# More revelations on AHAR



## Dobiegirl (14 August 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHu0rT0FLKw&feature=youtu.be


This has just come up on my newsfeed, it is horrifying and has moved me to tears, what the hell is going on there and why are the authorities not doing something about it. We all moan about the RSPCA but I cant believe they would ignore this, what are your thoughts and what can be done about it.


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## Regandal (14 August 2016)

Has it been reported to the Irish welfare services?


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## Dobiegirl (14 August 2016)

https://www.facebook.com/Animal-Heaven-Animal-Rescue-AHAR-Exposed-795034397244586/


According to their page yes and they are urging everyone to email the departments, Im guessing the more people who email them then they are hoping they will have to step in.


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## Equi (14 August 2016)

RSPCA have no jurisdiction here. ISPCA don't care. When they attend everything is "on form" cause what would they do with all the animals. 

The biggest problem is that people still think one of two things - 1) oh poor animals, what a great rescue. I'll donate. 2) oh what poor animals, Ill rescue one to save it. 

Both feed this persons vile attempt at welfare.


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## respectedpony driver (14 August 2016)

I have been following this rescue and do know the attempts to discredit it.Have any of you ever been to see for yourselves?


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## Dobiegirl (14 August 2016)

I havent been  and used to be a supporter, Ive just seen on the Ahar page someone has asked about this horse and their comment has been deleted much the same as mine was when I asked politely about one of their horses and my comment was deleted and I was blocked from commenting. You have to ask yourself why wont they answer questions and that video is pretty damning, lots of horses,dogs drop off the radar there and their habit of buying at fairs is something Ive never heard a rescue do before.


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## stormox (14 August 2016)

respectedpony said:



			I have been following this rescue and do know the attempts to discredit it.Have any of you ever been to see for yourselves?
		
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pm'd u


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## Irish gal (14 August 2016)

respectedpony said:



			I have been following this rescue and do know the attempts to discredit it.Have any of you ever been to see for yourselves?
		
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I would be interested to hear, if you can enlighten us. Have been hearing allegations for years about this place. There's already so much on social media I don't think you'll be breaching anything much by filling us in.


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## Equi (14 August 2016)

They have an on-going deal with a meat man, who finds the most horrible horses he can and SELLS them to the rescue. 

I mean really...

This says a lot about the man obvioulsy, but this rescue funds this. This man could buy or take any free/cheap pony, keep it in a stable with no food for a few weeks and sell it at a profit. But this rescue will not disclose the info about the person.


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## paddi22 (14 August 2016)

the 'rescuing' dogs by buying them at fairs made me absolutely fume. The breeders must be laughing all the way home all set to breed a new batch to sell to this lunatic.


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## Equi (14 August 2016)

They also buy pet store animals, to rescue them. Parrots etc.


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## rascal (14 August 2016)

That place should have been closed down years ago, disgusting.


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## Dobiegirl (15 August 2016)

rascal said:



			That place should have been closed down years ago, disgusting.
		
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Everyone says that but no one in authority seems to want to deal with it, obviously the horses on the video are kept elsewhere off the AHAR premises which begs the question how many more are there like this on other rented properties.


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## Dobiegirl (15 August 2016)

"This post is for you, our team of supporters. 
This statement is from. 
AHAR & our team of vets. 
Hero ( named Heather with months by the lady who will adopt her when the time is ready ) 
As you can see is alive and well at our centre. Not the forgotten pony you were lead to believe. 
When we first posted her story, our plan was at least a year of corrective shoes decided by our vet and farrier before the final decision of an operation was made. 
Two months ago they decided to take off her shoes and give her a break out on grass before the next veterinary decision. It would be a long winter inside and Heather of all equines so deserved it a holiday in a beautiful field of grass. 
Last week she was back in our centre as planned for the next step of her journey. Sadly a few would like to try and tarnish AHAR with innuendos. 
We welcomed an early visit from The Department of Agriculture after a number of complaints. I am very grateful for their rapid response again, to clear our name but a waste of valuable time for all of us involved. 
Kenmare fair is on today. We should have been there to help what we could. Instead I had to send a team of volunteers to replace me. 
Again only the animals suffer at the hands of AHAR haters who shout so loudly their 'love' of animals. 
Now lets get back to doing what we do best and saving as many as we can"


The above is Ahars answer to the video, they must think we were born yesterday, If that video had not emerged and the authorities told that poor pony would be still suffering in the field. Not one of their supporters has said that the pony in the video was suffering and why does it look worse than when it first come into Ahar, In fact before Ahar made the above statement people were denying it was the same pony


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## Regandal (15 August 2016)

What do the dept of ag do when they visit?  Do they go in with vets?


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## Dobiegirl (15 August 2016)

Regandal said:



			What do the dept of ag do when they visit?  Do they go in with vets?
		
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No Idea, I know people have asked the Dept. under the freedom oF info act and they will not disclose anything.


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## stormox (15 August 2016)

They went in with a digger a while back and found dead horse carcasses. AHAR fobbed them off with some story which was believed.


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## ester (15 August 2016)

tarnish AHAR with innuendos? what a bizarre word to choose!


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## Equi (15 August 2016)

Far as I know they don't get shown the entire yard and a lot of animals are moved before they get there. Obviously have someone on the inside.


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## Dobiegirl (15 August 2016)

equi said:



			Far as I know they don't get shown the entire yard and a lot of animals are moved before they get there. Obviously have someone on the inside.
		
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Ive heard that and it does seem far fetched until you read the comments from one of the authorities employers sticking up for Ahar on the exposed page, something rotten in Denmark I think.


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## Cortez (15 August 2016)

I have been there; a friend has a dog adopted from there. No, it's not perfect and there is a lot of sentimental rubbish spouted by the owner, but at the same time there are a lot of animals helped by this rescue that would otherwise be completely ignored and without resource. Evil? no. Misguided? Probably.


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## Dobiegirl (15 August 2016)

Cortez did you watch the video? if the exposed page had not contacted the authorities that poor pony would still be there so I do think they are evil, yes they rehome a lot of dogs but a lot enter there are never seen or heard of again and the buying  of animals at fairs is just counter productive.


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## CAYLA (16 August 2016)

This is not a rescue it's an unstable hoarders funded dream. All at the expense of poor animals being starved/neglected and abused all so one person can call herself a hero in the eyes of the ignorant. Those helping fund this place are despicable. Ffs how much more do we have to see before this woman is removed from the place.


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## Regandal (16 August 2016)

If it's that bad why aren't the press/tv doing an investigation?  Most journalists love a good snoop.


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## stormox (16 August 2016)

Cortez said:



			. Evil? no. Misguided? Probably.
		
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I think the manager is an animal hoarder, more misguided than evil, but using the animals as 'sob stories' to raise funds to buy more animals is really not the way to help in the long term. I was at Puck and some of the animals she bought were in no way  being mistreated, and AHAR actually went to the fair the evening before, to be the first to buy. I could understand it if she waited untiil the fair was closing and then bought the ones who hadnt been sold, but a lot would have been sold to good homes if AHAR hadnt got there first.


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## Equi (16 August 2016)

Regandal said:



			If it's that bad why aren't the press/tv doing an investigation?  Most journalists love a good snoop.
		
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They have before.


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## stormox (16 August 2016)

They had a big article in the  Mail - "animal Heaven or Animal Hell" a few months ago....


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## Irish gal (16 August 2016)

And why is she buying them at fairs, there's no cruelty there, well I can think of lots of better places to buy. Like here in Limerick, where ponies in the city, mostly foals are 50. They are traded and then ridden into the ground by poor kids or used as trotters. The cities would be a much more sensible place to buy. And where does she get the money from. I'll bet it not from the state. She must have plenty of money to be buying at fairs as those horses aren't being given away.


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## Equi (16 August 2016)

The rescue was originally set up to "save" horses from slaughter aka buy meat horses with other people's money. 

So this buying to save thing has always been an issue.


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## Irish gal (16 August 2016)

You seem to know a bit about it Equi, so is all the money coming from private donations? She must be doing very well. Surprising with all the bad press.


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## paddi22 (16 August 2016)

the place just looks like an absolute kip though. whats the point of rescuing and keeping them in limbo in a horrible set up. We have 5 rescue horses plus foals at the moment, I would love to take more and but at some stage you have to stop and assess at what level do you provide the best quality of life for them, and at what level are you financially secure enough to take them and keep them secure without demanding others help you out.

That person who runs it is an animal hoarder who gets a high off appearing like a saint. 

I can't give cash to those types of charities anymore. The money is better going to proper retraining and rehoming charities who have correct policies in place for finding horses new homes.


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## stormox (16 August 2016)

Irish gal said:



			You seem to know a bit about it Equi, so is all the money coming from private donations? She must be doing very well. Surprising with all the bad press.
		
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A lot of the money is private donations, have you seen their FB page? Pictures are posted  of some injured/skinny/deformed animal, whether it be horse, dog, even magpies and crows, and donations are requested to 'save' and  'treat' it. Many people from America and other countries give money. Indeed, the farm (was Nolans equestrian centre) was purchased for them by a benefactor a few years back. Prior  to that they were renting a farm and not paying their bills so were evicted, or about to be - I believe they still owe money there!!


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## Irish gal (16 August 2016)

Unbelievable Stormox, fb is even better than can be supposed if that's the case. Hard to believe someone would outright buy her a farm without stringent conditions that had to be met on an ongoing basis. It's a scandal really that she can get away with it.


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## stormox (16 August 2016)

I think it was bought for the AHAR rescue, not Suzanne Gibbons personally, and it is in a trust or something- she is the manager and founder of AHAR. But yes, the donations received are amazing, you only have to read the page to see that. And theres a new 'urgent case' or 'code red' every few days. It is a very biased page though, if someone queries something, or asks a question they dont like, your comment is instantly deleted and you are banned from commenting. She is definately a hoarder, she cant cope with the amount of animals she has but keeps buying more,  I really believe she is a bit mad, a bit like one of those religious cult leaders.


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## Dobiegirl (16 August 2016)

http://www.daft.ie/limerick/commerc...romtransa-collins-abbeyfeale-limerick-295725/

The luxury field of grass according to the manager on her rewritten statement where poor Hero/Heather and the others thin horses were turned out, this is about 1/2 hours drive from Ahar.

Its described as rough grazing and heavy in the advert if you scroll down.


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## Equi (16 August 2016)

Irish gal said:



			You seem to know a bit about it Equi, so is all the money coming from private donations? She must be doing very well. Surprising with all the bad press.
		
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Yes all private donations and rehoming money. They rehome many animals to England and beyond because there is a higher price to adopt plus the shipping. 

It's all information easily found on the Internet by the way. I've never been near it.


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## Leo Walker (16 August 2016)

She gave 4 to a friend of mine within 6 weeks. My friend is very competent and capable but she did zero checks, just dropped them off with her, and to be fair, my friend wasnt in a particularly stable place in her life and wouldnt have been someone I was off loading horses onto. 3 gained weight and were turned around. The 4th put my friend in hospital and she doesnt come off very often! He clearly has huge issues, which is probably why he ended up where he is. Luckily my friend is doing the right thing by him, but he could easily have killed someone and/or ended up in exactly the place he came from!


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## Dobiegirl (16 August 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			She gave 4 to a friend of mine within 6 weeks. My friend is very competent and capable but she did zero checks, just dropped them off with her, and to be fair, my friend wasnt in a particularly stable place in her life and wouldnt have been someone I was off loading horses onto. 3 gained weight and were turned around. The 4th put my friend in hospital and she doesnt come off very often! He clearly has huge issues, which is probably why he ended up where he is. Luckily my friend is doing the right thing by him, but he could easily have killed someone and/or ended up in exactly the place he came from!
		
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Crikey that is really scary, Im not surprised though, same with the dogs which are not assessed and go out to homes with children having come in from the pound with an unknown history. Im surprised no one has not been badly injured before or god forbid killed.


I forgot to ask did they come with passports and when was this.


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## Leo Walker (16 August 2016)

I have no idea about passports, I can prod her and ask as she no longer has any dealings with them. But I cant imagine she would openly come out against them. Shes had a bit of hassle on social media already after she had dealings with another nutcase in that location, so shes keeping a bit of a low profile at the minute!


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## Dobiegirl (16 August 2016)

I would be interested to know when this was and if passports went out with them, no one can identify her and I can understand the need she has for anonymity given their habit of threatening people and sending nasty pms..


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## Equi (17 August 2016)

A while back they did a massive 80 horse from meat man deal. They were shipped all over the country in a matter of days with no passports no home checks no vet checks just basically pick one and give us 50£. Many went to notorious dealers and many were gone never to be heard from again. One caused a strangles outbreak in an area that had not had one before.


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## stormox (17 August 2016)

I have actually seen (didnt buy) horses that have been passported by AHAR -LHI passports, AHAR prefix- being offered for sale on donedeal after being re-homed.
I also had a friend who rehomed a 4 year old gelding (according to her page) no home check, luckily my friend is experienced coz when he arrived he was a 2 year old colt!


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## ElectricChampagne (17 August 2016)

I heard of a tale through a friend that agreed to take a broken 6 year old gelding, 16hh or so. She was in work and arrived home to find an un cut 2 year old 13hh colt dumped in their fields and AHAR admitted to doing it. He broke every fence and tried to get in with her mares
She asked her to take the obviously dangerous and unhandled yoke back and got nothing but threats and lies. Only when the colt was threatened to be shot (it was unhandled and very wild to the point of dangerous) did she re-appear to collect it.

Sob story went up on FB then about it to get more donations.

The Strangles issue was disgraceful, AHAR even tried to discredit other proper and well run charities over it. Basically she dumped and transported several strangles (and obviously so) riddled horses into a few yards.

Took no responsibility and denied it all.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

stormox said:



			They went in with a digger a while back and found dead horse carcasses. AHAR fobbed them off with some story which was believed.
		
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Tosh


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

equi said:



			They have before.
		
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Ah yes, the one where the journalist refused to visit the rescue.  Not biased at all of course.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			No Idea, I know people have asked the Dept. under the freedom oF info act and they will not disclose anything.
		
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Has it occurred to you that maybe that is because there is nothing to disclose?


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## ester (17 August 2016)

I'm sure they would have gotten an accurate representation had they announced they were a journalist wanting to visit :rolleyes3:


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Irish gal said:



			You seem to know a bit about it Equi, so is all the money coming from private donations? She must be doing very well. Surprising with all the bad press.
		
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Is it illegal for a registered charity to ask for donations?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

ester said:



			I'm sure they would have gotten an accurate representation had they announced they were a journalist wanting to visit :rolleyes3:
		
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The journalist refused an invitation to visit.


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## ester (17 August 2016)

That was my point? I imagine they didn't think they would get an accurate representation on an organised, pre planned visit. . . .


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Has it occurred to you that maybe that is because there is nothing to disclose?
		
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No.In that case you would still receive an answer from the freedom of information officer stating just that. My self think, because AHAR is NOT a public body, the FoI act might not apply.


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

ester said:



			That was my point? I imagine they didn't think they would get an accurate representation on an organised, pre planned visit. . . .
		
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that would be the correct impression.


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Is it illegal for a registered charity to ask for donations?
		
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nope but it's illegal t spend them on anything else but the issue they were raised for. That's called fraud.


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## paddi22 (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Tosh
		
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since you are a fan of AHAr  and obviously came on here to defend them. 

Do you condone the allowing Hero to get in that state in the field while in their care? Do you look at that video and think it's fine?


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## stormox (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Tosh
		
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What reason do you have for saying that? It was March this year


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## WeeLassie (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Ah yes, the one where the journalist refused to visit the rescue.  Not biased at all of course.
		
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Which journalist was that? I saw a post on their page where a journalist had gone there unannounced and they wernt happy!! Also saw on their page she has a goose in her house- that doesnt seem right, I think he needs to be outside with access to a pond


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

Niamh walsh


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## stormox (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			Niamh walsh
		
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She used to write for the Mail, and the article with photos -"Animal Heaven or Animal Hell" was in the mail...


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

As far as I know she still writes for the Mail.She also declined the invitation to come to ahar and being 'shown' around. obviously with an appointment. Given AHAR's track record of hiding things in all kind of remote locations or hiding animals away she felt that to be a useless exercise.


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## stormox (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			As far as I know she still writes for the Mail.She also declined the invitation to come to ahar and being 'shown' around. obviously with an appointment. Given AHAR's track record of hiding things in all kind of remote locations or hiding animals away she felt that to be a useless exercise.
		
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Agree- like the Niall Boylan show, where she just happened to get called out on a 'rescue' during the interview......


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## ElectricChampagne (17 August 2016)

She's not the only journalist to be offered that either... Some have gone too, but again it was obviously staged


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			nope but it's illegal t spend them on anything else but the issue they were raised for. That's called fraud.
		
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If the rescue puts out a call for funds to purchase animals from the fair for example, then people who donate know where their money is going.  How is that fraud?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			since you are a fan of AHAr  and obviously came on here to defend them. 

Do you condone the allowing Hero to get in that state in the field while in their care? Do you look at that video and think it's fine?
		
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Hero has a congenital club foot, meaning she was born with it.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

WeeLassie said:



			Which journalist was that? I saw a post on their page where a journalist had gone there unannounced and they wernt happy!! Also saw on their page she has a goose in her house- that doesnt seem right, I think he needs to be outside with access to a pond
		
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the journalist who wrote the article in the paper never went there.  She got all her information from the exposers page.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

stormox said:



			What reason do you have for saying that? It was March this year
		
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Would you perhaps like to present the evidence you have that when the diggers went there it was A) to look for horse carcasses and B) that any were found.


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## stormox (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			the journalist who wrote the article in the paper never went there.  She got all her information from the exposers page.
		
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Are you that journalist? if not, how do you know???


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			No.In that case you would still receive an answer from the freedom of information officer stating just that. My self think, because AHAR is NOT a public body, the FoI act might not apply.
		
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Possible, but as a registered charity I would have thought the FOI would apply.


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## Dobiegirl (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Hero has a congenital club foot, meaning she was born with it.
		
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So how can you explain the deterioration as from when she had treatment from Ahar until she was found, her hooves are overgrown and cracked and she is walking far worse then when she first arrived. Why was she turned out in that dump of a field 1/2 hrs drive from Ahar, Ahar described it as luxury grazing when any fool can see its scrub, wetlands.


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

Nope. but as one does, you are being selective in your response. Back to the intitial subject of this thread, hero came to ahar in ausguts 2015.The initial post had 265 likes, 78 shares and more than 100 comments. 75% of those comments promise a donation.Given the fact  that this pony has not been treated more than initially,tell me , where did the money go?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

stormox said:



			Are you that journalist? if not, how do you know???
		
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No, I'm not the journalist.  But I do believe it said so in the article.

If she did go though, why use all the photographs and the information taken from the exposers page.  Why not use photographs taken during the visit?


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			the journalist who wrote the article in the paper never went there.  She got all her information from the exposers page.
		
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incorrect.As I was directly involved,I know exactly where her information came from.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			Nope. but as one does, you are being selective in your response. Back to the intitial subject of this thread, hero came to ahar in ausguts 2015.The initial post had 265 likes, 78 shares and more than 100 comments. 75% of those comments promise a donation.Given the fact  that this pony has not been treated more than initially,tell me , where did the money go?
		
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Have you seen the letter on the exposers page from the DOA stating that the pony is under continuous veterinary supervision?

I would suggest that tend to show the pony has been treated more than initially.  Unless you don't believe the DOA statement?


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## Equi (17 August 2016)

Any time there is a thread on this "charity" one person who is always a new poster comes on and claims its all tosh. 

I have an idea who that person might be lol


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			No, I'm not the journalist.  But I do believe it said so in the article.

If she did go though, why use all the photographs and the information taken from the exposers page.  Why not use photographs taken during the visit?
		
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you're missing the point. She never visited. For the simple fact that she was under the strong impression she would be led onto a merry go round.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			incorrect.As I was directly involved,I know exactly where her information came from.
		
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Oh come on, the article was pretty much identical to what was said on the exposers page and all of the photographs printed in that article came from there.  Or were you the one who went in under false pretenses?


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

I don't frequent that page. I shall have a look


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			you're missing the point. She never visited. For the simple fact that she was under the strong impression she would be led onto a merry go round.
		
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And she wasn't anyway by the exposers.

Like I said, biased.


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Oh come on, the article was pretty much identical to what was said on the exposers page and all of the photographs printed in that article came from there.  Or were you the one who went in under false pretenses?
		
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respectfully- thats non of your business.

re article- you want to look again


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			So how can you explain the deterioration as from when she had treatment from Ahar until she was found, her hooves are overgrown and cracked and she is walking far worse then when she first arrived. Why was she turned out in that dump of a field 1/2 hrs drive from Ahar, Ahar described it as luxury grazing when any fool can see its scrub, wetlands.
		
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It isn't my place to explain it.  Perhaps you would be better off asking the vet and farrier that question as they would be the one's who are in the know.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			respectfully- thats non of your business.

re article- you want to look again
		
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I have my answer.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

WeeLassie said:



			Which journalist was that? I saw a post on their page where a journalist had gone there unannounced and they wernt happy!! Also saw on their page she has a goose in her house- that doesnt seem right, I think he needs to be outside with access to a pond
		
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The gosling with a cast on it's leg, in a pond?


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I have my answer.
		
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you think? ah well..good for you. I can't seem to find the letter you are referring to anywhere.Care to point me in the right direction?


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## Dobiegirl (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			It isn't my place to explain it.  Perhaps you would be better off asking the vet and farrier that question as they would be the one's who are in the know.
		
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There's a  surprise and what a cop out, so you dont have an opinion then of your own,  anyone with a pair of eyes and any knowledge of horses can see that pony hasnt had treatment for months and why a field so far away if its receiving regular treatment.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			I don't frequent that page. I shall have a look
		
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Please do, you will find the article posted on there too.  It was posted after the photographs you saw in it were posted on the page.  Somehow, I can't see a journalist allowing photographs taken for an article posted a week or so before said article is published.


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Hero has a congenital club foot, meaning she was born with it.
		
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Well that is stating the obvious! how helpful a comment. That doesn't mean it is ok to keep her as is, where she was, in the state she was in! and the other horses out with her?

continuous veterinary supervision would mean she is living at the vets... she clearly isn't...


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			you think? ah well..good for you. I can't seem to find the letter you are referring to anywhere.Care to point me in the right direction?
		
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Check out the visitors posts.


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## stormox (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			The gosling with a cast on it's leg, in a pond?
		
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I didnt see the one in a pond, saw one on an indoor wooden  floor, I hope he does have a pond to go to....


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## Dobiegirl (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			The gosling with a cast on it's leg, in a pond?
		
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 How is the 3 legged fox doing shut up in a garage, no updates for a long long while, which is the pattern for Ahar, animals disappear from there


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

stormox said:



			I didnt see the one in a pond, saw one on an indoor wooden  floor, I hope he does have a pond to go to....
		
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If it's the same one I saw, it has had surgery on it's leg and is in a cast.  A pond is not the correct place for it right now.


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			No, I'm not the journalist.  But I do believe it said so in the article.

If she did go though, why use all the photographs and the information taken from the exposers page.  Why not use photographs taken during the visit?
		
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I think we have addressed the issue that if she had have gone I am sure she would have been only presented with lovely photo opportunities. Which would be doing nothing to get to the truth of what is actually occurring would it?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			How is the 3 legged fox doing shut up in a garage, no updates for a long long while, which is the pattern for Ahar, animals disappear from there
		
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I wouldn't know.  Since you seem to think you know so much, how about you telling me how it is.


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Check out the visitors posts.
		
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Have it. Glad to see Pony is confirmed to be under continued veterinary care after months of neglect.also great to see the investigation is ongoing.Hopefully the department will finally cop on what a cruelty laden place AHAR really is


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I wouldn't know.  Since you seem to think you know so much, how about you telling me how it is.
		
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wait a minute- you don't know? but you seem so knowledgeable about everything ahar?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

ester said:



			I think we have addressed the issue that if she had have gone I am sure she would have been only presented with lovely photo opportunities. Which would be doing nothing to get to the truth of what is actually occurring would it?
		
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It was biased journalism end of.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			wait a minute- you don't know? but you seem so knowledgeable about everything ahar?
		
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No more knowledgeable than you are.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			Have it. Glad to see Pony is confirmed to be under continued veterinary care after months of neglect.also great to see the investigation is ongoing.Hopefully the department will finally cop on what a cruelty laden place AHAR really is
		
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You'd have thought that would have happened by now, if that were the case.


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## Damnation (17 August 2016)

I would suggest that Chocolate Moonbeam has some form of direct link to the charity.

I would also suggest that all this is turning into is a slagging off match on the internet...

ETA: I am not defending anyone, or suggesting that any cruelty or otherwise is called for. This isn't the place...


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

so if you're no more knowledgeable than me how can you say the journalism was biased?


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			It was biased journalism end of.
		
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and it would have been no more biased if she had gone in and take pretty pictures? Really?! 

I still don't understand how anyone tars someone with innuendo .


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

you are right. I shall refrain from further responding to any moonbeams, chocolate or otherwise. I just can't stand ignorance.


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Damnation said:



			I would suggest that Chocolate Moonbeam has some form of direct link to the charity.

I would also suggest that all this is turning into is a slagging off match on the internet...

ETA: I am not defending anyone, or suggesting that any cruelty or otherwise is called for. This isn't the place...
		
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I'm not sure that is the case. I think most hho users are fairly genned up that people buying up animals at fairs and markets does not make them a good rescue whatever else goes on .  I don't really see how that is questionable. I also don't think it is a bad thing that people are then encouraged to question practices at some of the charities they might want to support.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Damnation said:



			I would suggest that Chocolate Moonbeam has some form of direct link to the charity.

I would also suggest that all this is turning into is a slagging off match on the internet...

ETA: I am not defending anyone, or suggesting that any cruelty or otherwise is called for. This isn't the place...
		
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You would suggest wrong.


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## Damnation (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			you are right. I shall refrain from further responding to any moonbeams, chocolate or otherwise. I just can't stand ignorance.
		
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It can be difficult, but you its just turning into a very circular argument from someone who is obviously directly linked to this "charity". As they say, you can't educate pork


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## Damnation (17 August 2016)

ester said:



			I'm not sure that is the case. I think most hho users are fairly genned up that people buying up animals at fairs and markets does not make them a good rescue whatever else goes on .  I don't really see how that is questionable. I also don't think it is a bad thing that people are then encouraged to question practices at some of the charities they might want to support.
		
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Oh I see no harm in that, and if all of this is true about AHAR then its disgusting, but its just turning into a really circular argument with someone who appears to be very determined that neglecting horses is just fine and dandy!


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			so if you're no more knowledgeable than me how can you say the journalism was biased?
		
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A good unbiased journalist would at least visit the place she was investigating in order to see for herself.

How can a journalist report accurately and fairly if they haven't even been to the place?


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

ester said:



			I'm not sure that is the case. I think most hho users are fairly genned up that people buying up animals at fairs and markets does not make them a good rescue whatever else goes on .  I don't really see how that is questionable. I also don't think it is a bad thing that people are then encouraged to question practices at some of the charities they might want to support.
		
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which is one of the problems going on at AHAR. Anytime anyone seems to be asking a question that can be seen as even a little bit as criticism, the asker gets blocked and usually some ahar admin will post a nasty comment, which often includes words like vile, hater and troll.I support my local rescues only.and they are happy to answer any questions related to any animal in their care, currently or in the past.AHAR does no such thing.Big red flag


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## stormox (17 August 2016)

They did find someone there taking pictures, they showed her on their cctv, complaining someone was taking pictures without having notified them. Maybe that was the journalist??


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Damnation said:



			Oh I see no harm in that, and if all of this is true about AHAR then its disgusting, but its just turning into a really circular argument with someone who appears to be very determined that neglecting horses is just fine and dandy!
		
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Excuse me?  Where do you get off suggesting I think neglect of horses or any animal is fine and dandy?

I would however like to see the evidence of this so called neglect.

A horse in a field with a club foot isn't what I would call neglect.  Neither is a gosling with a cast on it's leg not in a pond neglect or cruelty either.

It's a rescue, animals come in who have been neglected, who are cruelty cases, of course you are going to see some awful sights there.  Skeletal horses with wounds, overlong feet etc etc.  Not all of them are going to be cured in 5 minutes.


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

No, wasn't the journalist.I remember that ruckus.How annoyed they were.And when i think back at those picture..they were harrowing.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

stormox said:



			They did find someone there taking pictures, they showed her on their cctv, complaining someone was taking pictures without having notified them. Maybe that was the journalist??
		
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Maybe, doesn't explain how the photos ended up on the exposed page a week or so before the article came out though.

What journalist would do that?


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## Dobiegirl (17 August 2016)

The evidence is there for everyone to see but you apparently, take off those rose colour spectacles and have another look.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			so if you're no more knowledgeable than me how can you say the journalism was biased?
		
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In the same way you can claim cruelty at the rescue that is the subject of this thread.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			The evidence is there for everyone to see but you apparently, take off those rose colour spectacles and have another look.
		
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Don't worry, I can understand you being hacked off that all your complaints, exposes, wild claims etc have all come to nothing.

Mind you, after all this time, I would be questioning myself and wondering if any of it was real.


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

ah.but I base my assessment on the state of a horse that has been in ahar's care for almost a full year and has deteriorated in a way that would never happened had it been treated.There are numerous ways on the web to find out how much a hoof grows per month..heck you can even ask here.Than look at the hoof today and do the calculations. Now, this is a circular argument and I am not going to entertain your rose colored views any further.I don't even like chocolate..;-)


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## Dobiegirl (17 August 2016)

It must pee you off that you cant report us or get the army to send us nasty threatening pms, everyone on this thread is not involved with the expose page but its funny how reading all the replies from people who have had dealings with Ahar and none of it is good. Doesnt that strike you as odd.


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## Cortez (17 August 2016)

Has anybody on this thread actually been to this rescue?


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

I have.


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## ester (17 August 2016)

I notice you haven't replied to my comment on the other horses also in the field. 

But anyone who can't see that an invited journo is unlikely to get the full story in this situation is a bit odd in my estimation anyway. The same that it is hard to take anyone who states that was a luxury piece of land truthfully.

but yes Molly, plenty of hoof geeks on here


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			It must pee you off that you cant report us or get the army to send us nasty threatening pms, everyone on this thread is not involved with the expose page but its funny how reading all the replies from people who have had dealings with Ahar and none of it is good. Doesnt that strike you as odd.
		
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Not really, there is only half a dozen or so people commenting on this thread.  Hardly masses of anti AHAR people when you consider the number of people on this forum.


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## stormox (17 August 2016)

I went when it was at the previous place, havent  been to this one, but it is open every saturday afternoon from 2-6. Strictly no cameras allowed and no wandering off looking where you arent told you can go.... I know a lot of people who have been, or are/were volunteers. Even volunteers arent allowed cameras in there. are told to leave them in the car.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			It must pee you off that you cant report us or get the army to send us nasty threatening pms, everyone on this thread is not involved with the expose page but its funny how reading all the replies from people who have had dealings with Ahar and none of it is good. Doesnt that strike you as odd.
		
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Why would I want to get anyone to send you anything.

I'm quite capable of voicing my own opinions on my own thanks.


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## ester (17 August 2016)

as a resident hoof geek 






If those hooves only had remedial shoes off 2 months ago you need to sack the farrier, I would actually say that that huge event line on the good hoof likely represents when the hooves came off......


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## Cortez (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			I have.
		
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So have I, about 3 months ago. It wasn't ideal by any means, but not exactly the Pit of Hell that many people are making it out to be. I've been to other amatuer rescues that were similar (some worse), which is why I feel that the whole business of animal "rescues" should be funded and regulated by the government - with hefty and potent enforcement regulation attached.


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## paddi22 (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Hero has a congenital club foot, meaning she was born with it.
		
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That wasn't what i asked you. Its a yes or no question.  Yes or no? Would you keep a horse in that condition (in awful condition, hobbling, not having correct farrier treatment). Would you? do you think thats right? yes or no?


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Not really, there is only half a dozen or so people commenting on this thread.  Hardly masses of anti AHAR people when you consider the number of people on this forum.
		
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most people don't know it exists as most are in the uk... DG never mentioned masses of anti AHAR people anyway?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

ester said:



			I notice you haven't replied to my comment on the other horses also in the field. 

But anyone who can't see that an invited journo is unlikely to get the full story in this situation is a bit odd in my estimation anyway. The same that it is hard to take anyone who states that was a luxury piece of land truthfully.

but yes Molly, plenty of hoof geeks on here 

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I must have missed that comment.  

I'm sure if you look at AHAR's facebook page you will see Hero and the skinny chestnut on there.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

ester said:



			most people don't know it exists as most are in the uk... DG never mentioned masses of anti AHAR people anyway?
		
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As you are according to your profile, yet you know about it.  In fact there seem to be at least a couple of other people from the UK posting in this thread.


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## stormox (17 August 2016)

I wouldnt, Paddi and I believe (having seen a mare like this before) that it isnt always treatable, shoes may help as may a tendon desmotomy to increase tendon length. It is the shortened tendons cause the club foot -'ballerina syndrome'- sometimes they have to be PTS as foals. Maybe that is why this pony was at the meatmans in the first place, which brings us round to the question "should rescues buy indiscriminately from the meatman"


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I'm sorry, I must have missed that comment.  

I'm sure if you look at AHAR's facebook page you will see Hero and the skinny chestnut on there.
		
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I can't find any mention of the chestnut, difficult among the long lists of recently purchased dogs (and pigeon!)


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			As you are according to your profile, yet you know about it.  In fact there seem to be at least a couple of other people from the UK posting in this thread.
		
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. I happen to know about it because I spend too much time online, I suspect others lead more interesting lives though


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## ester (17 August 2016)

stormox said:



			I wouldnt, Paddi and I believe (having seen a mare like this before) that it isnt always treatable, shoes may help as may a tendon desmotomy to increase tendon length. It is the shortened tendons cause the club foot -'ballerina syndrome'- sometimes they have to be PTS as foals. Maybe that is why this pony was at the meatmans in the first place, which brings us round to the question "should rescues buy indiscriminately from the meatman"
		
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Does AHAR have a no euth policy because looking at that poor girl it wouldn't be the worse thing to happen to her.


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## paddi22 (17 August 2016)

There is no way a farrier saw those hooves two months ago. not a chance. If chocolate moonbeam thinks that adequate care of an animal then they need to honestly stay away from animals and get a basic education on horse care. absolute cruelty, it broke my heart seeing that poor horse hobbling round.  Anyone who can't see that has a serious issue


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## ester (17 August 2016)

2 months... and essentially on that basis I see no reason to believe a single thing said on the AHAR page!


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## Cortez (17 August 2016)

ester said:



			Does AHAR have a no euth policy because looking at that poor girl it wouldn't be the worse thing to happen to her.
		
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Agreed. My main criticism of this rescue is that they seem to believe that "love" is a justifiable excuse for keeping animals alive that should really be euthanised. There are too many "he died in my arms, but he knew he was loved" posts for my comfort levels.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

ester said:



			as a resident hoof geek 






If those hooves only had remedial shoes off 2 months ago you need to sack the farrier, I would actually say that that huge event line on the good hoof likely represents when the hooves came off......
		
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And here she was a year ago.  Her hoofs were almost vertical then.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

stormox said:



			I wouldnt, Paddi and I believe (having seen a mare like this before) that it isnt always treatable, shoes may help as may a tendon desmotomy to increase tendon length. It is the shortened tendons cause the club foot -'ballerina syndrome'- sometimes they have to be PTS as foals. Maybe that is why this pony was at the meatmans in the first place, which brings us round to the question "should rescues buy indiscriminately from the meatman"
		
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I don't think she came from the meatman.


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## paddi22 (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I don't think she came from the meatman.
		
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i notice you still don't answer a basic yes or no on whether you think it's acceptable to keep a horse in that condition. I can't take you seriously at all if you keep hiding behind absolute lies that you've fallen for such,  as believing a farrier had been near that horse - when anyone with even a basic knowledge of hooves knows thats not true in any way shape or form.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			i notice you still don't answer a basic yes or no on whether you think it's acceptable to keep a horse in that condition. I can't take you seriously at all if you keep hiding behind absolute lies that you've fallen for such,  as believing a farrier had been near that horse - when anyone with even a basic knowledge of hooves knows thats not true in any way shape or form.
		
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I would do all I could for her.  I understand the next step for her is an operation as corrective shoeing obviously hasn't worked.

And yes, she was shod as there are photographs of her being shod and photos of her with shoes on her feet.


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## Dobiegirl (17 August 2016)

If you were a regular on this forum you might have noticed a year ago about a rescue called The Egypt Horse Project, based funnily enough in Egypt, lots of people who had never been there or Egypt commented on it and all had an opinion on it.

People commenting now wont have been to Ahar although they seem to be some people local to that area but this is a free forum and we are allowed to discuss these things. 

Ahar donators are mostly from abroad anyway and Ahar dont have a problem accepting their money so just because most of us live in England doesnt mean our opinions are not valid, cruelty is cruelty wherever it is.


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			And here she was a year ago.  Her hoofs were almost vertical then.








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sorry so you think they look better now?! with that nice slipper effect going on?! You clearly have no idea of hoof biomechanics.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			If you were a regular on this forum you might have noticed a year ago about a rescue called The Egypt Horse Project, based funnily enough in Egypt, lots of people who had never been there or Egypt commented on it and all had an opinion on it.

People commenting now wont have been to Ahar although they seem to be some people local to that area but this is a free forum and we are allowed to discuss these things. 

Ahar donators are mostly from abroad anyway and Ahar dont have a problem accepting their money so just because most of us live in England doesnt mean our opinions are not valid, cruelty is cruelty wherever it is.
		
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But you seem to have a problem with me having an opinion.

What are the rules here, only anti AHAR people can comment?


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I would do all I could for her.  I understand the next step for her is an operation as corrective shoeing obviously hasn't worked.

And yes, she was shod as there are photographs of her being shod and photos of her with shoes on her feet.
		
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for how long was she shod, because her last set of shoes did not come off 2 months previously. I am sure operating and the post op rehab will however go swimmingly for her.

Anyone can comment, but I think a bit of commonsense helps  those that seem to think that this pony's hooves are in better nick now than a year ago and were deshod 2 months ago are just coming from a place in lala  land.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

ester said:



			sorry so you think they look better now?! with that nice slipper effect going on?! You clearly have no idea of hoof biomechanics.
		
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Please quote where I said it looks better now.  I don't actually however think it looks a massive amount worse than it did back then.

Only major difference is longer hoofs.  The knuckling at the fetlock was evident then as it is now and that can be seen at the beginning of the video of her.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

ester said:



			for how long was she shod, because her last set of shoes did not come off 2 months previously. I am sure operating and the post op rehab will however go swimmingly for her.

Anyone can comment, but I think a bit of commonsense helps  those that seem to think that this pony's hooves are in better nick now than a year ago and were deshod 2 months ago are just coming from a place in lala  land.
		
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I've no idea, why don't you ask the farrier.


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## ester (17 August 2016)

you said they were almost vertical
I do not see that as a bad thing, 
so what was your point? 
I have seen the pictures of how they looked previously and when they were shod, I didn't need your picture which isn't a good pic to tell angles from anyway.
It doesn't stop them being shocking now, and many months deshod.


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I've no idea, why don't you ask the farrier.
		
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Because he isn't on this forum suggesting that this pony's feet and situation have not deteriorated and that AHAR are correct in saying shoes were only removed 2 months ago, that is why.

I mean I would have thought it was obvious that on a discussion on a forum you are talking to the people on the forum, not random other people?! :confused3:


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

ester said:



			you said they were almost vertical
I do not see that as a bad thing, 
so what was your point? 
I have seen the pictures of how they looked previously and when they were shod, I didn't need your picture which isn't a good pic to tell angles from anyway.
It doesn't stop them being shocking now, and many months deshod.
		
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Vertical hoofs isn't the correct way to treat it though is it?

At least not from the information I've been looking at.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

ester said:



			Because he isn't on this forum suggesting that this pony's feet and situation have not deteriorated and that AHAR are correct in saying shoes were only removed 2 months ago, that is why.

I mean I would have thought it was obvious that on a discussion on a forum you are talking to the people on the forum, not random other people?! :confused3:
		
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Well he would be the one with the information you want.  Hence, it is obvious he would be the one to contact to get the answers you want.


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Vertical hoofs isn't the correct way to treat it though is it?

At least not from the information I've been looking at.
		
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you are terribly selective on the bits you respond to.... so I am now not sure if you stand by the 'shoes removed 2 months ago' comment.


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## paddi22 (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I would do all I could for her.  I understand the next step for her is an operation as corrective shoeing obviously hasn't worked.

And yes, she was shod as there are photographs of her being shod and photos of her with shoes on her feet.
		
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thats rubbish.  That means you think its ok to have a crippled, sore, badly conditioned horse hobbling round uncared for in a rough field. They ARENT doing everything they can for her, very obviously they aren't.  Her feet were in much better condition before. she has gotten WORSE with them.  She might have been shod at one stage. but she is worse now. 

There are worse things than being pts peacefully for a horse.  There is loss of dignity, loss of quality of life, ignorance of care. and the kindest thing would have been to put that horse to sleep.

Of course they will get donations for an operation. And do you think their quality of care after the operation can be trusted? Honestly? If they've shown the low level of care they have after a farrier visit?


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Well he would be the one with the information you want.  Hence, it is obvious he would be the one to contact to get the answers you want.
		
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Yes, let me just dig out his number :confused3:. I presume AHAR would know but I would just get banned for questioning it with the very clear evidence so....


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## Dobiegirl (17 August 2016)

I dont have a problem with you having an opinion, its just you are making statements and not giving evidence to back it up just Ahar quotes.

There are a lot of very knowledgeable horsey people on this forum, far more knowledgeable than me and when I made this post I wanted to hear their opinions, they are all aghast at this poor pony and all can see she has not had treatment for a long time regardless of what Ahar says. When knowledgeable people like that give an opinion you take note, its obvious to me that you believe everything Ahar tell you well no one here is as I said connected to the expose page so people are giving their honest opinion and its not agreeing with you or Ahar.


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## ester (17 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			thats rubbish.  That means you think its ok to have a crippled, sore, badly conditioned horse hobbling round uncared for in a rough field. They ARENT doing everything they can for her, very obviously they aren't.  Her feet were in much better condition before. she has gotten WORSE with them.  She might have been shod at one stage. but she is worse now. 

There are worse things than being pts peacefully for a horse.  There is loss of dignity, loss of quality of life, ignorance of care. and the kindest thing would have been to put that horse to sleep.

Of course they will get donations for an operation. And do you think their quality of care after the operation can be trusted? Honestly? If they've shown the low level of care they have after a farrier visit?
		
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that would be my concern paddi, if they haven't been able to keep up with the farriery pre operation, how will they keep up with it (because it will still need to be done) after the operation, and all the other rehab necessary. But then when you have someone who thinks hooves being steep is not good however upright the pasterns I think we might be on a losing wicket...


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			thats rubbish.  That means you think its ok to have a crippled, sore, badly conditioned horse hobbling round uncared for in a rough field. They ARENT doing everything they can for her, very obviously they aren't.  Her feet were in much better condition before. she has gotten WORSE with them.  She might have been shod at one stage. but she is worse now. 

There are worse things than being pts peacefully for a horse.  There is loss of dignity, loss of quality of life, ignorance of care. and the kindest thing would have been to put that horse to sleep.

Of course they will get donations for an operation. And do you think their quality of care after the operation can be trusted? Honestly? If they've shown the low level of care they have after a farrier visit?
		
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It means exactly what it said.  I would do all I could for her, if all else failed then I would put her to sleep.  I would not just kill an animal because I couldn't be bothered with treatment, even if it was for the long haul.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			I dont have a problem with you having an opinion, its just you are making statements and not giving evidence to back it up just Ahar quotes.

There are a lot of very knowledgeable horsey people on this forum, far more knowledgeable than me and when I made this post I wanted to hear their opinions, they are all aghast at this poor pony and all can see she has not had treatment for a long time regardless of what Ahar says. When knowledgeable people like that give an opinion you take note, its obvious to me that you believe everything Ahar tell you well no one here is as I said connected to the expose page so people are giving their honest opinion and its not agreeing with you or Ahar.
		
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Do you have any self awareness at all?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

ester said:



			that would be my concern paddi, if they haven't been able to keep up with the farriery pre operation, how will they keep up with it (because it will still need to be done) after the operation, and all the other rehab necessary. But then when you have someone who thinks hooves being steep is not good however upright the pasterns I think we might be on a losing wicket...
		
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How do you propose stretching the ligaments if the hooves are almost vertical.  The horse is standing on tip toe, it's like wearing a pair of stiletto's.


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## paddi22 (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			It means exactly what it said.  I would do all I could for her, if all else failed then I would put her to sleep.  I would not just kill an animal because I couldn't be bothered with treatment, even if it was for the long haul.
		
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so from that statement i take that 'all you could' means to leave it in a field, hobbling round, in pain, uncared for, with no pain relief. And not have a farrier regularly check it.

if thats the kind of person you are, then fine. You need to take a long look at yourself and try and seperate the high you get from 'saving animals' from the actual reality of what you are doing which is enabling more cruelty.


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## Dobiegirl (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Do you have any self awareness at all?
		
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What is that supposed to mean? and why have you come to that conclusion?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			so from that statement i take that 'all you could' means to leave it in a field, hobbling round, in pain, uncared for, with no pain relief. And not have a farrier regularly check it.

if thats the kind of person you are, then fine. You need to take a long look at yourself and try and seperate the high you get from 'saving animals' from the actual reality of what you are doing which is enabling more cruelty.
		
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Sorry, could you provide the evidence that the horse was uncared for and had no pain relief?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			What is that supposed to mean? and why have you come to that conclusion?
		
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It means you were describing yourself exactly.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

ester said:



			Yes, let me just dig out his number :confused3:. I presume AHAR would know but I would just get banned for questioning it with the very clear evidence so....
		
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I'm sure you could find it easily enough.


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## paddi22 (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			How do you propose stretching the ligaments if the hooves are almost vertical.  The horse is standing on tip toe, it's like wearing a pair of stiletto's.
		
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no one is saying to stretch anything. i would hazard a guess that most of the posters here would have put the poor animal to sleep before the situation developed that much.  Can you not see how cruel it is that they aren't getting a farrier up constantly to check it? I've a mini with a club foot and my farrier comes every six weeks.  

 I am infuriated that they would even consider getting that poor creature an operation, when they haven't shown even BASIC care in hoof care.


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## Dobiegirl (17 August 2016)

Completely lost me? clutching at straws now are you?, however you dress it up you cant excuse cruelty and to try and distract with weirds comments just proves it.


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## kiskadee (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Is it illegal for a registered charity to ask for donations?
		
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No not to my knowledge


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			no one is saying to stretch anything. i would hazard a guess that most of the posters here would have put the poor animal to sleep before the situation developed that much.  Can you not see how cruel it is that they aren't getting a farrier up constantly to check it? I've a mini with a club foot and my farrier comes every six weeks.  

 I am infuriated that they would even consider getting that poor creature an operation, when they haven't shown even BASIC care in hoof care.
		
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I may be mistaken, but I understand that a near normal shaped hoof with everything in correct alignment is the desired end for a horse with club foot, otherwise, what's the point of treatment?


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## paddi22 (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Sorry, could you provide the evidence that the horse was uncared for and had no pain relief?
		
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eh have you watched the video? the horse is in rubbish condition, rubbish coat, in bad condition. so its fairly safe to say its not getting feed/vitamins etc. The coat and poor condition shows that.

The way its hobbling and how misearable it looks (as shown in the video also) would also show it's feeling sore and hasn't received pain relief.

the length and condition of the hooves shows the farrier hasn't been near it for a long time. Also proving no care.

all things are proved so. happy?  

I've a field of my horses outside and i can go out and take pics this second to show happy, gleaming, healthy horses, even the one with the club foot.

Can you show me the proof of photos of the horse in good condition with a gleaming summer coat, moving happily around and not showing pain in its eyes? and if you can't then why not?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

kiskadee said:



			No not to my knowledge
		
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I didn't think it was, thank you


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## paddi22 (17 August 2016)

i seriously doubt your mental capacity now, honestly. If thats the goal (as you state yourself) why would you leave it in a field untreated for months? you honestly can't be that naieve?


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## stormox (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I don't think she came from the meatman.
		
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Someone wrote on one of the  the FB pages she did, in answer to a question


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			eh have you watched the video? the horse is in rubbish condition, rubbish coat, in bad condition. so its fairly safe to say its not getting feed/vitamins etc. The coat and poor condition shows that.

The way its hobbling and how misearable it looks (as shown in the video also) would also show it's feeling sore and hasn't received pain relief.

the length and condition of the hooves shows the farrier hasn't been near it for a long time. Also proving no care.

all things are proved so. happy?  

I've a field of my horses outside and i can go out and take pics this second to show happy, gleaming, healthy horses, even the one with the club foot.

Can you show me the proof of photos of the horse in good condition with a gleaming summer coat, moving happily around and not showing pain in its eyes? and if you can't then why not?
		
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Are we watching the same video. The coat looks fine to me and she seems to be well covered and well, I don't think we got close enough to see her eyes and for some odd reason the face was blurred out.


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## paddi22 (17 August 2016)

yes we are watching the same video. I just took my rose tinted glass off and that's what it doesn't look blurry to me.

you should try that


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

stormox said:



			Someone wrote on one of the  the FB pages she did, in answer to a question
		
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The clip of her in the field with the other pony at the beginning of the video came from the AHAR page which as I understand it is where she was found.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			i seriously doubt your mental capacity now, honestly. If thats the goal (as you state yourself) why would you leave it in a field untreated for months? you honestly can't be that naieve?
		
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The explanation given was to give her a break on grass before her operation and a long winter inside.

Don't shoot the messenger.


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## stormox (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			The clip of her in the field with the other pony at the beginning of the video came from the AHAR page which as I understand it is where she was found.
		
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Someone posted a question on FB where did AHAR get her from when she first went to AHAR and before she went to Abbeyfeale, it was answered that she came from the meatman. So AHAR are buying horses from the  meatman to 'save' them, when really, IMHO, this particular one could have been saved a lot of suffering by being left with him.


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## kiskadee (17 August 2016)

Instead of all being up in arms about this post why don't you all use your energies to try and get change in Ireland to the appalling welfare crisis that they face.  Why don't you start lobbying the Irish Parliament to try and do something about the appalling equine, then we all might be starting to help these poor animals  Then you really would be doing something to help with animal welfare.  In fact why are you not for those of you who are UK based, not campaigning with the British Government to bring in a minimum age that an equine can be driven and campaigning against tethering and the unwanted breeding especially of travellers horses.


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## Dobiegirl (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			The explanation given was to give her a break on grass before her operation and a long winter inside.

Don't shoot the messenger.
		
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But she is not on grass, well not grass as we would describe it on here,, its scrub land do you think that field is suitable for horses in rehab? because to me nothing is going to thrive on that and surely you can see that.


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## paddi22 (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			The explanation given was to give her a break on grass before her operation and a long winter inside.

Don't shoot the messenger.
		
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do you just believe everything you are told.  There is NO PLANET in the galaxy where a vet would recommend turning a horse out to just hobble round in pain and not been treated by a farrier. do you honestly think a vet would go down and look at a horse that is leaning back in pain, afraid to put weight on its left fore, with overlong and cracked hooves (and my guess would be white line damage and limi) and think thats fine? really?  did you believe it just because someone told you? can you not look at how that poor horse is hobbling and wonder if you've been lied to?


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## paddi22 (17 August 2016)

kiskadee said:



			Instead of all being up in arms about this post why don't you all use your energies to try and get change in Ireland to the appalling welfare crisis that they face.  Why don't you start lobbying the Irish Parliament to try and do something about the appalling equine, then we all might be starting to help these poor animals  Then you really would be doing something to help with animal welfare.  In fact why are you not for those of you who are UK based, not campaigning with the British Government to bring in a minimum age that an equine can be driven and campaigning against tethering and the unwanted breeding especially of travellers horses.
		
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 eh i do. i rehome and retrain horses from the pound so they can have good lives and a future. I can look in my field this minute and see 6 rescue horses that came in **** condition.  I work with a horse charity.  I've a sulky racer there thats came to me broken since she was 8 months and is not getting a well deserved break. I petition everyone i can.    And i'd hazerd a guess a lot of the posters on this thread do genuine work to help horses as well.

So you can sit down with the judgy comments and actually aim them at the people who donate money to animal hoarders with a saint complex who actually inflict cruelty while fleecing cash off well meaning idiots


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## kiskadee (17 August 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			But she is not on grass, well not grass as we would describe it on here,, its scrub land do you think that field is suitable for horses in rehab? because to me nothing is going to thrive on that and surely you can see that.
		
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Yes its great grazing for rehab actually as its the same as I have here in Wales.  The worst grass you could put a rehab case that has been starved is on good cow pasture or lush grazing.  It is far better to be a good rough lay with sedge which is the thicker grass and a number of natural herbs.  And yes I do know what I am talking about as an equine scientist.  In respect of the poor horse that has been featured actually she does not have a club foot but contracted tendons.  Treatment is a complicated and difficult one in this situtation


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			How do you propose stretching the ligaments if the hooves are almost vertical.  The horse is standing on tip toe, it's like wearing a pair of stiletto's.
		
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As I said before, I don't think you understand the biomechanics here. The horse isn't on tip toe now, she is knuckled over. . .


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Sorry, could you provide the evidence that the horse was uncared for and had no pain relief?
		
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Those hoof pics aren't enough that remedial farriery was not occuring for the year period recommended by the vets? ergo the horse was uncared for.


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I may be mistaken, but I understand that a near normal shaped hoof with everything in correct alignment is the desired end for a horse with club foot, otherwise, what's the point of treatment?
		
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yes you maybe mistaken, because it depends why the club foot is occurring as to what the end goal is, it may well end up being taller than the other because often in these instances one leg is longer than the other too. However what you describe is not going to happen if you take the pony's shoes off months ago and just turn it away in a field is it, I don't think you can describe it as 'treatment' so far.


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			The explanation given was to give her a break on grass before her operation and a long winter inside.

Don't shoot the messenger.
		
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And the evidence, which you are so keen on shows that clearly did not happen 2 months ago as stated by AHAR. So I for one am not particularly satisfied with that as an explanation.


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## ester (17 August 2016)

kiskadee said:



			Instead of all being up in arms about this post why don't you all use your energies to try and get change in Ireland to the appalling welfare crisis that they face.  Why don't you start lobbying the Irish Parliament to try and do something about the appalling equine, then we all might be starting to help these poor animals  Then you really would be doing something to help with animal welfare.  In fact why are you not for those of you who are UK based, not campaigning with the British Government to bring in a minimum age that an equine can be driven and campaigning against tethering and the unwanted breeding especially of travellers horses.
		
Click to expand...

How do you know people don't already do that?
And usually what happens is a post is posted as the subject, we usually try and stay on that subject as much as possible so while all important issues they happen not to be the one being discussed here?


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## paddi22 (17 August 2016)

kiskadee said:



			Yes its great grazing for rehab actually as its the same as I have here in Wales.  The worst grass you could put a rehab case that has been starved is on good cow pasture or lush grazing.  It is far better to be a good rough lay with sedge which is the thicker grass and a number of natural herbs.  And yes I do know what I am talking about as an equine scientist.  In respect of the poor horse that has been featured actually she does not have a club foot but contracted tendons.  Treatment is a complicated and difficult one in this situtation
		
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as an equine scientist would you recommend putting a horse on land that was apparently a golf course and would have had toxis substances on it for a long time?


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

kiskadee said:



			Yes its great grazing for rehab actually as its the same as I have here in Wales.  The worst grass you could put a rehab case that has been starved is on good cow pasture or lush grazing.  It is far better to be a good rough lay with sedge which is the thicker grass and a number of natural herbs.  And yes I do know what I am talking about as an equine scientist.  In respect of the poor horse that has been featured actually she does not have a club foot but contracted tendons.  Treatment is a complicated and difficult one in this situtation
		
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I would agree with you if the horse had not been on other land/stable before and was reasonable fit. And Hero does have a clubfoot-caused bu contracted tendons. Clubfoot is a symptom of those.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

stormox said:



			Someone posted a question on FB where did AHAR get her from when she first went to AHAR and before she went to Abbeyfeale, it was answered that she came from the meatman. So AHAR are buying horses from the  meatman to 'save' them, when really, IMHO, this particular one could have been saved a lot of suffering by being left with him.
		
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You are wrong, she did not come from the meat man.

https://www.facebook.com/ahar.ie/videos/1036813596338333/


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

ester said:



			As I said before, I don't think you understand the biomechanics here. The horse isn't on tip toe now, she is knuckled over. . .
		
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If you watch the video of when she was rescued, she was knuckling over then too.


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			If you watch the video of when she was rescued, she was knuckling over then too.
		
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only minor. she's now almost walking on her knuckle


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## ester (17 August 2016)

Yes the degree of knuckling has got much, much worse.
And she has still definitely had more than 2 months out of shoes.


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

here's what my own farrier had to say-he's a registerd master farrier.And my vet.

 9 month growth on soft ground, 12+ on hard.Vet assesment~ severe neglect of a tendon problem.Prognosis: unfavourable. Ra: euthanize humanely.


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## stormox (17 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			You are wrong, she did not come from the meat man.

https://www.facebook.com/ahar.ie/videos/1036813596338333/

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Thanks for the video and the info, you are right, it doesnt say meatman, it was on the other AHAR exposed site it said they thought she was from there. But she looks so much better in your link than she does now, after a year with AHAR


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## Dowjones (17 August 2016)

There are far far worse fates for an animal than death and this is a prime example.


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

Dowjones said:



			There are far far worse fates for an animal than death and this is a prime example. 

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agreed. but quality of life never seems to be a concern at ahar


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## Dowjones (17 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			agreed. but quality of life never seems to be a concern at ahar
		
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It seems to be a trend from several "rescues." I don't think it's possible to make some people see sense, as this thread clearly shows. 
A blind person could see that this is sort of carry on is cruelty....


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## Mollylittle (17 August 2016)

Dowjones said:



			It seems to be a trend from several "rescues." I don't think it's possible to make some people see sense, as this thread clearly shows. 
A blind person could see that this is sort of carry on is cruelty....
		
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you can't teach blind people to see. they will learn when they hurt themselves walking into corners.I'm just very sad for all the helpless souls in the 'care' of this 'rescue'


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

stormox said:



			Thanks for the video and the info, you are right, it doesnt say meatman, it was on the other AHAR exposed site it said they thought she was from there. But she looks so much better in your link than she does now, after a year with AHAR
		
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They think lots of things on there that are pie in the sky.

They make it up as they go along usually.


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## paddi22 (17 August 2016)

...says the woman who believes a horse with at least 9 months hoofgrowth (according to a farrier) is being lovingly tended to with regular farrier visits


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			...says the woman who believes a horse with at least 9 months hoofgrowth (according to a farrier) is being lovingly tended to with regular farrier visits
		
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Oh you do love to put words into people's mouths don't you.  Can you please show me exactly where I said anything like that?


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## paddi22 (17 August 2016)

i just thought it was ironic you'd accuse another page of making stuff up when a lot of the stuff on the AHAR original page is pure fiction and blatantly misleading.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			i just thought it was ironic you'd accuse another page of making stuff up when a lot of the stuff on the AHAR original page is pure fiction and blatantly misleading.
		
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You don't think they make stuff up?

Diggers going in and finding carcasses?  Accusations of being a horse dealer, scamming, defrauding donators, bribing the DOA, dead horses on the land and that's just a few things all posted with absolutely no proof to back them up.


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## paddi22 (17 August 2016)

what about Marie Nic Ghinneas horses. All of who went to AHAR in excellent condition for rehoming photo proof of that) .  AHAR lied about the homes they were going to. 4 months later, horses look terrible. Another woman takes one on to rehab and retrain and returns it AHAR who promise it has a home. 6 months later horse appears for sale. The woman writes to the seller who responds by saying she was told by AHAR owner it was ok to sell. The story gets worse from there. All people have proof.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (17 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			what about Marie Nic Ghinneas horses. All of who went to AHAR in excellent condition for rehoming photo proof of that) .  AHAR lied about the homes they were going to. 4 months later, horses look terrible. Another woman takes one on to rehab and retrain and returns it AHAR who promise it has a home. 6 months later horse appears for sale. The woman writes to the seller who responds by saying she was told by AHAR owner it was ok to sell. The story gets worse from there. All people have proof.
		
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Why would someone with apparently valuable horses sign them over to a rescue, any rescue?  I find that a little bit odd, don't you?

If she didn't want to sell them, why not advertise them for loan?


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## Equi (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Why would someone with apparently valuable horses sign them over to a rescue, any rescue?  I find that a little bit odd, don't you?

If she didn't want to sell them, why not advertise them for loan?
		
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Because revues are supposed to vet homes and keep in touch. Both of these things are not very well practiced at ahar


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

equi said:



			Because revues are supposed to vet homes and keep in touch. Both of these things are not very well practiced at ahar
		
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But doesn't signing over your pet to a rescue mean you have relinquished your rights to information about the animal?


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## Equi (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			But doesn't signing over your pet to a rescue mean you have relinquished your rights to information about the animal?
		
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No it means you hope they can get it a better home than you can currently offer. Most good rescues would love to give owners a good update. They are much more likely to get donations that way. And anyway rescues SHOULD NOT be selling any animals. Again something ahar are very lenient with.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Why would someone with apparently valuable horses sign them over to a rescue, any rescue?  I find that a little bit odd, don't you?

If she didn't want to sell them, why not advertise them for loan?
		
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i don;t think it's odd at all. Some people hate the idea of selling in case the animals life goes downhill, and they trust a charity to find a good home and keep tabs on it.

some people need to take an emotional or mental break from horses and think a charity is a good option if they can't handle the stress of finding a new homes.

Some people don't put them out on loan because they don't have the funds or circumstances to take the horses back in an emergency.

As for your point about signing over rights. That's spoken like a defensive lawyer instead of an animal lover.  Why should signing it over mean your lose all right to information. I work with a charity here and people often give up horses voluntarily, and the charity has no issue in keeping the old owners updated and sending them photos. It's not an issue for them because they vet all homes and they've nothing to hide. If the charity has nothing to hide what's wrong with keeping the owner updated.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			i don;t think it's odd at all. Some people hate the idea of selling in case the animals life goes downhill, and they trust a charity to find a good home and keep tabs on it.

some people need to take an emotional or mental break from horses and think a charity is a good option if they can't handle the stress of finding a new homes.

Some people don't put them out on loan because they don't have the funds or circumstances to take the horses back in an emergency.

As for your point about signing over rights. That's spoken like a defensive lawyer instead of an animal lover.  Why should signing it over mean your lose all right to information. I work with a charity here and people often give up horses voluntarily, and the charity has no issue in keeping the old owners updated and sending them photos. It's not an issue for them because they vet all homes and they've nothing to hide. If the charity has nothing to hide what's wrong with keeping the owner updated.
		
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+1!! That EXACTLY the word I have been looking for  when it comes to AHAR. They are great defense lawyers.Any logical argument is either not responded to, the asker gets blocked and attacked or they come up with a 'defense' that is soo far fetched you can't even see the end of the string....


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			i don;t think it's odd at all. Some people hate the idea of selling in case the animals life goes downhill, and they trust a charity to find a good home and keep tabs on it.

some people need to take an emotional or mental break from horses and think a charity is a good option if they can't handle the stress of finding a new homes.

Some people don't put them out on loan because they don't have the funds or circumstances to take the horses back in an emergency.

As for your point about signing over rights. That's spoken like a defensive lawyer instead of an animal lover.  Why should signing it over mean your lose all right to information. I work with a charity here and people often give up horses voluntarily, and the charity has no issue in keeping the old owners updated and sending them photos. It's not an issue for them because they vet all homes and they've nothing to hide. If the charity has nothing to hide what's wrong with keeping the owner updated.
		
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Yes, I'm sure charities have time to keep tabs on every animal they have rehomed over the years.  After all, it's not as if they don't have animals to tend to is it? 

Charities are reliant on new owners keeping them updated, if they don't do that then what is the charity supposed to do.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Yes, I'm sure charities have time to keep tabs on every animal they have rehomed over the years.  After all, it's not as if they don't have animals to tend to is it? 

Charities are reliant on new owners keeping them updated, if they don't do that then what is the charity supposed to do.
		
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ow rubbish.Every single charity I ever worked with could tell me years after they rehomed an animal how it was doing.And if they didn't know straight away they would find out and respond.Problem with AHAR is that they don't even like you asking. Again, circular argument, not relevant to Hero and it is quite obvious to me that some people are simply too stupid to accept that soemthing is wrong when it's blatantly obvious to see for anyone with at least 1 braincell.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			ow rubbish.Every single charity I ever worked with could tell me years after they rehomed an animal how it was doing.And if they didn't know straight away they would find out and respond.Problem with AHAR is that they don't even like you asking. Again, circular argument, not relevant to Hero and it is quite obvious to me that some people are simply too stupid to accept that soemthing is wrong when it's blatantly obvious to see for anyone with at least 1 braincell.
		
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Some charities rehome hundreds of animals every year, are you seriously trying to tell me they keep tabs on every single one of them.

Somehow, I very much doubt it.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Some charities rehome hundreds of animals every year, are you seriously trying to tell me they keep tabs on every single one of them.

Somehow, I very much doubt it.
		
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just try it out.ask one. or better even, ask Ahar and see what you get


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			just try it out.ask one. or better even, ask Ahar and see what you get
		
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Ok, I'll ask the RSPCA or Battersea Cats and Dogs home.

I'm sure they know everything about every single animal they have rehomed in the past 20 years.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

I'm pretty sure they do as they actually have the relevant paperwork!!


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Some charities rehome hundreds of animals every year, are you seriously trying to tell me they keep tabs on every single one of them.
		
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YES. There's an amazing software programme called excel. You should try it. It's a modern miracle. You type in a line for every horse with its name, microchip number and contact details for the new owner. I know it sounds like something space age and too futuristic but we live in a wonderful, modern world. Then when the old owners make contact, this miraculous piece of software lets you find details for the horses new owners. Who (because they aren't dodgy and understand basic horse care) are perfectly happy to show off how much they love their horse and how well cared for it is.   What's amazing about the piece of software is that you can keep adding lines to it, so you don't have to memorise every single new owner. I believe if people want to do it the old fashioned way there is also ledger books and pens that do the same job. 

Loads of the charities actually care and remember about each horse. The also encourage people to do updates on facebook. 

The only charities that don't do this are the ones that have something to hide. Otherwise, why wouldn't they?


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			YES. There's an amazing software programme called excel. You should try it. It's a modern miracle. You type in a line for every horse with its name, microchip number and contact details for the new owner. I know it sounds like something space age and too futuristic but we live in a wonderful, modern world. Then when the old owners make contact, this miraculous piece of software lets you find details for the horses new owners. Who (because they aren't dodgy and understand basic horse care) are perfectly happy to show off how much they love their horse and how well cared for it is.   What's amazing about the piece of software is that you can keep adding lines to it, so you don't have to memorise every single new owner. I believe if people want to do it the old fashioned way there is also ledger books and pens that do the same job. 

Loads of the charities actually care and remember about each horse. The also encourage people to do updates on facebook. 

The only charities that don't do this are the ones that have something to hide. Otherwise, why wouldn't they?
		
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Now that made me laugh. You are so right!!!


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## ester (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			You don't think they make stuff up?

Diggers going in and finding carcasses?  Accusations of being a horse dealer, scamming, defrauding donators, bribing the DOA, dead horses on the land and that's just a few things all posted with absolutely no proof to back them up.
		
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If you are buying animals at fairs and rehoming them for a fee that's pretty close to dealing in my book. Buying animals certainly isn't rescue.

I don't find someone signing their horses over to a rescue odd at all, it happens fairly frequently if you can find someone to take them because you supposedly completely secure their future. 
I find it more odd that someone can think that Hero hasn't deteriorated under AHAR's care and that their explanations for things are the truth when the evidence says otherwise.


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## Blurr (18 August 2016)

I've never been to AHAR, never even heard of them before I read this thread.  But it's quite obvious from the pictures and videos that the pony is in a worse state now than it was one year ago.  

The shoes may indeed only have been removed two months ago.  But if that's the case, they were clearly left on far too long and no attempt at trimming was made at that time.

As long as there are well meaning uninformed people willing to give money to ersatz charities, there will be people with a saint complex and/or eye for a fast buck all too willing to take advantage of them.


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## Mince Pie (18 August 2016)

Is AHAR a registered charity, if so where can I find their accounts?


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

They are a registered charity but their accounts are not made publicly available.YTou'll find some info here:

https://www.charitiesregulatoryauthority.ie/en/CRA/Charity/BB6FA61E4DADE8AD8025800B003B0E29

however the figures given by the CRA are not audited.they simply fill in what the chartity tells them


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1040292222718801&id=795034397244586


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## Mince Pie (18 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			They are a registered charity but their accounts are not made publicly available.YTou'll find some info here:

https://www.charitiesregulatoryauthority.ie/en/CRA/Charity/BB6FA61E4DADE8AD8025800B003B0E29

however the figures given by the CRA are not audited.they simply fill in what the chartity tells them
		
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A registered must legally publish accounts every year...



			By law, every charity must prepare a set of accounts. Registered charities must prepare a Trustees Annual Report, a set of accounts, and an Annual Return.

The aim of accounts and reports is to provide a clear picture of your charitys activities and financial position. The Trustees Annual Report is also an opportunity to describe your work to the public and to funding bodies. Although these requirements may seem rather onerous to a small charity, they do require you to define your aims and activities clearly and to manage your finances well, both of which help to ensure that your organisation is more effective.
		
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http://www.resourcecentre.org.uk/information/charity-reporting-and-accounts/

http://www.wheel.ie/content/financial-reporting-charities




			Financial Reporting Standards for Charities  Current Requirements (June 2016)

All registered charities are required to complete an annual return to the CRA, by 10 months after the financial year end.  This is an online process and includes:

Providing details of your charity's activities during the reporting period
Providing income and expenditure information about your charity
Uploading accounts and reports as pdfs for the period
Making a declaration that your charity's details are up to date and your annual return is complete.
		
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I'd be very interested to see the accounts, and I would like to know why she is not publishing them. Chocolate-wotsit, perhaps you can enlighten us?


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Mince Pie said:



			A registered must legally publish accounts every year...


http://www.resourcecentre.org.uk/information/charity-reporting-and-accounts/

http://www.wheel.ie/content/financial-reporting-charities



I'd be very interested to see the accounts, and I would like to know why she is not publishing them. Chocolate-wotsit, perhaps you can enlighten us?
		
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That is correct.However,the detailed accounts are never published unless the charity has also incorporated as a business in which case the accounts can be pulled from the CRO or it is over the 10k income bracket.(company registration office).As you can see in my link, AHAR has staid officially within the lower that 10k income bracket, and, as such, the requirement to publish detailed accounts becomes non-existent.Nicely plaid.


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## ester (18 August 2016)

better be a cheap surgery to stay within the 10k income bracket...


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

you bet.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

yep, the amount of life saving operations they do would have to be over 10K. Is there anyway of tracking donations?


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## Mince Pie (18 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			That is correct.However,the detailed accounts are never published unless the charity has also incorporated as a business in which case the accounts can be pulled from the CRO or it is over the 10k income bracket.(company registration office).As you can see in my link, AHAR has staid officially within the lower that 10k income bracket, and, as such, the requirement to publish detailed accounts becomes non-existent.Nicely plaid.
		
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			A charity with a Gross Annual income of less than 10,000 is required to complete the financial information section.  It is optional for a charity in this income bracket to submit a profit and loss account (or income and expenditure account and statement of assets and liabilities) for the reporting period.
		
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I can't seem to find these details?

ETA: Just found this on the CRA link posted above, declared funds are a hell of a lot more than 10k!!


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			yep, the amount of life saving operations they do would have to be over 10K. Is there anyway of tracking donations?
		
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no, not for an outsider although I have seen bankstatements at some point in time and the money coming in was flabbergasting.No idea how the bankstatements were obtained, there was a huge uproar about it.i still might have some of them.
Re the 10k - the statement says : profit. So, for a non financial person: That is the difference between income and expenditure. Ahar stated this:
Gross income in reporting period as supplied by the charity: &#8364;287,625
Total expenditure in reporting period as supplied by the charity: &#8364;292,215

As such, they are making a net loss of  4,590 euro.


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## ester (18 August 2016)

ah so as long as they aren't putting anything by for a rainy day they're ok.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			ah so as long as they aren't putting anything by for a rainy day they're ok.
		
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they are spending it all as it comes in-allthough mostly not on animals one would think (unless buying them)  and the few that are displayed as succses stories


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Mince Pie said:



			A registered must legally publish accounts every year...


http://www.resourcecentre.org.uk/information/charity-reporting-and-accounts/

http://www.wheel.ie/content/financial-reporting-charities



I'd be very interested to see the accounts, and I would like to know why she is not publishing them. Chocolate-wotsit, perhaps you can enlighten us?
		
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You've seen the accounts and as far as I am aware no charity has to provide detailed accounts to anyone but the authority they are registered with.

As you will have seen from what you found the accounts did have to be audited and there is no reason or evidence to suggest they weren't.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

would you agree the ISPCA is an animal rescue? Dogs trust?

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=396919&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=466282&type=C

do i need to go on?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			no, not for an outsider although I have seen bankstatements at some point in time and the money coming in was flabbergasting.No idea how the bankstatements were obtained, there was a huge uproar about it.i still might have some of them.
Re the 10k - the statement says : profit. So, for a non financial person: That is the difference between income and expenditure. Ahar stated this:
Gross income in reporting period as supplied by the charity: &#8364;287,625
Total expenditure in reporting period as supplied by the charity: &#8364;292,215

As such, they are making a net loss of  4,590 euro.
		
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Would that be the one's that were stolen by a volunteer and then put online?


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Would that be the one's that were stolen by a volunteer and then put online?
		
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I have no idea.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			would you agree the ISPCA is an animal rescue? Dogs trust?

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=396919&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=466282&type=C

do i need to go on?
		
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Companies registration office?

Yeah, they may be a rescue but from this it appears they also operate as a business of which AHAR is not.

Different strokes and all that.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Companies registration office?

Yeah, they may be a rescue but from this it appears they also operate as a business of which AHAR is not.

Different strokes and all that.
		
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exactly my point. I have no problems if a rescue operates as a business - as long as no animal suffers as a result and and the charitative objectives of the business are achieved. AHAR does neither. And they know exactly how to remain under the veil of obscurity, getting away with murder - literally.


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## ester (18 August 2016)

And as I said earlier purchasing animals and rehoming them for a fee sounds much more like a business than the ISPCA or dogs trust to me.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			And as I said earlier purchasing animals and rehoming them for a fee sounds much more like a business than the ISPCA or dogs trust to me.
		
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Except as I understand it, there is no rehoming fee for horses.


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## s4sugar (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Except as I understand it, there is no rehoming fee for horses.
		
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No they make a charge instead.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Would that be the one's that were stolen by a volunteer and then put online?
		
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if everythings above board whats the issue with them being online? surely it would strengthen the charities case if everything was above board.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			if everythings above board whats the issue with them being online? surely it would strengthen the charities case if everything was above board.
		
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The issue isn't them being online, the issue is them being online without permission to publish them.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

s4sugar said:



			No they make a charge instead.
		
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Do they?

Can you provide evidence of that?


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## ester (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Except as I understand it, there is no rehoming fee for horses.
		
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I may have mentioned horses earlier in response to your dealer comment but you will note in the post you quoted I specifically said 'animals' on the basis that I imagine that they have a much higher turn over of smaller beasts.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			I may have mentioned horses earlier in response to your dealer comment but you will note in the post you quoted I specifically said 'animals' on the basis that I imagine that they have a much higher turn over of smaller beasts.
		
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They do, but as I'm sure you are aware many of the dogs come from the pound and owner surrender.

Only a few are acquired from fairs.

Do you have a problem with the people at the Yulin festival purchasing dogs too?


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## YorksG (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			They do, but as I'm sure you are aware many of the dogs come from the pound and owner surrender.

Only a few are acquired from fairs.

Do you have a problem with the people at the Yulin festival purchasing dogs too?
		
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I think most people would have a problem if they bought them, as a rescue and charity, and then charged for re-homing them, as that sounds like dealing rather than any form of rescue.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

YorksG said:



			I think most people would have a problem if they bought them, as a rescue and charity, and then charged for re-homing them, as that sounds like dealing rather than any form of rescue.
		
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So you'd be happy for them to purchase them, pay for all their veterinary treatment and then not recoup any of the costs to help the next animals that come along, purchased from abusers, found wandering the streets or whatever?


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## ester (18 August 2016)

I am not happy about them purchasing animals and maintaining a paying outlet for them for bin end breeders of ireland. It is that first part I have issue with, however 'few' it is.
I have no issue with rehoming fees.


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## stormox (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			der.

Only a few are acquired from fairs.

o?
		
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I do know they showed on their page 7 dogs bought at Puck,and thats just one fair. Most of them were in good condition. But what bothers me most is that they buy dogs (and other animals) early in the day, so stopping nice, ordinary homes, that would be a home for life, buying them. 
I know buying at a fair isnt the best thing to do, but the ordinary person buying is buying a dog for themselves as a pet, and if AHAR buy them they are encouraging 'back yard breeders' as much as a pet person buying.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			They do, but as I'm sure you are aware many of the dogs come from the pound and owner surrender.

Only a few are acquired from fairs.

Do you have a problem with the people at the Yulin festival purchasing dogs too?
		
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buying from fairs encourages those people to go off and breed more. the money would be better spent education people to rehome from pounds or regulated breeders. AHAR are making the situation WORSE! those fair breeders just go home and breed another batch, they must be delighted to have guaranteed punters at the fairs. If they went to the fair and noone ever bought puppies they'd stop doing it. AHAR are actually enabling these fair breeders.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			So you'd be happy for them to purchase them, pay for all their veterinary treatment and then not recoup any of the costs to help the next animals that come along, purchased from abusers, found wandering the streets or whatever?
		
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So if they do all that for the dogs - lets for a moment accept that - why are there no rehoming fees for the horses as you state? Doesn't that imply they do not get any treatment before rehoming?


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## ester (18 August 2016)

The pigeon looked in pretty good nick too . 

That isn't rescue it is just buying animals in good condition and there is no reasons to say that the unvetted homes they are sent to by AHAR who then don't keep any tabs on them as already established because they can't manage excel will be any better than those of other people buying them at the fair.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			I am not happy about them purchasing animals and maintaining a paying outlet for them for bin end breeders of ireland. It is that first part I have issue with, however 'few' it is.
I have no issue with rehoming fees.
		
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Ok, so next time you go to the republic of ireland, make sure you take a bin bag with you to pick up all those little dead animals up as it seems to me this has become a real issue and not just there.

Personally, I would rather a few quid change hands than pick up the abused and broken bodies of animals that never asked to be born.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			buying from fairs encourages those people to go off and breed more. the money would be better spent education people to rehome from pounds or regulated breeders. AHAR are making the situation WORSE! those fair breeders just go home and breed another batch, they must be delighted to have guaranteed punters at the fairs. If they went to the fair and noone ever bought puppies they'd stop doing it. AHAR are actually enabling these fair breeders.
		
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I'm aware of that, however those animals are there and in some cases will die a horrible death if someone doesn't take them.

Not quite sure that sits well with me to be quite honest with you.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

there has to be some kind of rehoming fee. My one's came with a suggested donation, and its covers exactly the cost of a vet checkup, farrier, worming, passport and microchipping. All the receipt and documents and proof it's been done are made available for this at the time.  It's a bad system if they don't, surely future owners would understand the need to cover the passporting etc?


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## stormox (18 August 2016)

chocolate moonbeam do you live in ROI?? are you a full time watcher of this thread, answering every post?


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## CAYLA (18 August 2016)

As lax as the RSPCA can be over here, this hoarding establishment is lucky it's in Ireland as clearly they have no laws what so ever in place to deal with hoarding on such a big scale but not only that. the deceit and monetary gain as well as cruelty under the guise of rescue. It's beggars belief. Rescues don't fuel cruelty they actively seek to stamp it out. Going to fairs and buying in animals is no different to buying stock from a puppy farmer. And the more ironic part is they go from a fair to another hell altogether when they land at AHAR.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			So if they do all that for the dogs - lets for a moment accept that - why are there no rehoming fees for the horses as you state? Doesn't that imply they do not get any treatment before rehoming?
		
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Not at all.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

stormox said:



			chocolate moonbeam do you live in ROI?? are you a full time watcher of this thread, answering every post?
		
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I've answered every post, are you sure about that?


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Ok, so next time you go to the republic of ireland, make sure you take a bin bag with you to pick up all those little dead animals up as it seems to me this has become a real issue and not just there.

Personally, I would rather a few quid change hands than pick up the abused and broken bodies of animals that never asked to be born.
		
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eh, i AM in the republic or ireland. 

and there'd be less bin bags of dead puppies as you mention, if AHAR weren't giving CASH to the people breeding them! And encouraging them to breeed more.  They are being born BECAUSE people like AHAR are buying them


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

CAYLA said:



			As lax as the RSPCA can be over here, this hoarding establishment is lucky it's in Ireland as clearly they have no laws what so ever in place to deal with hoarding on such a big scale but not only that. the deceit and monetary gain as well as cruelty under the guise of rescue. It's beggars belief. Rescues don't fuel cruelty they actively seek to stamp it out. Going to fairs and buying in animals is no different to buying stock from a puppy farmer. And the more ironic part is they go from a fair to another hell altogether when they land at AHAR.
		
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Have you the evidence to prove your claim here.

If so, lets see it.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

CAYLA said:



			Going to fairs and buying in animals is no different to buying stock from a puppy farmer.
		
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this /\/\/ 100%


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			eh, i AM in the republic or ireland. 

and there'd be less bin bags of dead puppies as you mention, if AHAR weren't giving CASH to the people breeding them! And encouraging them to breeed more.  They are being born BECAUSE people like AHAR are buying them
		
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AHAR are responsible for all the puppy breeders in the whole of the Republic of Ireland?

They are buying thousands of puppies from the breeders each year?

Do you realise how mad you sound?


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## stormox (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I've answered every post, are you sure about that?
		
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well if you want to be childish, so can I. you have made more than 25% of the posts on this thread!!! pretty much answering every post, Id say


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## ester (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Ok, so next time you go to the republic of ireland, make sure you take a bin bag with you to pick up all those little dead animals up as it seems to me this has become a real issue and not just there.

Personally, I would rather a few quid change hands than pick up the abused and broken bodies of animals that never asked to be born.
		
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Surely something will have eaten them by then


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

stormox said:



			well if you want to be childish, so can I. you have made more than 25% of the posts on this thread!!! pretty much answering every post, Id say
		
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Is there something wrong with answering posts directed at me?


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## ester (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			eh, i AM in the republic or ireland. 

and there'd be less bin bags of dead puppies as you mention, if AHAR weren't giving CASH to the people breeding them! And encouraging them to breeed more.  They are being born BECAUSE people like AHAR are buying them
		
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Chocolate moonbeam said:



			AHAR are responsible for all the puppy breeders in the whole of the Republic of Ireland?

They are buying thousands of puppies from the breeders each year?

Do you realise how mad you sound?
		
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err paddi said people like ahar, not just ahar......


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

like i believe in retraining sulky racer rescues to go on to be nice allrounders. doing that you have two options


1, Go to the sulky racer owners who are mistreating the horses and offer to buy the horse you feel so sorry for
PROs: you get the horse 
CONS: you give cash to the owners who then go off and probably buy two more to breed as they have a market now for them
Overall result: situation made worse and more horses kept in probably worse condition

2.Go to an established regulated charity who work with the council to rehome healthy ones that have been impounded. Work and help the council to improve laws to impound them. Petition to change laws so they cant race on roads and help improve their overall quality of life.
PROS you get a horse to help, the owners have the horses impounded due to improving laws, the charity have an extra space free to help another horse,
CONS : none

thats the difference. you still get the same reward of helping a horse, but in the second situation the overall scenario is getting better. in the first one you are actually making the situation worse, despite your good intention


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## ester (18 August 2016)

Its the difference between helping the one, and helping the whole sorry situation really isn't it? A big more bigger picture thinking.


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## Dobiegirl (18 August 2016)

Ahar dont report the abusers though do they, in fact they give AHAR their telephone number just like the meat man does.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

CAYLA said:



			As lax as the RSPCA can be over here, this hoarding establishment is lucky it's in Ireland as clearly they have no laws what so ever in place to deal with hoarding on such a big scale but not only that. the deceit and monetary gain as well as cruelty under the guise of rescue. It's beggars belief. Rescues don't fuel cruelty they actively seek to stamp it out. Going to fairs and buying in animals is no different to buying stock from a puppy farmer. And the more ironic part is they go from a fair to another hell altogether when they land at AHAR.
		
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agree Cayla.However, the legal definition of hoarding is such:

Animal hoarding is keeping a higher-than-usual number of animals as domestic pets without ability to properly house or care for them, while at the same time denying this inability. Compulsive hoarding can be characterized as a symptom of mental disorder rather than deliberate cruelty towards animals. Hoarders are deeply attached to their pets and find it extremely difficult to let the pets go. They typically cannot comprehend that they are harming their pets by failing to provide them with proper care. Hoarders tend to believe that they provide the right amount of care for their pets.
AHAR has no issues letting Animals go. As such, this does not qualify as hoarding. Simply as animal abuse


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

correct. They are repeat buyers of the same' product-the dream of any merchant.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			Its the difference between helping the one, and helping the whole sorry situation really isn't it? A big more bigger picture thinking.
		
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that's it exactly. The charity i get mine from are amazing. they go into the pound and they really have to choose the best ones they think they can rehome. It breaks their heart to leave some, but they have to be realistic and not take out horses who need operations, vet works etc. They believe the money is better spent on helping horses who can easily be passed on and rehomed. They don't just take out 50 at a time and have them all crippled in a field.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			err paddi said people like ahar, not just ahar......
		
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Right, only AHAR seem to be getting most of the blame for all the puppy mill issues here yet which sounds pretty mad if you ask me.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			like i believe in retraining sulky racer rescues to go on to be nice allrounders. doing that you have two options


1, Go to the sulky racer owners who are mistreating the horses and offer to buy the horse you feel so sorry for
PROs: you get the horse 
CONS: you give cash to the owners who then go off and probably buy two more to breed as they have a market now for them
Overall result: situation made worse and more horses kept in probably worse condition

2.Go to an established regulated charity who work with the council to rehome healthy ones that have been impounded. Work and help the council to improve laws to impound them. Petition to change laws so they cant race on roads and help improve their overall quality of life.
PROS you get a horse to help, the owners have the horses impounded due to improving laws, the charity have an extra space free to help another horse,
CONS : none

thats the difference. you still get the same reward of helping a horse, but in the second situation the overall scenario is getting better. in the first one you are actually making the situation worse, despite your good intention
		
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I'll make a suggestion shall I, perhaps you could start a petititon to make it legal for animal rescue centres to impound abused animals, that way the temptation to purchase them to get them away from the abusers will disappear.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Right, only AHAR seem to be getting most of the blame for all the puppy mill issues here yet which sounds pretty mad if you ask me.
		
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Thats just a defensive defection tactic you are using. No-one said ahar are responsible for all puppy farming in ireland. but they are the only charity buying dogs at fairs. thats just a fact. and as a result of their actions puppy farm people go home with a pocket full of money to breed other poor puppys. A charity would do a lot more good spending the money on an education leaflet for facebook telling people why buying at fairs is bad.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			Thats just a defensive defection tactic you are using. No-one said ahar are responsible for all puppy farming in ireland. but they are the only charity buying dogs at fairs. thats just a fact. and as a result of their actions puppy farm people go home with a pocket full of money to breed other poor puppys. A charity would do a lot more good spending the money on an education leaflet for facebook telling people why buying at fairs is bad.
		
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Maybe, but at least the animal is still alive.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I'll make a suggestion shall I, perhaps you could start a petititon to make it legal for animal rescue centres to impound abused animals, that way the temptation to purchase them to get them away from the abusers will disappear.
		
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no. 
&#8226; because the centres aren't regulated enough. anyone could start one up and just take animals to sell on etc.  
&#8226; From the situation at AHAR they aren't on board with vets either if their own animals are in such shocking condition, so they can't be trusted to judge the situation
&#8226; You are also putting rescue centre volunteers in physical danger when they go to impound animals in rough circumstances. 

The ones i work with work through the local council and the system works, there's a proper back up of vets, heavies to take and transport the horses. there's also aan education system to teach the people who genuinely DO want to keep the animals but are clueless. 

You need a complete functional regulated systems. Not a load of animals hoarders going round taking animals at random.


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## ester (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Right, only AHAR seem to be getting most of the blame for all the puppy mill issues here yet which sounds pretty mad if you ask me.
		
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I don't read that, I just read that they are perhaps misguidedly contributing to the problem.



Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Maybe, but at least the animal is still alive.
		
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again, not the bigger picture, if you prefer to look at it from this angle then fine but many won't.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Maybe, but at least the animal is still alive.
		
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what about the two who are bred to replace it. it's a cycle you are perpetuating. it cause more harm than good


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Maybe, but at least the animal is still alive.
		
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you hope.You see, so many dogs,cats and horses get into AHAR and are never heard from again.Questions are blocked. Every reputable rescue I know, once again, knows the status of all the animals in their care, present and past AHAR doesn't. That alone is a red flag.
So,let me make it easy on you and tell you what exactly my issues are with Ahar:

1) non transparency on the state of animals in their care
2) non transparency of the number of animals in their care
3) non transparency on the donated funds and how they are spent
4) Buying animals instead of seizing them with the help of the gardai
5) By doing so, encouraging the cycle of supply and demand

Thats just the main 5 points.I'm sure I can come up with more details


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			no. 
&#8226; because the centres aren't regulated enough. anyone could start one up and just take animals to sell on etc.  
&#8226; From the situation at AHAR they aren't on board with vets either if their own animals are in such shocking condition, so they can't be trusted to judge the situation
&#8226; You are also putting rescue centre volunteers in physical danger when they go to impound animals in rough circumstances. 

The ones i work with work through the local council and the system works, there's a proper back up of vets, heavies to take and transport the horses. there's also aan education system to teach the people who genuinely DO want to keep the animals but are clueless. 

You need a complete functional regulated systems. Not a load of animals hoarders going round taking animals at random.
		
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Well in that case, I guess we as a society will just have to suck up the images of 15 stone men racing yearlings up and down the road, equines with massively overgrown hooves and skeletal bodies walking down the highstreet, greyhounds found beaten to death in graveyards and horses being dragged out of canals by a bulldozer.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

ehh you have to be joking. the last place i saw a horse with 'massively overgrown hooves; as you say was that horse thats in AHAR's 'care'!!


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## ester (18 August 2016)

and no one suggested ignoring it, just that all rescues having the juristiction to go round impounding animals is not the best way to deal with it.


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## Regandal (18 August 2016)

Genuine question - is animal welfare, in particular horse welfare, really that bad in the Republic?  Dear God.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Well in that case, I guess we as a society will just have to suck up the images of 15 stone men racing yearlings up and down the road, equines with massively overgrown hooves and skeletal bodies walking down the highstreet, greyhounds found beaten to death in graveyards and horses being dragged out of canals by a bulldozer.
		
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We don't. We need to come up with a logical system that doesn't reward the people who are causing the issues in the first place. We need a regulated charity system that ensures horses get correct care. We need to petition governments to change welfare laws. There's a ton of things we can do to improve the situation. Giving money to a puppy farmer isn't one of them


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Regandal said:



			Genuine question - is animal welfare, in particular horse welfare, really that bad in the Republic?  Dear God.
		
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honestly, its no worse than england. same situations, same sections of society.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Regandal said:



			Genuine question - is animal welfare, in particular horse welfare, really that bad in the Republic?  Dear God.
		
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It is not actually.The law is quite ok. But it isn't enforced in many counties. Thats the problem.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			ehh you have to be joking. the last place i saw a horse with 'massively overgrown hooves; as you say was that horse thats in AHAR's 'care'!!
		
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Slight exaggeration there when you consider this.


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## ester (18 August 2016)

She said the last place.... not the worst case.... there are plenty of worse cases but that doesn't make hero ok, and many of them would not have got worse in rescue.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			We don't. We need to come up with a logical system that doesn't reward the people who are causing the issues in the first place. We need a regulated charity system that ensures horses get correct care. We need to petition governments to change welfare laws. There's a ton of things we can do to improve the situation. Giving money to a puppy farmer isn't one of them
		
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In the mean time though what do you suggest?


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

if you read my sentence i said the LAST place i'd been horrified by was AHAR horses. I am horrified by all untreated hoof issues. what upset me more about AHARS one was that it was a charity causing the horse pain by neglect.

we all know horse welfare is bad, but good attempt to deflect away from the issue by posting a horrific issue. I'm sure ahar can post a similar pic in a few years if they continue their current farrier routine


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			In the mean time though what do you suggest?
		
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i've made about 5 suggestions above


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			She said the last place.... not the worst case.... there are plenty of worse cases but that doesn't make hero ok, and many of them would not have got worse in rescue.
		
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My point was massively overgrown hooves.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			i've made about 5 suggestions above
		
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Suggestions, but as yet no solution.

Until the solution arrives, what do you suggest is done?


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## Blurr (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Suggestions, but as yet no solution.

Until the solution arrives, what do you suggest is done?
		
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By your own admission, the suggestions have been made.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			In the mean time though what do you suggest?
		
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report them. use Myshall as an example maybe??


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

there is no magic solution. We don't live in a movie. The best anyone can do is chip away to improve things that DO make massive differences; improving legislation, giving councils more power to impound, starting education programs in rough areas, educating sectors where abuse happens, setting up watchdogs to stop abuse, funding regulated charities with proper rehoming facilities, fighting for harder penalties for abuse. 

all those would cause more of a change then giving cash to a puppy farming and thengetting an ego buzz from feeling like a saviour cause you've saved one puppy and created a situation where two more will replace it


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## Mince Pie (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			My point was massively overgrown hooves.
		
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So it's ok for AHAR to do it because there are worse cases elsewhere?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Blurr said:



			By your own admission, the suggestions have been made.
		
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And how does that help the animals in the here and now?


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## ester (18 August 2016)

Mince Pie said:



			So it's ok for AHAR to do it because there are worse cases elsewhere?
		
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apparently so, even though those are to be rescued, not having been rescued. . . 
Of course everything is always relative, but comparing to a likely laminitic which puts a whole different slant (boom boom) on hoof growth seems pretty pointless to me.


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## ester (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			And how does that help the animals in the here and now?
		
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Again, perspective, yours seems to be different to others.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			Again, perspective, yours seems to be different to others.
		
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Different strokes and all that.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

I make no apologies for preferring to see animals in happy homes than at the bottom of a river somewhere.

Sorry if that offends you but it's just the way I am.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Different strokes and all that.
		
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this is getting exhausting. 
Lets just agree: Can't-teach-pork (no offence to any pig, they are actually highly intelligent)


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I make no apologies for preferring to see animals in happy homes than at the bottom of a river somewhere.

Sorry if that offends you but it's just the way I am.
		
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oh dear g***


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## Mince Pie (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I make no apologies for preferring to see animals in happy homes than at the bottom of a river somewhere.

Sorry if that offends you but it's just the way I am.
		
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May I ask how old you are? You do come across as very naive, looking at the short term picture, rather than the long term.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I make no apologies for preferring to see animals in happy homes than at the bottom of a river somewhere.

Sorry if that offends you but it's just the way I am.
		
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grand, if you're someone who considers a 'happy home' to be a horse hobbling in agony because it's not getting adequate care, then i don't think we will ever be on the same page. I sleep at night knowing all my horses have correct care and that i haven't given money to puppy farmers.  But if you are happy to live in a bubble where you feeling like you are a saint for saving one puppy but causing two more to take it's place then fine. best of luck with that


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## ester (18 August 2016)

I think my main point is that just because people don't agree with the practices of this rescue, how it functions etc doesn't mean they are against any sort of rescue and rehab. 

But personally I don't have much issue with dead animals, in a river or otherwise, dead animals don't hurt. It is the ones actively suffering that I worry about and when rescues seem to not be doing their job to prevent that happening to the animals already in their care it doesn't seem like there is much hope for the rest.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			grand, if you're someone who considers a 'happy home' to be a horse hobbling in agony because it's not getting adequate care, then i don't think we will ever be on the same page. I sleep at night knowing all my horses have correct care and that i haven't given money to puppy farmers.  But if you are happy to live in a bubble where you feeling like you are a saint for saving one puppy but causing two more to take it's place then fine. best of luck with that
		
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+1 here.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			I think my main point is that just because people don't agree with the practices of this rescue, how it functions etc doesn't mean they are against any sort of rescue and rehab. 

But personally I don't have much issue with dead animals, in a river or otherwise, dead animals don't hurt. It is the ones actively suffering that I worry about and when rescues seem to not be doing their job to prevent that happening to the animals already in their care it doesn't seem like there is much hope for the rest.
		
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the latter part might not be worded too well. I do have an issue with dead animals in a river.because I know they have suffered beforehand.it makes me want to put their 'owner' there instead


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Mince Pie said:



			May I ask how old you are? You do come across as very naive, looking at the short term picture, rather than the long term.
		
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No, I would love nothing more than to see puppy farmers gone, no more abused and neglected equines, animals neutered appropriately, the need for animal rescue centres to be gone but I can't see that happening for a long, long time.

It's all well and good looking at the long term, but it's the animals in the here and now who need help too.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			No, I would love nothing more than to see puppy farmers gone, no more abused and neglected equines, animals neutered appropriately, the need for animal rescue centres to be gone but I can't see that happening for a long, long time.

It's all well and good looking at the long term, but it's the animals in the here and now who need help too.
		
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with this I think we can all agree. It is just the way of helping ahar provides that is totally and utterly backwards


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## ester (18 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			the latter part might not be worded too well. I do have an issue with dead animals in a river.because I know they have suffered beforehand.it makes me want to put their 'owner' there instead
		
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Yes I do mean once they are dead, apart from the contamination issues obviously , but I don't worry about them once they are dead, I don't expect everyone else to think the same on that though and I have simplified it a bit. 

Of course the other part of that post was 'seeing animals in happy homes' which again we don't know if that is the case if they go through AHAR because AHAR don't ever seem to know themselves.

The question is also what funds are best spent on, saving those in the short term in the way that AHAR does does nothing to shorten the time to get to the situation we would all like to see of no puppy farmers etc.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			with this I think we can all agree. It is just the way of helping ahar provides that is totally and utterly backwards
		
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At least they are doing something.

Are they perfect, no, I doubt even the largest animal rescue operations are perfect, but doing something is a whole lot better than doing nothing at all.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			Yes I do mean once they are dead, apart from the contamination issues obviously , but I don't worry about them once they are dead, I don't expect everyone else to think the same on that though and I have simplified it a bit. 

Of course the other part of that post was 'seeing animals in happy homes' which again we don't know if that is the case if they go through AHAR because AHAR don't ever seem to know themselves.
		
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So all the photos they put up of animals in new homes are all a load of made up bull then?


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			Yes I do mean once they are dead, apart from the contamination issues obviously , but I don't worry about them once they are dead, I don't expect everyone else to think the same on that though and I have simplified it a bit. 

Of course the other part of that post was 'seeing animals in happy homes' which again we don't know if that is the case if they go through AHAR because AHAR don't ever seem to know themselves.

The question is also what funds are best spent on, saving those in the short term in the way that AHAR does does nothing to shorten the time to get to the situation we would all like to see of no puppy farmers etc.
		
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Lol. agreed than.


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## ester (18 August 2016)

I thought we had already established they don't know where they all are? Or has a list now been generated? Of course I am sure some end up in nice homes, I suspect some end up in some not so nice homes too or get passed on but AHAR wouldn't know about them.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			So all the photos they put up of animals in new homes are all a load of made up bull then?
		
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ever heard of the top of the iceberg? Thats what those animals are.I'm deeply concerned about any under the visible line


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## ester (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			At least they are doing something.

Are they perfect, no, I doubt even the largest animal rescue operations are perfect, but *doing something is a whole lot better than doing nothing at all.*

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doing something? Like actually trimming Hero's hooves regularly to go back to the point of this thread?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			I thought we had already established they don't know where they all are? Or has a list now been generated? Of course I am sure some end up in nice homes, I suspect some end up in some not so nice homes too or get passed on but AHAR wouldn't know about them.
		
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Who said they don't know where they all are.  Knowing where they all went to is not the same as being on the phone to the new homes every 5 minutes asking about the animals and passing the information onto previous owners.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			ever heard of the top of the iceberg? Thats what those animals are.I'm deeply concerned about any under the visible line
		
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Please tell me, what laws are there in place that state animal rescue centres must put up photographs of every single animal they've ever had come in, gone out and in their new homes.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Who said they don't know where they all are.  Knowing where they all went to is not the same as being on the phone to the new homes every 5 minutes asking about the animals and passing the information onto previous owners.
		
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well, given the fact that they haven't told us, and given the fact that they actually put the same husky up for adoption 3 month apart with a different name is quite ehmm..revealing wouldn't you think? They have no clu


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Double post.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Who said they don't know where they all are.  Knowing where they all went to is not the same as being on the phone to the new homes every 5 minutes asking about the animals and passing the information onto previous owners.
		
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waaaiiit a second. a few posts back you said how on earth was a charity to keep track of them? at least be consistent in your madness!


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			waaaiiit a second. a few posts back you said how on earth was a charity to keep track of them? at least be consistent in your madness!
		
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+1 again


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			waaaiiit a second. a few posts back you said how on earth was a charity to keep track of them? at least be consistent in your madness!
		
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People move, change phone numbers etc.  Things out of a charities control.  When a centre has rehomed thousands of animals such as Battersea and the RSPCA do every year please tell me how they are going to keep track of them?

I rehomed a puppy from the RSPCA, they never once called, sent any correspondence relating to him from the day we took him home to the day he died.


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## Blurr (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			And how does that help the animals in the here and now?
		
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paddi22's suggestions are good.  One thing is for sure, paying for animals to rescue them will not work.  It perpetuates the problem by creating a market.  The BHS wrote a very good article on this a while ago.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			People move, change phone numbers etc.  Things out of a charities control.  When a centre has rehomed thousands of animals such as Battersea and the RSPCA do every year please tell me how they are going to keep track of them?

I rehomed a puppy from the RSPCA, they never once called, sent any correspondence relating to him from the day we took him home to the day he died.
		
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weren't you going to ask them directly? what did they say?


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

they have no system for keeping track of the animals. ON THEIR OWN rehoming page they have a rehomer who thought she was getting a mare and then ended up with a gelding. How does that happen? It happens when noone has a clue what is going on or how to run a place properly. They obviously didn't discuss the horse with her, or discuss what she was expecting. How are you told to expect a mare and then a gelding shows up. And this is ON THEIR OWN SUPPORTERS page


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Blurr said:



			paddi22's suggestions are good.  One thing is for sure, paying for animals to rescue them will not work.  It perpetuates the problem by creating a market.  The BHS wrote a very good article on this a while ago.
		
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I never said they weren't good, but they don't help the animals in need right now.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Please tell me, what laws are there in place that state animal rescue centres must put up photographs of every single animal they've ever had come in, gone out and in their new homes.
		
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it's not a law. its best pratice.
The irish horse rehoming project, for an example, takes pics of every single horse, and owners are obliged to set up a folder of pics of the rehomed facebook page an update regularly.  If a folder hasn't been updated the people ould get a gentle nudge from the manager of the charity to just check everything was ok


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. 
&#8213; Martin Luther King Jr.
and, even more apt:

There are people who are generic. They make generic responses and they expect generic answers. They live inside a box and they think people who don't fit into their box are weird. But I'll tell you what, generic people are the weird people. They are like genetically-manipulated plants growing inside a laboratory, like indistinguishable faces, like droids. Like ignorance. 
&#8213; C. JoyBell C.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			it's not a law. its best pratice.
The irish horse rehoming project, for an example, takes pics of every single horse, and owners are obliged to set up a folder of pics of the rehomed facebook page an update regularly.  If a folder hasn't been updated the people ould get a gentle nudge from the manager of the charity to just check everything was ok
		
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Since when was it law that a charity has to have a facebook page.

How on earth did they manage before the advent of computers and facebook?


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## ester (18 August 2016)

they got letters?
Did you not read where paddi said it's not law it's best practice. You do seem to miss some rather key points on people's posts!


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Since when was it law that a charity has to have a facebook page.

How on earth did they manage before the advent of computers and facebook?
		
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You are obsessed with the law!

It is best practise for a charity to be showing EXACTLY the work they are doing and where the money is going.   Why wouldn't you. It encourages people to see improvements. It's nice to see the animals helped. There is an onus on the charity to show where the money is going. If they are happy plastering the page with desperate cases to raise funds, then they should equally plaster the site with pics of the horses in the 'after' state. only AHAr Can't. because there are cases where the animals are worse. Do you think ANYONE who gave cash to help hero would be happy with theose pics? Thats why they dont put them up


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

proudly trained by AHAR lol.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			they got letters?
Did you not read where paddi said it's not law it's best practice. You do seem to miss some rather key points on people's posts!
		
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No, I saw it but as far as I know there is no policy booklet suggesting best practice methods, therefore it is your opinion that it is best practice.

Question is, what would you do if there was no AHAR facebook page


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Question is, what would you do if there was no AHAR facebook page 

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i'd sleep a lot easier at night cause i'd know an animal hoarder wasn't using it as propaganda to raise money from well meaning people while at the same time perpetuating animal cruelty


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			No, I saw it but as far as I know there is no policy booklet suggesting best practice methods, therefore it is your opinion that it is best practice.

Question is, what would you do if there was no AHAR facebook page 

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no facebook, no donations, no ahar. simples.


Freedom from Hunger and Thirst - by ready access to fresh water and a diet to maintain full health and vigour.-failed by ahar
Freedom from Discomfort - by providing an appropriate environment including shelter and a comfortable resting area.-failed by ahar
Freedom from Pain, Injury or Disease - by prevention or rapid diagnosis and treatment.-fialed by ahar
Freedom to Express Normal Behaviour - by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal's own kind. failed by ahar
Freedom from Fear and Distress - by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering.failed by ahar.

I rest my case.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			You are obsessed with the law!

It is best practise for a charity to be showing EXACTLY the work they are doing and where the money is going.   Why wouldn't you. It encourages people to see improvements. It's nice to see the animals helped. There is an onus on the charity to show where the money is going. If they are happy plastering the page with desperate cases to raise funds, then they should equally plaster the site with pics of the horses in the 'after' state. only AHAr Can't. because there are cases where the animals are worse. Do you think ANYONE who gave cash to help hero would be happy with theose pics? Thats why they dont put them up
		
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The law is relevant here.  You are expecting this charity to work as you want it to rather than how it is prescribed in law.

If the place isn't breaking the law with anything they do then the complaints about it are hollow.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			The law is relevant here.  You are expecting this charity to work as you want it to rather than how it is prescribed in law.

If the place isn't breaking the law with anything they do then the complaints about it are hollow.
		
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ok I'm getting really annoyed with your ongoing ignorance.The 5 freedoms as outline above state and are incoporated into the Animal welfare act in Ireland as per law:
Clear responsibilities on owners of animals to provide for the 5 freedoms - Freedom
from hunger and thirst,- ehm? see starving horse in video        
discomfort,- knuckle walk of hero,no farrier care
pain, injury and disease, - hero
to exhibit natural behaviour,- how can natural behaviour be exhibited in her tormented state
from fear and distress - caused by pain

You are an ignorant, sorely misguided by an animal abuser faking as a rescuer. I can only hope that one day you will find out what you are defending and you will be as horrified as the people who have actually looked further than skin deep.


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## puppyalert (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			they have no system for keeping track of the animals. ON THEIR OWN rehoming page they have a rehomer who thought she was getting a mare and then ended up with a gelding. How does that happen? It happens when noone has a clue what is going on or how to run a place properly. They obviously didn't discuss the horse with her, or discuss what she was expecting. How are you told to expect a mare and then a gelding shows up. And this is ON THEIR OWN SUPPORTERS page
		
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In response to a veterinary inspection report and in reply to the following question. 'Are there detailed records on re-homing and fostering maintained and available'?  AHARs reply as written by the inspecting officer was ' Yes. Records kept on equine and canine re-homing and fostering (if used)'.

Another question asked was 'are there detailed records maintained on all animals (including horses and farmed animals) rescued, re-homed and euthanized'?  AHARS reply was, 'Yes records kept for all animals, rescued re-homed and euthanized'.

Another questioned asked was 'are horses currently rehomed to another EU Member State (including the UK) and in  accordance with relevant requirements for the export of equidae'?   AHAR response was NO.  Dated 3rd Nov 2015.  

Even from this small part of an inspection report it is clear that AHAR is not giving accurate replies to questions asked.


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## stormox (18 August 2016)

At least with all the rubbish you are spouting, chocolate moonbeam, you are keeping this thread at the top  so more people read it and learn about AHAR...


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			ok I'm getting really annoyed with your ongoing ignorance.The 5 freedoms as outline above state and are incoporated into the Animal welfare act in Ireland as per law:
Clear responsibilities on owners of animals to provide for the 5 freedoms - Freedom
from hunger and thirst,- ehm? see starving horse in video        
discomfort,- knuckle walk of hero,no farrier care
pain, injury and disease, - hero
to exhibit natural behaviour,- how can natural behaviour be exhibited in her tormented state
from fear and distress - caused by pain

You are an ignorant, sorely misguided by an animal abuser faking as a rescuer. I can only hope that one day you will find out what you are defending and you will be as horrified as the people who have actually looked further than skin deep.
		
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Then if this is the case, as the letter from the DOA said the investigation is ongoing.  Allow them to do their job.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

puppyalert said:



			In response to a veterinary inspection report and in reply to the following question. 'Are there detailed records on re-homing and fostering maintained and available'?  AHARs reply as written by the inspecting officer was ' Yes. Records kept on equine and canine re-homing and fostering (if used)'.

Another question asked was 'are there detailed records maintained on all animals (including horses and farmed animals) rescued, re-homed and euthanized'?  AHARS reply was, 'Yes records kept for all animals, rescued re-homed and euthanized'.

Another questioned asked was 'are horses currently rehomed to another EU Member State (including the UK) and in  accordance with relevant requirements for the export of equidae'?   AHAR response was NO.  Dated 3rd Nov 2015.  

Even from this small part of an inspection report it is clear that AHAR is not giving accurate replies to questions asked.
		
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Do you have a link to this inspection report?


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## SatansLittleHelper (18 August 2016)

Have just read this whole thread...I'm dumbstruck by the sheer ignorance shown in Chocolate Whatnot's posts. 
I sometimes feel that social media could be one of the worst things to happen to animal welfare...it's too easy to spin a sob story and get gullible, albeit well meaning, people to donate.
Used correctly social media can be brilliant and has really helped alot of proper charities but there are so very many people using it to make a buck 
AHAR could have help their hands up and said they were struggling, can't cope etc and genuine people would help but instead they've chosen to lie and leave animals suffering.
As for purchasing animals in the name of rescue...how on earth does that help?! I'd much sooner that these "breeders" couldn't offload their crap and thought twice about producing more than laughing all the way to the bank because of such misguided naivety. 
There are far worse endings for horses than a bullet with the meat man...not to mention the fact that you have to consider why they are with him in the first place.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Have just read this whole thread...I'm dumbstruck by the sheer ignorance shown in Chocolate Whatnot's posts. 
I sometimes feel that social media could be one of the worst things to happen to animal welfare...it's too easy to spin a sob story and get gullible, albeit well meaning, people to donate.
Used correctly social media can be brilliant and has really helped alot of proper charities but there are so very many people using it to make a buck 
AHAR could have help their hands up and said they were struggling, can't cope etc and genuine people would help but instead they've chosen to lie and leave animals suffering.
As for purchasing animals in the name of rescue...how on earth does that help?! I'd much sooner that these "breeders" couldn't offload their crap and thought twice about producing more than laughing all the way to the bank because of such misguided naivety. 
There are far worse endings for horses than a bullet with the meat man...not to mention the fact that you have to consider why they are with him in the first place.
		
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I totally and utterly agree.Unfortunately it is exactly this kind of ignorance that allows Ahar and their manager to make a small fortune.On the back of the suffering of thousands of animals.The mind baffles at the sheer size of it.Nothing any half intelligent person says to most ahar supporters will change their mind.There are just too many sheep in this world, eager to follow the one who shouts loudest.It has been this way since the beginning of mankind and it applies to all walks of life and all employment groups.


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## stormox (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam, as you seem to know a lot about AHAR please could you tell me why in the post requesting money to save animals at Knocknagoshel fair last week they have used a picture of Castleisland Fair? (It was baking hot here last week- the people in the picture have coats on, because Castleisland fair is in November!!)
Just another one of their innaccurate photos.....


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Have just read this whole thread...I'm dumbstruck by the sheer ignorance shown in Chocolate Whatnot's posts. 
I sometimes feel that social media could be one of the worst things to happen to animal welfare...it's too easy to spin a sob story and get gullible, albeit well meaning, people to donate.
Used correctly social media can be brilliant and has really helped alot of proper charities but there are so very many people using it to make a buck 
AHAR could have help their hands up and said they were struggling, can't cope etc and genuine people would help but instead they've chosen to lie and leave animals suffering.
As for purchasing animals in the name of rescue...how on earth does that help?! I'd much sooner that these "breeders" couldn't offload their crap and thought twice about producing more than laughing all the way to the bank because of such misguided naivety. 
There are far worse endings for horses than a bullet with the meat man...not to mention the fact that you have to consider why they are with him in the first place.
		
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It's also too easy for a group of people to get together to form an anti club, spin any rubbish they like about said charity and get people to fall onto the bandwagon.

So many animal rescue centres worldwide have these anti groups that follow their every move, criticise, complain, accuse etc.  

A quick look on google throws up numerous hits about them, so AHAR are not unique in this.


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## ester (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			If the place isn't breaking the law with anything they do then the complaints about it are hollow.
		
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Right, you have pretty low expectations of charities funded by the public then really. 
Although I think whether they have stayed within the law in Hero's case at least is very questionable, but if it is anything like the UK prosecutions of such type rarely happen against the people they ought to so lack of charges etc means nothing either.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			I totally and utterly agree.Unfortunately it is exactly this kind of ignorance that allows Ahar and their manager to make a small fortune.On the back of the suffering of thousands of animals.The mind baffles at the sheer size of it.Nothing any half intelligent person says to most ahar supporters will change their mind.There are just too many sheep in this world, eager to follow the one who shouts loudest.It has been this way since the beginning of mankind and it applies to all walks of life and all employment groups.
		
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You see, this is one such claim with nothing to back it up.

Can you prove she is making a small fortune?


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## ester (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			It's also too easy for a group of people to get together to form an anti club, spin any rubbish they like about said charity and get people to fall onto the bandwagon.

So many animal rescue centres worldwide have these anti groups that follow their every move, criticise, complain, accuse etc.  

A quick look on google throws up numerous hits about them, so AHAR are not unique in this.
		
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I pay very little attention to the anti club because it wouldn't be the first time such things have happened and been incorrect. I pay attention to the evidence in front of me, like Hero's feet and all the posts on the AHAR facebook- including the very obvious lies/misinformation in spite of the evidence. They give me plenty of information on their own without having to go to the other page.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

stormox said:



			Chocolate moonbeam, as you seem to know a lot about AHAR please could you tell me why in the post requesting money to save animals at Knocknagoshel fair last week they have used a picture of Castleisland Fair? (It was baking hot here last week- the people in the picture have coats on, because Castleisland fair is in November!!)
Just another one of their innaccurate photos.....
		
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Oh for goodness sake, it's a generic photo of a fair, does it have to be a photo of the exact fair taken that very day.

Is that really so important to you?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			Right, you have pretty low expectations of charities funded by the public then really. 
Although I think whether they have stayed within the law in Hero's case at least is very questionable, but if it is anything like the UK prosecutions of such type rarely happen against the people they ought to so lack of charges etc means nothing either.
		
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No I don't.  I do however expect people who accuse a wrongdoing, especially one that is suggesting a law has been broken to provide absolute proof of their claims.

If they can't do that, then what does that tell you about the accusation made?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			Right, you have pretty low expectations of charities funded by the public then really. 
Although I think whether they have stayed within the law in Hero's case at least is very questionable, but if it is anything like the UK prosecutions of such type rarely happen against the people they ought to so lack of charges etc means nothing either.
		
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Whether they have stayed within the law is up to the authorities to determine.  They are the ones who will have access to the information regarding this and any other animals care at the centre or any centre anti groups complain about.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			You see, this is one such claim with nothing to back it up.

Can you prove she is making a small fortune?
		
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want me to go and dig for the bank statements?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			want me to go and dig for the bank statements?
		
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Perhaps you would like to provide the receipts for feed bills, vets bills, utility bills etc whilst you are at it.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Looks like they are mostly paid by card-they can be seen clearing off the statement..


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Oh for goodness sake, it's a generic photo of a fair, does it have to be a photo of the exact fair taken that very day.

Is that really so important to you?
		
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but it IS important. you are insinuating animal abuse takes place at one place and then have a photo of a completely different place. If i was the organisers of the other fair i'd be LIVID if photos of my fair were used. i wonder if they know?


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

Now, i've really had enough of entertaining your ignorance.Anyone wanting to see statements (I have found 2 pages) pm me here.. Mooonbeam..go entertain yourself as far as I'm concerned. Believe what you want, I believe you're simply too stupid to see the truth.


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## ester (18 August 2016)

The authorities usually aren't that bothered about chasing up animal welfare issues, especially when funding is so tight, so I think it would be foolish to rely on their judgement on these sorts of incidences. Particularly when as far as they are concerned AHAR is at least making some of their immediate problems go away. 

I find the fb stuff a bit scary tbh, at how people make it work for them with regards to this sort of thing and how many people will happily follow along. As said previously very few if any charities are perfect but I expect to be able to ask questions of any before I send money to them and all those I support have had rational, reasonable answers to those queries about why they do things a certain way and have certainly not just deleted and banned. I wonder was it like that in the earlier days?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			Looks like they are mostly paid by card-they can be seen clearing off the statement..

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Well yeah, many people pay stuff by card nowadays.  What of it?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			Now, i've really had enough of entertaining your ignorance.Anyone wanting to see statements (I have found 2 pages) pm me here.. Mooonbeam..go entertain yourself as far as I'm concerned. Believe what you want, I believe you're simply too stupid to see the truth.
		
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Good bye then.  No one is forcing you to read or reply to me.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			The authorities usually aren't that bothered about chasing up animal welfare issues, especially when funding is so tight, so I think it would be foolish to rely on their judgement on these sorts of incidences. Particularly when as far as they are concerned AHAR is at least making some of their immediate problems go away. 

I find the fb stuff a bit scary tbh, at how people make it work for them with regards to this sort of thing and how many people will happily follow along. As said previously very few if any charities are perfect but I expect to be able to ask questions of any before I send money to them and all those I support have had rational, reasonable answers to those queries about why they do things a certain way and have certainly not just deleted and banned. I wonder was it like that in the earlier days?
		
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Maybe not, but it is how it is at the moment.

Regarding the second part of your post, that is up to you.  No one is forcing you to follow them, donate to them, even read their page.  

Good thing about being an autonomous individual, you can decide for yourself what's right for you.


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## ester (18 August 2016)

It also means I can reply to posts like this being aghast at what is deemed as rehabilitation and find it a bit bonkers that others can't seem to see it and are so easily placated.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			but it IS important. you are insinuating animal abuse takes place at one place and then have a photo of a completely different place. If i was the organisers of the other fair i'd be LIVID if photos of my fair were used. i wonder if they know?
		
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Depends where the photo came from and if it's fair use or not.  If it's copywrite you have a point, if not then what are you complaining about.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			It also means I can reply to posts like this being aghast at what is deemed as rehabilitation and find it a bit bonkers that others can't seem to see it and are so easily placated.
		
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Precisely and I can reply as I see fit too.  Everyone's happy then


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## puppyalert (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Do you have a link to this inspection report?
		
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No sorry not available on line.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Depends where the photo came from and if it's fair use or not.  If it's copywrite you have a point, if not then what are you complaining about.
		
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i'm complaining because if someone said child abuse was happening at a house on street a, and then they showed a photo of my house, i'd be annoyed, wouldnt you.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

puppyalert said:



			No sorry not available on line.
		
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Somehow I'm not surprised.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			i'm complaining because if someone said child abuse was happening at a house on street a, and then they showed a photo of my house, i'd be annoyed, wouldnt you.
		
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Then instead of complaining on the internet about it, contact the fair organisers and tell them.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Then instead of complaining on the internet about it, contact the fair organisers and tell them.
		
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That wasn't the point. How do you manage to read letters with your eyes and completely miss what the point was.


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## Mollylittle (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			That wasn't the point. How do you manage to read letters with your eyes and completely miss what the point was.
		
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I think I answered that already..it's called ignorance...


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			That wasn't the point. How do you manage to read letters with your eyes and completely miss what the point was.
		
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Have you contacted them?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			I think I answered that already..it's called ignorance...
		
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Oh hello again.  Bored are you?


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## stormox (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Oh for goodness sake, it's a generic photo of a fair, does it have to be a photo of the exact fair taken that very day.
		
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Well, actually I would expect a picture published with an article to be pertinent to that article. But I suppose horses, fairs, dogs ducks....what does it ,matter if they arent connected to the associated prose as long as they keep people sending in the donations....


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

stormox said:



			Well, actually I would expect a picture published with an article to be pertinent to that article. But I suppose horses, fairs, dogs ducks....what does it ,matter if they arent connected to the associated prose as long as they keep people sending in the donations....
		
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Well it would have been really.

In a post about a fair there was a photo depicting a fair.


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## stormox (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Well it would have been really.

In a post about a fair there was a photo depicting a fair.
		
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So in a posted  article about a particular horse you (and AHAR) think it would be ok to put a picture up of another horse?????


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

stormox said:



			So in a posted  article about a particular horse it would be ok to put a picture up of another horse?????
		
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This is really a stupid argument.  It was a photo from an Irish fair about an Irish fair that can be found very easily and simply on google images.

It's hardly the crime of the century.


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

exactly... if there was a poster of a child abuser and we put a pic up of you, youd say fine, well its a pic of a woman"


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

.< this is the point













                                                                                                     >this is where chocolate moonbeam is>______


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## paddi22 (18 August 2016)

i'l look forward to when the horse and hound ad sections just has random photos pulled off goolgle images, because 'sure, they're all horses anyway"


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## Chocolate moonbeam (18 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			.< this is the point













                                                                                                     >this is where chocolate moonbeam is>______
		
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Like I said, if you have a problem with the photo then contact the fair organisers and complain to them.


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## ester (18 August 2016)

It isn't the fair organisers who need complaining too is it?
How would that complaint go exactly? Dear fair organisers I am really cross you allowed a picture of your fair to be used on the internet?

You seemed to have missed the point of forums, suggesting people go round randomly contacting people directly rather than have a discussion here.. Most are quiet happy discussing here with the information already given as I said, plenty on the AHAR page to draw conclusions, no need to go anywhere else. But then given that you manage to misread about every other post maybe I shouldn't be surprised that you don't quite get what a forum is supposed to do.


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## puppyalert (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Somehow I'm not surprised.
		
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Then what was the point in asking?  Do you think I am making it up?


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## ester (18 August 2016)

I am also surprised given their regular attendance and the fact they were there the day before that AHAR didn't have any more suitable fair pics.


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## ester (18 August 2016)

and guess what, it is a copywrited image, cropped. So not only of completely the wrong place, at a random time, .... but they do everything within the law and I am sure are paying the owner for it. . . . 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/129329252@N04/16307609028


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## Leo Walker (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Who said they don't know where they all are.  Knowing where they all went to is not the same as being on the phone to the new homes every 5 minutes asking about the animals and passing the information onto previous owners.
		
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They categorically do NOT know where the horses given to my friend are.


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## Leo Walker (18 August 2016)

Oh and she thought she was getting a mare, turned out one of them was a gelding as well, so it clearly happens on a regular basis


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## stormox (18 August 2016)

ester said:



			I am also surprised given their regular attendance and the fact they were there the day before that AHAR didn't have any more suitable fair pics.
		
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They were definately  at Puck the day before, buying. Im not sure they went to knocknagoshel though, it isnt as big as Puck so there probably wouldnt have been much there until the actual day, and Kenmare was the day before and they had a buying spree there. All in all I bet they bought about 50 animals at those 3 fairs....


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## ester (18 August 2016)

stormox said:



			They were definately  at Puck the day before, buying. Im not sure they went to knocknagoshel though, it isnt as big as Puck so there probably wouldnt have been much there until the actual day, and Kenmare was the day before and they had a buying spree there. All in all I bet they bought about 50 animals at those 3 fairs....
		
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 oh I did mean they had been to puck the day before. Essentially plenty of opportunity to take their own fair photos....


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## Regandal (18 August 2016)

Sorry if it's been mentioned,  but these fairs are obviously a regular event. Why do the police and welfare bods not target them?
And everybody and their dog has a mobile phone these days,  why not film them and their vehicles?


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## stormox (18 August 2016)

Regandal said:



			Sorry if it's been mentioned,  but these fairs are obviously a regular event. Why do the police and welfare bods not target them?
		
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In England there is Stow, Appleby, Barnet, Watton etc, which are the  same kind of thing as Puck, Ballinasloe etc in Ireland. Its a very small minority of people who actually abuse, or are cruel to animals at these fairs, usually the same people that have coloured cobs and breed them indiscriminately, tethering them on ragwort infested fields and along embankments. They do have gards there but they seem to be frightened of these kind of people and dont like to do anything for fear of  backlash. Its like that in UK too, a friend of mine had some valuable gun dogs stolen, the police knew where they were (traveller site) but wouldnt do anything. In the end she made them too hot to handle by plasteriing them all over FB and they were dumped, and she got them back.


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## Mince Pie (18 August 2016)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Depends where the photo came from and if it's fair use or not.  If it's copywrite you have a point, if not then what are you complaining about.
		
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But it's not fair use! If you take a photo of a well run fair, and use it to raise money for a different fair which isn't well run then you are insinuating that the original fair allows abuse to take place. That sort of thing on the mainland is called Defamation of Character, or libel and is actually illegal!


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## Equi (18 August 2016)

Does chocolate moonbeam not have a charity to run? Id have thought donations would be better being used on the animals rather than internet data.


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## ester (18 August 2016)

Mince Pie said:



			But it's not fair use! If you take a photo of a well run fair, and use it to raise money for a different fair which isn't well run then you are insinuating that the original fair allows abuse to take place. That sort of thing on the mainland is called Defamation of Character, or libel and is actually illegal!
		
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and as I showed, it is copywrite, so you did have a point


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## ycbm (18 August 2016)

Chocolate Moonbeam, can you please explain how it can ever be in the interests of horses welfare for a horse rescue charity to pay money for the horses they claim to rescue?


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## Ddraig_wen (19 August 2016)

After reading through the whole thread  and almost losing the will to live with certain confectionary related posters I thought I'd throw my two penneth in. 

One of our liveries enquired about rehoming a named equine from the charity in question. The response he got was we can drop one off for X amount, where are you ? What size do you want?    When he queried what their assessments were for behaviour etc all went quiet and no more responses from them.  His sister in law agreed to rehome two young geldings one of which turned out to be a rig, the other a colt. She kept them but neither was what she was quite expecting.  

From what I've read on various places there are certainly huge elements for concern and it comes across that the rescue is rather a misguided hoarder who likes the attention from saving animals and being called a hero.  Reminds me a little of a lady down the road whoo had munchausens and there was always a drama for attention.

I've never visited but think I would like to. Unannounced, with a small secret camera and have a hell of a good explore. If theres nothing wrong then why the camera ban?


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## Kaylum (19 August 2016)

So if your rehoming a horse you would go see the animal and spend time with it.   Be home checked and that continues throughout the loan.  Also if that person's circumstances change (as per the agreement) they take the horse back or rehome it, as it is always under that charity's care and the charity legally own it so you cannot sell it on.  Also they should help if the horse does not settle in or has behavioural problems.   If this is not their policy think long and hard about rehoming one of their animals, are you buying it from them? 

If your buying animals through a charity what documents do you get to sign.  Are they selling them to you?  What happens if the horse has behavioural problems?


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## Kaylum (19 August 2016)

I would also suggest you look at the National Equine Welfare Council's website.  Read through some of the information on that website as it is very interesting.  http://www.newc.co.uk/


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## ester (19 August 2016)

Exactly WHW at leasts check every year as do plenty of others. They also know a lot about each animal and several are very good at either keeping youngsters and getting them backed, certainly doing work with them first, or making sure they go to homes that will do this with them because it helps secure their future if they are a useful and polite member of society I don't see AHAR doing any of the above, particularly if they can't even geld before dropping horses off. That is just appalling. 

RSPCA does sign them fully over which I don't agree with though, but then I don't agree with them a fair amount anyway.


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## puppyalert (19 August 2016)

Ddraig_wen said:



			After reading through the whole thread  and almost losing the will to live with certain confectionary related posters I thought I'd throw my two penneth in. 

One of our liveries enquired about rehoming a named equine from the charity in question. The response he got was we can drop one off for X amount, where are you ? What size do you want?    When he queried what their assessments were for behaviour etc all went quiet and no more responses from them.  His sister in law agreed to rehome two young geldings one of which turned out to be a rig, the other a colt. She kept them but neither was what she was quite expecting.  

From what I've read on various places there are certainly huge elements for concern and it comes across that the rescue is rather a misguided hoarder who likes the attention from saving animals and being called a hero.  Reminds me a little of a lady down the road whoo had munchausens and there was always a drama for attention.

I've never visited but think I would like to. Unannounced, with a small secret camera and have a hell of a good explore. If theres nothing wrong then why the camera ban?
		
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Would be interested to know were Passports mentioned at all in the initial enquiry and the two youngsters that were imported did they arrive with a Passport?


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## stormox (19 August 2016)

I have a friend who adopted what was meant to be a 4 yr gelding, it was a 2 yr colt. No passport.


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## Amye (19 August 2016)

After reading this thread I am losing the will with the ignorance of a particular poster!! Everything I  have read about this 'charity' throws up warning signals. Not being able to deliver the right animal is an absolute disgrace. I used to volunteer at a small equine charity and they would NEVER rehome to anyone they didn't deem competent and before they have vetted the home the animal was going to! The animal is also always under their care is not signed over.  
Even though the RSPCA do sign their animals over, we got a dog from them a few years ago and we were rigorously vetted and our home checked to make sure we were suitable.
Never in a million years have I heard of a 'charity' just turning up and dumping animals on anyone who says they will take one.
And a charity going and buying its own 'rescue' animals is ridiculous. 

A disgrace.


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## Mollylittle (19 August 2016)

I actually know traders here in Ireland who will sell you a horse but insist on bringing the horse to your place.(included in selling price). I know on 2 occasions that trader saw the new 'home' dumped the money and left with the horse in question. I love that. AHAR is a kip.


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## puppyalert (19 August 2016)

stormox said:



			I have a friend who adopted what was meant to be a 4 yr gelding, it was a 2 yr colt. No passport.
		
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How recent was that, any idea such as year?


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## stormox (19 August 2016)

puppyalert said:



			How recent was that, any idea such as year?
		
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It was 3 years ago she adopted him, she kept him a 18 months, gelded and broke him and sold him, he turned out a lovely childs pony. He was meant to be-according to their post on the adoption page - a 14.2 4yr gelding, he was actually a 13hh 2yr old colt.


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## Regandal (19 August 2016)

There was an awful dealer round these parts a few years ago. They couldn't get them on welfare grounds,  but the inland revenue suddenly took a keen interest.  They folded eventually.


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## stormox (1 September 2016)

Just seen theyr in the process of buying another 26 horses from somewhere- the meatman presumably....


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## Mollylittle (1 September 2016)

stormox said:



			Just seen theyr in the process of buying another 26 horses from somewhere- the meatman presumably....
		
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Their own in-house meatman to be precise..her birthday wish my *****


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## Equi (1 September 2016)

And presumably most will be sold without passports and disappear.


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## Cortez (1 September 2016)

equi said:



			And presumably most will be sold without passports and disappear.
		
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I don't think so, horses are required to have a passport and microchip here. I am in the process of adopting a dog from AHAR, and so far I've had to provide references from my own vet, pictures of enclosed garden, donation (direct to the vet that will be doing the neutering, microchipping and vaccs), and a copy of previous home check from a local rescue. This is required by the government, and their charitable status depends on compliance. Now, I think this is a recent tightening up of regulations, but it IS happening.


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## Kafairia (1 September 2016)

I think a lot of people have nailed exactly what she's all about.

I haven't read the while thread admittably, but from what I have, they sound a disgrace. Yet, I have no clue how you'd take them out.

I think it could be even more corrupt than some people are thinking. Could they be the "meat man" themselves - taking the occasional few out to look like rescues ? Probably haven't explained that very well, but oh well. 

Certainly not a charity IMO. Are they definitely a licensed charity?


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## Cortez (1 September 2016)

Yes, they are a charity. I think all the conspiracy theories are getting a little wild here; it is rather ramshackle, in an out of the way place with not a lot in the way of "official" animal welfare. I don't like the sentimental waffling on FB, but that seems to generate donations and without donations it isn't possible to run an animal rescue. It's not how I would run a rescue (buying from the meat man, etc.), but then I'm not running a rescue - at least they are providing something for animals which otherwise would have pretty much NOTHING and NOWHERE to go to. This isn't the UK.


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## Equi (1 September 2016)

Cortez said:



			I don't think so, horses are required to have a passport and microchip here. I am in the process of adopting a dog from AHAR, and so far I've had to provide references from my own vet, pictures of enclosed garden, donation (direct to the vet that will be doing the neutering, microchipping and vaccs), and a copy of previous home check from a local rescue. This is required by the government, and their charitable status depends on compliance. Now, I think this is a recent tightening up of regulations, but it IS happening.
		
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Well that is wonderful to hear. The horses of the future will hopefully not be just gone like the horses of the past.


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## ester (1 September 2016)

equi said:



			And presumably most will be sold without passports and disappear.
		
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but they might get given to people as the right sex at least.... 

It's great they do it of the dogs, shame that so far they have not done it for the horses- chip/passport/castrate.


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## Equi (1 September 2016)

ester said:



			but they might get given to people as the right sex at least....
		
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One can only hope xD


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## Dobiegirl (1 September 2016)

Well an update on Hero would be nice, she hasnt been mentioned lately which is strange as they had a huge fundraiser for her initially and no one from Ahar has explained how her feet were allowed to deteriorate to the extent that they did.


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## Dobiegirl (1 September 2016)

http://www.mhc.ie/latest/insights/c...estigative-powers-for-the-charities-regulator

Call me a cynic but the rise in standards as quoted by Cortez couldnt be anything to do with the above coming into force on 5th September.

I notice they have another code red except they are not calling it this time, 26 souls who need saving, send money so we can save them, somethings never change.


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## Dave's Mam (1 September 2016)

Looks like 30 odd horses have arrived.  On a huge lorry.


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## rascal (2 September 2016)

This place is clearly taking on animals it cant afford to keep properly, a rescue should be exactly that, not a hell hole like this place. Trouble is the less well informed people will support it.


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## stormox (2 September 2016)

Cortez said:



			Yes, they are a charity. I think all the conspiracy theories are getting a little wild here; it is rather ramshackle, in an out of the way place with not a lot in the way of "official" animal welfare. I don't like the sentimental waffling on FB, but that seems to generate donations and without donations it isn't possible to run an animal rescue. It's not how I would run a rescue (buying from the meat man, etc.), but then I'm not running a rescue - at least they are providing something for animals which otherwise would have pretty much NOTHING and NOWHERE to go to. This isn't the UK.[/QUOTE

The main problem, IMHO, seems to be they arent always 'rescuing', they are buying. Yes horses at fairs arent always particularly well handled, you only had to look at the 'Gypsy Kids' programme last night, go to Appleby, Stow or low-class sales at Beeston, llandybyther etc in UK, or Puck Ballinasloe in ROI. There will always be meatmen, knackermen types buying the low class, low value animals. BUT - and Im sure Im going to get slated here- surely euthanasia, PTS, or factory is the best place for some of these? 
I think if AHAR (and it happened in the UK with Wiccaways ) keep buying animals - its Ballinasloe soon and they bought 90 there last year- it makes it impossible for them to care properly for the real rescues? They have just bought 30 horses from the meatman. They already have their stables full, and horses/donkeys in all the fields. Winters coming, the grazing in the winter in Kerry is bogland and doesnt stand up to having horses on in winter. Homes will get scarcer as the bad weather and dark evenings come. Where are they all going to go? Maybe they shoulve stayed where they were, with the "meatman".
		
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## Mollylittle (2 September 2016)

stormox said:





Cortez said:



			Yes, they are a charity. I think all the conspiracy theories are getting a little wild here; it is rather ramshackle, in an out of the way place with not a lot in the way of "official" animal welfare. I don't like the sentimental waffling on FB, but that seems to generate donations and without donations it isn't possible to run an animal rescue. It's not how I would run a rescue (buying from the meat man, etc.), but then I'm not running a rescue - at least they are providing something for animals which otherwise would have pretty much NOTHING and NOWHERE to go to. This isn't the UK.[/QUOTE

The main problem, IMHO, seems to be they arent always 'rescuing', they are buying. Yes horses at fairs arent always particularly well handled, you only had to look at the 'Gypsy Kids' programme last night, go to Appleby, Stow or low-class sales at Beeston, llandybyther etc in UK, or Puck Ballinasloe in ROI. There will always be meatmen, knackermen types buying the low class, low value animals. BUT - and Im sure Im going to get slated here- surely euthanasia, PTS, or factory is the best place for some of these? 
I think if AHAR (and it happened in the UK with Wiccaways ) keep buying animals - its Ballinasloe soon and they bought 90 there last year- it makes it impossible for them to care properly for the real rescues? They have just bought 30 horses from the meatman. They already have their stables full, and horses/donkeys in all the fields. Winters coming, the grazing in the winter in Kerry is bogland and doesnt stand up to having horses on in winter. Homes will get scarcer as the bad weather and dark evenings come. Where are they all going to go? Maybe they shoulve stayed where they were, with the "meatman".
		
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I can only agree. I also keep wondering why they 'buy' animals..possibly cause no one will surrender to them any more? The number of animals disappearing without a trace form the public eye after they have been milked for the very last penny is astonishing.People asking for updates are usually blocked..It's a cult, not a rescue. It's hoarding in the worsted sense of the word as a hoarder still loves the animals in their care.there's no love here
		
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## Carrots&Mints (2 September 2016)

I donate to AHAR when I can, I believe they do a great job and I follow them on Facebook. They seem to give all their animals a great home, well that is what is portrayed on Facebook. I haven't watched any videos or read any news papers regarding AHAR, so cannot comment on any negativities. I do believe this lady has the best intentions.


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## Mollylittle (2 September 2016)

well, from someone who has been there I can only advise you to donate to a charity you can actually visit without restrictions. AHAR is NOT a good place


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## puppyalert (2 September 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			Their own in-house meatman to be precise..her birthday wish my ***** 

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Yes she knows how to pull the heart strings and manipulate the supporters into donating to pay for the equines.  This has become a regular pattern for AHAR to acquire or 'purchase' equines from a 'meat man' dealer and dogs too.  The same as the regular transport of dogs to the UK mostly to Allsorts Dog Rescue every two weeks or so and others dropped off enroute. They have in recent times exported more and more equines to the UK.  It is as if we the people in the UK are desperate to acquire equines and dogs when we have our own problems with surplace unwanted equines and dogs sadly all seeking good homes, why when we cannot rehome our own are we importing hundreds more?  I have no problem witha few at a time but are these regular consistent transports necessary when it appears that some of the equines are not genuine rescued animals but specifically purchased from dealers for the purpose of export.


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## Cortez (2 September 2016)

Mollylittle said:



			well, from someone who has been there I can only advise you to donate to a charity you can actually visit without restrictions. AHAR is NOT a good place
		
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No, it's not, but it is the ONLY place for some of these animals. I completely agree that the meat man is the best answer for many of the horses that end up there, and buying animals from the fairs is really only perpetuating the trade. What is really needed is legislation which would give the ISPCA (Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) real teeth to go in and sieze animals in bad situations. Having dealt with the ISPCA over a horse cruelty situation several years ago I know how powerless they are (or were; legislation has been tightened up).


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## ester (2 September 2016)

Carrots&Mints said:



			I donate to AHAR when I can, I believe they do a great job and I follow them on Facebook. They seem to give all their animals a great home, w*ell that is what is portrayed on Facebook.* I haven't watched any videos or read any news papers regarding AHAR, so cannot comment on any negativities. I do believe this lady has the best intentions.
		
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Key point there, you can portray yourself as whoever you want to be online. 

Cortez I do likely think there is a combination of factors over there, AHAR partly gets rid of the some of the problem for an ISPCA that can do very little about the issues anyway.


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## Mollylittle (2 September 2016)

Cortez said:



			No, it's not, but it is the ONLY place for some of these animals. I completely agree that the meat man is the best answer for many of the horses that end up there, and buying animals from the fairs is really only perpetuating the trade. What is really needed is legislation which would give the ISPCA (Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) real teeth to go in and sieze animals in bad situations. Having dealt with the ISPCA over a horse cruelty situation several years ago I know how powerless they are (or were; legislation has been tightened up).
		
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I agree it can be the ONLY place. Thats why I say that in those cases a gently and dignified passing is the better choice than being left in a place where 50% of the animals taken in only come out in a black bag - or simply disappear.I have horses, dogs,cats and goats. And i would NEVER EVER surrender any of them to AHAR- I'd give them a dignified passing, knowing they were loved. Not dumped in a sh***hole.


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## stormox (2 September 2016)

Carrots&Mints said:



			I donate to AHAR when I can, I believe they do a great job and I follow them on Facebook. They seem to give all their animals a great home, well that is what is portrayed on Facebook. I haven't watched any videos or read any news papers regarding AHAR, so cannot comment on any negativities. I do believe this lady has the best intentions.
		
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You can be anything you want on FB  If you want to give to AHAR - your choice, fair enough. But give the money direct to the  vet, feed supplier, farrier, not  just paypal or cash to AHAR, then you know the money WILL be used for the animals.

Cortez, it isnt really 'ramshackle' and 'out of the way'..... the stables and indoor school were built less than 10 years ago as an equestrian facility, and the fields fenced properly. It is only 3 miles from Castleisland town and a mile or less off the main road. Very easy to get to, luckily,  seeing the size of the truck that delivered the recent batch of equines.


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## puppyalert (2 September 2016)

stormox said:



			You can be anything you want on FB  If you want to give to AHAR - your choice, fair enough. But give the money direct to the  vet, feed supplier, farrier, not  just paypal or cash to AHAR, then you know the money WILL be used for the animals.

Cortez, it isnt really 'ramshackle' and 'out of the way'..... the stables and indoor school were built less than 10 years ago as an equestrian facility, and the fields fenced properly. It is only 3 miles from Castleisland town and a mile or less off the main road. Very easy to get to, luckily,  seeing the size of the truck that delivered the recent batch of equines.
		
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Stormox you have obviously seen a photo of the transporter I have too.  Is it permissable, legally (disregarding AHARs comment to an enquiry) to transport 26 equines in a cattle truck?


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## stormox (2 September 2016)

puppyalert said:



			Stormox you have obviously seen a photo of the transporter I have too.  Is it permissable, legally (disregarding AHARs comment to an enquiry) to transport 26 equines in a cattle truck?
		
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Well, to be honest, they were being illegally transported anyway, as none of them appear to be passported. I'm no expert on the transportation laws, I believe its law that the vehicle is escape proof, strong enough to hold the animals, enough ventilation and no sharp edges to hurt anything, there also must be access. But is there any other differences between a horse truck and a cattle truck? Im not sure.


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## puppyalert (2 September 2016)

stormox said:



			Well, to be honest, they were being illegally transported anyway, as none of them appear to be passported. I'm no expert on the transportation laws, I believe its law that the vehicle is escape proof, strong enough to hold the animals, enough ventilation and no sharp edges to hurt anything, there also must be access. But is there any other differences between a horse truck and a cattle truck? Im not sure.
		
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Maybe this will help. okay this relates to England but as most Animal Transport Legislation is EU Legislation I would imagine it would be very similar for the ROI (maybe someone can advise who is a resident in the ROI).  As you so rightly say transportation without passports is illegal.   This is something that happens all the time with equine arriving at AHAR they say they Passport them after arrival.  Is that satisfactory does not sound right to me. 
http://www3.hants.gov.uk/tradingsta...ness-animalhealth/tsguide-horse-transport.htm


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## stormox (2 September 2016)

No all equines must travel with passports. And yes it will be same rules in ROI and UK as its EU laws re lorries/trailers. But the passport laws are such a joke- in both countries- it would be very hard to police them.
There was actually a post on here a while back about using a cattle trailer for a pony, and the general consensus seems to be its fine.


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## Dave's Mam (2 September 2016)

ROI is part of EU.


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## stormox (2 September 2016)

Camilla's Aunty Em said:



			ROI is part of EU.
		
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I know thats why its the same transport law for both.


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## Dave's Mam (2 September 2016)

Yes, yes.  That didn't even look like a cattle lorry!  It looked like a transporter!


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## Dobiegirl (2 September 2016)

Can someone more skilful than me put the photo on here so HHOs can see and give their opinion please.


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## stormox (2 September 2016)

Camilla's Aunty Em said:



			Yes, yes.  That didn't even look like a cattle lorry!  It looked like a transporter!
		
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what do you mean 'a transporter'? of what? as the cab and rear ramp arent shown its hard to say. It could even be a lorry that transports sand or gravel, there are no vents.


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## ester (2 September 2016)

open top trailer. 
https://www.facebook.com/ahar.ie/ph...876848765350/1258544290831928/?type=3&theater


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## Leo Walker (2 September 2016)

This is the transport that they came in:


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## ester (2 September 2016)

having already told them off for nicking pics of the interweb I opted out of that one  although they maintained if no copywrite it doesn't matter. 

It looks like an open tractor livestock trailer to me. An open trailer in ireland sounds soggy


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## Dave's Mam (2 September 2016)

It just looks downright unpleasant to me.


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## Leo Walker (2 September 2016)

ester said:



			having already told them off for nicking pics of the interweb I opted out of that one  although they maintained if no copywrite it doesn't matter. 

It looks like an open tractor livestock trailer to me. An open trailer in ireland sounds soggy 

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I just copied it from their page so they clearly paid you no attention! However naively I assumed that was a snap shot that they had taken. Did they lift if off google images??


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## Kaylum (3 September 2016)

I still cannot understand what this place is trying to achieve apart from buying and selling (dealing)  do they do rehab? Do they take the animals back if there are problems when they are in new homes? Do they help with behaviour problems?


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## puppyalert (3 September 2016)

ester said:



			having already told them off for nicking pics of the interweb I opted out of that one  although they maintained if no copywrite it doesn't matter. 

It looks like an open tractor livestock trailer to me. An open trailer in ireland sounds soggy 

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So did they use this trailer/transporter or did they nick the photo off the Internet and said this was the trailer they used when in fact they used another?  Sorry, confused.


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## Equi (3 September 2016)

puppyalert said:



			So did they use this trailer/transporter or did they nick the photo off the Internet and said this was the trailer they used when in fact they used another?  Sorry, confused.
		
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I believe this is what they used but they said the council used it too so it was "okay"

Many were stallions so I expect a few surprises to come next year in the form of mules and more ponies.


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## Cortez (3 September 2016)

Kaylum said:



			I still cannot understand what this place is trying to achieve apart from buying and selling (dealing)  do they do rehab? Do they take the animals back if there are problems when they are in new homes? Do they help with behaviour problems?
		
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The livestock trailer is precisely what it says on the tin: for transporting livestock, nothing wrong with that.

I can't quite believe that I am (sort of) defending something of which I strongly disapprove, but the tone of this post is unpleasant and accusatory. Perhaps you are unaware of the situation in countries other than your own (I am aware that there are posters here like myself from Ireland). This is a registered charity, operating outside of the remit of the ISPCA but subject to government regulation; it is a "private" rescue, of which there are several in Ireland. 

I cannot speak for them (they are voluble enough at that themselves), they are not "selling" animals - all rescues ask for a donation, they would'nt be able to continue without. I am about to collect a dog from them for which I paid a donation (direct to the vet) which I know does not cover the full cost of neuter/vaccs/micro chip. I have another dog from another rescue for which I also paid a donation fee. 

As far as I know horses are vaccinated, wormed, de-loused, castrated, passported and have farrier and other necessary vet treatment before they are rehomed, but they are not a training establishment, any more than the RSPCA is. I volunteer my time when I can to the local ISPCA horse centre to handle horses for them, and have backed a few that were suitable, something that vastly improves their chances of getting a home.

These people are trying their best in the midst of an absolute avalanche of neglected, unwanted, abandoned animals. The answers are complex, largely rooted in stopping the breeding of these creatures in the first place.  No, they should not be buying horses from the meat man; that is where I think the vast majority of these horses should go. But please don't trouble yourselves thinking there are vast profits being made, or that money is the motivation behind AHAR's actions. For the non-equines they are doing SOMETHING in a situation in which the alternative is NOTHING.


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## paddi22 (3 September 2016)

Cortez said:



			As far as I know horses are vaccinated, wormed, de-loused, castrated, passported and have farrier and other necessary vet treatment before they are rehomed,
		
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this is definitely not the case unfortunately, that's why i have such an issue with them.  People receive horses off them with no documentation, often the wrong sex, or uncastrated. People have surrendered horses to them, and then found out the horses weren't fed or cared for correctly and look like skeletons after a few months of ahars 'care'  They can't even care correctly for the horses they have in their care, so it impossible that they could handle and treat this new batch correctly. 


  I genuinely believe the owner has good intentions but is a hoarder and overwhelms herself and is unable to provide basic care and it's let slide because it's for the 'greater good' in her eyes.   There is no way a small overwhelmed charity can assess the health, rideablilty or rehoming potential of that many horses. The larger official charities would struggle to. What will happen is the horses will be passed on as quickly as possible to naive caring souls. A lot of whom will end up taking nasty falls or damage from horses that probably ended up at the meatman for a good reason.

If she had a proper system and proper accountablility for every horse that comes in then that would be something, but their isn't.


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## stormox (3 September 2016)

The thing that bothers me, Cortez, is not the 'above board' FB and 'sat afternoon visiting' picture of the place. Thats all perfect, I am sure.  (Well, it is, Ive been) its the fact that the manager seems not to be able to see sense at times. Putting a wild rabbit with mixi in intensive care, amputating the wing of a magpie, keeping a dying donkey in her sitting room, keeping the coloured pony with contracted tendons and associated club foot alive (and IMHO suffering) taking in dogs and horses which she has no room for, which are perfectly healthy animals for sale at a fair, they aren't all being cruelly treated - a true animal lover, and manager of a rescue should be more selective in how they manage donations.
I am not sure where this last lot came from, it cant be far from their premises as at 4pm they were asking for donations and transport help, and at 7pm approx they had arrived in the big truck, which presumably cant travel very fast. But if anyone asks a legitimate question, such as "How come 'the meatman' has so many unpassported equines " on their FB page they aren't answered, just comments deleted and banned.
I think they would do themselves a BIG favour if they stopped banning people who asked legitimate questions and answer them truthfully. I dont expect them to be 'open all hours' for the public, just to be more open and honest. For example -IF the Rottie x pups died of parvo, (and this is purely an example of a question someone has asked) admit it- they probably had it when they arrived, it wouldn't be AHARs fault if they couldn't be saved, why not just tell the true story?


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## ester (3 September 2016)

puppyalert said:



			So did they use this trailer/transporter or did they nick the photo off the Internet and said this was the trailer they used when in fact they used another?  Sorry, confused.
		
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Sorry I meant further up this thread where they had stolen a copywrite picture of an Irish fair to put on their facebook, the AHAR supporter posting had previously said that it didn't matter that it wasn't a picture of the right fair if it wasn't copywrited. Reverse google image searching proved it was copywrited and that the picture had been cropped to remove that bit. So I posted the link so as not to be hypocritical . That trailer is what delivered the horses, it is not lifted from elsewhere.


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## ester (3 September 2016)

Cortez said:



			The livestock trailer is precisely what it says on the tin: for transporting livestock, nothing wrong with that.

I can't quite believe that I am (sort of) defending something of which I strongly disapprove, but the tone of this post is unpleasant and accusatory. Perhaps you are unaware of the situation in countries other than your own (I am aware that there are posters here like myself from Ireland). This is a registered charity, operating outside of the remit of the ISPCA but subject to government regulation; it is a "private" rescue, of which there are several in Ireland. 

I cannot speak for them (they are voluble enough at that themselves), they are not "selling" animals - all rescues ask for a donation, they would'nt be able to continue without. I am about to collect a dog from them for which I paid a donation (direct to the vet) which I know does not cover the full cost of neuter/vaccs/micro chip. I have another dog from another rescue for which I also paid a donation fee. 

As far as I know horses are vaccinated, wormed, de-loused, castrated, passported and have farrier and other necessary vet treatment before they are rehomed, but they are not a training establishment, any more than the RSPCA is. I volunteer my time when I can to the local ISPCA horse centre to handle horses for them, and have backed a few that were suitable, something that vastly improves their chances of getting a home.

These people are trying their best in the midst of an absolute avalanche of neglected, unwanted, abandoned animals. The answers are complex, largely rooted in stopping the breeding of these creatures in the first place.  No, they should not be buying horses from the meat man; that is where I think the vast majority of these horses should go. But please don't trouble yourselves thinking there are vast profits being made, or that money is the motivation behind AHAR's actions. For the non-equines they are doing SOMETHING in a situation in which the alternative is NOTHING.
		
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In which case maybe we should get back to the original point of this post which was that poor darn pony that they have openly lied about because the photos tell a completely different tale to the one they are peddling. 
I don't think money is being made etc etc, it is all about one persons ego and saviour complex regardless of the consequences for some of the animals, particularly the ones which are best for fundraising. 

Fwiw I have no major issue with the transport method.


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## Kaylum (3 September 2016)

Cortez said:



			The livestock trailer is precisely what it says on the tin: for transporting livestock, nothing wrong with that.

I can't quite believe that I am (sort of) defending something of which I strongly disapprove, but the tone of this post is unpleasant and accusatory. Perhaps you are unaware of the situation in countries other than your own (I am aware that there are posters here like myself from Ireland). This is a registered charity, operating outside of the remit of the ISPCA but subject to government regulation; it is a "private" rescue, of which there are several in Ireland. 

I cannot speak for them (they are voluble enough at that themselves), they are not "selling" animals - all rescues ask for a donation, they would'nt be able to continue without. I am about to collect a dog from them for which I paid a donation (direct to the vet) which I know does not cover the full cost of neuter/vaccs/micro chip. I have another dog from another rescue for which I also paid a donation fee. 

As far as I know horses are vaccinated, wormed, de-loused, castrated, passported and have farrier and other necessary vet treatment before they are rehomed, but they are not a training establishment, any more than the RSPCA is. I volunteer my time when I can to the local ISPCA horse centre to handle horses for them, and have backed a few that were suitable, something that vastly improves their chances of getting a home.

These people are trying their best in the midst of an absolute avalanche of neglected, unwanted, abandoned animals. The answers are complex, largely rooted in stopping the breeding of these creatures in the first place.  No, they should not be buying horses from the meat man; that is where I think the vast majority of these horses should go. But please don't trouble yourselves thinking there are vast profits being made, or that money is the motivation behind AHAR's actions. For the non-equines they are doing SOMETHING in a situation in which the alternative is NOTHING.
		
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I just wondered as I have never been there or heard of them until I read this and looked at their Facebook.  Fair enough. I guess it is better than nothing especially if they castrate.


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## ester (3 September 2016)

Lets hope they have turned a corner and are castrating, passporting and chipping before rehoming to the homes that are expecting the animal they receive.


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## Cortez (3 September 2016)

stormox said:



			The thing that bothers me, Cortez, is not the 'above board' FB and 'sat afternoon visiting' picture of the place. Thats all perfect, I am sure.  (Well, it is, Ive been) its the fact that the manager seems not to be able to see sense at times. Putting a wild rabbit with mixi in intensive care, amputating the wing of a magpie, keeping a dying donkey in her sitting room, keeping the coloured pony with contracted tendons and associated club foot alive (and IMHO suffering) taking in dogs and horses which she has no room for, which are perfectly healthy animals for sale at a fair, they aren't all being cruelly treated - a true animal lover, and manager of a rescue should be more selective in how they manage donations.
I am not sure where this last lot came from, it cant be far from their premises as at 4pm they were asking for donations and transport help, and at 7pm approx they had arrived in the big truck, which presumably cant travel very fast. But if anyone asks a legitimate question, such as "How come 'the meatman' has so many unpassported equines " on their FB page they aren't answered, just comments deleted and banned.
I think they would do themselves a BIG favour if they stopped banning people who asked legitimate questions and answer them truthfully. I dont expect them to be 'open all hours' for the public, just to be more open and honest. For example -IF the Rottie x pups died of parvo, (and this is purely an example of a question someone has asked) admit it- they probably had it when they arrived, it wouldn't be AHARs fault if they couldn't be saved, why not just tell the true story?
		
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Yes, all that bothers me too; a LOT, but it also bothers me that people are jumping on the bandwagon to denigrate someone who is doing some good. I havn't been there yet (will be picking up a dog next week), but I have friends who have and the place is certainly not the hellhole that some people are saying it is, nor is the proprietor an animal hoarder, nor making a fortune from selling horses (the two would be mutually exclusive anyway). I expect that the truth is somewhere in between the image they portray and the rather hysterical allegations being made.

It is easy to criticise, but it rubs me up the wrong way when someone who is doing SOMETHING, albeit IMO misguided, is criticised by people who in all liklihood have done...what? And now the pack are worrying away at the method of transport? Nothing wrong with transporting animals in an animal transporter.


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## ester (3 September 2016)

Nope I'm still worrying about the pony who started this thread, not the transport, nor do I think they are making any sort of money from the outfit. But I do think they mislead and lie to people in order to get donations, that is wrong.
Out of interest do you have any other dogs? Have you had any sort of home check?


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## Cortez (3 September 2016)

ester said:



			Nope I'm still worrying about the pony who started this thread, not the transport, nor do I think they are making any sort of money from the outfit. But I do think they mislead and lie to people in order to get donations, that is wrong.
Out of interest do you have any other dogs? Have you had any sort of home check?
		
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Yes, I have a dog from another rescue (also private, also quite ramshackle, also struggling and overwhelmed). I have had two homechecks, one from the ISPCA and one from our local rescue (CSPCA). I had to provide a copy of the ISPCA report to AHAR, also an e-mail from my vet, and they phoned them. I must say AHAR were quite thorough. In my quest to replace our recently dearly departed dog I have been to a number of rescue centres and county pounds - the scale of animal neglect is appalling here.

Edited to add: I entirely agree re the pony being talked about in the OP, abuse upon abuse. Shocking.


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## Dobiegirl (3 September 2016)

Cortez said:



			Yes, all that bothers me too; a LOT, but it also bothers me that people are jumping on the bandwagon to denigrate someone who is doing some good. I havn't been there yet (will be picking up a dog next week), but I have friends who have and the place is certainly not the hellhole that some people are saying it is, nor is the proprietor an animal hoarder, nor making a fortune from selling horses (the two would be mutually exclusive anyway). I expect that the truth is somewhere in between the image they portray and the rather hysterical allegations being made.

It is easy to criticise, but it rubs me up the wrong way when someone who is doing SOMETHING, albeit IMO misguided, is criticised by people who in all liklihood have done...what? And now the pack are worrying away at the method of transport? Nothing wrong with transporting animals in an animal transporter.
		
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As Ester said back to the original post, do you find that acceptable because I and others dont, its not a one off either as per the poor donkey Kaylum, there are loads of other instances as well. Just because some make it out to good homes doesnt make it  right if its at  the expense of others, where do you draw the line and it is about the money. If you add up what people are donating it runs into thousands, where is this money going.

In the past they have had huge fund raisers for things like the hoist and one man even made a huge donation in memory of a family member, it never materialised, it was never mentioned again. If anyone asked about it their comment was quickly deleted and they were banned, does that sound like a responsible rescue?

When its open to the public everything is pristine, of course it is but there are areas you are not allowed to go, as we have seen with Hero there is a very good reason for that, how many more animals like Hero are shut away from the general public.


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## Cortez (3 September 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			As Ester said back to the original post, do you find that acceptable because I and others dont, its not a one off either as per the poor donkey Kaylum, there are loads of other instances as well. Just because some make it out to good homes doesnt make it  right if its at  the expense of others, where do you draw the line and it is about the money. If you add up what people are donating it runs into thousands, where is this money going.

In the past they have had huge fund raisers for things like the hoist and one man even made a huge donation in memory of a family member, it never materialised, it was never mentioned again. If anyone asked about it their comment was quickly deleted and they were banned, does that sound like a responsible rescue?

When its open to the public everything is pristine, of course it is but there are areas you are not allowed to go, as we have seen with Hero there is a very good reason for that, how many more animals like Hero are shut away from the general public.
		
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No, I do not find it acceptable, and I profoundly disagree with a lot of the sentimental guff being spouted on their FB page. Keeping animals alive that should be put out of their misery, prolonging life so that "he can die surrounded by love" is both cruel and stupid. 

But ganging up and criticising perfectly legitimate occurences and practises is just hysteria. I am quite sure there are areas off limits to the public in any sanctuary, it doesn't necessarily mean there are sinister goings on.


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## Dobiegirl (3 September 2016)

Highlighting an act of cruelty and neglect is not ganging up, its not criticising for criticism's sake but bringing to the wider public a side to Ahar they would rather people didn't know about or talk about it,  certainly not on a forum such as this with its wide audience.

I would love for them to do what responsible rescues do and be open and transparent but until that day I will continue to highlight the cruelty and neglect.


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## Cortez (3 September 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			Highlighting an act of cruelty and neglect is not ganging up, its not criticising for criticism's sake but bringing to the wider public a side to Ahar they would rather people didn't know about or talk about it,  certainly not on a forum such as this with its wide audience.

I would love for them to do what responsible rescues do and be open and transparent but until that day I will continue to highlight the cruelty and neglect.
		
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Please do, I think it is vital that hyperbole and sentiment does not cloud or disguise less than responsible management of animals in distress. But I think some posts are just as guilty of exactly the same sort of wilful blindness and hysteria. Far more helpful to actually do something about it, rather than just sit back and take potshots.


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## ester (3 September 2016)

It's taking the information as a whole though isn't it? It isn't picking up on individual practices or the fact that there are off  limit areas its the small and larger things that build up to the bigger picture. One that they don't really see when they are out there buying animals in fair condition at markets and 'saving' animals in good condition from the meatman - given the recent delivery. 
When they get a genuine welfare case that really needs their help they seem to fail miserably .

I also think the off limits areas things has only been brought up because they say 'come and visit, you will see everything we do is great' or along those lines when actually logic says that isn't really going to prove much.


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## Kaylum (3 September 2016)

Don't you think the visitor off limits places might be to do with insurance as if those parts are ramshackle then you wouldn't want the public tripping up and getting injured? Just a thought?


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## ester (3 September 2016)

No, every rescue should have off limit areas as they always need space for some of the animals that need to not be disturbed. I would absolutely expect it, I just don't then think a visit is a means of proving everything that goes on.


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## Dobiegirl (3 September 2016)

Kaylum said:



			Don't you think the visitor off limits places might be to do with insurance as if those parts are ramshackle then you wouldn't want the public tripping up and getting injured? Just a thought.

I think thats a given and applies everywhere such as zoos,castles etc but as Ester says put it all together and you have a very worrying situation.
		
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## Equi (3 September 2016)

Kaylum said:



			Don't you think the visitor off limits places might be to do with insurance as if those parts are ramshackle then you wouldn't want the public tripping up and getting injured? Just a thought?
		
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They are closed off because they have animals in unsuitable situations. A parrot was (and possibly still is) housed in an attic cage above the stables/barn - no light or ventilation or stimulation at all. When pictures of the birds housing surfaced they went mad and instead of saying ok not the best place for the bird, they deleted everything and the bird was never mentioned again. What sort of place BANS phones and cameras. The local horse charity here gets loads of pics taken on its open days. I went up once for a bit of volunteering and I was welcomed with open arms.


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## Dobiegirl (4 September 2016)

Thank you to all of you, who have been messaging me privately with your concerns for Millstreet horse fair tomorrow. 
Yes last year we took 3 orphan foals, 9 ponies, 12 dogs/pups and 5 roosters but we just saved 26 equines from an uncertain future and their fundraiser is just about ticking over. 
Children have just gone back to school. God love you as parents its all so expensive now. Money is so tight by everyone. 
You, my team and I. As an army have and are breaking our backs scrounging funds and saving as many as we can on full throttle every day of every week. Without question we are on the front line. No fear and hitting a huge success rate.
AHAR is run by volunteers who personally made a commitment to come to my side with my dream and help me just like you. We all made the choice to sign up for this powerful army. We have changed history. Over and over again. 
Unless a miracle of some sort happens tonight with funds. Sadly. We will not be at the fair tomorrow. I know a lot of you will say ( because you care. Thank you xx )
Suzanne you cant save the world, but I will always respond with, just let me try. 
All I can promise is. As of now. 22.10 Saturday evening and 7pm tomorrow night. 
Any donation made will be used for an animal from the fair. 
Is that ok? And then Monday we will go back to the 26 equines.


Another buying spree, they already have an additional 26 horses but they are going to buy more if the donations roll in, most of their volunteers will be back at school so how the  hell can they look after them properly.


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## CAYLA (5 September 2016)

Shocking.


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## Dobiegirl (9 September 2016)

https://www.facebook.com/ahar.ie/

Can I ask everyone to ask on the Ahar page for an update on Hero please, Hero is the little pony featured in the video at the start of this thread and then comment here that you have, thank you.


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## puppyalert (2 December 2016)

Still no further update or information regarding Hero, can only suspect wha thas happened.  However, today they have written this:- Animal Heaven Animal Rescue
12 hrs · 

Glin horse fair Co. Limerick is the final fair of the year and its on this Saturday. 
 Thanks to your adoptions yes we can now do the last fair of the year. We will have space. 
 17 equines leaving tomorrow for the UK. 
 More equines leaving for Irish homes next week. 
 Also we are planning the Northern England and Scottish equine trip. 
 13 dogs leaving AHAR on Saturday to Irish homes. 
 28 dogs leaving for the UK. 
 Our re homing is a massive success. 
 As its the last fair this year we are expecting the worst but lets hope we are wrong. 
 Tonight we are going to start the fundraising and we'll do what we can on the day, like always. 
 If you would like to support this mission and help us take animals from the fair. Just follow our pay pal link to donate. 
 I'll be glad when they are over, even if its only for a while. But then the dumping starts so Im not sure which is the lesser of two evils.

END

Why are people prepared to adopt an equine unseen, I do not understand this maybe someone can explain please?  How sound are these equines when they have been purchased from fairs and the 'meat man'?  I guess they mean dealer who has acquired equines from the meat man. How can AHAR ensure the equines are going to a good home, if a vets letter if that is what they ask for adequate? Are all these equines healthy or is the UK becomming an easy option for another countries unwanted via AHAR?


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## stormox (2 December 2016)

They were meant to have bought 17 dogs at killorglin Nov 18th. I was there, very small fair in a small car park. There was a pen of cattle, about 5 cobs, a nicely turned out  driving pony a shetland, 2 pigeons and a few hens. I am sure there were no dogs there at all......
I wonder when they put 'dogs leaving for UK homes' do they count those going to the rescues?


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## Dancing_Diva (2 December 2016)

I know of someone locally to me in Kent that homed a pony from AHAR. It arrived and actually had a passport. The person had issues with the pony and tried to contact AHAR to sort it out or send the pony back, they ignored all calls/messages and eventually blocked the person on Facebook!

I don't know what became of the poor pony in the end, last I see it was advertised on Facebook for sale as AHAR wouldn't respond to the person!


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## stormox (2 December 2016)

I saw that- it was a rig. she put it on a FB site for  £100 and I think she ended up giving it away ( or she put on the FB comments to her ad she would to someones question. she was so deparate, poor girl


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## Dancing_Diva (2 December 2016)

I felt for the pony. The girl who had him is very well know sadly for getting something then few weeks down the line no longer wanting it and getting rid! 

Still doesn't make right what this charity have done and continue to do!


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## stormox (2 December 2016)

The charity should have homechecked!!


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## squirkle (2 December 2016)

This place, ugh. A friend of mine who fell on really tough times had to give up her husky for his own sake, he was always VERY well cared for and went to AHAR happy and healthy. It broke her heart. But what was worse was when a few weeks later a picture of the dog popped up all skin and bones and patches of missing fur with a huge sob story of how he had been kept on a chain in a tiny concrete yard and starved, only being fed once a week. When she tried to defend herself she and a load of us got blocked. 

The owner is a hoarder, she whips up sob stories to gain more donations then the animals go to their foster homes, where they apparently stay forever most of the time as there was never another update on my friends dog.


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## stormox (2 December 2016)

The same thing happened to a neighbour of a friend of mine- he had to go into a hospice, and took his much lover pet yorkie x there. Within a week it appeared on their FB page, all back combed and dirtied up, headline ex puppy farm dog found in Wicklow ( he lived in Co Kerry)


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## puppyalert (23 December 2016)

Be aware it is not advisable to import equines from AHAR it is reported that a person in Fife Scotland did recently and found that two of them (she imported/adopted more) were suffering from strangles and has had to close her yard.  AHAR is a disgrace.  I posing this link on a FAcebook page I hope it is permissable to do so.  








Animal Heaven Animal Rescue AHAR Exposed added 4 new photos.

29 mins · 
..

DID AHAR EXPORT STRANGLES?

On Tuesday 19 December the representative of AHAR in Scotland reported that she was closing down her yard until further notice because two ponies which arrived from AHAR on the 26th of November had tested positive for the highly contagious equine disease, strangles, after leaving her yard on or around the 3rd of December. Strangles, caused by the bacterium Streptococcus equi, is characterised by severe inflammation of the mucous membranes of the head and throat, snotty nose, raised temperature, swollen glands, and abscesses which can rupture and produce large quantities of thick pus. Some horses may only contract a mild case with few symptoms and recover quickly, while more severe cases may result in death.

Although strangles is not a notifiable disease, the Scottish representative did the ethical thing by closing down her yard and notifying everyone through a public posting on Facebook, even though she says that neither the other three horses she received from AHAR nor her own had shown any sign of the disease so far. The two ponies from AHAR, a black-and-white cob (Gabriel) and a foal (Spirit), are now under veterinary care with their new owners in Fife.

A post on the page of the new owners on the 10th of December mentions that Spirit was showing signs of a cold. The incubation time for strangles is 3 to 14 days, so given the time frame involved, there is every possibility that they picked up strangles at AHAR.

Have AHAR alerted the many homes and resellers their equines have gone to in the past few weeks to watch out for strangles? Have they closed their yard and had their equines checked? If strangles has been found in the yard are they taking all the proper precautions and warning anyone who comes into the yard that there are equines with strangles there?

Given that strangles is highly contagious and can result in serious illness or even death, and that some equines can become carriers who shed the bacteria for the rest of their lives (though this is rare; the average shedding time is roughly 6 weeks), AHAR should close their yard down now and take appropriate action to identify, isolate and treat equines at risk until given the all clear by a vet, and notify everyone who has had contact with AHAR equines.

For basic info about strangles see http://www.animedvets.co.uk/horse_strangles.htm






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## puppyalert (23 December 2016)

This was prior to the report of two cases of strangles:-  










Animal Heaven Animal Rescue

8 December at 17:49 · 
..

Sorry the page has been so quiet today but...... 
 It is out of this world news for the equines of AHAR. 
 Today we have been so busy getting..... 
 Are you ready? 
 This is sooooo exciting! 

TWENTY THREE 

Equines ready for transport to the wonderful amazing people of Scotland who have come to our side to offer our forgotten equines of Ireland a home. 
 Like WOW! 
 As of now they have all been vet checked today. Thank you Steve. 
 Brushed and cleaned up, ready to travel. ( thank you volunteers ) 
 Now we are waiting on what time the transporter is coming in the next 24 hrs to let all their new families know, they are on their way. 
 Thank you with all my heart to the people of Scotland especially Lynne and Catherine who are the AHAR reps there. The girls helped pull this all together with homes checks and finding the new homes. 
 The biggest thanks is to you. Our supporters who donated to save them.
 Pay all their veterinary costs. Pay the farrier. Pay to support them with food and care while they waited. 
 You made them visible. 
 AHAR army. Take a bow. 
 What a success story. 
 I am so excited I could burst. 
 Love Suzanne xx


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## laura_nash (23 December 2016)

squirkle said:



			This place, ugh. A friend of mine who fell on really tough times had to give up her husky for his own sake, he was always VERY well cared for and went to AHAR happy and healthy. It broke her heart. But what was worse was when a few weeks later a picture of the dog popped up all skin and bones and patches of missing fur with a huge sob story of how he had been kept on a chain in a tiny concrete yard and starved, only being fed once a week. When she tried to defend herself she and a load of us got blocked. 

The owner is a hoarder, she whips up sob stories to gain more donations then the animals go to their foster homes, where they apparently stay forever most of the time as there was never another update on my friends dog.
		
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Do you know if your friend posted on https://www.facebook.com/Animal-Heaven-Animal-Rescue-AHAR-Exposed-795034397244586/ ?  It was set up for people who were blocked from posting on the AHAR facebook page.  The more of these stories that get posted there, the better chance someone will read it and not donate money or hand in an animal to them.


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