# Colic surgery - would you?  Have you?



## {97702} (31 January 2016)

Just considering changing insurance companies, and the one I am considering offer vets fees of £3k per incident - now I've had horses long enough to know that it is scarily easy to rack up that much in vets fees  

The one expense which came to mind first was colic surgery, but I've always suspected that if it came to that I wouldn't go ahead and would have the horse PTS instead.

I don't wish to upset anyone, that is very much a personal view, but I just wondered how many people had elected to go ahead with colic surgery?  Do you feel now that it was the right choice?  I suppose what I am getting at is whether I am being too narrow minded not considering it.


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## be positive (31 January 2016)

I had one operated on many years ago, he went in with suspected grass sickness once in and scanned it proved to be an intussusception and the only option was surgery, he survived then had a setback so went in for a second operation 48hours later, he then failed to start his guts working so was going to be pts, the staff took him for a pick of grass and he picked up immediately so came home a week or so later, he had lost loads of weight and looked fairly dreadful but was an excellent patient, made a full recovery and enjoyed a totally normal active life for the next 12 years. 
Would I have put him through it if I had known what it would entail, I have no idea as it snowballed once he was there as often seems to be the case when horses get into hospital it can be hard to make a decision to stop treatment when the vets take control, finances would come into play now as his 2 ops and extended stay would probably be in the region of £10k, at the time it was almost all covered by the £1k?? insurance but I think it was slightly different in those days, at a training centre money was not as important as getting experience so I think many ops were done at a far lower cost than they will be now when every swab, dressing, needle, etc will be charged for often at huge mark up.

As for the horse I now own he will never go into hospital again, very bad experience last time he went in, so I have just stopped insuring him there is not much they would pay out for and as colic surgery will not be considered there is little point, having seen the worst of what can happen when a horse goes in for treatment means my views have changed rather.

I would certainly not discount surgery for another horse as long as they are fairly young, are happy to be stabled and the yard has suitable facilities to allow recovery to be well managed, which not all yards can offer, then I would consider it.


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## ycbm (31 January 2016)

A horse I used to own and loved very much even after having to rehome him was operated on. He colicked again at two weeks and was put down. His last two weeks of life were of pain, confinement and confusion. I would never have one of mine operated on.


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## EQUIDAE (31 January 2016)

I know of an eventer who had a horse that had two lots of colic surgery, plus and infected wound. The horse came back to full health and won his first event post surgery in 2015. Less than 12 months between surgery and the win!


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## HashRouge (31 January 2016)

I wouldn't with my current mare, as she is nearly 23 and I would be incredibly worried about her prospects of a healthy recovery. As for a younger, fitter horse, I don't know. A friend of mine lost her mare fairly recently when she came through the op okay but broke her leg in recovery . It is a big decision.


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## Flame_ (31 January 2016)

My horse was found in the morning having been ill too long for surgery to have had a good prognosis, however the two horses that went to Leahurst for colic surgery from my yard, one in particular, did not have a good time at all between becoming ill and being put down anyway, so I am glad I could spare my horse that and have him put down quickly at home.

That said, he had a GA and operation to remove a keratoma as a 5 year old which cost the full £5k of vet fees. That did have a good prognosis, was not a traumatic ordeal and was a total success. 

I am glad that that money was available when surgery was the right thing to do.


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## Mrs G (31 January 2016)

I had my adored 6yr old tb operated on when he had a sudden, severe colic; he nearly didn't come out of recovery but he rallied and after a week we took him home.  Aftercare was hard on him; his incision got infected, then about 6 weeks after the op he started colicking again, then again, and again, getting more frequent and more severe until neither of us could stand any more and he was finally pts.  If I could go back I would never have put him through all that suffering, £7000 later (insurance covered £5000 of that) and I still lost him.


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## Jnhuk (31 January 2016)

I was put in this situation last week with my 14 year old gelding who had never colicked to my knowledge before. I have always thought I wouldn't go with colic surgery.   On the drive through to the vets, I discussed things with a knowledgeable friend so I was willing to consider it if given my lad was given a reasonable chance.  If the vets had given me a more positive outcome following further tests, I probably would have considered it. However, I was advised from their experience of this type of surgical colic (EFE) , outcome was poor and even if went to surgery, vet said  from his experience that when they saw the actual damage that they would recommend PTS on the operating table.  My vets were brilliant and I am lucky that they are an equine practice and hospital.

PM showed this to be the case. 

Horrid situation, such a shock and heartbreaking but at the same time, I just knew it was the right decision to have him PTS.

I think it is one of those things until you are in the situation what you say and what you do may change depending on vet advice, age of horse and also financial impact even with insurance cover.


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## Pinkvboots (31 January 2016)

I wouldn't put one of my horses through it.


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## Jnhuk (31 January 2016)

Mrs G said:



			I had my adored 6yr old tb operated on when he had a sudden, severe colic; he nearly didn't come out of recovery but he rallied and after a week we took him home.  Aftercare was hard on him; his incision got infected, then about 6 weeks after the op he started colicking again, then again, and again, getting more frequent and more severe until neither of us could stand any more and he was finally pts.  If I could go back I would never have put him through all that suffering, £7000 later (insurance covered £5000 of that) and I still lost him.
		
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Hugs


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## pepsimaxrock (1 February 2016)

I did, and I would certainly consider it again, despite a difficult and uncertain recovery which is ongoing.  
We are nearly 6 months from surgery and my mare has had vets consider PTS 5 times.  Each time the vet has pulled back from recommending it despite initially suggesting it to me. 
I find anyone who posts "I wouldn't put one of my horses through it"  has either not considered it properly, isnt insured and cant afford it, or doesnt care for his/her horses enough.  
This decision takes extraordinarily careful consideration.  My dear little mare is now being worked, will start canter this week, is still on steroids and may not yet make a full recovery, if any recovery at all.  But she has never (apart from when colicking) been unhappy or miserable and is enjoying life. So it is good we have come this far.
It actually angers me when holier than thou folks say they would never put their horses through it.  Because I dont think they have properly considered it or the alternatives, or they dont give a s***


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## pepsimaxrock (1 February 2016)

Jnhuk said:



			Hugs
		
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So so sorry.  This could easily - still could be - my situation.  Insurance goes nowhere near far enough.  Im on around 8k (5k insurance) and she is still with us, but on steroids, coming off them this week.  Time will tell.  xxx


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## zigzag (1 February 2016)

I wouldn't. Known several horses who have had it and all have been PTS within 3 months of having surgery


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## jrp204 (1 February 2016)

No I wouldn't put a horse through it.


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## ycbm (1 February 2016)

pepsimaxrock said:



			I did, and I would certainly consider it again, despite a difficult and uncertain recovery which is ongoing.  
We are nearly 6 months from surgery and my mare has had vets consider PTS 5 times.  Each time the vet has pulled back from recommending it despite initially suggesting it to me. 
I find anyone who posts "I wouldn't put one of my horses through it"  has either not considered it properly, isnt insured and cant afford it, or doesnt care for his/her horses enough.  
This decision takes extraordinarily careful consideration.  My dear little mare is now being worked, will start canter this week, is still on steroids and may not yet make a full recovery, if any recovery at all.  But she has never (apart from when colicking) been unhappy or miserable and is enjoying life. So it is good we have come this far.
It actually angers me when holier than thou folks say they would never put their horses through it.  Because I dont think they have properly considered it or the alternatives, or they dont give a s***
		
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I am sorry your mare has difficulties recovering, but it is precisely because of stories like yours, which I read at length on your thread that I would not put a horse of mine through it.

I have considered the alternative. I have the money.  I care for them as much as you care for yours. There is only one alternative, it's a quick clean death. It's what I will choose for any horse of mine which has serious colic.

I realise that you have written this in an emotional state, and seem to be taking the fact that other people would make a different decision as some kind of criticism,  but you have been downright offensive in this post.


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## Wagtail (1 February 2016)

I don't think I can answer this question until I am faced with it. I lost a horse a few years ago after colic surgery. He was a very big lad at around 800kilos and just being on his back through the surgery paralysed him and he couldn't get back up again so was PTS. I so wish I had had him PTS at home and saved the long journey the night, and him being PTS surrounded by strangers. If my little mare needed surgery, I really don't know what I'd do. She's a much smaller and lighter horse so hopefully the same thing wouldn't happen, but I don't think she's do well at box rest. My head says that if faced with the question, I should let her go. Then I hear the success stories and I waver. I think every person who really loves their horse will make the decision in the best interests of the horse. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. But it is unfair to say those who decide to PTS do not love their horses as much as those who choose surgery. The horse I lost was not insured. We paid for his surgery on our credit card. It was not money we had spare. But probably, despite my mare being insured, I would have to follow my head on this one.


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## Buddy'sMum (1 February 2016)

ycbm said:



			I am sorry your mare has difficulties recovering, but it is precisely because of stories like yours, which I read at length on your thread that I would not put a horse of mine through it.

I have considered the alternative. I have the money.  I care for them as much as you care for yours. There is only one alternative, it's a quick clean death. It's what I will choose for any horse of mine which has serious colic.

I realise that you have written this in an emotional state, and seem to be taking the fact that other people would make a different decision as some kind of criticism,  but you have been downright offensive in this post.
		
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Couldn't agree more.


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## {97702} (1 February 2016)

pepsimaxrock said:



			I find anyone who posts "I wouldn't put one of my horses through it"  has either not considered it properly, isnt insured and cant afford it, or doesnt care for his/her horses enough.  
This decision takes extraordinarily careful consideration.  My dear little mare is now being worked, will start canter this week, is still on steroids and may not yet make a full recovery, if any recovery at all.  But she has never (apart from when colicking) been unhappy or miserable and is enjoying life. So it is good we have come this far.
It actually angers me when holier than thou folks say they would never put their horses through it.  Because I dont think they have properly considered it or the alternatives, or they dont give a s***
		
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Wow - well I am sorry that you have gone through such a difficult time with your mare, but as others have said that is incredibly offensive and factually incorrect


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## Tiddlypom (1 February 2016)

Whether you would send a horse in for colic surgery aside (I wouldn't), it seems to be rather easy to rack up 5k of vets bills for a number of other conditions, eg PSD. Just something to consider.


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## Starzaan (1 February 2016)

Lévrier;13160967 said:
			
		


			Wow - well I am sorry that you have gone through such a difficult time with your mare, but as others have said that is incredibly offensive and factually incorrect
		
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This absolutely. Your post has really upset me. I had my darling six year old PTS when he was colicking and battling toxic shock. I had the option of surgery but I would never have done that to him. Watching him suffer just whilst waiting for the vet was hard enough.  

That does NOT mean that I didn't care about him or that I 'didn't give a ****'. 

How nasty. I understand that you are writing this from an emotional place, and I'm sorry to hear you've had a hard time with your mare, but please don't tell others they are heartless just because they made a different decision to you.


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## PorkChop (1 February 2016)

I couldn't say yes or no until I was faced with the scenario tbh - though all I would say is that I would always insure for 5k Vets fees.  It can be easily racked up to this in a short space of time with many injuries/illnesses.

What I am saying is if you are going to bother to insure, then get the best policy and coverage you can.


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## MotherOfChickens (1 February 2016)

pepsimaxrock said:



			I did, and I would certainly consider it again, despite a difficult and uncertain recovery which is ongoing.  
We are nearly 6 months from surgery and my mare has had vets consider PTS 5 times.  Each time the vet has pulled back from recommending it despite initially suggesting it to me. 
I find anyone who posts "I wouldn't put one of my horses through it"  has either not considered it properly, isnt insured and cant afford it, or doesnt care for his/her horses enough.  
This decision takes extraordinarily careful consideration.  My dear little mare is now being worked, will start canter this week, is still on steroids and may not yet make a full recovery, if any recovery at all.  But she has never (apart from when colicking) been unhappy or miserable and is enjoying life. So it is good we have come this far.
It actually angers me when holier than thou folks say they would never put their horses through it.  Because I dont think they have properly considered it or the alternatives, or they dont give a s***
		
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I wish you and your horse many more happy years together.I've known some come back very well.
Well, personally I would not although I'd not judge anyone else for doing it. As an equine VN I was present at maybe 100 surgical colics back in the 90s, probably more over three years tbh, most of which went on to make some sort of recovery, some of them also came back for further surgery. 

My horse is insured right now, but I will not put myself in debt or put myself through the same emotional turmoil that I did with my last horse (over something else) with a condition that has a very guarded prognosis, or a horse through the same level of box rest etc that he went through. It doesn't mean that I am tight, uncaring or ignorant-I would be doing whats right for me and mine.


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## twiggy2 (1 February 2016)

pepsimaxrock said:



			I find anyone who posts "I wouldn't put one of my horses through it"  has either not considered it properly, isnt insured and cant afford it, or doesnt care for his/her horses enough.  
It actually angers me when holier than thou folks say they would never put their horses through it.  Because I dont think they have properly considered it or the alternatives, or they dont give a s***
		
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I would defend your right to choose, but I work at a vets and would not consider colic surgery an option for any horse in my care, the medical notes for my horse and pony both say no colic surgery in case I was in the unlikely position as to be uncontactable if the worst happened. Cost would not be an issue due to working at the vets, I have considered it often as I have witnessed many horses and ponies before and after surgery, I have had many frank discussions about it with my vets, I care enough for my horse that I have given it the thought I have and IMO the surgery is too invasive, the recovery too long, the life long management to restrictive (for the horse and me) and the risks too great. So it is not an option that I would take, this does not make me 'holier than thou' it just means I have a different view to you.


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## CBFan (1 February 2016)

pepsimaxrock said:



			I did, and I would certainly consider it again, despite a difficult and uncertain recovery which is ongoing.  
We are nearly 6 months from surgery and my mare has had vets consider PTS 5 times.  Each time the vet has pulled back from recommending it despite initially suggesting it to me. 
I find anyone who posts "I wouldn't put one of my horses through it"  has either not considered it properly, isnt insured and cant afford it, or doesnt care for his/her horses enough.  
This decision takes extraordinarily careful consideration.  My dear little mare is now being worked, will start canter this week, is still on steroids and may not yet make a full recovery, if any recovery at all.  But she has never (apart from when colicking) been unhappy or miserable and is enjoying life. So it is good we have come this far.
It actually angers me when holier than thou folks say they would never put their horses through it.  Because I dont think they have properly considered it or the alternatives, or they dont give a s***
		
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Holier than thou? Have you read your own words?? I too am very sorry for what you have had to go through with your mare but please don't judge people for making the decision for a quick, clean end to their horse's suffering. Many of us would pay much more than we have to keep our horses with us and choosing to let them go is one of the most selfless things we can do.


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## LD&S (1 February 2016)

pepsimaxrock said:



			I did, and I would certainly consider it again, despite a difficult and uncertain recovery which is ongoing.  
We are nearly 6 months from surgery and my mare has had vets consider PTS 5 times.  Each time the vet has pulled back from recommending it despite initially suggesting it to me. 
I find anyone who posts "I wouldn't put one of my horses through it"  has either not considered it properly, isnt insured and cant afford it, or doesnt care for his/her horses enough.  
This decision takes extraordinarily careful consideration.  My dear little mare is now being worked, will start canter this week, is still on steroids and may not yet make a full recovery, if any recovery at all.  But she has never (apart from when colicking) been unhappy or miserable and is enjoying life. So it is good we have come this far.
It actually angers me when holier than thou folks say they would never put their horses through it.  Because I dont think they have properly considered it or the alternatives, or they dont give a s***
		
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Not only do I think your assumption is harsh I think quite frankly it is ridiculous, every case, every horse has to be treated as an individual, some have other medical problems that would make box rest a problem some are probably well enough under normal circumstances to potter happily round the field but may not be able to cope with surgery. My little mare who I lost last year had a heart murmur and COPD, there is no way I would have put her through surgery because I had 'considered it properly.


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## Orca (1 February 2016)

It is very unlikely that I would opt for colic surgery.

She is well insured.

I give a *****


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## madlady (1 February 2016)

pepsimaxrock said:



			I did, and I would certainly consider it again, despite a difficult and uncertain recovery which is ongoing.  
We are nearly 6 months from surgery and my mare has had vets consider PTS 5 times.  Each time the vet has pulled back from recommending it despite initially suggesting it to me. 
I find anyone who posts "I wouldn't put one of my horses through it"  has either not considered it properly, isnt insured and cant afford it, or doesnt care for his/her horses enough.  
This decision takes extraordinarily careful consideration.  My dear little mare is now being worked, will start canter this week, is still on steroids and may not yet make a full recovery, if any recovery at all.  But she has never (apart from when colicking) been unhappy or miserable and is enjoying life. So it is good we have come this far.
It actually angers me when holier than thou folks say they would never put their horses through it.  Because I dont think they have properly considered it or the alternatives, or they dont give a s***
		
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And you aren't being holier than thou and completely offensive in what you have posted?

I would never put any of mine through colic surgery precisely because I know all the risks and recovery issues but then I'm not a 'keep them alive at all costs' type of person - that is because I put the welfare of my horses in front of my emotions.


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## Apercrumbie (1 February 2016)

pepsimaxrock said:



			I did, and I would certainly consider it again, despite a difficult and uncertain recovery which is ongoing.  
We are nearly 6 months from surgery and my mare has had vets consider PTS 5 times.  Each time the vet has pulled back from recommending it despite initially suggesting it to me. 
I find anyone who posts "I wouldn't put one of my horses through it"  has either not considered it properly, isnt insured and cant afford it, or doesnt care for his/her horses enough.  
This decision takes extraordinarily careful consideration.  My dear little mare is now being worked, will start canter this week, is still on steroids and may not yet make a full recovery, if any recovery at all.  But she has never (apart from when colicking) been unhappy or miserable and is enjoying life. So it is good we have come this far.
It actually angers me when holier than thou folks say they would never put their horses through it.  Because I dont think they have properly considered it or the alternatives, or they dont give a s***
		
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Or because after weighing up all the options we know that it isn't the right thing for our horses.  My boy is nearly 20, he has to have sedalin for box rest and is very prone to laminitis so cannot have steroids.  Even if he made it through the surgery, which is a huge strain on such a large animal, his recovery would be miserable and as he cannot have steroids, it would be likely that there would be serious complications post-surgery.  At the moment, I probably wouldn't put him through the surgery, even though it would completely break my heart.  Your comments about not giving a s*** are really insensitive.


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## supsup (1 February 2016)

pepsimaxrock said:



			I did, and I would certainly consider it again, despite a difficult and uncertain recovery which is ongoing.  
We are nearly 6 months from surgery and my mare has had vets consider PTS 5 times.  Each time the vet has pulled back from recommending it despite initially suggesting it to me. 
I find anyone who posts "I wouldn't put one of my horses through it"  has either not considered it properly, isnt insured and cant afford it, or doesnt care for his/her horses enough.  
This decision takes extraordinarily careful consideration.  My dear little mare is now being worked, will start canter this week, is still on steroids and may not yet make a full recovery, if any recovery at all.  But she has never (apart from when colicking) been unhappy or miserable and is enjoying life. So it is good we have come this far.
It actually angers me when holier than thou folks say they would never put their horses through it.  Because I dont think they have properly considered it or the alternatives, or they dont give a s***
		
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Actually, I sort of agree with some of the above statement - it takes careful consideration for each and every individual situation. Not that every horse should undergo colic surgery, but I don't understand why anybody would make a firm decision against surgery ahead of time. You can't possibly know what the situation will be should the question arise. I would arm myself with all the information possible, but still reserve the decision for the moment when it has to be made, depending on the type of colic, time that has passed, vet's opinion on the horse's chances etc. 
I know several horses who had colic surgery and recovered fully. They continue(d) to live as normal a life as previously. I've also known a 45 year old donkey who came through colic surgery fine! (In his case, I'd probably have called it a day, but he did recover well and had a few more years.)


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## Casey76 (1 February 2016)

pepsimaxrock said:



			Because I dont think they have properly considered it or the alternatives, or they dont give a s***
		
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How dare you!

You have no idea what other people have gone through.  Just because you put your mare through surgery, and months and months of difficult recovery, doesn't mean that because other people wouldn't do the same that it is because they don't give a ****.


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## Apercrumbie (1 February 2016)

supsup said:



			Actually, I sort of agree with some of the above statement - it takes careful consideration for each and every individual situation. Not that every horse should undergo colic surgery, but I don't understand why anybody would make a firm decision against surgery ahead of time. You can't possibly know what the situation will be should the question arise. I would arm myself with all the information possible, but still reserve the decision for the moment when it has to be made, depending on the type of colic, time that has passed, vet's opinion on the horse's chances etc. 
I know several horses who had colic surgery and recovered fully. They continue(d) to live as normal a life as previously. I've also known a 45 year old donkey who came through colic surgery fine! (In his case, I'd probably have called it a day, but he did recover well and had a few more years.)
		
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But most of us do know the situation exactly - we know our horses, we know their age, their medical history and we know how they respond to certain situations like box rest, horsepital, different medications etc.  No one has said on this thread that colic surgery never works, they have said that they wouldn't put their horse through it.  You saying that they haven't properly considered it is a sweeping statement and involves knowledge about their horse and their situation that you couldn't possibly know.


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## be positive (1 February 2016)

supsup said:



			Actually, I sort of agree with some of the above statement - it takes careful consideration for each and every individual situation. Not that every horse should undergo colic surgery, but I don't understand why anybody would make a firm decision against surgery ahead of time. You can't possibly know what the situation will be should the question arise. I would arm myself with all the information possible, but still reserve the decision for the moment when it has to be made, depending on the type of colic, time that has passed, vet's opinion on the horse's chances etc. 
I know several horses who had colic surgery and recovered fully. They continue(d) to live as normal a life as previously. I've also known a 45 year old donkey who came through colic surgery fine! (In his case, I'd probably have called it a day, but he did recover well and had a few more years.)
		
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I think it is a decision that can be made before you actually need to, in the event of your horse having a serious colic it can be very difficult to make an informed choice especially if the vet wants to send it in, any delay can make a difference so it must sometimes be easier to go with the vets and send them in, if you have already made your decision it is easier to stick to it and not be swayed by an optimistic vet. 

I have, as already posted, sent one in and gone along with it with a very good result so feel more than able to make an informed judgement as to what I will do with other horses in my care, my youngest horse would cope with box rest with me but will not be sent in for treatment, for anything, due to how he suffered last time he went to hospital even though it would be somewhere else it is not fair to subject him to a possible repeat.

Every case is different but it is the owners prerogative to make a choice based on the facts if that choice is made to not send a horse in it does not make them less caring than an owner that sends a horse in, it is not about point scoring but doing what feels right for the individual.


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## palterwell (1 February 2016)

I did 4 years ago and I would do it again. A lot depends on the horse, age ,temperament and ability to cope with rehab.


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## Tiddlypom (1 February 2016)

be positive said:



			I think it is a decision that can be made before you actually need to, in the event of your horse having a serious colic it can be very difficult to make an informed choice especially if the vet wants to send it in, any delay can make a difference so it must sometimes be easier to go with the vets and send them in, if you have already made your decision it is easier to stick to it and not be swayed by an optimistic vet.
		
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Agree completely with this. It seems that my vet practice now wants colic sufferers referred straight into Leahurst if the colic doesn't settle after a single visit, they prefer not to come out a second time to reassess. Whilst I can see their point, as surgery has a much better chance of success before the horse gets too sick, it can take courage to explain that you are declining surgery. It's easy to get caught up and railroaded into a decision that you're not happy with.

My take on colic is that I would take a horse with an impaction or similar to my local horsepital for full medical support (and that can be pricey, too), but not agree to surgery.


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## Enfys (1 February 2016)

pepsimaxrock said:



			II find anyone who posts "I wouldn't put one of my horses through it"  has either not considered it properly, isnt insured and cant afford it, or doesnt care for his/her horses enough.  

It actually angers me when holier than thou folks say they would never put their horses through it.  Because I dont think they have properly considered it or the alternatives, or they dont give a s***
		
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Words fail me, what a pious, condescending, and hypocritical little person you are.


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## Enfys (1 February 2016)

Colic surgery - 

would you? Now, knowing what I do now, no. 

Have you?   Yes, Rossdales. New Years day 1991. 5 year old mare. I had her until she was 17. No colic associated problems ever. Went on to have 4 foals, race, do 50 mile endurance and hunted hard for 3 years. 

I have never insured my horses. I pay as I go.


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## ycbm (1 February 2016)

supsup said:



			Actually, I sort of agree with some of the above statement - it takes careful consideration for each and every individual situation. Not that every horse should undergo colic surgery, but I don't understand why anybody would make a firm decision against surgery ahead of time. You can't possibly know what the situation will be should the question arise. I would arm myself with all the information possible, but still reserve the decision for the moment when it has to be made, depending on the type of colic, time that has passed, vet's opinion on the horse's chances etc.
		
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For me it does not take careful consideration of each and every individual situation. I have looked at the survival rates at one year, the complication rates, the re-operation rates, and I have made a decision now, in the cold light of day that none of those statistics justify me putting a horse through colic surgery.  I think I'm much better placed to make that decision now than on the spur of the moment pressurised into an 'it's now or never' decision by a vet with a horse in agony on the end of a lead rope.


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## supsup (1 February 2016)

apercrumbie said:



			But most of us do know the situation exactly - we know our horses, we know their age, their medical history and we know how they respond to certain situations like box rest, horsepital, different medications etc.  No one has said on this thread that colic surgery never works, they have said that they wouldn't put their horse through it.  You saying that they haven't properly considered it is a sweeping statement and involves knowledge about their horse and their situation that you couldn't possibly know.
		
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Fine, agreed. But the original question was quite general - would you put a horse through colic surgery? No specifics about the individual. Cost is mentioned, but not the horse's age or condition. If you're talking about a specific individual horse that has other issues, you're already making a case by case decision. I was responding more to the people who state categorically "I'd never put a horse through surgery", followed by "I've seen colic surgeries fail". The fact that some colic surgeries fail (for cases that we don't know any details of) to me is not a good argument for not considering it for another individual.


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## ycbm (1 February 2016)

supsup said:



			Fine, agreed. But the original question was quite general - would you put a horse through colic surgery? No specifics about the individual. Cost is mentioned, but not the horse's age or condition. If you're talking about a specific individual horse that has other issues, you're already making a case by case decision. I was responding more to the people who state categorically "I'd never put a horse through surgery", followed by "I've seen colic surgeries fail". The fact that some colic surgeries fail (for cases that we don't know any details of) to me is not a good argument for not considering it for another individual.
		
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Do you know the survival and complication statistics?  That's what I base my 'I'll never put a horse through it' decision on. And until those improve a lot more, that's what my decision will remain.

1 in 5 of Leahurst patients don't even survive to travel home.


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## EQUIDAE (1 February 2016)

One that beat the odds







http://www.kickondot.com/greateaves-issac/4538211079


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## ILuvCowparsely (1 February 2016)

Lévrier;13160533 said:
			
		


			Just considering changing insurance companies, and the one I am considering offer vets fees of £3k per incident - now I've had horses long enough to know that it is scarily easy to rack up that much in vets fees  

The one expense which came to mind first was colic surgery, but I've always suspected that if it came to that I wouldn't go ahead and would have the horse PTS instead.

I don't wish to upset anyone, that is very much a personal view, but I just wondered how many people had elected to go ahead with colic surgery?  Do you feel now that it was the right choice?  I suppose what I am getting at is whether I am being too narrow minded not considering it.
		
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I recently had to do similar for my donkey who had an impaction and they had to inject the stomach to try break up the mass.  Sadly after a week of tubing and draining the stomach filled up so much that the camera would not go in. I had no option then...........

I know others are against but if this was my horse of a life time etc and this would save her or give her a chance to life  then I would do it, being guided by my vet of course


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## ihatework (1 February 2016)

I would always put a reasonably young horse that was sound and healthy and in full work through the Op once, and such horses are heavily insured.

Any horse with co-conditions or retired would be PTS. 
An unbroken one I'm not sure, would probably depend on how much I liked it.


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## Enfys (1 February 2016)

EQUIDAE said:



			One that beat the odds

[
		
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Good to see


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## chaps89 (1 February 2016)

Current horse no, she has 3 or 4 other health conditions at the age of 6 so I would be inclined to call it a day at that point.
A fit, healthy, young horse I probably would, dependant on vet advice for recovery/recurrence.
I would say tho that I have had 3 claims to date all over £3k for non-emergency problems so I would be wanting a bit more cover personally.
I have £4k vet fee cover but I top it up with a benefit for non-vets fees (hospitalisation and transport charges) and alternative therapies (remedial shoeing, physio etc) meaning I have £5500 cover total- both those extra benefits came in handy last year so it's worth seeing how the the £3k is made up/what extras may be available to add on if necessary.


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## EventingMum (1 February 2016)

I've been faced with this decision once, the horse was in agony, I've never seen one so bad despite pain relief. Once we got to the vet hospital they decided the only option was surgery but I decided against it. He was exhausted, had been through so much already and in all honesty he would have been a nightmare for after care - he hated vets, panicked at the drop of a hat and didn't cope with pain. His pm showed it to be EFE so the prognosis wouldn't have been good which vindicated my decision. If I was faced with this decision again I think it would depend on the horse in question. I may consider it with a young horse, I really don't think I would put an older horse through it although I do know one who recovered well age 15.

I really don't think there is a right or wrong answer here and certainly an owner shouldn't be criticised or subjected to nasty comments whatever they decide; pts or operating - either way they are trying to end the horse's pain.


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## Pinkvboots (1 February 2016)

pepsimaxrock said:



			I did, and I would certainly consider it again, despite a difficult and uncertain recovery which is ongoing.  
We are nearly 6 months from surgery and my mare has had vets consider PTS 5 times.  Each time the vet has pulled back from recommending it despite initially suggesting it to me. 
I find anyone who posts "I wouldn't put one of my horses through it"  has either not considered it properly, isnt insured and cant afford it, or doesnt care for his/her horses enough.  
This decision takes extraordinarily careful consideration.  My dear little mare is now being worked, will start canter this week, is still on steroids and may not yet make a full recovery, if any recovery at all.  But she has never (apart from when colicking) been unhappy or miserable and is enjoying life. So it is good we have come this far.
It actually angers me when holier than thou folks say they would never put their horses through it.  Because I dont think they have properly considered it or the alternatives, or they dont give a s***
		
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why get angry it's a matter opinion I am not angry with you for doing it, it's your choice and your business, there is no need to come on here and suggest those of us that would not put a horse through colic surgery don't give a s*it about our horses that is just downright insulting you don't know any of us personally so keep your angry thoughts to yourself.


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## ycbm (1 February 2016)

EQUIDAE said:



			One that beat the odds







http://www.kickondot.com/greateaves-issac/4538211079

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Lovely  

Actually the odds were in his favour.   Current best statistics that I can find for 2014 are that a little less than two in three return to their previous level of performance. Most of the other one in three die, one in five at the hospital, and the rest some time in the year after coming home.

Recovery is a long process with four months box rest according to the vets I have read up on, and many of the two in three who survive and recover their athletic function will have complications along the way. 

To put that in figures, if a big hospital operated on 250 a year, 200 will live to go home.

40 will be put down at home some time in the next year due to complications.

160 will return to work, most of them at the same level as before they got ill.

All figures approximate.

I thought people would like to know the up to date stats. I hope it helps.

Good luck to anyone going through it at the moment.


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## {97702} (1 February 2016)

ycbm said:



			Lovely  

Actually the odds were in his favour.   Current best statistics that I can find for 2014 are that a little less than two in three return to their previous level of performance. Most of the other one in three die, one in five at the hospital, and the rest some time in the year after coming home.

Recovery is a long process with four months box rest according to the vets I have read up on, and many of the two in three who survive and recover their athletic function will have complications along the way. 

To put that in figures, if a big hospital operated on 250 a year, 200 will live to go home.

40 will be put down at home some time in the next year due to complications.

160 will return to work, most of them at the same level as before they got ill.

All figures approximate.

I thought people would like to know the up to date stats. I hope it helps.

Good luck to anyone going through it at the moment.
		
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Thanks for the stats, that makes interesting reading as indeed does the whole thread.  For my present horse, the thread hasn't changed my mind - he is 9 next month so not old at all, but he worries a lot about life, doesn't like the vets or a change in his routine,  I couldn't see him coping with 4 months of rehab.


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## Jnhuk (1 February 2016)

ycbm said:



			Lovely  

Actually the odds were in his favour.   Current best statistics that I can find for 2014 are that a little less than two in three return to their previous level of performance. Most of the other one in three die, one in five at the hospital, and the rest some time in the year after coming home.

Recovery is a long process with four months box rest according to the vets I have read up on, and many of the two in three who survive and recover their athletic function will have complications along the way. 

To put that in figures, if a big hospital operated on 250 a year, 200 will live to go home.

40 will be put down at home some time in the next year due to complications.

160 will return to work, most of them at the same level as before they got ill.

All figures approximate.

I thought people would like to know the up to date stats. I hope it helps.

Good luck to anyone going through it at the moment.
		
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Are there stats for the different types of  surgical colic?


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## Pearlsasinger (1 February 2016)

About a year ago, my vet advised me that my mare was too big and too old to even consider colic surgery.  Fortunately she made a full recovery from impaction colic, after 3 vet visits in 36 hrs.  I do not  think that it is any-one else's business if an owner decides not to put a horse through  the stress of travelling, surgery, a stay in a strange place and extended box-rest.


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## JenJ (1 February 2016)

Haven't read most of the posts - still too raw - but have glanced at some, and just wanted to thank all that have posted saying 'no'.

Mine colicked last November, I'd always sworn never to do surgery, but my resolve was severely tested that day. I was called back to the hospital later that day, having been told we'd give her 48 hours to see if she 'fixed' with medicine, and by the time I got there I think she was beyond help and I let her go. But I have still got that little voice saying 'what if I'd just said yes to surgery'. Reading these has helped ease my 'guilt', so thank you all x


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## ycbm (1 February 2016)

Jnhuk said:



			Are there stats for the different types of  surgical colic?
		
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Yes there are, and they differ hugely,  but you don't normally know until after you are committed to surgery (and often not until the belly is open)  whether your horse has a type that it is very likely to live through or a type it's very likely to die a nasty death from. So for me, deciding whether to go for an operation or not, the average statistics are all that matter.


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## Boulty (1 February 2016)

Current horse probably not no.  I just don't think he would cope with the extended box rest and we'd end up killing each other (for reference he tried to run me over the other weekend cos he'd been coming in on a night (out during day I might add) for a whole 5 days and was fed up of it...) he also weaves and boxwalks when stressed and isn't above attempts at door climbing and he needs specific circumstances to settle in a small paddock on his own without running up and down the fence... he has other issues that require work and movement too and also has cushings so at increased risk of prolonged recovery, infections and other complications and I do honestly think the stress of surgery and recovery would be highly likely to trigger laminitis of some form given some of his history


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## applecart14 (2 February 2016)

I wouldn't because its not fair on my horse, he would need a considerable amount of box rest and would stiffen up as he has arthritis and just go to pot.   couldn't because I am not covered on insurance for this, and even if I was wouldn't put him through it for the reason above.
I also wouldn't because I've heard many stories of horses that don't fare well afterwards.


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## Murphy88 (2 February 2016)

Lévrier;13161501 said:
			
		


			Thanks for the stats, that makes interesting reading as indeed does the whole thread.  For my present horse, the thread hasn't changed my mind - he is 9 next month so not old at all, but he worries a lot about life, doesn't like the vets or a change in his routine,  I couldn't see him coping with 4 months of rehab.
		
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Levrier - I think this is the best way to look at it, regardless of surgery success/prognosis etc it has to come down to the individual horse and owner. When I go out to a horse with colic, I will always ask people at the first visit what their thoughts are on surgery so that they can have a chance to think about it (and hopefully it won't come to that point!) and I would never judge an owner for deciding not to go for it. 

For my own horses, one has many health problems and the other two are 24 and 28 this year, so realistically I probably wouldn't. However, if I had a younger horse I would have absolutely no hesitation in doing colic surgery. Now I do have the advantage that as a vet, I would go into surgery and then depending on what they found would have a good enough idea of prognosis to decide whether to PTS on the table.

I have seen hundreds of horses operated on for colic at my previous job in Kentucky; some broodmares will get colic every year and come back in for 2nd/3rd surgeries and I know some stallions that are up to 4 surgeries. However the vast majority of horses survive, go home within a few days and never look back. The other interesting thing is post-op management - over there, unless the horse had a problem with the wound e.g. infection, then they would be turned out from a few days post-op, initially for 1 hour at a time and building up from there. Standard post-op instructions were 2 weeks box rest or small paddock rest (1/4 acre size), 4 weeks slightly bigger paddock rest on their own (+/- foal), 4 weeks paddock rest with a friend then back into main herd. They don't like to properly box rest unless they have to because for the broodmares it's not good for the foal at foot. If I had one of my own operated on this is what I would do as long as their incision was ok.


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## ycbm (2 February 2016)

Your definition of 'the vast majority' is not the same as mine, Murphy88. Two in three is certainly  a significant majority, and it's twice as many as die, but for me, one in three not surviving to one year is not the same as saying the vast majority survive.

I absolutely agree that this is the owners choice, guided by their vet. There is no wrong and right on this one.


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## luckyoldme (2 February 2016)

JenJ said:



			Haven't read most of the posts - still too raw - but have glanced at some, and just wanted to thank all that have posted saying 'no'.

Mine colicked last November, I'd always sworn never to do surgery, but my resolve was severely tested that day. I was called back to the hospital later that day, having been told we'd give her 48 hours to see if she 'fixed' with medicine, and by the time I got there I think she was beyond help and I let her go. But I have still got that little voice saying 'what if I'd just said yes to surgery'. Reading these has helped ease my 'guilt', so thank you all x
		
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my horse is in his twenties, i have allready decided that if it comes down to an operation I will call it a day.
I think its really easy to say that now  i really hope im not faced with the same descision as you, and if it comes to it i hope i have the courage to see it through. Just because its the right thing to do ..it doesn t make it easier.
guilt is a pain in the backside, sticking its nose in where its got no business going.


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## Enfys (2 February 2016)

Murphy88 said:



			I have seen hundreds of horses operated on for colic at my previous job in Kentucky; ... The other interesting thing is post-op management - over there, unless the horse had a problem with the wound e.g. infection, then they would be turned out from a few days post-op, initially for 1 hour at a time and building up from there. Standard post-op instructions were 2 weeks box rest or small paddock rest (1/4 acre size), 4 weeks slightly bigger paddock rest on their own (+/- foal), 4 weeks paddock rest with a friend then back into main herd. They don't like to properly box rest unless they have to because for the broodmares it's not good for the foal at foot. If I had one of my own operated on this is what I would do as long as their incision was ok.
		
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This is interesting to read a vets side of things thank you.  I have been working out the time line with my mare, as I remember we had her out and picking at grass very soon,  then gradual built up to turn out,  she was already on a year out for a blown tendon anyway.  Rossdales, told us, and I remember being horrified at the time, to get her out to grass, then put her in foal. She was covered in the May,  5 months after her op.i didn't bring her back into work until the colt was 6 months old, so she had almost 2 years off after her op.


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## Murphy88 (2 February 2016)

YCBM - at the hospital I was at I would say the percentages were significantly better than 2/3, but that is a product of working in a place where the majority of horses come from within a 30 minute radius and having extremely knowledgable farm staff who know when to wait for the farm vet to get there, and when to just put the horse on the trailer and get it to surgery. The guys out there who have managed broodmares for a long time know what's surgical and what they might be able to manage medically. Unfortunately living over here, the majority of us (myself included), have got at least an hours journey to a surgical facility and this is a major factor in survival. This is why if surgery is an option, that vets will push to refer early, because each extra visit prior to referral is a lower chance of success.

Enfys - broodmares are a tough bunch, most I saw were at some stage of pregnancy and if not then were covered shortly after surgery. I have done 15 day preg checks on mares that have been operated on days earlier and they go on to have normal foals!


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## ArcticFox (2 February 2016)

would you put through surgery?  there is no right or wrong answer. its personal preference.  However what people decide to do is their opinion.  

there are many different types of colic,  some that can be diagnosed before going to theatre to give you a rough idea of what they think they will find. Ultimately to find out if you would opt for surgery isn't a question you can answer until you are faced with a horse standing in front of you colicing.  

My 7yo horse had a dorsal entrapment in 2013, he was going to go for surgery but his medical management fixed him.  he hasn't colic'd since, however he is a walking disaster (has had spavin, broken tooth, sliced heel, cellulitis, septic hock since then) so if he did colic again and needed surgery I would not put him through it.  

My other horse is on loan, he is 21yo, I suspect if he colic'd he would not go for surgery but that is a discussion I would have with his owners. 

My 10yo horse - if he colic'd I would take him through to be worked up. depending on what they find or are suspicious of, I would make a decision then.  He is insured, would cope with box rest really well, and I would put him through surgery if it felt right to do so.  

I don't think anyone should beat themselves up for whatever decision they make with their horses. It is your horse and your decision and no one should judge anyone for it.


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## Deseado (2 February 2016)

Would I? No. Have I? Yes, and that's why I now say no. I've cared for 3 horses post colic surgery, 1 made it; 2 did not (1 was my own). It's not the survival odds that put me off, it's the traumatic recovery that is, I feel unfair. 

And I very much give a **** about these horses.


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## oldie48 (4 February 2016)

I was away in NZ for a month last year leaving my 2 horses and 2 dogs to be cared for by other people. I was worried that something might happen to one of them whilst I was away and was also aware that it might be difficult to contact me in an emergency so I wrote my wishes down. It was a very useful thing to do as none are insured (but I am able and willing to pay vet's costs) and it made me think very hard about what was acceptable to me and what was not, what injuries or illnesses I would wish to treat and which I wouldn't. I decided I wouldn't go for colic surgery with the old boy and it was a very easy decision. It was very difficult to decide for Mr B, he's in his early teens and is a fit and otherwise healthy horse, would be a good patient (I think) but is quite large. My vets is an excellent equine practice/equine hospital and is very near and I have good facilities for a recovering horse, so I eventually decided I'd agree to colic surgery if needed. It is a decision I'll revisit as things change. I hope I never have to make that decision and it may change as he gets older but at least I've thought about it in some detail.


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## Orangehorse (4 February 2016)

I have recently stopped paying insurance on my 18 year old and I did think about it quite hard, as I realised that most of the reason I paid was in case he develop colic or other traumatic condition, but I thought £600 a year was a bit much for a horse that they have already paid out smallish claims on leg problems, and wouldn't pay out for anything like that again.

I could afford it, but he is a real whimp, a fighter he is not, and I have the memory of when he was on box rest with his leg injury, which was a complete nightmare and dangerous for him and me.  I have heard both good stories and bad from colic surgery, and I wouldn't rule it out completely, but the trouble is that you are in shock and in an emotional state when it occurs and would be hard to think straight.

I think the vets underestimate the care and time needed afterwards, they think a successful operaton is where the horse is alive and standing after surgery and has gone home, but some horses can't stand to be confined.


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## Slightlyconfused (5 February 2016)

pepsimaxrock said:



			I did, and I would certainly consider it again, despite a difficult and uncertain recovery which is ongoing.  
We are nearly 6 months from surgery and my mare has had vets consider PTS 5 times.  Each time the vet has pulled back from recommending it despite initially suggesting it to me. 
I find anyone who posts "I wouldn't put one of my horses through it"  has either not considered it properly, isnt insured and cant afford it, or doesnt care for his/her horses enough.  
This decision takes extraordinarily careful consideration.  My dear little mare is now being worked, will start canter this week, is still on steroids and may not yet make a full recovery, if any recovery at all.  But she has never (apart from when colicking) been unhappy or miserable and is enjoying life. So it is good we have come this far.
It actually angers me when holier than thou folks say they would never put their horses through it.  Because I dont think they have properly considered it or the alternatives, or they dont give a s***
		
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The reason why I won't put mine through it is watching two separate horses.go through its and not live a year after.

On the other hand a friends horse who had it is still going strong. 

But my personal preference is that I will not put them through that and the very difficult recovery after. There are some things in my own opinion that horses should not be put through.


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## Valar Morghulis (5 February 2016)

I wouldn't put any of mine through it but a friend did have colic surgery on her horse and he came through it well. He was a big, lazy horse who was quite happy to do the box rest in a box where the other horses could all come and chat to him and he had lots of forage to eat. Most horses would have hated the confinement or been hard to handle but he was very placid and it worked well. 

Have to say that the reason he colicked was because he was so fat that he developed a huge lipoma which strangled his gut so I would say its worth making very sure that your horse doesn't get too fat. Of course there are other causes of colic which are unavoidable but its sensible to mitigate the ones you can.


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## lme (6 February 2016)

Really well timed thread as our uninsured 18yo NF pony had colic surgery this afternoon. At the time, you may not have a lot of time to consider options. We didn't. It was surgery this afternoon or PTS. Latest report from the vet hospital is that she came through the op fine and is standing, so fingers crossed. She is just a field ornament, but one who taught my children to ride and who has been part of our family for 12 years.  I am hoping that as a small, food orientated pony, she won't find box rest during the worst bit of the winter too stressful.


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## Endrete (6 February 2016)

I did because she had a four day old foal at foot. It has got to be one of the most stressful experiences and she was not a great candidate due to hating vets and needles with a passion! A late night trip to vets and a three o'clock in the morning phonecall to make a decision. As it turned out she didn't have 'normal' colic, it was biopsied and treated with steroids. The vets had me calling for a foster mare as they were convinced she would die as her guts were (and I quote) 'like jelly'. I defied them with her recovery as refused to keep her and a tiny, rocket fueled foal on strict box rest for 12 weeks. So walked her out in hand twice a day. She was amazing, she dug through the hedges for the first two weeks to find the herbs and plants she wanted. Then she would just graze. The whole thing had to be the most stressful experience. And in terms of behaviour, I don't think she will ever fully recover. I swear she was PTSD when a vet appears...


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## Wundahorse (9 February 2016)

I have already made an advanced decision not to put my WB ( who is retired through joint problems ) or my Section D aged 21 through colic surgery after deciding I do not want to put them through it. Have seen and heard too many cases where the complications cause more agony. The technology is available for all kinds of surgery, however, the recovery is not always easy or straightforward. Unlike human surgery,horses cannot rest in the same way. 
I know there are success stories which is great to hear. I just wish to make an informed choice while I am thinking rationally. 
Neither of my horses are insured now as my WB maxed the insurance in the last year and is barely covered for anything


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## Enfys (9 February 2016)

lme said:



			Really well timed thread as our uninsured 18yo NF pony had colic surgery this afternoon. At the time, you may not have a lot of time to consider options. We didn't. It was surgery this afternoon or PTS. Latest report from the vet hospital is that she came through the op fine and is standing, so fingers crossed. She is just a field ornament, but one who taught my children to ride and who has been part of our family for 12 years.  I am hoping that as a small, food orientated pony, she won't find box rest during the worst bit of the winter too stressful.
		
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How is she doing? Here's hoping for a timely and incident free recovery.


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## Celtic Fringe (10 February 2016)

One of ours had surgery and pulled through quickly and very successfully. It turned out that he had a fatty tumour (pedunculate lipoma) on his colon and so was not a 'normal' colic. As others have said it is incredibly stressful and you don't get a lot of time to consider the options. The choice was PTS or surgery IMMEDIATELY. In our case the horse had no history of gastro-intestinal issues at all so surgery seemed a reasonable option. At the time we were insured - the final bill was over £3k. I no longer insure the horses but set money aside and would make the same call again. However, if old cob ever has colic I will PTS as he will not tolerate being in a stable and at 30 years of age it would not be fair to put him in that situation.


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## Dolsey1 (10 February 2016)

I lost one to colic fairly soon after the surgery due to peritonitis. I wouldn't put another horse through it knowing now how much she suffered in recovery and didn't pull through anyway. I also don't think I could cope with the stress of the aftercare, potential recurring episodes, etc.


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## Fiona (10 February 2016)

Ours are all either middle aged or elderly now (14, 17 and 21) so I have to say that if I had to make the decision I would probably say no to surgery..

WHen my welshie got colic in his 20's a few years ago we didn't even consider surgery as an option, and the vet (v senior) didn't even suggest it as an option.

We would have to travel a considerable distance here in NI though, which may have bearing on my decision....

Fiona


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## Paint Me Proud (10 February 2016)

I had one have colic surgery (of which the cause was found to be scar tissue from gelding strangling the small colon) at age 4 and he made an absolutely textbook recovery no problems at all. Returned to work after 6 months and carried on as if nothing had happened. He never had any issues with colic for the next 4 years before he was sadly pts due to kissing spine.

In total the operation etc cost £6k and I had to pay £1k of that in excess to the insurance company.

I would consider colic surgery as an option again in the future.


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