# Do You Smack your horse?



## Dizzy socks (12 January 2013)

Just querying...

In what situations would you hit a horse?


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## Montyforever (12 January 2013)

I'll only hit her if she's behaving dangerously. Either to herself or me, for example if she was messing around while being led down a road, rearing up at me, prancing about on ice (she learnt that the hard way unfortunately by falling over!) it's never particularly hard or more than once and I very rarely do, but I'd much rather see her get a tap than have her jump out in front of a car. 
Usually I'm just firm but fair, she was trying to kick me while I was brushing the mud of her legs yesterday and she never ever even lifts her legs usually so I just brushes imaginary mud until she got bored and stopped


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## AMW (12 January 2013)

Agree with Monty, im firm but fair. I have mainly youngsters & i expect manners. I cant be doing with bolshy animals. They do get cuddles too


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## glamourpuss (12 January 2013)

Rarely now. The old lad is a gent to handle so definitely not needed there. The young lad came to me with a variety of dangerous handling habits eg/ rearing up & boxing at you,snaking & shaking his head trying to dominate you, kicking out. I've got 2 children & this could not be tolerated, so for a short time he got a fair few whallops. They weren't 'taps' if the situation warrants me to hit a horse then I bloody well want it to register with them, thank you very much (dons flame retardant suit)
Now, I'm glad to say the behaviour has stopped & he is very good to handle. He certainly isn't afraid of me. If anything he is calmer & happier because instead of stressing about dominating me he knows to take his lead from me  
The pony is an angel. I don't think she's ever had a smack the years she's been with me. In fact if you raise your voice to her she acts like you've ruined her week!


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## Ella19 (12 January 2013)

Yes, they kick each other to tell each other off. If she's about to barge over me, hit me round the head with her head etc then yes. My gosh if I hadn't told her off over the years I would have a nightmare horse, she's a give an inch take a mile. She us 100 times better behaved now and rarely a bad word said to her but aged 5-6 she was awful as people had let her get away with things before that.


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## Hoof_Prints (12 January 2013)

i have only ever smacked a horse when he threatened me with his teeth- gave him a tap on the nose . No where near enough to hurt him but just tell him off, he never attempted it again  My horses have never given me another reason to smack them so far... but I would if need be and it wasn't going to reinforce a negative reaction (eg hitting a horse for spooking as I see many people do!)


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## niagaraduval (12 January 2013)

I agree, I have no problem hitting mine (not beating him and never more than once) if he is putting himself or me in  danger. I think it's the right thing to do for both horse and rider.


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## Dizzy socks (12 January 2013)

niagaraduval said:



			I agree, I have no problem hitting mine (not beating him and never more than once) if he is putting himself or me in  danger. I think it's the right thing to do for both horse and rider.
		
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I also agree.


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## russianhorse (12 January 2013)

Yeah occasionally, if he deserves it


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## Theocat (12 January 2013)

Yes, whenever i need to, which as a result is hardly ever. I'd give a hard smack for something like trying to kick.


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## Brightbay (12 January 2013)

No, I don't smack horses.

I will take whatever action necessary to keep myself safe in an emergency situation, although in the rare event that something happens, it would normally be big body language before I ever make contact.

I wouldn't hit a horse as a deliberate punishment - which is my interpretation of a "smack"


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## Cortez (12 January 2013)

I hit them with a whip if they warrant it. Havn't had to hit anything for years, but will if they need it. I also carry a whip when schooling but wouldn't hit a horse then, just a tap to "quicken" an aid, but again rarely use.

You can "body l;anguage" all you like, if a horse is trying to bite, kick, barge or otherwise damage you a quick wallop will get his attention.


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## MrsNorris (12 January 2013)

Very occasionally, if he is bargy at the gate coming in, doesn't happen often, but when it does, I have to be firm as he was very bargy and rude when I first got him, and I don't want a him to revert to that. 
Other than that, the odd tap with a schooling whip when he's not listening when ridden.


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## MileAMinute (12 January 2013)

Yep. My 4yo had poor handling as a foal and knows no boundaries. He will regularly try and squash you against a wall or barge out of his stable and shouting at him falls on deaf ears.

It's dangerous behaviour and I'm lucky he's only small. Any bigger and I'd have been toast. There were a few times I've been against the wall and unable to breathe.

However now, a tap on his chest accompanied with a voice aid gets the job done. 

He's actually a lot better now he has consistency and whilst I've been in hospital, Moomin1 on here has reported back he will now move back in his stable on voice commands alone which I'm estatic with


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## Littlelegs (12 January 2013)

I can't even remember the last time I even mildly raised my voice to mine, she doesn't need it, she has manners to burn. 
  Usually with other horses I find a large 'oy' & confident body language prevents the majority of bad behavior occurring in the first place. I have hit or kicked back immediately as a response to a horse attempting to do the same to me, but its more in the manner of making them get out of my space & back away than a punishment for having done it.


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## Rosiejazzandpia (12 January 2013)

Only when necessary. Usually only if she isnt listening to the tone of my voice or being dangerously silly. I dont believe in smacking when not needed as both mine are usually very good both to ride and handle


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## Rosiejazzandpia (12 January 2013)

I usually find that "oy" or "ehh" works well with my horses.


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## Sprocket123 (12 January 2013)

If she warrents a smack then yes. Firm but fair. Otherwise she would be a right nightmare to handle! 
I got kicked a few weeks ago by a another horse it just reversed into me from behind (it is a evil witch, it will target you in the field). And yes it got a smack back. If i hadnt of reponsed ill probaly would have been a very nasty incident.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (12 January 2013)

Yep if in danger of hurting me and not paying attention or if actually hurting me say bite or kick them yep definately. You cant hurt a horse with your hands or feet as much as they can hurt each other IMO.


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## Love (12 January 2013)

With my 5yo I can get a away with a loud sharp "ah ah!" most of the time. He can however be a bit handy with his teeth, in which case he will get a tap on the nose. The thing is now he knows he is wrong when he bites so it takes nothing much. It used to be more of a problem when he was younger. I have only ever really walloped him twice, once when I went to go in his stable and he pretty much walked over the top of me to barge out and another time when he went to kick me. I can safely say he hasn't ever done those again!


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## Daytona (12 January 2013)

Yes I give my 5 year old a slap if he is rude, try's to bite or something like that.  As its best nipped in the bud straight away I won't tolerate bad manners

Ride wise I do carry a whip some times if he being lazy , ask with leg if no response ask again with a tap of the whip to back it up.  Never used a whip to hit him hard and never would, but he not really the horse that does much wrong a laid back type.


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## Sprocket123 (12 January 2013)

It probaly* - fat fingers and small buttons dont mix  sorry!


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## Clodagh (12 January 2013)

My riding horse is neurotic about whips to the extent that if you ride him carrying one he is a nervous wreck and wouldn't be capable of doing a thing. If he is a plank just a growl scares the poop out of him so I would gain little with hitting him.
My 2 year old gets an elbow if he forgets his manners and tries to bite being led out to the field but I have never full on hit him.
The old coldger needs a whack sometimes to get him out of everyones face, and I don't think he even notices it!
Horses for courses. I would hit if they kicked at me or did anything unacceptable.


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## bubbilygum (12 January 2013)

Occasionally I will give mine a quick thwack on his side with the lead rope when he is dragging me along doing his best lawnmower impression when I'm turning him out... That said its more of an "OI! I'm here you know" than anything that would hurt/scare him. Ill try to pull his head up first but even with my whole body weight pulling against his head he will often carry on eating.

He's also had a smack on the neck with a crop for dragging me down his neck eating whilst out hacking. Again, not a 'beating', more of a quick reminder that its not appropriate to behave like that.

He's a tank though (a greedy tank), if I didn't give him a smack in these situations I would be dragged along while he eats all the time! I would never 'beat' my horse, but he is a big animal and sometimes a physical reminder that I am there is necessary, for his safety as well as mine!


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## Ahrena (12 January 2013)

If they warrant it, yes.

It's very rare for them to be smacked on the ground as both have good manners but if one should try to bite/kick then they will get a smack, and not a soft one either. It's so rare that when i do hit them, they know I mean it. Barging doesn't normally get a smack as i find backing them up works better with mine. Well 1 never ever barges, the other is led in a dually head collar so when she has a moment she just needs reminding to get out my space.

Under saddle, 1 is ridden with a schooling whip for flat and hacking and he will get a flick if he gets behind my leg and doesn't respond to it. I carry a short whip for jumping but rarely use it, as 99% of the time, if he stops which is rare anyway, it's my fault.

The other is ridden with a whip whop rope as she hates whips and that works a treat (had a lot of problems in the past). If she even thinks about napping or rearing (and doesn't off my leg instantly) I use that, as she has had serious problems and sometimes I need to re-enforce it s NOT acceptable, under ANY circumstances. It sends her forwards and it works. Then she gets a pat and we getmon with our day


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## riding_high (12 January 2013)

my horse has probably only been smacked maybe 4 times in 7yrs, each of those times was because he had totally switched off to me being there and would walk over the top of me or something similar, a smack on his chest got his attention again and we were safe.
one of my ponies has only been smacked when he's gone to attack either a small animal or child, he's now very good with all that and works better with praise than a smack.

another of my ponies has been smacked a few times, he is a bargy cob type, he gets on his toes when being led to go do work and then spins round you and kicks out, i will smack him for that but as soon as he's listening/standing still/walking nicely i will praise him so he does know why he's been told off.


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## GlamourPuss86 (12 January 2013)

When I first had my old horse, long since outgrown and with another family, he had revolting stable manners. 
Pulling faces I can deal with, lunging at me over the door as i walked past (he was a ruddy ninja! :O) i wasn't going to put up with, a firm no wasn't working so one day as he came with teeth flying he got a smack round the chops, not enough to hurt him but enough that he was shocked.

Never flew at anyone with teeth out again and apart from the odd time when he played up ridden and tried his luck he rarely had a smack.

There's a difference between giving a smack to discipline and beating your horse up. Ours were always well loved, cheeky horses but they knew where the line was and not to cross it.


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## GlamourPuss86 (12 January 2013)

I should add none of them have ever been scared by us, repeatedly hit or given  smack without good reason.

I like to ride with a schooling whip to reenforce


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## GlamourPuss86 (12 January 2013)

*ruddy phone! 3rd time lucky!*

My leg as i prefer to flick not smack and have strong legs anyway. always carry a whip out hacking but more for safety if i encounter a dog that takes a fancy and wants a chunk, i want something to defend my horse.and i with!


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## Slightlyconfused (12 January 2013)

When they try to nip me.....smack on nose

When they try to kick me(tho this is rare now as the little bleep bleep is playing in the field in the sky) I with kick back or smack.

Only the once and its quick and sharp to make my point.


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## PandorasJar (12 January 2013)

Montyforever said:



			I'll only hit her if she's behaving dangerously. Either to herself or me, for example if she was messing around while being led down a road, rearing up at me, prancing about on ice (she learnt that the hard way unfortunately by falling over!) it's never particularly hard or more than once and I very rarely do, but I'd much rather see her get a tap than have her jump out in front of a car. 
Usually I'm just firm but fair, she was trying to kick me while I was brushing the mud of her legs yesterday and she never ever even lifts her legs usually so I just brushes imaginary mud until she got bored and stopped 

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Absolutely agree with this.


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## Marydoll (12 January 2013)

Yes, of its needed and appropriate, theyre to big and strong to allow them to behave in a boshy dangerous manner putting themselves and others at risk.


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## moana (12 January 2013)

Occasionally - if warranted. Last resort though.


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## Pale Rider (12 January 2013)

Never, ever.

If you get bucked off or kicked or bitten, you obviously did something wrong, and that's just too bad. The horse, on the other hand, is never, ever wrong.-Ray Hunt.

Whatever situation you get into, you are responsible, if you get into a dangerous situation, thats your responsibility too, belting your horse is a cop out.- PR


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## Polos Mum (12 January 2013)

A smack (which I think is differnt to a hit) when a growel and then raised voice shout haven't worked.  It's a reminder that I am there and that he has to listen to me more than any sort of punishment.  
Given the force used when my boys play in the field I suspect I do little more than feel like a fly!


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## PandorasJar (12 January 2013)

Palerider. Whether my fault or not. I'd rather make a point (and as often smack my own leg/side as them as more about a noise getting attention or make a short sharp growl at them) than let a dangerous situation esculate. Regardless of responsibility I'd do what made it safe for the horse and I in that moment.
It's not a cop out to me and never done in anger and can count on one hand the number of times I've done so. It is also not used as a training method.


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## Wagtail (12 January 2013)

Yes but never with a raised hand. Usually with a well timed elbow or upwards flick with the back of the hand or end of the rope. I have quite recently changed my views on smacking, from believing it was always wrong, to realising that in some situations it's the only way. But never in temper and never repeated. Just one sharp smack.


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## Enfys (12 January 2013)

Brightbay said:



			No, I don't smack horses.

I will take whatever action necessary to keep myself safe in an emergency situation, although in the rare event that something happens, it would normally be big body language before I ever make contact.  I admire anyone who thinks about body language when a horse is coming at them with teeth bared and ears pinned!  I certainly don't think about facing down a horsethat wants to flatten me in a politically correct manner.  If that happens, and it has, then I protect myself with whatever I have to hand, be that a feed bowl or a piece of 2 by 4. I just want to get out in one piece, I don't care how I do it. 

I wouldn't hit a horse as a deliberate punishment - which is my interpretation of a "smack"  I would, have and will if the situation warrants it, it very rarely does. I had a cracking LR pony that was a real character who took a chunk out of my leg, so I 'smacked' him, for the rest of his time with us - years - he was an angel, children's ponies especially cannot be permitted to take liberties when it is clear that that is exactly what they are doing. 

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There are situations where extreme action is required. Normally an "Oi you sod" does the job. I don't whip or beat my horses, I don't even *own* a whip!


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## amandap (12 January 2013)

If a horse was running at me with bared teeth, I'd leg it.  Then have a good think what on earth provoked it, make a plan and probably get professional help if I couldn't find a safe way to get nearish the horse to start interacting with it without having a chunk taken out of me.

If any of my horses ran at me with bared teeth I think I would die of shock.


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## poiuytrewq (12 January 2013)

I have smacked horses at work when they have bitten or kicked at me. I have also smacked one of my own- he came back off loan a Bolshy strong rude sh** so yes he gets a smack. The other two I'd never smack even if they gave me reason as they are sensitive little souls!


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## Sukistokes2 (12 January 2013)

Every one is different, this thread clearly shows that!  I will slap with my hand, like today while he was being clipped ( not while the clippers were on him) when he slammed his nose in to my chest because we asked him to stop eating for a minute. Making your point is one thing, beating is another.


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## whoatherejig (12 January 2013)

I used to ride a dealers horses, and have defended myself in dangerous situations, (we had one horse that you had to take a pitchfork in to the field or he would attack!), and I would rather give a tap behind my heels than keep niggling a lazy or nappy pony.
Having said that, I would never hit the naughty rhino, as he has been abused at some point, and we couldn't even touch his head at first. He still flinches at sudden movements. He's not scared of a whip when I ride, and I carry one to help get rid of flies in the summer, and to point out in the road if cars come too close.


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## Alyth (12 January 2013)

Personally I like to see what happens before the behaviour that warrants a smack happens....and do less sooner.  Most humans miss the lead up to the kick, bite or attack....but then I have never had to deal with a rogue......


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## horseluver4eva (12 January 2013)

Yes, not nastily just a tap over the nose. However i only do this when she is being naughty, for example when she is in the stable and im tacking her up or picking her hoofs out and she tries to bite me ill give her a tap, shes a fast learner and without discipline she would be a nightmare! but now if i just look at her and raise my hand she stop because she knows she is doing wrong. But i would never hurt her im firm but fair.


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## Heilo (12 January 2013)

PandorasJar said:



			Palerider. Whether my fault or not. I'd rather make a point (and as often smack my own leg/side as them as more about a noise getting attention or make a short sharp growl at them) than let a dangerous situation esculate. Regardless of responsibility I'd do what made it safe for the horse and I in that moment.
It's not a cop out to me and never done in anger and can count on one hand the number of times I've done so. It is also not used as a training method.
		
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I have to agree. I will smack any horse when needed. Firm but fair as they say


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## Spring Feather (12 January 2013)

I very rarely smack my horses, maybe one or two horses get a thump a year.  I do insist on good manners though and I've found my horses are quick to learn them.  I deal with many youngsters from birth and I have to say they're all great!  It's like they're born knowing to behave   It's rare for any of my older horses to get bolshy but if they do then yes I'll give them a thump and then move on.


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## Kikke (12 January 2013)

I am almost sorry to say but yes I will. Mine will walk all over anybody that gives her an inch. So she needs putting in place. Having said that, when she is good she will be rewarded very well!! It's a difficult one because our gelding is a saint in general and has been beaten when he was a baby so I would not dare to smack him. But my mare without any doubt, when necessary. She is such a cheeky little b****r nd I must admit she goes much better with praise but O do not accept any nonsense.


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## Rose Folly (12 January 2013)

No, don't have to , as I've a very ?? l don't know what to call it, voice. (E.g. when I used to go to dog training the instructor said that when I called 'Come' every dog in the class tried to come to me). It's nothing clever as I certainly didn't learn it - it's just there. So I think when I sound 'cosy' to  horse (or dog) I sound VERY cosy. When I sound cross I sound VERY cross. I only rebuke my horse /  my liveries by voice. They always stop what they're doing at once. So I've never had to hit a horse - the voice hits them for me! Sounds daft when it's typed out.............ps It works on people too, but not, for some strange reason,  on my OH!


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## Daisy2 (13 January 2013)

No smacking.. if they do anything out of the blue that is bad manners, I usually back them up really vigorously, they really don't like it and get the message


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## diamonddogs (13 January 2013)

Rarely, but yes I do.

Sham very very occasionally gets a bit nippy, so if she comes at me she'll get a slap on the nose and a sharp "No bites!" as long as I'm quick - a second too slow and she won't make the connection. Which is very important as she was very headshy when I first got her from the abuse she received from the person her previous owner got her from.

She's also very whip-shy, so I've never hit her with a whip even when riding, though I've worked hard to desensitise her. She accepts the whip as a pointing device, that's all. I can't even use the lead rope on her if she gets above herself because she'd be a bigger danger if she panicked.


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## Devonshire dumpling (13 January 2013)

I don't need to as Freddie is beaten daily by the 2 mares he lives with  (senior mares) he's not even allowed to walk up to the gate or be bargy, they reprimand any bad behaviour what so ever, he's got to stand still and patiently when it's in time... if he does anything rude to me, I wouldn't hesitate to give him a quick growl and a smack with my hand, hes 15.2 and 500kg and 2.5, I won't allow him to push me even playfully!


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## Pale Rider (13 January 2013)

This 'firm but fair' business is a load of old tosh.

Reading some of these posts, the horse is giving some feed back about something that is concerning him and gets a firm but fair crack for it. Gawd help us.


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## Dizzy socks (13 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			This 'firm but fair' business is a load of old tosh.

Reading some of these posts, the horse is giving some feed back about something that is concerning him and gets a firm but fair crack for it. Gawd help us.
		
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So... If a horse was spoilt as a youngster, and then tries to bite you, you wouldn't reprimand it?


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## Pale Rider (13 January 2013)

Dizzy socks said:



			So... If a horse was spoilt as a youngster, and then tries to bite you, you wouldn't reprimand it?
		
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I do lots of things, but spoiling youngsters isn't one of them.


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## callmelucky (13 January 2013)

yes. i smack my horses if they are naughty. at the end of the day, i dont want to get hurt by a half ton horse, so if shes bad she gets a slap. i got her as an unhandled 3yo, she got a few smacks when i first got her but shes so good now i hardly ever need to give her a smack. i was strict with my yearling from the moment she was born, she got off with nothing. as a result i now have a yearling who is as good as gold and i get endless comments on how well behaved she is. my mare is also very well behaved. i nipped things in the bud from day one of having them both so as a result i have two very well behaved horses who hardly ever need told off.


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## PandorasJar (13 January 2013)

Pale rider. I have used a whip once on a horse ever. I carried as was on roads and was a share horse who had a whip out on roads. I used it when we were rounding a corner and she decided to freeze. Rather than see what was concerning her and wait for a car to come round the corner I used the whip to get her onto the straight verge before turning off, so we would be seen while she took in the farm to the right which had caught her attention. While I wouldn't have done this on a hack, in that moment she put herself and me in a dangerous situation. I still maintain that there is a time and a place.
The farm was on the bridleway we were turning down so I then let her have a nosy. My fault or not, it would have been far more than a tap she got if a car had come round that corner.

As I say personally I wouldn't use it as a training method but I do believe there are situations which warrant it for the horses and my safety


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## Pale Rider (13 January 2013)

PandorasJar said:



			Pale rider. I have used a whip once on a horse ever. I carried as was on roads and was a share horse who had a whip out on roads. I used it when we were rounding a corner and she decided to freeze. Rather than see what was concerning her and wait for a car to come round the corner I used the whip to get her onto the straight verge before turning off, so we would be seen while she took in the farm to the right which had caught her attention. While I wouldn't have done this on a hack, in that moment she put herself and me in a dangerous situation. I still maintain that there is a time and a place.
The farm was on the bridleway we were turning down so I then let her have a nosy. My fault or not, it would have been far more than a tap she got if a car had come round that corner.

As I say personally I wouldn't use it as a training method but I do believe there are situations which warrant it for the horses and my safety
		
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Yes, lots of people say that.


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## glamourpuss (13 January 2013)

Pale Rider do you practise the sanctimonious tone to your posts or does it come naturally?

Yes, firm but fair is how I deal with my horses. They are large animals that if they don't respect you can & will hurt you. You can harp on about the wonderful bond you have with your horse...bitless riding it with the power of your mind & only ever communicating with it by beautiful chanting. Lovely. Not for me thanks.

I do NOT beat my horses. If they take their lead from me - as they would in the herd then their life is lovely with cuddles, kisses & copious praise.
If they attempt to challenge my leadership then they are reprimanded in some way. Minor offences this can be a sharp 'No!' Or a change in my body language. However things that could endanger myself or my children will be given something more severe.
In the instance of the horse I have. He came to me having been totally spoilt by a novice owner. He was a danger. He was totally dominant, if there was something he didn't want to do which usually was be caught or lead in he put me in danger.
You know what? You can harp on & on about what you would've done BUT it was a situation where he needed to quickly learn that this was not acceptable. Just as in a herd a young horse would be put back in place with a swift boot from a hoof he got a whallop from me. He learnt. His behaviour has improved. This is now a happy horse who can be lead around by a 7 year old child


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## Pale Rider (13 January 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			Pale Rider do you practise the sanctimonious tone to your posts or does it come naturally?)
		
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Its all natural, lol.


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## Moggy in Manolos (13 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			This 'firm but fair' business is a load of old tosh.
		
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Totally disagree with this /\

My motto is pretty much to be firm but fair when needed. I will give a smack if needed, end of, I do not do it without a good cause. I do not see the firm but fair rule as a load of old tosh either, but you have your opinion and I have mine...


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## maisie06 (13 January 2013)

Yes - when they get disrespectful or get into my space. 500kgs of horse is not going to get away with pushing me around and having no comeback!! Have you seen how horse's reprimand each other when they overstep the mark? A good kick or a bite, I don't think my pathetic little smack is going to hurt as much as another horse!  I start with a growl and a bit of body language and if that is ignored a smack is in order. 
I very rarely have to smack any of mine - I am proud to say they have great manners and are lovely to be around, due to having boundries, leadership and respect.


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## Starbucks (13 January 2013)

I don't carry a stick so not generally - he doesn't really do stuff wrong that a smack would help.

Although!  He booted another horse out hunting and I grabbed a stick off someone else and he got a smack for that, might have been a bit late but I hate it when people do nothing!

He'll get a slap and a shout if he's pratting about with the hose pipe etc. but otherwise he doesn't get in troubs.


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## AdorableAlice (13 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I do lots of things, but spoiling youngsters isn't one of them.

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Am I the only one, after reading some of PR's posts on various subjects, beginning to doubt if PR actually keeps horses ?  There is something not quite right.  That is cyberspace I guess.


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## Dizzy socks (13 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I do lots of things, but spoiling youngsters isn't one of them.

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Wait..so you have bred all your horses? Or you have just only ever bought perfect ones?


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## muckypony (13 January 2013)

Again, yes - when needed. My current ones are just foals and they only time they've been told off is for biting (gentle tap on the nose and a stern 'no'), kicking (smack on the bum, one got a broom up his arse, hasn't dared since!) and sometimes they will not move over when I ask, so get a push in the side! Although sometimes I don't think they even feel it through their coats 

With my last pony, they only time she got a smack was when she bit (very rare, always happened when doing the front of her rugs up).

I think its quite important to use a stern voice with them more often than hitting, I've always found they respond well to that. But I smack mine when they deserve it at the moment. They're shetland colts and I absolutely do not want them thinking that they're more superior than me, but I think it depend son the situtation - the other night one of them went to bite me while I gave the other a fuss in the stable (jealous!) I gave him a sharp tap on the nose and a stern 'no' and he just put his ears back at me and turned his bum! Cue being marched out of the stable backwards and tied up outside on his lonesome!

Its all depending on the situation and horse, I think sometimes smacking can make them more aggressive so another method should be used, but I don't disagree with a smack every now and then. After all, if they kicked/bit/barged another horse, they'd get a lot worse back!


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## Pale Rider (13 January 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			Am I the only one, after reading some of PR's posts on various subjects, beginning to doubt if PR actually keeps horses ?  There is something not quite right.  That is cyberspace I guess.
		
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I could be a Troll.

LOL.


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## DosyMare (13 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I do lots of things, but spoiling youngsters isn't one of them.

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You didn't actually answer the question on how you would handle a spoilt youngster?


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## Pale Rider (13 January 2013)

DosyMare said:



			You didn't actually answer the question on how you would handle a spoilt youngster?
		
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Young horses try things out with their teeth, they are just being curious really. You should never knock the curiosity out of a young horse, so hitting and slapping is out.

'Spoilt' could mean anything, everyone has different ideas about whats spoilt. Most people cannot bring up a horse without making a pigs ear of it, when its at its most impressionable, they turn it away for a couple of years and ignore it.

Be appropreate with youngsters, don't let them invade your space and they cannot bite you. You don't have to belt them to keep them out of your space, if you don't know how, learn.


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## glamourpuss (13 January 2013)

Youngsters do try things out with their teeth that is true. In fact my 18 year old is still mouthy & likes to catch hold of things in his gob. This is very different from a nip or a bite....& given how experienced you put yourself as being you should know this. So how do you deal with a youngster who has started nipping? Your post suggests that you just ignore it, its just a youngster trying things out with it's mouth,lovely. So it escalates to biting...what do you do then? This is a serious question. Please don't be disparaging about how we handle our horses unless you are prepared to 'educate' us to your *better* way.

You say that we should keep them out of our space without hitting. Can I ask how you would handle this situation.
16.3 TB, last chance saloon for being dangerous. If you go to catch him from the field he rears up at you & attempts to box at you with his front legs. Leading in he snakes his head at you & lunges at you. He has learnt that this behaviour has allowed him to be released to go where he wants so even if you adopt dominant body language or use a firm voice with him does not make him back down.
So really, please inform me where I went wrong & how I should've handled him?


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## Pigeon (13 January 2013)

He's ticklish and I've smacked him once or twice when I've been putting his rug on and he's kicked at me. Tbh I don't think smacking a horse with your hand is going to do it that much damage  Wouldn't hit him with a stick unless I wanted to be chucked off.


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## windand rain (13 January 2013)

Littlelegs said:



			I can't even remember the last time I even mildly raised my voice to mine, she doesn't need it, she has manners to burn. 
  Usually with other horses I find a large 'oy' & confident body language prevents the majority of bad behavior occurring in the first place. I have hit or kicked back immediately as a response to a horse attempting to do the same to me, but its more in the manner of making them get out of my space & back away than a punishment for having done it.
		
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this 
I cant remember hitting any one of them for a very long time but have responded to being bitten or threatened with a kick with a slap of an open hand from time to time it is mostly the noise that startles them and I would never beat one or hit with a stick of any kind


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## Tickles (13 January 2013)

Never any more.

It isn't fun for me and I've never had great results with it that I couldn't have got being a better handler.

Would to prevent immediate danger to self/horse/another person/animal but have rarely been in such situations and not had another better option (e.g. sideways spook on road probably better dealt with by pushing onwards and back towards the side).


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## Pale Rider (13 January 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			Youngsters do try things out with their teeth that is true. In fact my 18 year old is still mouthy & likes to catch hold of things in his gob. This is very different from a nip or a bite....& given how experienced you put yourself as being you should know this. So how do you deal with a youngster who has started nipping? Your post suggests that you just ignore it, its just a youngster trying things out with it's mouth,lovely. So it escalates to biting...what do you do then? This is a serious question. Please don't be disparaging about how we handle our horses unless you are prepared to 'educate' us to your *better* way.

You say that we should keep them out of our space without hitting. Can I ask how you would handle this situation.
16.3 TB, last chance saloon for being dangerous. If you go to catch him from the field he rears up at you & attempts to box at you with his front legs. Leading in he snakes his head at you & lunges at you. He has learnt that this behaviour has allowed him to be released to go where he wants so even if you adopt dominant body language or use a firm voice with him does not make him back down.
So really, please inform me where I went wrong & how I should've handled him?
		
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Why is it when people have turned what was probably a nice young horse into a car crash they start asking people like me where they went wrong. I'm disparaging about how people handle horses because of posts like this. 

I certainly don't ignore anything, but I do less, sooner.

What your now talking about is a remedial project, which really needs to be seen.


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## DosyMare (13 January 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			Youngsters do try things out with their teeth that is true. In fact my 18 year old is still mouthy & likes to catch hold of things in his gob. This is very different from a nip or a bite....& given how experienced you put yourself as being you should know this. So how do you deal with a youngster who has started nipping? Your post suggests that you just ignore it, its just a youngster trying things out with it's mouth,lovely. So it escalates to biting...what do you do then? This is a serious question. Please don't be disparaging about how we handle our horses unless you are prepared to 'educate' us to your *better* way.
		
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Everyone knows how colts behaviour; mine was a big lad and he liked to play and he thought i was his plaything. I was told to act like his mother would and squee and stamp my feet at him, yeah this really didn't work on him. I was then told to not be in his way and avoid the situation, this didn't work either when I needed to turn him out and bring him in. I was then advised to use various head collars and halters which made him worse. 
So what do you do when a 15hh colt nips your arms then moves on to swinging down and biting your thighs and ever once bite someone on the head?
Not in anyway spoilt just a typical colt being a colt. 
I had a great lesson with a natural horseman halter to which he just reared continually and I'm not one for yackin and that messing around. 
We resulted in a plain old smack. I'm not by anyway saying I punched him or kicked him or slapped him round the nose. But firm and fair and learn some manners. If he bite/nipped or attempted to he got a firm NO and elbow in the chest when leading and when tied up or in stable a slap. But it does have to be instant so they relate the two not 3 minutes later.


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## spotty_pony (13 January 2013)

I can honestly say, I very rarely raise my hand to a horse (and even then it is just a firm tap on their shoulder.) I find raising my voice is much more effective as I am quite a quiet person and very calm around the horses usually, this really surprises them and makes them listen as it is rare that I raise my voice on the yard. Once I have reprimanded the horse with my voice, I will go back to my normal calm self and 9 times out of 10 the horse will never repeat what it did to cause me to shout.


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## Pale Rider (13 January 2013)

DosyMare said:



			So what do you do when a 15hh colt nips your arms then moves on to swinging down and biting your thighs and ever once bite someone on the head?
Not in anyway spoilt just a typical colt being a colt.
		
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Not being picky, but, why is he this close?


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## DosyMare (13 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Not being picky, but, why is he this close?
		
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Because your leading him from field to stable or because I'm grooming him or changing his rugs.


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## Pale Rider (13 January 2013)

DosyMare said:



			Because your leading him from field to stable or because I'm grooming him or changing his rugs.
		
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You need to learn to manage your personal space. You can invade his, but he cannot invade yours.

This is alot easier if you start properly rather than having to put things right.


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## glamourpuss (13 January 2013)

Pale Rider he was a remedial piece of work. One that I have completely straightened out thank you very much! 
I did it my way, it involved him getting a few smacks. I'm intrigued how you would've done it.


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## glamourpuss (13 January 2013)

FFS I'm outraged that you think I was the one that made the horse it was.
That horse is now happy & confident yet able to be led by a 7 year old!

You are not actually answering any questions here just diverting them. Answers like 'they should respect your space & you should respect theirs' is all well & good we all know that but how? How? 
How do you get the horse I mentioned in my post to respect my space?
I can tell you how I did it. I adopted a dominant body stance & eye contact, he got a sharp verbal warning & a shaking of the rope, if he still continued he got a sharp smack. This was hard enough to get a 'ooh that wasn't nice' reaction from him. I let that sink in. When he behaved & was caught nicely or led nicely he was praised copiously. He soon learnt that following my lead was a nice place to be


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## Pale Rider (13 January 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			Pale Rider he was a remedial piece of work. One that I have completely straightened out thank you very much! 
I did it my way, it involved him getting a few smacks. I'm intrigued how you would've done it.
		
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Well done you, what you asking me for then?


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## glamourpuss (13 January 2013)

...because I'm intrigued how you would've done it? 
I believe I was firm but fair with him. Earlier in the thread you said that people posting had no idea what Firm but fair was. So educate me, was I firm but fair with this horse,.... If not how would you have handled him differently?


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## DosyMare (13 January 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			...because I'm intrigued how you would've done it? 
I believe I was firm but fair with him. Earlier in the thread you said that people posting had no idea what Firm but fair was. So educate me, was I firm but fair with this horse,.... If not how would you have handled him differently?
		
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Palerider you give no examples or experiences and never answer the actual question. 
I therefore question if you have any experience with horses that have issues. 
Obv a well mannered horse does not require a smack and so it's lovely to see a majority that does not require a smack but there are a few that have not had the education that others have had therefore need to learn.


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## Pale Rider (13 January 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			FFS I'm outraged that you think I was the one that made the horse it was.
That horse is now happy & confident yet able to be led by a 7 year old!

You are not actually answering any questions here just diverting them. Answers like 'they should respect your space & you should respect theirs' is all well & good we all know that but how? How? 
How do you get the horse I mentioned in my post to respect my space?
I can tell you how I did it. I adopted a dominant body stance & eye contact, he got a sharp verbal warning & a shaking of the rope, if he still continued he got a sharp smack. This was hard enough to get a 'ooh that wasn't nice' reaction from him. I let that sink in. When he behaved & was caught nicely or led nicely he was praised copiously. He soon learnt that following my lead was a nice place to be 

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Sorry, I've just been falling about here, brilliant.

I'm not going to tell you I'd do this or that, because until I'd seen and worked with the horse I really don't know what approach I'd take.

I'm sure you're spectacularly dominant, lol,


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## Kallibear (13 January 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			Pale Rider he was a remedial piece of work. One that I have completely straightened out thank you very much! 
I did it my way, it involved him getting a few smacks. I'm intrigued how you would've done it.
		
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You're wasting your breathe ( fingers?!). Pale Rider NEVER shares his extensive wisdom, only states that everyone else is wrong  Im beginning to suspect AdorableAlice might be right!

Yes, I will smack occasionally for rudeness, bad manners or dangerous behaviour. It depends whether a smack or putting the fear of god into them with voice or body language is more appropriate. I very very rarely have to smack my own (Pink hasn't had a smack for years as she a gentle polite old soul. Roo has had three smacks in a year: one for biting, one for kicking out and one for rearing. He hasn't done any of those since. And Piper is just a star, always.) I have prob smacks other peoples rude horses more in the last year than I have my own.


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## Pale Rider (13 January 2013)

DosyMare said:



			Palerider you give no examples or experiences and never answer the actual question.
		
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All horses are different, they all need an individual approach. People who say do this or that are talking crap, you have to work in broad strokes when your just talking about things without seeing that actual horse. I don't give specifics because it would be wrong to do this.


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## Pale Rider (13 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			You're wasting your breathe ( fingers?!). Pale Rider NEVER shares his extensive wisdom, only states that everyone else is wrong  Im beginning to suspect AdorableAlice might be right!.
		
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Not everyone, I've never said everyone, just most.


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## burtondog (13 January 2013)

I have a 3 year old gelding who's a bit 'nippy'. I smack him if he manages to bite me (even though he's usually tied up). He doesn't do it too often and when I smack him I try to remember to just smack him on the neck or shoulder so he doesn't get headshy. He seems to understand he's done wrong and doesn't seem to stress about being told off in this way. 

Apart from the above I can usually deal with any other misbehaving by just 'growling' at him.

I do carry and if necessary use a whip when riding - does this count as smacking ?


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## mandwhy (13 January 2013)

My horse is quite sensitive to body language, voice and getting out of your space and whatnot, but sometimes she is a nobber and tries to bite me so I deflect her face with my hand and it turns into a slap if she is still coming towards me! I am more likely to direct an elbow so they bop their nose on it, or if barging will walk into it, but will do a smack if necessary. 

I had a horse on loan before who was just ridiculous with biting, considering this was about 6 months ago I still have a mark on my thigh where he bit me and I was absolutely covered in bruises. For a while I wouldn't smack him and tried everything else but I did eventually, fairly hard too, and he stopped, along with all the other dangerous things that had escalated from this behaviour. 

I do not approve of kicking a horse however, that is too much, unless you are really about to get flattened in which case do whatever you need to!


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## showpony (13 January 2013)

Honestly, I would only ever if it was a potentially dangerous situation. .  I do use schooling whip( a tickle to re-inforce leg aids but that's it. . My pet hate is watching people smacking the "crap" out of there horses on the show jumping circuit where 9 times out of 10 what they are smacking the horse for is the riders fault!


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## eatmyshorts (13 January 2013)

I use my whip (rarely) to back up my leg, if it is being ignored. I use my elbows & fingertips (eg. a poke in the nose if teeth are coming in my direction) to defend myself. I wouldn't say i smack as a punishment as such often at all.


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## lastchancer (13 January 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			...because I'm intrigued how you would've done it? 
I believe I was firm but fair with him. Earlier in the thread you said that people posting had no idea what Firm but fair was. So educate me, was I firm but fair with this horse,.... If not how would you have handled him differently?
		
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You won't get any advice from PR on how to actually do anything, just lots of barbed comments on how wrong you are... Incidentally I also wonder how his highness PR would have handled the 16hh thug that nearly flattened two young girls in our field yesterday, yes, yes it probably does have some reason for charging into people with his ears flat back, but that doesn't help the poor person on the receiving end now does it, but a stick might.


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## Pale Rider (13 January 2013)

lastchancer said:



			You won't get any advice from PR on how to actually do anything, just lots of barbed comments on how wrong you are... Incidentally I also wonder how his highness PR would have handled the 16hh thug that nearly flattened two young girls in our field yesterday, yes, yes it probably does have some reason for charging into people with his ears flat back, but that doesn't help the poor person on the receiving end now does it, but a stick might.
		
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People offer it up on a plate really. So you have a horse thats a bit of a thug in your field. Why let two young girls in there with it. Horses can be difficult, but with stupid people down right dangerous. Sort the horse out, if you can't pay someone who can. Keep vulnerable people out of its way till then. Some people need a stick across their own backside never mind the bloody horse.


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## lastchancer (14 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			People offer it up on a plate really. So you have a horse thats a bit of a thug in your field. Why let two young girls in there with it. Horses can be difficult, but with stupid people down right dangerous. Sort the horse out, if you can't pay someone who can. Keep vulnerable people out of its way till then. Some people need a stick across their own backside never mind the bloody horse.
		
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Not my horse, not aware of horse 'till today, not my yard, not my kids. If it were my kids/horse or yard then I would indeed stop them from going in with it. However, it's in with mine, and if a dangerous situation occurs where the horse has to have a clout or I get kicked, bitten or flattened then yes I'm afraid it will get one. BTW I'm not talking about a bit of a thug either, there are those that stomp about without really meaning any harm, and there are those that have learnt just how to use their size and power against people.
 Can't argue with the last sentence though


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## Pale Rider (14 January 2013)

lastchancer said:



			Not my horse, not aware of horse 'till today, not my yard, not my kids. If it were my kids/horse or yard then I would indeed stop them from going in with it. However, it's in with mine, and if a dangerous situation occurs where the horse has to have a clout or I get kicked, bitten or flattened then yes I'm afraid it will get one. BTW I'm not talking about a bit of a thug either, there are those that stomp about without really meaning any harm, and there are those that have learnt just how to use their size and power against people.
 Can't argue with the last sentence though 

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Sorry when you said 'our' field assumed you knew the horse.


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## Amaranta (14 January 2013)

I don't generally have to, but I did once smack my now 15yo.  When she was younger she was very protective of me and would guard me jealously.  I had a saddler out who also had an Iberian and she wanted to teach Spanish Walk.  I was showing her how to start the training so had a schooling whip in my hand.  The saddler started laughing because my horse was making faces at her every time she came near me, she then put her hand on my shoulder and my horse went straight for her teeth bared, without thinking I smacked her straight across the chest with the whip (the horse, not the saddler lol) if I had not she WOULD have taken a chunk out of the poor girl!  Totally unacceptable behaviour and she never did it again.

On the other hand I had a VERY dominant filly who challenged every single thing you asked of her, no point in smacking her, she would come straight back at you.  I spent a lot of time putting her in the 'naughty corner', using body language to establish MY space and backing her up whenever she was out of hand.  She turned into a lovely horse in the end, but it took some time!


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## _GG_ (14 January 2013)

Rose Folly said:



			No, don't have to , as I've a very ?? l don't know what to call it, voice. (E.g. when I used to go to dog training the instructor said that when I called 'Come' every dog in the class tried to come to me). It's nothing clever as I certainly didn't learn it - it's just there. So I think when I sound 'cosy' to  horse (or dog) I sound VERY cosy. When I sound cross I sound VERY cross. I only rebuke my horse /  my liveries by voice. They always stop what they're doing at once. So I've never had to hit a horse - the voice hits them for me! Sounds daft when it's typed out.............ps It works on people too, but not, for some strange reason,  on my OH!
		
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This made me laugh. I used to do behavioural rehab with dogs and am exactly the same with my voice. I have a naturally low tone, which when soft is very soothing but when projected can make the earth move without needing to even be loud. I was at a line in a Small Tesco a few years back and there were some young lads at the far end of the queue. There was a waist height rope acting as the barrier and when I got called to the farthest checkout, the lads snuck under the rope to get there first. I didn't even realise I was doing it, but my instant reaction was a quick, "AH" in the don't even think about it tone and they shot back under the rope and said sorry. They were terrified. I got a round of applause from the rest of the queue 

As for horses, I am the same. My voice does it all for me. I have given a sharp smack when needed, but it hasn't been often and is usually when a horse has developed a bolshy streak thanks to being spoiled and not having manners taught. 

I want safety. Pale Rider, I understand the whole, "don't get yourself in a situation" argument, but that doesn't work In reality. Take a horse that you find loose on the roadside, endangering itself by running in front of cars. I could ignore it as it could be nasty and cause me injury or the need to reprimand it....but I will never be a person that could leave a horse in danger. Better to catch it and give it a smack if it needs it in order to be safe than leave it to get horrendously hurt in an accident.

Do I like or ever want to physically reprimand a horse? No. But if it is absolutely needed and is done done in anger, frustration or hard or in a sensitive place then it can be very useful as a safety last resort or a training last resort for youngsters.

Again, nothing a horse wouldn't do to another horse. Blimey, if my little smack was as powerful as a horses kick or bite, I'd be in a circus.


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## Pale Rider (14 January 2013)

_GG_ said:



			As for horses, I am the same. My voice does it all for me. I have given a sharp smack when needed, but it hasn't been often and is usually when a horse has developed a bolshy streak thanks to being spoiled and not having manners taught. 

I want safety. Pale Rider, I understand the whole, "don't get yourself in a situation" argument, but that doesn't work In reality. Take a horse that you find loose on the roadside, endangering itself by running in front of cars. I could ignore it as it could be nasty and cause me injury or the need to reprimand it....but I will never be a person that could leave a horse in danger. Better to catch it and give it a smack if it needs it in order to be safe than leave it to get horrendously hurt in an accident.
		
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I am constantly astounded and amazed by the ingenuity and lengths people will go to in order to find a scenario which may justify giving a horse a smack.


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## jeeve (14 January 2013)

Smacking the horse is just a sign the owner/handler is frustrated. It achieves nothing with respect to training the horse and improving the safety/situation, or preventing a situation arising.

I know someone who used to hit her horse, (she told me this herself) but after years of NH, she now has two horses that are light, sensitive, a dream to handle and ride. (Both young horses). 

She was a 55 year old woman, who had been around horses her whole life, but until she did NH she still resorted to hitting out in frustration.


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## _GG_ (14 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I am constantly astounded and amazed by the ingenuity and lengths people will go to in order to find a scenario which may justify giving a horse a smack.

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I am continually amazed by the close mindedness of some people. It was said to get a reaction from you, it did. 

I read a post in this thread in which you say that you won't give specific advice because all horses are different. I agree that all horses are different. But, you have been asked questions about how you specifically deal with things.

Is there any chance you might give us a case history of a horse that you have worked with? Not advising any of us but an example of a horse that came to you less than perfect and how you dealt with that?

The best trainers in all spheres of horsemanship will back up their claims with evidence. I was questioned on here a while back about retraining my ex racer without a flash and with a soft contact...someone didn't believe it...so I posted a video of myself riding her to give evidence of what I do. 

Honestly Pale Rider...I genuinely want to believe all of the claims you make, but you make it difficult. You quote the parts of people's posts that allow you to pick them apart, rather than give constructive advice. 

I would be the happiest person in the world if nobody ever smacked a horse again, so if you know how to make that happen, why not educate us? You can't visit us all in person and you can't work with every horse, so if you are going to tell people they should do it another way and you know that other way, then you should develop a method of educating us.

Unfortunately, whilst you appear to be always on the side of doing the best for horses, your approach puts people off. 

Look at it this way. You want the best for horses, forget about point scoring with the people you disagree with. Instead, think of their horses and and how, if you help them, you are helping their horses.

If you judge and ridicule, you leave those horses receiving the same treatment you condemn. 

At the moment Pale Rider, while you consistently fail to actually give any evidence of your knowledge and skills in working with horses and fail to offer any advice on the correct training and handling techniques, you are simply a person at the end of a computer that nobody will take seriously.

I want everything you say to be true. If it is, I will happily learn from you. I am sure others would as well. But you have to be able to show that your way works and share that way with us if you want us to change our ways with our horses.

This is my girl with my other half....so completely trusting of humans now, because I have earned that trust. I have never hit her. Two years ago, she would have taken a chunk out of Dans face, now she falls asleep. Never a cross word or raised hand and I will gladly say how I did it...I used my voice and I never shouted. 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z_x0wYrkVr0

How do you do it?


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## Pale Rider (14 January 2013)

_GG_ said:



			I am continually amazed by the close mindedness of some people. It was said to get a reaction from you, it did. 

I read a post in this thread in which you say that you won't give specific advice because all horses are different. I agree that all horses are different. But, you have been asked questions about how you specifically deal with things.

Is there any chance you might give us a case history of a horse that you have worked with? Not advising any of us but an example of a horse that came to you less than perfect and how you dealt with that?

The best trainers in all spheres of horsemanship will back up their claims with evidence. I was questioned on here a while back about retraining my ex racer without a flash and with a soft contact...someone didn't believe it...so I posted a video of myself riding her to give evidence of what I do. 

Honestly Pale Rider...I genuinely want to believe all of the claims you make, but you make it difficult. You quote the parts of people's posts that allow you to pick them apart, rather than give constructive advice. 

I would be the happiest person in the world if nobody ever smacked a horse again, so if you know how to make that happen, why not educate us? You can't visit us all in person and you can't work with every horse, so if you are going to tell people they should do it another way and you know that other way, then you should develop a method of educating us.

Unfortunately, whilst you appear to be always on the side of doing the best for horses, your approach puts people off. 

Look at it this way. You want the best for horses, forget about point scoring with the people you disagree with. Instead, think of their horses and and how, if you help them, you are helping their horses.

If you judge and ridicule, you leave those horses receiving the same treatment you condemn. 

At the moment Pale Rider, while you consistently fail to actually give any evidence of your knowledge and skills in working with horses and fail to offer any advice on the correct training and handling techniques, you are simply a person at the end of a computer that nobody will take seriously.

I want everything you say to be true. If it is, I will happily learn from you. I am sure others would as well. But you have to be able to show that your way works and share that way with us if you want us to change our ways with our horses.

This is my girl with my other half....so completely trusting of humans now, because I have earned that trust. I have never hit her. Two years ago, she would have taken a chunk out of Dans face, now she falls asleep. Never a cross word or raised hand and I will gladly say how I did it...I used my voice and I never shouted. 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z_x0wYrkVr0

How do you do it?
		
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Nice post GG, we'll see.


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## Alyth (14 January 2013)

To me a smack can vary.  It can be delivered with anger (emotion) which doesn't achieve anything.  It can be delivered impartially as 'phase 4'.....after asking with increasing strength.....so as I said before, I like to see what is about to happen and nip it in the bud with a less violent, but still effective, correction......if a horse comes in too close can you ask it to go back away from you?  Can you increase the level of demand?  Without hitting it in the face with the clip?  Or without using the whip?  So imo having to smack a horse is only useful if you are actually training the horse....he needs to learn to respond to your cues before he gets to the smacking stage....and the human needs to be able to read the horses body language and anticipate what he is about to do and be able to shut down 'bad' behaviour...about the only exception to this is if you are handling a horse who is not yours....and you need to defend your space.... but again that is the horse owners fault for not teaching the horse his boundaries.....I must also say that often the handler is at fault for smacking a horse un-necessarily, when his behaviour does not deserve a smack or whip hit, a minor misdemeaner does not deserve a smack or whip hit.....simply a correction - for instance back a few steps, or move him around a bit....and it is interesting to see how few people can actually ask and get specific movements from their horse while they (the human!) is on the ground.....


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## tallyho! (14 January 2013)

No I just use telepathy. I speak horse fluently and so I reason with them in this way.

Even my yearling who  has previously tried to leap over me gets a sit down and a talking to. I often find a bunch of flowers waiting for me by the door in the morning and a thank you note.


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## ShadowFlame (14 January 2013)

I have no issue in smacking when the situation calls for it. Any "nasty" behaviour (i.e. barging, kicking, biting) will gain one.

Your horse is not a child. It's half a ton of animal. It's no fun having something that size with no manners. In a herd environment, if a horse steps out of line it will be bitten / kicked. A smack (I'm not talking about beating, here - that's a different kettle of fish) isn't on the same scale, and I don't understand people having issues with it?


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## Nightmare before Christmas (14 January 2013)

Not so much on the ground unless they have kicked out at me or reared at me, which isnt often. Under saddle yes if they are stopping and I know its not me and they are capable and if my young horse refuses to go forward, mainly in the ring. One sharp tap normally changes his mind. I wouldnt beat a horse but I dont let my horses get away with things either


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## Crugeran Celt (14 January 2013)

I have a miniature that thinks its ok to nip to get your attention so she will get a thump on the neck when she does it. I was making a fuss of her mum last week and she nudged me in the back and when I took no notice she nipped my leg! Naughty pony but I love her to bits.


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## sywell (14 January 2013)

The response has to be instant so the animal relates to what it has done. If it bites me I whack it and if it gets upset and wont do something be calm and keep going and never give up or else it has won.


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## MrsB (14 January 2013)

My boy got a smack the other day for trying to and then succeeding in putting his foot through the top of my 'sturdy' plastic storage box.  He wanted a treat and thought that'd be the way to get them, this is naughty and he was told off.  He looked mortified (!!) but I'm of the 'firm but fair' theory.  All animals need discipline in some form or another.

He will also get a light tap (and I mean a light tap) with the schooling whip if he's being lazy and not listening to my leg in the school, I will not sit on him and boot the living daylights out of him to get him moving - this is just rude.

I always carry a high-viz whip when we hack out, a) to be seen and an extention of my arm when indicating and b) I *think* you're meant to carry one as part of your insurance???  May be wrong on that one, but I always carry one when out.


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## lastchancer (14 January 2013)

jeeve said:



			Smacking the horse is just a sign the owner/handler is frustrated. It achieves nothing with respect to training the horse and improving the safety/situation, or preventing a situation arising.

I know someone who used to hit her horse, (she told me this herself) but after years of NH, she now has two horses that are light, sensitive, a dream to handle and ride. (Both young horses). 

She was a 55 year old woman, who had been around horses her whole life, but until she did NH she still resorted to hitting out in frustration.
		
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See that I do agree with, hitting out in frustration is always counter productive. And something that we see far too much of, particularly from so called professionals.


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## Brightbay (14 January 2013)

Here's a simple question.

If it were possible to train your horse without smacking, would you still smack?


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## Cortez (14 January 2013)

Brightbay said:



			Here's a simple question.

If it were possible to train your horse without smacking, would you still smack?
		
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No. Why would I?


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## lastchancer (14 January 2013)

Brightbay said:



			Here's a simple question.

If it were possible to train your horse without smacking, would you still smack?
		
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Depends what the alternative was I guess. 
Some methods of 'training' that don't involve smacking;

Withholding Water
Endless Lunging
Working very young or very poor thus weak horses
Hobbling
Rareyfieing (John Rarey, Ye Olde Horse Whisperer)
Endless backing/intimidation with severe rope halter
Yanking on a bit/rein/thin rope halter/nose chain.
Work to the point of exhaustion, then work some more.
Rolkure 
Sacking out

I had a horse a couple of years ago that was dangerously whip shy, he'd leap all over anyone in terror of the whip. As part of his retraining I spent hour upon hour desensitising him to the whip, even the the sound of it sent him skywards. Starting with a short jockey whip and working up to a driving/lunge whip I tapped him all over with it, flicked him with it - not hard obviously. Working upto a fairly smart smack, I could also whirl it around chopper style above his head with out him flinching. Would the anti smackers call this abuse? Undoubtedly at time I would have frightened,although never hurt, him and the out come was/is a useful rideable horse rather than a ticking time bomb.

Of course no body wants to see a horse beaten, the horse detailed above was a very,very sad example. But you what, I have seen, owned and handled a lot of horses, and not many have been knocked about to that extent. I think in a lot of cases a short sharp reprimand delivered at the right time can me the most appropriate course of action. 
If I'm missing something and there's a better alternative suitable for all cases, then yes I'd like to hear it.


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## kerrieberry2 (14 January 2013)

I've learnt the hard way with my youngster. He bit me so got a slap in the mouth. Then I got a slap in my mouth when he rared and boxed out. Had my trainer out and we are both of the opinion that he will go in to battle rather than backing down. So no I won't be doing that again. Also got a hit with the whip another time he reared and he didn't seem to even feel it. And just left me feeli h guilty.


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## Christsam (14 January 2013)

niagaraduval said:



			I agree, I have no problem hitting mine (not beating him and never more than once) if he is putting himself or me in  danger. I think it's the right thing to do for both horse and rider.
		
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this. Mainly with my boy its to do with his damn teeth! sharp tap on the end his nose normally does the trick!  used to have to get tough when he was younger as he would rear etc but thats stopped now anyway.


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## wench (14 January 2013)

I will smack a horse if its done something to deserve it.

Also gave one of my old horses a good smack to bring him back to his senses. We were in the indoor school, which he had been in many times before, and there was a pot of fake flowers in the corner. These were evil and not to be approached. After much napping and silly behaving near them, one good smack and it brought him back to his senses.


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## turkana (14 January 2013)

I'm not much of a hitter & very rarely do it but I did smack one of my horses on Sunday, as she was horrible to my youngster; she was just standing there minding her own business when her so called pal booted her.
It was only a smack with my hand & she deserved it but I still felt a bit bad about it!


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## Cortez (14 January 2013)

lastchancer said:



			Depends what the alternative was I guess. 
Some methods of 'training' that don't involve smacking;

Withholding Water
Endless Lunging
Working very young or very poor thus weak horses
Hobbling
Rareyfieing (John Rarey, Ye Olde Horse Whisperer)
Endless backing/intimidation with severe rope halter
Yanking on a bit/rein/thin rope halter/nose chain.
Work to the point of exhaustion, then work some more.
Rolkure 
Sacking out

I had a horse a couple of years ago that was dangerously whip shy, he'd leap all over anyone in terror of the whip. As part of his retraining I spent hour upon hour desensitising him to the whip, even the the sound of it sent him skywards. Starting with a short jockey whip and working up to a driving/lunge whip I tapped him all over with it, flicked him with it - not hard obviously. Working upto a fairly smart smack, I could also whirl it around chopper style above his head with out him flinching. Would the anti smackers call this abuse? Undoubtedly at time I would have frightened,although never hurt, him and the out come was/is a useful rideable horse rather than a ticking time bomb.

Of course no body wants to see a horse beaten, the horse detailed above was a very,very sad example. But you what, I have seen, owned and handled a lot of horses, and not many have been knocked about to that extent. I think in a lot of cases a short sharp reprimand delivered at the right time can me the most appropriate course of action. 
If I'm missing something and there's a better alternative suitable for all cases, then yes I'd like to hear it.
		
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VERY good and perceptive point. Agree absolutely.


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## Holding (14 January 2013)

I actually can't remember the last time I smacked a horse. An open handed slap hurts! Me, that is, not the horse. Anything that tries to bite gets an elbow in the face, and anything in my personal space gets prodded hard in the chest until it moves back. I even - please don't tell the RSPCA - carry a schooling whip while I ride. And use it!


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## puss (14 January 2013)

My cob very rare hes old knows the score now when younger nearly everyday and not a tap either. Since moving to new yard getting quite a few again as turned back to a two year old
Spanish was badly beaten i try really hard not to smack him but when he bites me gets a sharp smack normally on his belly as allready head shy.


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## yasminA (14 January 2013)

The way I see it is that it's meant to be a partnership, if my pony disrespects the partnership and does something naughty like go to bite, I have no problem in giving him a smack, just one though and then let that be that.


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## fburton (14 January 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			Youngsters do try things out with their teeth that is true. In fact my 18 year old is still mouthy & likes to catch hold of things in his gob. This is very different from a nip or a bite....& given how experienced you put yourself as being you should know this. So how do you deal with a youngster who has started nipping?
		
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I'm going to be lazy and paste (with minor edits) something I wrote previously about the way I deal with coltish nibbling and biting. I'm not suggesting that other people try this - it's just what I do.

Concerning the issue of general mouthiness and tendency to chew on hands and clothing, as is common in colts. It isn't usually aggressive -- at least not initially -- and is in contrast to truly aggressive biting in which the horse strikes, teeth bared, ears back.

For nibbling, pinching the upper lip works quite well, especially with foals. It must be perceived as a direct result of lips/teeth contact with skin, so it is best to do it instantly, silently and without fuss. Maintaining the pinch for a second or two while the foal recoils seems to work better. It shouldn't be painful, just a bit uncomfortable.

However, the technique I find most effective, especially with older horses, is to let him start to take my hand into his mouth, then _instantly_ stick a knuckle into his soft palate causing him to try and spit my hand out. One has to be prepared for the few horses that either raise their heads up beyond arm's reach (it helps to keep
everything calm and matter-of-fact - but one would be doing that anyway, no?) or that find unexpectedly pointy objects palatable! In my experience, these cases are extremely rare - almost all horses respond in exactly the same way.

Obviously, one should always have a quick escape route for your fingers, using the gap behind the incisors. Very small pony mouths or the presence of tushes demand a bit more caution. Alternatively you can poke the palate with a finger, palm turned upwards. I try to keep my hand in the horse's mouth for a couple of seconds while he tries to spit it out/get rid of it with his tongue. You don't want to hurt or injure him; you just want him to really dislike the sensation.

With deft movement you can intercept nibbles elsewhere (e.g. on your clothing) in such a way that the horse comes to realize that it is unpleasant and not worth nibbling anywhere on your person. It's kind of hard to describe the exact moves and timing in words - showing a video clip would be better!

I think it is crucial that your response to nibbling is perceived as a consequence of his own action and NOT as a reprimand. At least, it will be more effective that way as you will avoid it being taken as an act of aggression which could escalate to "dominance games". I firmly believe those are to be avoided at all cost. Sometimes one can get away with being aggressive, but the cumulative effect in any horse is an erosion of trust and cultivation of resentment. However, with stallions, the changes in attitude caused by repeated aggressive reprimanding are more likely to surface in overtly aggressive behaviour on their part.

Please note that I am not arguing against use of punishment at all. However, I am pointing out that the _way_ punishment is administered (and with what intent) matters a great deal. To reiterate: from the horse's point of view, nasty things shouldn't come from you the person. Rather, they should follow directly from specific actions or behaviours.

Two or three repeats in a couple of sessions is usually effective to extinguish the nibbling behaviour completely and permanently. If you then offer your hand up to his mouth, you will see the horse thinking about taking it, as he would have done before, and then deciding to keep his mouth firmly shut!

With this method I have taught many foals and young colts not to nip. I've also used it successfully with a few problem stallions who had their mouthiness turned into more serious nipping by badly administered punishment (which turned it into a pernicious "game"). Success rate has been 100%; injury rate 0% (in over 20 years of using this method).

Despite what you may now be thinking, I am very safety conscious. Actually, going into a horses mouth isn't a big deal is it? I am sure many of you have done it before - e.g. when opening a horse's mouth to put a bridle on. And it's not like you have to do it very often - maybe half a dozen times per horse in total.

Finally, it is an effective alternative to smacking, and avoids some of smacking's potential downsides.

In summary, the palate-poking method:

- doesn't involve hitting or scolding the horse
- doesn't hurt the horse
- is 100% effective (so far, in my experience)
- fits seemlessly with and doesn't distract from whatever else you may be doing with the horse
- needs very few repetitions
- doesn't create any bad feelings towards the handler


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## tallyho! (14 January 2013)

fburton said:



			I'm going to be lazy and paste (with minor edits) something I wrote previously about the way I deal with coltish nibbling and biting. I'm not suggesting that other people try this - it's just what I do.

Concerning the issue of general mouthiness and tendency to chew on hands and clothing, as is common in colts. It isn't usually aggressive -- at least not initially -- and is in contrast to truly aggressive biting in which the horse strikes, teeth bared, ears back.

For nibbling, pinching the upper lip works quite well, especially with foals. It must be perceived as a direct result of lips/teeth contact with skin, so it is best to do it instantly, silently and without fuss. Maintaining the pinch for a second or two while the foal recoils seems to work better. It shouldn't be painful, just a bit uncomfortable.

However, the technique I find most effective, especially with older horses, is to let him start to take my hand into his mouth, then _instantly_ stick a knuckle into his soft palate causing him to try and spit my hand out. One has to be prepared for the few horses that either raise their heads up beyond arm's reach (it helps to keep
everything calm and matter-of-fact - but one would be doing that anyway, no?) or that find unexpectedly pointy objects palatable! In my experience, these cases are extremely rare - almost all horses respond in exactly the same way.

Obviously, one should always have a quick escape route for your fingers, using the gap behind the incisors. Very small pony mouths or the presence of tushes demand a bit more caution. Alternatively you can poke the palate with a finger, palm turned upwards. I try to keep my hand in the horse's mouth for a couple of seconds while he tries to spit it out/get rid of it with his tongue. You don't want to hurt or injure him; you just want him to really dislike the sensation.

With deft movement you can intercept nibbles elsewhere (e.g. on your clothing) in such a way that the horse comes to realize that it is unpleasant and not worth nibbling anywhere on your person. It's kind of hard to describe the exact moves and timing in words - showing a video clip would be better!

I think it is crucial that your response to nibbling is perceived as a consequence of his own action and NOT as a reprimand. At least, it will be more effective that way as you will avoid it being taken as an act of aggression which could escalate to "dominance games". I firmly believe those are to be avoided at all cost. Sometimes one can get away with being aggressive, but the cumulative effect in any horse is an erosion of trust and cultivation of resentment. However, with stallions, the changes in attitude caused by repeated aggressive reprimanding are more likely to surface in overtly aggressive behaviour on their part.

Please note that I am not arguing against use of punishment at all. However, I am pointing out that the _way_ punishment is administered (and with what intent) matters a great deal. To reiterate: from the horse's point of view, nasty things shouldn't come from you the person. Rather, they should follow directly from specific actions or behaviours.

Two or three repeats in a couple of sessions is usually effective to extinguish the nibbling behaviour completely and permanently. If you then offer your hand up to his mouth, you will see the horse thinking about taking it, as he would have done before, and then deciding to keep his mouth firmly shut!

With this method I have taught many foals and young colts not to nip. I've also used it successfully with a few problem stallions who had their mouthiness turned into more serious nipping by badly administered punishment (which turned it into a pernicious "game"). Success rate has been 100%; injury rate 0% (in over 20 years of using this method).

Despite what you may now be thinking, I am very safety conscious. Actually, going into a horses mouth isn't a big deal is it? I am sure many of you have done it before - e.g. when opening a horse's mouth to put a bridle on. And it's not like you have to do it very often - maybe half a dozen times per horse in total.

Finally, it is an effective alternative to smacking, and avoids some of smacking's potential downsides.

In summary, the palate-poking method:

- doesn't involve hitting or scolding the horse
- doesn't hurt the horse
- is 100% effective (so far, in my experience)
- fits seemlessly with and doesn't distract from whatever else you may be doing with the horse
- needs very few repetitions
- doesn't create any bad feelings towards the handler
		
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The above also works with cats and dogs.


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## fburton (14 January 2013)

Brightbay said:



			Here's a simple question.

If it were possible to train your horse without smacking, would you still smack?
		
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Well, I _know_ it's possible to train and work with horses without smacking, because there are some horses that I have never smacked, including one stallion that I knew and handled from the age of 3 until he was pts at age 30, 6 years ago. I never smacked my TB gelding either in the 17 years I had him. I certainly wouldn't say the behaviour of either was 'perfect' 100% of the time.

There are other horses which I _have_ smacked, although in retrospect I wonder if that was just down to lack of experience. I _think_ there were probably better alternatives. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.  

Still, I would never rule it out as a possible measure in case of emergency, to avoid bodily harm - but then it is highly likely that some _other_ action is needed to stay safe.


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## Spring Feather (14 January 2013)

FBurton, good points.  I don't go to the trouble of doing what you do but I do similar with youngsters who may get a little OTT with mouthing. I pull their tongues out the side of their mouths.  Not hard and not with aggression, just do it and hold the tongue for a few seconds then release.  They don't like that and in my experience they are reluctant to mouth on people again.


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## hessy12 (14 January 2013)

Rarely. I think praise for appropriate behaviour works better.


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## fburton (14 January 2013)

tallyho! said:



			The above also works with cats and dogs.
		
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Not surprised to be honest. The method is based in pure cause-and-effect, and doesn't rely on anything specifically equine.

You wouldn't catch me sticking my finger in a dog's mouth though - that's _far_ too dangerous!


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## fburton (14 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			FBurton, good points.  I don't go to the trouble of doing what you do but I do similar with youngsters who may get a little OTT with mouthing. I pull their tongues out the side of their mouths.  Not hard and not with aggression, just do it and hold the tongue for a few seconds then release.  They don't like that and in my experience they are reluctant to mouth on people again.
		
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Brilliant! A variation on the same principle - don't get mad, just make the unwanted action have instant uncomfortable consequences.


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## tallyho! (14 January 2013)

fburton said:



			Not surprised to be honest. The method is based in pure cause-and-effect, and doesn't rely on anything specifically equine.

You wouldn't catch me sticking my finger in a dog's mouth though - that's _far_ too dangerous! 

Click to expand...

Ah, well, I like to live on the edge and to be fair a cats mouth is much worse


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## daisydoo (14 January 2013)

I don't 'smack' as standard. My 20 month old is v mouthy but blocking with my elbow so she 'bumps' into me puts her off as she's kind of inflicting it on herself in that way and not getting resentful which she might if I were to 'lash out'. 

Only exception was when I was grooming her undercarriage when she was about 11 months and she tried to cow kick so I set up a training session loose in the field, she was eating hay and used to me giving her a brush etc anyway in the field, anyway I knew she'd try out her new moves on me because she thought she could! but I was ready with one sharp quick pop on the rear with the lead rope literally as she was doing it. Well she leapt 10 feet away and the surprise and shock on her face was a picture, she had her ears forward on me and then sloped back to me wanting to be friends. Never tried to kick again so in that instance i believe it was warranted. In hindsight I could have desensitised her undercarriage more, maybe it tickled her etc but that's neither here nor there I had to nip that dangerous behaviour in the bud straight away and it worked.

I hate to see people smacking their horses for every little thing, do they not realise it desensitises them to it anyway and one day they'll turn round and take a chunk out of annoying human and too right!


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## Spring Feather (14 January 2013)

fburton said:



			Brilliant! A variation on the same principle - don't get mad, just make the unwanted action have instant uncomfortable consequences.
		
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Nope never get mad at them.  I'm calm with my guys and when I've done this with the little ones they look at me like 'what's going on, this feels strange'.  Funny but they don't pull away, they just stand there and I keep the tongue out for long enough for it to go slightly dry  so that when I release the tongue and they put it back in their mouth it's a weird feeling for them because the tongue isn't slippery as usual.  They don't run away and aren't fussed about it, or me, they just don't like the feeling and I've not found those ones I've done it to ever mouth on people again, or even try to.  Might sound a strange thing to do but it works for me.


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## glamourpuss (14 January 2013)

You should be careful doing anything that involved pulling on a horse's tongue. It has been shown that this damages the hyoid bone  
There was an interesting thread in CR about this, I'll find it


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## glamourpuss (14 January 2013)

Here

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=234502&highlight=Tongue


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## Spring Feather (14 January 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			You should be careful doing anything that involved pulling on a horse's tongue. It has been shown that this damages the hyoid bone  
There was an interesting thread in CR about this, I'll find it
		
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Yes I know about this, hence I am gentle about it


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## Kallibear (14 January 2013)

Spring feather: Roo must have missed your memo. He LOVES having his tounge tugged (gently!) and his soft palate itched. He was a little mouthy for a while so did the nose pinching trick which worked as it was a hard pinch. A soft pinch though, is the best game ever.


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## Spring Feather (14 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Spring feather: Roo must have missed your memo. He LOVES having his tounge tugged (gently!) and his soft palate itched. He was a little mouthy for a while so did the nose pinching trick which worked as it was a hard pinch. A soft pinch though, is the best game ever.
		
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Lol! Whatever works   It's not the pulling (I don't pull as such, more hold the tongue out of the mouth), it's the dryness of the tongue when you keep it out of the mouth for a number of seconds that confuses them.


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## tallyho! (14 January 2013)

To those who don't believe in any form of reprimand... We're you an only child?


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## HashRouge (14 January 2013)

I very rarely smack my mare - usually it's only to avoid getting leaped on so in the interests of self-preservation! She can be a bit silly with other horses, and is prone to leaping about and kicking out, which obviously can be a problem if I'm leading her. Normally I just ignore her, but if she is in danger of squishing me (or hurting herself, as she has been to known to kick out and hit the fence) then she will get a smack and a firm "NO". I don't believe in over doing it at all, but a telling off can have its place.


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## Spring Feather (14 January 2013)

tallyho! said:



			To those who don't believe in any form of reprimand... We're you an only child?



Click to expand...

No but my mother was very much like my broodmares, she never raised any limb to me ever   However your comment does lead me on to an idea I have.  My foals, as said, appear to be born respectful.  I don't have trouble with them.  People who buy horses that I've raised don't appear to have problems with them either.  I keep my foals in herds with all the other foals and mothers, and although none of the mothers will discipline their own foals, the other mothers will!  Once they are weaned the foals go in with older horses, so again are living in a decent sized herd.  They are disciplined by these older horses and it seems to keep them on the straight and narrow.  Perhaps the problem with so many horses is they are not kept like this?  They are the 'only' child so to speak ... make sense?


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## Cortez (14 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			No but my mother was very much like my broodmares, she never raised any limb to me ever   However your comment does lead me on to an idea I have.  My foals, as said, appear to be born respectful.  I don't have trouble with them.  People who buy horses that I've raised don't appear to have problems with them either.  I keep my foals in herds with all the other foals and mothers, and although none of the mothers will discipline their own foals, the other mothers will!  Once they are weaned the foals go in with older horses, so again are living in a decent sized herd.  They are disciplined by these older horses and it seems to keep them on the straight and narrow.  Perhaps the problem with so many horses is they are not kept like this?  They are the 'only' child so to speak ... make sense?
		
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Oh yes, totally agree with you there. I used to breed quite a lot of foals (10 - 15 per year) and kept all out in herds. Only when I had a single rescued mare and foal many years later did I realise how much the herd was responsible for keeping order! That colt was a little *****, tormented his mother and us, and had to have a very severe awakening to his place in the world before very long.


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## Dizzy socks (14 January 2013)

Wow... logs on to 13 pages of replies!
.
I am with the " When the horse or myself is in danger" camp. However, I would use a schooling whip to back up a leg aid.


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## tallyho! (14 January 2013)

Spring feather, cortez, it's interesting isn't it?


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## AengusOg (14 January 2013)

It is possible to train horses without recourse to physical punishment. Some people bring children up without hitting them, so why not horses?

I have six horses here. I bred two of them, and bought the others in as youngsters. I've never hit any of them. I do plenty with them, too.

I also handle and train horses for other people. I don't think I'd get much work if I was known for hitting horses.

People hit horses for all sorts of reasons, but I think the horses seldom deserve it.

Hitters of horses are always very quick to cite various scenarios and ask what people who don't hit horses would do in such circumstances. Like some on here, I don't get drawn into those sort of challenges.

A horse must trust the trainer for progress to be made in his training. He must be kept in a trainable frame of mind, and any resistance from him must be managed and kept to a minimum. Hitting horses, in my opinion, damages trust and sets up resistance in the horse.

I don't yell at horses, either. I use quiet encouraging tones when training, and give praise  for good behaviour/work. I believe negative use of the voice is disturbing for horses and worries them, and this is counter-productive in their training. 

It's unfortunate that, for some people, the use of reprimand and physical punishment is such a natural response to certain behaviours of horses. It is often a reflex response, and regret can quickly follow.


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## Kallibear (14 January 2013)

AngusOg : what do you use as a clear 'No!'? Very very few people train with no negative reinforcement what so ever. 

I so rarely ever smack my horse that I can entirely see how it's possible to train without the need but there are times when I need to administer a 'punishment'. I can quite easily terrify a horse  (should I ever need to?!) without touching them or raising voice but fail to see how that is better than just smacking them.

I train by praising the good, ignoring the incorrect (or correcting it) but also by punishing the willfully bad. And I refuse to believe that horses don't deliberately do what they know to be 'bad' occasionally and have for no acceptable reason (i.e pain or fear is an 'acceptable reason'. )


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## Elsiecat (14 January 2013)

Personally, I like to go outside and smack my horse every time I'm subjected to another round of paleriders drivel.


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## Pale Rider (14 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			It is possible to train horses without recourse to physical punishment. Some people bring children up without hitting them, so why not horses?

I have six horses here. I bred two of them, and bought the others in as youngsters. I've never hit any of them. I do plenty with them, too.

I also handle and train horses for other people. I don't think I'd get much work if I was known for hitting horses.

People hit horses for all sorts of reasons, but I think the horses seldom deserve it.

Hitters of horses are always very quick to cite various scenarios and ask what people who don't hit horses would do in such circumstances. Like some on here, I don't get drawn into those sort of challenges.

A horse must trust the trainer for progress to be made in his training. He must be kept in a trainable frame of mind, and any resistance from him must be managed and kept to a minimum. Hitting horses, in my opinion, damages trust and sets up resistance in the horse.

I don't yell at horses, either. I use quiet encouraging tones when training, and give praise  for good behaviour/work. I believe negative use of the voice is disturbing for horses and worries them, and this is counter-productive in their training. 

It's unfortunate that, for some people, the use of reprimand and physical punishment is such a natural response to certain behaviours of horses. It is often a reflex response, and regret can quickly follow.
		
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Spot on, a trainer's business wouldn't last two minutes if it came out on this particular forum that they'd been hitting horses, despite the hypocrisy of the situation. I think you've summed this one up for me AengusOg with this:-

""Hitting horses, in my opinion, damages trust and sets up resistance in the horse."" and 
""I believe negative use of the voice is disturbing for horses and worries them, and this is counter-productive in their training.""

Excellent.


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## AdorableAlice (14 January 2013)

It is time for a deeply emotional confession, for I have sinned, the shame of it.

My 29 year old crafty black Welsh Section A witch, chanced her luck tonight, scoffed her evening meal of 6 pony nuts and headed, ears flat back and all guns a blazing, straight for the cow, who was minding her own business and eating her tea.

With the aim of John Wayne I launched the feed scoop, accompanied with a polite "don't do that you old bag", bullseye, the scoop landed square on her bottom, did a double pike and clipped her ear.

Stopped in her tracks she glared at me, mouthed something unprintable and returned to the other end of the barn and her haynet.  The cow giggled, farted and finished her beef nuts in peace.  Ted wet his pants laughing and Alice hid behind Ted, because last time I launched anything the aim was awful and Alice found herself wearing a headcollar as a bracelet.

I am ready for the knock on the door, my tin hat is on and chinstrap firmly fixed.  Should I be locked up, and many think this is the best route for me, please can someone look after Little Ted and Alice.  Whoever has them must speak plain english, no drivel and treat them well.  They are well used to regular beatings and they do respond to every swear word known to man.


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## Elsiecat (14 January 2013)

AdorableAlice, you cruel owner. You should be at one with her. You should have told her no through your vibes and used your inner wisdom to warn off the fire burning in your mares belly encouraging her to seek to cause another pain.
When my horse is ill, I'm so emotionally in-tune with her that I only have to pray to Epona to find the answers. 
Your answers don't lie in the end of a feedscoop. Seek them through your sole. 
You have caused unmentionable trouble to your mares trust in you tonight. You will never be able to touch her again.


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## Kallibear (14 January 2013)

Oooo, you bad bad person. You're not fit to have horses. Id tell you to give me Ted but I can't bear the thought of him and Roo charging around and destroying my field even more.

Your aim us better than mine! I threw a brush at Roo the other day from the tack room as he was chewing Pink's saddle. Missed entirely but it WAS effective: he instantly pounced on the brush and started chewing that instead, then ran off with it. Problem sorted. I have yet to find the brush though.

ETA Snigger @ elsiecat  Although have we moved into barefeet if we're talking about sole rather than soul?


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## Dizzy socks (14 January 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			It is time for a deeply emotional confession, for I have sinned, the shame of it.

My 29 year old crafty black Welsh Section A witch, chanced her luck tonight, scoffed her evening meal of 6 pony nuts and headed, ears flat back and all guns a blazing, straight for the cow, who was minding her own business and eating her tea.

With the aim of John Wayne I launched the feed scoop, accompanied with a polite "don't do that you old bag", bullseye, the scoop landed square on her bottom, did a double pike and clipped her ear.

Stopped in her tracks she glared at me, mouthed something unprintable and returned to the other end of the barn and her haynet.  The cow giggled, farted and finished her beef nuts in peace.  Ted wet his pants laughing and Alice hid behind Ted, because last time I launched anything the aim was awful and Alice found herself wearing a headcollar as a bracelet.

I am ready for the knock on the door, my tin hat is on and chinstrap firmly fixed.  Should I be locked up, and many think this is the best route for me, please can someone look after Little Ted and Alice.  Whoever has them must speak plain english, no drivel and treat them well.  They are well used to regular beatings and they do respond to every swear word known to man.
		
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Very naughty...


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## AengusOg (14 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			AngusOg : what do you use as a clear 'No!'? Very very few people train with no negative reinforcement what so ever.
		
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I'm not sure if these two sentences are supposed to be linked or not. I see them as a question and a statement. Negative reinforcement has nothing to do with reprimand or issuing a 'clear No!' I don't think it possible to train or work a horse without at least some use of negative reinforcement.

I don't use clear 'No!' 'No' doesn't appear in my vocabulary with horses, so vocally I am supportive, encouraging, and praising. I use negative reinforcement through the halter, my use of 'pressure and release' and 'advance and retreat', to encourage the responses I seek.

However, some horses with whom I'm asked to work can be very aware of their ability to intimidate humans, and such horses need to be quickly made aware of the boundaries they must observe from a 'my safety' point of view. I use visual cues, body posture and language, and energy to demonstrate the potential danger I could pose to a horse who may be a danger to me. Immediately the horse responds by lessening his 'threat' to me, I use more passive demeanour and encouraging voice to manage him, thereby forming the basis for the correct relationship between us to facilitate his training. 

Reading intent on the part of a horse is fundamental to training him. So many people miss so much when working with horses. By being able to closely observe the horse and anticipate his behaviour in response to certain stimuli, the trainer is able to obviate much of the behaviour which would otherwise lead to conflict and the need (by some) to use reprimand.  



Kallibear said:



			I so rarely ever smack my horse that I can entirely see how it's possible to train without the need but there are times when I need to administer a 'punishment'. I can quite easily terrify a horse  (should I ever need to?!) without touching them or raising voice but fail to see how that is better than just smacking them.
		
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I just can't see the sense in using physical violence against a horse when there are other ways to shape their behaviour.



Kallibear said:



			I train by praising the good, ignoring the incorrect (or correcting it) but also by punishing the willfully bad. And I refuse to believe that horses don't deliberately do what they know to be 'bad' occasionally and have for no acceptable reason (i.e pain or fear is an 'acceptable reason'. )
		
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I tend to ignore undesirable behaviour too, as long as it doesn't put me in danger. However, I also tend not to address 'bad' behaviour in horses, preferring to teach them a new, more desirable way to behave, rather than get into conflict.

I don't know if horses can be willfully bad.


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## Spotsrock (14 January 2013)

My horses register their dissatisfaction with one another and dominance through threats and pressure. I would be more likely to raise my voice than my hand and more likely to raise my hand than smack. I don't tolerate dangerous though. Horses move toward pressure and are reactive animals. Often failing to handle firmly can confuse and depress them far more than the odd tap. Mine have good manners and are generally a pleasure to handle, i'm firm but they are all bold as brass but polite, not a nervous or headshy battered wreck among them. All been smacked at some point, all been shouted at for silly or rude things within last 7 days b1 still leans on her door when I do her rugs after 10 years of correction, b2 for walking where i'm walking, but all happy to stand and sleep with their head on my shoulder or lick my neck (bug) or nose (b1). I have well adjusted happy horses who know I am the alpha and gain confidence as herd animals from the knowledge that I am there to sort alpha stuff like where to find food and chasing off danger. I can ride them past anything because they trust me as head of our herd not fear me.


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## Kenzo (14 January 2013)

Yes but I'm not one of these that is always slapping them about and quick to do so due to impatience or incorrect handling, there is a big difference. 
Firm but fair and timed right, just like horses react with each other, I cant bite or kick like a horse but I will raise a hand and shout no if a horse disrespects me, if they know the boundaries then we all get along just fine, my horses enjoy my company and vice versa because I treat them with kindness and respect, but your dealing with half a ton of animal and they need to bare the consequences for there actions if they step out of line, what that is and how often will differ between us and will show if your doing it right or not but that is a whole differnt ball fame


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## Alyth (15 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			AngusOg : what do you use as a clear 'No!'? Very very few people train with no negative reinforcement what so ever. 

I so rarely ever smack my horse that I can entirely see how it's possible to train without the need but there are times when I need to administer a 'punishment'. I can quite easily terrify a horse  (should I ever need to?!) without touching them or raising voice but fail to see how that is better than just smacking them.

I train by praising the good, ignoring the incorrect (or correcting it) but also by punishing the willfully bad. And I refuse to believe that horses don't deliberately do what they know to be 'bad' occasionally and have for no acceptable reason (i.e pain or fear is an 'acceptable reason'. )
		
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Saying 'no' is not negative reinforcement!  Negative reinforcement is removing the stimulus when you get the response you want.....  I refuse to believe that horses are deliberately 'bad'.  I think that when a horse is 'wilfully bad' he is trying to tell you something!!  And I do not believe in 'punishment' for a horse.  Way back in the 1950s my dad taught me that punishing a horse is simply releasing your frustration!!! And my dad was never wrong!!!!


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## Alyth (15 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			It is possible to train horses without recourse to physical punishment. Some people bring children up without hitting them, so why not horses?

I have six horses here. I bred two of them, and bought the others in as youngsters. I've never hit any of them. I do plenty with them, too.

I also handle and train horses for other people. I don't think I'd get much work if I was known for hitting horses.

People hit horses for all sorts of reasons, but I think the horses seldom deserve it.

Hitters of horses are always very quick to cite various scenarios and ask what people who don't hit horses would do in such circumstances. Like some on here, I don't get drawn into those sort of challenges.

A horse must trust the trainer for progress to be made in his training. He must be kept in a trainable frame of mind, and any resistance from him must be managed and kept to a minimum. Hitting horses, in my opinion, damages trust and sets up resistance in the horse.

I don't yell at horses, either. I use quiet encouraging tones when training, and give praise  for good behaviour/work. I believe negative use of the voice is disturbing for horses and worries them, and this is counter-productive in their training. 

It's unfortunate that, for some people, the use of reprimand and physical punishment is such a natural response to certain behaviours of horses. It is often a reflex response, and regret can quickly follow.
		
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Nice!!


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## Alyth (15 January 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			It is time for a deeply emotional confession, for I have sinned, the shame of it.

My 29 year old crafty black Welsh Section A witch, chanced her luck tonight, scoffed her evening meal of 6 pony nuts and headed, ears flat back and all guns a blazing, straight for the cow, who was minding her own business and eating her tea.

With the aim of John Wayne I launched the feed scoop, accompanied with a polite "don't do that you old bag", bullseye, the scoop landed square on her bottom, did a double pike and clipped her ear.

Stopped in her tracks she glared at me, mouthed something unprintable and returned to the other end of the barn and her haynet.  The cow giggled, farted and finished her beef nuts in peace.  Ted wet his pants laughing and Alice hid behind Ted, because last time I launched anything the aim was awful and Alice found herself wearing a headcollar as a bracelet.

I am ready for the knock on the door, my tin hat is on and chinstrap firmly fixed.  Should I be locked up, and many think this is the best route for me, please can someone look after Little Ted and Alice.  Whoever has them must speak plain english, no drivel and treat them well.  They are well used to regular beatings and they do respond to every swear word known to man.
		
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Well, imo you expended more energy than necessary!!  If you had simply put each animal in its own pen to feed different amounts, the ones being fed less would have no opportunity to steal anothers food.......KISS!!!


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## tallyho! (15 January 2013)

I think us "smackers" ought to be invited to AengusOg's, PaleRider's and Alyth's yard so we can be taught properly and observe how to curb our frustrations.

I'm free next weekend.


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## Alyth (15 January 2013)

tallyho! said:



			I think us "smackers" ought to be invited to AengusOg's, PaleRider's and Alyth's yard so we can be taught properly and observe how to curb our frustrations.

I'm free next weekend.
		
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What flight are you on?  I'll drive up to Auckland to pick you up!!  How will I recognise you??


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## tallyho! (15 January 2013)

Alyth said:



			What flight are you on?  I'll drive up to Auckland to pick you up!!  How will I recognise you??
		
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Auckland?? NZ?? I'm there!!!!!!!!

Will just clear it with the hubby... may have to "borrow" some funds...


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## AMW (15 January 2013)

to the poster who said stick a finger in the roof of the mouth - thank you  it works! had never heard of doing this before.
Have a gobby colt, not nasty or wicked but gobby, tried it this morning and he was like 'what the hell?' I wont say yet it has stopped him but Im going to keep doing it as long as he does. btw he didnt try it again this morning


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## Alyth (15 January 2013)

tallyho! said:



			Auckland?? NZ?? I'm there!!!!!!!!

Will just clear it with the hubby... may have to "borrow" some funds...
		
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LOL  You would be welcome any time!!  Isn't that what 'credit' cards are for??!!


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## PolarSkye (15 January 2013)

Alyth said:



			I think that when a horse is 'wilfully bad' he is trying to tell you something!!!!
		
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So when we first bought the GreyDonkey and he was a bargey so-and-so with no respect for human's space, what was he trying to tell me?  He is now an absolute delight to handle and lead . . . a three-year-old child could bring him in from the field . . . but it wasn't always thus.  

P


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## ShadowFlame (15 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			It is possible to train horses without recourse to physical punishment. Some people bring children up without hitting them, so why not horses?
		
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This is exactly my point. HORSES ARE NOT CHILDREN. When a child gets unruly, it's easy to handle. When half a ton of animal decides to throw a tantrum, it's dangerous. Add that to the fact that children are NOT prey animals, do NOT live in herds, and you can REASON verbally with them. You can't compare the two.

I use smacks when the need calls for it. When we moved to our new yard, I had 4 people in the space of a week comment on how good my boy is, and how well we work together. We have an understanding and an awesome bond - the use of punishment hasn't altered or affected that in the slightest, it has just reinforced his respect (and stopped him being a bargy little s*d!!).


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## Shantara (15 January 2013)

If I never hit Ned or told him off, I would have a broken horse and a broken me.

I haven't had to do it for ages, but I've never "beat" him.
In fact, I trained him to respect my space in the stable and pen the other week. I never properly hit him, but simply bounced the whip/my hand off his chest while saying "BACK" very clearly. I don't have to touch him anymore and he responds very well.


Had I had Ned from a baby, who knows. I don't think myself to be a fantastic horse trainer (or a horse trainer at all for that matter), but maybe if he had come to be first, would he be a better horse now? He came to the yard ruined and we had no idea what he'd been through, we just knew there were a lot of scars, he was off to the meat man and by the way he reacted to stuff, he'd had poor training from somewhere down the line and sometimes for everyone's safety that means a slap. I hate doing it, but I like to think it's saved me from being squashed on the fence a few times.
I think it has it's place, but the power shouldn't be over-used. I see that too much!


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## fburton (15 January 2013)

tallyho! said:



			To those who don't believe in any form of reprimand...
		
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Reprimanding suggests you are telling the horse off, rebuking, scolding, admonishing, whatever... Often it's better to encourage and make easy the behaviour you want as a way of avoiding the behaviour you don't want. Sometimes, however, it is appropriate to discourage the horse doing something, like the previous nibbling example. In that case I prefer to punish the behaviour, not the horse.

Punishment needn't be violent at all. It can be the mildest action needed to discourage an action or behaviour. (I believe it _should_ be the mildest action possible, ideally, and that is worth striving for.) Palate-poking is pretty mild, but there are lots of punishments milder even than that. Here's an example:

When I am leading a horse at the shoulder and he veers to one side - let's say away from me - I hold the leadrope in such a way that he gently bumps into its tension. I don't jerk the rope and, although the horse feels something, it isn't a very obvious gesture. Indeed, an onlooker might not see it at all! The horse doesn't react by raising his head up suddenly, licking his lips, putting his ears back, or by changing his pace at all. But I know that the action or a short series of them has punished the veering because he now walks straighter and doesn't veer off to the side. His attitude to me hasn't changed in any way that I can see, he still looks happy and relaxed. He can still turn his head to look around - that's only fair - but he knows that moving too far produces a sensation of resistance. This is much less than what he would get if he was tied to a ring on the wall and moved his head too far - that is an unyielding resistance compared to what I am able to produce by tensing my arm muscles.

Would you say that was punishment? Well, yes it is according the behavioural definition - but I think you'll agree it's nothing like a _reprimand_.


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## fburton (15 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			And I refuse to believe that horses don't deliberately do what they know to be 'bad' occasionally and have for no acceptable reason (i.e pain or fear is an 'acceptable reason'. )
		
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Why do people think that horses have such a developed sense of right and wrong? I honestly can't think of any behaviours in horses that are caused by 'dishonourable' motivations - even horrible (to our eyes) behaviour like bullying. Isn't it we humans that decide what is an 'acceptable reason' or not?

Is hunger an 'acceptable reason' for a horse to do something? If not, why not?



AengusOg said:



			I don't know if horses can be willfully bad.
		
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Whether they can or not - and I think it is highly unlikely - working on the assumption that they can't seems to work just fine!


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## fburton (15 January 2013)

AMW said:



			to the poster who said stick a finger in the roof of the mouth - thank you  it works! had never heard of doing this before.
Have a gobby colt, not nasty or wicked but gobby, tried it this morning and he was like 'what the hell?' I wont say yet it has stopped him but Im going to keep doing it as long as he does. btw he didnt try it again this morning 

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Great to hear it works for someone else!  Isn't it amazing how quickly they 'go off' nibbling? If your colt's nibbling _does_ start up again, I'd be surprised - and interested to hear about it. He may direct his mouthiness elsewhere - like some other part of your clothing - but if you watch him closely and intercept him the instant he tries to do it, I think you'll find he will stop that too just as quickly.


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## fburton (15 January 2013)

ShadowFlame said:



			This is exactly my point. HORSES ARE NOT CHILDREN. When a child gets unruly, it's easy to handle. When half a ton of animal decides to throw a tantrum, it's dangerous. Add that to the fact that children are NOT prey animals, do NOT live in herds, and you can REASON verbally with them. You can't compare the two.
		
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I agree - horses are not children. However, I think would find it easier to deal with 'naughty' horses than naughty children because horses are much, much less complicated (despite being 1200lb animals!) and mistakes are more readily forgiven(?). I consider their lack of verbal reasoning a plus - imagine what it would be like if horses were that sophisticated!


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## diamonddogs (15 January 2013)

fburton said:



			...
When I am leading a horse at the shoulder and he veers to one side - let's say away from me...[/i].
		
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Thank you - finally someone's suggested an alternative, instead of making sarky condescending comments!


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## daisydoo (15 January 2013)

Good advice I agree! I tend to hold the rope just around my left hip for leverage iykwim so if horsey veers away it will go 'taught' and I don't really have to do anything to bring her back.


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## daisydoo (15 January 2013)

I have an 8 ft rope by the way.


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## applecart14 (15 January 2013)

When my horse is bolshy, when he tows me somewhere or when he swings his bum around into my path.  I like a bit of respect from my horse and he tends to tow me places as he knows my back is weak (slipped disc) and can get away with it.

I smack him on the shoulder, bum, or tap him on the nose and have no hesitation.  They are bigger and stronger than us, and 'kind words' or a 'softly softly' approach are often not effective, especially when the adrenalin is up.  I would never beat him up, or whip him continually.  I have heard a friend who saw a friend get off her horse, and whip it within an inch of its life as it was a 'trotter' and wouldn't learn to trot 'normally'.  It made me feel sick hearing what had happened.  If Bailey pushes me so far, and I feel very angry I will walk away from the situation until I have calmed down sufficiently to continue.  The ability to do so is something that comes with age.


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## tallyho! (15 January 2013)

Alyth said:



			LOL  You would be welcome any time!!  Isn't that what 'credit' cards are for??!!
		
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Exactly! The problem is, he's the one with it... I'm not allowed my own.


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## AengusOg (15 January 2013)

tallyho! said:



			I think us "smackers" ought to be invited to AengusOg's, PaleRider's and Alyth's yard so we can be taught properly and observe how to curb our frustrations.

I'm free next weekend.
		
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Next weekend it is then. Lots of people have seen me work with horses, and all my work comes by recommendation.


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## tallyho! (15 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			Next weekend it is then. Lots of people have seen me work with horses, and all my work comes by recommendation.
		
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In Scotland?. Actually I could tie in with a visit to my cousins in Glasgow...

I'm completely up for this by the way... If you are? Although next weekend in Scotland may be pushing it... More achievable than NZ sorry to have to say to Alyth...  would have been an awesome trip.. Perhaps she'll pencil me in for a few years time?


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## Buds_mum (15 January 2013)

I beat mine pretty regularly with a big stick 

But when he is good he gets a big sloppy snog on the nose and a packet of polos.

You know so his boundaries are very clearly defined


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## Ibblebibble (15 January 2013)

I don't hit them but i did accidently deck the mini shetland the other week leading him up the track and he decided he was going to try legging it, i let him go to the end of the rope and then gave what i though was a little tug, one shetland flat on his side poor lad i did feel bad but he walked lovely the rest of the way obviously i'm stronger than i think!


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## Shantara (15 January 2013)

Ibblebibble said:



			I don't hit them but i did accidently deck the mini shetland the other week leading him up the track and he decided he was going to try legging it, i let him go to the end of the rope and then gave what i though was a little tug, one shetland flat on his side poor lad i did feel bad but he walked lovely the rest of the way obviously i'm stronger than i think!
		
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Pahaha! Poor thing, I had to laugh at that XD 
I did something similar to a Jack Russell once! Thankfully he was ok too!


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## Dizzy socks (15 January 2013)

Ibblebibble said:



			I don't hit them but i did accidently deck the mini shetland the other week leading him up the track and he decided he was going to try legging it, i let him go to the end of the rope and then gave what i though was a little tug, one shetland flat on his side poor lad i did feel bad but he walked lovely the rest of the way obviously i'm stronger than i think!
		
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I feel mean for laughing..


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## Lego (15 January 2013)

As a lot of others have said, I smack if the situation warrants... On the rare occasion that the horse just completely ignores and barges through you, I think they need a reminder that you are there and they should be listening to you. I have only had to do this a couple of times, and mostly when the new lad was new and testing boundaries, and as a big chunky cob, I wanted to make clear from the start that some things were simply not acceptable. That has since been refined with lots of groundwork and in hand schooling, and he can now be safely trusted to literally anyone to handle. 

Someone at a previous yard was very against hitting a horse at all, and very softly softly - and her horse was horrendous to handle and generally had no idea of personal space... I do strongly disagree though with those who hit hard enough to leave a mark, or out of frustration etc rather than as a safety thing.


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## diamonddogs (15 January 2013)

I've seen a few comments on this thread that imply if a horse is rude or bargy it's a training issue, or something lacking in the handler (I'm referring to those of us who have trained our horses well but they forget themselves occasionally and have to be brought up short), but how many of us can honestly say that our horse, however well trained and obedient it is, never, ever steps out of line?

How we deal with these moments will vary from handler to handler, but I resent any implication that my horse is untrained or unruly because she warrants a well-timed slap across the nose on the rare occasion when she goes to nip - and I'd like to point out it's ONLY when she goes to nip. She respects space and will move or stand on command without recourse to smacking.


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## Pale Rider (15 January 2013)

Diamonddogs, it's no use being resentful, if your horse is trying to bite you, even occasionally, you need to work out why.
Slapping isn't curing the relationship problem, try something else.


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## meandmyself (16 January 2013)

Yes. Sometimes a short sharp smack is exactly what they need.


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## AengusOg (16 January 2013)

tallyho! said:



			In Scotland?. Actually I could tie in with a visit to my cousins in Glasgow...

I'm completely up for this by the way... If you are? 

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It would be great to arrange something, any time you are up here.


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## eatmyshorts (16 January 2013)

Just a little suggestion as there seems to be a few with nipping issues - try carrying a jiffy lemon in your pocket for a few days - a couple of well aimed well timed few squirts into an open mouth Is normally all it takes. Much better than slapping his face and risking making him headshy.


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## tallyho! (16 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			It would be great to arrange something, any time you are up here. 

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Sounds fab AengusOg, thank you muchly! I'll bear in mind and you might see me yet eager to learn


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## diamonddogs (16 January 2013)

My god, Pale Rider, you're a piece of work aren't you. I don't normally get into brawls with strangers on the internet, but for you I'll make an exception.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the relationship I have with my horse, and like you keep banging on about, you haven't seen her, so you're in no position to judge.

She doesn't BITE - there's a world of difference between a bite and a nip, and the rare NIP from *a formerly abused horse* is something I can live with, knowing that a lightning quick slap done at the right time pulls her up short.

Why not accept that people are individuals too and all have different ways of doing something, mmm, instead of being sarky and condescending to anyone who throws down the challenge and says "Prove it". Cheap, snide remarks and point scoring help nobody.

FWIW, as stated earlier, my horse gets a slap on the extremely rare occasions she steps out of line in a potentially dangerous way, ie trying to nip. She came to me as a nervous, headshy creature with a history of abuse so had little trust in humans, who'd have a heart attack if you looked at her the wrong way, or would get defensive, therefore potentially dangerous. In less than a year I've turned her round into one of the most affectionate, kindest horses on our yard, with manners to die for, who would follow me to the ends of the earth, and this was done with firmness, fairness, kindness and an occasional slap if warranted - all the things you abhor, apparently, but it worked for MY horse, and if I worked with another horse that didn't respond to that way of training I'd find another way that did.

Not that I have to explain anything to you, but for the benefit of anyone watching, her stable is right next to the tea room, and the key to the tack room is kept in her stable, so everyone in the world has to pass by and some have to put their arm in to get the key. If she was a seasoned biter, do you really think she'd be in that stable?


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## Brightbay (16 January 2013)

In Scotland?. Actually I could tie in with a visit to my cousins in Glasgow...

I'm completely up for this by the way... If you are?
		
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And when you're in Glasgow, feel free to drop in on me and my unslapped 1400lb horse and his large and equally polite friends


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## tallyho! (16 January 2013)

Brightbay said:



			And when you're in Glasgow, feel free to drop in on me and my unslapped 1400lb horse and his large and equally polite friends 

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Sounds like a Scottish Summer road-trip is taking shape rather nicely


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## Ambers mum (16 January 2013)

I smack a shoulder and say no.  I don't beat them up, don't ill treat them, my girls are generally well mannered and have no hang ups, but like us they occasionally need telling when something is inappropriate.

I had to smack my little mares shoulder the other day as she decided to bite her companion but I was between them and didnt fancy my girls having a spoilt brat disagreement just with me in the middle.


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## daisydoo (16 January 2013)

Fburton - I tried the stick finger in gob with my filly this morning, she likes to nibble on my coat or anything nibblesome. Anyhoo I got as far as putting my finger in her gummy bit and she gave me her 'worming' face and stopped nibbling! Didn't annoy her she just looked slightly bemused, interesting as would have never thought to try this..


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## fburton (16 January 2013)

daisydoo said:



			Fburton - I tried the stick finger in gob with my filly this morning, she likes to nibble on my coat or anything nibblesome. Anyhoo I got as far as putting my finger in her gummy bit and she gave me her 'worming' face and stopped nibbling! Didn't annoy her she just looked slightly bemused, interesting as would have never thought to try this..
		
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Hehe, I can picture it.  A yucky-yucky-spit out face is the normal reaction to palate-poking, so I'm not surprised you saw something like that. It just shows horses find it mildly unpleasant, and if it happens as soon as a nibble is attempted they will quickly go off it.


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## fburton (16 January 2013)

Ambers mum said:



			I had to smack my little mares shoulder the other day as she decided to bite her companion but I was between them and didnt fancy my girls having a spoilt brat disagreement just with me in the middle.
		
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I think this is a good example of where smacking can avert trouble. What might the experienced "non-smackers" do instead in the same situation? I can think of a few alternatives myself, but it would be good to gets other people's ideas about this.


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## RolyPolyPony (16 January 2013)

I would if either of my 2 were being bolshy when being led or in stable but that would be the only time.  (although i'm sure neither of them really realised it was a smack!)  If they were ever naughty I would just ignore them and would go OTT on praise if they were good (it worked well for us but accept EVERY horse is different!)


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## daisydoo (16 January 2013)

I like to sternly 'back up' to correct on the most part but dangerous behaviour such as biting I tend to 'block' with my elbow, ie if my mare tries to invade my space my elbow sticking out evades but I don't really have to 'do' much else, point taken but usually body language is all that's needed.  It's tricky... Depends on horse and how they have been handled, relationship between horse and handler, you could argue in hindsight you should have done x y z in order to reinforce a leadership role on a regular basis but I do understand how a timely 'pop' can nip some dangerous behaviour in the bud.. Extreme reaction to extreme behaviour perhaps... I dont know it's hard to word things on here without fear of getting picked apart but you get my gist I hope!


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## *Maddy&Occhi* (16 January 2013)

My old mare was a nightmare to handle- kicked, dragged and all the in-between, so she got her fair share of smacks- for her safety, my own and others around, she needed to respect me. 

My new mare on the other hand is a cheeky so and so, but then she's a typical spanish  ...all she needs is a sharp "no" and she goes and hides in the corner as if all offended ...she has had a few smacks though as sometimes she over-steps the mark, although this is becoming less frequent now she's sussed who's in charge 

Horses are powerful animals and can use that against us and if bad behaviour isn't effectively dealt with, it can cause terrible accidents and can become a serious problem for both the horse, and owner.

When I say smacks, I mean a sharp tap on the shoulder- I absolutely hate people who hit their horses in the face or literally take the smacking too far that it becomes bullying or beating.


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## Amigo (16 January 2013)

Horses will bite and kick each other, I have no problem with a 'smack' on the chest or I use body language by stamping my foot at the same time as broadening my shoulders and stepping towards them, at which point they usually back off.  I also use my voice to dictate how I feel.

I would never continuously 'smack' or bully a horse though. I also rarely hit a horse on the face as this can lead to head shy issues. I would lightly give a short tap on the nose if they tried to bite and hadn't responded to my previous efforts.


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## Alyth (16 January 2013)

I would hope that if I were handling 2 of my horses at once their attention would be on me, not the other horse.  I would hope that if one of them started giving attention to the other horse I would notice it and bring their attention back to me before anything else happened......if I did miss all that and one went to bite the other I would have made myself 'big' and sent energy out.....do you know what I mean or is all this 'double dutch'??  As a last resort I would 'chicken wing' and send both horses back away from me and each other.....but then I have had my horses almost all their lives and they have learned my language!!


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## Pale Rider (16 January 2013)

Excellent post Alyth.


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## cambrica (16 January 2013)

Fburton, I really like your post re biting/nipping. My 4 y/o sec d is a bit of a nibbler and I usually just raise my elbow or push him away but I will try this out. 
The other day he got hold of an elasticated cord on my coat, pulled back and twinged it hard across my face... bl**dy hurt but a really loud OUCH ! was enough to send him to the back of the stable. 
What I realise with him though is that when I bought him a year ago he was a very well mannered, loving and pretty laid back boy and a real testament to the stud that bred him. He still is and any problems I encounter behaviour wise I will only have myself to blame because it is up to me to continue to educate him and build on that trust. In my opinion a smack would take us back ten paces and make me feel pretty cr*p. 
The two old ladies I have I could never smack. The two sec A's probably deserve a 'damn good thrashing' (joke)  cheeky monkeys!
If I see someone smacking a horse/dog/child it makes me wince and I can never really see what the benefit is.


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## Dizzy socks (17 January 2013)

fburton said:



			I think this is a good example of where smacking can avert trouble. What might the experienced "non-smackers" do instead in the same situation? I can think of a few alternatives myself, but it would be good to gets other people's ideas about this.
		
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I would also be interested to hear this.

Pale Rider...?


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## 1Lucie (17 January 2013)

Never smack my boy... Don't need to because he has ace manners. But my previous loan horse would sometimes bite v hard or turn his bum and kick out.. I would smack him and shout 'no' and always tried to get him quickly. Was never hard and obviously never with anything but my hand.


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## Alyth (18 January 2013)

Dizzy Socks - did you read my post?  And Pale Riders response?


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## cornbrodolly (18 January 2013)

Alyth and Pale rider are classic Parelli page readers. Of course you use energy , ckicken wings, rope flicking , and these are enough with your own or well trained horses. As an O H to a  N H trainer ,our horses are 'bilingual' and compete at high levels [ ie in double bridles shock horror!!], and over the years retrained some difficult animals.
Often these horses were difficult because no one had given them a short smack when neccessary, leading to deliberate biting /barging/charging. As owners had read the N H 'manuals' they wouldnt give them the smack they needed. And , yes, we did. However, unles the owners changed their habits , the horses resorted to earlier behaviours- so once again it was people training! Whoah -- yes, we taught people to smack their horses!!
 I would rather have a smacked horse than a client with bitten arms, have been truly shocked with what some owners allow their horses to get away with.
With either biters or kickers that have have been abused and are acting out of defence and fear , reprimands are cruel and counter productive, But any horseperson would know rthe difference , and I think most of the posters on here do and have acted appropriately. But to live in a fairyland world where you say you d NEVER smack a horse is well, just strange - have you seen how they reprimand eachother when one steps out of line?!


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## Pale Rider (18 January 2013)

I am always shocked by what some owners do to their horses, and even more shocked at what some trainers do.


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## Coldfeet! (18 January 2013)

Mine is well behaved all round. But if the occasion called for it if a NO didnt suffice then a short sharp shoulder slap might be used. 

I see so many people slap happy who sour their horses and its a vicious circle they cant break and I see so many people being walked over by horses who need manners instilling. 

I have to say in 30 years growling at horses is a new one on me! DO people mean they actually growl like a dog at their horses???


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## Pale Rider (18 January 2013)

Lol, quite a few growlers about. I'm of the opinion that people can growl, slap do whatever they want. Those that do all this stuff seem happy with what  they do and the results they get, that's fine by me.
I won't be doing the same.


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## cptrayes (18 January 2013)

PR are you ever going to realise that for people who are buying older horses which have been trained or mistrained by someone else, that your "advice" (which is actually normally  statements about what not to do rather that advice about how to achieve what you do)
is not helpful and in some cases could be positively dangerous?


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## Annagain (18 January 2013)

I smacked him once. He bit my boob. It hurt


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## Coldfeet! (18 January 2013)

I had a difficult filly once but I never smacked her just more groundwork did the trick, she definitely had a respect issue. 

Ive never heard of growling at horses, im sure mine would look at me like i had two heads if i did that.


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## AdorableAlice (18 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			PR are you ever going to realise that for people who are buying older horses which have been trained or mistrained by someone else, that your "advice" (which is actually normally  statements about what not to do rather that advice about how to achieve what you do)
is not helpful and in some cases could be positively dangerous?
		
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cptrayes,  you have answered your own question.  There is nothing to be realised, nothing to be achieved and no advice, be it good, bad or indifferent.

See the comments for what they are - meaningless, verbal rubbish.  Hopefully most forum users will have seen through, and laughed at, the comments.


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## siennamum (18 January 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			cptrayes,  you have answered your own question.  There is nothing to be realised, nothing to be achieved and no advice, be it good, bad or indifferent.

See the comments for what they are - meaningless, verbal rubbish.  Hopefully most forum users will have seen through, and laughed at, the comments.
		
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I find some of the advice on here so unrealistic as to be verging on dangerous sometimes. While I think most people do have a quiet snigger or roll their eyes, I do wonder how many people are influenced adversely in their management.


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## Shantara (18 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			PR are you ever going to realise that for people who are buying older horses which have been trained or mistrained by someone else, that your "advice" (which is actually normally  statements about what not to do rather that advice about how to achieve what you do)
is not helpful and in some cases could be positively dangerous?
		
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Quite right. I have no idea what happened to Ned before he came to the yard and I didn't start doing anything apart from a once a week ride until he was 10 or 11. He's come on leaps and bounds and although he had a nasty relapse that lasted about a month, we got through it! 
I've said it before (perhaps not on this thread, I don't remember) but had I had him from a baby, would it be different? I know for one thing he wouldn't have all the scars, or the lump on his nose, or be skin and bones if he started with me. He still might not be a perfect horse, but at least I would know and I could tell trainers etc exactly what had been done with/to him.
Good, well trained horses don't very often end up at the sales/meat man. It was clear he didn't have good training from _somewhere_. I am working my socks off with what I have, trying to make things as good for him as my ability allows. I'm getting somewhere, even if it's very very slow. These things do not happen quickly. 
I do feel I have to use a stern voice and the back of my hand, or a prod with my finger sometimes. It's getting less and less, but I have to be prepared to do it or I will get walked all over!


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## cptrayes (18 January 2013)

_I find some of the advice on here so unrealistic as to be verging on dangerous sometimes. While I think most people do have a quiet snigger or roll their eyes, I do wonder how many people are influenced adversely in their management._

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I worry about the people who don't yet know enough to realise either how unsafe the advice they are being given is, or who sit feeling a failure because they cannot replicate PR's "success".


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## AdorableAlice (18 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I worry about the people who don't yet know enough to realise either how unsafe the advice they are being given is, or who sit feeling a failure because they cannot replicate PR's "success".
		
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Is there a success ?  I can't be bothered to read most of his/her tosh, but the pieces I have read make absolutely no sense to me.  Having said that, I would not be the brightest.


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## Pale Rider (18 January 2013)

Interesting CPT, it seems not wanting to smack horses gets folk so wound up.

I'm not asking or expecting people to take any notice of what I do or say.

I don't think people will feel failures, why should they? 

I know you think some of the stuff I rabbit on about is dangerous, I am asking for people to achieve a high leve l of skill, which is not as dangerous as the half trained people and horses who post their experiences every day on here. Poor training in horses or people isn't safe.


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## TrasaM (18 January 2013)

I'm just beginning to understand how much energy does affect the horse. When ASBO cob would raise or pull his head when I was trying to tack him up I would speak sharply to him and grab his head. I now very gently take his face and speak quietly to him and he responds much better.
Old Charlie horse has learnt that the person with whip in hand has the power. I don't like this but have had to do it because that's better than getting bitten or kicked by him. I am working on it however. 
I had the misfortune to witness how he got this way when his owner tried to give a young horse his wormer.  After a couple if attempts the whip was produced. It just made things worse of course because now he really had a good reason to be scared. Maybe some horses can be beaten into submission but it is not the right way to do it. 
I have used the end of the lead to send a horse away and I will also raise my leg go keep them at a safe distance. I use a riding whip as an extension of my leg or arm but again never at a level to inflict pain. I suspect that human impatience lies behind most of the whacks that horses get. If my example is anything to go by.


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## AdorableAlice (18 January 2013)

siennamum said:



			I find some of the advice on here so unrealistic as to be verging on dangerous sometimes. While I think most people do have a quiet snigger or roll their eyes, I do wonder how many people are influenced adversely in their management.
		
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You are right, I do think some horse owners may think there is a 'magical' way of handling/riding horses and expect amazing results by following or adopting certain methods.


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## Pale Rider (18 January 2013)

No magic, understanding.


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## cptrayes (18 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Interesting CPT, it seems not wanting to smack horses gets folk so wound up.
		
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No, it's telling them that no-one ever needs to under any circumstances, and that it can never be productive to do so, that's the problem. 




			I'm not asking or expecting people to take any notice of what I do or say.
		
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Why are you bothering to post then  ?




			I don't think people will feel failures, why should they?
		
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You fail to understand human nature if you do not see how writing with authority that something is simple, as you often do, will cause a feeling of failure in some insecure people who are unable to do it. 




			I know you think some of the stuff I rabbit on about is dangerous, I am asking for people to achieve a high leve l of skill, which is not as dangerous as the half trained people and horses who post their experiences every day on here. Poor training in horses or people isn't safe.
		
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I would have more respect for your views if I once saw you answer a single question that people put to you about how you would achieve a specific result, but you know what - to my knowledge, you never, ever have, you simply continue to say things like




			no magic, understanding
		
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without ever using your time and skill to increase the understanding of how you achieve your results.

By your persistent failure in this regard, you force me to the conclusion that you do not really know the answers to the questions you are asked.


It' s such a shame PR, because you obviously have the time to help people on this forum, and in theory the experience to do so, and I'm sure you sincerely have the welfare of the horse at heart.


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## Pale Rider (18 January 2013)

I believe that the horse most people want is inside the horse they already have, the trick is finding that horse.

I tend not to give specific advice because without seeing the problem n the flesh the advice could be very wrong.

I just train using Natural Horsemanship techniques. No specific trainer, there are loads, just the basic simple stuff before it got to be an industry.


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## cptrayes (18 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I tend not to give specific advice because without seeing the problem n the flesh the advice could be very wrong.
		
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And yet you are perfectly happy to tell everyone, including someone who may be being walked all over by a horse that someone else has failed to train to your standards that they should never hit the horse.

That's my problem with your posting in a nutshell.


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## indie999 (18 January 2013)

I have done but if with my hand I usually end up worse off!  Depends which horse what works, old boy I could growly voice as he was dead to a whip....reckon he had rhinocerous skin! Mix of being kind using pressure(ie I could stand and just put hands up in front of his chest without touching and he would move back) but yes to back up a command if being stubborn or ****** have whacked of course. Respect .


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## Pale Rider (18 January 2013)

Cptrayes no way will I ever condone hitting horses or any other animal, it's wrong and unhelpful and doesn't work.

That's my view, you obviously think very different. Can't help you with your problems with my posting I'm afraid.


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## Dizzy socks (18 January 2013)

Alyth said:



			Dizzy Socks - did you read my post?  And Pale Riders response?
		
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Yup. So if they were both loose in the field, and you were just spending time with them, would you constantly demand their attention? I prefer to let them have breaks of me, and be able to take in other things.


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## Waffles (18 January 2013)

I only hit mine on rare occasions - when he was nipping me when I first had him, I slapped him back.  When he used to kick out at horses when we were riding, I slapped his neck.  I don't ride with a whip.  When I say I have hit him, it was with the palm of my hand.  I don't like hitting my horse.


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## cptrayes (18 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			it's wrong and unhelpful and doesn't work.

.
		
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I am happy to agree to disagree about it being wrong but you are absolutely totally incorrect when you say that it does not work, because it most certainly does.

You may choose never to use physical means to discipline your horses but to say that it does not "work" is absolutely ludicrous.

You have been asked before and failed to answer, so let me ask you again. A confirmed biter comes into your yard, how do you train it not to bite you? Specifics please.


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## AprilBlue (18 January 2013)

I would never smack a horse. There are other ways to discipline a horse than smacking it. luckily my pony isn't that naughty so he doesn't need a smack


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## Wagtail (18 January 2013)

I am a person who for many years was against any kind of hitting of horses. I am still against hitting children, or dogs etc and MOST horses. However, I have changed my mind over it in very recent times. With some types of horse personality, it is the only thing that works. I don't mean whipping or beating, just a well timed slap to the shoulder, or upwards slap or elbow to the nose for biting. Or for a horse that is running over you, a flick with the end of the rope.

However, there are some horses that hitting is a BIG 'no no'. And it takes skill and experience to recognise when it is appropriate to hit a horse. Lots of damage can be done otherwise.

Oh, and if you find you are having to hit your horse on a regular basis, then you have got it wrong!


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## Pale Rider (18 January 2013)

Ok CP, why is it biting?


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## diamonddogs (18 January 2013)

CPT, I wouldn't waste my breath if I were you...


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## hihosilver (18 January 2013)

It is like smacking a child..... Eventually horses will become scared and then behaviour will get worse. I would never smack a horse unless it was a last resort.


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## cptrayes (18 January 2013)

diamonddogs said:



			CPT, I wouldn't waste my breath if I were you... 

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I think he's already confirmed what we knew, but one more try 


PR it's biting from habit. It's got no physical issues but someone had it from a foal and thought it was OK that it nibbled, failed to correct it and ended up with an adult that bites that they gave to you. Now, how will you stop it?  Specifics please.


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## Wagtail (18 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Ok CP, why is it biting?
		
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You wouldn't know, would you, if you just acquired the horse? Could be aggression, could be fear, could be playfulness...

But CPT asked how YOU would deal with it. I am interested too.


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## cptrayes (18 January 2013)

hihosilver said:



			It is like smacking a child..... Eventually horses will become scared and then behaviour will get worse. I would never smack a horse unless it was a last resort.
		
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It's not like smacking a child -children are fragile, horses aren't, children don't have skin an inch thick, horses do, adults don't routinely biff each other to tell people what to do, adult horses do so it's a language that they fully understand

and they don't get worse. Used at the right time and in the right way, so they understand what behaviours you want them to change, they get better.


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## Shantara (18 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			You wouldn't know, would you, if you just acquired the horse? Could be aggression, could be fear, could be playfulness...

But CPT asked how YOU would deal with it. I am interested too.
		
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I'm also interested! Not because Ned bites, but I just want to know.


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## Shantara (18 January 2013)

hihosilver said:



			It is like smacking a child..... Eventually horses will become scared and then behaviour will get worse. I would never smack a horse unless it was a last resort.
		
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I was smacked a few times as a child. Didn't scare me and my behaviour didn't get worse. I was a good kid and I feel I'm a good young adult too!


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## Pale Rider (18 January 2013)

Depends what I thought was up with and what sort of horse it was.


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## Wagtail (18 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Depends what I thought was up with and what sort of horse it was.
		
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CPT told you what was up with it. Habit, due to not being corrected. What would you do?


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## RunToEarth (18 January 2013)

Naturally, animals in the wild will socialise with eachother, and boot eachother into line. 

Dairy bulls are so dangerous because on the most part they do not become socialised with other bullocks as young in larger herds, as a result they see their handler as an opposition.
In my opinion, to an extent horses are the same. They are largely not left in herds to socilaise amongst themselves and a lot of people dislike turning out with two/three plus horses because horses end up getting booted trying to establish their becking order. 

My horses are well behaved, if they went to bite me they would get a smack, or a growl. I respect them, but I expect the same in return, as much as I wouldn't beat seven bells out of them, I expect them not to boot me, push me or challenge me.


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## Wagtail (18 January 2013)

The foal at my yard liked to bite. He was playing, but it hurt. He is huge (at 8 months stands at 14.2hh). We started off very gently. Every time he went to bite pushed his nose away. Seemed to work at first, but only very briefly. His biting got bigger and harder. He thought the pushing his nnose away was a game and he would come at you with more gusto! In the end I had to resort to a sharp upwards slap to his nose ith the back of my hand. Only had to do it twice. Coupled it with a sharp verbal reprimand, and now all he needs is a 'no' and he stops whatever he is going to do. He never bites me now, but he still tries it on with people he knows who won't correct him.


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## Pale Rider (18 January 2013)

So not really cured then Wagtail.

Specifically, in that situation, I wouldn't recommend pushing his nose away because it becomes a colt see saw game. 
I'd scratch and rub his nose every time he came into my space with it looking to nip. So instead of pushi his mussel away get really busy with it. They soon get fed up with that and pack the nipping in


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## Wagtail (18 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			So not really cured then Wagtail.

Specifically, in that situation, I wouldn't recommend pushing his nose away because it becomes a colt see saw game. 
I'd scratch and rub his nose every time he came into my space with it looking to nip. So instead of pushi his mussel away get really busy with it. They soon get fed up with that and pack the nipping in
		
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Yes, sorry, we tried that for a bit. Owner is into Parelli and her instructor advised it. We did it for a couple of weeks and it just made him quicker with his nips. Would bite then leap away


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## Tinypony (18 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			So not really cured then Wagtail.

Specifically, in that situation, I wouldn't recommend pushing his nose away because it becomes a colt see saw game. 
I'd scratch and rub his nose every time he came into my space with it looking to nip. So instead of pushi his mussel away get really busy with it. They soon get fed up with that and pack the nipping in
		
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Agreed.  I've used that with a couple of nippy horses.  I can't remember if it was Buck B or Steve Halfpenny who gave me the idea.  Could this be anything to do with the fact that one then developed a liking for having his ears scrumbled??


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## siennamum (18 January 2013)

I had a large 10 month old colt threaten me this afternoon. I didn't want to hit him (he isn't mine, I don't want to scare him) I did grab a handful of snow and chuck it at him to have him back away from me. He was simply testing to see if he could get me to move. In other circumstances I would happily follow this up with a well timed smack to really stop this kind of behaviour in it;s tracks & prevent it escalating.
We have a youngster who only has to have a gentle verbal reminder to get his attention/compliance - you would never hit him or really raise you voice. Another gelding is an out and out bully I wish he had been thoroughly smacked as a baby - he might have some respect now instead of permanently pushing the boundaries. My very dominant mare hasn't had a hand raised to her more than a couple of times in 18 years and is the most obedient horse imaginable.

All horses are different, some do require more forceful handling. i have had so many horses through my hands over the years, almost without exception those owned by people who are against being firm, will walk all over their owners and have little respect. 

I would love to see some of the experts on here who advocate never raising a hand to a horse, managing a big, strong, dominant young sporthorse and would love to see some evidence that they have done so in the past before they get judgemental about how people manage their horses.


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## Pale Rider (18 January 2013)

You didn't do it right then Wagtail.


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## Wagtail (18 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			You didn't do it right then Wagtail.
		
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Obviously not. But I now have a well behaved foal here that is a pleasure to do things with and doesn't bite me any more.


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## AdorableAlice (18 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			You didn't do it right then Wagtail.
		
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Life must be trying with such a large ego to balance ones halo on.


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## AengusOg (18 January 2013)

Wow, this thread is fast-moving.

I find that a lot of people have problems with their horses' behaviours simply because they have no idea how to read a horse, and because they fail to handle the horse appropriately at all times.

Horses are very quick to take advantage of any situation where they can evade or take control of a situation, and humans often allow something to 'go'wrong' purely because they failed to pay attention.

Take a couple of examples I witnessed recently on a yard I was visiting...

The first one was a girl bringing a horse in from a field with nearly a dozen other horses in it. She walked out and caught her mare and, as she did so, her phone rang. She immediately answered the phone which meant that she had to put a white rope halter on with one hand. What she didn't notice was that she'd failed to get the poll piece of the halter over the mare's offside ear, resulting in the ear being folded over. Chatting away on her phone, the girl started to walk toward the gate. The mare didn't like the halter over her ear and, as the girl moved off, the mare threw her head about. The girl kept her phone to her ear, turned round, and shouted 'come on you b1tch' whilst yanking on the halter. Of course, the mare pulled back, so the girl slapped her across the neck with the end of the rope, the mare shot forward, and they set off at a smart walk to the gate, the girl still on the phone and the halter still over the mare's ear.

The other scenario was a girl trying to lift droppings out from under her gelding who was tied short to the wall. She yelled 'get over' and tried to shove the horse away. He leaned on her and stepped on the end of the shovel with his near hind hoof. The girl let the shovel go and slapped her horse hard on the neck. As he was tied short (nothing wrong with that) he was unable to take avoiding action, so he came round on her with his quarters, then, when she slapped him again, pulled back and went back on his hocks, then shot forward and stood trembling when the shovel clattered across the floor.

Would any horse hitters care to dissect either of those instances and offer advice?


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## Spring Feather (18 January 2013)

AengusOg, in your first scenario yes the girl was complacent however her horse, had it been taught to lead properly, shouldn't have been bothered by the halter half on, as it would be walking steadily by her side.  I doubt any of my horses would have reacted at all to this situation as many of them wear slip-ear bridles and the ones who don't have no pressure on them as they walk properly by my side.  The second scenario I'm having trouble actually figuring out the placement of everything so have no comments.


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## indie999 (18 January 2013)

Nah said:



			I was smacked a few times as a child. Didn't scare me and my behaviour didn't get worse. I was a good kid and I feel I'm a good young adult too!
		
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I was just thinking the same! I was smacked and my OH had cane at school(not saying that is right) but we turned out ok and no worse off for it(I am sure a few of the kids nowadays could do with a good smack). Now my own kids probably got a slap(not smacked) on their hand for trying to ie stick their fingers in plug sockets after being told NO etc(yes I had the protectors that the monkeys removed). Both are normal kids. And if you watch horses with mothers they do NIP their offspring to keep them in check, dogs do the same. I think its doing it for the right reason and not just out of your own masterful anger that is the dividing line. I too have had horses that I would not whack as I would be worse off. I do take the view the horses are a lot stronger than us but dont realise their own strength hence some do need to be kept in check etc. Am sure this is why there are lots of ruined horses around as people have been too soft and too wishy washy and think they are cuddly animals and then get frightened of them. Horse takes over!Ruined.


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## Wagtail (18 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			Wow, this thread is fast-moving.

I find that a lot of people have problems with their horses' behaviours simply because they have no idea how to read a horse, and because they fail to handle the horse appropriately at all times.

Horses are very quick to take advantage of any situation where they can evade or take control of a situation, and humans often allow something to 'go'wrong' purely because they failed to pay attention.

Take a couple of examples I witnessed recently on a yard I was visiting...

The first one was a girl bringing a horse in from a field with nearly a dozen other horses in it. She walked out and caught her mare and, as she did so, her phone rang. She immediately answered the phone which meant that she had to put a white rope halter on with one hand. What she didn't notice was that she'd failed to get the poll piece of the halter over the mare's offside ear, resulting in the ear being folded over. Chatting away on her phone, the girl started to walk toward the gate. The mare didn't like the halter over her ear and, as the girl moved off, the mare threw her head about. The girl kept her phone to her ear, turned round, and shouted 'come on you b1tch' whilst yanking on the halter. Of course, the mare pulled back, so the girl slapped her across the neck with the end of the rope, the mare shot forward, and they set off at a smart walk to the gate, the girl still on the phone and the halter still over the mare's ear.

The other scenario was a girl trying to lift droppings out from under her gelding who was tied short to the wall. She yelled 'get over' and tried to shove the horse away. He leaned on her and stepped on the end of the shovel with his near hind hoof. The girl let the shovel go and slapped her horse hard on the neck. As he was tied short (nothing wrong with that) he was unable to take avoiding action, so he came round on her with his quarters, then, when she slapped him again, pulled back and went back on his hocks, then shot forward and stood trembling when the shovel clattered across the floor.

Would any horse hitters care to dissect either of those instances and offer advice?
		
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Neither horse should have been hit! That is precisely what I meant when I said it takes skill and experience to know when hitting a horse is appropriate or not. Far too many slap happy people out there who hit first and ask questions afterwards. It all boils down to the same thing, poor horsemanship. 

ETA: Hitting a horse should never be with a raised hand. Hitting a horse should never be in 'reflex' or temper/annoyance. Hitting a horse should be well timed, single slap to shoulder or chest, or upwards slap with back of the hand to the nose. It is not something that usually ever needs repeating.


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## Spring Feather (18 January 2013)

indie999 said:



			Am sure this is why there are lots of ruined horses around as people have been too soft and too wishy washy and think they are cuddly animals and then get frightened of them. Horse takes over!Ruined.
		
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I totally agree with you here.  Nothing to do with smacking horses or not but the vast majority of the horses we get in for training are basically sound horses who are owned by people who don't have enough experience to own horses and are way too soft with them so yes the horses do take the lead and they get away with it because the owner doesn't know how to take charge (again, I'm not speaking about hitting the horse, just taking control).  These same horses by the end of 30 or 60 days are great equine citizens and off they go back to their owners who generally send them back again the following spring because they are having the same problems again.  Once in a while an owner will watch, listen and learn how to make life agreeable for both horse and owner, but many others don't no matter how often you tell them how to avoid certain situations.


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## Shantara (18 January 2013)

AengusOg - I wouldn't have hit the first horse. Not at all, but agree with whoever said it should be able to lead properly, even with a headcollar like that. Had I witnessed it, I might have been tempted to make her aware of the fact her headcollar wasn't on properly. I know I wouldn't take offence if someone pointed that out to me, I would be pleased.

2nd horse, hmm...I wouldn't have slapped him on the neck! Mixed signals and it was hardly the horses fault. I would have attempted to hold the end of the shovel and elbow/shove him on the rear to get him off it. At least, I know Ned would respond to that. (By elbow, I mean a continuous push, not a jab)


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## Cortez (18 January 2013)

Obviously the lack of oxygen up there on the high moral ground is affecting some people's ability to form a rational communication with the rest of the world. In the REAL world, with actual real horses and their often less than perfect owners, some of us have to affect changes in behaviour that actually work, for reasons of safety, effectiveness and practicality. Some horses, for whatever reasons - and I don't especially care what these may be - sometimes need a quick reminder; most horses, once they have got the hang of things, rarely or never do. It is my aim to produce horses of the latter type for everyone's (horse and human) future happiness and serenity.


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## fburton (18 January 2013)

Smacking can work, i.e. be effective in stopping a behaviour - no doubt about that. In that respect, I disagree with Pale Rider.

On the other hand, one sees it overused, and used ineffectually, and used in situations where a different action would have been more appropriate, and situations arise which could be avoided in the first place. None of us is perfect though - I'm certainly not! (see below)

The problem with smacking is it's a risky thing to do. Get it wrong and you can end up with a bigger problem than you started with. Horses are incredibly forgiving of our mistakes, but not infinitely so. Smacking _can_ be damaging and counterproductive, even a one-off - though often the damage is more insidious. Sometimes the horse simply becomes desensitized to attempts to punish that are too feeble.

My aversion to hitting horses stems from a dreadful mistake I made not long after I started. Due to my inexperience, I allowed a horse to bite me. It wasn't done particularly aggressively, but d*mn it hurt! So I reacted by smacking the horse across the face with my hand. In anger. In that moment I felt entirely justified. However, as a result of this one-off response, I couldn't get near this horse again for quite a while and it took several days to regain the level of trust that I had worked so patiently to build up previously. What a bl**dy fool I was.

Such was my feeling of annoyance -- and guilt -- at what I had done, replaying the event over and over in my mind's eye, that I resolved never to make that mistake again. Needless to say I did continue to smack horses, with admittedly greater success - but my motivation to _reduce_ my reliance on this convenient measure meant I did it less and less as time went by. And as I discovered and practiced ways to avoid overt physical punishment, the less it seemed to be needed. The nature of punishment very soon changed too. It became as close as I could make it to a direct consequence of a horse's action, devoid of any emotional element, and nothing like a reprimand. Consequently, I firmly believe that smacking is something worth _trying_ to avoid - something to work at avoiding.

So while I would "never say never", smacking isn't something I do freely. I know what can happen when it goes wrong, both from personal experience, and from observing others in situations just like Aengus Og's scenarios - which regrettably are all too common.


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## Ambers mum (18 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			It's not like smacking a child -children are fragile, horses aren't, children don't have skin an inch thick, horses do, adults don't routinely biff each other to tell people what to do, adult horses do so it's a language that they fully understand

and they don't get worse. Used at the right time and in the right way, so they understand what behaviours you want them to change, they get better.
		
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I agree with this.  In herd behaviour a senior horse reprimands a lower ranked horse for misbehaviour. That doesn't make the horse scared, it makes it respect (I don't mean to personify but that's the only word I can think of to explain it).  I don't not smack regulary no more than my mum smacked us, I am not frightened of my mum, and my mares are not afraid of me.  

My horses are well cared for, usually gentle and well behaved but like the best behaved they have blips where  a telling off is needed, in my case a smack, once, to the shoulder and a firm no, not a beating like the pc brigade are making out, I don't go in there all wailing and screaming with rage and belt them about their person because I am frustrated...to be honest I am never frustrated by my horses because as I said they are generally well behaved and gentle.


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## Ambers mum (18 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			Neither horse should have been hit! That is precisely what I meant when I said it takes skill and experience to know when hitting a horse is appropriate or not. Far too many slap happy people out there who hit first and ask questions afterwards. It all boils down to the same thing, poor horsemanship. 

ETA: Hitting a horse should never be with a raised hand. Hitting a horse should never be in 'reflex' or temper/annoyance. Hitting a horse should be well timed, single slap to shoulder or chest, or upwards slap with back of the hand to the nose. It is not something that usually ever needs repeating.
		
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I agree with this ^^^^


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## AengusOg (18 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			AengusOg, in your first scenario yes the girl was complacent however her horse, had it been taught to lead properly, shouldn't have been bothered by the halter half on, as it would be walking steadily by her side.  I doubt any of my horses would have reacted at all to this situation as many of them wear slip-ear bridles and the ones who don't have no pressure on them as they walk properly by my side.  The second scenario I'm having trouble actually figuring out the placement of everything so have no comments.
		
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Both scenarios are highly typical of everyday life on yards all over the country...is my point. Owners/handlers of horses expecting too much of their horses, failing to concentrate fully on the task in hand (in the first instance), not having properly trained and prepared them (in the second), then physically abusing them for their own failings.

Neither horse had been properly prepared for what had been expected of it. Very few horses are given even a basic level of simple training, such as yielding to pressure, which would set them up for a life where they respected their handlers and behaved well.

I frequently see horses handled by inept inattentive and complacent owners, and getting slapped about for making mistakes or taking advantage of situations. Horses are inclined to respond and react with predictability if handled and trained with compassion, consistency, and knowledge. Any unpredictability in horses is due to human failure to understand and prepare them. 

My point is that there is no excuse, other than ignorance of a better way, for setting horses up for a fall. It's like sitting on one's @rse all day while the kids try to bake the cake you've requested, without any recipe or advice, then belting them for making a mess in the kitchen. 

The trouble is, very few people actually accept that there is a better way, and tend to view anyone who declares that there is as a fluffy, not-really-in-touch-with-reality weirdo...or so it seems from this thread.


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## Tinypony (18 January 2013)

fburton said:



			Smacking can work, i.e. be effective in stopping a behaviour - no doubt about that. In that respect, I disagree with Pale Rider.

On the other hand, one sees it overused, and used ineffectually, and used in situations where a different action would have been more appropriate, and situations arise which could be avoided in the first place. None of us is perfect though - I'm certainly not! (see below)

The problem with smacking is it's a risky thing to do. Get it wrong and you can end up with a bigger problem than you started with. Horses are incredibly forgiving of our mistakes, but not infinitely so. Smacking _can_ be damaging and counterproductive, even a one-off - though often the damage is more insidious. Sometimes the horse simply becomes desensitized to attempts to punish that are too feeble.

My aversion to hitting horses stems from a dreadful mistake I made not long after I started. Due to my inexperience, I allowed a horse to bite me. It wasn't done particularly aggressively, but d*mn it hurt! So I reacted by smacking the horse across the face with my hand. In anger. In that moment I felt entirely justified. However, as a result of this one-off response, I couldn't get near this horse again for quite a while and it took several days to regain the level of trust that I had worked so patiently to build up previously. What a bl**dy fool I was.

Such was my feeling of annoyance -- and guilt -- at what I had done, replaying the event over and over in my mind's eye, that I resolved never to make that mistake again. Needless to say I did continue to smack horses, with admittedly greater success - but my motivation to _reduce_ my reliance on this convenient measure meant I did it less and less as time went by. And as I discovered and practiced ways to avoid overt physical punishment, the less it seemed to be needed. The nature of punishment very soon changed too. It became as close as I could make it to a direct consequence of a horse's action, devoid of any emotional element, and nothing like a reprimand. Consequently, I firmly believe that smacking is something worth _trying_ to avoid - something to work at avoiding.

So while I would "never say never", smacking isn't something I do freely. I know what can happen when it goes wrong, both from personal experience, and from observing others in situations just like Aengus Og's scenarios - which regrettably are all too common.
		
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I like this, sums it up for me.


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## diamonddogs (18 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			...it takes skill and experience to know when hitting a horse is appropriate or not. Far too many slap happy people out there who hit first and ask questions afterwards. It all boils down to the same thing, poor horsemanship. 

ETA: Hitting a horse should never be with a raised hand. Hitting a horse should never be in 'reflex' or temper/annoyance. Hitting a horse should be well timed, single slap to shoulder or chest, or upwards slap with back of the hand to the nose. It is not something that usually ever needs repeating.
		
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EXACTLY! What I've been trying to say. JFTR, even though I've been branded a horse-beater in some quarters, I don't use a whip for anything other than for directing and indicating in my groundwork, and haven't carried a whip when riding for thirty years!


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## fburton (18 January 2013)

Ambers mum said:



			In herd behaviour a senior horse reprimands a lower ranked horse for misbehaviour.
		
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Does she? (Or he?) Something like this is seen is in mare-foal interactions, but do you have other misbehaviours in mind?


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## Ambers mum (18 January 2013)

Yes when my small mare has hay and another horse leaves their pile to help her she snaps or kicks out and they leave.  My herd is just five but they maintain a hierarchy like any other....

Maybe I am a sad sac who sits watching her horses too much but that's how you learn about them...


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## Cortez (18 January 2013)

But i think if you read through this thread you will see that the majority of people say that they do, but rarely, which seems to say to me that A. It works, and B. People are judicious in the application of said smack. No one has advocated a beating as a training method; perhaps because beating and frightening horses just plain doesn't work. And soppy petting and lack of boundaries doesn't work either.


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## PandorasJar (18 January 2013)

Fburton. I see it regularly.
I have a video from last weekend of gelding winding up a mare. Little nips and shed bite back not amused, ended up taking a firm bite under his armpit, at which point he moved on to wind up the next mare!

If there is something new in the field and one of the younger/lower lot pushes their weight around to look first they'll get ears back followed up with a nip, or arse turned followed by a boot.

99% of the time they're chilled out but they have their moments of needing to keep each other in check or mad play timed.


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## TrasaM (18 January 2013)

FB and PJ.. I'm seeing the same at the moment. Mare has started to glare at a young Arab who she'd previously been ok with. His manners towards us are deteriorating and she has spotted it and I think she's recognised that he needs putting in his place. He's been very indulged by his owner so i guess the mare knows something needs to be done.


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## PandorasJar (18 January 2013)

Trasa. Our broodies first meeting of the two geldings was hilarious (after being introduced for a while next door). First one is a dope and she touched noses, snorted and he was fine. Other gelding who is a cheeky wind up got a squeal and a strike without having moved an inch. Everytime he came in her area he got this for about a fortnight and now she only does it when he tries it on. They definitely know when it's needed!


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## TrasaM (18 January 2013)

PandorasJar said:



			Trasa. Our broodies first meeting of the two geldings was hilarious (after being introduced for a while next door). First one is a dope and she touched noses, snorted and he was fine. Other gelding who is a cheeky wind up got a squeal and a strike without having moved an inch. Everytime he came in her area he got this for about a fortnight and now she only does it when he tries it on. They definitely know when it's needed!
		
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Wise girl.  they can teach us so much if we watch and listen.

Ours only defers to one of the geldings and she shares her shelter with him but will move off her food if he signals that it's his. I think he just does it to prove to her that he can. The other four geldings all step aside for her and wouldn't dare glare or try to get her food.


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## Alyth (18 January 2013)

Well done everyone, we seem to be approaching a concensus of opinion!!  Smacking less often and for serious misdemeanours!!  One thing I would like to mention.  People have talked about horses kicking and biting each other.....horses give each other warnings before resorting to that...a glare, a flick of an ear, a snakey head...so imo it does seem that we humans need to take note of what is happening before we need to resort to a smack!  If a horse is biting (for instance) due to being allowed to or because he is defending himself, or because he is an aggressive personality....so each reason would demand a different approach.  I would hate to have to handle the last - that's a Buck Brannaman situation!!  But in the easier cases I would attempt to get him backing away from me BEFORE he actually goes to bite.  So, as has been said, it is a case of being aware of the horse and what he is feeling/thinking and acting sooner rather than later.


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## indie999 (18 January 2013)

Forget the horses  I am now wondering if my kids are now damaged.... they seemed to have survived............they get good feedback on politeness, behaviour so far no arrests have been made.  But if anyone wants to try to reschool them please let me know. They are free to a good home and will make good companions to anyone with deep pockets to keep them in the manner they have become accustomed to.


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## nich (18 January 2013)

No I don't. I do use tone of voice, which I would like to learn how to replace. E.g putting sudocrem on the sore udders of my SI mare, very rarely she might lift a leg to threaten. I 'growl', leave my hand in place, and say 'good girl' and remove my hand when she puts the leg down. We have 3, none get 'hit' and you could classify them as sport horse (1 ish, 1 Andalusian, 1 1/4 shire 3/4 tb). They have all been trained with ground work. They aren't perfect,but nor am I. One day I was leading my 2 mares, one either side of me. I wasn't alert to their non verbal communication with each other and suddenly the dominant one leant across to snap at the junior mare, biting me on the nipple in the process! I stopped, shook the lead rope at her, backed her up and told her off. My fault as I should have seen it coming. She hasn't tried it again though.


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## Ellen Durow (19 January 2013)

On the rare occasions he gets a bit stroppy and pushy with me I'll slap his neck or shoulder with the flat of my hand while telling him off. I NEVER hit his face or head and I never hit him with a whip or other blunt instrument.

Fortunately, he is very attuned to voice commands and tones of voice so he understands when his behaviour has been inappropriate.

If you do hit your horse it must be instant, ie within 10 seconds of the offence, otherwise s/he can't associate the punishment with the "offence"


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## Alyth (19 January 2013)

Ellen Durow said:



			On the rare occasions he gets a bit stroppy and pushy with me I'll slap his neck or shoulder with the flat of my hand while telling him off. I NEVER hit his face or head and I never hit him with a whip or other blunt instrument.

Fortunately, he is very attuned to voice commands and tones of voice so he understands when his behaviour has been inappropriate.

If you do hit your horse it must be instant, ie within 10 seconds of the offence, otherwise s/he can't associate the punishment with the "offence"
		
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It must be instant yes - but not 10 seconds later.  .1 of a second is more like it!!


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## popeyesno1fan (19 January 2013)

I havn't yet, but wouldn't be afraid to, if need be. He has never put a foot wrong, so have never needed to/ I would only do so if it was a dangerous situation. Cant even name one of the top of my head, but will keep ye updated. Maybe like if he wasn;t keeping to the edge of the road and a huge truck was coming, then maybe, but it would have to be drastic. xx


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## Fii (19 January 2013)

Coming into this really late and have not read all of the thread so excuse me if i am repeating anything!
 There are instances where a sharp shock of a slap will stop bad behaviour in its tracks and avert a nasty accident!  When we first got our Shire (now sadly gone) he was a bit on the bargy side, he wasnt nasty but being a big horse would try and walk through you and nearly trapped me by the gate a few times, a hard slap on his chest and and saying "NO!!" only a couple of times put him in his place, and he started to respect my space! I would like to add that we had over ten years with him, driving and riding and he was the best horse ever, never shy of me , but a big horse like that allowed to get away with bad manners can become a danger to its handler!


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## Pale Rider (19 January 2013)

fburton said:



			Smacking can work, i.e. be effective in stopping a behaviour - no doubt about that. In that respect, I disagree with Pale Rider.

On the other hand, one sees it overused, and used ineffectually, and used in situations where a different action would have been more appropriate, and situations arise which could be avoided in the first place. None of us is perfect though - I'm certainly not! (see below)

The problem with smacking is it's a risky thing to do. Get it wrong and you can end up with a bigger problem than you started with. Horses are incredibly forgiving of our mistakes, but not infinitely so. Smacking _can_ be damaging and counterproductive, even a one-off - though often the damage is more insidious. Sometimes the horse simply becomes desensitized to attempts to punish that are too feeble.

My aversion to hitting horses stems from a dreadful mistake I made not long after I started. Due to my inexperience, I allowed a horse to bite me. It wasn't done particularly aggressively, but d*mn it hurt! So I reacted by smacking the horse across the face with my hand. In anger. In that moment I felt entirely justified. However, as a result of this one-off response, I couldn't get near this horse again for quite a while and it took several days to regain the level of trust that I had worked so patiently to build up previously. What a bl**dy fool I was.

Such was my feeling of annoyance -- and guilt -- at what I had done, replaying the event over and over in my mind's eye, that I resolved never to make that mistake again. Needless to say I did continue to smack horses, with admittedly greater success - but my motivation to _reduce_ my reliance on this convenient measure meant I did it less and less as time went by. And as I discovered and practiced ways to avoid overt physical punishment, the less it seemed to be needed. The nature of punishment very soon changed too. It became as close as I could make it to a direct consequence of a horse's action, devoid of any emotional element, and nothing like a reprimand. Consequently, I firmly believe that smacking is something worth _trying_ to avoid - something to work at avoiding.

So while I would "never say never", smacking isn't something I do freely. I know what can happen when it goes wrong, both from personal experience, and from observing others in situations just like Aengus Og's scenarios - which regrettably are all too common.
		
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Obviously you are right when you say that smacking can be effective in stopping a behaviour, so in that I am wrong, specifically. However, what I was trying to say albeit impatiently, was that it never works because it causes other issues and is always detrimental to the relationship between you and your horse. I am impressed by the rest of your post which I feel accurately describes many scenarios. I know you shouldn't say never, but, I don't always follow what you should do, so in this regard, I am content to say never in respect of smacking. In the long term, I think this is more beneficial, to both horse and person.


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## siennamum (19 January 2013)

nich said:



			No I don't. I do use tone of voice, which I would like to learn how to replace. E.g putting sudocrem on the sore udders of my SI mare, very rarely she might lift a leg to threaten. I 'growl', leave my hand in place, and say 'good girl' and remove my hand when she puts the leg down. We have 3, none get 'hit' and you could classify them as sport horse (1 ish, 1 Andalusian, 1 1/4 shire 3/4 tb). They have all been trained with ground work. They aren't perfect,but nor am I. One day I was leading my 2 mares, one either side of me. I wasn't alert to their non verbal communication with each other and suddenly the dominant one leant across to snap at the junior mare, biting me on the nipple in the process! I stopped, shook the lead rope at her, backed her up and told her off. My fault as I should have seen it coming. She hasn't tried it again though.
		
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this is an interesting thought process on your part.

the horse BIT you on the chest. (at face height for a smaller person/child) It was indifferent to your presence. It was dominating the situation and calling the shots about where you went and how you got there and you think you were in the wrong.

In return for living in penury and being a slave to my horses I really feel it is reasonable that they don't damage me and that anyone should be able to bring them in from the field without being expert in horse language or tough enough to stand being bitten.

In your place I would have absolutely hit the offending horse - It would have been slapped with the end of the lead rope probably, the whole scenario would have probably been a bit messy with a lot of shouting and interesting language, but horse would be under no illusion that it acts with some respect around people in future.


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## Pale Rider (19 January 2013)

siennamum said:



			this is an interesting thought process on your part.

the horse BIT you on the chest. (at face height for a smaller person/child) It was indifferent to your presence. It was dominating the situation and calling the shots about where you went and how you got there and you think you were in the wrong.

In return for living in penury and being a slave to my horses I really feel it is reasonable that they don't damage me and that anyone should be able to bring them in from the field without being expert in horse language or tough enough to stand being bitten.

In your place I would have absolutely hit the offending horse - It would have been slapped with the end of the lead rope probably, the whole scenario would have probably been a bit messy with a lot of shouting and interesting language, but horse would be under no illusion that it acts with some respect around people in future.
		
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siennamum, I'd understand you being upset at getting bitten, but if this happened where the horse has bitten by mistake as I understand the post, would your reaction be more out of vengance, or would you be teaching it not to make mistakes in future.

Nich is reaction seems more in line with my thinking in as much as the horse has stepped out of line by exhibiting such behaviour when Nich, the leader is present, and that horse has no business behavinig like that when she is in the equasion.


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## siennamum (19 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			siennamum, I'd understand you being upset at getting bitten, but if this happened where the horse has bitten by mistake as I understand the post, would your reaction be more out of vengance, or would you be teaching it not to make mistakes in future.

Nich is reaction seems more in line with my thinking in as much as the horse has stepped out of line by exhibiting such behaviour when Nich, the leader is present, and that horse has no business behavinig like that when she is in the equasion.
		
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Education and vengeance because I would be mad!

When I am leading them in, I am in charge, no arguments!


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## Pale Rider (19 January 2013)

siennamum said:



			Education and vengeance because I would be mad!

When I am leading them in, I am in charge, no arguments!
		
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How do you ensure there are no arguments?


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 January 2013)

I do not have to explain why, nor will I . But I do  and still do. 

 When the situation comes and a smack is needed  I do with voice commands.

My horses rarely need it,but when a livery wont stand yanks his foot away when picking feet out, lashes out at me  threatens to bite, threatens to kick horses when I bring them in. Then yes.
A quick smack on shoulder with back of hand its used, 

I use in those situation and others its never without justification, and ALWAYS  when the horse(s) showed bad manners.  I am a stickler for good manners. When they are in my space  and under my handling, I wont tolerate bad manners, they have 23 hrs to do what they want.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Obviously you are right when you say that smacking can be effective in stopping a behaviour, so in that I am wrong, specifically. However, what I was trying to say albeit impatiently, was that it never works because it causes other issues and is always detrimental to the relationship between you and your horse..
		
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This is absolute nonsense. People comment on the fabulous relationship I have with my horses. I never tie them up to do anything with them. I even rasp their feet with them loose. (I know it's dangerous, folks, but it's  my choice as an adult so no comments please.)

And I have, at the right moment for the right thing, hit every one of them at one time or another (rarely, but when it will achieve a result).

My shetland used to nibble, as all two year olds will. He was scratched on the nose and I massaged his lips, which he adored. But even so, one day he went to bite me, and I smacked his nose hard. Once. 

He never bit again. At five I sold him to a home with children where he would have more fun than I could give him and the vet who saw him at his new place commented on what a beautifully behaved pony he was for a shetland. 

Judicious use of physical correction (hitting) DOES work and DOES NOT destroy your relationship with your horse.


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## Pale Rider (19 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			This is absolute nonsense. People comment on the fabulous relationship I have with my horses. I never tie them up to do anything with them. I even rasp their feet with them loose. (I know it's dangerous, folks, but it's  my choice as an adult so no comments please.)

And I have, at the right moment for the right thing, hit every one of them at one time or another (rarely, but when it will achieve a result).

My shetland used to nibble, as all two year olds will. He was scratched on the nose and I massaged his lips, which he adored. But even so, one day he went to bite me, and I smacked his nose hard. Once. 

He never bit again. At five I sold him to a home with children where he would have more fun than I could give him and the vet who saw him at his new place commented on what a beautifully behaved pony he was for a shetland. 

Judicious use of physical correction (hitting) DOES work and DOES NOT destroy your relationship with your horse.
		
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Well anyone can come on here romancing about what a good job they've done slapping their horses round. I don't like it and I don't think it's a good idea telling people it is.

Your're a hitter, I'm not, live with it.


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Well anyone can come on here romancing about what a good job they've done slapping their horses round. I don't like it and I don't think it's a good idea telling people it is.

Your're a hitter, I'm not, live with it.
		
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 there is a difference between slapping a horse around  and giving it a smack and saying *NO* or *bad boy *



			Originally Posted by Pale Rider View Post  was that it never works because it causes other issues and is always detrimental to the relationship between you and your horse..
		
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 A "hitter" is a strong word for a method of discipline, there is a huge difference between a smack and hit which refers to hitting with an object IMO

 You cannot say it causes, you can say it might cause.  
You state that when you have no clue of the situation and how the individual horse reacts to a smack. And to say it always  is detrimental to the relationship is total poppycock.


 I smacked my mare before we had a fantastic relationship, it would take too long to explain all the things she did for me including saving me from a dunking.  She trusted me 100% of the time and it showed in the situations we met in our lives when we met life of death situations.

  That mare and I were so close not even steaming us like a stamp off a letter would separate us.

 You are entitled to your views about smacking but to tell us here that it will like your word is gospel well its not.


  There are thousands of horses that have been reprimanded in this way and have turned out 100% better for it. 

   Maybe if they brought back smacking kids on the bum  there would not be so many unruly ones around.  A smack on the bum is IMO the best way to get respect after the initial warning.  I know first hand excuse the pun lol


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I even rasp their feet with them loose. (I know it's dangerous, folks, but it's  my choice as an adult so no comments please.)
		
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 Sorry had to post after you said not too, you are bad for doing that , that is not professional CP shame on you 

  We do this for donkey farrier goes in trims her feet in the field totally loose she stands there no problem.


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## Pale Rider (19 January 2013)

Well thats it then Cptrayes, Leviathan agrees with you, therefore I win hands down, there is no recovery for you from this fatal blow.


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Well thats it then Cptrayes, Leviathan agrees with you, therefore I win hands down, there is no recovery for you from this fatal blow.

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What a childish comment you really do surpasses  all others. 

 It has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with a member.
 This is my views on the subject, as I am sure that 75% at least on this forum has smacked their horse one time or another.   Are you going to preach to everyone on this forum or just a select few??

   You defy reality with your comments sometimes.

 In  our world (reality)  there are times when discipline is needed.   If you had practiced you sugary ways on some of the horses I have come across you would either have been kicked to death or have a   scar for life.  Hey ho what ever floats your boat.  I bet in your world if it does not have perfect manners you shoot it.



 He stands alone.  The World of   The Paler Rider, where unicorns play and the albatross thrives -   he has the powers to rule.  If you don't obey or question his ways your court marshaled then - shot.


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## AengusOg (19 January 2013)

Leviathan said:



			My horses rarely need it,but when a livery wont stand yanks his foot away when picking feet out, lashes out at me  threatens to bite, threatens to kick horses when I bring them in. Then yes.
A quick smack on shoulder with back of hand its used, 

I use in those situation and others its never without justification, and ALWAYS  when the horse(s) showed bad manners.  I am a stickler for good manners. When they are in my space  and under my handling, I wont tolerate bad manners, they have 23 hrs to do what they want.
		
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It's like that on many livery yards. 

However....I say that all these 'problems' you've outlined could be avoided if each of the offending horses had their individual foibles addressed.  

My approach would be to create a relationship with each horse so that they are respectful and compliant with me. Each of them then becomes reliable to handle and, as a bonus, better behaved as a group.

I worked with a horse which kicked out at others in the stable block. No-one could bring horses past this horse without fear of being kicked out at. I worked with the people concerned and helped them all to help the horse understand that it must be respectful of each of them when they approached. Each person learned to be assertive and calm when approaching the horse, and each of them taught the horse to move away when they walked purposefully toward its quarters.

Then each of them went about the yard and every time they had to pass the horse, they'd cause it to yield quietly and without aggression. Then, when they approached with another horse, the 'offending' horse saw them, not their horse, as someone who should be respected.

The kicking stopped.


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## Cortez (19 January 2013)

Well, good for you. Honestly, this thread takes the award for densest layer of twaddle so far in 2013.


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## diamonddogs (19 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Well anyone can come on here romancing about what a good job they've done slapping their horses round. I don't like it and I don't think it's a good idea telling people it is.

Your're a hitter, I'm not, live with it.
		
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I really can't make up my mind about you, PR. Half the time I think you're deliberately winding us all up, the other half I think you're arrogant, intolerant and incapable of seeing any other point of view to your own.

I, like everyone else who's been on this thread with a sensible reply, occasionally give my horse a slap - upside the nose within a nanosecond of a threat to nip, coupled with a "No bites!" command. This is the only transgression nowadays - the REAL biting, threatening to kick, barging, rearing when being led etc have disappeared - she knows how to behave around humans, whoever they are. So, the threat to nip is the tombstone of her old behaviour which she came to me with.

We CAN live with the fact that you don't hit, but what's p!ssing everyone off is you trying to make the rest of us look like a bunch of habitual, violent thugs (oh yes, and your complete inability to give direct answers to direct questions), not the fact that you won't hit.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Well anyone can come on here romancing about what a good job they've done slapping their horses round. I don't like it and I don't think it's a good idea telling people it is.

Your're a hitter, I'm not, live with it.
		
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I'm quite happy to live with it PR, and so are my well behaved boys, but I will not allow you to go unchallenged telling people that they will ruin their relationship if they slap their horse occasionally.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2013)

Leviathan said:



			Sorry had to post after you said not too, you are bad for doing that , that is not professional CP shame on you 

  We do this for donkey farrier goes in trims her feet in the field totally loose she stands there no problem.

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I even put their feet up on a stand (one at a time, of course  )  If a horse won't let me pull its mane without tying up it doesn't get pulled, but there is nothing else I can think of that I can't do without restraining my horses. I also pick off painful mud fever scabs (rarely need to) and treat injuries (too often, they are boisterious boys with each other ).  I must have such a bad relationship with them, though, because I've smacked them all  

I'm not saying this about my relationship with them to boast (because I don't actually think it's particularly clever, most people could do it), I am saying it to tell people that they will NOT destroy their relationship with their horse if they smack it when it can understand why you have done it.


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## Pale Rider (19 January 2013)

diamonddogs said:



			I really can't make up my mind about you, PR. Half the time I think you're deliberately winding us all up, the other half I think you're arrogant, intolerant and incapable of seeing any other point of view to your own.

I, like everyone else who's been on this thread with a sensible reply, occasionally give my horse a slap - upside the nose within a nanosecond of a threat to nip, coupled with a "No bites!" command. This is the only transgression nowadays - the REAL biting, threatening to kick, barging, rearing when being led etc have disappeared - she knows how to behave around humans, whoever they are. So, the threat to nip is the tombstone of her old behaviour which she came to me with.

We CAN live with the fact that you don't hit, but what's p!ssing everyone off is you trying to make the rest of us look like a bunch of habitual, violent thugs (oh yes, and your complete inability to give direct answers to direct questions), not the fact that you won't hit.
		
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It is deliberate, 

""but what's p!ssing everyone off is you trying to make the rest of us look like a bunch of habitual, violent thugs ""  Not everyone it seems,


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## cptrayes (19 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			It is deliberate, 

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Then it is also pathetic and given your unwillingness to answer any question put to you it makes you no better than a troll and a lot less entertaining.


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## Spring Feather (19 January 2013)

Am I correct in saying that Palerider you have an AQHA?  Do you have more than one horse or just the one quarter horse?  I've read your posts on this thread in mild amusement.  Mainly because you will not answer simple questions other posters have asked you.  I wondered if you just didn't know, lack of experience or something, but then I remembered you mentioning you had a quarter horse at some point and it all clicked into place for me.  

Quarter horses have to be one of THE most sane, sensible and easy to work with horses around.  I have loads of quarter horses and I can't remember the last time I ever laid a hand on any of them, if I ever have!  The TBs and the big WBs on the other hand, yes they've had fingers pointed at them and told off over the years, and especially when an incredibly bolshy one first comes here I may have to dig my elbow into the great big yobs neck if it is having trouble listening to me.  But the quarter horses, including the babies, are almost born with huge respect for their handlers and it's so rare to even have to raise a voice to any of them.  

Soooo I'm wondering if this is just it?  Most other posters on here are not handling uber-gentle quarter horses so perhaps give them a bit of consideration on how they handle their horses?  I haven't read anyone saying they beat their horses, they are giving them one physical reprimand immediately after the horse has behaved inappropriately.   Maybe time to lay off some of these guys?


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Then it is also pathetic and given your unwillingness to answer any question put to you it makes you no better than a troll and a lot less entertaining.
		
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PSML

 My mare I lost ground tied too I could walk out the school and come back, the boy is in training to ground tie. 
 Also the mare I lost was so good to shoe she had an invisible rope most of the time.  

 Sounds like you have a horrid relationship with your horses CP  they don't trust you don't like you and they are borderline neglected as you don't care enough to tie them up.  

 As for




			I also pick off painful mud fever scabs (rarely need to) and treat injuries
		
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 Don't give us that old pony you sedate them first, I know  you do because the horses mistrust you so much.

 My boy is America Quater Horse his dad is Segehill Gold, unlike his dad and his mum ( late mare ) he is a little git sometimes and needs reprimanding.


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## Pale Rider (19 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Then it is also pathetic and given your unwillingness to answer any question put to you it makes you no better than a troll and a lot less entertaining.
		
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But I'm entertained by you


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## Tinypony (19 January 2013)

Re quarter horses - I think that's a sweeping generalisation (not to say that PR's quarter horse isn't a little sweety...).  Some quarter horses are like Ferrari's, and prized for that.  They're not easy at all, but they're "honest".  I have a friend who has a passion for that style of quarter horse, I must admit he doesn't hit them and wouldn't do anything as direct as smack them on the face for biting - particularly if it was his stallion.  The approach would be more along the lines of redirection.

I suppose this thread shows just how passionate people can get when they feel challenged?  I mean that about both sides of the fence.  Also that more than one thing can work with horses, whatever individuals feel about how fair or right it is.

I used to be of the smacking for biting, growling, shouting frame of mind.  And I would raise my whip away from my horse for a "corrective" tap/smack when I felt that my horse was deliberately disobeying my aids.  More training and a wider exposure to other approaches to horse training, which are far from being in the Fluffy Bunny category, have changed that.  I can honestly say that I haven't smacked my horse with my whip to reinforce a ridden aid for probably 8 years.  Smacking to reprimand has been even longer than that.  I'm not preaching, I'm not accusing anyone else of doing anything wrong, but I am aware that things can be done differently - with any horse.

One thing that makes me uncomfortable with the direct physical reprimand is the room for misunderstanding.  How confident are we that our aids are never confusing for our horses?  Their senses are so much more effective than ours, they see so much further, if they spot something worrying that we can't and it bothers them, is if fairer to redirect their attention with or without smacking them with a whip?

Some time ago I had my little old gelding on the yard for a groom and a hoof trim.  He was being a complete pain in the posterior, shuffling, swinging his bum about, waving his head.  He's not like that normally, but just sometimes he can be very restless, and it was extremely frustrating when I had things to do.  I think many people would have given him what is often called a "growl" and a "smack" as a reprimand for being... disrespectful...  Anyway, I decided to take him the other side of the gate into the field and work him round a bit, then return to the yard to offer him a resting place at the tie-up area (as per Mark Rashid and many others).  As soon as he got on the grass he let out a huge, pitiful sigh, stretched out and peed for what seemed like hours.  I felt I had been a bit dense, back we went, and of course he stood like a dream.  If I'd smacked him and growled at him I would have been acting purely on my perception of what was going on and not really giving him a fair chance I think.


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## Pale Rider (19 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Am I correct in saying that Palerider you have an AQHA?  Do you have more than one horse or just the one quarter horse?  I've read your posts on this thread in mild amusement.  Mainly because you will not answer simple questions other posters have asked you.  I wondered if you just didn't know, lack of experience or something, but then I remembered you mentioning you had a quarter horse at some point and it all clicked into place for me.  

Quarter horses have to be one of THE most sane, sensible and easy to work with horses around.  I have loads of quarter horses and I can't remember the last time I ever laid a hand on any of them, if I ever have!  The TBs and the big WBs on the other hand, yes they've had fingers pointed at them and told off over the years, and especially when an incredibly bolshy one first comes here I may have to dig my elbow into the great big yobs neck if it is having trouble listening to me.  But the quarter horses, including the babies, are almost born with huge respect for their handlers and it's so rare to even have to raise a voice to any of them.  

Soooo I'm wondering if this is just it?  Most other posters on here are not handling uber-gentle quarter horses so perhaps give them a bit of consideration on how they handle their horses?  I haven't read anyone saying they beat their horses, they are giving them one physical reprimand immediately after the horse has behaved inappropriately.   Maybe time to lay off some of these guys?
		
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Glad you like QH's, I do have Arabs and PB Arabs as well. I do have every other breed you can think of come here though.


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Am I correct in saying that Palerider you have an AQHA?
		
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 sorry to nit Pick  SP
 don't you mean AQH  

A   American
Q  Quater
H  Horse
A  Association

 My AQH  is so clever, always looks of ways to get rugs down, work things out etc  he is like a squirrel, he works things out to get what he wants, that said he is a git too.  He is like Johnny Five in Short Circuit  always wants input thrives on input.


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## Spring Feather (19 January 2013)

Oh maybe there's a bit of misinterpretation on my part, on this thread.  I thought by 'smack' this meant people smacking with their hand or elbow.  If it's about whips then I've never whipped a horse for well over 30 years and never felt the need to, but I have thrown rubber buckets at some if they are causing trouble in the field which could likely end in injury.  I have dug my elbows into their necks when they get a bit bolshy in-hand and I will give them a bit of a boot in the ribs if they aren't paying attention to me under saddle.  If a horse went to bite me then yes I would absolutely smack it with my hand or thump it with my fist on the neck.  As said before, I probably give some form of physical reprimand maybe twice in a year.  Handling the amount of horses I do on a daily basis, versus the one-horse-owner, that probably equates to one smack to one horse every 25 years!


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## Pale Rider (19 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Oh maybe there's a bit of misinterpretation on my part, on this thread.  I thought by 'smack' this meant people smacking with their hand or elbow.  If it's about whips then I've never whipped a horse for well over 30 years and never felt the need to, but I have thrown rubber buckets at some if they are causing trouble in the field which could likely end in injury.  I have dug my elbows into their necks when they get a bit bolshy in-hand and I will give them a bit of a boot in the ribs if they aren't paying attention to me under saddle.  If a horse went to bite me then yes I would absolutely smack it with my hand or thump it with my fist on the neck.  As said before, I probably give some form of physical reprimand maybe twice in a year.  Handling the amount of horses I do on a daily basis, versus the one-horse-owner, that probably equates to one smack to one horse every 25 years!
		
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So do you inhale or not.


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## Spring Feather (19 January 2013)

Leviathan said:



			sorry to nit Pick  SP
 don't you mean AQH  

A   American
Q  Quater
H  Horse
A  Association

 My AQH  is so clever, always looks of ways to get rugs down, work things out etc  he is like a squirrel, he works things out to get what he wants, that said he is a git too.  He is like Johnny Five in Short Circuit  always wants input thrives on input.
		
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Is that how they are written about over there?  LOL now that IS really weird to me   I have never ever seen a quarter written about or spoken about as an AQH.  Too funny, the strange differences between us over here in north America and you over there   It's true what they say, you learn something new every day, but in this case I'm afraid I could never say an AQH, I'd be laughed out of town


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## Wagtail (19 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Am I correct in saying that Palerider you have an AQHA?  Do you have more than one horse or just the one quarter horse?  I've read your posts on this thread in mild amusement.  Mainly because you will not answer simple questions other posters have asked you.  I wondered if you just didn't know, lack of experience or something, but then I remembered you mentioning you had a quarter horse at some point and it all clicked into place for me.  

Quarter horses have to be one of THE most sane, sensible and easy to work with horses around.  I have loads of quarter horses and I can't remember the last time I ever laid a hand on any of them, if I ever have!  The TBs and the big WBs on the other hand, yes they've had fingers pointed at them and told off over the years, and especially when an incredibly bolshy one first comes here I may have to dig my elbow into the great big yobs neck if it is having trouble listening to me.  But the quarter horses, including the babies, are almost born with huge respect for their handlers and it's so rare to even have to raise a voice to any of them.  

Soooo I'm wondering if this is just it?  Most other posters on here are not handling uber-gentle quarter horses so perhaps give them a bit of consideration on how they handle their horses?  I haven't read anyone saying they beat their horses, they are giving them one physical reprimand immediately after the horse has behaved inappropriately.   Maybe time to lay off some of these guys?
		
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I think you may have hit the nail on the head there, SF.


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## Spring Feather (19 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			So do you inhale or not.

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Lol   Can you see how quickly I backpeddled when I realised that smacking meant whipping   In my shock, there was a little bit of inhaling, but not much, had to concentrate on my fingers getting everything down as quickly as I could


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## Pale Rider (19 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Lol   Can you see how quickly I backpeddled when I realised that smacking meant whipping   In my shock, there was a little bit of inhaling, but not much, had to concentrate on my fingers getting everything down as quickly as I could 

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Fun this isn't it.


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## Wagtail (19 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Lol   Can you see how quickly I backpeddled when I realised that smacking meant whipping   In my shock, there was a little bit of inhaling, but not much, had to concentrate on my fingers getting everything down as quickly as I could 

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I didn't read this thread as meaning whipping either.  Again, no, I NEVER whip a horse.


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## Janah (19 January 2013)

Never slapped my boy, no point.  The only time I have reprimanded him for barging out of the stable and nearly squashing me was to make him go back in and come out again calmly, took three goes, he learnt not a good idea.

If he pushes his luck, rarely, he gets a dig in whatever is closest with my knuckles.  Seems to work for us.  Maybe I have a laid back calm chappie.  He is stronger and capable of using his strength against me so don't even see it as an option.

I would never hit him on the head or any where near.


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## AengusOg (19 January 2013)

Cortez said:



			Well, good for you. Honestly, this thread takes the award for densest layer of twaddle so far in 2013.
		
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What are you talking about?


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## Tinypony (19 January 2013)

Well, to clarify, I haven't smacked with hand or whip for many years.  The horses are still nice to be around and ride though.  I'm into Arabs if that means anything.  And Arab crosses.  And have been into fat coloured cobs.  And TB's. Oh, and of course my beloved Tiny (Fat) Pony.  )
Mind you, on many discussions here people talk about smacking with whips, so I think it probably counts in the discussion.
Cortez - just because some people have found a different way of doing things that works and they are very happy with - it doesn't mean they are talking twaddle.  If you think that is it worth widening your horsey horizons a bit?
What I can't get my head around to be honest is that somewhere in this thread we even strayed into the realms of what read to me as instructions on the correct way to smack...


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## Shantara (19 January 2013)

Tinypony said:



			Well, to clarify, I haven't smacked with hand or whip for many years.  The horses are still nice to be around and ride though.  I'm into Arabs if that means anything.  And Arab crosses.  And have been into fat coloured cobs.  And TB's. Oh, and of course my beloved Tiny (Fat) Pony.  )
Cortez - just because some people have found a different way of doing things that works and they are very happy with - it doesn't mean they are talking twaddle.  If you think that is it worth widening your horsey horizons a bit?
		
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The way I see it, most of us are getting annoyed with the attitude of PR. I don't like hitting Ned and I don't do it for the sake of it. If I could find a way of working with him, where I was certain I would never ever feel the need to give him a slap for whatever reason, I would do that!
I'm simply not good enough yet. Maybe I will be one day, but not now.
PR was wrong, it DOES make me feel stupid, that I don't know all the things he apparently does and the way he says things rubs it in. 
I am all for riding without pain and violence, Neddy is my whole world and if I can do something to make him more comfortable, I will.

I do like the morals PR holds, I would love to have that with Ned...but I REALLY don't like the way he goes about trying to put points across. It drives me away, rightly or wrongly, I just don't want to listen to him.


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## Spring Feather (19 January 2013)

Nah said:



			The way I see it, most of us are getting annoyed with the attitude of PR. I don't like hitting Ned and I don't do it for the sake of it. If I could find a way of working with him, where I was certain I would never ever feel the need to give him a slap for whatever reason, I would do that!
I'm simply not good enough yet. Maybe I will be one day, but not now.
PR was wrong, it DOES make me feel stupid, that I don't know all the things he apparently does and the way he says things rubs it in. 
I am all for riding without pain and violence, Neddy is my whole world and if I can do something to make him more comfortable, I will.

I do like the morals PR holds, I would love to have that with Ned...but I REALLY don't like the way he goes about trying to put points across. It drives me away, rightly or wrongly, I just don't want to listen to him.
		
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Well said Nah.  This is kind of where I am at.  I never say never, and I've lived my life not whipping any horse for many years as I just do not believe that this is necessary.  At least it's not necessary in my life with horses.  I do see Paleriders points and I also am against hitting horses, however there are the odd moment which might happen once in a blue moon, maybe once every few years where there is one particular horse who needs more than just a tweak here and there and they do need and deserve physical reprimand.  I don't know how old PR is but I get the impression younger than me.  Not that that is necessarily of interest or worthy of noting, but I will say that more than 30 years I did not see much wrong with giving a horse a slap willy nilly.  As I grew and figured out more and more how horses were wired I am more leaning towards the side of not smacking horse ... end of story.  It's not becoming a fluffy bunny, it's just that I got a fright about 35 years ago when I dealt with a situation that nowadays I would not deal with in the same manner.  We grow older, we gain more experience so we grow wiser and we change our attitudes.  I'm the same with horses being euthanised.  Many years ago I was very hard (like many of the posters on here) about euthansia, nowadays I am very much different in my thinking about what it right and what is wrong (in my mind).  I am definitely not one who would have an old horse put down just because it's old.  Maybe when you yourself get older you do see things differently, and you do view older animals in a different vein.  And the same is said for smacking horses.  I've grown so much in my time on this earth and there's a lot about PR's philosophys (although I must admit to probably assuming things about his philosophys because he doesn't actually state what they are) that ring true and right with me.  I do not enjoy smacking horses and for the most part I do not do this, BUT there is always the one who might just push those boundaries who do respect and learn from a swift knock down!

That is all.


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## Fii (19 January 2013)

All horses are different, my old shire, a smack (with the hand) was all it took to correct him on the ground, he never needed it when driving or riding, that is when voice control came into work!
 Another horse i had (mare) you couldnt smack, whether riding or ground work, it wouldnt have helped it would have made her panic, so again used voice control , the same with my Arab gelding, his fears take over, so you just cannot raise a hand to him (not that i have ever had to) i cant even carry a lunge whip near him!
 So in conclusion you have to know the horse and its temperament !


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## Alyth (20 January 2013)

I find it really interesting that so many people find it necessary to administer a slap - occasionally - 'to remind them' or 'keep them in line'......no-one has talked about what caused the behaviour that needed a 'reminder'.....something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct....


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## siennamum (20 January 2013)

Alyth said:



			I find it really interesting that so many people find it necessary to administer a slap - occasionally - 'to remind them' or 'keep them in line'......no-one has talked about what caused the behaviour that needed a 'reminder'.....something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct....
		
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Why use the word 'threatened'. I can't think of a situation where my horses have felt threatened on the yard. They may feel a bit cheeky or fresh, they may feel mulish because they don't want to have to work, they may want to go out quicker than I let them, or come in later than I want them to, they may want peace and quiet or to eat their feeds when I want to change their rugs, or not want another horse so close to them when they've just had a scrap in the field. My horses have incredibly interesting and complex lives, they have a myriad of reasons for behaving the way they do.

I am always surprised that people who advocate NH and similar boil horse behaviour down to such simple explanations and miss so much of the detail in the way the rest of us interact with our horses and the way they interact with each other. My horses constantly interest and surprise me, it's frustrating at times, but fascinating.


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## Shantara (20 January 2013)

Alyth said:



			I find it really interesting that so many people find it necessary to administer a slap - occasionally - 'to remind them' or 'keep them in line'......no-one has talked about what caused the behaviour that needed a 'reminder'.....something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct....
		
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Last time I did it was in the stable, quite a while back when I started training him again. 
He had a fear of stables and even once broke the door off it's hinges!
I was grooming him and I noticed him getting a bit restless. So I stopped grooming and stroked his neck and spoke softy too him. Suddenly he darted forwards and I heard the door creak. I was not letting him break the door again! I got hold of him and tried to pull him back, but he went forwards again. He got a slap on the chest with a "NO! BACK!" and that made him aware of me long enough so I could get him under control and walk him out of the stable to calm down. Goodness knows what had frightened him, but when he was calm I walked him back in to the stables and I finished grooming him. 
That was also the day I decided "Back" in the stable would be useful. Why I didn't think of that before I don't know, but now he knows "back" and all is well!


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## cptrayes (20 January 2013)

Alyth said:



			I find it really interesting that so many people find it necessary to administer a slap - occasionally - 'to remind them' or 'keep them in line'......no-one has talked about what caused the behaviour that needed a 'reminder'.....something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct....
		
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They are horses 

They do daft things for goodness knows what reason, only occasionally due to fear 

Like humans, they have different personalities. Some are pushy, some are quiet, some would be outright thugs if not kept in their place.  (young Welsh Ds come to mind  )

But do you REALLY want your horse to be an automaton which has its eyes fixed on you at all times awaiting your every move, without an independent thought in its head?

I don't.


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## AengusOg (20 January 2013)

How do you come to this...



cptrayes said:



			They are horses 
But do you REALLY want your horse to be an automaton which has its eyes fixed on you at all times awaiting your every move, without an independent thought in its head?
		
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...from this?
Originally Posted by Alyth  
I find it really interesting that so many people find it necessary to administer a slap - occasionally - 'to remind them' or 'keep them in line'......no-one has talked about what caused the behaviour that needed a 'reminder'.....something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct....


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

What I am constantly trying to achieve is a partnership between me and the horse, where we both have our roles and responsibilities.

I choose direction and gait.

He maintains direction and gait until asked to change.

I provide leadership and safety.

He accepts that and doesn't start making his own decisions, being fearful and allowing his natural instincts to take over to get him out of trouble.

No I don't want an automaton, I want a horse who is comfortable in his skin and his world working with me, aware of his role and not having to be micro managed all the time.

Not much to ask really,


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## Dizzy socks (20 January 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Oh maybe there's a bit of misinterpretation on my part, on this thread.  I thought by 'smack' this meant people smacking with their hand or elbow.
		
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Yup, that is what I intended it to mean


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## TrasaM (20 January 2013)

I'm beginning to discover that they are not unlike children. Often a whisper or low voice works better than a shout and a poke with a finger to get a horse to move over can be more effective than a slap or a thump.


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## TrasaM (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			What I am constantly trying to achieve is a partnership between me and the horse, where we both have our roles and responsibilities.

I choose direction and gait.

He maintains direction and gait until asked to change.

I provide leadership and safety.

He accepts that and doesn't start making his own decisions, being fearful and allowing his natural instincts to take over to get him out of trouble.

No I don't want an automaton, I want a horse who is comfortable in his skin and his world working with me, aware of his role and not having to be micro managed all the time.

Not much to ask really,

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Really like this. It's what I'm working towards.


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## ILuvCowparsely (20 January 2013)

A lot of people humanize horses in all ways.

 They are my life they mean as much as children to me.  People are thinking of smacking as being detrimental to a horses relationship of owner and horse as if a horse thinks the same way a child would think (I was smacked as a child - I find nothing wrong if given as a last resort after two warnings) 

 Horses do not take it personally against their owners
 In the wild or in their world.

 A mare will give a kick as 
 a warning
 a bite 
 a kick
 To their foal or youngster when they do wrong.
 A horse mare or gelding in a field will give a 
kick 
bite warning etc to another horse
 A stallion also the same.


 So I see nothing wrong with a human hand which does far less damage that a horses hoof or teeth. ( my boy is on box rest due to a kick).
 It barely stings as when you slap your own leg  or play fighting with hubby/b/f.

 Everyone has their own views, I will give a smack in the right  situation, as I know none of my horses think any less of me, as per my mare of a lifetime you could not get a stronger bond between owner and horse as I did with her.


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## lastchancer (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Cptrayes no way will I ever condone hitting horses or any other animal, it's wrong and unhelpful and doesn't work.
		
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So how would you have desensitized my whip shy horse then? You never answered my earlier post.


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## lastchancer (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			So not really cured then Wagtail.

Specifically, in that situation, I wouldn't recommend pushing his nose away because it becomes a colt see saw game. 
I'd scratch and rub his nose every time he came into my space with it looking to nip. So instead of pushi his mussel away get really busy with it. They soon get fed up with that and pack the nipping in
		
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Have you ever even seen a real biter?


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## 1stclassalan (20 January 2013)

Thirty three pages and counting - I can see points in lots of the posts - it's an emotive subject.

I was brought up in what would be described today as brutal surroundings - even my mother beat me with a stick - it was the norm back then and parents would have considered soft in the head it they didn't chastise their children - especially boys. I was extraordinarily cheeky ( oh - I bet that comes as no surprise!)

My youth was spent among trainee criminals - all our local heroes looked like the Goodfellas only in English - as I grew to be quite big, it was only natural to gravitate to this life ( let me fix him for you boss!)

However; I realised  through education that there was another world just outside my bubble and luckily I found a way to join it. Renouncing violence is one of the first conditions of civilisation - this doesn't mean I'm a soft touch but it does mean that I didn't hit my children or any animals.

Hopefully, I led through firm but kind, fair and consistence behavior but never a big stick.


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## diamonddogs (20 January 2013)

I think we're all guilty of anthromorphism at times - I know I am! I often hold quite intense conversations with my horse, believing that she's understanding every word I say (I know, I know! ) but deep down she IS just a horse, and the excitement directed at me when she sees me is probably nothing more than "w00t w00t - here's her with the carrots" or "thank gawd for that - she's come to let me out". And I'm sure she doesn't "love" me any less for the odd slap or verbal reprimand, which is where a lot of people go wrong.

But I do believe she sees me as a leader now, and I like nothing more than when she leaves the herd to follow me down the field without rope or headcollar - that's assuming I've had to GO into the field to get her - normally she'll stop what doing and come when I call her.

She also demonstrates trust in winter when they're all at the gate waiting to come in and nine times out of ten she'll pick her way through to come to me, because she thinks I'll do my best to keep her safe from attack by the higher herd members.


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

lastchancer said:



			So how would you have desensitized my whip shy horse then? You never answered my earlier post.
		
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Sorry Lastchancer, didn't really know what you are asking about.

You have a whip shy horse and you are asking me how you would desensitize it. 
From the wording of your question are you expecting me to say "hit it with a whip"?

Can I ask why is your horse whip shy? whats happened to it?


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## Wagtail (20 January 2013)

lastchancer said:



			Have you ever even seen a real biter?
		
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I know what you mean. There is no way on earth you can 'get busy' with the nose and lips of a real biter. It can only be effective with those that are playing. I never forget being attacked by this mare that belonged to a friend of mine. I was leaning over her door to see if she had any haylage left and she flew at me grabbing the top of my arm like a vice. The pain was excruciating. Despite having two jumpers and a thick winter coat on my arm was black and blue from shoulder to elbow. If it had been summer and I was wearing a t shirt, I think she would have removed the whole of my biceps muscle. 

We never did find out what made her so bad. She was bought at a sale and was like that from day one. I certainly didn't try playing with her lips! I never went near her again unless she was under tack, when for some reason she was fine.


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			I know what you mean. There is no way on earth you can 'get busy' with the nose and lips of a real biter. It can only be effective with those that are playing. I never forget being attacked by this mare that belonged to a friend of mine. I was leaning over her door to see if she had any haylage left and she flew at me grabbing the top of my arm like a vice. The pain was excruciating. Despite having two jumpers and a thick winter coat on my arm was black and blue from shoulder to elbow. If it had been summer and I was wearing a t shirt, I think she would have removed the whole of my biceps muscle. 

We never did find out what made her so bad. She was bought at a sale and was like that from day one. I certainly didn't try playing with her lips! I never went near her again unless she was under tack, when for some reason she was fine.
		
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Sounds like this horse is attacking you not just biting.


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## AdorableAlice (20 January 2013)

Leviathan said:



			Everyone has their own views, I will give a smack in the right  situation, .
		
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I had to land a hefty smack, with a thumbstick, across the rugged backside of my cob this morning.

The reason - to save her from injury.  She tried to roll on a concrete yard and had she gone down she would have had a real struggle to rise.  The yard had 3 inches of snow covering solid ice.

She is now happily upside down in the field.  The smack was not punishment and no doubt someone will say she lacks training because her attention was not with me whilst be lead across the yard, but a potentially nasty incident was averted with one quick smack.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Sounds like this horse is attacking you not just biting.
		
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Biting IS attacking, isn't it? I make the distinction between biting and nipping. Nipping, is usually play related, and can easily be trained out of a horse, often without resorting to hitting. Biting is more serious.


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## lastchancer (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Sorry Lastchancer, didn't really know what you are asking about.

You have a whip shy horse and you are asking me how you would desensitize it. 
From the wording of your question are you expecting me to say "hit it with a whip"?

Can I ask why is your horse whip shy? whats happened to it?
		
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He isn't anymore, I got him used to the whip as explained in an earlier post.
 That's what I was asking, in your opinion was I wrong to use the whip carefully in a controlled environment, so that he could learn that no everyone would beat him senseless? And if I was wrong, how else could I have approached the issue?

He must have been thrashed badly at some point as he was terrified or men, whips and loud shouty people. To the extent that he was afraid to walk by dog walkers when we were out.


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			Biting IS attacking, isn't it? I make the distinction between biting and nipping. Nipping, is usually play related, and can easily be trained out of a horse, often without resorting to hitting. Biting is more serious.
		
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Going round and round here.

You have to do what you think best and what you are capable of doing. I wouldn't resort to hitting, you obviously want to.

Accurately, sorting out what your problem is is your first hurdle.

Of course trying to set little tests for me is fun, especially when you can come back with , 'Tried that didn't work,' scenarios. Honestly Wagtail, I was born at night, not  last night.


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

lastchancer said:



			He isn't anymore, I got him used to the whip as explained in an earlier post.
 That's what I was asking, in your opinion was I wrong to use the whip carefully in a controlled environment, so that he could learn that no everyone would beat him senseless? And if I was wrong, how else could I have approached the issue?

He must have been thrashed badly at some point as he was terrified or men, whips and loud shouty people. To the extent that he was afraid to walk by dog walkers when we were out.
		
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IMO a whip is just a stick and can be as unthreatening as an extension of your arm, I think you are right to get him used to a whip and to understand that not everyone will thrash him. In fact you'd be failing if you didn't. Sounds like this horse was in a poor way and you have done wonders with him.


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## lastchancer (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			IMO a whip is just a stick and can be as unthreatening as an extension of your arm, I think you are right to get him used to a whip and to understand that not everyone will thrash him. In fact you'd be failing if you didn't. Sounds like this horse was in a poor way and you have done wonders with him.
		
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Thanks, I had to sell him in the end due to financial reasons, he's doing well though.


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## 1stclassalan (20 January 2013)

lastchancer said:



			He must have been thrashed badly at some point as he was terrified or men, whips and loud shouty people. To the extent that he was afraid to walk by dog walkers when we were out.
		
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Yes, always difficult when you've taken over someone else's work!  Isn't it peculiar how many people shout loudly at an animal in what is already a stressful situation and expect it to calm down, come back to them etc., etc., and a lot of them wave a big stick as well!

I retrained my mare to accept me carrying a long stick - I only ever used this as an extension of my hand to help push her bum over on the odd occasion she needed it. I'm quite sure that all horses have the intelligence to work out the difference in people just as they are among the herd - some people will hit you, some won't just as some horses kick out and some never do. 

I'll also accept that just by carrying the stick to start with probably terrorised the poor old girl as she was often beaten ( used advisedly ) at the school of equitation she lived despite it's international reputation! In fact, the first dealings I had with her was walking out on to the hallowed riding surface and threatening a client with being being beaten to a pulp by me if he hit her again! I regard that as one of the defining moments of my life.


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## Kallibear (20 January 2013)

There are always those who can't control their temper. But the massively 'anti smacking' often fail to differentiate between a well timed and well deserved smack, applied with no emotional attachment, and beating your horse in frustration (or even just slapping it once out of anger). 

I can terrify most horses (should I want to!?) without even touching them. If a horse kicked out at me I can make them think the world is ending without going within 2 feet of them. The 'anti smacking' brigade seem to believe that smacking is somehow a break down in emotional intelligence as they feel it is always given in anger or fear. It rarely is, and is driving your horse away (which moving away because it knows it leads to an unpleasant repercussions if it doesn't) BETTER than a well timed, not-particularly painful , smack? There are time when a smack to say 'no you bloody don't' if more useful and appropriate than making them move away. And when applied properly, if often less frightened for the horse than being driven off.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Going round and round here.

You have to do what you think best and what you are capable of doing. I wouldn't resort to hitting, you obviously want to.
		
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Yes, I obviously WANT to hit horses because I enjoy it very much. 




			Accurately, sorting out what your problem is is your first hurdle.

Of course trying to set little tests for me is fun, especially when you can come back with , 'Tried that didn't work,' scenarios. Honestly Wagtail, I was born at night, not  last night.
		
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I always try the softly softly approach first. Pushing away, playing with the nose (I had genuinely forgotten we tried that). I am not testing you, PR. No point in telling porkies to win arguments. It's not something that has ever appealed to me.

I don't think that ALL horses need to be hit (and by hit, I am talking about elbow meeting nose, or upwards slap with the back of the hand), but for some, a softly softly approach does not work. I know that, because I have many years of experience in training horses. But you should always try a gentler approach first. I just don't think you have met a challenging horse yet.


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## ILuvCowparsely (20 January 2013)

I really don't know what PR is trying to achieve by going on and on about no smacking??

  Does he think if he goes on long enough he will wear us down into his way of thinking?? Or is he trying to  start with us then going on to change the world like a one man crusade.

 Its getting just a tad repetitive we know you don't hit, but do you have to keep ramming it down our throats.

 I think most of us have expressed whether we smack or not.  We all have different views about this and when we would/wouldn't do it.

 He has a trate to not answer some questions put to him, probably because he does not know the answer so answers the question with another question.

Most of us sane people will always do the soft approach first then follow up with a smack, a bit like if the horse ignores your leg you use a schooling whip.  or are you against those as well????


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			Yes, I obviously WANT to hit horses because I enjoy it very much. 



I always try the softly softly approach first. Pushing away, playing with the nose (I had genuinely forgotten we tried that). I am not testing you, PR. No point in telling porkies to win arguments. It's not something that has ever appealed to me.

I don't think that ALL horses need to be hit (and by hit, I am talking about elbow meeting nose, or upwards slap with the back of the hand), but for some, a softly softly approach does not work. I know that, because I have many years of experience in training horses. But you should always try a gentler approach first. I just don't think you have met a challenging horse yet.
		
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Of course I don't think you want to hit your horse, I get a bit waspish sometimes, age I expect.

I know that some horses can be really difficult and hard to deal with, I know that it's not their fault nor the person trying to deal with all this. I also know that there is no magic wand or quick fix.

Believe me, I have met some real beauties in my time. When a horse decides hes up for a fight instead of flight then you better have your brain in gear because he's faster, fitter, harder than you. He'll kick you, strike you and bite you. He'll use his speed, athleticism and weight, if you think hitting him is an answer, he'll bury you. 

I don't throw advice around like confetii on here because it can get people killed, or badly hurt anyway, when they get it wrong, because they will. It's doing the right thing at the appropreate time and getting the timing spot on that works with horses, and you cannot explain the half of it on a forum.

Doing what I do isn't a soft option for a horse and some make you put enormous amounts of pressure on them in order to get them working with you. The only thing I don't do is hit them, this covers everything from a slap, a tap with a whip to a thrashing.

If his nose meets your elbow thats a block, if you elbow him in the nose thats a strike.

At the end of the day, if a person slaps a horse, unless they have no feeling or shame it's the person who feels it more. I always say, do without your crutch (crop), for a couple of weeks and see how it feels. Not many pick it up again.


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## Tinypony (20 January 2013)

"There are always those who can't control their temper. But the massively 'anti smacking' often fail to differentiate between a well timed and well deserved smack, applied with no emotional attachment, and beating your horse in frustration (or even just slapping it once out of anger). "

Noooo, to be fair, I think that the anti-smacking people think there is never any justification for a slap, whether or not the human considers it to be well timed and well deserved.  Emotional detachment doesn't come into it really.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			What I am constantly trying to achieve is a partnership between me and the horse, where we both have our roles and responsibilities.

I choose direction and gait.

He maintains direction and gait until asked to change.

I provide leadership and safety.

He accepts that and doesn't start making his own decisions, being fearful and allowing his natural instincts to take over to get him out of trouble.

No I don't want an automaton, I want a horse who is comfortable in his skin and his world working with me, aware of his role and not having to be micro managed all the time.

Not much to ask really,

Click to expand...



Ditto. Your way, never ever smacking a horse, is not the only way and with some horses it is not even a safe way.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



*How do you come to this...*

Originally Posted by cptrayes View Post
They are horses
But do you REALLY want your horse to be an automaton which has its eyes fixed on you at all times awaiting your every move, without an independent thought in its head?

*...from this?*

Originally Posted by Alyth
I find it really interesting that so many people find it necessary to administer a slap - occasionally - 'to remind them' or 'keep them in line'......no-one has talked about what caused the behaviour that needed a 'reminder'.....something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct.... .
		
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The only way to get a horse (unless it was naturally born totally dull in the brain) which never, ever oversteps a boundary is if it is drilled to within an inch of its life to watch out for any human near it. I think you will find that is the essence of the Parelli  "both eyes on me or I'll smack you under the jaw with the clip on this lunge line" reasoning. I've seen some depressed looking horses trained to do just that through what were supposedly "games" but actually were training in total domination.

I would rather have to very occasionally remind a horse to step out of my way as I come into their stable because it has temporarily focussed on something interesting/frightening in the yard, than I would have that level of slavish attention to what I want of him. I am his leader, not his despotic dictator.


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Ditto. I achieve it too. Your way, never ever smacking a horse, is not the only way and with some horses it is not even a safe way.
		
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OK


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			The only way to get a horse (unless it was naturally born totally dull in the brain) which never, ever oversteps a boundary is if it is drilled to within an inch of its life to watch out for any human near it. I think you will find that is the essence of the Parelli  "both eyes on me or I'll smack you under the jaw with the clip on this lunge line" reasoning. I've seen some depressed looking horses trained to do just that through what were supposedly "games" but actually were training in total domination.

I would rather have to very occasionally remind a horse to step out of my way as I come into their stable because it has temporarily focussed on something interesting/frightening in the yard, than I would have that level of slavish attention to what I want of him. I am his leader, not his despotic dictator.
		
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I bet you have seen a lot of depressed horses,


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## cptrayes (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I don't throw advice around like confetii on here .
		
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But you DO !

You throw advice not to ever hit a horse around like confetti on any thread that comes up about it, without ever giving anyone any advice to what they should do instead.

Anyone could do that, PR, but the holier than thou attitude that you also take when you do it is quite unique, that I will give you.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I bet you have seen a lot of depressed horses,  

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Only in the hands of other people PR.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Of course I don't think you want to hit your horse, I get a bit waspish sometimes, age I expect.
		
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Great, now we may get somewhere...




			I know that some horses can be really difficult and hard to deal with, I know that it's not their fault nor the person trying to deal with all this. I also know that there is no magic wand or quick fix.

Believe me, I have met some real beauties in my time. When a horse decides hes up for a fight instead of flight then you better have your brain in gear because he's faster, fitter, harder than you. He'll kick you, strike you and bite you. He'll use his speed, athleticism and weight, if you think hitting him is an answer, he'll bury you.
		
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Completely agree. There is one horse on my yard that would give you both barrels if you even LOOKED like you might hit him. Out of the other six, four of them I have never hit (have have had all of them here at least two years)
One, my mare, I haven't hit for around seven years. We have a fabulous relationship, closer than I could ever have imagined. She is the only horse I ALLOW to play with me (and that includes with teeth). She knows exactly how hard to nibble without it hurting a human. She will never be passed on (otherwise I wouldn't have allowed this). The last one is the foal that has turned nine months old today. Just measured him and he's actually 15 hh at the wither!  Now I have a DUTY to ensure that he becomes the most well mannered and gentle giant possible. It is a huge responsibility as I do all of the handling. He is a cheeky chappie who I have tried all the non hitting methods with. He only understood not to bite when I finally slapped his nose. The past two days he's been trying a new trick, of running over me. He got a couple of sharp tugs on his nose and was an angel to lead when I got him out this morning. Now a different, less boistrous and confident foal probably wouldn't need any of this at all.




			I don't throw advice around like confetii on here because it can get people killed, or badly hurt anyway, when they get it wrong, because they will. It's doing the right thing at the appropreate time and getting the timing spot on that works with horses, and you cannot explain the half of it on a forum.

Doing what I do isn't a soft option for a horse and some make you put enormous amounts of pressure on them in order to get them working with you. The only thing I don't do is hit them, this covers everything from a slap, a tap with a whip to a thrashing.

If his nose meets your elbow thats a block, if you elbow him in the nose thats a strike.

At the end of the day, if a person slaps a horse, unless they have no feeling or shame it's the person who feels it more. I always say, do without your crutch (crop), for a couple of weeks and see how it feels. Not many pick it up again.
		
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I actually think a lot of NH methods are quite harsh, far harsher than I would be with any horse. 

One question, what do you feel about people poking horses in the sides with their heels to move them forwards when riding? This would hurt every bit as much as a slap on the chest or an elbow in the neck.


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## PolarSkye (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I choose direction and gait.

He maintains direction and gait until asked to change.

I provide leadership and safety.

He accepts that and doesn't start making his own decisions, being fearful and allowing his natural instincts to take over to get him out of trouble.
		
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Did you really write that you don't want your horse to make his own decisions?  Surely NH is about allowing a horse to make its own decisions within a safe framework of choices?

I'd rather Kal made the decision and learned from the consequence than obeyed me blindly without using his (very lively) brain.  And, yes, sometimes the consequence is that he runs into my pointy elbow with his nose, or he gets a warning finger raised and an appropriate noise when he goes to nip or do something else undesirable.  

He HAS met the flat of my hand once or twice . . . but I've also employed other methods to express my disapproval, including having a full on tantrum when he nipped me on the way to the field - shocked him so much he forgot to use me as a chew toy .  Most of the time I just use my body language to back him up if he's getting a bit full of himself, but sometimes - just sometimes - he needs a short, sharp reminder (and I'm talking about probably once or twice a year).

P  



P


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## AdorableAlice (20 January 2013)

Here is PR's next project.


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			I actually think a lot of NH methods are quite harsh, far harsher than I would be with any horse. 

One question, what do you feel about people poking horses in the sides with their heels to move them forwards when riding? This would hurt every bit as much as a slap on the chest or an elbow in the neck.
		
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I'd agree that some NH methods can be harsh. There are as many different methods as there are trainers though.

Personally I don't poke with my heels, I may squeese with my legs if I'm not getting forward, but I'm looking for forward through raised energy level moving forward, but, no I don't jab with heels.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2013)

That bear is amazing AA.


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## PolarSkye (20 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct....
		
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You are correct . . . for some horses some of the time . . . perhaps even most horses most of the time . . . but sometimes said horse is just being cheeky and chancing his/her arm.  GreyDonkey is currently on box rest following surgery . . . he has already leaned on his stall chain hard enough for the clip to snap and he made off across the yard - he wasn't frightened of his stable, he just took the opportunity to be out.  End of.  He didn't get a smack for that . . . because he didn't do anything that warranted being hit . . . but, it's a great illustration of the fact that not everything horses do is governed by their flight instinct.  GD is one of those horses who gets nippy if fed treats by hand.  I always put treats in either his feed bowl or his treat ball, but (and this is the downside of being on a large livery yard and not being there all the time) my (former) fieldmates always take treats up when they catch their horses in and give treats to all three . . . so I need to stay on top of GD's nipping (not caused by me).  

P


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## Wagtail (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I'd agree that some NH methods can be harsh. There are as many different methods as there are trainers though.

Personally I don't poke with my heels, I may squeese with my legs if I'm not getting forward, but I'm looking for forward through raised energy level moving forward, but, no I don't jab with heels.
		
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You are used to QHs and arabs. They are naturally forward going. Once I have schooled a horse, they are very light off the leg, so no need to jab them with the heels. However, some horses come to me that are 'dead to the leg'. How would you deal with this?


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## AengusOg (20 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			The only way to get a horse (unless it was naturally born totally dull in the brain) which never, ever oversteps a boundary is if it is drilled to within an inch of its life to watch out for any human near it. I think you will find that is the essence of the Parelli  "both eyes on me or I'll smack you under the jaw with the clip on this lunge line" reasoning. I've seen some depressed looking horses trained to do just that through what were supposedly "games" but actually were training in total domination.

I would rather have to very occasionally remind a horse to step out of my way as I come into their stable because it has temporarily focussed on something interesting/frightening in the yard, than I would have that level of slavish attention to what I want of him. I am his leader, not his despotic dictator.
		
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If you say so.


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## AengusOg (20 January 2013)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AengusOg  
something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct....

I don't know how you did this, but these are not my words, PolarSkye.


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

PolarSkye said:



			Did you really write that you don't want your horse to make his own decisions?  Surely NH is about allowing a horse to make its own decisions within a safe framework of choices?

I'd rather Kal made the decision and learned from the consequence than obeyed me blindly without using his (very lively) brain.  And, yes, sometimes the consequence is that he runs into my pointy elbow with his nose, or he gets a warning finger raised and an appropriate noise when he goes to nip or do something else undesirable.  

He HAS met the flat of my hand once or twice . . . but I've also employed other methods to express my disapproval, including having a full on tantrum when he nipped me on the way to the field - shocked him so much he forgot to use me as a chew toy .  Most of the time I just use my body language to back him up if he's getting a bit full of himself, but sometimes - just sometimes - he needs a short, sharp reminder (and I'm talking about probably once or twice a year).
P
		
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In context, so long as we are within the framework fine. What I'm saying is I don't want him thinking in a tricky situation, he is a better leader than me and taking over, you know all the usual things that can happen bogging off or trying to go home. This can only be achieved by him being confident in my role as leader.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			This would hurt every bit as much as a slap on the chest or an elbow in the neck.
		
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Is it actually possible for the average human to hurt a horse by slapping it with an open hand, biffing it with a closed fist or elbowing the neck or shoulder? 

I would say that the most I manage to do is to alert the horse to what I am asking it to do that it wasn't listening to. I might shock it, but hurt it? I don't think so.  If it actually hurt the horse I think it would cripple me!


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## Wagtail (20 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Is it actually possible for the average human to hurt a horse by slapping it with an open hand, biffing it with a closed fist or elbowing the neck or shoulder? 

I would say that the most I manage to do is to alert the horse to what I am asking it to do that it wasn't listening to. I might shock it, but hurt it? I don't think so.  If it actually hurt the horse I think it would cripple me!
		
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I was having a good think about just that whilst mucking out earlier. It is *nothing* compared to what they are capable of doing and *do* do to each other. I think the reason why a (well timed) smack works, is because they *understand* it. They know the intention behind it. Not because it hurts them.


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			You are used to QHs and arabs. They are naturally forward going. Once I have schooled a horse, they are very light off the leg, so no need to jab them with the heels. However, some horses come to me that are 'dead to the leg'. How would you deal with this?
		
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Yes I have QH's and Arabs, I tend to get a lot of WB's now, fashion being what it is, I've got one myself now, lol.

Groundwork, millions of transitions, directional changes the lot. I'd be looking for walk to canter, canter to stop and all other combinations of transition on the ground. When I was getting this with the smallest ask, I'd transfer it to the saddle. I certainly wouldn't rush it, and its got to be right on the ground before you go back to riding.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (20 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			I was having a good think about just that whilst mucking out earlier. It is *nothing* compared to what they are capable of doing and *do* do to each other. I think the reason why a (well timed) smack works, is because they *understand* it. They know the intention behind it. Not because it hurts them.
		
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Like.


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## 1stclassalan (20 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Is it actually possible for the average human to hurt a horse by slapping it with an open hand, biffing it with a closed fist or elbowing the neck or shoulder? 

I would say that the most I manage to do is to alert the horse to what I am asking it to do that it wasn't listening to. I might shock it, but hurt it? I don't think so.  If it actually hurt the horse I think it would cripple me!
		
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Even with my declared attitude to the subject I'm inclined to agree with you on the "hurting" part  so the decision to hit is largely one of whether you think it's appropriate to shock an animal.

Particularly as I ( along with many others ) hold the opinion that horses are completely without sentience to cause and effect - for instance; you might think a vicious stop is worthy of a smart thwack but your horse just thinks - what the hell was that! I'm even going to leave off the "for" as that is yet another level up the consciousness scale.

The fact that you can beat some horses into submission or seemingly passed their fears does not excuse anyone so doing - well, certainly not while claiming to be truly Horsey - that should be a partnership of the willing.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Yes I have QH's and Arabs, I tend to get a lot of WB's now, fashion being what it is, I've got one myself now, lol.

Groundwork, millions of transitions, directional changes the lot. I'd be looking for walk to canter, canter to stop and all other combinations of transition on the ground. When I was getting this with the smallest ask, I'd transfer it to the saddle. I certainly wouldn't rush it, and its got to be right on the ground before you go back to riding.
		
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Okay, I agree with that (though have not/would not teach canter to stop). Walk to canter, halt to canter, canter to walk (only ridden). Anyway, you do all that, but horse is still dead to the leg. What do you do? I know plenty of horses that are quick to react on the lunge but revert to being dead to the leg when ridden. Obviously due to incorrect training (owner too busy with the leg aids). But how do you change that? I know what I do, but what do *you* do?


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## PolarSkye (20 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			Quote:
Originally Posted by AengusOg  
something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct....

I don't know how you did this, but these are not my words, PolarSkye.
		
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Erm . . . I thought I just used the quote button, but I'll see if I can find the entire post I quoted this from . . . odd if it wasn't you, no skullduggery from me, I promise.

P


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## cptrayes (20 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			I was having a good think about just that whilst mucking out earlier. It is *nothing* compared to what they are capable of doing and *do* do to each other. I think the reason why a (well timed) smack works, is because they *understand* it. They know the intention behind it. Not because it hurts them.
		
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Exactly what I think. It's a language that they understand because they speak it to each other. 

The shoulder-biff with the teeth is a great example. If a horse comes too close to the herd leader and is coming up to pass them, then they turn their head and biff the shoulder with their teeth. I replicate that with my knuckles in exactly the same place on a horse who does not lead nicely, and they know exactly what I mean. An elbow does the same and I would do that too but I have very bony elbows and might hurt myself so I tend to use a fist


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## Wagtail (20 January 2013)

1stclassalan said:



			Even with my declared attitude to the subject I'm inclined to agree with you on the "hurting" part  so the decision to hit is largely one of whether you think it's appropriate to shock an animal.

Particularly as I ( along with many others ) hold the opinion that horses are completely without sentience to cause and effect - for instance; you might think a vicious stop is worthy of a smart thwack but your horse just thinks - what the hell was that! I'm even going to leave off the "for" as that is yet another level up the consciousness scale.

The fact that you can beat some horses into submission or seemingly passed their fears does not excuse anyone so doing - well, certainly not while claiming to be truly Horsey - that should be a partnership of the willing.
		
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I have to agree with the senseless whipping some horses get after refusing a jump. The whip is not there to punish a horse, it is there as a back up to the leg. I actually find it is the most useful when teaching lateral movements. I use a schooling whip either to tickle behind the leg or to press behind the leg in a more constant pressure. I don't use it to hit.


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			Okay, I agree with that (though have not/would not teach canter to stop). Walk to canter, halt to canter, canter to walk (only ridden). Anyway, you do all that, but horse is still dead to the leg. What do you do? I know plenty of horses that are quick to react on the lunge but revert to being dead to the leg when ridden. Obviously due to incorrect training (owner too busy with the leg aids). But how do you change that? I know what I do, but what do *you* do?
		
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I'm not lunging,

Patterns will sort that.

If it still doesn't work it will take longer thats all.

I wouldn't try to be stronger with legs or spurs.

Seeing as how I've not met one yet that hasn't responded well to this training, what would you do then?


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## Wagtail (20 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Exactly what I think. It's a language that they understand because they speak it to each other. 

The shoulder-biff with the teeth is a great example. If a horse comes too close to the herd leader and is coming up to pass them, then they turn their head and biff the shoulder with their teeth. I replicate that with my knuckles in exactly the same place on a horse who does not lead nicely, and they know exactly what I mean. An elbow does the same and I would do that too but I have very bony elbows and might hurt myself so I tend to use a fist 

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Good point.

Another (non contact) communication they use to send others away is the flick up and down with their head. Horses understand it as being the same message when you do the same thing with your hand and arm. There are some things they just understand because it's what they do to each other. I have also turned my back to them, stepped back and raised my leg. Has the same effect.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I'm not lunging,

Patterns will sort that.

If it still doesn't work it will take longer thats all.

I wouldn't try to be stronger with legs or spurs.

Seeing as how I've not met one yet that hasn't responded well to this training, what would you do then?
		
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Firstly train the owner. 

Legs should be still unless asking for an increase in gait or step up of gait. Then ask with a gentle squeeze. If horse does not immediately go forwards, then a strong dig with the heel. I have never met a horse that needs this doing more than twice. Problem solved in no more than a minute. Just have to ensure that the owner does not revert back to nagging with the legs.


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## AengusOg (20 January 2013)

PolarSkye said:



			no skullduggery from me, I promise.

P
		
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I'm sure. 

I think they may have been Pale Rider's words. 

There are some problems with the site this weekend,apparently, so maybe that is the reason.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			Good point.

Another (non contact) communication they use to send others away is the flick up and down with their head. Horses understand it as being the same message when you do the same thing with your hand and arm. There are some things they just understand because it's what they do to each other. I have also turned my back to them, stepped back and raised my leg. Has the same effect.
		
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Well I've not tried the threat to kick, what a great idea  !

I have a horse who also rotates his head when he flicks it - it's a very aggressive gesture, according to how the others react to it.  I never realised before how my instinctive raise of my hand right up into the air with a flick of the hand on the end of the wrist mirrors that, but I often use it when I am herding them loose into a barn.


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			I'm sure. 

I think they may have been Pale Rider's words. 

There are some problems with the site this weekend,apparently, so maybe that is the reason.
		
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Not me this time AengusOg,


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			Firstly train the owner. 

Legs should be still unless asking for an increase in gait or step up of gait. Then ask with a gentle squeeze. If horse does not immediately go forwards, then a strong dig with the heel. I have never met a horse that needs this doing more than twice. Problem solved in no more than a minute. Just have to ensure that the owner does not revert back to nagging with the legs.
		
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Fair enough, another cat skin.


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## Cortez (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider, could you post some pictures of you and your horses? I'm sure it would be a lot easier for us to understand what it is you are advocating as an alternative to the more "traditional" methods?


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

Cortez said:



			Pale Rider, could you post some pictures of you and your horses? I'm sure it would be a lot easier for us to understand what it is you are advocating as an alternative to the more "traditional" methods?
		
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No pictures, no videos sorry.


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## Cortez (20 January 2013)

Why not?


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

I don't want too.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2013)

Cortez said:



			Why not?
		
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Anonymity, I would think.


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## Cortez (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I don't want too.
		
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Sorry, I've just put you back on the twaddle pile.


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## Shantara (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I don't want too.
		
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Why not though, is it a security/privacy thing? You don't want us seeing you/your horses? 

I think I could hurt Ned if I really _really_ tried, but I never try to hurt him. 
I do the same to friends who aren't listening, surprisingly! A small slap on the shoulder. None of them have ever said it hurts! I guess I'm an evil friend too


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## Wagtail (20 January 2013)

Actually, I think it is something that many people would be reluctant to do on a public forum. There are some real nutcases about.


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

I'd quite like folk to see my horses and what they can do.

But, as far as these threads go, I think that anonymity is what I'd prefer, especially considering how many people I seem to have upset. I do have a living to earn, lol.

Wagtail's right there are a lot of nutters about, and I'd never forgive myself if something happened.


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## Cortez (20 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			Actually, I think it is someything that many people would be reluctant to do on a public forum. There are some real nutcases about.
		
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Ànd many people are happy to, myself included, although the nutcases would have a bit of a journey over here....


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## PolarSkye (20 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			I'm sure. 

I think they may have been Pale Rider's words. 

There are some problems with the site this weekend,apparently, so maybe that is the reason.
		
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So if it wasn't you, and it wasn't PR, then who did I quote?  I really did just use the Quote function . . . this is very odd . . .

P


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## cptrayes (20 January 2013)

Cortez said:



			Ànd many people are happy to, myself included, although the nutcases would have a bit of a journey over here....
		
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Don't you have any home grown ones in Ireland Cortez  ?


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## cptrayes (20 January 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I'd quite like folk to see my horses and what they can do.

But, as far as these threads go, I think that anonymity is what I'd prefer, especially considering how many people I seem to have upset. I do have a living to earn, lol.

Wagtail's right there are a lot of nutters about, and I'd never forgive myself if something happened.
		
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I don't see a problem myself PR. I always post under my own name because I hate what some people, NOT you, are prepared to say under cover of anonymity.

I do actually find it strange that if you make your money out of training horses, which I think you do?, that you are not prepared to give your true name and yet you are happy to post fairly prolifically on barefoot and on training issues like the use of whips and bits.  

It's one of the reasons I counter-post you, because you post with the authority of a paid trainer and are very critical of other people's management of their horses, and yet you hide behind anonymity.

I too take plenty of stick on this forum, sometimes fairly vicious stuff, but in all my five years on here I've never had anyone seek me out at home or hurt my horses or even write to me. There are quite a few of us who post under our real names, how about joining us?


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## Tinypony (20 January 2013)

But, when trainers say who they are and post they get accused of advertising...


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## Pale Rider (20 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I don't see a problem myself PR. I always post under my own name because I hate what some people, NOT you, are prepared to say under cover of anonymity.

I do actually find it strange that if you make your money out of training horses, which I think you do?, that you are not prepared to give your true name and yet you are happy to post fairly prolifically on barefoot and on training issues like the use of whips and bits.  

It's one of the reasons I counter-post you, because you post with the authority of a paid trainer and are very critical of other people's management of their horses, and yet you hide behind anonymity.

I too take plenty of stick on this forum, sometimes fairly vicious stuff, but in all my five years on here I've never had anyone seek me out at home or hurt my horses or even write to me. There are quite a few of us who post under our real names, how about joining us?
		
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I think I'll carry on with the Status Quo for a bit, one of my favourite bands as well, that dates me, lol


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## diamonddogs (20 January 2013)

I'm with PR on this - don't faint!

I've never used my real name on any forum I've ever been on. I need to be anonymous, partly because of my work, and partly because the horse world is a small world and I don't want to upset anyone when I need opinions on say, how to treat a workmate or yardmate.

It's nice to see this thread's settled down and some (OK, you, Pale Rider ) are mellowing a bit now we're starting to understand where we're all coming from.

Guess what? My horse had a slap tonight.  She's been confined to barracks for a few days because of the weather and she's got a bit up herself. She made to come out of the stable when I was taking in her water bucket, got told "Back" and moved back. She moved over when told to, lifted her foot when I asked so I could sweep under it and stood quietly while I tied up her haynets, and waited patiently for her feed.

Then she let herself down by grabbing my sleeve in her mouth when we were having a chat and fuss over the door.

She reacted in her normal way, stepped back, head down, pointy lip.

Two minutes later she was letting me scratch her poll and behind her ears and nearly falling over she was so chilled - a formerly abused, headshy horse, remember?

She used to be terrified of whips, brooms, and, interestingly, people going near her with an UNLIT cigarette in their mouth (lit ones didn't worry her). I assume someone had beaten the living daylights out of her with such a weapon with a fag in their mouth.

It's like someone said earlier, you have to know your horse, the triggers for bad behaviour, and what works and when, to correct it.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2013)

Tinypony said:



			But, when trainers say who they are and post they get accused of advertising...
		
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Good point!

He can't win, can he?


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## 1stclassalan (20 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			I have to agree with the senseless whipping some horses get after refusing a jump. The whip is not there to punish a horse, it is there as a back up to the leg. I actually find it is the most useful when teaching lateral movements. I use a schooling whip either to tickle behind the leg or to press behind the leg in a more constant pressure. I don't use it to hit.
		
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Ah yes - tickling the leg ( I'm trying to keep my mind on horses for that one!) something like this:-

If you take a good look at my avatar you might appreciate why I have to wipe away the odd tear at this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUoKtanhOXM


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## AengusOg (20 January 2013)

PolarSkye said:



			So if it wasn't you, and it wasn't PR, then who did I quote?  I really did just use the Quote function . . . this is very odd . . .

P
		
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The problem seems to have arisen from post no. 317 PolarSkye. I quoted Alyth. If you look at that post, you should see how it happened. The words you quoted are attributable to Alyth.

Credit where credit is due, and all that.


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## Dizzy socks (20 January 2013)

Wow, this thread is popular. I am now too scared to post anything  So I will just watch it develop!


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## flump (20 January 2013)

Rarely but I did launch a snow ball at him when he spooked and knocked me over in the snow earlier!


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## AdorableAlice (20 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Good point!

He can't win, can he?
		
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I doubt he/she or any of his/her owned/trained horses have ever won anything.  I very much doubt the hallowed training establishment exists.  I doubt the font of all equine knowledge exists.

What does exist is a clever mind with a leaning towards confrontation and fantasy.  I was taken in initially, but has no one noticed that until being pressed into a bit of a corner on this thread, PR rarely responds with more than a few words on any subject, and those words are always scathing or a put down with the intention of goading people.

Give it time and he/she will either trip up or be tripped up. Pale Rider or just   Properly Ridiculous.  I have made my mind up and it looks like some other posters have to.


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## Cortez (20 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Don't you have any home grown ones in Ireland Cortez  ?
		
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Er, not really. The horse world is pretty low key and stable (hur hur) over here.


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## ILuvCowparsely (20 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			I was having a good think about just that whilst mucking out earlier. It is *nothing* compared to what they are capable of doing and *do* do to each other. I think the reason why a (well timed) smack works, is because they *understand* it. They know the intention behind it. Not because it hurts them.
		
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Which is more or less what I said above wagtail


Leviathan said:



			A lot of people humanize horses in all ways.



 Horses do not take it personally against their owners
 In the wild or in their world.

 A mare will give a kick as 
 a warning
 a bite 
 a kick
 To their foal or youngster when they do wrong.
 A horse mare or gelding in a field will give a 
kick 
bite warning etc to another horse
 A stallion also the same.


 So I see nothing wrong with a human hand which does far less damage that a horses hoof or teeth. ( my boy is on box rest due to a kick).
 It barely stings as when you slap your own leg  or play fighting with hubby/b/f.

 Everyone has their own views, I will give a smack in the right  situation, as I know none of my horses think any less of me, as per my mare of a lifetime you could not get a stronger bond between owner and horse as I did with her.
		
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## ILuvCowparsely (20 January 2013)

Some people pat their horses really hard at the end of eventing or cross country etc just like a smack.   How does the horse differentiate between them apart from the words you use ?? he doesn't think anything less of you if you pat/smack him hard after a job well done....  The feeling is still the same to him a small sting when the palm meets his flesh............


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## Ellen Durow (20 January 2013)

Alyth said:



			It must be instant yes - but not 10 seconds later.  .1 of a second is more like it!!
		
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Didn't say you should wait 10 seconds. I said it must be instant. 10 seconds refers to the maximum length of time the horse is able associate cause and effect. I was under the impression that I had made that clear.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2013)

Cortez said:



			Er, not really. The horse world is pretty low key and stable (hur hur) over here.
		
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Can we send you PR to even things up a bit? Pretty please ?


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## cptrayes (20 January 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			I doubt he/she or any of his/her owned/trained horses have ever won anything.  I very much doubt the hallowed training establishment exists.  I doubt the font of all equine knowledge exists.

What does exist is a clever mind with a leaning towards confrontation and fantasy.  I was taken in initially, but has no one noticed that until being pressed into a bit of a corner on this thread, PR rarely responds with more than a few words on any subject, and those words are always scathing or a put down with the intention of goading people.

Give it time and he/she will either trip up or be tripped up. Pale Rider or just   Properly Ridiculous.  I have made my mind up and it looks like some other posters have to.
		
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I still can't decide. I am erring on the side of believing that s/he actually believes what s/he writes but avoids ever explaining anything so that s/he can't be challenged or exposed. 

I have a recollection of the very early days of posting that there was a website named in his/her details that I looked at, that took a bit of ridicule for its content. There was all sorts of new age nonsense on it. But it's quite possible that was someone entirely different.

Does anyone on here know who s/he actually is?   Don't name him/her online, that would breach T&Cs and be very unfair if s/he desires anonymity.


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## hhmmmm (20 January 2013)

Not read the entire thread but I smack mine when needed but I will not hit on the face. Neck, shoulder, chest, belly or backside but if you were to raise a hand to one of my horses faces you'd not get in spitting distance for weeks. As iv had them for so long now it's very rare I need to discipline. My old boy though has been getting very bargey and has almost squashed me against his door before now. Shoved him back a few times, message wasn't getting through to him and I got sick of his behaviour, gave him a slap and made him back up and he's been much better since!


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## Fii (20 January 2013)

hhmmmm said:



			Not read the entire thread but I smack mine when needed but I will not hit on the face. Neck, shoulder, chest, belly or backside but if you were to raise a hand to one of my horses faces you'd not get in spitting distance for weeks. As iv had them for so long now it's very rare I need to discipline. My old boy though has been getting very bargey and has almost squashed me against his door before now. Shoved him back a few times, message wasn't getting through to him and I got sick of his behaviour, gave him a slap and made him back up and he's been much better since!
		
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So where do you smack it then??


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## AengusOg (20 January 2013)

Neck, shoulder, chest, belly or backside, she said.


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## Fii (20 January 2013)

Oh! i read it as i will not smack on face neck shoulder chest belly or backside!


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## Tinypony (20 January 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			I doubt he/she or any of his/her owned/trained horses have ever won anything.  I very much doubt the hallowed training establishment exists.  I doubt the font of all equine knowledge exists.

What does exist is a clever mind with a leaning towards confrontation and fantasy.  I was taken in initially, but has no one noticed that until being pressed into a bit of a corner on this thread, PR rarely responds with more than a few words on any subject, and those words are always scathing or a put down with the intention of goading people.

Give it time and he/she will either trip up or be tripped up. Pale Rider or just   Properly Ridiculous.  I have made my mind up and it looks like some other posters have to.
		
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You know, he may be a bit oblique at times, but I understand pretty much everything he's saying when he posts about what he does with horses.  I'm surprised that so many don't.  I think many from the more nh or vaquero approach would.  I think it's one thing to poke a bit of light-hearted banter at someone (as PR does), but completely another to start posting personal insults as you have done about anyone.  Maybe he just can't be bothered to go into detail?  And why bother when it patently won't change anyone's minds?  Maybe sometimes it's enough to share a little of what people do differently, without feeling the need to persuade them to your opinion, or bang on about your own "credentials".
Just a thought.

p.s.  I thought I might have worked out who PR is a while back.  But even if I knew I was right, I would respect his wishes and not tell everyone.


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## Tinypony (20 January 2013)

I think I've worked out how to stop seeing this thread.  It's been stupidly compelling until taking this latest turn.  To aid my willpower I'm going to see what "unsubscribing" does.  ;-)

Hmm... that was a waste of effort then.  (Bangs head on desk).


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## Alyth (21 January 2013)

Ellen Durow said:



			Didn't say you should wait 10 seconds. I said it must be instant. 10 seconds refers to the maximum length of time the horse is able associate cause and effect. I was under the impression that I had made that clear.
		
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IMO 10 seconds is too long,  it must be INSTANT!!  Count to 10 and see how long it is!!  

Now I want to quote from an excellent horseman that I doubt many of you will have heard of. Carlos Tabernaberri.  
"they (horses) live in the present moment and can't lie"
"aggression in horses is generally caused by lack of trust, and is a learned behaviour.  These horses have strong personalities and, rather than running to hide or escape, will fight."
"my idea of making my horses's 'wrong choice' difficult is to redirect his energy into something that's more work such as sending him out onto a small circle for a few revolutions, which is more uncomfortable."
"Human behaviour is about domination not cooperation.  We focus on winning battles, not on achieving peace!.
"As a prey animal your horse seeks safety and comfort".
"so when a human uses force, for example, slapping or kicking the horse to reprimand him, the horse sees what he expects to see from a predator, and it confirms that the human cannot be trusted."
"Kind treatment is about understanding the horses's nature and working with it.  It is not ascribing human values" 
"Humans still look like predators.....That can look pretty aggresssive in the eyes of the horse.  Add the occasional slap, jerk of the rope.....and you've just reinforced your horses's instincts that you are as intimidating, inconsistent and untrustworthy as you look."

For many years I followed tradition and achieved success (does passing Pony Club A certificate count as success??) but since I discovered a different way to handle my horses and ponies both they and I are far happier.....none of us consider 'public recognition' aka shows, competitions etc as worth attending, let alone competing in!!!  We enjoy our time together and it shows.....

You are all welcome to slap as much as you like, remember a horse can feel a fly land on him, so he does feel a slap, and a whip stings like crazy.....my idea is to handle my horse like I would like to be handled.....if you make a mistake would you like your tutor/parent/spouse to slap you hard and growl or yell?  Or would you prefer him to stop you and say 'how about trying it this way?'


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## siennamum (21 January 2013)

Alyth said:



			IMO 10 seconds is too long,  it must be INSTANT!!  Count to 10 and see how long it is!!  

Now I want to quote from an excellent horseman that I doubt many of you will have heard of. Carlos Tabernaberri.  
"they (horses) live in the present moment and can't lie"
"aggression in horses is generally caused by lack of trust, and is a learned behaviour.  These horses have strong personalities and, rather than running to hide or escape, will fight."
"my idea of making my horses's 'wrong choice' difficult is to redirect his energy into something that's more work such as sending him out onto a small circle for a few revolutions, which is more uncomfortable."
"Human behaviour is about domination not cooperation.  We focus on winning battles, not on achieving peace!.
"As a prey animal your horse seeks safety and comfort".
"so when a human uses force, for example, slapping or kicking the horse to reprimand him, the horse sees what he expects to see from a predator, and it confirms that the human cannot be trusted."
"Kind treatment is about understanding the horses's nature and working with it.  It is not ascribing human values" 
"Humans still look like predators.....That can look pretty aggresssive in the eyes of the horse.  Add the occasional slap, jerk of the rope.....and you've just reinforced your horses's instincts that you are as intimidating, inconsistent and untrustworthy as you look."

For many years I followed tradition and achieved success (does passing Pony Club A certificate count as success??) but since I discovered a different way to handle my horses and ponies both they and I are far happier.....none of us consider 'public recognition' aka shows, competitions etc as worth attending, let alone competing in!!!  We enjoy our time together and it shows.....

You are all welcome to slap as much as you like, remember a horse can feel a fly land on him, so he does feel a slap, and a whip stings like crazy.....my idea is to handle my horse like I would like to be handled.....if you make a mistake would you like your tutor/parent/spouse to slap you hard and growl or yell?  Or would you prefer him to stop you and say 'how about trying it this way?'
		
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That is interesting about sending horse out on a circle, I have always done that with my gelding, who is extremely dominant, he doesn't take kindly to being smacked or hit (I still will though!!). I still have to get him on a small circle on the yard prior to shoeing etc. if he is in a crabby mood.

I see the points raised here as perfectly reasonable but still can't get past the fact that a smack is effective, that horses who get reprimanded with a jerk on  the lead rope (Linda Parelli's horses !!) or a smack for being rude don't mistrust their handlers 99% of the time, the handlers have a great relationship with their horses based on mutual trust and affection. 
It doesn't have a detrimental effect on the horse.


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## Wagtail (21 January 2013)

This is such an interesting thread.

I think there are some horses that must never, ever be hit. I have two here that I know if I hit them, even gently they would be horrified and would be wary of me for days afterwards. Luckily both horses are exceptionally well mannered. One came to me extremely head shy. You can now cuddle his face, but I know if he was ever smacked on the face, all that work would be undone. I believe this has been caused by badly timed or repeated smacking. 

But there are other horses, whose personalities are much more robust and extroverted. These horses' manners benefit from a well timed smack every now and then when they push their luck. These types are not in the least bit traumatised or offended, and the relationship with their handlers doesn't suffer on bit.

But there is nothing worse than inappropriate hitting of horses, by inept horse people. Just as there is nothing worse than an overly 'soft' person letting their horse get away with anything.


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## siennamum (21 January 2013)

My son's horse needs no more than a quiet verbal reprimand. If you hit him he would be really upset and stressed. When we first had him he couldn't even be patted, in fact we spent weeks patting him firmly all over to desensitise him. he has never been abused or roughly handled, he is just very sensitive.
When walking from one yard to the other last week, my son taught the horse that if he raise his right hand, horse should switch and walk on his left, when he raised his left hand horse should switch and move to right. It took 5 minutes. Horse could make you look like a really good trainer but is actually incredibly intelligent and trainable.

It really is horses for courses. We could produce videos and put them online and make ourselves look like amazing horse trainers.

My grey horse has to be reprimanded about something almost daily. You can ask him to do something one day and he will do it without fuss, the next day he will flatly refuse to do it. If you back off he will completely take over. If he gets away with not doing something you asked him, he is absolute hell for some time afterwards, you have to be zero tolerance with him. If you don't handle him he becomes a bit feral. You can't be overly rough with him as he will kick and bite you back. BUT I periodically will have to smack him, to get him to back up & reinforce aids which he will ignore otherwise which so long as I am being reasonable he is fine with and responds to. I'd be interested in a method which made him compliant without fights, but dont' hold out much hope, I think its just him, with a 'soft' person he would be dangerous and nasty.

2 different horses, 2 completely different approaches. I would love to see a really accomplished NH person with my grey, he is very clever and might respond really well. For now, I just do my best and that includes a smack every now and then. In return he is amiable, biddable and respectful - you just have to be on your toes.


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## AengusOg (21 January 2013)

siennamum said:



			that horses who get reprimanded with a jerk on  the lead rope (Linda Parelli's horses !!) or a smack for being rude don't mistrust their handlers 99% of the time, the handlers have a great relationship with their horses based on mutual trust and affection. 
It doesn't have a detrimental effect on the horse.
		
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I don't think it is helpful to cite Linda Parelli's handling of horses in this discussion. Her methods of handling horses are pretty extreme, and not something I would condone or recommend.

I have always believed that the trainer must establish trust very early in the relationship with the horse for training to be successful, at least in terms of producing a horse which is quiet, compliant and dependable. If the horse does not trust its handler, it is always inclined toward fight or flight.

I find it hard to believe that horses are not damaged by physical violence against them.

I can imagine how I might feel if my employer suddenly slapped me or booted me up the @rse if I ground the gears in the truck, or misunderstood his instructions, or couldn't find what he'd asked me to get.


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## siennamum (21 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			I don't think it is helpful to cite Linda Parelli's handling of horses in this discussion. Her methods of handling horses are pretty extreme, and not something I would condone or recommend.

I have always believed that the trainer must establish trust very early in the relationship with the horse for training to be successful, at least in terms of producing a horse which is quiet, compliant and dependable. If the horse does not trust its handler, it is always inclined toward fight or flight.

I find it hard to believe that horses are not damaged by physical violence against them.

I can imagine how I might feel if my employer suddenly slapped me or booted me up the @rse if I ground the gears in the truck, or misunderstood his instructions, or couldn't find what he'd asked me to get.
		
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If they are damaged by physical violence, then they would never trust or like one another. Mine all all rough with each other at some time or another. They bite each other just because they are in reach, they do it for no reason other than because they can.

I strongly believe submission comes from respect - not the other way round. Like it or not, being forceful can result in respect and submission. It all boils down to whether that's how you want to handle your horses. 

A short sharp reprimand, will result in the horse respecting you and being submissive and happy. I see it all the time. It's how horses gain respect from one another.

you may use the example of the older respected horse who is not feared but looked up to rather than the field bully. We also acquire that role over time, and can be as steady and calm as that lead horse. No lead horse would tolerate being walked through for instance and they would happily, bite, kick and lunge back at the offending junior horse.


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## Wagtail (21 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			find it hard to believe that horses are not damaged by physical violence against them. 

I can imagine how I might feel if my employer suddenly slapped me or booted me up the @rse if I ground the gears in the truck, or misunderstood his instructions, or couldn't find what he'd asked me to get.
		
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But we are not talking about humans here. Most humans do not go around hitting each other. Horses DO. I haven't had to smack my mare in seven years. She understands her boundaries and is trained to do all kinds of things such as fetch a ball, go to any object I point to etc. The only other horse on my yard of seven I have hit, is the foal. And I'm not talking about proper hitting, just a well timed slap with the back of my hand. You try hurting a horse with the back of your hand. He understood this, but thought all my other methods that I tried over several weeks, such as pushing his nose away, playing with his lips etc, were an invitation to play with me and he bit me more. Two well timed slaps (on different days) have stopped him biting me. How has he been damaged? He's not in the slightest bit head shy, comes galloping up to me every time I walk past where he's turned out, wickers at me every time he sees me...


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## Littlelegs (21 January 2013)

Horses are all such individuals, its impossible to come up with a one size fits all method. I have one that has never yet had even a loud 'oy' never mind any form of dominant body language as a reprimand. She was fear aggressive when we first had her, so even the worst behavior just had to be completely avoided, rather than dealt with. These days I'm confident I could shout or use dominant language myself towards her, but her behavior is such it really isn't warranted, & nor do I want to impose myself as a dominant leader, I much prefer her active choice to willingly do my behavior. By contrast I turned out a very ill mannered cob yesterday at another yard. It's been in for days & isn't exactly well behaved at the best of times. Much muttering of getting some calmer, borrowing chifneys, getting someones hefty husband to lead it etc, all the while putting off actually turning it out prompted me to volunteer to just stick it out. And not suprisingly it tried carting me along. It got a sock on the leadrope, then a few metres after tried setting its neck & charging, so lr over nose. It took it seconds to realise that if it barges forwards it felt pressure on its nose & stopped pulling. Then about halfway decided to invade my space, it got an elbow in the shoulder & a loud 'oy', & moved back out. Now there's no debating its like that because it doesn't know any better & has been stuck in for days, entirely a human cause. But it needed to go out yesterday, & being more dominant than I like to be got the job done in minutes. I'm sure the horse was a bit confused by the fact its usual behavior was suddenly being unfairly punished in its eyes. But the pay off was turnout & freedom there & then, which for the horse I think makes my 'unfair' treatment worthwhile. And in more extreme situations I've used a stallion chain for the same sort of reason, because its in the horses best interests to find a method that works short term to allow everyday handling, while you work on the base cause of the horses actual problems. Ideally I wouldn't, but if you inherit anothers lack of good training, you do sometimes need a way that instantly allows the horse to be turned in/out, or to have a wound treated etc until you have had the time to establish trust & respect that allows more gentle methods.


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## 1stclassalan (21 January 2013)

siennamum said:



			I strongly believe submission comes from respect - 
A short sharp reprimand, will result in the horse respecting you.
		
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In defeat - Malice, in victory - REVENGE!

That's how this scenario has always worked with me - why should it be any different for an animal? 

There's an old Hebrew proverb: spare the rod and spoil the child - I think that way too but in my version - take the child fishing with the rod rather than hitting him with it.


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## AdorableAlice (21 January 2013)

Littlelegs said:



			Horses are all such individuals, its impossible to come up with a one size fits all method. I have one that has never yet had even a loud 'oy' never mind any form of dominant body language as a reprimand. She was fear aggressive when we first had her, so even the worst behavior just had to be completely avoided, rather than dealt with. These days I'm confident I could shout or use dominant language myself towards her, but her behavior is such it really isn't warranted, & nor do I want to impose myself as a dominant leader, I much prefer her active choice to willingly do my behavior. By contrast I turned out a very ill mannered cob yesterday at another yard. It's been in for days & isn't exactly well behaved at the best of times. Much muttering of getting some calmer, borrowing chifneys, getting someones hefty husband to lead it etc, all the while putting off actually turning it out prompted me to volunteer to just stick it out. And not suprisingly it tried carting me along. It got a sock on the leadrope, then a few metres after tried setting its neck & charging, so lr over nose. It took it seconds to realise that if it barges forwards it felt pressure on its nose & stopped pulling. Then about halfway decided to invade my space, it got an elbow in the shoulder & a loud 'oy', & moved back out. Now there's no debating its like that because it doesn't know any better & has been stuck in for days, entirely a human cause. But it needed to go out yesterday, & being more dominant than I like to be got the job done in minutes. I'm sure the horse was a bit confused by the fact its usual behavior was suddenly being unfairly punished in its eyes. But the pay off was turnout & freedom there & then, which for the horse I think makes my 'unfair' treatment worthwhile. And in more extreme situations I've used a stallion chain for the same sort of reason, because its in the horses best interests to find a method that works short term to allow everyday handling, while you work on the base cause of the horses actual problems. Ideally I wouldn't, but if you inherit anothers lack of good training, you do sometimes need a way that instantly allows the horse to be turned in/out, or to have a wound treated etc until you have had the time to establish trust & respect that allows more gentle methods.
		
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Exactly, every horse is different and it is impossible to have sweeping rules for all horses.  I have two horses at the moment that are at the extreme ends of handling techniques.

The newly purchased heavyweight cob mare, she totally dominated her lovely previous owners.  She used her 700kg to do her talking, 6 months on she has improved a lot, but the journey has had unpleasant moments for both of us.  A rope halter was very useful, pressure and release lessons on the ground sorted out her space and my space rules.  I still carry half a broom stale ( I hear the cries of horror), when leading her around the farm, and it has been used when she thought it would be fun to crush me against the wall a few times.  This horse is dangerous through no fault of her own.  Had she been handled as a foal/youngster properly she would never have learnt how to use her bulk against people.

The second horse is an 18 months old nervous wreck, equally as dangerous as the cob mare, but his handling is at the other extreme.  This horse cannot be patted, he views that as a smack.  Hours and hours of work is being put into this horse with excellent results.  The broom handle is in use and gradually he is accepting it touching him all over.  He is just starting to push the boundaries on manners and being half shire he is a big boy, correcting him has to be done with a lot of thought and with consistent actions.  Had he been handled from birth in a fair and firm manner none of his problems would have evolved.

Two very different horses, both with severe lack of manners through no fault of their own, both in need of 'correction' to ensure they are equipped to lead a useful life as pleasant, safe horses.  Tricky, this horse business, there is no such thing as one method or rule fits all.


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## AengusOg (21 January 2013)

I am talking about trust, though, Wagtail and siennamum.

Perhaps we should be talking about humans, because they are far more complicated than are horses. In any discussion about the use of physical reprimand of horses there has to be some mention of humans and their behavioural responses in the relationships they have with their horses. 

How many times have we seen posts asking what one should do in a certain situation because a horse does this or that, or advice being sought on such and such a scenario where the horse seems at fault, yet no mention is made of the human counterpart in the relationship. We are effectively being asked to judge the horse and give advice without having any idea about the sort of person involved, or their ability, attitude, temperament, personal outlook, relationships with fellow humans, their stresses, fears, worries, confidence...

None of our business, you may say, but probably very pertinent in terms of any attempts   to advise on their 'problem' with their horse.

Lots of humans 'go round hitting each other'. Lots of others use psychological methods to damage those which they wish to hurt. Lots of humans are vile and treat others terribly. Some are perpetrators; some are victims.

Any one of these people could be a horse owner asking for advice, yet we only hear what the horse is doing 'wrong'.

Horses do knock each other about quite a bit at times. However, they are all horses together. They have to find a way to live together. Unless they are living a feral existence, they have to live in the groups dictated by humans. It's inevitable that the stresses involved with living in human-established herds, in small areas, with limited and managed food regimes, will cause relationship issues. Perhaps their interactions are even influenced by the relationships they all have with their particular humans...who knows?

Humans are not horses. Humans are potential predators who, no matter how much they believe themselves to be horse-friendly, 'Equus'-speaking mimics of horses, are still considered non-horses by horses. Humans have the ability to be extremely dangerous to horses, and horses have to learn to trust them.

It's a partnership we are trying to establish with horses. How many of us would put up with being slapped around by our human partners?


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## cptrayes (21 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			Any one of these people could be a horse owner asking for advice, yet we only hear what the horse is doing 'wrong'.
		
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On this forum, this just isn't true. On every thread I have ever read about a horse doing something "wrong" there will be a number of people who suggest that the horse is in pain, in fear or that the handler is at fault.


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## cptrayes (21 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			It's a partnership we are trying to establish with horses. How many of us would put up with being slapped around by our human partners?
		
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I am not "slapping around my partner" when I slap a horse, I am communicating with him in a language that he understands, a language in which other horses "talk" to him. 

Your whole post starts from the premise that in a perfect environment horses would never kick bite or punch each other, and that any behaviours like that which they show when we see them is caused by our way of keeping them. 

In my view, that is simply completely incorrect.


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## AengusOg (21 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			On this forum, this just isn't true. On every thread I have ever read about a horse doing something "wrong" there will be a number of people who suggest that the horse is in pain, in fear or that the handler is at fault.
		
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You miss my point cpt.


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## siennamum (21 January 2013)

I don't think that horses treat us as other horses and I don't think they expect us to behave as their friends and fieldmates behave. I think we have to create frameworks which result in the right behaviours and in many cases the reference points are duplications of behaviour they understand.
If I get my horse to back away from me, he gets that -  he understands it is because I am dominant in our relationship.
My horse and his best friend really squabble over their adjacent stable doors, lots of tooth bashing and nipping. (they still completely trust one another, my horse would follow his best friend through fire. His best friend is the field bully who is never bullying towards mine.)
Neither horse would dream of being mouthy towards a hunan though, they have a different set of behaviours and they know it. They know they shouldn't through being reprimanded early in life for inappropriate behaviour.

I think we have to assume we are dominant, I don't know how anyone could safely have any other relationship with their horse. Some relationships are less clear cut than others buit the debate is how aggressive you have to be as a person to become the dominant party. I don;t think a slap is as aggressive as the biting/kickin/lunging my horses indulge in, they understand why they might get a slap because it works.


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## cptrayes (21 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			You miss my point cpt. 

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You mean the original poster only? OK

Thankfully we have plenty of people on this forum who are not too shy to put them right


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## cptrayes (21 January 2013)

Tinypony said:



			I think it's one thing to poke a bit of light-hearted banter at someone (as PR does), but completely another to start posting personal insults as you have done about anyone.
		
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It is not lighthearted banter to tell everyone who cannot hunt their horse with reins attached by cotton that they do not know how to train horses. It is not lighthearted banter to tell everyone who uses any bit other than a snaffle, or actually needs to use the reins,  that they don't know how to ride. It is not lighthearted banter to tell people who are being walked all over by a horse that someone else has badly trained that they must not hit it under any circumstances and have failed in their management of the horse if they do.

If PR sets himself up by making such assertions in the holier-than-thou fashion that he does, and then refuses to explain how he would do things differently, (as he has on every thread I have seen him on except this one where he was pressured by a group of people into giving a tiny bit of information) then I'm afraid that I think he is due whatever insults come his way.


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## Kallibear (21 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			I find it hard to believe that horses are not damaged by physical violence against them.

I can imagine how I might feel if my employer suddenly slapped me or booted me up the @rse if I ground the gears in the truck, or misunderstood his instructions, or couldn't find what he'd asked me to get.
		
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Again you are assuming that horses ONLY ever do the wrong thing because they don't understand. I don't agree with that. As some have pointed out, there are very different personalities with horses and esp  the rhino skinned thugs will understand perfectly what they are MEANT to be doing but will do something else because their desire for whatever overruled their respect and desire to do what they're asked. Easiest example would be 'forgetting their manners' and diving into a tasty looking patch of grass, dragging their handler with them. They KNOW they're not to pull nor drag but that grass is just sooooo tempting....... A sensitive gentle horse will be chastised enough by a yank on the rope and a sharp no! A thick skinned thug  will quickly decide that the punishment of 'being re directed' or whatever it is Pale Rider would do instead is totally worth a mouthful of grass. Maybe the horse should have it's eyes constantly fixed on you like the automon cptrays described but that isn't exactly real life realistic!

Your example of being hit bt an employer because you COULDN'T do as asked is not the same as being hit because you WOULDN'T do as asked (should hitting humans be appropriate). You'd feel very different if you got a clip round the ear for doing the wrong thing because you misunderstood and getting a clip round the ear for doing the wrong thing because you simply didn't bother listening.

Horse are the same and Im sure people will agree with me when I say horses react very differently to a uncalled for slap than they do to a well deserved smack. The first frightens and confuses them. The 'deserved' smack get a very different reaction: often a bit huffy, sometimes a bit shocked if they've been allowed to be rude on the past, but no fear or confusion. I've found that even the sharp and sensitive react the same to a 'deserved' smack.

It's also rarely 'suddenly' being smacked. The horse gets a warning but Im not going to repeat myself over and over again because it's not listening! Of course it's my responsibility to ensure they understood what I asked in the first place but as I've said before I don't believe all 'bad behaviour' is a result of misunderstanding.


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## cptrayes (21 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			I'm sure people will agree with me when I say horses react very differently to a uncalled for slap than they do to a well deserved smack. The first frightens and confuses them. The 'deserved' smack get a very different reaction: often a bit huffy, sometimes a bit shocked if they've been allowed to be rude on the past, but no fear or confusion. I've found that even the sharp and sensitive react the same to a 'deserved' smack.
		
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I completely agree with this Kallibear, and I'd go so far as to say that occasionally I have had a horse which is a leader but also a worrier react to a slap with an obvious and instant  "oh thank goodness for that, someone has taken control and I can relax at last".


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## AengusOg (21 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Horse are the same and Im sure people will agree with me when I say horses react very differently to a uncalled for slap than they do to a well deserved smack. The first frightens and confuses them. The 'deserved' smack get a very different reaction: often a bit huffy, sometimes a bit shocked if they've been allowed to be rude on the past, but no fear or confusion. I've found that even the sharp and sensitive react the same to a 'deserved' smack.
		
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How do you ascertain whether they know the difference?

I have been asked to work with horses which have been inclined to take advantage of inept handlers and dive for a tasty bite of grass. It's a 'problem' which is easily sorted in a few minutes by properly teaching the horse to yield to light pressure on the halter, and by teaching the handler that they must attentively handle their horse.

Do you think the horse deserved a slap, or should the handler have got it?


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## Inona (21 January 2013)

I never touch my horse with the whip simply because I only have to show it to her for her to pick up the pace or start behaving. She has recently started snatching the reins slightly and when she does that I hit her with my hand on her neck which gives her a fright and stops her although I'm sure it doesn't hurt her. However my friend's horse has skin like a rhino and is always stopping to eat and when she smacks him he takes no notice at all!


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## AengusOg (21 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I'd go so far as to say that occasionally I have had a horse which is a leader but also a worrier react to a slap with an obvious and instant  "oh thank goodness for that, someone has taken control and I can relax at last".
		
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OMG! Do you really believe that?


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## cptrayes (21 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			How do you ascertain whether they know the difference?
		
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They dont have to, it's the handler who decides that it's justified and does not do it unless it is.

No-one denies that there are bad handlers who hit horses for the wrong reasons, but that isn't what we are talking about.


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## cptrayes (21 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			OMG! Do you really believe that?
		
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I believe it because it has happened more than once in front of my eyes. You can see the "letting go" as they realise that they don't have to be the one who worries any more. 

These are horses which probably came from people who said "there there" and "reassured" the horse when it was worried. Of course they did no such thing, what they did was reward, with a pat and nice words, worried behaviour and caused the horse to think that it was right to worry.



It really would help this discussion if you would stop reacting as if by "a slap" I meant that I went and fetched a whip and beat the living daylights out of the creature  !!


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## AengusOg (21 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			You mean the original poster only? OK
		
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Nope.  I didn't mean the original poster only. I mean in general.


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## siennamum (21 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			OMG! Do you really believe that?
		
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I think it works in the same way as riding assertively when a horse is worried. Horse relaxes because you are in charge


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## wernickwonder (21 January 2013)

No No No would use my voice to warn about dangerous behaviour but your perception of what is naughty and theirs is worlds apart.  Also peoples ideas of what is considered to be acceptable punishment for crime is very different too, from a tap punch whack where do you stop when your horse is terrified of you and hurting? nice!  I have seen people who are obviously in a bad mood or showing off take it out on their horses and it is not pleasant.


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## Kallibear (21 January 2013)

If the horse is aware that they shouldn't dive into the tasty grass (most are!) the yes, a slap is appropriate. There are other ways of reprimanding (which I may use on different personalities of horses) but I've found a smack more effective for thugs.

Most horses, even well trained ones, will try it occasionally regardless that they've been told no! many times in the past and they're _meant_ to have their attention fixed on their handler. That is not practical or realistic in every day situations. I do not give the horse my completely undivided attention every second I am with them, nor do I except to have to. I have other thing to do. I also don't expect my horse to hang on to every breath I take and have their undivided attentions every second of every day. Unless I ask for it. They are entitled to think for themselves. But I do expect them to stick to all the basic rules they know (and I have ensured Im 100% certain they know) at all times, which includes no yanking the rope!

I entirely disagree that appropriate force (smack, punch, nip etc) is frightening or confusing for a horse and damages the relationship. OF COURSE unfair punishment is damaging and I don't think anyone here has argued it isn't (what is 'unfair' is a whole new can of worms)

You have decided that smacking an animal is *morally* wrong and I respect and understand that but don't expect others to live by YOUR morals (I realised your are far less extreme and more accommodating than someone like Pale Rider), nor justify them to others with statements that others have found to untrue.


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## cptrayes (21 January 2013)

wernickwonder said:



			No No No would use my voice to warn about dangerous behaviour but your perception of what is naughty and theirs is worlds apart.
		
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I consider my role as a trainer is to ensure that the horse has exactly the same perception as me as to what is "naughty"   (which I would prefer to call unacceptable)  and what is not. 






			Also peoples ideas of what is considered to be acceptable punishment for crime is very different too, from a tap punch whack where do you stop when your horse is terrified of you and hurting? nice!
		
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A decent trainer knows when the horse is terrified or hurting. There is no accounting for idiots, you'll find them in all walks of life, but it does not mean every slap is wrong. 

Use of the word "crime" is inappropriately emotive, IMO. A horse overstepping a known boundary is not committing a crime, it's being a horse.


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## Kallibear (21 January 2013)

Also, you clearly believe that horses only ever show bad/rude/naughty/whatever behaviour because they are frightened or don't understand. I again entirely disagree and probably the biggest reason we are sitting on very different sides of the fence. There are times when horses don't do as they are asked because it doesn't suit their current agenda. The closest a horse can come to 'don't want to' or 'can't be bothered'.

Many people of here have given examples of why the smack their horse and to be honest, reading between the lines, some of them are inappropriate. But that still does not make all smacking innappropriate.


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## Kallibear (21 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I consider my role as a trainer is to ensure that the horse has exactly the same perception as me as to what is "naughty"   (which I would prefer to call unacceptable)  and what is not.
		
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Ditto. If your horse does not know what you class as naughty/inappropriate/unacceptable behaviour then you've not do a very good job training it! If you have not spelt out the rules clearly to them then it is never appropriate to smack them for getting it wrong. And course the hoses who HAVE had the rules make very clear very infrequently need smacked for breaking them. There are always the bulshy pushy thick skinned rhino but even they learn eventually. Which is why many many people say they rarely ever need to smack their horse.


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## AengusOg (21 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I believe it because it has happened more than once in front of my eyes. You can see the "letting go" as they realise that they don't have to be the one who worries any more. 

These are horses which probably came from people who said "there there" and "reassured" the horse when it was worried. Of course they did no such thing, what they did was reward, with a pat and nice words, worried behaviour and caused the horse to think that it was right to worry.



It really would help this discussion if you would stop reacting as if by "a slap" I meant that I went and fetched a whip and beat the living daylights out of the creature  !!
		
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Do you think you are helping? 

As far as horses realising that they don't have to be the one who worries anymore, this can all be done through the use of pressure and release and sensible handling. One doesn't have to dominate and strike a horse for it to assume the position in the relationship where it relinquishes responsibility for itself. 

As soon as a trainer has a horse leading nicely, stopping, starting, following around, backing up, and standing quietly, when signalled to do so, the horse is already free of worries, confident and trusting of its handler to look after it. With that comes compliance and trainability. Once that relationship is established, it can be maintained thereafter by sensible, consistent, attentive handling. Why would it change?


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## diamonddogs (21 January 2013)

But does a horse have any concept of what "naughty" is? I don't think so - that would be humanising them one step too far. S/he will have learned that humans don't approve of certain behaviour and it will earn them a reprimand of whatever denomination the handler uses, smack or other.

It's like, say, I dismount because my horse naps and puts me in danger. Just about everyone I know will say "Oh well, that's it. You've let her get away with it, so she'll do it every time now to get her own way". Nonsense! It's never happened. Horses simply don't think like that! That would be assigning them the powers of reason, which they simply don't have, or at least not on the same level as a human has.

I agree with the poster (sorry, I've forgotten now who it was) who said that they relax when they realise they don't have to be in charge - I've seen it with mine and many other horses. My own mare (not the one I have now) once shared a field with some youngsters, and she felt she had to keep them in check, and there was no other senior horse so it was left to her, and it honestly stressed her. She absolutely didn't want this responsibility and was a much happier horse when she was removed from the situation.

Another time, she was number two in quite a large herd, and was happy to stay there. The senior mare was off sick for several weeks (box rest ) and my mare was left in charge. She was OK with it this time, and when alpha came back into the field there was a very half-hearted leadership challenge and she relinquished the herd, and again was much more chilled.


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## cptrayes (21 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			As soon as a trainer has a horse leading nicely, stopping, starting, following around, backing up, and standing quietly, when signalled to do so, the horse is already free of worries, confident and trusting of its handler to look after it. With that comes compliance and trainability. Once that relationship is established, it can be maintained thereafter by sensible, consistent, attentive handling. *Why would it change?*

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Because life sometimes throws them a curved ball?

I think we have established already that I actually do not want my horses to be like zombies who never ever put a foot out of place and are minutely focussed on me at all times that I am in their sight.

I like my horses to be highly sensitive, and because of the way they are bred and the fact that they are very fit, they _are_ highly sensitive.

This means that from time to time, rarely, they will, for example, forget their manners and stand blocking the stable door when I have opened it because they are so interested in the fact that a crisp packet has blown down the yard and is heading for them at high speed carried by the wind. In that situation, I say "back" once, and if they fail to respond to that I either slap or punch their shoulder about where the neck joins it. They reconnect with me and step back calmly.  If I was to anthropomorphise I would say that they also appear to be apologetic for their lapse of manners 

I do not, myself, see any failure of my training in that, or see any problem to the horse in that, and if you do, we will simply have to agree to differ.

But I can tell you that if your horses would NOT react in that situation, ever, that they would not be horses that I would want in my yard.  I don't mean by that that there is anything wrong with your horses, just that I like horses with rather more spirit than other people do.





ps I have found a Facebook page which I think belongs to PR under his real name. If it is not him it is someone who appears to train his horses the same way. The page has on it lots of photos of horses doing what PR says that he does with his. Whether this is PR's page or not is largely irrelevant, what strikes me most about it is that in most of the photos the horses simply do not, to me, look either happy with or interested in, their work.  If that's the result of this "kinder" way of training, I don't want that, either.


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## AengusOg (21 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			You have decided that smacking an animal is *morally* wrong and I respect and understand that but don't expect others to live by YOUR morals (I realised your are far less extreme and more accommodating than someone like Pale Rider), nor justify them to others with statements that others have found to untrue.
		
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If this is addressed to me, I'm not sure I have made any decisions based on morals. I just happen to believe that hitting horses is unnecessary and difficult to justify.


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## puss (21 January 2013)

I am a smacker if my horse is naughty i smack hard when my cob only three at the time give me both barrels for no reason kicking me though a stable door picked up my plastic shovel and battered his big bum in eighteen years he has never lifted a leg at me again lesson learnt I would love never to smack any of my horses but will not put up with bad manners kicking or biting ever. And have been told my horses have excellent manners which makes me proud of them and i have very good bond with all my horses but me and my cob are very close


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## AengusOg (21 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Also, you clearly believe that horses only ever show bad/rude/naughty/whatever behaviour because they are frightened or don't understand. 
.
		
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Not true. It is often the case, particularly with the training of young horses, that they may behave inappropriately through fear or lack of understanding, but there are of course other reasons why some horses may behave badly.


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## Christsam (21 January 2013)

Gosh this topic has got interesting since I last looked!

Kallibear and CP Trayes I agree with what you say totally.  What we have to remember is that in the wild or in the field if a horse barges then they are likely going to be double barrelled by whoever they are trying to shove out of the way.  A slap from us really isnt going to hurt them as much as a kick from another horse would so no, it is not cruel or unnecessary as long as it is used at the right time.  

My boy is 4, a big warmblood and, yes, there are times when he does something "wrong" as he doesnt know what he is doing.  For instance, He was lightly backed towards the end of last year.  When i apply a small amount of pressure with my legs he, at first, turned his head and bit my boot.  He is young so no reprimand, just used a leader to reinforce that when i touch it means forward.  however, the beast will have a bite when I open the door to go into his stable or put his headcollar on.  This is not because he doesnt know what he is doing, its because he is being a bit bolshy b****r so he gets a sharp tap  on the end of his muzzle.  He is not headshy in the slightest, nor frightened of people.  In fact, it makes little difference as the likelihood is the next day he will do it again anyway.  Most other things a sharply spoken "oy" will do the trick.

Same with the dragging to grass.  He will drag me as he has just discovered that in a headcollar there is not a lot little me can do to stop him.  He doesnt run, just walks off in whatever direction he wants to.  I do not smack for this though, but I do now lead him in a bridle.

Unfortunately, whilst we would all love to live in a world where our horse never does anything wrong and we never have to reprimand them but its not going to happen and with 600kg of young horse I cannot let him get the better of me.


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## Nic (21 January 2013)

Got double barrelled on Saturday, too bloody right he got skelped!


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## diamonddogs (21 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			... This means that from time to time, rarely, they will, for example, forget their manners and stand blocking the stable door when I have opened it because they are so interested in the fact that a crisp packet has blown down the yard and is heading for them at high speed carried by the wind. In that situation, I say "back" once, and if they fail to respond to that I either slap or punch their shoulder about where the neck joins it. *They reconnect with me* and step back calmly.  If I was to anthropomorphise I would say that they also appear to be apologetic for their lapse of manners  ...
		
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*BIB* I think that sums it up nicely for me - I've read comments like "my horses wouldn't do X, Y or Z because I've trained them properly and you haven't"  but at the end of the day we have here a large fight or flight animal that will from time to time focus completely on something that either fascinates or horrifies him, to the point where nothing else exists except the object in question. If a simple "Watch me!" with a snap of the fingers doesn't bring his attention back, then a poke in the ribs or shoulder would be appropriate.

Smacks are normally reserved for the more serious crime.


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## Fii (21 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			I find it hard to believe that horses are not damaged by physical violence against them.


  to help you understand i advise watching a group/herd of horses, and how they interact with each other, especially when they are eating, they first warn with a flick of the head, then maybe a stamp of a foot, if all warnings are ignored, they will then either kick or bite, They use physical violence against each other, far more violent than i could ever be! 

I can imagine how I might feel if my employer suddenly slapped me or booted me up the @rse if I ground the gears in the truck, or misunderstood his instructions, or couldn't find what he'd asked me to get.
		
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 first of all you are a human, and communicate verbally with speech, so of course that would be wrong of an employer!  not really a good argument!


 Sorry middle bit of quoted area is my comment!


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## Dry Rot (21 January 2013)

I came across this video of wild horses on YouTube which includes a very sad and shocking sequence showing how a stallion dealt with a sick foal. 

Stallions are quite capable of dealing with others in the herd in a similar way. I don't think horses which can do this to each other are going to be terribly upset by a smack from a human, are they? The smack, assuming it isn't more than that, let alone a beating, is simply a reminder of where they stand on the social scale.

[youtube]PPyA60lQDR4[/youtube]


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## E13 (21 January 2013)

Sad video


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## Tinypony (22 January 2013)

I don't think it contributes to the debate does it?  It doesn't show horses physically punishing/reprimanding/smacking each other.  Surely that's driven by a survival instinct.


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## fburton (22 January 2013)

"Horses sometimes behave violently towards each other, so it's alright for us to behave violently towards them - and anyway, we could never hurt them as much as they can hurt each other."

At first sight it would appear that some people buy into that argument wholesale and even excuse harsh treatment that way. But do they really?? (FWIW, I personally think it is crap.)

Is it alright to kick a horse in the belly? It's much less forceful than one horse double-barreling another, after all. I've seen more than one farrier do it, and there was the example of the 'abusive' French NH trainer who was roundly criticized in a thread here recently. "But she didn't _need_ to do it!" Is that the essential difference? Or does it come down to whether the violent action is _effective_ or not?


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## PandorasJar (22 January 2013)

I think that's completely different. She was booting it with no clear command on what to do when the horse was not behaving dangerously.

I think it comes down to effectiveness to a certain extent. But depends on your definition. I don't define terrifying a horse into never putting a foot out of line because you unpredictably might attack it effective. I don't think snacking a scared horse is effective either.

Personally I do it in dangerous situations (as described earlier) or to snap attention back on me. I just as often clap my hands/whistle/shout oi. It's not a smack for the physical force. I would never do it in anger or frustration either. I also think smack isn't necessarily the right word.


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## fburton (22 January 2013)

PandorasJar said:



			I think that's completely different. She was booting it with no clear command on what to do when the horse was not behaving dangerously.
		
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I agree - but presumably she too could 'justify' her actions by pointing out that what she did was mild compared to what horses do to each other?

Indeed, someone posting in support of her wrote this: "First thing she tries to do is establish that although she is small, her space is to be respected. She has no stick, but neither do horses in a pasture, so she uses the tools she has, her body posture, her voice, the skinny rope halter, and when the horse tries to knock her down, she responds EXACTLY like horses respond to each other NATURALLY in a field with her feet! One let me point out that a 120 lb human kicking a 1200 lb horse with reg riding boots on, IS NOT causing ANY great PAIN or INJURY to the horse! She does however quickly and EFFECTIVELY establish respect for her space..." Was he/she wrong to claim this?

I think it's a dangerous argument because of how people use it. We can either reject it completely (which I am happy to do) or decide on a way to qualify it to discourage people from misapplying it.


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## Wagtail (22 January 2013)

Like everything else to do with horses, there are some people who are totally inept around them. They have no instinct, no feel, and no timing.These are the types of people who will use inappropriate discipline. 

I only use a smack for one thing, and that's biting. That is because in all my many years with horses, I have found it to be the quickest and most understandable way of effectively dealing with it. However, with a young horse that does not understand what is expected of it around humans, then I will use other methods for some time before resorting to an upwards slap or elbow. With an older horse that DOES understand what is acceptable behaviour around humans, it would get an elbow or slap in the first instance. With an older horse that is new to me, and therefore I do not know what it understands, I will try other methods first.

ETA: I have thought about another situation where I have hit a horse, and that was when I was repeatably being slammed against the wall.


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## lastchancer (22 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Because life sometimes throws them a curved ball?

I think we have established already that I actually do not want my horses to be like zombies who never ever put a foot out of place and are minutely focussed on me at all times that I am in their sight.

I like my horses to be highly sensitive, and because of the way they are bred and the fact that they are very fit, they _are_ highly sensitive.

This means that from time to time, rarely, they will, for example, forget their manners and stand blocking the stable door when I have opened it because they are so interested in the fact that a crisp packet has blown down the yard and is heading for them at high speed carried by the wind. In that situation, I say "back" once, and if they fail to respond to that I either slap or punch their shoulder about where the neck joins it. They reconnect with me and step back calmly.  If I was to anthropomorphise I would say that they also appear to be apologetic for their lapse of manners 

I do not, myself, see any failure of my training in that, or see any problem to the horse in that, and if you do, we will simply have to agree to differ.

But I can tell you that if your horses would NOT react in that situation, ever, that they would not be horses that I would want in my yard.  I don't mean by that that there is anything wrong with your horses, just that I like horses with rather more spirit than other people do.





ps I have found a Facebook page which I think belongs to PR under his real name. If it is not him it is someone who appears to train his horses the same way. The page has on it lots of photos of horses doing what PR says that he does with his. Whether this is PR's page or not is largely irrelevant, what strikes me most about it is that in most of the photos the horses simply do not, to me, look either happy with or interested in, their work.  If that's the result of this "kinder" way of training, I don't want that, either.
		
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Very good post, it's the glassy eyed automaton effect that put me right of the whole Parelli thing. If I trained my cheeky, happy and out going horse the the extent that he was semi catatonic I would be mortified. The people who are good at this type of training do often seem to end up with unnaturally subservient horses.
As for PR, well I wouldn't like to be his missus, put it that way....


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## amandap (22 January 2013)

fburton said:



			"Horses sometimes behave violently towards each other, so it's alright for us to behave violently towards them - and anyway, we could never hurt them as much as they can hurt each other."

At first sight it would appear that some people buy into that argument wholesale and even excuse harsh treatment that way. But do they really?? *(FWIW, I personally think it is crap.)*

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Me too.

We are not horses, obviously, so why is it alright to hit, kick, chuck things at them because we see them being aggressive to each other?  Do we speak 'horse'? I really think it's unfair to use hitting as a tool, yes there are times when a sharp slap in response to for eg a bite might be appropriate/inevitable and of course we do have reflex actions but in the main imho it stops us learning to read horses earlier signals and to use preemptive tactics. 
What about thinking how to avoid putting a horse in a position where it feels the need to defend itself?  What if we have misread a situation or missed a horses more subtle signals it is getting stressed/annoyed/upset?


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## lastchancer (22 January 2013)

amandap said:



			What about thinking how to avoid putting a horse in a position where it feels the need to defend itself?  What if we have misread a situation or missed a horses more subtle signals it is getting stressed/annoyed/upset? 

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By this logic you would; avoid approaching horse thats reputed to bite, not attempt to reschool a nappy horse, not put a horse in a lorry, not take it to a show,not take it on the road...?

Horse's at times will get stressed/annoyed/upset by what we ask them to do, but they have to learn to deal with these things in an appropriate way, and that means not biting or barging all over humans/cars and so on. Not one person on here is trying to justify giving a horse a mindless hiding. I really can't see why some people are so against a smack delivered at the right time, and yet look to Natural Horsemanship as some kind of uber humane answer to all.


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## amandap (22 January 2013)

lastchancer said:



			By this logic you would; avoid approaching horse thats reputed to bite, not attempt to reschool a nappy horse, not put a horse in a lorry, not take it to a show,not take it on the road...?

Horse's at times will get stressed/annoyed/upset by what we ask them to do, but they have to learn to deal with these things in an appropriate way, and that means not biting or barging all over humans/cars and so on. Not one person on here is trying to justify giving a horse a mindless hiding. I really can't see why some people are so against a smack delivered at the right time, and yet look to Natural Horsemanship as some kind of uber humane answer to all.
		
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 By my logic it means reschooling/retraining not using the whip or 'bossing them'. I fully admit I am not the greatest trainer but there are many ways to train and retrain a horse that don't involve us forcing them with physical violence. 

Surely if a horse is going to shows on roads etc. it is trained slowly over time to be used to these things to reduce stress levels? Why would that involve a slap delivered at the right time?

I am into my version of NH which looks to the horse for guidance about management as well as training. Why work against the horse?


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## PandorasJar (22 January 2013)

fburton said:



			I agree - but presumably she too could 'justify' her actions by pointing out that what she did was mild compared to what horses do to each other?

Indeed, someone posting in support of her wrote this: "First thing she tries to do is establish that although she is small, her space is to be respected. She has no stick, but neither do horses in a pasture, so she uses the tools she has, her body posture, her voice, the skinny rope halter, and when the horse tries to knock her down, she responds EXACTLY like horses respond to each other NATURALLY in a field with her feet! One let me point out that a 120 lb human kicking a 1200 lb horse with reg riding boots on, IS NOT causing ANY great PAIN or INJURY to the horse! She does however quickly and EFFECTIVELY establish respect for her space..." Was he/she wrong to claim this?

I think it's a dangerous argument because of how people use it. We can either reject it completely (which I am happy to do) or decide on a way to qualify it to discourage people from misapplying it.
		
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I believe the rest of my post and previous posts addressed this - I use it in dangerous situations, not as a generic training method. 

I don't think that just because you physically haven't caused pain you haven't damaged that horse.

Horses haven't done this naturally in a field. They warn and follow through... but they don't drag a horse into their space to do this. I don't agree with any situation setting a horse up to fail in order to teach it something.


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## cptrayes (22 January 2013)

"violent" "harsh" "damage"  

My goodness  what strong and emotive words are being thrown around in this thread!

NONE of them apply to me occasionally slapping a horse or biffing it with a closed fist.

I really don't think we are all talking about the same thing here 




I also don't believe that it is possible to physically damage a horse without causing it pain, it's not a fish it's a mammal and one highly tuned to feel pain, at that.  The only thing which would be in pain is the human!


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## Shutterbug (22 January 2013)

If he gets in my space he gets a slap from the flat of my hand and yelled at and he quickly moves - if hes messing about out riding and is being a danger to us both and not listening to my leg I will back it up with the whip and if necessary, give him a smack to get him to move over - only once have I had to do this when he was prancing sideways up a lane as a car was trying to pass - I got to a place where there was room and he refused to move his backside in off the road - driver was being impatient and revving and I had images of him screeching past and hitting my horse so I smacked Arion on the rear and he quickly moved over.  it was necessary to avoid an accident but I am not in the habit of hitting my horse for no good reason and there is a world of difference between discipline and abuse


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## Kallibear (22 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			"violent" "harsh" "damage"  

My goodness  what strong and emotive words are being thrown around in this thread!

NONE of them apply to me occasionally slapping a horse or biffing it with a closed fist.

I really don't think we are all talking about the same thing here 

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It's the classic HHO deliberate misunderstanding and the love for scandal. Of course those who smack their horse occasionally for extremely rude/dangerous behaviour hit their horse ALL the time. They prob enjoy it too  And obviously a regular smack a day is a good tried and tested training method. I mean, I have a 'Smacking Sheet': bit like a Gold Star sheet but the opposite. Don't you?! And surely no one just slaps their horse once? Doesn't every one beat their horse multiple times to relieve frustration?


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## cptrayes (22 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			It's the classic HHO deliberate misunderstanding and the love for scandal. Of course those who smack their horse occasionally for extremely rude/dangerous behaviour hit their horse ALL the time. They prob enjoy it too  And obviously a regular smack a day is a good tried and tested training method. I mean, I have a 'Smacking Sheet': bit like a Gold Star sheet but the opposite. Don't you?! And surely no one just slaps their horse once? Doesn't every one beat their horse multiple times to relieve frustration?
		
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I beat them far more often when I am frustrated by being snowed in, as well. I'm sure they understand 

At least this thread has kept me busy and given them some respite from my violence.


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## Wagtail (22 January 2013)

All those people who NEVER EVER hit their horses (elbow block, slap to the chest or nose with the back of the hand etc). I hope you never use bits, or rope halters (those knots cause a lot more pain than a slap with the back of the hand), or tighten girths, never frighten the horse with the end of the rope to move it forwards, never give the horse a corrective tug on the rope, never ride horses...


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## tallyho! (22 January 2013)

I think you all need to give yourselves a good thrashing.


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## amandap (22 January 2013)

I was trying to question the rationale of 'it's ok to hit horses because they kick and bite each other'. I have fully understood most only do it when they feel they have to and for safety reasons. I would hit a horse if I was in danger and I thought it would work and I can't put my hand on my heart and say if a horse bit me I wouldn't lash out because I don't know. I will block a horse but I wouldn't add a jab to that block. I will use pressure to hold a horse too. My yanking days are long over though. 

I just don't like hitting as a management and training tool, I realize it's a very personal choice. It is a choice in the vast majority of cases though.


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## fburton (22 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			"violent" "harsh" "damage"  

My goodness  what strong and emotive words are being thrown around in this thread!

NONE of them apply to me occasionally slapping a horse or biffing it with a closed fist.

I really don't think we are all talking about the same thing here 

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"Violent" and "harsh" were brought up specifically in relation to the argument that hitting isn't a big deal because horses do worse to each other. You wouldn't justify occasionally slapping or biffing a horse on _those_ grounds, would you? Clearly some people do!


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## fburton (22 January 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			The smack, assuming it isn't more than that, let alone a beating, is simply a reminder of where they stand on the social scale.
		
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Do you believe we are part of their 'social scale'?


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## siennamum (22 January 2013)

tallyho! said:



			I think you all need to give yourselves a good thrashing.



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you've been reading the wrong riding books I think.....


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## Wagtail (22 January 2013)

amandap said:



			I will use pressure to hold a horse too. My yanking days are long over though.
		
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That is interesting. So what would you do if presented by a heavyweight cob that took every opportunity to tank off with you when you were leading it? We all know that if you simply applied a constant (non yanking) pressure, he would win the argument hands down. What would you do in that situation? As a livery yard owner, I am sometimes presented with horses to care for in full livery that have been allowed to get away with behaviour such as this. I have to retrain them so that I can safely care for them. How would you tackle it?


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## fburton (22 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			All those people who NEVER EVER hit their horses (elbow block, slap to the chest or nose with the back of the hand etc). I hope you never use bits, or rope halters (those knots cause a lot more pain than a slap with the back of the hand), or tighten girths, never frighten the horse with the end of the rope to move it forwards, never give the horse a corrective tug on the rope, never ride horses...
		
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I don't think it's simply the degree of physical pain that causes the problem in many cases. The horse's perception, including of intent, is very important too. I'm sure the slap I gave the horse didn't really _hurt_. Nevertheless, the effects were long lasting. Perhaps the result would have been different had I delivered a reprimand without anger - I'm not sure.

A horse that gets a bump on the nose may react quite differently depending on whether it was delivered as an overt reprimand, with or without anger, or as a direct consequence of its own actions. I would much prefer to punish biting attempts with an elbow block (and have done so many times over the years) than by smacking the horse after the attempt has occurred. It's not just a matter of timing, though. With the former, there is a good chance the horse perceives the bump as 'self harm', and that he had better heed boundaries having come up against something hard. With the latter, the is more of a chance that the horse sees me as an aggressor (whether dominant or not in the social sense is to my mind irrelevant), and its effectiveness as a punishment may actually be reduced because a 'personal' element has been introduced. For example, if a stallion perceives a slap as an aggressive move, he is more likely to escalate aggressions himself. That is why I would always choose a blocking move to punish biting if that alternative is available.

Of course, the issue of _why_ the horse is wanting to bite me in the first place needs to be addressed. Just mouthiness? Easy solution. Fear? Dislike? Dominance? That really should be a reason, unless one has been foolish enough to play dominance games by attempting to emulate the attitudes and actions of another horse. Simple aggressiveness then (e.g. hormonally driven)? Punishing the behaviour is appropriate, certainly, but being seen as aggressive oneself isn't helpful, in my experience. Much better to work towards getting the horse to relax and feel comfortable in your presence, rewarding good behaviour and attitude. However, one short paragraph can't do justice to such a large topic.

Regarding the other potential sources of pain that you mentioned - the equipment we use routinely - obviously we should take care to use them in ways that don't cause pain. Even if a degree of discomfort is unavoidable, we can aim to reduce it to the minimum necessary. In my opinion, that is a core principle of good horsemanship, whether we're talking about bit pressures, corrective tugs, or riding in general.


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## amandap (22 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			That is interesting. So what would you do if presented by a heavyweight cob that took every opportunity to tank off with you when you were leading it? We all know that if you simply applied a constant (non yanking) pressure, he would win the argument hands down. What would you do in that situation? As a livery yard owner, I am sometimes presented with horses to care for in full livery that have been allowed to get away with behaviour such as this. I have to retrain them so that I can safely care for them. How would you tackle it?
		
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One of two ways. Training to lead properly in a school or other safe low pressure environment to reduce risk of tanking. Lots of exercizes getting the horse to stop when I stop, turn with me and away from me and step back. I might well use a dually (there you go... controversy for you to jump on) for a more precise pressure and release and when the horse responds even in a tiny way and build up slowly. Lots of scratches the horse likes etc. when the horse responds in a way I wish. A normal head collar might well do for the safe training area but as I would need the horse to understand the dually nose pressure for more stressful leading I would use that.
I personally would use a dually (as opposed to a bit) and long 12ft lead rope for general leading (and control) until the horse had learned not to tank off through the lessons of understanding and responding to pressure through the release. I prefer to use the dually because I have used it and am confident how to use it without yanking but it still applies enough pressure to enable me to have a good chance of control (along with leverage of the long lead rope) if the horse did decide to tank. My belief is that the dually doesn't cause enough pressure to inflict pain unless it is yanked or the horse was tied to a solid object with the training rings. That's a big no no. It certainly applies discomfort which I admit could be painful if the horse tanked and took a very strong pull. I balance this discomfort with a need for safety and believe it is preferable to using a bit. Many disagree.

Or I would try my (cack) hand at clicker training the horse to stay with me, walk with me, stop with me etc. again in an environment less likely to provoke the tank until the leading is learned well and then progress to using it in more risky situations.

Some might prefer to use a rope head collar, horses for courses imo. 

What would you do?

ps. I forgot to mention I would also look at ways I could change the environment or routine to reduce the risk of the tank.


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## Christsam (22 January 2013)

amandap said:



 By my logic it means reschooling/retraining not using the whip or 'bossing them'. I fully admit I am not the greatest trainer but there are many ways to train and retrain a horse that don't involve us forcing them with physical violence.
		
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So tell me how I "school" my horse to not look nicely at me when I go up to the stable, step back like he should as i walk in and then suddenly turn for a bite? no warning or anything.  some days he does it, some he doesnt.


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## lastchancer (22 January 2013)

amandap said:



 By my logic it means reschooling/retraining not using the whip or 'bossing them'. I fully admit I am not the greatest trainer but there are many ways to train and retrain a horse that don't involve us forcing them with physical violence. 

Surely if a horse is going to shows on roads etc. it is trained slowly over time to be used to these things to reduce stress levels? Why would that involve a slap delivered at the right time?

I am into my version of NH which looks to the horse for guidance about management as well as training. Why work against the horse?
		
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I didn't say that it would get a slap for been nervous, what I was questioning was your suggestion to avoid situations that the horse finds challenging, how is a young/untrained horse to learn anything if you never take him out of his comfort zone?


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## fburton (22 January 2013)

Christsam said:



			So tell me how I "school" my horse to not look nicely at me when I go up to the stable, step back like he should as i walk in and then suddenly turn for a bite? no warning or anything.  some days he does it, some he doesnt.
		
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Why do you think he does this?


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## Wagtail (22 January 2013)

amandap said:



			One of two ways. Training to lead properly in a school or other safe low pressure environment to reduce risk of tanking. Lots of exercizes getting the horse to stop when I stop, turn with me and away from me and step back. I might well use a dually (there you go... controversy for you to jump on) for a more precise pressure and release and when the horse responds even in a tiny way and build up slowly. Lots of scratches the horse likes etc. when the horse responds in a way I wish. A normal head collar might well do for the safe training area but as I would need the horse to understand the dually nose pressure for more stressful leading I would use that.
I personally would use a dually (as opposed to a bit) and long 12ft lead rope for general leading (and control) until the horse had learned not to tank off through the lessons of understanding and responding to pressure through the release. I prefer to use the dually because I have used it and am confident how to use it without yanking but it still applies enough pressure to enable me to have a good chance of control (along with leverage of the long lead rope) if the horse did decide to tank. My belief is that the dually doesn't cause enough pressure to inflict pain unless it is yanked or the horse was tied to a solid object with the training rings. That's a big no no. It certainly applies discomfort which I admit could be painful if the horse tanked and took a very strong pull. I balance this discomfort with a need for safety and believe it is preferable to using a bit. Many disagree.

Or I would try my (cack) hand at clicker training the horse to stay with me, walk with me, stop with me etc. again in an environment less likely to provoke the tank until the leading is learned well and then progress to using it in more risky situations.

Some might prefer to use a rope head collar, horses for courses imo. 

What would you do?

ps. I forgot to mention I would also look at ways I could change the environment or routine to reduce the risk of the tank.
		
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Ok, but you can't get the horse to the arena without it tanking off. He will tank off in a dually or a rope head collar. This horse tanked off and dragged my 15 stone husband when he first arrived on the yard. Believe me, you could not stop this horse from tanking without using a stronger means than 'applying mild pressure'. Now, he leads perfectly on a long loose rope and doesn't routinely tank. But come the summer, if I am fetching him in, and he wants to get into the haylage in his stable, he will try it on again. Just the once, because he will need a reminder.  

So, what did I do? I don't hit for this type of behaviour. Until the habit is broken I use the lead rope threaded through the headcollar and over his nose or a rope halter. If he starts to tank he gets a short sharp check on the rope and immediate release. I have all the horses leading on a long rope with plenty of slack.

But my point is, you are presented with this horse. You cannot safely get him to the arena to train him because he would tank off. You cannot use only mild pressure because you will lose. You have to use a 'check and release'. My point is, this will be uncomfortable. Probably more uncomfortable than a slap. Yet NH trainers use this kind of training. Nothing wrong with it, but it exerts just as much, if not more discomfort than a slap to the chest or nose with the back of your hand. Obviously slapping a horse for tanking would be inappropriate and ineffective.


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## amandap (22 January 2013)

lastchancer said:



			I didn't say that it would get a slap for been nervous, what I was questioning was your suggestion to avoid situations that the horse finds challenging, how is a young/untrained horse to learn anything if you never take him out of his comfort zone?
		
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I misunderstood. Of course you have to stretch the comfort zone but perhaps going slowly (slower for some) and rewarding and gradually building up confidence that way with lots of repetitions and rewards.


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## fburton (22 January 2013)

fburton ('tis I) said:



			Of course, the issue of _why_ the horse is wanting to bite me in the first place needs to be addressed. Just mouthiness? Easy solution. Fear? Dislike? Dominance? That really should be a reason,
		
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Argh, typo.... I meant dominance shouldn't be the reason!


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## lastchancer (22 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			That is interesting. So what would you do if presented by a heavyweight cob that took every opportunity to tank off with you when you were leading it? We all know that if you simply applied a constant (non yanking) pressure, he would win the argument hands down. What would you do in that situation? As a livery yard owner, I am sometimes presented with horses to care for in full livery that have been allowed to get away with behaviour such as this. I have to retrain them so that I can safely care for them. How would you tackle it?
		
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Wagtail. I think a lot of people never consider that a yard owner has lots of horses to handle, and doesn't always have time to mess about with other peoples pig ignorant bovine half ton darlings  
I know how I'd handle the above big cob -Slip halter/war bridle, let it run itself into the pressure. Severe, and not something I particularly like to do. A constant dead pull would just give him something to lean against.

 I'm not sure why a lot of people feel dually halters and pressure halters are preferable to a bit, in my humble opinion they can be more severe than a bit, and very damaging  on the soft nose and poll tissues, they should only be used as a last resort, and with caution.


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## Littlelegs (22 January 2013)

Out of interest amandap what would you suggest or have done in the scenario I mentioned earlier? Basically a horse unconnected to me with no manners that's been stuck in for days, & the owner too afraid to turn it out? My course of action was a quick tug of the lr (on normal headcollar) then when it braced its neck lr over nose. No pressure from me but when it tried bracing its neck & towing me it put pressure on its own nose & ceased. And an out turned elbow when it majorly invaded my space. Obviously being stuck in for days didn't make it ideal to start doing groundwork with, it needed to go in the field asap. I'm not trying to pick holes I'm interested to know if there was another way I could have got the job done safely there & then without having to unfairly (from the horses pov) punish it for behavior the owner has allowed to become habit.


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## amandap (22 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			But my point is, you are presented with this horse. You cannot safely get him to the arena to train him because he would tank off. You cannot use only mild pressure because you will lose. You have to use a 'check and release'. My point is, this will be uncomfortable. Proably more uncomfortable than a slap. Ye NH trainers use this kind of training. Nothing wrong with it, but it exerts just as much, if not more discomfort than a slap to the chest or nose with the back of your hand.
		
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This is why I am not a YO or a trainer. lol  Yes the sharp yank is used and I have used it in the past. If I dealt with a variety of horses I might have to use it again, I just don't anymore.

It isn't just the level of pain or discomfort it's the action of the slap/hit and the emotion that usually (if not always) surrounds it. Anger, frustration are just two that usually accompany a slap. There is something very personal to me about slapping and hitting too... a foible perhaps but I see it as some sort of violation. I want training to be thought about and measured as well as respectful.

ps. Littlelegs, I don't know because I wasn't there. I might have had to resort to a yank on the dually though in a no other option I could see scenario.


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## Wagtail (22 January 2013)

lastchancer said:



			Wagtail. I think a lot of people never consider that a yard owner has lots of horses to handle, and doesn't always have time to mess about with other peoples pig ignorant bovine half ton darlings  
I know how I'd handle the above big cob -Slip halter/war bridle, let it run itself into the pressure. Severe, and not something I particularly like to do. A constant dead pull would just give him something to lean against.

 I'm not sure why a lot of people feel dually halters and pressure halters are preferable to a bit, in my humble opinion they can be more severe than a bit, and very damaging  on the soft nose and poll tissues, they should only be used as a last resort, and with caution.
		
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Exactly. I don't have time to train other people's horses by spending hours with them in the arena. They have to learn to be safely handled in a very short space of time. However, having said that, I don't think my methods are in the least bit severe. I simply match the pressure they are offering me. Sometimes you have to make a quick sharp check so that the horse cannot set itself against you. I agree that duallys and rope halters can be just as severe as leading a horse in a snaffle. The point is, you have to use what is effective for that particular animal. I find the lead rope over the nose to be the most effective and convenient (emergency) form of restraint. My aim is to have all horses leading nicely by my side on a loose rope. And thankfully they all do.


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## Wagtail (22 January 2013)

amandap said:



			This is why I am not a YO or a trainer. lol  Yes the sharp yank is used and I have used it in the past. If I dealt with a variety of horses I might have to use it again, I just don't anymore.

It isn't just the level of pain or discomfort it's the action of the slap/hit and the emotion that usually (if not always) surrounds it. Anger, frustration are just two that usually accompany a slap. There is something very personal to me about slapping and hitting too... a foible perhaps but I see it as some sort of violation. I want training to be thought about and measured as well as respectful.

ps. Littlelegs, I don't know because I wasn't there. I might have had to resort to a yank on the dually though in a no other option I could see scenario.
		
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I never hit a horse in anger or with any strong emotion, ever. I agree, that to do that would be wrong. Everything I do with horses is calculated and ordered, and controlled. To go back to the foal biting. He is a lovely boy, and he just wanted to play. I discussed the approach we would take with him, with his owner, so that we were both 'on the same page'. The first approach was to just push his nose away. However many times he tried to nip, just gently push it away. It seemed to work. 'Great' we thought. Then a few weeks passed and suddenly he started all over again. This time, it was obvious that he viewed us pushing his nose away as a game as he got worse. We regrouped. His owner wanted to try the playing with his nose and lips approach. We did this consistently over the next two weeks, but he just got more sneaky and would launch in with a bite and get away before we could fiddle with his nose. Another game. So eventually we realised we would have to up the pressure with blocks and with uwards slaps to the nose. I don't know how often his owner had to do this. But for me, it was twice. He no longer bites me. Now, if he looks as though he may, a flicking gesture with my hand will send him away. No contact needed.


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## Wagtail (22 January 2013)

Just to add. If I just had my two horses to deal with, I would not need to yank or to slap. They are trained to walk on a loose rope, in a normal headcollar. They do not barge, or bite or kick or tank. If I only had to deal with these two horses, I would say that I don't hit horses, and my yanking days are over. 

I also think that many of the anti hitting camp are arguing against practices that I am also against. They use terms such as violence, anger, and aggression. These terms do not feature in my dealings with horses. On the contrary, I am very calm and low energy. Any 'hitting' is rare, and always appropriate to the situation.


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## lastchancer (22 January 2013)

I think perhaps people on this thread have a lot more in common than we think, there's been talk about acting out in anger/losing ones temper and the effect that can have on a horse. No one wants to hit horses (except for that weirdo on the fb thread) nor does anyone want to haul them about on halters.
Perhaps a better question would have been Do You Use Anger Against Your Horse? And the answer to that would hopefully be no. After all, how can we expect to control our horse if we cannot control ourselves?


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## lastchancer (22 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			Exactly. I don't have time to train other people's horses by spending hours with them in the arena. They have to learn to be safely handled in a very short space of time. However, having said that, I don't think my methods are in the least bit severe. I simply match the pressure they are offering me. Sometimes you have to make a quick sharp check so that the horse cannot set itself against you. I agree that duallys and rope halters can be just as severe as leading a horse in a snaffle. The point is, you have to use what is effective for that particular animal. I find the lead rope over the nose to be the most effective and convenient (emergency) form of restraint. My aim is to have all horses leading nicely by my side on a loose rope. And thankfully they all do.
		
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I agree,that short sharp lesson has to be better than strugging on with it for weeks, and probably saves someone from getting flattened.


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## fburton (22 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			I also think that many of the anti hitting camp are arguing against practices that I am also against. They use terms such as violence, anger, and aggression. These terms do not feature in my dealings with horses. On the contrary, I am very calm and low energy. Any 'hitting' is rare, and always appropriate to the situation.
		
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Fantastic! 

But aren't we _all_ in the anti-hitting camp??

There are those who don't like hitting, but do so recognizing it to be a necessary measure on occasion. There are those who don't like hitting and don't. And maybe there are a few who truly don't see it as a potential problem. Or is that an unfair distinction?


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## Victoria25 (22 January 2013)

A long time ago my mare (then 3 years old) took a chunk out of my shoulder whilst I had my back to her whilst talking to someone &#8211; we&#8217;d not had her long &#8211; she got an instant belt across the chops &#8230; she&#8217;s 11 now and never once bit/nipped anyone since - I would never tolerate a naughty/dangerous animal no matter what size! Nowadays she only needs me to oi her !

I also don&#8217;t think a smack would really hurt a horse &#8230; I also carry a schooling whip when riding but not to &#8216;hit them with&#8217; just as a long extended arm aid &#8211; a tickle on her bum is usually all that&#8217;s needed


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## fburton (22 January 2013)

Sometimes one has to think laterally... or intuitively. Years ago I was asked to help a stud owner with covering mares because one of the stallions had become very hard to handle, and had in fact tanked and gotten away from handler once, fortunately without bad consequence. The stallion was so darn strong and had only one thing in mind when it came to covering. (That's _all_ of them, right?!) Ideally, I would have liked to have had time to work with the stallion, getting him paying attention to me, learning to lead better, with lighter aids - obvious stuff like that, all of which adds up to "good manners". Here, however, it was one of those cases where you have to do what you can in the situation presented to you. In an attempt to maintain some kind of control, a pretty severe and technically incorrect bit was being used. There was also a fair amount of tugging and reprimanding - shouting and slaps on the chest with a crop - going on, most of which was ignored in the heat of the moment. The reprimands _could_ have been escalated to something more like beatings, but I am glad to say that didn't happen, as the results might have been disastrous. Anyway, in this rather fraught state of affairs, I was invited to be a second stallion man so there were actually two of us leading the stallion to the mare - highly unconventional. It sort of worked, and we got the serving done relatively safely in this way, although it was clear that the process relied rather precariously on brute force. Naturally, I immediately started to think how the situation could be improved.

Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what we did, changing only the way the stallion was handled? It was something I started to put into effect and over the following few coverings resulted in a progressive improvement in the stallion's manageability. Nothing magical - in fact, you will probably think "Oh, is that all?"; but it is a principle that can be applied in other, comparable situations. It wasn't anything particularly visible either, although the improvement in behaviour was. Final clue: it didn't have anything to do with 'respect'.


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## lastchancer (22 January 2013)

fburton said:



			Sometimes one has to think laterally... or intuitively. Years ago I was asked to help a stud owner with covering mares because one of the stallions had become very hard to handle, and had in fact tanked and gotten away from handler once, fortunately without bad consequence. The stallion was so darn strong and had only one thing in mind when it came to covering. (That's _all_ of them, right?!) Ideally, I would have liked to have had time to work with the stallion, getting him paying attention to me, learning to lead better, with lighter aids - obvious stuff like that, all of which adds up to "good manners". Here, however, it was one of those cases where you have to do what you can in the situation presented to you. In an attempt to maintain some kind of control, a pretty severe and technically incorrect bit was being used. There was also a fair amount of tugging and reprimanding - shouting and slaps on the chest with a crop - going on, most of which was ignored in the heat of the moment. The reprimands _could_ have been escalated to something more like beatings, but I am glad to say that didn't happen, as the results might have been disastrous. Anyway, in this rather fraught state of affairs, I was invited to be a second stallion man so there were actually two of us leading the stallion to the mare - highly unconventional. It sort of worked, and we got the serving done relatively safely in this way, although it was clear that the process relied rather precariously on brute force. Naturally, I immediately started to think how the situation could be improved.

Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what we did, changing only the way the stallion was handled? It was something I started to put into effect and over the following few coverings resulted in a progressive improvement in the stallion's manageability. Nothing magical - in fact, you will probably think "Oh, is that all?"; but it is a principle that can be applied in other, comparable situations. It wasn't anything particularly visible either, although the improvement in behaviour was. Final clue: it didn't have anything to do with 'respect'.
		
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Um, led the mare to the stallion, instead of vise versa?


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## Brightbay (22 January 2013)

FBurton - I think my first thought would be to have the mare bred in a different location where possible, and to completely disrupt all the "cues" that indicating to the stallion that he was being led towards an in season mare (including the tack used, the route taken, etc.).

I appreciate that that's not always easy - but if a situation is getting dangerous and an environmental change would help, it would be worth a bit of extra effort and expense to help.


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## Wagtail (22 January 2013)

fburton said:



			Fantastic! 

But aren't we _all_ in the anti-hitting camp??

There are those who don't like hitting, but do so recognizing it to be a necessary measure on occasion. There are those who don't like hitting and don't. And maybe there are a few who truly don't see it as a potential problem. Or is that an unfair distinction?
		
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I agree. I don't like hitting, but it has it's place on occasion, so long as it is not hard, repeated, ill timed or inappropriate. I DO think that hitting can cause problems if inappropriate, disproportional, or uncontrolled. Hitting should never be in anger, or when a horse is fearful, or does not understand what is expected of it. I also do not believe that whips or spurs should be used as punishment.


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## amandap (22 January 2013)

fburton said:



			Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what we did, changing only the way the stallion was handled? It was something I started to put into effect and over the following few coverings resulted in a progressive improvement in the stallion's manageability. Nothing magical - in fact, you will probably think "Oh, is that all?"; but it is a principle that can be applied in other, comparable situations. It wasn't anything particularly visible either, although the improvement in behaviour was. Final clue: it didn't have anything to do with 'respect'.
		
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I'll have a guess from your story detail. Change the bit or adjust it so it fitted correctly?


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## fburton (22 January 2013)

lastchancer said:



			Um, led the mare to the stallion, instead of vise versa?
		
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Interesting suggestion, but that wasn't it. TBH, I'm not sure how well the stallion would have stood waiting for the mare to be brought up and 're-positioned' - on two legs, probably!


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## fburton (22 January 2013)

Brightbay said:



			FBurton - I think my first thought would be to have the mare bred in a different location where possible, and to completely disrupt all the "cues" that indicating to the stallion that he was being led towards an in season mare (including the tack used, the route taken, etc.).

I appreciate that that's not always easy - but if a situation is getting dangerous and an environmental change would help, it would be worth a bit of extra effort and expense to help.
		
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Another good suggestion, and the first thing I wondered about. As it happened, the set-up and routine were pretty fixed.


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## fburton (22 January 2013)

amandap said:



			I'll have a guess from your story detail. Change the bit or adjust it so it fitted correctly?
		
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Nope, but you are the closest so far.


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## Wagtail (22 January 2013)

Use a headcollar instead?


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## amandap (22 January 2013)

fburton said:



			Nope, but you are the closest so far.
		
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Take it out completely. lol Use a head collar? I'm obsessed with the bit angle now.


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## fburton (22 January 2013)

You are both getting warm! However, nothing in the way of tack or environment was changed.


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## windand rain (22 January 2013)

fburton said:



			You are both getting warm! However, nothing in the way of tack or environment was changed.
		
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cLicker training or some sort of distraction therapy


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## Wagtail (22 January 2013)

fburton said:



			You are both getting warm! However, nothing in the way of tack or environment was changed.
		
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I find with a rearing excitable horse, the best way is to use a long line and let them have their heads. Not try to use any force against them, just pressure and immediate release. Having said that though, I have never handled an excitable stallion.

The stud owner at our local stud was brilliant with the huge 17 hh rearing stallion. Yes, he was in a chiffney, but there was no upping of the energy and fighting against her. He was like a thing possessed, but she was so calm and let him have plently of line. Keeping a tight hold on such horses is counter productive. Key is low energy and calmness.


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## amandap (22 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			I find with a rearing excitable horse, the best way is to use a long line and let them have their heads. Not try to use any force against them, just pressure and immediate release. Having said that though, I have never handled an excitable stallion.
		
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Yes, that was my next thought and having no experience of planned and controlled covering, my follow on thought is just let him go for it loose. Probably too risky though.


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## fburton (22 January 2013)

windand rain said:



			cLicker training or some sort of distraction therapy
		
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I think I would have been laughed into the next county if I had suggested clicker! (Not that I am against it at all.) No, not that.


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## windand rain (22 January 2013)

Maybe just a longer lead and the rope over his nose


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## amandap (22 January 2013)

fburton said:



			However, nothing in the way of tack or environment was changed.
		
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What about the humans? If they aren't considered part of the environment a different handler? A female handler? Getting desperate now. lol My last thought is (  ) leading training away from the covering environment and then in it without mares there? rofl.
Oh and feed him before covering?


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## fburton (22 January 2013)

Amandap - ah, so close. Wagtail - you are pretty much there.

Yes, I let the stallion have his head and gently encouraged the other handler to do so too. Instead of using ever more force in an attempt to control a very strong, single-minded animal, he was given more freedom instead. Not letting go of him completely - I think that would have been too risky - but actively bringing him towards his goal rather than attempting to hold him back. Paradoxically, this resulted in him pulling less and going forward more slowly, sensibly and safely. Instead of the handlers thwarting his wishes, there was a shift, over the course of a couple of coverings, towards being facilitators. By apparently relinquishing some control, we actually gained some. I think the horse's attitude changed a bit too, when he learned to behave in a way that make what he wanted easier to achieve, with less conflict. Of course, this seems so obvious now, but you'd be surprised how common it is for thwarting to predominate over facilitating in this scenario.

Once again, less is more!

And this can be applied in other situations where a horse is so highly motivated to get somewhere that he or she will fight you to achieve it. Sometimes the answer is not to fight. This doesn't mean letting go of the rope, but a loosening is something worth trying, on and off, in order to get away from the constant struggle to maintain control. I think it may be fear of losing control that often discourages a more relaxed, give-and-take, approach. As you say, it helps to be calm.


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## Brightbay (22 January 2013)

I think I would have been laughed into the next county if I had suggested clicker! (Not that I am against it at all.) No, not that.
		
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Whilst I would normally suggest this, I think there's an issue of salience of reinforcers when food is up against a flirty mare 

I like the solution.  I've had similar experiences with learning not to hang on an eager horse's mouth/head when riding


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## LD&S (22 January 2013)

fburton said:



			Amandap - ah, so close. Wagtail - you are pretty much there.

Yes, I let the stallion have his head and gently encouraged the other handler to do so too. Instead of using ever more force in an attempt to control a very strong, single-minded animal, he was given more freedom instead. Not letting go of him completely - I think that would have been too risky - but actively bringing him towards his goal rather than attempting to hold him back. Paradoxically, this resulted in him pulling less and going forward more slowly, sensibly and safely. Instead of the handlers thwarting his wishes, there was a shift, over the course of a couple of coverings, towards being facilitators. By apparently relinquishing some control, we actually gained some. I think the horse's attitude changed a bit too, when he learned to behave in a way that make what he wanted easier to achieve, with less conflict. Of course, this seems so obvious now, but you'd be surprised how common it is for thwarting to predominate over facilitating in this scenario.

Once again, less is more!

And this can be applied in other situations where a horse is so highly motivated to get somewhere that he or she will fight you to achieve it. Sometimes the answer is not to fight. This doesn't mean letting go of the rope, but a loosening is something worth trying, on and off, in order to get away from the constant struggle to maintain control. I think it may be fear of losing control that often discourages a more relaxed, give-and-take, approach. As you say, it helps to be calm.
		
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I suppose in the same way that a horse on a very short l/r gets ansty but generally if they are allowed more rope and it's slack they have the chance to respond to the more subtle cues given.

And no I don't smack or slap any of my three horses, maybe it's just luck but I have no need, they are very well behaved and despite being with me for a while have managed against the odds to retain their manners.


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## amandap (22 January 2013)

fburton said:



			Amandap - ah, so close. Wagtail - you are pretty much there.

Yes, I let the stallion have his head and gently encouraged the other handler to do so too. Instead of using ever more force in an attempt to control a very strong, single-minded animal, he was given more freedom instead. Not letting go of him completely - I think that would have been too risky - but actively bringing him towards his goal rather than attempting to hold him back. Paradoxically, this resulted in him pulling less and going forward more slowly, sensibly and safely. Instead of the handlers thwarting his wishes, there was a shift, over the course of a couple of coverings, towards being facilitators. By apparently relinquishing some control, we actually gained some. I think the horse's attitude changed a bit too, when he learned to behave in a way that make what he wanted easier to achieve, with less conflict. Of course, this seems so obvious now, but you'd be surprised how common it is for thwarting to predominate over facilitating in this scenario.

Once again, less is more!

And this can be applied in other situations where a horse is so highly motivated to get somewhere that he or she will fight you to achieve it. Sometimes the answer is not to fight. This doesn't mean letting go of the rope, but a loosening is something worth trying, on and off, in order to get away from the constant struggle to maintain control. I think it may be fear of losing control that often discourages a more relaxed, give-and-take, approach. As you say, it helps to be calm.
		
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Ah yes, the long rope and letting the horse (and you) have space to move was one of my first and probably the most enduring lesson.


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## amandap (22 January 2013)

Brightbay said:



			Whilst I would normally suggest this, I think there's an issue of salience of reinforcers when food is up against a flirty mare 

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Lol! 

One of my last guesses was food related, I just thought... ah males... sex and stomach.


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## fburton (22 January 2013)

Brightbay said:



			Whilst I would normally suggest this, I think there's an issue of salience of reinforcers when food is up against a flirty mare 

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Quite!  This fact actually offers a great opportunity to train good manners in breeding stallions, if one contrives for good behaviour to be rewarded thusly. On the other hand, it also offers a great opportunity for bad behaviour to be rewarded and trained inadvertently.


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## tallyho! (22 January 2013)

siennamum said:



			you've been reading the wrong riding books I think.....
		
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What?! How rude!!! 

You mean whips were ACTUALLY for horses and not naughty little boys?


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## Gloi (22 January 2013)

fburton said:



			And this can be applied in other situations where a horse is so highly motivated to get somewhere that he or she will fight you to achieve it. Sometimes the answer is not to fight. This doesn't mean letting go of the rope, but a loosening is something worth trying, on and off, in order to get away from the constant struggle to maintain control. I think it may be fear of losing control that often discourages a more relaxed, give-and-take, approach. As you say, it helps to be calm.
		
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I used to be on a yard where there was a Shire stallion at stud (nearly 19 hands of him). When he was taken out for covering mares he just went for it and nobody could have held him. The way he was dealt with was to blindfold him in the stable before he was led out. Then when he was in position whip the blindfold off (it was designed so you could do that easily) and then stand back!
There was a second Shire stallion on the yard and he was good as gold.


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## cptrayes (22 January 2013)

fburton said:



			Sometimes one has to think laterally... or intuitively. Years ago I was asked to help a stud owner with covering mares because one of the stallions had become very hard to handle, and had in fact tanked and gotten away from handler once, fortunately without bad consequence. The stallion was so darn strong and had only one thing in mind when it came to covering. (That's _all_ of them, right?!) Ideally, I would have liked to have had time to work with the stallion, getting him paying attention to me, learning to lead better, with lighter aids - obvious stuff like that, all of which adds up to "good manners". Here, however, it was one of those cases where you have to do what you can in the situation presented to you. In an attempt to maintain some kind of control, a pretty severe and technically incorrect bit was being used. There was also a fair amount of tugging and reprimanding - shouting and slaps on the chest with a crop - going on, most of which was ignored in the heat of the moment. The reprimands _could_ have been escalated to something more like beatings, but I am glad to say that didn't happen, as the results might have been disastrous. Anyway, in this rather fraught state of affairs, I was invited to be a second stallion man so there were actually two of us leading the stallion to the mare - highly unconventional. It sort of worked, and we got the serving done relatively safely in this way, although it was clear that the process relied rather precariously on brute force. Naturally, I immediately started to think how the situation could be improved.

Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what we did, changing only the way the stallion was handled? It was something I started to put into effect and over the following few coverings resulted in a progressive improvement in the stallion's manageability. Nothing magical - in fact, you will probably think "Oh, is that all?"; but it is a principle that can be applied in other, comparable situations. It wasn't anything particularly visible either, although the improvement in behaviour was. Final clue: it didn't have anything to do with 'respect'.
		
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I would never have tried to hold the horse described. I don't ever try to hold any horse these days, they are far too strong for anyone if they put their mind to it. I would have put a much longer lead rope on him, allowed him to "get away from me" if he insisted and used the leverage that I then had with the rope to step sideways and get an angle where I could pull him, even if only partly,  off his single-minded path to the mare. Finding themselves pointing away from the direction that they meant to be going in usually brings them temporarily back to their senses.

Of course in the case you are describing, it would never have got that far, because this lad, as you later unveil, gave up pulling when the handler gave him nothing to pull against. 

I have to say also that I have never handled a breeding stallion and accept that this method may not be succesful with a set of raging hormones ready to fight another stalliong to the death for his mare.


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## tallyho! (22 January 2013)

Why don't they bring the mare to the stallion and not the other way around?


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## Kallibear (22 January 2013)

Tallyho: you can bring the mare closer so it's less distance to walk the stallion but you still need to lead him some distance, unless you just owner his door antler him loose They need to cover somewhere with good footing too so he'll need to be lead to the covering barn. Also if he does AI he'll need to be lead to the dummy. Many stallion do ONLY AI and find the dummy also as exciting as a real mare!


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## lastchancer (22 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Many stallion do ONLY AI and find the dummy also as exciting as a real mare!
		
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That's a bit sad  
I'm a big believer in turning 'em out to get on with it, I understand thats not always practical though.


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## Kallibear (22 January 2013)

Guessing you have native breeds lastchancer? There's no way you'd put a warmbloods or TB stallion out with mares.  Only ever controlled inhand or by AI.


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## amandap (22 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Guessing you have native breeds lastchancer? There's no way you'd put a warmbloods or TB stallion out with mares.  Only ever controlled inhand or by AI.
		
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I'm interested why? Is it their value and or risk of injury? 
Surely they don't have a different courting and covering behaviour to other horses, do they?


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## Kallibear (22 January 2013)

Yes, firstly they're far too valuable to risk injury. They're also much more highly strung and massively more athletic so far more like to injury themselves. They also (sadly) usually live solitary lives so haven't for a club how to socialise with other horses, again making them more likely to hurt themselves.

It's very rare to see stallion running with mares in anything but low value stock.


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## amandap (22 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Yes, firstly they're far too valuable to risk injury. They're also much more highly strung and massively more athletic so far more like to injury themselves. They also (sadly) usually live solitary lives so haven't for a club how to socialise with other horses, again making them more likely to hurt themselves.

It's very rare to see stallion running with mares in anything but low value stock.
		
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Thanks. I realized after I had posted that a solitary lifestyle wasn't going to equip the stallions for herd/free breeding, I suppose they would have little idea about the social niceties in courtship.


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## Dry Rot (22 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Yes, firstly they're far too valuable to risk injury. They're also much more highly strung and massively more athletic so far more like to injury themselves. They also (sadly) usually live solitary lives so haven't for a club how to socialise with other horses, again making them more likely to hurt themselves.

It's very rare to see stallion running with mares in anything but low value stock.

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Now you've hurt my feelings, not to mention the feelings of my Highland stallion!


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## windand rain (23 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Yes, firstly they're far too valuable to risk injury. They're also much more highly strung and massively more athletic so far more like to injury themselves. They also (sadly) usually live solitary lives so haven't for a club how to socialise with other horses, again making them more likely to hurt themselves.

It's very rare to see stallion running with mares in anything but low value stock.
		
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Sounds like the perfect reason for not keeping a horse entire in my view it is horrible to think of the solitary and confined lives these poor horses have. As to the not running out unless low value stock I would say that was a little condescending and rude to many wonderful stallions


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## tallyho! (23 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Tallyho: you can bring the mare closer so it's less distance to walk the stallion but you still need to lead him some distance, unless you just owner his door antler him loose They need to cover somewhere with good footing too so he'll need to be lead to the covering barn. Also if he does AI he'll need to be lead to the dummy. Many stallion do ONLY AI and find the dummy also as exciting as a real mare!
		
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Oh right well that seems silly to me. The stud I know does it very naturally and theres never any stress. Mare is put near to him for a few days then they go in together and either get on with it there and then or a bit later on if she needs chatting up.

Never experienced AI. I have seen it done the other way around but much prefer the above. It's so much more peaceful.


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## eahotson (23 January 2013)

The Highland I had, he was bred on a yard where the stallion ran with the herd.The owner said it was fascinating to watch and if any of the foals went missing it was often Dad not Mum that went searching.


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## cornbrodolly (23 January 2013)

Have to reply to KALIBEAR re the stallion thing
There is no reason why any breed of stallion cant either live with his herd or at least cover without being led.A horse is a horse! The reason stallions become unhandeable is that they havent been with mares and isolation has soured their temperaments.
 We had 2 warmblood stallions , the second of which lived with his mares, and covered visiting mares in a v large pen. I consider him to be 'valuable' , but thats never an excuse for keeping stallions isolated. Of course, once a stallions temperament is soured/spoilt, then I know theres a huge problem and you may never thoroughly rehabilitate them.
Our first stallion , we owned from a foal, and no one ever thought he was entire, when out riding,hunting,shows etc. He lived with mum till 10 months old, then with youngsters, and then the ridden geldings. Aged 4 we had to field him on his own with cattle as he started to bite the geldingd, but next to the  mares etc where he could see them. He covered inhand,very kind to his mares and no tanking/pulling etc. 


Further to much earlier post where I exampled biting horses and said we 'taught' the owner to smack to save herself being bitten, I would also say our stallions  were handled without ever needing reprimands, simply because we a) had them from a young age and b) they led as 'normal' life as possible. For schooling we would usually carry a whip , but I was 'trained' by my very abused horse[ 20 odd yrs ago] not to carry a stick out hacking/huntingetc , so apart from dressage schooling[ not really my thing anyway!]I dont carry a stick and feel if I needed to reprimand my own horses on a regular basis I would be doing something not quite right for them.


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## fburton (23 January 2013)

tallyho! said:



			Why don't they bring the mare to the stallion and not the other way around?
		
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Good points have already been made by others. With 'in hand' covering, it is generally more practical to bring the stallion to the mare. If the mare is booted and/or hobbled, fairly standard in TB breeding, she will be less moveable. This wasn't the case in the example I gave above. Even unrestrained, however, the mare will be less inclined to be moved when the stallion is nearby because her natural tendency will be to stand still and adopt a squatting posture, expecting the stallion to come to her. Also, as I suggested in an earlier post, it is easier to lead the stallion towards the mare than to keep him standing in one place, because that is _his_ natural tendency. The problem in the case I described was the lack of control and restraint, which was improved by not trying so hard to control and restrain. Hope that answers your question.


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## fburton (23 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Guessing you have native breeds lastchancer? There's no way you'd put a warmbloods or TB stallion out with mares.  Only ever controlled inhand or by AI.
		
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You're right, of course, though there are exceptions to every rule. I knew a WB (Holsteiner) stallion Literat in Germany that used to run with WB mares. He had a very nice temperament and was highly fertile (which was one of the reasons he got 'bookings').


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## lastchancer (23 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			It's very rare to see stallion running with mares in anything but low value stock.
		
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Nonsense


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## fburton (23 January 2013)

To return to the main subject of the thread...



cornbrodolly said:



			I dont carry a stick and feel if I needed to reprimand my own horses on a regular basis I would be doing something not quite right for them.
		
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That is my feeling too. Having to reprimand regularly is a state of affairs I would not be happy with, speaking personally. I'd want to change it, if I could.


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## Cortez (23 January 2013)

I used to run my Trakhener stallions (NOT low value!) with their mares. I had very chilled and happy boys.


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## cptrayes (23 January 2013)

Cortez said:



			I used to run my Trakhener stallions (NOT low value!) with their mares. I had very chilled and happy boys.
		
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Numpty question from a non-breeder - I assume that if you do this (and I wish more places would) then you put one stallion with his mares and keep a big distance between stallions if you have more than one?

The way we are going with breeding, (except TBs where it has to be natural cover I think) anyone would think the horse can't reproduce without human help


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## siennamum (23 January 2013)

I was at a sport horse stud this Summer where their 2 stallions each have a herd, they run with their mares & babies. The 2 herds were kept a couple of fields apart.
2 & 3 year olds were all put in big herds seperately, it's a lovely set up. All WB's being sold internationally to go eventing/SJ.


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## amandap (23 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			The way we are going with breeding, (except TBs where it has to be natural cover I think) anyone would think the horse can't reproduce without human help 

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Ha ha, yes it seems that way to an outsider like me. It does seem the more money involved the more we want (have??) to control breeding and horses management in general. The more they are worth the more they are 'protected'. Seems such a shame to me tbh but I suppose I understand the reasons.
My feeling is like the example fburton gave... let go of that iron grip of control a bit and the horses will almost thank you for it and behave in a calmer way.

So many of the ways we protect them go against horse behaviour and even physiology it seems to me.


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## amandap (23 January 2013)

siennamum said:



			I was at a sport horse stud this Summer where their 2 stallions each have a herd, they run with their mares & babies. The 2 herds were kept a couple of fields apart.
2 & 3 year olds were all put in big herds seperately, it's a lovely set up. All WB's being sold internationally to go eventing/SJ.
		
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I bet it was. We all talk about how important the foundation of training is but what about the foundation of being a horse, physically, mentally and socially?


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## cptrayes (23 January 2013)

amandap said:



			Ha ha, yes it seems that way to an outsider like me. It does seem the more money involved the more we want (have??) to control breeding and horses management in general. The more they are worth the more they are 'protected'. Seems such a shame to me tbh but I suppose I understand the reasons.
My feeling is like the example fburton gave... let go of that iron grip of control a bit and the horses will almost thank you for it and behave in a calmer way.

So many of the ways we protect them go against horse behaviour and even physiology it seems to me.
		
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Completely agree with you. I own what is probably a barn-reared dressage horse, bred in Germany with the intention of being worth a lot of money, so probably never allowed out much as a foal/youngster. It looks like he's paid for it with his feet, which have failed to develop to match his 17 hand frame and still looked like a two year olds at 6. We are getting there slowly, but it's a long job to improve them into proper adult feet.  If he had stayed shod, they never would have made it and he'd still be walking on tin cans.


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## tallyho! (23 January 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Yes, firstly they're far too valuable to risk injury. They're also much more highly strung and massively more athletic so far more like to injury themselves. They also (sadly) usually live solitary lives so haven't for a club how to socialise with other horses, again making them more likely to hurt themselves.

It's very rare to see stallion running with mares in anything but low value stock.
		
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Are PREs considered low value? I don't know but to me, it's people that cause the issues in breeding high value stock.

If it was left natural, far less would go wrong. The might be a bite mark here and there but they do heal.


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## tallyho! (23 January 2013)

siennamum said:



			I was at a sport horse stud this Summer where their 2 stallions each have a herd, they run with their mares & babies. The 2 herds were kept a couple of fields apart.
2 & 3 year olds were all put in big herds seperately, it's a lovely set up. All WB's being sold internationally to go eventing/SJ.
		
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This is what I have seen and its really very peaceful and all seem content. Even when new stallions are introduced for following season (once old stallion moved on to new mares) after the initial "this is my bit, that's your bit"... All is fine and the other stallions foals are well looked after and played with by new stally.

I am sure some stallions can be grumpy but you can't be grumpy for too long after you're tired out from so much sex.


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## Amaranta (23 January 2013)

lastchancer said:



			Nonsense
		
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Have to agree, I know someone who runs her PRE stally with his mares AND his youngstock, he is most definitely NOT low value stock.


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## Amaranta (23 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Completely agree with you. I own what is probably a barn-reared dressage horse, bred in Germany with the intention of being worth a lot of money, so probably never allowed out much as a foal/youngster. It looks like he's paid for it with his feet, which have failed to develop to match his 17 hand frame and still looked like a two year olds at 6. We are getting there slowly, but it's a long job to improve them into proper adult feet.  If he had stayed shod, they never would have made it and he'd still be walking on tin cans.
		
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That used to be a common problem with warmbloods, my old vet was convinced it was a major reason for the increase in cases of navicular disease back in the eighties.


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## fburton (23 January 2013)

It's always good to hear of studs allowing stallions to run with mares. But how common is it really outside the world of native ponies?


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## siennamum (23 January 2013)

fburton said:



			It's always good to hear of studs allowing stallions to run with mares. But how common is it really outside the world of native ponies?
		
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The stud I was at was a warmblood stud. I am of a mind tho that stallions kept in work and used for AI woudl also have a pretty ok life, not much different to other competition horses, mares are after all also entire.

The issue seems to be where the horse may not have a job apart from covering and is kept in pretty isolated conditions the rest of the time. I suspect that a horse like Saddlers Wells has a pretty decent life so even then the horse isn't exactly suffering imo.


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## tallyho! (23 January 2013)

fburton said:



			It's always good to hear of studs allowing stallions to run with mares. But how common is it really outside the world of native ponies?
		
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Well, myself, I can only speak for the PRE studs that I know of in this country.

Annd, having said the above, I don't know how similar set-ups for other breeds wouldn't work unless the breeders just didn't like the idea... set-up for AI etc... 

Most stallys and mares are there to do one job... breed. Can understand where stricter set up is required for competing stally's needing to be kept pristine. I don't know enough outside the world I know to really comment though.


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## lastchancer (23 January 2013)

fburton said:



			It's always good to hear of studs allowing stallions to run with mares. But how common is it really outside the world of native ponies?
		
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Perhaps not as common as it should be, interesting comments made about the connection between coddled horses and navicular.


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## Cortez (23 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Numpty question from a non-breeder - I assume that if you do this (and I wish more places would) then you put one stallion with his mares and keep a big distance between stallions if you have more than one?

The way we are going with breeding, (except TBs where it has to be natural cover I think) anyone would think the horse can't reproduce without human help 

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Yes, each stallion had his own paddock, double fenced but they could all see each other and any new or visiting mares that came in, and mares were put in with whichever stallion they were due to be covered by and left all together until the outside mares went home; our own mares lived in with their "husbands" full time. And these were competing stallions too, they happily went off to competitions and came straight back to their paddocks full of vim and vigour. Did it this way for around 13 years and had one of the highest conception rates in the entire breed society. And very happy horses


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## Goldenstar (23 January 2013)

Cortez said:



			Yes, each stallion had his own paddock, double fenced but they could all see each other and any new or visiting mares that came in, and mares were put in with whichever stallion they were due to be covered by and left all together until the outside mares went home; our own mares lived in with their "husbands" full time. And these were competing stallions too, they happily went off to competitions and came straight back to their paddocks full of vim and vigour. Did it this way for around 13 years and had one of the highest conception rates in the entire breed society. And very happy horses 

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Sounds lovely .
The first mare I tried to breed from ( sadly she never took.) went to a Clydesdale / Anglo arab stallion he ran with the mares as we drove down the lane to farm you could see him standing in a hillock watching his next lady arrive he was a lovely laid back chap.


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## Dry Rot (23 January 2013)

First of all, the OP's question. No, I don't smack my ponies as there is no need for it. I was outraged when the judge mounted my Highland stallion at a show and promptly gave him a couple of heavy whacks with his crop. What for? The fact that the man is also a college lecturer made it all the more extraordinary to me.

Having said that, I can't say I would never smack a horse -- or dog. If I did, it would be like the plumber called in to sort a housewife's boiler. The plumber looks at the boiler for a couple of minutes, then hits it with his hammer. The boiler immediately starts working again.  "That will be £50, ma'am".  The housewife is outraged. "How can you possibly justify that for two minutes work?", she asks. "Well", replies the plumber, "I only charged 50p for the tap with the hammer. I charged you £49.50 for my forty years experience and knowing where to hit the boiler and how hard". 

When I hit something, it is a cold calculated action aimed at sorting a specific problem. I'd be concentrating on precise timing and the force of the blow would be measured to convince the animal that it was it's own actions that caused the shock (not pain) and not me! I am always the good guy in the eyes of the animal I am training and I try to keep it that way.

I think Highland stallions are easily handled because it used to be common practice to "travel" them so that crofters could get their mares served without the expense of owning their own stallions. A difficult stallion would be no use for this. Also, breeders have always been prepared to put up with a difficult riding horse if it will produce more speed or jump a higher fence.

My stallion runs with his mares 24/7. He is taken out and smartened up for a show, attends the show (when everyone thinks he is a gelding!), then put back with his mares again when we get home. I used to take him away from foaling mares but now leave him with them and, as another poster has said, he is very attentive of the foals. It is lovely to see them all interacting as a herd and doing what horses should do. I am convinced that foals started this way make for easier handling later in life, too.


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## cptrayes (23 January 2013)

Cortez said:



			had one of the highest conception rates in the entire breed society.
		
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Well I wonder why that would be 

I wonder which mare would be more likely to catch, the one with her legs tied together or the one who's been courted until she wants to stand for the stallion?


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## fburton (24 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I wonder which mare would be more likely to catch, the one with her legs tied together or the one who's been courted until she wants to stand for the stallion?
		
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Exactly! It is common practice to minimize the amount of time spent teasing to that needed to check whether the mare is going to stand for the stallion or not, seemingly disregarding its role in promoting fertility and conception rates. If anything modern ultrasound technology has made teasing less likely to be done in anything more than an extremely cursory way, because it reduces the need to verify standing oestrus. Not saying that accurate determination of imminent ovulation via scanning doesn't also improve conception rates, of course - but surely there can be no harm in allowing some time for courtship, even if the extended interactions that are afforded by pasture breeding are not possible?


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## fburton (24 January 2013)

From another thread...



cptrayes said:



			But hitting them with whips is completely "normal", so it would be far less easy to get a prosecution.
		
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This raises the question: In this thread, we are talking about a single smack or strike with a whip, aren't we?? That's my impression and it never occurred to me until now that "Smack your horse" might mean more than one smack.

So are there situations where _more than one smack_ in quick succession are / have been necessary? And at what point does this become beating the horse? The ghastly spectacle - which we have all witnessed, I'm sure - of a horse getting a 'thwack! thwack! thwack!' while or, more usually, after refusing a jump comes to mind.


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## Dizzy socks (24 January 2013)

fburton said:



			From another thread...



This raises the question: In this thread, we are talking about a single smack or strike with a whip, aren't we?? That's my impression and it never occurred to me until now that "Smack your horse" might mean more than one smack.

So are there situations where _more than one smack_ in quick succession are / have been necessary? And at what point does this become beating the horse? The ghastly spectacle - which we have all witnessed, I'm sure - of a horse getting a 'thwack! thwack! thwack!' while or, more usually, after refusing a jump comes to mind.
		
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When posting this thread, I was thinking of just one smack, not multiple ones.


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## popeyesno1fan (25 January 2013)

I think I've smacked him 3 times in 6 years, but it was just reminding him of his manners. For the most part, he behaves so there is no need. I have a pony on trial thats going back on monday, but if she was mine, she would def warrant a few smacks in a week. she has no manners, or boundaries. She's lovely to ride, but is a pig on the ground, and as she's 12.2hh and a kids pony, not something i would entertain. She kicks the walls constantly in the stable, it drives me mad, but thats not something warranting correction. It's her thing. Looking forward to her going home though. have another in the pipeline. fingers crossed. xx


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## Shantara (25 January 2013)

fburton said:



			So are there situations where _more than one smack_ in quick succession are / have been necessary? And at what point does this become beating the horse? The ghastly spectacle - which we have all witnessed, I'm sure - of a horse getting a 'thwack! thwack! thwack!' while or, more usually, after refusing a jump comes to mind.
		
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I saw a lady doing this the other day, it didn't help the situation at all!

I was riding with the group and since we're allowed to ride on the path outside of the village, we were on the wrong side of the road, on the path. We saw a horse and rider coming towards us, quite far off, so I shouted back and said to get off the path and to the other side of the road. All our horses were fine, if a little curious, but the other horse started getting a bit "lookie" and excited and the woman, out of nowhere, thrashed her horse 5 or 6 times on the rump. The horse then really starts acting up, not surprisingly. She eventually gets it under control and gets it to walk past us. Why? Why did it need whipping? I will whip Ned if I feel I really have to, but that's not happened in a long while and I don't think I would have considered it in that situation!


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## Miss L Toe (25 January 2013)

Depends on the nature of the beast.
An exuberant youngster testing boundaries: a quick rap with the halter end IMMEDIATELY after the behavour and no fuss seems to work.
With older horses who are intelligent and have a fear/attack response. I would just talk to them, they need to have confidence that you will handle them fairly and consistently. 
I have dealt with a mare who would attack anyone, she was fearless: we had to use a thick wooden stave to handle her,  it was self defence, she did become more normalised after a few months, which included charging down the field at full tilt teeth bared......... I bopped her on the teeth!  I still have the scars from our first encounter. Mare 1...me Nil. Eventually were able to groom her not tied up, she preferred this to being tied up, this was a breakthrough..... a compromise!
Kicking when handling feet may be due to dislike [feeling trapped], and they need to be handled regularly to ovecome this. They need to be de-sensitised.
Nasty kicking eg waiting till you or farrier is in a weak position, probably indicates a horse that needs to be handled in a professional manner, treated as a herd animal and never as a pet animal. Usually spoiled by an amateur owner.


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## TrasaM (25 January 2013)

This week I had to watch whilst a youngster got whacked because he wouldn't let her put the wormer in his mouth. Like that will reassure him! Every time she approached he tried to escape by rearing up or backing away so she decided he was being naughty and got a crop. By the time she'd finished I was almost in tears. all because she gets impatient and then angry instead of winning his trust. 
Its the other end of the scale from the too soft owner and just as bad if not worse because it makes the horse distrustful and fearful.


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## amandap (25 January 2013)

TrasaM said:



			This week I had to watch whilst a youngster got whacked because he wouldn't let her put the wormer in his mouth. Like that will reassure him! Every time she approached he tried to escape by rearing up or backing away so she decided he was being naughty and got a crop. By the time she'd finished I was almost in tears. all because she gets impatient and then angry instead of winning his trust. 
Its the other end of the scale from the too soft owner and just as bad if not worse because it makes the horse distrustful and fearful. 

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I think handler frustration is a big reason the whip comes out in a bashing way. The focus is on the job that MUST be done or the win that must be got at any cost sadly. 
In your example how much wormer did the horse actually get anyway? Pointless exercize all round imo.


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## TrasaM (25 January 2013)

amandap said:



			I think handler frustration is a big reason the whip comes out in a bashing way. The focus is on the job that MUST be done or the win that must be got at any cost sadly. 
In your example how much wormer did the horse actually get anyway? Pointless exercize all round imo.
		
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Half the wormer was put into his feed in the end AND he ate it. So situation could have been avoided. Rest was administered later with the assistance from another friend but he was still freaking out every time he saw his owner approach. She didn't realise why until I told her what had happened earlier.


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## Shantara (25 January 2013)

TrasaM said:



			This week I had to watch whilst a youngster got whacked because he wouldn't let her put the wormer in his mouth. Like that will reassure him! Every time she approached he tried to escape by rearing up or backing away so she decided he was being naughty and got a crop. By the time she'd finished I was almost in tears. all because she gets impatient and then angry instead of winning his trust. 
Its the other end of the scale from the too soft owner and just as bad if not worse because it makes the horse distrustful and fearful. 

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Ned didn't like the wormer either (who can blame them? Smells like vomit and bleach, goodness knows what it tastes like), getting my whip wouldn't even cross my mind! It was my first time doing it and I held him, while a friend did the wormer. I stroke his face and talked to him. He didn't like it, but he didn't throw a strop. That's another case where I feel whips have no place.


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## Dry Rot (25 January 2013)

amandap said:



			I think handler frustration is a big reason the whip comes out in a bashing way. The focus is on the job that MUST be done or the win that must be got at any cost sadly. 
In your example how much wormer did the horse actually get anyway? Pointless exercize all round imo.
		
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Whenever I am doing some training and feel my temper might be becoming a bit frayed, or I see someone else in that situation, I think of a documentary on TV about the learning behaviour of chimps!

The chimp was given a series of problems to solve. To reach a banana suspended from the roof of its cage, it was given a stick to knock it down with. Success!

The second task was to stand on a box to use the stick to dislodge a banana suspended a little bit higher. After a bit of experimentation, it succeeded in that too.

Then it had to use two boxes.... Again, success.

Then it was given a stick that was too short..... 

After trying hard to solve the problem for a while, the ape flew into a rage and, like a hairy Basil Fawlty, started beating the floor with the stick!

Does that ring any bells? 

Some people just don't get it. IF a smack is needed, it needs to be timed and set up so the subject believes it is IT'S action which caused the shock. No animal is intentionally bad or naughty, it has simply been badly programmed (which can happen unintentionally and through no fault of the trainer/owner).

It has been proved in the laboratory (presumably with rats!), that negative stimuli can have a bad effect (sometimes a considerable time) after the "punishment" (for which read smack) was delivered. So, you smack your horse which solves the immediate problem (or not), but you now have a head or stick shy horse. The horse will associate the unpleasant experience with something, but what? It is certainly not going to sit down and work it out, nor do horses have morals. Who or what will it blame?


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## amandap (25 January 2013)

TrasaM said:



			Half the wormer was put into his feed in the end AND he ate it. So situation could have been avoided. Rest was administered later with the assistance from another friend but he was still freaking out every time he saw his owner approach. She didn't realise why until I told her what had happened earlier. 

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Just think how different it all could have been if the handler just stopped and thought about it and tried another way in the first place. 




Dry Rot said:



			Whenever I am doing some training and feel my temper might be becoming a bit frayed, or I see someone else in that situation, I think of a documentary on TV about the learning behaviour of chimps!

The chimp was given a series of problems to solve. To reach a banana suspended from the roof of its cage, it was given a stick to knock it down with. Success!

The second task was to stand on a box to use the stick to dislodge a banana suspended a little bit higher. After a bit of experimentation, it succeeded in that too.

Then it had to use two boxes.... Again, success.

Then it was given a stick that was too short..... 

After trying hard to solve the problem for a while, the ape flew into a rage and, like a hairy Basil Fawlty, started beating the floor with the stick!

Does that ring any bells?
		
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Loud and clear!

I wonder what would have happened if the chimp was given the short stick first though? He had learned very well that the stick did the trick so perhaps that had a bearing on his tantrum?


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## Fii (25 January 2013)

TrasaM said:



			This week I had to watch whilst a youngster got whacked because he wouldn't let her put the wormer in his mouth. Like that will reassure him! Every time she approached he tried to escape by rearing up or backing away so she decided he was being naughty and got a crop. By the time she'd finished I was almost in tears. all because she gets impatient and then angry instead of winning his trust. 
Its the other end of the scale from the too soft owner and just as bad if not worse because it makes the horse distrustful and fearful. 

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amandap said:



			I think handler frustration is a big reason the whip comes out in a bashing way. The focus is on the job that MUST be done or the win that must be got at any cost sadly. 
In your example how much wormer did the horse actually get anyway? Pointless exercize all round imo.
		
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See i dont get this, she had to go and find a whip to hit it with?
  It would take me ages to find a whip to use depending on where i was at the time...so her horse played up, she then decided to get a whip, which took how long?....and then try to beat him into submission?  I can see someone getting frustrated/loosing their temper and hitting out with a whip, but surely not in this case as she had some time out to get the whip!


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## amandap (25 January 2013)

Fii said:



			See i dont get this, she had to go and find a whip to hit it with?
  It would take me ages to find a whip to use depending on where i was at the time...so her horse played up, she then decided to get a whip, which took how long?....and then try to beat him into submission?  I can see someone getting frustrated/loosing their temper and hitting out with a whip, but surely not in this case as she had some time out to get the whip!
		
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That's why I picked up on the chimp being given a longer stick that _worked_ first. He had learned it worked and perhaps learning was involved in this persons decision to get a stick? Or even in her thinking it was an appropriate tool and way to deal with the situation?
Just musing. We, just like horses generally don't do things for absolutely no reason. We have usually learned or been convinced something will work. If it then doesn't we can get frustrated and even lose our tempers. Just like the chimp.


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## TrasaM (25 January 2013)

The chimp story sort of sums it up nicely  

I think that using aggression has worked with previous horses. We are not talking about someone new to horses btw. This youngster is an Arab and has a lovely friendly nature. So far.  However he's becoming very distrustful of the owner. She also whacks him when ridden if he refuses to move. That's if kicking does not work.

On the plus side I'm learning how not to treat horses.


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## AengusOg (25 January 2013)

Fii said:



			See i dont get this, she had to go and find a whip to hit it with?
  It would take me ages to find a whip to use depending on where i was at the time...so her horse played up, she then decided to get a whip, which took how long?....and then try to beat him into submission?  I can see someone getting frustrated/loosing their temper and hitting out with a whip, but surely not in this case as she had some time out to get the whip!
		
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This is not unusual behaviour for some people. It stems from a lack of imagination and knowledge of alternative ways to work with horses.


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## Dry Rot (25 January 2013)

AengusOg said:



			This is not unusual behaviour for some people. It stems from a lack of imagination and knowledge of alternative ways to work with horses.
		
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There was a character at a local show smacking a horse back at the horse box because it had played up in the ring! An SSPCA inspector was attempting to explain where the man had got the psychology wrong! I'm afraid my words were a bit more blunt but I doubt if the message got through.

There are some very stupid people in this world, I suspect it is mostly caused by closing their ears to reason; imagination has nothing to do with. How does one "imagine" the correct way to treat a horse or any other animal? It has to be learnt. There is a cure for ignorance but none for stupidity. And I could give an example of that!


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