# inconsiderate whip use at badminton



## equinim (24 April 2011)

mark todd shouldnt have hit the horse that many times when it was ob so tired.
just to jump the last few fences was it worth it.
hope horse fails vetting 2mrw. 
pride at finishing before horses wellfare.
in racing jockeys get repramanded for hitting tired horses


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## kit279 (24 April 2011)

I doubt very much it was pride - it was much more likely that he smacked the horse to remind it to do a good jump over the last log in the quarry and not fall.  If he hadn't hit it, the horse might very well have had another dodgy jump and fallen.


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## teagreen (24 April 2011)

Now people may see why we compare racing with eventing.

Those horses were finishing extremely tired - the majority of riders got straight off, got the tack off and they poured water over them. They did the same thing at the Grand National get it was considered cruel, how is this any different? 

I saw several horses today getting several sharp reminders with the whip, including very tired horses galloping on the flat who were getting whipped to go faster towards the end. And Todd hitting his too. Where does this differ from racing? They guy towards the end on the chestnut horse was sure using his spurs, why are they not considered cruel like the whip is in racing?

Horses were finishing lame, pulling up lame from hitting fences, getting taken away in the ambulance - but people are quite happy to watch this, yet they say they can't watch racing 'for all those horrible falls and injuries'. 

Very hypocritical of the horse world. This was on the red button so will have been watched by few and won't end up with a story on the Daily Mail - but really, it isn't any different. I'm not anti-eventing, but I loathe how racing is having to put up with all this stick and having to make changes, yet people are quite happy to watch this with the same 'welfare issues' that racing apparently has and say nothing. It isn't fair.


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## NinjaPony (24 April 2011)

Hardly  He gave it 3 smacks, to make sure it got over the fence safely. After that he didn't touch it with his whip. Yes, horse was tired, but not exhausted, and picked up on the dowhill run. Careful riding got him home, and he jumped off straight away to cool him down. Not very pretty, but did the job. This is a young horse, and probably hasn't done a course at this level before.
Now Frank Osholt on the other hand was VERY lucky to get home, and should have pulled up. 
I have repeated what I said before.
I don't condone the use of the whip, but Mark Todd was hardly beating him round the course. If he hadn't given him a smack, they might have come to serious grief at that fence, then we would be complaining that they had fallen!
For what its worth, I am not against racing either entirely, but I think the number of runners in the national causes problems.


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## rosie fronfelen (24 April 2011)

teagreen,iwas expecting this hypocrisy-i'm not anti- eventing either which is a bloody wonder.


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## equinim (24 April 2011)

kit279 said:



			I doubt very much it was pride - it was much more likely that he smacked the horse to remind it to do a good jump over the last log in the quarry and not fall.  If he hadn't hit it, the horse might very well have had another dodgy jump and fallen.
		
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then pull it up after it had got over that fence instead of riding it on to finish.
maybe sponsors would have not liked it if not finished. 
thats life horses welfare comes first (or should do)


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## ruth83 (24 April 2011)

Mark Todd didn't use the whip until he was sure the horse was ok from the previous fence. The whip was needed to make sure, as has already been said, that the horse cleared the next fence without incident. Would have been crueller not to use it and risk a very bad fall.


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## NinjaPony (24 April 2011)

If he had been wacking the horse all the way to the finish, then I would be up in arms. But he didn't. I don't think 3 smacks counts as abusive whip use.


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## amandap (24 April 2011)

Sounds like abuse of horses not misuse of anything inanimate to me. 
Do these whips have to be 'pain free' like the ones in racing?

Pushing horses to win a bloomin competition is something I don't think is acceptable. Humans can push themselves as much as they want but a horse cannot be described as a consenting partner imo.


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## amandap (24 April 2011)

ruth83 said:



			Mark Todd didn't use the whip until he was sure the horse was ok from the previous fence. The whip was needed to make sure, as has already been said, that the horse cleared the next fence without incident. Would have been crueller not to use it and risk a very bad fall.
		
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I don't buy this I'm afraid. Perhaps we should have someone whip human athletes to make sure they 'do the job' ? If a horse needs a 'whip' to jump safely then something is very wrong imo and we should be asking if what we are expecting of them is fair, safe and reasonable...


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## Over2You (24 April 2011)

equinim said:



			mark todd shouldnt have hit the horse that many times when it was ob so tired.
just to jump the last few fences was it worth it.
hope horse fails vetting 2mrw. 
pride at finishing before horses wellfare.
in racing jockeys get repramanded for hitting tired horses
		
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I agree that there were far too many instances of horses being abused with the whip at Badminton. However, to say jockeys get reprimanded in racing for abusing the whip is untrue. The bans are ludicrous. Five days or a week at most. As is the fact that many a time, the offending jockey is allowed to keep his/her winnings (like Grand National winner Jason Maguire). Not much of a deterrent in other words. In fact racing makes a mockery of its rules by letting jockeys off scot-free for breaking them.


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## CastleMouse (24 April 2011)

Mark Todd hit the horse as a reminder - It's not safe to let the horse get 'economic' with his jumping and could result in a nasty fall.

With Mark, the horse comes first; I have seen him retire horse's when he felt it was best for them.


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## teagreen (24 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			I agree that there were far too many instances of horses being abused with the whip at Badminton. However, to say jockeys get reprimanded in racing for abusing the whip is untrue. The bans are ludicrous. Five days or a week at most. As is the fact that many a time, the offending jockey is allowed to keep his/her winnings (like Grand National winner Jason Maguire). Not much of a deterrent in other words. In fact racing makes a mockery of its rules by letting jockeys off scot-free for breaking them.
		
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He didn't mark the horse in the GN though - the horse showed absolutely no ill effects whatsoever from being hit! It didn't come back bloody and torn, it was fine. It returned the same as these event horses returned. Racing bans every jockey who absues the whip, they get a ban that reflects how much they used it - but just because they get a ban doesn't mean they mark the horse. The horses show no ill effects, believe me, I've worked with them! If they mark them, it's a different story.

I want to make it clear, I can see why Todd used his whip. I'm not anti-whips at all. I can see why strong bits are used and why they have spurs etc etc. What I'm saying is that if racing has to change its rules, they don't have to look far to see that the exact same thing is happening in other sports.


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## NinjaPony (24 April 2011)

No, he made a mistake at the fence before, and lost a lot of impulsion. Todd gave him a smack to make sure they could get over it. You seem to be suggesting he was wacking it the whole way round amandap.
I agree about some hypocrisisy though.


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## amandap (24 April 2011)

I'm just wondering what the difference is between hitting a horse with a whip to jump 'safely' and hitting a horse in the face with a rope clip to keep yourself safe is? 

Must say I don't condone either but just another example of the incongruous thinking sometimes in the horseworld.


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## amandap (24 April 2011)

NinjaPony said:



			You seem to be suggesting he was wacking it the whole way round amandap.
		
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I didn't mean to. I was commenting on what has been written about whip use in general and the tiredness of the horses etc. I should have made that clearer, I'm sorry. I didn't see any of it. I stopped watching eventing after I saw the horse that spiked himself with the shaft of the fence number and bled to death.


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## Sussexbythesea (24 April 2011)

I thought the horse was really tired (hence why he lost impulsion - not a misbehaviour) and very at risk of a rotational fall - for me it wasn't a matter of the whip but my heart was in my mouth for the last stretch of the course as that horse dropped a lot of legs and barely got over some of those fences - he should have been pulled up imo.


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## LCH611 (24 April 2011)

amandap said:



			I'm just wondering what the difference is between hitting a horse with a whip to jump 'safely' and hitting a horse in the face with a rope clip to keep yourself safe is? 

Must say I don't condone either but just another example of the incongruous thinking sometimes in the horseworld. 

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encouraging a horse to jump safely reduces the likelihood of it falling on you and causing a fatal accident. Hitting a horse in the face with a rope clip is presumabaly an act of temper.


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## NinjaPony (24 April 2011)

I agree that some horses, including Todd's were looking tired, but Land Vision had his ears pricked, and after the incident at the quarry, perked up enough to get home without being chased. It was his first 4* course, so he did pretty well. Doesn't make perhaps pretty viewing, but was necessary. 
There were some very tired horses though, who I think should have been pulled up. And I think Karen O'Connor should have pulled up after she got her horse over the fence, not carried on.


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## Over2You (24 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			Now people may see why we compare racing with eventing.

Those horses were finishing extremely tired - the majority of riders got straight off, got the tack off and they poured water over them. They did the same thing at the Grand National get it was considered cruel, how is this any different? 

I saw several horses today getting several sharp reminders with the whip, including very tired horses galloping on the flat who were getting whipped to go faster towards the end. And Todd hitting his too. Where does this differ from racing? They guy towards the end on the chestnut horse was sure using his spurs, why are they not considered cruel like the whip is in racing?

Horses were finishing lame, pulling up lame from hitting fences, getting taken away in the ambulance - but people are quite happy to watch this, yet they say they can't watch racing 'for all those horrible falls and injuries'. 

Very hypocritical of the horse world. This was on the red button so will have been watched by few and won't end up with a story on the Daily Mail - but really, it isn't any different. I'm not anti-eventing, but I loathe how racing is having to put up with all this stick and having to make changes, yet people are quite happy to watch this with the same 'welfare issues' that racing apparently has and say nothing. It isn't fair.
		
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Out of the 77 horses to take part in the cross country, there was not a single fatality. Yet, the number of horses who took part in both the Scottish and English National was 70 and 4 horses perished. Yes, there were nasty falls at Badminton and numerous occasions of the whip being abused, but at least there were no dead horses!


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## teagreen (24 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			Out of the 77 horses to take part in the cross country, there was not a single fatality. Yet, the number of horses who took part in both the Scottish and English National was 70 and 4 horses perished. Yes, there were nasty falls at Badminton and numerous occasions of the whip being abused, but at least there were no dead horses!
		
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There could easily have been. Might still be, I haven't heard how the fallers today were, hopefully fine and just lame. Hundreds of horses race everday, if hundreds of eventers evented everyday you'd see similar numbers killed. 

There could be no horses killed in either National for the next 5 years, and 2 could die at Burghley and 2 at Blair Castle this year. You just don't know.


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## Orangehorse (24 April 2011)

The horse jumped five more fences after the stumble at the quarry and there was no more use of the whip.  Why be allowed to carry a whip if you can't use it when needed?  Is it really better to kick them hard in the ribs than use a stick, which would be the alternative.


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## teagreen (24 April 2011)

ORANGEHORSE said:



			The horse jumped five more fences after the stumble at the quarry and there was no more use of the whip.  Why be allowed to carry a whip if you can't use it when needed?  Is it really better to kick them hard in the ribs than use a stick, which would be the alternative.
		
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Exactly. And it is exactly the same for racing.


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## Over2You (24 April 2011)

teagreen said:



*He didn't mark the horse in the GN though - the horse showed absolutely no ill effects whatsoever from being hit!* It didn't come back bloody and torn, it was fine. It returned the same as these event horses returned. Racing bans every jockey who absues the whip, they get a ban that reflects how much they used it - but just because they get a ban doesn't mean they mark the horse. The horses show no ill effects, believe me, I've worked with them! If they mark them, it's a different story.

I want to make it clear, I can see why Todd used his whip. I'm not anti-whips at all. I can see why strong bits are used and why they have spurs etc etc. What I'm saying is that if racing has to change its rules, they don't have to look far to see that the exact same thing is happening in other sports.
		
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So barely being able to walk and needing *OXYGEN* are not indicative of being pushed to the limit? Or all the little thug's whipping might not have contributed to the horse ending up in such a state?


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## teagreen (24 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			So barely being able to walk and needing *OXYGEN* are not indicative of being pushed to the limit? Or all the little thug's whipping might not have contributed to the horse ending up in such a state?
		
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Er, did you watch Badminton today?


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## amandap (24 April 2011)

Is dead horses the measure as to how 'good' 'kind' 'safe' a sport is or isn't then? 

I'm lost for words for once.  Probably for the best.


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## Katie_B (24 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			Now people may see why we compare racing with eventing.

Those horses were finishing extremely tired - the majority of riders got straight off, got the tack off and they poured water over them. They did the same thing at the Grand National get it was considered cruel, how is this any different? 

I saw several horses today getting several sharp reminders with the whip, including very tired horses galloping on the flat who were getting whipped to go faster towards the end. And Todd hitting his too. Where does this differ from racing? They guy towards the end on the chestnut horse was sure using his spurs, why are they not considered cruel like the whip is in racing?

Horses were finishing lame, pulling up lame from hitting fences, getting taken away in the ambulance - but people are quite happy to watch this, yet they say they can't watch racing 'for all those horrible falls and injuries'. 

Very hypocritical of the horse world. This was on the red button so will have been watched by few and won't end up with a story on the Daily Mail - but really, it isn't any different. I'm not anti-eventing, but I loathe how racing is having to put up with all this stick and having to make changes, yet people are quite happy to watch this with the same 'welfare issues' that racing apparently has and say nothing. It isn't fair.
		
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What evidence do you have that all those protesting against racing are pro eventing? In my experience, those who strongly disagree with racing are those who believe that a horse should never take part in anything that could ever be considered dangerous.

Whilst I do agree that there were defiantly some incredibly tired horses today, a point that needs to be looked at for the future, I believe you lose the credibility of your argument by assuming that the opinions of a small majority are held by everybody involved with eventing.

ETA: Have just seen the rest of your replies and may have misunderstood the point of your initial post, but please dont assume that welfare issues are not looked at seriously in eventing also, I'm sure the ground jury will be having a word with a few of those who were competing today.


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## NinjaPony (24 April 2011)

Mark Todd only hit the horse 3 times in the whole course, to get him over a jump to get him safely over a jump after a near-miss. Then, he left him well alone. The winning jockey of the National used to whip many times, enough to earn him a ban.
I think that is the difference, regarding whip use anyway.


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## trick123 (24 April 2011)

I'm not anti use of a crop at all, if a horse is being naughty or needs to be kept straight then the appropriate use of the whip is necessary, but to smack a brave extremely tired horse goes beyond the pale with me. I don't care if it is to win a team gold medal, I think it is abuse and if it happened lower down the levels then the offender would be penalised in some way. How can we teach children correct welfare of the horse when they see celebrity riders treat their horses in that way. I know the horses are wonderfully looked after they have completed but it made me cringe and I am not a softie in any way.


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## kirstyl (24 April 2011)

I didn't see Mark Todd's round so can't comment on that.  I did however watch Emily Baldwin's two rounds and felt uncomfortable with the amount of whip she used plus a lot of mouth hauling.  I am by no means anti whip, but I felt (maybe wrongly) that her use of whip was due to anger and frustration, which in my book, is completely unacceptable.  Fantastic coverage though on the red button, and really enjoyed the commentary from Mike Tucker and Ian Stark and all their visiting commentating competitors.  Good job BBC!


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## Over2You (24 April 2011)

amandap said:



			Is dead horses the measure as to how 'good' 'kind' 'safe' a sport is or isn't then? 

I'm lost for words for once.  Probably for the best.
		
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I am not saying I am totally for eventing. There are a lot of things I do not like about it either. However, it is definitely more horse friendly than racing. They go around one-at-a-time, obstacles are jumped from slower speeds, and more and more fences are being built with frangible pins. Plus, the steeple chasing and roads and tracks phase has been removed too. I also brought up the number of deaths to make a point. That despite fewer horses participating in both Nationals, there were four deaths compared to Badminton's none. I use death rates to show how dangerous sports are - not the other way round.


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## LCH611 (24 April 2011)

amandap said:



			I didn't mean to. I was commenting on what has been written about whip use in general and the tiredness of the horses etc. I should have made that clearer, I'm sorry. I didn't see any of it. .
		
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Well if you had actually watched it you would have seen that the horse wasn't thrashed as some people seem to be implying, it was given a sharp reminder to pick up over one fence and thereafter finished with its ears pricked. Toddy has evidently pulled up horses in thw past when he didn't think they should continue and I don't think many would doubt the incredible feel he has for a horse. If he felt that it was safe & not compromising the horse's welfare to continue I think it was fair enough - plenty of athletes (equine & otherwise) are tired at the end of a competition but that doesn't mean that it is wrong to try and achieve an optimum performance? I frequently ask my horses to do more than they might want to if left to their own devices (and have been known to use a whip vigorously if my horse thinks it maight like to nap into the path of an on-coming car for example), and the pay-off is that they get jolly well looked after.

The ground jury will decide if the tired horses are fit to jump tomorrow.


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## welshwizzard (24 April 2011)

amandap said:



			I'm sorry. I didn't see any of it. I stopped watching eventing after I saw the horse that spiked himself with the shaft of the fence number and bled to death.
		
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Sorry, but how can you comment if you didn't see it? 

from H&H news:
Falls and injury update

There were a number of holds due to falls during the day.

Ireland's Elizabeth Power fell when Kilpatrick River left a leg at the Irish Sport Horse Studbook Huntsmans Close. She regained consciousness and was airlifted to Frenchay Hospital for a detailed examination.

Fellow Irish rider Camilla Speirs (Portersize Just A Jiff) had a fall at the L200 Pick Ups and was ambulanced off course. She was taken to an on site medical centre and subsequently to Frenchay for further examination.

Ingrid Klimke (FRH Butts Abraxxas) fell earlier in the day, at the gate into Huntsmans Close, and sustained an injury to her leg. She was taken to Frenchay for a precautionary X-ray to her knee.

_*The latest information is that no horses were seriously injured. 
*_
BTW wooden posts aren't used any more.
and Mark Todd is now in the lead


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## kickonchaps (24 April 2011)

kirstyl said:



			I didn't see Mark Todd's round so can't comment on that.  I did however watch Emily Baldwin's two rounds and felt uncomfortable with the amount of whip she used plus a lot of mouth hauling.  I am by no means anti whip, but I felt (maybe wrongly) that her use of whip was due to anger and frustration, which in my book, is completely unacceptable.  Fantastic coverage though on the red button, and really enjoyed the commentary from Mike Tucker and Ian Stark and all their visiting commentating competitors.  Good job BBC!
		
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Totally agree. 

My own opinion is if a rider is balanced and kind to the horse for the whole round, and gives it a good run, and a slap in front of a fence when it's backing off, I think thats completely justified use of the whip. I'm sure horses would far rather have Mark Todd ride them and give them a slap to say 'come on buddy, pick up!!' than someone out of balance and hauling on their mouth for 12 minutes. There are far worse ways to treat a horse than to give it a slap and send it forward. Equally it's far better to smack a tired horse to make it wake up and get over a fence than to leave it alone and have it very honestly have a crack anyway, not pick up and have a rotational fall.


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## Elf On A Shelf (24 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			I agree that there were far too many instances of horses being abused with the whip at Badminton. However, to say jockeys get reprimanded in racing for abusing the whip is untrue. The bans are ludicrous. Five days or a week at most. As is the fact that many a time, the offending jockey is allowed to keep his/her winnings (like Grand National winner Jason Maguire). Not much of a deterrent in other words. In fact racing makes a mockery of its rules by letting jockeys off scot-free for breaking them.
		
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Over2You you really have NO clue as to how racing works do you? You can incure a 10day whip ban in racing. If you are given 24 or more days whip ban a season you are banned for anopther month I think and sent on a course all about how to use your stick correctly. 

Whip bans not much of a deterrent? Jockey's that get known for incuring bans frequently don't get used as often as OWNERS don't like it. Therefore said jockey gets less rides. Also do you know how much a jockey earns at a day at the races? They get paid about £100 a ride once the horse is under starters orders, whether they win or fail to complete is irrelevent. A good jockey could get 5-6 rides a day so in 1 days ban off of the track he is losing £500-£600. If you tot this up to the length of the ban then these guys are losing a LOT of money. Racing is their only income, they don't get paid hourly rates, or work in shifts. They get paid for the job they do and a jockey that is never on the track due to bans is a very poor jockey indeed. So if £500 a day isn't incentive enough to try their hardest to win whilst not breaking the rules then they really do have a screw loose.

I've not watched Badminton, eventing really isn't my thing but I am glad that this has come to light. Eventing has a very selective set of viewers - horsey people. Racing is open to the whole wide world and every nook and cranny is exposed for scrutiny. What horsey people may accept as normal in eventing Mr Joe Bloggs would be up in arms about - but never will be as it isn't so much in the public eye. If eventing opened up it's doors and made normal people want to watch it then I believe that their rules will soon become as strict as racings.


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## Jennyharvey (24 April 2011)

amandap said:



			Sounds like abuse of horses not misuse of anything inanimate to me. 
Do these whips have to be 'pain free' like the ones in racing?

Pushing horses to win a bloomin competition is something I don't think is acceptable. Humans can push themselves as much as they want but a horse cannot be described as a consenting partner imo. 

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I agree.  if a horse needs a reminder to jump the fence, then maybe hes getting tired, especially if he made a mistake at the previous.  I didnt see the horse compete tho, so cant comment on what actually occured.  

I watched about ten minutes of the XC, then turned it off.  I hate to see horses whipped, either as a repremand for a stumble, or punishment because the horse is trying his hardest, especially nearing the end of the course when the horse is clearly exhausted.  I think in eventing, horses are often pushed to the limit, so i think its unfair for the horse to be whipped in any circumstance. I understand that it may be better to hit a horse than have it fall, but i would like to know just how effective the whip is to actually get a horse over the jump tho.  I would like to have a horse move away from my leg better, so i never had to whip it over anything.  

Plus, the amount of horses being pulled in the mouth because they are 'strong' annoys me.  Surely a horse who is trained in dressage should be able to come off a much lighter aid than being hauled in the mouth?  And i dont agree with the adrenaline theory.  Just because a horse is high, doesnt mean he cant listen to his rider.


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## kickonchaps (24 April 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			I agree.  if a horse needs a reminder to jump the fence, then maybe hes getting tired, especially if he made a mistake at the previous.  I didnt see the horse compete tho, so cant comment on what actually occured.  

I watched about ten minutes of the XC, then turned it off.  I hate to see horses whipped, either as a repremand for a stumble, or punishment because the horse is trying his hardest, especially nearing the end of the course when the horse is clearly exhausted.  I think in eventing, horses are often pushed to the limit, so i think its unfair for the horse to be whipped in any circumstance. I understand that it may be better to hit a horse than have it fall, but i would like to know just how effective the whip is to actually get a horse over the jump tho.  I would like to have a horse move away from my leg better, so i never had to whip it over anything.  

Plus, the amount of horses being pulled in the mouth because they are 'strong' annoys me.  Surely a horse who is trained in dressage should be able to come off a much lighter aid than being hauled in the mouth?  And i dont agree with the adrenaline theory.  Just because a horse is high, doesnt mean he cant listen to his rider.
		
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Have you ever actually ridden a fit eventer??


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## kirstyl (24 April 2011)

kickonchaps said:



			Have you ever actually ridden a fit eventer??
		
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Well said!!


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## angelish (24 April 2011)

OFFS grow up and get a life 

can any of you sit there and say you are not even slightly cruel in anyway to your own horses and never have been ? 

what do you all want in life ,will we just call for all riding to be banned as it is cruel ,then we can just feed em up in fields then eat them eh


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## trick123 (24 April 2011)

There were some lovely rounds today with bright perky horses, but I'm sorry I do not agree that an extremely tired horse should be smacked to make it jump a fence


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## welshwizzard (24 April 2011)

pastie2 said:



			First it was the Grand National then it was the Scottish National now its Badminton. Really are any of you meally mouthed anti anything that asks the ultimate question from a horse that has been very well prepared and fit, to do a job with a rider who is one of the top event riders in the world, in a position to voice your rediculous opinions?  You are a joke, all of you, armchair jockies and armchair riders who most probably wouldnt know how to see a stride into a cross pole!!
		
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Hit the nail on the head there Pastie


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## Elf On A Shelf (24 April 2011)

Ah but then you also have the case of - do you ever see jockey's hauling their racehorses heads off, sawing side to side before every jump? Nope!Plus racehorses are ridden mostly in snaffles, some are ridden in Dextors but not as many as you would think. You have to get permission from the vets to run a racehorse in anything other. No such rules exist in eventing that I am aware of but pleasre feel free to correct me on that one. Same with a lot of these young show jumpers these days - it's all about hauling around and smacking rather than sitting quietly and asking. All you have to do is watch John, Michael or Geoff in the ring to see a true master at work - although I do think that Geoff looks like a christmas pudding on a horse


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## Jennyharvey (24 April 2011)

trick123 said:



			There were some lovely rounds today with bright perky horses, but I'm sorry I do not agree that an extremely tired horse should be smacked to make it jump a fence
		
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Exactly.


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## Jennyharvey (24 April 2011)

kickonchaps said:



			Have you ever actually ridden a fit eventer??
		
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Long time ago.  But he was well enough schooled to NOT need pulled in the mouth.  Its up to us to put brakes on our horses, not just pull on their mouth when the brakes fail.


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## amage (24 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			I agree that there were far too many instances of horses being abused with the whip at Badminton. However, to say jockeys get reprimanded in racing for abusing the whip is untrue. The bans are ludicrous. Five days or a week at most. As is the fact that many a time, the offending jockey is allowed to keep his/her winnings (like Grand National winner Jason Maguire). Not much of a deterrent in other words. In fact racing makes a mockery of its rules by letting jockeys off scot-free for breaking them.
		
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hardly scot free....serious loss of earnings! and actually there is calls for severe whip abuse to lose a winning jockey a race so that may come in the future!


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## chestnut cob (24 April 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			I understand that it may be better to hit a horse than have it fall, but i would like to know just how effective the whip is to actually get a horse over the jump tho.  I would like to have a horse move away from my leg better, so i never had to whip it over anything.
		
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Maybe Mark Todd needs some lessons from the HHO forum on how to get his horse moving away from his leg better then... PMSL.  Are you really suggesting 4* event horses don't move away from the leg?!  If you've got a horse who isn't quite off the leg, what do you do.. yes, you give him a smack to wake him up.  You cannot seriously think that when a horse gets to this level, something is missing in the basic training?!  It would have fallen apart long ago if that were the case... 

I watched all of the "controversial" rounds this afternoon and didn't see anything concerning.  It certainly can't be claimed that the horse was "whipped", he just had a reminder.




			Plus, the amount of horses being pulled in the mouth because they are 'strong' annoys me.  Surely a horse who is trained in dressage should be able to come off a much lighter aid than being hauled in the mouth?  And i dont agree with the adrenaline theory.  Just because a horse is high, doesnt mean he cant listen to his rider.
		
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In theory it would be lovely if all horses could be ridden in a snaffle at all times but in reality that isn't the case.  The horses I saw today simply looked keen and fit!


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## kit279 (24 April 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			I agree.  if a horse needs a reminder to jump the fence, then maybe hes getting tired, especially if he made a mistake at the previous.  I didnt see the horse compete tho, so cant comment on what actually occured.  

I watched about ten minutes of the XC, then turned it off.  I hate to see horses whipped, either as a repremand for a stumble, or punishment because the horse is trying his hardest, especially nearing the end of the course when the horse is clearly exhausted.  I think in eventing, horses are often pushed to the limit, so i think its unfair for the horse to be whipped in any circumstance. I understand that it may be better to hit a horse than have it fall, but i would like to know just how effective the whip is to actually get a horse over the jump tho.  I would like to have a horse move away from my leg better, so i never had to whip it over anything.  

Plus, the amount of horses being pulled in the mouth because they are 'strong' annoys me.  Surely a horse who is trained in dressage should be able to come off a much lighter aid than being hauled in the mouth?  And i dont agree with the adrenaline theory.  Just because a horse is high, doesnt mean he cant listen to his rider.
		
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I didn't see any horses whipped as punishment today TBH and, in the nicest possible way, I pretty much disagree with everything above!  I think you'd feel incredibly differently if you had a sit on some of these very fit, very strong eventers!  I've seen some very meek and mild dressage horses become completely deaf to their riders out hunting - event horses for the most part love their job and they absolutely run on adrenaline.  If you are on adrenaline, you will be a very different person to the one sitting at your computer currently!

A very wise person once told me that riding a horse is a bit like driving a car.  If everything goes well, it's possible to drive with the gears and never touch the brake.  But in an emergency situation, you have to use the brake.


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## sonjafoers (24 April 2011)

angelish said:



			OFFS grow up and get a life 

can any of you sit there and say you are not even slightly cruel in anyway to your own horses and never have been ?
		
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Not me! My horse took off with me xc last week, flat out at every fence the bugger! Completely unsafe, I don't carry a whip so yes I hauled her in the mouth and guess what.....she took no notice at all


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## teapot (24 April 2011)

I've seen worse in riding schools that happens on a daily basis. 

I don't think I saw any whip abuse today, just timely reminders over what is the toughest course in the world. Which would you rather? No whip use and more horse halls, or the odd slap?


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## kickonchaps (24 April 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			Long time ago.  But he was well enough schooled to NOT need pulled in the mouth.  Its up to us to put brakes on our horses, not just pull on their mouth when the brakes fail.
		
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No one gets in a car intending to have a car accident but it still happens. No one gets on a horse to ride it round Badminton thinking they'll lose control into a fence, but it happens, and just like its not good for a car to slam the brakes on suddenly, it's not good for a horse to yank on its mouth, but both are preferable to an accident. 

Can you honestly say you've never experienced the feeling of a well schooled horse, snaffle mouth in every way, suddenly getting a bit overexcited on a stubble field and p***ing off?! I doubt you sat there politely half halting as you continued into the next county


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## Jesstickle (24 April 2011)

I watched every round and saw very little of concern.

Do you honestly think that any of the riders who got there today did so by bullying and beating their horses? Really? All I saw today were horses who clearly love the job they're doing. 

And as to how any of us (assuming none of us are riding at 4* level) can say they should be better schooled etc. Well it beggars belief. Clearly they are impeccably schooled. You can see this from their dressage. Horses get excited about going XC and get strong. They get excited because they enjoy it. They are big and fit. I wouldn't be able to hold them in a snaffle so I don't expect anyone else to either.

Do you all tell your doctors you know better than them, your dentists, your accountants? These guys are the professionals. The people at the top of the industry. The fact that they're out doing it at this level means they know better than us. If we were so great we'd be there too. If you all know best why don't you go next year and show us how to do it without a whip, without a martingale and in a snaffle.

I'll look at for you 

p.s. I'm not anti racing either. I think the GN is a bit of an exceptional case in an otherwise fairly well regulated industry where injury is mercifully rare. Just MO though. I worked at a flat yard and the only serious injuries we ever had were at home when our horses ran in to fences etc.


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## sleepingdragon10 (24 April 2011)

chestnut cob said:



			Maybe Mark Todd needs some lessons from the HHO forum on how to get his horse moving away from his leg better then... PMSL.  Are you really suggesting 4* event horses don't move away from the leg?!  If you've got a horse who isn't quite off the leg, what do you do.. yes, you give him a smack to wake him up.  You cannot seriously think that when a horse gets to this level, something is missing in the basic training?!  It would have fallen apart long ago if that were the case... 

I watched all of the "controversial" rounds this afternoon and didn't see anything concerning.  It certainly can't be claimed that the horse was "whipped", he just had a reminder.



In theory it would be lovely if all horses could be ridden in a snaffle at all times but in reality that isn't the case.  The horses I saw today simply looked keen and fit!
		
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Absolutely agree! There are a fair few people who need to get back in their prams..........honestly, do you have nothing better to do?


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## Chloe..x (24 April 2011)

Are people really moaning about the types of bit in a horse?!

Seriously, I'll throw you on my eventer in a nice little snaffle and see if you come back alive...
Brakes are needed especially on a course like Badminton as there are lots of galloping straights with quite complex combinations in-between. So one minute you need to spur the horse on to make up the time on the stretches and then you need the horse to come back and listen and respect the fences and in many horse a snaffle just doesn't suffice as a sufficient method.


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## Chloe..x (24 April 2011)

Also, I completely back Toddy up on the use of his whip, toward the end of a cross country horse, your horse is tiring and doesn't give the fences as much respect and height as they do on the first 3/4 so a sharp tap or so with the whip reminds them to keep their mind on the job for safety most importantly, you only have to see Oli Townend at the quarry who's fall could of been alot more serious at a more "upright" fence


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## Bedlam (24 April 2011)

Perhaps you should take this up with Yogi Breisner? I heard him lecturing U18 event riders earlier this year on when to pull up your horse. If your horse is running out of steam he advises 3 stage of action. A few sharp kicks, collecting into the bridle and seeing if they take it followed by 3 sharp smacks behind the leg. If there's no response you should pull up even if you only have 1 fence left to jump - it's not unheard of for horses to fall at the last.

I suspect that if Marks' horse hadn't picked up in response to his whip he would have circled away and retired. He's the one sitting on the horse - only he knows what he can feel. The horse finished well and happily. I'm not sure I get the problem with this particular round.

There were other things that I commented on - Emily at the water appeared to smack with frustration at the water. Only 3 times - fair dos, but I think once a pair have lost confidence in each other to that extent at that level it might be wise to retire. Caroline Ryan Bell looked very cross with Rathmoyle after she fell - I thought a pat and a kind word would have better than grabbing the reins and sulking off.

That German guy - Jeez!

What a difference experience can make - Opposition Buzz was spectacular and full of running, and Mary King is just a start.

A shame that Pippa didn't run. I understand what she said about deciding not to run Mirage D'Elle because she felt she wasn't in the running after dressage and that she herself didn't need the mileage, but I think she misses the point a little. At Badminton we have the world's eyes on us. Many people watch Badminton that never see another event all year, and they expect to see the big names run. There was also a long wait list of people who would have given their back teeth to run. Badminton isn't really like any other event and I think to withdraw on anything other than veterinary/medical grounds after the dressage is a bit of a poor show.

Those are some of my musings......


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## Tinkerbee (24 April 2011)

teapot said:



			I've seen worse in riding schools that happens on a daily basis. 

I don't think I saw any whip abuse today, just timely reminders over what is the toughest course in the world. Which would you rather? No whip use and more horse halls, or the odd slap?
		
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Exactly what I was going to say!

I've seen far worse carried out by average riders...

I'm not sure if there's something in the water but everyone's common sense seems to have vanished in the past few years


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## Jennyharvey (24 April 2011)

pastie2 said:



			Have you ever ridden round Badminton or even aspired to Novice eventing? In fact all of you who are critical about the riding at Badminton, could you do it? Would you have the knowledge or the balls to even attempt too? If not then shut up. You are all nit picking and loving it. I would love to see some of you on a horse, let alone a fit horse prepared and keen to do its job over a course like that. Perhaps you should put yourselves forward and offer your knowledge to the likes of Mark Todd, I am sure he would welcome some contructive advice from you.
		
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lol why would i want to ride round badminton.  

sarah Getchell in this vid with her Dr cooks bridle.  Might not be badminton, but not a bad round xc and jumping.  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJSninXjfVM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsPMxt2xRZU&feature=related
I guess it depends on where you believe the brakes are on a horse.  If you believe the brakes are in the mouth, fair enough.  There is more to stopping a horse than pulling on his head.  But i guess that because ive never ridden around badminton, that i havnt got a clue about it my opinions are invalid.  Fair enough.


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## Caledonia (24 April 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			There is more to stopping a horse than pulling on his head.  But i guess that because ive never ridden around badminton, that i havnt got a clue about it my opinions are invalid.  Fair enough.
		
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Because all horses come off the same production line and have a handy handbook? 

Really, wake up..........


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## muffinino (24 April 2011)

amandap said:



			I'm just wondering what the difference is between hitting a horse with a whip to jump 'safely' and hitting a horse in the face with a rope clip to keep yourself safe is? 

Must say I don't condone either but just another example of the incongruous thinking sometimes in the horseworld. 

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Are you serious? How on Earth can you compare giving an experienced horse a smack to make it concentrate to beating a horse around the face with a metal clip? If you can't see the difference between the two then maybe you need to have a sit and think about it.

Come on now, a smack to remind a horse to concentrate & buck their ideas up in a very distracting arena is hardly going to have an ill-effect. I cannot specifically comment on the 'Mark Todd is a horse beater' nonsense that is being touted here as I left before his round (needed to get home to see to my beast). However, having seen him pull horses up in the past when he thought they were too tired, and knowing that he has competed at the highest level in two disciplines for more years than I have been alive, I would trust him over pretty much anybody to be able to judge his horse correctly.
What I saw in general were fit, extremely well cared for athletes who were enthusiastic about what they were doing, to the point where some of them needed a bit of reminding who is on control . Some did look tired towards the end, however it was quite humid for parts of today so maybe that has something to do with it. In general I would trust the riders to know their mounts well enough to be able to judge whether or not they would get home. They may have felt different to how they looked, which can sometimes happen, and perhaps the riders knew they would be able to do it. After all, their lives are also at risk if the horse is tired and makes mistakes.


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## McLurker (24 April 2011)

one answer - money
how much was the prize fund?
Money and greed - thats why horse racers or event gorses are abused - end of


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## paulmac (25 April 2011)

It amazes me the c***some people spout on this forum. We have probably the best riders in the world competing on some fabulous horses. Vets and officials are on hand to ensure that horses are fit to compete and are not abused or ill teated. The course is designed to challenge the fitness and skill of both the horse and rider. It is not advisable for any rider to bring home an injured or exhausted horse because it will fail the vetting and not make the final stage of the competition.

I have watched Mark Todd's round and I have no problems at all with his use of the whip. I see worse at almost every horse show where loads of mediocre riders use strong bits with double reins and not a clue how to use them.  

Why don't you just sit back and appreciate the excellent riding, and courage of horses and riders. I only wish I had the skill these riders have. Mr Todd can come and ride my horse any time


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## CastleMouse (25 April 2011)

We'll see when the FEI list of yellow cards issued is published at a later stage. The officials WILL issue a yellow card if they feel that it's necessary.


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## Ranyhyn (25 April 2011)

trick123 said:



			There were some lovely rounds today with bright perky horses, but I'm sorry I do not agree that an extremely tired horse should be smacked to make it jump a fence
		
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They aren't being smacked to make them jump?!! There isn't a stick in the world that'll make over half a tonne jump, if it doesn't want to.  The smacks are there to pick them up - to make them listen - to tune them back in.

You only have to see horses mutual grooming to know that they do not experience pain like we do.  What they do to each other for pleasure - would HURT me!!  Then add the adrenaline into the equation and those measley smacks are like peeing in the wind really, but they often suffice to wake a horse up and get its mind back on the game.  If that results in a safe jump, where otherwise there may have been a fall.  I'm all for it.


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## martyfisch (25 April 2011)

I'll also put it out there that it looked like MT had a race whip, therefore more padded and softer on the horse.


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## LizzyandToddy (25 April 2011)

Some people do talk absolute horse ****e on this forum they really do. Mark todd's horse had his ears pricked to ever fence, smack or not. There is nothing wrong with giving the horse a reminder, it was not overuse, he was hardly beating it every single stride of the way, now was he? 

The smack, if indeed most of these people were even paying attention, was simply a reminder to pick his legs up, and wasn't that sharp either. He gave him a tap, and funnily enough the horse responded, picked up, galloped off home clear as a daisy and passed the trot up this morning.

Other than one withdrawal after cross country every horse has passed the trot up. So they haven't 'finished lame'. I think its very inconsiderate of people on here to be quite so narrow minded and would love to see what half of these people would have done given that the rider has the weight of sponsorship, owners, grooms and everyone that has put something into this horse to uphold. 

At the end of the day Mark Todd loves that horse and had he thought for one moment it was in jeopardy or out of it's depth he would have pulled up. Stop being quite so radical sitting in your arm chairs criticising others, when quite frankly you don't know enough about a situation to critic!


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## Fellewell (25 April 2011)

Anyone who thinks they can criticise Mark Todd obviously doesn't know what they're talking about. Yes the horse was tired as most were, but needed picking up because he still had some gas in the tank, as Mark proved.

Felt very sorry for Ruth Edge.

Opposition Buzz and Nicola Wilson - what a combination!


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## DragonSlayer (25 April 2011)

alligator40 said:



			Armchair critics are always amusing.
		
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I'va already asked someone called amanda on the other thread for a video of her riding so I can CC it, seeing as I'm an Expert of Many Years.

Be interesting to see if the video comes to light, then we can compare it to the woman she called a crap rider.


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## Amaranta (25 April 2011)

pastie2 said:



			Have you ever ridden round Badminton or even aspired to Novice eventing? In fact all of you who are critical about the riding at Badminton, could you do it? Would you have the knowledge or the balls to even attempt too? If not then shut up. You are all nit picking and loving it. I would love to see some of you on a horse, let alone a fit horse prepared and keen to do its job over a course like that. Perhaps you should put yourselves forward and offer your knowledge to the likes of Mark Todd, I am sure he would welcome some contructive advice from you.
		
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Oh very well said Pastie!

Makes me laugh the way people feel that they have the experience or the skills to criticise riders who are way way above them.  I too would like to pop them on a fit eventer and let them show us how it is done around Badminton, I'm up for a good laugh!


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## amandap (25 April 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			I'va already asked someone called amanda on the other thread for a video of her riding so I can CC it, seeing as I'm an Expert of Many Years.

Be interesting to see if the video comes to light, then we can compare it to the woman she called a crap rider.



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Are you talking about me? You'll have to point me to it if you are.


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## Holly Hocks (25 April 2011)

pastie2 said:



			Have you ever ridden round Badminton or even aspired to Novice eventing? In fact all of you who are critical about the riding at Badminton, could you do it? Would you have the knowledge or the balls to even attempt too? If not then shut up. You are all nit picking and loving it. I would love to see some of you on a horse, let alone a fit horse prepared and keen to do its job over a course like that. Perhaps you should put yourselves forward and offer your knowledge to the likes of Mark Todd, I am sure he would welcome some contructive advice from you.
		
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*Snort*...Go Pastie, Go Pastie, Go Pastie!!  Lets face it, he's been in the sport longer than some of the forum members have been born.....I think that speaks volumes!


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## kickonchaps (25 April 2011)

Holly Hocks said:



			*Snort*...Go Pastie, Go Pastie, Go Pastie!!  Lets face it, he's been in the sport longer than some of the forum members have been born.....I think that speaks volumes!
		
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And he can jump clear round Badminton with only one stirrup!! I bet there are plenty of people who couldn't canter a circuit of their arena with one stirrup haha

ETA I used to be one of them before anyone gives me the ol' 'let's see what you can do then...'


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## foraday (25 April 2011)

Sorry am I missing the point here totally!  Which Badminton was the OP watching!

Yes the horse was tired but then so were many others which was very strange!  The horse in question was it's first go at 4**** and on the approach to the quarry you can see an extra stride was put in by the horse when Toddy clearly asked for it to take off and was ignored!

Could be greeness could be a situation where the horse thinks it knows best and does what it thinks!  The quarry itself did pose an interesting question to horses.

I only saw Toddy hit the horse 3 times to get it up and over the fence after the quarry log-the horses ears were pricked when jumping.  Hardly cause for 'inconsiderate whip use' calls

Horses at the end were all jumped off of and watered down!  As were any horses that fell or retired on course.  The proper thing to do-water off, scrape down, water off, scrape down and so on!

I do not understand the OP comparison to racing either

I for one would let Toddy ride my 3*** ned anyday


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## MagicMelon (25 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			I saw several horses today getting several sharp reminders with the whip, including very tired horses galloping on the flat who were getting whipped to go faster towards the end. And Todd hitting his too. Where does this differ from racing? They guy towards the end on the chestnut horse was sure using his spurs, why are they not considered cruel like the whip is in racing?
		
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I didnt like that I must say - hitting their horses 3 or 4 times in a row on the flat to get them to go faster when they were already tired.  I hate when they do this in racing too.  How come spurs arent allowed in racing but are for eventing?  IMO, they shouldnt be allowed.


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## paulineh (25 April 2011)

Very interesting post.

As an Endurance rider I have followed this and the posts about the Grand National. Both in the respect of the use of the whip and the dehydration etc.

The average speed of a horse at badminton is about 22kph for a distance of 4 plus miles.

During an Fei endurance event 1) we are not allowed a whip at all 2) the average speed is well over 20kph for 100 miles and 3) we know how to cool our horses. We also are never allowed spurs.

It will be interesting to see what Mary King thinks about riding at the "Golden Horse Shoe" She will be riding the first 25 miles of the 100 but will be riding an experienced endurance horse though.


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## kickonchaps (25 April 2011)

paulineh said:



			Very interesting post.

As an Endurance rider I have followed this and the posts about the Grand National. Both in the respect of the use of the whip and the dehydration etc.

The average speed of a horse at badminton is about 22kph for a distance of 4 plus miles.

During an Fei endurance event 1) we are not allowed a whip at all 2) the average speed is well over 20kph for 100 miles and 3) we know how to cool our horses. We also are never allowed spurs.

It will be interesting to see what Mary King thinks about riding at the "Golden Horse Shoe" She will be riding the first 25 miles of the 100 but will be riding an experienced endurance horse though.
		
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The difference with endurance is you aren't putting your life at risk if your horse doesn't go off your leg the moment you ask him to, which I imagine is why spurs are allowed in eventing. And I've seen some pretty horrific riding at endurance events as well with exhausted horses so it's by no means fault-free itself


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## Voltarama (25 April 2011)

equinim said:



			mark todd shouldnt have hit the horse that many times when it was ob so tired.
just to jump the last few fences was it worth it.
hope horse fails vetting 2mrw. 
pride at finishing before horses wellfare.
in racing jockeys get repramanded for hitting tired horses
		
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I just watched the very jump I think you're talking about. I can only assume you are a troll. The horse left its' back legs behind on the jump just before it, there were only three or four strides to the next jump. He used his whip to get the horse moving forward. A horse moving forward over a jump is a lot safer than a horse NOT moving forward. 

Seriously - Mark Todd doesn't have to prove anything at all. Horse finished - sure it was tired, but most horses are after finishing the xc. If he'd had to do that on three jumps in a row, then sure, the horse is too tired and should be retired. but it was the only use of the whip I saw and I've got to say, he is one of the best xc riders. You never see him pulling on the horses mouth to keep his balance or anything else that some of the other 4* riders do.


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## teagreen (25 April 2011)

See, people who know what they're talking about are getting upset because people have criticised their sport - it's the same for me with racing. There are good reasons why racing is as it is, and good reasons why eventing is as it is and people who have never been involved with racehorses/involved in eventing shouldn't be meddling with it. These animal rights folk will get racing changed, then they'll get other horse sports changed.


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## Tinker_Belle (25 April 2011)

I'm glad I've seen this post as having watched Badminton today, the only rider I had an issue with was Sam Griffiths. Having said that though, there could have been a perfectly good reason for his whip use that I didn't see so I'm not prepared to bitch about it.

The rest of the riders usng whips were as far as I could see to encourage a slightly lazy horse or one who had begun to lose concentration. I'd far rather see a rider wake a horse up and getting it going forward safely with a sharp tap or two of the whip than see a rotational fall because the horse was going badly and the rider too afraid to use the whip for fear of comeback.
It's extremely dangerous for a horse to approach jumps such as the Badminton ones without it's mind on the job and it just throwing itself in to the jump and hoping for the best.

In my experience, a whip is there for discipline and to remind a horse that he actually does have a job to do. It's never nice to see a whip being used but it's a necessary evil IMO.
I know from my own experience and my own horse that sometimes, a short sharp tap gets things back in to persective for the horse and reminds it just what it is there to do.


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## Jesstickle (25 April 2011)

Well, Clearly MT's horse was traumatised and exhausted form yesterday given that it's just jumped clear inside the time to win *rolls eyes*


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## angelish (25 April 2011)

equinim said:



			mark todd shouldnt have hit the horse that many times when it was ob so tired.
just to jump the last few fences was it worth it.
hope horse fails vetting 2mrw. 
pride at finishing before horses wellfare.
in racing jockeys get repramanded for hitting tired horses
		
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## LCH611 (25 April 2011)

I do hope that all those that were so quick to slate Toddy yesterday now have the grace to acknowledge that he was correct to assess the horse as fit to carry on - it was clearly sound enough to pass the Ground Jury and looked as fresh as a daisy having pooped round the SJ to win! I guess the moral is that a masterly horseman with all the years of experience that he has, should not take any notice of armchair critics!


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## kickonchaps (25 April 2011)

angelish said:












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lol!!!


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## lialls (25 April 2011)

trick123 said:



			There were some lovely rounds today with bright perky horses, but I'm sorry I do not agree that an extremely tired horse should be smacked to make it jump a fence
		
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I agree with this.  If the horse is so tired it might make a mistake jumping then it should be pulled up..


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## Mondy (25 April 2011)

It never ceases to amaze me how normalised it has become for people to 'smack' their horse. 

It is inexcusable, really, when practised to the extent Emily Baldwin, no.81, did at the cross country water jump. Ugly and disgraceful treatment. 

And regarding the 'sit still and be quiet'-shouters, I should like them to consider that some people here have other objectives in working with horses. For some, it is not the mark of a 'good' rider that they ride fast and jump high; why should the bad riders at Badminton be applauded - and excused their whip-use - simply on such spurious grounds? I would not want to pursue a kind of riding that legitimises 'smacking' my horse to make him 'pay attention'.


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## Jesstickle (25 April 2011)

Mondy said:



			It never ceases to amaze me how normalised it has become for people to 'smack' their horse.
		
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I would say that without a shadow of a doubt whip use has decreased steadily for about a hundred years. How can it have become 'normalised'? That makes absolutely no sense at all given that we started with more than we have now. People clearly have become more uncomfortable with excessive use of the whip rather than vice versa.


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## Mrs B (25 April 2011)

Mondy said:



			It never ceases to amaze me how normalised it has become for people to 'smack' their horse. 

It is inexcusable, really, when practised to the extent Emily Baldwin, no.81, did at the cross country water jump. Ugly and disgraceful treatment. 

And regarding the 'sit still and be quiet'-shouters, I should like them to consider that some people here have other objectives in working with horses. For some, it is not the mark of a 'good' rider that they ride fast and jump high; why should the bad riders at Badminton be applauded - and excused their whip-use - simply on such spurious grounds? I would not want to pursue a kind of riding that legitimises 'smacking' my horse to make him 'pay attention'.
		
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It always amuses me that you feel you need to inform us all not only that you're at Oxford, plus (to emphasise _quite_ how clever you are) you then attempt to cross pollinate a Latin quote with having a go at rollkur, now you write this sort of pompous twaddle!


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## Gingerwitch (25 April 2011)

I am so sorry to read this post - to have a horse and rider partnership in a 4* event, takes knowledge, compassion, time, effort and ability.  A thing sadly lacking in many of the armchair critiqes brigade - tell me now when was the last time you went for a gallop on a strong horse? ever had a horse lock onto the wrong fence? I am suprised your not critisising Mary Kings position at the water jump too - ah well - can i get your autograph at you next teleivised event? - urm thought not.

I just watched the re- run and i honestly thought i would be shouting at the telly the way the "beating of a collapsing horse" image was being portrayed - what i saw was a horse a little bit mentally tired - hes only 10 after all and a lot of questions were being asked of him - that needed a "come on get - your mind on this" reminder.  The horse picked up well, came home - yes looking weary but boy did he look well in the SJ phase today - so yes i can see why the horse was so traumatised - and do you really think the majority of these riders "beat" to gain trust in the relationship - as many will tell you a loss of confidence in a horse/rider combination either way will result in some pretty certain refusals at this level,


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## Vetty (25 April 2011)

Mark Todd's reputation and record speak for themselves. Of all the riders I watched yesterday XC the today SJ his judgement of the horse and situation is one I trust..... He is such a horseman and always seems to ride so considerately, I also think his use of the whip yesterday was timely and appropriate.

I couldn't be happier that MT won today. I am also thrilled that all the horses presented passed the trot up and so many looked fantastic in the SJ, Imperial Cavalier and Jakarta in particular.......

I am an armchair eventing fan but I have a friend who events at a high level and I can vouch for 4* horses not being easy rides!!!


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## skewbald_again (25 April 2011)

QR I haven't read this whole thread, as to be honest, my computer might not survive - but the first post made me very cross, and I felt I had to comment, so if  a lot of people have said the same, I apologise.
Mark Todd is a consummate professional, and he carried that horse home.  That the horse came out today looking like it did and jumped clear to win? Well there you go.
The kind of people who really shouldn't be let near a horse are the kind who don't know what the hell they're talking about but can't stop talking about it, and opine thatt they 'hope a horse fails the vet' i.e. is injured.
Just almost too cross to type and remembering why I don't come here very often any more.


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## Kadastorm (25 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			QR I haven't read this whole thread, as to be honest, my computer might not survive - but the first post made me very cross, and I felt I had to comment, so if  a lot of people have said the same, I apologise.
Mark Todd is a consummate professional, and he carried that horse home.  That the horse came out today looking like it did and jumped clear to win? Well there you go.
The kind of people who really shouldn't be let near a horse are the kind who don't know what the hell they're talking about but can't stop talking about it, and opine thatt they 'hope a horse fails the vet' i.e. is injured.
Just almost too cross to type and remembering why I don't come here very often any more.
		
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^^ very well said!


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## Jennyharvey (25 April 2011)

Kitsune said:



			You only have to see horses mutual grooming to know that they do not experience pain like we do.  What they do to each other for pleasure - would HURT me!!  Then add the adrenaline into the equation and those measley smacks are like peeing in the wind really, but they often suffice to wake a horse up and get its mind back on the game.  If that results in a safe jump, where otherwise there may have been a fall.  I'm all for it.
		
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Sorry, but to say horse's dont experience pain the same way we do is utter rubbish.  Yes they use their teeth to scratch friends, and a nip isnt gonna draw blood.  They may have a thicker skin, than us, and hair too, but they still feel pain.  So what you are saying is that its perfectly ok to hit a horse with a whip, rope, whatever, because they dont feel pain like us?  
Sorry but thats just daft.


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## kickonchaps (25 April 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			Sorry, but to say horse's dont experience pain the same way we do is utter rubbish.  Yes they use their teeth to scratch friends, and a nip isnt gonna draw blood.  They may have a thicker skin, than us, and hair too, but they still feel pain.  So what you are saying is that its perfectly ok to hit a horse with a whip, rope, whatever, because they dont feel pain like us?  
Sorry but thats just daft.
		
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Don't think that was what Kitsune was saying at all...


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## skewbald_again (25 April 2011)

and I have to tell you, there are people who whack each other harder than that for fun, girls. Sorry but there you have it


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## Jesstickle (25 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			and I have to tell you, there are people who whack each other harder than that for fun, girls. Sorry but there you have it 

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haha. PMSL

I noticed most people were riding with race style, padded whips.

I can guarantee those don't hurt much. The lads at our yard used to crack me over the ass on a regular basis with them and I'm still here to tell the tale! And I don't mean little taps, I mean they truly walloped me. It stings but it wasn't agony! Boys eh. Sigh


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## DragonSlayer (25 April 2011)

amandap said:



			Are you talking about me? You'll have to point me to it if you are. 

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Apologies...not amanda...amelia....

D'oh!


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## Elf On A Shelf (25 April 2011)

Sorry guys! I have a confession to make! I hit my pony with a stick today! He got a flick from the end of my schooling whip that barely tickled his bum as he was being a lazy toad and tried to drop his head in my hands. I'm so sorry, next time I shall forgo the stick, not use my legs and let him amble along whilst I hold his head up for him just to appease you all! Or maybe I should just never ride him again and leave him in the field to get fat and bored?!?

Opinions gratefully received!


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## stacey_lou (25 April 2011)

NinjaPony said:



			Hardly  He gave it 3 smacks, to make sure it got over the fence safely. After that he didn't touch it with his whip. Yes, horse was tired, but not exhausted, and picked up on the dowhill run. Careful riding got him home, and he jumped off straight away to cool him down. Not very pretty, but did the job. This is a young horse, and probably hasn't done a course at this level before.
Now Frank Osholt on the other hand was VERY lucky to get home, and should have pulled up. 
I have repeated what I said before.
I don't condone the use of the whip, but Mark Todd was hardly beating him round the course. If he hadn't given him a smack, they might have come to serious grief at that fence, then we would be complaining that they had fallen!
For what its worth, I am not against racing either entirely, but I think the number of runners in the national causes problems.
		
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I agree with the above, Mark Todd just gave that horse a wake up to say come on get on with it and if that horse was too tired to continue he wouldnt have jumped it.

Emily Baldwin on the other hand I think layed into her horse when he refused at the water fence, she didnt need to batter him when she had taken him away from the fence, a few smacks on the shoulder on the apprach would have been better, again what Mark Todd did, the right place and the right time.

I must also say I was mighty impressed with how well WFP sat when Cool Mountain tripped over the parell Log up the larger step (sorry cant remember the name of the fence) but that horse really helped him out as much as WFP helped him what a parternership they have


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## kickonchaps (25 April 2011)

EKW said:



			Sorry guys! I have a confession to make! I hit my pony with a stick today! He got a flick from the end of my schooling whip that barely tickled his bum as he was being a lazy toad and tried to drop his head in my hands. I'm so sorry, next time I shall forgo the stick, not use my legs and let him amble along whilst I hold his head up for him just to appease you all! Or maybe I should just never ride him again and leave him in the field to get fat and bored?!?

Opinions gratefully received!
		
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Well it's simple, you should train him better  You shouldn't need to use legs or a whip, he should be well enough trained that he just does it, whatever it is you're doing


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## Elf On A Shelf (25 April 2011)

kickonchaps said:



			Well it's simple, you should train him better  You shouldn't need to use legs or a whip, he should be well enough trained that he just does it, whatever it is you're doing 

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He's a shetland - that's about as much of an explanation to his behaviour that is needed lol! I mean, I can put up with the biting, kicking, bolshy, stubborn behaviour that is stereotyped to these ponies but his head is really heavy!!!


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## stacey_lou (25 April 2011)

kickonchaps said:



			Well it's simple, you should train him better  You shouldn't need to use legs or a whip, he should be well enough trained that he just does it, whatever it is you're doing 

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Ha ha, yea good one. I would love to know the secret to getting a horse over big questions with out EVER using a whip for a shoulder Tap or a legs. I spoke with Mary once and she said if she feels her horse may refuse a fence or run out 3/4 strides off she would giver her horse a couple of smacks on the shoulder then another one stride of to insure they jump it and by heck actually it works!!  so I hold my hands up to i use a short whip when jumping across country!


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## kickonchaps (25 April 2011)

stacey_lou said:



			Ha ha, yea good one. I would love to know the secret to getting a horse over big questions with out EVER using a whip for a shoulder Tap or a legs. I spoke with Mary once and she said if she feels her horse may refuse a fence or run out 3/4 strides off she would giver her horse a couple of smacks on the shoulder then another one stride of to insure they jump it and by heck actually it works!!  so I hold my hands up to i use a short whip when jumping across country!
		
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With you on that, I know exactly which fences I'm likely to have problems with (either me being wimpy or the horse) and I override them completely, slap on the shoulder for both the last strides, but it gets us over in a nice forward rhythm with no backing off, and I would expect the next time I encountered that fence we'd both be more confident than if I relied on kicking and we had a bit of a catleap over. 

And I will also freely admit that there have been times in the past when I've lost my temper at my horse over a dirty stop and walloped him, as much from frustration as from the belief it'll actually do any good. It ain't big and it ain't clever, and with a clear head and the power of hindsight I do feel bad, but I don't think there's a rider on the planet who can honestly say they've never lost control at any point, horses can be a pain in the a**e!!!  The important thing is you learn from every stupid mistake, dirty stop and moment of madness, and make sure you address it in your training before you put yourself back in that situation.


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## Elf On A Shelf (25 April 2011)

stacey_lou said:



			Ha ha, yea good one. I would love to know the secret to getting a horse over big questions with out EVER using a whip for a shoulder Tap or a legs. I spoke with Mary once and she said if she feels her horse may refuse a fence or run out 3/4 strides off she would giver her horse a couple of smacks on the shoulder then another one stride of to insure they jump it and by heck actually it works!!  so I hold my hands up to i use a short whip when jumping across country!
		
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And there was me thinking that if you attached a carrot to the end of your stick and dangled in infront of the horse you would have a much better chance of going clear round a cross country course - You learn something new everyday!


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## 1stclassalan (25 April 2011)

Kitsune said:



			They aren't being smacked to make them jump?!! There isn't a stick in the world that'll make over half a tonne jump, if it doesn't want to.  The smacks are there to pick them up - to make them listen - to tune them back in.

You only have to see horses mutual grooming to know that they do not experience pain like we do.  What they do to each other for pleasure - would HURT me!!  Then add the adrenaline into the equation and those measley smacks are like peeing in the wind really, but they often suffice to wake a horse up and get its mind back on the game.  If that results in a safe jump, where otherwise there may have been a fall.  I'm all for it.
		
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Hmmm, well now - I quite like to watch American Football and would have played it given half a chance - it's a game of chess coupled with constructed violence. One of the most longlived players of all time is a guy called Bret Farve - he played an unbelievable number of consecutive games despite taking fantastic hits pretty regularly - he has been quoted as saying that he likes to get a few bashes early in the game to wake him up! 

This all fine and dandy for a ( so called ) thinking person to indulge in gladatorial sport - but placing a horse in similar circumstances is far from humane and belies this country's reputation as being a nation of horse lovers and I'm amazed that eventing hasn't raised more public outrage than it has.

Luckily - and it is mostly luck - the number of horses killed at events is less than racing, this is largely because of better qualifying procedures and the fact that horses are traveling slower; however; the obstacles are infinitely more dangerous so when things go wrong they usually go badly wrong. When evaluating the relevant problems - what happens off course must be taken into account and there are many horse deaths at qualifying events to consider. Human ego is to blame in most of these tradegies - many owners like the idea of a horse in the Grand National who should never be anywhere near Aintree fences and with eventing prize money and sponsorship at dizzying levels the risks are there too.


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## Elf On A Shelf (25 April 2011)

alligator40 said:



			Well, he deserves to be battered to within an inch of his life for just that 1 reason...

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Really? You'd give him a whole inch?!? Your very generous!


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## Mrs B (25 April 2011)

alligator40 said:



			Well, he deserves to be battered to within an inch of his life for just that 1 reason...

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Oooh yes! Shetland tempura....


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## Elf On A Shelf (25 April 2011)

alligator40 said:



			yes, just so i could do it all again the following day
		
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Ah! I see your logic now! Maybe I should try the whole inch thing as it normally takes a couple of days to get him right enough again to start over again!


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## thumperbos (25 April 2011)

I don't usually reply to threads with such topics but I have to completely agree with pastie2 on this one. I love being a part of this sport and we were lucky enough to witness some superb displays of complete harmony between horse and rider, as well as some mis-communications..! And I for one have to applaud Toddy's masterful show of horsemanship in educating this relatively young and inexperienced horse (at this level) round the course. For me, it was a joy to watch and I'm sorry that not everyone saw it that way. X


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## skewbald_again (25 April 2011)

1stclassalan said:



			with eventing prize money and sponsorship at dizzying levels the risks are there too.
		
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Don't take much to make you dizzy, I must say.

Steer clear of premiership football and formula one or you'll need a glass of water and a lie down.


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## asyouwish (25 April 2011)

Does anyone have footage of this apparently brutal whipping? I would like to see for myself rather than judging on what others are saying.

And why has an apparently 3 stikes to make a horse listen turned into an eventing VS racing debate.


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## LEC (25 April 2011)

Do you know the full history of Emily and Drivetime? He is one of the most talented horses on the circuit. This horse has won countless events over the years including Hartpury 3*. This is not the first time he has done this at the Badminton lake and the lake was not hard this year if the horse was genuine. Drivetime was not genuine and frankly after his smacks (with a racing whip which is very padded) he jumped in. This one stop cost the pair dearly for many long term things. Up to that point the horse was jumping and galloping for fun. Threads like this infuriate me as the majority of you do not have a clue.


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## teagreen (25 April 2011)

asyouwish said:



			Does anyone have footage of this apparently brutal whipping? I would like to see for myself rather than judging on what others are saying.

And why has an apparently 3 stikes to make a horse listen turned into an eventing VS racing debate.
		
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It hasn't - I'm the one who started it, and it wasnt my intention to debate it because I fully support the use of the whip in racing and the use of the whip in eventing. I was using this event as an example - jockeys whip their tired horses who are 'giving everything', eventers whip their tired horses who are 'giving everything', but judging by the response both parties get, the horses aren't giving everything and the use of the whip is justified. 

Racing is getting a lot of stick for its whip right now, what I was saying is that this (and other sports) is the same.


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## NinjaPony (25 April 2011)

Wow. Those 3 smacks have clearly beaten Land Vision to an inch of his life, and he is exhausted. No wonder he failed his trot up and was eliminated!!


Oh wait.....



Why don't you all go and give Mark Todd, who has just won Badminton for the 4th time, your advice. I am sure he would appreciate it.


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## asyouwish (25 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			It hasn't - I'm the one who started it, and it wasnt my intention to debate it because I fully support the use of the whip in racing and the use of the whip in eventing. I was using this event as an example - jockeys whip their tired horses who are 'giving everything', eventers whip their tired horses who are 'giving everything', but judging by the response both parties get, the horses aren't giving everything and the use of the whip is justified. 

Racing is getting a lot of stick for its whip right now, what I was saying is that this (and other sports) is the same.
		
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I wasnt meaning any offence by the way  I was just wondering how as I kinda got lost halfway through this thread


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## skewbald_again (25 April 2011)

NinjaPony said:



			Wow. Those 3 smacks have clearly beaten Land Vision to an inch of his life, and he is exhausted. No wonder he failed his trot up and was eliminated!!


Oh wait.....



Why don't you all go and give Mark Todd, who has just won Badminton for the 4th time, your advice. I am sure he would appreciate it.
		
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Exactly. The reason the op made me so cross. 'Mark Todd shouldn't have ...'

And YOU are?


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## paulineh (25 April 2011)

kickonchaps said:



			The difference with endurance is you aren't putting your life at risk if your horse doesn't go off your leg the moment you ask him to, which I imagine is why spurs are allowed in eventing. And I've seen some pretty horrific riding at endurance events as well with exhausted horses so it's by no means fault-free itself
		
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I am not saying that thinks do not happen at the lower levels only that we do not need a whip or spurs. As for the horse not reacting off the leg,we also need to have a responsive horse too as we travel at speed through woods, rough tracks and up & down big hills  (Exmoor)


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## suzysparkle (25 April 2011)

pastie2 said:



			First it was the Grand National then it was the Scottish National now its Badminton. Really are any of you meally mouthed anti anything that asks the ultimate question from a horse that has been very well prepared and fit, to do a job with a rider who is one of the top event riders in the world, in a position to voice your rediculous opinions?  You are a joke, all of you, armchair jockies and armchair riders who most probably wouldnt know how to see a stride into a cross pole!!
		
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Totally agree with this. I can't believe some of the tripe I've read on here. As for OP - what a truly horrible person you are wishing for a Horse to fail a trot up. Ok maybe some of the punishing smacks after refusals looked a bit nasty but I'm sure the majority of riders have smacked Horses in the heat of the moment. I highly doubt you can inflict that much pain on a Horse with a riding whip, especially when the adrenalin is pumping.


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## Mrs B (25 April 2011)

paulineh said:



			I am not saying that thinks do not happen at the lower levels only that we do not need a whip or spurs. As for the horse not reacting off the leg,we also need to have a responsive horse too as we travel at speed through woods, rough tracks and up & down big hills  (Exmoor)
		
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Oh, ok then. You are travelling at speed (a good hand canter) along a downhill track in a wood which may have a few rocks or tree roots along the way shall we say - for a worst case scenario?

Yes. I can see just how easy that is to compare with Badminton.


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## Ranyhyn (25 April 2011)

Isn't it funny how generally, you wont see other professional riders slating their competition.  When interviewers ask them about other riders issues, they usually comiserate or agree with the issue etc but they very rarely run someone else down.

But you come on here and people are full of it!!     None as queer as folk eh?!


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## EAST KENT (25 April 2011)

For goodness sake! Having watched this event now,every smack produced the desired result that I saw.The grey refusing at that water,got a reminder and went on through next time. Whips in racing are heavily padded,and often times are waved so the horse`s eye sees it,,it dies`nt actually strike.
   Toddy esp. was riding a tired horse,so he dragged a leg  and perked up with a reminder, really tired horses were pulled out mid run..what more do you want? Keep to your little ponies and their stripey velvet browbands and leave our professionals alone .


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## kickonchaps (25 April 2011)

paulineh said:



			I am not saying that thinks do not happen at the lower levels only that we do not need a whip or spurs. As for the horse not reacting off the leg,we also need to have a responsive horse too as we travel at speed through woods, rough tracks and up & down big hills  (Exmoor)
		
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A good endurance horse looks after itself a lot of the time though, realistically if you're having to set your horse up every time you encounter a tree branch you'll both be knackered by the end, that's what so great about Arabs, they're clever on their feet and nimble and you can trust them to go up and down sharp inclines without having to fuss around too much. Arabs are also the type of horses who form an intense bond with their rider and will push themselves literally to the point of death before they'll give up, which is again why they're so good at endurance. After 80 miles of racing, quite rightly you shouldn't be using spurs and a whip to make an exhausted horse cross the finish line faster. 

But if your horse gets a bit lazy and unresponsive and trips over its own feet, or you miss a turn, the chances are it'll pick itself up again and carry on but being a bit more careful. If you're unlucky it'll hurt itself, but it would really take some doing for a tired/unresponsive horse to hurtle through the air on an endurance ride and land on TOP of its rider. THAT'S why eventers need an extra something, because the risk of death is genuine and there won't be many who rode round Badminton at the weekend who don't know someone who's made a mistake and paid for it in the worst way.  

Every discipline is different, and every one of us will quite understandably defend our discipline if other people are attacking it. To lump them all in together and make comparisons is a waste of time, and quite frankly demeaning to our sport as a whole - a marathon runner, a sprinter and an 800m runner don't get compared, so why should an eventer, an endurance rider and a NH jockey?!


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## Over2You (26 April 2011)

1stclassalan said:



			Hmmm, well now - I quite like to watch American Football and would have played it given half a chance - it's a game of chess coupled with constructed violence. One of the most longlived players of all time is a guy called Bret Farve - he played an unbelievable number of consecutive games despite taking fantastic hits pretty regularly - he has been quoted as saying that he likes to get a few bashes early in the game to wake him up! 

This all fine and dandy for a ( so called ) thinking person to indulge in gladatorial sport - but placing a horse in similar circumstances is far from humane and belies this country's reputation as being a nation of horse lovers and I'm amazed that eventing hasn't raised more public outrage than it has.

Luckily - and it is mostly luck - the number of horses killed at events is less than racing, this is largely because of better qualifying procedures and the fact that horses are traveling slower; however; the obstacles are infinitely more dangerous so when things go wrong they usually go badly wrong. When evaluating the relevant problems - what happens off course must be taken into account and there are many horse deaths at qualifying events to consider. Human ego is to blame in most of these tradegies - many owners like the idea of a horse in the Grand National who should never be anywhere near Aintree fences and with eventing prize money and sponsorship at dizzying levels the risks are there too.
		
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Very well said! I also wonder how popular Crufts and the annual dog agility at Olympia would be if the dogs received a 'reminder' or umpteen of them. Or if coaches/trainers got out the whip to 'wake-up' their athletes running in the 10,000 metre event.  

I had actually begun to see the argument for using a whip to keep a horse straight in racing, but my mind was very quickly changed after seeing this video. Upon seeing the whip, several horses in the video veered away/spooked, and ended-up endangering the other runners by crossing their paths. One actually caught the leg of another and almost brought him down. And with all those whips waving about, two horses were smacked in the face.  One horse even took a crashing fall after becoming more fixated on the whip than the fence. The races in the video took place over a period of just a few days. Imagine how often such things happen over the course of a year!


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			Very well said! I also wonder how popular Crufts and the annual dog agility at Olympia would be if the dogs received a 'reminder' or umpteen of them. Or if coaches/trainers got out the whip to 'wake-up' their athletes running in the 10,000 metre event.  

I had actually begun to see the argument for using a whip to keep a horse straight in racing, but my mind was very quickly changed after seeing this video. Upon seeing the whip, several horses in the video veered away/spooked, and ended-up endangering the other runners by crossing their paths. One actually caught the leg of another and almost brought him down. And with all those whips waving about, two horses were smacked in the face.  One horse even took a crashing fall after becoming more fixated on the whip than the fence. The races in the video took place over a period of just a few days. Imagine how often such things happen over the course of a year!
		
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What a load of shoe menders. Firstly, we are discussing eventing, not racing so three parts of it is irrelevant. 
Secondly, this wholly daft 'what if it was people' rubbish is beginning to grate. It isn't, it's horses, OK? They're not people. They're the ones with four legs and hairy faces.
Do you even know how top event horses live? Have you, for example, ever strapped a fit horse? Do you think they'd trade a couple of slaps round the well muscled, arm jarringly hard arse to come and live at La La DIY Livery Yard at the mercy of a bunch of incompetent do gooders? I think not.


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## amandap (26 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			Very well said! I also wonder how popular Crufts and the annual dog agility at Olympia would be if the dogs received a 'reminder' or umpteen of them. Or if coaches/trainers got out the whip to 'wake-up' their athletes running in the 10,000 metre event.
		
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I think school sports day would be good... NOT 


Over2You said:



			I had actually begun to see the argument for using a whip to keep a horse straight in racing, but my mind was very quickly changed after seeing this video.
		
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I will never, ever see the argument for using a whip (or hitting full stop) to hurt a horse or other animal as part of 'motivation' or even safety and especially in an event for which horses (and humans) are supposed to be trained.  Someone hitting me would definititely not encourage me. It might scare me but I would then feel resentment, repeated whipping would make me feel, 'what's the point, I'm gonna get whipped anyway and I still have no idea why'.  How is whipping gonna make a horse enjoy what they are doing and really want to do it again and again?
I may well not have been round Badmington or on a racecourse but I know from my own horses that hitting and whipping isn't necessary. Horses are similar in their feelings and senses no matter what breed or dicipline.

If horses are trying to 'run out' or need 'motivating' shouldn't we be looking at *why* rather than just hitting them to make sure they do it? Surely that would be safer than relying on a little bit of stick and pain? Perhaps fences are too big, too dangerous, too much? 

Mta... I'm talking in general here not about one incident of whipping. To me we look at this all the wrong way round and start defending our heros and sport we love but that stops us seeing clearly and seeing ways we can improve things.


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

amandap said:



			I think school sports day would be good... NOT 

....

If horses are trying to 'run out' or need 'motivating' shouldn't we be looking at *why* rather than just hitting them to make sure they do it? Surely that would be safer than relying on a little bit of stick and pain? Perhaps fences are too big, too dangerous, too much? 

Click to expand...

Well by your reasoning, we should put them in house teams, make sure their dad takes the day off to watch,  and give a creme egg to the winner, and that would sort it.


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2011)

I don't like the horses are people argument, however,

even people respond to a slap as a pick me up. Or the equivalent at least. If I'm falling asleep in a meeting I'll pinch myself on the arm or bite the inside of my cheek to wake myself up.

If I'm running a long way (which I don't any more as my knee is effed) I'd mentally shake myself down if I got tired and occasionally slap the tops of my arms. 

If it works for me why wouldn't it work for a horse?

And again, those whips don't hurt. Like I said before I've been walloped with them. Unless horses feel more pain than me all they are getting is a bit of a shock. The noise padded whips make probably has far more effect than any 'pain' inflicted.

Are all you people this soft in real life. Do you allow your dogs and children to just do what they want at all times? Is it your horrible children I see in supermarkets rearranging the shelves and opening all the food because you can't tell them 'no', you have to ask them why they're doing it?


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## amandap (26 April 2011)

jesstickle said:



			I don't like the horses are people argument, however,

even people respond to a slap as a pick me up. Or the equivalent at least. If I'm falling asleep in a meeting I'll pinch myself on the arm or bite the inside of my cheek to wake myself up.

If I'm running a long way (which I don't any more as my knee is effed) I'd mentally shake myself down if I got tired and occasionally slap the tops of my arms. 

If it works for me why wouldn't it work for a horse?
		
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Yes, it might work for you but don't forget you are doing it to yourself?

Why don't you like the horses and people argument? To me horses are another animal (like us) that live, breathe and feel just the same as we do?
I like to think, would I like that? It keeps me grounded and remembering that horses really are sentient beings with feelings not some machine to press the accelerator or slam on the brakes when things get hairy.


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

amandap said:



			Yes, it might work for you but don't forget you are doing it to yourself?

Why don't you like the horses and people argument? To me horses are another animal (like us) that live, breathe and feel just the same as we do?
I like to think, would I like that? It keeps me grounded and remembering that horses really are sentient beings with feelings not some machine to press the accelerator or slam on the brakes when things get hairy.
		
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Would I like to scarf down half a pound of chicken ****, jump in a smelly pond, and try to shag a hairy blanket from Oxfam? No, but it ticks all the boxes for my labrador.

I am not a dog. He is not a person.


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## amandap (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			Would I like to scarf down half a pound of chicken ****, jump in a smelly pond, and try to shag a hairy blanket from Oxfam? No, but it ticks all the boxes for my labrador.

I am not a dog. He is not a person.
		
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He may not be a human (person) and has his own individual species likes and dislikes but are you seriously saying that because he likes muddy ponds etc. he doesn't feel pain, fear, etc.


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2011)

amandap said:



			Yes, it might work for you but don't forget you are doing it to yourself?

Why don't you like the horses and people argument? To me horses are another animal (like us) that live, breathe and feel just the same as we do?
I like to think, would I like that? It keeps me grounded and remembering that horses really are sentient beings with feelings not some machine to press the accelerator or slam on the brakes when things get hairy.
		
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They don't feel just the same as us. We are a rather peculiar species as we have the capacity to plan and to assign consequences and think what if. Horses and other mammals tend not to do that. Please bear that in mind when you are busy anthropomorphising your horses and dogs.  You horse wouldn't worry too much about knocking you out of the way if he was in danger so don't worry too much about hurting his feelings. 

And believe me, I'd gladly let someone else pinch me to keep me awake, I think it would work better, I also think other people might notice at that point!

If you want a human example of how this works why not look at military situations. In a war zone you do as your told or you get killed. If you don't do as your told and you endanger your comrades you get a severe dressing down. I fail to see much difference and I don't overly have a problem with either.


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## alligator40 (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			Would I like to scarf down half a pound of chicken ****, jump in a smelly pond, and try to shag a hairy blanket from Oxfam? No, but it ticks all the boxes for my labrador.

I am not a dog. He is not a person.
		
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ROFLROFL

you're on jolly good form S_A


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

amandap said:



			He may not be a human (person) and has his own individual species likes and dislikes but are you seriously saying that because he likes muddy ponds etc. he doesn't feel pain, fear, etc. 

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No, I'm saying he feels everything differently than I do.


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## Noodlebug (26 April 2011)

Would I like to scarf down half a pound of chicken ****, jump in a smelly pond, and try to shag a hairy blanket from Oxfam? No, but it ticks all the boxes for my labrador.

I am not a dog. He is not a person.


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## heidiharvsnroo (26 April 2011)

amandap said:



			If horses are trying to 'run out' or need 'motivating' shouldn't we be looking at *why* rather than just hitting them to make sure they do it? Surely that would be safer than relying on a little bit of stick and pain? Perhaps fences are too big, too dangerous, too much? 

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Some horses run out simply because they can! 

My last horse was a seasoned jumped but he used to take the pi** with me when I started jumping because he knew he could. And it all came down to me being frightened to give him a tap on his shoulder with my crop 3 strides before the jump, or in the middle of a double. 

Once I'd sussed that and accepted from my friend (his owner) that it was a case of being firm but fair,  he never refused, never ran our and 9 times out of 10 we'd finish in the top 3 of our class.

He might have gotten a bit tired towards the last jump but I'd still ask him to do it! I get tired on the last mile of a run but I still make myself go. If the horse is fit, healthy then asking it to carry on that little bit more is not unreasonable in my eyes.

The reason I retired my horse was because I could tell he wasn't 100% any more and didn't want to push him. Now he hacks and does a small jump course once every month (normally free schooled) to keep him going and he loves it. You can see him smiling all the way round!


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## amandap (26 April 2011)

jesstickle said:



			They don't feel just the same as us. We are a rather peculiar species as we have the capacity to plan and to assign consequences and think what if. Horses and other mammals tend not to do that. Please bear that in mind when you are busy anthropomorphising your horses and dogs.  You horse wouldn't worry too much about knocking you out of the way if he was in danger so don't worry too much about hurting his feelings. 

And believe me, I'd gladly let someone else pinch me to keep me awake, I think it would work better, I also think other people might notice at that point!

If you want a human example of how this works why not look at military situations. In a war zone you do as your told or you get killed. If you don't do as your told and you endanger your comrades you get a severe dressing down. I fail to see much difference and I don't overly have a problem with either.
		
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We as humans may have the capacity to control other species and different strengths in our brain capacity but that doesn't automaticallty mean that horses and other mammals don't feel emotion, physical pain, have excellent memories and the ability to learn. We train horses because they learn readily and remember their lessons well don't we?
I don't equate sport or pleasure pursuits the same way as war myself. Human conflict is a subject all it's own.

Horses have skin with nerves leading to the brain, horses can feel a fly land on their coat, horses have ears, noses and whiskers to smell, hear and sense danger and goodies and keep themselves safe. We have all these things, why on earth should we assume we 'feel' things any differently? I just don't get it...
There are many anecdotal stoires of horses 'sensing' stuff long before we can if we ever do and they certainly have better hearing and sense of smell than us.
Just because they don't express pain as overtly as we do (don't forget horses rarely cry out in pain as a human or dog would) is it fair and right of us to assume they don't feel it? Horses being a prey animal are programmed to hide weakness and pain but I certainly do not want to assume they don't feel it in the same or similar way we do. 

You might be happy to be pinched but not me, so how do you know horses are like you and not me?


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## charlie76 (26 April 2011)

My suggestion, for anyone questioning Mark Todds ability and judgement, is to email him with your concerns and offer to train him between now and 2012 olympics, I am sure he will be knocking your door down!


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## Walrus (26 April 2011)

Havn't read the whole thread, just skimmed bits of it. Cannot actually believe what I am reading. Probably the greatest eventer of several generations (he spans a few ) gives his adrenaline filled horse and couple of "focus" slaps with a stick jumping round one of the toughest XC courses on the planet and he's slated for it??????? The horse got home, passed the vet the next day and then came out with enough energy to win the flipping event! Not bad for a beaten and whipped horse, I bet it quakes in its boots whenever Mark Todd enters the stable! I tell you, if I had as much horsemanship as Mark Todd does in his little finger I'd be a happy bunny. Go and protest about something that actually needs it like live export or something.


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## Vizslak (26 April 2011)

Whilst I am initially highly amused by this thread I do also find it rather worrying at some peoples thoughts and attitudes! I mean really? Bloody Mark Todd eh...what a terrible horseman  You are clearly off your trolleys! 
I would also like to offer those who think a horse should never be smacked to come and ride my horse (by no means a 4* eventer) and see how you get on without a stick. I will video it and then we can post it on here.


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## sakura (26 April 2011)

I haven't read all the pages, but seriously? 

I agree with the above points, Mark Todd is an amazing horseman, I only wish I could have as much talent as he has in his little finger!

I was at Badminton, his horse was tired yes but he soon bounced back to pull out a fantastic, tense clear round on monday. He left his back legs going through the quarry, Mark let him recover well then gave him a tap to wake him up and make sure they got over the final element safely

Would you rather a horse who wasn't fully switched on was allowed to attempt the last element, standing a good chance of leaving his front legs and likely causing a rotational fall resulting in potentially fatal injuries to both horse and rider? I've seen that happen to far less accomplished horses. A horse needs to be switched on going xc, especially a course like badminton! They're not machines, sometimes their focus wanders from where it's meant to be. Mark Todd did everything right, I thought he rode brilliantly through there

Honestly ...... whatever next?


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## Nocturnal (26 April 2011)

LMFAO at some of the weirdos who frequent this forum!! Can't believe anyone could criticise the way Mark Todd rode on Sunday... he did everything right, he was fantastic!

Suggest you strange people who think otherwise look up Nevzorov... you'd have a lot in common!


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

well I hope those who haven't read the whole thread have noted that some of us said the same thing some pages back


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## Kal (26 April 2011)

Do you know what is really harming our sport?

It's not giving our horses a smack or a tug or asking that extra little bit out of them, but it's all you so called ''do gooders''.

Do you see other sports where the amateurs slate the top class pros. Yes you might get the odd 'oh he messed up there' or 'i wouldn't have done it that way' that's human nature and it's doesn't go any further.

But our sport is now reaching the media, weather it's in racing, eventing etc. It is being questioned if it should stay in the olympics. All these ''do gooders'' are ripping the sport apart and giving them amunition to get rid of it. We should be proud of our sport and support it in every way.

I would give my right arm to be like the pros but i don't have that gift or money so i compete at lower levels and follow the sport that i love.


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## monkeybum13 (26 April 2011)

Haven't been on the forum for a few days as I've been enjoying another fantastic Badminton with a very deserving winner and haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this post isn't really relevant. 

A thread accusing Mark Todd of "horse abuse"? Really? You have to be joking...
A man that imo is the best horseman on the planet.


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

Kal said:



			Do you know what is really harming our sport?

It's not giving our horses a smack or a tug or asking that extra little bit out of them, but it's all you so called ''do gooders''.

Do you see other sports where the amateurs slate the top class pros. Yes you might get the odd 'oh he messed up there' or 'i wouldn't have done it that way' that's human nature and it's doesn't go any further.

But our sport is now reaching the media, weather it's in racing, eventing etc. It is being questioned if it should stay in the olympics. All these ''do gooders'' are ripping the sport apart and giving them amunition to get rid of it. We should be proud of our sport and support it in every way.

I would give my right arm to be like the pros but i don't have that gift or money so i compete at lower levels and follow the sport that i love.
		
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Couldn't agree more, Kal, well put.

Except for the part about giving your right arm to ride like Toddy. I don't think that would work, but I take your point


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## Kal (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			Couldn't agree more, Kal, well put.

Except for the part about giving your right arm to ride like Toddy. I don't think that would work, but I take your point 

Click to expand...

Lol. Maybe my left then as i'm right handed


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## amandap (26 April 2011)

Lol, I don't see myself as a 'do gooder' and if you read my posts I have tried to talk generally about why I don't like the use of whips not about anyone in particular. Many don't agree, fair enough I don't expect anyone to take any notice of me.
However imo, another general point, no one is above criticism... Pat Parelli, Mark Todd or even the Queen of England. Only 'GODS' are above criticism and there is much made of some being 'mindless sheep' very frequently on forums when peeps don't agree. No offense meant to sheep btw. 

Oh but of course this is 'different'.


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## muffinino (26 April 2011)

Voltarama said:



			I just watched the very jump I think you're talking about. I can only assume you are a troll. The horse left its' back legs behind on the jump just before it, there were only three or four strides to the next jump. He used his whip to get the horse moving forward. A horse moving forward over a jump is a lot safer than a horse NOT moving forward. 

Seriously - Mark Todd doesn't have to prove anything at all. Horse finished - sure it was tired, but most horses are after finishing the xc. If he'd had to do that on three jumps in a row, then sure, the horse is too tired and should be retired. but it was the only use of the whip I saw and I've got to say, he is one of the best xc riders. You never see him pulling on the horses mouth to keep his balance or anything else that some of the other 4* riders do.
		
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This, entirely.

Having now seen the 'beating' the horse got I cannot believe people are making such a fuss! MT clearly smacked him to make him pay attention and that was the only time in the whole round that I saw him do so. I also note that he was using a padded racing type whip that is designed to not sting as much as other types, so whilst it will make an impact, it is not as harsh as other types. Do people seriously consider that a horse is being abused or beaten when smacked like MT did? Yes, it may sting for a few seconds but it is better that they learn to get on with a job and not injure themselves. I know some people say they would not push home a knackered horse, which I agree with, but the horse obviously didn't feel like that to MT as he would know it. I have absolute confidence that MT is able to judge a horse far better than just about anyone and was telling the horse to get with the programme, rather than punishing him.
After the Quarry the horse then went on to jump the rest of the course looking perfectly fine, so maybe it was his attention that was lagging more than his body. The fact is, he then went on to jump a round the next day and looking happy & enthusiastic about it after having been passed by the vets. Other horses on the course proved that you cannot beat a horse into doing something he does not want to do as some refused to jump (and in fact, were really quite naughty about it) despite having a good few smacks after a refusal or whilst backing off. I wish some people would focus as much energy into helping horses that are truly abused as they do wringing their hands about the correct use of a whip by the man who is probably the best rider in the world.


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## muffinino (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			Would I like to scarf down half a pound of chicken ****, jump in a smelly pond, and try to shag a hairy blanket from Oxfam? No.
		
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What...I...what? You don't?! F*c*socks! Why didn't anybody tell me?!


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## Kal (26 April 2011)

amandap said:



			Lol, I don't see myself as a 'do gooder' and if you read my posts I have tried to talk generally about why I don't like the use of whips not about anyone in particular. Many don't agree, fair enough I don't expect anyone to take any notice of me.
However imo, another general point, no one is above criticism... Pat Parelli, Mark Todd or even the Queen of England. Only 'GODS' are above criticism and there is much made of some being 'mindless sheep' very frequently on forums when peeps don't agree. No offense meant to sheep btw. 

Oh but of course this is 'different'. 

Click to expand...

There are some people in any sport that gives it a bad name. But the people who you have just mentioned are your opinion and should be kept so. I have people that i generally don't like but i keep this to myself unless they have done something very daming to the sport.

For example i can't stand Parelli but that's my opinion and he isn't bringing the sport to it's knees. We need to get into the media how well our riders are doing and what we're winning not the use of a whip to wake a horse up which every rider who rides have done.

And if you say you have never use a whip on any horse than either your lieing or you have many broken bones where the horse has walked all over you. In the wild how do you think the head of the herd keeps control, he bites and kicks until he gets them listening to him. We have to do this as these are big animals we are dealing with who don't know there own strength. And we deal with it in a nicer way to bites and kicks with a sharpe tap with the whip which will hurt less than if it was within a herd.


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

muffinino said:



			what...i...what? You don't?! F*c*socks! Why didn't anybody tell me?!
		
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:d :d :d
at the third attempt to edit that to look like three big grins I have given up. 
ROFLOL instead.


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## amandap (26 April 2011)

Kal said:



			There are some people in any sport that gives it a bad name. But the people who you have just mentioned are your opinion and should be kept so. I have people that i generally don't like but i keep this to myself unless they have done something very daming to the sport.
		
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Most of it is our opinion though isn't it. Many people can get rosettes, win comps, make loadsa dosh but for me it's HOW this is done that is important when an animal is the means to do it.

I know very little about Parelli or Mark Todd they are both just humans like me and you though and if either do something I don't agree with, it doesn't make it right in my eyes just because it was someone I happen to admire who did it.


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## marmalade76 (26 April 2011)

I haven't read the whole thread, sorry, but with all this talk comparing eventing to the GN I just wanted to ask, out of interest, what action would be taken against a jockey if he were to carry on over the last fence and across the finish on an obvoiusly lame horse? AFAIA, Amy Tryon only recieved a two month ban and a fine of between $2 and $3k. I have seen jockeys pull up and jump off horses that weren't obviously lame, yet saw Amy Tryon carry on on a horse that was virtually on three legs. Just interested....


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

marmalade76 said:



			I haven't read the whole thread, sorry, but with all this talk comparing eventing to the GN I just wanted to ask, out of interest, what action would be taken against a jockey if he were to carry on over the last fence and across the finish on an obvoiusly lame horse? AFAIA, Amy Tryon only recieved a two month ban and a fine of between $2 and $3k. I have seen jockeys pull up and jump off horses that weren't obviously lame, yet saw Amy Tryon carry on on a horse that was virtually on three legs. Just interested....
		
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And furthermore, I believe Alexander the Great may have whopped Bucephelus one quite unnecessarily on the left bank of the Hydaspes, and the poor sod died from his wounds. What are BE going to do about THAT, eh?


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## amandap (26 April 2011)

marmalade76 said:



			I haven't read the whole thread, sorry, but with all this talk comparing eventing to the GN I just wanted to ask, out of interest, what action would be taken against a jockey if he were to carry on over the last fence and across the finish on an obvoiusly lame horse? AFAIA, Amy Tryon only recieved a two month ban and a fine of between $2 and $3k. I have seen jockeys pull up and jump off horses that weren't obviously lame, yet saw Amy Tryon carry on on a horse that was virtually on three legs. Just interested....
		
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Yes, this is what it always comes down to. It's alright because so and so did it or ah, but it's different in racing, show jumping or eventing. 

Surely horses are horses and treating them fairly and with respect is what matters across all that we do with them?  That is the point I'm failing to make.


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## Kal (26 April 2011)

amandap said:



			Yes, this is what it always comes down to. It's alright because so and so did it or ah, but it's different in racing, show jumping or eventing. 

Surely horses are horses and treating them fairly and with respect is what matters across all that we do with them?  That is the point I'm failing to make. 

Click to expand...

Ok so i treat my horse like a fairy, he is 600kg Throughbred cross, i have been feeding him lots because that nice for him. I ride him, he acts a bit silly, i just sit there because i'm not aloud to tell him off, he then starts getting faster thinking he's free, he's bucking and messing around because that what he does when he's free, if i'm still sat on at this point, what do i do.

Or

When he first starts acting silly, give him a slap to remind him he has to work now, he behaves himself, we have a lovely ride. I can turn him out to then go silly. And next time i ride he remembers that it is work time.

I think i'm still treating him with respect and then he will treat me with respect. Horses don't have brains like adult humans, they are more like children so they need telling what is right and what is wrong.


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## Kal (26 April 2011)

Also people don't just buy a horse for thousands then beat it to death, they want a return for there money so that means treating them like a star althete to keep them fit and heathly. The longer they live and heathier they are the more money they will win.

If these people didn't love and respect the horses they would choose another sport to do.

I am getting a sore head now by banging it against a brick wall


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## amandap (26 April 2011)

I don't understand what feeding lots and or slapping him has to do with having rules and teaching him what you want when riding or whatever? 

As far as I see it you are trained to think that a slap will produce a good ride, have you ever had a good ride without a slap? If not then I expect it's part of your routine and he's used to it and has come to expect it. 
Being fair to me doesn't mean over feeding, 'spoiling' or having no rules etc.

Mta... treating them like a star (in human terms) is that 'love' though? I'm sure most horses are very much loved...


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## muffinino (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			:d :d :d
at the third attempt to edit that to look like three big grins I have given up. 
ROFLOL instead.
		
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 is : and D if that makes sense 

Guess I'll have to quit humping blankies in M & S, then...


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## Kal (26 April 2011)

amandap said:



			I don't understand what feeding lots and or slapping him has to do with having rules and teaching him what you want when riding or whatever? 

As far as I see it you are trained to think that a slap will produce a good ride, have you ever had a good ride without a slap? If not then I expect it's part of your routine and he's used to it and has come to expect it. 
Being fair to me doesn't mean over feeding, 'spoiling' or having no rules etc.

Mta... treating them like a star (in human terms) is that 'love' though? I'm sure most horses are very much loved...
		
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I mentioned the overfeeding bit because that's what most ''do gooders'' think, i know cause there are a lot down my yard. I don't overfeed.

I actually have lots of lovely rides without my whip. I was trying to make a point. I don't actually carry a whip with my horse that i have now because he doesn't need it but the mare a had before did.

She was 17hh. I broken her in very nicely, lovely couple of years, well manered then her teenager years kicked in and she started rearing on the road in front of cars, undangering her, myself and other road users. and a kick and a shout didn't make any difference.

You seem to tar all horses with the same brush.


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## amandap (26 April 2011)

Kal said:



			You seem to tar all horses with the same brush.
		
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I don't think I'm tarring horses at all, the opposite in fact. To me horses are generally what we make them or teach them and how we treat them. This of course depends to some extent on their individual personalities. A nervous horse wouldn't respond the same way as a bolder horse so we need to adapt...
the onus being on us humans to adapt imo, we are after all the ones with the brains, so many say.


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## pip6 (26 April 2011)

I dream of MT riding one of the eventers we have bred. Congrats on a superb performance.

IMHO racesafe whips should be compulsory at all affiliated horse events (including SJ), which will hopefully then trickle down to unaffiliated where I believe the majority of whip abuse occurs (just go watch a local hunter trial for whip tantrums).


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## BSJAlove (26 April 2011)

havent read any replies.

as a rider, you can feel when your horse needs a reminder. if im a stride out of a jump and the horse losses concentration, im going to tell him to go forwards! and if using a whip gets you out of trouble then so be it. 

i personally dont think the whip was over used.


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## mcnaughty (26 April 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			Long time ago.  But he was well enough schooled to NOT need pulled in the mouth.  Its up to us to put brakes on our horses, not just pull on their mouth when the brakes fail.
		
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OMG - you seriously do not know what on earth you are talking about.  Stop, rewind and watch the dressage tests they all performed and then come back on here and say that those horses are not well schooled.  Also, have any of you that are criticising the riders actually been to Badminton?  I very much doubt it or you would be fully aware of the extremely complicated combinations that are part of the course.  These jumps are not little piles of sticks, they are enormous and the accuracy that you need to clear them is so precise it takes years of training to get to that level and stay there.  

Toddy won it - fantastic - the man took 8 years out and came back to win Badminton and probably secure his place on the NZ olympic team for 2012.  Those of you who are criticising him for giving his horse a sharp wake up and shake up have absolutely no idea and should stick to what you know best.....

The optimum time at Badminton is so tight that you need to gallop, collect, jump (sometimes with several complicated and tight turns and bounces) then gallop again onto the next fence - if you seriously think that an ultra fit TB (yes most of them are at least 95% TB) will gallop and then come back without a bit of a fight then you are living in cloud cc land.


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## Tinkerbee (26 April 2011)

I really don't understand how some people were taught to ride 
If I faffed around on the approach to a fence, dropped the contact, took my leg off and the horse refused I was told to get it together and ride properly on the second go.
However if I'm riding at it properly and the horse is perfectly capable of physically jumping (ie not lame or overfaced) and puts in a cheeky stop/run out I was told to give him a smack to buck his ideas up and really drive him over the fence next time.

I'm younger than most posters on this thread so who on earth taught them?!


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## mcnaughty (26 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			Very well said! I also wonder how popular Crufts and the annual dog agility at Olympia would be if the dogs received a 'reminder' or umpteen of them. Or if coaches/trainers got out the whip to 'wake-up' their athletes running in the 10,000 metre event.  

I had actually begun to see the argument for using a whip to keep a horse straight in racing, but my mind was very quickly changed after seeing this video. Upon seeing the whip, several horses in the video veered away/spooked, and ended-up endangering the other runners by crossing their paths. One actually caught the leg of another and almost brought him down. And with all those whips waving about, two horses were smacked in the face.  One horse even took a crashing fall after becoming more fixated on the whip than the fence. The races in the video took place over a period of just a few days. Imagine how often such things happen over the course of a year!
		
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Read the title of the thread and comment accordingly please -


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## Elf On A Shelf (26 April 2011)

*watches some paint dry*

That is far more interesting than this conversation has got!

Ooooh! The paints at that half dry half wet stage! Woohoo!


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## Over2You (26 April 2011)

mcnaughty said:



			Read the title of the thread and comment accordingly please -
		
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I think my comments were bang on topic! If horses react in such a way to whips in racing, then why not in eventing or other horse sports? Or is it going to take an accident (possibly a fatal one) before you pro-whippers question the use of them?


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			I think my comments were bang on topic! If horses react in such a way to whips in racing, then why not in eventing or other horse sports? Or is it going to take an accident (possibly a fatal one) before you pro-whippers question the use of them?
		
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OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.
Sorry but this is now getting beyond a joke. 'Pro-whippers'???? Next we'll be 'Parelli Deniers'. 

what are you TALKING about?

Never in all my long and chequered career have I seen so much crap in one place and I have done a LOT of muckheaps in my time.


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## MICHAELA8228 (26 April 2011)

My own opinion is if a rider is balanced and kind to the horse for the whole round, and gives it a good run, and a slap in front of a fence when it's backing off, I think thats completely justified use of the whip. I'm sure horses would far rather have Mark Todd ride them and give them a slap to say 'come on buddy, pick up!!' than someone out of balance and hauling on their mouth for 12 minutes. There are far worse ways to treat a horse than to give it a slap and send it forward. Equally it's far better to smack a tired horse to make it wake up and get over a fence than to leave it alone and have it very honestly have a crack anyway, not pick up and have a rotational fall.[/QUOTE]

Here here!!!


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## MICHAELA8228 (26 April 2011)

EKW said:



			*watches some paint dry*

That is far more interesting than this conversation has got!

Ooooh! The paints at that half dry half wet stage! Woohoo!
		
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lol!!!! Classic!!


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## chestnut cob (26 April 2011)

amandap said:



			Yes, this is what it always comes down to. It's alright because so and so did it or ah, but it's different in racing, show jumping or eventing. 

Surely horses are horses and treating them fairly and with respect is what matters across all that we do with them?  That is the point I'm failing to make. 

Click to expand...

But no one has ever said that what Amy Tyron did was right!  In fact IIRC people went beserk on HHO about that episode.  AT's horse was lame and she failed to notice.  Mark Todd's horse was NOT lame, he was getting tired.  That horse would have seen a vet as soon as he crossed the XC finish line, and then had to pass the next morning's trot up to get to the SJ.  His horse was never lame and was certainly not forced into doing anything.

I don't know how you can suggest MT didn't treat his horse with respect.  I really doubt you can force any horse to jump around a 4* course -  surely at that level, the horses have to LOVE their job??  I actually think those horses and riders must have the most amazing partnerships to get around safely.


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## georgiegirl (26 April 2011)

*sigh* I really do tire of the 'pony patters' brigade.....

Next you'll be saying mark todd is a horrible human being for putting shoes on his horse and not riding with a wip *** instead 

He hardly beat the horse to within an inch of its life - the horse was givin a sharp but fair and well timed reminder for both horse and rider safety.

Hardly looked like a beaten ill treated horse in the showjumping.


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## Elf On A Shelf (26 April 2011)

I was speaking to eventer friend just now and I couldn't believe how stringent the vet trot ups are! A horse I would pass sound and fit to do it's work and race would get a huge big fat red F at an event for the slightest, tinyiest minutest thing that a normal person wouldn't spot. So if Todd's horse was suffering from adverse effects from being "beaten" then I am pretty sure it would never have passed the trot up.

I'm going back to watching my paint dry now  It's nearly done you know! Most of it is now one colour, you can tell the wet bits as they are fractionally darker, not much, but just enough to fail my expert eye of wet and dry paint!


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2011)

georgiegirl said:



			a wip *** instead 

Click to expand...

He he w.o.p is filtered out. I know it's original context isn't nice but I do think it might be useful on a horsey forum given that we use it with another meaning here!

Crazy swear filter!!


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## georgiegirl (26 April 2011)

I must be missing something as I was very confused it was filtered out! I didnt even know it had another meaning! Dare I google it to find out?


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## amandap (26 April 2011)

chestnut cob said:



			I don't know how you can suggest MT didn't treat his horse with respect.  I really doubt you can force any horse to jump around a 4* course -  surely at that level, the horses have to LOVE their job??  I actually think those horses and riders must have the most amazing partnerships to get around safely.
		
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I didn't single anyone out!  To me whipping any living animal is disrespectful. We constantly ask horses to 'respect' us, stay out of our space, not bite or kick us but it's ok for us the hit them. 

I'm obviously just in a world of my own.  I don't think it's ok for anyone to hit a horse or another living being, a simple rule for me that stops all the 'ah buts' and 'oh but he/she knows best, 'but in racing or eventing etc. it's ok because...' 
Too simple though for experienced, knowlegable riders obviously.  To be frank I don't want to learn when it's ok to whip and when it's not.


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

amandap said:



			I didn't single anyone out!  To me whipping any living animal is disrespectful. We constantly ask horses to 'respect' us, stay out of our space, not bite or kick us but it's ok for us the hit them. 

I'm obviously just in a world of my own.  I don't think it's ok for anyone to hit a horse or another living being, a simple rule for me that stops all the 'ah buts' and 'oh but he/she knows best, 'but in racing or eventing etc. it's ok because...' 
Too simple though for experienced, knowlegable riders obviously.  To be frank I don't want to learn when it's ok to whip and when it's not. 

Click to expand...

That is a valid viewpoint, not however consistent with competing at this level. I think this is where the problem lies.
You can keep a horse and never hit it. I don't think you could guarantee to get round Badminton on it with that approach, though. So basically, if you don't agree that the rider should impose his will on the horse, then you don't agree with eventing, or any other competitive discipline, I would suggest?


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2011)

georgiegirl said:



			I must be missing something as I was very confused it was filtered out! I didnt even know it had another meaning! Dare I google it to find out?
		
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It's racist. Google away, nothing dirty. It originally stood for without passport and was a derogatory term for Italians? and other immigrants in America. I think that's right anyway.


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## chestnut cob (26 April 2011)

georgiegirl said:



			I must be missing something as I was very confused it was filtered out! I didnt even know it had another meaning! Dare I google it to find out?
		
Click to expand...

Edited what I originally put as someone else posted what it means below!

I thought it was going to be something rude!!


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## chestnut cob (26 April 2011)

amandap said:



			I didn't single anyone out!  To me whipping any living animal is disrespectful. We constantly ask horses to 'respect' us, stay out of our space, not bite or kick us but it's ok for us the hit them. 

I'm obviously just in a world of my own.  I don't think it's ok for anyone to hit a horse or another living being, a simple rule for me that stops all the 'ah buts' and 'oh but he/she knows best, 'but in racing or eventing etc. it's ok because...' 
Too simple though for experienced, knowlegable riders obviously.  To be frank I don't want to learn when it's ok to whip and when it's not. 

Click to expand...

There is a world of a difference though between beating a horse and giving him a tap as a back up to the aids in front of a jump.  I'd rather see a 4* event horse get a tap with a whip before a big fence that watch Linda Parelli battering a horse around the face with the clip of a leadrope to make it stand still...

I've yet to see a Parelli-fied horse who looks like it enjoys life or respects its handler, yet those eventers at Badminton were fit, happy and had bright eyes...


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## Over2You (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.
Sorry but this is now getting beyond a joke. 'Pro-whippers'???? Next we'll be 'Parelli Deniers'. 

what are you TALKING about?

Never in all my long and chequered career have I seen so much crap in one place and I have done a LOT of muckheaps in my time.
		
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You know fine well what I am talking about! Whipping is completely unnecessary. As Amandap pointed out, it is not okay for a horse to disrespect us, but it is perfectly alright for us to whip them. Natural horse people like Kelly Marks, Chris Cox, Monty Roberts, Richard Maxwell, and Julie Goodnight, prove time after time that there is no need to whip a horse. I am sorry, but there is something wrong if you cannot ride without a whip. I never ride with one and have never had a trust or respect issue. This is because my horse genuinely trusts and respects me. He does not fear me for brandishing a whip, nor do I justify any of his fears by giving him a beating.


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			You know fine well what I am talking about! Whipping is completely unnecessary. As Amandap pointed out, it is not okay for a horse to disrespect us, but it is perfectly alright for us to whip them. Natural horse people like Kelly Marks, Chris Cox, Monty Roberts, Richard Maxwell, and Julie Goodnight, prove time after time that there is no need to whip a horse. I am sorry, but there is something wrong if you cannot ride without a whip. I never ride with one and have never had a trust or respect issue. This is because my horse genuinely trusts and respects me. He does not fear me for brandishing a whip, nor do I justify any of his fears by giving him a beating.
		
Click to expand...

That is up to you, but it isn't a position you can take, in my mind, if you intend to get round Badminton. 
Prove me wrong at your leisure.


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## alligator40 (26 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			Natural horse people like Kelly Marks, Chris Cox, Monty Roberts, Richard Maxwell, and Julie Goodnight, prove time after time that there is no need to whip a horse..
		
Click to expand...

... in their Public Demo's, no, you dont


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## Elf On A Shelf (26 April 2011)

There is also another VERY good reason for carrying a stick - leading or riding - if the horse gets bored they can chew it rather than chew the handler/rider!


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

EKW said:



			There is also another VERY good reason for carrying a stick - leading or riding - if the horse gets bored they can chew it rather than chew the handler/rider!
		
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a whole new thread! Scratch down your wellies if it gets hot and itchy as well.


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## amandap (26 April 2011)

EKW said:



			There is also another VERY good reason for carrying a stick - leading or riding - if the horse gets bored they can chew it rather than chew the handler/rider!
		
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That is a great use for a whip. Willow or other tasty or medicinal woods could be used.


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## Groom42 (26 April 2011)

But, all you need to do is ask nicely - any horse will respond to that if it truly respects you - after all, they sooooo want to please!  

There is a world of difference between "whipping" and a sharp reminder to buck up and concentrate.
You can "reason" as much with a horse, as you can with a toddler - sometimes you need enforce a message in such a way that means "no discussion", either for safety or behaviour reasons.  And if that enforcement avoids accident, it is perfectly justified. 
And, as for "violent outburst"..........._seriously?_.


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## marmalade76 (26 April 2011)

My own personal view on the use of the whip is that for use to encourage a horse to jump as Toddy did is fine, but if a horse needs the stick at every fence, then perhaps it needs another job. I thought the use of the whip on Drivetime at the water was rather un-necessary and I think it was done out of temper, but that's just my opinion. I think hitting a genuinely tired horse (I'm thinking of the German on the black horse as he was approaching the quarry) is unfair and pointless. 

I also did not think much to Lucinda Fredricks' showing off when she had finished the course, she should have jumped off and loosened her girth like everyone else did.


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

oh yes, Lucinda - clearly she's the worlds worst at keeping a tricksy little horse fit and well and up to the mark, and needs all the advice we can give her. NOOOOOOOOOT. 
When you've all emailed Mark Todd to tell him where he went wrong, you could sort Team Fredericks out, I'm sure they'll be most grateful.


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## amandap (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			That is a valid viewpoint, not however consistent with competing at this level. I think this is where the problem lies.
You can keep a horse and never hit it. I don't think you could guarantee to get round Badminton on it with that approach, though. So basically, if you don't agree that the rider should impose his will on the horse, then you don't agree with eventing, or any other competitive discipline, I would suggest?
		
Click to expand...

Thankyou.

It has nothing to do with imposing your will on a horse that may have to be done at times of emergency etc. but do we need to hit? Somehow hitting for me is an act of disrespect and if I expect my horses to listen to and 'respect' me the least I can do is respect their bodies. 
It's my fundamental rule. 
I wonder if they could get round Badminton without a whip? Perhaps there should be the odd whip free comp?


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## BSJAlove (26 April 2011)

so if you were riding on the road and you had an ar*ehole driver coming past with no room and your horse was freaking out at something. you were kicking with all your might to get the horse to move forward or youd both end up under a car, id use my whip!

if my horse was a stride out of a jump and was too late to stop but felt like he was going to stop/run out, id use my whip!

if my horse was being a general prat for no reason, id use my whip!

horses are dangerous. some of them, you give them an inch and they take a mile. i dont know about anyone else but if my horse was about to back on to a cars bonnet, id rather use my whip to send him forwards then risk My life. i have a family.


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## aimsymc (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again lmao! yeah prada really loooked like she was desperate to stop!


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## mcnaughty (26 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			You know fine well what I am talking about! Whipping is completely unnecessary. As Amandap pointed out, it is not okay for a horse to disrespect us, but it is perfectly alright for us to whip them. Natural horse people like Kelly Marks, Chris Cox, Monty Roberts, Richard Maxwell, and Julie Goodnight, prove time after time that there is no need to whip a horse. I am sorry, but there is something wrong if you cannot ride without a whip. I never ride with one and have never had a trust or respect issue. This is because my horse genuinely trusts and respects me. He does not fear me for brandishing a whip, nor do I justify any of his fears by giving him a beating.
		
Click to expand...

When you and AmandaP are good enough riders to compete for your country then I believe you then have the right to criticise someone of Toddy's calibre.  Until then I suggest you do a bit more research about the sports you are criticising because it is SAFER for the rider and horse to give them a shake up and wake up with a whip.


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## Alec Swan (26 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			........ Natural horse people like Kelly Marks, Chris Cox, Monty Roberts, Richard Maxwell, and Julie Goodnight, prove time after time that there is no need to whip a horse. I am sorry, but there is something wrong if you cannot ride without a whip.......
		
Click to expand...

Without question,  you've dropped in the names of the great and the good.  One question for you.  Just how many of them have ridden at International level?  

It isn't their field,  and were you to ask them,  I suspect that they'd tell you that the top level of competition,  isn't really where they are.  They would probably tell you that they offer assistance to the best,  but at a base level.  

When you've managed to replicate the achievements of the very best,  then you can tell your peers that they are wrong.  Until then,  and were I you,  I'd think before I post.  Your choice. 

Alec.


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## sportsmansB (26 April 2011)

Ref Lucinda- seeing as her horse was clearly so full of running at the end, slowing down gently allowing the adrenalin to decrease in the horse, and the heartbeat to slow gradually, decrease the lactic acid, etc etc was testament to how fit and well prepared her mare was. All these horses are walked (smartly) for several minutes as soon as the rider dismounts anyway (I know, I had the shin splints to prove it after tattersalls 3 day one year!) , if they were wrapped in cotton wool and put in a stable they would seize up something shocking!

Do you think if all these riders had NEVER used a whip, they would have produced horses to this level who are straight and not spooky about ditches/water/coffins/ whatever? What about someone who feels their horse is hanging on one rein and gives a slap on the shoulder approaching a combination so that they don't get an awkward jump or a fall? Should that not be allowed either? Should they jsut ask them politely with a half halt on the rubber snaffle and a little bit of leg behind the girth?! At 4* speed and adrenalin for horse and rider, that just wouldn't cut it. 

Re: Drivetime- that horse has sooo much potential but just can't seem to get his head around Badminton lake- should he have been allowed to stop 3 times and never go in, when he clearly has the ability to jump the fences and couldn't have got to 4* being frightened of water? 

Some times people need a push to do something they think they don't want to, from a friend/trainer/family member, and then are surprised to find how easy it is and can go on doing whatever it is to a better and better skill level. 

If 4yo eventers were allowed to pick and choose what fences they liked the look of and what ones they didn't, we wouldn't have a sport. Coaxing them over with a carrot is not really practical every time.  If dressage horses were allowed to decide that they would rather not collect and show some impulsion, they would never reach beyond novice, and we wouldn't have a sport. 

I don't for one moment advocate any kind of horse cruelty, but I have seen much much worse riding and handling from amateurs who have no/limited knowledge than from Pros who by their very nature want to win! 
And remember- it doesn't matter whether they finish the xc or not, if they can't pass the trot up, it is meaningless (and worse than having time faults for going too slow) and pro eventers know this better than anyone. 
Anyway thats my bit. 

Can't believe Toddy got the worst of this, all he did was give his horse the equivalent of that tired pinch to get his focus back. I dare say had he had another scramble at the last log of the combination (which he never looked like having, his actions had the desired effect, he made the stride he expected to and the horse got a second wind) he would have retired. He is far sighted enough to know after all these years that there is always another day.


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## Fellewell (26 April 2011)

We're not talking Saturday morning at the riding school or even county level where you CAN see whip abuse on a regular basis. No; we're talking about one of the greatest riders of our era and frankly it's bordering on defamation and should be stopped
At least two villages are missing their idiots today.


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## Rouletterose (26 April 2011)

I agree with you Fellewell, this thread is now way over the top and name calling some of eventings top riders by some posters that don't know what they're talking about.

I hope MT is not reading this. TFC where are you PULL this thread please.


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

Rouletterose said:



			I agree with you Fellewell, this thread is now way over the top and name calling some of eventings top riders by some posters that don't know what they're talking about.

I hope MT is not reading this. TFC where are you PULL this thread please.
		
Click to expand...

I shouldn't think Toddy gives a tinkers cuss what some pillock on here thinks of his riding, tbh.
I came on here this morning spitting nails because it made me so cross to see such utter rubbish talked about one of the greatest of riders, and I am still spanking mad that someone is now calling Lucinda's judgement into question, as it's a complete pile of pooh, that mare was still firing on all four. But I wouldn't think it would bother either of them. 

I don't think there's any confusion over who the halfwits are in this scenario.


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## dozzie (26 April 2011)

A master at work.


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## Rouletterose (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			I shouldn't think Toddy gives a tinkers cuss what some pillock on here thinks of his riding, tbh.
I came on here this morning spitting nails because it made me so cross to see such utter rubbish talked about one of the greatest of riders, and I am still spanking mad that someone is now calling Lucinda's judgement into question, as it's a complete pile of pooh, that mare was still firing on all four. But I wouldn't think it would bother either of them. 

I don't think there's any confusion over who the halfwits are in this scenario.
		
Click to expand...

Agree... MT is too big a man/rider to be bothered by such things, and LF is the same, I'm more concerned that Horse and Hound magazine is allowing such drivel to be posted!!! 
In my opinion it is bordering on defamation of character.


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## aimsymc (26 April 2011)

hear hear!


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

we now await similar snaps of AmandaP and Over2You demonstrating w
here he's going wrong.


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## mcnaughty (26 April 2011)

amandap said:



			Thankyou.

It has nothing to do with imposing your will on a horse that may have to be done at times of emergency etc. but do we need to hit? Somehow hitting for me is an act of disrespect and if I expect my horses to listen to and 'respect' me the least I can do is respect their bodies. 
It's my fundamental rule. 
I wonder if they could get round Badminton without a whip? Perhaps there should be the odd whip free comp? 

Click to expand...

You talk of disrespect - YOU are being disrespectful of one of the greatest horsemen who has ever lived.  Learn to show some respect yourself and stop making a complete fool of yourself!


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

mcnaughty said:



			You talk of disrespect - YOU are being disrespectful of one of the greatest horsemen who has ever lived.  Learn to show some respect yourself and stop making a complete fool of yourself!
		
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Well said.


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## dozzie (26 April 2011)

There were only maybe 4 or five strides between the two logs. Not really time for a conversation.The horse made a mistake at the first log, Mark picked him up fast, gave him a wake up call and got him over the second. Had he not done that the horse may have had a fall. As far as I could see, the whip was used to give the message that another fence was coming.

" Hey mate, forget that mistake, it's ok.. we have something else to do now..so let's crack on"


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## wizoz (26 April 2011)

Will people just get real for a minute PLEASE.  Carrying a whip does not mean it gives the rider the right to beat their horse, it is there for back-up, a 3rd leg and at times, discipline. There have been times where I have had to use the whip on my horse/s for one reason or another but I have never abused it, how else do you discipline, pat it on the neck? 

I watched Emily Baldwin smack Drivetime, 3 good smacks, as I was taught, I don't see a problem with that i'm afraid. 

For those of you who like to treat horses like fluffy bunnies, that's entirely up to you, as a competitor and someone who trains her horses, I will continue to use my whip as and when it is needed but rest assured, it will never be abused.


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## Vizslak (26 April 2011)

amandap said:



			I didn't single anyone out!  To me whipping any living animal is disrespectful. We constantly ask horses to 'respect' us, stay out of our space, not bite or kick us but it's ok for us the hit them. 

I'm obviously just in a world of my own.  I don't think it's ok for anyone to hit a horse or another living being, a simple rule for me that stops all the 'ah buts' and 'oh but he/she knows best, 'but in racing or eventing etc. it's ok because...' 
Too simple though for experienced, knowlegable riders obviously.  To be frank I don't want to learn when it's ok to whip and when it's not. 

Click to expand...

Again, please come and ride my horse so we can video it! Then I will eat my words I promise!


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## Vizslak (26 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			You know fine well what I am talking about! Whipping is completely unnecessary. As Amandap pointed out, it is not okay for a horse to disrespect us, but it is perfectly alright for us to whip them. Natural horse people like Kelly Marks, Chris Cox, Monty Roberts, Richard Maxwell, and Julie Goodnight, prove time after time that there is no need to whip a horse. I am sorry, but there is something wrong if you cannot ride without a whip. I never ride with one and have never had a trust or respect issue. This is because my horse genuinely trusts and respects me. He does not fear me for brandishing a whip, nor do I justify any of his fears by giving him a beating.
		
Click to expand...

You can come ride my horse too then and we can video that as well. I will be impressed, genuinely, if you can get a tune out of him without carrying a stick. And no I dont ALWAYS carry a whip, it does depend on what you are riding, nor have I ever 'beaten' a horse, I have used a whip on them though!


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## alligator40 (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			I shouldn't think Toddy gives a tinkers cuss what some pillock on here thinks of his riding, tbh.
I came on here this morning spitting nails because it made me so cross to see such utter rubbish talked about one of the greatest of riders, and I am still spanking mad that someone is now calling Lucinda's judgement into question, as it's a complete pile of pooh, that mare was still firing on all four. But I wouldn't think it would bother either of them. 

I don't think there's any confusion over who the halfwits are in this scenario.
		
Click to expand...

here-here......or should that be hear-hear?


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## Mrs B (26 April 2011)

alligator40 said:



			here-here......or should that be hear-hear?
		
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I think you'll find the correct wording is:

"Wot they said^^^^^^^^" 

I will bore you all senseless again when I say "If I could ride one stride like Mr Todd, I would die happy."


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## dozzie (26 April 2011)

Mrs B said:



			I think you'll find the correct wording is:

"Wot they said^^^^^^^^" 

I will bore you all senseless again when I say "If I could ride one stride like Mr Todd, I would die happy."
		
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Nah...the correct wording is Beer! Beer!

MT got Land Vision through the complex safely BECAUSE he used the whip. By the time he had got his balance Mark had about 3 strides to the log up a steep incline and was on the gallop. IMO he did the best thing.

I love MT! So glad he is back!


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## amandap (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			we now await similar snaps of AmandaP and Over2You demonstrating w
here he's going wrong.
		
Click to expand...

LOL! Not much point as it seems I'm already making a fool of my self.  
See below. 



mcnaughty said:



			You talk of disrespect - YOU are being disrespectful of one of the greatest horsemen who has ever lived.  Learn to show some respect yourself and stop making a complete fool of yourself!
		
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Erm, I had shut up.


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## Mrs B (26 April 2011)

dozzie said:



			Nah...the correct wording is Beer! Beer!

MT got Land Vision through the complex safely BECAUSE he used the whip. By the time he had got his balance Mark had about 3 strides to the log up a steep incline and was on the gallop. IMO he did the best thing.

I love MT! So glad he is back! 

Click to expand...

 No! If it was Beer! Beer! there'd be 6 strides to the log and possibly two logs....


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## DragonSlayer (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			we now await similar snaps of AmandaP and Over2You demonstrating w
here he's going wrong.
		
Click to expand...

I DID request a video of someone else on another thread, of their riding so we could have a look....I'm still waiting.

I think we will be waiting for an eternity, because hidden behind a keyboard, it's easy to slag someone off.

Would be nice to see some of these posters say all this to the eventers themselves...

'Hey, just wanted to say, Mr. Todd.....I was appalled by your riding, the way you beat that horse round, obviously you ain't got it schooled right, would you like me to give you a few pointers? by the way, you are crap....'...

At which point, Mr. Todd can do one of several things.

Punch you in the nose, which you deserve....

Shove the 1st place rosette where the sun don't shine, because it's what you deserve...

OR say this...

'who the hell are you?'..

'I'M from HHO! ...and I know it all! didn't you know? Everyone is an expert on there....would you like me to give you some riding lessons?...and teac you how to school your 4* eventer so it goes in a snaffle and doesn't need a whip?'...

At this point, I'd imagine the air might be quite blue, or you might be coughing up your teeth....


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## Alec Swan (26 April 2011)

Mrs B said:



			.......I will bore you all senseless again when I say "If I could ride one stride like Mr Todd, I would die happy."
		
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You aren't alone!  

Alec.

Ets,  and those who can't see the made point,  should be banned from this forum,  if for no other reason,  than crass stupidity!   a.


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## amandap (26 April 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			I DID request a video of someone else on another thread, of their riding so we could have a look....I'm still waiting.
		
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I got tired of waiting for your reply so I checked the other thread and the person you asked was not someone called Amanda!  I'm not involved in that thread.


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## Vizslak (26 April 2011)

I have asked you to come ride mine so we can video it! No need to feel left out


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## DragonSlayer (26 April 2011)

amandap said:



			I got tired of waiting for your reply so I checked the other thread and the person you asked was not someone called Amanda!  I'm not involved in that thread.
		
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I did reply, you will have to go back and read this thread to find it...its there.


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## Mrs B (26 April 2011)

Fair enough, Alec - would you like to choose a canter left stride or canter right? Or a cheeky little transition? Or maybe a canter to halt at x? Or the last stride before one of those cheek-clenchingly enormous fences? Or the crucial one to place Land Vision just right for the final fence on the sj course...

I could go on (and make no apology if I do)


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## DragonSlayer (26 April 2011)

Anyway folks, watch this and cheer yourselves up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lnl8ySG3os


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## alligator40 (26 April 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Ets,  and those who can't see the made point,  should be banned from this forum,  if for no other reason,  than crass stupidity!   a.
		
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sorry, SA..THIS is the post of the day!!..in fact, i would go as far as saying it's up there as post of the year.


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## amandap (26 April 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			I did reply, you will have to go back and read this thread to find it...its there.



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Sorry missed it. Must be that tacky paint!  Arghh, nope, can't face reading my boring, foolish posts again!


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## dozzie (26 April 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Anyway folks, watch this and cheer yourselves up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lnl8ySG3os

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That is Laura Ingalls!


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## muffinino (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.
Sorry but this is now getting beyond a joke. 'Pro-whippers'???? Next we'll be 'Parelli Deniers'.
		
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I'd happily be labelled a 'Parelli Denier' 

Also, skewbald_again, 'tinker's cuss'! LMAO! MT has probably heard worse aimed at him than this, although perhaps not so much for a correctly applied whip, and I think he has enough supporters not to worry that the whole horse world can't see why he did it  As Mrs B said: I will bore you all senseless again when I say "If I could ride one stride like Mr Todd, I would die happy." This, 10 times over!

Mark Todd, what a guy! 

For the record, I never ride without a whip even though I trust my horse and in general he seems to trust me. However, that can go out the window if there's a life-threatening situation on the road, such as a plastic bag or a leaf turned the wrong way (I kid you not; tractors, trailers, buses etc, not a problem. A wrong way leaf? Deadly!). If it's a quick few smacks on the arse to avoid messing about on the road, then so be it. Horses are instinctive animals and no amount of training will completely hide this (well, maybe Parelli ) and I have always been taught to carry one, just in case. 99.99% my horse is fine, but I would not want to take the chance. They are also useful for threatening dogs that won't go away and clunking cars that are too close 

As a side note, have any of you who do not use whips ever driven? You would be a fool not to carry a whip then, so what do you do?


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## BEUnderTheInfluence (26 April 2011)

I'm sorry but I'm sick and tired of listening to inexperienced whimpering about silly things. The young horse was tired and Mark stated that the striding was all wrong at the previous but the petrol was in the tank to get home, if he hadn't have ridden the fence the way he had the horse could have fallen and picked up a much worse injury! Thats what people seem to not understand, good riding often doesn't look neat, sometimes riders have to ride aggressively but I hardly think you can critique Mark Todd after the beautiful way that horse finished and how well it came out the next day. If you want to complain about 'cruelty', maybe you should look into the real stuff...rescue cases, not high class, super fit, masterfully ridden and maintained competition horses. Get some perspective please.


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## 1stclassalan (27 April 2011)

pastie2 said:



			I have just managed to read your post without falling asleep.. you leave me reaching for the gin bottle!
		
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Well Pastie  if you keep reaching for that gin bottle its no wonder why you keep falling asleep and continually miss the point.




			What in the name of god are you talking about?
		
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Reading and understanding my posts does not require the invocation of nonexistent supernatural beings.




			We have been lucky enough to see horsemanship at its best,
		
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If that is your view  you are welcome to it  but for the sake of argument we first have to establish exactly what is horsemanship.  Eventing developed from Hunter Trials which themselves were developed from cavalry tests designed to emulate the odd adage that a chargers should take you into Hell  and be capable of bringing you back.  So from the very outset there was an element of pushing the horse beyond normal bounds. I would agree wholeheartedly that it most definitely is thrilling entertainment just to watch  let alone be good enough at it to take part  but is it good horsemanship?




			You can not compare the GN to 4* eventing, it is a completely different sport
		
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Ah well, you must have nodded off again there because it wasnt me doing the comparing  I merely added my twopennyworth to someone elses agenda;however; I put it to you that both sports deliberately place obstacles with dangerous potential in the way of horses  many of whom come a cropper at them.

I actually predate eventing but I did a bit of amateur racing and in those sepia days I could have probably shown Mark Todd a thing or two about competitiveness  havent seen him having a whip fight with other jockeys half way round followed by a punch-up at the back of the weighing room! My young life had the dream of seeing owned, trained and ridden in the frame at the Grand National  when it really was an awesome prospect but all of a sudden I got the message of whats it all about? I never did a competitive thing with an animal


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## muffinino (27 April 2011)

So, how does one safely drive a horse without a whip?


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## 1stclassalan (27 April 2011)

muffinino said:



			clunking cars that are too close 

As a side note, have any of you who do not use whips ever driven? You would be a fool not to carry a whip then, so what do you do?
		
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Ah ha! Agree with you there - I've clunked a good few cars with the butt end of a four foot dressage stick and two drivers who thought they'd stop to remonstrate.

However; that's what the sticks are for and not in ANY circumstances to hit an animal. My mare was trained to regard the feel of the stick has an extension of my hand - I was acutely alert when out and never let a danger find me first.


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## Vizslak (27 April 2011)

Crazy crazy place this forum  
And still nobody wants to come ride my horse *sigh* your loss, he's really rather lovely, not that I'm biased or anything! At the failure of that idea I am still waiting for some video of the anti whip brigade in action


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## burtie (27 April 2011)

paulineh said:



			Very interesting post.


The average speed of a horse at badminton is about 22kph for a distance of 4 plus miles.

During an Fei endurance event 1) we are not allowed a whip at all 2) the average speed is well over 20kph for 100 miles and 3) we know how to cool our horses. We also are never allowed spurs.
		
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I understood that 4* was 570 (metres per minute), which is in fact 34.2kph so quite a bit faster than endurance and with some rather large obstacles in the way too. So not really comparable.


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## stacey_lou (27 April 2011)

Ok so what about this 

Mother asks child to go to fetch something for her. Child refuses and answers the mother back being being rude, mother tells child off by giving him a slap on the back of the legs and as a result of this child appologies and does as he was first told. 

Does this then make her a bad mother? 

Child (horse) didnt do as asked and was rude about it mother (rider) told them of with a slap to say dont be so rude and do as your told, Child (horse) did as told and answered the question asked.

Same thing, no?


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## skewbald_again (27 April 2011)

stacey_lou said:



			Ok so what about this 

Mother asks child to go to fetch something for her. Child refuses and answers the mother back being being rude, mother tells child off by giving him a slap on the back of the legs and as a result of this child appologies and does as he was first told. 

Does this then make her a bad mother? 

Child (horse) didnt do as asked and was rude about it mother (rider) told them of with a slap to say dont be so rude and do as your told, Child (horse) did as told and answered the question asked.

Same thing, no?
		
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Just to really put a cat among the pigeons, no, not the same thing.
Children can be talked to and reasoned with, and understand consequences, and should not be smacked. 
However, putting a horse on the naughty step doesn't cut it.
Sorry, which ever way round you go at it, horses are not people and vice versa.


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## Serenity087 (27 April 2011)

I have to admit, I stopped reading at the point the beating of shetlands was advocated purely because they are shetlands (seconded, btw  )

This whole thread, seems to me, to be three of four 12 year old girls fresh out of their Loan-a-pony week for easter who are slagging off some of the GREATEST riders in the WORLD.

I mean, we're not talking your local pot hunter, we're talking OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALISTS!

Who apparently don't know how to ride... huh?

Now, I obviously can't ride anyway, cos I use my stick a lot to back up my leg (I mean, there's 80kg of me versus well over 500kg of horse, if she'd listen to me whispering it would be okay!) but I would never DREAM of teaching grandma to suck eggs.  Or an OLYMPIC 4* EVENT RIDER to ride a cross country course.

I think some of the posters here have delusions of granduer.  I'm glad you enjoyed your loan-a-pony week, but seriously, you're a long way from teaching Mark Todd how to ride.


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## muffinino (27 April 2011)

1stclassalan said:



			Ah ha! Agree with you there - I've clunked a good few cars with the butt end of a four foot dressage stick and two drivers who thought they'd stop to remonstrate.

However; that's what the sticks are for and not in ANY circumstances to hit an animal. My mare was trained to regard the feel of the stick has an extension of my hand - I was acutely alert when out and never let a danger find me first.
		
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Really? So if your horse was being an idiot and for some reason planted in the road, and you thought a swift smack would move them forward out of the way of danger, what would you do?

How would you drive a horse safely without one?


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## tristar (27 April 2011)

i am not in awe of top riders, why should i be?, i know just as many ordinary folk who ride really well and who treat their horses, not as vehicules to fame and fortune but as friends and companions, and who really can say that they are not as good as mark todd if the inclination had been in them to try?

some of the best riders in history have not competed a lot, their motivation was different, it was a voyage of discovery to reach a place where horse and  man met and understood each other in a way most competition riders will never know

eventing and horse racing are noted for  hard  attitudes towards horses, this has been expressed to me by both people involved in racing and by a british eventing accredited trainer.

the point for me really is when does it become too much to ask, how far is it humane to go, when does it become abuse?


its not only the horses that get killed outright on the day, its the horses that are injured, legs, backs, musculature problems, horses prematurely worn out, that are unseen by the public, the toll is higher than would appear at first glance


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## skewbald_again (27 April 2011)

tristar said:



			i am not in awe of top riders, why should i be?, i know just as many ordinary folk who ride really well ....and who really can say that they are not as good as mark todd if the inclination had been in them to try?
		
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Yeh, RIGHT. 
That's the funniest thing I've read all day.
'I'm as good as Mark Todd but can't be arsed to prove it.'
LMFAO


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## tristar (27 April 2011)

its not about being 'as good' as mark todd or anybody else, not everyone needs to prove themselves.

people who ride come from all backgrounds,, many excellent riders never compete, its short sighted indeed to say a person such as todd is the best as he has proved it in competition, competitions are not the be all and end all of equestrianism


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## Maesfen (27 April 2011)

I haven't read half of this so expect this will be like a red rag to abull to some but I actually thought Drivetime deserved what he got, it was a deliberate dirty stop; my only problem with it was she took too long to deliver it.


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## Maesfen (27 April 2011)

tristar said:



			its not about being 'as good' as mark todd or anybody else, not everyone needs to prove themselves.

people who ride come from all backgrounds,, many excellent riders never compete, its short sighted indeed to say a person such as todd is the best as he has proved it in competition, competitions are not the be all and end all of equestrianism
		
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Just remember that those 'just competitions' are the top competitions in their fields, representing his country in not only eventing teams (which involves dressage too of course) but show jumping teams too, both at Olympic level, plus he is a trainer of note of flat racing.  If that's not a complete horseman in all different fields then I'm not sure what is but I do know, you will be very hard pressed to find better whether they compete or not.


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## Ninfapaola (27 April 2011)

A whip is a tool and only as good or as bad as the person using it.  It is a correctional aid and a back up for a natural aid if the response ignored.
I always ride with a whip. It is sometimes used  as a sharp reminder to ask my sometimes lazy ID to pick up his feet then we won't both be rolling about on the floor. Also when I rode on the roads I would carry my dressage whip usually at a 90 degree angle so that I could 'clunk' as many cars as possible that came too near. And should my horse ever swing his hindquarters into the road to back up my leg and to get us back on track in an instant.
I wouldn't even class these as a smack let alone a beating.
Horses are too big and strong and must respect us as much as we respect them for their own safety and well being.


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## Jesstickle (27 April 2011)

Maesfen said:



			I haven't read half of this so expect this will be like a red rag to abull to some but I actually thought Drivetime deserved what he got, it was a deliberate dirty stop; my only problem with it was she took too long to deliver it.
		
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M, I agree whole heartedly and did say so I promise. 

There was absolutely no need for the horse to stop there. He was just being a stroppy so and so and if he were mine he'd have had those smacks too. Maybe a little quicker but probably not as I (not being a very good rider) would have had to peel myself off the horses neck and get my balance back.


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## Flame_ (27 April 2011)

tristar said:



			i am not in awe of top riders, why should i be?, i know just as many ordinary folk who ride really well and who treat their horses, not as vehicules to fame and fortune but as friends and companions, and who really can say that they are not as good as mark todd if the inclination had been in them to try?

some of the best riders in history have not competed a lot, their motivation was different, it was a voyage of discovery to reach a place where horse and  man met and understood each other in a way most competition riders will never know

eventing and horse racing are noted for  hard  attitudes towards horses, this has been expressed to me by both people involved in racing and by a british eventing accredited trainer.
		
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I pretty much agree with this, except I think Mark Todd is well deserving of our awe and he is one of those horsemen who is in another league than most people could ever aspire to, as are, tbf, a few lesser knowns who are busy training young horses, etc. I believe there are many riders out there who could have got to 4* level if opportunities and inclination had sent them that way, but there are few who could ever be among that handful of specially talented riders that includes Mr Todd . I think I'm agreeing with you that horsemanship isn't really measured by what level of eventing you get to. 

As a side point, that horse that did the naughty stop at the water deserved them few smacks.


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## Jennyharvey (27 April 2011)

tristar said:



			i am not in awe of top riders, why should i be?, i know just as many ordinary folk who ride really well and who treat their horses, not as vehicules to fame and fortune but as friends and companions, and who really can say that they are not as good as mark todd if the inclination had been in them to try?

some of the best riders in history have not competed a lot, their motivation was different, it was a voyage of discovery to reach a place where horse and  man met and understood each other in a way most competition riders will never know

eventing and horse racing are noted for  hard  attitudes towards horses, this has been expressed to me by both people involved in racing and by a british eventing accredited trainer.

the point for me really is when does it become too much to ask, how far is it humane to go, when does it become abuse?


its not only the horses that get killed outright on the day, its the horses that are injured, legs, backs, musculature problems, horses prematurely worn out, that are unseen by the public, the toll is higher than would appear at first glance
		
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Totally agree.  I dont look up to these riders who are at the top of their game.  I dont have any ambition to be as successful as any of them.  

I would rather aspire to be like someone who has no interest in competing, who rides because of their love for horses, not of glory.  To me, someone who wants success can quite often put the desire for success before the horse.  Not in that they are cruel to the horse, but maybe they are more likely to use methods that i dont agree with.  Like the use of gagdets, big bits, spurs, draw reins etc.  

When i worked in OZ, i worked for a leading lady rider.  I admit, she was a brilliant rider, and got really good results with her horses.  She wasnt leading rider for nothing!
The main thing i didnt like about her was how she trained the horses, the bits she used, which included a twisted wire snaffle on a 5 year old.  She also had a 4 year old jumping 1m20.  Which to me is too big.  
When she was finished riding, some of the horses looked soo dead, i felt so bad for them.  
Im sure not all competitors are like this, but im sure there are a lot of them that will treat the horse like a machine to win, rather than an animal.  
And maybe im just soft, but i do feel that if we want to win, we will quite often treat the horse like a winning machine, that gets punished for our mistakes, which i just cant agree with.  
Also, who uses the most gadgets to train a horse?  Not a happy hacker who just want to enjoy their horse's company, but those who have more to loose if their horse doesnt perform the best.  Those who want to win, sometimes at any cost.  

Sorry if i was rambling


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## skewbald_again (27 April 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			She also had a 4 year old jumping 1m20.  Which to me is too big.
		
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Not unusual for a talented, top bred horse with a pro rider.



			When she was finished riding, some of the horses looked soo dead, i felt so bad for them.
		
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Hmm. Isn't that where you come in? I mean, yes, after a hard session, sports horses are hot and tired. Hence the groom hops on, cools them down, washes them off, etc. That was always my job, anyway.




			Im sure not all competitors are like this, but im sure there are a lot of them that will treat the horse like a machine to win, rather than an animal.
		
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There may be, but I've not met lots. They would end up with a lot of broken down horses.




			Also, who uses the most gadgets to train a horse?  Not a happy hacker who just want to enjoy their horse's company, but those who have more to loose if their horse doesnt perform the best.
		
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Actually, I think I would dispute that. Commensurate to the job in hand, I think some happy hackers use the biggest amount of unnecessary clobber I've ever seen.


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## aimsymc (27 April 2011)

the h&h had a thing a few years ago called stable stereotypes, does anyone remember "All the gear no idea"? Thats the happy hackers with gadgets!


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## BSJAlove (27 April 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			I would rather aspire to be like someone who has no interest in competing, who rides because of their love for horses, not of glory.  To me, someone who wants success can quite often put the desire for success before the horse.  Not in that they are cruel to the horse, but maybe they are more likely to use methods that i dont agree with.  Like the use of gagdets, big bits, spurs, draw reins etc.
		
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people at the top of their game, have enough money (or contacts) to have their horses in the best care. this means regular back checks, dentist, and all the latest things. a horse wont perform to that level in pain. a horse wont perform at that level in unsuitable tack. they perform at that level because the horses are fit, healthy and happy. if they wernt happy in the tack, there would be problems.


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## tristar (27 April 2011)

what was the sterotype for rolkur, draw reins, crank nosebands, sharp spurs, whacking horses over fences, jumping youngsters over 5 ft fences, racing 2 year olds ?????


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## Amaranta (27 April 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			Totally agree.  I dont look up to these riders who are at the top of their game.  I dont have any ambition to be as successful as any of them.  

I would rather aspire to be like someone who has no interest in competing, who rides because of their love for horses, not of glory.  To me, someone who wants success can quite often put the desire for success before the horse.  Not in that they are cruel to the horse, but maybe they are more likely to use methods that i dont agree with.  Like the use of gagdets, big bits, spurs, draw reins etc.  

When i worked in OZ, i worked for a leading lady rider.  I admit, she was a brilliant rider, and got really good results with her horses.  She wasnt leading rider for nothing!
The main thing i didnt like about her was how she trained the horses, the bits she used, which included a twisted wire snaffle on a 5 year old.  She also had a 4 year old jumping 1m20.  Which to me is too big.  
When she was finished riding, some of the horses looked soo dead, i felt so bad for them.  
Im sure not all competitors are like this, but im sure there are a lot of them that will treat the horse like a machine to win, rather than an animal.  
And maybe im just soft, but i do feel that if we want to win, we will quite often treat the horse like a winning machine, that gets punished for our mistakes, which i just cant agree with.  
Also, who uses the most gadgets to train a horse?  Not a happy hacker who just want to enjoy their horse's company, but those who have more to loose if their horse doesnt perform the best.  Those who want to win, sometimes at any cost.  

Sorry if i was rambling
		
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So, you are saying that all horsepeople at the top of their game do not care for their horses in the same way you do, that you are somehow better than them in your mind?  Gosh very superior are you not?

For the record, I have seen several happy hackers who just HAVE to have the latest gadget as they think it makes them look coooooool, regardless of the fact that they do not have the first clue how to use said gadget anyway.  Pelhams and gags on one rein spring to mind immediately but I could go on!  I remember one girl at my last yard who had to have boots all round, a standing martingale, a pelham and more dead sheep on her horse than a welsh mountain, she would brag that her horse was sooooo naughty when the poor thing could hardy move for the gadgets strapping him down.

Who the hell are you to judge competitive riders? Whilst I am not in the top echelons of the competition world, I do compete BD (at AM and hoping to go higher) in a snaffle - with no flash.


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## lannerch (27 April 2011)

Flame_ said:



			As a side point, that horse that did the naughty stop at the water deserved them few smacks.
		
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Asuming we are talking about emily here, he did deserve the smacks but unfortunatly imo was given them too late and when he was facing the other way, if he had been smacked immediatly then it would have been correct.

Mark todd rode a brilliant round and thoroughly deserved the win. I was right by the final element of the quarry when he went passed and he rode it very well, the horse needed a reminder, it needed to pick up or it would have met the jump completely wrong!

Well done mark


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## Mrs B (27 April 2011)

I have come to the conclusion that trying to make JH, O2Y et al see sense is a bit like trying to argue with the Black Knight in Monty Python's sketch in the 'Holy Grail' film:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

ie - pointless due to extreme denial and rampant stupidity.


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## duggan (27 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			Or all the little thug's whipping might not have contributed to the horse ending up in such a state?
		
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So one persons' opinions and arguments cannot be given credability once again because of their decision to call one of the top jockeys a 'little thug'.

We all have our opinions and we are entitled to them. That makes the world go round. But to call someone a 'thug' just makes me sigh and ignore their opinion.

This whole thread is full of opinions, we all feel ours is the best one. We all feel some of the posts are silly/pathetic/wrong. It's our right to have an opinion. But name calling, slander and rude comments like the one above just mean you've lost.
I've been known to use a whip two or three times when on a hack. So I must be a cruel rider and I should be getting off and leading my horse past the dragon he's decided is waiting for him....
As said above, the whip is an aid, and if used as such is invaluable in getting trust,performance and education into a beastie. As is your voice, legs and seat. I see far more whip abuse at the local shows than on tv in any discipline.


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## Mrs B (27 April 2011)

_Posted by tristar  
i am not in awe of top riders, why should i be?, i know just as many ordinary folk who ride really well and who treat their horses, not as vehicules to fame and fortune but as friends and companions, and who really can say that they are not as good as mark todd if the inclination had been in them to try?_

This has to be one of the most idiotic posts I have ever read... (even leaving aside the typos)


*shoots self, much to the delight of the above poster*


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## FairyCakes (27 April 2011)

Ah this thread has made me realise I have been doing it totally wrong, and got to Pre Novice aged 14 by fluke.
Next time the young one misbehaves and has a party I shall just sit there shouting "naughty naughty if you don't stop I will put you in the naughty corner". 
Thanks for enlightening me!


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## skewbald_again (27 April 2011)

Mrs B said:



			This has to be one of the most idiotic posts I have ever read... (even leaving aside the typos)


*shoots self, much to the delight of the above poster* 

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I, for example, feel no need to be impressed by Mozart. Despite the fact that I struggle to get through 'Merrily We Roll Along' on the descant recorder, and that with a break to pick my nose, obviously if I wanted to, I could compose, like, The Magic Flute or something, innit? 

I don't see why we should all go round standing in awe of genius when it's quite obvious that really quite a lot of us would be just as brilliant if we could be bovvered.


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## Jennyharvey (27 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			Not unusual for a talented, top bred horse with a pro rider.


Hmm. Isn't that where you come in? I mean, yes, after a hard session, sports horses are hot and tired. Hence the groom hops on, cools them down, washes them off, etc. That was always my job, anyway.



There may be, but I've not met lots. They would end up with a lot of broken down horses.



Actually, I think I would dispute that. Commensurate to the job in hand, I think some happy hackers use the biggest amount of unnecessary clobber I've ever seen. 

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Well, maybe im the only one who thinks jumping a 4 year old 1m20 is unfair.  Fair enough.  

and no, im not any better than these top riders, ive never said that, last time i evented was when i was about 12! but yes, i do treat my horses differently.  Maybe better, maybe worse, thats up to other people to decide themselves.  
I think people should by now realise that i do have a differing opinion on a lot of things, i think im perfectly intitled to my opinion.  If you dont agree, fine.  It doesnt bother me.  

Im not gonna be someone who follows trends, and does the same thing as everyone else.  Im not here to make friends, but to discuss things, agree, disagree, learn.  

So maybe people would stop acting like what i say is a personal insult to them and accept that i dont agree.


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## skewbald_again (27 April 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			Well, maybe im the only one who thinks jumping a 4 year old 1m20 is unfair.  Fair enough.  

and no, im not any better than these top riders, ive never said that, last time i evented was when i was about 12! but yes, i do treat my horses differently.  Maybe better, maybe worse, thats up to other people to decide themselves.  
I think people should by now realise that i do have a differing opinion on a lot of things, i think im perfectly intitled to my opinion.  If you dont agree, fine.  It doesnt bother me.  

Im not gonna be someone who follows trends, and does the same thing as everyone else.  Im not here to make friends, but to discuss things, agree, disagree, learn.  

So maybe people would stop acting like what i say is a personal insult to them and accept that i dont agree.
		
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Excuse me, but I did not act as if anything was a personal insult, I spent a good deal of time answering your post politely in segments.

I didn't imply that you thought you were better than anyone. I _did_ think it a strange thing for a groom to say (I assume you were grooming?) that the poor horse looked knackered when the rider had done with it, as in general, they do - they have a fairly intense session, but most athletes look pretty bushed after the aerobic/burn part of their schedule. As the groom (or in my jobs, anyway) you take over from there, walk the horse off, cool down, wash etc as usual - and within half an hour they're chilled, happy and in their pjs. So I queried it. Politely.

I'm sure you're not the only one to think 1.20 is big for a four year old, but I do think it depends - it depends on a lot of things like breeding, early life, nutrition, history - and trainer/jockey.  I think I am probably not the only one to think it not unusual, in a pro training situation.

I also said, equally politely, that I would dispute your contention about gadgets and pros/hackers.

In my book, that is discussion.


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## Flame_ (27 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			I don't see why we should all go round standing in awe of genius when it's quite obvious that really quite a lot of us would be just as brilliant if we could be bovvered.
		
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Do you really think top level eventing is genius  or are you just talking about Mark Todd? That's like saying all premiership footballers are geniuses because they're at the top level of their sport, and I'm just not buying it I'm afraid. I'm not saying what they do is a piece of p!ss or i could do it, but genius? Come on.


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## skewbald_again (27 April 2011)

Flame_ said:



			Do you really think top level eventing is genius  or are you just talking about Mark Todd? That's like saying all premiership footballers are geniuses because they're at the top level of their sport, and I'm just not buying it I'm afraid. I'm not saying what they do is a piece of p!ss or i could do it, but genius? Come on. 

Click to expand...

I'd call Mark Todd a genius, yes. 
I don't know anything about football, so can't comment.


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## OldGit (27 April 2011)

jesstickle said:



			M, I agree whole heartedly and did say so I promise. 

There was absolutely no need for the horse to stop there. He was just being a stroppy so and so and if he were mine he'd have had those smacks too. Maybe a little quicker but probably not as I (not being a very good rider) would have had to peel myself off the horses neck and get my balance back.
		
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I think that the fact that there was a delay shows absolutely that this was not delivered in temper. The rider quickly assessed what had happened, where she was going to go/do, she then woke the horse up to ensure it was in front of the leg (the 3 smacks is not for the stop but to get the horse's attention back). Similarly if you feel the horse is not listening/falling behind the leg when coming into a ****ing big fence, only an idiot would sit there hoping the horse would remember all the treats you've given in the past!!!!


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## Jennyharvey (27 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			Excuse me, but I did not act as if anything was a personal insult, I spent a good deal of time answering your post politely in segments.

I didn't imply that you thought you were better than anyone. I _did_ think it a strange thing for a groom to say (I assume you were grooming?) that the poor horse looked knackered when the rider had done with it, as in general, they do - they have a fairly intense session, but most athletes look pretty bushed after the aerobic/burn part of their schedule. As the groom (or in my jobs, anyway) you take over from there, walk the horse off, cool down, wash etc as usual - and within half an hour they're chilled, happy and in their pjs. So I queried it. Politely.

I'm sure you're not the only one to think 1.20 is big for a four year old, but I do think it depends - it depends on a lot of things like breeding, early life, nutrition, history - and trainer/jockey.  I think I am probably not the only one to think it not unusual, in a pro training situation.

I also said, equally politely, that I would dispute your contention about gadgets and pros/hackers.

In my book, that is discussion.
		
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Sorry, i wasnt really directing that toward you.  Just in general.  
The thing is, a lot of people here assume that me, and some others who disagree with the majority, are somewhat clueless about horses.  Just because we dont compete to a high standard, that our opinions are irrelevent.  Or at least thats how i feel.  Ive been called a few names, not on this thread, because i disagree with others.  
Ive spent my life with horses, doing bhs exams, competing.  I may not be as knowlegeble as some, but i dont appreciate being called names, just because i dont agree with others views.  
Sorry its not really on topic, but anyway.  

In regards to the horse being exhausted after exercise, and jumping a youngster big fences, those are the sorts of things i dont like.  Thats why i dont like competing, because horses are pushed to the extremes, go through sometimes fairly stressful training programmes, have shortcuts taken in their training, such as stronger bits and draw reins.  
A lot of people compare a horse as an athlete, same as people.  Yes and no.  People are willing participants, they WANT to compete, horses are not willing.  In fairness most dont mind, but there is just so much i cant agree with in terms of some training methods used by a lot of riders, especially comepetitors.


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## skewbald_again (27 April 2011)

Frankly, I think it's a trade off. It's not one they can choose, it's one they just get. The best horse I looked after slept in a stable underneath my bed. If he had a problem, I got up, simple as.  All the others were as indulged, but for their bedroom 
Top nutrition, back care, dental care, tack, rugs, feed, veterinary attention, training ... life of riley. Not the point of course if they secretly wanted to be a folk singer, but we can't help that.
Equally some horses are out in all weathers, covered in mud, and if they're lucky, otherwise healthy. If they're not, riddled with worms, under or over fed, misunderstood, uncomfortable and cold. We can't know if they'd rather be a rockstar.
Some get lucky, they get the middle ground, and it's the exact place they fit.
I know when I was working, my boys would not have known what to do with mud, cold, and untrained riders. They were happy enough. They loved the crowds, and they loved their slaves. 
We can't overthink it. It just is. 
If we're going to act on anything, it must be palpable cruelty, like live export.


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## Hullabaloo (28 April 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			Im not gonna be someone who follows trends, and does the same thing as everyone else.  Im not here to make friends, but to discuss things, agree, disagree, learn.
		
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Not even when it comes to grammar and punctuation!



Jennyharvey said:



			A lot of people compare a horse as an athlete, same as people.  Yes and no.  People are willing participants, they WANT to compete, horses are not willing.
		
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Tosh!  A good horse loves his work.  Did you see Opposition Buzz go round?  Ears pricked, loving every minute.  An unwilling horse is not going to jump those fences even with Mark Todd on board (and I agree with Skewbald_Again, the man is a bloody genius!).

Even my all-rounder loves his job and enjoys nothing more than going to a party and popping round a cross country course.


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## amandap (28 April 2011)

As it seems I've already made a fool of myself. 
I'm interested in the title of this thread... "*Inconsiderate* use of the whip... "

I personally can't think of one example of using a whip to hit and hurt that is erm... considerate!  Perhaps this is why I and a few others see it differently. 

I hit my child because I'm a 'considerate' person. I hit my dog because I'm a 'considerate' person, I hit my horse...


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## skewbald_again (28 April 2011)

I hit the back button on my browser because I would like to stay sane ...


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## amandap (28 April 2011)

He he, Just block me, simples.


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## skewbald_again (28 April 2011)

amandap said:



			He he, Just block me, simples. 

Click to expand...

There's no point, really - you're not engaging in the discussion, you're just floating around in your own little world.

The nature of genius, the horse's attitude to what we call work, the use of extraneous bits of kit on competition horses/hacks ... take your pick.

Or just drift in and start making totally random comments about the thread title after about a gazillion posts. What ever.


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## viewfromahill (28 April 2011)

Considerate or inconsiderate are horses/ponies either in the field?  NO they kick or bite until they get respect they certainly do more and can do more harm than most of us on here will EVER do!!!!  I personally would take more issue with a horse jumping a jump banging its stifle its clearly lame and then is asked to jump again before being pulled up - no idea who this was!!


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## Hullabaloo (28 April 2011)

amandap said:



			As it seems I've already made a fool of myself. 
I'm interested in the title of this thread... "*Inconsiderate* use of the whip... "

I personally can't think of one example of using a whip to hit and hurt that is erm... considerate!  Perhaps this is why I and a few others see it differently. 

I hit my child because I'm a 'considerate' person. I hit my dog because I'm a 'considerate' person, I hit my horse...   

Click to expand...

I don't get the comparision between hitting a horse and hitting a child.  
My horse weight 550kg and wears 4 metal shoes at the end of his powerful legs.  He has a small brain and limited ability to reason.  He lives in the moment and is unaware of consequences of his actions.  If he does or tries to do something which I deem to be dangerous I will hit him to tell him off.  
If anyone has a child who matches this description they have my sympathy!


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## amandap (28 April 2011)

viewfromahill said:



			Considerate or inconsiderate are horses/ponies either in the field?  NO they kick or bite until they get respect they certainly do more and can do more harm than most of us on here will EVER do!!!!  I personally would take more issue with a horse jumping a jump banging its stifle its clearly lame and then is asked to jump again before being pulled up - no idea who this was!!
		
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 It's not ok for my horses to bite or kick me. I like to use my limited knowledge of how horses communicate to help me but I don't think I'm a horse and I'm 100% certain my horses know I'm not a horse. I spend a lot of time watching my horses interacting and sometimes I can see what I think is or has led up to an altercation but much of it is 'horse talk' and behaviour i can't even register or understand so for me the fact that they might bite or kick _each other_ is not relevant to my relationship and communication with them.
I don't 'respect' any human who has hit me I can tell you, and if a horse were to bite me, I'd be very wary of it in future...


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## amandap (28 April 2011)

Hullabaloo said:



			I don't get the comparision between hitting a horse and hitting a child.  
My horse weight 550kg and wears 4 metal shoes at the end of his powerful legs.  He has a small brain and limited ability to reason.  He lives in the moment and is unaware of consequences of his actions.  If he does or tries to do something which I deem to be dangerous I will hit him to tell him off.  
If anyone has a child who matches this description they have my sympathy!
		
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If a horse does lack the 'ability to reason' then all the more reason to try and find a way to teach that he understands rather than hit him.  Surely he will have no idea why he is being hit if he 'can't reason' and has a 'small brain'.

Recently we were all horrified by the footage of Emily the elephant being hit. Last time I looked elephants were a great deal bigger and stronger than horses. 

You'll all be pleased to know I'm away for the day so have a good one.


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## eahotson (28 April 2011)

I think in general this is more important than Mark Todd right or wrong.Society is changing.People are no longer automatically deferential.If they see something they do not like, right or wrong they will say so.More importantly they will no longer spend money on tickets, in trade stands etc.Without this there will gradually be no advertizers, sponsors or owners and Badminton, amongst others, will be dead on the ground.Mary King amongst others understands this, its why she talks to spectators, signs autographs etc. Experienced riders, because they are human, can become complacent and neglect key areasof training, fittening etc.In defense of the riders, especially those right at the top,pressure on them is great.If they fail to perform they will gradually loose the owners sponsors etc. that they rely on to keep going so this might make them push a bit harder sometimes than perhaps they really like.If I was managing Badminton I would listen to all sides (including the riders) make criticisms where I felt they were justified and try and explain to grass roots riders and spectators the rationale behind some of the riders decisions on the day.We are going through a huge financial crisis and there are many pressures on peoples pockets.They may decide next year that Badminton is one they could do without.


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## skewbald_again (28 April 2011)

Indeed, it was positively deserted.


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## Jennyharvey (28 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			There's no point, really - you're not engaging in the discussion, you're just floating around in your own little world.

The nature of genius, the horse's attitude to what we call work, the use of extraneous bits of kit on competition horses/hacks ... take your pick.

Or just drift in and start making totally random comments about the thread title after about a gazillion posts. What ever. 

Click to expand...

This is exactly what I mean.  Just because we dont agree with you, doesnt mean that we are 'floating around in our own little world'.  

We have differing opinions, thats all.  It doesnt mean we are clueless.  Its crazy that everyone here who uses bits, spurs, and other gadgets are somehow right, and someone who prefers not to use these things, or disagree's with these things, is totally clueless or in a world of their own.


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## Jennyharvey (28 April 2011)

Hullabaloo said:



			Not even when it comes to grammar and punctuation!



Tosh!  A good horse loves his work.  Did you see Opposition Buzz go round?  Ears pricked, loving every minute.  An unwilling horse is not going to jump those fences even with Mark Todd on board (and I agree with Skewbald_Again, the man is a bloody genius!).

Even my all-rounder loves his job and enjoys nothing more than going to a party and popping round a cross country course.
		
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Lol, when i see a horse go round badminton without a rider, then i will believe he enjoys it.  At the end of the day, we are MAKING the horse do it, regardless if a horse ENJOYS it.  Thats the diference between a human competing, who is willing, and its their decision to do it, compared to a horse, who is ultimately, our slave, doing our bidding, whether it be pulling a plough or competing.


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## amandap (28 April 2011)

Just before I go I have to say that skewbald_again is actually quoting something I said about myself.


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## skewbald_again (28 April 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			This is exactly what I mean.  Just because we dont agree with you, doesnt mean that we are 'floating around in our own little world'.  

We have differing opinions, thats all.  It doesnt mean we are clueless.  Its crazy that everyone here who uses bits, spurs, and other gadgets are somehow right, and someone who prefers not to use these things, or disagree's with these things, is totally clueless or in a world of their own.
		
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See, Jennyharvey, you keep on doing this to me.

I didn't say YOU were floating around. YOU entered into the discussion, I took your post apart and discussed every last bit of it. YOU had something to say. I didn't agree with most of it, but it warranted discussion.

I am not 'everyone on here' and you are not 'we that disagree' we are each individuals, and we have varying opinions, there are not just two.


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## Hullabaloo (28 April 2011)

amandap said:



			If a horse does lack the 'ability to reason' then all the more reason to try and find a way to teach that he understands rather than hit him.  Surely he will have no idea why he is being hit if he 'can't reason' and has a 'small brain'.
		
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In most situations I agree.  But when you are in a situation where you or the horse is at risk, you don't have time to reason with them.  Mark Todd has trained this horse to 4* level so has obviously used effective methods to teach the horse his job.  In the situation he was in at the quarry, a couple of slaps to say come on, pick your feet up, was the safest and most effective way of getting to the other side of the fence safely.  I'm sure had the horse not responded, he would have pulled up.    

By the way, it is a biological fact that a horse has a small brain so I'm not sure why you put it in inverted commas.


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## Hullabaloo (28 April 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			Lol, when i see a horse go round badminton without a rider, then i will believe he enjoys it.  At the end of the day, we are MAKING the horse do it, regardless if a horse ENJOYS it.  Thats the diference between a human competing, who is willing, and its their decision to do it, compared to a horse, who is ultimately, our slave, doing our bidding, whether it be pulling a plough or competing.
		
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Try MAKING a horse do anything - we ASK them to do these things for us.  Horses who enjoy their work respond with enthusiasm.  Horses who don't aren't likely to be seen at this level. 

I find your idea of a horse being a slave a very odd one, and quite disrespectful to the ancesters of people who were slaves.  I assume from this that you don't ride?


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## eahotson (28 April 2011)

No Skewbald Badminton is not YET diserted.


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## muffinino (28 April 2011)

I don't think anybody has said that they are deferential towards Mark Todd as such. I said that I would trust him over almost anyone to make the correct decision regarding the correct riding of a horse and IMO, he did that at The Quarry. If he did something I did not like, I would say so.

With regards to making the horse our slave,do you really think so? Have you ever sat on a good jumping horse or driven a scurry vehicle? I can assure you that the majority of these animals love their job and you'd be hard pressed to stop them doing it once they've locked on! There were a few horses at Badminton that point blank refused to continue, which in my mind shows that in general you cannot force them to do it if they don't want to. There may be exceptions but I think in general this is true.

Nobody has yet to tell me how to drive safely without the use of a whip...


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## georgiegirl (28 April 2011)

racing, eventing, showjumping etc etc in fact ANY horse sport you will not make  600kg of animal do something it doesnt 100% want to do, whip or no whip.

Horses are big dangerous animals and sometimes a well timed appropriate smack is all that is needed to ensure safety for both horse and rider.

and as for saying you would never respect anyone that smacks you?! well what a load of rubbish. If i was naughty as a child and it was warranted, I did get a smack - and you know the amazing thing? it worked! and i hold the upmost respect for my mother....

Horses are like children they learn on the basis of reward and punishment. even from the most simplest of aids - you press your legs on the horses side, they go forwards, the pressing stops. simples!

How anyone can even start to questions the decisions made by mark todd is beyond me.


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## Ranyhyn (28 April 2011)

Surely the most natural way to communicate with a horse is punishment and praise.

When I watch horses in a herd, they will nip and kick at their field fellows who step out of line and be affectionate ad gentle to those whom they like.

Normally this punishment would be conveyed by tone of voice but at that level of comp with all that accompanying noise, something a little more abrupt is needed, which works in the form of a nice flat whacker, which isn't a skinny sharp switch but a fat flat slappy thing which creates a great noise and just makes the horse realise it has done something wrong.  If it is applied at the right time, it'll make the horse realise exactly what its done wrong.
I believe the water-horse deserved a whack, he didn't get to that level by being genuinely afraid of water - he's obviously done it a zillion times and the rider knew this.
Her timing was off, but hey ho, no-one is perfect.  I'm sure if she watches it back she'll rectify that decision for next time.


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## skewbald_again (28 April 2011)

muffinino said:



			Nobody has yet to tell me how to drive safely without the use of a whip...

Click to expand...

http://www.childrenstoysandgifts.co.uk/images/images250/horse-princess.jpg


Can't resist a challenge, me.


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## Allover (28 April 2011)

georgiegirl said:



			racing, eventing, showjumping etc etc in fact ANY horse sport you will not make  600kg of animal do something it doesnt 100% want to do, whip or no whip.

.
		
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In fact people use methods all the time where they can and do make horses do things that they dont want to do. Whether it be through nicely nicely or beating the crap out of it. 

Nicely nicely approach and understanding will ultimately lead to a horse wanting to do whatever is asked and reaches its potential.

Beating the crap out of it will lead it to do it through fear and the horse will NEVER perform to its potential because of it. 

I am in no way suggesting that Mark Todd beat the horse and as someone has said before i would trust his judgement over most others in the horse world when it comes to giving the horse "one up" to remind it to keep focused on the job


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## georgiegirl (28 April 2011)

you misunderstand me...... I am of the same opinion as you! nicely nicely doesnt always work and neither do whips - and no, nicely nicely doesnt always lead to sucess in the end, same with as you say 'beating the crap' out of a horse - although there is a world of difference in a 'go forward' instruction given from a whip to 'beating the crap' out of a horse - that is never acceptable but its a completely different thing from riders who will at times use a stick to good effect  - i just think it stinks that people like these are getting tarred with the same label.


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## muffinino (28 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



http://www.childrenstoysandgifts.co.uk/images/images250/horse-princess.jpg


Can't resist a challenge, me.
		
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OMG I want! Do you think they make them big enough for adults? I'm only 5'1'' so I'm sure I could fit in one


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## tristar (28 April 2011)

small brains, limited ability to think, lacks ability to reason, lives for the moment?,  this is not my evaluation or experience  of horses, indeed i find horses  highly intelligent, quick to learn, super quick to respond, willing to please, delighting and taking pride in their work, and most definately they have reasoning power.   My horse is  thick, it does'nt want to work, it won't go forward, it stops  blah blah blah.... sick of hearing it, blame the horse, when in reality they need to take a good hard look at themselves first, of course that will only be productive if you don't have a small brain, limited ability to think, are lacking ability to res...... 

if you have to hit the horse to make it do it right, or to make it happen at all  there is an issue, this is what we are debating, if you have to whack it half way through a complex because you and the horse might break your necks, should the horse be doing it at all?, these riders make the choice to place themselves and their horses in this position, it puts them in another place from people who train and ride with  kindness and would never risk their horses necks, they see the horse from a completely different perspective.


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## Ranyhyn (28 April 2011)

Every owner risks their horses necks just by owning one and letting it out in a field.


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## Allover (28 April 2011)

Or riding it down the road, or giving it medication, or putting it in a stable, or putting it in a field, or taking it to a show.

The list goes on and on, and what is classed as "riding with kindness" because i am sure what one person will class as kind another will class as something completely different.


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## charlie76 (28 April 2011)

For the uneducated amongst us the phrase is 'backing up the leg with the whip' and not 'whipping the horse'!

If there is anyone here that can make a horse go perfectly without ever the use of an artifical aid then please feel free to have a chat to my horses!


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## Over2You (28 April 2011)

muffinino said:



			Nobody has yet to tell me how to drive safely without the use of a whip...

Click to expand...

I found not one, not two, but four examples of horses and ponies being driven safely without a whip! Check this out. Pay attention to the Fjord at about 01.50. *NO WHIP*!!  Then again with the grey Welshie at around 02.40. Also at 4.12 with the two black Percherons.  Take a look at this too. Perhaps you could contact the latter for some tips. She was trained to use vocal commands instead of a whip. It should also be noted that I found those videos on the first search results page. There are probably lots more to be found.


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## muffinino (28 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			I found not one, not two, but four examples of horses and ponies being driven safely without a whip! Check this out. Pay attention to the Fjord at about 01.50. *NO WHIP*!!  Then again with the grey Welshie at around 02.40. Also at 4.12 with the two black Percherons.  Take a look at this too. Perhaps you could contact the latter for some tips. She was trained to use vocal commands instead of a whip. It should also be noted that I found those videos on the first search results page. There are probably lots more to be found.
		
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I can't watch the vidoes from this computer, I'm afraid 

But I still don't think that they can be driving safely if they don't have a whip. I cannot believe anybody would be so stupid as to drive without at least the back up of a one, it is very dangerous to do so. I was taught by one of the UK's top drivers, a man who has won titles at pretty much every county show, Hickstead and HOYS, and who also judges at the highest level, and he would flay me alive for driving without a whip or gloves. You are a fool to drive without either. You also need one anyway to lightly touch the horse with, to instruct it, as it is an extention of your arm and takes the place of your leg. It is not always used for beatings! 
My ponies were very responsive to voice commands and most drives would not need one to back up those commands, but sometimes you would still need a whip if their instincts took over. Unless of course you've trained the animal to have no instinct whatsoever  Sometimes, for their own safety, you need a whip whilst driving to back up the voice command as nothing will over-ride instinct eg. fear or sheer stubborness. I would never and shall never think that it is safe to drive without a whip.


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## Over2You (28 April 2011)

duggan said:



			So one persons' opinions and arguments cannot be given credability once again because of their decision to call one of the top jockeys a 'little thug'.

We all have our opinions and we are entitled to them. That makes the world go round. But to call someone a 'thug' just makes me sigh and ignore their opinion.
		
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So, what exactly was he then for relentlessly whipping the horse over the finishing line? A saint or a caring sympathetic rider? He was neither which is why he incurred a well deserved ban. I am sorry, but he *WAS* a thug for what he did to that horse. Ballabriggs might not have been visibly marked, but he could easily have had broken blood vessels and tissue damage underneath his skin. It would not be surprising if he had considering the beating he got.  It should also be noted that Maguire had been handed two suspensions in February of this year. One for marking a horse and the other for excessive use of the whip. However, given the fact that racing so often makes a mockery of its rules, the bans were overturned. He also appealed against a ten-day ban this month for going the wrong way. He was successful. Out of interest, why is it that a jockey will be handed a ten-day ban for going the wrong way, but will only get five for marking a horse?


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## teagreen (28 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			So, what exactly was he then for relentlessly whipping the horse over the finishing line? A saint or a caring sympathetic rider? He was neither which is why he incurred a well deserved ban. I am sorry, but he *WAS* a thug for what he did to that horse. Ballabriggs might not have been visibly marked, but he could easily have had broken blood vessels and tissue damage underneath his skin. It would not be surprising if he had considering the beating he got.  It should also be noted that Maguire had been handed two suspensions in February of this year. One for marking a horse and the other for excessive use of the whip. However, given the fact that racing so often makes a mockery of its rules, the bans were overturned. He also appealed against a ten-day ban this month for going the wrong way. He was successful. Out of interest, why is it that a jockey will be handed a ten-day ban for going the wrong way, but will only get five for marking a horse?
		
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But he DIDN'T have broken blood vessels or tissue damage. I've been racing quite a bit recently and have been particularly observant of how the horses are finishing (each time think of you, O2Y!). I have not been able to see where the horses have been hit at any of the meetings I have been at. They do not appear hurt or distressed in any way. The other day I had friends at a point to point, and I went to see them afterwards. I ran my hands over the horses quarters and felt nothing at all, nor did the horse mind, he was merrily picking grass at the end of a leadrope. 

Jockeys may have their whips, but event riders have their legs (complete with spurs) and whips. So I'm surprised you like eventing at all, Over2You, because while jockeys can't kick their horses in the sides to make them go faster, eventers can. They can also use bits that aren't snaffles. 

And Jason got his 10 day ban because we went the wrong way to avoid a stricken jockey. What a monster.


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## Jennyharvey (28 April 2011)

Kitsune said:



			Surely the most natural way to communicate with a horse is punishment and praise.

When I watch horses in a herd, they will nip and kick at their field fellows who step out of line and be affectionate ad gentle to those whom they like.

Normally this punishment would be conveyed by tone of voice but at that level of comp with all that accompanying noise, something a little more abrupt is needed, which works in the form of a nice flat whacker, which isn't a skinny sharp switch but a fat flat slappy thing which creates a great noise and just makes the horse realise it has done something wrong.  If it is applied at the right time, it'll make the horse realise exactly what its done wrong.
I believe the water-horse deserved a whack, he didn't get to that level by being genuinely afraid of water - he's obviously done it a zillion times and the rider knew this.
Her timing was off, but hey ho, no-one is perfect.  I'm sure if she watches it back she'll rectify that decision for next time.
		
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I normally dont think of it as punishment, how we train horses.  Its more to do with pressure and release.  Or negative reinforcement.  We apply pressure to a horse, ie negative reinforcement, (which isnt the same as punishment) and then we reward the horse by removing the pressure.  Its how we ask with our legs or reins.  To me punishment is to punish a horse for doing something wrong.  Like if a horse nips, a smack on the nose would be a punishment.  
I rarely punish a horse.  I like to ignore a mistake and praise when the horse gets it right, but in the situation where a horse could hurt me, or in self defence, i dont have a problem using punishment.  I just do see it as a tool in training.  Only for reprimands.


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## Jennyharvey (28 April 2011)

I think that yes, the horse does have a small brain compared to us.  But i think too many people take for granted just how intelligent they really are.  
They may learn differently, but the fact that we can teach a horse to do the things we do with them, surely this is evidence of the horse's intelligence, small brain regardless.


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## blueneonrainbow (28 April 2011)

I honestly cannot see the problem with using a whip at the correct time and place to perk up the horse and make it listen to you - perhaps because the only horses I have available to me are riding school horses, who are not dead to the leg but are also worked hard so are perhaps not as fresh as my own horse would be who is worked maybe once a day. A quick tap behind the leg to back up my leg aids is a godsend at times and gets the horse working correctly - and is especially useful just before a jump if the horse backs off. I didnt see Mark Todds round but did see some others who appeared to use their whips for punishment rather than encouragement but I didnt see anything that seemed cruel - some I thought should have pulled up rather than continuing such as Ingrid Klimke, whose horse slid badly on two occasions and she then fell, as did every other rider who I thought should have pulled up. I guess the chance of finishing keeps them going on when its apparent the horse is having some sort of difficulty. I was also mightily unimpressed with Karen O Connor I think it was.

I did think this was an incredibly honest horse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_YSNQ5Utfc


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## Allover (28 April 2011)

Horses may have a small brain but us humans only use about 10% of ours, therefore if a horse uses 90% of its small brain it is in all likelihood considerably brighter than us!!


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## Hullabaloo (28 April 2011)

tristar said:



			small brains, limited ability to think, lacks ability to reason, lives for the moment?,  this is not my evaluation or experience  of horses, indeed i find horses  highly intelligent, quick to learn, super quick to respond, willing to please, delighting and taking pride in their work, and most definately they have reasoning power.   My horse is  thick, it does'nt want to work, it won't go forward, it stops  blah blah blah.... sick of hearing it, blame the horse, when in reality they need to take a good hard look at themselves first, of course that will only be productive if you don't have a small brain, limited ability to think, are lacking ability to res...... 

if you have to hit the horse to make it do it right, or to make it happen at all  there is an issue, this is what we are debating, if you have to whack it half way through a complex because you and the horse might break your necks, should the horse be doing it at all?, these riders make the choice to place themselves and their horses in this position, it puts them in another place from people who train and ride with  kindness and would never risk their horses necks, they see the horse from a completely different perspective.
		
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Who is blaming the horse - all I'm saying is that they think and behave differently from humans so dealing with a horse is not the same as dealing with a child.  It is silly to equate the two.  I'm not suggesting that horses can't learn, but they do not form long term plans, looking into the future in the way people do.  Their behaviour is much more driven by instinct.  In my experience it is when people treat horses as if they are human that behavioural problems arise.

Going cross country at the top level inevitably puts a horse at risk no matter how they are trained and ridden so in that case we shouldn't let horses go cross country at all.  Maybe we shouldn't even ride them as that also presents a risk.  

I was at Badminton on Sunday - I saw Mark's horse pass the trot up and come out and jump the course like it was pony club.  I also saw his delight with the horse when they won.  In my view he did absolutely the right thing in the quarry.  In fact I'd trust Mark Todd to look after my horse's neck any day of the week.


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## Mistatiger (28 April 2011)

I don't usually post on these sort of topics and have to admit that I have read most but not all of the posts. I have had the privilege of riding around Badminton 5 times on a very super horse which, I can assure you, had a ball. He went around in snaffle, no martingale and I don't think was ever hit in his life (he was home bred). These horses are big and powerful and the good ones sometimes do have minds of their own, there is no way we can MAKE them jump these fences. I was one of the lucky ones who didn't need the aid of a whip but believe me if I felt my horse had needed a little encouragement, and I had needed a couple of urges with a whip, I would have been very sad to have read some of the comments in this post. Also on the subject of bits, is it not better to put something a little stronger in their mouths as opposed to swinging and sawing off their teeth in a snaffle? Remember some of these horses won't have been originally broken by the riders who are on them at Badminton so may not have had the chance to create a soft mouth. We all have different riding technique's and are entitled to agree but what a shame we are over looking such a fabulous Badminton with truly fantastic horses an riders working as a team. On the subject of Mark and Land Vision, I have been fortunate enough to have ridden him and he certainly is 'off the leg', happy in his work and thought the world of by Mark and his team. Having said all that I respect all of you who disagree with all of the above and in no way am I saying that I am right in my opinions so please don't shoot me down.


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## Ranyhyn (28 April 2011)

What a beautifully reasonable post Mistatiger!


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## Mistatiger (28 April 2011)

Ta very much!!! LOL.


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## Mrs B (28 April 2011)

Kitsune said:



			What a beautifully reasonable post Mistatiger!
		
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What she said ^^^^^^^^ plus a huge  plus a bit of 

Let's face it, I couldn't jump the queue to get in...


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## Ranyhyn (28 April 2011)

I found this on Youtube - Called hang on Karen O'Connor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du3496C7WwE

I wet myself watching it.


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## Jennyharvey (28 April 2011)

Kitsune said:



			I found this on Youtube - Called hang on Karen O'Connor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du3496C7WwE

I wet myself watching it.
		
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Love this.  Seen it years ago.  Always makes me laugh.  Such a good horse for standing still.


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## Mistatiger (28 April 2011)

Very good!!


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## Jennyharvey (28 April 2011)

Mistatiger said:



			Remember some of these horses won't have been originally broken by the riders who are on them at Badminton so may not have had the chance to create a soft mouth.
		
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Dont worry, not gonna start a argument of anything, just wondering what your views are on softening a horse's mouth.  Do you think that once a horse's mouth is ruined, or hard, that their is no way to fix the problem and get the horse light?

Im a great believer that a horse can be taught to be light and responsive, no matter its age, abilities or training.  Im just curious, because if people believe that once the horse's mouth is spoilt, then using gadgets or certain bits might seem like a suitable tactic to use, because they dont think that the horse can be taught to be light.


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## Mistatiger (28 April 2011)

I think we can 're educate' a horses mouth which become hard through the incorrect beginnings but there is no doubt that when a horses blood is up on a cross country course, I for one would rather be able to use a softer hand with the aid of a slightly stronger bit. I did have one horse which went in a Cheltenam (sorry wrong spelling) gag but I managed to ride him on the snaffle ring eventually. He was fine with that and not strong but if I just put him in a normal snaffle, he knew, and the b***er p***ed off with me!!! And we thought they had small brains!! LOL. Hope that slightly answers the question?


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## amandap (28 April 2011)

Mistatiger said:



			Having said all that I respect all of you who disagree with all of the above and in no way am I saying that I am right in my opinions so please don't shoot me down.
		
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Very kind of you, thankyou. 

Regards being right... none of knows for certain if they are right we are all just saying what we believe and how we see things differently.


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## Jennyharvey (29 April 2011)

Mistatiger said:



			I think we can 're educate' a horses mouth which become hard through the incorrect beginnings but there is no doubt that when a horses blood is up on a cross country course, I for one would rather be able to use a softer hand with the aid of a slightly stronger bit. I did have one horse which went in a Cheltenam (sorry wrong spelling) gag but I managed to ride him on the snaffle ring eventually. He was fine with that and not strong but if I just put him in a normal snaffle, he knew, and the b***er p***ed off with me!!! And we thought they had small brains!! LOL. Hope that slightly answers the question?
		
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Yes thank you.


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## tristar (29 April 2011)

jennyharvey, i think you have a wonderful attitude based on personal experience, observation, not being afraid to say this is what i feel about areas of concern even when confronted by professional employers you have looked inside yourself and made your own decisions and not accepted what you where seeing because it is a competition rider,  and show an insight not often seen in such debates.


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## ozpoz (29 April 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			Lol, when i see a horse go round badminton without a rider, then i will believe he enjoys it.  At the end of the day, we are MAKING the horse do it, regardless if a horse ENJOYS it.  Thats the diference between a human competing, who is willing, and its their decision to do it, compared to a horse, who is ultimately, our slave, doing our bidding, whether it be pulling a plough or competing.
		
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I am surprised to hear you compare a horse to a slave when you are in the field of training. Riding is a partnership, never more so than at top level. 
 Few riders have the courage and ability in all 3 phases to match a  horse capable of going round Badminton but the rest of us can always be inspired 
  I don't know any professional who will persevere with competing a horse who is not enjoying his work. Rather investigate why not, and if it isn't possible to solve the problem then the horse is either in the wrong job, the trainer/ rider isn't competant enough, or there is a medical issue.

Think of a first ridden pony going round a busy ring freely, ears pricked and on it's toes, with a tiny dot balancing on top. Surely that isn't a slave?
A racehorse , seeing a gap and going for it? A fit eventer, assessing just what he needs to do as he make the approach?

 From the Epilogue written for the horse of the year show -

 " He serves without servility"


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## Naomi Hawthorne (29 April 2011)

The whip is used for encouragement... to be safe not cruel! 
They are  air filled, padded whips to prevent the horses being cruelly treated! Mark Todd's horse was young and yes, was tired that's why he used the whip to keep him going and encourage him to get to the end safely NOT for cruelty! They are used to make a cracking noise not to hurt the horse.


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## Naomi Hawthorne (29 April 2011)

amandap said:



			I don't buy this I'm afraid. Perhaps we should have someone whip human athletes to make sure they 'do the job' ? If a horse needs a 'whip' to jump safely then something is very wrong imo and we should be asking if what we are expecting of them is fair, safe and reasonable...
		
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The horses have adrenaline running through their bodies... they have such thick skin, they hardly feel the whip, just hear the cracking noise to encourage them. The horses love the job, if they didn't the riders would not be using them in a top level event such as Badminton!


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## NinjaPony (29 April 2011)

May I point out that MT's horse was ridden XC in a snaffle...... and that he was using a padded racing whip, so the 3 smacks would have made little impact on the horse.


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## 1stclassalan (29 April 2011)

muffinino said:



			Really? So if your horse was being an idiot and for some reason planted in the road, and you thought a swift smack would move them forward out of the way of danger, what would you do?

How would you drive a horse safely without one?
		
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We could argue the ins and outs of this ad infinitum but let start out by saying that if had any idea my horse would play up - I wouldn't take it out - the public road is no place for a training session. 

All the horses I have taken out have been owned and ridden by others before coming into my life, garnering bad and how shall I put it? Alarming habits! However; I worked on these at home to such an extent that they all but disappeared. I feel the biggest part of this work was pure repetition and the amount of time I spent ( it's all in the past unfortunately) with them - I noticed that many of my fellow liveries seemed to operate in some kind of dream world in which a horse could be brought out of its box or field and expected to do exactly what the human wanted for 30mins, then put back in, turned out or left tied up for several hours while last night's telly or whom was sleeping with whom was discussed.

I used to spend vast amounts of time with my horses and at least 50% of that time was observing and bonding rather than riding. I'm too old for "join-up" but my methods are very similar in that I tried to respond to a horse in a horsey manner and thus "talk" to them in a language they understood. Thus my stick was only ever used on the horse as an extension of my hand aids - and it was usually on long before the horse was itself alerted to a problem - I wanted them to appreciate that I was looking out for them.

It is fairly easy to beat things up to get your own way quickly but I don't advocate thrashing docile herbivores simply because I've chosen to take them into a situation they find intimidating - and I put it to you that in that very circumstance - using a whip is absolutely disasterous by jeopardising all that trust built up over time.


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## 1stclassalan (29 April 2011)

Maesfen said:



			I haven't read half of this so expect this will be like a red rag to abull to some but I actually thought Drivetime deserved what he got, it was a deliberate dirty stop; my only problem with it was she took too long to deliver it.
		
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Well, I didn't see this particular incident so I'm not going to rant at you in typical Interweb manner but I will take you up on the general theme.

Most "dirty stops" I've seen were 100% down to the rider - the horse was either overfaced or if more capable was not satifactorily convinced that the rider had the wherewithal to successfully place him correctly and get him over the obstacle without fiddling and fussing half way over - it's no wonder that many horses say - well if that's your attitude you can go over it on your own! So would I in their place.

Beating them up is unforgivable - and as I've seen this kind of temper trantrum in public at International Dressage warm ups - god knows what the poor horses get at home!


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## Jennyharvey (29 April 2011)

tristar said:



			jennyharvey, i think you have a wonderful attitude based on personal experience, observation, not being afraid to say this is what i feel about areas of concern even when confronted by professional employers you have looked inside yourself and made your own decisions and not accepted what you where seeing because it is a competition rider,  and show an insight not often seen in such debates.
		
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Thank you.  I think this is the first time anyone has said something nice about me on this forum lol.


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## Allover (29 April 2011)

1stclassalan said:



			We could argue the ins and outs of this ad infinitum but let start out by saying that if had any idea my horse would play up - I wouldn't take it out - the public road is no place for a training session. 

Life is not so black and white though, there always are and always will be situations that you cannot forsee which will require a stronger approach to the one you normally use

All the horses I have taken out have been owned and ridden by others before coming into my life, garnering bad and how shall I put it? Alarming habits! However; I worked on these at home to such an extent that they all but disappeared. I feel the biggest part of this work was pure repetition and the amount of time I spent ( it's all in the past unfortunately) with them - I noticed that many of my fellow liveries seemed to operate in some kind of dream world in which a horse could be brought out of its box or field and expected to do exactly what the human wanted for 30mins, then put back in, turned out or left tied up for several hours while last night's telly or whom was sleeping with whom was discussed.

I used to spend vast amounts of time with my horses and at least 50% of that time was observing and bonding rather than riding. I'm too old for "join-up" but my methods are very similar in that I tried to respond to a horse in a horsey manner and thus "talk" to them in a language they understood. Thus my stick was only ever used on the horse as an extension of my hand aids - and it was usually on long before the horse was itself alerted to a problem - I wanted them to appreciate that I was looking out for them.
So if the rider had beat the horse with her hands that would have been acceptable? IMO it is the energy behind the action and not the action itself

It is fairly easy to beat things up to get your own way quickly but I don't advocate thrashing docile herbivores simply because I've chosen to take them into a situation they find intimidating - and I put it to you that in that very circumstance - using a whip is absolutely disasterous by jeopardising all that trust built up over time.
		
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Never a truer word spoken


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## Jennyharvey (29 April 2011)

ozpoz said:



			I am surprised to hear you compare a horse to a slave when you are in the field of training. Riding is a partnership, never more so than at top level. 
 Few riders have the courage and ability in all 3 phases to match a  horse capable of going round Badminton but the rest of us can always be inspired 
  I don't know any professional who will persevere with competing a horse who is not enjoying his work. Rather investigate why not, and if it isn't possible to solve the problem then the horse is either in the wrong job, the trainer/ rider isn't competant enough, or there is a medical issue.

Think of a first ridden pony going round a busy ring freely, ears pricked and on it's toes, with a tiny dot balancing on top. Surely that isn't a slave?
A racehorse , seeing a gap and going for it? A fit eventer, assessing just what he needs to do as he make the approach?

 From the Epilogue written for the horse of the year show -

 " He serves without servility"
		
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Got this definition of the web.  
Slave... A person who is held in bondage to another; one who is wholly subject to the will of another; one who is held as a chattel; one who has no freedom of action, but whose person and services are wholly under the control of another. 

Just change the PERSON to HORSE.  Im not saying that everyone treats their horse like this, but a large population of the horse world do, especially someone who has money to win or loose in a horse.  

And your right, it is a partnership, or at least it should be.  Horsemanship is based on trust and understanding.  Unfortunately i see too many riders who push their will onto a horse, instead of creating this parnership.


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## Allover (29 April 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			And your right, it is a partnership, or at least it should be.  Horsemanship is based on trust and understanding.  Unfortunately i see too many riders who push their will onto a horse, instead of creating this parnership.
		
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100% agree but there is a difference between giving the horse a "reminder" to pick its legs up or smacking a horse in the middle of a temper tantrum because things have not gone your way.


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## Jennyharvey (29 April 2011)

1stclassalan said:



			Well, I didn't see this particular incident so I'm not going to rant at you in typical Interweb manner but I will take you up on the general theme.

Most "dirty stops" I've seen were 100% down to the rider - the horse was either overfaced or if more capable was not satifactorily convinced that the rider had the wherewithal to successfully place him correctly and get him over the obstacle without fiddling and fussing half way over - it's no wonder that many horses say - well if that's your attitude you can go over it on your own! So would I in their place.

Beating them up is unforgivable - and as I've seen this kind of temper trantrum in public at International Dressage warm ups - god knows what the poor horses get at home!
		
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Unfortunately you also see this kind of treatment at lower levels too.  I dont go to shows anymore to watch, because i dont like to see the horse punished for rider errors, or a rider getting anoyed because they had faults and taking it out on the horse.  They are not our punch bags for when we get angry.  

You would think that by the time a rider gets to international level, they would have learned to control it.  unfortunately not.  I think the warm up arena and space between warm up and main arena are best places to see the attitude of the rider.


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## lannerch (1 May 2011)

Maesfen said:



			I haven't read half of this so expect this will be like a red rag to abull to some but I actually thought Drivetime deserved what he got, it was a deliberate dirty stop; my only problem with it was she took too long to deliver it.
		
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drivetime would have deserved it if it had been adminstered at the correct time however it was far too late and the correct moment was missed leaving the horse to wonder why it was beaten!
At the time it was given it was thoroughly undeserved!

For those who think a horse does not enjoy badders one word Buzz!

And for those that think whips should be banned have a look at my signiture it relates to you!


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## HollyWoozle (1 May 2011)

amandap said:



			Pushing horses to win a bloomin competition is something I don't think is acceptable. Humans can push themselves as much as they want but a horse cannot be described as a consenting partner imo. 

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I'm curious to know at what point your horse consented to anything you do with them.


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## lannerch (1 May 2011)

I would too 

And I saw no 'Pushing horses to win a bloomin competition' and I was positioned at the quarry!

And with the choice possible 60k by doing something  or the high possiblity of a fall by doing nothing hmm wonder which I would choose even if I was viewing it with the eyes of the horse!


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## intouch (1 May 2011)

lannerch said:



			I would too 


And with the choice possible 60k by doing something  or the high possiblity of a fall by doing nothing hmm wonder which I would choose even if I was viewing it with the eyes of the horse!
		
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I think this is exactly the point some people are trying to make.  Though I can't see a horse caring.


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## lannerch (2 May 2011)

I suspect most horses do care if they fall or not!

remember only the rider knows what is ahead


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## amandap (2 May 2011)

HollyWoozle said:



			I'm curious to know at what point your horse consented to anything you do with them.
		
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In the whole picture, nothing. I keep them fenced in etc. etc. and have the last word on what they eat, where they go in the main, who their friends are.
I think mine consent to a lot of stuff by not showing signs of resistance or displeasure. I can't talk to them and ask them, so I have to go by their reactions and behaviour... 

I have little option but to go by their responses to stuff I do with and to them as to whether they are consenting and/or tolerating. So if they run off or move away from me then I take that to mean they're not keen or not having it full stop. I then try to work out a way to make it acceptable to them.

To me if a horse is flagging or giving signals he is going to evade a jump or anything, then to me he is saying... I don't want to. I don't believe he is being awkward or naughty myself. To me that is our interpretation of what is happening because it isn't what we want.

So if a horse is clearly tired I don't feel it's acceptable to hit it with a crop to wake it up as imo he is clearly saying, I'm tired, I want to stop or not jump that fence. 
We have a choice then, we can force him on with a whip and spurs and our determination or we can listen and stop or do whatever action is safe that takes account of what the horse is telling us.
I think money and the need to win can make us force horses to do stuff they clearly do not want to do.

I wrote that sentence in frustration and didn't word it very well so have tried to explain my thinking here. I'm sure horses do enjoy a good gallop, jumping and being ridden, but I think there are times when they do not enjoy it and I think we should listen to them in those circumstances not just hit them to make them.


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## Allover (2 May 2011)

So if you had a child that did not want to go to school one day because they were tired or worried about it would you make them go? IMO it is the same principle, sometimes we have to do things that we do not necessarily want to do but for our long term education and well being having a bit of a push along the way is by no means detrimental to our future or our mental health (depending on the ways and means used to get the child there). 

The difference IMHO is that some parents would speak to the child and make it happy to go in, some would just present the child at school and leave (regardless of whether it was happy about it or not) and others would give the child a smack and make it go in.


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## amandap (2 May 2011)

Allover said:



			So if you had a child that did not want to go to school one day because they were tired or worried about it would you make them go? IMO it is the same principle, sometimes we have to do things that we do not necessarily want to do but for our long term education and well being having a bit of a push along the way is by no means detrimental to our future or our mental health (depending on the ways and means used to get the child there). 

The difference IMHO is that some parents would speak to the child and make it happy to go in, some would just present the child at school and leave (regardless of whether it was happy about it or not) and others would give the child a smack and make it go in.
		
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Sort of. I do think there are differences because school isn't generally dangerous and there is no immediate finantial or status motivators and we can of course talk to the child and come to an agreement as well as see things very clearly from their point of view.
However, I'd like to also look at why the child is tired and address that in the longer term. Is there something at school the child is worrying about, is the child being bullied or asked to do something it finds hard or isn't ready for, is the child up on playstation all night etc. etc.

So for the horse, why is he tired? Is he fit enough? Are the fences too big, is the course too long etc. etc.

Just thinking perhaps the child gymnast analogy is closer as it is a competition with immediate rewards.


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## lannerch (2 May 2011)

We all have to do things we do not want to do and often for financial motivation,  why should a horse be different? They do after all unless you have endless sums of money have to earn their keep.

Even a child going to school for eventually an education that will lead to a better job is indirectly financial motivation.

I do agree though you should be questioning why the problems are occuring.

Mark todd certaily said on fininshing as the horse finished tired he would be looking at changing the horses fitness program.


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## amandap (2 May 2011)

lannerch said:



			We all have to do things we do not want to do and often for financial motivation,  why should a horse be different? They do after all unless you have endless sums of money have to earn their keep.
		
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This is perhaps for me the real issue. I choose to keep horses, I don't earn a living from them but I suppose I could choose to, as many do.
Whichever scenario we are talking about using another animal to make a living not using ourselves. We are in control and make this choice, I don't believe horses choose to go and work for someone to earn their keep though. 
Much of what we do is a compromise for us and for the horses but for me when this compromise starts to negatively affect or hurt the horse I feel an unfair balance is happening. I don't feel I have a right to hurt a horse to force it to 'earn it's keep'. 
As many keep saying , horses are not humans and in truth they have little choice in their lives and in the main happily and willingly go along with all our asks and quirks. In return I feel I have a duty to ensure that I listen and do my best to keep him healthy, happy and safe and feel secure. Being responsible for any animal is a big ask and it shouldn't be all one sided imo.
Horses live, breathe and have opinions and emotions I want to try and take account of that not just do what I want regardless of what the horse thinks about it.

Mta. I'm talking in general here btw.


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## Allover (2 May 2011)

OK you can keep the child gymnast analogy 

Much of what we do is a compromise for us and for the horses but for me when this compromise starts to negatively affect or hurt the horse I feel an unfair balance is happening. I don't feel I have a right to hurt a horse to force it to 'earn it's keep'. 
As many keep saying , horses are not humans and in truth they have little choice in their lives and in the main happily and willingly go along with all our asks and quirks. In return I feel I have a duty to ensure that I listen and do my best to keep him healthy, happy and safe and feel secure. Being responsible for any animal is a big ask and it shouldn't be all one sided imo.
Horses live, breathe and have opinions and emotions I want to try and take account of that not just do what I want regardless of what the horse thinks about it.



Completely agree


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## lannerch (2 May 2011)

I would not choose to go and earn my keep either the same as a dairy cow does not choose to earn its keep by having its calf taken away when it is a day or so old.

A rabbit does not choose to be eaten by a fox life is unfair we cannot do what we choose, whether we be man or beast!

Most professional riders whose horses certainly have to earn their keep would also feel they have a duty to keep them healthy happy and safe they have a vested interest to do this , as a happy healthy horse is also a winning horse which is why many hapily turn their valuable animals out and let them be a horse.

Going back to mark todd, if he had run his horse to the ground do you really think it would have come out so fresh and jumped so well for him the next day. 
Mark todd is a true proffesional, and  he lets his horses be horses and I for one would totally trust his judgement on when to pull up and when to nurse home!


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## lannerch (2 May 2011)

Hope I am not coming across as too argumentative I am dosed up to the eyeballs on painkillers from a heavy fall from a horse I am schooling when it choose not to jump a cross country fence!


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## Cadfael&Coffee (2 May 2011)

just to throw my two cents in...

The way that Drivetime was punished was completely overboard, the horse did NOT know what he was being punished for, and all she did by doing so was to upset him into a bucking fit. 

i may not be a 4* rider, but i saw that stop coming as she went into the fence- it was complete rider error, and the horse should not have been walloped for it. IMHO she had a tantrum because she knew damn well that she should have kept him going.

Mark Todd was a different matter- not once did he raise his whip in anger, nor did he run his horse into the ground. yes, it was very very tired, but it was in no way on the verge of collapse, nor was it beaten across the fences and finish line, as some posters seem to think!!

not like andreas whatsit- that was, quite frankly, disgusting.


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## Equibrit (2 May 2011)

In order to make a judgement on this matter you would have to be aware of what THIS particular horse needed in this situation. I would hazard a guess that none of you know better than Mark Todd with regard to THIS horse and THIS situation. In absence of any knowledge this is all s--t stirring gossip and speculation.


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## amandap (2 May 2011)

lannerch said:



			Hope I am not coming across as too argumentative I am dosed up to the eyeballs on painkillers from a heavy fall from a horse I am schooling when it choose not to jump a cross country fence!  

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Not at all. Hope you feel better soon.


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## Allover (2 May 2011)

Equibrit said:



			In order to make a judgement on this matter you would have to be aware of what THIS particular horse needed in this situation. I would hazard a guess that none of you know better than Mark Todd with regard to THIS horse and THIS situation. In absence of any knowledge this is all s--t stirring gossip and speculation.
		
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Whoa steady up there 

It is not s*** stirring gossip and speculation, it is people on a forum discussing whether it is right to smack a horse or not. The majority of people on this thread have said that they would trust Marks judgment on any of their horses but that some of the other professional riders had their timing all wrong or caused the problem in the first place, in which case should they then be able to pick up the whip and give the horse a good whallop for their mistake? 

I think most people on here know the difference between the two situations and are also well within their rights to have an opinion


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## beth123 (2 May 2011)

Allover said:



			Whoa steady up there 

It is not s*** stirring gossip and speculation, it is people on a forum discussing whether it is right to smack a horse or not. The majority of people on this thread have said that they would trust Marks judgment on any of their horses but that some of the other professional riders had their timing all wrong or caused the problem in the first place, in which case should they then be able to pick up the whip and give the horse a good whallop for their mistake? 

I think most people on here know the difference between the two situations and are also well within their rights to have an opinion 

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ive only just read this, but .... seriously??! now were not allowed to slap horses and tell them to pick there feet up, without being labeled a horse beater. and as for jasom maguire being a 'thug', for 'excessive' use of the whip. racing sticks dont hurt, he cant use it above hsi shoulder. and did the horse look in pain for the skolding it got?? errrrr no. 
A lso if you love horses so much and worry so much about there welfare, why are you hoping a horse fails the trot up, surely then it would be in pain?


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## Allover (2 May 2011)

Beth123 did you mean to quote me then?


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## kirstyl (2 May 2011)

Cadfael&Coffee said:



			just to throw my two cents in...

The way that Drivetime was punished was completely overboard, the horse did NOT know what he was being punished for, and all she did by doing so was to upset him into a bucking fit. 

i may not be a 4* rider, but i saw that stop coming as she went into the fence- it was complete rider error, and the horse should not have been walloped for it. IMHO she had a tantrum because she knew damn well that she should have kept him going.

Mark Todd was a different matter- not once did he raise his whip in anger, nor did he run his horse into the ground. yes, it was very very tired, but it was in no way on the verge of collapse, nor was it beaten across the fences and finish line, as some posters seem to think!!

not like andreas whatsit- that was, quite frankly, disgusting.
		
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Agree with you entirely


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## Over2You (2 May 2011)

beth123 said:



			ive only just read this, but .... seriously??! now were not allowed to slap horses and tell them to pick there feet up, without being labeled a horse beater. and as for jasom maguire being a 'thug', for 'excessive' use of the whip. racing sticks dont hurt, he cant use it above hsi shoulder. and did the horse look in pain for the skolding it got?? errrrr no. 
A lso if you love horses so much and worry so much about there welfare, why are you hoping a horse fails the trot up, surely then it would be in pain?
		
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Eh, 'excessive' use of the whip? He got *BANNED* because it *WAS* excessive use of the whip!! In fact, it was just a month after he got handed a ban because he had *MARKED* a horse during a race!! Did you even watch the National? Every time he struck Ballabriggs (which was more than a dozen times from last fence to finish), he had the whip *OVER* his shoulder. Over the period of just three months, he has received four bans. Unfortunately, he had two if not three of those quashed. At least his National ban stuck.


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## beth123 (4 May 2011)

Over2You said:



			Eh, 'excessive' use of the whip? He got *BANNED* because it *WAS* excessive use of the whip!! In fact, it was just a month after he got handed a ban because he had *MARKED* a horse during a race!! Did you even watch the National? Every time he struck Ballabriggs (which was more than a dozen times from last fence to finish), he had the whip *OVER* his shoulder. Over the period of just three months, he has received four bans. Unfortunately, he had two if not three of those quashed. At least his National ban stuck. 

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maybe he got caught up in the moment adrenelin pumping, but to label him a 'thug'? i dont think so the horse showed no ill efffects after the race, and to be honest enjoyed every stride off the race! should all horse sport be banned, and all these horses left to rot in fields?


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## beth123 (4 May 2011)

Allover said:



			Beth123 did you mean to quote me then?
		
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allover, no sorry. new to the forum just about worked it out now!


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## Over2You (4 May 2011)

beth123 said:



			maybe he got caught up in the moment adrenelin pumping, but to label him a 'thug'? i dont think so the horse showed no ill efffects after the race, and to be honest enjoyed every stride off the race! should all horse sport be banned, and all these horses left to rot in fields?
		
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No ill effects after the race? Ballabriggs *NEEDED OXYGEN*!! Not to mention the fact that he and a number of the other horses could barely walk!! No ill effects? Don't make me laugh!!

Additionally, I am at a loss to know how you can say that someone who whips a horse so badly that he weals, is not a thug. If anybody did that to my Guy, I would thrash the living daylights out of them!!


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## lannerch (4 May 2011)

What has this got to do with 'inconsiderate whip use at badmington'?


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## beth123 (5 May 2011)

Over2You said:



			No ill effects after the race? Ballabriggs *NEEDED OXYGEN*!! Not to mention the fact that he and a number of the other horses could barely walk!! No ill effects? Don't make me laugh!!

Additionally, I am at a loss to know how you can say that someone who whips a horse so badly that he weals, is not a thug. If anybody did that to my Guy, I would thrash the living daylights out of them!!
		
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did you not feel the temperature?? and have you ever felt a racing whip? their cushioned, jason could slap me with one if he really wanted! and really ive no idea, just computer 'experts'...


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## Bug2007 (5 May 2011)

This one has got some backs up......


nothing more to say than i'll see you all at Badminton next year riding without a whip at all. 

I think he did the right thing he didn't lay into the horse unlike the one that stopped at the water, now she was out of order as far as i was concerned.


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## Allover (5 May 2011)

Bug2007 said:



			This one has got some backs up......


nothing more to say than i'll see you all at Badminton next year riding without a whip at all. 

I think he did the right thing he didn't lay into the horse unlike the one that stopped at the water, now she was out of order as far as i was concerned.
		
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Trust me you wont see me riding round badminton in this life time, nutters the lot of them


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## Allover (5 May 2011)

beth123 said:



			did you not feel the temperature?? and have you ever felt a racing whip? their cushioned, jason could slap me with one if he really wanted! and really ive no idea, just computer 'experts'...
		
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TBH eternal influences like the ground and the weather should in no way make it excusable that the horse was ridden to the point of exhaustion and needing oxygen (i did not see the national as no televised coverage here and am shocked to know this), IMO there is a line and that line is crossed when the rider, adrenilin pumping or not, gets a horse into that state. 

The majority of people on this thread have said that it is acceptable to use the whip as a reminder but not as a means of punishment or as a means to get the horse to collapsing point. That is just abuse. If Ballabrigs had collapsed and died after the race would you still be able to defend the jockey?


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## beth123 (5 May 2011)

Allover said:



			TBH eternal influences like the ground and the weather should in no way make it excusable that the horse was ridden to the point of exhaustion and needing oxygen (i did not see the national as no televised coverage here and am shocked to know this), IMO there is a line and that line is crossed when the rider, adrenilin pumping or not, gets a horse into that state. 

The majority of people on this thread have said that it is acceptable to use the whip as a reminder but not as a means of punishment or as a means to get the horse to collapsing point. That is just abuse. If Ballabrigs had collapsed and died after the race would you still be able to defend the jockey?
		
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I agree that excessive whip use shouldnt be used as punishmennt, but people obviously have their own ideas about what they deem 'excessive'.
as to if the horse had collapsed i would still defend him yes... althought ballabriggs is very tired after the race, in the run in hes what a length infront? and im pretty sure had oscar time come to him, he'd have found abit more. That horse is an exception with a massive heart. 

just put this out there, if jason maguire is such a horse beating selfish thug, why did he dismount and walk in on foot? i didnt see anyone telling him to get off, he jumped of instantly!


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## teagreen (5 May 2011)

Allover said:



			TBH eternal influences like the ground and the weather should in no way make it excusable that the horse was ridden to the point of exhaustion and needing oxygen (i did not see the national as no televised coverage here and am shocked to know this), IMO there is a line and that line is crossed when the rider, adrenilin pumping or not, gets a horse into that state. 

The majority of people on this thread have said that it is acceptable to use the whip as a reminder but not as a means of punishment or as a means to get the horse to collapsing point. That is just abuse. If Ballabrigs had collapsed and died after the race would you still be able to defend the jockey?
		
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Eventing isn't really my 'thing', but I do like to go along to the bigger events on cross country day, and I have seen event horses need oxygen. The finish of the National was very public, but you don't see so much of the finish of eventing, and I think you'd be surprised if you stood at the finish all day, especially on very hot days. Can anyone remember how the horses were finishing at the Beijing Olympics? (genuine question, I can't remember, I remember all the precautions they had set up though)

I saw a few horses at Badminton who equalled Ballabriggs on the exhausted front. However, there was no lasting damage to those event horses or to the racehorses - the next day, Ballabriggs was fine and, for example, Mark Todd's horse was fine. It was just as much 'abuse' seeing those event riders use their legs as opposed to a stick to get their knackered horses over the finish line.


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## cptrayes (5 May 2011)

Over2You said:



			Additionally, I am at a loss to know how you can say that someone who whips a horse so badly that he weals, is not a thug.
		
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Some thin-skinned thoroughbreds would raise a weal if you breathed on them too hard.


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## beth123 (5 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Some thin-skinned thoroughbreds would raise a weal if you breathed on them too hard.
		
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hahaha agree!


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## Allover (5 May 2011)

From what í remember of the Beijing Olympics a huge amount of thought and preparation had gone into getting the horses cooled of after the XC, there were water spray tents and the like and also the horses were there a few weeks beforehand (i am willing to be corrected on this) to help acclimatise. But i do remember riders pushing their horses, IMO, too hard on the course. Was it Andrew Nicholson who was riding the older horse round, it was "dead on its feet" and AN was riding it hard right up to the point it fell. This IMO was not a honourable display of horsemanship! Some of the horses coped ok and others didnt. I also remember WFP taking a flier at the last, i thought my heart was going to stop!!! 

At the end of the day it boils down to what sits comfortably with the individual, i would never want to ride a horse to the point of exhaustion, i am not talking tired here, and i think when horses get to the point where they cant get enough oxygen into their systems and need help to do so something is wrong with their managment and the riders pushing them that far. There is always another day and who knows the long term damage? 

As humans we have a voice, we can pull up when we know we cant go any further, Horses dont, the riders become their voice and a good horseman will do what is best for the animal not for himself or the team and they certainly should not whip them to push themselves over the line.


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## Allover (5 May 2011)

beth123 said:



			I agree that excessive whip use shouldnt be used as punishmennt, but people obviously have their own ideas about what they deem 'excessive'.
as to if the horse had collapsed i would still defend him yes... althought ballabriggs is very tired after the race, in the run in hes what a length infront? and im pretty sure had oscar time come to him, he'd have found abit more. That horse is an exception with a massive heart.
		
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Now i find it a bit shocking that you would deem it OK to push a horse to the point of collapse and death. IMO that is never OK, regardless of the competition or the horses position in it. The horse having a big heart does not make it OK.


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## Megan_T (5 May 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			Frankly, I think it's a trade off. It's not one they can choose, it's one they just get. The best horse I looked after slept in a stable underneath my bed. If he had a problem, I got up, simple as.  All the others were as indulged, but for their bedroom 
Top nutrition, back care, dental care, tack, rugs, feed, veterinary attention, training ... life of riley. Not the point of course if they secretly wanted to be a folk singer, but we can't help that.
Equally some horses are out in all weathers, covered in mud, and if they're lucky, otherwise healthy. If they're not, riddled with worms, under or over fed, misunderstood, uncomfortable and cold. We can't know if they'd rather be a rockstar.
Some get lucky, they get the middle ground, and it's the exact place they fit.
I know when I was working, my boys would not have known what to do with mud, cold, and untrained riders. They were happy enough. They loved the crowds, and they loved their slaves. 
We can't overthink it. It just is. 
If we're going to act on anything, it must be palpable cruelty, like live export.
		
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Brilliant post, well said.


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## Megan_T (5 May 2011)

pip6 said:



			...which will hopefully then trickle down to unaffiliated where I believe the majority of whip abuse occurs (just go watch a local hunter trial for whip tantrums).
		
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Pip6 you are SO right - I went to a small local show last weekend with my friend and saw so many teengers whipping the ar*e off their horses and ponies. I was quite shocked to be honest, no-one batted an eyelid. I even said to my friend when we were watching that if she treated a horse like that at a higher level event, she'd be reprimanded for mis-use of the whip!

Barmy really.


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## Over2You (5 May 2011)

beth123 said:



			I agree that excessive whip use shouldnt be used as punishmennt, but people obviously have their own ideas about what they deem 'excessive'.
as to if the horse had collapsed i would still defend him yes... althought ballabriggs is very tired after the race, in the run in hes what a length infront? and im pretty sure had oscar time come to him, he'd have found abit more. That horse is an exception with a massive heart. 

just put this out there, if jason maguire is such a horse beating selfish thug, why did he dismount and walk in on foot? i didnt see anyone telling him to get off, he jumped of instantly!
		
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So, you are saying that thrashing a horse more than a dozen times over a very short distance is okay? I would hate to think what you deem excessive. Better yet, let's get one of those 'pain free' racing whips, and lash you with full force more than twelve times, then we will see how quick you are to advocate their use. As for saying you would still defend that whip happy monster if the horse had collapsed. Well, that just goes to show how little you care about animal welfare. Just as long as the horse gets over the finish line and makes money. To hell with how that is accomplished. What a horrid attitude!!

As for dismounting. The jockeys were *TOLD* to do that before the race started.


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## beth123 (5 May 2011)

Over2You said:



			So, you are saying that thrashing a horse more than a dozen times over a very short distance is okay? I would hate to think what you deem excessive. Better yet, let's get one of those 'pain free' racing whips, and lash you with full force more than twelve times, then we will see how quick you are to advocate their use. As for saying you would still defend that whip happy monster if the horse had collapsed. Well, that just goes to show how little you care about animal welfare. Just as long as the horse gets over the finish line and makes money. To hell with how that is accomplished. What a horrid attitude!!

As for dismounting. The jockeys were *TOLD* to do that before the race started.
		
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to me thrashing is an agressive harsh, way were as the 'whipping' that is sued when pushing a racehorse out is a completely different type of 'smack' they actaully really dont hurt, the ammount of times ive been hit across the arse with one from the lads i should know! how i see it is these horses be they eventers, racehorses dressage horses enjoy what they are doing and id much rather one die doing what it loved, adrenelin pumping, crowd cheering than stuck down in a field couldnt get up and not discovered for hours...

Personally i wouldnt push my horses to exhaustion because there not top level horses, but the horses in question are athletes. bred for this, their whole lives have been aimed at it, have you ever felt a super fit horse? dont think you could hurt them with a cushion whip.


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## beth123 (5 May 2011)

skewbald again i agree!!


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## Elf On A Shelf (5 May 2011)

beth123 said:



			The dismounting jason was on off the first to dismount.
		
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He was one of the first off 'cos he was one of the first over the line  

Davey Russell on the other hand was off 'cos he and his horse parted company and I reckon he only grabbed Ballabrigs to walk and wash down so he could get his 5 mins of glory on tv by leading the winner of the National  I'll ask him next time I see him!


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## beth123 (5 May 2011)

EKW said:



			He was one of the first off 'cos he was one of the first over the line  

Davey Russell on the other hand was off 'cos he and his horse parted company and I reckon he only grabbed Ballabrigs to walk and wash down so he could get his 5 mins of glory on tv by leading the winner of the National  I'll ask him next time I see him!
		
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hahahha i knew someone would make a joke!! i agree he just wanted to pretend he'd won haha


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## Over2You (6 May 2011)

beth123 said:



			to me thrashing is an agressive harsh, way were as the 'whipping' that is sued when pushing a racehorse out is a completely different type of 'smack' they actaully really dont hurt, the ammount of times ive been hit across the arse with one from the lads i should know! how i see it is these horses be they eventers, racehorses dressage horses enjoy what they are doing and id much rather one die doing what it loved, adrenelin pumping, crowd cheering than stuck down in a field couldnt get up and not discovered for hours...

Personally i wouldnt push my horses to exhaustion because there not top level horses, but the horses in question are athletes. bred for this, their whole lives have been aimed at it, have you ever felt a super fit horse? dont think you could hurt them with a cushion whip.
		
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I am sorry, but the first few lines of your top paragraph did not make any sense (grammatically speaking). Were you trying to say that whipping and thrashing are two different things? If so, then you should look at this link. Also search its thesaurus for both 'whip' and 'thrash'. You will find they are one and the same. 

Please make a video of yourself being whipped more than a dozen times. With each lash of the whip being exerted at full force. I would love to see your facial expressions.


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## Allover (6 May 2011)

Over2You said:



			Please make a video of yourself being whipped more than a dozen times. With each lash of the whip being exerted at full force. I would love to see your facial expressions.
		
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I think there are other forums more appropriate to THAT kind of video


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## beth123 (6 May 2011)

have you ever pushed a horse out.......
it isnt a whipping as in normal riding, more encouragement an exta leg if you will! 

Have you never slapped, whipped or thrashed youre horse, whichever grammar you wish to use?
if you say no, i find it hard to believe


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## JanetGeorge (7 May 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			Sorry, but to say horse's dont experience pain the same way we do is utter rubbish.  Yes they use their teeth to scratch friends, and a nip isnt gonna draw blood.  They may have a thicker skin, than us, and hair too, but they still feel pain.  So what you are saying is that its perfectly ok to hit a horse with a whip, rope, whatever, because they dont feel pain like us?
		
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Horses experience pain in much the same way as we do - of course!  No-one in their right mind would deny that.  But there is NO doubt that what would hurt us rather badly - even fatally - doesn't hurt or damage a horse anywhere near as badly!

I can assure you that if my husband crunched on my neck HALF as hard as my stallion does on his mares' necks, I sure as hell wouldn't be cuddling up saying 'take me I'm yours' as they do!!  He's be in bloody A&E!!


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## JanetGeorge (7 May 2011)

amandap said:



			I don't feel I have a right to hurt a horse to force it to 'earn it's keep'.
		
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Sadly, horses who don't 'earn their keep' in SOME way - even it is just as a companion - end up in a far worse situation than getting a couple of smacks at Badminton!!

I regularly get horses in for re-educating who are drinking at the Last Chance Saloon.  If I can't get them 'right', then they're off to a sale (unwarranted!) or a dealer.  If it takes a couple of smacks to correct bad behaviour and get them listening, then that's a very small price for them to pay to ensure a better future!  (Obviously, not every problem horse requires smacks - but some do!)


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## Sportznight (7 May 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			I can assure you that if my husband crunched on my neck HALF as hard as my stallion does on his mares' necks, I sure as hell wouldn't be cuddling up saying 'take me I'm yours' as they do!!  He's be in bloody A&E!!

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That has to be the best, most apt and funniest thing I have ever read on this forum!!


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## Dobiegirl (7 May 2011)

I cant get that image of JG out of my mind with her husband off to A&E. I thought Id strayed on to the wrong forum Still it did lighten this thread which has got ridiculous. I must have blinked when I watched Badmiinton as I saw nothing untoward, but Im a racing buff so maybe Im hardened to all that whipping.


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