorbed in the first place. It is very clear that small doses have no effect.
This is perhaps why, when you look for properly documented cases of ragwort poisoning you find there are very few and that they are associated with heavy consumption either in conserved forage or as a result of starvation. (Not cases where a vet just says are ragwort poisoning without proper evidence which is  far too  common.)

You keep getting things wrong like telling people ragwort isn't a UK native. You were wrong about that, shouldn't you then question what else you have been told?


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## Buddy'sMum (28 October 2013)

Wetenschapper said:



			Well unfortunately some people here are ignorant and repeat the myths. We have recently had the one about ragwort not being native in the UK. I wouldn't point this out if there hadn't been all of the bullying of Esther on the grounds of her poor English, but the correct English plural of ignoramus is actually ignoramuses.  I wouldn't say my English is perfect either but then I do have the excuse of coming from a nation where it isn't the indigenous language.
		
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Wetenschapper, sweetie, ignorami is perfectly acceptable. According to Merriam-Webster:
ig·no·ra·mus noun \&#716;ig-n&#601;-&#712;r&#257;-m&#601;s also -&#712;ra-\: a person who does not know much : an ignorant or stupid person
plural ig·no·ra·mus·es also ig·no·ra·mi

Isn't it a tad hypocritical of you to try to pour scorn on a fellow poster for what you (incorrectly) perceive to be incorrect usage of the English language?


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## Wetenschapper (28 October 2013)

abracadabra said:



			Oh no no no, Wetenschapper. We don't dislike Esther because she is foreign. We dislike her for a whole host of other reasons, but her nationality isn't one of them.  This is an international board, being foreign is fine here, however...being Esther is not.
		
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It might be for some but what about comments like this made about her " I'm not going to have some Frog claim it's not as bad as we think."


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## Wetenschapper (28 October 2013)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Wetenschapper, sweetie, ignorami is perfectly acceptable. According to Merriam-Webster:
ig·no·ra·mus noun \&#716;ig-n&#601;-&#712;r&#257;-m&#601;s also -&#712;ra-\: a person who does not know much : an ignorant or stupid person
plural ig·no·ra·mus·es also ig·no·ra·mi

Isn't it a tad hypocritical of you to try to pour scorn on a fellow poster for what you (incorrectly) perceive to be incorrect usage of the English language?
		
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I suggest you actually read a proper dictionary. The Oxford English Dictionary says differently. It is because ignoramus is actually a VERB in origin not a noun.


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## Buddy'sMum (28 October 2013)

Wetenschapper said:



			"Oh dear. Isn't it frightful! We have some bally foreign oik who dares to question a top hole British professor. How dare these people behave like that. Bad eggs the lot of 'em. Not the done thing old bean, don't you know! It isn't cricket. Would never have happened when we had the empire. What ho!" 

My attempts at humor aside.
		
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Wetenschapper - as an attempt at humour this is a massive fail. It is bordering on racist though.


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## pootleperkin (28 October 2013)

Wetenschapper said:



			I wouldn't point this out if there hadn't been all of the bullying of Esther on the grounds of her poor English, but the correct English plural of ignoramus is actually ignoramuses. 

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Actually either 'uses or 'i is correct, depending on which dictionary you care to look at. You can stick with the Oxford if you like, and I admit that am relatively conservative in terms of spelling and grammar, but as part of my job is scientific editing, I find that you have to move a little with the times and accept that language isn't always tied to the dinosaurs. For example, I hate using American English spelling, but even certain European journals now demand it. 

Anyway Mr Wettenschapper, if you have nothing better to do than try and pull me on spelling, go for it - I don't profess to be perfect, and if you want to miss the point of my/our posts, so be it.


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## Cragrat (28 October 2013)

It seems that neither Wetenschapper nor Esther really read the replies, and therefore don't understand our objection to ragwort.

It CAN kill horses, usually slowly and painfully.  Personally, that means I don't want even a single ragwort plant in my horse fields, or in the hedgerows or fields near my horses fields.

We all know that horses don't usually choose to eat fresh ragwort, but cannot detect that dead ragwort is still toxic.  All plants periodically haves leaves which die or fall off the main plant for various reasons: these parts can be eaten and begin the liver damage.

Ragwort IS invasive- I don't really care exactly how many seeds each plant produces, but it must be quite a few. Most horse owners have seen the results of a horse owner for some reason neglecting to pull ragwort before it flowers- it doesn't take long before the entire field is covered in ragwort.  Apart from the risk from eating dead parts of the plant, it reduces the space, light, and nutrients available to the grass.  Therefore the horse becomes hungry, and is even more likely to eat the ragwort.

This is why ragwort is unwelcome in horse pastures, and near horse pastures.  Even one slow painful death, from a cause which is fairly easy to prevent, is one death too many.  

You can argue all you like about precise numbers, but removing ragwort can prevent deaths,  prevent suffering even if the horse survives, and  also makes financial sense.

In view of these facts, I will continue to to strive to eradicate ragwort from my pastures and neighbouring hedgerows.


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## Wetenschapper (28 October 2013)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Wetenschapper - as an attempt at humour this is a massive fail. It is bordering on racist though.
		
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Perhaps you don't recognize a stereotype of the kind of snob that we have among some on this forum. After all I didn't start accusing anyone's behavior of being " Not cricket".  Right through this thread there has been
 Bertie Wooster-esque criticism which will indeed be funny to some, but not to those whom it characterizes perhaps.


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## Buddy'sMum (28 October 2013)

Wetenschapper said:



			Perhaps you don't recognize a stereotype of the kind of snob that we have among some on this forum. After all I didn't start accusing anyone's behavior of being " Not cricket".  Right through this thread there has been
 Bertie Wooster-esque criticism which will indeed be funny to some, but not to those whom it characterizes perhaps.
		
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Oh, I recognise a racial stereotype when I see one. Bit pathetic that you have to stoop so low to make your argument.


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## Wetenschapper (28 October 2013)

Cragrat said:



			It seems that neither Wetenschapper nor Esther really read the replies, and therefore don't understand our objection to ragwort.

It CAN kill horses, usually slowly and painfully.  Personally, that means I don't want even a single ragwort plant in my horse fields, or in the hedgerows or fields near my horses fields.

We all know that horses don't usually choose to eat fresh ragwort, but cannot detect that dead ragwort is still toxic.  All plants periodically haves leaves which die or fall off the main plant for various reasons:
		
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All plants haves[sic] leaves. and you criticise Esther!




			these parts can be eaten and begin the liver damage.



			If you look at the science animals are not poisoned by plants they encounter naturally. They all have a level of resistance that prevents this happening. We know very very clearly that small doses have no effect from the biochemistry.
One of the mechanisms involved is the same as for paracetamol which is a liver toxin, as most people will know, but which can be consumed in doses daily as long as it isn't enough to overload the bodies defenses to its toxic effects.
		
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Click to expand...


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## ester (28 October 2013)

Wetenschapper said:



			My attempts at humor aside. Logic dictates that someone isn't right because they are a professor. This is a logical error called "Argument from authority". It is the facts and evidence that determine what is true not the status of the person making them.
		
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No, as I suggested earlier the same applies to Esther's friend/writer/contributor who has a PhD.....

I also think there is a difference between typos (on what is a forum not official documentation) and completely poor tone to a series of posts. 

Pootleperkin, I hate having to use american spellings for papers too.


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## hairycob (28 October 2013)

I wouldn't class myself as either a scientist. I would also consider not to have extensive experience of horses - I've only ever owned 4 & had 2 on loan & have always been on very small yards in the 9 years I have had horses. BUT I had one horse die of ragwort poisoning shortly after I got him on loan from a yard with a lot of ragwort growing in the fields & I  know another that was seen to eat live ragwort & when pts for other reasons was found to have an extremely damaged liver, only just short of fatal. If my very limited experience can pull up 2 examples it can't be as uncommon as you think. Frankly, I don't give a damn what papers you point me to & what you say about the biochemistry I will destroy every last ragwort I find in my horses paddock. Having nursed a horse with a failing liver once I have absolutely no desire to do it again & would consider myself a failure as a horse owner if I allowed it to happen.
But even this is not the reason Esther really, really annoys me. It is the fact that she completely ignores the often repeated information that the dense lush pastures she recommends are totally inappropriate for the cobs & natives that many of us in the UK have & would kill them faster than force feeding them ragwort. When she stops being so arrogant & actually listens to what people are telling her, we might start listening to her.


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## Cragrat (28 October 2013)

I personally have never criticised Esther for her language or spelling.  To me, she writes well enough that I can understand her.

I do object the way she, and you, ignore the fact ragwort has been proven to be the cause of more than one horse death, takes up valuable and expensive pasture space, and that is why we eradicate it.

And paracetamol is not a good choice- cases of liver damage and death from long term paracetamol use are well documented. That is why there is clear labelling limiting the frequency and duration of use. 

Also, horses confined to a field are NOT in their natural environment.  They naturally would roam huge acreages, and not remain for days or weeks in areas covered in ragwort.


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## ester (28 October 2013)

quite- why would you want to have ragwort in your pasture when you could have grass in that spot instead , the same applies to non-toxic weeds too.


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## Wetenschapper (28 October 2013)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Oh, I recognise a racial stereotype when I see one. Bit pathetic that you have to stoop so low to make your argument.
		
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It is interesting what happens when someone signs into the board and appears to be a foreigner . They are clearly discriminated against. Even accused of racism when they criticise and mock the use of toffee-nosed snobbish phrases like "its not cricket" against their opponents.
You cannot accuse me of anti-British racism, I am, as far as I know, entirely British by ethnic origins and I was born there, although I have spent time in a number of countries including the Netherlands. My English is, I know, flawed on occasions.

All my toffee-nosed terms were borrowed from British literature and comedy. The Major in Fawlty Towers used "bad eggs" for example and  most of the rest is as I said Bertie Wooster. 

But I would submit that to criticise me for saying something as a foreigner most 
definitely is criticising me on grounds of apparent race. There is, however, no question that Esther has suffered clear racist attacks, like calling her a "Frog", an abusive term for a  person of a foreign nationality.

There is an awful lot of snobbery on this forum.


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## pootleperkin (28 October 2013)

Wetenschapper said:



			If you look at the science animals are not poisoned by plants they encounter naturally. They all have a level of resistance that prevents this happening. We know very very clearly that small doses have no effect from the biochemistry.
		
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Ok, lets look at this differently: This animal is encountering quite a number of plants naturally - what sort of dose do you think this horse will receive? 







They will eat ragwort if they have no grazing. You can see this horse is trying to eat grass, but there ain't much of it around huh? Then you have other variables/worries: Our old landowner knew nothing about horses and used to come in and cut the field, leaving hundreds of ragwort plants scattered around that we then had to go around and clear up. He wouldn't stop this practice, as he wanted the field to look tidy - this is what owners are often up against! 

 I should say that this type of pasture, as I have explained previously, is VERY common up in the North East and no doubt in many other areas of the country. The horse that I know that died of liver damage was kept in a paddock like this. The owner could not be arsed to manage the paddock, nor I guess had the time or money to do so, had they had the inclination.

Some responsible owners also have horses in paddocks like this. I was one of them; my horse was in a paddock adjacent to the one in which the horse died and it also looked like this when we first moved there. We didn't have alternative pasture. For about 4 - 5 years, my family and I conscientiously cleared the paddock of ragwort each year until we had a ragwort free field. Perhaps you can understand that most horse owners don't want their fields to end up looking like this, and many of them are on similarly challenging pasture - often overgrazed in the past with no budget to improve it in the future. Therefore, if we see Ragwort, it goes! We don't all have access to acres of beautifully managed, predominantly grass-species rich fields.


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## Capriole (28 October 2013)

Wetenschapper said:



			It is interesting what happens when someone signs into the board and appears to be a foreigner ..
		
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Complete rubbish. This is an international board with many nationalities. Most of us get on perfectly well with one another. The pretty universal dislike of Esther is nothing to do with where she's from, as has been mentioned.


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## hairycob (28 October 2013)

Still not listening then.
I always find that people who are losing an argument are the first to shout that they are being picked on.
And as others have pointed out there are posters from all over the globe who don't seem to have your problem.


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## ester (28 October 2013)

Pah, Frog's a term of endearment surely .

and yes this is a very international board and we all rub along quite nicely.


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## cptrayes (28 October 2013)

Wetenschapper said:



			If you look at the science animals are not poisoned by plants they encounter naturally. They all have a level of resistance that prevents this happening. We know very very clearly that small doses have no effect from the biochemistry.
		
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I think you need to change your user name Mr Scientist.

I know personally of a horse on good grazing which died after eating the neighbour's yew hedge. There are horses dying right now of acorn ingestion and the New Forest is flooded with pigs at acorn time every year to prevent it. I have a horse in dense pasture that will eat ragwort even though it is toxic. Some wort plants are highly palatable but known to cause severe photosensitivity. Grass sickness is caused by horses eating .... grass ...... which is toxic without them being able to detect it.  The list goes on.

You give your horses, if you own any, access to either ragwort or lush pasture as you wish. I and others have no intention of following your advice.

Where ARE you getting your information from?


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## Tnavas (28 October 2013)

*TO BE HONEST WETENSCHAPPER I DON'T CARE IF DEATH BY RAGWORT IS NOT A COMMON THING! ONE DEATH IS ONE TOO MANY!*



Wetenschapper said:



			First of all, and remember you were criticizing Esther for her poor English, the correct word is "cumulative" not "accumulative" if you get a good dictionary there is a difference.
This really does betray the fact that you are not familiar with the scientific publications, if you were you would not have made that mistake.
		
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ac·cu·mu·la·tive  (-kymy-ltv, -l-tv)
adj.
1. Characterized by or showing the effects of accumulation; cumulative.
2. Tending to accumulate.
ac·cumu·la·tive·ly adv.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

ac·cu·mu·la·tive adjective \&#601;-&#712;kyü-m(y)&#601;-&#716;l&#257;-tiv, -l&#601;-\
: growing or increasing over time

Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Full Definition of ACCUMULATIVE

1
:  cumulative <an age of rapid and accumulative change>
2
:  tending or given to accumulation
&#8212; ac·cu·mu·la·tive·ly adverb
&#8212; ac·cu·mu·la·tive·ness noun
 See accumulative defined for English-language learners »
Examples of ACCUMULATIVE

The accumulative effect of his injuries forced him to retire.
<the accumulative effect of all her worries was to seriously undermine her health>

accumulative  /&#601;&#712;kju&#720;mj&#650;l&#601;t&#618;v/
in Spanish | in French | in Italian | English synonyms | in context | images

Collins Concise English Dictionary © HarperCollins Publishers::

accumulate /&#601;&#712;kju&#720;mj&#650;&#716;le&#618;t/
vb
to gather or become gathered together in an increasing quantity; amass; collect
Etymology: 16th Century: from Latin accumul&#257;tus, past participle of accumul&#257;re to heap up, from cumulus a heap

ac&#712;cumulable
adj
ac&#712;cumulative
adj

https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&r...=yqUvyOC5gK2X8Ky4jn7gpw&bvm=bv.55123115,d.dGI




I am not a scientific person, however I am well qualified in my field of looking after horses - I have letters after my name too! I will remove and advise my students to remove ALL Ragwort plants to ensure that there is absolutely NO RISK of the horse eating it. Why tempt fate!


Not all fungi are poisonous but we don't try each one to find out which is the one safe to eat. We remove them to prevent children from eating them.

As to my error regarding Ragwort not being native to UK - I did read that in the early days of internet search engines. It may not have mentioned that there were different varieties of Ragwort.

I think it is you scientists that are hysterical we don't care we just remove it.

And I personally don't have a lot of time for some scientists - they gave us thalidomide, nuclear bombs, aspartame, told us Soy was a wonder food, but it isn't it's causing major problems. 

You don't always get it right!

Now several of us changed the subject on this thread to lighten it and you have come back in and upset the whole thing again. 

I'm sure I have the support of fellow HHO's - please go away, don't bother us anymore and allow us to be hysterical about Ragwort world wide should we wish to be. We value the welfare of our horses far more than that of a moth!


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## Buddy'sMum (28 October 2013)

Wetenschapper said:



			All my toffee-nosed terms were borrowed from British literature and comedy. The Major in Fawlty Towers used "bad eggs" for example and  most of the rest is as I said Bertie Wooster.
		
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Oh, you borrow your phrases from the Major in Fawlty Towers?? DEFINITELY not even a hint of racism intended then. My mistake.


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## Buddy'sMum (28 October 2013)

Wetenschapper said:



			If you look at the science animals are not poisoned by plants they encounter naturally. They all have a level of resistance that prevents this happening. We know very very clearly that small doses have no effect from the biochemistry.
		
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Please provide references for such studies in horses.


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## dianchi (28 October 2013)

Have we not killed this thread off yet?


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## Tnavas (28 October 2013)

dianchi said:



			Have we not killed this thread off yet?
		
Click to expand...

We've desperately tried, even changed the subject and put pictures of Clydie x horses up - but no Professor Spoutalot is still spouting!

My Bad.....................


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## Patterdale (28 October 2013)

This thread is nuts! :eek3:

Obviously the ragwort lovers are wrong, so I won't even go there, but please don't knock the Knottenbelt! He is a genius among horse vets, and a very nice man.


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## Tnavas (28 October 2013)

Patterdale said:



			This thread is nuts! :eek3:

Obviously the ragwort lovers are wrong, so I won't even go there, but please don't knock the Knottenbelt! He is a genius among horse vets, and a very nice man.
		
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Do you mean this man?


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## Patterdale (28 October 2013)

Tnavas - my internet connection is v patchy - I can't see any picture on your link, only the words (so I was assuming there was something else?). 
All I know of Professor Knottenbelt (besides papers he's written) is that he gave my vet a lot of help and advice after my horse sustained a very complex and unique injury, and never charged a penny. He was v helpful and knowledgeable and I've always been grateful


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## MadJ (28 October 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ECUtkv2qV8


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## Tnavas (28 October 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Tnavas - my internet connection is v patchy - I can't see any picture on your link, only the words (so I was assuming there was something else?). 
All I know of Professor Knottenbelt (besides papers he's written) is that he gave my vet a lot of help and advice after my horse sustained a very complex and unique injury, and never charged a penny. He was v helpful and knowledgeable and I've always been grateful 

Click to expand...

Doh! Forgot the link

http://www.liv.ac.uk/equine/team/derek-knottenbelt/


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