# Accidental killing of foxes



## Hebegebe (30 March 2009)

POWA want to make accidental chasing and killing of wold mammals by dogs illegal.  Effectively banning many people from having their dogs off the lead in areas where foxes, deer, squirrels, mice or other wild mammals are present.

Approximately 100,000 foxes and numerous other animals are accidently killed on the roads.

Should it be illegal to drive a car down a road which a wild mammal might be crossing?


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## joe_carby (30 March 2009)

yes course it could. oh no wait that would be an inconvienience (spelling) to the people who know nothing about it as well as us


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## Grey_Eventer (30 March 2009)

oh dear god...will they ever stop... no i doubt it!


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## weebarney (30 March 2009)

Thing is i wouldnt let my retired greyhound loose where my pet rabbit is because i know it would probably kill it, in fact the greyhound doesnt get off the lead all that much as i know she might run away or she might chase something . On the other hand my little mongrel is off the lead quite a lot as i know she is unlikely to chase anything and if she did see something of interest a quick shout and she will come back to me. So i think its a case of using common sense.


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## combat_claire (31 March 2009)

Regardless of whether Weebarney's mongrel comes back immediately it is the act of chasing that they wish to see made illegal - nothing to do with the duration of the chase. 

Surely chasing quarry is a natural instinct in canines and should be encouraged, not suppressed by keeping them on a lead at all times.


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## Scratchline (31 March 2009)

Surely chasing quarry is a natural instinct in canines and should be encouraged, not suppressed by keeping them on a lead at all times.
		
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And fighting dogs/guard dogs should be running around off leads killing also??


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## Hebegebe (31 March 2009)

She didn't mention killing.

My dogs chase animals sometimes.  I can't see the harm in it.

They love chasing squirrels and why not.  At the end of the day the squirrels run up a tree.

I know they will chase them and they do.

Why should I be made a criminal for that?

Making people criminals over such nonsense matters just devalues the concept of crime.


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## ladyt25 (31 March 2009)

My dogs chase squirrels and rabbits and have previously (well one who's rather adept at rabbit hunting) eaten rabbits when they've caught them. I have tried to stop them and shouted at them but it is their natural instinct, it has also only ever happened on our own land. Our stable cat regularly catches and eats rabbits (not the blooming rats he's supposed to get!).

What would be counted as a 'wild animal' and what is a pest? I would not actively encourage my dogs to kill anything and, let's face it they stand little chance of catching a squirrel or indeed a deer (they are worn out long before the deer is). It's natural. Rabbits, deer, squirrels, mice and rats are effectively prey animals and so being killed by another animal is mother nature's way in reality.

I guess the exception is a fox - that is a predator NOT a prey animal but then again my dogs are v v unlikely to be able to chase and attack a healthy fox. In all the years we've had our dogs and we have/had a family of foxes living in woods bordering our field, our dogs have never shown much interest in chasing them as the fox has soon outrun them and vanished.

I don't agree with an unfair 'hunt' of an animal where that animal has no chance of escape but mother nature can be cruel and a natural chase of prey by a predator is how life goes.


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## kerro05 (31 March 2009)

everything is getting far out of hand if we had to protect pest all our life we would be bombarded with them !!!!


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## combat_claire (31 March 2009)

I guess the exception is a fox - that is a predator NOT a prey animal
		
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But before man in his wisdom made the bear extinct in this country, the fox was a prey animal as well as a predator. Fox hunting in its traditional sense seeks to correct the imbalance in the ecosystem following this extinction, as the fox currently has no top predator in the wild. 




			I don't agree with an unfair 'hunt' of an animal where that animal has no chance of escape but mother nature can be cruel and a natural chase of prey by a predator is how life goes.
		
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So by that reasoning you should be in favour of fox hunting! This only has two outcomes - complete escape or a quick death. There isn't any escape from a snare, the chances of outwitting a lamping expedition must be similarly low and poison condemns them to a slow and painful death, no antidote there either.


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## combat_claire (31 March 2009)

Didn't Kate Hoey once remark that foxes were rats with a good PR team...  :grin:


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## ladyt25 (31 March 2009)

I am not pro or anti fox hunting as such - personally i don't get any pleasure from seeing anything killed so i wouldn't go and join in an activity where that was the aim. I do wholly agree with you yes, a healthy fox should be able to escape so, in reality hunts really would never catch that many foxes, only sthe sick or injured. However, what I don't agree with is foxes that have gone to ground being dug up.

And yes, if man hadn't interfered in the first place then fox numbers would have naturally been kept in check by the likes of bears/wolves. The intevention of man generally messes up nature, that's awell known fact. 

I certainly do not agree with poisoning or snaring at all.

Just a thought though - if the accidental killing of ANY wild animal was to be illegal, would it just be if killed by dogs? What about cats killing birds, mice etc etc?? Hmm, would love to see that enforced! hehe


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## Scratchline (31 March 2009)

She didn't mention killing.

No, I did. In relation to natural intstinct. Just because something is in a domesticated dogs instict it doesnt mean we automatically should accept it as okay.
The examples I gave were dogs that would naturally wish to attack other dogs or those who's instinct is to attack people.
If those types of dog need to be controlled and can be, then all dogs could be on a lead and controlled. I dont really see a difference.


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## Hebegebe (31 March 2009)

They could be I grant you that but should they all have to be on a lead?  That's my question.

I love taking my dpgs out and I love them being off the lead.

In actual fact they have hardly ever been on a lead and one of them is completely unleadable.

yes they chase squirrels the odd deer and a hare or fox if one pops up and yes i am aware of that.

Is that really that bad and is it bad enough for me to be made a criminal because I do this?

Isn't going out for some fresh air and letting the dogs have a good romp around on one's own property a symbol of our freedom?  I know it is for me.


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## Scratchline (31 March 2009)

My dogs chase animals sometimes.  I can't see the harm in it.

They love chasing squirrels and why not.  At the end of the day the squirrels run up a tree.

I know they will chase them and they do.

Why should I be made a criminal for that?

Making people criminals over such nonsense matters just devalues the concept of crime.
		
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I am not sure you would feel the same if it was a bigger, badder dog chasing your little pooch. Perhaps with the other owner suggestinghe knows his dog will chase yours but he cannot see the harm in it.
You never know. If your dog was sick.....or old.....it may just get torn to shreds (


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## Hebegebe (31 March 2009)

So do you think that the law should require all dogs to be kept on leads then?

I probably wouldn't be that pleased but if it didn't hurt my pooch I wouldn't be that bothered.

My dogs have only ever killed one rat and maybe two or three rabbits.


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## endymion (31 March 2009)

I'm campaiging for it to be illegal for cats to kill other animals. Mudering b*stards!!!


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## Hebegebe (31 March 2009)

I'm campaiging for it to be illegal for cats to kill other animals. Mudering b*stards!!!
		
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Well from a strict animal welfare point of view my cats have caused far more suffering than my dogs and probably than the local hunt so I can kind of see the point in that.

At the end if the day I own them so I have responsibility for them.

However they keep the rats and mice down and its better than poisoning them which would kill the barn owls.


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## Scratchline (31 March 2009)

But before man in his wisdom made the bear extinct in this country 




			In about 500AD lol lol lol
		
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## Hebegebe (31 March 2009)

But before man in his wisdom made the bear extinct in this country 




			In about 500AD lol lol lol
		
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and lynx, they were predators of foxes too as well as wolves and wolverines.
		
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## Scratchline (31 March 2009)

So do you think that the law should require all dogs to be kept on leads then?
		
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I wouldnt argue against such a law and it would have many advantages from a safety point of view.
On a very serious note, many of us keep our dogs on leads to protect other peoples pets, even other people. I see no reason why all dogs couldnt be excercised that way if deemed necessary.


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## Scratchline (31 March 2009)

and lynx, they were predators of foxes too as well as wolves and wolverines. 

SSSSSSHHHHHH. She didnt mention them!! )


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## Hebegebe (31 March 2009)

But there aren't any other people's pets where I take my dogs and if there were they can bugger off!


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## Scratchline (31 March 2009)

" Get orf my land"! ) lol lol


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## peakpark (31 March 2009)

We have two whippets which need a proper run off the lead. It would be cruel to keep them on a lead and thus never let them out of a walk (or slow trot if the walker jogged).


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## weebarney (31 March 2009)

Its not a case of keeping them on a lead at all times its keeping them on a lead if they have a dog which chases and tries to kill animals is somewhere it is likely to go chasing after animals and trying to kill them or if somone has a dog which isnt trained and doesnt listen to them it shouldnt be off a lead in the first place.


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## Hebegebe (31 March 2009)

When my dogs are off the lead they sometimes give chase but then I call them off.

with deer they just bugger off at three times the speed so not a problem

with squirrels its the same thing

yes I am sure the dogs try to kill the wild mammals but the never do.


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## Silverspring (31 March 2009)

*** You are ignoring this user ***

Hahahaha!  :grin:


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## marlyclay (31 March 2009)

POWA want to make accidental chasing and killing of wold mammals by dogs illegal.  Effectively banning many people from having their dogs off the lead in areas where foxes, deer, squirrels, mice or other wild mammals are present.

Approximately 100,000 foxes and numerous other animals are accidently killed on the roads.

Should it be illegal to drive a car down a road which a wild mammal might be crossing?
		
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Well try telling my jack russells they are not allowed to kill the cute little furry rats that they find in our barn.(If they could speak they would salute POWA with two fingers.)They have been bred for just that purpose for centuries as have all breeds of dog over time it is their natural instinct.
Although if you look at the little dears in my avatar they look more at home eating,sleeping and farting on the sofa!!


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## peakpark (31 March 2009)

Come to think of it, I'm surprised Labour haven't already made it an offence to have a dog off the lead. It's the sort of law that's right up their street:
More petty rules and regulations.
Would affect otherwise law abiding people.
Would be virtually unenforceable.


Anyway, it's not too late for them to pass such an act - if they've got time in between watching porn films at the tax payer's expense.


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## Scratchline (1 April 2009)

We have two whippets which need a proper run off the lead. It would be cruel to keep them on a lead and thus never let them out of a walk (or slow trot if the walker jogged).
		
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Cruel? Why?


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## Hebegebe (1 April 2009)

The RSPCA defines five freedoms that anyone looking after animals should try and ensure they have.

1 Freedom from hunger and thirst 
  by providing enough fresh water and the right type and
  amount of food to keep them fit.
2 Freedom from discomfort 
  by making sure that animals have the right type of
  environment including shelter and somewhere
  comfortable to rest.
3 Freedom from pain, injury and disease 
  by preventing them from getting ill or injured and by
  making sure animals are diagnosed and treated
  rapidly if they do.
4 Freedom to behave normally 
  by making sure animals have enough space, proper
  facilities and the company of other animals of their
  own kind.
5 Freedom from fear and distress 
  by making sure their conditions and treatment
  avoid mental suffering.


Surely having a good run around in the open air is natural behavior for a dog?


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## Scratchline (1 April 2009)

[quoteWell try telling my jack russells they are not allowed to kill the cute little furry rats that they find in our barn.(If they could speak they would salute POWA with two fingers.)They have been bred for just that purpose for centuries as have all breeds of dog over time it is their natural instinct.[/quote]

Good post????????? Tell my staffies they are not allowed to rip your little Jack Russels to bits if they find them in the street. They have been bred for that purpose for centuries, it is their natural instinct now!

See the flaw in your arguement now?! )


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## Scratchline (1 April 2009)

*** You are ignoring this user ***

Hahahaha!  :grin:
		
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Oh sweet little princess. You act all grown up ignoring me then like a two year old posting to me that you are. ROFLMAO at you x x

If you have nothing to add to the thread go and shovel some S**T )


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## Hebegebe (1 April 2009)

No flaw. 

Jack Russels aren't rats.

We poison rats by their millions.  We don't do the same to Jack Jussels.

Killing a rat with a Jack Russel causes it massively less pain and distress than killing it with poison.

In a similar vein we shoot deer to control them.

Chasing them off with dogs causes them considerably less pain and damage than being shot.


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## Scratchline (1 April 2009)

The RSPCA defines five freedoms that anyone looking after animals should try and ensure they have.

4 Freedom to behave normally 
  by making sure animals have enough space, proper
  facilities and the company of other animals of their
  own kind.


Surely having a good run around in the open air is natural behavior for a dog?
		
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I am not going to argue with you. Of course they should be allowed to run, safely for all other users of said space. 
The huge flaw in the five freedom nonsense from those idiots at the RSPCA ( suprised you quote them?), is of course number 4. 

Natural behaviour?? Guard breeds like to bite people and fighting breeds like to fight eachother. All of a sudden, "natural behaviour", sounds a bit dodgy to insist on being encouraged by 'law'.


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## Hebegebe (1 April 2009)

well i don;t quite agree with you.  Guard dogs shouldn't be allowed to bite people but they should be allowed to bite.

Hunting is about as natural behavior as you can get for dogs so it should be allowed withing a defined context.

My dogs love rooting around in the undergrowth hunting rats and mice etc.  I'd have thought most people's do.

Hunting and being hunted is as natural as it gets.


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## Scratchline (1 April 2009)

No flaw.
		
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There is if you hate those bloody, little, snappy Jack Russels bud. Send in the killer hounds I say. Rip em to shreds whilst their owners are forced to watch! Twenty of them in a pit with one staffordshire bull terrier. Start the clock, minute only!

P.s. We have five lovely little pet rats ;O) Even went into Mole Valley Farmers Nr Newquay, Cornwall to ask if they supplied rat food. No came the answer, only poisen!!! lol lol


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## Hebegebe (1 April 2009)

Natural behaviour?? Guard breeds like to bite people and fighting breeds like to fight eachother.
		
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I let my dogs fight.  they don't any more because they have established a pecking order but I didn't step in when they did.

When a young dog is growing up and wants to take control it is inevitable that he will have a period of confrontation with the current leader.


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## Scratchline (1 April 2009)

well i don;t quite agree with you.  Guard dogs shouldn't be allowed to bite people but they should be allowed to bite.

Hunting is about as natural behavior as you can get for dogs so it should be allowed withing a defined context.

My dogs love rooting around in the undergrowth hunting rats and mice etc.  I'd have thought most people's do.

Hunting and being hunted is as natural as it gets.
		
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Oh no! Just posted. Dont now tell me you have any Jack Russels?! lol lol ))


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## Hebegebe (1 April 2009)

Ah well if I set my dogs on your rats you'd have cause for complaint but not if I set them on the rats in my barn 

Mind you i am sure you'd prefer a quick death for them from the jaws of a dog rather than squirming in agony for hours or days filled with Mole valley's chemicals?


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## Hebegebe (1 April 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat-baiting

1 rat per 2.2 seconds - exemplary animal welfare standards as I am sure you would agree!


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## Scratchline (1 April 2009)

[quoteI let my dogs fight.  they don't any more because they have established a pecking order but I didn't step in when they did.

When a young dog is growing up and wants to take control it is inevitable that he will have a period of confrontation with the current leader. [/quote]

Yep, with you all the way. Never get involved if possible and that is with a GSD male who is eight, three year old female staff and two year old male staff. All intact still with GSD top dog. Yet never major aggro because I dont interfere. Its the only way IMO.


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## Scratchline (1 April 2009)

Ah well if I set my dogs on your rats you'd have cause for complaint but not if I set them on the rats in my barn 

Mind you i am sure you'd prefer a quick death for them from the jaws of a dog rather than squirming in agony for hours or days filled with Mole valley's chemicals?
		
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Absolutely )  You should see our living room though. Big cage with the rats always active in the evening. And three stupid dogs, sat by the cage (behaving), with their heads going backwards and forwards in unison watching the bloody rats. Its like a doggy TV that cage!


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## Scratchline (1 April 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat-baiting

1 rat per 2.2 seconds - exemplary animal welfare standards as I am sure you would agree!
		
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Lol lol  Like a man with a hoe!  Must fly, still decorating (
Take care bud, speak soon.


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## peakpark (1 April 2009)

We have two whippets which need a proper run off the lead. It would be cruel to keep them on a lead and thus never let them out of a walk (or slow trot if the walker jogged).
		
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Cruel? Why?
		
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Because they need to RUN and take proper exercise.
You can't know much about dogs if you don't realise this 

Anyway, I thought John Major's  government passed an act about dangerous dogs, though it doesn't seem to be enforced very well.


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## Hebegebe (1 April 2009)

It'd be cruel to the dog walker to have to run as far and as fast as the whippets,  Especially if the old joints were getting creaky!


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## Scratchline (1 April 2009)

Because they need to RUN and take proper exercise.
You can't know much about dogs if you don't realise this 

I used to work lurchers all the time so dont give me the "you dont know anything", nonsense please. ) The thread is about a proposal so yes, you could stick your whippets on a treadmill, indoors and run them into the ground if you wish.

Anyway, I thought John Major's  government passed an act about dangerous dogs, though it doesn't seem to be enforced very well. 

Yes they did. The most unworkable, cruel, stupid law any government has ever introduced. Dont get me started on that one!  lol lol lol Kenneth Baker should have been shot!


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## peakpark (1 April 2009)

If you're an anti what were you doing working with lurchers?

If, however, you really did work with lurchers then you should know they need proper exercise. 
But judging from  one of your previous posts, you seemed to think it perfectly acceptable, indeed preferable,  that they should be kept on a lead going no faster than a walk.
It sounds to me typical townie stuff - anti hunting but don't bother about exercising dogs properly.
Also, I'm surprised you condone keeping caged animals.


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## Bunce (1 April 2009)

It is absolutely ridiculous that hunts are allowed out into the countryside with packs of dogs.  This simply cannot be done without causing unacceptable levels of disturbance to wild mammals irrespective of whether they are chased or killed.


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## combat_claire (1 April 2009)

Without the country sports that you blithely seek to ban, our countryside would be much the poorer - research by anthropologists based at the University of Kent's Durrell Institute have done much work on this topic:

In a paper published in Nature magazine in 2003 they wrote that private landowners involved in shooting or hunting were more likely to maintain existing woodland and hedgerows on their land and most likely to plant new woodlands and hedgerows. 

http://www.kent.ac.uk/anthropology/dice/research/england_hunting.html

Hardly in agreement with your claim that we cause huge damage to the countryside and the ecosystems within it. No wonder nobody believes a single word that POWA say any more.


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## Scratchline (1 April 2009)

If you're an anti what were you doing working with lurchers?




			What am I anti about. Have you actually had the courtesy to ask before making fecking assumptions?!




			If, however, you really did work with lurchers then you should know they need proper exercise. 
But judging from  one of your previous posts, you seemed to think it perfectly acceptable, indeed preferable,  that they should be kept on a lead going no faster than a walk.
It sounds to me typical townie stuff - anti hunting but don't bother about exercising dogs properly.




			Typical townie???? More country than you and not prepared to make stupid assumptions just because YOU cannot see a way to excercise your little pooch within legal guidelines if needs be. I stopped working lurchers because I believe it far more cruel than shooting them which I now do.




			Also, I'm surprised you condone keeping caged animals.
		
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What a silly, childish little thing to say! LMAO at you )
		
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## Hebegebe (1 April 2009)

You think working lurchers is crueller than shooting them?

Shittingfuck you're nit suggesting shooting the dogs as well as the deer are you?


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## Scratchline (1 April 2009)

You think working lurchers is crueller than shooting them?

Shittingfuck you're nit suggesting shooting the dogs as well as the deer are you?
		
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LOL LOL Only after my staffs have taught the lurchers a lesson for all the rabbits they have scared )


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## peakpark (1 April 2009)

Dear me, Scratchline, you really went off on one there!
You can dish it out, but you can't take it.


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## combat_claire (1 April 2009)

*picks the toys up and puts them back in the pram*


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## Scratchline (1 April 2009)

Dear me, Scratchline, you really went off on one there!
You can dish it out, but you can't take it.
		
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Now that is funny. If you think that was me going off on one you obviously dont know me )
Presuming all who criticise certain forms of hunting are townies is a pretty pathetic way of discussing these subjects. Some of us may have been far more heavily involved in animal culling/sports whether legal or illegal than your good selves but have opened our eyes to what is/was really going on.


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## Scratchline (1 April 2009)

You wish )) Trust me, you will know if I ever get wound up but it will take far more than ignorance lol lol


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## zigzagzig (1 April 2009)

"Without the country sports that you blithely seek to ban, our countryside would be much the poorer - research by anthropologists based at the University of Kent's Durrell Institute have done much work on this topic:......."

At this point I dozed off.


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## weebarney (1 April 2009)

scratchline, did you not realise that if you think that ripping wild animals apart with dogs is cruel then that makes you a townie?


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## marlyclay (1 April 2009)

[quoteWell try telling my jack russells they are not allowed to kill the cute little furry rats that they find in our barn.(If they could speak they would salute POWA with two fingers.)They have been bred for just that purpose for centuries as have all breeds of dog over time it is their natural instinct.
		
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Good post????????? Tell my staffies they are not allowed to rip your little Jack Russels to bits if they find them in the street. They have been bred for that purpose for centuries, it is their natural instinct now!

See the flaw in your arguement now?! ) [/quote]


No i don't see your argument.You wouldn't find my jacks loose on the street ,i am a responsible dog owner.It would seem that you sadly are not.Which is a shame for your staffies.I love staffs they are a highly intelligent and loyal breed of dog and yes they have been bred to fight other dogs which is why you would not willingly allow them to be loose on the street in the first place.Your point is flawed and deeply irresponsible.


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## Hebegebe (1 April 2009)

Quite agree!  Killing rats with dogs is good.  Killing other dogs is bad.

It's not hard!


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## weebarney (1 April 2009)

To those posting claiming it is cruel to keep a whippet on the lead i would have to say that is rubbish, I have an adopted ex racing/hare coursing greyhound from a recognised greyhound rescue charity. In the literature you recieve with the dog is advice on exercising them and it states that they will do fine with 2x 15 minute walks a day as they tire quickly. Even after their racing/ coursing days are over they still have it in them to chase and kill small furry things including cats and small dogs. As they are sighthounds they can see small things moving in the distance and just go for it and before they know it they are lost or could easily end up being hit by a car. Is it not more humane to keep it on the leader when neccessary to prevent some poor person seeing their pet dog or cat ripped apart in front of them?


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## Hebegebe (1 April 2009)

I don't know about whippets but my dogs have never killed a cat or a dog.

They do sometimes chase my cat but such is life!


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## FestiveSpirit (1 April 2009)

I too have ex-racing greyhounds from a recognised greyhound rescue charity.... oddly this charity suggests 20-30 minutes of exercise twice a day, and also clearly states that although greyhounds are used to walking on leads and do so nicely (as they are required to do when in training) it is also important for them to be allowed to run free in a safe &amp; appropriate environment.

As a responsible sighthound owner I ensure that my dogs are exercised twice a day in such an environment - they understand recall and therefore do not get "lost" and there is no possibility of them being hit by a car.  They also do not have the opoortunity to "rip apart" some pet dog or cat!

A responsible sighthound owner will NOT keep their dog on a lead all of the time - they will ensure BEFORE they take on such a dog that they have the proper facilities available to exercise it safely and responsibly.

Mine are exercised in the large XC field at our livery yard and yes - oh my goodness! - they DO occasionally chase and kill rabbits!!!!  As this is entirely natural behaviour for them it does not concern me in the least....


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## lastrebel (1 April 2009)

Clare 



			I don't agree with an unfair 'hunt' of an animal where that animal has no chance of escape but mother nature can be cruel and a natural chase of prey by a predator is how life goes.
		
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So by that reasoning you should be in favour of fox hunting! This only has two outcomes - complete escape or a quick death. There isn't any escape from a snare, the chances of outwitting a lamping expedition must be similarly low and poison condemns them to a slow and painful death, no antidote there either. 

So from what you have said you must hold terrier men with the same contempt as I do.


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## Hebegebe (1 April 2009)

I don't know a lot about terrier work but I suspect it causes less suffering than lamping.

I could be wroing though, educate me.


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## weebarney (1 April 2009)

omg i better tell the bloke who came out and did the home visit that his advice is completely wrong and that he should never have rehomed that greyhound with me as i dont have a xc field with rabbits for them to kill. 
Better break it gently to the greyhound that unfortunately my secure garden is not enough for her and she must return to the kennels, better still send her back to her previous owners who were going to give her the bullet at only 2 years old.


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## lastrebel (1 April 2009)

Well BASC say lamping is ok so it must be.
Terrier men kind of lose the pro arguement about healthy foxes getting away and there being a fair chance of escape for the fox.
Oh and the main reason I despise fox hunting. which is a shame really because to be honest I agree with a lot of the pro arguements but if you mix with scum like that then...........
Shame none of them read otherwise it would be amusing to hear them try to defend themselves.


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## Hebegebe (1 April 2009)

Well BASC say lamping is ok so it must be.
Terrier men kind of lose the pro arguement about healthy foxes getting away and there being a fair chance of escape for the fox.
Oh and the main reason I despise fox hunting. which is a shame really because to be honest I agree with a lot of the pro arguements but if you mix with scum like that then...........
Shame none of them read otherwise it would be amusing to hear them try to defend themselves.
		
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I don't allow digging out on my land


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## Hebegebe (1 April 2009)

now now WB this is a grown up forum!


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## weebarney (1 April 2009)

Is it?


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## weebarney (1 April 2009)

Anyhow i dont go out accidently killing anything so i have nothing to worry about. 
If anyone comes acroos the perfect place for my dog to be off the lead for every walk please let me know!
It must have perfectly secure boundry that she cant climb through or jump, no small furry things, no rabbit holes that she might catch her delicate legs in, no access to roads, within walking distance of home.......


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## lastrebel (1 April 2009)

And thats why Hebegebe I believe there is a compromise to be had here.


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## Hebegebe (2 April 2009)

Do you drive a car?


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## Scratchline (2 April 2009)

scratchline, did you not realise that if you think that ripping wild animals apart with dogs is cruel then that makes you a townie?
		
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lol lol I realise that, that sort of attitude by certain pro hunt supporters is the very reason they cannot "unite", those of us who do live and work in the countryside. Had this ever have been about town versus country the law would never have been achieved because of the strength of a united countryside vote!  The reality is that most people in the countryside do not want anything to do with hunting or those involved because they believe it to be cruel and causes unecessary suffering both by the chase and the kill.

The running down of wild animals with dogs is not about welfare or conservation. It is about sport. And bloodsports have no place in our society. They live in the past with dog/cockfighting, bull and badger baiting. The live in the bad old days, the shame of our ancestors.


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## Scratchline (2 April 2009)

Quite agree!  Killing rats with dogs is good.  Killing other dogs is bad.

It's not hard!
		
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PMSL )) Marlyclay obviously completely missed the point I was making as expected lol lol lol  Now I am a knuckledragging hoodied thug who sets his dogs on other peoples???

Oh to be a responsible dog owner bud!


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## Scratchline (2 April 2009)

I don't know a lot about terrier work but I suspect it causes less suffering than lamping.

I could be wroing though, educate me.
		
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Basically its "underground", ( excuse the pun), dog fighting with only one of the dogs willing and the other a wild fox. Anyone who would argue against this should view the scars on digging dogs and compare them to pit fighting dogs.

The difference between pit fighting dogs and digging is that in the pit, a dog can "choose", not to continue the fight and it is over, both live. In digging, one dog, the wild dog ( fox), is murdered for want of a better description. The terrriers terribly suffer. The fox terribly sufferers. And in my honest opinion dog fighting is less cruel and should be legalised before digging although both are abhorant and have no place in our society!!!


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## Scratchline (2 April 2009)

P.s I was of course talking about 'real', dog fighting, a test of gameness. NOT todays problem mostly involving the Asian community with no rules, which often result in death of one or both dogs.

Sorry if that sounds in any way racist. It is not meant to be and a simple truth about the people invovled.


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## Scratchline (2 April 2009)

To those posting claiming it is cruel to keep a whippet on the lead i would have to say that is rubbish, I have an adopted ex racing/hare coursing greyhound from a recognised greyhound rescue charity. In the literature you recieve with the dog is advice on exercising them and it states that they will do fine with 2x 15 minute walks a day as they tire quickly. Even after their racing/ coursing days are over they still have it in them to chase and kill small furry things including cats and small dogs. As they are sighthounds they can see small things moving in the distance and just go for it and before they know it they are lost or could easily end up being hit by a car. Is it not more humane to keep it on the leader when neccessary to prevent some poor person seeing their pet dog or cat ripped apart in front of them?
		
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Excellent post, well said )


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## Hebegebe (2 April 2009)

"The running down of wild animals with dogs is not about welfare or conservation."

That wasn't the point of this thread.  The point was why should it be a criminal offense if someone takes out a dog and it flushes out, chases or kills an animal by accident and yet not be if someone takes out a car and drives it into a wild  animal by accident.

Millions of wild animals die on the roads a few thousand die as a result of pet dogs killing them.

As far as pet cats are concerned yes hands up I have defintely killed one (80 mph on the M6) and almost certainly killed and if not horrifically wounded another.


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## FestiveSpirit (2 April 2009)

omg i better tell the bloke who came out and did the home visit that his advice is completely wrong and that he should never have rehomed that greyhound with me as i dont have a xc field with rabbits for them to kill. 
Better break it gently to the greyhound that unfortunately my secure garden is not enough for her and she must return to the kennels, better still send her back to her previous owners who were going to give her the bullet at only 2 years old.
		
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Glad you can supply such a mature unemotive response to my post WeeBarney  

Personally I have no problem with dogs (or horses) being humanely PTS instead of being rehomed to unsuitable homes where they get inadequate exercise


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## combat_claire (2 April 2009)

So from what you have said you must hold terrier men with the same contempt as I do.
		
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Not at all, so long as they stick within the MFHA codes of practice and the Hunting Act, the decision regarding the disposal of a fox has to lie with the landowner - if he keeps game birds and wishes to see terriers used to get rid of said fox then I have no issue with terriers being used to dig the fox before it is shot with the humane killer. The outcome will be the same, a clean kill.


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## Scratchline (2 April 2009)

[quoteThat wasn't the point of this thread.




			Nor was the subject of digging out )
		
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## Scratchline (2 April 2009)

[quoteNot at all, so long as they stick within the MFHA codes of practice and the Hunting Act, the decision regarding the disposal of a fox has to lie with the landowner - if he keeps game birds and wishes to see terriers used to get rid of said fox then I have no issue with terriers being used to dig the fox before it is shot with the humane killer. The outcome will be the same, a clean kill. [/quote]

What is the terriers role in this "clean kill"?!


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## Hebegebe (2 April 2009)

From my understanding it's flushing the fox out to be shot

legal under the Hunting Act


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## weebarney (2 April 2009)

I'm sure the charity your greyhounds came from would not be too pleased knowing that they are supposed to be retired yet still used for catching rabbits. 
You are obviously upset that i stated 2x15 minute walks instead of 2x 20 minute walks and for that i apologise.  Reallty quite petty dont you think.  
I dont know if you realise that the greyhounds are actually trained to chase and kill, yes it is in their breeding but the actual training plays a huge part. So to make out its ok for them to be going round killing rabbits because its in their breeding is rubbish, I have been un learning what my greyhound has learned and it is going very well, we have a pet rabbit which she went beserk about when she first saw it but now she doesnt bat an eyelid at it while it is out in its run.

On a different note i would love to know how you taught your dogs recall mid chase? And how you taught them you find it ok for them to kill rabbits but not dogs and cats? 

 Some people just enjoy seeing things run for their life then die


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## weebarney (2 April 2009)

yes i do


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## Hebegebe (2 April 2009)

Ah well to get back to the point why should it be illegal; for a dog to accidentally kill a wild mammal and not a car?

Shouldn't it be illegal to drive cars down roads that wild animals cross?


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## combat_claire (2 April 2009)

So you won't even consider the independent scientific evidence that is presented to you. It rather makes me wonder whether there is any point at all continuing this debate. Still I don't believe in quitting so I shall keep on showing up just how ridiculous the arguments that you and your ilk are presenting. 

Even Bunce has gone deathly silent on this issue...


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## FestiveSpirit (2 April 2009)

I'm sure the charity your greyhounds came from would not be too pleased knowing that they are supposed to be retired yet still used for catching rabbits. 
You are obviously upset that i stated 2x15 minute walks instead of 2x 20 minute walks and for that i apologise.  Reallty quite petty dont you think.  
I dont know if you realise that the greyhounds are actually trained to chase and kill, yes it is in their breeding but the actual training plays a huge part. So to make out its ok for them to be going round killing rabbits because its in their breeding is rubbish, I have been un learning what my greyhound has learned and it is going very well, we have a pet rabbit which she went beserk about when she first saw it but now she doesnt bat an eyelid at it while it is out in its run.

On a different note i would love to know how you taught your dogs recall mid chase? And how you taught them you find it ok for them to kill rabbits but not dogs and cats? 

 Some people just enjoy seeing things run for their life then die
		
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Please read my original post properly.  I clearly stated that my greyhounds sometimes come across rabbits during the course of their daily walks, and occasionally have been known to chase and kill them.  This does not mean that I use my greyhounds for catching rabbits, it means they sometimes do - shock horror - if THEY wish to do so!!!!!  I am extremely friendly with the rescue organisation where my dogs have all come from, and I am quite happy for you to contact them and tell them this happens if you like - PM me and I will give you their details  

As for greyhounds having to be trained to chase and kill - rather than doing it by instinct - I am absolutely PMSL sitting at my desk here!  I have had two show-bred whippets which had never seen a rabbit in their lives until they chased their first one through pure instinct... also my second greyhound has never been trained or raced as she did not grow large enough, so she was dumped in Ireland and was rescued as a starvation case.  Yet strangely she still chases rabbits without any prompting from me/any other human/any other dog.

In addition I am not remotely "upset" by your responses, I merely pointed out that exercise OFF the lead is infinitely preferable for a greyhound, which is a sprinting dog and likes short bursts of intense activity rather than hours (or minutes) of plodding along on a lead.

I have not taught my dogs to return to me "mid-chase" as you suggest, I simply do not allow them to get into a position whereby they might chase little fluffies when I dont want them to.  I have had sighthounds for the past 20 years now and have NEVER had an instance where they have chased a pet cat or dog, I ensure that I keep a watchful eye to prevent this situation happening.

As for some people enjoying "seeing things run for their life then die" then I will have to take your word on that, you obviously know far more than I on that matter


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## weebarney (2 April 2009)

If you read my post correctly i said training plays a big part! not the only part!  My greyhound does get off the lead to run yet she has never chased or killed anything while i've had her, i wonder where you have gone wrong in the instances yours have killed animals. Do you not have any problem with yourself allowing your dogs to course when the rabbits could well have young in their burrow who will slowly starve to death due to your actions?   
Do you believe dogs bred for fighting should be allowed to fight? after all its their insinct as well! Should Peado's be freed from prison as that is their natural instinct to interfere with kids? 

Sounds like this law will be brought in to control people like you who enjoy/encourage/allow their dogs to kill wildlife then plead its either natural or an accident and not aimed at the regular dog owner.

Its like when the hunting ban was coming in all we heard was tack shops would go out of business, farriers would lose their jobs, horses destroyed, none of these happened(no suprise their) oh please change the record.


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## weebarney (2 April 2009)

Ah well to get back to the point why should it be illegal; for a dog to accidentally kill a wild mammal and not a car?

Shouldn't it be illegal to drive cars down roads that wild animals cross?
		
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It is unfortunate when animals are killed by cars and i doubt if many people actually intend for their car to strike an animal. The problem is the people who are hell bent on killing animals with dogs and it is a very easy excuse to use,' sorry me lord it was an accident its in their breeding you see',


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## FestiveSpirit (2 April 2009)

If you read my post correctly i said training plays a big part! not the only part!  My greyhound does get off the lead to run yet she has never chased or killed anything while i've had her, i wonder where you have gone wrong in the instances yours have killed animals. Do you not have any problem with yourself allowing your dogs to course when the rabbits could well have young in their burrow who will slowly starve to death due to your actions?   
Do you believe dogs bred for fighting should be allowed to fight? after all its their insinct as well! Should Peado's be freed from prison as that is their natural instinct to interfere with kids? 

Sounds like this law will be brought in to control people like you who enjoy/encourage/allow their dogs to kill wildlife then plead its either natural or an accident and not aimed at the regular dog owner.

Its like when the hunting ban was coming in all we heard was tack shops would go out of business, farriers would lose their jobs, horses destroyed, none of these happened(no suprise their) oh please change the record.
		
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Oh dear, I had hoped for a rational debate on this matter but this is obviously not going to happen so I shall not be responding further, thank you


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## weebarney (2 April 2009)

Rational debate, i think you meant you would like me to back down and agree with you, well theres a shame.


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## FestiveSpirit (2 April 2009)

Rational debate, i think you meant you would like me to back down and agree with you, well theres a shame.
		
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No just to clarify for other readers, a rational debate means a debate with someone who does not appear to think that rabbits are all little fluffy bunnies called Flopsy, Mopsy, Cottontail and Peter    Or a debate with someone who does not draw ridiculous comparisons to the killing of a rabbit by a greyhound to organised dog fighting....


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## CAYLA (2 April 2009)

What a mixed and strange debate, I have 6 lurchers, inc whippets, a bull x lurcher, deerhound, and they run free of their lead, they do not attack other dogs or cats and they will chase rabbits......and indeed, they can be recalled in mid chase  :smirk:, of which I rarely do, because they rarely catch,(said rabbit, dissapears through fence) dog returns, I dont see this as a blood sport, as see it as me walking in order to exercise them, and them chasing as they naturally would, I did not go their for the intention of killing, but it a rabbit is killed, I wont go home and slit my wrists with guilt :crazy:

Dog fighting is no comparison to walking your dog, how can 2 dogs thrown into a pit, with no route of escape, to fight to the death, one dog can not "choose" to run/hide, and if one is exhausted or injured, it will still be on the recieving end of the dog still able to fight, it will then be dragged from the pit, and in most cases, electricuted, shot, stabbed or killed/disposed by the cheapest or easiest method.

I dont believe in placing a terrier down a hole or shooting an animal, this is not a fair fight/and gives no route of escape or chance to flee, surely doing this, is killing the strong and the ones that would survive given the chance of a fair get away, lamping is surely a fair way to allow the rabbit/hare to escape and is a test of whits and speed against 1 dog and 1 rabbit/hare/fox and gives the wild animal a fair chance of escape.

If I was given a choice of being thrown in a pit with someone wanting to kill me, a bullet in my head at close range or a chance to flee, I would choose the latter, atleast then I was given a chance and I may get away.
I also have to say, Im appauled with the suggestion of a dog recieving such inadequate exercise :crazy:, if people want their dog on a lead for whatever reason, aggression, chase instinct, bad recall, inexperience and lack of knowledge to train(that is fine) IMO not cruel......but whatever the reason, don't be lazy, a dog needs exercise and a descent amount at that, my dogs are out no less than 1 and a half hours a walk, at 3 walks a day, inc my 16 year old whippey x grey for 1 of the walks, so unless their is a medical reason/or dog is unable for any reason, there is no excuse for offering such inadequate exercise.
My akita never gets of the lead out in the open, she is walked for 3 hours in a daily period on her lead, I would deam myself a irrisponsible owner if I did not offer this exercise, me being lazy is not going to give her the exercise she needs :crazy:
It is very important to allow dogs to work off energy for welfare/mental and behavioural reasons.


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## weebarney (2 April 2009)

all you need to do is google a few greyhound rescue organisations and check out what they recommend as far as length of time being exercised goes, i think you will be in for a shock as its definately not hours per day!

I dont understand why some people want to shy away from the whole dog fighting issue, or maybe i do.  If its ok to go around letting your dog kill animals due to its breed and instinct then how is it bad letting a pair of dogs fight who have been bred for and have instinct to fight.


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## lastrebel (2 April 2009)

{Quote} as i have said before the whole point of foxhunting was to kill foxes and the use of terriers was an important tool to that end , if the farmer wanted the fox killed . if it was a healthy fox or a scabby old thing and the farmer wants it dead and its gone to ground then what else would you use , cymag ???

intresting  most of your fellow hunters have been telling me the killing of the fox is a side dish.


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## lastrebel (2 April 2009)

{Quote}Dog fighting is no comparison to walking your dog, how can 2 dogs thrown into a pit, with no route of escape, to fight to the death, one dog can not "choose" to run/hide, and if one is exhausted or injured, it will still be on the recieving end of the dog still able to fight, it will then be dragged from the pit, and in most cases, electricuted, shot, stabbed or killed/disposed by the cheapest or easiest method.

Ok so the difference between dog fighting and fox hunting is ???


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## CAYLA (2 April 2009)

A fox can RUN!, surely not all foxes are caught? im very sure all dog fights are fought, as like I said, there is no escape route.

Im not saying I agree with all methods of killing animals, but I would rather an animal have a fair chance, i.e to do what comes natural and FLEE, a dog can not do this locked in a pit :crazy:


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## CAYLA (3 April 2009)

all you need to do is google a few greyhound rescue organisations and check out what they recommend as far as length of time being exercised goes, i think you will be in for a shock as its definately not hours per day!

I dont understand why some people want to shy away from the whole dog fighting issue, or maybe i do.  If its ok to go around letting your dog kill animals due to its breed and instinct then how is it bad letting a pair of dogs fight who have been bred for and have instinct to fight.
		
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We are a greyhound rescue  and we would not rehome into a home that can only give 2 x 15 min walks, unless the dog was decrepit or had serious health issues 

Re the fighting, again, I dont intentionally go out to course rabbits or place dogs in pits to fight :crazy: I go to exercise my dogs, if it makes u feel better, I would not put my dog in a pen with a rabbit for the fun of it, for it to injure or kill, with no ESCAPE for the rabbit, in a field the rabbit can run and more often than not, GET AWAY


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## Hebegebe (3 April 2009)

intresting  most of your fellow hunters have been telling me the killing of the fox is a side dish.
		
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Fox hunting has different purposes depending on who you are. n It also has more than one purpose and function.  Something antis fail to understand.

In my experience antis are generally not very intelligent.


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## Hebegebe (3 April 2009)

Ok so the difference between dog fighting and fox hunting is ???
		
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Fox hunting uses dogs to locate and cxatch foxes and when they are located and caught to kill them by a very quick method.

With dog fighting/badger baiting etc the animal has already been caught and they are then set on eachother in a pit.  The odds are made fairly equal in order to extend the fight.

If dog fighting were like fox hunting then once the fox had been dug/flushed out it would not be shot but put in a bag.  They would then use a breed of dog with roughly the same fighting capacity as a fox and place the two in a pit and watch them fight and place bets on them.


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## Scratchline (3 April 2009)

I dont understand why some people want to shy away from the whole dog fighting issue, or maybe i do.  If its ok to go around letting your dog kill animals due to its breed and instinct then how is it bad letting a pair of dogs fight who have been bred for and have instinct to fight.
		
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Agree 100% with the above! At least in dog fighting "both", animals are bred, trained and choose ( when in the pit ), to either fight or not. Agreed it is their instinct as is used as an excuse by other breed owners on here for allowing their own dogs to attack others. Wehther that be fox, rabbit or rat.

The reason as we both know why people on here choose to try and  seperate themselves from it is because it is cruel, horrible to see and is about mans desire to achieve something not animal welfare. Its like a mirror to them and they cannot cope with seeing the reflection.


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## Hebegebe (3 April 2009)

So why do you think walking a dog off the lead is akin to dog fighting?

I'm really curious to know.

I never put my dogs on the lead.

Maybe I should dig out a few badgers and stick them in a pit with them?

If it isn't any more cruel why not?


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## Hebegebe (3 April 2009)

The other thing I don't get and to bring us back to the original point of the thread is why you think a wild mammal being accidentally killed by someone talking a dog out for a walk is akin to dog fighting and yet you seem to have no qualms about the million or so wild mammals accidentally killed by taking a car for a drive.

You talk about animal welfare but surely driving large chunks of metal at speed into our wildlife, often merely wounding them and leading to an agonising death causes more distress?

Could it be that that is something which we all do so you are loathe to criticise it?


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## Scratchline (3 April 2009)

Dog fighting is no comparison to walking your dog, how can 2 dogs thrown into a pit, with no route of escape, to fight to the death, one dog can not "choose" to run/hide, and if one is exhausted or injured, it will still be on the recieving end of the dog still able to fight, it will then be dragged from the pit, and in most cases, electricuted, shot, stabbed or killed/disposed by the cheapest or easiest method.
		
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With the greatest respect I made it clear we were not talking about " Red Top Newspaper Dogfights", which are sensationalistic, nonesensicle rubbish. Two dogs, at the peak of physical and mental well being. Bred for gameness, valued, loved and admired by their owners. Allowed fighting contact in a test of gameness strictly governed by rules which protect the animals.

Tha damage inflicted ONLY of the excact nature suffered by terriers allowed to bait foxes. There is no difference whatsoever and other than the fact that the fox is fighting for its life. Pit dogs and digging terriers enjoy the fight!!!

Diging is far more cruel therefore form an animals viewpoint.


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## Hebegebe (3 April 2009)

ok a million possibly an over estimate:

" In Britain annual road casualties are estimated to account for 100,000 foxes, 100,000 hedgehogs, 50,000 badgers and 30,000-50,000 deer."

http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~nhi775/road_deaths.htm


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## Scratchline (3 April 2009)

A fox can RUN!, surely not all foxes are caught? im very sure all dog fights are fought, as like I said, there is no escape route.
		
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Again, with the greatest respect you obviously no nothing about dog fighting. What is a "Scratchline", and what is it for?


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## Scratchline (3 April 2009)

So why do you think walking a dog off the lead is akin to dog fighting?

I dont bud. The whole point of the dog fighting was to show how the use of terriers to dig out foxes ( which had cropped up in this discussion), was far worse. It involves the same cruelty to both parties but again, one is trained and one is a terrified wild animal. It sickens me to my stomach.

But, comparing dog fighting to killikg other animals it really is one trained and one just fighting for its life because man has allowed his dogs a chance to kill it.

Maybe I should dig out a few badgers and stick them in a pit with them?

Why even say that? You dont mean it and if you want to test your dogs come roll them with mine. At least my dogs would be up for it and a badger just plain terrified. Let me know and I will put the kettle on )

I cannot say fairer than that. And my guess is, all of a sudden you may not be thinking it is a great idea? lol
		
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## Hebegebe (3 April 2009)

Tha damage inflicted ONLY of the excact nature suffered by terriers allowed to bait foxes.
		
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I'd be the first to admit that I know little about dog fighting or digging out.  However are we not talking the difference between 'hard' and 'soft' terriers here and the use of terriers to flush a fox verses the use of a terrier to fight a fox?

Moreover the use of terriers below ground is permitted by the Hunting Act.  If that is the part of fox hunting you object to then that seems rather ironic.


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## Hebegebe (3 April 2009)

I don't think it is a great idea.

I was pointing out that letting my dogs chase a few squirrels is not akin to badger baiting or dog fighting IMO.


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## Scratchline (3 April 2009)

The other thing I don't get and to bring us back to the original point of the thread is why you think a wild mammal being accidentally killed by someone talking a dog out for a walk is akin to dog fighting and yet you seem to have no qualms about the million or so wild mammals accidentally killed by taking a car for a drive.

You talk about animal welfare but surely driving large chunks of metal at speed into our wildlife, often merely wounding them and leading to an agonising death causes more distress?

Could it be that that is something which we all do so you are loathe to criticise it?
		
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On this one yes, I agree with you. Isnt man a pain in the butt for animals. The difference however is simple. Accidents yes, they happen. In this day and age we need the car etc, there isnt another option. Hopwever, if people deliberately drive around the country purposely killing animals then the law will come down on them like a ton of bricks.

So back to the original subject dogs can be controlled. They do not need to be off the lead for any reason and the legislation isnt as bad as first thought. Remember we already has a law that will lead to the destruction of a loving pet if it just happens to look like a 'supposed pit bull terrier', has been registered. The dog was being sick and the owner removed its muzzle so it didnt choke!
Law broken, dog murdered. A leash law is very possible for all dogs the way things are I am sad to say. Wild animal welfare is just another nail in our dogs freedom coffin.


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## Scratchline (3 April 2009)

Flushing I have absolutely no problem with. What combat claire hopes for a return of is sick to say the least. I have not confused you two hebegebe ))


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## Scratchline (3 April 2009)

I don't think it is a great idea.

I was pointing out that letting my dogs chase a few squirrels is not akin to badger baiting or dog fighting IMO.
		
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I know. I didnt think you were for a second, enjoy our chats.

I cannot think what hunting site it was on now, I will find it but this bloke was using a staff on foxes. Its head was one big scar and as bad as any fighting dog I have seen. Anyone involved in such activity has me as a huge enemy and rightly so IMHO.


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## Hebegebe (3 April 2009)

It's possible but what I was getting at is whether you would agree with it.

All laws are possible.  Politics is about which ones we should have.

Welfare is about balance and to me this would be ridiculous.

Like the animnal rights nutters who claim they want to 'end suffering'.


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## weebarney (3 April 2009)

Rational debate, i think you meant you would like me to back down and agree with you, well theres a shame.
		
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No just to clarify for other readers, a rational debate means a debate with someone who does not appear to think that rabbits are all little fluffy bunnies called Flopsy, Mopsy, Cottontail and Peter    Or a debate with someone who does not draw ridiculous comparisons to the killing of a rabbit by a greyhound to organised dog fighting.... 

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Oh the old bunny hugger theory, ha ha not that old chestnut. Another of the pro animal cruelty clicks records that never gets changed!


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## lastrebel (3 April 2009)

{quote}sorry but it was the main course for a lot of us ,

Thanks for that, it helps me justify what I do.


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## mystiandsunny (3 April 2009)

Rabbits, rats and pigeons are pests.  No one can seriously say we should let them breed without check?


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## lastrebel (3 April 2009)

well Hebegebe looking at your post I would question your intelligence.
I personally fully understand hunting fox control and the laws of natural balance.
I also understand cruelty, compassion and the fact that a small majority get off on killing or feeling power over other humans or animals, do you ?


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## lastrebel (3 April 2009)

My dog Rafferty was a rescue dog from the dogs trust.
He's a Rotty Irish wolfhound cross 6 years old and only just castrated.
I would get great pleasure from wathching him chase you, however something deep inside tells me this is wrong....... do you understand that.


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## Hebegebe (3 April 2009)

well Hebegebe looking at your post I would question your intelligence.
I personally fully understand hunting fox control and the laws of natural balance.
I also understand cruelty, compassion and the fact that a small majority get off on killing or feeling power over other humans or animals, do you ?
		
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which post?


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## marlyclay (3 April 2009)

A fox can RUN!, surely not all foxes are caught? im very sure all dog fights are fought, as like I said, there is no escape route.
		
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Again, with the greatest respect you obviously no nothing about dog fighting. What is a "Scratchline", and what is it for?
		
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A scratchline is a line drawn diagonally across a fighting pit.
If a dog does not cross that line in 10 seconds ,then he loses and his opponent wins the match.
What the hell has all this got to do with the original post?


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## CAYLA (3 April 2009)

A fox can RUN!, surely not all foxes are caught? im very sure all dog fights are fought, as like I said, there is no escape route.
		
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Again, with the greatest respect you obviously no nothing about dog fighting. What is a "Scratchline", and what is it for?
		
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A scratchline is a line drawn diagonally across a fighting pit.
If a dog does not cross that line in 10 seconds ,then he loses and his opponent wins the match.
What the hell has all this got to do with the original post?
		
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What she said 
Yep, I did know what a scratchline was, my OH told me some time ago :smirk:

As much as u are obsessed with dog fighting, Im sure u are not naive enough to believe every dog is fought this way, I work within an industry that has been involved in investigating dog fighting, it is certainly nothing to be bigged up :crazy:


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## Scratchline (4 April 2009)

[/quote]A scratchline is a line drawn diagonally across a fighting pit.
If a dog does not cross that line in 10 seconds ,then he loses and his opponent wins the match.


What the hell has all this got to do with the original post?[/quote]    About the same as 90% of this thread. But what you have written above shows you have now educated yourself and will not in future write rubbish like "im very sure all dog fights are fought, as like I said, there is no escape route". Scratching and the reason a scratch is called IS the escape route you obviously, previously didnt know about and now you do ))


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## Scratchline (4 April 2009)

What she said 
Yep, I did know what a scratchline was, my OH told me some time ago :smirk:

As much as u are obsessed with dog fighting, Im sure u are not naive enough to believe every dog is fought this way, I work within an industry that has been involved in investigating dog fighting, it is certainly nothing to be bigged up :crazy:
		
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I am guesiing this post was for me?

When discussing blood sports comparisons are suprisingly easy to make. I am very much not obsessed with dog fighting just very well read and informed on the subject. Understanding a subject and admiring the courage which I do, of the dogs involved ( NOT mans involvement!), is not a crime and I have clearly, NEVER "bigged up", the 'sport so Im resent your sugestion that I have! No matter )

As for being naive in my belief that it is now anything but a disgusting, cruel fight to the death, involving sick idiots who do not care one bit about their animals welfare please go back and read the third to last post of mine on page four of this thread which you obviously have missed before writing the above to me.

If you do indeed for an industry that has been involved in investigating dog fighting then you can be sure that myself and other owners of so called "fighting breeds", are right behind you all, support you all the way and agree there is no place in society for blood sports. None whatsoever.

Sadly if, IF that happens to be the RSPCA I would like to add that they will never be forgiven by many for whilst masquerading as a 'welfare', organisation they worked for the prosecution in identification cases brought under the Dangerous Dogs Act. The blood of completely innocent pets is on their hands even if they have now conveniently changed their ways and now speak out against the DDA.

Sorry, rant over. )


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## CAYLA (4 April 2009)

Hell no, I don't and never would work for the RSPCA :shocked: :smirk: 

Ps, does anyone know why the bloody emoticons and quotes do not work in this forum? :crazy:


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## FestiveSpirit (4 April 2009)

Hell no, I don't and never would work for the RSPCA :shocked: :smirk: 

Ps, does anyone know why the bloody emoticons and quotes do not work in this forum? :crazy:
		
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Cala I am shocked at some of your responses here, how could you possibly suggest that taking your dogs for a walk and allowing them OFF the lead was a responsible act  :shocked:

The emoticons dont work cos HHO have disabled them in this forum to stop people posting rude ones.  Shame they dont do the same in Soapbox really isnt it  :grin:


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## weebarney (4 April 2009)

i dont think anyone has suggested that all dogs should never be let off a lead.


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## Hebegebe (4 April 2009)

well i am off to the woods with my dogs off the lead to have somje fun with nature


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## kirstyhen (4 April 2009)

My Dog was just in the garden (off his lead!!!!) and he chased a bird.....

Which do I have to shoot? The bird or the dog??? :smirk:


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## FestiveSpirit (4 April 2009)

My Dog was just in the garden (off his lead!!!!) and he chased a bird.....

Which do I have to shoot? The bird or the dog??? :smirk:
		
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Both.  Immediately.  Sorry Otto  

 :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


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## peakpark (4 April 2009)

i dont think anyone has suggested that all dogs should never be let off a lead.
		
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I think Scratchline said that he wouldn't argue against such a law and that it would have many advantages, so presumably he is suggesting that.

Unfortunately there are irresponsible dog owners around, and so what with that, and Labour's love of laws and restrictions,  such a law is probably on the horizon.


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## kirstyhen (4 April 2009)

Both.  Immediately.  Sorry Otto  

 :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
		
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No problems, I was hoping it would be the dog... :smirk: :grin:


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## CAYLA (4 April 2009)

Hell no, I don't and never would work for the RSPCA :shocked: :smirk: 

Ps, does anyone know why the bloody emoticons and quotes do not work in this forum? :crazy:
		
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Cala I am shocked at some of your responses here, how could you possibly suggest that taking your dogs for a walk and allowing them OFF the lead was a responsible act  :shocked:

The emoticons dont work cos HHO have disabled them in this forum to stop people posting rude ones.  Shame they dont do the same in Soapbox really isnt it  :grin:
		
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Oops...guess that mean someone has to take them away then......all 11 of them :crazy: know anyone that would take my whippets for me :smirk:  :grin:


Arghhhhhh........I hate this bloody no emoticon stuff....I cannot even smirk


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## CAYLA (4 April 2009)

Both.  Immediately.  Sorry Otto  

 :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
		
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No problems, I was hoping it would be the dog... :smirk: :grin:
		
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Actually, I think, it's u who should be shot  u   ignaramous 

 That bird, may not return to it's nest and the chicks may die through sheer shock from the otto experience :shocked:

 :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


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## spaniel (6 April 2009)

QR.


Someone mentioned earlier that the foxes predators have been taken out of the equation.  

Surely if bear and wolf chases/kills are acceptable it makes no difference if a dog does the same thing.....the fox knows know different.

I dont like to see things die but there is so much hypocricy surrounding hunting.   Look at the award winning wildlife programmes we all sit glued to......cant take our eyes off some big cat bringing down a gazelle.   Odd how once its a cute fluffytailed fox is suddenly different.


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## kirstyhen (6 April 2009)

That bird, may not return to it's nest and the chicks may die through sheer shock from the otto experience :shocked:

 :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
		
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I think most things might die from the shock of the Otto experiance, it's certainly not for the faint hearted! :grin:


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## weebarney (6 April 2009)

QR.


Someone mentioned earlier that the foxes predators have been taken out of the equation.  

Surely if bear and wolf chases/kills are acceptable it makes no difference if a dog does the same thing.....the fox knows know different.

I dont like to see things die but there is so much hypocricy surrounding hunting.   Look at the award winning wildlife programmes we all sit glued to......cant take our eyes off some big cat bringing down a gazelle.   Odd how once its a cute fluffytailed fox is suddenly different.
		
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Oh please the cute n fluffy thing does wear incredibly thin.   It really is a very narrow minded view to have of people who dont like hunting.


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## weebarney (6 April 2009)

I notice there have been some replys removed from here, hmmm they were quite funny as well


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## Scratchline (6 April 2009)

QR.


Someone mentioned earlier that the foxes predators have been taken out of the equation.  

Surely if bear and wolf chases/kills are acceptable it makes no difference if a dog does the same thing.....the fox knows know different.

I dont like to see things die but there is so much hypocricy surrounding hunting.   Look at the award winning wildlife programmes we all sit glued to......cant take our eyes off some big cat bringing down a gazelle.   Odd how once its a cute fluffytailed fox is suddenly different.
		
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You are right that someone mentioned the removal of the foxes "predators". Bears were mentioned but left these shores around 500AD. The Lynx was mentioned but its prey was of course hares and roe deer. Wolves were mentioned but as we know from America they do not hunt foxes. Coyotes may kill the odd one but not wolves.

Any of the above may have killed sick animals or eaten dead ones. But they never were a predator of foxes. So perhaps were only used in an imaginary way to 'help', in a discussion )

 Nature programmes we watch, its nature. Man killing for his own sake is completely different. Your comparisson was ludicrous in the extreme!


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## Hebegebe (6 April 2009)

Any of the above may have killed sick animals or eaten dead ones. But they never were a predator of foxes. So perhaps were only used in an imaginary way to 'help', in a discussion )
		
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Why has a study found that lynx are significant predators of foxes then?

Do you actually have any foundation for your statements?


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## Hebegebe (6 April 2009)

"Wolves mainly hunt deer, roe deer, and wild boar. Theyll also take smaller predators such as foxes and stray dogs. Wolves account for the worst damage to sheep herds."

http://www.shootingenterprise.com/main/publication/content/468.html


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## Hebegebe (6 April 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePS4Y2FkG-g


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## peakpark (7 April 2009)

quote/ Nature programmes we watch, its nature. Man killing for his own sake is completely different. Your comparisson was ludicrous in the extreme!  /quote.

It's nature....yes, out on walks, off the lead, my whippets will chase a rabbit if they see one. They are not 'put up' to it by me - in fact they are likely to be out of sight at the far end of the field and I play no part in the hunt.  Is that not nature?

I thought your personal remarks, now removed by the moderator,  extremely spiteful and unpleasant. I don't imagine the poster at whom your comments were directed will come back for more of that.
However, you obviously don't like oppostion and will use what means you can to get rid of it.
Can we see a photo of you, please.


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## Scratchline (7 April 2009)

Why has a study found that lynx are significant predators of foxes then?

Which study would that be please?

Do you actually have any foundation for your statements?
		
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Yes, the internet. Loads of information avaliable )


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## Scratchline (7 April 2009)

It's nature....yes, out on walks, off the lead, my whippets will chase a rabbit if they see one. They are not 'put up' to it by me - in fact they are likely to be out of sight at the far end of the field and I play no part in the hunt.  Is that not nature?

No that is of course not nature. That is you allowing your pets to run off in a field with no control whatsoever. You not knowing what they may be attacking whether that be a wild animal or farm stock.

I thought your personal remarks, now removed by the moderator,  extremely spiteful and unpleasant. I don't imagine the poster at whom your comments were directed will come back for more of that.

Good. I see the moderator removed the comments that I found offensive from the ladt in question which added nothing to the debate other than to goad others into posting in a similar way.

However, you obviously don't like oppostion and will use what means you can to get rid of it.

Rubbish. I dont like people who post ONLY to attack others adding nothing to the discussion whatsoever.


Can we see a photo of you, please. 

You can buy one by all means. For twenty quid I will even sign it. Paypal will be fine so just let me know?
		
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## Hebegebe (7 April 2009)

Have you  everused Google?

Lynxes prey on hares, rabbits, rodents, wild boar, chamois, foxes, roe deer and reindeer. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_lynx


Lynxes prey on hares, rodents, foxes, and even roe deer.
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/Fauna/EurasianLynx.html

Lynxes will also kill squirrels, foxes, badgers, fish, beetles, ...
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...amp;oi=book_result&amp;ct=result&amp;resnum=9

       several observations have been made on the predation of lynx upon
foxes.
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cach...xes&amp;cd=12&amp;hl=en&amp;ct=clnk&amp;gl=uk

Sometimes the lynx will hunt deer, sheep, goats, and foxes
http://www.echeat.com/essay.php?t=32493

37 foxes also fell prey to the lynx in the study.
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cach...xes&amp;cd=24&amp;hl=en&amp;ct=clnk&amp;gl=uk

They catch hares, rabbits, rodents, weasels, foxes, and even small deer.
http://www.sch.im/wlp/pages/lynx 2.htm

Lynx (Lynx lynx) killing red foxes (Vulpes vulpes) in boreal Sweden  frequency and population effects
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118624016/abstract?CRETRY=1&amp;SRETRY=0


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## silverbreeze (8 April 2009)

Fighting dogs/guard dogs are trained for a purpose and therefor it is a completely different situation.
That is like an argument that we should allow all "bomb school" trainees to reside in this country if we allow their fellow country men to...


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## weebarney (8 April 2009)

Fighting dogs/guard dogs are trained for a purpose and therefor it is a completely different situation.
That is like an argument that we should allow all "bomb school" trainees to reside in this country if we allow their fellow country men to...
		
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Fighting and guard dogs are born with the instinct  to fight or guard, just the same as whippets/greyhounds. So it is not an entirely different situation.


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## silverbreeze (8 April 2009)

The situation would be looked upon differently if the animal was to savage a child as opposed to a rabbit.  Instinct and training for different things; one far more severe than the other imho.
It is about being sensible.  I wouldn't dream of not letting my springer off the lead; he would become mentally disturbed as he lives to run and chase and fool about.  I would class it as cruelty if i couldn't let him off the lead.  I know he wouldn't hurt anyone ever and if he ever managed to catch up to a rabbit or squirrel wouldn't have the first idea what to do.. and if he did; i certainly wouldn't use that as grounds to keep him on a lead.
His life revolves around running and if another wild animal gets in the way then it gets in the way, he means nothing by it and I hardly class myself as inflicting animal cruelty by letting him do it.. Quite the opposite.  I think this is a case of extremist behaviour running wild, exactly why our country is in the state it is. PC craziness
Rabbits etc are prey animals, this is why they breed like wild fire to combat the fallen ones, just because the predator (lightly used as I know this is about the chase) happens to be a domestic animal.. how is that suddenly wrong to the predator being a fox? And why is it worse because they chase rather than kill?
I appologise if this is already mentioned earlier; I am losing track!


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## weebarney (8 April 2009)

The situation would be looked upon differently if the animal was to savage a child as opposed to a rabbit.  Instinct and training for different things; one far more severe than the other imho.
It is about being sensible.  I wouldn't dream of not letting my springer off the lead; he would become mentally disturbed as he lives to run and chase and fool about.  I would class it as cruelty if i couldn't let him off the lead.  I know he wouldn't hurt anyone ever and if he ever managed to catch up to a rabbit or squirrel wouldn't have the first idea what to do.. and if he did; i certainly wouldn't use that as grounds to keep him on a lead.
His life revolves around running and if another wild animal gets in the way then it gets in the way, he means nothing by it and I hardly class myself as inflicting animal cruelty by letting him do it.. Quite the opposite.  I think this is a case of extremist behaviour running wild, exactly why our country is in the state it is. PC craziness
Rabbits etc are prey animals, this is why they breed like wild fire to combat the fallen ones, just because the predator (lightly used as I know this is about the chase) happens to be a domestic animal.. how is that suddenly wrong to the predator being a fox? And why is it worse because they chase rather than kill?
I appologise if this is already mentioned earlier; I am losing track!
		
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My point is not for people to keep thair dog on a lead but to use their own initiative and they shouldnt have a problem. People are always going to come across wild animals while walking their dogs. I would imagine this legislation would be aimed at people who deliberately allow their dogs to chase and kill wild animals and then claim it to be an accident.


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## silverbreeze (8 April 2009)

Ok.. that I understand but how on earth would they police that?  How could they prove it accidental or deliberate? Noone is going to admit they deliberately allow their dog to chase and kill.  I don't call my dog away if he is chasing a squirrel as I know he has about as much chance of catching it as I do, would that be classed as deliberate and would I go to court and get a criminal record if someone saw my dog chasing it and I didn't call him off, even if he didn't kill it?  
Would it have to be backed up by a kill?
Would the dog be classed as dangerous and put to sleep?  
the problem with some laws is that on the face of it they seem like a good idea but they get abused as with everything and it generally appears to be the innocent that suffer...


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## weebarney (8 April 2009)

I cant really answer most of your questions, but as far as affecting innocent people go i think a lot of laws affect innocent people just to catch the few bad guys but then what is the alternative?


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## silverbreeze (8 April 2009)

hmmm, I can think of a few but them in themselves would be illegal  
Is there somewhere where we can view and monitor this proposed law?  Don't know where people get the info from...


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## Bunce (10 April 2009)

I cant really answer most of your questions, but as far as affecting innocent people go i think a lot of laws affect innocent people just to catch the few bad guys but then what is the alternative?
		
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There is no chance that the law will target innocent people.  It is specifically designed to only apply to organised trail hunts.  Other people who merely allow a dog to kill a fox will not be affected.

The current Act is flawed because as hunting is an intentional activity we have to prove that someone is actually hunting in order to prosecute them for hunting.  This modification to the law removes that requirement for this proof.  It will allow us to prosecute far more hunts without having to prove they are hunting which brings the law in line with its original intention.


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## Eagle_day (10 April 2009)

There is no chance that the law will target innocent people ....  The current Act is flawed because as hunting is an intentional activity we have to prove that someone is actually hunting in order to prosecute them for hunting.  This modification to the law removes that requirement for this proof.  It will allow us to prosecute far more hunts without having to prove they are hunting which brings the law in line with its original intention.
		
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So if you can't prove if someone is hunting, but they're still guilty, isn't that exactly targeting the innocent.

You wrote the law, Bunce.  You had your chance and you blew it.  You won't get another for 20 years.


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