# Petrol prices



## Spudlet (15 November 2011)

Don't know if you've seen this on the news this morning, but MPs are debating petrol prices today, in light of the planned 3p increase coming in fuel duty in the New Year. So, you can email your MP asking them to represent your point of view using this site:
http://www.writetothem.com/?keyword=...FQRP4QodnCtcGg

If it goes up another 3p, I really don't know how I'll manage


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## irish_only (15 November 2011)

And then they say that prices may reach £1.40 in January. Don't know about everyone else but diesel has been that price around me for some time. Maybe they think that we who live out in the sticks should walk everywhere or catch a bus. If I did this I could add B&B to the cost for the necessary overnight stay due to the infrequency of them.


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## FairyLights (15 November 2011)

Deisel is £1.44 here. It really does have an effect. I cant see how 3p is either here or there TBH it needs reducing by about 50p a litre IMO


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## ISHmad (15 November 2011)

The Labour government have a lot to answer for, it was them who put the fuel escalator or whatever it is called in place.  The Tories have to put a halt to rising prices, it is beyond ridiculous now.  Diesel is never below 139.9 round here and petrol not far behind it.


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## PucciNPoni (15 November 2011)

irish_only said:



			And then they say that prices may reach £1.40 in January. Don't know about everyone else but diesel has been that price around me for some time. Maybe they think that we who live out in the sticks should walk everywhere or catch a bus. If I did this I could add B&B to the cost for the necessary overnight stay due to the infrequency of them.
		
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Already £1.40 here at the indendent petrol stations.  My hubby said he paid £1.50 on the M'way last week!


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## Piglet (15 November 2011)

We pay about £1.37 at Morrisons, for some reason the government seem to think that everyone lives within walking distance if a bus stop and work 9-5!!!  In reality people work shifts, no bus stop nearby etc etc.  I have definitely cut down on my outings with the trailer, the outlook us gloomy for all of us, where is the fuel protester leader Mr Haddock who was a big name in the fuel strikes of 2001?


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## Doncella (15 November 2011)

I have emailed my MP, thanks for the link.


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## EmmasMummy (15 November 2011)

I heard them talk about it on the radio on the way to work, saying how they want to press the oil companies to lower prices which will in turn reduce the cost of fuel.....................typical.  They are passing the buck - its not the price of oil that keeps our prices at the pumps its the duty!  

I only use the car for essential journeys - nursery - work - Nursery - Home!  that's 30 miles a day though - 3 days a week.  So I am bout £160 a month in fuel with all the other trips. 

From PetrolPrices.com

The graphics below explain the costs that make up the price of a litre of unleaded at 132.9p and a litre of diesel at 137.9p so you can see whos getting the biggest slice of the petrol pie:


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## Kat (15 November 2011)

It would help no end if they calculated the vat on the price of the fuel not the price of the fuel + duty......


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## EmmasMummy (15 November 2011)

Or, just stop charging 60% duty on fuel would be a good start - but then that would leave the government with a big big deficit and in this current economic climate that wouldn't be good, so it is a tad catch 22 isn't it? 

Cars are going to go back to being a luxury, which is going to be a bother as now most local shops are v expensive and well, supermarkets have destroyed local high streets, so without a car, it will make big shops hard etc.  cut down or the activities we take part in etc. 
Cut down on where we spend money.................and it goes on and on and on.  For me it limits how often I see family and friends.


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## perfect11s (15 November 2011)

EmmasMummy said:



			Or, just stop charging 60% duty on fuel would be a good start - but then that would leave the government with a big big deficit and in this current economic climate that wouldn't be good, so it is a tad catch 22 isn't it? 

Cars are going to go back to being a luxury, which is going to be a bother as now most local shops are v expensive and well, supermarkets have destroyed local high streets, so without a car, it will make big shops hard etc.  cut down or the activities we take part in etc. 
Cut down on where we spend money.................and it goes on and on and on.  For me it limits how often I see family and friends.
		
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 Yes not funny... ok if you are at the bottom or the top of the income scale but realy tough if you are somewhere in the middle 
and paying for it, from chavs swaning round eating greggs and waching kyle all day to the bankers bailed out and carrying on as before, bonuses and gambling with our money!!  forign aid topping up dictators swiss bank acounts and  then the money we pour in to the EU we realy need to start asking questions about how all not just fuel taxes are being spent..


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## EmmasMummy (15 November 2011)

perfect11s said:



			Yes not funny... ok if you are at the bottom or the top of the income scale but realy tough if you are somewhere in the middle 
and paying for it, from chavs swaning round eating greggs and waching kyle all day to the bankers bailed out and carrying on as before, bonuses and gambling with our money!!  forign aid topping up dictators swiss bank acounts and  then the money we pour in to the EU we realy need to start asking questions about how all not just fuel taxes are being spent..
		
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I am sure I read something the other day about how vehicle excise duty isn't spent on the road upkeep (well its not ROAD tax really is it, its a pollution tax). 

If I wrote to westminster to ask what exactly is the break down of spending for the petrol duty that they take in they would have to tell me wouldnt they?  As I am now curious, and even if it costs me £10 would like to know!


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## perfect11s (15 November 2011)

EmmasMummy said:



			I am sure I read something the other day about how vehicle excise duty isn't spent on the road upkeep (well its not ROAD tax really is it, its a pollution tax). 

If I wrote to westminster to ask what exactly is the break down of spending for the petrol duty that they take in they would have to tell me wouldnt they?  As I am now curious, and even if it costs me £10 would like to know!
		
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 I think you will find all taxes and dutys just go into the pot  and very little is ring fenced !!!and no not a polution tax.... just tax, and yes asking is ok but the real question is how is the total tax take  as a whole  is being spent.......


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## olop (15 November 2011)

Me & my OH are trying to find a place to live so that I can walk to work - I drive 10 miles to work (there & back) & 4 miles to the yard (and back) & this little round trip is costing me £50 a week in fuel (in a little Citroen Saxo) my car tax went from £82 for 6 months to a wopping £118 (for 6 months) this year & we can no longer afford to run my car anymore.  Add in another £40 a month for insurance & my car costs me just short of £300 a month to run!!

We have been going under for a long time but if it carries on the car will have to go & I will have to find a job that I can walk to work to.  Pone will probably have to go as well


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## Suechoccy (15 November 2011)

Diesel is £1.44 a litre in my area (Cambs)


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## cptrayes (15 November 2011)

Oil is running out. They keep announcing "big" finds but if you do some research you will find that a "big" find these days will keep the world going for another two weeks.  They proclaim "tar sands" that cost almost as much in fuel to extract and process as they deliver, and at a huge cost to the environment. Take a look at a Canadian tar sands extraction site:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSBj2gI5t8wO2FBdMEiF_YPVDZ68EcIQVQyvh7FBGcznwNRgcMYXQ

Shale oil is the latest one being trumpeted. It is obtained by cracking rocks far underground. Possibly OK if you don't mind the surface of the planet above it falling to pieces and aren't among the scientists and engineers who believe that it is extremely dangerous to destablise large areas like that. Still takes almost as much energy to get out as it delivers.

Biofuel - forget it. If you want to know why your chip fat in the supermarket is costing 30% more than it did a year ago, blame biofuel. We cannot grow enough to feed the world and run our cars on oil based fuels as well. Especially not as fertilizers are made from oil and will not be available to artificially increase yields.

Diesel and petrol are going to get more and more and more expensive as oil gets more scarce and the only thing that we can do now is to learn to live without it. It's a bummer for poorer people and very unfair, but if we go on using oil, the only alternative will be rationing.

I feel so sorry for the generation after me. We had it all and squandered half of it. My younger relatives are in for a difficult time....


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## Mince Pie (15 November 2011)

Fair enough C but then the government needs to get off their arses and put a decent public transport system in the country!


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## Mince Pie (15 November 2011)

http://www.fairfueluk.com/quentins_blog.php?entry_id=1321377047


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## dominobrown (15 November 2011)

broke_but_happy said:



			Fair enough C but then the government needs to get off their arses and put a decent public transport system in the country!
		
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Yep, there is NO public transport near me. Its a 4 MILE WALK to a bus or tain station. But due to rising fuel prices bus and trains are getting more and more expensive. Every 6 months the train goes up by 50p to £1 on the journey I normally take. I drive a LAndrover, and its only slightly more expensive that the train, as I need a lift to the train station, then a taxi in preston at the other end (don't fancy walking in that part of preston at night with a laptop etc), so it works out the same. Also I would say at least 60% of the time the train is late so its an inconvience.

Because of fuel prices, everything will get more expensive (food is already more expensive), and as unemployment is rising, no new jobs are being created, wages aren't rising significantly, living prices are getting higher, heating, water and electricty are all going up.
Something has to give, I predict the worse


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## cptrayes (15 November 2011)

broke_but_happy said:



			Fair enough C but then the government needs to get off their arses and put a decent public transport system in the country!
		
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Completely and totally agree.   I used to think we elected politicians to do the right long term thing for us all. In my old age I am sadly disillusioned, they seem to do only what will get them another 4-5 years in power


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## perfect11s (15 November 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Completely and totally agree.   I used to think we elected politicians to do the right long term thing for us all. In my old age I am sadly disillusioned, they seem to do only what will get them another 4-5 years in power 

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 Public transport!!!! fine in a city and urban but ineficent and useless  out in the sticks always will be .. and how many want to wait for a smelly old bus full of smelly horrid people???  sorry but we have invented the car its better....  maybe we should get rid of all the subsidised  poluting  buses   and build light rail transit systems to serve the urban areas  tax cars where there is a viable alternitive but help the rural driver  where there isnt , oh and there is plenty of oil just our greedy ineficent goverment is wasting money and  fuel tax is a easy target esp when the ecomental lobby  backs the tax increases the  comie mupets.....


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## stencilface (15 November 2011)

I would say - keep hold of your horses - we might need them for more mundane tasks in the years to come


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## cptrayes (15 November 2011)

perfect11s said:



			oh and there is plenty of oil just our greedy ineficent goverment is wasting money and  fuel tax is a easy target esp when the ecomental lobby  backs the tax increases the  comie mupets.....
		
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Sorry Perfect, there isn't plenty of oil. We hit the peak of oil production in the world some time ago and sources are now running out. There is a measurable and terribly finite amount of even moderately easily available oil and it is irreplaceable for millenia until more algae die and get compressed into new oil.

We have to learn to live without it. How is still an unanswered question , since we dress in it, fertilize our crops with it (ie we eat it), use it to package everything and drive our cars, trains, trucks, buses, planes and power stations with it.

The car is better than public transport, I agree. Electric cars may be an answer (if we can solve the fact that we are also running out of the stuff we currently use to run nuclear power stations). But oil based fuels most certainly are not.


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## dominobrown (15 November 2011)

comie muppets? We might better off with them than neo-liberal d***s which have been in power for far too long.
cptrayes- you are right, we can't rely on oil as fuel. We need to have alternatives asap, or drastic fuel saving alternatives, so demand is reduced. We can't go on as we are for much longer.


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## Dizzydancer (15 November 2011)

has there been a vote on how whats planned for january or still waiting?? 
Also i live about 5mins away froma  bus stop which is all well and good but i couldnt get to work on one as i would ahve to leave about 2hours before i need to to enable me to catch the buses at the next stops...not exactly feasible in a world is it considering my work is actually only 7miles away but public transport in the country is *****...if its improved and i can get to work in 30mins i would probably give it a go atleast a few days a week. However i think ill be retired before that happens bring back the horse and cart!!


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## KarynK (15 November 2011)

dominobrown said:



			comie muppets? We might better off with them than neo-liberal d***s which have been in power for far too long.
cptrayes- you are right, we can't rely on oil as fuel. We need to have alternatives asap, or drastic fuel saving alternatives, so demand is reduced. We can't go on as we are for much longer.
		
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There are alternatives and have been for years but the ideas and patents are sitting in locked cupboard of the oil companies!!!!!!!!!!!!  Who have been spending what to us would be a lot to buy them up for very obvious reasons!


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## Kat (16 November 2011)

Electric cars aren't the answer as we still need to generate the electric (not to mention the inefficiency and impracticality) we should be investing in more research into the hydrogen fuel cell as this would allow us to drive in a way that resembles current car use far more than using electricity.


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## EmmasMummy (16 November 2011)

dizzydancer said:



			has there been a vote on how whats planned for january or still waiting?? 
Also i live about 5mins away froma  bus stop which is all well and good but i couldnt get to work on one as i would ahve to leave about 2hours before i need to to enable me to catch the buses at the next stops...not exactly feasible in a world is it considering my work is actually only 7miles away but public transport in the country is *****...if its improved and i can get to work in 30mins i would probably give it a go atleast a few days a week. However i think ill be retired before that happens bring back the horse and cart!!
		
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Same here.  To get to work 2 days a week bus would be fine, just leave 20 mins early as there is bus lane and I can walk at the other end. 

The other 3 days, I would not be starting work till near 10am rather than 8am as would get bus to 1mile from nursery (closest stop - rural nursery) walk LO up there, walk back then wait for the bus that runs every 30-40 mins, then walk the 15-20 min walk at the other end.  Same going home.  Would need to leave at 4 to get LO by about 6 and would get home about 7:30/8pm if you allow for traffic jams. 

So unfeasable, I NEED a car 3 days a week - well I could send LO to a local nursery but they are full, so I cant. 

I owe 4k still for this car, and that's just over what its worth so even if I sell it I can't buy another wee one that 'might' be cheaper to run.   

The Idea or living in a caravan in the field at my parents growing my own veg and having a sheep and a cow for meat each year is looking more and more attractive!


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## cptrayes (16 November 2011)

KristmasKatt said:



			Electric cars aren't the answer as we still need to generate the electric (not to mention the inefficiency and impracticality) we should be investing in more research into the hydrogen fuel cell as this would allow us to drive in a way that resembles current car use far more than using electricity.
		
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Generating electricity isn't really a problem. We have massive areas of desert in the world which could generate huge amounts of energy from the sun. We have energy in the wind and the sea that just needs harvesting. 

Managing an explosive fuel like hydrogen is a pretty tricky business though. Would the fuel cell you envisage generate electricity in the car? Because if not, the storage and transport of large amounts of hydrogen is completely impractical. My "consultant engineer" tells me that to delivery the same amount of energy as petrol/diesel, your average filling station would have to have 27 tanker deliveries an hour. If that's even a tenth of the truth, it can't be done, the petrol station would be constantly shut to take deliveries.

If your "in car" solution is possible, how many years are we away from a commercial application in a family saloon? Because electric cars are viable now and have been since the 1980's even though General Motors did their damndest to kill it off, acording to "Who killed the electric car?"


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## skint1 (16 November 2011)

Stencilface said:



			I would say - keep hold of your horses - we might need them for more mundane tasks in the years to come 

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haha, I often kid with the TB mare that she better learn to plow when Western civilisation collapses, she doesn't think I mean it...


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## Kat (16 November 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Generating electricity isn't really a problem. We have massive areas of desert in the world which could generate huge amounts of energy from the sun. We have energy in the wind and the sea that just needs harvesting. 

Managing an explosive fuel like hydrogen is a pretty tricky business though. Would the fuel cell you envisage generate electricity in the car? Because if not, the storage and transport of large amounts of hydrogen is completely impractical. My "consultant engineer" tells me that to delivery the same amount of energy as petrol/diesel, your average filling station would have to have 27 tanker deliveries an hour. If that's even a tenth of the truth, it can't be done, the petrol station would be constantly shut to take deliveries.

If your "in car" solution is possible, how many years are we away from a commercial application in a family saloon? Because electric cars are viable now and have been since the 1980's even though General Motors did their damndest to kill it off, acording to "Who killed the electric car?"
		
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I believe that hydrogen fuel cell cars have been built as prototypes and are viable but they don't have the support from the government grants that electric cars do and so are struggling to get off the ground. I'm no expert, I only know what I have seen on TV/read in magazines/heard on the radio but it seems a much more practical solution than an electric car than needs to be plugged in for 12 hours after about 20 miles. 

The trouble with electricity is that it is difficult and inefficient to store it or transport it, so it is all very well generating it in desert based solar farms or off shore wind farms but you lose a lot in transporting it and storing it. IMHO these schemes are great in areas that lend themselves to it, and in small scale schemes such as feed in tarriffs for solar panels on your roof or wind turbines in the garden but are not workable as the only energy source, they will always require back up from coal or nuclear or similar. If all cars go over to electricity then the requirements for electricity will go up massively, and we will struggle to meet the demand.


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## Kat (16 November 2011)

skint1 said:



			haha, I often kid with the TB mare that she better learn to plow when Western civilisation collapses, she doesn't think I mean it...  

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Since we sold our second car, DH keeps threatening our horse with being hitched up to a covered wagon. Perhaps he's ahead of the times! 

Mind you didn't Joe Grundy start driving Bartleby when he lost his driving licence, perhaps an example to us all!!!


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## cptrayes (16 November 2011)

KristmasKatt said:



			I believe that hydrogen fuel cell cars have been built as prototypes and are viable but they don't have the support from the government grants that electric cars do and so are struggling to get off the ground. I'm no expert, I only know what I have seen on TV/read in magazines/heard on the radio but it seems a much more practical solution than an electric car than needs to be plugged in for 12 hours after about 20 miles.
		
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The range is well over 20 miles of course 

The refuelling problem can be solved two ways. Immediately practical - have the batteries on a rack. Pull into a "refuelling station" and change the battery rack.  Very close to being a commercial proposition - liquid which carries electricity and can be pumped just like petrol. Both of these will work, one of them right now.

As far as the transport of electricity goes, there are far more effecient conductors currently  being developed from non-metals (someone thought outside the box!!) and we already ship electricity in from France, so why not Spain and Southern France both of which will soon be deserts with global warming going as it is. 

The prototype cars you mention, I think, have a massive hydrogen storage "balloon" on the roof of the car? If that's the one you are thinking of, that's the one that's totally impractical because you cannot deliver the fuel to the filling stations, the volume required to supply the same energy as oil based products is too high. 

One things for sure, it's an interesting world we live in right now!


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## Kat (16 November 2011)

cptrayes, the one I saw didn't have a balloon..... it looked like a normal car, i think Honda had developed it if I remember correctly.... 

I can't remember the precise range of the electric cars around at the moment but I remember thinking, "that wouldn't even get me to work without recharging" and at the time my commute was about 50miles. I guess changing batteries would solve this a bit though. 

I'm no expert.... I think at the heart of the problem is a need to change the way we live, and just reduce the travel we do.


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## Kat (16 November 2011)

It was the Honda Clarity I was thinking of. They are already in use in California. 

However Honda have apparently sadly reduced their investment in this as industry and governments seem to be more focussed on plug in electric cars.......


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## MerrySherryRider (16 November 2011)

Instead of punishing drivers by increasing tax, perhaps the government should look at the root causes of why demand for car usage has increased.
 Back in the 1960's it was common for families to live easily without a car. Many villages had a shop, post office and often a bank. Social life revolved around the church hall and local pub. Our village had a huge Co-op grocery lorry, a butcher, green grocer and library all which came weekly.
Children went to the small village school or used a school bus. More people worked locally and walked or cycled to work.
 Perhaps the government should look at reversing the policies implemented over the last generation and restore village life back to living communities instead of being places to sleep at while commuting outside for work and leisure.

For a size able number of the population, the government has made it extremely difficult to live reasonably without being a two car family.


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## EmmasMummy (16 November 2011)

horserider said:



			Instead of punishing drivers by increasing tax, perhaps the government should look at the root causes of why demand for car usage has increased.
 Back in the 1960's it was common for families to live easily without a car. Many villages had a shop, post office and often a bank. Social life revolved around the church hall and local pub. Our village had a huge Co-op grocery lorry, a butcher, green grocer and library all which came weekly.
Children went to the small village school or used a school bus. More people worked locally and walked or cycled to work.
 Perhaps the government should look at reversing the policies implemented over the last generation and restore village life back to living communities instead of being places to sleep at while commuting outside for work and leisure.

For a size able number of the population, the government has made it extremely difficult to live reasonably without being a two car family.
		
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I completely agree with this!  I would happily live in a small community, but the opportunities just are not there any more.


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## Spudlet (16 November 2011)

horserider said:



			Instead of punishing drivers by increasing tax, perhaps the government should look at the root causes of why demand for car usage has increased.
 Back in the 1960's it was common for families to live easily without a car. Many villages had a shop, post office and often a bank. Social life revolved around the church hall and local pub. Our village had a huge Co-op grocery lorry, a butcher, green grocer and library all which came weekly.
Children went to the small village school or used a school bus. More people worked locally and walked or cycled to work.
 Perhaps the government should look at reversing the policies implemented over the last generation and restore village life back to living communities instead of being places to sleep at while commuting outside for work and leisure.

For a size able number of the population, the government has made it extremely difficult to live reasonably without being a two car family.
		
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Very true! I agree that car useage needs to reduce but to do that, we need to look at ways of making that possible - such as improving public transport an awful lot and making it affordable again, giving businesses finanical incentives to allow working from home and improving rural broadband to make that possible, encouraging small shops and making those affordable too - even if there is a local shop, the chances are that the supermarket will be cheaper after all. Also, access to LOCAL schools, healthcare and other services is needed.

Simply pricing people off the roads without addressing these issues is simply a route to further depressing the economy, and is a big step backwards.


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## cptrayes (16 November 2011)

KristmasKatt said:



			It was the Honda Clarity I was thinking of. They are already in use in California. 

However Honda have apparently sadly reduced their investment in this as industry and governments seem to be more focussed on plug in electric cars.......
		
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Got it. Nice car. The bit that is missing is the figure of how much electricity it takes to crack the source "fuel" (water I think) into hydrogen and oxygen. I wonder if it is any less then getting the same miles from an electric car? I must ask my engineer when I next see him 

I agree with everyone above. I think it will happen, but there's a lot of pain to go through first before we go back to a more sustainable (and fair) way of living.


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## Kat (16 November 2011)

Spudlet said:



			Very true! I agree that car useage needs to reduce but to do that, we need to look at ways of making that possible - such as improving public transport an awful lot and making it affordable again, giving businesses finanical incentives to allow working from home and improving rural broadband to make that possible, encouraging small shops and making those affordable too - even if there is a local shop, the chances are that the supermarket will be cheaper after all. Also, access to LOCAL schools, healthcare and other services is needed.

Simply pricing people off the roads without addressing these issues is simply a route to further depressing the economy, and is a big step backwards.
		
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Exactly! 

When I was a child my parents had one car for the whole family. DH and I are trying to manage with one car at the moment (sold his old one, because we had bought a new one but the new one had to be sent back) it is a right pain even though he works mainly from home and we live on the edge of a market town. If we were in a more rural location it would be even worse, at least he can walk to the shops. Public transport doesn't work for me because I'm on an out of town business park.


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## perfect11s (16 November 2011)

horserider said:



			Instead of punishing drivers by increasing tax, perhaps the government should look at the root causes of why demand for car usage has increased.
 Back in the 1960's it was common for families to live easily without a car. Many villages had a shop, post office and often a bank. Social life revolved around the church hall and local pub. Our village had a huge Co-op grocery lorry, a butcher, green grocer and library all which came weekly.
Children went to the small village school or used a school bus. More people worked locally and walked or cycled to work.
 Perhaps the government should look at reversing the policies implemented over the last generation and restore village life back to living communities instead of being places to sleep at while commuting outside for work and leisure.

For a size able number of the population, the government has made it extremely difficult to live reasonably without being a two car family.
		
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I isnt the goverments fault!!! just people having the freedom to travel buy food where they want or is cheapest, travel futher for work, holidays etc that shut the local inificent or expensive services  once cars were avalible to the proletariat, Simple solution to the worlds problems isnt going to happen, we are too sucesfull and the human poplulation is growing at a frightening  rate  who is going to stop it, maybe there will be wars or plauge   but realy no politcian  or goverment apart from maybe china will stop it , they just love the junk science of climate warming or whatever suits at the time to call it and use it as an excuse for so called green taxes while doing nothing to help anyone but the few that benifit like wealthy landowners lilke camerons FIL ... stealing from our electric bills to give investors money for solar panels and windmills  but the answer is to lower the population then most of the problems and polution will be minimal...


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## dominobrown (16 November 2011)

I agree with you regarding population, and also the fact that the goverment suits wealthy landowners, and only China did do anything to reduce population. They prevented millions of people being born, and in turn helped prevent another major famine.

However... It is partly the goverments fault for getting rid of local services and shops. Britain has a tendency to support large corporations (such as Walmart(asda) or tescos) while making thing more and more difficult for small businesses. Also with public transport, it was sold of to private companies who decide its not in their finacial interests to run in rural areas, and try and make as much profit as possible.


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## trottingpole (18 November 2011)

After my sainsbury's shop yesterday, got 10p off a litre voucher.... quick, time to fill up the lorry!!


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