# My horse was sound, got shod, and is now crippled....



## Michen (20 January 2015)

And I just don't know what to do. He's 2.5 months off the track and was shod 3 weeks after I got him by my very, very good farrier (really is the best in the area and I persevered like mad to get onto his list- he did a grand job with my last horse). Horse is flat footed and needed a lot of work doing. He was a little footy after he was shod 7 weeks ago, only lasted 24 hours or so.

This time he lost a front shoe on sunday eve (9 days ago). Farrier came Monday morning as was booked anyway, and the horse was in his stable having walked in from the field (across 100metres of stoney ish track) to get to stable. He was a bit ouchy without it but that's to be expected. Anyway so horse was shod, farrier again said to expect a little footiness so I gave him danilon for 24 hours and he was okay. By Wednesday (no more danilon in system) the horse was pottery and very lame on a circle. Farrier back out that day and found a bruise, put special aluminium shoes on which have a sort of woodeny bit in between hoof and shoe for extra protection. Horse seemed immediately a bit better. Next day, horse absolutely crippled. I mean he looked like he had foundered- that bad. Improved the more he's walked. 

I called farrier and asked him to come and remove the shoes. I couldn't be there but he rang me after and said he didn't want to take them off as he really thought it would worsen the situation. He said to danilon for a few more days and re assess Monday. Did that, horse improved (but by no means sound), stopped the danilon sunday and now he's pretty bad again. 

I just don't know what to do. I 100% trust my farrier but I'm terrified there is a nasty underlying issue here. A few things which are niggling away are; the horse trips a fair amount, he's a little back at the knee, after work his legs sometimes "shake" and he stands sort of over the knee (only after work), a stable lad who knew him from a couple of years ago said he was a sound horse but could sometimes look "pottery" coming out of the stable. 

Equally its very feasible that my farrier got a bit too eager in altering his hoof, or cut his toe back too far too soon. The horses front feet are both quite a bit warmer than the backs, but no digital pulse. 

Worth mentioning is that this horse has an insanely low pain threshold. Slightest wound sets him off. 

Any ideas anyone as to what I should do? I don't want to re start him on the danilon as I want to be able to see a true picture of how he is and he's perfectly happy in himself. I'm worried about the niggling things I mentioned earlier... has anyone got any thoughts on what they could be? 

Or anyone experienced something like this....

I'm torn between trusting my farrier and knowing he's fab, but wondering whether I really agree that a horse should be shod and "expected" to be a little footy. Don't see why the changes have to be made so quickly he gets sore. Equally I'm terrified he's got something really wrong and its been set off by the shoeing somehow.

ARGH!!! He's such a lovely little lad and I want the absolute best for him but I'm not sure whether I should be getting the vet out and x raying or giving it more time. He was shod on the 12th... so 9 days later and he's still sore...


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## be positive (20 January 2015)

It sounds as if there is something going on that has been there for some time, a sound horse should not pull out pottery and that was a couple of years ago he will have done plenty of work since then if he stayed in training. 

If he was mine I would probably give him a break and turn him away so he can let down from racing, have the shoes off and let any niggles either show up properly so they can be looked at or if lucky having a real break may give it all a chance to settle, the wobbly legs sound as if they could do with a rest. 

If you want to continue then I think you do need a vet to see what is going on, the farrier can only do his job well if the feet are healthy, if there is an issue inside then it will require correct care to deal with it but you may need a lot of investigations to get to the bottom of it, it is possibly longstanding due to his conformation and being continually worked hard.


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## Meowy Catkin (20 January 2015)

No horse should be less sound after shoeing than it was beforehand.


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## Michen (20 January 2015)

be positive said:



			It sounds as if there is something going on that has been there for some time, a sound horse should not pull out pottery and that was a couple of years ago he will have done plenty of work since then if he stayed in training. 

If he was mine I would probably give him a break and turn him away so he can let down from racing, have the shoes off and let any niggles either show up properly so they can be looked at or if lucky having a real break may give it all a chance to settle, the wobbly legs sound as if they could do with a rest. 

If you want to continue then I think you do need a vet to see what is going on, the farrier can only do his job well if the feet are healthy, if there is an issue inside then it will require correct care to deal with it but you may need a lot of investigations to get to the bottom of it, it is possibly longstanding due to his conformation and being continually worked hard.
		
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Hmmm this is what I'm afraid of. He's essentially been turned away for 2.5 months, he's been doing a very very small amount of basic groundwork but no ridden. 

I just don't see how he has been shod fine for the last 5 years (spoken to all three trainers) and then my farrier tries to change stuff and this happens...


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## Andalucian (20 January 2015)

Michen said:



			I just don't see how he has been shod fine for the last 5 years (spoken to all three trainers) and then my farrier tries to change stuff and this happens...
		
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Really? you've just pinpointed the problem my dear. Re-read this sentence.


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## SusieT (20 January 2015)

VET your farrier shouldn't be recommending danilon - horse is lame, not improving, get a vet.


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## _HP_ (21 January 2015)

This is a job for your vet...

What are you feeding him? Has it changed since you've had him? I would feed to a high fibre, low cereal diet and treat him as a laminitic . Have you checked his pulse. It's not just fat ponies that get laminitis. My tb was very sensitive to grass and would go footy very easily. 
I would be tempted whip off his shoes and get some boots and pads to keep him comfortable
No horse should ever be sore after being shod.


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## Goldenstar (21 January 2015)

SusieT said:



			VET your farrier shouldn't be recommending danilon - horse is lame, not improving, get a vet.
		
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I agree you need to get the vet involved .
A farrier should not be telling you medicate a horse without  imput from the vet unless you dealing with a long term issue where the vet has left you pain relief to use as needed .
This would be a huge alarm bells about this farrier for me it's an unprofessional and dangerous approach.
You need the vet to assess what's going on, you also need the to be a good equine vet .I assume the horse passed the vet before it arrived if it was not vetted I would be very worried .


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## Scarlett (21 January 2015)

But if someone has been saying that he could be 'pottery' after shoeing then he HASNT been fine the last 5 years.

It's not acceptable for a horse to be less sound after shoeing or trimming, nor to expect a horse to need bute.

It sounds like you have a long standing problem that you need a vet to address ASAP. Do you have any pics of the feet?


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

_HP_ said:



			This is a job for your vet...

What are you feeding him? Has it changed since you've had him? I would feed to a high fibre, low cereal diet and treat him as a laminitic . Have you checked his pulse. It's not just fat ponies that get laminitis. My tb was very sensitive to grass and would go footy very easily. 
I would be tempted whip off his shoes and get some boots and pads to keep him comfortable
No horse should ever be sore after being shod.
		
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UPDATE all. So I did some digging last night and spoke to the wife of the trainer he was with a year ago. She said they never used to let the farrier apprentice's shoe him as if you cut back too much of the toe he would always go very footy, so he was always done by the guy himself (my farrier shod him- not the apprentices). She said once they had figured that out and the farrier knew how to shoe him he was fine. The same farrier shod him at his next yard, where I bought him from, and they never had any problems so that does make sense.

He's a lot better today actually, though his front feet are still slightly warm he's walking out nicely. My farrier is coming back this afternoon to have another look at him. 

I still think that all sounds a little bit odd, but it does tie in with the fact the horse does have a very low pain threshold anyway so not completely impossible. 

_HP_ He's fed a very low starch low sugar diet anyway, I weaned him off his racing mix in 10 days and he's on healthy tummy and Saracen super fibre pencils with a little bit of sugar beet. He has no pulse.


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I agree you need to get the vet involved .
A farrier should not be telling you medicate a horse without  imput from the vet unless you dealing with a long term issue where the vet has left you pain relief to use as needed .
This would be a huge alarm bells about this farrier for me it's an unprofessional and dangerous approach.
You need the vet to assess what's going on, you also need the to be a good equine vet .I assume the horse passed the vet before it arrived if it was not vetted I would be very worried .
		
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No, the horse was not vetted. He was £200, it wouldn't have been worth it at all. At that price you cut your losses if something goes wrong and do the right thing (which in the case of a little ex racehorse, I hasten to add, would be to have him put down if he was not going to remain sound- I do not agree with thoroughbreds being past on as bloomin companions!).


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

Andalucian said:



			Really? you've just pinpointed the problem my dear. Re-read this sentence.
		
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Forgive me if I have interpreted this the wrong way, but your comment sounds a little patronising  

Re reading that sentence I could actually see it in two different ways.

1) He hasn't actually been shod fine for the last 5 years, and he's been "broken" for a while but there's been some dishonesty
2) My farrier has totally messed up and shod him too tight, or pricked him, or cut his toe back too much etc etc.

Following on from what I heard last night (see above post) I am suspecting the latter.


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

Scarlett said:



			But if someone has been saying that he could be 'pottery' after shoeing then he HASNT been fine the last 5 years.

It's not acceptable for a horse to be less sound after shoeing or trimming, nor to expect a horse to need bute.

It sounds like you have a long standing problem that you need a vet to address ASAP. Do you have any pics of the feet?
		
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Hi Scarlett,

The lad said he could sometimes be pottery coming out of his stable, not necessarily after shoeing. However all 3 trainers have said that's utter rubbish, so not sure what to think there. No pictures of his feet I'm afraid, but here's a couple of him so you can see what I mean re confirmation.

Bless him, he's not put together particularly well, but I tell you what- he rides amazingly. He's not in work at the moment but I hopped on him when he arrived and this was his first ever time in the school. [video=youtube;HJcunZZaolg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJcunZZaolg[/video]On the forehand yes but that's an exceptionally lovely canter for a horse straight out of training- in my humble opinion anyway  He's also an absolutely poppet in every other way, I was abroad for two weeks over Christmas and came back and thought sod it- I'll hop on him and take him round the block. Bareback, in a headcollar, less than two  months out of training and hadn't been worked for weeks- didn't put a foot wrong. Such a genuine chap. Anyway- I'm blabbing now! But needless to say the right thing will be done for the horse whatever the outcome.


This was him yesterday.


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## BethH (21 January 2015)

Just want to make a small comment that when you said his legs shake sometimes it jumped out at me.  I've owned my horse 11yrs so know him pretty well. I changed farrier who shod him differently and it caused utter devastation.  I wonder if he has tried to change too much of the foot balance too quickly.  When my horses leg started shaking I got the shoes off quick and realised my new superb master farrier had allowed the heels to run forward and he had started to land toe 1st, I asked him to support the heels which he had chopped off and he overdid by setting the shoe back too far and crippled my poor boy.  Video your horse walking in the school and slow it down to have a look at the action of the footfall - it just sounds wrong that his leg is doing that, forgive me if I have misunderstood.  Your farrier may be brilliant but he maybe trying to change things too quickly.  By the way my new farrier was a master farrier who sits on the FRC.  I don't think he is great anymore and certainly would never allow those he has trained to ever touch my horse again.  I think you need to go investigate the shoeing - if worse come to worse an xray might clarify how the feet are doing but you may need to ask your farrier to go a bit more slowly - just because other horse cope doesn't mean yours can and if he is still not right take vet advice not the farriers as imho they try to cover their own backs by justifying what they have done.  My post isn't meant to be provocative just from bitter & expensive experience.  Good luck - I hope you find a simple explanation


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

BethH said:



			Just want to make a small comment that when you said his legs shake sometimes it jumped out at me.  I've owned my horse 11yrs so know him pretty well. I changed farrier who shod him differently and it caused utter devastation.  I wonder if he has tried to change too much of the foot balance too quickly.  When my horses leg started shaking I got the shoes off quick and realised my new superb master farrier had allowed the heels to run forward and he had started to land toe 1st, I asked him to support the heels which he had chopped off and he overdid by setting the shoe back too far and crippled my poor boy.  Video your horse walking in the school and slow it down to have a look at the action of the footfall - it just sounds wrong that his leg is doing that, forgive me if I have misunderstood.  Your farrier may be brilliant but he maybe trying to change things too quickly.  By the way my new farrier was a master farrier who sits on the FRC.  I don't think he is great anymore and certainly would never allow those he has trained to ever touch my horse again.  I think you need to go investigate the shoeing - if worse come to worse an xray might clarify how the feet are doing but you may need to ask your farrier to go a bit more slowly - just because other horse cope doesn't mean yours can and if he is still not right take vet advice not the farriers as imho they try to cover their own backs by justifying what they have done.  My post isn't meant to be provocative just from bitter & expensive experience.  Good luck - I hope you find a simple explanation
		
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This is the exact conversation I'll be having with my farrier this afternoon. I know he will be trying to do his absolute best for the horse but I think he's done too much here. Re the leg shaking, he's done that a bit since I had him and one of his old trainers said he used to do it a bit after a hard gallop- and they put it down to him being a bit "over at the knee". Which is odd as I think he looks back at the knee if anything! I'm not going to stress too much about the leg shaking as it isn't a regular thing and he's certainly not lame (until this happened!). We shall see....


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## fatpiggy (21 January 2015)

I'm also wondering if the OP's super duper farrier has gone at it all too hard and too fast.  A horse I knew, worst legs and tiniest feet you ever saw (17.2hh warmblood with the hooves of a 13hh fine pony) had some work done to try to square up the fronts as he was also pigeon-toed.  He was well into his teens at the time and within hours interesting lumps appeared on the legs.  The farrier said that any more correction and he would be permanently damaged so they went back to shoeing him the way his legs were used to and the lumps disappeared straight away.  The OPs horse can probably take the changes but they MUST be done slowly and over several shoeing cycles.

He does look a lovely boy and I'm quite sure the OP realises that with his problems, the quieter life is what is right for him.   Lucky boy!


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## Palindrome (21 January 2015)

It sounds like it's either over trimming or perhaps an abscess brewing. His feet don't look very good and he is standing very straight behind. I think you would get some benefits by pulling the shoes and manage him barefoot. Not sure what you are feeding but as he is out of racing and not carrying lots of condition I would put him on a supplement to support the gut as well (something like Protexin acid ease perhaps?).


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

fatpiggy said:



			I'm also wondering if the OP's super duper farrier has gone at it all too hard and too fast.  A horse I knew, worst legs and tiniest feet you ever saw (17.2hh warmblood with the hooves of a 13hh fine pony) had some work done to try to square up the fronts as he was also pigeon-toed.  He was well into his teens at the time and within hours interesting lumps appeared on the legs.  The farrier said that any more correction and he would be permanently damaged so they went back to shoeing him the way his legs were used to and the lumps disappeared straight away.  The OPs horse can probably take the changes but they MUST be done slowly and over several shoeing cycles.

He does look a lovely boy and I'm quite sure the OP realises that with his problems, the quieter life is what is right for him.   Lucky boy!
		
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I agree, I think that's exactly what's happened here. I also think that maybe most horses would be fine with the changes he made, but mine does seem to be exceptionally sensitive. 

With regards to his "problems", I am not going to write him off simply due to a comment from one stable lad, this, and his legs shaking occasionally after work when stood still. I have never seen him walk out of the stable pottery (until now- obviously!). Doesn't necessarily mean he needs a life as a companion or light hack- I've got a friend with an intermediate eventer that has spavin and a hole in his collateral ligament, he's a fantastic horse. This little chap will not be written off based on the information I have at the moment, but you can bet he will have the absolute best done by him


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

Palindrome said:



			It sounds like it's either over trimming or perhaps an abscess brewing. His feet don't look very good and he is standing very straight behind. I think you would get some benefits by pulling the shoes and manage him barefoot. Not sure what you are feeding but as he is out of racing and not carrying lots of condition I would put him on a supplement to support the gut as well (something like Protexin acid ease perhaps?).
		
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Indeed he's on healthy tummy (protexin in it), Saracen super fibre pencils, speedibeet and feedmark Gastric Comfort.


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## BethH (21 January 2015)

Would be interesting to see a close up of the feet especially the fronts. There is something about the way he is putting weight through them that makes me think he is a little uncomfortable but there are many others on here who are better informed and could make suggestions - I am quite likely to have this wrong, it may just be the photo but it is an odd stance.  He looks extremely sweet and well worth the effort to help by the way!


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

BethH said:



			Would be interesting to see a close up of the feet especially the fronts. There is something about the way he is putting weight through them that makes me think he is a little uncomfortable but there are many others on here who are better informed and could make suggestions - I am quite likely to have this wrong, it may just be the photo but it is an odd stance.  He looks extremely sweet and well worth the effort to help by the way!
		
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Hiya Beth,

Probably should have made it clearer, this is from yesterday when he was still really very sore so he is standing a bit back on his heels. He was pottery and sore and very uncomfortable turning so he's not likely to be standing very well either. I'll get some foot pics later today, he's a huge amount happier today- thank god. He re confirmed this when he leapt all four feet off the ground on the way to the field and fly bucked and squealed at the end of the leadrope. Cheeky ******!


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## BethH (21 January 2015)

Great news - you said exactly what I thought, he looks like he is rocking back a bit onto his heels.  Just check too that he hasn't bruised those too as that really will make him land toe 1st!!  Glad he is looking brighter - let's hope it's onwards and upwards for you both.


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

And that's a massive improvement from the day before where he quite literally looked like he had foundered. I hope so too! Thanks for your help


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## Scarlett (21 January 2015)

Michen said:



			Indeed he's on healthy tummy (protexin in it), Saracen super fibre pencils, speedibeet and feedmark Gastric Comfort.
		
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From a hoof point of view that's not the greatest of diets - I'm pretty sure the fibre pencils are quite high starch and healthy tummy is full of sugar coated alfalfa, I'm not surprised he's footsore tbh.

He looks super cute in the vids but I must agree with the poster who said that he's not stood right. He just looks held in front and typical of a horse with sore front feet.

OP I say with as the owner of 4 exracers, all of whom now are barefoot after my 'wonderful' farriers best attempts to damage them permanently. For years I was told it was ok for 2 of them to be a bit sore after shoeing, and that they just all had 'typical TB feet'. What I actually had was horses who needed help. Vet confirmed navicular in one caused by poor shoeing, looked at the others feet and basically told me he was sure he'd find the same if we xrayed them. I pulled shoes off them all, read as much as I could on going barefoot and over 3 years later they are all still in work, have never been reshod and all have massively improved feet.

I know folk think barefoot is a fad but, having been in your situation, there is a hell of a lot to it that can benefit the long term soundness of our horses, especially the exracers who have feet that have been damaged by shoeing young and racing diets. Does he have long toes, under run heels, thin soles and weak frogs....? That's not healthy and it can be changed...

Google Rockley Farm, read the blog...


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

Scarlett said:



			From a hoof point of view that's not the greatest of diets - I'm pretty sure the fibre pencils are quite high starch and healthy tummy is full of sugar coated alfalfa, I'm not surprised he's footsore tbh.

He looks super cute in the vids but I must agree with the poster who said that he's not stood right. He just looks held in front and typical of a horse with sore front feet.

OP I say with as the owner of 4 exracers, all of whom now are barefoot after my 'wonderful' farriers best attempts to damage them permanently. For years I was told it was ok for 2 of them to be a bit sore after shoeing, and that they just all had 'typical TB feet'. What I actually had was horses who needed help. Vet confirmed navicular in one caused by poor shoeing, looked at the others feet and basically told me he was sure he'd find the same if we xrayed them. I pulled shoes off them all, read as much as I could on going barefoot and over 3 years later they are all still in work, have never been reshod and all have massively improved feet.

I know folk think barefoot is a fad but, having been in your situation, there is a hell of a lot to it that can benefit the long term soundness of our horses, especially the exracers who have feet that have been damaged by shoeing young and racing diets. Does he have long toes, under run heels, thin soles and weak frogs....? That's not healthy and it can be changed...

Google Rockley Farm, read the blog...
		
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Sorry I don't want to sound frustrated but, I did say the photos were yesterday so of course he's going to look sore- he is sore! 

Interesting what you say about the sugars in Healthy Tummy, at 4.5% this is hardly high? Heroes, Greatwood and my vet all promote it hugely so I'm surprised to hear you say that's high. Super fibre pencils are 10% starch which is generally considered okay for a horse with possible ulcers- and he's looking a lot better condition wise since he's been on them. I have to say I am looking into Pure Feeds, as they are very low in starch and sugar (sugars at 3.9%). Horses are designed to digest a certain amount of sugar- though certainly not the excessive amounts found in some cereals. 

I know of Rockley having had a friend said a navicular horse there to be rehabbed. I'm not ruling out the idea of barefoot at all but Rockley is hugely expensive and I don't have the facilities here to rehab him myself. 

He's foot sore since the shoeing, not foot sore in general, so I'm not really convinced his diet is a contributing factor as I would imagine he would be footy all the time. 

I'll get some pics for you later and see what you think


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

Scarlett said:



			From a hoof point of view that's not the greatest of diets - I'm pretty sure the fibre pencils are quite high starch and healthy tummy is full of sugar coated alfalfa, I'm not surprised he's footsore tbh.

He looks super cute in the vids but I must agree with the poster who said that he's not stood right. He just looks held in front and typical of a horse with sore front feet.

OP I say with as the owner of 4 exracers, all of whom now are barefoot after my 'wonderful' farriers best attempts to damage them permanently. For years I was told it was ok for 2 of them to be a bit sore after shoeing, and that they just all had 'typical TB feet'. What I actually had was horses who needed help. Vet confirmed navicular in one caused by poor shoeing, looked at the others feet and basically told me he was sure he'd find the same if we xrayed them. I pulled shoes off them all, read as much as I could on going barefoot and over 3 years later they are all still in work, have never been reshod and all have massively improved feet.

I know folk think barefoot is a fad but, having been in your situation, there is a hell of a lot to it that can benefit the long term soundness of our horses, especially the exracers who have feet that have been damaged by shoeing young and racing diets. Does he have long toes, under run heels, thin soles and weak frogs....? That's not healthy and it can be changed...

Google Rockley Farm, read the blog...
		
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Forgot to ask Scarlett, did you start them off with boots for hacking?


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## Goldenstar (21 January 2015)

I took my TB BF for eighteen months , I think it probably saved his life .
You don't need lots of special facilities ( although clearly it's easier at Rockley ) it's about time daily effort from the owner,  and getting the diet spot on , and owner being prepared to take time out from doing what they what because for a while you need to match work to the level the feet can withstand .


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## Scarlett (21 January 2015)

Michen said:



			Sorry I don't want to sound frustrated but, I did say the photos were yesterday so of course he's going to look sore- he is sore! 

Interesting what you say about the sugars in Healthy Tummy, at 4.5% this is hardly high? Heroes, Greatwood and my vet all promote it hugely so I'm surprised to hear you say that's high. Super fibre pencils are 10% starch which is generally considered okay for a horse with possible ulcers- and he's looking a lot better condition wise since he's been on them. I have to say I am looking into Pure Feeds, as they are very low in starch and sugar (sugars at 3.9%). Horses are designed to digest a certain amount of sugar- though certainly not the excessive amounts found in some cereals. 

I know of Rockley having had a friend said a navicular horse there to be rehabbed. I'm not ruling out the idea of barefoot at all but Rockley is hugely expensive and I don't have the facilities here to rehab him myself. 

He's foot sore since the shoeing, not foot sore in general, so I'm not really convinced his diet is a contributing factor as I would imagine he would be footy all the time. 

I'll get some pics for you later and see what you think 

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I stand corrected - It's Healthy Hooves (?) that is coated in sugar, not Healthy Tummy. Fibre Pencils are still not my idea of a good feed, sorry, molasses, wheat feed etc do not make up a good cube in my book and since moving from feeding that sort of stuff my horses hooves all improved massively. I had no idea the effect of commercial feed on feet until I changed it. Also alfalfa instantly makes my horses footy and it seems to be something that's quite common in barefoot horses so it's often avoided as a feed.

Horses are designed to digest some sugars. yes, but those naturally occurring in grasses etc, not molasses... just like people cope with sugars in fruits better than those in processed foods.

What facilities do you need? Only a tiny percentage of the horses who go barefoot in the UK go to Rockley, the rest are done at home.

If he looses a shoe is he footsore without it?

Pics would be great 

Re Boots, I did buy some and they did help. I was feeding a good diet first so didn't have a huge issue with removing shoes except with the one who was getting afalfa and who had shoes removed and was trimmed by the farrier, he was lame for weeks and lived in boots initially. I would certainly recommend having a pair, I rarely use them now but when I do I'm very glad to have them!

I'm really not trying to be awkward, I just wish someone had told me al this when I started seeing problems. You're little horse sounds like my mare and in hindsight I had problems 2 years before her diagnosis that I did nothing about other than trust my farrier. I could have saved myself a lot of heartache if I'd had access to the right info.


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## Andalucian (21 January 2015)

Hi, sorry not meaning to patronise, just seemed clear to me that a different approach to his foot balance by your farrier is the most likely cause, how ever well meaning and "correct" it may have been.  Given your further posts, I would urge your farrier and the previous farrier to discuss him and for the former's experience of what works for him to be passed on.....good for all concerned.


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## Meowy Catkin (21 January 2015)

Cutting molasses from their diet made a huge difference to all of my horses' horn quality. All I did was swap from a molassed chaff to a non molassed one and all had event lines from the change with much better horn above the event line.

When my anglo had her shoes removed due to hoof balance issues that were getting worse in shoes (long toes, under-run heels), I was relieved that she never missed a step on most surfaces. I did start off walking her in-hand and then progressed to riding, but she was always fine on tarmac, in the school and in the field. I would have bought boots if she needed them though.

This video is well worth watching (everyone with horses should watch it IMO ).

http://www.thehorse.com/videos/34609/is-the-hoof-smart-adaptability-of-the-equine-foot


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

Scarlett said:



			I stand corrected - It's Healthy Hooves (?) that is coated in sugar, not Healthy Tummy. Fibre Pencils are still not my idea of a good feed, sorry, molasses, wheat feed etc do not make up a good cube in my book and since moving from feeding that sort of stuff my horses hooves all improved massively. I had no idea the effect of commercial feed on feet until I changed it. Also alfalfa instantly makes my horses footy and it seems to be something that's quite common in barefoot horses so it's often avoided as a feed.

Horses are designed to digest some sugars. yes, but those naturally occurring in grasses etc, not molasses... just like people cope with sugars in fruits better than those in processed foods.

What facilities do you need? Only a tiny percentage of the horses who go barefoot in the UK go to Rockley, the rest are done at home.

If he looses a shoe is he footsore without it?

Pics would be great 

Re Boots, I did buy some and they did help. I was feeding a good diet first so didn't have a huge issue with removing shoes except with the one who was getting afalfa and who had shoes removed and was trimmed by the farrier, he was lame for weeks and lived in boots initially. I would certainly recommend having a pair, I rarely use them now but when I do I'm very glad to have them!

I'm really not trying to be awkward, I just wish someone had told me al this when I started seeing problems. You're little horse sounds like my mare and in hindsight I had problems 2 years before her diagnosis that I did nothing about other than trust my farrier. I could have saved myself a lot of heartache if I'd had access to the right info.
		
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Fab thanks for the advice, I'll look into those super fibre pencils then. I was so close to switching to pure feeds but my vet recommended alfalfa as he likely has mild ulcers (a few warning signs but nothing awful- he's being scoped in a few weeks if they continue). 

When he lost the shoe in the field he quite literally held his leg up in the air as if it had been chopped off. He walked in to the stable as if he was treading on a path of nails!!!!! He really is a dramatic little thing at the best of times.

I know what I'll be reading about tonight then  I assumed from the little knowledge I do have that you need to set up some sort of track system to get them walking on varying terrains of ground, but that's just things I've skimmed over in the past I have no idea how true that is. I'll have a chat with my farrier today and see what he says. Did you farrier support you or do you have a specialist barefoot trimmer?


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

Andalucian said:



			Hi, sorry not meaning to patronise, just seemed clear to me that a different approach to his foot balance by your farrier is the most likely cause, how ever well meaning and "correct" it may have been.  Given your further posts, I would urge your farrier and the previous farrier to discuss him and for the former's experience of what works for him to be passed on.....good for all concerned.
		
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No worries Andalucian. apologies for being overly sensitive! I agree, I've got his old farriers number off the trainer now so I'm going to get mine to give him a shout (though not sure how he will take this but if he's got anything about him he will do the best for my boy). 

I've never experienced a horse that automatically got so sore if a bit too much toe was taken off though,it does concern me that there's something else there. That or he is a big woose- also a possibility give the drama he's made out of various other things!


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

Faracat said:



			Cutting molasses from their diet made a huge difference to all of my horses' horn quality. All I did was swap from a molassed chaff to a non molassed one and all had event lines from the change with much better horn above the event line.

When my anglo had her shoes removed due to hoof balance issues that were getting worse in shoes (long toes, under-run heels), I was relieved that she never missed a step on most surfaces. I did start off walking her in-hand and then progressed to riding, but she was always fine on tarmac, in the school and in the field. I would have bought boots if she needed them though.

This video is well worth watching (everyone with horses should watch it IMO ).

http://www.thehorse.com/videos/34609/is-the-hoof-smart-adaptability-of-the-equine-foot

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Thanks I will watch that this eve! His healthy tummy is unmollased but I think I need to swap his Saracen super fibre pencils anyway. I did attempt to feed him on hi fi molasses free, he was FURIOUS! But he gobbles down the healthy tummy. 

High maintenance beast!


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## Meowy Catkin (21 January 2015)

Michen said:



			I assumed from the little knowledge I do have that you need to set up some sort of track system to get them walking on varying terrains of ground
		
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I use a Farrier (although not the one that caused the hoof balance issues in the first place). She had her shoes off at the normal 6 week shoeing interval, but they weren't trimmed, so were slightly long which I think helped prevent any soreness. I don't have a track, but I walked her in-hand down the lanes (just 10 mins at first, then built it up) several times a week (aimed for every day, but didn't quite manage it).


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## BethH (21 January 2015)

Hi - my horse is coming up to 2yrs barfoot in April and his feet have just over the last month or so had another massive change for the better, I really am gobsmacked how fantastic his feet are and that after nearly 2years they are still continuing to show dramatic improvements.  You can do all sorts of things to make barefoot work but from my experience, diet is key, my horse has always had a sugar free diet as he is a nutter on mix (it's the 1/4 tb in him I reckon!) so has Top Spec Top Chop as a chaff, charnwood linseed & benevit multivit with some high fibre nuts for his football.  I also give him rosehips & celery seed powder for his joints. He will get some fast fibre if he needs a little extra in the Winter.  He appears to be allergic to  pure lucerne/alfalfa and the top chop blends it with good quality straw & mint - he is a good doer so the less calories the better. The other really key thing is to use someone who understands foot balance be it farrier or trimmer.  I used a really good trimmer - mine is a DAEP qualified trimmer who has undertaken proper training.  If you look at their website you should find recommendations for your area if you go down that route.  They seem to understand so much more about how the foot works & will trim in a sympathetic way ensuring the angles are gently corrected (I hope!)  Very best of luck, let us know how you get on.


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## Scarlett (21 January 2015)

Michen said:



			Fab thanks for the advice, I'll look into those super fibre pencils then. I was so close to switching to pure feeds but my vet recommended alfalfa as he likely has mild ulcers (a few warning signs but nothing awful- he's being scoped in a few weeks if they continue). 

When he lost the shoe in the field he quite literally held his leg up in the air as if it had been chopped off. He walked in to the stable as if he was treading on a path of nails!!!!! He really is a dramatic little thing at the best of times.

I know what I'll be reading about tonight then  I assumed from the little knowledge I do have that you need to set up some sort of track system to get them walking on varying terrains of ground, but that's just things I've skimmed over in the past I have no idea how true that is. I'll have a chat with my farrier today and see what he says. Did you farrier support you or do you have a specialist barefoot trimmer?
		
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Alfalfa is high in calcium which is supposed to help settle the acid in the stomach, I read though that horses only need to have it be 20% of that food intake per day and that type of fibre (legumes?) is in grazing so they normally get as much as they need from their grass and hay intake, hence why lots of horses can't have it in a bucket feed, especially in large quantities. I have one who LOVES it but one small feed of it makes him look like is legs are falling off 

There's a barefoot theory that if your horse isn't sound out of shoes then it isn't sound. I always thought it was normal for a horse to be lame when it lost a shoe but I realise now it isn't, certainly not hopping lame. My mare had her shoes pulled once because she was being turned away, she was crippled  farrier blamed her TB feet and I reshod, 2 years later I realised that it was a big glaring sign of the problems with her feet and if I had addressed it then we might not have had the problems we had. Hindsight is always 20/20.

No tracks here. Just the right diet, a good mineral supplement, lots of movement (in boots if needed) and I got in a good, sensible trimmer (UKNHCP registered) who held my hand through the tough times. I found farriers lack the knowledge in trimming and maintaining a working hoof without shoes, it's not covered by their training. My trimmers have always been able to help with mineral balancing and diet which I've found to be an important part of the process.

My mare that I talk of had soft tissue damage as well as changes to the navicular bone. She went of and had a foal and is now back in work. I've just had to get a new saddle for her as, after all those years of what I know now was sore feet, she is now moving so much better and has bulked out considerably. She is only 12 and I'm hopeful that now I'll finally have the horse we knew she could be.


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## Scarlett (21 January 2015)

Oh, if your going to look at replacing the Fibre Pencils look at good old fashioned grass nuts and micronised linseed - the barefoot diet staple of TB owners everywhere!


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## ester (21 January 2015)

He definitely looks over at knee not back in those pics OP . 

be careful about your farrier doing much with them this afternoon, if he has done too much with them already. It does sound like he has always been on the edge of having issues with his feet and I think considering barefoot transition at home is a good idea, for the long term at least and just to let his feet sort themselves out a bit.


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

ester said:



			He definitely looks over at knee not back in those pics OP . 

be careful about your farrier doing much with them this afternoon, if he has done too much with them already. It does sound like he has always been on the edge of having issues with his feet and I think considering barefoot transition at home is a good idea, for the long term at least and just to let his feet sort themselves out a bit.
		
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Well from what I know that's a bit better than being back at the knee  he's not doing anything to his feet today he's just checking up on him. Think he's feeling a bit bad! Will update with pics of his feet later


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

Scarlett said:



			Alfalfa is high in calcium which is supposed to help settle the acid in the stomach, I read though that horses only need to have it be 20% of that food intake per day and that type of fibre (legumes?) is in grazing so they normally get as much as they need from their grass and hay intake, hence why lots of horses can't have it in a bucket feed, especially in large quantities. I have one who LOVES it but one small feed of it makes him look like is legs are falling off 

There's a barefoot theory that if your horse isn't sound out of shoes then it isn't sound. I always thought it was normal for a horse to be lame when it lost a shoe but I realise now it isn't, certainly not hopping lame. My mare had her shoes pulled once because she was being turned away, she was crippled  farrier blamed her TB feet and I reshod, 2 years later I realised that it was a big glaring sign of the problems with her feet and if I had addressed it then we might not have had the problems we had. Hindsight is always 20/20.

No tracks here. Just the right diet, a good mineral supplement, lots of movement (in boots if needed) and I got in a good, sensible trimmer (UKNHCP registered) who held my hand through the tough times. I found farriers lack the knowledge in trimming and maintaining a working hoof without shoes, it's not covered by their training. My trimmers have always been able to help with mineral balancing and diet which I've found to be an important part of the process.

My mare that I talk of had soft tissue damage as well as changes to the navicular bone. She went of and had a foal and is now back in work. I've just had to get a new saddle for her as, after all those years of what I know now was sore feet, she is now moving so much better and has bulked out considerably. She is only 12 and I'm hopeful that now I'll finally have the horse we knew she could be.
		
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Thanks Scarlett. Waiting for farrier now and going to have a chat with him. I've never had a horse barefoot and I am worried about the amount of road work and Stoney tracks we have around here. Especially given how long it will likely take to be able to work him on any sort of surface-I'd quite like to get out and about on him this summer! Having said that, I'd rather have him happy and sound for years to come whatever the implications now. 

Have taken some pics of his feet so will post later when I'm back on laptop


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## Scarlett (21 January 2015)

Michen said:



			Thanks Scarlett. Waiting for farrier now and going to have a chat with him. I've never had a horse barefoot and I am worried about the amount of road work and Stoney tracks we have around here. Especially given how long it will likely take to be able to work him on any sort of surface-I'd quite like to get out and about on him this summer! Having said that, I'd rather have him happy and sound for years to come whatever the implications now. 

Have taken some pics of his feet so will post later when I'm back on laptop 

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Don't worry about the roadwork, it's actually really, really good for feet and wont wear the hooves away to stumps. I had a horse walked with a concrete base when I first took shoes off and they went in it daily, my trimmer credited it with how well they did. The hoof soon grows to support the workload and while things al catch up boots are a really good option.

Looking forward to pics


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

Scarlett said:



			Don't worry about the roadwork, it's actually really, really good for feet and wont wear the hooves away to stumps. I had a horse walked with a concrete base when I first took shoes off and they went in it daily, my trimmer credited it with how well they did. The hoof soon grows to support the workload and while things al catch up boots are a really good option.

Looking forward to pics 

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So bloomin farrier didn't show which is annoying considering I shifted work to have a proper chat with him! He's not usually like that but frustrating all the same. Pics attached- horrendously flat as you can see 

 Obviously he's only been shod twice since he left racing so he will have had extremely regular shoeing etc. That bit you can see between shoe and hoof is the special shoe he put on him when we thought his lameness was due to a bruise, its shaped like the shoe and is kinda woodeny. 

I really, really know nothing about hoof angles etc. I've always had horses with good, simple feet with no problems. My last ex racer used to loose shoes terribly and took off chunks of his foot every time and my farrier managed to sort him out. After 6 months he never lost shoes and had cracking feet, so I've always gone by that. I'll be doing a lot of reading tonight anyway!

































The man himself who says thank you everyone for all the advice!


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## Gloi (21 January 2015)

Those hooves seem to have very collapsed heels on those pictures. A break from shoes and booting him to go out would be likely to do a lot of good.


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

Gloi said:



			Those hooves seem to have very collapsed heels on those pictures. A break from shoes and booting him to go out would be likely to do a lot of good.
		
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Booting to go out in field or just when out riding? Do most people boot all 4 when first removing shoes or just the fronts?


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## BethH (21 January 2015)

Not convinced about the feet - they are a bit bullnosed and the black one looks underrun - you know you could just take the shoes off & get a 2nd opinion from a decent qualified trimmer.  As I said I like DAEP as I like the common sense & knowledge of the ex-farrier that has set up the training programme for them, but another poster has also mentioned a UKNHCP qualification too and there are more of those around.  IMHO the heels don't look great and that won't help him move correctly - it could well be that your farrier has spotted that and his way of trying to get the heel back is to cut short to try to get the foot back underneath him, a common farriery trick.  If you take the shoes off and give them time to get some decent growth you would give a trimmer more to work with and it will help him balance the foot.  Definitely worth investigating all of your options - huge pat on the back by the way for being so open minded and open to the advice - he's a lucky horse I so hope you both have a wonderful future together.


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

BethH said:



			Not convinced about the feet - they are a bit bullnosed and the black one looks underrun - you know you could just take the shoes off & get a 2nd opinion from a decent qualified trimmer.  As I said I like DAEP as I like the common sense & knowledge of the ex-farrier that has set up the training programme for them, but another poster has also mentioned a UKNHCP qualification too and there are more of those around.  IMHO the heels don't look great and that won't help him move correctly - it could well be that your farrier has spotted that and his way of trying to get the heel back is to cut short to try to get the foot back underneath him, a common farriery trick.  If you take the shoes off and give them time to get some decent growth you would give a trimmer more to work with and it will help him balance the foot.  Definitely worth investigating all of your options - huge pat on the back by the way for being so open minded and open to the advice - he's a lucky horse I so hope you both have a wonderful future together.
		
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Thanks Beth. I guess that would explain why he cut his toe back so short and subsequently the horse went so sore? I'm looking at hoof boots now. I'm worried though about getting him from stable to field as he does have to walk over some hard stoney ground, and there wouldn't be much point in booting him for turnout (I don't think!?) as surely then his feet will never harden. I'm going to chat with my farrier and see what he says. I'm open to the idea of no shoes, but equally in the research I've started doing I'm coming across a fair number of people whose horses it didn't work for. Only one way to find out I guess! 

And thanks, hopefully I will be lucky too and he's not "broken"!


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## Andalucian (21 January 2015)

Michen said:



			I've never experienced a horse that automatically got so sore if a bit too much toe was taken off though,it does concern me that there's something else there. That or he is a big woose- also a possibility give the drama he's made out of various other things!
		
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No worries, I'm a barefoot trimmer, but not all horses/owners are right for it, that said, there will be a reason why he can't cope with the change, but in the short term I don't think barefoot is the right answer. Get him right shod, then investigate what barefoot would involve, maybe get a consultation, then decide if it's viable for you both.  Tell your farrier your concerns, and explain what the trainers told you about toe length, he will want to know, we all need to keep open to learning and each horse is an individual.  Good luck.


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

Andalucian said:



			No worries, I'm a barefoot trimmer, but not all horses/owners are right for it, that said, there will be a reason why he can't cope with the change, but in the short term I don't think barefoot is the right answer. Get him right shod, then investigate what barefoot would involve, maybe get a consultation, then decide if it's viable for you both.  Tell your farrier your concerns, and explain what the trainers told you about toe length, he will want to know, we all need to keep open to learning and each horse is an individual.  Good luck.
		
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That's interesting to hear Andalucian, so you don't think I should be whipping those shoes off now then? Did you have a look at the pics I posted of his feet? They are terribly flat but of course that's not going to be a quick fix. Thank you very much for your advice.


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

Andalucian said:



			No worries, I'm a barefoot trimmer, but not all horses/owners are right for it, that said, there will be a reason why he can't cope with the change, but in the short term I don't think barefoot is the right answer. Get him right shod, then investigate what barefoot would involve, maybe get a consultation, then decide if it's viable for you both.  Tell your farrier your concerns, and explain what the trainers told you about toe length, he will want to know, we all need to keep open to learning and each horse is an individual.  Good luck.
		
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When I say whipping off now, I mean in the next few weeks once he's sound (he's about 80% there now)


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## BethH (21 January 2015)

You know for many people that it doesn't work for and I've known a few, it's either the diet that's not right or there is something else going on with the horse and the owner can't admit it and blames it on not coping without shoes.  He does need to move over different surfaces to toughen the feet but if you go slowly but surely and don't push him to fast that will help. Do remember it's not just about the feet, in my own horses case, the foot balance was so bad it stressed the hocks and then the remedy of barefoot re-stressed the hock.  The good thing is that you've seen a difference because your horse is talking loudly to you - I personally think that's a good thing he feels able to do so.  You have heard him & jumped on it quickly.  Do remember all of his ligaments and muscles will change as it affects his whole movement and you will take steps backwards as well as forwards, be careful about jumping for a while too as he will have weakness in the digital cushion etc etc.  Look at this website Trevor Jones is very very good, the ex farrier I was talking about KC La Pierre trained him and also trained my trimmer http://www.equinepodiatry.co.uk/ he has some interesting articles on the site.  There are other information sites too http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/ is a good discussion site, might give you a feel for things.


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## Andalucian (21 January 2015)

I just don't think he's going to be a very easy transition to barefoot, there are a lot of issues I can see in the photos, diet should be addressed whilst he's in shoes to make it easier for him when and if you do decide to try barefoot. Without meeting him, you and assessing the environment you have for him, it's impossible to say how long it will take for him to adjust and be able to work under saddle post shoe removal, but it won't be anything like a couple of weeks.


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

Andalucian said:



			I just don't think he's going to be a very easy transition to barefoot, there are a lot of issues I can see in the photos, diet should be addressed whilst he's in shoes to make it easier for him when and if you do decide to try barefoot. Without meeting him, you and assessing the environment you have for him, it's impossible to say how long it will take for him to adjust and be able to work under saddle post shoe removal, but it won't be anything like a couple of weeks.
		
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He's already fed a low starch and low sugar (mostly- but will be addressing the bit that's slightly out for sure) diet  Would you care to expand on what issues you see in the photos? I'd like to do as much reading one everything as I can so I can understand the conversation I'm going to be having with my farrier


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## FfionWinnie (21 January 2015)

Another way to look at it is he is doing the least amount of work he's ever going to be doing (hopefully!) now. To me that's the time to do a BF transition. With my last horse she had terrible feet and was shod. I kept her shod thinking I would take them off over the winter (unfortunately she died of grass sickness before the winter).  My new mare, I knew I would mainly be working in the school so the transition could be done gently and gradually and I got the shoes off four days after she arrived.  By summer when I want to be doing loads of hacking, I'm hoping we will be ready for it. If not, I will get boots. (She is a cob and its going remarkably well, I know it will be more complex with a TB!)


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## BethH (21 January 2015)

I also agree with Andalucian, it's not a quick surefire solution, it does take time and patience, you should investigate your options before you rush in and also get the diet sorted for a while before the shoes come off.


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## ktj1891 (21 January 2015)

He is so similiar to my ex-racer! If you want to look through my old posts they are very like yours lol! If you would like any of my experiences etc what I have done with my guy please feel free to message me. I was in exactly same boat as you, knew nothing about barefoot, diet etc etc and I learn't a lot along the way. He looks very sweet, what trainer did you get him from?


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

ktj1891 said:



			He is so similiar to my ex-racer! If you want to look through my old posts they are very like yours lol! If you would like any of my experiences etc what I have done with my guy please feel free to message me. I was in exactly same boat as you, knew nothing about barefoot, diet etc etc and I learn't a lot along the way. He looks very sweet, what trainer did you get him from?
		
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Thanks, I will do- I saw one of your posts and noticed your sig, was planning on dropping you a PM anyway! He came from Roger Ingram, was at Brett Johnsons before that.


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

UPDATE everyone, thanks for all your help. Although he's now a lot better and pretty sound, I've just booked him in for a consult with a barefoot trimmer. Not necessarily definitely going to do it, but I'd like to hear what he has to say and it's definitely something worth looking in to.


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## BethH (21 January 2015)

Great - that way you can make an informed decision without being panicked in to it.  Make sure you ask about the drawbacks as well as the benefits, If you want to pm me about anything please do, as I hit a few problems along the way myself so am neither anti shoes or blindly barefoot, I just got forced in to a corner as my horse was seriously struggling and the yard I am on has some very well informed barefooters. My horse did teach me quite a bit about the drawbacks though after spending 10years in shoes, however he is so much happier in his body!!


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

BethH said:



			Great - that way you can make an informed decision without being panicked in to it.  Make sure you ask about the drawbacks as well as the benefits, If you want to pm me about anything please do, as I hit a few problems along the way myself so am neither anti shoes or blindly barefoot, I just got forced in to a corner as my horse was seriously struggling and the yard I am on has some very well informed barefooters. My horse did teach me quite a bit about the drawbacks though after spending 10years in shoes, however he is so much happier in his body!!
		
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Thanks very much Beth. From what I'm reading, I think he's going to need a long time with the correct diet before I can think about pulling his shoes. Am thinking that this side of summer may be too soon, and that perhaps whilst the ground is hard isn't great either. Going to see what the barefoot trimmer says but I'm wondering if its something I should be investigating in the autumn, when the ground is soft and he's had a good 10 months out of racing with correct diet. Not sure, just musing about it. 

Did you use boots? Were they as good as shoes in the sense of roadwork/hacking. Aka can you take shoes off and be able to use boots straight away?


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## ester (21 January 2015)

I think if you can keep him comfy through a barefoot transition it is the thing most likely to improve his feet. I think those heels will struggle to improve in shoes (so some time out of shoes and then if needed for the workload shoeing again/for part of the season might work). I would defnitely have a consult and a chat - I did too before my lads shoes came off. I suspect Andalucian is right in that he isn't going to be the easiest to transition and will likely need boots too but hopefully trimmer can advise, mine had a helpful fit kit . 

I did use boots - easyboot gloves, used when straight out of shoes and better than shoes for hacking - I am still on the same pair though only used occasionally and they are nearly 3 years old now! - better grip on roads than shoes, (like bare) never lost one and have made them work quite hard! There are loads of boots out there now and some are designed for more padding that others (gloves don't really take pads) and some need to be a closer fit than others (gloves again!) while some are more forgiving - other easyboots/cavallo simples etc especially as I am quite unusual in that Frank's feet are much the same shape. 
Pinesofrome on here had a horse who was particularly sore to start with and I think started to be helped by lucypriory on here. He definitely turned out in cavllos to start with until he became more comfortable.


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

ester said:



			I think if you can keep him comfy through a barefoot transition it is the thing most likely to improve his feet. I think those heels will struggle to improve in shoes (so some time out of shoes and then if needed for the workload shoeing again/for part of the season might work). I would defnitely have a consult and a chat - I did too before my lads shoes came off. I suspect Andalucian is right in that he isn't going to be the easiest to transition and will likely need boots too but hopefully trimmer can advise, mine had a helpful fit kit . 

I did use boots - easyboot gloves, used when straight out of shoes and better than shoes for hacking - I am still on the same pair though only used occasionally and they are nearly 3 years old now! - better grip on roads than shoes, (like bare) never lost one and have made them work quite hard! There are loads of boots out there now and some are designed for more padding that others (gloves don't really take pads) and some need to be a closer fit than others (gloves again!) while some are more forgiving - other easyboots/cavallo simples etc especially as I am quite unusual in that Frank's feet are much the same shape. 
Pinesofrome on here had a horse who was particularly sore to start with and I think started to be helped by lucypriory on here. He definitely turned out in cavllos to start with until he became more comfortable.
		
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Thanks for this Ester 

So were you able to continue his level of work when he was wearing boots? As pretty much all of the hacking around here is quiet country roads and in the spring/summer he will probably be doing 1.5 hours of road work a day 4 days a week, and 2.5 hours once a week. I'm just cautious as to whether they are as good a protection as shoes or whether he's likely to be footy in them too. From what you are saying- sounds like they will be fine! Did you use them on all 4 feet to begin with?


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## BethH (21 January 2015)

Musing's good it helps you plan.  I have never liked boots for my horse as lovely tho he is, he can be a bit of a pickle but really imaginative with his behaviour when he's not sure about something.  I had visions of him cantering sideways up the road trying to kick them off and hitting some passing cyclist with them, so I did a fair bit of walking in hand on concrete & tarmac which is great for their feet. They are a great idea tho and have helped a lot of my friends horses.  Oddly he coped remarkably well when the shoes came off - leapt in the air bless him, wasn't particularly footsore but went a bit wrong when I think I overdid it on hard ground in the summer with a bit of jumping.  He transitioned so well we were all amazed and being the type that will try to be helpful if his head is on straight I just carried on as normal!  He had genetic ks as a baby and I have always been so careful - was very angry with myself hence the suggestion to you of going slowly but surely.  The right decision will come to you and if the shoes come off they can go back on again.  We used to always take shoes of each year to give the horses feet a break, we don't anymore, think that is partly why there are so many problems & broken horses.  Just do your homework first and whatever you decide will be the right thing


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

BethH said:



			Musing's good it helps you plan.  I have never liked boots for my horse as lovely tho he is, he can be a bit of a pickle but really imaginative with his behaviour when he's not sure about something.  I had visions of him cantering sideways up the road trying to kick them off and hitting some passing cyclist with them, so I did a fair bit of walking in hand on concrete & tarmac which is great for their feet. They are a great idea tho and have helped a lot of my friends horses.  Oddly he coped remarkably well when the shoes came off - leapt in the air bless him, wasn't particularly footsore but went a bit wrong when I think I overdid it on hard ground in the summer with a bit of jumping.  He transitioned so well we were all amazed and being the type that will try to be helpful if his head is on straight I just carried on as normal!  He had genetic ks as a baby and I have always been so careful - was very angry with myself hence the suggestion to you of going slowly but surely.  The right decision will come to you and if the shoes come off they can go back on again.  We used to always take shoes of each year to give the horses feet a break, we don't anymore, think that is partly why there are so many problems & broken horses.  Just do your homework first and whatever you decide will be the right thing
		
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Thank you- time to explore all options  

I'm mainly worried about diet and restricting his grass. He will be in during the day all summer anyway, but the fields do get fairly lush. Do you have to strip graze to reduce your horses grass intake for the sugar levels? I wouldn't be able to do anything like this on my yard


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## ester (21 January 2015)

boots are generally more protective than shoes - all that nice sole cover/extra cushioning if required. 

I used them on front only - Frank though welsh had collapsed heels and flat soles, his hinds were fine. 
He was lame before his shoes came off and had been for a several months (conventional treatment not working long term), so he actually started doing 10 min in hand every day roadwork and went up from there. At the 6 week point his feet woke up and he went pretty footy although he was doing nearer and hour by then and sound- he was then booted because it is good for feet to be stimulated but not if sore- so he would do still do his 10 min on the road bare but would do more with his boots on. - I also became a pro at hacking to our 1/2 mile grassy stretch in boots, taking them off while there and then putting them on again on way home but he is a pony! 

I still use them intermittently because we have some really chalky stoney forest tracks here- if on own I will let him pick along the edge/take his time a bit but if I am hacking with others who walk faster than him anyway and may want to trot on I will boot. 

Fwiw he's been sound ever since his shoes came off  He was 19 then and is 22 this summer so I took quite a long time over his rehab as having had him a long time wanted to give him every chance, and having closely looked at his landing I suspected some collateral ligament damage as he was landing v. badly outsides first- more so on the lame foot. We regularly do 10-15 mile hacks on various surfaces, compete and the odd bit of hunting (doesn't feel any stones then funny that!) 

My only but is that I wouldn't expect him to be competitive on all types of grass without shoes, I wouldn't show jump him on grass/do some of the turns I used to do on him without studs sometimes, generally bare you get a lot more traction but hard ground/wet grass is problematic from what I have found, like it is in shoes but you can't pop any studs in to help. It isn't an issue for us as at his age we just play around doing things we enjoy and am not keen to jump him much unless on a surface these days anyway. If he were younger and we were still doing the stuff we did then I would prob shoe him if I wanted to stud but make sure he had a good winter unshod still. I think Goldenstar has one who can't quite cope fully so is shod for hunting but not the other 6 months to give them a rest.

Oh re the grazing we put a track around the outside of our field as he was at home then, cannot do that here in wilts although the grass is less lush than on somerset clay, and as a good doer he did well muzzled - in during the day too so adlib hay then. Might not be too much of an issue though, that is mostly for weight issues so yours might be fine out at night only.


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## BethH (21 January 2015)

To be honest in the summer my horse is in during the day & out at night when the sugar is lower, he has never been fed sugar in his diet since I bought him as a 4yr old because he behaves like an idiot so he is on the same diet now as when he was shod and I am lucky he has never showed any signs of laminitis etc.  I just treat him like a normal horse, nothing has changed except my knowledge and he has a podiatrist not a farrier. The only thing I do differently is to go over his feet with a wire brush once a week to help him exfoliate and spray on sole spray by Red Horse to keep them clean.  If there are a little smelly at any point I spray them with Hypocare (its a wound spray but brilliant for the frogs) a lot of people also use kevin Bacon.  If your horse is in regular work the feet will sort themselves out as long as you work them thoughtfully and vary the surfaces.  I also changed my bedding to a good quality wood pellet which I thought I would hate but it is great for his feet as is the sand in the sandschool, if he hets sore sand is brilliant at helping.


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

ester said:



			boots are generally more protective than shoes - all that nice sole cover/extra cushioning if required. 

I used them on front only - Frank though welsh had collapsed heels and flat soles, his hinds were fine. 
He was lame before his shoes came off and had been for a several months (conventional treatment not working long term), so he actually started doing 10 min in hand every day roadwork and went up from there. At the 6 week point his feet woke up and he went pretty footy although he was doing nearer and hour by then and sound- he was then booted because it is good for feet to be stimulated but not if sore- so he would do still do his 10 min on the road bare but would do more with his boots on. - I also became a pro at hacking to our 1/2 mile grassy stretch in boots, taking them off while there and then putting them on again on way home but he is a pony! 

I still use them intermittently because we have some really chalky stoney forest tracks here- if on own I will let him pick along the edge/take his time a bit but if I am hacking with others who walk faster than him anyway and may want to trot on I will boot. 

Fwiw he's been sound ever since his shoes came off  He was 19 then and is 22 this summer so I took quite a long time over his rehab as having had him a long time wanted to give him every chance, and having closely looked at his landing I suspected some collateral ligament damage as he was landing v. badly outsides first- more so on the lame foot. We regularly do 10-15 mile hacks on various surfaces, compete and the odd bit of hunting (doesn't feel any stones then funny that!) 

My only but is that I wouldn't expect him to be competitive on all types of grass without shoes, I wouldn't show jump him on grass/do some of the turns I used to do on him without studs sometimes, generally bare you get a lot more traction but hard ground/wet grass is problematic from what I have found, like it is in shoes but you can't pop any studs in to help. It isn't an issue for us as at his age we just play around doing things we enjoy and am not keen to jump him much unless on a surface these days anyway. If he were younger and we were still doing the stuff we did then I would prob shoe him if I wanted to stud but make sure he had a good winter unshod still. I think Goldenstar has one who can't quite cope fully so is shod for hunting but not the other 6 months to give them a rest.

Oh re the grazing we put a track around the outside of our field as he was at home then, cannot do that here in wilts although the grass is less lush than on somerset clay, and as a good doer he did well muzzled - in during the day too so adlib hay then. Might not be too much of an issue though, that is mostly for weight issues so yours might be fine out at night only.
		
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Thank you so much for all that, really interesting to hear. I want this little guy to event (albeit never higher than a be100) eventually and didn't realise BE don't allow hoof boots so that's something to consider. Perhaps just popping shoes on during the season (this is all a long way off anyway!) would be the way to go and keep him barefoot the rest of the time. It will be interesting to see what the EP says but I think for now I'm not going to be rushing to take the shoes off. 

Really appreciate all the info, I'll probably be bombarding you for more in the next few months


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## Scarlett (21 January 2015)

OP I just want to say well done for taking part in the conversation - whatever happens I think your horse will be just fine with an owner like you who is willing to ask questions and learn. 

FWIW I think you should sort the diet then pull shoes and boot up. You might not need to boot the rears - you could pull them first and see how he copes? - and hopefully the diet changes will make the fronts transitioning easier. 

The great thing is that you can re shoe if and when you need too, it's not final. Once the feet are healthier it'll be easier to keep them healthy in shoes, some folk shoe in the summer and rest the feet in the winter. There are horses out there eventing unshod, hopefully mine will be this year, and plenty dressage and jump without shoes. I went to an xc clinic last year and had less slipping than the shod horses,  people thought I had studs in until I pointed out we didn't even have shoes. 

Anyway good luck and keep us updated!


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## Michen (21 January 2015)

Scarlett said:



			OP I just want to say well done for taking part in the conversation - whatever happens I think your horse will be just fine with an owner like you who is willing to ask questions and learn. 

FWIW I think you should sort the diet then pull shoes and boot up. You might not need to boot the rears - you could pull them first and see how he copes? - and hopefully the diet changes will make the fronts transitioning easier. 

The great thing is that you can re shoe if and when you need too, it's not final. Once the feet are healthier it'll be easier to keep them healthy in shoes, some folk shoe in the summer and rest the feet in the winter. There are horses out there eventing unshod, hopefully mine will be this year, and plenty dressage and jump without shoes. I went to an xc clinic last year and had less slipping than the shod horses,  people thought I had studs in until I pointed out we didn't even have shoes. 

Anyway good luck and keep us updated!
		
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Thanks Scarlett, its definitely something I'm going to really look in to. My other thought is- if he can be without shoes, and booted if necessary, it would actually make my fittening work so much easier. I'm not a fan of trotting on roads as I worry about the concussion from shoes (particularly having managed a spavin horse before). I'd certainly feel a lot happier doing it if he was booted/barefoot.

Lots to think about- thanks for all your help, I'll keep you updated. No doubt there will be lots of HELP posts over the next few months!


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## ester (22 January 2015)

, fwiw despite my hoof boots being fab and not losing one and having popped over a few logs I wouldn't be keen to do loads of jumping in them - mostly because I think there is a chance of the horse stepping on one/tripping itself up/one coming part off mid round. I wouldn't hunt in them either though I do know someone does with their haffy with extra athletic tape to make them fit, but they have particularly flinty ground.


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## Michen (31 January 2015)

ester said:



, fwiw despite my hoof boots being fab and not losing one and having popped over a few logs I wouldn't be keen to do loads of jumping in them - mostly because I think there is a chance of the horse stepping on one/tripping itself up/one coming part off mid round. I wouldn't hunt in them either though I do know someone does with their haffy with extra athletic tape to make them fit, but they have particularly flinty ground.
		
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Just to update you all because everyone on here was so helpful! Although he continued to improve I decided I wasn't happy with this and needed to dig a bit deep so had his feet x rayed today. Also had an EP out to see him. 

EP recommended not removing the shoes for now,that is will be a long process to get him ready for it. 

Farrier- sacked. Which is sad because I've got on with him so well for the last few years. However I had another guy out to him before the vet (who my old farrier- incidently- trained!!!) and he was absolutely shocked at various things that my farrier had done and very surprised he hadn't said I should x ray much earlier. He told me x y z, and guess what, x y z rocked up on the x rays. Whole foot is horribly out of balance and his soles are so thin his pedal bone is practically on the floor. 

So, for now, I am going down the vet referall remedial farrier route. Both my farrier and vet and fairly pro him eventually having some time out of shoes, but both feel there's so much severity to what's going on with his feet now that we need to try and improve the situation before pulling shoes.

I know some of you won't agree with this but I really trust this farrier and my vet and I'm going to go with their advice for now and see where it gets us. If it doesn't work, shoes off. My long term plan is for him to have them off for a good few months at least when possible anyway, so fingers crossed we can work towards that.


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## BethH (31 January 2015)

Well done - foot balance can cause terrible issues as it did with my poor horse.  Am delighted you now have a way forward - lucky horse, I think a rest from shoes for his feet is always a good thing and something we should all try to do regularly.  My horse is still barefoot, given all the issues he has been through, in retrospect I would have tried to get the foot balanced properly & tried to get some heels back under him for a bit before pulling the shoes - I love him being barefoot but I think just going from shod to not was too fast for him and put strain on his joints.  You'll get to the right place in the end now you have good help on your side.  Good luck, keep us posted


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## Andalucian (31 January 2015)

Good update.


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## ester (31 January 2015)

Michen I don't think many will disagree it seems a v sensible approach to me. It is important the horse stays comfortable enough so if that means good shoeing for now  I think horse is lucky to have you


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## Meowy Catkin (31 January 2015)

I have to agree, the horse's comfort must come first.


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## Michen (1 February 2015)

ester said:



			Michen I don't think many will disagree it seems a v sensible approach to me. It is important the horse stays comfortable enough so if that means good shoeing for now  I think horse is lucky to have you 

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Thank you  Having said that- know anyone who would like a free thoroughbred? He's being starved for a scoping tomorrow morning and it looks like I'm about to spend the night in his stable as he is quite literally chewing the wooden walls, I've run out of cribox now and I have no muzzle! God damn horse...... yard owner will go bonkers.


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## Michen (1 February 2015)

Thanks all! I have a million questions waiting, more to be added when I hear farriers plan next week so no doubt you'll see an essay of a post soon to pick all your brains  You've all been amazingly helpful so thank you. 

With or without shoes I will do what I can to get this little horse sound and comfy, he deserves a shot.


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## honetpot (1 February 2015)

BethH said:



			Just want to make a small comment that when you said his legs shake sometimes it jumped out at me.  I've owned my horse 11yrs so know him pretty well. I changed farrier who shod him differently and it caused utter devastation.  I wonder if he has tried to change too much of the foot balance too quickly.  When my horses leg started shaking I got the shoes off quick and realised my new superb master farrier had allowed the heels to run forward and he had started to land toe 1st, I asked him to support the heels which he had chopped off and he overdid by setting the shoe back too far and crippled my poor boy.  Video your horse walking in the school and slow it down to have a look at the action of the footfall - it just sounds wrong that his leg is doing that, forgive me if I have misunderstood.  Your farrier may be brilliant but he maybe trying to change things too quickly.  By the way my new farrier was a master farrier who sits on the FRC.  I don't think he is great anymore and certainly would never allow those he has trained to ever touch my horse again.  I think you need to go investigate the shoeing - if worse come to worse an xray might clarify how the feet are doing but you may need to ask your farrier to go a bit more slowly - just because other horse cope doesn't mean yours can and if he is still not right take vet advice not the farriers as imho they try to cover their own backs by justifying what they have done.  My post isn't meant to be provocative just from bitter & expensive experience.  Good luck - I hope you find a simple explanation
		
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 We owned a pony who had the worst looking feet ever, totally upright, contracted frogs which even when trimmed never touched the ground, when my daughter took her to PC kids used to ask what was wrong with her feet. Best of advice from a farrier was, don't let anyone fiddle with her feet and get them 'right', she was never lame in the 20 years I had her.
 We also had a TB who's sole were very thin, good farriers want to trim them to as shape and one went through the sole, to the point it bled. He also had a good memory so had to be on  danilon if he stubbed his toe, or had a bruise or even thought the ground was stony.
   At this stage I would get the vet just for a check that nothing has been missed but you risk that they will want to dig and make things worse but next time I would do a reducing dose of danilon. Provided the vet can not find anything I would leave him on the danilon but a reduce dose and let the hoof grow and then trial him without.


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## Michen (5 February 2015)

Hiya all,

Just updating you with a wee video from this evening. He's not 100% but WOW I am relieved to see him moving like this, 3 days ago he was still seriously pottery in trot and I was beginning to think I'd never see him sound again. Nearly 4 weeks after he was shod and his toes were cut back so severely  In a way I am glad it happened as it meant I got the x rays done, even if what we found on them wasn't really the cause of the lameness. 

[video=youtube;OF6TOLot_ko]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF6TOLot_ko[/video]

About an hour after this was taken he was shod with graduated bar shoes and gel pads. As some of you guys predicted, he did seem immediately more comfortable. He will be x rayed again in 3 months time and if no actual improvement is showing (aka its purely that he seems more comfortable not that they are working) then we will have to re think. But for now, considering how much pain this little horse has been in, I am just so relieved to see him happy again!


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