# Laminitis or concussion? Barefoot TB



## Vetwrap (19 June 2012)

At this thime of year, would you treat all lameness as though it were laminitis?  Horse is now sound, after 2 weeks boxrest.  There is some bruising showing just at his toe, through the sole.

It could be concussion, as he went lame after working on hard ground - but it could be laminitis (though he is not overweight at all).

Would you keep him in for another month, as per standard lami treatment advice - or would you boot up and see how he goes?

Awesome ginger cake on offer in return for help and advice.


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## Archangel (19 June 2012)

I would treat for laminitis myself.  My mare did this years ago, vet said def not laminitis (no reaction to the hoof testers but bounding pulse) and to turn her out.  I wasn't happy and actually carried on treating as if for laminitis and in the new growth on her hoof there was a very narrow tight band in it (not the usual laminitic ridge).  I reckon she had thundered about the field and the concussion brought on a brief episode of laminitis. 

So I am a yes and thank you for the cake.


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## YasandCrystal (19 June 2012)

I agree and would err on the side of caution and treat as for laminitis. My mare has stress laminitis and whilst diet has clearly not caused her laminitis she must still be rehabed with a no sugar diet etc. just the same. So if your boy has maybe mild concussion laminitis he would need the same treatment


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## Oberon (19 June 2012)

Vetwrap said:



			At this thime of year, would you treat all lameness as though it were laminitis?  Horse is now sound, after 2 weeks boxrest.  There is some bruising showing just at his toe, through the sole.

It could be concussion, as he went lame after working on hard ground - but it could be laminitis (though he is not overweight at all).

Would you keep him in for another month, as per standard lami treatment advice - or would you boot up and see how he goes?

Awesome ginger cake on offer in return for help and advice.



Click to expand...

So is the issue that the horse has a thin sole and is bruised from that versus the hard ground?

Or is the issue that the laminae connection is weak due to metabolic issues/diet/peripheral loading or a combination of all three?

A healthy hoof isn't affected by hard ground (to this extent) but an unhealthy hoof will be. So the question is why is the hoof unhealthy?


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## Vetwrap (19 June 2012)

Thanks for your replies.  

He has always been barefoot, but this is the first year in proper work.  I am sure that this is down to my management - and I am feeling awful about having let him down, so am anxious to get this right.

He was out at grass and coming in for feed and haylage.  He has always had lo-sugar diet with magnesium and brewers yeast, trimmer advised me to double this when he initially went footie, but when dosage doubled, he stopped eating his feed.

Feed is Fast Fibre, Calmer chaff, Osmond's Lamitox (50g "at risk" dosage), 25g heavy magnesium, twice daily - with 50g Settlex in breakfast feed (he windsucks and weaves).

He has boots, but I had not been using them until suggested by trimmer.  He has been on box rest for 2.5 weeks now, deep bed, hay - and is sound.







This is the bruising that I mean.  I have not pressure tested his feet at all.

Thanks for your replies.  I've not had a working barefoot horse before.


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## Archie73 (19 June 2012)

Hmmm bruising at the toe of on both feet more likely to be actual blood from week bleeding lamini etc


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## Archie73 (19 June 2012)

Boot up if bet agrees sorry autos phone!


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## Archie73 (19 June 2012)

Sorry just saw pic. Boot up I say with pads.


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## Vetwrap (19 June 2012)

Thanks for you replies - and for persisting!  Right, will go and have a look for pads for the boots.

In the meantime, no turnout then?  Treat as laminitis?


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## Vetwrap (19 June 2012)

Oberon said:



			So is the issue that the horse has a thin sole and is bruised from that versus the hard ground?

Or is the issue that the laminae connection is weak due to metabolic issues/diet/peripheral loading or a combination of all three?

A healthy hoof isn't affected by hard ground (to this extent) but an unhealthy hoof will be. So the question is why is the hoof unhealthy?
		
Click to expand...

I'm really grateful for your reply - but I don't know how to find the answers to the questions you ask.  Is there an "idiot's guide" somewhere???

Sorry - really not trying to be smart, but I want to do the right thing for him and I am very aware of the fact that if I do the wrong thing, he suffers for it - not me.


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## Oberon (19 June 2012)

Vetwrap said:



			Thanks for your replies.  

He has always been barefoot, but this is the first year in proper work.  I am sure that this is down to my management - and I am feeling awful about having let him down, so am anxious to get this right.

He was out at grass and coming in for feed and haylage.  He has always had lo-sugar diet with magnesium and brewers yeast, trimmer advised me to double this when he initially went footie, but when dosage doubled, he stopped eating his feed.

Feed is Fast Fibre, Calmer chaff, Osmond's Lamitox (50g "at risk" dosage), 25g heavy magnesium, twice daily - with 50g Settlex in breakfast feed (he windsucks and weaves).

He has boots, but I had not been using them until suggested by trimmer.  He has been on box rest for 2.5 weeks now, deep bed, hay - and is sound.







This is the bruising that I mean.  I have not pressure tested his feet at all.

Thanks for your replies.  I've not had a working barefoot horse before.
		
Click to expand...

So there is bruising to the toe area. Difficult to see properly but the sole looks very flat to me.

Fast Fibre is safe as a base to mix supplements into.
Calmer chaff = ? which calmer chaff and what are the ingredients?
Osmond's Lamitox = very fancy sounding ingredients that don't make sense and then I saw the dreaded words Iron Oxide 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.
Settlex - don't know what's in it?


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## Oberon (19 June 2012)

Vetwrap said:



			I'm really grateful for your reply - but I don't know how to find the answers to the questions you ask.  Is there an "idiot's guide" somewhere???

Sorry - really not trying to be smart, but I want to do the right thing for him and I am very aware of the fact that if I do the wrong thing, he suffers for it - not me.  

Click to expand...

It's a case of digging until we find the answer.

Horses are a PITA. Every time we think we've found a solution to a problem...another horse will come along and disprove it 

But there are usual culprits with sore hooves...
1. Diet
2. Aggressive trimming
3. Thrush

I'm not suggesting this is what's going on with yours, but they're usually the problem.
Then we get into more complicated issues like metabolic problems, workload, body issues etc.....

Sometimes it's tempting to suggest to put shoes on


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## Vetwrap (19 June 2012)

Oberon said:



			So there is bruising to the toe area. Difficult to see properly but the sole looks very flat to me.

Fast Fibre is safe as a base to mix supplements into.
Calmer chaff = ? which calmer chaff and what are the ingredients?
Osmond's Lamitox = very fancy sounding ingredients that don't make sense and then I saw the dreaded words Iron Oxide 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.
Settlex - don't know what's in it?
		
Click to expand...


Thanks for coming back to me.  

The calmer chaff is the Marksway one - breakdown is here - http://www.horsehage.co.uk/analysis.html

Feedmark Settlex (but this has only just been started last night to try and reduce the windsucking) - http://www.feedmark.com/Product.asp?Product=settelex&s=show

I almost dread asking the question, but what is the problem with Iron Oxide?  It's a big no no?


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## YasandCrystal (19 June 2012)

It's very difficult to get to the bottom and cause of some issues if not impossible.
My mare has sensitive soles - she has been tested for Cusihings and EMS with negative results. I have tried twice to transition to barefoot and both times she was too sore. Shoeing infront obviously helped lift her soles off the hard ground. Her diet is low sugar/starch. Her companions are fine. 

My vet concurs that she may have metabolic issues going on from the grass sickness she suffered from years ago. An old owner advised me she hand fed her vegetables for 18 months to get her through this. This could have had long lasting effects.


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## Vetwrap (19 June 2012)

If he has to have shoes, then he will have them, but I would like to see if booting works before taking that step.

So, I'm happy to keep him in for the time being, but if I am looking at booting him up with pads, how do you know which pads to go for?  Go for medium, as a "middle road" type thing?


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## Oberon (19 June 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			It's very difficult to get to the bottom and cause of some issues if not impossible.
My mare has sensitive soles - she has been tested for Cusihings and EMS with negative results. I have tried twice to transition to barefoot and both times she was too sore. Shoeing infront obviously helped lift her soles off the hard ground. Her diet is low sugar/starch. Her companions are fine. 

My vet concurs that she may have metabolic issues going on from the grass sickness she suffered from years ago. An old owner advised me she hand fed her vegetables for 18 months to get her through this. This could have had long lasting effects.
		
Click to expand...

I think her previous grass sickness may be the key here...but it's beyond my knowledge of how.

There are some horses who's needs, we are far away from being able to understand or fix.

Has your OH ever heard of laser tips? http://www.barehoofcare.com/laser_tips.html

We 'hoof nerds' had a lady in Oz who was trialling them with her racehorse. She reported positive results (when she applied them herself rather than the guy who came and mutilated the hooves initially ) but other issues meant the horse had to take time off again. I've asked her for another update.

Obviously if shoes work for her, then fine. But if it came to needing another option - maybe Tips might be it?


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## YasandCrystal (19 June 2012)

Oberon said:



			I think her previous grass sickness may be the key here...but it's beyond my knowledge of how.

There are some horses who's needs, we are far away from being able to understand or fix.

Has your OH ever heard of laser tips? http://www.barehoofcare.com/laser_tips.html

We 'hoof nerds' had a lady in Oz who was trialling them with her racehorse. She reported positive results (when she applied them herself rather than the guy who came and mutilated the hooves initially ) but other issues meant the horse had to take time off again. I've asked her for another update.

Obviously if shoes work for her, then fine. But if it came to needing another option - maybe Tips might be it?
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for this - I will show hubby. She's in Imprints at the moment and as she has sinkage I suspect we may have to go to heartbars, as that is irreversible   but for now one step at a time. My aim is to get her field sound and happy .


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## Oberon (19 June 2012)

Vetwrap said:



			The calmer chaff is the Marksway one - breakdown is here - http://www.horsehage.co.uk/analysis.html

Click to expand...

Combined sugar and starch of 12% - should feed no higher than 10%. Plus it contains dried grass - a bit pointless keeping her off grass and then feeding it in a bucket . 



Vetwrap said:



			Feedmark Settlex (but this has only just been started last night to try and reduce the windsucking) - http://www.feedmark.com/Product.asp?Product=settelex&s=show

Click to expand...

Your standard limestone flour, chalk and magnesium antacid preparation. I can't see how that would have a negative effect on the hooves.



Vetwrap said:



			I almost dread asking the question, but what is the problem with Iron Oxide?  It's a big no no?
		
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Iron tends to be high in the forage anyway. Then we add more in the feeds.
Excess amounts of iron has a negative effect;

	Predisposition to infection
	Secondary zinc and copper deficiency
	Predisposition to arthritis
	Increased risk of tendon/ligament problems
	Liver disease
	Altered glucose metabolism
	Insulin resistance 

Added to the fact that copper and zinc are consistently found lacking in the UK's forage that has been tested so far (also the US), the iron messes with the absorption of what little copper and zinc there is.

Copper helps to create connective tissue (like tendons, ligaments, the laminae) and zinc help to create good quality tissue (like skin and hooves) and also production and control of insulin. 

So it makes sense to focus on supplementing copper and zinc to jump over the high iron found in forage - especially where metabolism is in question.

Reading the bumpf on the feeds you are giving - they all sound great and they carry the correct 'Laminitis Trust' pedigree mad...but when you dig a bit deeper they don't seem so great 

That may not be the whole answer. I'm not suggesting changing the feeds is the magic cure......but it may be a start?

Lami type problems tend to be an accumulation of negatives that push them over the edge, rather than one thing.


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## criso (19 June 2012)

My TB  went a bit footy on Thurs - wanting to go on the verges rather than the stoney tracks.  It coincided with  walking  through an electric fence and letting  himself into a larger ungrazed area.  He had been been fine on the area he was put in. He is now out overnight (turned out about 8pm)  with a grazing muzzle and is much better.  He is not overweight at all but when the grass is as rich as it is at the moment it's too much. 

The problem with box rest is you don't know if the improvement is from taking him off the grass or the restricted/controlled  movement. Can you play with turnout times, limiting access to grass,  maybe muzzling as that would help you see if the grass is causing problems.


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## Oberon (19 June 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			Thanks for this - I will show hubby. She's in Imprints at the moment and as she has sinkage I suspect we may have to go to heartbars, as that is irreversible   but for now one step at a time. My aim is to get her field sound and happy .
		
Click to expand...

I think Tips would have to be something to think about when she is out of the acute phase.

I disagree that sinkage is permanent. Growing a new hoof capsule (or two or even three) will gradually send the bone back up (or relax the capsule down around the bone - depending on your POV) if done in conjunction with dietary and mechanical support.

You may never have a horse that can manage with no protection at all, but heart bars are soooooo 1972 

I'd like to see how she went on with Sole-Guard and wraps...seeing as your OH can replace them for free every 4 weeks or so 

(Ignore the farrier MUTILATING the sole and frog in this vid) 
	
	
		
		
	


	




. When I contacted Vettec, they said Sole-Guard was their best product to use with BF horses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfm81FBQdY0

and wraps (although just the Sole-Guard may be sufficient)
http://www.healthyhoof.com/articles/HoofCasting.php

This way you can get protection while engaging the whole hoof mechanism, rather than just loading that weak laminae connection.


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## YasandCrystal (19 June 2012)

Oberon said:



			I think Tips would have to be something to think about when she is out of the acute phase.

I disagree that sinkage is permanent. Growing a new hoof capsule (or two or even three) will gradually send the bone back up (or relax the capsule down around the bone - depending on your POV) if done in conjunction with dietary and mechanical support.

You may never have a horse that can manage with no protection at all, but heart bars are soooooo 1972 

I'd like to see how she went on with Sole-Guard and wraps...seeing as your OH can replace them for free every 4 weeks or so 

(Ignore the farrier MUTILATING the sole and frog in this vid) 
	
	
		
		
	


	




. When I contacted Vettec, they said Sole-Guard was their best product to use with BF horses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfm81FBQdY0

and wraps (although just the Sole-Guard may be sufficient)
http://www.healthyhoof.com/articles/HoofCasting.php

This way you can get protection while engaging the whole hoof mechanism, rather than just loading that weak laminae connection.
		
Click to expand...

oh thankyou for this.  My hubby didn't dare touch my mare's sole - it's flaking off naturally at the moment. He knows just how precious this horse is to me.
I am using all the natural things I can to assist her healing, like giving her fresh herbs and dried rosehips.
Off to watch these vids now. Thanks again 

Oh yes - I will get him putting sole guard on for me. I am sure he uses it actually. Brilliant the perfect solution once we get here. Yes it will be interesting to see if the sinkage ever recovers. She has 14mm sink and 7.2% rotation and in the other fore 12mm sink and 6.8% rotation 
Hubby was pleased to see that she was perfectly even/balanced in her sink due to his lovely balance.


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## Oberon (19 June 2012)

Vetwrap said:



			If he has to have shoes, then he will have them, but I would like to see if booting works before taking that step.

So, I'm happy to keep him in for the time being, but if I am looking at booting him up with pads, how do you know which pads to go for?  Go for medium, as a "middle road" type thing?
		
Click to expand...

I think 6mm pads are the usual recommended thickness.

This is decent book and covers boots and pads too.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Barefoo...9874/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340131407&sr=8-1


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## Jobo9 (19 June 2012)

I am having similar problems with my horse that I have on loan.  He had laminitis 5 years ago and has apparently been fine ever since but I have not taken any chances and he is on strip grazing and is not overweight (I can still see all his ribs) Unfortunately he was very footy 10 days ago and so I kept an eye on him but he got no better so after 2 days got the vet out who used hoof testers and found him to be very sensitive on 3 hooves.  Also evidence of bleeding/bruising on sole.  He was put into a tiny area of his paddock so still next to his friend (he would box walk and fret terribly if kept in) and given bute twice a day in safe and sound feed. Also getting soaked hay twice a day. 
Vet says it could be concussion from running around in field but I was doing fun rides and jumping him a month ago and he did not go lame then.  Also could be stress from moving home 3 months ago and change in type of grazing!! Or it could be cushings although he has no other signs.  He is not getting worse and I reduced bute to one a day today (on advice of vet) but I am very worried as we dont know what has caused it.  I am getting different advice from people and many say to not keep him and give him back to his owner but I love him to bits already and love riding him.  We seemed to click instantly which is hard to find in a horse.  I want to give him time to recover and see how we get on but am I being too optimistic and is this likely to be a recurrent problem?


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## LucyPriory (20 June 2012)

Have you read 'reversing distal decent of P3'?  www.hoofrehab.com under articles - left of web page


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