# Adelinde Cornelissen - happy horse?



## cptrayes (20 October 2013)

This month's British Dressage magazine quotes Adelinde Cornelissen saying




			For me, a horse has to be happy
		
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Really?

What about this then Adelinde, a picture of you warming up Parzival in your normal fashion at the Olympics?:

http://cs.thehorse.com/blogs/2012-london-olympics-equestrian-coverage/Parzival hyperflexion.jpg


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## hnmisty (20 October 2013)

If you're happy and you don't know it tuck your head in until your nose touches your chest?


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## FlaxenPony05 (20 October 2013)

Context?


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## doriangrey (20 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			This month's British Dressage magazine quotes Adelinde Cornelissen saying



Really?

What about this then Adelinde, a picture of you warming up Parzival in your normal fashion at the Olympics?:

http://cs.thehorse.com/blogs/2012-london-olympics-equestrian-coverage/Parzival hyperflexion.jpg

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A picture says a thousand words.  Horses are so generous.


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## cptrayes (20 October 2013)

FlaxenPony05 said:



			Context?
		
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An interview where she answered the question "why is it important for the dressage horse to be a happy athlete" with those words first.

It may be important to point out here that the photo I picked up is not just a moment in time. There is extensive video of her doing the same and it is routine for her to school and warm up Parzival in rollkur. In fact that picture shows the horse a lot less  unhappy in appearance than others I could have found.


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## doriangrey (20 October 2013)

Is it possible that doing these exercises consistently could be contributing towards skeletal changes such as KS?


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## FlaxenPony05 (20 October 2013)

Urgh. Not nice.


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## littleladylou (20 October 2013)

Yuk. BD should be having more of a say on the later


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## charlie76 (20 October 2013)

Moment in time.


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## cptrayes (20 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			An interview where she answered the question "why is it important for the dressage horse to be a happy athlete" with those words first.

It may be important to point out here that the photo I picked up is not just a moment in time. There is extensive video of her doing the same and it is routine for her to school and warm up Parzival in rollkur. In fact that picture shows the horse a lot less  unhappy in appearance than others I could have found.
		
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charlie76 said:



			Moment in time.
		
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Not at all, as I already pointed out.


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## Megibo (20 October 2013)

These people really can't call themselves professional riders, when they use that method.


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## FlaxenPony05 (20 October 2013)

charlie76 said:



			Moment in time.
		
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Yep, definitely just a moment in time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InfgSpAl_GY


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## amandap (20 October 2013)

charlie76 said:



			Moment in time.
		
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Why do I get the strong feeling the horse didn't put himself in that position? 

Why anyone wants to obstruct a horses airway in any way whatsoever is beyond me but especially when that horse is having to perform very demanding work! 

I have seen the odd video of him looking relaxed but as they say... it's how you get there that really matters for longevity and state of mind/low stress!


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## cptrayes (20 October 2013)

FlaxenPony05 said:



			Yep, definitely just a moment in time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InfgSpAl_GY

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Why would anyone want to pay fifty quid a day to see her speak at the BD National Convention which the interview is advertising??


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## Pigeon (20 October 2013)

I just got that issue in the post, and I did wonder at their decision to include that particular quote. 

And it's not a moment in time, there are literally hundreds of photos on google of her riding like this.


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## claracanter (20 October 2013)

FlaxenPony05 said:



			Yep, definitely just a moment in time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InfgSpAl_GY

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I couldn't watch all of this. The way she has his head in halt when the camera pans back after the shots of the people in the buggy is just cruel


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## cundlegreen (20 October 2013)

With "top" riders like this, I have a strong urge to cut the curb rein and see what happens....


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## Pale Rider (21 October 2013)

This witch has already been disqualified when her horse cut its mouth on the bit, stupid horse. Student of Anky van Rollkur, so no suprise there. Moment in time, only if you're on drugs.


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## Marydoll (21 October 2013)

Moment in time my ar$e ms Cornellissen has lots of these moments in time strung together like this then


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## fburton (21 October 2013)

"Moment in time" - a throwaway comment.


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## amandap (21 October 2013)

FlaxenPony05 said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InfgSpAl_GY

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Why is she leaning back and apparently hauling on a bit with a curb? I thought those bits were for refined/light communication with the horse through its mouth?
Imho, she is lucky the horse is only swishing its tail to show objection! Perhaps her real skill is knowing how much force to apply to just avoid an explosion?
Horrible in my view!


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## charlie76 (21 October 2013)

I never said she doesnt ride like that all the time but that picture IS a moment in time, she is obviously about to enter the arena to do her test so i dont imagine for one minute she continued to ride him like that thereafter as the marks would reflect it. 
Video evidence of the horse being ridden like it for prolonged periods is different. 
but drawing conclusions from a photo isnt always fair.


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## cptrayes (21 October 2013)

charlie76 said:



			drawing conclusions from a photo isnt always fair.
		
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We weren't. There is ample evidence that she consistently schools like that as I made very clear in my post before you said it was only a moment in time. In fact I used the very same expression.

What are BD doing condoning this abuse by having her present at a National BD event?


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## fburton (21 October 2013)

charlie76 said:



			Video evidence of the horse being ridden like it for prolonged periods is different. 
but drawing conclusions from a photo isnt always fair.
		
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No, you are right - and I'm sure that single photos have given misleading impressions before.

However, in this case, the photo clearly indicates the horse was ridden in hyperflexion (though not for how long, obviously) which means the rider is prepared to use this method, presumably in the usual protracted manner. It is _prima facie_ evidence for the rider's willingness to subject a horse to this.


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## MadJ (21 October 2013)

Didn't she say after the Olympics that she was reviewing her training to achieve a softer, less tense outline? 
Learning from the example set by Carl and Charlotte maybe?


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## TheTrotter. (21 October 2013)

Doesn't bother me..


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## amandap (21 October 2013)

TheTrotter. said:



			Doesn't bother me..
		
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That may be because you're not Parzival or another horse 'trained'/forced this way?


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## amandap (21 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			What are BD doing condoning this abuse by having her present at a National BD event?
		
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She's famous and does well in competitions? Winning comps is all that matters it seems to me as an outsider.


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## shampain (21 October 2013)

MadJ said:



			Didn't she say after the Olympics that she was reviewing her training to achieve a softer, less tense outline? 
Learning from the example set by Carl and Charlotte maybe?
		
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I was watching a reply of the Europeans the other night and was caught wondering about Adelinde and Parzival again (really disliked her riding style in the Olympics last year), especially as his Piaffe is so unconventional (yet still gets very high marks). I consequently asked my trainer what he thought about her as he has a heck of a lot more knowledge and experience than I do, to which he replied that a year or so ago he couldn't watch her as she was so, so tight with her hands and consistently hauled the horse's head in whilst leaning backwards and fixing against him, however that he'd since noticed that she'd begun to soften and attempt to have Parzival looser and taking his head forward more, which corresponded to an interview of her sometime last year saying words to the same effect. I still can't say that I enjoyed watching her in this year's ECs, however the horse didn't, IMO, look as tight as he did last year. It's also worth noting that the youtube link posted is dated 2010. Now, I'm in no way a fan of her or her riding style, just playing the devil's advocate a touch and trying to add a little bit of extra info to the conversation.


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## ester (21 October 2013)

She seems a somewhat odd choice for a BD convention when we have so many better options on site  - and I would think that most british riders would prefer their methods over hers.


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## cptrayes (21 October 2013)

TheTrotter. said:



			Doesn't bother me..
		
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Can you tell me the name of your trainer, so that I can avoid using them by mistake?


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## pip6 (21 October 2013)

Think it looks ruddy awful. Can't imagine life for the horse, bet he doesn't get turn out or hacking like Carl Hester's horses, who look happy. Stuck in a box all day, only to go to the school & be hauled about in the chops. No wonder dumb bloods are picked for dressage, few other blood horses would cope with it. Let the poor soul stretch & be a horse. If he's happier in the mind he'll be able to work better as will have less tension to start with. If an olympic gold medal winner can be turned out, any dressage horse can be.


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## Bernster (21 October 2013)

I'm no dressage rider but I think you can fairly easily spot a happy relaxed horse working into a soft contact.  I really disliked her ride at the Olympics and was surprised at the high marks she got - seems to spend a lot of time leaning back and hauling on the reins with pretty heavy hands (although I realise she is weeny and the horse is big).  He seemed pretty unhappy in his mouth to me.  Not nice to watch at all.


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## Booboos (21 October 2013)

It is very difficult to tell whether any horse is happy as they cannot express themselves and it is especially difficult to tell whether a horse we have absolutely no familiarity with is happy (what is he like at home? Does he eat well, does he display stress vices like box walking and cribbing, does he call out to other horses for comfort?) but my view is that a horse does not perform so brilliantly at the absolutely top level with such amazing consistency without being happy. 

Unwilling horses will only go that far before letting their riders down, competition, especially at that level and with such consistency, requires a co-operative horse that enjoys its job.

Calling her a 'witch' and misrepresenting a common occurence of a horse biting its tongue is very unfair. In the words of the much beloved Carl Hester, armchair critics should get out there and show us how they do better.


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## amandap (21 October 2013)

Booboos said:



			In the words of the much beloved Carl Hester, armchair critics should get out there and show us how they do better.
		
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Oh please, not that old chestnut!


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## pip6 (21 October 2013)

Stressage isn't my thing, but a happy, willing competition horse who loves their work is. On that level I think I do pretty well & am not an armchair critic but actually doing it. I use a myler, as my horse is over enthusiastic at times (she adores her work) & I don't want to be hauling on her, never has my horse cut her mouth or bled from it.


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## TheTrotter. (21 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Can you tell me the name of your trainer, so that I can avoid using them by mistake?
		
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I don't ride..


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## ozpoz (21 October 2013)

Booboos said:



			It is very difficult to tell whether any horse is happy as they cannot express themselves and it is especially difficult to tell whether a horse we have absolutely no familiarity with is happy (what is he like at home? Does he eat well, does he display stress vices like box walking and cribbing, does he call out to other horses for comfort?) but my view is that a horse does not perform so brilliantly at the absolutely top level with such amazing consistency without being happy. 

Unwilling horses will only go that far before letting their riders down, competition, especially at that level and with such consistency, requires a co-operative horse that enjoys its job.

Calling her a 'witch' and misrepresenting a common occurence of a horse biting its tongue is very unfair. In the words of the much beloved Carl Hester, armchair critics should get out there and show us how they do better.
		
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Really? I think horses are very expressive - I always know if they are happy or not under saddle. They may or may not be obedient, though....


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## TheTrotter. (21 October 2013)

amandap said:



			Oh please, not that old chestnut! 

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Its true though, do you ride at an olympic standard?


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## Booboos (21 October 2013)

amandap said:



			Oh please, not that old chestnut! 

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He only said it at the BD convention in 2012 so not that old really!


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## Booboos (21 October 2013)

ozpoz said:



			Really? I think horses are very expressive - I always know if they are happy or not under saddle. They may or may not be obedient, though....
		
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OK list which top dressage horses are happy and which are not, and please give us some kind of insight into your method for deciding this (animal communication does not count).


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## amandap (21 October 2013)

Booboos said:



			He only said it at the BD convention in 2012 so not that old really!
		
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That may be so but it is a phrase I've been hearing and reading for years to try and silence critics especially in horsemanship. You don't have to be a top level dressage rider to have eyes, half a brain and some understanding of horses to have an opinion from the horses POV!


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## fburton (21 October 2013)

And top riders are hardly likely to say (or even think) their horses are unhappy, are they?


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## fburton (21 October 2013)

Booboos said:



			[...] my view is that a horse does not perform so brilliantly at the absolutely top level with such amazing consistency without being happy.
		
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This is your view; I am not so sure myself. What I am sure about is that it is possible for a horse to be obedient (and hence co-operative, in a sense) without being happy.

In any case, isn't the argument about whether the horse is happy in hyperflexion, not during the test? I bet most horses would be relieved to be freed from the hyperflexed position.


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## amandap (21 October 2013)

TheTrotter. said:



			Its true though, do you ride at an olympic standard?
		
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ROFL!  Er, not even in my dreams! Nor a I am a show jumper, qualified vet or farrier but I have a right to criticise their work if horses are compromised. 

If we are not free to have an opinion, on any subject, then we may as well all go home.


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## ozpoz (21 October 2013)

An Animal Behaviourist would be able to answer you more scientifically Boo boos.
For me, I've been around equines for many years and I can tell by their expression, posture,response.


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## doriangrey (21 October 2013)

I thought dressage was supposed to mimic the natural movement of the horse (or is that just haute école)?  Anyhow, I've never seen a horse posturing with it's chin touching its chest before.


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## amandap (21 October 2013)

fburton said:



			In any case, isn't the argument about whether the horse is happy in hyperflexion, not during the test? I bet most horses would be relieved to be freed from the hyperflexed position.
		
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I've been pondering if this feeling of relief following hyperflexion explains why some of the tests look more relaxed.


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## Goldenstar (21 October 2013)

doriangrey said:



			I thought dressage was supposed to mimic the natural movement of the horse (or is that just haute école)?  Anyhow, I've never seen a horse posturing with it's chin touching its chest before.
		
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You never met mine then it's one of his Favorite games reversing round the field or into his friends in a proper rolkur position it's a bit bizarre but he does it a lot when he's playing along passage and piaffe and all the other moves .
He also plays with sticks looks like a huge Labrador .
He's a strange horse.


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## cptrayes (21 October 2013)

I don't have children. Does it mean I can't tell when a child is uncomfortable?

Booboos it may score high, but that does not mean that everyone agrees he is going well. His piaffe is a bizarre back end bounce with the front glued to the floor, yet it scores well.

At the Olympics he was constantly uneasy in his mouth, chomping at the bit.
.
When he was definitely in pain from his kissing spines, my own horse consented to do a test which got affiliated points , so I disagree that Parzival cannot have produced those results and been unhappy.


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## Booboos (21 October 2013)

amandap said:



			That may be so but it is a phrase I've been hearing and reading for years to try and silence critics especially in horsemanship. You don't have to be a top level dressage rider to have eyes, half a brain and some understanding of horses to have an opinion from the horses POV!
		
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There are a number of self styled experts out there who neither compete at top level, or train horses at top level, or train riders at top level, or have any scientific publications on horse physiology or ethology and still claim expertise. I do not agree with either them or you that all that is needed to be a horse expert is eyes and half a brain. 

Tell me this using your eyes and even the whole of your brain: what is it like to be a bat?


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## Booboos (21 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I don't have children. Does it mean I can't tell when a child is uncomfortable?

Booboos it may score high, but that does not mean that everyone agrees he is going well. His piaffe is a bizarre back end bounce with the front glued to the floor, yet it scores well.

At the Olympics he was constantly uneasy in his mouth, chomping at the bit.
.
When he was definitely in pain from his kissing spines, my own horse consented to do a test which got affiliated points , so I disagree that Parzival cannot have produced those results and been unhappy.
		
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His piaffe is exceptional with the most incredible engagement of his back end, which is why it scores so highly.

So now the claim is that Parzival is actually in pain and not just unhappy? How come this has been missed by every team vet, Olympic vet and international vet that has seen him in his long, long career? If it is possible for a horse to have a painful, major problem and still get Parzival's results then he is truly a wonderous horse.


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## doriangrey (21 October 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			You never met mine then it's one of his Favorite games reversing round the field or into his friends in a proper rolkur position it's a bit bizarre but he does it a lot when he's playing along passage and piaffe and all the other moves .
He also plays with sticks looks like a huge Labrador .
He's a strange horse.
		
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Yes, I've seen a lot of moves - my (then) stallion used to posture in front of the geldings and perform, even airs above the ground (separated by a 5 foot electric fence).  I've never seen any of my horses position themselves in rolkur - although they could easily scratch their chest with their teeth - guess it's different doing it because you want to and doing it because you are forced to..  We used to have a 'special' gelding, and when we played football in the field he would grab hold of the ball and run off.  He played with sticks too


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## Goldenstar (21 October 2013)

He also has an amazing ability to stay in rhytmn  even when clearly tense in most horses tension equals lost rhytmn but not in Parsizal .
However I have never admired the way they go as a pair and will never understand why the judges thought he was better than MH and LB in London ( clearly I am not a world class judge ) .
It does not mean you cannot see why he's been so sucessful


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## cptrayes (21 October 2013)

Booboos said:



			His piaffe is exceptional with the most incredible engagement of his back end, which is why it scores so highly.
		
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I see the back end bouncing, I do not see it engaged and supporting his front end. The last one I saw, he exploded and did not piaffe at all.





			So now the claim is that Parzival is actually in pain and not just unhappy? How come this has been missed by every team vet, Olympic vet and international vet that has seen him in his long, long career? If it is possible for a horse to have a painful, major problem and still get Parzival's results then he is truly a wonderous horse.
		
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 I did not say that Parzival was in pain. My horse was definitely in pain yet still got points. It is not a given that Parzival is happy just because he wins.


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## Wheels (21 October 2013)

Booboos said:



			His piaffe is exceptional with the most incredible engagement of his back end, which is why it scores so highly.
		
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We must be watching a different horse, his bum is up and down like a jack in a box lol

That is not engagement, it is the opposite


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## cptrayes (21 October 2013)

Booboos said:



			There are a number of self styled experts out there who neither compete at top level, or train horses at top level, or train riders at top level, or have any scientific publications on horse physiology or ethology and still claim expertise. I do not agree with either them or you that all that is needed to be a horse expert is eyes and half a brain. 

Tell me this using your eyes and even the whole of your brain: what is it like to be a bat?
		
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I'll repeat my question. I don't have children. Does that mean that I can't tell if a child is unhappy?

I do, on the other hand, have horses and just because I don't ride them at Grand Prix Internationally does not mean that I cannot watch a video and see photos and know whether the horse in them is comfortable at that time.

I think your argument does no justice to a person of your intellect and occupation Booboos. Are you seriously an internationalexpert in every single question that you consider as a member of your ethics committee?


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## amandap (21 October 2013)

Booboos said:



			There are a number of self styled experts out there who neither compete at top level, or train horses at top level, or train riders at top level, or have any scientific publications on horse physiology or ethology and still claim expertise. I do not agree with either them or you that all that is needed to be a horse expert is eyes and half a brain. 

Tell me this using your eyes and even the whole of your brain: what is it like to be a bat?
		
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 You left out the 'some understanding of horses' bit. Even with my full (small) brain I couldn't imagine what it's like to be a bat nor do I understand any of their communication signals or physiology etc. I have never spent time with bats or studied them to any level. 

Tell me what science and ethology say about the tail swishing, the extreme neck flexion, sight line and oxygen intake he has in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InfgSpAl_GY


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## Clodagh (21 October 2013)

Watching the Europeans this year I thought how much better Parzival was going, and he did look more relaxed. I think she saw how the Carl Hester trained horses go and tried to go more that way, well done her.


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## Goldenstar (21 October 2013)

Clodagh said:



			Watching the Europeans this year I thought how much better Parzival was going, and he did look more relaxed. I think she saw how the Carl Hester trained horses go and tried to go more that way, well done her.
		
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I also thought he looked softer , these riders are amazingly talented they will ' go' where they feel the marks are with their training .


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## Clodagh (21 October 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			I also thought he looked softer , these riders are amazingly talented they will ' go' where they feel the marks are with their training .
		
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Well yes if she hadn't been beaten at the Olympics then she wouldn't have changed her style, but I still think the overall picture was much more pleasing.


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## Pale Rider (21 October 2013)

Booboos said:



			It is very difficult to tell whether any horse is happy as they cannot express themselves and it is especially difficult to tell whether a horse we have absolutely no familiarity with is happy (what is he like at home? Does he eat well, does he display stress vices like box walking and cribbing, does he call out to other horses for comfort?) but my view is that a horse does not perform so brilliantly at the absolutely top level with such amazing consistency without being happy. 

Unwilling horses will only go that far before letting their riders down, competition, especially at that level and with such consistency, requires a co-operative horse that enjoys its job.

Calling her a 'witch' and misrepresenting a common occurence of a horse biting its tongue is very unfair. In the words of the much beloved Carl Hester, armchair critics should get out there and show us how they do better.
		
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Well Booboo, it's fairly easy to see if a horse is happy or not IMO. (You can have a debate about the use of the word happy and whether or not it is an appropriate word to use in this context, but leave me out, lol).

These horses, appear resigned to me and are coping in a situation they are trapped in. Trapped by the rider and the equipment. It's a lets get this over with situation. They co operate because it takes away the spur and the bit pain.

I like Carl Hester a lot, but coming out with remarks like that is a bit puerile, and he knows he's pretty safe having had some luck, help and opportunity other riders with his level of talent haven't had. 

Horses biting their tongue isn't that common occurrence, unless they are attempting to relieve pressure with their tongue. There was also some suggestion the horse was bleeding from cuts to the gum rather than the tongue, but I suppose the tongue story is maybe more 'acceptable'.

I think the woman is a witch as she like many other riders puts ambition and winning before the horse every time. I don't like that, but it obviously doesn't bother some others, who see horses as more of a tool or machine.

I'd like to think she has had a change of heart about her riding and looking to be a bit more horse friendly, for want of a better expression. On the other hand the events at the Olympic's may well have given her food for thought. I was fascinated to watch Charlotte's horses behaviour after the competition compared to Cornelissens.


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## MadJ (21 October 2013)

I thought Parzival's Euro test this year was far more pleasing to the eye than his Olympic performance. There did appear to be a positive change and a softer look to his way of going. He's a big, long horse (compared to the likes of Valegro) so possibly more likely to drop btv when he looses balance or gets anxious.
At least Adelinde is trying to move with the times. Credit where credit's due.


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## Puppy (21 October 2013)

ester said:



			She seems a somewhat odd choice for a BD convention when we have so many better options on site  - and I would think that most british riders would prefer their methods over hers.
		
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Exactly what I was thinking! 


It would be funny if they couldn't sell the tickets


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## Pigeon (22 October 2013)

Booboos said:



			There are a number of self styled experts out there who neither compete at top level, or train horses at top level, or train riders at top level, or have any scientific publications on horse physiology or ethology and still claim expertise. I do not agree with either them or you that all that is needed to be a horse expert is eyes and half a brain. 

Tell me this using your eyes and even the whole of your brain: what is it like to be a bat?
		
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I don't have dogs, know very little about dogs, but I can look at a dog and tell from it's posture and body language if it is anxious, excited, scared, cold etc. Surely that is just part of being a compassionate human?

I have no idea if rollkur is painful for a horse, or even uncomfortable, only the horse can tell us that. I do know that horses look uncomfortable in that position, and that it is physically compromising, and if the same results can be achieved without using that method, why resort to it?


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## Tnavas (22 October 2013)

We've just had her here in New Zealand for Equidays and she was awesome!

I'm sure we have all been guilty of doing something that is not quite agreeable - there are MANY riders who place their horses on the bit by see sawing on the horses mouth!


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## amandaco2 (22 October 2013)

I don't like the method she uses and can't see its very nice for the horse. Certainly very different in overall impression to Carl and Charlottes horses, who look more relaxed and harmonious.
Although I think he looks a bit more relaxed in recent tests.
Cant think when worked so roughly he can enjoy it.


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## Booboos (22 October 2013)

Apologies for the general reply but I have to pop the horses in and I don't have time to reply to individual messages:

- philosophy is the study of good arguments which means that the discipline concerns itself with absolutely everything from the philosophy of mathematics, to ethics, to political philosophy and the study of the metaphysics of time. I don't sit on ethics committees, I have in the past trained ethics committees. I have as much a right to comment on anything that takes my fancy on the forum as anyone else.

- piaffe is a diagonal movement and as such the hip bones will move up and down. Parcival's piaffe is extremely engaged as shown by the convex shape of his back and his hind legs coming really under his body. Makign one mistake in one piaffe in one test does not mean the horse cannot piaffe, it just means he is a horse.

- there is no evidence that working a horse in hyperflexion (or rollkur if you prefer) causes any kind of pain or sight problems, or breathing problems.

- by extension it is not clear to me why the horse would be unhappy as such.

- mental states, such as happiness, are subjective experiences of other subjects, whose minds we have no access to. We can only rely on what these subjects communicate to us and a supposition of commonality. The further away from the human experience one goes and the greater the barriers to communication, the more difficult it is to make assumptions about other states of minds. So it makes little sense to us as human beings to ask what it is like to be a bat as we'd need to imagine what it would be like to see the world through echo location rather than sight - an impossible task. Many PETA supporters see it as self evident that any use of horses in riding or as pets makes them unhappy and those of you who rely on your self-evident common sense to say that Parcival is clearly unhappy join very poor reasoning company with PETA and have no arguments to refute their self-evident claims. 

- one of the least subscribed BD conventions in the last decade was the first Jan Bemelmans year and we all know how silly the people who missed out on that one felt once it got around how brilliant he was! The second JB convention was full to the rafters. By all accounts Adelinde is a very good speaker and if people do not want to go see her I suspect it will be their loss.


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

Tnavas said:



			I'm sure we have all been guilty of doing something that is not quite agreeable - there are MANY riders who place their horses on the bit by see sawing on the horses mouth!
		
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Yes I'll hold my hands up to that, but I don't repeat it day after day!!!  This is not a one-off, it's how she trains horses.

Did you really pay to see a rider who gets to the top by sawing on the horse's mouth?  Are you planning on using her methods to win .more rosettes yourself?

For me, the end does not justify the means, sorry.


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

Booboos said:



			Apologies for the general reply but I have to pop the horses in and I don't have time to reply to individual messages:

- philosophy is the study of good arguments which means that the discipline concerns itself with absolutely everything from the philosophy of mathematics, to ethics, to political philosophy and the study of the metaphysics of time. I don't sit on ethics committees, I have in the past trained ethics committees. I have as much a right to comment on anything that takes my fancy on the forum as anyone else.

- piaffe is a diagonal movement and as such the hip bones will move up and down. Parcival's piaffe is extremely engaged as shown by the convex shape of his back and his hind legs coming really under his body. Makign one mistake in one piaffe in one test does not mean the horse cannot piaffe, it just means he is a horse.

- there is no evidence that working a horse in hyperflexion (or rollkur if you prefer) causes any kind of pain or sight problems, or breathing problems.

- by extension it is not clear to me why the horse would be unhappy as such.

- mental states, such as happiness, are subjective experiences of other subjects, whose minds we have no access to. We can only rely on what these subjects communicate to us and a supposition of commonality. The further away from the human experience one goes and the greater the barriers to communication, the more difficult it is to make assumptions about other states of minds. So it makes little sense to us as human beings to ask what it is like to be a bat as we'd need to imagine what it would be like to see the world through echo location rather than sight - an impossible task. Many PETA supporters see it as self evident that any use of horses in riding or as pets makes them unhappy and those of you who rely on your self-evident common sense to say that Parcival is clearly unhappy join very poor reasoning company with PETA and have no arguments to refute their self-evident claims. 

- one of the least subscribed BD conventions in the last decade was the first Jan Bemelmans year and we all know how silly the people who missed out on that one felt once it got around how brilliant he was! The second JB convention was full to the rafters. By all accounts Adelinde is a very good speaker and if people do not want to go see her I suspect it will be their loss.
		
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I think that you are both over intellectualising this issue and watching a different horse piaffe than I am.


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## Wheels (22 October 2013)

Parzivals legs do not come far enough under his body therefore he is not engaged. His back is very slightly rounded at certain points in the piaffe but not consistently and not rounded enough.


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## Tnavas (22 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Yes I'll hold my hands up to that, but I don't repeat it day after day!!!  This is not a one-off, it's how she trains horses.

Did you really pay to see a rider who gets to the top by sawing on the horse's mouth?  Are you planning on using her methods to win .more rosettes yourself?

For me, the end does not justify the means, sorry.
		
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I expect you did until someone told you that it was wrong and though I wouldn't go to an instructor that taught that there are many that do which is why the habit is perpetuated.

These photos are moments in time, I noticed that the horse looked like it was tilting its head so I wonder if what was captured was the horse being asked to flex to the left. A very common exercise.

We all  have different methods of training and the reports from Equidays from the people who had a lesson with her are all very positive - they thought she was wonderful.

I'm a classical person through and through so any pressure put on a horse is not in my training methods.


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## fburton (22 October 2013)

Booboos said:



			There are a number of self styled experts out there
		
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Having and expressing an opinion doesn't necessarily mean that one is claiming special expertise.




			who neither compete at top level, or train horses at top level, or train riders at top level, or have any scientific publications on horse physiology or ethology and still claim expertise. I do not agree with either them or you that all that is needed to be a horse expert is eyes and half a brain.
		
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Eyes and a brain (preferably a whole one) is a prerequisite though. Experience counts for a lot too, especially experience guided and tempered by the input of people who _have_ competed/trained at top level or are academically qualified. Not that any of those things _by themselves_ ensures expertise - top level people have been known to hold odd and/or incorrect beliefs. Actually I would say that experience counts the most, and I expect quite a few here have had decades of experience with horses while not all competing or training professionally.




			Tell me this using your eyes and even the whole of your brain: what is it like to be a bat?
		
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Red herring! That's a different philosophical question. Of course we cannot be 100% sure that what _looks_ like suffering or unhappiness actually is (arguably even in fellow humans). Nevertheless, we base our moral standards on the assumption that we can tell, at least to first approximation, whether animals are feeling fear, pain, distress, discomfort etc. If we were to accept the argument that, just because we can't know what it is _really like_ to be a bat that uncertainty allows all manner of mistreatment and cruelty, where would we be? Trying telling the RSPCA (for example) "Do you know what it is like to be a cat? No? So ****** off and leave me to carry on neglecting my house full of moggies" and see how far you get!


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## ester (22 October 2013)

but we aren't just talking about the photos are we- we are including the many videos that exist that show Adelinde sawing/bracking/over bending etc.. 

The fact that many riders put their horses 'on the bit' by sawing doesn't mean a pro should be doing it - though I suppose it has worked for her at least... 

Parzivals in his piaffe doesn't seem to sit behind and lighten the forehand with his hind legs underneath him as I have always thought correct for a piaffe more just bounces of his hind legs.

ETA- lack of evidence doesn't mean something isn't true (from a scientist  )


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## doriangrey (22 October 2013)

[video=youtube;O9EzqfQa2P4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9EzqfQa2P4[/video]


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## Booboos (22 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I think that you are both over intellectualising this issue and watching a different horse piaffe than I am.
		
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I don't see how a straw poll on a forum over whether a horse none of us even know is happy is the way to go. As for his piaffe there are quite a few international judges who think it's rather excellent and if we label them ignorant idiots we'll have to chuck out their placings of horses like Valegro, Uthopia and Mistral Hojis, not just the Dutch riders the British don't like.


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## fburton (22 October 2013)

Booboos said:



			- there is no evidence that working a horse in hyperflexion (or rollkur if you prefer) causes any kind of pain or sight problems, or breathing problems.
		
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When you say "sight problems", may I assume you're referring to acute restriction of vision _during_ hyperflexion rather than some chronic lasting effect on vision? If so, on what basis are you claiming that hyperflexion _doesn't_ restrict the ability of the horse to see where it's going? Or do you admit that it does, but that it isn't a problem?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 October 2013)

perhaps rather than getting so wound up in how the horse USED to go, would it not be better to discuss the things that have improved bewteen the olympics and the Euros? the horse is clearly softer, more open in the neck and more relaxed.....perfect it may not be (yet) but the rider is clearly trying to go down a different path having held her hands up and realised her mistake. Surely better to commend her for trying to rectify this situation than to continue to critisise her for what she USED to do?

i wouldnt be too critical of the piaffe either, it shows tremendous energy and ability to stay on the spot so although he doesnt *sit* as well as eg Valegro, is he any better or any worse than some horses which show tremendous sit but barely pick their hind feet up of the floor and seem to shuffle from one diagonal to the other?
I am going through a difficult time currently, trying to improve CS's piaffe and i can tell you that in a horse that doesnt naturally sit, its incredibly incredibly hard to influence the rhythm and the engagement. If you havent ever done this perhaps be a bit more cautious in your crit, as you have zero idea of just how hard it can be? The piaffe may not be the best on the circuit but neither is it the worst (by a long long way).

I also think that whilst there are moments that make me cringe and plenty of pics that show a clearly not happy Parcival, there are many many more pics of unhappy horses as basic amateur level and it would be interesting to watch vids of everyone who is so venomous towads Adelinde, on this thread. If you cannot ride at even nov, elem, or med level without your hands bouncing up in time with your seat bouncing up, yanking the horse every stride in the mouth, and slamming down on his back,showing no lateral suppleness and no softness over the back.................im really not sure you have any place to be so critical.
Dressage welfare is just as important at the lower levels and people would do well to look to themselves first before being quite so determined to hang draw and quarter Adelinde.


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## ester (22 October 2013)

dressage welfare is important at the lower levels... 

but I don't think it is completely irrelevant that those people are not riding in a professional capacity/giving talks/instructing others etc. 

fwiw I'd hope Frank would tell me if any of your list were true


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## Pale Rider (22 October 2013)

My comment would be that people supposedly at the top of their game in this sport should be an example to follow. 
In recent years few riders have inspired people in a good way. 
This whole rollkur thing has blighted this sport, top to toe.
In no way is it right or proper to accept what these riders do no matter what the result.
When the FEI say s no rollkur yet the are caught at it in secret training areas hidden from view, they add cheating to the inappropriate training methods.
Of course the Lowe end will be rubbish if they ape the top being rubbish.


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## fburton (22 October 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			perhaps rather than getting so wound up in how the horse USED to go, would it not be better to discuss the things that have improved bewteen the olympics and the Euros? the horse is clearly softer, more open in the neck and more relaxed.....perfect it may not be (yet) but the rider is clearly trying to go down a different path having held her hands up and realised her mistake. Surely better to commend her for trying to rectify this situation than to continue to critisise her for what she USED to do?
		
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Fair point. Has she actually come out and said her previous use of hyperflexion was wrong? Kudos to her if she has.


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## Goldenstar (22 October 2013)

I must agree looking to ourselves is a must more useful use of energy than getting heated over a top horse , 
Improve what you do improve the work of your horses.
I follow international riders a lot I have rider who I admire a lot and other that I admire Er a lot less but to get heated over someone you don't know and whose character you are not in much place to judge ( eg calling someone a witch ) is not productive .
Parsizal  does IMO sit as well as others in piaffe but it's conformation driven he's not built to sit like say Valegro but he shows great rhytmn ans energy in all his work.
He's clearly difficult but has been AC partner for a long time and it's not easy to get horses to last at the top level.
there I just defended my second most disliked combination that's going some for a tuesday morning .


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## ester (22 October 2013)

I didn't think the heat was over a top horse? more the selection of presenter/training method by BD?


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## fburton (22 October 2013)

I have not and will not call AC a witch because I simply don't know her. It is rollkur/hyperflexion which I don't like, for both welfare and aesthetic reasons (maybe more the latter if I am honest with myself). To do that to a horse just to get higher scores in a dressage test is well... yuck! (imo)


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## Pale Rider (22 October 2013)

I called her a witch.


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## nikicb (22 October 2013)

I just thought I'd add this comparison into the discussion (from a recent posting on a FB page I follow):

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f....1073741828.171985416283578&type=3&permPage=1

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...009.1073741828.171985416283578&type=3&theater


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 October 2013)

she has not outright said her use of rollkur/HF was wrong but what she has said is that she has taken on board comments made at the olympics and is workint towards a lighter, less compressed, way of going. So she accepts she was going down the wrong path or using too extreme methods and is now trying to change that to a certain degree (i doubt she isw going to stop the deep/LDR/rollkur/HF 100% but perhaps wont use it so much/so extremely/so prolonged?).


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## sbloom (22 October 2013)

If she had won would she be changing her way of training?  Of course we will never know...personal ethics versus the will to win.


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## vanrim (22 October 2013)

It amazes me how people are quick to criticise top riders and I think they forget that many of these horses would be downright dangerous for amateurs as they are so hot and sensitive. I for one would not criticise Adelinde as although I have trained my own horses to Prix St Georg level I would not dream of getting on something like Parzival, Salineiro, Scandic etc as I am sure they would scare the bejeezers out of me. Its a bit like people who never use draw reins have clearly never ridden a naughty youngster that is threatening to put you on the floor for fun! I would love to see how  long the people here who are criticising would last on top of Parzival!


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## Goldenstar (22 October 2013)

ester said:



			I didn't think the heat was over a top horse? more the selection of presenter/training method by BD?
		
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She is one of the worlds most sucessful riders ATM she has used a controversial training system that has produced this extremely difficult horse and kept him at the top level for a long time.
Surely to throw light and understanding on a system is good and I think quite brave of BD.
It would be very easy to get CH and everyone goes marvellous marvellous debate is good in this challenging what you think is good .
It's not as if everyone who attends is just going to trundle home and change everything they do because they won't .
But they will get stuff to think about and to challenge their thinking and that's always worthwhile .


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## amandap (22 October 2013)

Booboos said:



			- there is no evidence that working a horse in hyperflexion (or rollkur if you prefer) causes any kind of pain or sight problems, or breathing problems.

- by extension it is not clear to me why the horse would be unhappy as such.
		
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Happyness or unhappyness are probably not the best words to use as we really can't know as you point out. 

I believe there is evidence that rollkur causes physical and mental distress. http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/article/S0168-1591(08)00287-6/abstract
There are also studies using scopes which have shown a dynamic collapse of the trachea on inhalation when the neck is flexed severely. Although I am unsure how scientifically valid these may be and I believe others have been unable to reproduce this effect. 

Totally unscientific there is also the 'vibe' many of us not conditioned or used to seeing horses worked this way get from observing the horse. Many of us see the distress/discomfort or a horse struggling and even objecting to the extreme abnormal posture in exertion. Could there be an element of those in these circles being desensitized to this and not able to be fully objective? Culture and what we see and experience every day are powerful forces in our personal normality and ethics. My personal view is there is always a case for external critique, yes much may not be valid but being in a closed, untouchable, niche world is a recipe for skewed norms. 

I agree with fburton who puts things so much better than me.


fburton said:



			Of course we cannot be 100% sure that what _looks_ like suffering or unhappiness actually is (arguably even in fellow humans). Nevertheless, we base our moral standards on the assumption that we can tell, at least to first approximation, whether animals are feeling fear, pain, distress, discomfort etc. If we were to accept the argument that, just because we can't know what it is _really like_ to be a bat that uncertainty allows all manner of mistreatment and cruelty, where would we be? Trying telling the RSPCA (for example) "Do you know what it is like to be a cat? No? So ****** off and leave me to carry on neglecting my house full of moggies" and see how far you get!
		
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## amandap (22 October 2013)

vanrim said:



			It amazes me how people are quick to criticise top riders and I think they forget that many of these horses would be downright dangerous for amateurs as they are so hot and sensitive. I for one would not criticise Adelinde as although I have trained my own horses to Prix St Georg level I would not dream of getting on something like Parzival, Salineiro, Scandic etc as I am sure they would scare the bejeezers out of me. Its a bit like people who never use draw reins have clearly never ridden a naughty youngster that is threatening to put you on the floor for fun! I would love to see how  long the people here who are criticising would last on top of Parzival!
		
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Yes, if those of us not involved can't give a negative critique then surely that also applies to positive critique from 'outsiders'.

I always worry when claims are made that horses are potentially dangerous are too difficult for less 'expert' riders. Why? Dressage is supposed to produce a willing and obedient horse not a monster.


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## Goldenstar (22 October 2013)

amandap said:



			Yes, if those of us not involved can't give a negative critique then surely that also applies to positive critique from 'outsiders'.

I always worry when claims are made that horses are potentially dangerous are too difficult for less 'expert' riders. Why? Dressage is supposed to produce a willing and obedient horse not a monster.
		
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But they are willing and they are obedient .
Because the levels of energy and power the sharpness of the brain of the horses who have been selectively bred for this top end work does make them mounts for the best balanced most talented riders .
they are not monsters at all they are purpose bred for their job they are as specialist an animal as a F1 car is a specialist car and you would not want to take such a car to  sainsburys .
They are not produced to be ridden by an ordinary rider it's not what they are for .
Within the top level horses some are of course hotter than others because they are indviduals but they will all be very sharp by 'normal ' standards .

No amount of any sort of training would make say , Glock Uncover suitable for an ordinary rider.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 October 2013)

it doesnt produce a monster, but these horses are bred to be huge moving, elastic and super quick thinking plus reactive, which is a reciepe for disaster in the wrong hands and not many amateurs are going to be able to sit one side of it! so whilst they are willing and obedient for a good enough rider, for someone not good enough they are a disaster waiting to happen.

very few of these top athletes are going to be ballsy enough, and mentally reactive enough to compete at GP week in week out and also chilled anough to let joe blogs plod down the lane on them, to expect them to be both is unrealistic imo. They are not monsters, just fit, sharp, hot headed.


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## chestnut cob (22 October 2013)

amandap said:



			I believe there is evidence that rollkur causes physical and mental distress. http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/article/S0168-1591(08)00287-6/abstract
There are also studies using scopes which have shown a dynamic collapse of the trachea on inhalation when the neck is flexed severely. Although I am unsure how scientifically valid these may be and I believe others have been unable to reproduce this effect.
		
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I don't believe a) 15 horses makes for a statistically significant sample, b) you can extrapolate this result onto the entire population of working / competition horses worldwide, and c) you can talk about banning a practise based upon a sample of 15 horses (though I do note the study author says more work needs doing, but they don't say more of the same, just work to look at gradual RK training over coercive RK).

I've had a look at AC's most recent test and have to agree it looks a lot better than older tests.  The video that has been mentioned earlier in this thread is from a few years ago isn't it?  So I can't understand why it has been brought up now.  If the rider really is changing the way she trains and the horse is softer and less tense, then let's judge on what is in front of us now, not something that happened 3 years ago.

I also wonder... I practise yoga.  Many, if not all, of the stretches involve some form of hyperflexion of various body parts.  They are hard and you are aware of the position you are putting your body into.  If you look at vids/ pics of people who have been practising yoga for a long time, they can get into some incredibly hyperflexed positions and stayed there for a long time.  Now I know they have chosen to do that and the argument that will be thrown at me will be that the horse has no choice, but I know from my own body that while a stretch might be a bit uncomfy for a while, the benefits afterwards are massive.  The night before I have a riding lesson I will do an hour of back stretching and hip opening yoga poses, and the difference in my riding the following day is immense.  Then the evening after a lesson, I will usually do another back stretching session to relieve any tight muscles.  So one could question, what makes my yoga practise that much different to some hyperflexion in a horse?  Not necessarily advocating it, but it's worth considering.

I have a BEVA book and DVD on stretching for horses, and have stretches given to me by my horse's physio, which all consist of some form of hyperflexed stretch.  Stretches which take the horse's head to his chest, and between his front legs, are regularly recommended to lift, round and open the back.  My physio tells me of a vet practice she works with who, when they have performed KS surgery on a horse, will then recommend it spends 6 weeks being lunged in RK/ hyperflexion... to encourage it to lift, round and open up its back.


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## Brownmare (22 October 2013)

I wasn't going to comment on this thread as most of what I would say has already been said but I do want to point out, in response to PS's post above, that Valegro is hacked out once a week by an 80 year old lady. Just throwing that one out there


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## fburton (22 October 2013)

vanrim said:



			It amazes me how people are quick to criticise top riders and I think they forget that many of these horses would be downright dangerous for amateurs as they are so hot and sensitive. I for one would not criticise Adelinde as although I have trained my own horses to Prix St Georg level I would not dream of getting on something like Parzival, Salineiro, Scandic etc as I am sure they would scare the bejeezers out of me. Its a bit like people who never use draw reins have clearly never ridden a naughty youngster that is threatening to put you on the floor for fun! I would love to see how  long the people here who are criticising would last on top of Parzival!
		
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With respect, that's not the point.


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## _GG_ (22 October 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			it doesnt produce a monster, but these horses are bred to be huge moving, elastic and super quick thinking plus reactive, which is a reciepe for disaster in the wrong hands and not many amateurs are going to be able to sit one side of it! so whilst they are willing and obedient for a good enough rider, for someone not good enough they are a disaster waiting to happen.

very few of these top athletes are going to be ballsy enough, and mentally reactive enough to compete at GP week in week out and also chilled anough to let joe blogs plod down the lane on them, to expect them to be both is unrealistic imo. They are not monsters, just fit, sharp, hot headed.
		
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This ^^^

A GP horse understands precise and extremely subtle aids. There's the famous clip of Nicky (forget surname) riding one of Carl Hesters schoolmasters and falling off. She didn't do anything wrong, her riding was just not precise enough and subtle enough. The horse just did what she asked of it and responded to her aids. She didn't want faster and faster, but that's what she got when her legs gripped harder and harder. Nobody's fault but a good reminder that a highly schooled horse is not a novice ride. 

There are always exceptions, but I think they are rarer in dressage than any other discipline. The variation of aids for different movements can be a matter of cms of placement of the leg or the slightest shift of weight in the seatbone. Not the horses fault, just a result of the training.


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## amandap (22 October 2013)

I can see the big movement is a factor in riding ability as well as ability to train and ride to that level but is the temperament really all down to breeding? Seems a bit of that old excuse that is rolled out to explain away any human critique and excuse even validate coercive training.


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## amandap (22 October 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			she has not outright said her use of rollkur/HF was wrong but what she has said is that she has taken on board comments made at the olympics and is workint towards a lighter, less compressed, way of going. So she accepts she was going down the wrong path or using too extreme methods and is now trying to change that to a certain degree (i doubt she isw going to stop the deep/LDR/rollkur/HF 100% but perhaps wont use it so much/so extremely/so prolonged?).
		
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That is good to hear from an outsider.

Of course LDR is FEI legal and rollkur isn't. lol

ps. As a aside I was jumped on on another forum liking a video of a test this pair did! lol


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## _GG_ (22 October 2013)

Brownmare said:



			I wasn't going to comment on this thread as most of what I would say has already been said but I do want to point out, in response to PS's post above, that Valegro is hacked out once a week by an 80 year old lady. Just throwing that one out there 

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I could let a child hack out on Fly, but in the school I'd take a bullet before letting a child on her back.


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## kc100 (22 October 2013)

Going back to what the thread was originally started about - I personally would not want to pay to see someone that willingly has used/uses rollkur. It is great that she has changed her methods following the Olympics, good for her to accept she needs to change but as someone else already said, if she had won Olympic gold would she have changed anything? I highly doubt it.

And that is where my problem lies with her, she uses whatever method is most likely to enable her to win, not the method that she feels is best for the horse. Of course these are competition horses, and they are bred for a purpose - to compete to the highest level and to hopefully do well at that level. But it should not be at any price, the rider should want a relaxed comfortable horse over a tense, hyper-flexed horse.

It is not for us to say whether rollkur causes them pain, we are not equine mind readers - all we can say is that it doesnt look comfortable nor is it natural. As as a rider we should not want to put a horse into a position that to the human eye looks uncomfortable. 

If BD were going to get a foreign speaker for the convention I personally would have preferred to see Helen Langehanenberg (whatever her name is!) - I love watching her and Damon Hill, she would be very interesting as she is currently closest to rivaling Charlotte and Valegro. Or Edward Gal with his vast experience at top level dressage.


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## Goldenstar (22 October 2013)

amandap said:



			I can see the big movement is a factor in riding ability as well as ability to train and ride to that level but is the temperament really all down to breeding? Seems a bit of that old excuse that is rolled out to explain away any human critique and excuse even validate coercive training.
		
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Any one who has worked with lots of horses will tell you that the temperament traits are very very strong .You can sometimes gues the breeding by the way they go it's true of TBs too strong temperament traits in the family lines.
KWPNs are graded for trainability and that in effect means sharp how quickly they pick things up.
This does tend to make the top lines very challenging for the rider but it's true at the lower levels too my OH can't ride my horses they are just too tuned for him although most will manage a walking hack with him , the Dutch horse I have at the moment is from a very hot line he and my OH would be a disaster it would like a monkey playing with a razor blade .
I am very careful how I ride my OHs I amend my training to keep them right for him and we select temperaments suitable for him.
Of course poor training effects behaviour but any one who's bred horses will tell you they pop out of the womb with their character intact it's one of the amazing things about it you see it in dogs and people as well we are born with our characters what happens in life shapes it but you work with what you are given at birth.


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			perhaps rather than getting so wound up in how the horse USED to go, would it not be better to discuss the things that have improved bewteen the olympics and the Euros? the horse is clearly softer, more open in the neck and more relaxed.....perfect it may not be (yet) but the rider is clearly trying to go down a different path having held her hands up and realised her mistake. Surely better to commend her for trying to rectify this situation than to continue to critisise her for what she USED to do?

i wouldnt be too critical of the piaffe either, it shows tremendous energy and ability to stay on the spot so although he doesnt *sit* as well as eg Valegro, is he any better or any worse than some horses which show tremendous sit but barely pick their hind feet up of the floor and seem to shuffle from one diagonal to the other?
I am going through a difficult time currently, trying to improve CS's piaffe and i can tell you that in a horse that doesnt naturally sit, its incredibly incredibly hard to influence the rhythm and the engagement. If you havent ever done this perhaps be a bit more cautious in your crit, as you have zero idea of just how hard it can be? The piaffe may not be the best on the circuit but neither is it the worst (by a long long way).

I also think that whilst there are moments that make me cringe and plenty of pics that show a clearly not happy Parcival, there are many many more pics of unhappy horses as basic amateur level and it would be interesting to watch vids of everyone who is so venomous towads Adelinde, on this thread. If you cannot ride at even nov, elem, or med level without your hands bouncing up in time with your seat bouncing up, yanking the horse every stride in the mouth, and slamming down on his back,showing no lateral suppleness and no softness over the back.................im really not sure you have any place to be so critical.
Dressage welfare is just as important at the lower levels and people would do well to look to themselves first before being quite so determined to hang draw and quarter Adelinde.
		
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Sorry Princess, I don't and never will buy the ' you can't criticise unless you are a paragon of virtue yourself' argument.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 October 2013)

re Valegro, he is noted as being quite easy at home, but equally there is a pic of him rearing (and a bloody good rear) in the prizegiving at a show in Florida. So dont for a second think that horses trained in the *carl hester* way are 100% easy going and relaible and that LDR/rollkur/HF turns horses in to raving loonies, because its more about each horse in each individual situation.

ditto whoever pointed out about Nikki Chapman coming off Fernandez-a notoriously laid back GP horse but still far too much for the average rider.

Kc100- so you dont think Ed Gal ever puts Glocks Undercover very very deep to gain control of that hot headed powerhouse..........................thats no critisism of him but its interesting that Adelinde is a villain for riding deep and having a short tense horse but EG is not? Undercover is insanely tense at time, but somehow thats more acceptable? This is in NO WAY a critisism of either of them and there have been more pics of Adelinde that have made even me go "hmmmmmm" but i would bet there are just as many not so pretty pics of Undercover looking rather tense and strong and ditto Mistral Hojiris, a notoriously strong horse who in the early days needed a lot of obvious flexing and BIG half halts to keep him under control.
I think the shortening of the neck makes Undercover and Parcival appear worse than a horse which pulls but keeps its neck out, neither is any more correct but the latter more easily covered up.

what im trying to say in a very lond winded way is that there are SO many factors to take in to account and few people know the full story to each horse, so lets try and stick with the positives here, esp as Adelinde HAS said she is trying for more lightness now days.


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## fburton (22 October 2013)

chestnut cob said:



			I don't believe a) 15 horses makes for a statistically significant sample,
		
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Surely that depends on what you are trying to show. Evidently n=15 was sufficient to show effects to a standard level of significance (P<0.05) in the horses used in this trial.




			b) you can extrapolate this result onto the entire population of working / competition horses worldwide,
		
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No, but it is suggestive that the same considerations apply - assuming that they weren't unlucky in picking a totally unrepresentative sample of performance horses. 




			and c) you can talk about banning a practise based upon a sample of 15 horses
		
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No indeed - a point made in the abstract.

"These findings indicate that a coercively obtained Rollkur position may be uncomfortable for horses and that it makes them more fearful and therefore potentially more dangerous to ride. Further studies need to assess horses reaction to gradual training of Rollkur, as opposed to a coercively obtained hyperflexion, in order to decide whether the practice should be banned."


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## MadJ (22 October 2013)

Carl Hester deserves every bit of the recognition he's finally got outside of England. He truly is a master of his craft but it's taken so many years for the world to sit up and take note. Changes don't happen over night. The "Anky" way crept in slowly and became the norm as it got the medals.

10 years ago I worked at a pro dressage yard and those horses lived in draw reins and were lunged in 2 sets of tight side reins. I personally disliked it but it got results. I was actually disgusted at the pro's trainer (British Olympic level rider). Who was I to argue being a mere mortal and, at the time, still trying to master the art of sitting trot for any length of time? There's noway I'd treat my own like that.

I really hope this change that has come about in the dressage world is here to stay.


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## amandap (22 October 2013)

chestnut cob said:



			I don't believe a) 15 horses makes for a statistically significant sample, b) you can extrapolate this result onto the entire population of working / competition horses worldwide, and c) you can talk about banning a practise based upon a sample of 15 horses (though I do note the study author says more work needs doing, but they don't say more of the same, just work to look at gradual RK training over coercive RK).

I've had a look at AC's most recent test and have to agree it looks a lot better than older tests.  The video that has been mentioned earlier in this thread is from a few years ago isn't it?  So I can't understand why it has been brought up now.  If the rider really is changing the way she trains and the horse is softer and less tense, then let's judge on what is in front of us now, not something that happened 3 years ago.

I also wonder... I practise yoga.  Many, if not all, of the stretches involve some form of hyperflexion of various body parts.  They are hard and you are aware of the position you are putting your body into.  If you look at vids/ pics of people who have been practising yoga for a long time, they can get into some incredibly hyperflexed positions and stayed there for a long time.  Now I know they have chosen to do that and the argument that will be thrown at me will be that the horse has no choice, but I know from my own body that while a stretch might be a bit uncomfy for a while, the benefits afterwards are massive.  The night before I have a riding lesson I will do an hour of back stretching and hip opening yoga poses, and the difference in my riding the following day is immense.  Then the evening after a lesson, I will usually do another back stretching session to relieve any tight muscles.  So one could question, what makes my yoga practise that much different to some hyperflexion in a horse?  Not necessarily advocating it, but it's worth considering.

I have a BEVA book and DVD on stretching for horses, and have stretches given to me by my horse's physio, which all consist of some form of hyperflexed stretch.  Stretches which take the horse's head to his chest, and between his front legs, are regularly recommended to lift, round and open the back.  My physio tells me of a vet practice she works with who, when they have performed KS surgery on a horse, will then recommend it spends 6 weeks being lunged in RK/ hyperflexion... to encourage it to lift, round and open up its back.
		
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Of course a sample of 15 is not considered significant it was the first study I came across to refute the claim there was no evidence. I find it very odd that a practice has to be proved to be harmful as opposed to proving it isn't where welfare is a concern.

I assume you and your horses perform your extreme hyperflexion of the neck whilst moving at all paces carrying a weight? lol Oh and on most days for years.


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

chestnut cob said:



			My physio tells me of a vet practice she works with who, when they have performed KS surgery on a horse, will then recommend it spends 6 weeks being lunged in RK/ hyperflexion... to encourage it to lift, round and open up its back.
		
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As someone currently hacking and schooling a horse seven weeks post KS surgery, I can definitively say that this is not necessary. I did not even lunge mine in the pessoa that all vets seem to consider a mandatory part of the rehab, because I don't believe in trussing my horse up like a turkey.  (See my other threads in the vet section for video of him at 25 days on the lunge and 42 days ridden).


Ps by 'encourage' they mean 'force' of course. Nice way to treat a horse with a sore back and likely to add a sore neck to his rehab, I would think


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## Auslander (22 October 2013)

Bit of a random musing here, but it interests me that its mainly the Dutch riders  who are first to get hammered for Rollkur. Interesting because they predominantly ride KWPN horses, the majority of which have Gelderlander in their ancestry. Gelderlanders are a pretty unique shape - swan necked, hollow backs and flat rumps, with high action, all designed to make them great driving horses. The preponderance of Gelderlander in many KWPN horses, to me, makes for a lot of horses who don't have the physical frame to be able to work as round over the back as other warmblood breeds. They also tend towards excessively flashy action, and a tendency, enabled by the swan necked conformation, to suck up and back at the rider. I'm not saying that Rollkur is not used as a training tactic, just that there are a lot of horses who work in a way that is not pleasing to our eyes, but somewhat natural to them due to the way they are bolted together.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Sorry Princess, I don't and never will buy the ' you can't criticise unless you are a paragon of virtue yourself' argument.
		
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im no paragon of virtue but equally i can look at myself and my horses and be relatively content with how they are going/looking/appear in public. I never stop trying to improve, as Adelinde too is now trying to improve certain aspects of her work.
Some people are so blinded by their own waffle, they either dont want or cant, heed the advice given by judges etc and cannot see their own riding and lack of knowledge is the cause of their problems. Those people are in no place to crit anyone else IMO, because they are too blind or too ignorant or too big headed to see their own faults let alone try and understand the complexity of riding several hundred levels up.

big diff bewteen being a (relative to Adelinde) lower level rider,relatively succesful at that level, who doesnt like or doesnt understand what they see, and someone who has never produced anything note worthy, but harps on like they are the next Carl Hester! They need to spend less time online picking fault with others and more time taking lessons. But that, is a whole other topic


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## chestnut cob (22 October 2013)

fburton said:



			No indeed - a point made in the abstract.

"These findings indicate that a coercively obtained Rollkur position may be uncomfortable for horses and that it makes them more fearful and therefore potentially more dangerous to ride. Further studies need to assess horses&#8217; reaction to gradual training of Rollkur, as opposed to a coercively obtained hyperflexion, in order to decide whether the practice should be banned."
		
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And I did make that point later on in that sentence you quoted of my post.  Please don't quote me out of context to make your point.  I did state that the article said more studies were needed, looking at gradual RK training...


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## fburton (22 October 2013)

chestnut cob said:



			And I did make that point later on in that sentence you quoted of my post.  Please don't quote me out of context to make your point.  I did state that the article said more studies were needed, looking at gradual RK training...
		
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Yes, you did - and actually I wasn't contradicting you on that point! I disagreed with you on point a), commented on point b) and agreed with you on point c).


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## chestnut cob (22 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			As someone currently hacking and schooling a horse seven weeks post KS surgery, I can definitively say that this is not necessary. I did not even lunge mine in the lessons that all vets seem to consider a mandatory part of the rehab, because I don't believe in trusting my horse up like a turkey.  (See my other threads in the vet section for video of him st 25 days on the lunge and 42 days ridden).
		
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Yes, I've seen your posts and I'm pleased your horse is improving and feeling better.  But 1 horse is not a statistically representative sample.  Based on my own sample of one, I know that when I had a horse with exhibited back pain, after consultation with vet and physio, said horse had 6 weeks of lungeing in draw reins, pole work and flat schooling, and the difference in him was phenomenal.  Back pain disappeared entirely.


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## chestnut cob (22 October 2013)

fburton said:



			Yes, you did - and actually I wasn't contradicting you on that point! I disagreed with you on point a), commented on point b) and agreed with you on point c).
		
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Ah, sorry!


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			im no paragon of virtue but equally i can look at myself and my horses and be relatively content with how they are going/looking/appear in public. I never stop trying to improve, as Adelinde too is now trying to improve certain aspects of her work.
Some people are so blinded by their own waffle, they either dont want or cant, heed the advice given by judges etc and cannot see their own riding and lack of knowledge is the cause of their problems. Those people are in no place to crit anyone else IMO, because they are too blind or too ignorant or too big headed to see their own faults let alone try and understand the complexity of riding several hundred levels up.

big diff bewteen being a (relative to Adelinde) lower level rider,relatively succesful at that level, who doesnt like or doesnt understand what they see, and someone who has never produced anything note worthy, but harps on like they are the next Carl Hester! They need to spend less time online picking fault with others and more time taking lessons. But that, is a whole other topic 

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Who is this person you want to see taking lessons instead of posting on here Princess?

I rather thought this thread was getting interesting and entertaining contributions from lots of people. 

Can you specify which poster it is who you think has no right to comment on the riding of someone being paid to speak publicly by BD??


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## fburton (22 October 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			im no paragon of virtue but equally i can look at myself and my horses and be relatively content with how they are going/looking/appear in public. I never stop trying to improve, as Adelinde too is now trying to improve certain aspects of her work.
Some people are so blinded by their own waffle, they either dont want or cant, heed the advice given by judges etc and cannot see their own riding and lack of knowledge is the cause of their problems. Those people are in no place to crit anyone else IMO, because they are too blind or too ignorant or too big headed to see their own faults let alone try and understand the complexity of riding several hundred levels up.
		
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Several hundred, eh? Sorry, I just don't buy this "appeal to authority" argument. Would you also consider it wrong for anyone to criticize e.g. what Pat Parelli did to the headshy Catwalk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus) just because they are however many Parelli-levels below the great man himself?


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

chestnut cob said:



			Yes, I've seen your posts and I'm pleased your horse is improving and feeling better.  But 1 horse is not a statistically representative sample.  Based on my own sample of one, I know that when I had a horse with exhibited back pain, after consultation with vet and physio, said horse had 6 weeks of lungeing in draw reins, pole work and flat schooling, and the difference in him was phenomenal.  Back pain disappeared entirely.
		
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Which also does not prove that if you had treated him a different way he would not have had just as good a result.  I agree, one horse means nothing. Some proper research instead of insisting on box rest and restrictive lunging would be good to see for KS horses.


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## fburton (22 October 2013)

chestnut cob said:



			Ah, sorry! 

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No worries!  Feelings tend to run high when debating a subject like this, and I'm not immune from becoming a little heated myself.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 October 2013)

fburton said:



			Several hundred, eh? Sorry, I just don't buy this "appeal to authority" argument. Would you also consider it wrong for anyone to criticize e.g. what Pat Parelli did to the headshy Catwalk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus) just because they are however many Parelli-levels below the great man himself?
		
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im trying hard not just point blank say, if you are not at THAT level you cannot crit, and I have also said theres a big diff (IMO) between a fairly level headed "i dont undertsand this" from a lower level but fairly educated (riding wise) person and someone just point blank exclaiming "this is wrong" which more often than not tends to come from someone who thinks their way is the only way or is very evangelical about the particular way they do things.

the best riders (again IMO) are those who are open minded to all approaches and try to balance negative with positive, especially in the case of an obviously succesful rider. It silly to say that everything she does is wrong or abusive because if it were, she would not be at the top of the sport (as contrary to the waffle of the evangelicals, the whole sport is not a great big political con, twisted to allow animal abuse to win). There simply must be some good in some of what she does, but that rarely gets discussed/balanced.

Would i flex CS as hard as she does Parcival? No. Have i ridden horses in the past that have needed it? Yes. Have i done so? yes, to a slightly lesser degree, and looking back, some things i would change and some i would not. None of us are perfect, Adelinde icnluded and she is now trying a different path, so lets commend that and focus on what has improved instead of getting riled by a very very old vid?

again, im NOT saying if you dont ride GP you cant comment, but perhaps accept that if you have never trained a horse to that level, you cannot possibly understand the complication, the difficulties, the sheet mind boggling balancing act it can be. Perhaps be a little more accepting of what you dont know?


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			perhaps accept that if you have never trained a horse to that level, you cannot possibly understand the complication, the difficulties, the sheet mind boggling balancing act it can be. Perhaps be a little more accepting of what you dont know?
		
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Is this not the same argument that was put forward for beating racehorses to the finish line?

You write as if it is not optional to compete to win at Grand Prix., that somehow anything is justified if it gets results. I don't subscribe to that view.


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## chestnut cob (22 October 2013)

fburton said:



			No worries!  Feelings tend to run high when debating a subject like this, and I'm not immune from becoming a little heated myself.
		
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I find it fascinating.  I used to be very anti-RK and quite aggressively so.  I've changed my views quite a bit in the last year or so and am a lot more open to discussing it, so I enjoy these threads.  I don't believe there it is black and white.  I've had lots of conversations with my horse's physio about it and it raises questions... she says that in the main, the horses she sees with KS are mid-level competition horses.  Not many at low levels, and not happy hackers (though that in itself raises questions.. why not?  Is it because the owners don't pick up small niggles and signs in their horses?  Is it because the horses aren't physically pushed?).  She's also treated some v high level DR horses and doesn't see issues with those horses, and they are the ones most likely to be worked most often in hyperflexion.  So why not?  Is it because the riders at those levels are very tactful in their use of HF?  Is it that those horses in the mid-levels are ridden by people who maybe don't have enough understanding but are trying to copy something they see at top level, but not doing it properly?  

I don't know the answer to these questions, but do think they are all things that bear considering.  I also think the argument about sharp competition horses is a valid one.


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## applecart14 (22 October 2013)

Disgusting and shameful


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## Goldenstar (22 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Which also does not prove that if you had treated him a different way he would not have had just as good a result.  I agree, one horse means nothing. Some proper research instead of insisting on box rest and restrictive lunging would be good to see for KS horses.
		
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The exact same thing can be said for your horse.
You did one thing CC did another both had a good result not sure it proves anything except what all horse people know many roads lead to Rome.


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

All the thirteen horses done by the surgeon who did mine were happy hackers or not much more.

I can't see anything in rollkur that would cause KS, personally. I can see that the modern trend for breeding shorter backed horses will do it though.

My vets tell me they see it at three stages. First when the horse is backed, then in horses of about eight that are working seriously and hit a problem, lastly at horses of around twelve, where work has caused arthritis. changes over time.


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			The exact same thing can be said for your horse.
You did one thing CC did another both had a good result not sure it proves anything except what all horse people know many roads lead to Rome.
		
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Which bit of ' I agree one horse means nothing ' did you miss GS??


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## kc100 (22 October 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Kc100- so you dont think Ed Gal ever puts Glocks Undercover very very deep to gain control of that hot headed powerhouse..........................thats no critisism of him but its interesting that Adelinde is a villain for riding deep and having a short tense horse but EG is not? Undercover is insanely tense at time, but somehow thats more acceptable? This is in NO WAY a critisism of either of them and there have been more pics of Adelinde that have made even me go "hmmmmmm" but i would bet there are just as many not so pretty pics of Undercover looking rather tense and strong and ditto Mistral Hojiris, a notoriously strong horse who in the early days needed a lot of obvious flexing and BIG half halts to keep him under control. I think the shortening of the neck makes Undercover and Parcival appear worse than a horse which pulls but keeps its neck out, neither is any more correct but the latter more easily covered up.
		
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I was mainly talking about Edward Gal with Totillas (I know it can be argued he might have used Rollkur with him but there are not many pics of it happening apart from in halt so lets for the sake of argument with a lack of evidence say he didnt) - Glocks Undercover still has a lot of work to do, he's a long way off the finished article and it would be unfair to talk about Edward with this horse as I've not seen him often enough with Undercover to comment. The reason why I'd be happy to pay to see Edward at a convention would be for his sheer amount of experience and for his experience with Totillas, he was widely argued as the best dressage horse in the world for a very long time so to me he would be an interesting person to hear speak. 

Not saying Adelinde would not be interesting, I'm sure there would be something to learn from any top GP rider but personally someone who only switches their methods when they are not winning is not going to be top of my list for someone I want to pay to see speak. But hey, this is just my opinion and who am I at the end of the day - just a huge dressage fan who wants to learn more at ever opportunity but only ever in a way that is kind to the horse. 

I actually think I'd rather pay to see you and your sister with your lovely boys to be honest , you have achieved so much with 2 ex racers which is fascinating, compared to someone who has been bought a flashy WB and uses/used questionable methods like rollkur.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Is this not the same argument that was put forward for beating racehorses to the finish line?

You write as if it is not optional to compete to win at Grand Prix., that somehow anything is justified if it gets results. I don't subscribe to that view.
		
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i think you are deliberately misunderstanding me and also not engaging your brain-no one spends that amount of money or time to compete internationally and NOT try to do the very best they can. In wanting to do their best there will probably be moments that are not pretty to watch, and times the rider appears to go down the *wrong* path before changing their ideals/ideas/route. This is their life, their career and they set out to win, as does anyone else whose sport is thier career.........because this particular sport also involves another living creature it is far more open to critisism.
Those that are more opne minded and able to weight up the good and the bad and take in to account their own lesser knowledge will get more out of it and be able to discuss ina more balanced way.....a point blank "no/wrong" always leads me to wonder exactly how much the writer really understands about the sport.

as far as racing goes, i believe the way/amount a racehorse can be hit is quite strictly controlled, the equivilant of the blood rule in dressage and judges/stewards alike are very hot on enforcing it so not sure what your point is?



chestnut cob said:



			I find it fascinating.  I used to be very anti-RK and quite aggressively so.  I've changed my views quite a bit in the last year or so and am a lot more open to discussing it, so I enjoy these threads.  I don't believe there it is black and white.  I've had lots of conversations with my horse's physio about it and it raises questions... she says that in the main, the horses she sees with KS are mid-level competition horses.  Not many at low levels, and not happy hackers (though that in itself raises questions.. why not?  Is it because the owners don't pick up small niggles and signs in their horses?  Is it because the horses aren't physically pushed?).  She's also treated some v high level DR horses and doesn't see issues with those horses, and they are the ones most likely to be worked most often in hyperflexion.  So why not?  Is it because the riders at those levels are very tactful in their use of HF?  Is it that those horses in the mid-levels are ridden by people who maybe don't have enough understanding but are trying to copy something they see at top level, but not doing it properly?  

I don't know the answer to these questions, but do think they are all things that bear considering.  I also think the argument about sharp competition horses is a valid one.
		
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the quote about mid V high level horses is where my mind tends to fall on the KS debate-its not a HF problem per se, but a problem of HF in the wrong hads, or just in plain bad hands!


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

My point, Princess, is that excessive whipping of racehorses was banned because PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER RACED IN THEIR LIVES OR EVEN RIDDEN A HORSE said it was wrong.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 October 2013)

kc100 said:



			I was mainly talking about Edward Gal with Totillas (I know it can be argued he might have used Rollkur with him but there are not many pics of it happening apart from in halt so lets for the sake of argument with a lack of evidence say he didnt) - Glocks Undercover still has a lot of work to do, he's a long way off the finished article and it would be unfair to talk about Edward with this horse as I've not seen him often enough with Undercover to comment. The reason why I'd be happy to pay to see Edward at a convention would be for his sheer amount of experience and for his experience with Totillas, he was widely argued as the best dressage horse in the world for a very long time so to me he would be an interesting person to hear speak. 

Not saying Adelinde would not be interesting, I'm sure there would be something to learn from any top GP rider but personally someone who only switches their methods when they are not winning is not going to be top of my list for someone I want to pay to see speak. But hey, this is just my opinion and who am I at the end of the day - just a huge dressage fan who wants to learn more at ever opportunity but only ever in a way that is kind to the horse. 

I actually think I'd rather pay to see you and your sister with your lovely boys to be honest , you have achieved so much with 2 ex racers which is fascinating, compared to someone who has been bought a flashy WB and uses/used questionable methods like rollkur.
		
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thats very kind, thank you  im a dreadful public speaker though, dont think BD would be impressed lol!

its potentially a bit naive to say EG didnt or doesnt work his horses very deep when the horses put its self in the rollkur position under saddle of its own accord. I dont have too much of an issue with it as there was/is so much else positive about his training but i *think* (cant say for sure), if you watched Adelinde work 20 horses over a week and EG work 20 horses over a week you would have an equal number of pros and cons for each. Ive seen EG keep a horse in passage for a very long period of time and mentally winced as i think thats just as likely to cause injury or distress, but i remain open mined to the rest of his training ethos, i guess im asking people tro try and do the same for Adelinde.


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## Goldenstar (22 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Which bit of ' I agree one horse means nothing ' did you miss GS??
		
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I am agreeing with you no need to be aggressive .


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## doriangrey (22 October 2013)

Would someone please explain to me (a non dressage rider) what hyperflexion/rolkur is supposed to achieve?  According to the video I posted earlier it has little to no effect on the vertical movement of the spine with most vertical flexion coming from the lumbar/sacral joint, important for collection.  Genuine question.


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## EmmaB (22 October 2013)

After Carl and his gang won basically everything at the Olympics, I think dressage riders are becoming receptive to the fact that his way of training (not using Rolkur) is the way to go if you want to win. Recently I think (from my limited view of the dressage world) that a lot of the top horses look a lot more relaxed and are going more correctly. 

So while that picture looks awful and I don't agree with what she did at ALL, if she is now trying to train her horses in a better way then good for her. At the top of their sport it must be so hard not to get sucked into using bad methods, the pressure must be seriously intense to do well. Thats not an excuse, but I think we can see that dressage training is changing for the better (I think so anyway from what I've seen), so if she has learnt from her mistakes and is now working her horses better then thats got to be a good thing. 

You see horrible things go on in all aspects of horse sports, showjumpers/showing people/dressagers can all use horrible tequniches to achieve results but while it DOES achieve them good results they will carry on doing it! If they stop winning and people with better methods win (i.e Carl, Charlotte) then everyone will follow suit!


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## RunToEarth (22 October 2013)

I don't think you need to be a relative expert or up at that level with AC to identify that the use of RK/HF isn't particularly savoury to be polite - I'm not an expert in child nutrition but I understand the fundamental dangers associated with starving them. 

I also think it is particularly unpleasant of posters in here to imply that their opinions are more valid and more relevant because of their level of training, it comes across as really distasteful.


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			I am agreeing with you no need to be aggressive .
		
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I apologise. It did not read like agreement to me, sorry.


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

doriangrey said:



			Would someone please explain to me (a non dressage rider) what hyperflexion/rolkur is supposed to achieve?  According to the video I posted earlier it has little to no effect on the vertical movement of the spine with most vertical flexion coming from the lumbar/sacral joint, important for collection.  Genuine question.
		
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The only answer I've seen that makes sense to me, having ridden a couple of them, is that it gives you an effective way of controlling boisterous and big moving warmbloods.

If used for a longer time, say on the lunge as I have seen a top level British trainer do to a horse of my friend's, it also makes the ligament along the top of the neck bigger, that elusive 'top line'.

She stopped doing it and the mare she bought from them lost her very strong neck top line and they told her to do more of it with tighter side reins.

To make it worse, this was their warm-up, before the horse was ridden, and the tight side reins went on at the very start.


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## chestnut cob (22 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Which also does not prove that if you had treated him a different way he would not have had just as good a result.  I agree, one horse means nothing. Some proper research instead of insisting on box rest and restrictive lunging would be good to see for KS horses.
		
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It isn't research on lungeing in "gadgets" but the BEVA DVD I have contains a section which discusses this.  They say that they did XR and I think MRI on all horses in their study.  Each one showed significant improvement in spacing between their DSPs (I'd need to go back and watch again to give you the exact wording) after 10 weeks on the stretching programme.  That programme consists of some v deep, round bending of the horses.  I know that isn't the same as working a horse in RK for long periods daily, and RK is in movement rather than standing still, but the principle of the muscles they are trying to work is the same.


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## MadJ (22 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			If used for a longer time, say on the lunge as I have seen a top level British trainer do to a horse of my friend's, it also makes the ligament along the top of the neck bigger, that elusive 'top line'.

She stopped doing it and the mare she bought from them lost her very strong neck top line and they told her to do more of it with tighter side reins.

To make it worse, this was their warm-up, before the horse was ridden, and the tight side reins went on at the very start.
		
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I wonder if this trainer came from the same camp as the one who used to train the person I worked for. Although the one I saw used to use 2 sets of sides reins so the head was really "set".


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## Goldenstar (22 October 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			thats very kind, thank you  im a dreadful public speaker though, dont think BD would be impressed lol!

its potentially a bit naive to say EG didnt or doesnt work his horses very deep when the horses put its self in the rollkur position under saddle of its own accord. I dont have too much of an issue with it as there was/is so much else positive about his training but i *think* (cant say for sure), if you watched Adelinde work 20 horses over a week and EG work 20 horses over a week you would have an equal number of pros and cons for each. Ive seen EG keep a horse in passage for a very long period of time and mentally winced as i think thats just as likely to cause injury or distress, but i remain open mined to the rest of his training ethos, i guess im asking people tro try and do the same for Adelinde.
		
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I am sure EG works his horses deep in fact there's plenty of training footage out on the internet of him doing it .
I don't know but I am sure CH will work deep at times as well .
The rollkur debate is now so mixed up and I don't the vast majority of people think that all putting of the horse deep or very deep and round is wrong but Where that stops and unacceptable methods start is not so easy to judge .
IME the whip it is a 'tool ' that can be misused and so is LDR but it can also help the horse its a question of degree and intent .
By intent I mean that LDR could be used as punishment and that's not acceptable to me .
I am trying to open minded about AC I hate the way she sits agaisnt her horse I hate the over tight nosebands padded with things ( although the new rules now stop this in public ) I have never admired the way Parsizal goes there are horses that thrill me more Damon Hill for instance .
And the story of her journey with this horse is a special one .
But if I was doing more than I am now I would go and watch her with interest and concentration  and I would learn things .


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## doriangrey (22 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			The only answer I've seen that makes sense to me, having ridden a couple of them, is that it gives you an effective way of controlling boisterous and big moving warmbloods.

If used for a longer time, say on the lunge as I have seen a top level British trainer do to a horse of my friend's, it also makes the ligament along the top of the neck bigger, that elusive 'top line'.

She stopped doing it and the mare she bought from them lost her very strong neck top line and they told her to do more of it with tighter side reins.
		
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Does it produce a more relaxed test I wonder due to the release of the pressure?  I sometimes wonder how the temperament of a horse is compromised due to harsh training methods. I mean if a top dressage horse can be hacked out by an 80 year old why would a dressage test make him more difficult, anticipation?  I think rather than being temperamental and hot they have incredibly generous temperaments - but that's just me musing  I've been following Ace's progress btw, he really is the most gorgeous horse, I hope he continues to improve


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## cambrica (22 October 2013)

Anybody, regardless as to who they are, if in the public limelight should realise the obligation they have in setting the right example to the people that aspire to them. 
Rollkur is cruel, as is soring and the Big Lick, as is gingering up of certain show horses. I am not in anyway experienced in dressage, neither do I know much about walking horses but my experience with horses tells me that this is WRONG. If I were young and naive and inexperienced I may feel the need to emulate rollkur because that is what the 'professionals' do so it must be ok. How many times have we seen horses advertised for sale or in photo's where their heads are pulled into their chests because the owners think it looks pretty! 
Hopefully Adelinde C will read this thread and openly admit the error of her ways.


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## Goldenstar (22 October 2013)

You can't IMO compare soring with rollkur, the horse is in rollkur postion and then it's out of it , soring is completely different it's on another level altogether .


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## amandap (22 October 2013)

doriangrey said:



			Does it produce a more relaxed test I wonder due to the release of the pressure?  I sometimes wonder how the temperament of a horse is compromised due to harsh training methods. I mean if a top dressage horse can be hacked out by an 80 year old why would a dressage test make him more difficult, anticipation?  I think rather than being temperamental and hot they have incredibly generous temperaments - but that's just me musing  I've been following Ace's progress btw, he really is the most gorgeous horse, I hope he continues to improve 

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I have just been pondering about the old/young riders who can hack some of these dressage horses but put the horse in the area/school and things change. The horse must be associating the area with something powerful to overcome basic plod mode when in an area familiar to them. Perhaps this is part of the reason these horses are difficult to ride in work? Just musing.

As has been pointed out it's a very complex picture that includes much more than purely riding style. Riding style could be a factor in negative or positive  association though of course.


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

doriangrey said:



			Does it produce a more relaxed test I wonder due to the release of the pressure?  I sometimes wonder how the temperament of a horse is compromised due to harsh training methods. I mean if a top dressage horse can be hacked out by an 80 year old why would a dressage test make him more difficult, anticipation?  I think rather than being temperamental and hot they have incredibly generous temperaments - but that's just me musing  I've been following Ace's progress btw, he really is the most gorgeous horse, I hope he continues to improve 

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Just done today's fantastic update   He is a lovely boy, I am so lucky to ride a horse of his quality even if my riding will never do him justice 

I think there may be some mileage in the 'release from pressure' theory. 

Regarding behaviour at a competition, I've known many horses that would work to a far higher standard at home than they would in a competition environment.  I know a lot of that was me transmitting my tension at being judged to them. Something at which I am truly International in class .  But some of it comes from the pressure put on the horse to perform exactly to the markers, for example, when at home you'd be likely to wait a stride more for a better balance. For horses like mine that live a quiet isolated existence day to day, a competition environment is also very defocussing.

These top horses lead very structured lives at home, it must be just as much of a shock to them.


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## Dizzy socks (22 October 2013)

Personally, I don't like watching Parzival, although he is not the only top dressage/GP horse. I just think he looks unhappy, (But what would I know- Never having competed anywhere near GP? ) all I see is a horse, that looks uncomfortable. Valegro looks happy, and a joy to ride, - good on CD and CH.

R.E the comment that a study showed that a rolkur-ish movement could improve the horse physically, I wonder at what cost? Mental discomfort? Pain? I think we should just be happy we have a decent horse- not try to improve the bone structure.

I have read the whole of this thread, and thought I would add my tuppence worth!


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## chestnut cob (22 October 2013)

Dizzy socks said:



			R.E the comment that a study showed that a rolkur-ish movement could improve the horse physically, I wonder at what cost? Mental discomfort? Pain? I think we should just be happy we have a decent horse- not try to improve the bone structure.
		
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Put another slant on it... if a horse works in hyperflexion for a short period of time and it really does stretch them out, encourage them to lift the back and round, then isn't it worth it in the long term (just a question, not me saying let's work everything in RK)?  The point about having a decent horse - why wouldn't you want to improve on what you have?  If you can improve on it then doesn't that make it easier for the horse to stay sound, and for him to perform the job?  Isn't dressage all about improving a horse to make him more athletic, supple and gymnastic, so he is better able to work?

I've seen vids of CH working horses in demos pretty deep/ LDR, yet for some reason on here people seem to think he is a paragon of virtue whose horses work in a competition outline all of the time.  There are interviews where he talks about his horses hacking regularly, but I can't imagine they all hack on the buckle end, bimbling along and taking in the view.  I've seen a vid of him riding Valegro in a demo where he shows him being ridden LDR and doing lateral work, to stretch out his entire body.  But for some reason, when CH talks about it, it is OK yet when other riders do, they are cruel and evil...


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## doriangrey (22 October 2013)

chestnut cob said:



			Put another slant on it... if a horse works in hyperflexion for a short period of time and it really does stretch them out, encourage them to lift the back and round, then isn't it worth it in the long term (just a question, not me saying let's work everything in RK)?  The point about having a decent horse - why wouldn't you want to improve on what you have?  If you can improve on it then doesn't that make it easier for the horse to stay sound, and for him to perform the job?  Isn't dressage all about improving a horse to make him more athletic, supple and gymnastic, so he is better able to work?

I've seen vids of CH working horses in demos pretty deep/ LDR, yet for some reason on here people seem to think he is a paragon of virtue whose horses work in a competition outline all of the time.  There are interviews where he talks about his horses hacking regularly, but I can't imagine they all hack on the buckle end, bimbling along and taking in the view.  I've seen a vid of him riding Valegro in a demo where he shows him being ridden LDR and doing lateral work, to stretch out his entire body.  But for some reason, when CH talks about it, it is OK yet when other riders do, they are cruel and evil...
		
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Well, I haven't called anyone cruel and evil  but according to  the biomechanics of the horse LDR doesn't encourage lifting of the spine.  It's very rigid vertically (I think it has a flexibility of no more than 2.5 inches) and most of the movement is propelled from the sacro/hind quarters.  I don't know how the back muscles would be affected, however.


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## Dizzy socks (22 October 2013)

chestnut cob said:



			Put another slant on it... if a horse works in hyperflexion for a short period of time and it really does stretch them out, encourage them to lift the back and round, then isn't it worth it in the long term (just a question, not me saying let's work everything in RK)?  The point about having a decent horse - why wouldn't you want to improve on what you have?  If you can improve on it then doesn't that make it easier for the horse to stay sound, and for him to perform the job?  Isn't dressage all about improving a horse to make him more athletic, supple and gymnastic, so he is better able to work?

I've seen vids of CH working horses in demos pretty deep/ LDR, yet for some reason on here people seem to think he is a paragon of virtue whose horses work in a competition outline all of the time.  There are interviews where he talks about his horses hacking regularly, but I can't imagine they all hack on the buckle end, bimbling along and taking in the view.  I've seen a vid of him riding Valegro in a demo where he shows him being ridden LDR and doing lateral work, to stretch out his entire body.  But for some reason, when CH talks about it, it is OK yet when other riders do, they are cruel and evil...
		
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Well, I guess I just don't think it acceptable to try and improve your horse at the sacrifice of it's well being. I doubt the horse knows why it's head is being jammed into it's chest- it just wants t be released. 
Tbh, I doubt the horse cares about how round it's back is, these are all characteristics introduced by people, to make the horse more amenable to the tasks we set them. Also the fact that people always strive for perfection, they will want there horse to go on improving. Give them an idea that works, and it will continue to be used until it has no more success - or forever, if results are improving.


Just reread that, and makes very little sense, but hey ho! 

There is a definable difference between LDR and Rolkur. CH is not a saint, just far better then the norm.


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## amandap (22 October 2013)

chestnut cob said:



			Put another slant on it... if a horse works in hyperflexion for a short period of time and it really does stretch them out, encourage them to lift the back and round, then isn't it worth it in the long term (just a question, not me saying let's work everything in RK)?
		
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Too many ifs and unknowns in RK for me to say it's worth it. There are (apparently lol) other ways to teach and bring on a horse to use and strengthen it's spine and body enough to first carry a human and eventually obtain the level of collection and impulsion required in dressage and at GP level.
There is also the element of control of the horse which is often cited in the use of RK. Control through force as opposed to calm, relaxed obedience through sensitive training is a disussion that runs through all equestrianism from me to the GP riders and trainers.

ps. Force = tension and resistance in my book.


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## cundlegreen (22 October 2013)

I've read the whole thread as well, and will throw in my pennies worth. Being a lot older than most of you (I'm sure), I have always been a fan of Reiner Klimke. So here is the link to him on his victory lap after winning gold....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbLXpW5-DG0 A different era, but how often now would you see a horse ridden and going as softly as this one? This (to me) is how dressage should be ridden. Complete understanding and harmony between horse and rider, without any tension, and just think what the atmosphere must have been like at that stadium!


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## fburton (22 October 2013)

cundlegreen said:



			I've read the whole thread as well, and will throw in my pennies worth. Being a lot older than most of you (I'm sure), I have always been a fan of Reiner Klimke. So here is the link to him on his victory lap after winning gold....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbLXpW5-DG0 A different era, but how often now would you see a horse ridden and going as softly as this one? This (to me) is how dressage should be ridden. Complete understanding and harmony between horse and rider, without any tension, and just think what the atmosphere must have been like at that stadium!
		
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I'd be interested to know if today he would score as highly as he did then.


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## LCH611 (22 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Ps by 'encourage' they mean 'force' of course. Nice way to treat a horse with a sore back and likely to add a sore neck to his rehab, I would think 

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But sometimes when you have surgery as part of the rehab you have to push yourself and force a joint (for example) to be used when all you really want to do is protect it. I was told very bluntly by my physio that I needed to man up and not let post-surgery adhesions cause me a limited range of movement for the rest of my life. I was worried when I slipped and stretched things further than I thought I ought to, but she applauded and said that was just what was needed. Consequently I can definitely see why vets & equine physios might recommend it, because I can't imagine that a horse would feel instinctively motivated to work through the pain barrier


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## cundlegreen (22 October 2013)

fburton said:



			I'd be interested to know if today he would score as highly as he did then.
		
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Of course he wouldn't. Its a lot about flashy movement now. I think in those days when you could compete top level as an amateur as RK did, it was about correct training and lightness. My point is, how many horses nowadays could do that many changes with the rider using one hand??


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## chestnut cob (22 October 2013)

Dizzy socks said:



			Well, I guess I just don't think it acceptable to try and improve your horse at the sacrifice of it's well being. I doubt the horse knows why it's head is being jammed into it's chest- it just wants t be released.
		
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But... if you are trying to improve the horse then surely you *are*, by default, also improving his well being?  In the same way that improving your own body by fitness, yoga, whatever, makes you feel better.  




			Tbh, I doubt the horse cares about how round it's back is, these are all characteristics introduced by people, to make the horse more amenable to the tasks we set them. Also the fact that people always strive for perfection, they will want there horse to go on improving.
		
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But horses ARE working animals.  They do a job.  It isn't natural for them to be ridden so surely we owe it to them (and their well being) to ensure they are strong enough and fit enough to carry us, and perform?  Fitness work and stretching is surely needed in order to make sure the horse can do his job without causing strain and stress?  If you don't work the horse properly then all you will end up with is a horse with a dipped back and insufficient muscle to do his job without pain, and that in itself brings a whole host of other problems.  Dressage should be about suppling and strengthening the horse so he can better carry you and do his job properly.  IMHO not working him correctly is doing him a disservice because he is then unprepared for ridden work.  Surely you want to give the horse the best chance of carrying you and staying sound?  Think about how uncomfortable bad posture makes you in your own body.  You need to make sure the horse can carry himself properly, has the right muscles and can do his job.  Of course these exercises were created to make the horse more amenable to work - that will always be the case unless you believe horses should just roam free and never be ridden.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 October 2013)

cundlegreen said:



			Of course he wouldn't. Its a lot about flashy movement now. I think in those days when you could compete top level as an amateur as RK did, it was about correct training and lightness. My point is, how many horses nowadays could do that many changes with the rider using one hand??
		
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he wouldnt score as highly because at points he is hollow and not engaged (having watched a few full tests online).
I think plenty of horses would do a long string of ones,one handed,any of the top 5 at the Olympics or Euros, or Totilas (under EG)


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

LCH611 said:



			But sometimes when you have surgery as part of the rehab you have to push yourself and force a joint (for example) to be used when all you really want to do is protect it. I was told very bluntly by my physio that I needed to man up and not let post-surgery adhesions cause me a limited range of movement for the rest of my life. I was worried when I slipped and stretched things further than I thought I ought to, but she applauded and said that was just what was needed. Consequently I can definitely see why vets & equine physios might recommend it, because I can't imagine that a horse would feel instinctively motivated to work through the pain barrier
		
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It's an interesting point but with specific reference to interspinous ligament resection treatment for kissing spines I'm at a complete loss to understand why you would want to force the horse to open the processes using short side reins on the lunge for 20 minutes, and keep it on box/very small paddock rest, instead of letting the horse do it naturally by grazing and moving about in a field 24/7. 

On my horse with a knee ligament kick injury, I was happy to force him to flex it more than he wanted to. On my kissing spines horse I thought there were better ways to achieve the back mobility we wanted.

 Its not relevant to this discussion at all but I'd be happy to continue the conversation on my thread in Veterinary or on my blog.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			It's an interesting point but with specific reference to interspinous ligament resection treatment for kissing spines I'm at a complete loss to understand why you would want to force the horse to open the processes using short side reins on the lunge for 20 minutes, and keep it on box/very small paddock rest, instead of letting the horse do it naturally by grazing and moving about in a field 24/7. 

On my horse with a knee ligament kick injury, I was happy to force him to flex it more than he wanted to. On my kissing spines horse I thought there were better ways to achieve the back mobility we wanted.

 Its not relevant to this discussion at all but I'd be happy to continue the conversation on my thread in Veterinary or on my blog.
		
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grazing and working in side reins cannot be compared as ways to build/strengthen the topline/ligaments/back. If leaving them out to graze 24/7 build up strength in the back then training up the levels would be a damn site easier and would take out the need for all the basic strengtheing and suppling work!
Grazing will stretch things to a certain degree but not in the same ways as working in a deep frame would, otherwise we wouldnt see these horses being worked deep, they would just be out in the paddock eating their head off!

independant research has its place but i dont think id be going so against the grain with something so career/life threatening as KS.


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

Princess the question was specific to opening up the dorsal spinous processes, not to generally strengthening the back. The initial opening is obtained primarily by relaxation of spasmed muscles, not by strengthening them. And the major effect of the operation is believed to be produced by denerving, which requires no change in the muscles or ligaments to be effective. Except for the skin, nothing is cut that we want to rejoin.

I turned my horse out on hills as soon as the staples were out, and I never lunged him in a pessoa or side reins. And my vets agree that his progress is amazing.  I never was any good at following orders I could see no sense in


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## nikkimariet (22 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			The initial opening is obtained primarily by relaxation of spasmed muscles, not by strengthening them.
		
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Sorry C..., what?!

I suffer muscle spasms in my back. On several medical professionals advice, I am to undertake low intensity exercise - with the focus being stretching and suppling my back. Ultimately to strengthen my back muscles, in order to help try and prevent future recurrences, and lessen the severity of any that do occur and subsequent damage.

Chicken and egg. You don't get the softness/relaxation without the strength, and you don't get the strength without the softness/relaxation.

I don't quite get what your point is!


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## Nitro mouse (22 October 2013)

Hi just wanted to add my bit, 15 years ago I purchased a horse that had been trained in this manner way before it had become a source of public debate. He was six, he had been ridden in draw reins and lunged a lot in tight side reins. He thought nose touching chest was what rider wanted once any contact was taken. It has taken me YEARS to get over this. Even now if someone new rides him and takes up a strong contact old habits kick in and wham in goes the nose. It saddens me, he loathes school work but seems to enjoy being ridden. He was an angry miserable, bitey kicky grump, but over time he has learnt to relax stretch and lengthen his stride and is a very  happy chilled boy now. When I first got him he was horribly upright and stiff in his movement. It took about 18 months of just hacking for him to cotton on how to walk, trot etc stretch and lengthen.
 I haven't paid much attention to what is going on in the dressage world for a long time. I don't like the training methods of some of the top riders and yes i have seen a few of them at work. Carl Hester I think is an exception btw.
Going to the Paralympics  dressage was a breath of fresh air. As a lot of the riders are unable to "haul em in" . 
yes I know highly trained competition horses can be hot to handle, but interestingly a horse can still tank off with its nose on its chest apparently.....so rolkur as a method of control is not entirely accurate. ( I know this cos mine has done it). Also it makes em damn difficult to stop too. Sigh, 
Debates like this are healthy and a good thing, everyone should be held accountable of their methods and actions, especially those in the public eye, because ultimately they do influence what the rest of us do. Constantly looking at how our horses are trained and aways questioning and reassessing those methods can only ultimately benefit the horse.


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

nikkimariet said:



			Sorry C..., what?!

I suffer muscle spasms in my back. On several medical professionals advice, I am to undertake low intensity exercise - with the focus being stretching and suppling my back. Ultimately to strengthen my back muscles, in order to help try and prevent future recurrences, and lessen the severity of any that do occur and subsequent damage.

Chicken and egg. You don't get the softness/relaxation without the strength, and you don't get the strength without the softness/relaxation.

I don't quite get what your point is!
		
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The point is that your back does not have spinal processes anything like a horse. And that a horse with painful kissing spines can frequently be resolved by getting the muscles to relax, because it is the spasm in the back muscles that causes the closing of the gaps and the knocking together of the processes that causes the pain. This does not require additional strength at this point.

With a horse with KS it's a vicious circle. Pain causes the back to spasm. That causes the gaps between the processes to close up further, which creates even more pain, and on it goes.

Therefore, removal of the spasm is often enough to allow the owner to then work the horse to keep the spaces open, which is why not every horse with KS has to be operated on, and injections alone are enough for some of them. My own horse's spines were so exceptionally close that operating was the only option.   

He happily dealt with a field on a one in five slope from day twelve. He did not need additional strength in his back, he needed the pain removed so that he stopped using his muscle strength against himself.

And guess what, with no lunging in a pessoa, never mind in rollkur, he has, all by himself, built up a load of additional back muscle which is making him able, a week after starting being ridden, to easily carry me up a one in five hill too.

He has been deliberately bred short backed to do high level dressage. I've had two like this now and the other was cold backed in a British winter too. I do think we need to start questioning whether the current intentional breeding of close coupled horses is likely to become a welfare issue in the future, if it is not already.


I hope this helps clarify what I meant NM, if not please feel free to ask more questions, since I'm right in the middle of a KS rehab I'm obviously full of useless information about it at the moment 





PS regarding the advice you are following, if translated to a horse, I would not myself call lunging in rollkur 'low intensity'  , but I would describe turnout on hills that way.


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## cundlegreen (22 October 2013)

Nitro mouse said:



			Hi just wanted to add my bit, 15 years ago I purchased a horse that had been trained in this manner way before it had become a source of public debate. He was six, he had been ridden in draw reins and lunged a lot in tight side reins. He thought nose touching chest was what rider wanted once any contact was taken. It has taken me YEARS to get over this. Even now if someone new rides him and takes up a strong contact old habits kick in and wham in goes the nose. It saddens me, he loathes school work but seems to enjoy being ridden. He was an angry miserable, bitey kicky grump, but over time he has learnt to relax stretch and lengthen his stride and is a very  happy chilled boy now. When I first got him he was horribly upright and stiff in his movement. It took about 18 months of just hacking for him to cotton on how to walk, trot etc stretch and lengthen.
 I haven't paid much attention to what is going on in the dressage world for a long time. I don't like the training methods of some of the top riders and yes i have seen a few of them at work. Carl Hester I think is an exception btw.
Going to the Paralympics  dressage was a breath of fresh air. As a lot of the riders are unable to "haul em in" . 
yes I know highly trained competition horses can be hot to handle, but interestingly a horse can still tank off with its nose on its chest apparently.....so rolkur as a method of control is not entirely accurate. ( I know this cos mine has done it). Also it makes em damn difficult to stop too. Sigh, 
Debates like this are healthy and a good thing, everyone should be held accountable of their methods and actions, especially those in the public eye, because ultimately they do influence what the rest of us do. Constantly looking at how our horses are trained and aways questioning and reassessing those methods can only ultimately benefit the horse.
		
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Excellent post. 
Re the tanking off with head in chest, I have seen this happen in the driving world, and a nasty accident happen as a result. The young horse had always been driven with a very tight rein. On this occasion, the reins got wet, slipped through the drivers hands, and a full scale bolt happened, smashing the carriage up.


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## amandap (22 October 2013)

If anyone is interested I found more on the study, I linked earlier, from the ISES site. http://www.equitationscience.com/do...sensus workshop/UtaVonBorstel_Rollkur2009.pdf


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## cptrayes (22 October 2013)

Thanks, off to read that A.


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## Tnavas (22 October 2013)

cundlegreen said:



			I've read the whole thread as well, and will throw in my pennies worth. Being a lot older than most of you (I'm sure), I have always been a fan of Reiner Klimke. So here is the link to him on his victory lap after winning gold....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbLXpW5-DG0 A different era, but how often now would you see a horse ridden and going as softly as this one? This (to me) is how dressage should be ridden. Complete understanding and harmony between horse and rider, without any tension, and just think what the atmosphere must have been like at that stadium!
		
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Beautiful!


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## Blurr (23 October 2013)

cundlegreen said:



			I've read the whole thread as well, and will throw in my pennies worth. Being a lot older than most of you (I'm sure), I have always been a fan of Reiner Klimke. So here is the link to him on his victory lap after winning gold....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbLXpW5-DG0 A different era, but how often now would you see a horse ridden and going as softly as this one? This (to me) is how dressage should be ridden. Complete understanding and harmony between horse and rider, without any tension, and just think what the atmosphere must have been like at that stadium!
		
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Beautiful video, a joy to watch, all those effortless changes, the lightness in the collected work and then that extended trot without bracing or leaning back.  And all just showing off!  Thanks for posting.


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## fburton (23 October 2013)

One would hope that the well-being of the horse was compatible with changing fashions. Am I right to sense a bit of tension there?


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## Marydoll (23 October 2013)

Reiner Klimke was a master, its a joy to watch a horse ridden so lightly and to be so responsive. The likes of Adelinde and a few other Grand Prix riders would never be allowed to park their butt on any of my horses because of the way they ride.


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## weebarney (23 October 2013)

For me dressage should be gentle on the eye. I take no enjoyment in watching these uptight stuffy looking horses with bits (muscles/ ligaments/ whatever?) bulging out of them that look like they should be in a circus doing tricks.


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## cornbrodolly (23 October 2013)

We went to 'The Horse Event' in the Netherlands last year[ a large show of equestrain demos/displays etc]-it was held quite soon after the Olympics. Adelinde was a guest 'turn'. Even not speaking any Dutch, we could tell the outrage from the commentators and the audience that she had been beaten in the Olympics . She gave us the keep fit demo - very unimpressive I m afraid,unless you like juggling and balancing on a gym ball.
 Various demos at that Horse Event concentrated on 'Harmonie' , which we took to be a softer way of doing dressage . In a long winded way what I m saying is that she will have had to rethink her training methods , because dressage is now much more about a happier and less tense horse. Rollkur ,one would hope, is being consigned to the dustbin, as todays dressage tests are marked in a way that encourages and rewards correct training.
 This more balletic and fluid dressage work could be seen at the dressage convention at Bury Farm this past weekend. To watch Valegro work was pure joy - a willing horse , enjoying his work - and he is hacked daily, in paddock daily and school worked 4 time s a week max. Carls methods are humane - and he gets the results too - so why B D even asked Adelinde is a mystery. Bury Farm was a sell out [ though not without a few things that need refining /changing in future years] but I doubt B D convention will be as good.


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## PolarSkye (23 October 2013)

cundlegreen said:



			I've read the whole thread as well, and will throw in my pennies worth. Being a lot older than most of you (I'm sure), I have always been a fan of Reiner Klimke. So here is the link to him on his victory lap after winning gold....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbLXpW5-DG0 A different era, but how often now would you see a horse ridden and going as softly as this one? This (to me) is how dressage should be ridden. Complete understanding and harmony between horse and rider, without any tension, and just think what the atmosphere must have been like at that stadium!
		
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Wow . . . what a pleasure to watch .

P


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## KPM (24 October 2013)

A few points from me:

Have any of you that seem intent to hang, draw and quarter Adelinde ever actually watched her ride? I don't mean a biased you tube video, i mean a *recent* warm up at a show for example?  Or have any of you been to her last masterclasses she did? I have.  She is an exceptional speaker - warm, funny and knowledgeable.  IMO its fine to not like her methods (hell, their are some so called top trainers I wouldn't hesitate to use a barge pole to keep them away from me and mine), but do it with full awareness and research if you are going to spout so venomously, not just some 2minute videos.  A friend of mine has just had a lesson with her and raved about it.

Secondly, with regards to the rollkur positioning.  At the Bury Farm convention on Saturday one of the guinea pig horses kept popping its head onto its chest...now it wasn't held there, but should I be up in arms that this *clearly (tongue in cheek)* how it is trained hence why it does this? No, of course not.  If i had taken a moment in time picture and posted it here, would there have been outrage. Of course.  A little perspective can go an awful long way.

Also, knowledge is powerful.  I sat through the demo of one very well respected classical trainer and was aghast at some of the comments she made. I couldn't believe my eyes and ears.  However, rather than blasting her for it, i sat and listened, made my own judgement and decided to (respectfully) ignore it.  The methods weren't ones I felt would benefit my horse or I at this time (and i cant imagine in the future), so I won't be using them.  There is no one forcing any of us to use methods we aren't comfortable with.

Lastly - British horses and riders aren't infallible.  I have spent alot of time watching GB riders at shows and at home and there are without doubt some occasions where I have winced.  Mistral Horjis for example is an extremely strong horse and Laura has often been seen to be taking some rather hefty half halts.  But that is what it is...unless you are sat on the horse its very difficult to judge.


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## CrazyCobLady (24 October 2013)

Poor horse.


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## hayinamanger (24 October 2013)

FlaxenPony05 said:



			Yep, definitely just a moment in time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InfgSpAl_GY

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Still overbent for majority of this video.


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## tristar (24 October 2013)

it just looks wrong, i don't like it and as for , if you can do better etc, well it would mean one would have to ride and train within that competition system to do 'better'.


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## ozpoz (24 October 2013)

PolarSkye said:



			Wow . . . what a pleasure to watch .

P
		
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Beautiful. And that picture of  harmony is what we used to aspire to.
Now sadly out of fashion.


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## Tnavas (24 October 2013)

Not sure if you will be able to see this - my friends young German warmblood pony stallion Hilkens Denali.

He goes to this place a couple of times a week so that he can play and the rider is a friend of the owner - normally an eventing rider she was having great fun trying for Passage, but getting baby piaffe.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=617550331624720&set=vb.337483452964744&type=2&theater


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## cptrayes (25 October 2013)

Tnavas said:



			Not sure if you will be able to see this - my friends young German warmblood pony stallion Hilkens Denali.

He goes to this place a couple of times a week so that he can play and the rider is a friend of the owner - normally an eventing rider she was having great fun trying for Passage, but getting baby piaffe.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=617550331624720&set=vb.337483452964744&type=2&theater

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What a cracking pony!!!

He's going to find piaffe a piece of cake isn't he, he's already more engaged than parzival


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## Auslander (25 October 2013)

Tnavas said:



			Not sure if you will be able to see this - my friends young German warmblood pony stallion Hilkens Denali.

He goes to this place a couple of times a week so that he can play and the rider is a friend of the owner - normally an eventing rider she was having great fun trying for Passage, but getting baby piaffe.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=617550331624720&set=vb.337483452964744&type=2&theater

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cptrayes said:



			What a cracking pony!!!

He's going to find piaffe a piece of cake isn't he, he's already more engaged than parzival 

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He's gorgeous - just been checking him out on the studs website. I want a 17hh version of him! http://www.hilkensdenali.com/stallion/hilkens-denali


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## RoseGrey (26 October 2013)

I feel a lot of dressage riders rely on the curb chain for submission and outline. 
If I had a chain around my jaw I would damn well give in too..!
I often wonder what the horse's skin is like under those curb chains.
I also personally wish that BD would ban double bridles and curb chains....that would sort the wheat from the chaff as far as riders and schooling methods !!!


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## Auslander (26 October 2013)

RoseGrey said:



			I feel a lot of dressage riders rely on the curb chain for submission and outline. 
If I had a chain around my jaw I would damn well give in too..!
I often wonder what the horse's skin is like under those curb chains.
I also personally wish that BD would ban double bridles and curb chains....that would sort the wheat from the chaff as far as riders and schooling methods !!!
		
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My horse has been ridden in a double for most of his career - and his skin is perfectly normal under where his curb chain goes. I don't think you quite understand how the majority of people use the curb rein of a double bridle. I find your statement quite offensive to those of us who work very hard to get it right.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 October 2013)

Auslander said:



			My horse has been ridden in a double for most of his career - and his skin is perfectly normal under where his curb chain goes. I don't think you quite understand how the majority of people use the curb rein of a double bridle. I find your statement quite offensive to those of us who work very hard to get it right.
		
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And me! CS skin also perfectly normal!!!


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## cptrayes (27 October 2013)

Yes me too. I hunt a very big horse who is a bit over enthusiastic  in a curb chain and he pulls very hard at times, yet his chin is normal too.


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