# Where do sycamore seeds fall?



## Patchworkpony (29 April 2014)

Given the horror that sycamore seeds can cause I was wondering how many people have noticed exactly where the seeds fell last year and where the seedlings are growing now. Is it more or less under the trees or is it lots of metres away from the main tree in a paddock? I rang the RHS today, as I am a member, and spoke to their information department. They seemed to think that most of the seeds dropped under the trees but they did say last autumn was 'logged' as an exceptional year for acorns, conkers and of cause sycamore seeds.


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## yorks (29 April 2014)

Surely it must depend on the wind a lot. Sycamore seeds are the 'aeroplanes' which spin round as they fall. The majority would be around the tree where not so many would grow due to competition from the mother tree but if the wind was blowing as they fell then they could be in a much larger area .


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## Houndman (29 April 2014)

All in our guttering  GRRRR!!


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## lelly (29 April 2014)

Our paddock is just under an acre and the sycamore tree is in the middle, more or less. I have been pulling seedlings up from over the fencing around the outside of the field as well as inside. They do travel a long way.


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## Patchworkpony (29 April 2014)

Thanks lelly - this is what I am worried about. We have sycamores all down the other side of the lane from our paddock at our new house and I am now worried that they may blow into the field. I am sorely tempted not to get any more ponies as I will live in fear of them being poisoned. I just wonder how long the seeds go on dropping. I mean do you keep animals confined for a month or six weeks while you pick up the seeds or do they drop all winter?


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## lelly (29 April 2014)

It is a very tricky situation. I have never had a problem with the sycamore. The seeds drop for ages in the autumn and now all the seedlings are growing. The best I can do is keep clearing up as much as possible. I don't have anywhere else to keep my horses.


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## Patchworkpony (29 April 2014)

lelly - how do you clear up the seeds? Do you get most of them or do lots 'escape'?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 April 2014)

I have 4.5 acres as an oblong shape of around 1.4 acres wide & the rest long.
In every paddock there are sycamore seedlings, apart from the corner of the very wet one, in the far south westerly corner
Imagine that the tree is at 'B' if my area was a dressage arena - that is how far they are spread... sigh....


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## hairycob (29 April 2014)

The nearest sycamore tree to the paddock Jason fell ill in was about 80m away. When the seedlings started to grow we thought they were ash as there are ash trees on the edge of the field. The paddock HP fell ill in was a bit further away. I think last years gales spread the seeds further than usual.


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## PollyP99 (29 April 2014)

Interestingly I have seen the paddock which led to a case of atypical myopathy last week and it has areas covered in seedlings.  I was poo picking my mares field and noticed that in the far far corner of the field there is what looks like a maple/ sycamore, it has seeds on it now they look like they will be the helicopter ones.  Now ther are no seedlings at all under the tree  I looked everywhere of course I'm paranoid so. Would know.  So whys that  then do we think??


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## PollyP99 (29 April 2014)

hairycob said:



			The nearest sycamore tree to the paddock Jason fell ill in was about 80m away. When the seedlings started to grow we thought they were ash as there are ash trees on the edge of the field. The paddock HP fell ill in was a bit further away. I think last years gales spread the seeds further than usual.
		
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Is your field surrounded by trees HC, is there a river nearby - any of the other indicators?


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## hairycob (29 April 2014)

12 acre site with hedge & quite a lot of trees around the 3 sides of the boundary. Mostly ash, birch, willow, hawthorn, blackthorn & hornbeam. Some field maple but that isn't meant to contain the toxin. No sycamores on the property but there is one in the adjacent property. Brook on the 4th side but there is a track between the brook & the paddocks. The paddock HP was in when he fell ill was in the middle with no adjacent trees or hedge.


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## lelly (29 April 2014)

I use a ajustable leaf rake and a poo scoop. I do get loads but also miss a lot.  Thats why I am pulling seedlings now. It takes hours of work.


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## PollyP99 (29 April 2014)

hairycob said:



			12 acre site with hedge & quite a lot of trees around the 3 sides of the boundary. Mostly ash, birch, willow, hawthorn, blackthorn & hornbeam. Some field maple but that isn't meant to contain the toxin. No sycamores on the property but there is one in the adjacent property. Brook on the 4th side but there is a track between the brook & the paddocks. The paddock HP was in when he fell ill was in the middle with no adjacent trees or hedge.
		
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There is more to this than straight sycamore, the paddock with my local case has trees on three sides and a stream on the 4th.  It flooded in the winter, did yours?


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## Evie91 (29 April 2014)

I'm panicking now!
Spent my savings so horse could retire at home - have approx one and a half acres (so will have horse and a companion pony), maybe a bit more, split in to two paddocks. Smallest paddock has a huge sycamore in the middle - thought it would provide good shade in the summer!!!! Other paddock has what look like smaller sycamores along the whole of one side.
I'm beside myself with worry now 
Are there other trees in the sycamore family and are they just as poisonous?


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## Patchworkpony (29 April 2014)

Hairycob - did you notice lots of seedlings in the paddock or were there just one or two? Wonderful article in the Mail by the way. Took it with me to a show on Sunday and started to educate people about the dangers of sycamores.


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## Evie91 (29 April 2014)

Hairycob - if you don't mind me asking, was your horse out 24/7?


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## PollyP99 (29 April 2014)

Question from me too how can you tell the difference between field maple and a sycamore, I'm wondering if the one in my field is a field maple as there were no seedlings?

The case near me was out 24x7


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## Evie91 (29 April 2014)

Thanks pollyp99 - I've just googled field maple and it seems some of the trees I thought were sycamore are field maple instead.

From what I can see the sycamore leaves are much broader and more veiny - also looks like the field maple doesn't have helicopter seeds.
I still have a huge sycamore to contend with but feel a little less panicked!


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## Evie91 (29 April 2014)

Also a gardening friend of mine suggested mowing the area with a collecting box on mower, thus getting leaves, seeds and seedlings


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## Patchworkpony (29 April 2014)

Evie91 - if it is a real worry could you take the main tree down?


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## Evie91 (29 April 2014)

We could but not currently - tree surgeons quote was 2k !!


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## hairycob (29 April 2014)

Yes mine were out 24/7 from the beginning of March. The field that Jason fell ill in (field A)didn't flood at all. The bottom part of the field that HP fell ill in (field B)flooded at the bottom but he was in the top part. There were a lot of seedlings in field A which we thought were ash & were only able to identify as sycamore after Jason had died. HP was then restricted to about .5 acre in field B that we could check twice a day for seedlings & given haylage. There were a lot of seedlings in the bottom part of the field & only a few in the top part he was restricted to. That was the reason he had the top part - we could go over it & take them all out before he went in & keep it clear by hand while poo picking. We also picked up any dead leaves that blew in but tbh there were only a dozen or so over the whole week. They had been in field B for most of March only moving to field A 2 weeks before Jason died. Ironically they spent the previous 3.5 months in the winter field closer to the sycamore tree.


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## Patchworkpony (29 April 2014)

hairycob - if you moved HP to a safer place and kept it clear by hand I don't understand why he got ill when you had been SO careful. It doesn't make sense.


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## flirtygerty (29 April 2014)

I am paranoid after what happened to HC, I am currently hand grazing on the local verges, till my grass comes through, but I will only let them graze on one side of the road, just in case


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## hairycob (30 April 2014)

I don't think anyone understands why HP got ill. All the advice is keep a close eye for 3 days after moving out of "bad" field. He came out on the evening if the 11th & fell ill on the 19th. I am determined that something positive will come of this & am researching how to raise funds for research & education. This may mean setting up a charity if I can't find an existing body to piggy back on.


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## Patchworkpony (30 April 2014)

Hairycob - I have so much respect for you. Thank you for the reply - perhaps it was a delayed reaction. I really admire the way you are going to use this experience to help others and not wallow in your own grief. My advice to you would be to contact lots of horse magazines and get them to put out an appeal to help you get your research/charity started and also possibly the top drawer country magazines such as Country Life and Field. Editors are always looking for a new story (I used to write for some of these mags years ago) and given the right slant you should be able to reach out to those who can help and maybe even start the funding. Good luck!


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## EstherYoung (30 April 2014)

The seeds get everywhere and fly a long way - it's not like oak where the acorns just drop. Just have a look at how many are underfoot at seeding time as you walk down the road even.

They are very common trees round here - I'd say every field in the local area is at risk.


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## Rollin (30 April 2014)

My young stable jockey, in France, has just lost a Falabella and Shetland to poisoning from Sycamore.  No trees near him.  He thought someone had poisoned them and the vet had checked the paddock.

It was found to be sycamore.  Wind can carry the seeds a long way.


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## hairycob (30 April 2014)

Am in contact with a journalist who is talking to one of the horsey magazines. If that doesn't work I will have to contact the others.


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## suestowford (30 April 2014)

Apparently all the storms we had helped to blow the seeds further than usual.

I have lots of seedlings (have been pulling them up) but I'm not sure if they are sycamores or not. Off to look on google now...


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## Biglets Mummy (30 April 2014)

hairycob said:



			I don't think anyone understands why HP got ill. All the advice is keep a close eye for 3 days after moving out of "bad" field. He came out on the evening if the 11th & fell ill on the 19th. I am determined that something positive will come of this & am researching how to raise funds for research & education. This may mean setting up a charity if I can't find an existing body to piggy back on.
		
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Good for you Hairycob. Support you 100% in this.xxx


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## Patchworkpony (30 April 2014)

Rollin said:



			My young stable jockey, in France, has just lost a Falabella and Shetland to poisoning from Sycamore.  No trees near him.  He thought someone had poisoned them and the vet had checked the paddock.

It was found to be sycamore.  Wind can carry the seeds a long way.
		
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 This is what makes it all SO scary!


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## Patchworkpony (30 April 2014)

EstherYoung said:



			The seeds get everywhere and fly a long way - it's not like oak where the acorns just drop. Just have a look at how many are underfoot at seeding time as you walk down the road even.

They are very common trees round here - I'd say every field in the local area is at risk.
		
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 So basically no one who is remotely near neighbouring sycamores is safe. I don't think any of us have really had to worry about sycamores before but now it appears they are the new equine bogey man.


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## PollyP99 (30 April 2014)

As per my posts earlier I had a shock thinking we had a sycamore at the yard I'm on, it's not, its a field maple which has the same leaves and also helicopter looking seeds but there's no seedlings underneath.  I've checked the images and the barks are totally different, sycamore being smooth and sheds, seeds are a different shape, so for,those of you saying you have a few  in your fields check are not the field maple which does not have the toxin in the seeds.

The field with the case near me I thought had a number of sycamore in fact it's only one the rest are maple.  This does mean it's possible to have it removed ( if land owner agrees) whereas when we thought it was lots I know they wouldn't have.

Field maple has cork rough bark

https://www.google.com/#q=bark+of+field+maple



Sycamore has smooth bark which 'exfoliates'

https://www.google.com/#q=bark+of+sycamore+tree[/QUOTE]


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## TGM (30 April 2014)

It is not just the wind that can spread the seeds, in the wet winter we have had I would have thought seeds could travel a fair way in flood water.


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## windand rain (30 April 2014)

While I appreciate the necessity to protect the horses and ponies from these seeds and seedling I am somewhat alarmed at the idea of felling mature trees, having lost a lot of ash, lime and elm trees is would seem somewhat drastic for the country side for the mass extermination of sycamore trees. So without appearing unfeeling please can someone point me in the direction of peer reviewed scientific proof that sycamores are the culprit in the cases of Myopathy. It takes tens if not hundreds of years for the countryside to recover from the damage done to trees many of which will have preservation orders on and could land you with a huge planning problem and immense cost.
Formerly the cause was held to be bacteria from rotting leaves and fungi spores so it does seem a bit half cocked to start vandalising the countryside


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## PollyP99 (30 April 2014)

windand rain said:



			While I appreciate the necessity to protect the horses and ponies from these seeds and seedling I am somewhat alarmed at the idea of felling mature trees, having lost a lot of ash, lime and elm trees is would seem somewhat drastic for the country side for the mass extermination of sycamore trees. So without appearing unfeeling please can someone point me in the direction of peer reviewed scientific proof that sycamores are the culprit in the cases of Myopathy. It takes tens if not hundreds of years for the countryside to recover from the damage done to trees many of which will have preservation orders on and could land you with a huge planning problem and immense cost.
Formerly the cause was held to be bacteria from rotting leaves and fungi spores so it does seem a bit half cocked to start vandalising the countryside
		
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I do understand your comments but with limited grazing options open to most and the near death of one horse (not to mention the sudden death of a youngster last year in the same paddock ) I can see every side.  There's lots linking the presence of sycamore in a huge percentage of cases out there:

http://www.beva.org.uk/news-and-events/news/view/438


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## paddy555 (30 April 2014)

Rollin said:



			My young stable jockey, in France, has just lost a Falabella and Shetland to poisoning from Sycamore.  No trees near him.  He thought someone had poisoned them and the vet had checked the paddock.

It was found to be sycamore.  Wind can carry the seeds a long way.
		
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I am sorry to hear this. Can you explain how they determined it to be sycamore, what tests etc confirmed it? 
thanks


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## EstherYoung (30 April 2014)

A lot of the pics of sycamore bark in the link above are American sycamore, which are a different tree (although also linked to a myopathy like condition). Details of how to identify European sycamore are here: http://www.rfs.org.uk/learning/sycamore and field maple here: http://www.rfs.org.uk/learning/Field-maple

Field maple have smaller, rounder leaves that go golden in the autumn. The flowers are very different too. One definite way of telling is the zillions of aphids that sycamores will be attracting soon.


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## EstherYoung (30 April 2014)

http://primaryscientists.com/2013/09/25/autumnwatch-3-maple-or-sycamore/


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## PollyP99 (30 April 2014)

EstherYoung said:



http://primaryscientists.com/2013/09/25/autumnwatch-3-maple-or-sycamore/

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Oh I really liked comparing bark as it was very obviously different, confused by the seed and leaf comparisons?


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## Patchworkpony (30 April 2014)

Gosh - everyone is being really helpful. Thank you.


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