# Loanee won't give my horse back



## jr286 (28 June 2011)

Hello all, 

I was wondering if any of you could help me. I put my horse out on loan to a local lady around 3 years ago now. We agreed on a 'permanent' loan home and i still have the contract and passport of the horse.
However, she will not let us visit him on the yard and has threatened to call the police if we go on the yard as we would be trespassing!! 
I have attempted to terminate the contract, but she won't allow us on to the yard to collect him.
We met up and she agreed to buy him from us, we have this in writing. However, she will not answer her phone or emails and has changed her number before to avoid me! 
She has also sold on the tack he came with without asking us first! 

She said the only way we will get him back or get money from her is to take her to court, but I simply can't afford this. 

Has any one got any suggestions on what I can do?


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## s4sugar (28 June 2011)

Turn up with a trailer & copies of the contract & let her call the police.


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## Mrs B (28 June 2011)

Hmmm. Maybe I'm a cynical old bat, but reading your post made me wonder if she has not just sold your tack, but your horse too - possibly quite a while ago.

Do you know what yard he supposed to be on? And if you do, could you ask someone to pay it a visit, incognito?

Or you could try posting his details on here and see if anyone's seen him?


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## jr286 (28 June 2011)

Thankfully I drive past the yard on the way to work and he him in the field. He's fine and she looks after him very well, she just seems absolutely crazy. 
Money isn't an issue for her either, she drives an aston martin! 

The trouble with turning up with a trailer is all his tack and rugs - I have none so wouldn't be able to ride him etc! She has the whole yard on side, not sure how but the owners and all the other liveries there are backing her so I feel this would be difficult on my own. 

I appreciate the comments though!


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## MHOL (28 June 2011)

jr286 said:



			Thankfully I drive past the yard on the way to work and he him in the field. He's fine and she looks after him very well, she just seems absolutely crazy. 
Money isn't an issue for her either, she drives an aston martin! 

The trouble with turning up with a trailer is all his tack and rugs - I have none so wouldn't be able to ride him etc! She has the whole yard on side, not sure how but the owners and all the other liveries there are backing her so I feel this would be difficult on my own. 

I appreciate the comments though!
		
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www.missinghorsesonloan.co.uk or email us missinghorsesonloan@gmail.com will need to see the contract and passport, can you email us a copy and a full story?


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## shelley8697 (28 June 2011)

You say your horse was given over on 'permanent loan'  is there any clauses in the contract to say you can have him back?

I don't wish to be negative, but the term 'permanent loan' is a contradiction in its self.  No loan should be permanent in my mind...  you either buy/sell or loan for a term agreed.....


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## jr286 (28 June 2011)

There is a get out period of 3 months for each party. We asked for him back or for her to buy him and she said she'd buy him (in writing) but is now refusing to do either. The loan was agreed for the duration of his life, but our circumstances have changed and we either need to sell him to her or have him back


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## FMM (28 June 2011)

If you have used the word permanent, then that means permanent!
Not sure why you now want to sell him to her or get him back - but it sounds a bit hokey to me.  If she is looking after him well and the loan is permanent, then I am afraid I can't see how you can now demand him back.
Kind of depends on the contract.


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## shelley8697 (28 June 2011)

I would contact the yard owner.... make them aware that you intend to collect the horse as you haven't received payment.

Put it in writing stating your reasons and a date and time to collect and copy the loanee in.  Do recorded delivery - with a signature!

The stick to it take people with you for witnesses.  If they call the police, they have no leg to stand on.... in fact when you get there, offer to call the police to ensure no laws are broken!

I'm sure she will either give in or pay!

Good luck....


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## jr286 (28 June 2011)

Well, it is a loan at the end of the day,  and I was 16 when I gave him up and now have the finances and ability to take him on again. She said she wanted to buy him too, this was discussed and written down. I guess the biggest issue is we can't even see him and visit him - i'm sure you can understand my concern here.


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## brighteyes (28 June 2011)

Why do you want thim back?  If she is willing to buy, just sell.


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## shelley8697 (28 June 2011)

jr286 said:



			There is a get out period of 3 months for each party. We asked for him back or for her to buy him and she said she'd buy him (in writing) but is now refusing to do either. The loan was agreed for the duration of his life, but our circumstances have changed and we either need to sell him to her or have him back
		
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  I agree with FMM, but this changes the 'loan' and therefore the OP is entitled to ask for her horse back.....  Especially as there has been an agreement to sell - in writing...


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## Bethie (28 June 2011)

Permanent means ongoing, not for a fixed term, the opening poster hasn't gifted the horse to the loaner!   Take up MHOL's offer of help.


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## jr286 (28 June 2011)

Do you have any suggestions on either how to get the loanee to be more obliging? She signed the paper agreeing to buy him but now refuses to speak to us, so essentially has stolen a 'commodity' from us. As much as I love horses, if the same situation happened with a car or house, the police would get involved, but they don't care.


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## jr286 (28 June 2011)

Shelley, the owner of the yard are her grandparents. I feel if I did this they would lock the gates or move the horse. It is a very sensitive situation and if we turned up with a trailer, there would definitely be physical barriers to get through. It seems like a good plan though, thankyou


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## jrp204 (28 June 2011)

It is still a loan, with a 3 month notice period. The horse has not been gifted, sold or anything other than LOAN. If the owner wants him back and has given notice she has every right to have it back, alongside the tack he went with. 
Adding to Shelly, I would also send a copy of the letter to the loanee alongside the request for the return of the tack or monies to the value of the gear. Make sure you keep copies and send them recorded. When you go to collect the horse make sure you take a few friends, act professional and don't rise to any grief given.


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## SusieT (28 June 2011)

Go and collect him with a trailer and his passport, ideally in the dead of night but if thats not possible go during the day having warned teh police you are going to reclaim your property. Do you really want this owner to have him ?


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## shelley8697 (28 June 2011)

If you have a signed statement from her agreeing to purchase the horse and she has not paid, then I would start a small claims court summons, it doesn't cost a lot... you may find that she will pay when she recieves it in the post....  if not then the judge 'should' find in your favour as you have the contact and sale agreement in writing and she has simply not paid!  You can do it on line - very easy!

It not just for business users - 

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdot...8790&r.l2=1074453392&r.l3=1083910795&type=PIP


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## shelley8697 (28 June 2011)

jr286 said:



			Shelley, the owner of the yard are her grandparents. I feel if I did this they would lock the gates or move the horse. It is a very sensitive situation and if we turned up with a trailer, there would definitely be physical barriers to get through. It seems like a good plan though, thankyou
		
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Might be still worth contacting them - they may not be aware of the situation????  Most 'normal grand/parents/people'  would make her pay or give it back if they are in full knowledge of the situation!

I certainly would and I would give her a kick up the a**e if she were my grand daughter!


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## StrawberryFish (28 June 2011)

I have 2 horses out on 'full loan' this means it is for an indeterminate period, so basically a 'permanent loan' unless they don't want them or I want them back. The horses cannot be sold on. I have a full and legal contract with both, of which we both have copies and which were signed by 2 witnesses

If you have a contract, and you did it properly (signed by witnesses etc) then surely if you give the right amount of notice, the horse is yours to take, if they won't allow it then can you call the police? I'm not sure how that side works though.

Hope you get your horse back xx


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## pedilia (28 June 2011)

jr286 said:



			The trouble with turning up with a trailer is all his tack and rugs - I have none so wouldn't be able to ride him etc!
		
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If your main concern is getting the horse back, forget the tack and rugs, you can deal with that later.
My horse was stolen while on loan, all his tack/rugs had been sold, that was the least of my concerns, I tracked him down, got him back and eventually got him new stuff. If you have a watertight loan contract you van probably get your stuff back, my loan contract was proof to the police and courts that she had stolen my belongings.


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## hairycob (28 June 2011)

Take up MHOLs offer of help. Concentrate on getting the horse back & then small claims court for the value of tack & rugs etc not returned.


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## Tinypony (28 June 2011)

You were given good advice on the first page, contact Missing Horses on Loan.


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## jr286 (28 June 2011)

thankyou very much for your help everyone  made me feel a lot less helpless!


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## browbrow (28 June 2011)

Turn up with trailer , about thirty of your mates and take the court THEN tell her to TAKE you to court


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## Zebedee (28 June 2011)

I'm confused here, that the OP seems to have ignored both the initial post from MHOL, & the subsequent posts urging them to follow up their offer of help.

OP. If you want to get your horse back let MHOL help you, because they're the ones with the experience in doing just that, regardless of how 'sensitive' the situation may be.


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## jr286 (28 June 2011)

i've emailed them, I did a few hours ago.


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## waggerz (28 June 2011)

In my experience when a friend had the same problem. 

The best thing is to contact a lawyer, take the contract, all details, the worth of the horse and tack etc. 

If the lawyer agrees, then you contact the police, they may just supply an officer to come with you to take your horse incase she causes trouble or you may require a warrant to enter the owners land. (this is what my friend had to do). just do not do anything illegal yourself as this could jepordise things. also you need to make sure you know where your going to take him and that the place is up to standards.


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## MHOL (29 June 2011)

jr286 said:



			i've emailed them, I did a few hours ago.
		
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But you haven't replied with the stuff i asked for??? I can't advise you until i see the loan agreement and passport, please email me asap


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## YasandCrystal (29 June 2011)

FMM said:



			If you have used the word permanent, then that means permanent!
Not sure why you now want to sell him to her or get him back - but it sounds a bit hokey to me.  If she is looking after him well and the loan is permanent, then I am afraid I can't see how you can now demand him back.
Kind of depends on the contract.
		
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I agree with this. Permanent loan is just that. If I had a horse on permanent loan - to me that would mean I have the horse for it's life and unless I mistreated it or a pts decision had to be made the horse is mine in all but legal ownership.

You say 'your circumstances have changed' well I would say go buy a horse; you can't now demand money for a horse that was loaned for life just because you want a horse. Put the boot on the other foot; you wouldn't want it done to you would you?
People like you are the reason I would NEVER loan a horse. Sorry if I sound harsh, but I think it's the loanee getting a raw deal here - no wonder the yard are on her side!


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## jrp204 (29 June 2011)

Whether a loan is 'permenent' or not it is still a loan with loaner retaining ownership of the horse, as an 'owner' i would expect to have a say in what happened to my animal and to be able to have it back. The horse was not 'gifted' or sold. The loanee has no rights over the horse as she does not technically own it.
If you take a horse on loan, of any sort you have to expect that at some stage the owner may want it back. If you don't want this to happen you BUY your own horse.


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## YasandCrystal (29 June 2011)

Maybe I am being naive, but I thought the idea of a 'permanent loan' would be that with certain extreme exceptions like for example the ill health or death of the loanee or the horse becoming aggressive or unmanageble that the horse remained on loan for it's life.

I thought this was the type of loan that charities and rescue centres use and that the only time they would ask for a horse back was if the loanee was neglecting to care properly for the horse, not because they decided they wanted to loan it out for example elsewhere or have it at their centre.

Otherwise why not just have a 'loan' agreement. The word 'permanent' stands for nothing if the loaner can simply decide they want the horse back with notice through no fault of the loanee. Surely this OP should have had a 'full loan' rather than a 'permanent loan'?


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## jrp204 (29 June 2011)

Charities 'permenant loaning' will still maintain ownership and can take the horse back for whatever reason as it is theirs.
I agree, there is little point in putting the permenant bit into any agreement, a loan is a loan regardless of the timescale it is over.


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## wytsend (29 June 2011)

I had a similar situation some 3 years ago.

Gave the agreed notice period on the contract.  Telephoned to say which day I would collect the horse, followed in writing.   Denied entry to premises...previously no problem...with loanee now demanding livery charges !!!

Called the Police at once , explained situation,  Sergeant & PC turned up, escorted us to the yard & requested we be allowed to remove our property.
They agreed the contract was in no doubt a loan, that the proper notice had been given as agreed.

Loanee turns funny with the law,  Yard freeholder(owner) is called to open the gates.  Police enforced our right to remove the horse & informed loanee any further resistance would treated very seriously.

MHOL will assist you if you are in doubts as to procedure,  we were not so proceeded as outlined above.

My advice iss act quickly otherwise your horse could just disappear and you will be in a whole new ball game.

Minor point... loanee  has horse without passport.. this is illegal.


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## Queenbee (29 June 2011)

jr286 said:



			Shelley, the owner of the yard are her grandparents. I feel if I did this they would lock the gates or move the horse. It is a very sensitive situation and if we turned up with a trailer, there would definitely be physical barriers to get through. It seems like a good plan though, thankyou
		
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Personally I would, drive there, physical barriers would not stop me, bolt croppers to padlocks, landrover through gate, I would get there and get my horse,  once the horse was back in my posession I would then deal with the consequences.  But then that is just me, and if anyone stood between me and Ebony they would be lucky that the only things damaged were inanimate objects.  

Perhaps not much help or advice in my post but that is how I would handle it, I would be bl00dy furious.  

On a more helpful note, I would write to her informing her that you withdraw your offer for her to purchase the horse, send it recorded delivery and then turn up 2 days later with the help of a few extra people.  Just brave it, turn up unnanounced, drive right in there and if necesarry walk/ ride bareback out of the yard.  Tell them that you are willing to reconsider a purchase, but that they pay cash on collection of the horse. (although if it was me they would not get their hands on it!)


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## Luci07 (29 June 2011)

While there has been a lot of well meaning advice on here, no one (including myself) with the exception of MHOL has been able to offer any CLARITY on your absolute legal position. You have started the process with MHOL, I would ask what the legal process is and then follow it. Whatever the original agreement, it is voided because you then changed the contract and that is in writing (now that bit is legally correct). You therefore have a new contract whereby the loanee has stated she will purchase the horse. The original contract is voided because you BOTH changed the terms and agreed to a different contract.

So my priority would be - get absolute clarity with MHOL who does know their stuff, get legal clarification (BHS helpline? legal insurance on  your household?) and then see how to go. I would suggest that, if the best course is to come and reclaim, that you do tell the police first so that is logged. 

And for those who are not sympathetic about taking a horse back that was out on loan - tough! the horse was not sold, the lender did not have to fork out any money and the risk they take is that the horse could go back.


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## jr286 (29 June 2011)

yes, thankyou very much lucie. I'm getting copies of the original contract, the new paper with her agreeing to buy him and his passport to MHOL. There is also the option for the smalls claim thing to look into. 
Thanks again for your advice everyone.


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## Tinseltoes (29 June 2011)

YasandCrystal said:



			I agree with this. Permanent loan is just that. If I had a horse on permanent loan - to me that would mean I have the horse for it's life and unless I mistreated it or a pts decision had to be made the horse is mine in all but legal ownership.

You say 'your circumstances have changed' well I would say go buy a horse; you can't now demand money for a horse that was loaned for life just because you want a horse. Put the boot on the other foot; you wouldn't want it done to you would you?
People like you are the reason I would NEVER loan a horse. Sorry if I sound harsh, but I think it's the loanee getting a raw deal here - no wonder the yard are on her side!
		
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YasandCrystal said:



			Maybe I am being naive, but I thought the idea of a 'permanent loan' would be that with certain extreme exceptions like for example the ill health or death of the loanee or the horse becoming aggressive or unmanageble that the horse remained on loan for it's life.

I thought this was the type of loan that charities and rescue centres use and that the only time they would ask for a horse back was if the loanee was neglecting to care properly for the horse, not because they decided they wanted to loan it out for example elsewhere or have it at their centre.

Otherwise why not just have a 'loan' agreement. The word 'permanent' stands for nothing if the loaner can simply decide they want the horse back with notice through no fault of the loanee. Surely this OP should have had a 'full loan' rather than a 'permanent loan'?
		
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Funny situation to be in. Ive had my section A pony here on loan for last 6 years and I have a contract saying on loan until payed for (no dates  or such). Owner previously threatened to take the pony,but never has been to see her in the 6 years ive had her.Solicitor told me what she can and cant do.The passport is suppost to be with the horse/pony.  

Im not sure where you stand as loanee isnt neglecting the horse or anything like that. Permanant loan means exactly that.


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## jr286 (29 June 2011)

If you take a horse on loan, of any sort you have to expect that at some stage the owner MAY want it back. If you don't want this to happen you BUY your own horse.


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## Tinseltoes (29 June 2011)

Im lucky cause I have the section A who I have on loan till payed for & is here for life and then I own a cobby,whose MINE outright -also here for life.


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## jr286 (29 June 2011)

great


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## GingerCat (29 June 2011)

This post is also running in another thread and I answered in there but you did not reply.

My query is that you say you offered to sell the horse to the loanee, which makes me think that you have no real desire to have this particular horse back.
Did you offer the horse for sale at a fair price?
3 years is a long time to loan a horse and I'm sure that the loanee is very fond of it. My friend had a horse on loan for 7 years, she got him as a barely broken youngster, very green. He's now a well schooled allrounder, and has been successfully shown by my daughter for the past two seasons. His owner got wind of this and told my friend that she wants to sell him and offered him to my friend for a ridiculous sum...a real cheek as it's my friend and my daughter that has turned him into the cracking animal he is today! 
It was obvious that his owner was just trying to make a profit from my friend's attachment to the horse 

I know that at the end of the day you are the owner and the horse does belong to you..but the loanee must have feelings for this horse and feelings cannot just be switched on and off!
I think you need to take those feelings into consideration and to be honest about your reasons for wanting the horse back if you are to come to any sort of agreement in all this.


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## jr286 (29 June 2011)

No not at all, we've been very reasonable and offered him well below his market price and within a time scale of 6 months. This isn't me trying to scam anyone, i'm now at university and just need to secure this permanently one way or the other.


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## GingerCat (29 June 2011)

In that case I wish you all the best in resolving this situation which I'm sure is distressing to both parties.

Is there anyone who can mediate for you? 

I know someone has already said that they had a similar situation where the police intervened, but it is certainly not usual for them to become involved in this sort of situation 

Good Luck x


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## Dry Rot (29 June 2011)

I agree with wytsend.

I am not a lawyer, but doesn't there have to be "consideration" (i.e. something of value changing hands, usually money) to form a contract?

So, in my opinion, the loan is simply a loan and the word "permanent" is the opposite of "temporary", simply indicating a long term loan of unspecified duration. Because no money has changed hands, the loanee loses nothing if the loan is terminated. She has no rights other than possession of the horse until the owner decides otherwise.

The agreement to sell is not a contract either as no money has changed hands and no price has been agreed. It is quite ridiculous to suggest that someone can be held to have agreed to a purchase/sale if no price has been specified!

As for getting the horse back, I am sure the police would accompany the owner if they are made aware of the problem and it is explained that the owner fears things might get physical and she fears for her safety. The role of the police in this situation would simply be to maintain the peace, which is what they are paid to do.


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## noodle_ (29 June 2011)

jr286 said:



			The trouble with turning up with a trailer is all his tack and rugs - I have none so wouldn't be able to ride him etc!!
		
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you want the horse or the tack???




sod the tack - go get your horse!!


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## Luci07 (30 June 2011)

Dry Rot said:



			I agree with wytsend.

I am not a lawyer, but doesn't there have to be "consideration" (i.e. something of value changing hands, usually money) to form a contract?

So, in my opinion, the loan is simply a loan and the word "permanent" is the opposite of "temporary", simply indicating a long term loan of unspecified duration. Because no money has changed hands, the loanee loses nothing if the loan is terminated. She has no rights other than possession of the horse until the owner decides otherwise.

The agreement to sell is not a contract either as no money has changed hands and no price has been agreed. It is quite ridiculous to suggest that someone can be held to have agreed to a purchase/sale if no price has been specified!

As for getting the horse back, I am sure the police would accompany the owner if they are made aware of the problem and it is explained that the owner fears things might get physical and she fears for her safety. The role of the police in this situation would simply be to maintain the peace, which is what they are paid to do.
		
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I am not a lawyer either but did study some contract law as part of another course years ago. The one thing I can remember if that a contract is voided if one person seeks to amend it. In this case, the horse was offered for sale, the other person accepted (in writing). This then terminates the original contract. 

However, you should note Police are not keen on being involved in what would be viewed as a civil matter and would ask for a lot of proof before attending this. You have to see it from their view - if all they get is a call with no evidence to back it up - where does that leave them? I am for notifying the police and seeking their advice but would not rely on them turning up.

MHOL is still the best option with the best experience and advice to give. Logically, OP must follow the correct legal route for the shortest response. I know our knee jerk reaction is just to wade in and take the horse back, but honestly, she could be sued for trespass and theft! or put herself in personal danger.


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## MHOL (30 June 2011)

sharon1959 said:



			Funny situation to be in. Ive had my section A pony here on loan for last 6 years and I have a contract saying on loan until payed for (no dates  or such). Owner previously threatened to take the pony,but never has been to see her in the 6 years ive had her.Solicitor told me what she can and cant do.The passport is suppost to be with the horse/pony.  

Im not sure where you stand as loanee isnt neglecting the horse or anything like that. Permanant loan means exactly that.
		
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 A Passport is not proof of ownership, a receipt is, a passport is documentation to be kept with the horse. A permanent loan can be retrieved so long as there was a contract. the word Loan means you lent it, other wise its free to a good home and a receipt issued stating ownership has passed on and the passport can be updated. 

Anyone putting a horse on loan should notify the passport office that the horse is on loan and they will make sure it cannot be updated, also associate yourself on NED and flag the horse as on loan.


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## Tinseltoes (30 June 2011)

MHOL said:



			A Passport is not proof of ownership, a receipt is, a passport is documentation to be kept with the horse. A permanent loan can be retrieved so long as there was a contract. the word Loan means you lent it, other wise its free to a good home and a receipt issued stating ownership has passed on and the passport can be updated. 

Anyone putting a horse on loan should notify the passport office that the horse is on loan and they will make sure it cannot be updated, also associate yourself on NED and flag the horse as on loan.
		
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She refuses to give me the passport and has constantly lied about the ownership of the pony,saying she is the owner but then when I asked for the passport she says pony belongs to someone else.This woman was contstant in threatening to take the pony back if I didnt pay for the pony,contract only says " ON LOAN TILL PAYED FOR" there are NO to pay by dates and the worrying thing her changing her story & lying to me all the time about ownership of the pony,this woman might or might no be the real owner..So I do not have the passport and have no idea who its issued with either. No contact from the woman since.Horrible situation to be in.Had the pony 6 years.


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## PollyP99 (30 June 2011)

The word permenant used here does not mean 'for life' just indetermined period, a loan is a loan and as many have said the owner can ALWAYS take the horse back.  If you dont want to find yourself in this situation dont loan BUY.

I have a horse on loan, it is stated as permenant and no time specified but I know the owner will want her beloved back one day.

Don't forget by loaning we loaners have the option of sending the horse back should our circumstances change or god forbid something changes for the horse, you cant have that without the chance the owners circs can change too.  

You have to be fair in these things so to say it is permenant is just daft, it works both ways dont forget!


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## timthearab (3 July 2011)

pedilia said:



			If your main concern is getting the horse back, forget the tack and rugs, you can deal with that later.
My horse was stolen while on loan, all his tack/rugs had been sold, that was the least of my concerns, I tracked him down, got him back and eventually got him new stuff. If you have a watertight loan contract you van probably get your stuff back, my loan contract was proof to the police and courts that she had stolen my belongings.
		
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My horse went out on loan with tack, rugs etc.  when he came home all i had was the horse, that was enough for me, people kindly helped out with rugs and tack, u can buy cheap enough tack from ebay. 
Concentrate on getting the horse first and formost, then tack, rugs etc afterwards


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## ILuvCowparsely (7 July 2011)

on reading the situation it apears your on your own no help

  I would go and find a solicitor  ( i had to do this once )   get him or her on your side  

ask them to write a letter   and say if i dont here from you by such and such a day   I reserve the right to take matters further 


  if they dont respond take them to small claims   cost around £  150    then sol fees  and if you win they have to pay all.  Sounds  like unless you get help from MHOL   you need to take this route

 if the horse is being neglected  you can get Horse Welfare involved  makes your case stronger  if not then u need to do one of the other 2 things  the longer you leave it the harder it is

 here is the page you need for small claims  




http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/






........................................................


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## corrie153 (7 July 2011)

this kind of happened to me. Put my horse on loan for a year while i was away and I gave the loanee the months notice like we had agreeded in the contract and when it came to me coming to collect him she either didnt answer her phone or kept putting it off. I eventually went to her yard while she was at work and took him from the field. When I had him safely home, went back and after a few empty handed trips I got my tack and rugs back.


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## Luci07 (8 July 2011)

Where are you with this? have you managed to resolve it?


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## MHOL (8 July 2011)

No it hasn't been resolved yet, we need all the info to look at this objectively, will post an update when we can


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## The_snoopster (9 July 2011)

To be honest I feel I shall be going against the grain on this just from what I have read, OP you put your horse out on "permanent" loan. Now if someone puts a horse out on "permanent" loan like others have said unless the loaner is either somehow abusing or neglecting your horse, which you have stated is not the case as you can see he is being treated well as you are going past the yard it makes the term "permanant" useless. 
If I had loaned your horse with the agreement it would be permanant I also would say no to you, when you loaned out his horse maybe you should of thought about wether you wanted it back at some point and done yearly contracts. And maybe the small claims court may see it in the same light, this person has a contract which you signed saying she could have the horse for ever because thats what "permanent" actually means.


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## MHOL (9 July 2011)

The_snoopster said:



			To be honest I feel I shall be going against the grain on this just from what I have read, OP you put your horse out on "permanent" loan. Now if someone puts a horse out on "permanent" loan like others have said unless the loaner is either somehow abusing or neglecting your horse, which you have stated is not the case as you can see he is being treated well as you are going past the yard it makes the term "permanant" useless. 
If I had loaned your horse with the agreement it would be permanant I also would say no to you, when you loaned out his horse maybe you should of thought about wether you wanted it back at some point and done yearly contracts. And maybe the small claims court may see it in the same light, this person has a contract which you signed saying she could have the horse for ever because thats what "permanent" actually means.
		
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Its still a loan, it does not mean you have signed your rights away or given the horse away.


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## henryhorn (9 July 2011)

I can see both sides, you felt you had found your horse a permanent loving home, she has spent money and time on caring for him on that basis. You feel because he is still in your ownership she should hand him back.
I would advise writing to her by signed for post, stating that under the terms of the contract you are giving her notice of requiring your horse back within the agreed limit, and that you will be giving her until then to purchase him for x amount. (do be fair here!) , and that if these conditions are not complied with you will use the SCCourt to deal with the problem.
A cheap way of getting legal advice is to join the Country Landowners Assoc, it costs around £100 but they have top lawyers advising you and nothing else to pay. I had a chap dump 3 horses on me and then didn't pay me for three and a half years, eventually I issued a tuit on the lawyer's advice and claimed ownership. The SCC is not expensive and should I'm sure be worth your while trying. 
Do think hard however, your horse sounds settled, happy and well cared for, if it's for financial reasons you want him back, perhaps think of how she has cared for him at her own expense and deserves some sympathy..


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## The_snoopster (9 July 2011)

MHOL said:



			Its still a loan, it does not mean you have signed your rights away or given the horse away.
		
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I totally agree with that statement, but when someone usually loans their horse out on a permenant basis thats what it means unless the horse is being mistreated or abused/neglected in some way. Its not really fair on the person who has been given the horse on a permenant loan to have it taken back for no other reason than the owner wants to sell it on. The owner should of just put it out on loan with yearly contracts so the person loaning the horse knows exactly where they stand.


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## MHOL (9 July 2011)

There is more to this than is known on here, no one can justify unless they know the full facts


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## Tinseltoes (10 July 2011)

Doesnt seem fair that suddenly OP wants her horse back. If the contract hasnt been broken,ie abuse to horse,then why does she all of a sudden want him back??????? 
I can see it from the loanees view too.
I have a loan pony here with me and I dont see head or tale of her owner,(not done for neally 6 yea,and if she turned up ,shed get a ear bashing. (have on loan till payed for).


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## Luci07 (10 July 2011)

loan means loan. Also guys you keep overlooking the fact that the loaner had agreed to buy and has now changed her mind..


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## Amymay (11 July 2011)

I'm assuming that you've gone and collected your horse by now.

But if not - just go and get it.


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## Tinseltoes (11 July 2011)

tHINK THERES MORE TO THIS THAN IS BEING SAID ON HERE.Sounds complicated.


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## Luci07 (11 July 2011)

sharon1959 said:



			Doesnt seem fair that suddenly OP wants her horse back. If the contract hasnt been broken,ie abuse to horse,then why does she all of a sudden want him back??????? 
I can see it from the loanees view too.
I have a loan pony here with me and I dont see head or tale of her owner,(not done for neally 6 yea,and if she turned up ,shed get a ear bashing. (have on loan till payed for).
		
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Do you want to clarify your last point? your horse is on loan for 6 years but "on loan till paid for" - does that mean you owe the owner money for the horse then?


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## Luci07 (11 July 2011)

The_snoopster said:



			I totally agree with that statement, but when someone usually loans their horse out on a permenant basis thats what it means unless the horse is being mistreated or abused/neglected in some way. Its not really fair on the person who has been given the horse on a permenant loan to have it taken back for no other reason than the owner wants to sell it on. The owner should of just put it out on loan with yearly contracts so the person loaning the horse knows exactly where they stand.
		
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If you read the first post, you will see that the loaner had agreed to purchase the horse, then nothing happens.

Also MHOL (who does know the legalities) has stated that permanent loan doesn't mean anything - it is still a loan. There have also been numerous posts on here whereby people have queried how to ensure ownership and even a payment of £1 would secure this. I am not sympathetic as my mare went out on loan - she went to a nice woman, had no problems at all but at the end of the day, when the mare looked to be completely finished as far as work was concerned, she handed the mare back to me. Thats why she took out a loan - the ultimate responsibility lay with me. Luckily the mare seems to have come good enough to enjoy hacking again but that is irrelevant.  The benefit of a loan from the carers perspective is - no outlay and when the horse can't work any more, they can hand it back. And if someone was given a horse that was so good they could really go places with it competitively, then that is their lucky day. Why should the person who DID pay for the horse in the first place lose out? It does work both ways! The "I have put so much work into this horse and now its worth so much more" is irrelevant. If the horse looked to be so fantastic then it should have been raised - and addressed earlier.

I did have a horse on loan and was looking to buy a while ago. He had numerous issues (not just physical)  and I needed to see if we could work through them. I agreed a price up front and when the time came, the owner jacked the price up. In that instance I stuck to my guns and sent the horse back. He had numerous issues, could not actually do the job I had got him for but was brilliant on the dressage front (totally screwed up for jumping).  So I have been on the receiving end when it has gone sour as well.


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## otter2 (11 July 2011)

i think there's got to be a big piece of the puzzle missing! if it's exactly as the OP is claiming surely they would be straight to the yard to get their horse, forget anyone trying to stop them or the horse's tack and rugs!!

i think if you loan a horse out the owner and loaner should have to right to terminate the loan at any time, with notice preferably.


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## Tinseltoes (11 July 2011)

Luci07 said:



			Do you want to clarify your last point? your horse is on loan for 6 years but "on loan till paid for" - does that mean you owe the owner money for the horse then?
		
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Not exactly because there is a discrepency to whether she is actually the rightful owner,which is why CAB sent me to a solicitor.The woman was constantly lying about ownership saying she was owner,then she wasnt the owner,refuses to give passport with the pony.Been advised to not pay her anything,because of the lies.The woman has NOT been to see the pony once in the 6 years Ive had her and I havent heard from her in almost 5 1/2 years.Complicated. Whenever ive asked her for the passport,her tune changes and she says shes not the owner and that the loan agreement is void and I should rip it up.She must think Im stupid as if im going to rip the loan agreement up.I DONT THINK SO.
 -solicitor says its a valid contract.Woman was trying to pull a fast one.
why should I pay for a pony until I know who the real owner is..


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## Dizzle (11 July 2011)

I see your in Gloucestershire, yard is owned by person's grandparents... sounds just like my old yard and if it is, I would advise you to get the horse out of there ASAP, would rather not go into details in case it isn't the same yard.

Could you PM me the name of the yard?


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## jodie3 (11 July 2011)

Having been in the position of having a horse on loan with a now ex-friend who wouldn't return her can I say that it isn't always that simple to go to the yard to collect the horse?

In my case I was met with threats of violence and intimidation and the horse was promptly moved to another yard.

I'm not saying that this is the case here but if you don't get any help from police/rspca and are met with locked gates sadly there isn't always alot you can do without ending up on the wrong side of the law yourself.


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## Luci07 (11 July 2011)

sharon1959 said:



			Not exactly because there is a discrepency to whether she is actually the rightful owner,which is why CAB sent me to a solicitor.The woman was constantly lying about ownership saying she was owner,then she wasnt the owner,refuses to give passport with the pony.Been advised to not pay her anything,because of the lies.The woman has NOT been to see the pony once in the 6 years Ive had her and I havent heard from her in almost 5 1/2 years.Complicated. Whenever ive asked her for the passport,her tune changes and she says shes not the owner and that the loan agreement is void and I should rip it up.She must think Im stupid as if im going to rip the loan agreement up.I DONT THINK SO.
 -solicitor says its a valid contract.Woman was trying to pull a fast one.
why should I pay for a pony until I know who the real owner is..
		
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which puts you in a really nasty position because - in theory, someone else could well turn up claiming ownership. Maybe you could do a reverse post on this forum to try to find the real owner and bypass the woman who loaned him to you..


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## Petunia (11 July 2011)

A person who takes a horse on loan runs the risk always of the owner taking the horse back - for whatever reason.  Just because this woman is looking after the horse well makes no difference whatsoever, and whatever reason the owner wants the horse back is also neither here nor there.

Whether there is an element of sympathy for the woman loaning the horse or not is irrelevant - the owner owns the horse - a "permanent" loan is actually a pretty stupid expression and is somewhat meaningless.

You cannot simply go and take the horse back either - particularly if it means entering someone else's property - you can be sued for possible criminal damage - even if you haven't actually done anything they can make it look like you have, and then you are in trouble.   You have to make sure the law is always on your side and you behave accordingly.

I would send a letter immediately unemotionally demanding either the agreed sale price for the horse and tack within 14 days or return of the horse, or agreed collection within that time, otherwise you will either appoint solicitors for the recovery of horse or money together with costs with no further recourse to the person.  I would also say that you expect the horse to be looked after and the responsibility for that remains with them and they will be held responsible for any damage to tack or horse.

Obviously you will be advised by MHOL, but you should get into writing and put the case with a date asap to get matters moving.


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## Tinseltoes (11 July 2011)

Luci07 said:



			which puts you in a really nasty position because - in theory, someone else could well turn up claiming ownership. Maybe you could do a reverse post on this forum to try to find the real owner and bypass the woman who loaned him to you..
		
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Knowone will turn up as she doesnt know the name of where I keep her.Shes only been twice,once in pitch black & once in the day.She does not know the area as they live about 2 hours away. I think the original owner is from same place as her.
I have the gate locked and police patrol area as well. The pony isnt microchipped either,nor freezemarked.
So if she or whoever tried to say the pony belonged to them they would have to have proof pony was theirs.So you can see why.


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## The_snoopster (11 July 2011)

Luci07 said:



			If you read the first post, you will see that the loaner had agreed to purchase the horse, then nothing happens.

Also MHOL (who does know the legalities) has stated that permanent loan doesn't mean anything - it is still a loan. There have also been numerous posts on here whereby people have queried how to ensure ownership and even a payment of £1 would secure this. I am not sympathetic as my mare went out on loan - she went to a nice woman, had no problems at all but at the end of the day, when the mare looked to be completely finished as far as work was concerned, she handed the mare back to me. Thats why she took out a loan - the ultimate responsibility lay with me. Luckily the mare seems to have come good enough to enjoy hacking again but that is irrelevant.  The benefit of a loan from the carers perspective is - no outlay and when the horse can't work any more, they can hand it back. And if someone was given a horse that was so good they could really go places with it competitively, then that is their lucky day. Why should the person who DID pay for the horse in the first place lose out? It does work both ways! The "I have put so much work into this horse and now its worth so much more" is irrelevant. If the horse looked to be so fantastic then it should have been raised - and addressed earlier.

I did have a horse on loan and was looking to buy a while ago. He had numerous issues (not just physical)  and I needed to see if we could work through them. I agreed a price up front and when the time came, the owner jacked the price up. In that instance I stuck to my guns and sent the horse back. He had numerous issues, could not actually do the job I had got him for but was brilliant on the dressage front (totally screwed up for jumping).  So I have been on the receiving end when it has gone sour as well.
		
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And there in your own words is the reason why I would not loan a horse or loan out any of my horses, there are just too many grey areas. If I want a horse I go out and buy one, if I find I can no longer keep one I sell it.


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## Luci07 (11 July 2011)

The_snoopster said:



			And there in your own words is the reason why I would not loan a horse or loan out any of my horses, there are just too many grey areas. If I want a horse I go out and buy one, if I find I can no longer keep one I sell it.
		
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Afraid I would agree with you now unless it was to someone I actually knew and my mare stayed on the yard...


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## Dancing Queen (27 July 2011)

did she get her horse back?


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## Tinseltoes (27 July 2011)

Dancing Queen said:



			did she get her horse back?
		
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Dont know?????


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## sprytzer (27 July 2011)

sharon1959 said:



			Not exactly because there is a discrepency to whether she is actually the rightful owner,which is why CAB sent me to a solicitor.The woman was constantly lying about ownership saying she was owner,then she wasnt the owner,refuses to give passport with the pony.Been advised to not pay her anything,because of the lies.The woman has NOT been to see the pony once in the 6 years Ive had her and I havent heard from her in almost 5 1/2 years.Complicated. Whenever ive asked her for the passport,her tune changes and she says shes not the owner and that the loan agreement is void and I should rip it up.She must think Im stupid as if im going to rip the loan agreement up.I DONT THINK SO.
 -solicitor says its a valid contract.Woman was trying to pull a fast one.
why should I pay for a pony until I know who the real owner is..
		
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And have you not thought to check that YOU are'nt in possetion of a stolen horse, seeing as how there are so many things wrong with YOUR loan??


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## The Original Kao (27 July 2011)

GingerCat said:



			This post is also running in another thread and I answered in there but you did not reply.

My query is that you say you offered to sell the horse to the loanee, which makes me think that you have no real desire to have this particular horse back.
Did you offer the horse for sale at a fair price?
3 years is a long time to loan a horse and I'm sure that the loanee is very fond of it. My friend had a horse on loan for 7 years, she got him as a barely broken youngster, very green. He's now a well schooled allrounder, and has been successfully shown by my daughter for the past two seasons. His owner got wind of this and told my friend that she wants to sell him and offered him to my friend for a ridiculous sum...a real cheek as it's my friend and my daughter that has turned him into the cracking animal he is today! 
It was obvious that his owner was just trying to make a profit from my friend's attachment to the horse 

I know that at the end of the day you are the owner and the horse does belong to you..but the loanee must have feelings for this horse and feelings cannot just be switched on and off!
I think you need to take those feelings into consideration and to be honest about your reasons for wanting the horse back if you are to come to any sort of agreement in all this.
		
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Sadly that's the risk you take with loaning. They also got use of a free horse for 7 years so not like they didn't have perks from the loan either


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## Kate35 (30 July 2011)

s4sugar said:



			Turn up with a trailer & copies of the contract & let her call the police.
		
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Why don't you just accompany the Loaner to the Police Station because that is where she will end up?


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## Kate35 (30 July 2011)

SusieT said:



			Go and collect him with a trailer and his passport, ideally in the dead of night but if thats not possible go during the day having warned teh police you are going to reclaim your property. Do you really want this owner to have him ?
		
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Susie

I personally am appalled by your comments and those of a number of other users and if I was the Loanee and had read such comments, I would be writing to the the owners of this Forum in the strongest possible terms becaue I don't doubt that they would have caused the Loanee to suffer a certain amount of distress and concern for her property and indeed the welfare of the Horse.

Whilst I have not read all of the Loaner's responses to the questions and comments that have been rasied I am able to read between the lines and see this from the Loanee's point of view.  

In the first instance, the "Loaner" claims to have been 16 at the time the Agreement was made.  Consequently, if the Loaner signed the agreement and she makes no mention that she didn't, then it would be declared void because the Law of Contract (subject to a few exceptions that I do not consider necessary to go into detail as they are of no concern to this matter) does not provide capacity for minors to enter into legally binding agreements.

At the outset there was a permanent agreement and permanent means just that. Assuming that the Agreement is valid in terms of both the Loaner's and Loanee's capacity, the agreement expressley provided for a term, in particular, that of the Horse's life. The Loaner purports to have provided the Loanee with the option to purchase but from what I have read, this seems to have been entered into at a later date rather than at the time of the orignal Agreement.  "We met up, she agreed to buy..."  

The Loaner admits that she wasn't in a position to care for the Horse at the time of the Agreement and in her own words admits that the Horse has been very well cared for by the Loanee.  Suddenly 3 years down the line and having claimed to have had a "change of circumstances." the Loaner presents the Loanee with an ultimatum; return the Horse or pay a lump sum of money. To me and I don't doubt to any other reasonable thinking individual, the fact that the Loaner has requested money for the sale of Horse indicates that the Loaner isn't interested in that Horse, just a sum of money possibly with a view to purchasing another Horse.  

Regardless of whether the option to purchase was entered into at the time of the original agreement or can be deemed to be a collateral agreement, presenteing such an ultimatum when the Agreement by the Loaner's own admission is being satisfactorily performed could be considered to amount to Duress.   There is also a question over the actual provisions for the termination of the Agreement and to this end the Agreement appears to be ambiguous in that it provides for the life time of the Horse but includes a Notice Period of 3 months for either Party.  Without having sight of the Agreement, one has to assume that the provision to terminate was solely concerned with and intended to protect the welfare of the Horse since the actual Term of the Agreement provided for the Horse's lifetime, such clause would only come into question if the Loanee's care of the Horse fell below the standard required.    

Nevertheless but subject to the legal capacity of the Parties the Agreement would still be considered to be valid in terms of law because it includes the basic and essential ingredients that make a Contract legally binding.  The one that comes into play here is "Consideration."  The "Consideration" in this instance comprises of the Loaner's Offer of the use and enjoyment of her Horse to the Loanee in exchange for the Loanee keeping it at her expense for the duration of the Horse's lifetime.  That agreement continues to be performed and the Loaner admits that this is more than satisfactory.    

The Loaner admits that there was never a problem with her relationship with the Loanee until she presented the Loanee with that ultimatum and the burning question that I would like to know is how much money did the Loaner request from the Loanee? Was it the the market value of the Horse at the time the Agreement, when the Loaner had no time for the Horse or is the Loaner demanding that the sale price reflects that of a well schooled and cared for Horse.  I suspect that it is the latter and this is why the Loanee is quite rightly annoyed and has the support of the other Liveries.

With regard to the tack, there is something called wear and tear, 3 years is a long time and what was the condition of the tack when it was handed over and what did the Agreement provide for it's return or replacement.  

Most importantly, at the centre of this is a Horse that has been loved and well cared for by the Loanee and is happy and settled in it's current home of 3 years. What a ridiculous and cruel statement and one that places the Horse's welfare at risk to go and collect the Horse in the middle of the night.  

Turning to the Police, this is a civil dispute and one that they will not concern themselves with.  However, should the Loaner and her helpers turn up at the Loanee's premises where the animal is kept regardless of the time of night or day they will render themselves liable to criminal proceedings, for Breach of the Peace and possibly Burglary.   At the very minimum and in order to obviate rendering themselves liable to such proceedings the Police would require sight of a Court Order that provides for the return of the Horse to the Loaner.   Subject to the clauses concerned with the termination of the Agreement, the Loaner may have a right of action in the Civil Court, however I would be very surprised if a Judge would grant any Specific Performance Injunction that provided for the return of the Horse or a sum of money ex parte without first hearing the Loanee's side of the storey and the Loaner has said nothing that would lead me to believe that a Judge would find in her favour under either equitable rules or under the terms of the Agreement.

Isn't this a case of I want another Horse but I don't particularly want that one back but what I will do is try and get some money off the Loanee to buy another Horse?    When the Loanee quite rightly refuses, the Loaner then threatens to take the Horse back.  Perhaps the Loaner just wants money, maybe another change of circumstances in her life dictate that she needs money.  There are of course two sides to the storey but at the end of the day, if someone has agreed to look after another person's Horse for the duration of that Horse's life and that arrangement is performed satisfactory and for the benefit of the Horse, it would be grossly unfair not just to the Horse but to the Loanee to remove the Horse from the Loanee's care. 

Finally, I do not know why people reach the conclusion that a Horse Passport is absolute proof of ownership, take it from me, a qualified legal professional that it isn't and on the inside cover of every Horse Passport, there is usually a note to that effect.


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## Kate35 (30 July 2011)

SusieT said:



			Go and collect him with a trailer and his passport, ideally in the dead of night but if thats not possible go during the day having warned teh police you are going to reclaim your property. Do you really want this owner to have him ?
		
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Susie

I personally am appalled by your comments and those of a number of other users and if I was the Loanee and had read such comments, I would be writing to the the owners of this Forum in the strongest possible terms becaue I don't doubt that they would have caused the Loanee to suffer a certain amount of distress and concern.

Whilst I have not read all of the Loaner's responses to the questions and comments that have been rasied I am able to read between the lines and see this from the Loanee's point of view.  

In the first instance, the "Loaner" claims to have been 16 at the time the Agreement was made.  Consequently, if the Loaner signed the agreement and she makes no mention that she didn't, then it would be declared void because the Law of Contract (subject to a few exceptions that I do not consider necessary to go into detail as they are of no concern to this matter) does not provide capacity for minors to enter into legally binding agreements.

At the outset there was a permanent agreement and permanent means just that. Assuming that the Agreement is valid in terms of both the Loaner's and Loanee's capacity, the agreement expressley provided for a term, in particular, that of the Horse's life. The Loaner purports to have provided the Loanee with the option to purchase but from what I have read, this seems to have been entered into at a later date rather than at the time of the orignal Agreement.  "We met up, she agreed to buy..."  

The Loaner admits that she wasn't in a position to care for the Horse at the time of the Agreement and in her own words admits that the Horse has been very well cared for by the Loanee.  Suddenly 3 years down the line and having claimed to have had a "change of circumstances." the Loaner presents the Loanee with an ultimatum; return the Horse or pay a lump sum of money. To me and I don't doubt to any other reasonable thinking individual, the fact that the Loaner has requested money for the sale of Horse indicates that the Loaner isn't interested in that Horse, just a sum of money possibly with a view to purchasing another Horse.  

Regardless of whether the option to purchase was entered into at the time of the original agreement or can be deemed to be a collateral agreement, presenteing such an ultimatum when the Agreement by the Loaner's own admission is being satisfactorily performed could be considered to amount to Duress.   There is also a question over the actual provisions for the termination of the Agreement and to this end the Agreement appears to be ambiguous in that it provides for the life time of the Horse but includes a Notice Period of 3 months for either Party.  Without having sight of the Agreement, one has to assume that the provision to terminate was solely concerned with and intended to protect the welfare of the Horse since the actual Term of the Agreement provided for the Horse's lifetime, such clause would only come into question if the Loanee's care of the Horse fell below the standard required.    

Nevertheless but subject to the legal capacity of the Parties the Agreement would still be considered to be valid in terms of law because it includes the basic and essential ingredients that make a Contract legally binding.  The one that comes into play here is "Consideration."  The "Consideration" in this instance comprises of the Loaner's Offer of the use and enjoyment of her Horse to the Loanee in exchange for the Loanee keeping it at her expense for the duration of the Horse's lifetime.  That agreement continues to be performed and the Loaner admits that this is more than satisfactory.    

The Loaner admits that there was never a problem with her relationship with the Loanee until she presented the Loanee with that ultimatum and the burning question that I would like to know is how much money did the Loaner request from the Loanee? Was it the the market value of the Horse at the time the Agreement, when the Loaner had no time for the Horse or is the Loaner demanding that the sale price reflects that of a well schooled and cared for Horse.  I suspect that it is the latter and this is why the Loanee is quite rightly annoyed and has the support of the other Liveries.

With regard to the tack, there is something called wear and tear, 3 years is a long time and what was the condition of the tack when it was handed over and what did the Agreement provide for it's return or replacement.  

Most importantly, at the centre of this is a Horse that has been loved and well cared for by the Loanee and is happy and settled in it's current home of 3 years. What a ridiculous and cruel statement and one that places the Horse's welfare at risk to go and collect the Horse in the middle of the night.  

Turning to the Police, this is a civil dispute and one that they will not concern themselves with.  However, should the Loaner and her helpers turn up at the Loanee's premises where the animal is kept regardless of the time of night or day they will render themselves liable to criminal proceedings, for Breach of the Peace and possibly Burglary.   At the very minimum and in order to obviate rendering themselves liable to such proceedings the Police would require sight of a Court Order that provides for the return of the Horse to the Loaner.   Subject to the clauses concerned with the termination of the Agreement, the Loaner may have a right of action in the Civil Court, however I would be very surprised if a Judge would grant any Specific Performance Injunction that provided for the return of the Horse or a sum of money ex parte without first hearing the Loanee's side of the storey and the Loaner has said nothing that would lead me to believe that a Judge would find in her favour under either equitable rules or under the terms of the Agreement.

Isn't this a case of I want another Horse but I don't particularly want that one back but what I will do is try and get some money off the Loanee to buy another Horse?    When the Loanee quite rightly refuses, the Loaner then threatens to take the Horse back.  Perhaps the Loaner just wants money, maybe another change of circumstances in her life dictate that she needs money.  There are of course two sides to the storey but at the end of the day, if someone has agreed to look after another person's Horse for the duration of that Horse's life and that arrangement is performed satisfactory and for the benefit of the Horse, it would be grossly unfair not just to the Horse but to the Loanee to remove the Horse from the Loanee's care. 

Finally, I do not know why people reach the conclusion that a Horse Passport is absolute proof of ownership, take it from me, a qualified legal professional that it isn't and on the inside cover of every Horse Passport, there is usually a note to that effect.


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## Tinseltoes (30 July 2011)

sprytzer said:



			And have you not thought to check that YOU are'nt in possetion of a stolen horse, seeing as how there are so many things wrong with YOUR loan??
		
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Already checked on stolen horse register.The woman told me that she had the ponies in return for owed grazing.


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## Tinseltoes (30 July 2011)

Kate35 said:



			Susie

I personally am appalled by your comments and those of a number of other users and if I was the Loanee and had read such comments, I would be writing to the the owners of this Forum in the strongest possible terms becaue I don't doubt that they would have caused the Loanee to suffer a certain amount of distress and concern.

Whilst I have not read all of the Loaner's responses to the questions and comments that have been rasied I am able to read between the lines and see this from the Loanee's point of view.  

In the first instance, the "Loaner" claims to have been 16 at the time the Agreement was made.  Consequently, if the Loaner signed the agreement and she makes no mention that she didn't, then it would be declared void because the Law of Contract (subject to a few exceptions that I do not consider necessary to go into detail as they are of no concern to this matter) does not provide capacity for minors to enter into legally binding agreements.

At the outset there was a permanent agreement and permanent means just that. Assuming that the Agreement is valid in terms of both the Loaner's and Loanee's capacity, the agreement expressley provided for a term, in particular, that of the Horse's life. The Loaner purports to have provided the Loanee with the option to purchase but from what I have read, this seems to have been entered into at a later date rather than at the time of the orignal Agreement.  "We met up, she agreed to buy..."  

The Loaner admits that she wasn't in a position to care for the Horse at the time of the Agreement and in her own words admits that the Horse has been very well cared for by the Loanee.  Suddenly 3 years down the line and having claimed to have had a "change of circumstances." the Loaner presents the Loanee with an ultimatum; return the Horse or pay a lump sum of money. To me and I don't doubt to any other reasonable thinking individual, the fact that the Loaner has requested money for the sale of Horse indicates that the Loaner isn't interested in that Horse, just a sum of money possibly with a view to purchasing another Horse.  

Regardless of whether the option to purchase was entered into at the time of the original agreement or can be deemed to be a collateral agreement, presenteing such an ultimatum when the Agreement by the Loaner's own admission is being satisfactorily performed could be considered to amount to Duress.   There is also a question over the actual provisions for the termination of the Agreement and to this end the Agreement appears to be ambiguous in that it provides for the life time of the Horse but includes a Notice Period of 3 months for either Party.  Without having sight of the Agreement, one has to assume that the provision to terminate was solely concerned with and intended to protect the welfare of the Horse since the actual Term of the Agreement provided for the Horse's lifetime, such clause would only come into question if the Loanee's care of the Horse fell below the standard required.    

Nevertheless but subject to the legal capacity of the Parties the Agreement would still be considered to be valid in terms of law because it includes the basic and essential ingredients that make a Contract legally binding.  The one that comes into play here is "Consideration."  The "Consideration" in this instance comprises of the Loaner's Offer of the use and enjoyment of her Horse to the Loanee in exchange for the Loanee keeping it at her expense for the duration of the Horse's lifetime.  That agreement continues to be performed and the Loaner admits that this is more than satisfactory.    

The Loaner admits that there was never a problem with her relationship with the Loanee until she presented the Loanee with that ultimatum and the burning question that I would like to know is how much money did the Loaner request from the Loanee? Was it the the market value of the Horse at the time the Agreement, when the Loaner had no time for the Horse or is the Loaner demanding that the sale price reflects that of a well schooled and cared for Horse.  I suspect that it is the latter and this is why the Loanee is quite rightly annoyed and has the support of the other Liveries.

With regard to the tack, there is something called wear and tear, 3 years is a long time and what was the condition of the tack when it was handed over and what did the Agreement provide for it's return or replacement.  

Most importantly, at the centre of this is a Horse that has been loved and well cared for by the Loanee and is happy and settled in it's current home of 3 years. What a ridiculous and cruel statement and one that places the Horse's welfare at risk to go and collect the Horse in the middle of the night.  

Turning to the Police, this is a civil dispute and one that they will not concern themselves with.  However, should the Loaner and her helpers turn up at the Loanee's premises where the animal is kept regardless of the time of night or day they will render themselves liable to criminal proceedings, for Breach of the Peace and possibly Burglary.   At the very minimum and in order to obviate rendering themselves liable to such proceedings the Police would require sight of a Court Order that provides for the return of the Horse to the Loaner.   Subject to the clauses concerned with the termination of the Agreement, the Loaner may have a right of action in the Civil Court, however I would be very surprised if a Judge would grant any Specific Performance Injunction that provided for the return of the Horse or a sum of money ex parte without first hearing the Loanee's side of the storey and the Loaner has said nothing that would lead me to believe that a Judge would find in her favour under either equitable rules or under the terms of the Agreement.

Isn't this a case of I want another Horse but I don't particularly want that one back but what I will do is try and get some money off the Loanee to buy another Horse?    When the Loanee quite rightly refuses, the Loaner then threatens to take the Horse back.  Perhaps the Loaner just wants money, maybe another change of circumstances in her life dictate that she needs money.  There are of course two sides to the storey but at the end of the day, if someone has agreed to look after another person's Horse for the duration of that Horse's life and that arrangement is performed satisfactory and for the benefit of the Horse, it would be grossly unfair not just to the Horse but to the Loanee to remove the Horse from the Loanee's care. 

Finally, I do not know why people reach the conclusion that a Horse Passport is absolute proof of ownership, take it from me, a qualified legal professional that it isn't and on the inside cover of every Horse Passport, there is usually a note to that effect.
		
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Well said.


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## ILuvCowparsely (31 July 2011)

Personally I think there should be some kind of log book or page  within the passport , where there is a  area   which has to be done  from NED which says 
 " Proof  of leagal owner"  and then the owners name beside  which is signed and printed name  , where you have to send proof of owners ship by the way of receipt  or photos and stud receipts from  mares covering dates .Only then can NED stamp the area where they are satisfied you are the legal owner.

  That way if the Lonee  has the passport  the owners real name and stamp are still there to prove owner ship and they can't dispute . Then if the lonee wants to buy  they send the receipt and a letter from the actual owner   and then the stamp goes into the new owner bit .

  I have one receipt from my mare and one from my pony     and my other mare.


the donkey I don't have as bought her from Market in 93 and never thought of receipt   my gelding i bred  so do have my mares stud receipt.


 Something should be done about this or  passport means nothing .


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## Tinseltoes (31 July 2011)

Leviathan said:



			Personally I think there should be some kind of log book or page  within the passport , where there is a  area   which has to be done  from NED which says 
 " Proof  of leagal owner"  and then the owners name beside  which is signed and printed name  , where you have to send proof of owners ship by the way of receipt  or photos and stud receipts from  mares covering dates .Only then can NED stamp the area where they are satisfied you are the legal owner.

  That way if the Lonee  has the passport  the owners real name and stamp are still there to prove owner ship and they can't dispute . Then if the lonee wants to buy  they send the receipt and a letter from the actual owner   and then the stamp goes into the new owner bit .

  I have one receipt from my mare and one from my pony     and my other mare.


the donkey I don't have as bought her from Market in 93 and never thought of receipt   my gelding i bred  so do have my mares stud receipt.


 Something should be done about this or  passport means nothing .
		
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PASSPORT IS NOT proof of ownership as it is now,its for identification only.The only proof of ownership presently I should think would be bill of sale,registration papers.


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## ILuvCowparsely (31 July 2011)

sharon1959 said:



			PASSPORT IS NOT proof of ownership as it is now,its for identification only.The only proof of ownership presently I should think would be bill of sale,registration papers.
		
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  Jesus.   I know read    my post 



			Personally I think there should be some kind of log book or page within the passport , where there is a area which has to be done from NED which says
" Proof of leagal owner" and then the owners name beside which is signed and printed name , where you have to send proof of owners ship by the way of receipt or photos and stud receipts from mares covering dates .Only then can NED stamp the area where they are satisfied you are the legal owner.
		
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  i SAID  THERE SHOULD BE SOMETHING IN THE PASSPORT  ( IE NEW THING) WHERE YOU HAVE TO SEND YOU PROOF BY   RECEIPT OF PURCHASE OR DOCUMENTS OF BREEDING TO NED.


  That way the passport will be proof of ownership  "ONLY"   IF  NED    have the Receipts  of proof .  THEY  then stamp your signature  which is then a record of you owning horse , its not too hard to understand .

 SO IF THERE IS NO STAMP on the proof of ownership.  Then that passport is not proof ,but if you have the stamp then it is.

 So simplified for you

  when you purchase a horse  

NED when they stamp the new owner  they need a copy of the sales receipt before they stamp it  and send it back.


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## Cuffey (31 July 2011)

Why not (as Rollin recommends) use the Haras system, whereby ownership documents remain with the owner, the passport with the horse and no horse can be sold without the ownership document.

Quote from
http://www.eaap.org/Previous_Annual...apers/H1.4_Horse identification in France.pdf

''The Haras Nationaux are responsible for horse identification. They have created a national
and central database SIRE where is registered all the information about identification, stud books and genetic indexes.
SIRE issues a passport for each horse, including Universal Equine Life Number,
identification, pedigree, stud book registration and all other EC regulations items. The
ownership card is issued on a separate form and re-issued at every ownership change ; so the passport remains always with the horse.''

This works well as passports are issued by one PIO
UK allowed far too many organisations to issue passports and our system simply does not work--open to abuse and forgery.


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## Tinseltoes (31 July 2011)

Leviathan said:



			Jesus.   I know read    my post 


  i SAID  THERE SHOULD BE SOMETHING IN THE PASSPORT  ( IE NEW THING) WHERE YOU HAVE TO SEND YOU PROOF BY   RECEIPT OF PURCHASE OR DOCUMENTS OF BREEDING TO NED.


  That way the passport will be proof of ownership  "ONLY"   IF  NED    have the Receipts  of proof .  THEY  then stamp your signature  which is then a record of you owning horse , its not too hard to understand .

 SO IF THERE IS NO STAMP on the proof of ownership.  Then that passport is not proof ,but if you have the stamp then it is.

 So simplified for you

  when you purchase a horse  

NED when they stamp the new owner  they need a copy of the sales receipt before they stamp it  and send it back.
		
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Cuffey said:



			Why not (as Rollin recommends) use the Haras system, whereby ownership documents remain with the owner, the passport with the horse and no horse can be sold without the ownership document.

Quote from
http://www.eaap.org/Previous_Annual...apers/H1.4_Horse identification in France.pdf

''The Haras Nationaux are responsible for horse identification. They have created a national
and central database SIRE where is registered all the information about identification, stud books and genetic indexes.
SIRE issues a passport for each horse, including Universal Equine Life Number,
identification, pedigree, stud book registration and all other EC regulations items. The
ownership card is issued on a separate form and re-issued at every ownership change ; so the passport remains always with the horse.''

This works well as passports are issued by one PIO
UK allowed far too many organisations to issue passports and our system simply does not work--open to abuse and forgery.
		
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I think both ideas are good. French system would work better I think.


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## ILuvCowparsely (31 July 2011)

Cuffey said:



			Why not (as Rollin recommends) use the Haras system, whereby ownership documents remain with the owner, the passport with the horse and no horse can be sold without the ownership document.
		
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  Even better idea .

 I know i bought  my pony with her son who I bought from a friend.  The b/f kept the pony and got a duplicate made ( I never got the pony's  son  )

*Maybe before they issue a duplicate passport they should request  proof of ownership also maybe by the fore mention idea ,  that way no one can get duplicates  unless they are the actual owner, instead of jo blogs who stole pony last week saying he lost his and getting another.*


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## Kate35 (31 July 2011)

Leviathan said:



			Jesus.   I know read    my post 


  i SAID  THERE SHOULD BE SOMETHING IN THE PASSPORT  ( IE NEW THING) WHERE YOU HAVE TO SEND YOU PROOF BY   RECEIPT OF PURCHASE OR DOCUMENTS OF BREEDING TO NED.


  That way the passport will be proof of ownership  "ONLY"   IF  NED    have the Receipts  of proof .  THEY  then stamp your signature  which is then a record of you owning horse , its not too hard to understand .

 SO IF THERE IS NO STAMP on the proof of ownership.  Then that passport is not proof ,but if you have the stamp then it is.

 So simplified for you

  when you purchase a horse  

NED when they stamp the new owner  they need a copy of the sales receipt before they stamp it  and send it back.
		
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Cuffey, Leviathan, may I invite you to take a rein check so to speak.  My understanding is that this post is concerned with a a permanent Loan Agreement that the Loaner now wishes to repudiate.  May I suggest that we enter into another post to discuss further the subject of Horse Passports.  I would have to say that I do consider that you are being rather unfair to the lady who corrected your quote "there has to be something done about this thing that Horse Passports mean nothing."  A Horse Passport is not meaningless, it's purpose is however restricted to identification of a particular Horse, it was never intended nor will it ever be intended to be regarded as proof of legal ownership.  That is the point that I made at the end of my reply and that is what the previous lady reiterated to you.


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## Dancing Queen (31 July 2011)

has she managed to get her horse home?


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## Kate35 (31 July 2011)

Luci07 said:



			I am not a lawyer either but did study some contract law as part of another course years ago. The one thing I can remember if that a contract is voided if one person seeks to amend it. In this case, the horse was offered for sale, the other person accepted (in writing). This then terminates the original contract. 

That is incorrect Luci07.  The main purpose of the original Agreement continues to be performed, the Loaner's offer of the use and enjoyment of the Horse on a permanent basis to the Loanee at her expense.  

When a Clause in a Contract is subject to variation this can be said to be achieved by actual performance but it is usually dealt with by way of an additional Deed executed by both parties that varies a clause but retains the original Agreement in it's entirety.  These Deeds sometimes referred to as Riders are annexed to the original Agreement. They can either release a party from an obligation or simply vary a clause.   In the event of a dispute and any change to the original Agreement regardless or whether it has been expressed in writing or implied by way of performance this could be considered to be what is known as a Collateral Contract, an additional Agreement that is deemed to run alongside the original Agreement.  Neither apply in this case.  

Arguably, the Loaner has presented the Loanee with an Option, but she is not obliged to accept as the orginal Agreement is still being performed and the Loaner has acknowledged that it is being performed satisfactorily.  Without having sight of the Break Clauses, in particular the 3 month Notice period and the reason for termination which I have already said I suspect is solely concerned with the welfare of the Horse, the Loaner has no rights to rescind the Contract.  

I would add that I have now had the opportunity to read and consider the Loaner's answers to all of the questions that have been put to her and I note there are a number of contradictions.  In one answer the Loaner says that her financial circumstances have changed and she is now able to provide for and keep the Horse, in another she says that she can not afford to buy tack, and in another she says that she is now at University and just whats an end to this one way or another.  In all honesty, if the Loaner is now at University, that indicates to me that her time and money are limited and given her remark that the "Loanne can afford it, she drives an Aston Martin," it's quite obvious to me that all that the Loaner wants is money and the Loanee has quite rightly refused because she is not obliged to hand over any money for the Horse whilst that Contract is still being performed. 

The Agreement is said to be permanent but what happens if and I emphasise my usage of the word "if" the Loanee's circumstances change, for example, the Loanee suddenly loses interest in the Horse, the horse is no longer suitable for her requirements, the Horse becomes a lame duck so to speak for which the Loanee is not prepared to keep at her expense.   Did that Contract include an Indemnity Clause to provide for such eventuality?  That is why these Contracts need to be properly drafted which brings me to the sample BHS Loan Agreement that is the subject of some debate on another Post.  

Perhaps the person who mentioned that they thought that they knew the Grandparents who owned the premises where the Horse is kept could directly or indirectly contact the Loanee and make her aware of this post and without prejudicing herself, invite her through a friend to put her side of the storey.  I don't doubt that she has taken legal advice that takes the form of what I have already said.  

Has any one heard further from the Loaner, could MHOL, subject to the Loaner's permission provide me with a copy of the Agreement, deleting names and addresses of all parties. I will quite happily provide my observations and comments upon it free of charge!
		
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## Aimee and Tara (31 July 2011)

aaa


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## Kate35 (31 July 2011)

Aimee and Tara said:



			aaa
		
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bbb


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## Tinseltoes (31 July 2011)

Kate35 said:



			bbb
		
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lol. I dont know what happened to the op but she hasnt been on here in ages.I thought I had problems with my loan pony contract. 
I agree with everything you have said.


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## BonBon1076 (1 August 2011)

Leviathan said:



			when you purchase a horse  

NED when they stamp the new owner  they need a copy of the sales receipt before they stamp it  and send it back.
		
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Just what I needed to know  Thanks so much Leviathan  Long story, I'm new here XX


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## Aimee and Tara (2 August 2011)

Has she got her horse back yet? The owner hasnt been on here for ages. Sorry for the origanal post, it was my first post and i got scared and deleted it!!!!


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## MHOL (2 August 2011)

Kate35 said:





Luci07 said:



			I am not a lawyer either but did study some contract law as part of another course years ago. The one thing I can remember if that a contract is voided if one person seeks to amend it. In this case, the horse was offered for sale, the other person accepted (in writing). This then terminates the original contract. 

That is incorrect Luci07.  The main purpose of the original Agreement continues to be performed, the Loaner's offer of the use and enjoyment of the Horse on a permanent basis to the Loanee at her expense.  

When a Clause in a Contract is subject to variation this can be said to be achieved by actual performance but it is usually dealt with by way of an additional Deed executed by both parties that varies a clause but retains the original Agreement in it's entirety.  These Deeds sometimes referred to as Riders are annexed to the original Agreement. They can either release a party from an obligation or simply vary a clause.   In the event of a dispute and any change to the original Agreement regardless or whether it has been expressed in writing or implied by way of performance this could be considered to be what is known as a Collateral Contract, an additional Agreement that is deemed to run alongside the original Agreement.  Neither apply in this case.  

Arguably, the Loaner has presented the Loanee with an Option, but she is not obliged to accept as the orginal Agreement is still being performed and the Loaner has acknowledged that it is being performed satisfactorily.  Without having sight of the Break Clauses, in particular the 3 month Notice period and the reason for termination which I have already said I suspect is solely concerned with the welfare of the Horse, the Loaner has no rights to rescind the Contract.  

I would add that I have now had the opportunity to read and consider the Loaner's answers to all of the questions that have been put to her and I note there are a number of contradictions.  In one answer the Loaner says that her financial circumstances have changed and she is now able to provide for and keep the Horse, in another she says that she can not afford to buy tack, and in another she says that she is now at University and just whats an end to this one way or another.  In all honesty, if the Loaner is now at University, that indicates to me that her time and money are limited and given her remark that the "Loanne can afford it, she drives an Aston Martin," it's quite obvious to me that all that the Loaner wants is money and the Loanee has quite rightly refused because she is not obliged to hand over any money for the Horse whilst that Contract is still being performed. 

The Agreement is said to be permanent but what happens if and I emphasise my usage of the word "if" the Loanee's circumstances change, for example, the Loanee suddenly loses interest in the Horse, the horse is no longer suitable for her requirements, the Horse becomes a lame duck so to speak for which the Loanee is not prepared to keep at her expense.   Did that Contract include an Indemnity Clause to provide for such eventuality?  That is why these Contracts need to be properly drafted which brings me to the sample BHS Loan Agreement that is the subject of some debate on another Post.  

Perhaps the person who mentioned that they thought that they knew the Grandparents who owned the premises where the Horse is kept could directly or indirectly contact the Loanee and make her aware of this post and without prejudicing herself, invite her through a friend to put her side of the storey.  I don't doubt that she has taken legal advice that takes the form of what I have already said.  

Has any one heard further from the Loaner, could MHOL, subject to the Loaner's permission provide me with a copy of the Agreement, deleting names and addresses of all parties. I will quite happily provide my observations and comments upon it free of charge!
		
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Thanks for the offer of help, as it stands there may be something to report later today, i cannot comment until then. Perhaps we could run another contract past you in the future, can you email us your email address or look for me on Facebook missinghorsesonloan@googlemail.com, thanks.
		
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## Luci07 (4 August 2011)

I think something else that has been really clearly demonstrated by posts such as this (and thanks for correcting me Kate, I was definately mis-informed!) that.. when we, as equine people, are dealing with issue with horses we must remember we are dealing with the "services" (by this I mean police/judges/law) who do not have our background knowledge or understanding. Therefore because we are basing our claim on our interpretations, it would seem that this is where we tend to go awry. So - one person says "horse stolen", other says "horse was given to me". Police say "civil matter" and walk away. We need to take (and I really do include myself in this), the emotion out of areas such as loan and really take a hard LEGAL look at the situation. Another example - I personally know someone who paid a lot of money for a saddle - from someone purporting to be a master saddler. Actually they weren't but there is a very large gray area - you would assume fully registerd but that was not (back then) the case. Saddle caused damage, saddler refused to refund or assist. Case went to court. Judge threw it out - why? it was a saddle, he didn't acknowledge or understand the difference using a master saddler would make and to him, it broadly fitted the horse. He had (and why should he) no understanding of the fact that saddles are vitally important!

This particular area of the forum has really opened my eyes as I would happily have made exactly the same assumptions/errors as others.  It is also obvious from other postings that people are a lot wiser now and trying to really think ahead as to what constitutes a safe agreeent for them, their horse and their loaner.


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## Naryafluffy (4 August 2011)

MHOL said:





Kate35 said:



			Thanks for the offer of help, as it stands there may be something to report later today, i cannot comment until then. Perhaps we could run another contract past you in the future, can you email us your email address or look for me on Facebook missinghorsesonloan@googlemail.com, thanks.
		
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Has there beeen an update on this yet?
		
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## Aimee and Tara (4 August 2011)

No one knows they haven't posted (the original poster) hasnt been on here for ages.


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