# New Shoes- Natural Balance -Pics  Your opinions please!



## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

Hi,
After my post last week about the state of my lads shoes, I go a new farrier.
He did them yesterday and used natural balance shoes on him.
His feet I think look great compared to what they were like.
The only thing is he is moving differently. I expected a bit of change as the farrier said it will change his movement slightly.
He has gone from lovely long paces to short choppy paces, he doesn't look sure of them when hes walking, I only hacked him today to get used to them but he took a bit off kicking on. He did improve ever so slightly in them but not to his usual lovely big strides.
Is this normal for NB shoes? is it something he will get used to and get back his stride? If not I might have to move him back to normal shoes
Theres no heat in his feet and he looks funny on both the front two.


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## neighnay (5 August 2010)

Are these the Cytek shoes?? in which case, i have used these for years!
Many people are sceptical and not willing to give new things a try but my god i love mine! have three horses on them, one horse that couldnt keep normal shoes on for more then a few days, tried 5 differnt farriers all had trouble so ended up having these! the farrier is brilliant and the shoes stay on so well!
All of mine took a good couple of weeks to get used to them, its a whole differnt way of moving, so i would give your horse time to see if he comes right!


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

I don't think they are, but I think their similar from what I've just read quickly on google!
Hope he improves, they do look alot thicker than normal shoes so he's probably finding them a bit heavy too.


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## thatsmygirl (5 August 2010)

I'm not a fan off natural balancing shoes. The break over point is different and I found none off mine would except it butis good for some horses who has problems. There's a lot off over hanging shoe which yes you sometimes get some but seems to be a lot, hope it's not the off fore or your gona lose shoes for a last time. On the pic off his heels I wonder if the foot is balanced???? Did he put the t bar on him? Just seems to be a lot more heel on the left than the right as you look at thec pic. And shoe don't seem to match both sides!!! Close to frog on right but quite a bit off on left. Sorry not being nasty just what it looks like to me.


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## gekko (5 August 2010)

Ok, opinion as a Master Farrier...NB shoes have their place, but are not a "general use" shoe...not beneficial to most horses in most cases...but can be great for those that NEED them.

The specific shoeing job pictured...@#$%^ horrible!


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## Ranyhyn (5 August 2010)

My horse came in natural balance shoes and I certainly liked the way he moves, however now when shod the farrier rolls the toe which improves breakover anyway which I think is the main aim of the natural balance shoe anyway isnt it?  Nothing overly good or awfully bad to say here.


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## china (5 August 2010)

he may well be abit sore as it would have changed the way hes walked so untill he settles he will prob be abit short, my boy has just had straight bars on and now has a walk of a 17hh shire, its huge but it took him a while to adjust. its hard to see the first two pics because of the straw, the last pic looks like he has lateral extensions but that might just be the angle of the pic.


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## peanut (5 August 2010)

My flatfooted horse has been in NB shoes since having corns/laminitis and although I don't like the look of the shape of her feet now, they've sorted her problems.


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## 4faults (5 August 2010)

My mare has Navic and has been in NB for awhile, she had lovely long paces before and is now quite stilted and choppy but they have improved the lameness Im assuming its because the shorten the breaking point? Either way she is staying in them as she is no longer in ridden work


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

Monsters said:



			I'm not a fan off natural balancing shoes. The break over point is different and I found none off mine would except it butis good for some horses who has problems. There's a lot off over hanging shoe which yes you sometimes get some but seems to be a lot, hope it's not the off fore or your gona lose shoes for a last time. On the pic off his heels I wonder if the foot is balanced???? Did he put the t bar on him? Just seems to be a lot more heel on the left than the right as you look at thec pic. And shoe don't seem to match both sides!!! Close to frog on right but quite a bit off on left. Sorry not being nasty just what it looks like to me.
		
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It was suggested he have these as he has low heel and long toe. Not sure if you saw my last post?
the farrier said he has put alot of overhang on that one side as his hoof has started to curl in on that side from too small of a shoe being used by the last farrier, and this would encourage it to grow in the right direction.
He said he purposly did the outside of his hinds longer to help with the conformation of his hinds. He told me he'd do this once he had his old shoes off. 
Thanks for you advice, I am going to give him a couple of weeks, if hes not improved might get them taken off. He has lovely dressage moves, which is what I want to concentrate on with him, but he isnt moving well on them at all. But it is a big change for him as his toes have been long and heels low all his life so a big change for him


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## neighnay (5 August 2010)

i believe it may well be NB that my farrier uses....i think he reverted to them from cytek, well whatever he did worked, and the horses feet are all in better shape. Ive just had a flat footed 17 hand horse shoed by him for the first time and the feet already look a lot better, and his general movement is so much better, he struggled down hill witht he old shoes now he happily trots down the hill in the field no problem! i say try it and see what happens. you never please everyone!
Any chance you can get a photo of the underneath of your horses foot?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (5 August 2010)

hate NB shoes, never seem to make things better long term and totally disort the feet.

cant comment on shoes in those pics as all i can see is that the heels are awfully long and underrun and the toe has been dumped, not a NB issue but a &***& farrier issue!


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

Looks like from the comments so far I'm going to be looking for a third farrier, he is a remidial farrier and has been recomended by vets.
When he was vetted the vet said he should be shod so his heels are long, as hes flat footed, with long toes, low heels. And if they weren't his heels would start to split. 
He didn't put them on him as a normal way of shoeing. We discussed it and he thought it would be a good idea as his heels are so bad, and he has been tripping over, Which he didnt on out hack today (this is a first, he we normally have at least 3 or 4 trips in a hack.


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

Heres my post from last week, showing what his feet looked like before they were done with NB's
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=387064


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## sally2008 (5 August 2010)

I am a NB fan and having seen the benefits of them when properly applied for the last seven years would never have my horses in anything else now, but I do have the benefit of a farrier who holds the highest qualifications in NB shoeing.

The trouble is that any one can buy the shoes but they often don't understand the principles behind the shoeing system, consequently they are not successful in sorting the issues and it's the shoes that get blamed.  As a previous poster said, this is not an NB problem, it's a farrier problem.  I would like to see the underside of the foot to be sure but looking at the photographs you have posted I would say they haven't been applied using the guidelines my farrier has outlined.  

Whereabouts in the country are you?


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## galaxy (5 August 2010)

My old boy was shod natural balance and my farrier shoes horses that way that have bad foot conformation for HPA.

It can take a few shoeings for a farrier to get the foot just right for NB shoeing.  It's a different way of trimming to prepare for the shoe than the conventional.  Bare with it.

In terms of movement.  He was only done yesterday, I give it at least this cycle of shoes and then speak to farrier and get him to see the horse move.  It really is a totally different way of shoeing and I imagine your horse is feeling it and adjusting.


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## galaxy (5 August 2010)

skewbald86 said:



			Heres my post from last week, showing what his feet looked like before they were done with NB's
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=387064

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That's quite a difference.  Give it some time.  You horse had no heel support before, it's going to be feeling strange.


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

I'm in warwickshire. Yay some positive posts, don't feel as bad anymore!

the farrier is suposse to be really good, and he has had a tought job as he has been shod with no heel support for at least the last 5 years (I have spoke to his old owner and she (like I was about foot conformation!) totally clueless about his low heels.


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## oliversmummy (5 August 2010)

Hi there - I had exactly the same problem with our 17hh mare although she had great shaped feet, my old farrier insisted that nb shoes where the way to go with her for some reason!, she lost her stunning movement and confidence levels dropped. i gave them about 6 shoeings before changing my farrier to another guy who now is great he shoes her in the normal shoes with a toe clip and her movement has returned, he explained that there are alot of horses with not great feet that don't need nb shoes just a better farrier!!!
 Good luck and hope that his movement comes back


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

oliversmummy said:



			Hi there - I had exactly the same problem with our 17hh mare although she had great shaped feet, my old farrier insisted that nb shoes where the way to go with her for some reason!, she lost her stunning movement and confidence levels dropped. i gave them about 6 shoeings before changing my farrier to another guy who now is great he shoes her in the normal shoes with a toe clip and her movement has returned, he explained that there are alot of horses with not great feet that don't need nb shoes just a better farrier!!!
 Good luck and hope that his movement comes back

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How long did it take to get her movement back after? was it instant?
I think I'll ask him to shoe normal shoes next time. He has been going so well on the flat so don't want to put his progress back. 
All I want is for him to be comfortable and go well.


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## china (5 August 2010)

if he is recomended by your vet then give him a chance, but dont be afraid to ask him some questions though if you are worried! i am always asking my farriers questions, puts my mind at rest!


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

will ring him later to ask about his movement.
i'm not to worried about the overhang shoe, and feet left long at the heels and outside as he went around every foot and told me what was good and bad about each one individually and how he was going to shoe each one to improve it over time. He did say they will look better over time and it will take his feet a while to adjust. I just don't want him to lose his lovely movement.


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## Jennyharvey (5 August 2010)

I think that what it looks like is his heels are underrun, instead of being short.  
Short heels are not a bd thing, but what looks to be happening is his heels are growing forward, instead of downward toward the ground.  http://www.barefootworks.co.uk/images/Annie Jul 078.jpg
I tried to find a well shod hoof, but could find one on goodle.  Only reason i chose a barehoof.  
If you look at the angle of the heels.  Its much more upright, and looks like a very healthy hoof.  

With your horse, his heels have much more of an angle, sloping under his feet a bit.  
Dunno if that makes sense lol. Just compare the anlge of the heels, and the slope of them.  I truly believe your horses feet are underrun, and need to be treated as such.  

Ask your farrier if he thinks he just has low heels, or whether he thinks they are underrun.


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## Jennyharvey (5 August 2010)

just found a diagram of a hoof.  They are actually showing a under run heel as normal.  
http://chestofbooks.com/animals/hor...For-The-Model-The-Hoof-Of-The-Horse-60078.jpg


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

Jennyharvey said:



			I think that what it looks like is his heels are underrun, instead of being short.  
Short heels are not a bd thing, but what looks to be happening is his heels are growing forward, instead of downward toward the ground.  http://www.barefootworks.co.uk/images/Annie Jul 078.jpg
I tried to find a well shod hoof, but could find one on goodle.  Only reason i chose a barehoof.  
If you look at the angle of the heels.  Its much more upright, and looks like a very healthy hoof.  

With your horse, his heels have much more of an angle, sloping under his feet a bit.  
Dunno if that makes sense lol. Just compare the anlge of the heels, and the slope of them.  I truly believe your horses feet are underrun, and need to be treated as such.  

Ask your farrier if he thinks he just has low heels, or whether he thinks they are underrun.
		
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Yes it makes perfect sense, most of the horses on the yard are like this- the longer theyve been there to worse they are.
How is this corrected, I will ask him when he comes out next. he has alot of heel support now the shoe extends further back than the old shoes- will this help to correct?


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## Jennyharvey (5 August 2010)

Just found a shod hoof for comparison.  Its the best shod foot i can find.  
http://www.lifelearn-cliented.com/cms/resources/body/1116/farriery-1.jpg

To be honest, the best way to correct this is to remove the cause, ie the shoe.  Its actually very hard to find a shod hoof who isnt slightly underrun.  

To correct this, you have to return the foot to its natural function.  
Below is a case study i found.  Hope its helpfull.  
http://holistic-hooves.co.uk/CaseStudy2.aspx
Because the shoe prevents the normal expansion of the hoof, the heels just grow forward instead of staying short, as with a barehoof.  
 Your farrier may not be happy to take the shoes off, so i would recommend you to do a bit of research to decide if its the best course of action for your horse.  If it is, there are many organisations that can help.  
http://www.epauk.org/  You should be able to find an EP in your area.

Some before and after pics on his results page if your interested.  
http://www.unshod.co.uk/


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

Jennyharvey said:



			Just found a shod hoof for comparison.  Its the best shod foot i can find.  
http://www.lifelearn-cliented.com/cms/resources/body/1116/farriery-1.jpg

To be honest, the best way to correct this is to remove the cause, ie the shoe.  Its actually very hard to find a shod hoof who isnt slightly underrun.  

To correct this, you have to return the foot to its natural function.  
Below is a case study i found.  Hope its helpfull.  
http://holistic-hooves.co.uk/CaseStudy2.aspx
Because the shoe prevents the normal expansion of the hoof, the heels just grow forward instead of staying short, as with a barehoof.  
 Your farrier may not be happy to take the shoes off, so i would recommend you to do a bit of research to decide if its the best course of action for your horse.  If it is, there are many organisations that can help.  
http://www.epauk.org/  You should be able to find an EP in your area.

Some before and after pics on his results page if your interested.  
http://www.unshod.co.uk/

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Thanks for all that, very interesting, not sure my lad would go well barefoot, his feet have alot of white in them and are quite soft, and hes very sore footed, just looking at a stone makes him hobble!
will give him a call tonight and see what he says, I've been doing lots of googleing and it looks like the shortening might just be a temperary side effect. so fingers crossed


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## Jennyharvey (5 August 2010)

A lot of people still think that white feet are weaker than black ones.  Its a complete myth.  Lots of horses, especially creams, have 4 white hooves, and have no problem with them being weak or soft.  MYTH 

What age is your horse?  Horses are not born with bad or weak feet.  They get that way through a lifetime of shoeing.  

The longer the horse wears shoes, the more the horse needs them, if you know what i mean.  

The only way to get a good foot is allow it to function naturally.  

There are so many hoof boots on the market so i dont believe any horse NEEDS shoes.  From remedial to competition boots, all types for all horses.

I took the shoes of a 10 yr old tb gelding a few months ago.  He didnt really have much wrong with his feet, but he was very over at the knee which would suggest heel pain.  

The first time i walked him after taking off the shoes, in had to ask myself if i had done the right thing.  BHe was soo sore. But now, to see him trot and canter around the arena sound, happy and all within about 3 months.  Its such a nice feeling, to see him so comfortable and with 4 healthy feet.  

He had to wear hoof boots for the first month just to be turned out.  He wore thick pads to help stimulate hoof growth, but now he is fine without them.  

Any horse can go without shoes if the owner and farrier are prepared to give it a go, and the owner is prepared to put in the time, effort and patiance to allow the horse to get his healthy feet back again.


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

hes 8 years old.
what kind of maintenance does it take at the begining for barefoot?
He is on lvery and only get to see him 4 days in a week, so if it needed daily maintenance I couldnt do it with him. my livery yard is really old school so i couldnt ask them to change boots or anything.
I spoke to the farrier who said rather than the NB shoes causing his shorter stride its just the fact hes taken so much off his toes and left his heel long.
He said he should be ok in a few days- which i thought was quite soon, so if hes still not right by monday i'll call him again for his advice


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## Munchkin (5 August 2010)

I had a horse that benefited immensely from NB shoeing. That is not good NB shoeing in my opinion - sorry.


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## Jennyharvey (5 August 2010)

He may be fine coming out of shoes.  If its stoney, he may need boots.  But if the ground isnt too stoney between his field and stable, he shouldnt needs boots to get there.  Whats the ground like?  
He may only need boots to be ridden, but i think that if you are paying for livery, then its not much to ask for them to do boots for him.  Im sure they put his rug on and off?

If you are interested, contact an equine podiatrist in your area and im sure they could come out to you for a consultation.  Explain that your not sure if barefoot will work but would just like a chance to get someones opinion.  

Some horses need more conditioning than others, but some horses, once they get going, are fine.  Only need boots for stoney tracks usually.  

Where about are you?  

I could maybe recommend an ep in your area if you like?  Im not in the uk mainland, or else i would be happy to come and see your horse if u wanted.  
But i think it may be worth your while talking to an ep.  Even if you decide not to remove the shoes, you will be more enlightened.


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

How much does a consultation cost- i'm on a bit of a budget, if it exceeds shoeing costs I wouldnt be interested.
I'm based in warwks


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

Munchkin said:



			I had a horse that benefited immensely from NB shoeing. That is not good NB shoeing in my opinion - sorry.
		
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Hi Munchkin,
What is wrong with the shoeing? just so I can ask the farrier when he comes out?
Thanks


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## LucyPriory (5 August 2010)

gekko said:



			The specific shoeing job pictured...@#$%^ horrible!
		
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I second that, b. awful trim job, the heels aren't even balanced and the toe has been very heavily rasped.


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## Shysmum (5 August 2010)

oooo barefoot,barefoot !!! 

 That shoeing just doesn't look right, sorry. I imagine he will be sore, hence the shortened strides.  sm x


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## cptrayes (5 August 2010)

You don't show pictures of the underside of your horse's feet, but if by "natural balance" he means that he has set the breakover well back from the front of the toe, and your horse has flat feet and thin soles, then the point of his/her pedal bone is probably going to be pressing directly onto a metal shoe through his/her sole and if so, s/he would definitely change her gait.


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## LucyPriory (5 August 2010)

skewbald86 said:



			Looks like from the comments so far I'm going to be looking for a third farrier, he is a remidial farrier and has been recomended by vets.
When he was vetted the vet said he should be shod so his heels are long, as hes flat footed, with long toes, low heels. And if they weren't his heels would start to split. 
He didn't put them on him as a normal way of shoeing. We discussed it and he thought it would be a good idea as his heels are so bad, and he has been tripping over, Which he didnt on out hack today (this is a first, he we normally have at least 3 or 4 trips in a hack.
		
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Maybe you should consider changing your vet too?  That is terrible advice. A flat footed long toed horse with underrun heels needs a decent trim and probably a dietary overhaul.  Horses are not born with flat feet etc.  We make them through inappropriate management.

Sort the cause and find yourself a decent trimmer - and a vet that understands something about feet.


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

I'm totally confused at what to do now, I've had 3 farriers see him now. all been told not good.
with ref to the unlevel heel hights, he told me before he put the on he would shoe the backs like this to correct his conformation, so I went along with what he said.
There is litterally only one other farrier in the area that has a good rep that i havent tried.
If hes till not striding right by next week, do i get another farrier out? or the one who has done the current job?


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## LucyPriory (5 August 2010)

Did either the vet or the farrier discuss the hefty event lines with you?  They should have.  Until you can grow a hoof without such extreme event lines you will always be fighting symptoms.

I know lots of horses have them, peeps just don't notice.  Which is why the transition from shod to bare can sometimes mean a dietary change.  The dietary issue was always there, but the symptoms were masked by the effects of the shoes.


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

LucyPriory said:



			Maybe you should consider changing your vet too?  That is terrible advice. A flat footed long toed horse with underrun heels needs a decent trim and probably a dietary overhaul.  Horses are not born with flat feet etc.  We make them through inappropriate management.

Sort the cause and find yourself a decent trimmer - and a vet that understands something about feet.
		
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if you see my previous post, it has a video of him of when i collected him about 3 months ago. He was soo skinny and hadnt been re shod for months. Just left in a field to starve really, when I tried him he had just been fully clipped (in april!) and in a no fill rug and it was freezing, so he does come to me with nutritinal issues and feet issues.
Vets wise, they are probably the most popular vets in the west mids, so I trusted their advice


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

LucyPriory said:



			Did either the vet or the farrier discuss the hefty event lines with you?  They should have.  Until you can grow a hoof without such extreme event lines you will always be fighting symptoms.

I know lots of horses have them, peeps just don't notice.  Which is why the transition from shod to bare can sometimes mean a dietary change.  The dietary issue was always there, but the symptoms were masked by the effects of the shoes.
		
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by event lines do you mean the ring around his feet? the vet said these are from the fact he had been starved for the last 6 months and not getting the nutrients he needs. 
Just so you know I have only had him for about 3months, these are not my doing, I'm trying to get the best for my boy and correct what state hes been left in.


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## Munchkin (5 August 2010)

The whole idea of "natural balance" is that the breakover point allows foot growth without altering the heel/pastern axis.  You can see by looking at the angle of your horse's foot that that wouldn't happen.

Also, the shoe is generally further back on the foot, balancing the heel and with more toe over the front of the shoe. 

It's good for horses who drop dramatically onto their heels as their feet grow (as a fair few WBs do) as it takes the stress off the navicular region.

To be honest your lad looks like he'd benefit more from a correct trim and an ordinary (if any) set of shoes


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

Munchkin said:



			The whole idea of "natural balance" is that the breakover point allows foot growth without altering the heel/pastern axis.  You can see by looking at the angle of your horse's foot that that wouldn't happen.

Also, the shoe is generally further back on the foot, balancing the heel and with more toe over the front of the shoe. 

It's good for horses who drop dramatically onto their heels as their feet grow (as a fair few WBs do) as it takes the stress off the navicular region.

To be honest your lad looks like he'd benefit more from a correct trim and an ordinary (if any) set of shoes 

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Can you explain the angle bit? I'm a bit slow and dont understand what it means and why it wouldnt happen on my lad?

I'm confussed, the vet told me he was on his heels and in my post last week people told me they were low. so surely that means he would benefit from these, also to help with his tripping?


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## irishdraft (5 August 2010)

Skewbald86 Im not surprised you are confused when so many people are telling you so many things. I agree with the general concenus that the pics of the NB shoeing look pretty horrendous. I had a horse who had NB shoes for a while, he didnt need them but it was all the rage with the particular farrier who came to that yard, he was a decent farrier and they looked completly different from yours. The overhang on the foot pictured does not look right whatever the reason, if the horse needs that then it should have a proper feather edge i think its called. Look up the worshipful company of farriers and try to get a master farrier, then get a decent equine vet to advise you and stick to their advice, the more advice you listen to the more confused you will get. Good luck with your horse you are trying to to the best thing by him.


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## ester (5 August 2010)

skewbald might I suggest, given the responses and your confusion that you maybe email the pics to your vet and see what they think, and maybe get them out in coordination with a farrier as to the best way forward so that you are happy at what is being done. 

I have only had one encounter with NB shoes on a loan arab we had done by a farrier I would rate (he later shod ours until he emigrated) but it wasn't good. It was fine when he was in light work but when we took him on his work was upped and he completely knocked his toes off so they were squared off to where the shoe sat. He went back into front toe clip shoes and was fine.

just to add am sure your vets will be very happy to help you out at this stage when you havent had her very long rather than having to treat any problems that might arise if its not done right.


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## Munchkin (5 August 2010)

If you type 'heel-pastern axis' into Google images there are some good diagrams - easier than me trying to explain!


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## skewbald86 (5 August 2010)

ester said:



			skewbald might I suggest, given the responses and your confusion that you maybe email the pics to your vet and see what they think, and maybe get them out in coordination with a farrier as to the best way forward so that you are happy at what is being done. 

I have only had one encounter with NB shoes on a loan arab we had done by a farrier I would rate (he later shod ours until he emigrated) but it wasn't good. It was fine when he was in light work but when we took him on his work was upped and he completely knocked his toes off so they were squared off to where the shoe sat. He went back into front toe clip shoes and was fine.

just to add am sure your vets will be very happy to help you out at this stage when you havent had her very long rather than having to treat any problems that might arise if its not done right. 

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Thats a great idea, did not think of that!
After this farrier being slated on here though don't know if i'd want him again. I just want whats best for my lad.
I've been looking at other farriers that cover my area. Joe Bryan has been mentioned on another post here as a great farrier and is a member of the england horseshoeing team so can't be bad. will try him.
Thanks for everyones advice really appreciate it


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## LucyPriory (6 August 2010)

skewbald86 said:



			by event lines do you mean the ring around his feet? the vet said these are from the fact he had been starved for the last 6 months and not getting the nutrients he needs. 
Just so you know I have only had him for about 3months, these are not my doing, I'm trying to get the best for my boy and correct what state hes been left in.
		
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Def change your vet   Event lines are the horizontal rings around the hoof.  Often rasped out by the over zealous.

Event lines - so called because they mark an 'event'.  Sometimes good ie a positive change in diet or exercise regieme.  More usually too much sugar/simple starch, sometimes a wormer or vaccination can cause them.

A horse can be 'starved' but still get too much sugar.  Whether you take this to mean deprived of a balanced diet or simply not enough calories.

Horses on the short grass typically seen in 'starvation' paddocks are often getting grass which is very high in sugar.  Because stressed grass is high in sugar see www.safergrass.org for the details and research.

It is impossible to be accurate about hooves from photos.  However the hoof in the second photo is showing a big pink event line just above half way down and another fainter one further down.  These are not good and I would suspect a lami attack or something equally traumatic.

The first picture is bull nosed, the second picture has had the toe rasped out, and the fourth picture appears to be showing forward flare (along with underslung heel but that is another matter).  All potential indicators of on-going lami or LGL type issues.

Some vets refuse/fail/ to recognise or do not understand early lami or LGL symptoms, being unwilling for whatever reason to diagnose until such time as the horse has become extremely compromised.

Putting the issue of the less than ideal shoeing to one side.  Please consider reviewing your horse's diet with a view to reducing sugar/simple starch intake and ensuring that a good mineral balance is acheived.

I appreciate you are working with what you inherited.  Good for you for taking on the challenge.  Best place to start is sorting the diet.


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## teddyt (6 August 2010)

If you change a horses foot balance then it takes time for them to get used to it. there may be shortened strides and/or lamenes  in the meantime. You actually have to work them with the new feet, not rest them- contrary to popular opinion. Foot balance affects the horse all the way up the limb and the back. To see what i mean try wearing a new pair of shoes with a higher heel than youre used to. Wear them 24/7d i bet you will walk differently until you get used to them!

With regards to changing farrier- talk to him! He cant work miracles in one shoeing. Ask him about your horse and his plans to educate yourself. Feet are a work in progress, and a farrier can only do so much and work with what hes got to work with. If youre still not happy a few shoeings down the line then change but i think you need to give the new bloke a chance!


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## Holidays_are_coming (6 August 2010)

Gosh I would be confused with everyone giving advice, my Tb had nb shoes and they had a very wide bar at the front, which was set back as he had such thin soles and they helped his breakover point!

The hoof pastern axis is important, in theory it should be a nice straight line from the pastern to the floor, I always ask my farrier what he is doing and why, while my farrier was injured I went through 3 different farriers as they all did a **** job. My present farrier asks me not to do much with my horse straight after she has been shod especially if he has changed a lot! 

I would give him a call and explain what has happened to your horses stride, if you dont get a suitable answer call the vet and send pic, it may be a case of needing more time to settle, or they may not be suitable for him. 

/hope u get it sorted, but dont panic!


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## Holidays_are_coming (6 August 2010)

teddyt said:



			With regards to changing farrier- talk to him! He cant work miracles in one shoeing. Ask him about your horse and his plans to educate yourself. Feet are a work in progress, and a farrier can only do so much and work with what hes got to work with. If youre still not happy a few shoeings down the line then change but i think you need to give the new bloke a chance!
		
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Totally agree


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## oliversmummy (6 August 2010)

Hi There - she went back to normal as soon as she had the normal shoes back on! 
Good luck which ever you chose to do, it's so hard sometimes, but if your boy moved well before it seems like a good idea to put him back in normal shoes again.


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## Kaylum (6 August 2010)

I know nothing about NB shoes.  but what would seriously concern me is that overhang.  Surely its going to be very easy for the horse to pull it off or scrape its other leg?  Or is that not the case?  Enlighten me


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## destiny11 (6 August 2010)

My mare was diagnosed with arthritic changes in her coffin joints.  My vet recommended she have NB shoes.  They have been great, she has been sound for three years with the NB shoes and Cartrophen injections.  My other mare though has normal shoes as she doesn't need NB


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## skewbald86 (6 August 2010)

i've spoken to the farrier, he said its not from the NB shoes its the change in his feet shape and should be better within a few days.If its not by monday I will have to call him again. 
I sent a link of pics to the HO of NB shoes in USA, He didnt recon they were very good but I have to send him more detailed pics to confirm this.
Sorry to be stupid but whats LGL?
The field he was on litterally had no grass, was a muddy 1 acre paddock, when I went to see him (the owner wasnt there) he had been left in (for the whole day) without any hay, so not sure about the lami bit? But I know nothing about this topic as never had to deal with this.
A few of the traumas showing on the feet I asked the farrier about, he said on was a burst abcess and others might be due to past bad shoeing?


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## ester (6 August 2010)

was just catching up on this thread

LGL is low grade laminitis


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## Tiffany (6 August 2010)

Can anyone explain exactly what NB shoes are ?

I'm no expert and I know it's only the first time this farrier had shod your horse so, if you vet is happy I'd give him time to improve his feet over time.


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## Storminateacup (6 August 2010)

I am in total agreement with what Jennyharvey has to say here, my horse was shod for some 6 months in NB shoes and it made the whole thing worse, his heels  became more and more underrun and his toes longer. I have just taken on the services of an EP and already my boy has been so much better and his heels have really started to grow down rather than forward, he still has painfully long toes but overall I am seeing a huge improvement, he is not tripping so much and is far better downhill. I also have to feed a special high protein low sugar diet and feed base.  My youngster will never be shod. The pictures of your horses feet look like mine did for years even prior to the NB shoes, there was never any improvement in the underrunn heel, long toe conformation, and I would recommend you seek out a barefoot solution. Can only reiterate Jennys advice. 
Also IMHO your farrier has done a pretty poor job alround for all the reasons mentioned throughout this thread, they do look terrible.


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## skewbald86 (8 August 2010)

Kaylum said:



			I know nothing about NB shoes.  but what would seriously concern me is that overhang.  Surely its going to be very easy for the horse to pull it off or scrape its other leg?  Or is that not the case?  Enlighten me 

Click to expand...

The overhang is on the ouside so not sure it would injure him or not?

I rode him again yesterday in the school. he was really hard work, not extending (which he does without being asked normally) throwing his head up when asked for trot and canter, which he never does, he always stays in a lovely outline through transitions, and when in canter he kept breaking into trot. He was so chopy, it was like riding a pony. He also had his ears back the whole time (not like him) I'm worrying the big change may damage his legs? He has fine TB legs and I don't want to put any strain on them. I have a lesson on tuesday, so I'll see if my instructor notices a difference.


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## brighteyes (8 August 2010)

I think it is really difficult to tell from photographs unless they have been taken on a flat, level surface with the the camera directly on the ground and at a perfect central position on the hoof.

Your farrier explained what he did and why and if it sounded reasonable to you at the time, it probably was.  

Why do farriers spend years training to do the job, pass the exams and then suddenly decide to shoe horses in their own style?  Do they do this?

Why do unqualified people think they can can pass comment on shoeing jobs and why do farriers disagree with one another's efforts?

It's a minefield!

An overhang on a shoe is generally to help the weight of the horse travel to the ground down the correct path and not through a line supplied by an incorrectly formed foot?

On the inside, they provide an unhelpful point for possible, accidental tread-removal.


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## foraday (8 August 2010)

My horse was in NB shoes for over 6 years and this kept him sound!

They do have to be fitted by a Farrier that HAS HAD THE TRAINING!

From the pictures shown it doesn't look like they have been fitted correctly but it could be the pics!

NB shoes quite literally make the horses feet look 'square' I used to call my horses feet donald duck as they looked square.  The break over should be 60/40.

NB shoes are not for everyone-some horses it suits and some it doesn't.  Ideally you should be able to take them out of NB shoes and put them into quarter clips.  However my boy did not approve of his quarter clips and preferred his NB shoes and so he remained in them.

It may take a couple of days for your horse to get used to them and to undo a bit of muscle memory but see how he goes.


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## skewbald86 (9 August 2010)

foraday said:



			My horse was in NB shoes for over 6 years and this kept him sound!

They do have to be fitted by a Farrier that HAS HAD THE TRAINING!

From the pictures shown it doesn't look like they have been fitted correctly but it could be the pics!

NB shoes quite literally make the horses feet look 'square' I used to call my horses feet donald duck as they looked square.  The break over should be 60/40.

NB shoes are not for everyone-some horses it suits and some it doesn't.  Ideally you should be able to take them out of NB shoes and put them into quarter clips.  However my boy did not approve of his quarter clips and preferred his NB shoes and so he remained in them.

It may take a couple of days for your horse to get used to them and to undo a bit of muscle memory but see how he goes.
		
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Glad they helped keeping your horse sound.
is there a website of finding out if they are trained? The NB HO directed me to a website to qualified people and he isn't on their. they all seem to be a bit to far south for me. 


He was still going badly yesterday. He has not heat in his legs though, maybe he just doesn't like them? hes normally so sweet in his going I hate to see him unhappy. Will give it a week and get someone out for a second opinion.

Thanks again for everyones advice


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## Natch (9 August 2010)

Yes, I believe farriers should have training in natural balance shoes as the whole concept is very different to how they are trained.  I'm not convinced by the argument for them. 

* insert usual disclaimer that I am a layperson who has studied feet for the last year or so but am not qualified*



skewbald86 said:



			Hi,
After my post last week about the state of my lads shoes, I go a new farrier.
He did them yesterday and used natural balance shoes on him.
His feet I think look great compared to what they were like.
The only thing is he is moving differently. I expected a bit of change as the farrier said it will change his movement slightly.
He has gone from lovely long paces to short choppy paces, he doesn't look sure of them when hes walking, I only hacked him today to get used to them but he took a bit off kicking on. He did improve ever so slightly in them but not to his usual lovely big strides.
		
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This change in his gait would really concern me - if a farrier had just replaced shoes, or a barefoot trimmer had just attended to your horse, you'd expect their feet to be in prime condition, wouldn't you? 








to me, the toe looks horrible here - I'd want to ask my farrier and vet why does it have such a convex line rather than straight?

Heel looks under run to me - again, I'd be asking what is being done to correct this, and how does that work?







I'd be interested if this is just the camera angle, but to me this looks medio-laterally unbalanced (if you drew a line down the centre of the hoof and leg, there is slightly more on the horse's left - the viewer's right). There is also a bit of flare.







I think these heels are slightly medio-laterally (side to side) unbalanced. 






[/QUOTE]

This to me just surmises why your horse isn't comfortable. If you chopped the hoof in slices from coronet to sole, the sole would be much smaller than the coronet... imagine the pressure on the internal structures, and/or how thin/weak the sole and lower hoof wall is.

All in all, I would take those pics to your vet and farrier, and ask a shed load of questions, and educated yourself as much as you can from a wide range of sources on the horse's hoof, its structures, what normal and NB shoeing does, and the implications for the horse's ability to work of any abnormalities.

If you PM me your email address I can send you a document I wrote for college about hoof balance, that should give you an idea of the basics, and some references for further reading


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## Kallibear (10 August 2010)

Horrible shoeing. The farrier has tried to acheive, through chopping bit of his feet off, a 'healthy' foot shape, but without the healthy foot being there. It's like trying to force a pearshaped size 16 woman into a an athletic shaped size 12 corset.

1) he has had far too much toe dumped off the front. His toes are long and his feet flat because of his heels and poor internal structures. Just chopping off the toe won't suddenly make the foot better. It's also destroyed his hoof-pastern axis, giving him upright 'boxy' feet.

2) he has underun (but not long) heels. What exactly is the masses of shoe behind his heels trying to achieve? How exactly is it meant to encourage the heel to grow down at a steeper angle (which is what it needs to do)?

I don't see how you could quickly encourage those feet to grow a healthier and better shaped foot with shoes on, since they problems were caused by shoes in the first place. But I do know that how to fix them within a couple of months barefoot.

This is the healthy, well shaped foot the farrier has tried to achieve by chopping bit off - but it only comes from correct use of the foot: (and yes, the very short foot is how they're MEANT to look)


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## spookypony (10 August 2010)

skewbald86 said:



			T
I rode him again yesterday in the school. he was really hard work, not extending (which he does without being asked normally) throwing his head up when asked for trot and canter, which he never does, he always stays in a lovely outline through transitions, and when in canter he kept breaking into trot. He was so chopy, it was like riding a pony. He also had his ears back the whole time (not like him) I'm worrying the big change may damage his legs? He has fine TB legs and I don't want to put any strain on them. I have a lesson on tuesday, so I'll see if my instructor notices a difference.
		
Click to expand...

Not going to comment on the shoeing job, but _that_ ^ ^ ^ , IMO, tells you what you need to know: he's uncomfortable, and the likely candidate is his feet. What you are describing is exactly what I saw when my pony had LGL in June: shortened strides, resistance to being asked to up the pace, tension, general unhappiness. How did the lesson go? I'd call up the vet and explain your concerns, and if you're not completely happy with his answer, get a second opinion from another vet and another farrier.


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## skewbald86 (10 August 2010)

Just got back from my lesson. He went alot better,  no throwing of the head and his canter was lovely and his strides were back to being long again, he was doing best shoulder in he has ever done so far and ears pricked, so relieved.
My instructor said she would give him a week or so to settle into his new shoes.
I am looking at changing farrier though after all the bad comments.


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## LucyPriory (11 August 2010)

I find it a bit odd that horses have to be given a day or two or even longer to adjust to new shoes.  Surely if they are correct the horse should be fine?  After all that is the standard that most of us apply to barefoot trimmers?


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## the watcher (11 August 2010)

LucyPriory said:



			I find it a bit odd that horses have to be given a day or two or even longer to adjust to new shoes.  Surely if they are correct the horse should be fine?  After all that is the standard that most of us apply to barefoot trimmers?
		
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I disagree. If the work being done is remedial then i would anticipate a change in striding and movement, particularly if you are prgressing away from a previously very bad shape. The horse adjusted to the bad shape they were in before through growth, you have just undone all that with a trim or shoes and have to allow time for all the structures of the foot and leg (and even spine and pelvis) to adjust again.

Remedial work isn't always pretty in the process. I have been working on one that arrived in late spring with long toes, caudal pedal bone rotation, badly underrun heels and early signs of hock arthritis that may or may not have been related to poor foot balance. They were out of balance from side to side too. The shoes required to repair these problems were hand built and while changes have been taking effect I have taken the decision to do very little work on the horse, although he has been at liberty to scoot around the field as much as he likes. He has only been ridden on a soft surface in walk and trot.

Several months on his feet are really growing nicely and his muscle growth around his pelvis has improved substantially. This weekend he will be changing from his hand built platform shoes into NB shoes, this is still part of a process with the ultimate aim of getting him into quarter clip shoes on the front and ideally unshod behind if he can cope with it.

I expect the entire process to take up to 9 months, his workload will progress slowly during that time so as not to undo what we have acheived so far, or create new stresses as his point of balance changes.

In my view, making enormous changes to repair damage that may have occurred over a period of time cannot be done in a shorter time scale and far too many people are in too much of a rush to see results.


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## KatB (11 August 2010)

Completely agree with the_watcher. 

I don't think the shoeing job done is bad. The horse has tonnes of heel support, and the shoe is well shaped. However, neither is it a true "natural balance" shoe, it is just a pulled back toe with no clips to change the breakover point and with lots of heel support. I would stick with this farrier and see how he looks in 3 or 4 shoeings time.


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## skewbald86 (11 August 2010)

KatB said:



			Completely agree with the_watcher. 

I don't think the shoeing job done is bad. The horse has tonnes of heel support, and the shoe is well shaped. However, neither is it a true "natural balance" shoe, it is just a pulled back toe with no clips to change the breakover point and with lots of heel support. I would stick with this farrier and see how he looks in 3 or 4 shoeings time.
		
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yay! thanks for the positive post dont feel so much of a bad mommy now!
his feet arent going to look as good as some other peoples horses feet, but they were in a bad state. and after all he is a highly qualified farrier so I was shocked at how bad the reviews on the shoeing job are.


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## Peter026 (11 August 2010)

the watcher said:



			I disagree. If the work being done is remedial then i would anticipate a change in striding and movement, particularly if you are prgressing away from a previously very bad shape. The horse adjusted to the bad shape they were in before through growth, you have just undone all that with a trim or shoes and have to allow time for all the structures of the foot and leg (and even spine and pelvis) to adjust again.

Remedial work isn't always pretty in the process. I have been working on one that arrived in late spring with long toes, caudal pedal bone rotation, badly underrun heels and early signs of hock arthritis that may or may not have been related to poor foot balance. They were out of balance from side to side too. The shoes required to repair these problems were hand built and while changes have been taking effect I have taken the decision to do very little work on the horse, although he has been at liberty to scoot around the field as much as he likes. He has only been ridden on a soft surface in walk and trot.

Several months on his feet are really growing nicely and his muscle growth around his pelvis has improved substantially. This weekend he will be changing from his hand built platform shoes into NB shoes, this is still part of a process with the ultimate aim of getting him into quarter clip shoes on the front and ideally unshod behind if he can cope with it.

I expect the entire process to take up to 9 months, his workload will progress slowly during that time so as not to undo what we have acheived so far, or create new stresses as his point of balance changes.

In my view, making enormous changes to repair damage that may have occurred over a period of time cannot be done in a shorter time scale and far too many people are in too much of a rush to see results.
		
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At last someone with a bit of sense

OP Rome was not built in a day, Some posters are complaining about M/L imbalance. Without full Lower leg shot, how does one know that this is an imbalance? was the Horse shod to footfall? I think yes, so all this shooting down the Farrier without the full knowledge of the conformation of the horse in question stinks. Stick with this Farrier and eventually the feet will come right


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## icestationzebra (12 August 2010)

Skewbald - have a look at this website.  Lots of useful information from one of the best natural balance farriers in the country.  Shame you are not in the South East, but you could try asking Clive if he recommends anyone in your area.  However, as others have said, corrective shoeing takes time and I would give your present farrier a chance to do his job.  If your horse is happy and sound then let nature do its work.

http://www.equinefootprotection.co.uk/about-equine-foot-protection.html


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