# The only place to get a pup from is an accredited KC breeder...



## GeeGeeboy (5 March 2015)

Says the secretary of the KC on Crufts . There's no way that will ever happen. 'designer-dog' breeders are taking over! Do you all agree?


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## PucciNPoni (5 March 2015)

Designer breeds still make up a small percentage of my client base.  In fact I've had more new standard poodles this past year (go Ricky!).

But they also did say accredited beeeder OR rescue.


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## blackcob (5 March 2015)

That would be a fair statement if the assured breeder scheme was the gold standard it promises to be. Which it isn't by a country mile.


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## GeeGeeboy (5 March 2015)

I'd say designer breeds are about 50% of my client base now. Yeah the vet guy said rescue but not the KC secretary who I was talking about.


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## MurphysMinder (5 March 2015)

blackcob said:



			That would be a fair statement if the assured breeder scheme was the gold standard it promises to be. Which it isn't by a country mile. 

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I know so many GSD breeders who have left the ABS, because they are breeding to a higher standard than some on the ABS.  It could have been such a great scheme but as usual the KCs greed has spoiled it.


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## blackcob (5 March 2015)

Possibly worth pointing out that Caroline Kisko is an assured breeder of Siberian huskies and has the following statement on her website:

"Even though we have had very few litters - and have kept most of the offspring from our litters over the years - we are nonetheless members of the KC Accredited Breeder Scheme. The scheme is intended to get rid of puppy farmers in the long term - and if anyone wants to debate the subject I'm more than happy to do so!

As a result we take part in all the health schemes relevant to the breed and *even the ones which aren't especially relevant, like hip scoring.* So our boys have eye certificates and have been hip scored."

Emphasis is my own!

ETA: Many of their dogs used for breeding don't have eye test results recorded.


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## PucciNPoni (5 March 2015)

ah I was only half listening.  Busy shaving FFT on wee Alice - off to go pack!


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## Leo Walker (5 March 2015)

I have lurchers. Might be tricky to get a KC registered one of those :lol:


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## {97702} (5 March 2015)

FrankieCob said:



			I have lurchers. Might be tricky to get a KC registered one of those :lol:
		
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Dont say that FC, they will be registering them as a breed with the Kennel Club before you can bat an eyelid   Look at Jack Russell terriers..... border collies......Parson Jack Russells.....


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## Leo Walker (5 March 2015)

My best and most beloved dog is a working whippet. He looks like a whippet on crack! Whippet shaped but with a butt like Jlo! His mum was racing bred and dad was a worker. He would be ideal for starting a breed of working whippets along the line of parsons. Maybe I'll set up a puppy farm and create my new designer breed? :lol:


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## Arizahn (6 March 2015)

I found mine (Smooth Collie cross Kelpie) via Gumtree back in 2011. He was an 8 week old pup, born in a cattle shed on a working farm in the middle of nowhere. Had to go through the Third Degree as to whether I could offer an appropriate home before I was allowed to come and view, and then the dam of the litter had to approve of me before I was allowed to see her pups. Mine cost me £70, and farmer gave me a pound back for luck too. Couldn't ask for a nicer animal. Next dog around, I'll use the same method. 

Kennel Club can go and jump as far I'm concerned, but then I'm not keen on canine-mop hybrids


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## Kaylum (6 March 2015)

Many people cannot get rescue dogs and so go elsewhere.


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## Dry Rot (6 March 2015)

Sadly, the road of good intentions does all too often lead to Hell!

The documentary "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" (freely available to view on YouTube) was aimed at exposing the evils of the KC but in the public's eye it just highlighted the problems in pedigree dogs. There is nothing wrong in inbreeding, it is the selection of suitable breeding stock that is the problem and an external examination on the show bench or show ring has been proved time and time again to be the formula for disaster. 

So Joe Public not unreasonably concludes that if pedigree breeding is bad, cross breeding must be good. But it's never that simple. Hard selection for function, as in the example of the sheepdog pup bought from a working farm, is at least a start. But is a working breed really suitable as a family pet?


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## MurphysMinder (6 March 2015)

As you say Dry Rot, Jemima Harrison did the world of pedigree dogs a great disservice with her programme.  I am not disputing that a lot breeds have health problems which needed attention, but breeders were trying (and succeeding) to improve things in many breeds way before that programme, all PDE has achieved is to encourage backyard breeders and puppyfarmers with their crossbreeds.  
The fact that there are so many rescues purely for Border Collies answers the question as to whether some working bred dogs are suitable for family pets.


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## Clodagh (6 March 2015)

MurphysMinder said:



			The fact that there are so many rescues purely for Border Collies answers the question as to whether some working bred dogs are suitable for family pets. 

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So true, MM, you rarely see one around here without it  having so many stereotypical behaviours. Unfortunately, like huskies, they are so cute and fluffy as ickle wickle babies.
I only saw the end of the interview but I think if people did go to a rescue or an accredited breeder it would be better in many ways.


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## MurphysMinder (6 March 2015)

Yes I agree in principle Clodagh, and a couple of years would maybe have agreed totally.  But the fact remains that many breeders (myself included) have left the ABS because the KC were giving the accreditation to breeders who didn't meet high enough standards in our opinion.   To be a member of the ABS a breeder has to health test their breeding stock, all well and good, but what the scheme doesn't do is set a standard for these health tests, so a breeder can breed from a dog with a high hip score and still be a member of the scheme.  Whereas another breeder will be penalised for not having a separate kitchen for preparing their dogs food, and in my own case for not having "retirement homes" lined up for my bitches when they were no longer being bred from.
This and other similar things are the reason so many previous members have left , because they feel they are setting higher standards than the scheme .   
This isn't sour grapes,  I had already stopped breeding when I had my inspection, and still passed despite the above "failure", but left the scheme on principle.  My dogs are my pets, not breeding machines to be passed on when they have finished being useful.


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## Meems (6 March 2015)

My fantastic, healthy, amazing little dog who is 14 now was bought from an advert I saw in Loot (the free ads paper).    She cost £200 and I bought her from a family - she had no papers.   I couldn't have wished for a better dog so don't think being KC registered is that important to be honest.   Maybe I was just very lucky, I don't know.


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## Clodagh (6 March 2015)

I think the main thing is to use your common sense. A lady I work with wanted a cheap pup and she found one, he was in a stable with 20 other pups of different breeds, she did meet the parents, they all had the squits and she still handed over £200 and took him home. He is very ill (not parvo, mainly worm damage) and has cost her a fortune. She was a muppet!


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## twiggy2 (6 March 2015)

blackcob said:



			That would be a fair statement if the assured breeder scheme was the gold standard it promises to be. Which it isn't by a country mile. 

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this


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## Amymay (6 March 2015)

Meems said:



			... so don't think being KC registered is that important to be honest.
		
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But for a first time dog owner (me), wanting a specific breed, it was (and remains) hugely important.


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## Goldenstar (7 March 2015)

I am entirely disinterested in buying a dog from a KC breeder I want a dog from a working family home .


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## Alec Swan (7 March 2015)

With what appears to be a complete lack of interest in the further and ongoing development of any breed of dog,  then it's beyond me how anyone can take the Kennel Club seriously on just about any topic.  The problem,  I suppose,  is that whilst there may be those amongst us who feel that they are competent at reaching decisions as to whether a 'breeder' is experienced enough to be considered as a voice worth listening to,  the tyro owner has to rely upon some guidelines,  and as such will grasp at the word 'Accredited',  so perhaps the service is of at least some use! 

Jumping through hoops to achieve a dubious accolade,  doesn't necessarily make for a competent breeder,  in my opinion.  The accredited scheme mentioned,  is I suppose,  better than nothing.

Alec.


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## Cyrus (7 March 2015)

If I want a particular breed I will approach the breed club for a copy of their breeders list not the KC Assured breeders drivel


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## HashRouge (7 March 2015)

My boss's parents have a Boerboel, which I think is a breed not registered with the Kennel Club. He's a very nice dog - like a mastiff but without all the droopy skin on his face.


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## Clodagh (7 March 2015)

Cyrus said:



			If I want a particular breed I will approach the breed club for a copy of their breeders list not the KC Assured breeders drivel
		
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Same here Cyrus. Although we have found both our last two breeders through word of mouth and personal recommendations, they are also KC reg but not assured.


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## planete (7 March 2015)

What I want to know above all about any prospective dog of mine, if it is not a rescue, is that both parents and even grand-parents have led a long and very active life without any physical or mental defects showing up.  A lurcher from known working parents bred by a good dog man fits the bill for me.  If I have a horse, it must be up to the work I want from him, same with a dog.  Until the Kennel Club promote grading 'trials' for breeding dogs similar to those for registered warmblood horses that will test their trainability and physical fitness, the whole registration system will be worthless for me.  Even a pet should be capable of an active life without 'breaking down'.
I am afraid that would weed out all breeds physically unfit for an active life but would that be such a bad thing?  How immune to suffering have we become to accept that some dogs will go through life wheezing and gasping for breath for instance?  or that some breeds can only reproduce by caesarian section?


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## MurphysMinder (7 March 2015)

You should go for a GSD planete. . A lot of the breeding stock is breed surveyed which is similar to a grading.


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## NinjaPony (7 March 2015)

Common sense is required. I got my dog from a KC breeder, but one with a very good reputation by word of mouth and I went all the way up to Glasgow from London in order to see my dog in her home environment, plus I met her parents, relatives, and got a full history of their health and the relevant tests. Equally, I enquired about another puppy, and the breeder wanted me to take the dog at 8 weeks- 4 weeks too early for a papillon, and was talking about how he would have another litter in a couple of months if I wanted another one- sent alarm bells ringing and this man was a KC breeder as well. I wish people would do more research before they got a dog.


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## wildoat (7 March 2015)

Clodagh said:



			I think the main thing is to use your common sense. A lady I work with wanted a cheap pup and she found one, he was in a stable with 20 other pups of different breeds, she did meet the parents, they all had the squits and she still handed over £200 and took him home. He is very ill (not parvo, mainly worm damage) and has cost her a fortune. She was a muppet!
		
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Unfortunately this is way too common.
There has to be some sort of regulation, not only for the health of the dogs but there also has to be some sort of criteria for who dogs are sold too!
Many breeders don't give a **** what will become of the pups as long as they get their cash.
Owning any dog is a privilege, breeding them should not be taken lightly and those involved should always put the dogs welfare before their own greed unfortunately this isn't always the case.


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## Meems (7 March 2015)

amymay said:



			But for a first time dog owner (me), wanting a specific breed, it was (and remains) hugely important.
		
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Well me too, it was the first time I'd owned a dog, I wanted this particular breed and I struck gold without her being KC registered.   

I knew someone who owned a Westie, who really was the most unattractive Westie I have ever seen, with a not particularly great temperament.   And they bought him from Harrods!


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## BSL (7 March 2015)

We did it all wrong with our pups. Saw an advert for Kevin, went and viewed him, owner was pregnant, all she was interested in was the money. His parents were there to be seen. To be honest if he had of had three legs I would have taken him just to get him out of there. Perry came from better back ground but still not great. Most probably not the right thing to admit to on here. I don't have any regrets though, just pleased to offer a home to two darling little boys.


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## blackcob (7 March 2015)

Sadly buying a non KC registered dog has been a minefield for me, she can't compete with a number of sled dog organisations due to lack of registration. The irony is that she's qualified for international competition via the national governing body, which runs events open all breeds and registration statuses, but can't compete in the Siberian husky breed club rally just up the road from us. The breed club rescue also only deals with KC registered dogs which irks me hugely. 

I am 95% sure where my next dog is coming from and it's because I've seen their dogs on the trail and they are outstanding, simple as. Happily they also do all requisite testing and have reasonable results in the show ring. They aren't members of the ABS - being members would add nothing in that situation.


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## Bosworth (7 March 2015)

I think it does depend on the breed. THe bedlington breed is small, and the breed group actively works to eradicate CT which was prevalent in the breed years ago. They are succeeding in the registered breed, in the working strain there does appear to still be CT around, and the working breeders deny it. With a registered pedigree I can see if my potential puppy has been tested for CT, whether he is likely to be a carrier, or actually have it or be CT free. If I go outside the KC registered pups I cannot get access to that information so I am completely in the dark as to health history. If I were buying a new bedlington I would only by from a KC registered breeder, and would want a full KC pedigree, plus dna test results for CT and a liver biopsy result for CT,


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## Cyrus (8 March 2015)

blackcob said:



			Sadly buying a non KC registered dog has been a minefield for me, she can't compete with a number of sled dog organisations due to lack of registration. The irony is that she's qualified for international competition via the national governing body, which runs events open all breeds and registration statuses, but can't compete in the Siberian husky breed club rally just up the road from us. The breed club rescue also only deals with KC registered dogs which irks me hugely. 

I am 95% sure where my next dog is coming from and it's because I've seen their dogs on the trail and they are outstanding, simple as. Happily they also do all requisite testing and have reasonable results in the show ring. They aren't members of the ABS - being members would add nothing in that situation.
		
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Oooo PM me who lol I am nosey


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## willhegofirst (8 March 2015)

We have two Italian Spinones, the first one we aquired, at 11 months, with no KC papers though I have since found out she came from one of the top show breeders in the country, to look at she is a great example of the breed, BUT she has a bit of a dodgy hip, an undershot jaw and very uneven front teeth. The second came from a family home who had a litter from their pet, both parents had all the appropriate health tests including CA . She is not such a good example, a bit to light and houndy, but, other than being a perpetual puppy and having a very dominant naughty gene! even at 5 years now, does not seem to have any heath problems. So I guess you have to be careful and even then you can have problems.


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## Alec Swan (8 March 2015)

blackcob said:



			Sadly buying a non KC registered dog has been a minefield for me, she can't compete with a number of sled dog organisations due to lack of registration. The irony is that she's qualified for international competition via the national governing body, which runs events open all breeds and registration statuses, but can't compete in the Siberian husky breed club rally just up the road from us. .. .
		
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The ISDS will recognise and accept for registration,  those sheepdogs which 'display' by Trial winning results,  their suitability to promote the breed.  The betterment of all working breeds comes from those dogs which demonstrate their abilities,  rather than the opinions of those who think that they 'may'!! 

The Show Bench influence continues to be the overbearing force  upon the Breed Societies,  it seems!

Alec.


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## blackcob (8 March 2015)

Sadly she will never set the sled dog world on fire, Alec, but she looks like a Siberian and runs like a Siberian. We will continue to support those organisations that run 'open' classes and the alternative breed rescue which accepts unregistered dogs. I will thumb my nose at the breed club when we're competing for team GB! 

Cyrus I have PM'd you, nosy parker.


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## Cinnamontoast (8 March 2015)

My next dogs will be from a KC breeder, purely because I can see the pedigree and the health tests. How else can you check lineage and health tests? I have two non KC registered springers with dodgy hips and a dodgy temperament and one KC registered, working lines, pedigree mostly red, never sick or sorry, running round the woods like a puppy today. So I know where I'm going for my next ones.


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## {97702} (8 March 2015)

Sadly my next dog will never come from a KC accredited breeder, the scheme is fundamentally flawed and allows somewhat dubious breeders to gain kudos in the eyes of the general public....

But then I am a 'rescue dogs all the way' sort of person


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