# Shocking! And this from the guy who opposes rollkur



## Booboos (3 August 2010)

I picked this up on the BD forum but it was so interesting I think it's worth replicating.

This is Dr Gerd H (yes, the author of modern vs traditional and great advocate anti-rollkur riding), riding a horse during one of his demos. The text (via Google translate) seems to suggest that this is his ACTUAL riding and not an attempt to demonstrate how others get it wrong with rollkur.

Words fail me:

http://www.dressur-studien.de/index.php/heuschmann-reitet-korrektur.html


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## rowy (3 August 2010)

:O 
there is actually a workshop/ lectures going on by him at vale view i was going to go to as im interested in body how it works etc (want to become a eq physio) and saw the poster of a horse in a rol-kur position on the poster and i was like hmmmmm maybe hes showing how not to do it? but if you say that was him riding!
i might go just out of interest to see what he says, it really surprises me. that poor fresian those pictures of it facing the wall


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## Slinkyunicorn (3 August 2010)

Will be interested to see what the translation is - if FrodoBeutlin or someone else can translate it would be useful. 

As you say Booboos if that is how he was riding it will be hugely disappointing. I have a place booked in a clinic with him in September.


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## TheMule (3 August 2010)

Hard to judge from a set of photos- I'd say the majority are fine and just getting the horse to flex more and move away from the leg.
I don't like the pics with the horse's nose on it's chest though it may have just been for a few strides as the 3 pics are taken in rapid succession (not that I think it's acceptable to have a horse that tight even for a moment)

At least he hasnt got spurs on and it's just in a snaffle.....


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## TheMule (3 August 2010)

rowy said:



			that poor fresian those pictures of it facing the wall 

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He was just leg yielding along the wall, nothing wrong with that, very useful for teaching sideways without much forwards


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## JoG (3 August 2010)

Ditto that it is hard to tell from photos and not videos....but I see a serious of photos of a stressed, tense, uncomfortable horse being forced to do things.  I personally don't like/agree with that sort of schooling


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## ruscara (3 August 2010)

TheMule said:



			At least he hasnt got spurs on and it's just in a snaffle.....
		
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My eyesight isn't very good, but to me it looks like some sort of gag.
And I must say, I did not like the amount of hand he is using, and the way he is sitting.  It looks horrendous, tbh, and the horse does not look at all happy about it.


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## Booboos (3 August 2010)

You can use Google translate and get a pretty accurate translation of what it says. OH (who is half German) just run through it with me and Google is pretty accurate.


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## VioletStripe (3 August 2010)

Admittedly the photos aren't at a brilliant angle but it does look quite rollkur-ish.. And it is a snaffle  xx


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## spookypony (3 August 2010)

According to the text, the photos were taken at a workshop during which he spend ca. 25 minutes working on a "problem" horse. The article's authors take issue with what they perceive as an attempt to accomplish in one session, using brute strength, what Dr H. himself has often acknowledged will generally take many sessions.

I would not get too wound up by this. These are moments captured during what looks like rather a large argument with the horse in question, and the choice and placement of these particular photos suggests a certain agenda on the part of the author. I do not believe that we are seeing enough of what happened to come to any particular conclusions.

I'm no fan of Rollkur, and if anything, I tend towards far too light a contact. Yet I'm sure that someone with a high-speed camera could capture moments where it looks like I'm yanking my pony's teeth out, as he tries to evade me by tucking his head somewhere it shouldn't be.

Tempest in a tea-pot, in my opinion!


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## Charlie_F_K (3 August 2010)

This does in fairness look like his is demonstrating a horse being soft through it's neck and possibly how to acheive it.. Many trainers, polo/crosse especially, divide the horse itself into: poll, neck, shoulder, ribcage, rear essentially. To gain full control of your horse is to make them soft through these areas and you do a lot of flexing with them all. Like literally taking the horses neck for instance and flexing it and the same with a downward action through the poll and pushing their rear over just like you would to ask them to move on the ground. Sorry this sounds confusing but if you want to know more or for me to clarify anything do ask! Anyway I think what it looks like this guy is doing is showing how to get these parts of the horse soft through flexing them and not forcing them. I went through months of flexing my horses neck on the ground like ten each way everyday because he was a bolter, and once we got him truly soft through his neck it now means that we can use a one- rein stop!


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## Rouletterose (3 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			I picked this up on the BD forum but it was so interesting I think it's worth replicating.

This is Dr Gerd H (yes, the author of modern vs traditional and great advocate anti-rollkur riding), riding a horse during one of his demos. The text (via Google translate) seems to suggest that this is his ACTUAL riding and not an attempt to demonstrate how others get it wrong with rollkur.

Words fail me:

http://www.dressur-studien.de/index.php/heuschmann-reitet-korrektur.html

Click to expand...

Am shocked! words fail me too, I've also read the discussion on the next page about him being asked not to ride, to which he responds that he is still going to, from what is written he's not doing his reputation much good.

I would like to see more....but one thing is for sure he is not Phillipe Karl and shouldn't try to ride like him, I am to say the least hugely disappointed.


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## eggs (3 August 2010)

Not attractive pictures but definitely not Rollkuer.

Looks to me as though he was trying to get the horse to flex.


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## Natch (3 August 2010)

Looks like an argument with a horse to me - not pretty but not enough to accuse him of anything.


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## Charlie_F_K (4 August 2010)

Yeah, looking again I really don't see the fuss, he is just showing it how to flex and yield. The one of him facing wall is a great way to work on lateral and can all be done on the ground with them too. Admittedly some of the angles of pics don't help but certainly no way rollkur.


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## Angua2 (4 August 2010)

Naturally said:



			Looks like an argument with a horse to me - not pretty but not enough to accuse him of anything.
		
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Have to say when I saw the pictures, I just saw a willful, argumentative evasive baggage and a rider that made the mistake of rising to the argument.  Can't say it is pretty, but nothing I haven't probably done at some time or another.


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## Rouletterose (4 August 2010)

Nobody has said he is riding in Rollkur, just that he is not riding well and is riding with force if you read the two following articles the FEI and FN have received a lot of complaints about his strong/forceful riding and he has been seen to actually irritate the horses he is riding.

He is not riding in Rollkur but he is not riding well either and when you are holding large clinics and people are paying they should be pleased with results and not issuing complaints.


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## Rowreach (4 August 2010)

Rouletterose said:



			he has been seen to actually irritate the horses he is riding.
		
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We've probably all done that.

I don't think you can make a judgement based on a series of photos and a commentary which perhaps is biased.  If I had the chance to go to a demo of his I would certainly do so, and make my mind up then.

Bear in mind that his book has done a huge amount for the welfare of dressage horses before you shoot him down.


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## Blackers (4 August 2010)

Unfortunately my German is not as good as it used to be, but it says that the horse would not accept any rein or leg aid. I don't think this is rollkur and as has been mentioned before, the three photos that show overbending were taken in quick succession, so don't express a general trend of the demonstration. I am sure most of us at some time have been overbending horses for a short time during a schooling session in an attempt to either make them accept the aids or getting them to flex more. A shame we don't see the end result.


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## Ranyhyn (4 August 2010)

Agreed what I see is one big fight there!  As for facing the wall, we all know horses can't see smack bang infront of them anyway and anyway, I don't think making a horse face a wall can in any way be cited as cruel or bad lol


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## Rouletterose (4 August 2010)

Rowreach said:



			We've probably all done that.

I don't think you can make a judgement based on a series of photos and a commentary which perhaps is biased.  If I had the chance to go to a demo of his I would certainly do so, and make my mind up then.

Bear in mind that his book has done a huge amount for the welfare of dressage horses before you shoot him down.
		
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I agree his book has done masses for horses and against Rollkur, he and PK are firm friends and have collaberated a lot, also with Anja Beran.....and yes me too, if there was a clinic local to me I would go and watch him with huge interest, but the people in the report condemming his riding and his ability as a rider are very experienced, and I know that he has never been thought of as a 'rider'.


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## fburton (4 August 2010)

Blackers said:



			A shame we don't see the end result.
		
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Such as Gerd enjoying a quiet sandwich with the horse? (Just joking!  )


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## Booboos (4 August 2010)

Also of interest :

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestr...dent-xenophon-society-replacing-dr-heuschmann


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## Blackers (4 August 2010)

Haha, yes and a nice cuppa to finish off the day


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## Booboos (4 August 2010)

From the BD forum:

"Copied from an open group on Facebook - this is an article from a German journalist, Claudia Sanders: 

'Gerd Heuschmann under criticism 

The Xenophon society&#8217;s first press release was a bit cryptical, announcing that Gerd Heuschmann, veterinarian and founding member of Xenophon, had stepped down as deputy chairman at his own request because of irreconcilable divergences in substance. Shortly afterwards, he resigned from the society altogether, thereby forestalling a possible exclusion procedure. At the origin of the fierce criticism of Heuschmann is his way of riding in his clinics. 

Xenophon chairman and Olympic Games winner Klaus Balkenhol is far from happy with the situation: 

&#8220;These past months, complaints about Gerd Heuschmann&#8217;s way of riding have been heaping up at the society." 

For some time now, the vet and book author Heuschmann has been offering clinics that include not only his lectures on the biomechanics of the horse, but also a practical riding session. Heuschmann, who also completed a training as &#8220;Bereiter FN&#8221; (assistant instructor of the German riding association), corrects the often badly ridden clinic horses himself, trying to &#8220;make them fit by riding&#8221;, in loose interpretation of the Xenophon motto &#8220;Good riding suffices&#8221;. 

To achieve this, he uses elements (but not the complete systematics) of the methods of Philippe Karl (high hand) and Anja Beran (yielding of the haunches on a circle) and tries them out on the clinic horses. 

&#8220;During these &#8216;corrective riding sessions&#8217; it came to ugly pictures, which gave rise to the complaints to our society,&#8221; Balkenhol says. 

In extensive one-on-one interviews with Gerd Heuschmann, the Xenophon chairman tried to dissuade him from riding the horses himself in his clinics &#8211; to no avail. Balkenhol went to see Heuschmann several times and had long talks with him: &#8220;Gerd achieved so much with his excellent lectures on biomechanics. It&#8217;s simply sad that he is now ruining all this with his way of riding. But unfortunately I couldn&#8217;t convince him.&#8221; 

As a result of these discussions, Heuschmann resigned from his office as deputy chairman at the end of May. 

Two weeks later, he is holding a clinic near Mainz. The vet climbs into the saddle of a Friesian horse which apparently is not permeable to the aids and accepts neither leg nor rein aids. Professional photographer Julia Rau documents the 25-minute ride with her camera and a large telephoto lens. Heuschmann does not let himself be bothered by her and &#8220;corrects&#8221; the Friesian. The picture series and the timestamp on the photographs show it very clearly: these are no accidental snapshots. 

When asked about the photographs by the editorial staff of the German horse magazine St. Georg, Heuschmann first showed contrition: &#8220;The error I probably made was to ride this horse in the first place,&#8221; he said meekly. 

But on the day of the publication of St. Georg, the vet declared via his website: &#8220;Since mid-June, I have been the focus of critical reporting. This witch-hunt has various motives, about which I don&#8217;t want to say anything here. I made no mistake and will therefore carry on my work unperturbed. For this reason, there is no need for any justification. Only the short advice that ugly situations can occur every day and under every rider when working with horses that need to be corrected.&#8221; 

Without making a fuss about it, the German FN cancelled the cooperation with Heuschmann completely, so that his clinics are not recognized as official further education courses for instructors any more. In future, he will thus probably not have his say any more, neither at the FN nor the FEI level. 

When asked for comment on the accusations and pictures by Dressur-Studien, he first invited us to a clinic &#8211; only to inform us just a few hours before it was due to start that taking pictures was forbidden and that he would not ride anyway. 
The questions we sent him per email remain unanswered so far, but maybe he simply had no time to reply: in early August he started a three-week &#8220;USA tour&#8221; on which he is offering clinics &#8211; with practical riding sessions."


The words "up his own *&^%" and "cash cow" seem to be floating around in my brain...


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## Rouletterose (4 August 2010)

Thanks for that Booboos, I was just going to say that Enlightened equitation are discussing this as well and Heather has the same copy of the letter above also she herself was at one of his clinics and was very disappointed.

I know he trained as a bereiter long ago but what do you think is happening here? the complaints as stated above are a lot and not just from that clinic you originally posted the photos from, I just think it's such a shame that a man held in such high regard for his veterinary/biomechanics work should suddenly do a lot of riding (I know he has ridden at clinics before) and he's obviously trying to emulate PK don't you think?


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## Booboos (4 August 2010)

My opinion is that this man is out to make a quick buck. 

Firstly, I don't think you can write a book explaining a scientific point to the public without having made the scientific point to the scientific community first. Dr H does not appear to have any academic articles in print (or at least none come up in Google scholar or are cited in major veterinary databases, or mentioned on Dr H's website). This just rings alarm bells, as the first task of the scientist is to have empirically verifiable research, that has been judged worthy of publication by his peers, is in the public domain and whose conclusions are open to refutation or replication. Even his books is published by a non-academic publisher, and persumably was not subjected to any kind of peer review before publication.

Secondly, I am deeply suspicious by anyone who is so passionate about their cause, they think the best way to effect change is to embark on a series of self-centred lectures. Is the money from these lectures put back into horse welfare and rider education? If it is, I take it all back. Otherwise this does seem like a case of self-promotion. This would seem to be born out by the fact that what might have started as a claim of veterinary knowledge, has now become a display of horsemanship. What reason is there to think that Dr H is a good horseman and one we should all learn from?

Bad riding is bad riding and if rollkur practitioners are guilty of bad riding to get medals, then this is as reprehensible an example of bad riding for self-promotion and profit.


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## lochpearl (4 August 2010)

the translation off the first website was:
We have long wondered whether we make these pictures online. Previously, we have investigated whether these pictures "individual cases" are one, an unfortunate "slip", a snapshot of the horse Horse of a correction, where it would be unfair to simply as the norm "to" publish them.

The bottom line, and the questions:
1st Gerd Heuschmann is obviously not  Rollkursupporters, although the images suggest that.
2nd Gerd Heuschmann rides obviously with a lot of physical strength. with powerful forces to ride a horse correction, in our view, only justified when it comes to the safety of the rider. That was not the case here.
3rd According to the understanding of horsemanship riding requires a correction is always more than one seminar. The white and says Gerd Heuschmann. Why does he then rises at his seminars in the saddle and tried first successes within this short time to achieve with pure power?
4th Everyone makes mistakes, everyone is evolving and that must also each be granted. We hope that we can tell immediately that Gerd Heuschmann waived correction to ride and the limits on what he means the past years has done outstanding in: educate riders how important relationships are biomechanical. 

The photographs shown below are from a professional photographer and journalist, during a seminar was taken by Gerd Heuschmann mid-June. The photographer moved the camera and open with large telephoto lens in the hall, Gerd Heuschmann let the pretty pictures of it. The illustrated Friese was ungentlemanly, accepted rein and leg aids barely. "The horse was rather Triebig and lazy," says photographer Julia Rau. The Reiteinheit lasts a good 25 minutes. 

Link to article with more information
Link to our network of fair-to-horse ", where the subject is discussed.

Please note: 
The photos are the exclusive copyright of Julia Rau, they may be privately or used for commercial purposes, unless the photographer has to declare in writing their agreement. 

We have set the images in chronological order according to their time code.
At the moment (4.8./10.30 Clock), we are trying to set the images so that you hacked the site is not ") and insert the time code - so please do not be surprised about renovation work)


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## charlie76 (4 August 2010)

funny how people don;t mind this too much but  were outraged by the rollkur pics/vids- weird eh how people have double standards.


 I am not bothered about it, without knowing the full story you can't judge.


If he was beating the horse round the head with a stick I could understand the outrage, however he wasn't.

Also, if some one takes a horse to some one to correct, whether its at a clinic or not, everyone watching is expecting the rider ( rightly or wrongly) to achieve a difference, sometimes its not always about ego but the pressure of the situation.

I don't feel I am in a postion to judge as , to be honest, unless you can hand or heart, say that you have never done something with a horse that you might regret the next day (be it on the floor or when ridden), then no one can really judge. Everyone makes mistakes.

ETA- having been around the equestrian world for a number of years, I can assure you that faced with a horse with such difficulties, many a top rider would do the same thing ( albeit behind closed doors) and if people think they wouldn't then they are disillusioned- not saying I agree with it but many owners want a quick fix.


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## Booboos (4 August 2010)

But this is a person who makes money by advocating training methods that do not use force and claims corrective schooling requires a long and slow approach, therefore HYPOCRITE! He is also a rider with no credits to his riding, e.g. no competitive success, no record of having been a great trainer and helping others, no record of remedial riding for difficult horses. 

Loads of people are bad riders, including first and foremost yours truly, but I don't publish books showing why others are bad riders, and then go on the lecture circuit and ride worse than they do.

On second thoughts, if people would like to pay to see me yank at my horse's mouth, Booboos Lecture/Demos are now available at a very reasonable cost at a venue near you!


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## martlin (4 August 2010)

not much different to CatwalkGate IMO.
Ego and money take over all sense.


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## spaniel (4 August 2010)

Mountain/molehill.

This is a horse which should have a naturally upright carriage who will not give to either leg or hand.  Now its not pretty but to be honest I cant see anything more than a determined man having a battle with an equally determined horse.

If you look at the pics in a biomechanical way its really not horrendous....maybe it LOOKS it,  but its not cruelty.

Id like to know how the horse is doing now....does anyone know or has nobody bothered to follow this up??


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## Booboos (4 August 2010)

So, just to get this right, the picture under the time stamp 16:53:26 shows a horse ridden without the use of force, with light aids and condusive to the development of its major muscles in accordance with correct biomechanical principles...

whereas this photo of rollkur attrocity shows a strong rider, using his whole body to lean back and haul at the horse's mouth, while pulling the head in, in a way at odds with the correct biomechanical principles

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...w0wTcg9DnCA&page=1&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0

OK, that makes a lot of sense now!


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## leogeorge (4 August 2010)

I agree with booboos and Martlin.

Shocking and total hypocricy.....again!!! Just one more "celebrity" who just can't seem to walk their talk


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## zefragile (4 August 2010)

If the rider were a Dutch dressage rider, I imagine the reaction to the pictures would be rather more harsh! He's a hypocrite.


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## FrodoBeutlin (4 August 2010)

There is a long article about this in this month's issue of St Georg - will translate it asap.


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## spaniel (4 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			So, just to get this right, the picture under the time stamp 16:53:26 shows a horse ridden without the use of force, with light aids and condusive to the development of its major muscles in accordance with correct biomechanical principles...

whereas this photo of rollkur attrocity shows a strong rider, using his whole body to lean back and haul at the horse's mouth, while pulling the head in, in a way at odds with the correct biomechanical principles

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...w0wTcg9DnCA&page=1&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0

OK, that makes a lot of sense now! 

Click to expand...

From what I can see in that frame he as flexing the horse right,  maybe my resolution is diferent to yours.  Im not saying its right but there are times when being gentle doesnt get through.  Im not saying beat your horse into submission but if you are sitting on something thats an habitual git you are going to end up using strength/force/ whatever you want to describe it as.

As I say,  Id like to have a follow up on this horse.

You cant compare this with Rolkur.  Biomechanicaly one is damaging....the other just looks harsh.

Just had a good look at the rolkur pic you refer too....looks alot less like hauling on the reins and more like hanging on for grim death!!


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## TheMule (4 August 2010)

He rode two of our horses at a relatively recent clinic and I was impressed, he rode them very nicely and got a lot out of them. But they are nicely trained, responsive horses who dont need remdial work, just an advancement in their training.


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## Rouletterose (4 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			But this is a person who makes money by advocating training methods that do not use force and claims corrective schooling requires a long and slow approach, therefore HYPOCRITE! He is also a rider with no credits to his riding, e.g. no competitive success, no record of having been a great trainer and helping others, no record of remedial riding for difficult horses. 

Loads of people are bad riders, including first and foremost yours truly, but I don't publish books showing why others are bad riders, and then go on the lecture circuit and ride worse than they do.

On second thoughts, if people would like to pay to see me yank at my horse's mouth, Booboos Lecture/Demos are now available at a very reasonable cost at a venue near you!
		
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Agree with you and if an olympic rider with the ability of Klaus B has personally been to see GH to ask him to stop riding at clinics because he is not riding as he preaches, then that's saying something, also they appear to have deemed it so bad that they are refusing to be associated with him at all!


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## GrumpyHero (4 August 2010)

my browser automatically translates to english ... this is what is ~roughly says in english




			We have long wondered whether we make these pictures online. Previously, we have investigated whether these pictures "individual cases" are one, an unfortunate "slip", a snapshot of the horse Horse of a correction, where it would be unfair to simply as the norm "to" publish them.

The bottom line, and the questions:
1st Gerd Heuschmann is obviously not Rollkursupporters, although the images suggest that.
2nd Gerd Heuschmann rides obviously with a lot of physical strength. with powerful forces to ride a horse correction, in our view, only justified when it comes to the safety of the rider. That was not the case here.
3rd According to the understanding of horsemanship riding requires a correction is always more than one seminar. The white and says Gerd Heuschmann. Why does he then rises at his seminars in the saddle and tried first successes within this short time to achieve with pure power?
4th Everyone makes mistakes, everyone is evolving and that must also each be granted. We hope that we can tell immediately that Gerd Heuschmann waived correction to ride and the limits on what he means the past years has done outstanding in: educate riders how important relationships are biomechanical.

The photos shown below are from a professional photographer and journalist, during a seminar was recorded by Gerd Heuschmann mid-June. The photographer moved the camera and open with large telephoto lens in the hall, Gerd Heuschmann let the pretty pictures of it. The illustrated Friese was ungentlemanly, accepted rein and leg aids barely. "The horse was rather Triebig and lazy," says photographer Julia Rau. The Reiteinheit lasts a good 25 minutes.
		
Click to expand...


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## chestnut cob (4 August 2010)

rowy said:



			that poor fresian those pictures of it facing the wall 

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Isn't he just LY along the wall??  Don't see anything wrong with that.

I haven't read many of the replies so I might be repeating what others have said.  GH is anti rollkur however surely he could use the argument that the rollkur proponents use when photos of their dodgy riding are published, which is that a photo is only a second in time and we don't know whether the horse momentarily dropped behind the bit (eg) but spent the remainder of the session working correctly.  I don't think all of the photos are terrible though they're disappointing, but photos *are* a moment in time.  A video would have been better.

The flexions are simply that, though it appears from the photos that he's using rather a lot of strength and rather more than I've been taught to do when I do them (the same flexions he is attempting, from what I can see).  It would be interesting to know how long the flexions were held for.  The difference for me between rollkur and flexions are that rollkur is forced and held for some length of time, whereas the flexions shouldn't be forced and shouldn't be held for more than a few seconds.  I do those side to side flexions, and the FDO flexion on the ground; the longest I would hold the FDO for is 30 seconds, and the S2S for a few seconds, then release by bringing back to the front with a FDO.  The article says the horse was "ungentlemanly" and "didn't accept the reins or leg aids".  Mine was the same when I started flexion work but I've never needed to use the amount of force GH seems to be using in the photos.  If the horse is as bad as the article suggests then I think I'd have preferred to see him start them from the ground rather than ridden.  The flexions don't *look* correct from the photos either, the horse is just twisting at the poll from what I can see rather than bending the base of his neck.  I think he's also trying to use some of Phillipe Karl's methods judging by where he's holding his hands.

As I say, photos are only a moment in time but I was taught that the sorts of methods PK uses are suitable for more advanced horses (the way he holds his hands, as GH I think is attempting to do) but not for a horse which needs the "correction" this article suggests of the Fresian.  It doesn't look strong enough to be working how he's asking it to either.

I wonder whether he has got a bit carried away on his crusade?  If you click the link in the posted article, you can get to the full article which states GH has had to retire from the Xenophon Society who have apparently received a lot of complaints about his riding recently...

Disappointing.


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## chestnut cob (4 August 2010)

spookypony said:



			According to the text, the photos were taken at a workshop during which he spend ca. 25 minutes working on a "problem" horse. The article's authors take issue with what they perceive as an attempt to accomplish in one session, using brute strength, what Dr H. himself has often acknowledged will generally take many sessions.
		
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But surely he's going against everything he stands for by apparently trying to achieve all of this on a horse he would usually acknowledge needs more time, which defeats the object?  And he appears to be using brute strength which is unacceptable, whether he's riding in a snaffle or a crank and a double.  If all of this is true then it's very disappointing.  I have lessons with a classical instructor and I would walk out of a lesson if she expected me to work my horse this way.  My horse was very weak and disinterested in work when I started my classical lessons - working him the way GH appears to be in the pics would have resulted in GH being summarily deposited on the floor!  Thanks to 8 months of building it up slowly, and never ever needing to use the sort of force apparent on those pics, I now have a much stronger horse who *wants* to work.  And not once in all of the classical lessons have I been expected to work my horse like those pics.

The problem with this is that GH has put his head above the parapet and is preaching to the rest of the equestrian world about "classical dressage", telling us all how it should be done so he should ensure he is unimpeachable.  It's like someone telling us all not to do drugs then we find out they're a cocaine addict...


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## chestnut cob (4 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			But this is a person who makes money by advocating training methods that do not use force and claims corrective schooling requires a long and slow approach, therefore HYPOCRITE! He is also a rider with no credits to his riding, e.g. no competitive success, no record of having been a great trainer and helping others, no record of remedial riding for difficult horses. 

Loads of people are bad riders, including first and foremost yours truly, but I don't publish books showing why others are bad riders, and then go on the lecture circuit and ride worse than they do.
		
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^^ This ^^

I personally think his book makes a lot of sense but I'd rather see PK and Anja Beran ride than GH.  If corrective schooling takes time then he should demonstrate this, not try to achieve months worth of schooling in 25 mins.  I wonder whether he has gone down the route of the Parellis and Monty Roberts now... they believe so much in their own self importance that they think they can preach to the rest of world how they should spend months working on something, yet they can demonstrate it in a 30 min demo like a magic trick.

Sad and disappointing.


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## Slinkyunicorn (4 August 2010)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			There is a long article about this in this month's issue of St Georg - will translate it asap.
		
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Thanks Frodo - look forward to reading that.


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## MotherOfChickens (4 August 2010)

chestnut cob said:



			^^ This ^^

I personally think his book makes a lot of sense but I'd rather see PK and Anja Beran ride than GH.  If corrective schooling takes time then he should demonstrate this, not try to achieve months worth of schooling in 25 mins.  I wonder whether he has gone down the route of the Parellis and Monty Roberts now... they believe so much in their own self importance that they think they can preach to the rest of world how they should spend months working on something, yet they can demonstrate it in a 30 min demo like a magic trick.

Sad and disappointing.
		
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I agree CC. rather saddening but his riding skills have never been the equal of his biomechanics knowledge.
video would be better. Last I heard he rather publicly decried PK and the French school so am not sure what he's doing there.


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## Booboos (4 August 2010)

For the people who think the photos are only a moment in time, they are time stamped so really they are frequent moments in time, pretty much one every minute!

Just out of interest, do people practice LY facing a wall? I was always taught that impulsion must be maintained and it is a "one step sideways, one step forward" movement. Wouldn't practicing it in a way that stops the horse from moving forwards at all defeat the purpose? Also, how do you come out of the movement if you are facing a wall? (again I have been taught that the transition out of the movement should be as precise and clear as the transition into it, so I tend to always ask for more impulsion out of LY, half-pass, shoulder in).


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## Rouletterose (4 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			For the people who think the photos are only a moment in time, they are time stamped so really they are frequent moments in time, pretty much one every minute!

Just out of interest, do people practice LY facing a wall? I was always taught that impulsion must be maintained and it is a "one step sideways, one step forward" movement. Wouldn't practicing it in a way that stops the horse from moving forwards at all defeat the purpose? Also, how do you come out of the movement if you are facing a wall? (again I have been taught that the transition out of the movement should be as precise and clear as the transition into it, so I tend to always ask for more impulsion out of LY, half-pass, shoulder in).
		
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Agree Booboos I think he's probably rammed the horse to the wall as it was tanking off with him in previous pics.

A Fresian has such a very high set-on head and neck, particularily the neck this was not the way to treat this horse in my opinion, and before anyone asks yes I have ridden a Fresian and they are very different!


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## chestnut cob (4 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			For the people who think the photos are only a moment in time, they are time stamped so really they are frequent moments in time, pretty much one every minute!
		
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Hey, I only said you could use the same argument that always gets dragged up in these discussions...that a photo is only a moment in time.  You *can* argue that.  I never said that was my opinion, just that GH could use that defence.  I did in fact go on to say that I don't like what I see in those photos and that I am saddened and disappointed by them, having been a supporter of GH in the past.

I can see what he is trying to achieve but I think he's going about it the wrong way, FWIW.  He may not be practising rollkur but those flexions don't look correct to me.  There are some pics of PK doing the same flexions in his book but they don't look like that and he doesn't have the tension in his body and face that GH seems to have (surely anyone can see that?).  If he has decried the French school and PK then I am even more bewildered because I can't understand why he would be attempting Baucher flexions if he doesn't believe in them!


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## Booboos (4 August 2010)

chestnut cob said:



			Hey, I only said you could use the same argument that always gets dragged up in these discussions...that a photo is only a moment in time.  You *can* argue that.  I never said that was my opinion, just that GH could use that defence.  I did in fact go on to say that I don't like what I see in those photos and that I am saddened and disappointed by them, having been a supporter of GH in the past.

I can see what he is trying to achieve but I think he's going about it the wrong way, FWIW.  He may not be practising rollkur but those flexions don't look correct to me.  There are some pics of PK doing the same flexions in his book but they don't look like that and he doesn't have the tension in his body and face that GH seems to have (surely anyone can see that?).  If he has decried the French school and PK then I am even more bewildered because I can't understand why he would be attempting Baucher flexions if he doesn't believe in them!
		
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Sorry I meant that to be QR not reply to you, as a couple of people seem to have suggested that the photo is an instant in time that does not give a good picture. Totally agree with you that the argument works both ways, especially if it is one, isolated photo.


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## TheMule (4 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			Just out of interest, do people practice LY facing a wall? I was always taught that impulsion must be maintained and it is a "one step sideways, one step forward" movement. Wouldn't practicing it in a way that stops the horse from moving forwards at all defeat the purpose? Also, how do you come out of the movement if you are facing a wall? (again I have been taught that the transition out of the movement should be as precise and clear as the transition into it, so I tend to always ask for more impulsion out of LY, half-pass, shoulder in).
		
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Yes, especially when teaching a horse who doesnt understand how to move sideways away from the leg it's incredibly useful. I teach my baby horses how to leg yield using this method. Sure, it's not a test movement but it has benefits


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## jaypeebee (4 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			For the people who think the photos are only a moment in time, they are time stamped so really they are frequent moments in time, pretty much one every minute!
		
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Actually the photos of the alleged rollkur start at 16.53.26 and end at 16.53.50 so he did this for less than 25 seconds.  A fleeting moment in time.




			Just out of interest, do people practice LY facing a wall?
		
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Yes.


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## Booboos (4 August 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			Actually the photos of the alleged rollkur start at 16.53.26 and end at 16.53.50 so he did this for less than 25 seconds.  A fleeting moment in time.


Yes.
		
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I don;t think this is rollkur, as it is far too forceful and has no impulsion from behind whatsoever. My problem is with all the photos in this sequence which show a rider using far too much strength in his arms and upper body, his position is entirely distorted, his upper body behind the vertical, his legs are all over the place, etc. when I would expect a young horse to be encouraged to work from behind and forget about the outline for now (if the horse is not young, but has problems accepting the leg, again I would expect the trainer to forget about the front end and just work on getting the horse moving forwards from the leg in a good rhythm).

Would you care to expand on that?


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## Charlie_F_K (4 August 2010)

Argh! This horse is not being asked to work in an outline!! If you look at the angle of the picture the neck is being flexed sideways not through it's poll! I really don't understand how people don't get what he is doing?? LY itself you would practise going forwards yes, of course. But to get a horse yielding from pressure in general of course you can do it facing a wall to help. This is only like pushing its hind over when on the ground and getting it's shoulder to follow. Maybe parts of his body are everywhere, and it's not what you would see from general riding, but if you are trying to show a horse through something then surely you have to exaggerate your movements? Yes?


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## spaniel (4 August 2010)

Thank you!   Im glad someone else is seeing what Im seeing!


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## Charlie_F_K (4 August 2010)

If that is in response to me then.. thank god for that! 
Was starting to think I was going mad


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## ISHmad (4 August 2010)

Do as I say not as I do springs to mind...


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## Chamfrom (4 August 2010)

Sorry if this has already been translated, just not got time to search through everything.
My (German) husband has done a direct translation - so its very accurate..... here goes.... hope its of some use! ;-)

Gerd Heuschmann riding a horse in need of correction

We have deliberated for a long time whether to put these pictures on the web. Before we did, we conducted research to determine whether these pictures were an isolated case, an unlucky mistake, or a snapshot taken out of context, whilst riding a difficult horse that needs correction, which would simply be unfair if we gave the impression that this is normal for him.



The conclusions we came to are:
1. Gerd Heuschmann is  as is known  opposed to Rollkur, even if these photos suggest differently
2. Gerd Heuschmann obviously rides using a lot of physical strength. Riding a horse in need of correction by the use of excessive physical strength is in our opinion only justified when the safety of the rider is compromised / at risk. This was clearly not the case here.
3. Under the principles of humane riding, correcting a difficult horse always takes more than one schooling session. Mr Heuschmann knows as much, and regularly states as much himself. So why does he mount horses in his seminars and attempts to achieve results within short timespans by brute force?

4. Everybody makes mistakes. Everybody moves on and develops with experience. That is every persons prerogative, and we grant that. Which is why we hope to be able to report soon that Gerd Heuschmann does not ride in a corrective function anymore and limits himself to what he has done over the past years so successfully: which is instructing riders in the importance of biomechanical aspects of riding.



The photos below were taken by a professional photographer and journalist during a seminar held by Gerd Heuschmann mid June. The photographer was moving openly around the hall, with a huge telephoto lens attached to her camera. Gerd Heuschmann knew that she was there and showed no objection or distraction by her presence. The Friesian in the pictures was obstructive, not responding to and objecting to seat and leg aids. The photographer Julia Rau said The horse was obtuse and lazy. The lesson documented took around 25 minutes.



In the original webpage, there is a link to a discussion forum about this article at this point.



Please note: 
This photo is subject to copyright laws and is sole property of Julia Rau. These photos must not be used either privately or commercially unless with the express permission of Julia Rau. We have sorted the photos chronologically by their time stamps.


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## LizScott (4 August 2010)

Charlie_F_K said:



			Argh! This horse is not being asked to work in an outline!! If you look at the angle of the picture the neck is being flexed sideways not through it's poll! I really don't understand how people don't get what he is doing?? LY itself you would practise going forwards yes, of course. But to get a horse yielding from pressure in general of course you can do it facing a wall to help. This is only like pushing its hind over when on the ground and getting it's shoulder to follow. Maybe parts of his body are everywhere, and it's not what you would see from general riding, but if you are trying to show a horse through something then surely you have to exaggerate your movements? Yes?
		
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Yes I get it - and don't understand the problem either  Yes it would be lovely if horses instantly understood what we meant and we could sit on them looking elegant and still BUT in reality we have to let them know what we want and sometimes this means exagerating movements so that eventually aids can be subtle. I don't think the horse is being forced by bodyweight etc, in fact I think he is being very correct in his position. Just my opinion


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## Booboos (4 August 2010)

Charlie_F_K said:



			Argh! This horse is not being asked to work in an outline!! If you look at the angle of the picture the neck is being flexed sideways not through it's poll! I really don't understand how people don't get what he is doing?? LY itself you would practise going forwards yes, of course. But to get a horse yielding from pressure in general of course you can do it facing a wall to help. This is only like pushing its hind over when on the ground and getting it's shoulder to follow. Maybe parts of his body are everywhere, and it's not what you would see from general riding, but if you are trying to show a horse through something then surely you have to exaggerate your movements? Yes?
		
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No, effective riding should appear effortless. I've never seen Cark Hester for example throw himself about like that and he was ridden horses that were by anyone's standard hot and challenging.

I think we are talking about different things though as I would not do the LY with quarters leading, I was always taught shoulders should be leading in LY and half-pass.


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## Holly Hocks (4 August 2010)

chestnut cob said:



			But surely he's going against everything he stands for by apparently trying to achieve all of this on a horse he would usually acknowledge needs more time, which defeats the object?  And he appears to be using brute strength which is unacceptable, whether he's riding in a snaffle or a crank and a double.  If all of this is true then it's very disappointing.  I have lessons with a classical instructor and I would walk out of a lesson if she expected me to work my horse this way.  My horse was very weak and disinterested in work when I started my classical lessons - working him the way GH appears to be in the pics would have resulted in GH being summarily deposited on the floor!  Thanks to 8 months of building it up slowly, and never ever needing to use the sort of force apparent on those pics, I now have a much stronger horse who *wants* to work.  And not once in all of the classical lessons have I been expected to work my horse like those pics.

The problem with this is that GH has put his head above the parapet and is preaching to the rest of the equestrian world about "classical dressage", telling us all how it should be done so he should ensure he is unimpeachable.  It's like someone telling us all not to do drugs then we find out they're a cocaine addict...
		
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I've also had some lessons from a classical instructor.  I previously rode my uncooperative horse too low and behind the bit.  It's only in the last couple of years of having lessons with this instructor that I now have a cooperative horse who can go out and win - no stress, no problems and he is thoroughly enjoying himself.  I have also been taught that the poll should be the highest point - not the middle of the neck....I don't know enough, but I know that I don't like those photos....


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## PapaFrita (4 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			I don;t think this is rollkur, as it is far too forceful and has no impulsion from behind whatsoever.
		
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My RI used to say that the walk is the only pace that does not have any impulsion. I'm happy to have that refuted though 
I think he just looks a bit cack-handed and generally not up to the standards he advocates... not a stoning offence, but not great either. 
I'm just a SJer so my experience counts pretty much for ****** all, but we flex horses all over the place to keep them soft in their mouths and prevent them 'setting' themselves. We do it with no style at all as well.... 
I agree that what the back end is doing is far more important than what the front end is doing. 
Hmmm.. I think I'll get one of my german students to translate for me 

ETS: I see there has already been a translation.

PS: It is my understanding that dressage horses (and honestly I didn't make this up) are often very stiff through the neck and are not encouraged to flex sideways at all.... as a SJer I do not see Gert's riding as all unusual although he's not terribly subtle. Once again, happy to be corrected


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## Charlie_F_K (4 August 2010)

But he is not leg yielding as a dressage movement, just gaining control of individual parts of the horses body! And Carl Hester is one of the best riders I can name, but have you seen him ride a very young potential dressage horse in the process of being broken, or have you seen him ride already on their way slightly older horses? And if you are going to be pedantic and say "still learning", spurs will be worn, which they aren't in these pics, and they will have had yielding/movement work done on the ground.


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## Charlie_F_K (4 August 2010)

Thoroughly agree with above, and cannot believe the amount of people who think that a horse working through it's poll (a.k.a 'outline') is very important, but a horse soft and flexible through it's neck/shoulders/rear laterally is not.


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## chestnut cob (4 August 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			My RI used to say that the walk is the only pace that does not have any impulsion. I'm happy to have that refuted though 
I think he just looks a bit cack-handed and generally not up to the standards he advocates... not a stoning offence, but not great either. 
I'm just a SJer so my experience counts pretty much for ****** all, but we flex horses all over the place to keep them soft in their mouths and prevent them 'setting' themselves. We do it with no style at all as well.... 
I agree that what the back end is doing is far more important than what the front end is doing. 
Hmmm.. I think I'll get one of my german students to translate for me 

ETS: I see there has already been a translation.

PS: It is my understanding that dressage horses (and honestly I didn't make this up) are often very stiff through the neck and are not encouraged to flex sideways at all.... as a SJer I do not see Gert's riding as all unusual although he's not terribly subtle. Once again, happy to be corrected
		
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I don't think it's a back end vs front end argument.  What GH is trying to do are Baucher flexions (or so it appears from the pics), which are all about loosening and suppling the neck to remove any resistance there.  So I don't have a problem with him having a back end and front end that don't match because I think he's trying to work different parts of the horse individually.

None of it is rollkur, it's totally different because he's trying to get lateral flexion rather than for the horse to "give its back" (which is why I think rollkur is supposed to be about?).  It's just a shame that he's going about it so forcefully.  If the horse in the pics is so ignorant to the aids then he shouldn't have tried to "fix" it in a public demo in 30 minutes which appears to have resulted in a confrontation.

Maybe I am very wrong in my view of it all but it just looks very aggressive, which is not the image GH has tried to portray.  He talks about training horses sympathetically but I don't see that in those pics, I see someone who is fighting with his horse.


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## PapaFrita (4 August 2010)

It appears we are in agreement then. Except you make more sense than I do


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## chestnut cob (4 August 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			It appears we are in agreement then. Except you make more sense than I do 

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I must be having a moment of clarity today then, during the rest of my madness! :w:

How's the little cigar doing now PF?  Presumably not so little?!


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## PapaFrita (4 August 2010)

chestnut cob said:



			I must be having a moment of clarity today then, during the rest of my madness! :w:

How's the little cigar doing now PF?  Presumably not so little?!
		
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LOL  That must be it 
The LC is very well, and PF is doing well after a period of looking a bit ropey. Miss them both LOADS!!


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## amandaco2 (4 August 2010)

dont like the stills but a vid would give a better idea what was actually happening.....
still, doesnt look very good


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## Booboos (5 August 2010)

I am rapidly becoming more confused than ever. A dressage horse should have a supple neck (how can you do lateral movements without a supple neck and bend through the body otherwise?), but I can't quite see why this is the way to achieve that.

I was not familiar with Baucher flexions, but what I read about them now is not particularly encouraging. They are defined as coiling the neck toward the torse, flexing it laterally and towards the neck (which, to my mind, is the front end of rollkur without the impulsion), and his book also mentions 'jaw flexions', forcing the horse to yield to the bit by opening his mouth and yielding at the poll (which he calls 'ramener') (again, can't quite see the difference from the front end of the horse in rollkur). Other objectionable sounding practices in Baucher's book include applying both forward and stopping aids at the same time, until the horse is dominated and submits.

Commentators actually describe his methods as similar to rollkur, e.g. "His method of severe bending of the horse's neck towards his chest and torso has also has had great criticism, many people believing that it is exceptionally harsh and uncomfortable for the animal. It is still employed today, however, with the methods of rollkur showing great similarities." Wikipedia For a nice collection of what his contemporaries thought of his see here: http://www.angelfire.com/sports/dressage/pages/Karl.html The general concensus is that horses trained by B lacked all impulsion.

It seems to me then that the conclusion "Dr H is riding fine because he was only doing Baucher flexions" is totally unacceptable, given both what Baucher advocated in himself and what Dr H has said in the past about the use of force and the importance of power coming from behind. Baucher's riding the horse "front to back" with the hands seems completely at odds with Dr H's Tug of War suggestions on the importance of riding "back to front".

PF: I always though the walk should have as much impulsion as any other gait. Without impulsion how can one have a collected walk, a walk to canter transition, etc.


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## MotherOfChickens (5 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			I was not familiar with Baucher flexions, but what I read about them now is not particularly encouraging. They are defined as coiling the neck toward the torse, flexing it laterally and towards the neck (which, to my mind, is the front end of rollkur without the impulsion), and his book also mentions 'jaw flexions', forcing the horse to yield to the bit by opening his mouth and yielding at the poll (which he calls 'ramener') (again, can't quite see the difference from the front end of the horse in rollkur). Other objectionable sounding practices in Baucher's book include applying both forward and stopping aids at the same time, until the horse is dominated and submits.

.
		
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Baucher flexions do not involve force _whatsoever_ and they are drastically misunderstood by most-in fact you need to read all of Baucher as he went through different methods before defining one-I recommend Racinet Explains Baucher for those new to it. Please do not criticise a method from skim-reading on book. Philippe Karl (with whom GH rather spectacularly fell out with), Henriquet, Anja Beren all use flexions to a greater or lesser extent so please look to those sources if you are interested.Whatever GH was doing in those pictures, they arent Baucher flexions as I understand them. 

The French school and German classical schools can be differentiated by the phrases 'balance before movement' and 'movement before balance' respectively. If you read up they are actually not so very different as they both have the same aims and _good_ French riding and _good_ German riding are both fantastic to watch. Many roads to Rome and all that.


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## Booboos (5 August 2010)

Yes, you are right I am not familiar with his work, but these are terms and explanations from his own work so they can't be entirely wrong. I understand there is an earlier version of his theory which is much more forceful than the later, but it's not my fault he changed his mind and repudiated himself!

Completely agree with many roads to Rome, but what we have here is many roads to Rome, some more to Athens and a few to Istanbul, while some of the roads are tarmac and others have nails and glass on them!


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## chestnut cob (5 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			Yes, you are right I am not familiar with his work, but these are terms and explanations from his own work so they can't be entirely wrong. I understand there is an earlier version of his theory which is much more forceful than the later, but it's not my fault he changed his mind and repudiated himself!

Completely agree with many roads to Rome, but what we have here is many roads to Rome, some more to Athens and a few to Istanbul, while some of the roads are tarmac and others have nails and glass on them! 

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Booboos, please read some of Philippe Karl's work.  Whilst he's a bit evangelical for my taste, he is a superb rider and he explains the flexions well.


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## MotherOfChickens (5 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			Yes, you are right I am not familiar with his work, but these are terms and explanations from his own work so they can't be entirely wrong. I understand there is an earlier version of his theory which is much more forceful than the later, but it's not my fault he changed his mind and repudiated himself!
		
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probably better if you start simple if you can't understand his work-as I said, Racinet is by far the best and I repeat, in properly executed Baucher flexions there is no force but do your own research, you may learn something 

and most great horsemen/women experiment with different methods surely? or is there one big doctrine I am missing that always works all of the time? surely individual horses merit training for their individual needs-not all flexions are needed on all horses, not all horses need rollkur (well, except the ones in top competition  )


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## Booboos (5 August 2010)

peteralfred said:



			probably better if you start simple if you can't understand his work-as I said, Racinet is by far the best and I repeat, in properly executed Baucher flexions there is no force but do your own research, you may learn something 

and most great horsemen/women experiment with different methods surely? or is there one big doctrine I am missing that always works all of the time? surely individual horses merit training for their individual needs-not all flexions are needed on all horses, not all horses need rollkur (well, except the ones in top competition  )
		
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I don't think I said I don't 'understand' his work, I said I am not 'familiar' with it. Lack of understanding implies lack of any comprehension, lack of familiarity implies lack of in-depth/considerable comprehension.

Feel free to help me learn anytime: are you suggesting that none of Baucher's flexions involve force,  either his earlier work or his later work? Or are you referring to his later work only?

I don't think I have ever suggested that there is one training doctrine, or suggested what it might be or suggested that anyone follow my ideas as I don't have any. All I have done is point out when people say things that lack any support, when they have circular or contradictory arguments, or when they practice other than they themselves preach. Thus, in the road analogy, by mentioning Athens and Instanbul I suggested that there is conflict over what the final result should be, e.g. between the way of going of a classically trained Iberian horse and that of a modern trained WB, and by suggesting that some roads are made of nails and glass, I meant that some people use unacceptable means to get to their ends.


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## Booboos (5 August 2010)

chestnut cob said:



			Booboos, please read some of Philippe Karl's work.  Whilst he's a bit evangelical for my taste, he is a superb rider and he explains the flexions well.
		
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Yes, will have to get round to that. Funnily enough PK lives relatively close to where we're moving to in France, but he won't take on pupils other than on this intensive two year course which seems to involve considerable time commitment and which he doesn't seem to offer in France (at least not last time I looked at his website).

I did read Anja Beran following a recommendation on here (really sorry can't remember who it was who suggested it!). I found her book a bit odd. A lot of it was oddly basic, e.g. what to wear when riding, there was almost no theory and the practical advice tended to be rather descriptive, e.g. the half-pass tells you what the half-pass is but not how to teach a horse to do it, or how to correct mistakes or what the most common mistakes might be. Photos were lovely though, even if the book was 70% photos 30% text! Funnily enough my edition has notes/commentary by Dr H!!!


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## zefragile (5 August 2010)

I wonder what the reation would be to the pictures if the rider was
a) Anky van Grunsven
b) Patrik Kittel
c) Linda Parelli


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## chestnut cob (5 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			Yes, will have to get round to that. Funnily enough PK lives relatively close to where we're moving to in France, but he won't take on pupils other than on this intensive two year course which seems to involve considerable time commitment and which he doesn't seem to offer in France (at least not last time I looked at his website).

I did read Anja Beran following a recommendation on here (really sorry can't remember who it was who suggested it!). I found her book a bit odd. A lot of it was oddly basic, e.g. what to wear when riding, there was almost no theory and the practical advice tended to be rather descriptive, e.g. the half-pass tells you what the half-pass is but not how to teach a horse to do it, or how to correct mistakes or what the most common mistakes might be. Photos were lovely though, even if the book was 70% photos 30% text! Funnily enough my edition has notes/commentary by Dr H!!!
		
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I've never read any of AB's work but have seen (one of?) her DVD and I liked what I saw.  The DVD was very like the book you mention though - some lovely video of her riding, explaining what she is doing and why, but I don't recall there being and "how to" in there.  I'd have preferred to have seen a video of GH rather than a few pics taken at bad moments, as it would have been interesting to have looked at the clinic as a whole instead of simply what the photographer wanted us to see.

For my part, I would rather read and watch as many people's work as possible and take what works for my horse.  I wasn't convinced about the flexions initially but they're actually very like physio stretches - my physio does some similar stuff with my horse when she comes out, just without the bit.  She came to my horse in Nov then again last month and was very pleased with how much more supple he had become.  I only school once a week, plus a bit on hacks (and jump once a week), but I do flexions every single day and I attribute the change in him to those.


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## MotherOfChickens (5 August 2010)

zefragile said:



			I wonder what the reation would be to the pictures if the rider was
a) Anky van Grunsven
b) Patrik Kittel
c) Linda Parelli
		
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the same as the reaction I had to GH, I dont like what I see. I have never seen anything to make me rate his riding and now it seems as though ego has won through. It's quite sad.


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## MotherOfChickens (5 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			I don't think I said I don't 'understand' his work, I said I am not 'familiar' with it. Lack of understanding implies lack of any comprehension, lack of familiarity implies lack of in-depth/considerable comprehension.
		
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yes, I know, what I write is deliberate. 

yes some means of travel are unnacceptable-and some of those that are what claim to be 'classical' and some are from the competitive route. The individual has to make up their own mind. what I object to on this thread is a method of training being 'dissed' when that method of training doesnt appear to have been even used in this case. I see is a bloke pulling a horse around and being heavy handed. of course, flexions can be used incorrectly, there's a rather infamous US trainer who uses them and he's rubbish  

anyway, I have pointed you towards some very good sources of information that can explain Baucher much, much better than I (can I say Racinet again?!). and I think that PK takes in working pupils in Franc eif you are interested..


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## brighteyes (5 August 2010)

Angua2 said:



			Have to say when I saw the pictures, I just saw a willful, argumentative evasive baggage and a rider that made the mistake of rising to the argument.  ...

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^^^What I think.  Honestly, people.  We have a pony who would rather duck behind the contact than work from behind and go into it.  In order to keep the contact up, you sometimes have to follow the head back (or he's got you how he wants) and a photo could look like a pull into a horrible overbent outline.  A couple of nudges later and he's only too happy to get comfy and 'out' again.  Usually this is in the warming-up phase and we are establishing that effort _will_ be made!  He has all the physical requirements but a rather idle nature.  This horse looks similar - it _could_ do, but at that moment isn't.

You would need to see the whole thing, unexpurgated, on video to make an informed comment.  Like the Parelli Catwalk nonsense.


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## Booboos (5 August 2010)

peteralfred said:



			yes, I know, what I write is deliberate.
		
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Since you deliberately misquoted me I am not sure what to reply to this.



peteralfred said:



			yes some means of travel are unnacceptable-and some of those that are what claim to be 'classical' and some are from the competitive route. The individual has to make up their own mind. what I object to on this thread is a method of training being 'dissed' when that method of training doesnt appear to have been even used in this case. I see is a bloke pulling a horse around and being heavy handed. of course, flexions can be used incorrectly, there's a rather infamous US trainer who uses them and he's rubbish 

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Again, feel free to explain to everyone. There are many interested people on this forum, if you think something has been misrepresented I am sure we would all be interested in learning better.



peteralfred said:



			anyway, I have pointed you towards some very good sources of information that can explain Baucher much, much better than I (can I say Racinet again?!). and I think that PK takes in working pupils in Franc eif you are interested..
		
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I don't think you should underestimate yourself that much, give it a go, you might do OK. You seem to be very clear in your knowledge, so explaining it to others might not be as tough as you think.

Alas horses are a hobby for me I couldn't afford to drop my job to be a working pupil.


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## TallyHo123 (5 August 2010)

Photos can lie, although imo the horse doesn't look relaxed, soft, supple etc. which is what i like to try and achieve with any horse.
Just my opinion though


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## Booboos (5 August 2010)

sussexbythesea said:



			I can't argue with Booboos because she can wipe the floor with anyone when it comes to scientific arguments - this is a compliment by the way.
		
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 Spoilsport!!!!!!!!!!!   What would I do with myself if no one argued with me?!!!!  I might have to go do some work instead 

But seriously, I agree with everything you said. I also think there is a place for all kinds of outlines, including flexions, and different things work on different horses. 

What did annoy me is having Dr H make loads of money selling a book which was all about what is wrong with the use of force, hyperflexion, bad riding and quick results and then be photographed doing exactly what he condemned. The ability to write a book where you describe the anatomy of a horse and make some, possibly spurious, claims about biomechanics and some, clearly more spurious, claims about the effect of some training methods on biomechanics, does NOT qualify you to teach anyone how to ride or to offer remedial training for problem horses.


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## chestnut cob (5 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			What did annoy me is having Dr H make loads of money selling a book which was all about what is wrong with the use of force, hyperflexion, bad riding and quick results and then be photographed doing exactly what he condemned. The ability to write a book where you describe the anatomy of a horse and make some, possibly spurious, claims about biomechanics and some, clearly more spurious, claims about the effect of some training methods on biomechanics, does NOT qualify you to teach anyone how to ride or to offer remedial training for problem horses.
		
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This is what I have said throughout this thread.

I said to start with that GH stuck his head above the parapet, preached to all and sundry about the evilness of hyperflexion, how horses should be trained sympathetically and without force, then we see these photos which appear to be of him hauling that horse around and riding in a manner totally contradictory to his writing.

If he couldn't improve the horse in that clinic or it was a lost case, he shouldn't have worked with it in a demo.  IMHO his ego seems to have got the better of him.  He may be an excellent vet but I see an average rider who has listened to little bits of various methods  and thinks that now makes him an expert.  I would be interested to hear him talk on the veterinary aspects of his work but I wouldn't want to see him ride.

To sussexbythesea - maybe you should try a different classical instructor?  There seem to be a lot of people around who claim to be classical trainers but it doesn't nec. mean they are any good, just like there are a lot of "natural horsemanship" practitioners out there.  Start with an Enlightened Equitation trainer, that's how I found my instructor who is fab and has turned my horse around.


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## Booboos (5 August 2010)

chestnut cob said:



			This is what I have said throughout this thread.
		
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I completely agree with you and with many of the other things said in this thread! 

See, I am not always objecting to things!


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## TarrSteps (5 August 2010)

I'm genuinely surprised GH is now billing himself as a trainer/rider.  I saw him as part of the "anti-rolkur roadshow" with Balkenhol and Debbie McDonald a few years ago and his input was purely theoretical/scientific.  In fact the subject of his own riding came up and he was relatively self-effacing about it.  (Which any sensible person would be, in light of the two other people involved!)  

I see the sense in what he's saying - the intent, even if the science is not necessarily proven (which doesn't make it incorrect, just unproven) - but I found him evangelical to an off putting degree in person.  He really did have some harsh things to say and wasn't shy about saying them.  I understand he's an "advocate for the horse" but it seems clear that part of the current fuss is because he's been so quick to condemn some people on the strength of relatively small amounts of (possibly biased) information. It's no real surprise he's been called on what now seems hypocrisy if not outright hubris.  

I'm personally very nervous of people who say "always" and "never" with horses, especially if they seem particularly keen to prove they're right by demonstrating how wrong other people are.  

As to whether or not what he's doing in those photos is "right", as people above have said, it's very difficult to judge with only snapshots . . .  I wasn't aware he was much of a Baucherist, or a fan of French Light in general - it seemed to me he's promoted a more traditional, relatively moderate German school approach, which doesn't really jive with some of the comments above, nor with the explanations for those photos.

What does upset me, though, is he's been adamant in resisting the lure of the "quick fix", trying to affect something by force which is really the provenance of long term training and physical development.  That seems at odds with the stated purpose of at least the particular incident in the photos.

It's so tricky, separating out what people do from what they say.  I think much of what he's promoted in the past is very valid and worth discussion . . . is that negated because it seems he doesn't always practice what he preaches?

I do feel for Balkenhol.  His support, influence and fame went a long way to establishing GH as a voice to be listened to and it seems his views have been cast aside, which must be quite frustrating for him.  Without opening a can of worms, something similar happened to Parelli - he and his methods had the public support of some very established horsemen early on, but as the juggernaut gained momentum he seemed less inclined to value what those people may have known that he didn't.  Way of the world, I guess.

I have to say, the very best horsemen I've been acquainted in are very interested in and respectful of what other good horsemen are doing, even if they don't do the same things or even agree on the fine points.  They might not be "humble" in the way people often mean it - they certainly have the courage of their convictions - but they are genuinely entranced by horses and riding and improving.  I just don't get that vibe from GH, I'm afraid.


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## Booboos (5 August 2010)

Very sensible stuff TarrSteps.




TarrSteps said:



			I see the sense in what he's saying - the intent, even if the science is not necessarily proven (which doesn't make it incorrect, just unproven) - but I found him evangelical to an off putting degree in person.
		
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Just a small thought. I completely agree with you that just because a scientific claim has not been proven it's not necessarily wrong, but if we add to that the following:

- the claim would be easy to prove as it makes assertions about the state of muscle tissue, bones, ease of movement, pain, stress and frequency of injuries
- if it were proven it would greatly strengthen the public case against rollkur so there is great reason and urgency to prove it

BUT nevertheless no one is doing anything to prove it, then the efforts of some people in this area begin to look more like self-promotion for financial gain than disinterested attempts to promote the good of the horse and are contrary to basic scientific principles which do require proof before assertions are made public.


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## TarrSteps (5 August 2010)

There was a discussion at one point about studying the effects of rolkur and related subjects but all I ever heard about was the one letting horses chose to go in one direction or the other.  I wasn't privy to the intricacies of how they organised the study but there seemed to be a great many variables involved, not the least of which was potential bias on the part of the riders involved, so I couldn't take it too seriously.  I haven't seen anything analysing medium or long term effects on development, although I think there may have been something done regarding breathing rates and other indicators of stress.

Any discussion of "force" in horses is fraught.  Not least because they are simply not designed for the jobs we ask them to do.  End of.  So, technically, ANYTHING we ask of horses "forces" them to exist/behave/move in unnatural ways.  Personally, I don't think this is a bad thing to keep in mind, although I don't agree it predicates a jump to any use of horses is "wrong".  The world is full of compromises and risks.


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## Seahorse (5 August 2010)

Google chrome translated it for me, but not very well, from what I can gather the horse refuses to accept the bit or the leg and is a very argumentative creature!

My classical instructor is a big fan of his and has been to several of his lecture demo's, she teaches me things that she has learnt from him and I can assure you that if she saw him doing something cruel to a horse she would walk out.

yes he is flexing it to the side, and in a few photo's he looks to be riding it very deep almost rollkur like, but we don't know if the horse was being very strong at the time and possibly p***sing off with him.

He was only on the horse for 25 minutes. 

I am shocked that people are putting him in the same camp as pat parelli!!


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## Morgan123 (5 August 2010)

this is v odd - my instructor regularly trains with Dr H and her emphasis (from him!) is totally the opposite of those pics, all softly softly kind and consistent frames for them to work into etc, consistent wiht his book as you'd expect, absolutely no pulling around  like in this pics... don't get it! I have a friend who's a dressagey person in Germany, will see if she knows any more...

Even if he's just trying to prove a point about how not to ride rollkur-wise this seems a bit weird....


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## TarrSteps (5 August 2010)

I didn't put him in the same camp with Parelli, I merely said that he has experienced a similar situation with regard to a "cooling of relations" with some very established "mainstream" horsemen who had originally encouraged his work.   I think Balkenhol's comments are very telling - maybe there is more behind it but that's a big red flag and I'd be inclined to trust his opinion of someone's riding.

Our of curiosity, does anyone have other footage of his riding?  Seahorse, has your trainer watched him ride much?

My primary point relates to your comment re what your instructor has learned from him.  Personally, I don't think that very valuable information is negated by the fact that he might not be the worlds best rider.  BUT the implication of not only the photos but the discussion of the incident is that he ignored his own "first, do no harm" mandate.  As suggested by the post above this, that's confusing!  Does that diminish the useful things he has to say?  I think not, but then I'd apply that to any other rider/trainer as well, including some of the rolkur practitioners - I think Anky and Sjef know a bit about training horses, too - and even Parelli. 

Maybe the real question is should people with useful theoretical knowledge be required to demonstrate it without exception?  Seems a bit unrealistic.  That said, what makes me go "hmm" is not simply how the horse is positioned in some of the photos but how he looks as a rider.  It's true that everyone has bad moments but if he's putting himself forward (don't know if he is or isn't) as the equal of Balkenhol and similar, that's a pretty tall order to fill.


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## Seahorse (5 August 2010)

I have texted my instructor and told her to look on here and on BD forum, she said she will look, I'm sure she'll let me know what she thinks!!


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## Booboos (6 August 2010)

TarrSteps said:



			There was a discussion at one point about studying the effects of rolkur and related subjects but all I ever heard about was the one letting horses chose to go in one direction or the other.  I wasn't privy to the intricacies of how they organised the study but there seemed to be a great many variables involved, not the least of which was potential bias on the part of the riders involved, so I couldn't take it too seriously.  I haven't seen anything analysing medium or long term effects on development, although I think there may have been something done regarding breathing rates and other indicators of stress.
		
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There is a summary of the behavioural study here: http://www.voicesforhorses.co.uk/adviceandinfo/read_79_Do-horses-prefer-Rollkur?.html
It seems very poorly done, e.g. no control group, no double blind methodology, no study of horses ridden long term in rollkur, no differentiation between what is of interest to an animal and what is in that animal's interest, etc.

If you are interested, this link has most references to rollkur studies. http://www.slideshare.net/guest29fcc4/rollkur The most annoying thing, for me, is that there are no studies to back up Dr H's empirical claims on muscular and skeletal degeneration.


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## Booboos (6 August 2010)

There is also a brand new study showing breathing is restricted during rollkur (although this is not a claim that Dr H was ever involved in, at least not in the book) http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242675

I haven't read the German version, but from the summary, this seems full of holes. Again no control group, no check on differences between horses new to rollkur and used to rollkur (which may have adapted their breathing to the technique), no study of horses working in other positions, e.g. hollow (which is much more common in terms of everyday riding and therefore could potentially be a much greater welfare issue than rollkur), etc.

On the whole it's pretty shocking how poor the methodology of these studies is.


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## chestnut cob (6 August 2010)

Seahorse said:



			Google chrome translated it for me, but not very well, from what I can gather the horse refuses to accept the bit or the leg and is a very argumentative creature!

My classical instructor is a big fan of his and has been to several of his lecture demo's, she teaches me things that she has learnt from him and I can assure you that if she saw him doing something cruel to a horse she would walk out.

yes he is flexing it to the side, and in a few photo's he looks to be riding it very deep almost rollkur like, but we don't know if the horse was being very strong at the time and possibly p***sing off with him.

He was only on the horse for 25 minutes. 

I am shocked that people are putting him in the same camp as pat parelli!!
		
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OK, so to put this into perspective... it is OK for GH, because he is classically minded, to ride the horse "deep, almost rollkur like" provided he had a good reason (which you suggest may be that the horse was being very strong), and it is also acceptable because "he was only on the horse for 25 minutes"?  I find this difficult to understand because the general consensus at the time was that it was UNacceptable for Patrik Kittel to ride Watermill Scandic in this position at all, yet it appears GH can be excused for it because the horse may have been being naughty?

I'm sorry but as GH is so outspoken against rollkur then he shouldn't be riding like this at all, especially not in a public forum.  Does as I say, not as I do, springs to mind...


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## Booboos (6 August 2010)

The whole thing, Dr H, Anky, Patrik Kittel, etc., is a total mess, but this is what happens when people are allowed to criticise others and their way of riding, to call for bannings and FEI intervention, without proper evidence. 

If there had been clear scientific proof that rollkur causes a welfare problem, then anyone doing the things that cause the problem would be subject to the same censure and penalties - period! No need to ask who is this person, or which side of the debate they are on. If they are causing an animal suffering, they should be made to stop.

Dr H is just getting a dose of his own medicine as far as I am concerned and I couldn't be more pleased about it!


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## fburton (6 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			There is a summary of the behavioural study here: http://www.voicesforhorses.co.uk/adviceandinfo/read_79_Do-horses-prefer-Rollkur?.html
It seems very poorly done,
		
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I acually think this study was done reasonably well considering the difficulty of such studies in general. I'd be interested to hear what you would have done differently to improve it.




			e.g. no control group,
		
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What would have been the proper control group in the preference test? A completely separate group of horses that weren't subjected to Rollkur at all is the obvious one, but then all that would have showed is whether horses have an intrinsic laterality or not, an effect that was "controlled" by randomization in the experiment.

In the fear test, the two groups were "normal riding+fear stimulus" vs "Rollkur+fear stimulus" and behaviour and heart rate responses were measured. The control was the pre-stimulus period. Arguably there could have been a third group that was not subjected to the fear stimulus at all, but I'm not sure what information would be gained from this beyond what was actually obtained or what "confounding factor" would have been controlled for.




			no double blind methodology,
		
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For me, this is the only serious criticism of the experiment. It isn't made clear whether the "trained observer" knew whether the horse had previously been ridden in Rollkur or not. But even if they were "blinded", it is almost certainly the case, given the small number of riders and the fact that swapping wasn't mentioned, that the riders knew which side meant "ride in Rollkur" and so could have, deliberately or subconsciously, influenced the horse to choose the non-Rollkur side. One could would out how many of the riders would have to have done that to make the results statistically significant, assuming that the horses really had no preference between Rollkur and non-Rollkur.




			no study of horses ridden long term in rollkur,
		
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That's not really the fault of _this_ study, which didn't set out to address that issue. Clearly, there is more work to be done on long-term effects.




			no differentiation between what is of interest to an animal and what is in that animal's interest, etc.
		
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I think that is completely outside the scope of a single experiment. What's in the "animal's interest" would need some measure of long-term harm, as you point out. Whether "interest to an animal" is important or not is more to do with people's attitudes to use of animals and the degree to which inflicting a procedure that can be shown to cause discomfort or distress (with or without measurable physical harm) can be justified in the interests of how a horse is subjectively assessed in the dressage arena.

So, while I'm not entirely disagreeing with you regarding this study, I do think you are judging it a little too harshly.


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## fburton (6 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			If there had been clear scientific proof that rollkur causes a welfare problem
		
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Even with hard scientific evidence of effects, can we all agree on what constitutes a welfare problem? I don't think so!

Some people would need to see painful pathological changes, while others would consider e.g. the restriction in horses' forward vision that Rollkur undoubtedly entails as evidence of a "welfare problem", with a range of beliefs in between.

Sometime we have to do things to horses which are unpleasant, even painful at times, but usually we have very good reasons for doing so - like saving life, or preventing further harm or suffering. However, where convenience or fashion are concerned, inflicting unpleasantness is harder to justify, in my view.  




			Dr H is just getting a dose of his own medicine as far as I am concerned and I couldn't be more pleased about it! 

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I agree, he is - though I'm not sure schadenfreude is the proper response, even given Dr H's nationality.


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## fburton (6 August 2010)

chestnut cob said:



			I'm sorry but as GH is so outspoken against rollkur then he shouldn't be riding like this at all, especially not in a public forum.  Does as I say, not as I do, springs to mind...
		
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Yes, it certainly seems like that, I agree.


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## chestnut cob (6 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			Dr H is just getting a dose of his own medicine as far as I am concerned and I couldn't be more pleased about it! 

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A little bit spiteful and unnecessary, no?


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## Booboos (6 August 2010)

Interesting points all, here is what I think, although I have not read the study in detail so maybe some of these concerns were addressed:



fburton said:



			What would have been the proper control group in the preference test? A completely separate group of horses that weren't subjected to Rollkur at all is the obvious one, but then all that would have showed is whether horses have an intrinsic laterality or not, an effect that was "controlled" by randomization in the experiment.

In the fear test, the two groups were "normal riding+fear stimulus" vs "Rollkur+fear stimulus" and behaviour and heart rate responses were measured. The control was the pre-stimulus period. Arguably there could have been a third group that was not subjected to the fear stimulus at all, but I'm not sure what information would be gained from this beyond what was actually obtained or what "confounding factor" would have been controlled for..
		
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This tends to assume that there are only two options, normal riding=good and rollkur=bad. A control group could have been set up to challenge this, e.g. a group where there was no riding, or hacking for example.

Also there are many other parametres that may have led the horses to choose the 'non-rollkur' arena, e.g. perhaps it was lighter or less dusty or on the right and more horses turn right than left (let's say) - a control group should have been used to discount these possibilities. It would also have been useful to repeat the study but reverese the arenas to discount some of these factors.




fburton said:



			For me, this is the only serious criticism of the experiment. It isn't made clear whether the "trained observer" knew whether the horse had previously been ridden in Rollkur or not. But even if they were "blinded", it is almost certainly the case, given the small number of riders and the fact that swapping wasn't mentioned, that the riders knew which side meant "ride in Rollkur" and so could have, deliberately or subconsciously, influenced the horse to choose the non-Rollkur side. One could would out how many of the riders would have to have done that to make the results statistically significant, assuming that the horses really had no preference between Rollkur and non-Rollkur..
		
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Yes, and this is a really serious fault. The rider's seat can easily influence the horse's choice, whether they rider intends this or not. It would have been very easy to have riders who knew nothing about the purpose of the experiment, other than 'get on this horse and do nothing, allowing it to choose where it goes'.  



fburton said:



			That's not really the fault of _this_ study, which didn't set out to address that issue. Clearly, there is more work to be done on long-term effects..
		
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What I meant by this is that perhaps horses that are ridden long term in rollkur prefer it because their muscles have had time to adjust to the position. It's a bit like going to the gym for the first time and doing so intensively every day for a week - you are bound to ache a lot at the weekend, whereas if you go twice a week for a year, you may look forward to it more. We won't really know unless this group of horses was considered as well.



fburton said:



			I think that is completely outside the scope of a single experiment. What's in the "animal's interest" would need some measure of long-term harm, as you point out. Whether "interest to an animal" is important or not is more to do with people's attitudes to use of animals and the degree to which inflicting a procedure that can be shown to cause discomfort or distress (with or without measurable physical harm) can be justified in the interests of how a horse is subjectively assessed in the dressage arena.

So, while I'm not entirely disagreeing with you regarding this study, I do think you are judging it a little too harshly.
		
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But it goes exactly to the heart of the point of the experiment. The experiment shows that horses do not choose to be ridden in rollkur, from which people draw the normative conclusion that therefore horses should not be ridden in rollkur. By extension if horses choose not to be ridden at all, then horses should not be ridden at all. The entire premise the experiment sets out to test is spurious for those reasons.


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## Booboos (6 August 2010)

chestnut cob said:



			A little bit spiteful and unnecessary, no?
		
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I often get carried away when typing, but I'll stand by this one! 

If you judge other people unfairly, then piggey-back onto a worthy cause in order to promote yourself and make money AND get caught out you deserve everything you get.


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## fburton (6 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			This tends to assume that there are only two options, normal riding=good and rollkur=bad. A control group could have been set up to challenge this, e.g. a group where there was no riding, or hacking for example.
		
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Not sure what you mean here, sorry. How could "not riding" (for example) incorporate a Rollkur vs no-Rollkur test?




			Also there are many other parametres that may have led the horses to choose the 'non-rollkur' arena, e.g. perhaps it was lighter or less dusty or on the right and more horses turn right than left (let's say) - a control group should have been used to discount these possibilities. It would also have been useful to repeat the study but reverese the arenas to discount some of these factors.
		
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Maybe I misread the paper, but my understanding is that _both_ sides of the arena were used for both Rollkur and no-Rollkur, in a balanced design that should cancel out any inherent preference for one side over another when all the results are taken together.




			What I meant by this is that perhaps horses that are ridden long term in rollkur prefer it because their muscles have had time to adjust to the position. It's a bit like going to the gym for the first time and doing so intensively every day for a week - you are bound to ache a lot at the weekend, whereas if you go twice a week for a year, you may look forward to it more. We won't really know unless this group of horses was considered as well.
		
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That's a fair point - and one worth investigating. If (some) horses still showed a preference for not doing Rollkur despite a decent period of intensive training, that would strengthen the argument against the practice (though probably not enough to recommend banning it altogether).




			But it goes exactly to the heart of the point of the experiment. The experiment shows that horses do not choose to be ridden in rollkur, from which people draw the normative conclusion that therefore horses should not be ridden in rollkur. By extension if horses choose not to be ridden at all, then horses should not be ridden at all. The entire premise the experiment sets out to test is spurious for those reasons.
		
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Yes, once again it comes down to where to draw the line - personally and in terms of organizations making rules. It is easy to argue that the clear benefits to us, and to an extent to horses, of riding outweigh the costs in terms of inconvenience to horses. Certainly, when horses enjoy working - as many do - it's a no-brainer. What happens, though, when you have a horse that doesn't enjoy his work to the extent of showing continuous and overt avoidance behaviour? Insist that he works all the same? Change the management and/or exercise regime to reduce sourness? Find some other activity that he enjoys doing? Turn him away indefinitely? At least there is a range of options to consider.

In the case of Rollkur, it's harder, for me anyway, to argue in favour of the practice because the costs appear not to be trivial and the benefits are much less obvious.


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## Seahorse (6 August 2010)

just spoken to my instructor, she said that she has seen him ride before and didn't like the way he rides. She likes the way he teaches but said he shouldn't ride because he's not very good!!
She saw him do a clinic with a vet that specialises in kissing spines and back problems.

He teaches the exercise he is doing but in a very different way, using the high rein aid and turning your hand over is very effective with most horses, it obviously isn't with that one because he's having to pull hard. I think the horse is pissing off with him which it looks like it's doing in the pics where his head is tucked right in, and why he is facing it towards the wall.
He always rides in light seat, which is why he looks to be tipping forward in most of the pics.
He apparently never used to ride but is doing so more and more now, my instructor was going to walk out within the first few minutes of him riding the first time she saw him, but had stayed to see the outcome, he does the same things with every horse he gets on because he doesn't know any other way of riding. He is almost obsessive about getting the neck out in front of the horse.

He also does a lot of stuff at TTT and they never let him ride there, only teach!!

Anyway she wasn't surprised that this has happened!!


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## TarrSteps (6 August 2010)

V interesting, Seahorse, thanks.  That seems to be the general consensus.  Very unfortunate because, as discussed, I think he has good things to say and this has the potential to make people throw the baby out with the bath water, as it were.

Btw, just as a fine point, even though GH has a jumping background, I wouldn't call what he's doing in the photos in question a "light seat".  (Not correcting you - I know why you're saying what you're saying - just a general comment if anyone looks at the photos and attempts to emulate GH.)  In fact, that's part of what I find disappointing.   He's certainly not balanced over his lower leg, with a soft but stable upper body, flat back, and flexible hip/knee/ankle joints.  There are some truly superb examples of jumper riders who assume not only a great light seat, but can move seemlessly through a range of positions as the circumstances and horse's way of going demands.  

This looks more like a "not dressage" seat, rather than a seat for another specific purpose.  In some ways it's close to the way many people who do a lot of young horses/backing ride, although even then, it's more exaggerated and doesn't look nearly as fluid/stable as you'd expect.


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## Booboos (7 August 2010)

fburton: I thought the non-riding group should be included because asking "do horses prefer rollkur to non-rollkur riding?" immediately raises the next question "do horses prefer non-riding to riding?". If there is some merit in figuring out the horse's preference with respect to rollkur, then there is some merit in figuring out the horse's preference with respect to riding. For me, this is what makes this kind of approach worrying, because it can easily be expanded by people like PETA. If we ban rollkur (partly) because horses don't like it, we may need to follow with a ban on all riding because horses don't like it. 

Re the arena, thanks I had not realised that. Not to be pedantic but my lot always prefer one side of the arena to the other, so I would slightly wonder whether the non-rollkur side was closer to the stables, the exit, etc. Would have been interesting to give the horses a break and repeat, reversing the sides of the arena used.

Seahorse: thanks for this, very intersting.


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## Seahorse (7 August 2010)

In his words he rides in a light seat because he thinks he is heavy and is trying to help the horses back!! He just looks unbalanced to me!!


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## TarrSteps (7 August 2010)

Oh, totally agree!  I've seen his explanation as well.

It was just that I can see someone looking at those pics, reading "light seat" and thinking that's what the traditional light seat looked like.  Maybe that speaks to the heart of the fuss, actually.  There is a defined "light seat" that many very good horsemen/coaches teach for a specific reason.  That is not a good example of it, yet he's using the accepted term.  Maybe that's the underlying theme - "incorrect" riding is just as potentially damaging as "brutal" riding . . . but that's a whole other can of worms.


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## Seahorse (7 August 2010)

absolutely!!


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## kerilli (7 August 2010)

LizScott said:



			Yes I get it - and don't understand the problem either  Yes it would be lovely if horses instantly understood what we meant and we could sit on them looking elegant and still BUT in reality we have to let them know what we want and sometimes this means exagerating movements so that eventually aids can be subtle. I don't think the horse is being forced by bodyweight etc, in fact I think he is being very correct in his position. Just my opinion 

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Only just found this thread, very interesting. I really like much of what he's written, but am SO disappointed to see how he rides. I don't care if the horse was being difficult, I don't think it warranted the use of such force, particularly in a public demo where he is supposed to be showing less experienced people how to do it... 
as for LizScott's comment, she must be looking at totally different pictures to me! Yeuk. Really not a nice position at all. I agree with TarrSteps, he looks unbalanced. And those hands are NOT nice, I don't care if it's a snaffle or a double, you can still do immense damage to the mouth with that much force imho.


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## missyme10 (8 August 2010)

To me he looks like he's had a bit of a battle with the horse.
Today I had a similar one, my horse decided he was heading for the gate, I was having none of it, and I had to pull on the reigns tighter and tighter to stop him and turn him, if caught on camera it would have looked bad - very similar to these pics maybe, and would have been taken completely out of context.
If I'd let my horse have his way, he'd be bolting for the gate any time he felt like it and that would make riding him unsafe, so he has to learn to go in the direction I tell him. Typically trying his luck, thats all.

I've no idea about the man himself, I've never heard of him, but I think this is a classic case of events taken out of context x


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## zefragile (8 August 2010)

missyme10 said:



			I've no idea about the man himself, I've never heard of him, but I think this is a classic case of events taken out of context x
		
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It wouldn't be such a big thing if he hadn't made such a big thing of pointing fingers at others. Thing is, he's based a career on saying certain things are wrong and damaging, so he's basically not practising what he preaches.


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## Seahorse (8 August 2010)

I think he along with a lot of people in the public eye (pat parelli and such) are getting a bit above themselves and are beginning to think they are invincible, along with arrogance that they can 'sort out' any horse. 

Like my instructor said he is going against everything he teaches and has written about, but she has seen him ride several times and wishes he wouldn't as (in her words, he's ****!)
The exercise he is doing I have done on my horse, where you turn your hand over (it does have a proper name) and put the rein up high to gently flex the horse to the inside,  but he is using it in the wrong way, it is not working on that horse but he doesn't use any other method other thank this on every horse he rides. 

Unfortunately he has negated everything he has said in these few minutes of riding.

When my instructor goes to see him she watches him teach and lecture then goes home before he rides!


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## DressageFjordNorman (8 August 2010)

I think he's more of the 'perfect in theory' guy, but it doesn't work in practice.


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## Booboos (11 August 2010)

And now they are at it amongst themselves:
http://www.philippe-karl.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=25&location_id=354&topicid=3

For anyone who can't be bothered to read all of this, the executive summary is that although PK thinks DrH is perfectly right in condemning rollkur, as far as anything else goes he knows nothing either about theory or about practice. This would be really funny if it wasn't so sad!


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## spaniel (11 August 2010)

Well having read all of that I would pay money to see the two of them in the same room!   Talk about over inflated ego.

Ridiculous.


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## Booboos (11 August 2010)

spaniel said:



			Well having read all of that I would pay money to see the two of them in the same room!   Talk about over inflated ego.

Ridiculous.
		
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Yes, it's clear they both have the best interests of the horse at heart and nothing motivates them as much as animal welfare


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## spaniel (11 August 2010)

Men....they both need their legs slapped to be honest.  They both DO have very valid and sensible thgouht processes,  both have much to teach anyone who cares to listen....and both need a good slap down.

There are hundreds,  thousands probably,  of great riders on this planet.  They quietly get on with doing their thing and make no fuss,  dont find the need to blow their own trumpet or preach or take money for knowledge.

PK and GH need to remember that self promotion may not be the best way to go!


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## Rouletterose (11 August 2010)

I've always thought that men could definately be bitchier than women.....what a pair of twits, but having said that I would pay a fortune to watch or have a clinic with PK.


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## winterwood (29 August 2010)

spookypony said:



			According to the text, the photos were taken at a workshop during which he spend ca. 25 minutes working on a "problem" horse. The article's authors take issue with what they perceive as an attempt to accomplish in one session, using brute strength, what Dr H. himself has often acknowledged will generally take many sessions.

I would not get too wound up by this. These are moments captured during what looks like rather a large argument with the horse in question, and the choice and placement of these particular photos suggests a certain agenda on the part of the author. I do not believe that we are seeing enough of what happened to come to any particular conclusions.

I'm no fan of Rollkur, and if anything, I tend towards far too light a contact. Yet I'm sure that someone with a high-speed camera could capture moments where it looks like I'm yanking my pony's teeth out, as he tries to evade me by tucking his head somewhere it shouldn't be.

Tempest in a tea-pot, in my opinion! 

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very true


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## Sunflowers (4 September 2010)

Guys, i really don't think this is any thing like a roll-kur issue


Having ridden a few fresians, they tend to get very very short in the neck, (by virtue of conformation) and like to curl their noses in - it can be very tricky to persuade them to take your hand forward into the bridle, in front of the verticle.

And with a horse that has this tendency, simply throwing away the rein in an attempt to get their nose out, never encourages the horse to accept and understand the contact, as every time they tuck their head in, you 'reward' that tendancy by giving away the rein...

...So the only way to gently counter this tendency is with a steady hand, with enough positive pressure on the rein to show the horse how you need the contact to be, but vitally a forward-thinking hand so that whenever the horse does take his nose forward into the contact, you can reward and encourage by pushing your hand forward.

Plenty of these photos seem to show exactly this process

Does this make sense folks? I hope we aren't going to demonise Dr Heuschmann, who has been a wonderful proponent of sympathetic training - there are other riders out there who frankly deserve the vitriol, but not in this case i believe.


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## Booboos (4 September 2010)

Sunflowers said:



			Does this make sense folks? I hope we aren't going to demonise Dr Heuschmann, who has been a wonderful proponent of sympathetic training - there are other riders out there who frankly deserve the vitriol, but not in this case i believe.
		
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How do we decide who to condemn? If a photo is sufficient to condemn one person, why isn't it sufficient to condemn another? If a reasonable explanation of the horse's way of going is enough to account for one training method, why isn't it enough for another? Why do Anky's words about sympathetic training not count for as much as Dr H's? How do we decide who deserves the vitriol (if we absolutely insist on chucking poisonous substances around!)?


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