# AES stallion gradings-can anyone give me the low down please.



## Prince33Sp4rkle (13 October 2014)

I have just literally acquired a 2yo Charmeur x Kennedy colt 

As well as a lovely elastic mover he is a very sweet,calm, not at all colty person (I am aware that may all change in spring lol)

I have no great breeding aspirations but if he has a trainable mind and does the business under saddle he can keep his nuts and I already have mare owners enquiring (sound, trainable, talented mares i hasten to add....). We also have great facilities where he can be a horse 

If he is ready next year it would be nice to get him graded and i feel the AES is the way to go but I am having a mega hard time getting clear and concise info on what's required and how much it all costs.

Any info appreciated and clearly if he turns out to be a 3 legged hooligan he will be gelded!!!!!!!!!!


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## justabob (13 October 2014)

Google Crackenthorpe Stud and give them a phone call. They stand 4 or 5 stallions and are very helpful, they will be able to answer all your questions.


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## Lgd (13 October 2014)

If you grade with AES at 3yo he will have to loose jump.
If think if you wait and present him older as a ridden dressage horse he only does the flat performance, not very clear on the AES site when I checked but that was certainly the case previously. 

Because of the expense my boy won't be going unless he proves himself under saddle in competition first. He was also not mature enough as a 3yo and I refuse to hot house them just to do a grading when I have no idea if he will do the job under saddle.

Costs £240 for the grading, plus a 5 stage vetting. Then £165+Vat annually

Other options are WBS, SHB-GB, ZfDP

Fly was more of a hooligan this summer than at 3yo. We had a few discussions about that and he has been fine since then! He is away at the moment to finish his backing and be ridden away.


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## Rollin (13 October 2014)

Do we know WHO is running AES now.  I note from minutes of WFSHB meeting on their website, that as of last year it was still not clear.

No minutes from this year.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (14 October 2014)

thanks LGD that makes total sense and i think the same as you that as a 4yo dressage horse he would only have to do flat ridden so i may well wait and do it as a 4yo 

Rollin-can you expand a bit please, very new to all this


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## Rollin (14 October 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			thanks LGD that makes total sense and i think the same as you that as a 4yo dressage horse he would only have to do flat ridden so i may well wait and do it as a 4yo 

Rollin-can you expand a bit please, very new to all this 

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I have a horse registered with AES which was based in the UK.  Then we were told there were disagreements between the Directors of the Stud Book, which was now being managed from Holland.

I did not have a foal to register with them last year so don't know what the situation is now.  I did notice it was discussed at a WFSHB meeting last year but no minutes from this year.


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## sywell (14 October 2014)

Rollin said:



			Do we know WHO is running AES now.  I note from minutes of WFSHB meeting on their website, that as of last year it was still not clear.
To my knowledge the two dutchmen who own the majority of shares.
The following from the rules of the WBFSH wiil give some studbooks problems.

Be a horse studbook that is a studbook of members and controlled by these members in a
democratic fashion
		
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## popsdosh (15 October 2014)

Try breeders elite they are very helpful set up by Henk minderman after the AES fell apart somewhat.


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## Rollin (15 October 2014)

popsdosh said:



			Try breeders elite they are very helpful set up by Henk minderman after the AES fell apart somewhat.
		
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Have Breeders Elite been accepted by WFSHB?  I know they have applied.  It does depend on what you want to do with your horse.  I know that many stud books will not accept progeny of CB stallions because CBHS is not a member of WFSHB.


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## Springs (15 October 2014)

You will need to allow a budget of around £1k and ideally get a name to present!


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## sarahhelen1977 (15 October 2014)

I presented Adonnis with AES as a 3 year old myself - did all my own prep, and handling. He was shown loose, didn't do any more than a little bit of lunging, lots of in hand work and a bit of loose jumping beforehand . Maybe I was lucky that he licensed without a 'name' on the end of the lead rein, and it didn't cost me any more than the entry and the vetting, but it goes to show that it is possible! It may be a little out of date now, but there is a video of his grading at Addington on YouTube - search Adonnis Stallion Gribaldi - that should wheedle out the dodgy videos!!


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## Springs (15 October 2014)

Very lucky I should think! I have a few experiences of preparing and presenting as well as watching gradings, some times think its just a lottery.


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## sarahhelen1977 (15 October 2014)

Lol! Or maybe they just liked him?!!


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## Rollin (16 October 2014)

I think it is great when breeders do their own preparation and presentation with good results.  Well done Sarah.

I was warned before one grading that you need to know what the judges are looking for.  I think they should be looking at conformation, athleticism and temperament.  Those should be judged in a consistent way.


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## Springs (16 October 2014)

Well they must of done to grade him! But like I said I have been to gradings and observed some shocking results, not taking anything away from your success and well done.


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## sywell (17 October 2014)

Rollin said:



			Have Breeders Elite been accepted by WFSHB?  I know they have applied.  It does depend on what you want to do with your horse.  I know that many stud books will not accept progeny of CB stallions because CBHS is not a member of WFSHB.
		
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There were approaches from Breeders Elite to the WBFSH in Warsaw last year as they are not accepted for the Young Horse Classes in Lanaken but they will find it difficult to comply with the statutes of the WBFSH "Be a horse studbook that is a studbook of members and controlled by these members in a democratic fashion " and they will need mare grading and public grading of stallions and mares not private.


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## Rollin (17 October 2014)

sywell said:



			There were approaches from Breeders Elite to the WBFSH in Warsaw last year as they are not accepted for the Young Horse Classes in Lanaken but they will find it difficult to comply with the statutes of the WBFSH "Be a horse studbook that is a studbook of members and controlled by these members in a democratic fashion " and they will need mare grading and public grading of stallions and mares not private.
		
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I have actually written to a member of the Executive Committee asking for more information, I saw the minutes from Warsaw.

I can think of another stud book which would face problems with Open Grading and Democracy!!  That is why I chose SHGB for my young horse.


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## sywell (17 October 2014)

There are two new applications this year but the Department headed by Alison of the IHB will report to the main board in Rio and then they will come forward at the Delegate conferance for a vote but there is no information on who they are at the moment.


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## popsdosh (17 October 2014)

Its not really an issue as it only affects two championships and it will be at least 3 more years before any youngstock would be eligible anyhow. I am sure everything will be sorted by then .I register all mine BE now!


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## popsdosh (17 October 2014)

sywell said:



			There were approaches from Breeders Elite to the WBFSH in Warsaw last year as they are not accepted for the Young Horse Classes in Lanaken but they will find it difficult to comply with the statutes of the WBFSH "Be a horse studbook that is a studbook of members and controlled by these members in a democratic fashion " and they will need mare grading and public grading of stallions and mares not private.
		
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So how is that different from AES


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## sywell (18 October 2014)

popsdosh said:



			Its not really an issue as it only affects two championships and it will be at least 3 more years before any youngstock would be eligible anyhow. I am sure everything will be sorted by then .I register all mine BE now!
		
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As a breeder I would only register my foals with a studbook and BE is not a studbook the regulations on what constitutes a breed society are quite strict in the legislation and that could effect Futurity entries; in the long term it is important and as breeding is now a much more international operation buyers from other countries expect horses to have breed society papers with verified pedigrees..


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## sywell (18 October 2014)

popsdosh said:



			So how is that different from AES
		
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The AES and Breeders Elite are seperate  organisations. The AES is recognised by the WBFSH and Breeders Elite is not so AES horses can enter the WBFSH young horse championships for Dressage,jumping and eventing but Breeders Elite cannot.


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## popsdosh (18 October 2014)

sywell said:



			As a breeder I would only register my foals with a studbook and BE is not a studbook the regulations on what constitutes a breed society are quite strict in the legislation and that could effect Futurity entries; in the long term it is important and as breeding is now a much more international operation buyers from other countries expect horses to have breed society papers with verified pedigrees..
		
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For BE read breeders elite by the time its an issue they will be members or are you saying they are not a studbook . At the end of the day if you go into detail the only one that does not offer mare gradings is the AES and part of the split was over private grading of stallions within europe which AES still have not addressed. All stock registered with breeders elite is able to enter the futurity and always will be as they are a recognised studbook! The WBFSH is merely a federation of various studbooks who have the 3 world championships they are not an overall official authority that every studbook has to belong to. If I had to put my money on it I know which of the two I think will survive longest.


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## sywell (18 October 2014)

popsdosh said:



			For BE read breeders elite by the time its an issue they will be members or are you saying they are not a studbook . At the end of the day if you go into detail the only one that does not offer mare gradings is the AES and part of the split was over private grading of stallions within europe which AES still have not addressed. All stock registered with breeders elite is able to enter the futurity and always will be as they are a recognised studbook! The WBFSH is merely a federation of various studbooks who have the 3 world championships they are not an overall official authority that every studbook has to belong to. If I had to put my money on it I know which of the two I think will survive longest.
		
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At meetings i have attended I did not see much support for BE membership of the WBFSH and the following also makes interesting reading.
Proposal for a DIRECTIVE OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND
OF THE COUNCIL amending Directives 89/608/EEC, 90/425/EEC and
91/496/EEC as regards references to zootechnical legislation


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## Rollin (19 October 2014)

sywell said:



			At meetings i have attended I did not see much support for BE membership of the WBFSH and the following also makes interesting reading.
Proposal for a DIRECTIVE OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND
OF THE COUNCIL amending Directives 89/608/EEC, 90/425/EEC and
91/496/EEC as regards references to zootechnical legislation
		
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Sywell could you indulge me with a link to the above articles, I know last time I was looking for something on the EU Parliament website it took ages to find.


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## sywell (20 October 2014)

If you give me an email address I will send a copy of it and the new 504/2008.hanoveriangb@gmail.com


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## Rollin (20 October 2014)

sywell said:



			If you give me an email address I will send a copy of it and the new 504/2008.hanoveriangb@gmail.com
		
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Will do.  I did do a search yesterday but could only find Directives for Industry, nothing for equidae or zootechnics.


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## Springs (23 December 2014)

popsdosh said:



			For BE read breeders elite by the time its an issue they will be members or are you saying they are not a studbook . At the end of the day if you go into detail the only one that does not offer mare gradings is the AES and part of the split was over private grading of stallions within europe which AES still have not addressed. All stock registered with breeders elite is able to enter the futurity and always will be as they are a recognised studbook! The WBFSH is merely a federation of various studbooks who have the 3 world championships they are not an overall official authority that every studbook has to belong to. If I had to put my money on it I know which of the two I think will survive longest.
		
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This is very true and I could not have said it better. It would appear the members of the WBFSH are in direct competition with Breeders Elite for the same business and it is in there best interest for them to deny Breeders Elite entry to the federation....


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## Rollin (26 December 2014)

Springs said:



			This is very true and I could not have said it better. It would appear the members of the WBFSH are in direct competition with Breeders Elite for the same business and it is in there best interest for them to deny Breeders Elite entry to the federation....
		
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I know from personal experience that if a stallion is not graded by a WBFSH member he will not be accepted into another stud book without a new grading.


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## Bedlam (26 December 2014)

I suspect that Breeders Elite may end up WFBSH accredited and I have great respect for Henk. I would not, however, register, license or grade a young stallion (or mare) with them as they are not yet accredited and my suspicion may well be wrong. Why take the risk if you don't have a personal interest in making the studbooks a success? Why not go with one that already is? So - my best bet would be SHBGB to be honest.


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## sywell (27 December 2014)

Studbooks that do not have a democratic constitution where the Committee or Board is elected by the members have two years to correct that problem as it is a condition of membership of the WBFSH and I am give to understand BE & AES do not have an elected board or committee


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## Springs (29 December 2014)

Rollin said:



			I know from personal experience that if a stallion is not graded by a WBFSH member he will not be accepted into another stud book without a new grading.
		
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Yes this seems to be true but I would have to question if it's allowed legally. The WBFSH is a federation of warm blood breeders and its sole purpose is to promote that brand and the interests of its members. In the UK it really has no legal standing that I know of and can only act in an advisory capacity. The actual governing body is DEFRA of which all stud books have to be approved by to operate within the UK so they really should recognise each other, but the problem here is standards I.e. Each stud book has different standards on operation and grading and are all competing for the same market... All a bit of a mess I think.


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## Rollin (29 December 2014)

Springs said:



			Yes this seems to be true but I would have to question if it's allowed legally. The WBFSH is a federation of warm blood breeders and its sole purpose is to promote that brand and the interests of its members. In the UK it really has no legal standing that I know of and can only act in an advisory capacity. The actual governing body is DEFRA of which all stud books have to be approved by to operate within the UK so they really should recognise each other, but the problem here is standards I.e. Each stud book has different standards on operation and grading and are all competing for the same market... All a bit of a mess I think.
		
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Yes it is a mess.  One breed society does not require stallions to be swabbed.  Two societies of which I am a member have very stringent requirements for swabbing and vaccinations.

The grading process is variable too.  One breed society I know only requires a vet certificate for a basic stallion licence.  Performance requirements for my Shagya stallion were tougher in France than in Germany, for the same Stud Book A.  For this stud book the grading process was very stringent, with 5 international judges as well as equivalent to a 5 stage vetting, in order to insure that only stallions who meet breed standards are licensed.

Some stud books require x-rays and even these can vary.  I think it is a bit of a lottery.


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## sywell (1 January 2015)

The AES is run by the two Dutchmen and they  have two years to turn the AES into a democratic organisation with an elected board if they wish to remain members of the WBFSH Henk's EB society had its membership turned down.


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## Springs (7 January 2015)

sywell said:



			The AES is run by the two Dutchmen and they  have two years to turn the AES into a democratic organisation with an elected board if they wish to remain members of the WBFSH Henk's EB society had its membership turned down.
		
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Yes I know, I can't see BE been accepted just yet as the federation is run by its own membership and they are all competing for the same market share so it stands to reason that there will be a huge resistance to letting BE into it in the UK


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## sywell (8 January 2015)

Springs said:



			Yes this seems to be true but I would have to question if it's allowed legally. The WBFSH is a federation of warm blood breeders and its sole purpose is to promote that brand and the interests of its members. In the UK it really has no legal standing that I know of and can only act in an advisory capacity. The actual governing body is DEFRA of which all stud books have to be approved by to operate within the UK so they really should recognise each other, but the problem here is standards I.e. Each stud book has different standards on operation and grading and are all competing for the same market... All a bit of a mess I think.
		
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This is not quite correct DEFRA only approve organisations to issue passports in the UK but studbooks like the KWPN issue passports in the UK and they get their studbook recognition from there own Min of Ag. A daughter society would need DEFRA approval to issue passports in the UK but could operate as a daughter stud book under EU legislation but has to have the same rules as the parent society. The different standards of the studbooks on the evaluation of a horse relate to the discipline it is designed for so temprement in a jumping horse may be different from a dressage horse.


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## Rollin (8 January 2015)

Sywell,

My Shagya stallion had to complete 3 x90km endurance for Shagya Stud Book A in France, and at the age of 6.  In Germany for the same stud book he would have needed to do only 2 x90kms by the age of 7.

I actually complained to IFCE, AFCAS, and spoke to Dr. Meisner at the GEF.  He told me there was NO co-ordination of stud book rules across the EU.  It would appear you can do what you want.

We actually did it but with hours of careful training and strict rules for our stable jockey who was an absolute star.


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## sywell (13 January 2015)

I have been trying to interest British Breeding of the BEF to have a basic guide to studbook requirements and Celia is also interested in this. The idea is to have a simple table with tick boxes to show what indivdual studbooks want. the breeder could then see which studbooks require stallions under saddle,who needs leg xrays,DNA parenatge testing,dam grading ect. Some studbooks allow young stallions to cover in their first year a limited number mares but the next year will have to show performance requirements and colts from the first year cannot come forward as stallions if the sire fails its performance requirements. It is a minefield for the new breeder who then ends up with a foal who they have to register with a studbook they did not want because it does not meet the requirements of the studbook they were breeding for.


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## Rollin (13 January 2015)

I agree with you.  Look at my two rare breeds.  CBHS give a basic stallion licence after a 5 stage vetting.  The vet is no judge of Breed Standard.

QA is given on proven fertility and Breed Standard but NO performance requirement.

My Shagya stallion was graded at 3 years of age.  Equivalent to Five stage vetting BUT judged by five international judges.  So he met breed standard but no serious breeder is going to send a mare to him until he has 'performance'  another 3 years.  For me this has been, including pregnancy, 7 years of investment.

What if we found he was infertile?  (he is not by the way)

So we bred him to a CB mare, we also graded him to SHGB and now we have a stunning foal who is registered with SHGB.  We planned her future before we bred her.  I hope I live long enough to see her compete internationally and say "I told you so".

Meanwhile my CB stallion also produces foals of quality but no one will be interested in them till they compete.  I had two visitors to my farm, one is an enthusiast for classical dressage, the other now competing at PSG.  Who attracted their attention?

A CB stallion who no one other than a fan would breed from and his first daughter.  The observer just kept saying - "what a fabulous mare, I really like her"

The Cleveland Bay is on the RBST 'critical list'.


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