# Eurodressage being sued by Anky/Sjef



## nicolajhall (25 August 2010)

Astrid Appels owner of the Eurodressage webzine has today posted an article making public the fact that she is being sued by Any Van Grunsven and Sjef Jansen:

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2010/08/25/anky-van-grunsven-sues-eurodressage

What I find appalling is Sjef's behaviour towards Astrid 

A Facebook group and Ipetition has been set up supporting Astrid/Eurodressage' right to free speech and I would encourage anyone who does not wish to see "bully tactics" effectively putting an end to the rights of the Press and individuals to comment on dubious training methods/horse welfare issues in the future:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/supportastridappels/


----------



## bahumbug (25 August 2010)

This is the subject of legal action. What does anyone hope that a petition will achieve? And since it is framed as an attack on Anky and Sjef's training methods it looks like ammunition for them if anything.


----------



## spaniel (25 August 2010)

You do know that there are some of us who dont think the sun shines out of AVG dont you....do we not warrant an opinion?


----------



## the_sophies (25 August 2010)

I heard that she sings her own songs for dressage to music. LOL.


----------



## Oscar (25 August 2010)

Sjeff and Anky can kiss my shiny ring piece!! I hope they dissapear into the sunset and move to Texas and continue with their new found reining!! The Americans are welcome to them!!


----------



## PippiPony (25 August 2010)

Not a big surprise.  Eurodressage has been very openly critical of AVG & SJ.  They do not seem to take well to criticism. QED they sue.


----------



## bahumbug (25 August 2010)

spaniel said:



			You do know that there are some of us who dont think the sun shines out of AVG dont you....do we not warrant an opinion?
		
Click to expand...

Of course you do [warrant an opinion], what I am trying to get across that the petition with this sort of rhetoric added simply gives 'AVG' [as you put it], more ammunition for their case. Merely making a point, no need for rudeness, although there is plenty of this exhibited later on in the thread. 

On the rudeness issue, I find it extraordinary that this sort of language continues under the mods nose whereas a very reasoned discussion under another topic has been pulled three times without any abusive language. Bizarre.................


----------



## Saronicos (25 August 2010)

HorseyLad said:



			Sjeff and Anky can kiss my shiny ring piece!! I hope they dissapear into the sunset and move to Texas and continue with their new found reining!! The Americans are welcome to them!!
		
Click to expand...

AAARRRGGGHHH!!!  We don't need them in Texas thank you very much!


----------



## Onyxia (25 August 2010)

The trouble with freedom of speech is that you have to have the balls to be held acountable.
If an individual has a problem with what is printed about them they have the right to sue should they wish-if Eurodressage has been objective and done nothing wrong the it will all sort itself out in no time.

Stormy teacup anyone?


----------



## bahumbug (25 August 2010)

Yunalesca said:



			The trouble with freedom of speech is that you have to have the balls to be held acountable.
If an individual has a problem with what is printed about them they have the right to sue should they wish-if Eurodressage has been objective and done nothing wrong the it will all sort itself out in no time.

Stormy teacup anyone? 

Click to expand...

You're so right about the stormy teacup - and this is not about anything WRITTEN, it  is about use of Salinero's picture (not showing Anky) on a report about rollkur....


----------



## JDChaser (25 August 2010)

Best of luck to EuroDressage.


----------



## Rouletterose (25 August 2010)

Good luck to Eurodressage...A and S think they are gods...she was so much nicer before she met him, as far as I'm concerned he's ignorant and I've seen him practically ignoring her when he's in a mood.


----------



## Booboos (25 August 2010)

Freedom of speech does NOT allow for unsubstantiated allegations of animal abuse which affect someone's professional reputation. If Eurodressage can back up their allegations, good for them, they will have a very easy time of it,  printing the truth is not a problem. If they can't, then they deserve what they get because journalists should not go around printing anything they feel like, they have a duty to substantiate their claims.

I don't see why the personal characters of anyone involved in this are in any way relevant.


----------



## the_sophies (25 August 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUUeRFZt8ec

Because it must be so COMFORTABLE to dance about with your nose attached to your neck!


----------



## bahumbug (25 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			Freedom of speech does NOT allow for unsubstantiated allegations of animal abuse which affect someone's professional reputation. If Eurodressage can back up their allegations, good for them, they will have a very easy time of it,  printing the truth is not a problem. If they can't, then they deserve what they get because journalists should not go around printing anything they feel like, they have a duty to substantiate their claims.

I don't see why the personal characters of anyone involved in this are in any way relevant.
		
Click to expand...

The whole point here, and this is why it has been blown out of all proportion, is that it is about the use of a picture in conjunction with a really inoffensive article. No words, accusations or such. No faces shown. Not even a caption naming the horse. The whole thing is massively stupid!


----------



## Rouletterose (25 August 2010)

the_sophies said:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUUeRFZt8ec

Because it must be so COMFORTABLE to dance about with your nose attached to your neck!
		
Click to expand...

Well said, don't want to look at that appalling video again, but thanks for reminding, would be very glad if they both retired.


----------



## bahumbug (25 August 2010)

Rouletterose said:



			Good luck to Eurodressage...A and S think they are gods...she was so much nicer before she met him, as far as I'm concerned he's ignorant and I've seen him practically ignoring her when he's in a mood.
		
Click to expand...

They've been together since the Iron Age....how old are you?


----------



## Booboos (26 August 2010)

the_sophies said:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUUeRFZt8ec

Because it must be so COMFORTABLE to dance about with your nose attached to your neck!
		
Click to expand...

As I am not a horse it is difficult to say what it would feel like.

BTW some people, indeed some of the same people who argue against rollkur like Dr H, also argue against riding a horse hollow...


----------



## the_sophies (26 August 2010)

I'm sure you can IMAGINE what it would feel like.  

Are you referring to my avatar?  I have to say I didn't mind him being hollow for the four strides of trot he did, since it was the first time I'd ridden him in the sea.  Hey Ho.


----------



## Booboos (26 August 2010)

the_sophies said:



			I'm sure you can IMAGINE what it would feel like.  

Are you referring to my avatar?  I have to say I didn't mind him being hollow for the four strides of trot he did, since it was the first time I'd ridden him in the sea.  Hey Ho.
		
Click to expand...


Not very easily no, seeing as I am not a horse. Can you imagine what echolocation is like for a bat?

Yes, I am. The point is that making a judgement based on a photo without knowing the background or details is unfair and hurtful. This I imagine (there I go, now I can do it!) is what AVG feels about her situation as well. I suspect she would like to say "Hey Ho" as well and get on with riding her horses.


----------



## Seth (26 August 2010)

Luckily we don't have to only rely on one photo; there's tons of them and a video or 2 too


----------



## misterjinglejay (26 August 2010)

I don't understand the idea of rollkur - the hindlegs cannot come through, and this shows on the videos of it. The horse cannot physically step under, so whats the blooming point?

Am I being too niave?


----------



## Booboos (27 August 2010)

Seth said:



			Luckily we don't have to only rely on one photo; there's tons of them and a video or 2 too  

Click to expand...

I don't think AVG denies riding her horses in this manner, I believe she talks openly about it and demonstrates the technique in public (I for one saw her do so at the BD convention), so I am not sure why you think the photos/videos are relevant. The question is, is it harmful? That can't be proven with a photo.


----------



## zefragile (27 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			I don't think AVG denies riding her horses in this manner, I believe she talks openly about it and demonstrates the technique in public (I for one saw her do so at the BD convention), so I am not sure why you think the photos/videos are relevant. The question is, is it harmful? That can't be proven with a photo.
		
Click to expand...

I thought this whole issue was due to a picture of Salinero (where AVG is not even visible) having a caption about being ridden in hyperflexion/rollkur, not whether it is harmful or not.


----------



## Booboos (27 August 2010)

zefragile said:



			I thought this whole issue was due to a picture of Salinero (where AVG is not even visible) having a caption about being ridden in hyperflexion/rollkur, not whether it is harmful or not.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, but it only makes sense in light of the recent FEI distinction between rollkur which they define as prolonged, forcefull and unacceptable because of the harm it causes, on the one hand, and LDR on the other, which is acceptable. Prior to this distinction Anky would openly discuss her training method as using this position (call it what you like) but achieved with impulsion from behind and no inappropriate use of force. Following the distinction, Anky claims to practice the acceptable LDR, not the unacceptable rollkur/hyperflexion.

The photo links Anky's training with the banned FEI practice. To do this, one would need to have evidence that what Anky is doing is forceful and therefore harmful. We'll all get to see what happens in the court case, but I doubt Eurodressage will find it easy to come up with this evidence.

On the use of force even people who do not practice LDR themselves will publicly acknowledge that Anky does not ride forcefully, e.g. Kyra Kyrklund.


----------



## Over2You (27 August 2010)

I really don't get this. If Rollkur is banned, then why the hell has AVG not been punished. The practice is known to damage the connective soft tissues in horses, it makes them unbalanced and cuts off the blood supply to the tongue!! What more evidence do you need that the training method is harmful. I used to like AVG, but not now, not after researching RK. 

Good luck Eurodressage!


----------



## Booboos (27 August 2010)

Over2You said:



			I really don't get this. If Rollkur is banned, then why the hell has AVG not been punished. The practice is known to damage the connective soft tissues in horses, it makes them unbalanced and cuts off the blood supply to the tongue!! What more evidence do you need that the training method is harmful. I used to like AVG, but not now, not after researching RK. 

Good luck Eurodressage!
		
Click to expand...

See my post above and here it goes again:

The question is what is rollkur and what is banned. The FEI has banned ridding horses in a hyperflexed position for a prolonged period of time and using force. That means that riding horses in a hyperfleved position for a limited period of time and without using force is perfectly fine.

The article in question associated through the use of the photo, Anky with the banned practice with no other evidence that what she does is the allowed practice rather than the banned practice. If this supplementary evidence is available and presented to court Eurodressage has every chance of being acquited, if it does not exist then they may well be in trouble.

On the principle of the thing, no one should support a journalist making a negative and damaging allegation without evidence to back it, because you may be the next person they decide to pick on. 

Can you please provide references to the claims that rollkur damages connective tissue and cuts off the blood supply to the tongue? Thanks!


----------



## LittleBlackMule (27 August 2010)

http://fuglyblog.com/

Took the words right out of my mouth..


----------



## BBH (27 August 2010)

To bother suing someone you have to be very sensitive to the issue.

So whether Rolkur is legal / illegal   harmful / not harmful the fact that AVG has taken issue with ED over it means they are aware that criticism may be levelled at them. If you are secure about your training practices surely you'd just write off ED views as not worth worrying about rather than suing.

It all seems very small minded to me. Lots of professionals ride in a way to attract criticism at some point but they don't all sue those criticising. If you are in the public eye and very successful you have to expect comment / feedback on your methods whether they be good or bad. Suing for comments you don't like seems rather petty to me.


----------



## Over2You (27 August 2010)

Have a look at the following:

http://horsesanddressage.multiply.c...s_ABUSE---Blue_Tongues_at_World_Cup_Qualifier

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UwqyMCr_7c

http://www.gerdheuschmann.com/bdp-spann-lang~en.html


----------



## Isobelleizzy (27 August 2010)

AVG actions suggest that she is not comfortable with what she pratices. If there wasn't a problem with rollkur as she implies, and it does no harm to the horse, then whats her problem. Why sue ED? I think its very hypocritical of AVG.

I personally think it is far too extreme a practice and a little horrific, like the anky school of torture or something..... Especially for the prolonged amount of time she/and others use it for. I would not feel comfortable watching or using this method. Other 'top' riders obviously disagree!!


----------



## Booboos (27 August 2010)

Over2You said:



			Have a look at the following:

http://horsesanddressage.multiply.c...s_ABUSE---Blue_Tongues_at_World_Cup_Qualifier

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UwqyMCr_7c

http://www.gerdheuschmann.com/bdp-spann-lang~en.html

Click to expand...

Do you know of any scientific studies published in peer review journals? Surely if rollkur is so harmful it would be really, really easy to come up with evidence.

 I can't really draw conclusions on the harmfulness of an activity by merely seeing it practiced, as explained above.


----------



## the_sophies (27 August 2010)

http://www.be-hippy.nl/paard/rollkur 1.pdf

'During (Rollkur), horses moved slower and showed more often behavioural signs of discomfort, such as tail-swishing, head-tossing or attempted bucks.'

The author does state that further studies need to assess horses reaction to gradual training of Rollkur, as opposed to a coercively obtained hyperflexion.   



----------



## the_sophies (27 August 2010)

To be able to say anything about the long term effects of rollkur, scientists  would have to look at a large population of horses which had been subjected to rollkur on a regular basis. And a control group would be needed, consisting of horses of a similar quality, which had never been subjected to any form of unnatural head and neck position during training.



Such a study has never been performed  according to a report on the welfare implications of hyperflexion by Dutch scientist Dr. Kathalijne Visser, commissioned by the Dutch Ministry of Agriculture in 2009, it is due to a lack of funding and suitable horses available to scientists as well as - perhaps more notably: ethical issues associated with applying aversive procedures in research. In other words, scientists have trouble finding out whether rollkur is cruel, because it might be too cruel to test it out on living horses.


----------



## Isobelleizzy (27 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			Do you know of any scientific studies published in peer review journals? Surely if rollkur is so harmful it would be really, really easy to come up with evidence.

 I can't really draw conclusions on the harmfulness of an activity by merely seeing it practiced, as explained above.
		
Click to expand...

Surely though, common sense and a knowledge of ethical horsemanship prevails? If a horse is not moving freely, looks truly uncomfortable and cannot see where it is going demonstrates in itself that it should not be an "excercise" that should be used as AVG promotes? 

Its all good and well saying to provide an argument where it is stated that rollkur is harmful, however, provide scientific evidence where it states that rollkur is not harmful when used to the extent that AVG does. Because I surely cannot.


----------



## Booboos (27 August 2010)

the_sophies said:



http://www.be-hippy.nl/paard/rollkur 1.pdf

'During (Rollkur), horses moved slower and showed more often behavioural signs of discomfort, such as tail-swishing, head-tossing or attempted bucks.'

The author does state that further studies need to assess horses reaction to gradual training of Rollkur, as opposed to a coercively obtained hyperflexion.   

		
Click to expand...

This is a fairly poor study for a number of reasons:
- no double blind controls. 
- no control group for no ridden exercise. I wonder if horses got a choice between being ridden and being turned out how many would chose to be ridden and what conclusions one would want to draw from that.
- no accounting for the fact the sudden introduction to rollkur may well be harmful, whereas gradual is not (i.e. because muscles build over time which allow the horse to carry itself in this position)
- even if you ignore all this, the study doesn't really show as what is of interest to a horse is entirely different from what in a horse's interest


----------



## Booboos (27 August 2010)

the_sophies said:



			To be able to say anything about the long term effects of rollkur, scientists  would have to look at a large population of horses which had been subjected to rollkur on a regular basis. And a control group would be needed, consisting of horses of a similar quality, which had never been subjected to any form of unnatural head and neck position during training.



Such a study has never been performed  according to a report on the welfare implications of hyperflexion by Dutch scientist Dr. Kathalijne Visser, commissioned by the Dutch Ministry of Agriculture in 2009, it is due to a lack of funding and suitable horses available to scientists as well as - perhaps more notably: ethical issues associated with applying aversive procedures in research. In other words, scientists have trouble finding out whether rollkur is cruel, because it might be too cruel to test it out on living horses.
		
Click to expand...


I completely agree with the first paragraph, although the second one makes no sense.  A large number of horses are currently ridden in rollkur, surely it would be easy to obtain statistical data as to the rate of injuries as opposed to other highly trained competition horses. Also, many of Dr H's claims about muscular degeneration and bony growths would be easily proven in post-mortems as well as physiological manipulations.

Seeing as rollkur is already being practiced on living horses and the testing does not impose an additional burden, I don't quite see the ethical problem here (and I am a moral philosopher so ethical problems do tend to stand out for me!).


----------



## Booboos (27 August 2010)

Isobelleizzy said:



			Surely though, common sense and a knowledge of ethical horsemanship prevails? If a horse is not moving freely, looks truly uncomfortable and cannot see where it is going demonstrates in itself that it should not be an "excercise" that should be used as AVG promotes? 

Its all good and well saying to provide an argument where it is stated that rollkur is harmful, however, provide scientific evidence where it states that rollkur is not harmful when used to the extent that AVG does. Because I surely cannot.
		
Click to expand...

"Cannot see where it is going" is a physical claim which you should be able to prove. "Not moving freely, looks truly uncomfortable" - not everyone agrees with you here and certainly not the FEI or international judges. And if this doesn't convince you just look at the huge differences in opinion about a horse's way of going between the most respected riders, judges and trainers - when there is so much disagreement on such a subjective topic someone's view is not sufficient evidence. Afterall PETA thinks that all riding looks uncomfortable and harmful to horses, but we don't really want to rely on that do we?

You do not need to show that something is not harmful in order to do it, if that was the case, we would hardly be able to do anything. You do need to show that something is harmful in order to ban it though! The burden of proof is with those who wish to restrict the activity.


----------



## the_sophies (28 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			- no control group for no ridden exercise. I wonder if horses got a choice between being ridden and being turned out how many would chose to be ridden and what conclusions one would want to draw from that.
		
Click to expand...

There was no need for a control group for no ridden exercise because the study was an attempt to investigate whether or not horses had an aversion to Rollkur.  The purpose was not to discover whether horses had an aversion to ridden exercise; while I suspect that such a study would have interesting results, I'm not sure that they would be relevant to this argument. The point is that the horses exhibited a fear/pain response when ridden in Rollkur.

I can't imagine that anyone openly admitting to riding in Rollkur for extended periods of time would agree to their horses being used in scientific studies of it's ill-effects.  Such studies have the potential to destroy their professional career.  However, I could be wrong!

Purely for interest value: 
http://www.classicalriding.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=278&Itemid=291

The FEI state that the dressage horse should be 'a happy athlete':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4

I do accept that, for a horse to compete at this level, not all of his training will be 'enjoyable' from his point of view.  What I do find unacceptable is the apparent open disregard for the horse's welfare.


----------



## the_sophies (28 August 2010)

BHS Release Further Statement.

"As the debate over the use of hyperflexion as a training technique continues, The British Horse Societys policy may be stated as follows:

The British Horse Society strongly recommends that all riders training horses on the flat and over fences should adhere to the official instruction handbook of the German National Equestrian Federation. Whilst we appreciate that horses are as individual as humans, and that some may require corrective schooling, the BHSs stand on hyperflexion (by which we mean the extreme flexion of the horses head and neck beyond normal limits) remains clear: it is an unacceptable method of training horses by any rider for any length of time.

We recognise that the scientific evidence is conflicting, and likely to remain so as each party seeks determinedly to prove its case. For this reason we doubt that science will ever provide a single, clear, unambiguous and unarguable answer. It therefore falls to humans to do what the horses cannot, namely to follow the precautionary principle: as nature provides no evidence of horses choosing to move in hyperflexion for an extended period of time; and as hyperflexion can create tension in the horses neck and back which has no justifying necessity; and as the horse in hyperflexion is, by definition, unable fully to use its neck; and as the psychological consequences of such treatment remain latent (perhaps in an analogous position with horses which are whipped aggressively but which can still pass a five star vetting), we should take all appropriate steps to discourage the use of this training technique, for the horses sake."


----------



## Over2You (28 August 2010)

Why all these studies? Why waste all that time and money when all they need to do is have their chin pinned to their chest, have their tongue flattened to the point of its blood supply being cut-off, and then try and walk and jog about the place. They'd be quick enough to ban it then!!


----------



## brighteyes (28 August 2010)

Seth said:



			Luckily we don't have to only rely on one photo; there's tons of them and a video or 2 too  

Click to expand...

I think you mean Sadly, not Luckily...


----------



## spaniel (29 August 2010)

QR.


Why do I feel as though I am banging my head on a wall when it comes to rolkur.  Its flippin' obvious isnt it????....If you stretch a ligament/tendon/muscle etc beyond its range for long enough and put enough strain on it its going to break in some way.  Why can nobody see this????

It seems to me that there is a worrying lack of basic anatomy/physiology knowledge amongst the large proportion of horse riders both here and in general (and no I wont apologise for that comment - I stand by it).


----------



## Isobelleizzy (29 August 2010)

spaniel said:



			QR.


Why do I feel as though I am banging my head on a wall when it comes to rolkur.  Its flippin' obvious isnt it????....If you stretch a ligament/tendon/muscle etc beyond its range for long enough and put enough strain on it its going to break in some way.  Why can nobody see this????

It seems to me that there is a worrying lack of basic anatomy/physiology knowledge amongst the large proportion of horse riders both here and in general (and no I wont apologise for that comment - I stand by it).
		
Click to expand...

Agreed!


----------



## Isobelleizzy (29 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			You do not need to show that something is not harmful in order to do it, if that was the case, we would hardly be able to do anything. You do need to show that something is harmful in order to ban it though! The burden of proof is with those who wish to restrict the activity.
		
Click to expand...

Surely though, with such a high profile case as this, and the effects of rollkur being so questionable. It is up to the supporters and those who use it to prove the non believers wrong. Like with any debate, you need to see both sides. If it's as fabulous as you are claiming it to be why have the fei and bhs had their own investigations and neither with a truly positive outcome? However, whether you like it or not, there is far more substantial and scientific evidence to demonstrate the negetive effects.

Even if rollkur was to be banned there is no effective method to restrict it's use away from a competition environment.


----------



## Onyxia (29 August 2010)

spaniel said:



			QR.


Why do I feel as though I am banging my head on a wall when it comes to rolkur.  Its flippin' obvious isnt it????....If you stretch a ligament/tendon/muscle etc beyond its range for long enough and put enough strain on it its going to break in some way.  Why can nobody see this????

It seems to me that there is a worrying lack of basic anatomy/physiology knowledge amongst the large proportion of horse riders both here and in general (and no I wont apologise for that comment - I stand by it).
		
Click to expand...

How wonderfully put!
I wrestled when younger. To get someone to tap out (ie hurt them enough they give up) we used hyper flexion and hyper extension-it is not difficult to see that stretching or flexing a piece of the body beyound it's norm is dangerous and painfull.


----------



## Booboos (30 August 2010)

the_sophies said:



http://www.be-hippy.nl/paard/rollkur 1.pdf

'During (Rollkur), horses moved slower and showed more often behavioural signs of discomfort, such as tail-swishing, head-tossing or attempted bucks.'

The author does state that further studies need to assess horses&#8217; reaction to gradual training of Rollkur, as opposed to a coercively obtained hyperflexion.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I can't see the link but Occam's razor would suggest here that it is the coercively and sudden nature of the study that caused the reaction rather than the position.


----------



## Booboos (30 August 2010)

the_sophies said:



			There was no need for a control group for no ridden exercise because the study was an attempt to investigate whether or not horses had an aversion to Rollkur.  The purpose was not to discover whether horses had an aversion to ridden exercise; while I suspect that such a study would have interesting results, I'm not sure that they would be relevant to this argument. The point is that the horses exhibited a fear/pain response when ridden in Rollkur.

I can't imagine that anyone openly admitting to riding in Rollkur for extended periods of time would agree to their horses being used in scientific studies of it's ill-effects.  Such studies have the potential to destroy their professional career.  However, I could be wrong!

Purely for interest value: 
http://www.classicalriding.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=278&Itemid=291

The FEI state that the dressage horse should be 'a happy athlete':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4

I do accept that, for a horse to compete at this level, not all of his training will be 'enjoyable' from his point of view.  What I do find unacceptable is the apparent open disregard for the horse's welfare.
		
Click to expand...

You don't chose your control group in a study based on what you want to study, you chose it to ensure that the results you get are accurate. You need a control group in order to observe behaviour independent of the characteristic you are seeking to study, otherwise it's very difficult to determine what is the result of the characteristic and what would have occured anyway. Hence the speculation that horses may have chosen not to be ridden at all, which would invalidate the results of the study. Studies must be designed to prove their conclusions not assume them.

If this is a welfare issue you need to be able to show the harm.


----------



## Booboos (30 August 2010)

Over2You said:



			Why all these studies? Why waste all that time and money when all they need to do is have their chin pinned to their chest, have their tongue flattened to the point of its blood supply being cut-off, and then try and walk and jog about the place. They'd be quick enough to ban it then!!
		
Click to expand...

Good idea! I thought I would ease myself into it so I started with some piaffe and passage, progressed to canter pirouettes, but now my back is out and I can't move! I am beginning to think my body wasn't really designed to be a horse...


----------



## Booboos (30 August 2010)

spaniel said:



			QR.


Why do I feel as though I am banging my head on a wall when it comes to rolkur.  Its flippin' obvious isnt it????....If you stretch a ligament/tendon/muscle etc beyond its range for long enough and put enough strain on it its going to break in some way.  Why can nobody see this????

It seems to me that there is a worrying lack of basic anatomy/physiology knowledge amongst the large proportion of horse riders both here and in general (and no I wont apologise for that comment - I stand by it).
		
Click to expand...

You appear to be claiming that rollkur leads to broken ligaments, tendons and muscles. This is a very serious welfare claim, but luckily really, really easy to verify. Would you care to share with us the evidence that led you to it (other than 'flippin' obvious' and common sense please, torn ligaments, tendons and muscles do not need common sense they can be perfectly well diagnosed).

Many who are critical of rollkur, like Phillipe Karl and Dr H, practice Baucher flexions. Could you please explain why it's not equally flippin' obvious that stretching the same ligaments/tendons/muscles sideways rather than downwads is absolutely no problem? To be fair my knowledge of equine anatomy/physiology is almost non-existent, but please feel free to share yours.


----------



## Booboos (30 August 2010)

Isobelleizzy said:



			Surely though, with such a high profile case as this, and the effects of rollkur being so questionable. It is up to the supporters and those who use it to prove the non believers wrong. Like with any debate, you need to see both sides. If it's as fabulous as you are claiming it to be why have the fei and bhs had their own investigations and neither with a truly positive outcome? However, whether you like it or not, there is far more substantial and scientific evidence to demonstrate the negetive effects.

Even if rollkur was to be banned there is no effective method to restrict it's use away from a competition environment.
		
Click to expand...

If you want to restrict someone's liberty the onus is on you to provide the evidence. How high profile the activity may be is irrelevant. 

If you claim that something is harmful you should provide the evidence for it as this is your claim. If the harm is there it should be easy to point to its effects.

Feel free to point me to the scientific evidence.

I never said that rollkur is fabulous or even any good. You claimed it was not, please provide evidence for your claim. You can't expect me to provide support for a position I do not hold, while entirely failing to provide any support for yours.


----------



## Saucisson (30 August 2010)

If you stretch a ligament/tendon/muscle etc beyond its range for long enough and put enough strain on it its going to break in some way.  Why can nobody see this????
		
Click to expand...

Like ballet dancers, gymnasts, martial artists and many other top athletes?  I read somewhere once that the difference between being good at sport and being a winner is the ability to resist pain.   I'll happily stay at the bottom of the pile then 

I don't know too much about Rollkur, OH does do some flexion exercises for short periods of time with ours but I'm not sure that it's "Rollkur" as such.  I do think it is now a label for certain training practices that some people take too far.

OH also does "horse yoga" with his mare to help her recover after hard work which I thinks rather nice and she certainly enjoys it.


----------



## falaise (30 August 2010)

Just have to say this thread made fascinating reading! Well researched for both sides with some pretty convincing arguments!!!

I personally don't agree with Rollkur. But I probably do things that other people would not agree with. I back my youngsters at 3. Some people do it at 2, or 4, or even 5. All do it in different ways. Horses, like people, are individuals and must be treated as such. Noone really knows what horses feel during Rollkur as, as has been pointed out, we are not in any way anatomically similar to horses. It looks to me to be horribly uncomfortable, and I have always been encouraged to keep my horses soft and round, not force them into maybe unnatural positions. 

Have learnt a lot since joining the H&H forums, thanks everyone, why didn't I join sooner?!


----------



## the_sophies (30 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			You don't chose your control group in a study based on what you want to study, you chose it to ensure that the results you get are accurate. You need a control group in order to observe behaviour independent of the characteristic you are seeking to study, otherwise it's very difficult to determine what is the result of the characteristic and what would have occured anyway. Hence the speculation that horses may have chosen not to be ridden at all, which would invalidate the results of the study. Studies must be designed to prove their conclusions not assume them.

If this is a welfare issue you need to be able to show the harm.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with the first part of your statement.  However, to propose that we might investigate the effects of rollkur using 'turned out horses' as a control 
group is ludicrous.  The purpose of the study was to investigate whether horses had an aversion to being ridden in rollkur, as opposed to _not_ being ridden in rollkur.  So the control group consisted of horses being ridden without hyperflexion of the neck.  The issue is not whether horses would prefer to be turned out or ridden.

The harm, to my mind, is evident in pictures and videos of horses being ridden in rollkur.  It is my opinion that anyone who has even a slight knowledge of the mechanics of the horse can see that these animals are working under extreme stress.  

I think it's easy to see which horse is happier in his work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzG-0TyTuMs&feature=player_embedded#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSVmnHm9tQg&feature=related

Perhaps I am too easily convinced?  Yet definitively proving it to be harmful, in the form of post mortem evidence, would merely illustrate further the pain and stress horses are willing to put up with for our benefit.  Personally, I don't feel like I need to see any further evidence of that.


----------



## Burnttoast (30 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			Many who are critical of rollkur, like Phillipe Karl and Dr H, practice Baucher flexions. Could you please explain why it's not equally flippin' obvious that stretching the same ligaments/tendons/muscles sideways rather than downwads is absolutely no problem? To be fair my knowledge of equine anatomy/physiology is almost non-existent, but please feel free to share yours.
		
Click to expand...

I'm certainly not an expert (on anything much!) but I was under the impression that one of the main problems with rollkur as it's perceived by many people is not that it is beyond the horse's normal range of movement, but that many horses appear to be ridden in it for such long periods (even up to entire sessions, including all the movements, not just the thirty-second stretch that an athlete might perform for a specific purpose). Surely any type of flexion for suppling purposes should be of brief duration, or no strengthening can result, other than by the horse bracing itself against the stretch? As far as the use of Baucher flexions is concerned, you don't tend to see horses being ridden simultaneously in, for example, piaffe and an extreme lateral flexion, as has been documented for rollkur and the higher-level movements.

I've heard rollkur explained by an experienced professional dressage rider in a candid moment as a means mainly to improve *submission* (in the dictionary sense, not the 'happy athlete' sense) in hot, big-moving modern warmblood horses. Not suppleness, note! My own feelings about that are that since we (in a general sense) have managed to breed horses of such immense athletic ability and power it is also our duty to raise our riding ability to meet the horse, not the other way around (or perhaps to settle for not always demanding every inch of what the horse is capable of producing). Perhaps it's breeding practices that need some attention too?


----------



## Booboos (31 August 2010)

the_sophies said:



			I agree with the first part of your statement.  However, to propose that we might investigate the effects of rollkur using 'turned out horses' as a control 
group is ludicrous.  The purpose of the study was to investigate whether horses had an aversion to being ridden in rollkur, as opposed to _not_ being ridden in rollkur.  So the control group consisted of horses being ridden without hyperflexion of the neck.  The issue is not whether horses would prefer to be turned out or ridden.

The harm, to my mind, is evident in pictures and videos of horses being ridden in rollkur.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I am not explaining myself well here. So this study looks into whether horses have an aversion to being ridden in rollkur, and if they do presumably we will conclude that they shouldn't be ridden in rollkur. If there was a no ridding control group this would check whether horses also have an aversion to being ridden, and by the same logic we should conclude that horses should not be ridden at all.

Fair enough, it also seems to be evident to a lot of other people. This is perfectly acceptable for making up one's own mind about rollkur, but it's not acceptable for banning it. After all PETA members think that all riding is evidently harmful simply by looking at it and this is a perfectly acceptable reason for not riding themselves, but not good enough for stopping us from riding.


----------



## FrodoBeutlin (31 August 2010)

Murf15 said:



			I'm certainly not an expert (on anything much!) but I was under the impression that one of the main problems with rollkur as it's perceived by many people is not that it is beyond the horse's normal range of movement, but that many horses appear to be ridden in it for such long periods (even up to entire sessions, including all the movements, not just the thirty-second stretch that an athlete might perform for a specific purpose). Surely any type of flexion for suppling purposes should be of brief duration, or no strengthening can result, other than by the horse bracing itself against the stretch? As far as the use of Baucher flexions is concerned, you don't tend to see horses being ridden simultaneously in, for example, piaffe and an extreme lateral flexion, as has been documented for rollkur and the higher-level movements.

I've heard rollkur explained by an experienced professional dressage rider in a candid moment as a means mainly to improve *submission* (in the dictionary sense, not the 'happy athlete' sense) in hot, big-moving modern warmblood horses. Not suppleness, note! My own feelings about that are that since we (in a general sense) have managed to breed horses of such immense athletic ability and power it is also our duty to raise our riding ability to meet the horse, not the other way around (or perhaps to settle for not always demanding every inch of what the horse is capable of producing). Perhaps it's breeding practices that need some attention too?
		
Click to expand...

This is a lot of sense.

But what I'd like to know is, was there such an uproar when AVG & SJ sued St Georg, which is a magazine with far more history and prestige than the Eurodressage website, for their Dressur Pervers article? (I can't remember to be honest, maybe there was).


----------



## Halfstep (31 August 2010)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			This is a lot of sense.

But what I'd like to know is, was there such an uproar when AVG & SJ sued St Georg, which is a magazine with far more history and prestige than the Eurodressage website, for their Dressur Pervers article? (I can't remember to be honest, maybe there was).
		
Click to expand...

There was a lot of fuss about it then, and for a lot of people it was the first time the whole idea of Rollkur came onto their radar. For what its worth, that article in St. Georg was far, far more damning than anything Astrid has written. The issue now is that the FEI has said that Rollkur is not allowed, but has not defined it. So to accuse Anky of Rollkur is to say she's breaking the FEI rules, but no one knows what Rollkur is in the eyes of the FEI, so it is a massive great mess (surprise, surprise).


----------



## Mearas (31 August 2010)

I have only just picked up this thread and really enjoyed the level of debate. One thing I have never had explained to me and I would really really like to understand is what AVG refers to as  a Competition Outline, I have no idea what this is?


----------



## spaniel (31 August 2010)

Booboos I feel a good starting point would be if you spent some time aquainting yourself with how the horses body works.  Until then I dont think we have much common ground so any time spent by me here in stating my case is probably either wasted or lost on you.


----------



## lillith (31 August 2010)

"The walk is regular, free and unconstrained. The trot is free, supple, regular
and active. The canter is united, light and balanced. The hindquarters are
never inactive or sluggish. The horse responds to the slightest indication of
the athlete and thereby gives life and spirit to all the rest of its body.

4. By virtue of a lively impulsion and the suppleness of the joints, free from the
paralysing effects of resistance, the horse obeys willingly and without
hesitation and responds to the various aids calmly and with precision,
displaying a natural and harmonious balance both physically and mentally.

5. In all the work, even at the halt, the horse must be on the bit. A horse is
said to be on the bit when the neck is more or less raised and arched
according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the pace,
accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. The
head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the
vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance
should be offered to the athlete."

From http://www.fei.org/sites/default/fi...GE/Rules/Dre_Rules-09_update2010_Black_DM.pdf - the official FEI rules.

With particular reference to paragraph 5 - where does rollkur or overbending fit with "The
head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the
vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck,"

Wether Rollkur is cruel or not (personaly I don't like it) those who train extensively using the method should not be winning as it DOES (watch the videos, even the non-rollkur ones) lead to the nose behind the vertical and the 3rd vetebrae being the highest rather than the poll. One does not have to go to the extremes of rollkur or LDR to achieve this look though, it is the prevelant one in many diciplines at the moment. Right or wrong on a welfare level the FEI should either change their rules to reflect their judging or change their judging to reflect their rules.


----------



## FrodoBeutlin (31 August 2010)

Halfstep said:



			There was a lot of fuss about it then, and for a lot of people it was the first time the whole idea of Rollkur came onto their radar. For what its worth, that article in St. Georg was far, far more damning than anything Astrid has written. The issue now is that the FEI has said that Rollkur is not allowed, but has not defined it. So to accuse Anky of Rollkur is to say she's breaking the FEI rules, but no one knows what Rollkur is in the eyes of the FEI, so it is a massive great mess (surprise, surprise).
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, I genuinely could not remember; though I still remember the article very well (I must still have it somewhere). Yes that specific article was more damning, but then again, in my humble opinion A. has been, on occasions, *extremely* unprofessional, I think this issue (the picture and caption) is just the proverbial last straw for AVG & SJ.


----------



## Booboos (31 August 2010)

spaniel said:



			Booboos I feel a good starting point would be if you spent some time aquainting yourself with how the horses body works.  Until then I dont think we have much common ground so any time spent by me here in stating my case is probably either wasted or lost on you.
		
Click to expand...

I feel that responding to my ignorance by refusing to enlighten me and insisting I go off and do something else is a bit mean. I may be slow and require a bit of help, but be kind and share your insights.

For what it's worth I have followed up with all the suggestions I have had so far. I have gone off and read Dr H, Anja Beran, Baucher (both editions) and Phillippe Karl, as well as every study that has been brought to my attention so it's not as if I am not trying! Any suggestions on how I can acquaint myself with how the horse's body works? (please keep in mind that a vet degree may just be too tough to pull off).


----------



## Halfstep (31 August 2010)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			Thanks, I genuinely could not remember; though I still remember the article very well (I must still have it somewhere). Yes that specific article was more damning, but then again, in my humble opinion A. has been, on occasions, *extremely* unprofessional, I think this issue (the picture and caption) is just the proverbial last straw for AVG & SJ.
		
Click to expand...

I suppose the issue with Astrid is that her comments were presented as "reportage" on specific tests, rather than as op ed. 

For me, the issue is with the FEI's "new guidelines" which are hopelessly opaque, and I thought it was just a matter of time before a lawsuit resulted in one way or another. But I truly don't see what AVG and SJ have to gain on this one? They have demonstrated their system including LDR in public lots of times.  There are photos that were published in Horse and Hound and other publications of Anky riding at the Global Forum in LDR in 2007ish. There are videos all over the internet, and far, far more nasty commentary than Astrid's can be easily found.  I know that the Max-Theurer's had a case brought against Heuschmann about a photo of Vici that he used to demonstrate something he considered incorrect - this I can understand more, because he was selling a book and video on the back of it. Not sure what happened there, does anyone remember?


----------



## lillith (31 August 2010)

They aren't necesarily a non-bias site as it is obvious that the author has very strong views but http://www.sustainabledressage.net/ has a lot of information on why the author feels rollkur is wrong - it is a little lite on references for the physiological claims though.


----------



## Fairynuff (31 August 2010)

have to rush as I have to be somewhere else. Ive C and P'd this from FH...
 Home Scores News Reports Auctions Market Editorials NEWSLETTER: Sign Up / READ  
Home  Reports  Shows  Anky van Grunsven Sues Eurodressage
Anky van Grunsven Sues Eurodressage

Tue, 08/24/2010 - 23:10 

Anky van Grunsven and Salinero at the 2010 CDI-W 's Hertogenbosch 
Photo © Astrid AppelsDutch Dressage News 
The renowned dressage rider Anky van Grunsven feels defamed by equestrian journalist Astrid Appels of Eurodressage.com. According to Anky images of her horses can not be connected to the controversial rollkur training method. This is a system developed by Anky and her trainer and life partner Sjef Janssen in which the horse is bending its neck in an extreme way.

Following years of research and a conclusion by the International Equestrian Federation (FEI), the Dutch Equestrian Federation (KNHS) has decided in February that, as of today hyperflexion/rollkur is seen as an aggressive way of a deep moving horse. This is forbidden as well as any head-neck position which is obtained in an aggressive way. The LDR-method, on the other hand, obtains a deep bending of the neck without force and this is allowed.

Much has been written about this controversial system in combination with animal welfare. And so has journalist Astrid Appels who has paid attention to this topic on her website www.eurodressage.com. Through highly aggressive and intimidating emails Anky van Grunsven and Sjef Janssen have tried to prevent this, but Appels appeals to the freedom of speech and freedom of the press. 

In his correspondence Sjef Janssen has sworn at Appels like a sailor. A few quotes: 

You are a tiny miserable figure  
Youll be next  
Youre totally deranged  
Youre just pathetic  
You continue to be a super bitch  
you belong in line with the German journalist mafia 
Appels is shocked by these intimidating and slanderous remarks by the official team trainer of The Netherlands and considers taking necessary legal steps against this. 

This court case will start in s Hertogenbosch on 8 September 2010. 

Appels is represented by Mr. J.A. Weda and Mr. S. Wensing

Related Link
FEI Round Table Conference Resolves Rollkur Controversy
FEI Publishes Diagrams for Stewards Manual on Warm-Up Techniques

EURODRESSAGE on Television concerning Anky case: RTL Boulevard: Over 't Paard Getild

Hope it makes sense.


----------



## Halfstep (31 August 2010)

lillith said:



			They aren't necesarily a non-bias site as it is obvious that the author has very strong views but http://www.sustainabledressage.net/ has a lot of information on why the author feels rollkur is wrong - it is a little lite on references for the physiological claims though.
		
Click to expand...

The problem with sites like this one, and with the book by Gerd Heuschmann, and other similar websites, is that there simply isn't any research that demonstrates, using standard scientific principles, that rollkur or any of its cognomens, does cause damage to a horse, physically or psychologically. This does not mean that it doesn't cause damage (nor that it does), just that it has not been proven. And because it has not been proven, most of the commentary comes down to: "it looks awful, I don't like it", v.s. "look at how well x's horse has done, it must be fine to train like that". In other words, a discussion about anecdotal observations, personal preferences with an awful lot of emotion thrown in.


----------



## spaniel (31 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			I feel that responding to my ignorance by refusing to enlighten me and insisting I go off and do something else is a bit mean. I may be slow and require a bit of help, but be kind and share your insights.

For what it's worth I have followed up with all the suggestions I have had so far. I have gone off and read Dr H, Anja Beran, Baucher (both editions) and Phillippe Karl, as well as every study that has been brought to my attention so it's not as if I am not trying! Any suggestions on how I can acquaint myself with how the horse's body works? (please keep in mind that a vet degree may just be too tough to pull off).
		
Click to expand...

Booboos my comment was in no way an attempt to be mean I promise.  However what I didnt want to do was prattle on at great length and for it to not make much sense!  When I have some time in the next few days I will have a go at explaining what I feel happens to the structures when in a hyperextended state.


----------



## lillith (31 August 2010)

Sorry for double post but here is some more,

Part 1 http://web.me.com/equinesportsmed/Dr.Gellman/Publications_files/EqNuchalLig1.pdf
Part 2 http://web.mac.com/equinesportsmed/Dr.Gellman/Publications_files/EqNuchalLig2.pdf - some information on the nuchal ligament running down the back purported to be strained by rollkur, found that the ligament is very important in storing energy for locomotion and this use depends on head movement. 

http://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/dissertations/2007-0918-200827/c2.pdf
Rhodin - a PDF (hope the link works) - Study on the effect of head and neck positions on movement. 

http://diss-epsilon.slu.se:8080/archive/00001680/01/Rhodin_2008_1.pdf
Rhodin -  study shows that head and neck position do effect the movement of the back, especialy in walk. 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.1995.tb04883.x/abstract
Just the abstract but conclusions on the effect of head/neck position on airways. 

Just a few off google scholar, not saying which side they support but they have some information.

@ Halfstep - I know  That is my problem with the arguments, intsinctively I don't like Rollkur, however I don't like to spout off too much without a little more backup - hence the above bit of googling. I wont give my opinion as to what the articles back though as that is for people to decide themselves once they have read it. The pics on sustainabledressage get me a little - they come across as a very good argument but I can't find any reference where they got the physiological 'facts' from though.


----------



## Halfstep (31 August 2010)

Good googling Lilith! You've given me some evening reading!


----------



## Booboos (31 August 2010)

Spaniel: Many thanks, I look forward to that.

Lillith: thanks for these!
Gelman 1&2: I have to admit I don't understand these two and their implications for rollkur. They are quite technically demanding for me, anyone mind putting it in simpler terms for me?

Rhodin 1: this seems to suggest that hollow (position 5) is the problem which is interesting for the thousands of riders who ride with no contact. On the whole this doesn't seem negative towards rollkur, but have I missed the point?
(As an aside F persists in putting himself in position 3, despite my best efforts to encourage him to lengthen his neck...I have to make him read this article!  )

Rhodin dissertation: haven't read this one as it's huge, but will make my way to it in the next few days. It might make the implications of Rhodin 1 clearer for me.

Petsche: I have read the full text of this one and it is slightly misleading as it has nothing to do with rollkur. It demonstrates a respiratory problem with what we would call an "on the bit" position with the head on or slightly in front of the vertical as opposed to an extended position - a result that seems significant for race horses. If there is a problem here, then it applies to all dressage horses (or any other horse ridden on what we would all agree is the ideal position). (in terms of Rhodin's diagrams it's position 2 that they find problematic)


----------



## the_sophies (31 August 2010)

Lillith, thanks for the links!  

Some of the points which stood out for me:

http://diss-epsilon.slu.se:8080/arch...din_2008_1.pdf
'Horses worked regularly in (hyperflexion) develop a straight, flat back line, with inactive trailing hind legs and no noticeable flexion in the haunches during collection or extended movements. The trailing of the hind legs can be explained by the fact that the back fascia connects with the large muscle groups of the hind limbs (Fig. 9).'

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.1995.tb04883.x/abstract
'We conclude that during strenuous exercise head and neck extension has little effect on upper airway flow mechanics, but that head and neck flexion causes upper airway obstruction.'  Has this got anything to do with rollkur? I can't access the whole link so have just read the synopsis, unfortunately.

http://web.mac.com/equinesportsmed/Dr.Gellman/Publications_files/EqNuchalLig2.pdf
'Other functions of head position at the walk must be recognized.  These include such factors as retention of visual fields and vestibular orientation.'  

I do have a few queries regarding this study - is the author suggesting that when I ride my horses 'on the bit' (ie. slightly in front of the vertical) I am in fact contributing to skeletal damage by influencing head and neck movements?  Perhaps I have interpreted it totally inaccurately, it isn't the first time (!)

The first quote is a direct one from Dr H.  It is becoming more evident (to me, at least) that we are unlikely to get a definitive scientific study damning rollkur for some time.  It is enough for me to be comforted by general criticism it's use met with from the majority of respected, professional horse people.  We can only hope that international judges begin to start rewarding positively ridden and trained horses at the upper levels.


----------



## the_sophies (31 August 2010)

lillith said:



			"
5. In all the work, even at the halt, the horse must be on the bit. A horse is
said to be on the bit when the neck is more or less raised and arched
according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the pace,
accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. The
head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the
vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance
should be offered to the athlete."

From http://www.fei.org/sites/default/fi...GE/Rules/Dre_Rules-09_update2010_Black_DM.pdf - the official FEI rules.
		
Click to expand...

I love this!


----------



## the_sophies (31 August 2010)

Booboos said:



			I'm sorry, I am not explaining myself well here. So this study looks into whether horses have an aversion to being ridden in rollkur, and if they do presumably we will conclude that they shouldn't be ridden in rollkur. If there was a no ridding control group this would check whether horses also have an aversion to being ridden, and by the same logic we should conclude that horses should not be ridden at all.
		
Click to expand...

If this study was carried out, and it was concluded that horses had a _pain and fear_ response to being ridden, then yes, we should conclude that horses should not be ridden at all.  I'm sure that the majority of horse owners would stop riding their horses if they consistently exhibited a pain/fear response to being ridden. 

The study showed a pain and fear response to being ridden in rollkur.  Perhaps my use of the word 'aversion' was far too open to interpretation.


----------



## Seth (31 August 2010)

weird question maybe but is there 'proof' that working on the bit is best for a horse?


----------



## lillith (1 September 2010)

Glad to be of help, 

@Booboos - like I said it is for people to decide themselves whether the studies show up for or against (or irelevant to) rollkur, they are simply studies I felt had relevance to the discussion of head position. 

From #1 and #2 I got that the nuchal ligament - a ligament running down the spine which may people arguing against rollkur say is damaged by it (see sustainabledressage) is a flexible ligament which has elastic recoil properties which help an animal as big as a horse move with the minimum muscular effort and the movement of the head is vital to this - therefore preventing head movement would be an issue?

the_sophies picked out some good points from the other articles, the one about airway compromising/head position I thought was relevant because of the arguments that rollkur interfers with the breathing, I didn't have time to read it fully but it seems that head position in the less extreme 'on the bit' position effects resistance in the upper airways but not tidal volume so it can affect breathing but not hugely - it would be interesting to see a similar study on rollkur

@Seth - the studies on kinematics and head position indicated that an extremely high head position hollows the back and reduces stride length but I haven't actualy seen a study to show that hollowing the back weakens it, hmmm sill look into that. I got from them that a 'star gazing' position definately isnt good but whether 'on the bit' is genuinely better than relaxed head down I don't know. I have been told that a good western reiner will get it's weight off the forehand and use itself properly with the lower head stuck out position compared the the english ideal for up and on the bit so perhaps it is not required for engagement.


----------



## Booboos (1 September 2010)

lillith said:



			@Booboos - like I said it is for people to decide themselves whether the studies show up for or against (or irelevant to) rollkur, they are simply studies I felt had relevance to the discussion of head position. 

From #1 and #2 I got that the nuchal ligament - a ligament running down the spine which may people arguing against rollkur say is damaged by it (see sustainabledressage) is a flexible ligament which has elastic recoil properties which help an animal as big as a horse move with the minimum muscular effort and the movement of the head is vital to this - therefore preventing head movement would be an issue?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, of course, I was not suggesting you held any view, just wondering if any of this clarifies the rollkur debate. 

Thanks for this. 

QR: As far as I understand the study it seems to suggest that "The neck angle has important effects on the magnitude of strain energy on the NL: the larger the neck angle, the lower the head, and the more the NL is stretched." This supports Dr H's claim that young horses should be started long and low, but not for very long as the NL is stretched in this position (whether many people do 1.5 to 2 years of short long and low sessions though, I don't know).  

Again, as far as I can tell, this study doesn't really say anything about rollkur. Dr H's claim about the harm of rollkur is that it "puts enormous tension on the upper neck muscles and ligament system, and the back via the supraspinous ligament" (p.88 Tug of War).


----------



## lillith (1 September 2010)

Double posting please excuse, and it is a long one, found some more articles I thought were relevant, last one is very interesting. 

http://www.narcis.info/publication/RecordID/oai:dspace.library.uu.nl:1874/22858
-Only got access to summary
&#8220;In Chapter-2 it was shown that changes in the head-and-neck position influence back kinematics. Lowering the head-and-neck flexes the vertebral column, while it increases range of motion (ROM); by lifting the head-and-neck the column extends and ROM becomes reduced. It was concluded that the low position of the head-and-neck increase vertebral movement. On the other hand, an extremely high head-and-neck position provokes reduced movement and an extended posture of the back.&#8221;
-	Again no access to definition of &#8216;low&#8217; or &#8216;extremely high&#8217; but indicates that stargazing would reduce the range of motion (ROM) of the spine. 


http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...bodyId=&membershipNumber=&societyETOCSession= 
-	Full text.
Perhaps not entirely relevant but interesting that the use of the pessoa and side reins caused no increase in the use of the longissimus dorsi (long muscles running down the back) while lunging. Would perhaps suggest that fixing the head in an on the bit position does not affect the use of this particular muscle though the horses were not ridden and most arguments for on the bit are to do the horse&#8217;s ability to carry a rider rather than move without. 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.2746/042516409X394436/abstract
-	Abstract only
&#8220;The movements of the horse are significantly different when ridden on loose reins compared to the position used in collected trot. The exact degree of neck flexion is, however, not consistently correlated to the movements of the horse's limbs and trunk at collected trot. An extremely elevated neck position can produce some effects commonly associated with increased degree of collection, but the increased back extension observed with this position may place the horse at risk of injury if ridden in this position for a prolonged period.&#8221;

http://www.iceep.org/pdf/iceep3/_1130105534_001.pdf
-	Full text (pdf)
Study of the use of the neck muscles of the horse with and without a rider, shows that the muscles are used differently with a rider indicating that they are important in coping with the rider&#8217;s weight &#8211; whether this is affected by rollkur/head position is not covered though. 

http://knmvd.nl/uri/?uri=AMGATE_7364_1_TICH_R41001038475199
-	Full text (PDF)
&#8220;Workload and stress in horses: comparison in horses ridden deep and round (&#8216;rollkur&#8217 with a draw rein and horses ridden in a natural frame with only light rein contact&#8221;
&#8220;Workload (as measured by heart rate and blood lactate concentration) was slightly higher when horses were ridden &#8216;rollkur&#8217; than when they were ridden &#8216;free&#8217;. There were no differences in packed cell volume, or glucose and cortisol concentrations. No signs of uneasiness or stress could be determined when the horses were ridden
&#8216;rollkur&#8217;. Subjectively, all horses improved their way of moving during &#8216;rollkur&#8217; and were more responsive to their rider.&#8221;
-	Interesting- one that says it may not be so bad.

I can't find anything about the long term affects at the moment though.

@booboos - exactly why I said the site was a good place to read the arguments but very lite on the references, I have no idea where that claim came from and can't find any studies


----------



## Mearas (2 September 2010)

Thank you to everyone who has made this thread such fascinating and informed debate and I certainly bow to the superior knowledge of other contributors to this forum. But Rollkur always appears to draw attention to the head and neck position, which in many respects is the last thing that should be considered.  The horses head should hang lightly, softly and swing from the poll, this is a product of the action of the hind legs and something that simply cannot be achieved by Rollkur.

Any good training method must be suitable for ALL horses and although I have no experience nor would I wish to of Rollkur, I cannot see how this technique would work on anything other than a very strong forward going horse?


----------



## Booboos (3 September 2010)

Mearas said:



			Thank you to everyone who has made this thread such fascinating and informed debate and I certainly bow to the superior knowledge of other contributors to this forum. But Rollkur always appears to draw attention to the head and neck position, which in many respects is the last thing that should be considered.  The horses head should hang lightly, softly and swing from the poll, this is a product of the action of the hind legs and something that simply cannot be achieved by Rollkur.

Any good training method must be suitable for ALL horses and although I have no experience nor would I wish to of Rollkur, I cannot see how this technique would work on anything other than a very strong forward going horse?
		
Click to expand...

Out of interest just repeating what AVG said at the BD convention a couple of years ago:
- rollkur is not suitable for all horses, one must use the method which is most suited to that particular horse, its strengths and weaknesses. At the time I believe she said that she did not use it on Painted Black, nor did she ride him in rollkur (although I don't know what she may have done before/since).
- she also repeated very strongly that the back end must be really engaged for rollkur to work and the energy must come from behind. She said the method is open to abuse if not done correctly with a lot of power from behind. The horse she did demonstrate rollkur on (sorry can't remember its name) was, to my eyes, working from behind and seemed very powerful.

I think on these points I do agree with her, one method does not suit all horses/riders and any method can be abused in the wrong hands.


----------



## Dobby (4 September 2010)

Interesting points from both sides in this thread.

Thought I would just link to this video of Anky herself "explaining" this 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svOBsSdjUvU&feature=related

As you can tell she doesn't seem to know much about the technical details herself rather than she varies how long she does it to keep things varied in the training. In her own words - time flies when you're having fun!

From seeing this video it is clear she doesn't seem to know the ins and outs herself. She does not know how long she stays hyperflexed for, and her logic is that it doesn't matter anyway because her horses are top sports horses and are just a total different species to other horses.

And as for her throwaway explanation that "if a horse doesn't want to do something, it won't do it", well - that's excellent reasoning Anky, really top class.


----------



## Mearas (4 September 2010)

For me this is why this system fails on so many levels. Firstly, I love classical dressage, correctly taught it is a system that is suitable and achieves results in ANY horse. One of the problems with a system like Rollkur, it seems to me, that it was designed to achieve results in the Competition Arena? This seems to negate everything for me that dressage is. 
Dressage Competition was originally organised to test the way that the training of a horse was progressing, irrespective of its breeding, confirmation etc. It was the quality of the training that was being assessed, eg. the rider not the horse. With the introduction of the Kur, more extravagent, crowd pleasing, movement was desired and it would appear at the expense of the horses training.  Some would say this is progress???


----------

