# Colt/Stallion Owners - Advice Please?



## Kao (28 December 2010)

This has got to be the first time I've outright asked for advice, but any who 
I've enquired about livery, and everyone says I'm absolutely ridiculous for getting a new horse in the situation I'm in (I have a mageek plan that nobody knows about *disappears in a poof of pink powder*) but, it just feels right...

Sorry, long post coming up. Kudos and cookies to those who get thorugh it 

My gelding, special as he is, managed to cover a lot of mares (not just one or two...a lot) when he was with his old owners. The choice of mares leaves a lot to be desired, as was their choice of stallion. At the time, when I picked up my boy (gelded late at 4) I thought "Wow. Who would actually want a foal from this? It's a brown and white stick." well, few months down the line and seeing him as a healthy, happy 5 year old got me thinking. Did the dealers have any of his foals left?

Much to my amazement (that they kept this foal so long) they have one nice little colt left, and actually not a bad cross compared to most of what Kao was put to (a 9hh shetland and 15hh Black welsh cob from hell comes to mind). It's dam is a Chestnut TB x mare and the sire is, well, Kao...
The mare is nice natured, though never trained and now probably going to be a broodmare for the rest of it's life, decent (bog standard really) conformation and fairly uphill.
I've never seen her move freely so I can't comment on that.

The colt in question is a Chestnut Tobiano to make about 15hh (sire is 14.2hh dam is about 15.2hh) and 1 1/2 years old.
Now. Normally, I would ooh and ahh over this situation but the dealers/breeders started talking to me on Facebook (ah good old Facebook) and told me he was for sale, I naturally asked how much...
£400.
In todays market, £400 for a not-so well bred colt is fairly steep but...hell I have the money. So it's almost certain I'm buying this foal subject to finding livery.

Well, I'm asking for advice in the colt/stallion field because I want to keep him entire and give him a chance. Believe me, I'm one of the most anti-indiscriminate breeding people in the world. As soon as I see any conformational faults, temperamental issues or any other such bad things, it's the snip for him.
I want to get him graded, certified etc. Produce him like I have done with other youngsters, but though it's been my dream to own a stallion that's actually mine, I'd like to know a few basics of owning one. Is it any different to owning a broodmare that backs up to anything in a "TAKE ME NOW." fashion?
I've handled a few stallions, but nothing past light schooling, walking off and tying up for the farrier.

Was just wondering if there's anything extra I need to know?

P.S: Absolutely no way ever would I let him cover anything till at least 4 when he's grown into himself and I'm certain that he's mature enough. I know some stallions cover at 2 and 3 but most of the youngsters who cover are well bred and have something going for them. Pretty sure breeding a patchy heinz pony to anything under the sun is the best thing to do unless he's accomplished something.


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## s4sugar (28 December 2010)

Kao said:



			Pretty sure breeding a patchy heinz pony to anything under the sun is the best thing to do unless he's accomplished something.
		
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Shouldn't there be a not in that sentence?

Sorry but why buy a colt with part pedigree to keep entire?


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## Kao (28 December 2010)

s4sugar said:



			Shouldn't there be a not in that sentence?

Sorry but why buy a colt with part pedigree to keep entire?
		
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Ah D: sorry I can't type today.
Yes there was suppose to be a not in that 

Sorry but there's tons of colts with no pedigreewho aren't registered with anything, ungraded and unproven until later in life that go on and have a successful competition career. 
Just because I want to keep him entire for a few years doesn't mean I'm going to let him cover anything.


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## pintoarabian (28 December 2010)

Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear but there are lots of high quality, graded stallions out there and a market flooded with unwanted horses, even well-bred ones. It will cost you a heck of a lot more than the purchase to have him graded but, if you are hellbent on proceeding, you should definitely go down this route. If he's not good enough to pass a grading, he's not good enough to breed from. By your own admission, neither of his parents is anything special so what mare owners would choose to breed to a stallion who could throw back to God knows what? My advice is to let this one go, let him be gelded and go on to lead a better life.


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## millitiger (28 December 2010)

sorry i think it is a mad idea.

If you want to have a stallion to run on, imo you need to spend some more serious money and buy a colt with pedigree, conformation and talent to actually be worthy of keeping it entire.


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## Kao (28 December 2010)

pintoarabian said:



			Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear but there are lots of high quality, graded stallions out there and a market flooded with unwanted horses, even well-bred ones. It will cost you a heck of a lot more than the purchase to have him graded but, if you are hellbent on proceeding, you should definitely go down this route. If he's not good enough to pass a grading, he's not good enough to breed from. By your own admission, neither of his parents is anything special so what mare owners would choose to breed to a stallion who could throw back to God knows what? My advice is to let this one go, let him be gelded and go on to lead a better life.
		
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That's the thing. He wont be gelded. He'll be passed from pillar from post on Dragon Driving till eventually, he'll be useless and probably in someone's back garden.
I am absolutely dead set on getting him graded. No doubt. If he doesn't pass, I'll have him gelded straight away and do the same as what I was planning on doing with him anyway 

His sire hasn't done anything to prove his self yet! I've only had him 5 months and not been able to do a lot. Plus, he's only a 5 year old, I'm in no rush to push him into competition and I'm waiting till Spring to start competing him anyway 

Believe me, I wont hesitate to geld if he doesn't make the grade.


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## Kao (28 December 2010)

millitiger said:



			sorry i think it is a mad idea.

If you want to have a stallion to run on, imo you need to spend some more serious money and buy a colt with pedigree, conformation and talent to actually be worthy of keeping it entire.
		
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Mhm. Maybe I am mad, but hey ho there's a lot worse.


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## Kao (28 December 2010)

Also. Are any of you stallion owners?
I was asking for advice, though thanks for the replies


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## emlybob (28 December 2010)

Hi Kao
I could get shot down for this but i would like to say that i do believe a horse (stallion or mare) is a product of their upbringing.  Our stallion happily turns out along side other horses and is stabled in a loddon type barn next to other horses with no problem.  Shut them away form other horses and they will turn into raging lunatics when they see another horse!!

I do believe if stallions are treated with respect and are actually allowed to be horses rather than a breeding machine they can be happy horses.  I know many people that run their stallions out with mares, and geldings alike with absolutely no problem.

I do also agree with the above comments in that if he is just average then is there any point keeping him entire. If you were only going to breed for yourself then what you do with him is completely up to you.  If it great to see someone talking sense on here in the fact that if he doesn't grade or isn't good enough you will geld him.  However there is the option of collecting and freezing semen from him and gelding him anyway, then you have the best of both worlds!!


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## Rowreach (28 December 2010)

Ok I'm not going to comment on whether or not you should go down this route, but what I will say is that even if a colt is easy to handle they cause logistical problems which are bad enough even if like me you are keeping him on your own yard. let alone if you are keeping him on livery.  I'm just not sure it will be practical tbh.  My colt is well behaved but he's a very big rising 2yo which means he has to be handled by those of us who know what we are doing, and he can't be anywhere near any of the fields with mares in or the fields that are next to my neighbour (who tends to lob mares in her sheep fields without letting me know, even though I've begged her to text me in case he's a bit close to the boundary).  I dread to think of the hassle if I kept him at livery, even if I could find somewhere to put him.  Probably the only places that would have him would want him kept in 24/7.

Just read the post above and wanted to say that my colt is very happy and adjusted and runs with geldings and is out most of the time, but I don't want any unplanned babies and I don't think my mare owning liveries would either, hence I keep him away from mares lol!


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## Foxfolly (28 December 2010)

I'd say go for it if you really like him and you are 100% confident that you can remain unbiased about his suitability as a stallion when he gets older.
I went against a lot of peoples advice on here 2 years ago when I bought my stallion...






OK slightly different as he is very well bred so does have the pedigree to back him up but at the end of the day he was an unbroken 4yo that was dirt cheap due to an injury he sustained as a 2yo. I have learnt a lot through asking select people on here (Henryhorn and Anastasia being the main ones!) also made a few mistakes but generally he has been very easy, he is easier to handle than my 15yo gelding who is a complete ****!!
We backed him ourselves (We are true amateurs) and he went to our local riding club loads in his first year ridden which was great for socialising him with other horses and he is now extremely well behaved around others at shows etc even when he has been covering, in fact he has been to group lessons on an evening after he has covered in the morning. He is treated exactly the same as the others except that he has his own paddock! I personaly think if you treat them too differently then that is when you have problems BUT I never forget that I have a stallion on the end of the rope (Or between my legs... lol!!) 
My boy has now turned into a strapping chap, he has 2 babies on the ground, more due 2011 and more interest from others wanting to use him next year too. 

This was him at the bramham stallion parade in June, a far cry from the scrawny 4yo I bought back in July 08!!


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## Avonbrook (28 December 2010)

Yes, at least one of your replies above is from an experienced owner of a number of stallions.

Leaving aside the points raised above, you say that you have enquired about livery.  I have had to find considerable ingenuity over the years to provide the socialisation and quality of life that I consider to be necessary for my well-bred, graded and very sweet natured stallion as he has matured to an adult from an "innocent" 18 month old.  This is with my own facilities and nobody's horses to consider other than my own.  I do not know anyone personally who has managed to do so as a livery where the constraints are so much greater.  

I do, however, know a couple of people who have tried and ultimately gelded for the sake of the horse without anyone having been hurt in the process.  The change came as the colts began to mature and would have been required by their yards to be kept in isolation if they hadn't been gelded.


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## pintoarabian (28 December 2010)

Yes, I am a stallion owner with graded and licensed stallions and I did offer what I think is sound advice. I would also recommend that you fully familiarise yourself with the grading process and associated costs before you make a commitment. These are considerable costs that carry no guarantee of a successful grading outcome.


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## Fahrenheit (28 December 2010)

Kao...

things to think to yourself...

Is he going to be talented? 
Is he going to be capable of achieving good affiliated results?
Has he got a good chance of passing a proper grading?
Am I prepared to throw lots of money down the loo? (Even having a decent stallion you still have to be prepared to spend alot of money that you won't get back!)

If you answer No to any of the above, don't bother!

There is many stallions in this country that are just NTR licensed or passed gradings as youngsters then never achieved anything in competition and disappear into the abis.

On the otherhand, buy the colt, keep the colt entire... make a decision when he is 3, but be prepared that the decision will be to geld and bring on as a riding horse to sell, because that will cost less than going down the stallion route... but if by the slim chance you find you have a superstar in the making, consider the Sport Pony route (if he fits the criteria) as they are for stallions upto 15.2h. Good luck whatever you decide


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## MissTyc (28 December 2010)

I have stallion and currently two colts (was three until a few weeks ago mwahahaha _snip_). 

If you think this youngster has potential to run as a stallion, then no reason why you shouldn't grow him a bit more. The big problem arises in finding the right circumstances to keep him. So many stallions are not properly socialised. I seem to remember you have a few geldings? If he could live with them, then it would be perfect for him and would enable you to grow him to the best of his potential, physically and mentally. You also need to be prepared to spend a lot on producing him and obviously also accept the possibility of having his nuts off if he doesn't make the grade. 

My 26 yo stallion, RIP  , lived out with young racehorses for a while. He kept the peace in a pasture of up to 15 colts and young stallions. He wouldn't allow arguments or bickering. He was, however, very nasty towards geldings and we were lucky that the racehorse breeders wanted him on loan after he retired from eventing.


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## Kao (28 December 2010)

emlybob said:



			Hi Kao
I could get shot down for this but i would like to say that i do believe a horse (stallion or mare) is a product of their upbringing.  Our stallion happily turns out along side other horses and is stabled in a loddon type barn next to other horses with no problem.  Shut them away form other horses and they will turn into raging lunatics when they see another horse!!

I do believe if stallions are treated with respect and are actually allowed to be horses rather than a breeding machine they can be happy horses.  I know many people that run their stallions out with mares, and geldings alike with absolutely no problem.

I do also agree with the above comments in that if he is just average then is there any point keeping him entire. If you were only going to breed for yourself then what you do with him is completely up to you.  If it great to see someone talking sense on here in the fact that if he doesn't grade or isn't good enough you will geld him.  However there is the option of collecting and freezing semen from him and gelding him anyway, then you have the best of both worlds!!
		
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Totally agree! I've met some horrible stallions and they're usually shut away 24/7 on a big scale competition yard with no time other than training put into them.

I'm a big believer in "just spending time" with any horse, the pay off is huge and it's so rewarding  I may sound like a fluffy bunny for saying that though I'm also a big believer in not letting them get away with things because they're "cute". Manners are still paramount in behaviour IMO.

Ooh, that's a good option  I'll think about that! I would love to keep him entire, but if when he turns 3, fails his grading, shows no talent or he's just bog standard and/or possesses no qualities desired in any foal, then I wont hesitate to geld and bring on as another riding horse for myself  



Rowreach said:



Ok I'm not going to comment on whether or not you should go down this route, but what I will say is that even if a colt is easy to handle they cause logistical problems which are bad enough even if like me you are keeping him on your own yard. let alone if you are keeping him on livery.  I'm just not sure it will be practical tbh.  My colt is well behaved but he's a very big rising 2yo which means he has to be handled by those of us who know what we are doing, and he can't be anywhere near any of the fields with mares in or the fields that are next to my neighbour (who tends to lob mares in her sheep fields without letting me know, even though I've begged her to text me in case he's a bit close to the boundary).  I dread to think of the hassle if I kept him at livery, even if I could find somewhere to put him.  Probably the only places that would have him would want him kept in 24/7.

Just read the post above and wanted to say that my colt is very happy and adjusted and runs with geldings and is out most of the time, but I don't want any unplanned babies and I don't think my mare owning liveries would either, hence I keep him away from mares lol!
		
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I do have hesitations about keeping him at a livery yard, just for the sake that I've never had to deal with a public livery yard before. I'm looking into getting my own place in the near future, hopefully before he turns 3. 
I've asked around a few different yards, waiting to hear back, once I do I want to check out the facilities make sure there's minimal risk to him or the horses.

Accidents do happen and I'm setting myself up for it. But I'm going to take every precaution I possibly can. At the end of the day it's the welfare of the horse(s) that are my main concern, but given my circumstances at the moment I'm in no position to get my place right now (I have enough now for livery. But I don't think, at my age, I would be capable of running a whole yard to pay the expenses involved.) :/



Foxfolly said:



			I'd say go for it if you really like him and you are 100% confident that you can remain unbiased about his suitability as a stallion when he gets older.
I went against a lot of peoples advice on here 2 years ago when I bought my stallion...






OK slightly different as he is very well bred so does have the pedigree to back him up but at the end of the day he was an unbroken 4yo that was dirt cheap due to an injury he sustained as a 2yo. I have learnt a lot through asking select people on here (Henryhorn and Anastasia being the main ones!) also made a few mistakes but generally he has been very easy, he is easier to handle than my 15yo gelding who is a complete ****!!
We backed him ourselves (We are true amateurs) and he went to our local riding club loads in his first year ridden which was great for socialising him with other horses and he is now extremely well behaved around others at shows etc even when he has been covering, in fact he has been to group lessons on an evening after he has covered in the morning. He is treated exactly the same as the others except that he has his own paddock! I personaly think if you treat them too differently then that is when you have problems BUT I never forget that I have a stallion on the end of the rope (Or between my legs... lol!!) 
My boy has now turned into a strapping chap, he has 2 babies on the ground, more due 2011 and more interest from others wanting to use him next year too. 

This was him at the bramham stallion parade in June, a far cry from the scrawny 4yo I bought back in July 08!!





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Wow, he's absolutely stunning!
I have to say, you've definitely given me a lot of motivation. He doesn't even look like the same horse from the first picture.
You've done absolutely amazing work with him  Bet it's exciting waiting for his new babies in 2011.



XmasBalls said:



			Kao...

things to think to yourself...

Is he going to be talented? 
Is he going to be capable of achieving good affiliated results?
Has he got a good chance of passing a proper grading?
Am I prepared to throw lots of money down the loo? (Even having a decent stallion you still have to be prepared to spend alot of money that you won't get back!)

If you answer No to any of the above, don't bother!

There is many stallions in this country that are just NTR licensed or passed gradings as youngsters then never achieved anything in competition and disappear into the abis.

On the otherhand, buy the colt, keep the colt entire... make a decision when he is 3, but be prepared that the decision will be to geld and bring on as a riding horse to sell, because that will cost less than going down the stallion route... but if by the slim chance you find you have a superstar in the making, consider the Sport Pony route (if he fits the criteria) as they are for stallions upto 15.2h. Good luck whatever you decide 

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In answer to the questions:

No idea, hopefully. His sire has nice movement and a hell of a jump.
I'm hoping so, for me I think it's a bit too early to tell. Once I've bought him and he's put on *a lot of* condition then I'll hopefully see some of his potential.
I think he has, but each to their own. I think he's a nice stamp and well turned out he'd be stunning.
Have done on all my other horses  so, yep!

I do notice a lot of the graded stallions vanish and are somehow replaced with ungraded, poorly conformed stallions who people are paying top dollar to have their mares in foal to 

Definitely  That's what my plan is. I want to have him graded with the SPSS, if he passes, well I'll be over the moon! But I'm prepared for if he doesn't


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## Kao (28 December 2010)

MissTyc said:



			I have stallion and currently two colts (was three until a few weeks ago mwahahaha _snip_). 

If you think this youngster has potential to run as a stallion, then no reason why you shouldn't grow him a bit more. The big problem arises in finding the right circumstances to keep him. So many stallions are not properly socialised. I seem to remember you have a few geldings? If he could live with them, then it would be perfect for him and would enable you to grow him to the best of his potential, physically and mentally. You also need to be prepared to spend a lot on producing him and obviously also accept the possibility of having his nuts off if he doesn't make the grade. 

My 26 yo stallion, RIP  , lived out with young racehorses for a while. He kept the peace in a pasture of up to 15 colts and young stallions. He wouldn't allow arguments or bickering. He was, however, very nasty towards geldings and we were lucky that the racehorse breeders wanted him on loan after he retired from eventing.
		
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The yard I'm at at the moment is my work place. The YO has this mental image that stallions are evil and destroy everything (even though one of his mares has trashed thousands of pounds worth of stuff trying to get to another mare in heat or a gelding. his choice though).
I'm hoping they yard I go to, he can be turned out with his dad and my friends all have geldings too that we see regularly.
I'm going to get him out and about regularly and tag along to shows with Mum  I need to socialise myself too so it'll be good for both of us!
Luckily, the yards I've looked at have a lot of different horses and people but aren't too busy all the time.


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## gingerfilly (28 December 2010)

I have owned many colts and currently have a Section D colt and a C stallion and a A stallion 
I personally dont think you could have a stallion unless you have your own land. I know as a yard owner we wouldnt take any colts (unless foals that will be gelded) in for livery. 
I have my own colts/stallion and the only mares I have here at the moment are my own also, all the liveries are geldings thankfully. 
Stallions can cause a few problems on a yard, I have a stallion block on the yard, where only boys are allowed etc. 

I wouldnt have a stallion unless I was going to breed from it as I dont think its fair to have all those hormones etc and not be of use. 

I am sure you will be sensible though, and good luck if you do give it a bash. Like you I always leave gelding my boys till later to see how they good, temperment and all that


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## PapaFrita (28 December 2010)

I had the Little Cigar cut because even though he's nicely bred by a popular stallion and very very pretty, there are tonnes and tonnes of better-bred stallions available and because I know he'll have a happier life as a gelding.


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## Kao (28 December 2010)

True. There are tonnes of horses on the market at the moment, even nice stallions are going for nothing at the sales 

gingerfilly:
Yup, just want to see what he turns out like  would hate to go snip happy now to find he's actually breed worthy at 4 or 5 
I would kill to be able to have my own place for him, but in my circumstances (hence why my family think I'm crazy) it's just not in my budget to pay out a lot of rent each month. 
I have my savings for unexpected vets bills which I add too every month, then the rest of my money goes to paying my Mum for part of my "keep" and the rest is to go on livery when he arrives.

Not the best plan, but I'm more focused on having somewhere, even if it's temporarily, and getting him the heck out of the place he is now :/


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## koeffee (28 December 2010)

You sound a little like myself 20yrs ago! But breeding in this country needs to move on?mo. He may well turn into a nice pony but there are so many horses going for slaughter,you need to think what he will go on to do. I know we still need the happy hacks but there are enough horses by good stallions that dont go on and do much. If you can keep him a little older and see what he's like? But it wont be cheap. I have two stallions one rising 3yrs who is out with my in foal mares, which is not ideal but circumstances change and my new yard is still a couple of weeks from being built. My other stallion who is older is on full livery and i pay the price because he is a stallion.


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## hippomaniac (28 December 2010)

You may well have a superstar in the making, but keeping a Stallion carries many responsibilities, for example falling off or letting go at a show could have major consequences. I gelded a stallion with great bloodlines and lovely conformation, but the wrong attitude. he is a very happy gelding and is able to compete without worries.


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## magic104 (29 December 2010)

Quote "My gelding, special as he is, managed to cover a lot of mares (not just one or two...a lot) when he was with his old owners. The choice of mares leaves a lot to be desired,"

So out of the lot of mares he covered what have these offspring done?  It does not sound like he stamped his mark & without seeing him its difficult to judge, but he sounds average.  I dont see how his son therefore is going to add anything to the gene pool that cant be gained by what already is on the market.  Even if he turns out to be a superstar athlete, whats to say he will pass this on?  With his unknown pedigree you would have to be double careful with the mares as you just dont know what is in the mix.


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## Allover (29 December 2010)

I think you have been given a lot of good advice so far, all i want to add is you really need to work out WHY do you want to own a stallion. If your future plans involve owning\running a stud then i can see why you would think its a good idea, or if he was a horse good enough to potentially produce really decent offspring. If he were mine i would get him assesed by someone who knows what they are doing in the grading area you want to put him forward in. Even is he is not looking his best they should be able to see if he has the quality to make him stand out as sallion potential. 

The first foal my mare had is a stallion, i had to think long and hard as to wether to keep him entire as i have no interest in having a stallion for myself, They cost more to keep, you have to be really choosy about where you keep them and who is going to be handling them. I was really lucky to find another colt for him to run with when he was weaned and he went to a friend for backing etc. I ended up grading my lad and selling him as a 4 year old.


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## Bertthefrog (29 December 2010)

I have read this thread with interest. particularly the comments regarding socialising stallions. I have never worked at a stud, but have worked with several stallions over the years and I have to say, only three of those were the sort you had to watch, two because of the way they were managed, and the third was a fruitloop - although again, I am sure that was because of the way he'd been brought up. A shame as he was very talented.

I have an 18mth old colt, who I intend to leave entire for the next year. He had a horrific start in life and I want to give him every chance to catch up - plus his balls have yet to appear. He's gypsy bred and they do seem to be slow in that department!. He is currently turned out with two rda ponies at an rda centre! He has been no bother so far and is an absolute poppet.

I also freelance groom for a local livery yard that have a stallion there in livery. It is possible to find places provided the horse in question is well mannered. It is more difficult though and it has helped that I knew the people in question prior to asking them if they would take my chap!

I deal regularly with a 6 year old ID stallion who is turned out with mares and geldings. In fact he is probably the most laid back horse, entire or otherwise, that I have ever met.

I am sure that leading a 'normal' life is the key.


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## Dowjones (29 December 2010)

I won't repeat all of the points already made, but agree it is a long term, money draining commitment. There is also the possible chance that if you do geld him late, he may keep some stallion characteristics, therefore making him harder to sell on as a riding horse in the future.

As already said, one of your biggest problems will be finding suitable livery. We have a stallion on livery here, but turnout is restricted, we have to revolve certain things around him and personally I wouldn't go through the hassle of a stallion on livery again unless we had much better facilities. Luckily, he a mannerly horse, who's easy to do anything with, ride around mares etc.

Do you genuinely think he has the potential to be something special? There is a huge variety of quality stallions out there, who are proven, talented, with good bloodlines etc... When you say the sire has a cracking jump, how cracking? How far could he go?
From the pictures i've seen of Kao i wouldn't dream of buying a foal bred form him with a view to keep it entire. Just my opinion, but there was nothing stallion quality about him, or to be passed on? Not to mention the colt will have no breeding recorded on passport which will immediately put people off.


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## Irishlife (29 December 2010)

We usually keep our colts entire until they are three but only if we see potential in them as foals and their breeding is of commercial/performance value. They have to be showing quality with great movement from day one. You can usually tell an athletic foal from a not so athletic foal and their genetic potential comes to the fore in their attitude to life as well as the tangible qualities. Our colts are reassessed constantly and gelded as yearlings, two year olds or as three year olds or in rare cases they are left entire and sold on to studs.  

Handling hormonal boys is no walk in the park especially in youngstock classes and in public. Hormones will overcome good handling in a young horse from time to time.  Temperament does vary in uncut horses some are high as kites and others laid back. 

It is your choice at the end of the day but it sounds unlikely the horse will stand publicly because he would not be commercial enough and I think the days of "stallions down the road" are all but gone.  If you are going to keep the stallion for your own use and he is actively covering mares, then you do need good secure premises and accept that any livery yard will have clearly set out rules relating to your horse which may not be in his best interests.

Good luck with your decision.


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## volatis (29 December 2010)

As I am currently in Germany my homebred retained colt is on livery in Warwickshire. I did a lot of research into finding somewhere to send him that had the experience and facilities to manage young colts. he is barned over the winter and come the Spring will go back out into the fields with the other colts of the same age.

I will probably bring him over to Germany next year and back him and if I dont think he is going to pass his grading easily, or be the sort of stallion I would use myself, he will be gelded and sold as a riding horse. he is the first cotl I have retained that i felt worthy of being stallion material as hopefully he has the ability and attitude to back up his looks and pedigree.


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## ofcourseyoucan (29 December 2010)

personnalyy i wouldnt have him unless you have your own land and facilities! and i would also want him DNA d just to check he is actually by your own horse! not another py**** cross. good luck and wave goodbye to your money. he will cost you dear in every way!


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## Dolcé (29 December 2010)

We keep 3 (rising 3) colts at livery, one will be cut in spring but the other two (section A's) will be kept entire for as long as possible.  We did have problems to start off with because one of them just wouldn't stay in the field he was put in and kept going to see his gelding friend in the next field, he is now behind a high electric fence running at 10000 volts, which seems to have done the trick.  Until going in their paddock with an older gelding, they ran out in a herd of 13, mares and geldings, the mares have taught them excellent manners and the older geldings have taught them all about pecking order (they were right at the bottom, bless them) so we have some well adjusted boys.  My daughter is hoping to keep one entire so she can show him under saddle and we are just waiting to see which turns out the nicest of the two before cutting the other, we are also hanging on until they are fully mature and well developed.  If there is any sign of them being difficult then they will be cut immediately bbut up to now they have been an absolute dream.


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## justforfun (29 December 2010)

IMO I wouldn't keep a colt entire unless his breeding was good.
There are a great many well bred stallions out there that can offer their services, why keep another crossbred horse to be able to breed in this delicate climate!  have him cut, let him enjoy life without the worries of being a undesired stallion.
He will enjoy life far better without those worries.
Sadly he is nothing special and shouldn't be bred from IMO.
My boys are well bred, DNA tested and only used on approved ladies.


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## Kao (30 December 2010)

Thanks for all the advice guys


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## hippomaniac (30 December 2010)

Kao, I know it all sounds pretty negative but it is all sound advice, we stand 4 Stallions, all with totally different personalities. but lots along the way have been been gelded for one reason or anouther, always sad but better than producing foals that have an uncertain future. The sales are full of them. why not get your little colt geld him and enjoy the fact that he is by your boy and have lots of fun, you will then know that he will have a future with you, good luck and happy new year


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## Kaylum (30 December 2010)

Have worked with ID and TB stallys, have to say the TB's were just out of training and would go pretty wild after their first covering.  Anyway we bought Welsh Section D many years ago who was previously owned by some people who didnt know he was a full horse when they bought him, but they soon found out as he covered their shetland and the shetland had a foal and thats when they realised he was a full horse and they had him gelded.  Anyway back to the point, he was 4 when he was gelded and he was amazingly soft and kind.   You wouldnt even know his past, in fact it made him the horses he was.


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## Kao (30 December 2010)

Because, at the end of the day, if he still turns out to be what I would personally want for myself, and I have my own land, mares etc. Then there's no reason why I myself wouldn't have one or two foals then geld him.
I'm waiting till he's 3 mainly for development (he's already underweight and malnourished. At 1, he's had a bad start) and also because if he makes the grade for public standing (not that I'll stand him till years from then.) I want to keep him a stallion to approved mares.

Kaylum, the colts sire, my gelding, was gelded at 4 and he's turned out with mares and geldings. Wouldn't ever know he was a stallion or that he'd been used on so many mares. His temperament is amazing and aside from being a bit long in the back (to me he's long, but I prefer compact types) his conformation is pretty textbook.

I'm taking all the advice given into account, it's very helpful and hopefully I'll have a nice, healthy little colt by the Spring. Though I may need to pick some of your brains along the way 
I've found livery with amazing facilities that can cater to his and my every need. Knowledgeable staff, lots of other people to help out and they hold a fair few shows so when I move Kao too I'll have the full package for both of them 

Again, thank you for all the advice. It was very helpful and I'll keep you all updated


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## tristar (30 December 2010)

i bought a colt for myself to breed from, he is a cross bred, three races, i got him because i honestly could not find what i was looking for in stallion to cover a special mare that i had bred, i used him at 6 years old having waited to see the end result, the foal is nearly three years old, it is the best one i have bred, i could sell it to top competitors including a vet who deals in competition horses, but if they offered me 25 000 pounds i could not sell, he is unreplaceable and for me unique .
many of the stallions at stud are saturating the same bloodlines in the marketplace, depressing sales, and i believe not what people are always looking for, sometimes something different finds niche in the market and makes itself commercially viable, the only way to find out is to try.
grading is not always the route to take, it is someones opinion, you can licence stallions even part breds with their breed society, they are examined by a vet.
it is a huge commitment   to have a stallion, examine why you want to do this, and what it is about this colt that so inspires you, and if you go ahead please do it only when you have the right set of circumstances for your own peace of mind.
remember it takes many years to truly prove a stallion, maybe til it is 10 or12 years old, you don't have to cover many mares just the right ones, do it to breed good horses not as many people do to make money.


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## magic104 (31 December 2010)

I feel concerned that there are so many almost giving the green light here.  We are talking about a (and I hate to say this) bog standard sire, the like you will find thethered on verges up & down the country side.  Being bred by families that have been breeding them for years.  The dam I have not seen, but does not sound special, has no breeding (and no there is no problem with that.  Lack of competition results, well its bloody expensive business & time consuming getting out to shows).  Point is neither parent is OUTSTANDING & I doubt very much that they have managed to produce a son of enough quality or ability to justify passing his genes on.

There is nothing wrong with cobs, cob x or their offspring, but there are 100's of people already breeding them.  I honestly do not see how this poster is going to improve on what is already out there.  If I was, what 17?  Then I would be going the route of grading, because I sure as hell doubt enough knowledge has been gained to pick out a stallion potential.  Believe it or not I hate being this harsh, but there are people with far more experience who get it wrong on both sides (those that grade as well as those that put forward animals that clearly are not good enough).  Age does not bring experience, granted, but if UK breeding really is being raised, which mare owners are going to use a stallion of unknown breeding until he has proved himself?

Now I shall wait for the backlash, which is sure to come.


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## eventrider23 (31 December 2010)

I am afraid, and wait to be also jumped on, that I agree with Magic 104 here on this one.  Regardless of his temperament as an entire being good, there are just soo many stallions out there that the market is overflushed with them.....and more recently especially those of the gypsy cob variety.  The best of these and thus the ones that get the most mares are those coming from proven Gypsy bloodlines and ancestry, however in this case you do not have that.

I have experience working with stallions and geldings and I do believe that to stay entire they have to have that something special....as, after all, aside from the obvious, the life of the average stallion is by and large a solitary one, whereas as a gelding he would have a life lived with any and all horses as his sire does.

I had the same conundrum a few years ago in that I had a lovely PB Trak coloured colt out of a lovely welsh mare and he certainly had all the qualities necessary to warrant keeping him entire in himself....however his parentage is what made me geld him as he would undoubtedly have never received the usage of a similar stallion of better breeding.  I have never regretted the choice to geld him and only sold him a few months ago...in the meantime of which he played an irreplacable 'uncle' role to the other youngsters.  

So, my personal opinion in this instance would be to geld him.  Regardless of you using him on your own mare, etc. and grading him (which as you say if he failed you would then geld) but seriously....look at the number of stallions graded by CHAPS and the BSPA and work out in all honesty how many of them must receive enough mares to warrant being kept entire when they could have nicer lives as geldings.


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## Maesfen (31 December 2010)

No backlash from me Magic; agree totally with you.


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## MissTyc (31 December 2010)

I agree in principle, Magic104! 

My green light was based on the fact that OP said the sire has perfect conformation and a cracking jump ... and that wants to go through gradings and geld if it doesn't go as planned. I don't know what the sire looks like but if he's nice enough that he was run as a stallion  for a while (even if a bit freely by the sounds of it!) and jumps mountains, then why not retain his only colt offspring for a few years to see if he's inherited the sire's qualities?

One will remember that Greenbank Harlequin was bred from pretty humble origins!

_(and now I'm going to go through OP's posts to find the sire ...)_


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## eventrider23 (31 December 2010)

MissTyc said:



			I agree in principle, Magic104! 

My green light was based on the fact that OP said the sire has perfect conformation and a cracking jump ... and that wants to go through gradings and geld if it doesn't go as planned. I don't know what the sire looks like but if he's nice enough that he was run as a stallion  for a while (even if a bit freely by the sounds of it!) and jumps mountains, then why not retain his only colt offspring for a few years to see if he's inherited the sire's qualities?

One will remember that Greenbank Harlequin was bred from pretty humble origins!

_(and now I'm going to go through OP's posts to find the sire ...)_

Click to expand...


Not to cause arguement here Miss Tyc but I do not think you can fairly compare this colt to Greenbank Harlequin whose sire, Charleston Esquire was I believe bred by Brendon Stud and whose dam was of decent and noted TB breeding, making him in AES studbook terms eligible for pink papers.


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## angrovestud (31 December 2010)

Question if gypsy cobs where not able to go to hoys would we have so many? and would you get producers having them, when Chaps was run by Penny shepherd we tried to educate people to improve coloured horse breeding.


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## FairyLights (31 December 2010)

If you like the colt and think it has stallion potential then ,providing you have a suitable place to keep him,keep him entire for the time being. Have several knowlegeable people look at him and get them to evaluate him. You may have to pay for this advice. Take him to shows ,county level shows,not local. See if he is placed in the top 3. If he does well in the ring and acknowledged experts agree that he is stallion material then you can go ahead and use him. If he is down the line at shows and people think hes very average or worse then theres no point in breeding from him as theres plenty of mediocre colts and stallions around and its poinless having him entire. So then you can geld him.


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## MissTyc (31 December 2010)

eventrider23 said:



			Not to cause arguement here Miss Tyc but I do not think you can fairly compare this colt to Greenbank Harlequin whose sire, Charleston Esquire was I believe bred by Brendon Stud and whose dam was of decent and noted TB breeding, making him in AES studbook terms eligible for pink papers.
		
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Well no, but no one expected him to be what he is!
I may be biased though as I have a gelding off him from a very rubbish, long backed, pigeon toed, untalented mare (not mine, I will add!! Bought the gelding when he was 2) and he's a spit of his father (also hopefully soon in training with Penny like Harley was) ... 

As I said, I don't know the OP's gelding, but if he is as quality as she says with the jumping scope and perfect conformation then surely a colt of his stamp deserves his fair chance at the gradings?

(having now read more about the sire in question, I tend to agree with everything you've said, btw. Unless he photographs *very* badly, he's not really what I expected from the starting post here! ... so that, at this point, makes me a Devil's Advocate ... but my intentions are good and am very much against indiscriminate breeding ... then again, the OP says she is, too, so would one presumes do things by the book)


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## Kao (31 December 2010)

The sire's pictures on here are from when I first started schooling him properly. But he was learning.
I could've forced him into and outline for pretty pictures, but that's how he started and a week later he was going (and still is) very well for me in the school and out hacking.
No he isn't anything special yet, but if you expect a horse that's been started from scratch and ridden for all in all about 4months to be a top competition pony jumping affiliated and schooling at a high Dressage then sorry but that's not what I intended to do with him right now. I have the rest of his life to improve him to a stage where I think he's ready to go out and compete at a decent level.

We've all got to start somewhere.

As for the mare, she isn't mine and she's nothing to do with me. From what I was told she's in her late teens now and not ridden any more (too busy popping out foals left right and center I should imagine). 
Neither of the parents have any breeding, the sire leaves a lot to be desired to qualify being "Cob Stallion" material. For one I'd expect more natural feather and wider all round (he's clipped but worked, that's as wide as he's going to get).

I like the colt. I have the money and the time to produce him. I have knowledgeable people who, though they think I'm crazy, are on hand to help me with anything at any time. If he doesn't make the grade for me (since it will be my mares or mares I think are suitable he'll be covering) then it's the snip and he'll make another competition horse for myself.
He'll have a damn site better life with me than someone who's buying him to keep a stallion no matter what without bothering with grading, licensing etc. 

At least I'm trying to prove his quality before putting him on anything.

If you look at his sires first thread when I first got him compare that to this. Personally, when they said he had foals I felt like I was either going to tear the people to pieces or throw up on them for being such morons to breed something like Kao to anything.

After 5months of hard work, money and hope I got this.











A nice pony with an impeccable temperament and, though he's still nervous of other people, will make me a great competition pony. It's hard work trying to prove people wrong, and I got hundreds of bad comments about him that he'll never make it anywhere, I'd be lucky if I got past Prelim and that he'd never jump.
He's schooling better than most of the horses owned by the people who made them comments.

As for what inspiration do I have for the colt, easy, Kao. Because if that colt is in any kind of state Kao was then it's my job to make sure he has a better life from the moment he sets foot on my trailer till the day he dies.

ETA:
The pictures aren't that great. I hadn't ridden him for a week and a half prior to that 
and, apologies for the trainers. I didn't pack my boots *headdesk*


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## Allover (31 December 2010)

My question would still be why you want to own a stallion, as many of the other posters have said, there are hundreds of stallions out there to cover your mares. No one is doubting your riding or horse managment ability, what they do doubt is finding somewhere suitable for him to live (if you dont have your own place) with competant people handling him. The quality of life he would have as a stallion (most stallions lead a solitary life) is not as good as if he were gelded and why would you want the hassle. As far as i can make out most of the posters on here are speaking from experience. 

I personally do not think it is fair to keep animals entire if the are not going to be able to have regular "unloads", it must be incredibally frustrating for them.


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## Maesfen (31 December 2010)

Nice pony he might be and he'll make a nice gelding but I'm sorry, there's nothing there to grab me and say wow, what a nice sort.


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## Kao (31 December 2010)

Allover said:



			My question would still be why you want to own a stallion, as many of the other posters have said, there are hundreds of stallions out there to cover your mares. No one is doubting your riding or horse managment ability, what they do doubt is finding somewhere suitable for him to live (if you dont have your own place) with competant people handling him. The quality of life he would have as a stallion (most stallions lead a solitary life) is not as good as if he were gelded and why would you want the hassle. As far as i can make out most of the posters on here are speaking from experience. 

I personally do not think it is fair to keep animals entire if the are not going to be able to have regular "unloads", it must be incredibally frustrating for them. 



Click to expand...

I have found somewhere for him where he'll go out and have a normal life. Turned out and brought in and stabled next to other horses. I'm also moving my gelding there so they will go out together. He'll be far from solitary I can assure you.
I can't put a reason on why exactly I personally want a stallion aside from I've always clicked with them and always wanted one of my own. Granted, I didn't expect to be getting one like this but it's how it's panned out.

I want to get everything done properly with him and decide exactly what to do in terms of entire or gelding when he's 3 and I know briefly what he's most likely to achieve level wise.


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## Kao (31 December 2010)

Maesfen said:



			Nice pony he might be and he'll make a nice gelding but I'm sorry, there's nothing there to grab me and say wow, what a nice sort.
		
Click to expand...

He is a gelding


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## Kao (31 December 2010)

At the end of the day. I'm buying the colt.
I asked for advice and I got good advice from experienced people. To those people, thanks very much 

I'll decide what I'll do with my colt when the time comes.


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## Maesfen (31 December 2010)

Your prerogative of course but it's made it a bit of a pointless thread then as a good few people have wasted their time and energy giving their experienced views.


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## eventrider23 (31 December 2010)

Well said Maesfen - if you ask for advice you need to be prepared to take it on, not just ignore it and carry on as you intended in the first place when many people have spent the time to reply with good advice to you.


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## Allover (31 December 2010)

She asked for advice, she has weighed it up and made a decision based on what was said though I think she maybe just posted to confirm she was going to do it regardless of what was said 

Good luck with him, hope he turns out to be a superstar and wins everything he enters, has loads of babies and lives a happy and fullfilled life


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## spottybotty (31 December 2010)

Maesfen said:



			Your prerogative of course but it's made it a bit of a pointless thread then as a good few people have wasted their time and energy giving their experienced views.
		
Click to expand...

Maesfen the op has a habit of doing this on other forums.


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## Maesfen (31 December 2010)

spottybotty said:



			Maesfen the op has a habit of doing this on other forums.
		
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Lovely, now you tell us!  Which forums should I avoid in future?


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## JanetGeorge (31 December 2010)

Kao said:



			No he isn't anything special yet, 
>
>

A nice pony with an impeccable temperament
		
Click to expand...

Yep - he's a nice enough pony - but he's unlikely to EVER be more than that!  Obviously he can be trained to work nicely but he was NEVER stallion potential - and it's highly unlikely his son is either!

And yes, I'm a stallion owner - and every year I look at my colts WITHOUT the rose coloured spectacles!  Most of them get the snip (and they're pure-breds with good pedigrees!)  1 - or maybe 2, get run on for another year, and maybe 1 will be retained to go to stallion grading!

There are FAR too many 'ordinary' stallions around - whose only qualification to BE a stallion is a pair of testicles!   Hell, half of the stallions I see graded each year prompt the thought: "he'd make a NICE gelding!"


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## JanetGeorge (31 December 2010)

Allover said:



			She asked for advice, she has weighed it up and made a decision based on what was said though I think she maybe just posted to confirm she was going to do it regardless of what was said 

Click to expand...

I don't think this poster had any intention of 'weighing up advice' - if she had, she would be planning a vet visit now!


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## pintoarabian (31 December 2010)

My advice was freely given and comes from years of experience. Experience is learned from others or from one's own triumphs and tragedies. I feel certain that the OP is about to embark on a steep, and somewhat expensive, learning curve. It would be of interest to all to hear how the grading process goes for this indiscriminately bred colt and would request that the OP keeps us abreast of the colt's progress, together with pics. In the meantime, I stand by my advice in the hope that reason will prevail and no more foals of questionable quality will face an uncertain fate. I have spent some time today looking at various websites offering youngsters for sale. It is heartbreaking!


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## magic104 (31 December 2010)

Before I posted I had already seen a number of photos of the sire, hence my comments.  No one has to take the advise given, but for heavens sake dont go on about indiscriminate breeding then talk about keeping a mediocre colt entire.  I have said this before, I spent the best part of my teens around these types of horses/ponies.  They make fab ride/drive animals, do well on fresh air & I have a real soft spot for some of them.  They are a mix of natives (Welsh/Dales/Fell), clydes, shires, for the bigger horses. There are studs that specialise in them & have a far better understanding then I feel this poster does.  I am sorry but the sire does NOT have perfect conformation even for a gypsy vanner, gyspy cob, Irish Tinker, etc.  First off they dont have to have a huge amount of feather.  If you want to see variation then next time you are in Hemel, Boxmoor opp the railway station have look in the feilds there.  From about Apr/May until later on in the summer those fields are full of travellers & static travellers mares & foals.  Not all of them are feathered up, but they are still your bog standard nice tempered muck about with horse/pony.  We have a monthly sale just outside Buckingham, again full of these bog standard ponies, full feathered & otherwise.  We are already inundated with them, they have been bred for years & every now & again one shows a bit of talent for jumping or dressage, but just look at how many are bred & how many make it to a decent level.  They were not bred as competition horses/ponies for above riding club level anyway.  And I agree with another poster, would they be so popular if there was not a class at HOYS?  The Americans went mad for them for a while & there was a guy nr Liverpool breeding them almost for that market.  One or two of the larger ones have gone onto be Drum horses.

I wont post again on this thread, but basically, there are enough out there some good, too many like your now gelding.  How old are his eldest offspring?  Are any of them showing above riding club talent?  If not, again why would you think his son is going to?  A good horseman by the way can tell a decent horse with or without muscle, with or without weight.  As for the son again, though they go through the ugly stages, a good judge will know whether to keep him a bit longer.  I hope you have found him a nice secure place to stay as the last thing you want are any accidents because he has manged to get in with other liveries mares.  My friend had a Christmas Eve foal some years back because of a colt being left a bit longer at a livery yard.


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## Allover (31 December 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			I don't think this poster had any intention of 'weighing up advice' - if she had, she would be planning a vet visit now!
		
Click to expand...

I think that was obvious from fairly early on. 

Lets just hope her decision is not to the detriment of the ponys wellbeing


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## Dexter (31 December 2010)

We've currently got 3 colts. A rising 3 yr old smart welsh x appy spotty pony cob, nice conformation, lovely movement for his type and a really good temperament. A rising 2 yr old "should have been a sports pony but is gonna go way over height" out of a papered JA mare by a papered warmblood stallion who is CHAPS graded. A rising 2 yr old coloured colt out of an intermediate eventer TB mare out of the above stallion. I am in a position where I could run any or all of them on as stallions, but why the hell would I?? 

The first one is a gem and would undoubtedly get mares so long as I priced him right, and may well throw nice foals, but seriously, hes a pony cob of unknown parentage. The second one has reasonable conformation but not perfect. He moves beautifully, has a good temperament and has a hell of a jump, but again, no way! The 3rd one was almost retained by his breeder to be a stallion, but again, while hes nice quality and is bred to make an out an out eventer he is not good enough to earn the right to reproduce! 

The only reason they are still colts is because the weather caught us on the hop. They all have a lovely life, but they will damn certainly have a better life as geldings! 

Why not buy the colt and geld him? I know what its like to find one of your horses relations and want to buy them. I bought the JA mare who is the mother of one of the colts. I will probably at some point breed from her again as shes papered and has earned the right to reproduce by having nice conformation and movement etc and having become a JA in a very short space of time as well as having bred 2 nice foals already. 

If you want to stand a stallion spend a fair few years working on a reputable stud first, research the youngster that your buying and the market he'll suit, then get somewhere suitable to keep him, a lottery win wont go amiss either


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## tristar (1 January 2011)

it takes mystic meg to see the outcome, and who was it who said about the beatles, 'they have the wrong look and rock and roll is going out,' the rest is history.
if i had listened to others about my stallion he would'nt be one now, but then i always thought he was a beautiful swan, even at 18 mths and thin and hairy, but then i see what i see and others see what they see.
if we are talking about indiscriminate breeding lets look at the racehorse situation or the trotters or how about some of the continental stallions that are covering upwards of 500 mares a season, i find it hard to believe that they are as carefully and purposefully bred, as no stallion can be compatible with 500 mares, as someone who sets about breeding correctly as op is considering and putting in 100 per cent concentration on a few horses she has full right to explore the possibility, and that is what she is doing.


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## magic104 (1 January 2011)

And some people wonder why we are in such a mess!!  Take it you have not visited many sales.  I also take it that you have not seen the photos of said sire.  After your comments I bloody well hope not, otherwise I question your judgement on what you think makes a good stallion.  And I said I would not post on this thread again, but lord god help this industry.  We are talking about & I repeat, a type of horse that is bred in its 1000's, there is no need for a 17yo to add to it with yet another bog standard pony.  If she wants to breed then get a decent colt with the potential to add decent genes.  Jesus after reading some of the comments I wonder why some people in Austrialia think we in the UK are further advanced in our breeding programmes.

A stallion may well cover 500 mares, not all of them suitable, but at least they have an outlet, the dinner plate!!


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## Allover (1 January 2011)

tristar said:



			it takes mystic meg to see the outcome, and who was it who said about the beatles, 'they have the wrong look and rock and roll is going out,' the rest is history.
if i had listened to others about my stallion he would'nt be one now, but then i always thought he was a beautiful swan, even at 18 mths and thin and hairy, but then i see what i see and others see what they see.
if we are talking about indiscriminate breeding lets look at the racehorse situation or the trotters or how about some of the continental stallions that are covering upwards of 500 mares a season, i find it hard to believe that they are as carefully and purposefully bred, as no stallion can be compatible with 500 mares, as someone who sets about breeding correctly as op is considering and putting in 100 per cent concentration on a few horses she has full right to explore the possibility, and that is what she is doing.
		
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No it does not take "mystic meg" to see the outcome, it takes someone with an EXPERIENCED eye and knowledge of the industry (and an ounce of sense), and it takes a lot of money and effort. 

Just because the warmblood and TB stallions are, in your opinion, over done, does that then make it right to have thousands of below quality stallions dotted around the countryside indiscriminately breeding while rescue centers and sales are overflowing with unwanted and mistreated animals?

This is the problem with our society nowadays, especially the younger generation, they want it so they have it and ******* the consequences. 

FFS !!!


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## tristar (1 January 2011)

i spent 45 years looking and buying horses all over, including sales, most weeks looking at over 500 horses, i did in fact buy one colt at a sale who was later reserve champion at the royal international, and another i bought for 200 quid who was insulted left right and centre, and who grew into a beautiful horse who later won a dressage championship, where i live now i am lucky enough to visit the top sales for youngsters, which is my particular interest, a couple of years ago i bought a very scruffy colt ran him on, he is now at stud in belgium where standards are very high, so question my judgement all you like you are very welcome. 
its only a forum, op is only EXPLORING the possibility 
if i"m  honest i quite liked the picture of the now gelding who is sire of the colt in question.
i have a very young friend who breeds arab horses, i thought she's a bit young etc, however she is very successful and only 25 now, starting at 18 years, she has recently sold a black colt to sheike mohammed's daughter who breeds arabs in dubai, he is to be her stud stallion out there, so maybe its not quite fair to use age as a reason .

there is a in my opinion a market for specifically middleweight not too big riding horses of good trainable attitude and work morale.
the rescue centres are full because people don't take responsibility for their animals.


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## Allover (1 January 2011)

In which case you would have developed over the years an eye for seeing a decent horse regardless of its condition. I presume your horses are above "bog standard" every day riding horses and you see in them something that others might not because of the experience you have gained from watching hundreds of horses of differing qualities. 

I think what has got peoples goat on this thread is that the OP seems to have ignored out of hand the good advice she has been given and seems to have the attitude of "i will do what i like anyway regardless of the circumstances i am in". 


Well done to your Arab breeding friend


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## magic104 (1 January 2011)

Hi tristar, I did say in an earlier post that age did not necessary bring knowledge, but I stand by what I have said.  The now gelding is a nice riding type, but a stallion, no I dont think so.  As for his son, again there are 100's of them already, & 1000's already being bred.  Your young friend has sucess with Arabs, not a bog standard pony of unknown breeding.  We are only going to go round & round in circles with this.  Everyone can quote about the ugly duckling to swan scenario, but they are still very small.  We have a coloured stallion up the road who has had some succesful offspring across the board, but he has also has some throwbacks, not helped Im sure by his dam having no recorded breeding.  When you use any horse mare or stallion with unknown breeding you take a big gamble.  The difference is the stallion can do more damage as he has the ability to have far more offspring.


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## Alec Swan (1 January 2011)

magic104 said:



			And some people wonder why we are in such a mess!!  Take it you have not visited many sales.  I also take it that you have not seen the photos of said sire.  After your comments I bloody well hope not, otherwise I question your judgement on what you think makes a good stallion.  And I said I would not post on this thread again, but lord god help this industry.  We are talking about & I repeat, a type of horse that is bred in its 1000's, there is no need for a 17yo to add to it with yet another bog standard pony.  If she wants to breed then get a decent colt with the potential to add decent genes.  Jesus after reading some of the comments I wonder why some people in Austrialia think we in the UK are further advanced in our breeding programmes.

A stallion may well cover 500 mares, not all of them suitable, but at least they have an outlet, the dinner plate!!
		
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I'm rather wondering if this may end up as one of the sanest posts of 2011,  and we've barely started!! Well said.

Alec.


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## glenruby (1 January 2011)

I bred a very nice dun colt almost 5 years ago - my first homebred (and last for a while!). He was out of a Premier broodmare (very TB influenced ISH with breeding recorded) by a superb (IMO) Irish Sport Horse stallion - Boherdeal Clover. I received the mare in part payment for work done. She was in foal with the colt at the time and had a filly foal by the same sire at foot. His older full sister (then about 8/9yo) was a Grade A pony at the time of his birth. The colt was left with the herd (mare not covered again) and unhandled until approx 18mths when he was brought in and despite decent conformation, temperament and a good deal of athleticism he was castrated immediately. The owners of his full sister DNA typed her and traced her breeding na d when they discoverd she had a younger full brother offerd to buy him. He is now living a great life with children who adore him and has started competing in affiliated competition.
This foal was a very good mover (dam had a good jump but average movement) and has proved to be a very good jumper but I had (and still have) no desire to have a stallion and could see no good reason to keep entire at the time. There were better small stallions out there and tbh, Connemaras were and still are much more opoular pony sires than undergrown sport horses.

I did also previously buy a 2yo coloured colt by Touchdown. There certainly werent many (or possibly ANY) coloured entire sons of Touchdown on the ground when I bought this colt and this sire was quite popular at the time. It was a year after Lisalgot won the World Championships. I was the smae age as the OP and despite having more experience than her I was under no illusion that I would be capable of handling, breaking or riding this colt(he was only about 15.2hh when I bought him). I had him gelded about 3wks after purchse - while he was still at the previous owners home. Came home and turned away then backed him in Spring. In the meantime he had grown to apporx 16.1hh and was quite a handful (despite a fairly good temperament and being gelded). Just after being backed he was spotted and bought (for a rather large sum of money) by an Australian event rider. He had a good start in competition but has spent the last 18mths off work injured. Hopefully he will return to competition this year. Perhaps if he had come along years later i may have considered keeping him entire but I do think I mae the right decision to geld him.
Kao does not, in my eyes, have very good conformation and does not appear from the recent photos to have better schooling that most of the horses owned by people who have commented. I do think the OP requires a reality check.


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## hippomaniac (1 January 2011)

Ok this thread is going round in circles, but the young person needs to understand that as Angrove stud has said, so much has been done to improve the breeding of coloured horses and ponies. 
 Just a small look at the sire reveals conformation faults i.e very strait hocks, also where would he be graded I may be wrong and correct me is I am, but dont CHAPS, BSPA & sports pony Society require varified breeding.
The Sire looks very sweet, but really if the colt takes after him, NOT STALLION POTENTIAL.


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## GeorgieLee (1 January 2011)

well this thread got people talking!! I have a 2 yr old (in may) welsh d who is currently entire and as long as he stays as well behaved as he is now, he will stay entire, as he is for showing so the more crest and presence he has the better plus I have no plans on selling him either but if I have any problems with him then he will be gelded, anyway the only problem I have is finding livery for him, i have a new forest gelding that is his companion and I currently rent a private yard with 2 stables and a paddock but i have moved house and am now struggling to find anywhere to keep them because I cant afford to keep both at a main livery plus most dont take colts anyway, but I cant sell his companion as he will have nothing to turn out with. so just make sure you have somewhere to keep him as he gets older.
all this grading stuf etc I know nothing about but if your planning on keeping him then I belive its entirely up to you whether you geld him or not  good luck


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## Dowjones (1 January 2011)

OP, you say Kao is your inspiration to keep the colt entire due his temperment and nature. That is not enough to go on to try and grade a stallion. There are far too many coloured cobs bred for this already, it would be sesible to NOT add to that pool. 

No one is dissing Kao, he looks like a smart cob who will go on to be a great little horse. BUT he is not stallion material, therefore i doubt the colt is either. What is Kao's natural jump like? Is he super talented? Does he move nicely with no effort?
These things are spotted in colts, BEFORE the riding and training at young ages. And it's the qualities that come naturaly that justify putting the colts through the gradings and the hardship of being a stallion. To produce quality horses, not more allrounders, we have penty of those as it is.


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## emlybob (2 January 2011)

Dowjones said:



			No one is dissing Kao, he looks like a smart cob who will go on to be a great little horse. BUT he is not stallion material, therefore i doubt the colt is either. What is Kao's natural jump like? Is he super talented? Does he move nicely with no effort?
These things are spotted in colts, BEFORE the riding and training at young ages. And it's the qualities that come naturaly that justify putting the colts through the gradings and the hardship of being a stallion. To produce quality horses, not more allrounders, we have penty of those as it is.
		
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I do agree.  I also didn't reaslise that Kao was only 17.  You have a long life ahead of you with horses.  

I agree with everyone else, there is so many average horses in this world, who breed from something average?

Leave the breeding of Vanners to people that know what they're doing, much safer and less hearbreak for all involved


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## s4sugar (2 January 2011)




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## magic104 (2 January 2011)

s4sugar said:








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As the mother of an 18yo girl I could not agree more with this.  But in their defence there are plenty of older people who also think they know better & where breeding is concerned are responsible for far more of the frugles then the younger generation.


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## Millyard Rejects (2 January 2011)

I get to see so many horses at sales and through the dealer I mind horses for and through the rescue and rehoming I do for different charities.
9 out 10 are coloured cobs,the other 1 is tb!
Honestly Kao may be a lovely natured horse but gelding him didnt do him any harm? His colt foal might be better off having the same treatment?

really when people say " i am against indicrimminate breeding" then say but I keep my half bred/cob/arab/shetland/welsh/purple pink spotted pony entire because he has super manners it really ticks me off!!!   
Unless your horse has been the offspring of graded proven horses then breeding should be left alone? who wants to own a horse that is 20 generations away from a pedigree animal and is ugly to anyone but the owners rose tinted view? and is quite likely never to be good enough for grading(whatever grading you might follow!)
Irish cob society grades stallions-guess what,mostly black and white cobs with feather,and trot well for harness work.There isnt a shortage in the ranks trust me!!


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## hippomaniac (2 January 2011)

Moragulous Mulled Wine said:



			I get to see so many horses at sales and through the dealer I mind horses for and through the rescue and rehoming I do for different charities.
9 out 10 are coloured cobs,the other 1 is tb!
Honestly Kao may be a lovely natured horse but gelding him didnt do him any harm? His colt foal might be better off having the same treatment?

really when people say " i am against indicrimminate breeding" then say but I keep my half bred/cob/arab/shetland/welsh/purple pink spotted pony entire because he has super manners it really ticks me off!!!   
Unless your horse has been the offspring of graded proven horses then breeding should be left alone? who wants to own a horse that is 20 generations away from a pedigree animal and is ugly to anyone but the owners rose tinted view? and is quite likely never to be good enough for grading(whatever grading you might follow!)
Irish cob society grades stallions-guess what,mostly black and white cobs with feather,and trot well for harness work.There isnt a shortage in the ranks trust me!!

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Well said


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## silver zaanif (2 January 2011)

keeping a colt on a livery yard is 99.999999999% going to be a nightmare, if there are ANY accidents or possiable accidents your colt will be blamed. Also mature stallions brought up correctly are totaly different to handle from a 1-4yrs colt and if you do not have experience in that area or your own facilities it will be a bad idea. If he starts displaying behavioural problems geling him may be o litle to late..

 he will almost certianly end up having to live alone, and if he is good enough to remain entire i suppose you would want to stand him at public stud, how will you cope with visiting mares or the cost of sending him away to livery at a stud farm? If you oly want to us him on a few , or your own mares then why not grade him then collect and freeze semen and geld him.


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## tristar (3 January 2011)

I am very impressed by your account of how you are training your youngster, you are quite right in saying you have all the time in the world and that he will continue to improve all his life, and most of all you not trying to impress anyone by forcing him into an outline, (it will come when he can work all through his body and all his joints are suppled by the school movements) which is the ruination of many horses, he is still changing his teeth, and his spine is not fully developed until he is five, follow your instincts, devote 100 per cent to your horse and you will be rewarded.
at your age the special vision of your life and dreams is very clear and unsullied, do not let your own special talents and self confidence be undermined
i feel your ideas are very close to my own and have confidence that you will make the right decisions, it is never an easy road to be different.


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## crazycoloured (3 January 2011)

Kao,please think long and hard about what you are letting yourself in for.Personally i think you should geld him.Unless you have your own place(facilities)  and the room to take visiting mares should you chosse to use your colt at public stud.You will also need a bottomless pit of money and be prepared to part with a lot of ££££'s,,if you kept the colt on a livery yard and say you had to leave for some reason what would you do then.I know a lot of the livery yards around here wont accept colts/stallions so its quite limited.plus as others have said if he dosent have a pedigree etc you have to think to yourself would he appeal to mare owners,possibly getting someone to look at your colt first would be a good idea.think sensible and practical!!


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## Alexart (3 January 2011)

I agree with most of the other threads here - I'd geld him, looking at the quality of the sire and if he is anything like it, then he is not stallion quality at all, yes he's a lovely average pony and a nice gelding, of which there are tons like him, but not good enough to be producing more of himself.  
You've said so yourself that he is not so well bred and is only £400 which to be brutally honest says it all, it sounds more like a rescue which should not be producing more of itself which could end up the same. 
A colt with stallion potential is a very expensive thing and only goes up in value as it gets older, for most breeds a potential stallion quality colt will set you back £4000+, even the gypsy horses out of top sires and dams - they are the only ones you will get potentially valuable offspring from and people will want to use. Yes there are the occasional fluke colts that slip the breeders net and do turn into swans but they are few and far between and usually of known breeding or a particular breed.  With an unknown breeding such as this who knows what you would get - I don't know many mare owners with good quality animals who would want to risk spending all that money to use a stallion of unknown origin just to get a random that they could pick up for a quarter of the price at any horse sale - I think you would most likely get the wrong sort of people using a horse like this - the type that sell on dragon driving for example!!

Having owned stallions myself for years - I have 2 at the moment - they are a huge responsibility and very costly to keep, insure, health tests at the beginning of every breeding season including tadpole counts, stable - I had extra strong 14 x 14 stables built with heavy duty doors on and double gates hung at 6ft every where to make sure stallions don't accidentally meet with horses they don't get on with or mares in season - mine are out with company 24/7 and in at night in the winter - but they can get very protective of their herd! Fencing - I have spent a fortune on 6ft fencing and you need 20ft between paddocks so they can't be tempted - even then you have to be careful as they will climb!!  I would certainly never entertain keeping a breeding entire on a public yard - the potential costs involved IF you find somewhere to take him are huge, especially if something goes wrong and you end up in court for damages etc. I don't even think you can get insurance for a breeding horse if you are under 18? 
You can never be ill!, never go on holiday without leaving vast quantities of instructions behind along with the very experienced handler you leave in charge that you trust totally - they are a HUGE commitment, what happens when you go to college/uni?  I know you may think you know what you want now but a horse can live 20 or 30 yrs - do you know what you will want in the future? - will this random stallion be sale-able if you decide to change your mind?

Also how would you have visiting mares on a public yard and be able to offer effective disease control for your stock let alone the peoples horses already on the yard? - it would be a logistical nightmare!
It is very costly even having a stallion to use on your own mares - I bred to sell on as a hobby and to keep a few for myself, I have stopped now as the costs have just become ridiculous and I've started up an art business!, so now I only stand my boys via AI, but I have only ever JUST if I'm very lucky covered all my costs if all has gone well and no major disasters - but I certainly don't get any money for my time, and I have my own land and facilities.  
And it is a nightmare finding the right homes for horses - you need to be able to have the space, grazing etc to keep whatever you don't sell for whatever reason - some are accident magnets and you may end up keeping them for years if not for life - can you afford to keep a huge amount of horses on a livery yard - or rather as you are only 17 - can your parents afford it?!  Plus you have to think of money for passports/vaccinations/microchips/gelding colts/advertising/feed/farrier/scans/swabs/bloodtests etc - it soon adds up!!

If I were you I would get some work experience on a stud farm, that will get you knowledgeable on horse behavior - it is not just as simple as sticking 2 horses in a field together and letting them do it naturally - 95% of domestic mares have never seen a stallion so have no clue how to react - they can react very violently even when in full season!!  You have to be pretty clued up on how a mare reacts to teasing if she is either going to stand for him or kick the crap out of you and your stallion - breeding horses is by far the most dangerous thing you can do with a horse and you always need several people on hand to help you and who know what they are doing - they need to be insured too just incase!!!
You need to save up a huge amount of money and buy your own spot, I'd either start with a really good proven broodmare and breed exactly the sort of colt you want from a really well known sire, or invest alot in a stallion potential colt and keep your fingers crossed it turns out as you hoped!!  
You then just have to save up to promote it and prove it, if you wait you'll also have gained plenty of knowledge of the market you are aiming at, will be old enough that potential clients will take you seriously, have learnt what mare owners want and what horses compliment each other and at what makes a stallion quality horse.

I have bred a lot of colts and only kept 2 to run on as entires, all the rest we have gelded as I didn't want any going to a miserable solitary life, which is what happens to most stallions.  One of mine I gelded as a 4yr old as he was running fences, which annoys me!, and becoming too big for his boots - and he hadn't even covered a mare, so despite having the conformation/breeding etc he just wasn't the 110% temperament wise I expect from a stallion so it was nuts off!!!  The other one we're thinking of sending away to be professionally backed now he is old enough at 5, but his manners are impeccable - so you can never buy a colt and know 100% that it is even going to make the basic grades!!
The old saying of 'if you want to make a million with horses.....start with 5 million!!' - is VERY true!!!


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## magic104 (3 January 2011)

tristar said:



			I am very impressed by your account of how you are training your youngster, you are quite right in saying you have all the time in the world and that he will continue to improve all his life, and most of all you not trying to impress anyone by forcing him into an outline, (it will come when he can work all through his body and all his joints are suppled by the school movements) which is the ruination of many horses, he is still changing his teeth, and his spine is not fully developed until he is five, follow your instincts, devote 100 per cent to your horse and you will be rewarded.
at your age the special vision of your life and dreams is very clear and unsullied, do not let your own special talents and self confidence be undermined
i feel your ideas are very close to my own and have confidence that you will make the right decisions, it is never an easy road to be different.
		
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No it is not an easy road to be different, but where is the common sense in all this?  Do you think the people giving advice here have nothing better to do then destroy someones dreams?  In this instance a reality check is a must, otherwise it will be horses that are destroyed!


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## Maesfen (3 January 2011)

Echo Magic again and Alex, your post should be made a sticky, excellent!


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## pintoarabian (3 January 2011)

Alexart very eloquently sums up the collective advice given to Kao to base her decision on common sense and market forces. Kao is to be commended for her determination in hoping to prove the potential she sees in her gelding, Kao. I am sure that she would get more pleasure in doing the same for his gelded son than in keeping him entire. The evidence is there for those that care to visit the site mentioned by Alexart that there are many more entires out there that shouldn't be. The consequences are there for all to see. What price a life?


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## tristar (3 January 2011)

in this post, was referring to the comments made by people on her yard, like the gelding will never make a showjumper, he'll never get further than novice or elementary etc,  please don't take what i say out of context.
i believe she' s starting the training well, as i don't think that dressage is about the wow factor, its about collection developed slowly over a long period, she would do well to study the iberian riders, the posture and seat, and the way the horses use themselves because of their correct training, and with showjumping to achieve the desired result correct balance to enable the horse to meet each obstacle on the right stride with confidence and impulsion is only reached by good training.
the remarks were not directed to anyone on this forum, but the op who has been subjected to these unkind comments while riding her horse.
only mystic meg or god knows how he will turn out


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## misspepperpot (3 January 2011)

I would hazard a guess that OP has seen a pony for sale by her own beloved pony for a small amount of £££'s but cannot afford the additional ££££'s to get him gelded on top and so has come up with this great idea that she can run him on and save herself a few quid in the short term.
If she can't ever afford to rent her own place, I do wonder how she will ever be able to afford to pay to get him graded, I wonder if she thinks he will grade for £20 and a packet of salt and vinegar?!!!

Kao, i have 2 colts, one is just lucky we bought him after the weather had changed for the winter come spring he will lose his nuts- he is a gypsy cob type and he is highly likely homozygous and a decent enough boy- but a breeding prospect?? not likely. He has no breeding and cost less then meat money.

The other is being run on, but he has pedigree, looks, a unique colour and a perfect temperment, his sire is graded, his grand sire is elite graded. However, i am aware it will from next year cost me ALOT of money to send him away to be produced for potential grading and in livery to stand him somewhere (stallion livery is £100 plus a WEEK).  He will not get anywhere near enough mares to cover these costs, do you really think yours would?!

My 2 are on a small livery yard BUT it is a very small yard with only 4 other horses none of which are mares, there are no yards around us either.  I think i am very lucky and next year I will be very poor  I hope your parents have a big bank balance if your hell bent on wasting some money.


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## gonebananas (3 January 2011)

As I first read this post the other day and saw there was no bloodlines or competition background to this horse I knew I would personally geld him and stuck with that idea all the way through this thread.

However I would do the same only if the horse showed talent or had the bloodlines but as a lot of people have said there's already so many stallions out there and unwanted foals. Its also a much more uncomplicated life to be gelded. 

I am 17 myself, I bred my first foal at 16 and got a filly, I said if I got a colt it would be gelded as the bloodlines would not have been great enough to breed from. But I did breed for my own personal use and out of a good stallion(arab) that is a national champ etc. The filly has turned out to be nice but if she was a colt not nice enough. You've gotta look at it with open eyes and stop dreaming!


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## freckles22uk (3 January 2011)

I bred a colt foal 4 years ago, (Appaloosa) and decided to keep him entire along with another colt foal we also bred that year.. this was my first dealings with a colt, as all my horses have been mares, but we bought them up firm but fair and they were socailized with the other horses regually (the mares) 

last year we had one of the colts gelded (Moonshine) as my daughter wanted to bring him over to the UK and we knew how hard it was to keep a stallion in the UK, but ive kept the other stallion 'Harley' entire, and he is a dream, I can hack him out with my mares, he lives out 24/7 with his paddock next to the mares, with a few feet between them, and until this summer he shared a paddock with Moonshine, but I had to seperate them as Moony was the boss and would pinch Harleys feed...lol..

OK, hes had his moments, escaping sometimes, but Ive got my own land in the middle of know where..so its not a big problem and hes easy to catch..and this year after covering a mare he thought every time he saw a mare it was for covering, but that was soon and easily sorted. 

BUT if he had of been a problem then the nuts would of been straight off!!  the reason im keeping him entire, as I would like to breed from him here in Spain, hes got good breeding, good conformation, an excellent nature and Appaloosas are very rare here in Spain..
plus having a stallion over here is no big deal... its more rare to see a gelding.. 

and he is a real sweetie.. BUT I never forget the fact that he is entire...


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## Kao (4 January 2011)

Kinda glad this fell through now actually.
Sellers messed me about so I'm sticking to my comfort zone. Just the patchy pony for me now  Hopefully the colt wont end up in the wrong hands :/


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