# Rant - why can't greyhound breeders remove dew claws!



## {97702} (3 May 2014)

Prompted by the small white greyhound trying to remove one of her dew claws when running through the woods yesterday - she is very stoical so we only noticed when there were blood stains all over the dog bed when we got home! Luckily it isn't bad enough to need the dew claw removing, but for anyone who thinks they should be left on - please don't


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## Alec Swan (3 May 2014)

Dew claws are left in place because it's felt that they aid a dog,  when it's turning onto it's quarry.  Dew claws are a 'turning aid' and on coursing or racing dogs should be left in place.  When they tear or are even completely removed,  apart from an apparently disproportionate amount of blood(!),  the effects are generally very short lived.

Not always,  but generally,  bitches don't have rear dew claws,  and there's a reason for that,  they tend not to need them as dogs do.

Alec.


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## Dry Rot (3 May 2014)

Personally, I would not remove dew claws from a "normal" dog. I regard greyhounds as having an extreme shape designed for speed, so not standard or normal conformation in my opinion. (I suppose it could be argued that greyhounds are the normal ones and all other breeds are odd!).

Dogs use front dew claws in grooming and when running, especially up steep inclines, as Alec has pointed out. If they were superfluous, why do wild canids have them?

I think asking why greyhounds are so thinned skinned could also be a legitimate question! Most of the lurchers I have owned in the past have torn themselves by doing nothing more than LOOKING at a barbed wire fence! If anyone wants suturing, I am an expert. Or at least, very very experienced!


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## {97702} (3 May 2014)

Well we must agree to differ then - I would never, ever leave dew claws on any breed, and this is just one example of why,  Incidentally, having had dogs all my life, I have never seen a dog using it's dew claws for grooming 

Fortunately (and this will be famous last words no doubt) I rarely have had problems with greyhounds being thin skinned, mine go through the woods on a daily basis but so far have avoided ripping themselves....until now perhaps.....


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## splashgirl45 (3 May 2014)

my previous lurcher tore her dew claws so often and so severely I had them removed when she was about 2.  I never regretted it and luckily my current dogs do not have them, I assume they were removed as pups.


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## mynutmeg (3 May 2014)

My collie has her front dew claws and never had any bother with the front ones however her breeder hadn't properly nipped her back ones and while she had one completely gone the other was a sort of half dew claw. I planned to have it removed when she was spayed but she ripped it herself before then and ended up needing a surgery to have it removed.


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## Zero00000 (3 May 2014)

After watching my StaffxLab (we think) tear his dew claws off continuously until they stopped growing back (and vet was reluctant to remove) I do sympathise with you OP,

However my staffs have never had an issue with them, other than digging in when they jump up, OUCH!


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## MurphysMinder (3 May 2014)

Are we talking about front or back dew claws?  Front dew claws are always left on GSDs and (fingers crossed) I have never had a problem with them.  Back dew claws if present are removed. Years ago there were usually a couple of pups in a litter that had back ones, but in the last 20 years or so I have never seen one, so would seem they are gradually disappearing in the breed.


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## Dry Rot (3 May 2014)

Lévrier;12439583 said:
			
		


			Well we must agree to differ then - I would never, ever leave dew claws on any breed, and this is just one example of why,  Incidentally, having had dogs all my life, I have never seen a dog using it's dew claws for grooming 

Fortunately (and this will be famous last words no doubt) I rarely have had problems with greyhounds being thin skinned, mine go through the woods on a daily basis but so far have avoided ripping themselves....until now perhaps..... 

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You've never seen a dog wipe its face with a paw? Amazing!

Presumably your dogs are not working dogs.

And I'll bet I have been around more dogs and for longer than most on this forum! In that time, I may have seen two or three dogs with damaged dew claws.


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## Leo Walker (3 May 2014)

Mine are working bred but dont technically work, but they do get "worked" hard including lure racing etc. I, touch wood, havent had a dew claw issue, and anyone who has seen a sight hound at full speed doing a turn  can see why they might need them  Mind scratch their faces with them too 

And despite being mainly whippet lurchers they are hard as nails! My boy is terrible for launching himself into impenetrable bramble thickets after interesting things! His coat is very thin and silky smooth. I just check him after every walk and remove thorns etc. Hes a black dog but he has a fair speckling of white due to all the thorns I've removed! But they never seem to bother him and he suffers no lasting damage other than his mirror finish coat getting the odd white hair 

I find mind hard as nails as a rule, although they are definitely drama queens! A little scuff needs lots of attention, a full 360 fall doesnt bother them at all


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## Alec Swan (3 May 2014)

FrankieCob said:



			.....

I find mind hard as nails as a rule, although they are definitely drama queens! A little scuff needs lots of attention, a full 360 fall doesnt bother them at all 

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It never fails to surprise me that full rotational falls,  with occasionally more than one complete cartwheel,  and they're up and barely break their stride;  grab one by the scruff,  even for safety's sake,  and the screaming has to be heard to be believed!! 

Doubtless you will also have noticed when your dogs have been flat out,  and when they return there's often grass,  or at least debris,  hooked into the dew claws.  All coursing dogs should have their front claws left in place,  unless of course they never have their freedom,  but then it doesn't really matter anyway!

The grey flecking is an interesting observation,  and all so often it's only dark dogs,  black or blue which seem to grey-out from their myriad cuts.

Alec.


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## {97702} (3 May 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			You've never seen a dog wipe its face with a paw? Amazing!

Presumably your dogs are not working dogs.

And I'll bet I have been around more dogs and for longer than most on this forum! In that time, I may have seen two or three dogs with damaged dew claws.
		
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I count myself fortunate that I am clearly younger than you then - and no, I haven't seen any dog wipe its face with a dew claw, because I have always known breeders who have had the common sense to remove them 

And I have seen four dogs with damaged dew claws in the past ten years, including my old lurcher who ripped out a front dew claw 3 times before it stopped growing back.  They are certainly not working dogs, they are rescue dogs who are not allowed to work - why, does that make a difference?  Because I certainly don't think so, they are not soft pet dogs thats for sure.....


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## Fides (3 May 2014)

Alec ha ha yeah mine always come back with grass stuck in them. And you're right - they're wimpy dogs!


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## Leo Walker (3 May 2014)

Actually Alec your right! I'd just never put 2 + 2 together! They get clumps of grass and soil under there!

My young dog once screamed blue murder at the top of the stairs, I thought he was dying! I went running up and he seemed fine, but refused to walk. On closer examination he had a tiny scab behind one knee that was pulling a tiny bit when he flexed his leg. I picked the scab off and he was ok. Yet I've known him hit the ground with a hideous and ominous thud at full speed and get up and carry on! The day they were chasing a deer and hit each other mid air over barbed wire I assumed they were ok, until I got home and had to dress all the cuts!

Both of mine are black with speckles. I've never had another colour to compare, but they def seem to go white at the slightest thing. The thorns I pull out barely puncture the skin, theres never any blood. But they scar white everytime!


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## Leo Walker (3 May 2014)

Lévrier;12440013 said:
			
		


			I count myself fortunate that I am clearly younger than you then - and no, I haven't seen any dog wipe its face with a dew claw, because I have always known breeders who have had the common sense to remove them 

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Really?? These 2 are my first foray into sighthounds but they do it ALL the time! Until this post I just thought all dogs would do it if they could  Mine do it a lot! Not every day that I notice but several times a month that I witness. I've only ever registered it as its such a careful and graceful movement that it catches my eye


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## {97702} (4 May 2014)

FrankieCob said:



			Really?? These 2 are my first foray into sighthounds but they do it ALL the time! Until this post I just thought all dogs would do it if they could  Mine do it a lot! Not every day that I notice but several times a month that I witness. I've only ever registered it as its such a careful and graceful movement that it catches my eye 

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Gosh I clearly have had the worlds most unusual sight hounds for the past 27 years then - nope none of them do it!


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## Leo Walker (4 May 2014)

Thinking about it, the last spaniel I had did it as well, but with less grace  I think I've only noticed as its such a careful and obvious thing for them to do. Surely my dogs cant be that unusual?  Actually maybe they are? My current dog in particular is bloody amazing! and is credited with me being able to walk after a hideous accident. He pretty special to me, and as such I am aware of his every breath! So its possible that I noticed it with him and then noticed it and remembered it in others?? I know if he takes more breaths per minute than usual, never mind anything else


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## 2Greys (4 May 2014)

Seems wrong to chop bits off dogs because they may get injured in future. 

My greyhounds & lurcher all have dew claws still & so far not had any issues with them, think on some dogs they stick out or bit flappy so are more likely to catch. My dogs do also use them to scratch their heads and like an extra grip on chews. My greyhounds were track bred so maybe breeders expected them to run on decent surface & not particularly rough ground/cover.

 I have read an article in the past about agility dogs were it was suggested those minus dew claws were more suseptible to (i think) carpal injury instead.

There's a brindle greyhound we see on walks that has white speckled coat, that only seen before on the blacks/blues.


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## Dry Rot (4 May 2014)

Lévrier;12440037 said:
			
		


			Gosh I clearly have had the worlds most unusual sight hounds for the past 27 years then - nope none of them do it!
		
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You'll learn a lot about dogs in the next 30 years!   The first 27 is just the apprenticeship.

If dew claws are of no use to a dog, why is it most wild canids have them? If they are such a hindrance, they must all be heading for extinction. (That's assuming you accept Darwin's theory of evolution, of course).

This reminds me of the post by the young vet who declared that dog saliva was full of nasty bacteria and should never be allowed near a wound. So it might be, but it is also a very good antiseptic. If it wasn't, an awful lot of animals that lick their wounds would have become extinct years ago. A lot of these questions can be answered with simple logic. A dog's paws are not very well designed for wiping their faces, which explains why dew claws are located where they are (and why the hairs on a dogs face lie as they do), on the side of the paw. They are also useful when climbing up steep inclines and gripping, as has been mentioned. Dog breeding has produced many breeds that are far removed from a natural shape so it isn't so unreasonable that some natural adaptations are no longer useful (tails on spaniels?). But personally I would not remove dew claws.

My lurchers used to get torn on barbed wire regularly when chasing rabbits and hares. But then maybe you don't have much barbed wire in that wood of yours? Or perhaps they don't hunt?


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## MurphysMinder (4 May 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			You'll learn a lot about dogs in the next 30 years!   The first 27 is just the apprenticeship.
		
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Well on those figures I am fully time served and should probably have received my gold watch a good few years ago, but you never stop learning do you!   I think it's important to always be open to new ideas and approaches whether it is to training, feeding , breeding or whatever.


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## Dry Rot (4 May 2014)

MurphysMinder said:



			Well on those figures I am fully time served and should probably have received my gold watch a good few years ago, but you never stop learning do you!   I think it's important to always be open to new ideas and approaches whether it is to training, feeding , breeding or whatever.
		
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"As You Like It' -- Act 1, scene 5. Or is it Act 5, scene 1?


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## MurphysMinder (4 May 2014)

I knew I should have paid more attention in English lessons,  the best I can remember is "Out, damned spot, out!", and that is only because it made me think of a naughty dog.


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## Alec Swan (4 May 2014)

MurphysMinder said:



			.......   I think it's important to always be open to new ideas and approaches whether it is to training, feeding , breeding or whatever.
		
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The closed mind,  is of little use to it's owner.  

Alec.


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## Irishdan (4 May 2014)

Totally agree OP!  Have had a good many lurchers return from a chase with blood dripping from torn dew claws over the years.  Some more susceptible than others and possibly the ground they are running has another bearing.  Any Salukis bred by us will always have dewclaws removed


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## planete (4 May 2014)

My lurchers race each other over fairly rough ground every day and have occasionally managed to chase what they shouldn't but the only bits that have come back damaged are their stopper pads after a hectic chase across a gravel track.  They use their dew claws to anchor bones they are chewing and they regularly wipe their faces with the inside of their front paws too.  If a dog is prone to damaging the dew claws it is not difficult to tape them with vet wrap. And do cut off the hook which develops at the end of them.


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## Alec Swan (4 May 2014)

Probably an irrelevance,  but for all the breeds and types of dogs which I've owned,  and over the last 50 odd years(±!),  were I only allowed to have one type,  it would be the dog which is bred to course.  I still have the ambition,  that I will one day take a greyhound bitch puppy,  at weaning,  keep it in the house,  and bring it up,  'as a dog',  rather than as a commercial racing animal.  I still think that she'd be fine.

Salukis,  they really aren't my dogs (my apologies to those who keep them!).

Afghans,  not just wooly coats,  but brains to match,  mostly.

Deerhounds,  but they'd be a subject for another thread!

Cross bred coursing dogs?  To watch such a dog,  at full tilt,  either after a hare,  or simply in play,  with another,  then there are few creatures which are quite so lithe and graceful and elegant,  or such power houses.  Rather like the Thoroughbred,  they can go from a standstill,  to flat out,  in four strides!!

Finally of course,  we can go back to the greyhound.  I wonder if anyone has any ideas why as a breed,  they seem to almost be free of inherited problems.  Why do those who keep greyhounds,  those on here anyway,  rarely mention Hip Dysplasia?  Rarely?  If ever would be closer to the truth.  

Has anyone ever had a greyhound with suspect elbows?  Has anyone ever seen a greyhound with a shot jaw?  

There are those,  it's true,  who in old age will be subject to spinal stiffening,  but then they'll mostly be those dogs which have been re-homed as pets , invariably neutered,  and from the viewpoint of safety,  are never allowed,  again,  to gallop,  or quite simply wear and tear.

As a breed,  and from the health perspective,  they are mostly problem free.  Any thoughts,  anyone,  as to why?

Alec.


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## Leo Walker (4 May 2014)

A friend of mine kept a grey as a pet and did pretty well racing with him, so it can be done. She really put the work in keeping him fit though. 

Greyhounds arent bred as pet dogs try and find a greyhound puppy as a pet, its not easy! So therefore only sound dogs with decent performance records are bred from maybe? They arent bred for looks, they are bred for performance. I cant imagine anything with problems lasts very long!


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## Leo Walker (4 May 2014)

The many faces of Dylan! Couch potato to athlete in the blink of an eye


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## vieshot (4 May 2014)

I have a whippet and a Lurcher. Both have their dew claws. Never had a problem.


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## _Annie_ (4 May 2014)

FrankieCob said:








[/URL]
		
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Wow! Hoverdog :-D awesome pic


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## Fides (4 May 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			Finally of course,  we can go back to the greyhound.  I wonder if anyone has any ideas why as a breed,  they seem to almost be free of inherited problems.  Why do those who keep greyhounds,  those on here anyway,  rarely mention Hip Dysplasia?  Rarely?  If ever would be closer to the truth.  

Has anyone ever had a greyhound with suspect elbows?  Has anyone ever seen a greyhound with a shot jaw?  

There are those,  it's true,  who in old age will be subject to spinal stiffening,  but then they'll mostly be those dogs which have been re-homed as pets , invariably neutered,  and from the viewpoint of safety,  are never allowed,  again,  to gallop,  or quite simply wear and tear.

As a breed,  and from the health perspective,  they are mostly problem free.  Any thoughts,  anyone,  as to why?

Alec.
		
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I wonder if it is due to the fact that so many who don't make the grade are PTS. Tends not to happen to TBs as the have an inherent value and are expensive to dispose of. Are greyhounds seen as expendable if they fail?


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## Amicus (4 May 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			Probably an irrelevance,  but for all the breeds and types of dogs which I've owned,  and over the last 50 odd years(±!),  were I only allowed to have one type,  it would be the dog which is bred to course.  I still have the ambition,  that I will one day take a greyhound bitch puppy,  at weaning,  keep it in the house,  and bring it up,  'as a dog',  rather than as a commercial racing animal.  I still think that she'd be fine.

Salukis,  they really aren't my dogs (my apologies to those who keep them!).

Afghans,  not just wooly coats,  but brains to match,  mostly.

Deerhounds,  but they'd be a subject for another thread!

Cross bred coursing dogs?  To watch such a dog,  at full tilt,  either after a hare,  or simply in play,  with another,  then there are few creatures which are quite so lithe and graceful and elegant,  or such power houses.  Rather like the Thoroughbred,  they can go from a standstill,  to flat out,  in four strides!!

Finally of course,  we can go back to the greyhound.  I wonder if anyone has any ideas why as a breed,  they seem to almost be free of inherited problems.  Why do those who keep greyhounds,  those on here anyway,  rarely mention Hip Dysplasia?  Rarely?  If ever would be closer to the truth.  

Has anyone ever had a greyhound with suspect elbows?  Has anyone ever seen a greyhound with a shot jaw?  

There are those,  it's true,  who in old age will be subject to spinal stiffening,  but then they'll mostly be those dogs which have been re-homed as pets , invariably neutered,  and from the viewpoint of safety,  are never allowed,  again,  to gallop,  or quite simply wear and tear.

As a breed,  and from the health perspective,  they are mostly problem free.  Any thoughts,  anyone,  as to why?

Alec.
		
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Definitely an interesting ponder, I was told by a vet involved in research that they're investigating greyhounds as they don't typically get arthritis. I think they want to look at the genetic link to consider the varying predisposition to arthritis in people. Might try and follow it up and see if anythings been published on it.
One of the many reasons i'm a great admirer of greyhounds.


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## Dobiegirl (4 May 2014)

Greyhounds are one of the oldest breeds I believe and bred for hunting, as someone else said any that were not up to the mark were culled and were not allowed to breed. 

Just an observation one thing I've noticed about Greyhounds they have enormous problems with their teeth, I was told this was because of the mush they were fed in kennels but I would have thought racing Greyhounds needed to be fed the very best so as to get the very best out of them. Having said that even the ones that were not raced or bred to race still had very poor teeth compared to most other breeds.


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## Alec Swan (4 May 2014)

Dobiegirl said:



			.......

Just an observation one thing I've noticed about Greyhounds they have enormous problems with their teeth, I was told this was because of the mush they were fed in kennels but I would have thought racing Greyhounds needed to be fed the very best so as to get the very best out of them. .......
		
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'deleted',  but;  The simple fact is that dogs in training,  really don't need teeth.  A correct diet,  from your viewpoint,  wouldn't get the best from a racing dog.

Alec.


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## Fides (4 May 2014)

Alec - what do you think of Saluki lurchers?

Here is my boy







He has had his dew claws off and does tend to fall over when cornering 

My other boy still has his claws but has lost his tail at 2 years old due to an accident  It was awful and it took him a long time to learn to rebalance. I keep his claws longer than my vet is comfortable with for this reason - without his rudder he needs to dig in...


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## Dobiegirl (4 May 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			'deleted',  but;  The simple fact is that dogs in training,  really don't need teeth.  A correct diet,  from your viewpoint,  wouldn't get the best from a racing dog.

Alec.
		
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http://www.greyhoundvets.co.uk/pdf/...formance John Kohnke  SGV Conference 2012.pdf


This is a very good article by an Australian vet who has been studying this very subject.


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## Fides (4 May 2014)

A few flying dog pics just cause...













He's such a happy dog!


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## blackcob (4 May 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			As a breed,  and from the health perspective,  they are mostly problem free.  Any thoughts,  anyone,  as to why?
		
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My best guess - like other breeds that were (and still are) purpose bred for working or sport only sound winning dogs make it in to a breeding programme. Unsound or unsuccessful dogs are dropped from training and either culled or nowadays are neutered and rehomed. No time, money or genetic material is expended on anything less than a 100% prime example. 

As soon as a breed enters the show scene or pet breeding market that goes swiftly down the pan!


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## Dry Rot (4 May 2014)

The worst thing that can happen to any breed of domestic livestock is to become popular. Very quickly, all and sundry jump on the breeding band wagon and anything that can breed is bred from so the progeny can be sold on again at a premium price as yet more breeding stock!


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## Clodagh (4 May 2014)

Greyhounds are probably like foxhounds and the unsound ones don't get bred from.

I had my saluki lurchers dewclaws removed as she kept half ripping them off. A friend, who used to course a lot, told me you shouldn't though as they use them when cornering. (Having read the whole thread I see that has been said quite a few times! Mind you my lurcher killed so many hares that any way of slowing her up was a plus).


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## Irishdan (4 May 2014)

blackcob said:



			My best guess - like other breeds that were (and still are) purpose bred for working or sport only sound winning dogs make it in to a breeding programme. Unsound or unsuccessful dogs are dropped from training and either culled or nowadays are neutered and rehomed. No time, money or genetic material is expended on anything less than a 100% prime example. 

As soon as a breed enters the show scene or pet breeding market that goes swiftly down the pan!
		
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Couldnt agree more


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## Spring Feather (4 May 2014)

I wouldn't dream of having dew claws removed from my dogs.  2 of my dogs are a breed who have double hind dew claws which helps them do their job imo.


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## Irishdan (4 May 2014)

As a professional Dog Groomer I see a lot of smaller breeds, such as Shih Tzus,  which have rear dew claws.  Due to the length of hair and , sadly, owner ignorance, they are often overlooked and the nail curls and grows into the flesh causing a lot of pain and discomfort.  Rear ones and double rear ones are generally the worst offenders


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## Fides (4 May 2014)

[video]http://s252.photobucket.com/user/l34nn3_k4ut/media/IMG_1014_zps925a954f.mp4.html[/video]

A short (5 second) vid of just how a grey can shift!!


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## Leo Walker (4 May 2014)

People dont really understand unless they see them at full pelt. People are always telling me mine are really fast when they are doing the equivalent of a slow canter, lol. When I let mine go for lure racing the kick back is unbelievable! and hes 21TTS and mainly whippet. If they do an unexpected fly by its amazing! And Greys are a whole different kettle of fish!


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## FinnishLapphund (4 May 2014)

FrankieCob said:



			Really?? These 2 are my first foray into sighthounds but they do it ALL the time! Until this post I just thought all dogs would do it if they could  Mine do it a lot! Not every day that I notice but several times a month that I witness. I've only ever registered it as its such a careful and graceful movement that it catches my eye 

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FrankieCob said:



			Thinking about it, the last spaniel I had did it as well, but with less grace  I think I've only noticed as its such a careful and obvious thing for them to do. Surely my dogs cant be that unusual?  Actually maybe they are?  ...
		
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I'm sure that your dogs are amazing FrankieCob, but I don't think they're that unusual. I've had 1 Norwegian Buhund, 1 crossbreed, 1 Smooth Collie, and a second Norwegian Buhund, before the 3 Finnish Lapphunds that I have now, and I've seen all of them use their front dew claw to groom themselves, and ditto what 2Greys said "scratch their heads and like an extra grip on chews". I haven't noticed how often I've seen it/are seeing it, but it happens every now and then. By the way, I can't recall that I've, this far, ever noticed that anyone of them has gotten grass or similar stuck between a dew claw and the leg.

Several years ago, my late Smooth Collie, who not only had both front and rear dew claws, without also had dew claws which was somewhat loosely attached to the legs, once managed to injure one of her "normal" front claws. She was 13 years old when she died, and never had a problem with her dew claws.

But one of my Finnish Lapphunds injured a dew claw some years ago (front, she's born without rear dew claws), even though that it sits very tightly attached to the leg. I'm not sure how it happened, she didn't yelp or anything, but she's both a little clumsy and easily becomes absent-minded, and I strongly suspect that it happened when she was too busy looking at something in a rocky area in the garden, and forgot to think about what her legs was doing.   

So, touch wood, I bought my first bitch 1990, they've all had front dew claws and that is the only dew claw accident they've had (this far). Not even when the injury had happened, did it cross my mind to want to remove her dew claws. I saw it as a pure accident, where she could just as well had injured the paw, one of the other claws, or the leg, instead, it just happened to be the dew claw.


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## FinnishLapphund (4 May 2014)

Lévrier;12439308 said:
			
		


			Prompted by the small white greyhound trying to remove one of her dew claws when running through the woods yesterday - she is very stoical so we only noticed when there were blood stains all over the dog bed when we got home! Luckily it isn't bad enough to need the dew claw removing, but for anyone who thinks they should be left on - please don't 

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Regardless of our different views about removing dew claws, I hope your girl is soon well again. (((Vibes)))


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## {97702} (5 May 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			You'll learn a lot about dogs in the next 30 years!   The first 27 is just the apprenticeship.

If dew claws are of no use to a dog, why is it most wild canids have them? If they are such a hindrance, they must all be heading for extinction. (That's assuming you accept Darwin's theory of evolution, of course).

This reminds me of the post by the young vet who declared that dog saliva was full of nasty bacteria and should never be allowed near a wound. So it might be, but it is also a very good antiseptic. If it wasn't, an awful lot of animals that lick their wounds would have become extinct years ago. A lot of these questions can be answered with simple logic. A dog's paws are not very well designed for wiping their faces, which explains why dew claws are located where they are (and why the hairs on a dogs face lie as they do), on the side of the paw. They are also useful when climbing up steep inclines and gripping, as has been mentioned. Dog breeding has produced many breeds that are far removed from a natural shape so it isn't so unreasonable that some natural adaptations are no longer useful (tails on spaniels?). But personally I would not remove dew claws.

My lurchers used to get torn on barbed wire regularly when chasing rabbits and hares. But then maybe you don't have much barbed wire in that wood of yours? Or perhaps they don't hunt?
		
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What an exceedingly patronising reply DryRot - I said I had had sighthounds for 27 years, I have had dogs for all of my 44 years and have the benefit of a mother (now in her 70s) who has had dogs all her life and has undoubtedly forgotten more than you will ever know 

AlecSwan also shows his ignorance of greyhounds by stating they are free from genetic disorders - they are extremely prone to dental problems (as said already been said) and also are regular sufferers of bone cancer, a fact well known amongst breed experts.


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## Alec Swan (5 May 2014)

FinnishLapphund said:



			........ By the way, I can't recall that I've, this far, ever noticed that anyone of them has gotten grass or similar stuck between a dew claw and the leg.

........
		
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If you watch any sight-hound,  when they gallop,  either in play or work,  you will notice that they 'lay' at what appear to be the most impossible angles,  as they put in tight turns,  almost as racing motor cyclists do,  when on race-tracks,  and it's when,  flat to the boards,  they are attempting to turn,  that they will use their dew claws to gain additional grip.  That's when they are most likely to collect debris.  I'm quite sure that I'll be corrected by the more experienced,  but it's only sight-hounds and their derivatives which I've ever really noticed that do it.

We have a near neighbour,  an otherwise delightful lady,  who has two retired track dogs,  and they are never allowed off the lead.  It must be like keeping a still young but retired TB in a stable,  and for the rest of it's life.  I see it as being rather thoughtless and cruel,  but each to their own!!

Alec.


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## Amicus (5 May 2014)

Lévrier;12441353 said:
			
		


			they are extremely prone to dental problems (as said already been said) and also are regular sufferers of bone cancer, a fact well known amongst breed experts.
		
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Fair enough about the bone cancer but surely the dental issues are environmental rather than genetic? I was under the impression that racers are fed their food as slop to aid re-hydration which would unfortunately not do anything to promote healthy teeth.


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## Alec Swan (5 May 2014)

Amicus said:



			Fair enough about the bone cancer but surely the dental issues are environmental rather than genetic? I was under the impression that racers are fed their food as slop to aid re-hydration which would unfortunately not do anything to promote healthy teeth.
		
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Common sense and reason very rarely prevail on here!

It would be unlikely that dental problems which are in reality affected by diet,  were hereditary,  as I've never had any problems with dogs kept on a more conventional diet.

Alec.


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## cptrayes (5 May 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			This reminds me of the post by the young vet who declared that dog saliva was full of nasty bacteria and should never be allowed near a wound. So it might be, but it is also a very good antiseptic. If it wasn't, an awful lot of animals that lick their wounds would have become extinct years ago.
		
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My recollection of that thread is that almost all posters except you agreed with the vet that a licked wound in a wild animal is better than a dirty wound, but not a patch on a sterile wound which a domestic animal is prevented from licking.



I know nothing about dew claws, though


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## Alec Swan (5 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			My recollection of that thread is that almost all posters except you agreed with the vet that a licked wound in a wild animal is better than a dirty wound, but not a patch on a sterile wound which a domestic animal is prevented from licking.



.......
		
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I don't remember the thread concerned,  and whether there could be any validation to the argument that a wound heals as quickly,  un-covered and being kept clean by a dog's own efforts,  or whether a sterile covering would be preferred,  would be a rather moot point,  but I will say that apart from when dogs attempt to remove their own stitches,  it's quite surprising how often a wound which is kept 'clean'(_sic_) by a dog's own efforts,  really does seem to heal that much quicker.  Note:  I used the word 'Seem'!

Considering what dogs do with their tongues,  the revolting things that many will eat,  and their general level of oral hygiene (which must be considered non-existant!),  one would imagine that the inside of a dog's mouth would be a caldron of bacteria,  wouldn't we?  The truth though is that dogs are very often their own best doctors,  and I'm as surprised as you!

Alec.


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## Dry Rot (5 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			My recollection of that thread is that almost all posters except you agreed with the vet that a licked wound in a wild animal is better than a dirty wound, but not a patch on a sterile wound which a domestic animal is prevented from licking.



I know nothing about dew claws, though 

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I wouldn't know, I left the thread soon after as it was beginning to get boring.

That poster was trying to tell me that allowing a dog to lick a wound was in some way harmful. I cannot recall seeing any counter argument that it was preferable to interfere.  I pointed out that if it was indeed harmful for an animal to lick a wound (and most do), over millennia those that did so would have died out leaving those that did *not* lick their wounds to prosper and breed -- but that hasn't happened yet!

I am all for logical discussion but find it annoying to be shouted down by those who don't agree and who cannot come up with a reasoned and convincing counter argument. I thought that was what a university education was meant to teach? 

As regards the removal of dew claws, they are present in most wild canids and I've never felt the need to remove them. Where a breed has been changed by breeders from what I would call a "normal" shape, perhaps there is a need. But that choice if best left to their owners. I've noticed the dew claw being brought into use when a dog tries to claw it's way up a steep incline and they do use that part of the foot when cleaning/grooming their faces and ears.


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## planete (5 May 2014)

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He still has his dew claws, no problems.  Watching them run is indeed a treat!


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## Alec Swan (5 May 2014)

planete,  yes,  and that's why we keep them,  don't we?  

Stunning pics,  just stunning.  He's(?) got a fair bit of back,  and he does look rather 'well',  but a particularly handsome animal.  He's so like our boy Dave!  I can't post pics.  I would that I could!!

Alec.


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## dogatemysalad (5 May 2014)

Planete. Superb pictures, thanks for posting them. Glad he has his dew claws too.


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## FinnishLapphund (5 May 2014)

FinnishLapphund said:



			...  By the way, I can't recall that I've, this far, ever noticed that anyone of them has gotten grass or similar stuck between a dew claw and the leg.
...
		
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Alec Swan said:



			If you watch any sight-hound,  when they gallop,  either in play or work,  you will notice that they 'lay' at what appear to be the most impossible angles,  as they put in tight turns,  almost as racing motor cyclists do,  when on race-tracks,  and it's when,  flat to the boards,  they are attempting to turn,  that they will use their dew claws to gain additional grip.  That's when they are most likely to collect debris.  I'm quite sure that I'll be corrected by the more experienced,  but it's only sight-hounds and their derivatives which I've ever really noticed that do it.
...
		
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I remember when my two Buhunds lived, when they played catch me if you can with various other dogs, including some different sighthounds (so I've seen some run), my bitches often seemed to be almost uncatchable, due to their ability to, sort of, bounce sideways and/or quickly change direction in extremely tight turns.  
At the time, I never thought about if they used their dew claws when doing their tight turns, but I suddenly remembered, that I always hoped that they used their dew claws as an extra aid, on the occasions when they did their best alpine ibex impersonation (they were quite good at climbing). 

Anyhow, I did not intend to make it sound as if I don't understand how other dogs can get things, e.g. grass, stuck between a dew claw and the leg, but according to what I've read and heard before, it isn't specifically a potential risk only for sighthounds, without any dog regardless of breed which have dew claws could potentially get something stuck between a dew claw and the leg. So therefore, I wanted to say that I can't recall that I've noticed that it has ever happened to any of my bitches (this far).


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## Leo Walker (5 May 2014)

I think its a sighthound thing! People genuinely dont understand how fast they go and how sharp the turns are until they have one! Even when we are just playing fetch in the park, mine go at full speed and if the ball bounces they can literally turn on a knife edge! My dog is only 21 TTS but hes still caught up with hares who zig zag all over the place! He doesnt run in a straight line even when playing. He runs on a curve, and if theres something hes chasing he does knife edge turns. Full 360s even when hes flat out. I assume its bred into them as if he was catching food for the pot as a living he'd have to be sharp and athletic to do it


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## Fides (5 May 2014)

FrankieCob said:



			I think its a sighthound thing! People genuinely dont understand how fast they go and how sharp the turns are until they have one! Even when we are just playing fetch in the park, mine go at full speed and if the ball bounces they can literally turn on a knife edge! My dog is only 21 TTS but hes still caught up with hares who zig zag all over the place! He doesnt run in a straight line even when playing. He runs on a curve, and if theres something hes chasing he does knife edge turns. Full 360s even when hes flat out. I assume its bred into them as if he was catching food for the pot as a living he'd have to be sharp and athletic to do it 

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It's amazing to watch isn't it? If you take photos - some of the angles they get themselves into just seem to deny gravity!


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## Leo Walker (5 May 2014)

Fides said:



			It's amazing to watch isn't it? If you take photos - some of the angles they get themselves into just seem to deny gravity!
		
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My heart literally sings watching them! I'm fat and disabled so watching my 2 run for the sheer joy of running literally takes my breath away! I can be limping and lurching along and then I let them off and its poetry in motion!


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## {97702} (6 May 2014)

Amicus said:



			Fair enough about the bone cancer but surely the dental issues are environmental rather than genetic? I was under the impression that racers are fed their food as slop to aid re-hydration which would unfortunately not do anything to promote healthy teeth.
		
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That is definitely a factor for ex-racing greyhounds, but poor teeth are also a genetic thing - e.g. some lines of dogs within my mum's breed have worse teeth than others


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## {97702} (6 May 2014)

FinnishLapphund said:



			Regardless of our different views about removing dew claws, I hope your girl is soon well again. (((Vibes)))
		
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Thanks FL    She is doing fine at the moment and is (amazingly) leaving it alone so fingers crossed it is healing nicely


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## {97702} (6 May 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			As regards the removal of dew claws, they are present in most wild canids and I've never felt the need to remove them. Where a breed has been changed by breeders from what I would call a "normal" shape, perhaps there is a need. But that choice if best left to their owners. I've noticed the dew claw being brought into use when a dog tries to claw it's way up a steep incline and they do use that part of the foot when cleaning/grooming their faces and ears.
		
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To me that is the equivalent of saying that horses still have ergots, or humans still have an appendix - yes, they do, but domesticated versions of animals (or humans themselves) have evolved to the extent where those attributes are no longer needed?  

Perhaps my dogs should just think themselves fortunate that we don't live in a particularly hilly area of the country - and no, nor do we encounter barbed wire on our walks


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## planete (6 May 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			planete,  yes,  and that's why we keep them,  don't we?  

Stunning pics,  just stunning.  He's(?) got a fair bit of back,  and he does look rather 'well',  but a particularly handsome animal.  He's so like our boy Dave!  I can't post pics.  I would that I could!!

Alec.
		
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Thanks for the comments. He does look 'well'.  He is certainly not working fit,  I am too old and decrepit to put in the hours and the miles!


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## FinnishLapphund (6 May 2014)

Lévrier;12442891 said:
			
		


			Thanks FL    She is doing fine at the moment and is (amazingly) leaving it alone so fingers crossed it is healing nicely 

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 Glad to hear that it is healing well .

Fingers crossed for that it continues that way.


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## {97702} (6 May 2014)

LOL love the smiley as usual FL   I can see this thread is descending into the ridiculous as usual when certain users get involved, so I won't bother posting on it again - oh for the good old days of AAD lol


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## FinnishLapphund (6 May 2014)

FrankieCob said:



			I think its a sighthound thing! People genuinely dont understand how fast they go and how sharp the turns are until they have one! Even when we are just playing fetch in the park, mine go at full speed and if the ball bounces they can literally turn on a knife edge! My dog is only 21 TTS but hes still caught up with hares who zig zag all over the place! He doesnt run in a straight line even when playing. He runs on a curve, and if theres something hes chasing he does knife edge turns. Full 360s even when hes flat out. I assume its bred into them as if he was catching food for the pot as a living he'd have to be sharp and athletic to do it 

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No, I haven't owned a sighthound, and I willingly admit that I don't know if the ones that I've met have been good or less fortunate examples of their breed/breed group, but as said, I've seen some run and play (one of the main goals for my old dog club, was to provide an opportunity for good dog socialization with lots of different breeds), and I'm just basing my reply on what I've experienced. 

Norwegian Buhunds was developed to be able to e.g. herd goats up and down steep cliffsides in Norwegian fjords. I would describe their tight turns, as that they're also capable of making fast turns on a knife edge. Even though I have deep respect for dogs capable of catching a wild hare, if Norwegian fjords doesn't count as knife edges, what does? 

As I remember it (my last Buhund died 2008, so it's been a few years since I've seen it), my Buhunds usually did their fastest tight turns by, sort of, bouncing up and start to turn in the air, but I can't recall having thought about if they did or didn't use their dewclaws as an aid when they landed and finished the turn. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't, I don't know.
I agree that watching sighthounds run, can be like seeing poetry in motion, and I'm sure a Buhund would lose in a real Greyhound race on a track. But since they're smaller than most sighthounds breeds, it to me looked as if they needed less distance to reach their top speed. So when the sighthounds they've played with has managed to reach their top speed, and do their fast, tight turns in a higher top speed, I sometimes only saw it in the corner of my eyes, because my Buhunds had often already turned around and was heading in another direction.

Maybe there is a specific sighthound way to lean and use their dewclaws as an aid in a tight turn, but I can't change the fact that I've read about other breeds using their dewclaws in some situations too, sometimes leading to them getting debris stuck on their dewclaws. 
E.g. I've read this page about  Boxers, http://www.old.euro-boxer.com/study/pet_level/boxer_exercise/boxer_puppy_exercise.html, it is about puppies and exercise, but it also mentions dewclaws:
(Quote) Additional evidence comes from the fact that working dogs will get grass and dirt stuck in the dewclaws, indicating that they are being used, and from photos showing the dog's foot on the ground and the dewclaw dug into the ground. The pressures on the dog's foot are the same, but if there is no dewclaw there to grip the ground, the pressures will go to the elbow, the other toes, the wrist, the shoulder possibly causing unsoundness and arthritis later on. Gratefully, most Boxer breeders in Europe recognize the important function of dewclaws and don't remove them.(/quote)

Since I thought it was fascinating to hear that  2Greys had read 


2Greys said:



			... an article in the past about agility dogs were it was suggested those minus dew claws were more suseptible to (I think) carpal injury instead...
		
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I did a search, but I didn't find the article. But I did e.g. find this page http://retrieverman.net/2013/08/14/the-purpose-of-dewclaws/ where one response says  that "Coursing dogs (and others) use their dewclaws in cornering and braking. Agility dogs use their dewclaws in gripping, turning, braking."  And this page http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art1863.asp, where it says that "Dogs that regularly compete in agility or work as herding dogs have also been shown to use their dewclaws for practical applications." 

I also found this page http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/dewclawexplanation_rev_apr_10_2013.pdf 

I don't know if what I've quoted from the links is correct or not, but I feel lazy, so instead of going through my dog  books to find where I've read about dogs of different breeds using their dewclaws, I'm just using the above as examples of what I've read and heard before this thread.

Lastly, I've not intended to say that I know that none of my bitches has definitely never gotten any debris stuck between a dewclaw and the leg. Maybe they have, and have cleaned it away themselves, before I saw it, or maybe I have at some time during about 24 years of dog owning found some debris stuck on a dewclaw, removed it and forgot about it.


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## FinnishLapphund (6 May 2014)

Lévrier;12443153 said:
			
		


			LOL love the smiley as usual FL   I can see this thread is descending into the ridiculous as usual when certain users get involved, so I won't bother posting on it again - oh for the good old days of AAD lol  

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In general, I don't mind people having a different opinion than mine, as long as I do not have to agree with them. My biggest problem is usually to stop trying to explain why I think the way I do.


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## {97702} (6 May 2014)

FinnishLapphund said:



			In general, I don't mind people having a different opinion than mine, as long as I do not have to agree with them. My biggest problem is usually to stop trying to explain why I think the way I do.
		
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I dont mind people having a different opinion than mine, as long as they know what they are talking about.  Which generally they don't in some cases


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## Fides (6 May 2014)

Lévrier;12442896 said:
			
		


			To me that is the equivalent of saying that horses still have ergots, or humans still have an appendix - yes, they do, but domesticated versions of animals (or humans themselves) have evolved to the extent where those attributes are no longer needed?  

Perhaps my dogs should just think themselves fortunate that we don't live in a particularly hilly area of the country - and no, nor do we encounter barbed wire on our walks 

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I thought ergots were what kept the back legs together in the womb (and chestnuts the fronts)?



			
				Lévrier;12443349 said:
			
		


			I dont mind people having a different opinion than mine, as long as they know what they are talking about.  Which generally they don't in some cases 

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 That is your opinion


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## {97702} (6 May 2014)

Fides said:



			I thought ergots were what kept the back legs together in the womb (and chestnuts the fronts)?



 That is your opinion 

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Wikipedia (which of course is always right  ) says "the ergot is thought to be a vestige of some part of the ancestral foot of the multi-toed Equidae" - it doesn't serve any useful function any more.  

Indeed it is my opinion....but then I know who I would rather belong to if I were a greyhound


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## Alec Swan (6 May 2014)

Lévrier;12443153 said:
			
		


			LOL love the smiley as usual FL   I can see this thread is descending into the ridiculous as usual when certain users get involved, so I won't bother posting on it again - oh for the good old days of AAD lol  

Click to expand...




			
				Lévrier;12443349 said:
			
		


			I dont mind people having a different opinion than mine, as long as they know what they are talking about.  Which generally they don't in some cases 

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Why are you so aggressive?  Why is it that when you choose to contradict someone,  you refer to them,  as being ignorant?  I rarely reply to your irrational tirades,  because there seems little point.  I would point out to you though,  that I am not ignorant,  my experience with dogs is such that though I feel a degree of confidence,  I'm more than happy to learn from a child.  Your apparent aggression would suggest that you too could benefit by listening to others.

Were the 'Good old days of AAD',  those days when others didn't contradict you,  and point out that your mostly irrational outbursts,  contributed nothing to the relevant discussion?

Your continual refusal to accept any points made by Dry Rot,  really does your credibility little in the way of favours.  Rarely would I take the side of another,  and I hope that this doesn't embarrass D_R,  but I can assure you that not only is he a Qualified Vet,  but though now a man of advancing years,  in his day,  he trained English Pointers,  extensively,  he made up many Field Trial Champions,  in itself no mean feat,  and also many to International level.  Amongst the most fierce of competition,  he held his own and succeeded,  and importantly,  he held the respect of his peers.  

Greyhounds,  Pointers,  GSDs,  Sheepdogs,  Labradors and Poodles,  are all dogs.  They will probably have breed traits which need to be worked around,  BUT;  A dog is a dog,  and with a few variances,  most canines think alike.  Some will be more tractable than others,  but if we accept that an understanding of the canine thought processes,  MUST be the precursor to working with the animal itself,  then Dry Rot's opinions,  are worth listening to.  With the greatest respect to you,  I'd suggest that instead of arguing that 2+2=5,  that perhaps you make the attempt to listen.  

I do hope Levrier,  that you will accept that this thread is not an attack upon your person,  but an attempt to encourage you to consider the views of those who do actually know what they're talking about.  The other option,  of course,  is to place those with whom you seem to have such problems,  on User Ignore.

I'm offering the above thoughts in a kindly manner,  and I hope that that's how you accept them.

Alec.


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## Spring Feather (6 May 2014)

Lévrier;12443349 said:
			
		


			I dont mind people having a different opinion than mine, as long as they know what they are talking about.  Which generally they don't in some cases 

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But you see this is where I'm confused; you said you'd never seen a dog using it's front dew claws; that I find a very odd comment to make because I've never seen a dog not use it's front dew claws.  My dogs use theirs for holding things, climbing, scratching, motability etc.


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## Fides (6 May 2014)

Lévrier;12443436 said:
			
		


			Wikipedia (which of course is always right  ) says "the ergot is thought to be a vestige of some part of the ancestral foot of the multi-toed Equidae" - it doesn't serve any useful function any more.  

Indeed it is my opinion....but then I know who I would rather belong to if I were a greyhound  

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My statement was somewhat rhetorical as I have witnessed several birthings now and seen how the foals come out with their legs attached together.

Also what an odd point to make how greyhounds would be happier with you - can you qualify that please?

Alec - I agree with your point wholeheartedly. This poster has got my back up... For what end?

S_F - mine use their dew claws all the time too, and the one that doesn't have them frequently falls over or crashes into things due to not being able to corner properly


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## {97702} (6 May 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			But you see this is where I'm confused; you said you'd never seen a dog using it's front dew claws; that I find a very odd comment to make because I've never seen a dog not use it's front dew claws.  My dogs use theirs for holding things, climbing, scratching, motability etc.
		
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I am not sure why that causes you confusion - I haven't seen it, you have.  I thought that was quite straightforward?


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## {97702} (6 May 2014)

Fides said:



			My statement was somewhat rhetorical as I have witnessed several birthings now and seen how the foals come out with their legs attached together.

Also what an odd point to make how greyhounds would be happier with you - can you qualify that please?

Alec - I agree with your point wholeheartedly. This poster has got my back up... For what end?

S_F - mine use their dew claws all the time too, and the one that doesn't have them frequently falls over or crashes into things due to not being able to corner properly 

Click to expand...


Ahhh you see unfortunately I do not have a crystal ball and therefore didn't appreciate it was a rhetorical question, apologies in that case!  I'm not quite sure what qualification of my comment you are looking for however?  I am sorry you feel that I have "got your back up" this was not my intention with my original post, which was simply a minor rant about the unnecessary injury caused to my dog which could so easily be avoided by a responsible breeder.  As with every post on this forum, that was my opinion and I am free to articulate it if I wish to do so in the same way that others are free to disagree as some have done.  

Interestingly my largest greyhound chased a cat over tarmac/gravel the other day, he has done 5 1/2 years on the track so is pretty experienced and he was running flat out and cornering sharply on many occasions ... he came back with grazes on his hind legs between hocks and paws, his stopper pads raw and bleeding, the claws on all four feet scraped down to nothing so some of those were bleeding too..... and no damage or impact on his dew claws at all.


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## Fides (6 May 2014)

Lévrier;12443560 said:
			
		


			I'm not quite sure what qualification of my comment you are looking for however?  I am sorry you feel that I have "got your back up" this was not my intention with my original post,
		
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I was asking why you think a grey would have a better life with you than, say, me? 



			
				Lévrier;12443560 said:
			
		


			Interestingly my largest greyhound chased a cat over tarmac/gravel the other day, he has done 5 1/2 years on the track so is pretty experienced and he was running flat out and cornering sharply on many occasions ... he came back with grazes on his hind legs between hocks and paws, his stopper pads raw and bleeding, the claws on all four feet scraped down to nothing so some of those were bleeding too..... and no damage or impact on his dew claws at all.
		
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Odd.


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## {97702} (6 May 2014)

Fides said:



			I was asking why you think a grey would have a better life with you than, say, me?
		
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I wasn't referring to you when I made my original comment


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## Fides (6 May 2014)

Lévrier;12443614 said:
			
		


			I wasn't referring to you when I made my original comment
		
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Oh I wasn't implying you were, I just said '...say, me...' As I hold the opposing viewpoint to you so am curious as to what you could offer to my dogs, that I don't offer myself. The scientist in me means that I am always learning and have changed my views on things I have believed, when shown 'the errors of my ways'. For example my views on fox hunting have taken a complete 180. I want the best for my animals and would love to know any tips on improving how I keep them.


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## FinnishLapphund (6 May 2014)

In my first replies on this thread, I became one of those persons who wrongly writes a compound word, dewclaw, as two words 
	
	
		
		
	


	




. Could people please stop to tempt me to fall back in that pattern, or give me an example on why Wiktionary and Google translate are wrong, and dewclaw is in fact not a compound word, without correctly spelled with two words. 


Even though I've in some situations sometimes noticed that my bitches uses their dewclaws, there is also situations where they might be using them, but I'm still completely oblivious to whether they use them or not. I presume that if my bitches had had more problems with their dewclaws, I might very well have agreed with Lévrier, and also said get rid of them. 

I hope that day never comes, but if it comes a day when I would not want to be a dog that lived in my home, it is the day it's time for me to stop owning dogs.

ETA: I don't think that there is only one perfect way of owning dogs. I know owners who do things different than me, but I don't automatically think that either of us have to be doing something wrong, without I think that there is room for individual differences.


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## {97702} (6 May 2014)

I was suggesting that as a greyhound I would rather belong to me than other forum users who have been documented as saying that (for example) they don't worm their puppies, that they think a dog needs to know who is boss & can be trained by fear and intimidation and who appear to think that every bitch should be bred from purely because it has a womb.


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## Fides (6 May 2014)

Lévrier;12443671 said:
			
		


			I was suggesting that as a greyhound I would rather belong to me than other forum users who have been documented as saying that (for example) they don't worm their puppies, that they think a dog needs to know who is boss & can be trained by fear and intimidation and who appear to think that every bitch should be bred from purely because it has a womb.
		
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This has no relevance to the thread


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## {97702} (6 May 2014)

It has every relevance to the point I was making in that particular post, which was whether I respect the opinions of certain forum users and whether I feel they know what they are talking about. I fully appreciate that there are differences of opinions about dew claws, that much is clear


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## Dobiegirl (6 May 2014)

Gordon Flipping Bennet, what is wrong with you all, the girl was having a rant fgs, we've all had those, some people on here take themselves far too seriously and when people start to talk down to people and be arrogant what do you expect the reaction is going to be?


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## bonny (6 May 2014)

Dobiegirl said:



			Gordon Flipping Bennet, what is wrong with you all, the girl was having a rant fgs, we've all had those, some people on here take themselves far too seriously and when people start to talk down to people and be arrogant what do you expect the reaction is going to be?
		
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My thoughts exactly, Levrier knows her dogs and is entitled to just have a rant if she wants one !


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## Clodagh (6 May 2014)

Fides said:



			I thought ergots were what kept the back legs together in the womb (and chestnuts the fronts)?
		
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You are joking, aren't you? I'm being slow tonight - need more wine!


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## Alec Swan (6 May 2014)

Dobiegirl said:



			Gordon Flipping Bennet, what is wrong with you all, the girl was having a rant fgs, we've all had those, some people on here take themselves far too seriously and when people start to talk down to people and be arrogant what do you expect the reaction is going to be?
		
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I agree with you,  entirely,  and I think that it's a great shame when AAD,  such a usually friendly thread,  declines in to one of personal insults,  whether we agree,  or not.  

Perhaps it might be an idea for you to take 'the girl',  as you refer to her,  on one side and point out that her rudeness and her insults which have been aimed at others,  and for some while now,  could be perhaps reduced in their focus.  It seems to me that 'the girl',  by her spite and her discredit of others,  rather brings the criticisms upon herself.  

Me?  Mostly I ignore her silly asides,  but if you wont tell her,  then others will.  Again,  a sad day for AAD,  but for how long do others tolerate her rudeness?  Veiled,  or on occasion open insults can only be tolerated for so long.  

Eventually the recipients of her constant sniping will decide that enough's enough.  I would that there was another way.

Alec.


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## Fides (6 May 2014)

Clodagh said:



			You are joking, aren't you? I'm being slow tonight - need more wine!
		
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Nope I'm not... 

Sheep don't have them and quite frequently they will be born with a leg back requiring human intervention. As the chestnuts on foals are fused together this doesn't happen (or rarely).

cant find the fab pic I had of it


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## Dry Rot (6 May 2014)

Just a bit of an aside really as I couldn't care two hoots who cuts dew claws/dewclaws off their dogs, but is this a permitted surgical procedure under the veterinary surgeons act or something that may only be performed by a vet? I think tail docking now has to be done by a vet and i suspect the old fashioned cropping of ears in some breeds is also prohibited, (a) because it is surgery, and (b) the vet won't do it anyway if it's for cosmetic reasons!

And before I am dragged out and burnt at the stake, I don't cut dew claws/dewclaws, dock tails, and I certainly don't crop ears!

For the record, I too am grateful that the OP isn't my dog, so that's at least two of us happy! As for the spelling of dew-claws, the correct version is the one that clearly and concisely gets the meaning across. English is a living language and is in a constant state of change. 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean &#8212; neither more nor less.'' Quite rightly so  too!


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## {97702} (6 May 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			For the record, I too am grateful that the OP isn't my dog, so that's at least two of us happy!
		
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I am so pleased to read that....although I suspect you do not do the things I have listed above either....


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## {97702} (6 May 2014)

Dobiegirl said:



			Gordon Flipping Bennet, what is wrong with you all, the girl was having a rant fgs, we've all had those, some people on here take themselves far too seriously and when people start to talk down to people and be arrogant what do you expect the reaction is going to be?
		
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LOL DG thank you - but I think this will fall on deaf ears to some extent


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## Dobiegirl (6 May 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			I agree with you,  entirely,  and I think that it's a great shame when AAD,  such a usually friendly thread,  declines in to one of personal insults,  whether we agree,  or not.  

Perhaps it might be an idea for you to take 'the girl',  as you refer to her,  on one side and point out that her rudeness and her insults which have been aimed at others,  and for some while now,  could be perhaps reduced in their focus.  It seems to me that 'the girl',  by her spite and her discredit of others,  rather brings the criticisms upon herself.  

Me?  Mostly I ignore her silly asides,  but if you wont tell her,  then others will.  Again,  a sad day for AAD,  but for how long do others tolerate her rudeness?  Veiled,  or on occasion open insults can only be tolerated for so long.  

Eventually the recipients of her constant sniping will decide that enough's enough.  I would that there was another way.

Alec.
		
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Are you reading the same thread as me? Im being really kind now but that is a very patronising and condescending post, as far as Im aware Levrier dosnt post much on here so for her to constantly snipe at others would be an impossibility. Ive disagreed with her in the past but as adults  we have agreed to disagree, some views we share and others we dont which is what a forum should be about. I havnt noticed her rudeness, She did say several pages back that you were ignorant of Greyhound genetics, that is not the same as calling you ignorant in fact I could say the same of me, my knowledge of Greyhound genetics is  woefully inadequate hence my ignorance on the subject. 

You make the op to be the source of AAds troubles which she isnt, I remember you asking SusieT if she was drunk, now that is rude, stop making a mountain out of a molehill.


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## minesadouble (6 May 2014)

Fides said:



			Nope I'm not... 
I
Sheep don't have them and quite frequently they will be born with a leg back requiring human intervention. As the chestnuts on foals are fused together this doesn't happen (or rarely).

cant find the fab pic I had of it 

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I may be ignorant when it comes to the pros and cons of leaving dewclaws on dogs (and have read the discussion with interest) but I do know for definite that chestnuts on foals in utero are not fused together.


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## Alec Swan (6 May 2014)

Dobiegirl said:



			Are you reading the same thread as me? Im being really kind now but that is a very patronising and condescending post, .......
		
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Offence is taken,  and not offered.  It was an attempt at bridge building,  perhaps not a pearl,  but waisted,  none the less.

Alec.


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## FinnishLapphund (6 May 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			Just a bit of an aside really as I couldn't care two hoots who cuts dew claws/dewclaws off their dogs, but is this a permitted surgical procedure under the veterinary surgeons act or something that may only be performed by a vet? I think tail docking now has to be done by a vet and i suspect the old fashioned cropping of ears in some breeds is also prohibited, (a) because it is surgery, and (b) the vet won't do it anyway if it's for cosmetic reasons!

And before I am dragged out and burnt at the stake, I don't cut dew claws/dewclaws, dock tails, and I certainly don't crop ears!

For the record, I too am grateful that the OP isn't my dog, so that's at least two of us happy! As for the spelling of dew-claws, the correct version is the one that clearly and concisely gets the meaning across. English is a living language and is in a constant state of change. 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean  neither more nor less.'' Quite rightly so  too!
		
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The Kennel Club's site doesn't mention a veterinary surgeons act, instead as I understand it, it says that it is a permitted procedure listed in the Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) Regulations 2007, schedule 1.  In schedule 9 it is clarified that "a layperson or veterinary surgeon may continue to remove the dewclaws of puppies whose eyes have not yet opened." But as soon as the puppy have opened its eyes, dewclaw removal requires that "anaesthetic must be administered".


Language may evolve and change, but separating compound words means that according to Google translate, I've partly been talking about claws with dew on, not dewclaws. And if you ever need to use Google translate to translate a Swedish text, there is some difference between e.g. reading about a brown-haired nurse (brunhårig sjuksköterska), and a brown hairy sick nurse (brun hårig sjuk sköterska).


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## {97702} (6 May 2014)

FinnishLapphund said:



			The Kennel Club's site doesn't mention a veterinary surgeons act, instead as I understand it, it says that it is a permitted procedure listed in the Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) Regulations 2007, schedule 1.  In schedule 9 it is clarified that "a layperson or veterinary surgeon may continue to remove the dewclaws of puppies whose eyes have not yet opened." But as soon as the puppy have opened its eyes, dewclaw removal requires that "anaesthetic must be administered".


Language may evolve and change, but separating compound words means that according to Google translate, I've partly been talking about claws with dew on, not dewclaws. And if you ever need to use Google translate to translate a Swedish text, there is some difference between e.g. reading about a brown-haired nurse (brunhårig sjuksköterska), and a brown hairy sick nurse (brun hårig sjuk sköterska).
		
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That latter paragraph made me lol FL   

And you are quite correct, a layperson can remove dew claws in very young puppies - I have seen it done many times


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## TrasaM (6 May 2014)

I've  been following this thread and now I'm intrigued 

Anyone can remove a pups dew claws before it's eyes open ? Would seeing the blood traumatise it or what?  

Also I'm forever banging my little toe. Should I have it removed?

Lighten up people


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## vikkiandmonica (6 May 2014)

TrasaM said:



			I've  been following this thread and now I'm intrigued 

Anyone can remove a pups dew claws before it's eyes open ? Would seeing the blood traumatise it or what?  

Also I'm forever banging my little toe. Should I have it removed?

Lighten up people 

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I think removing the dewclaws without anesthetic when the puppies are tiny is akin to tiny babies being circumcised without anesthetic... Maybe it's because they just don't remember because they're so small when it happens? However, having been on work experience and seeing some small puppies get theirs removed (by a reluctant vet), they still seemed to feel the pain, judging by the sounds they made anyway  

As for your little toe, chop it off, though if you're planning on taking bends sharply you may fall over


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## TrasaM (6 May 2014)

Oh oh..I'm stuffed then. I usually bump them when I take corners too sharply now you tell me if I chop them off I'll fall over instead of hurting my ickle toe  
Oh dear..decisions decisions


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## MurphysMinder (6 May 2014)

vikkiandmonica said:



			I think removing the dewclaws without anesthetic when the puppies are tiny is akin to tiny babies being circumcised without anesthetic... Maybe it's because they just don't remember because they're so small when it happens? However, having been on work experience and seeing some small puppies get theirs removed (by a reluctant vet), they still seemed to feel the pain, judging by the sounds they made anyway  

As for your little toe, chop it off, though if you're planning on taking bends sharply you may fall over 

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Really?!  As I said earlier in this thread, I have seen rear dew claws removed on quite a few occasions (by a vet), and there has never been more than a slight squeak from the pup, and just a tiny drop of blood.  A clotting powder is applied and there is very little bleeding.  I have heard 2 day old pups make far more noise/fuss when mum accidentally knocks them off a teat.  They are usually ack feeding within seconds of the claw being removed.

I have learned something from this thread though, I don't know why but for some reason I thought Dry Rot had gone to RVC but had a change of mind about his choice of career and moved on to other things. Thanks for putting me right Alec.


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## CAYLA (6 May 2014)

I agree with DG, the OP was having a little rant and it has old blown out of proportion and I do agree the old age thing does come over patronising imo, it seems if you are not 90 plus then you know little about anything.
I have had lots of lurchers/greyhounds/whippets and still do (Im youngster though), (well compared to the ancients I am) I have had them both as pets and used for coursing (not me) but OH....my whippets all had dew claw issues inc my current whippet (one in particular) but he is a hard little thing and it does not seem to bother him to much when he injures it and as he does not bother/chew/lick so it heals pretty quick. 2 of my whippets had to be removed (both legs) as it was constant injury with long recovery times, esp when they proceeded to lick constantly and they where kept very short but still would almost tear them half out and yes I can concur I have noted mud and grass in the claws. 
I can also say dew claws (off) made no difference in their ability to turn or their speed of which I noted, the coated lurchers never really suffered this way (maybe all that extra hair on legs)? . I agree interestingly with the poster who said the surface on which the dog is running probably plays factor in injury sustained, like broken toes! 
I will give a stab at answering OP and say maybe greyhound men would not like the expense of removal/or be bothered to do it themselves, we all know racers get a pretty crappy innings! and running on sand probably equals no injury so I guess they see it as no big deal and I doubt they give a toss about when they go to pet homes and most will deem them dead dogs once their racing days are gone at the grand old age of 2 or 3.


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## CAYLA (6 May 2014)

TrasaM said:



			Oh oh..I'm stuffed then. I usually bump them when I take corners too sharply now you tell me if I chop them off I'll fall over instead of hurting my ickle toe  
Oh dear..decisions decisions 

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I would say chop it off...but becareful you don't start stubbing the next one in or your will have 1 big toe left


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## Dry Rot (6 May 2014)

FinnishLapphund said:



			The Kennel Club's site doesn't mention a veterinary surgeons act, instead as I understand it, it says that it is a permitted procedure listed in the Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) Regulations 2007, schedule 1.  In schedule 9 it is clarified that "a layperson or veterinary surgeon may continue to remove the dewclaws of puppies whose eyes have not yet opened." But as soon as the puppy have opened its eyes, dewclaw removal requires that "anaesthetic must be administered".


Language may evolve and change, but separating compound words means that according to Google translate, I've partly been talking about claws with dew on, not dewclaws. And if you ever need to use Google translate to translate a Swedish text, there is some difference between e.g. reading about a brown-haired nurse (brunhårig sjuksköterska), and a brown hairy sick nurse (brun hårig sjuk sköterska).
		
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Apart from the fact that I wouldn't believe anything the KC said, you will notice that I used no capital letters in the hope that someone else would do the research I couldn't be bothered to do! It worked! Many thanks.


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## Dry Rot (6 May 2014)

MurphysMinder said:



			Really?! 
I have learned something from this thread though, I don't know why but for some reason I thought Dry Rot had gone to RVC but had a change of mind about his choice of career and moved on to other things. Thanks for putting me right Alec.
		
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You are both incorrect. I was thrown out of the RVC , or rather jumped before I was pushed. One of the more sensible things I have done in my life and something I have never regretted for one moment. I could cope with the animals but not with the owners!

But Alec is correct about the dogs. I have been involved with working dogs at the deep end since my early teens.


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## Alec Swan (7 May 2014)

CAYLA said:



			...........my whippets all had dew claw issues inc my current whippet (one in particular) ....... and yes I can concur I have noted mud and grass in the claws. 

I can also say dew claws (off) made no difference in their ability to turn or their speed ........
		
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Too many anomalies to deal with;  You had whippets with dew claw issues,  you've noticed that dogs collect grass and debris under the offending dew claw,  and then  by all accounts,  the dew claws made no difference in their abilities.

Perhaps you could clarify things,  so that a geriatric can better understand.

Alec.


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## CAYLA (7 May 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			Too many anomalies to deal with;  You had whippets with dew claw issues,  you've noticed that dogs collect grass and debris under the offending dew claw,  and then  by all accounts,  the dew claws made no difference in their abilities.

Perhaps you could clarify things,  so that a geriatric can better understand.

A, my whippets have had dew claw issues (resulting in a few having them removed)
B, in regard to it being mentioned re witnessing muck/grass in dew claws and those who have noticed grass or mud in dew claws (I have too) so im saying "oh yeah, me to" said in an American style voice lol
C, I have not noted any change in my dogs ability to turn or their speed in doing so once dew claws off (an observation) from me, and another topic within this post, some mentioning the use of dew claws in turning, which of course it will indeed, so I mention (no negative) effects from mine being removed.

No deviation you see 


All of the above are related to topics covered in this post! in no particular order. I was not aware one of the elder rules was to mention only one topic per reply.
		
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## Alec Swan (7 May 2014)

Dobiegirl said:



			Are you reading the same thread as me? ......., She did say several pages back that you were ignorant of Greyhound genetics, that is not the same as calling you ignorant .......

You make the op to be the source of AAds troubles which she isnt, I remember you asking SusieT if she was drunk, now that is rude, stop making a mountain out of a molehill.
		
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				Lévrier;12441353 said:
			
		


			AlecSwan also shows his ignorance of greyhounds by stating they are free from genetic disorders - .......
		
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A few points for you;  Read the quoted post,  and you will see that Levrier believes than I'm ignorant of greyhounds.  At no point have I said that they are free from genetical disorders.  Read my posts and you will see that I believe the disorders to be 'Mostly',  limited.  I stand by that,  and any suggestion that they have genetic dental disorders,  is just nonsense.  *Greyhounds,  thankfully,  and despite the pressures upon them,  seem to be relatively free from genetic disorders. *Quote me again,  by all means,  but do try to stick to facts.

I haven't 'made' the op to be the source of AAd's troubles,  far from it.  What I have said is that she takes a surprisingly antagonistic stance to those who disagree with her.  Were the dear lady concerned,  prepared to read and to listen,  so her education may be advanced.

SusieT's offering?  My word but you have a memory,  and you're able to store ammunition,  or so it seems.  My suggestion that SusieT had been drinking,  was when she suggested that my working Cocker pups,  IN A HEAT WAVE,  AND IN JUNE,  could be cold!  It was a tongue in cheek offering,  so perhaps in future I'll be a little more circumspect,  assuming that I can be bothered.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (7 May 2014)

CAYLA said:





Alec Swan said:



			.......

C, I have not noted any change in my dogs ability to turn or their speed in doing so once dew claws off (an observation) from me, .....

.....and another topic within this post, some mentioning the use of dew claws in turning, which of course it will indeed, ......

.......so I mention (no negative) effects from mine being removed.

No deviation you see 

.......
		
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Further apparent contradictions.  I'm doing my best to understand,  assimilate and take in your points,  but I'm struggling.  I'm not taking the pee,  I simply don't understand.  It seems that you haven't noticed any changes in all your dogs which have had Dew Claws removed,  presumably as adult animals(?),  but it seems that in line 2 you accept that it will indeed (make a difference?), and then in line 3,  there are no negative effects from having Dew Claws removed,  again and presumably,  from adult dogs.  In 60 years (and no intentions at an age deference here~!)  I've never had Dew Claws removed from an adult dog.

Alec.
		
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## CAYLA (7 May 2014)

Alec Swan said:





CAYLA said:



			Further apparent contradictions.  I'm doing my best to understand,  assimilate and take in your points,  but I'm struggling.  I'm not taking the pee,  I simply don't understand.  It seems that you haven't noticed any changes in all your dogs which have had Dew Claws removed,  presumably as adult animals(?),  but it seems that in line 2 you accept that it will indeed (make a difference?), and then in line 3,  there are no negative effects from having Dew Claws removed,  again and presumably,  from adult dogs.  In 60 years (and no intentions at an age deference here~!)  I've never had Dew Claws removed from an adult dog.

Alec.
		
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I shall go again...Indeed dew claws must play a part in turning, otherwise mud and grass would not get stuck in them, unless its from skidding to a stop (which is possible and most likely how it happens) but even IF/WHEN used when turning, it has had no NEGATIVE effects on my dogs ability to turn or stop, they still turn just as affectively at immense speed, they still caught rabbits as they had before and they still kept up or out run the other lurchers in play as they always did. I am not arguing that dogs DON'T need dew claws but they can hinder a dog when they cause ongoing issues as people have mentioned in this post inc me, having injured them and not being able to run at all without moaping about and limping along and being obs to sore to run then obs having them removed in these instances can see activity restored to usual.

Edited to add, I would not remove front dew claws as per routine, I would remove and have for repetative injury.

No condradictions either, they will indeed use the dew claws when turning I aint denying that, but Im stating removing them makes no difference that I have noted to their ability to still turn on a six pence as they once did with them, they did not suddenly become incapable or look to loose speed or struggle post removal.
		
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## Alec Swan (7 May 2014)

CAYLA said:





Alec Swan said:



			...Indeed dew claws must play a part in turning, otherwise mud and grass would not get stuck in them, .......
		
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And THAT POINT,  throughout this tortuous thread,  has been the nub of the argument;  DOGS,  SPECIFICALLY COURSING DOGS,  DO ACTUALLY NEED THEIR DEW CLAWS!

Bingo,  progress!!

Alec.
		
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## Fides (7 May 2014)

Alec - You're shouting


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## CAYLA (7 May 2014)

Alec Swan said:





CAYLA said:



			Further apparent contradictions.  I'm doing my best to understand,  assimilate and take in your points,  but I'm struggling.  I'm not taking the pee,  I simply don't understand.  It seems that you haven't noticed any changes in all your dogs which have had Dew Claws removed,  presumably as adult animals(?),  but it seems that in line 2 you accept that it will indeed (make a difference?), and then in line 3,  there are no negative effects from having Dew Claws removed,  again and presumably,  from adult dogs.  In 60 years (and no intentions at an age deference here~!)  I've never had Dew Claws removed from an adult dog.

Alec.
		
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I think I see where you are misreading or I have used "it" instead of "they"! Im saying dew claws will "indeed" be used when turning for some dogs at least, but I did not say they make a "difference" in the dogs ability to turn, they can still turn! they don't become impaired and unable when they are removed. I used the word "it" instead of "they" see below as Im not to good at quoting.
Im saying "of course they will indeed be used" but im not saying they make a "difference" to the dogs ability, and not of what I have noticed in my own. 

.....and another topic within this post, some mentioning the use of dew claws in turning, which of course it will indeed, ......
		
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## CAYLA (7 May 2014)

Fides said:



			Alec - You're shouting 

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## CAYLA (7 May 2014)

Alec Swan said:





CAYLA said:



			And THAT POINT,  throughout this tortuous thread,  has been the nub of the argument;  DOGS,  SPECIFICALLY COURSING DOGS,  DO ACTUALLY NEED THEIR DEW CLAWS!

Bingo,  progress!!

Alec.
		
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Nope...only progress in your mind!, they may indeed use them!!, but they don't need them!!, as otherwise dogs that have had them removed would become incapable of coursing, to which mine never....that's what Im telling you, they may use them, but they don't become incapable of turning if they don't have them ta dar!! 

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## Fides (7 May 2014)

CAYLA said:





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Don't laugh - so were you  I should bang your heads together


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## CAYLA (7 May 2014)

Fides said:



			Don't laugh - so were you  I should bang your heads together 

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I am dealing with an ancient though, you have to speak up, as either they are deaf or simply WON'T hear you.  I am also contending with the possibility of poor eye sight too...all factors I must account for


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## {97702} (7 May 2014)

CAYLA said:





Alec Swan said:



			Nope...only progress in your mind!, they may indeed use them!!, but they don't need them!!, as otherwise dogs that have had them removed would become incapable of coursing, to which mine never....that's what Im telling you, they may use them, but they don't become incapable of turning if they don't have them ta dar!! 

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Ah someone who knows what they are talking about   we miss you on here Cayla 

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## Alec Swan (7 May 2014)

Fides said:



			Alec - You're shouting 

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CAYLA said:





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Fides said:



			Don't laugh - so were you  I should bang your heads together 

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Finally,  Cayla and I are in agreement!!

You're right,  Fides,  and I apologise.  It was a simple case of frustration!

Alec.


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## {97702} (7 May 2014)

CAYLA said:



			I will give a stab at answering OP and say maybe greyhound men would not like the expense of removal/or be bothered to do it themselves, we all know racers get a pretty crappy innings! and running on sand probably equals no injury so I guess they see it as no big deal and I doubt they give a toss about when they go to pet homes and most will deem them dead dogs once their racing days are gone at the grand old age of 2 or 3.
		
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I think you are absolutely right here


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## {97702} (7 May 2014)

CAYLA said:



			I am dealing with an ancient though, you have to speak up, as either they are deaf or simply WON'T hear you.  I am also contending with the possibility of poor eye sight too...all factors I must account for 

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Won't rather than can't I feel....


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## Alec Swan (7 May 2014)

CAYLA said:





Alec Swan said:



			....... Im saying dew claws will "indeed" be used when turning for some dogs at least, but I did not say they make a "difference" in the dogs ability to turn, they can still turn! they don't become impaired and unable when they are removed. ......., ......
		
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Of course a dog with its dew claws removed can still turn,  has anyone said that they can't?  Just as a sight hound generally has a longer than average tail,  so it uses it as a rudder and as a balancing aid.  Dock the tail,  and all that it does is it makes the dog just a little less efficient,  just as it may be when its dew claws are removed,  though it would be a moot point,  unless one conducted tests on an adult dog,  whilst it still had dew claws,  and then repeated those tests once the claws were removed,  there would be little way of knowing whether an individual animal,  was any more,  or less efficient with,  or without its dew claws.

The main and the original point of the discussion is that the reason,  RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY (whispered!),  why many professional greyhound breeders leave dew claws in place,  is because many feel that they aid the dog,  in turning.  As you seem to agree that 'some'(?) dogs do indeed use them,  so we can only conclude that it's possible that the dog has dew claws,  because perhaps they actually need them.  They manage without them,  just as they do without tails,  it's all a matter of efficiency,  perhaps.

It would also be true that any sight-hound,  whilst putting in tight turns,  would only use one dew claw on each turn,  that being the one on the outside leg.

It may be Cayla,  that you will be better informed than those who are professional breeders and trainers of greyhounds,  and perhaps their held beliefs,  are in fact old wives tales.  You could of course,  very well be right in everything that you say.

Alec.
		
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## lexiedhb (7 May 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			But you see this is where I'm confused; you said you'd never seen a dog using it's front dew claws; that I find a very odd comment to make because I've never seen a dog not use it's front dew claws.  My dogs use theirs for holding things, climbing, scratching, motability etc.
		
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This- dex uses his all the time!


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## CAYLA (7 May 2014)

Alec Swan said:





CAYLA said:



			So then you understand? Im simply saying they/some may use to as extent but dont need them to the point it renders incapable and can still do the intended job. Neither of us have carried out tests so im going from what i have (noted) in my own dogs having been the one between the 2 of us who has has dogs with and without dew claws. 
Better informed than professionals or trainers? .......well i can only simply guess as to why they leave them in situ. I certainly dont believe im better informed.
		
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## Katikins (7 May 2014)

Surely it is just a case of some people feel the risk of damage/injury to the dew claws outweighs the fact that they 'may' use them in coursing.  Freya's sire (whippet) was Dutch lure coursing champion 3 years on the trot with no dew claws and surely if having them gave a significant advantage then competition breeders would never remove them.

Plus the fact that some dogs are now born without them (I didn't realise this) means that perhaps evolution is moving in the direction of getting rid of them.

Freya had hers removed as a puppy and doesn't seem to miss them for grooming, climbing or turning.  I'm just happy its one less thing she can have a drama queen fit over ;P


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## Fides (7 May 2014)

Katikins - is that Freya in your av? She's gorgeous!


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## Katikins (7 May 2014)

Fides said:



			Katikins - is that Freya in your av? She's gorgeous!
		
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Yep that's my little monster and pride and joy   My first whippet and I can't see me having another breed now, they are just so fantastic.  And another couple of gratuitous pictures


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## {97702} (7 May 2014)

Oh Katikins she is absolutely gorgeous     Please stop tempting me with whippets, I cannot have one just yet....   

I think your first sentence summarises the position very well.  I guess it is all down to the experiences that an owner has had - personally I have too many problems with dew claws to make me think that they are useful, clearly others have not had those bad experiences so feel differently


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## horseperson (7 May 2014)

6yrs ago I adopted a Saluki cross Greyhound every time she ran on the forest she was dripping in blood from her front dew claws.  They stuck out at odd angles so my vet suggested to remove them, so we did.  

My Greyhound who's nearly 9 has hers still with no problems but hers are quite small and lay flat to her leg. When she did flyball she had leg wraps just incase, or I wrapped her leg in vet wrap.


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## CAYLA (7 May 2014)

Thankyou for that Katikins, very interesting and as I thought it has never altered the efficiency of these little speed demons even at the top of their game it seems. Your girl is adorable, she is perfect.


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## connieconvert (9 May 2014)

Does any one know why they are called dew claws ?

Genuine question, not a trick.


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## Slightlyconfused (9 May 2014)

We have always left the dew claws on our dogs bar one.

my big collie had his fronts taken off last year. Everytime he ran chasing his ball he would rip them back when going flat out and on tight.turns. After the third infection we decided along with my vet to take them off at age 7. We had put it off that long as we really wanted to leave alone. 

i will leave them on any future dogs i get unless its like the big collie and just rips them back everytime they run. 

the op hasn't changed how he runs, took him a few weeks to get the idea they aren't there but now he is fine.


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## FinnishLapphund (9 May 2014)

connieconvert said:



			Does any one know why they are called dew claws ?

Genuine question, not a trick.
		
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I've read two explanations for why dewclaws are called dewclaws.

I've read that when "dew" is used relating to body parts, it probably comes from a Scandinavian word that has been altered. Danish 
doglæb, Norwegian doglæp and Swedish dröglapp refers to the hanging flap of skin that hangs beneath the lower jaw/neck of e.g. 
some types of cows and dogs. That is the likely origin of the English word dewlap (according to what I've read). Since the word dewlap 
refers to a piece of hanging skin, and some people thinks dewclaws looks like just a piece of hanging skin + a claw, I've read that some 
people believes that the origin of the word dewclaw is dewlap, which comes from doglæb/doglæp/dröglapp.   

There is also those that believes that the word dewclaw refers to that from its higher position, it only brushes the dew off the grass. 


Personally, even though I feel that the second explanation sounds more poetic, I think the first explanation makes more sense.


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## vieshot (6 June 2014)

vieshot said:



			I have a whippet and a Lurcher. Both have their dew claws. Never had a problem.
		
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Take it back. Now have a Lurcher with one less dew claw :/


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## FinnishLapphund (6 June 2014)

vieshot said:



			I have a whippet and a Lurcher. Both have their dew claws. Never had a problem.
		
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vieshot said:



			Take it back. Now have a Lurcher with one less dew claw :/
		
Click to expand...

What happened, I hope the lurcher is okay now?

Almost always when I say or write something like "My dogs have never...", I usually get the thought in my head that it will probably soon happen. 
So usually I add things like "It hasn't happened this far", and similar.


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