# Anyone see CM get bitten by a Lab?



## lexiedhb (17 September 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM#!

He said there was no warning- erm what was all the growling, teeth barring etc then?


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## Amymay (17 September 2012)

Was surprised at that bite too.


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## CorvusCorax (17 September 2012)

She initially went for his hand when he went for the food bowl at 0.18....which was when he upped the ante and the dog showed a bit of noise and teeth, then calmed down and relaxed.

The bite when he was talking to the owner, she went for him at about 1.12 without provocation, he withdrew and she went for him again and meant it at 1.13. Then the body language after that was completely calm again and relaxed.
I heard children mentioned, I would not want that dog around children but it is hard to know the context/environmental influences on her behaviour.


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## dunthing (17 September 2012)

Poor dog, her whole body language was wrong. I don't know why he feels the need to tower over the dog. We have always had labs, rescued and straight from the breeder as pups. I have never seen one that bad. I would have thought it was better to get down at her level and sit a little distance from her, rather than crowding into her space. Lots of work needed on her. I certainly wouldn't trust her around kids.


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## s4sugar (17 September 2012)

I have seen labs just like that one.
I would not want it near children -fine 99% of the time and then just like a switch being flicked.


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## Dobiegirl (17 September 2012)

Its got to be genetic, I wouldnt want a dog like that, she did attack when under no pressure and gave very mixed signals. I dont like his method of dominence though she struck me as a nervy dog.


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## dunthing (17 September 2012)

Maybe it's something to do with the breeding but it's not something I have come across with any of ours. My kids have labs and I was brought up with them, luckily none were like that. Our latest is now 7 months old and an absolute superstar. Very obedient and has never shown anger towards people or other dogs.


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## amy_b (17 September 2012)

If Im honest, I wouldnt give a dog a second chance to do that again.
Without getting into CM right/wrong debate somebody could do what he did (towering etc) by accident and come to the same fate and also IMO that wasnt a 'get away from my food' that was a full attack. 
One bite, one nip I would work with. That, I would not. 
Timebomb.


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## lexiedhb (17 September 2012)

I think just his presence made a nervous dog even more so. Many many dogs would have disliked this man after the initial stand off over the food bowl. Most would have reacted to him being so up in their face no?


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## CorvusCorax (17 September 2012)

He wasn't up in her face when she bit him, and BIT him and hung on, that was not a warning, she waited until he was no longer threatening, that is what would worry me. 

I think there is a big issue in America with puppy farmers flooding the market with pisspoor quality Labradors due to the popularity of Marley & Me, which are then bought as 'family dogs' - they even have a white picket fence....


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## krlyr (17 September 2012)

The body language is not that of a relaxed dog, even when she is laying down. If someone had just come at you like that in a pub for no apparent reason, would you be able to sit back at your table with the aggressor sitting right next to you and relax completely? If he suddenly lurched towards you again, a few minutes after the previous attack, your reaction would probably be more defensive in anticipation of more aggressive behaviour - if you slapped him, your reaction could look aggressive to someone who had just walked into the pub a few seconds before, but the reaction needs to be taken into context with the whole situation.
Even laying down, she keeps avoiding making eye contact with him, yawning, licking her lips, her body weight is pulled away from him and so on. And then to plonk his hand on her muzzle - an action that many dogs find uncomfortable anyway, let alone one that has just gone through a stressful interaction that he just did. It's not out of the blue aggression, it's a supposed expert on dogs creating a situation where there is a dog coiled up with fear and then pushing it until it explodes.
Even then, the dog acted fairly restrained - a bite to his hand, which was the body part threatening her, and then again with the avoidance/appeasement behaviours post bite - when she could have easily continued the attack. This is not a dog that wants to bite for no reason.


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## lexiedhb (17 September 2012)

Quite possibly CC- but he put that dog on edge, not all dogs chill instantly- I know mine took 24hrs after one horrendous session with his behaviourist- CM must know this.

He goes to touch the already stressed dog.... she air snaps..... instead of just walking away quickly he towers over her, she bars her teeth- THEN bites. 

So IMO it was not totally unprovoked. - far far from ideal behaviour obviously


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## PolarSkye (17 September 2012)

I actually think it's irrelevant whether or not CM did or not get up in the dog's face . . . he didn't do anything an uneducated adult or young child might not do inadvertently . . . move the food, make a sudden movement towards the dog's face . . . and IMHO that dog is dangerous and shouldn't be in a family home.  Sad really.

P


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## lexiedhb (17 September 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			I actually think it's irrelevant whether or not CM did or not get up in the dog's face . . . he didn't do anything an uneducated adult or young child might not do inadvertently . . . move the food, make a sudden movement towards the dog's face . . . and IMHO that dog is dangerous and shouldn't be in a family home.  Sad really.

P
		
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It does matter because that dog was STRESSED.... it was not in an everyday situation- a stranger shoved it off its food, and stressed her- we all have the ability to act out of character whilst under pressure/ in a stressful situation.


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## CorvusCorax (17 September 2012)

A dog that cannot deal with pressure, is not the best sort of dog to be a family dog/around kids. 
I am not sure I would call her 'nervous', but I am only looking at a short period of footage and we may all have different descriptions of different behaviours.

The biggest mistake he made, IMO, was taking his eyes off her.


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## Spudlet (17 September 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			He wasn't up in her face when she bit him, and BIT him and hung on, that was not a warning, she waited until he was no longer threatening, that is what would worry me. 

I think there is a big issue in America with puppy farmers flooding the market with pisspoor quality Labradors due to the popularity of Marley & Me, which are then bought as 'family dogs' - they even have a white picket fence....
		
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No he wasn't, but what she did have was a camera crew on one side and him on the other - so essentially she was surrounded. I can see how that might contribute to a nervy dog biting.

I certainly agree about Labs with poor temperaments mind you, not just in America but also over here. Victims of their own popularity, poor sods. And to be fair many dogs would not react as she did in that situation. However, I can see how that situation would arise.


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## Dobiegirl (17 September 2012)

I agree with CC, the first was a nip and then she followed it up with a full on bite and meant it, all this when he was backing away. The fact she was giving mixed signals worried me, how do you read a dog like that, I know it was just a snapshot in time but my overall impression was a dog with a genetic problem and as CC said probabley poorly bred.


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## krlyr (17 September 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			I actually think it's irrelevant whether or not CM did or not get up in the dog's face . . . he didn't do anything an uneducated adult or young child might not do inadvertently . . . move the food, make a sudden movement towards the dog's face . . . and IMHO that dog is dangerous and shouldn't be in a family home.  Sad really.

P
		
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Before I get lumped in as the "fluffy brigade" who'd let my dogs do anything...I don't disagree that _something_ needs to be done but I don't know many young children who would act so aggressively towards a dog. I think his behaviour was very unnecessary - Victoria Stilwell manages to address resource guarding without pushing a dog to bite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjpP5EZC7HI&feature=player_embedded

My dogs resource guard on a very rare occasion - I know the trigger precisely actually, it's only when they get fed a whole raw rabbit (they're rawfed). They're a high value treat and they will not tolerate being approached by the other dog. I can go and take the rabbit away if I wanted to but I don't need to, so I don't. I keep them separate (used to use a physical barrier but don't need to any more), I monitor them at all times, and I would never feed it if there were visitors around, so no risk of them getting caught in the middle of a scrap if things were to go wrong. Simple methods that don't require pushing the dogs into reacting. 

If you actually watch most dogs, including the dog in Cesar's video, you will notice them throwing out so many warnings - it would have been easy for anyone to avoid getting bitten by this dog because it made its discomfort so obvious. I think my doggy-clueless boyfriend could get the hint from this dog, and I know several non-dog owners/people with very limited dog experience have watched this video and picked up on how uncomfortable the dog is. A totally unnecessary, aggressive method designed to push the dog beyond its limits for "good" TV.

I don't think the dog was sending mixed messages at all, and would expect a so-called "dog whisperer" to find the dog's body language a lot easier to interpret that any old Joe Bloggs. I think most people would have the common sense not to try to stroke the face of a dog that has a history of aggression and that has just given so many clear warnings a few minutes prior, no matter how "relaxed" it seemed (which, again, I still stand by my view that the dog was showing plenty of signs it wasn't actually relaxed, which he'd have seen if he'd been watching it), let alone someone who claims to be a dog behaviourist.


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## Amymay (17 September 2012)

but I don't know many young children who would act so aggressively towards a dog
		
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What aggression did CM exhibit?


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## Tizzy (17 September 2012)

Jesus, I wouldnt have that dog near any children. Yes it may be fine 99% of the time, but theres that 1%, as this dog has shown, which could potentially do some very serious damage to a young child.

The dog went for CM when he was standing there addressing the owner, not paying attention to the dog. There was no eye contact from CM to the dog in order for there to be that sort of a reaction. By this point the whole food situation had passed and CM was inbetween the dog and the food.

This wasnt a 'warning' nip, this dog went for him and held on. CM had to kick it to make it let go.

CM 'towers' over the dog at the end to assert dominance and authority. The dog has to make the choice to back down and be submissive and know that that sort of behaviour wont be tollerated. The dog is not in charge, humans are.


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## krlyr (17 September 2012)

amymay said:



			What aggression did CM exhibit?
		
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Would you not feel intimidated if someone twice your size approached you like that when you were trying to eat your dinner? Hovered over you until you "submitted"? And then sat down right next to you, and reached out to you again? 

Like I said before, saying that the dog bit CM when he was just sitting there is taking the action out of context. We, as humans, can react seemingly irrationally after a frightening event (think of someone screaming when they feel a tickle on their neck, if they've just come out of a garden shed full of spiders, or jumping from fright at every 'bang' they hear after a nasty car accident), the dog has been stressed to its limit (and prior to that, managed to restrain itself enough to not bite) so the hand approaching its face (like I said, many dogs dislike this action anyway - which is why patting a dog on its head isn't recommended) may not have been aggressive itself but the dog was still stressed out and reacted that extremely because of the prior events.


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## PolarSkye (17 September 2012)

lexiedhb said:



			It does matter because that dog was STRESSED.... it was not in an everyday situation- a stranger shoved it off its food, and stressed her- we all have the ability to act out of character whilst under pressure/ in a stressful situation.
		
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If either of my dogs behaved like that when stressed they'd be taking a one-way trip to the vet.  Family life can be stressful.  Young children are noisy and unpredictable.  Friends, young and old, come over and may not always know how to be respectful of a stressed out dog.  I quite agree that stressed animals (like stressed people) can manifest behaviour that is quite out of character - but there's "out of character" and then there's aggressive/dangerous.  

P


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## Amymay (17 September 2012)

Intimidating behaviour is not necessarily aggressive behaviour.

I don't profess to know much about dog training.  But quite frankly the dogs reaction was completely over the top.  I don't think CM was aggressive, merely assertive. And nothing he did deserved to get him bitten.


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## lexiedhb (17 September 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			If either of my dogs behaved like that when stressed they'd be taking a one-way trip to the vet.  Family life can be stressful.  Young children are noisy and unpredictable.  Friends, young and old, come over and may not always know how to be respectful of a stressed out dog.  I quite agree that stressed animals (like stressed people) can manifest behaviour that is quite out of character - but there's "out of character" and then there's aggressive/dangerous.  

P
		
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Stress due to family life massively different to stress by a stranger acting in a quite threatening way.


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## krlyr (17 September 2012)

Tizzy said:



			By this point the whole food situation had passed and CM was inbetween the dog and the food.
		
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But the point is, it wasn't over. If someone acted like that to you, would you forget the incident two minutes later, especially if that person was hovering by near you, even if they started talking to someone else? Chances are, you would remain on edge while they were around, perhaps even for a while afterwards. It's nature, it would be a pretty stupid survival instinct to just immediately relax while a threat was right there next to you.
It may not seem rational for the dog to bite someone sitting there ignoring them but the dog is in a state of fear - if CM watched it, he could notice that (like I said - the dog leaning away from him, licking its lips, yawning, purposely avoiding eye contact etc. are all appeasement signs screaming out that the dog is not relaxed - may not be spotted by everyone but a dog behaviourist should be able to recognise these things!) and its reaction caused by that. 
Not saying it means the dog is to be trusted around children but it is not what I would call a truly aggressive dog, it did not just bite for the sake of biting. I think many dogs would bite when pushed that far (maybe not in regards to food, but when stressed out to that point) and we have to respect the fact that they are animals that will react to fear, pain, etc. 
Would you say that every horse that kicks or bites someone is an aggressive horse? Or would you look at the actions surrounding that behaviour to find a trigger? Would you think..well, maybe the horse is scared when snuck up from behind, or isn't comfortable having its feet handled, or doesn't like the loud noises of a lorry passing by? 
I don't see an irrationally aggressive dog in that video, I see one that acts with far more restraint and gives far more clues with its body language than the supposed dog behaviourist does.


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## stencilface (17 September 2012)

I honestly don't think that poor dog knew what it was supposed to be doing.  My dog isn't aggressive in the slightest, I have taken food and bones off him before (just to see if it was possible, it is so now he gets left well alone!) but I don't think he would be at all comfortable with that.


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## PolarSkye (17 September 2012)

krlyr said:



			Would you not feel intimidated if someone twice your size approached you like that when you were trying to eat your dinner? Hovered over you until you "submitted"? And then sat down right next to you, and reached out to you again? 

Like I said before, saying that the dog bit CM when he was just sitting there is taking the action out of context. We, as humans, can react seemingly irrationally after a frightening event (think of someone screaming when they feel a tickle on their neck, if they've just come out of a garden shed full of spiders, or jumping from fright at every 'bang' they hear after a nasty car accident), the dog has been stressed to its limit (and prior to that, managed to restrain itself enough to not bite) so the hand approaching its face (like I said, many dogs dislike this action anyway - which is why patting a dog on its head isn't recommended) may not have been aggressive itself but the dog was still stressed out and reacted that extremely because of the prior events.
		
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How I would react if I felt intimidated is, again, irrelevant - I have the power of speech and would choose to either say something like "would you mind giving me a little space please" or (more likely) picking up my dinner and going somewhere else.  I am not a dog.

I accept that Holly was stressed . . . and I accept that CM's body language and methods were possibly making her more stressed, but at the point when she actually grabbed his hand and held on he had taken the pressure off - that's what I find so troubling.  

What's to stop a toddler inadvertently putting a hand out near a stressed-out Holly and having Holly respond as she did with CM?  

I don't particularly want to be drawn into whether CM is a quack or not . . . for me the point is that Holly isn't a suitable family pet and she certainly shouldn't live with young children.

P


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## krlyr (17 September 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			How I would feel if I felt intimidated is, again, irrelevant - I have the power of speech and would choose to either say something like "would you mind giving me a little space please" or (more likely) picking up my dinner and going somewhere else.  I am not a dog.
		
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Holly _is_ saying that - in her own language. Like I said, wouldn't expect everyone to know what she was saying but I would expect a dog behaviourist to have a good knowledge of dog body language.
http://petsmiles.com/blog/archives/2046448
In what we can see from the camera angles, I spot at least one yawn, two mouth/nose licks, tons of head turns and her leaning back trying to create distance without moving away (the camera man to her left is possibly preventing her actually moving)

If you kept asking for space and then found this bloke's mate sitting the other side of the table, not allowing you to get up and leave, and then he approached you _again_, how would you react? Many people may be pushed into defending themselves, be it swinging a punch, a slap, a shove out of the way - I wouldn't call such a person aggressive when it was in self-defence after trying every other method of avoidance.

I too would question her suitability of living with children, because of the unpredictable nature of a child (I think this dog's behaviour was quite predictable but you cannot always monitor or predict the actions of a young child), but I think in an adult/mature teenage household she could certain be managed and trained using alternative methods with no need to "dominate" over her (interestingly studies have shown the dominance heirachy to not even exist in wolves). All CM did is show that a dog pushed to its limits may bite. Maybe the owners needed to see that to realise there was a risk around a child, but any decent behaviourist could tell you that without actually having to 'go there'. Just an unnecessary exercise done for 'exciting' TV.


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## Tizzy (17 September 2012)

krlyr said:



			But the point is, it wasn't over. If someone acted like that to you, would you forget the incident two minutes later.
		
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It was over for the dog.

When a dog does something wrong, do you tell it off/scold it there and then so it knows that its behaviour wasnt acceptable with what it had just done. Or do you wait 5 minutes and then tell it off?

A dog would not remember why it was being told off a period after the incident. By then it has forgotten.

CM was not acting aggressivly towards this dog, he was merely asserting his authority. CM/humans are the 'provider' of food.


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## PolarSkye (17 September 2012)

lexiedhb said:



			Stress due to family life massively different to stress by a stranger acting in a quite threatening way.
		
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I actually think Holly would have reacted the same way if a family member had dared to move her food . . . and I don't know about you, but we sometimes have non-family members in the house - strangers to the dogs - some of them not at all dog-savvy.  

I'm afraid I'm sticking with my original point which is that Holly's reaction was disproportionate and that she, sadly, isn't terribly suitable as a family pet.  Not her fault.  Possibly not even her owners' fault.  Certainly not CM's fault either.

P


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## TBB (17 September 2012)

Does anyone know what happened later in the show with Holly?


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## lexiedhb (17 September 2012)

Tizzy said:



			It was over for the dog.

When a dog does something wrong, do you tell it off/scold it there and then so it knows that its behaviour wasnt acceptable with what it had just done. Or do you wait 5 minutes and then tell it off?

A dog would not remember why it was being told off a period after the incident. By then it has forgotten.

CM was not acting aggressivly towards this dog, he was merely asserting his authority. CM/humans are the 'provider' of food.
		
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A dog can remain stressed though. The dog may have forgotten the "reason" but that does not mean it's emotional state has returned to normal.


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## Dobiegirl (17 September 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			I actually think Holly would have reacted the same way if a family member had dared to move her food . . . and I don't know about you, but we sometimes have non-family members in the house - strangers to the dogs - some of them not at all dog-savvy.  

I'm afraid I'm sticking with my original point which is that Holly's reaction was disproportionate and that she, sadly, isn't terribly suitable as a family pet.  Not her fault.  Possibly not even her owners' fault.  Certainly not CM's fault either.

P
		
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Why isnt there a like button.

Im sure this is quite common behaviour for this dog hence CM being involved, he is not going to wait around all day and wait for it to happen. He has put the dog in a position where he hopes for a reaction which the family have experienced but he never expected the dog to react   when the threat
was withdrawn which is not normal behaviour for a dog.


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## Jools1234 (17 September 2012)

mine never have but if they snapped at someone and that person backed off then that dog attacked (and Holly did) they would soon be an x dog

wonder what this dog would be like if a toddler walked past with something tasty in its hand?

could you imagine if that had been a toddlers face?

even if we agree that CM was making the dog stressed it chose to attack not get away that shouts time bomb to me


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## lexiedhb (17 September 2012)

What i dont understand in all of this is the need to be able to take away food that you have given to your dog to eat.?????

Ok potentially a kid could put its hand in the dog bowl etc etc - so feed the dog behind a shut door. 

If someone walked over to me whilst I was eating and tried to remove my food they would not get a positive reaction either.


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## stencilface (17 September 2012)

jools1234 said:



			wonder what this dog would be like if a toddler walked past with something tasty in its hand?
		
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I admit to my dog stealing a burger from my friends hand - not aggressively, it was just at the right height!


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## ihatework (17 September 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			I actually think Holly would have reacted the same way if a family member had dared to move her food . . . and I don't know about you, but we sometimes have non-family members in the house - strangers to the dogs - some of them not at all dog-savvy.  

I'm afraid I'm sticking with my original point which is that Holly's reaction was disproportionate and that she, sadly, isn't terribly suitable as a family pet.  Not her fault.  Possibly not even her owners' fault.  Certainly not CM's fault either.

P
		
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Couldn't agree more.
TBH if she were mine she would be dropped off at the vets and not come back, harsh maybe, but unfortunately true.


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## Dobiegirl (17 September 2012)

I wonder if Holly has had a full work up at the vets that would be my first port of call before a behaviourist.


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## MurphysMinder (17 September 2012)

Although I have seen CM on stage that is the first time I have seen him dealing with that sort of situation, hats off to the guy for continuing .  To me whatever the reason that is an unpredictable dog and I am afraid she would be going one a one way journey if she were mine.
Lexie,  I do not make a habit of taking food from my dogs as adults, but do it occasionally.  When they are pups they learn to eat from a bowl with me holding it, with my hands in it etc so they hopefully never become food possessive with people.  I do not have a problem with them guarding their food from other dogs and always feed mine separately.  With regard to stealing food from children, that is a slightly different scenario as hopefully there would be no resource guarding involved.  I had a GSD who managed to remove the ice cream from the cornet a small child was holding as we walked past them at a show.  Didn't even realise what had happened until the child started complaining, luckily the parents thought it was hilarious.


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## noodle_ (17 September 2012)

I hate CM and this is why - I find HIM aggressive.... his whole bodylanguage being up close and personal and so threatening i would be scared of him....never mind the poor dog....

the 2nd bite was from (imo!) a nervy dog who saw an aggressive/scary guy in front of her....


Thats my opinion on what i saw - i wouldnt let CM within a mile of my dogs......


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## noodle_ (17 September 2012)

forgot to also say  - from the begining of my dogs life i have (and regularly do)! stick my hands in their food bowls - take them away  - ask them to move back etc...


they could be eating a whole chicken and i could pull them off non-aggresive....they wouldnt dream of doing anything like that - as ive done it from day 1


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## Jools1234 (17 September 2012)

Stencilface said:



			I admit to my dog stealing a burger from my friends hand - not aggressively, it was just at the right height! 

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one of mine will steal food out of anyones hands if it within reach she will more often than not take, BUT she wont bite you to get it

Holly snapped CM backed of and then she attacked i see a dangerous dog that i would not hesitate in having PTS, for everyone comparing the dogs feelings to that of a human you are missing a fundemental point Holly is a DOG so she does not think and feel the same as you-too many dogs are not PTS after dangerous actions on their part, people need to realise the dog does not know it is not coming home.

i took a good friends terrier to the vets earlier this year as they had a new baby in the house and the dog was getting more and more stressed and snappy-now things could have been worked on and the dog given more time and exersize but the whole house was being controlled by what had become an unpleasant dog she was PTS and the house is a much happier one for it-although they wont ever get another dog as they realise they did not do the right thing by this one. i think it was the right decision and a brave one


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## Jools1234 (17 September 2012)

'obviously im still very aware ANY dog could snap - im not stupid...but i do trust and know them well enough to know they wouldnt snap.'

noodle_ you have completely contradicted yourself in one sentence-is it intentional?


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## noodle_ (17 September 2012)

haha no i got carried away with what i was chatting... 


i will just finish with saying "i hate CM".... end of from me


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## Jools1234 (17 September 2012)

i do that


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## krlyr (17 September 2012)

jools1234 said:



			Holly snapped CM backed of and then she attacked i see a dangerous dog that i would not hesitate in having PTS, for everyone comparing the dogs feelings to that of a human you are missing a fundemental point Holly is a DOG so she does not think and feel the same as you-too many dogs are not PTS after dangerous actions on their part, people need to realise the dog does not know it is not coming home.
		
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My comparison to human situations is merely to try to explain some of the possible reasoning nehind the dog's behaviour. Yes, we are not dogs and they are not humans, but we are all animals and share many of the same instinctive behaviours. 
It is a survival technique to remain wary of someone who has just acted aggressively towards you - CM has not backed off, he is still right in the vicinity, waving his arms around (which the dog will be wary of, considering CM has been waving his arms all in her face, hitting her in the face etc. minutes before) and then reaches out to her yet again. He may have snatched his hand back but he did not back off from a cornered dog (camera crew one side, owner the other, dog could not retreat any further)
Also, what you see is a dog bite. What you don't see is a prolonged attack, a dog lashing out at anyone or anything - the bite is very specific, it was a bite and hold to the hand that has just been poking and hitting at her. A controlled bite and hold to a hand that had been given absolutely bucketloads of warning signals. I'm not justifying a bite, but this dog was forced into this situation yet still showed a lot of restraint even then. Cats certainly get away with a lot more biting and scratching for minor reasons like not wanting a belly tickle, we cannot expect dogs to be robots that would never bite no matter how hard we pushed them.

I certainly agree with you that dogs do not understand the concept of euthanasia and that it may be kinder in many situations. I certainly would rather take my dog for that one-way trip than hand them over to CM, any day, but these are not the only options. The dog's behaviour is very specific - resource guarding, so not without a trigger. The dog was very restrained up to a certain point, another plus for it - that says to me that the dog could be managed quite efficiently, especially as it gave very clear signals of its discomfort with its body language, and displayed many signs of wanting to avoid confrontation if it had another choice. We cannot judge the sitaution from a short clip but from what I saw here and in another video of Holly, I think a dog like this could easily be managed in the short term (feeding in a crate or behind a babygate, never leaving chews down, either keeping the baby separate or rehoming to a child-free house, etc., and then rehabiliated with much less physical methods than CM favours, in my opinion.


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## Jools1234 (17 September 2012)

krlyr said:



			My comparison to human situations is merely to try to explain some of the possible reasoning nehind the dog's behaviour. Yes, we are not dogs and they are not humans, but we are all animals and share many of the same instinctive behaviours. 
It is a survival technique to remain wary of someone who has just acted aggressively towards you - CM has not backed off, he is still right in the vicinity, waving his arms around (which the dog will be wary of, considering CM has been waving his arms all in her face, hitting her in the face etc. minutes before) and then reaches out to her yet again. He may have snatched his hand back but he did not back off from a cornered dog (camera crew one side, owner the other, dog could not retreat any further)
Also, what you see is a dog bite. What you don't see is a prolonged attack, a dog lashing out at anyone or anything - the bite is very specific, it was a bite and hold to the hand that has just been poking and hitting at her. A controlled bite and hold to a hand that had been given absolutely bucketloads of warning signals. I'm not justifying a bite, but this dog was forced into this situation yet still showed a lot of restraint even then. Cats certainly get away with a lot more biting and scratching for minor reasons like not wanting a belly tickle, we cannot expect dogs to be robots that would never bite no matter how hard we pushed them.

I certainly agree with you that dogs do not understand the concept of euthanasia and that it may be kinder in many situations. I certainly would rather take my dog for that one-way trip than hand them over to CM, any day, but these are not the only options. The dog's behaviour is very specific - resource guarding, so not without a trigger. The dog was very restrained up to a certain point, another plus for it - that says to me that the dog could be managed quite efficiently, especially as it gave very clear signals of its discomfort with its body language, and displayed many signs of wanting to avoid confrontation if it had another choice. We cannot judge the sitaution from a short clip but from what I saw here and in another video of Holly, I think a dog like this could easily be managed in the short term (feeding in a crate or behind a babygate, never leaving chews down, either keeping the baby separate or rehoming to a child-free house, etc., and then rehabiliated with much less physical methods than CM favours, in my opinion.
		
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In my opinion re-homing a dog that has bitten (not snapped) is irresponsible.
I think we have to agree to disagree on the rest of too, i never saw CM hit the dog in the face either-he poked her on her neck in the same way another dog would use its teeth.


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## Fools Motto (17 September 2012)

Like or hate CM, that, to me looks like a confused dog. At the time of the bite, I didn't see it coming. She meant it too. 
Bet that hurt!

Either you leave her in peace with her food (if it is purely food orientated) as I can't see it being 'fixed', or due to the unpredictability of the dog, PTS. 
I certainly think that no child should be in the same household as this dog. 

(and for the record, I don't mind CM and appreciate some of his methods do work on most dogs)


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## blackcob (17 September 2012)

The issue as I see it, krlyr, is that although the clip we saw was an orchestrated situation it is one that could very easily occur in any household. CM is deliberately putting pressure on the dog here but any adult or especially a child could do this completely by accident. 

I don't actually think it's too much to expect of (most) dogs not to lash out under (most) circumstances. For every dog like the lab in the clip there's a thousand others who would back off the bowl, sit and wait patiently and thump their tail when a hand is extended towards them. Those are the family pets. To keep a dog 100% separate behind a gate or kennelled outside away from family life, walked solo etc. is at best a burden and a misery for both parties and, at worst, a timebomb - everyone makes mistakes. 

I didn't expect the bite either, as far as I could see the food bowl issue had passed, CM took the pressure off and was looking away, dog was giving mixed signals but some placatory ones.


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## CorvusCorax (17 September 2012)

Agree with everything PS has said and chuckling a bit that anyone who reads the dog's body language differently is 'clueless'.

I've seen a lot of dogs bite in different situations, but in a controlled environment in 'fabricated' circumstances, I see a lot of pressure applied to dogs in different ways, and none of them so far has chosen the option that Holly chose or reacted in that fashion, especially when the pressure was off.


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## krlyr (17 September 2012)

I don't disagree that the dog could be pushed to react this way by anyone else too - my point is, what is the purpose of pushing the dog that far? The owner knows the dog has resource guarding issues, the owner knows they have a child that will eventually be toddling around the house. They either accept that it will require very, very strict management or they accept that their household is not the best for the dog or the safest to have both dog and child in..so choose to rehome or euthanise.
I just don't see who benefits from pushing this dog so far, other than CM and his TV show ratings. As a so-called expert in dogs, CM must realise that the dog will react to being pushed and pushed. He may not have expected the bite at that moment but he has to have expected some kind of reaction. Yes, most dogs ideally won't react but this is a dog with a known issue, with known resource guarding displayed as aggression. 

The man has no understanding of dog behaviour - pushing the dog and then "dominating" it with stares will not cure its issue, it will teach the dog that its gentler warning signs get ignored and it will have to resort to more drastic measures, like witnessed in the video. 

I have to disagree that the pressure was taken off and that the issue had passed, the dog was obviously still in a stressed state, giving off lots of non-mixed signals (very clearly wanting space that CM was not giving it by sitting where he was sitting and waving his arms around infront of and above the dog). I think the situation could have been much more efficiently diffused by CM walking away - even if he truly believes that dominating a dog works, surely he should be teaching it that submission works by walking away once it has submitted?


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## Amymay (17 September 2012)

it will teach the dog that its gentler warning signs get ignored
		
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Which gentler warning signs would they be, the growling, snarling or snapping?


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## lexiedhb (17 September 2012)

amymay said:



			Which gentler warning signs would they be, the growling, snarling or snapping?
		
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Much more gentle than the bite!!


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## krlyr (17 September 2012)

amymay said:



			Which gentler warning signs would they be, the growling, snarling or snapping?
		
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Turning away the head (this dog is absolutely loathe to make eye contact with CM), licking the lips/nose (again, doing this a lot, even when growling), yawning, moving the body to face away, pining the ears back, the dog is throwing out appeasement signals in bucketloads.
I wouldn't call growling a particular nasty method of communication either - many people mistakenly punish a growl but it's just a method of communicating discomfort, fear and so on. A growl that is punished or ignored will just lead to the dog progressing to a snap, and when that fails to get the desired response (which, in most cases, is for some space) the dog has to progress to the next stage, which may be a bite.


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## CorvusCorax (17 September 2012)

That's a big garden. The dog could have gone anywhere...in fact she could have gone to her owner as a safe haven, but she is targeting the man, in this case CM, very specifically.


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## Spudlet (17 September 2012)

amymay said:



			Which gentler warning signs would they be, the growling, snarling or snapping?
		
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Say not gentler warning signs, but earlier warning signs, if you feel more comfortable with that. The fact is that growling is a sign that says 'I don't like this, stop it!' Take that away and you can end up with a dog that launches in with a bite without any obvious signs such as growling - as was the case with the US TV presenter who was bitten on the face by a dog on her show last year. In that case, there was no growl of warning - there were more subtle signs but many people would have missed them and as a result of this the presenter was seriously hurt.

I don't think that the dog was to 'blame' here as such - but as I said, many dogs would not have reacted with a bite to that situation. Whether or not this makes her a general danger, who can say - certainly not me from that one little clip. Would I have her as a family dog - no, I don't think so, I would want a more solid temperament with no nerviness at all for that job. But that's not to say she is completely beyond help - like I said, I can't tell either way.


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## Spudlet (17 September 2012)

Just one more thought. As a rider, I have had it drummed into me that when things go wrong, I blame myself before the horse. I look at myself, to see what I could have done differently, or should have done better, first and foremost. So should the same principle not apply to dog handling? When things go wrong, should we not be asking ourselves what we did wrong - did we misread the signs, were we unclear in what we wanted, did we give the wrong message out?


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## amy_b (17 September 2012)

Spudlet said:



			Just one more thought. As a rider, I have had it drummed into me that when things go wrong, I blame myself before the horse. I look at myself, to see what I could have done differently, or should have done better, first and foremost. So should the same principle not apply to dog handling? When things go wrong, should we not be asking ourselves what we did wrong - did we misread the signs, were we unclear in what we wanted, did we give the wrong message out?
		
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yes, but if it is dangerous it still has the same outcome.


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## Spudlet (17 September 2012)

amy_b said:



			yes, but if it is dangerous it still has the same outcome.
		
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But the point I'm trying to make is, speaking generally and not about this one Lab, is _is_ it dangerous? Or are we all a bit quick to yell 'That dog is dangerous!' when actually, the dog in question just needed to be handled in a way different to the one that we chose?

I'll put it another way... I alpha-rolled my dog once, and he snapped at me. Who was at fault? Me. Has he ever snapped since? No. Do I handle him differently now? Yes. Would some people have shrieked 'Vicious dog! Keep him away from children!'? Probably yes...

But is he actually dangerous, to children or anyone else? No.


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## FestiveBoomBoom (17 September 2012)

I do like CM but seeing as his mantra is 'projecting calm assertive energy' I really don't think he was in this case. I didn't like the way he adopted that ninja type position, it looked very threatening and he did reach out to touch her nose when she snapped, it's not like it came completely out of the blue. Having said that her reaction was extreme and no doubt she will be removed from the family. I'd like to watch the entire episode to get a better idea about the dogs personality and temperament, has it been on tv yet?


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## whisp&willow (17 September 2012)

that dog would be on a one way trip to the vets if it were mine.  if it had just snapped and left it then that's one thing.  i wouldn't want it in my home, and i would not want to pass it on knowing that it may do the same to somebody, somewhere, sometime.  

personally i would never take a chance with a dog which has nervous issues.  i know many people do, and manage to make things work, but it is not something i would be prepared to do.  

the snap was a "warning"  before the full on bite, but i didn't see it coming and it was a gross over reaction from the dog IMO.  i just don't see the point in owning a ticking bomb.  i would never trust the dog, and it would pick up on that, along with my feelings of fear-  i don't see how that would make for a happy ending.


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## MileAMinute (17 September 2012)

Poor dog.


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## Always Henesy (17 September 2012)

Cobrastyle said:



			Poor dog.
		
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No, not poor dog.

Have you seen the damage a dog can do to a child? That dog made a good enough job on CM's hand. 
A warning snap maybe, but a full on unprovoked attack like that and I'm afraid that dog would be away to the vet pronto.


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## Alec Swan (17 September 2012)

That vid really surprised me.  

That dog had "Hard case" stamped all over it.  The dog was confident,  it was assured,  it knew what it was doing and was going to do,  and I can assure you all,  that short of killing the dog on camera,  which was not about to happen,  the dog was not there to be beaten!!  I had a sneaking admiration for it,  as I suspect that CM did too!! 

The reality is that he pushed his luck with a dog which had never heard of him,  or his reputation.   I'm CM's fan,  generally,  but that was rank stupidity,  in my view.  He pushed the dog,  thinking that it would back down,  it didn't,  it wouldn't,  and he paid the price.  I had a GSD which was similar to that thing once,  and once I'd got the hang of keeping outside his space,  we got on fine,  but I too had a learning curve. 

To CM's credit,  he took it without whinging,  and without complaint,  but that dog taught him a lesson,  I hope.  Respect to both of them!! 

For that particular dog,  I can't really see an outcome of any value.  It didn't have the stand-up aggression,  or the weight to back it up,  for man work,  and never EVER would I allow it to be in the company of small children.  Presumably someone's given it a bullet.

Alec.


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## krlyr (17 September 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			That dog had "Hard case" stamped all over it.  The dog was confident,  it was assured,  it knew what it was doing and was going to do,  and I can assure you all,  that short of killing the dog on camera,  which was not about to happen,  the dog was not there to be beaten!!  I had a sneaking admiration for it,  as I suspect that CM did too!! 

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Must have been watching a different video to you then because I did not see confidence in that dog at all.


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## stargirl88 (17 September 2012)

Despite thinking CM has an unfavourable way of dealing with some things (although his ninja-stance during that video amused me a bit  ) that reaction was still OTT. But then again, had the dog actually ever bitten to such a degree before? Depending on the level of aggression it was actually showing towards it family, I just do not understand why the dog needs to be pushed to its limit, and 'tested' on how it will react to an extreme situation to make a judgement on its behaviour. Perhaps CM was the limit for that dog, its reaction to him and his arm could have been for a number of reasons.
If I know that Ive got a dog that guards its food, though, I dont push it for a reaction and then hang around waiting for it to "submit" to my strange ninja-moves.........


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## NeverSayNever (17 September 2012)

ouch.

i personally cannot stand ceaser milan, I think hes a prize twerp. To me the dog was giving off clear signals and he made matters worse by adopting such a dominant and threatening posture, around a food bowl. A dog like that cannot be fixed in a 30 minute TV show. The bite when it came was severe though, it was not a defensive nip, it was a grab and hold on I mean to hurt you type. I wouldnt be keeping a dog like that although I do feel he made it ten times worse.


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## EAST KENT (17 September 2012)

Why do humans have this obsession with being able to fuddle with a dog`s dinner? In a pack it would starve if it backed off anything that tried to steal it`s grub.My puppies are taught to be stroked and moved around whilst feeding,that is it..I don`t want their food and nor should anyone else.Feed them,leave them alone a while to finish,remove bowl.Yes,if a dog then bowl guards when finished there is a problem,the cure is to ADD a little more food reward to the bowl..so you are actually welcomed near the resource.As for kids..well how about giving them some rules?? Like if the dog is asleep in it`s bed,or chewing a toy,or eating..keep away and leave it in peace.I was taught this..and got a thump and "serves you right" if I was stupid enough to ignore the rules.
   My own training methods are old style as CM,but with a bit of VS thrown in on the food reward system,combined it works just fine. No wonder I prefer my puppies to live in an adult or teen kids household.We ask too much of dogs these days.


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## TrasaM (17 September 2012)

krlyr;

The man has no understanding of dog behaviour - pushing the dog and then "dominating" it with stares will not cure its issue said:
			
		


			Dog's gentler warning signs? Snarling is gentle !! The dog had issues with resource guarding which is not acceptable in any situation let alone if it's around children. CM has a policy that once he engages with a dog that backing down is not an option as it merely empowers the dog more..like with children . The dog had not submitted and I think he'd remarked on that to the owner just before the dog bit him. Glad to see he gave it a good kick too.
Really admire him sticking with it as it looked like a bad bite..however Im really surprised he didn't do the usual and use a tennis racquet as he usually does in these type of cases.  
Has anyone seen the full program and what happened to it afterwards?
		
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## Booboos (17 September 2012)

The dog is clearly dangerous but that's why its owner asked for specialist help. It's no good being a behaviourist for dogs that are perfectly fine or have minor behavioural issues. In this case CM got it totally wrong and made things worse. For me it illustrates exactly the problem with confrontational approaches, that is, they only work out if one of the two parties is willing to back down, otherwise you get a horrible escallation. You are then stuck with having to make a decision about the dog's future in light of the escallation which is not an easy decision to make - I am afraid I would also PTS this dog now.

On the food issue I think it's a very sensible thing to teach all dogs to allow humans to take away their food at any time and under any circumstances. I once had the following little heart stopping moment: one of my dogs was eating a treat, another one tried to take it. The original dog was holding his own with both dogs growling at each other. I was just walking across the room to deal with it, when a friend's young child run into the room, put his hand between the two growling dogs and took the treat. I was so relieved that both dogs packed in the growling and took a step away from the treat as soon as a human was involved. The whole thing happened in seconds and it's the kind of thing you cannot gurantee you will avoid, all you can do is train and hope the training kicks in when you need it.


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## dollyanna (17 September 2012)

I very rarely participate in these discussions because they just get me riled, but I had to post in support of krlyr. When I watched that video earlier today it took me back to when my dog first arrived - my first dog, a rescue, who also happens to be deaf although that is irrelevant to his behaviour, it is pertinent to how I dealt with it. 

He resource guarded to the same degree if not worse than that lab. He would fly across the room to me if I happened to leave food on a worktop and forgot about it. He was just like that lab, including the ending bite when you think it's all over.

He had opportunities to remove himself from me, but didn't know he could take them, because until I had him if he tried to take himself away he was followed to be punished. That lab tried to tell CM to back off at the very start, which was responded to with a jab in the neck. He then backed off but CM followed him. Repeatedly he tries to back away with CM following, including the last attack - when he relaxed CM should have walked well away to relieve the pressure, not just sit and stare at him more. He certainly should have had the sense not to try and stroke his nose.

My boy has never had direct work on his guarding. I dealt with it by management - he was fed in his crate or left to eat in peace. Gradually he started to growl again, which he had learned not to bother with in the past because no-one listened. These days anyone can walk past him and the most he will do is a grumble to remind you he is there and would appreciate the peace and space to eat in comfort. But any sign of discomfort and I backed off, so he could learn to relax with me (and others) around.

It is my responsibilty to keep him safe and happy. So if I have guests who cannot be trusted to behave within his comfort zone then they either don't come in the house or he is put in another room with a toy. Dogs are dogs, and whilst many of them cope remarkably well with living in a human world, many can't cope with all that is expected of them. They speak their language (body language, growls, snarls and eventually snaps and bites if not heard) but get punished for it. Whilst there will always be some animals that have too many issues and can't survive, I doubt this lab is one of them - somebody made him like that by poor handling and poor understanding, and CM really doesn't help the poor dog's impression of humanity. He asks for space, and expresses his discomfort, and he just gets "shouted" at in return.

I am shocked that on a forum which should be full of animal lovers so many are prepared to PTS and not even begin to understand how a dog get to this point, or how easy it can be to turn it around. How often do we get kicked or nipped or bitten by horses, far more powerful and scary animals, but it is rare for the immediate response to be PTS? People expect horses to be full of themselves for the first few years of their lives, yet puppies have to learn not to mouth at all within months. We all know that ears back means horse isn't happy, but they don't get punished for putting ears back - yet dogs get told off for snarling or growling, a perfectly reasonable way of communicating. I don't get it.


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## Jools1234 (17 September 2012)

dollyanna said:



			I very rarely participate in these discussions because they just get me riled, but I had to post in support of krlyr. When I watched that video earlier today it took me back to when my dog first arrived - my first dog, a rescue, who also happens to be deaf although that is irrelevant to his behaviour, it is pertinent to how I dealt with it. 

He resource guarded to the same degree if not worse than that lab. He would fly across the room to me if I happened to leave food on a worktop and forgot about it. He was just like that lab, including the ending bite when you think it's all over.

He had opportunities to remove himself from me, but didn't know he could take them, because until I had him if he tried to take himself away he was followed to be punished. That lab tried to tell CM to back off at the very start, which was responded to with a jab in the neck. He then backed off but CM followed him. Repeatedly he tries to back away with CM following, including the last attack - when he relaxed CM should have walked well away to relieve the pressure, not just sit and stare at him more. He certainly should have had the sense not to try and stroke his nose.

My boy has never had direct work on his guarding. I dealt with it by management - he was fed in his crate or left to eat in peace. Gradually he started to growl again, which he had learned not to bother with in the past because no-one listened. These days anyone can walk past him and the most he will do is a grumble to remind you he is there and would appreciate the peace and space to eat in comfort. But any sign of discomfort and I backed off, so he could learn to relax with me (and others) around.

It is my responsibilty to keep him safe and happy. So if I have guests who cannot be trusted to behave within his comfort zone then they either don't come in the house or he is put in another room with a toy. Dogs are dogs, and whilst many of them cope remarkably well with living in a human world, many can't cope with all that is expected of them. They speak their language (body language, growls, snarls and eventually snaps and bites if not heard) but get punished for it. Whilst there will always be some animals that have too many issues and can't survive, I doubt this lab is one of them - somebody made him like that by poor handling and poor understanding, and CM really doesn't help the poor dog's impression of humanity. He asks for space, and expresses his discomfort, and he just gets "shouted" at in return.

I am shocked that on a forum which should be full of animal lovers so many are prepared to PTS and not even begin to understand how a dog get to this point, or how easy it can be to turn it around. How often do we get kicked or nipped or bitten by horses, far more powerful and scary animals, but it is rare for the immediate response to be PTS? People expect horses to be full of themselves for the first few years of their lives, yet puppies have to learn not to mouth at all within months. We all know that ears back means horse isn't happy, but they don't get punished for putting ears back - yet dogs get told off for snarling or growling, a perfectly reasonable way of communicating. I don't get it.
		
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dogs and horses are very different animals a horse in that situation would have gone for flight not fight in my opinion


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## Cinnamontoast (17 September 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Its got to be genetic, I wouldnt want a dog like that, she did attack when under no pressure and gave very mixed signals. I dont like his method of dominence though she struck me as a nervy dog.
		
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What she said ^^



CaveCanem said:



			He wasn't up in her face when she bit him, and BIT him and hung on, that was not a warning, she waited until he was no longer threatening, that is what would worry me.
		
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This too ^^

Don't care what someone was doing standing over her, no way should she be biting. Not a dog that should be in a family.

I _love_ Cesar Milan, wish he'd come and sort out Zak.


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## bonny (17 September 2012)

Horses live in a field not in your house ....


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## Always Henesy (17 September 2012)

dollyanna said:



			I very rarely participate in these discussions because they just get me riled, but I had to post in support of krlyr. When I watched that video earlier today it took me back to when my dog first arrived - my first dog, a rescue, who also happens to be deaf although that is irrelevant to his behaviour, it is pertinent to how I dealt with it. 

He resource guarded to the same degree if not worse than that lab. He would fly across the room to me if I happened to leave food on a worktop and forgot about it. He was just like that lab, including the ending bite when you think it's all over.

He had opportunities to remove himself from me, but didn't know he could take them, because until I had him if he tried to take himself away he was followed to be punished. That lab tried to tell CM to back off at the very start, which was responded to with a jab in the neck. He then backed off but CM followed him. Repeatedly he tries to back away with CM following, including the last attack - when he relaxed CM should have walked well away to relieve the pressure, not just sit and stare at him more. He certainly should have had the sense not to try and stroke his nose.

My boy has never had direct work on his guarding. I dealt with it by management - he was fed in his crate or left to eat in peace. Gradually he started to growl again, which he had learned not to bother with in the past because no-one listened. These days anyone can walk past him and the most he will do is a grumble to remind you he is there and would appreciate the peace and space to eat in comfort. But any sign of discomfort and I backed off, so he could learn to relax with me (and others) around.

It is my responsibilty to keep him safe and happy. So if I have guests who cannot be trusted to behave within his comfort zone then they either don't come in the house or he is put in another room with a toy. Dogs are dogs, and whilst many of them cope remarkably well with living in a human world, many can't cope with all that is expected of them. They speak their language (body language, growls, snarls and eventually snaps and bites if not heard) but get punished for it. Whilst there will always be some animals that have too many issues and can't survive, I doubt this lab is one of them - somebody made him like that by poor handling and poor understanding, and CM really doesn't help the poor dog's impression of humanity. He asks for space, and expresses his discomfort, and he just gets "shouted" at in return.

I am shocked that on a forum which should be full of animal lovers so many are prepared to PTS and not even begin to understand how a dog get to this point, or how easy it can be to turn it around. How often do we get kicked or nipped or bitten by horses, far more powerful and scary animals, but it is rare for the immediate response to be PTS? People expect horses to be full of themselves for the first few years of their lives, yet puppies have to learn not to mouth at all within months. We all know that ears back means horse isn't happy, but they don't get punished for putting ears back - yet dogs get told off for snarling or growling, a perfectly reasonable way of communicating. I don't get it.
		
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Snarling or growling is massively different from actually ripping you to shreds.

My dogs fit in with people coming into my house - not the other way round.
I have had my dogs grow up with my small children and they are actually very gentle with them even with food.
However, I have also seen first hand reconstructive surgery following on from a dog attack and there is no place for a dog that is this aggressive. A warning snap is very different from actually continuing to savage a human being regardless of the circumstances.
Many children have died from dog maulings and we have a responsibility to our fellow human beings to not have dogs like this in society.

For the record, my dogs are allowed to eat in peace but there have been many times when the children were crawling when they would get in the dog bowl. I would always be there to scoop them away within seconds, but seconds is all it takes to kill a child. Thankfully on these rare occasions, the dogs would just lick the children and wait for me to remove the minor irritation.


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## noobs31 (17 September 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			I accept that Holly was stressed . . . and I accept that CM's body language and methods were possibly making her more stressed, but at the point when she actually grabbed his hand and held on he had taken the pressure off - that's what I find so troubling.
		
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Agree with this.  That dog ain't right.


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## toffeeyummy (17 September 2012)

I agree with the leaving them to eat in peace. My dogs are fed seperately and left to get on with it. The children know to leave them and once all finished the bowls are scooped up and put away. I know I wouldn't want someone trying to put their fingers in my dinner or bothering me whilst eating. Does that make me a dangerous person? And yes I would bite.....
On a more serious note I think poor dog, she was really telling him to stay the ******* out of my space so why did he push it? I wonder how she was the rest of the time when food wasn't involved? For the record I am a big CM fan but IMO he went wrong here x


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## millitiger (17 September 2012)

Whatever the provocation, a dog that reacts like that is not suitable to live in a home with children.

I don't think many people regularly interrupt their dog's eating dinner on purpose but you must be able to- what if you come across your pet dog eating something they have found which is dangerous or toxic? 
You need to be able to take things out of their mouth/bowl without being growled at, snapped at or bitten.


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## stargirl88 (17 September 2012)

Ive watched the video again, and actually that bite followed on from snap which CM retreated from..... But he was actually leaning towards her again - which caused the bite. She didnt bite AS he was moving backwards - he was coming back towards her and by then she had exhausted all her other options to get him to back off.

ALL family dogs are more than capable of this behaviour - obviously some are more tolerant than others. Only they arent all provoked to such a degree.


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## toffeeyummy (17 September 2012)

I agree. But it comes with other training, I never interrupt my dogs eating but I know for sure, and have done, that I can remove something from them without aggression. (baby hare from patterdales mouth - now that's serious!). They know I'm the boss and what I say goes but they eat in peace. As for the dog, yes very dangerous but what's pushed her to behave in that way? She just looks seriously p****ed off to me.


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## dollyanna (17 September 2012)

Yes there are times when you need to get something off a dog, but that should be done by teaching them that it is ok for you to take stuff, not by just taking it or forcing them to give it up and assuming they will be ok with it. My dog was at least as bad as Holly, but nowadays if I ask him to hand over his bone he will bring it to my hand. I can ask him to leave and come away from any food. He has a horrendous history, has been damaged by people so much in the past, was starved as a pup, has brain damage from drug use as a pup, but he has been taught that being around food is not a source of stress, he does not need to guard, and it is good to bring me things including food. It is not hard, but it takes time. So many people are just not willing to put the time and effort into teaching these things properly, and taking responsibilty for the dog. Dogs are rarely evil, they are usually scared or damaged by previous handling.

Whilst she may not be suitable to live in a family, it is that family that has contributed to her behaviour and PTS is not taking responsibility in my book. But then I also think that children should be taught to respect dogs the same as they are taught to respect horses - don't run up to horses, don't run behind them, don't run up to dogs, don't  put your hand over their head. Leave all animals in peace when eating.

Yes horses are flight and dogs are fight, but they are still a different species to us, and they need to be communicated in ways they understand, or taught ways that we find acceptable. 

I would probably be labelled as fluffy bunny, but I strongly object to that. I got hurt by my dog before I started listening to him, I didn't give him back because I felt the damage was done by other people and no-one else would give him a chance, he is a wonderful dog when he isn't stressed. I have turned him around from wanting to attack everything to being an ambassador for deaf dogs, going in the main ring at shows to demo deaf dogs, there is not a lot he hasn't done, but he is a highly intelligent person who finds the human world confusing at times - I don't find that strange. All my work with him has been done using rewards and completely hands off (because he was handshy from being dragged and hit). It is so unnecessary to use force or aggressive tactics to bully dogs. If mine went for me, I would turn away, give him chance to think, then ask him to do something else (usually sit) and reward him for that. Very quickly he learned that sitting was far more profitable so did that instead, and it didn't take long after that before he didn't bother with the reaction because it took longer to get his reward. I just had to stand still and give him time to think and make his choice. 

http://wildewmn.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/pushed-too-far/


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## blackcob (17 September 2012)

dollyanna said:



			But then I also think that children should be taught to respect dogs the same as they are taught to respect horses - don't run up to horses, don't run behind them, don't run up to dogs, don't  put your hand over their head. Leave all animals in peace when eating.
		
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It's easy to say but how is a toddling baby to know not to approach or grab at the dog? And I know that both dog and child should be supervised at all times but split-second accidents happen. Being more familiar than I used to be with a two year old whirlwind I can see how damn near impossible it would be to police all child/dog interactions. 

I don't think it's too much to expect a certain degree of tolerance in a family dog (and that's tolerance of normal human behaviour, not being allowed to bash the poor sod on the head, steal their food etc.)


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## dollyanna (18 September 2012)

It isn't too much to expect a degree of tolerance, providing the time has been put in to teach the appropriate behaviour. But this film isn't about a reasonable degree of tolerance, it is about exceptional expectations and exceptional responses, and I firmly believe the dog is not to blame in this situation. If you want to be able to take food from a dog safely then you should invest the time training it - as I have said before mine was at least as bad if not worse than Holly but will now bring me anything he has or picks up, including a marrow bone he has only had a few minutes if need be. The difference is I respect that it is his dinner, and I ask him to bring it, I don't expect him to put up with me just taking it from under his nose. It's not hard to understand, and it's not hard to teach, but it would save a lot of bites and potentially dead misunderstood dogs.


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## Moomin1 (18 September 2012)

What an idiot!


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## millitiger (18 September 2012)

So, to the people who have dogs who were much worse than Holly, would you trust your dog around small children/ people who aren't so aware of the intricacies of dog behaviour now they are reformed?

And yes, all dogs are capable of that reaction but it is a bit different when they have gone from capable to actually showing that behaviour.


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## Cedars (18 September 2012)

Surely the point is not about their food bowls at home - you need to be able to remove food from ANY dog - what if they find something out on a walk that's poisonous or dangerous? I'm thinking manky dead animals, but also the more serious tampered with food by nasty people (had a situation round here with razor blades, nice...!), or eg a baked beans can they're trying to lick out despite the sharp edges? What if they're trying to eat a dead rabbit in the middle of a road?

I don't usually interrupt Boo when he's eating, but I bloody well need to know I can. 

I too would be sending this dog on a one way trip.


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## PolarSkye (18 September 2012)

We adopted a dog with food/resource guarding issues.  She was about 9 months old when we got her and in her short life she had probably had to fight for food (she had scars on her face) and had obviously been abused in some way because she was terrified of older men and would growl and raise her hackles when she first saw them.

Tilly also guarded other resources - the sofa, certain people, toys, etc.  I worked hard with her . . . taught her to wait for her food, that the sofa was off limits, to "leave" and/or "bring" toys and relinquish them and to trust people.  She ate in her crate so that she felt safe.  She was a much-loved dog and, when she wasn't being grumbly, was loving and affectionate, especially with my daughters.  She also rubbed along with our other (younger) dog, Fred.  Tills and Fred were part of our family for three years.  One day the girls were walking both dogs and Tilly turned on Fred . . . not just a shouty warning, a full-on attack.  A passing man had to pull her off him.  About two months later, it was bonfire night . . . Tilly got stressed, Fred got in the way and she went for him again.  There was blood everywhere - up the walls, all over the floor, all over both dogs - Fred had to have stitches.  From that night on, Tilly couldn't be in the same room with Freddie without attacking him.  We tried everything.  Behaviourists.  Muzzling.  Separating them.  In the end, my daughters' obvious fear and distress led me to make the sad decision to hand Tilly back to the rescue.  There was a small voice in the back of my head whispering that next time it might not be Fred, but a person.  

The rescue found her a remote, rural home with very secure fencing (she was a real Houdini dog) as an only dog.  She is still there and happy.  

My point is that some dogs can not be rehabilitated to live in a family environment, no matter how hard you try.  Resource guarding is a serious issue and when one of our current dogs potters over the rainbow bridge and we go to adopt another, I will be asking all sorts of questions about food/resource behaviour.

P


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## lexiedhb (18 September 2012)

Why do people still think that dog aggression will always somehow become human aggression? Two totally different issues.


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## touchstone (18 September 2012)

TBB said:



			Does anyone know what happened later in the show with Holly?
		
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Going by his website apparently Holly is at his psychology centre and doing well.


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## Alec Swan (18 September 2012)

lexiedhb said:



			Why do people still think that dog aggression will always somehow become human aggression? Two totally different issues.
		
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An interesting observation.  Many years ago,  when I was involved with attack dogs,  _whilst not always the case_,  almost always,  those dogs which were aggressive towards other dogs,  were all so often useless for man-work,  and vice-versa.  Those dogs which were serious with humans,  often seemed unable to defend themselves with other dogs.  Dogs do fit into stereotypical behaviour patterns,  though no two dogs are the same,  so that wouldn't be able to take into account,  the fruit loops,  obviously.

This thread has been a good read!

Alec.


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## soggy (18 September 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			I'm afraid I'm sticking with my original point which is that Holly's reaction was disproportionate and that she, sadly, isn't terribly suitable as a family pet.
		
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I agree. We have far to many people making excuses for this dogs behaviour. Regardless of the reason, causes, provocations, missed signals, etc etc. You simply can not allow  such aggressive behaviour from any dog that is supposed to be at liberty around family or strangers.

That bitch would be on a one way trip down to the bottom of the field along with a .22 and a spade if it were mine.


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## lexiedhb (18 September 2012)

soggy said:



			I agree. We have far to many people making excuses for this dogs behaviour. Regardless of the reason, causes, provocations, missed signals, etc etc. You simply can not allow  such aggressive behaviour from any dog that is supposed to be at liberty around family or strangers.

That bitch would be on a one way trip down to the bottom of the field along with a .22 and a spade if it were mine.
		
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Is that not like saying any dog should put up with absolutely anything humans do to it and never ever react?

This dog's reaction WAS OTT, but she was pushed.


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## krlyr (18 September 2012)

I don't think many/any people have said a dog bite is a behaviour to allow around family or strangers, but ultimately any dog could be pushed to bite. This dog, perhaps more easily than others because it has a resource guarding issue, but that issue was known and yet the dog was still pushed. 
Yes, I don't think the dog is suitable, in the state shown in the video, to live with children. I don't think that makes it unsuitable to live with adults though, who can use common sense, management and take the time to train the dog using alternative methods to deal with the resource guarding issue, without the unpredictable nature of a child to manage too. 
I could probably push my own dogs to bite if I really applied myself and ignored all their warnings, I think we'd be naive to think our dogs would never bite, no matter what, but Holly doesn't need to ever be pushed as far as she was - there was no need to provoke her like that. CM's behaviour is not something that happens accidentally, he went completely over the top with his actions and ignored multiple warnings from the dog that an owner could take heed of before it ever escalated that far. 

I've said my piece, and given some of the appallingly cruel responses on here in regards to what they would do to a dog with issues, I'm out.


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## MurphysMinder (18 September 2012)

We had a similar situation to Polar Skye.  My (now ex) hubby took on a rescue collie, who at 9 months had been in 3 different homes.  I wasn't happy about it as we had 2 young children and the dog was very food aggressive.  He also would snap if you tried to take him by the collar and remove him from the furniture, or even the room.  We persevered for a long time and he did improve but I was never happy with him around the children, who were used to my GSDs who adored them and were always being cuddled.  It is quite hard to explain to a 1 year old not to touch dog a but dogs b,c,d and e were fine.  When ex left, and didn't take his collie I kept him for a while longer but decided it wasn't fair on either my family or the dog so rehomed him with an older couple , who were aware of all his problems and he lived a long and happy life with them.
ETS.  His was a warning snap, never a full on bite liked the lab showed, if he had done that it would have been a one way trip to the vets.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (18 September 2012)

Personally that would have gotten taken to the vet for the long sleep.

The next door neighbours dog took a chunk out of my hand when i ws house sitting a few years ago and she refused to put it down despite it having bitten me in my sleep. I woke up with it ripping my hand from side to side in bed and my OH ended up having to throw it down the stairs as it kept coming back once I got it off. I had been there nearly 10days beforehand.

So I now have a no tolerance policy with biting dogs. No excuse for the owners unless its a guard dog and there are signs. Pets should be PTS if they bite other people.


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## PolarSkye (18 September 2012)

lexiedhb said:



			Why do people still think that dog aggression will always somehow become human aggression? Two totally different issues.
		
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I'm assuming this is in response to my story about Tilly?  

Tilly's unpredictability and guarding issues were with people and other dogs.  She went to bite my OH when he tried to take an empty Dominos dip carton from her - to be fair to her, she did warn him with a growl and a snarl before she put her teeth on his hand . . . but I never got the feeling that she *wouldn't* bite if provoked . . . and that provocation could be something as simple as physically removing her from the sofa.  I don't believe (nor did I say) that all dog aggressive dogs will become human aggressive . . . but I do believe that some dogs are more predisposed to act first and repent later with much shorter fuses - e.g., Tilly.  

When we were on holiday in Scotland, she nipped a man who was merely walking past . . . just because he was too close to "her" pack for comfort.  I was mortified . . . the man was unhurt but understandably shocked.  Tilly had given no warning.  

I told my story as an illustration of how unsuitable some resource-guarding dogs are for life in a family/with children.  Although she never actually hurt either of them, Tilly's behaviour towards Fred frightened my daughters and, together with everything else we knew about her led us to not entirely trust her.  I didn't *think* she would have bitten either of the girls . . . but I didn't think she'd go for a passing stranger either (and she did just that).  Nor was I convinced that she wouldn't snap at a visitor who didn't know where her boundaries were.

I still stand behind my original point - dogs like Holly with resource guarding issues as marked as hers do not make suitable family pets with small children.

P


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## TrasaM (18 September 2012)

Many years ago my brother and I were messing about and our dog, a rough collie, thought we were fighting and decided to intervene. We were perhaps winding him up..we were teenagers after all. He got between us and nipped my leg..nice pinch with his front teeth. He knew immediately that he'd done wrong before and got the most apologetic look on his face and tail between his legs. that is how family dogs are meant to respond. It was probably the type of nip a good sheep or cattle dog will use but he understood that he shouldn't have done it to his humans. I don't actualLy agree that the answer to hollies problems was PTS. She's a dog and behaved like a dog. She got that way because she knew no better and had not been trained or handled properly. Too many dogs are condemned for the same reason ..spoiled then discarded when their unsociable behaviour becomes a problem. I'm not surprised CM took her in. He seems to have a farm full of ex problem dogs and often swaps them once thry are rehabilitated when he has clients with a dog that is not suitable to their lifestyle.


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## lexiedhb (18 September 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			I'm assuming this is in response to my story about Tilly?  

Tilly's unpredictability and guarding issues were with people and other dogs.  She went to bite my OH when he tried to take an empty Dominos dip carton from her - to be fair to her, she did warn him with a growl and a snarl before she put her teeth on his hand . . . but I never got the feeling that she *wouldn't* bite if provoked . . . and that provocation could be something as simple as physically removing her from the sofa.  I don't believe (nor did I say) that all dog aggressive dogs will become human aggressive . . . but I do believe that some dogs are more predisposed to act first and repent later with much shorter fuses - e.g., Tilly.  

When we were on holiday in Scotland, she nipped a man who was merely walking past . . . just because he was too close to "her" pack for comfort.  I was mortified . . . the man was unhurt but understandably shocked.  Tilly had given no warning.  

I told my story as an illustration of how unsuitable some resource-guarding dogs are for life in a family/with children.  Although she never actually hurt either of them, Tilly's behaviour towards Fred frightened my daughters and, together with everything else we knew about her led us to not entirely trust her.  I didn't *think* she would have bitten either of the girls . . . but I didn't think she'd go for a passing stranger either (and she did just that).  Nor was I convinced that she wouldn't snap at a visitor who didn't know where her boundaries were.

I still stand behind my original point - dogs like Holly with resource guarding issues as marked as hers do not make suitable family pets with small children.

P
		
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but in your story above (previous post not this one) all you mention is dog dog aggression- hence my comment


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## CorvusCorax (18 September 2012)

I agree with the posters who would not persevere with this dog, if it were my dog it would be PTS and we have put to sleep dogs who have never bitten, but have been very much on the runway and it was only a matter of time. Snaps, cornering, growling and pinning a grown man to the floor.

Both clearly unhappy dogs in the head...expecting a dog to live in a constant state of fear or confusion and unhappiness to make oneself feel better that you are 'helping' or 'rehabbing' (not in every case, but some), I think is more cruel. 
And I am sorry, but people and particularly children, are more important than dogs. End of.

There are a million stable dogs out there looking for homes who would fit in well to any family environment, I don't see the point in spending time, money and risking potential heartache and physical damage trying to fix a dangerous one. JMO, I can take being called cruel as well as being called clueless.

I sent the video to the trainer I mentioned and as predicted, he said 'always watch the dog' - he said that CM had sat back and was enjoying a bit of self-admiration when the dog, in it's own head, was still feeling challenged.
I've been particularly interested in this debate as we have been applying a bit of pressure to my young dog (ironically, to fix issues created by positive-only training, where he has been allowed to make all the choices and not for the positive) and he has never once reacted in the way that dog did. Not Ninja stylee posing though 

*One thing I will say and I really think it is worth noting....on a food aggression/resource guarding post a few weeks ago, someone popped up and recommended the CM methods - can you see now why blindly offering this kind of advice over the interwebs without seeing or knowing the dog involved and the potential triggers, could be a very dangerous thing?*


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## EAST KENT (18 September 2012)

soggy said:



			I agree. We have far to many people making excuses for this dogs behaviour. Regardless of the reason, causes, provocations, missed signals, etc etc. You simply can not allow  such aggressive behaviour from any dog that is supposed to be at liberty around family or strangers.

That bitch would be on a one way trip down to the bottom of the field along with a .22 and a spade if it were mine.
		
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I sincerely hope you are jesting about the .22. Dogs that attack other dogs are so often actually cowards,they get the first punch in. In my breed it is what happens if some numpty allows their mutt to attack mine ..about five weeks later (bull terriers are "slow" !)the dog becomes a fighter..out of fear.The best just turn away from confrontation unless pushed.Attack dogs I have found excellent because they seem to adopt an almost paternal attitude to my bull terriers,which they are here to protect.None of them have ever been dog aggressive.The best guard dogs are bold and quiet,only doing their job if needed,the worst are windy creatures always patrolling and barking to the moon as they go,frightened in fact.A robber in the know can face down that sort.Years ago I boarded a so called guard bitch  GSD..that the owner had paid dear for,it barked away in it`s kennel,in the corner,and when I went in it stood emptying it`s bladder.Bloody pathetic.That one would be no where  if the chips were down.The owners of that Lab were useless and I am glad she is in Cesers care now,treat dogs like dogs and the world would be a better place.


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## CorvusCorax (18 September 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			The best guard dogs are bold and quiet,only doing their job if needed,the worst are windy creatures always patrolling and barking to the moon as they go,frightened in fact.A robber in the know can face down that sort.
		
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Persactly EK. (Don't faint )


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## Fellewell (18 September 2012)

I think he got exactly what he asked for. I'm surprised she didn't bite him sooner.

If his intention was to stop food aggression why did he use her bowl? He should have started with a new bowl which was covered in his scent IMO

This sort of thing is tragic. There's a world of difference between an aggressive dog and one who has clearly NEVER received proper training.


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## Teaselmeg (18 September 2012)

The man is a very rich TV entertainer. This just proves his lack of knowledge at a very basic level. Everyone can see the dog is stressed and being pushed into a reaction except him. But then no reaction doesnt make exciting TV programmes does it ?  

 I feel incredibly sad for the dog, who had a problem that was fixable and is now labelled a biter.  She has been failed by her owners and then by CM.

This is a further video he has posted, featuring Holly.  First of all check out his dog's ( Junior) incredibly sad reaction to CM at 2.30m, I have no doubt he has done a lot more than shout at him in the past.  Also the inconsistent signals he gives Holly, as well as training her around other loose dogs, he plays one minute and yanks her on a slip lead the next. This is after telling off his own dog for playing at feeding time !!! And as for saying that a dog standing with its paws either side of its food bowl is being dominant - good grief !!!

This man should have no place near any animals, 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXE-fwI0SWU&feature=youtu.be


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## NeverSayNever (18 September 2012)

Teaselmeg said:



			The man is a very rich TV entertainer. This just proves his lack of knowledge at a very basic level. Everyone can see the dog is stressed and being pushed into a reaction except him. But then no reaction doesnt make exciting TV programmes does it ?  

 I feel incredibly sad for the dog, who had a problem that was fixable and is now labelled a biter.  She has been failed by her owners and then by CM.

This is a further video he has posted, featuring Holly.  First of all check out his dog's ( Junior) incredibly sad reaction to CM at 2.30m, I have no doubt he has done a lot more than shout at him in the past.  Also the inconsistent signals he gives Holly, as well as training her around other loose dogs, he plays one minute and yanks her on a slip lead the next. This is after telling off his own dog for playing at feeding time !!! And as for saying that a dog standing with its paws either side of its food bowl is being dominant - good grief !!!

This man should have no place near any animals, 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXE-fwI0SWU&feature=youtu.be

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have to say i agree with you, i just cant stand him. The continual shhh noise too, grr - do we think there has been a spray collar used to get them to react to that noise?

i think these kind of programmes are really dangerous, all you need is someone trying to copy what they have seen on a 5 minute clip and the result could be disasterous.


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## FestiveBoomBoom (18 September 2012)

This thread has made me realise how lucky I am that I've never had to deal with aggression from any of my dogs, food related or otherwise. Fair play to those that have, its clearly a very difficult thing to deal with and overcome


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## Miss L Toe (18 September 2012)

FestiveBoomBoom said:



			This thread has made me realise how lucky I am that I've never had to deal with aggression from any of my dogs, food related or otherwise. Fair play to those that have, its clearly a very difficult thing to deal with and overcome
		
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I once put my hand down to move a raw knuckle bone my pup was eating, she snarled and tried to bite, it was a natural reaction , not premeditated, all over in a few seconds, I slapped her immediately,  she learned not to do it again, but she was not an adult, and was trainable, later on I could take anything away from her by placing my hand on her muzzle and on her head.

This dog had a learned reaction and is now probably too old to train out of it and be certain it would never happen,  not a family pet. 

The trainer was an idiot, and I thought he was going to lose his goolies, he deserved to!


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## FestiveBoomBoom (18 September 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			The trainer was an idiot, and I thought he was going to lose his goolies, he deserved to!
		
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I know, she could easily have gone for his face too. Can you imagine?!


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## vieshot (18 September 2012)

I would put this animal to sleep before it does someone serious damage. Dogs aren't meant to be like that. This dog is a freak. Freaky diggy.


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## Burmilla (18 September 2012)

You are right: dogs aren't meant to be like this. But the dog is not the 'freak' in this situaton. The freak (jmho) is the so-called 'expert trainer' who seems oblivious to what the dog is telling him, looks at her with a hard unblinking stare which equals - dominance, challenge, in dog language. Then does  not communicate in an a clear way and does not seem interested in what the dog is telling him.


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## Jools1234 (18 September 2012)

Burmilla said:



			You are right: dogs aren't meant to be like this. But the dog is not the 'freak' in this situaton. The freak (jmho) is the so-called 'expert trainer' who seems oblivious to what the dog is telling him, looks at her with a hard unblinking stare which equals - dominance, challenge, in dog language. Then does  not communicate in an a clear way and does not seem interested in what the dog is telling him.
		
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my understanding of CM's methods is that he intentionally wants to dominate the dog as his belief is that humans should always be the pack leader then the dog leaves the decision to the human thereby creating a dog that is a relaxed and calm follower


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## TrasaM (18 September 2012)

Let's hope all the MC critics will acknowledge his achievement if the dog is successfully rehabilitated. It might take some time so that'll provide an opportunity to criticise him for something else.


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## Fellewell (19 September 2012)

FWIW I don't know this man or his methods but he really should know when to ease up on the pressure.

The food had been removed and he reached out to scratch her nose. No big deal you might think, but the atmosphere was still charged and Holly saw a hand coming down across her face

I hope she is rehomed. I think he knew she wasn't dangerous, her reaction after the bite was quite pitiful.


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## Jools1234 (19 September 2012)

Fellewell said:



			I think he knew she wasn't dangerous, her reaction after the bite was quite pitiful.
		
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think you must have watched a different clip to me


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## Sandstone1 (19 September 2012)

Teaselmeg said:



			The man is a very rich TV entertainer. This just proves his lack of knowledge at a very basic level. Everyone can see the dog is stressed and being pushed into a reaction except him. But then no reaction doesnt make exciting TV programmes does it ?  

 I feel incredibly sad for the dog, who had a problem that was fixable and is now labelled a biter.  She has been failed by her owners and then by CM.

This is a further video he has posted, featuring Holly.  First of all check out his dog's ( Junior) incredibly sad reaction to CM at 2.30m, I have no doubt he has done a lot more than shout at him in the past.  Also the inconsistent signals he gives Holly, as well as training her around other loose dogs, he plays one minute and yanks her on a slip lead the next. This is after telling off his own dog for playing at feeding time !!! And as for saying that a dog standing with its paws either side of its food bowl is being dominant - good grief !!!


This man should have no place near any animals, 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXE-fwI0SWU&feature=youtu.be

Click to expand...


I agree. To those who say that the dog gave no signs she was going to bite, Watch the clip again! I find it very worrying that people cant see the signs of fear and stress in this dog.


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## Teaselmeg (19 September 2012)

Another very good analysis of the video;

http://canineaggression.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/food-aggression-and-famous-trainer.html


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## lexiedhb (19 September 2012)

TrasaM said:



			Let's hope all the MC critics will acknowledge his achievement if the dog is successfully rehabilitated. It might take some time so that'll provide an opportunity to criticise him for something else.
		
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Who's MC?????


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## Fellewell (19 September 2012)

Teaselmeg said:



			Another very good analysis of the video;

http://canineaggression.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/food-aggression-and-famous-trainer.html

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Thank you for posting this, it is an excellent analysis. 

I do believe with animals that there are times when behaviour cannot be seen/taken in isolation.


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## KatandBasher (26 September 2012)

He bloody well deserved it the stupid, ignorant fool! Holly is not an aggressive dog. She was giving off a whole host of calming signals to try and diffuse the situation and avoid any conflict but CM hasn't a clue what he's doing so her attempts at keeping the peace went straight over his head. He pushed and pushed her till she had no choice but to bite him (notice she bit the hand he jabbed her in the neck with). He took her back to his 'rehab' centre where he will have bullied and intimidated her until she could cope no longer, went into complete shutdown and became a terrified robot like the rest of his poor dogs.
The man is nothing more than a dog abuser!


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## piebaldsparkle (26 September 2012)

TBB said:



			Does anyone know what happened later in the show with Holly?
		
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She went to CM's for rehab - she can be seen in this clip (from 2min onwards).  Think this was 2 weeks after she bit him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXE-fwI0SWU&feature=youtu.be


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## meandmyself (26 September 2012)

blackcob said:



			It's easy to say but how is a toddling baby to know not to approach or grab at the dog? And I know that both dog and child should be supervised at all times but split-second accidents happen. Being more familiar than I used to be with a two year old whirlwind I can see how damn near impossible it would be to police all child/dog interactions. 

I don't think it's too much to expect a certain degree of tolerance in a family dog (and that's tolerance of normal human behaviour, not being allowed to bash the poor sod on the head, steal their food etc.)
		
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I got my first dog at a year old. I have pics of me laying on him, dressing him up, sharing food... Family dogs need to put up with a lot. He never once snapped at me, though he did once pinch a kit kat from me.


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## CAYLA (27 September 2012)

piebaldsparkle said:



			She went to CM's for rehab - she can be seen in this clip (from 2min onwards).  Think this was 2 weeks after she bit him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXE-fwI0SWU&feature=youtu.be

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I cant hear, its bloody buffering to much find another PBS I demand!


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## moosea (27 September 2012)

My last dog, Rocky, was so food aggressive with me in the first two days we had him I actually thought that I would end up taking him back to the Dogs Trust.

Within 12 months of owning him he was turning his nose up at food if it wasn't 'good' enough for him!!

I do not have children - if I had, I would never have taken him on with his issues. He was also the only dog in the house.

He was 'cured' by ALWAYS having biscuits down for him. 
He ate the first bowl in record time... so I refilled it. Second bowl he was slower and had to stop half way through - I refilled the bowl. He bowl was never empty again at our house.
The other thing was keeping a strict routine for feeding times - wet food was served by the time he came in from the garden in the morning and at 6pm in the evening.

His history had been one where he had at some time been very hungry and uncertain when his next meal would arrive. I never wanted him to feel insecure about that in his home again.

And, yes, he did put on weight initially - however we increased his exercise to take this into account, and although in his older days he was in ' show condition' he was never actually overweight for his size or build. 

Worked well for Rocky, and a few other rescue dogs I fostered too.

EDT. If you had seen Rocky guarding entire rooms because there was a biscuit on the floor I have no doubt that some of you would have been saying he should be PTS - however he lived a long and happy 6 years with me and never bit anyone.


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## piebaldsparkle (27 September 2012)

CAYLA said:



			I cant hear, its bloody buffering to much find another PBS I demand!
		
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Sheeeeeeeeeeeesh

Try this - Middle Vid  - Ignore the crap at the start, Holly from about 2mins in.

http://www.cesarsway.com/training/dogtraining/Cesars-Dog-Training-Video-Aggression-During-Feeding


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## mystiandsunny (27 September 2012)

It's so sad to see a Labrador bred badly enough that it is aggressive in any way.  Proper labs are such tolerant, gentle family dogs.  Regardless of CM or anything else, that's what stands out to me watching that video.  I had a labx as a child - I lay all over her, shared my food with her, stroked her as she slept, added bits to her food bowl or quickly took it to pop gravy or something nice on top, we played dress-up and 'sniffer dog' games and she took everything I asked her to do with a waggy tail and a happiness at being included.  The x part of her gave her an edge that was a bit more of a guard dog when needed, and she protected the house and her people - it was all bark though, nothing more.


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## Jools1234 (27 September 2012)

mystiandsunny said:



			It's so sad to see a Labrador bred badly enough that it is aggressive in any way.  Proper labs are such tolerant, gentle family dogs.  Regardless of CM or anything else, that's what stands out to me watching that video.
		
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i am not saying breeding has nothing to do with it but what a sweeping statement


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## CorvusCorax (27 September 2012)

For such a numerically large breed, of course there are going to be wrong 'uns, through breeding or rearing.
There is a horribly dog-aggressive female lab in our village.


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## Alec Swan (27 September 2012)

mystiandsunny said:



			It's so sad to see a Labrador bred badly enough that it is aggressive in any way.  Proper labs are such tolerant, gentle family dogs.  

.......
		
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Whilst I would agree that genetics can,  and so often do,  influence a dog's make up,  it's also the case that many dogs such as the one under discussion,  can through either the ignorance of,  or the failure to correct at the appropriate time,  of those who had her as a puppy,  can encourage any dog which is already on the cusp of aggression,  to decide that it will please itself.

Alec.


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