# Wintec saddles!!



## NicoleS_007 (18 May 2010)

Had the saddler out tonight as the physio said that my horse had a bit of wither pain . . . He has rather high withers so doesnt help lol needs reflocked on the left which was the reason for it slipping slightly to the left whilst riding  duhhhh me lol ... but i thought the wintec cairs didnt need reflocked??!!


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (18 May 2010)

Do yourself and your horse a big favour and get rid of the Wintec, preferably burn it!!!! I say this because my poor horse has got an awfully sore back; he's been wearing a wintec for the past few months and is on working livery where he is well used, and basically he's gone from being a really lovely well mannered boy in the stable to putting his ears back and making faces, and cowkicking, every time anyone comes near him with a saddle. Its awful, and I know its easy to blame one particular saddle, but this is the second horse I've had which has had a problem with a wintec.

A saddler I know and respect immensely won't fit them, full stop. She only fits leather saddles coz she says that she's seen far too many horses who'se backs have been damaged by synthetic/adjustable saddles. Her take is that firstly synthetic doesn't bend with the horse like leather does, it stays hard and inflexible; secondly the plastic can set up a static reaction on the horse and she believes that the horse can actually get a static electric shock from them (like you can sometimes if you get out the car and then touch something); also the CAIR panels maybe reacting to the heat on the horse's back - basic science will indicate that hot air expands, making the space available less .... so if this happens with the CAIR panels they may be getting hard rather than staying soft. 

I think the problem with Wintec and other "adjustable" saddles is that people tend to think that one size fits all, and the temptation is to think that all you have to do is change the gullett and hey presto, everything will be hunky dory. But it won't, and you may end up like my poor boy and now I've got a soured horse to sort out who doesn't want anything on  his back. 

I know there are plenty of people who think a wintec is the best thing since sliced bread; I was one of those people, yes its easy to look after, you can go out in all weathers and don't have to worry about spoiling the leather, BUT I think synthetic/adjustable saddles have a very long way to go in terms of actually fitting the horse and being a good and comfortable fit. 

Having been a "convert" I now wouldn't want one as a gift. Its back to old-fashioned leather for me!


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## Sparkles (18 May 2010)

Ditto the 'burn it' comment.....lol sorry


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## magic14339 (18 May 2010)

I slightly disagree with the above statements.  I can respect peoples individual experiences with the wintecs but let me share mine.....I am an equine therapist and work with a wide variety of horses from retirees to top class dressage horses/eventers.  There are some I would say could use a wintec and others that i wouldn't ever ever suggest one being suitable for.  I think the main thing with the cair saddles is that they either sit well on your horse or they don't.  In my experience I have found that on some horses the wintec cair has become the only saddle they truly feel comfortable in and work well in.  This is not just an immediate response but is over a period of time with regular back checks.  With others the cair saddle just doesn't sit right and I would never recomend adjusting this type of saddle much as that can create issues.  I prefer synthetic cair systems to leather as I have heard that there can be technical difficulties with the leather versions which are caused in part by the flexible nature of the leather.

Your experience of your horse in a riding school could also be due to a few other factors worth considering.
1) your horse is being ridden by a variety of riders all with different balance/weight etc.
2) your horse may have a muscular asymmetry which needs to be addressed. - I would not say the wintec cair is very adjustable when it comes to this and would personally use a specifically tailored numnah/gel pad to deal with this.

Maybe worth considering all the factors at play.

I can definately agree that the wintec can be an incorrect saddle for many horses however in my experience I have found there are some where it becomes an invaluable tool.


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## sun-shine (19 May 2010)

I understood that the wintec tree had been originally designed around the australian thoroughbred? And that although you can change the gullet, you cant change the shape of the pannels which are set at a narrow - medium gradiant, which is why it tends to be the rounder types that have problems with them. This same saddler told me that he would never advise using a wintec on anything that required wider than a medium gullet as the edges of the panels can effectly dig into the back when weight is put in the saddle.


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## Alimac19 (19 May 2010)

I've just got rid of mine.  I've had it for 3 years and a new instructor watched me for 5 min and told me to get off!!  He pointed out that the saddle was too tight, lopsided, over his shoulders and I didnlt sit quite right on it!.  We've been competing at Prelim Unaff dressage and been doing very well and thinking of affiliating, however new istructor said he's only working to 50% of his ability.  Got out saddle fitter and bought two secondhand saddles, dressage and jumping.  Even the jumping saddle fits further back off his shoulders than the Wintec!  The difference is amazing, lateral work tons better, he's stopping pulling to the left all the time (getting there!).  I think Wintecs are OK for ponies/horses in light work provided that they fit but for any sort of perfomance - no thanks.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (19 May 2010)

Yes, I think the issue is whether the saddle actually FITS the horse; after my post above I had the saddler out today and we fitted a leather saddle with a gel pad, and hey presto, we're a much happier boy now. We did have a bit of face pulling and not wanting to go into the school, but I think that was negative association stuff - he was expecting it to hurt, which is what's been happening up till now, but when I got on the difference was just like wow, so hopefully now we've made significant progress.

It really is important to get the right saddler who can look at both you and your horse and find the right way forward.


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## teddyt (19 May 2010)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Yes, I think the issue is whether the saddle actually FITS the horse; after my post above I had the saddler out today and we fitted a leather saddle with a gel pad, .
		
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If the saddle fits you shouldnt need a gel pad.

I dont care what a saddle is made from, synthetic or leather. Its the design of it that matters most. unfortunately i think wintecs are badly designed for many horses, with withers or flat and round, i have seen problems with both. Either the tree profile is wrong (banana) or the panel not deep enough. To get wither clearance on many horses the gullet has to be too narrow.




			Had the saddler out tonight as the physio said that my horse had a bit of wither pain . . . He has rather high withers so doesnt help lol needs reflocked on the left which was the reason for it slipping slightly to the left whilst riding  duhhhh me lol ... but i thought the wintec cairs didnt need reflocked??!!
		
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The saddle is flocked to fine tune the fit to the horse. Its not that cair doesnt need to be re-flocked, the horse is the dictator of that, but cair cannot be adjusted. So if you have an asymetrical horse (like most are) then theres nothing you can do and the saddle will sit lopsided, causing uneven pressure and hence pain.

I wouldnt use a wintec if i was given one because i have never seen one fit and i think there are much better designed saddles for the same or less cost!


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## Flicker (19 May 2010)

My boy has been in a close contact Wintec for 3 years now and every chiro or saddler that has seen the fit has been happy with it and the state of his back.  He competed with his previous owner over quite terrifyingly huge showjumps with no problems whatsoever.
He also had a Bates leather saddle which I had to get rid of after nearly being launched into orbit with his bucking every time I asked him for canter.
I'm replacing the Wintec with a Thorowgood now, only because it is so uncomfortable for me and I want a GP, rather than a jumping saddle.
I think it's horses for courses really.


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## Rowreach (19 May 2010)

NicoleRobinson said:



			Had the saddler out tonight as the physio said that my horse had a bit of wither pain . . . He has rather high withers so doesnt help lol needs reflocked on the left which was the reason for it slipping slightly to the left whilst riding  duhhhh me lol ... but i thought the wintec cairs didnt need reflocked??!!
		
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Do you mind me asking which saddler you use?  And which physio as well?  I am SO nosey aren't I? [but I have my reasons]


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## FanyDuChamp (19 May 2010)

magic14339 said:



			I slightly disagree with the above statements.  I can respect peoples individual experiences with the wintecs but let me share mine.....I am an equine therapist and work with a wide variety of horses from retirees to top class dressage horses/eventers.  There are some I would say could use a wintec and others that i wouldn't ever ever suggest one being suitable for.  I think the main thing with the cair saddles is that they either sit well on your horse or they don't.  In my experience I have found that on some horses the wintec cair has become the only saddle they truly feel comfortable in and work well in.  This is not just an immediate response but is over a period of time with regular back checks.  With others the cair saddle just doesn't sit right and I would never recomend adjusting this type of saddle much as that can create issues.  I prefer synthetic cair systems to leather as I have heard that there can be technical difficulties with the leather versions which are caused in part by the flexible nature of the leather.

Your experience of your horse in a riding school could also be due to a few other factors worth considering.
1) your horse is being ridden by a variety of riders all with different balance/weight etc.
2) your horse may have a muscular asymmetry which needs to be addressed. - I would not say the wintec cair is very adjustable when it comes to this and would personally use a specifically tailored numnah/gel pad to deal with this.

Maybe worth considering all the factors at play.

I can definately agree that the wintec can be an incorrect saddle for many horses however in my experience I have found there are some where it becomes an invaluable tool.
		
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I agree with the above, both my horses have Wintecs and they are great, no back problems and I can change gullet as they change shape, which Cappy does on a regular basis. However I think it is each to their own.


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## galaxy (19 May 2010)

Wintecs can fit some horses.  I tend to use them on young horses to break them, then once in work for a while get them a leather one...

The CAIR system is not the same as FLAIR airbags systems, it is not adjustable in itself, so yes, to alter the saddle it would need some stuffing.


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## Patches (19 May 2010)

Well....I've just bought a Wintec Cair GP. Not for my horse, she has a lovely Fieldhouse Pro VSD, but for the youngster we've bought and are backing.

I have no intention of having a saddle fitted/made for her at the age of four when she's going to dramatically change shape in the next few months/years with working. 

I intend to have a leather saddle for her, should we keep her, before she turns 6 at the very latest.

That said, I actually think the Wintec will suit her. She measures a medium, so the gullet channel of the saddle will be even down the whole length of the saddle. If you put extra wide head plates in them, you end up with a tapered gullet as you can only widen the front of the saddle. This in turn is likely to make the rear of the saddle rock/roll on your horse's back. 

They have their place. Even the most expensive leather saddle can make a horse sore if it doesn't fit his/her back.


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## NicoleS_007 (19 May 2010)

yea reason for the wintec was because I got my horse as a 4yr (now 7) so seemed a good idea at the time :/ lol but i dont like them 1 bit tbh im going to save up for a new one me thinks 

ermmm the fit of leather saddles confuses me!!!? all the ones i see only come in N/M/W etc no narrow medium! so do they just fit a medium and add more flock??


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## teddyt (19 May 2010)

Patches said:



			Well....I've just bought a Wintec Cair GP. Not for my horse, she has a lovely Fieldhouse Pro VSD, but for the youngster we've bought and are backing.

I have no intention of having a saddle fitted/made for her at the age of four when she's going to dramatically change shape in the next few months/years with working.
		
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But changing the width of the tree is just one of many possible requirements if a horse changes shape. The horse has other muscles and carries fat over other areas than just underneath the tree points! So although the ability to change the width is better than nothing, it doesnt mean anything if the rest of the tree and panel doesnt fit. Unfortunately thats part of the joys of young horses- they often need several saddles in the first couple of years to be comfortable.




Patches said:



			That said, I actually *think *the Wintec will suit her. She measures a medium, so the gullet channel of the saddle will be even down the whole length of the saddle.
		
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Do you _know _ it will suit her? Thinking it will is a different matter! In practice horses dont always follow our hopes, plans and thoughts, annoying and expensive as that is 




Patches said:



			Even the most expensive leather saddle can make a horse sore if it doesn't fit his/her back.
		
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I quite agree


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## Patches (19 May 2010)

I didn't elaborate, so I understand why you might have read that and thought I was being dumb, but, as the saddle fitter put a Wintec 16.6" GP saddle on her back on Monday, and told me it was the best fit for her at this age, then yes...I *think* I can say it should suit her. We already discussed that by next year she'll probably be able to take a 17" but the slightly smaller size will suit her better right now. 

The reason I only  *think* it will suit her is because at this stage she's not been sat on, so obviously I can't say how she will work under saddle in it until the time comes. I have, however, done the best I can to ensure the saddle on her back suits her shape ahead of backing. 

I have gone into it with my eyes open. I am not adverse to spending money on "decent" leather tack as all three of our other ponies are all in well fitted, and regularly checked, leather saddles. Matilda will also be when we've decided whether to keep her long term after she's been backed and in work for a few months. The saddle will be regularly checked, as will her back by my equine osteo...just in the way all of our horses are. 

Having previously bought an expensive leather saddle, only to realise it didn't suit my needs and was worth precious little second hand, I have made this calculated decision to go with a synthetic in the interim. 

Matilda is an ISH x TB, so a relatively fine breed which do tend to do well with the Wintecs. 

Of course, I do also realise the shape of the saddle from front to back is paramount for the fit to a horse as some have flatter backs, some are dippy etc. The whole fit, not just the tree width, was considered when I had Matilda assessed for a saddle.


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## teddyt (19 May 2010)

I wouldnt go as far as to say i thought you were dumb but was just checking! 




			the saddle fitter put a Wintec 16.6" GP saddle on her back on Monday, and told me it was the best fit for her at this age, then yes...I *think* I can say it should suit her. We already discussed that by next year she'll probably be able to take a 17" but the slightly smaller size will suit her better right now.
		
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Would like to say though that the length of saddle a horse can take is dictated by the distance between the back of the shoulder and the last rib. Whilst the overlying muscle and fat will change in a horse of any age this distance wont in an adult horse because the skeleton isnt affected by training, feed, weather, etc. At 4 i would be very surprised if your horse got any longer.


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## Patches (19 May 2010)

Sorry, again I failed to elaborate. 

Saddler said the panels on the Wintec saddles are quite long which is why she really is best right now in a 16.5" one. It was very borderline when trying the 17" Wintec saddle on her back and we decided not to risk it, given that she's a baby. 

If and when we have a leather saddle fitted next year, she thinks we'll be able to go for a 17" then as it won't be a Wintec.


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## teddyt (19 May 2010)

Yes, the wintec panels are long. Its never worth going over the last rib, so definately a sensible choice to go for the smaller size


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## Into Temptation (19 May 2010)

I worship and adore my wintec CC saddles!! all my horses had them, and I will never ever put anything else on any horse I may get in the future


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## Patches (19 May 2010)

teddyt said:



			Yes, the wintec panels are long. Its never worth going over the last rib, so definately a sensible choice to go for the smaller size
		
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That was our thinking too. Saddler said I'd probably get away with it on an established horse, like my 12 year old mare, but we both agreed it wasn't worth the risk on a baby.


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## Donkeymad (19 May 2010)

Yawn - teddyt has said it all for me again.

Into temptation, your temptation to use nothing but Wintecs could well be a very bad temptation.


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## Patches (19 May 2010)

NicoleRobinson said:



			yea reason for the wintec was because I got my horse as a 4yr (now 7) so seemed a good idea at the time :/ lol but i dont like them 1 bit tbh im going to save up for a new one me thinks 

ermmm the fit of leather saddles confuses me!!!? all the ones i see only come in N/M/W etc no narrow medium! so do they just fit a medium and add more flock??
		
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I wouldn't necessarily blame Wintecs as bad per se then as I wouldn't expect the same saddle that fitted your horse at four to fit your horse now.


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## billy2 (19 May 2010)

I always had leather saddles until my veteran started to change shape: after going through 2 in two years my saddler suggested I try a Wintec Pro dressage - the difference in the old lad was amazing! And it lasted him out til his retirement. While we were trying saddles, we also tried the 500 - although built around the same tree it didn't make him anywhere near as comfortable, so I think probably you should treat every saddle as different.


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## chaps89 (19 May 2010)

Can fully see the benefit for use on young horses/horses being broken in (so long as they fit of course)

However, also wouldn't have one even if you paid me. I kept my wintec vsd for about a month before sending it back. Not so much of a problem in how it fitted the horse. But the stirrup bars were far too forward, pushing my seat and balance all out and giving me a horrendous position and I fell off more times in that month than I had done in my 5 years of riding up until that point. And it wasn't just me- I've noticed it alot in other people with their saddles.


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## Patches (19 May 2010)

Yes, personally I don't really like them. They're too deep so it's almost impossible to jump out of the GP saddle without getting a slap up the backside from the cantle when you land.


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## NicoleS_007 (19 May 2010)

Patches said:



			I wouldn't necessarily blame Wintecs as bad per se then as I wouldn't expect the same saddle that fitted your horse at four to fit your horse now.
		
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yea we started with a medium gullet and then was changed to a narrow med, and is checked regularly. I tryed my friends leather saddle on him which is a medium and it was the exact same size/fit as my wintec which has a narrow medium in it!!!


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