# Rosette stealers !!!!!



## tubby1 (26 July 2015)

Having slight rage tonight. I went to watch a local showing show today and was completely gobsmacked at the number of serious showing folk who were competing. for example there was a novice ridden class ( walk/trot only ) which was won by a child that then asked to leave the ring proceeded to canter to the working hunter ring and jump 70 cm very competently. why do people feel the need to get rosettes in classes that are for new combinations or beginners. Showing at this level is a farce.


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## Tobiano (26 July 2015)

I know what you mean!  I am so glad I don't have a child of that age as I think it is terribly sad when they don't stand a chance at all.  I remember the one and only showing class that my daughter did aged 14 - it was a local family horse class, and her horse was the ONLY one who stood still in the line up (which was interminable) but loads of badly behaved fancy pants showing horses were placed ahead of them.  I blame the pushy parents!!


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## tubby1 (26 July 2015)

It is soul destroying my friends little girl spent ages getting her pony ready ( typical normal first ridden) looked immaculate, pony behaved great and was placed last behind lots of long legged pigtailed serious showers. With naughty poncy types it drives me mad


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## Moomin1 (26 July 2015)

Yep it's shocking.  I also find that a lot of people who should know a lot better what classes they are entering (ie professional producers etc) tend to enter classes which they know they shouldn't be in with particular horses. For instance, at a local show last year, a professional producer entered a horse into the hunter class, and won, and then went straight into the riding horse class with a change of browband from plain to coloured, and won that, under the same judge.  How on earth can a hunter type possibly be a riding horse type also? Farce.


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## tubby1 (26 July 2015)

Totally agree Moomin I feel these shows should be for the ordinary owners to to enjoy / experience showing and it doesn't happen. As you say it's the lies that are told.


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## GemG (26 July 2015)

I believe it's called 'pot hunters'. 

It's a shame actually and can put off some really genuine 'first ponies/novices etc and more.


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## Peregrine Falcon (26 July 2015)

It happens everywhere unfortunately.  My 7yo son has now started "blacklisting" judges too.


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## JLD (26 July 2015)

We did a LR rider class recently, just for fun , my little girl has only ridden a short while so we knew we would come last but we were there so joined in. However it was for up to age 11 and the first 3 left the ring were unclipped from the lead and went straight into the 60 cm jumping cantering round off lead ! Didn't affect us but really felt for the genuine competitors who didn't stand a chance.


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## Jo1987 (26 July 2015)

Yes, at my local show there is a lady who enters and wins every class she can with her lovely cob, who really should be at a much higher level now - she has been doing this for 10+ years! How boring. 
I remember a few years ago as a 14 year old entering the coloured class and coming third behind her and a professional producer on a spotted horse. Both lovely horses of course, but definitely above local show level.  
Put me right off and I haven't entered another showing class since!


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## MargotC (26 July 2015)

I only really competed at local levels as my interests always were elsewhere, but we had a couple of regulars that could be trusted to enter the lower classes below 1m as warmup for the bigger ones and who as such were always guaranteed to win. It never failed. The same horses and riders (who were quite grown I might add) then went on to sweep the bigger classes later in the day as well. How intentional this was I know not, but it was discouraging to know you would find yourself just outside the placings because of it. One woman in particular would do the same in dressage classes.

The irony is of course that we who were younger and still learning used to look up to these riders when in training. They were inspiring to watch... until you repeatedly had your efforts on the big day stomped by their 'warmup routine'.

I must stress this is not a case of me being a bad loser. I am really not competitive at all. But I do think an experienced horse/rider combination should enter classes accordingly. I'd think differently if it was a new horse/rider combination or it was a green horse/experienced rider or vice versa. It is when it is done time and time again that it gets discouraging.


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## tubby1 (26 July 2015)

MargotC I think you hit the nail on the head. My daughter doesn't  expect to win and Isn't a bad loser She justs expects. to compete on a level playing field. We only show for fun and only occaisionally but always seem to come awy with a bad taste in our mouths. Perhaps she should stick to jumping / dressage at least then opinions don't really matter.


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## suffolkmare (26 July 2015)

Such a shame...it sounds like the judges need educating/reminding that when judging a grass-roots local show to look out for "over-qualified" entries and challenge what they've already done/won. As for the same judge placing a horse in both hunter and riding horse class, I hope the club wont ask them back! My club does a "proper" showing show in spring and this year's annual show in September is aimed lower as a "fun" show with adult and junior novices in mind, so hope it works out ok.


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## Woolly Hat n Wellies (26 July 2015)

A lot of local shows near me seem to have rules that combinations entering beginner classes are then not eligible for higher level classes on the same day. I assumed this was common?


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## ester (26 July 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			Yep it's shocking.  I also find that a lot of people who should know a lot better what classes they are entering (ie professional producers etc) tend to enter classes which they know they shouldn't be in with particular horses. For instance, at a local show last year, a professional producer entered a horse into the hunter class, and won, and then went straight into the riding horse class with a change of browband from plain to coloured, and won that, under the same judge.  How on earth can a hunter type possibly be a riding horse type also? Farce.
		
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Did it win the riding horse too? Perhaps they were just trying to get it more ring experience and IME at local shows the hunter class is often a plethora of types! A friend has a Riding horse who would pass as a small hunter too. 

I'd rather have a few more serious showing people about tbh. Frank is definitely a type that is below anything going affiliated at any level but he seems to hold his own after that even at 22 and would give a nicer ride than many, he always gets nice comments. We've experienced some interesting decision at times but just roll eyes and accept that is showing and don't do it too often .


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## MargotC (26 July 2015)

tubby1 said:



			MargotC I think you hit the nail on the head. My daughter doesn't  expect to win and Isn't a bad loser She justs expects. to compete on a level playing field. We only show for fun and only occaisionally but always seem to come awy with a bad taste in our mouths. Perhaps she should stick to jumping / dressage at least then opinions don't really matter.
		
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Yes, I think when you enter and do your best, it's not so much expecting to do better than everyone else as expecting the result list to at least accurately reflect the competition at the end of the day. And the only way to do that is to have an as evenly matched field as possible. Which you'd think is rather the point of having classes in the first place or else you could just pile everyone together..!

That's a nice thing with jumping or dressage tests at least. You can look at how you actually did in terms of poles knocked down or how your movements are scored (provided you have a neutral unbiased dressage judge).

I should add, my first post does not include shows under British rules but we do have some restrictions here as well. I think the fact it was a local venue was what meant you accepted a bigger experience range within smaller classes. Still unfortunate.


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## ester (26 July 2015)

Also I think you can usually tell the level of seriousness from the schedule/spread of the classes/what else is on that weekend. My old RC used to run a showing show over easter- before all the county shows start and it would be heaving with people out for a practice before them. There do seem to be plenty of kids shows/fun shows/novice only shows advertised around here. Including those with classes for teddybears .


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## ChesnutsRoasting (26 July 2015)

Pothunters are in every type of showing. Sad. It's like the twit who gets a first & brags yet was the only one in the class! Some folks will do anything for a rosette by means fair or foul.


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## DragonSlayer (26 July 2015)

At a fair-sized village show last year, the person who won the novice went on to win the open. I didn't know the person had entered the open as we went home (relative borrowed my horse) else I would have lodged a complaint. Sent an email asking for justification to this but never got a reply even though the committee acknowledged receipt. Needless to say, they won't get our support this year.


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## Moomin1 (26 July 2015)

MargotC said:



			That's a nice thing with jumping or dressage tests at least. You can look at how you actually did in terms of poles knocked down or how your movements are scored (provided you have a neutral unbiased dressage judge).

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Mm I'm not convinced that dressage isn't any less subjective tbh.  The varying scores given out despite obvious standard differences is quite shocking.


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## DragonSlayer (26 July 2015)

Woolly Hat n Wellies said:



			A lot of local shows near me seem to have rules that combinations entering beginner classes are then not eligible for higher level classes on the same day. I assumed this was common?
		
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Unfortunately not! More places need to adopt this to make it fair.


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## WelshD (26 July 2015)

JLD said:



			We did a LR rider class recently, just for fun , my little girl has only ridden a short while so we knew we would come last but we were there so joined in. However it was for up to age 11 and the first 3 left the ring were unclipped from the lead and went straight into the 60 cm jumping cantering round off lead ! Didn't affect us but really felt for the genuine competitors who didn't stand a chance.
		
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but if the other competitors were under 11 then they were genuine competitors too! unless stated in the schedule the ability of the rider doesn't come in to it


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## Moomin1 (26 July 2015)

WelshD said:



			but if the other competitors were under 11 then they were genuine competitors too! unless stated in the schedule the ability of the rider doesn't come in to it
		
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To be fair, a kid who can jump a 60cm course off the lead is certainly not within the realms of a lead rein class.  Lead rein classes are designed for those who aren't ready to come off the lead rein.


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## MargotC (26 July 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			Mm I'm not convinced that dressage isn't any less subjective tbh.  The varying scores given out despite obvious standard differences is quite shocking.
		
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All too true. Type preference often seems to come into it.


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## nervous nelly (26 July 2015)

I think it depends I don't agree with doing it all the time but we have been doing 80 and 90 classes this season but after a disaster last weekend we took Tom back to 70 to make sure he hadn't lost his confidence the week before, he won the 70cm with the only clear I'm sure there were plenty of people today who said we were pot hunting but sometimes there is a genuine reason for jumping a smaller class than normal x


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## ester (26 July 2015)

duplicated


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## ester (26 July 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			To be fair, a kid who can jump a 60cm course off the lead is certainly not within the realms of a lead rein class.  Lead rein classes are designed for those who aren't ready to come off the lead rein.
		
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Well not technically, it is designed to show off ponies suitable for riders on the lead rein... ie small ones! I imagine a lot of lead rein riders are very capable of going round a course of jumps unaided though 11 is quite old, I think usually it is 8.


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## BroadfordQueen (26 July 2015)

On the other hand, I took my coloured horse into our first ever showing class last year, just at a local RC show. Neither of us had done a jot of showing as we are "eventers". Didn't have a clue what I was doing but with the help of a few showing bods from my yard we were both immaculately turned out, and we did a decent show and won. Que lots of snide comments when we came out of the ring, "she obviously usually competes at county level and is just pot hunting". we had to start somewhere, But to be honest it was my first and last foray into showing, the attitude of the other competitors totally put me off!


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## Moomin1 (26 July 2015)

BroadfordQueen said:



			On the other hand, I took my coloured horse into our first ever showing class last year, just at a local RC show. Neither of us had done a jot of showing as we are "eventers". Didn't have a clue what I was doing but with the help of a few showing bods from my yard we were both immaculately turned out, and we did a decent show and won. Que lots of snide comments when we came out of the ring, "she obviously usually competes at county level and is just pot hunting". we had to start somewhere, But to be honest it was my first and last foray into showing, the attitude of the other competitors totally put me off!
		
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That's fair enough though! I don't think anyone is saying anyone who wins at local level should automatically compete county level. I think the gripe is more those who continuously pot hunt at lower levels when they clearly are more than capable of realising what level they should be at.


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## WelshD (26 July 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			To be fair, a kid who can jump a 60cm course off the lead is certainly not within the realms of a lead rein class.  Lead rein classes are designed for those who aren't ready to come off the lead rein.
		
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A lead rein class in the vast majority of cases is designed to find the most suitable lead rein pony

You get the odd class at local level that is intended to be a beginners class but beyond that its about the pony not the rider. 

If shows don't intend capable riders to take part then they need to make this clear in the schedule and if people are unhappy they need to ask the show for clarification in future or if they think they are in the right lodge a complaint

Most of the complaints on social media about showing are because there is a misunderstanding about what the class is all about, gypsy cobs and welsh cobs shown in show cob classes for example


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## JLD (26 July 2015)

Not sure if quoted or not - but re the lead rein class - it was a lead rein rider class , as I said in my first post not lead rein pony - it was judging the rider not the pony. There was also very novice rider, and novice rider for those just off . The lead rein pony classes were separate.


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## orionstar (26 July 2015)

Showing has to be the one and only area of equestrianism I have tried at and did reasonably well at, In my mind this is county level reserve in hand champion, several 1st's in hand and ridden, then come across the judges who dont give a fig whats in front of them, but in their world they are semi professional or professional. The horses could attempt to dance on the judges head, be completely unable to manage a trot up due to their size, kick at least three other horses in the ring and rear repeatedly through out the whole show, but still get a red rosette. I once seen a Coloured best coloured and markings go to a warmblood with a splash of of white on one side of it's neck in a line up that was bidding for a BSPA place, so I dont do it any more.


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## Moomin1 (26 July 2015)

orionstar said:



			Showing has to be the one and only area of equestrianism I have tried at and did reasonably well at, In my mind this is county level reserve in hand champion, several 1st's in hand and ridden, then come across the judges who dont give a fig whats in front of them, but in their world they are semi professional or professional. The horses could attempt to dance on the judges head, be completely unable to manage a trot up due to their size, kick at least three other horses in the ring and rear repeatedly through out the whole show, but still get a red rosette. I once seen a Coloured best coloured and markings go to a warmblood with a splash of of white on one side of it's neck in a line up that was bidding for a BSPA place, so I dont do it any more.
		
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That would be classed as a coloured horse though.


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## Moomin1 (26 July 2015)

JLD said:



			Not sure if quoted or not - but re the lead rein class - it was a lead rein rider class , as I said in my first post not lead rein pony - it was judging the rider not the pony. There was also very novice rider, and novice rider for those just off . The lead rein pony classes were separate.
		
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Yes this is what I was meaning too - most of the classes in my local shows in the past have been aimed at lead rein riders.


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## Nativelover (26 July 2015)

I have experienced this many a time, when getting back into competing as an adult a few years ago, I thought it best to go local and amateur level so I could hopefully climb the ranks and end up county level and the dream of HOYS etc. well imagine how disheartening it is to do all the prep, entry fees etc to see a producer turn up. Not with a novice horse, but a seasoned HOYS regular. Of course they won, but what's the point in that????? This was at trailblazers aimed at grass roots level, now that was pot hunting!


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## Toby_Zaphod (27 July 2015)

At local level the show secretary needs to grow a set & bar some competitors & horses from certain classes when they are know they are no longer novices or should be competing at a different level. It's unlikely that this will happen though. These isues have been around for years & will continue to be there in the future.


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## swilliam (27 July 2015)

I'm chair of our local roding club. Anyone who competes on the lead rein is not allowed to compete off it, except in the walk and trot class. We try to make sure that that class is restricted to novice combinations, but sometimes have to trust that people are telling the truth. We have asked riders to leave the ring in the past, when we know they are not.


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## OldNag (27 July 2015)

A few weeks back at a show we were at, a girl did the 70cm open, came out off that ring and went straight into the 50cm novice....

I have heard her referred  to as a pot hunter before and can see how she got her rep.
 She will do three or four different heights and it isn't  fair on the kids. doing the 45 to have her in that when she does 75 or more at the same event.

We have a local show near us that is fairly early on in the season. A few years back I took daughter in the lead rein and found we were in there against a lot of county standard entries....

At same show other daughter did first ridden on her patently safe trust- with-your-kids'-lives pony. She isn't  a show animal so I didn't  expect her to be placed but I was annoyed to find ponies being placed who had bucked and misbehaved in the ring. Not my idea of a first ridden!


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## Red-1 (27 July 2015)

I don't blame the riders, I blame the rules.

Our local show also has a rule about if you enter the beginner classes you can't do the bigger ones on the same horse. 

With eventing, SJ and Dressage there are rules as to what the horse/rider has won dictating what they can do. 

Maybe the organisers could make similar rules?

I know that with dressage in particular, we don't compete that often but are successful at a range of levels. If I am busy in the afternoon we do an early class, and if we are busy early on we do a later class. We are eligible and capable of either end of the day. To me it is about socially attending, the art of producing my horse to be ready at the right time etc. 

If the rules for showing, eg. if entering the lead rein rider then not able to do jumping, or bigger showing, then that would satisfy most people.

As for the riding horse/hunter question, I have competed a borrowed horse which did both at a reasonably large local show. My horse had been cast in the stable the night before, and the owner of the horse said I could borrow hers and kindly said I could do a non jumping class, and she did working hunter. That was because I was so disappointed that although my horse was OK, he had knocked his leg, so despite all my prep we could not have otherwise gone.

The horse won both, as he had a leg at each corner, was correctly produced, and well ridden. There were flashier horses there, and ones more true to type, but many were tense, ridden without forward flow etc. We were not pot hunting any more than any competitor, just two hard working people, out for a social day and to do as well as we could. 

Funnily enough the "pot" I won was sponsored by the parent of one of the other competitors, they had named the trophy after themselves, it was HUGE. They had bought a fancy pants horse, had all the gear, and were looking forward to winning the big, self named trophy. I did not resent them or their fancy pants horse, complete with trainer as I climbed aboard my borrowed horse in my standard pony club attire, any more than I resent competing against the Whitakers in lower SJ, or Oliver Townend at Novice eventing. If they are qualified to compete they add to the competition. 

I have been "pipped" eventing more times than I care to remember by household names. I love it, hey, if you have to be beaten you may as well be beaten by a pro. 

Maybe if people don't like the rules they could run a show for locals, with strict rules? Or suggest rules to local show committee? Sponsor a class?


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## ester (27 July 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			That would be classed as a coloured horse though.
		
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 yes but the class she is talking about - coloured and markings is supposed to be judged mostly on quality of markings!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (27 July 2015)

Red-1 said:



			I don't blame the riders, I blame the rules.
		
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This ^

As a 'retired' producer, when we were competing on the national circuit, we used to still go out and support our local shows.
However, as they were so local, I would usually drag out a complete novice or newly broken horse/pony and let my daughter have fun with her PC pony (which was by no means county level.
Well turned out as we had the gear and daughter rode nicely, tho we still got brick-bats from some as 'pot hunters'.

The most laughable was when I put daughter on a newly re-habbed off the track TB in the riding horse class. She was tiny on there (he was only 15.2 but she was just under 5ft at 15) and they duly won to my total amazement!
However, they were immacualtely turned out & he DID go well, tho I was biting my nails in case he got too excited in the go-round.

Every horse/pony has to start somewhere, however its usually better for them to have short trips out to start with.
Doing a local show a producer can find themselves with big egg on their faces tho, as judges can be much harder 'because' ...

Taking wembley ponies tho was always a no-no, unless we went to let their hair down and compete in SJ classes.


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## jrp204 (27 July 2015)

DragonSlayer said:



			At a fair-sized village show last year, the person who won the novice went on to win the open. I didn't know the person had entered the open as we went home (relative borrowed my horse) else I would have lodged a complaint. Sent an email asking for justification to this but never got a reply even though the committee acknowledged receipt. Needless to say, they won't get our support this year.[/QUOTE

I can't see how that combination have done anything wrong, unless the open class was before the novice. My daughter entered the novice ridden hunter class as it was the horses first go at it, he won so we entered him for the open too as we wanted him to get more experience, he didn't win it but was placed, not sure what you could complain about as he was eligible for both classes.
		
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## elsielouise (27 July 2015)

As a parent of a six year old boy who has no real interest in showing (fortunately) but who every now and then wants to enter a class when we are at a show, I now find myself discouraging him. TBF I am rubbish at turn out and haven't a hope of preparing his pony to the required standard and she is too big anyway.

However, what has worked for us is Pony Club. We have got to know other members and some of the shows, particularly where it's members only are brilliantly run with children really being expected to ride 'at their level'. 

Children are resilient to a degree but I believe there is no point in setting them up for disappointment. Just find a venue/club where young children can take part at an appropriate level and enjoy the experience.


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## fatpiggy (27 July 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			Mm I'm not convinced that dressage isn't any less subjective tbh.  The varying scores given out despite obvious standard differences is quite shocking.
		
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Dressage is just as bad!  I entered a local riding club dressage show, just for fun because my horse was too loopy in the ring, but I liked to do a broad range of things with her, and learning the test etc was good for us both.  It was prelim 10 as I remember - the woman who one it warmed up outside the ring by doing 3 time changes in canter!  I've no problem with people wanting ring experience, but do it hors concours in that case.  The other competitors told me this particular woman was well known for it.  Most of the other riders were just kids on their very ordinary ponies.


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## Dannylandrover (27 July 2015)

As another retired show pony producer, i used to feel aggrieved when competing with a total novice against folks i knew were county and above level.  And when i started helping at our local show we put in the rules "the LR is judged on pony and rider suitability not turnout" and "if a pony/rider combination was ridden on LR in a class they stayed on LR whilst on showground".  Or you state they are not to have won a rosette if its a beginners class.  
I got moaned at when i won a novice WH class at a national show once because horse was 15 years old, but what they did not know is i had had to restart that horse after a 3 year break when he was turned away and left in a field, neither of us were very confident and needed a novice class.                                                                    
We all have to start somewhere and need to encourage novices not scare them away.


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## mastermax (27 July 2015)

I can see this from both points of view but here is my case for opinion. I aquired a very pretty coloured horse quite a few months ago that had never been showing and had always evented. He had been due to be put down for reasons I wont go into but suffice to say I now have a beautiful, horse of lifetime that is fit, well and sound after a lot of blood, sweat, tears and expense.
We decided to take him in hand showing to our local show as due to my illness (I have Lupus, RA and kidney disease) I didnt feel ready to ride him in the class. He won the coloured, got placed in the other two but went on to win in hand champion.  We were delighted.
A couple of weeks later we took him to the same venue but for an affliated BSPA show ad again he won in hand champion beating a top producer.
Yesterday he went back to the show and he won in hand champion and a friend of mine (young girl just left school so not a producer) rode him in two ridden classes, he won both of those and went on to win ridden champion. Very few people turned up to the show due to the previous days weather so there wasnt a huge amount of competition.
My dilema now is when I feel ready to ride him in a show and his canter is more balanced do I not go back to that lovely, small show for fear people will think I am a pot hunter or do I overface myself at bigger shows that the organisers arnt aware of my disabilities? Basically do I not go where I'm comfortable just because my pretty horse has won there before. I dont want to take him back as would hate people to think I was a rosette stealer.


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## DragonSlayer (27 July 2015)

jrp204 said:





DragonSlayer said:



			At a fair-sized village show last year, the person who won the novice went on to win the open. I didn't know the person had entered the open as we went home (relative borrowed my horse) else I would have lodged a complaint. Sent an email asking for justification to this but never got a reply even though the committee acknowledged receipt. Needless to say, they won't get our support this year.[/QUOTE

I can't see how that combination have done anything wrong, unless the open class was before the novice. My daughter entered the novice ridden hunter class as it was the horses first go at it, he won so we entered him for the open too as we wanted him to get more experience, he didn't win it but was placed, not sure what you could complain about as he was eligible for both classes.
		
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Surely it's only fair that if you enter the novice and are planning on every other class afterwards you aren't a true novice? Not fair on those who ARE true novices, is it? Like some shows and has been mentioned, a restriction makes it more like a level playing field.

You aren't ever going to please everybody, that's for sure, but if the rules are tightened, maybe it would make it a little more encouraging for those setting out to be competing against those who are more likely at your level.
		
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## conniegirl (27 July 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			To be fair, a kid who can jump a 60cm course off the lead is certainly not within the realms of a lead rein class.  Lead rein classes are designed for those who aren't ready to come off the lead rein.
		
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No they are not! Lead rein classes are there to find the best leadrein pony. Provided the rider meets the age criteria then it doesn't matter how well they ride.

I think a lot of complaints re showing stem from a total ignorance of what the criteria for the class actually is along with the rules of the class


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## ester (27 July 2015)

It depends, novice rider or novice horse .


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## conniegirl (27 July 2015)

DragonSlayer said:





jrp204 said:



			Surely it's only fair that if you enter the novice and are planning on every other class afterwards you aren't a true novice? Not fair on those who ARE true novices, is it? Like some shows and has been mentioned, a restriction makes it more like a level playing field.

You aren't ever going to please everybody, that's for sure, but if the rules are tightened, maybe it would make it a little more encouraging for those setting out to be competing against those who are more likely at your level.
		
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This shows a total ignorance of the rules. A novice is a novice until the 1st of January after they denovice themselves. Each society has a different criteria for denovicing. Most normal are around winning an open class or a set amount of prize money.
My horse is next year would be eligible for novice classes still as whilst we have done open classes and novice classes he has yet to win an open class (we have a severe case of 2nd itis!)
Should he win an open class this season then he will still be eligible for novice classes for the rest of this season but not for shows after the first of jan 2016.
Novice classes go on the horse not the rider!
		
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## eggs (27 July 2015)

This is the trouble with unaffiliated showing / dressage/ jumping/ ht / etc  anyone can enter unless the rules for that show are explicit as to what you can and cannot enter.  

Unfortunately there will always be pot hunters but unless they are breaking the rules of that particular show there isn't anything you can do about it.

In the days when I used to go to RC unaffiliated shows there was usually something along the lines of 'if you enter the novice 70cm jumping that combination of horse and rider cannot enter the 1 m open'


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## honetpot (27 July 2015)

For local showing it think its a lot easier to make rules to edge out the pot hunters. One of our riding clubs does entries on a laptop, but I am sure it would be possible to do it on paper. For LR, no child can compete off lead rein unless it first year FR, or judge the class as novice and open, you can have some very tall children that look older than they actually are who can be novice unconfident riders.
  As to adults, the combination can not enter the class once they have won it once, at local level this should be pretty easy to police unless you get someone from outside the area, but  simple question on the entry form, 'has this combination won in any affiliated competition?' perhaps would make them think.
  When my children were young we used to do showing as a bit of fun, we used to go to local shows and sometimes do the bigger shows. We tried never to do the same shows every year, there was a particular show we would only go once with a new pony as it was very novice, my children we taught that it better to be placed against good competition than win where there is none. We were never going to do well top level, and there are a lot of people who have spent a lot of money and want to have a crack at winning, so they go down a level which I can understand for children but not adults. Its supposed to be a competition.
 Affiliated showing is a whole different matter, as soon as they make a rule their is someone whose 'job' it is too twist it to make it fit for them and the use of databases for results should be used more to watch competitor and judging patterns. The trouble is they do not treat like a proper sport.


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## Nancykitt (27 July 2015)

Something I can't understand is why the more successful riders  - of the type described in many of the responses here - get so much pleasure from beating local 'have a go' riders. I am not competitive myself but if I was winning every class at local level I can't think why I'd want to carry on doing that; surely it feels better to get placed 6th in a big class in a county show than 1st in a little local show against inexperienced riders (and horses)? Where's the pleasure in thrashing a newcomer? Of course they may be 'eligible' to enter these classes, but I can't personally understand what pleasure is derived from wiping out the competition when you really should be doing something more challenging.

My brief encounters with dressage have led me to believe that this is no better. Our local RC used to have a Beginners' Prelim class designed to encourage newcomers - they also had a normal Prelim class, then Novice and so on. I decided to enter the Beginners class and was very, very nervous but gave it my all...the class was won by a very experienced rider complete with spurs and seasoned dressage horse. Other competitors included people who had previously competed at Elementary level. I got absolutely slaughtered and was even more devastated when my test sheet included the comment 'Lovely horse, shame about the riding'! The RC was constantly complaining that not enough people were 'getting into dressage' - quite frankly, if that's the way absolute newcomers are treated, I'm not surprised!
And that's the thing - the local shows need competitors in order to survive. I wouldn't go to my local show because I know that the competitors include instructors and seasoned showing people on the County circuit. How many other people are staying away because of pot-hunters?


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## conniegirl (27 July 2015)

Nancykitt said:



			Something I can't understand is why the more successful riders  - of the type described in many of the responses here - get so much pleasure from beating local 'have a go' riders. I am not competitive myself but if I was winning every class at local level I can't think why I'd want to carry on doing that; surely it feels better to get placed 6th in a big class in a county show than 1st in a little local show against inexperienced riders (and horses)? Where's the pleasure in thrashing a newcomer? Of course they may be 'eligible' to enter these classes, but I can't personally understand what pleasure is derived from wiping out the competition when you really should be doing something more challenging.

My brief encounters with dressage have led me to believe that this is no better. Our local RC used to have a Beginners' Prelim class designed to encourage newcomers - they also had a normal Prelim class, then Novice and so on. I decided to enter the Beginners class and was very, very nervous but gave it my all...the class was won by a very experienced rider complete with spurs and seasoned dressage horse. Other competitors included people who had previously competed at Elementary level. I got absolutely slaughtered and was even more devastated when my test sheet included the comment 'Lovely horse, shame about the riding'! The RC was constantly complaining that not enough people were 'getting into dressage' - quite frankly, if that's the way absolute newcomers are treated, I'm not surprised!
And that's the thing - the local shows need competitors in order to survive. I wouldn't go to my local show because I know that the competitors include instructors and seasoned showing people on the County circuit. How many other people are staying away because of pot-hunters?
		
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It's a shame you were treated like that at dressage but re showing. I was at a show at the weekend stewarding. The show has a whole ring for begginers and novices and if u enter a class in that ring you can't do any classes in any other showing ring on that day. The vast majority of those classes were empty. At most the classes had one or 2 in it. The organiser is not running them next year due to lack of entries.
I'm judging at her novice show next weekend and again if entries don't pick up from the last one she won't be running anymore!
So use them or lose them! Show organisers can't keep running classes for one or 2 entries!


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## Clannad48 (27 July 2015)

Ok so here is the view from what someone who had her daughter called, to her face, a 'pot-hunter'  Yes we have what some people could consider a 'flashy warmblood' (here read dumbblood) who after being on box rest for many months due to a multple fracture to the splint bone, was entered for a local dressage comp.  

Now we were only in the warm up arena when somebody decided that it was appropriate for them to rant at my daughter over her being a 'pot-hunter' and should be ashamed of herself.  Now me, being angry mum, waded in and pointed out that if she had bothered to check, would have seen that my daughter was entered 'HC' and therefore was not pot-hunting at all.  

We had been on the receiving end of other real 'pot-hunters' over the years and have always entered, what for us could be considered inappropriate classes as 'HC'.  

Now she competes in the friendly, welcoming world of Endurance. Such a different atmosphere.


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## Pearlsasinger (27 July 2015)

tubby1 said:



			It is soul destroying my friends little girl spent ages getting her pony ready ( typical normal first ridden) looked immaculate, pony behaved great and was placed last behind lots of long legged pigtailed serious showers. With naughty poncy types it drives me mad
		
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It is very annoying but actually I think the show organisers are to blame.  I was judging at a RC show earlier in the year with a similar walk & trot class.  Entrants were not allowed to enter other ridden classes, except best condition.   The judge could also have exercised some discretion about who they gave the rosettes too.  It is always possible to ask the riders questions about who got pony ready for the show, where the child normally rides etc and in a W&T class give places to the genuine beginners.


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## sultana (27 July 2015)

We have a local family who are branded as 'pot hunters' and IMO deserve the title - not only in showing but also in dressage. They have some nice horses and have been part of riding clubs for years - having had years of lessons ect. Nice riders, (as in ability not personality!!) They never compete above pre lim level dressage and mainly win. I often wonder to myself what they actually feel or get out of it? The same tests over and over and over again for years - how boring! But each to their own and if the hundreds of rosettes make them happy then so be it - but I feel sorry for the beginners who feel bad for not doing so well against them.....


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## HBB (27 July 2015)

OldNag said:



			A few weeks back at a show we were at, a girl did the 70cm open, came out off that ring and went straight into the 50cm novice....

I have heard her referred  to as a pot hunter before and can see how she got her rep.
 She will do three or four different heights and it isn't  fair on the kids. doing the 45 to have her in that when she does 75 or more at the same event.
		
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We have one like that here too, win's 50cm, 60cm, 70cm and 80cm classes at most shows she attends. It's quite vulgar but that's unaffiliated classes for you and weak management. In my day, the show organisers would have told you to move up a level.


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## ester (27 July 2015)

I have to mention that being a show organiser is a nightmare, and keeping everyone happy is impossible. Essentially they are running shows to make money and classes/rings that are not well supported will not continue to be run as conniegirl says. You are also reliant on your judge to make sensible decisions and your competitors to read the schedule. I was at a show last week where the front of the schedule said for riders/handlers over 16 years of age - there were several that were not, including it was discovered at the end of the day champion in the workers ring. Too late to do anything then . I also had a kid on a plaited welsh Ax arab in the M+M workers :rolleyes3:. I think most had a nice time though .


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## hollyandivy123 (27 July 2015)

from my perspective the best thing about pot hunters is when you beat them, especially on a Therwell type horse/pony, trust me that is so much fun i have had someone complain to British Dressage about me as i had beaten them in a prelim how could their horse with this breeding blah blah................etc etc be marked lower than mine!!!

The judges do have to hold some responsibility, and mark to the class the are judging, the worse for me is "family horse/pony", i have judged these they are a nightmare, if you have loads on pinging ponies which can not be ridden by everyone.


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2015)

sultana said:



			We have a local family who are branded as 'pot hunters' and IMO deserve the title - not only in showing but also in dressage. They have some nice horses and have been part of riding clubs for years - having had years of lessons ect. Nice riders, (as in ability not personality!!) They never compete above pre lim level dressage and mainly win. I often wonder to myself what they actually feel or get out of it? The same tests over and over and over again for years - how boring! But each to their own and if the hundreds of rosettes make them happy then so be it - but I feel sorry for the beginners who feel bad for not doing so well against them.....
		
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Why should compete at a higher level they if they don't want to .
In my book if a class is 'open ' it's open if you don't like that don't go .
What they get out of it is up to them .
I just don't understand your attitude to this all at all but I know it exists because it is what stops me going to shows for fun .


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## minesadouble (27 July 2015)

I do think this thread shows a lot of lack of understanding of showing to be honest. We show to a high level ourselves and also use local shows as experience for novices. I also run three 'big' local, unaffiliated shows per year.

With regard to the kiddies we have a ring running most of the day which is dedicated to under tens, all classes are L/R or F/R  or a combination of the two. If a child competes in that ring they are then not permitted to ride in any open ridden classes at that show.

With regard to 'pot hunters' I hear this a lot. We have quite a few local competitors who come to our shows and are always highly placed. I've heard people saying they shouldn't ride at our shows as they compete at County level. However a pony/horse which comes to our show and looks real quality still may not be good enough to stand up in top class company, they  may look stunning in the company they have at an unaffiliated show but stick them in a HOYS qualifier and they would be propping up the bottom of the line. Those who compete at our shows but also compete at County level may think themselves lucky to return from a County Show with a 5th place rosette. 
We have also had a section B at our show who had been placed at the Royal International. However said pony had subsequently nashed off with his jockey and given her a massive fright - they came to our show in the hope of a confidence builder. I have no objection at all to such riders competing at our shows.

What looks like a top class animal to a 'layman' is often totally outclassed at bigger shows. Just because someone has turned their horse out well, makes the best of the animal they have and has all the 'right' gear should not preclude them from competing at local level.


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## ester (27 July 2015)

Oh and it is hard enough work without policing who is doing what!


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## conniegirl (27 July 2015)

honetpot said:



			As to adults, the combination can not enter the class once they have won it once, at local level this should be pretty easy to police unless you get someone from outside the area, but  simple question on the entry form, 'has this combination won in any affiliated competition?' perhaps would make them think.
		
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hmm ok then what happens if like one lady I know she took her young horse out to its first ever show and her first ever show. she was the only one in the novice class so won by default. by your rules her and her 4yr old baby would then no longer be able to do the novice classes ever again. Thats like saying you did the prelim 1 test, it was a total disaster and you scored 30% but because you are the only entry you got a red rosette and now you must do the novice dressage tests!

Oh and for RC clubs that run a points system for end of year trophies the novice class would be a nightmare!

For those who say good competitors shouldnt be allowed at local level
Yes I take my young horse out to local shows, he is a very nice young horse who also does the affiliated novice classes and affiliated opens, we have even done a couple of HOYS qualifiers and I've been showing for over 20 years. But you know what, he needs the time in the ring, we often have an issue to work through that can only be worked through at a show even if you cant see it whilst watching from the ring side, it could be that he has decided that galloping in a group is a good excuse to lose the plot or that judges with hats on are terrifying or my last one was that every horse on the show ground was his best friend and he couldn't possibly ever go away from them even if he had never met them before (doesn't do it at home its a security thing so the more I get him out the better he gets).
there is also the fact that a lot of people cant afford the £50+ per class entry fees at a lot of county shows.


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## fatpiggy (27 July 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Why should compete at a higher level they if they don't want to .
In my book if a class is 'open ' it's open if you don't like that don't go .
What they get out of it is up to them .
I just don't understand your attitude to this all at all but I know it exists because it is what stops me going to shows for fun .
		
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You could argue, why keep climbing the same mountain, year on year?  Not everyone wants to be particularly competitive or ambitious, I understand that, and may be happy working at a particular level, but in that case, why not say, right I've done that on X, lets have a go at something new. Or go HC if you just want to take part "for the fun of it".  Most small shows are more interested in maximizing their income I think and aren't going to refuse the entry money for HC!


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## pennyturner (27 July 2015)

It works both ways.  We ruffled a few feathers a couple of years ago by turning up at a local show with 3 of our hairy scruffies (including Buster the one-balled stallion, who was a saint throughout).  We fancied doing a few gymkhana games, and wondered how they'd get on.  

Turns out our ponies quite enjoy games.
When we came first, second and third, the show-pony types gave us some very dirty looks.


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## conniegirl (27 July 2015)

fatpiggy said:



			You could argue, why keep climbing the same mountain, year on year?  Not everyone wants to be particularly competitive or ambitious, I understand that, and may be happy working at a particular level, but in that case, why not say, right I've done that on X, lets have a go at something new. Or go HC if you just want to take part "for the fun of it".  Most small shows are more interested in maximizing their income I think and aren't going to refuse the entry money for HC!
		
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Why should they have to go HC? they pay the same money as everyone else and sometimes people are comfortable doing what they are doing and enjoy it. sometimes they dont want to try something new, they may not jump, they may not want to go fast (games) they may not feel comfortable going any higher and why should they have to?
Personaly I've climbed snowdon 5 times in the last year, why? because I enjoy the walk. not because its a challenge or difficult but because I can have a lovely walk, a natter with friends and enjoy the view from the top. so tell me why should I go climb some other mountain?


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2015)

conniegirl said:



			Why should they have to go HC? they pay the same money as everyone else and sometimes people are comfortable doing what they are doing and enjoy it. sometimes they dont want to try something new, they may not jump, they may not want to go fast (games) they may not feel comfortable going any higher and why should they have to?
Personaly I've climbed snowdon 5 times in the last year, why? because I enjoy the walk. not because its a challenge or difficult but because I can have a lovely walk, a natter with friends and enjoy the view from the top. so tell me why should I go climb some other mountain?
		
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I think that puts it very nicely .


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## pip6 (27 July 2015)

Whilst endurance has plenty of issues at FEI level (& let's be honest here, there is no horse 'sport' including showing, SJ etc that does not have cruelty issues - no defence, but let's spread the problems as they exist everywhere), at affiliated level novice & open, where you enter graded rides against the clock and course, there are very few problems. It is immensely friendly, as you are not competing against the other riders but the set parameters and the course, so say if everyone finished well enough to get a grade 1, they would indeed all get a grade one. It takes a lot of the nastiness I see at shows out of the day and everyone genuinely supports each other. If you have qualified to upgade, you can ride at a lower level HC. So say I ride my advanced horse, and I'm advanced (I am), I can enter a novice class HC and none of the novice combinations loose out. Lower combinations are not allowed to enter a higher level until they have qualified for it. Also if you never want to increase the distance you ride, you don't have to. Even the minimum distance of 30km has an advanced class, indeed all distances up to 50km cater for all 3 levels, to ride further you need to move up the grades. This is done to ensure combinations have enough experience to cope with the increasing distances.

I used to go around local shows with a pony SJ. You get as many pot hunters in there depriving youngsters trying their best from what they may achieve. I've also witnessed terrible parents threatening to sell a childs loved but very expensively ready schooled bought to win pony because she came second in a class not first. It's not all kids chasing rosettes, I find many adults are worse. There should be a set of novice sj classes where they can't enter the intermediate or open classes. If they want experience, use the clear round. Maybe they could do the same at dressage shows, have a 'clear round' with a choice of 2 tests (one harder than other), and you enter in turn to be judged. No placings or prizes, just a judges opinion on how you are doing. 

When I was SJ I went to a show at Newbury, the big showground. I'd not done any classes on the pony, but knew what she could do from home work. We entered a 2'3" novice (at 13.2 she was much smaller than my arabs so took getting used to) and the 2'9" intermediate. The latter was running hours late as they took so many entries on the day and didn't limit them, so we only ended up doing the 2'3. There were few clears due to some spooky fillers, and we went near the end. Pony was only the fourth clear, so we would have be certain on a place, & I'd seen nothing that would match her speed (wizzy welsh c). I opted not to do the jump off, as I felt it was unfair on the other entrants. They deserved the prizes, I already knew what the pony could do. I explained this to the ring steward, and they were gobsmacked. I still think I did the right thing. Pony ended up winning the unaff warm up class at the local aff show regularly (3'3" so big enough for a little pony ridden by an adult), which I thought was fair game as their horses could jump bigger than her, so she was having to work hard to win. We practised at home in a field with two barrels and two poles, nothing else. They used to try and intimidate us (riding much larger horses) in the warm up, but she was so good nothing got to her.


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## ester (27 July 2015)

I think that is not that different to other affiliated disciplines where there is a record so everyone knows where they should be .


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## sultana (27 July 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Why should compete at a higher level they if they don't want to .
In my book if a class is 'open ' it's open if you don't like that don't go .
What they get out of it is up to them .
I just don't understand your attitude to this all at all but I know it exists because it is what stops me going to shows for fun .
		
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As I said in my post - 'each to their own.' And - if the rosettes make them happy so be it' I don't have an 'attitude' just voicing my opinion and wondering why they don't want to progress further - but its up to them - they are vile people anyway|!!! Ha Ha!!


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## WelshD (27 July 2015)

Sometimes I think local show judges do not always do the right thing. an example would be someone who put a hairy cob in a show cob class, there is one 'real' show cob so the hairy comes second because its the best presented of the rest. that person then thinks they are the best thing since sliced bread, go to a 'step up' show such as Equifest, fail miserably and then complain forever more about the injustice of showing. the judge in the first class should have said something to them or withheld the qualification but I guess that is not in the spirit of a local show and its a case of you're damned if you do damned if you don't and the competitor should really have done their homework - its not like the information isn't easily accessible - there is no mystery to showing at local levels really

people seem desperate to shoehorn their mount in to a 'type' when in fact its not got a niche - how many times do we see on here 'is it a riding horse or hunter?' ummmm its neither

Misunderstandings seem order of the day - no your childs pony is not a 'childrens riding pony' just because the child rides it, no your pony isn't a working hunter pony because they have done six seasons hunting, no your pony isn't a show hunter pony because its too fat for show pony classes and cannot jump

As for good ponies at local shows, why shouldn't they have some fun too? some of these kids spend August practically living in a horsebox, a local show may be them meeting with friends for some unpressurised fun. There are two HOYS ponies that feature regularly at our local show, they are the ones to beat (and they don't always win) and NOT the ones to hate


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2015)

pip6 said:



			Whilst endurance has plenty of issues at FEI level (& let's be honest here, there is no horse 'sport' including showing, SJ etc that does not have cruelty issues - no defence, but let's spread the problems as they exist everywhere), at affiliated level novice & open, where you enter graded rides against the clock and course, there are very few problems. It is immensely friendly, as you are not competing against the other riders but the set parameters and the course, so say if everyone finished well enough to get a grade 1, they would indeed all get one. It takes a lot of the nastiness I see at shows out of the day and everyone genuinely supports each other. If you have qualified to upgade, you can ride at a lower level HC. So say I ride my advanced horse, and I'm advanced (I am), I can enter a novice class HC and none of the novice combinations loose out. Lower combinations are not allowed to enter a higher level until they have qualified for it.

I used to go around local shows with a pony SJ. You get as many pot hunters in there depriving youngsters trying their best from what they may achieve. I've also witnessed terrible parents threatening to sell a childs loved but very expensively ready schooled bought to win pony because she came second in a class not first. It's not all kids chasing rosettes, I find many adults are worse. There should be a set of novice sj classes where they can't enter the intermediate or open classes. If they want experience, use the clear round. Maybe they could do the same at dressage shows, have a 'clear round' with a choice of 2 tests (one harder than other), and you enter in turn to be judged. No placings or prizes, just a judges opinion on how you are doing. 

When I was SJ I went to a show at Newbury, the big showground. I'd not done any classes on the pony, but knew what she could do from home work. We entered a 2'3" novice (at 13.2 she was much smaller than my arabs so took getting used to) and the 2'9" intermediate. The latter was running hours late as they took so many entries on the day and didn't limit them, so we only ended up doing the 2'3. There were few clears due to some spooky fillers, and we went near the end. Pony was only the fourth clear, so we would have be certain on a place, & I'd seen nothing that would match her speed (wizzy welsh c). I opted not to do the jump off, as I felt it was unfair on the other entrants. They deserved the prizes, I already knew what the pony could do. I explained this to the ring steward, and they were gobsmacked. I still think I did the right thing. Pony ended up winning the unaff warm up class at the local aff show regularly (3'3" so big enough for a little pony ridden by an adult), which I thought was fair game as their horses could jump bigger than her, so she was having to work hard to win. We practised at home in a field with two barrels and two poles, nothing else. They used to try and intimidate us (riding much larger horses) in the warm up, but she was so good nothing got to her.
		
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I can't see why anyone qualified to be in a class would deprive anyone from doing their best .
Not riding your best is down to you no one else if winning is the reason the ride your best and if you think you can't win you don't ride your best that down to a lack in you and isn't it supposed to be fun surely a day out with your horse is enjoyable if the horse has gone well you have had a laugh seen people watched horses etc etc.
Why should people at the unaffiliated level not enjoy competition at a level they are happy at ?
It's not up to anyone else to judge their motives .
If your horse has gone well you did whatever you where doing in a harmonious and happy way and it the best performance you could turn in you have not lost because another horse got the frilly to take home .
Your performance remains the same win or lose .


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## The Fuzzy Furry (27 July 2015)

minesadouble said:



			I do think this thread shows a lot of lack of understanding of showing to be honest. 

What looks like a top class animal to a 'layman' is often totally outclassed at bigger shows. Just because someone has turned their horse out well, makes the best of the animal they have and has all the 'right' gear should not preclude them from competing at local level.
		
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Totally agree with the above ^


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## blood_magik (27 July 2015)

honetpot said:



			As to adults, the combination can not enter the class once they have won it once, at local level this should be pretty easy to police unless you get someone from outside the area, but  simple question on the entry form, 'has this combination won in any affiliated competition?' perhaps would make them think.
		
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My understanding of this was that it applies to combinations that have won the previous season.
For example, I'm showing one of my horses at grass roots level this year - because he's won his classes, and been reserve and champion, he'll not be allowed to compete at grass roots next year.


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## PaddyMonty (27 July 2015)

If competitors aren't breaking the rules for the class then it's up to them if they go with the spirit of the class.
When I was competing Aff SJ I would often enter a lower height open than the class I wanted to compete in as the prize money helped with the diesel. 
I entered an unaff prelim on a horse I'd placed 9th at BD reqionals the weekend before. Owner of horse had originally entered for herself on her other unaff horse but he went lame. Venue said she could swap entries but not get refund so I took the horse I competed for her.
Nothing in the rules against it and yep we won both tests by some margin but interestingly the only person I heard grumble about it was the person who had been consistently winning the prelims for the last 18 months. Venue did suggest that I shouldn't bring the boy to the championship we had just qualified for though. I wouldn't have done anyway as the day didn't give me any satisfaction, the owner just wanted to go competing so we went with what we had available.


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## Nancykitt (27 July 2015)

sultana said:



			As I said in my post - 'each to their own.' And - if the rosettes make them happy so be it' I don't have an 'attitude' just voicing my opinion and wondering why they don't want to progress further - but its up to them - they are vile people anyway|!!! Ha Ha!!
		
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I'm with you on this - especially with the dressage. I thought the whole point of dressage was that it was structured to develop horse and rider through the different levels. Personally, if I was wiping the board at Prelim I'd want to be moving on up, even if it meant I wasn't automatically getting the red rosette. But yes, each to their own.


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## ahorseandadog (27 July 2015)

That's why I adore those competitions: 'Best Rider Under 12' or 'Best Teenage Rider (13-18)'


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## conniegirl (27 July 2015)

sultana said:



			As I said in my post - 'each to their own.' And - if the rosettes make them happy so be it' I don't have an 'attitude' just voicing my opinion and wondering why they don't want to progress further - but its up to them - they are vile people anyway|!!! Ha Ha!!
		
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So because someone doesnt want to progress it makes them a vile person?
I think the only vile thing here is your attitude to those who are not ultra competative like you. people are sometime happy where they are and do not want to progress further, it can be for many many reasons one of which is a simple desire to stick within thier comfort zone. It does not make them vile people, it makes them human and the only vile ones are those that call them vile!


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## Nancykitt (27 July 2015)

conniegirl said:



			So because someone doesnt want to progress it makes them a vile person?
I think the only vile thing here is your attitude to those who are not ultra competative like you. people are sometime happy where they are and do not want to progress further, it can be for many many reasons one of which is a simple desire to stick within thier comfort zone. It does not make them vile people, it makes them human and the only vile ones are those that call them vile!
		
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My reading of this post was that sultana was referring to specific people that were known to her, not implying that everyone in this position is 'vile'.


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## Goldenstar (27 July 2015)

ahorseandadog said:



			That's why I adore those competitions: 'Best Rider Under 12' or 'Best Teenage Rider (13-18)'
		
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Me too but the makeup takes me hours to apply .


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## Nancykitt (27 July 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Me too but the makeup takes me hours to apply .
		
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Hahaha! The sad thing about my riding is that I would almost certainly be beaten by anyone eligible for those classes!
The only class I've ever won at a show was called 'Wrinklies' Equitation - novice riders 25 and over.' As there was also a 'senior equitation' class, there were no serious showing riders at all in Wrinklies. I did enjoy it and I have to say that some of the judges were wonderful and gave me lots of confidence, just in my general riding. I'm not good enough to go any further in competition but I'm happy to be doing what I'm doing now, which is hacking and hunting. 
However, if I was any good at showing and/or dressage I'd like to try and move up rather than stick to the same local show.


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## gmw (27 July 2015)

Love this thread evoked soooo many memories.  The 'lady' that used to ask how many were entered in a class if it was less than however many rosettes were handed out she wold enter so she was guaranteed a rosette. Another who regularly used to cut up when steward called competitors in. If the steward or judge were not sharp enough she would place herself up a few places up.  Another was most put out when it was pointed out that the 'cup' would only be given to a paid member of the club. I was thrown the membership fee from a great distance and advised she was now a fully paid up member of the club. I politely pointed out that she was not a member of the club at the time of the competition so not eligible to have the 'cup'. Exit with great huffing and puffing of one fully paid up member of club.   God why did I do it every Sunday for years.
 Simple because of the sweet kids and novice riders that came with their precious pony 
or horse and came to thank me at the end of the day. I always used to say it was my pleasure. Some of those kids went on to do affiliated and one is now an international rider.


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## Snowy Celandine (27 July 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Me too but the makeup takes me hours to apply .
		
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You are funny - in a good way


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## siennamum (27 July 2015)

I suppose that everyone competes for different reasons. If you have a horse who is very good at a local level but not good enough to do well at County then you will stick to local level.

I judge sometimes and the same combinations win year after year. So long as they are eligible then I can't see the problem. 

In the same position with my mare I stopped showing and did something else. She could go out every week and win at local shows and small agricultural level but personally if there's no sense of achievement then it's pointless. 

I know proper 'pot hunters' (especially those who compete in low key dressage events on good affiliated horses) and I wonder why they don't just buy themselves a pack of rosettes, it would be cheaper, and a lot less effort - you could award yourself a sash then also.


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## burtie (27 July 2015)

siennamum said:



			I suppose that everyone competes for different reasons. If you have a horse who is very good at a local level but not good enough to do well at County then you will stick to local level.

I judge sometimes and the same combinations win year after year. So long as they are eligible then I can't see the problem. 

In the same position with my mare I stopped showing and did something else. She could go out every week and win at local shows and small agricultural level but personally if there's no sense of achievement then it's pointless. 

I know proper 'pot hunters' (especially those who compete in low key dressage events on good affiliated horses) and I wonder why they don't just buy themselves a pack of rosettes, it would be cheaper, and a lot less effort - you could award yourself a sash then also.
		
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This! I have also wondered why they don't just buy there own! Seems a lot of effort to achieve the same thing weekend over and over!


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## DragonSlayer (27 July 2015)

pip6 said:



			. There should be a set of novice sj classes where they can't enter the intermediate or open classes. If they want experience, use the clear round. Maybe they could do the same at dressage shows, have a 'clear round' with a choice of 2 tests (one harder than other), and you enter in turn to be judged. No placings or prizes, just a judges opinion on how you are doing.
		
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THIS is what I'd like to see, whether or not people think I'm ignorant of the rules or whatever. IMO it makes it fair, but then....that's just my opinion.


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## ester (27 July 2015)

does that not negate the fact that it is a competition then !?!


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## DragonSlayer (27 July 2015)

Why does it do that? If you enter novice and intermediate, or intermediate and open, you still have competition don't you? Not saying this has to be the norm everywhere and all the time, just to even things out a bit.


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## conniegirl (27 July 2015)

I think she ment the whole no placings no prizes clear round idea


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## DragonSlayer (27 July 2015)

conniegirl said:



			I think she ment the whole no placings no prizes clear round idea
		
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Ah! Doh! Silly me, apologies!


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## shetland pony (27 July 2015)

Haven't read all replies but part of the problem may be that when you've been to the effort to go to the show, people want to enter as much as possible,  and showing classes fill gaps


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## honetpot (27 July 2015)

conniegirl said:



			hmm ok then what happens if like one lady I know she took her young horse out to its first ever show and her first ever show. she was the only one in the novice class so won by default. by your rules her and her 4yr old baby would then no longer be able to do the novice classes ever again. Thats like saying you did the prelim 1 test, it was a total disaster and you scored 30% but because you are the only entry you got a red rosette and now you must do the novice dressage tests!

Oh and for RC clubs that run a points system for end of year trophies the novice class would be a nightmare!

For those who say good competitors shouldnt be allowed at local level
Yes I take my young horse out to local shows, he is a very nice young horse who also does the affiliated novice classes and affiliated opens, we have even done a couple of HOYS qualifiers and I've been showing for over 20 years. But you know what, he needs the time in the ring, we often have an issue to work through that can only be worked through at a show even if you cant see it whilst watching from the ring side, it could be that he has decided that galloping in a group is a good excuse to lose the plot or that judges with hats on are terrifying or my last one was that every horse on the show ground was his best friend and he couldn't possibly ever go away from them even if he had never met them before (doesn't do it at home its a security thing so the more I get him out the better he gets).
there is also the fact that a lot of people cant afford the £50+ per class entry fees at a lot of county shows.
		
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 I said affiliated competition, this is for showing. There are very few affiliated shows were there is only one entry, certainly in 25 years I have never been to one, in fact as affiliated shows are usually qualifiers for major championships the judge may not award first place if the entry is not of high enough quality. They do not have to be county shows, and the entries are not all £50. If your baby four year old is good enough to get a first place at a local riding club, well done, but there are ample opportunities to do other classes, don't keep going in the novice class at the same show against the same competitors, go HC or do another show. No one is saying that there should not be a good standard at local level but if you continue to be a big fish in a small pond you are fooling yourself, move over and let someone else have a chance.  
As an adult do you really need to win to know whether you how good you are or not? We have won and thought sometimes the pony did not do its best and perhaps someone else should have got it or the judge was not looking at the same ponies, sometime its works against us, I usually know what the top 3 will be roughly. As I said we used to do it for fun and as a day out, I do not need my ego fed by competing against people who are not as experienced as us, and would rather come bottom in a line of good ones and learn.
I took my baby to a show and because of the timing we did the Open before the Novice, of course we were last, we were rubbish, but it is all time in the ring. The show was the same, the same with the ring only the judge was different,  If we had won, highly unlikely I would have been very pleased and we would have done something else if we were out of the class for the rest of the year.
  I do think that also if your horse is getting ring crafty, or is just too exited,  the show ring with a bunch of novices is not the place to school it, the good ones are good because all the work is done before they get there.
  I was once at a show were someone in our class had brought a pony it so they could give it a smack where no one would not know it, they were showing at county level and told me how well they had been doing, they then moaned when they did not win. I have also been to a small show, really small, where a producer has turned up with a lorry load of ponies and cleared the board in every class they entered. To the producer they were novices, ( but not for most people)and she was doing her job and she had every right to enter but the child that came fourth with and clear round and a tidy show will never know she was up against the horsey equivalent of David Beckham and the red, blue and yellow rosettes won by the producers ponies will probably end up in the bin.
  Dressage is different, Prelim, Novice is the level of test, you could win with a result of 60% but the % is actually a better representation of how well you have done not the colour of the rosette, if you won with 30% you should be even off the yard and I would be ashamed. To be honest I used to do a lot of dressage writing and I would see the same people, doing the same test,month after month getting roughly the same scores, but they obviously enjoyed it so what was the harm, but most of them were not actually winning.


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## SmallHunter (27 July 2015)

Just because some has picked the correct class for their horse, turned it out correctly, as well as themselves and schooled it to a standard where it goes well for them and produces a good show does not make them a pot hunter it is called doing your homework and learning ringcraft. So many people think that showing is easy all you do is walk, trot and canter on both reins and gallop if appropriate but it isn't that simple it is about playing to your horses strengths and using ringcraft to show it off well.
When I started we looked like this I was 15 and my mare was 7 and now I can pick out at least 10 faults in 5 seconds






we did ok like that got some rosettes but never higher than 4th or 5th (normally out of 4 or 5  )

Now I am 26 and she is 18 and in those 11 years we learnt, we changed, and we schooled and now we look like this





and our results went from middle of the pack or propping uo the bottom of the line to top 3 most of the time except when we have a moment which even at 18 she does still have. We can't afford to affiliate so we make the most of what we can do and do it to the best of our ability by paying attention and learning and I didn't have to pay for the knowledge it is all freely available if you care to look for it and if anyone ever asks for help and advice I would help them in a heartbeat


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## shetland pony (27 July 2015)

Haven't read all replies but part of the problem may be that when you've been to the effort to go to the show, people want to enter as much as possible,  and showing classes fill gaps for some people, might do a dressage, and then 2 or 3 jumpings especially when there are 3" increases,  also sometimes when it's the first few shows for horse or nervous rider, you might be doing better than expected and want a go at the next class, I can understand some people using lower heights as warm up, considering some of the warm up rings, but you could ask for a discount and to not be included in the placings. 

With dressage surely it depends on other competitors not wrong class, you could enter one week and come first, then do the same the next week and come last even with a higher percentage. Obviously people should move up but sometimes shows don't have many classes, you might want an early class before it gets busy, you might not be confident enough, the jump between tests could be too much, also some people move up at 70 and others might want much higher before they would go to the next level.

If it's an open class, then it's for anyone (but the same combination shouldn't enter novice etc.) With different heights,  is being able to jump 3' much of an advantage in a 2'6", because it's the bits between the jumps that count,  and it's the same for everyone,  and most people enter a bit smaller that they jump at home.

With showing, it is subjective,  and depends on the others entered that day, but I don't think you should jump back down a few levels, but what about when 'big' shows are too far away, not often, and local shows don't have classes high enough, you want more practice in between/out of season, or your at the show anyway?  

People shouldn't be allowed to go in classes below their ability, unless a confidence knock etc. And not the same combination in multiple levels in same show. (Also local shows near me give discounts so the more you enter the cheaper it is, that could encourage it, oh it's only £2 more, when I competed a few years back I entered clear round as a warm up, so it doesn't effect other competitors.


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## WelshD (27 July 2015)

honetpot said:



			I said affiliated competition, this is for showing. There are very few affiliated shows were there is only one entry, certainly in 25 years I have never been to one,
		
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I follow showing quite closely and am regularly seeing classes where there are just one or two entries even at very large affiliated shows - sign of the times? Geographical? Who knows

At a big summer championship show this weekend there was just one entry in a class where the prize money was £100 (the money wasn't awarded but that's another story)


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## shortstuff99 (27 July 2015)

I think the only true 'pot hunter' that I've come across was at this years trailblazers championships. The horse was actually ineligible for the class the girl had entered which she did to purely try and win, she was found out however.


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## Moomin1 (27 July 2015)

honetpot said:



			Dressage is different, Prelim, Novice is the level of test, you could win with a result of 60% but the % is actually a better representation of how well you have done not the colour of the rosette, if you won with 30% you should be even off the yard and I would be ashamed. To be honest I used to do a lot of dressage writing and I would see the same people, doing the same test,month after month getting roughly the same scores, but they obviously enjoyed it so what was the harm, but most of them were not actually winning.
		
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My gripe with unaff dressage is more the standard difference in the judging.  I've seen some horrendous tests done with horses unable to bend around the corner even never mind work in any type of correct outline and yet they walk away with high 60's and sometimes 70's.


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## ester (27 July 2015)

honetpot said:



			I said affiliated competition, this is for showing.
		
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so won affiliated showing competition?
Affiliated to whom? There are a lot of society's with slightly different levels, including breed shows? What about local 'clubs' like South West Ponies- essentially unaffiliated but with their own championships? 
I would be really surprised if there at that many people out winning affiliated/county competing at unaffiliated show, I certainly haven't seen anything of that quality that wasn't 4 yo in somerset or Wiltshire/hamps. There are plenty that would appear nice types are nice but wouldn't stand any where near the top of the line up county.


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## gembear (27 July 2015)

fatpiggy said:



			You could argue, why keep climbing the same mountain, year on year?  Not everyone wants to be particularly competitive or ambitious, I understand that, and may be happy working at a particular level, but in that case, why not say, right I've done that on X, lets have a go at something new. Or go HC if you just want to take part "for the fun of it".  Most small shows are more interested in maximizing their income I think and aren't going to refuse the entry money for HC!
		
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conniegirl said:



			Why should they have to go HC? they pay the same money as everyone else and sometimes people are comfortable doing what they are doing and enjoy it. sometimes they dont want to try something new, they may not jump, they may not want to go fast (games) they may not feel comfortable going any higher and why should they have to?
Personaly I've climbed snowdon 5 times in the last year, why? because I enjoy the walk. not because its a challenge or difficult but because I can have a lovely walk, a natter with friends and enjoy the view from the top. so tell me why should I go climb some other mountain?
		
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I can see both sides of the argument. As someone that only started unaff dressage over a year ago, i'm a novice rider on an experienced horse. He's competed up to elem in his prime, but that doesn't mean he does the perfect dressage test for everyone. He's a lazy sod and will put in zero effort if you don't ride him correctly.

We started with an intro for our first test and won, second test was prelim 12 & we came 5th. 
Second time intro we came 4th, second test prelim and came 6th.
third time intro we came 3rd, second test prelim we came 1st.

Now I won't do any more intro's and will stick to the prelims because I feel even though i've only won 1 out of 3, i've gained enough confidence and experience to go for two prelims. The intro is suppose to be for novice riders or horses to get on their feet. However, if I totally lost my confidence or had other issues, I wouldn't disregard entering an intro again in the future if I needed it. 

What I do roll my eyes at though is a girl who has been riding some time, with her experienced horse, wearing spurs... who always enters the intro and wins. I'm sure the last one she got 69%. She didn't even bother with the prelim. That is pot hunting.


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## conniegirl (27 July 2015)

honetpot said:



			I said affiliated competition, this is for showing. There are very few affiliated shows were there is only one entry, certainly in 25 years I have never been to one, in fact as affiliated shows are usually qualifiers for major championships the judge may not award first place if the entry is not of high enough quality. They do not have to be county shows, and the entries are not all £50.
		
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 you realy need to get to more shows then I know 3 RIHS qualifiers this year that have had 1 entry and anouther few that have less than 3. White rose county small hunter class is a classic example, 1 entry RIHS class. Infact if you look at most small hunter classes or show hack classes the entries have been very low accross the board.
Last year there was a coloured HOYS qualifier that had 3 entries in it
In fact this year alone I've stewarded or ridden at at least 10 affiliated shows where there have been empty classes or classes with only 1 exibitor.



			If your baby four year old is good enough to get a first place at a local riding club, well done, but there are ample opportunities to do other classes, don't keep going in the novice class at the same show against the same competitors, go HC or do another show. No one is saying that there should not be a good standard at local level but if you continue to be a big fish in a small pond you are fooling yourself, move over and let someone else have a chance.
		
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I think you need to go to specsavers, mine is a 5yr old, my friends is a 4 yr old and she was a total novice, She won her class as she was the only one in it! and novice classes are for novice ponys/horses which by deffinition a 4yr old IS!!! 
infact at affiliated shows my 5yrold is automaticly a novice regardless of any 4yr old results under some society rules.
Why should I go HC on a horse that is a novice, I pay the same money as everyone else.
Novices should be novices for the whole season.




			I do think that also if your horse is getting ring crafty, or is just too exited,  the show ring with a bunch of novices is not the place to school it, the good ones are good because all the work is done before they get there.
		
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Novice classes are for novice horses not novice riders. I know how to school a horse and how to get it set up for the county shows and there are somethings that just cannot be schooled at home and yes sometimes that means taking him to a show where I can give him a smack if nessecary or where I'll be forgiven for booting him in the ribs to get his attention back because he has seen a pony in the next ring that is honestly his bestest long lost buddy.  




			To the producer they were novices, ( but not for most people)and she was doing her job and she had every right to enter but the child that came fourth with and clear round and a tidy show will never know she was up against the horsey equivalent of David Beckham and the red, blue and yellow rosettes won by the producers ponies will probably end up in the bin.
		
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and how exactly do you propose that producers get thier young horses with young new riders out and give them ring experiance? throw them in the deepend with the big boys at the county and affiliated shows? thats a beautiful way to terrify the riders and hence terrify the pony.




			Dressage is different, Prelim, Novice is the level of test, you could win with a result of 60% but the % is actually a better representation of how well you have done not the colour of the rosette, if you won with 30% you should be even off the yard and I would be ashamed. To be honest I used to do a lot of dressage writing and I would see the same people, doing the same test,month after month getting roughly the same scores, but they obviously enjoyed it so what was the harm, but most of them were not actually winning.
		
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we have all had days where everthing has gone wrong, the judge has hated your horse and the horse has decided that it is going to canter every trot etc. 
the first dressage test I did on my last horse we had a 79% but only managed a second. The judge wasnt overly gerenous with that either, it was a fab test. A week later, same test, different judge and different setting my horse decided the world was going to eat him we had a sub 40% result but still a 2nd. He was an extremly talented but extremely quirky youngster. By your reconing should I or shouldnt I have left the yard? My new youngster has yet to do a dressage test.

You obvioulsy havn't produced many young horses for the show ring if you think they magicaly turn up and start winning at affiliated shows having never been out before or that all issues can be solved at home.

So yes i will continue to take my young horse out to local shows to give him the experiance and to iron out his issues and yes occassionaly it is nice to just have a day out showing where there is no pressure, no politics and where you stand a good chance of a red rosette as it gets very disheartening competing at county level sometimes with the faceyness and politics of the big qualifiers.


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## LittleRooketRider (27 July 2015)

It's not just young kiddie classes... I took one of our babies to a local show to do a novice workers - so 2ft/2ft3 was won by a girl I presumed was on a youngster or just happy at that height who I then saw competing in the open workers - 3ft/3ft3!


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## Nancykitt (27 July 2015)

There are a number of shows local to us - I expect it's a similar situation for lots of you. Although all are RC shows some are considerably more 'prestigious' than others and run a lot of qualifiers for the bigger shows. It's known that if you go to one of these you can expect the standard to be high at times. Occasionally producers will turn up at these shows with green horses and often win; the members sometimes pull their faces but technically these people aren't doing anything wrong. 
Then there's the tiny local shows where it really is just about fun and nothing else. There's one not too far away from here and it used to be a great day out where everyone was friendly and people encouraged each other to have a go. Sadly (in my view) some really serious competitors have started going and wiping out the locals. When this started to happen I stopped going because, to me, it's just not in the spirit of the thing. 
I still can't see what pleasure there is to be had in wiping the board, month after month, when the competition isn't that great and winning comes easy. Lots of people have beaten me but there's isn't a great deal of cause for celebration there as I'm such a poor rider.


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## SmallHunter (27 July 2015)

Winning at showing is hard work at whatever level if you think competing and winning should be easy then you haven't understood what a competition is. 
You wouldn't take a horse that can't jump showjumping and then complain when you get beaten by horses that can jump.
You wouldn't go to dressage and not bother to learn the test and complain when you get beaten by those who did learn it.
So why is it OK to complain if you are beaten at showing by someone who knows what they are doing and does it well?


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## honetpot (27 July 2015)

ester said:



			so won affiliated showing competition?
Affiliated to whom? There are a lot of society's with slightly different levels, including breed shows? What about local 'clubs' like South West Ponies- essentially unaffiliated but with their own championships? 
I would be really surprised if there at that many people out winning affiliated/county competing at unaffiliated show, I certainly haven't seen anything of that quality that wasn't 4 yo in somerset or Wiltshire/hamps. There are plenty that would appear nice types are nice but wouldn't stand any where near the top of the line up county.
		
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 Your are completely right, there are several breed/show societies and some of them  cater to local members and just have  a couple of classes that are linked to major shows with large prizes, or very prestigious shows, its a bit like having the divisions in football. As I have M&M's although there is a breed standards, I think there is a  NPS, BSPS type and then the breed shows which when you get the breed show where the breed experts  can ruffle  feathers. You think your animal is a good standard and you test the water, if its going really well you move up to the next level. In my area there are many really good animals about, steward so I see a lot of them close up, thankfully they do not usually turn up at the local riding club or PC show. 
 The showing societies, be it national or local are always trying to give people a chance to compete at their level, what ever that is, and have fun, at a very reasonable price for the amount of work that goes in to organising them.  That is why its really ticks me off when someone has turned up with a very expensive animal( whether its well ridden or well produced is an other matter), in very expensive gear, but they just aren't getting the results they want so they  turn's up at show where some of the kids( and some adults) have hacked to it, or its their only opportunity because they can not afford the entries and travel costs to go anywhere else. Some of the RC you can only win the points championship if your only a member and live in the area.
 Lets put its this way,our pony was champion at our local riding club with my twelve year old daughter the first time we took him out, she had been a member since she was five, doing lead rein gymkhana on a different pony, we never showed him there again. We continued to do RC with her bargain basement TB who's highest place I think was fourth.


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## ester (27 July 2015)

Nancykitt that is my experience of 'local' shows too, some do tend to have more qualifiers and hence a slightly higher standard of entry - I knew which were which back in Somerset but am still learning here in wilts and have no transport anyway so less important. 

My chap is the ultimate all rounder and just to throw it out there honetpot has been getting older since I've had him (22 now) so even if more typey would have been too old to move on and show with the big boys. He is typical local show material really, well enough put together, well schooled with lots of fans but old fashioned in type. I have all the gear now but never used to, although much of it these days (jacket and boots and nice jeffries traditional bridle were all courtesy of LizzieJ on here wanting me to look proper if I was going to be doing it!)

Funny what you say about breed shows, I always presume that a royal welsh win means a lot more than hoys/rihs for the welshies .


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## honetpot (27 July 2015)

conniegirl said:



			you realy need to get to more shows then I know 3 RIHS qualifiers this year that have had 1 entry and anouther few that have less than 3. White rose county small hunter class is a classic example, 1 entry RIHS class. Infact if you look at most small hunter classes or show hack classes the entries have been very low accross the board.
Last year there was a coloured HOYS qualifier that had 3 entries in it
In fact this year alone I've stewarded or ridden at at least 10 affiliated shows where there have been empty classes or classes with only 1 exibitor.

I think you need to go to specsavers, mine is a 5yr old, my friends is a 4 yr old and she was a total novice, She won her class as she was the only one in it! and novice classes are for novice ponys/horses which by deffinition a 4yr old IS!!! 
infact at affiliated shows my 5yrold is automaticly a novice regardless of any 4yr old results under some society rules.
Why should I go HC on a horse that is a novice, I pay the same money as everyone else.
Novices should be novices for the whole season.


Novice classes are for novice horses not novice riders. I know how to school a horse and how to get it set up for the county shows and there are somethings that just cannot be schooled at home and yes sometimes that means taking him to a show where I can give him a smack if nessecary or where I'll be forgiven for booting him in the ribs to get his attention back because he has seen a pony in the next ring that is honestly his bestest long lost buddy.  


and how exactly do you propose that producers get thier young horses with young new riders out and give them ring experiance? throw them in the deepend with the big boys at the county and affiliated shows? thats a beautiful way to terrify the riders and hence terrify the pony.



we have all had days where everthing has gone wrong, the judge has hated your horse and the horse has decided that it is going to canter every trot etc. 
the first dressage test I did on my last horse we had a 79% but only managed a second. The judge wasnt overly gerenous with that either, it was a fab test. A week later, same test, different judge and different setting my horse decided the world was going to eat him we had a sub 40% result but still a 2nd. He was an extremly talented but extremely quirky youngster. By your reconing should I or shouldnt I have left the yard? My new youngster has yet to do a dressage test.

You obvioulsy havn't produced many young horses for the show ring if you think they magicaly turn up and start winning at affiliated shows having never been out before or that all issues can be solved at home.

So yes i will continue to take my young horse out to local shows to give him the experiance and to iron out his issues and yes occassionaly it is nice to just have a day out showing where there is no pressure, no politics and where you stand a good chance of a red rosette as it gets very disheartening competing at county level sometimes with the faceyness and politics of the big qualifiers.
		
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 I have actually produced all ours from scratch, if its not your full time job its does take planning, deciding when to go to next level, then you have set back, changing direction and coming at the problem a different way. The producers have an advantage because they usually have a couple of riders at shows and there is an extra pair of hands to ride a novice round, but that is what we would do take a something to ride and something for the trip out. I like youngsters, they are very fulfilling, showing for is part of their general education, on their way to big school.


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## Nancykitt (27 July 2015)

SmallHunter said:



			Winning at showing is hard work at whatever level if you think competing and winning should be easy then you haven't understood what a competition is. 
You wouldn't take a horse that can't jump showjumping and then complain when you get beaten by horses that can jump.
You wouldn't go to dressage and not bother to learn the test and complain when you get beaten by those who did learn it.
So why is it OK to complain if you are beaten at showing by someone who knows what they are doing and does it well?
		
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Not sure if this was aimed at me, but just to clarify...
I'm not complaining about being beaten by someone who knows what they are doing and does it well. I'm not actually complaining about being beaten at all because I no longer do any sort of competitive riding. 
But one of the reasons I don't want to compete is the attitude of some (and I mean some, not all) seasoned, experienced riders that are very serious competitors and will go to any show because they seem addicted to red rosettes. The little local show was great fun when it was for people entering their very ordinary, un-flashy and much loved horses and doing their very best. When people winning at big shows and county level start turning up with their 'special' horses then it takes the fun out of it at that level. 
There are many different levels to competitive riding. In an ideal world, there would be something for everyone to enjoy but that's not my experience so I simply don't do it any more. There was one woman with HOYS experience who turned up and said 'I don't settle for anything less than red'. Her pony totally outclassed the more ordinary gees and, of course, it did win everything. The point I'm making is - what's the pleasure in that for her? You've won at County, you've been to HOYS - what's the pleasure in going and whooping a load of riders who are in it for fun and may not have the time or resources to take things more seriously?


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## Equi (27 July 2015)

I also hate seeing this. There was recently a very small local jumping training show. 50cm cross pole type one. Everyone was either old and on big fat cobs, or about 5 on little ponies.

Then comes in this older teen on a connemara jumping pony that has been trained by whitakers and totally wipes the plate every week. Based on the style of his riding, he was no nor was the horse NEAR novice.


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## Nancykitt (27 July 2015)

equi said:



			I also hate seeing this. There was recently a very small local jumping training show. 50cm cross pole type one. Everyone was either old and on big fat cobs, or about 5 on little ponies.

Then comes in this older teen on a connemara jumping pony that has been trained by whitakers and totally wipes the plate every week. Based on the style of his riding, he was no nor was the horse NEAR novice.
		
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Yes, this is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. 
Hugely experienced riders with incredibly impressive horses turning up and competing well below their level. Is there really any fun in that?
There were people at our little local show kitted out in second-hand everything, looking clean and smart, but put them next to someone in premium gear, immaculate new boots with spurs, made-to-measure jacket - and it's very, very obvious. 
I'm not denying anyone the chance to do what they want to do in terms of competing, but I think that the obvious pot-hunters do a lot of damage and can, in the long run, have a negative impact on swelling the numbers at the small local shows.


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## Pigeon (27 July 2015)

SmallHunter said:



			Winning at showing is hard work at whatever level if you think competing and winning should be easy then you haven't understood what a competition is. 
You wouldn't take a horse that can't jump showjumping and then complain when you get beaten by horses that can jump.
You wouldn't go to dressage and not bother to learn the test and complain when you get beaten by those who did learn it.
So why is it OK to complain if you are beaten at showing by someone who knows what they are doing and does it well?
		
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It's actually more comparable to someone whose horse wins at 1m10 entering a 2'3 fun class and beating all the kiddies on lead reins.

If you're really that good at showing, why do you feel the need to go to the local 'fun' shows and wipe the board? It must stem from insecurity or a failure to pin in more suitable company.


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## dollymix (27 July 2015)

I don't show and don't in principle agree with "pot hunters" but I will say that some people attend local shows over and over, despite having what others have deemed to be "county standard" horses, because they dont have the money for affiliated comps. 

Often you need to register with a society, the shows are far away (so more expensive to get to), and in general, all the gear has to be "top quality" in order to get a placing. 

Whereas they might be able to hack to local RC show, or catch a lift. They don't need to register with any society and the classes are generally cheaper.

Just playing devils advocate because as I said, I don't show, but I also know that not everyone can afford to compete at higher levels even if they and their horse are capable.


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## SusieT (27 July 2015)

If all of you who are so offended by these people are only there to 'better yourself', 'compete against yourself' and don't really care about rosettes why do you care if they win????
And why should the shabbiest least groomed pony win just because it looks like it's the poorest family rather than the people who have spent time and money on doing well? What if someone likes winning- why does your 'only there to have fun' viewpoint get priority over theirs (whose fun might be to pick the right class, prepare well and win??)?? If the class is open, accept that everyone can enter, otherwise find the novice class - and accept that some novices are better than others!


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## SmallHunter (27 July 2015)

Pigeon said:



			It's actually more comparable to someone whose horse wins at 1m10 entering a 2'3 fun class and beating all the kiddies on lead reins.

If you're really that good at showing, why do you feel the need to go to the local 'fun' shows and wipe the board? It must stem from insecurity or a failure to pin in more suitable company.
		
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But this is where as someone pointed out earlier the lack of understanding of showing comes in as lovely as my horse is and I adore her a HOYS or RIHS horse she is not. We are turned out correctly for that level she is schooled well enough for that level but she is not and never will be typey enough for that level of showing I can not change that about her and so we stick to a level where we hold our own. I am not a professional I do it for fun just as much as anyone else at a riding club show, I don't do novice classes, or classes aimed at beginners, i don't do family horse pony or fun classes or even riding club horse classes I stick to the proper showing classes like Hunters and Veterans.
I am certainly not insecure but I don't look at my horse through rose tinted glasses and I know her limitations


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## sasquatch (27 July 2015)

The level of competing I do is well below what most would call 'local' level - I compete in the jumping league my yard runs that has outside competitors and their All Silver Fun Days which include jumping and showing. I have very, very limited showing experience and knowledge.

I see the 'pot-hunters' there, whilst I would have been jumping the 60cm and 70cm and no doubt many considered me a 'pot-hunter' myself, I stopped jumping the 60cm when I felt like it was becoming too easy. 

However, even in the 70cm you can tell the winners or who you'd expect to place purely by the riders who come in on their horses and ponies who are known for jumping 1m20's affiliated. Whilst this isn't an issue, when they jump every class or start at 70/80cm and work their way up to the meter, it doesn't give an even footing to the rest of the competition who don't have horses with the same ability or schooled to the level of someone regularly competing the same horses round 1m20 tracks. 

I find it incredibly satisfying to know my speedy little cob is beating the 1m20 horses with ease or losing by a few seconds or points of a second, but sometimes it's ridiculous when you can predict the top 3 - I know jumping is a lot fairer in that a fault is a fault, but when you're competing against a horse who is winning around 1m tracks in the 60 or 70cm class then it does become predictable as to who is winning. 

I'm happy jumping round 70cm, it's a nice height for me and my horse as between fences he needs a lot of work and he's recently lost confidence and been out of work. Whilst he's capable of jumping much bigger, he isn't confident enough or ready to do it. So to be up against people who treat the 60s and 70s as a 'warmup class' it does become irritating. It can make you feel not too great come second to someone who is saying their win was easy and they didn't even have to try because they're winning much bigger classes. I find it most irritating when I have had a lovely clear from my horse, and a really nice round from him only to not be in with a chance of placing due to being against people who are treating the class as a warm up.

As I've said, I don't understand or do much showing, but I do understand jumping and find it ridiculous this happens even at the extremely local level - although I do think lots of the pony parents are as bad as the kids!

There's definitely a difference between them and those on green, inexperienced or horses who lack in confidence too. And the same for riders.


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## rara007 (27 July 2015)

I have a reasonably smart native pony- he's no where near county standard on the flat (he's still in novice according to all the affiliated bodies, despite years of showing with his old owners), we don't look outclassed (IMO) but he's never going to be top of the shake up, and realistically as a 11YO gelding section D that's always gone pretty well that's not going to change. Some local show's by having the show saddle, bridle, saddle cloth, and having a well schooled pony, that's enough to not only win the class but go through to the championship. Others with qualifiers living in a very show heavy area, a few weeks before an affiliated show at the centre that's not enough. As such at my first unaff show with him I wasn't even placed- of the line up that was all 6 have now qualified for RIHS and a handful of those not placed too. The next unaffiliated show which was at a less flashy venue I did we won everything we did. The next we were genuinely over the moon at being placed 7th in a RIHS qualifier. A total life best for the both of us. There's now no 'close' county shows left this season and it's hardly worth a 3 hour drive to be bottom 1/4 of the line (unless your class is in the main ring or something  ) . As I've done one county show and placed (ish) and won locally does that mean I now can't do the local shows?
At a show last october I was beaten in the championship to reserve (on another pony, at his first show) to a pony that was placed at Royal Windsor, qualified RIHS, placed Suffolk show, and was Welsh D performance champion for that year. It was a totally unaffiliated charity show- should they have been there? Absolutely, he was accompanying their other stallion to his first show and rather than waste a trip they entered the both of them. He by far in a way outclassed the rest of the show and thoroughly deserved his championship.
I'm off to an agricultural show this weekend with my veteran driving pony in a couple of ridden classes. He goes pretty smartly (BD elem, international driving) but he's barely ever shown, never won even locally as the times he's gone the local pony producers/show sponsors have been there, and to be totally honest isn't true to any type. He's not registered but has too much movement for a hunter pony. I'm taking him for the day out with a friend and am looking forwards to it. Am I wrong for having entered the novice? I'm within the rules (not to have won twice) and it'll be the biggest show he's ever gone to so I quite frankly don't care if anyone thinks that's wrong


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## Nancykitt (27 July 2015)

A



SusieT said:



			If all of you who are so offended by these people are only there to 'better yourself', 'compete against yourself' and don't really care about rosettes why do you care if they win????
And why should the shabbiest least groomed pony win just because it looks like it's the poorest family rather than the people who have spent time and money on doing well? What if someone likes winning- why does your 'only there to have fun' viewpoint get priority over theirs (whose fun might be to pick the right class, prepare well and win??)?? If the class is open, accept that everyone can enter, otherwise find the novice class - and accept that some novices are better than others!
		
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I don't actually identify with a lot of the comments on this post but will respond to a few.
I can't see anywhere on this thread the suggestion that a 'shabby' pony should win just because a family is poor. Like I said, there are competitions at many different levels. There are little local shows for people who have no desire to go further and just want to enjoy a day out amongst friends. Then there are bigger shows for the more serious amateurs and then higher level competition.
What I am saying is that when those who belong at a higher level than the family fun show start going to those places just to win, it changes things. Even at the tiny shows people like as level a playing field as possible. Even very inexperienced people like to do well - but I still don't understand how a HOYS competitor can get pleasure from beating those who are maybe just starting out at the most basic level. Yes, of course the serious competitors want to win - but there are plenty of places for them to go and do just that, competing against people of a similar standard.
I see lots of clean and tidy, well-groomed and much loved ponies at these little shows. They are not scruffy and badly turned out but are very unlikely to go further than the lowest levels of showing. Doesn't mean they can't have a nice day out with friends. But when you get someone very successful turning up,who is very obviously in another league- and wiping the board- it leaves a very bad taste. Why haven't some of the local families 'spent the time and money' as you say- well maybe because they don't have the time and money? 
This is why I opted out of competitive riding. I don't regret it at all.


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## ozpoz (28 July 2015)

I always remember the quote from a lovely little book"The Art of Showing" with beautiful 1950's photos.
 "Teach your child to admire beautiful ponies and good riders, but always love your own pony best". 

I do agree with the posters who feel you compete against yourself.


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## ester (28 July 2015)

sasquatch said:



			The level of competing I do is well below what most would call 'local' level - I compete in the jumping league my yard runs that has outside competitors and their All Silver Fun Days which include jumping and showing. I have very, very limited showing experience and knowledge.

I see the 'pot-hunters' there, whilst I would have been jumping the 60cm and 70cm and no doubt many considered me a 'pot-hunter' myself, I stopped jumping the 60cm when I felt like it was becoming too easy. 

However, even in the 70cm you can tell the winners or who you'd expect to place purely by the riders who come in on their horses and ponies who are known for jumping 1m20's affiliated. Whilst this isn't an issue, when they jump every class or start at 70/80cm and work their way up to the meter, it doesn't give an even footing to the rest of the competition who don't have horses with the same ability or schooled to the level of someone regularly competing the same horses round 1m20 tracks. 

I find it incredibly satisfying to know my speedy little cob is beating the 1m20 horses with ease or losing by a few seconds or points of a second, but sometimes it's ridiculous when you can predict the top 3 - I know jumping is a lot fairer in that a fault is a fault, but when you're competing against a horse who is winning around 1m tracks in the 60 or 70cm class then it does become predictable as to who is winning. 

I'm happy jumping round 70cm, it's a nice height for me and my horse as between fences he needs a lot of work and he's recently lost confidence and been out of work. Whilst he's capable of jumping much bigger, he isn't confident enough or ready to do it. So to be up against people who treat the 60s and 70s as a 'warmup class' it does become irritating. It can make you feel not too great come second to someone who is saying their win was easy and they didn't even have to try because they're winning much bigger classes. I find it most irritating when I have had a lovely clear from my horse, and a really nice round from him only to not be in with a chance of placing due to being against people who are treating the class as a warm up.

As I've said, I don't understand or do much showing, but I do understand jumping and find it ridiculous this happens even at the extremely local level - although I do think lots of the pony parents are as bad as the kids!

There's definitely a difference between them and those on green, inexperienced or horses who lack in confidence too. And the same for riders.
		
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Well that would be easily resolved by the organiser putting a money limit on the classes as most wouldn't have got to fox without winning some. Though you must know some very odd people as I don't know anyone competing even disco and above let alone fox!! That would jump unaff 70cm, that is just bizarre.


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## ester (28 July 2015)

For me essentially showing is an excuse to make my pony look pretty, have a nice day in the sunshine with him, have a couple of people say how lovely he is/can't poss be 22, get a nice photo of him looking shiny and any rosette is a bonus. That is because he is what he is and I don't think it's a personal reflection on either of us if something is better conformed or goes better than him. Much more competitive dressage as that is a judgement on how good my schooling is .


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## loobylu (28 July 2015)

Erm, are competitions meant to be a 'level playing field'? Surely the idea is that the best on the day wins.
This is from someone who hasn't won a rosette since 2013! I was third from last in a BE100 on Sat. I was certainly not the third worst rider, and my horse jumped with ease, and was vastly more relaxed in the warm ups. I had an amazing day and was delighted.
I used to do a little showing with a hunter pony. Again I felt happy to be just behind the house/ rihs ponies in most line ups.


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## Racergirl (28 July 2015)

ozpoz said:



			I always remember the quote from a lovely little book"The Art of Showing" with beautiful 1950's photos.
 "Teach your child to admire beautiful ponies and good riders, but always love your own pony best". 

I do agree with the posters who feel you compete against yourself.
		
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I love this!! 



ester said:



			For me essentially showing is an excuse to make my pony look pretty, have a nice day in the sunshine with him, have a couple of people say how lovely he is/can't poss be 22, get a nice photo of him looking shiny and any rosette is a bonus. That is because he is what he is and I don't think it's a personal reflection on either of us if something is better conformed or goes better than him. Much more competitive dressage as that is a judgement on how good my schooling is .
		
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That's how I was with all of mine  - it's an excuse for a fun day out, it cost us a fortune as I didnt have transport at the start, and yes, I've been guilty of late entering classes just to go home with a rosette - if I've had a 4am start, I think I deserve at least one!!! 

I run a show with my friends and we have a ring for ex racehorses. Our first class is for total novices who haven't been to more than two shows ( I think - off the top of my head I can't remember what it is, we changed it after no entries last year!) class two is for intermediates and also has a limit on how much they can have done. We rely a lot on people being honest about how much they have done, but we also have a rule that you can't enter both. Anyone can enter the open classes, that's the whole point of it being an open - but you cannot enter class one and two ( or the equivalent ridden class) 

Far as I'm concerned, I agree with the others on here - there are very specific types for each showing class and as long as you accept that your horse isn't Nececcarily going to be the best then you can have a lot of fun. 

Isn't showing all about trying not to drop bacon juice on your jods anyway?


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## Doormouse (28 July 2015)

DragonSlayer said:



			At a fair-sized village show last year, the person who won the novice went on to win the open. I didn't know the person had entered the open as we went home (relative borrowed my horse) else I would have lodged a complaint. Sent an email asking for justification to this but never got a reply even though the committee acknowledged receipt. Needless to say, they won't get our support this year.
		
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Actually I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I'm sure the horse was a novice and clearly a very nice well behaved one, no reason it shouldn't go into the open class and if it was nicer and went better than the open horses then no reason at all it shouldn't win that too.


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## Nancykitt (28 July 2015)

loobylu said:



			Erm, are competitions meant to be a 'level playing field'? Surely the idea is that the best on the day wins.
This is from someone who hasn't won a rosette since 2013! I was third from last in a BE100 on Sat. I was certainly not the third worst rider, and my horse jumped with ease, and was vastly more relaxed in the warm ups. I had an amazing day and was delighted.
I used to do a little showing with a hunter pony. Again I felt happy to be just behind the house/ rihs ponies in most line ups.
		
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By 'level playing field' I meant  of a reasonably similar standard. That is true of many competitive sports. If everyone can go everywhere and compete in everything then it can't be denied that this has an impact, especially on those who will then have absolutely no chance of winning anything ever. 
If you are competing at B£100 then you are already way, way above the level that many riders will ever reach. I could train every day for the next five years and not be within a sniff of BE80, let alone BE100. I don't know for sure, but would I be right in saying that pot-hunting is rarer in eventing anyway, because of the way that it is structured?
I suppose the equivalent of what I'm talking about is someone who had been successful at BE Novice turning up at our local hunter trials day and doing the 2'6" class there. 

This thread has made me think about the whole 'winning or the taking part' debate. For some people, including yourself, it would seem, it's very much about the taking part. For others it's definitely about being the best. My friend knows someone who competes at county level and is successful, but was putting photos on facebook of a bunch of red rosettes she'd gained at a little local show. Friends were commenting along the lines of 'Aw hun, you did great!' - but come on, it's a local show and most of the people competing there don't go anywhere else. 

My daughters competed for a few years and we have a box of rosettes upstairs; it was fun while it lasted but we found that the pot-hunters did spoil it when they turned up. I then took up hunting and have never looked back. On Sunday our hunt organised a fun ride; at one stage I was riding alongside one of the Masters, who has competed at Badminton; at another stage I was with a group of very successful showjumpers and then a young woman on her first ever group ride. I learn so much from everyone...no rosettes, but I came home feeling pleased that I'd sat a decent buck and tackled the gallops with a smile on my face!


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## PaddyMonty (28 July 2015)

Nancykitt said:



			but would I be right in saying that pot-hunting is rarer in eventing anyway, because of the way that it is structured?
		
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Eventing is one of the few sports where the grass roots rider will find themselves up against the worlds elite in the same section. Whilst difficult it is extremely rewarding on the odd occasions that you are able to beat them. Level playing field? I think not. I had to fit in training my horse around a 50 hour working week and hiring/boxing to  facilities. Compared to the setup of the pros.......


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## ester (28 July 2015)

Essentially if you want levels controlled and records kept for anything you go affiliated. Even though I think many that do any discipline would think that some people 'pot hunt' simply by staying at the same level (within their comfort zone) and doing very well even if the horse is capable of doing more, that is maybe less possible BS though with BE/BD you could do BE90/100 and prelims forever if you wanted.


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## Nancykitt (28 July 2015)

PaddyMonty said:



			Eventing is one of the few sports where the grass roots rider will find themselves up against the worlds elite in the same section. Whilst difficult it is extremely rewarding on the odd occasions that you are able to beat them. Level playing field? I think not. I had to fit in training my horse around a 50 hour working week and hiring/boxing to  facilities. Compared to the setup of the pros.......
		
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But my understanding is that 'grass roots' eventing is done by very skilled riders...and what you are describing in terms of training your horse and getting to events suggests that this is a lifestyle for the very, very dedicated; I have a tremendous amount of respect for these people.

But what I'm talking about when I refer to 'local shows' is a few show rings on a field where lots of people hack to the venue, are decked out in second hand show gear, try their best, have a good time, accumulate points towards the end of season championship, attend the awards evening  and never go to any other shows. It's not really possible to compare. What I'm saying is - what pleasure does a seasoned and successful show rider get from attending such a show?


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## ester (28 July 2015)

grass roots eventing is not always done by very skilled riders! , they usually have plenty of gear though .


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## Nancykitt (28 July 2015)

ester said:



			grass roots eventing is not always done by very skilled riders! , they usually have plenty of gear though .
		
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Fair enough - they are probably very skilled compared to me, though (and certainly have a lot more bottle!) - and for this, I admire them!


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## Goldenstar (28 July 2015)

Nancykitt said:



			But my understanding is that 'grass roots' eventing is done by very skilled riders...and what you are describing in terms of training your horse and getting to events suggests that this is a lifestyle for the very, very dedicated; I have a tremendous amount of respect for these people.

But what I'm talking about when I refer to 'local shows' is a few show rings on a field where lots of people hack to the venue, are decked out in second hand show gear, try their best, have a good time, accumulate points towards the end of season championship, attend the awards evening  and never go to any other shows. It's not really possible to compare. What I'm saying is - what pleasure does a seasoned and successful show rider get from attending such a show?
		
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To take out a young horse 
To give a low pressure outing to a higher level horse .
To compete older problem horses who they want to get back on track .
Or just because they want to go why should someone care what others think about their motivation if the horses is eligible for the class and the rider wants to go what does it matter .
Eventing you compete against very very good riders with backup and horse power most can't dream of all the time.
Yet you rarely hear people bleating on at BE in fact when ever splitting the sport into amateurs and pros has been discussed the 'bottom' has said clearly they don't want that .
Why ? I think in part the three phase nature of the sport makes you focus very much on your own performance as it's hard to get all three right in one day .


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## Nancykitt (28 July 2015)

OK, so pot-hunting is perfectly acceptable. 

I'm not good enough to compete at anything but the most basic level - but if the most basic level is open to absolutely everyone there's not much point in bothering as I'm going to be outclassed time after time. I clearly did the right thing by moving on to something else.

But as for 'taking out a young horse' or 'giving a low pressure outing to a higher level horse'  - I remember one local show where a well-known producer turned up with a young Welshie in the M&M novice (I hasten to add that I wasn't competing). The pony was badly behaved throughout, rearing, bucking and spinning, cantered on the wrong lead twice and was placed first in a large class. Cue numerous complaints and the judge responded to someone by saying 'I was put in a very difficult position here.' There was a lot of very bad feeling, crying, swearing, resigning, storming off -  and the poor organisers were tearing their hair out as their only aim was for everyone to have a good day out. 

Re. eventing - I still think that to event at any level you need to be pretty good. I don't think we can compare it to things like 'best figure of eight in trot' at a little local show where a young child on his/her first outing might be beaten by a much more experienced child who will then go on to do open showing classes. I think that this was the sort of thing that inspired this thread in the first place.


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## PaddyMonty (28 July 2015)

I think the real problem these days is the line between unaff and aff has ben very blurred.
Back when I stared competing aff SJ started at 1.20mtr, eventing was I think around intermediate level (was long time ago), dressage was a niche sport that never really got talked about.
Aff shows were everywhere. I can remember at least a dozen that used to happen locally, non of which now exist. 
Unaff SJ went up to around 1.05/1.10 (3'6" to 3'9") usually ending in a chase-me-Charlie which would normally have a final height of 5 foot or more. Standards were expected and I don't remember anyone just going for a nice day out. You went out to win even if you didn't stand a chance. It was possible to compete at your chosen level pretty much every weekend (except winter which was for hunting) without traveling more than 15 miles.

Fast forward to today. The cost of running a show has gone through the roof no matter what level and the number of shows is a fraction of what it used to be. Unaff SJ rarely goes above 1 mtr and often only has 3 or 4 competitors in the last class. Aff SJ starts at 70cm, eventing at 80cm and dressage you don't even have to demonstrate the 3 basic gaits anymore. People still want to go out to shows at weekends but the number available has reduced so far that often the aff competitor is forced to compete unaff unless they want a round trip of 80 miles or more. Organisers are chasing numbers to make the show profitable.
At the same time society has changed it's stance from competing being the reward for years of hard work to it being a right for all no matter what level of effort they are prepared to put in.
When two worlds collide there is often conflict as a result.


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## sasquatch (28 July 2015)

ester said:



			Well that would be easily resolved by the organiser putting a money limit on the classes as most wouldn't have got to fox without winning some. Though you must know some very odd people as I don't know anyone competing even disco and above let alone fox!! That would jump unaff 70cm, that is just bizarre.
		
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I'm in NI, so we have a slightly different system. 

The show itself is just a jumping league, not even a proper show! Baffles me too, but I guess some people are after the rosettes. I do think, for the kids at least, they're encouraged by parents. I can understand wanting to get out jumping between shows, but don't see what's to gain by jumping all classes, or at a height that's much lower than you'd normally jump.


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## Goldenstar (28 July 2015)

Nancykitt said:



			OK, so pot-hunting is perfectly acceptable. 

I'm not good enough to compete at anything but the most basic level - but if the most basic level is open to absolutely everyone there's not much point in bothering as I'm going to be outclassed time after time. I clearly did the right thing by moving on to something else.

But as for 'taking out a young horse' or 'giving a low pressure outing to a higher level horse'  - I remember one local show where a well-known producer turned up with a young Welshie in the M&M novice (I hasten to add that I wasn't competing). The pony was badly behaved throughout, rearing, bucking and spinning, cantered on the wrong lead twice and was placed first in a large class. Cue numerous complaints and the judge responded to someone by saying 'I was put in a very difficult position here.' There was a lot of very bad feeling, crying, swearing, resigning, storming off -  and the poor organisers were tearing their hair out as their only aim was for everyone to have a good day out. 

Re. eventing - I still think that to event at any level you need to be pretty good. I don't think we can compare it to things like 'best figure of eight in trot' at a little local show where a young child on his/her first outing might be beaten by a much more experienced child who will then go on to do open showing classes. I think that this was the sort of thing that inspired this thread in the first place.
		
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Your showing example apples only to showing which I hate with a passion so large I won't comment on it , and also not interested in the child side of things .
But where do you expect these good riders take their horses to compete for training ?
They give revenue to the shows and watching them ought to encourage others to up their game .


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## huskydamage (28 July 2015)

pot hunting - lol great phrasing. 

It's happened to me as a kid and I 'happened' to others lol. 

In the words of a friend of mine re: is this unfair to other people in the class- 'oh well they'll have to get better then wont they!'

You can't 'steal a rosette' . If there's no restrictions on the class anyone can have a go. Local shows are always like that I think.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (28 July 2015)

I know exactly what you mean. About a year ago, my little sister entered a first ridden class, and was put at the bottom of the line, despite being the only true first ridden rider (it is for novices, right?!). Both she & her pony her beautifully turned out, her pony did a lovely little show, but no, the 12 year olds in double bridles who were waaayyy more advanced than first ridden won. My little sister, when very young, has also been to lead rein classes, again, far older girls, winning, and then going and doing intermediate classes OFF the  lead rein - what?! That's why I'm put off showing, far too many pot hunters, even more than other disciplines.


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## siennamum (28 July 2015)

I think eventing the tables can actually be turned. The Badminton winning  rider takes a green horse, or a box full to compete at 90/100 & gets roundly beaten by the one horse owning amateur who has plenty of experience at that level (on a cob, in 2nd hand gear in my case). Am I pothunting in that instance!!!! Do they care (probably not haha).


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## siennamum (28 July 2015)

EquiEquestrian556 said:



			I know exactly what you mean. About a year ago, my little sister entered a first ridden class, and was put at the bottom of the line, despite being the only true first ridden rider (it is for novices, right?!). Both she & her pony her beautifully turned out, her pony did a lovely little show, but no, the 12 year olds in double bridles who were waaayyy more advanced than first ridden won. My little sister, when very young, has also been to lead rein classes, again, far older girls, winning, and then going and doing intermediate classes OFF the  lead rein - what?! That's why I'm put off showing, far too many pot hunters, even more than other disciplines.
		
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But first ridden is not for novices. This children should have been eliminated if they were in double bridles, the class - like lead rein is all about the safety, suitability and conformation of the pony (and to a degree about the partnership as a whole)


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## Nancykitt (28 July 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Your showing example apples only to showing which I hate with a passion so large I won't comment on it , and also not interested in the child side of things .
But where do you expect these good riders take their horses to compete for training ?
They give revenue to the shows and watching them ought to encourage others to up their game .
		
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I'm not sure  - but I do know that the 'child side of things' is very important to some people and indeed there are some tiny local shows here who very much target getting young children into showing. It's in everyone's interests to have lots of people getting involved but some will no doubt be discouraged if they are constantly 'outclassed'. For every person who is thinking 'This has really encouraged me to up my game' there may be one thinking 'This is a waste of time, I may as well not bother'. And some will never have the resources to obtain the top-class animals seen on the circuit, even though they may have the ability to ride them well.
My experience suggests that there's lots of reasons for people to hate showing, but it's still very popular so there is clearly some appeal there.

People compete for different reasons. My only rosettes have been for 'wrinklies' equitation' and 'handy horse', but for me this represented a major achievement. For others, these things would be laughable. That's probably why I get the satisfaction from hunting; it's very much about me aiming to be a better rider than I was last week. Sometimes I succeed and sometimes I don't, but no-one puts me down or humiliates me for trying. At the end of the season my husband was voted 'Most improved rider', which I think meant more to him than a year's worth of rosettes. 

Perhaps some of the people who are dissatisfied with showing could look at other options where pot-hunting isn't a thing?


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## EquiEquestrian556 (28 July 2015)

siennamum said:



			But first ridden is not for novices. This children should have been eliminated if they were in double bridles, the class - like lead rein is all about the safety, suitability and conformation of the pony (and to a degree about the partnership as a whole)
		
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I realise it's not for true novices, more inexperienced yet competent young riders. The pony she was on was the safest of them all (the higher placed ones were spooking & bucking at points), and she had excellent conformation.


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## conniegirl (28 July 2015)

EquiEquestrian556 said:



			I know exactly what you mean. About a year ago, my little sister entered a first ridden class, and was put at the bottom of the line, despite being the only true first ridden rider (it is for novices, right?!). Both she & her pony her beautifully turned out, her pony did a lovely little show, but no, the 12 year olds in double bridles who were waaayyy more advanced than first ridden won. My little sister, when very young, has also been to lead rein classes, again, far older girls, winning, and then going and doing intermediate classes OFF the  lead rein - what?! That's why I'm put off showing, far too many pot hunters, even more than other disciplines.
		
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So because you dont understand the rules that automaticly makes those that do pot hunters?

First ridden is to find a pony suitable to take a child off leadrein, it is not a class for novice riders though there is an age limit on it. If that suitable pony happens to be ridden by a very good rider who can show the pony off to the best and the pony is the correct type, has manners to burn and goes correctly then it should win and it is fully within the rules.
If you want something judged on the rider alone then go for an equitation class.


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## ester (28 July 2015)

Nancykitt said:



			OK, so pot-hunting is perfectly acceptable. 

I'm not good enough to compete at anything but the most basic level - but if the most basic level is open to absolutely everyone there's not much point in bothering as I'm going to be outclassed time after time. I clearly did the right thing by moving on to something else.

But as for 'taking out a young horse' or 'giving a low pressure outing to a higher level horse'  - I remember one local show where a well-known producer turned up with a young Welshie in the M&M novice (I hasten to add that I wasn't competing). The pony was badly behaved throughout, rearing, bucking and spinning, cantered on the wrong lead twice and was placed first in a large class. Cue numerous complaints and the judge responded to someone by saying 'I was put in a very difficult position here.' There was a lot of very bad feeling, crying, swearing, resigning, storming off -  and the poor organisers were tearing their hair out as their only aim was for everyone to have a good day out. 

Re. eventing - I still think that to event at any level you need to be pretty good. I don't think we can compare it to things like 'best figure of eight in trot' at a little local show where a young child on his/her first outing might be beaten by a much more experienced child who will then go on to do open showing classes. I think that this was the sort of thing that inspired this thread in the first place.
		
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Bad judging is different to pot hunting though, I wouldn't think they went to win if they thought it would be that badly behaved and it was clearly young and a novice so in the right class.


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## Nancykitt (28 July 2015)

conniegirl said:



			So because you dont understand the rules that automaticly makes those that do pot hunters?

First ridden is to find a pony suitable to take a child off leadrein, it is not a class for novice riders though there is an age limit on it. If that suitable pony happens to be ridden by a very good rider who can show the pony off to the best and the pony is the correct type, has manners to burn and goes correctly then it should win and it is fully within the rules.
If you want something judged on the rider alone then go for an equitation class.
		
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But it seems that the higher placed ponies did not have manners to burn. I think that's the sort of thing that gets people down. 

At some local shows, things don't work both ways. So, for instance, a very successful show rider will wipe the board and the general attitude is that the others should be encouraged to up their game. But in the same shows I've seen equitation competitors in pelhams when the rules state 'snaffles only', enormous maxi-cobs in the 'show cob max 15.1' class and ponies in novice classes who are known not to be novices but the owners basically lie. It seems that anything goes, really.


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## Nancykitt (28 July 2015)

ester said:



			Bad judging is different to pot hunting though, I wouldn't think they went to win if they thought it would be that badly behaved and it was clearly young and a novice so in the right class.
		
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It was certainly bad judging but there were a lot of politics involved...and the rider in question does not go anywhere without the intention of coming away with 1st. The way she was celebrating you'd have thought she'd won at HOYS - which only served to wind up the other competitors even more!
I don't know how it's possible to avoid this sort of thing but I did notice that the organisers put something on the programme asking people to 'enter a class in the spirit in which it is intended'. I don't think it would have stopped this particular competitor though.


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## minesadouble (28 July 2015)

Bad judging is indeed totally different to pot hunting. At our show we have this season introduced one ridden class and one in hand class only open to those who have hacked or led their horse to the show in order to encourage the local riders. However believe me we appreciate EVERY entry no matter what level. Without good entries we could not run. Our shows cost over £1,000.00 to put on, with rosette bills, portaloo, insurance, first aid, travel expenses for judges, judges & stewards lunches and gifts.
We charge £8 per class or £6 for those entering 4+ classes. If we get bad weather conditions we may struggle to break even. We don't want to deter ANYONE from entering - low entries would prevent us from running any more shows. Speaking as a show organiser it is very disheartening to hear whinges about judging etc. especially when they are often unwarranted.
If you are going to show you have to accept that you will have good days and bad days, not every judge will love your horse and if you can't deal with that then maybe showing is not for you.


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## Nancykitt (28 July 2015)

Minesadouble, I applaud you for putting on the classes for truly local riders!
And I do get what you're saying, really I do. But you must admit that some of the stories here aren't great. The people I felt most sorry for in my story re. the novice Welshie were the show organisers. 
I have acknowledged that showing isn't for me...in a way, it's a pity because I would love to support my local riding club and to me it's as much about bringing young people into the fold as anything else. But I'm sure that the local RCs can do without people like me!


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## spottybotty (28 July 2015)

On to judge bashing now!   There is a total misconception about showing on this thread. I judge at my local Riding club shows, Pony club Open show and Riding school show. I get asked back time and time again. I tend to get the Kids ring and try and encourage them as much as I can. Those that put effort in  are rewarded. Perhaps some of the complainers could volunteer to steward at their local riding club and spend a day with the Judge and learn what showing is really all about.


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## Nancykitt (28 July 2015)

Just to clarify, Spottybotty, my story was more to do with pot-hunting than 'bad judging'; that particular judge has a good reputation. The point was that he was, indeed, put into a very difficult position when the producer entered the class. 

There are excellent judges and there's bound to be a few bad judges. 

Another story - a few years ago one of the judges at a local show couldn't make it and they got someone in at the last minute who worked at the feed merchants and had never judged before. She put the very flashy horse and successful rider second to an ordinary looking pony who had done a nice show. Cue much swearing and shouting from the 2nd placed rider about how the judge clearly didn't know a thing! All onlookers were totally bemused; what people remember about that day is not whether the judge was right or wrong but the dreadful behaviour of the woman with the blue rosette, whose attitude towards the judge was not acceptable at all.


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## conniegirl (28 July 2015)

Nancykitt said:



			Just to clarify, Spottybotty, my story was more to do with pot-hunting than 'bad judging'; that particular judge has a good reputation. The point was that he was, indeed, put into a very difficult position when the producer entered the class. 

There are excellent judges and there's bound to be a few bad judges. 

Another story - a few years ago one of the judges at a local show couldn't make it and they got someone in at the last minute who worked at the feed merchants and had never judged before. She put the very flashy horse and successful rider second to an ordinary looking pony who had done a nice show. Cue much swearing and shouting from the 2nd placed rider about how the judge clearly didn't know a thing! All onlookers were totally bemused; what people remember about that day is not whether the judge was right or wrong but the dreadful behaviour of the woman with the blue rosette, whose attitude towards the judge was not acceptable at all.
		
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sorry but it still sounds like a crap judge. The judge was not put in an awkward position by anyone provided she judged what was in front of her not the face on top of the pony. If I were judging she would have been last no matter how well the horse was put together because I cannot stand ridden horses that do not have even basic manners and I dont pander to faces.
She put herself in the awkward position and consiquently ended up with bad feeling.


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## Nancykitt (28 July 2015)

I completely take your point, conniegirl; some people were saying that the producer would surely have understood that she didn't deserve to be placed. But apparently there is a long and complicated story behind it all. The whole thing was quite unpleasant and it's the sort of situation that no organiser of a local show would want.


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## WelshD (28 July 2015)

conniegirl said:



			sorry but it still sounds like a crap judge. The judge was not put in an awkward position by anyone provided she judged what was in front of her not the face on top of the pony. If I were judging she would have been last no matter how well the horse was put together because I cannot stand ridden horses that do not have even basic manners and I dont pander to faces.
She put herself in the awkward position and consiquently ended up with bad feeling.
		
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To be fair though we don't know anything about the rest of the class - for all we know the Welshie may have been streets ahead of the others even with the manners (and it WAS a novice class) taken in to account. Having seen patchy 'Dartmoor' ponies, jumping ponies with scarred legs, stargazers with ewe necks, ponies with collapsed crests and lame ponies in the M&M classes locally all with their owners no doubt absolutely assured of their right to be in the class it does make you wonder what the rest of the line up was like!


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## Nancykitt (28 July 2015)

WelshD said:



			To be fair though we don't know anything about the rest of the class - for all we know the Welshie may have been streets ahead of the others even with the manners (and it WAS a novice class) taken in to account. Having seen patchy 'Dartmoor' ponies, jumping ponies with scarred legs, stargazers with ewe necks, ponies with collapsed crests and lame ponies in the M&M classes locally all with their owners no doubt absolutely assured of their right to be in the class it does make you wonder what the rest of the line up was like!
		
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I'm not going to pretend to know a great deal but there were certainly some nice ponies there who behaved extremely well. A few seemed unsettled by the poor behaviour of the 'winner', actually.


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## WelshD (28 July 2015)

Nancykitt said:



			I'm not going to pretend to know a great deal but there were certainly some nice ponies there who behaved extremely well. A few seemed unsettled by the poor behaviour of the 'winner', actually.
		
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But the judge in most cases WOULD know a great deal. We need to be able to trust their judgement

A nice pony isn't necessarily one that is true to type and correctly presented

the judge must have known it may not be a popular winner but do they put their knowledge and experience aside and choose a lesser pony to win?


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## ester (28 July 2015)

conniegirl said:



			sorry but it still sounds like a crap judge. The judge was not put in an awkward position by anyone provided she judged what was in front of her not the face on top of the pony. If I were judging she would have been last no matter how well the horse was put together because I cannot stand ridden horses that do not have even basic manners and I dont pander to faces.
She put herself in the awkward position and consiquently ended up with bad feeling.
		
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I imagine she would have been sent out in many rings.


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## MagicMelon (28 July 2015)

Thing is, surely its up to the organisers to correctly describe each class. If they had put something like "for riders in their first season competing" or "not to have been placed 1st - 3rd in a blah blah class" then this girl probably wouldn't have entered, if they leave it open to anyone then of course you end up with people going in for these sorts of classes.  

I also find it a bit weird some of you have said you think its weird that some people who are out winning regularly shouldn't be competing at local level, why not?  They're probably doing it purely for fun!  I show for fun (it's not really my thing but its something different), if I won every time I went out (I wish!) then I would still continue to go to the same shows because I wouldn't want to travel hours to big proper shows and spend a fortune on it, I don't think people should be slated for that. Also even the best horses who will go on to be HOYS Champions need to start somewhere... and I swear some of them are just born stunning and beautifully schooled 

Anyway, at the end of the day we all know judges only choose 'the name' so it doesn't matter who else is in the class, he he


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## MagicMelon (28 July 2015)

LittleRooketRider said:



			It's not just young kiddie classes... I took one of our babies to a local show to do a novice workers - so 2ft/2ft3 was won by a girl I presumed was on a youngster or just happy at that height who I then saw competing in the open workers - 3ft/3ft3!
		
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Just because the horse can jump the height, doesn't mean it can make it look good!  If it was good at the 3ft height (and therefore did well prior) then surely it wouldn't have been eligible to enter the little class?  In my area, a novice WH class states "not to have been placed 1st - 3rd more than three times in any WH class" or something along those lines.


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## ozpoz (28 July 2015)

Nancykitt - "crying,swearing and storming off"? over a placing at a little show is completely ridiculous. People should concentrate on the contents of their picnic basket, and stop being so stupid. It is a little show, not some major life changing event. Who gives a toss if the judge doesn't like your horse? It is only an opinion, on the day.

This is mad.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (28 July 2015)

conniegirl said:



			So because you dont understand the rules that automaticly makes those that do pot hunters?

First ridden is to find a pony suitable to take a child off leadrein, it is not a class for novice riders though there is an age limit on it. If that suitable pony happens to be ridden by a very good rider who can show the pony off to the best and the pony is the correct type, has manners to burn and goes correctly then it should win and it is fully within the rules.
If you want something judged on the rider alone then go for an equitation class.
		
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The ponies didn't go correctly, about a quarter of them were cantering on the wrong leg, (the winner included), with the riders towards the lower end of the row trotting on the wrong diagonal and the ponies were extremely overbent. Manners to burn - no, if I'm correct, bucking & spooking is not safe or normally acceptable behavior.


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## Nancykitt (28 July 2015)

ozpoz said:



			Nancykitt - "crying,swearing and storming off"? over a placing at a little show is completely ridiculous. People should concentrate on the contents of their picnic basket, and stop being so stupid. It is a little show, not some major life changing event. Who gives a toss if the judge doesn't like your horse? It is only an opinion, on the day.

This is mad.
		
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I agree with you. And I was just a spectator. I do think that people take it all too seriously at times. 
But perhaps that's where some of the problems lie. We've got people who shouldn't be taking it too seriously competing against people who are taking it all very seriously indeed. 
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be the only one who's witnessed this sort of behaviour at local shows. And there have been plenty of 'pony club mothers' threads on here in the past. The behaviour of some people does leave a lot to be desired.


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## ester (28 July 2015)

if no one took it seriously no one would need to get uptight about being beaten by whoever on whatever 

I don't think you can declare anyone a pot hunter if they are on badly behaved ponies/don't get the right leg, and in not sure diagonals usually matter showing! Judge is looking at the horse, even dressage their can be reasons for rising 'wrong'.


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## Nancykitt (28 July 2015)

ester said:



			I don't think you can declare anyone a pot hunter if they are on badly behaved ponies/don't get the right leg, and in not sure diagonals usually matter showing! Judge is looking at the horse, even dressage their can be reasons for rising 'wrong'.
		
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I may have been misled, but I thought that manners were really important in showing? My daughter did some ridden showing at local level with our cob who rarely won because he had a few 'moments' every now and again (although he always did well in hand). On more than one occasion she was told that he was a really good stamp of a cob but was let down because of his lapse in manners at times, which we fully accepted. 

Is it really just about the horse's conformation rather than its way of going and/or manners? Or does it depend on the judge? I've never done an actual showing class myself so I'm pretty clueless about this sort of thing.


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## ester (28 July 2015)

You misunderstand me, manners are very important, that is why the kids that Equi is talking about surely aren't pot hunters if they aren't on push button well behaved ponies.


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## peaceandquiet1 (28 July 2015)

We were at a show at the weekend with a novice pony at her second show. Pony is not established in canter and is not ready for a group canter so entered the only walk/trot class. Someone challenged the judge saying pony didn't look like a novice but judge asked for info before class went ahead and pony won. Pony may look very beautiful and showy but she is still a novice. We only went for that class. We may have looked like pot hunters because the pony is a true show type, but we were not. In contrast, at a previous show, the overall supreme was an ex Hoys winner-at a riding club show.


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## Ddraig_wen (29 July 2015)

There's so many rosette hunters locally to us here. Ponies and horses that have competed nationally, are owned by producers, been to hoys, produced professionally etc and they turn up to the local riding club shows. Its thoroughly disheartening to spend hours bathing and plaiting to get there and find you've got two horses with rihs tickets in the class plus several other produced horses.       The kids classes are even worse, leadreins that enter the first ridden moments later, or swap jockies between ponies both of which have been in the leadrein. etc etc


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## fatpiggy (29 July 2015)

horsemadmum1 said:



			We were at a show at the weekend with a novice pony at her second show. Pony is not established in canter and is not ready for a group canter so entered the only walk/trot class. Someone challenged the judge saying pony didn't look like a novice but judge asked for info before class went ahead and pony won. Pony may look very beautiful and showy but she is still a novice. We only went for that class. We may have looked like pot hunters because the pony is a true show type, but we were not. In contrast, at a previous show, the overall supreme was an ex Hoys winner-at a riding club show.
		
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The trouble is that there are so many people who think they know it all but can't see the characteristics of a true novice horse- as you say unbalanced or not confident in canter.  All they see is the pretty pony and good turn-out and condemn them on the spot.


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## daisy123 (29 July 2015)

Not fair is it? I went in walk on trot then onto ridden novice because it was my girls first ridden show and I wanted to see how well she went before entering her into novice. We took 2nd place and a young girl took 1st which I was very happy about. I will not be entering walk/trot again though as we are past that stage now! Think it needs clamping down on to give others a fair chance!


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## peaceandquiet1 (29 July 2015)

fatpiggy in the championship her novice status was confirmed to onlookers when she spooked badly at a rider falling off in the next ring as they passed each other-it was obvious then to all that she was inexperienced.


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## lakesidedreamer (5 August 2015)

Jo1987 said:



			Yes, at my local show there is a lady who enters and wins every class she can with her lovely cob, who really should be at a much higher level now - she has been doing this for 10+ years! How boring. 
I remember a few years ago as a 14 year old entering the coloured class and coming third behind her and a professional producer on a spotted horse. Both lovely horses of course, but definitely above local show level.  
Put me right off and I haven't entered another showing class since!
		
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haha - oh it sounds like you might be local to me - local woman who rides her *DUBLIN* horse in walk trot classes against riding school kids! It's a joke.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (5 August 2015)

mastermax said:



			I can see this from both points of view but here is my case for opinion. I aquired a very pretty coloured horse quite a few months ago that had never been showing and had always evented. He had been due to be put down for reasons I wont go into but suffice to say I now have a beautiful, horse of lifetime that is fit, well and sound after a lot of blood, sweat, tears and expense.
We decided to take him in hand showing to our local show as due to my illness (I have Lupus, RA and kidney disease) I didnt feel ready to ride him in the class. He won the coloured, got placed in the other two but went on to win in hand champion.  We were delighted.
A couple of weeks later we took him to the same venue but for an affliated BSPA show ad again he won in hand champion beating a top producer.
Yesterday he went back to the show and he won in hand champion and a friend of mine (young girl just left school so not a producer) rode him in two ridden classes, he won both of those and went on to win ridden champion. Very few people turned up to the show due to the previous days weather so there wasnt a huge amount of competition.
My dilema now is when I feel ready to ride him in a show and his canter is more balanced do I not go back to that lovely, small show for fear people will think I am a pot hunter or do I overface myself at bigger shows that the organisers arnt aware of my disabilities? Basically do I not go where I'm comfortable just because my pretty horse has won there before. I dont want to take him back as would hate people to think I was a rosette stealer.
		
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Just my opinion but you know the horse is better than that level, it's consistently winning there.  If you don't feel confident to move up a level then go back there where you feel comfortable but to enter HC would be the decent thing to do.  It was your choice to enter him in hand and with another rider, had you waited until you felt confident to ride him you could have experienced those wins under saddle yourself.

I do think there is a lot of pot hunting about and it's bad sportsmanship in my eyes.  There are good riders and well schooled horses, combinations who have never competed and are therefore eligible for the rules of even local shows stating "not to have won this class before" and I've no problem with such people entering, but once you're regularly being placed and winning you should move on up IMO.  

I think unaffiliated dressage shows need more rules too, with all the people who won't go above prelim level.  OK they might meet the rules of the class but it's still bad sportsmanship.  If you're going for a fun day out, as warm up for a later class, for ring experience for the horse etc and you know you are capable of working at a level above then enter HC.  There's just no need for people to be pot hunters. It's selfish.

I was on a yard with a girl whose parents had bought her a 10k dressage horse that had been professionally produced.  She was entering it in the local shows with everyone else on their ponies bought from the local dealer (who got them 2wks ago from the sale before breaking and selling them) or from the local riding school.  This girls horse was in a different league, used to win everything, getting lots of admiration just for existing and the girl lapped up the attention.  Why buy a 10k horse, keep it on a down at heel livery yard and never take it out to a decent level of competition?  Maybe there was no money left after buying the horse but entering all the local shows really wasn't fair on the other competitors whose horses, with all the training in the world, would never rival hers.

I really think local low level "fun" shows should be just that - fun.  For average riders and their horses/ponies.  Not for serious competitive people, who already have a system of showing associations and affiliated dressage/jumping classes set up for them.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (5 August 2015)

conniegirl said:



			Why should they have to go HC? they pay the same money as everyone else and sometimes people are comfortable doing what they are doing and enjoy it. sometimes they dont want to try something new, they may not jump, they may not want to go fast (games) they may not feel comfortable going any higher and why should they have to?
Personaly I've climbed snowdon 5 times in the last year, why? because I enjoy the walk. not because its a challenge or difficult but because I can have a lovely walk, a natter with friends and enjoy the view from the top. so tell me why should I go climb some other mountain?
		
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It's different because there's no sport involved in you going to walk up a mountain.  It's not a competition, by walking up the mountain you're not entering anything, you're not dashing the hopes of those new to competing before they've had a chance to compete anywhere ever.  If it was a mountain walking competition and you were a seasoned mountain walker and entering a novice mountain walk, knowing you'd be better at it than most who would be there, I'd say shame on you.


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## Illusion100 (5 August 2015)

Been watching this thread for a while now and I think that if you have a horse that has done very well at a lower level but rider/handler doesn't want to move up, then they should enter H/C, as after all they have nothing to prove but can still enter at the level they are happy to do.

When I finally get my horse out and about he will most likely be 6, schooling higher at home than the unaffiliated competitions I will first enter him into and of course logically, we shall do well (my head is in hysterics laughing at me here). I want him to find venturing out and competing enjoyable as he should hopefully find he has the confidence to do the more basic work easily while absorbing the environment and therefore have a great time.

If he did fab (there goes the laughter in my head again) but I don't feel he's ready to move up just yet, then I would be happy to go H/C until that time.

So most likely at this 1st comp, he will not be the age/level of a very novice horse but it will be his first time out nonetheless whether or not it looks like it. Some will probably accuse me of being a rosette stealer....


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