# Horse collapsing whilst being tacked- video



## ribena73 (9 July 2009)

I've posted a couple of times about my boy who has been collapsing whilst having the girth done up. My vet thought he had neurological symptoms and thought it was due to kissing spines or articular facet problems. We've just come back from three days at vets for bone scan and x rays and nothing conclusive has come out of it. So the plan is to do a bute trial for 10 days to see if it is pain related as then it should go away. Before we started the trial the vet wanted a video of the collapse, so I took one this morning on my phone. I've uploaded it to youtube and so would appreciate any thoughts on what might be going on.

Saddle OK, and this only happens at girthing/tightening girth, not happened whilst ridden.....

The url is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8Um_cIupDg


----------



## saddlesore (9 July 2009)

Gosh! Never seen anything like this before - what a distressing problem for you both  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I've certainly heard of horses collapsing when saddling as a result of being cold backed?


----------



## Eira (9 July 2009)

A friends horse used to do something (by all accounts) similar a couple of years ago (I never saw it but she has described it) and she went off for alot of test etc. Shall ask her tonight what they found. Strangely enough L treated her too 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Mare is ok now


----------



## Peacelily (9 July 2009)

has he always done it? 
does he do it when you tighten it also? 
might be a daft question - but he didn't learn it did he? (very silly suggesting but hey...differential diagnosis and all!)
He looks well so I guess you still work him?


----------



## scally (9 July 2009)

Girth Bind, have seen it before, the horse has loads of nerves behing their elbows some are very very sensitive and girthing up causes the nerves to go into overdrive.


----------



## Amymay (9 July 2009)

Is he collapsing though - or just getting down? (I don't mean 'just' to infer it is not a problem).


----------



## kerilli (9 July 2009)

hmm, doesn't look like the vids i've seen before where a horse collapsed on girth being tightened, those were narcolepsy i think, and looked as if the horse couldn't control its movements. 
your boy looks as if it is deliberate, a way to release pressure on the girth area maybe? i'd try girthing up very slowly, not tight at all to begin with, and i'd try one of the new Cair padded girths or similar. have you tried keeping girth looseish until you are on (if horse is trustworthy and not a bucker) and then tightening it a hole at a time?


----------



## Amymay (9 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 might be a daft question - but he didn't learn it did he? (very silly suggesting but hey...differential diagnosis and all!) 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Exactly the same question crossed my mind too.


----------



## ribena73 (9 July 2009)

The "collapse" in this video is milder than what he has done before- in the past his legs wobble (and he stays in one place) and then he drops to the floor- he's also gone bum first in the past (like a dog sitting), but this time he'd just dropped to his knees. The video doesn't show it clearly but the movements just prior to him going down are wobbly leg movements


----------



## charlie55 (9 July 2009)

This happens to a horse up our yard, and it looks exactly the same, the horse at our yard isnt collapsing (i dont think yours is either), he is doing it on purpose. He does it to stretch, if we do the girth up and pull each front leg out as far as we can straight after we have done the girth up, he doesnt do it. Maybe worth a try for your one??


----------



## ribena73 (9 July 2009)

He's only started to do it over the past few weeks, and it's becoming more consistent now. The first few times did seem to be involuntary, this time did look a bit like to "chose" to lie down, but then if he is in pain I guess that's not unlikely? As for doing the girth up slowly, this is the second half of the video made this morning. He had the saddle on, done up loosely for a few minutes, and we were about to give up on him doing it, then I thought I've have one last go at hoiking up his girth and down he went. 

Interesting Kerrili that you mentioned narcolepsy- this is one of the possibilities the vet is thinking about. From how he moves about just before he goes down in this video I'm not convinced though....
Yes I still work him (lunge now though until we come to the bottom of this), I've worked hard to get him into this shape so don't want him to lose it!


----------



## charlie55 (9 July 2009)

Have you tryed doing the girth up very slowly and walking him, then do it up some more etc? 

Or have you tryed doing it in a school? Does he do this just in his stable or anywhere?


----------



## bailey14 (9 July 2009)

Like Kerilli mentioned in her post I really think your horse is suffering from Narcolepsy.  As you can see from reading the link attached horses tend to fall onto their knees and narcolepsy can happen around everyday things like grooming or tacking up.  Has your vet mentioned narcolepsy to you previously?  If you read all the symptoms in the article you may have more of an idea if that sounds like your horse.  It might be worth mentioning to your vet especially if your horse could be one of the breeds mentioned.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/horsecare/1370/103928.html


----------



## Amymay (9 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
From how he moves about just before he goes down in this video I'm not convinced though....  

[/ QUOTE ] 

Is he 'blank' or just shifting his weight.  I did notice that when he first moved he slightly hopped(???)


----------



## ribena73 (9 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
This happens to a horse up our yard, and it looks exactly the same, the horse at our yard isnt collapsing (i dont think yours is either), he is doing it on purpose. He does it to stretch, if we do the girth up and pull each front leg out as far as we can straight after we have done the girth up, he doesnt do it. Maybe worth a try for your one?? 

[/ QUOTE ]

That's interesting- the only time he's not done it recently is when I've tacked him up after lunging him- I guess he's stretched himself then? Do you do the girth up tight or just loose, then stretch, then tighten?  He has built up a lot of muscle the past few months since i've had him, especially across his back, as he's been doing a lot more work, do you think that he maybe needs a bit of a stretch to loosen up across his back?


----------



## charlie55 (9 July 2009)

We posted at the same time, soz. Keep us informed with him please x


----------



## ribena73 (9 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

Is he 'blank' or just shifting his weight.  I did notice that when he first moved he slightly hopped(???) 

[/ QUOTE ]

It's difficult to describe, it wasn't normal movement, he kind of wobbled about!


----------



## ribena73 (9 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Or have you tryed doing it in a school? Does he do this just in his stable or anywhere? 

[/ QUOTE ]

On only been doing it in the stable, not tried anywhere else. After the bute trial, if there is improvement the next step I think is to try tacking him up in different environments to see is he is simply "falling asleep".  At the moment I think we want to eliminate one thing at a time, pain being the easiest/ most obvious I guess?


----------



## Amymay (9 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Is he 'blank' or just shifting his weight.  I did notice that when he first moved he slightly hopped(???) 

[/ QUOTE ]

It's difficult to describe, it wasn't normal movement, he kind of wobbled about! 

[/ QUOTE ]

We have the same vet don't we??? Bushy's???  I'm seeing Lee tonight.


Back to topic.   I never tighten a girth fully up - just enough to be able to get on safely - then walk the horse, then tighten.....

Not sure if this is any help at all.


----------



## charlie55 (9 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This happens to a horse up our yard, and it looks exactly the same, the horse at our yard isnt collapsing (i dont think yours is either), he is doing it on purpose. He does it to stretch, if we do the girth up and pull each front leg out as far as we can straight after we have done the girth up, he doesnt do it. Maybe worth a try for your one?? 

[/ QUOTE ]

That's interesting- the only time he's not done it recently is when I've tacked him up after lunging him- I guess he's stretched himself then? Do you do the girth up tight or just loose, then stretch, then tighten?  He has built up a lot of muscle the past few months since i've had him, especially across his back, as he's been doing a lot more work, do you think that he maybe needs a bit of a stretch to loosen up across his back? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Step by step:

I groom him as normal, Put on the saddlecloth and saddle and leave it for a min (let the pad warm his back up abit), put on his bridle and boots, then do the girth as i would a normal horse, then straight away go to the front and stretch each leg out, as far as i can, this seems to stretch behind the girth and across his back and he doesnt fall down. Its defintley worth a try with your boy....

This horse has done this since he was a youngster, he is now 22 and still in full work (dressage) doing this exercise with him is the only thing that stops him falling. Hope this helps x


----------



## ribena73 (9 July 2009)

Amymay- yes we have the same vet- Lee's x rayed him and done the tests at home, Alex took over for his few days in horsepital. I've emailed her the video so she can see, and I think she'll be showing the other vets in the practice too so Lee may well have seen it too by the time he gets to you tonight!

Charlie55- I will try the slowly slowly method followed by the stretch to see if it makes any difference, fingers crossed its the same thing!

SO glad I spent all morning trying to work out how to get video off my phone and onto youtube, thanks for the advice guys, will keep you posted....


----------



## Dopeonarope (9 July 2009)

... stretch two front legs and maybe use a comfy girth sleve?


----------



## ester (9 July 2009)

I knew a thoroughbred who did something very similar twice, and knew it as girth bind due to the nerves as scally said. Horse was purchased a sheepskin girth sleeve and an elasticated leather girth that could be done up very loosely to start and tightened slowly and never had the problem again.


----------



## Nando (9 July 2009)

Would tend to agree with the girth bind. Cold back (or similar) often causes a much more violent reaction but your boy seems quite calm (and almost calculated) about the whole thing. 

Please don't take this the wrong way and I am in no way having a go but you seem to do the girth up very quickly and this may be exacerbating the underlying problem.The area around the girth is incredibly sensitive and even the most placid horses don't like girths being tightened very quickly. Imagine if someone put a belt round your stomach and suddenly pulled it very tight....

I would try taking your boy back to basics to try and break the mental cycle, this can be easily done when you are grooming etc - start with playing around with an elastic surcingle and saddle pad, mimics the saddle and girth but on a much milder scale, maybe give him a quick lunge. Then saddle with surcingle, gently going up a hole and then go back to girthing up properly again. 

If nec, buy a longer (flexible/padded) girth and really take your time doing it up one hole at a time. If you have a sand school it may also be worth leading him round whilst you do the girth up as it can sometimes provide a good distraction-he may now be associating his stable with the behaviour he is exhibiting -although I appreciate exactly why you are tacking up in stable when he goes down like that!


----------



## oofadoofa (9 July 2009)

I had a mare that used to do a very similar thing, although it was her back end that went down and she'd almost sit down.  I'm not sure what started it off, but she almost got into a habit of doing it and it was actually made worse by trying to pull her leg out to stretch the girth area.  As Kerilli has said, I used to place the saddle on do the girth up very loosely (so you could see daylight) first of all.  Then I would lead her out of the stable and maybe go about 20 or 30 yards, then do the girth up a bit more.  Then go another 20 or 30 yards to the mounting block and get on, still with a fairly loose girth, then I'd pull it up another hole or 2 when we had moved off.  Never had a problem after that and she got out of the habit of doing it eventually.


----------



## ribena73 (9 July 2009)

Scally/Ester- the vet did say he was very sensitive under the girth area- I will look into getting a grith sleeve and elasticated leather girth to see if that helps, thanks.


----------



## itsme123 (9 July 2009)

Isnt it normal practice to stretch the legs out after doing the girth up anyway?? I was always taught that this was because of the neve endings and to also prevent rubbing and pinching. 

OP have you tried a fleece girth sleeve? It does indeed appear that he's doing it purposley though you say that's not his normal movement so hard to judge. 

I would be interested to see what the vets say and also what tacking up in other places does.


----------



## Amymay (9 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Isnt it normal practice to stretch the legs out after doing the girth up anyway??   

[/ QUOTE ] 

Not something I've ever done - so i'd say no.


----------



## ribena73 (9 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]


Please don't take this the wrong way and I am in no way having a go but you seem to do the girth up very quickly and this may be exacerbating the underlying problem.The area around the girth is incredibly sensitive and even the most placid horses don't like girths being tightened very quickly. Imagine if someone put a belt round your stomach and suddenly pulled it very tight....! 

[/ QUOTE ]

He'd had the saddle on done up loosely for a few minutes, and I was thinking of taking it off him as he wasn't going to go down, but then thought I'd do it up tightly one last time before "giving up", so it wasn't tightened quickly at all. 

Also, the last time he went down the girth was on the end holes both sides and I could fit two hands under it, he then went down when I put my hand under the girth to attach side reins, so the only pressure then was from what my hand made as it slipped the reins underneath. Not sure this makes a difference to any of the girth bind suggestions??


----------



## ester (9 July 2009)

very variable, I do it but know many who don't.

Mums mare also backed up on me once and ended up down in her stable due to me tightening the girth too quick we have to be very careful with her now and she is fine.


----------



## oofadoofa (9 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Isnt it normal practice to stretch the legs out after doing the girth up anyway??  

[/ QUOTE ]

No I haven't done this either after the problems with my mare, that's what seemed to bring it on!  I think if you are doing the girth up tight enough for them to need stretching you are doing the girth up too tight.  You see far too many people overgirthing and it's a pet hate of mine!


----------



## Silverspring (9 July 2009)

things that crossed my mind...

Has the saddle been checked by someone you really trust/recommended/qualified.  Get peoples opinions on saddle fitting.

Has his back been checked for any pain injury, all the way along his spine including quarters and hips?

Do warm up prior to taking up or does he just stand to get brushes, how long do you brush for if so?

You should try a girth with either a full elastic insert or elstic at both side.  Don't try human girth or ones that claim to stretch the whole way through, they are not as comfortable.

I would put the saddle on and not girth up or girth up so loose there is no effort getting the girth on the straps (not always possible depending on girth length.  Wlak him round and see what he does.

Buy a breast plate so you can ride with a loose girth for as long as you need to.  don't go for a 2 point get a proper breat girth that will totally stabilise the saddle and can take the pressue.

My boy had a cold back (I swear if anyone starts on the no such thing as a cold back I might scream 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) he had kidney problems which made taking a saddle and rider uncomfortable at first, the vet though it might be a pins and needle effect.

To tack him up he got the saddle on and stod for a couple of minute, girthed up super loosely and breat plate on.  I would finsih tacking up thenput the girth up one hole.  Walk him in hand to the school.  Put girth up another hole.  Walk him in school.  Put girth up another hole.  Lunge for a couple of minute.  girth up. lunge then girth again.  wlak him then get on really really slowly, usually belly over for him to take a few steps (mainly incase he bronced) I would then walk him for at least 10 minutes before asking for any proper work, usually a working walk then onto left lead canter to get him properly warmed up (it was his right kidney that hurt so he found this lead easier) it was a farce but it worked for him.  It was that or the bullet as he was no field ornament


----------



## WelshRuby (9 July 2009)

When hes got back off the floor your voice and actions (ie patting) are praising him. Please dont take this the wrong way but its like a trick? Just my opinion, probably a rubbish one!!!!!!


----------



## Silverspring (9 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

You see far too many people overgirthing and it's a pet hate of mine! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite agree it makes me cringe!  Also if you girth is catching the skin behind their elbows chances are your saddle is too far forward OR you need to use the back to girth straps!


----------



## Pedantic (9 July 2009)

He doesn't look distressd in his face or panicky, wonder what he would do in a western saddle with a cinch, or a polo girthing setup,


----------



## bailey14 (9 July 2009)

I always stretch the front legs out when I do up the girth before I get on, it is habit with me.  It irons out any wrinkles in the skin behind the elbow and it settles the saddle on the back.


----------



## Nando (9 July 2009)

"He'd had the saddle on done up loosely for a few minutes, and I was thinking of taking it off him as he wasn't going to go down, but then thought I'd do it up tightly one last time before "giving up", so it wasn't tightened quickly at all. "

Sorry, took so long to type my reply you had already explained this! That said, if he does have a bit of a mental block with his girth any 'quick' movement will trigger a reaction regardless of how long the saddle had been on.

Re;types of girth it may be worth giving this one a try- http://www.aerborn.co.uk/HorseHome.htm (or similar) They are very soft and flexible and since having a severly cold back TB are now the only girths I tend to use (and they are cheap too 
	
	
		
		
	


	




)


----------



## ribena73 (9 July 2009)

Nando- which girth on that page do you mean, will look into getting one, especially as they are cheap  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Having come away from the vets, and then the yard, this morning in a complete funk worrying like mad about his actions I am now feeling a lot more positive that it is not as bad as I thought it could be...... thanks guys! Wish I'd made this video weeks ago before all the vets bills


----------



## JessPickle (9 July 2009)

Have you ever tried putting a bareback pad on him, they have girths but there is no way they can't fit that would eliminate the saddle itself but it isn't weighty.


----------



## Flame_ (9 July 2009)

A horse on our yard does a similar thing. I've seen her go down and be totally away with the fairies for like half a minute before snapping out of it and scrambling up. That was with a rider on too.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





She did go to newmarket years ago, as along with the saddling issue she also has an awkward action behind. After extensive tests it came up with something neurological and the vets advised writing off. The horse has since evented at riding club and intro level, but the owner follows a strict routine tacking up, the day I saw her collapse it was with a new rider. She's also sometimes not really sound behind but after bute and a couple of days off, she's ok again. 

I don't think anyone really understands it, but my point is that sometimes it is manageable.


----------



## 3Beasties (9 July 2009)

I would try this girth

http://www.horseloverz.co.uk/Aerborn-Waffle-Atherstone-Girth-pr-349252.html

I use them on all of mine.

If you are willing to spend more I have also heard good things about these ones but I have never 'needed' one so have never tried it

http://www.horseloverz.co.uk/Wintec-Elastic-Girth-with-Cair-pr-318432.html

From the video I would also say he did it voluntary, he almost looked like he was looking for the right spot to go down in.

I would love you to keep us updated on this as I have never seen anything like it before, I would be very interested if a simple thing like stretching his legs forward makes a difference.


----------



## ribena73 (9 July 2009)

Flame, he has also started moving funny behind, not tracking up properly, and this morning after he went down he could hardly move coming out of the stable. I put it down to him being a bt stiff from dropping down? Bone scan did show a bit of spavin in his hocks though too... (but apparently 90% of horses show this in a bone scan)


----------



## Worried1 (9 July 2009)

I can't see the video as am at work but from what other people have said I thought it might be worth pointing out that Blitz has learnt how to stretch himself. 

When he first started doing it I sh1t myself and yelled for Mr Worried but he very casually said he had done it a couple of times before , we are all used to it now. 

He crosses his front leg over the other, draws his leg up and literally rocks back so he is almost laying down. Sometimes he then swaps legs and does it again.

For him he is clearly releasing something, it is quite so and deliberate though rather than a sudden drop.


----------



## Nando (9 July 2009)

Doh sorry, am a total techno tart with these links! It's the atherstone waffle one


----------



## ester (9 July 2009)

the atherstone waffle one is what I use too. (with a fleece over for the mare just in case)


----------



## ribena73 (9 July 2009)

Atherstone waffle it is then! thanks


----------



## Mrs_Wishkabibble (9 July 2009)

I had an ex advanced eventer on loan and he did something similar. Vet diagnosed as narclopsy, he did it when we tacked him up or when he was stood on the yard but he would look like he had fallen asleep. The vet could clap loud right in his face and there was no reaction at all.
Yours seems to be well aware of what is happening so I would say it is different?


----------



## SnowandSunshine (9 July 2009)

QR
Can't watch the vid cos I'm at work &amp; haven't read all the replies.  My friends horse had a real issue with girthing and when he was scoped they found really bad ulcers.  I have heard of this elsewhere too - pain/bad reaction to girthing can be a symptom of ulcers.


----------



## jhoward (9 July 2009)

do you always girth up on the same side??? 

id lean to wards a nerve being trapped and the horse reacting towards it. 

if not around the girth area id be looking at the withers and behind the shoulders.


----------



## kit279 (9 July 2009)

I used to ride a horse that did exactly the same thing.  He would fret when the girth was being done up and go down on his knees, on the concrete 
	
	
		
		
	


	








 It turned out that the saddle's tree had broken and was digging into him but even after it was replaced, he still fainted when you put the saddle on him.  So worth getting your saddle checked.

I would recommend getting a heart rate monitor from your vet and put it on him in the stable.  Then get the saddle out so he can see it.  Then put the saddle on.  Then girth up.  If he is afraid/in pain, his heart rate will shoot up.  This is a bit like someone who is afraid of the sight of blood or needles - their heart rate goes up and up and up and then they faint.  The horse I knew, his heart rate went through the roof as soon as you got the saddle out.

I have also seen a narcoleptic hunter but it looked quite different to yours.  Yours seems a bit anxious before he goes down, like he knows something's going to happen.

ETS:- what we did with the horse, was to girth him up very very loosely in the stable, take him out into the field or school and do the girth up one hole at a time, walking a 20m circle in hand between each tightening.  He's always going to be a bit iffy about it but he's much better now and hasn't fallen over for about 3 years now.


----------



## ru-fi-do (9 July 2009)

A friend TB used to do something similar, he was very thin skinned. One problem was his saddle was pinching and also the girth. She got him a new shaped girth one of the soft atherstone type ones, she always stretch his legs out even when girth only on loosely and walked him a circle round the yard before tightening it more ver gently, all these are worth a try and have probably been suggested before.


----------



## brighteyes (9 July 2009)

What an fascinating thread (not to take away from the worrying issue, mind).

I think the horse is fully aware at the time of dropping - and in this case it looks quite deliberate.  I agree with the observation that your reaction to him getting up could be interpreted (if this scenario occurred exactly like this every time) as you praising his actions.

Have you tried strong distractions at girthing-up - a large and tasty feed treat or exaggerated dispensing of Polos (much wrapper rustling and so on)?

I will be watching this with great interest!  I hope you get some answers.  I really don't think narcolepsy as you don't mention it happening at any other time.


----------



## itsme123 (9 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isnt it normal practice to stretch the legs out after doing the girth up anyway??  

[/ QUOTE ]

No I haven't done this either after the problems with my mare, that's what seemed to bring it on!  I think if you are doing the girth up tight enough for them to need stretching you are doing the girth up too tight.  You see far too many people overgirthing and it's a pet hate of mine! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily, alot of ponies are quite fleshy around that area (I know our shetland is) and sometimes the fit of the saddlle on a pony means the girth sits that few cms more foward than it would on a horse. I don't always 'need' to stretch the leg out, but was taught to do so and so do out of habit. 
Incidently, ours wears one of these saddle pads with a canvas girth and the other week after daughter saddled him he was really naughty. Next day i noticed a small sore in the girth area, which may, or may not have been as a result of his flesh being pinched. He was a little difficult to girth when we got him, but recently has been much better and I wonder if, in the past his girth has pinched him as a result of him not being stretched out? As i say, he is quite fleshy in that area.


----------



## Herbie31 (9 July 2009)

I was always taught to stretch out their legs - but that was in the day when those horrendous string girths and subsequent girth galls were fairly common. Personally I would only stretch out on a horse that was unfit upto hacking fit. Anything hunting fit etc would not need it imo (for what it counts  
	
	
		
		
	


	








)

Nothing more to add to the already great advice - would be interested to hear updates though


----------



## air78 (9 July 2009)

A few ideas/ what happens if;

you use a different treed saddle?

you use a treeless saddle?

you use a roller?

You use a lunge line around his barrel, no saddle, to pretend to girth up with? You need one with a large clip to thread the length through, then hold the pressure.

Just an observation, but you saddle looks quite high in front, could it be a bit narrow for him (especialy as you say he's muscled up)?

What xrays has the vet done? Has he checked his sternum and all his ribs etc

I hope you get him sorted out


----------



## suzysparkle (9 July 2009)

Highly unlikely to be Narcolepsy. With that they go down with a bang and sleep! One of the carriage Horses in my pics had this. Happened if he was left tied up any length of time. We had to be carefull with him standing outside churches and keep waking him up. I would be tempted to have him checked by an equine bowen therapist or a an equine physio. Maybe he has a trapped nerve or something like that in the girth area and he's doing it to try and relieve the pain? Although he's not reacting while you are doing it up he doesn't look 100% happy either. 

As for girths, is it elastic on only one side? Physio types tend to say avoid these as they cause uneven pressure. If you use elastic best to be triple thickness and both ends. I would then go for the thickest wool girth sleeve you can find, and an anatomically shaped girth as well. A stud girth may help too. 

Definately try a bowen or physio though. Vets aren't always the best for these things (no offence, but been there with a back issue on a previous Horse).


----------



## kbsaff (9 July 2009)

I am so glad you posted this as my section D is exactly the same. 
Saddle goes on, girth goes up, Lennox goes down. 
Only on the front end too. As you say, when he first did it I was at panic stations, now i'm totally used to it and just get my feet out of the way.
To be honest, your horse doesn't look in pain, and certainly isn't panicking. Identical to Lennox. 
My vet/ physio/ saddler etc has checked him all over and found nothing. 
At the end of the day, my theory is that he's not in pain, not doing any damage, and fine after so i just let him get on with it.
Obviously if your boy is suffering other issues as a result of the "going down" then definitely pursue it. But as i said, from  the video, he looks like he is voluntarily going down and getting back up in quite a relaxed manner and doesn't look like he's suffering. Though having said that, I am not a vet and am only talking from experiences with my lad so you should o with your gut instinct.
Sorry to ramble on, but I just want you to know that you're not on your own. 
I'll see if I can get a vid of my lad doing it and post over the weekend.


----------



## Donkeymad (9 July 2009)

QR

OP, when this happens, do you normally remove the saddle and not ride, or do you wait until he is up and then ride?


----------



## kate081 (9 July 2009)

I'd definitely try a roller or a different saddle. I would say nerve as he stumbles slightly before getting down to 'stretch'. My old boy had nerve damage &amp; he would stumble like that when he got up from lying down. I hope you resolve it as it's not nice for either of you.


----------



## ladyearl (9 July 2009)

What an unusual problem I've never seen a horse do this. I hope you find a way around it as he looks like a lovely horse in good shape!  

Just an aside I always stretch the front legs of a horse after tightening girth I thought this was normal practice??? Although I think it comes from the string girth days when you were essentially making sure skin was not caught.


----------



## ribena73 (10 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
QR

OP, when this happens, do you normally remove the saddle and not ride, or do you wait until he is up and then ride? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Recently I've removed the saddle and not ridden as I wasn't sure what was going on. Before that he was ridden once after he did it (was fine but a bit faffy with his head), and other times I lunged him (hard!) so he still did work (and was fine on the lunge, just a bit stiff to start but am thinking now that might be a separate issue)

Re the roller- when at the vets they tried a roller and it didn't happen, although we also tried with his saddle and it didn't happen either- hence the video request!

I've had so much good advice on this, I want to thank you all. He's on the 10 day bute trial now that my vet wanted to see if it's pain related, so am reluctant to change anything else like girth, moving between tightening etc so that I'm not introducing too many variables at once. I'll keep tacking him every day and see what happens, and if he continues to fall over the weekend when the bute should have kicked in will start trying some of the things you guys have suggested. Thanks again

Row x


----------



## ribena73 (10 July 2009)

Can I please ask one more question to those of you who've had/ known horses that do this? Is it something they've always done or is it something that just started all of a sudden? He's had the same saddle for two years, same girth since Feb, the only thing that has changed is that he's been doing a lot more work and has built up muscle across his back. It's a wintec saddle and has had one change of gullet already but will get measurer out and see if he needs another change.


----------



## bailey14 (10 July 2009)

Why don't you go on You Tube and see if anyone has posted a video of an equine with narcolepsy to compare.  Maybe you could even find one that has narcolepsy patterns when tacked up.  There is a photo in this months Horse or Horse &amp; Rider (sorry read both so not sure) of a horse in a stable on its knees, head bowed to the side that had narcolepsy although the owner doesn't seem to realise this is what it has.  Does your horse only ever drop down when tacked up?  Have you tried just placed the saddle on his back without the girth to see what happens.  Wintecs can be a bit dodgy,  I'd ask the opinion of a qualified saddle fitter, maybe see what they say.  Trouble is most of them if they are not reputable will say buy a new saddle from them!


----------



## Amymay (10 July 2009)

Ribena,

Saw Lee last night - and he had a physio with him.  Absolutely no idea at all whether it's worth a consultation from her as well???  I can't remember her name, but Karen in the office will now.....


----------



## ribena73 (10 July 2009)

Applecart- so far it is only when the saddle is on his back and the girth is tightened. I will have a look on you tube at horses with narcolepsy to see if there is any similarities, thanks hadn;t thought of that. Will also have a look in those magazines out of interest.

Amymay- I have been wondering about a physio and/ or chiropractor, but given the lack of evidence of bony problems in tghe x rays I was leaning more towards the physio. I have Alex coming out next week to see Ronan so will ask her about getting a physio. Lee did actually say that he may need some simple physio exercises before and after ridden so that might be worth following up.  Completely separate topic but how is Thumper now?


----------



## Amymay (10 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Completely separate topic but how is Thumper now?   

[/ QUOTE ] 

Big thumbs up last night - so can start working the fat bloater again  
	
	
		
		
	


	






Will be interesting to follow the thoughts of physio......


----------



## ribena73 (10 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]
Completely separate topic but how is Thumper now?   

[/ QUOTE ] 

Big thumbs up last night - so can start working the fat bloater again  
	
	
		
		
	


	






Will be interesting to follow the thoughts of physio...... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad all is well with him


----------



## bailey14 (10 July 2009)

NO THEY  *DO NOT*  GO DOWN WITH A BANG AND SLEEP AS YOU WILL SEE FROM THIS YOU TUBE LINK, ONE OF MANY ON YOU TUBE SHOWING HORSES GRADUALLY SINKING TO THE GROUND.  THE HORSE IN THE LINK IS ALREADY TACKED UP AND PER THE LINK ON MY PREVIOUS REPLY WHICH CATERGORICALLY STATES HORSES CAN GO TO SLEEP DOING ROUTINE TASKS LIKE BEING GROOMED/TACKED UP.  Apologies for replying in bold but a)I wanted the OP to see this link, and b) I do wish people would not make outlandish remarks when they do not know their facts!!!!  Exactly how many narcoleptic horses do you know Suzie Sparkle!  As for people suggesting that the horse is doing this in order to get praise it is like suggesting a horse 'pretends' to be lame in order to bunk off being ridden.  Sorry but horses thought processes are not like that, they do not have that thought capacity.  If I was rich I would stake £100 on the fact your horse has narcolepsy, however I am poor and about to lose my job so I am unable to wager, but I am 110% positive after looking at the You Tube video's that that is what your boy has.  Good luck x
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sThUgIYNezw


----------



## ribena73 (10 July 2009)

Applecart- thanks for that, have had a look at that video and it does look very similar. I'll stick his saddle on tonight and try to keep him stimulated to see if that makes a difference.


----------



## bailey14 (10 July 2009)

Apparently you can clap your hands in front of their faces and they do not react when they are in the state of narcolepsy, it is only before, but how you prevent something nodding off I am really not sure.  If its somekind of neuro condition (which narcolepsy is) I don't really think any amount of stimulation would work, but I am not sure tbh.  See how you get on, and good luck.  I am sure there is something that can be done, but I am puzzled that your vet doesn't seem to think it could be.  Not on forum until Tuesday lunchtime now, but would love to know how you get on x


----------



## Chestnuttymare (10 July 2009)

good grief, i have never seen anything like that. I knew he was doing it but it is really weird to see it on film. i ama also amazed at the others who said they have or know of a horse with the same sort of thing.
No advice to give, but just want to say good luck in geting it sorted. I hope it is aomething as simple as a different girth or a sheepskin sleeve.

He is a beautiful boy, it must be such a worry.


----------



## gails (10 July 2009)

One of the horses at our yard was throwing himself on the floor, so we used a polypad, and it now seems to have stopped him.


----------



## MagicMelon (12 July 2009)

See http://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/71895.html

One post says "It can be easily induced (in horses that are predisposed to fainting) by a tight girth...Try tightening the girth very gradually while the horse walks slowly... and I think you'll never see her falling asleep again."

There's more posts about this sort of thing here:

http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/hor...th-11723-2.html

Google it and you come up with the above and several other bits of info worth considering.


----------



## rara007 (12 July 2009)

There is an interesting article by a saddler in Essex rider this month, about a horse who sounds very like yours. Assuming its not about your horse and you've not seen it it might be worth a look. The basic conclusion is the horse doesn't like the rider getting on in a 'thumpy' way, and although not in much physical pain from it is mentally anticipating this before.


----------



## Weezy (12 July 2009)

Very interesting thread.  Ted does what I thought was self stretching when being saddled, but doesn't go down.  He does it less now I have switched from a leather girth to one of these gel girths...

http://www.old-dairy-online-saddlery-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Girths.html

Last 2 on link 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Am going to have to vid my horse now in case it is narcolepsy too!


----------



## ribena73 (13 July 2009)

Thanks for all your replies, thought I'd post an update. We tacked him up Friday and he was fine, then Saturday we did the girth up very loosely (ie first hole either side) and he went down (although not completely). Then we tightened and lunged him and he was fine, so he was ridden. So now not sure if it is the actual tightening of the girth that's causing the problem? he's also well into his bute trial now...... Tacked up yesterday and he was fine......  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Not sure if it's related but he is always tired, always yawning and seeming half asleep. If he is overtired could this be inducing it, if it is narcolepsy? Friday I was really concerned about his tiredness (like if it was one of my kids I'd be taking him to the GP concerned) as he was just so sleepy.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Waiting for my vet to get back to me now she's seen the video, and she's coming out for a visit to see him on Thursday so will be able to have a proper discussion with her then, and also mention a lot of what you guys have suggested to see what she thinks.


----------



## dressager (13 July 2009)

Not sure if this is relevant... but in our local Pegasus magazine this month there is a report by a saddler who was confronted by a horse with a similar problem of sinking to its knees whilst the saddle was being put on (the saddle was a good fit) The vet only detected minor sensitivity on the back. What they eventually found was that a previous rider when mounting, always landed heavily on the saddle, which had led to a great deal more mental discomfort than physical, and hence this unusual behaviour.

If all physical/pain issues are ruled perhaps its worth considering what may have happened in the horse's past which has led to this behaviour?


----------



## WATERHOUSE13 (20 July 2009)

My horse is very slightly cold-backed and has always been a little 'tight' when first ridden - although this quickly wears off and she competes in all three disciplines quite successfully. A few years ago when stretching her front legs out and also picking her front feet out when just girthed up she started to go down just like your horse. In six years that's all she'd done. A couple of months ago she had a violent and extreme reaction just after being girthed up; firstly leaning back on her quarters and looking 'trembly in her front legs before she literally threw herself around the stable in a blind panic. I googled cold back and read that her symptoms were identical to what is described as an extreme cold-back reaction when the horse literally panics. The solution is to very loosely girth and walk the horse round to allow it to adjust to the sternum pressure etc. and to try and always mount from a block rather than hauling up onto the horse from the ground. My mare has not done it since and I'm confident it's something that can be managed quite easily. Was very frightening at the time though before I realised what it was!


----------



## oldforge (22 July 2009)

Horses have a nerve running close enough to the girth area and sometimes this area can become damaged and then the pressure of a tightening girth gives them enough discomfort/pain to send them to the ground. It is very startling to have a horse just collapse in front of you right after you have tightened the girth .   I have had it happen to me.   Your horse is not being naughty - it is just trying to avoid pain.

After watching your video I suspect this is the problem although a back problem cannot be ruled out - after a few days rest you could try girthing your horse up from the other side and stretching out the legs too. If this does not work your I'm sure your vet will advise you.  Good Luck


----------



## abracadabra (22 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]


When he first started doing it I sh1t myself and yelled for Mr Worried but he very casually said he had done it a couple of times before , we are all used to it now. 

He crosses his front leg over the other, draws his leg up and literally rocks back so he is almost laying down. Sometimes he then swaps legs and does it again.

For him he is clearly releasing something, it is quite so and deliberate though rather than a sudden drop. 

[/ QUOTE ]

one of mine does something like that, sometimes after the saddles, on sometimes when she sees it coming. 
i call it her yoga...she has both forelegs extended right out and stretches down so her chest is almost on the floor.

shes obviously not in pain or she'd bugger off, since i tack the horses up in a big field
, loose, as theres nowhere really to tie them


----------



## ribena73 (22 July 2009)

He's been on bute for a week and didn't go down at all during that time, whilst being girthed at least, so I suspect it is a pain thing. However, I picked his front leg up on Monday morning to pick out his hoof (after being tacked up in stable) and he went down then. Very odd! So that can't have been pain surely? Kept picking his leg up then and he was fine (didn't want him to associate going down with not being ridden!)


----------



## spaniel (22 July 2009)

Sorry if you have already covered this but have you had scintigraphy scans yet?  Now you have mentioned that the horse does this having a foot picked up it does make me wonder if the vets have missed something boney or muscley.


----------



## ribena73 (22 July 2009)

Spaniel, yes he's had a bone scan, there was increased uptake across his back and also the dsps around his bum, and then x rays showed a very slight thickening of the articular facets under his saddle but the vet thinks that is within the normal range. However, if all other avenues fail (new saddle, physio etc) then the vet will look at injecting the facet joint to see if that helps. i want to try less invasive methods first though before we go down that route


----------



## Nala (24 June 2010)

Hi, I'm new to this forum and came across it when trying to find out what's up with my Boy and how to help him as the vet doesn't know what's wrong and says he has never seen the like before.  Lad is a 16.3hh 17 yr old TB (X Racer) and he's just a perfect gentleman in every way.  I bought him last October.  I thought he objected to being tied up too tightly whilst being tacked up so I tied him loose and then he would back up until his bum touched the wall - but nothing too dramatic.  He doesn't so much as twitch when the saddle goes on or when he's groomed, or when I get on and off.  He rides out perfectly and has easy transitions.  I've been tacking himup outside since the nice weather came so there was no wall behind him and he'd back up much further and then go down until is elbows touched the floor and his bum was in the air - snapping the bailing string without even noticing.  At first I though he was being a bit naughty but the last two weeks have becoem more dramatic.  The saddle can be on him for ages and he doesn't bother.  I can put the girth on and pull it up with 'one finger' pressure and he's OK.  But the minute I get to the hole where I need to use finger and thumb that's when it starts like pressing a button!  He goes down on his elbows with legs bent and out in front, then he lays down on his side for a few seconds and then he rolls back into either a sitting position or rests on one side of his haunches.  Then he'll get up.  Sometimes he repeats the same thing all over again. He seems to be stretching his belly at some point as if he's trying to get the girth off his chest.  I could imagine an overtight girth could cause this reaction but even the vet admitted that he could still get a leg, never mind his arm through the girth and the last couple of weeks my friend has said you an see clear daylight through the girth all the time.  I'm just hoping he doesn't shy violently to the side with such a loose girth!  I've tried tightening really slowly and walking in between but it makes no difference as he does it on that first minute pressure from one buckle.  I've tried getting on with a swinging girth and pulling up to that first 'pressure' hole from on top but had to jump off him when he went down on the driveway.  The vet says he's never seen such a dramatic reaction and, having prodded and pummeled him all over, he can't find any seat of pain.  I've got a physio coming next week and a master saddler coming tomorrow and am hoping that one or both might help me shed some light.  I got him a new girth - one of those all stretchy things and a wooly sheath which covers it's full length but that didn't make any difference

In the meantime I'm going to try a few things...my other hors's western saddle and cinching it up low down as opposed to behind the elbow in the normal girth area....passing a thin rope right round him and seeing if the pressure of tightening this slightly causes the same reaction, and if not then doing the same thing but over the saddle also....putting the girth a few inches further back and tightening it over the saddle using a rope, so he feels the normal girth tighten but it's on a different pressure area - and anythign else I can think of that might help locate/eliminate the seat of pain.


----------



## china (24 June 2010)

i cant see the video. it says its been removed, prince used to collapse if i did it up to tight to quick, almost like it winded him so i do it up very slowly and dont tighten it untill i get on. but without seeing it i dnt know.


----------



## spaniel (24 June 2010)

ribena did you get to the bottom of this?


----------



## Hedgewitch13 (24 June 2010)

I haven't read all the posts so apologies if I'm repeating anything! My mare used to do this as a youngster (4 year old). Sometimes it was when I was on the ground and other times when I did her girth when I was on board. She kind of grew out of it thankfully but I did always stretch her front legs and also walk her in hand up and down once or twice before I got on. She is now 14 and hasn't done it since being a 'baby'. 

I have got a scar on my bum though where she went down then popped right back up again and I sailed out the side door (it was totally unexpected - one of the first 'episodes') and landed on a concrete ledge! Just a warning to take care


----------



## devilwoman (24 June 2010)

I had a friend whose horse did this regular, she ended up being scoped and found ulcers, she has been treated with gastroguard and has not done it since, good luck x


----------



## WishfulThinker (24 June 2010)

Good god this thread is long!

I used to years ago ride a horse that would collapse if the girth was done up quickly.  He would not go all the way down, and he would get up straight away and was fine to ride after.  He was also very sharp to the leg.


----------



## Django Pony (24 June 2010)

Can't see the video, but hope you get an answer and sort it out soon. x


----------



## Dolcé (24 June 2010)

itsme123 said:



			Isnt it normal practice to stretch the legs out after doing the girth up anyway?? I was always taught that this was because of the neve endings and to also prevent rubbing and pinching. 

I was taught to do this too but that was way back in the days of the old string girths and to make sure no skin was caught up between the strings -
		
Click to expand...


----------



## missieh (24 June 2010)

Just a couple of suggestions, most of which already suggested!

1. Do girth up one hole at a time;
2. Use sheephskin sleeve over girth;
3. When girth secure, before getting on stretch both legs forward to get rid of any creases;
4. Try clicker training him out of this behaviour - as you progress through each hole up click with your tounge and immediately give a little treat, rewarding him only when he does not go down (i.e. the behaviour that you want). Eventually, he will await the click and therefore the treat and you will have clicker-trained him out of this behavioural issue (which I believe that it is)

Good luck xx


----------



## brighteyes (24 June 2010)

Where did the video go?


----------



## flowerlady (24 June 2010)

I was going to ask that until I saw this thread was started in July 2009


----------

