# Advice needed on selling a talented but naughty young horse



## Cavallo (7 June 2010)

Hi,
I am hoping someone can give some advice here...I have a beautiful young dressage horse, very high quality movement, excellent breeding, and is destined for big things. He can also jump very well. The only problem is that he can be naughty. I've paid oodles of money for full training livery of this horse for 2 years. However, his behavior has become too much for me (occasional bucking and rearing), and he has grown too large for me (over 17HH will probably hit 17.3HH). He has a very sweet, loving character on the ground and is an angel in his box, but he becomes naughtly when he is asked to work. 

He is worth a lot of money, I paid a lot for this talented horse, but will his naughty behavior mean that I have to drop the price significantly in order to sell him? I want to sell him ASAP as I want to move on with my life and get another horse (a safe, well-behaved one). Should I continue with the training livery to see if his behavior gets any better? (he has been thoroughly checked by the vet, physio, saddler, and there is nothing physically wrong with him). Or should I put him up for sale without delay at a reduced price and make sure prospective buyers know he's a bit unpredictable (and therefore not suited to novice riders...he is a professional's horse). I thought about sending him to a dealer's yard, but I've heard terrible things about dealers, and don't want the horse to be beaten, poorly treated etc. I also thought about sending him to a showjumping yard, and thought maybe his poor behavior is because he hates going round in circles (dressage), and would prefer to be jumping (he would excel in this area). But it's all just "maybes". At the end of the day, I want to move on as quickly as possible and just want him sold now. 

What should I do?? Help! Feel free to respond here or to PM me. Any advice or shared experiences would be greatly appreciated.


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## Morrigan_Lady (7 June 2010)

Im in pretty much the same situation!  Id be interested to see what replies you get on this.


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## BBH (7 June 2010)

I think a lot depends on how naughty he is ? You say he is on training livery presumably with someone competant, how do they find him to ride ? It may be that he's too much for you to handle but not a professional but IME a professional doesn't always want a difficult horse even with talent because there are talented horses out there who aren't difficult.

I would get him assessed by a reputable professional who may know someone he might suit. My gut feeling is that you won't recoup your costs and his selling price may reflect how quickly you want to sell him.  

If he has primarily been dressage trained I would personally sell him on this basis so you can show off what he's learnt. Any jumping ability can be shown on viewing.

I bought exactly the horse you describe and spent circa £40k having him on training livery and in the end I gave him away cos I got tired of the on going will he wont he work saga. Some horses despite their top breeding just aren't trainable and I would cut my losses and sell him  to whoever gives you a good fair price and provides him with the right home.


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## Stoxx (7 June 2010)

If he is with someone on training livery can they not sell him for you too?  And advise what sort of price etc?


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## Cavallo (7 June 2010)

He has been through a couple of "professional" trainers. One of them rode him quite badly and treated him aggressively. I moved the horse onto another yard recently, where the pro talked a big story, but he didn't keep his promises, and the horse took a turn for the worse there.  I couldn't trust the trainer, I don't think he had actually been riding the horse. I've just moved the horse again, to another professional, but this one is scared to get on him. I'm stuck, I don't know what to do, he's a lovely horse, but some so-called pros have transformed him into a naughty and rebellious boy. If the current trainer won't ride him, then it will be impossible to sell him as he will need to be trained regularly and shown to prospective buyers. Plus, I am paying full whack for training livery although he isn't being ridden. There is also the problem of some trainers taking on a horses to be sold, but they are not actually motivated to sell the horse because they get full livery if the horse stays...can anyone recommend someone I can trust to sell this horse? PM me please!


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## LEC (7 June 2010)

This is the type of horse I buy who would normally be out of my budget but has issues which I can normally overcome with time and patience. I like classy horses but never have the budget so instead I buy challenging horses. They have to be priced right for me to take the risk. It all comes down to money and you also need to be prepared to fend off the idiots as 90% of the horseworld is now made up by them.


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## shark1 (7 June 2010)

Does he still have the will to want to work? as i think thats very important, ie he messes around but will produce the goods competively at least 70% of the time? 
if yes, then i would think you can find a home without dropping the price too much at all. but the basic trainability must be there, otherwise its not worth anyones time and thats when the price will suffer.


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## TheMule (7 June 2010)

I think you need to get him in a dressage yard where they have a gutsy rider that can squash him for a couple of weeks and then re-evaluate.
He wont have much valuable at the moment as he sounds unrideable for most normal people.


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## LEC (7 June 2010)

Not sure where you are based but Alex Peternell is brave. Not everyones cup of tea but he will sit on horses many will not and will normally get a tune out of them being an eventer the horse will do a bit of everything.


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## Baggybreeches (7 June 2010)

LEC said:



			This is the type of horse I buy who would normally be out of my budget but has issues which I can normally overcome with time and patience. I like classy horses but never have the budget so instead I buy challenging horses. They have to be priced right for me to take the risk. It all comes down to money and you also need to be prepared to fend off the idiots as 90% of the horseworld is now made up by them.
		
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Only 90% LEC? You must being doing better than round here!


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## Cavallo (7 June 2010)

Thanks Shark1, TheMule and LEC. It's all valuable feedback. The horse definitely does have the will, he is very trainable, very intelligent (although his laid-back, loving attitude would have you believe otherwise). He isn't sharp or hot, just nicely responsive. He'd be the perfect horse if he didn't have the occasional paddy when being ridden. He is also absolutely stunning. There are a couple of young gutsy employed riders at the yard who are very keen to have a go on him, but the pro trainer has told them not to touch him and instructed that he should only be turned out...maybe I just need to be patient and let this new trainer do things at the horse's pace. I found another horse that I want, but can't buy it until I've sold mine (


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## BBH (7 June 2010)

What surprises / concerns me is that the pro riders are refusing to get on him. I am fully aware there are lazy trainers but none i've met will actually refuse to get on a horse unless he is actually dangerous. Most horses of any ability have
 ' paddies' and trainers know this but to not be able to recommend a gusty rider or have a sit themselves or ask their pupils to jump on and only to turn him out makes me suspicious. 

As I said before my horse was a nightmare but the trainer got on and so did his pupils.

I think you're main problem will be finding someone to trust to sell him for you, as we all know to our cost there are some real sharks out there who just want your money.

Which area are you, we may be able to make some recommendations


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## LEC (7 June 2010)

You are paying for their advice and if the horse has already been moved a couple of times I would agree with being patient. It does not sound too desperate a situation and maybe some chill out time and a relaxed approach for the horse will work very effectively.


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## fingers_crossed (7 June 2010)

Do you have a picture or video? And where in the country are you ? how old is the horse and what is the general price bracket you are looking at? - Might help people to give some more specific recommendations! I'll ask OH x


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## mystiandsunny (7 June 2010)

I haven't yet met a horse whose temperment differs vastly on the ground to that in the saddle - unless it was a man-made difference, through experience or through pain.  If your horse is a real sweetie on the ground, and maybe got confused/frustrated/scared and thus threw tantrums, then was treated aggressively, it would have made things much worse.  Perhaps the new trainer is simply giving him time to learn to trust people again, and to be more calm and trusting, before embarking on re-training?


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## BBH (7 June 2010)

A I said in the PM I would try and move him somewhere he can have some chill out time and then when he's ridden again do some fun stuff. Dressage training can be very intensive and he maybe school fatigued. It'll also give your bank balance a rest and give you sometime to think about your options.

You are paying £200 a week for someone to turn him out at the moment and if he stays there they need to help you come to some conclusions about his future imo.


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## charlie76 (7 June 2010)

Could you PM me with pics/ bit more info?? 
Thanks


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## Mups (7 June 2010)

Hello!

Decided to register and do my first post as I have so much sympathy with your dilemma!  I frequently look at H&H forum posts as they have so much useful information.

I have recently gotten rid of a talented naughty youngster - with the opposite problems.  To ride he was an angel, to handle on the ground he was a nightmare!  I have a fair bit of experience with naughty horses as could never afford nice ones but this chap was in a league of his own.  I didnt put him to a professional as to be honest he was too dangerous (jumping out of trailer, rearing when lead and galloping in other direction, rearing in stable with feet on top of bars, severe dependancy on other horses etc etc).

Anyway this story does have a happy ending as I did love him and it was a heart breaking sale.  I sold him (through a friend) to a semi professional lady who showjumps and has lots of horses.  I was completely honest about everything and got the money back that I paid for him.  He is still as badly behaved as ever but she can manage it as she does horses full time and puts up with it as he is so talented.

I would have kept the horse but like most people i have a full time job and my horsey time is far too precious to be spending it dealing with bad behaviour as it stops being enjoyable.  I now have the most wonderful horse that is not as talented but that i can do everything with and I love her.

To cut a long story short if you advertise him properly and put the word out you should find the right home for your horse.  And do it sooner rather than later so you can spend your money and time on a horse that is right for you 

Hope this helps!


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## Booboos (7 June 2010)

Sorry to hear you are having problems, but to be brutally honest I think you will be lucky to sell this horse.

In your very first post I thought you meant you had a horse that went well with a professional (e.g. training progressing well, out qualifying BD at levels appropriate to his age/experience, etc.) but would require an experienced amateur owner. These people do exist but I am sure they would not want to pay top price for a horse whose temperament precludes other people from riding him. Professionals, at least in my experience, would want to buy unbroken and work on the horse themselves, rather than inherit someone else's problems.

Your second post clarified the picture a bit. This horse is currently unriddable even by the professionals you have paid to school him. This is a really sad situation and I feel for you, but from a buyers perspective people would only be interested for very, very little money. 

I don't see a quick solution to this. If I were you, I would get an experienced vet to look this horse over and make sure there are no physical problems (such extreme reactions are often caused by pain), then I would turn the horse away for a couple of months to relax and re-back him using a professional who understands the problems you have been having. He/she can then advise you on what kind of future this horse has and only then will you be able to consider what kind of new home you can find for him. Either that, or sell him for a thousand pounds to give his new owner an incentive to take the risk that he will come right.


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## sweet-tooth (7 June 2010)

I agree with LHS, some chill out / down time would do him the world of good, let him relax, thus giving you the time to find a reputable training / sales yard that will work with your best interests at heart.

I certainly wouldn't be paying that amount of money for effectively bring in and turnout. I think that's a bit rich to be honest but that is none of my business.

Could you not find grass livery somewhere local to you, sorry I'm not sure where you are country wise for any suggestions.

I have been in your situation with a quirky but kind horse, I did sell him via a sales livery, but got my fingers burnt, but did achieve a good price for him as he was talented and sensitive rather than talented and plain naughty.

Its about matching the right rider to get the best tune out of your horse and it to me at any rate doesn't sound like you have found the best rider for him.

Good luck.

Oh just thought of someone who took my friends mare on who was a tad difficult, the partner of Spencer Wilton - Alex ? the name escapes me now, but I think she was pleased overall.


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## Booboos (7 June 2010)

sweet-tooth said:



			Oh just thought of someone who took my friends mare on who was a tad difficult, the partner of Spencer Wilton - Alex ? the name escapes me now, but I think she was pleased overall.
		
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Spencer Wilton's partner is Jay Halim, a showjumper, they have a website together if you google them the details come up. I would imagine training livery there would be on the costly side.


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## shark1 (7 June 2010)

sweet-tooth said:



			Its about matching the right rider to get the best tune out of your horse and it to me at any rate doesn't sound like you have found the best rider for him.
		
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i think thats exactly right. 

its very hard to find someone who is good enough to ride out the storm but isnt too black and white as that doesnt help a quirky horse. sometimes riders can lack a bit of sensitivity, particularly if they have a big ego and dont like being made to look stupid by a horse they can go about 'curing' it the wrong way!


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## Cavallo (7 June 2010)

Thanks for all your comments. A few of you have asked about price range etc...he's worth in the region of £26-29K, but am now looking to move him quickly for a price range of around £18-19K. He is a top class horse, with outstanding looks, and would be a bargain at this price. He is having a week's holiday in the field at the moment, and I'm planning to get the vet out again to check for any back pain etc before he starts to work again...it's all so frustrating though...I pay all this money and I don't have a horse to ride


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## kirstyl (7 June 2010)

Hi, sorry to hear you're having problems. Unfortunately I can't see you being able to sell this horse if you consider 18k to be a bargain price for a horse that is currently not able to be ridden by anyone.  His breeding may be impeccable but it really doesn't help if he is unrideable.  If you have all physical aspects checked ie teeth, back, saddle and everything is ok, you need to talk to your 'professional' and ask him what his plan of action is.  If the horse needs turning away for a while (not sure how old he is?), then don't keep paying lots of money for training livery! And if you're not happy with what the professional is planning, then ask around, use people on here.  There are fantastic trainers about, plenty who work specifically with quirky horses but equally there are lots who are not so honest or talented and if they can see you are happy to go on paying training livery indefinitely, won't make them get on with the job.  Best of luck, I hope you get things sorted out and most importantly, your horse happy!


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## Cavallo (7 June 2010)

Kirstyl, your honest comments are appreciated, my horse is 5 years old. I am certainly looking farther afield to trainers that have been recommended to me on here...am also looking at just cutting losses and selling him cheaper, although he cost me double! plus full schooling for 2 years...it has been an expensive and unrewarding learning experience. This thread today has opened my mind to other ways forward with this horse, whether it be selling or other alternatives...


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## happihorse (7 June 2010)

I really feel for you.  You have clearly tried to do the very best for this horse.

I had a similar experience a few years ago.  I ended up keeping the horse at a top dressage trainers yard and even the trainer wouldn't get on him.  (Certainly made me feel better about being scared to ride the horse!)  I ended up spending a fortune on training to try to make this horse suitable for me but it just didn't happen.  I decided to cut my losses and sold him very cheap (for about a quarter of what I bought him for) and now have a horse that I can really enjoy.


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## daydreambeliever (7 June 2010)

I think i would be asking on here " anyone recommend a trainer in ----- area" You may also find that turning him away for 2-3 wks and start afresh with basic training and  lots of ground work helps. Perhaps try and change his livery so he lives out over the summer to give him a chance to mature. I'm guessing he is a well bred horse and that he could just be going through toddler type tantrums and in a years time he could be totaly different.

Good luck whatever you decide.


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## SpruceRI (7 June 2010)

Much as I don't think that constant moves of yard are good for a horse, especially one that is having behavioural problems, I do think a move would benefit your horse.  Maybe to somewhere a bit less intense... a bog standard livery yard with good staff and plenty of turnout.

Anyway, I would go down the route of finding a rider to come over to me and ride the horse for me....

Someone who is brave and won't stand for any nonsense... just to hack and have a bit of fun on your horse for a while, see if that makes any difference to his behaviour.  

As maybe as you say, he's finding the whole dressage thing a bit intense and if the previous professional was a bit harsh he may still be throwing his toys out of the pram over that.


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## thinlizzy (7 June 2010)

If you have had him at a few trainers really he has had new homes i agree with vet check and turn away im afraid even for six weeks holiday and bring back into work .How onhand are you at training livery ? When i was much much younger working on these yards and friends who did, it wasnt usually the said rider who rode/trained it was the staff so to speak .Can you speak to old owners/trainers about  your horse im sure they will help with information ,and of course any past owners in the passport .Goodluck .


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## Rosiefan (8 June 2010)

He's only 5 and been on full schooling livery for 2 years! Crikey - sounds like he needs a break.  Good luck.


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## kerilli (8 June 2010)

i think he needs a break too! i think you should be paying basic keep only if they're too frightened to ride him, how ridiculous. It sounds as if you have been seriously 'had' by a few so-called Pros. i'd chuck him out in a field for a few months to just be a horse with no pressure at all, if he was mine.
If that's not possible, i would send him to a very experienced recommended horse-straighten-outer rather than to a Pro yard, i've heard great things about Jason Webb, for example, been told that a lot of Pro Eventers send their tricky ones to him to get going nicely. Otherwise, what about Richard Maxwell. Or, a friend sent a rather tricky mare to Graham Law, who did an absolutely great job with her (didn't even consider her particularly tricky, he gets sent lots like that!), so he's recommended too - he's an excellent jockey who actually gets on and does it himself.
once the attitude is sorted (if it can be, but if anyone can, this kind of person can) then the training can come later... it sounds as if he needs a bit of Attitude Adjustment first.
hope that helps, v best of luck finding a great home for him, hope you recoup a lot of what you've spent.


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## Orangehorse (8 June 2010)

I really feel for you and there have been a lot of good suggestions.  But I wonder when this problem started and what started it?  My gut instinct was to say send give him to someone to hunt for a season, but I guess with that sort of price tag you would be reluctant to do that.

I think the chill-out time in a field for a bit with no riding at all would be a good thing - it is summer after all.  It sounds as though the "training livery" could have been a bit intense.  Do they get schooled all the time or do they have variety?  Do they go out and about, hacking, to shows, etc.  Also just how naughty is he?  Is it just a few bucks and rears or is it "I am going to do this until you fall off"?

There is always a REASON why horses become naughty, from their point of view anyway.  It is the rider's problem to work out what that reason was.  Sometimes it was a physical problem, sometimes is a mental one.  Never easy.  As far as the selling part, unless you want to practically give him away I think it is going to be mightly difficult to get anywhere near what you paid for him at the moment if he can't be ridden safely or has a competition record.


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## Maesfen (8 June 2010)

I feel so sorry for this young horse.  Overstressed, over trained, over moved about and all before he is old enough that he hasn't even finished growing.  You've had him pushed too far too hard too young, give the poor horse a good summer break and bring him in after the summer to gently hack about.  You can't ask a boy to do a man's job; the same goes for horses, especially late maturers else they will spit the dummy out because they are not physically or mentally ready for it.


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## JVB (8 June 2010)

Rosiefan said:



			He's only 5 and been on full schooling livery for 2 years! Crikey - sounds like he needs a break.  Good luck.
		
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Agree totally, and I imagine if he's a big WB type he may be slow to mature and as only 5 is just being a stroppy teenager - how much work has he been doing in the past two years?

What is he like to hack?

Only say this as I have big WB mare who's now 8 but was difficult for years, only just matured this year really. I also understand no one wanting to ride him, I have yet to find an instructor who will sit on my mare and she really isn't that bad - just bit sharp


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## dressager (8 June 2010)

On the few occasions I saw the horse being ridden when you first had him he looked quiet enough for a 3yo, especially considering he was probably not being turned out or ridden as regularly as he should gave been... Sounds like a case of too much too young perhaps, all young horses should be given time to mentally as well as physically mature, have a varied routine of jumping and hacking besides just schooling. I obviously don't know the whole story, but perhaps you'd be better off sending him to a non dressage person if you're considering remedial work. 

My trainer has also used Jason Webb for "difficult horses". We have to remember that 99% of the time difficult horses (having excluded pain) are made and not born, so yes it will take a lot of time and patience to remedy the situation. If you are hoping to sell him as he is now I think you will have to be more realistic about price and be VERY careful who he goes to.

All the best with it all though. All we can do is learn from the experience and hopefully you'll find a more suitable, quieter older horse soon.


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## horses13 (8 June 2010)

LHS said:



			A I said in the PM I would try and move him somewhere he can have some chill out time and then when he's ridden again do some fun stuff. Dressage training can be very intensive and he maybe school fatigued. It'll also give your bank balance a rest and give you sometime to think about your options.

You are paying £200 a week for someone to turn him out at the moment and if he stays there they need to help you come to some conclusions about his future imo.
		
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Just what i was thinking. Intensive training can be overpowering. He sounds a wonderful horse but problems have been created by the wrong people.
 If it were my horse i would get him home give him a holiday and find a trainer by recomendation and see for yourself how they work and end results.
 I do think thishorse does need to do other things first that he finds enjoyable.
 Good luck.


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## lillie07 (8 June 2010)

I really do feel for you, I have been there and it really is a horrible position to be in.

I really don't want to come across as negative, or to offend you, but, in my opinion, for what it is worth, if you really do want to get rid of this horse and move on I think you need to be realistic with your price. As a 5 year old you are selling him on purely on potential, and to be honest if he is unpredictable and nobody can ride the horse to train him, he doesnt really have any. You would be lucky to sell him for a 1/4 of the price you are talking about. 

He does sound cracking, and if you feel he is worth continuing with then you have had lots of fantastic advice on this post, I hope you work out what is best for you and for him.


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## KPM (8 June 2010)

Hi

Prompted to register to respond to this post.  I have a talented WB gelding, who I bought relatively cheaply (for his type and potential) due to him being 'quirky'.  He is difficult to start with until he gets going.  Before I owned him he was at two big name yards both of which struggled with him.  He is now with a young talented professional, not a big name, who does all the riding himself.  Rider is brave and is earning a bit of a reputation for being very good with talented but 'quirky' horses.  The ones that need someone who is a good enough rider for them but not afraid to sit out a rear and a buck etc.   If you could find someone like this in your area I think you would be on a better path for your boy. Wouldn't necessarily be a big name, but the up and comings are more likely to give your boy a shot if he has the potential once the issue is worked through, and thus could give them a break. 

Agree-perhaps ask on here for recomendations?

Good luck. Its a difficult one when they are talented but with him being at somewhere where they are 'afraid' of him he will only get worse- trust me on that one!


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## Cavallo (8 June 2010)

Thanks everyone. I've been following up on all your suggestions, have made some calls, and actually made a spreadsheet of all the options ) Jason Webb looks like a good prospect but he's not been answering his phone. 

For now, my big beastie will have some time off to chill out and relax, and to try to forget about the intensive and unpleasant month he had in May. To be fair, his behavior only became really naughty during the past month...before that he was a happy smiley camper... it's all been a bit much for him and he deserves a break. I'm now looking at my options, you've all opened my eyes to various alternatives, and I'd like to say a genuine thank you for all your responses.


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## kerilli (8 June 2010)

Cavallo, that sounds like a great idea for him, v v best of luck with him, hope you let us know how it goes.
Fwiw i have known quite a few young horses have a break and come back hugely improved, far far better than they were before the rest, better in attitude as well as balance etc.
He sounds like a very talented horse, don't give up!


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