# what are your views on the chifney bit?



## pheobee (25 February 2011)

just got a chifney bit for my extremly naughty mare (loading!!!!!) and every since we have put her in it, she's been perfect!! i was so surprised!! what is every ones views on this bit? 
jo


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## spotty_pony (25 February 2011)

They are useful pieces of equipment, but are lethal if used incorrectly.


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## 3Beasties (25 February 2011)

ShowJumping Superstars said:



			They are useful pieces of equipment, but are lethal if used incorrectly.
		
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Ditto!


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## pheobee (25 February 2011)

oh i know! i only apply pressure if she tries to rear up, and she soon starts being good! she literally only wears her for about 10 mins


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## Nailed (25 February 2011)

the chifney anti rear bit .. the most sure fire way to make a horse rear if not used properly.

As said they can be useful. should be used sparingly by an experiencer handler as not to damage the horse. Can cause some nasty injuries.

I personally think there vile. I avoid like the plague. but have used one many moons ago on a horse that used to bolt at the drop of a hat.
Lou x


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## spotty_pony (25 February 2011)

I recently saw a horse wearing one on the hunting field!  I was speechless!


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## pheobee (25 February 2011)

WHAT?! while it was ridden!! i didn't think you could ride in them!!!!


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## intouch (25 February 2011)

There are kinder ways of working with a horse!


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## pheobee (25 February 2011)

i've tried everything! but different things work for different horses


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## Nailed (25 February 2011)

as far as im aware you cant ride in them.. and im not sure why you would want too!!! there is a bitless chifney which is basicallly a hackamore of a diffrent design..

Loux


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## pheobee (25 February 2011)

niether! there isn't anywhere to put the reins? thought it was leading only


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## spotty_pony (25 February 2011)

Nailed said:



			as far as im aware you cant ride in them.. and im not sure why you would want too!!! there is a bitless chifney which is basicallly a hackamore of a diffrent design..

Loux
		
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Could possibly be that sort of Chifney then, but the horse was also wearing a snaffle as well?!


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## intouch (25 February 2011)

I've a photo of my ex race horse being raced in one - can't think why as he is an angel to ride.


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## 3Beasties (25 February 2011)

There is a bit that looks like a chifney that can be ridden in, I think it's called a Dexter ring bit?!


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## spotty_pony (25 February 2011)

3Beasties said:



			There is a bit that looks like a chifney that can be ridden in, I think it's called a Dexter ring bit?!
		
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Just looked at a photo of one of those and I think it was one of those. Thank goodness it wasn't the more commonly known Chifney bit!


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## Walrus (25 February 2011)

Really useful. My pony has developed very bolshy attitude to coming in. Only to coming in mind you - not to being led in general, he's fine to turn out, show in hand and lead / handle in the school. Problem is that I only bring him in on a weekend - the rest of the time my YO brings him in. He tries to tank off and last weekend reared up when confronted. To make matters worse the track to the field is an ankle deep bog so the last thing you need is to be dragged over! He's been going out and coming in in the chifney every day since. I was home early yesterday and brought him in and he walked in like a lamb, such a good boy. Much easier and safer all round!


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## Megan.x (25 February 2011)

3Beasties said:



			Ditto!
		
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thiss!!


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## mini-eventer (25 February 2011)

Well our yards turn out is quite away from the yard down a quite lane. However one field away is a pretty major duel carriage way. We have a couple of horses that are known to rear and/or tank off. They behave beautifuly with a chifney on. I have never used a chifney on my own horses and would like to think I will never have to, teaching them manners a from a young age. However in the real world things arn't perfect and I would rather my horse be under control and safe with a chifney on than getting away from its handler and injuring its self or someone else.


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## yeeharider (25 February 2011)

would not be without mine have a bolshy 18.2 gelding who knows when he has it on and behaves but cannot be trusted without it just not safe for me or him. I know they can be lethal in the wrong hands know a chap who tied a horse in a lorry in one and broke its jaw when it paniced, but used correctly they are a useful piece of kit


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## nuttynugget (25 February 2011)

Would never use one!!!
If they are used by an inexperienced person and the horse rears can it not break their jaw??


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## yeeharider (25 February 2011)

I would be suprised if a person was physically strong enough to break a horses jaw even with a chifney. I can see it happening if a horse is tied up in one or if someone lets go of the horse and it stands on the leadrope pulling against its-self


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## alligator40 (25 February 2011)

nuttynugget said:



			Would never use one!!!
If they are used by an inexperienced person and the horse rears can it not break their jaw??
		
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LOL

PMSL......typical comment from someone who shouldnt reply..as they clearly know nothing.


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## TheresaW (25 February 2011)

I use one for loading Mac, and in the winter, for bringing him in at night as he is normally so keen to come in, that I can't hold him, even in a bridle.  He walks like a lamb in it, and I don't think it has ever actually come into force on him.

I am always reading that "horses can break their jaw" with them.  Does anyone actually know a horse that broke it's jaw in a chifney?


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## BSJAlove (25 February 2011)

alligator40 said:



			LOL

PMSL......typical comment from someone who shouldnt reply..as they clearly know nothing.
		
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and a typical comment from someone who thinks they are better then everyone else


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## Fairy Dust (25 February 2011)

I also use one for my mare when loading.....well used it once and haven't had to use it since, she now loads like an angel!! IMO they are perfectly safe and acceptable if used correctly and much better than risking half a tonne of horse rearing on top of you!!


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## Spring Feather (25 February 2011)

Chifneys get the job done.  I have one although I very rarely have to use it.  Racehorses often wear chifneys over the top of their bits.  They are for leading the racers and once jockey and horse are ready to go the handler detaches the lead from the chifney and the horse goes off and races in the chifney but it does not come in contact with the riders hands.


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## nuttynugget (25 February 2011)

alligator40 said:



			LOL

PMSL......typical comment from someone who shouldnt reply..as they clearly know nothing.
		
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Wow. How rude!!!!

I was merely asking a question from what I have heard!!! I wasn't saying that is what happens because as you can already tell I don't use one.


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## littlemisslauren (25 February 2011)

I use a Chifney frequently. We have a couple of horses that can be dangerous to turn out, I would rather use a Chifney than be injured. They all know when they have it on and walk like angels.

During the bad weather we had a lot of ice.... everywhere. The only safe way to get the more excitable horses across the yard was to use the chifney.


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## tigerlily12345 (26 February 2011)

so chifneys are the ones you lead with right? you dont ride in them (as the bit)? and what are these dexter ring bits? i was looking at a photo but cant work it out?


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## Spring Feather (26 February 2011)

tigerlily12345 said:



			so chifneys are the ones you lead with right? you dont ride in them (as the bit)? and what are these dexter ring bits? i was looking at a photo but cant work it out?
		
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A dexter ring bit is 2 bits.  The one which has the reins attached to and the other one which is a leading bit similar to a chifney.  The difference is that the dexter ring bits are attached to one another whereas when you use a chifney it is a bit in its own right and not attached to the riding bit.


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## sun-shine (26 February 2011)

I think they're necessary for some horses, and as long as you're aware of what they can do and take necessary precautions, then its fine. Luckily I've never had to handle anything that needed one. Though I did use a german hackamore on a horse I had and got a lot of stick for it.


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## thumpbug (26 February 2011)

My tb is led in and out in one,it saves someone getting injured and her running down the road so i'm a fan! So long as there used correctly that is.


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## AndySpooner (26 February 2011)

Wow, all these 'dangerous' horses. Sounds like some training all round would be a better solution than yet another harsh piece of tack.


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## Jade&Syrah (26 February 2011)

I agree with them if used correctly and in the right situations. At work we use them on most the stallions and any mares that may cause injury for them being strong/dangerous. As i work on a commercial stud yard i think it's necessary to help the safety of the handler, especially during the stud season.


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## annaellie (26 February 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Wow, all these 'dangerous' horses. Sounds like some training all round would be a better solution than yet another harsh piece of tack.
		
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How rude !!!
My old 17.2 boy came to me as a rearer who boxed down on you. It was nothing to do with how I handled him he was bought with them behaviours already installed.  I tried all sorts but he was plain dangerous to lead so a chifney was my godsend. It stopped him from rearing and saved him from being pts as if he would of continued he wod of hurt or killed someone. We used the chimney for 6 months every time he was lead near a feild or to and from, after that we never needed it again for him.


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## Walrus (26 February 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Wow, all these 'dangerous' horses. Sounds like some training all round would be a better solution than yet another harsh piece of tack.
		
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What a lovely ideal world you live in. Using a chifney on my pony means my YO and her staff can bring him in safely and quickly so it doesn't disrupt their busy day - they are paid to bring pony in, not to school him for me. I work full time, by the time I get home from work it's dark. MY pony only plays about coming in, not going out. In the school he will do in-hand work, back between poles, walk over tarpaulin, let me put the tarpaulin on his head etc. etc. Ideally I would do some in-hand work on the way in from the field: stop, start, back up, stand still etc. but since it's pitch blck, no lighting when I get back from work added to about 8 inches of boggy mud I don't fancy that as an option. Pony moved fields last weekend to one further away which is when he started playing up, this week YO and staff have brought him in in the chifney - he has come in like a lamb. Not entirely sure what the problem is with using it to get the desired, safe, response fro everyone concerned.


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## JVB (26 February 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Wow, all these 'dangerous' horses. Sounds like some training all round would be a better solution than yet another harsh piece of tack.
		
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Well, what would you suggest in this example then. My mare is very sweet and lovely to handle but hates the vet, do I let my poor vet get crushed and possible really hurt while my mare creates havoc in the stable or do I put a chiffney on her so she stands quietly for injections and neither are at the risk of being hurt?

Why is there always someone who thinks they know better...


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## emmaln (26 February 2011)

Sorry but I'm not a fan! Each to their own and everything but I feel that a chiffney works using pain: a horse reacts and the chiffney digs into the tongue and bars of the mouth I feel that you are conditioning a horse to think metal in the mouth = pain!

I do understand however that we all inherit different problems and behaviours that need to be safely managed, I use a be nice halter which I actually call my miracle headcollar! The reason it works so well is that it releases as soon as the horse relaxes and isn't pressure release the way we aim to train our horses in all aspects or their education?

As I said though each to their own!


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## milesjess (26 February 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Wow, all these 'dangerous' horses. Sounds like some training all round would be a better solution than yet another harsh piece of tack.
		
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I'm sorry but what a ridiculous comment! I have to lead my horse across a road to get to his field, not to mention he gets strong and on his toes when being led back. He's in a new home so it's all obviously different to him. I would rather use a chiffney to keep control and ensure his/ mine/ passerbys/ drivers safety then not use it! 

Oh and you don't have to have a 'dangerous' horse to use a chiffney 

Atleast owners are taking responsibility by using one!


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## traceyann (26 February 2011)

Iv never used one but would if needed to rather be alive than dead i agree in ideal world we never should but we all know that doesnt happen.


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## Cadfael&Coffee (26 February 2011)

Personally I despise them, BUT if I was ever in the situation that I needed one, I would use it.

As has been said, means to an end. I would never dream of using one on my current horse, but I might on another


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## Ladyinred (26 February 2011)

Posting this knowing I am about to get jumped on.

A chifney is for people who have never been taught how to work with horses. No horse in the world NEEDS a chifney if it has had a decent upbringing and is in the hands of an experienced person. They are vicious pieces of equipment, and yes, the other poster was perfectly correct, they can and do break a horses jaw. My OH has seen it, though luckily I haven't. If you 'need' a chifney then you would probably be better off at a riding school once a week, or riding a pushbike that can't be harmed by your actions.

And, before anyone accuses me of living in an ideal world, I worked for many years with all sorts of horses, from show hunters through to TB and other stallions and breaking and schooling as well as SJ and eventing. So I do know what I am talking about.


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## georgie256 (26 February 2011)

I use it to turn out my crazy mare B. Very useful as she listens to me instead of trying to go mental before the gate.


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## vikkiandmonica (26 February 2011)

I've never used one on any of my own horses, but when I was working for an eventer, she had a stallion that was a right handful, pop in the chifney and he would turn into a calmer, more controllable horse. If he got het up, you literally had to shake the bit gently in his mouth and he would stay by your side, admittedly bouncing to go into the field, but wouldn't try and drag you to other horses etc. One of the other grooms told me that when he came, they put him in a headcollar and he was uncontrollable, would just pull until he was loose.


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## cptrayes (26 February 2011)

There is nothing whatsoever that would make a chifney break a horse's jaw any more than any other bit in the wrong hands. In fact being such thin wire, with no joint, I think it would probably be more difficult with a chifney

Very useful as a loading tool for horses that rear away from the ramp. I have one who every now and then will ignore his training and decide that today, for the first time in three months, he has separation anxiety. In a headcollar he will pick me up and take me where he wants to go. In a chifney he does not even try and I don't even touch his mouth - where's the harm?


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## Quadro (26 February 2011)

Ladyinred said:



			Posting this knowing I am about to get jumped on.

A chifney is for people who have never been taught how to work with horses. No horse in the world NEEDS a chifney if it has had a decent upbringing and is in the hands of an experienced person. They are vicious pieces of equipment, and yes, the other poster was perfectly correct, they can and do break a horses jaw. My OH has seen it, though luckily I haven't. If you 'need' a chifney then you would probably be better off at a riding school once a week, or riding a pushbike that can't be harmed by your actions.

And, before anyone accuses me of living in an ideal world, I worked for many years with all sorts of horses, from show hunters through to TB and other stallions and breaking and schooling as well as SJ and eventing. So I do know what I am talking about.
		
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Clearly you don't, what a load of rubbish!!! 
Alot of owners don't own their horses from day 1 so your point about "upbringing" is void. A high percentage of owners buy thier horses when they are broken and they often come with bad and good habits. If a horse needs a chifney to be turned out to prevent it getting away etc then do you not think that is much safer that the horse being hit by a car (which of course you may be held responsible for)??
If you think that a chifney can only cause harm then i would query the way you handle horses and use equipment.
Perhaps the people who go to the riding school every week already know this and you might get something out of joining them.
Q


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## ChesnutsRoasting (26 February 2011)

When I first got my mare, she was an absolute nightmare to lead. Rearing, spinning around, generally being a t*t and other horse friends advised a Chifney. I really didn't want to go up that route as she had a sensitive mouth (she is now ridden bitless) and decided on trying the Dually instead inconjunction with daily ground work lessons. She came good in the end. A pushy/bolshy/bargy horse is a potential danger to the handler & others around & I can understand why people would reach for the Chifney, but there are alternatives if one is willing to pursue them.


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## superpony (26 February 2011)

Ladyinred said:



			Posting this knowing I am about to get jumped on.

A chifney is for people who have never been taught how to work with horses. No horse in the world NEEDS a chifney if it has had a decent upbringing and is in the hands of an experienced person. They are vicious pieces of equipment, and yes, the other poster was perfectly correct, they can and do break a horses jaw. My OH has seen it, though luckily I haven't.  If you 'need' a chifney then you would probably be better off at a riding school once a week, or riding a pushbike that can't be harmed by your actions. 

And, before anyone accuses me of living in an ideal world, I worked for many years with all sorts of horses, from show hunters through to TB and other stallions and breaking and schooling as well as SJ and eventing. So I do know what I am talking about.
		
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So how come racehorses have to be led round with them on at the racecourse by very experienced people?

I don't use one myself, but if i had a horse which  required one i would rather use one than risk an accident occuring because a horse escaped by running off inhand.


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## misst (26 February 2011)

My daughters old TB was a big bolshy boy who would get excited and rear being turned out. An experienced person suggest a chifney and we were horrified - held out agaisnt it for ages.  One day after box rest he was really scarey and she popped the chifney in - he never looked back after that. He was turned out in it daily for months and brought in in a head collar as normal. Eventually he only needed the chifney if he had been boxrested, it was very windy or if I was leading him (I am very short and he could barge me with his shoulder and knew it). He was not a badly trained horse, he was loving and affectionate and he was like that when we bought him from a well known eventer when he was 4. He was just a big bargy excitable TB who was intelligent enough to know how to get the better of people. The man we bought him off loaded and turned him out in a bridle so it was not just us who had a problem. Interestingly he always loaded like an angel in a headcollar for us - it was just walking to the field that was a problem.


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## RunToEarth (26 February 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Wow, all these 'dangerous' horses. Sounds like some training all round would be a better solution than yet another harsh piece of tack.
		
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Another parelli dually fluffy bunny by any chance? 
I use chifneys, gags, spurs, draw reins, standing martingales and two reins on horses. I must be one of the most evil people going- but my horses are all happy...


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## annaellie (26 February 2011)

Ladyinred said:



			Posting this knowing I am about to get jumped on.

A chifney is for people who have never been taught how to work with horses. No horse in the world NEEDS a chifney if it has had a decent upbringing and is in the hands of an experienced person. They are vicious pieces of equipment, and yes, the other poster was perfectly correct, they can and do break a horses jaw. My OH has seen it, though luckily I haven't. If you 'need' a chifney then you would probably be better off at a riding school once a week, or riding a pushbike that can't be harmed by your actions.

And, before anyone accuses me of living in an ideal world, I worked for many years with all sorts of horses, from show hunters through to TB and other stallions and breaking and schooling as well as SJ and eventing. So I do know what I am talking about.
		
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Lol that gave me the biggest giggle as I said in my other post my horse was 17.2 who reared and boxed down on the handler he was SOLD TO ME like that if it was not for a few months in a chiffney I would have had to pts as he was going to hurt or kill someone. 
Oh and a top Eventer advised that he would only handle him in a chifney and I was a idiot and that's the polite way of phrasing how he said it if I did not invest in one for him. I did and saved him being pts and could then be led in a headcoller 6 months later as safe as anything.


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## scribble (26 February 2011)

we have a big perchoin (sp) horse on our yard who if is difficult to handle and just loosses the plot.  As we hve children on the yard and other horses/people it is led in a chifney.  Safer for all and her.  I have led my mare in a chifney with a headcollar.  i think it is the safe and responsible thing to do if the horse is arsing up.  Nothing to do with dangerous horses- my mare is as sweet as pie normally but as with all horses can get excited if she wants to.


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## milesjess (26 February 2011)

I think some people need to bear in mind that horses are strong, powerful animals (even the little ponies!). They all have different quirks and if a chiffney is needed to help control and prevent any accidents/ injuries then so be it. Not every horse can be 'trained' out of their quirks and I'd rather see an owner take responsibilty and use a chiffney then watch them being dragged all over the place and have no control over the horse... So long as they are used by an experienced handler then there is nothing wrong with them IMO.


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## pastie2 (26 February 2011)

Ladyinred said:



			Posting this knowing I am about to get jumped on.

A chifney is for people who have never been taught how to work with horses. No horse in the world NEEDS a chifney if it has had a decent upbringing and is in the hands of an experienced person. They are vicious pieces of equipment, and yes, the other poster was perfectly correct, they can and do break a horses jaw. My OH has seen it, though luckily I haven't. If you 'need' a chifney then you would probably be better off at a riding school once a week, or riding a pushbike that can't be harmed by your actions.

And, before anyone accuses me of living in an ideal world, I worked for many years with all sorts of horses, from show hunters through to TB and other stallions and breaking and schooling as well as SJ and eventing. So I do know what I am talking about.
		
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Sadly Ladyinred, you dont have a bl00dy clue about what you are talking about. You should lead a TB stallion out to cover a mare in anything other than a chifney and see how dangerous that can be for the mare and the handler. Use a chifney once on a horse and they rarely misbehave again. Most people that use this bit do know what they are doing, go and see top studs at Newmarket, I am sure they dont think that they need to go to a riding school! What a rediculous comment. A horses jaw is not made of fine china, it would take a crow bar to break it. The fact that you had to give us your full CV speaks volumes.


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## smiffyimp (26 February 2011)

after clipping my boy whilst being a tit, I think they are GREAT


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## Jennyharvey (26 February 2011)

blazingsaddles said:



			When I first got my mare, she was an absolute nightmare to lead. Rearing, spinning around, generally being a t*t and other horse friends advised a Chifney. I really didn't want to go up that route as she had a sensitive mouth (she is now ridden bitless) and decided on trying the Dually instead inconjunction with daily ground work lessons. She came good in the end. A pushy/bolshy/bargy horse is a potential danger to the handler & others around & I can understand why people would reach for the Chifney, but there are alternatives if one is willing to pursue them.

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Ditto this.  I understand that a lot of horses are harder to handle than others, and may require a bridle or chifney.  But like this poster said, there are alternatives as well.  One being training.  
I once had the prevelage(sarcasm) of taking two connie stallions for two weeks training before their grading.  Previously had very little handling.  
At the grading, i was able to control them well in the halters they were trained in.  Which i didnt think was bad for 2 weeks work lol.  Plus they were the only two there not being controlled in a bit.  Now im not an amazing horsewoman, so i reckon if someone like me can handle these two in halters surrounded by other stallions, then im pretty sure that others can as well, if the training is put in.  
Im not dishing chifneys, but i still reckon if the work was put in to overcome these issues, they hopefully wouldnt be needed.  

But thats just my opinion.  

Hehe how did i think this would start into a dabate on bits lol.


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## yeeharider (26 February 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Wow, all these 'dangerous' horses. Sounds like some training all round would be a better solution than yet another harsh piece of tack.
		
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would not class my horse as dangerous just high spirited coming in from field especially if its windy or getting dark so for his safety,mine and he others on the yard he is turned out brought in with chifney on .On the yard he wears a headcollar when needed, he is a pleasure to do clip etc without headcollar. so dangerous definately not


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## wellsat (26 February 2011)

Ladyinred said:



			Posting this knowing I am about to get jumped on.

A chifney is for people who have never been taught how to work with horses. No horse in the world NEEDS a chifney if it has had a decent upbringing and is in the hands of an experienced person. They are vicious pieces of equipment, and yes, the other poster was perfectly correct, they can and do break a horses jaw. My OH has seen it, though luckily I haven't. If you 'need' a chifney then you would probably be better off at a riding school once a week, or riding a pushbike that can't be harmed by your actions.
		
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What a nasty unpleasant comment. As has been said, most of us don't have our horses from birth so buy them with quirks that have been allowed to develop by previous poor handling. 

My horse has impeccable ground manners on an everyday basis but will rear if he sees a trailer. Now we use a chifney he loads as quietly as a lamb and travels so quietly you'd think he wasn't in there so he clearly isn't distressed. Much kinder and safer than the alternative.


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## stroppy (26 February 2011)

There may be kinder ways, but when you have 2 tonne of stupid animal on the end of a piece of rope, then i'm all for doing whatever it takes to stay safe, my life is far more important than a horse being able to drag me or leap and rear at me because its kinder, in my eyes every yard should have one or two in a place that is easy to find it when the situation arises where its needed.


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## stroppy (26 February 2011)

AndySpooner and LadyinRed take your unhelpful and clearly bigoted views elsewhere!


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## amandap (26 February 2011)

Sounds like a good device for naughty children to me.  Don't teach them to behave well, just force em with a bit of pain if they do wrong. Quick, easy and takes no brain power or effort. Ideal solution for humans in this busy modern world.


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## milesjess (26 February 2011)

amandap said:



			Sounds like a good device for naughty children to me.  Don't teach them to behave well, just force em with a bit of pain if they do wrong. Quick, easy and takes no brain power or effort. Ideal solution for humans in this busy modern world.
		
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Sounds to me like you need educating on a chiffney bit before you give an opinion...


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## equinim (26 February 2011)

chifneys can be ridden in as the racehorses sometimes have them on with their other bit and they are ridden with both bits in.

they are best used with a leadrein on the chifney and a leadrein on the headcoller so u only need to use it when required.
can b disaterous in  wrong novice hands


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## Walrus (26 February 2011)

amandap said:



			Sounds like a good device for naughty children to me.  Don't teach them to behave well, just force em with a bit of pain if they do wrong. Quick, easy and takes no brain power or effort. Ideal solution for humans in this busy modern world.
		
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Isn't it more just an extension on the idea of pressure and release? Yes it's a sharp pressure but in the right hands surely the idea is to release when the horse behaves not to continually apply pressure for the heck of it. My horse has just been brought in from the field in a chifney - he walked calmly next to me and at no point did I apply any pressure, I don't believe he was in pain from just having it in. Now rewind a week and I brought him in in a headcollar with the rope round his nose - I was practically swinging from his nose and waterskiing alongside him through a muddy bog. Pulled him up and told him to behave and he reared up. The whole expereince wasn't exactly pleasant for me or him. He's been brought in in the chifney all week by experienced handlers who informed me that by day 2 he was walking in quietly. Yes it is a quick solution in today's busy society but that's the truth - I work all week, I'm on DIY - my YO brings the pony in daily. I need to make the process as quick and easy for everyone concerned. And yes that does mean that at times the pony is "forced" to behave but I'd rather that have a drawn out process in a bog every day for a week at the moment. I would class other gadgets e.g. draw reins more in the way that you described the chifney although am still open minded enough to appreciate that they may have a use in very experienced hands.


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## amandap (26 February 2011)

This is I think one of the reasons pressure and release is considered bad by some.Pressure dosn't have to be painful or severe to be effective. I would argue that introducing pain and severe discomfort makes the horse resist and brace and certainly not enjoy what he is doing at that time.

I try and imagine a bit of metal sticking into my mouth and even if used by an expert, horses are strong and if they pull as well the pressure can surely be excruciating? 

Release is the part that is left out of the pressure and release (negative reinforcement) way of asking a horse. The release needs to be as soon as the horse makes the smallest 'try'/ effort to do what is asked, those small trys are often missed so the pressure is built and built and the horse doesn't understand why because his little 'trys' have resulted in more pressure (meaning no) rather than a release. (to say yes). Then us humans also carry on with the pressure or repeat the pressure when the horse has complied. A prime example here is constantly nudging legs once the horse is moving. Draw reins are often used (ime) to pull a horse into a desired shape or give the rider extra leverage (strength) on the bit to 'control' the horse by force.
I don't believe horses don't feel pain in their mouths or have less senstive mouths than us, in fact I guess their mouths are more sensitive than ours until they learn to push through and against the pain and need stronger bits.  
Just my opinion and I know many more knowledgable peeps don't agree, in this case knowledge doesn't mean empathy (ability to imagine others feelings) imo.

There may be a place for chifney use in extreme situations where immediate 'control' is needed but I personally wouldn't use one because the potential for inflicting pain is high imo.  I don't believe they should be used as a long term solution but can understand why they are used when different livery's have to lead horses etc.


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## scarymare (26 February 2011)

They are an essential tool for me and very effective if used by the right hands.  Recent uses for mine are for bargey cob whom I can't hold in bridle for loading (cob people will understand this) and for TB who used to P*** off when I got her into field.  Used twice on her and excellent since.


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## Cuppatea (26 February 2011)

For those who don know what a dexter is, this is a chffney:






this is a dexter:





and it looks like this whan used on a horse:





and this one is neither (straight bar, fixed, non moveable ring only under the chin not through the mouth) but still has a ring underneath so could still be confused for a chiffney:






I have never heard of horses racing with a chiffney on, in my experience horses that are led up with a chiffney on a seperate 'bridle' have the whole lot taken off before it leaves the paddock. im not saying it has never happened but It could well be mistaken for one of the above bits.


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## somethingorother (26 February 2011)

Me thinks some of you doth protest too much. Everyone has their different ways of doing things. But this is a debate on chifneys and there are two sides to that. Although apparently only those who use chifneys are entitled to an opinion on the matter? 

I have never had to use one and i hope i never do. I can see that they may be useful for a one off dangerous situation but i do not think they should be used daily. The general consensus here seems to be chifney versus no control and inevitable injury. I think you are forgetting all the many other ways of training a horse. Most horses have times when they get wound up and excited but if they are trained correctly they will control this to some degree and not just go tanking off or rearing. And no, it's not an ideal world and we do get horses which other people have not trained correctly, but that doesn't mean some time and effort and training can't resolve an ingrained problem. I wonder how many of you have tried, compared to how many of you have just 'stuck a chifney on'. It's not a vital tool. It's a very harsh device and comands respect from fear of pain. If a horse can remember to not rear/ tank etc when excited because of a thin piece of metal in it's mouth, then with training it can also learn not to tank/rear etc because of a headcollar and leadrope. Only not through fear. 

Don't like to train my horses through fear, i want them to trust and respect me. And i regularly handle youngsters and colts in just a headcollar. And they're not little lambs, they have just had some groundwork done with them to establish some rules.


Jump on me if you wish.


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## nikkimariet (26 February 2011)

I love how any post that is slightly controversial gets jumped on by 3 sets of people: those who agree, those who disagree, and those who make comments so silly it literally makes me roll my eyes.

Like with a lot of bits/tack....in the wrong hand a chifney could be a very bad idea. But I would think (and would like to think!) that somebody proposing to use one would have a very good idea of what they are hoping to achieve by using one....

We used to have a great big hulking 16.2hh wb mare/Duchess, who whilst well mannered in the stable and under saddle, was bolshy and would walk all over you on the yard....so we used a chifney. 

IMO it's very much a placebo affect, as soon as we put it on her, she was foot perfect and polite! There were very very very few occasions where we actually had to use it with direct force....


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## Allover (26 February 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			Like with a lot of bits/tack....in the wrong hand a chifney could be a very bad idea. But I would think (and would like to think!) that somebody proposing to use one would have a very good idea of what they are hoping to achieve by using one....
		
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No necessarily (sp!!) often people have an over inflated sense of their abilities and think they are perfectly capable of using spurs, draw reins, sharp bit etc when it is quite obvious they do not  

BTW your horse is gorgeous.


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## Chloe..x (26 February 2011)

There a useful tool to have when used correctly. If one falls into the wrong hands then oh dear...


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## Superstar (26 February 2011)

I handle a lot of strong welsh cobs and welsh cob stallions on the yard - we use them when needed - I only weight 9 stone and compared with a pumped up 15h 600kg pure muscle built like a brick stallion there would be nothing I could do should a 'situation' arise.  Everyone has different views but mine has always been paramount saftey for both horse, handler and other liveries......All carnage would break loose if I lost a cob stallion due to wanting to adopt a softy softy approach....they have their time and place and must be used correctly. often the boys will just dogtrot and bounce next to me in one as they know, but should I have them in a head collar they would be off and i would never hold them.

I challange anyone to try and hold onto a pumped Welsh cob stallion in just a head collar when he is having a moment...!!

It depends what is happening sometimes there are as good as gold and dont need need at all, but they are a handy bit of saftey kit when you do need them.


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## mcnaughty (26 February 2011)

RunToEarth said:



			Another parelli dually fluffy bunny by any chance? 
I use chifneys, gags, spurs, draw reins, standing martingales and two reins on horses. I must be one of the most evil people going- but my horses are all happy...
		
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Ah, I was waiting for that - the fluffy bunny card - what utter c++p.  If someone wants to do pirelli and use a dually what on earth is wrong with that and what has it got to do with you!  It is those that press their beliefs on others by name calling that is BS.  The chifney is used mainly by the racing fraternity to enable very experienced tiny men and women to control very hot headed thoroughbreds.  It works end of.


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## only_me (26 February 2011)

This thread made me LOL

So, anyone who uses a chifney is stupid, unable to train and look after their horse properly. And has been suggested that they return to the riding school.

Might I suggest those that think the above statement also head back to their nearest riding school (preferably one that does not put emphasis on parelli) and ask the instructors how to use a chifney?

A chifney is like any other piece of kit; in the wrong hands can do a lot of damage but in the right hands can be a valuable piece of kit.


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## cptrayes (26 February 2011)

somethingorother said:



			Most horses have times when they get wound up and excited but if they are trained correctly they will control this to some degree and not just go tanking off or rearing.
		
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Would you like to meet mine? Perfectly well trained, thankyou. An absolute angel to lead and load in a headcollar for months at a time. Then suddenly one day he will decide that he will not leave his friends. 650 kilos of horse picks me up and carries me to wherever he wants to go. It's me on the lead rope, not him. He isn't diverted by food. He doesn't respond to pressure. He isn't untrained. But his brain, which is overbred and VERY highly strung, simply switches off and the signals are not reaching him.  He looks like someone on drugs when he is in this state - he is zoned out. This is a horse who, when he has decided that he has done enough work, will stand on his hind feet and attempt to box his way through a concrete wall. And whose brother, who I have never even seen, will do similar things, strongly suggesting that this behaviour is genetic, not a failure in  training. The father was also temperamental and quirky, jumping Grand Prix SJ one day and refusing to play on another day.

I'm baffled why anyone would think it is wrong with this horse to put a chifney in his mouth, whereupon he retunes to his handler as if someone has waved a magic wand. Not only is he easier to handle by an order of magnitude, so that actually using the bit is not necessary at all, but it is also clear from his expression that he is an immensely happier horse! Someone else has taken responsibility, and he likes it. 

Shock horror I also trained my new four year old to load in it too. He threatened once to rear on the ramp, so I put a chifney on him immediately. He tried once to pull on it, and gave that up as a bad idea. From that point on, he has been an angel to load. Now, I could have taken a month with a pressure headcollar, or clicker training, or Parelli, or some other mumbo jumbo, but can anyone tell me what on earth the point would have been? Solved in one day, happy horse, happy owner. What's the big deal??


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## pansy (26 February 2011)

Hi our gelding is in a chifney to come up from the field and go back - he has a lovely personality but can be really bolshy to lead - yes we have done groundwork with him and he can be good but when he wants to go he will either dragging whos with him behind them or just cantering up to his stable either way i can't bring him in & out every day due to work commitments so I want everyone to be safe -in a chifney he is a pleasure to lead - people have to be safe it would be nice to think that he can come out of it in the future but time will tell I'm not over keen on them but at the moment it's doing the job and with the mud & everything else at the moment it's the safest way to lead him xx


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## somethingorother (26 February 2011)

The fact that he listens when there is a chifney on him suggests he is not as far gone as you at first described. It sounds as if he is just ignoring you. He can't be 'perfectly' trained if he tanks off and drags you can he? 

And as for happy horse, i doubt he was happy when that thin peice of metal dug into his highly sensitive tongue and mouth...

(you all sound as if you are fighting for your life here. Calm down a bit, if there's nothing wrong with a chifney then there's no need to fight so hard to justify it is there?)


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## only_me (26 February 2011)

lol, just thought of one example for the chifney haters who believe horses are untrained.

We have a 16.2 at the yard, who has the great manners. Dosent walk over you, barge through the door etc. Best mannered. However, if he has not been ridden before being turned out he requires a chifney to control him.


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## Javabb94 (26 February 2011)

To be honest people should be allowed to use them when needed and should not be crictised for it.

I use one to load, i dont have to pull on it but the fact java knows its there, he goes in first time when the chifney is not on him he doesnt load, he just stands there!

So in the right hands they are fine and we have been taught to use it correctly by the instructor, we didnt just go out and buy one as we know how dangerous they can be when used incorrectly.

I know people who used them for walking very strong horses in from the field and now they dont have to use it as horse knows now to behave


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## nikkimariet (26 February 2011)

Allover said:



			No necessarily (sp!!) often people have an over inflated sense of their abilities and think they are perfectly capable of using spurs, draw reins, sharp bit etc when it is quite obvious they do not  

BTW your horse is gorgeous.
		
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Haha I shall tell Bruce he has another admirer!!

Yeah I get what you're saying; makes me cringe and mentally think 'God what ARE you doing using that!'....poor ponies, but what can you do?!

xoxo


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## ChloeC418 (26 February 2011)

When I was younger I had a 14.1hh pony, to ride he was fine, not strong, snaffle mouthed. To handle however, he was really strong (this was with my mum holding him, who is pretty strong & she couldn't hold him)  he'd push his shoulder into you and tank off in the other direction, even with a bridle on. One show morning he did this so we had to chase a plaited pony, in travelling boots and show rug around a field. With a chifney on, he'd walk over to the lorry as good as gold. 

Like any bit, it's very useful, but potentially harmful if used incorrectly.


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## cptrayes (26 February 2011)

somethingorother said:



			The fact that he listens when there is a chifney on him suggests he is not as far gone as you at first described. It sounds as if he is just ignoring you. He can't be 'perfectly' trained if he tanks off and drags you can he?
		
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You think I'm lying? Come and meet him, he's one in a million 



somethingorother said:



			And as for happy horse, i doubt he was happy when that thin peice of metal dug into his highly sensitive tongue and mouth...
		
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But it doesn't. With it on, the rope is slack and he follows me like a big wet puppy dog. All my friends have suggested having him put down. I prefer to use a chifney, bit less drastic, don't you think  ?



somethingorother said:



			(you all sound as if you are fighting for your life here. Calm down a bit, if there's nothing wrong with a chifney then there's no need to fight so hard to justify it is there?)
		
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Well, we have been accused so far of not knowing how to train horses, and of being cruel to our horses (you yourself accused me of digging the chifney into my horse's tongue.) I'm enjoying the robust discussion thanks, I don't feel any need to calm down, it's taking my mind off far more serious things going on in my life right now


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## AndySpooner (26 February 2011)

stroppy said:



			There may be kinder ways, but when you have 2 tonne of stupid animal on the end of a piece of rope, then i'm all for doing whatever it takes to stay safe, my life is far more important than a horse being able to drag me or leap and rear at me because its kinder, in my eyes every yard should have one or two in a place that is easy to find it when the situation arises where its needed.
		
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I really do think this comment sums up a lot of the mind set on here and why there are such differing views. 

All these big problems folk have with their horse, were little problems which, not being properly addressed became big problems.

When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them.
~Tom Dorrance


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## Shysmum (26 February 2011)

my view on a chifney - a great tool _in the right hands, at the right time _

if you don't know what it's for and how to use it properly, don't bother. Seen this happen once, not good. 

Hope that helps


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## Cadfael&Coffee (26 February 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them.
~Tom Dorrance
		
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Off topic, I really like that- I find it usually true!!!


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## AndySpooner (26 February 2011)

Cadfael&Coffee said:



			Off topic, I really like that- I find it usually true!!!
		
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Just despairing of Stroppy really, who not only has a horse half a ton heavier than the largest ever recorded, but an over developed sense of self preservation.


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## Allover (26 February 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Just despairing of Stroppy really, who not only has a horse half a ton heavier than the largest ever recorded, but an over developed sense of self preservation.
		
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That made me snort!!!!


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## Zabby (26 February 2011)

At my school we used that bit.

We had a nervous mare. At first she was lead with a halter/headcollar like all other horses. She took off every day. So she was lead with a chain. The first two days she was 'controlled'', the she started taking off. Now she got lead with a chain attatched to a lunge-line. Helped for another few days. Then she was lead with this bitting device. Lasted a week.

Four weeks after she was bought, she was sold again, still constantly rearing, kicking bucking and taking off. Difficult to fetch in the pasture and getting issues with fetching in the stall too. Too dangerous for the school (not a regular riding school but a highschool with horses as the main theme).

Let me tell you another thing. When they couldn't fetch her the  last weeks, if it was my day at the barn, they called for me. It took me about 10 minutes to get her. I lead her with a headcollar, back to her stall. No misbehaviour whatsoever.
Because I had beaten her? I was big and dangerous? (lol!) I have some extraordinary magic powers? No. I just listened to her. When she ran away in the pasture I didn't chase her, just followed quietl, when she turned I rewarded her. When I lead her and she would start to tense up, I'd stroke her forehead or neck a bit and then walk on calmly expecting her to follow. I'm 160cm high, she's 180 at the withers.

If you need tools like this to controle the horse, you have no controle.

I can and will use a ropehalter and a long leadrope if I come to a ''bad'' horse. I will use a whip to point with and I willhit the horse if it attacks me, not otherwise. I'd never yank it in the mouth, it would definetly not make the day better.


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## alligator40 (26 February 2011)

RunToEarth said:



			Another parelli dually fluffy bunny by any chance? 
I use chifneys, gags, spurs, draw reins, standing martingales and two reins on horses. I must be one of the most evil people going- but my horses are all happy...
		
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Sadly, you are in the minority.
Far too many Fluffies around these days.


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## pastie2 (26 February 2011)

alligator40 said:



			Sadly, you are in the minority.
Far too many Fluffies around these days.
		
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Yup, all these dreadful gadgets were designed for the CRUEL! Fluffies know best!!


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## loopylucifer (26 February 2011)

IMO yes they do have there place but are far to offten used by inexperianced people that think they are experianced. and in most cases had the horses been correctly trained or re train in leading then there would be no need for them. personaly i would want them all melted down and people actually taught thier horses to lead. they break jaws if they tread on the end of the rope, the bits acts like a cheese wire.


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## Queenbee (26 February 2011)

nuttynugget said:



			Would never use one!!!
If they are used by an inexperienced person and the horse rears can it not break their jaw??
		
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well then one must assume that you are either:

a: an inexperienced person ... or 

b: Have never had to deal with a serious little SOB

I never thought I would use one, but then I got my youngster, the best foal I could have wished for to handle until his balls dropped then a rearing, cow kicking monster!  First time in 20 yrs I have ever used a chiffney and very well worth it, stopped rearing straight away. 

In understanding hands with the right t*at of a horse they can be an absolute godsend!   Just knowing I can win is enough for my angel to behave like one!


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## somethingorother (26 February 2011)

cptrayes said:



			You think I'm lying? Come and meet him, he's one in a million 



But it doesn't. With it on, the rope is slack and he follows me like a big wet puppy dog. All my friends have suggested having him put down. I prefer to use a chifney, bit less drastic, don't you think  ?



Well, we have been accused so far of not knowing how to train horses, and of being cruel to our horses (you yourself accused me of digging the chifney into my horse's tongue.) I'm enjoying the robust discussion thanks, I don't feel any need to calm down, it's taking my mind off far more serious things going on in my life right now 

Click to expand...


I'm not saying you are lying. But if a horse rears/ tanks with no regard to it's handler then in my opinion it obviously needs further work doing with it. I wouldn't call that a 'perfectly trained' horse. 

Also i did not accuse you of digging the chifney into his tongue. That's how the chifney works. You yourself said he pulled back on it and then 'decided that was a bad idea'.... yes, because it hurt him. if we used an electric cattle prod to load a horse the first time, and then they loaded fine after that, is that ok??


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## AndySpooner (27 February 2011)

pastie2 said:



			Yup, all these dreadful gadgets were designed for the CRUEL! Fluffies know best!!
		
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Maybe not cruel, I don't think there are that many deliberately cruel who keep horses, but gadgets, as you describe are all designed to exert control. By constantly using gadgets to confine and control instead of getting through to the horse by  training and addressing the small problems early instead of letting them become big problems there is no improvement for either the horse or handler, and all you do is cope.


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## Laafet (27 February 2011)

OMG - right I am pro Chifney, in its place. I have just got in from foaling a maiden mare, between myself and my boss we have 50+ years experience and are constantly learning and taking on new ideas. The maiden had a tough foaling and although interested in her foal she did not want him to drink. We started off just holding her, applying a skin pinch etc, but she was not having it, trying to kick foal every time he went to suck. Then we got a bridle, still no good, just barged us. So we, horror of horrors, got the chifney out. Note we did give her a chance. Even in the chifney she was still not great, in the end as her colt was getting very tired and still had not drank she was doped, twitched up and had a chifney on. Foal got a decent drink. Now we could have bottle fed the foal but then the mare is not getting over her issues. I have no idea how you get a mare used to having a foal bashing her about, she was quite happy with us stripping her and there are no antenatal classes for young mares! Would you anti chifney guys just stood back and let the foal struggle and get weak?


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## AndySpooner (27 February 2011)

Laafet said:



			OMG - right I am pro Chifney, in its place. I have just got in from foaling a maiden mare, between myself and my boss we have 50+ years experience and are constantly learning and taking on new ideas. The maiden had a tough foaling and although interested in her foal she did not want him to drink. We started off just holding her, applying a skin pinch etc, but she was not having it, trying to kick foal every time he went to suck. Then we got a bridle, still no good, just barged us. So we, horror of horrors, got the chifney out. Note we did give her a chance. Even in the chifney she was still not great, in the end as her colt was getting very tired and still had not drank she was doped, twitched up and had a chifney on. Foal got a decent drink. Now we could have bottle fed the foal but then the mare is not getting over her issues. I have no idea how you get a mare used to having a foal bashing her about, she was quite happy with us stripping her and there are no antenatal classes for young mares! Would you anti chifney guys just stood back and let the foal struggle and get weak?
		
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Personally I think that in the circumstances you describe you do what you feel you have to. What I feel is wrong is when the use of gadgets become routine either in handling on the ground or to deal with riding issues.

Obviously, a maiden mare is subject to numerous influences including hormonal during foaming and the importance of colostrum for the foal is paramount. This is a one off, and does not really fall into the parameters of my argument.


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## Spit That Out (27 February 2011)

As most things/gadgets, they have their place and if used correctly then they are very useful.

People who have never experienced a serious rearer are very quick to say that Chifney's are cruel or should be banned but if used correctly can turn a dangerous horse in to a horse that can be led safely. 
Of course in the long term, time and effort should be put in to the training of the horse to reduce the need for the chifney but also to understand that no matter how much time is spent on the horse they may always need a chifney...each horse is different.


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## turkana (27 February 2011)

The only people I know have used a chifney have been dealing with a horse who came to them with issues; it's all very well saying that you should train the horse but training takes time, how are you supposed to handle a potentially dangerous horse in the mean time?


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## cptrayes (27 February 2011)

somethingorother said:



			I'm not saying you are lying. But if a horse rears/ tanks with no regard to it's handler then in my opinion it obviously needs further work doing with it. I wouldn't call that a 'perfectly trained' horse. 

Also i did not accuse you of digging the chifney into his tongue. That's how the chifney works. You yourself said he pulled back on it and then 'decided that was a bad idea'.... yes, because it hurt him. if we used an electric cattle prod to load a horse the first time, and then they loaded fine after that, is that ok??
		
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The chifney does NOT work that way unless there is stress on the lead line. If there is no weight on the lead line then the bit is so light and tiny that it has no effect of any significance at all. 

With the first horse, I said he gets separation anxiety on loading once in about three months and behaves perfectly the rest of the time. When he goes off on one he looks like a drug addict, but of course you don't believe that, as you have already said. But lets assume, shall we, that I am telling the truth. How would you train that kind of horse then?  The ones that DO exist, whether you like it or not, who have a serious, and inherited, screw loose. Who were born like it? When broken in, not by me, this horse left his companions and jumped two large fences to put himself back in his stable. He broke the windows on the horsebox when he was imported and his brother does the same. If I take him out on a hack tomorrow he will turn and run for home if a daffodil has grown on the verge where there was no daffodil last week. I have improved him beyond recognition in the five years I have had him, but he is still a very emotionally challenged horse.

Some horses are not "normal". You haven't met one yet. Lucky you, I bought one! I'd have sold him a long time ago but no-one in their right minds would buy him from me. I would have him put down rather than let him be passed from pillar to post for the rest of his life by people who can't manage him.

The horse who pulled back the once was my new one and he did it to HIMSELF. That's why it works and that's why prodding him with a cattle prod would be wrong training, because it would have been being done "to him". He taught himself the lesson and he learnt it well.


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## siennamum (27 February 2011)

I think this thread entertainingly highlights the gulf between those posters who have owned a couple of cobs, and consequently feel it is their duty to preach about how horses should be handled and those people who have handled/worked with sufficient horses to appreciate that one size doesn't fit all.


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## Cadfael&Coffee (27 February 2011)

siennamum said:



			I think this thread entertainingly highlights the gulf between those posters who have owned a couple of cobs, and consequently feel it is their duty to preach about how horses should be handled and those people who have handled/worked with sufficient horses to appreciate that one size doesn't fit all.
		
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Haha this made me snort!!! 

You may very well be right actually!!!  apart from the cob part- it can be any breed of the horse and they think they know it all!! (not aimed at anyone in particular)


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## Laafet (27 February 2011)

cptrayes said:



			The chifney does NOT work that way unless there is stress on the lead line. If there is no weight on the lead line then the bit is so light and tiny that it has no effect of any significance at all. 

With the first horse, I said he gets separation anxiety on loading once in about three months and behaves perfectly the rest of the time. When he goes off on one he looks like a drug addict, but of course you don't believe that, as you have already said. But lets assume, shall we, that I am telling the truth. How would you train that kind of horse then?  The ones that DO exist, whether you like it or not, who have a serious, and inherited, screw loose. Who were born like it? When broken in, not by me, this horse left his companions and jumped two large fences to put himself back in his stable. He broke the windows on the horsebox when he was imported and his brother does the same. If I take him out on a hack tomorrow he will turn and run for home if a daffodil has grown on the verge where there was no daffodil last week. I have improved him beyond recognition in the five years I have had him, but he is still a very emotionally challenged horse.

Some horses are not "normal". You haven't met one yet. Lucky you, I bought one! I'd have sold him a long time ago but no-one in their right minds would buy him from me. I would have him put down rather than let him be passed from pillar to post for the rest of his life by people who can't manage him.

The horse who pulled back the once was my new one and he did it to HIMSELF. That's why it works and that's why prodding him with a cattle prod would be wrong training, because it would have been being done "to him". He taught himself the lesson and he learnt it well.
		
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I hear your pain, I have one of these 'inherited' mentalist. He has improved beyond all recognition (sp) but at times we do have to resort to a chifney, plus a dually. Sometime I use a chain over his nose as he tend to resent bits in his mouth at the best of times. Oh and Monty Roberts himself did a demo with him at the ILPH some years ago, so he has been correctly trained. When he loses it he gets that 'druggie' look about him, reverts into himself and really on his own planet with little regard for anything about him. These episodes are no longer that frequent - thankfully.


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## Allover (27 February 2011)

Zabby said:



			At my school we used that bit.

We had a nervous mare. At first she was lead with a halter/headcollar like all other horses. She took off every day. So she was lead with a chain. The first two days she was 'controlled'', the she started taking off. Now she got lead with a chain attatched to a lunge-line. Helped for another few days. Then she was lead with this bitting device. Lasted a week.

Four weeks after she was bought, she was sold again, still constantly rearing, kicking bucking and taking off. Difficult to fetch in the pasture and getting issues with fetching in the stall too. Too dangerous for the school (not a regular riding school but a highschool with horses as the main theme).

Let me tell you another thing. When they couldn't fetch her the  last weeks, if it was my day at the barn, they called for me. It took me about 10 minutes to get her. I lead her with a headcollar, back to her stall. No misbehaviour whatsoever.
Because I had beaten her? I was big and dangerous? (lol!) I have some extraordinary magic powers? No. I just listened to her. When she ran away in the pasture I didn't chase her, just followed quietl, when she turned I rewarded her. When I lead her and she would start to tense up, I'd stroke her forehead or neck a bit and then walk on calmly expecting her to follow. I'm 160cm high, she's 180 at the withers.

If you need tools like this to controle the horse, you have no controle.

I can and will use a ropehalter and a long leadrope if I come to a ''bad'' horse. I will use a whip to point with and I willhit the horse if it attacks me, not otherwise. I'd never yank it in the mouth, it would definetly not make the day better.
		
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And if you were leading a stallion out to cover a mare would you let him get away from you and quietly follow him untill he relaxes, give him a pat and carry on as normal. No because in that time some serious damage could have been done to anyone or anything in the nearby area. 

Life is not black and white.


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## Zabby (27 February 2011)

siennamum said:



			I think this thread entertainingly highlights the gulf between those posters who have owned a couple of cobs, and consequently feel it is their duty to preach about how horses should be handled and those people who have handled/worked with sufficient horses to appreciate that one size doesn't fit all.
		
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And then there are people who has had their ways with difficult horses and won the battle without using gadgets. But I suppose that means that the mare in my previous post wasn't ''really'' bad, or the ardenner stallion attacking people wasn't ''that bad'', or the draft mare, or the shetland pony, or the throughbred that all would take off, rear and go ''insane''. Or when Crow taught himself to take off and go back to the pasture. Since it was handeled and dealt with without stronger bits or gadgets wit mechanical corection built in (like the chifney tunge poke) it must simply not have been that bad horses....?

I know one thing about horses. They arestronger than we are, even with equippment. And if you work only with gadgets, it won't be long before the horse realize it's still stronger.

Of course there are times where extra force is th best way to go, but they are never a part of the everyday routine and they are rare. By using technique and the intelligense we humans claim to have and be so proud of, we can show the horse that it's easier to follow us tha fight us.
If a horse is rearing, I adress the butt, not the head. A good whack with the leadrope on the butt enough times will make the horse think again before it gets up and ''locks'' the but in one place. I will whack the butt since a horse rearing over me is attacking me and that is but the only thing I'm definetly never tolerating. If the horse is just scared and rears away from me, I probably don't have to touch the butt, just swing the leadrope and my energy towards it. Then that's what I'll do.
The horse tries to take off, I work  the butt around and make sure to stay in a good angle from the halter where he keeps his heas more towards me. I may adress the issue in a paddock where I don't have the need to hold him but can work with him otherways. And yet these ''acute'' methods are not the fix to the problem. The fix to the problem is getting a good relation in everydays work. Why does the horse take off or rear? How's he's point of view and how can I change that to a more positive one? Horses won't bolt or rear just for the fun of it (apart from testing foals/youngsters, but they're easy to handle), they do it because that moment stresses them a whole lot and/or they have no respect for the person handeling them. Which won't be  helped through pain and stuff around their heads.

Can't stress it enough; you need to work with their mind and their butt, not their face.


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## Zabby (27 February 2011)

Allover said:



			And if you were leading a stallion out to cover a mare would you let him get away from you and quietly follow him untill he relaxes, give him a pat and carry on as normal. No because in that time some serious damage could have been done to anyone or anything in the nearby area. 

Life is not black and white.
		
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I never said I followed the horse. But with a long rope I  can let it get away from me without following it. I expected HER to follow me. And that was when she first tensed up,  not when she was halfway across the country. Life isn't black and white, so don't read things into posts that's not written there. In most cases, a little patiense and respect to the horse prevents the bad behaviour. If that's not enough, you adress the behaviour when t comes, but not by putting gadgets on and try to cause pain.

Edit: You're talking of in the pasture? Of course that is a completely different problem and handeled in a different way. But it's an example that your mindset and way to work makes a uge differense when handeling problems. And a great example too, because you can't use gadgets untill you've already catched the horse. I didn't have to work much with her when leading because I proved myself as a safe point before that.

A stallion I'd chase away from me and the mare and make him go around me untill he stops and relaxes. I'd make his butt and feet work, not try to keep him still and quiet. Same with any horse in that type of situation. I wouldn't let a mare run to another mare either, the point is that I keep myself in control, not gadgets. If the mare in my example had tried to take  off with me - which she didn't since she didn't find that necessary when I litened to her - I'd let her run around too.


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## charlie76 (27 February 2011)

well life would be easy if everyone could handle and train their horse from day one in the way they want to train it. However, reality check, many of us take on some one elses problems and issues, some of which are too ingrained to re train. 
when this happens, short of being killed, you have to resort to using training aids, be that ridden or in hand. Not necessarily for ever but just to show the horse how he should be behaving.
Secondly, althought not ideal, some people have horses for pleasure, unlike others who make it their life. Therefore they simply don't have time to spend hours every day reeducating the horse, the just want a quick, simple way to deal with their horse effectively.
Oh, and some horses are just ruddy great big thugs that you will never reason with!


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## paddi22 (27 February 2011)

Zabby said:



			I never said I followed the horse. But with a long rope I  can let it get away from me without following it. I expected HER to follow me. 
A stallion I'd chase away from me and the mare and make him go around me untill he stops and relaxes. I'd make his butt and feet work, not try to keep him still and quiet. Same with any horse in that type of situation. I wouldn't let a mare run to another mare either, the point is that I keep myself in control, not gadgets. If the mare in my example had tried to take  off with me - which she didn't since she didn't find that necessary when I litened to her - I'd let her run around too.
		
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and what would you do if you were a horse transporter and often had to load horses that were highly strung and that you didnt know? what if you had to load them from beside busy roads or dangerous areas as often happens. 
not all situations allow for your approach. 

in the right hands the chifney doesn't hurt at all. it can often save the horse a lot of stress and trauma instead of it rearing and going over.


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## paisley (27 February 2011)

Anyone with a squidge of intelligence will try and address and correct unwanted behaviour in the simplest way possible. Of course I want to lead/load/deal with my horse in a headcollar and nothing else. 

Would I use a chifney? Damn right I would, if I thought the situation warranted it. But I would always want to not use it, the same way I dont want to use a twitch or sedate but I would. 

And I've only ever had to use one for any length of time for a horse that was difficult to turn out. In his chifney, he trotted with his nose just in front of you, squealing madly in excitement, but with no pressure on the chifney. It was not possible to hold him in anything else, and we tried everything. And I'm not going to give my horse handling credentials, lets just say I  know the pointy end from the blunt end of a horse

You're not a bunny hugger if you dont use one or incompetent if you do, its your way of dealing with a situation until you find an easier or better way


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## Allover (27 February 2011)

Zabby said:



			No. I just listened to her. When she ran away in the pasture I didn't chase her, just followed quietl, when she turned I rewarded her. When I lead her and she would start to tense up, I'd stroke her forehead or neck a bit and then walk on calmly expecting her to follow. I'm 160cm high, she's 180 at the withers.
		
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Maybe i misunderstood this?


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## cptrayes (27 February 2011)

Laafet said:



			I hear your pain, I have one of these 'inherited' mentalist.
		
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Fun, aren't they  ? I don't think anyone can really understand the "drugged" effect until they see it. 

I wonder how Zabby, who suggests whacking his bum, thinks I should reach it? I am either not within 50 yards of it, him having decided, on this one occasion in 3 months, that he will simply rip the rope out of my hands and run off back to his chums, or I am tagging along for the ride swinging from his headcollar in a hopeless attempt to turn him. If I could reach it, does she really think that he would hang around to let me whack him on it? Not a chance!

I think what some people also don't seem to understand until they see it is that the chifney is like a magic potion. You put it on, and simply because it is there you never have to touch the thing. Like a magic wand has been waved and turned your crack-head into a born-again Christian. 

Zabby you aren't the only one with a history of retraining other people's disasters. I've done that too, without even thinking about a chifney. But this horse is different, and until you meet one like him you will never understand. To be fair, before I owned him I would probably not have believed it either.

I wonder also how many of these people advocating "kinder" methods have the kind of horses who are forever at your jacket, or your hands, looking for their next "treat". I see people standing laughing at their "lovely boy" as it rifles through their pockets, thinking that it's cute. That's not my idea of good training.


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## Allover (27 February 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I wonder also how many of these people advocating "kinder" methods have the kind of horses who are forever at your jacket, or your hands, looking for their next "treat". I see people standing laughing at their "lovely boy" as it rifles through their pockets, thinking that it's cute. That's not my idea of good training.
		
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It IS cute, it means their horsey worsey loves them more than anyone else in the whole wide world


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## Rouletterose (27 February 2011)

amandap said:



			This is I think one of the reasons pressure and release is considered bad by some.Pressure dosn't have to be painful or severe to be effective. I would argue that introducing pain and severe discomfort makes the horse resist and brace and certainly not enjoy what he is doing at that time.

I try and imagine a bit of metal sticking into my mouth and even if used by an expert, horses are strong and if they pull as well the pressure can surely be excruciating? 

Release is the part that is left out of the pressure and release (negative reinforcement) way of asking a horse. The release needs to be as soon as the horse makes the smallest 'try'/ effort to do what is asked, those small trys are often missed so the pressure is built and built and the horse doesn't understand why because his little 'trys' have resulted in more pressure (meaning no) rather than a release. (to say yes). Then us humans also carry on with the pressure or repeat the pressure when the horse has complied. A prime example here is constantly nudging legs once the horse is moving. Draw reins are often used (ime) to pull a horse into a desired shape or give the rider extra leverage (strength) on the bit to 'control' the horse by force.
I don't believe horses don't feel pain in their mouths or have less senstive mouths than us, in fact I guess their mouths are more sensitive than ours until they learn to push through and against the pain and need stronger bits.  
Just my opinion and I know many more knowledgable peeps don't agree, in this case knowledge doesn't mean empathy (ability to imagine others feelings) imo.

There may be a place for chifney use in extreme situations where immediate 'control' is needed but I personally wouldn't use one because the potential for inflicting pain is high imo.  I don't believe they should be used as a long term solution but can understand why they are used when different livery's have to lead horses etc.
		
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^^^^^^^^^this brilliantly put!


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## thatsmygirl (27 February 2011)

RunToEarth said:



			Another parelli dually fluffy bunny by any chance? 
I use chifneys, gags, spurs, draw reins, standing martingales and two reins on horses. I must be one of the most evil people going- but my horses are all happy...
		
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No one off the bare foot brigade.

Yes iv used chifneys.

Same as anything if used right they can be useful,  used wrong and harm can be done


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## Rouletterose (27 February 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I really do think this comment sums up a lot of the mind set on here and why there are such differing views. 

All these big problems folk have with their horse, were little problems which, not being properly addressed became big problems.

When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them.
~Tom Dorrance
		
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Absolutely!!!!! I hate it when I hear people call their horses stupid,mental, etc etc, usually means the horse has rather cleverly made THEM look stupid....... and noooooooo.I am NOT a parelli lover, we were doing pressure/release (properly) over 40 years ago.


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## cptrayes (27 February 2011)

Jeepers. You'd think the only reason everyone can't win the Olympic 100 metres is because they don't want to run it!

Not all people are born angels. Not all are born sane. Not all horses are born angels. Not all horses are born sane.

I'm sure that people have no difficulty at all understanding that one thoroughbred can run faster than another. The brain is only a soup of chemicals. Why then do some people have so much trouble understanding that some horses, like some people, have a very mixed up soup??

Most of the people spouting about the chifney on this thread have clearly never used one. The whole point of it is that the bit is so very severe when pressure is applied to it that the horse does not fight it. Only an idiot would allow a horse to fight a chifney because that would be one hell of  a scared horse who should be managed a different way, and yes there are plenty of idiots in the world. But in proper use the horse pulls at it once, (the handler does not pull, the horse does it to himself) and usually only once, and then respects it from that point onwards, on a loose rein where it has no physical effect at all.  

Rouletterose my horse is the overbred result of half a century of KWPN warmblood breeding targetting athletic performance at the expense of temperament. He cries when I talk to one of my others instead of him, and I mean "cries" just like a child sounds. If he was human he would have a statement of special needs, a classroom helper and probably live in a care home for his whole life. You need to meet one to understand.


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## amandap (27 February 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I wonder also how many of these people advocating "kinder" methods have the kind of horses who are forever at your jacket, or your hands, looking for their next "treat". I see people standing laughing at their "lovely boy" as it rifles through their pockets, thinking that it's cute. That's not my idea of good training.
		
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You have no idea how inadvertantly funny to me this is.  I am the scourge of some clicker trainers for my ego, apparent blind following of certain methods and meddlesome, obsessive ways... I was reading what some think of me just before I read this post. 
Sort of makes you see lots of grey areas when you see yourself through the eyes of others.


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## Taboo1968 (27 February 2011)

Well I've owned my lad for nearly 6 years, can safely say I know him inside out, however, in the extreme weather something changed and he became the raging tb that would have done well going back into racing, and as he was being so silly and rearing, I bought a chifney for him, for everyones safety including my own!  once the chifney is in, he is like a lamb..... on a headcollar he was dangerous.... so in the right set of circumstances, yes I think a chifney is a good idea.


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## miss_bird (27 February 2011)

On my old WB mare when she was fully fit she would barge and drag you to the field in the mornings and then back again in the evenings, she would literally walk all over you and if something was in the way she would slam you into it.
In went the chifney and after a couple tries no more barging, yes i used it on and off for a couple of months but never needed it again till she was pts 20odd yrs later.
It was safer for her, me and everyone around us, as she would just have tunnel vision to where she was going and nothing would stop her.
I would still use a chifney if i ever needed to and will always have one in my tack room.
Great piece of kit.


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## BSJAlove (27 February 2011)

i dont like them personally, im wincing at the thought of them being in the incorrect hands. i understand however some people have to use them or have no choice and thats absolutly fine. but for me, i dont think would ever use one.


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## RobinHood (27 February 2011)

I'd rather use a stallion ring than a chifney.


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## Zabby (27 February 2011)

Whacking bum ewas for a rearer rearing at  you. A rearer rearing 50 yards away isn't really a problem..

If you have a horse attempting to take off, and you go at the butt the right way, the horse will turn around and get the butt away from you and the face towards  you.

I'm NOT saying that these methods will work on every horse at every situation. That's the fun with horses; you have to figure out what works with that siruation and that horse. These are good ways to start  if you have that kind of problem, thn the horse may respond unexpectedly and this is where you use your brain to outsmart it.

Keeping the face will rarely do any good in the long run. It's getting the butt and  feet to work with the horses head in the acute situation, and training everyday behaviour in all parts of the horse handeling (even parts that's not a big problem) that makes the horse safe and easy.

How many of you with horses that will run away or pull in the halter has spent a few minutesevery day to teach the horse to soften and yield off the preassure? As in standing beside it, taking the slack out from the rope and waiting for the horse to turn  it's head and give the slack back. To the right, left and down. That is an excellent way to keep the horse from pulling through. It may not be all of the answer, but a little  part. Lots of small parts get big.



cptrayes said:



			Fun, aren't they  ? I don't think anyone can really understand the "drugged" effect until they see it. 

I wonder how Zabby, who suggests whacking his bum, thinks I should reach it? I am either not within 50 yards of it, him having decided, on this one occasion in 3 months, that he will simply rip the rope out of my hands and run off back to his chums, or I am tagging along for the ride swinging from his headcollar in a hopeless attempt to turn him. If I could reach it, does she really think that he would hang around to let me whack him on it? Not a chance!

I think what some people also don't seem to understand until they see it is that the chifney is like a magic potion. You put it on, and simply because it is there you never have to touch the thing. Like a magic wand has been waved and turned your crack-head into a born-again Christian. 

Zabby you aren't the only one with a history of retraining other people's disasters. I've done that too, without even thinking about a chifney. But this horse is different, and until you meet one like him you will never understand. To be fair, before I owned him I would probably not have believed it either.

I wonder also how many of these people advocating "kinder" methods have the kind of horses who are forever at your jacket, or your hands, looking for their next "treat". I see people standing laughing at their "lovely boy" as it rifles through their pockets, thinking that it's cute. That's not my idea of good training.
		
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## Zabby (27 February 2011)

How many in this thread is discussing this from a view of handeling unknown horses once in their lives at risky/unusual situations for the horse?

I've already said that there may be times when force and gadgets/tack may be the right answer. But those times are rare and never part of the daily routine.

I woudn't mind seeing anyone use this bit for a short time on an unuly horse that perhaps bolts without warning or is impossible to hold with a rope halter (I have yet to meet that horse) no matter how you  do it - if the person also trained and worked the problem in other ways. I don't think it's the best thing since this bit gives a completely different preasure than a regular halter/headcollar, so it's difficult to transfer the training to work without the device later. But I'm not against it.

But where do you usually see these things in peoples barns? As everyday tools, or used without any other work to solve the problem, it's normally used to not have to worry about actually dealing with the horses issues. People may use it wih an intent to actually work the problem, they put this device on, the horse gets nice and then they get surprised when the horse still won't go nice in a regular halter - because they havn't adressed the issue to actually train the horse. And in worst case scenarios, the horse learns to pull through this too and then there are no last resort anymore.



paddi22 said:



			and what would you do if you were a horse transporter and often had to load horses that were highly strung and that you didnt know? what if you had to load them from beside busy roads or dangerous areas as often happens. 
not all situations allow for your approach. 

in the right hands the chifney doesn't hurt at all. it can often save the horse a lot of stress and trauma instead of it rearing and going over.
		
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## Zabby (27 February 2011)

Allover said:



			Maybe i misunderstood this?
		
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That was with a loose horse. When leading it was to adress the stress she showed before she started to misbehave. Naturally I won't pet a misbehaving horse.


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## Zabby (27 February 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Zabby you aren't the only one with a history of retraining other people's disasters. I've done that too, without even thinking about a chifney. But this horse is different, and until you meet one like him you will never understand. To be fair, before I owned him I would probably not have believed it either.

I wonder also how many of these people advocating "kinder" methods have the kind of horses who are forever at your jacket, or your hands, looking for their next "treat". I see people standing laughing at their "lovely boy" as it rifles through their pockets, thinking that it's cute. That's not my idea of good training.
		
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I wasn't aware that we talked about a specific horse. I still very much doubt that a chifney is the best and only answer -  especially  for the rest of the horse's lifetime. It may work, and it may be an easy way out for both horse and rider if the horse learns to keep the slack on the rein/lead and the rider/person is good with release and timing. But I still believe that there ae other issues underneth the behaviour, that would help in the long  run and would help the mental health and behaviour overall of the horse. Finding such reasos can be difficult enough, adressing them might be worse or easier depending on what it is. And if the chifney works, it may not be absolutely necvessary to find those reasons. but I still think it would be good.

I hate begging horses or any horse climbing on you, I doubt the horses are very content and happy with that behaviour either.
I'm not really a ''kind'' or soft person, I believe in respect from both sides, understanding but also consistens and firmness. Lots of ''natural'' horse people would probably think I'm cruel. I've ust found that gadgets and devices shouldn't be necessary. I ride in a shanked bit because of the way it ''talks'' to the horse, not because it makes me stronger - the horse stops and turns as well in a snaffle or halter. Same with other equipment; I don't judge them of how they can be mis-used, I judge them of  how they're intended to be used. And the chifney is a device I have a very hard time finding a good use for other than in extreme/acute situations. Like a twitch and sedatiing. If I need to sedate my horse to lead it, I need to adress the problem. But I  will sedate him when pulling the wolf teeth out. If I'm leading someone elses ''crazy'' horse once ;I'll use a chifney. On my own horse I'd work with the problem.


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## Spring Feather (27 February 2011)

Zabby said:



			And in worst case scenarios, the horse learns to pull through this too and then there are no last resort anymore.
		
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I handle hundreds and hundreds of horses every year and although I rarely use chifneys, I have done on many horses over the years, and I've never ever come across one that doesn't respect it.  A chifney IS the last resort and it works.

You sound like a lovely person with great ideals however you also sound like someone who has not dealt with a varied range of horse types.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (27 February 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			I handle hundreds and hundreds of horses every year and although I rarely use chifneys, I have done on many horses over the years, and I've never ever come across one that doesn't respect it.  A chifney IS the last resort and it works.

You sound like a lovely person with great ideals however you also sound like someone who has not dealt with a varied range of horse types.
		
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I agree, the Chifney is a last resort to those who haven't the time or inclination to try alternative methods. But your last comment is extremely condescending. Just because you "handle hundreds and hundreds of horses every year" is of no consequence - what percentage are truly unmanageable without the use of a Chifney? 



.


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## Zabby (27 February 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			I handle hundreds and hundreds of horses every year and although I rarely use chifneys, I have done on many horses over the years, and I've never ever come across one that doesn't respect it.  A chifney IS the last resort and it works.

You sound like a lovely person with great ideals however you also sound like someone who has not dealt with a varied range of horse types.
		
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Why thank you 

But I've handeled a horse that learnt to pull though that. The mare in one of the other posts. I can't say how she was handeled, it was a lot of different people using it and leading her so I doubt all of them was doing it in the best way, but still she learnt to pull through and take off despite the bit.


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## Allover (27 February 2011)

Zabby, now i think i understand your posts better. You are saying that at the right time in the right place the chifney can be a useful piece of kit BUT if a horse is trained to respect its handler and understands and has respect for, and from, its handler then the chifney should not need to be used? 

If that is the case then completely agree with you 

I think we all know on here though that there are situations that arise with horses that need to be dealt with there and then, especially when horses have learnt to mistrust or disrespect the human handling it, for whatever reason.


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## skewby (27 February 2011)

Wow, contentious issue!  Good thread!

I don't really have an opinion.  My vet insists on handling all horses in chifneys, I had an opinion on that, and flatly refused to let them put on on mine.  Because never on this Earth would he need that, and he proved me right when they backed down and handled and lunged him in his headcollar.

I would however have less of a reaction to seeing a horse led quietly in a chifney, than I do from seeing numerous horses being hoiked in the gob on a regular basis by a too strong bit and nasty hands, ridden.


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## Tinypony (27 February 2011)

Skewby, are you saying your vet was going to lunge your horse in a chifney?


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## Spring Feather (27 February 2011)

Zabby said:



			Why thank you 

But I've handeled a horse that learnt to pull though that. The mare in one of the other posts. I can't say how she was handeled, it was a lot of different people using it and leading her so I doubt all of them was doing it in the best way, but still she learnt to pull through and take off despite the bit.
		
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Interesting.  What mouthpiece does your chifney have?  Mine has a ported mouthpiece and as I mentioned above I've never handled a horse that has not totally respected it.


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## Cadfael&Coffee (27 February 2011)

skewby said:



			Wow, contentious issue!  Good thread!

I don't really have an opinion.  My vet insists on handling all horses in chifneys, I had an opinion on that, and flatly refused to let them put on on mine.  Because never on this Earth would he need that, and he proved me right when they backed down and handled and lunged him in his
		
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What on earth...???? I have never come across a vet like that, and if one insisted I put a chifney on mine I'm afraid he would be told were to stick it!! How dare they assume that every horse needs a chifney!!

As I've said before, there are a few situations when I would consider a chifney,  but never on a horse that did not need one!!

I'm sorry, I really can't believe that!! I'm glad you told them where to go though!!

What rubbish!!


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## Zabby (27 February 2011)

Allover said:



			Zabby, now i think i understand your posts better. You are saying that at the right time in the right place the chifney can be a useful piece of kit BUT if a horse is trained to respect its handler and understands and has respect for, and from, its handler then the chifney should not need to be used? 

If that is the case then completely agree with you 

I think we all know on here though that there are situations that arise with horses that need to be dealt with there and then, especially when horses have learnt to mistrust or disrespect the human handling it, for whatever reason.
		
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Yeah, basically that's what I mean I guess  But I don't really believe in the chifney as a part of re-training the horse since it gives so different signals than any ''nicer'' head-tack. The chance that the horse wil learn to give to a halters preassure on the poll and mouth when dealt with by preassure of that bit is rather small. It can be used at some times and you might succeed, but I don't think it will be any help.
Perhaps a solution would be to use it in everyday life when you don't have time to deal with the situation, and also set time off with a halter alone to specifically work the leading problem. To save frustration and accidents. We all know that working when you're stressed out is a bad idea, so working a rearer and at the same time have 15 other horses to care for before work is probably a bad idea.

With this I'm leaving this thread. I don't have anything more to add and those not agreeing with me by now probably never will anyway


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## Zabby (27 February 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			Interesting.  What mouthpiece does your chifney have?  Mine has a ported mouthpiece and as I mentioned above I've never handled a horse that has not totally respected it.
		
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One with that ''u'' shape in the middle that pokes the tounge.. didn't know there were different  chifneys, actually..? Thought the O-shaped one had another name.


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## mcnaughty (27 February 2011)

Zabby said:



			If you have a horse attempting to take off, and you go at the butt the right way, the horse will turn around and get the butt away from you and the face towards  you.

.
		
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And as it runs past you it gives you a sly kick on the way.  I have had this happen - thankfully the young TB mare in question had no shoes on but her bare hoof still left a pretty coloured bruise the size of a side plate on my thigh for weeks....  Actually I prefer my horses to stay where they are supposed to stay - by my shoulder with 4 feet on the ground and I will use whatever means necessary to keep them there!


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## skewby (27 February 2011)

I use Willesley Equine, and I'm sure others can corroborate as I know many of us use them.  They're fab, but yes they will only handle AND LUNGE in a chifney.  Soon as they were ready for the horse, the vet nurses came over with the chifney.  I kicked up a bejesus of a stink, said I'd sign a disclaimer, whatever they wanted, but they were not putting that in my horse's gob as never in this world would he require it!  (I also pointed out, that never in this world would it be big enough, as my horse is extra full and a 6.5" bit.  Which would have added to his discomfort, so as far as I was concerned they could take a running jump.)

As I said; when the vet arrived, he saw straightaway that I meant business and told the girls to take the chifney away, and went about his work quite happily with my lad still in the headcollar in which he arrived.

Have been their numerous times with friends' horses and it is their policy.  Most owners go along with it just fine.  They told me that if a horse got away from them and damage was caused, the chifney would prove they had taken all necessary precautions.

I also saw, whilst there, many horses being lunged in the chifney, and more often than not I FELT it affected their way of going.  So I was dubious as to the wisdom of it on that score, as a horse unhappy in its head is going to wave it about, thereby affecting the rest of its body/movement.  Surely not what you want when assessing a horse on the lunge for any sign of lameness.


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## Allover (27 February 2011)

Skewby i am shocked, a bridle OK but a chifney, no way!!

Ooh, just realised that rhymed!!!!!


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## ChesnutsRoasting (27 February 2011)

skewby said:



			I use Willesley Equine, and I'm sure others can corroborate as I know many of us use them.  They're fab, but yes they will only handle AND LUNGE in a chifney.  Soon as they were ready for the horse, the vet nurses came over with the chifney.  I kicked up a bejesus of a stink, said I'd sign a disclaimer, whatever they wanted, but they were not putting that in my horse's gob as never in this world would he require it!  (I also pointed out, that never in this world would it be big enough, as my horse is extra full and a 6.5" bit.  Which would have added to his discomfort, so as far as I was concerned they could take a running jump.)

As I said; when the vet arrived, he saw straightaway that I meant business and told the girls to take the chifney away, and went about his work quite happily with my lad still in the headcollar in which he arrived.

Have been their numerous times with friends' horses and it is their policy.  Most owners go along with it just fine.  They told me that if a horse got away from them and damage was caused, the chifney would prove they had taken all necessary precautions.

I also saw, whilst there, many horses being lunged in the chifney, and more often than not I FELT it affected their way of going.  So I was dubious as to the wisdom of it on that score, as a horse unhappy in its head is going to wave it about, thereby affecting the rest of its body/movement.  Surely not what you want when assessing a horse on the lunge for any sign of lameness.
		
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Bizarre! Sounds like someone has lost their nerve re handling horses. Cannot understand the logic of lungeing a horse in a Chifney either.


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## Kokopelli (27 February 2011)

skewby said:



			I use Willesley Equine, and I'm sure others can corroborate as I know many of us use them.  They're fab, but yes they will only handle AND LUNGE in a chifney.  Soon as they were ready for the horse, the vet nurses came over with the chifney.  I kicked up a bejesus of a stink, said I'd sign a disclaimer, whatever they wanted, but they were not putting that in my horse's gob as never in this world would he require it!  (I also pointed out, that never in this world would it be big enough, as my horse is extra full and a 6.5" bit.  Which would have added to his discomfort, so as far as I was concerned they could take a running jump.)
		
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When my boy fell ill he was sent here and they didn't put a chifney in him, perhaps it was because it was an emergency or maybe they have changed their methods since.

They are still amazing vets and I wouldn't think twice about sending a horse here, although they are not my normal vet.


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## Tinypony (27 February 2011)

That's bright of them isn't it?  Take a horse that has potentially never had such ironmongery in it's mouth, then lunge it off it and think you will be seeing it's usual way of going.  Would anyone lunge off a bit anyway?  I wouldn't.
I've come across this situation with vets only handling horses in a chifney though, to my cost.  It never occured to me that my vets would routinely slap a chifney in the mouth of every horse they handled (when the owners weren't there).  I had to leave my mare there for xrays and she came home headshy and wouldn't let me any where near her mouth.  The vet denied using a chifney, but a vet nurse told me later that they did as a routine.  So my poor horse, who had never even been ridden in a bit...


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## jenbleep (27 February 2011)

The horse I rode Frankie used to get rather excited when he was being turned out, and his field was across the main road so we used a Chifney to keep him under as much control as we could! Worked for us


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## somethingorother (27 February 2011)

Love how anyone who dares to say they don't like chifneys (never mind that most of us say in rare and drastic one off cases then they have their place!) is either a fluffy bunny hugger, a dopey cob owner or has only ever had one horse and it was a saint.... 

Which of us live in a black and white world?? And which of us need to get in the real worl... ?


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## Zebedee (27 February 2011)

I will use any tool or piece of equipment that does the job I need it to. If the choice is between using a chifney or putting myself or the horse at risk in anyway the chifney wins hands down. Several that I have found the need to use one on in the last few years have been ruined by inept NH type handling. Obviously not all NH handling is inept -far from it, but those who decide to  'have a go' after seeing a demo, or watching a DVD are little short of lethal !


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## cptrayes (27 February 2011)

Zabby said:



			I wasn't aware that we talked about a specific horse. I still very much doubt that a chifney is the best and only answer
		
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Yes I thought you weren't reading what I was writing. So I will ask the question again. 

The horse is genetically programmed to be extremely over emotional and over reactive. His father is himself described as "quirky" and throws stock with similar traits to my own.

I have spent five years improving his behaviour beyond recognition in the face of my friends questionning why I continue with him at all. He will now stay in a stable rather than climb the door. He will travel quietly as opposed to taking out the windows. He will hack out past hens that he used to insist were going to kill him. He will follow me anywhere and he cries if I leave him. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

He throws separation anxiety behaviour on loading roughly once every three months. I handle him mainly completely naked (him not me  ) most of the time and the rest in a headcollar and lead rope if we are going somewhere. The separation anxiety can occur with horses that he has only seen in a collecting ring and has no relationship with, but who he suddenly decides he is not prepared to leave.

You are so insistent that I should not need a chifney for him if only I had him properly trained. How would you retrain this horse not to need a chifney on that one time in three months?


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## yeeharider (27 February 2011)

Rouletterose my horse is the overbred result of half a century of KWPN warmblood breeding targetting athletic performance at the expense of temperament. He cries when I talk to one of my others instead of him, and I mean "cries" just like a child sounds. If he was human he would have a statement of special needs, a classroom helper and probably live in a care home for his whole life. You need to meet one to understand.[/QUOTE]
This statement made me cry I too have a horse that fits into this catagorie he was abused as a youngster and it has taken me years to get hm to trust me I would never use the chifney on him i think he would die


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## Zabby (27 February 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Yes I thought you weren't reading what I was writing. So I will ask the question again. 

The horse is genetically programmed to be extremely over emotional and over reactive. His father is himself described as "quirky" and throws stock with similar traits to my own.

I have spent five years improving his behaviour beyond recognition in the face of my friends questionning why I continue with him at all. He will now stay in a stable rather than climb the door. He will travel quietly as opposed to taking out the windows. He will hack out past hens that he used to insist were going to kill him. He will follow me anywhere and he cries if I leave him. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

He throws separation anxiety behaviour on loading roughly once every three months. I handle him mainly completely naked (him not me  ) most of the time and the rest in a headcollar and lead rope if we are going somewhere. The separation anxiety can occur with horses that he has only seen in a collecting ring and has no relationship with, but who he suddenly decides he is not prepared to leave.

You are so insistent that I should not need a chifney for him if only I had him properly trained. How would you retrain this horse not to need a chifney on that one time in three months?
		
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I'm insisting that a horse ''needing'' that tack in every day routines needs better training and/or a more confident person. 

First off, once every three months is NOT everyday routine. Even if I doubt most horses will have any benefit of it and even if it's more often than I like, it's not every day.

Second off; You are not training with the bit, as I understood it. You're training without the bit and using it as a last resort when the training wasn't enough. As far as I'm concerned from your description, your training with him isn't ''finished'' and you're not using the bit as a solution instead of helping the horse get over his issues. You still work with him to get him more confident by the way you handle him, right?
Besides I have no idea how your horse has been  trained in any part of his life, why he gets crazy every third month (perhaps he rather needs medecine to keep the hormones right, what do I know?), if the tack fits, what he has experienced or even how he acts up when you feel you need that bit. How on earth would I know how to train him? Plus, I'm not a professional and I'm not the  best horseperson in the world. I've never claimed to be. I have experience with horses but most off I have experience with horse people. And in 99% of the cases when people need more severe tack for controle, the basic issue is training and attitude of the rider. They normally claim it's impossible on their horse. Some realize they're not skilled or motivated enugh to train and that's why they need the tack. (which is a good step because then they are open to learn)
But I still believe that somewhere there is a reason  for the horses behaviour and that severe tack will only fix the symptoms, if anything. 

Third:  Fine. You might have a super special horse that requires pain to be obedient and can't possibly be trained otherwise. How many people using severe tack will use that excuse? :3 Not saying it's impossible that those horses excist, but I wonder how often that's really the case related to how often people claim their horse to be such. (And if those horses wouldn't be better of dead, really. Still talking of everyday routine crazy. And a bit of his father; why on earth breed on it?)

_I'm not blaming you_ for using the bit once in a while. I'm not saying it's cruel to use it during those circumstanses. Obviously you have done a great job with the horse already. Perhaps he just needs even more time. Perhaps he has a brain damage. Perhaps anything. I'm not saying I could have done a better job. But I still believe that there is another way to handle it - even in a special case like this - if you find the true reason to why the horse acts up, there is a big chance that you can find a true solution for it. What stirs the emotions that gets so 'big'' for him? What does he need to stay calm in his mind, what's lacking and how can you give that to him? And I'm not even saying that you _have_ to fix it or find that other way with this very horse, but I still believe it's there. And I bet it would be really exciting to find out what it was. 

And I definetly believe that this bit is not solving any problem and shouldn't be used as a solution or instead of training (_I've said this before too, and you are obviously training him as well, not only relying on the bit or using the bit as the main aid in the training_). It may be necessary in some situations, and under some periods of a horses life during re-training - for safety, but training without it and with focus on working with technique rather than force is still necessary to help the problem and get the horse to a state of mind where he will feel good and be safe. That is my view on the chifney bit as such, and not related to your specific case.


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## cptrayes (28 February 2011)

Zabby said:



			But I still believe that there is another way to handle it - even in a special case like this - if you find the true reason to why the horse acts up, there is a big chance that you can find a true solution for it.
		
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Zany do you really believe that there is not one horse in the world who was simply born odd? Especially when they are the product of generations of breeding designed to produce movement and not taking account of temperament? Where others in the family show the same behaviour?  I find that German horses are known for being much calmer, in general, than KWPN with Dutch origins, for precisely the reason that KWPNs were focussed on their huge movement while the German's also bred for trainability. 

The true reason my horse behaves the way he does from time to time (not on any timetable, at random) is because he is mentally unstable, just like some people are mentally unstable. He's a fragile, neurotic brained creature in a huge, athletically capable body. He looks very like Mistral Hojris, and that's a horse who has taken until he is 15 to consent to work on a regular basis, and even now there are days that they bring him out when he will not play nice, and they put him back on the lorry.

I do understand that you are not criticising me, please don't think that I do. But I can't understand how anyone who spends time with either humans or other animals can't see that some horses are born with undesireable behaviour hard-wired.

This is, by the way, NO excuse for idiots who don't know what they are doing to go hauling their horses about in a chifney!  But they are a very useful tool to have in the toolbox.


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## skewby (28 February 2011)

Tinypony said:



			That's bright of them isn't it?  Take a horse that has potentially never had such ironmongery in it's mouth, then lunge it off it and think you will be seeing it's usual way of going.  Would anyone lunge off a bit anyway?  I wouldn't.
I've come across this situation with vets only handling horses in a chifney though, to my cost.  It never occured to me that my vets would routinely slap a chifney in the mouth of every horse they handled (when the owners weren't there).  I had to leave my mare there for xrays and she came home headshy and wouldn't let me any where near her mouth.  The vet denied using a chifney, but a vet nurse told me later that they did as a routine.  So my poor horse, who had never even been ridden in a bit...
		
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That is an awful story.  But yes, my horse went to Willesley for nerve blocks, while we were waiting for them to effect, I stood with him and watched numerous other horses being lunged in chifneys.  Clearly uncomfortable in their mouths and moving oddly as a result, but hey what do I know?

If you look at their homepage, http://www.bwequinevets.co.uk/, it's not conclusive, but if you wait for the pic of a haltered horse being held by two owners/vet nurses to appear, you can just see the horse has something in its mouth, resembling a chifney.  Also note the horse is in a leather headcollar, and you can see a headpiece also.


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## bliss87 (28 February 2011)

my horse has to be turned in and out from the field in one because he gets far to bolshy when going to the field and if everything flips when you bring him in you cant hold him safly ina headcollar

he also has it on loading as he just walks up the ramp with it on unlike if hes in a headcollar


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## Colleen_Miss_Tom (28 February 2011)

Lol .....really am laughing out loud at some of these comments and how patronising some of you actually are .....Every situation and every horse is different . 

I use a chifney practically every day for my 4/5 year old 16.2hh mare . She walks with no pressure at all needed .....Why do I continue to use it ?? Because she can have her moments where something will ....god forbid jump out at her and she is a big girl who would pull you off her feet in a headcollar . 

She is in no pain WHATSOEVER with the chifney ...... every time I put it on her, she opens her mouth for the bit EVERY SINGLE TIME .....Do you think she would open her mouth if it caused her pain ?? 
She would not load due to a fall in the horsebox which was through no fault of her own . We did everything slowly until one day she decided that she was going to rear and drag anyone that was on the other end of the leadrope around the yard . Until one day a good friend of mine suggested the chifney whilst up her yard, From that day my mare walks straight into the box without any fuss . 

She is a very happy mare and I will continue to use the chifney ......better to be safe than sorry, for her safety and for mine .


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## nikkimariet (28 February 2011)

Colleen_Miss_Tom said:



			She is a very happy mare and I will continue to use the chifney ......better to be safe than sorry, for her safety and for mine .
		
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Second this.


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## Zabby (28 February 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Zany do you really believe that there is not one horse in the world who was simply born odd? Especially when they are the product of generations of breeding designed to produce movement and not taking account of temperament? Where others in the family show the same behaviour?  I find that German horses are known for being much calmer, in general, than KWPN with Dutch origins, for precisely the reason that KWPNs were focussed on their huge movement while the German's also bred for trainability. 

The true reason my horse behaves the way he does from time to time (not on any timetable, at random) is because he is mentally unstable, just like some people are mentally unstable. He's a fragile, neurotic brained creature in a huge, athletically capable body. He looks very like Mistral Hojris, and that's a horse who has taken until he is 15 to consent to work on a regular basis, and even now there are days that they bring him out when he will not play nice, and they put him back on the lorry.

I do understand that you are not criticising me, please don't think that I do. But I can't understand how anyone who spends time with either humans or other animals can't see that some horses are born with undesireable behaviour hard-wired.

This is, by the way, NO excuse for idiots who don't know what they are doing to go hauling their horses about in a chifney!  But they are a very useful tool to have in the toolbox.
		
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It's not about not seeing that horses are different or that some are mentally unstable. I just don't believe in violence/pain in any kind of training.

I wouldn't use pain (this bit works through pain, I doubt anyone denies that) dealing with a mentally disabled or neurotic human, and I would not use it on an animal. The exception is when I'm physically attacked or risking my own or others lives. Not as a training aid but as self defence. 

And frankly, a horse that _normally_ will risk peoples or its own safety and is completely impossible to help without inflicting pain or working through pain, is better off in heaven (or reincarnated with less nerves..). Or set free in a herd, but that's not really possible in these parts of the world.. As I've said before - these horses are extremely rare. Even your ''mentally unstable'' horse has improved loads from the training, no?. I wonder if he'd be completely sane at all times if he had gotten that kind of training from start. Not certain, but maybe.


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## cptrayes (28 February 2011)

You put "mentally unstable" in inverted commas and clearly again are telling me that you think I am wrong, when you've never met this horse. First you tell me that he can't possibly look as if he is on drugs. Now that he cannot be "mentally unstable". You seem to think I don't know my own horse.

There is no evidence of any kind that he did NOT get good training from the start. He was well started by the man I bought him from, I know that, and he came direct from stud unbroken, so I doubt anyone had messed him up at the stud. You just don't believe that some horses can just act nuts from time to time for no reason at all, no matter how good their training has been, do you?

Have you ever come across a horse who after five years of hacking the same road will attempt to turn and run for home because last week the foxglove on the verge was full of purple flowers and this week the flowers are all gone? Do you seriously think that there is any training that will completely cure a horse as hypersensitive as that?

We have a difference of opinion here which we can never reconcile. You don't believe any horses like mine exist, or at least that they would not be that way "if only" they'd been trained properly from a baby. I know that they exist - he's out in my barn and someone else has his brother, poor girl.  If you are ever in this country and want to meet the kind of horse you've never come across before, let me know!


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 February 2011)

I haven't read through all of the posts as I can't be bothered. 

I use a chifney quite frequently. Racehorses are no longer allowed to be lead around at the racecourses without a bit of some form in their mouths and the chifney is the preferred choice as it is easy to put on and off. I say I use one in a loose term - I put it on because I have to but the attached rope tends to be loose as said horse is trundling along quite happily beside me. I have never had to use one for the design with which they were intended. If you need to use one for safety reasons then do so. Simple as.


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## Natch (1 March 2011)

QR

A piece of equipment which has its place, all be it a very limited one in my tack room, but I wish people were all trained in their use - properly - before they are given them.


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## Natch (1 March 2011)

Urgh - why does HHO get so darn polarised at times like these?

Use a chifney, use a dually, use nothing at all, it really doesn't matter to me - but do it in the horse's best interests and keeping safety first.


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## traceyann (1 March 2011)

when i took my cob to rossdales they put him a chifney in i wasnt happy has never needed one or controller halter since he was three they also lunge him in it but he had been box rested for six months and i can see why he total exploded rearing bucking and trying to take of if he hadnt had it we wouldnt have seen him for dust and he was four out five lame he is normally excellent to handle rope round the neck type i was so shocked never seen my horse like this ever


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## Zabby (1 March 2011)

cptrayes said:



			You put "mentally unstable" in inverted commas and clearly again are telling me that you think I am wrong, when you've never met this horse. First you tell me that he can't possibly look as if he is on drugs. Now that he cannot be "mentally unstable". You seem to think I don't know my own horse.

There is no evidence of any kind that he did NOT get good training from the start. He was well started by the man I bought him from, I know that, and he came direct from stud unbroken, so I doubt anyone had messed him up at the stud. You just don't believe that some horses can just act nuts from time to time for no reason at all, no matter how good their training has been, do you?

Have you ever come across a horse who after five years of hacking the same road will attempt to turn and run for home because last week the foxglove on the verge was full of purple flowers and this week the flowers are all gone? Do you seriously think that there is any training that will completely cure a horse as hypersensitive as that?

We have a difference of opinion here which we can never reconcile. You don't believe any horses like mine exist, or at least that they would not be that way "if only" they'd been trained properly from a baby. I know that they exist - he's out in my barn and someone else has his brother, poor girl.  If you are ever in this country and want to meet the kind of horse you've never come across before, let me know!
		
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You're jumping to conclusions again. I use " around ''mentally unstable'' because I want it to mean more and other things than just the definition of the words, and to include those that are said to be mentally unstable without being it.

I've never said anything about looking or not looking like he's on drugs. Never said that he's in pain everytime the bit is used - once he lernt to obey it. Never said you're wrong to use the bit (since you don't use it instead of training).

I really don't know why you keep arguing with me.


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## Ladylina83 (1 March 2011)

I've read this with great interest as someone who has spent 10 years of her life with an opinionated diva of a mare and spent many days hanging off the end of a leadrope should she "get one on her" She can be a lovely well mannered butter wouldn't melt beast but likes to show her distaste by waving her front feet at you ! ..... So I'm thinking "Why the hell didn't I think of a chifney before " Because I haven't used one before maybe ?? So how does one become experienced in using a chifney ? all the comments re in the wrong hands etc are you referring to someone who has no experience at using one or really someone who is unsympathetic and heavy handed with one? Surely there comes a day when someone thinks "I can't cope with this animal right now next solution please" as for everyone that has posted positively towards the chiffney there must have been a first time you used it, so who showed you and would you mind explaining to us how exactly it should be used please.


.... I am now thinking the last 10 years of my life could have been a little easier during times of high spirits ! I have seen many chifneys used and never thought it looked cruel &#8211; honestly believe it is better for us to be safe on the ground and not have a horse on its back legs in the air ! I know loads of old wives tales to stop horses from rearing but not one thing that really works or we&#8217;d all be doing it (fluffy or not) 

PS my horse does rear in a dually


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## coen (1 March 2011)

I really dislike them, my horse started rearing in hand when coming in from the field last summer but I took and lunge line and whip instead and the problem was sorted. The damage that can be done, especially if the horse gets free with it on just is not worth the risk to me I would also worry about causing more issues.

I can understand in certain situations, each to their own I guess.


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## cptrayes (1 March 2011)

Zabby said:



			You're jumping to conclusions again. I use " around ''mentally unstable'' because I want it to mean more and other things than just the definition of the words, and to include those that are said to be mentally unstable without being it.

I've never said anything about looking or not looking like he's on drugs. Never said that he's in pain everytime the bit is used - once he lernt to obey it. Never said you're wrong to use the bit (since you don't use it instead of training).

I really don't know why you keep arguing with me.
		
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Apologies, Zabby, I mistook you for another poster who told me he did not look drugged when he goes off on one. I also want to apologise for getting your name wrong in a post. It was a genuine mistake and not an attempt to be rude, though I will completely understand if no-one believes me on that.

I keep arguing  with you because I find it a fascinating discussion every time it comes up, here or anywhere else - can people/horses be born bad or are they only ever made that way?

But if you don't want to discuss it, don't, that's fine.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (1 March 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Apologies, Zabby, I mistook you for another poster who told me he did not look drugged when he goes off on one. I also want to apologise for getting your name wrong in a post. It was a genuine mistake and not an attempt to be rude, though I will completely understand if no-one believes me on that.

I keep arguing  with you because I find it a fascinating discussion every time it comes up, here or anywhere else - can people/horses be born bad or are they only ever made that way?

But if you don't want to discuss it, don't, that's fine.
		
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I, too am fascinated by the the theory, are some horses born bad? But what is bad and what is mad? I often think that if my mare were human she would be under sedation in a padded cell. She is a gentle soul, but lives on her nerves. The slightest change in environment will trigger an over reactive response. I deal with her in a very quiet, relaxed manner, something I have had to learn to do a I am naturally fiery and impatient. She has taught me so much and for that I am grateful.


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## Zabby (1 March 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Apologies, Zabby, I mistook you for another poster who told me he did not look drugged when he goes off on one. I also want to apologise for getting your name wrong in a post. It was a genuine mistake and not an attempt to be rude, though I will completely understand if no-one believes me on that.

I keep arguing  with you because I find it a fascinating discussion every time it comes up, here or anywhere else - can people/horses be born bad or are they only ever made that way?

But if you don't want to discuss it, don't, that's fine.
		
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That's alright, and I assumed my name was a typo. 

I believe horses and people alike, are born individuals. I find it obvious that some are kinder, have more or less  compassion, more or less patiense, integrity etc and therefore will fit easier or harder into the frames and demands of the world around them. I believe that the surroundings can make these traits more or less of a problem, (_through training or through changing the demands. A very calm dressage horse is bad if it keeps it from using any unecessary energy in the moves, a very calm trail horse for beginners is good. Trait became good instead of bad_) and even though there are  those that won't be comfortable in their situation (_in a horses case, perhaps the only sitation they're really suited for is in a wild herd_) I still believe that most can be adapted to function in most situations if they're treated the right way and have their needs looked after as well as possible. Your horse is - after your description - a proof of that if you will. He might still have his setbacks, but he has learnt to lead a somewhat normal life together with humans even though the traits he was born with isn't really ideal for that.

So in short, there are traits, good and bad for different things, mixed up in every being, but the surrounding world makes most of the shaping of these traits. You may never be able to completely remove the nerves of a nervous horse, but you can make the trait more or less active. By focusing on and rewarding other traits and needs of the horse, the nervousness will be pushed back only to be used in extreme situations or ''bad days''(_from the horses point of view._) or if the horse gets more and more bad experiences it will get more and more nervous.

Then we have brain damage and diseases and that's trickier. Much harder to work with. I'm not going into those because frankly I know little about it. I know of a very nice horse getting cancer or some lump in the brain, pressing some nerves/tissue and it would suddenly and without warning start rearing, bucking and charging at people, just to calm down a minute later again.


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## Zabby (1 March 2011)

blazingsaddles said:



			I, too am fascinated by the the theory, are some horses born bad? But what is bad and what is mad? I often think that if my mare were human she would be under sedation in a padded cell. She is a gentle soul, but lives on her nerves. The slightest change in environment will trigger an over reactive response. _I deal with her in a very quiet, relaxed manner,_ something I have had to learn to do a I am naturally fiery and impatient. She has taught me so much and for that I am grateful.

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I'm just wondering, have you also tried to de-sensitize her? 
Crow's a somewhat nervous horse, especially when it comes to working. I think he just expect too much of himself and has a low confidense.. anyway, in the start I was careful not to move much around him, be quiet etc.. he got more and more nervous. I got the advice to just act normal and let him react on it but ignore his behaviour (of course staying away from any danger). Which made him calmer as he got used to me and appearantly me being careful and quiet just showed him there really was something dangerous to be quiet and careful around and that made him more nervous, as well as my signals and bodylanguage wasn't as steady and supportive as he needed.

It's much like a young horse exploding every time it feels the riders leg, once it has learnt that the leg will just be there and there's nothing to it, it can get nice and relaxed about it.

It's just a thought.


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## Allover (2 March 2011)

I dont think horses, or humans for that matter, are born bad. 

BUT....

When i was younger i knew of 4 geldings by the same sire, all were tricky. The one i looked after was a lovey boy but could be very quick with his legs, he was normally very good with me (not to blow my own trumpet he just was), i went on holiday for a week and when i came back another groom was trying to boot him up (this was one of his "quirks") and he was being close to dangerous, i called his name very firmly and he stopped the behaviour, 1 of the other siblings that we knew was aggressive (he was beaten as a youngster) and you could NOT trust him in the stable, he wanted to hurt you, he did trust one of the other grooms and was like a baby with her. The other one was a nappy pig who scared his owner witless with his behaviour, he took some sorting. The other one would was a darling!! 

All of the "quirks" came out because of the way the horses had been treated in their formative years, either being able to get away with too much or in the case of the aggressive one, being beaten.

All of them came good with good handling and riding though it was always in them. 

This group are just an example, there have been many more in my career where you can see how the behaviour of the horses is directly affected by the way it is handled


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## shaskeen (4 September 2011)

Had to resort to one last winter when my gelding would get excited rush through the gate past me buck swing around and rear straight up - very dangerous - so bought a chifney and never a problem since - it hangs up unused all summer - he has manners to burn - its just the winter thing

Then had problem loading a 3yo old filly on to box - she been loaded since a foal I bred her so I know - ended up having to lightly sedate her and sit on the ramp with a bucket of feed

So today tried her again same thing, put on the chifney, she half pulled back once and loaded like an angel, she got fed on there and we went back and forth all day from then on with no problem - I hope this continues but without the chifney I think we would be having continuing problems from a habit learned in less than a day

Everything has its place in the right hands


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## 'S'teamed (4 September 2011)

...


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (4 September 2011)

Whilst a Chifney might not exactly be the "natural horsemanship" choice )) - quite often with a really strong or difficult horse they are the only solution, particularly if for instance you're on a crowded showground or having to lead on the road and that's the ONLY way you're gonna get some control/respect from the horse.

Mine is a plod 99% of the time but by god when he wants to be a fruitloop he does it mega big; and can rear, buck, and behave very dangerously - and basically if its MY safety involved then sod it I'll use a Chifney to get him under control and/or teach him some respect for me. 

On Friday evening we did some groundwork - deliberately choosing a time when there were other people cantering their horses in the field outside the area where we were training. I had on a pressure halti and long rope, but no Chifney (stupidly). Predictably, he started fruitlooping around, and basically because he wasn't respecting the halti, managed to show me what he thought of me by aiming a very well placed kick - and got me right in the stomach  Bleddy horse, but if I'd had the chifney on him I don't think he would have took the P!ss like he did.


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## Illusion100 (17 January 2014)

Don't have huge experience with Chifneys but have used them in the past, mostly on very volatile horses brought into vet clinic. Personally I don't like them but they get a job done. 

However I have seen people put a Chifney bit in and still get completely and dangerously 'walked over', so I don't see a Chifney as a 'wonder cure' either. Also another very powerful build draught horse is led in and out to field with Chifney and when he feels like it, doesn't take a blind bit of notice! So I defo believe general groundwork training is also very important.

I tend to use a bit with a stallion chain attached for difficult horses, works very well....so far!! I once had my eventer on a stud farm with ID, WB and TB stallions that did natural covering, never saw a Chifney on the stallions just a bit and stallion chain. 

So all in all, Chifney bits can be completely ineffective in the wrong hands, a godsend in anothers. As far as them being dangerous is concerned, I'm not convinced a handler could break the jaw with it but if a horse was tied and had a major spaz of bolted off and stood on the rope then, yes possibly.


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## Nessa4 (17 January 2014)

pheobee said:



			WHAT?! while it was ridden!! i didn't think you could ride in them!!!!
		
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I'm sure I've seen racehorses ridden in them.


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## Elf On A Shelf (17 January 2014)

Nessa4 said:



			I'm sure I've seen racehorses ridden in them.
		
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They aren't chifney's you are seeing - they are called Dextors or ring bits. It's kind of like a small eggbut/half spoon snaffle with a big ring attached to it that goes in the mouth and out the back. It gives you better control and steering.


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## Pigeon (17 January 2014)

Never had to use one! I don't really know how they work, is the pressure released when there's no direct pressure on the bit? 

I did used to have a horse who was, well, a bit crazy, and I won't pretend for a moment he was well trained, because he wasn't, he was a delinquent  But we used a dually halter or cavesson with a snaffle on him when we knew he'd be difficult (box rest etc) so they are probably quite a good in between step.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (17 January 2014)

spotty_pony said:



			I recently saw a horse wearing one on the hunting field!  I was speechless! 

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There is a ring bit used by racehorses which gives control to the uncontrollable, that might be what he was wearing.


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## khalswitz (17 January 2014)

I see nothing wrong with using a chiffney if your horse needs it - better than them getting free, especially on busy roads/show grounds with lots of people etc. Personally, I use a stallion chain that goes under the chin/over the nose (depending on the horse) for horses that are bolshy to handle, works very well and they know they have it on, so barely need it to come into action, but I've never dealt with an on-the-ground rearer that wasn't rearing because of something specific like loading etc... in that situation, I might try a chiffney.


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## RunToEarth (17 January 2014)

for clarity, chifney: 





Dexter ring bit:






As others have said the latter are a very effective bit for ridden purposes, although I have seldom seen them outside of racing. I wouldn't advocate riding in a chifney.


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## Goldenstar (17 January 2014)

Dexters work a treat on some horses.


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## Kati*89 (17 January 2014)

We used one on Louis when we started rearing up whilst trying to load. Used it a couple of times and now he doesn't need it anymore, loads straight away in a headcollar now, at one point he was rearing and striking out at people, in what ever direction he felt..not very nice! so I think if used correctly they are very useful,he only had to put it on and feel the pressure to not try again.


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## risky business (17 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Yes I thought you weren't reading what I was writing. So I will ask the question again. 

The horse is genetically programmed to be extremely over emotional and over reactive. His father is himself described as "quirky" and throws stock with similar traits to my own.

I have spent five years improving his behaviour beyond recognition in the face of my friends questionning why I continue with him at all. He will now stay in a stable rather than climb the door. He will travel quietly as opposed to taking out the windows. He will hack out past hens that he used to insist were going to kill him. He will follow me anywhere and he cries if I leave him. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

He throws separation anxiety behaviour on loading roughly once every three months. I handle him mainly completely naked (him not me  ) most of the time and the rest in a headcollar and lead rope if we are going somewhere. The separation anxiety can occur with horses that he has only seen in a collecting ring and has no relationship with, but who he suddenly decides he is not prepared to leave.

You are so insistent that I should not need a chifney for him if only I had him properly trained. How would you retrain this horse not to need a chifney on that one time in three months?
		
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Genuine question, why is this stallion being used as a breeding horse (your horses sire) if his offspring take on such serious personality 'traits' just for a use of word? Surely a horse should only be used to breed judged on being a very good example of its breed and that means temperament/ trainability too? A few small quirks you could understand but climbing stable doors, acting dangerous when travelling and appearing to be on drugs is surely not a trait you want in any horse.


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## Goldenstar (17 January 2014)

risky business said:



			Genuine question, why is this stallion being used as a breeding horse (your horses sire) if his offspring take on such serious personality 'traits' just for a use of word? Surely a horse should only be used to breed judged on being a very good example of its breed and that means temperament/ trainability too? A few small quirks you could understand but climbing stable doors, acting dangerous when travelling and appearing to be on drugs is surely not a trait you want in any horse.
		
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Probally because it could run fast ( TB ) or jump very high or piaffe as easily as it breaths 
In particularily the TB performance is what people are after in a stallion.


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## Billy the kid (17 January 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			Another parelli dually fluffy bunny by any chance? 
I use chifneys, gags, spurs, draw reins, standing martingales and two reins on horses. I must be one of the most evil people going- but my horses are all happy...
		
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^^This.

I also must be an evil, terrible owner- with happy horses.


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## amandap (17 January 2014)

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/bunnydance.gif


Oh heck, image wont work!


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## RunToEarth (17 January 2014)

Chifney asides, who dragged up a 3 year old thread?!


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## Dumbo (17 January 2014)

Hate them! They are brutal and the thoughtless way to get a horse to do as you like. I strongly believe that to inflict pain should not be the way to do things. 
Patience and plenty of ground work is the best way. 

My horse can be a stubborn so and so at times and any one else would have him in a chifney often but he will always do what I ask him to when I have clearly explained and given him time without inflicting pain.


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## Sleipnir (17 January 2014)

Would never use one. And, yes, I know how an impossible-to-lead rearing-in-hand horse feels - even they can be helped with enough patience and groundwork. But patience is usually what people lack.


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## Meems (17 January 2014)

I am 99.9% sure I HAVE seen racehorses going to the gallops for training in them.   I used to have to stop in my car quite often in the mornings to let them ride past to get to the Downs, and on a few occasions I noticed the odd one wearing one.    As the horse in question was so close, tossing it's head about and opening it's mouth, I could quite clearly see the shape of the Chifney which is different to the Dextor one.    

I don't pretend to know anything about racing but always believed Chifneys were only ever to use for leading, never for riding.


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## Walrus (17 January 2014)

AndySpooner said:



			Wow, all these 'dangerous' horses. Sounds like some training all round would be a better solution than yet another harsh piece of tack.
		
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The chifney WAS the training with my horse - brought in everyday for a week wearing a chifney after he went through a toddler tantrum phase of pushing his luck as a baby and rearing and trying to leg it from the field to his haynet. He's never needed it since.

I now keep mine in the lorry - my theory being if there was ever an emergency and i had to unload on a road  / in a not nice situation i would put this on over his headcollar just to be on the safe side.


Oh crikey - didn't realise this was from 2011!!!


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## poiuytrewq (17 January 2014)

I use them on a regular basis- ie, daily 
They are amazing. Part of my job is leading fit big TB's out on the road and I use a chifney to do so. 99% of the time the horse behaves perfectly, just knowing its there is enough. The same horse could be led out in a bridle or headcollar and be a danger to myself or other road users.
Personally I wouldn't ever use one to turn out in as I have a phobia of the horse somehow pulling away and running round with a chifney in! (just one of those random thoughts that pings into your head and will never leave!)


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## poiuytrewq (17 January 2014)

Meems said:



			I am 99.9% sure I HAVE seen racehorses going to the gallops for training in them.   I used to have to stop in my car quite often in the mornings to let them ride past to get to the Downs, and on a few occasions I noticed the odd one wearing one.    As the horse in question was so close, tossing it's head about and opening it's mouth, I could quite clearly see the shape of the Chifney which is different to the Dextor one.    

I don't pretend to know anything about racing but always believed Chifneys were only ever to use for leading, never for riding.
		
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We have one at work, I don't know the name of it that looks totally like a chifney but its not- They are only ever used to lead in the two racing yards I work in.


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## fburton (17 January 2014)

pastie2 said:



			You should lead a TB stallion out to cover a mare in anything other than a chifney and see how dangerous that can be for the mare and the handler.
		
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I have, I didn't use a chifney and it wasn't any more or less dangerous than any of the other non-TB stallions I have handled covering mares. So I don't think your generalisation is valid, sorry.


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## scarymare (17 January 2014)

poiuytrewq said:



			I use them on a regular basis- ie, daily 
They are amazing. Part of my job is leading fit big TB's out on the road and I use a chifney to do so. 99% of the time the horse behaves perfectly, just knowing its there is enough. The same horse could be led out in a bridle or headcollar and be a danger to myself or other road users.
Personally I wouldn't ever use one to turn out in as I have a phobia of the horse somehow pulling away and running round with a chifney in! (just one of those random thoughts that pings into your head and will never leave!)
		
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Totally agree.  I have one in my tack room and use it whenever I need to.  For example if I needed to fetch in my huge WB broody in a gale (heaven forbid).  The thing is that I wouldn't need to use pressure anyway, they know when its on and then behave.  I do turn out in them too.  Vital part of any horseman's toolkit.


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## MerrySherryRider (17 January 2014)

Interesting thread, particularly as it hadn't occurred to me that some vets use them on all horses. It's good to be aware of the possibility. Fortunately, I haven't come across one that does, so far.
 Having liveried on a few stud yards and eventing yards, I haven't seen one used there either. The only times, I've encountered them is with DIY novice owners with all the gear and no idea. Its not a good combination. 

I'm not anti chefney's, just anti idiots. They're fine for professionals who have limited time to get the routine work  done safely but as with any piece of kit, they should be used for a reason and be reassessed as appropriate.

I'd like the sale of chifney's limited to those who can demonstrate how to use one and when. Or be instructed prior to sale. Similarly with all training aids, spurs, harsh bits and any form of restraint.


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## RunToEarth (17 January 2014)

Sleipnir said:



			Would never use one. And, yes, I know how an impossible-to-lead rearing-in-hand horse feels - even they can be helped with enough patience and groundwork. But patience is usually what people lack.
		
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I've used them frequently when at county shows to get horses off the lorry and into the stables safely. Environments like that, especially when a horse isn't used to such a large show, can cause all kinds of issues - you just don't know how they are going to react. I would rather lead out in a chifney than risk a dangerous situation for myself and others.


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## Sleipnir (17 January 2014)

I understand the reasoning, but I'd rather prefer conditioning a horse to such environment at a slower pace than choosing to use this piece of tack. Not trying to change anyone's ways though.  After all, you actually can never know how they are going to react to anything, especially, if the horse is more of a flighty one. If someone finds a chifney the only way how to stay safe - so be it, as long as they know how to use it properly.


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## amandap (17 January 2014)

Sleipnir said:



			I understand the reasoning, but I'd rather prefer conditioning a horse to such environment at a slower pace than choosing to use this piece of tack.
		
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Actually I think this is one aspect that is often not considered. Also what some have to do eg. lead horses down duel carriageways to get to the field really does raise questions about suitability of facilities for me!


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## windand rain (17 January 2014)

Hate chiffneys with a vengeance never had one on the yard and never wanted to use one but each to their own probably by good management but with a bit of good luck thrown in Every horse I have handled has learned to respect its handler and that includes everything from colts and stallions to large event horses and native ponies. Never had a horse you couldnt lead down a busy road on a ribbon had you chosen to do so. Having said that they have been high spirited and will bounce along on a loose lead like a rocking horse on occasion  but never too near or too close to their handler


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## Goldenstar (17 January 2014)

I don't use chiffneys but totally understand why you might as an employer have a you always lead the stallion or x horse in the chifney rule .
One of our hunters  arrived very very naughty to lead a complete and utter badly mannered prat if he was say a showjumper having to be ledabout at show  in public in strange environments I could totally understand even although now hes very well mannered why you might say to staff always lead him in the chifney then you would have done everything you could to ensure nothing unexpected happened .


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## RunToEarth (17 January 2014)

amandap said:



			Actually I think this is one aspect that is often not considered. Also what some have to do eg. lead horses down duel carriageways to get to the field really does raise questions about suitability of facilities for me!
		
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I do try and introduce scary atmospheres as much as possible, but there does seem to be a big leap from agricultural shows to county level and it is something that is very difficult to recreate at home, which is why I often stick a chifney in just to be on the safe side. 

I would agree with you RE facilities - I often read posts on here about horrible situations people have to hack/lead past/over/down and I think I would have been moving!


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## Lucyad (17 January 2014)

It's all pressure and release at the end of the day, and the reason that they work is because, when applied, they are painful or uncomfortable to the horse.  Just the same as a dually, or what I use when required for my horse, a thin nylon rope halter knotted to apply pressure on his nose, so I don't see much of a difference here between the equipment when the principle of negative reinforcement still applies? (Can understand objections from those who use solely positive). 

He is trained to lead nicely in a normal headcollar / rope around his neck (or even follow loose!), but he is getting walked in hand while on  box rest / small paddock rest just now recovering from a fractured leg, and is a bit bouncier than usual!  He uses his nose as a lever to pull against you hence the knotted halter works well, but for safety, if it didn't, I would use anything it took to remain in control (too much bouncing about or god forbid getting loose would NOT be good for his leg!).


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## Tiddlypom (17 January 2014)

I normally have no problem with using a piece of kit if necessary, but the thought of using a chifney gives me the willies! It must be so easy for it to accidentally get caught on something whilst in use, and then break the horse's jaw, or worse.


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## Bestdogdash (17 January 2014)

Try find a racing yard without them. It is dangerous for the stable staff to lead a race fit horse around without one. I think it is an essential piece of kit for any yard. If the horse is well behaved, it makes no difference if it is wearing one and if it misbehaves then it is quickly brought under control. In my whole career as a P2P jockey and racehorse owner, and now eventing,I have never seen a horse injured by one. I can't believe the many bleeding hearts on this thread. I would never lead any of my exceptionally well trained and perfectly behaved horses across a busy lorry park into strange stables without one on - and neither do many other race horse trainers of other professionals either.


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## wicklowrider (23 July 2015)

I school rearers, buckers,ext. I sometimes use them when riding but not for everyday or hunting


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## Elf On A Shelf (23 July 2015)

wicklowrider said:



			I school rearers, buckers,ext. I sometimes use them when riding but not for everyday or hunting
		
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You ride with one?!?!?!?!?!


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## twiggy2 (23 July 2015)

EKW said:



			You ride with one?!?!?!?!?!
		
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THIS


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## crabbymare (23 July 2015)

Schools out??? one thing for sure is that its highly likely someone has either got their bits mixed up or they have an interesting way of riding


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## elliefiz (24 July 2015)

AndySpooner said:



			Wow, all these 'dangerous' horses. Sounds like some training all round would be a better solution than yet another harsh piece of tack.
		
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This 100%. Another gadget used to disguise bad handling and training. We have a yard of racehorses, they legally have to wear chifneys at the sales or at race courses but they are all damned well trained enough to not actually need one and nothing would wear one at home. If your horse is bad to lead, unsafe to handle and one feels that they can't deal with it without resorting to a chifney then maybe get a professional in to sort the problem out.


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## pip6 (24 July 2015)

I've seen a photo of a group VII rider actually riding in one (no it wasn't a dexter). But then I've seen a rider from said group riding with an upside down Pelham with the chain across the nose. An these are meant to be equine people by tradition.


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## touchstone (24 July 2015)

Hmmm, controversial threads being resurrected from years ago, definitely the summer break!


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## LCH611 (24 July 2015)

we had a pony that could be really naughty to load as he had absolutely mastered the art of suddenly tanking off and although only 14hh he could get away from even experienced & strong men handling him. He consequently used to have a chifney on, with a very short rope attached to it so it couldn't get caught in anything. One very small tweak on it and then being lead from his usual rope attached to his headcollar, always did the trick and he was angelic. It was far safer for all concerned to do that then lose him down the road trying to load after hunting!


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## unicornystar (24 July 2015)

My little old welsh D pays no attention to the chifney whatsoever, he and other horses have responded well to the dually headcollars, the chifney they just totally ignore!!


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## ilvpippa (24 July 2015)

I used one once or twice hand walking off 6 months of box rest. I know only have to use a bridle - which she actually can react way more too. She's a rearer so the lead rope goes through both but rings - she has a tantrum then realises she's the one putting the pressure on then is fine; had a similar effect with the chifney


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## Pinkvboots (24 July 2015)

This is prehistoric this thread!


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## Wideyes (4 September 2016)

I've seen a lot leave the chifney on racers. They use them to lead the exited horse out, but just leave it loose in the mouth for the race and use a bit that's also in the mouth. So it's double bitted really. Not a fan at all.


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## Wideyes (4 September 2016)

It's just left hanging. it's not used to ride in. they have both the chifney and a normal bit in at the same time. I'm not a fan


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