# Has anyone a valid reason...................



## Toby_Zaphod (29 December 2015)

why they don't wear hi viz? 

I drive around an area where the majority of riders I see along the lanes do not wear hi viz of any kind either on themselves or on their horses. I just wondered what the reasons are for not wearing it?


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## Count Oggy (29 December 2015)

It's probably because they're idiots.


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## popsdosh (29 December 2015)

Freedom of choice!!


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## wills_91 (29 December 2015)

I am always banging on about this. I very very rarely hack out on roads but I always go up hi vizzed. Should you have an accident being able.to be spotted easily could save minutes & your life. No excuse imo


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## Goldenstar (29 December 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Freedom of choice!!
		
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Yes , the way people go on on here any one would think drivers can only see lurid coloured things .
Some people don't wear hats their choice .


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## dibbin (29 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Yes , the way people go on on here any one would think drivers can only see lurid coloured things .
Some people don't wear hats their choice .
		
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Not quite the same thing though, is it? You don't wear a hat, it's only your head at risk. You don't wear hi-vis, a driver doesn't see you, and you could end up killing yourself, your horse, and people in the car. And I doubt your insurance would cover you. 

But never mind, it's your choice.


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## ILuvCowparsely (29 December 2015)

Toby_Zaphod said:



			why they don't wear hi viz? 

I drive around an area where the majority of riders I see along the lanes do not wear hi viz of any kind either on themselves or on their horses. I just wondered what the reasons are for not wearing it?
		
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I had some livery owners said they would not wear any because it looks stupid. 


  What gets me is the people who wear a tabard and nothing else, so from a driver view with horse head in the way they see nothing, also if you fall off what good is your tabard going to do if the horse gallops away and is wearing nothing.


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## Goldenstar (29 December 2015)

dibbin said:



			Not quite the same thing though, is it? You don't wear a hat, it's only your head at risk. You don't wear hi-vis, a driver doesn't see you, and you could end up killing yourself, your horse, and people in the car. And I doubt your insurance would cover you. 

But never mind, it's your choice.
		
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We are not discussing my choices thank you very much .I did not share them.
It's a adults freedom of choice I see people riding on the road all the time with positions so poor I would not let them off the lunge let alone loose on the road in control of an horse but again that's their choice .


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## luckyoldme (29 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Yes , the way people go on on here any one would think drivers can only see lurid coloured things .
Some people don't wear hats their choice .[/QUOTE
riding round the country lanes its surprising how much more reaction time you get if a pedestrian/cyclist or rider is wearing hi viz. I see it as a safety issue for other road users, whereas not wearing a riding hat is a personal safety issue.
		
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## Goldenstar (29 December 2015)

luckyoldme said:





Goldenstar said:



			Yes , the way people go on on here any one would think drivers can only see lurid coloured things .
Some people don't wear hats their choice .[/QUOTE
riding round the country lanes its surprising how much more reaction time you get if a pedestrian/cyclist or rider is wearing hi viz. I see it as a safety issue for other road users, whereas not wearing a riding hat is a personal safety issue.
		
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You can see it however to choose but you can't impose your choice on others .
		
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## Goldenstar (29 December 2015)

luckyoldme .[/QUOTE
riding round the country lanes its surprising how much more reaction time you get if a pedestrian/cyclist or rider is wearing hi viz. I see it as a safety issue for other road users said:
			
		


			Just trying again that's what I was trying to quote .
		
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## ycbm (29 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Yes , the way people go on on here any one would think drivers can only see lurid coloured things .
.
		
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Well I prefer to see it this way. The way people go on about it on here, you would think that high viz gave the driver/rider an extra three seconds reaction time, which could easily be the difference between life and death of driver/bike rider/horse rider/horse.  Oh, hold on, it does


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## dibbin (29 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			We are not discussing my choices thank you very much .I did not share them.
It's a adults freedom of choice I see people riding on the road all the time with positions so poor I would not let them off the lunge let alone loose on the road in control of an horse but again that's their choice .
		
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I meant "you" in reference to people generally, not you specifically.


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## Goldenstar (29 December 2015)

ycbm said:



			Well I prefer to see it this way. The way people go on about it on here, you would think that high viz gave the driver/rider an extra three seconds reaction time, which could easily be the difference between life and death of driver/bike rider/horse rider/horse.  Oh, hold on, it does 

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Again it's your choice .
Others take a different view like I say I have a big issue with the people who ride on the road with truly awful positions I think it poses a huge risk to other road users .


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## Rowreach (29 December 2015)

Freedom of choice maybe.  But the OP asked if anyone had a valid reason to choose not to wear hi-viz ............ anyone??


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## Pedantic (29 December 2015)

Bumped into 3 riders today with no Hi Viz coming back from my hack, NOA.


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## JanetGeorge (29 December 2015)

Count Oggy said:



			It's probably because they're idiots.
		
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Or suicidal!


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## MrsMozart (29 December 2015)

Rowreach said:



			Freedom of choice maybe.  But the OP asked if anyone had a valid reason to choose not to wear hi-viz ............ anyone??
		
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Nope.

When put on the road we're hi-vized as are our horses. 

I work on the basis that a) my choice to have my neds on the road, so I'll do everything I can to protect them; and b) had two rescue teams (helicopter and ambulance) thank me for wearing high viz as it made me easy to find, which was of benefit to me, them, and their next job.


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## hibshobby (29 December 2015)

Because they don't have to. Freedom of choice.


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## Red-1 (29 December 2015)

I DO wear High Viz out hacking. Usually both me and my horse. Did not help us one day when a drink driver whooped us up the backside, over the bonnet and through the windscreen, but I still wear it.

I do, however, agree with Goldenstar that it worries me MUCH more when riders with a low skill level ride out. It is not just the position, I know I am "plugged in" to my horse, as in his brain, even if I have a relaxed rein as I sit with the horse, and the horse is soft to my aids. I can feel an issue before...it is an issue. My horse is then trained to respond to the leg/ rein. It is not infallible, he is a horse after all, but it is as safe as I can make it.

I see people riding out with no connection, the horse is hard to the leg and hand, the rider has little connection or control. If it shies the horse is non responsive. 

That to me is as much or more danger.


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## JanetGeorge (29 December 2015)

hibshobby said:



			Because they don't have to. Freedom of choice.
		
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Yeah!  Freedom to get their horse badly injured or killed!  Freedom to cause serious injury or death to car driver and his/her passengers!  And freedom to negate ALL insurance!  (It's quite hard to insure against being a bloody idiot!)


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## Kezzabell2 (29 December 2015)

/I've come round the corner on a few occasions recently and found people not wearing hi viz, I literally couldn't see them until I was very close!

lucky for them I was driving slowly because I expect to see horses there!

however, other road users aren't so kind!  I was out today, in hi viz and had a couple of twits that refused to slow down and tried to over take me on a corner and at the same time splashed through a massive puddle!  luckily for me my horse didn't react, which surprised me as he's very green still!  bless him


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## poiuytrewq (29 December 2015)

A girl on my old yard had a very valid reason for never wearing high viz (even though our livery yard owner actually tried to enforce it as a yard rule- everyone else accepted it!) 
Wait for it...... Her horse was chestnut and high viz clashes awfully with chestnut &#128563;
I thought she was joking at first but soon realised she was deadly serious!


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## Overread (29 December 2015)

If its bright day time chances are most people see no need to wear high-vis clothing since the light levels are such that they don't have any difficulty seeing. It's the same reason people walk, take the dog, jog, etc.... all in plain clothes during the day. Sure get the wrong sun angle (very easy at this time of the year) and a drivers vision can be obscured significantly; of course they should slow down but it still means that a person animal or rider and horse can be a silhouette against the black background.

Thing is the person doesn't fully realise that. Sure if they went out in dull/dark or evening times they might consider high vis a more viable option because then their own vision is getting impaired partly so they see a reason for it.



The fashion side I would also argue is a valid consideration. Like it or not people like to look good; they also like to be "free" from "the man" and wearing high-vis can sometimes feel like its more a chore than a life-saver (esp if the person has never had a  risky situation before). If high-vis were made into more casual clothing or heck just functional affordable jackets/tops/trousers for work around a yard it would feel less like being told to put something on and more like just putting on your favourite top to go out for a ride -bonus that it could also save your life.


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## FfionWinnie (29 December 2015)

Quite often see cyclists at the last second and get a fright, because they are wearing black clothing. Often they have lights yet no reflective hi viz.  When there is an oncoming car with their lights on, you can hardly see the cyclist.  

My neighbour wears hi viz with reflective strips and no lights for walking his dogs. You cannot miss him. The dogs have reflective strips on their coats as well.  It makes such a difference, especially in poor light conditions, why wouldn't you.


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## Red-1 (29 December 2015)

JanetGeorge said:



			Yeah!  Freedom to get their horse badly injured or killed!  Freedom to cause serious injury or death to car driver and his/her passengers!  And freedom to negate ALL insurance!  (It's quite hard to insure against being a bloody idiot!)
		
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I find that interesting. Which companies do not insure if not wearing high viz? I am surprised as it is not a legal requirement. My insurance is through Shearwater, don't think they have that exclusion. I also have insurance through the BHS, I have not seen that as being a reason not to pay out?


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## Nudibranch (29 December 2015)

JanetGeorge said:



			Yeah!  Freedom to get their horse badly injured or killed!  Freedom to cause serious injury or death to car driver and his/her passengers!  And freedom to negate ALL insurance!  (It's quite hard to insure against being a bloody idiot!)
		
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This. I believe, once upon a time, driving whilst drunk was also a choice....


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 December 2015)

The ones round my area that don't use hi viz on the roads (there are very few who go without)  are also mostly those who don't wear hats........ Must be a correlation somewhere.

In MY opinion, those who don't use it really don't give a s h i t about their horses safety in being seen by faster moving traffic. Please shoot me for having the freedom of choice to place this  post


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## Kezzabell2 (29 December 2015)

Overread said:



			The fashion side I would also argue is a valid consideration. Like it or not people like to look good; they also like to be "free" from "the man" and wearing high-vis can sometimes feel like its more a chore than a life-saver (esp if the person has never had a  risky situation before). If high-vis were made into more casual clothing or heck just functional affordable jackets/tops/trousers for work around a yard it would feel less like being told to put something on and more like just putting on your favourite top to go out for a ride -bonus that it could also save your life.
		
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I can't see this as a valid reason!

my horse looks the height of fashion in his hi viz!  I might be sad but I actually think he looks good!


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## Pedantic (29 December 2015)

Weird, in here we get some posters defending blatant stupidity, and in the gas installers forum we get some installers defending dangerous practices, some being gas related, but one being using a mobile phone whilst driving driving an enormous van, amazing.


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## JanetGeorge (29 December 2015)

Red-1 said:



			I find that interesting. Which companies do not insure if not wearing high viz? I am surprised as it is not a legal requirement. My insurance is through Shearwater, don't think they have that exclusion. I also have insurance through the BHS, I have not seen that as being a reason not to pay out?
		
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Copmpanies decide what they will and won't insure for on the day the claim comes in.  They ALL have nice little exclusion clauses that can be used to wriggle out of anything - if it's going to be too expensive, or be bad publicity, or if the  Claim Manager has a bee in his bonnet!

BHS  Insurance ONLY pays out if there is no other insurer involved - it's a last resort case.  And I'm not sure they would endear themselves to BHS if they paid out on a rider, with no high  vis, in darker, foggy conditions (maybe get away with it in bright sunlight - although that can  be  even  WORSE for visibility!)


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## Goldenstar (29 December 2015)

Pedantic said:



			Weird, in here we get some posters defending blatant stupidity, and in the gas installers forum we get some installers defending dangerous practices, some being gas related, but one being using a mobile phone whilst driving driving an enormous van, amazing.
		
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No ,driving while using a mobile phone is unlawful there's no law that says you must wear hi vis .
Driving while drunk impairs you , not wearing hi vis does not impact on your ability.
It's a freedom of choice ATM.
On the horse type hi vis the quality is generally awful .
I searched and searched of nice stuff and there's just none I can find .
My winter coat is ok it's the best I could find but it's arms are way to bulky and the fabric to noisy ( not too much of an issue as I don't have baby horses any more ) the fastenings are cheap and nasty and the cut is well, horrible .
For summer wear cycling stuff is fine bit they often don't have two way zips but it's just no good for winter it's not warm enough .


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## rascal (29 December 2015)

The amount of idiots riding bikes with no lights/hi viz is astonishing, I really think it should be made compulsory for anyone on the road.   Near our horses field, there is one woman who walks her dogs on the road in the dark, she is extremely difficult to see in the dark on an unlit lane.


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## Overread (29 December 2015)

Isn't it by law that you must have both forward and rear lights/reflectors for a bike at all times if going on the road? 

Kezza I've honestly never seen those kind of high-vis covers on a horse barring police horses; also doesn't he get hot under there?


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## Deltaflyer (29 December 2015)

I do wear hi-viz when I ride on the roads, even though I hate the stuff. Sadly it doesn't automatically ensure that certain types of drivers slow down or take care when passing us


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## teapot (29 December 2015)

Overread said:



			Like it or not people like to look good; they also like to be "free" from "the man" and wearing high-vis can sometimes feel like its more a chore than a life-saver (esp if the person has never had a  risky situation before). If high-vis were made into more casual clothing or heck just functional affordable jackets/tops/trousers for work around a yard it would feel less like being told to put something on and more like just putting on your favourite top to go out for a ride -bonus that it could also save your life.
		
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Huge amounts of 'looking good' fitted/shaped running gear eg t-shirts, jumpers, half zips, full zips, no zips, tops, waterproof jackets etc come in bright colours, often with reflective strips to boot, so I'm not sure that's a valid enough reason these days.


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## Kezzabell2 (29 December 2015)

Overread said:



			Isn't it by law that you must have both forward and rear lights/reflectors for a bike at all times if going on the road? 

Kezza I've honestly never seen those kind of high-vis covers on a horse barring police horses; also doesn't he get hot under there?
		
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hahah really?  He didn't wear the exercise sheet today, as it was very mild, he only wears it when its cold or raining!  a lady on my yard has a fly sheet type that she rides in!  I tried to get one but Robinsons had sold out of them and haven't had them back in stock since!  Quite a lot of people around my way wear hi viz exercise sheets!  but we do have some busy roads and lots of trees growing over them, so you do need some extra visability


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## Rapidash (29 December 2015)

Riding on the roads is what's dangerous.  The amount of smug posts on here from people who seem to think hi vis generates some magic forcefield... It doesn't. You're still putting yourself and your horse in the same danger of being hit by a car. Even if the risk was reduced 50% (which seems unlikely) and you like to play the numbers game, here's a tip if you care so much: not riding on the roads reduces the risk to zero. 

Someone who doesn't ride on the roads could easily berate you all for needlessly endangering your horses so I'd suggest you all remember that just as you like to take calculated risks with your safety, so do others. 

Be interesting to see what research there is into the benefit of wearing hi vis whilst riding.


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## minkymoo (29 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Yes , the way people go on on here any one would think drivers can only see lurid coloured things.
		
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In my experience, even hi-viz doesn't make a difference. I hack out round my village a lot, always wearing a hi-viz jacket and horse wears a light weight sheet in yellow that also has a flashing light on his bum. 

I have had many drivers pretty much ignore the fact that I'm even there. I had one young woman try to squeeze her car between me and some bollards, how she didn't hit us I do not know and I'm thankful that I have such a sane and sensible 4 year old. 

I don't know what the answer is, but in all honesty, I don't think hi-viz makes a difference at all, a driver who is an ass will drive like an ass regardless of how much hi-viz you're wearing


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## Booboos (29 December 2015)

Freedom of choice does not explain why someone chooses something stupid, it just allows them to do so. You still need to account for the decision which is what the post is asking for.


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## FfionWinnie (29 December 2015)

Rambo, ultra hi viz, ultra high quality and ultra necessary because she's ultra worth it. 







Just out in daylight gear:


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## Follysmum (29 December 2015)

IMO I can"t see why a horse rider would not want to protect themselves and their horse as much as possible on the roads. So IMO  I think they are irresponsible if they choose not to wear any Hi Viz


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## quirky (29 December 2015)

Stupid is as stupid does!


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## Kezzabell2 (29 December 2015)

I don't think that its about the ass hole drivers!  its more about people not being able to see you, there is a chance that someone would have slowed down had they have seen you but because you're not wearing hi viz they were not able to see you until the last minute

There will always be people who think horses shouldn't be on the road and will carry on acting like idiots!!  but at least you've given yourself half a chance of being seen earlier by wearing hi viz!

I never used to wear it on my mare, didn't think I needed it as I had a pink jacket, she was light coloured but I have noticed a difference in the way people pass me since I've been wearing it on my bay gelding


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## Booboos (29 December 2015)

minkymoo said:



			I don't know what the answer is, but in all honesty, I don't think hi-viz makes a difference at all, a driver who is an ass will drive like an ass regardless of how much hi-viz you're wearing 

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No one thinks hi-viz will magically make a reckless driver sensible, but it will allow many sensible drivers see you that bit sooner and hopefully avoid you.


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## ShadowHunter (29 December 2015)

No there isn't an excuse not to wear it. Granted, people might not slow down but they will see you earlier. Emergency services, especially helicopters, can locate you faster when you wear hi-viz, if you were to have a fall somewhere more remote.


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## Clodagh (29 December 2015)

Rapidash said:



			Riding on the roads is what's dangerous.  The amount of smug posts on here from people who seem to think hi vis generates some magic forcefield... It doesn't. You're still putting yourself and your horse in the same danger of being hit by a car. Even if the risk was reduced 50% (which seems unlikely) and you like to play the numbers game, here's a tip if you care so much: not riding on the roads reduces the risk to zero. 

Someone who doesn't ride on the roads could easily berate you all for needlessly endangering your horses so I'd suggest you all remember that just as you like to take calculated risks with your safety, so do others. 

Be interesting to see what research there is into the benefit of wearing hi vis whilst riding.
		
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Do you think horses should not go on the roads? An interesting idea.
I even wear hi viz when hacking to and from hunt meets, really would you rather look special or have a living horse? Even if it only helps a bit I don't understand why anyone would not wear it. Is vanity really an excuse!?


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## Goldenstar (29 December 2015)

There is no need for those who don't wear it make excuses we make our own choices


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## Rapidash (29 December 2015)

Clodagh said:



			Do you think horses should not go on the roads? An interesting idea.
I even wear hi viz when hacking to and from hunt meets, really would you rather look special or have a living horse? Even if it only helps a bit I don't understand why anyone would not wear it. Is vanity really an excuse!?
		
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More people's lives would be saved each year if we all permanently wore helmets to guard against slips, traffic accidents etc. Certainly more lives than if all riders wore hi vis on the roads... If you're so safety conscious why don't you wear a helmet all the time, especially when walking to the shops/ driving to the supermarket? Is vanity an excuse?

Personally I've got nothing against hi vis at all. And if my pony was better on the roads I'd wear it if we went out. I'm just confused as to why people think you're "suicidal" and an "idiot" for not wearing something that's not proven to make a blind bit of difference. 

My point is we all to some degree calculate what risk to run, and you're still running a risk being on the roads at all. People are hysterically claiming they don't want to be the cause of killing some innocent passenger so they wear hi vis. I mean that's an argument to not be on the roads at all...


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## dibbin (29 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			There is no need for those who don't wear it make excuses we make our own choices
		
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So why do you keep banging on about it?


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## flirtygerty (29 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Yes , the way people go on on here any one would think drivers can only see lurid coloured things .
Some people don't wear hats their choice .
		
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personally I always use hi viz and agree with freedom of choice, given a choice I would rather not injure a horse that is almost invisible under tree lined roads, until I am on top of them, I use rural roads daily and am by no means a fast driver, but more than once I have driven round a bend and only just seen the( usually bay) in front


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## Rowreach (29 December 2015)

Booboos said:



			Freedom of choice does not explain why someone chooses something stupid, it just allows them to do so. You still need to account for the decision which is what the post is asking for.
		
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Yeah, nobody has managed that yet Booboos.


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## Buddy'sMum (29 December 2015)

Rapidash said:



			Be interesting to see what research there is into the benefit of wearing hi vis whilst riding.
		
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Surprisingly, not much benefit, according to this recent study:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news...n-lights-hi-vis-duchy-college-research-500904


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## ILuvCowparsely (29 December 2015)

Sensible riders IMO.  Glad most of my livery owners take safety before their  image.


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## SatansLittleHelper (29 December 2015)

I cannot think of a valid reason not to wear it. I never go out without it if I'm riding/leading a horse on the road or walking the dogs. As a driver I can honestly say it has helped me see riders, dog walkers etc much sooner. 
However I also agree that some drivers are going to be ********s regardless.


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## Enfys (29 December 2015)

I don't HAVE to, as I don't ride on the road and therefore I do not have to consider road users, however, I ride in thousands of acres of forest, frequently alone, so I do tend to wear brighter colours so that I could be spotted if I had an accident.  In the UK I wore either a yellow sailing jacket, or a waterproof highway jacket, and the horse (pure white) wore his Newmarket quarter sheet ... I could be seen from miles up on the mountain I am told. I always wore a hi-viz hat band as it is the first thing many motorists see over a hedge in country lanes.

In hunting season we are decked out in orange, and we all use bear bells.

I do actually think that wearing hi-viz should be as mandatory for horse riders (also cyclists) on the public roads as helmets/hats are for juniors.


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## Rapidash (29 December 2015)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Surprisingly, not much, according to this recent study:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news...n-lights-hi-vis-duchy-college-research-500904

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All I've found was a road safety observatory report that looked into accidents in 2011. They were primarily caused by the horse spooking into traffic, or people passing too closely out of ignorance. Hi vis won't help you in either case. No mention of "smidsy" accidents ("sorry mate I i didn't see you "- that's what kills motorcyclists and cyclists and where hi vis actually can make a difference). It was also sniffy about the bhs' " hi vis gives drivers up to 3 seconds extra to react " claim noting this appeared to have no research behind it. 

I appreciate and agree with the "you might as well wear it you have nothing to lose" argument but really dont think the evidence is strong enough to warrant accusations of idiocy... It's not like the wearing a helmet/ drink driving/ seatbelt debates where the evidence mounted up.


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## ILuvCowparsely (29 December 2015)

For anyone interested I found these tonight at Tesco, thought they would be brilliant on our carriage when we drive as they just clip on, and  if you put a elastic band in the tail you could clip this on your horses tail.  they were £ 1. 20 or something - so I thought I would share the tip


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## dollyanna (29 December 2015)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Surprisingly, not much benefit, according to this recent study:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news...n-lights-hi-vis-duchy-college-research-500904

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I'd be interested to know where they circulated it, 353 responses in 4 months is very little in comparison to the number of riders out there. Also using social media in itself would skew the results - many of the riders near me who ride without reflectives are much older and I know that many if not most of them do not use social media much if at all. I would also wonder if those who are bothered about taking part in these type of projects are keener on safety and therefore more likely to ear reflectives - those who are less bothered about their own safety are also less likely to bother responding.
Not a particularly valid piece of research to my mind, and I also think they should do the research with drivers as much as riders - I could report several near misses when I have been driving due to very poor visibility of riders in my area, and I drive carefully because I know where they are likely to be and are not likely to be visible.


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## cbmcts (29 December 2015)

I agree that hi viz won't protect you from the numpty drivers who either don't know or don't care that they should give horses room but if the fact that I wasn't hi vizzed up was used in their defence or allowed them to escape prosecution because they could say that they couldn't see me after they hit me I would be gutted.

As far as insurance goes, most policies have a clause somewhere saying something about reasonable precautions - it could be argued that no hi viz while you are on the road is unreasonable...

I say the above as somebody who grew up only ever wearing a hat at shows, PC rallies or hunting ( it was kept for best because you didn't want the velvet scuffed if you fell off!!!) and who regularly rode and led ponies on the road in headcollars and bareback but times have changed and our habits have to change with them IMO.


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## Gloi (29 December 2015)

I do wear hi viz when I'm out but the times I have had a near miss it wouldn't have made any difference if I was wearing it or not.  I do think that it is a case of victim blaming saying that it should be compulsory to wear it.


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## Rowreach (29 December 2015)

Rapidash said:



			I appreciate and agree with the "you might as well wear it you have nothing to lose" argument but really dont think the evidence is strong enough to warrant accusations of idiocy... It's not like the wearing a helmet/ drink driving/ seatbelt debates where the evidence mounted up.
		
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But many of these things which were once a matter of choice have since become a matter of law.  I remember when the seatbelt law came in, there were many people who felt they should be able to choose whether to risk being thrown through the windscreen in the event of an accident or not.  I haven't seen anyone on this thread be able to give a valid REASON (sorry, not shouting, I don't know how to make it bold) why they don't wear hiviz on the road, other than that it is a matter of choice.  Which isn't a very good reason imho.

I don't ride on the road because I don't have to, and because the roads round here are too dangerous, but I still wear hiviz offroad because I want people to see me sooner, and if I part company with my horse, I would like the horse to be more visible and me to be found sooner if I'm incapacitated.  Valid reasons.


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## Orainn (29 December 2015)

I don't ride a horse on the roads but do ride a motorbike. I always wear a hi-viz vest, no matter what time of day it is or what the conditions. It's just part of my gear.

I'm always a bit baffled when I see other bikers/cyclists etc without hi-viz. Not in a judgemental way (honest....), just genuine surprise. 

Really, what is the downside to wearing hi-viz?

I get the freedom of choice argument, sure I wouldn't like to have it forced on me either. And no, there isn't a huge amount of evidence that it saves lives. But i am surprised to see such strong anti-hi-viz feelings as I genuinely don't see what the downside is.


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## cbmcts (29 December 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			For anyone interested I found these tonight at Tesco, thought they would be brilliant on our carriage when we drive as they just clip on, and  if you put a elastic band in the tail you could clip this on your horses tail.  they were £ 1. 20 or something - so I thought I would share the tip






Click to expand...

I had something similar to this on the dogs collars that I got a few years ago at Tescos in the cycling section - at least I know what direction to shout them back when they bogged off after foxes  They also had velcro arm bands with with a strip of red lights that you could set to flashing that went round their necks from the same place, about a pound each at the time. They worked really well on the short haired dogs not so well on the long haired ones though.


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## ILuvCowparsely (29 December 2015)

cbmcts said:



			I had something similar to this on the dogs collars that I got a few years ago at Tescos in the cycling section - at least I know what direction to shout them back when they bogged off after foxes  They also had velcro arm bands with with a strip of red lights that you could set to flashing that went round their necks from the same place, about a pound each at the time. They worked really well on the short haired dogs not so well on the long haired ones though.
		
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these ones are bigger than the dog ones they measure  2  1/2 inches across


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## Carefreegirl (29 December 2015)

Several years ago on a Sunday morning, lovely day weather wise, nice straight road, 40mph limit as just come out the village and my horse got hit by a van by a driver who 'didn't see me' he wasn't speeding. 

My horse was grey, he had a hi viz exercise sheet on and I had a hi viz coat on.. 

Luckily my horse wasn't hurt other than bruising so I'm very 'meh' about the hi viz argument now. I don't find drivers react any different if I'm wearing it or not. 

Strangely enough I found the traffic slowed down when I won an ROR jacket with writing on the back and people slowed down to read it.


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## Count Oggy (29 December 2015)

dollyanna said:



			I'd be interested to know where they circulated it, 353 responses in 4 months is very little in comparison to the number of riders out there. Also using social media in itself would skew the results - many of the riders near me who ride without reflectives are much older and I know that many if not most of them do not use social media much if at all. I would also wonder if those who are bothered about taking part in these type of projects are keener on safety and therefore more likely to ear reflectives - those who are less bothered about their own safety are also less likely to bother responding.
Not a particularly valid piece of research to my mind, and I also think they should do the research with drivers as much as riders - I could report several near misses when I have been driving due to very poor visibility of riders in my area, and I drive carefully because I know where they are likely to be and are not likely to be visible.
		
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Exactly. It is very hard to quantify prevention. This is why money for crime prevention is always at risk of being cut. We are always, as a group, moaning about lack of courtesy from the general public. The minor humiliation of wearing a hi viz is just a common courtesy to other road users. I know I appreciate it and always notice people wearing them sooner than those who don't wear them.


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## SO1 (29 December 2015)

With the research it is very hard to prove that hi viz does not work as it is very hard to measure accidents that did not happen due to drivers seeing a horse earlier. Hi Viz may not slow down all drivers and some people may drive responsibly so they will see a horse and slow down anyway regardless of Hi Viz or not.

If Hi Viz is not effective why do so many workmen have to wear it as it is an extra cost for companies to provide Hi Viz workwear to staff.

I wonder if like with hat wearing it is the more professional riders that are less likely to wear hi viz because they think they are less likely to have an accident as they are better riders and on better schooled horses or if it is a cultural thing because they may not hack out as much as leisure riders. Tabards are light and easy to put on and will fit over bulky winter jackets and are cool enough to wear in hot weather too so not wearing it is not saving time in getting ready to ride out.

I expect there are people who don't wear it as they think it looks unprofessional or that they don't look fashionable or because of cost. {If you can't afford to buy a hi viz you can sometimes get them free if you join the nettex club which is free to join}

I always wear hi viz when hacking out and I have also started to wear it whilst walking on foot especially on narrow roads with poor visibility.

I have also seen some dogs now wearing hi viz jackets and collars. Some people also put hi viz collars on the semi feral new forest ponies running on the forest so they are more likely to get seen if they stray on to the roads.


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## tankgirl1 (29 December 2015)

This thread worries me.... people, horse people, are actually trying to defend riding out without Hi Viz? Idiotic! Yes it may be 'Freedom of choice' but that doesn't mean that it is a right or valid decision to make!


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## Goldenstar (29 December 2015)

Count Oggy said:



			Exactly. It is very hard to quantify prevention. This is why money for crime prevention is always at risk of being cut. We are always, as a group, moaning about lack of courtesy from the general public. The minor humiliation of wearing a hi viz is just a common courtesy to other road users. I know I appreciate it and always notice people wearing them sooner than those who don't wear them.
		
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Then in my opinion you ought not be driving .
Pedestrians are at risk from you .
Unless something is restricting your vision ( poor light for instance ) there's no excuse for not noticing things that are not high vis as quickly as those that are.


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## tankgirl1 (29 December 2015)

SO1 said:



			With the research it is very hard to prove that hi viz does not work as it is very hard to measure accidents that did not happen due to drivers seeing a horse earlier. Hi Viz may not slow down all drivers and some people may drive responsibly so they will see a horse and slow down anyway regardless of Hi Viz or not.

If Hi Viz is not effective why do so many workmen have to wear it as it is an extra cost for companies to provide Hi Viz workwear to staff.

I wonder if like with hat wearing it is the more professional riders that are less likely to wear hi viz because they think they are less likely to have an accident as they are better riders and on better schooled horses or if it is a cultural thing because they may not hack out as much as leisure riders. Tabards are light and easy to put on and will fit over bulky winter jackets and are cool enough to wear in hot weather too so not wearing it is not saving time in getting ready to ride out.

I expect there are people who don't wear it as they think it looks unprofessional or that they don't look fashionable or because of cost. {If you can't afford to buy a hi viz you can sometimes get them free if you join the nettex club which is free to join}

I always wear hi viz when hacking out and I have also started to wear it whilst walking on foot especially on narrow roads with poor visibility.

I have also seen some dogs now wearing hi viz jackets and collars. Some people also put hi viz collars on the semi feral new forest ponies running on the forest so they are more likely to get seen if they stray on to the roads.
		
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A few on my old yard wouldn't wear it because it looks daft - one of these was a serving police officer!


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## ycbm (29 December 2015)

http://road.cc/content/news/139527-high-vis-works-says-danish-study


This is the latest research I can find, for those who say it makes no difference. This study is huge numbers and produced a very big difference.


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## ILuvCowparsely (29 December 2015)

Your dicing with death if you don't wear Hi Viz - my young livery was knocked off her bike two weeks ago and the police said she was partly to blame as she had no hi viz, even though the old bag pulled out of a side road  and my livery cycled into her.

 remember you cannot bring the life of your horse back but you can buy a new frame or wheel for a bike. 

 Be seen be safe that is my motto  same like wearing a hat,  head hits the road and  split open like a water melon.


 *you don't* get a second chance


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## dibbin (29 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Then in my opinion you ought not be driving .
Pedestrians are at risk from you .
Unless something is restricting your vision ( poor light for instance ) there's no excuse for not noticing things that are not high vis as quickly as those that are.
		
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Pedestrians generally aren't on the road, so unless Count Oggy is in the habit of driving on the pavement, then there's no need to enforce hi-vis for pedestrians (unless they are on the road, then frankly they should be wearing it - particularly on country roads).

The reason it's called "hi-vis" is because it's highly visible. It's perfectly normal and expected to see hi-vis before seeing non hi-vis.


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## dollyanna (29 December 2015)

tankgirl1 said:



			A few on my old yard wouldn't wear it because it looks daft - one of these was a serving police officer!
		
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I had a patient who is a police officer who wouldn't wear hi viz when cycling because it looked stupid.


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## Count Oggy (29 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Then in my opinion you ought not be driving .
Pedestrians are at risk from you .
Unless something is restricting your vision ( poor light for instance ) there's no excuse for not noticing things that are not high vis as quickly as those that are.
		
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Gosh, you're really quite a charmer aren't you! Why get so personal? I'm not saying I drive around with my eyes closed with people jumping into ditches to get out of my way! There is no excuse for driving dangerously but when if two people are walking down a country lane where trees are causing shadows,  one is wearing a brown or green jacket and the other is in high visibility clothing it is more than likely the one in high viz will be more visible. That has nothing to do with my lack of ability as a driver. I will also add, that yes, the light is often poor here in the winter. I rarely see horses on the road unless it's the hunt and you can't miss them. We do however get a lot of ladies that walk, usually before they have to go to work or when they return home. There are no pavements and most of them are dressed up like bananas. Simply because it makes them more visible. If you only hack out in perfect weather conditions you should be fine, but anything else requires a little bit of ugly yellow clothing.


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## Micropony (29 December 2015)

Our hacking is mostly pretty suburban with very little off road hacking unless you're lucky enough to have transport (which I don't) and enough time to box up and set off on an outing to hack. High streets, A roads, footbridges across motorways you have to dismount and lead over, it's pretty unforgiving. Most hacks we will meet one or more of bus, bin lorry, truck, article, cyclists (single or group of), motorbikes, flapping flags on the petrol station forecourt, scaffolding and building work etc. Most drivers are polite and considerate, but a minority are idiots. Yes, hacking out is a risk, and one that not everyone would choose to take. But it's that or bore poor Micropony witless in the school the whole time, so I have been hacking him out since just before he turned 4.

I consider that's quite risky enough, without leaving the hi vis behind. The research isn't conclusive, but if (God forbid) we should have an accident, I don't want to be wondering if maybe it wouldn't have happened if we'd been easier to see.

Not everyone at the yard does wear hi vis to hack, but (and this may just be coincidence) there are only a couple of people who have come a cropper in the 6 or 7 years I have been there. Neither of them were wearing hi vis, and one wasn't even wearing a hat.

We wear an exercise rug (mesh in summer, waterproof and fleece lined in winter) and I have a hat band and a selection of hi vis outer garments ranging from a mesh waistcoat for the summer (has handy pocket for phone and hoofpick), through a gilet of reasonably flattering cut for spring and autumn, to a warm jacket for winter. Waistcoat is adjustable so expands to go over my big waxed coat when riding in the rain.

Although hi vis yellow doesn't do my colouring any favours, I think we look reasonably smart in our gear (until someone else's horse rubs half-chewed food on his exercise rug while stopped to let a car through), and when there are several of us all done up like that, I defy any driver to claim they can't see us!

Of course it's personal choice, I just don't understand why someone would choose not to.


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## Illusion100 (29 December 2015)

Bit off topic but around a year go if a young child had of been wearing hi-viz, I wouldn't have had to see him hit head on, having to wash his blood off my hands and clothing and wonder whether his brain surgery would save him or I'd be a witness at Court. The poor driver stood no chance of avoiding him and it has probably affected him severely. 

Drivers obviously aren't blind enough to need lurid colours to see a horse and rider/cyclist/biker/pedestrian but there can be many distractions when driving. Making yourself obvious that you are there and you are vulnerable to those driving big, heavy objects travelling at higher speed in your direction can only be common sense, as well as using common sense in general road use. 

Make yourself stand out on the roads, could save not only ruining your life but those of others too.


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## Count Oggy (29 December 2015)

http://www.naylors.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/hi-viz-autumn-2014-poster-1.jpg


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## Buddy'sMum (29 December 2015)

dollyanna said:



			I'd be interested to know where they circulated it, 353 responses in 4 months is very little in comparison to the number of riders out there. Also using social media in itself would skew the results - many of the riders near me who ride without reflectives are much older and I know that many if not most of them do not use social media much if at all. I would also wonder if those who are bothered about taking part in these type of projects are keener on safety and therefore more likely to ear reflectives - those who are less bothered about their own safety are also less likely to bother responding.
Not a particularly valid piece of research to my mind, and I also think they should do the research with drivers as much as riders - I could report several near misses when I have been driving due to very poor visibility of riders in my area, and I drive carefully because I know where they are likely to be and are not likely to be visible.
		
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I don't disagree but the point is, where are all the studies proving conclusively that hi viz improves road safety for horse riders?
There aren't any. Why is that? Why haven't any of the hi viz manufacturers spent a fraction of their profits conducting some basic research to prove that their kit saves lives?

BTW, there's no convincing evidence that hi viz improves road safety for cyclists either, although there are a few more studies published.

Both me and my ponio are decked out head-to-toe/hoof in hi viz pink every time we venture out on the roads but that didn't stop one plonker from coming very, very close to killing us earlier this year, so I have my doubts it makes any difference whatsoever.


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## dollyanna (29 December 2015)

Is there no research to demonstrate hi vis increases visibility outside of equestrian and cycling uses? Surely there must be otherwise why would companies have to spend on providing their workers (builders, roadworkers, rail workers etc) with certified hi vis clothing?


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## minkymoo (29 December 2015)

I don't think that its about the ass hole drivers! its more about people not being able to see you, there is a chance that someone would have slowed down had they have seen you but because you're not wearing hi viz they were not able to see you until the last minute
		
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Hang on, you've clearly not managed to read my post properly at all. I stated that I was wearing hi-viz, a pink hi-viz jacket and horse was wearing a yellow hi-viz sheet and yet the driver I was talking about clearly didn't care that there wasn't room for the both of us and that she thought as she was in a car, she was more important. 

I always wear hi-viz when out on the roads, my point is (as a previous poster has mentioned) it doesn't make you immune from people driving like asses. 

Just because they see you sooner does not mean they will necessarily pass you slow and wide. They do notice that there is an inconvenience on the road that will delay their journey by precious seconds and therefore must be passed as if it isn't even there.


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## minesadouble (30 December 2015)

My concern is that Hi Viz seems to make some riders think they are invincible - we have one on our yard who rides out in the dark in her hi viz, when a fellow livery commented to her that she had driven past her and did not see her until the last minute the reply was 'well I had all of my hi viz on'.  Oh right then, if I get a couple of hi viz stripes for my bonnet and boot does that mean I can drive without headlights/tail lights then??


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## FfionWinnie (30 December 2015)

Buddy'sMum said:



			I don't disagree but the point is, where are all the studies proving conclusively that hi viz improves road safety for horse riders?
There aren't any. Why is that? Why haven't any of the hi viz manufacturers spent a fraction of their profits conducting some basic research to prove that their kit saves lives?

BTW, there's no convincing evidence that hi viz improves road safety for cyclists either, although there are a few more studies published.

Both me and my ponio are decked out head-to-toe/hoof in hi viz pink every time we venture out on the roads but that didn't stop one plonker from coming very, very close to killing us earlier this year, so I have my doubts it makes any difference whatsoever.
		
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Why do you need a study to point out the obvious?!

Hi viz will not make a plonker driver who is probably looking at their phone not the road, less of a plonker. 

Hi viz WILL make you more easily seen by the non plonker drivers - every second counts when it comes to stopping distance - and therefore must reduce the risk of being hit because you were blending in with your smart tweed and dark jods.


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## ycbm (30 December 2015)

Buddy'sMum said:



			I don't disagree but the point is, where are all the studies proving conclusively that hi viz improves road safety for horse riders?
There aren't any. Why is that? Why haven't any of the hi viz manufacturers spent a fraction of their profits conducting some basic research to prove that their kit saves lives?

BTW, there's no convincing evidence that hi viz improves road safety for cyclists either, although there are a few more studies published.

Both me and my ponio are decked out head-to-toe/hoof in hi viz pink every time we venture out on the roads but that didn't stop one plonker from coming very, very close to killing us earlier this year, so I have my doubts it makes any difference whatsoever.
		
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No conclusive evidence for cyclists?  You can't have followed my pointer. I'll post it again.


I don't personally need conclusive evidence for what I can see with my own eyes.


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## ycbm (30 December 2015)

http://road.cc/content/news/139527-high-vis-works-says-danish-study


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## FfionWinnie (30 December 2015)

minesadouble said:



			My concern is that Hi Viz seems to make some riders think they are invincible - we have one on our yard who rides out in the dark in her hi viz, when a fellow livery commented to her that she had driven past her and did not see her until the last minute the reply was 'well I had all of my hi viz on'.  Oh right then, if I get a couple of hi viz stripes for my bonnet and boot does that mean I can drive without headlights/tail lights then??
		
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She's confused between hi visibility and highly reflective. You need the former during the day and the latter in the dark. I do both and have both although most hi vis has some reflective strips, it's not enough for dark conditions where you need ultra reflective clothing, and lights.


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## YasandCrystal (30 December 2015)

i don't believe there is any valid reason not to wear hi viz.  I always hi viz up myself and whichever horse I am riding like a Christmas tree whether I am riding on or off road. 
It's obvious someone wearing hi viz is more noticeable I dont need any scientific proof to tell me that and I am agog that members are questioning that. 
If I were to part company with my horse on the road or in the countryside I want him seen easily and quickly and I want any emergency services/help to see me easily too.
I have been praised by dog walkers that they could see me on my horse from so far away they had plenty of time to get their dog on its lead before we met. 
When I used to drive one of mine I used reflectors high viz, blinking lights and bells on the carriage to warn people of our approach. If your love your horses and life you take responsibility to do all you can to prevent an accident. Is it fail safe? No of course not, but you can be sure it works for so many insurance companies to insist on its use. I am sure we have all met that foolish  runner dressed in black running on the roads.


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## Cragrat (30 December 2015)

ycbm said:



http://road.cc/content/news/139527-high-vis-works-says-danish-study

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That seems quite conclusive, even with the number who should have been wearing the jacket but didn't !


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## webble (30 December 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			For anyone interested I found these tonight at Tesco, thought they would be brilliant on our carriage when we drive as they just clip on, and  if you put a elastic band in the tail you could clip this on your horses tail.  they were £ 1. 20 or something - so I thought I would share the tip






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I have those clipped to my saddle they are fab


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## pepsimaxrock (30 December 2015)

Rapidash said:



			Riding on the roads is what's dangerous.  The amount of smug posts on here from people who seem to think hi vis generates some magic forcefield... It doesn't. You're still putting yourself and your horse in the same danger of being hit by a car. Even if the risk was reduced 50% (which seems unlikely) and you like to play the numbers game, here's a tip if you care so much: not riding on the roads reduces the risk to zero. 

Someone who doesn't ride on the roads could easily berate you all for needlessly endangering your horses so I'd suggest you all remember that just as you like to take calculated risks with your safety, so do others. 

Be interesting to see what research there is into the benefit of wearing hi vis whilst riding.
		
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Exactly. Well said.


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## pennyturner (30 December 2015)

We ride on the road regularly (rural lanes and busy villages), and have never found hi-viz to be much of an issue - there are up to 10 of us, and I find drivers have much better eyesight when it's something they can't easily whizz past.  It's surprising the courtesy you get from other road users when there are enough of you to intimidate THEM!

TBH, the training and traffic-proofing of your horse is a much greater issue.  Hi-viz won't make your horse steady, and drivers make choices based on an assumption that your horse is quiet and under control.


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## ycbm (30 December 2015)

I assume that people who don't wear high viz are not at all interested in persuading others NOT to wear high viz?

In which case, why do they open threads about high viz, and get themselves wound up about people who think they would be safer if they did? 

And by the way, for some of people, their options are to ride on roads or never ride at all.  

I also wonder how many people who say it doesn't work are grateful that speed cameras are painted yellow


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## Goldenstar (30 December 2015)

pennyturner said:



			We ride on the road regularly (rural lanes and busy villages), and have never found hi-viz to be much of an issue - there are up to 10 of us, and I find drivers have much better eyesight when it's something they can't easily whizz past.  It's surprising the courtesy you get from other road users when there are enough of you to intimidate THEM!

TBH, the training and traffic-proofing of your horse is a much greater issue.  Hi-viz won't make your horse steady, and drivers make choices based on an assumption that your horse is quiet and under control.
		
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Of course this is a thread about Hi vis but it's only a tiny part of what keeps you safe on the road by far the most important thing is the riders skill and the horses training .


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## ycbm (30 December 2015)

pennyturner said:



			We ride on the road regularly (rural lanes and busy villages), and have never found hi-viz to be much of an issue - there are up to 10 of us, and I find drivers have much better eyesight when it's something they can't easily whizz past.  It's surprising the courtesy you get from other road users when there are enough of you to intimidate THEM!

TBH, the training and traffic-proofing of your horse is a much greater issue.  Hi-viz won't make your horse steady, and drivers make choices based on an assumption that your horse is quiet and under control.
		
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I think riding in a group is very different .

I am a sole rider on narrow lanes, and there's a very marked difference between the number of drivers who stop completely and let me pass them when we are decked out like a Christmas tree. I've also had cyclists swing downhill at speed around blind corners in a dark wood who have narrowly avoided me. I'm reasonable sure of I'd been wearing muted colors I'd have been hit several times.

I don't think your last paragraph is true. The more high viz we have on, the greater the number of other road users, including dog walkers who restrain their dogs for me, treat my horse as if he may explode at any moment. Not all, of course, but one extra is a bonus.


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## Goldenstar (30 December 2015)

MrGS was reading this over my shoulder while I did breakfast and said I was to post to say I was in the kitchen wearing a pink hi vis waistcoat and and yellow hi vis beanie hat .
We take H and S seriously in this house .


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## BigPony (30 December 2015)

I wear it. Minimum of tabard and hat band for me and leg bands for horse, up to gloves, whip, bridle/rein covers, tail guard/exercise sheet and neck band. I also wear a tabard off road so I can be found in a ditch!

As a driver I know it makes people easier to see and I want people to see us and have time to react accordingly. 

Of course not all do, but I feel I am doing my best to mitigate some of the risks of riding on roads by doing so.

I also feel that my horse doesn't ask to go on roads, that's my decision and I should do what I can to limit the risks for him.  To choose not to, IMHO, is a very selfish decision.

We are both pretty yellow/orange. Yes we get comments positive and negative, what matters to me is that I am doing what I can to keep my horse safe whilst still getting out and enjoying him.


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## laura_nash (30 December 2015)

I wear hi-vis whether I am on the road or not.  This is partly habit from when I lived in Somerset, we always wore hi-vis so the helicopters and pilots could see us and it made a big difference - there is a study somewhere by the RAF on the extra visibility to helicopter pilots.  The other reason is so I can be found easily if I came off in a field somewhere.

I now live in rural Ireland where pavements are very much a rarity and the benefits of hi-vis are very well known round here, they hand out RSA yellow hi-vis vests like candy.  My daughter came home with one from pre-school.  Its rare to be in a shop or supermarket and not see someone wearing them, especially the older small farmers who check on their stock on foot or by bike, they just put them on in the morning as part of their work wear like their wellies.


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## ILuvCowparsely (30 December 2015)

I think it worrying when you hear the  anti vi viz brigade all think we are smug wearing Hi Viz like it is fashion parade. 


 We are not smug  lets get it straight.   Hi viz does not guarantee your safety, we ALL know that, and we know riding on the roads is dangerous as is ANY SPORT of any kind skiing  abseiling etc.  You wear body protectors out cross country - why??? to reduce back injury or worst if you come off.  Hi Viz reduces the likelihood of injury by giving a driver those precious moments to react accordingly.   The same as we put our hazards on if the traffic slows to stop ahead on the motorway, which just because you put them on does not mean no one will hit you  or rear end you but it gives the driver behind time to react and brake.

 hear are 10 reasons  for wearing it  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2275260/Since-compulsory-wear-hi-viz.html


If you choose not to wear Hi Viz  as you 

don't like it
fashion statement
think no need
or what ever

 remember  your at risk more than we are,so go ahead if fashion or your views mean more than your horse as it will be your horse that is hit not you.  If you want to be a statistic go ahead, I bet this girl would think twice now  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2275260/Since-compulsory-wear-hi-viz.html


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## Flame_ (30 December 2015)

I rarely use exercise sheets because they flap and slip around and are a general PITA. Other hi viz I use but can understand that the more commonly used it gets, the more drivers will just take for granted seeing hazards sooner and the effectiveness will decline.


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## fburton (30 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			No ,driving while using a mobile phone is unlawful there's no law that says you must wear hi vis .
Driving while drunk impairs you , not wearing hi vis does not impact on your ability.
		
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... to be seen? A useful ability, imo.


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## unicornystar (30 December 2015)

I am lucky not to really have to touch any roads hacking, and WAS a member of the Hi Viz...can't be arsed what is the point camp.....

Until a friend last year was with her horse in the woods, it reared, fell over backwards, came down on her, broke it's neck and died....ON HER....she was crushed for a considerable time and trapped, on her own...knocked out so once she came round and called 999 air ambulance they were able to find her.......it took some time mainly as she was in a funny area of the woods with quite a covering and was also in shock, however I have no doubt that hi viz saved her life as they located her in time.

Now I have a Selco £14.99 jacket in lovely yellow...it is gross, but it is warm and waterproof and I can be seen.....

As for not wearing a hat, that is another convo but I really don't have time for people that don't....truly pathetic..


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## ILuvCowparsely (30 December 2015)

Flame_ said:



			I rarely use exercise sheets because they flap and slip around and are a general PITA. Other hi viz I use but can understand that the more commonly used it gets, the more drivers will just take for granted seeing hazards sooner and the effectiveness will decline.
		
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Right so the more we use Hi Viz the less drivers will react to it, is that your statement ? 


  So  how come we react quickly to someone standing on the side of the road over and over as we feel it is a copper with a speed gun!! I don't see drivers ignoring that hi viz


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## unicornystar (30 December 2015)

Red-1 said:



			I find that interesting. Which companies do not insure if not wearing high viz? I am surprised as it is not a legal requirement. My insurance is through Shearwater, don't think they have that exclusion. I also have insurance through the BHS, I have not seen that as being a reason not to pay out?
		
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It won't be there I black and white, however, any insurance company who can find a reason why you as the policyholder didn't take "due care and use some common sense" will wriggle out of a claim...there are lots of grey areas in insurance.  It doesn't have to be legal requirement...


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## ILuvCowparsely (30 December 2015)

unicornystar said:



			I am lucky not to really have to touch any roads hacking, and WAS a member of the Hi Viz...can't be arsed what is the point camp.....

Until a friend last year was with her horse in the woods, it reared, fell over backwards, came down on her, broke it's neck and died....ON HER....she was crushed for a considerable time and trapped, on her own...knocked out so once she came round and called 999 air ambulance they were able to find her.......it took some time mainly as she was in a funny area of the woods with quite a covering and was also in shock, however I have no doubt that hi viz saved her life as they located her in time.

Now I have a Selco £14.99 jacket in lovely yellow...it is gross, but it is warm and waterproof and I can be seen.....

As for not wearing a hat, that is another convo but I really don't have time for people that don't....truly pathetic..
		
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Sorry to hear about your friend UnicornyStar  how sad and tragic.


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## ILuvCowparsely (30 December 2015)

Flame_ said:



			I rarely use exercise sheets because they flap and slip around and are a general PITA. Other hi viz I use but can understand that the more commonly used it gets, the more drivers will just take for granted seeing hazards sooner and the effectiveness will decline.
		
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Like the old saying you don't need to wear a hat till one day when your head is split open or you don't want to wear a seat belt till one day it saves your life


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## luckyoldme (30 December 2015)

I don t think its about how drivers react to seeing a rider in hi viz, its about how soon they can see you. 
Im particuarly struck by comments made to me from elderly drivers, two of whom have commented that they can see me coming long before they know what i am (ie horse rider, pedestrian cyclist) Its also got to be a good thing for the emergancy services, where i hack out is about 3 or four crop fields from our house. Often my neighbours comment on having followed nearly my whole hack , it really can t be a bad thing!


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## paddy555 (30 December 2015)

I found out first hand how it gave you just that extra couple of seconds needed to prevent an accident. 6.30am, I was driving to work in the dark, a commuter road where most people did 40mph although in effect it was a country lane. Went round a corner fortunately only doing about 25mph and legging it down to the dual carriageway was a TB and it's pony friend. Both had rugs on and on the back of the rugs were reflective strips.  They had obviously escaped. I managed to stop. Without the strips I wouldn't have seen a dark horse with a dark blue rug in the dark. 

On that same road some years earlier I met racehorses out exercising each morning. All in dark colours, in the half light. Very very difficult to see, in fact impossible. I complained to the police and they equipped themselves with yellow hi viz. It improved my daily journey considerably knowing that I was less likely to damage a horse. 

High viz won't stop uncaring drivers but it may well prevent the likes of me from hitting a horse and it definitely does give you those extra 2 seconds.


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## neddy man (30 December 2015)

The answer to the question is VANITY, but they probably wont admit it.Its raining and they wear any old coat to keep dry,its sunny and they wear a t shirt to keep cool ,the jods are 5 yrs old ,and the boots havent seen polish in a month,but if they wear hi-vis they dont look good?If they are vain why haven't they always got there best show clothes on? (yes i know not everyone has best show clothes) 40 horses at the yard i am on ,we are the only ones who wear hi-vis  every time we ride,busy A road for a mile one way to good rides, instant access to a wood behind yard the other way,umpteen mountain bikers (plus illegal quads and trials bikes) dog walkers with loose dogs,with high-vis bikers spot us earlier and slow down, dog walkers call their dogs back ,and even some of the Q/&TBs stop and switch the engines off .One horse locally was hit by a mountain bike,£400 vet bill horse out of action for 9 months, cyclist rode off and didnt say sorry or leave his name and address ,they weren't wearing high vis,not its not foolproof but i think it puts me in a safer possition,glad i am not vain!


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## alainax (30 December 2015)

Yes I have a valid reason... There are no cars where we hack 

Although if I was going off the track alone without having pre-written my route on the white board, then I probably would in order to be found easier if god forbid there was an accident.


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## dibbin (30 December 2015)

alainax said:



			Yes I have a valid reason... There are no cars where we hack 

Although if I was going off the track alone without having pre-written my route on the white board, then I probably would in order to be found easier if god forbid there was an accident.
		
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I never wore hi-viz when I was at our old yard (which I think is where you are now!), because all the hacking was off-road. Now I have to because we need to go on the roads to get anywhere, unless we take the box out.


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## Luci07 (30 December 2015)

We didn't really use to wear hi viz at my old yard as our roadwork was simply crossing a B road. However, as phone services weren't great in our area, someone did work out it was easier to be found if anything happened if you were wearing hi viz so the change was made. Where I am now it is utterly inconceivable that you would leave without hi viz as we have busy roads. I don't accept drivers get blasé with hi viz ..quite the opposite. We are conditioned now to accept that Hi Viz is alerting us to another persons presence so slow down as soon as we see any.


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## Damnation (30 December 2015)

Not wearing a hat, fine, you are only endagering yourself and you know the risks, your choice.

Not wearing Hi Vis? You are endangering others. I feel the same way about all road users, whether that be runners, cyclists, horse riders, even motorbikes.

To me, horses get a bad press for being on roads, so why give drivers an excuse not to see you? An extra reason to target horse riders? If something happens because I car passed too fast or too close or you get hit and you were wearing Hi Vis, they have no excuse. If you are hit and you weren't wearing Hi Vis, they have an excuse. Why give them that excuse?

When I hacked I had a tabard on and my horse had Hi Vis on, so if we parted company, we would be seen seperately.

When I had my little 125cc bike, I still worse a Hi Vis tabart. Takes 5 seconds to put on, costs a few quid. Not rocket science.


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## HashRouge (30 December 2015)

Flame_ said:



			Other hi viz I use but can understand that the more commonly used it gets, the more drivers will just take for granted seeing hazards sooner and the effectiveness will decline.
		
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That doesn't really make sense. It doesn't matter if drivers take for granted being able to see hazards sooner, the important point is that they will STILL be able to see the hazards sooner. That won't have changed. As others have pointed out, no-one thinks hi viz changes the way a driver acts - it won't make a rude driver polite, for example - but it does allow you to be seen more quickly and easily. I don't see how that can ever be a bad thing.


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## Pearlsasinger (30 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I see people riding on the road all the time with positions so poor I would not let them off the lunge let alone loose on the road in control of an horse but again that's their choice .
		
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I am not sure that 'just because I can' is a valid reason for doing anything!

I agree with you  about the appalling riding that can be seen out and about, GS, but surely that is an argument *for* all riders/horses wearing hi-viz on the roads?  Drivers have those extra few seconds notice that there is a horse ahead and they may need to take evasive action because the rider may not be able to!

I should add that not all riders with poor positions will be on reactive horses - I have a 'bombproof' mare who I honestly could put a complete novice on and set them off to the top of the road onto the circular track and back down the quiet road.  The mare would not put a foot wrong, would speed up/slow down as necessary to avoid passing parked cars at the same time as a moving car and bring the novice back safely.  The rider would probably look dreadful to a passing observer but they would be safe.  I hasten to add that I shall not be doing so, novices have ridden her but always on a lead-rein.

I wish more runners/dog-walkers round her would wear reflective gear at night, we have no pavements and sometimes the only clue that they are there is the white sole of their trainers or their dog's eyes reflecting in the headlights - terribly unsafe.


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## dibbin (30 December 2015)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			I wish more runners/dog-walkers round her would wear reflective gear at night, we have no pavements and sometimes the only clue that they are there is the white sole of their trainers or their dog's eyes reflecting in the headlights - terribly unsafe.
		
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Totally agree with this. We live a mile outside our village up a single track road that's quite popular with runners and dog walkers because it's fairly quiet. I've lost count of how many times I've had to slam the brakes on to avoid hitting either someone running/walking or their loose dog because there isn't a scrap of hi-vis/reflective material to be seen! And I never go above second gear on that road so it certainly isn't that I'm going too fast (before I'm told that I'm clearly a danger to pedestrians and shouldn't be driving )


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## Damnation (30 December 2015)

dibbin said:



			Totally agree with this. We live a mile outside our village up a single track road that's quite popular with dog walkers. I've lost count of how many times I've had to slam the brakes on to avoid hitting either someone walking or their loose dog because there isn't a scrap of hi-vis/reflective material to be seen! And I never come out of second gear on that road so it certainly isn't that I'm going too fast (before I'm told that my inability to see someone in dark clothes in appalling weather means I'm clearly a danger to pedestrians and shouldn't be driving )
		
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Me too! Infact the other night I nearly hit a cyclist, just ouside of town, at night, just casually riding down the middle of the road, in black, with no lights, no reflective strips, nothing. I slammed on to avoid hitting him as he then decides to swerve out infront of me without looking to turn left. If he had been wearing Hi Vis, or had a reflective strip on his bike, I would have seen him much sooner. Two seconds later and he would have been decorating my bonnet and not in a good way  

We have black labs and when we used to walk them near roads in the dark we had a yelow reflective collar for him with red flashing lights on so that a) he could be seen and b) we could see him when we let him off the lead in the park!


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## Goldenstar (30 December 2015)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			I am not sure that 'just because I can' is a valid reason for doing anything!

I agree with you  about the appalling riding that can be seen out and about, GS, but surely that is an argument *for* all riders/horses wearing hi-viz on the roads?  Drivers have those extra few seconds notice that there is a horse ahead and they may need to take evasive action because the rider may not be able to!

I should add that not all riders with poor positions will be on reactive horses - I have a 'bombproof' mare who I honestly could put a complete novice on and set them off to the top of the road onto the circular track and back down the quiet road.  The mare would not put a foot wrong, would speed up/slow down as necessary to avoid passing parked cars at the same time as a moving car and bring the novice back safely.  The rider would probably look dreadful to a passing observer but they would be safe.  I hasten to add that I shall not be doing so, novices have ridden her but always on a lead-rein.

I wish more runners/dog-walkers round her would wear reflective gear at night, we have no pavements and sometimes the only clue that they are there is the white sole of their trainers or their dog's eyes reflecting in the headlights - terribly unsafe.
		
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A persons riding is not improved by wearing hi vis .
Its improved by hard work sweat and effort .


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## ILuvCowparsely (30 December 2015)

The other thing is *IF* there is an accident  involving a car and horse the police will tell the rider that they are partly at fault for not wearing HI VIZ, and this will be used against the rider if the case goes to court.


However if the rider IS wearing it the court will use that against the driver.  There will be one less thing for the rider to be blamed for as the driver cannot say they did not see them.


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## Goldenstar (30 December 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			Right so the more we use Hi Viz the less drivers will react to it, is that your statement ?
		
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There is some work on this in the work place I remember my brother telling me about this he's an expert in this sort of thing  .


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## Booboos (30 December 2015)

Flame_ said:



			I rarely use exercise sheets because they flap and slip around and are a general PITA. Other hi viz I use but can understand that the more commonly used it gets, the more drivers will just take for granted seeing hazards sooner and the effectiveness will decline.
		
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Brilliant argument, this deserves a gold star. Along the same lines cars should stop having their headlights on in the dark because the more they are used the more other drivers will take them for granted and their effectiveness will decline. Everyone knows you should randomly switch your headlines on and off to startle other drivers into seeing them.


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## Hanson (30 December 2015)

I drive to work via country lanes and main roads. I came to a T- junction and looked thoroughly both way before pulling out as I know the cars come down the hill extremely fast. I didn't see the cyclist dressed in black on a black bike and it was a lovely sunny morning. I missed him by shear luck. It shocked me.  If I had of hit him and caused harm, I don't know how I would manage to deal with that mentally for the rest of MY life.

If he had been wearing hi vis / reflective gear I would have seen him (I always drive with lights on).

Perhaps those who choose not to make themselves as vis as possible when out and about, be that on your beloved horse, cycling or walking your dog, should think about others and not be so b***** selfish.

There will always be accidents and there will always be those who drive, cycle and ride stupidly but it's all about assessing the risk and doing things to reduce the risk.

When we ride out my horse and i both have lights, reflectives and hi vis on. I don't really care if I look fashionable or not, I'll save that for the school.

Most of my gear is from shops like Halfords, or cycling websites.  It doesn't cost much. Hopefully it will help drivers and other responsible road users to see me and may just reduce the risk we take when we are out and about in this ever busy and fast moving world.


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## Goldenstar (30 December 2015)

Flame_ said:



			I rarely use exercise sheets because they flap and slip around and are a general PITA. Other hi viz I use but can understand that the more commonly used it gets, the more drivers will just take for granted seeing hazards sooner and the effectiveness will decline.
		
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Some horses are not safe in sheets .
The thermatex ones are the best I have found for nervous of sheet horses .
I wish I would find a hi vis walker rug for the lead horses has anybody found one ?


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## hollyandivy123 (30 December 2015)

i work on the theory that, it will give the driver a chance of seeing a horse/jogger/dog walker and cyclist quicker than with out. i nearly pulled out on a cyclist this week it was about 4.30 ish, darkish and raining a bit........................the cyclist was on a black bike, in black, with a black hat with a very small flashy light. so merged wonderfully with the wet dark tarmac and dark hedge. cool in black, yep but possibly might end up "dead cool" although i do not wish that on any one. 
the roads  are busier than we most of us were kids, i agree with HGA-12 it might not be cool to light up as Christmas tree but at least in court they can not say they didn't see us.


why to i seem to passionate about this, when i was 17yr, i was run over whilst riding, in good light conditions, ended up behind the boot of the car, horse sat on the bonnet and pushed the engine through, and my friend's horse bolted and she came off ended up with a fractured skull and in hospital i was lucky i only broke an arm.

since then i have not cared about how cool i look......................living is better.


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## Buddy'sMum (30 December 2015)

ycbm said:



			No conclusive evidence for cyclists?  You can't have followed my pointer. I'll post it again.


I don't personally need conclusive evidence for what I can see with my own eyes.
		
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Thanks for posting the link. Interesting read. I especially liked this part: 

"the control group has 199 solo accidents and the test group has 150 solo accidents. This difference is statistically significant. This is surprising since the higher visibility provided by the jacket could hardly have had any influence on the number of solo accidents. An explanation to the fewer solo accidents in the test group could be that the participants in the experiment are volunteers who believe in the effect of the jacket and thus have been affected by their belief to report accidents in such a manner that the test group reported fewer accidents than they should have objectively and the control group most likely a bit more. This hypothesis is supported by the participants answers in the final questionnaire of the project. To the question: To which degree do you believe that a bright-coloured bicycle jacket/vest can increase the safety in traffic in general? almost all participants answered that they believed in the safety effect of a bright-coloured bicycle jacket."

I think perhaps the data might be a bit skewed in favour of the hi viz jacket.


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## Crugeran Celt (30 December 2015)

I never wear it and never have and that is the thing, I am nearly 50 years old and hi viz clothing didn't exist when I started to ride or through my teens and twenties also roads were much quieter then so there was no need for it.  I always wear a riding hat but know people who are older than me who have never used one as it wasn't a normal thing for them when they learned to ride.i was riding summer before last wearing a bright pink fleece on a bay horse and when I got back a girl on the yard really had a go at me for not wearing a hi viz jacket as she 'had only just seen me' as she passed me on the road.  Now really if that was the case she needed her eyes testing, a lovely day and me in bright pink!! I think some people just like to think they know best and try to dictate to others.


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## Flame_ (30 December 2015)

At the moment the burden of responsibility is on the motorists to be looking and thinking ahead, with clear windscreens, sunglasses (and prescription glasses when required) to hand, working headlights and to drive to the conditions of the road. If there is a hazard in the road a car driver should see it. Many motorists fail to live up to this responsibility and it has become necessary for vulnerable road users to adopt as many methods of self-preservation as possible but it is not right. 

The op wanted valid reasons for not wearing high viz and while I don't think they outweigh the valid reasons for wearing high viz, I think increasing motorists' complacency by making it generally less necessary for them to have to concentrate and think ahead, along with the shifting of responsibly to the victims are important ones.


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## Hanson (30 December 2015)

CC..I am gob smacked...because wasn't available when you learnt to ride, but is now now, that's the reason you don't use it?!

Computers and smart phones weren't available, but you are using one now. It's called progress.  The girl who told you she couldn't see you, obviously thought it worthwhile to take the time to tell you.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (30 December 2015)

Crugeran Celt said:



			I never wear it and never have and that is the thing, I am nearly 50 years old and hi viz clothing didn't exist when I started to ride or through my teens and twenties also roads were much quieter then so there was no need for it.  I always wear a riding hat but know people who are older than me who have never used one as it wasn't a normal thing for them when they learned to ride.i was riding summer before last wearing a bright pink fleece on a bay horse and when I got back a girl on the yard really had a go at me for not wearing a hi viz jacket as she 'had only just seen me' as she passed me on the road.  Now really if that was the case she needed her eyes testing, a lovely day and me in bright pink!! I think some people just like to think they know best and try to dictate to others.
		
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Age isn't an issue really, is it? perhaps its more the 'I am older therefore I am more visible and safer' perhaps? 

I'm in my mid 50's. Yes I had the hat with knicker elastic in the 60's, but when the skulls came out (BS4472 in 1980) I got one as was chasing that year, in the early 80's I used cyclists sam brown belts and tabards for road work - just like the PC did for R&R/safety tests back then.

'Back then' people also wore soft felt hats to ride, or headscarves, we also used heavy canvas new zealand rugs and horses were stalled on rope and log, we had metal horrid water buckets (******* to lift!) and so many other items that have mostly been eradicated (hurrah!) for comfort, safety or just evolvement.

Like Neddyman said further up this thread, I wear my hi viz to be seen, usually by dog walkers, cyclists etc on the off road riding I do most of the time. Its paid dividends, as many have slowed or caught up errant dogs.

Your choice on what to wear, your horse cannot speak tho.


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## The wife (30 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			There is some work on this in the work place I remember my brother telling me about this he's an expert in this sort of thing  .
		
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This is actually true. I am trying to remember what psychological study it was but I will stand corrected if it isn't the mere-exposure phenomenon. Basically once a person becomes so used to seeing a particular stimuli they no longer react to it the way they used to, similar to familiarity breeds contempt. So the theory is that the more they see it, the less of it that they actually 'see'.

I do wear it these days but only so drivers cannot give us abuse. I hate wearing it with a passion. It was only 5 weeks ago that we last had a mouthful of abuse for riding on the roads, even while wearing hi-viz - haven't been out since and none of ours bar 1 will tolerate an exercise sheet flapping merrily in the wind while hacking out - its a hard enough job riding a young, fit horse as it is without a sheet trying to kill the bleeding animal too.

So yes in response to your original question there is a valid excuse. I don't want to is a perfectly valid excuse. Just like at dusk when asking the husband why he hadn't put his side lights on at 3pm, I don't want to was the reason. Personal choice. It isn't compulsary for cyclists to wear hi-viz (these are generally much more quiet and less easy to see than a horse and a darn sight more ignorant aswell), pedestrians don't need to wear it and neither do dog walkers. Sorry OP, personal opinion on this one for me.


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## YorksG (30 December 2015)

To those who say that Hi-Viz may become useless, as people get used to seeing it, we have found that the best response we get is to the movement of Hi-Viz catching the drivers eye. We use flourescent and reflective leg wraps, always. We have had many comments about how they alert drivers to us being there. We have had a car full of boy racers slow down to shout "Nice socks" 
We also use flourescent martingale type straps, have hat bands and Flouro jackets. We have exercise sheets for all and intend to start the younsters wearing them when out on roads unridden.


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## Pearlsasinger (30 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			A persons riding is not improved by wearing hi vis .
Its improved by hard work sweat and effort .
		
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I quite agree but do not see how that is relevant to this thread. 

 My point was that some dreadful riding can indeed be seen on the roads and tracks but that even poor riders and their horses can be made that bit safer by giving drivers/cyclists/dogwalkers etc a few seconds more notice that they are there.  And that poor riders may not have reactive horses, so are possibly safer than they look.
I have seen disgraceful riding at shows too, wearing show gear doesn't make a good rider either, again hard work , sweat and effort are necessary.


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## Crugeran Celt (30 December 2015)

Hanson it's not the reason I don't use it but it isn't something I have ever thought about. I don't need to ride on roads as the lane I live on leads directly onto a mountain.  If I ride on the road I always ride at quiet times when there is very little traffic or I stick to lanes that are only occasionally used by farm traffic. Perhaps if I lived in a busy area I would be more concious of it. A friend of mine rides a young horse and she always wears one that says young horse on it. I have no objection to them and obviously if you are going to ride in poor light or busy roads it's very sensible to be seen but I really don't think every rider needs to wear one all the time.


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## YorksG (30 December 2015)

The wife said:



			This is actually true. I am trying to remember what psychological study it was but I will stand corrected if it isn't the mere-exposure phenomenon. Basically once a person becomes so used to seeing a particular stimuli they no longer react to it the way they used to, similar to familiarity breeds contempt. So the theory is that the more they see it, the less of it that they actually 'see'.

I do wear it these days but only so drivers cannot give us abuse. I hate wearing it with a passion. It was only 5 weeks ago that we last had a mouthful of abuse for riding on the roads, even while wearing hi-viz - haven't been out since and none of ours bar 1 will tolerate an exercise sheet flapping merrily in the wind while hacking out - its a hard enough job riding a young, fit horse as it is without a sheet trying to kill the bleeding animal too.

So yes in response to your original question there is a valid excuse. I don't want to is a perfectly valid excuse. Just like at dusk when asking the husband why he hadn't put his side lights on at 3pm, I don't want to was the reason. Personal choice. It isn't compulsary for cyclists to wear hi-viz (these are generally much more quiet and less easy to see than a horse and a darn sight more ignorant aswell), pedestrians don't need to wear it and neither do dog walkers. Sorry OP, personal opinion on this one for me.
		
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With regard to the youngsters not coping with exercise sheets when hacking, do you not practise this in the school? Do your youngsters not wear rugs for turn out? I am quite concerned that some-one would not wear Hi-Viz because their horse chose not to!


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## Goldenstar (30 December 2015)

Hanson said:



			CC..I am gob smacked...because wasn't available when you learnt to ride, but is now now, that's the reason you don't use it?!

Computers and smart phones weren't available, but you are using one now. It's called progress.  The girl who told you she couldn't see you, obviously thought it worthwhile to take the time to tell you.
		
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Well I am older than CC and I wear a hi vis coat .
However you can't argue that a horse wearing a hi vis sheet is not visible just because the rider had not got hi vis on the torso.
And as an older rider I do find it impossible to find a coat where I am comfortable with the cut .
I can not wear running and cycling stuff it does not fit me and I look awful  I need well made well cut riding clothing why oh why isn't there any ?
The quality and choice in riding wear has got worse all I can find is relatively cheap rubbish .


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## Hanson (30 December 2015)

Fair enough CC, if you don't have any need to ride on the road and have direct access to off road hacking (lucky you!), then it is your choice if you wear hi vis etc or not. Personally I still would as it helps emergency services to locate you, if the worst happens. But entirely your choice.  Your post didn't make that clear and I assumed you did roadwork, sorry.

However when we SHARE the roads with other users, the out of courtesy to them, we should make ourselves as visible as possible.


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## Goldenstar (30 December 2015)

FestiveG said:



			With regard to the youngsters not coping with exercise sheets when hacking, do you not practise this in the school? Do your youngsters not wear rugs for turn out? I am quite concerned that some-one would not wear Hi-Viz because their horse chose not to!
		
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We have had horses who won't tolerate sheets in windy weather .
Anyone having trouble should try a thermatex expensive but better than the usual hi vis sheet .


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## The wife (30 December 2015)

FestiveG said:



			With regard to the youngsters not coping with exercise sheets when hacking, do you not practise this in the school? Do your youngsters not wear rugs for turn out? I am quite concerned that some-one would not wear Hi-Viz because their horse chose not to!
		
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We wear hi-viz but not hi-viz exercise sheets. Of course they wear rugs and it will of course wear them while riding out on the tracks where it is away from traffic but I have yet to find a hi-viz exercise sheet that is not rustly or one that fits well as I have them fitted 'race-horse' style on the rump rather than sitting on the tail like most people seem to do. The thermatex/wool/material ones are grand as if the wind is blowing up too much you can tuck them under your bottom and stop them flapping but I am not risking life and limb on a rustly, awkward fitting, un-foldable hi-viz on a traffic shy young horse for the sake of it wearing a bright yellow sheet.

If the makers of said hi-viz made a traditional fitting (read that as one designed to fit a race-horse) that didn't rustle ever time the horse took a step side-ways then I still wouldn't wear one unless they needed it. IMHO exercise sheets should be worn for the comfort of the horse, ie) to keep the quarters warm while warming up/steady exercise, if they don't need one, they don't wear one - taking aside my issues with them anyway.


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## The wife (30 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			We have had horses who won't tolerate sheets in windy weather .
Anyone having trouble should try a thermatex expensive but better than the usual hi vis sheet .
		
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It isn't just me then, we had one particular horse who was so reactive you just could not put a sheet on him. Even in windy conditions in the field he would spook at his own rug. He was a panic runner so there is not a hope in hell I would have instigated him running, let alone on the roads. The wool ones or traditional ones I do not have an issue with on the whole. If you are having problems you can fold them under and sit on them. the hi-viz ones you just cannot do this with. My point was I do not have an issue with sheets if they need them but I do not like the way hi-viz sheets fit, sound or feel.


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## ILuvCowparsely (30 December 2015)

Booboos said:



			Brilliant argument, this deserves a gold star. Along the same lines cars should stop having their headlights on in the dark because the more they are used the more other drivers will take them for granted and their effectiveness will decline. Everyone knows you should randomly switch your headlines on and off to startle other drivers into seeing them.
		
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lmao this is exactly what my husband just said


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## ILuvCowparsely (30 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Some horses are not safe in sheets .
The thermatex ones are the best I have found for nervous of sheet horses .
I wish I would find a hi vis walker rug for the lead horses has anybody found one ?
		
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I use my yellow square one with a roller and it does just find leading or i use this one with a roller

http://www.masta.co.uk/catalogue/horse-rugs/exercise-sheets/waterproof-exercise-rug/


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## ILuvCowparsely (30 December 2015)

Crugeran Celt said:



			I never wear it and never have and that is the thing, I am nearly 50 years old and hi viz clothing didn't exist when I started to ride or through my teens and twenties also roads were much quieter then so there was no need for it.  I always wear a riding hat but know people who are older than me who have never used one as it wasn't a normal thing for them when they learned to ride.i was riding summer before last wearing a bright pink fleece on a bay horse and when I got back a girl on the yard really had a go at me for not wearing a hi viz jacket as she 'had only just seen me' as she passed me on the road.  Now really if that was the case she needed her eyes testing, a lovely day and me in bright pink!! I think some people just like to think they know best and try to dictate to others.
		
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 You comment on age falls short as  I am 54 and I wear it and would never put my horse at risk, and whether they were around or not it is not a valid excuse not to wear it.


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## ILuvCowparsely (30 December 2015)

FestiveG said:



			With regard to the youngsters not coping with exercise sheets when hacking, do you not practise this in the school? Do your youngsters not wear rugs for turn out? I am quite concerned that some-one would not wear Hi-Viz because their horse chose not to!
		
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Good point and do these riders not use other exercise rugs like wool ones or warm wrap around, if they do  the hi viz is no different


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## Flame_ (30 December 2015)

Booboos said:



			Brilliant argument, this deserves a gold star. Along the same lines cars should stop having their headlights on in the dark because the more they are used the more other drivers will take them for granted and their effectiveness will decline. Everyone knows you should randomly switch your headlines on and off to startle other drivers into seeing them.
		
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Car drivers are not obliged to cover their vehicles in florescent before dark in case other drivers are too blind/ gormless/ are going too fast to see and react to them being there. Lights are important in poor visibility, for all road users. I often use lights for riding at dusk this time of year and a horse rider moaned at me because "her horse didn't like my flashing lights". There are just too many people trying to co-exist, lol.


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## ILuvCowparsely (30 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			We have had horses who won't tolerate sheets in windy weather .
Anyone having trouble should try a thermatex expensive but better than the usual hi vis sheet .
		
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So why not lunge them in one till used to it??  We did that with a flighty mare who hated the rustle sound.  Now you can throw it on and she wont bat an eyelid.  Desensitize horse to something and they will not bother with it anymore.


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## Flame_ (30 December 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			Good point and do these riders not use other exercise rugs like wool ones or warm wrap around, if they do  the hi viz is no different
		
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No, I never clip hindquarters - much safer and easier than riding in rugs.


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## dollyanna (30 December 2015)

For those that can't use sheets, there are things like the parson's rump that increase visibility without flapping around.
I use mesh sheets, they are silent, no rustle, fold up easily to be sat on if required, aren't slippery, and are light enough to go over a naked horse or a normal exercise sheet if needed. They aren't waterproof but if you can't have rustle then I assume you can't have waterproof either so that isn't a problem.


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## twiggy2 (30 December 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			Good point and do these riders not use other exercise rugs like wool ones or warm wrap around, if they do  the hi viz is no different
		
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It has not been cold enough yet this year so no


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## dibbin (30 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Some horses are not safe in sheets .
The thermatex ones are the best I have found for nervous of sheet horses .
I wish I would find a hi vis walker rug for the lead horses has anybody found one ?
		
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Our local place has ultra reflective Horseware ones, but I think they're only for riding.


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## dreamcometrue (30 December 2015)

As I have said on the other thread about hi-viz, you would be unlikely to get much compensation even for life changing injuries if you are not wearing hi-viz.  Fact.
You had the choice and you chose not to.  Therefore not due care and attention.


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## neddy man (30 December 2015)

without me reading through them all again ,has anyone actually said why THEY dont wear any, as per the OP question.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (30 December 2015)

neddy man said:



			without me reading through them all again ,has anyone actually said why THEY dont wear any, as per the OP question.
		
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Yup, seems like 'personal choice' in the first dozen posts, but looking back its clear that they are :
A, mostly older riders and B, far better riders than most.........


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## dibbin (30 December 2015)

neddy man said:



			without me reading through them all again ,has anyone actually said why THEY dont wear any, as per the OP question.
		
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Beyond "because I don't want to and you can't make me", not really.


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## Pascal96 (30 December 2015)

First of all I am well over retirement age and I now always use Hi Viz so being older is not a good reason for not using it.  There have been several occasions in the past when I have come upon riders and horses who were not wearing any and haven't seen them until I was nearly upon them so I soon saw the value of using it.  I also agree with one of the previous posters who said about the value of using reflective leg wraps.  A non riding friend said that when driving it was the first thing he noticed as it was more in his eye line than a reflective sheet.  I also agree with the point that cyclist, walkers and motor cyclists should use them as well.  When we had a dog a neighbor pointed out how far away he had seen me when I was taking her for a walk down a dark country lane at dusk.  Living where I do in the country with no other lighting it make sense to me to make yourself as visible as possible when out on the roads.  Yes as others have said the will always be idiots who take no notice whatever you are wearing but for the majority it will make a difference.


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## luckyoldme (30 December 2015)

The Xmas Furry said:



			Yup, seems like 'personal choice' in the first dozen posts, but looking back its clear that they are :
A, mostly older riders and B, far better riders than most.........
		
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i like that!!!!!


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## neddy man (30 December 2015)

i am in my 60's so it cant be that reason,  must mean the other 39 riders on our yard are better than me, oh well guess i will have to live with that. 



luckyoldme said:



			i like that!!!!!
		
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## Equine_Dream (30 December 2015)

I personally dont wear it because my yard has direct access to miles of offroad hacking so I never ride on the roads. Ive never really given it much thought.
Also regarding exercise sheets,  there is no way I would put one on my pair. My gelding isn't clipped as he lives out all year so would bake, and my mare has a chaser clip and only needs to do a bit of trotting before shes sweating so I doubt she'd appreciate an extra layer.


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## ILuvCowparsely (30 December 2015)

dreamcometrue said:



			As I have said on the other thread about hi-viz, you would be unlikely to get much compensation even for life changing injuries if you are not wearing hi-viz.  Fact.
You had the choice and you chose not to.  Therefore not due care and attention.
		
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Yes but as I stated on this thread  the  horse rider will be partly to blame if there is an accident with a horse if not wearing hi viz.  Fact. 

The police will deter the rider from pressing charges or going further  if no hi viz worn by the horse or rider due to the driver will say they did not see the horse regardless of the day time accident.


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## The wife (30 December 2015)

The Xmas Furry said:



			Yup, seems like 'personal choice' in the first dozen posts, but looking back its clear that they are :
A, mostly older riders and B, far better riders than most.........
		
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I am neither (I just feel it) well pushing 30 odd. And i certainly would have a questionable ability onboard most animals. I just choose not to wear anything than a hi-viz vest and even then it's because I feel I should not because I want  to.


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## Merrymoles (30 December 2015)

Reading this thread has made me wonder why, if there is no decent research on the effect of wearing high vis/reflective clothing, so many jobs demand it as a standard part of PPE equipment? For example, highways, construction, railways, police, fire, etc?

I am completely comfortable with high vis, wearing it during my working life as well as on my horse (and sometimes having to wash it in a rush first if we've had a particularly splatty ride). The excuse of bad designs/cuts simply doesn't work when there are so many styles, sizes and types available. Search any decent workwear website.

This morning on my way to the horses I passed two sets of dog walkers in the dark on the same stretch of national speed limit country lane. One lot had high vis/reflective coats on both them and their dogs and the second did not. I saw the first lot far sooner, even though they were much further away from me than the second lot. That is the only reason I need to be in favour. I was doing about 30mph due to the weather conditions and driving pretty carefully. I was in no danger of hitting the second group of dogs walkers because of that but definitely did not have the same amount of time to react as I did to those further up the road.

Yes, it is completely personal choice but I would always want to give my animals as much protection as possible. For the same reason I walk my own dogs wearing hi vis on our unlit country lane.


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## alainax (30 December 2015)

neddy man said:



			without me reading through them all again ,has anyone actually said why THEY dont wear any, as per the OP question.
		
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Yes!

But would wear it if was hacking where there was traffic


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## FfionWinnie (30 December 2015)

ycbm said:



			I also wonder how many people who say it doesn't work are grateful that speed cameras are painted yellow 

Click to expand...

Ha ha good point. 

Of course  they will claim they never ever ever make a mistake with the speed limit as well because of their super sonic spidey vision.


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## Nudibranch (30 December 2015)

I think we are all going to have to agree to disagree on this one. It's clear that to some people exercising their personal freedom is more important than protecting themselves, their animals and other road users.
I would just like to say that I really hope I don't have to live with the consequences of hitting someone who chooses to express their freedom of choice in this way...the group of local hackers who ride out until dusk on bays in dark clothing...my neighbour who runs before dawn dressed in black...or the dog walker in the nearby village who I literally didn't see until I passed them, disguised in the grass on the verge. Sure, its your choice not to wear hi vis, but if I can see you I can slow down and anticipate that spook, that dog jumping on its lead, that runner slipping on the ice. I just don't want to have to pick up the pieces. Literally. At least give me a choice too.


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## Crugeran Celt (30 December 2015)

Times have changed and there is so much more traffic on the roads these days and it's that fact that seems to dictate that hi viz is now needed. As to suggest that people who chose not to wear it thinking we are better riders as someone has suggested us ridiculous That's like me saying you are a better rider because you wear it. Makes no sense at all. I don't wear it becsuse I don't have to do any road work. Simple.


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## Tobiano (30 December 2015)

interesting thread!

A couple of things that haven't been mentioned.

I have never seen the Hunt go past dressed in hi-viz, and they definitely go on the roads.   I am not sure what reception one would get if one turned up in hi viz to hunt - does anyone know?  Therefore is it a valid reason not to wear one because you are hunting?

second point is, air jackets.  If you put something on top of them it can interfere with them operating.  in the past I have had to not wear a hi viz tabard in order not to interfere with my air jacket.

I would say that I am pretty safety conscious, but I don't normally wear hi viz, mainly because I am not normally far from home or on the roads, as we have lovely off road hacking on the farm where I keep my horse.  I do go on the roads maybe once a week for up to 50 yards, and wouldn't go in poor visibility whether I had hi viz on or not.  

I don't put hi viz sheets on my horse because he would get too hot.  

Those seem to me like reasonable reasons not to wear hi viz (apart from the hunting one which I don't really understand still!)


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## oldie48 (30 December 2015)

I always wear hi-viz and won't hack out with anyone who isn't also wearing it. I also make a point of stopping my car (if safe to do so) and having word with anyone I see riding without it. Yes, I have had abuse and am very happy to  accept that but take the view if I stop only one person from being hit by a car then it's worthwhile. Most people say they normally do  wear it but just forgot!


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## D66 (30 December 2015)

Whilst I agree that its a good idea to wear hi viz and always do, I don't think it should be made a legal requirement that all  riders should do so all the time.  
I have in the past had to lead stray horses along a road to get them to a safe field - this would be illegal.  I can imagine that someone out hacking may lose some hi viz, (i.e. horses leg wraps come off),  would it be illegal to go home on the road without it?  You have an accident, you weren't going on the road so you haven't got hi vis, can you go to the road to go home or wait there to be collected?
All these scenarios are solvable atm by our common sense approach of "wear it because its the right thing to do", but it's not illegal not to.
It would be even more complicated if all non motorised road users had to wear hi viz.  it is OK if you are intending to walk along the road, but a nightmare if you have an accident or emergency, or even if someone parks their car on the pavement. Are you allowed to step into the road to pass it without a fluorescent jacket on? 
The Highway code already advises you to wear hi viz. I also note that in the dark, and i presume low light, that we should be wearing lights on our arms and/or stirrups showing white forwards and red back. Any one do this?


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## Count Oggy (30 December 2015)

Tobiano said:



			interesting thread!

A couple of things that haven't been mentioned.

I have never seen the Hunt go past dressed in hi-viz, and they definitely go on the roads.   I am not sure what reception one would get if one turned up in hi viz to hunt - does anyone know?  Therefore is it a valid reason not to wear one because you are hunting?

second point is, air jackets.  If you put something on top of them it can interfere with them operating.  in the past I have had to not wear a hi viz tabard in order not to interfere with my air jacket.

I would say that I am pretty safety conscious, but I don't normally wear hi viz, mainly because I am not normally far from home or on the roads, as we have lovely off road hacking on the farm where I keep my horse.  I do go on the roads maybe once a week for up to 50 yards, and wouldn't go in poor visibility whether I had hi viz on or not.  

I don't put hi viz sheets on my horse because he would get too hot.  

Those seem to me like reasonable reasons not to wear hi viz (apart from the hunting one which I don't really understand still!)
		
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When hunt are around this way they completely block the road, there are so many horses and followers it would be impossible to miss them, you generally hear them first anyway. They are not the same as one bay horse on a miserable day or in the shadow of trees.


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## alainax (30 December 2015)

Tobiano said:



			second point is, air jackets.  If you put something on top of them it can interfere with them operating.  in the past I have had to not wear a hi viz tabard in order not to interfere with my air jacket.
		
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I wear  mine under. Not ideal, but better than nothing.


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## YorksG (30 December 2015)

The HIt-Air jackets I recently got for Sis and me are both in Fluro yellow and go over our fluro Joyriderz jackets, so it is possible to wear airjackets and Hi-Viz


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## Pearlsasinger (30 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Well I am older than CC and I wear a hi vis coat .
However you can't argue that a horse wearing a hi vis sheet is not visible just because the rider had not got hi vis on the torso.
And as an older rider I do find it impossible to find a coat where I am comfortable with the cut .
I can not wear running and cycling stuff it does not fit me and I look awful  I need well made well cut riding clothing why oh why isn't there any ?
The quality and choice in riding wear has got worse all I can find is relatively cheap rubbish .
		
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TBH, I *think* I am older than you GS.  I have a JoyRiderz hi-viz jacket for winter riding, which was not cheap and a tabard/waistcoat for warmer weather.  I do wear cyclying tee-shirts in summer sometimes but then, so long as I am comfortable, I do not care what I look like.


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## ycbm (30 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Well I am older than CC and I wear a hi vis coat .
However you can't argue that a horse wearing a hi vis sheet is not visible just because the rider had not got hi vis on the torso.
And as an older rider I do find it impossible to find a coat where I am comfortable with the cut .
I can not wear running and cycling stuff it does not fit me and I look awful  I need well made well cut riding clothing why oh why isn't there any ?
The quality and choice in riding wear has got worse all I can find is relatively cheap rubbish .
		
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I wear my every day coat and put a full sleeve work wear vest over the top, (less than a fiver on ebay)   but I'm another who couldn't care less what I look like as long as the car speeding round the blind bend stops before he hits me. It's also much easier than changing coats to ride out in. I don't find hi viz a practical colour for dirty stable work.


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## spacie1977 (31 December 2015)

Count Oggy said:



http://www.naylors.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/hi-viz-autumn-2014-poster-1.jpg

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I was just about to post this too. It was produced by the BHS and there are lots of similar government posters targeting motorcyclists. The phrase 'wouldn't be seen dead in it' is rather fitting!


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## minkymoo (31 December 2015)

Nudibranch said:



			This. I believe, once upon a time, driving whilst drunk was also a choice....
		
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Hang on, how on earth can you equate drink driving with not wearing hi viz?! Are you mad?!

If the stats for not wearing hi viz are anything close to those that drink driving used to be, there'd be an uproar were people to even leave the house without hi viz on, never mind on a horse!

Sometimes I really think there are people on this forum who are so stuck up high on their high horse that they completely forget there's a normal world out there. 

1) I'd very much like to see the stats on horses and riders getting killed for not wearing hi viz
2) I'd like to know what insurance companies wouldn't cover you if you weren't wearing hi viz (because mine isn't one of them!)
3) you can't berate people for freedom of choice
4) hi viz does not give you actual invincibility, just more chance of being seen

I'd like to remind posters that driving with due consideration is the law and whilst obviously wearing hi viz (which I do btw) ensures a driver sees you earlier, it is no guarantee that you will not be hit by an idiot driver. 

Honestly, sometimes I wonder about this forum. Some people on it can be so irrational. I'd also like to reiterate (as there will be those that wouldn't have read my post properly) that yes, I do tend hack out in hi viz, because it is my choice to do so, just as it is to occasionally not.


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## ycbm (31 December 2015)

spacie1977 said:



			I was just about to post this too. It was produced by the BHS and there are lots of similar government posters targeting motorcyclists. The phrase 'wouldn't be seen dead in it' is rather fitting!
		
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I also smile when I see the motorcycle safety posters around here. 

They say "Shiny side up"


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## Goldenstar (31 December 2015)

ycbm said:



			I wear my every day coat and put a full sleeve work wear vest over the top, (less than a fiver on ebay)   but I'm another who couldn't care less what I look like as long as the car speeding round the blind bend stops before he hits me. It's also much easier than changing coats to ride out in. I don't find hi viz a practical colour for dirty stable work.
		
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Well good for you just because you have found an acceptable way forward does not mean I have .
I want well cut purpose made riding  clothes and no one is making it I ride every day in breeches and long leather boots and I cannot find hi vis clothing that does not restrict and is comfortable .
While running and cycling stuff works fine in summer it's not suitable for hacking on horses in winter .


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## ycbm (31 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Well good for you just because you have found an acceptable way forward does not mean I have .
I want well cut purpose made riding  clothes and no one is making it I ride every day in breeches and long leather boots and I cannot find hi vis clothing that does not restrict and is comfortable .
While running and cycling stuff works fine in summer it's not suitable for hacking on horses in winter .
		
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Was that sarcasm?  All I'm doing is sharing my cheap solution with others. You've already made it abundantly clear that you aren't interested in cheap solutions, why do you keep posting saying the same thing over and over again?


I ride every day in Mountain Whorehouse coats from the sales, fifteen quid jodphurs,  and Decathlon rubber riding boots    But if I did want a well cut, expensive hi viz coat and there wasn't one available, it wouldn't stop me wearing hi viz because my experience is that it improves my safety on the road by a big margin.


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## Goldenstar (31 December 2015)

ycbm said:



			Was that sarcasm?  All I'm doing is sharing my cheap solution with others. You've already made it abundantly clear that you aren't interested in cheap solutions, why do you keep posting saying the same thing over and over again?


I ride every day in Mountain Whorehouse coats from the sales, fifteen quid jodphurs,  and Decathlon rubber riding boots    But if I did want a well cut, expensive hi viz coat and there wasn't one available, it wouldn't stop me wearing hi viz because my experience is that it improves my safety on the road by a big margin.
		
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Where have I said it stops me wearing Hi Vis .


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## ycbm (31 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Where have I said it stops me wearing Hi Vis .
		
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Where did I say it did?


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## Mooseontheloose (31 December 2015)

Can't read all the way through these posts, as some seem downright rude and stupid, but what I would say is the following:
Wear as much hi viz as you want, and I would seriously encourage it (have been a BHS Riding and Road safety trainer/examiner) but that doesn't mean you then have the right to ride two or three abreast down a country lane gossiping. Secondly, put some hi viz on the horse's legs - it's all very well the rider having a tabard on but in the gloaming down lanes with high banks and pot holes you're looking more at the road and slightly down, you don't see the rider, you see the horse first.
It's rather like people putting a red ribbon on their horse's tail because it kicks - that doesn't absolve you from the responsbility of keeping your horse out of the way of others. Wearing hiviz won't make you immortal, you need to ride correctly too.


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## Kat (31 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Well good for you just because you have found an acceptable way forward does not mean I have .
I want well cut purpose made riding  clothes and no one is making it I ride every day in breeches and long leather boots and I cannot find hi vis clothing that does not restrict and is comfortable .
While running and cycling stuff works fine in summer it's not suitable for hacking on horses in winter .
		
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I put a hiviz cycling gilet in very thin fabric over my expensive waterproof coat in winter. It means that I don't have to compromise on the features of my outerwear for safety. If the light is poor I put hiviz LED armbands on too. Sealskinso gloves have reflective strips on them and I wear these for hacking though  they now make their riding gloves in full hi-viz. A hat band is also very effective.  I would think that there is a solution in there for you GS



Count Oggy said:



			When hunt are around this way they completely block the road, there are so many horses and followers it would be impossible to miss them, you generally hear them first anyway. They are not the same as one bay horse on a miserable day or in the shadow of trees.
		
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The hunt I go with have a vehicle behind on the roads and that is showing hazard lights. 



alainax said:



			I wear  mine under. Not ideal, but better than nothing. 






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Get a long sleeved hi-viz and you will be much more visible 



Tobiano said:



			interesting thread!

A couple of things that haven't been mentioned.

I have never seen the Hunt go past dressed in hi-viz, and they definitely go on the roads.   I am not sure what reception one would get if one turned up in hi viz to hunt - does anyone know?  Therefore is it a valid reason not to wear one because you are hunting?

second point is, air jackets.  If you put something on top of them it can interfere with them operating.  in the past I have had to not wear a hi viz tabard in order not to interfere with my air jacket.

I would say that I am pretty safety conscious, but I don't normally wear hi viz, mainly because I am not normally far from home or on the roads, as we have lovely off road hacking on the farm where I keep my horse.  I do go on the roads maybe once a week for up to 50 yards, and wouldn't go in poor visibility whether I had hi viz on or not.  

I don't put hi viz sheets on my horse because he would get too hot.  

Those seem to me like reasonable reasons not to wear hi viz (apart from the hunting one which I don't really understand still!)
		
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If you can't put a sheet on your horse try a Parsons rump, leg bands or neck straps/ breastplate.  

You can buy air jackets in hiviz or put a long sleeved hiviz under them and remain visible. You can also use things  like hathat bands arm bands etc to increase visibility. 

Remember it isn't just about cars on the roads seeing you it is about aircraft, mountain bikers, shooters, dog walkers, Greenlaners,  farmers, and the emergency services seeing you. 

I would not wish to see hiviz made compulsory but for me on a basic risk assessment there are many good reasons to wear it, and no real disadvantages it is also cheap and easy so I always wear at the very least a tabard when I hack. And if the light is poor of it is getting late I display a white light in front and a red one to the rear as I am legally required to do.


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## Crugeran Celt (31 December 2015)

Well said minkymoo.


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## Darbs (31 December 2015)

I have read this thread with interest, maybe I can give the pure (non-horse related) safety related view on hi-viz clothing.

I have been in high risk health & safety management for over 25 years, I have a Masters Degree in Safety Management and I am currently Global Head of Health & Safety for a division of one of the worlds largest companies, who are also the worlds largest logistics company... we buy more hi-viz clothing than any other organisation on the planet! Hence I hope my experience with high visibility clothing may be of use.

Wearing hi-viz clothing around vehicles reduces the risk of being hit and the severity of injures if you are hit. Fact. 

We would not spend millions of pounds each year on high visibility clothing for our employees if there was not a clear link with being able to be seen more clearly and reducing the chance of being hit by a vehicle. It makes drivers more likely to see you, sooner and react quicker ideally to avoid a collision, but also if they do hit you, they are likely to be travelling slower at the point of impact, hence reduce severity.

You will note the use of a number of critical words there, such as reduce, likely and severity.

Safety is not an on/off switch. There are few situations where risk can be completely eliminated, unless the activity ceases, and with riding horses that's not the aim. Although avoiding riding on roads does reduce the risk significantly, but not eliminate it. It is exactly the same reason that new cars have daytime running lights that are permanently illumined. It makes vehicle easier to see, sooner. It does not eliminate collisions, it reduces the risk.

Wearing high visibility clothing will not make you visible of you are obscured from the drivers view (such as by a reversing vehicle) or where the driver is travelling so fast he cannot stop within the distance he can see (but it may reduce severity of the impact as he could see you sooner hence it may occur at a lower speed).

Interestingly in our organisation we have also used 'high-contrast' clothing for some roles, which seems to work well, but that has no reflective element so does not work as well at night or where there are no external light sources.

The overall aim should be to wear something that distinguishes you very clearly from your background. Yellow/orange high visibility clothing with reflective strips is designed for that purpose, hence does the best job, and is readily available. White is also highly visible, including in low-light conditions.

Clearly for horse riders it is personal choice as there is no legal or employment requirement (in most cases), it boils down to the riders individual attitude to their own and their horses safety, just as it does for cyclists and other vulnerable road users. 

I was bought up to take the approach that it is no use lying in hospital with both legs cut off saying, "well it wasn't my fault". I should also add that I am a motorcyclist and racing cyclist, so I am well aware of exposure to road risk.


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## minkymoo (31 December 2015)

Thank you Crugeran, I'm really shocked by some of the vitriol on this post. 

To insinuate that someone deserves to die because they're not wearing hi viz is appalling. 

No one would say a woman deserves to be raped because she's wearing a short skirt would they?! It's complete victim blaming and I'm genuinely shocked by it. 

I'm all for wearing hi viz, I really am but sometimes I don't. I go for a little plod around the block, some of it on quiet country roads, some on fields and I don't wear any hi viz. if I go further afield and know I'm going to encounter more cars going at speed, then I will. It doesn't mean I deserve to die if I get hit by a car!

Honestly people, get a grip.


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## humblepie (31 December 2015)

I always wear a hi viz jacket even if just mooching down the country lane -  did have drawbacks years ago when I kept horse at a yard where the school was rubbish so used to sneak into one of their fields to school very early morning before the farmer appeared but always used to think I was too easily seen!   If going off road, I think it is also important as it gives cyclists/dog walkers etc more chance to see you early.


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## TTK (31 December 2015)

Well said Darbs, nice to have an informed rather than emotional POV.


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## MagicMelon (31 December 2015)

Im assuming there's some argueing going on here looking at the amount of pages... personally, I dont see how there can be. Yes, everyone should wear high viz. Its intelligent to do so and anything that increases your chances of getting home safely should surely be encouraged.  I drive past a lady yesterday hacking out, she was riding against trees and wearing nothing but brown (horse was also bay) - I must admit that she was NOT very obvious especially in the misty light. Why on earth she didnt wear something high viz...  

I wear a Rockfish bright yellow jacket for ridiing out, if its hot in the summer I wear one of those old school tabards.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (31 December 2015)

Darbs, excellent post :cool3:


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## Mooseontheloose (31 December 2015)

An old friend fell off one christmas morning riding on her farm. Luckily - and it sounds odd to say it - her horse took to the road to get home so people saw it and the alarm was raised. She was badly injured and had to be airlifted. They had the devil of a job finding her in her old barbour and dark jods. She would never have thought to put on hi viz to just jog round the farm.
But I would add to my earlier post, how many people have done their Riding and road safety? A driving test recently? read their highway code since passing their test? We all bear a bit of responsibility for our own safety.


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## Ben2684 (31 December 2015)

I wear a high viz cycling top, with long arms. Hacking where I am is only accessible by crossing (and at times travelling along) quite busy roads. I feel more visible and feel I need to 'meet drivers half way' I'm expecting them to be polite and courteous towards me, so therefore need to do all I can to be visible. I also ensure I at least nod and smile if not put a hand up to all that pass having slowed down etc. In an ideal world I wouldn't have to ride on the road, but we have to share it and whether you are on foot, horse, wheels or anything else I believe you should give others the best chance you can of seeing you and acting accordingly. 

Some years ago I needed to be airlifted following a nasty riding accident and high viz definitely helped them, my riding buddy had to go to the nearest house (about 2 miles away) to use the phone as we had no signal.. The ambulance found me with just his directions and instructions that I was wearing a high viz jacket. 

Would feel very strange riding without it now, same as BP. Would be quite good if BP's came in high viz too!!


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## teapot (31 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Well good for you just because you have found an acceptable way forward does not mean I have .
I want well cut purpose made riding  clothes and no one is making it I ride every day in breeches and long leather boots and I cannot find hi vis clothing that does not restrict and is comfortable .
While running and cycling stuff works fine in summer it's not suitable for hacking on horses in winter .
		
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Err you can get winter weight waterproof running coats/jackets in bright colours, designed to be used in winter...


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## teapot (31 December 2015)

minkymoo said:



			It doesn't mean I deserve to die if I get hit by a car!
		
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No it doesn't, and has anyone actually said that?  

There is an element of personal responsibility though, whenever a horse goes out into a public environment, and making yourself as safe as possible, IN CASE of an accident. 

I just think back to the trial I had for jury service this year and I can vividly remember the photos we were shown. Hi viz may have meant a different outcome for ALL involved...


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## ycbm (31 December 2015)

There's no problem at all wearing high viz over an air jacket. Work wear waistcoats are velcro fastened and will pop open if the airbag goes off. Just buy a size that will go over coat and air jacket.

There's also no problem with overheating the horse. Mesh quarter sheets are available. I just use a very lightweight xxl high viz waistcoat over my horse's bum, arm holes to the rear.  All off ebay for a pittance.


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## MotherOfChickens (31 December 2015)

Both Joyriderz and Rockfish seem to have gone bust, shame as I have a very good rockfish hi viz gilet. Lunarider stuff is quite well designed. I'd not not wear it, as a driver I get annoyed with cyclists and dog walkers who like to wear dark clothing against hedgerows in low sun so it makes sense for me to wear it. Contrasting colours can help too-I like wearing bright red and it really stands out in my landscape.


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## popsdosh (31 December 2015)

Going back to the original question surely the valid point is I dont have to! its that simple really.
How many of you can stick your hand up and say honestly you have never broken the speed limit. A driver of a car should dtive in accordance with all conditions and expect all eventualities . The high viz zealots seem to be trying to take away all responsibility from drivers because the other option is to bring in a 10mph speed limit on country roads which will also make a big difference to horse safety. If I go out in less than ideal conditions I will take the right precautions which will include hi viz. However seeing as its this time of year perhaps some of you may like to do a little experiment . Go out when the sun is shinig bright and low in the sky and then see which you can see best hi viz or dark clothing with the sun shining strasight in your eyes. Theres a time and a place for all sorts of safety clothing . 
I am afraid a lot of riders on the road today should not be there in the first place however they think donning a bit of hi viz takes away the basic requirements for common sense . In a life time of riding I have not as much as had a near miss on the road and that has included whipping in next to major roads your most important piece of safety equipment is between your ears and not a piece of hi viz material. If said organ says use hi viz thats fine but dont say that makes you safer than me if I dont. 

Perhaps it should be mandatory for us humans to wear hi viz at all times in life so that those driving cars know where everybody is or indeed people wont bump into each other in the street ,im afraid as stupid as it sounds thats the natural extension of whats proposed.


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## chillipup (31 December 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Perhaps it should be mandatory for us humans to wear hi viz at all times in life so that those driving cars know where everybody is or indeed people wont bump into each other in the street ,im afraid as stupid as it sounds thats the natural extension of whats proposed.
		
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You're right, it does sound stupid.


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## ozpoz (1 January 2016)

Well, I'd love to see this brand's range of clothing. I'm imagining hi vis leopard print with cut out bits?  : )  



ycbm said:



			Was that sarcasm? 


I ride every day in Mountain Whorehouse coats from the sales, fifteen quid jodphurs,  and Decathlon rubber riding boots    But if I did want a well cut, expensive hi viz coat and there wasn't one available, it wouldn't stop me wearing hi viz because my experience is that it improves my safety on the road by a big margin.
		
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## Mooseontheloose (1 January 2016)

ozpoz said:



			Well, I'd love to see this brand's range of clothing. I'm imagining hi vis leopard print with cut out bits?  : )
		
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My brain needs bleaching after that picture. Imagine the lack of knickers could be itchy too!


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## ycbm (1 January 2016)

ozpoz said:



			Well, I'd love to see this brand's range of clothing. I'm imagining hi vis leopard print with cut out bits?  : )
		
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It's what we call it, I can't remember why we started, but now we can't stop 

Does anyone ever pay the introductory price in Mountain Whorehouse?  Just wait a few days, and it will be cut by fifty percent!  I've got a great cycling orange breathable waterproof though. Thirty five quid. Big pocket across the bum is really useful for carrying things up to my friend's house.


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## Overread (1 January 2016)

And in other news I read in the paper that they are now painting Dartmoor ponies with reflective paint stripes to try and cut the numbers run over on the moors. It also mentioned that sheep were also being hit so I assume they too must be getting a coating of paint. 

Though it also mentioned that the paint only lasted 3 days or so so they were trying to come up with a longer lasting paint.


In other news I suspect the greater problem isn't drivers, nor cars nor reflective clothing but simply oversaturation of the system. Increase the number of cars and the number of accidents will go up no matter what you try.


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## SpottyMare (1 January 2016)

For those of you who want style with your high viz...   While her equestrian stuff isn't high viz per se, it does come in some bright colours that would stand out in daylight.  Not cheap though!   She was at Blenheim last year, and it all looked really nice quality too.

http://www.georgiaindublin.com/product/dublette-equestrian-rainjacket/

http://www.georgiaindublin.com/product/d1-style-vest-equestrian-high-viz/


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## Goldenstar (1 January 2016)

SpottyMare said:



			For those of you who want style with your high viz...   While her equestrian stuff isn't high viz per se, it does come in some bright colours that would stand out in daylight.  Not cheap though!   She was at Blenheim last year, and it all looked really nice quality too.

Ahttp://www.georgiaindublin.com/product/dublette-equestrian-rainjacket/

http://www.georgiaindublin.com/product/d1-style-vest-equestrian-high-viz/

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Gorgeous coat , and I love the ladies hi vis vest .
Thank you for posting .


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## R_Owen (1 January 2016)

There is a small yard by me. There are about 10 race horse and two girls in thier late teens who ride them. They are all bays and they wear dark clothes, its so hard to see them. Some of the horses are strong and don't always appear to be under control.

I dont understand it personally, I would never ride without HI Viz.


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## bonny (1 January 2016)

Are we the only country in the world with this obsession with health and safety ? Do riders in other countries wear high viz ? I don't know the answer for sure but I suspect it's just us ?


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## Goldenstar (1 January 2016)

bonny said:



			Are we the only country in the world with this obsession with health and safety ? Do riders in other countries wear high viz ? I don't know the answer for sure but I suspect it's just us ?
		
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It's a good question , I do think in the UK we hack more and use the roads more for riding than in other European countries .


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## Cortez (1 January 2016)

bonny said:



			Are we the only country in the world with this obsession with health and safety ? Do riders in other countries wear high viz ? I don't know the answer for sure but I suspect it's just us ?
		
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Pretty much, yes


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## Goldenstar (1 January 2016)

bonny said:



			Are we the only country in the world with this obsession with health and safety ? Do riders in other countries wear high viz ? I don't know the answer for sure but I suspect it's just us ?
		
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In many countries they have not even got round to wearing hats let alone hi vis .


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## oldie48 (1 January 2016)

bonny said:



			Are we the only country in the world with this obsession with health and safety ? Do riders in other countries wear high viz ? I don't know the answer for sure but I suspect it's just us ?
		
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Well I don't know about an obsession with H&S but I was talking to someone who hunts in a patey and won't let his children wear hi viz when they hack out as he thinks it looks stupid, he's also not that keen on them wearing BPs when they hunt either. His argument was all about the nanny state and free will but as I pointed out to him if he suffered a fall and had a serious head injury, he'd expect the NHS to sort him out and help to support his children if he didn't "make it". People who don't wish to take sensible precautions  on the basis of freedom of choice are perfectly free to pay for their medical treatment but I doubt many do.


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## Kat (1 January 2016)

Anyone who doubts that can look stylish in hi viz should look at some of the sparkle sister's  recent hacking pictures, both looked very glam in bright pink!


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## Goldenstar (1 January 2016)

oldie48 said:



			Well I don't know about an obsession with H&S but I was talking to someone who hunts in a patey and won't let his children wear hi viz when they hack out as he thinks it looks stupid, he's also not that keen on them wearing BPs when they hunt either. His argument was all about the nanny state and free will but as I pointed out to him if he suffered a fall and had a serious head injury, he'd expect the NHS to sort him out and help to support his children if he didn't "make it". People who don't wish to take sensible precautions  on the basis of freedom of choice are perfectly free to pay for their medical treatment but I doubt many do.
		
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But that's no different to people who drive badly and have accidents , eat badly and get type two diabetes , exercise too much and wear out their joints etc etc the list is endless.
Personally I only wear a BP if forced ,my BP was a factor when I broke my back it prevented my spine curving to allow it to absord the impact in what was admittedly an unusual fall therefore I chose not to wear one unless I must.


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## Cortez (1 January 2016)

It would take waaaaay more than the wearing of hi vis to convince me it was safe to ride out on the roads!


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## oldie48 (1 January 2016)

Mmm not sure I agree really, hunting is a fairly high risk ridden activity it would seem sensible to me to wear a properly secured hat, there was a letter in this weeks H&H page 15 on this. Also, I feel it's rather odd not to encourage children to wear hi viz when hacking out, there are just so many good reasons for doing so and not looking cool is a ridiculous excuse, nothing cool about being under a car! BPs are a bit of a vexed question but I would certainly want any child of mine wearing one if hunting or going XC and frankly I'd almost certainly invest in an air jacket. I'm afraid this fellow is a little gung ho!  None of these things will stop a poor rider having accidents but may give them a greater chance of walking away from one relatively unscathed.



Goldenstar said:



			But that's no different to people who drive badly and have accidents , eat badly and get type two diabetes , exercise too much and wear out their joints etc etc the list is endless.
Personally I only wear a BP if forced ,my BP was a factor when I broke my back it prevented my spine curving to allow it to absord the impact in what was admittedly an unusual fall therefore I chose not to wear one unless I must.
		
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## Darbs (1 January 2016)

bonny said:



			Are we the only country in the world with this obsession with health and safety?
		
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I can answer that with some degree of knowledge. (As I Head up Global Health & Safety for one of the worlds largest employers across 163 countries).

No, we are not the only country with an 'obsession' for health & safety, however there are three key factors that apply in the UK that make it slightly different:


Firstly, the biggest factor is insurance. In the UK you can claim against employers or third parties very easily (although it has got a little more difficult in the past couple of years). In many cases the 'obsession' with safety has got nothing to do with preventing accidents, its about a fear of either high insurance premiums for activities, not being able to get an activity insured at all or the fear of having a civil claim taken out against them. (The vast majority of accidents don't have a legal prosecution, even though there is a fear of that)

Secondly, the UK was one of the first counties globally to take a risk based (not rule based) approach to safety. This meant that risk had to be assessed by different people, which lead to an aversion to risk and the fear of getting it wrong. This is also one of the reasons health & safety gets a bad name and people recoil from it, until there is a serious accident and suddenly everybody becomes 'expert safety managers' saying what should have been done to prevent the incident before it occurred.

Thirdly, the UK adopted '_The principle of preventability_' which is preventing accidents regardless of cause. This is a very good approach to preventing people getting killed or seriously injured, but as with other aspects of health & safety it gets interpreted incorrectly and either bans trivial activities or makes them so restrictive that they cannot take place. 

Health & safety law in the UK is amongst the best in the world, in the UK you have amongst the best chances of going to work in the morning and coming home in the evening. It is the interpretation of the law and its application in practice that gives health & safety a bad name, there are no laws _banning_ conkers, hanging baskets, ladders, candyfloss on sticks, wearing flip flops at work etc etc etc.

I assure you, if you get frustrated by dealing with health & safety getting interpreted badly, multiply it by about a thousand and you have a week in my life!


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## Landcruiser (1 January 2016)

As one who groans at the mere mention of Health and Safety, your post has given me pause for thought Darbs. Very informative and interesting.
My two penn'th: Not wearing Hi Viz because of perceived uncoolness is ridiculous and childish. And common sense says that being seen sooner rather than later (or too late) has to be a survival advantage. 
And the freedom of choice argument doesn't really hold up - how many people went through windscreens when there was freedom of choice about seatbelt wearing compared to now? I know it's not the same situation, but it's the same principle - there really can't be a valid reason for not giving yourself and your horse a better chance of survival that you would have otherwise.


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## Kat (1 January 2016)

To be honest hi viz is more of a no brainer than seat belts.  There is no disadvantage to wearing hiviz and reflective clothing, there are disadvantages to wearing a seat belt (getting trapped in a fire or water or injuries caused by seat belts such as broken ribs or sternum),  albeit in general those disadvantages are far outweighed by the benefits.


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## Nudibranch (1 January 2016)

minkymoo said:



			Hang on, how on earth can you equate drink driving with not wearing hi viz?! Are you mad?!
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Oh dear...a bit too much festive wine perhaps? I don't believe that is classed as equating the two. Rather pointing out that one formerly acceptable activity was subject to choice. Yes, drink driving is an extreme example; it is an example none the less.

Anyway, I am not mad, thanks...calm down.


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## thatsmygirl (1 January 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			Sensible riders IMO.  Glad most of my livery owners take safety before their  image.















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They look great and that's what I would like to see all the riders in my local lanes wearing


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## thatsmygirl (2 January 2016)

I will not leave the yard without hi viz, the reason being is that, if I ever had an accident I know iv done what I can to protect myself and my horse without thinking " what if I was wearing it" 
Being a driver in our narrow country lanes with over hanging trees iv come across horses hiding under the trees and iv hardly seen them until way up close and on one occasion the sun was beaming down and I could hardly see out the window it was awful but down the road I could just make out some hi viz reflecting so know there was horses there, unfortunately I didn't see the horse further back with nothing on under the trees, I was going slow so didnt hit him but it shoke me up and the rider, he now wears hi viz!! Iv seen plenty of dog walkers the same, black labs nothing on them running the lanes. Stupid owners who just either can't see the problem or to stupid to care.


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## thatsmygirl (2 January 2016)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			TBH, I *think* I am older than you GS.  I have a JoyRiderz hi-viz jacket for winter riding, which was not cheap and a tabard/waistcoat for warmer weather.  I do wear cyclying tee-shirts in summer sometimes but then, so long as I am comfortable, I do not care what I look like.
		
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What's wrong with normal hi viz work wear, you don't even have to buy horse stuff. The normal tabards are £4 and are done up by Velcro so it goes on top my air jacket with no issues.


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