# Tell we what you see , besides a lame pony



## Horsekaren (12 July 2019)

We long lined yesterday for 30 mins, all seemed ok apart from this moment. 
This is what he has done under saddle a couple of times which has triggered all of the investigates. He doesnâ€™t do this on the lunge itâ€™s only when you take up some sort of contact and ask for the hind to come under. In the clip I ask him to slow as I try and menouver him around the bush. I did put a bit of pressure down the lines to bring him back and this is the result. 

I will show this to my chiro vet tomorrow but has anyone seen this before, where do you see the issue to be? Clearly behind but what. 

History- 
Locking neck on left rein
Short behind
The above video
Bucking in canter

Hocks injected with steroids last Friday. In hand walking this week. Not been ridden for 6 weeks.

Spine xrayed and is clear
Fetlocks xrayed and clear
Hocks xrayed mild arthritis found in both hocks, worse in left but also present in right.

If he were yours what would your next step be? I need to crack this. Vet who did the injections suggested nerve blocking si and doing a ridden lameness exam. Would you do this or ask for him to be reffered. 


Please be nice, Iâ€™m trying everything I to help him. You can see how upsetting it is to see by my face  I just donâ€™t want to be given the run around with vets


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## LaurenBobby (12 July 2019)

If it was me I would want a full lameness work up from a trusted vet, were his hocks nerve blocked or just xrayed? I would probably go for the nerve blocks first. Good luck x


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## quizzie (12 July 2019)

I would be very suspicious of neck involvement...a change in head/neck position caused a significant gait change in that video.

Was the neck X-rayed, and if so was it a specialist equine practice ....as neck x-rays can be difficult to interpret, and positioning is critical.


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## Shay (12 July 2019)

Can I throw a curve ball.... have his eyes been checked?  I have an oldie going blind who will react like this when something presents in his visual field in a way he wasn't expecting.  Yes clearly lame and in pain - it was just something in that head movement - as if that bush (or possibly a turn as this isn't an aerial view) wasn't where he thought it was and he needed to raise his head an hold a second to check. My oldie - who is not lame or in pain - will sometimes do this long lining if he needs to double check what he can actually see.  He is totally blind one side and has very limited probably peripheral vision in the other.


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## Micky (12 July 2019)

Not that Iâ€™m an expert in any shape or form but Iâ€™d say look at his feet..


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## scats (12 July 2019)

Scan his suspensories.


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## Littlebear (12 July 2019)

There are so many possibilities looking at the video, I agree with the other poster that I would take it for full assessment with nerve blocks to isolate where the issue is coming from x


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## ycbm (12 July 2019)

I see a typical reaction to sore hocks when stopping the front end puts more weight into the back end. 

Unless you are insured, I don't see anything that would make me want to spend a lot of money on more investigations. 

But I would probably want a scan for PSD,  because spavin with PSD combined is so much more difficult to manage.

.


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## Melody Grey (12 July 2019)

quizzie said:



			I would be very suspicious of neck involvement...a change in head/neck position caused a significant gait change in that video.

Was the neck X-rayed, and if so was it a specialist equine practice ....as neck x-rays can be difficult to interpret, and positioning is critical.
		
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Sorry to agree, this looks neurological to me. Has wobblers been ruled out?


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## ycbm (12 July 2019)

HK you can do the basic tests for a neurological issue yourself.  If you don't already know them:

Turn him very tight in a circle to each side. His inside hind leg should cross in front of the outside one and he shouldn't kick himself.

Back him up. He should back up in equal diagonal pairs in a straight line without difficulty.

If he seems to be having an issue with either of those then you definitely need to explore a neurological possibility. 

.


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## Horsekaren (12 July 2019)

Neck possibly has a bit part to play or it is secondary to something behind.

eyes- i like the curve ball idea but its not his eyes, he often sets towards objects on purpose, if there is a cone or a barrel in an area he often makes a b line for them just to kick them over. He knew the bush was there.

Feet, possibly, vet said he was slightly foot sore on one of his fronts on hard ground but wasnt concerned.

Scats- When you say suspensory is this below his hock? would you think the issue is above or below the hock?

YCBM - its got something to do with putting the weight back i am sure of it. He is insured. The Arthritis is by no means severe, its very early stages which makes me wonder if this is secondary. regardless i doubt the injections have helped if he has done this within a week.

I will research wobblers but i think i have looked at this before and it doesnt seem right, its a response to pain. if you add the below video to the equation, this is him sleeping, he does this a fare bit. he doesnt lay down but will roll a lot. Its like he cant lock something he should be able to. Or its sleep deprivation which is what vet suggested before but could it all be linked?  The clip was after he was let out of box rest so the poor thing was exhausted, i would say he probably does this 1 - 3 times a day. Vet not concerned 






To add he is asleep in this clip, starting to go into REM, he isnt just stretching, he falls and it wakes him up slowely. i'm sure that clear but ive been told a few times he is stretching *roles eyes*


He is insured and i really want answers.


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## TPO (12 July 2019)

Ask 5 horse people for an opinion and you'll get 11 different answers...

Is he insured? If he is and you have Â£Â£Â£ left on your claim then I'd throw everything at it. Get every inch blocked, scanned, x-rayed and MRI'd etc at a vet hospital. Don't suppose Sue Dyson is anywhere near you? Also see if insurance covers going to a rehab yard.

If he's not insured and I'm guessing you're not a millionaire then you need to have a very frank discussion with your vet. Get the cost of everything in black and white before proceeding with anything and really drill down into what will make the difference. EG if the treatment is the same is there a point to doing as much to get a diagnosis.

How long has your current vet and vet chiro/physio been involved with this process? Randomly I was discussing these men last night (with someone who's used them both so can advise further) but it might be worth looking into getting someone like Rob Jackson or Tom Beech out. There is also a female vet who takes a holistic approach and seems to have x-ray vision who's been mentioned on here before but I can't recall her name.


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## sherry90 (12 July 2019)

Iâ€™d get him referred for a full work up at one of the big practices. Not sure where you are OP but e.g. Newmarket/Leahurst etc.


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## only_me (12 July 2019)

That second video is quite concerning imo, what if he did that under saddle?

It looks as though his muscle spasmed and led to him wanting to stretch out - I think he needs a Physio (and not a chiro) as he may have damaged his deep digital flexor tendons around the hock, so if he moves it could cause pain and cause the spasm in hind.

I think itâ€™s very important that you get the hocks scanned as well - I donâ€™t think xrays are enough. You need to see the soft tissue, mild arthritis in hocks doesnâ€™t cause that movement.


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## Leo Walker (12 July 2019)

TPO said:



			Ask 5 horse people for an opinion and you'll get 11 different answers...

Is he insured? If he is and you have Â£Â£Â£ left on your claim then I'd throw everything at it. Get every inch blocked, scanned, x-rayed and MRI'd etc at a vet hospital. Don't suppose Sue Dyson is anywhere near you? Also see if insurance covers going to a rehab yard.

If he's not insured and I'm guessing you're not a millionaire then you need to have a very frank discussion with your vet. Get the cost of everything in black and white before proceeding with anything and really drill down into what will make the difference. EG if the treatment is the same is there a point to doing as much to get a diagnosis.

How long has your current vet and vet chiro/physio been involved with this process? Randomly I was discussing these men last night (with someone who's used them both so can advise further) but it might be worth looking into getting someone like Rob Jackson or Tom Beech out. There is also a female vet who takes a holistic approach and seems to have x-ray vision who's been mentioned on here before but I can't recall her name.
		
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I'd have Tom Beech out, just because hes very, very good at these slightly odd cases. But only once and if he didnt make a significant improvement in that visit then I'd have him off to vet hospital, with the videos and I'd want a full work up. I'd make sure they knew the amount left on the insurance and that thats the limit without prior discussion with you. Then I'd cross my fingers and pray for something easily fixed.


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## Horsekaren (12 July 2019)

There is just so much going on i dont know where to start, i'll take him to hospital and basically have verbal direah, basically say every part of him is broken. 
Si 
hind legs
front foot sore
short behind
Can hop on the front
jogs behind
Stiff neck
head shakes - allergies

Can i literally just hand him over and say he isnt right, figure it out. 
Now he has had his hocks injected if it is a Si or suspensory issue would these be two different insurance claims. 

If it is somthing that needs a lot of rest in a box, i would look at rehab yards as i dont know if i could manage in my current set up, any idea how much this would be a month? 

.


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## Leo Walker (12 July 2019)

yes, you send him with the videos and say he is broken, please find out why.

Stop getting ahead of yourself with referral livery! I sent mine to one and it was very cheap, the cost of full livery in my area. It depends what sort of rehab is needed. It would have gone up slightly had he needed ridden exercise, but he didnt get to that point.


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## milliepops (12 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			Can i literally just hand him over and say he isnt right, figure it out.


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that's pretty much the purpose of a full work up at a hospital.

I really feel for you, this must all feel very difficult.


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## ycbm (12 July 2019)

HK please check with your insurer before you commit to a lot of money on a non specific issue. It has been known for insurers to refuse to pay out if nothing is found, especially if the symptoms already fit something which has been identified and is only part way through treatment. 

I wouldn't want you to unexpectedly end up with a huge bill.


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## SEL (12 July 2019)

HK as the owner of a broken one who would do things differently in hindsight now is the time to hand him over to the vets, tell them how much you've got on the insurance and say you want answers. Show them these videos.

We have a 30 year old mare on the yard who does the same sleeping behaviour. She has arthritis but also a severe heart murmur - the vet reckons it's the latter that causes this. They will have listened to your boys heart at some point in the process so I wonder if there's something arthritic stopping him lying down to sleep.

Which vet hospitals are near you?


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## TPO (12 July 2019)

I think going to a well respected vet hospital (possibly via Tom Beech) is a good plan.

I've been in a similar position to you but because I'd been messed around by previous practices doing their "best guess" approach and screwing up procedures I was all out of insurance by the time I found my new/current practice. I wasn't long in burning through the 5k vet fees while they ummed and ahhed at things and was the best part of that again out of my own pocket. So learn from my mistakes and if you have the money available get what needs done to give a firm diagnosis while leaving enough for the treatment at the other side of that.

It could still be something relatively simple and all related ie his hocks might have been bothering him so he compensated by loading his front end. This could cause his shoulders to brace and neck to become stiff; just think how you how yourself when you're sore. You are stiff and tight. If he's a bit footsore (is he shod or BF, when was he last seen to?) in front when he's already compensating that could intensify the issues with shoulders and neck as he braces against that and shortens his stride. Add into that the rehab work that he's been doing to use himself properly is possibly the equivalent to us squatting with weights and holding that position then a brutal pilates session. The rehab work has been working and is for his benefit but he will feel the change and struggle as new/unused muscles are activated etc.

It's brilliant that you have these videos. I think you should also write out everything (use your old posts on here for dates) as it's so easy to miss parts when retelling the story to new vets. Tell them your goal ie to have him back sound and in ridden work, ask the what they propose to do to diagnose and how they propose to go about treatment and the cost of it all. If the cost is too high then you have to work with them to narrow down what is necessary and what is a duplication. 

When did your claim start, how long do you have left on your insurance?


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## Meowy Catkin (12 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:








To add he is asleep in this clip, starting to go into REM, he isnt just stretching, he falls and it wakes him up slowely. i'm sure that clear but ive been told a few times he is stretching *roles eyes*


He is insured and i really want answers.
		
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I have seen a horse stretch like this with the forelimbs out stretched and the chest practically on the ground while awake (so this probably isn't the case for your horse, but I feel that I should mention it just incase) and it was due to pain from encysted redworms.


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## Trouper (12 July 2019)

Another one for a call to Tom Beech here.  He will assess the whole horse for you and point you in the right direction.  Good luck.


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## ester (12 July 2019)

I thought the chiro vet that HK has had out and is coming again was also recommended?


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## ozpoz (12 July 2019)

I am concerned that your vet is "not concerned" and has been not concerned since you began posting months ago. Whatever you decide to do, you need a specialist hospital practice to investigate.


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## ester (12 July 2019)

I also thought the hock injections were done as a result of a hospital referral for work up?


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## JFTDWS (12 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			eyes- i like the curve ball idea but its not his eyes, he often sets towards objects on purpose, if there is a cone or a barrel in an area he often makes a b line for them just to kick them over. He knew the bush was there.
		
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Have you actually had his eyes checked?  I think it's odd the way he has clearly clocked the bush, but lurches slightly towards it and puts his nose in it.  Sometimes making a bee-line for an object is an indicator that they need to investigate it further, rather than that they've seen it and processed it as fine...

That said, I suspect he has deeper and more complex issues given the other video and his movement.


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## Horsekaren (12 July 2019)

No, my chiro vet spoke to my local practice who wanted him in to xrays and to do an initial work up, they then found the hock arthritis. He hasnt yet been refereed as we found the arthritis which was injected but either hasnt worked or is not the primary issue.


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## ester (12 July 2019)

gah, that's annoying as they have essentially spent money out of your insurance budget. His issues have never looked simple hence why people here have been so pro-referral.


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## LaurenBay (12 July 2019)

You aren't too far from Newmarket. I would highly recommend Rossdales at Newmarket. My mare went there and had the best care. I would take him there, write all symptoms and show them the vids and say you want a full lameness work up carried out. 

Wouldn't it just be easier if Horses could speak to us!


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## TotalMadgeness (12 July 2019)

My next step would be a full body bone scan. If insured for it!


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## holeymoley (12 July 2019)

Not read any other replies but looks like pelvis/hocks to me.

Eta -neurological crossed my mind then decided against it.


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## holeymoley (12 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			Neck possibly has a bit part to play or it is secondary to something behind.

eyes- i like the curve ball idea but its not his eyes, he often sets towards objects on purpose, if there is a cone or a barrel in an area he often makes a b line for them just to kick them over. He knew the bush was there.

Feet, possibly, vet said he was slightly foot sore on one of his fronts on hard ground but wasnt concerned.

Scats- When you say suspensory is this below his hock? would you think the issue is above or below the hock?

YCBM - its got something to do with putting the weight back i am sure of it. He is insured. The Arthritis is by no means severe, its very early stages which makes me wonder if this is secondary. regardless i doubt the injections have helped if he has done this within a week.

I will research wobblers but i think i have looked at this before and it doesnt seem right, its a response to pain. if you add the below video to the equation, this is him sleeping, he does this a fare bit. he doesnt lay down but will roll a lot. Its like he cant lock something he should be able to. Or its sleep deprivation which is what vet suggested before but could it all be linked?  The clip was after he was let out of box rest so the poor thing was exhausted, i would say he probably does this 1 - 3 times a day. Vet not concerned 






To add he is asleep in this clip, starting to go into REM, he isnt just stretching, he falls and it wakes him up slowely. i'm sure that clear but ive been told a few times he is stretching *roles eyes*


He is insured and i really want answers.
		
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This video looks like sleep deprivation


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## LegOn (12 July 2019)

Really hope you find some answers - what a lucky horse to have you as their human, try not to be too hard on yourself - you are doing everything you can.  I really hope you find some answers for your lovely boy. Look after yourself aswell xx


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## Annagain (12 July 2019)

I'd be pretty sure that the second video is sleep deprivation. Does he lie down to sleep? My money would be on him not lying down to sleep due to pain while going down or getting back up and that's what causing that reaction. A friend's horse had something similar, although he'd keel over and then struggle to get back up so was PTS. They didn't investigate as he was old and retired due to arthritis so assumed it was that progressing. 

I hope you get some answers soon. We had a year of not being able to work out my share horse's issue and it was horrible. My OH is in the police and has ended up in hospital more times that I can remember due to injuries on duty. I just roll my eyes at him. The horses not being right will have me in floods of tears though.


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## eggs (12 July 2019)

My old mare used to do something similar to your second video and we put it down to narcolepsy.  It only every happened when she was standing still.

If your horse isn't lying down then that to me is a strong indicator of pain somewhere.  I would get a referral to an equine centre - I have used Newmarket Equine Hospital a few times and they have been great.  Do not spend any more money with your current vets as it is highly likely that any referral centre will just repeat any scans/ x-rays, etc that your vets have already done and that will just eat into your insurance.

Ask your horse to walk backwards over a pole on the ground.  If he has difficulty with that I would tend to think there is a neurological issue


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## Pinkvboots (12 July 2019)

I would go to Newmarket and have a full work up and assessment done if your insurance will allow, when I took mine for lameness issues I dealt with Andy who's surname escapes me but his there lameness man, and I recommend Tim Barrett who works alongside him, they got to the bottom of both of my horses issues, my friend took her horse there he was basically stopping in canter and nose flipping so not lameness as such more of a lack if performance work up, they found diastamas in his mouth and he was very sore through his poll.

Newmarket are very good you can tell them how much insurance you have left and they will let you know of costs, they also do payment plans if not insured or if it's more, the only thing some insurance won't pay is livery one of mine was there a week and it's not that extortionate considering the care they have.


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## McFluff (12 July 2019)

I didn't want to read and run - really feel for you as this is clearly a difficult one.  Can't add to the good advice on here already, just wanted to send HHO healing vibes...


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## scats (12 July 2019)

OP- sorry, I canâ€™t quote your post where you ask me about suspensories (my iPad is a pain to do quotes) but yes, itâ€™s beneath the hock.
Suspensories problems often come hand in hand with SI and back problems and also spavin (effectively hock arthritis)
You may find you are dealing with a few things that are probably connected.
I speak from experience as last year I sent a challenging case into the hospital.  Initially diagnosed with mild hock arthritis and injected with steroids.  It made no difference.  Sent her back.  She had back and SI issues too but nothing that anyone could give me a definite diagnosis of, just that she was â€˜soreâ€™.  I had an inkling and pushed for a suspensory scan and bingo.

If I were you, I would send in for a full lameness investigation and ask for no stone unturned.  I would ask for a suspensory scan though, my well known vet hospital didnâ€™t include that in their investigation until I asked.  They got hung up on the hocks when in reality, I donâ€™t think the hock issue has ever been the cause of Pollyâ€™s problems.


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## Tarragon (12 July 2019)

I just wanted to say that I really feel for you as whatever action you take is going to be a hard one. 
Personally I would do some serious soul searching, with you heart and then again with your head, on your own and with a trusted and sensible friend, and write it all down in pros and cons format just to try and rationalise your real feelings on everything. Some of these options being suggested are lengthy and potentially expensive, and your lovely horse will be in the middle of it all. How will he react to it all? What is his mindset? what outcomes could there be and how would you be able to cope with each of them?
Thinking of you. You are being a lovely and caring owner to this horse.


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## splashgirl45 (12 July 2019)

cant add anything to what has already been said but want to say what a good owner you are and really hope you get some answers for your horse that gives him a good quality of life.....fingers crossed that something  is found that can be treated and you have him for many years...such a shame for both him and you


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## Horsekaren (12 July 2019)

He owes me nothing , I owe him so much, hopefully he can get back to some sort of work but if he is retired he will live out his days with me comfortably. Buts letâ€™s not get to ahead of ourselves, I know he is happy just being a horse. When he is unhappy his behaviour soon changes, he hasnâ€™t shown any signs of this. You wouldnâ€™t know anything was wrong watching him in the field. Hopefully we can figure it all out but my love for this horse is enormous, as long as he is comfortable then thatâ€™s all I ask, my goals can be forgotten as long as he is happy. 

Hopefully my chiro vet will guid us well tomorrow.

Thanks for the advice and comments, we will get there ... where ever there is x


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## Pearlsasinger (12 July 2019)

I would be suspicious of the neck in the 1st photo and agree that the 2nd pic probably shows that there is pain somewhere which means that he doesn't lie down to sleep.  I wouldn't be surprised if his neck was painful, he seems to move it awkwardly in the 'stretching' pic. 

I would want my vet to be concerned, so in your position, I would ask for a referral to a specialist vet.  I have no experience of Tom Beech et al but I do use a local specialist chiro/vet and if my horse were showing similar symptoms, I would want him to look at it.

I do hope that you get to the bottom of this, without too much work having to be done but would also caution speaking to your insurance company, they are generally shocking for trying to wriggle out of paying


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## gunnergundog (13 July 2019)

Pinkvboots said:



			I would go to Newmarket and have a full work up and assessment done if your insurance will allow, when I took mine for lameness issues I dealt with Andy who's surname escapes me but his there lameness man, and I recommend Tim Barrett who works alongside him, .
		
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Andy Bathe?


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## Theocat (13 July 2019)

Late to this, and nothing to add to getting a proper workout, but one observation on the bush - it almost looks as though he's using it as a "handrail", and making contact with him to help himself navigate it while he's feeling wobbly. It doesn't look like just interest to me. I think that comes down to eyes, or something around spatial awareness/processing. 

I am so sorry you're going through this.  Do bear in mind that if you throw everything at diagnostics you'll have nothing left for treatment, so have an honest conversation with your vet.

I don't personally think it is likely that box rest would be a good option for this horse or for a lot of what's been mentioned as a possible cause. Box rest is sometimes used because it is a faster (not necessarily better) route than turning away for a longer period, so depending on what investigations find, have a good discussion about a period of field rest - even if it takes longer - rather than just going along with box rest automatically.


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## scats (13 July 2019)

Sorry OP, I missed the second video completely somehow.

Could he have narcolepsy?


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## PapaverFollis (13 July 2019)

I think a full work up is in order. But keep a consideration as to what diagnostics actually affect treatment as someone said.  No point testing whether it's problem X or problem Y when treatment for both is field rest until better for example! 

I don't really have any helpful input but I just want to say that the second video does NOT look like sleep deprivation to me.  It's similar yes but to me it's a significantly different motion pattern.  Sleep deprivation that I've seen involved head nodding and the front end slowly sinking with some knee buckle, before a jerk awake.  Your boy does a hind leg and pelvis twitch before going doing onto a stretch. His movement is quite jerky throughout.

I hope you get some answers soon.


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## Sussexbythesea (13 July 2019)

Sorry you seem to have one thing after another with your lad. 

Re the falling down. Is your horse out with others or on his own in a paddock? My old boy did this last year I was on the yard talking to the saddler about my new horse and he was dozing over the stable door when suddenly went down like a tonne of bricks. Luckily he was ok. This was the first year heâ€™d been turned out 24hrs and they were then in separate although adjacent paddocks. I truly believe in his case it was sleep deprivation as he didnâ€™t feel safe lying down outside without a buddy to stand over him. Theyâ€™ve been in the same paddock together ever since and itâ€™s not reoccurred. 

As an aside I never see him lie down (once in 14yrs)  just evidence that he does whilst my new horse is often lying down at various times of day especially in the morning. 

Re you first video it was quite short and part of it I thought he backed off because it looks like you were directing him into the bush. I had a suspected wobbler and I got him referred to the AHT at Newmarket and saw Sue Dyson for a definitive opinion. It was not cheap and there were no successful treatments although I did try with steroid injections and physio.


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## ester (13 July 2019)

I am confused by the sleeping one I thought he had stopped doing that after the sleep deprivation diagnosis associated with his breathing. 

I know the horse vet corner group got brought up earlier but you will see a lot of similar videos on there and they pretty much always say sleep deprivation over narcolepsy which is much rarer. 

I think one of the issues of your vets potentially working him up piecemeal rather than referring is that if you don't find anything whether insurance will pay. If you work lots of things up at the same time and find like say the hocks to inject they can be more accepting. He's got a lot going on with the sleeping, breathing, his movement and previous demeanours and there may or may not be a diagnosable answer as he clearly isn't a textbook case.


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## charterline (13 July 2019)

You could be looking for a needle in a haystack, however gleaning from what people have suggested on here:

Worm for the encysted redworm, wont cost much and is easy to do. No doubt this wont be the cause of the problems, but you never know it may just be contributing towards them.

Get a vet out to have a look at his eyes. I'm sure a reasonably experienced vet should have some inkling if there is something wrong, even if they are not an expert.

See if you could get a prompt appointment with Tom Beech/Rob Jackson, or someone else similar. I'd probably guess not, but they may just well find something that a "normal" oesto/chiro doesn't. 

Go to a proper vet hospital for further tests/investigations. I cant really suggest what, however I'd have a good think about what you want, what you think is likely to be the problem, and how much you have to spend. Make sure the hospital knows exactly what procedures you want doing to start with (at least) and how much money you have to spend on diagnosis and treatment.  A lot of practise will quite happily run the horse through every machine going, leaving you with an enormous diagnostics bill with nothing left on the insurance for treatment.


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## Horse2018 (13 July 2019)

It looks like arthritis to me  it would also explain him not being able to lie down.  Horses donâ€™t need to be old to get arthritis or lamintis since he is heavy.


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## Horsekaren (13 July 2019)

Well, well , well! 
Chiro vet was actually super pleased with him! Actually she was sooo soooo sooooo pleased I didnâ€™t see that coming! No pain over his si what so ever, happy over his back, shoulders, a bit tense over pole but nothing ab normal. She said he was tracking up about a foot more than last time which is amazing. She said he has got issues with his hocks so he is never going to track up like a Thorobred, itâ€™s not in his build then add the hock situation so I need to accept he is always going to be a bit shorter behind than some horses. 

I showed her both videos, she is going to send to rossdales to see what they think, but thought neurological. she told me to get back on board, aim for four mins of walking with a contact, but take it easy, so tomorrow Iâ€™m going to hop on for 15 mins of walk on long rein ( straight line hack) 4 mins of a walk on contact and then a min or two of trot on a long rein. If the issues are still there then that will be clear. 
I literally cannot believe all the pain has gone over his back, she couldnâ€™t touch him without him moving away and flinching four weeks ago. 

very happy with the visit but confused, essentially I need to get back on to see what he does. 

Fingers and toes crossed!


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## charterline (13 July 2019)

if its likely to be neurological, is it safe to be riding?


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## MyBoyChe (13 July 2019)

I thought that too Charterline, surely if neurological it would mean an element of unpredictability?


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## Red-1 (13 July 2019)

No way would I ride this horse.

Although I don't doubt this horse has hock pain (visible in earlier ridden videos as well as before he encountered the bush area in video 1) I really don't think the hock pain is causing these more outlandish symptoms. 

In the first video the horse DOES take weight on the hocks, he steps right under. I am unsure as to weather he is camped under to avoid pain or because he has neuro disorientation. 

The second video, he is not stretching, he is standing nice and relaxed, the he has a jump which looks like a pain response (left hind?), followed by a learned response to stretch. 

I would not use a local vet for this, it would be a lameness specialist, with videos and expect a full spine X ray as a starter, and possible bone scan/mri. 

Would I do that if it were mine? Yes, possibly if it were insured. If not I would X ray only and expect it to not be good news. 

My heart horse Jay had a set of X rays when he became a wobbler. His spine was not that bad, but we tried a steroid course and strong pain killer/anti inflammatories orally (being as no spot was awful enough to inject). 

This did not work, and I could have scanned/ mri'ed (only used 2.2K of a 5 K vet insurance allowance) but I decided that actually nothing much could be done so I gave him retirement and when that became unfeasible due to worsening symptoms then I PTS.

Of course, with your horse, the lameness expert at one of the major equine hospitals may find something easily fixable. The horse may be a drama lama. But, if it were me I would go straight to the top experts and see what they say, and not ride in the mean time.


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## Leo Walker (13 July 2019)

I am genuinely shocked and horrified that your chiro vet can look at those videos, find no issues, suggest its neurological and say get back on board! The hocks may be better and thats great, but it looks like theres something else going on. I'd be sacking the chiro vet immediately. 

In your shoes I'd still be doing what I said earlier on, Tom Beech and then if he didnt find and at least start on fixing an issue on the first visit I'd be going straight to Newmarket or whatever vet school is closest. I'd tell them there was x amount left on the insurance and to work him up but to not spend more than y amount without my authorisation. 

What I wouldnt do is get back on board. I hoped as I know you did, that the hock injections would fix him, but clearly they havent, so you need to dig a little deeper.


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## Leo Walker (13 July 2019)

Red-1 said:



			and expect a full spine X ray as a starter, and possible bone scan/mri.
		
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Hes had his spine xrayed. I think thats what makes this so frustrating. The vets have seen him several times and have done a basic investigation, xrays of his spine and hocks and steroid injections etc. Hes clearly not right and we can all see it but its really hard for HK as from her point of view 2 vets have now said hes fine in the last couple of weeks.


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## Red-1 (13 July 2019)

Leo Walker said:



			Hes had his spine xrayed. I think thats what makes this so frustrating. The vets have seen him several times and have done a basic investigation, xrays of his spine and hocks and steroid injections etc. Hes clearly not right and we can all see it but its really hard for HK as from her point of view 2 vets have now said hes fine in the last couple of weeks.
		
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To me full spine would include neck (it did when I had myself MRI'ed - all the way from head to coccyx!) and if that were all clear I would stand by my original comment to have it referred to a specialist hospital for specialist lameness investigation rather than a local vet. If X rays were of high quality (which I guess would have needed a large hospital) then MRI/scan would be next, if that was the route I chose to go. 

I also stand by what I said that I would not ride this horse. Amazing to me that a professional would look at those videos and think that hopping on tomorrow is a good idea. 

I do think that sometimes a general antinflammatory and long term rest can help, sadly they did not help in my horse's case.


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## Sandstone1 (13 July 2019)

I think it would be dangerous to ride this horse.   Im Sorry for you as it seems you are trying your best to get to the bottom of whatever is wrong but looking at those videos especially the second one it would be really risky to ride him.
I do hope you find out whats wrong and its fixable but please do be careful around him.


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## Pearlsasinger (13 July 2019)

Why on earth would a vet suggest neurological problems and then advise the owner to ride the horse? 

Please don't ride until you have got to the bottom of this and ruled out neuro problems, for your safety and the horse's comfort.


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## ester (13 July 2019)

There's a plethora of very experienced referral vets not that far from HK.


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## gunnergundog (13 July 2019)

Spine may have x-rayed clear but has neck been checked?  Specifically, c6, c7.  Abnormalities there are notorious for throwing up hind neurological problems.

What neurological tests did your chiro vet carry out HK?

Regardless of answers to above I would NOT be riding this horse until I had the all clear from a referral hospital.  I have known of people who have been disabled (badly) due to a horse collapsing whilst ridden and them ending up underneath.


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## Melody Grey (13 July 2019)

Absolutely don't get back on until this has been investigated further (even then I'd take a lot of convincing). Sorry to say I think this is an accident waiting to happen.


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## HobleytheTB (13 July 2019)

Sorry, I have nothing useful to add other than to second those who suggested looking at the neck as a source of something neurological.

Well done for getting those moments on camera, hopefully if you can get him to the horsepital those will be helpful in figuring things out. I really hope you can get to the bottom of this, what a worry.


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## DabDab (13 July 2019)

Personally I wouldn't get on a horse displaying the behaviours shown in these videos.

I agree with others, you need to hand him over for a full work up, for your own sanity if nothing else.


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## ozpoz (14 July 2019)

I don't understand what "tracking up like a thoroughbred" means - a sound horse of any breeding will track up correctly, including cobs.  An unsound or compromised horse will not. It has nothing to do with breeding.


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## Turitea (14 July 2019)

My money is on a neurological disorder, may it be Wobbler syndrome or something else. Anyway, I hope you find the cause of all of this.


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## Lurfy (14 July 2019)

Until he is working comfortably on the long line I wouldn't be getting on his back. It just adds more burden on an already uncomfortable horse. It is also potentially dangerous. Personally I wouldn't be working him at all until you know what is going on. I wish you all the best with getting him the right professional help and hopefully he makes a full recovery.


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## ester (14 July 2019)

ozpoz said:



			I don't understand what "tracking up like a thoroughbred" means - a sound horse of any breeding will track up correctly, including cobs.  An unsound or compromised horse will not. It has nothing to do with breeding.
		
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I sort of do, on the basis that racers walking round the paddock do tend to look a bit odd to me!


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## Trouper (14 July 2019)

Sorry, but I think that is some very odd advice from your chiropractor and, like others have said, PLEASE do not get back on this horse yet.  We may all be wrong but it is not worth the risk that we are right and that there is something -not yet diagnosed - that will lead to unpredictable behaviour on his part which might endanger you.   You cannot help him if you are injured.  The half-way house before Newmarket is someone like Tom Beech who is an experienced equine vet but who looks at the horse holistically and can set you off on the right path.  Would be worth sending him the videos at least - one visit from Tom is worth endless chiro visits (including financially!).  I do hope you get some answers soon.


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## DD (14 July 2019)

Horse is showing symptoms of pain especially in nearside hind leg.  could be more than one joint affected anything from hip to fetlock.


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## Lois Lame (15 July 2019)

I'm going out on a limb here...

I've watched the first video several times over the last 2 or 3 days and really, I can't see any lameness.

I can see the way he is moving of course, but I'm putting that down to the long reining.

The shrub seems to be in a position where you must be going to pass in front of it and it surprised me that you passed behind it. (That's all beside the point I suppose.) The inside rein becomes a lot firmer and that's why he does all that maneuvering, imo.

The second video...

His stance is a little odd with those hind legs stretched out a bit, at the beginning.

If he was going to have a decent sleep, he would lay down. Someone asked if you've ever seen him laying down and I'm wondering the same thing. Check during the morning. Horses at grass love that time of day to have a proper, snoring, sleep.

Is he turned out alone? Does he have a companion to stand guard while he sleeps?

I don't know why he does what he does unless he is sleep deprived due to not wanting to lie down.


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## ester (15 July 2019)

He's been diagnosed as sleep deprived previously (considered a result of breathing issues), it seems pretty likely to me that he still is.


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## Horsekaren (15 July 2019)

This is going to be a long post, I feel like I may as well smash my head into a wall to make things clearer.



Firstly- the neurological issues were mentioned in terms of his sleeping habits, apparently this is a lot more common than you would expect and some horses literally just have a sleeping disorder. He has done this since Ive had him, he did it more at the last yard. I had a camera in his stable and he would lie down for about 3 -6 minutes a night, the rest of the time he would do what he does in the video. He just doesnâ€™t lay down, we know he has sore hocks so this could be why. Its not an issue with getting up and down as he rolls a lot. When he does this it isnâ€™t a random thing, it is when he stands and decided to go to sleep, he doesnâ€™t just drop down randomly. He lives in a herd of 3 boys, he is second in command, he has a gelding and a mare next door and a old 35 year old mare (I call her nana) in the other adjacent field. He is the watchman over them all, they all lay down apart from the old girl and he stands over them all.



A few of you mentioned wobblers, I'm not a vet but In my heart I really donâ€™t think this is the issue, he is coordinated, can turn tight circles, will react to a tail pull ect. Since I have owned him he has always tried to ram me into the fence, if there is a bush he will rub into it, cones, barrels ect he will pull me towards them just to kick them over, often to then have an itch. I could be wrong but ive always seen it as him being cheeky (for example he will do it to the mounting block, he will trample over it and knock it over, im sure he does it on purpose)



The first video is confused because of that damn bush, he didnâ€™t do this before or after it was just as I poorly tried to steer him around the bush, as someone has said above it looks as though we are going one way then I take him another, he has his moment and then had a good sniff of the bush most probably sussing out if its edible. I know it doesnâ€™t look right, I am not ignoring it, its very much at the forefront of my mind.



*So to revisit the facts*

-hocks injected 10 days ago

-4 weeks ago was in terrible pain over his back/ now the pain is nowhere to be seen (I think this has something partly to do with not being ridden)

-6 weeks off work

-He isnâ€™t in any clear pain when prodded, pulled, flexions test, no heat, no swelling

-new saddle 7 weeks ago

-head shakes this time of year





My chiro vet said injections tend to last between 6 - 12 weeks she said he isnâ€™t in pain and he trotted up really well. She did say that he anticipates pain, at first when she touched him his ears went back as if to expect it, he then realised its not there and she could bounce on his SI and back like it was a suspension with no reaction.  So could this be anticipation on the long lines.



I did get on board yesterday, I had to for my own sanity and im left more confused. Last time I rode him he threw me off, and the time before he did and big bronk that scared me (all be it at a loud bang but my confidence has been knocked) I felt sick before I got on and was pretty shakey on board. He walked fine for 10 mins, then he started to jog. I asked him to trot and he would speed off or pop up into canter (not  a muddled gate it was a big canter) He did this 3 times and I was too scared and confused so I got off. He didnâ€™t feel lame and he felt like he wanted to go go go. Possibly he is feeling good and fresh or he is running and warning me.



I hate to say it but I popped him on the lunge after, he pulled away and cantered around the school a few times. His canter looked good to be honest. He has always tried to pull off but as im not sure if he is sore I just drop the line rather than whip him round as I donâ€™t want to injure him. He did this when the vets lunged him so itâ€™s a habit I got out of him but he is learning again. He walked nicely on both reins, I then I asked for trot, he cantered a little bit and then settled into a nice big trot and he began to stretch. The vet had said before he was lacking power behind, everyone on here has said it, I can honestly say there was power, I felt like he was a bit out of control zooming around but as soon as I tapped him behind the power stayed and a stretch came. I didnâ€™t trot him for long but I had the same response on both reins. Non of this little choppy trot, it was big, he was forward and stretch with a tap behind a slight feel down the line (no gadgets)



If a lameness work up was done without any ridden I really donâ€™t think they would see anything to home in on. In terms of the ridden work up I donâ€™t know if he is still doing his movements as I haven't given him a chance to show me. I've got myself in such a state that I donâ€™t know how I am going to get back on and ride him.



I have given myself 2 options both include



*SADDLE FITTER*! 8 weeks ago he did the most amazing canter in his old 17 inch TG dressage cob saddle, a lot of you said it was the best you had seen him move and things looked like they were going well. 7 Weeks ago I changed to a 17.5 inch KM GP cob and it could be coincidence or not but it all fell apart, bucking became more frequent, the cloth slipped from under it, he got grumpy with his girth and then all the pain came. I tried to put his old one on him but it clearly doesnâ€™t fit so yesterday I tried with the new one but something is telling me its not right. I am going to get his old one refitted as soon as I can.



Secondly I need to bring him back into some sort of work, as I am not sure about the saddle I am going to do this from the ground, 3 times a week, long line,  lunge on a big big big circle not in the arena, in hand walk and maybe free school. If he shows me any more signs then this will stop.



*Options

Option 1*

Saddle fitter/ ground work and get Tom Beech or Rob Jackson out to see him, show the xrays and see what they think. If they thought there was something soft tissue related going on would they be able to suggest this or would they likely seem him, say he is unusual and leave me in the same situation. I know they donâ€™t have xray eyes but are the expects is this type of thing or more just back issues ect.



*Option 2*

Send him for a ridden lameness work up knowing that he has been treated for hocks and I haven't given him or myself any opportunity to see if this has helped as all I can see at the moment is a fresh horse that has had a moment on the long lines.  Does anyone know how much a ridden lameness work up costs roughly, and I presume they provide a good standard rider?




*Thoughts?*


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2019)

I have been following this thread and trying to sit on my hands but I have to add itâ€™s not ethical to ride this horse without some better answers about why heâ€™s in such pain .


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2019)

ester said:



			He's been diagnosed as sleep deprived previously (considered a result of breathing issues), it seems pretty likely to me that he still is.
		
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No doubt heâ€™s suffering from sleep deprivation itâ€™s probaly pain induced .


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## D66 (15 July 2019)

My horse did that stretching thing when she had ulcers. not done it since we got rid of them. Could possibly be another sort of pain in the chest/neck area.
The bush thing - to me it looked like the pony wasn't sure what you wanted, I wouldn't want a vet work up for that.


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## ihatework (15 July 2019)

Karen, genuine question with no hidden agenda. Have you considered how far you are wanting to dig with this horse in an effort to fix him? What sort of money you are wanting to spend?

There will be many of us on here that have had horses go wrong over the years - it is emotionally and financially draining. But sometimes as much as we want to do the right thing, throw everything at them etc, sometimes that is just giving them a pat and telling them â€˜thatâ€™s okay, you donâ€™t need to be riddenâ€™.

He clearly has a few things going on that makes it difficult to see the wood from the trees. I just fear you will keep throwing a lot of money after a horse who possibly would be better off  retired. Iâ€™ve been there, itâ€™s gutting! But once that decision is made itâ€™s actually a huge relief and all that worry that builds up dissipates.

Something to consider

ETA - quite a while ago you posted photos of your boy from a previous ownership and then in the state you got him from a dealer. Those photos were very very telling. Something pretty serious had happened to him in that time period for his shape to change so alarmingly, you will probably never know what unfortunately.


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## LaurenBay (15 July 2019)

HK You must be very confused, BUT wouldn't you rather know for sure so that when you ride you won't have all the questions? 

I'd go for option 2, if he is insured your insurance will cover costs. They will lunge him for you and provide a rider. 

I went back and fro with my mare and got saddle,teeth and loads of pysio before I got vet. I wish I had just saved the money and went for the vet as they found the issue. Didn't matter what saddle I rode in, she was still in pain.


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## only_me (15 July 2019)

Just wanted to say I wouldnâ€™t to be injecting steroids every 6 weeks as after time they wear off - Iâ€™d be aiming for every 3 months at least. Preferably more than that!

If you believe it is all just related to his hocks then Iâ€™d send him to rehab livery with a water treadmill or swimming pool who works closely with a Physio (not a chiro!!)  and get his muscles working correctly.

I still think you should have his hocks scanned to check for soft tissue damage and I would have thought that would have been done at same time of xrays tbh.

Iâ€™ve little experience of neuro issues in horses but purely on his behavior on ground I wouldnâ€™t be riding him.

If you put him out in field and retired him, with just maintaining his hocks, the money you would save on vets could potentially buy you a horse that can be ridden and enjoyed.


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## piglet2001 (15 July 2019)

ihatework said:



			Karen, genuine question with no hidden agenda. Have you considered how far you are wanting to dig with this horse in an effort to fix him? What sort of money you are wanting to spend?

There will be many of us on here that have had horses go wrong over the years - it is emotionally and financially draining. But sometimes as much as we want to do the right thing, throw everything at them etc, sometimes that is just giving them a pat and telling them â€˜thatâ€™s okay, you donâ€™t need to be riddenâ€™.

He clearly has a few things going on that makes it difficult to see the wood from the trees. I just fear you will keep throwing a lot of money after a horse who possibly would be better off  retired. Iâ€™ve been there, itâ€™s gutting! But once that decision is made itâ€™s actually a huge relief and all that worry that builds up dissipates.

Something to consider

ETA - quite a while ago you posted photos of your boy from a previous ownership and then in the state you got him from a dealer. Those photos were very very telling. Something pretty serious had happened to him in that time period for his shape to change so alarmingly, you will probably never know what unfortunately.
		
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Is there a chance you could link the before and after pictures for those of us that didn't see these. It would be interesting to see. Thanks


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## Horsekaren (15 July 2019)

i know it is unethical to ride a horse in pain but my issue is i have been told he isn't in pain. I have seen it with my eyes, he isn't reacting to anything, even the girthyness has settled which he has always done.  His hocks have been treated but im now a big ball of nerves frightened that i'm going to break him or he he is going to catapult me that i cant see if its worked.

In terms of how far i am going to dig, this is my horse, i cant afford another and i wouldn't just end his life if they say he cant be ridden. I only get one shot at this, all my eggs are in his basket, if he stops work, i stop my ridden journey with him. I know some people would PTS a horse that cant do what is needed but i just dont have it in me to do that, if he is retired to a field he is retired. He is my responsibility, He isn't just something i want to sit on he is my friend. I know that sounds like soft soppy mumbo jumbo but that is it. So it is important to me to do the right thing and not piss away the insurance money. If he was in unbareble pain then that is different.  

I will find the before and after pictures, but look closer, dont just see a big horse to a thin horse, look at how big he was, neither was good but the big picture looks like a health issue waiting to happen. He isnt a heavyweight cob!


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## ihatework (15 July 2019)

If you have insurance money left then you may as well use it. Just make sure you know what is/isnâ€™t covered otherwise you might find yourself out of pocket further.

I think you are too close to this and too inexperienced to really know the gravity (or not) of the situation. Iâ€™m actually not sat here thinking the horse shouldnâ€™t be ridden. But I think, if he is going to be ridden it needs to be by someone very experienced and impartial, away from your yard and with the view itâ€™s partly assessment, partly rehab and partly schooling. Someone who can really give you an insight into what they are currently feeling under saddle without the historical baggage/preconceptions - and importantly, someone who will come back to you if needed and say â€˜heâ€™s bust, save your moneyâ€™. But that wonâ€™t come cheap and wonâ€™t be under insurance.


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## LaurenBobby (15 July 2019)

I really feel for you HK, it cannot be easy with all the uncertainty.  If it was me and for my own piece of mind, I would want a full lameness investigation done with a trusted vet. At my vets we have a specialist lameness investigator vet, who Ive used previously and trust. If I did not have this and did not trust my local vets, or I thought they were going to send me round the houses, I would go to a referral vet. I know I could not settle until I knew the route cause. Sometimes there are more than one thing going on at once and its really hard to see the wood from the trees.


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## splashgirl45 (15 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			i know it is unethical to ride a horse in pain but my issue is i have been told he isn't in pain. I have seen it with my eyes, he isn't reacting to anything, even the girthyness has settled which he has always done.  His hocks have been treated but im now a big ball of nerves frightened that i'm going to break him or he he is going to catapult me that i cant see if its worked.

In terms of how far i am going to dig, this is my horse, i cant afford another and i wouldn't just end his life if they say he cant be ridden. I only get one shot at this, all my eggs are in his basket, if he stops work, i stop my ridden journey with him. I know some people would PTS a horse that cant do what is needed but i just dont have it in me to do that, if he is retired to a field he is retired. He is my responsibility, He isn't just something i want to sit on he is my friend. I know that sounds like soft soppy mumbo jumbo but that is it. So it is important to me to do the right thing and not piss away the insurance money. If he was in unbareble pain then that is different. 

I will find the before and after pictures, but look closer, dont just see a big horse to a thin horse, look at how big he was, neither was good but the big picture looks like a health issue waiting to happen. He isnt a heavyweight cob!
		
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i for one absolutely hear where you are coming from.  i was also a 1 horse owner and could barely afford her,  when she couldnt be ridden, i stopped riding and she was happy in the field, and so was i even though i couldnt ride, i still looked after her the same as before when she was in work.  when she wasnt comfortable in the field was the signal to PTS,  this was in 2016 and if she had been ok in the field i would still have her,  so i agree, just because they cant be ridden doesnt mean PTS ,  some people dont think the same and none of us are wrong but i agree with you.  good luck with finding out what is wrong...


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## Leo Walker (15 July 2019)

HK hes not right and you know that or you wouldnt be posting. I know you hoped the hock injections would fix it and I really did as well

I know how hard it is. I pushed mine who was sound but not quite right until there was a accident. I was incredibly lucky no one got hurt. He was retired on the spot as I didnt want to start investigating and putting us both through all that and he was clearly happy in the field. 

If you dont want to work him up at this point what about a second opinion? I've mentioned it a few times now but I would be on the phone to Tom Beech and doing whatever it took to get him out. Hes a vet, he wont mess you about. If he cant fix him he will refer you on, but hes had such good results with so many cases like this. He spends ages with you and is very much about looking at the whole horse. He will cost you a couple of hundred quid, you can put it through on the insurance if you have a claim open.

It doesnt have to be Tom Beech, he would be my choice but there are untold amounts of people you can get a second opinion from. You just need to pick someone who will listen to your concerns and take the whole horse and all the little niggly things into account.


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## ester (15 July 2019)

IHW the before and after pictures were also a big concern for me at the time and the longer this goes on I do worry that something rather big had happened to him in between times, like he'd had a big accident or something, it was absolutely not to do with his weight. I did try to find them again recently but it seemed the old links were broken.


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## Leo Walker (15 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			I will find the before and after pictures, but look closer, dont just see a big horse to a thin horse, look at how big he was, neither was good but the big picture looks like a health issue waiting to happen. He isnt a heavyweight cob!
		
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Get them out and do what you did with the videos. Its not about weight, he was fat and thats not good. Look at them very careful. Look at his posture and demeanor and compare it. Compare them to pictures of happy sound horses in similar poses and you will start to see what a lot of us here can see in a glance.

You also need to watch the video on pain face and lameness


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## Leo Walker (15 July 2019)

ester said:



			IHW the before and after pictures were also a big concern for me at the time and the longer this goes on I do worry that something rather big had happened to him in between times, like he'd had a big accident or something. I did try to find them again recently but it seemed the old links were broken.
		
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He was a quality driving horse who suddenly ended up at a dealers as a riding horse. Something very definitely went wrong. Sometimes its just an accident that damages them mentally, but I think in this case its looking like more than that.

Could you speak to the old owners?


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## Ellietotz (15 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			In terms of how far i am going to dig, this is my horse, i cant afford another and i wouldn't just end his life if they say he cant be ridden. I only get one shot at this, all my eggs are in his basket, if he stops work, i stop my ridden journey with him. I know some people would PTS a horse that cant do what is needed but i just dont have it in me to do that, if he is retired to a field he is retired. He is my responsibility, He isn't just something i want to sit on he is my friend. I know that sounds like soft soppy mumbo jumbo but that is it. So it is important to me to do the right thing and not piss away the insurance money. If he was in unbareble pain then that is different.
		
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That actually brought tears to my eyes. He's really lucky to have someone like you. 
I really hope you get to the bottom of all of this soon, you've done so much already. Even if it does mean you have to retire him, as long as he is turned out in a field to live out the rest of his days and you are certain he is pain free, that's the main thing.


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## Horsekaren (15 July 2019)

So this will no doubt add more confusion but in my head i think he was fat, he went on a diet, he was coming out of winter thin and then in February he found himself in a dealers yard, living out with no grass but some sort of straw, he was stressed and he dropped a lot of weight. 

His neck is cresty in the first pic

Pic one - is the pic at the home before his last home before the dealers
Pic two was when i picked him up (i will say the vet said on his 5 stage that he didnt need to be fattened up he needed muscle) 
Pic 3 is how his weight has pretty much been give or take a bit into summer.
(i keep in my mind that last pic was 8 weeks ago) he had never looked so good! 

IHATEWORK - i couldnt agree with you any more, that is what i need, i want someone new to get on him, feel him, tell me what is going on listen to him. where the hell do i find this.


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## ester (15 July 2019)

The thing is it is so very rare for cobs to come out of winter poor unless they have other stuff gong on. Though as I said earlier there is a lot more going on in his earlier (dealer and soon after) pics and videos than just his weight. 

I do think he does look better in the time you have had him but he has still never really looked comfortable and has so many 'things' going on for a horse of his age, even the jogging/running off in trot is a continued red flag to me.


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## ihatework (15 July 2019)

I can suggest someone, but itâ€™s out of your area and Â£220 a week. I reckon you would want a minimum of 4 weeks to really assess.

Iâ€™d also be inclined to consider whether this is better done before or after a referral vet. I donâ€™t know because Iâ€™ve never seen the horse in the flesh to get a good gut feel.


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## Ellietotz (15 July 2019)

It's hard to tell from a couple of pictures but his expression is completely different in the first picture to what it is in the third. In the third picture, he almost has the same expression as he does in the second.


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## ester (15 July 2019)

He does, but I think it's hard for us to really explain what that is/what we are seeing.


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## LaurenBobby (15 July 2019)

I agree with Ellietotz, he is fat in the first picture, but looks happy to me?


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## TPO (15 July 2019)

Surely if there was "something" that happened in between pic 1 and 2 the vet would have picked it/something up during 5 stage vetting done at the time of pic 2?

Clearly the dealer hasn't muscled him up or "ridden him through" anything when he was so weak. If he was "broken" by something between pic 1 & 2 I would imagine him to be at his most broken at that point. Even if dealer had turned him away and sold from the field the 5 stage should have picked up something and bloods would have been taken that could still be tested now if that's a concern.

Is the vet that done the vetting the same vet that you currently use?

Pic 3 would be the one that concerned me. It's just a snapshot of time and I have no idea what's going on, he's possibly just gone disunited, but that's not the correct footfall. Again just a moment in time but with that footfall while flexed to the inside and a tail swish (again could all just be timing) _could_ be an indicator of something. However I'm aware that this was before his hocks were injected.

I think it's also worth remember that OP is posting because she is concerned and trying to do her best by the horse. She has a vet telling her that he is pain free and to crack on with riding and another vet who's been on the scene for a while now culminating in the hocks being injected. OP does appear to be trying to do the best that she can by her horse, evidenced by previous posts where she has taken on board suggestions and implanted changes. 

It's always hard to be in the position and even harder with randoms on the internet giving conflicting opinions to the qualified experts who've seen him on the flesh. I'm not saying that randoms can't be right and that professionals can't be wrong (I know that first hand!) but OP clearly distressed so perhaps a bit of consideration prior to posting. There's nothing to be achieved by "shaming" someone when they are looking for help, advice and support.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2019)

In my view itâ€™s not ethical to retire a horse to a field who canâ€™t lie down for rem sleep .


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## JFTDWS (15 July 2019)

A diet and a rough winter won't do that to a fat cob.  You're looking at serious weight loss there - and god knows weight loss is a desirable thing with a fat cob, but only for the right reasons, and within a spectrum.  That's not normal.

A 5 stage vetting will often miss a subtle or complex issue (and, indeed, I've known many sail through vettings with pretty significant issues).


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## Leo Walker (15 July 2019)

The time scale is just right though for an incident. Chuck him out and leave him over the winter, have him in next to no work and sell. Horse looks sound, comes into work, isnt right but its too late to do anything by then. Maybe I'm cynical but dealers dont hold on to pretty looking, nice, safe cobs all winter for no reason.


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## Leo Walker (15 July 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			In my view itâ€™s not ethical to retire a horse to a field who canâ€™t lie down for rem sleep .
		
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As someone who doesnt sleep well thats probably true. Its hard functioning when you are always tired and it does affect every aspect of your life. I know when I do sleep properly I feel like a different person!


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## Horsekaren (15 July 2019)

Leo Walker said:



			He was a quality driving horse who suddenly ended up at a dealers as a riding horse. Something very definitely went wrong. Sometimes its just an accident that damages them mentally, but I think in this case its looking like more than that.

Could you speak to the old owners?
		
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I dont think he looked much different when he was driven, i have tracked them down in the past, they said he loved his driving, they broke him for it. He was broken to be ridden at this home too. They said they sold him because the didnt have time for him but they did have a friesion and a stocking big 17,3 hanovarian grey so they had time for horses but not him. So i think he was turned away a bit and left to get fat whilst they didnt have the time. I did send this owner the thin pictures of him and he said he wished he has never sold him seeing what had happened to him. From here he went to a girl which rode him, hacked him, jumped him, showed him, dressage ect she then sold him to what she was told was a family home in kent but i called her to ask about him and she said she had been tricked by the dealer and was very upset to see the picture of him. I still speak to her everynow and again.


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## Horsekaren (15 July 2019)

Leo Walker said:



			The time scale is just right though for an incident. Chuck him out and leave him over the winter, have him in next to no work and sell. Horse looks sound, comes into work, isnt right but its too late to do anything by then. Maybe I'm cynical but dealers dont hold on to pretty looking, nice, safe cobs all winter for no reason.
		
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He was with the dealer for 3 weeks, that is all


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## ihatework (15 July 2019)

What a lovely picture of him in harness!


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## LaurenBay (15 July 2019)

He is very beautiful HK, I hope you can get to the bottom of his issues. It is very clear that you love him dearly. I really do feel for you, I was in the same situation and I know how crappy it is.


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## tristar (15 July 2019)

i feel exactly how you feel about horses, they are my friends, they are part of me, i would miss them more as people than the riding, which is also very important to me.

one day you will be a super rider trainer, because your devotion to horses will guide you there, it is so obvious in every post you make.

i see in the first video a horse swerve slightly and buckle in a lame fashion, i have had very ``loose`` horse athletic horses who have done things like this when there was nothing wrong with them

the short step behind for me anyway could indicate an injury some time where the back and quarters meet region, maybe something happened to him before you got him.

the lay down thing, when down could he become stiff from the immobility or he is lieing on some part of him that is uncomfortable

i`ve had horses with mysteries and mis diagnoses and non diagnoses,who to my mind have passed through pathologies by the nature of which have gone through the life cycle of the pathology and got better and lived into old age

tumours on the spine can cause symptoms undiagnosed until post mortem 

if he was mine i would keep playing with him, lunging on surface, not an hard ground keep him moving do anything , stretches popping a pole, walking out in hand you can see if he is hurting and stop but maybe not ride,  till you know more, although i see why you tried  it was to see if anything was different, but riding after  long lay off can give false readings, like the too lively problem, i would not let him just become unfit unless that is indicated

there will be a vet somewhere who has seen all this before because in the history of horses yours is not the first to be like this , he is not the first horse in the world to be like this, i hope that may be some comfort, i  see this as your mission to find that person who can say, yes i have some idea what it could be, you need that person.

on the saddle if i was to try anything i would use a wide saddle almost too wide and use a prolite pad to lift it, i use tgs and prolite pads

all this is just thoughts not written in stone, hope you can make some progress soon in a positive direction


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## Regandal (15 July 2019)

I agree, Tom Beech or Rob Jackson. Not cheap, but either of them should be able to tell you if heâ€™s fixable. 
Good luck, heâ€™s a lovely boy. X


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## ester (15 July 2019)

Good point about the 3rd pic TPO.


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## quizzie (15 July 2019)

[QUOTE="Horsekaren,
A few of you mentioned wobblers, I'm not a vet but In my heart I really donâ€™t think this is the issue, he is coordinated, can turn tight circles, will react to a tail pull ect.  [/QUOTE]

Just to clarify, some have mentioned wobblers. others have ,mentioned neck and neurological issues....the term wobblers is often used as shorthand for neck issues, but there are many other causes, many of which will be negative for the classic tests.

....wobblers is a specific condition of instability of the neck vertebrae which means that when the neck is moved in a certain way, pressure is applied to the spinal cord causing odd gait/balance anomalies particularly of the hind quarters.

....injuries to the neck, causing bony changes such as facet joint arthritis.....or soft tissue swellings....or disc problems, can also cause neurlogical or gait anomalies, but because the actual vertebrae are stable, the specific wobbler tests may be negative.....however certain movements such as that shown in your 1st video can cause pinching/pressure.  The 2nd video could also show issues deep in the C6/C7 region, as lying down/getting up may trigger pain, and hence reluctance to lie down/stay lying down  and hence sleep deprivation.

....if the neck has not been fully examined, please don't discount it as the primary site of issue. Also be aware that, contrary to what you might expect, some issues will show on X-ray/some on bone scan....but not necessarily on both!..and some need other tests to show up!.


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## Horsekaren (15 July 2019)

this was the only time i see him down in the feild, this was about a year a go, about 5 am, i watched him start to gnaw as his leg and then he sat like that for a min then got up. I know i over analyse but doesnt look like a droopy snoorey horse, looks uncomfortable.


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## Hormonal Filly (15 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			Well, well , well!
Chiro vet was actually super pleased with him! Actually she was sooo soooo sooooo pleased I didnâ€™t see that coming! No pain over his si what so ever, happy over his back, shoulders, a bit tense over pole but nothing ab normal. She said he was tracking up about a foot more than last time which is amazing. She said he has got issues with his hocks so he is never going to track up like a Thorobred, itâ€™s not in his build then add the hock situation so I need to accept he is always going to be a bit shorter behind than some horses.

I showed her both videos, she is going to send to rossdales to see what they think, but thought neurological. she told me to get back on board, aim for four mins of walking with a contact, but take it easy, so tomorrow Iâ€™m going to hop on for 15 mins of walk on long rein ( straight line hack) 4 mins of a walk on contact and then a min or two of trot on a long rein. If the issues are still there then that will be clear.
I literally cannot believe all the pain has gone over his back, she couldnâ€™t touch him without him moving away and flinching four weeks ago.

very happy with the visit but confused, essentially I need to get back on to see what he does.

Fingers and toes crossed!
		
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The physio (vet recommended, the best they said) was also extremely happy with my little cob when she came to see him in December. He wasn't going 'right' which is why she came out and basically she couldn't find a single thing really. He didn't really show any neurological issues or any tense areas, she was happier with him than my other horse! She wrote down he felt nice and not needing to revisit.. I went away feeling its me riding him wrong, yet he continued to act unhappy.

When the vet re visited within a matter of weeks, we x-rayed his full body as a last resort and it showed severe neck arthritis and hock arthritis. She was a excellent physio, but just shows they can't tell whats happening underneath but it was idea as the vet was struggling himself to find the issue until x-rays showed us. To add, he is co-ordinated.. you wouldn't ever think he had neck issues. It really can affect any horse and especially cobs. 

I haven't red all of the replies, has he been in for a full work up yet at a vets? The videos make me think something neck related.. its so much more common than we think, a specialist told me that last week. Specially considering she mentioned neurological.. Do you ever notice if he trips in front?


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## Laafet (15 July 2019)

I am so sorry, you are having so much stress. I do feel for you. Personally if the insurance agrees I'd go straight to a big vet referral clinic for a work up. Rossdales are my regular vet which is handy as I don't get charged extra for using them. They are top notch and if you can afford the diagnostics then they have all the kit.
A word on your hock injections, I was surprised at how long your vet said they lasted. Mine last around a year or so, less if he's working hard or his management is not up to scratch (i.e. restricted turn out, lots in the school and no hacking). This seems to be standard I thought.


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## milliepops (15 July 2019)

ForbiddenHorse said:



			. Specially considering she mentioned neurological.. Do you ever notice if he trips in front?
		
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my neuro compromised horse never trips, what she does do is look where she's going, was obvious when vet pointed it out but I had never noticed.  Especially  over steps or sloping ground etc. Just mentioning because they can all be so different, rather than thinking it applies in this case.


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## LaurenBay (15 July 2019)

The problem is HK, there could be so many issues, a couple of issues or no issues (other then hocks) but you're never going to know for sure until he is looked at from head to toe by a professional. if you ask 50 people you will get 50 different opinions, and the questions you have cannot be answered from pics. None of us can tell you what exactly is wrong, only a vet with specialist equipment will be able to answer all your questions and put your mind at rest. Until he is looked at, it really is a guessing game.


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## flying_high (15 July 2019)

I think you need to book him in for a lameness assessment. A place at a really good referral place of your choice, with a good expert, in holiday season might take a 2-4 weeks to book.

I'd get saddles both checked in mean time, if can.

I'd work him every day for 7 days before the lameness assessment (in what ever way you feel is safe and effective). If work makes issue worse, you want it to show up on the day.

I would ask for the referral place to do the lunging and riding so you can watch and so you are removed from the equation.

If he is prone to adrenaline based soundness in a new place / post travelling, I'd stable him at the vets the night before assessment.

IF he presents sounds to all initial assessments at the vets, they wont take a lameness work up further, and the cost wont be that high.

IF he presents with an issue, you are in the best place to investigate it.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2019)

I think I would start with a bone scan.
With all these things itâ€™s a question of resource , but the horse needs a proper work up from a vet who is specialist in this type of work 
These things are all costly .
If a bone scan shows alot of issues then I think I would call it a day a horse like that can cost 5k in a heartbeat and you have to be practical .
Many of us have been through similar itâ€™s not easy but itâ€™s just horses thatâ€™s what happens sometimes .
Sometimes even if you have unlimited resource you canâ€™t make things right for them


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## Horse2018 (15 July 2019)

With all your problems youâ€™re having with  him and his hocks not being to good I would retire him if I was you before more problems start to pop up  . A cob dropping that much weight isnâ€™t normal.


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## LaurenBay (15 July 2019)

Horse2018 said:



			With all your problems youâ€™re having him and his hocks not being to good I would retire him if I was you before more problems start to pop up  . A cob dropping that much weight isnâ€™t normal.
		
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Without even knowing what the actual issue is? Hundreds of Horses are still in work with hock arthritis and they are fine. We are so lucky to have so many different treatments nowa days. Seems a shame to retire right away without even trying to fix the issue. Especially since the Horse is insured so OP has some money to spend.


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## gunnergundog (15 July 2019)

Which county do you live in HK?


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## Hormonal Filly (15 July 2019)

milliepops said:



			my neuro compromised horse never trips, what she does do is look where she's going, was obvious when vet pointed it out but I had never noticed.  Especially  over steps or sloping ground etc. Just mentioning because they can all be so different, rather than thinking it applies in this case.
		
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Oh definitely - some show no symptoms but don't feel right to ride, that was pretty much mine. I just mentioned it as the specialist said that was a common symptom. 

Agree with everyone, book in for a lameness work up as next thing.


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## ester (15 July 2019)

Essex iirc, hence having lots of referral options.


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## Horsekaren (15 July 2019)

quizzie said:



			[QUOTE="Horsekaren,
A few of you mentioned wobblers, I'm not a vet but In my heart I really donâ€™t think this is the issue, he is coordinated, can turn tight circles, will react to a tail pull ect.
		
Click to expand...

Just to clarify, some have mentioned wobblers. others have ,mentioned neck and neurological issues....the term wobblers is often used as shorthand for neck issues, but there are many other causes, many of which will be negative for the classic tests.

....wobblers is a specific condition of instability of the neck vertebrae which means that when the neck is moved in a certain way, pressure is applied to the spinal cord causing odd gait/balance anomalies particularly of the hind quarters.

....injuries to the neck, causing bony changes such as facet joint arthritis.....or soft tissue swellings....or disc problems, can also cause neurlogical or gait anomalies, but because the actual vertebrae are stable, the specific wobbler tests may be negative.....however certain movements such as that shown in your 1st video can cause pinching/pressure.  The 2nd video could also show issues deep in the C6/C7 region, as lying down/getting up may trigger pain, and hence reluctance to lie down/stay lying down  and hence sleep deprivation.

....if the neck has not been fully examined, please don't discount it as the primary site of issue. Also be aware that, contrary to what you might expect, some issues will show on X-ray/some on bone scan....but not necessarily on both!..and some need other tests to show up!.[/QUOTE]


I didn't realize it was a term used, i thought it was a specific thing.
I like the wording you have used above, so flipping it on its head and forget the back end and focus on the neck.

- he head shakes this time of year
-very stiff on left rein when ridden (see clip)
-he can do stretches but finds the left side hard.
-he did the same with a better rider on board
-clipping, perfect everywhere apart from neck, could be coincidence

When other people have ridden him they have said as soon as you play the rein to sit him back onto one of his hinds ( the video below is clear, (slo mo) he struggles. So how the neck issue is worded above is making me think. its not the best clip but i have him on the left rein, i ask him (all be it poorly) to come around to the left, im using leg too and he does that thing behind, i get scared and allow him to continue to the right. As soon as i back off and give in he continues fairly normally on the right rein. I think this is what happened on the long lines, i went to steer him to the left around the bush, ive then got scared backed off as soon as he does that thing and he has carried on and had a look at the bush. Do you see that, is that the same thing? So if what i'm seeing is right and it is coming from a play on the rein would that say neck or back end? If there is something going on in the neck would the hocks compensate for this somehow. If the stiffness is found on a ridden work up at a vets would they think neck or legs. Could that explain the jogging when i try and bring him back?   would that be thrown out the window when he will go fine on the left rein lunge?







I know this is all questions for vets but i am just taking it all in and thinking out loud.


When it comes to insurance, i will claim for his hocks, if i have a work up done and they say neck or neuro ect would those be two claims?  or does it all fall under one investigate? 


Flying High- i really like that idea, if he is fine they wont find anything. 

Goldenstar - i understand what you're saying, but in the grand scheme of things in terms of digging, we haven't dug that far, if anything by the pain over the SI disappearing and him trotting up better we can stop homing in on there and see a bigger picture so it might be blessing.  I know i might not be able to get him right, but as of yet i haven't really tried as im mulling everything over as to spend the insurance the best way i can. 


I am appreciating all of the experiences yous are sharing, i cant quote every post but i'm taking them all in. Thank you for the kind words too, i'm feeling less like smashing my heading into the wall this afternoon.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2019)

How much have you got left on the insurance ?
You need to spend it with the right vet .
Thatâ€™s a specialist in work ups who understands whatâ€™s possible and not possible in terms of costs .
BTw is there any evidence he may have broken his pelvis because that what he looks like , a horse I know who was returned home from another yard with a broken pelvis .


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## HobleytheTB (15 July 2019)

Don't know if this is helpful or not RE neck stiffness - a friends cob was getting increasingly heavy on the left rein, to the point that you'd come away with an aching left arm/shoulder. X ray showed neck arthritis at, I think, one or maybe two areas. He has been much improved after having the area medicated, may need it doing again in the future. I think a neck x ray might be beneficial in your case, may be getting these complex symptoms due to multiple areas of pain, i.e hocks plus neck.


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## ester (15 July 2019)

That is the issue with insurance, and your vets doing a bit of it rather than one single work up as it can depend if anything is found if he isn't 'lame' and it's done as more of a loss of performance workup with regards to payout too (though I suspect it would be) and it just makes it a bit more complicated.


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## Horsekaren (15 July 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			How much have you got left on the insurance ?
You need to spend it with the right vet .
Thatâ€™s a specialist in work ups who understands whatâ€™s possible and not possible in terms of costs .
BTw is there any evidence he may have broken his pelvis because that what he looks like , a horse I know who was returned home from another yard with a broken pelvis .
		
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If he broke his pelvis he would have done so at Liphook as he didnt do any of this jogging, locking ect until i sent him there for his breathing issues, he came back a different horse. I said on here that he keeps jogging when i got on him and wouldnt walk. it was put down to a horse feeling better but if i had been more experienced i think i would have thought more. When i collected him i was told he was cheeky and i know he can be but the more i think about it the more i wonder if he was a twit and injured himself there. I know that sounds crazy but he never jogged before then. He was poorly with his breathing, he was trying to kill me with his behavior but all everyone kept saying was he is so good and calm to ride that he was worth fighting for. That horse never came back, the joggy hard to ride one returned.


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## ester (15 July 2019)

HK re. that video to me shows him throwing his head up and then taking the dodgy step with the left hind, in that order rather than struggling initially with the left hind and then reacting with his head. It's not about being on the left rein particularly but hypothetically could be his neck just ending up in just the wrong spot, he reacts and then the hind takes it's funky step. IMO he isn't taking that sort of step as a result of you asking for him to come back and carry the weight behind.

Please make sure that anyone who takes him on has a very full list of all his issues since you have had him. He really needs a holistic approach not a well we will look at his back legs, or his back or his neck.


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## Hormonal Filly (15 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			I know this is all questions for vets but i am just taking it all in and thinking out loud.
		
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Your vets should be able to make it a separate claim. My cob is 14.1 and only just 10, he was very similar to yours especially the last video. His right rein was similar, he HATED bending right. He also has arthritic hocks yet he was never lame, which is why he was tough to find the problem. He also finds carrot stretches one side more difficult than the other. 2 vets couldn't work out the issue until we x-rayed, one even said hes taking the piss push him on.

I think your be best of calling your vet to expressing your concerns and ask for advise, rather than getting worried on here (and over thinking, like I do) We haven't seen the horse so its so difficult for us to give opinion and a vet knows best. 
Its quite simple to x-ray the the neck can show if theres any issues or even better a CT scan. Neck x-rays cost me around Â£200 on the yard 6 months ago, so if you had to pay it isn't that crazy and as I was paying it was cheaper than the insurance (funny that!) It may be nothing related to his neck, but what you're saying reminds me of what I was going through.

Either send him to the vets or ask for a vet to visit you with the portable x-ray machine, but the x-rays have to be their recommendation if you're claiming. Best of luck.. I hope you find the issue


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## SEL (15 July 2019)

I have a friend whose cob is on v high doses of magnesium in order to lie down and sleep. No one understands what is up or why it works but it does.

For all those saying the drop in weight over winter is abnormal - i have a 14.2 draft who does the same if he's just out at grass. Needs food pumping into him from Jan onwards or he looks like a rescue case.

Personally I would ask for a referral for a full work up specifically including riding. Mainly because I didn't push issues with my mare and we're not covered by insurance and still not right under saddle.


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## Pinkvboots (15 July 2019)

I really feel for you it's really tough I know but while you have the claim going send him to a good place and get them to do a work up tell them everything that's happened at least you know then.

And there is nothing wrong with keeping him as a retired horse if he can't be ridden, don't feel like your being silly your not lots of people do it I've done it.

I really hope you get to the bottom of it and I really hope he can be fixed.


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## Pearlsasinger (15 July 2019)

ForbiddenHorse said:



			The physio (vet recommended, the best they said) was also extremely happy with my little cob when she came to see him in December. He wasn't going 'right' which is why she came out and basically she couldn't find a single thing really. He didn't really show any neurological issues or any tense areas, she was happier with him than my other horse! She wrote down he felt nice and not needing to revisit.. I went away feeling its me riding him wrong, yet he continued to act unhappy.

When the vet re visited within a matter of weeks, we x-rayed his full body as a last resort and it showed severe neck arthritis and hock arthritis. She was a excellent physio, but just shows they can't tell whats happening underneath but it was idea as the vet was struggling himself to find the issue until x-rays showed us. To add, he is co-ordinated.. you wouldn't ever think he had neck issues. It really can affect any horse and especially cobs.

I haven't red all of the replies, has he been in for a full work up yet at a vets? The videos make me think something neck related.. its so much more common than we think, a specialist told me that last week. Specially considering she mentioned neurological.. Do you ever notice if he trips in front?
		
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Our Appaloosa, who had AppyxAnglo-Arab breeding, so definitely not a cob, had a problem that really only showed up in trot, she 'stuttered'.  A very experieiced instructor/friend suggested that it could be caused by an issue with the poll.  Specialist vet came out diagnosed poll and neck problems, used acupuncture to treat and she was like a different horse.
OP I had a horse who was retired for over 12 years, so I understand how you feel but I did have other horses as well.  And I knew that she was happy as a field ornament/companion, not in any pain.


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## flying_high (15 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			If he broke his pelvis he would have done so at Liphook as he didnt do any of this jogging, locking ect until i sent him there for his breathing issues, he came back a different horse. I said on here that he keeps jogging when i got on him and wouldnt walk. it was put down to a horse feeling better but if i had been more experienced i think i would have thought more. When i collected him i was told he was cheeky and i know he can be but the more i think about it the more i wonder if he was a twit and injured himself there. I know that sounds crazy but he never jogged before then. He was poorly with his breathing, he was trying to kill me with his behavior but all everyone kept saying was he is so good and calm to ride that he was worth fighting for. That horse never came back, the joggy hard to ride one returned.
		
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Alternately, and speaking as an allergic asthmatic, if you cant breath well, you will be very docile. Maybe fixing the breathing issue has allowed the true forward thinking joggy nature to surface? Maybe he never was truly quiet? Just speculating.


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## Horsekaren (15 July 2019)

flying_high said:



			Alternately, and speaking as an allergic asthmatic, if you cant breath well, you will be very docile. Maybe fixing the breathing issue has allowed the true forward thinking joggy nature to surface? Maybe he never was truly quiet? Just speculating.
		
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I really dont think so, i had him a year before he went to liphook. The jogging isn't like he is trying to run off or prance, its possibly slower than walk, its just strange. He honestly never did that once before. He did it from the very first time i got on him when he came home. His breathing issues weren't fixed right away so it wasn't like he was suddenly cured.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2019)

I meant might he have fallen and hurt himself at the dealer


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## Abi90 (15 July 2019)

I feel for you HK, last year I had some unexplained behaviour from my horse and it took a long time and a lot of money to get to the bottom of it. I wish you luck!!


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## scats (15 July 2019)

I really feel for you OP.  I was in a situation last year with a horse who had a bit of a question mark on her background and I had various professionals tell me that there was nothing wrong with her and that she was sound.  But I had a horse that under saddle was exhibiting the signs of a very uncomfortable animal.

If it were me, I would send him in for a complete lameness investigation.  Perhaps starting with a full body bone scan to see if they can pick up any areas of activity that might give a clue as to where there is an issue (if itâ€™s a bone issue, that is) and then start scanning.


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## flying_high (15 July 2019)

scats said:



			I really feel for you OP.  I was in a situation last year with a horse who had a bit of a question mark on her background and I had various professionals tell me that there was nothing wrong with her and that she was sound.  But I had a horse that under saddle was exhibiting the signs of a very uncomfortable animal.

If it were me, I would send him in for a complete lameness investigation.  Perhaps starting with a full body bone scan to see if they can pick up any areas of activity that might give a clue as to where there is an issue (if itâ€™s a bone issue, that is) and then start scanning.
		
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Bone scans pick up areas of increased activity e.g. heat etc. They will pick up soft tissue injuries too. Painfully expensive, but useful


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## scats (15 July 2019)

flying_high said:



			Bone scans pick up areas of increased activity e.g. heat etc. They will pick up soft tissue injuries too. Painfully expensive, but useful
		
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Ah ok, my vets told me that they werenâ€™t the best at picking up soft tissue injuries.  Iâ€™ve had two horses have bone scans and their soft tissue injuries werenâ€™t picked up on, unfortunately.


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## ihatework (15 July 2019)

flying_high said:



			Bone scans pick up areas of increased activity e.g. heat etc. They will pick up soft tissue injuries too. Painfully expensive, but useful
		
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I think your understanding is a bit limited.

Bone scans use a radioactive tracer that identifies areas of bone turnover. They donâ€™t detect heat, but on the scans any active areas are called hotspots so can understand your confusion. They are not a scan that can diagnose soft tissue damage, they are for bone. You really get a very limited â€˜imageâ€™. That said if you have a hotspot it can sometimes direct you to image surrounding soft tissue using different diagnostics - eg high suspensories at point of insertion can sometimes show some localised bone turnover.


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## scats (15 July 2019)

ihatework said:



			I think your understanding is a bit limited.

Bone scans use a radioactive tracer that identifies areas of bone turnover. They donâ€™t detect heat, but on the scans any active areas are called hotspots so can understand your confusion. They are not a scan that can diagnose soft tissue damage, they are for bone. You really get a very limited â€˜imageâ€™. That said if you have a hotspot it can sometimes direct you to image surrounding soft tissue using different diagnostics - eg high suspensories at point of insertion can sometimes show some localised bone turnover.
		
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That was the impression I was under, thank you for explaining.


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## tristar (15 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			If he broke his pelvis he would have done so at Liphook as he didnt do any of this jogging, locking ect until i sent him there for his breathing issues, he came back a different horse. I said on here that he keeps jogging when i got on him and wouldnt walk. it was put down to a horse feeling better but if i had been more experienced i think i would have thought more. When i collected him i was told he was cheeky and i know he can be but the more i think about it the more i wonder if he was a twit and injured himself there. I know that sounds crazy but he never jogged before then. He was poorly with his breathing, he was trying to kill me with his behavior but all everyone kept saying was he is so good and calm to ride that he was worth fighting for. That horse never came back, the joggy hard to ride one returned.
		
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no you are not crazy, if you know he was different then he was, he could have got cast or kicked or slipped and done something in the pelvic region something has changed don`t think its your imagination

has he been worm counted does he show any ulcer symptoms

keep taking all the videos  and photos you can you may even find a vet out of the country who can help or a very long way away, i know someone in france 

sometimes the most dramatic symptoms turn out to be something simple and the subtle ones the most seriious


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## cobgoblin (15 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			Neck possibly has a bit part to play or it is secondary to something behind.

eyes- i like the curve ball idea but its not his eyes, he often sets towards objects on purpose, if there is a cone or a barrel in an area he often makes a b line for them just to kick them over. He knew the bush was there.

Feet, possibly, vet said he was slightly foot sore on one of his fronts on hard ground but wasnt concerned.

Scats- When you say suspensory is this below his hock? would you think the issue is above or below the hock?

YCBM - its got something to do with putting the weight back i am sure of it. He is insured. The Arthritis is by no means severe, its very early stages which makes me wonder if this is secondary. regardless i doubt the injections have helped if he has done this within a week.

I will research wobblers but i think i have looked at this before and it doesnt seem right, its a response to pain. if you add the below video to the equation, this is him sleeping, he does this a fare bit. he doesnt lay down but will roll a lot. Its like he cant lock something he should be able to. Or its sleep deprivation which is what vet suggested before but could it all be linked?  The clip was after he was let out of box rest so the poor thing was exhausted, i would say he probably does this 1 - 3 times a day. Vet not concerned 






To add he is asleep in this clip, starting to go into REM, he isnt just stretching, he falls and it wakes him up slowely. i'm sure that clear but ive been told a few times he is stretching *roles eyes*


He is insured and i really want answers.
		
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This video  looks like a hypnopompic jerk... Possibly due to sleep deprivation. 
I think this could be a red herring as regards the real problem.


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## Horsekaren (15 July 2019)

Iâ€™ve made up my mind, Iâ€™m going to ask for my vets to refer him to rossdales for a ridden work up, I tried to get a minute of trot out of him on grass and he just locked on the left today, a bit abnormal behind so thatâ€™s that, yesterday he didnâ€™t show me anything clear and today he did. Iâ€™ll arrange a day off to take him and stay with him whilst itâ€™s going on and take it from there. 

May mission fix Strawberry commence! 

Iâ€™ll keep you all posted x


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## Horse2018 (15 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			Just to clarify, some have mentioned wobblers. others have ,mentioned neck and neurological issues....the term wobblers is often used as shorthand for neck issues, but there are many other causes, many of which will be negative for the classic tests.

....wobblers is a specific condition of instability of the neck vertebrae which means that when the neck is moved in a certain way, pressure is applied to the spinal cord causing odd gait/balance anomalies particularly of the hind quarters.

....injuries to the neck, causing bony changes such as facet joint arthritis.....or soft tissue swellings....or disc problems, can also cause neurlogical or gait anomalies, but because the actual vertebrae are stable, the specific wobbler tests may be negative.....however certain movements such as that shown in your 1st video can cause pinching/pressure.  The 2nd video could also show issues deep in the C6/C7 region, as lying down/getting up may trigger pain, and hence reluctance to lie down/stay lying down  and hence sleep deprivation.

....if the neck has not been fully examined, please don't discount it as the primary site of issue. Also be aware that, contrary to what you might expect, some issues will show on X-ray/some on bone scan....but not necessarily on both!..and some need other tests to show up!.
		
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I didn't realize it was a term used, i thought it was a specific thing.
I like the wording you have used above, so flipping it on its head and forget the back end and focus on the neck.

- he head shakes this time of year
-very stiff on left rein when ridden (see clip)
-he can do stretches but finds the left side hard.
-he did the same with a better rider on board
-clipping, perfect everywhere apart from neck, could be coincidence

When other people have ridden him they have said as soon as you play the rein to sit him back onto one of his hinds ( the video below is clear, (slo mo) he struggles. So how the neck issue is worded above is making me think. its not the best clip but i have him on the left rein, i ask him (all be it poorly) to come around to the left, im using leg too and he does that thing behind, i get scared and allow him to continue to the right. As soon as i back off and give in he continues fairly normally on the right rein. I think this is what happened on the long lines, i went to steer him to the left around the bush, ive then got scared backed off as soon as he does that thing and he has carried on and had a look at the bush. Do you see that, is that the same thing? So if what i'm seeing is right and it is coming from a play on the rein would that say neck or back end? If there is something going on in the neck would the hocks compensate for this somehow. If the stiffness is found on a ridden work up at a vets would they think neck or legs. Could that explain the jogging when i try and bring him back?   would that be thrown out the window when he will go fine on the left rein lunge?







I know this is all questions for vets but i am just taking it all in and thinking out loud.


When it comes to insurance, i will claim for his hocks, if i have a work up done and they say neck or neuro ect would those be two claims?  or does it all fall under one investigate?


Flying High- i really like that idea, if he is fine they wont find anything.

Goldenstar - i understand what you're saying, but in the grand scheme of things in terms of digging, we haven't dug that far, if anything by the pain over the SI disappearing and him trotting up better we can stop homing in on there and see a bigger picture so it might be blessing.  I know i might not be able to get him right, but as of yet i haven't really tried as im mulling everything over as to spend the insurance the best way i can.


I am appreciating all of the experiences yous are sharing, i cant quote every post but i'm taking them all in. Thank you for the kind words too, i'm feeling less like smashing my heading into the wall this afternoon.[/QUOTE]

I saw a few articles on these condition  you should get him tested it called Degenerative suspensory ligament desmitis


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## Horse2018 (15 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			Iâ€™ve made up my mind, Iâ€™m going to ask for my vets to refer him to rossdales for a ridden work up, I tried to get a minute of trot out of him on grass and he just locked on the left today, a bit abnormal behind so thatâ€™s that, yesterday he didnâ€™t show me anything clear and today he did. Iâ€™ll arrange a day off to take him and stay with him whilst itâ€™s going on and take it from there.

May mission fix Strawberry commence!

Iâ€™ll keep you all posted x
		
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Get him tested for Degenerative suspensory ligament desmitis


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## splashgirl45 (15 July 2019)

HK,  just to say lots of luck when he goes to rossdales....i would take your videos as well so they can see what he has been doing.  fingers crossed they will find a problem and will be able to treat  it....


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## ester (15 July 2019)

agreed they definitely need all the information you have and I'd be clear to them that you want it fully investigated if though he is 'just' a pony/cob. I think some of the referral centres get more used to doing full work ups on sport horse types.


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## emfen1305 (15 July 2019)

I have nothing else to add on top of what others have said but just wanted to say I really feel for you. Iâ€™m also a one horse owner and know what it is like to go round and round trying to solve problems. I wish you the best of luck and will keep everything crossed for positive news for you and your lovely boy!


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## {97702} (15 July 2019)

Sadly it appears that you have a horse here with major issues who personally I would not be looking to ride again, at best Iâ€™d be hoping for a happy healthy retirement. You can throw as much money as you wish at it, but unfortunately my believe is that this is the best you will achieve.

If you want to pursue finding out what it is to the nth degree that is entirely your perogative, but personally thatâ€™s not my way. 

I wish you the best of luck in achieving a happy, pain free life for him ðŸ˜Š

Edited - and I truly hope itâ€™s not too late - for unduly forthright language. I apologise OP, there was no need â˜¹ï¸


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## Sandstone1 (15 July 2019)

Good luck.  Hope you get him sorted out.


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## oldie48 (15 July 2019)

Your horse is lucky to have found you and I sincerely hope that you find the cause of his problems and that it is "sortable".


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## AdorableAlice (15 July 2019)

Very best of luck.  A practical tip from me, as i would never have a guess at what is ailing him, leave that to the experts and their machines.  Take the feathers off him, present him to the vets clean legged and cut his tail level with the hocks.  With the feather and hair out of the way you will be able to see the movement, break over and way of going so much more easily.


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## flying_high (15 July 2019)

ihatework said:



			I think your understanding is a bit limited.

Bone scans use a radioactive tracer that identifies areas of bone turnover. They donâ€™t detect heat, but on the scans any active areas are called hotspots so can understand your confusion. They are not a scan that can diagnose soft tissue damage, they are for bone. You really get a very limited â€˜imageâ€™. That said if you have a hotspot it can sometimes direct you to image surrounding soft tissue using different diagnostics - eg high suspensories at point of insertion can sometimes show some localised bone turnover.
		
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Sorry think I abbreviated badly. Iâ€™m aware bone scan mainly shows you were to look further. But my understanding is whilst wonâ€™t show you anything specific re soft tissue injury would normally show increased uptake in the surrounding area, giving you and indication there is something there. Particularly if uptake isnâ€™t symmetrical left to right.

I thought typically you bone scan if donâ€™t know where issue is and canâ€™t narrow it down to ultrasound scan / X-ray / MRI usefully. And use bone scan to direct where go next.


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## Leo Walker (15 July 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			Very best of luck.  A practical tip from me, as i would never have a guess at what is ailing him, leave that to the experts and their machines.  Take the feathers off him, present him to the vets clean legged and cut his tail level with the hocks.  With the feather and hair out of the way you will be able to see the movement, break over and way of going so much more easily.
		
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You can just plait the bottom of the tail and fold it up out of the way if you dont want to cut it.


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## Trouper (16 July 2019)

I'm glad you have decided on a course of action and here's hoping for some answers.  I have just spotted Tom Beech's post of 12 July on his FB page explaining how getting to the bottom of what ails horses is often not quick or a question of something having recently developed.   It is well worth a read to understand how he and others like him look at cases - just don't get depressed about your boy!!  I am sure the answer is out there.


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## Annagain (16 July 2019)

Best of luck HK - really hope it's something fixable.


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## ponyparty (16 July 2019)

I've been following since you started posting about your horse, HK. Just wanted to say I think you're doing the right thing getting him fully checked out. As always lots of good advice given here. I'll be crossing my fingers that it's something that can be sorted. Best of luck x


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## Horsekaren (16 July 2019)

Just after a little bit more guidence, I am based in Essex so not a millions miles away from many places, I spoke to my vet and asked if I could have him reffered to rossdales, it was suggested that he would be better off going to Bell equine in Kent. I had to push a bit to get him referred. 
Does anyone know much about Bell equine? 
Can I override this decision? I just want him at the best place with all the equipment and knowledgable vets. 

I donâ€™t know if Iâ€™m being a push over, mriâ€™s were mentioned but Iâ€™m not sure if this will be a side track off of the big issue which is everything, not just hocks


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## Auslander (16 July 2019)

I'm quite surprised, although I don't know Bell. Rossdales is where my vet (who has serious dressage horses) chooses to send hers, so that's more than good enough for me!


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## ihatework (16 July 2019)

Thatâ€™s quite weird - you have 2 big Newmarket vets just up the road. Any reason given for Bell (not that I know them) - Iâ€™ve taken horses halfway across the country for Rossdales. You completely have the right to choose your own vets. It sounds like your vets are haemorrhaging your insurance money. And wtf are they planning on MRIâ€™ing?


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## Slightlyconfused (16 July 2019)

You can chose where to send your horse.

Ask for a reason for going to Bell, sometimes it's as simple as they have always done it.


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## Horsekaren (16 July 2019)

I had it in my head I wanted him to go there, I donâ€™t want to ignore the hocks but I donâ€™t want them to just be focused on. They said they could come and work him and and scan his neck ect but I said no I need him in one place where they can find the answer. 

As they have started the investigations can I just say I want him to go there and thatâ€™s that.


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## TPO (16 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			I had it in my head I wanted him to go there, I donâ€™t want to ignore the hocks but I donâ€™t want them to just be focused on. They said they could come and work him and and scan his neck ect but I said no I need him in one place where they can find the answer.

As they have started the investigations can I just say I want him to go there and thatâ€™s that.
		
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Yes you can. You can phone your vet and ask for a referral specifically to Rossdales. You dont need to explain yourself any further; you've already said that you want a full work up, including ridden, in one place


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## cobgoblin (16 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			I had it in my head I wanted him to go there, I donâ€™t want to ignore the hocks but I donâ€™t want them to just be focused on. They said they could come and work him and and scan his neck ect but I said no I need him in one place where they can find the answer.

As they have started the investigations can I just say I want him to go there and thatâ€™s that.
		
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You are the customer and the one paying the bills, so of course you can dictate where your horse goes.


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## milliepops (16 July 2019)

TPO said:



			Yes you can. You can phone your vet and ask for a referral specifically to Rossdales. You dont need to explain yourself any further; you've already said that you want a full work up, including ridden, in one place
		
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This.
It's not like human NHS healthcare, you're paying the bills so you can decide who and where you want to look at him.


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## charterline (16 July 2019)

I've had a horse in Bell Equine before. It was only a scope for ulcers, however I'd not used them before, and was working away from home, so had to co-ordinate everything from hundreds of miles away.

I was impressed at the service they gave, very helpful and professional


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## Horsekaren (16 July 2019)

charterline said:



			I've had a horse in Bell Equine before. It was only a scope for ulcers, however I'd not used them before, and was working away from home, so had to co-ordinate everything from hundreds of miles away.

I was impressed at the service they gave, very helpful and professional
		
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Itâ€™s not that I donâ€™t think they are good, I know nothing about them but where he is showing soooo many things I want a place that will have seen it all.


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## Sussexbythesea (16 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			Just after a little bit more guidence, I am based in Essex so not a millions miles away from many places, I spoke to my vet and asked if I could have him reffered to rossdales, it was suggested that he would be better off going to Bell equine in Kent. I had to push a bit to get him referred.
Does anyone know much about Bell equine?
Can I override this decision? I just want him at the best place with all the equipment and knowledgable vets.

I donâ€™t know if Iâ€™m being a push over, mriâ€™s were mentioned but Iâ€™m not sure if this will be a side track off of the big issue which is everything, not just hocks 

Click to expand...

 Bell have a good reputation but when I lived in Kent my vets were Bell and I actually had mine referred to the AHT in Newmarket for a second opinion as Sue Dyson is one of the top respected orthopaedic specialists. I felt her expertise would give me a definitive answer. Subsequently living in Sussex I got referred to the AHT again when I felt my local vets didnâ€™t take me seriously when I suspected a SI injury. I didnâ€™t want to pay twice and waste insurance so I bypassed them. Again I felt I got a definitive answer and advice on treatment and therapies for my now still rideable 24yr old. Sadly Iâ€™ve just read that sheâ€™s retired but I expect theyâ€™ve employed someone of her calibre to replace her. 

Itâ€™s worth looking into the CV of actual vet that would be leading any investigation as opposed to the practice itself.


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## milliepops (16 July 2019)

Sussexbythesea said:



			Itâ€™s worth looking into the CV of actual vet that would be leading any investigation as opposed to the practice itself.
		
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agreed, I am registered direct with a referral practice but I still know who would be their specialist for various things and request an appointment with them for anything other than routine stuff.


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## splashgirl45 (16 July 2019)

why on earth would you travel a horse to kent when rossdales are up the road in  newmarket.  i would want my horse as close to home as possible as long as the vet hospital was excellent, which as far as i know rossdales is.   stand your ground if you dont want him to go to bell equine....i am finding your vet a bit odd in his outlook from what you have said...


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## HobleytheTB (16 July 2019)

Might it be that there's a specific vet at Bell that your vet had in mind to do the investigations? If not it seems pointless to travel further if you're happy to go with Rossdales!


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## tristar (16 July 2019)

your horse, your money, you do the sayin and the payin,  and if you feel something has already happened to him when he was away before why risk a longer journey, 

unless another vet is proved to you to be as good


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## JFTDWS (16 July 2019)

To be fair, Bell Equine may be closer than Rossdales to the OP.

I'd still go to Rossdales, tbh.


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## rara007 (16 July 2019)

Bell is closer than Rossdales I think? Im in Essex and closer to Bell than Newmarket. Bell has almost all the facilities of rossdales (MRI, CT, European and American specialist both medics and surgeons) and less of a racehorse bias too. Iâ€™d trust your vets advice, they have experience of more centres than us lot with experience of the odd case here or there. If youâ€™ve set your heart on rossdales get it changed (and ask why they donâ€™t usually use there!), but I do think the vets will know whoâ€™s best for what sort of case!


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## Lois Lame (17 July 2019)

Maybe Horsekaren's vet has a vet-friend at Bell's. 

I don't know any of these places (I'm on the other side of the globe) but I think I'd be wanting Rossdales due to what many have written here.


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## TwyfordM (17 July 2019)

quizzie said:



			I would be very suspicious of neck involvement...a change in head/neck position caused a significant gait change in that video.

Was the neck X-rayed, and if so was it a specialist equine practice ....as neck x-rays can be difficult to interpret, and positioning is critical.
		
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This, pony is now retired but we went backwards and forwards. Neurological, feet, back, stifle etc. Had neck xrayed and eventually when they did an xray from a very bizarre angle found a suspect vertebrae that was misshapen, bits chipped off etc. Never quite nailed down what it was but after a year she's still not right but comfortable enough to gallop around the field like a loon.
Horse in video looks pretty similar to my mare

Also this was at Bell equine so they will do their best to find problem i can vouch for that!


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## Horsekaren (17 July 2019)

Ok, so a good review for bell goes a long way  
Iâ€™ve checked and they do seem to have the facilities , ie bone scan ect.  Perhaps a smaller practice might be as good as rossdales. My vet has agreed he doesnâ€™t look right behind ( he doesnâ€™t always do this so during the work up before he obviously didnâ€™t show this but the new videos are so clear thank goodness! ) 

Having slept on it, I think Iâ€™m happy with sending him to bell, they have all the facilities and the comment above re a similar horse helps. I want him ridden so they can see it with their own eyes and a better rider can explain when he reacts and feel what he can and canâ€™t do.


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## splashgirl45 (17 July 2019)

good luck


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## twiggy2 (17 July 2019)

Just wanted to say good luck op, hope you get a good outcome.


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## ihatework (17 July 2019)

Good luck!
In retrospect maybe your vet feels Rossdales/AHT are so elite focused that you might get better support at Bell?

I hope you get the answers you are seeking, but would just add a word of warning not to take that for granted, sometimes even after spending Â£Â£Â£Â£ the answers arenâ€™t clear cut


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## milliepops (17 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			Ok, so a good review for bell goes a long way 
Iâ€™ve checked and they do seem to have the facilities , ie bone scan ect.  Perhaps a smaller practice might be as good as rossdales. My vet has agreed he doesnâ€™t look right behind ( he doesnâ€™t always do this so during the work up before he obviously didnâ€™t show this but the new videos are so clear thank goodness! )

Having slept on it, I think Iâ€™m happy with sending him to bell, they have all the facilities and the comment above re a similar horse helps. I want him ridden so they can see it with their own eyes and a better rider can explain when he reacts and feel what he can and canâ€™t do.
		
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glad you are feeling more positive about it. Don't be afraid to speak up and explain all the various pieces of the puzzle, they are there to help you and your horse... they will be working for you both, you can make the decisions   I think sometimes people end up a bit like rabbits in the headlights especially with what seems like a complex set of issues,  but really you're in charge of all this so don't feel like you can't ask questions or clarify things if they've got the wrong end of the stick from your vet etc.


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## Zero00000 (17 July 2019)

I can also vouch for Bell Equine, they have always been my vets, they have fantastic facilities and really listen to their clients wants and needs.

Here is their website if you would like to take a look

http://www.bellequine.co.uk/the-practice/tour-the-clinic


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## tristar (17 July 2019)

get a note book and start to write down all the symptoms, then write down all the many questions about the symptoms and then questions about treatment options, management options etc before you go as they come into your mind before you go

and try not to worry too much because you just dont know yet, and good luck


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## Hormonal Filly (17 July 2019)

tristar said:



			get a note book and start to write down all the symptoms, then write down all the many questions about the symptoms and then questions about treatment options, management options etc before you go as they come into your mind before you go
		
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Great advice, when my gelding had a lameness work up I was so nervous I forgot to mention half his symptoms and ridden issues which didn't help! On the second time, I made a note on my phone and wrote down everything often adding daily when I noticed something as well as any questions I wanted to ask.. making sure I mentioned them all to the specialist. This helped hugely and was what lured them to his issues. 
I get so nervous I forget half of what I want to say, specially when the horses are concerned. 

Good luck. Sounds like hes going to the best place.


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## SEL (17 July 2019)

ihatework said:



			Good luck!
In retrospect maybe your vet feels Rossdales/AHT are so elite focused that you might get better support at Bell?
		
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Sadly that's a good point - my OH is convinced we would have had better vet engagement with my mare if she'd been a competition type horse rather than a chunky, odd coloured leisure horse.


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## Pinkvboots (17 July 2019)

I wish you luck and I really hope you get some answers you really have done your up most for him, I will look forward to hear what they find and will keep my fingers crossed for a happy outcome for you both.


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## Berpisc (17 July 2019)

Good luck, I hope you can get a definitive answer HK


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## tristar (17 July 2019)

ForbiddenHorse said:



			Great advice, when my gelding had a lameness work up I was so nervous I forgot to mention half his symptoms and ridden issues which didn't help! On the second time, I made a note on my phone and wrote down everything often adding daily when I noticed something as well as any questions I wanted to ask.. making sure I mentioned them all to the specialist. This helped hugely and was what lured them to his issues. 
I get so nervous I forget half of what I want to say, specially when the horses are concerned. 

Good luck. Sounds like hes going to the best place.
		
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the emotional anticipation can be overwhelming to the nerves,     dont forget the videos too


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## ester (17 July 2019)

ihatework said:



			Good luck!
In retrospect maybe your vet feels Rossdales/AHT are so elite focused that you might get better support at Bell?

I hope you get the answers you are seeking, but would just add a word of warning not to take that for granted, sometimes even after spending Â£Â£Â£Â£ the answers arenâ€™t clear cut
		
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That was my concern in a previous post re. making sure that although he isn't a sports horse you do want if worked up fully. That came from the experience of others with Rossdales.


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## Leo Walker (17 July 2019)

milliepops said:



			glad you are feeling more positive about it. Don't be afraid to speak up and explain all the various pieces of the puzzle, they are there to help you and your horse... they will be working for you both, you can make the decisions   I think sometimes people end up a bit like rabbits in the headlights especially with what seems like a complex set of issues,  but really you're in charge of all this so don't feel like you can't ask questions or clarify things if they've got the wrong end of the stick from your vet etc.
		
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tristar said:



			get a note book and start to write down all the symptoms, then write down all the many questions about the symptoms and then questions about treatment options, management options etc before you go as they come into your mind before you go

and try not to worry too much because you just dont know yet, and good luck
		
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Definitely this! And good luck. I've got everything crossed for you and him!


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## J&S (17 July 2019)

I would be very sad to think that larger equine practices did not give the same attention to "leisure" horses as to expensive sports horses .  I certainly found that when I took my 14.3hh coloured PC/RC/Trec pony to  a large equine practice near Exeter she was treated with the utmost care and respect, I could not have asked for more.  I actually remarked to friends afterwards that has she been a top class race horse she would not have got better treatment.  I do hope you have a good experience with who ever you choose to go to.


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## Flyermc (17 July 2019)

Good luck

i cant believe how much your horse looks like my old boy


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## Laafet (22 July 2019)

Any news?


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## Horsekaren (22 July 2019)

Laafet said:



			Any news?
		
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He is going into Bell Equine next Tuesday for a work up and possible bone scan booked in for Wednesday depending on the findings. 
Interestingly, he had a right hoo haa around the field the other day and was jumping over the bushes at full pelt, he seemed flat behind and unable to really throw his hind legs up as you would expect when having a hooley (not that he has ever jumped more than 50cm but was interesting to see), they just dragged along over the bushes. 
I had his old saddle refitted on the weekend (by an alternative saddler recommended by chiro) he has gone up two gullet sizes in the last 6 weeks, he went up another gullet size 6 weeks ago so that W to XXW in the last 10 weeks since the muscles in spasm were treated with acupuncture.

Hopefully we get some answers  It will be nice to just hand him over rather than keep going back and forth to my vet.


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## starfish8 (22 July 2019)

I'm in two minds whether to write this or not as I can see you're having a really tough time already and really don't want to add to it - but do you know which of the vets at Bell is doing your workup?  There are some very good vets there but also some that I wouldn't use for a lameness workup at all.


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## TwyfordM (22 July 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			He is going into Bell Equine next Tuesday for a work up and possible bone scan booked in for Wednesday depending on the findings.
Interestingly, he had a right hoo haa around the field the other day and was jumping over the bushes at full pelt, he seemed flat behind and unable to really throw his hind legs up as you would expect when having a hooley (not that he has ever jumped more than 50cm but was interesting to see), they just dragged along over the bushes.
I had his old saddle refitted on the weekend (by an alternative saddler recommended by chiro) he has gone up two gullet sizes in the last 6 weeks, he went up another gullet size 6 weeks ago so that W to XXW in the last 10 weeks since the muscles in spasm were treated with acupuncture.

Hopefully we get some answers  It will be nice to just hand him over rather than keep going back and forth to my vet.
		
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Let us know how you get on. Been wondering how you're doing


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## Irishdraughtx (22 July 2019)

starfish8 said:



			I'm in two minds whether to write this or not as I can see you're having a really tough time already and really don't want to add to it - but do you know which of the vets at Bell is doing your workup?  There are some very good vets there but also some that I wouldn't use for a lameness workup at all.
		
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Iâ€™ve pmâ€™d you as Iâ€™m currently going through lameness investigations with my horse there.


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## BMWKIPP (22 July 2019)

RVC where absolutely brilliant with my little chunky beast recently. So I know that at least they and Rossdales who have just fixed s friends horse with eyesight issues, do indeed treat non comp horses just as magnificently as they do top comp horses.


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## Horsekaren (23 July 2019)

Arghghghghhh 
Couldnt bounce over a bush but has just jumped a 5ft plus metal yard gate during a spook explosion. 
Gave him a lovely bath, he was lovely and chilled. 20 joggers ran by, horses in the field next door bolted , he got in a right tiz and jumped out of the yard and proceeded to gallop around. 

Please tell me someone elseâ€™s horses do this? Itâ€™s not even rudeness is utter panic and flight mode  

No doubt thatâ€™s going to of injured him. I know he can bounce over a stable door but a massive metal gate!!! Really!?!?!!!!


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## tristar (23 July 2019)

horses!!!!!!!!!!


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## Leo Walker (23 July 2019)

Leo regularly jumped 5 bar gates lame or sound so I wouldnt worry too much!


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## DabDab (23 July 2019)

Well if he's as sleep deprived as he seems from that video you posted up thread I'd not be surprised by him having the odd random overreaction to a strange stimuli - I know I do when I'm sleep deprived.


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## Horsekaren (24 July 2019)

Leo- that makes me feel better  

He has always been a quiet type that literally explodes,  never put it down to sleep deprivation but thatâ€™s a good shout!


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## SEL (24 July 2019)

HK - my mare who has supposedly got quite severe SI issues did an impressive display of walking on her back legs the other day. This was followed by a rodeo act then some more leaping.

I had my cross face in with lots of "don't you dare damage that suspensory again" but she pulled up looking very happy with herself and surprisingly sound!


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## Tarragon (25 July 2019)

I have been away on holiday so I have only just caught up with it all. I just wanted to say well done for getting the referral organised and I really hope that you get some answers; even just knowing what the underlying problem is will  be a step forward and be a help. I am thinking of you


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## ponies4ever (25 July 2019)

Iâ€™m another who can recommend bell as mine has done two stays up there this year. Facilities are excellent and staff were all great


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## LaurenBay (29 July 2019)

HK I am glad you are sending him for full investigations. I hope you get the answers you are looking for.

Well done for listening to him HK, he is a lucky boy to have you.


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## Horsekaren (29 July 2019)

Well, tomorrow is the day 
Wish him well *crosses fingers* 
Will keep you posted  

Any positive Strawberry vibes appreciated xx


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## Amymay (29 July 2019)

++++++ vibes for tomorrow xxx


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## Chinchilla (29 July 2019)

Been thinking of your boy HK - really hope all goes well for you and you get to the bottom of what's bothering him, I think he's stunning x


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## ycbm (29 July 2019)

Masses of strawberry vibes for tomorrow from here.


.


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## Leo Walker (29 July 2019)

Good luck Strawberry. Everything crossed for something quick and easy to fix!


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## ester (29 July 2019)

Good luck both of you for  tomorrow


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## Equi (29 July 2019)

Loads of vibes! Look at that face...ooooffffffff handsome


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## LaurenBobby (29 July 2019)

Fingers crossed for you x


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## SEL (29 July 2019)

Good luck - hope you get to the bottom of what's up with him. Lots of happy, healthy pony vibes here xx


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## Zero00000 (29 July 2019)

Good luck for tomorrow


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## GoldenWillow (30 July 2019)

Good luck for both of you tomorrow.


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## LaurenBay (30 July 2019)

good luck Strawberry (love the name!)


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## tristar (30 July 2019)

bless you strawb


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## Hormonal Filly (30 July 2019)

Good luck Strawberry! I'm sure they'll treat you very well there - you get your own servants and everything!


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## Tarragon (30 July 2019)

More good wishes for Strawberry coming your way!


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## Pinkvboots (30 July 2019)

Good luck x


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## Horsekaren (30 July 2019)

Well to my surprise he is already home.
Trotted up sound
Flexion tests fine
Lunged sound 
Did the thing on the long reins but canâ€™t home in on it as itâ€™s intermittent, canâ€™t determine if it is pain or confusion. 
Went from being too dangerous to ride to having a blast on the lunge and then rode lovely by the nurse ( not easy but no signs of pain), trying to throw his shoulder out etc, napping at the gate, the odd buck in canter, the tranter gate, I then got on and he instantly didnâ€™t want to go left anymore and was locking, tanked a few times but very different to when the nurse rode him, this might be my inexperience yet again  


Bone scan was written off for now as he isnâ€™t showing enough to know 100% it is pain, it will wipe out my insurance and at present they just donâ€™t know. The only time he showed the sign was on the long lines going left, he didnâ€™t do it under saddle so something had improved... possibly the hock issue. 

We know there is an issue in the hocks, but vet said they looked fine! we have come away with a bute trial and instructed to keep a diary.

The sleep thing was looked at and it is  has been suggested it is a recumbent sleeping disorder ( fairly common) obviously if he starts laying down in the bute trail then this could be pain. The video is being sent around a few experts.

He was a little short but the more forward he went the less short he became. 

Vets were lovely and I appreciated not being pushed into things when itâ€™s all a bit confusing. Going to bring his dentist appointment forward just to check that all ok.

He actually went fantastic, he had a spring in his step being somewhere new, they all said he is a very smart moving boy when he wants to be. Itâ€™s so frustrating for me and them, if you canâ€™t see a horse is lame what can you go on, nerve blocking would have been pointless because there was again nothing to home in on, he didnâ€™t have a tell to nerve block, it would have been utterly pointless 

So... the saga continues! 


Has anyone done a bute trail? If there is pain anywhere is Bute strong enough for him to no longer feel the pain ?


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## milliepops (30 July 2019)

No bute isn't that strong if there is really severe pain. how much have you got to give him?

I appreciate you must be feeling quite frustrated at the moment but all credit to you for investigating, and it must feel like an impossible position to be in when you have people telling you on here that he is lame, yet the vets don't really find much. It's obvious you're doing your absolute best.

Did the vets tell you to just crack on while on the bute trial? If so, don't feel bad about that.  sometimes it's helpful when you have something so inconclusive like this, to carry on until either it resolves itself or becomes more obvious so you aren't on a wild goose chase any more.


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## tristar (30 July 2019)

where there is life there is hope

better than coming back with  some devastating diagnoses

i would be happy with that for the moment


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## Pippity (30 July 2019)

My mare is on a bute trial atm. (Near hind stifle isn't locking as it should, and trying to determine whether it's pain, conformation or muscle weakness.) My vet has said the same as yours - she isn't lame enough for a nerve block to be any use, so it's difficult to diagnose. It also doesn't help that she's very stoic about pain.

In her case, there's been a very subtle difference on the bute, but I'm not sure whether that's the painkiller or because I've been far more consistent about working her, so she's building up muscle that helps with the issue.

She's on the bute until the end of the week, and my instructions have been to keep working her the same once she's off it, to see if there's deterioration or continued improvement. I'm also getting fortnightly visits from my physio, who's the one who first identified the problem.


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## Michen (30 July 2019)

If I were you OP Iâ€™d get off the forum, get him into some decent level of work and see what happens. Itâ€™ll go one of two ways, either he will push through and improve or he will break enough for the vets to see something. 

Sorry bit blunt and not how everyone would like to do it but youâ€™ve done everything you can. Iâ€™d get him as fit as you can and see where your at.


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## SEL (30 July 2019)

I've also done a bute trial - frustratingly it made no difference.

If you are worried about whether your riding is influencing his way of going I can highly recommend some biomechanics lessons. I'm going to a teacher who trained with Mary Wanless and for the first time in 40 odd years I know why my left leg flaps!


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## Laafet (30 July 2019)

If you are doing a bute trial, you must be prepared to work him, not just give him an easy time, otherwise you won't be able to see if it has worked or no. I recently did one for mine, it didn't stop his front limb lameness but it did cure his hind limb lameness which backed up that the back leg was suffering as there was problem in front which was bilateral so I hadn't picked it up. He never actually looked consistently lame and competed and won two Elementary tests (before I started the bute trial) but he felt wrong to me. We injected his front feet and the back leg came sound on its own.

It is a tough one but quite telling the query over the long reins, is he confused or having an issue and that he went well for the vet nurse. It's easy to think there is something wrong with our horses when they are fine. I am very guilty of that. I'd look at getting him a lot fitter while on the bute trial and maintaining it afterwards.


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## LaurenBay (30 July 2019)

I'd be inclined to bring him back into full work and see what you have in a months time.

I'd hack and lunge, do you have an experienced friend who could help out with schooling him? 

Make a note of EVERYTHING that doesn't seem quite right.


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## tristar (30 July 2019)

Michen said:



			If I were you OP Iâ€™d get off the forum, get him into some decent level of work and see what happens. Itâ€™ll go one of two ways, either he will push through and improve or he will break enough for the vets to see something. 

Sorry bit blunt and not how everyone would like to do it but youâ€™ve done everything you can. Iâ€™d get him as fit as you can and see where your at.[/QUOT


that would be my plan, with the proviso i would not break him, i would use the upwards trajectory of improving fitness and tolerance of  extra work to mend him,  

and would concentrate my whole efforts on riding classically, riding and training for the benefit  and improvement of the horse, riding with a light seat and leaving front end to sort itself out by allowing the horse to truly work through its whole body and re align itself become very straight and then see where you are
		
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## Nudibranch (30 July 2019)

When we had trouble with a definitive diagnosis, I put mine in medium work and it was enough to show a more consistent lameness. However I avoided school work and stuck to hacking across varied terrain at w/t/c, i. e. fitness building. It made him uncomfortable enough to buck in canter, and his hind end went from under him twice. At that point we called it a day.

A bute trial had been inconclusive and we had already had some inconclusive neck and hock x rays at that point.

In your shoes I would either do that, or pay a pro to work him for you as it is very possible for a rider to cause lameness issues, especially where there is an underlying problem. I really would forget all about an outline, gadgets, etc, etc and treat him like a newly backed youngster; find his own balance and rhythm without interference as I suspect that hasn't been happening for him. Preferably with someone experienced to do it for you while you have lessons on a range of other horses to build your own confidence, feel and timing.


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## TPO (30 July 2019)

Well overall that's good news. The vets have said that you have a sound horse, hocks aside which are under vet attention already, and if there was something severe they would have found it.

Yes there might be something underlying but that can be said of every horse. If you look hard enough you *will* find something with *every *horse.

I hope that you can take some comfort from today. You are not missing something obvious and the treatment to his hocks is making a difference. Your vet and now a vet hospital/fresh pair of eyes have been all over him and can't find anything. 

You are already a very caring and vigilant owner, what you don't know you ask about. As much as this forum can be a helpful resource that taps into years of experience and knowledge I'd be wary of muddying the waters. Previous posts have all but written poor StrawB off and here is a fully qualified, experienced hospital vet telling you he's sound. Like the old saying going if you ask 5 equestrians a question you'll get 7 opinions in reply!

Like someone else had said carry on in line with vet's instructions and within any plan that vet and/or vet physio have given you. In the simplest of terms he will either continue to improve or any issues (eg what happened on the long lines) will become more obvious and then there will be something to investigate. So crack on! Enjoy your horse, you've made a huge improvement in a really short space of time. You've addressed vet issues, have a physio, saddle been checked and dental being scheduled; I honestly don't know what else you could do to ensure his comfort. 

Please don't beat yourself up about your riding; everyone has scope for improvement. That's the "fun" part allegedly! ha ha I've only been aware of your posts for around 4mths and I've noticed a big difference in the short space of time. Hopefully now that Strawberry has been given the OK by the vet hospital you can continue on that tangent.

I look forward to your next update


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## tristar (30 July 2019)

TPO said:



			Well overall that's good news. The vets have said that you have a sound horse, hocks aside which are under vet attention already, and if there was something severe they would have found it.

Yes there might be something underlying but that can be said of every horse. If you look hard enough you *will* find something with *every *horse.

I hope that you can take some comfort from today. You are not missing something obvious and the treatment to his hocks is making a difference. Your vet and now a vet hospital/fresh pair of eyes have been all over him and can't find anything. 

You are already a very caring and vigilant owner, what you don't know you ask about. As much as this forum can be a helpful resource that taps into years of experience and knowledge I'd be wary of muddying the waters. Previous posts have all but written poor StrawB off and here is a fully qualified, experienced hospital vet telling you he's sound. Like the old saying going if you ask 5 equestrians a question you'll get 7 opinions in reply!

Like someone else had said carry on in line with vet's instructions and within any plan that vet and/or vet physio have given you. In the simplest of terms he will either continue to improve or any issues (eg what happened on the long lines) will become more obvious and then there will be something to investigate. So crack on! Enjoy your horse, you've made a huge improvement in a really short space of time. You've addressed vet issues, have a physio, saddle been checked and dental being scheduled; I honestly don't know what else you could do to ensure his comfort. 

Please don't beat yourself up about your riding; everyone has scope for improvement. That's the "fun" part allegedly! ha ha I've only been aware of your posts for around 4mths and I've noticed a big difference in the short space of time. Hopefully now that Strawberry has been given the OK by the vet hospital you can continue on that tangent.

I look forward to your next update 

Click to expand...


but thats it don`t beat yourself up about your riding, as long a you ride considerately you will do him no harm and in time the improvements will come, that the way it works in my experience


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## Leo Walker (30 July 2019)

tristar said:



			but thats it don`t beat yourself up about your riding, as long a you ride considerately you will do him no harm and in time the improvements will come, that the way it works in my experience
		
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This. You are not an appalling rider so dont blame yourself. You said he was naughty for the vet nurse as well, so clearly its not just you! I would be very tempted to find someone sympathetic but firm and send him off for a month. Have them work him twice a day, hacking and schooling and see if that fixes the issue or breaks him enough to see it clearly. 

It has the added benefit that he will come back educated and it is much, much easier to ride an educated horse than a green one, so it will help you improve as well.


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## Peter7917 (30 July 2019)

Michen said:



			If I were you OP Iâ€™d get off the forum, get him into some decent level of work and see what happens. Itâ€™ll go one of two ways, either he will push through and improve or he will break enough for the vets to see something.

Sorry bit blunt and not how everyone would like to do it but youâ€™ve done everything you can. Iâ€™d get him as fit as you can and see where your at.
		
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This 100%. My horse when unfit looks lame. He does this skipping thing, its hard to describe, but he appears lame. Give him a few weeks of work and hes sound as a pound and the skipping completely disappears. Sometimes I think with lack of fitness, if there is a weakness there then it will display itself because exercise is harder when you're unfit. Get fitter and you strengthen up that weakness.


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## SEL (30 July 2019)

Peter7917 said:



			This 100%. My horse when unfit looks lame. He does this skipping thing, its hard to describe, but he appears lame. Give him a few weeks of work and hes sound as a pound and the skipping completely disappears. Sometimes I think with lack of fitness, if there is a weakness there then it will display itself because exercise is harder when you're unfit. Get fitter and you strengthen up that weakness.
		
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On vet instructions mine has now been off ridden work for 7 months and I really don't think it's done her any favours - muscle tone shocking and it's not like she's looking any better in her action.

So I would tend to agree in HK's case to get Strawberry working and fit and see what you and up with. Good luck!


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## palo1 (30 July 2019)

Michen said:



			If I were you OP Iâ€™d get off the forum, get him into some decent level of work and see what happens. Itâ€™ll go one of two ways, either he will push through and improve or he will break enough for the vets to see something.

Sorry bit blunt and not how everyone would like to do it but youâ€™ve done everything you can. Iâ€™d get him as fit as you can and see where your at.
		
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I think this is good advice: check that your vet feels that getting him back into work is ok then find or continue with a really good instructor to get your horse working properly and reasonably hard: if he is ok then he will get better, fitter and more muscled which will help.  It may also help if there is a genuine behavioural element to the problem.   You will have a goal this way: to work him and you may find out if/what the problem is.  If the vet nurse riding him got a good tune out of him, you may just need a different sort of riding approach and an instructor will help you find the best way forward.


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## ester (30 July 2019)

I was wondering the same as Leo


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## ycbm (30 July 2019)

I'm sorry you didn't get anything conclusive. 

Hopefully, getting him fit will show that's all he needs (assuming the hocks are sorted). And if not, then increasing his workload should at least give your team a better idea where to look.

Do you have some hills?  I recommend a lot of hill work. It's great both for strengthening and for exposing lameness. It's very difficult for a horse to hide lameness or keep it subclinical if it lives and is ridden on twenty percent hills like I'm lucky enough to be on. 

Please don't beat yourself up, you are a great owner, very caring, and your riding has improved hugely because you were brave enough to post video and ask for advice. If it would make you feel any better, I can show you video of my  riding making a sound cob hop as I mistakenly block him with my hands. None of us is perfect. 


.


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## Pinkvboots (30 July 2019)

Michen said:



			If I were you OP Iâ€™d get off the forum, get him into some decent level of work and see what happens. Itâ€™ll go one of two ways, either he will push through and improve or he will break enough for the vets to see something.

Sorry bit blunt and not how everyone would like to do it but youâ€™ve done everything you can. Iâ€™d get him as fit as you can and see where your at.
		
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This is what I would do work work and more work.


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## PaintPonies (30 July 2019)

New to the forum but have read through your post. Can only agree with others to say that you are doing all you can. The only thing I would add is that as well as keeping a diary also keep videoing. Probably don't need to video every session but maybe go through a set routine once a week and video it. It's so easy to miss the subtleties of improvement, or deterioration, if you are seeing it every day. Good luck, I hope he goes from strength to strength


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## Slightlyconfused (31 July 2019)

Leo Walker said:



			This. You are not an appalling rider so dont blame yourself. You said he was naughty for the vet nurse as well, so clearly its not just you! I would be very tempted to find someone sympathetic but firm and send him off for a month. Have them work him twice a day, hacking and schooling and see if that fixes the issue or breaks him enough to see it clearly.

It has the added benefit that he will come back educated and it is much, much easier to ride an educated horse than a green one, so it will help you improve as well.
		
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This is what I would do. 

Send him somewhere who doesn't have the emotional connection you have and can just work him and then see what happens.


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## Horse2018 (31 July 2019)

Have you ever thought he could be fake it for you to get out of work. My friends horse fake Being lame . If the vet says he sound I say there correct and there probably isnâ€™t any issues. I say he is just be a brat and nows he can get away with it .


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## TPO (31 July 2019)

Horse2018 said:



			Have you ever thought he could be fake it for you to get out of work. My friends horse fake Being lame . If the vet says he sound I say there correct and there probably isnâ€™t any issues. I say he is just be a brat and nows he can get away with it .
		
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I'll bite...

Horses do not "fake" lameness; that is not how their brains are wired. Nor do they act like "brats"; they are a product of their environment, training and may display "bad" behaviour due to pain.


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## Nudibranch (31 July 2019)

Horse2018 said:



			Have you ever thought he could be fake it for you to get out of work. My friends horse fake Being lame . If the vet says he sound I say there correct and there probably isnâ€™t any issues. I say he is just be a brat and nows he can get away with it .
		
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Ok.....


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## eggs (31 July 2019)

One of my horses didn't feel 'right' (felt like you were riding a bicycle with a flat tyre) although he looked sound so we put him on a bute trial and worked him consistently over a week or two.  It was very apparent that something was wrong as he felt so much better on the bute trial.  A fair bit of investigation later and he was found to have a bone chip in his front fetlock which was removed and we haven't looked back since.

OP  you are a very thoughtful owner and are doing your absolute best for Strawberry.  Some of the videos you posted before showed huge improvements in both your riding and his way of going.  I would be tempted to continue with the bute trial but have a more experienced rider work him whilst you video it to see if there is any difference.


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## Slightlyconfused (31 July 2019)

TPO said:



			I'll bite...

Horses do not "fake" lameness; that is not how their brains are wired. Nor do they act like "brats"; they are a product of their environment, training and may display "bad" behaviour due to pain.
		
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Normally I would agree with this but...... We had a pony that learnt to go "lame" when we first had him as he knew we would get off him and take his tack off.

 We were very novicey at the time so the yard owner put one of the girls on him not telling her what had been going on and he was completely sound and happy to do anything she asked. We got back on and lame pony againðŸ™„ so it was decided he had learnt to hop as it meant tack came off. 
We had to get tough pretty quick and he never had another day's lameness until he was retired at 20. 

So no I don't think they can lie or be a brat on purpose but I do think they can learn a behaviour to get an outcome they like. Just like any human or animal can.


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## Chuffy99 (31 July 2019)

Yep used to be a fab lead rein pony round here some years ago that was sound hacking and having fun at home but as soon as it got to the show ground went lame, trouble was they couldnâ€™t work it through it in the ring so they retired him and he did PC and hunted for years.
Agree with lots of the above HK think you need to get him fit and that involves lots of work, real long hacking with him walking out and as much hill work as you can but acknowledge Essex isnâ€™t renowned for hills, trotting on suitable surfaces, hopefully you can find some company as I seem to remember youâ€™re not a confident hacker


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## ycbm (31 July 2019)

TPO said:



			I'll bite...

Horses do not "fake" lameness; that is not how their brains are wired. Nor do they act like "brats"; they are a product of their environment, training and may display "bad" behaviour due to pain.
		
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I completely agree that they don't fake lameness but they can do some very odd things. I had a horse once I was doing a barefoot rehab on who started hobbling on stones when putting himself away in the barn. I got a headcollar and lead on him to trot him up and he was totally sound. I had to lead him over the rough tarmac for quite a while before he agreed he could walk over it just fine all by himself ðŸ˜†


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## Horsekaren (1 August 2019)

Thats the plan, i am going to bring him back into harder work and set some sort of baseline. I am then going to start the bute and work him quiet hard. He is being sweet on the ground, i lunged him in the field this morning (15 mins walk 5 mins trot)  and he looked great, started to stretch all be it inconsistently. 


My issue i have is getting on board :'( i feel really nervous about it as i know i'm going to have a battle on my hands as he is going to rush off, break into canter and run at the fence before dragging me back onto the right rein. I think i am leaning on the left rein, he will go forward and go faster and faster running towards the fence, i then lean on the left rein to turn him and then he will buck and get really pissed off. I feel like my head is in a muddle with my aids. 

For all you better rides out there how would turn a horse that was really resistant to it? Lets term this "turning for dummies"  What aids would you use (really broken down simply) 
Should i really open my left rein? lift the left rein? what do i do with my right rein and my legs? i feel like ive got all uncoordinated and my brain has turned to mush when it comes to bending. Im not after anything pretty i just want to turn him left, if i drop the reins he will still go right. I want to help balance him not pull him around. 


Also if he just wants to tank off and run back to the gate how would you ride that?  

I know i need help! i'm just figuring out where to get this!


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## SEL (1 August 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			Thats the plan, i am going to bring him back into harder work and set some sort of baseline. I am then going to start the bute and work him quiet hard. He is being sweet on the ground, i lunged him in the field this morning (15 mins walk 5 mins trot)  and he looked great, started to stretch all be it inconsistently.


My issue i have is getting on board :'( i feel really nervous about it as i know i'm going to have a battle on my hands as he is going to rush off, break into canter and run at the fence before dragging me back onto the right rein. I think i am leaning on the left rein, he will go forward and go faster and faster running towards the fence, i then lean on the left rein to turn him and then he will buck and get really pissed off. I feel like my head is in a muddle with my aids.

For all you better rides out there how would turn a horse that was really resistant to it? Lets term this "turning for dummies"  What aids would you use (really broken down simply)
Should i really open my left rein? lift the left rein? what do i do with my right rein and my legs? i feel like ive got all uncoordinated and my brain has turned to mush when it comes to bending. Im not after anything pretty i just want to turn him left, if i drop the reins he will still go right. I want to help balance him not pull him around.


Also if he just wants to tank off and run back to the gate how would you ride that? 

I know i need help! i'm just figuring out where to get this!
		
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You've got an instructor I think? I'd get them out and ask them to watch you in the scenario you describe above. What we think we're doing and what we're actually doing can be completely different things as I've had proved to me recently!


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## ester (1 August 2019)

You need good help on the ground, and preferably a bit on top too so they can show him the right way.


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## milliepops (1 August 2019)

ester said:



			You need good help on the ground, and preferably a bit on top too so they can show him the right way.
		
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this, this would be the best time for you to get some expert help in quickly to address this - it will help you in the long term too.

my quick answer would be that to turn left, I use the outside (right) rein as much as the left rein. If you only pull on the left rein, he can kink his neck and body and still run to the right. If you control the outside of the horse with the outside rein and think of turning the whole horse as one unit, then they can't do that.  You need to imagine the 2 reins are like train tracks and the horse goes between them.

It's very weird to start with as completely against your instincts, and if he is not used to being ridden from the outside rein it won't be easy, either.
which is why some really skilled help on the ground, and to teach him too, would be so useful to you.


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## eggs (1 August 2019)

Without actually seeing what is happening or sitting on your horse it isn't really possible to give you too much advice on how to turn.  The best way forward would be to work with a good trainer.


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## ester (1 August 2019)

milliepops said:



			this, this would be the best time for you to get some expert help in quickly to address this - it will help you in the long term too.

my quick answer would be that to turn left, I use the outside (right) rein as much as the left rein. If you only pull on the left rein, he can kink his neck and body and still run to the right. If you control the outside of the horse with the outside rein and think of turning the whole horse as one unit, then they can't do that.  You need to imagine the 2 reins are like train tracks and the horse goes between them.

It's very weird to start with as completely against your instincts, and if he is not used to being ridden from the outside rein it won't be easy, either.
which is why some really skilled help on the ground, and to teach him too, would be so useful to you.
		
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I would like to work on a teleportation device for you


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## Pippity (1 August 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			For all you better rides out there how would turn a horse that was really resistant to it?
		
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Definitely not a better rider, but my experience might help. My horse is really resistant on the left rein, which is what prompted the initial investigation that led to the bute trial.

My instructor taught me the following:
Lift left hand and demi-arrete to get her flexing left at the poll. It's harder for her to lock her neck if she's got that little bit of flexion.
Make sure my hips and shoulders are correctly positioned so I'm not blocking her. I naturally sit with my right side further forward, and it can make it easier for her to evade, especially when I fall into the trap of locking my body and trying to haul her round with brute strength.
If all else fails - keep my schooling whip by her right shoulder, and tap to encourage her to turn.

She's starting to get the idea of turning from the outside rein, but it's taken a good few months. She still has her moments of either locking her neck and walking into the school fence, or just going sideways to avoid turning, but she is improving.

Also - I have her in a full cheek bit. I'm not sure what you have Strawberry in, but it just gives that bit of a push to the turn, and makes sure the bit can't get pulled through.


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## Annagain (1 August 2019)

Again, definitely not a better rider but have some experience of a similar situation. My boy wouldn't turn / bend right and would lock his neck / shoulder. My method probably wasn't very textbook/PC but it worked! I'd get my right leg as far forward as I could and would give him a sharpish kick as close to the shoulder as I could. He'd instinctively move away from it which created a bit of bend, at which point I'd give him lots of praise. He soon learned the bend was what I was asking for an as soon as the bend came, the turning got easier. 

One of the other things that made a huge difference was me learning to ride a lot less with my hands and a lot more with my legs. It's the hardest thing in the world when it feels like he's running away with you but use more leg to move the shoulders and control the outside shoulder with outside hand. If you just pull the rein, it will move his head and neck and cause his shoulder to pop out and the rest of his body will follow the shoulder. 

A good way to practice this is to ride him on the buckle - just in walk and do a 5m circle in each corner and at E&B use your body and legs to steer him. Imagine you're going round a maypole and look at the maypole at all times. Turn your upper body to do this not just your head, but keep your inside leg in front of your outside leg. Your inside leg should push him outwards and your outside leg  - slightly behind the inside - should bring his quarters round, thus creating bend. I start every schooling session with this and don't stop until he's turning nicely from my leg and not trying to run off. We then do the same in trot but with a 15/20m circle (start with 20 and work down to 15 as you progress) at A,C, E and B.


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## Equi (1 August 2019)

I would put lameness out of your head for now - itâ€™s hard but it really holds you back (I know this) 

Start working on strawberry as though he was a new horse and you have issues to fix ridden not physically. Work on the ground and get that mounting sorted.


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## Mahoganybay (1 August 2019)

Hopefully the Bute will give him some relief whilst you work through some issues.

One of the things my mare did (amongst others) that indicated an issue was that she would always fall out through her shoulder on the right rein and spin left. She picked up quite some speed doing it and then would put in a massive buck for good measure. 

With my instructor and following vet treatment/rehab etc I have worked on using my legs more and my hands less. 

So on a right turn on the circle on the right rein, I will ask for slight outside flexion, use my outside leg to turn and really open out my inside hand to show her where I want her to go. I also really look round the circle (almost behind me) and put my inside shoulder back slightly. 

It only took a few sessions and we have nailed it, I know no longer have to open my inside hand so much and can actually give a little with it. 

Oh, and when she did fly off through her left shoulder and spin I was turning her into that spin, my instructor stopped me doing that straight away. I was taught to pull her up sharp to a halt and then use my outside aids and send her right again.


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## Trouper (1 August 2019)

It is so easy to describe what to do and so hard to do it while you are sitting there trying to remember it all, wondering if you are doing it correctly and then wondering if you are going to get an explosion from your horse.  Agree with everyone who has said either to send him away to be worked or to get someone else in to help both you and him - whatever works best for you. Would only add one other suggestion - maybe have a lesson on another horse with the express purpose of sorting out how you are delivering the aids and then, when you are happy, get back on your boy knowing you are doing it correctly and you can concentrate on his reactions and how he is going.  Good luck - you will get there.


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## indie1282 (1 August 2019)

I would avoid the schooling altogether and get him out hacking. It really is the best thing to build up stamina and  will strengthen him much better than school work. 

You need to do lots of hill work and can still do transitions to keep things interesting.


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## Pearlsasinger (1 August 2019)

Certainly get him out of the school and hacking but also concentrate on turning him with your body by turning to look where you want him to go and *your legs*.  As someone else said, ride him on the buckle, so that you forget about turning him with the reins and tell him where to go with your legs.  Hacking is good because you won't often need to do a circle or even a corner/right-angled turn, you can use natural obstacles, such as puddles/parked cars to move him over on tracks/roads.  If you can find a hacking buddy with a calm traffic-proof horse, that will help you both relax, which will also help.  When we get tense we often unsciously block the movement that we are trying to get.


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## tristar (1 August 2019)

hk i would do everything!   gently, then ask for more, and have you ever been to the gallops?   you dont have to gallop a lot just do what what you can and build on it on a good surface going straight, and for god sake learn shoulder in, its the best thing ever!


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## Amymay (1 August 2019)

indie1282 said:



			I would avoid the schooling altogether and get him out hacking. It really is the best thing to build up stamina and  will strengthen him much better than school work.

You need to do lots of hill work and can still do transitions to keep things interesting.
		
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I absolutely agree. Hack, hack, hack


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## Meowy Catkin (1 August 2019)

I have to agree with the hacking advice and I also think that he needs to build up hill work while out and about. In fact good, old fashioned 'straight line work' ie six to eight weeks walking, slowly building up distance as fitness improves and then slowly introducing trot etc... is exactly what i think this horse needs.


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## Amymay (1 August 2019)

Faracat said:



			I have to agree with the hacking advice and I also think that he needs to build up hill work while out and about. In fact good, old fashioned 'straight line work' ie six to eight weeks walking, slowly building up distance as fitness improves and then slowly introducing trot etc... is exactly what i think this horse needs.
		
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Again, absolutely agree.


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## ester (1 August 2019)

I think that depends whether the OP can be confident enough with him out hacking to have him working properly


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## Meowy Catkin (1 August 2019)

Could she arrange to have a sensible hacking buddy? Maybe get someone else to ride him to start with? Have someone else come on foot or on a bike?


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## Horsekaren (1 August 2019)

ester said:



			I think that depends whether the OP can be confident enough with him out hacking to have him working properly
		
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Well thats a big fat no, my confidence is on the floor, if i cant get him to turn left in walk in the school there is no way i am going to hack him confidently. i can get on him in the yard and ride him the 4 min walk to his field, at the moment i dont trust him to go further.


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## milliepops (1 August 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			Well thats a big fat no, my confidence is on the floor, if i cant get him to turn left in walk in the school there is no way i am going to hack him confidently. i can get on him in the yard and ride him the 4 min walk to his field, at the moment i dont trust him to go further.
		
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HK while I'm sorry that you're feeling like this I think its important to be honest with yourself so I commend you for that. In order to get him in consistent work it has to feel achievable for you. I would definitely seek out someone either to come to you very regularly,  or else send him to someone that can both work him and teach you how to, so you both get some benefits from it.
Theres no point in people saying you should just hack him, if you know deep down inside that you cant do that right now. There are other ways to achieve what you need to do.


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## ycbm (1 August 2019)

HK, I think you need to take LW's advice (if you can afford it) and send him away for a month to six weeks to get someone else to get some real work into him and expose whether he is having you on or he has a real issue somewhere. 

It's not a failure on your part, it's the only sensible way out of the bind he's put you in, for whatever reason he's put you in it. It will also take the pressure off you, which I think you probably need by now. 

I know it all feels overwhelming and like complete shit just now, but there is a route forward with an answer at the end of it. 

This isn't you, it's horse owning. I swear they are put on earth to test us.  Keep your pecker up, we are here to help.


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## Meowy Catkin (1 August 2019)

Can you get some help?


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## Laafet (1 August 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			Well thats a big fat no, my confidence is on the floor, if i cant get him to turn left in walk in the school there is no way i am going to hack him confidently. i can get on him in the yard and ride him the 4 min walk to his field, at the moment i dont trust him to go further.
		
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I do feel you, best thing I could recommend is to get some help. On a side note, I don't like working horses in 'their' space, i.e. field, I find they don't concentrate as much and don't relax enough. Is there no one else you can hack with? I compete a fair bit at a decent level, but I find my boy likes to go for walks in hand so we do that if I want to get some work into him without getting stressed out. I worked with Thoroughbreds most of my life, so I walk a decent pace sometimes I run on the road with him, I only school once a week and then hack out or lunge the rest of the time and we are competing Medium. My horse has a fair few health issues, hock arthritis, proximal suspensory desmitis and coffin joint arthritis to name a few and it keeps him sweet so he doesn't resent the school.


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## Slightlyconfused (1 August 2019)

ester said:



			You need good help on the ground, and preferably a bit on top too so they can show him the right way.
		
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Yep this. 

With out actually being there on the group we can't tell you what to do. 

In reality you don't need the reins to turn them you use your shoulders. 

I would find an instructor who is trained in classical dressage and go from there. 

The leaning on the right could be a multitude of things including that he just finds it easier due to muscle development and you could be lopsided. 

My weaker side is my left, my boy had a op on his right hind. This created a little bit of a ridden problem with him wanting to lean and not use that leg. 
With lots of work, mainly walk and trot, with getting him straight, then leg yielding in and out on a circle to get him to use that leg he has come a long way but bare in mind it has taken me a good year and for 8 months of that we did not do any canter work as the trot needed to improve 

We also did and still do a lot of the time the work in half or quarter of the pace as they find it a lot harder because they have to balance. Rushing means they can't balance. 

So my advice would be don't worry too much about looking pretty, where his head is apart from going straight, and working "hard" as in a fast pace and doing too many things at once as it all leads on to one another. 
Slow it down and be consistent and that will work him harder than you think. 

And look for a classical dressage instructor.


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## Slightlyconfused (1 August 2019)

Also we're abouts are youOP? Maybe we can recommend some help in your area?


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## Hormonal Filly (1 August 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			Trotted up sound
Flexion tests fine
Lunged sound
		
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Funny, as my coloured cob trotted up sound, lunged fine and was 100% found after flexions as well.
We ONLY found his badly arthritic neck after x-raying his full body. To add, bute made no difference not at 4 a day for a 14.1 pony. I had to push and push for x-ray, I knew he didn't feel right! One vet who was suppose to be 'the lameness expert' told me he was taking the piss and I needed to ride him harder at first!

I think the advice here is great, sending him away is a good idea as a new yard, rider etc would be interesting to see how he goes.


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## indie1282 (1 August 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			Well thats a big fat no, my confidence is on the floor, if i cant get him to turn left in walk in the school there is no way i am going to hack him confidently. i can get on him in the yard and ride him the 4 min walk to his field, at the moment i dont trust him to go further.
		
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Can you long line him out?


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## Pearlsasinger (1 August 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			Well thats a big fat no, my confidence is on the floor, if i cant get him to turn left in walk in the school there is no way i am going to hack him confidently. i can get on him in the yard and ride him the 4 min walk to his field, at the moment i dont trust him to go further.
		
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Many horses behave better out of the school, than in it but if you are not confident to hack, there is a problem.  Can you send him away to someone who will hack him, or pay someone to hack him from home, so that he gets used to your hacking routes and you see that he is confident on the roads?  I never like artificial surfaces for rehabbing horses, as imo, they are often the cause of the problems


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## indie1282 (1 August 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Many horses behave better out of the school, than in it but if you are not confident to hack, there is a problem.  Can you send him away to someone who will hack him, or pay someone to hack him from home, so that he gets used to your hacking routes and you see that he is confident on the roads?  I never like artificial surfaces for rehabbing horses, as imo, they are often the cause of the problems
		
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I agree, a surface is not the best for rehabbing. I also think this horse might be a bit school sour and could be a completely different animal out hacking. If you are not confident riding or long lining then I would walk in hand at least.


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## Meowy Catkin (1 August 2019)

Didn't he used to be a driving horse?

If I remembered that correctly (and there wasn't an incident that caused his change of career) is there the possibility of him going back to driving?


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## Pearlsasinger (1 August 2019)

Faracat said:



			Didn't he used to be a driving horse?

If I remembered that correctly (and there wasn't an incident that caused his change of career) is there the possibility of him going back to driving?
		
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IME, driving horses make fabulous 'bombproof' hacks.


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## OdinsMum (1 August 2019)

Apologies, this is a long thread and I have only scrolled through but how about the stifle joint? He seems to be short on the right? hind from video and my boy does occasionally suffer from this due to previous injury.

Second video seemed like a spasm? Maybe a trapped nerve?


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## Horsekaren (5 August 2019)

Well, its been a long time coming but we finally had a good day!!!!!
For the last week i have really been working on his manors, forwards/ backwards, moving his legs, standing still, grooming him in the field and instilling in him that he cannot graze whilst im grooming and its all been going great.  When we went to the vets its took us 40 mins to load so we practiced that again with great success, he is now walking himself up into the trailer happily  

And to top it all off i got on board, he stool still at the mounting block, i then hopped on for 10 mins, walked on a lose rein and was just doing figures of 8s and changing directions with my legs, keeping him off the fence line and he relaxed on the left rein! He started to nap toward my husband so a bit of leg and he quickly stopped  A massive success and built my confidence up. I am taking him to a trainer this weekend so i think that will set us on the right path, he will possible stay there for a bit if the trainer thinks it will help 

Im tipping i know but its been a while! and this saddle has been on the rack for 4 months as i preferred the GP





Interestingly i went to clean his sheath yesterday as id noticed he was kicking his belly and swatting it a lot the last few days and there is really dark red/ brown clumps in there. I didnt want to meddle incase its dry blood so he is having a sheath cleaner come and look at him in a few hours.  Can you imagine if that has actually got a lot to do with a lot :O


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## Melody Grey (5 August 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			Well, its been a long time coming but we finally had a good day!!!!!
For the last week i have really been working on his manors, forwards/ backwards, moving his legs, standing still, grooming him in the field and instilling in him that he cannot graze whilst im grooming and its all been going great.  When we went to the vets its took us 40 mins to load so we practiced that again with great success, he is now walking himself up into the trailer happily 

And to top it all off i got on board, he stool still at the mounting block, i then hopped on for 10 mins, walked on a lose rein and was just doing figures of 8s and changing directions with my legs, keeping him off the fence line and he relaxed on the left rein! He started to nap toward my husband so a bit of leg and he quickly stopped  A massive success and built my confidence up. I am taking him to a trainer this weekend so i think that will set us on the right path, he will possible stay there for a bit if the trainer thinks it will help 

Im tipping i know but its been a while! and this saddle has been on the rack for 4 months as i preferred the GP
View attachment 35154




Interestingly i went to clean his sheath yesterday as id noticed he was kicking his belly and swatting it a lot the last few days and there is really dark red/ brown clumps in there. I didnt want to meddle incase its dry blood so he is having a sheath cleaner come and look at him in a few hours.  Can you imagine if that has actually got a lot to do with a lot :O
		
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Keep up the great work!!!
Yes- a bean wonâ€™t be helping if he has one. Well done OP for keeping an open mind and working through everyoneâ€™s suggestions.


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## Carrottom (5 August 2019)

He looks lovely and relaxed in that picture. Well done for finding a trainer and I hope it really helps.


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## tristar (5 August 2019)

he looks relaxed in the pic.

i m not a fan of sending ANY horse to someone strange, if it was my horse i would want to see every move he makes and observe,how do do know what they will do to him?  trying to ride him `through` his behaviour  might be right or it could be wrong

it all comes down to your confidence and mainly your subtle reading of him in the moment and how you react, , its shxt all round if you are getting chucked off. or having to progress by confrontation,  as opposed to progressing by showing him the way, if he can do it in walk the day will come when he WILL do it in trot and canter. barring discovery of some physical issue

 my best theory is to do what they can do well and build on it by  little steps, so they learn but also come to love being ridden, learn what youcan about the classical approach 

fly gunge in the sheath is horrible


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## MrsMozart (5 August 2019)

Very well done lass.

I've had good and bad experiences with sending horses away. How often will you get to see the horse, etc.?


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## Horsekaren (5 August 2019)

MrsMozart said:



			Very well done lass.

I've had good and bad experiences with sending horses away. How often will you get to see the horse, etc.?
		
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I have used her for issues before and she is a bit like a horse whisperer! she truely just gets them. I have known of a few cases where she turns the horses away with sore backs, ulcers ect I am 99% sure she will give me home work to do with him rather than keep him. I would be there a lot if he stays as i have time off. 

i know a lot of bitless/ halter and bareback stuff is done there so it wont be about beating him down until he goes well it will be a confidence, trust building and relaxation type thing. I wouldn't send him anywhere else!


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## Horsekaren (21 August 2019)

Sooo a little update  
He went away to an amazing lady for a week, I went and had lessons everyday and we worked through a lot. 
Luckily he did the strange gate with her and she was able to come to the conclusion it was tension over his back from the rider. She also found that his tmj was sore and I am basically quasi modo and am super crooked,  he also wasnâ€™t happy in his bridle or saddle. He also is a bit c shaped on one side of his rib cage. We stripped everything back to a rope halter and bareback pad and it all moved forward. He didnâ€™t understand to give to pressure, and he had no clue what I was doing with my seat hence the unable to halt and jogging malarkey. 

She taught me how to use my seat, I can now halt ( Iâ€™m so excited about this I do about 100 every 20 mins ) when he goes to jog I can feel it and ask him not to with my butt ðŸ˜ nearly two years we have been trying to crack this! Iâ€™ve learned about where my weight goes, how to use my weight to turn, yield and shoulder in and itâ€™s all going super! 

One of the biggest things was the bit! I had him in a bomber snaffle and the trainer tried a parelli myler c3 scary looking thing and he was so soft in it it was unreal. I then went and brought the same bridle and bit , we popped it on and I couldnâ€™t stop him, he didnâ€™t want to take any contact, my trainer then got on to see if it was me and he was very unhappy buckleing behind, threatened a rear he hated it so lord knows what the difference , we changed to hers and he was butter again! Luckily my lovely trainer gave me her bridle and bit (exactly the same) and she took mine, she said she had never seen a horse react so differently to essentially the same bit of kit.
I have changed his saddle to a solutions freestyle and itâ€™s staying in place, not slipping , itâ€™s small so fits nice and snug in the right place. He is happy having it put on and after being shown how to stop him moving at the mounting block he now comes and picks me up.  

Still so much to work on, Iâ€™m trying to just focus on my butt , hips, head up and pushing my hands forward and we are going good. His expression looks happier, we can walk!!! In the last year I think Iâ€™ve managed to keep him in walk for five mins then we begin to trot for 20 mins as I couldnâ€™t control the jog let alone halt. 

This was yesterday at home, Iâ€™m having to half halt the rein to get him down but Iâ€™m using my leg and but at the same time, hoping the rein aid will get less and less! We did this for 30 mins in walk, we did so many halts, this one isnâ€™t as sharp as I was practicing keeping him soft during the halt but a massive improvement to getting a halt 2 laps of the school after asking ðŸ˜

Loads to work on but feel like we are getting the foundations in place and I have been reminded of what a cracking pony I have!


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## Michen (21 August 2019)

Horsekaren said:



			Sooo a little update 
He went away to an amazing lady for a week, I went and had lessons everyday and we worked through a lot.
Luckily he did the strange gate with her and she was able to come to the conclusion it was tension over his back from the rider. She also found that his tmj was sore and I am basically quasi modo and am super crooked,  he also wasnâ€™t happy in his bridle or saddle. He also is a bit c shaped on one side of his rib cage. We stripped everything back to a rope halter and bareback pad and it all moved forward. He didnâ€™t understand to give to pressure, and he had no clue what I was doing with my seat hence the unable to halt and jogging malarkey.

She taught me how to use my seat, I can now halt ( Iâ€™m so excited about this I do about 100 every 20 mins ) when he goes to jog I can feel it and ask him not to with my butt ðŸ˜ nearly two years we have been trying to crack this! Iâ€™ve learned about where my weight goes, how to use my weight to turn, yield and shoulder in and itâ€™s all going super!

One of the biggest things was the bit! I had him in a bomber snaffle and the trainer tried a parelli myler c3 scary looking thing and he was so soft in it it was unreal. I then went and brought the same bridle and bit , we popped it on and I couldnâ€™t stop him, he didnâ€™t want to take any contact, my trainer then got on to see if it was me and he was very unhappy buckleing behind, threatened a rear he hated it so lord knows what the difference , we changed to hers and he was butter again! Luckily my lovely trainer gave me her bridle and bit (exactly the same) and she took mine, she said she had never seen a horse react so differently to essentially the same bit of kit.
I have changed his saddle to a solutions freestyle and itâ€™s staying in place, not slipping , itâ€™s small so fits nice and snug in the right place. He is happy having it put on and after being shown how to stop him moving at the mounting block he now comes and picks me up. 

Still so much to work on, Iâ€™m trying to just focus on my butt , hips, head up and pushing my hands forward and we are going good. His expression looks happier, we can walk!!! In the last year I think Iâ€™ve managed to keep him in walk for five mins then we begin to trot for 20 mins as I couldnâ€™t control the jog let alone halt.

This was yesterday at home, Iâ€™m having to half halt the rein to get him down but Iâ€™m using my leg and but at the same time, hoping the rein aid will get less and less! We did this for 30 mins in walk, we did so many halts, this one isnâ€™t as sharp as I was practicing keeping him soft during the halt but a massive improvement to getting a halt 2 laps of the school after asking ðŸ˜

Loads to work on but feel like we are getting the foundations in place and I have been reminded of what a cracking pony I have! 
	View attachment 35720












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I smiled the entire time whilst reading this post. Very pleased for you both.


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## D66 (21 August 2019)

I'm tearing up reading this - Well done.


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## risky business (21 August 2019)

Is he still showing signs of sleep deprivation OP?

I had a horse recently who suffered from it and just wondering if these symptoms had resolved or atleast improved?


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## Leo Walker (21 August 2019)

Brilliant news! Sometimes you just need the right person to unpick everything and then put it back together.


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

so pleased you're enjoying him again, and hope this is the first of many positive posts.


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## flying_high (21 August 2019)

Fantastic. Well done you!!


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## tristar (21 August 2019)

you`re arms look more bent at the elbows in the photo, 

for me the basis  of training is the trot to halt to trot.  so your transitions will do the job


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## Berpisc (21 August 2019)

Great news, keep up the good work.


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## splashgirl45 (21 August 2019)

lovely post,  keep up the good work


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## ycbm (21 August 2019)

What a great update ðŸ˜Š


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## SEL (21 August 2019)

So pleased to read this - well done!! Keep posting on progress, its great following how you are both doing.


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## Tarragon (21 August 2019)

This is a fabulous update! I have been wondering how you were getting on and I am just so pleased for you both.
Aged 56, and after 40 odd years of riding (though nearly all of these just hacking, and that includes the point-to-pointers and hunters that I used to exercise), I decided that I really did need to start again properly and I am getting lessons and my pony and I have gone right back to basics, with a trainer who follows Philippe Karl. My only regret is that I didn't do it sooner! 
I am trying not to think of the cost...


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## milliepops (21 August 2019)

Tarragon said:



			I am trying not to think of the cost...
		
Click to expand...

generally the best approach for anything involving horses


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## indie1282 (21 August 2019)

Your hands......SO much better! Bend in the elbows and looking much softer.


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## View (21 August 2019)

Ah, after looking after two very upset children for a couple of days, it is so nice to read a happy post.

You both look so much happier and therefore better.  Keep the updates coming!


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## Rosiejazzandpia (21 August 2019)

Ooh fabulous news! You both look so much happier together ðŸ˜Š do keep us updated and keep up the good work ðŸ˜


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## ester (21 August 2019)

Your elbows are bloody epic! 

that is the most forward and non-blocking vid I have seen of you riding him, that's a pretty impressive change and I think you will both benefit immensely from that. Also given your confidence levels recently kudos for the bareback pad too.


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## fabbydo (21 August 2019)

Fabulous. Well done.


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## scats (22 August 2019)

What a lovely update!  So pleased for you x


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## Trouper (22 August 2019)

So lovely to read the update - and a good reminder just how complicated it is to work out what is not right and what works best for any horse.  Bit like playing 3-dimensional chess.  Well done.


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## Annagain (27 August 2019)

I've been away so only just caught up with this. I never thought a minute and half of walking would be so good to watch!


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## Horsekaren (2 September 2019)

eeee! i just get too excited about the small things  i hadn't schooled him for 5 days, hopped on yesterday (after a Sunday roast and a large glass of vino at the pub .... ooops)  not sure if the wine relaxed me or he was feeling a lot more comfy having had the tension in his shoulder, jaw  and poll seen to but he was magic  
When we school i now do at least 20 mins of walk, halt, yield, shoulder work. I thought i would have a little play with his trot yesterday, look how soft he is trotting and walking on the left rein. We did a first and tried some halt to trot transitions, my hubby caught our very first try at it and isn't he just lovely  



Halt to trot (first ever attempt) 





"No matter what i  do my pony wont turn left... he locks his neck and takes me to the right"






"he just wont walk, he can only jog :'D"  





He looks like he is really starting to settle into using his body correctly do you think?  We are also going on small hacks every few days, only 20 mins or so and in straight lines with lots of halts so he isnt just on the surface.


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## Slightlyconfused (2 September 2019)

Oh well done you. 

You should be proud of yourself especially for asking questions on here and talking it through. 

You have done brilliantly for your both and I look forward to seeing more progress


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## ycbm (2 September 2019)

Fantastic progress. Well done.


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## McFluff (2 September 2019)

What great progress and well deserved for your bravery and willingness to look at everything.  He looks like a much happier horse (with a happier Mum too!).


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## Damnation (2 September 2019)

Deleted - hadn't finished lol


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