# Low starch feeds



## SpottedCat (15 December 2008)

Right, horse has decided it does not eat Winergy anymore after last months antibiotic course. Why is beyond me, but there it is. Currently it is eating alfalfa high fibre chaff from Countrywide rather grudgingly if you remove all haylage, but having lost 50kg last month he really needs a bit more than this.

I am waiting for the Baileys feedline to open so I can ring them and find out how much starch Outshine has in it, and the other option is equijewel which he's had before so fingers crossed should eat it. 

Are there any other low starch, high fibre conditioning feeds I have missed? At the moment equijewel is winning over oushine because of the starch levels (minimal in equijewel). Alfa-a oil no good as sends him sky-high, can't see the point in something like happy hoof when he's on the chaff he already has and it's designed for good-doers anyway.


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## TGM (15 December 2008)

Dodson &amp; Horrell's ERS Pellets are less than 7% starch and contain 13.5 MJDE/kg, so would be good for a horse that needs to gain condition.  Might be worth ringing them to see if they would be suitable for your boy.

I know Saracen say that the starch levels in the Equijewel are minimal, but I have read elsewhere that it is 18%, so might be worth be checking with Saracen direct to find out exactly how much starch it contains if you want to compare it with Outshine.

What Winergy was he on - was it the Medium?  Just want to get an idea of what starch level he was on originally - the Medium is 14% starch.


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## SpottedCat (15 December 2008)

It was medium - we didn't change it because vet said it was ok given workload (eventing) and to minimise stress on the gut given everything else he was having!

As it is since he now won't eat the stuff, it seems sensible to go for something as low in starch as possible? 

I got the equijewel figure of 'minimal' from the Saracen website. The comparision with outshine is (all figures are outshine first then equijewel):

DE: 24 vs 15 MJ/kg
Protein: 13 vs 12.5 %
Oil: 26 vs 17.5%
Fibre: 8 vs 13 %
Starch: ? vs minimal
Ash 7 vs ? %

Where have you seen that it is 18%? Just have a feeling that if the Saracen website says minimal, the feedline will probably say the same?


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## SpottedCat (15 December 2008)

ERS pellets look good actually - thanks for that, higher fibre than the outshine, which is useful, and I can then add oil from the supermarket which is rather cheaper than outshine!

ETA it is also significantly cheaper than either of the other two I was looking at, thanks TGM, v useful. 

I have to say though, my god there are a lot of feeds on the market, not just diff suppliers, but within each supplier, no wonder new owners get so blinking confused! I'd been through all the major feed suppliers websites this morning and still missed the ERS pellets.


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## TGM (15 December 2008)

It was something I read on another forum - so may very well be incorrect, but worth asking Saracen if they can give you an actual figure rather than the vague 'minimal' statement!


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## SpottedCat (15 December 2008)

Just spoke to someone v helpful at D&amp;H - ERS pellets are designed for racehorses which tie-up so totally inappropriate in this case as way too much energy! Got a good sensible recommendation from them though - to try him on the ultimate balancer, high fibre nuts and then if he needs more energy staypower cubes next season. All lower starch than the winergy, which is interesting. 

Right, on to the next feed company!


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## Maggie2 (15 December 2008)

I'm sure they gave me the starch levels in EJ once but I can't remember, but I have used the EJ with excellent results, better than Outshine for those I fed it to.


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## actionbarbie (15 December 2008)

I have found that Fibrebeet (made by the Speedibeat people) is excellent. It can be soaked in hot water, and is made from fibre with some unmolassed sugar beet. V palatable but didn't make my mare go mad (as starch and sugar feeds do).

Good luck!


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## SpottedCat (15 December 2008)

I've used EJ before too, and it worked well, I don't think just fibre/sugar beet will cut it in this case. The low starch is due to ulcers, not because anything (aside from alfa-a) sends him loopy. 

I wouldn't normally think a balancer was needed, he's always done perfectly fine without, but he looks dreadful ATM up close, and his body has been through a lot over the last couple of months, so I can see the rationale behind wanting to make sure he has a bit of a vit/mineral boost. This is the horse which used to Novice event off half a scoop of pony nuts a day, and he's really lost interest in food which is unlike him.


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## TGM (15 December 2008)

Glad they were able to give you some useful suggestions - interesting that the Staypower is lower starch than Winergy Medium - it is a shame they don't put the actual starch content of all their feeds on the website, so you can actually compare them with other feeds!

As regards the ERS Pellets, a friend of mine is using them on a couple of poor doers (non racehorses) with great results and no adverse effect on temperament.  They contain the same amount of energy as the Baileys Topline Cubes she was using before, but less starch, so they can be used successfully for non racehorses, even if they are not the perfect solution for your boy!

ETA: Just thought, has he been put on any probiotic since the antibiotic treatment - might be helpful if the gut flora have been disrupted.  Is it worth talking to your vet to see if he thinks it will help?


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## kerilli (15 December 2008)

SC, definitely try Bailey's, i've found them really excellent. mine love Outshine, it is very palatable... no idea if it's low in starch enough for your lad though.


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## SpottedCat (15 December 2008)

Just spoke to Baileys and they also recommended a balancer but coupled with outshine introduced gradually because the oil content can make droppings loose (which is the last thing he needs at the moment). Their balancer has a lower starch level but needs to be fed at a higher rate than the D&amp;H so I think broadly speaking they are much of a muchness.

Re the ERS pellets - because he is usually such a good doer, that was the rationale behind not giving them to him - she thought they'd make him fat in the long run!

I am  waiting to  speak to the vets about a probiotic - we had him on tuffrock foal plus to help but it, er, hasn't. Biotal gold is the recommended supplement for ulcer horses according to the vets, and I want to check this is the right thing to give him. The D&amp;H ultimate balancer has probiotics in it, so it may be that I will be doubling up if I use that feed and go for a probiotic too, which seems silly. Vet did not want him on a probiotic during the antibiotics, and thought after about a week off them he should have recovered to normal, but he hasn't.


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## Maggie2 (15 December 2008)

Did D and H tell you the starch level in their HF cubes?  Only curious as Winergy Medium, according to their website, is 14% starch, I had the idea that D and H HF were 15%?

That would make them very comparable, and depend then on how much a day you fed of them, say 2kg a day of HF cubes would be more than 1kg Winergy and vice versa.

Although I appreciate that you can't feed the Winergy as he no longer favours it, one of mine doesn't love it either but does so well on so little I persevere!


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## SpottedCat (15 December 2008)

No, they didn't, in fact they weren't recommending theirs specifically, just that he may need a high fibre nut as well - since their ultimate balancer is 12% starch and staypower cubes are 10% I'd be hard pushed to believe their HF nuts were 15% - will check in feed store. 

He literally will not touch the winergy now - he used to love it, but he won't even take it from my hand! He wasn't on much of it, half a scoop twice a day.

I suspect a month on a balancer followed by a reassessment is the way to go. Still, more feedlines to speak to....


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## K27 (15 December 2008)

Have you considered feeding a slow release competition feed which is high oil, high fibre, I use Spillers Slow release energy cubes and they are very very low starch too.  Great for putting on condition.  also Linseed Oil is good for putting on condition too.

Baileys also do a mix that has a content that is very similar if you prefer to feed Baileys feeds.


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## K27 (15 December 2008)

I also meant to add that in the past I've given mine Protexin Bio Premium probiotic and its always worked really really well. Can recommend it.


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## SpottedCat (15 December 2008)

Right, ring round finished, and it looks  like TopSpec have the edge as they do both a balancer and a conditioning cube which is totally cereal grain free, so starch levels as low as they could reasonably be really! They have a built in probiotic, the levels of balancer remain the same and hopefully this will sort him out and get his diet back on track.

Off to the vets now to pick up something which should clear up the loose droppings too, poor pony.


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## TGM (15 December 2008)

I must say, although I have never used their products, TopSpec do seem to have a very good feeding system sorted these days - was very impressed when I last looked at their website.  Lots of flexibility to suit most horses I think.  I just wish they would put all the full ingredients, starch levels and DEs on their website for every product!

Hope your boy is better soon!


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## SpottedCat (15 December 2008)

I asked about that - apparently they don't because other people rip them off and it happened so much they pulled the info. They are sending me info in the post.

I used TopSpec really effectively on Twiggy, so they are a company I am happy to go back to. By telling me the weights I needed to feed, I have worked out that they are no more expensive than feeding any of the other balancers but are cereal grain free which is the key thing for me really. As far as I can see, most things I'd feed by eye, but with balancers unless you feed the recommended weight it's pretty pointless spending the money on them.

They reckon once he's back up and normal weight/eating patterns again then he should be fine on just the balancer. An added advantage is that his loaner's boss is sponsored by them, so she may be able to get her hands on some at a lower price....


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## TGM (15 December 2008)

I can't quite see the point about not putting their ingredients on the website for fear of being copied, because the ingredients must surely be listed on the packaging, and if you were keen enough to want to produce Top Spec imitations you would just go down to the feed merchants and write down the info off the labels anyway!  It is not just a gripe with TS - Winergy, Spillers and Allen &amp; Page don't list their ingredients on their website, whilst Baileys and D&amp;H do.  It just makes it so much easier to compare products, especially if horses are intolerant to certain ingredients.

Anyway, gone a bit off-topic, but fingers crossed your boy is back to normal soon!


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## HollyP (15 December 2008)

Can you try him on some pink powder I think you can do an intensive course which lasts 30 days, my mare is doing so well on it (that and shes no longer in pain!)


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## Walrus (15 December 2008)

Spillers Response Slow Release Cubes are 11 MJ/kg Energy and only 12% starch, if it's getting him to eat the quantity of Winergy due to it being long fibre based then maybe a cube would help.


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## SpottedCat (15 December 2008)

Walrus - nothing to do with quantity, he just won't touch it! 

Thanks everyone, I think TopSpec has the edge for me.


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## MerryMaker (15 December 2008)

I would imagine he now associates it with anti biotics and thinks, eewwwwww not touching that! Horses are funny like that! Maybe a cube would help, Slow release cubes were fab for my mare tho she's on the winergy now for various reasons, she did really well on them. Nutty as a fruitcake, this one, and they didn't wind her up at all. Good luck with her!


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## CrazyMare (15 December 2008)

Really interesting thread this - think TopSpec has the edge for me too SC. My mare has lost lots of weight on box rest and looks ribby


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## SpottedCat (15 December 2008)

Well pony approves of topspec and nearly took my arm off to get to it, so is back to his usual miserable self over feed, which is nice (if slightly dangerous) to see!


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## lucym (15 December 2008)

hiya
my boy has just had 4 episodes of colic and the vet deduced it was due to a diet too high in starch and sugar
so he is now on alfalfa oatinol, equilibra and allen and page calm and condition.
i have spoken to the people that manufacture both the equilibra and oatinol and they have ben so helpful, there are also two other products they make, all low starch.
might be worth a look, their website is http://www.gwfnutrition.com/
i dont know the ins and outs of your horse, but might be worth a try,- sorry if you haev already crossed out this option!!





PM me if you want, horse feed seems to have become a favourite subject of mine with my neds problems


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## Maggie2 (15 December 2008)

Sounds good!  I always ask 'exactly' what is low starch when someone tells me that, as their perception of low and mine do not always tally.  I asked GW about one of the Equilibra range and it was 36%.

Not my idea of low starch.


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## ChocoCornflake (16 December 2008)

Have been feeding 'Copra Meal'/'Cool Stance' from Stance Equine now for about 6 weeks, and I must say it has absolutely exceeded all expectations as a low starch conditioning feed!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




It is being fed to an advanced dressage horse with a medium workload, who previously was ribby, had a pretty poor topline and was very neurotic. (was on Baileys Outshine before incidently  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 )
Now 6 weeks down the line the horse is looking absolutely amazing, his coat is soooo shiny and he has just put on so much condition I cannot believe it! He also seems more laid back, he still is 'edgy' but this is just him, but he does seem to be much less excitable and explosive.
Here is the website : http://www.stanceglobal.com.au/Staging/Equine/DynamicPage.aspx?EntityId=103231
It is very low in starch compared to other conditioning feeds, so I would always recommend it for horses who need condition but without the associated silliness


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## JaneB (16 December 2008)

Don't forget to check recommended feeding levels when comparing percentages of individual nutrients.  OS and EJ are both supplements so may have higher oil or starch % levels but are designed to be fed in small quantities.  Same with balancers.


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