# Help Humphrey



## cindydog (24 May 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gK6o5ntuLJI
I Think this is the link.


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## tallyho! (24 May 2013)

They can't help animals that are really suffering but take in a horse that appears to be well cared for...


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## 3OldPonies (24 May 2013)

What are these people thinking?  Are there so few abused animals in need of help that they are resorting to stealing perfectly healthy, happy horses.  My heart goes out to Humphrey and his owner.


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## Angelbones (24 May 2013)

That's a beautiful video of a girl who apparently adores her horse and her horse appears to love her back and be in good health. What are we not seeing? Surely somebody has been in touch with a solicitor etc? I'd like to know more - can't find anything on google - does anyone have any further knowledge of this? If it is as cut and dried as in the video then I'm appalled.


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## forever young (24 May 2013)

I agree Angelbones what are we all missing as they clearly have a great time in that video enjoying life to the full. What a gorgeous horse.


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## Angelbones (24 May 2013)

Have now found this piece on google:

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-e...ws/horse-lover-fury-at-abuse-claims-1-2943375


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## tallyho! (24 May 2013)

Wtf!!?? Sorry but that is awful. Poor girl. Someone is guilty for this.


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## Jenni_ (24 May 2013)

Very local to me, and I have my own theories as to why this particular horse was targeted.

I really don't want to say anymore for fear of causing an uproar but this horse being taken is a complete disgrace. He is a bit on the lean side but we have had a horrific winter up here (still going!) but he is very well looked after and much loved.


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## feisty_filly (24 May 2013)

Fingers crossed Humphrey comes home.


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## tallyho! (24 May 2013)

Flippn eck if that's lean I'd hate that person to see our mares after the winter.


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## Fuzznugget (24 May 2013)

Does anyone know the registered name of this horse? If you do, please please pm me!!!


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## PeterNatt (24 May 2013)

I appreciate that there may be two sides to this but could someone please tell me what all this is about.   You can contact me in confidence at  E-mail: peter .natt@btinternet.com.


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## piebaldsparkle (24 May 2013)

PeterNatt said:



			I appreciate that there may be two sides to this but could someone please tell me what all this is about.   You can contact me in confidence at  E-mail: peter .natt@btinternet.com.
		
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Peter you can contact/message the person involved from their FB page - http://www.facebook.com/HelpHumphrey?fref=ts


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## piebaldsparkle (24 May 2013)

Horse does look lean, lacks top line and would look better with more cover, but I'm surprised that it has been removed - 


This was the ride it was removed after - 






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlGBJWJTOgI

Looks sound when loaded - 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZBEelBVoOY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfVrGH_72lU

I am normally the 1st to think there is no smoke without fire, but don't see why advice not given rather than removal.


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## piebaldsparkle (24 May 2013)

Press coverage - http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-e...-abuse-claims-1-2943375#.UZ9SnzWhDl0.facebook


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## LittleRooketRider (24 May 2013)

This is a disgrace....the RSPCA/SSPCA etc. have alot to answer for especially as they fail to actually help those animals that ACTUALLY need it!

Don't give up your fight and I truly hope you get him back soon, you clearly have a wonderful relationship with YOUR horse.

*hugs*


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## tallyho! (24 May 2013)

Just looks like any other tb to me.


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## Tinypony (24 May 2013)

That is just heartbreaking.  I'm just lost for words.  Talk about picking on an easy target.   And... a feckin' weaving grill.  Just... *!*!


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## kerrieberry2 (24 May 2013)

omg good that's actually made me cry!  so basically that could happen to any of us!  I don't know what i'd do if that happened to me!  b*st*rds


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## loisb501 (24 May 2013)

Saw this on Facebook, if you type in help Humphrey it should come up. Really feel for the girl, is there something we are missing??


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## Shantara (24 May 2013)

Unless there's something sinister hidden away somewhere (which does seem doubtful) then this makes me SICK!
How dare they? I'm utterly lost for words!! 

That poor girls reaction to her boy being taken away makes me cry. Her heart must have been absolutely shattered.


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## Jenni_ (24 May 2013)

If they think he's too skinny and more than a lean tb I'm scared to take jazz out in public incase they take her off me for being grossly overweight  

Just the type of horse someone would take a fancy too as well


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## Amymay (24 May 2013)

Tallyho, you're obviously used to seeing poor looking horses.


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## ridefast (24 May 2013)

Poor girl, that's awful


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## PeterNatt (24 May 2013)

I would like an explanation from the SRSPCA charity that seized this horse as there is something very wrong going on here.


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## piebaldsparkle (25 May 2013)

PeterNatt said:



			I would like an explanation from the SRSPCA charity that seized this horse as there is something very wrong going on here.
		
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Totally agree, they seem a law unto themselves.

Horse looks lean, but noway an animal that need to be removed as far as I can see.

Additionally they don't appear to have given the owner any paperwork.  That can't be right.


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## Girlracer (25 May 2013)

The horse looks quite poor in a few clips on that video, HOWEVER I don't think it's lean enough to warrant it being taken as it was. But are we missing something? Why did they feel the need to video it on a small circle at what looks like a meet of some kind?


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## piebaldsparkle (25 May 2013)

Girlracer said:



			The horse looks quite poor in a few clips on that video, HOWEVER I don't think it's lean enough to warrant it being taken as it was. But are we missing something? Why did they feel the need to video it on a small circle at what looks like a meet of some kind?
		
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I think they were just videoing him at the start of the Currie Riding of the Marches.  Doubt they thought they would need it as evidence!  Also suspect he was only walking in a circle as, as an ex racehorse, is unlikely to stand still in that kind of atmosphere.


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## Moomin1 (25 May 2013)

SSPCA are a COMPLETELY separate charity to the RSPCA.  They have no links, rules, interaction or policies in collaboration with each other.


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## piebaldsparkle (25 May 2013)

PeterNatt said:



			I would like an explanation from the SRSPCA charity that seized this horse as there is something very wrong going on here.
		
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OMG the more I read on the FB Page the more worrying this gets! - http://www.facebook.com/HelpHumphrey?fref=ts




			Stacey Innes is he being kept at Balerno or at the officers mothers yard?
Thursday at 7:33am via mobile · Like · 6
Help Humphrey Currently Balerno , we have stressed we don't want him taken to the officers mothers yard after the horses died when her stable roof collapsed .
Thursday at 7:36am via mobile · Like
Help Humphrey Up at Balerno..I am sure thats what you call conflict of interest and should be looked into both c.i.d
		
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			Help Humphrey
Wednesday
The SSPCA have no reason for Humphrey to still be in there care! The owner is not being charged! An independent vet has given him a clean bill of health!
		
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			Help Humphrey They abused our rights, we didn't know that night they couldn't take without a warrant! We asked for names they refused! We had no choice police were there! x
		
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## HelpHumphrey (25 May 2013)

Hi 

Just to clear up the video question , there wasn't a lot of space at Currie green it is quite small and there were a lot of horses there,so had to walk around in a tight circle. It was a video because that's what kids do these days they don't take pictures , they take videos that way they can freeze frame any bit they like to get the best picture. The other question is are we missing something? , we are as baffled as everyone else , there is to be a second interview with SSPCA next week , we have no idea on what grounds . Vets reports are all fine, he spent 2 days at the Dick vets and had another independant Vet out 5 days after seizure. I can understand people questioning what's going on here because we're asking the very same question. Thankyou for the support , I hope you understand we haven't got the resources to reply to everybody's questions but it really is the story of the truth. Who in their right mind would put out anything but the truth when dealing with a huge ,very wealthy organisation.


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## piebaldsparkle (25 May 2013)

Really hope Humphrey is returned soon and those responsible are made accountable for their actions. xxx


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## HelpHumphrey (25 May 2013)

We still do not have a single piece of documentation . The only thing we were given was a SSPCA calling card with the officers name and a reference number . There was no date or time , or reason for seizure . I understand its hard for people to comprehend its even harder for us . The girl is in the middle of her GCSE equivalents . She had been given predicted As in her sciences , she wanted to be an Equine Vet , but all is not lost, even though she's having great difficulty sleeping , what will be will be . Its Physics and Chemistry next week , keep your fingers crossed who knows , maybe they'll stop all this insane nonsense and give him back before Monday. We're too late for Biology and Maths but she's a bright cookie


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## piebaldsparkle (25 May 2013)

***Fingers crossed***  Hang in there. xxx


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## Shadow the Reindeer (25 May 2013)

Cannot believe someone can seize an animal without correct documentation.. something really stinks here, and that's the SSPCA seriously trying to cover their backs with ****!


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## Zero00000 (25 May 2013)

This is appalling it really is! I will share as much as I can, and I truly hope Humphrey is returned home where he belongs,
As an owner of a TB and we are in Kent, so have had it no where near as bad as you all have, I empathise, Wishing you all the best, I hope the girl can sit her GCSEs and remember that Humphrey WILL come home, it is just going through the motions to get him there now. Best wishes,


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## tallyho! (25 May 2013)

amymay said:



			Tallyho, you're obviously used to seeing poor looking horses.
		
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no I'm not amymay, I'm used to seeing FIT ones 

Sorry but I don't see a poor horse.

Maybe you are used to seeing fat ones lol


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## weesophz (25 May 2013)

i feel awful for humphrey. woman at my yard owned him  years ago, she put him out on loan as she had a baby, and when she got him back he was skin and bone. sspca did nothing about the people that left him up to his knees in mud in a bald paddock, but seem to have taken him from a loving home. the woman i know that owned his is so upset. 

poor guy has been through the wars


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## Ahrena (25 May 2013)

So charities will leave far poorer horses if thy have acess to food and water and remove this one??

It's ridiculous and video had me in tears.


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## tallyho! (25 May 2013)

Ahrena said:



			So charities will leave far poorer horses if thy have acess to food and water and remove this one??

It's ridiculous and video had me in tears.
		
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Reminds me of when I was 8 and my dad bought me a kitten. Because we accidentally missed a neutering appointment, the RSPCA came and took him from me  it was crazy. I cried for days. 

Oh dear, I'm crying again.


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## vickyb (25 May 2013)

I find this almost unbelievable! OP, has the owner been to see a solicitor? I would be firing off legal letters right left and centre. Their (SSPCA) acions cannot be correct. Bully boy tactics.


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## Goldenstar (25 May 2013)

In England you  need a vet to say the horse has to be removed and a police officer to ok it , I can't think Scotish law would allow one person to to remove another's property willy nilly this horses owner needs a lawyer with experiance of this type of work quickly.


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## MillyMoomie (25 May 2013)

One word.

Lies.


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## DuckToller (25 May 2013)

He is an older, ex-racehorse, I would expect him to be lean. 

If they are going to seize every lean tb they had better start at the racecourses and seize all the eventers while they are at it.


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## HelpHumphrey (25 May 2013)

There was a vet present with them on the night , her opinion seemed to differ with the vets reports done after seizure.We cannot be sure of what she is going to put in her report of the night of seizure as that report was not available at the first interview which was 17 days after seizure ( she appears to be absent from work and had not submitted it to them , at least that is what they told our solicitor ) The reports from the Dick vets and another independant vet  where available, and certainly not grounds for seizure. The inspector did call the police because a member of the public starting filming them ,convinced that this just could not be allowed surely? She was told to' stop filming or we are calling the police' , she continued  to film in the horses best interest. The inspector told the police it was such a severe case he needed immediate removal .The police said 'they're the experts' .


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## MillyMoomie (25 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey alot of this doesn't make sense? Are you the owner? 
Why are you stating the SPCA needed a warrant? SPCA inspectors are enabled under the Scottish animal welfare act to exercise powers of entry, search and seizure. 
As there is no real private prosecutions in Scotland the SPCA lays reports for the crown fiscal office to consider for prosecutions, so why don't you just wait and defend yourself?


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## Goldenstar (25 May 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			HelpHumphrey alot of this doesn't make sense? Are you the owner? 
Why are you stating the SPCA needed a warrant? SPCA inspectors are enabled under the Scottish animal welfare act to exercise powers of entry, search and seizure. 
As there is no real private prosecutions in Scotland the SPCA lays reports for the crown fiscal office to consider for prosecutions, so why don't you just wait and defend yourself?
		
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Because they have her horse and it could take months.


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## HelpHumphrey (25 May 2013)

Not only the fact we were told it could be dragged out for years , we're very worried about how distressed he is , wouldn't you be ?
We want him home safe and happy


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## MillyMoomie (25 May 2013)

So you are the owner? And you have already been interviewed? It can't take years. There is a certain amount of a time limit. 
Distressed? Of course I would be worried but what evidence have you got? I have not read anything that seems believable yet. 

Distressed but from reading your posts and FB there seems to be about 4 vets involved? 

I'm sorry but this just does not add up. 

What were you interviewed about? Maybe that will shed some light?


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## MillyMoomie (25 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey was another horse also removed?


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## charlie76 (25 May 2013)

I will prob get shot down but I don't care, I have just looked at the loading videos of this horse, that is not a lean horse,that is a bloody thin horse, not only that, he was being ridden pretty hard in that condition. Maybe take a look at that vid and see what you think.


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## charlie76 (25 May 2013)

To add, the sad video of her loving her horse is all well and good but it is well edited and most of it is from the summer, to make a true judgement you would need to see still photos of the horse on the day he was taken away. Freeze some of the vids of him loading, then see if you think he looks like a healthy, well covered horse... He doesn't , he looks poor, his coat is dull and his neck is non existent.


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## Patterdale (25 May 2013)

Surely there has to be more to this.....?


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## charlie76 (25 May 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Surely there has to be more to this.....?
		
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Look at the loading vids, he looks awful. Poor boy.


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## MillyMoomie (25 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey is this a live investigation? If so then it is in your interest to remove this thread.


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## Girlracer (25 May 2013)

Charlie76, I must say I too thought the same. Even in the first edited video there are a few occasions where he looks very poor. That's does not look like a fit thoroughbred in good condition.


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## Cuffey (25 May 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			HelpHumphrey is this a live investigation? If so then it is in your interest to remove this thread.
		
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Yes it is ongoing and only Admin can remove

Check OPs video link at 3mins 14secs being ridden the day of removal--to me that horse is not suffering, lean yes, but fit and happy looking.

  If you have followed the story, the horse was upset by another lorry and took 40 mins to load to come home so yes he looks run-up, but lame and suffering no.

Rideouts are very exciting, horses have a ball out with their friends for at least a couple of hours some are much longer, with a sharp gallop now and again. 
TBs tend to think they are back racing again
 When they come home, they take time to unwind and rehydrate, Humphrey did not get that chance and had to go through loading all over again.


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## Copperpot (25 May 2013)

Sorry Tallyho I disagree. That is not to me a fit looking horse. He is poor lean.


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## MillyMoomie (25 May 2013)

Cuffey. I know a fair amount about TBs, I also have high level eventers, these are fit horses. In the videos provided that is not a fit horse, it is a poor horse. One that does not look in good enough body condition to be doing any fast work at all let alone for 'at least a couple of hours'. If you knew your elderly horse was in poor body condition and highly likely to 'run up'... Why would you purposefully aim to work it?

I have been following the 'story', I have also looked at the FB site. Quite simply the 'story' changes, I have not see any suffient answers or evidence to back up what happened. One minute the horse was 'stolen', the next the police were in attendance. The SPCA have powers anyway. They say they have no idea why the horse was taken, then it was taken because of loading, then condition, then we are back to ' no idea why we are being interviewed'. BUT an interview has already taken place.... It just does not work like that I'm afraid.

What about the other horse? What are we not being told.


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## firm (25 May 2013)

Is his coat dull? In the walking round video his neck looks shiny.  He looks clipped out and will have coat growing back in so it won't look great. This has been Scotand's coldest spring for 30 years.  In the loading video, he has just done a rideout, travelled home and then been reloaded again ( which does not sound a good idea I agree Cuffney!) He may well have dried sweat in his coat. 
I don't know if things are right or wrong here but I don't think commenting his coat is dull is fair.


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## charlie76 (25 May 2013)

Sorry but on the loading vids yes his coat is dull and his condition is awful.


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## firm (25 May 2013)

Do you not agree dried sweat and a growing out clip particularly on a chestnut that colour could make a coat appear dull in a grainy video?


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## MillyMoomie (25 May 2013)

Having just watched the video again, two further points that appear to change regularly. 
1. In the video it states 'the inspectors wouldn't give their name, and they don't know who they are'. Yet on FB there is a link to something else with a named Inspector.HelpHumphrey then comments 'it's the same inspector'. 
2. They show Humphrey 'in distress at the SPCA yard with anti weave door. But again on FB they say they cannot visit him. So who took the video? Maybe a innocent mix up. Maybe not.


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## touchstone (25 May 2013)

Looking at the vids I wouldn't have thought his condition warranted removal, goodness knows I've seen far worse that have been left.

But, we do not know the full story behind this, the horse seems to be in pretty fast work for something lacking in condition and perhaps the owner has already been given advice in the past and is not taking it.   I'd also be interested to know if the horse was medicated and why the other horse was removed.

From first glance it would seem a very unfair removal, but without nowing all the facts it is difficult to comment. 

And is that top door really padlocked shut at the sspca?  Seems very unsafe if that is the case.


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## JenTaz (25 May 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			Having just watched the video again, two further points that appear to change regularly. 
1. In the video it states 'the inspectors wouldn't give their name, and they don't know who they are'. Yet on FB there is a link to something else with a named Inspector.HelpHumphrey then comments 'it's the same inspector'. 
2. They show Humphrey 'in distress at the SPCA yard with anti weave door. But again on FB they say they cannot visit him. So who took the video? Maybe a innocent mix up. Maybe not.
		
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I don't usually contribute to posts like these however this is very local to where I live at home, RE the female inspector not giving her name, its very easy to identify her considering she is linked with one of the local riding schools in the area, which is why they knew "it's the same inspector" 

about visiting the horse, I can imagine they would have been allowed to visit him once to check he had settled and then not allowed to check until the case had finished, or where he is kept is rather open and easy to get access to and is just off the main road so they could have easily walked up to check on him and left again un noticed by staff.

Also I would say the horse is lean, but certainly not a cruelty case, there are much leaner horses that go round the common rides than him, some buted up by riding schools so that they can still bring money in over the summer, and some of the conditions these horses live in aren't great, ragwort in fields, ill fitting tack - so much that they come away with great big saddle sores after one ride and still go on the next, or given a few rides off and then back out they go, busy riding schools can be doing 2/3 rides a week with their most popular horses. Yet you do not see the SPCA doing anything about these horses.


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## charlie76 (25 May 2013)

For the goodness knows how many times,  I'm not talking about the long video,  or the video on the ride,  look at the two loading videos.  He isn't lean,  he is poor


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## OAP65 (25 May 2013)

According to the Help Humphrey Facebook page there were 2 other horses seized as well, as that poster asked why campaign for the return of one horse and not the others? Something not right here.


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## Horse* (25 May 2013)

OAP65 said:



			According to the Help Humphrey Facebook page there were 2 other horses seized as well, as that poster asked why campaign for the return of one horse and not the others? Something not right here.
		
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The facebook page says
' Hi there, yes two thoroughbreds were taken. It's two separate owners. The other owner will be going public as well.'
'Hi Kirsty ,the other horse does not belong to us. Going public is a last resort afterall other avenues have been exhausted , trying to help Humphrey started the minute he left we were fortunate his relationship was well documented , as was his well being prior to ride and currently . You're right though this practice of immediate seizure should be stopped for everyone's sake .I'm sorry but we're inundated with questions , we really have to concentrate on getting him back, hope you understand '

I would like to here the SPCA's side of the story


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## charlie76 (25 May 2013)

I think many people have watched the well edited emotional video and are not seeing the bigger picture


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## hippo-horse (25 May 2013)

It all seems very suspicious. I have seen a horse far poorer than Humphrey be left in the care of a useless owner, because the S.S.P.C.A. inspector was happy that care was being given and that the horse was improving. It wasnt, I was convinced that I would come up one day and find him dead. Fortuneately that horse was sighned over to people who knew what they were doing and after a lot of work and time he is fine now. I just cant understand how the horse I know could be left and this one be sized.


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## HBB (25 May 2013)

charlie76 said:



			I think many people have watched the well edited emotional video and are not seeing the bigger picture
		
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^^^This^^^ 
I completely agree with you Charlie76, there must be more to this story than they are letting on. The Inspectors would have introduced themselves to the owner/rider and explained fully why they are there. As it sounds very much like a "case" the owner/rider would have been cautioned and questioned. I don't believe for one minute that they have no idea why or what is happening.

All I see is a cleverly edited montage of video clips, I have no idea when they were taken, some of them could be years old.


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## galaxy (25 May 2013)

I have watched all the videos. He does look on the poorer side of lean in the loading videos and when being walked around at the meet. However he is an older tb and I think it is EXTREME that he was seized without anything else going on. I think talking to the owner about horse management and the fact a horse that has clearly not wintered well should not be going in a sponsored ride and should only be in lighter work until the weight is back on.


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## OAP65 (25 May 2013)

Also from what I have learned he is about 20 and had been hacked from his yard which is about 8 miles on roads to  where Common Ride was being held. Then Ride is about 5 hours long over some tough hilly terrain with a stop for lunch.


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## ozpoz (25 May 2013)

He may look lean but he does look happy. 
I'm staggered that someone actually managed to get the SSPCA to do anything. What a pity they aren't so quick to remove horses in really bad condition. 
Possibly because they know very little about equines.
I hope this is sorted out soon.


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## Girlracer (25 May 2013)

I am astounded how many of you can comment as you are without knowing the full story.


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## HelpHumphrey (25 May 2013)

We agree that this situation needs a full and thorough investigation .The sooner the better.We perhaps all should be mindful of judgment prior to investigation. We have nothing to hide everything done has been for the love of a kind and gentle soul.

We would like to add that the initial response on here was extremely positive to Humphrey's plight but now appears to have been hijacked  by a few, you are ofcourse entitled to your opinion and if your opinion is that he needed to be immediately seized so be it . 

Most members of society do not share your view.


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## Girlracer (25 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey, I can sympathise that it's an extremely tough time for you, and I don't necessarily agree it was in the best interest of the horse for him to be taken as he was. Particularly after a what was probably a pretty tough day for him! 

I don't however agree that this horse is one in an acceptable condition. The breed and age of the horse and also the tough winter, for me, are not a sufficient excuse. It would be different of course if you were taking steps to increase his condition, and its my opinion that taking a poor, aged horse on a ride such as this is not in the best interest of the animal. 

HOWEVER as I said I don't necessarily agree how the horse was taken, and I would agree with other posters that its condition would probably at this stage warrant some guidance being given and it being kept an eye on. However there is nothing to say that this isn't the case, it wouldn't be the first time someone has portrayed themselves far differently than the reality. 

I think this is a case that needs to be sorted between yourselves and the SPCA/your solicitors etc I for one am not advocating an animal be put back in the care of someone when I don't know for sure that its the best thing for the animal, and I'm surprised by how many can make that choice. 

I will admit I found the first edited video extremely emotive and at first was sucked in by it, and it is a sad situation for everyone involved, mostly I feel for Humphrey.


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## Clippy (25 May 2013)

Actually it stinks.

The Officer in the video didn't seem very keen on being video'd at all. When there have been rescues of horses in real need (like Amersham for instance) it was fine for the RSPCA to film that and show it widely. What do they have to hide?

Personally, if the owner was genuinely and severely at fault, I don't think they'd launch a campaign like this. Surely they'd be hiding in the shadows, not wanting anyone to know.

I would expect an older TB to be on the lean side in the winter. He certainly didn't look lame and what about the heart murmour - does this mean he can't be worked?

I'm not saying Humphrey was in great condition or that there was no reason for the SSPCA to be involved in some way, but I do think that to take someones horses away without first giving the owner some help or advice if needed is blatently wrong


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## TPO (25 May 2013)

The expertise of SSPCA is evident as they load him into the wrong side of the trailer...

Don't know the full story so can't comment but agree that SSPCA ignore far worse goings on and much poorer animals in their very own back garden.

Hopefully this will now get resolved quickly and the correct action for the horse taken.


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## MillyMoomie (25 May 2013)

TPO wrong side of the trailer? You do realise there was another horse on the the trailer too don't you?!


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## piebaldsparkle (25 May 2013)

OAP65 said:



			Also from what I have learned he is about 20 and had been hacked from his yard which is about 8 miles on roads to  where Common Ride was being held. Then Ride is about 5 hours long over some tough hilly terrain with a stop for lunch.
		
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Doubt it as horse was trailered home (clearly states took 40mins to load as was spooked when loading by another lorry).


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## piebaldsparkle (25 May 2013)

galaxy said:



			I have watched all the videos. He does look on the poorer side of lean in the loading videos and when being walked around at the meet. However he is an older tb and I think it is EXTREME that he was seized without anything else going on. I think talking to the owner about horse management and the fact a horse that has clearly not wintered well should not be going in a sponsored ride and should only be in lighter work until the weight is back on.
		
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^^^Agree with this


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## OAP65 (25 May 2013)

Piebaldsparkle, no doubt about it he was hacked about 8 miles on roads before he even did the Common Ride.


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## piebaldsparkle (25 May 2013)

Clippy said:



			Actually it stinks.

The Officer in the video didn't seem very keen on being video'd at all.
		
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Officer seemed totally unprofessional (laughing/smirking at 3.06).

Mind The Officer has family connections to a large riding school that I believe houses some seized horses (no conflict of interests there then) and are happy to send horse on common rides tacked up like this!


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## piebaldsparkle (25 May 2013)

OAP65 said:



			Also from what I have learned he is about 20 and had been hacked from his yard which is about 8 miles on roads to  where Common Ride was being held. Then Ride is about 5 hours long over some tough hilly terrain with a stop for lunch.
		
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OAP65 said:



			Piebaldsparkle, no doubt about it he was hacked about 8 miles on roads before he even did the Common Ride.
		
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So you are suggesting he was ridden for 7hrs that day?

8miles road work (approx 2hrs) + 5hrs Common ride?

Sorry I don't believe you.  Do you even get 7hrs day light in Scotland!


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## OAP65 (25 May 2013)

Haha but yes.


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## MrsElle (25 May 2013)

piebaldsparkle said:



			Officer seemed totally unprofessional (laughing/smirking at 3.06).

Mind The Officer has family connections to a large riding school that I believe houses some seized horses (no conflict of interests there then) and are happy to send horse on common rides tacked up like this!






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Even my totally un-horsey OH has just looked at the photo and said 'It's thingy doesn't look right'.  If my OH can tell from a glance, I do worry about those people who are meant to know what they are doing.


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## OAP65 (25 May 2013)

Oh dear MrsElle, that makes me cringe! No need for sloppy tacking up.


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## tallyho! (25 May 2013)

Copperpot said:



			Sorry Tallyho I disagree. That is not to me a fit looking horse. He is poor lean.
		
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Well I only saw one video. If you have seen more then I can't control that. From "what I saw" I did not see a problem.

Hope that's ok with you


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## tabithakat64 (25 May 2013)

Terrible, poor girl, the RSPCA in whatever guise are clueless and abuse the kindness of people who donate to them by needlessly targeting people who have done nothing wrong rather than helping animals in need.


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## Copperpot (25 May 2013)

I saw another video yes. Hope it's ok with you that I have my own opinion  Like you had a different one from Amymay


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## tallyho! (25 May 2013)

Copperpot said:



			I saw another video yes. Hope it's ok with you that I have my own opinion  Like you had a different one from Amymay 

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Ok brilliant! Nice that we all have our opinions established


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (26 May 2013)

I have no idea what's going on here.

But one thing keeps on being repeated that makes me nervous,
"there must be more to this".

Sound just like the time those children were seized by social services from their parents because of the allegations of satanic abuse.
All the time you heard,
"there must be more to this, the authorities can be trusted".

I think it's time people realised that *all* the authorities work for themselves and the people they employ. Not those they help.

The horse to me looks thin. But this thread has appeared the day after a poster here was desperate to get some help for a horse and she had been trying for *two years* to get the authorities to do something.


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## Moomin1 (26 May 2013)

tabithakat64 said:



			Terrible, poor girl, the RSPCA in whatever guise are clueless and abuse the kindness of people who donate to them by needlessly targeting people who have done nothing wrong rather than helping animals in need.
		
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Shall I repeat again?  The SSPCA are NOTHING to do with the RSPCA. It's the equivalent of trying to say the NSPCC are the same as Red Cross.

Different charities.  Neither have anything to do with each other.


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## PeterNatt (26 May 2013)

I have stated before that there are two sides to every story.
But I am very concerned about the fact that it would appear that any of us could be the victim of the action of a welfare charity which has the power to remove a horse from our ownership and care without any prior warning at all especially in the circumstances in which this was done when a child was riding it.
The charity has to date made no public comment at all to explain the reasons for its action.
I would ask the charity concerned to make a public statement on the action they have taken without any further delay or otherwise return the horse to it's owner.

If this horse was mine then my legal team would have been instructed to take action through the courts for the immediate return of the horse and also instructed to make a claim for damages and distress caused against the welfare organisation concerned.
I would be asking the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons to bring the vet(s) concerned before their disciplinary committee.
I would be asking the charities commission to investigate the action taken by the charity concerned.

There may be a very good reason why a welfare charity has taken this action but they must be seen to be accountable.


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## Tinypony (26 May 2013)

Well said Peter.  I'm quite amazed that they could seize a horse and keep it in these circumstances.  I know it's obviously different in Scotland, but I've struggled to get help for horses in much worse condition than this.  In England I think the most that would happen would be for the owner to be given a bit of a warning chat, some advice, and follow up visiting.


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## OAP65 (26 May 2013)

3 horses including Humphrey.


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## asbo (26 May 2013)

SSPCA really do seem to pick and choose what horses they will or will not help, there were countless reports made about underweight horses at our yard by people walking by/other horse owners at local yards but nothing done,owner of the underweight horses worked at the SSPCA officers mothers riding school, which people have been reporting for years.


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## misterjinglejay (26 May 2013)

PeterNatt said:



			I have stated before that there are two sides to every story.
But I am very concerned about the fact that it would appear that any of us could be the victim of the action of a welfare charity which has the power to remove a horse from our ownership and care without any prior warning at all especially in the circumstances in which this was done when a child was riding it.
The charity has to date made no public comment at all to explain the reasons for its action.
I would ask the charity concerned to make a public statement on the action they have taken without any further delay or otherwise return the horse to it's owner.

If this horse was mine then my legal team would have been instructed to take action through the courts for the immediate return of the horse and also instructed to make a claim for damages and distress caused against the welfare organisation concerned.
I would be asking the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons to bring the vet(s) concerned before their disciplinary committee.
I would be asking the charities commission to investigate the action taken by the charity concerned.

There may be a very good reason why a welfare charity has taken this action but they must be seen to be accountable.
		
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^^ This!


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## tabithakat64 (26 May 2013)

Completely agree Peter.


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## mcnaughty (26 May 2013)

OAP65 said:



			3 horses including Humphrey.
		
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Ah!  Now we are starting to get to the bottom of this!  Sounds to me like Humphrey may have been the best of the bunch  - what other animals were taken and what was their condition.

I do not believe that the RSPCA or SPCA would take any animal without first giving just cause and several warnings.  

OP, please tell us the full details of the removal - how many horses/ponies were removed and what was their condition?  Do you have video of these animals too?


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## HelpHumphrey (26 May 2013)

OAP65 said:



			3 horses including Humphrey.
		
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OAP65 Here are the facts - two horses in total were taken from the same yard, for further clarification these two horses (which includes Humphrey) are owned by two different people. 

I don't know where you got your information from but it is incorrect, help Humphrey are keen to get all facts out into the open to help ensure his swift return. Presumably you are an animal lover as you are on this site - Humphrey is currently in great distress.


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## MillyMoomie (26 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey you have yet to answer my questions?


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## Goldenstar (26 May 2013)

The are two things that perplex me most are.
When I was involved ( in England admittedly ) I have never know a horse be taken from a private individual without considerable effort being made to sort things on the ground first.

I also don't understand why the horse is being described as being in great distress now as in my experiance the yards horses where removed to where very good places for a horse to be , I can understand the owners distress but not why the horses should be distressed .


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## YorksG (26 May 2013)

I would be concerned that the horse has been removed to any property owned by a close family member of the inspector, as that appears to be a clear conflict of interest. I would also need assurance that if the horse is exercised, it is not as part of any activity run by the riding school, as I would imagine that this would be illegal use of the horse. If the statement about the attending vet is correct and no report is provided by her, after such a length of time, then surely a second report should have been obtained as soon as possible. I do not know much about scottish law, but find it difficult to believe that no doccumentation is required when removing property of any discpription.


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## Jenni_ (26 May 2013)

SSPCA officer was also the first ever 'Edinburgh Lass' so basically led this Edinburgh ride out like the currie one. Very influential 'role' for a year.

Being very local and knowing a lot more than most folk on this thread (save JenTaz) I have my opinion and it is that although Humphrey was on the extreme side of lean(we only got out of bloody winter 2 weeks ago- was snowing up till about 3 weeks ago!!!) the SSPCA were not justified in taking him, and as I've said I have my own theories.


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## OAP65 (26 May 2013)

OK HH, I stand corrected. Only 2 horses seized from the same yard. Please do not ask me to believe that the SSPCA would attend a yard to seize two horses without correct paperwork and without having previously given advice on welfare. It just isnt done unless the animals were in immediate danger and unless to leave them there would cause more suffering. The SSPCA arent stupid, ok you do hear of the odd case of wrong tactics, but as I said they really dont want to seize animals for the fun of it. I can understand the girls distress and I really feel for her, but really that horse just wasnt up to the work it was asked to do. The SSPCA are in a difficult position, they are damned if they do and they are damned if they dont.


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## PeterNatt (26 May 2013)

The fact that the SSPCA have made no comment concerns me.


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## PeterNatt (26 May 2013)

Jenni.  Can you please advise me of your theory in the strictest confidence.
E:   peter.natt@btinternet.com


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## MillyMoomie (26 May 2013)

PeterNatt the SPCA have not made a comment because this is a live investigation. As per proceedure in any live investigation. Obviously.


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## Countrychic (26 May 2013)

What I don't understand is why you took the horse on the ride? We bought a very lean horse and he was in light walk work until he was an acceptable weight. It doesn't matter if it is age, breed or season that caused it what matters is you took him on a very long ride in poor condition


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## Goldenstar (26 May 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			PeterNatt the SPCA have not made a comment because this is a live investigation. As per proceedure in any live investigation. Obviously.
		
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Of course they can comment they just have to measured in what they say.
The police comment on "live cases " all the time.
They choose not to comment that's not the same thing.


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## Natch (26 May 2013)

Milliemoomie public staements were made about both Amersham and the recent rescue from Caephilly shortly after the removal of equines but while there were  live investigations going on.


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## HBB (26 May 2013)

PeterNatt said:



			The fact that the SSPCA have made no comment concerns me.
		
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From The Scotsman:



			The Scottish SPCA confirmed the horse had been removed due to welfare concerns.

Scottish SPCA chief superintendent Mike Flynn said: This horse is under veterinary care and our inquiries are on-going. The owner is aware of the situation and the welfare issues.
		
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## MillyMoomie (26 May 2013)

Comment as in the type PeterNatt is suggesting.... A explanation of why the horses were removed etc. which obviously they cannot go into details of just yet.


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## MillyMoomie (26 May 2013)

Natch Amersham and Caerphilly are the RSPCA. Nothing to do with the SPCA.


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## Tinypony (26 May 2013)

I don't know if it matters, but a couple of minutes on the Net and I've worked out the name of the SPCA officer.


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## ester (26 May 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			Natch Amersham and Caerphilly are the RSPCA. Nothing to do with the SPCA.
		
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yes but still and organisation able to comment on a 'live' investigation... so I don't think that reasoning works.


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## asbo (26 May 2013)

Jenni_ said:



			SSPCA officer was also the first ever 'Edinburgh Lass' so basically led this Edinburgh ride out like the currie one. Very influential 'role' for a year.

Being very local and knowing a lot more than most folk on this thread (save JenTaz) I have my opinion and it is that although Humphrey was on the extreme side of lean(we only got out of bloody winter 2 weeks ago- was snowing up till about 3 weeks ago!!!) the SSPCA were not justified in taking him, and as I've said I have my own theories.
		
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I can do you one better lol, been in this area 37 years with horses, I know the yards/people pretty well now and its never as it seems...........


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## asbo (26 May 2013)

Tinypony said:



			I don't know if it matters, but a couple of minutes on the Net and I've worked out the name of the SPCA officer.
		
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Have you also found out about the other horse taken last year which this inspector was involved in?


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## MillyMoomie (26 May 2013)

It does when the examples used are from a different organisation!!

Plus like I have explained, a comment that PeterNatt was demanding.... An explanation of the whole thing. The SPCA have just confirmed horses were removed because of welfare concerns and that it is investigating. AS PER NORMAL!


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## piebaldsparkle (26 May 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			AS PER NORMAL!
		
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Given recent events (not including Humphrey), it seems it is getting increasing 'normal' for SPCA to remove without normal procedures being followed.

Glad I'm not in Scotland as would be VERY concerned and hope the RSPCA don't get any ideas.  Though maybe one rogue inspector as she seems to be the common denominator.


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## MillyMoomie (26 May 2013)

Piebaldsparkle and interested to know why normal procedures were not followed? So far all I have read either on this forum or the FB site seems to be excuses with no believable evidence. 

The RSPCA can't get 'any ideas' as the SPCA have powers under the Scottish animal health and welfare act. The Animal welfare act that is used in England and Wales ( with seperate welsh legislation) gives no such powers.


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## HBB (26 May 2013)

How do we know "normal Procedure" wasn't adhered to?
We have only heard one side of the story, as the rider is avoiding answering certain questions.

This is what I make of it, The SSPCA were called to an incident, as is quoted in The Scotsman newspaper:



			Allana Evans, 15, was returning from the Currie Riding of the Marches earlier this month when Scottish SPCA officers demanded to examine Humphrey, a retired racehorse, *on the grounds of a report she had been witnessed &#8220;abusing&#8221; the anima*l.
		
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The SSPCA arrived after it took the girl 40 mins to load the horse, she refused to remove the horse from the transport, so it could be examined, so the Inspector followed her back to where the horse is normally kept. From what I can see from the video a vet and Police were also in attendance.

Humphrey is now under the care of the Scottish SPCA at their Welfare Centre at Balerno, Edinburgh.

I imagine whatever happen must have taken place after the ride and at time of the loading?


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## piebaldsparkle (26 May 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			Piebaldsparkle and interested to know why normal procedures were not followed? So far all I have read either on this forum or the FB site seems to be excuses with no believable evidence. 

The RSPCA can't get 'any ideas' as the SPCA have powers under the Scottish animal health and welfare act. The Animal welfare act that is used in England and Wales ( with seperate welsh legislation) gives no such powers.
		
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I just never want them (RSPCA) to push for those powers.  As seems to allow them (SPCA) to run rough shod over all.  

What happened advising and monitoring?  Too much time and effort?  Or is it just more profitable to snatch and run?  

Bet the holding yards are earning a pretty penny from it too.  Good job the have no connection with any SPCA inspectors............Oh but wait!............

The unprofessionalism of the inspector in Humphrey's case is  clear for all to see (laughing/smirking @ 3.06 of the vid).


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## Kallibear (26 May 2013)

I wondered when this would make it on here.

I'd be far more interested to know what happened to the utterly emaciated bay mare (the kind of body score you'd normally associate with Prince Fluffy Kareem  pictures) with the open sores  (unsuprisingly not so far mentioned on here) who was galloped over the hills for 5hrs +. I'm not sure if it's the same owner but came from the same yard (and was indeed hacked 2hrs home after a 5hrs common ride) but would certainly explain why they were both taken. The very novice girl riding it didn't own it and said the owner had told her the ride would do the mare good to 'help build some muscle '. She thankfully is the 'other horse' the SSPCA took.

There is indeed more to this than so far mentioned.


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## HBB (26 May 2013)

piebaldsparkle said:



			Bet the holding yards are earning a pretty penny from it too.  Good job the have no connection with any SPCA inspectors............Oh but wait!............
		
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 What holding yards?? The horse is being kept at the SSPCA's welfare centre at Balerno, Edinburgh.


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## piebaldsparkle (26 May 2013)

blackbess said:



 What holding yards?? The horse is being kept at the SSPCA's welfare centre at Balerno, Edinburgh.
		
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Oh good so they aren't using the well know riding school this time?


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## MillyMoomie (26 May 2013)

Piebaldsparkle profitable to 'snatch and run'..... How?!

Holding yard? What?!


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## HBB (26 May 2013)

piebaldsparkle said:



			Oh good so they aren't using the well know riding school this time?
		
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No, he is at Balerno, which is also open to the public, the stables and paddocks are in full view.


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## LollyDolly (26 May 2013)

According to FB Humphrey has now been moved from Balerno...


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## Tinypony (26 May 2013)

Scrap that post...


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## Tinypony (26 May 2013)

asbo said:



			Have you also found out about the other horse taken last year which this inspector was involved in?
		
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Yes.


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## Kallibear (26 May 2013)

Probably because Balerno is full to bursting already and only has a handful of stable. 

I saw this horse on the ride. I was releived the bay mare was taken and a little surprised but not shocked the chestnut was taken too, having seen the state he got himself wound up into.


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## HBB (26 May 2013)

Probably for security reasons too, Kallibear, it will avoid any "rescue" missions.


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## undergroundoli (26 May 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			Piebaldsparkle and interested to know why normal procedures were not followed? So far all I have read either on this forum or the FB site seems to be excuses with no believable evidence.
		
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No papers handed over other than a visiting card cannot be normal.


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## Natch (26 May 2013)

Of course they were examples of other organisations, it was relevant. You said they couldn't comment because it was a live investigation.  If my memory serves me correctly RSPCA, The Horse Trust, World Horse Welfare, Redwings and, I think BHS have all commented on 'live investigations' before court dates. E.g. the Caephilly ponies were "severely emaciated". Photos and video footage of Amersham was broadcast across sky news;  Mr Grey was still successfully prosecuted. 

If SSPCA gave the owner a statement about why the horse was being removed, why can't that document be made public? 

Is there an  omnisbudsan(sp?) who can handle complaints against charities? If procedures haven't been followed the board of trustees may well be interested.


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## ester (26 May 2013)

kallibear was the yard they came from a private yard (ie they are the only 2 horses?)? or livery?

ditto natch- a different organisation doesn't make the legal situation about commenting on a live situ any different...


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## Kallibear (26 May 2013)

It's a small livery, about 10 horses, mostly owned by just a few people. I know who owns the chestnut. I'm not sure if it's the same owner as the poor bay. The coloured cob that the bay rode home with is a different owner but also should never ever have been asked to do that ride (5hrs at fast hunting pace) as it was so unfit.


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## Kallibear (26 May 2013)

This is all quite ironic. The SSPCA can be a waste of space but this just proves they'll never get it right in most people's eyes regardless of what they do. They don't act and get slated for being ineffective. They DO act and get slated for being over-zealous.


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## MillyMoomie (26 May 2013)

Natch I really am not about to explain it again! 

The owner will know why the horses were removed, there has also been an interview where it would again have been explained very clearly. 

You are thinking of the charity commission.


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## weesophz (26 May 2013)

i knew the horse years ago. he was out on loan and when his owner went to get him he was standing up to his knees in mud with a shetland, he was skin and bone. i was stunned when she brought him back. he was in worst state than fox was when i got him. where was the sspca then?


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## Kallibear (26 May 2013)

weesophz said:



			i knew the horse years ago. he was out on loan and when his owner went to get him he was standing up to his knees in mud with a shetland, he was skin and bone. i was stunned when she brought him back. he was in worst state than fox was when i got him. where was the sspca then?
		
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Was it actually reported? And what would you have liked them to do? Take the horse away from the owner? They'd yet again be slated for being over-zelous. The most they could have done was go and talk to the loan home. They would have done that if asked. Were they?


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## weesophz (26 May 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Was it actually reported? And what would you have liked them to do? Take the horse away from the owner? They'd yet again be slated for being over-zelous. The most they could have done was go and talk to the loan home. They would have done that if asked. Were they?
		
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im not sure what the outcome was as she moved away about a week after she got him back. i dont think they would have been called over zealous if theyd dealt with the people who had left him and a shetland starving in a bare field!


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## MillyMoomie (26 May 2013)

Kallibear agree. They can't win. 

People will always have their opinions, nothing wrong with that. My issue is the attempted swaying of opinions when there are no actual facts being given or any questions answered. At least give people the opportunity to measure up the information for themselves.


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## Kallibear (26 May 2013)

im not sure what the outcome was as she moved away about a week after she got him back. i dont think they would have been called over zealous if theyd dealt with the people who had left him and a shetland starving in a bare field!
		
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 people who starved him (the loaners) no longer had him. The SSPCA  won't be able to do any more than a stern talking-to and keep an eye on any new horses. They would have done that if asked. They wouldn't even have known about it though if noone told them! What else could you expect them to do? Remove the horses that didn't even belong to the loaners and were no longer in their care?!


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## Girlracer (26 May 2013)

I suspect there is far more to this than the information we're being fed.


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## OAP65 (26 May 2013)

Exactly as I said before, damned if they do and damned if they don't. I am sure that everything will come out in the wash. I have my own opinion and no well edited emotional video will change my mind.


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## hnmisty (26 May 2013)

If this is exactly as it seems from the loaner's point of view, then this is absolutely ridiculous. 

Yeah ok, he's not in tip top condition. That doesn't warrant taking him into custody. That warrants at the most, an inspector going to the yard and having a word to suggest a few improvements. Think how many reports you read about welfare cases where the charity/DEFRA weren't able to do anything as the animals weren't in bad enough condition. This horse hardly looks a terrible welfare case to me.

That anti weaving grill actually makes me feel sick.


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## OAP65 (26 May 2013)

I would like Help Humphrey to come back and state TRUTHFULLY if they or anyone on their yard has had previous contact with SSPCA regarding any of their horses' welfare (going back, say 8 or 9 months).


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## Lego (26 May 2013)

As lots of others have said, there must be something else going on here...

I understand that any organisation can only make limited comments about a live investigation, but surely given the public interest in this, and the fact that it has made it onto forums and facebook would mean that some sort of public statement from them would be expected?

I too would be very concerned about the apparent lack of documented procedure on the day of the seizure. Surely it would be in the charities interests to ensure that there is an appropriate  paper trail for something like a seizure? And surely the SSPCA could at least then make the comment that 'correct SSPCA procedures, as published in X, preceding and during the seizure were followed and fully documented'. No specific comment, but would answer a lot of questions about whether the seizure was really legitimate...

Even if they were justified taking an admittedly pretty poor horse, seemingly not producing documentation, and the smirking officer, seriously calls their procedures into question...

As for those who say wait it out - I would be absolutely beside myself if my horse was in unknown care for even a day. Presumably they wouldn't have asked about feed and turnout regime, or allergies etc to minimise moving stress?


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## piebaldsparkle (26 May 2013)

OAP65 said:



			I would like Help Humphrey to come back and state TRUTHFULLY if they or anyone on their yard has had previous contact with SSPCA regarding any of their horses' welfare (going back, say 8 or 9 months).
		
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What is it to do with them if others have had previous contact?


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## Natch (26 May 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			Natch I really am not about to explain it again!
		
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Well, no. There is no need to.




			The owner will know why the horses were removed, there has also been an interview where it would again have been explained very clearly.
		
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This is a statement that concurs with the SSPCA quote in the article, but doesn't concur with the person(s) who are appealing for help. At the moment we of HHO don't know which is true, so there is bound to be debate and speculation.




			You are thinking of the charity commission.
		
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Thank you, yes I was.


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## OAP65 (26 May 2013)

piebaldsparkle said:



			What is it to do with them if others have had previous contact?
		
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Two horses seized, one livery owners, one other not livery owners, I was asking if there has been previous contact with SSPCA regarding both horses' welfare going back 8 pr 9 months) prior to being seized. Maybe I am not explaining myself very well.

Oh and by the way, its only been dark for about half an hour


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## piebaldsparkle (26 May 2013)

OAP65 said:



			Oh and by the way, its only been dark for about half an hour 

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LOL no way!


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## charlie76 (26 May 2013)

I haven't had any dealings with the sspca or the rspca personally,  however,  I have reported some one for having a very lame horse turned out in the field and I have watched numerous programmes about it.  There was also an article in one of the monthly horse magazines following the rspca.  
In every incident,  unless the horse was in an EXTREMELY bad way,  the owners are given a warning to improve to start with,  they don't just take the animals.  They also have a warrant to seize and always give the owner paperwork.  They have to follow procedures or they would be stuffed if and when the case went to court.  They would also collect photographic evidence of the horse and its surroundings.  

I'm sorry but you are not getting the whole story imo


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## hnmisty (26 May 2013)

piebaldsparkle said:



			LOL no way!
		
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Far north, stays lighter at night!


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## piebaldsparkle (26 May 2013)

hnmisty said:



			Far north, stays lighter at night! 

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Yet we still ****** about with our clocks so it doesn't get too dark too early up north in winter.


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## piebaldsparkle (26 May 2013)

charlie76 said:



			They also have a warrant to seize
		
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SPCA have different powers, which seem open to heavy hand tactics.


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## Amymay (27 May 2013)

Interesting kallibear.


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## weesophz (27 May 2013)

Kallibear said:



			people who starved him (the loaners) no longer had him. The SSPCA  won't be able to do any more than a stern talking-to and keep an eye on any new horses. They would have done that if asked. They wouldn't even have known about it though if noone told them! What else could you expect them to do? Remove the horses that didn't even belong to the loaners and were no longer in their care?!
		
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i mean at the time the horse was being starved, not afterwards!


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## Kallibear (27 May 2013)

weesophz said:



			i mean at the time the horse was being starved, not afterwards!
		
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Did the SSPCA even know? Were they told? How are they meant to 'do something' if they don't know about it?!


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## glamourpuss (27 May 2013)

Having read through this thread something has jumped out at me.
The SSPCA were acting on a complaint from someone. It isn't like they just wandered in & thought 'Ooh I'll take those 2 horses'
Something about the situation with Humphey, be it his condition, how hard he was worked whilst looking thin and/or what was being done to him in the 40 minutes they were loading him concerned another horse owner/bystander so much they contacted the SSPCA. 
This is the thing for me. If this person had posted a 'today I reported someone to the SSPCA' giving their reasons why they had done what they had done the replies would've been congratulating them & condemning the owner 

I'm not 100% sure how I feel about this story. Because of what I've put above I don't feel like we are getting the full story.

That said poor/thin/lean no horse of mine would've gone on a fast, hard 5 hour ride looking like that 
Horses can drop weight, for whatever reason it means they aren't getting enough calories to be ignorant to this & treat the animal as a machine expecting them to work very hard is a welfare issue.


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## mcnaughty (27 May 2013)

If that video has been taken an hour or so after a very long hard ride, it would not surprise me to see it lean and tucked up.  A TB of his age at that time of year is unlikely to be carrying any surplus weight.  In fact even after several weeks of Dr Green, there are a couple at our yard that still look pretty rubbish and we have good grazing!

Something is wrong here and I believe OP is holding back on us with some very important information.  Nothing is going to happen to this horse while the investigation takes place - other than rack up a substantial bill for the owner!  Time will tell so lets just sit back and wait.


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## ponygirrl (27 May 2013)

Hi there is also a facebook page set up to help humphrey, 
911 likes in a few days it has been up...please all go on and like the page to help spread the word more x


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## ponygirrl (27 May 2013)

Angelbones said:



			That's a beautiful video of a girl who apparently adores her horse and her horse appears to love her back and be in good health. What are we not seeing? Surely somebody has been in touch with a solicitor etc? I'd like to know more - can't find anything on google - does anyone have any further knowledge of this? If it is as cut and dried as in the video then I'm appalled.
		
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blackbess said:



			How do we know "normal Procedure" wasn't adhered to?
We have only heard one side of the story, as the rider is avoiding answering certain questions.

This is what I make of it, The SSPCA were called to an incident, as is quoted in The Scotsman newspaper:


The SSPCA arrived after it took the girl 40 mins to load the horse, she refused to remove the horse from the transport, so it could be examined, so the Inspector followed her back to where the horse is normally kept. From what I can see from the video a vet and Police were also in attendance.

Humphrey is now under the care of the Scottish SPCA at their Welfare Centre at Balerno, Edinburgh.

I imagine whatever happen must have taken place after the ride and at time of the loading?
		
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Hi, the reason she did not want to unload the animal is pretty understandable. Humphrey does not like loading into the box, after 40 minutes he was pretty stressed out but she had him loaded. The last thing the girl wanted to do was unload him and then make him go through it all again causing even more distress to him. Hope this clears it up for you


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## Equilibrium Ireland (27 May 2013)

I read this entire thread. At first I was like no way. How dare they. Then I got to the part about loading and abuse allegations. Something isn't right. Horse is too thin to be doing the worked asked. I've spent my life with TB's. Have an 18yo one myself. And while no he should not have been seized on condition alone, I think condition is only part of what's going on here. Yes I know how TB's can get gaunt looking after a big day out. I took my ex racer to a show just for an under saddle class. He was a gentelman for me but I took him home before my class even started. He was not enjoying himself and he didn't have to do this. I have others that go to shows and love it. While Frank was drawn up he did not look like a hat rack. His neck, for instance, did not become gaunt. 

I also am taking on board other comments from those that were there. And enough of we only just had spring here in Scotland. I've yet to be able to put the med wt rugs away here. An odd nice day.  I had to feed more than normal for quite some time. Even 3 meals a day for some. The feeding in the forage just hasn't been there as in past years. So you know you have to do what you have to do. Being a little lean is fine. Being lean and doing what was asked of this horse was not. You may well love your horse but you did not take his welfare to account on the day. I would also like to know about this poor bay mare. 

As far as Facebook, well I have a non blood family member with a page on there. Suffice to say it's not as it appears. It's amazing how distorted the truth can become.

Terri


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## Tern (27 May 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			I read this entire thread. At first I was like no way. How dare they. Then I got to the part about loading and abuse allegations. Something isn't right. Horse is too thin to be doing the worked asked. I've spent my life with TB's. Have an 18yo one myself. And while no he should not have been seized on condition alone, I think condition is only part of what's going on here. Yes I know how TB's can get gaunt looking after a big day out. I took my ex racer to a show just for an under saddle class. He was a gentelman for me but I took him home before my class even started. He was not enjoying himself and he didn't have to do this. I have others that go to shows and love it. While Frank was drawn up he did not look like a hat rack. His neck, for instance, did not become gaunt. 

I also am taking on board other comments from those that were there. And enough of we only just had spring here in Scotland. I've yet to be able to put the med wt rugs away here. An odd nice day.  I had to feed more than normal for quite some time. Even 3 meals a day for some. The feeding in the forage just hasn't been there as in past years. So you know you have to do what you have to do. Being a little lean is fine. Being lean and doing what was asked of this horse was not. You may well love your horse but you did not take his welfare to account on the day. I would also like to know about this poor bay mare. 

As far as Facebook, well I have a non blood family member with a page on there. Suffice to say it's not as it appears. It's amazing how distorted the truth can become.

Terri
		
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Took the words out my mouth  Exactly what i was thinking! Something is not adding up here at all


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## Kallibear (27 May 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			I would also like to know about this poor bay mare. 

Terri
		
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She was the reason the SSPCA was called. She was truely emaciated. I've never seems such a thin horse in real life. We (and others) spoke to the girl on board (a novice who'd been told by the owner and YO that the ride would do the horse good) and said the horse looked like that as 'it lived out all winter' etc. We tried to find out where she was from (didn't realise at the time it was linked to the chestnut) so we could report it but someone got there before us.

The chestnut literally spend 5hrs cantering and jogging sideways. The rider must have been knackered,never mind the horse! Apparently it was removed because it was lame on 3 legs and various people have been asked to give witness to it (and the bay) being on the ride.


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## Tern (27 May 2013)

Kallibear said:



			She was the reason the SSPCA was called. She was truely emaciated. I've never seems such a thin horse in real life. We (and others) spoke to the girl on board (a novice who'd been told by the owner and YO that the ride would do the horse good) and said the horse looked like that as 'it lived out all winter' etc. We tried to find out where she was from (didn't realise at the time it was linked to the chestnut) so we could report it but someone got there before us.

The chestnut literally spend 5hrs cantering and jogging sideways. The rider must have been knackered,never mind the horse! Apparently it was removed because it was lame on 3 legs and various people have been asked to give witness to it (and the bay) being on the ride.
		
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But was it lame? Saying it was 'Apparently lame on 3 legs' doesn't prove it was.


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## ponygirrl (27 May 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			I read this entire thread. At first I was like no way. How dare they. Then I got to the part about loading and abuse allegations. Something isn't right. Horse is too thin to be doing the worked asked. I've spent my life with TB's. Have an 18yo one myself. And while no he should not have been seized on condition alone, I think condition is only part of what's going on here. Yes I know how TB's can get gaunt looking after a big day out. I took my ex racer to a show just for an under saddle class. He was a gentelman for me but I took him home before my class even started. He was not enjoying himself and he didn't have to do this. I have others that go to shows and love it. While Frank was drawn up he did not look like a hat rack. His neck, for instance, did not become gaunt. 

I also am taking on board other comments from those that were there. And enough of we only just had spring here in Scotland. I've yet to be able to put the med wt rugs away here. An odd nice day.  I had to feed more than normal for quite some time. Even 3 meals a day for some. The feeding in the forage just hasn't been there as in past years. So you know you have to do what you have to do. Being a little lean is fine. Being lean and doing what was asked of this horse was not. You may well love your horse but you did not take his welfare to account on the day. I would also like to know about this poor bay mare. 

As far as Facebook, well I have a non blood family member with a page on there. Suffice to say it's not as it appears. It's amazing how distorted the truth can become.

Terri
		
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Hi Terri, 

I totally understand how you find this hard to believe - so do all of Hump's supporters. If it hadn't happened to someone I know so well I would not believe it either. Hard as it is to believe the truth has not been distorted. It is fact, Hump has passed three vet checks, he has gone from being a happy horse to a horse in need of an anti weave device. He has also sustained injury since being taken. I hope that your RSPCA or what ever body is in Ireland do not act as they do here. His conditions on his yard were great and he was cared for to the highest standards. 

Help to get Hump back x


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## Kallibear (27 May 2013)

I say 'apparently' as that was the reason I have heard the horse was removed. I honestly couldn't say if it was lame as it literally spent the whole ride cantering and plunging sideways.


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## Mince Pie (27 May 2013)

I think it would be interesting to see a recent, side on shot of the horse. However if he has been given a clean bill of health by an independent vet then I think it adds credence to him being lean and fit instead of skinny.


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## ponygirrl (27 May 2013)

Kallibear said:



			She was the reason the SSPCA was called. She was truely emaciated. I've never seems such a thin horse in real life. We (and others) spoke to the girl on board (a novice who'd been told by the owner and YO that the ride would do the horse good) and said the horse looked like that as 'it lived out all winter' etc. We tried to find out where she was from (didn't realise at the time it was linked to the chestnut) so we could report it but someone got there before us.

The chestnut literally spend 5hrs cantering and jogging sideways. The rider must have been knackered,never mind the horse! Apparently it was removed because it was lame on 3 legs and various people have been asked to give witness to it (and the bay) being on the ride.
		
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Hi Kallibera, I think you have addressed this already that you didn't know for a fact if he was lame on any legs. I would just like to clarify this for you and everybody who is reading this thread, Hump was passed fit by three vets. Did you see the video? In the vid he turns a really tight circle (that was shot on day of common ride) I dont know your knowledge but I'm presuming you know a fair bit about horses, a lame horse could not do that. There is no lameness on the video and it would be clearly evident if he was lame even on one leg. A vet has looked at that vid and said he most defo is not lame. Hope that clears up that issue x
Thanks


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## MillyMoomie (27 May 2013)

Ponygirrl, maybe you will answer my questions, so far no one has.
1. 3 vet checks? When? Independent vets that the owner or person responsible would have been offered to have? 
2. Is HelpHphrey the owner?
3. Why is the FB site stating that Humphrey was stolen or taken without a warrant?
4. Why was a horse that was clearly not on good condition ( from the video before the ride) taken on a fast long common ride?
5. An interview has taken place, who was interviewed and why ( this would have been made clear)
6. What evidence is there that Humphrey is in distress
7. Why is there no information about the other horse that was removed? Seems strange when from the same yard.

Thank you


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## ponygirrl (27 May 2013)

Hi Milly Moomie

here is what I can answer;
1. 3 vet checks? When? Independent vets that the owner or person responsible would have been offered to have? 
yes 3 vets have checked him and passed him as fit 

2. Is HelpHphrey the owner? - 
dont know this, but why do you want to know? 

3. Why is the FB site stating that Humphrey was stolen or taken without a warrant?
Because that is the truth. 

4. Why was a horse that was clearly not on good condition ( from the video before the ride) taken on a fast long common ride? This is your opinion - but it is not the shared opinion of the vast amount of people who have viewed the video.

5. An interview has taken place, who was interviewed and why ( this would have been made clear)
I don't have this info - sorry

6. What evidence is there that Humphrey is in distress
I take it you mean at the SSPCA yard? He has been fitted with an anti weave device (for stressed unhappy anxious animals). This is a clear sign that he is in distress to me and many people. Also, there is a tonne of much right under his nose. Foul filthy conditions which would attract flies. 

7. Why is there no information about the other horse that was removed? Seems strange when from the same yard.

The horses are owned by different people
Hope that helps x



MillyMoomie said:



			Ponygirrl, maybe you will answer my questions, so far no one has.
1. 3 vet checks? When? Independent vets that the owner or person responsible would have been offered to have? 
2. Is HelpHphrey the owner?
3. Why is the FB site stating that Humphrey was stolen or taken without a warrant?
4. Why was a horse that was clearly not on good condition ( from the video before the ride) taken on a fast long common ride?
5. An interview has taken place, who was interviewed and why ( this would have been made clear)
6. What evidence is there that Humphrey is in distress
7. Why is there no information about the other horse that was removed? Seems strange when from the same yard.

Thank you
		
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## MillyMoomie (27 May 2013)

Hi Ponygirrl thanks for at least trying, because I too have some inside knowledge from the other side of the fence none of this adds up. But I respect you for answering me. 
One thing is I find highly foolish though and that I recommend all connections stop is trying to convince people that Humphrey was 'taken without a warrant etc etc etc'. As I'm sure you all know that the SPCA inspectors have powers that include to seize, therefore no warrant needed and no theft. Even if this wasn't the case your videos clearly show police and vets in attendance which backs up that the horses were removed legally and on welfare grounds. 
Is this is going to be your arguement for having Humphrey returned I would possible think again, and maybe get some legal advice.


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## OAP65 (27 May 2013)

Ditto MillyMoomie, I too know some of those involved and saw both horses in question on the day. I may be old but my optician tells me there's nothing wrong with my eyes! I am getting seriously pissed off with this now.


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## Norfolk Pie (27 May 2013)

I've avoided commenting so far, but would just like to raise the following points, as unfortunately those associated with this horse are not making themselves look very knowledgable IMO.

I totally understand that the young girl who owns /rides him must be heartbroken.  However, I agree with others on here who say that from the recent videos that horse is not in a fit condition to take part in a ride.  It has been a long winter, and as an older TB he may well have struggled. But part of our responsibility as owners is to ensure our horses are fit enough for the work asked of them.  

I actually don't particularly advocate the use of weave grills. However, a horse that doesn't weave won't be distressed by it being fitted, and in one video clip it is implied the horse doesn't weave. There are too many unknowns to judge, or worry, about that factor - eg is it fitted to the stable as standard? Is the horse spending more time stabled because it is on box rest due to unsoundness, and therefore a little fractious?(I didn't think he looked distressed on the SPCA yard, but the last thing you want with an unsound horse is it continually transferring weight from one leg to the other on a stable floor)


It is not possible to tell if a horse is lame by watching it on a short video clip on a circle in walk - hopping lame (eg abscess etc) yes, but not in many cases where a horse might be notably unlevel trotting up. The horse was not taken on a ride in walk, he has been on a fast ride and thefore the assessment would need to more appropriate. My old horse is arthritic and will not cope with trot work(and therefore is not asked to)  but would certainly walk a circle looking sound   when multiple limb lameness is involved, it becomes even more difficult to tell,  and many horses actually look "sound" because they are equally "lame' in all their legs.  However, I'm afrid in my opinion there are instances in the videos (inc jumping ones) where the horse does look lame. 

With regard to the other concern, I don't assume the muck trailer is perminantly parked in front of the stable?  Just a convenient peace of video footage for an understandably upset family.

I do sympathise with the situation, as it must be horrible for all involved - I also do not, on the whole, have a high opinion on welfare charities, so I am not saying that what they've done must be right - but from watching the clips, I have to say if it was my horse out on loan, I would be picking it up immediately - I'm sure there are plenty worse off all over the country, but that doesn't actually make the type, quantity or quality of work this horse is being asked to perform, correct. 
I hope it is all resolved to everyone's best interests (most importantly the horse) but perhaps an honest look at whether Humphrey should really being asked to undertake this level of work is required? Sometimes it is possible to not see something so close, which is obvious to outsiders?


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## Palindrome (27 May 2013)

This horse is seriously emaciated, he should not be in any hard work. No matter how often the owner kisses him or how much they love him, they were obviously not taking good care of him. Really, they should be ashamed of themselves instead of posting stupid montage videos.

And those who confuse a fit racehorse or fit eventer with an emaciated horse? Come on, the only common point between both is seeing ribs, a fit horse has a good muscle coverage, this one is just very poor.


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## charlie76 (27 May 2013)

Palindrome.. totally agree


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## touchstone (27 May 2013)

Looing at the video again it also seems that the horse is frequently bandaged and wearing a cool or magnetic (?) boot on his offside hind, while jumping (!) which does suggest that he may have issues with his soundness.


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## Kallibear (27 May 2013)

Palindrome: the horse is not emaciated. He was lean and unmuscled but if I saw him in a field i wouldn't be concerned. Was he ok to do such a ride? No, prob not. The bay mare not mentioned by the pro-Humphrey's was emaciated. Truely emaciated. I'm not one for sensationalising but she was 0.5/5 body condition.


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## Emilieu (27 May 2013)

The bandage question was raised and addressed on fb. Apparently the vet advised keeping the leg bandaged following a degloving injury in the past.


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## charlie76 (27 May 2013)

And egg bar shoes in front,  also suggesting soundness issues


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## Kelly1982 (27 May 2013)

I'm a bit confused, does the 15yo have the horse on loan or does she actually own it? And how long has she had the horse for?

In the video the older clips (last summer I'm assuming) he actually looks to be a nice weight but its the more recent clips where he looks very underweight which to me would suggest a bad winter with novice owners?? Agreed though he shouldn't of been on the ride in that poor condition but I have seen a lot worse. 

What I can't get my head around though is that if what help Humphrey and pony girl say is true and the horse has been passed fit by 3 vets then why has it not been returned??


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## asbo (27 May 2013)

The girl rides him for his owner as far as I know, not 100% sure, but if you go on FB there is a page for him.


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## Palindrome (27 May 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Palindrome: the horse is not emaciated. He was lean and unmuscled but if I saw him in a field i wouldn't be concerned. Was he ok to do such a ride? No, prob not. The bay mare not mentioned by the pro-Humphrey's was emaciated. Truely emaciated. I'm not one for sensationalising but she was 0.5/5 body condition.
		
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In the facts I agree Kallibear (may be not in wording, as I would still say he is very emaciated). If I saw him in a field, properly rugged according to temperature and thinking owners are doing all they can to put weight on him and have taken vet advice upon his lack of condition, then of course what more can you do? But he was clearly being worked hard.

I don't know at all about the rest of the story, I am just going from what we can see of him at the meet on the video the OP posted.


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## Lolo (27 May 2013)

Palindrome said:



			This horse is seriously emaciated, he should not be in any hard work. No matter how often the owner kisses him or how much they love him, they were obviously not taking good care of him. Really, they should be ashamed of themselves instead of posting stupid montage videos.

And those who confuse a fit racehorse or fit eventer with an emaciated horse? Come on, the only common point between both is seeing ribs, a fit horse has a good muscle coverage, this one is just very poor.
		
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This. I wouldn't say emaciated, but I would say very thin.

Long, hard winters are no excuse. We kept a TB considerably older than this one, who hunted all winter, looking in very good condition. It was hard work- the horse was a poor doer, and didn't enjoy his food- but it was doable without breaking the bank. Allowing a horse of any type to get to this stage of 'leanness' is not excusable IMO. If we could manage as novice horse owners with no guidance (he was our first horse, having only owned chubby ponies) then surely others can too?


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## Kelly1982 (27 May 2013)

Lolo I totally agree and if my horse was as poor as this i would take all the advise offered to me but you can only advise some people so much. Some people are just too ignorant to listen, give up on advise too easily or simply refuse to believe they just can't afford to care for the horses needs and carry on regardless.


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## justabob (27 May 2013)

Palindrome said:



			This horse is seriously emaciated, he should not be in any hard work. No matter how often the owner kisses him or how much they love him, they were obviously not taking good care of him. Really, they should be ashamed of themselves instead of posting stupid montage videos.

And those who confuse a fit racehorse or fit eventer with an emaciated horse? Come on, the only common point between both is seeing ribs, a fit horse has a good muscle coverage, this one is just very poor.
		
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The above post by Palindrome is spot on. Just to add, the old excuse that it has been a long hard winter is a poor excuse. Horses should be fed according to the weather conditions and maintain a healthy weight no matter what the conditions throw at us. The proof of a good owner is mirrored in the condition of their horse, and in poor Humphreys case clearly he has not been receiving enough care.


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## OAP65 (27 May 2013)

Justabob you have hit it right on the nail. Couldn't have said it any better.


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## MillyMoomie (27 May 2013)

Justabob , at last someone who sounds like a responsible horse owner!!

Agree 100%


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## Lolo (27 May 2013)

justabob said:



			The above post by Palindrome is spot on. Just to add, the old excuse that it has been a long hard winter is a poor excuse. Horses should be fed according to the weather conditions and maintain a healthy weight no matter what the conditions throw at us. The proof of a good owner is mirrored in the condition of their horse, and in poor Humphreys case clearly he has not been receiving enough care.
		
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Again, spot on. 

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/522926_3532436156696_736114745_n.jpg
This is a 25/26yo TB ex-racer, coming out of a winter of hunting and indoor SJ, taken at this time of year on the first sunny day. They've just been let out onto the summer grazing- he'd spent all winter in a mudbath or knee deep in snow. I challenge anyone to say that he looks anything other than in fantastic condition, regardless of his age.


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## OAP65 (27 May 2013)

WOW! ))))


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## Parachute (27 May 2013)

I got angered by the officer laughing tbh..


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## justabob (27 May 2013)

Lovely Lolo, as they should look.


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## CobsGalore (27 May 2013)

Yes the horse looks poor, but wouldn't it be in their best interests to educate and advise the owner rather than take him? There must be something else going on that we aren't being told, authorities don't just come and take animals for no reason.


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## MiniMilton (27 May 2013)

Norfolk Pie said:



			I've avoided commenting so far, but would just like to raise the following points, as unfortunately those associated with this horse are not making themselves look very knowledgable IMO.

I totally understand that the young girl who owns /rides him must be heartbroken.  However, I agree with others on here who say that from the recent videos that horse is not in a fit condition to take part in a ride.  It has been a long winter, and as an older TB he may well have struggled. But part of our responsibility as owners is to ensure our horses are fit enough for the work asked of them.  

I actually don't particularly advocate the use of weave grills. However, a horse that doesn't weave won't be distressed by it being fitted, and in one video clip it is implied the horse doesn't weave. There are too many unknowns to judge, or worry, about that factor - eg is it fitted to the stable as standard? Is the horse spending more time stabled because it is on box rest due to unsoundness, and therefore a little fractious?(I didn't think he looked distressed on the SPCA yard, but the last thing you want with an unsound horse is it continually transferring weight from one leg to the other on a stable floor)


It is not possible to tell if a horse is lame by watching it on a short video clip on a circle in walk - hopping lame (eg abscess etc) yes, but not in many cases where a horse might be notably unlevel trotting up. The horse was not taken on a ride in walk, he has been on a fast ride and thefore the assessment would need to more appropriate. My old horse is arthritic and will not cope with trot work(and therefore is not asked to)  but would certainly walk a circle looking sound   when multiple limb lameness is involved, it becomes even more difficult to tell,  and many horses actually look "sound" because they are equally "lame' in all their legs.  However, I'm afrid in my opinion there are instances in the videos (inc jumping ones) where the horse does look lame. 

With regard to the other concern, I don't assume the muck trailer is perminantly parked in front of the stable?  Just a convenient peace of video footage for an understandably upset family.

I do sympathise with the situation, as it must be horrible for all involved - I also do not, on the whole, have a high opinion on welfare charities, so I am not saying that what they've done must be right - but from watching the clips, I have to say if it was my horse out on loan, I would be picking it up immediately - I'm sure there are plenty worse off all over the country, but that doesn't actually make the type, quantity or quality of work this horse is being asked to perform, correct. 
I hope it is all resolved to everyone's best interests (most importantly the horse) but perhaps an honest look at whether Humphrey should really being asked to undertake this level of work is required? Sometimes it is possible to not see something so close, which is obvious to outsiders?
		
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excellent post


Many yards have anti weaving grilles fitted to the stable doors as standard. Its not something I particularly like but it causes the horse no harm or distress. The owner should not be trying to use this as ammunition against the sspca.


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## Lolo (27 May 2013)

justabob said:



			Lovely Lolo, as they should look.
		
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Thank you. He was hard work, but worth it!



CobsGalore said:



			Yes the horse looks poor, but wouldn't it be in their best interests to educate and advise the owner rather than take him? There must be something else going on that we aren't being told, authorities don't just come and take animals for no reason.
		
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But then, educate how? How far does this go? You look at that horse, and if you think he's in correct condition then you need to go right back to basics. It's very sad he's been removed, and if it's all as said on here with no other reasoning then sure, it's unfair he's been removed. But equally, if you don't know that he is poor then you shouldn't own a horse. Especially not an older one.


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## chesnut90 (27 May 2013)

Been reading through this thread and agree and disagree with points.
I wouldn't say that this horse is seriously emaciated, look on google or even horse welfare cases and you will see an emaciated horse, they can hardly stand! So for this horse to still be galloping around the field and jumping etc maybe he doesn't get hard feeds maybe he's just on grass all year round through winters and all, Each to their own but he's obviously on the thin side I agree and looks like he needs a few good feeds. 
There must be more to what meets the eye I would think, if something doesn't ring true its probably coz it doesn't. But that girl looks like she loves that horse, has she had horses before? I'm not excusing it but maybe she doesn't know better and the owner of this horse can't afford to keep him properly.


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## hippo-horse (27 May 2013)

I have had a look online at the actual legislation in Scotland on animal welfare. I found this ,REMOVING ANIMALS IN DANGER

An animal health and welfare inspector from a local authority, a member of the State Veterinary Service, an authorised inspector from the Scottish SPCA or a police officer can remove a protected animal if a vet certifies that the animal is suffering or is in danger of suffering. However, where urgent action is necessary the animal can be removed without waiting for a vet. Dependent offspring can also be removed. For example, if a cat with a litter of young kittens is suffering or in danger of suffering, then the mother cat and her kittens could be removed by an inspector or police officer.
CARE NOTICES

Rather than taking people to court for failing to ensure the welfare of an animal, inspectors may issue care notices to the person responsible for the animal. These notices can be used if the inspector believes that the person responsible for an animal is failing in his or her duty of care to secure the welfare of the animal. A care notice will give the person responsible for the animal time to correct the situation. Unless there is a valid excuse, it is an offence to fail to comply with a care notice. A care notice would not normally be used in cases where a person was suspected of causing an animal unnecessary suffering.  This is from the Scottish Executive booklet caring for animals  http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2006/10/13113744/1 .So, as far as I can see the SSPCA were very heavy handed here , and I have seen them do far less for a horse that was far poorer . I'm not even sure if that owner was served a care notice, just told to stable and feed more.


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## TeddyBean (27 May 2013)

Natch said:



			public staements were made about both Amersham and the recent rescue from Caephilly shortly after the removal of equines but while there were  live investigations going on.
		
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Those were large scale welfare cases which were high profile and where a large number of animals were involved. This case is only really just coming into the public eye and really, it's a small scale case.

I don't really know what to think... there must have been some valid reason why the two horses were taken, the sspca could not just seize the animals with no reason. I do agree however that they should have given the valid paperwork at the time.
That leads onto why were both the horses taken? To me, it suggests that there may have been an issue with the stabling or the land which had not been rectified after a warning?
Humphrey does look in pretty poor condition and is most probably due to the poor winter, however, in that condition he should not have been working at the level he was.

I am only speculating here...

There is a more sinister theory which is buzzing around in my head, but I don't want to get the stick for it, so in my head it shall stay.


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## Clippy (28 May 2013)

This is the clip of the horse being taken by the SSPCA. If he's just been on a 5hr ride, I don't think he looks that bad and to me certainly doesn't look "emaciated" as some people have said

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sZBEelBVoOY


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## HelpHumphrey (28 May 2013)

Ok here goes....there have been a few false accusations on here, no horses from that yard were hacked there or back, please get your facts correct before making theses statements. I am not the owner due to legal reasons he can not comment but everyone that witnessed this seizure can...no documention was produced that night or to this day! Owner was interviewed under caution but wasn't charged for anything and still hasn't...vet reports have been produced to say this horse was not emciated what so ever so choose what you believe with that. He was seized due to lameness which a spiteful person who the owner knows of and is a pathetic excuse for man reported him to be lame before the ride started just because he holds a grudge with the owner for leaving his yard 3 years ago, many witnesses and videos say otherwise and I'm sure the marshals would have noticed and asked the horse to be pulled out of the ride? You are all more than welcome to your opinions and if you believe hes emciated so be it but qualified vets say otherwise....yes he doesn't look great when being seized, he's just done 5 hour common ride been loaded which took 40mins due to another lorry almost hitting him then to get home and then to be put through the whole process again with a severe heart murmur?? The murmur has now been deemed minor so was only elevated due to the stress from almost being hit by a lorry....people are saying there must be more to this story...there isn't this is why everyone is so outraged and gone public with it all


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

Clippy said:



			This is the clip of the horse being taken by the SSPCA. If he's just been on a 5hr ride, I don't think he looks that bad and to me certainly doesn't look "emaciated" as some people have said

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sZBEelBVoOY

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He looks awful.



HelpHumphrey said:



			.no documention was produced that night or to this day! l
		
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In that case why did the owner allow the horse to be removed?  I certainly wouldn't have.


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## Kelly1982 (28 May 2013)

Why has he not been returned then if no charges have been made?


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## Goldenstar (28 May 2013)

amymay said:



			He looks awful.



In that case why did the owner allow the horse to be removed?  I certainly wouldn't have.
		
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You can't stop your horse being removed Amymay , if you end up in this situation the only thing you could do is get your own vet to the scene ASAP if your own vet would give a contrary view to the SSPA view you might have persuaded the police that the horse should not be taken .
The horse does not look great it's condition is awful he is however not in fine fettle either.
I don't see a police officer in the video in England if the police are not there you could simply refuse and get your horse home pronto.
I have seen far worse dealt with with advise and follow up visits.


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## shadowboy (28 May 2013)

He doesn't look great BUT having been to view numerous ex racers just being shed from various racing yards he doesn't look any worse than those I've seen from some very well respected trainers. Whilst I'm not condoning his weight I think removing the animal is an extreme reaction and a bit odd it does all come across as a bit dodgy somehow? I've seen far far worse being left by animal charities


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## Goldenstar (28 May 2013)

Kelly1982 said:



			Why has he not been returned then if no charges have been made?
		
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In England you have six months to charge someone , the horse can be held for all that time there will be alimit in Scotland too.


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## HelpHumphrey (28 May 2013)

Kelly1982 said:



			Why has he not been returned then if no charges have been made?
		
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Good question we are still awaiting an answer for that to...

No care order notice was ever given previously to this day. No warnings.

Police were only there as they didnt like us filming it so police arrived and allowed us to as it wasn't against the law. Inspector told police this case was severe enough for a seizure. Vet report since he was seized says otherwise


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			You can't stop your horse being removed Amymay
		
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If someone turned up to my yard with no paperwork which explained clearly why the horse was being removed - they would not be taking it, it's as simple as that.


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## Goldenstar (28 May 2013)

amymay said:



			If someone turned up to my yard with no paperwork which explained clearly why the horse was being removed - they would not be taking it, it's as simple as that.
		
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The police would simply arrest you .


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## HelpHumphrey (28 May 2013)

Bit different when you are in that situation and don't know your rights till after...owner requested his own vet for 2nd opinion this was refused another right that was abused...


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			The police would simply arrest you .
		
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Interestingly they wouldn't be able to.  As no paperwork had been produced, there would be no grounds for arrest.

It really doesn't get much simpler than that.


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## Goldenstar (28 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey said:



			Bit different when you are in that situation and don't know your rights till after...owner requested his own vet for 2nd opinion this was refused another right that was abused...
		
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Of course owner did not know what to do .
But if the police are there he would have had to comply he ought to have run his own vet stalled and got the vet there pronto they could not have prevented that and said to the police my own vet is coming please wait please give me your name and number so I can take this up later but it's easy to say from here.
But what have they done now have they got a solicitor to write to the SSPA demanding return of the horse on the basis of contrasting vets opinions.


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## HelpHumphrey (28 May 2013)

Owner did not know he had a right for 2nd opinion till the next day...there is a lot we wished we had known that night as he would have never been taken...we want the public to know that this can happen to anyone and has been going on for a long time...


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## Goldenstar (28 May 2013)

amymay said:



			Interestingly they wouldn't be able to.  As no paperwork had been produced, there would be no grounds for arrest.

It really doesn't get much simpler than that.
		
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The police can arrest you when they want it's is that simple they would simply say your behaviour was likely to cause a breach of the peace .
I have no idea in Scotland what the law says in paper work terms has to be given to to the keeper of a horse being removed and I suspect neither do you .
The inspector would simply lead your horse off you would attempt to stop them the police would arrest you .


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## Bedlam (28 May 2013)

I'm another who thinks there is probably more to this than we are being told. In my opinion he doesn't look sound in the videos and definitely looks uncomfortable jumping - rushing with his head in the air.

In all honesty he doesn't look like a rescus case to me weightwise - I've seen worse at riding schools. He could do with looking better if he's about to go on a long ride - but again I've seen worse. 

I'd be really suprised if there wasn't something we've not been told about all of this. I'm also a bit suprised that there is a video montage all made up and ready to go.....but then I'm probably over thinking this as I'm not one for doing things like that - I know a lot of teenage girls are.

I just wonder whether either the rider or the owner or the yard owner had already had some dealings with the SSPCA and had ignored them.....? The other parties may not even have been aware?


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			The police can arrest you when they want it's is that simple they would simply say your behaviour was likely to cause a breach of the peace .
I have no idea in Scotland what the law says in paper work terms has to be given to to the keeper of a horse being removed and I suspect neither do you .
The inspector would simply lead your horse off you would attempt to stop them the police would arrest you .
		
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Well no one in their right mind would allow someone else to take possession of their horse without any paperwork being produced.

And as I said - mine would not leave the property, police in attendance or not.  The SSPCA have to prove their grounds for removal and the lack of paperwork means they are unable to supply that proof.  The police would be obliged to prevent the removal of any animal without the correct paperwork being in place.  Otherwise they are implicit in the theft of property.


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## Goldenstar (28 May 2013)

amymay said:



			Well no one in their right mind would allow someone else to take possession of their horse without any paperwork being produced.

And as I said - mine would not leave the property, police in attendance or not.
		
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It would and so would you .
My experiance ( in England) allows me to know this is what would happen , you would be in a police car and your horse would be in the RSPCA transport .


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			It would and so would you .
My experiance ( in England) allows me to know this is what would happen , you would be in a police car and your horse would be in the RSPCA transport .
		
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Doubtful.  But let's hope it's never challenged.


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## Goldenstar (28 May 2013)

amymay said:



			Doubtful.  But let's hope it's never challenged.
		
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Yes it's an academic argument .


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## HelpHumphrey (28 May 2013)

The police were there to keep the peace if we had kicked off we would have been arrested the police did say that...you don't think when you are in that position why they don't have documentation...the way the owner was treated that night was disgusting they refused his civil rights and the horses! All he wanted was a rest!


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## MillyMoomie (28 May 2013)

For the last time SPCA inspectors have powers of seizure if an animal is deemed to be suffering or likely to suffer. This horse was removed legally.

If the owner has been interviewed under caution this would tell me you should expect maybe a summons any time soon. You don't get 'charged'. The reason the horse will not be returned is that if this is going to be presented as a possible prosecution to the fiscal office ( the fact the owner has been cautioned and interviewed tell me it will) is that both the horses are now evidence and have been seized as evidence. Animals under care as evidence are looked after properly, it would be highly unlikely they would be 'in distress'.
The owner or rider, which ever has been interviewed will have to hope that the fiscal office choose not to take the prosecution. If everything you are saying is true abd you can provide evidence to back that up you will get Humphrey back.of it was me I would concentrate my efforts in that.


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## HelpHumphrey (28 May 2013)

As I said I'm not the owner...the owners concentrations are fully on that, we just want to advise the public this can happen to anyone and what there rights are..a petition will be going out for the government to investigate the sspca activities especially when they abuse someone's rights so we want awareness for that...


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## MillyMoomie (28 May 2013)

How have they abused the owners rights? How are you advising anything? 
I find the ignorance on the FB page astounding, why don't you point out on there that the SPCA didn't need a warrant?


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			why don't you point out on there that the SPCA didn't need a warrant?
		
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But they did need the support of a vet - which is why most people have concluded that the seizure was warranted.


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## MillyMoomie (28 May 2013)

A vet was in attendance with the SPCA


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			A vet was in attendance with the SPCA
		
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I know.


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## Goldenstar (28 May 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			How have they abused the owners rights? How are you advising anything? 
I find the ignorance on the FB page astounding, why don't you point out on there that the SPCA didn't need a warrant?
		
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If its decided that there is not a case to answer the owner will I imagine be entitled to attempt to recover the costs he has run up fighting for his horse back whether or not he will he wil be awarded them I dont know , I suppose it willbe down to how savvy his solicitor is in these types of cases .


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## HelpHumphrey (28 May 2013)

You clearly haven't read everything on facebook and many people have a different opinion to you as they know more about this as they live local. If you read it an independent vet has since been in since he was seized and said he isn't severe enough for a seizure to have taken place. The inspector was  overzealous that night...he had a right for another vet to come in for 2nd opinion on that night! This was refused! How has this not abused his right?


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey said:



			You clearly haven't read everything on facebook and many people have a different opinion to you as they know more about this as they live local. If you read it an independent vet has since been in since he was seized and said he isn't severe enough for a seizure to have taken place. The inspector was  overzealous that night...he had a right for another vet to come in for 2nd opinion on that night! This was refused! How has this not abused his right?
		
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The FB is a little hard to follow, to be fair.  And of course people will always have differing views (as evidenced on this thread).

I've been reading about a couple of cases this morning where horses died because the SSPCA didn't act full stop.  So there has to be some comfort to us animal lovers that in this case they have taken steps to remove an animal they deemed to be at risk (seemingly supported by the independent vet (not being severe enough for seizure can still mean an animal is at risk)).

It's also interesting that a couple of locals have also posted on here seemingly in agreement with the seizure as they know a little more of the situation than the majority of us.

So, for me - whilst I understand your distress - I'm glad that the SSPCA have taken action on a case(s) they deemed necessary.  I very much hope that the resulting investigation ends up with the best scenario for the horse(s), (whatever that might be).

All to often we slate the welfare organisations for doing sweet FA.  This time, they may just have got it right.


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## MillyMoomie (28 May 2013)

Does not matter the least what an independent vet has said except that the owner can use the vet as an expert witness. Still does not mean that the horses were not removed legally, all I have been able to see on FB is a misrepresentation of facts.


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## MillyMoomie (28 May 2013)

AmyMay what a balanced and fair argument.


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## MillyMoomie (28 May 2013)

Plus HelpHumphrey it appears that the many of the negative comments are removed (as is your right) on the FB page, so we are not sure exactly HOW many 'locals' may have a different opinion.
I agree with AmyMay, what ever is best for the horse.


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## Nancykitt (28 May 2013)

But aren't there some locals who seem to know about the situation and were against the seizure?

It would be really foolish of me to comment much more as I honestly can't get my head round this case. I do know some people who've had horses taken away and haven't kicked up any sort of fuss at all, so I don't know if that says something about the people trying to get him back?
There's clearly some sort of 'history' here and I'm not sure we'll ever know the full story.


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## hannah_N (28 May 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			You are thinking of the charity commission.
		
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I am yet to read the rest of the thread but i cannot stress enough, this is NOT true!! I am very close with the girl and her family and i know that all they want is their horse back. The SSPCA are still to come up with a reasonable, backed-up excuse as to why the horse was seized, as vets giving Humphrey the all clear cannot back up their original reasons for seizure. To say something like that in a situation like this is just disrespectful. I certainly wouldn't like to read someone saying anything like that if my horse had been taken without reason.


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## LittleMonster (28 May 2013)

Sorry i havent read the whole post (i will be)

But i think people have missed the fact that at the end of the day this horse is a TB and we have had an AWFUL winter (which is on going and no doubt been worse in scotland) so he isn't going to look absolutly great! but from what i saw he looked like an older TB enjoying his life (in the videos)

I feel awful for the girl in question who's horse has been taken away as i would be absolutely heart broken!! But the missing of paper work is what has got me?? i thought they had to give you a letter first stateing you aggree to making changes to help the horse? Hmmmm.. i think the SSPCA have questions to answer about the paper work...


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

LittleBecky said:



			But i think people have missed the fact that at the end of the day this horse is a TB and we have had an AWFUL winter (which is on going and no doubt been worse in scotland) so he isn't going to look absolutly great! but from what i saw he looked like an older TB enjoying his life (in the videos)
		
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Providing the horse has been fed and managed in accordance with what the weather is doing then there is absolutely no reason at all why this horse shouldn't look in tip top condition.

Being a TB is not an excuse for looking poor.


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

hannah_N said:



			To say something like that in a situation like this is just disrespectful. I certainly wouldn't like to read someone saying anything like that if my horse had been taken without reason.
		
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Well, thankfully Hannah this is not your horse.  The story is in the public domain so people are free to comment as they want.


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## Natch (28 May 2013)

I'm confused as to what hannah dislikes about the comment "you are thinking about the charity commission"


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

Natch said:



			I'm confused as to what hannah dislikes about the comment "you are thinking about the charity commission" 

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I think she just picked out one part of the post, but was objecting to the whole post.


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## WelshD (28 May 2013)

Perhaps I am missing something but if there are holes in the case and official paperwork is not bring produced then one solicitors letter should have some effect?


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

WelshD said:



			Perhaps I am missing something but if there are holes in the case and official paperwork is not bring produced then one solicitors letter should have some effect?
		
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Well, you'd have thought so wouldn't you??


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## Equilibrium Ireland (28 May 2013)

I'm another that can't abide by this winter excuse. I have an ex TB broodmare. In October she starting dropping weight. Upped her feed and always had free choice forage. Grass and hay. After 2 weeks with upped feed things weren't improving. Called out my vet to run tests. While there he discussed with me his mares dropping off slightly too. The goodness wasn't in the forage as in past years. So started on haylage earlier, upped to 3 meals, and added rice bran. In terms of keeping everyone at a healthy weight, this past winter was exhausting and forget my bank balance. Mine have only been on grass for 2 1/2 weeks. 5 weeks total in the sacrafice paddock with 24/7 hay and 3 feeds. In no way were my horses fat. But they were in good condition and right for going to grass. What I didn't do was throw my hands up and say well not my fault, we've had a terrible winter. No I'm not in Scotland but it sure wasn't better here. Non stop rain, mud,mud,mud, and damp cold. I had an easier time keeping weight on horses in the bad cold snowy winter. It was bright and dry for the most part. I felt as dragged down as my horses this past winter.

If Humphrey goes home then the owners really need to step up their game. No excuses. Feed for weight gain. Forage all the time. Fit and lean is much different to thin and hungry. You must learn the difference. You may need to add stomach supps for digestion. You may need to run blood tests. Thing is you don't leave stones unturned. And you don't blame bad weather.

Terri


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## Girlracer (28 May 2013)

So frustrating to keep reading 'Scotland had a hard winter', 'oh he's a ageing thoroughbred'... Absolutely rubbish, absolutely no excuse!


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## Flicker51 (28 May 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			I'm another that can't abide by this winter excuse. I have an ex TB broodmare. In October she starting dropping weight. Upped her feed and always had free choice forage. Grass and hay. After 2 weeks with upped feed things weren't improving. Called out my vet to run tests. While there he discussed with me his mares dropping off slightly too. The goodness wasn't in the forage as in past years. So started on haylage earlier, upped to 3 meals, and added rice bran. In terms of keeping everyone at a healthy weight, this past winter was exhausting and forget my bank balance. Mine have only been on grass for 2 1/2 weeks. 5 weeks total in the sacrafice paddock with 24/7 hay and 3 feeds. In no way were my horses fat. But they were in good condition and right for going to grass. What I didn't do was throw my hands up and say well not my fault, we've had a terrible winter. No I'm not in Scotland but it sure wasn't better here. Non stop rain, mud,mud,mud, and damp cold. I had an easier time keeping weight on horses in the bad cold snowy winter. It was bright and dry for the most part. I felt as dragged down as my horses this past winter.

If Humphrey goes home then the owners really need to step up their game. No excuses. Feed for weight gain. Forage all the time. Fit and lean is much different to thin and hungry. You must learn the difference. You may need to add stomach supps for digestion. You may need to run blood tests. Thing is you don't leave stones unturned. And you don't blame bad weather.

Terri
		
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I completely agree with you Terri. Well put !


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## asbo (28 May 2013)

I am not far from where Humphrey was kept, yes, we have had a really rubbish winter, its been so wet 24/7, good quality hay and haylage has been hard to get hold of this year, feed prices have gone up, grass has only just started growing etc etc.

My big lad is nomally a poor doer but hes actually came out of this winter well covered and looking pretty good, it has cost me a fortune this winter, for a 16.2hh retired IDXTB and a Welsh Sec A I was spending between £220-£250 per month on haylage and hard feed for them.


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## doriangrey (28 May 2013)

Blaming a bad winter for a horse's condition doesn't make sense.  If that were so, every horse in Britain and Ireland would be a welfare case this year!


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## Xtra (28 May 2013)

I don't really understand the story so won't comment on that.

But I live in Scotland and own a 21 yr old stressy TB mare and have had no problem with her weight this winter.  I only keep her in light work over winter to allow for this though


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## Pearlsasinger (28 May 2013)

amymay said:



			All to often we slate the welfare organisations for doing sweet FA.  This time, they may just have got it right.
		
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Although earlier in the thread, you repeatedly said, very strongly, that you wouldn't have let them take the horse if it had been yours!  You certainly seem to have have changed your mind.

It absolutely amazes me that various people on this thread have called both SSPCA and RSPCA 'authorities'.  They are *not* authorities, they are charities with no more authority than me.  The police who sometimes accompany their 'inspectors' have the authority to remove animals if a vet deems it necessary.  And as for this 'interview under caution' farce, no-one needs to give a charity an interview.


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## OAP65 (28 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey said:



			Ok here goes....there have been a few false accusations on here, no horses from that yard were hacked there or back, please get your facts correct before making theses statements. I am not the owner due to legal reasons he can not comment but everyone that witnessed this seizure can...no documention was produced that night or to this day! Owner was interviewed under caution but wasn't charged for anything and still hasn't...vet reports have been produced to say this horse was not emciated what so ever so choose what you believe with that. He was seized due to lameness which a spiteful person who the owner knows of and is a pathetic excuse for man reported him to be lame before the ride started just because he holds a grudge with the owner for leaving his yard 3 years ago, many witnesses and videos say otherwise and I'm sure the marshals would have noticed and asked the horse to be pulled out of the ride? You are all more than welcome to your opinions and if you believe hes emciated so be it but qualified vets say otherwise....yes he doesn't look great when being seized, he's just done 5 hour common ride been loaded which took 40mins due to another lorry almost hitting him then to get home and then to be put through the whole process again with a severe heart murmur?? The murmur has now been deemed minor so was only elevated due to the stress from almost being hit by a lorry....people are saying there must be more to this story...there isn't this is why everyone is so outraged and gone public with it all
		
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 "*no horses from that yard were hacked there or back*"
How do you explain then that he was seen hacking to the Common Ride. That person's first reaction was one of concern at the sight of Humphrey being to underweight. Also you cant blame someone else for the fact that SSPCA seized Humphrey, the only person holding a grudge is the owner, and the only person(s) responsible for the state of Humphrey is the owner/loaner.


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Although earlier in the thread, you repeatedly said, very strongly, that you wouldn't have let them take the horse if it had been yours!  You certainly seem to have have changed your mind..
		
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No, what I was saying was that they wouldn't have taken it without the relevant paperwork to do so.  Someone quite simply would not walk on to my yard and take any animal of mine without paperwork backing up the seizure.

This was merely in response to the FB site where they say that no reason was given for the seizure, no paperwork presented and the refusal of the SSPCA to correctly identify themselves.  They could therefore have been handing over their horse to anyone.


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## MillyMoomie (28 May 2013)

Pearlsasinger you are wrong. As I have stated time and time again on this thread the SPCA inspectors have powers of entry, search and seizure. They then report to the crown fiscal office. Authoritative they are.
You are correct the RSPCA have no more powers than a member of public, but if would be very foolish indeed to say 'interview under caution farce', a member of public can take a private prosecution, so can a organisation. You are right someone can refuse to be interviewed, BUT all you are doing is refusing your chance to state your actions and defend yourself in accordance with PACE. The whole point of a caution is to tell the person being interviewed that they are suspected of an offense and now is the time to give their story,they have a right to remain silent, but anything that they do not say now given the opportunity and then say in court and rely upon may harm their defense. Here is the legal explanation of the caution.
'You have the right to say absolutely nothing. But if you later rely on something in court, such as an innocent explanation which you haven't told us about when asked, the court may draw its own conclusions if it thinks you should have me ruined it earlier. Anything you so say may be given in evidence.'

The only difference is that a caution the RSPCA gives is not considered a police caution and therefore does not go on record. It is merely explaining a persons rights and being clear that a offense is suspected. To refuse an interview is cutting off your own nose.


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## Countrychic (28 May 2013)

After watching the videos I agree that the horse isn't in the worst condition but he is far from the best. To my eye there was a few times on the videos I thought he looked lame so I can see why it's been mentioned.

The girl clearly loves the horse and I enjoyed watching how much fun she was having with the horse, it reminded me of bombing round as a teenager. What I would say to the owners is you have a duty of care when you own an animal. Love isn't enough, if it was my bank balance would look very different! Owning a horse involves going without yourself so they have enough, missing out on shows or rides because they don't feel quite right or they are a bit lean, slowing their workload when they start to struggle and having the courage to make the final hardest decision.
I think now rather than fighting and using silly arguments such as the weaving grill you need to have a good hard look at where you did go wrong and try and work with them to assure them you have learned and will make the correct decisions going forward. Bringing up things like he has a grill up that he didn't have at home or that it took 5 people to load him seems petty and childish and TBH doesnt really make any sense. 
I hope you get him back but I hope you've learned and make better decisions in the future


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## HBB (28 May 2013)

The Scottish SPCA is, uniquely, a specialist reporting agency to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service. This enables it to lay reports for prosecutions, given there is no effective system of private prosecution in Scotland. This power is coupled with the designation of the Scottish SPCA's inspectors under section 49(2)(a) of the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006, which enables SSPCA Inspectors to exercise powers of entry, search, seizure and issue of binding notices under the Act, such as "care notices". The Scottish SPCA is the only animal welfare organisation in Great Britain to have such powers
		
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MillyMoomie, you must be sick fed up having to repeat yourself


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## Natch (28 May 2013)

It might not be acceptable to allow a horse to become underweight under any old circumstances, but it is a fact that aged horses can struggle to maintain weight, tbs have a tendency to lose weight quicker than native breeds and horses in inclement weather conditions use more calories to survive. If I was a vet presented with an aged tb in early spring with a low body condition score,  I would want to be satisfied that the owner had done everything in their power to prevent/rectify the weight loss, before I decided if the horse needed to be removed due to welfare issues related to it's weight and the management of it. 

I can't access the videos but in generic terms if I was concerned about the weight of my horse and doing everything to address it,  I'm not sure I would take my horse on a ride that would use a lot of calories.


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## Goldenstar (28 May 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			Pearlsasinger you are wrong. As I have stated time and time again on this thread the SPCA inspectors have powers of entry, search and seizure. They then report to the crown fiscal office. Authoritative they are.
You are correct the RSPCA have no more powers than a member of public, but if would be very foolish indeed to say 'interview under caution farce', a member of public can take a private prosecution, so can a organisation. You are right someone can refuse to be interviewed, BUT all you are doing is refusing your chance to state your actions and defend yourself in accordance with PACE. The whole point of a caution is to tell the person being interviewed that they are suspected of an offense and now is the time to give their story,they have a right to remain silent, but anything that they do not say now given the opportunity and then say in court and rely upon may harm their defense. Here is the legal explanation of the caution.
'You have the right to say absolutely nothing. But if you later rely on something in court, such as an innocent explanation which you haven't told us about when asked, the court may draw its own conclusions if it thinks you should have me ruined it earlier. Anything you so say may be given in evidence.'

The only difference is that a caution the RSPCA gives is not considered a police caution and therefore does not go on record. It is merely explaining a persons rights and being clear that a offense is suspected. To refuse an interview is cutting off your own nose.
		
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In Scotland things are different .
But in England it's always struck me as a grey area if someone got to court and said I choose not to speak to the RSPCA they can't make me talk to them they are just MOP like everyone esle I have never been convinced that this could used as an admission of anything.
However the RSPCA will interview in the presence of police officers sometimes and I always wondered why .
In England the whole thing is a mess why a charity has assumed the roll of the police in these matters is beyond me.


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

Natch said:



			It might not be acceptable to allow a horse to become underweight under any old circumstances, but it is a fact that aged horses can struggle to maintain weight, tbs have a tendency to lose weight quicker than native breeds and horses in inclement weather conditions use more calories to survive. If I was a vet presented with an aged tb in early spring with a low body condition score,  I would want to be satisfied that the owner had done everything in their power to prevent/rectify the weight loss, before I decided if the horse needed to be removed due to welfare issues related to it's weight and the management of it. 

I can't access the videos but in generic terms if I was concerned about the weight of my horse and doing everything to address it,  I'm not sure I would take my horse on a ride that would use a lot of calories.
		
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I think you've made a very valid point, Natch.

Excellent post all round.


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## OAP65 (28 May 2013)

blackbess said:



			MillyMoomie, you must be sick fed up having to repeat yourself 

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Exactly, I have posted that this horse was SEEN hacking to the Common Ride, so HH is mistaken in saying that Humphrey wasnt hacked first. I am local and I know who I believe and who I dont.


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## MillyMoomie (28 May 2013)

Blackbess yes I am !!! 

Goldenstar- fair point. Even though it is clear that an interview is the defendants opportunity to state their actions ( or lack of!) a person can still refuse a RSPCA inspector. The inspector would still be able to use the fact that the person has refused their right to interview as evidence. 
Unless the offense was serious enough to arrest the person, in which obviously the person would then have no choice otherwise the interview is attended by the choice of the person only. 
A complicated interview will be deemed to be better to take place at a police station and sometimes a police officer will be invited to sit in. 
As long as everything is in accordance with PACE it doesn't really matter.


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## HBB (28 May 2013)

OAP65, I am glad you and Kalibear have spoken out to what you have witnessed regarding this horse. At least your comments can be seen and read unlike there FB page which aggressively attacks anyone who doesn't agree with them, then deletes their comment. The FB page is an utter disgrace.


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## Goldenstar (28 May 2013)

Natch said:



			It might not be acceptable to allow a horse to become underweight under any old circumstances, but it is a fact that aged horses can struggle to maintain weight, tbs have a tendency to lose weight quicker than native breeds and horses in inclement weather conditions use more calories to survive. If I was a vet presented with an aged tb in early spring with a low body condition score,  I would want to be satisfied that the owner had done everything in their power to prevent/rectify the weight loss, before I decided if the horse needed to be removed due to welfare issues related to it's weight and the management of it. 

I can't access the videos but in generic terms if I was concerned about the weight of my horse and doing everything to address it,  I'm not sure I would take my horse on a ride that would use a lot of calories.
		
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I think this is the nub of the matter I would be amazed if the horse was thin enough to be a case based on its wieght alone but was it providing reasonable care to expect to do what it had done.
It's still strange that a horse is removed In my experiance in the first interaction between a welfare charity and a private owner a lot of effort is usually made to rectify things on the ground .
IME charity's are usually under fire for trying to long with poor owners not being trigger happy .


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## asbo (28 May 2013)

I know someone who had been reported time and time again, SSPCA came out, said feet needed done/ponies needed fed etc etc, even checked mine as in the same field at the time. Nothing ever done, then last yr/this yr she handed some of them in to the SSPCA and kept 2, I think 3 got PTS, she has this month been given a 5 yr ban, the ponies had been getting reported since 2009!


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## OAP65 (28 May 2013)

blackbess said:



			OAP65, I am glad you and Kalibear have spoken out to what you have witnessed regarding this horse. At least your comments can be seen and read unlike there FB page which aggressively attacks anyone who doesn't agree with them, then deletes their comment. The FB page is an utter disgrace.
		
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I havent posted on the FB page because its quite pointless, they would just delete anything they didnt want to see. I have no objection to anyone putting their point forward or complaining if something is wrong, but HH seem to be whipping up hysteria and . The amount of people/SSPCA bashing isnt doing their cause any good. They forget that a lot of people know everyone concerned and they will form their own opinions on who is right and who is wrong.


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## HelpHumphrey (28 May 2013)

No comments have been deleted by the admin of HH page if comments have been deleted its been by the person who put it. We are not interested in debating with people who aren't interested in the help humphrey campaign! Just don't read it if you don't like it. 1000 odd other people disagree with you!


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## Jenni_ (28 May 2013)

I agree they maybe shouldn't have taken him on the ride, but if I'd seen that TB I'd have thought 'God he's looking on the lean side, I'd be feeding that up' Not taking it off them straight away.

People know how quick TB's CAN lose condition. We had a false spring and then the snow came back. That + perhaps novice owners/loaners could have contributed to his very lean appearance. 

I know that you are all saying 'Oh hard winters shouldn't be an excuse' but unless you've been up hear battling it like we have, with a lot of our winter spent thigh deep in snow, you can't really comment. I've got a friend who couldn't win. TB who normally winters out just took it very bad this year. Wouldn't eat the haylege in the field. She tried keeping him in but he just stressed. No matter what she did, what food she pumped into him, the weight just wouldn't stay on. He just struggled this year, having never struggled before. Wasn't ghastly, but you would definitely want more meat on him. 

We've been up and down, horses starting to lose their coats only for it to snow again, horses spending a week out in rainsheets for the hailstones and frost to come back. 

Grass is coming through great now after a few warm days and some rain. I bet that horse would have started to fill out over the past week if he'd been left.


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey said:



			No comments have been deleted by the admin of HH page if comments have been deleted its been by the person who put it. We are not interested in debating with people who aren't interested in the help humphrey campaign! Just don't read it if you don't like it. 1000 odd other people disagree with you!
		
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That's a shame.  Because it's attitudes like that that often give arise to suspicion.  And debate is always useful, even if people have opinions that differ from the original viewpoint.

1000 'likes' don't mean that people are necessarily in agreement with you.  But are generally interested in the situation.


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## OAP65 (28 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey said:



			No comments have been deleted by the admin of HH page if comments have been deleted its been by the person who put it. We are not interested in debating with people who aren't interested in the help humphrey campaign! Just don't read it if you don't like it. 1000 odd other people disagree with you!
		
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A lot of the people who have "liked" and posted on your page have absolutely no idea of what is really going on, they feel sorry for the girl after watching the fluffy video. I will stand by my own FACTS, Humphrey was hacked to the Common Ride, Humphrey was in no condition to take on such a hard ride, and if people complained to the SSPCA then they did what was right in the interest of Humphrey's welfare.


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## HelpHumphrey (28 May 2013)

I'm not even the owner so you can be suspicous about me all you want, I'm just not intertesed in wasting my time debating with someone who isn't interested in hearing the truth.


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey said:



			I'm not even the owner so you can be suspicous about me all you want, I'm just not intertesed in wasting my time debating with someone who isn't interested in hearing the truth.
		
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I bet the owner is very happy to have you representing them with an attitude like that.........


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## OWLIE185 (28 May 2013)

I am still very much surprised that the SSPCA have failed to date to make a public announcement about this case - even if it has to take account of the confines of a potential legal action being taken.

I would suggest that the rider who is a young girl can not be expected to be completely experienced in horse management and that she is an innocent party in this matter

I would be interested to learn if the owner of the horse had had any previous encounters with any equine welfare charities which had already put this horse under the welfare spotlight?

I know nothing of the common ride but is it literally a 6 mile pleasure ride carried out at a full gallop or is it a mixture of walk, trot, cater and gallop?

Many horses will come out of Winter looking under weight but again there is underweight and life threatening underweight and unfit and very unfit.  In addition many horses loose weight again in early Spring when their coat is changing from a Winter to a Summer coat.

I do not know how fit the horse was kept over the Winter but I would suggest that this horse is clearly loved and regularly ridden by the rider if not also by the owner. 

Something has gone wrong here but I am not impressed by how the charity concerned has handled this situation by attempting to instantly remove the horse in the presence of this young girl after she has just ridden it.  It makes the young girl look accountable for something that she probably knew nothing of.

The charity concerned should hand their head in shame in the manner they have dealt with this matter and discipline the members of their staff concerned.


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

OWLIE185 said:



			I am still very much surprised that the SSPCA have failed to date to make a public announcement about this case.
		
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Why would or should they?

Although they have actually made a comment in the press.


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## LadyGascoyne (28 May 2013)

Whilst there might be more to this story, it may be that the concern over Humphrey's care was increased by the link to the bay mare, who by all accounts was in a shocking condition. 

Perhaps the SPCA have over-reacted but this may be a decision to err on the side of caution when there is a second horse involved at the same yard which is in a very bad way. Whilst I'm sure it must be distressing for the owners, who are clearly distancing themselves from the bay horse, sometimes the whole picture needs to be looked at. I would be concerned for the welfare of a "lean" horse from the same yard as one which has already deteriorated. It is better to be too careful when an animal's welfare is at stake and I am sure that Humphrey's life is not in imminent danger at the SPCA yard. 

It may be that once all the evidence is in, they SPCA will find no link between the horses and the horse will be returned to it's stable with advice to up the feed and check teeth. I can only hope that this is the case and the girl, who seems to adore her horse, can ensure that he puts on condition in the future.

This being said, a Facebook post yesterday states 

"people have suggested getting a solicitor, legal aid will not cover the owner till they are charged..."

If I should ever find myself in a position where my horse has been involved in such a situation, I would get legal advice immediately regardless of the cost. 

To all involved: It is vital that you are aware of your rights and the rights of the SPCA. I am aware that it costs money but no more so than vet fees for an injury- and this is a situation where your horse's welfare is at stake. If you cannot afford this, then you seriously need to consider whether you can afford to keep a horse.


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## glamourpuss (28 May 2013)

Oh FFS a lean old horse after a harsh winter is not a problem if measures are being put in place to rectify the issue.

A thin, old horse after a harsh winter being taken on a 5 hour fast ride is suggestive that his basic care needs are not being met which IS a welfare issue.

I have a TB who can drop weight easily....& trust me winter hasn't been a barrel of laughs here. Hence why his eventing season is starting late so I can be sure he is in optimal condition for the work I'm asking if him....simple, no?

And I will repeat what I posted earlier the SSPCA didn't just chance upon Humphrey, somebody reported him for his condition and/or how he was being treated. This speaks volumes.


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## Kallibear (28 May 2013)

For what I know first hand:

I do not know if Humphrey hacked there or home as I didn't see. I know the emaciated bay mare from the same yard, and the very unfit lean coloured cob, did as the riders told us they had/were! It's a 2hr walk. 

Humphrey wasn't worryingly thin, just very lean and unmuscled. He cantered, pranced, plunged and reared for almost the entire ride and got himself into a complete state. He should have been taken home near the beginning when it became obvious how stressed he was. However it's not uncommon for riders to make the wrong decision on a ride like that. I don't think it requires SSPCA removal though so there is something else.going on, probably linked to the bay mare. 

Also bear in mind this 'girl who loves him' in the videos is not the owner. He is not her responsibility (she's still a child) and the horse has been removed from the OWNER and would be returned to him, if  he is. He is owned by the Yard Owner, the same person who told the novice on the bay that 'the ride would help build muscle'.


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## glamourpuss (28 May 2013)

Oh & I do have to agree with Lady Gasgoine I think the main crux on this case might be the other horse.


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## glamourpuss (28 May 2013)

Kallibear your post is very enlightening. 

So there is 1 very emaciated horse taken on a hard ride.
1 'lean' horse taken on a hard ride where he behaves in a very stressed manner.
Both on the same yard. 
I'm actually starting to think the SSPCA made the right call TBH


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

Kallibear said:



			He is owned by the Yard Owner, the same person who told the novice on the bay that 'the ride would help build muscle'.
		
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Does he also own the coloured as well??


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## LittleMonster (28 May 2013)

Can i recap? ( i think its coming togethor...)

- The girl in the videos's mum doesn't own the horse?
- The owner of the horse is the yard owner who is also the owner of a horse that was in a very bad state?
- Both been taken away?

Why can't the girl wait and ask to have him re homed to her and they can give her the advice needed (if the above is correct)???


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

LittleBecky said:



			Can i recap? ( i think its coming togethor...)

- The girl in the videos's mum doesn't own the horse?
- The owner of the horse is the yard owner who is also the owner of a horse that was in a very bad state?
- Both been taken away?
		
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Yes, that's right.




			Why can't the girl wait and ask to have him re homed to her and they can give her the advice needed???
		
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This may have been suggested, I don't know.  But as the horses have been seized, I expect the process has to now run its course.


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## Kallibear (28 May 2013)

I don't think as as it's not his 'type' of horse. It was in a good lean condition for a cob (ie not fat) but very hairy and unfit.


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## Kallibear (28 May 2013)

I don't know if the emaciated bay mare and Humphrey are owned by the same people. The mare maybe owned by the YO's girlfriend (I know she has a bay mare TB). I do know the novice girl on the emaciated bay was advised by the YO that she's be fine to go, as she told us that.


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## HBB (28 May 2013)

From the "Help Humphrey" FB page:




			it appears the horse and hounds forum has been hijacked by an aggressive bunch trying to discredit the Help Humphrey campaign - why so aggressive/defensive? perhaps they're afraid?

Says an awful lot more about themselves than those they're attempting to rubbish - no matter, those who know the truth are the honest, ordinary people who have the intelligence to make up their own minds after viewing the video taken the day he was 'forcibly moved' by the SSPCA - well done Allana for having the foresight to parade proudly around that weekend having the video rolling.......don't let these frightened scumbags wear you all down - fight for justice, we're all behind you and growing in numbers daily.
		
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Frightened scumbags???


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## LittleMonster (28 May 2013)

Thank you for the re-cap, but she doesn't own the horse... so maybe all this protesting from her is pointless anyway....


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

Oh dear............


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## OAP65 (28 May 2013)

blackbess said:



			From the "Help Humphrey" FB page:



Frightened scumbags??? 

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 I am terrified!


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

OAP65 said:



 I am terrified!
		
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## asbo (28 May 2013)

Really do not think alot of the people on FB are doing any faviours towards getting the horse home....


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## LadyGascoyne (28 May 2013)

I do not think anyone here wants to see a healthy, happy horse illegitimately removed from the possession of a young girl and the lawful and responsible ownership of her mother. The situation described on Facebook and the video would indeed be distressing

Unfortunately no one has managed to prove that;

The horse is healthy
The removal was illegitimate
The animal is under the lawful ownership of the mother and daughter, as portrayed by the page
The owner of the animal, irrelevant of their identity, is acting in a responsible manner to recover the horse

Once this is proven, you will have me as your most adamant supporter. Until then, my sympathies are with the young girl and the horse, neither of whom deserve to be embroiled in such a mess.


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## asbo (28 May 2013)

LadyGascoyne said:



			I do not think anyone here wants to see a healthy, happy horse illegitimately removed from the possession of a young girl and the lawful and responsible ownership of her mother. The situation described on Facebook and the video would indeed be distressing

Unfortunately no one has managed to prove that;

The horse is healthy
The removal was illegitimate
The animal is under the lawful ownership of the mother and daughter, as portrayed by the page
The owner of the animal, irrelevant of their identity, is acting in a responsible manner to recover the horse

Once this is proven, you will have me as your most adamant supporter. Until then, my sympathies are with the young girl and the horse, neither of whom deserve to be embroiled in such a mess.
		
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Horse is owned by a man, not the girl riding.


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## LadyGascoyne (28 May 2013)

asbo said:



			Horse is owned by a man, not the girl riding.
		
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I apologise, I felt that the Facebook page seemed to link the ownership of the horse to the girl; my mistake.

I see that according to thescotsman.com, link on the Help Humphrey Facebook page, the horse actually belongs to a 36 year old man.


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## Kallibear (28 May 2013)

Humphrey is owned by the YO. The girl will most likely be leasing him (at the YO's yard) in the american style where they pay a certain amount each month to cover his 'lease'


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## undergroundoli (28 May 2013)

OAP65 said:



			Exactly, I have posted that this horse was SEEN hacking to the Common Ride, so HH is mistaken in saying that Humphrey wasnt hacked first. I am local and I know who I believe and who I dont.
		
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I dont understand how this fits in with the vids of him being loaded? I also thought the girl refused to unload him, which I also cant reconcile with hacking to the meet?

eagerly anticipating enlightenment from you or HH


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## ester (28 May 2013)

I don't think its implausible that they hacked to the meet and someone came to pick them up and take them home.


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

I think that's what happened ester.


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## MillyMoomie (28 May 2013)

'Honest, ordinary people who have the INTELLIGENCE...' 

Have not read a single intelligent comment on the FB page yet....


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## HelpHumphrey (28 May 2013)

Owner does not own any other horse that was on that ride. Him and his partner have three other horses who never even got looked at by the inspector! These horses are in prime condition! The inspector was only interested in the TB. The bay and cob are owned by different people. The ride was suppsose to be a nice day out they had heard it was a quiet common ride mainly walking and the odd canter, this turned out not to be the case, it is hard not to allow a horse to go with the herd so they did have to keep up with the canters when it was done on hardcore paths, does this mean owner deserved to have their horse taken! The people that know them don't think so, they are not malicious people out to see their animals suffer! We understand not all the evidence is available to the public so yes we expect negativity...


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## WelshD (28 May 2013)

I'm sorry but the 'herd' comment is rubbish - the rider could (and perhaps should) have stopped the ride at any time. if they couldnt control the horse enough to stop it and turn for home then they shouldnt have been there. Better judgement was needed but for one reason or another (probably having too much fun) it wasnt used

But I digress......

You are right in what you say that what happened on that particular day wasnt enough to take the horse but unfortunately without all the details surrounding the whole situation its hard for people to say whether the actual removal of the horse was justified or not


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## Patterdale (28 May 2013)

This is reminding me of the whole CD Facebook saga.....


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## Kallibear (28 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey said:



			The ride was suppsose to be a nice day out they had heard it was a quiet common ride mainly walking and the odd canter, this turned out not to be the case, it is hard not to allow a horse to go with the herd so they did have to keep up with the canters when it was done on hardcore paths, does this mean owner deserved to have their horse taken!
		
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That is untrue. The owner has been involved in many common rides before and knew exactly what this one involved, having ridden it before. It is more sedate than some but still includes a lot of hill cantering and galloping up extremely steep long slopes. The owner knew that but still told the girl on the bay mare it'd be fine, and allowed his poor-condition horse to go The chestnut got itself into a complete state the second we set off and should have been retired early. And if I remember correctly, Humphrey has been on rides before and behaved the same so it was known how he'd act. 

However I'd agree that removing the horse based solely on that is over-zealous but I believe there is more going on.


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## HelpHumphrey (28 May 2013)

I didn't mean she couldn't control him just meant its not easy to pull out from these rides and she didn't think she needed to


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## OAP65 (28 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey said:



			Owner does not own any other horse that was on that ride. Him and his partner have three other horses who never even got looked at by the inspector! These horses are in prime condition! The inspector was only interested in the TB. The bay and cob are owned by different people. The ride was suppsose to be a nice day out they had heard it was a quiet common ride mainly walking and the odd canter, this turned out not to be the case, it is hard not to allow a horse to go with the herd so they did have to keep up with the canters when it was done on hardcore paths, does this mean owner deserved to have their horse taken! The people that know them don't think so, they are not malicious people out to see their animals suffer! We understand not all the evidence is available to the public so yes we expect negativity...
		
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Have to disagree again HH. You said "The ride was suppsose to be a nice day out they had heard it was a quiet common ride mainly walking and the odd canter" Anyone who knows the ride knows it is classed as a "novice" Rideout, and there is a lot of walk/trot on roads but there are several good fast canters/gallops up and over the hills. Some riders took the shortcut which misses out the hill ride, and takes in nice level tracks which leads to the lunch stop, so rider didnt have to follow the herd up the hills, she could have followed some of the others who took the shortcut.

Having said this and looking at all my other posts, I am not getting at you personally, it is in the end the responsibility of the owner to have Humphrey's best interests at heart and not to have his horse doing something it is clearly not fit enough to do.


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

Oh Patterdale, how right you are!!


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## Horse* (28 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey said:



			These horses are in prime condition!
		
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I hadn't really taken a side before I saw that, I'm sorry but I don't think they can be described as being in prime condition.


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## ester (28 May 2013)

I thought the same Patterdale, I don't think a facebook gang is very often truely helpful to someone's cause!


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## Goldenstar (28 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey said:



			No comments have been deleted by the admin of HH page if comments have been deleted its been by the person who put it. We are not interested in debating with people who aren't interested in the help humphrey campaign! Just don't read it if you don't like it. 1000 odd other people disagree with you!
		
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Ok I had degree of sympathy with the owner of this horse if seemed heavy handed to me however this attitude has made this sympathy completely evaporate .


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## HelpHumphrey (28 May 2013)

Horse* said:



			I hadn't really taken a side before I saw that, I'm sorry but I don't think they can be described as being in prime condition.
		
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I meant the other horses in the owners care, why would he neglect one and not the other 3 in his care!


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## AmiRobertson (28 May 2013)

My tb mare came out of winter looking similar to Humphrey but after a couple of weeks out and a change of diet she is looking much much better my friends tb also was looking on the lean side before the spring grass but she has muscle from working over winter unlike mine who has been off. I most definitely would not take dizzy on that long a pleasure ride the way she was looking a few weeks ago and I probably wouldn't even take her now not until she has some muscle and her fitness is up. My friend has taken hers on one and she struggled a bit but they had a good time. Again it's down to riders discretion but the young girl who loans Humphrey probably doesn't have the knowledge to know any better but everyone is different and treats their horses differently. I don't think there was really grounds for him to be seized unless there is something else going on with either the charity or the owners which in my opinion means there is more to this story than what is being told. 
Also if dizzy was ever taken from me and believed it done unfairly I would of had a solicitor on it by now regardless of cost. 

I hope whatever happens to Humphrey he is happy and well cared for.


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## ester (28 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey said:



			I meant the other horses in the owners care, why would he neglect one and not the other 3 in his care!
		
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because the others were easier/cheaper to keep weight on? I don't think that argument stands at all I'm afraid.


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## TeddyBean (29 May 2013)

Another thing I've noticed here: HH says in several posts that Humphrey was reported by somebody who had some kind of supposed issue with his owner... so what about the other horses? How did they get involved? They are supposedly owned by different people, so how did the SSPCA come to be seizing them too?
I don't know, theres just so much here which doesn't seem to be adding up...

The more that HH says and the more I read, the more it seems that the SSPCA may have done the right thing here.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense, my brain seems to be shutting down for the night


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## Moomin1 (29 May 2013)

HelpHumphrey said:



			I meant the other horses in the owners care, why would he neglect one and not the other 3 in his care!
		
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Why do hundreds of people neglect one and not the others in their care?

If you can find the answer to this one, please can I be the first to know, because I see this scenario almost daily.

This whole thread makes me chuckle (not for the sake of Humphrey, but because it is soooooooooo common for this type of reaction from aggrieved owners when their animals are removed).  Half a story given to public, the sob story pictures and video footage....the 'love' they have for that animal (which they have neglected).

Yawn.....


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## TeddyBean (29 May 2013)

Humphrey looking in pretty good nick here, looks like it was taken in spring/summer so assuming last year? 






https://www.facebook.com/?ref=tn_tn...943179.-2207520000.1369783676.&type=3&theater

And then this, taken on the day he was siezed... quite a noticable difference there!






https://www.facebook.com/?ref=tn_tn...943179.-2207520000.1369783676.&type=3&theater

These photos were taken from the HH facebook page.

Also he has a bandaged back leg in most of the photos, including on the siezure day ride. Seems to be an ongoing issue, suggests to me that he shouldn't be in heavy work like galloping up steep hills for 5 hours...


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## babymare (29 May 2013)

I have been reading this with interest. many years ago i worked for a well known horse welfare charity. we did not go in on a whim to remove horses. we tried other methods before removal unless the situation was so bad. It benefited no one to remove healthy animals. often we would have multiple animals come in. some would be better condition than others but all removed. im sorry thete is more to this than whats being said.


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## galaxy (29 May 2013)

This comment has been published from the Scottish Animal Welfare:


We, like many, do not support nor condone the actions of The Scottish SPCA in relation to Humphrey.

Members of the public must understand that when the an employee of The Scottish SPCA knocks on your door, you are not obliged to allow them access to your property unless, they witness beforehand, an animal in suffering or they have in their possession a warrant issued by a Scottish Court.

If you find yourself at the hands of a member of staff from the aforementioned organisation, remember, you have the right to no comment, you have the right to have your solicitor present during interview and more importantly, you must be offered the right to have your own veterinary surgeon attend!

Should anyone wish any further information and or assistance, we would urge them to contact Scottish Animal Welfare.

We are a registered not for profit organisation that covers the whole of Scotland. We are dedicated to the rehabilitation and rehoming of injured, abandoned and unwanted animals. We have an Equine & Livestock support unit that exists exclusively to assist horse owners and farmers should they require.

Scottish Animal Welfare
 scottishanimalwelfare.org.uk
 03000 999 000


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## Tern (29 May 2013)

@HelpHumphrey, am i being darn stupid or do you keep talking like your not the owner of Humphrey, *'The owner wasn't aware'* - If you own him surely it should be *'I wasn't aware' ??*


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## touchstone (29 May 2013)

The pertinent point in the above post is "you are not obliged to allow them access to your property unless, they witness beforehand, an animal in suffering"

They could argue that the animal in question, being undeniably thin, and having soundness issues questioned, could be caused suffering by being ridden hard for so many hours, and there may well be other issues that nobody outside the direct involvement of the case is aware of.

I am afraid for me it is a case that is best sorted in the courts. None of us have enough information to say whether the horse warranted seizure and if the bay mare was is such a state and has the same owner then seizure sounds like a positive step until all the facts are established.


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## galaxy (29 May 2013)

touchstone said:



			The pertinent point in the above post is "you are not obliged to allow them access to your property unless, they witness beforehand, an animal in suffering"

They could argue that the animal in question, being undeniably thin, and having soundness issues questioned, could be caused suffering by being ridden hard for so many hours, and there may well be other issues that nobody outside the direct involvement of the case is aware of.
.
		
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That was the part I noted too.  Because they witnessed the horse at the fun ride therefore they did have the right to enter the premises without a warrant....


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## asbo (29 May 2013)

CobbyHoofs said:



			@HelpHumphrey, am i being darn stupid or do you keep talking like your not the owner of Humphrey, *'The owner wasn't aware'* - If you own him surely it should be *'I wasn't aware' ??*

Click to expand...

They arent the owner.


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## Tern (29 May 2013)

asbo said:



			They arent the owner.
		
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Who are they then??


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## Amymay (29 May 2013)

CobbyHoofs said:



			Who are they then??
		
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No idea.


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## asbo (29 May 2013)

CobbyHoofs said:



			Who are they then??
		
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No idea.


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## Kallibear (29 May 2013)

Not sure who they are. Guessing they're either the young loaner or a friend of hers. Poss the partner of the owner as they don't read like a child.


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## Tern (29 May 2013)

Mm okay, fair enough  Aslong as it's not one of 'em fake accounts it's all good


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## Amymay (29 May 2013)

CobbyHoofs said:



			Mm okay, fair enough  Aslong as it's not one of 'em fake accounts it's all good 

Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean by 'fake' account.  But they have as much right to post as anyone else.


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## lilhobbit (29 May 2013)

Ive just been reading threw this. I for one am glad that Humphrey has been removed. I no an old owner of his that previously rescued him from an awful state and from what i have heard/no about his current owners its not something he should have to go through again.


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## FfionWinnie (29 May 2013)

Jenni_ said:



			I know that you are all saying 'Oh hard winters shouldn't be an excuse' but unless you've been up hear battling it like we have, with a lot of our winter spent thigh deep in snow, you can't really comment. I've got a friend who couldn't win. TB who normally winters out just took it very bad this year. Wouldn't eat the haylege in the field. She tried keeping him in but he just stressed. No matter what she did, what food she pumped into him, the weight just wouldn't stay on. He just struggled this year, having never struggled before. Wasn't ghastly, but you would definitely want more meat on him.
		
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I totally agree. I'm afraid unless you lived though the last winter in Scotland you have no idea what our stock have been through.  Not just horses but everything is lean, despite being fed heavily.  Last summer was horrendous too and the hay up here is poor.  Large agri merchants even ran short on feed at times - there was no sugar beet pulp available to buy in the three biggest shops near me for many weeks!  The feed has been pumped in, but there's not much to show for it.  There is still a lack of grass here too. If there is stock on it, its not keeping up with them. My Shetland is the only one who has easily maintained condition, but then Shetlands are bred to survive constant wind and rain!  He has also been rugged heavily all winter.  

Yes the horse looks a bit poor. But he can't have been that poor if he cantered sideways as described by Kalibear for 5 hours...!


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## FestiveFuzz (29 May 2013)

Just been reading the article on the Scotsman website again and it strikes me that the owner has done a great job of placing the focus directly on the young girl loaning him rather than himself. 

"Humphrey&#8217;s owner, Joe Ward, 36, said: &#8220;Allana has cared for Humphrey for years and has never been anything other than loving. There were dozens of people with her that day and no-one has told me they saw anything untoward.&#8221;

When I first read the article I didn't think anything of it as I assumed Allana had Humphrey on full loan and that the owner probably wasn't that involved in the day to day care of Humphrey, but now we know (I think!) that the owner is also the YO and that Allana was leasing/just exercising Humphrey based on the owners advice I have to wonder if this was an attempt to draw attention away from the owner and his treatment of Humphrey?


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## FfionWinnie (29 May 2013)

I read it as him refuting the "abusing a horse" thing. We have to remember this is a young girl whose life could be affected by this.  I had a loan horse taken back when I was 15 unexpectedly (I'd done the work and the owner wanted the benefits!) and I still remember the pain. To have one taken by the SSPCA like this would be pretty horrible for an adult never mind a child.


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## FestiveFuzz (29 May 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			I read it as him refuting the "abusing a horse" thing. We have to remember this is a young girl whose life could be affected by this.  I had a loan horse taken back when I was 15 unexpectedly (I'd done the work and the owner wanted the benefits!) and I still remember the pain. To have one taken by the SSPCA like this would be pretty horrible for an adult never mind a child.
		
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See I read it as him refuting that the young girl had abused the horse, but by then we already had people saying that Humphrey had been taken due to his condition, lameness etc. and there was less focus on whether the girl had been witnessed abusing the horse. Surely as the owner you'd say something along the lines of the horse being well loved and cared for by both owner and the young girl rather than just refuting the girl's abuse of the horse? Or perhaps I'm just being a skeptical PR girl.


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## FfionWinnie (29 May 2013)

But you don't know what he said, only the bit that was reported. Which may or may not be some or all of what he said...

I will be keeping an open mind about the whole thing.


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## FestiveFuzz (29 May 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			But you don't know what he said, only the bit that was reported. Which may or may not be some or all of what he said...

I will be keeping an open mind about the whole thing.
		
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Very true, I just found it an interesting angle to take. To be honest I think there's a lot not being said about the situation right now and I'll be interested to see how it all pans out.


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## Jenni_ (29 May 2013)

Horse abuse scandal aside, looking at that picture of him up the Pentands on that ride- if I'd turned up to a ride out like that my mum would have strangled me! No plaits, socks over jodphurs and short boots. I'd have been hided


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## Jenni_ (29 May 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			I totally agree. I'm afraid unless you lived though the last winter in Scotland you have no idea what our stock have been through.  Not just horses but everything is lean, despite being fed heavily.  Last summer was horrendous too and the hay up here is poor.  Large agri merchants even ran short on feed at times - there was no sugar beet pulp available to buy in the three biggest shops near me for many weeks!  The feed has been pumped in, but there's not much to show for it.  There is still a lack of grass here too. If there is stock on it, its not keeping up with them. My Shetland is the only one who has easily maintained condition, but then Shetlands are bred to survive constant wind and rain!  He has also been rugged heavily all winter.  

Yes the horse looks a bit poor. But he can't have been that poor if he cantered sideways as described by Kalibear for 5 hours...!
		
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There's still no hay round here! We had to physically put all the horses out to the less than perfect grass when it was still chilly as there was no hay to be had. I could have kissed the farmer when he came through the gates with 2 round bales last week! We're hoarding it though as he only had 6 bales left to his name.

Thank god the grass is coming through now and I seem to have lost a Warmblood and acquired a Fatblood!


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## FfionWinnie (29 May 2013)

Jenni_ said:



			There's still no hay round here! We had to physically put all the horses out to the less than perfect grass when it was still chilly as there was no hay to be had. I could have kissed the farmer when he came through the gates with 2 round bales last week! We're hoarding it though as he only had 6 bales left to his name.

Thank god the grass is coming through now and I seem to have lost a Warmblood and acquired a Fatblood!
		
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Yes it's amazing only a few weeks of even mediocre spring grass will put weight on better than any feed. I am lucky to live near a guy who makes 2000 round bales to sell. Quality has been variable but I'm not complaining. The trouble is we have had several wet hay seasons in a row and bad winters/long winters which has decimated reserves.


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## doriangrey (29 May 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			I totally agree. I'm afraid unless you lived though the last winter in Scotland you have no idea what our stock have been through.  Not just horses but everything is lean, despite being fed heavily.  Last summer was horrendous too and the hay up here is poor.  Large agri merchants even ran short on feed at times - there was no sugar beet pulp available to buy in the three biggest shops near me for many weeks!  The feed has been pumped in, but there's not much to show for it.  There is still a lack of grass here too. If there is stock on it, its not keeping up with them. My Shetland is the only one who has easily maintained condition, but then Shetlands are bred to survive constant wind and rain!  He has also been rugged heavily all winter.  

Yes the horse looks a bit poor. But he can't have been that poor if he cantered sideways as described by Kalibear for 5 hours...!
		
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But we do know what it's like.  There is a fodder crisis in Ireland at the moment thanks to having a series of very poor summers.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/.../fodder-crisis-not-over-for-farmers-1.1408215

I don't farm but I'm surrounded by farmers and at this time a couple of years ago silage was cut and was growing on for another cutting.  There are no beet producers in Ireland anymore so that has to be imported and prices are going through the roof for cereals - and I'm only buying for chickens!  I wanted to buy straw to bed my ducks down the other day but was told that all straw has been snapped up by farmers desperate to feed their cattle.  Even Vets have grouped together to help farmers because there have been suicides committed because the problem really is that bad here.  Grass is growing at the moment but is very behind.  

I'm lucky, I only have one horse to feed, but she has come out of winter well despite the rubbish weather and if she was looking bad, then imo the buck stops with me despite the weather.


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## OWLIE185 (29 May 2013)

I am still disappointed that the SSPCA has not made a public comment about this.  I would also agree with the post that this will have an unfortunate traumatic effect on the girl concerned.


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## FfionWinnie (29 May 2013)

The average rain fall in Scotland is higher than the rest of the UK and Ireland, the average minimum temperature is the lowest as are the hours of sunshine. That all contributes to the growing season, just a few degrees makes an amazing difference. 

The feed is being shovelled in, but all animals, even well rugged horses, use a massive amount of calories when it is wet and cold, as it has been basically for the last year here.  My animals are not lean, but they are certainly the leanest I have seen them at this time of year despite having the largest feed bill I have ever had. Thankfully, I don't have any TBs!


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## asbo (29 May 2013)

Jenni_ said:



			There's still no hay round here! We had to physically put all the horses out to the less than perfect grass when it was still chilly as there was no hay to be had. I could have kissed the farmer when he came through the gates with 2 round bales last week! We're hoarding it though as he only had 6 bales left to his name.

Thank god the grass is coming through now and I seem to have lost a Warmblood and acquired a Fatblood!
		
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Our farmer kept as much as he could for us, but thats him now out and we have 1 laminitic, 1 borderline and my little lady all stabled at night, I am still having to give the odd net to my other 2 as well. Haylage from feedstores has gone up and the hay at the Drum is about £6.75 a square.


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## MillyMoomie (1 June 2013)

HelpHumphrey I hope you pay attention. 

The fact you are using a dirty untruthful story from the dirty untruthful daily mail as some sort of attempt to justify your actions disgusts me. 

You know NOTHING about this, you know NOTHING about Dawn Aubrey Ward and what happened. The fact you are prepared to use such shameful stories should speak volumns to everyone.

I COULD state some nasty stories myself, but I won't UNTIL I know they are based in fact. You would be wise to do the same.

Does the person responsible and being investigated know about this?


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## Amymay (1 June 2013)

Where have they posted Milly??


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## Moomin1 (1 June 2013)

amymay said:



			Where have they posted Milly??
		
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On the FB site by the looks of things.

Very very sick to use DAW's suicide story in that way.  There was an awful lot more to DAW's story than is known in the public eye, and it is completely inappropriate IMO to publish the biased account which the Daily Fail give, nevermind someone use it as part of their gripes against the SSPCA.


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## MillyMoomie (1 June 2013)

Amymay they have posted an absolutely disgusting article written by the Daily Fail that as done what they call a 'special investigation' on the RSPCA causing people to commit suicide. It is utterly foul. 

I also fail to see why it is relevant to HelpHumphrey as the RSPCA and SPCA are totally seperate. But then as HelpHumphrey didn't know the difference between the Scottish animal welfare organisation (which isn't currently a registered charity) and the SPCA I can hardly be surprised at their ignorance.


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## Goldenstar (1 June 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			Amymay they have posted an absolutely disgusting article written by the Daily Fail that as done what they call a 'special investigation' on the RSPCA causing people to commit suicide. It is utterly foul. 

I also fail to see why it is relevant to HelpHumphrey as the RSPCA and SPCA are totally seperate. But then as HelpHumphrey didn't know the difference between the Scottish animal welfare organisation (which isn't currently a registered charity) and the SPCA I can hardly be surprised at their ignorance.
		
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While I agree that the DM article is completely irrelevant to helphumphry story, I fails to see what is disgusting about the article you may not agree with its slant or the conclusions the journist draws from the cases mentained but the facts are facts it's not foul its language is measured it's simply presents a view  you don't agree with.


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## Moomin1 (1 June 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			While I agree that the DM article is completely irrelevant to helphumphry story, I fails to see what is disgusting about the article you may not agree with its slant or the conclusions the journist draws from the cases mentained but the facts are facts it's not foul its language is measured it's simply presents a view  you don't agree with.
		
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If you knew the full facts behind DAW then you would most likely agree that it is completely out of order to publish what they have done.


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## MillyMoomie (1 June 2013)

Goldenstar I'm afraid it is totally and utterly false, full of misleading inaccurate DISGUSTING stories. It presents no view accept the one a of well know hate campaign by well known haters. Jonathon Rich, Clive etc etc etc.... 
If you knew the inside information on all of this you would also be appalled.

As for Clwyd... I  sure that has been done to death on here but I hope the RSPCA publish EVERYTHING.


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## MillyMoomie (1 June 2013)

P.s Goldenstar 'facts are facts'..... You really believe this???

I enjoy reading well balanced differing views to my own... As long as the FACTS are vaguely accurate.


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## Amymay (1 June 2013)

Ah just read it. More b $ ll $ cks about Clwyd Davies I see.......


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (1 June 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			Goldenstar I'm afraid it is totally and utterly false, full of misleading inaccurate DISGUSTING stories. It presents no view accept the one a of well know hate campaign by well known haters. Jonathon Rich, Clive etc etc etc.... 
If you knew the inside information on all of this you would also be appalled.

As for Clwyd... I  sure that has been done to death on here but I hope the RSPCA publish EVERYTHING.
		
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Whenever anybody starts calling people "haters" I begin to wonder about their motives.

Since when has childish namecalling been a replacement for balanced argument?


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## MillyMoomie (1 June 2013)

Sorry what? 

There is nothing balanced about the article itself. I will use whatever derogatory name I wish. 

'So there HATER..' ( pokes tongue out and stamps foot )


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## Goldenstar (1 June 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			Sorry what? 



'So there HATER..' ( pokes tongue out and stamps foot )
		
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What on earth do you mean by that ? How extremely childish .


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## MillyMoomie (1 June 2013)

That was called 'being purposefully sarcastically childish'


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## PolarSkye (1 June 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			Oh FFS a lean old horse after a harsh winter is not a problem if measures are being put in place to rectify the issue.

A thin, old horse after a harsh winter being taken on a 5 hour fast ride is suggestive that his basic care needs are not being met which IS a welfare issue.

I have a TB who can drop weight easily....& trust me winter hasn't been a barrel of laughs here. Hence why his eventing season is starting late so I can be sure he is in optimal condition for the work I'm asking if him....simple, no?

And I will repeat what I posted earlier the SSPCA didn't just chance upon Humphrey, somebody reported him for his condition and/or how he was being treated. This speaks volumes.
		
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This.  All day long.  This.

I don't have a TB, but I do have a sporthorse who drops weight quite easily and came out of winter leaner than I would have liked (and nowhere near as lean as Humphrey) . . . there is NO WAY my boy would have been working that hard in that condition.  As glamourpuss says, Simple.

There is a world of difference between a lean/fit top event horse or racehorse and a poor/on the thin side weak-looking veteran.

And, yes, it is worth repeating what glamourpuss says above - the SSPCA was tipped off - and quite possibly for good reason.  Bottom line, I'd bet dollars to donuts that there's more to this than meets the eye.

P


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## PolarSkye (1 June 2013)

TeddyBean said:



			Also he has a bandaged back leg in most of the photos, including on the siezure day ride. Seems to be an ongoing issue, suggests to me that he shouldn't be in heavy work like galloping up steep hills for 5 hours...
		
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. . . indeed - and I was always taught that you never bandage just one leg 

P


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## khalswitz (5 June 2013)

SSPCA today: "A 36-year-old man from West Lothian will be reported to the procurator fiscal for causing unnecessary suffering to a horse following a Scottish SPCA investigation and independent veterinary advice.
The horse was removed from premises in East Calder in May 2013 due to welfare concerns.
The Scottish SPCA is a reporting agency to the Crown Office Procurator Fiscal Service and our inspectors are authorised to enforce the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006.
We can issue no further comment at this stage."

Same case?


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## OAP65 (5 June 2013)

Yes


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## OAP65 (5 June 2013)

SSPCA wouldn't go to the lengths of time and cost of passing report to Procurator Fiscal if they were not confident of getting a result. I also suspect that this has been going on for some time and that the Common Ride incident was the last straw. I could be wrong of course .....


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## Moomin1 (5 June 2013)

PolarSkye said:



			. . . indeed - and I was always taught that you never bandage just one leg 

P
		
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Yes that always used to be what was taught, but it seems most vets have different ideas about it these days.


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## sparkles69 (5 June 2013)

Well thank god the horse is in safe hands now and hope the people get what they desevre and the hole truth about this horible man and his past about the abouse to other horses he was involed in comes out


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## snooples (6 June 2013)

I wonder if this horse had been on the fat side of healthy instead of the lean side would there still be a problem.
People seem to find fat horses more acceptable (esp on here where alot of ppl own fat cobs) than thin horses but both will be unfit and put stress on their hearts over the course of the ride.

Its been a long winter and a lot of people have had problems getting quality feed for their animals, here in Ireland we had 100s of cattle and other animal die due to lack of food and had to get loads of hay imported a few weeks back after the poor summer and awful winter. It was national news for weeks. So the long winter can definately be an influence.


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## weesophz (6 June 2013)

In regards to the bandaged leg it was an old injury that was to be kept covered as it was sensitive.. 

That's what's his old owner put on facebook. Dont really believe it right enough, fox has shredded both his back legs and one has lots of bald patches and scarring and the leg isn't any more sensitive than the rest. Hopefully Humphrey will be well cared for now whatever the outcome, he's a poor old soul.


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## Amymay (6 June 2013)

sparkles69 said:



			Well thank god the horse is in safe hands now and hope the people get what they desevre and the hole truth about this horible man and his past about the abouse to other horses he was involed in comes out
		
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That's all fairly cryptic.


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## misterjinglejay (6 June 2013)

sparkles69 said:



			Well thank god the horse is in safe hands now and hope the people get what they desevre and the hole truth about this horible man and his past about the abouse to other horses he was involed in comes out
		
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Interesting first post


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## crabbymare (6 June 2013)

Have not read the whole thread but from what I understand (and I could be wrong) there were 2 horses seized and the prosecution referes to "a horse" so did this man own both or is the other going to be a separate prosecution? If they are prosecuting I would expect them to be confident of a conviction so they must have got the evidence or vets reports they need.


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## piebaldsparkle (6 June 2013)

crabbymare said:



			Have not read the whole thread but from what I understand (and I could be wrong) there were 2 horses seized and the prosecution referes to "a horse" so did this man own both or is the other going to be a separate prosecution? If they are prosecuting I would expect them to be confident of a conviction so they must have got the evidence or vets reports they need.
		
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I believe the 2 horses had separate owners


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## piebaldsparkle (6 June 2013)

weesophz said:



			In regards to the bandaged leg it was an old injury that was to be kept covered as it was sensitive.. 

That's what's his old owner put on facebook. Dont really believe it right enough, fox has shredded both his back legs and one has lots of bald patches and scarring and the leg isn't any more sensitive than the rest. Hopefully Humphrey will be well cared for now whatever the outcome, he's a poor old soul.
		
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Don't know how you feel you can compare your horses injury and how it healed, with another horse.  Humphrey apparently degloved that leg, if this included down the cannon bone, I can completely see how the scar tissue could be fragile/delicate and need protection to prevent further injury.


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## weesophz (6 June 2013)

piebaldsparkle said:



			Don't know how you feel you can compare your horses injury and how it healed, with another horse.  Humphrey apparently degloved that leg, if this included down the cannon bone, I can completely see how the scar tissue could be fragile/delicate and need protection to prevent further injury.
		
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its the exact same injury, fox degloved his leg and was on boxrest for 3 weeks with it, then was allowed a few hours turnout. has a white scare the size of 50p from where it healed. before that hed ripped the skin off both hind legs right down the cannon bone but we have no idea how, wish i still had the pictures it was gruesome. 

however yes every horse is different.


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## snooples (6 June 2013)

any updates on this


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## Amymay (6 June 2013)

What updates are you expecting?


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## snooples (6 June 2013)

amymay said:



			What updates are you expecting?
		
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What sort of question is that surely its fairly obvious.

Whether the owners were charged with anything, whether sspca have said anything, whether the horse might be going back to the girl who was loaning him, why the horse was taken. Basically all the questions that have been asked throughout the thread!!


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## FfionWinnie (6 June 2013)

Nothing will happen quickly.


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## OAP65 (6 June 2013)

Yesterday press release from SSPCA "A 36-year-old man from West Lothian will be reported to the procurator fiscal for causing unnecessary suffering to a horse following a Scottish SPCA investigation and independent veterinary advice.
The horse was removed from premises in East Calder in May 2013 due to welfare concerns.
The Scottish SPCA is a reporting agency to the Crown Office Procurator Fiscal Service and our inspectors are authorised to enforce the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006.
We can issue no further comment at this stage."

That is the state of play at the moment as far as I am aware. There is a Facebook page called "Help Humphrey" where you can draw your own conclusions on who is right and who is wrong.  Just don't believe everything you read there.


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## snooples (6 June 2013)

Its all very strange isnt it, thats why im so intrigued!


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## OAP65 (6 June 2013)

It will rumble on for a while, the law is a long process! But I am keeping my beady eyes on them LOL. Most of the people on the FB page don't even know those involved so how can they form an opinion on what has gone on. And one person in particular doesn't like anyone who dares to disagree.


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## sparkles69 (7 June 2013)

Yes if they only new the truth about him they would not be backing but hopefuly very soon the truth will come out and peoole will see the real him for what he is


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## snooples (7 June 2013)

sparkles69 said:



			Yes if they only new the truth about him they would not be backing but hopefuly very soon the truth will come out and peoole will see the real him for what he is
		
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are you talking about the owner of humphrey and if so whats the truth!!


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## piebaldsparkle (7 June 2013)

The trouble is the SSPCA are hardly whiter than white.........


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## LittleRooketRider (11 June 2013)

snooples said:



			are you talking about the owner of humphrey and if so whats the truth!! 

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i thought humphrey was owned/looked after by a young girl??

what truth???


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## OAP65 (11 June 2013)

LittleRocketRider said:



			i thought humphrey was owned/looked after by a young girl??

what truth???
		
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As far as I know Humphrey is looked after by the girl in the video, its the owner who has been reported to Procurator Fiscal.


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## undergroundoli (11 June 2013)

snooples said:



			I wonder if this horse had been on the fat side of healthy instead of the lean side would there still be a problem.
People seem to find fat horses more acceptable (esp on here where alot of ppl own fat cobs) than thin horses but both will be unfit and put stress on their hearts over the course of the ride.
		
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I think this is a really intresting point.


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## ChestnutTinker (11 June 2013)

OAP65 said:



			As far as I know Humphrey is looked after by the girl in the video, its the owner who has been reported to Procurator Fiscal.
		
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I thought she looked after but didn't own so we must be on the same track


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## OAP65 (11 June 2013)

I have seen Humphrey looking a lot better than he did on the day of the Ride, in my humble opinion he wasn't in the right condition to cope with the Ride. And just to re-iterate, he WAS hacked to the Ride. I don't care what anyone says on HH facebook page, whoever says he was trailered to the Ride is a liar


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## justabob (11 June 2013)

OAP65 said:



			I have seen Humphrey looking a lot better than he did on the day of the Ride, in my humble opinion he wasn't in the right condition to cope with the Ride. And just to re-iterate, he WAS hacked to the Ride. I don't care what anyone says on HH facebook page, whoever says he was trailered to the Ride is a liar 

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well done OAP65, keep on saying it as it is.


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## snooples (11 June 2013)

Tbh I dont see what the big deal is, the picture of the horse on the ride isnt that bad he is a bit skinny but nothing awful considering he is an older TB after probably the hardest winter we have ever had, so I cant imagine how hard it was in Scotland.
Horses naturally lose weight over winter so I wouldnt expect him to tbe the same as the picture of him last summer where he looked fantastic.
Reports seem to be he was full of energy for the ride.

Iv often seen obese horses and much skinnier horses on rides and havent ever heard of a situation where the horse gets seized without warning.

Im just going to assume there is a lot more to this story than a slightly skinny TB and that the sspca had been in contact with the owner a number of times prior to seizing the horse.


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## Glayva (26 June 2013)

Just posting on this now!

With everyone who is oblivious to their own errors, they never think they have done anything wrong, and always think its someone elses fault, they cant take an objective view because they are oblivious to the fact they might be doing something wrong, and take no responsibility for their actions.
Were are the statements saying, yes he is underweight (thats not a fit TB by any measure!) but we were trying to get the weight on him. They cant accept the poor old boy looks terrible, but acknowledge it and at least explain why. Denial Denial Denial!!!

They are not telling the whole truth about that animal and what happened before it even got to the ride out that day. I dont believe for a second that the first time they ever had any involvment with the SSPCA was when they turned up to take it on that day. 

That animal was in a shocking state to be taken on a ride. Simple as that.  Its an elderly horse, really in poor condition, it should have been kept at home and fed. Not out on a ride.

This nonsense about our scottish winter etc, its edinburgh for god sake, not shetland. Yes its been longer than normal, but if your horse drops off and looses condition, being 20+, the very last thing you would do would be to take it on a blooming ride out!

And the realitiy is that its very easy to flood every website, facebook etc with one side of a story when the other side can't comment. 

I will also mention that the person who is supposed to be from this Scottish wildlife charity, is a complete con man. He is up to no good!  Dont be fooled by the pick up with sign writing and nonsense he spouts and certinley DO NOT GIVE HIM MONEY!!! could say more but wont!


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## OAP65 (26 June 2013)

Well said! Couldn't agree more, if anyone posts on their FB page a comment that doesn't agree with them, or asks a searching question, then it is either ridiculed or deleted. Half the people on there don't even know the people in question, so how can they possibly form an opinion. I know the SSPCA have their haters and I have heard of some awful situations but I believe in this instance they did the right thing. 

And as for that other Wildlife organisation, well, yes he is a bit of an odd ball and people should steer well clear.

I hope Humphrey eventually goes to a good home, he has been through a lot in his life and deserves a home where he will be appreciated for the lovely horse he is.


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## BetsyBlue (4 July 2013)

I have been reading this story with interest and it amazes me the power social media has.  However it is beginning to annoy me that everyone thinks that this young girl owns the horse, she is not the legal owner and a report has been sent to the PF regarding the owner.


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## LaurenBay (4 July 2013)

Was Humphrey returned in the end?


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## Amymay (4 July 2013)

The case continues Lauren.


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## LaurenBay (4 July 2013)

Thanks for the update AmyMay. Must admit I had forgotten about this!


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## OAP65 (5 July 2013)

The jungle drums have slowed down a bit, as soon as I hear any news I will post here. Lets just hope that Humphrey stays safe and finds a new loving home.


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## BetsyBlue (6 July 2013)

I am sure Humphrey is being looked after but unfortunately he can't go to a good home until after the PF has looked at the case, hopefully this won't take to long.


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## OAP65 (6 July 2013)

I know I just hope that PF doesn't throw case out and Humphrey goes back to owner. Humph so deserves a peaceful and loving new home.


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## exracehorse (8 July 2013)

Blimey!!! Started to read page 1 and got to page 40 two hours later. Hope the story doesn't just fizzle out. Want to know how it all ends up!! 
Must admit, it didn't sit right in my lap right from the beginning.


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## OAP65 (8 July 2013)

Personally I think that the seizure of Humphrey was the last straw, I think that the owner has at last got his just desserts. He is known to a lot of people and not many have a good word to say about him. Its a long process but I will post when I hear the result.


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## TeddyBean (5 August 2013)

So I just looked up Help Humphrey on twitter to see if there was anything on there about the whole thing and one of the first results that came up was Allana, his sharer, tweeting about having to maybe sell her other horse? How come he hasn't been mentioned before? 
Also why does she only ride in racing saddles? In the photos of her with her 'other' horse she is in a racing saddle too. When asked why Humph was in a racing saddle they said it was because of his owners preference as he was an ex jokey or something? 
This whole case is really irritating me, especially the facebook page which is so one sided it hurts!


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## ChestnutTinker (5 August 2013)

I can't follow it anymore - completely confused!


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## Legup32 (5 August 2013)

TeddyBean said:



			So I just looked up Help Humphrey on twitter to see if there was anything on there about the whole thing and one of the first results that came up was Allana, his sharer, tweeting about having to maybe sell her other horse? How come he hasn't been mentioned before? 
Also why does she only ride in racing saddles? In the photos of her with her 'other' horse she is in a racing saddle too. When asked why Humph was in a racing saddle they said it was because of his owners preference as he was an ex jokey or something? 
This whole case is really irritating me, especially the facebook page which is so one sided it hurts!
		
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I am so glad someone else sees the whole thing the same way as I do! The owner (who is the person that has been reported) is an ex-jockey (don't know if he was ever professional). I am sick and tired of seeing the Help Humphrey fb page plastered on other groups, as you say it is very one-sided. If anyone queries some of the stuff that has been said or criticises anything, then that person is deleted from the page or a comment is made that "if you don't like it then don't post" attitude, which really irritates me and makes me think they have something to hide and that not all the true story is being told. I also think that the SSPCA have been after him for a while and they saw Humphrey as their chance to get him. There was also another horse seized but no-one has mentioned this horse at all. From what Ive heard he is a nasty person, very ready with his whip, arrogant, and "my way or the highway" type.


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## BlackRider (6 April 2014)

Does anyone know what happened to Humphrey?


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## Jenni_ (6 April 2014)

Still ongoing I believe


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## exracehorse (6 April 2014)

Forgot all about this thread! Yes. What did happen. Is the Facebook page still going?


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## BlackRider (6 April 2014)

Thanks Jenni, not sure why this popped into my head today, can't believe it is still ongoing..


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## khalswitz (6 April 2014)

Apache Warlord said:



			Thanks Jenni, not sure why this popped into my head today, can't believe it is still ongoing..
		
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These cases take months, even years to come to court. I rehomed my horse from the sspca, and he was there for a year and a half before his case was seen.


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## Legup32 (3 May 2015)

For those that remember this. http://www.scottishspca.org/news/2015_fine-for-horse-owner


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## minesadouble (3 May 2015)

Missed this thread first time around but I have to say that horse looks way thinner in the 'before' pic of the news report than it does in the 'loading' video - confused???


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## BlackRider (3 May 2015)

Wow - he looks like a different horse now - it looks like the SSPCA did the right thing.


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## Kallibear (3 May 2015)

I saw the horse on the ride. He was lean but not 'OMG'. He was being a twit though and didn't look fit enough to do the whole ride. Being lame wouldn't surprise me but hard to tell as he spend most of the time cantering sideways. However the other horse he was with was emaciated (maybe a 1/5, at a push) and the reason the SSPCA were called. Humphry got caught up in it.


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## Hillpark (3 May 2015)

I think the issue, more than his condition, was that he was asked to do the ride when he was in no fit state to do it. What you can't see in the photos are the blisters on his withers from the saddle, but you can see the sweat marks, indicating how hard he must have worked. Whether he was being a twit is irrelevant, he shouldn't have been asked to do the ride and thats what they have been found guilty of.

Equally, I find it odd that people are commenting on the video of him being loaded saying he looks fine?! He looks like a lame, tired and lean horse to me!


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## Sparkles (4 May 2015)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news...5-2015&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter


Don't know if been posted or not. Fined but going back to owner it appears.

Only thing i can question is i don't know how a 12 mile ride takes 6 hours....must be very slow!


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## ester (4 May 2015)

Nothing for the owner/rider then either. 

I've seen it quoted as 10 miles, unless they zig zag a lot!?


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## Kallibear (4 May 2015)

It's done mostly at walk, with some very hard gallops up near vertical hills. There's an awful lot of faffing around,  various drinks stops and a lunch stop. It sets off from the parking at 9.30 and gets back about 14.30, so about 5hrs. Many of the riders don't bother getting off at the stops to rest their horses back, esp the very fat ones (there are a few!) as they're not able to get back on again.


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## Sparkles (4 May 2015)

Kallibear said:



			It's done mostly at walk, with some very hard gallops up near vertical hills. There's an awful lot of faffing around,  various drinks stops and a lunch stop. It sets off from the parking at 9.30 and gets back about 14.30, so about 5hrs. Many of the riders don't bother getting off at the stops to rest their horses back, esp the very fat ones (there are a few!) as they're not able to get back on again.
		
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Ah that makes sense


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## ester (4 May 2015)

yup thanks kallibear, you are a long way from here and I suspect your hills are a bit more than we are used to, on the basis that wiltshire has impressed me having grown up on the somerset levels!


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## Equi (4 May 2015)

Hope the SSPCA took loads of hunting horses in then, cause the state some of them are made to hunt in would shock me.


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## Kallibear (4 May 2015)

The SSPCA do have a bit of vendetta against the owner (who has a reputation) and prone to turning a blind eye when it suits them, whilst publicising those they think make them look good.. No, the horse shouldn't have been doing the ride BUT (sadly) one of the inspectors is connected to a local riding school where the horses are often in just as poor condition.  The other RS is no better and the horses often have open saddle sores. I KNOW there a some lame horses sent out, heavily buted.  But so far it's been overlooked......


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## Marchogaeth (6 May 2015)

I've just seen on Facebook, Humphrey is back home with is owners! 
They've put some photos up if anyone wants a look!


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## Equi (6 May 2015)

Marchogaeth said:



			I've just seen on Facebook, Humphrey is back home with is owners! 
They've put some photos up if anyone wants a look!
		
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I saw. Glad for that. I don't think he deserved to be taken in the first place tbh.


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## Amymay (6 May 2015)

He looks great.


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