# Over 2 You



## Amymay (18 April 2011)

Something for you to _really_ get your knickers in a twist about.

*WARNING:  GRAPHIC IMAGES OF LIVE ANIMAL'S BEING SKINNED.  Do not open if easily upset or offended.  Not suitable for children.
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http://features.peta.org/ChineseFurFarms/


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## Jennyharvey (18 April 2011)

amymay said:



			Something for you to _really_ get your knickers in a twist about.

*WARNING:  GRAPHIC IMAGES OF LIVE ANIMAL'S BEING SKINNED.  Do not open if easily upset or offended.  Not suitable for children.
*
http://features.peta.org/ChineseFurFarms/

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Unfortunately this sort of thing does happen quite often in the likes of china.  Its shocking, and just goes to show how little respect these people show animals.  Its sickening and unnesesary.


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## Bug2007 (18 April 2011)

Sick. 

Ok the fur trade is alive but you could at least keep the animals humanly and kill them in the best possible way, but to leave animals alive while and after they have been skined. 

Seriously.


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## marmalade76 (18 April 2011)

I couldn't watch but have seen something about this on TV, but in that case they were skinning dogs.


Really, as far as cruelty to animals is conserned, horse racing is the least of our worries.


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## Kadastorm (18 April 2011)

That poor animal at the end, still alive...
i feel physically sick and am in tears  
So yeah, this shows there are other things in the world that need to be sorted before racing. 
I would rather be a racehorse than one of those animals.


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## LauraWheeler (18 April 2011)

Didn't watch video as soon as I opened link I realised I've seen it before      Feel sick remembering


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## teagreen (18 April 2011)

That is real suffering.


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## Rouletterose (18 April 2011)

amymay said:



			Something for you to _really_ get your knickers in a twist about.

*WARNING:  GRAPHIC IMAGES OF LIVE ANIMAL'S BEING SKINNED.  Do not open if easily upset or offended.  Not suitable for children.
*
http://features.peta.org/ChineseFurFarms/

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And the reason for posting this is???? most people know this kind of vile cruelty goes on but can do nothing about it with it being a country like China, petitions to governments etc etc would not achieve any changes. China are a law unto themselves, I didn't look at the film as most of us have seen similar on TV anyway, and as previous posters have already said 'it made them feel sick, or they didn't open it' so what are you trying to achieve by posting it?


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## merrymeasure (18 April 2011)

Couldn't bring myself to open the link, though I know this barbaric act goes on. I agree , racing and racehorses are the least of our worries when this kind of cruelty goes on, and it IS cruelty. You can't dress it up any other way. I love racing, I own an ex-racer myself, who is with me till the end, and I'm sick of reading about the Grand National, and racing in general as to how cruel it is. THIS is cruelty!


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## millreef (18 April 2011)

amymay said:



			Something for you to _really_ get your knickers in a twist about.

*WARNING:  GRAPHIC IMAGES OF LIVE ANIMAL'S BEING SKINNED.  Do not open if easily upset or offended.  Not suitable for children.
*
http://features.peta.org/ChineseFurFarms/

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I'm with Rouletterose on this one.  It's pretty easy to trawl the internet and find stuff like this.  Posting on the HHO would obviously upset a lot of people as we all have one thing in common and that is a love of animals.


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## Amymay (18 April 2011)

Rouletterose said:



			And the reason for posting this is???? most people know this kind of vile cruelty goes on but can do nothing about it with it being a country like China, petitions to governments etc etc would not achieve any changes. China are a law unto themselves, I didn't look at the film as most of us have seen similar on TV anyway, and as previous posters have already said 'it made them feel sick, or they didn't open it' so what are you trying to achieve by posting it?
		
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I wonder, actually, how many people _do_ realise that this kind of vile cruelty goes on?

And actually we can affect a change - petitioning our government can put pressure on other governments.

As for what I'm trying to achieve - well public awareness for a start (never a bad thing, and I was so horrified by what I saw I thought it important to try and circulate it to a wider audience).

But it was also in response to the Grand National thread as well.  With an attempt (perhaps crudely) to try and show that if you want to get your knickers in a twist about supposed animal cruelty - this is a good one to get hysterical over.  Because I'm not sure I've ever come across anything quite as shocking before.


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## Amymay (18 April 2011)

millreef said:



			I'm with Rouletterose on this one.  It's pretty easy to trawl the internet and find stuff like this.  Posting on the HHO would obviously upset a lot of people as we all have one thing in common and that is a love of animals.
		
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It's precisely because we are animal lovers that I have posted this - and of course it will upset people.  That is the purpose.  Think, provoke, act.


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## tigerlily12345 (18 April 2011)

Rouletterose said:



			And the reason for posting this is???? most people know this kind of vile cruelty goes on but can do nothing about it with it being a country like China, petitions to governments etc etc would not achieve any changes. China are a law unto themselves, I didn't look at the film as most of us have seen similar on TV anyway, and as previous posters have already said 'it made them feel sick, or they didn't open it' so what are you trying to achieve by posting it?
		
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i had heard about this happening in china but always kind of pretended it doesnt happen. and tbh i dont think it is better to turn a blind eye to this kind of thing, yes, maybe there is nothing we can personally do but surely the more people that know the more unacceptable it will become. this sort of thing would have been acceptable in england at one point so the more its publicised the less it will happen (in the long run, im not saying anytime soon) but im sure some people arent aware of this going on. 

very sad and disgusting


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## Maesfen (18 April 2011)

amymay said:



			It's precisely because we are animal lovers that I have posted this - and of course it will upset people.  That is the purpose.  Think, provoke, act.
		
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And to prove to those that complained about the National that racehorses have the best of lives unlike those poor things in China (and elsewhere)


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## BigRed (18 April 2011)

I am not sure why you feel the need to post unpleasant video clips.  I don't want to look at stuff like this because it upsets me.  There is nothing that I can do to stop it, so it is a pointless exercise.


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## Amymay (18 April 2011)

BigRed said:



			I am not sure why you feel the need to post unpleasant video clips.  I don't want to look at stuff like this because it upsets me.  There is nothing that I can do to stop it, so it is a pointless exercise.
		
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You don't have to look at it.

And highlighting these sorts of trades is never pointless.


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## Amymay (18 April 2011)

Maesfen said:



			And to prove to those that complained about the National that racehorses have the best of lives unlike those poor things in China (and elsewhere)
		
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Exactly!


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## BBH (18 April 2011)

amymay said:



			It's precisely because we are animal lovers that I have posted this - and of course it will upset people.  That is the purpose.  Think, provoke, act.
		
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I actually I don't want to see horror like this on essentially a family forum and for most people it will result in disturbed nightmares not action.

IMO this stuff has no place here whether people think its in the interest of others to ' know' or not. If you want access to this stuff there are plenty of other places to see it. People would be very naive to not realise it goes on but that doesn't mean we want to be reminded of it because I am pretty sure there will no action to help from this forum.


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## lexiedhb (18 April 2011)

BBH said:



			I actually I don't want to see horror like this on essentially a family forum and for most people it will result in disturbed nightmares not action.

IMO this stuff has no place here whether people think its in the interest of others to ' know' or not. If you want access to this stuff there are plenty of other places to see it. People would be very naive to not realise it goes on but that doesn't mean we want to be reminded of it because I am pretty sure there will no action to help from this forum.
		
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The is a massive, clear warning, in red writing - telling you of content- so if you did not wish to see it you did not have to open the link.


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## tigerlily12345 (18 April 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			The is a massive, clear warning, in red writing - telling you of content- so if you did not wish to see it you did not have to open the link.
		
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exactly this ^^ its not like anyone was trying to trick people into awareness


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## BBH (18 April 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			The is a massive, clear warning, in red writing - telling you of content- so if you did not wish to see it you did not have to open the link.
		
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I didn't open it but I knew what it was about because its well know how the chinese treat some of their animals. The very fact it is on here reminds you of it. 

And perhaps the thread title should alude to its graphic nature not just wait for you to click the link.

I actually thought OVER 2 YOU was about the eventer, hence why I clicked on it.


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## _MizElz_ (18 April 2011)

Ah, the old argument. If you can't see it, it can't hurt you. Makes me so cross.

The reactions of some on this thread simply highlight what many have said about the National - the only reason people are up in arms about racing now is because the deaths were do public. And the only reason there is not constant widespread horror about the live skinning trade is because many are 'too horrified' to think about it, and would prefer to ignore it because they feel they stand no chance of changing it.

Amymay, you were right to post this x


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## bensababy (18 April 2011)

I have a weak stomach and actually ran to toilet to throw up after watching that.. puts things into perspective really.. tears are streaming down my face at the poor faces!


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## AMH (18 April 2011)

I didn't open this, because of the warning. I know this stuff goes on and I choose not to watch the footage bacause I find it upsetting. But I don't disagree that it should be dealt with, and I don't think that highlighting it is 'pointless'.

I agree with you, amymay, people need to get some perspective.


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## millreef (18 April 2011)

Yes but the problem with this type of thread is that it turns in to a Chinese bashing exercise, where a whole nation of over 1.2 billion people are condemned because of a couple of ignorant/greedy/heartless ones.  I just hate the tone of these threads.... Oh the Chinese this and the Chinese that...... Just two words springs to mind here Spindles Farm - Nobody started shouting "Oh those flippin Anglo Saxon White British People....All I'm saying is please let's not allow things like this to slur a whole nation.


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## Amymay (18 April 2011)

Yes but the problem with this type of thread is that it turns in to a Chinese bashing exercise
		
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Many, many cultures in the world think that it's acceptable to treat animals in a inhumane and barbaric fashion.  China is by no means alone.

No one has 'bashed' China in this thread - but as it is happening in this country it might be prudent to at least bash their government in to taking some affirmative action to stop it.....  After all, it's them that allow the practice to continue.


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## tigerlily12345 (18 April 2011)

millreef said:



			Yes but the problem with this type of thread is that it turns in to a Chinese bashing exercise, where a whole nation of over 1.2 billion people are condemned because of a couple of ignorant/greedy/heartless ones.  I just hate the tone of these threads.... Oh the Chinese this and the Chinese that...... Just two words springs to mind here Spindles Farm - Nobody started shouting "Oh those flippin Anglo Saxon White British People....All I'm saying is please let's not allow things like this to slur a whole nation.
		
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no one os 'bashing' the chinese in this thread. however, what happened at spindlers farm was completely illegal and dealt with (eventually) and as soon as it was publicly outed
this is going on in china (and many other countries) and people including the government are completely aware of it and not trying to stop it happening. therefore the more publicity it gets the more likely it will eventually stop!


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## Rouletterose (18 April 2011)

amymay said:



			Many, many cultures in the world think that it's acceptable to treat animals in a humane and barbaric fashion.  China is by no means alone.

No one has 'bashed' China in this thread - but as it is happening in this country it might be prudent to at least bash their government in to taking some affirmative action to stop it.....  After all, it's them that allow the practice to continue.
		
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Yes and if people really want to do something about it they can just google 'Chinese fur trade' and sign one of many petitions that have been going for years, I and all my family signed in 2008.


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## Amymay (18 April 2011)

Rouletterose said:



			Yes and if people really want to do something about it they can just google 'Chinese fur trade' and sign one of many petitions that have been going for years, I and all my family signed in 2008.
		
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Indeed they can - if they know it's happening.......


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## millreef (18 April 2011)

I can promise you that inhumane treatment of animals goes on in almost ALL nations - China is no exception.  I live in Hong Kong which is part of China and I'm telling you, if you tried to harm their Poodles here they'd go for your jugular! There are animal lovers here, just like in the UK and other nations so all I'm saying is please don't  condemn a whole nation.

By the way, I have a sister called AmyMay - it's not you is it???????


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## Ninfapaola (18 April 2011)

I think it's sickening and very sinister that humans can inflict such atrocitties on defenceless creatures.

I am aware of what goes on and have seen similiar films and I am trying to pluck up the courage to view this one.

It does make unpleasant viewing and the warnings are very clear however it does go remind us of the vile acts taking place and if anything is to be or can be done stuff like this should keep coming to the forefront to stop us all getting complacent.


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## firm (18 April 2011)

I didn't know it went on. If it is legal in China & if you do want to start doing something to put pressure on their govt to prevent it,  then stop buying your headcollars,rugs & wellies etc that are made in China and let the companies know why.


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## Dovorian (18 April 2011)

If people feel strongly enough - boycott Chinese imports. May restrict choice especially in the horse and rider clothing sector, and Hobbs' lovely clothes.....


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## suzysparkle (18 April 2011)

I clicked on this because I thought it was about the eventer as well. Even reading what it's about is enough to make me feel physically sick and for this reason I will never watch it. It would haunt me forever. I do recall signing the petition years ago. I also support the Scottish SPCA who campaigned hugely to stop the import of dog and cat far into the UK. It wasn't that long ago that it was banned.

There's so many sick things go on. In some ways worse than this. Think about the revolting bear bile trade where they are forced to live in tiny cages for years and have painfull bile drains daily. Mental torture over so long would be a lot worse. The whole thought of skinning alive - I just do not see what it achieves. If they must skin things then at least kill it humanely first. Then there's shark fin soup.....shudder. They sell that in the UK as well.

I remember watching something years ago which showed a collie type dog having its nose bound with wire, its legs tied together and then thrown into a sack. At that point I threw up and had to switch it off. It still haunts me now. That was either China or Korea. I'm quite sure that it's only a very small minority who are involved with these senseless barbaric acts. I'm also sure it all boils down to money, ie it's cheaper not to kill them. But, with things going on like puppy farming (massive mental torture for the bitch not to mention the neglected / abandoned dogs that often result) and dog fighting, not to mention the deliberate cruelty that goes on in this country, it's easy to see that horseracing is one of the last things people should get upset over.


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## suzysparkle (18 April 2011)

Info on the campaign and subsequent ban that the SSPCA were involved with. There is one picture of dogs crammed into cages....just as a warning before you click on it. 

http://www.scottishspca.org/campaigns/42_fur-trade


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## joeanne (18 April 2011)

_MizElz_ said:



			Ah, the old argument. If you can't see it, it can't hurt you. Makes me so cross.
		
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Its part of the reason bear bile is still availible in certain countries, gorilla hands are chopped off for ashtrays, baby seals clubbed to death for thier skins, elephants hunted for tusks....
Unless you are informed these things happen, how the hell are you supposed to be able to make a difference?
How many people would assume "farmed fur" came from animals kept in humane conditions, humanely killed, etc etc. How many of those people would have thought twice had they known the truth?
You can only make informed decisions IF you are given all the information....be that good or bad.


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## Tormenta (19 April 2011)

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/154497/chinese-rights-activists-save-520.html

Public opinion in a country can start to change, it only takes a few to make a stand.


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## Amymay (19 April 2011)

Yes, posted this on another thread Tormenta.  It's just great isn't it??


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## glitterbug (19 April 2011)

amymay I think you are totally right this sickening practice puts all the moans about the Grand National into perspective, I knew this sort of thing goes on but have never seen such a horrific video. I am sat at my desk in tears and that poor animal at the end will haunt me.
Hopefully one day the worlds attitude to this sort of treatment will change and these videos do need to be seen as they raise awareness.
Is it such a hard thing to do to give an animal a decent life and painfree death? I think not.


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## Amymay (19 April 2011)

Is it such a hard thing to do to give an animal a decent life and painfree death
		
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And this is exactly what I have been thinking about so much since viewing the video myself.  None of us are niaive enough to think that the fur trade (any fur trade) will be outlawed - but it is easy to deliver a swift and painless death to an animal. So why don't they.  It's beyond me, it really is.


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## Dobiegirl (19 April 2011)

For me Dovorian hit the nail on the head stop buying Chinese products this would have a bigger impact on the Chinese than any amount of protests.

I for one will not be buying any more Chinese products.


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## _MizElz_ (19 April 2011)

joeanne said:



			Its part of the reason bear bile is still availible in certain countries, gorilla hands are chopped off for ashtrays, baby seals clubbed to death for thier skins, elephants hunted for tusks....
Unless you are informed these things happen, how the hell are you supposed to be able to make a difference?
How many people would assume "farmed fur" came from animals kept in humane conditions, humanely killed, etc etc. How many of those people would have thought twice had they known the truth?
You can only make informed decisions IF you are given all the information....be that good or bad.
		
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That was my point entirely, Joeanne - of course you cannot change a thing if you don't know of its existence, but when people adopt a 'I know it goes on but it makes me feel bad/sick/horrified so I won't let myself think about it' attitude, THAT is what gets me.


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## TallyHo123 (19 April 2011)

Don't want to watch that video. Sounds terrible. Can't believe things like this can still go on, will it ever end?


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## ThePinkPony (19 April 2011)

As terrible as it is, posting a video on a forum wont change what happens in china. That particular video is quite old, i saw it years ago im certain. As a previous poster said, if you trawl the internet-or even just type 'animal cruelty' into google you will find a thousand things that will make you 'throw up'.

If you are so keen to publicise cruelty then why not try and educate people about cruelty that goes on in the UK. That can be stopped and changed like The abominable way some animals bred for food are treated. 
Or even hailing charities like BHWT who rescue and rehome battery hens.

Anyone can sit at their computer and say they are 'making a difference' or 'helping a cause', If thats what makes you feel good then hey, who's to judge.

But then there are the actual people who go out there and donate the money, rehome the animals and volunteer their services to ACTUALLY make a difference.


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## Starbucks (19 April 2011)

Well done AM, good point well made I think.


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## millreef (20 April 2011)

I totally agree with thepinkpony on this one.  There are many awful things which exist around the world but often things on our own doorstep (China is mine ironically), which need to be addressed.  The SPSA in Hong Kong is a very active and valued society (just not got the Royal bit at the front).  There is also a great deal of work gone on with Bile Bears - this is now ALMOST thankfully a thing of the past through the work of Chinese animal rights activists and locals- including one of my best friends who's raised thousands over the past couple of years.  It's also very easy to say "this is terrible - I feel bad" then carry on eating your dinner.  Rwanda is a fine example of this - we knew it was going on and a million people hacked to death in 100 days.  I think if you're going say that this needs something done about it, then you should stop buying Chinese products -at least then you're not just giving lip-service to the problem.


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## Tormenta (20 April 2011)

amymay said:



			Yes, posted this on another thread Tormenta.  It's just great isn't it??
		
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Absolutely. From small Acorns, mighty Oaks grow........


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## Amymay (20 April 2011)

Anyone can sit at their computer and say they are 'making a difference' or 'helping a cause', If thats what makes you feel good then hey, who's to judge.
		
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I don't think I've claimed anywhere that I'm making a difference to anything.

Cruelty takes all forms - in this country and others - and if highlighting just one aspect of what goes on _anywhere_ draws peoples attention to it how can that be a bad thing?


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## lannerch (20 April 2011)

ThePinkPony said:



			As terrible as it is, posting a video on a forum wont change what happens in china. That particular video is quite old, i saw it years ago im certain. As a previous poster said, if you trawl the internet-or even just type 'animal cruelty' into google you will find a thousand things that will make you 'throw up'.

If you are so keen to publicise cruelty then why not try and educate people about cruelty that goes on in the UK. That can be stopped and changed like The abominable way some animals bred for food are treated. 
Or even hailing charities like BHWT who rescue and rehome battery hens.

Anyone can sit at their computer and say they are 'making a difference' or 'helping a cause', If thats what makes you feel good then hey, who's to judge.

But then there are the actual people who go out there and donate the money, rehome the animals and volunteer their services to ACTUALLY make a difference.
		
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I think I am right in saying amymay certainly has in the past pointed out the cruelty that does go on in this country just because there is cruelty in this country does that mean that we turn a blind eye to that which goes on elsewhere. 

Boycotting sales if done in a large enough scale will certainly help, even in a small scale if its making sure that no one buys from the fur trade unless they are sure of the humane origin. If no one bought the furs in this case the practice would cease and I am willing to bet the western world is one of their best customers.

The more people that know about  it  better!


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## ozpoz (20 April 2011)

Amymay - I believe you are right to post this. i have seen it, or something very similar before, which both haunted me AND made me aware of the realities of the fur trade. 
Now,I look with pity at anyone who is dull enough to buy into this trade and wear fur. It says so much about them that would be better left unsaid. 
 (All our clothing is a statement and an identity, isn't it? Mine usually says comfortable and practical , though! )

It's wrong to look away. You should be informed of ANY product before you endorse it by using your money... 

When you feel you can do nothing, then the least you can do is bear witness to the act which is being carried out.


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## ThePinkPony (20 April 2011)

Yes, but we are talking about a country that awards the ability to skin, cook, carve and serve and animal whilst it is still alive when it arrives at your table. 

It is culture to them, and im certain there are millions of natives who recoil in disgust at the type of cruelty going on around them-as millreef says. 

Personally i cant stand fur or understand why someone would want to wear it (especially stinky old charlie, eugh, looks better on the animal)

But I am astounded how many people i meet who would more than happily spout off about the cruelty of foxhunting before tucking into their poorly reared pork/chicken dinner completely oblivious as to how the former animal was kept.


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## dominobrown (20 April 2011)

Some of you have such balanced opinions on this I haven't really got much to add.
Pinkpony- I completely know where you coming from on the chicken thing, because my mum is the same! I now have chickens and would rather kill one of my chickens myself, knowing its had the best possible life, than get a battery chicken that has been 'tortured' (have you seen chicken factories in Thailand?).
I my opinion its the same with a racehorse- yes there a good and bad trainers, but its a strictly controlled industry where the animals get the best possible life.


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