# Operation: Learn To Ride



## Ambers Echo (15 September 2020)

So with Amber out of action this season, I have been trying to use the time constructively. So I have been having schoolmaster lessons at Ingestre. I said I wanted to go back to basics and would spend 6 months in walk if necessry to improve my seat! I am loving the lessons and really feeling the benefit. Plus I have had a couple of rider biomechanics lessons as I am so wonky. And have continued with Dressage Rider Training - doing the 2nd 12 week block now. I'm on a mission!!

Toby has been a great help in giving me as much saddle time as possible and I also school Dolly so I am getting to practice what I learn in the lessons.
I have felt really positive about it during Amber's lameness - feeling like I was still moving towards us getting back to eventing with a new and improved AE on her!! Just need her sound for next season and we will be away. Here's hoping.


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## Roxylola (15 September 2020)

Oh that sounds fab. Ingestre is a bit far for me to go regularly, but I'm going to try and get over there a bit over winter. Rob often used to examine for us when I worked as an instructor and hes fab so I'm sure his staff will be great too. I've signed up for jo Titterton's 4 week course via Facebook so I'm cracking on with the pilates in the hope it will make some difference to my straightness etc. I think it's so easy to underestimate the impact fitness and flexibility etc has on us as riders especially if we are basically functional as we are.


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## paddi22 (15 September 2020)

is the dressage rider training good? had been looking at joining.


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## oldie48 (15 September 2020)

That's a really good plan. DRT was just too much for me but I am sticking with my equipilates and am also going to do some rider biomechanics whilst I am a bit broken as a lot can be done in walk and I'm hoping it will improve my riding. I'm also, like you, one for turning disappointments/setbacks into opportunities. Life is too short not to do that.


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## Bernster (15 September 2020)

Sounds like a constructive and positive approach!  Be interested to hear how you get on.

Having been investigating some possible niggles with finnegan, I’ve decided to have a crack at some ground work with him and got a book recommended by wheels, to see if I can help his wonkiness. Im on the hunt for some form of fitness exercise for me that I will actually keep going with. Never found anything other than riding tbh and dont want something that takes up with would otherwise be riding time.  A Friend has suggested skipping !


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## Ambers Echo (15 September 2020)

paddi22 said:



			is the dressage rider training good? had been looking at joining.
		
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I like the yoga and core stuff. Less convinced by the strength sessions. I have learnt the routines/poses and do them more or less myself now for DRT 1 instead of following along. Just started DRT2 so not sure how it differs yet.


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## paddi22 (15 September 2020)

deadly thanks!


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## Sam_J (15 September 2020)

I'd be interested to hear more about your lessons Ambers Echo.  Now that I've got some weight off (still a bit more to go, though!)  I'm going to be looking for somewhere to go to improve my confidence and also revisit some basics. Ingestre is on my list of places to investigate, along with Bold Heath, Cheshire Riding School and Eccleston.  If/when ponio starts work again, I want to be in shape and a better rider than I am now.

If you feel like posting any lesson reports or any more details, I'd love to read them.


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## Ambers Echo (15 September 2020)

I've been to Bold Health and Ingestre and Ingestre is far nicer. It's the most amazing place. Bold Health was a bit industrial whereas visiting Ingestre is like visting some amazing stately home.
More importantly, the horse I have been riding is beautifully schooled and the teaching has been great. I have ridden a couple of Bold Heath horses and they were far more your typical riding school plods. Apart from the nappy, spooky one!


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## Roxylola (15 September 2020)

I worked at eccleston years ago, karen is brill. I'll likely take supercob up for some jump lessons over winter I think. Bold has some decent facilities, the big outdoor is fantastic. Both are a good bit more affordable than ingestre and I think both would agree they're in a different league really.


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## Lexi_ (15 September 2020)

I had the worst riding lesson of my entire life at Bold Heath!


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## Sam_J (15 September 2020)

Lexi_ said:



			I had the worst riding lesson of my entire life at Bold Heath!
		
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Oooooookay, maybe I'll cross that one off my list!  I did my PTT at Eccleston and my stage 2 at Ingestre (a long time ago!) and remember being impressed with them both but never been to Bold Heath other than to take daughter to compete there.


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## Ambers Echo (25 September 2020)

It's hard to remember specific things from lessons so I plan to write them down here. 

I sit to the right. So the horse falls in on the left rein. I correct with inside hand and inside leg when I need to use the outside aids. Soften the inside rein, sit straight, keep horse's neck more straight and turn with outside leg. That worked well but I am still not sure why sitting right makes the horse fall in? But it obviously does!

Lower leg needs to be more underneath me. Trot stood up a few strides then sit again focusing on keeping legs where they are - ie in balance.

I fiddle too much. Exercise - ride with a whip across wrists in w/t/c. If I fiddle the whip will fall off!

Stay more upright in downwards transitions. Focus on the horse coming up to walk and carrying you forward in walk. Not on dropping down from trot.

Keep core more stable, especially in canter.

That will keep me going till the next one!


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## HufflyPuffly (25 September 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			It's hard to remember specific things from lessons so I plan to write them down here.

I sit to the right. So the horse falls in on the left rein. I correct with inside hand and inside leg when I need to use the outside aids. Soften the inside rein, sit straight, keep horse's neck more straight and turn with outside leg. That worked well but I am still not sure why sitting right makes the horse fall in? But it obviously does!

Lower leg needs to be more underneath me. Trot stood up a few strides then sit again focusing on keeping legs where they are - ie in balance.

I fiddle too much. Exercise - ride with a whip across wrists in w/t/c. If I fiddle the whip will fall off!

Stay more upright in downwards transitions. Focus on the horse coming up to walk and carrying you forward in walk. Not on dropping down from trot.

Keep core more stable, especially in canter.

That will keep me going till the next one!
		
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I would imagine sitting to the right is driving your right seat bone down giving the seat aid to move left? It kinda makes sense in my head but I'm not sure how to explain it lol. Sounds some good things to work on though!


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## oldie48 (25 September 2020)

I'd be writing exactly the same thing. It's strange how many of us turn using the inside rein even when we've had lots of lessons from good trainers! I know I use my rein rather than my legs.


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## Bernster (25 September 2020)

Me too!  Snap. Worked on sitting up on the left, keeping my left leg on the girth and straight but turning my upper body to the left.  Def improvement !


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## Ambers Echo (25 September 2020)

Having spent a few weeks working on myself, I had a lesson on Toby today. He was much straighter, so hopefully that means I was!! In the clips of the lesson I still wince at how unstable my hands are though. Why is watching yourself riding so stressful!


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## Roxylola (25 September 2020)

I'm fairly ok with watching flat work, I'm preoccupied with the horse then and manage not to look at myself too much. Jumping though I hate 😂 just cringeworthy


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## teapot (25 September 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			That worked well but I am still not sure why sitting right makes the horse fall in? But it obviously does!
		
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Because the horse is moving away from/avoiding carrying the extra weight of you being wonky and collapsing to the right.


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## Ambers Echo (25 September 2020)

Roxylola said:



			I'm fairly ok with watching flat work, I'm preoccupied with the horse then and manage not to look at myself too much. Jumping though I hate 😂 just cringeworthy
		
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He looks quite good! But I am too distracted by me!!


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## Ambers Echo (9 October 2020)

Another Ingestre lesson. Jumping this time. 

Key points:
- Stay more upright on landing.  Keep core engaged.
- I am now sitting to the left. I have over corrected 
- Keep riding after the last fence
- Think 'up'more than forward. Energy not speed.

But it was ok really. She said she would make things more challenging next time for me as today was just a simple grid. It was quite reassuring that when I am on a co-operative and experienced horse, I CAN actually ride. I feel like a total beginner on Toby sometimes.


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## HufflyPuffly (9 October 2020)

I think young/ green horses can make us all feel like total beginners to be honest! It’s nice having one advanced and one young one to ride at the same time just to reassure yourself you can do it and get to the other side 😂!


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## Ambers Echo (22 October 2020)

Arrrgghhh today really was an 'I can't ride' kind of a day. I had a lesson with a biomechanics instructor. I've had her before and she;s great but Toby was stupid-fresh. To be fair to him, I was at Norton Disney for the weekend. Then crazy busy at work all week so he has not been ridden since last Thursday. And my YO is in one of her periodic 'horses must stay in to protect the fields' phases. And he's just had a clip. And I was riding in the dark under lights with weird shadows and it was ffffrrrrrrrreezing. So all things considered, he behaved very well. But he was rushing and everytime I softened the hand he'd run faster and I'd pull more and he'd lean on me as I waterskiied around the arena. Sigh. Plus trying to 'weight the outside seatbone' as your horse is doing the wall of death round the arena in canter was fun. Not. 

I know what I was meant to do: leg on, strong core, soft and forward hand. But it really was not happening for me today. 

Note to self: don't waste £45 on a lesson and then fail to ride for a week beforehand!!!!

Onwards.


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## Roxylola (22 October 2020)

Its not a waste, you don't learn when it's all going well. You've still learned, just couldn't put it on to practise today - its frustrating I know


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## Ambers Echo (8 November 2020)

Rather surprisingly, Ingestre lessons are ongoing! So now I'm sitting to the right again and horse is falling in to the left. 

Toby has a preference for going out of his right shoulder so I think he's training me to guard that shoulder with a stronger right leg which I'm doing by shifting right rather than by staying straight and just using the leg effectively. 

I asked how I could tell what my body was doing when clearly I can't do it just by feel. She said if I was to the right my left leg was slightly clamped on to balance me which meant I could not use it effectively to keep the horse out on the circle. There was less weight in the left stirrup and my left toes were more turned in. So to correct, correct the feet and evenly weight the stirrups and that brings me straight again.

Hands were better. I moved more with the horse so balance overall was better. But my basic position still needs improving so next lesson will be on the lunge. Ouch!


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## ycbm (8 November 2020)

Some things I do when I'm on my  own to to check or correct correct sitting to the right.

Stand in the stirrups with little leg contact and get them balanced. Sit down and try and stay where I sat. This is a Chris Bartle tip, apparently.

Learn a hand position by the side of my bum that will, for example, put a finger tip in a known place on an edge or a seam and allow me to judge whether I've got exactly the same amount of hand on either side of my bum.


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## Skib (8 November 2020)

A few comments. I too sit to the right. However it isnt something any rider does on purpose - in my case it arises from the degeneration in one's spine. Inevitable as one ages. One's right hip no longer opens properly and in my case our RI pointed out, it actualy hurts me if I put more weight on my left hip. It is human instinct to avoid the pain.
Even though I sit to the right I am well balanced on the horse but that is because my head tends to be held to the left (a weight, so compensatory).
It is something one needs to keep an eye on every time one rides and while one is riding (Is the saddle still central on the horse? are one's two knees equally placed on the saddle?) Riding Western and on a narrow shouldered horse, the slipping of the saddle is a great give away that one is sitting to the right.
It affects my balance on the left rein and I correct it by imagining and  stretching an elastic thread running from my right shoulder to my left knee.


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## milliepops (8 November 2020)

quick thought re toby training you.
I'd try to correct the running through the right shoulder not by using your right leg so much, as your right rein to straighten his shoulder. 
it might help you stop contorting yourself if you can train him to accept the outside rein as a straightening aid correctly


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## teapot (8 November 2020)

I'm wonky (to the the right) so I have spend a lot of my lessons looking left. It straightens me up.

Have you had a chiro or physio assessment? Worth knowing if there's a physical issue going on.


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## Ambers Echo (24 November 2020)

Lunge lesson today at Ingestre. How hard is it just to SIT on a horse. I feel like I gain a lot from schoolmaster lessons but while I improve over 45 minutes , I then practice doing it wrong again for 3 weeks so not sure how to overcome that!

When I was an ultra runner I had a lot of pain. I tried loads of approaches to sort it out - exercises, osteo, physio, gait analysis. The feedback was always that the muscles that should stabilise were wobbly and so the muscles that should power movement were recruited to stabilise and then got sore. And I was especially stiff where I whould be flexible or wobbly where I should be stable on the left.The gait analysis pointed out that I even clench my left fist and arm shoulder whenever I run in an effort to stabilise! After being told that, I noticed it EVERY SINGLE TIME I ran but never stopped doing it. I could relax the fist/arm for a few minutes but as soon as I stopped focusing on it, it just automatically clenched and tensed again, grabbing onto an imaginary support to try and stabilise myself. Why I have no idea. It's not as if I fell over when I wasn't doing it!

My lunge lesson showed me that I balance on the left rein whichever rein I am on and when my reins got taken away I balance by hooking my left thigh. Again on both reins. When I focused on it, I stopped and my balance was fine so I have no idea why I do that but its the same story: something weird is going on with my left hand side! And I am using the wrong muscles and joints for stability.

So if anyone knows a brand of training/exercise etc that addresses that kind of problem I'd be very keen to hear about it as it is getting very, very annoying!!


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## Roxylola (24 November 2020)

Have you had a look at the andy thomas stuff? Hes done some webinars recently, his hands on stuff is the bomb but his knowledge, and understanding of practical application is also fabulous


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## Ambers Echo (24 November 2020)

I've looked into him before but int the end went with Jo as she's half the price! But he does get glowing reviews.


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## Roxylola (24 November 2020)

Hes worth it, more effective than jo but hers is a more ongoing thing. You get instant dramatic results from him. But they dont last forever so his exercises then help. Jo works to make you more balanced generally. Andy's view is more that you do the exercise they have the effect for the period you ride and thats enough - we live in an asymmetric world you dont need to be symmetrical all the time. The webinars are available to rent, and theres another this Thursday worth 9.99 for sure. And he did a free Facebook live a few weeks ago.


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## daffy44 (24 November 2020)

I know I will sound like a broken record here, but for every rider, especially a wonky one, go and see Andy Thomas!  Things like pilates or yoga are excellent, but they improve you a tiny amount at a time, and are more of a ongoing thing.  Andy is the closest thing you will get to a magic wand with horses, he can assess you, and correct you in a very short period of time with a very little effort.  He will then give you exercises that you need to do before you get on and work a horse, so the long term affect is down to you, and the amount of work you put in.


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## milliepops (24 November 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Lunge lesson today at Ingestre. How hard is it just to SIT on a horse. I feel like I gain a lot from schoolmaster lessons but while I improve over 45 minutes , I then practice doing it wrong again for 3 weeks so not sure how to overcome that!

When I was an ultra runner I had a lot of pain. I tried loads of approaches to sort it out - exercises, osteo, physio, gait analysis. The feedback was always that the muscles that should stabilise were wobbly and so the muscles that should power movement were recruited to stabilise and then got sore. And I was especially stiff where I whould be flexible or wobbly where I should be stable on the left.The gait analysis pointed out that I even clench my left fist and arm shoulder whenever I run in an effort to stabilise! After being told that, I noticed it EVERY SINGLE TIME I ran but never stopped doing it. I could relax the fist/arm for a few minutes but as soon as I stopped focusing on it, it just automatically clenched and tensed again, grabbing onto an imaginary support to try and stabilise myself. Why I have no idea. It's not as if I fell over when I wasn't doing it!

My lunge lesson showed me that I balance on the left rein whichever rein I am on and when my reins got taken away I balance by hooking my left thigh. Again on both reins. When I focused on it, I stopped and my balance was fine so I have no idea why I do that but its the same story: something weird is going on with my left hand side! And I am using the wrong muscles and joints for stability.

So if anyone knows a brand of training/exercise etc that addresses that kind of problem I'd be very keen to hear about it as it is getting very, very annoying!!
		
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I Could not recommend a session with Andy Thomas more highly 
I bet he would help sort this out really quickly.

I get a lot of pain and I'm quite wonky, I'm hypermobile so developing stability is difficult and exhausting,  but Andy 's exercises switch on the right bits 5 mins before riding and its a magic wand in terms of my symmetry and effectiveness. And no pain!


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## Ambers Echo (24 November 2020)

Ok I'm sold.  I'll try and book in somewhere. X


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## Ambers Echo (11 December 2020)

Still waiting to hear back from Andy about a clinic. Everything is full so I am waiting for a cancellation slot....

In the meantime, Toby's jump saddle no longer fits him so my 'jump' lesson turned ointo a flat lesson and my jump trainer gave me the best dresage lesson I have ever had! I thought I knew what a 'forward' hand was but I didn't at all. I still find dressage very counter-intuitive. When the horse creates slack in the rein by hollowing it is so tempting to take the slack out by pulling back. Not by riding forward for the horse to fill the rein. But I am beginning finally, occasionally, to get it. 

Then had another biomechanics lesson and she felt I was much straighter and my contact was much better. So a combination of Ingestre on school masters and lessons on Toby is paying off. I hope!!!

Still sitting to the right though. I keep losing my left stirrup because my leg comes up as I weight the other one.

Lessons now:
- Ride rising trot with left stirrup only to force that leg to weight the stirrup.
- Ride with an elastic bungee round my wrists to keep my hands still, flexible and forward
- Turn with outside aids only. Really careful not to use the insuide rein for turning ever. In fact the inside rein needs ot pretty much do nothing at all at the moment because I use it far too much for far too many things.

Onwards!


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## McFluff (11 December 2020)

Have a look at Activate your Seat - she's on Instagram and Facebook.  She's a fab physio and posts lots of useful info about how to strengthen the right muscle groups and switch on the correct muscles for working (and she describes it much better than I do!).  Her exercises definitely help my asymmetry and my weaker areas.

But sounds like your journey is going well, it really is scary just how much there is to learn and improve to get even half decent!


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## LEC (11 December 2020)

Amber Prosecco said:



			- Turn with outside aids only. Really careful not to use the insuide rein for turning ever. In fact the inside rein needs ot pretty much do nothing at all at the moment because I use it far too much for far too many things.

Onwards!
		
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Easiest way to practice this is to ride with your reins in the outside hand. I do it a lot to check things.


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## Bernster (11 December 2020)

Ooh you and I have similar issues to work through. I’m going to have a play with a few of these too!


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## Barlow (13 December 2020)

Amber Prosecco said:



			Still waiting to hear back from Andy about a clinic. Everything is full so I am waiting for a cancellation slot....
		
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not sure where you are based but I am in touch with Andy/Nia to get a clinic up and running in the south west in the new year, his nearest clinic was a 4 hour drive each way from me and I just couldn’t justify a solo trip that far in December so thought I’d set about organising one myself!


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## LEC (14 December 2020)

Barlow said:



			not sure where you are based but I am in touch with Andy/Nia to get a clinic up and running in the south west in the new year, his nearest clinic was a 4 hour drive each way from me and I just couldn’t justify a solo trip that far in December so thought I’d set about organising one myself!
		
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I tried to organise one in the SW and they just kept cancelling on me. Very frustrating as had effectively two days booked with decent people to attend as well. Lockdown then came along and I gave up as just cannot be bothered with the hassle of it. TBH now they cannot travel abroad as much it might be easier to organise but I felt at the time because I wasn't a 'name' that I was just being palmed off.


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## Ambers Echo (24 December 2020)

Incredibly frustrating, deflating 'jump' lesson. Spent 30 minutes cantering squares and being told weight was too far left. Honestly it seems totally random whether I'm told I sit left or sit right. Clearly I never sit straight!

And trying to have him in the outside rein which is ok on right rein where my left hand is allowed to do something but feels impossible on the left as I just can't stop that hand trying to get in on the act. Didnt feel I improved really. There was just a missing link between the instruction 'hold the outside rein, give the inside rein forward' and my body being able to make that happen. It feels like being told 'pat your head and rub your tummy'. I can just about do it standing still with full attention on it but add in another motor skill as I have to when cantering squares and I just can't do it. It takes too much brain bandwidth! So feeling totally stuck  now.

Then some trot poles on an oval turning with weight/seat/leg aids. Never left the ground at all which is fine if I thought I'd learnt anything but it feels like all i learned was that I cant perform the basics and I can't see a way forward to fix these utterly basic issues either.

I've contacted Nia who knows I'm looking to book  onto an Andy Thomas clinic asap but has not got back to me. But hopefully soon.


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## HufflyPuffly (24 December 2020)

It’s hard when you come away feeling deflated 🙁.

I’d be tempted to do outside rein exercises in walk with no stirrups. Feeling both legs reaching down equally, feeling both seat bones really equally in the saddle and then walk squares and don’t even hold in the inside rein so you have nothing to accidentally use. You need to get the feel of turning using your outside rein yourself and the horse understanding it as an aid before moving up the gears.

It might be ‘basic’ but if you’ve never ridden this way ( I hadn’t either and it took an age to really nail, even now I’m guilty of sometimes creeping the inside rein in on the action!) then it’s still a new skill to master. You’ll get there ☺️ Keep going!


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## ycbm (24 December 2020)

Amber Prosecco said:



			Lessons now:
- Ride rising trot with left stirrup only to force that leg to weight the stirrup.
- Ride with an elastic bungee round my wrists to keep my hands still, flexible and forward
- Turn with outside aids only. Really careful not to use the insuide rein for turning ever. In fact the inside rein needs ot pretty much do nothing at all at the moment because I use it far too much for far too many things.
		
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I missed this post AE.

I don't like the sound of rising trot with one stirrup only.  None,  possibly,  but one just sounds completely wrong to me as an exercise to help you ride more equally on both sides. It's not really about weighting the stirrup,  it's about relaxing the leg down.  

The bungee strap around the wrists sounds completely dangerous.  Instead,  try holding a stick in both hands between your thumb and the rest of your hand. At least you can drop it if something goes wrong.  

I can hear your frustration.  You don't really sound as if you have found the right trainers yet.  Have you heard of Kate Earthy in Macclesfield?  She's extremely rider focused and a few sessions with her might provide a few lightbulb moments, they did me a few years back. 
.


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## LEC (24 December 2020)

Amber Prosecco said:



			Incredibly frustrating, deflating 'jump' lesson. Spent 30 minutes cantering squares and being told weight was too far left. Honestly it seems totally random whether I'm told I sit left or sit right. Clearly I never sit straight!

And trying to have him in the outside rein which is ok on right rein where my left hand is allowed to do something but feels impossible on the left as I just can't stop that hand trying to get in on the act. Didnt feel I improved really. There was just a missing link between the instruction 'hold the outside rein, give the inside rein forward' and my body being able to make that happen. It feels like being told 'pat your head and rub your tummy'. I can just about do it standing still with full attention on it but add in another motor skill as I have to when cantering squares and I just can't do it. It takes too much brain bandwidth! So feeling totally stuck  now.

Then some trot poles on an oval turning with weight/seat/leg aids. Never left the ground at all which is fine if I thought I'd learnt anything but it feels like all i learned was that I cant perform the basics and I can't see a way forward to fix these utterly basic issues either.

I've contacted Nia who knows I'm looking to book  onto an Andy Thomas clinic asap but has not got back to me. But hopefully soon.
		
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You can do a few things to check - get some white tape and put it in the middle of the cantle of your saddle and on the pommel then plonk on the saddle and get a footstool and stand behind the horse and see if the saddle natually goes one way or another. If you can get a helper. Get them to lead the horse away in walk and video in slow motion while standing on the footstool so you are at a good height and again look and see if it does it in walk. You could probably manage to do it on a circle on lunge as well if feeling really clever as should be a clear marker if someone else can be persuaded to stick them on lunge and you stand to outside. This will tell you if its the horse not helping.

Have you measured your stirrups with a tape measure? I would also do that to check they are the same length. I find even non stretch stirrups stetch particularly through the holes. People dont seem to do this anymore.

Simplest way if saddle is fairly straight is to remove your left stirrup. You will either fall off or sort yourself out and sit right. Again something I have spent many hours doing to make sure I evenly weight my stirrups. The easiest fix of all though is to think right shoulder down though which should shift your seat bone. But personally I would do a combination of both. The big problem with removing one stirrup and why you have to be careful is it will make you crooked quite quickly so I don't do much but enough to remind myself of the feeling.

With a stronger hand I have two techniques - frying pan hand which is where you hold the rein like a frying pan in the more dominant hand. This means you cannot block through the hand. The other thing is I will tap the neck with the stronger hand. So you have to release it the whole time. It takes a lot of practice. I have probably spent two years making my right hand less dominant and thus blocking that side.

What you are going through is normal - conscious incompetence. The problem is you are now working to fix issues and its frustrating and deflating as a long process especially when its about 'feel'. Last year my process goal was my jumping position. It took a year to get it sorted and I have been riding for 30 years. This year its about the jumping contact which is very frustrating as changes with every horse but I am determined to get softer hands and stopping myself sticking out my elbows is no1 action!!


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## Roxylola (24 December 2020)

Can you walk a square on the left rein? If its going wrong at canter I'd slow down and build up to it. More time to think in walk


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## milliepops (24 December 2020)

Amber Prosecco said:



			Incredibly frustrating, deflating 'jump' lesson. Spent 30 minutes cantering squares and being told weight was too far left. Honestly it seems totally random whether I'm told I sit left or sit right. Clearly I never sit straight!

And trying to have him in the outside rein which is ok on right rein where my left hand is allowed to do something but feels impossible on the left as I just can't stop that hand trying to get in on the act. Didnt feel I improved really. There was just a missing link between the instruction 'hold the outside rein, give the inside rein forward' and my body being able to make that happen. It feels like being told 'pat your head and rub your tummy'. I can just about do it standing still with full attention on it but add in another motor skill as I have to when cantering squares and I just can't do it. It takes too much brain bandwidth! So feeling totally stuck  now.

Then some trot poles on an oval turning with weight/seat/leg aids. Never left the ground at all which is fine if I thought I'd learnt anything but it feels like all i learned was that I cant perform the basics and I can't see a way forward to fix these utterly basic issues either.

I've contacted Nia who knows I'm looking to book  onto an Andy Thomas clinic asap but has not got back to me. But hopefully soon.
		
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I know I'm banging on but I still think Andy would make a big difference to your sitting one way or the other, and possibly also to the hand thing. not because he can fix the hand itself but it wouldn't be a surprise if an asymmetry or tightness somewhere is making it really difficult for your left hand to be independent. a bit like how my left leg isn't weak, it's my right hand side tightness that means it can't be effective because my own body is blocking the use of it and i do weird things to try and counteract that. 

Exercises to force yourself to do something different are helpful for making you aware of something but don't always give you the tool to deal with it, particularly if it's rooted in a pattern of moving or using your body that you possibly don't even know about.

I reckon the left hand thing is partly habit of drawing the hand back and partly rooted in a general difficulty around having an independent seat and you probably need to tackle both ends of that to crack it.  in the meantime training a different way of using the hand is a good idea, mine tends to go down so I consciously put it up now and then to free it up again.

I know it's all hugely frustrating particularly when it must feel like you're going backwards sometimes but this is the stuff that is fundamental to all disciplines and all of us have to work really hard at them

(i would say the bungee round the wrists can be really useful to get you to engage your core, i do that sometimes and it magically seems to make me actually ride like a rider instead of a person who can sit on a horse, plus stops wayward hands because you have to use them as a pair.  it does work but has to be in a safe environment.  ycbm my bungee allows hands to be a normal width apart, the idea is that you maintain a tension in the bungee which stops you moving one hand back or forth, up or down etc and the act of holding your hands slightly apart and still seems to do something amazing to your seat)


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## Bernster (24 December 2020)

ooh I like your post LEC, that made a lot of sense to me.  I’ve def had lessons where I’ve felt I’ve gone backwards or that I can’t ride at all, but it’s part of breaking down what I’m doing wrong and correcting it - conscious incompetence.

I give away my right hand on the left rein and atm I have to check it all the time as I don’t realise I’m doing it.  Ins has me using a neck strap to steady my outside hand, and although I feel like a beginner all over again, it’s working !

Also agree with MP, there’s a combo of things with me and it’s my tight left leg and hip, working with a wayward right hand and arm.

And Ive said this before but blimey, this riding malarkey is not easy!!


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## LEC (24 December 2020)

Bernster said:



			ooh I like your post LEC, that made a lot of sense to me.  I’ve def had lessons where I’ve felt I’ve gone backwards or that I can’t ride at all, but it’s part of breaking down what I’m doing wrong and correcting it - conscious incompetence.

I give away my right hand on the left rein and atm I have to check it all the time as I don’t realise I’m doing it.  Ins has me using a neck strap to steady my outside hand, and although I feel like a beginner all over again, it’s working !

Also agree with MP, there’s a combo of things with me and it’s my tight left leg and hip, working with a wayward right hand and arm.

And Ive said this before but blimey, this riding malarkey is not easy!!
		
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The four stages are:


*Unconscious incompetence* The individual does not understand or know how to do something and does not necessarily recognize the deficit. They may deny the usefulness of the skill. The individual must recognize their own incompetence, and the value of the new skill, before moving on to the next stage. The length of time an individual spends in this stage depends on the strength of the stimulus to learn.
*Conscious incompetence* Though the individual does not understand or know how to do something, they recognize the deficit, as well as the value of a new skill in addressing the deficit. The making of mistakes can be integral to the learning process at this stage.
*Conscious competence* The individual understands or knows how to do something. However, demonstrating the skill or knowledge requires concentration. It may be broken down into steps, and there is heavy conscious involvement in executing the new skill.
*Unconscious competence* The individual has had so much practice with a skill that it has become "second nature" and can be performed easily. As a result, the skill can be performed while executing another task. The individual may be able to teach it to others, depending upon how and when it was learned.
I think the issue with riding is you vere between different stages because its such a massive skillset and the variables change (horse, discipline etc). Rowing for instance does not require half the skillset so you can aquire an international skillset in a much shorter time.


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## Ambers Echo (24 December 2020)

Thanks so much everyone. Lots to ponder. LEC I'd forgotten about those stages and of course I'm 1 step further on than unconscious incompetence which is something 
It's a very useful framework to recognize the need to keep on buggering on and not lose heart.

Actually my usual RI is fab - just had a chat to her and she reminded me that I can go out and do fun stuff in between working on the limiters. Its important for Toby not just to endlessly drill. And I realise now that in all my lessons with her she works for a while on the things I find hard and then we do things Toby feel good about and cycle between the 2 so we both end the lessons feeling like we've learned something and also that we have achieved something.

Onwards!


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## Ambers Echo (24 December 2020)

Milliepops I am hounding poor Andy and Nia!! I will book on asap but they've not offered any dates. I live in hope!


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## milliepops (24 December 2020)

probably all the new lockdown stuff getting in the way. I lost my last appt when Wales went into lockdown in the autumn because I couldn't go over the border.


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## teapot (24 December 2020)

Amber Prosecco said:



			Incredibly frustrating, deflating 'jump' lesson. Spent 30 minutes cantering squares and being told weight was too far left. Honestly it seems totally random whether I'm told I sit left or sit right. Clearly I never sit straight!

And trying to have him in the outside rein which is ok on right rein where my left hand is allowed to do something but feels impossible on the left as I just can't stop that hand trying to get in on the act. Didnt feel I improved really. There was just a missing link between the instruction 'hold the outside rein, give the inside rein forward' and my body being able to make that happen. It feels like being told 'pat your head and rub your tummy'. I can just about do it standing still with full attention on it but add in another motor skill as I have to when cantering squares and I just can't do it. It takes too much brain bandwidth! So feeling totally stuck  now.

Then some trot poles on an oval turning with weight/seat/leg aids. Never left the ground at all which is fine if I thought I'd learnt anything but it feels like all i learned was that I cant perform the basics and I can't see a way forward to fix these utterly basic issues either.

I've contacted Nia who knows I'm looking to book  onto an Andy Thomas clinic asap but has not got back to me. But hopefully soon.
		
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Don't feel disheartended, re-learning how to ride 'correctly' is hard. Your lessons sound very similar to mine and I've learnt upon 'relearning how to ride' this year:

- jump lessons are not about jumping
- if you're not straight and 100% effective, and can't do it in walk, you don't get to do anything else, which comes down to
- fitness, including suppleness and muscle tone

Out of interest, do your hands become better if you stop thinking/distracted by something and just let it happen? Ie ride by feel, not brain as actually that sounds more like a mental block, than a physical one. The ultimate aim being you'll give which hand is needed subconsciously when riding.


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## Ambers Echo (26 March 2021)

And then everything stopped.... But I do finally have an Andy T date in the diary! Hurrah.

In other news, I am giving up on Dressage Rider Training. It was a mix of core, strength and yoga. I got stronger and better at yoga but there seemed to be almost no crossover to riding at all.

Having also started equipilates, I am even wondering if it's actively unhelful to me. Eg she does core strength work outs when you are gripping a foam roller between your thighs with full effort because 'you need strong thighs to stay stable in the saddle'. But gripping for dear life to stay stable is not ideal. And she is always wanting you to 'squeeze the bottom' whereas the equipilates lifts the pelvis and pulls navel to spine but stresses to not tighten up the bottom at the same time. So they appear to contradict each other. And having consistently done DRT for absolutely ages with no obvious benefit, I am going to ditch it and focus on equipilates more.


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## Roxylola (26 March 2021)

I'm going to see Andy in May at Knowsley. I'd booked for Fosshey originally before lockdown but I couldn't get time off for their rescheduled one. 
I'm super excited for it.
I've done equipilates sporadically and I have noticed similarities to some of Andy's exercises and definitely felt benefit of it


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## milliepops (26 March 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			And then everything stopped.... But I do finally have an Andy T date in the diary! Hurrah.

In other news, I am giving up on Dressage Rider Training. It was a mix of core, strength and yoga. I got stronger and better at yoga but there seemed to be almost no crossover to riding at all.

Having also started equipilates, I am even wondering if it's actively unhelful to me. Eg she does core strength work outs when you are gripping a foam roller between your thighs with full effort because 'you need strong thighs to stay stable in the saddle'. But gripping for dear life to stay stable is not ideal. And she is always wanting you to 'squeeze the bottom' whereas the equipilates lifts the pelvis and pulls navel to spine but stresses to not tighten up the bottom at the same time. So they appear to contradict each other. And having consistently done DRT for absolutely ages with no obvious benefit, I am going to ditch it and focus on equipilates more.
		
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that's interesting. I found the DRT offputting purely because of the upfront cost but I'm pleased to hear I'm not missing out, haha.  I also don't find yoga as useful as pilates personally, i'm too bendy already and it encourages me to exaggerate that.

who are you doing equipilates with? I've been doing Jo Titterton's classes and find a direct link between those and noticing my riding improving (yay left hand) , agree with Roxy, there's quite a crossover with her activation stuff and the exercises Andy gave me which is helpul particularly as I don't have anywhere to do my clam exercise at the yard currently, so can draw from Jo's things instead before riding.

I have a friend doing Dressurfit which she thinks is really good, again the £££ upfront for a long course put me off but that seems quite tailored to the individual which seems sensible.


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## Ambers Echo (26 March 2021)

I'm doing equipolates with Jo as well. I was having monthly lessons with her at our yard which are starting again in May. My RI has a lesson with her every month too. And my RI did a train the trainers course with Andy. So I feel like I'm on the same page as everyone I'm working with now. 

I had a different regular RI for ages and she supported me all the way through just beginning to jump Amber to BE. But I feel like the newer trainer is addressing root causes more. She's done amazing things for Katie's riding. I'm hoping for similar improvements myself but god its taking a long time! Still if I keep at it, at some point something has to click into place. Surely! 

Problem is you can only ride for a few hours a week which doesn't really feel enough. I need some spare horses to practice on 😂


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## milliepops (26 March 2021)

I really miss having 2 to ride for exactly that reason.
are you doing the rider performance or just the equipilates? i'm finding they complement each other really well although it's a lot to fit into the week with work and 7 horses


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## Ambers Echo (26 March 2021)

Just Equipolates and HIIT. I've been playing about with equipilates for a while now but DRT took up a lot of time. So nothing consistent. But from April I'll do 5 classes a week.


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## Ambers Echo (26 March 2021)

I have nicked Dolly a couple while Toby has been away. But Katie is competing in 2 weeks so it didn't really feel fair to mess about too much, riding her in a different way. So I just did fitness work with her. 

 But I guess all saddle time helps to an extent.


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## Ambers Echo (9 January 2022)

Revisting this thread as had an utterly deflating ride yesterday from an 'I can't ride' POV. I was thrilled with Lottie but felt totally crap about my riding. Again. Interestingly I re-read the whole thread and saw that the last time I felt this dispirited and hopeless was in Dec after a lesson with the same instructor. That was the last time she taught me. She obviously really, really does not like how I sit on a horse! I rate her, I really do. And she is the one who got me from X-poles to technical BE100 lines in training on Amber. But I felt cr@p after both those lessons with no clear plan of how to improve! So either I need to process her feedback differently or find a way to put what she is teaching into practice. Maybe I should email her and just say I don't know how to fix the flaws she is identifying? She did give me an exercise but that made me feel worse as she told me to practice standing in the stirrups in walk to improve my balance - warning that at first I would need to sit every few strides. I was given this exercise YEARS ago and I can stand up in balance for as long as I feel like in walk and trot. So the fact that she thought I would struggle with that was a bit depressing. And begs the question - why does my balance look so bad when if you make me show balance (eg lunge lessons with no stirrups and reins, standing up etc) then I am in balance. Why don't the skills these exercises are supposed to teach translate to actual real world riding?

Anyway - my Ingestre lessons were halted as they only taught students for ages and have only recently re-started. I am now there every Thursday and have ridden some lovely horses. I get ok feedback from the instructor there so I do think I have improved:

- More balanced
- Straighter
- More feel for what is happening underneath me.

But in videos I can see that my old bug bears are still there - bouncing hands and overuse of the left rein. 

So back to the drawing board. I plan to start updating again as  think writing stuff down after lessons helps keep me focused plus I have a long list of tips from this thread that I am going to work on again. So thank-you everyone!


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## Pearlsasinger (9 January 2022)

Just identifying faults, without giving you the tools to correct them doesn't make her a good instructor.  I would find someone who can actually help you.


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## LEC (9 January 2022)

I think you need to have more dialogue when you are riding. Question the trainer more and be quicker to go this isn’t working for me, next tool to help me process it. I don’t think I really stop talking in my lessons - but I am external with my thought processes or you need to allow more breathing space in your lessons to talk things through. 

Saying that I have really struggled with my arms/contact. With Mark Phillips I really had it but he just corrected me and it was only recently I worked out why watching Olympia and top class sjing. So now have a  blueprint in my mind. I have spent years being told have a softer arm (when they mean elbow) and keep hands down which is frankly counterintuitive.

I watch a lot of my videos back to understand feel vs what it looks like. My trainer now actually does it in the moment to show good and bad so you can match the feel.

The conscious competent stage is the hardest. Dr I find it really easy. Jumping I am inept. Marginal gains, the whole time which are hard to come by. I see Caroline Moore a bit and frankly her lessons terrify me in a good way. Massive holes are normally found and I get a lot of feedback. I can come away despairing and don’t have enough time to pick her brain but I then work really hard to resolve them. I am lucky as get my Caroline lessons videoed so watch them back over and over again.

Finally, I have seen one of my trainers for 14 years and on the 2 point position out the saddle thing she makes me do it every now and again and is slightly annoying about it but I just suck it up.


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## Ambers Echo (9 January 2022)

Video feedback is a good idea. I have a PIVO and I use it for schooling but I might tape a lesson. x


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## teapot (9 January 2022)

I'd sack off the one who leaves you feeling dispirited and hopeless, you'll end up dreading the lessons. It's meant to be fun (as HHO kindly reminded me last year!)

Videos, even in situ (so you stop for two mins a lesson, doesn't matter) really help me, as does chatting away!


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## ycbm (9 January 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			So either I need to process her feedback differently or find a way to put what she is teaching into practice.
		
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Or dump the trainer.


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## Marigold4 (9 January 2022)

A game changer for me  and bringing back my left hand was watching a video by Heather Moffatt on her online dressage course. It's called something like "how to use the reins". Once I'd got the hang of the idea that you only need to use the fingers instead of your whole hand, my hands were MUCH steadier and my horse's jaw much more relaxed. I had never really been taught this and it has made SUCH a difference to get rid of my uneducated preconceived ideas of what I should be doing with my hands.


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## Skib (9 January 2022)

Only the 4th finger really. As Mark Rashid said, the most sensitive part pof the human linked to the most sensitive part of the horse. Our UK RI used to say, imagne a newly hatched chick in our hands.

I have to say this can be hard with plastic type RS reins. I bought new leather reins for my share horse. No grip. She stopped leaning on the reins for a start.


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## milliepops (9 January 2022)

for me i think overcoming handiness/moving hands is about an independent seat and then getting a good connection down the rein. independent seat helps the bouncing. and once you have that really good contact, you don't particularly need to change anything significantly (no need to fiddle) and you won't want to drop it either (helps any losing and picking up reins issues)

is the left rein issue just on one specific horse or do you have that problem on the RS horses too?


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## Marigold4 (9 January 2022)

Skib said:



			Only the 4th finger really. As Mark Rashid said, the most sensitive part pof the human linked to the most sensitive part of the horse. Our UK RI used to say, imagne a newly hatched chick in our hands.

I have to say this can be hard with plastic type RS reins. I bought new leather reins for my share horse. No grip. She stopped leaning on the reins for a start.
		
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The Heather Moffatt/ classical training is not just 4th finger. It's a bit different. It's also about NEVER moving your hand (s) back


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## Ambers Echo (9 January 2022)

milliepops said:



			for me i think overcoming handiness/moving hands is about an independent seat and then getting a good connection down the rein. independent seat helps the bouncing. and once you have that really good contact, you don't particularly need to change anything significantly (no need to fiddle) and you won't want to drop it either (helps any losing and picking up reins issues)

is the left rein issue just on one specific horse or do you have that problem on the RS horses too?
		
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I’m better on the Ingestre horses. I am being given nice horses to ride - stage 3+ horses. My dressage RI has ridden Lottie and says she does fall in on the left - thought to be injury related. She does not want to travel straight on the left. So I think my issues are highlighted by her rather than masked by the RS horse x


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## milliepops (9 January 2022)

Falling in on the left rein suggests insufficient connection to the right rein, so I would try to focus more on the contact in the right hand which should help the left hand to settle down


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## teapot (9 January 2022)

Are you same if you cross your reins over @Ambers Echo ? ie is it the same when your left rein is in your right hand?


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## ycbm (9 January 2022)

Skib said:



			. As Mark Rashid said, *the most sensitive part of the human* [4th finger] linked to the most sensitive part of the horse.
		
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If Mark really does say this then I think he might need to study a little more human anatomy 🤣


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## Roxylola (9 January 2022)

So, on the "stand up" I'm guessing she's seeing your lower leg swinging back, which is often a nasty habit of mine when I feel like I'm not really getting a connection and the inside hind isn't pushing to my outside rein. It's still a bad habit, but I know where it comes from at least


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## Ambers Echo (10 January 2022)

I'm trying to make sense of the feedback. I have a new dressage trainer who also rides Lottie and says she has a tendency to run on and take over. She half halts every few strides and an exercise we do a lot is slow trot, move on, slow, move on etc using leg and seat half halts and keeping hands still. She really listens and comes back to me when I squeeze her with my upper thigh and bum. It works much better than giving the reins a squeeze. But in the XC lesson I was being told to 'stop gripping' as I think the assumption was I was gripping with my thighs to stay on not to slow her down. I had comments about balance, seat and gripping with my legs. And this in particular is what made me feel so frustrated because the tool that I was pleased I had developed was now being taken away - in fact when I said what I was trying to do I was told I was making her worse - that I was in a driving seat or 'toilet' seat and and I needed to sit  more centrally in the saddle, much lighter and stop gripping.

In flat lessons she gets very onward bound and I can feel that I am losing position. But if I still sit and squeezewith thighs with every stride (which yes I can see does make me stick my arse out behind!) she DOES listen to that and when she stops bogging off with me I can sort the position out again. I do waterski for a few strides. The next step is to be able to half halt a running off horse without losing position at the same time. And then to stop her running off in the first place. But I felt that we were on the way to a solution. But now I just feel embarrassed. In fairness to the RI, she was encouraging and supportive. She is really nice and I like her a lot. And I have just remembered she taught at camp which was a good lesson too. But I have had lessons where what I am told to do turns a key and we improve. That one didn't. And nor did the cantering squares one. And neither lesson left me with exercises to do or homework I think would be useful. So I will try someone new. Sometimes getting the right fit for the rider AND the horse is hard.

Anyway, have a pic of the keen bean!


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## Bernster (10 January 2022)

Obv we’re all dealing with different things so it’s tricky to be that helpful online. That said, I had a period when I got quite confused and my training wasn’t working when I had too many trainers and they were teaching me different things. Could that be happening with you?

I am now much more careful about who I train with and try to stick to a very small number who provide a more consistent method of training. It’s hard as it means I miss out on clinics and venues that I’d like to visit but I have decided that, if I want to go somewhere, I’ll book it myself with my preferred trainer instead.

I’ve also been dealing with Bertie rushing, losing balance and getting onward bound in flatwork.  I brace in the downward transition and have a tendency to try to pull on the reins, which obv makes it worse.  It’s taking me a while to unravel that and do something else instead. Still not cracked it but it’s def getting better!


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## Ambers Echo (10 January 2022)

It is a good idea to limit input I think and a while ago I did decide to stop going all over the place for clinics. Having said that, I have had some great 1 offs (eg Nicola Wilson, Gemma Tattersall) who were just brilliant. But I do need different trainers for dressage and jumping. Some do it all but I love my dressage trainer (who is pure dressage not eventing). So iI need to find a regular jump  trainer and get some consistency. I am also dependent on people who train at Somerford as I really want tyo make use of the XC technical arena. Sadly my usual SJ person just does not go there.


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## Bernster (10 January 2022)

Similar here. I have a regular flatwork trainer at the yard. She does teach all disciplines but I don’t jump that often at the yard and she has limited weekend availability.  I have 2 jump instructors currently, one who is new to me and travels around, and one who I visit at her lovely big indoor school.  Those two are coincidently both Centre 10 coaches which may explain why they have a similar approach.  Hopefully that set up will work ok for me but I’ll see as this year progresses.


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## oldie48 (10 January 2022)

Please ditch the trainer who makes you feel "dispirited", honestly, really good trainers don't try to change too much at a time, they have the ability to "see" the one thing that will make a difference and focus on that. They can also weigh up the rider and appreciate what can be changed and what has to be worked around. FWIW I find it so much easier to sit well on a horse that is going well ie soft in the back, on the aids, supple in the neck and straight but put me on a horse that is tight or behind the leg and I bounce around with my hands, tip forward and generally look a bit of a mess. I also loathe the pronouncements of some illustrious riders as few pretty competent riders would measure up to their expectations of what makes a "good" rider, sometimes there's a huge difference between an effective rider and one that looks pretty. I had some lessons with someone who did "centred riding", Sally Swift etc and she went to training with Charles De Kunfy. Her mantra was if you sit ride the horse goes well. I had a tricky lazy git, who I struggled with and after every session I felt so fed up because she made me feel it was my fault htat he didn't go well. I asked her to sit on him, she kept forgetting her hat but eventually I got her aboard and much to my amazement, she couldn't get him to canter and she even struggled to keep him going in trot. That was my last lesson with her. Find a new trainer. xx


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## Roxylola (10 January 2022)

The moment of tensing the thigh and buttock might work for pure dressage but I think there is a risk of it putting you out of balance if you're using that approaching a fence. I can't offer a solution really other than finding a different aid but I did wonder if that had come from someone pure dressage 🤔


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## LEC (10 January 2022)

I would ask your trainer if they think you are fighting the saddle for jumping? You are pushed quite far back and it naturally wants to put you in a driving seat and have a tighter thigh.


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## Ambers Echo (10 January 2022)

oldie48 said:



			Her mantra was if you sit ride the horse goes well. I had a tricky lazy git, who I struggled with and after every session I felt so fed up because she made me feel it was my fault htat he didn't go well. I asked her to sit on him, she kept forgetting her hat but eventually I got her aboard and much to my amazement, she couldn't get him to canter and she even struggled to keep him going in trot. That was my last lesson with her. Find a new trainer. xx
		
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Yes! I leave Ingestre thinking I CAN ride and then I get on a trickier, less educated horse and feel I really can't. Toby made me feel like a complete beginner at times


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## Ambers Echo (10 January 2022)

Roxylola said:



			The moment of tensing the thigh and buttock might work for pure dressage but I think there is a risk of it putting you out of balance if you're using that approaching a fence. I can't offer a solution really other than finding a different aid but I did wonder if that had come from someone pure dressage 🤔
		
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Oh that;s interesting. It would make sense that different discpline and saddle needs different approaches. And maybe I did look all over the place trying that in the wrong place. Incidentally it was not on the approach a fence  but on the flat between fences but I can still see why the saddle might not lend itself tho that aid really. Does there ever get to a point where you can just feel what to do/not to do. I am so literal. If I am told 'squeeze the thigh to slow down' I just will. I won't think 'that won't work here' or sense wrong place/wrong time. Though I guess if I spent more time on it I would begin to realise she is not responsing well to it?

 Thanks!


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## Ambers Echo (10 January 2022)

LEC said:



			I would ask your trainer if they think you are fighting the saddle for jumping? You are pushed quite far back and it naturally wants to put you in a driving seat and have a tighter thigh.
		
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Something else to think about. Thanks x


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## j1ffy (10 January 2022)

I agree with others who say move on from the trainer who is draining your confidence. I like a fairly tough and direct trainer but they have to be able to be constructive and give 'homework'. 

Re: the rushing problem, I read an article recently that talked about the difference in half-halt for dressage vs. jumping but I can't find it for the life of me! I thought it might have been George Morris but I can only find a few words in articles featuring him, so maybe it was WFP or Christopher Burton. The premise was that the dressage half-halt uses the seat / thighs but a half-halt when jumping can't, so it has to rely on body weight and often you need to train from the rein first and sensitise to the body weight. Sorry I can't find the article


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## Tiddlypom (10 January 2022)

Going back to getting your lessons videoed- yes, do. My riding improved hugely once I had my lessons videoed by my long suffering OH.

Looking back on the whole session afterwards from the instructor's eye view is invaluable. Plus you may see that what you 'felt' was happening at a particular moment wasn't how it looked at all - whether that be for good or for bad.

Videoing tips. It's going back a bit but I've done a fair bit of videoing of training sessions. A camcorder set up on a suitable tripod works the best for longer sessions of more than a few minutes (assuming lesson is in a relatively confined area such as an arena). The footage is much steadier than if hand held, and it's much less tiring for the camcorder operator, who can just concentrate on keeping the subject in frame at an appropriate zoom range.

A decent microphone is needed to pick up the trainer's comments.


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## Ambers Echo (10 January 2022)

j1ffy said:



			I agree with others who say move on from the trainer who is draining your confidence. I like a fairly tough and direct trainer but they have to be able to be constructive and give 'homework'.

Re: the rushing problem, I read an article recently that talked about the difference in half-halt for dressage vs. jumping but I can't find it for the life of me! I thought it might have been George Morris but I can only find a few words in articles featuring him, so maybe it was WFP or Christopher Burton. The premise was that the dressage half-halt uses the seat / thighs but a half-halt when jumping can't, so it has to rely on body weight and often you need to train from the rein first and sensitise to the body weight. Sorry I can't find the article 

Click to expand...


Ok that actually fits really well with what the trainer was saying. I think it was just a case of miscommunication then? I tried something that didn't work at all as it was an aid that was never going to translate from dressage - RI assumed I was gripping to avoid falling off/ because my seat us too unbalanced- and gave advice based on that reading of what I was doing? That actually makes her feedback  and homework make more sense from her POV. And I can just ditch the half halt and try something different next time.


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## j1ffy (10 January 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Ok that actually fits really well with what the trainer was saying. I think it was just a case of miscommunication then? I tried something that didn't work at all as it was an aid that was never going to translate from dressage - RI assumed I was gripping to avoid falling off/ because my seat us too unbalanced- and gave advice based on that reading of what I was doing? That actually makes her feedback  and homework make more sense from her POV. And I can just ditch the half halt and try something different next time.
		
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Possibly, but it still sounds like the RI could have been more constructive and asked you more questions about what you were trying to achieve - it's not as if you're a complete novice!

Are you doing jumping lessons at Ingestre as well as flatwork? I've done some really good flatwork lessons recently at Prestige, but I haven't jumped in ages so was thinking of doing some jump lessons. I suspect I will have all the same challenges as you but three-fold! The position and weight distribution feels so different in a jump saddle, I'm going to be all over the place


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## milliepops (10 January 2022)

j1ffy said:



			I agree with others who say move on from the trainer who is draining your confidence. I like a fairly tough and direct trainer but they have to be able to be constructive and give 'homework'.

Re: the rushing problem, I read an article recently that talked about the difference in half-halt for dressage vs. jumping but I can't find it for the life of me! I thought it might have been George Morris but I can only find a few words in articles featuring him, so maybe it was WFP or Christopher Burton. The premise was that the dressage half-halt uses the seat / thighs but a half-halt when jumping can't, so it has to rely on body weight and often you need to train from the rein first and sensitise to the body weight. Sorry I can't find the article 

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it's a long time since i had anything that jumped to any level but this makes sense to me. I don't half halt on the flat by gripping but by "stopping" my seat, but i couldn't do that in 2 point or a light seat, its more about bringing your whole self back a bit (and yeah, using the rein when necessary).

i agree there's probably way too much different information coming in at once here. if the RS horses make you feel like you can ride, and the training there makes sense, can you take lottie there? it feels like you need to get a basis of sound understanding and competence between you before having nice trips out with big names or amazing facilities. trying to do it all at once seems to be making it all a lot harder.


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## Roxylola (10 January 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Oh that;s interesting. It would make sense that different discpline and saddle needs different approaches. And maybe I did look all over the place trying that in the wrong place. Incidentally it was not on the approach a fence  but on the flat between fences but I can still see why the saddle might not lend itself tho that aid really. Does there ever get to a point where you can just feel what to do/not to do. I am so literal. If I am told 'squeeze the thigh to slow down' I just will. I won't think 'that won't work here' or sense wrong place/wrong time. Though I guess if I spent more time on it I would begin to realise she is not responsing well to it?

Thanks!
		
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Um, yes, and no. You're the type that will always want to analyse things so while you're unconscious competence will grow I think you'll forever be picking the why apart. Riding different horses will help build your tool kit, its then finding the confidence to experiment with those tools 
Have you considered taking lottie to ingestre for a lesson or two there? Rob I know is super practical and good at making riders understand what's working and why, hes also not overly picky- if its working but looks a bit rough he's not too fussy about that.
Fwiw, and you probably know - the trainer in question does sometimes have nick from meadow productions with her to do you a training and best bits video. I've had a couple that have been fab. If you stick with her it might be worth asking if she has any dates planned with him, or even emailing him to ask if he could do anything.


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## Ambers Echo (10 January 2022)

Thanks for all the feedback.  Lottie was actually very well behaved and I have now made sense of what happened and why the feedback felt so discouraging. So I am feeling much more positive. Thanks LEC, J1ffy and Roxylola in particular for successfully managing to translate lesson instructions when you weren't even there! Very helpful (and impressive!)


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## Roxylola (10 January 2022)

I've got an advantage that I know you, the trainer, and I've seen you ride - I'm not as black magic as it may seem 😆


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## Skib (10 January 2022)

milliepops said:



			"stopping" my seat
		
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The stopping with your seat can be done with your legs (reducing swing of barrel) when your seat is out of the saddle. That is what we were taught.
As an adult learner, I remember the exercises in both trot and canter. Done mainly out hacking.
Trot rising, trott sitting and trot in light seat, keeping the rhythm.
And canter in forward seat, then sitting without slowing the canter.


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## milliepops (10 January 2022)

Yep, many roads to rome & all that   i never find it that helpful to think of closing my legs to slow a horse as it can easily push you off your seat if the horse is not that sensitive.  it sounds like its making OP tend towards gripping instead of just giving an aid, that, or the horse requires too much input at this stage for an aid like that to NOT lead to rider clamping  from OPs photos it appears that more softness is needed in the hips/knees so i am just thinking personally if that was me i would work towards using my upper body to aid and keep the seat and lower body a bit stiller and more draped/secure.  though there are, obviously, many ways of reaching the same end.


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## Ambers Echo (13 January 2022)

Interesting lesson at Ingestre. I was in a group and we all just got given a horse and told to 'improve it' riding in open order. We had to warm up w/t/c for a few minutes then decide what horse needed to work on and get on with it. Zero instruction beyond that. I found the lack of instructrion really disconcerting but the horse did improve loads in the session. Started stiff and behind the leg, ended supple, swinging and moving really nicely in a nice frame. Every so often we had to stop and explain what we were doing and why. So I was happy with that and I think having to think for myself is probably going to be very helpful though I did spend the first 20 minutes thinking HELP!


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## CanteringCarrot (13 January 2022)

That's an interesting lesson. I think it might encourage riders to think more and perhaps rely on/develop their feeling for the horse.


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## teapot (13 January 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Interesting lesson at Ingestre. I was in a group and we all just got given a horse and told to 'improve it' riding in open order. We had to warm up w/t/c for a few minutes then decide what horse needed to work on and get on with it. Zero instruction beyond that. I found the lack of instructrion really disconcerting but the horse did improve loads in the session. Started stiff and behind the leg, ended supple, swinging and moving really nicely in a nice frame. Every so often we had to stop and explain what we were doing and why. So I was happy with that and I think having to think for myself is probably going to be very helpful though I did spend the first 20 minutes thinking HELP!
		
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Sounds beneficial!


I call it supervised schooling - it's a very good technique if you're used to coaches talking non stop, or not used to riding different horses and simply having to crack on with improving while testing your own feel/knowledge out.


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## milliepops (13 January 2022)

I did a lot of that at the RS when doing my exams. I was riding lots of different horses independently in my job at the time so it came pretty naturally to just hop on and assess what was going on, thats what we do every day on our own horses after all. was it being watched in a lesson environment that made you feel disconcerted AE?


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## Ambers Echo (13 January 2022)

I am not great at schooling on my own anyway. I tend to have lessons, then get given homework which I practice till the next lesson. Which is ridiculous because I train my horses in other ways and am very happy to think through gaps and to try and fill them. I’ve taught Lottie to be caught, to drop her head for the bridle, to stand still at the mounting block, to lead politely, to lunge off voice aids. And I’ve set up poles exercises keep her focused and listening instead of thinking ‘poles = stress and speed’. I am confident in working with a horse’s brain. I just don’t have the confidence to feel what to do ‘technically’ if that makes sense. But forced to answer questions on ‘how does he feel, which rein is better, what does he need’ I could do it so I need to have more faith in my own instincts I think.


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## milliepops (13 January 2022)

it's something that gets better with practice. so that sounds like a really worthwhile lesson!


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## Marigold4 (14 January 2022)

My riding improved a lot after I stopped lessons and started thinking for myself - with the help of books and video online courses, and videos of myself. I ride much more by feel now and listen to feedback from my horse.  Trust yourself.


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## scats (16 January 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Interesting lesson at Ingestre. I was in a group and we all just got given a horse and told to 'improve it' riding in open order. We had to warm up w/t/c for a few minutes then decide what horse needed to work on and get on with it. Zero instruction beyond that. I found the lack of instructrion really disconcerting but the horse did improve loads in the session. Started stiff and behind the leg, ended supple, swinging and moving really nicely in a nice frame. Every so often we had to stop and explain what we were doing and why. So I was happy with that and I think having to think for myself is probably going to be very helpful though I did spend the first 20 minutes thinking HELP!
		
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That sounds like a really helpful session.  Riding different horses without instruction is great because it helps you to develop feel.  I think you need to trust your instincts more, because if you improved the horse without instruction, you have clearly felt and recognised what needed to be done, and then implemented it successfully.

I have always had natural feel on a horse, but I used to find it (and still do, at times) frustrating that sometimes what I felt underneath me wasn’t quite ‘right’, yet the instructor would be showering praise at me because the horse obviously looked good from the outsiders perspective… yet I would be aware that the horse was ever so slightly popping on one shoulder, or tilting it’s pelvis a minuscule amount.  Enough that I felt there was a slight disconnect.  Yet I would watch a video back and it all looked lovely, but what I felt under me wasn’t quite perfect and that would really bother me.


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## View (16 January 2022)

AE, for more advanced riding school clients, unless it's a really rider focussed issue that needs work, I tend to use supervised schooling a lot in lessons, and try to develop feel, technique and confidence this way.  Lots of conversation around what are you feeling, so how do you think you could correct this, what else might you try. 

Scats, I encourage my clients to give me this sort of feedback  e.g "that looked better, but how did it feel" or "looking better, what would you want to improve or do better" - and I'd let you guide me as to whether to repeat the exercise, or try something else that might be more beneficial.

As soon as people can W, T, C, stop/start/steer independently, I start asking them about feel and getting them to think about what aids are actually asking the horse to do.  The amount of talking I do depends on how the client learns/develops, and right from the start it's all about working with the combination that we have on that day.


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## Ambers Echo (22 January 2022)

Another supervised schooling session - this time on a dressage schoolmaster with HUUUUUGE paces. Just when I think I am getting somewhere a horse comes along to say: "you think you're balanced, well sit to this." I felt ok in rising trot but changing the diaganol was just embarrassing, not to mention canter - trot transitions.  I did spend the lesson working more on me than on the horse, doing lots of transitions and changes of rein. It got better. A bit.

Lottie is quite a big moving horse too and getting bigger as she gets stronger. So all good practice.

Onwards!


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## Ambers Echo (28 January 2022)

I'm loving my Ingestre days! Yesterday I rode 3 horses and lunged 2. Next week I am having a jumping lesson after the supervised schooling session. Eventually I need to calm down but I am doing my Stage 2 Teach and need to be there for that anyway so am just having group and private lessons at the same time. It's an amazing place. And SURELY I will eventually learn to ride! I need to up my game to be good enough for Lottie. She is such a star that she deserves a partner who can ride her properly.


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## RachelFerd (28 January 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			I'm loving my Ingestre days! Yesterday I rode 3 horses and lunged 2. Next week I am having a jumping lesson after the supervised schooling session. Eventually I need to calm down but I am doing my Stage 2 Teach and need to be there for that anyway so am just having group and private lessons at the same time. It's an amazing place. And SURELY I will eventually learn to ride! I need to up my game to be good enough for Lottie. She is such a star that she deserves a partner who can ride her properly.
		
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Agreed it is an amazing place. I go down alternate Wednesday mornings for stg 3 teach stuff and it's like stepping back in time to a wonderful gentle world where the only thing that matters is riding beautifully...


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## teapot (28 January 2022)

Sounds great! Wish we had a proper Ingestre equivalent down south.


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## RachelFerd (28 January 2022)

teapot said:



			Sounds great! Wish we had a proper Ingestre equivalent down south.
		
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It has a similar atmosphere to the much missed Huntley. I loved training at Huntley. Talland is good, but atmosphere is not as wonderfully calm.


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## teapot (28 January 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			It has a similar atmosphere to the much missed Huntley. I loved training at Huntley. Talland is good, but atmosphere is not as wonderfully calm.
		
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Never ever heard a bad word about Huntley. Talland’s over two hours from home and many people have told me you either love it or hate it…


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## stangs (28 January 2022)

Seething with jealousy over here, Ingestre and the instruction sounds wonderful. Please do keep updating this thread - I'm living vicariously through your posts.


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## Ambers Echo (11 February 2022)

Feeling a lot happier suddenly.

After that very frustrating lesson I did swap trainers and have been back to the technical arena twice with a new person. It was 100 times better. At that earlier lesson I was told to jump then halt in a straight line immediately to slow Lottie. It felt like a battle, wound her up and made her worse in terms of rushing. I switched to a new trainer who told me to embrace her willingness to travel forward and redirect the energy instead of suppressing. Use turns and more technical lines to get her listening and 'with me'. Suddenly we are both loving life!! SO I have gone from jumping a telgraph pole and screeching to an awkward halt to cantering much more freely round 70/80 fences. Happy ears and no sign of stress of tension in Lottie and she is much more rideable. Hurrah.

I have also gone back over old video and spliced together short flatwork clips from Nov, Jan and then this week. I still wince looking at it but there are clear improvements in both Lottie and me. I think you sometimes need to look back to realise things are slowly getting better. The day to day sessions don't give you that sense.

So feeling pretty positive at the moment.

Ive paid  up at Ingestre till March 10th bcause I wanted to do my 2 Teach in April. But they have pushed the date back till October. I can't afford to go every week till then and I'm worried I'll forget everything if I stop going and wait till then. So not sure what to do now.


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## Bernster (11 February 2022)

Sounds so good!  Well done 👏 

I wish I’d kept a diary as I think I’ll forget the ‘journey’ I’ve had with Bertie (I have forgotten a lot of it with Finn). It feels like really slow progress, 8 months and we still haven’t cracked the canter.  But it’s been steady progress throughout, so I need to remember that.


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## Ambers Echo (11 February 2022)

Steady progress is my aim. I’ve struggled to gain any consistency over the last couple of years either in lessons on other horses because of lockdown or because of not having a consistently sound horse. But Lottie is fit and well and we are finally stringing weeks of good work together. It shows!


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## teapot (11 February 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Feeling a lot happier suddenly.

After that very frustrating lesson I did swap trainers and have been back to the technical arena twice with a new person. It was 100 times better. At that earlier lesson I was told to jump then halt in a straight line immediately to slow Lottie. It felt like a battle, wound her up and made her worse in terms of rushing. I switched to a new trainer who told me to embrace her willingness to travel forward and redirect the energy instead of suppressing. Use turns and more technical lines to get her listening and 'with me'. Suddenly we are both loving life!! SO I have gone from jumping a telgraph pole and screeching to an awkward halt to cantering much more freely round 70/80 fences. Happy ears and no sign of stress of tension in Lottie and she is much more rideable. Hurrah.

I have also gone back over old video and spliced together short flatwork clips from Nov, Jan and then this week. I still wince looking at it but there are clear improvements in both Lottie and me. I think you sometimes need to look back to realise things are slowly getting better. The day to day sessions don't give you that sense.

So feeling pretty positive at the moment.

Ive paid  up at Ingestre till March 10th bcause I wanted to do my 2 Teach in April. But they have pushed the date back till October. I can't afford to go every week till then and I'm worried I'll forget everything if I stop going and wait till then. So not sure what to do now.
		
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Great news re new person and lesson, sounds great!

Re your exam, the 2 Teach is fairly generic, do you _have_ to do it at Ingestre? Appreciate it's easier knowing horses, facilities etc, but is there anywhere else in travelling distance?

From what I know about Ingestre through a friend who works there, they could just be as likely to push the October one back too. Depends how they're feeling towards the BHS that day


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## Ambers Echo (17 February 2022)

At the risk of embarrassing myself by posting the bleedin' obvious, this felt like a useful insight for me. So I am sharing in case I am not the only person who is overly literal in lessons 

At my last dressage lesson I was advised to give the inside rein by scratching the neck with the inside hand.
Then during the SJ warm up I was advised to give the outside rein - scratch the neck with the OUTSIDE hand.

This greatly confused me but I did as I was told then asked my dressage trainer about it yesterday.

She said that I was probably being told to give whichever rein was overly fixed. That the instruction was not because giving one rein away was the 'right way' to ride but was a correction to a problem. Once I stop fixing I can try and ride with even pressure down both reins but I need to solve a problem first.

Total face palm moment  And goes back to feel again. I get told something in a lesson than just mechanically practice it - scratching Lottie's neck with the inside (or outside) rein with no feel for why that is needed. So frustrating. 

Have also had a few more Ingestre sessions and literalness and lack of feel is showing up there too. I few months ago I rode a fairly chunky, heavy black horse who was behind the leg but very well educated up to Advanced Medium. He moved well and I was told afterwards he goes as well as the rider is going. A few weeks later I was given another chunky, heavy, black horse who I assumed was the same one. So in my head I was riding an educated school master. And the horse underneath me felt like a shuffly donkey. I got so frustrated with myself for failing to get a tune out of this 'lovely' horse. Until half way through the lesson I stopped and said 'what am I doing wrong "  the instructor said "what makes you think it's you"? I said isn't this horse a well educated school master? Nope. Completely different horse. Lesson there on ride the horse underneath you not the one in your mind but equally I should have FELT that these 2 horses were nothing like each other. 

Today I had the dressage one again. And I really tried to trust my instincts and feel what was happening. He did move very nicely and improved during the supervised schooling session so I think it is slowly coming. It is not so much that I can't feel, but that I just don't. I rely on instruction and not enough on my own sense of what is happening underneath me. I am just so worried about messing the horse up that I over rely on exercises and drills and the last thinhg anyone told me. But I need to step up now and just ride with more sensitivity. And I am far less concerned about messing the school horses up than Lottie so that is a good place to practice. 

Onwards!!


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## DiNozzo (17 February 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Today I had the dressage one again. And I really tried to trust my instincts and feel what was happening. He did move very nicely and improved during the supervised schooling session so I think it is slowly coming. It is not so much that I can't feel, but that I just don't. I rely on instruction and not enough on my own sense of what is happening underneath me. I am just so worried about messing the horse up that I over rely on exercises and drills and the last thinhg anyone told me. But I need to step up now and just ride with more sensitivity. And I am far less concerned about messing the school horses up than Lottie so that is a good place to practice.

Onwards!!
		
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I think it's because you care so much. Horses are like kids; they're very forgiving so long as you have good intentions!

And also, especially at Ingestre, you can't much them up so badly that they can't be fixed! You are better than that already, and their training is so solid already. Give yourself a break lovely, you're learning!


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## LEC (17 February 2022)

If you care about your riding it never goes away. My latest obsession, and when I say obsession, it literally is. Is about leg pressure jumping - what does more leg mean? Should you have a constant pressure or ride with a passive leg? I am literally asking every single one of my well educated horse friends and watching hours of video looking at peoples legs. I just feel I have zero feel at the moment but it’s also combined with zero practice.


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## Bernster (18 February 2022)

My OH used to ask why I still had lessons, as I knew how to ride. Hah.

Especially when what I’m learning on Bertie feels like the most basic stuff - downward transitions from canter!  But it’s not basic, and it’s about finessing to improve things and expecting a higher standard of work.  None of that is easy.

Do you school much outside of lessons?  I don’t practice enough on my own so sometimes by the next lesson I’ve not really worked enough on what we did last time, which impacts my ‘feel’ and ability to think on my own.


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## oldie48 (18 February 2022)

Looking back I have spent too much time having lessons with trainers who pretty much ride the horse for me and then when I'm on my own and don't have a constant flow of instructions coming at me, I am a bit lost and I think it's more difficult to develop "feel". I'm sure I'm not the only one who has fallen down this particular hole! I do wonder if this is why the UKCC approach is focused differently. I think it's so  much better to have a supervised schooling session as long as there's a good "pair of eyes" on the ground who will ask you questions when they can see something needs addressing rather than just telling the rider what to do. Ingestre sounds great, wish it was closer to me!


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## Ambers Echo (26 March 2022)

Schooling session of 2 halves today. Lottie started feeling AMAZING. The nicest canter work I've ever had from her. Not falling in and not rushing. If only I had left it at that! Though we were only 20 minutes in by then so it did not really feel time to stop. But as soon as she has cantered once, she starts to take over more. So I re-established the trot than decided to run through the test I'm doing next weekend.

The canter in the test practice was AWFUL. Falling in and as soon as I put my inside leg on, running off in response to it. I'm sure it's an evasion. She does know what the inside leg is for. She moves off it nicely plenty of times. So maybe she was just getting a bit tired and for her it is hard staying balanced, engaged, round and upright in canter? So she falls in and instead of moving out in repsonse to the inside leg she runs from it.  Anyway she was blowing through the aids so I did a few of those half halt and then straight to rein back if she ignores me exercises in repsonse to her ignoring the half halt. But she got upset. So the half halt which was her 'come back to me now' cue became a cue for her to run off. I guess out of anxiety. Great I managed to train my horse to RUN AWAY FROM a half halt.  Argghhhh. So I needed to stop, regroup, go back to basics with halt/walk/halt/walk/trot/walk/trot/canter/trot etc Making sure she was always calm, obedient and listening. Finished with a nice controlled canter not worrying roo much about the falling in - just getting the control  back. 

I am really trying to 'ride what I feel' after all those supervised schooling sesisons at Ingestre where I am encouraged to assess what is happening then correct it using my own initiative to come up with a plan. But then I have a day like today where I mess it all up and come away thinking I have de-trained my horse, made her anxious and made everything worse. Which is why I rely so heavily on lessons and set homework tasks. I have had some lessons that feel pretty awful too, but I feel less guilty that way.

Oh well, tomorow is another day.


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## Roxylola (26 March 2022)

They don't learn anything in one session, even unwanted behaviours. 
You win or you learn, today you learned - when it's good it's fine to finish early 😉


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## Ambers Echo (26 March 2022)

Roxylola said:



			They don't learn anything in one session, even unwanted behaviours.
You win or you learn, today you learned - when it's good it's fine to finish early 😉
		
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Thanks that is a very encouraging way to look at it! x


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## palo1 (26 March 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Thanks that is a very encouraging way to look at it! x
		
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Everybody has bad days but they are never wholly bad - as Roxylola says, you learnt today.  Hopefully you won't need what you learnt today next weekend but if you do, you will be glad of that opportunity!!  Lottie has clearly learnt this previously so it is very unlikely that you have taught  her something horrible today lol. Norty!!


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