# I’m not sure what to think….



## Mistletoeandawine (12 February 2022)

Just came across this, I know it’s DM but I’m conflicted…. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rse-branch-TEN-times-make-water-obstacle.html


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## MotherOfChickens (12 February 2022)

My instructor did this to my pony when I was about 11, my Exmoor hated muddy ditches. I got off, led my pony away and never went back. I met him again when he examined my Stage 3 lol.

Again we will get that ‘worse happens elsewhere’ as though that justifies it. I am just a bit disappointed that a great horseman like him can’t come up with a better way of getting a reluctant horse over an obstacle. 
I do think that the advent of everyone having a camera might change the way we train horses-either that or we will have the privilege taken away.


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## stangs (12 February 2022)

Was just about to make a thread about this.

It's abuse, pure and simple. Cruel, painful, unethical, unacceptable, and will have made the horse's opinion of water much worse - so not even a 'good' training technique.


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## ArklePig (12 February 2022)

I don't see what's to be conflicted about to be honest. It's a disgusting way to treat any sentient being.


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## SaddlePsych'D (12 February 2022)

There's no conflict here. It's completely out of order.


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## BatHorse (12 February 2022)

Completely unacceptable, that's no way to train a horse, or treat any animal


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## mini_b (12 February 2022)

You’d think being as good as he was he would have a better method for getting a less keen horse into water.

shameful. I read the comments and as a “horsey person” I’m embarrassed to be honest.

i am lucky in that I’ve never trained with anyone that’s made me have to be an advocate for my horse. I would have told sir mark to eff off that day I think.


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## Equi (12 February 2022)

Oh dear. He’s made it so far in the equestrian world now he’s done. He really should know better this is unacceptable.


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## SEL (12 February 2022)

The microcob hates going through water and mud. Pre her injury I was donning my wellies and practising leading her through it with praise and reward. I don't think beating her with a stick would change her view of it but polos might.

I seriously hope people who train this way will rethink now they know it's at risk of appearing in public.


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## Apercrumbie (12 February 2022)

God that was a shocking, and ultimately hugely disappointing watch. I don't think that horse will have a much better opinion of water after that treatment.


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## AFishOutOfWater (12 February 2022)

Utterly abhorrent behaviour and ultimately a lazy, pointless way of 'training' that will cause horse and ride far more issues in the long run.


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## teddypops (12 February 2022)

Shocking to see and upsetting that to some people this is acceptable. I left a lesson once with someone who thought it a good idea to chase me and whip my pony with a lunge whip. Why did the rider not stop him?


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## scotlass (12 February 2022)

I'm equally confused (and upset / angered) by him and the person sitting on the horse, who sat there and let him.  If someone had done that to a horse of mine, I would have dismounted into the water if necessary, left the horse standing there and punched the trainer, even if he was a "Sir".


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## stangs (12 February 2022)

teddypops said:



			Why did the rider not stop him?
		
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As I understand it, the rider was a young adult and was afraid (understandably if not unfortunately) to stand up against one of the highest ranked equestrians in the world.


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## Nicnac (12 February 2022)

This was two years ago.  Why it is just surfacing and where's the proof it was Mark Todd?  Not condoning it in any way as vile and abusive behaviour but am extremely sceptical of social media.


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## twobearsarthur (12 February 2022)

It just makes me sad. Again. That anyone (whether that’s Mark Todd or not) thinks this is ok, that people defend it because worse things happen as though that’s an excuse.


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## cumbriamax (12 February 2022)

I don't condone the behaviour but is it confirmed who is in the video. I haven't actually watched the video.


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## ecb89 (12 February 2022)

cumbriamax said:



			I don't condone the behaviour but is it confirmed who is in the video. I haven't actually watched the video.
		
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Yes the rider posted on her instagram


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## SaddlePsych'D (12 February 2022)

I know newspapers aren't exactly strangers to defamation but it would surely be a bad idea legally for an individual to so directly and publicly name someone falsely? I've no idea about these things but the person whose social media account it was posted from is the person in the video on the horse rather than it being anonymously posted, which would have been easy enough to do instead.

In the version with sound I think the rider says something like "I don't think he'll go from there" after the initial stop. She sounds a bit shaken (to me, others may disagree); I can see how what Stangs posted would apply. It's easy for us to say things like "well I would have got off and given him xyz", and I'd count myself among those who'd definitely want to advocate for the horse at all times and hope I'd have put a stop to it, but equally can see how in a moment like that it could have been overwhelming for the rider.  I'm a bit less understanding of the people stood filming/watching because I do think it could have been easier for someone who was not the rider to step in.


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## DabDab (12 February 2022)

This is why I commented as I did on the hunt rider pony kick thread. We can shout burn the witch or we can be honest that this level of unethical stuff is horrendously common in the horse world and horse sport. It is my absolute joy that I do not have to keep my horses on livery yards anymore and don't have to see it, and know the trainers and pros locally to steer clear of. 

But we prefer to pretend that it is rare and seem to find it impossible to have a rational conversation about the things that contribute to it. The most frequent, persistent and pervasive abuse I have witnessed has been as a result of people trying to get their horses to move and respond like big sharp warmbloods because that (rather than good training) is seen as the key to dressage success. But say that in most horsey circles (incl on here) and you are dismissed as jealous, uninformed etc etc. And this is only the same thing - horse not naturally inclined to do a thing necessary for a particular sport gets the pressure ramped up and ramped up until it's tipped over into nothing short of physical abuse.


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## teddypops (12 February 2022)

SaddlePsych'D said:



			I know newspapers aren't exactly strangers to defamation but it would surely be a bad idea legally for an individual to so directly and publicly name someone falsely? I've no idea about these things but the person whose social media account it was posted from is the person in the video on the horse rather than it being anonymously posted, which would have been easy enough to do instead.

In the version with sound I think the rider says something like "I don't think he'll go from there" after the initial stop. She sounds a bit shaken (to me, others may disagree); I can see how what Stangs posted would apply. It's easy for us to say things like "well I would have got off and given him xyz", and I'd count myself among those who'd definitely want to advocate for the horse at all times and hope I'd have put a stop to it, but equally can see how in a moment like that it could have been overwhelming for the rider.  I'm a bit less understanding of the people stood filming/watching because I do think it could have been easier for someone who was not the rider to step in.
		
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From the cheering, it didn’t sound like the onlookers were particularly bothered.


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## LEC (12 February 2022)

This video is 2 years old which tells you how social licence and acceptable treatment of animals has changed.


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## Sir barnaby (12 February 2022)

I have taught in the pony club and this would never have been allowed. When the ponies are reluctant to go in the water I have led them in to give them some confidence or let them take their time one step in at a time. I have been a spectator when mark todd has been teaching and I have to say I was less than impressed. He maybe a first class rider but definitely not a first class instructor.


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## Red-1 (12 February 2022)

I don't like this video at all. Apart from anything else, the horse was going sweetly enough into the water (although I presume it had been hesitant before) when suddenly the person runs up behind it and hits it, when it was going straight in anyway (early part of the video I saw). I actually thought, "well that horse won't want to go near the water next time."

It all just seemed ineffectual and unnecessary, harmful in that the horse would feel less and less confident to approach the water's edge/hit zone,  until the poor horse did stop, then the hitting escalated into abuse. I too would have been leaving the lesson, and I know I would because I have had to brace up a XC trainer before, that I won't clobber the horse and would rather wait it out and use actual timing and finesse.

I have little finesse, so it took a fair old amount of time, but once in, the horse was confidently in, as he had actually made a decision to go in, as opposed to be running away from something even more scary. Loading is the same, people hit the horses to force them on, whereas I would spend longer on getting the horse responsive and then setting them up to be able to thoughtfully make a decision. Then the decision sticks and transfers to other situations.

I suspect the trainer was expected to 'make progress' during a lesson that would not be cheap, so used this method. Sadly, it shows something about the man that he was also happy to have it filmed, so seems confident that it is not abuse. I disagree.

I did used to use more force than I am now comfortable with, but many years ago I decided that I would rather not progress then to do it like that.

I wonder if he will put a statement out?


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## CMcC (12 February 2022)

I would have thought the Daily Mail of all organs would know that the correct way of addressing someone who has a Knighthood is Sir Mark not Sir Todd (although I think he will always be Sir Todd to me now).


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## AFishOutOfWater (12 February 2022)

LEC said:



			This video is 2 years old which tells you how social licence and acceptable treatment of animals has changed.
		
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??

it was posted on tiktok 5 days ago


ETA - never mind, just checked instagram and video was filmed at a clinic in 2020


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## Amymay (12 February 2022)

‘If’ it’s him (although regardless), what a pr!(k


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## CMcC (12 February 2022)

Snail said:



			??

it was posted on tiktok 5 days ago
		
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The video was taken two years ago and posted on Tik Tok 5 days ago.


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## AFB (12 February 2022)

Does anybody have a link to the video? I’m not sure if I’m being dense but can’t see it in the article?

Struggling to believe it’s MT without seeing for myself.

Not that it makes a difference to the actions, but because he’s always been a bit of a hero :-(


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## Red-1 (12 February 2022)

AFB said:



			Does anybody have a link to the video? I’m not sure if I’m being dense but can’t see it in the article?

Struggling to believe it’s MT without seeing for myself.

Not that it makes a difference to the actions, but because he’s always been a bit of a hero :-(
		
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I just looked on Youtube and searched Mark Todd beating horse and it came right up. Not that I am saying it is him, but that is what I searched.


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## AFishOutOfWater (12 February 2022)

AFB said:



			Does anybody have a link to the video? I’m not sure if I’m being dense but can’t see it in the article?

Struggling to believe it’s MT without seeing for myself.

Not that it makes a difference to the actions, but because he’s always been a bit of a hero :-(
		
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Chloe T (@chloet.eventing) TikTok | Watch Chloe T's Newest TikTok Videos


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## Red-1 (12 February 2022)

The version I saw was a lot longer. Again, I don't know who the man is, who the rider is, who filmed it or when/where it was filmed.


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## teddypops (12 February 2022)

Red-1 said:



			The version I saw was a lot longer. Again, I don't know who the man is, who the rider is, who filmed it or when/where it was filmed. 







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That makes it worse as the horse was gradually getting more confident.


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## AFB (12 February 2022)

Thanks - I’m confused by that if I’m honest, while it’s not a technique I’d want used, I don’t think he’s actually hitting the horse with it, just scaring it fwds? My eyes are pretty crap and I’m watching on a phone screen so prepared to be shot down…


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## AFishOutOfWater (12 February 2022)

Red-1 said:



			The version I saw was a lot longer. Again, I don't know who the man is, who the rider is, who filmed it or when/where it was filmed.







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the original was taken off tiktok because it violated their rules on violence apparently.


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## stangs (12 February 2022)

AFB said:



			Thanks - I’m confused by that if I’m honest, while it’s not a technique I’d want used, I don’t think he’s actually hitting the horse with it, just scaring it fwds? My eyes are pretty crap and I’m watching on a phone screen so prepared to be shot down…
		
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Look at the clip starting 1:25. You can pretty much see the muscle rippling in response to being hit.


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## Red-1 (12 February 2022)

AFB said:



			Thanks - I’m confused by that if I’m honest, while it’s not a technique I’d want used, I don’t think he’s actually hitting the horse with it, just scaring it fwds? My eyes are pretty crap and I’m watching on a phone screen so prepared to be shot down…
		
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If you watch to the end of the video I linked, you can hear the blows land!


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## AFishOutOfWater (12 February 2022)

AFB said:



			Thanks - I’m confused by that if I’m honest, while it’s not a technique I’d want used, I don’t think he’s actually hitting the horse with it, just scaring it fwds? My eyes are pretty crap and I’m watching on a phone screen so prepared to be shot down…
		
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no he did make contact


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## Horses_Rule (12 February 2022)

Disgrace. But unfortunately a lot of people think the only way is to beat them into doing things…. And ALOT of professionals do it as well as normal horse folk.


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## AFB (12 February 2022)

Bugger absolutely!! Serves me right for not watching properly - and yes absolutely worse when the poor thing was gaining in confidence beforehand.


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## Sandstone1 (12 February 2022)

Thats not good.


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## Tiddlypom (12 February 2022)

Oh dear 😬. The bloke does look and sound like Sir Mark Todd...

The horse was going nicely enough before this, and should have had a pat and finished off on a good note earlier.

The bloke with the whip/stick was also standing idiotically well within kicking range of the grey as he whacked it. So poor decisions added to poor decisions.

He's struck right off my list of equestrian heroes.


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## Lammy (12 February 2022)

AFB said:



			Thanks - I’m confused by that if I’m honest, while it’s not a technique I’d want used, I don’t think he’s actually hitting the horse with it, just scaring it fwds? My eyes are pretty crap and I’m watching on a phone screen so prepared to be shot down…
		
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At the start he’s just smacking the branch against the ground and making a noise, not a training technique I would use but fine whatever. 
The last time, the horse refuses and he is hitting it, 10 times I counted. Poor horse.

Really used to like Mark Todd but he’s lost all my respect for that. Sad.


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## Cortez (12 February 2022)

OK, here's what I see: a very weak rider not riding her horse forwards enough into the water - I presume that Mark Todd (hard to positively identify in the video, but doesn't really matter who it is) has been telling her to ride it more positively, but he obviously has a twig ready to provide some "encouragement". The first few times he's just swishing the twig; the horse is coming in with less, and less power each time - rider's doing nothing. The final time he whacks the horse a few times (not 10) after it has ground to the inevitable and entirely predictable, halt. Would I do this? No. Is it "horse abuse"? No, it's weak rider plus frustrated trainer = stupid thing to do.

P.S. I don't see the horse "gaining in confidence" at all - quite the opposite, it's coming in with less and less power each time, which is why trainer guy is preparing to "help".

PPS. You lads may not like it, but there is a fair amount of "positive encouragement"/stick involved in professional riding and training. Waaay more than you'd like, actually.


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## AFishOutOfWater (12 February 2022)




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## Sandstone1 (12 February 2022)

The fact that people think its not abuse speaks volumes.


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## chocolategirl (12 February 2022)

Mistletoeandawine said:



			Just came across this, I know it’s DM but I’m conflicted…. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rse-branch-TEN-times-make-water-obstacle.html

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Can I ask what you mean by, ‘I know it’s the DM’ but……………..


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## Gloi (12 February 2022)

Looks like the horse will go in where it doesn't have to jump down but doesn't want to jump down the place with the small step into the water.


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## Cortez (12 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			The fact that people think its not abuse speaks volumes.
		
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Depends on how you classify abuse though, doesn't it? I have dealt with abused horses for much of my professional life: this is not an abused horse.


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## Sandstone1 (12 February 2022)

Disappointed in Mark Todd.


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## Sandstone1 (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Depends on how you classify abuse though, doesn't it? I have dealt with abused horses for much of my professional life, this is not an abused horse.
		
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Just because you say so does not make it true.   Times are changing and that is classed as abuse these days.


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## Cortez (12 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			Just because you say so does not make it true.   Times are changing and that is classed as abuse these days.
		
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By whom?


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## Sandstone1 (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			By whom?
		
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Well most people on here for a start. Tik tok as they have taken the video down and quite possibly the rspca once they get to see it.


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## chocolategirl (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Depends on how you classify abuse though, doesn't it? I have dealt with abused horses for much of my professional life: this is not an abused horse.
		
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There’s just different levels of abuse imo, just because you don’t see this as abuse, doesn’t mean it isn’t, it’s maybe just ‘low level’ abuse, but abuse all the same, and I would have expected better from someone with his experience tbh🥺
Edited to add, I can’t bring myself to watch the video, so I’m not in a position to say if it’s abusive or not, but I get the gist from everyone else’s reactions🤔


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## Horses_Rule (12 February 2022)

There’s positive encouragement with a stick and there’s beating a horse into submission. I don’t think many people would like a schooling stick whipped across their a*se like that! If there was a video of him doing it to a dog people would have plenty to say so why is a horse any different? So to deal with a fearful and unconfident horse you should beat  it? Shambles.


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## Cortez (12 February 2022)

I agree, there are indeed levels of abuse, from very poor riders jagging at their horse's mouths - wittingly or not - to overweight riders, poorly fitting tack, nagging legs, heavy "pony club" kicks, riding sore horses, etc., etc. 

The RSPCA, in my experience, have very poor knowledge of horses indeed and certainly wouldn't be an arbiter of what constitutes abuse in training. 

If, as you say, times they are a' changing, then you can kiss goodbye to most professional equestrian sport. Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily.


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## AFishOutOfWater (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Depends on how you classify abuse though, doesn't it? I have dealt with abused horses for much of my professional life: this is not an abused horse.
		
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It's not an _abused _horse, but it is being abused in this video.

On the subject of how you classify abuse:
abuse
VERB


use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse.
"the judge abused his power by imposing the fines"
synonyms:
misuse · misapply · misemploy · mishandle · exploit · pervert · take advantage of



treat with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly.
"riders who abuse their horses should be prosecuted"
synonyms:
mistreat · maltreat · ill-treat · treat badly · ill-use · misuse ·
[More]


it both being 'mishandled', because the branch is lazy training and ineffectual, and 'treated with cruelty and violence....repeatedly'.


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## DabDab (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			PPS. You lads may not like it, but there is a fair amount of "positive encouragement"/stick involved in professional riding and training. Waaay more than you'd like, actually.
		
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Fair play to you for the honesty. I agree


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## Billyandme (12 February 2022)

Watched this a couple of times and I stand to be corrected, but I don't think that is Mark todd.  The leg length and actual bidy shape does not resemble him at all.  Mark Todd is very tall and almost slender in body shape.  Also very tall.


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## AFishOutOfWater (12 February 2022)

He really needs to release a statement I think. I'm quite surprised he hasn't already.


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## DabDab (12 February 2022)

chocolategirl said:



			There’s just different levels of abuse imo, just because you don’t see this as abuse, doesn’t mean it isn’t, it’s maybe just ‘low level’ abuse, but abuse all the same, and I would have expected better from someone with his experience tbh🥺
Edited to add, I can’t bring myself to watch the video, so I’m not in a position to say if it’s abusive or not, but I get the gist from everyone else’s reactions🤔
		
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You'll probably be ok to watch it.
I'm pretty squeamish about this kind of thing and can't watch most videos through but can get through this one. It's the sort of thing that happens quite a lot, if you've been knocking around horses for a decent amount of time then you will have probably witnessed similar.


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## Amymay (12 February 2022)

You hit an animal with a stick, you’re abusing them.

It doesn’t get much simpler than that really 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## Sandstone1 (12 February 2022)

Billyandme said:



			Watched this a couple of times and I stand to be corrected, but I don't think that is Mark todd.  The leg length and actual bidy shape does not resemble him at all.  Mark Todd is very tall and almost slender in body shape.  Also very tall.
		
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I really hope its not him but I think it probably is.


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## Hepsibah (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			OK, here's what I see: a very weak rider not riding her horse forwards enough into the water - I presume that Mark Todd (hard to positively identify in the video, but doesn't really matter who it is) has been telling her to ride it more positively, but he obviously has a twig ready to provide some "encouragement". The first few times he's just swishing the twig; the horse is coming in with less, and less power each time - rider's doing nothing. The final time he whacks the horse a few times (not 10) after it has ground to the inevitable and entirely predictable, halt. Would I do this? No. Is it "horse abuse"? No, it's weak rider plus frustrated trainer = stupid thing to do.

P.S. I don't see the horse "gaining in confidence" at all - quite the opposite, it's coming in with less and less power each time, which is why trainer guy is preparing to "help".

PPS. You lads may not like it, but there is a fair amount of "positive encouragement"/stick involved in professional riding and training. Waaay more than you'd like, actually.
		
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I counted ten. Ten thwacks with a thin stick. Is it horse abuse? Yes it absolutely is. I don't give a shiny sh1t who you think you are. If it were some young unknown girl whipping her horse like this because she felt it was "training" it, nobody would think it was anything _but _abuse.


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## Hepsibah (12 February 2022)

Snail said:



			It's not an _abused _horse, but it is being abused in this video.

On the subject of how you classify abuse:
abuse
VERB


use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse.
"the judge abused his power by imposing the fines"
synonyms:
misuse · misapply · misemploy · mishandle · exploit · pervert · take advantage of



treat with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly.
"riders who abuse their horses should be prosecuted"
synonyms:
mistreat · maltreat · ill-treat · treat badly · ill-use · misuse ·
[More]

it both being 'mishandled', because the branch is lazy training and ineffectual, and 'treated with cruelty and violence....repeatedly'.
		
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This, absolutely.


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## AFB (12 February 2022)

Billyandme said:



			Watched this a couple of times and I stand to be corrected, but I don't think that is Mark todd.  The leg length and actual bidy shape does not resemble him at all.  Mark Todd is very tall and almost slender in body shape.  Also very tall.
		
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I do hope so - I’m on the fence


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## EMSPony (12 February 2022)

It's him https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/sir-mark-todd-issues-grovelling-26213669

Awful display of abuse.  Looks like he lost patience.  Totally unprofessional.


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## mini_b (12 February 2022)

stangs said:



			As I understand it, the rider was a young adult and was afraid (understandably if not unfortunately) to stand up against one of the highest ranked equestrians in the world.
		
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i 100% appreciate this. If I was even 5 years younger, hand on heart I would have reacted the same way. I would have been devastated.


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## Tiddlypom (12 February 2022)

I thought that it looked like the rider kept thinking that she had finished, and was starting to pull up when repeatedly being asked to go round again. I expect that the horse thought that it had finished ,too.

It's not just the whacking, although that is very bad. It's the poor timing and poor training from one of eventings elite.


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## Sandstone1 (12 February 2022)

Hes going to get slated over this.


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## SaddlePsych'D (12 February 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			I thought that it looked like the rider kept thinking that she had finished, and was starting to pull up when repeatedly being asked to go round again. I expect that the horse thought that it had finished ,too.

It's not just the whacking, although that is very bad. It's the poor timing and poor training from one of eventings elite.
		
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I was just thinking about that, taking aside the mistreatment of the horse for a second (although that's obviously and rightly the main issue here), if I'd turned up to a clinic/lesson/workshop with a top name rider I'd be pretty cheesed off to have paid (I'm guessing quite a lot of money) for...that.


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## Archangel (12 February 2022)

So what did the rider learn from that?
Has it improved her technique riding a horse sticking at a fence?
There was so much help he could have given that rider.

What did the horse learn from that?
Apart from humans can be a-holes.

Surely the object of the exercise was to improve horse and rider technique and confidence.
Hardly preparing a horse for the next question is it.

Look at the bay horse on the right, his reaction tells us all we need to know.


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## scats (12 February 2022)

God I really didn’t like that at all. 
I’m so, so disappointed to see that from someone I considered a hero of mine.


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## Cortez (12 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			You hit an animal with a stick, you’re abusing them.

It doesn’t get much simpler than that really 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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There goes racing, dressage, polo, all jumping, driving, lunging, natural horsemanship, in-hand - basically all of horse training......


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## AdorableAlice (12 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			Hes going to get slated over this.
		
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So he should.  He has been an ambassador for the horse world for a very long time.  I have no idea if his racing yard has sponsorship but if it does they will or should be running for the hills.


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## AFishOutOfWater (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			There goes racing, dressage, polo, all jumping, driving, lunging, natural horsemanship, in-hand - basically all of horse training......
		
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You don't NEED to hit the animal to do well and train effectively in any of those disciplines. People may choose to do so because they are ineffectual trainers but it is not _required_.


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## Amymay (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			There goes racing, dressage, polo, all jumping, driving, lunging, natural horsemanship, in-hand - basically all of horse training......
		
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I think you understand the point I was making.


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## Sandstone1 (12 February 2022)

AdorableAlice said:



			So he should.  He has been an ambassador for the horse world for a very long time.  I have no idea if his racing yard has sponsorship but if it does they will or should be running for the hills.
		
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I agree.


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## Equi (12 February 2022)

Different topic somewhat but I still don’t know how the media haven’t picked up that gobshite h.s. Do they only care about people they can destroy? (Not enough human left in h to destroy.)


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## TheLoneWanderer (12 February 2022)

Equi said:



			Oh dear. He’s made it so far in the equestrian world now he’s done. He really should know better this is unacceptable.
		
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🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 If you think that will end his career that you are magnificently wrong. I have seen those as successful as him do far worse and get away with it.


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## Sandstone1 (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			There goes racing, dressage, polo, all jumping, driving, lunging, natural horsemanship, in-hand - basically all of horse training......
		
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But you do not have to or need to hit them.   The clue is in the word training.. Training does not have to involve hitting or any abuse.  As I said before times are changing and I hope for the better.


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## TheLoneWanderer (12 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			I agree.
		
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I don't, by any stretch of the imagination, far far worse is about


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## TheLoneWanderer (12 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			But you do not have to or need to hit them.   The clue is in the word training.. Training does not have to involve hitting or any abuse.  As I said before times are changing and I hope for the better.
		
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That's not abuse


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## Sandstone1 (12 February 2022)

TheLoneWanderer said:



			I don't, by any stretch of the imagination, far far worse is about
		
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I know there is far worse but that does not mean this is right.  You have to start somewhere.


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## Sandstone1 (12 February 2022)

TheLoneWanderer said:



			That's not abuse
		
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Thats your opinion, in mine it is.


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## teapot (12 February 2022)

Hepsibah said:



			I counted ten. Ten thwacks with a thin stick. Is it horse abuse? Yes it absolutely is. I don't give a shiny sh1t who you think you are. If it were some young unknown girl whipping her horse like this because she felt it was "training" it, nobody would think it was anything _but _abuse.
		
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Out of interest - would you count a lazy/tired/sour riding school horse getting ten whip hits in a lesson abuse too?

I go back to what I said mid Tokyo Olympics - if people want things to change, they need to start addressing the harsh reality that a huge number of people do far worse than what’s in that video on a daily basis.


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## Amymay (12 February 2022)

He’s getting a hammering on his fb page.


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## Cortez (12 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			He’s getting a hammering on his fb page.
		
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Well, of course he is. It would be nice if the outraged commenters turned their outrage in the direction of real abusers.


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## Amymay (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Well, of course he is. It would be nice if the outraged commenters turned their outrage in the direction of real abusers.
		
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Why so trite and dismissive?


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## stangs (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			There goes racing, dressage, polo, all jumping, driving, lunging, natural horsemanship, in-hand - basically all of horse training......
		
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There will always be trainers that rely on these techniques, but there are also a growing number of people - amateurs and professionals - that use only ethical (and supported by science) methods in training. Yes, in some disciplines, this is much more common. But what a defeatist attitude to assume that no horse sport is possible without hitting horses.



teapot said:



			Out of interest - would you count a lazy/tired/sour riding school horse getting ten whip hits in a lesson abuse too?
		
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Yes, I would. And it sickens me to think it wouldn't to someone else.

When I was a kid, I witnessed an instructor at my RS do something very similar to a very sour little pony. I said nothing because between I knew he wouldn't have taken me seriously, I being the inexperienced child expected to learn from this. But that scene still haunts me, I still feel bitter hatred towards said instructor, and I still feel guilty that I never said anything.

Plus, it didn't even work. Sure, the rider got one trot out of it afterwards, panicked and rushed, running into the hindquarters of the horse in front. And then it just shut down completely. Was even worse the next day.


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## Equi (12 February 2022)

TheLoneWanderer said:



			🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 If you think that will end his career that you are magnificently wrong. I have seen those as successful as him do far worse and get away with it.
		
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No I don’t think it will end his career but he will no longer be hailed as the hero he has always been seen as. It will hit him in the pocket somehow (though I suspect those pockets are already rather large)


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## scats (12 February 2022)

I feel like the action was a mixture of frustration/loss of patience.  If he had stood behind it and continued to waggle the branch to encourage it via the noise, that would have been one thing.  Or even rested it against its bum as encouragement, but I felt like it tipped into a loss of control/act of frustration.  Yes, there is far worse abuse out there.  Far, far worse, in fact.  But still, that’s not the way I like to see an animal trained and I don’t think we should be ‘ok’ with it.


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## TPO (12 February 2022)

Never sure why the "there is worse that happens" or "others get away with it" are trotted out as excuses every time something like this happens.

Abuse of animals should be tackled at all levels regardless of the perpetrator or their achievements, social standing or wealth.


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## Hepsibah (12 February 2022)

teapot said:



			Out of interest - would you count a lazy/tired/sour riding school horse getting ten whip hits in a lesson abuse too?

I go back to what I said mid Tokyo Olympics - if people want things to change, they need to start addressing the harsh reality that a huge number of people do far worse than what’s in that video on a daily basis.
		
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Yes. You don't really need an explanation why it is abusive to hit a horse over and over and over again do you? Really?  If people want things to change, it needs to have a light shone on it every time it rears it's ugly head. That includes Mark Todd whaling on a horse to "train" it, riding schools allowing beatings to be given to their horses in lessons and any other cruelty you care to mention.


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## stangs (12 February 2022)

Also, if one person is in a relationship where their OH locks them up in the basement and has cut off their legs, and another in a relationship where their OH frequently yells at them and throws glassware in their direction: both people are in abusive relationships, regardless of the intensity of the abuse. Sure, one OH may be locked away for life, one may just be given a restraining order - but they're still both abusive.


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## Bellaboo18 (12 February 2022)

Embarrassing. 

We've got to do far, far better than this.


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## Cortez (12 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			Why so trite and dismissive?
		
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I'm neither. Look, don't get me wrong,  I am utterly opposed to abuse of any animal and I have spent a considerable part of my life working with neglected and traumatised horses, dogs and other animals. But getting all aerated about this type of rough justice is misplaced when there is so much outright nastiness out there, often unrealised or unacknowledged. One of the many reasons I left the professional training world is because I wasn't prepared to do the things many considered necessary to get horses to the top. I have NEVER resorted to whaling the a*se off a horse to get to do something, but the idea that horses are trained to high levels with nothing but sugar lumps is naive .


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## AFishOutOfWater (12 February 2022)

TPO said:



			Never sure why the "there is worse that happens" or "others get away with it" are trotted out as excuses every time something like this happens.

Abuse of animals should be tackled at all levels regardless of the perpetrator or their achievements, social standing or wealth.
		
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I agree wholeheartedly with this. EVERY form of abuse should be called out, at ALL levels - whether it's an olympian hitting a horse with a stick, badly fitting tack at a riding club, or a horse being left to starve. All are abuse and all are unacceptable.


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## Shilasdair (12 February 2022)

I have to admit that when teaching, I've never even chased a ridden horse with a lunge whip*.  No point.

* Unless I was taking a lunge lesson, where I control the horse with a cavesson and a lunge line, and a lunge whip, while the rider works on their position.


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## teapot (12 February 2022)

TPO said:



			Never sure why the "there is worse that happens" or "others get away with it" are trotted out as excuses every time something like this happens.

Abuse of animals should be tackled at all levels regardless of the perpetrator or their achievements, social standing or wealth.
		
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Probably because like always, there will be 48hrs of social media outrage before it becomes yesterday's news. Meanwhile far worse cases of abuse will go ignored and the hundreds commenting on fb/insta/tiktok will turn a blind eye to right under their noses. That's what annoys me. That video is supposedly two years old, horse looks well cared for etc, lots more recent vids on the rider's instagram account,  meanwhile how many horses got smacked around at BS across the UK today alone?



Hepsibah said:



			Yes. You don't really need an explanation why it is abusive to hit a horse over and over and over again do you? Really?  If people want things to change, it needs to have a light shone on it every time it rears it's ugly head. That includes Mark Todd whaling on a horse to "train" it, riding schools allowing beatings to be given to their horses in lessons and any other cruelty you care to mention.
		
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So a kid ineffectively using their stick is abusing their riding school pony? Shining a light every time it happens would end the industry in five minutes flat. Where do you draw the line?

Like Cortez, I'm pro calling out any abuse, but I'm really not sure some realise how precarious the situtation truly is when it comes to our hobby and industry at the moment, or indeed that outrage is aimed in the right directions.


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## Amymay (12 February 2022)

but the idea that horses are trained to high levels with nothing but sugar lumps is naive.
		
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I think that most people involved with horses understand that, but we hope and _expect _better.  And if such behaviour is made public it should be called out.

And those offended by such behaviour should not be ridiculed for their upset and concern.


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## AFishOutOfWater (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			I'm neither. Look, don't get me wrong,  I am utterly opposed to abuse of any animal and I have spent a considerable part of my life working with neglected and traumatised horses, dogs and other animals. But getting all aerated about this type of rough justice is misplaced when there is so much outright nastiness out there, often unrealised or unacknowledged. One of the many reasons I left the professional training world is because I wasn't prepared to do the things many considered necessary to get horses to the top. I have NEVER resorted to whaling the a*se off a horse to get to do something, but the idea that horses are trained to high levels with nothing but sugar lumps is naive .
		
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no one has said you can train to high levels with 'nothing but sugar lumps', or implied anything of the sort. That's gross hyperbole. 
But you can be assertive, safe, and effective without resorting to giving the animal a hiding which it will learn nothing from.


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## AFishOutOfWater (12 February 2022)

cross posted with amymay sorry


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## Hepsibah (12 February 2022)

....


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## sky1000 (12 February 2022)

That clip seems so at odds with how he came across.  He seemed so laid back and relaxed.  He looks a bit demented in that clip - in the sense that he has lost it.


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## FlyingCircus (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			There goes racing, dressage, polo, all jumping, driving, lunging, natural horsemanship, in-hand - basically all of horse training......
		
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If you're hitting your horse ever with a stick/crop, you're doing it wrong.


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## Hepsibah (12 February 2022)

teapot said:



			Probably because like always, there will be 48hrs of social media outrage before it becomes yesterday's news. Meanwhile far worse cases of abuse will go ignored and the hundreds commenting on fb/insta/tiktok will turn a blind eye to, right under their noses. That's what annoys me. That video is supposedly two years old, horse looks well cared for etc, lots more recent vids on the rider's instagram account,  meanwhile how many horses got smacked around at BS across the UK today alone?



So a kid ineffectively using their stick is abusing their riding school pony? Shining a light every time it happens would end the industry in five minutes flat. Where do you draw the line?

Like Cortez, I'm pro calling out any abuse, but I'm really not sure some realise how precarious the situtation truly is when it comes to our hobby and industry at the moment, or indeed that outrage is aimed in the right directions.
		
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The quote was a reply to a riding school horse being hit with a whip. Interesting how you downgrade that to a child ineffectively using their stick. 
I think you'll find it's the ones sticking up for those who inflict this sort of abuse are the ones who turn a blind eye to it. Where do _you_ draw the line?


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## Shilasdair (12 February 2022)

FlyingCircus said:



			If you're hitting your horse ever with a stick/crop, you're doing it wrong.
		
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If you are kicking your horse's ribs like a demented thing because you are 'too kind to use a whip', you are doing it more wrong.


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## FlyingCircus (12 February 2022)

Shilasdair said:



			If you are kicking your horse's ribs like a demented thing because you are 'too kind to use a whip', you are doing it more wrong.
		
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Quite! But just because booting them in the ribs is bad doesn't mean hitting them isn't bad.


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## teapot (12 February 2022)

Hepsibah said:



			The quote was a reply to a riding school horse being hit with a whip. Interesting how you downgrade that to a child ineffectively using their stick.
		
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Yes because on average kids with sticks on ponies is what riding schools are about. You took it to mean an adult beating something around, I didn't.




			I think you'll find it's the ones sticking up for those who inflict this sort of abuse are the ones who turn a blind eye to it. Where do _you_ draw the line?
		
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Utter ball-cocks. FWIW I quit a job of three years in part because the welfare of the horses wasn't considered enough. Sure they were cared for well but their workload was appalling. Please don't talk to me about turning a blind eye.

I think overworked horses being repeatedly kicked in the ribs, three or four hours a day is possibly far more abusive long term, than one too many hard smacks with a whip...


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## Cortez (12 February 2022)

FlyingCircus said:



			If you're hitting your horse ever with a stick/crop, you're doing it wrong.
		
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Will you tell Carl/Charlotte/insert-well-known-trainer-here, or shall I?


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## DabDab (12 February 2022)

Snail said:



			no one has said you can train to high levels with 'nothing but sugar lumps', or implied anything of the sort. That's gross hyperbole.
But you can be assertive, safe, and effective without resorting to giving the animal a hiding which it will learn nothing from.
		
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People pretty much have. And those comments read as naive to me as they seem to to Cortez.

Every high level dressage rider that I have had access to see a decent amount of their training has had an element of what I would describe as unethical practice. As a standard in horse sport horses are trained with pressure. And that pressure and the way it is applied routinely goes too far. In many ways all the main horse sports are rotten from the top down tbh.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And someone isn't condoning one abusive act just because they point out the bigger picture.


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## Shilasdair (12 February 2022)

FlyingCircus said:



			Quite! But just because booting them in the ribs is bad doesn't mean hitting them isn't bad.
		
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To be honest, if you ride at all you are being cruel.  It is not in a horse's best interest to have a human sat on it, and be forced to work.
Do you ride?


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## Shilasdair (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Will you tell Carl/Charlotte/insert-well-known-trainer-here, or shall I?
		
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To be fair, I don't think she knows the theory of equitation - she thinks you 'hit' horses with whips.


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## SatansLittleHelper (12 February 2022)

TPO said:



			Never sure why the "there is worse that happens" or "others get away with it" are trotted out as excuses every time something like this happens.

Abuse of animals should be tackled at all levels regardless of the perpetrator or their achievements, social standing or wealth.
		
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This, in spades. ALL abuse needs to be called out, whether it's as in this video or starvation, neglect etc....it's all abuse. No matter how you dress it up there just isn't an excuse, EVER.


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## Mule (12 February 2022)

The beast used to be afraid of drains. I got him confident by leading him up to nose them then after a while put his feet in and then finally lunging him over. In saying this, I have 0.0% talent compared to Mark Todd, although, maybe more patience.

But ime, most people just beat them across so it's not exactly rare. We shouldn't pretend it's not the norm.


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## Hepsibah (12 February 2022)

teapot said:



			Utter ball-cocks. FWIW I quit a job of three years in part because the welfare of the horses wasn't considered enough. Sure they were cared for well but their workload and lack of maintence/veterinary aid was appalling. Please don't talk to me about turning a blind eye.
		
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You are the one talking about blind eyes Teapot.

..... the hundreds commenting on fb/insta/tiktok will turn a blind eye to, right under their noses.

Put it under their noses and they'll do exactly what they've done here.


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## Hepsibah (12 February 2022)

Shilasdair said:



			To be honest, if you ride at all you are being cruel.  It is not in a horse's best interest to have a human sat on it, and be forced to work.
Do you ride?
		
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That's a straw man argument.


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## teapot (12 February 2022)

Hepsibah said:



			You are the one talking about blind eyes Teapot.

..... the hundreds commenting on fb/insta/tiktok will turn a blind eye to, right under their noses.

Put it under their noses and they'll do exactly what they've done here.
		
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Well they do turn a blind eye. You really think members of the public immediately call out what they see at BD/BS/BE, wider shows, warm ups, wider disciplines etc? While watching and having a coffee? I'm not so sure.

It's all too easy to be outraged and disgusted when it's in your social media timeline/behind a screen...


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## FlyingCircus (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Will you tell Carl/Charlotte/insert-well-known-trainer-here, or shall I?
		
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Doesn't matter how well known or successful the person doing it is, it doesn't make it OK. I can only assume the success and fame make people who inflict pain on purpose sleep better at night...


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## AFishOutOfWater (12 February 2022)

teapot said:



			Well they do turn a blind eye. You really think members of the public immediately call out what they might see at BD/BS/BE, wider shows, warm ups, wider disciplines etc? While watching and having a coffee? I'm not so sure.

It's all too easy to outraged and disgsuted when it's in your social media timeline/behind a screen...
		
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without social media there would not be consequences for an awful lot of offences surrounding hurting animals, though. On the whole I think social media has probably helped animal welfare.


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## Mule (12 February 2022)

L


Snail said:



			without social media there would not be consequences for an awful lot of offences surrounding hurting animals, though. On the whole I think social media has probably helped animal welfare.
		
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Like Kurt Zouma recently


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## Hepsibah (12 February 2022)

teapot said:



			Well they do turn a blind eye. You really think members of the public immediately call out what they might see at BD/BS/BE, wider shows, warm ups, wider disciplines etc? While watching and having a coffee? I'm not so sure.

It's all too easy to outraged and disgsuted when it's in your social media timeline/behind a screen...
		
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I disagree, it isn't too easy. It is exactly easy enough. People on the inside allow the problem to perpetuate because they're inside it. It's just the way things are. It is only when someone calls it out and says "OMG have you seen this?"  I mean, look at the video again. There's a well known, well respected member of the equestrian elite whipping a horse again and again and again. Of course people are going to think it's outrageous and disgusting. It is.


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## teapot (12 February 2022)

Snail said:



			without social media there would not be consequences for an awful lot of offences surrounding hurting animals, though. On the whole I think social media has probably helped animal welfare.
		
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Only if that social media content gets picked up by regulatory bodies. Then you get the situation with the hunting teacher for example.



Hepsibah said:



			I disagree, it isn't too easy. It is exactly easy enough. People on the inside allow the problem to perpetuate because they're inside it. It's just the way things are. It is only when someone calls it out and says "OMG have you seen this?"  I mean, look at the video again. There's a well known, well respected member of the equestrian elite whipping a horse again and again and again. Of course people are going to think it's outrageous and disgusting. It is.
		
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I'm not saying it isn't but posting all over his facebook page won't make ANY difference. If people really wanted change they'd be contacting the BHA about the standard shown by someone holding a trainer's licence...


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## TPO (12 February 2022)

You can use a stick/whip, spurs, bits, nosebands etc without being cruel or abusive.

IMO you're far more likely to find an "everyday" rider causing pain with those items than a professional who has an independent seat and hands along with a secure leg position. 

I firmly believe that it is possible to produce and compete horses at/to the highest levels without having to abuse them. There is a lot of scope between sugar cubes and bearing the $#!¥ out an animal.


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## Hepsibah (12 February 2022)

I like to think that there are people out there right now who will moderate their behaviour because they don't want to be caught on camera.


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## TPO (12 February 2022)

Hepsibah said:



			I like to think that there are people out there right now who will moderate their behaviour because they don't want to be caught on camera.
		
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Thats always happened.

Even pre camera phones and social media *things* happened in private that was never replicated when the public was around or in a public place, like a competition. Of course there have always been those that temper has gotten thr better off and they have done thing publicly


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## AFB (12 February 2022)

The ‘worse things happen’ argument really riles me, similar to the ‘all lives matter’ argument. We all know that, but stating it is dismissive of the subject in hand. 

Have to say I’m genuinely saddened to lose the respect for someone I’ve enjoyed following for 20+ years, but the wider issue of animal abuse doesn’t detract from what has happened here.


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## Mule (12 February 2022)

Shilasdair said:



			If you are kicking your horse's ribs like a demented thing because you are 'too kind to use a whip', you are doing it more wrong.
		
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Yep, I absolutely hate the pony club kicking. A tip with a crop is far more humane imo.


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## ycbm (12 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			You hit an animal with a stick, you’re abusing them.

It doesn’t get much simpler than that really 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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I'm sorry AM, but i don't think it's that simple. I can think of many situations hacking,  eventing,  hunting, schooling when it would not be safe for the rider or the horse if you weren't able to give a horse a sharp smack.  
.


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## meleeka (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Well, of course he is. It would be nice if the outraged commenters turned their outrage in the direction of real abusers.
		
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It is real abuse.   I think it’s probably very common amongst professional riders, but that doesn’t make it ok.

I can’t quite understand why anyone would stand directly behind a horse and whip if.  That’s just stupid.


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## Mule (12 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			I'm sorry AM, but i don't think it's that simple. I can think of many situations hacking,  eventing,  hunting, schooling when it would not be safe for the rider or the horse if you weren't able to give a horse a sharp smack.
.
		
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The  feeling of a horse winding down before a jump on xc is a horrible feeling. Very dangerous and an example where using a whip has got me and my horse out of trouble.


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## teapot (12 February 2022)

Mule said:



			The  feeling of a horse winding down before a jump on xc is a horrible feeling. Very dangerous and an example where using a whip has got me and my horse out of trouble.
		
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My immediate though of when it can be needed was out hacking/on roads...


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## TPO (12 February 2022)

There's a difference between using a stick as an aid (that the horse has previosuly been taught how to respond to) and a stick to beat a horse

There was plenty said on here about a particular pro eventer using his stick *a lot* to get tired horses home at a televised event


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## Mule (12 February 2022)

TPO said:



			There's a difference between using a stick as an aid (that the horse has previosuly been taught how to respond to) and a stick to beat a horse

There was plenty said on here about a particular pro eventer using his stick *a lot* to get tired horses home at a televised event
		
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Yes, that's it.  One is an aid, the other is frustration.


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## ycbm (12 February 2022)

Mule said:



			The  feeling of a horse winding down before a jump on xc is a horrible feeling. Very dangerous and an example where using a whip has got me and my horse out of trouble.
		
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teapot said:



			My immediate though of when it can be needed was out hacking/on roads...
		
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I originally wrote some examples, one the cross country one and one a blind bend out hacking with a car approaching fast behind you,   but decided my post was too long.  

Another I experienced was a horse backing rapidly across an unfenced arena and in danger of falling down a bank.  I've had excited horses do the same out hunting towards barbed wire, other horses,  or a ditch. 

I do understand the "training to accept the whip as an aid" argument,  but I don't think it's reasonable to expect every horse in every situation, no matter how well trained,  to respond in the necessary timescales to a whip aid which is less than a sharp crack on the backside.


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## Mule (12 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			I originally wrote some examples, one the cross country one and one a blind bend out hacking with a car approaching fast behind you,   but decided my post was too long. 

Another I experienced was a horse backing rapidly across an unfenced arena and in danger of falling down a bank.  I've had excited horses do the same out hunting.

I do understand the "training to accept the whip as an aid" argument,  but I don't think it's reasonable to expect every horse in every situation, no matter how well trained.,  to respond in the necessary timescales to a whip aid which is less than a sharp crack on the backside.
		
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Yes, safety has to trump everything.


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## ycbm (12 February 2022)

Mule said:



			Yes, safety has to trump everything.
		
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Well,  if it doesn't then I think we will need to give up riding in the activities we do now.  I think that day is coming at some point in the future. 
.


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## chocolategirl (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			I'm neither. Look, don't get me wrong,  I am utterly opposed to abuse of any animal and I have spent a considerable part of my life working with neglected and traumatised horses, dogs and other animals. But getting all aerated about this type of rough justice is misplaced when there is so much outright nastiness out there, often unrealised or unacknowledged. One of the many reasons I left the professional training world is because I wasn't prepared to do the things many considered necessary to get horses to the top. I have NEVER resorted to whaling the a*se off a horse to get to do something, but the idea that horses are trained to high levels with nothing but sugar lumps is naive .
		
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Yes, but unfortunately he’s a role model to so many, so this is a huge fall from grace, and sets a terrible example to those who have long admired him. I think that’s why there’s been such a big reaction, but that,s my opinion🤔


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## Gloi (12 February 2022)

The largest number of horses coming into my friend's yard for retraining are coloured cobs who have become dangerous because they have learnt there are no consequences to saying "I don't want to / you can't make me" 🙁


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## Mule (12 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			Well,  if it doesn't then I think we will need to give up riding in the activities we do now.  I think that day is coming at some point in the future.
.
		
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I'm not sure. Horse racing is very popular among the general public, despite whip use and horse fatalities.


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## TPO (12 February 2022)

I've got a cheek because I love a ramble and veering off on a tangent but how have we moved on from MT flogging a horse to anyone carrying a stick is cruel or that what MT did is comparable to "needing"* to crack a horse for safety reasons

*I'd argue that any horse "needing" a smack in whatever situation wasn't properly trained and that there were massive holes in its/the riders education


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## Bellaboo18 (12 February 2022)

If we're going to ride horses, I think most people would agree there's moments where safety comes first. Dropping off the bridle a stride or two out, spooking into on coming traffic, mowing you over when bringing in etc. In those or similar situations I've got no problem with a quick tap but i hate to see someone losing their temper or in this case just using completely lazy training techniques. It's not setting a horse up to succeed for the future.


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## ycbm (12 February 2022)

Mule said:



			I'm not sure. Horse racing is very popular among the general public, despite whip use and horse fatalities.
		
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I think it may be 50 or 100 years but I'm reasonably sure racing in its current form will one day be widely considered unacceptable,  but I also think it will be followed at some time by riding live animals at all.  
.


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## ycbm (12 February 2022)

TPO said:



			*I'd argue that any horse "needing" a smack in whatever situation wasn't properly trained and that there were massive holes in its/the riders education
		
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I'd counter by suggesting that as long as horses have independent brains in their heads that no amount of perfect training will ensure that they react exactly according to their training in every possible situation that they might encounter.
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## The Fuzzy Furry (12 February 2022)

Seems there is an apology now up.

Ref sticks, I haven't ridden with a std one since mid 2016 when I got myself a fab project who was a little more than whip shy.... 

I do occasionally carry my hunting whip out hacking to fend off rude dogs tho....


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## TPO (12 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			I'd counter by suggesting that as long as horses have independent brains in their heads that no amount of perfect training will ensure that they react exactly according to their training in every possible situation that they might encounter.
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I'd counter that with horses trained by Buck Brannaman or Mark Rashid 

We expect and accept very little from horses and what we train but this is going even further away from OT and should be it's own thread (although it's been it's own thread multiple times before)


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## MotherOfChickens (12 February 2022)

*managed to f up quote*

I think that in 50-100 years we’ll either be using them as transport or not keeping them at all.


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## Mule (12 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			I think it may be 50 or 100 years but I'm reasonably sure racing in its current form will one day be widely considered unacceptable,  but I also think it will be followed at some time by riding live animals at all.
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They have banned the whip in racing in one (or more) of the Scandinavian countries. I don't know if they allow jockeys to use it for steering.
I think it would be best for racing and other disciplines to take the initiative in these things rather than wait until public opinion turns against it.

Similar to hunts that haven't stuck to trail hunting. It would have been better for them to have embraced it rather than try to get around the law and possible put legal hunting  in jeopardy.


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## Bellaboo18 (12 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			I'd counter by suggesting that as long as horses have independent brains in their heads that no amount of perfect training will ensure that they react exactly according to their training in every possible situation that they might encounter.
.
		
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And, to me, the horse could behave perfectly but if a car comes round the bend quickly and you need to send a quick message to say get over there, a smack might be the best option.


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## scats (12 February 2022)

Tapping a horse once with a whip to move it quickly out of a dangerous situation is one thing, smacking it repeatedly over and over, in frustration, because it won’t jump into some water on a cross country course, is entirely different.  I’m not sure that comparing them is particularly useful, though I do recognise that we are on rocky ground with regards riding horses anyway, particularly when whips are involved.


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## Bellaboo18 (12 February 2022)

Mule said:



			They have banned the whip in racing in one (or more) of the Scandinavian countries. I don't know if they allow jockeys to use it for steering.
I think it would be best for racing and other disciplines to take the initiative in these things rather than wait until public opinion turns against it.

Similar to hunts that haven't stuck to trail hunting. It would have been better for them to have embraced it rather than try to get around the law and put even legal hunting  in jeopardy.
		
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I think the whip will be banned in racing in the next few years. I was on a focus group for the BHA last year, it was discussed and everyone voted in favour of using the whip for safety only.


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## Mule (12 February 2022)

Bellaboo18 said:



			I think the whip will be banned in racing in the next few years. I was on a focus group for the BHA last year, it was discussed and everyone voted in favour of using the whip for safety only.
		
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It makes sense to me. There's no need for it really. It will just become more and more controversial having it.


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## Shilasdair (12 February 2022)

PETA want riding to be banned - so this is the first step on a road to 'cruelty free' horse keeping - where you don't ride them.

And if you don't carry a nice dressage whip with a flappy leather bit on the end - how do you kill the clegs for your horse whilst hacking?

(I remember the old ladies at the bowling club next to my horses' field asking why my horses would suddenly rush over to me while I was poo-picking, and why I 'slapped them' (cleg killing!).    They also asked why I blindfolded them (fly masks).


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## Mule (12 February 2022)

Shilasdair said:



			PETA want riding to be banned - so this is the first step on a road to 'cruelty free' horse keeping - where you don't ride them.

And if you don't carry a nice dressage whip with a flappy leather bit on the end - how do you kill the clegs for your horse whilst hacking?

(I remember the old ladies at the bowling club next to my horses' field asking why my horses would suddenly rush over to me while I was poo-picking, and why I 'slapped them' (cleg killing!).    They also asked why I blindfolded them (fly masks).  

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Peta are very extreme. They don't want any  livestock to exist either. I can't imagine the countryside without sheep and cows. Better to eat less meat and pay farmers more for what they produce than expecting the world to go meat free. A smaller supply of meat would get farmers better prices. And cut down on intensive farming.


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## DabDab (12 February 2022)

TPO said:



			There's a difference between using a stick as an aid (that the horse has previosuly been taught how to respond to) and a stick to beat a horse

There was plenty said on here about a particular pro eventer using his stick *a lot* to get tired horses home at a televised event
		
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🤷 Just because a horse has learnt/been taught to give a response to a whip as an aid doesn't mean that learning happened in a non-abusive way. Pretty sure the horse in that video will be inclined to forwardness in the future if another branch is waved behind it...for example.


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## Lammy (12 February 2022)

I am not naive and am aware that terrible training methods happen at the top of every sport. I don’t think there’s room for it and the sport needs to move into the 21st century. I’m certainly not saying there isn’t need for firm riding or that a whip isn’t sometimes required for safety, but there certainly isn’t a need for outdated training practices and the governing bodies have to come down harder on the perpetrators. For that to happen videos like this need to come out on social media, though I hope one day we can trust those in power enough to send concerns in directly, knowing they will be dealt with.

MT, for me, overstepped the fine line between “just bad training” and abuse. He knew what he was doing was wrong, did it anyway, out of frustration.

I could feel my frustration building with my horse in the school the other day, guess what I did? Stopped and took the horse back to the yard, gave my head a wobble, gave them a pat and came back with a better attitude the next day. If my neurodivergent arse can do that, MT certainly can.


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## EMSPony (12 February 2022)

DabDab said:



			🤷 Just because a horse has learnt/been taught to give a response to a whip as an aid doesn't mean that learning happened in a non-abusive way. Pretty sure the horse in that video will be inclined to forwardness in the future if another branch is waved behind it...for example.
		
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But that's not going to be much use to the rider unless she employs people to wave branches at her horse while she does a cross country course.  What the horse has more likely learned is to avoid water as bad things happen near water.  Not only was it abuse, it can't even pretend to be effective training.  At least he's not trying to defend it in any way, shape or form in his apology.


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## Hepsibah (12 February 2022)

Mule said:



			Peta are very extreme. They don't want any  livestock to exist either. I can't imagine the countryside without sheep and cows. Better to est less meat and pay farmers a decent amount for what they produce than expecting the world to go meat free.
		
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PETA are a bunch of lunatics.


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## Mule (12 February 2022)

Hepsibah said:



			PETA are a bunch of lunatics.
		
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Yes, I didn't know how extreme they were until recently.


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## DabDab (12 February 2022)

EMSPony said:



			But that's not going to be much use to the rider unless she employs people to wave branches at her horse while she does a cross country course.  What the horse has more likely learned is to avoid water as bad things happen near water.  Not only was it abuse, it can't even pretend to be effective training.  At least he's not trying to defend it in any way, shape or form in his apology.
		
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Yeah, that wasn't my point.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (12 February 2022)

This is awful.. and after reading the comments on TikTok and Facebook it seems he’s done it to loads and loads of people for years!! And if that’s how he teaches just hate to think what he does at home. Not to mention his most recent post on his own Facebook page was about breaking in yearlings fo race!! Used to have so much admiration for MT but totally lost all respect for him


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## Gloi (12 February 2022)

MotherOfChickens said:



			*managed to f up quote*

I think that in 50-100 years we’ll either be using them as transport or not keeping them at all.
		
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And fighting over who gets to eat them.


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## Cortez (12 February 2022)

EMSPony said:



			But that's not going to be much use to the rider unless she employs people to wave branches at her horse while she does a cross country course.  What the horse has more likely learned is to avoid water as bad things happen near water.  Not only was it abuse, it can't even pretend to be effective training.  At least he's not trying to defend it in any way, shape or form in his apology.
		
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Um, hasn't Mark Todd won like most of the top things in eventing? I'd say that was because of "effective training", and I'd also say he probably knows a thing or two about how to get horses to jump into water, quite possibly more than I and most of us on here do. Of course he's apologising; he'll be eaten alive if he doesn't. Sorry not sorry.

And unfortunately breaking yearlings (actually rising two, but still awful) for racing is what they do in that game.


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## Charley657 (12 February 2022)

I have just seen it on Instagram and I'm disgusted.   I hope people boycott his products and hit him where it hurts.   There are ways to get a horse to do something but that is the WRONG way and the horse learnt nothing but fear and pain from that experience.


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## TPO (12 February 2022)

DabDab said:



			🤷 Just because a horse has learnt/been taught to give a response to a whip as an aid doesn't mean that learning happened in a non-abusive way. Pretty sure the horse in that video will be inclined to forwardness in the future if another branch is waved behind it...for example.
		
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Agreed but I wasn't counting  beating/hurting/scaring/traumatising as ways of teaching a horse how to respond to a whip/any aid


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## EMSPony (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Um, hasn't Mark Todd won like most of the top things in eventing? I'd say that was because of "effective training", and I'd also say he probably knows a thing or two about how to get horses to jump into water, quite possibly more than I and most of us on here do. Of course he's apologising; he'll be eaten alive if he doesn't. Sorry not sorry.

And unfortunately breaking yearlings (actually rising two, but still awful) for racing is what they do in that game.
		
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I didn't say he wasn't an effective trainer.  I said that this was not an example of effective training.  And irrespective of whether it was effective or not (ie how willingly the horse jumped into water after the session) it was not appropriate training.  To my mind at least it simply can't be justified, no matter the talk on here of other instances when people have justified their use of the whip in terms of safety/emergencies etc.  None of that descibes what happened in this particular situation.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (12 February 2022)

I also think there is a huge difference between giving a horse a smack with a stick when they’re being naughty/ cheeky or MAYBE sometimes stop them refusing, but smacking an unsure horse repeatedly 10 times to force them is totally different… in that video the horse looked like he was jumping into the water fine before, it was only at the bigger height that he wasn’t confident, he barely even gave the horse a chance to look at it, he wasn’t misbehaving he just was unsure, which is only natural…


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## Lois Lame (12 February 2022)

scotlass said:



			I'm equally confused (and upset / angered) by him and the person sitting on the horse, who sat there and let him.  If someone had done that to a horse of mine, I would have dismounted into the water if necessary, left the horse standing there and punched the trainer, even if he was a "Sir".
		
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You might have then been up for assault.


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## Cortez (12 February 2022)

Hypothetical question: if the rider had given the horse a couple of smacks with the whip when it slowed and stopped at the water would that have been abuse?


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## Lois Lame (12 February 2022)

It's disappointing to see this of Mark Todd.


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## Hepsibah (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Hypothetical question: if the rider had given the horse a couple of smacks with the whip when it slowed and stopped at the water would that have been abuse?
		
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You keep asking these questions. At what point does it become unacceptable enough for _you_ to think it's excessive/abusive?


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## meleeka (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Hypothetical question: if the rider had given the horse a couple of smacks with the whip when it slowed and stopped at the water would that have been abuse?
		
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A smack with the whip would not have been abuse imo.  Hitting it 10 times so hard that you can hear the branch connecting  most definitely is abuse.  That’s not training, or reminding the horse to listen to its rider, it’s a beating.  It’s inflicting pain which a tap with the whip wouldn’t do.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Hypothetical question: if the rider had given the horse a couple of smacks with the whip when it slowed and stopped at the water would that have been abuse?
		
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Cortez said:



			Hypothetical question: if the rider had given the horse a couple of smacks with the whip when it slowed and stopped at the water would that have been abuse?
		
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really does depend how she does it… I wouldn’t think smacking a horse repeatedly 10 times that hard is acceptable but if she gave him a smack to encourage him forward that’s different… and there is definitely a difference… one is used for encouragement one is used for punishment, too often ar shows I’ve seen horses refuses and their riders just beat the cr*p out of them out of nothing but anger, then come again, it doesn’t often seem to work…so it really depends and I definitely think there’s a huge difference between using it as encouragement and using it as anger/ punishment


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## Cortez (12 February 2022)

Hepsibah said:



			You keep asking these questions. At what point does it become unacceptable enough for _you_ to think it's excessive/abusive?
		
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That's a bit of a "I know it when I see it" question, and as has been demonstrated on this thread that varies for every person. I have witnessed some truly awful things done to horses (and other animals), and left jobs because of them. Some of the most abusive things I've seen have been caused by ignorance.



meleeka said:



			A smack with the whip would not have been abuse imo.  Hitting it 10 times so hard that you can hear the branch connecting  most definitely is abuse.  That’s not training, or reminding the horse to listen to its rider.
		
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It's a twig for goodness sake, probably less robust than any riding whip. I fail to see your logic here though: whip OK; twig bad. Losing one's temper with a horse is never an acceptable thing, although in this instance I feel it's more with the rider (not an excuse).


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## meleeka (12 February 2022)

It's a twig for goodness sake, probably less robust than any riding whip. I fail to see your logic here though: whip OK; twig bad. Losing one's temper with a horse is never an acceptable thing, although in this instance I feel it's more with the rider (not an excuse).[/QUOTE]

I agree, it’s the aggression.  Going back to the woman kicking the horse the other week, I doubt it particularly hurt the horse, certainly less  than the horse in this video, but it’s the aggression and intimidation that makes it abuse in both cases.  I also think it was more than a twig and the fact that you can hear it connect but it didn’t snap probably means it did hurt the horse.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (12 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			That's a bit of a "I know it when I see it" question, and as has been demonstrated on this thread that varies for every person. I have witnessed some truly awful things done to horses (and other animals), and left jobs because of them. Some of the most abusive things I've seen have been caused by ignorance.



It's a twig for goodness sake, probably less robust than any riding whip. I fail to see your logic here though: whip OK; twig bad. Losing one's temper with a horse is never an acceptable thing, although in this instance I feel it's more with the rider (not an excuse).
		
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Still looked and sounded like some force, either way it’s using aggression to force the horse to do something their scared of, just don’t agree with this way of training at all, and like you say it’s not an excuse to lose temper with the rider… the rider is novice and coming to him for lessons, that’s the whole point of getting lessons is they will usually be less experienced than you and are looking for your advice , if he’s not patient enough then maybe teaching isn’t for him… I’ve seen some pretty horrific abuse happening too but I don’t think it takes away from other “less” bad things that happen, I wouldn’t call this abuse personally but just poor horsemanship… and I know I’m no Olympic trainer but it’s just not worth it to me if that’s what I have to do, these horses don’t owe us anything we decide to buy/ breed them and decide to ride them and most of the time they try their absolute heart out to do what we ask …maybe I’m soft but that’s just me, this just couldn’t be me


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## cauda equina (13 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			That's a bit of a "I know it when I see it" question, and as has been demonstrated on this thread that varies for every person. I have witnessed some truly awful things done to horses (and other animals), and left jobs because of them. Some of the most abusive things I've seen have been caused by ignorance.



It's a twig for goodness sake, probably less robust than any riding whip. I fail to see your logic here though: whip OK; twig bad. Losing one's temper with a horse is never an acceptable thing, although in this instance I feel it's more with the rider (not an excuse).
		
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I've often wondered what's the point (from a training point of view) of Celebrity Clinics for low-level amateur riders
Of course the riders get bragging rights about having been 'trained' by this or that Olympian, and for the Olympian it's an extra income stream but trying to teach anything useful to a bunch of 6 strangers whose level is way below yours must be a pretty frustrating business


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## Red-1 (13 February 2022)

cauda equina said:



			I've often wondered what's the point (from a training point of view) of Celebrity Clinics for low-level amateur riders
Of course the riders get bragging rights about having been 'trained' by this or that Olympian, and for the Olympian it's an extra income stream but trying to teach anything useful to a bunch of 6 strangers whose level is way below yours must be a pretty frustrating business
		
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I've had a couple. They were fun! 

My first was Ian Stark, first time XC a new horse, my first eventer. This was 22 years ago. He was FAB, had a presence, I had faith, we did great! 

The other was Lucinda Green, an indoor XC one. She was also FAB. Did really technical stuff, the like I wouldn't have said we could do. She also had presence. 

I don't know about you, but I do my horses for fun, and both clinics were fun. They were also people who were, to me, famous, and it meant I could see them in a non creepy atmosphere. I had faith in their knowledge. They were both very organised: we were grouped in suitable bands of knowledge; we did a get to know you chat; we did a directed warmup; were assessed jumping; made progress; achieved things I wasn't expecting. 

I also have private lessons with successful people sometimes, as well as people who others wouldn't know. At no time would I expect someone on the ground to beat my horse.


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## luckyoldme (13 February 2022)

chocolategirl said:



			Can I ask what you mean by, ‘I know it’s the DM’ but……………..
		
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Standard forum language for I would never ever buy or subscribe to the daily mail, however I stumbled across this article by accident and thought you might be interested.


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## Red-1 (13 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			That's a bit of a "I know it when I see it" question, and as has been demonstrated on this thread that varies for every person. I have witnessed some truly awful things done to horses (and other animals), and left jobs because of them. Some of the most abusive things I've seen have been caused by ignorance.



It's a twig for goodness sake, probably less robust than any riding whip. I fail to see your logic here though: whip OK; twig bad. Losing one's temper with a horse is never an acceptable thing, although in this instance I feel it's more with the rider (not an excuse).
		
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It is kind of set down officially too though. A long time since I was eventing (2014) but I imagine the rule is still a maximum of 3 hits per fence? From memory, it was up to 3 hits, not at the majority of fences, and no marks to be left. Oh, and it would have to be with a whip as opposed to a branch off a tree. These days, I believe it also has to be a padded whip, of a certain length.

In no case would hitting from the ground be acceptable, whilst a rider was on board.

I also wouldn't slate the rider for her riding. Yes, she was sitting a little passenger-like. However, she was there to learn. The horse and rider were going sweetly enough together. The horse wasn't confident. With the combined level of skill and confidence, it would have taken a while to be confident, as in, not just the one session. They could have built the confidence together. They may well always have been hesitant, until both the horse and the rider became committed to go. They may never have got into new water down a step, but that would have been their learning path. Walloping the horse with a branch is not a satisfactory answer. I also don't think it would help accelerate the learning process as I don't think it would make the horse more confident to approach water the next time, wouldn't have made the rider more effective and he can't always be there.

It disturbed me that the rider, although now slating Mark Todd (as he has now admitted it is him), saw fit at the time to set the video to music, put some funny comment on and upload it to her channel. Although she now says it was awful of him (or words to that effect) it seems, on the face of it, that she thought it was light hearted. Or maybe that is a generational thing.


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## ycbm (13 February 2022)

Red-1 said:



			I've had a couple. They were fun! 

My first was Ian Stark, first time XC a new horse, my first eventer. This was 22 years ago. He was FAB, had a presence, I had faith, we did great! 

The other was Lucinda Green, an indoor XC one. She was also FAB. Did really technical stuff, the like I wouldn't have said we could do. She also had presence. 

I don't know about you, but I do my horses for fun, and both clinics were fun. They were also people who were, to me, famous, and it meant I could see them in a non creepy atmosphere. I had faith in their knowledge. They were both very organised: we were grouped in suitable bands of knowledge; we did a get to know you chat; we did a directed warmup; were assessed jumping; made progress; achieved things I wasn't expecting. 

I also have private lessons with successful people sometimes, as well as people who others wouldn't know. At no time would I expect someone on the ground to beat my horse.
		
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And if you want to be entertained,  as well as learn,  you absolutely couldn't beat lessons with Geoff Billington. He missed his vocation as a stand up comedian 🤣


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## luckyoldme (13 February 2022)

What a horrible video and Evan more shocking that he came out with his stupid statement.
He apologises to the horse? Did he actually find the horse he abused two years ago and say sorry to it? What was the horse's reply? 
What a complete and utter twat and what a shame that he is treat with any sort of respect at all .


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## Red-1 (13 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			And if you want to be entertained,  as well as learn,  you absolutely can't beat lessons with Geoff Billington. His missed his vocation as a stand up comedian 🤣
		
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I have done! But that was SJ.

Again, we were thoroughly organised, he had a load of help for us, I ended up jumping round a course of fences at 4', on a ID 4yo, who had not done THAT before!

he did it by simply getting us to ride forwards, with a suitably curvy course, and a placing pole before every fence, at around 21ft.

Horses and riders became forward, used hocks, saw strides and sailed over.

And yes, he was VERY entertaining. It was huuuuuge fun.

ETA- And no, I don't think that the 1 hour lesson and few fences that were put uuuuuuuup at the end did the horse any harm at all. And no, we put them back to 2'9 in our own training sessions afterwards!


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## Sandstone1 (13 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			I'm neither. Look, don't get me wrong,  I am utterly opposed to abuse of any animal and I have spent a considerable part of my life working with neglected and traumatised horses, dogs and other animals. But getting all aerated about this type of rough justice is misplaced when there is so much outright nastiness out there, often unrealised or unacknowledged. One of the many reasons I left the professional training world is because I wasn't prepared to do the things many considered necessary to get horses to the top. I have NEVER resorted to whaling the a*se off a horse to get to do something, but the idea that horses are trained to high levels with nothing but sugar lumps is naive .
		
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T


Cortez said:



			Um, hasn't Mark Todd won like most of the top things in eventing? I'd say that was because of "effective training", and I'd also say he probably knows a thing or two about how to get horses to jump into water, quite possibly more than I and most of us on here do. Of course he's apologising; he'll be eaten alive if he doesn't. Sorry not sorry.

And unfortunately breaking yearlings (actually rising two, but still awful) for racing is what they do in that game.
		
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But thats the whole point is it not?   Things need to change and they will.
How is chasing a horse in to water teaching it any thing?
It is just showing it to be more afraid of the man behind with the stick than the water,
It should be taught not to be afraid of the water in the first place.
Yes Mark Todd has had huge success in eventing but at what cost to his horses?
Just because things have always been done a certain way does not mean it does not have to change.
We should evolve in our way of treating animals and if that means in time to come we do not ride then so be it.
Before anyone asks yes I do ride but I like to think I am a sympathetic rider.
Have I ever used a whip?  Yes I have in younger days before I knew better but was never comfortable doing so.  Times change and you are always going to get people who say but what about this and what about that but things will slowly change as more abuse comes to light to the general public and because of the use of mobile phones and social media that change is going to get faster.


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## minesadouble (13 February 2022)

The stand out issue for me is that if the rider disagreed with his actions so strongly why did she sit there and let it happen?? In this instance she was complicit so if abuse took place (debatable) the rider is just as guilty as MT. 
I hate this world we live in where people never open their mouths to voice an opinion unless it's on social media.


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## Tiddlypom (13 February 2022)

The rider was probably over awed by being coached by one of eventing's most  famous former competitors.

He was also behind her as he whacked the horse, she might well not have known quite what he was doing with that branch.

I have and do call out whip abuse as and when it happens, inc when FJing at BE.

I do usually carry a schooling whip, but it's only there for back up to my leg aid in a sticky situation, it's not there to beat a horse. I hardly ever use it.

I'm so very disappointed that one of my heroes could display such poor skills. I was there in the stands at Burghley 2019 when he officially retired, with a tear in my eye. I feel done over now.


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## Red-1 (13 February 2022)

minesadouble said:



			The stand out issue for me is that if the rider disagreed with his actions so strongly why did she sit there and let it happen?? In this instance she was complicit so if abuse took place (debatable) the rider is just as guilty as MT.
I hate this world we live in where people never open their mouths to voice an opinion unless it's on social media.
		
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I saw an Olympic event rider beating a horse unmercifully, when I had taken my own horse for a lesson at a venue. It was 2012, just before the London Games.

I was riding my own horse, my lesson had just finished, my trainer left the arena and I was walking mine off to cool down. The other, visiting, rider came into the area, the horse initially looked to be working well, but then did something to displease the rider. The rider beat it with a whip, including round the head, then got off and toecapped it in the tummy, beat it from the ground, got back on, did some more, got off AGAIN to kick it...

I was aghast!

BUT - it was a big man with a whip, in a foul temper. My own horse was shaking and wanting to spin in fear. I had my hands full. I *could* still have shouted out, but I don't think he would have stopped.

If I had had a phone, I would have filmed him, but I was cooling down from a lesson and my phone was in the box. The big, violent, foul man was also nearer the gate than me. When I could, I simply left, took my horse with me, went on a hack as I simply wanted to get away from the violence.

When I eventually got home I rang my trainer, whose place it was, and reported what I had seen. They said they didn't mind if I reported them, but they hadn't seen it, as they had left already. Some credit to them as he wouldn't have done it in front of them.

So, we have an Olympian, who would doubtless say I (low level competitor) was being silly and hysterical, and no evidence. If I had reported to the FEI, he *should* have been banned, but would not have been on a 1-1 complaint, with me being lower level, ranking, experience etc.

Backlash.

Yes, I would have feared backlash.

I later found out he had threatened to injure the (temporary) farrier, as a threat just in case he lamed the horse before the Olympics. The farrier was also older, and simply packed up and went home!

The worst bit?

2 worst bits actually.

The man is successful.

The man advertised he was setting up his own yard after this, and was promoting his sympathetic training methods.

Who is he?

I still fear backlash and won't say. Other that it wasn't a team GB rider.

Had he threatened violence on my own horse, I would simply have walked away. But I am older than this rider who uploaded the clip.

I hasten to add that what Mark Todd did was less than 1% of what the other rider did. I don't think he had completely lost it. I also don't think he would threaten the rider.

I am not proud that I didn't yell out, try to stop the big man, but I also forgive myself. I kept my own horse safe, and that is what I felt I could do.

Although I don't agree with what MT did, it is not on the scale of what I have seen from others, such as the man above.


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## VRIN (13 February 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			The rider was probably over awed by being coached by one of eventing's most  famous former competitors.

He was also behind her as he whacked the horse, she might well not have known quite what he was doing with that branch.
.
		
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If what the previous poster was saying that she had set the video to music and added a funny comment is true then being 'overawed' and not being aware of what was going on behind her doesn't fit with her later actions. if she was appalled by his actions then why did she post on her page with a 'positive' slant?
Sometimes we forget that we have a responsibility for our own actions too.


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## Patterdale (13 February 2022)

I can’t stand this current trend of trial by social media. I doubt very much that any of us have led a completely blame free life. 

It all feels very wrong to me when these things blow up. NO ONE in this world, not even you, makes fabulous decisions and judgements 100% of the time. It’s part of being human.

If the person filming had a problem they should have addressed it at the time or through the proper channels. This whole thing just stinks to me. And yes, I feel very sorry for MT and I’m not ashamed of that.


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## TPO (13 February 2022)

Also a bit sick of the "we have to be careful because we might be filmed" narrative too. Surely it shouldn't take the threat of being filmed to stop people beating up their horses?

Then, as seen on fb in response to a post a out this incident, you get the excuses that it was taken out of context. On fb someone rightly pointed out that in no context is what happened ok. I don't know if the tik tok video is shorter but the video that @Red-1 posted shows the build up to the attack.

I've never trained a horse to Olympic standard, heck I've never even done a BE but even a numpty like me has a tool box full of differing techniques to get a horse going through water without having to resort to "making forward/the that least scary and least painful option". A horse trained on fear isn't going to be there when you need them to.

The "victim blaming" is sneaking in too. As red explained more eloquently than I'll manage its hard, especially as a young non-olympian, to stand up to professionals in a clinic situation. If "big names" aren't capable of training people in groups at different levels then perhaps they should stop selling their services to do just that. Can hardly blame a customer for buying a service offered to them. Based on numerous reports on here many people come away with lots of positives after a clinic with a "big name".

The knots some people will tie themselves into in an attempt to excuse, quite frankly, the inexcusable is concerning and saddening.


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## Patterdale (13 February 2022)

Red-1 said:



			I later found out he had threatened to injure the (temporary) farrier, as a threat just in case he lamed the horse before the Olympics. The farrier was also older, and simply packed up and went home!
		
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‘lame this horse before the Olympic and I’ll knock your head off’ sort of thing?


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

mini_b said:



			You’d think being as good as he was he would have a better method for getting a less keen horse into water.

shameful. I read the comments and as a “horsey person” I’m embarrassed to be honest.

i am lucky in that I’ve never trained with anyone that’s made me have to be an advocate for my horse. I would have told sir mark to eff off that day I think.
		
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I would hope that I would have the courage to challenge stuff like that too but it is difficult when it is someone like Mark Todd. I used to hero worship a lot of successful equestrian riders when young. I no longer do so.


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

Red-1 said:



			I just looked on Youtube and searched Mark Todd beating horse and it came right up. Not that I am saying it is him, but that is what I searched.
		
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It came up in a news feed of mine but is easily found.


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## Patterdale (13 February 2022)

TPO NOBODY who works with animals
ay in day out for decades can hand on heart say they have never ever lost their temper or got annoyed. No one that I have ever met or heard of in a lifetime of working in the industry. No one. Not one.

It’s just that in todays world, everyone is held up to impossible standards of 100% patience and perfection at all times. It’s not realistic, you know it’s not.
Being a good person 99% of the time is pretty good going, and more than many people achieve.

I find this social media piety disgusting tbh.


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

Red-1 said:



			I don't like this video at all. Apart from anything else, the horse was going sweetly enough into the water (although I presume it had been hesitant before) when suddenly the person runs up behind it and hits it, when it was going straight in anyway (early part of the video I saw). I actually thought, "well that horse won't want to go near the water next time."

It all just seemed ineffectual and unnecessary, harmful in that the horse would feel less and less confident to approach the water's edge/hit zone,  until the poor horse did stop, then the hitting escalated into abuse. I too would have been leaving the lesson, and I know I would because I have had to brace up a XC trainer before, that I won't clobber the horse and would rather wait it out and use actual timing and finesse.

I have little finesse, so it took a fair old amount of time, but once in, the horse was confidently in, as he had actually made a decision to go in, as opposed to be running away from something even more scary. Loading is the same, people hit the horses to force them on, whereas I would spend longer on getting the horse responsive and then setting them up to be able to thoughtfully make a decision. Then the decision sticks and transfers to other situations.

I suspect the trainer was expected to 'make progress' during a lesson that would not be cheap, so used this method. Sadly, it shows something about the man that he was also happy to have it filmed, so seems confident that it is not abuse. I disagree.

I did used to use more force than I am now comfortable with, but many years ago I decided that I would rather not progress then to do it like that.

I wonder if he will put a statement out?
		
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I gather he has apologized.


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

DabDab said:



			This is why I commented as I did on the hunt rider pony kick thread. We can shout burn the witch or we can be honest that this level of unethical stuff is horrendously common in the horse world and horse sport. It is my absolute joy that I do not have to keep my horses on livery yards anymore and don't have to see it, and know the trainers and pros locally to steer clear of.

But we prefer to pretend that it is rare and seem to find it impossible to have a rational conversation about the things that contribute to it. The most frequent, persistent and pervasive abuse I have witnessed has been as a result of people trying to get their horses to move and respond like big sharp warmbloods because that (rather than good training) is seen as the key to dressage success. But say that in most horsey circles (incl on here) and you are dismissed as jealous, uninformed etc etc. And this is only the same thing - horse not naturally inclined to do a thing necessary for a particular sport gets the pressure ramped up and ramped up until it's tipped over into nothing short of physical abuse.
		
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Wish there was a love button.


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

Mule said:



			Peta are very extreme. They don't want any  livestock to exist either. I can't imagine the countryside without sheep and cows. Better to eat less meat and pay farmers more for what they produce than expecting the world to go meat free. A smaller supply of meat would get farmers better prices. And cut down on intensive farming.
		
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Love.


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## TPO (13 February 2022)

Patterdale said:



			TPO NOBODY who works with animals
ay in day out for decades can hand on heart say they have never ever lost their temper or got annoyed. No one that I have ever met or heard of in a lifetime of working in the industry. No one. Not one.

It’s just that in todays world, everyone is held up to impossible standards of 100% patience and perfection at all times. It’s not realistic, you know it’s not.
Being a good person 99% of the time is pretty good going, and more than many people achieve.

I find this social media piety disgusting tbh.
		
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There's a vast difference between getting annoyed or frustrated and beating up and/or inflicting pain on an animal. 

I've managed to get annoyed and walk away. I've managed to suitably reprimand animals without terrorising them or inflicting pain. I've managed to train horses without ever using a whip, forcing them or beating them into submission.

If an idiot like me can manage it I'm not sure why anyone else can't...or more likely, won't. 

But thanks for making it easier to know who to avoid posts from on here. Good luck with the gymnastics


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## Patterdale (13 February 2022)

Thanks. Good luck with the puritanical piety. Hope it never bites back.


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## Sossigpoker (13 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			I really hope its not him but I think it probably is.
		
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He's apologised for doing it so it is him.
I dread to think what he does when there are no cameras.


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## Sossigpoker (13 February 2022)

DabDab said:



			This is why I commented as I did on the hunt rider pony kick thread. We can shout burn the witch or we can be honest that this level of unethical stuff is horrendously common in the horse world and horse sport. It is my absolute joy that I do not have to keep my horses on livery yards anymore and don't have to see it, and know the trainers and pros locally to steer clear of.

But we prefer to pretend that it is rare and seem to find it impossible to have a rational conversation about the things that contribute to it. The most frequent, persistent and pervasive abuse I have witnessed has been as a result of people trying to get their horses to move and respond like big sharp warmbloods because that (rather than good training) is seen as the key to dressage success. But say that in most horsey circles (incl on here) and you are dismissed as jealous, uninformed etc etc. And this is only the same thing - horse not naturally inclined to do a thing necessary for a particular sport gets the pressure ramped up and ramped up until it's tipped over into nothing short of physical abuse.
		
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I just witnessed the groom at my yard beating a youngster less than year old around the face with a lead rope because it was "ignorant ". I so want to find my own place so I don't have to witness this shit any more.


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## Sossigpoker (13 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			That's a bit of a "I know it when I see it" question, and as has been demonstrated on this thread that varies for every person. I have witnessed some truly awful things done to horses (and other animals), and left jobs because of them. Some of the most abusive things I've seen have been caused by ignorance.



It's a twig for goodness sake, probably less robust than any riding whip. I fail to see your logic here though: whip OK; twig bad. Losing one's temper with a horse is never an acceptable thing, although in this instance I feel it's more with the rider (not an excuse).
		
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Doesn't matter if it's a whip or a twig , violence is violence 
If the rider was being hopeless,  he should have got on the horse himself and shown how it's done.


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## Fern007 (13 February 2022)

Sossigpoker said:



			I just witnessed the groom at my yard beating a youngster less than year old around the face with a lead rope because it was "ignorant ". I so want to find my own place so I don't have to witness this shit any more.
		
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I hope you said something.......?


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## stangs (13 February 2022)

Patterdale said:



			TPO NOBODY who works with animals
ay in day out for decades can hand on heart say they have never ever lost their temper or got annoyed. No one that I have ever met or heard of in a lifetime of working in the industry. No one. Not one.
		
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If you lose your temper, you remove yourself from the situation. It's that simple. Dismount, step away, whatever. Take some deep breaths, punch a wall if you really must. But leave the horse be. Honestly, half the time, I find things work easier after both you and the horse have had that time to process as well.  

I think the fact that you're saying losing your temper = hitting an animal just goes to show how poorly people are taught to regulate their emotions, or deal with their anger, growing up. Alternatively, it could be the doing of the "don't let the horse win" attitude that means people think they must keep battling even when both you and the horse are way past threshold, and no one's actually learning anything.


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## DabDab (13 February 2022)

I don't blame the rider, I doubt she knew he was going to do that to horse, and it happened a bit fast for her to reasonably react. If someone acquired a branch to loiter with while I rode into an obstacle then I would have been out of there pdq, but I wouldn't when I was younger 

But this is where these discussions get frustrating because people insist in talking in black and white and seem to refuse to acknowledge that this sort of stuff doesn't come out of nowhere in a vacuum. I shouldn't think MT woke up that day and thought 'hey, I think I'll go thwack a stick over some client's horse's backside today'. There is a wider culture, a common training methodology, and a history of success for this man in particular (is this kind of dodgy method part of the success? Who knows?).

Have I seen excess/unkind/unfair pressure applied through training? Yes, many many times. 
Did I call it out? Mostly no if I'm honest, unless it concerned my own horse, but even then not always yes.
Have I applied excess/unkind/unfair pressure through training? Yes. But I did always recognise it (not that that's an excuse really), and I'm not sure that many people do, they might, I don't know, people can style it out well when inside they are a bit ashamed.

I have absolutely never walloped a horse 10 times to get it into water or anything similar, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't question what I do, what I see others do, what training and results from training I passively accept. Condemn people in videos like this that appear on line absolutely, but if we questioned more in general horse industry & horse sport then we would do an awful lot more to help the situation.


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## TPO (13 February 2022)




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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

Sossigpoker said:



			I just witnessed the groom at my yard beating a youngster less than year old around the face with a lead rope because it was "ignorant ". I so want to find my own place so I don't have to witness this shit any more.
		
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I am on a livery yard.It has its little ups and downs but there is one thing I can say.I have never seen staff/liveries abuse their horses.I heard that one member of staff did so many years ago.Was caught by yard owner and sacked on the spot.


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## Rowreach (13 February 2022)

I wonder what happened to make Chloe do this now?

Could she not get a space on his next clinic?


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

eahotson said:



			I am on a livery yard.It has its little ups and downs but there is one thing I can say.I have never seen staff/liveries abuse their horses.I heard that one member of staff did so many years ago.Was caught by yard owner and sacked on the spot.
		
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Meant to say. Its one of the reasons I stick with it.


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## ester (13 February 2022)

The 'why didn't the rider call it out at the time' comments smacks of some of the george morris situation to me.

To me it's pretty obvious why people don't call out all manner of things at the time. (see also the poster on here re. Lucinda Green's language)

Also it's possible to have a new opinion on your own actions in a situation with the passage of time.


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## Sossigpoker (13 February 2022)

Fern007 said:



			I hope you said something.......?
		
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Pointless with this "groom". She'll just shout "well he shouldn't be so ignorant then ". Even when yard owner shouted at her to not hit him on the face. Bitch just shouts back at yard owner.
This goes on everywhere , this is why I dream of having my own place one day.
I see people lose their shit all the time , it is the society we live in, people have no respect for anyone or anything. Just look at the feral kids running around without any respect,  happened here just last night. When you live in a society where you do what you want and anyone with an opinion can feck off, this is what you get.


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## luckyoldme (13 February 2022)

Red-1 said:



			I saw an Olympic event rider beating a horse unmercifully, when I had taken my own horse for a lesson at a venue. It was 2012, just before the London Games.

I was riding my own horse, my lesson had just finished, my trainer left the arena and I was walking mine off to cool down. The other, visiting, rider came into the area, the horse initially looked to be working well, but then did something to displease the rider. The rider beat it with a whip, including round the head, then got off and toecapped it in the tummy, beat it from the ground, got back on, did some more, got off AGAIN to kick it...

I was aghast!

BUT - it was a big man with a whip, in a foul temper. My own horse was shaking and wanting to spin in fear. I had my hands full. I *could* still have shouted out, but I don't think he would have stopped.

If I had had a phone, I would have filmed him, but I was cooling down from a lesson and my phone was in the box. The big, violent, foul man was also nearer the gate than me. When I could, I simply left, took my horse with me, went on a hack as I simply wanted to get away from the violence.

When I eventually got home I rang my trainer, whose place it was, and reported what I had seen. They said they didn't mind if I reported them, but they hadn't seen it, as they had left already. Some credit to them as he wouldn't have done it in front of them.

So, we have an Olympian, who would doubtless say I (low level competitor) was being silly and hysterical, and no evidence. If I had reported to the FEI, he *should* have been banned, but would not have been on a 1-1 complaint, with me being lower level, ranking, experience etc.

Backlash.

Yes, I would have feared backlash.

I later found out he had threatened to injure the (temporary) farrier, as a threat just in case he lamed the horse before the Olympics. The farrier was also older, and simply packed up and went home!

The worst bit?

2 worst bits actually.

The man is successful.

The man advertised he was setting up his own yard after this, and was promoting his sympathetic training methods.

Who is he?

I still fear backlash and won't say. Other that it wasn't a team GB rider.

Had he threatened violence on my own horse, I would simply have walked away. But I am older than this rider who uploaded the clip.

I hasten to add that what Mark Todd did was less than 1% of what the other rider did. I don't think he had completely lost it. I also don't think he would threaten the rider.

I am not proud that I didn't yell out, try to stop the big man, but I also forgive myself. I kept my own horse safe, and that is what I felt I could do.

Although I don't agree with what MT did, it is not on the scale of what I have seen from others, such as the man above.
		
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I totally get why you didn't yell out red .
I was in the forces in the 80s and now looking back it was outrageous what we experienced and hard to explain the total lack of power we had.
These days , with phones in hand it's much easier to back up a claim and I cant be the only one who feels it's a positive thing that finally position in rank, privilege or power no longer exempts people from the boundaries of decent behaviour.
Mark Todd ...get that into you. That video exposes your true being for the person you are and also the stupid clowns who applauded your methods .


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

Red-1 said:



			I saw an Olympic event rider beating a horse unmercifully, when I had taken my own horse for a lesson at a venue. It was 2012, just before the London Games.

I was riding my own horse, my lesson had just finished, my trainer left the arena and I was walking mine off to cool down. The other, visiting, rider came into the area, the horse initially looked to be working well, but then did something to displease the rider. The rider beat it with a whip, including round the head, then got off and toecapped it in the tummy, beat it from the ground, got back on, did some more, got off AGAIN to kick it...

I was aghast!

BUT - it was a big man with a whip, in a foul temper. My own horse was shaking and wanting to spin in fear. I had my hands full. I *could* still have shouted out, but I don't think he would have stopped.

If I had had a phone, I would have filmed him, but I was cooling down from a lesson and my phone was in the box. The big, violent, foul man was also nearer the gate than me. When I could, I simply left, took my horse with me, went on a hack as I simply wanted to get away from the violence.

When I eventually got home I rang my trainer, whose place it was, and reported what I had seen. They said they didn't mind if I reported them, but they hadn't seen it, as they had left already. Some credit to them as he wouldn't have done it in front of them.

So, we have an Olympian, who would doubtless say I (low level competitor) was being silly and hysterical, and no evidence. If I had reported to the FEI, he *should* have been banned, but would not have been on a 1-1 complaint, with me being lower level, ranking, experience etc.

Backlash.

Yes, I would have feared backlash.

I later found out he had threatened to injure the (temporary) farrier, as a threat just in case he lamed the horse before the Olympics. The farrier was also older, and simply packed up and went home!

The worst bit?

2 worst bits actually.

The man is successful.

The man advertised he was setting up his own yard after this, and was promoting his sympathetic training methods.

Who is he?

I still fear backlash and won't say. Other that it wasn't a team GB rider.

Had he threatened violence on my own horse, I would simply have walked away. But I am older than this rider who uploaded the clip.

I hasten to add that what Mark Todd did was less than 1% of what the other rider did. I don't think he had completely lost it. I also don't think he would threaten the rider.

I am not proud that I didn't yell out, try to stop the big man, but I also forgive myself. I kept my own horse safe, and that is what I felt I could do.

Although I don't agree with what MT did, it is not on the scale of what I have seen from others, such as the man above.
		
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Dear God. I wish I didn't believe you but I do sadly. You did the best you could in the situation you were in.


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## Sossigpoker (13 February 2022)

eahotson said:



			I am on a livery yard.It has its little ups and downs but there is one thing I can say.I have never seen staff/liveries abuse their horses.I heard that one member of staff did so many years ago.Was caught by yard owner and sacked on the spot.
		
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This groom is the only full timer and YO can't really get any staff so she won't be sacked. I've told the YO before that this girl behaves like all girls her age I've seen , everything escalates to violence when they don't get their own way , but she just said "I've never seen her do that ".
But she's probably conveniently forgotten about it as she can't afford to do anything about it as can't do the yard by herself.
I hope one day I will have my phone out and film it when the girl loses her shit.

But again,  I've seen every single young girl behave like that at some point,  it is far from rare

I got pissed off with my horse yesterday and guess what I did? I walked away to calm down.


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## tristar (13 February 2022)

just watched that video, the horse comes up to a bit of a puddle, goes oops, man rushes up to horse hits with stick, rider clutches at horses mouth so horse cannot go forwards, man hits horse again etc.

oliveira the great would have explained to them that if the horse did not like something or  was afraid, to re assure it, show it there is nothing to fear, then the horse would remember that kindness and have confidence in the rider next time it sees something scary.

i think most people would have got off and led it to the edge of the water, anyway the bloke is lucky not to have got his head kicked off


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## Sossigpoker (13 February 2022)

Someone who runs a yard around here is always being recommended for livery....but having seen her beat a horse with a whip when it didn't stand at the mounting bloc , I'd rather put mine in my garden than within a mile of her.


 Violence is just so acceptable in this society.


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## tristar (13 February 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			T

But thats the whole point is it not?   Things need to change and they will.
How is chasing a horse in to water teaching it any thing?
It is just showing it to be more afraid of the man behind with the stick than the water,
It should be taught not to be afraid of the water in the first place.
Yes Mark Todd has had huge success in eventing but at what cost to his horses?
Just because things have always been done a certain way does not mean it does not have to change.
We should evolve in our way of treating animals and if that means in time to come we do not ride then so be it.
Before anyone asks yes I do ride but I like to think I am a sympathetic rider.
Have I ever used a whip?  Yes I have in younger days before I knew better but was never comfortable doing so.  Times change and you are always going to get people who say but what about this and what about that but things will slowly change as more abuse comes to light to the general public and because of the use of mobile phones and social media that change is going to get faster.
		
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i agree completely with this way of thinking

i get the feeling there are big changes on way


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## ycbm (13 February 2022)

tristar said:



			if the horse was afraid [something], to re assure it, show it there is nothing to fear,
		
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On another thread I posted how this,  in the wrong (usually inexperienced but not always) hands, this is actually a recipe for confirming to the horse that it is right to be afraid.  And this is how the stable mentioned above ends up with a steam of horses coming in for remedial work who walk all over their owners.  

IME ignoring the behaviour (or an "oh get on with it") is far more effective than reassurance, which can be interpreted as approval of poor behaviour.  
.


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## ycbm (13 February 2022)

tristar said:



			i think most people would have got off and led it to the edge of the water, anyway the bloke is lucky not to have got his head kicked off
		
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I wouldn't have got off.  I'd have asked all the riders to go stand the other side,  because in my view that horse was refusing at least as much because it was being asked to leave the others as it was because of the step.  
.


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## tristar (13 February 2022)

Red-1 said:



			I saw an Olympic event rider beating a horse unmercifully, when I had taken my own horse for a lesson at a venue. It was 2012, just before the London Games.

I was riding my own horse, my lesson had just finished, my trainer left the arena and I was walking mine off to cool down. The other, visiting, rider came into the area, the horse initially looked to be working well, but then did something to displease the rider. The rider beat it with a whip, including round the head, then got off and toecapped it in the tummy, beat it from the ground, got back on, did some more, got off AGAIN to kick it...

I was aghast!

BUT - it was a big man with a whip, in a foul temper. My own horse was shaking and wanting to spin in fear. I had my hands full. I *could* still have shouted out, but I don't think he would have stopped.

If I had had a phone, I would have filmed him, but I was cooling down from a lesson and my phone was in the box. The big, violent, foul man was also nearer the gate than me. When I could, I simply left, took my horse with me, went on a hack as I simply wanted to get away from the violence.

When I eventually got home I rang my trainer, whose place it was, and reported what I had seen. They said they didn't mind if I reported them, but they hadn't seen it, as they had left already. Some credit to them as he wouldn't have done it in front of them.

So, we have an Olympian, who would doubtless say I (low level competitor) was being silly and hysterical, and no evidence. If I had reported to the FEI, he *should* have been banned, but would not have been on a 1-1 complaint, with me being lower level, ranking, experience etc.

Backlash.

Yes, I would have feared backlash.

I later found out he had threatened to injure the (temporary) farrier, as a threat just in case he lamed the horse before the Olympics. The farrier was also older, and simply packed up and went home!

The worst bit?

2 worst bits actually.

The man is successful.

The man advertised he was setting up his own yard after this, and was promoting his sympathetic training methods.

Who is he?

I still fear backlash and won't say. Other that it wasn't a team GB rider.

Had he threatened violence on my own horse, I would simply have walked away. But I am older than this rider who uploaded the clip.

I hasten to add that what Mark Todd did was less than 1% of what the other rider did. I don't think he had completely lost it. I also don't think he would threaten the rider.

I am not proud that I didn't yell out, try to stop the big man, but I also forgive myself. I kept my own horse safe, and that is what I felt I could do.

Although I don't agree with what MT did, it is not on the scale of what I have seen from others, such as the man above.
		
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but ask the question, ultimately, did he teach the horse anything, did he improve it, did he advance his understanding of horses,   and improve his relationship with that horse? er no, which shows the utter futility of his actions

i wish we could all be a bit braver just say something, anything, no matter who it is, when we see things


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## Red-1 (13 February 2022)

Patterdale said:



			‘lame this horse before the Olympic and I’ll knock your head off’ sort of thing?
		
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It was more graphic, violent, specific, and nasty, than that, but yes, that was the general gist.


ester said:



			Also it's possible to have a new opinion on your own actions in a situation with the passage of time.
		
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This. I have always had a 'knack' of training horses with a smaller amount of force than most. However, I have sometimes been in a situation where I have been told to do something, and felt my options were limited. I certainly have evolved and can look back and see that stuff I have done in the past was not up to my 'now' ethical standard.


tristar said:



			....

i get the feeling there are big changes on way
		
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This is true, I think, and welcome. What I worry about is the number of people who will be judged today on stuff they did on yesterday's standards.


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## tristar (13 February 2022)

i would always give the horse the benefit of the doubt,

this was a training session, i would have shown the the horse in any way possible, there was nothing to fear, 5 minutes in a lifetime is nothing, its about either showing its ok to go in the water, or convincing the horse that what the rider asks will be done because in the end what the rider asks is what the horse should do


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## Rowreach (13 February 2022)

I understand that it may be difficult in the moment to call out behaviour which can be anything on a scale from "makes you feel a bit uncomfortable" to "all out abuse", but the fact is that if we were a bit braver, then the people who go around waving sticks about or using inappropriate language would have that nipped in the bud before it becomes something far worse (or they get their names and lives ripped to shreds on SM some years later).

I was working with someone last week, very well respected and knowledgeable in the sport (not equestrian), been in the role for many years, trains and assesses a lot of coaches and coach developers.  They made a highly inappropriate comment relating to the "special" Olympics, which made me  and visibly wince - but everyone else present laughed.  Did I say anything at the time?  Nope.  Did I speak to them about it?  Nope.  Did I mention it quietly to someone else who was in a better position to mention it to them?  Yup, and they did.

Am I going to wait a couple of years and destroy them publicly on Tiktok - absolutely not.


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## tristar (13 February 2022)

Red-1 said:



			It was more graphic, violent, specific, and nasty, than that, but yes, that was the general gist.


This. I have always had a 'knack' of training horses with a smaller amount of force than most. However, I have sometimes been in a situation where I have been told to do something, and felt my options were limited. I certainly have evolved and can look back and see that stuff I have done in the past was not up to my 'now' ethical standard.


This is true, I think, and welcome. What I worry about is the number of people who will be judged today on stuff they did on yesterday's standards.
		
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well said, thats it yesterdays standards are crumbling


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## Sossigpoker (13 February 2022)

tristar said:



			well said, thats it yesterdays standards are crumbling
		
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I so hope you are right.


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## Rowreach (13 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			I wouldn't have got off.  I'd have asked all the riders to go stand the other side,  because in my view that horse was refusing at least as much because it was being asked to leave the others as it was because of the step. 
.
		
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And as that video was a snapshot, we've no idea what went on before or how often the horse had been through the water, but it looked tired right from the start (so did the rider) and both looked like they thought they'd done the job and were finished.

There've been occasions like this where I've just said nope, the horse has done enough, thank you very much.


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## luckyoldme (13 February 2022)

tristar said:



			but ask the question, ultimately, did he teach the horse anything, did he improve it, did he advance his understanding of horses,   and improve his relationship with that horse? er no, which shows the utter futility of his actions

i wish we could all be a bit braver just say something, anything, no matter who it is, when we see things
		
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Ages ago I met a guy who was well known in our area for being an unlovable rogue.he tried to muscle in on the sale of my business and was angry when I saw through him.
His horse was kept alongside mine and it shouldn't have been a problem. I didn't like him but I'm basically just a big standard person. My opinion of him shouldn't have mattered.
I tried to keep out of his way but he insisted on forcing a discussion centered round why I didn't like him. Four times I tried to walk away in a verbal attack during which he actually criticised my late father. At that point when he asked why I didn't like him I told him I thought he was a c***. 
His outrage was instant and he basked in the sympathy of all who he talked to about my disgusting behaviour. Most of them sympathised then pm d me to say well said.
That is the problem. Fence sitters are every bit as bad as the folk doing the deeds.


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## greenbean10 (13 February 2022)

I hate the video but also I am not at all surprised and I'm amazed so many people are. This kind of thing happens all. the. time. 

In top level showjumping, beating horses in training to get them over a fence / if they stop etc is not seen as a big deal. 

I appreciate watching good showjumping/eventing but IMO all you need to do is go to a few shows to see that the majority of professionals think it's okay to treat their horses like this. It is naive to think this is a rarity.


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## Goldenstar (13 February 2022)

TBh without the whole session it hard say but I would have the group at the other side of the water and the horses going round and coming towards the horses .
In low level training like that I would have all the horses going through the water first  then trotting and cantering through on their own you dont see any the rest of the session .

Always defuse problems with water break them down into bits work on each bit then put all the bits together it’s the same with ditches and coffin type questions .
Someone as famous at MT once said to me don’t ever screw up with water or ditches or it comes back to bite you on the bum .
What that person meant was if it is never make it a problem then it never is a problem you might be able to wagon a horse through an intro water but if you won’t  over an advanced .


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## tristar (13 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			On another thread I posted how this,  in the wrong (usually inexperienced but not always) hands, this is actually a recipe for confirming to the horse that it is right to be afraid.  And this is how the stable mentioned above ends up with a steam of horses coming in for remedial work who walk all over their owners.  

IME ignoring the behaviour (or an "oh get on with it") is far more effective than reassurance, which can be interpreted as approval of poor behaviour.  
.
		
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i am dealing with big, bold, intelligent horses, they understand when i say to them, its ok mate, their knees may buckle, their eyes pop, but in the end they get it, and so we go on and progress, we end up laughing about it, and in the evening they come and put their heads in my arms for a love or a scratch, which means more tome me than any rosette

i am not responsible for other peoples failure to educate their own horses


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## scats (13 February 2022)

Did the video emerge as a sort of comedy thing (I think someone said the rider had added funny music to it?) and then people didn’t like it and started sharing it, or was the rider posting this video to show that she didn’t agree with what happened?
I wonder why it is only being posted now?


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## Red-1 (13 February 2022)

tristar said:



			i am dealing with big, bold, intelligent horses, they understand when i say to them, its ok mate, their knees may buckle, their eyes pop, but in the end they get it, and so we go on and progress, we end up laughing about it, and in the evening they come and put their heads in my arms for a love or a scratch, which means more tome me than any rosette

i am not responsible for other peoples failure to educate their own horses
		
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I think it is also about finesse with timing. I'm sure that when they even 'think' forward, you take the pressure off.


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## Roxylola (13 February 2022)

I was on a clinic last spring with a well known well respected coach. A young horse known to them was there with its owner, a stablemate was also on the clinic, me and I think 1 other horse.
Said young horse ducked left repetitively over a fence, even jumping a bigger fence as an evasion. We were all "parked" to the left of the fence. After a number of attempts, a fair amount of criticism and instruction (fair but maybe harsh) from the coach I finally said maybe if we go stand more over there it will draw the horse a bit that way...
The rider on the stablemate was a bit huffy amd said well, if it makes you feel better we can. Unsurprisingly the horse was foot perfect next time. I've often both as a rider and trainer used other horses to help out a bit, it was blindingly obvious to me but hadn't occurred to the coach.

The video shows frustration and a lost temper. I have some sympathy for the coach, its not acceptable behaviour, it wasn't the way to deal with the issue, but I do think it's been blown a bit out of proportion. That doesn't mean I think its acceptable, I don't but I also don't think it makes Sir Mark an animal abuser. He got caught up and made a mistake.


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## Chianti (13 February 2022)

I'm used to go to events and shows, and watch on the TV, show jumping and eventing. I now rarely do as I'm so suspicious of the riders. After Oliver Townend and the 'win ugly' comment I sort of gave up. How that man is picked to ride for his country I have no idea. I'm suspicious of most of them. The smiles at the end of the round and the praise for the horse. I just wonder what goes on at home. I was on a yard a few years ago and a girl had a lovely gelding she'd bought to do low level eventing. He did well at a couple of events and then started stopping going down steps. She took him for a lesson with a 4 star event rider. I heard afterwards that the rider had managed to get him down steps but had to beat the s##t out of him to do so - to the extent that he marked the skin. At home the horse still stopped going down steps and when they eventually got the vet out it turned out he'd got kissing spine. The rider still competes.


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## dixie (13 February 2022)

This is a view of someone who was at the actual lesson - not me but copied from Facebook, for balance I suppose.  🙄
I’ve not actually seen the video myself.  

View on the MT video…

I have always learnt their are 2 sides to every story and the truth, but I think this one may be a megagon 😂🙈
Here is a fact I WAS IN THAT LESSON.. I watched this first hand and honestly I’m SHOCKED. Look at the offending beating stick being held by Mark Todd Eventing on a still from my video…. If nothing else this picture alone shows there is much more to the background and truth of this story. 

The reason this did not blow up sooner is quite simply because there was nothing to blow up! 
Now I’m not going to lie, the video doesn’t look great the way it is being shown now… but can you really tell the full story from a 13 second video??? Please do share the prior videos when he was poking your horse up the bum with half a tree branch and hitting the ground behind it still with all the green leaves attached… we were all laughing and joking. You represented back to the situation at least 3,4 maybe 5 times knowing that he was supposedly “beating” your horse!!??? Seriously?? And all the 20/25 spectators just watched and allowed this to happen??? Really??? And not ONE person came forward until nearly 2years on???? 
What if I told you that that stick he was using was so rotten and bug eaten that each swing it was literally snapping off and breaking with less force than the slap of a bare hand.. and that is how I saw it. Although I’d assume if I saw wrong you would have photo evidence of your horses welt/beat marks right??? 🤷‍♀️

We all have different ways of training our horses and certainly not a single person I know would “beat” their horse BUT from time to time sometimes you do get a naughty horse who needs a sharp smack. A horse who has gotten away with something for long enough will need a sharper and more persuading slap… and sadly this was the situation. This horse had switched off to the rider and Toddy was asked to fix it along with the rider agreeing. 

On the day I’m not gonna lie, we were nearly wetting ourselves.. toddy hiding in the bush… horse approached water… started slamming the anchors on and out he would pop with what ever “weapon” he could find roaring from behind to get this horse in 😂😂 Do you honestly think with his experience he would just have run behind a strange horse like that without consulting the rider?? Of course not. He knew that horse wouldn’t kick him/the rotten stick/the flappy tree because he was told by the rider! Jokes were still made about how appropriate it would be if he could hide and repeat this to help her on the actual XC course in competition 😂😂
And this horse was not scared of the water, would happily jump in/run though but just wouldn’t step in and it said no.. the rider was left at a loss.

It’s very hard for these top riders to make huge improvements in a 60 or 90min group lesson. Generally they are teaching amateur riders with big dreams. And we are privileged to be able to have snippets into their ways of riding/teaching and subtle criticism of our bad habits.
In this instance he is damned if he fixed the situation quickly because now he’s a horse abuser… damned if he took an hour to fix it another way because the other 3 riders in the group would have been super pissed at their riding time being hogged… and he is damned if he just said oh well you problem as it would then be fed back ‘even Mark Todd couldn’t get my horse to jump into water’ 🙄🙈😂

Equestrian world is so cut throat and all the snow flakes and keyboard warriors I am pretty sure have yanked/slapped/screamed at or got really frustrated with their horse from time to time. My groom once chased my nappy horse down the driveway with a straw broom stick poking and swishing it’s arse when he refused to go on a hack… at the time probably didn’t look pretty but it got the job done and that particular horse NEVER napped with me again 👏👏 and has since gone on to become the best schoolmaster for all levels of rider. Rewind… say the groom didn’t chase her and poke/swoosh her arse with a broom and her napping got worse and more dangerous and boom… meat man maybe 🤷‍♀️

I suppose my frustration here is WHY ARE WE SO QUICK TO TRY BRING EACH OTHER DOWN??? You are trying here to destroy a very kind and compassionate man who has done so much for the world of Eventing! You have edited and posted a video which does NOT tell the TRUTH and that is not fair!! 
#BEKIND


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

ester said:



			The 'why didn't the rider call it out at the time' comments smacks of some of the george morris situation to me.

To me it's pretty obvious why people don't call out all manner of things at the time. (see also the poster on here re. Lucinda Green's language)

Also it's possible to have a new opinion on your own actions in a situation with the passage of time.
		
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I read the statement by Chloe who made some important points one of which is that she was only 21years of age at that time.She did not feel able to speak up to a much older Olympian sportsman.She was also frightened of the backlash which sadly she is getting now.It would help if people had somewhere they could voice their concerns,BSJA,BHS,British eventing/Dressage etc. where people would take note rather than having to resort to twitter et.al.


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

dixie said:



			This is a view of someone who was at the actual lesson - not me but copied from Facebook, for balance I suppose.  🙄
I’ve not actually seen the video myself. 

View on the MT video…

I have always learnt their are 2 sides to every story and the truth, but I think this one may be a megagon 😂🙈
Here is a fact I WAS IN THAT LESSON.. I watched this first hand and honestly I’m SHOCKED. Look at the offending beating stick being held by Mark Todd Eventing on a still from my video…. If nothing else this picture alone shows there is much more to the background and truth of this story.

The reason this did not blow up sooner is quite simply because there was nothing to blow up!
Now I’m not going to lie, the video doesn’t look great the way it is being shown now… but can you really tell the full story from a 13 second video??? Please do share the prior videos when he was poking your horse up the bum with half a tree branch and hitting the ground behind it still with all the green leaves attached… we were all laughing and joking. You represented back to the situation at least 3,4 maybe 5 times knowing that he was supposedly “beating” your horse!!??? Seriously?? And all the 20/25 spectators just watched and allowed this to happen??? Really??? And not ONE person came forward until nearly 2years on????
What if I told you that that stick he was using was so rotten and bug eaten that each swing it was literally snapping off and breaking with less force than the slap of a bare hand.. and that is how I saw it. Although I’d assume if I saw wrong you would have photo evidence of your horses welt/beat marks right??? 🤷‍♀️

We all have different ways of training our horses and certainly not a single person I know would “beat” their horse BUT from time to time sometimes you do get a naughty horse who needs a sharp smack. A horse who has gotten away with something for long enough will need a sharper and more persuading slap… and sadly this was the situation. This horse had switched off to the rider and Toddy was asked to fix it along with the rider agreeing.

On the day I’m not gonna lie, we were nearly wetting ourselves.. toddy hiding in the bush… horse approached water… started slamming the anchors on and out he would pop with what ever “weapon” he could find roaring from behind to get this horse in 😂😂 Do you honestly think with his experience he would just have run behind a strange horse like that without consulting the rider?? Of course not. He knew that horse wouldn’t kick him/the rotten stick/the flappy tree because he was told by the rider! Jokes were still made about how appropriate it would be if he could hide and repeat this to help her on the actual XC course in competition 😂😂
And this horse was not scared of the water, would happily jump in/run though but just wouldn’t step in and it said no.. the rider was left at a loss.

It’s very hard for these top riders to make huge improvements in a 60 or 90min group lesson. Generally they are teaching amateur riders with big dreams. And we are privileged to be able to have snippets into their ways of riding/teaching and subtle criticism of our bad habits.
In this instance he is damned if he fixed the situation quickly because now he’s a horse abuser… damned if he took an hour to fix it another way because the other 3 riders in the group would have been super pissed at their riding time being hogged… and he is damned if he just said oh well you problem as it would then be fed back ‘even Mark Todd couldn’t get my horse to jump into water’ 🙄🙈😂

Equestrian world is so cut throat and all the snow flakes and keyboard warriors I am pretty sure have yanked/slapped/screamed at or got really frustrated with their horse from time to time. My groom once chased my nappy horse down the driveway with a straw broom stick poking and swishing it’s arse when he refused to go on a hack… at the time probably didn’t look pretty but it got the job done and that particular horse NEVER napped with me again 👏👏 and has since gone on to become the best schoolmaster for all levels of rider. Rewind… say the groom didn’t chase her and poke/swoosh her arse with a broom and her napping got worse and more dangerous and boom… meat man maybe 🤷‍♀️

I suppose my frustration here is WHY ARE WE SO QUICK TO TRY BRING EACH OTHER DOWN??? You are trying here to destroy a very kind and compassionate man who has done so much for the world of Eventing! You have edited and posted a video which does NOT tell the TRUTH and that is not fair!!
#BEKIND
		
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Be kind to who? The rider? The trainer ? Or the horse?


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## tristar (13 February 2022)

TPO said:



			There's a vast difference between getting annoyed or frustrated and beating up and/or inflicting pain on an animal. 

I've managed to get annoyed and walk away. I've managed to suitably reprimand animals without terrorising them or inflicting pain. I've managed to train horses without ever using a whip, forcing them or beating them into submission.

If an idiot like me can manage it I'm not sure why anyone else can't...or more likely, won't. 

But thanks for making it easier to know who to avoid posts from on here. Good luck with the gymnastics
		
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it true there is no place for violence really
when a horse is standing on your foot, or about to crush you, you react how you need to to save yourself

when you are training it there is no place for sheer violence, it shows a shortcoming in the skills department


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## TPO (13 February 2022)

dixie said:



			This is a view of someone who was at the actual lesson - not me but copied from Facebook, for balance I suppose.  🙄
I’ve not actually seen the video myself. 

View on the MT video…

I have always learnt their are 2 sides to every story and the truth, but I think this one may be a megagon 😂🙈
Here is a fact I WAS IN THAT LESSON.. I watched this first hand and honestly I’m SHOCKED. Look at the offending beating stick being held by Mark Todd Eventing on a still from my video…. If nothing else this picture alone shows there is much more to the background and truth of this story.

The reason this did not blow up sooner is quite simply because there was nothing to blow up!
Now I’m not going to lie, the video doesn’t look great the way it is being shown now… but can you really tell the full story from a 13 second video??? Please do share the prior videos when he was poking your horse up the bum with half a tree branch and hitting the ground behind it still with all the green leaves attached… we were all laughing and joking. You represented back to the situation at least 3,4 maybe 5 times knowing that he was supposedly “beating” your horse!!??? Seriously?? And all the 20/25 spectators just watched and allowed this to happen??? Really??? And not ONE person came forward until nearly 2years on????
What if I told you that that stick he was using was so rotten and bug eaten that each swing it was literally snapping off and breaking with less force than the slap of a bare hand.. and that is how I saw it. Although I’d assume if I saw wrong you would have photo evidence of your horses welt/beat marks right??? 🤷‍♀️

We all have different ways of training our horses and certainly not a single person I know would “beat” their horse BUT from time to time sometimes you do get a naughty horse who needs a sharp smack. A horse who has gotten away with something for long enough will need a sharper and more persuading slap… and sadly this was the situation. This horse had switched off to the rider and Toddy was asked to fix it along with the rider agreeing.

On the day I’m not gonna lie, we were nearly wetting ourselves.. toddy hiding in the bush… horse approached water… started slamming the anchors on and out he would pop with what ever “weapon” he could find roaring from behind to get this horse in 😂😂 Do you honestly think with his experience he would just have run behind a strange horse like that without consulting the rider?? Of course not. He knew that horse wouldn’t kick him/the rotten stick/the flappy tree because he was told by the rider! Jokes were still made about how appropriate it would be if he could hide and repeat this to help her on the actual XC course in competition 😂😂
And this horse was not scared of the water, would happily jump in/run though but just wouldn’t step in and it said no.. the rider was left at a loss.

It’s very hard for these top riders to make huge improvements in a 60 or 90min group lesson. Generally they are teaching amateur riders with big dreams. And we are privileged to be able to have snippets into their ways of riding/teaching and subtle criticism of our bad habits.
In this instance he is damned if he fixed the situation quickly because now he’s a horse abuser… damned if he took an hour to fix it another way because the other 3 riders in the group would have been super pissed at their riding time being hogged… and he is damned if he just said oh well you problem as it would then be fed back ‘even Mark Todd couldn’t get my horse to jump into water’ 🙄🙈😂

Equestrian world is so cut throat and all the snow flakes and keyboard warriors I am pretty sure have yanked/slapped/screamed at or got really frustrated with their horse from time to time. My groom once chased my nappy horse down the driveway with a straw broom stick poking and swishing it’s arse when he refused to go on a hack… at the time probably didn’t look pretty but it got the job done and that particular horse NEVER napped with me again 👏👏 and has since gone on to become the best schoolmaster for all levels of rider. Rewind… say the groom didn’t chase her and poke/swoosh her arse with a broom and her napping got worse and more dangerous and boom… meat man maybe 🤷‍♀️

I suppose my frustration here is WHY ARE WE SO QUICK TO TRY BRING EACH OTHER DOWN??? You are trying here to destroy a very kind and compassionate man who has done so much for the world of Eventing! You have edited and posted a video which does NOT tell the TRUTH and that is not fair!!
#BEKIND
		
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That reply just makes it worse IMO

Firstly people have eyes and he was whipping that horse with a branch. Surely at this point that undeniable?

Secondly, how sad that even now people still try to excuse that kind of behaviour and "training" as acceptable and that the horse "deserved" it.

Thirdly even if he had been waving a feather duster at it, is that acceptable training? To be poking a horse, hitting it, waving things and running out behind it to chase, scare and intimidate it into doing doing what they want? 

To me idiotic responses like that just confirm the depth of the sickness that there is within the horse owning/keeping/riding/training/competing sector.


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## Cortez (13 February 2022)

TPO said:



			That reply just makes it worse IMO

Firstly people have eyes and he was whipping that horse with a branch. Surely at this point that undeniable?

Secondly, how sad that even now people still try to excuse that kind of behaviour and "training" as acceptable and that the horse "deserved" it.

Thirdly even if he had been waving a feather duster at it, is that acceptable training? To be poking a horse, hitting it, waving things and running out behind it to chase, scare and intimidate it into doing doing what they want? 

To me idiotic responses like that just confirm the depth of the sickness that there is within the horse owning/keeping/riding/training/competing sector.
		
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I'd be taking the view of someone who was actually there and knows the horse and the rider over the opinions of those who weren't any day.


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## suebou (13 February 2022)

Please take five minutes to look at FB Mother Trucking Eventers post. The author was there, AT, the MT lesson and puts forward a different pov.


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## suebou (13 February 2022)

Oops, someone beat me to it!


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## TPO (13 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			I'd be taking the view of someone who was actually there and knows the horse and the rider over the opinions of those who weren't any day.
		
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She has written her take and I wouldn't say that it makes the actions acceptable just because she, and others there, found it not only acceptable but funny.

Plenty of people were there beside Hitler and I can't see myself agreeing with their take simply because they were there!


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## Cortez (13 February 2022)

TPO said:



			She has written her take and I wouldn't say that it makes the actions acceptable just because she, and others there, found it not only acceptable but funny.

Plenty of people were there beside Hitler and I can't see myself agreeing with their take simply because they were there!
		
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Whereas I'd be less keen to agree with those that weren't there at all. You know, like they do at actual trials with witnesses VS opinions.


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## TPO (13 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Whereas I'd be less keen to agree with those that weren't there at all. You know, like they do at actual trials with witnesses VS opinions.
		
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But alas even if you weren't there you can watch actual unedited video footage where you can SEE what is happening with your own eyes. Amazing that.

If you want to pur your stock in a social media blogger who thinks thatthose "techniques" used to force the horse off a water jump are fine/acceptable/funny crack on.

The sickness is epidemic, but ya know, there's worse happening in the world to other horses 🙄

Edited because "crack on" posted twice


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## EMSPony (13 February 2022)

TPO said:



			That reply just makes it worse IMO

Firstly people have eyes and he was whipping that horse with a branch. Surely at this point that undeniable?

Secondly, how sad that even now people still try to excuse that kind of behaviour and "training" as acceptable and that the horse "deserved" it.

Thirdly even if he had been waving a feather duster at it, is that acceptable training? To be poking a horse, hitting it, waving things and running out behind it to chase, scare and intimidate it into doing doing what they want?

*To me idiotic responses like that just confirm the depth of the sickness that there is within the horse owning/keeping/riding/training/competing sector.*

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Agree with this completely.


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## Patterdale (13 February 2022)

TPO said:



			But alas even if you weren't there you can watch actual unedited video footage where you can SEE what is happening with your own eyes. Amazing that.
		
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But it wasn’t unedited.

Anyway the horse went in. I bet it went in the next 20 times too. Rather than a gradual escalation of issues, stress and unhappiness every time it encountered something and said ‘no thanks.’ 

Might not be the way you’d have done it but I bet it saved this horse a lot of inexperienced stress in the long term.

It’s like the saying about the plumber who charges £200 for mending a boiler by hitting it with a hammer. ‘£200!? Says the client. All you did is hit it.’
‘Ah but I only charged a fiver for hitting it. The other £195 was for my 40 years experience allowing me to know exactly when and where.’

If only they HAD posted the unedited version…


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## Cortez (13 February 2022)

TPO said:



			But alas even if you weren't there you can watch actual unedited video footage where you can SEE what is happening with your own eyes. Amazing that.

If you want to pur your stock in a social media blogger who thinks thatthose "techniques" used to force the horse off a water jump are fine/acceptable/funny crack on.

The sickness is epidemic, but ya know, there's worse happening in the world to other horses 🙄

Edited because "crack on" posted twice
		
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But funnily enough the account of the "I was there" person chimes really well with the video as seen by me. Other interpretations may differ, but I m used to trusting my own eyes.


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## TPO (13 February 2022)

Patterdale said:



			But it wasn’t unedited
		
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Where was the editing in the video Red posted?

Admittedly it wasn't the whole lesson but 1) his actions regardless of when or why they happened are unacceptable actions against a horse even if it was "only" what happened in the video red shared 2) from the statement by the blogger Mother Trucker she implies that the whole lesson consisted of "hiding in the bushes" and running out to attack and scare the horse off the jump into the water. I fail to see how that would help his case in any way.


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## Amymay (13 February 2022)

Anyway the horse went in.
		
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But it was going in, and doing the whole thing rather sweetly.  So I fail to see the reason for what MT did - regardless of how you actually feel about what he did.


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## Patterdale (13 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			But it was going in, and doing the whole thing rather sweetly.  So I fail to see the reason for what MY did - regardless of how you actually feel about what he did.
		
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It wasn’t going in on the video I saw so I must have missed that one.


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## Cortez (13 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			But it was going in, and doing the whole thing rather sweetly.  So I fail to see the reason for what MY did - regardless of how you actually feel about what he did.
		
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We will fail to agree on this point; it was getting progressively less and less forward and had ground to a halt.


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## DabDab (13 February 2022)

Red-1 said:



			I think it is also about finesse with timing. I'm sure that when they even 'think' forward, you take the pressure off.
		
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It's interesting actually, there are some horses that you can simply humour into going forwards when they're napping (not that I would have believed it until I had one). My Arty mare was very nappy about water when she was younger, particularly water that she could hear but not see. On one occasion I came to a ramp bridge over a flowing drainage ditch and she stopped, I applied leg pressure and she said no. Flat no in that way they do that lets you know there is no discussion to be had. And then for some reason I stroked her neck, leant forwards and ruffled the hair between her ears, stroked her ear and said 'come on silly, it's just a bit of water', and quite spontaneously she started up walking and tip toes over it without me giving any further aid. 

I assumed it was a fluke but I've used the same trick in lots of situations since and it reliably gets forward motion again 🤷. 

No idea if it is something to do with my relationship with her or her personality or what...probably a combination I guess.


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## stangs (13 February 2022)

Further comments from the rider:


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## DabDab (13 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			We will fail to agree on this point; it was getting progressively less and less forward and had ground to a halt.
		
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That was just because it was asked a different question I think. It was the step down rather than the ramp that made it finally say no rather than just hesitating.


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## Red-1 (13 February 2022)

I actually feel sorry for both parties. 

I think MT was out of order, but on a scale of things, it was not exactly out and out cruelty. It was abuse of a whip, or stick, it was not good training, but not cruelty, IMO. I feel that he is being judged by what is different already from a couple of years ago. It has changed rapidly just this year due to the hunting pony/kick video and the drop kick cat video. I think MT will have reflected. I don't think he was cruel like the event rider I saw. He was silly, thoughtless and ineffectual. I think it is good that we all have a check in our behaviour, good that we have a discussion, but I think I am done discussing MT now.

I also feel sorry for the owner/rider. I won't put details, but it took all of 5 minutes with a couple of searches to find and confirm who she is. I don't know why she suddenly put this clip up after 2 years. Because of the music and caption, I don't think it was because she really thought it was abuse. I see she is one of these people who do BE90/100 and set themselves up as XXX Eventing for likes. I suspect publicity is why they have done this. And it has backfired in a way that they didn't expect.

I have done commenting on her too. 

I think both parties have much to think about, as do we all.  

If more info comes to light, maybe I will have something else to say. Buy likely not on this pair. 

I think that change in general is coming, and that is good. It is a fine line though, when change is happening and people need time to adjust. Some abuse, like the one I saw, was always cruelty, whatever age you live in. 

I am glad that I grew up in a time when any mistakes I made were less public. Social media certainly has plusses and minuses.


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## HBB (13 February 2022)

Did the lesson take place at Auchlishie, Kirriemuir (Scotland)?
This video is nearly 2 mins long and shows the run up to it being beaten.


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## ester (13 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			We will fail to agree on this point; it was getting progressively less and less forward and had ground to a halt.
		
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but would it not have been better to school the rider on how to get it keeping forwards on each round? Given that there isn't going to be a handy person with a stealth bit of bush in real life?

He also says once more, when he didn't really mean once more. As a rider I would have turned off the gas having done it once more.


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## AdorableAlice (13 February 2022)

I can't see the point of booking a horse into a clinic with an expensive high profile trainer when you haven't had the common sense to teach the horse the very basics of go forward when asked and step into a puddle.  Why waste money taking an unprepared horse to a top trainer. There is always 2 sides to a story but the video isn't pleasant.  The ability to film everything needs to be remembered these days, it was filming that caught Lyn Russell out not so long ago.

Going forwards and stepping into water is basic training, done on the long line and then under saddle at 3 and 4.  We are fortunate as we have a ford nearby and they spend plenty of time paddling around in it with a buddy to give a lead and then alone.  Get the basics in and the horse has a solid start in life.

If you are lucky enough to have good training, always prepare the horse and yourself as much as you possibly can to get the most out of your lesson is what I have learnt over the years.


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## ester (13 February 2022)

Patterdale said:



			It wasn’t going in on the video I saw so I must have missed that one.
		
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Glad we cleared that bit up I was getting confused by all the edited comments too.


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## Cortez (13 February 2022)

ester said:



			but would it not have been better to school the rider on how to get it keeping forwards on each round? Given that there isn't going to be a handy person with a stealth bit of bush in real life?

He also says once more, when he didn't really mean once more. As a rider I would have turned off the gas having done it once more.
		
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Who knows? I rather think he lost his temper with the rider and maybe he had told her multiple times already? Speculation is not useful though.


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## ester (13 February 2022)

Speculation on what?  Bit confused by that comment mine was a genuine question that if I was going for a ridden lesson I would expect the instructor to be teaching me to ride the horse, if I wanted the horse educating I'd put them on top. Is that not usual?


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

HBB said:



			Did the lesson take place at Auchlishie, Kirriemuir (Scotland)?
This video is nearly 2 mins long and shows the run up to it being beaten.







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It makes grim watching.


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## HBB (13 February 2022)

@eahotson it's really sad isn't it. There is no excuse for what he did, the horse was going in nicely up until he started beating it. 

It has been confirmed the lesson was held at Auchlishie Eventing up at Kirriemuir.


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## southerncomfort (13 February 2022)

I'm not an event rider or trainer. Not even close.

But in my experience (40+ years), the very best riders and trainers have happy, willing partners who will do anything the rider asks because they've always been treated fairly and considerately.

If a horse refuses to do as its asked it either doesn't understand the question or its afraid. In neither of these scenarios will the stick help unless your only goal is 'get this horse in the water this one time at any cost'.

A more helpful solution would be to break the question down and take the time it takes for the horse to understand the question and feel brave enough to want to try. For me, unless the horse is allowed to think it through and make the decision to try for himself, you might solve the 'how do I get this horse in the water right now as quickly as possible' question, but you've not solved the 'how do I help this horse be brave and unafraid and happily pop in and out of the water' question.

I think people forget how frightening entering water can be for a prey animal, and what a wonderful feeling it is when your horse overcomes its fears and tries its heart out simply because it trusts its rider. 

I'd far rather that than my horse do something simply because he's been bullied in to it and fears the repercussions if he doesn't.  Where's the joy, pleasure and pride in that?

It's a basic respect for the horse. It should underpin every single thing we do with our horses every day.


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

AdorableAlice said:



			I can't see the point of booking a horse into a clinic with an expensive high profile trainer when you haven't had the common sense to teach the horse the very basics of go forward when asked and step into a puddle.  Why waste money taking an unprepared horse to a top trainer. There is always 2 sides to a story but the video isn't pleasant.  The ability to film everything needs to be remembered these days, it was filming that caught Lyn Russell out not so long ago.

Going forwards and stepping into water is basic training, done on the long line and then under saddle at 3 and 4.  We are fortunate as we have a ford nearby and they spend plenty of time paddling around in it with a buddy to give a lead and then alone.  Get the basics in and the horse has a solid start in life.

If you are lucky enough to have good training, always prepare the horse and yourself as much as you possibly can to get the most out of your lesson is what I have learnt over the years.
		
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I agree but most of us don't come from a horsey background so we have to rely on trainers.When I wanted to do some driving I went to the Parkers.I told them when I booked and they said they preferred teaching people from scratch.


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## Tiddlypom (13 February 2022)

Who knows why that rider chose to take her horse to a MT clinic. If he's happy to take money off lower level riders, then he ought to be prepared to teach them properly. Stickiness at the water jump is hardly unusual.

MT kept telling the rider 'one more time'. The horse and rider were getting longer and more strung out as they kept thinking that they'd finished.

I was always taught that the quality of the jump depends on the quality of the approach. This pair were not geared up sufficiently. I was waiting for MT to ask her to get the horse engaged and more forwards, but he didn't.

If the rider later posted the video with a funny soundtrack in an initial bid to get laughs, then I despair.

Poor horse.


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## SatansLittleHelper (13 February 2022)

At what point do we decide that a horse is being "naughty"? I used to assume horses not complying was naughtiness but over the last few years of learning, reading and watching more I have come to understand that they simply don't have the capacity to be naughty. There is ALWAYS a reason. 
If you had swum a few lengths of a pool and then hesitated about getting back in and your coach towel whipped you til you had no choice but to get in to avoid it, would that make you feel more confident??


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## Cortez (13 February 2022)

ester said:



			Speculation on what?  Bit confused by that comment mine was a genuine question that if I was going for a ridden lesson I would expect the instructor to be teaching me to ride the horse, if I wanted the horse educating I'd put them on top. Is that not usual?
		
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Sorry, didn't clarify very well: by speculation  I  meant trying to guess what was going on beforehand. I completely agree that the instructor getting on would be my preference.


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## palo1 (13 February 2022)

AdorableAlice said:



			I can't see the point of booking a horse into a clinic with an expensive high profile trainer when you haven't had the common sense to teach the horse the very basics of go forward when asked and step into a puddle.  Why waste money taking an unprepared horse to a top trainer. There is always 2 sides to a story but the video isn't pleasant.  The ability to film everything needs to be remembered these days, it was filming that caught Lyn Russell out not so long ago.

Going forwards and stepping into water is basic training, done on the long line and then under saddle at 3 and 4.  We are fortunate as we have a ford nearby and they spend plenty of time paddling around in it with a buddy to give a lead and then alone.  Get the basics in and the horse has a solid start in life.

If you are lucky enough to have good training, always prepare the horse and yourself as much as you possibly can to get the most out of your lesson is what I have learnt over the years.
		
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I've watched this a few times now.  The horse is clearly ok about going into the water as he does that earlier in the clip quite happily, but he/she doesn't want to do the step down into water.  Ideally I think you wouldn't book onto a class like this unless you were fairly confident that small steps down into and up out of water wouldn't be an issue.  You might spend some time doing that in hand and booking a 1-1 or course hire if that were an issue. Maybe the rider was unaware of this issue or hadn't known how to deal with it, hence this clinic session.   Just before the whipping bit, the horse comes round looking ok but then 3 or 4 strides out of the step the rider takes a pull - maybe because she was worried about the horse stopping and she wanted to get a bit more 'control' to deal with that; the horse looks reasonably forward if not actively cooperative at this point to my view.  I have had horses evade in exactly this way and I think it is quite common; apparantly going forward but either lacking in confidence/committment/support to actually deal with what is coming next.  And that is a horrible feeling tbh so I understand why, at the last minute the rider seems to want to control the speed/impulsion/whatever.  But inevitably in this kind of scenario she ends up riding really defensively and the horse is obviously both not 'confident' about the ask, nor is he/she particularly trying to do what is asked. The horse is then left to decide what to do as the rider has 'lost control' as it were.   Possibly the horse WOULD have launched over the little step if left to his own devices if the rider hadn't taken a pull - maybe the rider didn't feel confident about that; who knows?  Once she had taken a pull though the horse put the anchors on and the rider's lower leg came back and she wasn't able to be at all effective.  The horse is on his own and just doesn't want to step down; maybe he is tired, not confident, doesn't 'understand't the jumping down bit?   MT smacks the horse 9 times before the horse and rider sort of dribble over the edge of the step; it's just a bit crap really - the horse has not popped or jumped down but felt, clearly he/she didn't have much choice.  It's not great, it's certainly not skilled training nor good learning for horse or rider but in some circles it might constitute 'success'; the horse eventually, really badly, did what was 'required' (ie go down the step into water). 

I have no idea why MT would do that - he clearly has far more skill and empathy with horses than this suggests!  Perhaps he couldn't tackle the riding skills or the combination of rider and horse difficulty/lack of communication and partnership at this point - who knows?  It's really weak and doesn't constitute 'training' but I do think the rider has some responsibility to prepare the horse for a clinic too.   I feel for the rider as well as the horse. Maybe she should have got the horse in a better canter by circling again (before taking a pull) but perhaps she felt ok till she didn't or didn't have time to think/feel what was going on.   I don't feel that sorry for MT but perhaps he too was struggling to co-ordinate a response to this particular scenario at this moment.  We are all human, fallible, prey to others expectations and pressures.


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## AdorableAlice (13 February 2022)

eahotson said:



			I agree but most of us don't come from a horsey background so we have to rely on trainers.When I wanted to do some driving I went to the Parkers.I told them when I booked and they said they preferred teaching people from scratch.
		
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I agree, but you would have understood horses when going to Parkers for driving lessons.  I fancied driving a few years ago when we somehow ended up with a driving pony in the yard for the summer.  I went to a lady in Wales and had a few lessons in woodland but found it rather scary as I am used to having the neck and head a bit closer to me !  I did come away able to harness and balance the trap and go for an amble safely.

We all rely on professionals to teach us, but being as prepared as possible is vital.


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## milliepops (13 February 2022)

bit of a side shoot and not justifying poor treatment of the horse, but i think this highlights to me that one off clinics can be tricky and sometimes you have to accept you're not on the right horse for one, or not at the right point in that horse's learning.  

For the last 7 years i've ridden a horse that i've been really protective over for that reason, she's not the type to cope with any abrupt change in methods or to deal with excess "heat of the moment" pressure.

It's a bit of an impossible situation if we as riders aren't really aware of that.  there have been posts on here about people frustrated by lessons where they were made to do things that were "too basic", then you have this kind of example where there's an expectation that horse and rider are ready for, and will answer a cookie cutter kind of session where everyone achieves a similar outcome or has a comparable experience.

i also think it's really important that we all learn to advocate for our horses and if someone tells you to do something that doesn't sit right at the time, or for that horse, one way or the other you get out of that situation. that doesn't have to be a really big confrontation.  but it's the only way to change the "offer" in terms of training or clinics, i think.


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## Arzada (13 February 2022)

tristar said:



			oliveira the great would have explained to them that if the horse did not like something or was afraid, to re assure it, show it there is nothing to fear, then the horse would remember that kindness and have confidence in the rider next time it sees something scary.
		
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Nuno Oliveira once smoked an entire packet of cigarettes while waiting for his horse to cross a stream. I can't recall if this was in one of his books or in an article about him.


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## palo1 (13 February 2022)

milliepops said:



			bit of a side shoot and not justifying poor treatment of the horse, but i think this highlights to me that one off clinics can be tricky and sometimes you have to accept you're not on the right horse for one, or not at the right point in that horse's learning. 

For the last 7 years i've ridden a horse that i've been really protective over for that reason, she's not the type to cope with any abrupt change in methods or to deal with excess "heat of the moment" pressure.

It's a bit of an impossible situation if we as riders aren't really aware of that.  there have been posts on here about people frustrated by lessons where they were made to do things that were "too basic", then you have this kind of example where there's an expectation that horse and rider are ready for, and will answer a cookie cutter kind of session where everyone achieves a similar outcome or has a comparable experience.

i also think it's really important that we all learn to advocate for our horses and if someone tells you to do something that doesn't sit right at the time, or for that horse, one way or the other you get out of that situation. that doesn't have to be a really big confrontation.  but it's the only way to change the "offer" in terms of training or clinics, i think.
		
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Yes.  I don't think in the clip shown here that anyone is advocating for the horse at all.  MT could have said 'stick with improving the canter and the ramp into water' to keep the horse feeling confident about that ask or the rider could have said 'We still don't feel great about water, we'll stick with the ramp for now and do the step another time' or any number of other scenarios.  In this clip though, everyone looks 'stuck' in terms of expectation; the horse is stuck because it clearly doesn't want to 'do' what is asked in the way that we would all prefer to see, the rider is possibly stuck around her expectations of the outcome of the clinic, around her view of the trainer and other participants and possibly even her own riding confidence in this situation and MT looks totally stuck in terms of training 'techniques'.  I am pretty certain he has other ways of achieving what he has been able to do, with many horses, than bad old-fashioned whacking with a bit of tree.  It's just a bad 'moment' really where no-one gets anything good or really achieves or learns anything.  These things happen though it isn't great to see.  I have experienced a similar 'stuckness' with a difficult horse and with a trainer who clearly had a total brain fart; resulting in a dangerous to all sort of situation.   Trainer apologised but I never returned and I DID learn to advocate for both myself and horse as a result.   I am sure people have learnt stuff from this clip of MT as well as the experience at the time.


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## palo1 (13 February 2022)

Arzada said:



			Nuno Oliveira once smoked an entire packet of cigarettes while waiting for his horse to cross a stream. I can't recall if this was in one of his books or in an article about him.
		
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Yes and that is good practice IF you are in a position to call those shots.  If you are paying for a 1 hour clinic you and the others would be/might be reasonably ungrateful if the trainer stood by and just advised to take as long as necessary whilst smoking/ reading a novel/ taking or making business calls on their phone! Waiting it out is great but not when you are paying by the hour... It is a problem with competition and all that surrounds it in some ways. Our equestrian culture is very largely 'results' based and predicated on our time frames, competitive expectations and funds until or unless you are lucky enough to have really excellent training and little competitive 'ambition' or you have many opportunities to allow training to be of the best calibre.


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## humblepie (13 February 2022)

I would have stopped with the horse going through the water happily and worked on going down drops and then tried to put the two together with an experienced lead horse or similar and as someone else said the other horses standing the far side of the water.


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## milliepops (13 February 2022)

palo1 said:



			Yes.  I don't think in the clip shown here that anyone is advocating for the horse at all.  MT could have said 'stick with improving the canter and the ramp into water' to keep the horse feeling confident about that ask or the rider could have said 'We still don't feel great about water, we'll stick with the ramp for now and do the step another time' or any number of other scenarios.  In this clip though, everyone looks 'stuck' in terms of expectation; the horse is stuck because it clearly doesn't want to 'do' what is asked in the way that we would all prefer to see, the rider is possibly stuck around her expectations of the outcome of the clinic, around her view of the trainer and other participants and possibly even her own riding confidence in this situation and MT looks totally stuck in terms of training 'techniques'.  I am pretty certain he has other ways of achieving what he has been able to do, with many horses, than bad old-fashioned whacking with a bit of tree.  It's just a bad 'moment' really where no-one gets anything good or really achieves or learns anything.  These things happen though it isn't great to see.  I have experienced a similar 'stuckness' with a difficult horse and with a trainer who clearly had a total brain fart; resulting in a dangerous to all sort of situation.   Trainer apologised but I never returned and I DID learn to advocate for both myself and horse as a result.   I am sure people have learnt stuff from this clip of MT as well as the experience at the time.
		
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Yep and i think stuckness can happen when it's a single shared session with a fair amount of expectation from the client side, because there isn't time esp with other people in the group to explore alternatives, and SOMEONE has to speak up and say "you know what, it's a job for another day, let's move on" but people don't seem to do that very readily.

something i've really valued is developing a relationship with one trainer over the years, who knows how i tick, we know there will always be another session, it's not all one-way either as he has told me that my weird horse has taught him stuff, so it's a positive spiral .
In the past i've had fantastic one-off lessons on a more straightforward horse from other olympians  which were lifechanging but they were 1:1 and the horse's comfort zone was very big so again it was all very positive.


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

palo1 said:



			Yes.  I don't think in the clip shown here that anyone is advocating for the horse at all.  MT could have said 'stick with improving the canter and the ramp into water' to keep the horse feeling confident about that ask or the rider could have said 'We still don't feel great about water, we'll stick with the ramp for now and do the step another time' or any number of other scenarios.  In this clip though, everyone looks 'stuck' in terms of expectation; the horse is stuck because it clearly doesn't want to 'do' what is asked in the way that we would all prefer to see, the rider is possibly stuck around her expectations of the outcome of the clinic, around her view of the trainer and other participants and possibly even her own riding confidence in this situation and MT looks totally stuck in terms of training 'techniques'.  I am pretty certain he has other ways of achieving what he has been able to do, with many horses, than bad old-fashioned whacking with a bit of tree.  It's just a bad 'moment' really where no-one gets anything good or really achieves or learns anything.  These things happen though it isn't great to see.  I have experienced a similar 'stuckness' with a difficult horse and with a trainer who clearly had a total brain fart; resulting in a dangerous to all sort of situation.   Trainer apologised but I never returned and I DID learn to advocate for both myself and horse as a result.   I am sure people have learnt stuff from this clip of MT as well as the experience at the time.
		
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I totally agree.We must be prepared to act as àdvocates both for ourselves and our horses.And yes hopefully we have all learned from this.


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## TPO (13 February 2022)

Yes in an ideal world anyone turning up at a clinic would be fully prepared, horse & rider fit and there would be no gaps in training up to the level of the clinic.

I don't think I've even seen or attended a group lesson where every single participant ticked those boxes.

Isn't part of going to a clinic with any trainer to get guidance and advice? Even if that advice is that you aren't ready/need to go back to basics/have together your horse fit before attending type thing. 

As part of this ideal world we'd all have access to hills, off road riding, xc fences and water to school with and/or transport to visit suitable locations. That very often isn't thr case and people can only do the best that they can eith what they know and what they have available.

I've known many a person without access to facilities or resources for regular training save up and have a big spend day of hiring transport and booking an expensive lesson with BNT. 

Also to be specific the rider was 20/21 in the video. That is still very young to have enough experience to know what you don't know and where the holes are. As posted perhaps she did know that there were issues with water and she, understandably I'd said, presumed an olympian BNT could help with that.

Every chance I'm projecting knowing what is coming but to me the riders riding/position alters when she clocks MT with the bigger branch. In her shoes and at her age I'd definitely have reacted similar in that I would panic and have an I ternary monologue as to hoe incompetent me tells olympian MT he's wrong to have a branch ready to scare and hit my horse. I'd panic that I had to get to right for my horses sake or else he would be hit. My riding would fall to pieces, I'd tense and the horse would react then MT would do what he did.

The mother trucking blogger defends (🙄) MT by saying that it (hitting and scaring horse with branches) had been happening all lesson so perhaps rider thought they were done when she had the horse going in and out of water nicely. Who knows

But regardless of whatever music was put on top of it, how OK a random blogger thinks it is, how many times the insult snowflake gets banded about what MT did to that horse is not OK. Its not ok now and it wasn't OK two years ago.


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## Patterdale (13 February 2022)

Red-1 said:



			He was silly, thoughtless and ineffectual.
		
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It wasn’t ineffectual though - the horse went in.



Red-1 said:



			I am glad that I grew up in a time when any mistakes I made were less public. Social media certainly has plusses and minuses.
		
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Yep and me. NO one, not a single one person, not even the Dalai Lama grows up happy that their every move has been careful, well thought out, reasoned and kind, and happy for it all to be publicly shared. 
Except some HHO posters that is 😂



Arzada said:



			Nuno Oliveira once smoked an entire packet of cigarettes while waiting for his horse to cross a stream. I can't recall if this was in one of his books or in an article about him.
		
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Maybe if he’d used a different method it would have just gone in then they could have both gone and done something more productive…!
But it would be so boring if we all did everything in the same way


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## milliepops (13 February 2022)

In the case of someone who knows they have issues with training, for me the correct course of action is not to do a group session but to book a one to one where you aren't impacting on 3 or 4 other riders while you deal with the problem. Doing things like this in a group situ where everyone has coughed up ££ and been streamed in a group of (ideally) similar abilities puts everyone under too much pressure when a hiccup appears.

I can understand why big trainers offer these, but ideally there would be some thorough screening rather than just taking everyone's cash and trying to *make it happen* for them all


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## Sandstone1 (13 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			I'd be taking the view of someone who was actually there and knows the horse and the rider over the opinions of those who weren't any day.
		
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Cortez said:



			I'd be taking the view of someone who was actually there and knows the horse and the rider over the opinions of those who weren't any day.
		
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That stick was not rotten, you can hear the sound of it hitting the horse.  It was one of those whippy sticks probably willow.  If some one wacked you 10 times on the bum with that you wouldnt be sitting down for a week.


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## dunthing (13 February 2022)

AFB said:



			Does anybody have a link to the video? I’m not sure if I’m being dense but can’t see it in the article?

Struggling to believe it’s MT without seeing for myself.

Not that it makes a difference to the actions, but because he’s always been a bit of a hero :-(
		
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I met him a couple of times at Badminton and he seemed quite friendly and easy to talk to. Very disappointed to read this about him. If he had hit my old boy like that, he would have got both barrels from him.


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## Tiddlypom (13 February 2022)

Patterdale said:



			It wasn’t ineffectual though - the horse went in.
		
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Depends on what you mean by effective, though.

If you mean that the horse was eventually hassled into jumping down the step into the water that one time, then yes, it was effective.

If you mean that the horse and rider have been set up with the skills to jump confidently down steps into water in the future, then I very much doubt that. Though MT would have long taken his money and beggared off by then.


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## MurphysMinder (13 February 2022)

Deleted.   Link already been posted


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## Rowreach (13 February 2022)

eahotson said:



			I read the statement by Chloe who made some important points one of which is that she was only 21years of age at that time.She did not feel able to speak up to a much older Olympian sportsman.She was also frightened of the backlash which sadly she is getting now.It would help if people had somewhere they could voice their concerns,BSJA,BHS,British eventing/Dressage etc. where people would take note rather than having to resort to twitter et.al.
		
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"Only 21"?  but not able to advocate for her horse, if she felt MT's actions were inappropriate, but now at "only" 23 she thinks that by going public on SM and ending up all over the world press and destroying someone's life and career (and probably not doing herself any favours in the process) she's now got it right?

I'm pretty sure there were several other avenues she could have used, two years ago, to address this.


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## teapot (13 February 2022)

If you go on a little search (given how open the video owner’s social media accounts are), there’s a post from 2020 saying how he’s the only horse she knows that will jump into water happily but hates dropping in.

Maybe as @milliepops mentions re clinic situations they were all asked if there was anything specific they wanted to work on… Clinics are the worst place to do that.

A huge mess all round.


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## Backtoblack (13 February 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			I'm not an event rider or trainer. Not even close.

But in my experience (40+ years), the very best riders and trainers have happy, willing partners who will do anything the rider asks because they've always been treated fairly and considerately.

If a horse refuses to do as its asked it either doesn't understand the question or its afraid. In neither of these scenarios will the stick help unless your only goal is 'get this horse in the water this one time at any cost'.

A more helpful solution would be to break the question down and take the time it takes for the horse to understand the question and feel brave enough to want to try. For me, unless the horse is allowed to think it through and make the decision to try for himself, you might solve the 'how do I get this horse in the water right now as quickly as possible' question, but you've not solved the 'how do I help this horse be brave and unafraid and happily pop in and out of the water' question.

I think people forget how frightening entering water can be for a prey animal, and what a wonderful feeling it is when your horse overcomes its fears and tries its heart out simply because it trusts its rider.

I'd far rather that than my horse do something simply because he's been bullied in to it and fears the repercussions if he doesn't.  Where's the joy, pleasure and pride in that?

It's a basic respect for the horse. It should underpin every single thing we do with our horses every day.
		
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Best post on the whole thread. 100% agree.


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## Mule (13 February 2022)

[


milliepops said:



			bit of a side shoot and not justifying poor treatment of the horse, but i think this highlights to me that one off clinics can be tricky and sometimes you have to accept you're not on the right horse for one, or not at the right point in that horse's learning.

For the last 7 years i've ridden a horse that i've been really protective over for that reason, she's not the type to cope with any abrupt change in methods or to deal with excess "heat of the moment" pressure.

It's a bit of an impossible situation if we as riders aren't really aware of that.  there have been posts on here about people frustrated by lessons where they were made to do things that were "too basic", then you have this kind of example where there's an expectation that horse and rider are ready for, and will answer a cookie cutter kind of session where everyone achieves a similar outcome or has a comparable experience.

i also think it's really important that we all learn to advocate for our horses and if someone tells you to do something that doesn't sit right at the time, or for that horse, one way or the other you get out of that situation. that doesn't have to be a really big confrontation.  but it's the only way to change the "offer" in terms of training or clinics, i think.
		
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If he took things slower and worked on improving the horse's confidence it may have taken the length of the lesson or several lessons but  he would have got nothing done with the rest of the group. They would be unhappy then. 

It's not good on the rider's part to bring a horse with a problem to a group, one off type of lesson. If she knew about it in advance that is.


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## NinjaPony (13 February 2022)

Ugh, horrible to watch, ineffective long term and nasty experience for the horse. Would really love to see these kind of methods assigned to the rubbish bin for good, it is not an acceptable way to train an animal. Horses are such generous creatures, it breaks your heart to see it sometimes. Doesn’t matter who it is, it’s still unacceptable. In those kind of situations, a trainer should be able to work around the issue or at least de-escalate, rather than resorting to brute force. Lots of horses don’t like water, the answer is time and patience and trust, none of which were shown here. Yuck.


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## palo1 (13 February 2022)

milliepops said:



			Yep and i think stuckness can happen when it's a single shared session with a fair amount of expectation from the client side, because there isn't time esp with other people in the group to explore alternatives, and SOMEONE has to speak up and say "you know what, it's a job for another day, let's move on" but people don't seem to do that very readily.

something i've really valued is developing a relationship with one trainer over the years, who knows how i tick, we know there will always be another session, it's not all one-way either as he has told me that my weird horse has taught him stuff, so it's a positive spiral .
In the past i've had fantastic one-off lessons on a more straightforward horse from other olympians  which were lifechanging but they were 1:1 and the horse's comfort zone was very big so again it was all very positive.
		
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Yes, this, so much!!  I think that longer term investment and trust in teaching/training is something that has been quite largely 'lost' in our equestrian culture (and other places too).  There is such a drive for 'novelty',  for 'connection' with the elite as well as a desire for success that we have developed a habit, in a sense, of thinking that a super-clinic or experience will sort stuff out, put us on the right track, re-frame our riding etc etc.  And sometimes a one-off clinic can be transformational but it really doesn't work without an absolutely solid foundation of training that takes the longer view, the benefit of incremental achievement, problem solving, that has openness,  mutual trust and respect and time on it's side.   That is also something that requires real time and financial investment which is not easy for many.  It has become more 'fashionable' to shout out about how a 1 time experience 'changed everything' rather than realising that fairly grinding hard work, week in, week out with just 1 trainer and their committment is what reaps rewards.   I think it is very easy to be led astray by promises of stepping up another level or finding an entirely new way of doing things and of course those things are possible but there has to be a lot of work behind that and those improvements tend to be really specific.   

Young riders are also (I know - I was once there!!) keen to make progress and working on the basics or fundamentals can be both dry and difficult to maintain motivation.  We all need a degree of novelty, new challenge and 'hope' in our training.  We have to have 'ugly' or ropey moments as we get to grips with new stuff.  I don't think whacking a horse with a bit of branch is 'ugly' - it's just daft and ineffective but perhaps MT and this rider had a sense of wanting or needing to 'achieve' a particular outcome (ie getting off that pesky step!). 

My own students, I hope, feel free to go off and learn other, new and possibly more 'exciting' stuff with others in addition to the work they do with me (as long as they tell me what they have learnt lol)  - for me it is a privilege to do the daily grind as there is a real sense of investment in that and from a personal perspective I believe that this is the 'solid foundation' that learning new skills needs.  Rather than spending a large sum on a BNT it may be better to divvy that across a number of less pressured training sessions; allowing for the time to come back to stuff that isn't working.


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## TPO (13 February 2022)

Mule said:



			It's not good on the rider's part to bring a horse with a problem to a group, one off type of lesson.
		
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But if we didn't have "problems" why would we need trainers?

If I hadn't managed to train a horse to jump into water, and my usual selection of trainers hadn't then I too would probably think "ah, BNT is running a clinic, they'll know how to fix it given their job involves jumping into water". Usually on clinic entry forms there's a bit to write about anything you are having trouble with and want to work on. 

I don't think you can blame anyone for taking a horse with an issue, who's entry has been ACCEPTED by the people running the clinic, to a clinic.

Having been the person left sitting while one person "hogs" the lesson I do know how frustrating it is. I still don't see any reason to resort to whipping a horse in that manner and for those reasons. 

It's near impossible to get a private lesson with some trainers. In this case it's not usual for MT to be teaching in Scotland. So I don't think a private lesson with BNT is an option in many cases. 

I can't fault her logic in taking a horse with a xc issue to a xc Olympic champion!


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## Michen (13 February 2022)

Oh wow. I just watched it and assumed it would be him sort of tapping the horse repeatedly behind- not lifting the stick up in the air to get as much force as possible.

That doesn't make for pleasant viewing.


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## tristar (13 February 2022)

Arzada said:



			Nuno Oliveira once smoked an entire packet of cigarettes while waiting for his horse to cross a stream. I can't recall if this was in one of his books or in an article about him.
		
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i have a horse who will go  up to the ramp when loading, and just stands there, i have tell everyone to go back, don`t chase, in a while he decides its ok and walks on calmly and travels well, i see no need to change my system, perhaps i should buy a packet of fags

there is great wisdom in that tale about oli


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## Michen (13 February 2022)

Sorry if already posted- account from someone who was there 




__ https://www.facebook.com/mothertruckingeventers/posts/357063863090806


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## ycbm (13 February 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			If a horse refuses to do as its asked it either doesn't understand the question or its afraid.
		
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I'm not quite sure how generally you meant this,  as opposed to specific questions like training a horse to jump a step down into water,  but there are many horses which understand the question perfectly well and are not afraid who would,  if the rider allowed,  refuse to ever leave the yard where they are kept.,
.


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## ycbm (13 February 2022)

Arzada said:



			Nuno Oliveira once smoked an entire packet of cigarettes while waiting for his horse to cross a stream. I can't recall if this was in one of his books or in an article about him.
		
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What a waste of time if the horse would have happily walked on if he'd tickled it with a whip, as most will.  
.


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## palo1 (13 February 2022)

TPO said:



			But if we didn't have "problems" why would we need trainers?

If I hadn't managed to train a horse to jump into water, and my usual selection of trainers hadn't then I too would probably think "ah, BNT is running a clinic, they'll know how to fix it given their job involves jumping into water". Usually on clinic entry forms there's a bit to write about anything you are having trouble with and want to work on.

I don't think you can blame anyone for taking a horse with an issue, who's entry has been ACCEPTED by the people running the clinic, to a clinic.

Having been the person left sitting while one person "hogs" the lesson I do know how frustrating it is. I still don't see any reason to resort to whipping a horse in that manner and for those reasons.

It's near impossible to get a private lesson with some trainers. In this case it's not usual for MT to be teaching in Scotland. So I don't think a private lesson with BNT is an option in many cases.

I can't fault her logic in taking a horse with a xc issue to a xc Olympic champion!
		
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I get that too and now I really want to know why that particular horse didn't want to do the step down; it's not usually that difficult to 'teach' - I wonder why, when he/she is clearly not worried about paddling/trotting through the water the horse doesn't want to do what is a very small step down into water.   There are some interesting training and experience issues to think about here!  In the last few years we have had several horses to start here at home and they have all tackled this 'ask' differently; 1 pony - very carefully and sensibly with a tiny hop down or up; A well bred warm-blood adopted the style of  'a giant leap for mankind'  up or down (needed a brave and relaxed rider which he had thankfully), an Arab type who clearly wondered what the point was but then learnt very quickly the best, most economical way to get the job done and a Welsh Cob who didn't give it a moment's thought and acted as if she has spent her life doing this exact thing lol!  All were introduced initially in hand, very casually with no expectation of success but just a gentle enquiry, then asked to do either a hop up or hop down under saddle, with a lead and then when really confident both ways on their own.  The 'step' we use is initially a 2 foot step off or onto natural rock and then a 1 metre true 'bank' where some effort has to be put in.  We don't do it for xc competing reasons but purely because sometimes our hacking/outriding needs that skill and confidence.  As it seems quite a sequential 'teaching' task I am interested to know at what point problems or anxiety set in for this horse.


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## Cortez (13 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			What a waste of time if the horse would have happily walked on if he'd tickled it with a whip, as most will.  
.
		
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The Mestre did like his ciggies....


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## Tiddlypom (13 February 2022)

So apparently some think that you are not supposed to take a horse with a known issue to a clinic, even if you declare the issue beforehand. Clinics are supposedly not the places to sort out an issue. 

So only horses and riders who are already doing wonderfully well and need no special help should attend clinics?

Best that the organisers put that on the application form, then. Only apply for a clinic with a 'name' if you just fancy a nice day out working well within your comfort zone. We don't want to inconvenience any of the other participants, do we.


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## milliepops (13 February 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			So apparently some think that you are not supposed to take a horse with a known issue to a clinic, even if you declare the issue beforehand. Clinics are supposedly not the places to sort out an issue.

So only horses and riders who are already doing wonderfully well and need no special help should attend clinics?

Best that the organisers put that on the application form, then. Only apply for a clinic with a 'name' if you just fancy a nice day out working well within your comfort zone. We don't want to inconvenience any of the other participants, do we.
		
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I don't think that's what anyone was saying.Personally i wouldn't take a horse that i knew had a big issue that i wanted to deal with, in a group with several other riders, because it means the trainer's time can't be split up fairly - that's all.  If you were one of 4 or 5 in a group and the trainer had to spend ages on one rider while you stood around watching your £££ time passing you by, wouldn't that be a bit irritating?


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## milliepops (13 February 2022)

I'd add that i think a clinic is a good way to get a low-commitment view on the way someone trains, so you can decide if you'd like to invest in further training with them. but i wouldn't really expect a group session to be the way to get enough 1:1 attention to work through anything significant.


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## Blanche (13 February 2022)

Patterdale said:



			TPO NOBODY who works with animals
ay in day out for decades can hand on heart say they have never ever lost their temper or got annoyed. No one that I have ever met or heard of in a lifetime of working in the industry. No one. Not one.

It’s just that in todays world, everyone is held up to impossible standards of 100% patience and perfection at all times. It’s not realistic, you know it’s not.
Being a good person 99% of the time is pretty good going, and more than many people achieve.

I find this social media piety disgusting tbh.
		
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I worked with horses for decades and never beat seven types of sh!t out of a horse. It is not necessary. Please don’t tar us all with the same brush. You may not be able to control your temper but other people can. I have worked with all sorts of horses and ponies over the years, mainly youngsters but competition horses too. No where would it have been acceptable to treat an animal like this. 



TPO said:



			There's a vast difference between getting annoyed or frustrated and beating up and/or inflicting pain on an animal.

I've managed to get annoyed and walk away. I've managed to suitably reprimand animals without terrorising them or inflicting pain. I've managed to train horses without ever using a whip, forcing them or beating them into submission.

If an idiot like me can manage it I'm not sure why anyone else can't...or more likely, won't.

But thanks for making it easier to know who to avoid posts from on here. Good luck with the gymnastics
		
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 👍👍


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## Michen (13 February 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			So apparently some think that you are not supposed to take a horse with a known issue to a clinic, even if you declare the issue beforehand. Clinics are supposedly not the places to sort out an issue.

So only horses and riders who are already doing wonderfully well and need no special help should attend clinics?

Best that the organisers put that on the application form, then. Only apply for a clinic with a 'name' if you just fancy a nice day out working well within your comfort zone. We don't want to inconvenience any of the other participants, do we.
		
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Erm, I do agree with this to an extent. I would not take a horse with a known, long standing issue with ditches (for example) that I knew would need a good chunk of time to work through. I don't think it's particularly fair on other riders if you KNOW the instructor will have to spend a long chunk of time fixing an ingrained problem.

Obviously sometimes these things happen anyway but if I had a major problem I'd be telling the instructor beforehand and suggesting that unless it's quickly rectified, we move on to something else so that it can be worked on with as much time as necessary, privately.


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## Flame_ (13 February 2022)

Arzada said:



			Nuno Oliveira once smoked an entire packet of cigarettes while waiting for his horse to cross a stream. I can't recall if this was in one of his books or in an article about him.
		
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I've heard the "waiting them out" approach touted for bad loaders and nappers but it just doesn't wash with me. Doing what they're asked four hours after they were asked it is not good enough, IMO. Pressure is required, and giving the horse two clear options - do the thing or endure an unpleasant time - are good, clear messages to give horses. I think, especially on seeing that last photo, that this *looks* worse than it was. That in itself is a good, effective way of getting a horse to learn to comply with something it's reluctant to without actually *hurting* the horse.


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## palo1 (13 February 2022)

milliepops said:



			I'd add that i think a clinic is a good way to get a low-commitment view on the way someone trains, so you can decide if you'd like to invest in further training with them. but i wouldn't really expect a group session to be the way to get enough 1:1 attention to work through anything significant.
		
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This.  A clinic is a great opportunity to view a trainer's approach, achieve more 'finesse' or to see a different way of doing things but probably not to introduce something completely new or problem solve around something tricky and potentially time-consuming/something that can't be 'dealt with' in a single session.   In xc terms I might expect a BNT to provide insight into alternative lines to fences or to identify general trends in your riding that could be addressed.  I would always want a clinic with a BNT to provide a bit of 'inspiration' but it isn't really the setting for in depth discussion which might be needed if a horse has an issue about something.


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## teapot (13 February 2022)

There are problems/issues and then there are problems/issues.

If a horse has a problem so bad one of the best in the world ends up smacking it with a tree branch to get it forwards, then no maybe a clinic isn’t the best idea, for everyone involved.

Clinics with pros are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Look at the opinions some people have over Lucinda Green’s clinics, where regardless of your level, ability, competition background, she will not let you jump anything solid unless you’re safe in trot over a 50cm skinny pole. 

I know of a couple of people who have come back bemoaning her approach as ‘beneath’ them.


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## milliepops (13 February 2022)

yeah i think the key thing is what can be done as a one-off. it's a bit like magical loading training, the owner/handler has to be able to replicate it multiple times to benefit. 
Palo's example of giving lightbulb moments around lines to fences is a good one because the *rider* can benefit from that immediately - they can grasp what they've been told in that one-off session. a horse that has a problem like water probably needs more repetition in a similar set up in order to get lasting effects.

(i had a lightbulb on lines to fences in a one off session... was a coursewalk with a pro actually so no horses even involved at that point! stuck with me for life)


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## palo1 (13 February 2022)

teapot said:



			There are problems/issues and then there are problems

If a horse has a problem so bad one of the best in the world ends up smacking it with a tree branch to get it forwards, then no maybe a clinic isn’t the best idea, for everyone involved.

Clinics with pros are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Look at the opinions some people have over Lucinda Green’s clinics, where regardless of your level, ability, competition background, she will not let you jump anything solid unless you’re safe in trot over a 50cm skinny pole. 

I know of a couple of people who have come back bemoaning her approach as ‘beneath’ them.
		
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That is interesting.  It sounds like she has a particular set of 'fundamentals' that need to be in place before progressing and I reckon that is probably wise.   I know as a younger person I felt that endless lessons in walk and halt with a difficult horse were extremely tedious (and probably beneath me too hahahaha)  but the trainer was able to communicate exactly WHY these fundamentals needed to be in place before anything else was done.  And we did end up with a fabulous walk and halt lol!


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## AdorableAlice (13 February 2022)

Michen said:



			Erm, I do agree with this to an extent. I would not take a horse with a known, long standing issue with ditches (for example) that I knew would need a good chunk of time to work through. I don't think it's particularly fair on other riders if you KNOW the instructor will have to spend a long chunk of time fixing an ingrained problem.

Obviously sometimes these things happen anyway but if I had a major problem I'd be telling the instructor beforehand and suggesting that unless it's quickly rectified, we move on to something else so that it can be worked on with as much time as necessary, privately.
		
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Exactly this, a shared clinic needs to be a group of horses working at the same level with the same goals to get the very best 'value' out of the lesson.  Everyone wants to come out of the session feeling they have achieved and learnt and with homework.  Private lessons are for better for problem horses or for specific training needs.  There are some amazing trainers, not necessarily in the public eye and not household names who for me, are far better than the 'big' names for more average riders.  Trainers that you can pick the phone up to and ask a question in between lessons or coaching sessions for instance.

The BHA are now looking into the Mr Todd issue according to the racing post.  It has been a bad week for animal welfare yet again.  A drop kicked cat and an abused horse by well known public figures.


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## milliepops (13 February 2022)

palo1 said:



			That is interesting.  It sounds like she has a particular set of 'fundamentals' that need to be in place before progressing and I reckon that is probably wise.   I know as a younger person I felt that endless lessons in walk and halt with a difficult horse were extremely tedious (and probably beneath me too hahahaha)  but the trainer was able to communicate exactly WHY these fundamentals needed to be in place before anything else was done.  And we did end up with a fabulous walk and halt lol!
		
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totally off topic but my trainer tells an anecdote about training with Kyra Kyrklund,  had a GP horse and went to work on piaffe/passage transitions iirc.  she made him walk and halt all session until that was *GOOD* and at the time as a young rider he found that immensely frustrating, but as i understand it the principle is the same, if you can't walk and halt properly then you sure as hell can't expect pi/pa transitions to be any good. 
it's the "eat your vegetables" element of horse training, you have to spend time on the ultra boring for the rest to become easy, boo hoo!!


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## Sandstone1 (13 February 2022)

Its not great that one of the worlds top riders has to resort to violence.  Most of us could chase a horse and wack it with a stick.  Not much finesse there.  Wonder what they were paying him for that clinic.
Has he never heard of ending on a good note.  Had they stopped when the horse went in it would have been far better.


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## TPO (13 February 2022)

teapot said:



			If a horse has a problem so bad one of the best in the world ends up smacking it with a tree branch to get it forwards
		
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Just because MT resorted to this doesn't mean that it was the ONLY way to get the horse forward. It certainly wasn't the way to get the horse going forward confidently.

I can't see how his actions reflect on anyone other than him. 

I can't do the mental gymnastics to blame the rider for taking a horse with a xc issue to a xc clinic

Agree with michen that the problem should have been declared and discussed but a trainer shouldn't have started something they couldn't finish (without resorting to whipping the horse with a branch) and ended on a high having built the horses confidence and hopefully imparted some wisdom to the rider about how to get and keep the horse in front of their leg. 

A trainer of MTs experience should have known to call it a day at the water long before it escalated to him whipping g the horse.

Based on the statement from the "defending" mothertrucker the attack on the horse wasn't "new" and the session was spent terrorising this horse "hiding in bushes" and chasing with branches 🤯


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## palo1 (13 February 2022)

milliepops said:



			totally off topic but my trainer tells an anecdote about training with Kyra Kyrklund,  had a GP horse and went to work on piaffe/passage transitions iirc.  she made him walk and halt all session until that was *GOOD* and at the time as a young rider he found that immensely frustrating, but as i understand it the principle is the same, if you can't walk and halt properly then you sure as hell can't expect pi/pa transitions to be any good.
it's the "eat your vegetables" element of horse training, you have to spend time on the ultra boring for the rest to become easy, boo hoo!!
		
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YES!!  Eat yer veg every day.  I think that expectation of 'boring' work that needs doing has been somewhat lost as equestrianism has become so popular as a leisure activity.  We all feel entitled to have fun and enjoy it so much that unless we take training seriously on an emotional level it can feel a bit unrewarding.   I think this can be made worse too as horses are so generous and often quite prepared to put up with a not inconsiderable level of inexperience/lack of fundamentals that we can get away without always working on what is needed.  I am grateful for that though too because without that extraordinary willingness of horses and their ability to join the dots for us many of us would never have experienced the childhood thrills of riding!  We do owe it to them to invest in our own training at *every *level.


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## milliepops (13 February 2022)

palo1 said:



			YES!!  Eat yer veg every day.  I think that expectation of 'boring' work that needs doing has been somewhat lost as equestrianism has become so popular as a leisure activity.  We all feel entitled to have fun and enjoy it so much that unless we take training seriously on an emotional level it can feel a bit unrewarding.   I think this can be made worse too as horses are so generous and often quite prepared to put up with a not inconsiderable level of inexperience/lack of fundamentals that we can get away without always working on what is needed.  I am grateful for that though too because without that extraordinary willingness of horses and their ability to join the dots for us many of us would never have experienced the childhood thrills of riding!  We do owe it to them to invest in our own training at *every *level.
		
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this is a likefest but i totally agree. "it's supposed to be fun" is like fingernails down a blackboard to me  i would prefer that be replaced with it's supposed to be fair  which brings us back to the point of the thread, no it wasn't fair on the horse to do that, it wasn't fair of MT to put the horse in the position where it couldn't answer the questions in that environment and it possibly wasn't fair of the rider to not bring the session to a close before it escalated, as mentioned previously probably everyone involved has learnt a bit from this whole thing.


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## milliepops (13 February 2022)

in respect of blaming the rider, i'm not blaming the rider for the horse's mistreatment, that was solely in the hands holding that branch. but I do think that as riders we know our horses better than anyone, we have to be the ones that uphold their best interests - we might be wrong about the training but if you feel like your ethics are being compromised you're the only one who has the power to change things.

knowing your horse well puts you in a powerful position and does give you the ultimate responsibility IMO, it's why i never took my weird horse to clinics, because i knew it was the easiest way to protect her odd personality from the effects of Trainer Ego etc. If i wound up in a lesson that i believed had affected her welfare i'd blame myself as her owner first and foremost because it was in my power to leave.... of course it's also correct to criticise poor training as well.


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## Sandstone1 (13 February 2022)

Michen said:



			Sorry if already posted- account from someone who was there




__ https://www.facebook.com/mothertruckingeventers/posts/357063863090806



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Good pic of " rotten stick"  Dead rotten branches do not have leaves growing on them....


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## AdorableAlice (13 February 2022)

teapot said:



			There are problems/issues and then there are problems/issues.

If a horse has a problem so bad one of the best in the world ends up smacking it with a tree branch to get it forwards, then no maybe a clinic isn’t the best idea, for everyone involved.

Clinics with pros are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Look at the opinions some people have over Lucinda Green’s clinics, where regardless of your level, ability, competition background, she will not let you jump anything solid unless you’re safe in trot over a 50cm skinny pole.

I know of a couple of people who have come back bemoaning her approach as ‘beneath’ them.
		
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This is so right, many years ago I dressage trained with a largely unknown but highly respected trainer in Warwickshire.  She competed at Grand Prix on very ordinary or problem cast off horses and her ability to pass her knowledge on was fabulous.  I was still in walk on lesson four with my huge young ID, lots quarter turns, halts, shoulder fore etc but all walking and if made a mess she would get on.  I learnt a tremendous amount from her and have never forgotten any of it.  'And halt' is forever etched into my brain !

She always kept it simple and said to me, if you can't control him in halt and move the whole horse in walk and put him where you want him in balance and with cadence, you have no hope in trot.  Wise words and to be fair you don't need a special horse to achieve control, respect and basically correct paces.  With those in place you do have a safe horse willing to trust and listen to his rider and try for the rider.  The horse went onto medium with me, a fat, frightened and frankly crap rider.  I lost him far too young and whilst buying another horse to replace him I had two lessons with an Olympic British team member on a horse I was thinking of buying subsequently did buy. I was made to feel a nuisance, hopeless and a waste of her time withing 20 minutes of each lesson starting. 

I still bought the horse as he was very very special, he was at medium.  I took him to my lady in Warwickshire and back to walk we went because despite his level of training, I couldn't ride him and he couldn't cope with me.  A good trainer is gold dust and they don't have to be a name.


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

Rowreach said:



			"Only 21"?  but not able to advocate for her horse, if she felt MT's actions were inappropriate, but now at "only" 23 she thinks that by going public on SM and ending up all over the world press and destroying someone's life and career (and probably not doing herself any favours in the process) she's now got it right?

I'm pretty sure there were several other avenues she could have used, two years ago, to address this.
		
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21 is young but perhaps if professional bodies in the horse world (as they do in other profession)stepped up to the plate instead of ignoring everything people would go to them with their concerns rather than posting everything on social media.


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## teapot (13 February 2022)

TPO said:



			Just because MT resorted to this doesn't mean that it was the ONLY way to get the horse forward. It certainly wasn't the way to get the horse going forward confidently.
		
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None of us know what took place in the previous 55 minutes though? Maybe he tried everything else in his textbook… This is the problem of trial by social media of a 1 minute video.

I still stand by taking a possibly problematic horse to a group clinic with an unknown to you coach/trainer isn’t necessarily the best idea, nor fair on the horse.


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

AdorableAlice said:



			This is so right, many years ago I dressage trained with a largely unknown but highly respected trainer in Warwickshire.  She competed at Grand Prix on very ordinary or problem cast off horses and her ability to pass her knowledge on was fabulous.  I was still in walk on lesson four with my huge young ID, lots quarter turns, halts, shoulder fore etc but all walking and if made a mess she would get on.  I learnt a tremendous amount from her and have never forgotten any of it.  'And halt' is forever etched into my brain !

She always kept it simple and said to me, if you can't control him in halt and move the whole horse in walk and put him where you want him in balance and with cadence, you have no hope in trot.  Wise words and to be fair you don't need a special horse to achieve control, respect and basically correct paces.  With those in place you do have a safe horse willing to trust and listen to his rider and try for the rider.  The horse went onto medium with me, a fat, frightened and frankly crap rider.  I lost him far too young and whilst buying another horse to replace him I had two lessons with an Olympic British team member on a horse I was thinking of buying subsequently did buy. I was made to feel a nuisance, hopeless and a waste of her time withing 20 minutes of each lesson starting.

I still bought the horse as he was very very special, he was at medium.  I took him to my lady in Warwickshire and back to walk we went because despite his level of training, I couldn't ride him and he couldn't cope with me.  A good trainer is gold dust and they don't have to be a name.
		
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I so agree.


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## TPO (13 February 2022)

teapot said:



			None of us know what took place in the previous 55 minutes though? Maybe he tried everything else in his textbook…

This is the problem of trial by social media of a 1 minute video.
		
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Maybe he did but the answer is still NEVER the tactic that he resorted to.

"Oh poor man, he tried everything and whipping a scared horse was his only option. Its so unfair that he is being held accountable for HIS OWN actions". Cry me a river


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## Amymay (13 February 2022)

teapot said:



			None of us know what took place in the previous 55 minutes though? Maybe he tried everything else in his textbook….
		
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In which case why not say that this is something that needs quietly working on in a one to one session, to build up the confidence of horse and rider?


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

teapot said:



			None of us know what took place in the previous 55 minutes though? Maybe he tried everything else in his textbook…

This is the problem of trial by social media of a 1 minute video.
		
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I don't like trial by social media but what else can you do?Suppose I had been there,filmed it and sent the film with a complaint to British Eventing.What do you think the outcome would have been?


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## meggymoo (13 February 2022)

sky1000 said:



			That clip seems so at odds with how he came across.  He seemed so laid back and relaxed.  He looks a bit demented in that clip - in the sense that he has lost it.
		
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Basil Fawlty but without the humour?  (The one where he beat his broken down car.)


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (13 February 2022)

Shilasdair said:



			PETA want riding to be banned - so this is the first step on a road to 'cruelty free' horse keeping - where you don't ride them.
		
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So according to them all horse riding is cruel but putting a paralysed dog into a wheelchair and manually expressing it 4 x a day is fine?!   This organisation baffles me.


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## Fern007 (13 February 2022)

A friend of mine, through her connections in eventing, was given an extremely famous event horse when it retired. Obviously ridden by an extremely famous event rider. He took a while to settle but became an absolutely lovely horse. His former rider was in the area and paid a visit.  The horse became visibly distressed , friend said the change in him was awful to see. Once old rider had left horse returned to normal.


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

Fern007 said:



			A friend of mine, through her connections in eventing, was given an extremely famous event horse when it retired. Obviously ridden by an extremely famous event rider. He took a while to settle but became an absolutely lovely horse. His former rider was in the area and paid a visit.  The horse became visibly distressed , friend said the change in him was awful to see. Once old rider had left horse returned to normal.
		
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Tragic.


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## teapot (13 February 2022)

TPO said:



			Maybe he did but the answer is still NEVER the tactic that he resorted to.

"Oh poor man, he tried everything and whipping a scared horse was his only option. Its so unfair that he is being held accountable for HIS OWN actions". Cry me a river
		
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I don't think anyone is saying he shouldn't be held accountable, myself included.

But in terms of clinics and known issues, people would be naive to assume it will always be 100% nicey nicey, pink and fluffy with a pro in that setting. Pros will in my experience expect a little more and will push more too (to a point of let's call it a day, we're not getting anywhere after perhaps more pushing than someone at home would, not to beating horses levels obviously).

I just can't understand why it hasn't surfaced before now...


I was at a BHS convention one year, yes a BHS convention!, and a _very_ well known coach explained what they were about to do before starting, it was not for videoing, and if people weren't happy, to leave. It was NOWHERE near what Toddy did, nor did it involve touching a horse in any way, shape or from, but they were VERY aware of how it would look taken out of context. Something clearly forgotten in this context for sure and what is now not publicly acceptable.




Amymay said:



			In which case why not say that this is something that needs quietly working on in a one to one session, to build up the confidence of horse and rider?
		
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Playing devil's advocate, how would we know it wasn't? No one knows what was said in the heat of getting the most out of a clinic at a three figure rate no doubt.



eahotson said:



			I don't like trial by social media but what else can you do?Suppose I had been there,filmed it and sent the film with a complaint to British Eventing.What do you think the outcome would have been?
		
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Given BE's social media policy, they may well have been interested. As AA has said, the BHA are looking into it - that's the body that should be, unless Toddy is down as a BE coach?


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## babymare (13 February 2022)

Having watched the video many times I’m now not so much angry but sad. Sad a hero of mine as yet again brought our hobby/sport under the microscope of people who will only see the bad and not the good we all give and experience. Back when training if a horse was hesitant or unwilling an established horse would give a lead( one particular hunter comes to mind who babied many a young horse over jumps and gave them confidence 😃). I am also sad because I question what goes on behind closed doors at MT yard. And that’s sad because all respect has gone. Such video’s fuel the likes of PETAs screaming horse riders are cruel etc. There are many views and arguments on this post but we has a collective need to say MT actions were wrong. A sad day for eventing. A sport I love


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## Upthecreek (13 February 2022)

Do people really think that most (not all) riders at the top of their sports are as successful as they are because they build pink fluffy bonds with the horses they ride? That it’s all based on creating loving partnerships? These professionals do what they do as a job and some are prepared to do whatever it takes to get the job done. It’s hard work and they have owners to satisfy and massive financial commitments. The truth is many of them use training methods which most of us would find harsh. But they aren’t doing it as a hobby like us, their livelihood depends on them being successful in their sport so that definitely adds to the pressure.

Oliver Townend gave the explanation that he felt it was acceptable to repeatedly whip Ballaghmor Class at Badminton because he was napping for home. I was there and what I saw was a very tired horse being asked for more than he could give. An amateur rider at a lower level would have nursed that horse home or even retired. 

Mark Todd looked like he had run out of ideas and was not prepared to admit defeat. The rider should have put a stop to it. I wouldn’t have let somebody do that to my horse aged 13 never mind 21! I’ve had some really poor experiences at clinics run by big names. Their drive to achieve and succeed isn’t always compatible with amateur riders and horses doing it for fun.


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## Mule (13 February 2022)

Flame_ said:



			I've heard the "waiting them out" approach touted for bad loaders and nappers but it just doesn't wash with me. Doing what they're asked four hours after they were asked it is not good enough, IMO. Pressure is required, and giving the horse two clear options - do the thing or endure an unpleasant time - are good, clear messages to give horses. I think, especially on seeing that last photo, that this *looks* worse than it was. That in itself is a good, effective way of getting a horse to learn to comply with something it's reluctant to without actually *hurting* the horse.
		
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I've found 'waiting them out' useful for nappers. The type where applying more pressure results in them going up.  It's individual to the horse and the situation ime.
Waiting it out is still a form of pressure because the horse is still being asked the question, but it's a dialed down type of pressure.


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## Amymay (13 February 2022)

Do people really think that most (not all) riders at the top of their sports are as successful as they are because they build pink fluffy bonds with the horses they ride?
		
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How completely condescending.


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## Upthecreek (13 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			How completely condescending.
		
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Condescending to who? I do think some people are comparing what we do with what people who do it for a living do. Professional riders at the top level of their sport with ten plus horses in training do not have time to spend on the pink fluffy stuff. That’s a fact. Most of them only spend time with the horses when on their backs. They literally get on a horse that has been tacked up for them by a groom, get off and straight onto the next and repeat. They get results, often because they are prepared to use harsher methods than we would to achieve desired outcomes more quickly in training. I’m not agreeing with this, but I do know it to be true. Hence why high level professionals training amateur riders often leads to the kind of thing seen in the video.


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## Rowreach (13 February 2022)

eahotson said:



			21 is young but perhaps if professional bodies in the horse world (as they do in other profession)stepped up to the plate instead of ignoring everything people would go to them with their concerns rather than posting everything on social media.
		
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And did she express her concerns at the time, or did she edit a clip of the incident with jolly music attached and have a laugh about it with her mates?  Until two years later when she decides to upload the whole thing on TikTok with presumably no idea of the consequences (because she is now as much in the spotlight as he is).

I detest any form of cruelty, but I bl**dy loathe trial by social media.


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## Amymay (13 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Condescending to who? I do think some people are comparing what we do with what people who do it for a living do. Professional riders at the top level of their sport with ten plus horses in training do not have time to spend on the pink fluffy stuff. That’s a fact. Most of them only spend time with the horses when on their backs. They literally get on a horse that has been tacked up for them by a groom, get off and straight onto the next and repeat. They get results, often because they are prepared to use harsher methods than we would to achieve desired outcomes more quickly in training. I’m not agreeing with this, but I do know it to be true. Hence why high level professionals training amateur riders often leads to the kind of thing seen in the video.
		
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I don’t think any of us are under any elusion about what it takes to be a professional rider.  But to condescend members by assuming that we expect ‘pink fluffy stuff’ (whatever that means) by these riders is just rude.  And not particularly pertinent to this thread.


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## eahotson (13 February 2022)

Rowreach said:



			And did she express her concerns at the time, or did she edit a clip of the incident with jolly music attached and have a laugh about it with her mates?  Until two years later when she decides to upload the whole thing on TikTok with presumably no idea of the consequences (because she is now as much in the spotlight as he is).

I detest any form of cruelty, but I bl**dy loathe trial by social media.


Rowreach said:



			And did she express her concerns at the time, or did she edit a clip of the incident with jolly music attached and have a laugh about it with her mates?  Until two years later when she decides to upload the whole thing on TikTok with presumably no idea of the consequences (because she is now as much in the spotlight as he is).

I detest any form of cruelty, but I bl**dy loathe trial by social media.
		
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She said she was afraid to stand up to an Olympian.I believe her.
		
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## luckyoldme (13 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			I don’t think any of us are under any elusion about what it takes to be a professional rider.  But to condescend members by assuming that we expect ‘pink fluffy stuff’ (whatever that means) by these riders is just rude.  And not particularly pertinent to this thread.
		
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I completely agree with this.
Plenty of us have worked in the horse world and seen it for what it really is. One or two of us walked away and had nothing more to do with it.



Upthecreek said:



			Do people really think that most (not all) riders at the top of their sports are as successful as they are because they build pink fluffy bonds with the horses they ride? That it’s all based on creating loving partnerships? These professionals do what they do as a job and some are prepared to do whatever it takes to get the job done/QUOTE]
I'm a person and no I don't expect most of the people at the top to have pink(why pink?) Fluffy bonds with their animals.
there is actually something in-between nose kissing horse owners like I was and the completely disgusting behaviour displayed in that video.


.
		
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## wills_91 (13 February 2022)

Rowreach said:



			And did she express her concerns at the time, or did she edit a clip of the incident with jolly music attached and have a laugh about it with her mates?  Until two years later when she decides to upload the whole thing on TikTok with presumably no idea of the consequences (because she is now as much in the spotlight as he is).

I detest any form of cruelty, but I bl**dy loathe trial by social media.
		
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Don't know if it's true or not but the rider has posted saying this happened at the end of the lesson, she hadn't agreed to the horse being hit and she did raise her concern at the time and was told "he wasn't hitting that hard" 

Not sure how it's trial by social media? You can clearly see him repeatedly smacking the horse, to me a tired looking horse with a rider giving mixed messages - and people are expressing they are saddened by that, what is wrong with that?


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## Rowreach (13 February 2022)

Sorry I can't quote you because it's embedded, but my point is twofold: she could have expressed her concerns with the organiser, the venue, or BE, if she felt "unable to stand up to an Olympian", but she didnt, she put the clip to music and laughed about it.

Until now, when she has "stood up" to him in a way that has destroyed his reputation and very likely most of his business interests.

I'm wondering about motivation because I don't believe it was BE or anyone else that forced her to out him globally on SM rather than make a complaint along normal channels (and she didn't two years ago because she thought it was funny).


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## Rowreach (13 February 2022)

wills_91 said:



			Don't know if it's true or not but the rider has posted saying this happened at the end of the lesson, she hadn't agreed to the horse being hit and she did raise her concern at the time and was told "he wasn't hitting that hard" 

Not sure how it's trial by social media? You can clearly see him repeatedly smacking the horse, to me a tired looking horse with a rider giving mixed messages - and people are expressing they are saddened by that, what is wrong with that?
		
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1. If so, why out the clip to music?

2. It's not just on this forum you know, it's global, companies have already binned MT products from their shelves, the equestrian authorities are reviewing him, etc etc, because of a two minute clip posted on TikTok, out of context, from a session which none of us were witness to.

And no, I don't condone whacking a horse with a branch.


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## Upthecreek (13 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			I don’t think any of us are under any elusion about what it takes to be a professional rider.  But to condescend members by assuming that we expect ‘pink fluffy stuff’ (whatever that means) by these riders is just rude.  And not particularly pertinent to this thread.
		
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Okay maybe pink fluffy stuff was the wrong description. What I was trying to say is they won’t be doing the things hobby owners like us do to build a partnership/relationship with a horse over many months or years. It’s pretty much all down to the riding and being very clear with the horse from the start that there will be (often unpleasant) consequences to not doing what is asked of them. And I do think some members are delusional about how professional sports people achieve their success and I also think it’s very relevant to a thread about Mark Todd whipping a horse repeatedly to get it to do something it clearly did not want to do. But it was not my intention to be rude to anybody.


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## NinjaPony (13 February 2022)

I’ve been thinking about this, and I think part of the issue is that professionals are held to much higher standards and scrutiny, so it’s easy to say ‘oh but you see this stuff in ordinary yards etc’, but actually it’s not the same. It’s a trade off; if you want plenty of clients, an international reputation that gives you access to top standard horses, facilities and shows, plus financial rewards, investments, merchandise etc, then you will be and should be held to a much higher standard as you are much more visible. This helps to boost your career but means that you come under greater scrutiny. It’s the old ‘with great power comes great responsibility’. If you want to be considered a role mode, top professional etc, then you have to behave like that, and whacking a horse repeatedly with a branch is not professional behaviour. And if that means we should have a bloody hard look at how top riders are training their horses then I’m all for it, because our sport is a privilege not a right. I would prefer to see action taken by the proper public bodies instead of on social media, but that requires them to get their house in order. Very few people on this forum are ‘fluffy’, but there is a big difference between a smack behind the leg as a quick correction, and repeatedly whacking a horse, seemingly in temper, and I think it does a big disservice to decent trainers to justify his behaviour by drawing a false comparison.


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## Mule (13 February 2022)

Rowreach said:



			1. If so, why out the clip to music?

2. It's not just on this forum you know, it's global, companies have already binned MT products from their shelves, the equestrian authorities are reviewing him, etc etc, because of a two minute clip posted on TikTok, out of context, from a session which none of us were witness to.

And no, I don't condone whacking a horse with a branch.
		
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The most bizarre one is the BHA investigating him. Some cognitive dissonance at work there or more likely, massively hypocritical damage control


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## Hepsibah (13 February 2022)

Rowreach said:



			.....she has "stood up" to him in a way that has destroyed his reputation and very likely most of his business interests.....
		
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She didn't do anything of the sort, he did that all by himself.


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## Rowreach (13 February 2022)

Hepsibah said:



			She didn't do anything of the sort, he did that all by himself.
		
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Ok.


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## Upthecreek (13 February 2022)

Great post NinjaPony. There are people on this forum who think it is wrong to hit a horse for any reason in any situation. There are also people who think hitting is acceptable in certain situations but not others. There are people who class all forms of hitting as abuse, some who feel there are different levels of abuse. The same goes for trainers and professionals; what is acceptable to one may not be to the next.

Whatever way you look at it Mark Todd has pretty much ruined his reputation and the high esteem people have held him in for decades.


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## tristar (13 February 2022)

if they so professional, how come he can only find a branch of a tree to whack the horse with, its the sort of thing a 10 year old might grab out the hedge to tickle a pony with



also its a very bad idea to hit a horse with the rider onboard, could provoke the horse to ditch the rider

if i whacked mine like that i am sure they would go into orbit


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## southerncomfort (13 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			I'm not quite sure how generally you meant this,  as opposed to specific questions like training a horse to jump a step down into water,  but there are many horses which understand the question perfectly well and are not afraid who would,  if the rider allowed,  refuse to ever leave the yard where they are kept.,
.
		
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Why would 'the rider allow it' ?

Horses ask questions all the time and it's our responsibility to have the answers or at least the ability to take a step back and think 'why doesn't the horse want to leave the yard?' and come up with a plan of action.

The problem arises when the rider fixates on the reaching the end goal immediately. For sure, I've no doubt you can get the horse off the yard if you decide to take a whip to it but what are you creating?  A happy willing partner who trusts the rider or a kind of learned helplessness and a constant battle of wills?  I'm genuinely confused why anyone would go immediately to def con one and use brute force when their are other options available.  I don't want an obedient servant in a horse, I want a willing partner who enjoys life and wants to go out and have fun as much as I do.

And I don't believe for a second that you would whip a horse off the yard.  I believe you have as much respect for horses as I do.


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## teapot (13 February 2022)

Mule said:



			The most bizarre one is the BHA investigating him. Some cognitive dissonance at work there or more likely, massively hypocritical damage control
		
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The fact he holds a current trainers licence is probably why.


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## Fellewell (13 February 2022)

Well, I had hoped that Sir Mark would say it wasn't him because he was at Woolloomooloo Pizza Express with Clinton Anderson. But he fessed up and I'm sure his apology to the horse was heartfelt and sincere. At his peak the man was poetry in motion in the saddle and you don't get that way without respect and understanding for the horse. You also don't get there by accepting defeat. As a trainer, his job was to get the horse to accept the bigger drop. Except it was the rider who had the problem with the bigger drop and it was obvious on the approach that it wasn't going to happen since she had mentally downed tools and had the handbrake on IMHO.
To me it looked as though the switch actually made contact 3 maybe 4 times. He could have said ok we'll leave it there and the build up would have been for nothing, the horse would have failed at the final 'hurdle' and lost confidence again. Maybe for him, as a trainer, that just wasn't an option.


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## ycbm (13 February 2022)

Fellewell said:



			Well, I had hoped that Sir Mark would say it wasn't him because he was at Woolloomooloo Pizza Express with Clinton Anderson.
		
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🤣🤣


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## ycbm (13 February 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			Why would 'the rider allow it' ?

Horses ask questions all the time and it's our responsibility to have the answers or at least the ability to take a step back and think 'why doesn't the horse want to leave the yard?' and come up with a plan of action.

The problem arises when the rider fixates on the reaching the end goal immediately. For sure, I've no doubt you can get the horse off the yard if you decide to take a whip to it but what are you creating?  A happy willing partner who trusts the rider or a kind of learned helplessness and a constant battle of wills?  I'm genuinely confused why anyone would go immediately to def con one and use brute force when their are other options available.  I don't want an obedient servant in a horse, I want a willing partner who enjoys life and wants to go out and have fun as much as I do.

And I don't believe for a second that you would whip a horse off the yard.  I believe you have as much respect for horses as I do.
		
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I'm not talking about whipping a horse to get it off the yard!   I'm talking about giving a bog standard squeeze "walk on" aid with the calves and meaning it. 

There are plenty of novice and/or fearful riders who can't muster the amount of "I mean it"  to get a horse who is neither afraid nor misunderstanding their request out of the gate on a hack. 
.


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## southerncomfort (13 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Okay maybe pink fluffy stuff was the wrong description. What I was trying to say is they won’t be doing the things hobby owners like us do to build a partnership/relationship with a horse over many months or years. It’s pretty much all down to the riding and being very clear with the horse from the start that there will be (often unpleasant) consequences to not doing what is asked of them. And I do think some members are delusional about how professional sports people achieve their success and I also think it’s very relevant to a thread about Mark Todd whipping a horse repeatedly to get it to do something it clearly did not want to do. But it was not my intention to be rude to anybody.
		
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And unfortunately this is why equestrian sports will likely die a death at some point.

It shouldn't take aggression and bullying to reach the top.

I'm under no illusions about how hard it is to make a living at the top of equestrian sport but that doesn't make that sort of treatment excusable.

Their have been so many of these stories in the media recently and it gives a really poor impression of equestrianism generally.  And that filters down to all of us and how we are viewed by the public so we have a vested interest.

I don't honestly believe that anyone on this thread would do to their horse what MT did on that video and I'm sure it makes us all feel uncomfortable to varying degrees.

I don't know...I'm just sick to my stomach of seeing these videos and having to think about what animals put up with.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (13 February 2022)

Rowreach said:



			Sorry I can't quote you because it's embedded, but my point is twofold: she could have expressed her concerns with the organiser, the venue, or BE, if she felt "unable to stand up to an Olympian", but she didnt, she put the clip to music and laughed about it.

Until now, when she has "stood up" to him in a way that has destroyed his reputation and very likely most of his business interests.

I'm wondering about motivation because I don't believe it was BE or anyone else that forced her to out him globally on SM rather than make a complaint along normal channels (and she didn't two years ago because she thought it was funny).
		
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she probably could’ve dealt with it differently but she didn’t put it to music just to laugh about it she posted saying she disapproved probably not know how badly it would blow up, but TikTok is unfortunately a dangerous game as things can go viral VERY quickly. She’s also since said she did say something at the time but was dismissed and told it wasn’t even that hard. I can totally see how it would be hard for anyone to stand up to an Olympic top rider, let alone for a young 21 year old. Of course it’s easier to do over a screen. It probably was the totally wrong thing to do but I’m not sure she was expecting it to get this much attention


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## Upthecreek (13 February 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			I don't want an obedient servant in a horse, I want a willing partner who enjoys life and wants to go out and have fun as much as I do.
		
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You’ve hit the nail on the head there. Professional riders competing at the highest level of their sport need horses that will win money and trophies to satisfy their owners and to get the chance to train and compete better horses. So their focus is solely on getting the horse to do the thing. It is not about enjoyment and having fun. I think many of them have forgotten that is why most of us ride and compete. That’s why my girls and I no longer take part in any clinics with ‘celebrity’ eventers. Absolute waste of time in my experience, although I’m sure there are some good ones.


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## Cortez (13 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			You’ve hit the nail on the head there. Professional riders competing at the highest level of their sport need horses that will win money and trophies to satisfy their owners and to get the chance to train and compete better horses. So their focus is solely on getting the horse to do the thing. It is not about enjoyment and having fun. I think many of them have forgotten that is why most of us ride and compete. That’s why my girls and I no longer take part in any clinics with ‘celebrity’ eventers. Absolute waste of time in my experience, although I’m sure there are some good ones.
		
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Have you ever met or engaged with a professional rider? You plainly have no insight into what it takes to compete at a high level.


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## AdorableAlice (13 February 2022)

teapot said:



			The fact he holds a current trainers licence is probably why.
		
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At The Races, discussed it this morning.  Matt Chapman views it as worse PR for the use of the whip in racing than the Elliott debacle.


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## ycbm (13 February 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			I don't want an obedient servant in a horse, I want a willing partner who enjoys life and wants to go out and have fun as much as I do.
		
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Me too,  and this comes right back to an earlier comment I made that as long as the horse has an independent brain in its head, no amount of "perfect" training will mean that you get the response you've trained for in every situation, and a smack with a whip is not always wrong or a failure.  
.


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## Upthecreek (13 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Have you ever met or engaged with a professional rider? You plainly have no insight into what it takes to compete at a high level.
		
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Yes quite a few actually 🤣 Please give me your wisdom on what it takes to compete at a high level as I clearly have no clue.


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## Cortez (13 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Yes quite a few actually 🤣 Please give me your wisdom on what it takes to compete at a high level as I clearly have no clue.
		
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Have you ever done so?


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## TPO (13 February 2022)

There's a difference between being aware of "what it takes" and agreeing that certain methods are acceptable. To not agree with *some* methods used by *some* people doesn't mean that someone is ignorant to whats involved in the training and management of top level horses.

Also an offensive generalisation because there are plenty of people earning their living from horses who don't resort to abuse and cruelty to achieve their aims and who are very successful at what they do.

There is a lot of scope between abusive methods and never saying no, having no boundaries, low expectations and being somewhat pink and fluffy (?).


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## Amymay (13 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Yes quite a few actually 🤣 Please give me your wisdom on what it takes to compete at a high level as I clearly have no clue.
		
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I can’t speak for Cortez, obviously.  But for the pro riders I know it’s all about passion for the horse, enjoyment of the sport and the thrill (and fun) of riding to the highest standards they can.  The pleasure of improving their horses, the relationships they form with their equine partners.


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## Amymay (13 February 2022)

NinjaPony said:



			I’ve been thinking about this, and I think part of the issue is that professionals are held to much higher standards and scrutiny, so it’s easy to say ‘oh but you see this stuff in ordinary yards etc’, but actually it’s not the same. It’s a trade off; if you want plenty of clients, an international reputation that gives you access to top standard horses, facilities and shows, plus financial rewards, investments, merchandise etc, then you will be and should be held to a much higher standard as you are much more visible. This helps to boost your career but means that you come under greater scrutiny. It’s the old ‘with great power comes great responsibility’. If you want to be considered a role mode, top professional etc, then you have to behave like that, and whacking a horse repeatedly with a branch is not professional behaviour. And if that means we should have a bloody hard look at how top riders are training their horses then I’m all for it, because our sport is a privilege not a right. I would prefer to see action taken by the proper public bodies instead of on social media, but that requires them to get their house in order. Very few people on this forum are ‘fluffy’, but there is a big difference between a smack behind the leg as a quick correction, and repeatedly whacking a horse, seemingly in temper, and I think it does a big disservice to decent trainers to justify his behaviour by drawing a false comparison.
		
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Fantastic post.


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## Cortez (13 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			I can’t speak for Cortez, obviously.  But for the pro riders I know it’s all about passion for the horse, enjoyment of the sport and the thrill (and fun) of riding to the highest standards they can.  The pleasure of improving their horses, the relationships they form with their equine partners.
		
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Pretty much this.


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## Upthecreek (13 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			I can’t speak for Cortez, obviously.  But for the pro riders I know it’s all about passion for the horse, enjoyment of the sport and the thrill (and fun) of riding to the highest standards they can.  The pleasure of improving their horses, the relationships they form with their equine partners.
		
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Of course but the bottom line is they have to produce the goods and some owners put them under pressure to make progress quickly. I was really speaking specifically about international event riders. No Cortez I have never personally competed at the highest level but I have as much right as you to speak from my own experience and what I have seen and heard (from reliable sources). My niece is an international event groom and some of the ‘training’ methods of *some* well known and respected top level riders would make most of us feel extremely uncomfortable. I have also seen it firsthand in clinics that my daughters or I have attended. I am not saying they are *all* like that by the way, but I have been surprised by how many are, and that is why we don’t participate in them any more.


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## Amymay (13 February 2022)

but I have as much right as you to speak from my own experience and what I have seen and heard
		
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Indeed you do.  As have any of us.


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## Tiddlypom (13 February 2022)

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/mark-todd-hit-horse-video-777315

_Double Olympic eventing champion turned racehorse trainer Mark said in a statement: “I wholeheartedly apologise to the horse and all involved for my actions in this video clip.

“One of the main things I preach is about establishing a mutual respect between horse and rider and that patience and kindness is the best way to get results.

“I believe this is one of the main attributes along with a great empathy with animals that has enabled me to have a long and successful career in eventing.

“I am very disappointed in myself that I did not adhere to that in this case.”_


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## wills_91 (13 February 2022)

Rowreach said:



			1. If so, why out the clip to music?

2. It's not just on this forum you know, it's global, companies have already binned MT products from their shelves, the equestrian authorities are reviewing him, etc etc, because of a two minute clip posted on TikTok, out of context, from a session which none of us were witness to.

And no, I don't condone whacking a horse with a branch.
		
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I have no idea why the clip to music, I've only watched a video on YouTube and I'm not condoning the rider, you asked a question about the rider and I answered hence why I said "I'm not sure if it's true or not"

Also, yes I am perfectly aware that there is more social media than this forum 🙄.

I am really struggling to understand the our of context remark that keeps cropping up. Please can you clarify in what context it is acceptable (in your opinion) and what context it would not be? What was your thoughts on the footballer kicking the cat, that was a short clip on social media that none of us were were present for, should we turn a blind eye to that to?


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## Upthecreek (13 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			Indeed you do.  As have any of us.
		
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Agreed. I didn’t think it was fair of Cortez to say “you plainly have no insight into what it takes to compete at a high level”. I may not share the same insight and experience as her, but that does not mean I have no insight and experience.


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## Cortez (13 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Agreed. I didn’t think it was fair of Cortez to say “you plainly have no insight into what it takes to compete at a high level”. I may not share the same insight and experience as her, but that does not mean I have no insight and experience.
		
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Yes, this is true. What is your competition experience?


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## Miss_Millie (13 February 2022)

I thought that the video was very sad to watch. You could see the fear in the horse - fear of the water and fear of the man hitting him. The horse trying to decide which was worse, and was not given a second to process it all because he was hit continuously. It was in no way productive, the horse didn't learn anything (other than fear) and nor did the rider. 

It reminds me of a group lesson I had as a child - one of the girl's ponies was being nappy. The instructor told the girl to get off of the pony. She then proceeded to hold the pony on the spot and beat the s**t out of it. We all watched in horror. We were young girls and she was an adult. She was meant to be a role model. I don't blame the girl for not advocating for her horse. I do blame the so called 'professional' Mark Todd for abusing someone else's horse.


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## Flame_ (13 February 2022)

Miss_Millie said:



			I thought that the video was very sad to watch. You could see the fear in the horse - fear of the water and fear of the man hitting him. The horse trying to decide which was worse, and was not given a second to process it all because he was hit continuously. It was in no way productive, the horse didn't learn anything (other than fear) and nor did the rider.
		
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It did learn that it could jump down into the water and not fall, die, sink, etc - whatever it was scared might happen, didn't. Sometimes horses do need making to do something to realise that doing it wouldn't be the end of the world. Glad MT has acknowledged this wasn't his finest moment though and stated his regret.


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## Miss_Millie (13 February 2022)

Flame_ said:



			It did learn that it could jump down into the water and not fall, die, sink, etc - whatever it was scared might happen, didn't. Sometimes horses do need making to do something to realise that doing it wouldn't be the end of the world. Glad MT has acknowledged this wasn't his finest moment though and stated his regret.
		
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There are better ways to make a horse learn that something isn't scary, then beat them into submission. Lazy and abusive.


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## stangs (13 February 2022)

Flame_ said:



			It did learn that it could jump down into the water and not fall, die, sink, etc - whatever it was scared might happen, didn't
		
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It had already been in the water though - repeatedly. Honestly, the more I watch it, the more I think it just needed a few seconds to process the new angle and all would have been well. 

I know I’ve needed longer than that to figure out an awkward jump/bog avoidance when out hiking. And I’m supposed to be part of the “cognitively more able” of the two species!


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## Upthecreek (13 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Yes, this is true. What is your competition experience?
		
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Why is that relevant? Does every poster need to declare their competition experience before posting on this forum? Are you only qualified to comment if you’ve reached a certain level?


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## Cortez (13 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Why is that relevant? Does every poster need to declare their competition experience before posting on this forum? Are you only qualified to comment if you’ve reached a certain level?
		
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Not at all  but it was you saying that you had all this experience of how riders at top level did things. I was just wondering what that was. I know what I  know, I don't know what you know.


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## Upthecreek (13 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Not at all  but it was you saying that you had all this experience of how riders at top level did things. I was just wondering what that was. I know what I  know, I don't know what you know.
		
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Right back at you. I know what I know, I don’t know what you know. Or  in fact what any other poster on this forum knows. That does not mean that anyone who has a different viewpoint to you is wrong. Nobody has to justify their experience to you (or anyone else).


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## SusieT (13 February 2022)

The man himself has apologised and admitted it was not the correct approach to take- so surely everyone else should just take this on board and accept it was not the correct approach?


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## Caol Ila (13 February 2022)

stangs said:



			It had already been in the water though - repeatedly. Honestly, the more I watch it, the more I think it just needed a few seconds to process the new angle and all would have been well.

I know I’ve needed longer than that to figure out an awkward jump/bog avoidance when out hiking. And I’m supposed to be part of the “cognitively more able” of the two species!
		
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I think all riders should do the Aonach Eagach Ridge in Glencoe, or similarly exposed knife-edge ridges (Crib Goch, Tower Ridge, most of the Cuillin, An Teallach, whatever), ideally carrying a backpack filled with heavy gear, just to make their balance while climbing a bit trickier. When they get to the scary exposed sections, where most people who aren't nonchalant about airy ledges go, "Oh, f*ck me, why am I here," their climbing buddies should start yelling and swearing at them, and when they hesitate at that scary pinnacle, their freinds should scream at them some more."Man up." "Just f*cking go." It isn't much fun. That's your horse! You are your horse now.

When Fin freezes at something scary on a hack, I have no problem with giving him a top rope. He's slowly getting better at 'lead climbing,' but sometimes, you just need the damned top rope.


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## palo1 (13 February 2022)

Caol Ila said:



			I think all riders should do the Aonach Eagach Ridge in Glencoe, or similarly exposed knife-edge ridges (Crib Goch, Tower Ridge, most of the Cuillin, An Teallach, whatever), ideally carrying a backpack filled with heavy gear, just to make their balance while climbing a bit trickier. When they get to the scary exposed sections, where most people who aren't nonchalant about airy ledges go, "Oh, f*ck me, why am I here," their climbing buddies should start yelling and swearing at them, and when they hesitate at that scary pinnacle, their freinds should scream at them some more."Man up." "Just f*cking go." It isn't much fun. That's your horse! You are your horse now.

When Fin freezes at something scary on a hack, I have no problem with giving him a top rope. He's slowly getting better at 'lead climbing,' but sometimes, you just need the damned top rope.
		
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I love this analogy   Generally horses enjoy learning if it is presented clearly and fairly.   Sometimes it is the right thing to say to a horse, 'Come on now mate, you can do this and I am right here with you.  Let's do it!!' Other times you really do need to say 'Hey mate, no worries - I'll take it from here and no pressure to do this today.'  Knowing which approach is required when, is horsemanship.


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## luckyoldme (13 February 2022)

Why does this have to turn so snipey, ?
What does it matter how much experience anyone has ? 
That video shows a man hitting a horse with a stick to try and convince it that there's nothing to be scared of .
Hardly someone to look up to is he ?


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## Sandstone1 (14 February 2022)

luckyoldme said:



			Why does this have to turn so snipey, ?
What does it matter how much experience anyone has ?
That video shows a man hitting a horse with a stick to try and convince it that there's nothing to be scared of .
Hardly someone to look up to is he ?
		
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Thats the horse world for you!   Always someone who thinks because they have done something a certain way for years, thats the only way and the right way.  They justify it to themselves and others because thats the way its always been done.
This is why its hard to get some horsey people to change,   A horse is scared to do something so what do we do?   Hit it to make it more scared and also in pain but its ok because thats the way we do it.....
If its questioned they try to put you down with saying things like " Well I have trained horses to such and such a level for years and its done them no harm...
Personally I would rather a horse is given the time and training so  its not scared,  either of me or of what I am asking it to do.   If it needs beating to do something then its a massive fail of your training.


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## Sandstone1 (14 February 2022)

For anyone who thinks you have to hurt animals to get them to do something, try looking up co operative care.


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## scats (14 February 2022)

I dislike the idea that you can only comment or know about these things if you’ve competed at that level.  The holy grail of horsemanship to me is not defined by how many horses you have trained or ridden at GP or how many international events you have competed at.  That’s rather insignificant to me, to be honest.  There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum from people who might never have reached those heights of success (and probably never wanted to) but are blimmin’ good horse men and women.  The welfare of the horse should always come first and just because people do worse or have done it that way for years, doesn’t mean it should continue.


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## Upthecreek (14 February 2022)

SusieT said:



			The man himself has apologised and admitted it was not the correct approach to take- so surely everyone else should just take this on board and accept it was not the correct approach?
		
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Well yes, surely anyone in his situation with that behaviour caught on camera would apologise and say they were wrong in an attempt to save their reputation and their business? I’m not sure that makes me feel any less disappointed in him. There are incorrect approaches to training and I’m sure we can all think of plenty of mistakes we’ve made. And then there is an international event rider with decades of experience resorting to chasing someone else’s horse and whacking it with a whippy stick at a clinic. I wonder what possessed him to do that? Apart from it being bad for the horse and rider it makes him look like a fool. Do people think it’s plausible that it’s the only time in his many years in the sport that he did something like that? I hope so.


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## milliepops (14 February 2022)

I don't think you have to have competed at a certain level in order to have an opinion on what that might entail... 
however i do give credence to those who have done, because they might have insight that onlookers do not.

I've only nibbled round the edges of GP but the difference between PSG and GP was absolutely eyewatering in terms of effort required from horse and rider, just that tiny bit of experience was a bit of a shock to me, and I am someone that has watched GP riders competing and training for years. trying to do it myself was a reality check. 

likewise i would not believe i could quite understand what it takes to event 5* from my experience at Novice. 
I have an inkling. but I expect that actually making it happen on a daily basis is quite different.

none of that stops anyone from wanting to see the very best examples of horsemanship at all levels, of course, and theoretical discussions make up 90% of this forum so it also doesn't make anyone's opinion invalid IMO. but i do think it important to listen to those who have been there and done it.


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## Shilasdair (14 February 2022)

I think that the continuing problem for horse riders is - what do you do if your horse naps behind the leg?   

Classical (and BHS as a derivative of that) horsemanship is to use a schooling stick behind the leg to reinforce the aid (and in some riding for example side saddle, to replace the leg aid).
'Natural' horsemanship use a 'wip wop rope' to hit the horse behind the leg.   Or the suspiciously whip-like 'carrot stick'.

Do you sit and wait it out?   Do you get off and lead (rewarding the horse by removing your weight)?   Sometimes horses nap because they are scared, worried or over-faced.  But sometimes they are just lazy and don't want to work - but very few people will pay to keep a horse that won't work in return.

What is the solution?


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## Birker2020 (14 February 2022)

AFB said:



			Thanks - I’m confused by that if I’m honest, while it’s not a technique I’d want used, I don’t think he’s actually hitting the horse with it, just scaring it fwds? My eyes are pretty crap and I’m watching on a phone screen so prepared to be shot down…
		
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Are you looking at the second time he hit it though?


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## scats (14 February 2022)

milliepops said:



			I don't think you have to have competed at a certain level in order to have an opinion on what that might entail...
however i do give credence to those who have done, because they might have insight that onlookers do not.

I've only nibbled round the edges of GP but the difference between PSG and GP was absolutely eyewatering in terms of effort required from horse and rider, just that tiny bit of experience was a bit of a shock to me, and I am someone that has watched GP riders competing and training for years. trying to do it myself was a reality check.

likewise i would not believe i could quite understand what it takes to event 5* from my experience at Novice.
I have an inkling. but I expect that actually making it happen on a daily basis is quite different.

none of that stops anyone from wanting to see the very best examples of horsemanship at all levels, of course, and theoretical discussions make up 90% of this forum so it also doesn't make anyone's opinion invalid IMO. but i do think it important to listen to those who have been there and done it.
		
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Oh totally agree with that, but I think the opinion of the non-competitor is just as worthy too.  Not everyone who gets to the top does it because they are a brilliant horseman.  I do teeter on the verge of thinking that we ask too much of horses at the top level.
I can think of 3 people that I know personally who have competed at what is considered the highest level in their disciplines, and I would not want any of them sitting on my horses.


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## tristar (14 February 2022)

scats said:



			Oh totally agree with that, but I think the opinion of the non-competitor is just as worthy too.  Not everyone who gets to the top does it because they are a brilliant horseman.  I do teeter on the verge of thinking that we ask too much of horses at the top level.
I can think of 3 people that I know personally who have competed at what is considered the highest level in their disciplines, and I would not want any of them sitting on my horses.
		
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 well in other words they aint that good then are they really!


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## Mule (14 February 2022)

Shilasdair said:



			I think that the continuing problem for horse riders is - what do you do if your horse naps behind the leg?

Classical (and BHS as a derivative of that) horsemanship is to use a schooling stick behind the leg to reinforce the aid (and in some riding for example side saddle, to replace the leg aid).
'Natural' horsemanship use a 'wip wop rope' to hit the horse behind the leg.   Or the suspiciously whip-like 'carrot stick'.

Do you sit and wait it out?   Do you get off and lead (rewarding the horse by removing your weight)?   Sometimes horses nap because they are scared, worried or over-faced.  But sometimes they are just lazy and don't want to work - but very few people will pay to keep a horse that won't work in return.

What is the solution?
		
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Afaik, the natural horsemanship people don't  have a problem with getting off and leading. They tend to solve ridden problems through groundwork. I think that explains the different attitudes. I don't know if that idea of solving problems is the same in western riding in general.


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## Cortez (14 February 2022)

tristar said:



			well in other words they aint that good then are they really!
		
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In a world that calculates being good at something by winning competitions, not necessarily.


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## scats (14 February 2022)

tristar said:



			well in other words they aint that good then are they really!
		
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Well arguably they are. I haven’t ridden at that level so they certainly have more experience than me in that sense.  They are certainly going to have more people wanting to aspire to be like them than an average Joe like me.  I suppose Im just highlighting how tricky it all is.


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## Curly_Feather (14 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			I'm not quite sure how generally you meant this,  as opposed to specific questions like training a horse to jump a step down into water,  but there are many horses which understand the question perfectly well and are not afraid who would,  if the rider allowed,  refuse to ever leave the yard where they are kept.,
.
		
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I have nothing constructive to add to this thread except to raise my hand and point accusingly at my horse


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## mossycup (14 February 2022)

This is the full video of the minutes leading up to the clip - 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10216788128015489&id=1831655679


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## Upthecreek (14 February 2022)

I think you obviously have to be very competitive and have huge determination to make it to the very top in any sport and stay there (as well as having a lot of money behind you in equestrian sports). And that is probably what sets those people apart. And in some cases the will to win and be the best supersedes horsemanship or sportsmanship. Being prepared to do things that most of us wouldn’t to achieve results at the highest level. For example most of us wouldn’t consider taking banned substances or give them to our horses to give ourselves a competitive advantage because that is cheating. Most of us wouldn’t contemplate using pinch boots or electric spurs. Top sports men and women say that you have to be prepared to make a lot of sacrifices to reach the pinnacle of their sport. Perhaps that is how some of them justify unsporting behaviour?


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## tristar (14 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			In a world that calculates being good at something by winning competitions, not necessarily.
		
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but i don`t judge a good horse person by those standards, frankly i would not let some of them hold my horse, let alone ride it

i have people i trust  totally with my horses, they have never been in a competition, but they love and understand horses, gifted

and most `top riders`ride with spurs, so i would not want the job of scraping them up off the floor in the aftermath


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## tristar (14 February 2022)

scats said:



			Well arguably they are. I haven’t ridden at that level so they certainly have more experience than me in that sense.  They are certainly going to have more people wanting to aspire to be like them than an average Joe like me.  I suppose Im just highlighting how tricky it all is.
		
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but you still would not be happy, for some reason for some to ride your horses


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## Amymay (14 February 2022)

tristar said:



			but you still would not be happy, for some reason for some to ride your horses
		
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Which is entirely their prerogative 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## Tiddlypom (14 February 2022)

scats said:



			I can think of 3 people that I know personally who have competed at what is considered the highest level in their disciplines, and I would not want any of them sitting on my horses.
		
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I've twice had riders who compete at GP level dressage sit on my horses, and each time it was disastrous .

Both got on, fixed their hands and jammed on their legs, and the horses were 'WtF?' Both riders blamed the horses, of course, but neither rider was prepared or able to change their way of riding one iota to suit the horses they were on.

The most recent one was the late maxicob, who was very forward thinking and sensitive to ride. The GP rider changed after watching the horse from the ground while I rode him and saying 'What a fantastic horse, he'll definitely go to advanced, let me help you book a private lesson with Stephen Clarke' to riding him and saying 'Omg, he's dangerous, you make a difficult horse look much easier than he is' .

This isn't me trying to big myself up, I'm an average rider who tries my best to be as good as I can. It's the disappointment in those who I had thought were capable and knowledgeable by virtue of competing at the top level.


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## tristar (14 February 2022)

oh T POM that is awful, but thanks for posting, it is valuable input to consider when letting others ride your horses

my stallion hacks beautifully round the farm with his sponsor, does not do a lot, but for some reason they look lovely together, and he did not ride for 20 years before starting up again


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## littleshetland (14 February 2022)

A Nations Cup SJ once had a go on my PSG dressage horse.....never again.


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## Cortez (14 February 2022)

Interesting perspective, put alongside the multiple teenagers who like to boast that only they can ride their "dangerous" horses, I for one would be mortified if my horses didn't go at least adequately for any rider. It's a good test of your training, just like competing.


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## Tiddlypom (14 February 2022)

I don't get this? I'm an amateur. My horses are trained to go off light aids. Aren't light and tactful aids what we're supposed to be aiming at? As a rule, it's only me that rides my horses, I'm not setting them up for others to ride.

The GP riders got on and SHOUTED THEIR DEMANDS at my horses. The horses did not  understand what on earth they were supposed to be doing.

Instead of asking another way, the GP riders stuck at what they knew - which was rammed on legs and hands.

If I got on a horse and upset it so much that it panicked I'd be mortified, and I would blame my bad riding. But then I'm an amateur .


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## Sussexbythesea (14 February 2022)

scats said:



			Oh totally agree with that, but I think the opinion of the non-competitor is just as worthy too.  Not everyone who gets to the top does it because they are a brilliant horseman.  I do teeter on the verge of thinking that we ask too much of horses at the top level.
I can think of 3 people that I know personally who have competed at what is considered the highest level in their disciplines, and I would not want any of them sitting on my horses.
		
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This is also my view. Top riders / other professional riders break horses all the time trying to achieve the highest levels. How many people here have sent their horse for backing / schooling and it’s come back broken or sour? A fair few I’ve seen over the years. 

I also don’t agree people always do it because they love or have a passion for horses. Some do but for others it’s what they’ve been brought up doing or they like the thrill / adrenaline it gives them. Some just like the power and control they have over another life. 

After chatting about it in our yard tea room at the weekend I heard a number of horrific stories from former yard workers about how horses had been treated on professional yards they’d worked on.

Apart from a lack of talent I just don’t think I could push any horse to the limits professionals do as my prime concern is keeping my horses sound and happy.


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## Sussexbythesea (14 February 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			I don't get this? I'm an amateur. My horses are trained to go off light aids. Aren't light and tactful aids what we're supposed to be aiming at? As a rule, it's only me that rides my horses, I'm not setting them up for others to ride.

The GP riders got on and SHOUTED THEIR DEMANDS at my horses. The horses did not  understand what on earth they were supposed to be doing.

Instead of asking another way, the GP riders stuck at what they knew - which was rammed on legs and hands.

If I got on a horse and upset it so much that it panicked I'd be mortified, and I would blame my bad riding. But then I'm an amateur .
		
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Didn’t you know you’ve got to have worked with horses for 40 years and competed across all disciplines to have any worthy opinion? Clearly your horses have been ruined by you …..


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## Cortez (14 February 2022)

Sussexbythesea said:



			Didn’t you know you’ve got to have worked with horses for 40 years and competed across all disciplines to have any worthy opinion? Clearly your horses have been ruined by you …..
		
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You are obviously being sarcastic, but can anyone explain the point of having horses that can't be ridden by anyone except oneself? Surely that is limiting the horses chances in life?


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## TPO (14 February 2022)

As with everything I think there's some middle ground

I'm pretty sure we can all name someone who claims to be the only person who can ride their hot/sharp/"dangerous" horse. When really if they were half as good as they made out their horse would be trained so that someone competent could ride them and live! 

But somehow people still see it as bragging rights that they have/ride something so "difficult" rather than an embarrassment that they can't improve the horse.

Having said that there are of course genuinely tricky horses out there would require handling/riding/management in a very specific way.

The type of horses that no matter how good or empathetic a rider you are a relationship is needed before you can get good/the best/not life threatening work from them. 

I'd say based on my experience that there are far fewer difficult horses than there are people proud of their "difficult" horses!!

So to me there's truth in both Cortez and TPs posts and there are so many variants to it that there can't be a firm line as to what someone should or could do.


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## milliepops (14 February 2022)

can't speak for anyone else but i've had a pro ride one of mine when i've been unable to work through a problem, or needed something moving on in a way i wasn't able to either in terms of ability, or bravery... i can say hand on heart i don't think any of my horses have suffered as a result but whenever i've done that i was expecting, and needed a stronger rider than i am. it doesn't excuse any poor riding but in my own case i've sometimes wanted  someone to basically sort out a problem of some kind.

sometimes i have had pros that tackle something head on. other times it's been someone with just more ideas about how to work through something, or better timing etc. So again just as a generalisation I think pro's sometimes turn up with a point to prove, that's often why they've been called.  obviously it would be preferable if there was a convo upfront about what the expectations are on both sides.

I think any of mine could have been ridden by anyone competent tbh, you wouldn't get a tune out of Kira necessarily without understanding how she likes to be ridden but a simple w/t/c and some sideways would be no issue.


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## Tiddlypom (14 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			You are obviously being sarcastic, but can anyone explain the point of having horses that can't be ridden by anyone except oneself? Surely that is limiting the horses chances in life?
		
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If this is in reference to my post, then I have not made myself clear.

Neither horse was particularly difficult for anyone else to ride as long the rider sat quietly and asked tactfully. Something that I'd expect any pro worth their salt to suss out in seconds, and not to double down and keep shouting at them.

Just as I was told when I had my lesson on the riding school horse last week, when I was warned that the lovely Tulip has a very sensitive mouth. I thanked the instructor for telling me and rode her accordingly.


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## My_old_warmblood (14 February 2022)

MotherOfChickens said:



			My instructor did this to my pony when I was about 11, my Exmoor hated muddy ditches. I got off, led my pony away and never went back. I met him again when he examined my Stage 3 lol.

Again we will get that ‘worse happens elsewhere’ as though that justifies it. I am just a bit disappointed that a great horseman like him can’t come up with a better way of getting a reluctant horse over an obstacle.
I do think that the advent of everyone having a camera might change the way we train horses-either that or we will have the privilege taken away.
		
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I had some smack my first pony for not walking quick enough. It was post heavy workout so we were both knackered and sort of leaning on each other to get down from the arena (path wide enough for people to pass me on both sides. He was on Working Livery at the time, and some disgusting apprentice groom smacked him on the arse when I wasn’t looking. Poor thing was just getting over his fear of whips, and I don’t think the apprentice knew it was me. I spun around (I was far younger than her) glared at her and said “I’ll have you know this is my horse and I’m okay with him walking slowly”. I was fuming and took him home for good as it made me paranoid.


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## NinjaPony (14 February 2022)

For me, the salient point from TPs post is that the best riders can adapt to whatever horse is in front of them, and get the best out of them. That is the ‘feel’ that we are always striving for, and as an amateur, it’s something I’m always trying to find on a strange horse! A really great rider can sit on a horse, get a read on them straight away, and improve them. You can be a technically correct rider but IMO if you can’t adapt your style (not drastically!!) to suit to the horse, then you are lacking that feel that separates out the best. Goes without saying, back to MT, if you can’t do that without beating the horse up, then you need to take a good hard look at how you train and ride.


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## Sussexbythesea (14 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			You are obviously being sarcastic, but can anyone explain the point of having horses that can't be ridden by anyone except oneself? Surely that is limiting the horses chances in life?
		
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Where has anyone said that? must have missed it?


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## palo1 (14 February 2022)

I am interested in the experiences of those who have had pro riders riding their horses and finding that 'tricky' as I have always found it invaluable and haven't had difficulties but I have know the professional's approach and trusted that tbh.  What sort of issues have you encountered?  What is worth thinking about for us amateur riders and trainers is the benefit to our horses of training resiliance and confidence in their way of going.  Not only does that help their life chances if something should go awfully wrong at home but also provides us with a brilliant opportunity to seek help and advice.  I would be mortified to have to explain my horse's 'sensitivities' to a pro; I expect them to get those (and in my experience they do, very quickly!) without coming over as some sort of helicopter owner!!  The 'resilience and confidence' I mean is the ability to accept a variety of styles or aids (not extreme versions obviously) and still work confidently and safely with those.  I have had pros with stronger riding styles to my own really help work out where a problem is exactly and then work through it; generally that is what I have paid for so having a horse that can't accept that kind of input seems really counter-productive to me!!  

I would obviously choose which pros to use but then we do that with any task don't we?  That is one of the reasons we might go to a clinic too; to see what approach the trainer might use.


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## sky1000 (14 February 2022)

I can't remember where I read this at all, but I loved David Broome's description of how the four finalists had to swap onto all three other horses in some show jumping competition and how he thought about how to (and did) ride them.  One of them was Matty Brown, I think, and another looked very difficult.  So much so that one of the other riders was thinking of dropping out to avoid riding him, on the basis that he had a family.  But after David's calm round on him he was reassured.  DB did win I think.


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## palo1 (14 February 2022)

My_old_warmblood said:



			I had some smack my first pony for not walking quick enough. It was post heavy workout so we were both knackered and sort of leaning on each other to get down from the arena (path wide enough for people to pass me on both sides. He was on Working Livery at the time, and some disgusting apprentice groom smacked him on the arse when I wasn’t looking. Poor thing was just getting over his fear of whips, and I don’t think the apprentice knew it was me. I spun around (I was far younger than her) glared at her and said “I’ll have you know this is my horse and I’m okay with him walking slowly”. I was fuming and took him home for good as it made me paranoid.
		
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Look, I am sorry but why was the apprentice disgusting??? His or her behaviour may have been disgusting to you or you may have been disgusted with their conduct but it seems really unfair to call the person disgusting.  That is the kind of language that causes all manner of issues on social media.


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## Rowreach (14 February 2022)

The best riders (at all levels) have the sensitivity to know which horses don't suit them and vice versa (I can think of several horses who've swapped riders in the interests of the horse, again at all levels).


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## Upthecreek (14 February 2022)

mossycup said:



			This is the full video of the minutes leading up to the clip -

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10216788128015489&id=1831655679

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Ironically I don’t think what she posted actually helps MT’s case at all. What was the need to make the horse jump off the higher step? Why not just call it a day on a good (ish) note after it jumped off the smaller step?

It is strange that the girl on the horse in the clinic only just posted it two years later, but so what, it happened. As for the girl who posted the unedited version accusing the girl on the horse of ruining MT’s life by posting the video, the fact is nobody made him do it. He’s a grown up and he only has himself to blame for the damage to his reputation.


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## TPO (14 February 2022)

How  I've felt any time a trainer has ridden my horses 😳😂


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## EMSPony (14 February 2022)

He has stepped down as a patron of WHW.  I don't think he had much choice.  

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/horseracing/17643439/mark-todd-steps-down-charity-horse-whip-video/


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## littleshetland (14 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			You are obviously being sarcastic, but can anyone explain the point of having horses that can't be ridden by anyone except oneself? Surely that is limiting the horses chances in life?
		
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As I'm sure you know, they're all different, as are the humans that ride them.  The pressure at which we apply the aids, length of leg, weight and how we shift our weight subtly in the saddle all have an effect on how the horse goes obviously.  Pretty much anyone can sit on any of mine and get a reasonable tune out of them (with some guidance from someone who knows the horse very well  ie...me).  The problems I've encountered is when people with a mighty high opinion of themselves and their riding skills  comes along and and instantly expect the horse to understand different pressures and aids applied slightly differently without allowing time for understanding exactly the new horse that they're riding.  As I'm sure you know, the more educated and trained the horse, the more subtle and nuanced the rider has to be - this is never a good mix when an arrogant stranger sits on and expects the horse to perform with perfect understanding of what's being asked of it.   Ive been the 'arrogant stranger' myself before....lesson learned.


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## EMSPony (14 February 2022)

I was browsing 'equestrian books' on amazon last night, looking for my next read, and this popped up

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cant-Watch...51682&sprefix=equestrian+books,aps,81&sr=8-19

I haven't ordered it, but it sounds pretty eyebrow raising, and made me think how much top level sport really needs to clean up both it's image and its actions if people are going to carry on using horses in this way.  It's really getting harder to justify the 'norm' for a lot of people.


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## My_old_warmblood (14 February 2022)

it’s a same about mark todd. I’ve always loved his brand but I’ll stop buying now (or at least brand new). 
I won’t pretend to be the perfect rider though. Admittedly, as much as I always thrive to be as quiet as possible (a principle of dressage) I do get frustrated at times, always with myself, and the moment my horse feels me tense up he just stands there and waits for me to get a grip. I’ve spent years getting us into that getting us into that great habit, that when things do go wrong, we just take a break, change the topic, and go back to what went wrong and try again. I genuinely like having a horse that’s so tuned in that we can have a conversation going. 
Side note- training a horse to stop when you tense up is something I learned at a professional yard. Now if I loose my balance, let’s say during a no stirrup session, my dear old boy says “not today” and goes back to walk. One time we were jumping, I lost my balance as he took it about a foot too high, and he then slowed on landing, let me right myself, and then cantered on the moment I felt central. I’m professional, but that was my proudest moment. It’s little skills like this I think any horse and rider should have.


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## Sandstone1 (14 February 2022)

On BBC news now.


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## Chianti (14 February 2022)

I wonder if there are other well known trainers worrying about video clips from some of their demos and clinics getting onto social media?


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## Mrs B (14 February 2022)

I am far, FAR more concerned about the witch-hunt happening right now than I am about anything in the original footage.


Edited for NinjaPony 😊 

'I am far, FAR more concerned about the baying mob who are currently intent on destroying MT, his reputation and his livelihood (and all those who may associate with him or take a slightly more nuanced view) than I am about anything in the original footage.'


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## Roxylola (14 February 2022)

Mrs B said:



			I am far, FAR more concerned about the current witch-hunt happening right now than I am about anything in the original footage.
		
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Yes, I don't think it justifies the level of vitriol and boycott threats. Bad decisions were made all round, hes owned it and apologised he can't change the past. 
I stand by what I said previously, what happened was not right or correct at all. I do not endorse that. I also don't think it makes him an animal abuser or that he deserves the venom he's receiving. 
I've made mistakes, I've done things I regret  I've learned from them and tried not to repeat them. I can't change the past though


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## NinjaPony (14 February 2022)

Ok please can I make the same pedantic correction I always make when the term witch-hunt gets used in this context. Witch-hunts refer to a supernatural phenomenon, something that did not exist, people only believed it existed. No one actually was a witch, it was a cultural and psychological phenomenon (incidentally a fascinating one), where people were put to death for crimes they could not have possibly committed, accused by their neighbours with very little ‘proof’, for a number of reasons.
Criticising an internationally famous rider and trainer who has been caught abusing a horse on camera is not a witch-hunt. It’s not the same thing.
Obviously I’m not condoning targeted social media attacks, but I don’t think we should shut down legitimate criticism of public facing professionals. Actions have consequences unfortunately and HHO is absolutely the right place to be discussing this, as this issue inevitably affects the rest of the horse world too.

ETA I just wish the rest of the internet was able to have a discussion like this one without descending into the kind of nastiness that involve death threats etc


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## scats (14 February 2022)

I don’t like the social media attacks on MT as a result of this. I understand that people are angry, but some of the things I have read are frankly vile.  He has apologised and he really can’t do any more about it now.  I was so disappointed to see his actions on the video, but I am prepared to accept his apology and hope its not something he will do again.


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## eahotson (14 February 2022)

EMSPony said:



			I was browsing 'equestrian books' on amazon last night, looking for my next read, and this popped up

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cant-Watch...51682&sprefix=equestrian+books,aps,81&sr=8-19

I haven't ordered it, but it sounds pretty eyebrow raising, and made me think how much top level sport really needs to clean up both it's image and its actions if people are going to carry on using horses in this way.  It's really getting harder to justify the 'norm' for a lot of people.
		
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I have that book.


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## BBP (14 February 2022)

I don’t have anything to add to either side of the argument as much has already been said. However I’ve seen a few people wondering what goes on behind closed doors and I can say that in my limited experience of working for him, his horses were happy well cared for horses being trained from the field. I never witnessed anything to suggest that this sort of action was typical of him.


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## Mrs B (14 February 2022)

NinjaPony said:



			Ok please can I make the same pedantic correction I always make when the term witch-hunt gets used in this context.
		
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Yes, you do get the 'Pedant of the Year' award  
See my above edit to my original post ...


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## Rowreach (14 February 2022)

NinjaPony said:



			Ok please can I make the same pedantic correction I always make when the term witch-hunt gets used in this context. Witch-hunts refer to a supernatural phenomenon, something that did not exist, people only believed it existed. No one actually was a witch, it was a cultural and psychological phenomenon (incidentally a fascinating one), where people were put to death for crimes they could not have possibly committed, accused by their neighbours with very little ‘proof’, for a number of reasons.
Criticising an internationally famous rider and trainer who has been caught abusing a horse on camera is not a witch-hunt. It’s not the same thing.
Obviously I’m not condoning targeted social media attacks, but I don’t think we should shut down legitimate criticism of public facing professionals. Actions have consequences unfortunately and HHO is absolutely the right place to be discussing this, as this issue inevitably affects the rest of the horse world too.

ETA I just wish the rest of the internet was able to have a discussion like this one without descending into the kind of nastiness that involve death threats etc
		
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A lot of words and terms that have their origins in specific circumstances are used more loosely in modern parlance. As in the earlier post.

Take the expression Sweet FA for example. Anyone who knows the origin of that who had any decency would not use it (I hope).

But I think the poster above who referred to a “witch hunt” made a point which most people got.


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## NinjaPony (14 February 2022)

I know it’s pedantic but I think it’s important to make the distinction between ‘legitimate criticism of an individual based on evidence’ and the modern use of witch hunt which suggests an irrational, hysterical and vindictive attack on individuals.

As I said, I’m obviously not condoning any of the more extreme behaviour. But I think there is a tendency to shut down criticism of public figures by accusing people of going on a witch hunt, whereas I actually think most of us here are pretty surprised and shocked to have seen MT behave like this, and at least the discussion here has been measured. The challenge for MT is going to be winning back trust, he has apologised which is the right thing to do, but that reputation he had built has suffered because of this and it’s going to be hard to persuade people that no such incident has happened since.


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## AdorableAlice (14 February 2022)

A life time earning respect and a nano second of poor judgement to lose it very sadly.  Something we all have to consider in the modern world of instant information and not just in the equine world.


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## Upthecreek (14 February 2022)

I think those making vile comments about MT and making death threats are morons. I can however see why people associated with him in a professional capacity might want to distance themselves and why many that have looked up to him feel disappointed. He is obviously in the business of selling equestrian products  and I imagine this will negatively impact sales.

If anything positive is to come out of this hopefully it’s another reminder to people that behaviour like this is unacceptable and can be easily filmed and shared. And the consequences can be a severely damaged reputation and a big financial hit.

With the other cases in the news recently I expect quite a few people’s arses are twitching at what might come out next.


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## Rowreach (14 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I think those making vile comments about MT and making death threats are morons. I can however see why people associated with him in a professional capacity might want to distance themselves and why many that have looked up to him feel disappointed. He is obviously in the business of selling equestrian products  and I imagine this will negatively impact sales.

If anything positive is to come out of this hopefully it’s another reminder to people that behaviour like this is unacceptable and can be easily filmed and shared. And the consequences can be a severely damaged reputation and a big financial hit.

With the other cases in the news recently I expect quite a few people’s arses are twitching at what might come out next.
		
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I don’t disagree but I’m astounded at the number of faultlessly blamelessly innocent people out there who happily lob stones at the likes of MT and others when these things appear online.


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## Boulty (14 February 2022)

My take on this is that it's not ok & is poor horsemanship regardless of who did it but that there is an added level of disappointment that someone who spent so many years at the top of the sport & was idolised by many really felt (at the time) that THIS was the best tool in his surely extensive toolbox to "help" this horse & rider.   I agree that the rider isn't riding all that positively / effectively on the approach for whatever reason (& I know I ride like a bag of crap when I'm worried, emotional or frustrated) & that it may have been frustrating for him if he felt his instructions weren't been listened to but this should not have been a high pressure situation compared to some of what he will have come across whilst competing.   As an elite sportsman he will likely have had access to training the rest of us could only dream of & as part of that it's highly likely some will have been sports psychology related IE how to keep your cool when under pressure.  I'd imagine if he's had training in coaching something similar should have been covered then also?  Your average low level instructor may get away with saying they didn't know what else to do but I don't think this applies to MT. 

I know there's the argument that in a dangerous situation you do what you have to in order to get you & your horse out alive. But this really was NOT one of those situations... Nobody was in danger here (apart from MT if the horse had decided to kick him... Another reason why this wasn't an appropriate example for him to be setting).


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## TPO (14 February 2022)

Rowreach said:



			I don’t disagree but I’m astounded at the number of faultlessly blamelessly innocent people out there who happily lob stones at the likes of MT and others when these things appear online.
		
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Is it really that hard to believe that there are people who have gone through their life with animals without beating them or purposely scaring them?

I've made a lot of mistakes, and will undoubtedly make more, but if my every move around horses had been filmed I'd be happy for any of it to be posted anywhere. I don't think that I can be alone in that?

I'm not perfect but I do genuinely love horses and being around them in any capacity. There has never been an intention behind my actions similar to that displayed by MT in that video. 

I haven't discussed this matter anywhere else online apart from here. Nothing can reverse what happened but I think (which doesn't hold any value) there is merit in discussing what happened and the topics that spin off from the original actions.

I stand by my thoughts that there is a "sickness" in horses where where worst think is to be a "pink fluffy bunny hugger" and the whole, I dunno, stiff upper lip and "suck it up" attitude to "teaching the horse a lesson". I do genuinely adore horses (or mine at least!) and would never want to see the look in his face that the grey had because of MT


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## Rowreach (15 February 2022)

TPO said:



			Is it really that hard to believe that there are people who have gone through their life with animals without beating them or purposely scaring them?

I've made a lot of mistakes, and will undoubtedly make more, but if my every move around horses had been filmed I'd be happy for any of it to be posted anywhere. I don't think that I can be alone in that?

I'm not perfect but I do genuinely love horses and being around them in any capacity. There has never been an intention behind my actions similar to that displayed by MT in that video. 

I haven't discussed this matter anywhere else online apart from here. Nothing can reverse what happened but I think (which doesn't hold any value) there is merit in discussing what happened and the topics that spin off from the original actions.

I stand by my thoughts that there is a "sickness" in horses where where worst think is to be a "pink fluffy bunny hugger" and the whole, I dunno, stiff upper lip and "suck it up" attitude to "teaching the horse a lesson". I do genuinely adore horses (or mine at least!) and would never want to see the look in his face that the grey had because of MT
		
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I'm sure there are people who have never beaten (the definition of that word would be wide ranging) or purposely scared an animal. I'm equally sure that the majority of people who bay for blood in these situations could not, hand on heart, claim to be innocent of ever having done things which, with or without the benefit of hindsight, could be construed as cruel.

I think it's naive to think otherwise.

I also think that if this was a one-off then MT shouldn't have his life destroyed over it, and if it wasn't a one-off then wtf have the hundreds (probably thousands) of people he's taught over the years been doing, allowing it to happen? 

** Usual disclaimer to add that I'm not condoning cruelty in any form, for those about to jump down my throat.


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## Backtoblack (15 February 2022)

if a dog is hit or its paw stood on it yelps. Horses dont. if they did I am sure their lives would have been better, they have endured and continue to endure lots of pain and suffering. think of racehorses being whipped when they are already giving their all, if they cried out then people would realise the harm they are doing, being horses they dont and so suffer more and more.


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## TPO (15 February 2022)

Rowreach said:



			I also think that if this was a one-off then MT shouldn't have his life destroyed over it, and if it wasn't a one-off then wtf have the hundreds (probably thousands) of people he's taught over the years been doing, allowing it to happen?
		
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Rightly or wrongly I do think it was a one-off in a clinic situation. Mainly because I'm sure other footage would have surfaced by now if it wasn't.

If that Mother Trucker blogger and some replies on here are anything to go by 1) people are willing to excuse and reason away anything if done by someone they like* 2) they inexplicably find it funny, as that seemed to be the whole "defence" that Mother Trucker put forward. 3) it got the job done 😒

* if, for example, Harry Evans had been filmed doing the exact same at MT I'm pretty sure the whole forum would be calling for his head and willingly tagging Chris Packham!!

Edited to delete all the random full stops that I seem to type on my phone 🤦🏼‍♀️


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## tristar (15 February 2022)

Backtoblack said:



			if a dog is hit or its paw stood on it yelps. Horses dont. if they did I am sure their lives would have been better, they have endured and continue to endure lots of pain and suffering. think of racehorses being whipped when they are already giving their all, if they cried out then people would realise the harm they are doing, being horses they dont and so suffer more and more.
		
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so true


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## Rowreach (15 February 2022)

TPO said:



			Rightly or wrongly I do think it was a one-off in a clinic situation. Mainly because I'm sure other footage would have surfaced by now if it wasn't.

If that Mother Trucker blogger and some replies on here are anything to go by 1) people are willing to excuse and reason away anything if done by someone they like* 2) they inexplicably find it funny, as that seemed to be the whole "defence" that Mother Trucker put forward. 3) it got the job done 😒

* if, for example, Harry Evans had been filmed doing the exact same at MT I'm pretty sure the whole forum would be calling for his head and willingly tagging Chris Packham!!

Edited to delete all the random full stops that I seem to type on my phone 🤦🏼‍♀️
		
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Yes I agree,  I have a real issue with humans laughing in any situation where an animal is finding something stressful, and I agree that the "oh but it was so funny" brigade need to take a look at themselves - some of the "funny animal videos" that pop up on Facebook just go to show that people who think they are animal lovers really have no clue what the animal is actually going through.


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## eahotson (15 February 2022)

Backtoblack said:



			if a dog is hit or its paw stood on it yelps. Horses dont. if they did I am sure their lives would have been better, they have endured and continue to endure lots of pain and suffering. think of racehorses being whipped when they are already giving their all, if they cried out then people would realise the harm they are doing, being horses they dont and so suffer more and more.
		
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That absolutely.


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## tristar (15 February 2022)

the still posted back somewhere shows that horse on its knees, yes ON ITS KNEES as a result of the treatment it was getting, it  could it resulted in the horse slipping off the edge and landing on the rider.

the horse looks very green and not very fit

the horse already jumped the lower aspect of the obstacle twice i think so why not stop and come back another day, let the creature have time in the stable to process the days events, but no it has to be beaten vilely at full force by a grown man

there is no excuse, is it on its knees through terror? i don`t know, first its going towards the jump, then it hesitates, the rider asks it to go on then a man beats it with a twig, then it looks at the water then goes down on its knees, just how much can one creature process at one time?

it jumped the smaller element greenly, so why push on immediately, this is where the trainers judgement is sorely lacking, a decent trainer would use incremental stages, ie until it was totally confident at the smaller element hold back till tomorrow

the injustice shown to animals is heartbreaking we should know better by now

stuff the beating man, this is about the horse


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## Equi (15 February 2022)

TPO said:



			Rightly or wrongly I do think it was a one-off in a clinic situation. Mainly because I'm sure other footage would have surfaced by now if it wasn't.

If that Mother Trucker blogger and some replies on here are anything to go by 1) people are willing to excuse and reason away anything if done by someone they like* 2) they inexplicably find it funny, as that seemed to be the whole "defence" that Mother Trucker put forward. 3) it got the job done 😒

* if, for example, Harry Evans had been filmed doing the exact same at MT I'm pretty sure the whole forum would be calling for his head and willingly tagging Chris Packham!!

Edited to delete all the random full stops that I seem to type on my phone 🤦🏼‍♀️
		
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He has. Many times. And it’s not in the mainstream media because he’s not “famous” enough.


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## Upthecreek (15 February 2022)

Rowreach said:



			I don’t disagree but I’m astounded at the number of faultlessly blamelessly innocent people out there who happily lob stones at the likes of MT and others when these things appear online.
		
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I can’t understand what people think they are achieving by slagging him off on Facebook and I will never understand the mentality of people threatening violence. But hand on heart I can sleep well at night knowing there aren’t any videos of me whacking horses. That doesn’t make me a perfect person who never makes mistakes, but I don’t hit, smack or kick animals or people. Yes people make mistakes, but in all of the recent cases I struggle to believe the behaviour caught on camera were isolated incidents and that the people involved hadn’t done similar previously.


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## TPO (15 February 2022)

Equi said:



			He has. Many times. And it’s not in the mainstream media because he’s not “famous” enough.
		
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That was my point!


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## Peglo (15 February 2022)

TPO said:



			Rightly or wrongly I do think it was a one-off in a clinic situation. Mainly because I'm sure other footage would have surfaced by now if it wasn't.

If that Mother Trucker blogger and some replies on here are anything to go by 1) people are willing to excuse and reason away anything if done by someone they like* 2) they inexplicably find it funny, as that seemed to be the whole "defence" that Mother Trucker put forward. 3) it got the job done 😒

* if, for example, Harry Evans had been filmed doing the exact same at MT I'm pretty sure the whole forum would be calling for his head and willingly tagging Chris Packham!!

Edited to delete all the random full stops that I seem to type on my phone 🤦🏼‍♀️
		
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This is my thought also. If I’d posted that video of me and a friend smacking my horse 10 times with a stick and tried justifying it by saying it worked because the horse went in the water I think there would be a unanimous outrage towards me. And rightly so. I’m sure I would be told anything from ‘get a trainer’ to ‘don’t keep horses.’  I’m not sure why swapping in a professional changes anything.

I don’t want his blood or anything and I’m not against giving my TB a smack if shes being dangerous but I am shocked by that “training” technique and can’t quite understand how it helped. But I’m an amateur so 🤷🏼‍♀️


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## RHM (15 February 2022)

What frustrates me about these situations is the holy than thou attitude of a lot of people. I think everyone has forgotten human beings are flawed, you can be a good person and have a error of judgement and do a bad thing. Just as occasionally “bad” people can be kind.

Regarding this situation it’s clear he went too far, and even he acknowledges this. He should have punishment such as losing his position as patron of charity. However, I don’t think a one off should warrant a social media shit show. Absolutely call out bad behaviour but at the same time acknowledge the context. Eg this man is an Eventing legend more talented then most and I don’t believe you get to that level without having a real partnership with your horses along the way. He isn’t a long time animal abuser, or at least there is no evidence of this.

As a side note, I showed the full video to my non horsey OH and although he thought what happened was cruel. He could se no difference to that and people using whips. Which I thought was interesting as a member of the public perception.


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## AandK (15 February 2022)

RHM said:



			As a side note, I showed the full video to my non horsey OH and although he thought what happened was cruel. He could se no difference to that and people using whips. Which I thought was interesting as a member of the public perception.
		
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I think this is a key point, all the people making excuses for what happened are clearly unaware of how much the non-horsey public's view does matter. These old school methods need to be confined to the history books, or we can all kiss goodbye to horse sport, or even riding horses full stop. We live in different times compared to even 2 years ago.


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## TPO (15 February 2022)

RHM said:



			at the same time acknowledge the context. Eg this man is an Eventing legend more talented then most
		
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So if a "legend" does it then they are allowed a free pass for a blip but if a teacher/footballer/Harry Evans does it then its OK if the matter is taken further?

It doesn't matter if a deity itself descended (or rose) and did this to an animal. It is not OK and it is not excusable. 



RHM said:



			He could se no difference to that and people using whips. Which I thought was interesting as a member of the public perception.
		
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People shouldn't be using whips in the manner that MT used the branch. Nor should people be using whips to scare or force horses to do something even more so when the animal is visibly worried and scared.

Phoebe Buckleys response is just ad bad as Mother Truckers. Oh the rider had a water jump issue and he fixed it 🙄  surely at some point a "legend" would know it wasn't a one clinic fix or that more work was needed to fix the basics and build a solid foundation. I doubt that a "legend" was embarrassed or worried to say to a be90/100 person that he couldn't fix the issue in a group clinic. 

There are a plethora of ways to build a horse's confidence through, and jumping into water, and none of them need to involve whipping a horse so that it stumbles to its knees and decides that the water is the less scary option. 

But yeah, legend, cool...


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## TPO (15 February 2022)

AandK said:



			even 2 years ago.
		
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And things weren't that different two years ago, of at all, it's not like we are viewing footage from the 70s say.

Not that it was acceptable in the footage but not that much had changed in the frozen pandemic years


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## milliepops (15 February 2022)

in fairness to RHM i didn't read it as though legend = free pass. but a history of good horsemanship vs one (known) bad episode is a better ratio than someone like HE.  

Many of us also felt that what's happened to that teacher exceeded what was proportionate. i think if you look purely at the social media storm that holds in both situations. The footballer... possibly different because the club did not appear to be doing anything meaningful at least to begin with so social media outrage may have nudged them into action.  There's never a justification for death threats etc regardless though.


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## TPO (15 February 2022)

milliepops said:



			There's never a justification for death threats etc regardless though.
		
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Agree and those people should also have consequences in line with the law


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## Blanche (15 February 2022)

BBP said:



			I don’t have anything to add to either side of the argument as much has already been said. However I’ve seen a few people wondering what goes on behind closed doors and I can say that in my limited experience of working for him, his horses were happy well cared for horses being trained from the field. I never witnessed anything to suggest that this sort of action was typical of him.
		
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I had a similar experience when I worked for Lynn Russell way back in the late eighties. I only worked there for about seven or eight months but never saw anything untoward. I left as I didn’t enjoy the constant turnover of the dealers, nothing else. I never watched the video that was her downfall so can’t pass judgment on it.


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## Mule (15 February 2022)

Horse owners are a bit weird in that learning theory is novel to many of us. Many of us haven't even heard of it. Other large animal keepers are far more advanced their knowledge of training. We have negative reinforcement and positive punishment down somewhat, but positive reinforcement is still looked at askance by many. Although many people use negative reinforcement  and punishment innefectively too. I think it comes down to the 'show him who's boss' attitude. People who work with whales, elephants and similar don't have that.

I think it would be a good thing if all of us sought out information on the science of training rather than rely on handed down knowledge. Even if we are happy with what we are doing, more knowledge is always a good thing.

Equitation science is a good source for understanding the application of learing theory with horses. It's not a 'method', it's established science.


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## tristar (15 February 2022)

RHM said:



			What frustrates me about these situations is the holy than thou attitude of a lot of people. I think everyone has forgotten human beings are flawed, you can be a good person and have a error of judgement and do a bad thing. Just as occasionally “bad” people can be kind.

Regarding this situation it’s clear he went too far, and even he acknowledges this. He should have punishment such as losing his position as patron of charity. However, I don’t think a one off should warrant a social media shit show. Absolutely call out bad behaviour but at the same time acknowledge the context. Eg this man is an Eventing legend more talented then most and I don’t believe you get to that level without having a real partnership with your horses along the way. He isn’t a long time animal abuser, or at least there is no evidence of this.

As a side note, I showed the full video to my non horsey OH and although he thought what happened was cruel. He could se no difference to that and people using whips. Which I thought was interesting as a member of the public perception.
		
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the context?  a legend who could not think of a better way to do something so simple and basic as show a horse the way to enter water

 i hope it shows non legend people just what an illusion a legend can be, and to learn to listen to themselves when working with their own horses and not follow and be in awe of er.....legends


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## NinjaPony (15 February 2022)

I’ve finally braved looking at some of the FB comments on the HH article (unsurprisingly the discussion is much better over here!) and I’m actually pretty disheartened to see people actively defending his actions, rather than just calling for reflection rather than immediate fury like most of us here. I don’t think it’s acceptable to defend the methods shown here, it’s not surprising the public often think horse riding is cruel when they see FB comments claiming that any criticism of the video is just people who don’t get how to train horses, or an over reaction, or a pointless ‘witch hunt’.

You can both condemn the behaviour, whilst acknowledging that in the context of his career, it (hopefully) looks like an isolated incident. As a sport, we cannot keep defending this type of behaviour, just because it’s someone very well liked and respected. What kind of message is that sending? That it’s fine to wack a frightened horse into submission, the ends justify the means? We all know the difference between a short sharp smack for bad or dangerous behaviour, and this kind of prolonged assault.

Does that mean MT should be receiving vile abuse? Of course not! I really do hope he has reflected on his behaviour and why he resorted to that, and has taken steps to make sure it never happens again either in public or at home. I’ve always had a lot of respect for him historically and I’d like to see some reflection and learning carried forward and discussed.

As a sport, we need to understand that defending the indefensible is a one way street to public condemnation. I love our sport, and I love horses and I can’t imagine my life without them and I’m sure most of us are the same. That doesn’t mean I’m prepared to stand up for behaviour that is clearly unacceptable, just because it’s coming from someone I’ve respected. Let’s hope this acts as a bit of a wake up call for all of us, including other professionals, and a rethink about what methods are considered acceptable. That’s much more nuanced then either flat out condemning the man, or reacting defensively because it’s someone the sport likes and trusts.


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## RHM (15 February 2022)

TPO said:



			So if a "legend" does it then they are allowed a free pass for a blip but if a teacher/footballer/Harry Evans does it then its OK if the matter is taken further?

It doesn't matter if a deity itself descended (or rose) and did this to an animal. It is not OK and it is not excusable.



People shouldn't be using whips in the manner that MT used the branch. Nor should people be using whips to scare or force horses to do something even more so when the animal is visibly worried and scared.

Phoebe Buckleys response is just ad bad as Mother Truckers. Oh the rider had a water jump issue and he fixed it 🙄  surely at some point a "legend" would know it wasn't a one clinic fix or that more work was needed to fix the basics and build a solid foundation. I doubt that a "legend" was embarrassed or worried to say to a be90/100 person that he couldn't fix the issue in a group clinic.

There are a plethora of ways to build a horse's confidence through, and jumping into water, and none of them need to involve whipping a horse so that it stumbles to its knees and decides that the water is the less scary option.

But yeah, legend, cool...
		
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Haha sorry but think you misunderstood what I meant by legend. Not at all that he deserves a free pass. If anything he should be held to a higher account by the public. But I think if you can have a career as long as his in the public eye and only have one incidence of poor behaviour surely it would be safe to assume this is not normal behaviour for him?

I think another interesting point in regards to cruelty in our sport is that hitting our animals is until very recently has been normalised. I think it’s difficult particularly for the public to understand is you would never dream of hitting your dog or cat but there are circumstances most horse owners would hit their horse.

Either way I agree with others the public perception is very important if we want to continue our sport into the future. We all need to play a part in that.


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## tristar (15 February 2022)

Mule said:



			Horse owners are a bit weird in that learning theory is novel to many of us. Many of us haven't even heard of it. Other large animal keepers are far more advanced their knowledge of training. We have negative reinforcement and positive punishment down somewhat, but positive reinforcement is still looked at askance by many. Although many people use negative reinforcement  and punishment innefectively too. I think it comes down to the 'show him who's boss' attitude. People who work with whales, elephants and similar don't have that.

I think it would be a good thing if all of us sought out information on the science of training rather than rely on handed down knowledge. Even if we are happy with what we are doing, more knowledge is always a good thing.

Equitation science is a good source for understanding the application of learing theory with horses. It's not a 'method', it's established science.
		
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there was a program on the tele, zoo based, they needed to take blood from a giraffe, so stuck its head in a bucket of food and drew said blood, it was a bit high upits so obvious but worked really well, so when the vet needed to  inject a horse here who is a bit needle shy according  to who is doing it, [long story] i did this and not a moments problem, it was a super vet though

the same horse this morning walked between a steam roller and giant digger, en route to the field, just feet either side, with the  digger arm working not a moments hesitation, the noise was terrific, i was so proud of him
positive reinforcement and reward in kind could be underestimated


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## planete (15 February 2022)

One of my vets is really keen on positive reinforcement.  She managed to inject Woody intravenously in five minutes by rewarding standing still while she rested her fingers on the intended injection site a few times ( he was shaking her off at first), same with tapping, then injection.  A different vet had thought twitching him would succeed but could not get near his nose.  I was glad as I am always weary of twitched horses, I have seen a few twitched horses suddenly explode and known of people badly hurt in the process.


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## palo1 (15 February 2022)

I am sort of shocked that no-one has mentioned the Panorama programme screened last night about the Dairy industry - it is in a related vein in the way some people will treat animals. Perhaps there is a thread somewhere else?  OH and I found it too horrific to watch.  Literally not a single farmer we know would treat their stock the way some of those cows were treated.  It was very disturbing.


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## Upthecreek (15 February 2022)

palo1 said:



			I am sort of shocked that no-one has mentioned the Panorama programme screened last night about the Dairy industry - it is in a related vein in the way some people will treat animals. Perhaps there is a thread somewhere else?  OH and I found it too horrific to watch.  Literally not a single farmer we know would treat their stock the way some of those cows were treated.  It was very disturbing.
		
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I watched it all and felt sick to my stomach. Animals being treated with such disrespect and cruelty, like a product rather than a living feeling being.

Is this due to mass farming requiring cheap labour to be employed? People who just want a job, rather than people who are truly interested and invested in the industry and actually care about the animals. I don’t know. I just can’t get my head around why people are deliberately nasty to animals.


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## palo1 (15 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I watched it all and felt sick to my stomach. Animals being treated with such disrespect and cruelty, like a product rather than a living feeling being.

Is this due to mass farming requiring cheap labour to be employed? People who just want a job, rather than people who are truly interested and invested in the industry and actually care about the animals. I don’t know. I just can’t get my head around why people are deliberately nasty to animals.
		
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We couldn't watch all of it but it felt like a very different kind of attitude/abuse to that which has been discussed in this thread earlier.  Casual, deliberate and appalling brutality doesn't even come close as a description.  My OH is a farmers son and we have our own stock, we are familiar with handling large animals, we are familiar with death through various means including slaughter.  Both of us were sickened at the treatment of those cows - it felt utterly alien to our experience and the knowledge we have of our neighbours and farming community.  There was a total lack of connection, empathy or respect and that isn't something we commonly see or sense.  You may be right about cheap, unengaged and uninvested labour @Upthecreek.  I don't know.   I would say we love and respect our stock, albeit knowing that they will go to slaughter (we have a few beef cattle - very low intensity, rather than dairy).  Dairy cattle are such a committment and investment in time, money and infrastructure I am totally at a loss as to how and why that kind of appalling behaviour could be tolerated.  Those poor, poor cows.   It sickened me that no-one on those yards called it out too.  When I went out to our barns this morning I reflected on the experience of handling that our stock have, I really did.  It feels a world away from what was on that programme thankfully but there are clearly yards where that stuff happens.  I would hope that if any good comes out of that full length, researched programme is that more people are prepared to spend more on dairy produce to ensure that it is higher welfare.  I hope that the impact isn't that people abandon UK dairy produce in favour of complex imported substitutes unless they really have to.  To be honest the MT incident looks utterly trivial by comparison but that is not to say it is great to whack a horse with a branch!


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## Spotherisk (15 February 2022)

It shows up that individual clinics are maybe not a great learning situation. Rider books a clinic, a one off lesson with a famous name, and I guess the assumption is because they’re a great rider then they will be a great trainer, but it’s not always so.  The trainer is under pressure to improve horse and rider in a brief time and the rider is under pressure because they don’t know the trainer and maybe it’s a new venue/new horse etc etc. Either way, the trainer is getting a one off fee and probably feels the need to show improvement, and the rider is expecting that.  Think about your first lesson with any new trainer (maybe one that you’re hoping you will gel with and see regularly) and I expect it won’t be your best ever lesson - your second and third etc etc will be better.  The one off clinic doesn't allow that.

Not trying to excuse Toddy - more saying think about what you’re trying to achieve and who is best to get you there.


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## Upthecreek (15 February 2022)

palo1 said:



			We couldn't watch all of it but it felt like a very different kind of attitude/abuse to that which has been discussed in this thread earlier.  Casual, deliberate and appalling brutality doesn't even come close as a description.  My OH is a farmers son and we have our own stock, we are familiar with handling large animals, we are familiar with death through various means including slaughter.  Both of us were sickened at the treatment of those cows - it felt utterly alien to our experience and the knowledge we have of our neighbours and farming community.  There was a total lack of connection, empathy or respect and that isn't something we commonly see or sense.  You may be right about cheap, unengaged and uninvested labour @Upthecreek.  I don't know.   I would say we love and respect our stock, albeit knowing that they will go to slaughter (we have a few beef cattle - very low intensity, rather than dairy).  Dairy cattle are such a committment and investment in time, money and infrastructure I am totally at a loss as to how and why that kind of appalling behaviour could be tolerated.  Those poor, poor cows.   It sickened me that no-one on those yards called it out too.  When I went out to our barns this morning I reflected on the experience of handling that our stock have, I really did.  It feels a world away from what was on that programme thankfully but there are clearly yards where that stuff happens.  I would hope that if any good comes out of that full length, researched programme is that more people are prepared to spend more on dairy produce to ensure that it is higher welfare.  I hope that the impact isn't that people abandon UK dairy produce in favour of complex imported substitutes unless they really have to.  To be honest the MT incident looks utterly trivial by comparison but that is not to say it is great to whack a horse with a branch!
		
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Generally this disregard and abuse of cows does seem to be quite common in high intensity farming where there is a need for round the clock, cheap labour. I don’t know what the answer is when milk is so cheap and quotas mean that hundreds of thousands of litres are wasted.

I agree, in terms of animal welfare the MT incident does look trivial in comparison. But I still find his behaviour disappointing and see a scared horse forced into accepting the situation it is in. So not so different to the cows.


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## palo1 (16 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Generally this disregard and abuse of cows does seem to be quite common in high intensity farming where there is a need for round the clock, cheap labour. I don’t know what the answer is when milk is so cheap and quotas mean that hundreds of thousands of litres are wasted.

I agree, in terms of animal welfare the MT incident does look trivial in comparison. But I still find his behaviour disappointing and see a scared horse forced into accepting the situation it is in. So not so different to the cows.
		
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Yes, I don't think there was a useful training outcome for the horse and rider in the MT video.  That didn't look like effective problem solving to me.  The difference I would hope, with the cows, is that horse would be treated exceptionally well and with respect in just about every other scenario.  No animal has a choice as to where it ends up though which is why it is vital that both leisure animals and animals kept for food production have both a legal framework and a culture of high welfare standards.   Even leisure horses which are probably one of the highest status and potentially most likely to be well looked after animals don't have an absolutely clear framework for their welfare (hence much arguing about things like stabling, etc etc).  I don't particularly want to see a nanny state but it seems vital to me that we ensure that welfare standards and practices are absolutely clear for keeping animals.


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## ycbm (16 February 2022)

palo1 said:



			I am sort of shocked that no-one has mentioned the Panorama programme screened last night about the Dairy industry - it is in a related vein in the way some people will treat animals. Perhaps there is a thread somewhere else?  OH and I found it too horrific to watch.  Literally not a single farmer we know would treat their stock the way some of those cows were treated.  It was very disturbing.
		
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It wasn't about "the dairy industry" though,  was it,  it was about one farm that was targeted by an animal rights activist for investigation precisely because he knew the shocking footage he could obtain. 

It could be the only dairy farm in the UK that treats its cows like that,  it's certainly the only one I've seen.  The dairy farmers I've known have actually been a bit soppy about their cows 

It was a very unbalanced programme and exactly why the licence fee needs taking away,  imo. This kind of tabloid  sensationalism shouldn't be being publicly financed by a tax, imo.
.


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## tristar (16 February 2022)

hears somewhere that milk is cheaper than bottled water


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## Upthecreek (16 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			It wasn't about "the dairy industry" though,  was it,  it was about one farm that was targeted by an animal rights activist for investigation precisely because he knew the shocking footage he could obtain.

It could be the only dairy farm in the UK that treats its cows like that,  it's certainly the only one I've seen.  The dairy farmers I've known have actually been a bit soppy about their cows 

It was a very unbalanced programme and exactly why the licence fee needs taking away,  imo. This kind of tabloid  sensationalism shouldn't be being publicly financed by a tax, imo.
.
		
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Sadly the smaller farms where the farmer knows each cow personally are dwindling rapidly. Most dairy farms local to me are massive commercial operations with dairy men that work round the clock to milk the cows three times a day. The cows live indoors all year round and are separated from their calves within hours of birth. It’s factory farming. 

I’ve seen many news reports of cows being abused on farms and people being prosecuted for animal cruelty or neglect, so I don’t think it’s that unusual in the dairy industry unfortunately. 

The point of the programme was to highlight the issue. You can watch Countryfile or any of the other ‘country’ programmes for balance.


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## palo1 (16 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			It wasn't about "the dairy industry" though,  was it,  it was about one farm that was targeted by an animal rights activist for investigation precisely because he knew the shocking footage he could obtain.

It could be the only dairy farm in the UK that treats its cows like that,  it's certainly the only one I've seen.  The dairy farmers I've known have actually been a bit soppy about their cows 

It was a very unbalanced programme and exactly why the licence fee needs taking away,  imo. This kind of tabloid  sensationalism shouldn't be being publicly financed by a tax, imo.
.
		
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Yes I agree!  The programme about that farm did not reflect any of my experience and I felt outraged by the content but also by the sensation that the programme caused which is not remotely balanced by putting forward any other content about dairy cows.  I have had at least 2 of my neighbours say that they would be absolutely happy for a livestream of their cattle (though they are beef on the whole as dairy isn't really the thing just here) and farming to be used.  Panorama has had it's share of issues about reporting; I can't see this helping tbh. Even so, the treatment of those cows was sickening.


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## YorksG (16 February 2022)

[QUOTE="Upthecreek, post: 14845202, You can watch Countryfile or any of the other ‘country’ programmes for balance.[/QUOTE]
Hardly imo, most of the BBC programmes about the "countryside" have nothing to do with farming and a lot to do with countryside access. There does seem to be a very strange bias currently in the BBC, hence the continued use of Packham, alongside his very different treatment from other freelance specialists. It appears unhealthy and very anti farming currently.


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## palo1 (16 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Sadly the smaller farms where the farmer knows each cow personally are dwindling rapidly. Most dairy farms local to me are massive commercial operations with dairy men that work round the clock to milk the cows three times a day. The cows live indoors all year round and are separated from their calves within hours of birth. It’s factory farming.

I’ve seen many news reports of cows being abused on farms and people being prosecuted for animal cruelty or neglect, so I don’t think it’s that unusual in the dairy industry unfortunately.

The point of the programme was to highlight the issue. You can watch Countryfile or any of the other ‘country’ programmes for balance.
		
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This is not my experience at all of dairy (in these parts).  Countryfile is a pile of rubbish so in my view provides no sense of balance whatsoever!! Consumers can help to change milk prices and the kind of farming that is viable, as can the shareholders of supermarkets etc.


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## palo1 (16 February 2022)

YorksG said:



			[QUOTE="Upthecreek, post: 14845202, You can watch Countryfile or any of the other ‘country’ programmes for balance.
		
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Hardly imo, most of the BBC programmes about the "countryside" have nothing to do with farming and a lot to do with countryside access. There does seem to be a very strange bias currently in the BBC, hence the continued use of Packham, alongside his very different treatment from other freelance specialists. It appears unhealthy and very anti farming currently.[/QUOTE]

YES.  This!! Packham has been in the High Court (yesterday) in relation to lies, libel and zoo tigers..personally I hope he is revealed for what he really is.  The BBC seems in thrall to a particular clique which is not what I pay my licence fee for and is not what is in the BBC constitution.


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## ycbm (16 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			You can watch Countryfile or any of the other ‘country’ programmes for balance.
		
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Imo there's no justification for a tax that requires you to watch two programs to get balance and I'd also question whether the bucolic touchy feely tourist board production called Countryfile provides any sort of balance. 
.


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## Velcrobum (16 February 2022)

Back to Mark Todd he has had his training licence suspended

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...-bha-with-video-investigations-ongoing/538376


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## Upthecreek (16 February 2022)

I agree that Countryfile is rubbish and was a bad example. I didn’t see the programme as sensationalist and I didn’t feel it was trying to say that treatment of cows there was representative of all dairy farms.


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## tristar (16 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I agree that Countryfile is rubbish and was a bad example. I didn’t see the programme as sensationalist and I didn’t feel it was trying to say that treatment of cows there was representative of all dairy farms.
		
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it does not matter if it was only one farm, its terrible, but a while ago the intention of creating huge  indoor dairy farms emerged, at the time i could not imagine how cows could be kept that way, shocking

the animals should have access to outdoors everyday possible

i cant imagine a worse way to keep them, sickening


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## Birker2020 (16 February 2022)

RHM said:



			What frustrates me about these situations is the holy than thou attitude of a lot of people. I think everyone has forgotten human beings are flawed, you can be a good person and have a error of judgement and do a bad thing. Just as occasionally “bad” people can be kind.
		
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Of course this is human nature.  But there's holier than thou situations and there's trying to explain a situation and constantly banging one's head against the wall.

I think he was wrong to do what he did, if he'd pushed the branch into the horses bum it wouldn't have been quite so bad but to whack it 10 times was wrong.  The horse obviously didn't have much confidence in either the rider or the water but would have even less against MT now!


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## Tiddlypom (16 February 2022)

Velcrobum said:



			Back to Mark Todd he has had his training licence suspended

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...-bha-with-video-investigations-ongoing/538376

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I'm afraid that was inevitable . The BHA had to be seen to act, but I hope that the suspension is only temporary. I wouldn't be too sure about that, though, they may feel that he has to made an example of.

_A BHA statement read: "The chair of British racing’s Independent Judicial Panel has today approved an application from the BHA that an interim suspension should be placed on the training licence of Sir Mark Todd following the emergence over the weekend of a video showing him striking a horse with what appears to be a branch.

"This interim suspension means that while investigations continue into the circumstances of this incident, Sir Mark will be unable to race horses in Britain or internationally.

"The trainer has admitted the individual involved in the video was him, has apologised for his actions and agreed to the imposition of an interim suspension."_


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## sakura (16 February 2022)

I think MT's actions, whether a one-off or not, are unjustifiable and I have lost any respect for him that I previously had.


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## HBB (16 February 2022)

After what I’ve heard and read from friends that know this rider personally, it’s the poor horse that needs saving.
It appears both her and MT are as bad as each other with their methods of training.
Her previous boss has let her feeling be known on FB, as have other liveries that refused to let her handle their horses due to her temper.


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## cauda equina (16 February 2022)

YorksG said:



			[QUOTE="Upthecreek, post: 14845202, You can watch Countryfile or any of the other ‘country’ programmes for balance.
		
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Hardly imo, most of the BBC programmes about the "countryside" have nothing to do with farming and a lot to do with countryside access. There does seem to be a very strange bias currently in the BBC, hence the continued use of Packham, alongside his very different treatment from other freelance specialists. It appears unhealthy and very anti farming currently.[/QUOTE]
Or if not actively anti farming, it certainly seems to cater more for the townies non-expert listener when talking about farming
On a recent Farming Today they were talking about silage - 'That's preserved grass used to feed animals. You may have seen it stacked up around fields'.


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## Rowreach (16 February 2022)

cauda equina said:



			Hardly imo, most of the BBC programmes about the "countryside" have nothing to do with farming and a lot to do with countryside access. There does seem to be a very strange bias currently in the BBC, hence the continued use of Packham, alongside his very different treatment from other freelance specialists. It appears unhealthy and very anti farming currently.
		
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Or if not actively anti farming, it certainly seems to cater more for the townies non-expert listener when talking about farming
On a recent Farming Today they were talking about silage - 'That's preserved grass used to feed animals. You may have seen it stacked up around fields'.[/QUOTE]

And their latest offering of Kelvin from Emmerdale.  Ye gods.


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## Upthecreek (16 February 2022)

I already said Countryfile was a bad example. The target audience for those programmes is not people who already have a good understanding of farming/country pursuits etc. Unfortunately a lot of what is broadcast is inaccurate/misleading and some of the presenters are cringeworthy, which doesn’t help.


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## Upthecreek (16 February 2022)

And their latest offering of Kelvin from Emmerdale.  Ye gods.[/QUOTE said:
			
		


			I mean all those muscles and he is scared or squeamish about everything! Very disappointing 🤣
		
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## cauda equina (16 February 2022)

Rowreach said:



			Or if not actively anti farming, it certainly seems to cater more for the townies non-expert listener when talking about farming
On a recent Farming Today they were talking about silage - 'That's preserved grass used to feed animals. You may have seen it stacked up around fields'.
		
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And their latest offering of Kelvin from Emmerdale.  Ye gods.[/QUOTE]
Who's Kelvin?


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## Chianti (16 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I already said Countryfile was a bad example. The target audience for those programmes is not people who already have a good understanding of farming/country pursuits etc. Unfortunately a lot of what is broadcast is inaccurate/misleading and some of the presenters are cringeworthy, which doesn’t help.
		
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It seems to have become Blue Peter for adults. I can't watch it as the ' I went along to lend a hand' drives me mad.


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## Rowreach (16 February 2022)

cauda equina said:



			Who's Kelvin?
		
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Like I said, he's in Emmerdale.  And now he's doing a "farming" programme on BBC.


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## cauda equina (16 February 2022)

Oh, is that the Top Gear in Tractors thing?


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## Amymay (16 February 2022)

Rowreach said:



			Like I said, he's in Emmerdale.  And now he's doing a "farming" programme on BBC.
		
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Tbf he’s bought a farm, and they’re filming his first year.


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## Amymay (16 February 2022)

cauda equina said:



			Oh, is that the Top Gear in Tractors thing?
		
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No, that’s Clarkson’s Farm - which was fantastic.


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## cauda equina (16 February 2022)

Clarkson and fantastic do not belong in the same sentence IMHO!


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## Rowreach (16 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			Tbf he’s bought a farm, and they’re filming his first year.
		
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Yes, I know that, thank you.


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## ycbm (16 February 2022)

Deleted wrong show


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## ycbm (16 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			Tbf he’s bought a farm, and they’re filming his first year.
		
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That's local to me and the real farmers are furious about the bad impression of farming he's causing with ill treatment of his animals.


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## YorksG (16 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			That's local to me and the real farmers are furious about the bad impression of farming he's causing with ill treatment of his animals.
		
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I presume that part of his paying for the farm is the remuneration from the BBC, it beggars belief!


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## Amymay (16 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			That's local to me and the real farmers are furious about the bad impression of farming he's causing with ill treatment of his animals.
		
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Really?


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## Rowreach (16 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			That's local to me and the real farmers are furious about the bad impression of farming he's causing with ill treatment of his animals.
		
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He certainly comes across as someone without a clue but with a very short temper.  As stated by his wife in Ep1.


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## ycbm (16 February 2022)

Amymay said:



			Really?
		
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Yes, his advisor is taking a real slating.  I haven't watch it,  just heard sheep farming friends talking about it.  
.


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## Chianti (16 February 2022)

EMSPony said:



			I was browsing 'equestrian books' on amazon last night, looking for my next read, and this popped up

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cant-Watch-Anymore-Dropping-Equestrian/dp/8797354309/ref=sr_1_19?crid=32GF5DPHDBJW4&keywords=equestrian+books&qid=1644851682&sprefix=equestrian+books,aps,81&sr=8-19

I haven't ordered it, but it sounds pretty eyebrow raising, and made me think how much top level sport really needs to clean up both it's image and its actions if people are going to carry on using horses in this way.  It's really getting harder to justify the 'norm' for a lot of people.
		
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I ordered it and have just read it - it's a very difficult read. I do wonder how long we'll go on as we are.


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## Arzada (16 February 2022)

Chianti said:



			I ordered it and have just read it - it's a very difficult read. I do wonder how long we'll go on as we are.
		
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I only got as far as the front cover of the book as shown on the Amazon page. What rider would watch a video/see stills of their horse looking like this and fail to realise that something terrible is happening to their horse, that they are the cause and think that it's OK to continue like this?


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## eahotson (17 February 2022)

Chianti said:



			I ordered it and have just read it - it's a very difficult read. I do wonder how long we'll go on as we are.
		
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I have also bought it and find it a very difficult read.Things need to change NOW.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (17 February 2022)

HBB said:



			After what I’ve heard and read from friends that know this rider personally, it’s the poor horse that needs saving.
It appears both her and MT are as bad as each other with their methods of training.
Her previous boss has let her feeling be known on FB, as have other liveries that refused to let her handle their horses due to her temper.
		
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I have seen a few people now say she was removed from a yard for mistreatment theft and bullying? Pot kettle black...


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## HBB (17 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			I have seen a few people now say she was removed from a yard for mistreatment theft and bullying? Pot kettle black...
		
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Yes, she sadly has form. A below average rider with anger issues, has injured horses in her care, liveries wanted her removed due to her violent outbursts while handling their horses and showed no remorse when she left one horse with a swollen eye after an attack. A previous colleague worked 2 shifts with her and refused to work further with her due to the way she treated clients horses.
There is a lot of shock and anger locally as people can not get their head around why she waited 2 years to release the video and was suddenly upset at what had happened at the clinic. She turned up with a poorly prepared unfit horse and she didn't have the skill or knowledge to ride it at that level, she was completely out her depth, was overly vocal and heavy handed throughout the lesson, she badly let the horse down.
The whole situation is a complete mess.


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## wills_91 (17 February 2022)

HBB said:



			Yes, she sadly has form. A below average rider with anger issues, has injured horses in her care, liveries wanted her removed due to her violent outbursts while handling their horses and showed no remorse when she left one horse with a swollen eye after an attack. A previous colleague worked 2 shifts with her and refused to work further with her due to the way she treated clients horses.
There is a lot of shock and anger locally as people can not get their head around why she waited 2 years to release the video and was suddenly upset at what had happened at the clinic. She turned up with a poorly prepared unfit horse and she didn't have the skill or knowledge to ride it at that level, she was completely out her depth, was overly vocal and heavy handed throughout the lesson, she badly let the horse down.
The whole situation is a complete mess.
		
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Where are you seeing this posted? I haven't read this anywhere else...


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (17 February 2022)

wills_91 said:



			Where are you seeing this posted? I haven't read this anywhere else...
		
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Mostly through mutual friends posts on Facebook as she is quite local to me,
The whole mark todd topic is all over the horsey and eventing forms on Facebook though


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## HBB (17 February 2022)

wills_91 said:



			Where are you seeing this posted? I haven't read this anywhere else...
		
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Do you have friends in the NE of Scotland? There are many posts on FB that have been left as "public" for all to read and I also have friends that know her personally. 
This whole situation is going to have a catastrophic impact on our sport.


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## Upthecreek (17 February 2022)

HBB said:



			Yes, she sadly has form. A below average rider with anger issues, has injured horses in her care, liveries wanted her removed due to her violent outbursts while handling their horses and showed no remorse when she left one horse with a swollen eye after an attack. A previous colleague worked 2 shifts with her and refused to work further with her due to the way she treated clients horses.
There is a lot of shock and anger locally as people can not get their head around why she waited 2 years to release the video and was suddenly upset at what had happened at the clinic. She turned up with a poorly prepared unfit horse and she didn't have the skill or knowledge to ride it at that level, she was completely out her depth, was overly vocal and heavy handed throughout the lesson, she badly let the horse down.
The whole situation is a complete mess.
		
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I’m not sure what relevance any of that information has to the situation MT is in though? He is where he is specifically because of his actions on that day in that clinic. I don’t understand what the alleged ‘form’ of the rider has to do with what he did.


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## muddybay (17 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I’m not sure what relevance any of that information has to the situation MT is in though? He is where he is specifically because of his actions on that day in that clinic. I don’t understand what the alleged ‘form’ of the rider has to do with what he did.
		
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I agree, even if they both agreed to it which there is no evidence to suggest, MT is still at fault for what he did


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## wills_91 (17 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			Mostly through mutual friends posts on Facebook as she is quite local to me,
The whole mark todd topic is all over the horsey and eventing forms on Facebook though
		
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Yes I'm seeing it all over FB but not seen anything about the rider like you've stated.


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## wills_91 (17 February 2022)

Also surely the instructer/trainer has a duty of care and if a horse presents on the day not fit enough or the rider is not at the required level/ability then the rider should be asked to leave?


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## Upthecreek (17 February 2022)

wills_91 said:



			Also surely the instructer/trainer has a duty of care and if a horse presents on the day not fit enough or the rider is not at the required level/ability then the rider should be asked to leave?
		
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Particularly when the instructor/trainer has the vast experience of MT having won many Olympic medals and Badminton, Burghley etc. multiple times. I’m sure someone will suggest in a minute that it was the rider’s idea for MT to whack her horse with a branch to solve the problem. Even if that was the case it doesn’t help his situation at all.


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## HBB (17 February 2022)

wills_91 said:



			Also surely the instructer/trainer has a duty of care and if a horse presents on the day not fit enough or the rider is not at the required level/ability then the rider should be asked to leave?
		
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I agree with everything you have said and MT will have to answer for his actions, the video was awful to watch.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (17 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I’m not sure what relevance any of that information has to the situation MT is in though? He is where he is specifically because of his actions on that day in that clinic. I don’t understand what the alleged ‘form’ of the rider has to do with what he did.
		
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Because it seems very hypocritical that she would make a big fuss of this when she has no issues doing it herself to horses? punching a horses, bullying etc? And that’s from multiple people… 
I don’t agree with what mark todd has done in the video at all and I would not support that kind of training but I think it has all been blown out of proportion, and I don’t think he deserves his career ruined for this…she is partly responsible I think…


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## Upthecreek (17 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			Because it seems very hypocritical that she would make a big fuss of this when she has no issues doing it herself to horses? punching a horses, bullying etc? And that’s from multiple people…
I don’t agree with what mark todd has done in the video at all and I would not support that kind of training but I think it has all been blown out of proportion, and I don’t think he deserves his career ruined for this…she is partly responsible I think…
		
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The thing is though that her motives for posting the video, whatever they may be, are irrelevant. The hypocrisy is also irrelevant. If multiple people have seen her punching and bullying horses perhaps they should have done something about it. She is not responsible in any way for MT’s actions.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (17 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			The thing is though that her motives for posting the video, whatever they may be, are irrelevant. The hypocrisy is also irrelevant. If multiple people have seen her punching and bullying horses perhaps they should have done something about it. She is not responsible in any way for MT’s actions.
		
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do you think his career deserved to be destroyed over this? Cus I would personally say that’s too far… and she is partly responsible for that in my opinion as it could’ve been dealt with privately or to the relevant authorities…not trial by social media 2 years later…I think he made a very bad call but to have his life destroyed over a bad decision… I mean it’s scary no one can ever make a wrong move these days. And yes ive seen people say well if that’s how he treats her horse how does he treat them at home but no one has any proof of that… maybe he does but maybe he doesn’t but I really think it’s gone too far… it was a bad training technique but I doubt it had any lasting effect on the horse (evident by him schooling in the water and doing BE100 few days later). As you say with that girl mistreating other people’s horses if MT has been mistreating horses then people should speak up but not blast him on social media over this one 10 second clip … why is he getting vilified then but the girl is let away with punching other peoples horses? To the point where they got a swollen eye (arguably worse as thats going to last a few days or more)? Neither situations should’ve been blasted all over social media in my opinion


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## Upthecreek (17 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			do you think his career deserved to be destroyed over this? Cus I would personally say that’s too far… and she is partly responsible for that in my opinion as it could’ve been dealt with privately or to the relevant authorities…not trial by social media 2 years later…I think he made a very bad call but to have his life destroyed over a bad decision… I mean it’s scary no one can ever make a wrong move these days. And yes ive seen people say well if that’s how he treats her horse how does he treat them at home but no one has any proof of that… maybe he does but maybe he doesn’t but I really think it’s gone too far… it was a bad training technique but I doubt it had any lasting effect on the horse (evident by him schooling in the water and doing BE100 few days later). As you say with that girl mistreating other people’s horses if MT has been mistreating horses then people should speak up but not blast him on social media over this one 10 second clip … why is he getting vilified then but the girl is let away with punching other peoples horses? To the point where they got a swollen eye? Neither situations should’ve been blasted all over social media in my opinion
		
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It’s not a 10 second clip. Have you watched the unedited video?

It doesn’t matter what I think. He is facing the consequences of being filmed whacking a horse with a branch. He has decades of experience at the highest level of his sport and people are disappointed that someone they respected has behaved like that. As for his reputation and business interests; it is for those who work and associate with him to decide for themselves whether they wish to continue those relationships.  

If the rider is physically abusive to horses as you alleged, she has got away with it because people who witnessed the behaviour did nothing. I still maintain that has no relevance to MT’s situation.

Everyone knows there is a chance that anything they do can be filmed and shared on social media. Like it or not that is the world we are living in now.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (17 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			It’s not a 10 second clip. Have you watched the unedited video?

It doesn’t matter what I think. He is facing the consequences of being filmed whacking a horse with a branch. He has decades of experience at the highest level of his sport and people are disappointed that someone they respected has behaved like that. As for his reputation and business interests; it is for those who work and associate with him to decide for themselves whether they wish to continue those relationships. 

If the rider is physically abusive to horses as you alleged, she has got away with it because people who witnessed the behaviour did nothing. I still maintain that has no relevance to MT’s situation.

Everyone knows there is a chance that anything they do can be filmed and shared on social media. Like it or not that is the world we are living in now.
		
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I have and he was not hitting the horse the whole length of time...of course its about what you think.. thats what this whole thread is of everyone's opinions... and what I think is that the consequences he faced for that were way too harsh... it was a bad training technique, but i dont think his intentions were bad... and by that i mean I dont think he is an animal abusing physco that needs to stay away from horses... i dont think his intentions were to go there and hurt the horse for no reason, he was trying to get the horse in the water... using a very bad an old fashioned training technique, but thats what he did do in that moment... i dont think he does deserve getting vilified for that.

Yes everyone knows you can be filmed and put online...but thats a huge issue we are facing right now that needs addressed, so often things are just shared without any consideration and maybe people need to actually start thinking before they post.


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## Upthecreek (17 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			I have and he was not hitting the horse the whole length of time...of course its about what you think.. thats what this whole thread is of everyone's opinions... and what I think is that the consequences he faced for that were way too harsh... it was a bad training technique, but i dont think his intentions were bad... and by that i mean I dont think he is an animal abusing physco that needs to stay away from horses... i dont think his intentions were to go there and hurt the horse for no reason, he was trying to get the horse in the water... using a very bad an old fashioned training technique, but thats what he did do in that moment... i dont think he does deserve getting vilified for that.

Yes everyone knows you can be filmed and put online...but thats a huge issue we are facing right now that needs addressed, so often things are just shared without any consideration and maybe people need to actually start thinking before they post.
		
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Do you honestly think that was the very first time in his many decades of training horses that MT used that “very bad and old fashioned training technique”? Whilst he may not have intended to physically hurt the horse, what damage do you think has been done to horse sport and horse riding in general as a result of the public watching that video?


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (17 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Do you honestly think that was the very first time in his many decades of training horses that MT used that “very bad and old fashioned training technique”? Whilst he may not have intended to physically hurt the horse, what damage do you think has been done to horse sport and horse riding in general as a result of the public watching that video?
		
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no I don’t but I think these are old fashioned techniques that have been used and probably always needed addressed but why is mark todd singled out then vilified? Should we go on a witch hunt after all the trainers who use this technique now then? We all knew these were techniques still used prior to this so we’re was all the anger before this video? I’m sure he is not the first person to have ever done this in a lesson… Is he to be the sacrificial lamb and get his career destroyed for this? Training techniques have been changing over time but it’s not over night and I certainly don’t think people will have watched this video and changed their minds over night, I don’t think this video has benefitted anyone… there will be those who stick up for MT and send hate and threats to the girl and those that stick up for the girl and send hate and threats to MT, so all it’s turned into is a slanging match and people’s lives are destroyed. Never mind MT but some instructors saying they wouldn’t have her in their lessons either… so who benefitted from blasting over social media?
As for the damage- People are probably going to watch this and think riding is an abusive sport, but it’s not, majority of people don’t ride like this anymore, so then why put it on social media and make it out like it is? the damage was done when she posted this on social media, which is my whole point in the first place that it should have been dealt with privately.


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## Upthecreek (17 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			no I don’t but I think these are old fashioned techniques that have been used and probably always needed addressed but why is mark todd singled out then vilified? Should we go on a witch hunt after all the trainers who use this technique now then? We all knew these were techniques still used prior to this so we’re was all the anger before this video? I’m sure he is not the first person to have ever done this in a lesson… Is he to be the sacrificial lamb and get his career destroyed for this? Training techniques have been changing over time but it’s not over night and I certainly don’t think people will have watched this video and changed their minds over night, I don’t think this video has benefitted anyone… there will be those who stick up for MT and send hate and threats to the girl and those that stick up for the girl and send hate and threats to MT, so all it’s turned into is a slanging match and people’s lives are destroyed. Never mind MT but some instructors saying they wouldn’t have her in their lessons either… so who benefitted from blasting over social media?
As for the damage- People are probably going to watch this and think riding is an abusive sport, but it’s not, majority of people don’t ride like this anymore, so then why put it on social media and make it out like it is? the damage was done when she posted this on social media, which is my whole point in the first place that it should have been dealt with privately.
		
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Well obviously MT has been singled out because he’s been caught on camera doing it! As for your assertion that this is a well known/used technique, I can’t agree with that. And if you think that makes it excusable then we have to agree to disagree. In any case, it doesn’t mean it’s something that should be overlooked. That said the people who send hate and threats to either party are idiots in my opinion, I totally disagree with that.

The damage was done when MT whacked the horse with the branch. The fact it was filmed and shared is a sign of the times, which every single one of us should be aware of.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (17 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Well obviously MT has been singled out because he’s been caught on camera doing it! As for your assertion that this is a well known/used technique, I can’t agree with that. And if you think that makes it excusable then we have to agree to disagree. In any case, it doesn’t mean it’s something that should be overlooked. That said the people who send hate and threats to either party are idiots in my opinion, I totally disagree with that.

The damage was done when MT whacked the horse with the branch. The fact it was filmed and shared is a sign of the times, which every single one of us should be aware of.
		
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it’s just strange that you are not just as outraged by the girl punching a horse and say it has nothing to do with MT situation, maybe doesn’t but this whole issue is about mistreatment of animals hence why I brought it up, I find it very hypocritical of her destroying MT life over this when she (allegedly) punches horses, hence why I brought it up… ok we don’t have that on tape and it is just talk but I don’t think it’s totally irrelevant which is what you were asking about in the first place .
So the difference between someone’s Life destroyed is whether or not they have it on film… I find that scary and wrong, you can say it’s just the way we’re headed, but I think it needs more consideration. People who do bad things need called out, but not trial by social media in my opinion anyway, maybe you disagree but that’s my opinion


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## Upthecreek (17 February 2022)

It is irrelevant because he has been filmed doing what he did and she hasn’t. Perhaps the witnesses to the rider allegedly punching a horse should have done something about it.

As for the trial by media, whether you agree or disagree with it, it’s not where we’re headed it’s where we are. I’m afraid people need to realise that for all the advantages modern technology and social media platforms give us, there is a risk of anything we do in public being filmed and shared.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (17 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			It is irrelevant because he has been filmed doing what he did and she hasn’t. Perhaps the witnesses to the rider allegedly punching a horse should have done something about it.

As for the trial by media, whether you agree or disagree with it, it’s not where we’re headed it’s where we are. I’m afraid people need to realise that for all the advantages modern technology and social media platforms give us, there is a risk of anything we do in public being filmed and shared.
		
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Maybe where we are but people can also actually start thinking about what they’re posting before they post it, aside from the threats to the people involved, like you say it’s only damaging for the sport… MT did what he did at the time, but the damage to the sport was done when she put it on social media, if like you say it’s not a common training technique by posting it she made it seem like it is to the general public who don’t know the sport, which is what is putting the sport at risk. I agree people need to realise the risk, hence why I’m saying maybe more consideration before posting anything


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## Hepsibah (17 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			Maybe where we are but people can also actually start thinking about what they’re posting before they post it, aside from the threats to the people involved, like you say it’s only damaging for the sport… MT did what he did at the time, but the damage to the sport was done when she put it on social media, if like you say it’s not a common training technique by posting it she made it seem like it is to the general public who don’t know the sport, which is what is putting the sport at risk. I agree people need to realise the risk, hence why I’m saying maybe more consideration before posting anything
		
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The damage done to the sport was done when she put it on social media? Are you kidding? If you have got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to worry about. People do need to realise the risk, hence why I'm saying maybe more consideration before mistreating anything.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (17 February 2022)

Hepsibah said:



			The damage done to the sport was done when she put it on social media? Are you kidding? If you have got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to worry about. People do need to realise the risk, hence why I'm saying maybe more consideration before mistreating anything.
		
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Yes because that’s not how most riders these days ride… by putting it on there it makes it seem like it is! I agree more consideration before mistreatment too, but I do think social media is dangerous! Maybe everyone just think before they act on anything!


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## marmalade76 (18 February 2022)

cauda equina said:



			Oh, is that the Top Gear in Tractors thing?
		
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That's actually really good. And it helps that it's presented by someone who does tractor work himself.


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## cauda equina (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			it’s just strange that you are not just as outraged by the girl punching a horse and say it has nothing to do with MT situation, maybe doesn’t but this whole issue is about mistreatment of animals hence why I brought it up, I find it very hypocritical of her destroying MT life over this when she (allegedly) punches horses, hence why I brought it up… ok we don’t have that on tape and it is just talk but I don’t think it’s totally irrelevant which is what you were asking about in the first place .
So the difference between someone’s Life destroyed is whether or not they have it on film… I find that scary and wrong, you can say it’s just the way we’re headed, but I think it needs more consideration. People who do bad things need called out, but not trial by social media in my opinion anyway, maybe you disagree but that’s my opinion
		
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I wonder if she posted it to deflect criticism from herself onto him
Perhaps she was getting slated for her own treatment of horses and thought she could save herself by saying But look what MT did!


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## Regandal (18 February 2022)

I’ve just seen stills from the Panorama programme. Horrific. That poor cow in the crush with blood pouring from her mouth, cows left to die in agony. Dear God 🥵.  Thank goodness for technology that allows such treatment to be exposed. The farm is being investigated.
I’ll be urging everyone I know to boycott Morrisons, they buy milk produced by that farm.


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## eahotson (18 February 2022)

Regandal said:



			I’ve just seen stills from the Panorama programme. Horrific. That poor cow in the crush with blood pouring from her mouth, cows left to die in agony. Dear God 🥵.  Thank goodness for technology that allows such treatment to be exposed. The farm is being investigated.
I’ll be urging everyone I know to boycott Morrisons, they buy milk produced by that farm.
		
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Thank you for the information.


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## ycbm (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			Yes because that’s not how most riders these days ride…
		
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It's only 2 years old,  isn't it?  I don't think anything has changed in that time.  But it will now 3 abuse cases have gone wild on social media in a very short time. In public at least. 
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## TPO (18 February 2022)

ycbm said:



			It's only 2 years old,  isn't it?  I don't think anything has changed in that time.  But it will now 3 abuse cases have gone wild on social media in a very short time. In public at least.
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Exactly....the olden days of, emm, two years ago??

If this chloeteventing is as awful as you imply then where were the owners, employers and fellow liveries? Even if she was the worst person in the world that doesn't excuse or explain MTs actions.

Anyone can post anything. Yes she put the video out there but the spread of it and and traction it gained is because what it contained was upsetting and angering to everyone who cares about horses and has a basic understanding of how not to train a horse.

MT is the only one responsible for his actions.

Of course he shouldn't be receiving death threats or anything of the sort. People making them should be dealt with appropriately as it is an offense.

People popping up to defend him are making it worse with them trying to rewrite what can be seen in full colour and details. The blogger who thought it was funny and oh how they laughed all session about it 🙄 I don't think I'd lose any money if I bet on at least one pro posting in defence trying to get ahead of the game knowing what's been filmed at their own clinics either. 

Stop trying to blame the people against beating and scaring horses for "ruining" the sport and start stopping the people who treat animals that way!


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

TPO said:



			Exactly....the olden days of, emm, two years ago??

If this chloeteventing is as awful as you imply then where were the owners, employers and fellow liveries? Even if she was the worst person in the world that doesn't excuse or explain MTs actions.

Anyone can post anything. Yes she put the video out there but the spread of it and and traction it gained is because what it contained was upsetting and angering to everyone who cares about horses and has a basic understanding of how not to train a horse.

MT is the only one responsible for his actions.

Of course he shouldn't be receiving death threats or anything of the sort. People making them should be dealt with appropriately as it is an offense.

People popping up to defend him are making it worse with them trying to rewrite what can be seen in full colour and details. The blogger who thought it was funny and oh how they laughed all session about it 🙄 I don't think I'd lose any money if I bet on at least one pro posting in defence trying to get ahead of the game knowing what's been filmed at their own clinics either.

Stop trying to blame the people against beating and scaring horses for "ruining" the sport and start stopping the people who treat animals that way!
		
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ycbm said:



			It's only 2 years old,  isn't it?  I don't think anything has changed in that time.  But it will now 3 abuse cases have gone wild on social media in a very short time. In public at least.
.
		
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I feel like I’m going round in circles…
mark todd does not represent how most riders ride tho… I never said these things don’t happen but as others have said this is not common practice, times are changing but it takes time. 

I’m not defending his actions but I am defending him because i find it so wrong how he has been singled out and had his life ruined for this. I don’t think he deserved that at all. How do you deal with the death threats? By keeping it off social media, how else? 

The way this situation has been handled was just totally wrong and I brought up the girls actions because I find it very hypocritical that she would destroy someone’s life over this when she herself has made questionable decisions regarding the welfare of horses. In my opinion people who are there need to deal with it, I have never once said I agree with what he did hence why it should be dealt with appropriately. To me that is not to plaster it all over social media, because it has done no good for anyone


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

TPO said:



			Exactly....the olden days of, emm, two years ago??

If this chloeteventing is as awful as you imply then where were the owners, employers and fellow liveries? Even if she was the worst person in the world that doesn't excuse or explain MTs actions.

Anyone can post anything. Yes she put the video out there but the spread of it and and traction it gained is because what it contained was upsetting and angering to everyone who cares about horses and has a basic understanding of how not to train a horse.

MT is the only one responsible for his actions.

Of course he shouldn't be receiving death threats or anything of the sort. People making them should be dealt with appropriately as it is an offense.

People popping up to defend him are making it worse with them trying to rewrite what can be seen in full colour and details. The blogger who thought it was funny and oh how they laughed all session about it 🙄 I don't think I'd lose any money if I bet on at least one pro posting in defence trying to get ahead of the game knowing what's been filmed at their own clinics either.

Stop trying to blame the people against beating and scaring horses for "ruining" the sport and start stopping the people who treat animals that way!
		
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I’m also not blaming people against beating and scaring horses, but there are other ways of stopping people who mistreat animals, like maybe just telling them first! Before you decide to hang dry and butcher them on social media. My whole point is not trying to defend people who mistreat animals, but is social media, where like you say people will get angry and upset, the best way to deal with it?
And yes you should be angry upset at that video, but then there are always going to be the people who take it one step further and start threatening people. There are also going to be people unfamiliar with the sport thinking that’s how we all ride when it’s not. There’s the negative implacstions for our sport. 
I would say most people already had a basic understanding that that’s not how you train a horse… but to the public who don’t know anything about horses they’re probably going to think that’s common practice. 
it should not have been posted at all, it’s done no good to anyone. Most people already knew that was wrong, and people who don’t are defending MT so no one has changed their minds, all that’s happened is people get threatened and have their lives ruined.


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## Tiddlypom (18 February 2022)

Getting an unwilling horse to jump into water by whacking it will be common practice among the less talented riders and trainers - those with nothing else in their skill set to fall back on.

What most of us are so shocked about is that a rider of MT's experience and talents resorted to doing the same.

I don't think that the video was originally posted with the aim of creating a furore about MT. It was posted with a funny soundtrack to gain laughs, which in itself speaks volumes about the attitude of the person who put it up.


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## Regandal (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			I’m also not blaming people against beating and scaring horses, but there are other ways of stopping people who mistreat animals, like maybe just telling them first! Before you decide to hang dry and butcher them on social media. My whole point is not trying to defend people who mistreat animals, but is social media, where like you say people will get angry and upset, the best way to deal with it?
And yes you should be angry upset at that video, but then there are always going to be the people who take it one step further and start threatening people. There are also going to be people unfamiliar with the sport thinking that’s how we all ride when it’s not. There’s the negative implacstions for our sport.
I would say most people already had a basic understanding that that’s not how you train a horse… but to the public who don’t know anything about horses they’re probably going to think that’s common practice.
it should not have been posted at all, it’s done no good to anyone. Most people already knew that was wrong, and people who don’t are defending MT so no one has changed their minds, all that’s happened is people get threatened and have their lives ruined.
		
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With regard to getting plastered on msm, I think it’s a good thing in most cases. Yes, there are nutters out there, but they’ve always been out there. If the chance of being filmed and exposed on sm stops a good few people abusing animals then hallelujah. Karma has found a smartphone….. and also, that girl’s motives for posting sound a bit suspicious, be sure and your sins will find you out, as my granny used to say.


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## smolmaus (18 February 2022)

I think if people are going to keep stating "his life has been destroyed" we might need to start thinking about whether that is actually true or not. A quick google says he has a net worth of about £2million. He's unlikely to lose his home or business, a quick sale and rebrand of his branded goods might be in order but they're not taking his assets away from him. His racing license has been suspended but that seems more like a small venture rather than his main source of income. 

Maybe he will be boycotted by everyone in the industry, will be forced to sell everything he owns and will become a penniless knight of the realm but uh, doesn't seem likely to me. He's still going to be better off than basically any of us here like.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

Regandal said:



			With regard to getting plastered on msm, I think it’s a good thing in most cases. Yes, there are nutters out there, but they’ve always been out there. If the chance of being filmed and exposed on sm stops a good few people abusing animals then hallelujah. Karma has found a smartphone….. and also, that girl’s motives for posting sound a bit suspicious, be sure and your sins will find you out, as my granny used to say.
		
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Agree to disagree then, posting it on social media but at what cost? Look what happened to the guy who got lifetime banned from showjumping? I mean for him I can’t even defend because what he did was horrific and totally unjustifyinable but this case I would say is so far off that, yet MT has been banned from BHA his whole career depends on and had other impacts on his life and threats. I think I’m this situation it shouldn’t have been posted on social media. I can see we’re not going to agree tho


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

smolmaus said:



			I think if people are going to keep stating "his life has been destroyed" we might need to start thinking about whether that is actually true or not. A quick google says he has a net worth of about £2million. He's unlikely to lose his home or business, a quick sale and rebrand of his branded goods might be in order but they're not taking his assets away from him. His racing license has been suspended but that seems more like a small venture rather than his main source of income.

Maybe he will be boycotted by everyone in the industry, will be forced to sell everything he owns and will become a penniless knight of the realm but uh, doesn't seem likely to me. He's still going to be better off than basically any of us here like.
		
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I think it’s common knowledge by now that money is not everything… look what happened to Caroline flack and what was her net worth


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## Upthecreek (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			Agree to disagree then, posting it on social media but at what cost? Look what happened to the guy who got lifetime banned from showjumping? I mean for him I can’t even defend because what he did was horrific and totally unjustifyinable but this case I would say is so far off that, yet MT has been banned from BHA his whole career depends on and had other impacts on his life and threats. I think I’m this situation it shouldn’t have been posted on social media. I can see we’re not going to agree tho
		
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MT has had his licence suspended, he has not been banned. We can go around in circles all day about the value of stuff like this being posted on social media, but the fact is it has been. I think people need to seriously consider their conduct, which they can control, rather than blaming the fallout from their actions on social media and the person that decided to post it for whatever reason, which they have no control of.


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## smolmaus (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			I think it’s common knowledge by now that money is not everything… look what happened to Caroline flack and what was her net worth
		
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It is distasteful, in my opinion, to use the very sad suicide of a mentally unwell woman to deflect valid criticism from a man who has made a professional error.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

smolmaus said:



			It is distasteful, in my opinion, to use the very sad suicide of a mentally unwell woman to deflect valid criticism from a man who has made a professional error.
		
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I mean you’ve just completely misunderstood the point- that it’s not all about the assets. You don’t think death threats and the entire equestrian community vilifying mark todd has any impact on MT’s mental health? That like you say he’s made a “professional error” therefore he deserves all this??


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			MT has had his licence suspended, he has not been banned. We can go around in circles all day about the value of stuff like this being posted on social media, but the fact is it has been. I think people need to seriously consider their conduct, which they can control, rather than blaming the fallout from their actions on social media and the person that decided to post it for whatever reason, which they have no control of.
		
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I would say after this people will be more conscious of what they’re posting too and how they conduct themselves in dealing with things that are wrong…


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## sakura (18 February 2022)

MT is a grown man and the only one responsible for his actions. If the horse was unfit and not suitable for that level of training, instead of hitting it repeatedly with a branch, perhaps he should have advised the rider that the clinic wasn't suitable for them or adjusted the training for them. Social media is also not to blame. He did it, you can't then get mad at someone for showing people that he did. That is not to defend anyone sending death threats, obviously, but the simple act of sharing footage of a real event is not the problem here - the action is.


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## I'm Dun (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			Agree to disagree then, posting it on social media but at what cost? Look what happened to the guy who got lifetime banned from showjumping? I mean for him I can’t even defend because what he did was horrific and totally unjustifyinable but this case I would say is so far off that, yet MT has been banned from BHA his whole career depends on and had other impacts on his life and threats. I think I’m this situation it shouldn’t have been posted on social media. I can see we’re not going to agree tho
		
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So what should have been done? Nothing would have happened if it had been reported as well you know. So how would you have liked this to be dealt with?


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

Indiangel said:



			MT is a grown man and the only one responsible for his actions. If the horse was unfit and not suitable for that level of training, instead of hitting it repeatedly with a branch, perhaps he should have advised the rider that the clinic wasn't suitable for them or adjusted the training for them. Social media is also not to blame. He did it, you can't then get mad at someone for showing people that he did. That is not to defend anyone sending death threats, obviously, but the simple act of sharing footage of a real event is not the problem here - the action is.
		
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i so disagree with you all, have never disputed what he did was wrong but I am disputing that he didn’t deserve threats and his life ruined, clearly you all think he does but in my opinion this was totally wrong way to handle it


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

I'm Dun said:



			So what should have been done? Nothing would have happened if it had been reported as well you know. So how would you have liked this to be dealt with?
		
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gone to the event organiser or mark todd himself


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## sakura (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			i so disagree with you all, have never disputed what he did was wrong but I am disputing that he didn’t deserve threats and his life ruined, clearly you all think he does but in my opinion this was totally wrong way to handle it
		
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I haven't seen anyone defending someone who has outwardly threatened MT. I think sharing footage of a highly respected professional being cruel to a horse is an important thing to share. I wouldn't want anyone who thinks that behaviour is acceptable around my horse, so I'm glad I know that happened.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

Indiangel said:



			I haven't seen anyone defending someone who has outwardly threatened MT. I think sharing footage of a highly respected professional being cruel to a horse is an important thing to share. I wouldn't want anyone who thinks that behaviour is acceptable around my horse, so I'm glad I know that happened.
		
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fair enough and I can see your point but I think there’s always so many other things that come with sharing a video online.


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## smolmaus (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			I mean you’ve just completely misunderstood the point- that it’s not all about the assets. You don’t think death threats and the entire equestrian community vilifying mark todd has any impact on MT’s mental health? That like you say he’s made a “professional error” therefore he deserves all this??
		
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Nobody here is saying he deserves death threats, and in my opinion his life is unlikely to be ruined. He wasn't caught on camera assaulting a person and looking at a jail sentence as Caroline Flack was and he isn't on the front page of every tabloid newspaper or being stalked from his home and place of work by paparazzi. Its a very different situation, you can't just use Caroline Flack's name as a trump card to stop people being criticised, that's gross. If his mental health is impacted by this I hope he gets the help he needs and anyone sending death threats or harassing him personally is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Its not death threats or unconditional forgiveness and nothing in between.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

smolmaus said:



			Nobody here is saying he deserves death threats, and in my opinion his life is unlikely to be ruined. He wasn't caught on camera assaulting a person and looking at a jail sentence as Caroline Flack was and he isn't on the front page of every tabloid newspaper or being stalked from his home and place of work by paparazzi. Its a very different situation, you can't just use Caroline Flack's name as a trump card to stop people being criticised, that's gross. If his mental health is impacted by this I hope he gets the help he needs and anyone sending death threats or harassing him personally is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Its not death threats or unconditional forgiveness and nothing in between.
		
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mark todds entire life is within the equestrian community and the entire equestrian community is vilifying him… he has now been all over the news including in Australia and usa so the whole world knows. Some of the general public have also now seen this. So i don’t think it’s totally different! You brought up well look how much assets he’s got he’ll be fine, and I brought up Caroline flack because it’s proof that it’s not all about money and assets at all.


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## Regandal (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			mark todds entire life is within the equestrian community and the entire equestrian community is vilifying him… he has now been all over the news including in Australia and usa so the whole world knows. Some of the general public have also now seen this. So i don’t think it’s totally different! You brought up well look how much assets he’s got he’ll be fine, and I brought up Caroline flack because it’s proof that it’s not all about money and assets at all.
		
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Yes, he is being judged by his peers, as he should be. You want people to stop posting stuff on sm? Good luck with that one, the genie is out of the bottle.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

Regandal said:



			Yes, he is being judged by his peers, as he should be. You want people to stop posting stuff on sm? Good luck with that one, the genie is out of the bottle.
		
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obviously it isn’t going to happen now but perhaps people will be more conscious of what they’re putting out there and how they’re handling things from now


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## TPO (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			i so disagree with you all, have never disputed what he did was wrong but I am disputing that he didn’t deserve threats and his life ruined, clearly you all think he does but in my opinion this was totally wrong way to handle it
		
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Threats are a seperate issue and xan be dealt with by the law. People can't make death threats on SM and expect to get away it.

Your arguments make no sense. The "defenders" of his actions are a blogger who thinks it was funny at the time and  very very small number of professionals who have their own backs to watch.

You talk that different action should have been taken on the one hand but no one took again action regarding the allegations being banded about about the clinic participant. Now she is being slandered with NO proof just hearsay. Need to make your mind up what you're actually trying to argue about 🙄


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

TPO said:



			Threats are a seperate issue and xan be dealt with by the law. People can't make death threats on SM and expect to get away it.

Your arguments make no sense. The "defenders" of his actions are a blogger who thinks it was funny at the time and  very very small number of professionals who have their own backs to watch.

You talk that different action should have been taken on the one hand but no one took again action regarding the allegations being banded about about the clinic participant. Now she is being slandered with NO proof just hearsay. Need to make your mind up what you're actually trying to argue about 🙄
		
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My point is it should all be dealt with off social media, I brought that up because I see hypocrisy in what she did that’s all, I wouldn’t have brought it up, in fact only those involved would’ve only known, had this whole situation not been completely blown out of proportion


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## sakura (18 February 2022)

But the general public has a right to know that someone as famous and regarded as MT is capable of that behaviour, "one-off" or not. People shouldn't make threats towards him, but they should know what he thought was acceptable behaviour at the time. If you do a bad deed, you should face the appropriate consequences of it. He is famous so his reputation will always be a large factor - as it should be. Because, again, I wouldn't want him around my horse. I no longer care that he has Olympic medals, I care about what was in that video.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

Indiangel said:



			But the general public has a right to know that someone as famous and regarded as MT is capable of that behaviour, "one-off" or not. People shouldn't make threats towards him, but they should know what he thought was acceptable behaviour at the time. If you do a bad deed, you should face the appropriate consequences of it. He is famous so his reputation will always be a large factor - as it should be. Because, again, I wouldn't want him around my horse. I no longer care that he has Olympic medals, I care about what was in that video.
		
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Do you think he’s facing the appropriate consequences now? Cus I don’t


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## sakura (18 February 2022)

I think he deserves to have his reputation damaged and to lose positions of privilege and trust, I do not think he deserves threats. It is up to him to gain people's trust and respect back. I haven't followed the social media reactions so I am talking generally and not about any specific posts.


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## smolmaus (18 February 2022)

Indiangel said:



			B He is famous so his reputation will always be a large factor - as it should be.
		
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Indeed. The double-edged sword of notoriety. He has made money and gotten access to incredible opportunities off the basis of his name being recognisable with his profession in a positive way, now the consequence is that his name is recognisable when he makes mistakes as well.


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## Lexi_ (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			mark todds entire life is within the equestrian community and the entire equestrian community is vilifying him… he has now been all over the news including in Australia and usa so the whole world knows. Some of the general public have also now seen this. So i don’t think it’s totally different! You brought up well look how much assets he’s got he’ll be fine, and I brought up Caroline flack because it’s proof that it’s not all about money and assets at all.
		
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I’ve seen more than a few people using the #IstandwithMarkTodd hashtag and some of them are eventing pros.

Personally I wouldn’t want to align myself who feels it either funny or appropriate to go full Basil Fawlty on a horse with a massive tree branch, but part of the equestrian community doesn’t seem to have a problem with it.


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## palo1 (18 February 2022)

Years and years ago I would have hit a horse that didn't do as asked when it should have been confident and experienced; that was, to a very small extent how I was taught by one accomplished horseman although even then the greater influence was far more empathic and skilled and came from other directions.  I guess I had a choice of tools and generally speaking I chose the kinder set of tools - not having massive ambition and wanting to create a decent relationship with a horse as well as spending more time with a trainer that was kinder.  In a way, back in the day, that was lucky I think.   But when MT was younger it was not uncommon to see horses smacked/whipped to get them to jump, race etc.  Sadly that would have been a familiar and accepted strategy for some riders.  Things change and we must change with them - I think far, far less people want to physically 'force' a horse these days and that is a good thing; there is no reason for it other than in extremis and for safety reasons.   The thing that really boggles me and makes me sad is that in fact, MT, in whacking that horse showed only the same skill/strategy that I had a very long time ago; I know he is better than that, far more capable etc.  But it's really really crap if MT can't find a better way than an outdated, mean and pretty useless approach to a problem.  I don't care what the rider was doing really though I think perhaps she could learn about preparing for a clinic, or something.  I don't want to demonise MT; I have great respect for his in the saddle riding and achievements.  It's just sad and depressing and I hope that MT vows never to hit another horse as long as he is dealing with them.


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## Sandstone1 (18 February 2022)

The thing is it was not just a smack.   He was putting his whole weight behind it and did it aprox 10 times.   I do not agree with threats on his life but treating a horse like that is just not on.


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## Sossigpoker (18 February 2022)

Lexi_ said:



			I’ve seen more than a few people using the #IstandwithMarkTodd hashtag and some of them are eventing pros.

Personally I wouldn’t want to align myself who feels it either funny or appropriate to go full Basil Fawlty on a horse with a massive tree branch, but part of the equestrian community doesn’t seem to have a problem with it.
		
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You're so right. I'm sure he's a nice guy and those who know him probably say he's a good friend etc and there's no denying that he's archived incredible skills and is without a doubt an incredible rider.
But by saying that you back him , you're saying you don't see a problem with trashing a horse. So people making that pledge just out themselves as horse trashers too. 

Although I have to say that MT has handled this outcry very well : he admitted to it , apologised , voluntarily stepped down as patron of WHW, accepted his racing licence suspension.
I can't imagine someone like Oliver Townend behaving like such a gentleman- I'm still waiting for the outrage over his whip use and the "win pretty or win ugly " comment.


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## Sossigpoker (18 February 2022)

I don't actually wish any harm to his career ,.I hope that he gets his licence back and then publicly distances himself from this behaviour and reaffirms his commitment to training without violence. Yes some might not believe it but it would serve as a good example to those who loom up to him.


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## ycbm (18 February 2022)

smolmaus said:



			A quick google says he has a net worth of about £2million. He's unlikely to lose his home or business,
		
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I would expect almost all of that £2 million to be the value of his home and his business.  If so,  then the loss of training revenues could mean that he has little left to live on, and he could indeed lose both.

A person who owns a £1 million home is a millionaire.  It doesn't mean that they have 2 pence left to rub together to feed themselves.  
.


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## I'm Dun (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			gone to the event organiser or mark todd himself
		
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And what do you think would have happened? Absolutely nothing. The organiser has no power to do anything other than not book him again. The girl has stated in an interview that she did raise it but was told it wasnt hard and was basically fobbed off.

I'm really struggling to see where you are coming from. He hit a horse ten times hard enough for it to be heard on a camera phone video. People cheered and clapped. Why do you think that there should be no repercussions for that?

How bad would it have to be for you to consider it acceptable for it to be shown publicly or is there no situation where you feel people should see something like that?


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

I'm Dun said:



			And what do you think would have happened? Absolutely nothing. The organiser has no power to do anything other than not book him again. The girl has stated in an interview that she did raise it but was told it wasnt hard and was basically fobbed off.

I'm really struggling to see where you are coming from. He hit a horse ten times hard enough for it to be heard on a camera phone video. People cheered and clapped. Why do you think that there should be no repercussions for that?

How bad would it have to be for you to consider it acceptable for it to be shown publicly or is there no situation where you feel people should see something like that?
		
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Not booking him again would be a repercussion… or maybe actually just telling him she didn’t appreciate it and he’d more than likely not do it again


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## Hepsibah (18 February 2022)

I'm Dun said:



			And what do you think would have happened? Absolutely nothing. The organiser has no power to do anything other than not book him again. The girl has stated in an interview that she did raise it but was told it wasnt hard and was basically fobbed off.

I'm really struggling to see where you are coming from. He hit a horse ten times hard enough for it to be heard on a camera phone video. People cheered and clapped. Why do you think that there should be no repercussions for that?

How bad would it have to be for you to consider it acceptable for it to be shown publicly or is there no situation where you feel people should see something like that?
		
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This smacks to me of the same sort of attitude that left children to be abused by the clergy for the good of the church. The sport is not important in the face of the suffering of the horses in the same way the church is not important in the face of the suffering of the children.


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## milliepops (18 February 2022)

In fairness i do understand where BCC is coming from. it would have been more useful to raise a concern at the time either direct to MT,organisers, or whoever his governing body was at the time (quite possibly racing then) rather than a couple of years later scattergun style via SM. if you were serious about dealing with inappropriate treatment of horses that would have been better timing.


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## Hepsibah (18 February 2022)

I don't believe the horse owner was trying to raise concerns with her post, she was just sharing a video she had. BCC appears to simply be embarrassed about the mistreatment of the horse being seen just in case it has an impact on the sport.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

Hepsibah said:



			I don't believe the horse owner was trying to raise concerns with her post, she was just sharing a video she had. BCC appears to simply be embarrassed about the mistreatment of the horse being seen just in case it has an impact on the sport.
		
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What rubbish… I only mentioned that because I was asked what implications would this have on our sport… did you even read all the replies…


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

Hepsibah said:



			I don't believe the horse owner was trying to raise concerns with her post, she was just sharing a video she had. BCC appears to simply be embarrassed about the mistreatment of the horse being seen just in case it has an impact on the sport.
		
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If anything that makes it worse , this video was originally posted for laughs because her friend said it would be funny, she herself is clearly not that bothered about it then, but by posting it she has opened the gates to online bullying, threats and this mans career being destroyed. All a long I have said I don’t agree with what he did but I also don’t agree with how it’s been handled and I don’t agree that he deserved these consequences. It’s all just gotten totally out of hand.


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## sakura (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			by posting it she has wrecked MT lives and opened the gates to online bullying, threats and this mans career being destroyed.
		
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In fairness, whether you agree or disagree about the video being posted, ultimately he is the only one responsible for his actions and any repercussions on his career from them


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## TPO (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			If anything that makes it worse , this video was originally posted for laughs because her friend said it would be funny, she herself is clearly not that bothered about it then, but by posting it she has wrecked MT lives and opened the gates to online bullying, threats and this mans career being destroyed. All a long I have said I don’t agree with what he did but I also don’t agree with how it’s been handled and I don’t agree that he deserved these consequences. It’s all just gotten totally out of hand.
		
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MT "wrecked his life" by doing what he did. HIS actions and actions have repercussions. 

Her posting a video didn't do it. Him doing what was filmed and it being picked up by people who don't agree with beating and scaring horses over fences is what did it.

I don't agree with the death threats or any threats or bad comments towards him but I do agree that the videoed situation is open for discussion. 

Again the defense that "everyone else was laughing" isn't a defence and just shows their questionable mentalities. I'm certainly not sure how a blogger hopes to keep or gain sponsors when they openly admit to laughing at a trainer hitting a horse.

The girl sharing the video isn't bringing about the "end of horse sport" the actions in the video and the wide reaching dismissal/acceptance/defence of it are.


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## YorksG (18 February 2022)

My concern now is that *people * believe that hitting a horse, in one clinic as there is no suggestion that the trainer had any further interaction with the horse, its to be equated with sustained and targeted sexual abuse!


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

TPO said:



			MT "wrecked his life" by doing what he did. HIS actions and actions have repercussions.

Her posting a video didn't do it. Him doing what was filmed and it being picked up by people who don't agree with beating and scaring horses over fences is what did it.

I don't agree with the death threats or any threats or bad comments towards him but I do agree that the videoed situation is open for discussion.

Again the defense that "everyone else was laughing" isn't a defence and just shows their questionable mentalities. I'm certainly not sure how a blogger hopes to keep or gain sponsors when they openly admit to laughing at a trainer hitting a horse.

The girl sharing the video isn't bringing about the "end of horse sport" the actions in the video and the wide reaching dismissal/acceptance/defence of it are.
		
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I don’t think his life deserved to be wrecked by doing this. There are other repercussions than having him plastered on social media. If people brought it up to the event organiser, or maybe even HIM he would probably not do it again. You didn’t even give him a chance you’ve seen one video where he used a bad training technique and decided he needed to be absolutely vilified by the whole community. 
im not talking about the people there laughing, the girl herself posted it because her friend said it would be “funny”. 
As I’ve said most people do not ride like this anymore, times are changing, but by posting it it makes it seems like it is! Yes people who ride like that are responsible for bringing about the end of the sport but MOST PEOPLE DONT. So to the general public it now appears like it is. That’s the danger. Instead of having posted in on social media for the world to see, maybe in future when you see something you disagree with actually tell the person to stop! No one else needs to get involved. More than likely they will and if they don’t then yes they need to face the consequences, whether it would be not ever using them again, firing them or whatever it may be. But I disagree that it needed to be posted on social media.


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## Sossigpoker (18 February 2022)

YorksG said:



			My concern now is that *people * believe that hitting a horse, in one clinic as there is no suggestion that the trainer had any further interaction with the horse, its to be equated with sustained and targeted sexual abuse!
		
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It is not. 
But covering up the abuse for the good of the church is similar to covering up horse abuse for the good of horse sports.


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## TPO (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			I don’t think his life deserved to be wrecked by doing this. There are other repercussions than having him plastered on social media. If people brought it up to the event organiser, or maybe even HIM he would probably not do it again. You didn’t even give him a chance you’ve seen one video where he used a bad training technique and decided he needed to be absolutely vilified by the whole community.
im not talking about the people there laughing, the girl herself posted it because her friend said it would be “funny”.
As I’ve said most people do not ride like this anymore, times are changing, but by posting it it makes it seems like it is! Yes people who ride like that are responsible for bringing about the end of the sport but MOST PEOPLE DONT. So to the general public it now appears like it is. That’s the danger. Instead of having posted in on social media for the world to see, maybe in future when you see something you disagree with actually tell the person to stop! No one else needs to get involved. More than likely they will and if they don’t then yes they need to face the consequences, whether it would be not ever using them again, firing them or whatever it may be. But I disagree that it needed to be posted on social media.
		
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Times are changing? It was 2yrs ago, not 20. This behaviour wasn't acceptable 2yrs ago (or 20yrs ago).

So anything "harmful" is to be swept under the rug so others can keep doing doing the sport as they wish.

His life is hardly wrecked; I was quoting you as you are the one relating this narrative. Based on those so determined to defend his actions, bareface lie about what people can see and hear for themselves and openly admit how funny they all found it on the day I highly doubt he will struggle to sell out clinics should he wish to hold any again. 

At least now people can make an informed choice rather than it being the kind of thing spoken about behind closed doors. 

It's a suspension by BHA, not a ban. 

The man himself is acting with a lot more dignity than the people determined to attempt to defend his actions.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

TPO said:



			Times are changing? It was 2yrs ago, not 20. This behaviour wasn't acceptable 2yrs ago (or 20yrs ago).

So anything "harmful" is to be swept under the rug so others can keep doing doing the sport as they wish.

His life is hardly wrecked; I was quoting you as you are the one relating this narrative. Based on those so determined to defend his actions, bareface lie about what people can see and hear for themselves and openly admit how funny they all found it on the day I highly doubt he will struggle to sell out clinics should he wish to hold any again.

At least now people can make an informed choice rather than it being the kind of thing spoken about behind closed doors.

It's a suspension by BHA, not a ban.

The man himself is acting with a lot more dignity than the people determined to attempt to defend his actions.
		
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Agree to disagree then, I don’t feel like going round in circles. 
when have I said to sweep it under the rug? Can you not just tell the man and give him a chance to rectify his methods? Didn’t think it was too much to ask for before he is vilified by most the equestrian community but apparently so.


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## YorksG (18 February 2022)

Sossigpoker said:



			It is not.
But covering up the abuse for the good of the church is similar to covering up horse abuse for the good of horse sports.
		
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That is a direct equating of the two and hugely offensive to any abuse survivors. Ridiculous analogy in my opinion


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## Sossigpoker (18 February 2022)

TPO said:



			The man himself is acting with a lot more dignity than the people determined to attempt to defend his actions.
		
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He is handling this admirably , I have to agree to that.


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## sakura (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			As I’ve said most people do not ride like this anymore, times are changing, but by posting it it makes it seems like it is! Yes people who ride like that are responsible for bringing about the end of the sport but MOST PEOPLE DONT. So to the general public it now appears like it is. That’s the danger.
		
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It was two years ago, and it was MT who trained like that. His actions that day are what you should be most annoyed about as that’s what is painting horse sports in a bad light.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

Indiangel said:



			It was two years ago, and it was MT who trained like that. His actions that day are what you should be most annoyed about as that’s what is painting horse sports in a bad light.
		
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MT does not represent how everyone rides…as evident by this forum and every where else most people already did not agree with this…


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## MagicMelon (18 February 2022)

Totally awful what he did, I always respected MT as he looked like he understood and was kind to his horses so I feel rather let down by his actions. Fed up with people all over facebook sharing "support" for him. How on earth can you support someone pelting a horse to literally scare it into water. What a great way to build trust and confidence... This abusive rubbish really needs to stop in the horse world, its ridiculous in this day and age that we're still whipping / forcing horses into situations they're clearly worried while the riders/trainers use the pathetic excuse the horse was taking the pee.


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## MagicMelon (18 February 2022)

Nicnac said:



			This was two years ago.  Why it is just surfacing and where's the proof it was Mark Todd?  Not condoning it in any way as vile and abusive behaviour but am extremely sceptical of social media.
		
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It was taken at a clinic in Scotland, various people on my facebook have said they were in the group. It definately is him. You can see its him from the video!


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## Cortez (18 February 2022)

Just curious, do you all think that horses ALWAYS do things because they trust and are confident? Do you think they never need to be made to do something?


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## ester (18 February 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			It was taken at a clinic in Scotland, various people on my facebook have said they were in the group. It definately is him. You can see its him from the video!
		
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TBF that post was a week ago....


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## Nicnac (18 February 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			It was taken at a clinic in Scotland, various people on my facebook have said they were in the group. It definately is him. You can see its him from the video!
		
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You replied today to my comment which was written last Saturday. Yes I know it's him now.

Interesting article in H&H today: https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...o-give-fuller-picture-of-viral-footage-777863


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## AdorableAlice (18 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Just curious, do you all think that horses ALWAYS do things because they trust and are confident? Do you think they never need to be made to do something?
		
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A lot of horses do things that are rude and dangerous because they have never been correctly trained to do things in a polite and respectful manner in my view.  Plus a lot of owners have no idea what a polite horse is and are happy to tolerate poor behaviour as the normal.


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## MagicMelon (18 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Just curious, do you all think that horses ALWAYS do things because they trust and are confident? Do you think they never need to be made to do something?
		
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Yes I feel its 100% the way to go with training. However yes I also agree there are times that a horse may HAVE to do something (take veterinary treatment, load to get home from a show etc.). But I feel the vast majority of things should be done respectfully with the aim to build trust and confidence in the horse as I genuinely think the horse is more likely to do it right the next time rather than just beaten into it. Surely that makes sense? So many people in the horse world seem to want a quick fix so they'll smack the horse into jumping or whatever. I dont believe a horse HAS to jump, it should WANT to do it and be willing and happy to do so surely? I honestly feel the tradition of carrying a whip should be gone, I dont even own a whip (other than lunge whip) and I seem to be in the tiny minority. Why is in the norm to carry a whip and to use it so easily.


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## cauda equina (18 February 2022)

'She did not know the horse had been hit until she watched the video later'
I find that hard to believe


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## MagicMelon (18 February 2022)

Nicnac said:



			You replied today to my comment which was written last Saturday. Yes I know it's him now.

Interesting article in H&H today: https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...o-give-fuller-picture-of-viral-footage-777863

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I dont feel the article changes anything, if anything I dont believe it. 

“My take was that it wasn’t pleasurable to watch but Mark had been specifically asked to fix this and problem-solve, and my take is that’s exactly what he did, and he did it without any anger or aggression at all,” he said, adding that the horse showed no signs of fear of anxiety, and the rider appeared “over the moon, delighted” afterwards. The cheer that went up when the horse jumped in can be heard on the video." - I mean how is it not aggressive to rush up behind the horse and smack him with a stick several times?  He was literally chasing and scaring it into the water. The horse clearly looks worried, it doesnt look happy! What this "professional" says is rubbish IMO. I also hate when these reports make a point of saying "professional", that means nothing. Many professionals are awful.


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## Regandal (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			Instead of having posted in on social media for the world to see, maybe in future when you see something you disagree with actually tell the person to stop! No one else needs to get involved. More than likely they will[/QUOTE

Yeah, sure they will. I admire your optimism.
		
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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

worth trying first how do you know if you don’t give it a shot


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## Cortez (18 February 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			Yes I feel its 100% the way to go with training. However yes I also agree there are times that a horse may HAVE to do something (take veterinary treatment, load to get home from a show etc.). But I feel the vast majority of things should be done respectfully with the aim to build trust and confidence in the horse as I genuinely think the horse is more likely to do it right the next time rather than just beaten into it. Surely that makes sense? So many people in the horse world seem to want a quick fix so they'll smack the horse into jumping or whatever. I dont believe a horse HAS to jump, it should WANT to do it and be willing and happy to do so surely? I honestly feel the tradition of carrying a whip should be gone, I dont even own a whip (other than lunge whip) and I seem to be in the tiny minority. Why is in the norm to carry a whip and to use it so easily.
		
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A stick used correctly, as a tool not a weapon, is a useful thing to refine the aids, just like the spur.


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## sakura (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			MT does not represent how everyone rides…as evident by this forum and every where else most people already did not agree with this…
		
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No, he was the coach and he seemingly didn’t hesitate to grab a branch and hit a horse with it. The rider is not in question in this situation - MT is and he’s a greater ambassador for the sport than the rider.

Hence why if you think this video is bad marketing for horse sport, the fault lies with MT. It seems misplaced to blame the rider for posting the video on social media


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

Indiangel said:



			No, he was the coach and he seemingly didn’t hesitate to grab a branch and hit a horse with it. The rider is not in question in this situation - MT is and he’s a greater ambassador for the sport than the rider.

Hence why if you think this video is bad marketing for horse sport, the fault lies with MT. It seems misplaced to blame the rider for posting the video on social media
		
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becauee I think she handled it wrong it shouldn’t have been put on social media. As from comments from several who have been to his clinics this clearly isn’t how he commonly trains. No it doesn’t justify what he did but in my eyes he made a mistake that could’ve been easily rectified if he just was told. I’m certain if she would’ve said to him he wouldn’t have done it again, not just to her horse but others too, he’s not a monster his intent was not to hurt the horse, he used a bad training technique and I’m sure he would’ve understood and I don’t think he deserves to have his career and reputation destroyed over this mistake or have threats come to him. I don’t think everyone did need to get involved. It was handled wrong in my opinion


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## ycbm (18 February 2022)

I honestly feel the tradition of carrying a whip should be gone, I dont even own a whip (other than lunge whip) and I seem to be in the tiny minority. Why is in the norm to carry a whip and to use it so easily.
		
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Because they have very good uses, either for communication or safety.  
.


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## Bellaboo18 (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			becauee I think she handled it wrong it shouldn’t have been put on social media. As from comments from several who have been to his clinics this clearly isn’t how he commonly trains. No it doesn’t justify what he did but in my eyes he made a mistake that could’ve been easily rectified if he just was told. I’m certain if she would’ve said to him he wouldn’t have done it again, not just to her horse but others too, he’s not a monster his intent was not to hurt the horse, he used a bad training technique and I’m sure he would’ve understood and I don’t think he deserves to have his career and reputation destroyed over this mistake or have threats come to him. I don’t think everyone did need to get involved. It was handled wrong in my opinion
		
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Sorry, the most naive post I've even seen! So if the rider had told MT she didn't like his training techniques you think he'd have never used them again?! 😱


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## sakura (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			becauee I think she handled it wrong it shouldn’t have been put on social media. As from comments from several who have been to his clinics this clearly isn’t how he commonly trains. No it doesn’t justify what he did but in my eyes he made a mistake that could’ve been easily rectified if he just was told. I’m certain if she would’ve said to him he wouldn’t have done it again, not just to her horse but others too, he’s not a monster his intent was not to hurt the horse, he used a bad training technique and I’m sure he would’ve understood and I don’t think he deserves to have his career and reputation destroyed over this mistake or have threats come to him. I don’t think everyone did need to get involved. It was handled wrong in my opinion
		
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I appreciate your optimism, but MT is an Olympic rider. He shouldn’t need to be told that what he did was wrong


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

Bellaboo18 said:



			Sorry, the most naive post I've even seen! So if the rider had told MT she didn't like his training techniques you think he'd have never used them again?! 😱
		
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Probably yeah! He’d have realised that people don’t like that. As I said it’s clearly not how he commonly trains other people.. I’ve no idea what he does at home but we don’t have proof of that. He made a mistake, and give the man a chance? How do you know? If this is something he is carrying on doing then sure… but of all the MT clinics there’s been and majority of people film them due to who he is there has only been one video! So I have no reason to believe it was anything other than a mistake. Before taking such drastic actions to plaster it online maybe just try saying something to him!


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## palo1 (18 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			Just curious, do you all think that horses ALWAYS do things because they trust and are confident? Do you think they never need to be made to do something?
		
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That is a really thought provoking question!  For me, as an amateur/leisure rider and owner there would be few occasions where a horse would need to be made to do anything.  If I can't get a horse to do something I tend to think that is my failing rather than the horse's and thus the horse probably shouldn't face negative consequences as a result of my lack of skill.  I keep horses because I like them, find them interesting, love the various challenges of training and riding etc.  I can think of a couple of times when a horse would or could be made to do something and if it involved safety (mine or horse's) then I would use whatever means necessary to achieve that outcome.   There must be some situations where negotiation and fairness get compromised out of necessity or for long term benefit but that is quite nuanced I think.  If I were a professional, with my home, business and the lives of other animals at stake then I would be more easily persuaded to use a variety of strategies to get a job done.  But that is the conundrum morally about 'using' an animal.  I don't have a huge problem with having a relationship with an animal, I eat meat and we have our own stock killed but somehow competition feels different; it's interesting to think about.

I guess my experience is that if I choose to keep a horse for fun then I should probably train it without force and with the best care I can provide; that is the moral framework I have for keeping an animal and that seems just as valid when I consider keeping an animal for food!  I am not sure what the moral framework for other business purposes is tbh!!


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## ester (18 February 2022)

He'd have known 1 person didn't like that, not 'people'?


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## Bellaboo18 (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			Probably yeah! He’d have realised that people don’t like that. As I said it’s clearly not how he commonly trains other people.. I’ve no idea what he does at home but we don’t have proof of that. He made a mistake, and give the man a chance? How do you know? If this is something he is carrying on doing then sure… but of all the MT clinics there’s been and majority of people film them due to who he is there has only been one video! So I have no reason to believe it was anything other than a mistake. Before taking such drastic actions to plaster it online maybe just try saying something to him!
		
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Ester answered this for me. 

I find it odd you're keen to give MT a chance, what about the horse?


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## Hepsibah (18 February 2022)

YorksG said:



			My concern now is that *people * believe that hitting a horse, in one clinic as there is no suggestion that the trainer had any further interaction with the horse, its to be equated with sustained and targeted sexual abuse!
		
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We are not talking of just one incident here, rather that anybody who has filmed abusive behaviour should think twice before posting the footage online in case it is bad for "the sport".


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## YorksG (18 February 2022)

Hepsibah said:



			We are not talking of just one incident here, rather that anybody who has filmed abusive behaviour should think twice before posting the footage online in case it is bad for "the sport".
		
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Well actually we were talking about one incident. I am appalled that anyone would equate hitting a horse with a child being subjected to sexual abuse.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

ester said:



			He'd have known 1 person didn't like that, not 'people'?
		
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I mean like I say I don’t think this is common practice in his clinics, there was this one incidence… if she’d have said I think he would’ve understood not to do it to anyone again


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

Bellaboo18 said:



			Ester answered this for me.

I find it odd you're keen to give MT a chance, what about the horse?
		
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What about the horse? He was jumping round BE100 and schooling in the water a few days later… 
I agree in the video he was wayyyy harsh with his approach, didn’t give the horse a chance to look but it’s been done now, I think MT should’ve had the chance to be aware of his actions and rectify his mistake… before it was blasted on social media


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## Hepsibah (18 February 2022)

TPO said:



			....

The man himself is acting with a lot more dignity than the people determined to attempt to defend his actions.
		
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This is undeniably true. I have no particular beef with this man. He got it wrong, he admitted it and has the grace to be embarrassed and ashamed. It is the mentality that it is not okay to be talked about or seen, that this sort of thing shouldn't be called out, rooted out and roundly condemned that is most concerning to me.


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## TPO (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			I mean like I say I don’t think this is common practice in his clinics, there was this one incidence… if she’d have said I think he would’ve understood not to do it to anyone again
		
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"I don't think"

No one "thought" that MT would do this before they saw the video for themselves.

Apparently she did say and was dismissed. SHE isn't the issue. Regardless of her motives for posting it (for laughs/attention/revenge?) it's what IN the video that is the issue. There are thousands of "influencers" out there posting videos of their lessons and riding. This one has become notorious because it features MT being abusive towards a horse. Not sure what you're not getting?!


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

TPO said:



			"I don't think"

No one "thought" that MT would do this before they saw the video for themselves.

Apparently she did say and was dismissed. SHE isn't the issue. Regardless of her motives for posting it (for laughs/attention/revenge?) it's what IN the video that is the issue. There are thousands of "influencers" out there posting videos of their lessons and riding. This one has become notorious because it features MT being abusive towards a horse. Not sure what you're not getting?!
		
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It should’ve been handled differently, before putting on social media. He made a mistake and now he’s getting death threats, people are boycotting his brand, he’s been suspended from his career… for what in my opinion was a mistake in using a bad training technique. Because we have no other proof it is common practice for him, he should’ve been given a chance before such harsh consequences and threats, it is near on impossible to control the threats that people are going to send out, so before he is subject to such harsh consequences he should’ve been given a chance…  I’m not sure what you’re not getting!?


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## Upthecreek (18 February 2022)

YorksG said:



			Well actually we were talking about one incident. I am appalled that anyone would equate hitting a horse with a child being subjected to sexual abuse.
		
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I don’t think Hepsibah was equating hitting a horse with a child being subjected to sexual abuse. I read it that the comparison was to demonstrate how organisations sweep allegations under the carpet or turn a blind eye, which may be in the best interests of the organisations but obviously not in the best interests of the victims.


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## TPO (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			It should’ve been handled differently, before putting on social media. He made a mistake and now he’s getting death threats, people are boycotting his brand, he’s been suspended from his career… for what in my opinion was a mistake in using a bad training technique. Because we have no other proof it is common practice for him, he should’ve been given a chance before such harsh consequences and threats, it is near on impossible to control the threats that people are going to send out, so before he is subject to such harsh consequences he should’ve been given a chance…  I’m not sure what you’re not getting!?
		
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You're going to have to make your mind up because you claim that the rider put the video up laughs. Therefore nothing to "handle". It was the people who watched it and shared it in horror/disgust that meant it gained traction.

So how many times do people have to be caught with unequivocal evidence/proof before they can be held accountable?

I can see nothing wrong with how the man himself has handled the situation. He owned up to it, he apologised (to the horse 🤔), he stepped down from WHW and has accepted the BHA suspension while they review the situation.

It's people like you who are making things worse for him with the nonsensical circular arguments where they don't seem quite sure of what their point is. 

Any threats towards him are breaking the law and should be dealt with accordingly. No one with a brain cell is supportive of that.


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## YorksG (18 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I don’t think Hepsibah was equating hitting a horse with a child being subjected to sexual abuse. I read it that the comparison was to demonstrate how organisations sweep allegations under the carpet or turn a blind eye, which may be in the best interests of the organisations but obviously not in the best interests of the victims.
		
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The comparison was crass and in very bad taste imo.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

TPO said:



			You're going to have to make your mind up because you claim that the rider put the video up laughs. Therefore nothing to "handle". It was the people who watched it and shared it in horror/disgust that meant it gained traction.

So how many times do people have to be caught with unequivocal evidence/proof before they can be held accountable?

I can see nothing wrong with how the man himself has handled the situation. He owned up to it, he apologised (to the horse 🤔), he stepped down from WHW and has accepted the BHA suspension while they review the situation.

It's people like you who are making things worse for him with the nonsensical circular arguments where they don't seem quite sure of what their point is.

Any threats towards him are breaking the law and should be dealt with accordingly. No one with a brain cell is supportive of that.
		
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im saying the girl put it up for laughs, not that ME personally thinks it’s funny, maybe she didn’t think there was anything to handle I don’t know.

You’re just completely missing the point- that it’s gotten way out of hand that it didn’t need to be put on social media first. How do you know he wouldn’t have apologised to her at the time? You can say it’s optimistic but just try…like surely first step is to try the less drastic measure then if it doesn’t work then do something else, put it o social media whatever.

I’m just going to leave it because we are never going to agree.
I don’t think it was handled right, no I don’t think what he did was acceptable, and I am absolutely not saying to brush it under the rug! But there are other ways of talking about it before it gets to social media in my opinion.
I think this has gotten out of hand for what was a bad technique used, I don’t think MT is a monster or an animal abuser
and I think it’s gotten way out of hand


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## Hepsibah (18 February 2022)

YorksG said:



			That is a direct equating of the two and hugely offensive to any abuse survivors. Ridiculous analogy in my opinion
		
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FWIW, it is my analogy and I am an abuse survivor. 14 years worth. Your argument is invalid.


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## YorksG (18 February 2022)

Hepsibah said:



			FWIW, it is my analogy and I am an abuse survivor. 14 years worth. Your argument is invalid.
		
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Having spent 40 years working with survivors of, mainly, organised abuse, I stand by my argument


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## TPO (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			im saying the girl put it up for laughs, not that ME personally thinks it’s funny, maybe she didn’t think there was anything to handle I don’t know.

You’re just completely missing the point- that it’s gotten way out of hand that it didn’t need to be put on social media first. How do you know he wouldn’t have apologised to her at the time? You can say it’s optimistic but just try…like surely first step is to try the less drastic measure then if it doesn’t work then do something else, put it o social media whatever.

I’m just going to leave it because we are never going to agree.
I don’t think it was handled right, no I don’t think what he did was acceptable, and I am absolutely not saying to brush it under the rug! But there are other ways of talking about it before it gets to social media in my opinion.
I think this has gotten out of hand for what was a bad technique used, I don’t think MT is a monster or an animal abuser
and I think it’s gotten way out of hand
		
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YOU are missing the point

If she put it up "for laughs", as you've repeatedly claimed, then she didn't post it to "wreck his life", as you also claim.

No one on this forum has called him a "monster" but most are united in condemning the abuse of that horse at the clinic. 

The best thing about banging your head off a brick wall is the relief when you stop.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

TPO said:



			YOU are missing the point

If she put it up "for laughs", as you've repeatedly claimed, then she didn't post it to "wreck his life", as you also claim.

No one on this forum has called him a "monster" but most are united in condemning the abuse of that horse at the clinic.

The best thing about banging your head off a brick wall is the relief when you stop.
		
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But before you put something up for laughs… just think about what effects it might have? I’m not sure she’s going to be finding it funny now?
I agree with you it was wrong but the whole argument is whether or not it was handled correctly and in my opinion it was not.


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## Hepsibah (18 February 2022)

YorksG said:



			Having spent 40 years working with survivors of, mainly, organised abuse, I stand by my argument
		
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Perhaps but being somebody who has the lived experience of an abused child, I can say for certain that I empathise with any innocent abused with no recourse and no hope of help.


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## Hepsibah (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			But before you put something up for laughs… just think about what effects it might have? I’m not sure she’s going to be finding it funny now?
I agree with you it was wrong but the whole argument is whether or not it was handled correctly and in my opinion it was not.
		
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What about if the effect it might have is that it prevents other people thinking it's okay to beat the crap out of a horse?


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## Bellaboo18 (18 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			What about the horse? He was jumping round BE100 and schooling in the water a few days later… 
I agree in the video he was wayyyy harsh with his approach, didn’t give the horse a chance to look but it’s been done now, I think MT should’ve had the chance to be aware of his actions and rectify his mistake… before it was blasted on social media
		
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I'm not sure what the fact he was jumping round BE100 days later has to do with the episode but it does say alot about your thoughts on horse welfare.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (18 February 2022)

Bellaboo18 said:



			I'm not sure what the fact he was jumping round BE100 days later has to do with the episode but it does say alot about your thoughts on horse welfare.
		
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it doesn’t say what you’re insinuating. I don’t know how many times I’ve said what he did was wrong.


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## Sossigpoker (18 February 2022)

Indiangel said:



			I appreciate your optimism, but MT is an Olympic rider. He shouldn’t need to be told that what he did was wrong
		
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He doesn't.  He's admitted it was wrong and has apologised .


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## maggiestar (19 February 2022)

The bottom line is that Mark Todd was wrong to do what he did but he's now paying huge consequences for something that happened two years ago. It makes me wonder whether who is the cruellest? Someone who acted like an oaf in a split second? Or those who are piling on him now? (Including the rider who was apparently too scared to advocate for her own horse at the time) 
It reminds me of a thread recently about another big name who used insensitive language during a workshop. The offended person didn't say anything at the time but wrote it here and the advice was to complain to the venue etc. Justice is always served cold these days. Why don't we give each other the opportunity to rectify things on the spot anymore? If someone is being an idiot, the kindest thing is to tell them to their face. Give people a chance. Don't sneak around on social media after the fact. It's cruel, vindictive, and cowardly to pile on  individuals from behind a keyboard. Getting people cancelled. Ruining careers. If I ever messed up I would be so grateful to be told on the spot rather than find out later that I'm the subject of a social media frenzy. 
And yes, I hate what MT did to that horse. Good on him for apologising. If only the rider had stood up for her animal at the time!


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## cauda equina (19 February 2022)

Kindness and decency should operate in all directions
We should treat all animals well, and that includes our fellow humans


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## sakura (19 February 2022)

Sossigpoker said:



			He doesn't.  He's admitted it was wrong and has apologised .
		
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I was replying to a post that suggested if he had been told his actions were wrong at the time, he wouldn’t do it again. My point was that he shouldn’t have needed to be told it was wrong to not do it


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## I'm Dun (19 February 2022)

You know why most people are in prison for murder? A split second loss of temper, and 99% of them never reoffend. Now I am no way equating the two actions, but if split second loss of tempers are ignored, where do we draw the line?

The poster has been interviewed here. Skip to 10.36 unless you want to hear one of the worst influencers waffling on for 10mins!


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## bonny (19 February 2022)

I'm Dun said:



			You know why most people are in prison for murder? A split second loss of temper, and 99% of them never reoffend. Now I am no way equating the two actions, but if split second loss of tempers are ignored, where do we draw the line?

The poster has been interviewed here. Skip to 10.36 unless you want to hear one of the worst influencers waffling on for 10mins!







Click to expand...

Murder means it was premeditated not a sudden loss of temper.


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## ycbm (19 February 2022)

bonny said:



			Murder means it was premeditated not a sudden loss of temper.
		
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No so Bonny, sorry.  Murder means it was intentional.  You can lose your temper suddenly and still intend to kill the person.  
.


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## scats (19 February 2022)

I'm Dun said:



			You know why most people are in prison for murder? A split second loss of temper, and 99% of them never reoffend. Now I am no way equating the two actions, but if split second loss of tempers are ignored, where do we draw the line?

The poster has been interviewed here. Skip to 10.36 unless you want to hear one of the worst influencers waffling on for 10mins!







Click to expand...

Does she explain why she waited 2 years? Tried to watch it but the irritating interviewer was too much for me!


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## wills_91 (19 February 2022)

scats said:



			Does she explain why she waited 2 years? Tried to watch it but the irritating interviewer was too much for me!
		
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No she doesn't, but she does say she mentioned it at the time and was brushed aside with remarks "he didn't hit him that hard"


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## teapot (19 February 2022)

Has anyone seen her latest Instagram reel (of an older video)?

Trying to work out if the rubs behind her legs are sweat marks or spur marks…


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## Upthecreek (19 February 2022)

maggiestar said:



			The bottom line is that Mark Todd was wrong to do what he did but he's now paying huge consequences for something that happened two years ago. It makes me wonder whether who is the cruellest? Someone who acted like an oaf in a split second? Or those who are piling on him now? (Including the rider who was apparently too scared to advocate for her own horse at the time)
It reminds me of a thread recently about another big name who used insensitive language during a workshop. The offended person didn't say anything at the time but wrote it here and the advice was to complain to the venue etc. Justice is always served cold these days. Why don't we give each other the opportunity to rectify things on the spot anymore? If someone is being an idiot, the kindest thing is to tell them to their face. Give people a chance. Don't sneak around on social media after the fact. It's cruel, vindictive, and cowardly to pile on  individuals from behind a keyboard. Getting people cancelled. Ruining careers. If I ever messed up I would be so grateful to be told on the spot rather than find out later that I'm the subject of a social media frenzy.
And yes, I hate what MT did to that horse. Good on him for apologising. If only the rider had stood up for her animal at the time!
		
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I think we have to remember that most young people haven’t experienced life without social media. Most of their communication is done by messaging rather than face to face and I can see in my own kids aged 17, 19 and 22 that is definitely their preference. I don’t know what the answer is but I can certainly see why some people might find awkward or difficult face to face conversations uncomfortable. Modern technology has given people the ability to say things from behind a keyboard that they would probably not have the balls to say in person.


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## maggiestar (19 February 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			I think we have to remember that most young people haven’t experienced life without social media. Most of their communication is done by messaging rather than face to face and I can see in my own kids aged 17, 19 and 22 that is definitely their preference. I don’t know what the answer is but I can certainly see why some people might find awkward or difficult face to face conversations uncomfortable. Modern technology has given people the ability to say things from behind a keyboard that they would probably not have the balls to say in person.
		
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Yes, there's a lot of truth in this. I think it's sad. Face to face communication is such an important part of being human and it seems as if we're losing the skill. That's why it's so easy to dehumanise each other


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## Kaylum (20 February 2022)

EMSPony said:



			I was browsing 'equestrian books' on amazon last night, looking for my next read, and this popped up

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cant-Watch-Anymore-Dropping-Equestrian/dp/8797354309/ref=sr_1_19?crid=32GF5DPHDBJW4&keywords=equestrian+books&qid=1644851682&sprefix=equestrian+books,aps,81&sr=8-19

I haven't ordered it, but it sounds pretty eyebrow raising, and made me think how much top level sport really needs to clean up both it's image and its actions if people are going to carry on using horses in this way.  It's really getting harder to justify the 'norm' for a lot of people.
		
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I have got the tug of war book it's very interesting. Also shocked to see more horses looking terrible on instagram ridden by professionals. I dislike dressage so much.  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284646261644?mkevt=1&mkcid=16&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0


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## AFishOutOfWater (21 February 2022)

Have people seen this? 

Rider who shared Mark Todd viral video was given final warning at previous job for ‘hitting and kicking’ horses and ‘bullying’ - Horse & Hound (horseandhound.co.uk)


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## laura_nash (21 February 2022)

Snail said:



			Have people seen this?

Rider who shared Mark Todd viral video was given final warning at previous job for ‘hitting and kicking’ horses and ‘bullying’ - Horse & Hound (horseandhound.co.uk)

Click to expand...

I don't really see how it's relevant.  Unless the suggestion is that the rider somehow persuaded an experienced Olympic competitor to behave contrary to his usual behaviour.  Obviously he's admitted it was him and he behaved like that, no suggestion the video was altered, so her truthfulness is irrelevant.  Her own abusive behaviour, if true, had nothing to do with what happened.


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## AFishOutOfWater (21 February 2022)

Doesn't it lend further strength to the suggestion that she's doing it for likes rather than genuine outrage though?


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## Tiddlypom (21 February 2022)

Hmm, I'm not particularly happy that H&H has reported on that by jumping in to help trash the reputation of the clinic rider. 

The girl wasn't riding aggressively in the video, she was riding weakly. Maybe she is thoroughly unpleasant IRL, but MT's actions were his own.

What a mess.


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## AFishOutOfWater (21 February 2022)

Undoubtedly both have made mistakes in their equestrian and personal lives, maybe it would have been better if all of it had just stayed in the past.


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## Bay.chestnut.coloure (21 February 2022)

laura_nash said:



			I don't really see how it's relevant.  Unless the suggestion is that the rider somehow persuaded an experienced Olympic competitor to behave contrary to his usual behaviour.  Obviously he's admitted it was him and he behaved like that, no suggestion the video was altered, so her truthfulness is irrelevant.  Her own abusive behaviour, if true, had nothing to do with what happened.
		
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Maybe that she should’ve given MT the same chance she had to learn from her bad choices… regardless of if MT is an Olympic trainer he made a bad judgement he’s only human. As I’ve said I’ve no reason to believe it’s common practice seeing as some of the comments say how kind he was at their clinics. No there’s no guarantee he would’ve changed his ways but I think he should’ve at least been given a chance. And before you go comparing it to murder or sexual abuse, where people don’t deserve a 2nd chance, this is so far off it. No one is saying to sweep it under the rug but just use your common sense and good judgement to decide what’s best way to deal with it…still think it should’ve ALL stayed offline and I know you are all probably sick to death of me harping on about it. But this constant witch hunting is no good for anyone.


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## laura_nash (21 February 2022)

Bay.chestnut.coloure said:



			Maybe that she should’ve given MT the same chance she had to learn from her bad choices…
		
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 I believe the article says she lost her job?

I don't agree with a lot of the vitriol online (not on here).  For me, it doesn't really change my opinion of Mark Todd, he's still an amazing rider, especially cross country, and that doesn't change.  I never had a hero worship of him beyond his riding ability, or any opinion either way of him as a coach.

If I was ever in a position to consider whether to have a clinic with him (massively unlikely) then this would make a difference to my decision, as in I probably wouldn't.  I think it's perfectly reasonable that he loses clinics or sponsorship due to it, because it does (to me) reflect poorly on his emotional control, people coaching skills, horse training ability (as in understanding equine psychology, not race horse training) and judgement.

The rider had every right to post the video, she paid for the clinic she attended.  If you choose to teach clinics these days you have to expect to be filmed and go up on SM.

I agree with someone earlier who said Mark Todd himself had handled things much better, in the 'aftermath', than a lot of the people defending him. I do agree that many people have the odd incident in their past they are less than proud of, and am glad he admitted this was one of those times for him.  I suspect that he may be one of those riders that's too good a rider, naturally, to really be a good coach.  Presumably if he was riding it the horse would have jumped in no problem, so he maybe didn't have the tools to resolve the issue and got frustrated.


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## cauda equina (22 February 2022)

The article doesn't say she lost her job; it says she walked out after receiving a written warning about her behaviour

This adds to my suspicion that releasing the footage of MT is an attempt to deflect attention from her own failings


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## wills_91 (22 February 2022)

cauda equina said:



			The article doesn't say she lost her job; it says she walked out after receiving a written warning about her behaviour

This adds to my suspicion that releasing the footage of MT is an attempt to deflect attention from her own failings
		
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The alleged incident with her was in 2019, so nearly 3 years ago.


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## HBB (23 February 2022)

cauda equina said:



			The article doesn't say she lost her job; it says she walked out after receiving a written warning about her behaviour

This adds to my suspicion that releasing the footage of MT is an attempt to deflect attention from her own failings
		
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I do think you’re partly correct, the short TikTok she initially released was for a laugh and when she got negative backlash she then released the full video and that’s what deflected the attention from her.

I said right from the beginning, it is only poor Harry the horse that deserves our sympathy’s.


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## Red-1 (25 February 2022)

Well, I needed a new girth. Found a Mark Todd one half price. Bargain!


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## MagicMelon (25 February 2022)

Cortez said:



			A stick used correctly, as a tool not a weapon, is a useful thing to refine the aids, just like the spur.
		
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I have to disagree. I dont think it would be seen as acceptable to use a whip on a dog for example, oh and use some pointy metal spurs to push into the dog to help "refine" its training?  Sorry but I find it insane what is still seen as acceptable for a horse but that would be massively frowned upon when used on any other animal? Im not disagreeing with a whip for using for other reasons (ie. not hitting the horse) but tapping gently or pointing at them for something, for example pointing a lunge whip at the horse asking them to move out but there's absolutely no malice in that. You surely have to admit that probably the vast majority of riders misuse whips and absolutely use them for punishment (ie. a weapon). You only have to pop down to your nearest event to see it for yourself.


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## Cortez (25 February 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			I have to disagree. I dont think it would be seen as acceptable to use a whip on a dog for example, oh and use some pointy metal spurs to push into the dog to help "refine" its training?  Sorry but I find it insane what is still seen as acceptable for a horse but that would be massively frowned upon when used on any other animal? Im not disagreeing with a whip for using for other reasons (ie. not hitting the horse) but tapping gently or pointing at them for something, for example pointing a lunge whip at the horse asking them to move out but there's absolutely no malice in that. You surely have to admit that probably the vast majority of riders misuse whips and absolutely use them for punishment (ie. a weapon). You only have to pop down to your nearest event to see it for yourself.
		
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A dog is not a horse, does not react to the same stimuli. and is not trained in the same way at all, nor to do the same things. Your analogy is completely spurious, just as it is to suggest that falcons, sheep, cattle, ferrets, or indeed people are all trained in the same ways. Just because people don't know how to use a tool does not mean it should be banned. Learn how to do things: education is the solution to most problems.


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