# Bullnose Hooves



## JackAT (14 February 2013)

Morning all! 

This is just out of curiosity more than anything else. After reading through the thread about Taliban and his hoof issues resolving (fantastic progress by the way), I saw an unfamiliar term. 

It was cptrayes talking about "bullnose hinds" and I can see why they get their name from the photo, but I don't know what they are, or what the implications of them are. 

So, could someone shed some light for me? About why they occur, what implications they have on the horse, and what to do about them? 

Thanks!


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## cptrayes (14 February 2013)

The implications are that the curve on the front of the hoof is being caused by the tip of the pedal bone pushing out the hoof wall. If this is the case, then the horse would have to have negative coffin bone angle to make that happen. 

In most cases they will disappear within 6 months if you get the horse onto a low carbohydrate and high fibre diet, though some people have badly unbalanced minerals in their grazing/forage that needs adjustment too. I am in that group, with high iron and sky high manganese levels as a result of which I have to feed  copper.

Anyone who is looking at their own horses feet, it is far, far more common on the hinds, but do not mistake it with your farrier (or your horse) taking off the toes. The curve for a bullnose is usually about half way up the foot and the curve will usually be smooth and uninterrupted. A rasped/worn toe is usually bottom third only with a fairly clear change of direction.


By the way JackAT, the Taliban is us barefoot geeks, not the name of the horse


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## JackAT (14 February 2013)

Thanks for replying promptly! An education in more ways than one...slightly embarrassing but that's how I learn! Apologies to JVB as well, I thought it was an odd name for a horse haha 

Do you know what causes it to happen? Is it a nutritional thing, like too much carbs and sugar that weakens the hoof?


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## cptrayes (14 February 2013)

It's two things. The first is nutrition, causing a weakness of the laminae that allows the pedal bone to shift. The second is lack of function in the back of the foot. Lack of stimulation (sadly often the case in shoes)  allows the back half of the foot  to atrophy (use it or lose it) so the back of the pedal bone is not being held up as it should be by digital cushion and good thick hard frog. So the back of the pedal bone drops, and of course the front is then higher and poking out upwards.


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## ester (14 February 2013)

My lad had them, he had some reverse rotation of his pedal bones and I think the altered position of them was causing the convex profile (ie it was sticking forwards a bit.)eta.. in the way that cp trayes described we had weak back of foot/under run heels etc






The new growth since going barefoot is now straight. I should take some fresh pics (as I only have partway through ones, I've been slacking!


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## cptrayes (14 February 2013)

Perfect example Ester - 10/10 



A great example too how heels that look good and solid from the outside simply don't have enough "stuffing" inside that hard outer shell to support the back of the pedal bone properly. 

JackAT Ester had to take her horse barefoot to solve that problem. If it's not diet related then I don't know any other way of rebuilding the back half of a foot internally than to take off the shoes and get the foot working as it was supposed to.


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## Kat (14 February 2013)

On the other hand, mine had a negative pedal bone angle on x-ray and no bull nosing. She had been unshod on the hinds (with the negative angle) all her life, and at the time although her diet wasn't as low sugar as barefooters advocate it wasn't high sugar either. 

My farrier speculated that the wet weather we have had this year may have contributed to the increase in the number of horses with negative pedal bone angles he has encountered this year. He said normally it is obviously the result of underrun heels etc but this year he has seen it even in well shod or bare feet.


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## ester (14 February 2013)

I must take some new pics they look pretty good now and consistent heel first and we've been jumping on the beach , slight issue getting one frog sorted but working on it 

JackAT, that was after 2 lots of shoeings in bar shoes trying to correct the under run heels he had and from the outside the feet certainly looked better but it didn't improve the lameness/what was going on inside.


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## JackAT (14 February 2013)

Interesting! I can see how this barefoot thing can get quite time/life consuming! 

One other point, I've been thinking of a negative pedal bone angle as a pedal bone with which the posterior portion has dipped so far, it has gone below the anterior portion, therefore past the point of being horizontal. 

Is that right?


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## cptrayes (14 February 2013)

Kat said:



			On the other hand, mine had a negative pedal bone angle on x-ray and no bull nosing. She had been unshod on the hinds (with the negative angle) all her life, and at the time although her diet wasn't as low sugar as barefooters advocate it wasn't high sugar either. 

My farrier speculated that the wet weather we have had this year may have contributed to the increase in the number of horses with negative pedal bone angles he has encountered this year. He said normally it is obviously the result of underrun heels etc but this year he has seen it even in well shod or bare feet.
		
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Yes it's not exclusive to bullnosed feet, unfortunately, or it would be easier to spot horses who have it. Bullnosing pobably won't be there on any horse with a long toe, or any horse with such loose connectivity that there is room between the bone and the hoof wall for the pedal bone to move.  It tends to be the ones with solid looking heels that are most obviously bullnosed.

I'm really intrigued by your farriers belief that wet weather has caused more negative pedal bone angles. The only connection I can see is that because the summer was so wet, the grass was lethal, and a lot of horses will have had reduced connectivity because of that.


People whose horses are consistently getting sore in the back for no reason they can find would to well to xray the hind feet for pedal bone negative rotation. I think far more horses have it than we realise.


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## cptrayes (14 February 2013)

JackAT said:



			One other point, I've been thinking of a negative pedal bone angle as a pedal bone with which the posterior portion has dipped so far, it has gone below the anterior portion, therefore past the point of being horizontal. 

Is that right?
		
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D'ya mean the tip is higher than the back? Yup


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## ester (14 February 2013)

not always Jack, it should sit at a slight positive angle.. Frank's were essentially 'flat'

not the best pic..


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## cptrayes (14 February 2013)

Ester you can see in that xray that the bulge on the front of Franks foot is exactly where the bulge on the front of his pedal bone is, can't you?


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## JVB (14 February 2013)

JackAT said:



			Thanks for replying promptly! An education in more ways than one...slightly embarrassing but that's how I learn! Apologies to JVB as well, I thought it was an odd name for a horse haha 

Do you know what causes it to happen? Is it a nutritional thing, like too much carbs and sugar that weakens the hoof?
		
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Hahaha That is brilliant! Not offended in the slightest! Lol


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## nikkimariet (14 February 2013)

Just chipping in my two pence worth of bullnosed feet pics...

Left hind











Right hind












The timeline is Jan 12 (newly BF) to Sept 12.

Whilst it's obvious that the angles have changed, it's interesting to see the changes underneath too.


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## MotherOfChickens (14 February 2013)

this is interesting that its thought to be diet related-I was on a course at a well known equine college last year and I would think that maybe 75% of horses I saw there had bull-nosed hooves behind. Not many of them were very sound either and all had very underun heels-some had not been there less than a year (working liveries) and their feet weren't so bad. I have been told in the past that its due to a certain type of shoeing (and I can't remember the name right now) not giving the heels any support? I couldn't believe that there were all these horses with such bad feet and noone seemed to notice...


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## JVB (14 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Ester you can see in that xray that the bulge on the front of Franks foot is exactly where the bulge on the front of his pedal bone is, can't you?
		
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Not quite getting it, why is there a bulge in the pedal bone? I get it that if the pedal bone has tipped up then it would cause a bulge on the wall leading to bull nosed hoof, how is this different? Or isn't it?


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## JVB (14 February 2013)

nikkimariet said:



			The timeline is Jan 12 (newly BF) to Sept 12.

Whilst it's obvious that the angles have changed, it's interesting to see the changes underneath too.
		
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Wow, totally see the angle change there, amazing difference - like the hoof has been taken off and put on again, got it!


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## TwoStroke (14 February 2013)

Another photo showing a bullnosed hoof growing out after going barefoot:







This horse was x-rayed and found to have reverse rotated pedal bones. In this case caused both by a weak caudal hoof and starch overload.


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## cptrayes (14 February 2013)

JVB said:



			Not quite getting it, why is there a bulge in the pedal bone? I get it that if the pedal bone has tipped up then it would cause a bulge on the wall leading to bull nosed hoof, how is this different? Or isn't it? 

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There just is, it's the way they are often shaped.




Nikkimariet's horse is also a full thoroughbred ex racer. So much for the feet he arrived with being "typical thoroughbred feet caused by genetics", eh??


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## Kat (14 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Yes it's not exclusive to bullnosed feet, unfortunately, or it would be easier to spot horses who have it. Bullnosing pobably won't be there on any horse with a long toe, or any horse with such loose connectivity that there is room between the bone and the hoof wall for the pedal bone to move.  It tends to be the ones with solid looking heels that are most obviously bullnosed.

I'm really intrigued by your farriers belief that wet weather has caused more negative pedal bone angles. The only connection I can see is that because the summer was so wet, the grass was lethal, and a lot of horses will have had reduced connectivity because of that.


People whose horses are consistently getting sore in the back for no reason they can find would to well to xray the hind feet for pedal bone negative rotation. I think far more horses have it than we realise.
		
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Mine didn't have classic long toes and underrun heels either. 

I think that the other link to the weather was soft ground and the lack of support to the foot and especially the heel if the horse is standing in mud coupled with perhaps less/different wear/growth. 

I don't think he has any actual evidence, it was purely anecdotal..... 

Diet wise, our grass was so rubbish in 2012 that I had to feed both hard feed and haylage all summer and my girl was coming in hungry. The previous year I had no foot problems, there was more grass, and she wasn't having any more than a tiny token feed.


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## ester (14 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Ester you can see in that xray that the bulge on the front of Franks foot is exactly where the bulge on the front of his pedal bone is, can't you?
		
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Yes, the profile of the pedal bone fits exactly with what the profile of the front of his foot was on both fronts . 

We haven't re-xrayed as there is no point, but I am extrapolating from his new hoof profile that everything is back where it should be


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## pinklilly (14 February 2013)

A very informative post thanks.

My tb was diagnosed with negative angle pedal bones behind.  X-rays here -

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151315848345159.525896.786005158&type=3


Horse and foot pics -

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150319185685159.388498.786005158&type=3


I have learnt far more from here about the diet in relation to feet and the foot than any where else.  Currently transitioning to barefoot, fronts are off, hinds to follow.

My vet has never mentioned diet as having a part to play in the soundness, nor has my farrier.


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## philamena (14 February 2013)

pinklilly said:



			A very informative post thanks.

My tb was diagnosed with negative angle pedal bones behind.  X-rays here -

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151315848345159.525896.786005158&type=3


Horse and foot pics -

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150319185685159.388498.786005158&type=3


I have learnt far more from here about the diet in relation to feet and the foot than any where else.  Currently transitioning to barefoot, fronts are off, hinds to follow.

My vet has never mentioned diet as having a part to play in the soundness, nor has my farrier.
		
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Interesting pics, thanks for sharing... Interested to know, was it lameness or back problems that alerted you to the feet probs?


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## cptrayes (14 February 2013)

pinklilly said:



			I have learnt far more from here about the diet in relation to feet and the foot than any where else.  Currently transitioning to barefoot, fronts are off, hinds to follow.

My vet has never mentioned diet as having a part to play in the soundness, nor has my farrier.
		
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It's a crying shame for horse owners but it's not their faults, they aren't being taught it in college in either profession. 

I think the connection between diet and ability to manage all surfaces and workloads without shoes on is one of the great revelations of the barefoot movement. It benefits so many shod horses to know this stuff too. 

Sarah Braithwaite of UKNHCP was the first person I was ever aware of who identified how critical the balances of some of the key minerals are in grazing and forage to building strong feet. At the same time, the changes recommended for barefoot horses also prevent laminitis attacks in many horses and even reduce the incidence of sweet itch (by at least one, mine!).  Other people report less mud fever too. It must mean that the whole horse is healthier as well as the feet.

One day the vets and farriers will have it included in  their training.


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## pinklilly (14 February 2013)

He was one tenth lame in off hind on a straight line, when he went into vets it was apparent he was mildly lame on all four legs on a circle and he was also diagnosed with PSD in all 4 legs.  He had a little tightness in the muscles in his back but not a great deal, no major issues, there's a little muscle wastage on the right hand side which I could see from behind.

He's never been 100% in front, which has fluctuated and the shoes were changed but I still wasn't happy with him so had them taken off and he's actually sound now,  Fingers crossed he stays sound!  I informed my vet after removing the fronts and he's actually agreed if the horse is sound then barefoot is the way forward.

The hinds will be lowered then removed as not to aggravate the PSD, admittedly they eased the caudal foot pain but are only temporary and the hoof appears to be growing in straighter, there's a definite start to the bulging about a third of the way down.


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## ester (14 February 2013)

Philamena if it's of interest Frank was approx 3/10 on his LF (the pictured foot), but I have also have pictures of his feet from 2 years previous with the same/similar profile in front. But I do think his heels had got much worse and had gone unnoticed and he was being shod more hunter style so not much heel support. He was nerve blocked to foot and later to the coffin joint on his left fore- but right fore looked the same in RL and on xray so not just to do with the angles- and diagnosed with DJD in the joint. 

In hindsight what I suspect was going on is that he is compromised in that joint and that the angles/lack of foot structure wasn't helping and he finally started to feel it (he is coming 20). Slow mo videos showed he was landing toe first and laterally in front, and much more laterally on his lame foot so I suspect there was some tendon/ligament strain going on a bit too which has resolved with time/foot changes.


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## philamena (14 February 2013)

Thanks Pinklilly and Ester - very interesting...! Have just taken my girl's shoes off ten days or so ago. She has slight bullnosing in the hinds and her heels have been getting lower in shoes, so am interested to see what changes come with the new regime!


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## JVB (15 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Sarah Braithwaite of UKNHCP was the first person I was ever aware of who identified how critical the balances of some of the key minerals are in grazing and forage to building strong feet. At the same time, the changes recommended for barefoot horses also prevent laminitis attacks in many horses and even reduce the incidence of sweet itch (by at least one, mine!).  Other people report less mud fever too. It must mean that the whole horse is healthier as well as the feet.
		
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My trimmer! Love her!


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