# Grafenstolz- front limb confirmtation



## spinner1 (28 February 2014)

Hello all - I am after some advice if possible - I am looking at a four year old mare by grafenstolz - her front feet are not a pair with one markedly more upright. She hasn't done much work at this stage but is sound after flexion and on small circles etc. I have heard anecdotedly that a few Graf offspring had this issue - does anyone know if this is correct and/ or have anything with similar issues that has gone on to work with minimal issues? Any help much appreciated!


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## DonkeyClub (1 March 2014)

No idea but the feet always mirror what is going on in the body!


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## Alec Swan (1 March 2014)

Firstly I suppose that you've watched her move,  and you're happy that her movement isn't affected.  Dependent upon the value of the filly and the possible travel costs to a competent vet,  I'd ask for a full vetting.  Though it isn't cheap,  you want the whole nine yards.

There are plenty of very good horses about with odd feet,  but the questions would be "How odd are they,  and will the problem be likely to effect her going"?  You might also consider why as a 4yo she's being offered for sale,  and if it's the breeder selling her,  then why now?

There have been mutterings regarding Graf,  but they could be because of his owner's rather caustic approach to life,  rather than the horse himself.  Have you researched the filly's dam line,  to see if the problem comes from the female side?

I'd suggest that research may be the way forward!

Alec.


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## TheMule (1 March 2014)

I'd be interested in what her damline is.
Odd front feet can certainly be a genetic trait, there is one very well known eventing line which throws mismatched front feet. It has never put me off buying a horse which I like in other rspects


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## popsdosh (1 March 2014)

TheMule said:



			I'd be interested in what her damline is.
Odd front feet can certainly be a genetic trait, there is one very well known eventing line which throws mismatched front feet. It has never put me off buying a horse which I like in other rspects
		
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In general I would say the opposite dont touch with bargepole if it is very obvious.There are more than a few question marks over Graf offspring building up so be cautious!


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## Rollin (2 March 2014)

Two of my foals have had slightly different angles on their front feet, dealt with by correct trimming during the first year.

I was not aware of it being a genetic trait, although many years ago I read an article, I think by Susan George which said Arabians often have odd feet but it does not affect performance.

If front feet are mismatched what are the long term prospects for the horse?


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## LilMissy (3 March 2014)

I thought there was a recent article in H&H that said horses with markedly different front feet were something like 75% more likely to leave ridden work early?


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## Rollin (3 March 2014)

LilMissy said:



			I thought there was a recent article in H&H that said horses with markedly different front feet were something like 75% more likely to leave ridden work early?
		
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I would expect that to be the case, because over long term this must put strain on the fore limbs.  I don't have H&H any more - it took 3 weeks to cross the Channel!!! So I have not seen the article.

Interestingly when my Shagya stallion was graded in France, the very strict vetting included measuring angles on both front feet.  I note that other stud books which are hot on x-rays, don't require this most basic test.

(He was one of 3 out of 13 forward who graded)


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## OUMA (5 March 2014)

I have two Graf offspring, one four (Master Imp/Criminal Law) and one three (Rubinstein) and neither one has issues with feet.  The 4yr old was BEF graded elite as a 3yr old and the 3yr old as foal - they have fabulous temperaments, easy to do, both broken and very quick to learn.  I see that Zeno das Gluck won class at Isleham last weekend.  The proof will be in the results of the offspring on the ground, so far very good.  So, I would ignore the gossiping about the graf unless it comes from breeders with graf foals.


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## Rollin (5 March 2014)

So if your own youngsters have good feet, it would suggest this is not genetic, at least from the sire line.

The OP was not gossip was it?  He/she had looked at a four year old with marked differences in front feet and asked for opinions from forum members.


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## OUMA (5 March 2014)

Rollin said:



			So if your own youngsters have good feet, it would suggest this is not genetic, at least from the sire line.

The OP was not gossip was it?  He/she had looked at a four year old with marked differences in front feet and asked for opinions from forum members.
		
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I was looking at the popsdosh observations


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## Rollin (5 March 2014)

OK  I did not understand that.


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## LilMissy (5 March 2014)

Ive seen the stallion at shows a few times and a few youngsters and havent seen any obvious issues with front limbs that I can remember! The youngster in thread could have inherited from the damline just as easily.


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## madmare22 (6 March 2014)

my graf has no leg/foot issues, he is very straight


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## Frumpoon (6 March 2014)

I have a really lush old boy who has two odd front feet, he's still sound at 14 after a lifetime of jumping 120cm plus


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## christine48 (7 March 2014)

OUMA said:



			I have two Graf offspring, one four (Master Imp/Criminal Law) and one three (Rubinstein) and neither one has issues with feet.  The 4yr old was BEF graded elite as a 3yr old and the 3yr old as foal - they have fabulous temperaments, easy to do, both broken and very quick to learn.  I see that Zeno das Gluck won class at Isleham last weekend.  The proof will be in the results of the offspring on the ground, so far very good.  So, I would ignore the gossiping about the graf unless it comes from breeders with graf foals.
		
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I would have liked to have seen more out competing and proving themselves by now. Rumour has it they aren't the easiest.


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## lori ann (7 March 2014)

We have a Graf four year old. He has very good feet and limbs. Was broken very easily and at the moment taking everything in his stride on the downside he does chew everything he can get his teeth into and you cannot leave anything in his reach !


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## Alec Swan (8 March 2014)

I've never made any secret of the fact that I think that just about everything about Grafenstolz,  is to be admired.  He has been very well promoted,  I think that he's a handsome creature,  I think that he has a jump,  and I think that his own record and viewed ability,  would be everything that I could ask for.  He's an amenable and rideable animal too,  from what I'm told.  

There is one small and nagging question though;  Graf's owner,  never a person to hide his light,  has made very little of the horse's progeny or their performance record,  and that,  considering that the horse is now rising 16,  rather surprises me.  there must be his progeny about which at 10 years of age,  or rising to that age,  are out there competing.  I care little for the opinions of judges,  and would prefer to rely upon verifiable and firm competition results.  

Grafenstolz has covered many top class mares,  and there will be some very well bred youngsters out there which will be at the 7 years of age,  stage,  at least.  Does anyone know where his stock are,  and how they're doing?

Alec.


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## oldywoldy (8 March 2014)

Well said Alec.  I am quite sure that if there were any successful progeny 'the owner' would be shouting it from the rooftops. There must be a lot of his stock in Europe but you do not hear about them either. It also amazes me that more is not made of Grafenstolz competition record as it was impressive. His stock that I have seen have been attractive individuals, some definitely sharp but do not know dams bloodlines of most of them and really wonder where his stock are? I also see that owner has gone to France with all of his stallions I would imagine he has nowhere left to go in the UK!


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## JandP (12 March 2014)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Graf's forelimb conformation, as any (non-biased) person who has met the horse and seen him up close will tell you.

Sadly, if a horse has something wrong with it, people jump on the sire, forgetting just how important the mare is.

The mutterings and rumours about Graf probably have more to do with the owner than the horse, which is a shame.  All the offspring I have seen have been stunning (and straight).  I suspect you will see quite a few of them coming through in the UK now, as he has been used for about 5 years in the UK by some pretty good event breeders.

Julia Hodkin of Future Sport Horses also has a licensed Graf son - Future Gravitas.  So he's not doing too badly


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## madmare22 (17 March 2014)

lol, mines eats everything too. He too is easy however and takes everything in his stride


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## Hurricanelady (17 March 2014)

I saw Future Gravitas at Hartpury stallion parade and he showed himself off fantastically for a stallion that had only been backed 7.5 weeks and at age 3.5, and a lovely personality up close as well.  He does also have a fabulous dam line.  I can't do any more breeding at present but if I could I'd definitely have one from him and another Future Illusion foal, I've been so pleased with my first one.



JandP said:



			There is absolutely nothing wrong with Graf's forelimb conformation, as any (non-biased) person who has met the horse and seen him up close will tell you.

Sadly, if a horse has something wrong with it, people jump on the sire, forgetting just how important the mare is.

The mutterings and rumours about Graf probably have more to do with the owner than the horse, which is a shame.  All the offspring I have seen have been stunning (and straight).  I suspect you will see quite a few of them coming through in the UK now, as he has been used for about 5 years in the UK by some pretty good event breeders.

Julia Hodkin of Future Sport Horses also has a licensed Graf son - Future Gravitas.  So he's not doing too badly 

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## OUMA (24 March 2014)

Hurricanelady said:



			I saw Future Gravitas at Hartpury stallion parade and he showed himself off fantastically for a stallion that had only been backed 7.5 weeks and at age 3.5, and a lovely personality up close as well.  He does also have a fabulous dam line.  I can't do any more breeding at present but if I could I'd definitely have one from him and another Future Illusion foal, I've been so pleased with my first one.
		
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Two Graf offspring are out eventing this year - one of them with Piggy French - Zeno das Gluck - scored 21 dressage at novice.  I think that the offspring are starting to show their class.


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## popsdosh (24 March 2014)

OUMA said:



			Two Graf offspring are out eventing this year - one of them with Piggy French - Zeno das Gluck - scored 21 dressage at novice.  I think that the offspring are starting to show their class.
		
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suspect its not that robust an individual as it missed nearly all the 2012 season and most of last season so may bear out peoples concerns!!
http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/events/results.aspx?horseid=94734
Would not say that record is classy for an 8yo.
Perhaps KR sees it differently.


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## lori ann (25 March 2014)

Zeno won BYEH as a five year old it is possible that PF is taking it slowly with him and not rushing him up the grades.

Grafenstolz is always getting knocked and like a lot of people believe it is possibly down to his owners reputation. Who I never had any issues with.  However I do not class myself as a breeder.


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## cundlegreen (25 March 2014)

popsdosh said:



			suspect its not that robust an individual as it missed nearly all the 2012 season and most of last season so may bear out peoples concerns!!
http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/events/results.aspx?horseid=94734
Would not say that record is classy for an 8yo.
Perhaps KR sees it differently.
		
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You can't say there's anything wrong with the horse's soundness this year. He's done three events in three weeks and been in the first two every time. Likely a late developer like a lot of warmbloods.


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## TheMule (25 March 2014)

cundlegreen said:



			You can't say there's anything wrong with the horse's soundness this year. He's done three events in three weeks and been in the first two every time. Likely a late developer like a lot of warmbloods.
		
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It's fair to question it though,,given number one important feature in an event horse is soundness, the OP refers to a potential soundness issue and this horse's record has large gaps in it....


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## popsdosh (25 March 2014)

cundlegreen said:



			You can't say there's anything wrong with the horse's soundness this year. He's done three events in three weeks and been in the first two every time. Likely a late developer like a lot of warmbloods.
		
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Yes but that is his usual thing if you notice quick succession runs and then huge gaps that is not normal for an event horse education. How many special 8yos started in BE100 this season. Whilst a friend of mines 7yo was coming 2nd in an OI taking several 3&4 star scalps


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## ihatework (25 March 2014)

cundlegreen said:



			You can't say there's anything wrong with the horse's soundness this year. He's done three events in three weeks and been in the first two every time. Likely a late developer like a lot of warmbloods.
		
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It's 8, ridden by PF, huge gaps in record and has 10 points.
Does this really fall under the definition of a promising classy young event horse?????


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