# Do any of you keep a humane killer / gun at home just in case?



## pennyturner (5 December 2013)

As above really.

With 11 equines under my care, it has often occurred to me that it would be sensible to have a way of PTS immediately for the nightmare scenario of an extreme accident.  Might take hours to get a vet.

In the past I believe many YO's had a hand gun 'just in case' but of course UK law no longer allows.
Have thought about a humane killer but I believe they require more skill, so personally not comfortable.

Has anyone else given this some thought, or (*cringing*), had experience?


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## Goldenstar (5 December 2013)

pennyturner said:



			As above really.

With 11 equines under my care, it has often occurred to me that it would be sensible to have a way of PTS immediately for the nightmare scenario of an extreme accident.  Might take hours to get a vet.

In the past I believe many YO's had a hand gun 'just in case' but of course UK law no longer allows.
Have thought about a humane killer but I believe they require more skill, so personally not comfortable.

Has anyone else given this some thought, or (*cringing*), had experience?
		
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Heavens no you have to know how to use such a thing and be experianced at doing it .
You can shot a horse with a shotgun ( which we have ) but I would never consider trying ( I would be more likely to kill one qiuckly with a kitchen knife )
If your with a good equine pracise you should never have to wait hours they have be able to attend cilents in emergency within a certain time I can't remember what but its certainly not hours .
If your lucky enough to be in a hunting area that's another way you might be able to get someone to you quick so the kennel number is worth having to hand .
If I could not get a vet or the kennels my next call would be one of our friends whose a cattle farmer they all shoot stock when its needful .


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## spottybotty (5 December 2013)

I would have thought you would need a licence for humane killer. OH has a two shot guns, but dont think he could do it, he has them for clayshooting.


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## alliersv1 (5 December 2013)

I wouldn't know how to use one and would be afraid of making things worse to be honest.
I'd presume you'd still need a license for a humane killer. There have been cases of them being used on humans :/
Also, do you not need to have a bit of a poke about after shooting with a humane killer, or did I dream that part?

I like the idea of being able to end suffering quickly, but wouldn't have the skill or bottle to do it. I couldn't even finish off a pigeon that I hit in my van but didn't quite kill


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## buddy's mummy (5 December 2013)

we do as other half is a farmer, so if Buddy ever needed immediate slaughter then my partner is on hand. he got a 410


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## ester (5 December 2013)

I don't think you'd be allowed bottles of injection either....


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## Goldenstar (5 December 2013)

ester said:



			I don't think you'd be allowed bottles of injection either....
		
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Definatly not and they use a catheter to administer its a skilled job .


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## YasandCrystal (5 December 2013)

Using a humane killer is a very skilled thing and not one anyone can do. Even the experts get it wrong sometimes, which means a second attempt is required. It is also potentially a very dangerous thing to do and can put the handler at risk of inury or death. 
So my answer would be 'no' - call all your local vets in the event of an emergency and cover all their call out fees - paying the first one to do the sad deed.

Most times when there is a catastrophic inury adrenalin will cover the horse's pain for a time.


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## Polos Mum (5 December 2013)

I have the local knackerman's number in my phone and his card in the feed room - he does a 24 hour service and certainly wouldn't make you wait hours. 
OH has called him in the middle of the night to attend animal related rta's and he's always available and prompt. 

I do think it's sensible to have a plan - but probably a more practical one than DIY for me.


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## DJ (5 December 2013)

alliersv1 said:



			Also, do you not need to have a bit of a poke about after shooting with a humane killer, or did I dream that part?
		
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No, you didn`t dream it, dependent on circumstances a Pithing rod is used ... not nice but sometimes necessary.


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## Dizzleton (5 December 2013)

I don't think I could bring myself to do it; I can't even kill a mixy rabbit (Even though I really want to put it out of it's misery) let alone my horse.


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## alliersv1 (5 December 2013)

daisysp8 said:



			No, you didn`t dream it, dependent on circumstances a Pithing rod is used ... not nice but sometimes necessary.
		
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Thankyou. I had something about pithing in my head, but wasn't sure. I DEFINITELY couldn't do that


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## MerrySherryRider (5 December 2013)

The longest we have had to wait for a real emergency out of hours call has been 20-30 minutes. That's not much longer than walking from field to house, getting kit and returning. 

I'd be mortified if my YO used one on my horse, I would want the euthanasia carried out by someone skilled and very used to using it on horses.


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## buddy's mummy (5 December 2013)

MerrySherryRider said:



			The longest we have had to wait for a real emergency out of hours call has been 20-30 minutes. That's not much longer than walking from field to house, getting kit and returning. 

I'd be mortified if my YO used one on my horse, I would want the euthanasia carried out by someone skilled and very used to using it on horses.
		
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a horse is no different to a cow (shooting wise)...if in pain or unwell a farmer will shoot cows and sheep..why is a horse different?


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## Turks (5 December 2013)

I would only ever let someone v. experienced at shooting large animals do so. I wouldn't even want auth vet to do it as they do it so infrequently and have minimal training. Hubby carries firearms for work and does dispose of animals but would only ask him to do so in extreme circumstances. I'd always go with hunt or vet (injection).


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## Love (5 December 2013)

I had to wait for nearly an hour for my vet to arrive when my boy needed to be pts. Holding a stressed, terrified pony in the pitch black who kept trying to walk on a compound fracture to his near side hind cannon and splint I can tell you it was the longest hour of my life. I'd have done anything to set him free sooner... I was in shock though and probably not thinking straight so would have been no good even if I decided to act.


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## Patterdale (5 December 2013)

buddy's mummy said:



			we do as other half is a farmer, so if Buddy ever needed immediate slaughter then my partner is on hand. he got a 410
		
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I wouldn't want to try killing a horse with a 410 (or any shotgun ideally) it probably wouldn't make a clean kill and would make a heck of a mess of the animal. 
OH has a firearms licence and various rifles which would be better. 

But horses are very hard animals to kill cleanly. The front of the skull is very hard and if you tried to shoot a horse close range with a shotgun you'd more than likely just get some ricochet back into your own face and a badly injured horse. 

Half killing a suffering animal is worse than leaving it in the original pain so I'm afraid I'd wait for the vet, unless they couldn't get there (unlikely) in which case if get instructions over the phone from the vet on how best to try and achieve a clean kill.


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## pennyturner (5 December 2013)

Thank you everyone for contributing to this thread.  I don't know where else I would go to get such level headed discussion.

As far as I am aware there is no licence required for a captive bolt gun.  I think they're usually used for on-site destruction of cattle, perhaps with pithing also, but I think I read somewhere that it's harder to get the placement right for horses.

I'm not particularly squeamish, and have destroyed small animals and chickens, but  I don't think I would know whether I could actually do it unless faced with the situation.  The reason I've given it thought is that I'd hate to feel that I'd prolonged suffering through lack of preparation.

The point about the knackerman is a good one.  Ours is superb, but I hadn't considered him as an emergency service.

The one time we needed him, our vet was on site at 9.30pm on a Sunday within 10 minutes.  At the time, he lived only a couple of miles away, but I still have to give him credit.


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## pennyturner (5 December 2013)

Love said:



			I had to wait for nearly an hour for my vet to arrive when my boy needed to be pts. Holding a stressed, terrified pony in the pitch black who kept trying to walk on a compound fracture to his near side hind cannon and splint I can tell you it was the longest hour of my life. I'd have done anything to set him free sooner... I was in shock though and probably not thinking straight so would have been no good even if I decided to act.
		
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Oh Love, I can't even begin to imagine what you went through.  I'm so sorry if this thread has caused you any distress.


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## Love (5 December 2013)

pennyturner said:



			Oh Love, I can't even begin to imagine what you went through.  I'm so sorry if this thread has caused you any distress.
		
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No honestly please don't worry! It was 2 years ago so I'm fine sharing it now. There was a minuscule chance it would heal if the miracle had happened that no infection had got in the open wound to the bones. But it meant cross tieing for months on end which could cause pneumonia etc. He hated being in.  Letting him go was actually the easiest decision I've ever made


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## suestowford (5 December 2013)

YasandCrystal said:



			Most times when there is a catastrophic inury adrenalin will cover the horse's pain for a time.
		
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Yes to this. When a horse got hit by a car on the main road near us it ran for nearly a mile on three good legs and one broken one. That must have been adrenalin kicking in.


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## Spring Feather (5 December 2013)

We have a number of guns at home, a couple would be suitable to shoot a horse.  I couldn't do it though.  There's not much I couldn't/wouldn't do but I just know I wouldn't be able to shoot my horses.  My husband says in an emergency he would do it for me but tbh I have enough drugs in the house to be able to keep most horses painfree for as long as it takes for the vet to get here.


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## hnmisty (5 December 2013)

ester said:



			I don't think you'd be allowed bottles of injection either....
		
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Luckily my dad always has a bottle in his car (vet) so neither of mine had to wait long.

My dad once handed me some pieces of paper he thought I would find interesting. They were on how to shoot a horse (where exactly to aim etc). Even if I had them next to me for reference, I would never consider doing it myself.

Not only would messing it up be unbelievably harrowing, but you would then have half a tonne of injured and terrified animal on your hands. That sounds like a recipe for disaster.


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## applecart14 (5 December 2013)

alliersv1 said:



			Also, do you not need to have a bit of a poke about after shooting with a humane killer, or did I dream that part?

I like the idea of being able to end suffering quickly, but wouldn't have the skill or bottle to do it. I couldn't even finish off a pigeon that I hit in my van but didn't quite kill 

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Yes its called pithing I believe.  You put something like an egg whisk into the brain cavity and give it a twirl. Just to make sure the brain stem is dead.  I think they do it when they have a lot of animals to pts in case they haven't done the job properly but may be wrong there as when I saw "Kill it,  Cook it, Eat it" they cut their throats after they were stunned so not sure.  Don't even know if a stunner they use in slaughter houses makes a hole or just smashes against the skull.  But recent posts on here refering to humane killers have had people say that you can no longer pts a horse with a humane killer (if you ever could).

Alec Swann is the best person to ask.


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## applecart14 (5 December 2013)

suestowford said:



			Yes to this. When a horse got hit by a car on the main road near us it ran for nearly a mile on three good legs and one broken one. That must have been adrenalin kicking in.
		
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Yes my boy Miki had an open (compound) fracture of the tibia and yet he still managed to whinny when he saw me when I stumbled down the field to say  goodbye before the vet arrived. If I hadn't seen his leg with bone and all I would have sworn there was nothing wrong with him.   *In fact the only damn pain he felt was when the vet managed to c**k up the job by having to shoot him twice.  *Dreadful job.  If the vets can't get it right i am damn sure I wouldn't be able to.


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## DW Team (5 December 2013)

I would not personally want to do the job. 

But very sadly when the vets from two different practices called failed to turn up to a horrendous road traffic accident with a horse from our yard. The yard owner asked the police if he could go back to the house and get his rifle (deer stalking type don&#8217;t know the size) put the poor horse out of its misery double broken front legs and still trying to get up. Everyone was in total shock and the police were wonderful in doing what they could poor horse. YO had to shoot the horse luckily he is a very good shot and the horse was done in one. Worse for me was the vets called NEVER came.


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## Ibblebibble (5 December 2013)

it's not something i would want to do unless i had been shown how to do properly, I'm not squeamish and do a bit of rabbit and small vermin shooting but i would not want to get it wrong with a large animal like a horse. i have the hunts number in my mobile plus 2 vets, i would hope that at least 1 of the 3 would be on site within 30 mins max if needed


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## pennyturner (5 December 2013)

Festive-Fen said:



			I would not personally want to do the job. 

But very sadly when the vets from two different practices called failed to turn up to a horrendous road traffic accident with a horse from our yard. The yard owner asked the police if he could go back to the house and get his rifle (deer stalking type don&#8217;t know the size) put the poor horse out of its misery double broken front legs and still trying to get up. Everyone was in total shock and the police were wonderful in doing what they could poor horse. YO had to shoot the horse luckily he is a very good shot and the horse was done in one. Worse for me was the vets called NEVER came.
		
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That is my worst nightmare.  In the end, presumably, the police would have called in a firearms officer, but how long would that take?


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## ester (5 December 2013)

applecart14 said:



			Yes its called pithing I believe.  You put something like an egg whisk into the brain cavity and give it a twirl. Just to make sure the brain stem is dead.  I think they do it when they have a lot of animals to pts in case they haven't done the job properly but may be wrong there as when I saw "Kill it,  Cook it, Eat it" they cut their throats after they were stunned so not sure.  Don't even know if a stunner they use in slaughter houses makes a hole or just smashes against the skull.  But recent posts on here refering to humane killers have had people say that you can no longer pts a horse with a humane killer (if you ever could).

Alec Swann is the best person to ask.
		
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Stunners do just that - render the animal unconcious electrically and then slitting the throat kills them.


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## Orangehorse (5 December 2013)

A 410 would NOT do the job,it would only further injure a horse.  Where would you shoot it with a shotgun, a head shot?  

The rifle - for hunting deer - would be OK, if you know where to aim.

Re the non-showing vets at the car accident - how terrible for everyone and lucky that the YO had a suitable gun.

We had a large steer shot by the vet here that had broken its leg and she had to "pith" it as well.  All a bit grusome.


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## ticker (5 December 2013)

No chance !! I'd try to keep the horse as comfortable as possible and hope to god the vet can get their bum out here in time , failing that I would be on the phone to a dear friend of ours from the hunt whom I trust. OH being a farmer has the tools to do it, but I wouldn't let him so much can go wrong.


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## Gamebird (5 December 2013)

It's been illegal to pith cattle for human consumption since the TSE Regs came in 2001. 

Some vets have a captive bolt gun, others use a free bullet - a firearms (not shotgun) licence is required. The horse's brain is very small (!) and hard to hit - the angle is crucial which is not always easy to ensure in an animal which may be moving and distressed. It is not just a matter of solely hitting the brain but angling the shot so that the base of the brain is destroyed. Sometimes it does take two shots - this should not be necessarily seen as a measure of incompetence, merely a recognition that you are trying to hit something small, at a particular angle, which is hidden inside a large bony casing (the skull) such that you do not know its exact position when you are firing, and which may be moving.

Although it is possible to euthanase a small horse (or bovine) with a shotgun and large gauge shot it is far from ideal and best reserved for emergencies.


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## FinkleyGladiator (5 December 2013)

Definitely not something I'd like to do. Although I'm lucky enough never to have been it such a situation, I think I'd rather attempt to keep them quiet and feed them carrots or something than try to PTS myself.
As an equine science student who has done a head dissection, I can echo Gamebird in saying their brain is incredibly small and the bullet hole wasn't where I expected it to be (i.e. further up the head rather than between the eyes) - professionals are there for a reason.


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## pennyturner (5 December 2013)

Gamebird said:



			It's been illegal to pith cattle for human consumption since the TSE Regs came in 2001. 

Some vets have a captive bolt gun, others use a free bullet - a firearms (not shotgun) licence is required. The horse's brain is very small (!) and hard to hit - the angle is crucial which is not always easy to ensure in an animal which may be moving and distressed. It is not just a matter of solely hitting the brain but angling the shot so that the base of the brain is destroyed. Sometimes it does take two shots - this should not be necessarily seen as a measure of incompetence, merely a recognition that you are trying to hit something small, at a particular angle, which is hidden inside a large bony casing (the skull) such that you do not know its exact position when you are firing, and which may be moving.

Although it is possible to euthanase a small horse (or bovine) with a shotgun and large gauge shot it is far from ideal and best reserved for emergencies.
		
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That makes sense.  Thanks Gamebird.
I now have an even greater respect for my knackerman, who quietly sent off my old boy a couple of years ago with a tuft of grass still between his teeth.


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## Pearlsasinger (5 December 2013)

I know of 2 RTAs locally where neighbours shot the horse as an emergency.  One horse and rider were hit by 'joyriders' in a stolen car, almost directly outside the gate of a big livery yard.  YO shot the horse asap.
The 2nd horse strayed from the field, in the dark, along with several companions and was hit by a car.  For some reason no-one could get an equine vet out and the local knacker is a good hour away, the local rabbiter came and put the horse out of its agony.


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## Polos Mum (5 December 2013)

Gamebird's spot on explanation is exactly why I've always used a knackerman who makes the complex and technical decision several times a day and hence has the experience to do it sucessfully every time.


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## pennyturner (5 December 2013)

Polos Mum said:



			Gamebird's spot on explanation is exactly why I've always used a knackerman who makes the complex and technical decision several times a day and hence has the experience to do it sucessfully every time.
		
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I don't think anyone is suggesting for a moment that we're talking about anything other than absolute emergencies where the poor animal is in agony and it's going to take too long to get a professional.

Like Pearlsacrolsinger, my knackerman couldn't get here in less than an hour.


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## TandD (5 December 2013)

I must be in the minority then when I say I would happily go on a course/learn how to shoot dead a horse. I would rather have to shoot a horse in an horrific accident (ie: hit by car, guts over road, horse still alive) than wait for the vet......an hour can feel like a life time! If I ever do manage to get a yard of my own I would be quite happy to hold licence and have training..... At least then if it came to it I can give the horse one last act of kindness and relieve it from suffering.


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## Mithras (5 December 2013)

No, would that not be taking the HHO obsession with pts a bit far?

Obviously we have to think about these things, but whats with the constant threads about pts?


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## _HP_ (5 December 2013)

Oh how I wished I'd been able to pts my pony a few months back.
I found him having seizure one afternoon (Easter Day). By the time vet arrived (over half an hour later) he had died a horrible death...his system shut down and he basically suffocated to death while I held him. 
That being said..i think it would be a disaster if any old person were able to do it and I would hate to think that in my haste I may have added to ghe trauma by getting it wrong...


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## Goldenstar (5 December 2013)

Mithras said:



			No, would that not be taking the HHO obsession with pts a bit far?

Obviously we have to think about these things, but whats with the constant threads about pts?
		
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I with you on this I think it must be the dark nights .
I tell you want I'll start a rugging thread with a barefoot slant that will cheer us up.


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## Goldenstar (5 December 2013)

HP I crossed posted with did not mean to be unfeeling when you had just posted about what was a very sad experiance.


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## MadBlackLab (5 December 2013)

Gamebird said:



			It's been illegal to pith cattle for human consumption since the TSE Regs came in 2001. 

Some vets have a captive bolt gun, others use a free bullet - a firearms (not shotgun) licence is required. The horse's brain is very small (!) and hard to hit - the angle is crucial which is not always easy to ensure in an animal which may be moving and distressed. It is not just a matter of solely hitting the brain but angling the shot so that the base of the brain is destroyed. Sometimes it does take two shots - this should not be necessarily seen as a measure of incompetence, merely a recognition that you are trying to hit something small, at a particular angle, which is hidden inside a large bony casing (the skull) such that you do not know its exact position when you are firing, and which may be moving.

Although it is possible to euthanase a small horse (or bovine) with a shotgun and large gauge shot it is far from ideal and best reserved for emergencies.
		
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I agree with this. Also if your not trained it would be more stressful for the horse. Also would you as the person doing the deed on your own horse be in right frame to perform the procedure. 
Something like this should be left to the proffessionals


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## Gamebird (5 December 2013)

MadBlackLab said:



			I agree with this. Also if your not trained it would be more stressful for the horse. Also would you as the person doing the deed on your own horse be in right frame to perform the procedure. 
Something like this should be left to the proffessionals
		
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I think it's an interesting discussion, although I would not be in favour of lay people being equipped in this way. I think if we were having this discussion in the Aussie out back, or on my mother-in-law's farm in Canada where her nearest vet is 3 hrs away I might side differently.


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## KidnapMoss (5 December 2013)

My husband has a shotgun and there is also a rifle in the gun cabinet (all correct licences held etc) I have nightmares about vets not being able to get through snow or flood and one of our ponies dying a horrendous death ie broken leg or neck, I'd ask my brother in law who is in the army to do it I think, and is trained to shoot properly, bit diffrent to husband who just shoots the odd pheasant. my husband has his own horse and I don't think he would be able to shoot him and I ceartinily wouldn't be able to.


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## _HP_ (5 December 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			HP I crossed posted with did not mean to be unfeeling when you had just posted about what was a very sad experiance.
		
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No probs at all


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## RunToEarth (5 December 2013)

buddy's mummy said:



			we do as other half is a farmer, so if Buddy ever needed immediate slaughter then my partner is on hand. he got a 410
		
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I hope to god your OH never attempts to dispatch anything larger than a rabbit with a 410. 

My OH has shotguns and a 243 rifle and would never dream of going anywhere near livestock or horses with it. I would want an experienced vet with a boltgun - my dad has been in livestock his whole life and never had to shoot anything himself - a good vet is what you need. 

At the very least you are going to cause your horse a great deal of stress if you attempt to shoot it yourself. 

I honestly don't think people should be allowed a shotgun licence with such ridiculous thoughts. I hope this post is a joke.


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## MadBlackLab (5 December 2013)

RunToEarth said:



			I hope to god your OH never attempts to dispatch anything larger than a rabbit with a 410. 

My OH has shotguns and a 243 rifle and would never dream of going anywhere near livestock or horses with it. I would want an experienced vet with a boltgun - my dad has been in livestock his whole life and never had to shoot anything himself - a good vet is what you need. 

At the very least you are going to cause your horse a great deal of stress if you attempt to shoot it yourself. 

I honestly don't think people should be allowed a shotgun licence with such ridiculous thoughts. I hope this post is a joke.
		
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Agree fully


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## maisie06 (5 December 2013)

I have a friend who is an experienced marksman and has a rifle whom I could ask in an extreme emergency..


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## DanceswithCows (5 December 2013)

We have a bolt gun onsite and neighbours and family members with a whole array of firearms and the experience of using them.  Vets can take hours to arrive.  Knackermen are generally quicker but would take 30mins minimum. When it comes down to it, I find the act quite easy - if the animal is suffering that much, all you want to do is put them out of it.  That said, we have not used the bolt gun.  The instructions are in german and it's been quicker and more efficient to simply use a large knife!!  I haven't had occasion to think about any of this with the horses but they would be no different for me.


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## Echo Bravo (5 December 2013)

Sorry but don't you have to have a licence to kill and I think you would be taken to court for owning said bolt gun with out a licence etc.


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## Mithras (5 December 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			I with you on this I think it must be the dark nights .
I tell you want I'll start a rugging thread with a barefoot slant that will cheer us up.
		
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LOL!  There were 3 of them on Page 1 of Tackroom alone earlier!


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## DanceswithCows (5 December 2013)

Echo Bravo said:



			Sorry but don't you have to have a licence to kill and I think you would be taken to court for owning said bolt gun with out a licence etc.
		
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no you don't and it would be wasting the judge's time if you tried!


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## stroppymare20 (5 December 2013)

I would say its a bad idea. A large horse that was euthanised at our yard (he was very old) because he was having a fit was given an injection, which wasn't strong enough. This caused him to be pretty much permanently drowsy so had to be shot humanely through the head, which killed him instantly.


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## RunToEarth (5 December 2013)

DanceswithCows said:



			That said, we have not used the bolt gun.  The instructions are in german
		
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? Anyone who is reliant on instructions should not be in possession of a gun.

 I think this is the most odd thread I've seen in a long time. I think you need to review your vet/knackerman, I have never had to wait more than 20mins max.


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## moana (5 December 2013)

You do need a licence for a gun AND a humane killer. Even few vets have a licence for a humane killer. The average Joe Blogs won't have one.


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## Dizzydancer (5 December 2013)

Knackerman would be first option, if they couldn't come quick enough I would ring good friend who is former knackerman and still regularly culls deer and similar both in UK and France. He has a gun which would fell an elephant. I have witnessed him destroy an out of control bull which escaped from pen. He did offer to pts our old horse with this gun if we had wanted a familiar face.


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## jeeve (6 December 2013)

We used to keep a gun, and when a goat was attacked by a dog the neighbour came and shot it for us - dad must have been out.

My brother keeps a gun on his property. He uses it for feral dogs.

I would really struggle killing an animal, but if it is a farm, I think it is a good idea to have a gun on a farm. Even better if you know how to use it. Could always ask the vet what you should do in that circumstance, I am sure they could advise.


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## DanceswithCows (6 December 2013)

RunToEarth said:



			? Anyone who is reliant on instructions should not be in possession of a gun.

 I think this is the most odd thread I've seen in a long time. I think you need to review your vet/knackerman, I have never had to wait more than 20mins max.
		
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If you know how and where to shoot it's no different using a bolt gun. No great mystery.  I've rung all vets in the locality for a suffering steer and none could come inside 'a few hours'.  I use the nearest knackerman to me but it will always take him an absolute minimum of 30mins to get here.  I agree, very odd thread indeed :S


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## guido16 (6 December 2013)

My biggest concern on this thread is everyone talking about GUNS. It isn't a gun you need, it's a rifle.
My OH had done it several times but would never ever consider a shotgun. It has to be a rifle. He had to also kill a dog once and used a rifle. The effects of a cartridge compared to a bullet would be devastating 
Now, he has a shooting business and does a lot of stalking so is a good aim. But, that's irrelevant, you don't shoot a horse from half a mile. It needs to be standing very still so you can accurately shoot (as game bird said) from right next to it.

If people think you should shoot a horse with a shotgun then basically you shouldn't even be considering it!


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## cptrayes (6 December 2013)

RunToEarth said:



			? Anyone who is reliant on instructions should not be in possession of a gun.

 I think this is the most odd thread I've seen in a long time. I think you need to review your vet/knackerman, I have never had to wait more than 20mins max.
		
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Depends where you live, I'd be waiting an hour. It's a very good question and making me realise that I need the numbers of the local men who shoot deer.


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## DanceswithCows (6 December 2013)

moana said:



			You do need a licence for a gun AND a humane killer. Even few vets have a licence for a humane killer. The average Joe Blogs won't have one.
		
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No, you don't:

http://www.hsa.org.uk/Frequently Asked Questions.htm

Q 16. Do I need a firearms licence to use a captive-bolt device?
A 16. Captive-bolt stunners were de-classified from their 'section 1' firearms status in February 1998. This means that *a firearms permit is no longer required for purchase, possession or use of the percussive device.* However, a valid slaughter licence is required to use any captive-bolt device for the purpose of stunning livestock, *except in emergency or casualty situations.* Operators should be fully trained and knowledgeable regarding the positioning, firing, maintenance, ammunition and effectiveness of captive bolt stunners. It should always be remembered that captive-bolt devices are percussion stunners, not humane killers, and stunning should always be followed by immediate bleeding or pithing to ensure death.  Animals intended for consumption should not be pithed; they should be bled. 


Follow this link in order to purchase the HSA Guidance Notes on Humane Killing of Livestock Using Firearms which provides guidance on the use of shotguns or free bullet weapons including correct gun operation, ballistics, how animals should be shot, types of equipment available, using the right ammunition, safety and maintenance.
http://www.hsa.org.uk/Publications/Guidance Notes.html


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## Patterdale (6 December 2013)

Mithras said:



			No, would that not be taking the HHO obsession with pts a bit far?

Obviously we have to think about these things, but whats with the constant threads about pts?
		
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Yes I was thinking this...!



DanceswithCows said:



			.....That said, we have not used the bolt gun.  The instructions are in german and it's been quicker and more efficient to simply use a large knife!!
		
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:eek3: I can't decide which is the worst part of this sentence....:eek3:



RunToEarth said:



			I hope to god your OH never attempts to dispatch anything larger than a rabbit with a 410........I honestly don't think people should be allowed a shotgun licence with such ridiculous thoughts. I hope this post is a joke.
		
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This is what I said earlier. I can't quite believe that people actually in possession of a shotgun licence think it would be a good idea to try kill a horse with it. It would not work and would be a total disaster!



RunToEarth said:



			? Anyone who is reliant on instructions should not be in possession of a gun.
		
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Very true. 



guido16 said:



			My biggest concern on this thread is everyone talking about GUNS. It isn't a gun you need, it's a rifle.
My OH had done it several times but would never ever consider a shotgun. It has to be a rifle. He had to also kill a dog once and used a rifle. The effects of a cartridge compared to a bullet would be devastating 
Now, he has a shooting business and does a lot of stalking so is a good aim. But, that's irrelevant, you don't shoot a horse from half a mile. It needs to be standing very still so you can accurately shoot (as game bird said) from right next to it.

If people think you should shoot a horse with a shotgun then basically you shouldn't even be considering it!
		
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And this, totally. 

Basically, in laymans terms, a rifle shoots a single small 'bullet' if you like. 
A shotgun shoots a cartridge full of small bits which spread out as they fly. 

Completely different weapons with completely different actions. As I've already said, if you tried to kill a horse with a shotgun (or worse, 410) you would be unlikely to kill it cleanly, and more likely to just increase its pain and panic. 

Ring the vet or knackerman, and try and keep the horse calm until the professional arrives.


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## dunkley (6 December 2013)

Our kind, sensitive huntsman uses a 38 Webley - small, discreet, and very, very effective.  

I cannot imagine the horror of trying to shoot a horse with a shotgun.

Actually, yes I can, because I have seen the devastating effect it has on a person


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## Clodagh (6 December 2013)

You can shoot a horse with a shotgun. 
We had a cock up with my ex vets practice about 10 years ago and the trainee vet couldn't pts the old pony with a needle and didn't have a gun. I spoke to another vet a few days later and he said you can shoot them with a shotgun, and it is legal. (I won't post the instructions how to on here!).
Another case, out hunting a horse broke down completely and was PTS by the terrierman using his gun, wich I believe is a short barrelled .410, although it comes under firearms rather than a shotgun license because of the short barrels. There was a vet out hunting that day and he supervised the shooting, although he didn't pull the trigger.
Has to be said though, much as I now know in a desperate situation my OH would shoot a horse for me it would have to be pretty dire indeed.


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## Gamebird (6 December 2013)

DanceswithCows said:



			No, you don't:

http://www.hsa.org.uk/Frequently Asked Questions.htm

Q 16. Do I need a firearms licence to use a captive-bolt device?
A 16. Captive-bolt stunners were de-classified from their 'section 1' firearms status in February 1998. This means that *a firearms permit is no longer required for purchase, possession or use of the percussive device.* However, a valid slaughter licence is required to use any captive-bolt device for the purpose of stunning livestock, *except in emergency or casualty situations.* Operators should be fully trained and knowledgeable regarding the positioning, firing, maintenance, ammunition and effectiveness of captive bolt stunners. It should always be remembered that captive-bolt devices are percussion stunners, not humane killers, and stunning should always be followed by immediate bleeding or pithing to ensure death.  Animals intended for consumption should not be pithed; they should be bled. 


Follow this link in order to purchase the HSA Guidance Notes on Humane Killing of Livestock Using Firearms which provides guidance on the use of shotguns or free bullet weapons including correct gun operation, ballistics, how animals should be shot, types of equipment available, using the right ammunition, safety and maintenance.
http://www.hsa.org.uk/Publications/Guidance Notes.html

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Actually the original poster was correct. The HSA guidance you have quoted refers to captive bolt stunners (no licence required in an emergency), which are different from humane killers (firearms licence required). Most people on this thread have been using the terms interchangeably, but they are actually totally different things. It's easy to tell the difference if you remember that you still need to kill the animal after use of a captive bolt (pithing/bleeding), whereas a humane killer does what it says on the tin.


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## RunToEarth (6 December 2013)

Clodagh said:



			You can shoot a horse with a shotgun. 
We had a cock up with my ex vets practice about 10 years ago and the trainee vet couldn't pts the old pony with a needle and didn't have a gun. I spoke to another vet a few days later and he said you can shoot them with a shotgun, and it is legal.
		
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I wasn't bringing into question the legality of it, more the fact that a shotgun is not the best way to effectively dispatch anything that big, shotguns are not designed to cleanly shoot things at close range in the way that rifles are. Add to that the fact that there is no skill or IQ test required to hold a shotgun licence...


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## Clodagh (6 December 2013)

RunToEarth said:



			I wasn't bringing into question the legality of it, more the fact that a shotgun is not the best way to effectively dispatch anything that big, shotguns are not designed to cleanly shoot things at close range in the way that rifles are. Add to that the fact that there is no skill or IQ test required to hold a shotgun licence...
		
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Absolutely!


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## Dry Rot (6 December 2013)

RunToEarth said:



			I wasn't bringing into question the legality of it, more the fact that a shotgun is not the best way to effectively dispatch anything that big, shotguns are not designed to cleanly shoot things at close range in the way that rifles are. Add to that the fact that there is no skill or IQ test required to hold a shotgun licence...
		
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There are some very naive ideas about guns and rifles on this forum, let alone PTS! If you don't know what you are doing, get someone who does (e.g. vet, knackerman, gamekeeper, farmer, etc).

Here is a very comprehensive site with the full explanation:

http://www.hsa.org.uk/firearms/firearmsdownload.pdf

This is what it says about equipment.... Note the .410 and .22!

_Equipment 
The use of free projectiles for the slaughter or killing of animals is not limited to the single shot, free-bullet humane killer, as widely used by veterinary surgeons and knackermen. Other types of handguns (adapted or otherwise), rifles and shotguns 
can also be used with equal effect. Often, the use of a shotgun may be preferable to other methods for both animal welfare and operator safety reasons. Indeed, where emergencies arise on farms, shotguns are often more readily available than any 
other weapon. 
The most commonly used equipment includes: 
&#61623; Humane killers (specifically manufactured/adapted, single-shot weapons and 'Bell Guns of various calibres) 
&#61623; Shotguns (12, 16, 20, 28 bore and .410) 
&#61623; Rifles (.22, .243, .270, .308) 
&#61623; Handguns (various calibres from .32 to .45)_

The bottom line must surely be, if you don't know what you are doing, leave well alone. Or get training. Or get someone who does.

Guns and rifles are lethal weapons and even the small calibres generate enormous force which is why they all have to be proof tested in manufacture. Direct that force in the correct concentration into the most vulnerable area and the smallest weapon will kill the biggest animal.


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## pennyturner (6 December 2013)

Again, thanks to everyone who'se contributed to what I know is a somewhat odd and macabre thread.  I hope none of us ever need any of the information here, but I feel a little more comfortable being more fully informed. 

My take-away from this is that i will be putting the knackerman's number into my phone, just in case.


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## MagicMelon (6 December 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Heavens no you have to know how to use such a thing and be experianced at doing it
		
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This. I would be absolutely horrified if say my horse was on livery and the YO shot it - obviously they'd only do it in the worst case, but you'd never know if they did it properly and quickly.  I keep my horses privately and no, we have no guns available. No way. If the absolute worst happened and the vets were taking too long then in an extreme case I would probably just ask any of my next door farm neighbours - all of whom have gun licenses.


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## RunToEarth (6 December 2013)

MagicMelon said:



			If the absolute worst happened and the vets were taking too long then in an extreme case I would probably just ask any of my next door farm neighbours - all of whom have gun licenses.
		
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Holding a "gun licence" doesn't mean your farm neighbour is any more capable of shooting a horse than you are - a lot of people who hold shot gun licences struggle to kill a sporting pheasant outright, let alone confidently shoot a horse without causing it any harm. 

I completely agree with Dry Rot here - very naïve thoughts on what it takes to cleanly shoot a horse at close range. Just because someone four doors down is in legal possession of a shotgun does not make them a sensible choice to shoot what is effectively a very large pet.


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## Goldenstar (6 December 2013)

RunToEarth said:



			Holding a "gun licence" doesn't mean your farm neighbour is any more capable of shooting a horse than you are - a lot of people who hold shot gun licences struggle to kill a sporting pheasant outright, let alone confidently shoot a horse without causing it any harm. 

I completely agree with Dry Rot here - very naïve thoughts on what it takes to cleanly shoot a horse at close range. Just because someone four doors down is in legal possession of a shotgun does not make them a sensible choice to shoot what is effectively a very large pet.
		
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But I have three neighbours who would be very capable of doing this .


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## RunToEarth (6 December 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			But I have three neighbours who would be very capable of doing this .
		
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Hi GS. I wasn't replying to you in particular, there are, obviously, people out there who are capable of humanely dispatching horses with a gun, I am not implying that there aren't. What I was trying to get at, is that there seem to be a lot of people who think it is as simple as anyone with a shotgun/rifle would be able to shoot your horse. Theory put into practice could see that going fairly badly wrong.


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## fburton (6 December 2013)

I would only allow someone to do this who had successfully done it at least several times before.


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## Polos Mum (6 December 2013)

pennyturner said:



			My take-away from this is that i will be putting the knackerman's number into my phone, just in case.
		
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This is the best thing to come out of this thread, everyone should have this, not only for their own animals but you never know when you might come across an accident an it could be invaluable


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## hayinamanger (6 December 2013)

When I had a lot more sheep I used to have a 12 bore shotgun, I despatched any sheep with it as necessary but I would not have attempted to shoot a horse with it.


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## Spring Feather (6 December 2013)

guido16 said:



			My biggest concern on this thread is everyone talking about GUNS. It isn't a gun you need, it's a rifle.
		
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A rifle is a gun, as is a shotgun.  Anyone considering shooting a large animal with buckshot needs to evaluate their gun knowledge.  I don't know if you have big game slugs over there but I have bear slugs here and they are fired from the rifled barrel of my 12 gauge (my 12 gauge has interchangeable barrels).  Slugs take down bears and would most certainly do a clean job of shooting a horse at close range through the head.  I shoot pigeons with my .410, and once I had to shoot a baby raccoon with it (had to be dispatched poor thing) but I certainly wouldn't consider shooting anything much bigger than that with it. I hold a full Firearms Certificate which allows me to purchase and use a number of different types of guns.  For those only wishing to have a shotgun, a Firearms Licence is no longer required over here.


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## Copperpot (6 December 2013)

In an emergency if I couldn't get hold of hunt I would ask my friend who is a game keeper. He has a high powered rifle for large deer etc.


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## Baggybreeches (6 December 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Definatly not and they use a catheter to administer its a skilled job .
		
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Or a canula?


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## fburton (6 December 2013)

Baggybreeches said:



			Or a canula?
		
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Cannula and catheter are loosely interchangeable, though cannula is the more exact term to apply to a tube inserted with a needle intravenously.

In terms of skill, I would say inserting a cannula into the neck vein is pretty much on a par with penetrating the brain by shooting. For both, it is essential to know where they are exactly. The big difference between them is what happens if you get it wrong.


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## Patterdale (6 December 2013)

Baggybreeches said:



			Or a canula?
		
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My vet says catheter too.


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## DanceswithCows (9 December 2013)

Gamebird said:



			Actually the original poster was correct. The HSA guidance you have quoted refers to captive bolt stunners (no licence required in an emergency), which are different from humane killers (firearms licence required).
		
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Sorry yes quite right, I was still on my bolt gun!


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## Clodagh (9 December 2013)

I just quizzed OH. I give you that he is experienced, having spent most of his youth in hunt kennels, but he said he would be happy to shoot a horse with a shotgun and didn't even think the size of shot would have a major impact because you would be so close to the skull that the pellets wouldn't have spread anyway.


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## DanceswithCows (9 December 2013)

Apparently the advantage of using a shotgun is that the pellets spread IN the brain and completely obliterate it.


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## Polos Mum (9 December 2013)

Noticed in the news that the police shot a horse on the road in Cambridshire this morning - Presumably with a handgun? certainly not a deerhunting rifle.  Not an ideal situation and I'm sure they did what was necessary 

Proof that sadly these situations do occur so the number of your emergancy knackerman is a key thing you should always carry
RIP poor pony


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## Dry Rot (9 December 2013)

DanceswithCows said:



			Apparently the advantage of using a shotgun is that the pellets spread IN the brain and completely obliterate it.
		
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Exactly.


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## el_Snowflakes (9 December 2013)

Festive-Fen said:



			I would not personally want to do the job. 

But very sadly when the vets from two different practices called failed to turn up to a horrendous road traffic accident with a horse from our yard. The yard owner asked the police if he could go back to the house and get his rifle (deer stalking type don&#8217;t know the size) put the poor horse out of its misery double broken front legs and still trying to get up. Everyone was in total shock and the police were wonderful in doing what they could poor horse. YO had to shoot the horse luckily he is a very good shot and the horse was done in one. Worse for me was the vets called NEVER came.
		
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Oh how awful.....

Well done to your YO for being so on the ball. Terrible that the vets never arrived, that's surely breaking their duty of care? Did you ever get an explanation for their no show?


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## fatpiggy (9 December 2013)

DanceswithCows said:



			Apparently the advantage of using a shotgun is that the pellets spread IN the brain and completely obliterate it.
		
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My vet told me once that it they use soft-tipped (like dum-dum) bullets now - low velocity so safer for bystanders but they cause catastrophic brain injury.


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## fatpiggy (9 December 2013)

Copperpot said:



			In an emergency if I couldn't get hold of hunt I would ask my friend who is a game keeper. He has a high powered rifle for large deer etc.
		
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Do they not go for a jugular shot though with deer, rather than a head shot?


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