# Sold a horse without a passport



## NeedHelp (12 January 2009)

I was sold a gelding without a passport and yes I may have been naive but kept being promised it (2 years now). It still hasn't been sorted and I need to remove the horse from the yard. I am speaking to trading standards about where I stand. However the person is saying that I owe them livery money. I have only verbally agreed to pay for the next two weeks and have no contract. They say that I need to pay the money for a month's notice. If I can't move the horse because I have no passport then I can't move him to cheaper livery. I feel like they've got me over a barrel. Any suggestions?


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## martlin (12 January 2009)

Get it passported maybe?


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## Divasmum (12 January 2009)

Surely if you don't have a contract they cannot ask for a months livery money. If you are getting the passport situation sorted then surely you can move the horse.


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## black_horse (12 January 2009)

why has it taken so long to get a passport? why has your vet not questioned it when giving vaccinations???


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## Skhosu (12 January 2009)

move it then apply for a passport..


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## Firewell (12 January 2009)

Unless im misundestanding something why dont you get a passport for the horse yourself? 
My friend had to do it for her horse, she brought a horse off a dealer about 3 years ago and the horse didnt come with a passport. My friend just applied for one herself and got the vet to fill it in.
We did that with out two old boys who have now passed away, when passports became law we applied and got them both one.
I think you could do that


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## Ranyhyn (12 January 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I was sold a gelding without a passport and yes I may have been naive but kept being promised it (2 years now). It still hasn't been sorted and I need to remove the horse from the yard. I am speaking to trading standards about where I stand. However the person is saying that I owe them livery money. I have only verbally agreed to pay for the next two weeks and have no contract. They say that I need to pay the money for a month's notice. If I can't move the horse because I have no passport then I can't move him to cheaper livery. I feel like they've got me over a barrel. Any suggestions? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Get the horse passported yourself.

As for the yard if you have no contract then quite frankly you can do whatever you like within reason - that said its always good not to burn your bridges...


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## JM07 (12 January 2009)

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move it then apply for a passport.. 

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she wont be able to without one..

and hasn't it seen a vet in 2 years???

Vaccs etc??


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## Ziggy_ (12 January 2009)

Up and leave and apply for a passport. Yes, its illegal to move a horse without one but its illegal to buy or sell without one too.

I've reported a local dealer for selling horses without passports and nothing has ever been done despite me giving names and addresses of people who have bought horses from them without passports (I hasten to add they all applied for passports immediately afterward, and I sought their consent before giving their names to trading standards as they were wiling to testify against said dealer). The passport law is useless.

If you've paid for this horse, have no contract and no receipt, I'd advise you to get out of there asap.


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## brighteyes (12 January 2009)

Far as I know it's the selling without a passport which is illegal - not the buying.  Go figure...


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## Kenzo (12 January 2009)

Get an application on line, complete your bits, get vet out to do the identification part and send it off, you could have it back within a week after applying.

Not all vets ask to see passports when jabbing, even horse disposal  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 crazy I know.

She cant stop you from removing your horse from her yard, if you square up with her money wise, yes you may be breaking the law but hell nobody would be telling me I cant move my own horse! I'd just do it!


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## Sarahgema (12 January 2009)

Get the vet to fill identification - once sent off move the horse - if anyone stops you or asks questions - the passports been sent off - keep the number of association so anyone can ring and check on its progress! 
No-one would tell me where I could take my horse - My warmblood doesn't have a passport - I've sent off for it! It only cost £25 for passport and £25 for vet to come out!


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## Ziggy_ (12 January 2009)

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Far as I know it's the selling without a passport which is illegal - not the buying.  Go figure...  
	
	
		
		
	


	





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Really?!

That makes the law even stupider than I thought. Absolute waste of time.


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## Fizzimyst (12 January 2009)

I'm in the same sitch, just had my horses come home and neither is passported. I need to get this done asap, where do I go to get it online. I googled it and lots came up, they're nothing special I just want them passported and legal.......


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## EquestrianFairy (12 January 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was sold a gelding without a passport and yes I may have been naive but kept being promised it (2 years now). It still hasn't been sorted and I need to remove the horse from the yard. I am speaking to trading standards about where I stand. However the person is saying that I owe them livery money. I have only verbally agreed to pay for the next two weeks and have no contract. They say that I need to pay the money for a month's notice. If I can't move the horse because I have no passport then I can't move him to cheaper livery. I feel like they've got me over a barrel. Any suggestions? 

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Get the horse passported yourself.

As for the yard if you have no contract then quite frankly you can do whatever you like within reason - that said its always good not to burn your bridges... 

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Its good to TRY and not burn your bridges...
(not always possible)


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## eriskaypony (12 January 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the same sitch, just had my horses come home and neither is passported. I need to get this done asap, where do I go to get it online. I googled it and lots came up, they're nothing special I just want them passported and legal....... 

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If the horses are a specific breed than the breed society will usually be a passport issuing agency and will issue one. If they are not a specific breed then 'The Horse Passport Agency', Farmkey, PetId etc will issue passports. I'm sure some of these have fast track processes.


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## eriskaypony (12 January 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Far as I know it's the selling without a passport which is illegal - not the buying.  Go figure...  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Really?!

That makes the law even stupider than I thought. Absolute waste of time. 

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason for that is that it is assumed that if you can't sell a horse you can't buy one so no need to make both sides of the transaction illegal.


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## Fransurrey (12 January 2009)

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[ QUOTE ]
move it then apply for a passport.. 

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she wont be able to without one..

and hasn't it seen a vet in 2 years???

Vaccs etc?? 

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Can't speak for everyone else, but I've had both ponies seen by vets in the last year (3 visits in total) and another visit not long after the passports came out. The last vet didn't even stamp the vaccination card, none of them have asked for a passport (which I had in the car)!


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## Fransurrey (12 January 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the same sitch, just had my horses come home and neither is passported. I need to get this done asap, where do I go to get it online. I googled it and lots came up, they're nothing special I just want them passported and legal....... 

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Veteran Horse Society do them the cheapest, still. You can also fill out the silhouette as a 'Competent Person' yourself, provided that you do not intend to compete under certain regulations.


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## MrsMozart (12 January 2009)

Why does the yard think you have to give them two weeks fees? Was it agreed when you discussed prices, etc., with them and made the decision to move there?

If it wasn't agreed then, and if you have not subsequently agreed changes to the terms you made at that time, then you don't have to pay the notice period.

When you discussed the prices and whatever else about the yard, and agreed to use the yard, then that's when you made the contract. A contract does not have to be written down, or signed, for it to be a legally binding contract.


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## Kenzo (12 January 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Why does the yard think you have to give them two weeks fees? Was it agreed when you discussed prices, etc., with them and made the decision to move there?

If it wasn't agreed then, and if you have not subsequently agreed changes to the terms you made at that time, then you don't have to pay the notice period.

When you discussed the prices and whatever else about the yard, and agreed to use the yard, then that's when you made the contract. A contract does not have to be written down, or signed, for it to be a legally binding contract. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, if its not a written contract which you have signed (which some liveries make you do) then a verbal agreement is well..... not worth the paper its written on, if you pardon the expression  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 although if you have both agreed then its better to stick to your word, but if you pay her up front and she's being arsey with you and telling you  you can't move, its because while your still there she's getting paid


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## MrsMozart (12 January 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why does the yard think you have to give them two weeks fees? Was it agreed when you discussed prices, etc., with them and made the decision to move there?

If it wasn't agreed then, and if you have not subsequently agreed changes to the terms you made at that time, then you don't have to pay the notice period.

When you discussed the prices and whatever else about the yard, and agreed to use the yard, then that's when you made the contract. A contract does not have to be written down, or signed, for it to be a legally binding contract. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, if its not a written contract which you have signed (which some liveries make you do) then a verbal agreement is well..... not worth the paper its written on, if you pardon the expression  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 although if you have both agreed then its better to stick to your word, but if you pay her up front and she's being arsey with you and telling you  you can't move, its because while your still there she's getting paid  
	
	
		
		
	


	





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Indeed 
	
	
		
		
	


	




. But, if all the liveries there have a one month notice period, and the history is such that they all do, so it is the norm, then 'reasonableness' would dictate that all liveries would have agreed to the one month notice period. 

Will the new yard not let the horse on without a passport?


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## jumpthemoon (12 January 2009)

You can move the horse without a passport. You can't move them without a passport for any of the below reasons, but you will be fine just to move yards. 

When a horse is moved into or out of Great Britain 
When a horse is used for the purposes of competition 
When a horse is moved to the premises of a new keeper 
When a horse is presented at a slaughterhouse for slaughter 
When a horse is sold 
When a horse is used for breeding purposes

Your YO has no comeback at all on the month notice thing. Apply for a passport - I think you should be able to get one from the horse passport agency. http://www.horsepassportagency.co.uk/org/registration.php 

Good luck


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## eriskaypony (12 January 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the same sitch, just had my horses come home and neither is passported. I need to get this done asap, where do I go to get it online. I googled it and lots came up, they're nothing special I just want them passported and legal....... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Veteran Horse Society do them the cheapest, still. You can also fill out the silhouette as a 'Competent Person' yourself, provided that you do not intend to compete under certain regulations. 

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You cannot do the silhouette yourslef. In England the legislation demands that the silhouette is done by an independent person, i.e. a vet or a competent representative from a recognised PIO.


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## Fransurrey (12 January 2009)

Sorry, but you're wrong. If you're not competing under the bodies listed in the guidelines(e.g. BE, SJA, BD), then you can do it yourself, copying the silhouette from the vacc cert. As a Happy Hacker, I fall into that category. Not many people do, granted, but it is possible. It means that if I should suddenly get the urge to go eventing (on a 12hh pony, ha ha!), then I'd have to get a new passport.


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## SpruceRI (12 January 2009)

It's no more illegal to have the horse sitting there without a passport to its name than it is to move it on foot or by transport somewhere else.

You're supposed to be able to produce it when asked.....


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## Kenzo (12 January 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but you're wrong. If you're not competing under the bodies listed in the guidelines(e.g. BE, SJA, BD), then you can do it yourself, copying the silhouette from the vacc cert. As a Happy Hacker, I fall into that category. Not many people do, granted, but it is possible. It means that if I should suddenly get the urge to go eventing (on a 12hh pony, ha ha!), then I'd have to get a new passport. 

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Doesn't still have to checked and signed by a vet though?


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## spaniel (12 January 2009)

Fran I think the problem here is that no silhouete is available to copy!


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## Donkeymad (12 January 2009)

QR

Whether or not you can complete a silhouette yourself will depend on the PIO, each of whom seem to have their own rules. The majority require a 'recognised' person to do it.

I don't understand why it has taken so long to get a passport.

A VERBAL agreement is as legal as a written agreement, so whether the rent is due or not will depend on what verbal agreement was reached. trying to prove it is the downfall with verbal agreements.


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## eriskaypony (13 January 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but you're wrong. If you're not competing under the bodies listed in the guidelines(e.g. BE, SJA, BD), then you can do it yourself, copying the silhouette from the vacc cert. As a Happy Hacker, I fall into that category. Not many people do, granted, but it is possible. It means that if I should suddenly get the urge to go eventing (on a 12hh pony, ha ha!), then I'd have to get a new passport. 

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In all cases the silhouette has to be either completed by or verified by a vet or competent person, unless the horse has a microchip. Please refer me to the guidelines that say different because this is what the DEFRA website says.

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From 1 February 2004, completed passport applications must contain silhouettes that have been verified and signed by either a veterinary surgeon or a competent representative from a recognised PIO. We have taken this measure to ensure that silhouettes are completed to a high standard and are verified independently. They will therefore more effectively identify the horse to which the passport relates.

If the rules of the PIO allow, a horse owner may complete and verify the passport silhouette providing that the animal is microchipped at the time the passport application is made.

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http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/id-move/horses/horses_qa.htm


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## MizElz (13 January 2009)

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[ QUOTE ]
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move it then apply for a passport.. 

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she wont be able to without one..

and hasn't it seen a vet in 2 years???

Vaccs etc?? 

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Can't speak for everyone else, but I've had both ponies seen by vets in the last year (3 visits in total) and another visit not long after the passports came out. The last vet didn't even stamp the vaccination card, none of them have asked for a passport (which I had in the car)! 

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Ditto, I've had three different vets come out to Elz in the past three years and not one has asked for a passport. Neither did the YO when I moved Ellie onto her yard - I was up front about not having one, and she said it was no problem! The whole thing is an utter farce


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## Fransurrey (13 January 2009)

Ah, I got my passports before that date. Sorry for confusion. Spaniel, very good point!!! I'll go sit quietly in the corner.


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## eriskaypony (13 January 2009)

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Ah, I got my passports before that date. Sorry for confusion. Spaniel, very good point!!! I'll go sit quietly in the corner. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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Ok now I understand.


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