# Daily Mail Accuracies



## Raynard (15 January 2012)

Hello again, folks! 'Tis I, Raynard!

Did you miss me? Did you? Did you? Huh? Huh?

Some time ago, I started a thread entitled 'Daily Mail Inaccuracies'.

Well, in the interest of fair play ....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-race-abuse-anti-blood-sports-protestors.html

They didn't mention Alan Morgan, of course, formerly of the Cotswold Vale, when he was convicted of a similar offence in December. Perhaps they realised they can't go on pretending it's not happening.

Out of interest, how many of you know black or Asian people who hunt?


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## JanetGeorge (15 January 2012)

Raynard said:



			Out of interest, how many of you know black or Asian people who hunt?
		
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There aren't that many - Derek Laud is of course the most high profile!  (I did ask Derek before the 1st Countryside March if I could break both his legs - so he could represent ALL the minorities (Black, Tory, Gay AND disabled) but he seemed to think 3 was sufficient!)

But I had to laugh at the quote: " It was almost impossible to believe that in this day and age someone could be so unspeakably vile to another human being."

Coming from an anti, that's a joke!


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## Raynard (15 January 2012)

Oh, Janet, come now. You don't consider yourselves human beings, surely?

Tongue-in-cheek, hun. Technically, yes, you are human.

As stated in a previous thread, hunt-thugs out thug anti-thugs any day of the week. Indeed, in _my_ previous thread, I was able to post links to half a dozen videos depicting hunt thuggery and violence. The best anyone could come back with was a video of a large group of sabs walking down a road. _Walking down a road!_ The nerve of the people.

_laughs_


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## JanetGeorge (15 January 2012)

Something to do with the fact that people out hunting tend not to have video cameras with them - and those who do are usually elderly foot followers who wouldn't dare film sabs for fear of the baseball bat landing on their heads!

There ARE plenty of videos out there showing saboteur violence - unfortunately it's often hard to get them back from the police after a successful prosecution.


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## Raynard (15 January 2012)

I've seen plenty of younger hunt supporters with cameras, filming sabs. The truth is, they have nothing noteworthy to show.

As for these convictions you speak of, can you supply any details?

And I snorted with laughter at the notion of sabs carrying baseball bats. That is poppycock on stilts. Given the proclivity of the police to harrass and search sabs at the slightest say so of the hunt, sabs do not carry weapons.


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## Raynard (15 January 2012)

TomOv said:



			Raynard

I don't really know why I'm bothering giving you a response, but I will. Thank you.

I find racist comments to be abhorrent. If the allegations against the individual in question are true,They are. then they are unacceptable. 

However, your post seems to be insinuating that the hunting world is perhaps more racist than other sectors of UK society.Not at all. Given the activities of Lee Peters and Alan Morgan recently, I am simply making enquiries. I certainly do not believe that to be the case. 

We live in a society where two high profile footballers have recently been implicated in similar scenarios. But at least there are many, many black players included in the footballing community.The UK still exhibits some of the tensions of a country that is coming to terms with a multi cultural society (much as I may wish it wasn't the caseMe too.).

I do not see many people from BME communities out hunting. Nor do I see them in the countryside more generally, which is a shame. This is why various public bodies are supporting campaigns to encourage members of such communities to get out into the countryside. 

As Janet has pointed out however, some(one) members of BME communities do hunt and are welcomed.

Tom
		
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## Fiagai (15 January 2012)

Raynard said:



			....And I snorted with laughter at the notion of sabs carrying baseball bats. That is poppycock on stilts...sabs do not carry weapons.
		
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Baseball Bats? hmmm....Well how about Cricket Bats!  Antis using Cricket Bats to beat to death a spoof fox perhaps...

LINK




			It was the internet video that sparked a media outcry: grainy footage that seemed to show four masked men drugging a fox and later beating it to death with cricket bats in a London park that was posted on YouTube and Facebook earlier this week.
		
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Oh but then Sabs would _never_ make anything up though, especially video footage - would they  

oh no but that means that Anti's must have actually beat to death a poor little urban fox....  


Cruel b*stards....

Tell you what why dont you take your own bat and.....


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## Fiagai (15 January 2012)

Raynard said:



			....And I snorted with laughter at the notion of sabs carrying baseball bats. That is poppycock on stilts.... sabs do not carry weapons.
		
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Or how about the case in 2000  when a hunt supporter (A farmer who was allowing the hunt access across his land) was hit with a baseball bat by a hunt sab.  The victim wrestled the bat from the sab and was able to hit the sab back in self defence.  The sab then took a case against the farmer  but the court of appeal refused the sabs case on the grounds that his injury arose from the sabs own unlawful act WITH A BASEBALL BAT.....

LINK

Or This incident of SABS with BASEBALL BATS


Oh and the Hunt Sab Assoc even sell BASEBALL HATS!!!

Shall I go on....?


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## Raynard (15 January 2012)

Fiagai said:



			Baseball Bats? hmmm....Well how about Cricket Bats!  Antis using Cricket Bats to beat to death a spoof fox perhaps...

LINK



Oh but then Sabs would _never_ make anything up though, especially video footage - would they  

oh no but that means that Anti's must have actually beat to death a poor little urban fox....  


Cruel b*stards....

Tell you what why dont you take your own bat and.....

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Fiagai! We meet again! And always under such amusing circumstances.

Cruel b*stards, eh? (Ironic, that, coming from a hunt supporter.) Did you actually read the article or watch the video to which you so kindly provided a link?

The whole thing was a spoof (during which no animals were harmed) to highlight the media's penchant for hysteria in their coverage of fox related stories, along with their failure to verify the authenticity of their reports.

The fact that the filmmakers filmed the whole process in a 'making of' style is a sure indication that they had always intended to reveal the enterprise as a hoax.


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## Fiagai (15 January 2012)

Fiagai said:



			Baseball Bats? hmmm....Well how about Cricket Bats!  Antis using Cricket Bats to beat to death *a spoof *fox perhaps...
		
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Raynard said:



			Fiagai! We meet again! And always under such amusing circumstances...

The whole thing was a spoof..
		
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Yes Ray I agree you are truly hillarious...

I know it is a "spoof" (See above!) But as I said Sabs Would *Never* make anything up would they ...  Like other videos  (you dont get irony  do you Ray?)

Oh any comment about BASEBALL BATS been used by SABS?  NO?



Raynard said:



			Poppycock on Stilts
		
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  Yes This is really a very apt describtion of yourself methinks!


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## Raynard (15 January 2012)

Fiagai said:



			Or how about the case in 2000  when a hunt supporter (A farmer who was allowing the hunt access across his land) was hit with a baseball bat by a hunt sab.  The victim wrestled the bat from the sab and was able to hit the sab back in self defence.  The sab then took a case against the farmer  but the court of appeal refused the sabs case on the grounds that his injury arose from the sabs own unlawful act WITH A BASEBALL BAT.....

LINK

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Ah, the case of Cross v Kirkby: yes, Cross was found to be carrying a baseball bat, and whereas I can understand his animosity towards Kirkby, I do not condone his behaviour. It does our cause no favours. I will say, however, that had I said 'Sabs do not carry weapons _and never have_', your reponse would carry a lot more weight. This incident, after all, occurred twenty years ago!

Any prosecutions more recent than that? There have been twenty years of hunt thuggery since then ....



Fiagai said:



			Or This incident of SABS with BASEBALL BATS

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Well, that report is full of holes. I shall find my previous thread (Daily Mail Inaccuracies) in order to illustrate my point. That is something for tomorrow evening, though, given that my alarm is due to go off at 6am. Watch this space.



Fiagai said:



			Oh and the Hunt Sab Assoc even sell BASEBALL HATS!!!
		
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Well done, you! You made me laugh. Nice to see you're not devoid of a sense of humour.



Fiagai said:



			Shall I go on....?
		
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Please do.


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## Raynard (15 January 2012)

Fiagai said:



			Yes Ray I agree you are truly hillarious...

I know it is a "spoof" (See above!) But as I said Sabs Would *Never* make anything up would they ...  Like other videos Where are they, then?  (you dont get irony  do you Ray?)

Oh any comment about BASEBALL BATS been used by SABS?  NO? I was getting to that. Keep yer hair on.

  Yes This is really a very apt describtion of yourself methinks!  

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## Fiagai (16 January 2012)

Raynard said:



			...
*And I snorted with laughter at the notion of sabs carrying baseball bats. That is poppycock on stilts. *.... *sabs do not carry weapons*.
		
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Raynard said:



			Ah, the case of Cross v Kirkby: yes, Cross was found to be carrying a baseball bat... I will say, however, that had I said 'Sabs do not carry weapons _and never have_', your reponse would carry a lot more weight. This incident, after all, occurred twenty years ago!
		
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Well you did say that you laughed "at the notion of sabs carrying Baseball bats" & made the bald statement that "Sabs do not carry weapons" and I have given you incidences of BOTH weapons and specifically "Baseball Bats" carried and used by Sabs! - you did not say otherwise!  Time does not delimit the truth of such accounts however you may wish to wriggle...



Raynard said:



			Well, that report is full of holes...
		
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...of course it is Ray!  It doesn't agree with your whiter than white non baseball bat wielding vegan image does it.....


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## SusannaF (16 January 2012)

There was a Palestinian out with one UK hunt (from a H&H report). I wouldn't say anyone had a "typical" attitude though. How would you measure that? There was a thread on here (pulled) a couple of years ago about a gollywog doll in hunting costume that was being sold via _Hound_ magazine, which some hunters on here thought was abominable and others thought was "amusingly politically incorrect". Definitely no consistent attitude among foxhunters.


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## Fiagai (16 January 2012)

For those who are not familiar with the case mentioned previously of a hunt sab attacking a hunt supporter here is a brief account of the case.

Mr Cross and his partner (Mrs Davies) were attempting to sabotage a hunt on a hunt supporters land (Mr Kirby).  Ms Davies actually bit Mr Kirkby when he tried to escort her off his land.  Mr Cross (The hunt sab) then attacked Mr Kirkby  with a *baseball bat *and thretened to kill him shouting at him "your *****ing dead" and hit him in the chest and throat and also hit him twice on the arm with the bat whilst Ms Davies went to to fetch an iron bar from their vehicle.  As Mr Kirkby tried to walk away, the hunt sab followed striking him again.   Only then did Mr Kirkby after a struggle take the the baseball bat off the hunt sab and hit him a single blow in self defence

Of course there have been many other cases of deliberate violence and trespass by hunt sabs.  The one of the above is perhaps once of the most infamous in that the hunt sab took a case against Mr Kirkby for hitting him.  The court of appeal dismissed this case on the grounds that Mr Kirby was acting in self defence.

Hunt sabs may wish to portray themselves as peace loving animal huggers the truth is somewhat different.  Hunt sabs continue to carry offensive weapons and with them the threat of violence and intimidation...

However I do think that ray has a point though and rather than just ignoring hunt sabs and getting on with our legal activities, hunt supporters should all carry covert recording equipment to properly document exactly what hunt sabs are getting up to.


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## VoR (16 January 2012)

What we have here is a pointless argument! 

Any right minded person should find comments like those in the article abhorrent regardless of their view on hunting. 

The alleged (I use this term as I'm not sure there has been a court case) racial abuse has nothing to do with hunting and everything to do with certain people in our society (see previous comments about footballers, the recent  Stephen Lawrence trial, the existence of certain political parties which have no link to hunting!) who are completely intollerant of anyone with a different sex, race, creed, colour or indeed class to themselves and or those with disabilities and that can be the case whether you are from the pro or anti 'lobby'.

On the subject of pro and anti hunt supporters, once again they are all human and will all have human faillings making some violent, some want to look big and carry weapons, some to be prejudice (see above), again pretty pointless to generalise and say you are all like this or you are like that!!

FFS!

Oh and btw, we did have a black guy hunt with us, still attends meets but unfortunately has become too ill to ride. He was and is very much welcomed.


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## Nollaig Shona (16 January 2012)

VoR said:



			What we have here is a pointless argument! 

Any right minded person should find comments like those in the article abhorrent regardless of their view on hunting.
		
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Sums it up nicely!


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## Paddydou (16 January 2012)

Raynard 

A long long time ago before I actually bothered to find out more and was easily lead by the folk who shout loudest I was very much an anti. So much so that at the tender age of 16 I went along to demonstrate my feelings towards hunting folk. I was under the impression before I went that I was to be holding a sign or similar. When I was handed pepper spray and told to spray it at the dogs I walked off and vowed never to get involved again. But as a horrified bystander I was impressed by the calm yet determind behaviour of the hunt and its followers that day so I resolved to find out more. 

What I found turned me very much PRO!

It is easy to jibe and antagonise folk - less so to stand up for your beliefs and refrain from doing damage in the process.

There is nothing you can say to me that will make me believe that antis are calm and gentle folk. They are pitching for a fight at every oppourtunity and commonly ignore or refuse to accept that REAL creulty to animals of all shapes and forms is going on all over. Many have no idea of basic animal husbandry at all. Not least the releasing of "rescued" city foxes into rural areas (another such case has managed to survive an amazing 2 weeks near me and has been found dead of starvation in the last couple of days).


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## pelena (16 January 2012)

VoR said:



			What we have here is a pointless argument! 

Any right minded person should find comments like those in the article abhorrent regardless of their view on hunting. 

The alleged (I use this term as I'm not sure there has been a court case) racial abuse has nothing to do with hunting and everything to do with certain people in our society (see previous comments about footballers, the recent  Stephen Lawrence trial, the existence of certain political parties which have no link to hunting!) who are completely intollerant of anyone with a different sex, race, creed, colour or indeed class to themselves and or those with disabilities and that can be the case whether you are from the pro or anti 'lobby'.
.
		
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this.

I personally find it quite sad that a story about a abhorent racist offence should be used as an excuse to climb on the anti-hunting bandwagon. It's a deeply offensive comment and it's right that the perpetrator (if proven) should be exposed. But don't use it to promote another agenda.


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## cheeseandhorses:) (16 January 2012)

I am very much pro-hunting,does this mean i am also a racist, as by some of the comments above i must be? Some people on here are very blinkered to think this. I have no problem with ethnic minorities, infact my best friend is what you would class as an ethnic minority. 
To me, its not the colour of someones skin that makes me make a judgement but the way they act, and the behavoir they display. A nice person can be any 'colour'(sorry if thats not 'pc'). 
I also have no problem with anti's , as many in my year at school are, i just don't engage them in hunting topic conversation, nor join in with any. 
Please don't tarr everybody with the same brush, the views of one are not the views of another.

Besides Daily mail are only desplaying one side of the story, i wouldn't personally belive anything they say, mainly as its wrong. But also becuase how can you trust the reliablily of the story when in many cases they cannot proof read of spell check.


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## dominobrown (17 January 2012)

"Foxes are highly persecuted and heavily hunted in Afghanistan, however, it is an adaptable species that produces large litters. Therefore the Government of Afghanistan has listed V. vulpes as a harvestable species. "

I think that hunting in Britain tends to be white mainly due to rural demographics. Most Asian and Black populations are based in urban areas, where obviously there are no hunts.


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