# What could be causing on/off lameness



## mariebx19 (19 June 2015)

My 7 year old cob has had lameness problems for a while now.He has been seen by a few different vets who either say he is fine,or notices slight lameness and say it is nothing worrying and the best thing would be to keep him in work and give him some bute.To begin with i just put it down to behavioural problems.He will go months being good under saddle and seems to enjoy work then he will refuse to move/bolt/buck and just look uncomfortable so he gets turned away for a couple months,get another vet out before working him again and they say he is fine and enjoys work for a while before refusing to move etc again.The farrier said he was stiff on his back left (wasnt keeping it up) the last vet said front end and a physio said back right :/ When i got him,he used to try and kick me when i picked up his back right or went near it (i just thought this was behavioural but now thinking it could be related) He hates to work in the right rein and when being ridden/lunged will just turn to go left.He also trips occasionally ,mainly in trot and after jumps.Just wondering where do i go from here? What test would be best to try first? Going to share videos and hoping someone can pinpoint an area or something to start working with.

https://youtu.be/PiviIX1TaQI
https://youtu.be/WxwhIzsb3ps
https://youtu.be/VqOOo-97Ig0


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## BethH (19 June 2015)

He is short and stiff behind and seems to work out of the obvious lameness once he starts moving, looks back right to me.  Is your vet a decent equine vet as I think a lameness work up would show an issue.  He may have something like a spavin starting to niggle or back issue both of which can cause mild on and off lameness but he isn't really working behind I suspect he is bi-laterally lame which mask the extent of the problem but you are right he is not sound.  If it is a touch of arthritis it is best to keep him working sympathetically but I would be looking for a proper diagnosis as you may be able to nip something in the bud.  In terms of physio is the person you use any good?  Might be worth getting a Mctimony chiro to give him a once over.  Good luck let us know how you get on.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (19 June 2015)

Yep, he is stiff Rt rein and probably not correct on the other.
If he were lunged on a hard surface this would be more evident.
I don't think that physio alone will help, he looks a willing type but has problems. His stride is always choppy, which may be due to conformation, but I think he should work better than this.
I think you will end up having to have a full work up at a vet horspital. 
If your own vets have been given the oportunity to examine him and have effectively dismissed it, I would want him to go where they have full facilities, a full on equine vet practice.
I hope you have him insured, if not you have to determine how much you can afford to pay for a diagnosis.
He is only 7, and it is very disapointing that he has these problems, but until you know what you are dealing with you really can't go further forward.
Plenty of turnout is indicated, also can you get a little bit of weight off him?


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## Goldenstar (19 June 2015)

You need a specialist equine vet to do a lameness work up I would suspect there's more than one thing wrong with him , this horse is young and you need to a diagnosis as soon as you can as you risk contributing to permanent damage if you don't .


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## FfionWinnie (19 June 2015)

Does he improve or worsen with exercise?

He's looks to be at least 100kgs over weight, which I'm afraid won't be helping anything.


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## Wagtail (19 June 2015)

He is bilaterally lame behind, though the right hind is worse than the left. There is a lot of pain going on there and I would not be riding him. He is dragging both toes, not flexing his hocks and he has a reduced stride length/hind leg differential. I would suspect anything from the hocks upwards. Possibly more than one issue. If I were to have a guess, I would say PSD and sacroilliac dysfunction with possibly some back pain too. As others have said, get him a full lameness work up. Is he insured for vet fees? Because I have a feeling that nerve blocks would not be conclusive.


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## mariebx19 (19 June 2015)

He has been seen by a massage therapist about 4 or 5 times and she always says he is tight around the back end,back and neck and after her session is more relaxed,not sure if still lame or not but does hold himself better.Yeah the physio is probably the most recommended one near me.Vets (from 3 different vets) have been out and never really take it further.He actually isnt insured (wish i had insured him now) so would like to start with something that hopefully isnt going to cost thousands.Dont even know if the vet will do anything until i have the money or at least most of it,will need to phone and discuss it all.Yeah is on 24/7 turnout.I have actually tried getting weight off him but hard with him  not being in work,will be buying a grazing muzzle this week and hopefully he will keep it on.I cant always see lameness but going by his behaviour he worsens with exercise.After being turned away and brought back into work,he is working fine and willing then weeks/months later he starts not wanting to working so i guess that is due to pain.He isnt getting worked at all,hasnt since a few weeks after they riding viddeos were made.Thinking of sending the vets these videos and go from there.He is also the biggest wimp ever and and used to bolt away when being led and would worry that he would do that coming off a trailer at the vets and both are so close to busy roads so hoping to start with what can be done at the yard.Do you think a scan of the hocks would be best to start?


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## FfionWinnie (19 June 2015)

I meant in a single session does he improve or worsen.


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## mariebx19 (19 June 2015)

found this video of him (this was before i got him) just wondering what yous think of him in this one?
https://youtu.be/CzcYE71C4TE


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## mariebx19 (19 June 2015)

im not too sure actually been so long since he has been ridden.after being started agiain as sooon as he shows pain/discomfort i stop the work so up to that point he is good.His lameness doesnt always seem so easy to tell to me though so maybe when being ridden he is slightly lame but works through the pain (which is really horrible to think of)


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## Wagtail (19 June 2015)

mariebx19 said:



			He has been seen by a massage therapist about 4 or 5 times and she always says he is tight around the back end,back and neck and after her session is more relaxed,not sure if still lame or not but does hold himself better.Yeah the physio is probably the most recommended one near me.Vets (from 3 different vets) have been out and never really take it further.He actually isnt insured (wish i had insured him now) so would like to start with something that hopefully isnt going to cost thousands.Dont even know if the vet will do anything until i have the money or at least most of it,will need to phone and discuss it all.Yeah is on 24/7 turnout.I have actually tried getting weight off him but hard with him  not being in work,will be buying a grazing muzzle this week and hopefully he will keep it on.I cant always see lameness but going by his behaviour he worsens with exercise.After being turned away and brought back into work,he is working fine and willing then weeks/months later he starts not wanting to working so i guess that is due to pain.He isnt getting worked at all,hasnt since a few weeks after they riding viddeos were made.Thinking of sending the vets these videos and go from there.He is also the biggest wimp ever and and used to bolt away when being led and would worry that he would do that coming off a trailer at the vets and both are so close to busy roads so hoping to start with what can be done at the yard.Do you think a scan of the hocks would be best to start?
		
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I think an ultrasound scan of the hock ligaments would be a very good place to start as it's relatively cheap. I know someone who sent their horse to a top Equine hospital and he had all kinds of investigations including a bone scan and costing around £8k over 3 weeks. Now this was top of the range investigations and expertise. But they found he had PSD after nearly 3 weeks and that was diagnosed by ultrasound, the cheapest of all the diagnostic tools they used. I sometimes think these places purposely string out these investigations, profiting from livery and exercising the horses to produce the lameness in order to make the most money possible from insured equines.


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## mariebx19 (19 June 2015)

Not sure if they are any good but here are a few standing pictures to see his conformation.When at rest he does change what back feet he balances on alot of the time.Thanks think i will start with that,do you know if that can be done at my yard? or is it just depending on the vet


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## mariebx19 (19 June 2015)

would thermal imaging be any good?


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## mariebx19 (19 June 2015)

Dont think he had any heat or inflammation when the vet was out


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## Exploding Chestnuts (19 June 2015)

I'd expect a good vet to diagnose on day one, the horse is not sound at the moment so no way would it need to be kept at livery for three weeks, a trip to horspital is required.


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## Wagtail (19 June 2015)

I can't believe that three vets found nothing! It is obvious within seconds that the horse is not sound. In answer to your question, many good equine practices have ultrasound machines that they can take to your yard. Mine do. It is inexpensive to do. I hope you get some answers, OP. I know it is very stressful when you know something is wrong but no one is taking it seriously.


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## mariebx19 (19 June 2015)

They either say nothing or the last one said he was slightly lame but could be due to laminitis and just gave enough bute for 5 days and said to keep him in work.Hopefully the vet will come out even though he isnt insured and i wont have all the money but give them a call and dicuss it all with them.


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## shergar (19 June 2015)

mariebx19 said:



			Dont think he had any heat or inflammation when the vet was out
		
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Thermal imaging will show you where  there this any inflammation ,and it is not very expensive ,I have used it in the past and would use it again.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 June 2015)

mariebx19 said:



			They either say nothing or the last one said he was slightly lame but could be due to laminitis and just gave enough bute for 5 days and said to keep him in work.Hopefully the vet will come out even though he isnt insured and i wont have all the money but give them a call and dicuss it all with them.
		
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Use a good equine practice and get a proper diagnosis, it is quite likely to be expensive, but you have little choice.  Do that or stop riding him altogether.
Either way get some weight off him.


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## CBAnglo (20 June 2015)

I know this sounds horrible but if it takes a while for the lameness to come back after a period of rest then I would continue to work the horse otherwise he will be "sound" for the work up.  I made this mistake with one of mine so when he was seen by 3 different vets, they all said sound (after he had had 6 weeks off).  So I had to continue working him (stopping short of the full bronking sessions) until he was booked into AHT.  At that point the lameness was very visible.

Excess weight won't help and you risk being dismissed as a laminitis case without a full proper work up.


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## BethH (20 June 2015)

Also if you tell us what area you in, someone on here maybe able to recommend a good equine practice & chiro's etc as you are clearly not getting the help & expertise you need from your current vet.  Your horse is clearly struggling but doing his best to be helpful, he seems a very nice person but looked lame to me even in the video from his previous owner, he looks more fluid though and has clearly stiffened up since then.  

A massage therapist won't be able to get to the root of the problem, my chiro works with the vet so she can talk to him about what she is finding.  There are lots of good practitioners out there who can help you, hopefully someone on here will know a good person for you.  Fingers crossed you get it sorted.


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## mariebx19 (20 June 2015)

It is the most recommended vet i use.Ones near me are county vets,mckenzie bryson and marshall and barr and macmillan.He hasnt been ridden for a good few months and in no rush to start him again but just want it sorted now so i know he isnt in any pain.Not sure if i would like to ride him but might try if it would be more noticeable,not sure though.Will be buying a grazing muzzle for him.Was planning on buying one to get some weight off him then try again with small hacks through the woods at the yard and see how he went but since everyone is saying there is definately something there dont think i will anymore.


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## Gloi (20 June 2015)

I don't think he looks sound in the old video you posted of him before you got him.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 June 2015)

There is an equine clinic with full facilities 20 miles from you.
We may be getting the wrong impression here, if the vet was called to see your horse with the proviso that you could not spend any money on further diagnostics there would be a limit to what they can do.
However, if they suggested the horse might have laminitis, and said no  more that that, I would be astounded.


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## Michen (20 June 2015)

Oh OP i feel for your it's never nice. I agree with the earlier poster saying to keep him in some kind of work so that the lameness is apparent (if he looks better when he's rested). Good luck and lesson learnt- if you don't have a few k sitting in the bank (or a credit card) for emergency vet bills or even non emergency ones like this, insure your horse. It will give you piece of mind.


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## Tiarella (20 June 2015)

Did you get him vetted??

He look dreadfully lame then, let alone now.


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## Michen (20 June 2015)

mariebx19 said:



			Not sure if they are any good but here are a few standing pictures to see his conformation.When at rest he does change what back feet he balances on alot of the time.Thanks think i will start with that,do you know if that can be done at my yard? or is it just depending on the vet


























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OP btw, my 8 year old had hock spavin. He passed flexions of both hinds and had lameness that blocked the hoof. However as he was not in work and (I assume) his hocks got stiffer, he started to switch between which back leg he was resting at least once a minute. Then he became almost impossible to pick out his back feet. Bone scan, hock x rays showed the spavin- albiet mild.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 June 2015)

Michen said:



			Oh OP i feel for your it's never nice. I agree with the earlier poster saying to keep him in some kind of work so that the lameness is apparent (if he looks better when he's rested). Good luck and lesson learnt- if you don't have a few k sitting in the bank (or a credit card) for emergency vet bills or even non emergency ones like this, insure your horse. It will give you piece of mind.
		
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It will be too late, the horse has a pre existing condition, as evidenced by videos and vet examinations. This will be excluded, and it pretty much means vet insurance will cover very little.


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## Michen (20 June 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			It will be too late, the horse has a pre existing condition, as evidenced by videos and vet examinations. This will be excluded, and it pretty much means vet insurance will cover very little.
		
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For this condition, but in the future with another horse and to cover this one for any accidents/injuries. If he was to run through a fence in the field and it required a fairly hefty bill then unless you are willing to have the horse put down rather than spend the money to fix it, you need to either be insured or have a credit card/funds available.


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## mariebx19 (20 June 2015)

Bonkers2-Not too sure what you mean but i have not told the vets that he isnt insured.Will be phoning on monday and hopefully they can give me an estimate on prices but asked a couple of months ago and i got a reply saying they couldnt tell me as it depends on what joint etc is needing x-rayd.

Yeah i will have him in work for a week or 2 before he is to be seen again,depends on what they say about a payment plan.I know,all my pets will definately be insured now.Just heard too many people say that they didnt get the help from insurance company when needed so put me off.No i didnt have him vetted.Just been looking up on bone spavin in hock and does sound like that but i suppose most things causing lameness could have the same symptoms.Do you think i should try light hacking on soft ground (because being kept in work is best for this) or just leave him on turnout as i dont know what the cause of his pain/lameness is ?


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## Michen (20 June 2015)

D



mariebx19 said:



			Bonkers2-Not too sure what you mean but i have not told the vets that he isnt insured.Will be phoning on monday and hopefully they can give me an estimate on prices but asked a couple of months ago and i got a reply saying they couldnt tell me as it depends on what joint etc is needing x-rayd.

Yeah i will have him in work for a week or 2 before he is to be seen again,depends on what they say about a payment plan.I know,all my pets will definately be insured now.Just heard too many people say that they didnt get the help from insurance company when needed so put me off.No i didnt have him vetted.Just been looking up on bone spavin in hock and does sound like that but i suppose most things causing lameness could have the same symptoms.Do you think i should try light hacking on soft ground (because being kept in work is best for this) or just leave him on turnout as i dont know what the cause of his pain/lameness is ?
		
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Really tricky one. I would probably be inclined to work him 3/4 days before the vet comes every day. But if he still looks lame now, having been at rest, then obviously there is no need as the vet has something to see. But I am no expert- perhaps worth consulting your vet. 

Good luck and do have a chat with your vet re payment. I owed my vets about a grand for various excesses, livery fees, non insurance stuff and they were totally fab about it. Infact they point blank refused to take it all at once and said it was fine I could pay bits of it off monthly.

Edited to say I had my 200 pound off the track tb insured via petplan. They've paid out nearing 10k for him. You only need a vetting if the horse is valued over a certain anount(usually 2.5k ish) though of course they will not pay for a problem that has occurred in the past. People can have rubbish experiences with insurance conpanies and theres a lot to be said for setting aside money every month as an emergency fund but I personally think it is important for piece of mind. I'd hate to hve to put a horse down because I couldn't afford colic treatment for instance.


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## mariebx19 (21 June 2015)

Yeah will speak to vet about everything.Really,one of my sisters dogs had to be taken to vets,out of hours,they were wanting £600 for an x-ray but we waited till the next morning and she was back to herself.Vet cost just over £200 (for consultation and painkiller and anti inflammatory injection) and i was £21 short and i couldnt pay for another 3 weeks and now they wont visit or even give phone advice unless i have the money for what they will be coming out for even though you usually have a month to pay vet bills.Yeah going to insure all my pets now,wish i had to begin with,thanks


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 June 2015)

I think insurance is a big cost, not advising anyone against it at all, but in the last 12 years I have owned one pony and 2 cats, my total vet  insurance bills would have been £5,000.
I have had one horse bill which might have been eligible about £500, no eligible cat bills.
As I am not insured I am very particular about animals in my care [the horse bill was due to yard recklessness].
I have a full on medical kit and keep tetanus up to date.
I don't think I have been particularly lucky, but just average, its a lot of money, and one can never be insured for life for any condition which has been diagnosed, and exclusions can be illogical, this is the reason I don't insure, I think I would probably have a cat put down if one got ill as it is getting on now.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 June 2015)

I am trying to put myself in OPs shoes, assuming she has not enough money to send him to the vet clinic at Turningshaw she should identify the best senior vet from her own vet practice [I will  pm her], I don't know them all, but the one who gave the bute for 5 days and no further advice is one to avoid, as are the ones who could not identify chronic lameness in this cob.
Perhaps OP could get a part time job to increase her funds.
Even with a diagnosis, where do we go from there, this is the problem.
If he is shod, I would say remove shoes to save money, but give him a small feed of Fast Firbe and some salt for minerals, top up with some minerals. In winter add micronised linseed.
I would walk out in hand to try to get weight off, I would not ride him, he is in pain all the time, it just gets to the point he can't tolerate it.


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## Michen (21 June 2015)

B



mariebx19 said:



			Yeah will speak to vet about everything.Really,one of my sisters dogs had to be taken to vets,out of hours,they were wanting £600 for an x-ray but we waited till the next morning and she was back to herself.Vet cost just over £200 (for consultation and painkiller and anti inflammatory injection) and i was £21 short and i couldnt pay for another 3 weeks and now they wont visit or even give phone advice unless i have the money for what they will be coming out for even though you usually have a month to pay vet bills.Yeah going to insure all my pets now,wish i had to begin with,thanks
		
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Hmmmm not sure what to suggest then. You could get a credit card or you could try turning him away for a few months on as bare a paddock as possible. Insurance is hit and miss, I had a pony insured for 6 years at 45 pounds a month without a single claim. Torres was in near double figures after 7 months at 30 quid a month! Personally I just think if you don't hve access to cash instantly then it's responsible to insure. Good luck op hope he comes good zxx


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## Pearlsasinger (21 June 2015)

I haven't been able to see all your vids - which is the fault of my machine/system, not your fault OP.  However, from what I have managed to see, I think that your problem stems from the saddle, which could explain why the problem improves after a period of time off work and then gets worse while he is worked.  Your horse has big shoulders and his saddle seems to sit on them which won't help but the major problem is that he appears to dip his back away from the saddle as his RH comes forward in trot and in the side-on view the cantle has excessive movement.
Have you had the saddle fit checked?


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## mariebx19 (21 June 2015)

Yeah im going to get everything you would need in a first aid kit for my cats,dogs and horses.The past month or 2 i have had 5 visits from different vets to my 2 horses because they had a cough and runny nose (first time one was given pain and anti inflammatories) for them to finally tell me they just had a cold and dont give anything,just give it time to go away itself.Also 2 visits because my youngest has a lump on his shoulder.The vet that has came out recently isnt on the website so she must be new.I might try county vets.He isnt shod and will start in hand walks with him through the woods at the yard so it isnt on hard ground.Gates were left open to their field so all the horses got into another one which doesnt have as much grass,think the yard owner is happy for them to be kept in there but will still get a grazing muzzle,hate leaving anything on them out in the field but it looks like it will come off easily if he gets caught.


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## ester (21 June 2015)

No point in paying for Physio if there are underlying problems going on- and he will be stiff because he will be compensating and holding his muscles differently. He needs a full work up by an experienced equine vet.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 June 2015)

ETA.  - as apparently I ran out of time!
Have now managed to see your vids and still think the root of your problem is the saddle, which is causing muscle damage.  When on the lunge without a rider the RH dip is not so pronounced but is still there.  What did your massage therapist say about the muscles under and around the saddle?  What happens if you run your hand with a firm pressure along the back?  Around the ribs?


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## mariebx19 (21 June 2015)

I only bought the saddle a few months ago and had it checked before using it.The leading and lunging video is before i got the saddle.The physio was also a few months ago.He doesnt react at all to pressure around his back/ribs.The back was never a big problem with tight muscles when the massage therapist has seen him.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 June 2015)

Well I would get a 2nd opinion on the saddle.  Even if there is an underlying problem, I think your saddle is exacerbating it.


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## mariebx19 (21 June 2015)

He is out of work,has been for a couple of months and probably will be for a long time.If this is the saddle i still have when he is back in work then of course it would be checked before.


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## mega spoilt ponies (22 June 2015)

Stiff on right rein, dragging hind toes, unhappy lifting right hind.... All signs of gastric ulcers. It may be that there is a low grade lameness and associated ulcers. (E.g stumbling is often indicative of navicular issues) navicular and ulcers often come together


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## mariebx19 (22 June 2015)

I spoke to the vet the last time about gastric ulcers and she said there is very little chance of him having them as he is not in hard work,doesnt have hard feed and is on 24/7 turnout.He never reacts to hoof testers,farrier said his feet are in great condition and he doesnt look like the type to have navicular.


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## mega spoilt ponies (22 June 2015)

HHHHmmm my vet said the same thing.... my horse turned out to have grade 4 gastric ulcers. (fatty, out 24/7, no feed, not worked!).


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## mariebx19 (22 June 2015)

really...will make sure to ask again if she thinks it is either of them.What are you doing for it?


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## Narnia (23 June 2015)

My horse Welsh cob x pretty much looks the same as this. Not a lot to see but vet suspected spavin, common at around 7 yrs. He suggested I ride him until there was something more to see or they could work him up to full lameness for me. As he's great out hacking and the problem is in the school, I did not fancy possibly getting a completely broken horse back, so I went for the first option. That was 2 years ago. I would say he has got worse in the school 'though, reluctant to go forward and canter on one rein so I just do a little bit of walk & slow trot in there once a week for 15 mins which seems to help. Shame as I was hoping to show him. I suspect there's still not enough for the vet to see and, as I love hacking and he still comes back sprightly after 12 miles, I'm letting the sleeping dog lie. If you can't afford a full investigation, I would avoid doing things which aggravate the problem (if you know what they are) and, when he's feeling rough, time off, bute and gentle return to exercise when you see an improvement. I previously had a coloured horse with a hip/ligament injury (fully diagnosed) who also presented a similar picture and his condition would flare up occasionally and I nursed him along for years in the same way. Enjoy the good times while you can! He looks a real sweetheart.


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## mariebx19 (23 June 2015)

Yeah im thinking more towards that from hearing symptoms and watching videos with horses with it.Should have the money for x-rays in no time just depends on everything else (wether he is seen at the vets/yard,medication) he is completely out of work right now and wouldnt mind if he could never be ridden again,or even a few days light hacking round the woods that have just opened up at the yard,going to take him in hand walk round them for the first time tomorrow.Thanks,Yeah he really is


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## ester (23 June 2015)

Tbf I do think the op's horse has plenty to see already.


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## Michen (23 June 2015)

mariebx19 said:



			Yeah im thinking more towards that from hearing symptoms and watching videos with horses with it.Should have the money for x-rays in no time just depends on everything else (wether he is seen at the vets/yard,medication) he is completely out of work right now and wouldnt mind if he could never be ridden again,or even a few days light hacking round the woods that have just opened up at the yard,going to take him in hand walk round them for the first time tomorrow.Thanks,Yeah he really is 

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Very lucky horse


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## mariebx19 (25 June 2015)

Thanks


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## mariebx19 (1 July 2015)

This was domino today.Brought him in and lunged him to see how he was after months of being turned away.He still avoided the right rein (would just turn to try to work on the left rein) just wondering what people think? is he still lame? is there anything i could give him for pain until he can be seen by vet?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (1 July 2015)

You really need a plan of action, how much are you willing to pay to find out the problem and then what would you do.
As an aside, you really need to keep a big cash reserve for vet bills, I have made suggestions about gettting a second job, did sister pay back money for the doggy vet bill?
The only thing I can suggest is that you walk in hand 30 mins on a road every day.
No one can diagnose a lameness or a soundness from that clip, nor should they try to be honest.


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## ester (1 July 2015)

Can't really see anything in that vid OP. 

He is worringly overweight though. 

A cash reserve or a 0% credit card bonkers


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## mariebx19 (3 July 2015)

Vet got back to me and x-ray to the hock is only going to be £124 for 4 photos so think im going to start with x-ray to the right hind hock as i really think that is the one that is causing pain,then i have extra for travel,sedation and medication.Going to order a grazing muzzle tonight,was just wondering what people think of this one? Stupid question but is it breathable enough?


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## ester (3 July 2015)

I can highly recommend the shires deluxe one  I have had to add a couple of bits of extra fleece but it stays on and mostly doesn't rub.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/2718...1=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ff19=0


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## mariebx19 (6 July 2015)

Got to wait at least 3 days for it to come through.Can it be left on 24/7 ? Should i get him used to it gradually ?


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