# Tension in Dressage



## Melodra (18 December 2018)

This weekend I did my dressage with my boy. He's a fizzy part bred Arab, he loves his work but is quite excitable and has come from a showjumping background. Our first time out he boiled over, highlights of our test including freestyle cantering down the centre line and an impressive sideways crab across the arena, but this time although he was excited (admittedly bit of a coiled spring) he was completely obedient and I was so happy with the huge improvement and how he went. The judge's comments pretty much reiterated this - lovely horse, shame too much tension today as his work is very promising - but she marked him pretty much on a level with how he was marked on his first time out, and seemed a little bit harsh. That said, I know it is swings and roundabouts with different judges, However, when I looked at the results he was placed below horses that were literally kicked around the arena and on their forehands and lazy but obviously calmer than my boy.

So, I guess my question is...is a horse showing a bit of tension due to excitement, but clearly enjoying himself and totally obedient and responsive, demonstrating quality work really so much worse than a horse that is more relaxed but being booted around the arena, not wanting to be there, not enjoying its work? Would be interested to get everyone's thoughts on this?


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## milliepops (18 December 2018)

Simple version of a longer answer, IMO they are both faults and one is not necessarily worse than the other but sometimes the nature of test riding makes one a bigger problem.

Longer answer. the way you end up scored can be affected differently. A horse that is relaxed but behind the leg, appears to you to be going through the motions might actually be scoring quite well. That horse might be riding accurate shapes, transitions at the correct markers, in the collectives would score highly for the submission elements, quite possibly stays in a regular rhythm even if it appears lacklustre to you and so on.
So they might have performed the test as it's written down quite well even if it seemed lazy.

Whereas if yours is tense, then the submission collective will be affected, as well as the regularity of the paces, if you've taken unplanned detours around the arena through exuberance then your rider mark will be clobbered because you aren't in control and that's before you even score the performance of the movements as written.

the dressage test is not just a general assessment of the horse, it's also about the horse and rider's ability to demonstrate a set floorplan, so if you think about it like that perhaps it makes more sense when you are scored like that.


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## be positive (18 December 2018)

It depends which way you look at things, to some judges a tense horse will not be showing "quality work" and may appear as if it is not really enjoying itself any more than the lazy one that requires kicking to keep going but is relaxed and could well be having a great time doing it's job without any real effort being made, at Intro or prelim most judges will give better marks for a quiet horse that is making no real mistakes even if they show little quality in what they are doing.
Judging is subjective and competing should be used as a guide to how you are progressing, if you were happy that he went better that is the main thing and you can take on board what requires working on, most horses improve with each outing even if the marks don't always reflect that improvement.


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## Cortez (18 December 2018)

"Calm, forward, straight" is the basic mantra of dressage. Calm, as you will note, is the first on the list. If the horse is tense in his body then he is incapable of using the muscles properly, so it really is the first thing that has to be present.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Thanks for the comments. I would say that if a horse has to be kicked to move forward, that isn't an obedient, responsive horse to me and certainly not enjoying its work. My boy was certainly enjoying himself, ears forward throughout the test, did everything that was asked of him, but was excited. I'm used to subjective judging on other horses and it has also worked in my favour in the past - and overall I'm massively happy with how he went. But I don't see that a horse being booted around an arena is particularly pleasing or should ever be the aim or considered worthy of high scores in dressage.


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## Cortez (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Thanks for the comments. I would say that if a horse has to be kicked to move forward, that isn't an obedient, responsive horse to me and certainly not enjoying its work. My boy was certainly enjoying himself, ears forward throughout the test, did everything that was asked of him, but was excited. I'm used to subjective judging on other horses and it has also worked in my favour in the past - and overall I'm massively happy with how he went. But I don't see that a horse being booted around an arena is particularly pleasing or should ever be the aim or considered worthy of high scores in dressage.
		
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Well, since you're not actually the judge your opinion is not really pertinent to the outcome. As the rider of horses that are also quite buzzy and enthusiastic (Spanish) I have learned to graciously accept that not all judges are going to appreciate the joi de vivre that they sometimes express in the ring.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Well, since you're not actually the judge your opinion is not really pertinent to the outcome. As the rider of horses that are also quite buzzy and enthusiastic (Spanish) I have learned to graciously accept that not all judges are going to appreciate the joi de vivre that they sometimes express in the ring.
		
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I've no problem with the comments which I agree with and perfectly gracious about it thank you. As I clearly stated above, I understand subjective judging and it has worked in my favour in the past when I have been scored more highly than I probably deserved.  But I am entitled to have an opinion about and discuss the judging of a test I have paid to enter, whether it affects the outcome or not.


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## Cortez (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			I've no problem with the comments which I agree with and perfectly gracious about it thank you. As I clearly stated above, I understand subjective judging and it has worked in my favour in the past when I have been scored more highly than I probably deserved.  But I am entitled to have an opinion about and discuss the judging of a test I have paid to enter, whether it affects the outcome or not.
		
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Perhaps you should discuss this with the judge, they may be able to explain their preference and what the criteria are. I'm not fond of stuffy, draggy horses either, but sometimes they are closer to the requirements of a test and level than something which is obviously tense and disobedient. Not sure what paying for something has to do with it, but of course you are entitled to your opinion. Just don't expect everyone to agree with you.


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## sportsmansB (18 December 2018)

I used to have an ex sj mare. She had no real time for dressage, suffered through it to event and thought pure dressage competitions were the most boring thing ever... Even when I came out pleased |(usually due to not adding extra canters, that was her favourite) we often still didn't score highly even though she moved well. I was also frustrated when the horses which looked to me like they were plodding around scored above us. But they were, generally, more secure in the contact, more accurate, had smoother transitions up and down, and calmer. Tension does reduce the scores massively, and what we see in our beloved as enthusiasm and enjoyment of the work (in mine, to be honest, it was more usually impatience!) can come across badly. My next horse after her was also a good mover but was a bit of a kick along in a test, but never moved his head, had the correct bend all the time, gave you loads of time to be accurate - and we got amazing scores. Pity he didn't like cross country...


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Perhaps you should discuss this with the judge, they may be able to explain their preference and what the criteria are. I'm not fond of stuffy, draggy horses either, but sometimes they are closer to the requirements of a test and level than something which is obviously tense and disobedient. Not sure what paying for something has to do with it, but of course you are entitled to your opinion. Just don't expect everyone to agree with you.
		
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Not expecting everyone to agree with me...but there is a way of disagreeing politely instead of trying to shut down the discussion. The judge's comments were actually lovely about him, she clearly thought there was some quality work from him - and I don't disagree with her comments at all. I am simply questioning if a relaxed but lazy horse on its forehand that has to be kicked along should be achieving high dressage scores.


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## ester (18 December 2018)

It depends what level you are talking about, if it is intro/prelim then yes they likely will, while having to use a lot of leg is not always a pretty picture if the horse is doing the motions in the right places calmly and most importantly accurately there isn't really a reason it wouldn't score quite well. Being shown to be 'enjoying the work' really comes pretty far down the list for dressage, and I wouldn't consider a tense horse to necessarily be demonstrating that either just because it has a keen attitude to life.

Fwiw I have a lazy albeit obedient one, he always scored well/better when he was on the lazier side than on the occasions he was hotter (welsh) because he would be much more through, rhythmical and generally accurate than when he was tense.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

sportsmansB said:



			I used to have an ex sj mare. She had no real time for dressage, suffered through it to event and thought pure dressage competitions were the most boring thing ever... Even when I came out pleased |(usually due to not adding extra canters, that was her favourite) we often still didn't score highly even though she moved well. I was also frustrated when the horses which looked to me like they were plodding around scored above us. But they were, generally, more secure in the contact, more accurate, had smoother transitions up and down, and calmer. Tension does reduce the scores massively, and what we see in our beloved as enthusiasm and enjoyment of the work (in mine, to be honest, it was more usually impatience!) can come across badly. My next horse after her was also a good mover but was a bit of a kick along in a test, but never moved his head, had the correct bend all the time, gave you loads of time to be accurate - and we got amazing scores. Pity he didn't like cross country...
		
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Tbh he loves all his work, including flatwork. In our collectives the judge stated that once he relaxed he would achieve high scores as he showed some very promising work and also remarked that he was obedient. In a lot of ways his showjumping has helped him the flat, he can do flying changes for fun but as you say yours was, he is exuberant. The main issue is that he can become a little tight in his frame as an outcome of that excitement and tension. It just seems strange to me to be considered a such hugely greater sin than a horse leaning on the bit on its forehand being kicked around the arena.


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## milliepops (18 December 2018)

OP if you really want to gain an understanding of why that is, then can i suggest attending some of the judge training days run by BD? most are open to all members and can be really useful to understanding why you score what you do sometimes.  I have certainly found it to be very helpful - I can't always do much about the way my horse is feeling on the day but I find it easier to walk out of the arena and predict the score rather than find it's a surprise when the results are posted.
  Failing that many judges are willing to discuss in more detail at the end of the day.


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## Hormonal Filly (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Not expecting everyone to agree with me...but there is a way of disagreeing politely instead of trying to shut down the discussion. The judge's comments were actually lovely about him, she clearly thought there was some quality work from him - and I don't disagree with her comments at all. I am simply questioning if a relaxed but lazy horse on its forehand that has to be kicked along should be achieving high dressage scores.
		
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Following with interest. I have 2 horses, one wizzy gelding and one very laid back gelding. My wizzy gelding always gets the same comments as yours. Very forward, fast etc. My other gelding is very chilled, big paces. He isn't a 'kick along ride' but he is very steady and you have to ask more rather than ask to steady up. 
I've always thought the wizzy one would do better dressage being more 'willing' but I was wrong. I never done any dressage on my laid back chap, scared of being laughed at but a friend who does affiliated said he'd do well, and hes placed every time we've been out. The judges seem to love him and that hes careful and doesn't rush. 

The more you do tests he'll calm down, keep at it, its easier to calm them down than give them more va voom.


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## milliepops (18 December 2018)

"willing" isn't a word that is used on the test sheet though. and you can only receive a score for something written on the test sheet.

to a degree a more forward, self motivated horse will score more highly for the impulsion collective (but perhaps not for the suppleness element of it) and possibly for the freedom of paces (but if it's tense, perhaps not for the regularity element of that).

Seriously, read all the words of the whole test sheet, that really helps to understand what is required for each movement.  THese days the movements all have directives written as well as additional details in the collectives. I have an advanced medium test sheet in front of me but the wording of the collectives is the same in all levels, try and assess honestly whether the "willing" horse really ticks more of the boxes than the more chilled horse? They probably have elements that each of them satisfy and elements that they don't. But often, a horse with less tension can also perform the actual movements better, *as they are written*, e.g. a round circle that is uniform in shape and size, with correct bend, consistent contact, attentive, regular, in balance etc.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Perhaps you should discuss this with the judge, they may be able to explain their preference and what the criteria are. I'm not fond of stuffy, draggy horses either, but sometimes they are closer to the requirements of a test and level than something which is obviously tense and disobedient. Not sure what paying for something has to do with it, but of course you are entitled to your opinion. Just don't expect everyone to agree with you.
		
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Just to respond further to that. As I stated above, he was totally obedient, did everything asked, when asked. He was not any stage disobedient - that is not what tension is. The judge acknowledged that he was an obedient horse in her collectives, she actually said he was a lovely horse who once relaxed would achieve high scores as  the quality of his work was very promising....the issue was tension and a tendency to tighten in his frame at times.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			OP if you really want to gain an understanding of why that is, then can i suggest attending some of the judge training days run by BD? most are open to all members and can be really useful to understanding why you score what you do sometimes.  I have certainly found it to be very helpful - I can't always do much about the way my horse is feeling on the day but I find it easier to walk out of the arena and predict the score rather than find it's a surprise when the results are posted.
  Failing that many judges are willing to discuss in more detail at the end of the day.
		
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Tbh I agree with her comments which I am not questioning.


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## Bellaboo18 (18 December 2018)

OP have you got a recording of the test? It'd be interesting to watch


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Bellaboo18 said:



			OP have you got a recording of the test? It'd be interesting to watch 

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Tbh, I would rather not put him up here to be slated by a couple of the posters above. I agree with the judge's comments on the sheet and I'm more than happy with how he went. My question is why a little tensiondue to excitement in otherwise obedient horse that receives positive comments in every other way is scored overall so much worse than outright laziness and a horse that has to be kicked to move forward.

To be honest it was meant more than a point of interest, than anything.


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## Bellaboo18 (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Tbh, I would rather not put him up here to be slated by a couple of the posters above. I agree with the judge's comments on the sheet and I'm more than happy with how he went. My question is why a little tension is judged so much worse than outright laziness and a horse that has to be kicked to move forward.
		
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I don't blame you. I was genuinely interested. I'm a show jumper at heart but have done the odd dressage test and plan to do a couple with my new mare just to start getting her out and about. She has paces to die for (I'm obviously biased) but wonder how she'll do compared to my old reliable cob.


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## ester (18 December 2018)

If you agree with the comments what are you questioning?, your OP says you felt the Judge was harsh which I think is why you have received indications as to why they might have been?

Or was your intention to more question the scores received by others?


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

ester said:



			If you agree with the comments what are you questioning? Just the scores that other horses achieved?
		
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I think I've been more than clear but will repeat again.

Again it was meant as a point of interest, Why is a horse that is otherwise obedient and receiving positive comments in every other aspect, but tense at times due to excitement, scored significantly worse than a horse that can only perform the movements by being kicked around the arena?

Is tension worse in a horse than laziness and being unresponsive?


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

ester said:



			If you agree with the comments what are you questioning?, your OP says you felt the Judge was harsh which I think is why you have received indications as to why they might have been?

Or was your intention to more question the scores received by others?
		
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Further to your edited comment, I did feel the marking was a little harsh, but not particularly bothered by that as swings and roundabouts with different judges. I was simply asking a generic question - not questioning the feedback which I agree with.

People really jump down your throat here for some reason, without reading properly. Wishing I hadn't bothered.


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## milliepops (18 December 2018)

no one's jumped down your throat. I thought I had tried to answer your question quite thoroughly, as have others.  At the end of the day, we can all have views about what we prefer to watch in dressage, but the reality is that there is a detailed scoring system that is applied by trained judges who have to pass exams, and  which allows only small variation for personal preference and bias - I'm speaking here about affiliated judging, unaffiliated can be highly variable and is barely worth even thinking about any scoring system unless they are using trained listed judges.  (and if it's unaffiliated that you are having the issue with then I would suggest joining BD and leaving that weird world behind).

Another source of written information about how the marks are applied is in the FEI dressage handbook guidelines for judges, it's a rather dry read but does explain the requirements for a movement to score every mark from 1 to 10.  anyone can buy a copy, I have one on my bookshelf


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## ester (18 December 2018)

Fwiw I always read properly, but the written word doesn't always convey what we want it to, hence my queries.

Essentially I think it boils down to yes, in my experience at least tension is worse than laziness and being unresponsive- in the way that you are having to use obvious aids to get the right thing to happen at the right time but they are happening.

I don't see any throat jumping either, merely suggestions to try and approach what you wrote in your OP.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			no one's jumped down your throat. I thought I had tried to answer your question quite thoroughly, as have others.  At the end of the day, we can all have views about what we prefer to watch in dressage, but the reality is that there is a detailed scoring system that is applied by trained judges who have to pass exams, and  which allows only small variation for personal preference and bias - I'm speaking here about affiliated judging, unaffiliated can be highly variable and is barely worth even thinking about any scoring system unless they are using trained listed judges.  (and if it's unaffiliated that you are having the issue with then I would suggest joining BD and leaving that weird world behind).

Another source of written information about how the marks are applied is in the FEI dressage handbook guidelines for judges, it's a rather dry read but does explain the requirements for a movement to score every mark from 1 to 10.  anyone can buy a copy, I have one on my bookshelf 

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I appreciated your constructive comments, think I â€œlikedâ€ a couple of them. 

It is more those who apparently donâ€™t feel I have the right to ask this question, or donâ€™t read the post properly and assume that my horse was disobedient/not carrying out each movement which I have stated several times he was. The judge described him as obedient in his collectives, really her only criticism throughout was tension and a corresponding tightening of his frame at times. No issues with accuracy, obedience, he is a lovely mover and she clearly thought he had potential. 

Not sure why then people on this thread keep describing him as disobedient,


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

ester said:



			Fwiw I always read properly, but the written word doesn't always convey what we want it to, hence my queries.

Essentially I think it boils down to yes, in my experience at least tension is worse than laziness and being unresponsive- in the way that you are having to use obvious aids to get the right thing to happen at the right time but they are happening.

I don't see any throat jumping either, merely suggestions to try and approach what you wrote in your OP.
		
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Thatâ€™s what I mean about not reading. He did everything he was asked, when asked. The judge stated that he was obedient in his collectives.


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## Bernster (18 December 2018)

I think itâ€™s an interesting discussion. I donâ€™t know the answer but Iâ€™ve found some of the replies here helpful in clarifying potential reasons.

I do however think itâ€™s hard for people as they are commenting on only whatâ€™s in your post, and replying on a general level from their experience (which is really all you can do on a forum like this) whereas you OP obv have more info and a different perspective.

And perhaps some people use the term disobedient to indicate tension or similar, or it could be seen as that in a test?  Judge doesnâ€™t know if your horse is tense cos itâ€™s excited or otherwise.

Just trying to help cut through what appears to be an interesting discussion that is in danger of going off course.  But hey thatâ€™s the curse of hho I suppose...


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## ester (18 December 2018)

TBF only one person, not people mentioned 'disobedient'.

In that post I am certainly not suggesting that a tense horse does not do things at the right time/is disobedient, just reiterating that even if a horse is off the aids (which obviously could lead to not doing things at the right place) that it will have to be doing things at the right place in order to generate a good score. If it is off the aids and only cantering several strides after it should have it will not score well over a tense horse.

Which kind of reiterates my point that it is easy to read things wrongly.


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## madamebonnie (18 December 2018)

It is hard when you have a fizzy horse. I spent my teens wishing my pony would just relax. She was obedient, talented and well schooled. But she found the whole thing very tense. So often she would not score much above 60% no matter the level because tension crept in. 

I now have a 'lazy kick-along'. The judges seem to like him. Above anything he is rhythmical and consistent. We are building the suppleness and power as we go. I will admit its not as nice a feeling riding a horse like that compared to a more wizzy pony, but the judges aren't riding. They're only judging what they see in front. 

I wish I could show the difference my instructor has made to my friends eventer. She is tense but obedient, powerful, lovely paces and again all the talent. Again the judges knock it badly. But the difference since training with this lady is amazing. The more she relaxes the more incredible she looks. I so wish I had my pony now! If you are based in Cheshire PM me and I'll send you some details.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

ester said:



			TBF only one person, not people mentioned 'disobedient'.

In that post I am certainly not suggesting that a tense horse does not do things at the right time/is disobedient, just reiterating that even if a horse is off the aids (which obviously could lead to not doing things at the right place) that it will have to be doing things at the right place in order to generate a good score. If it is off the aids and only cantering several strides after it should have it will not score well over a tense horse.

Which kind of reiterates my point that it is easy to read things wrongly.
		
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You yourself mentioned â€œnot doing things at the right timeâ€.... which I had clearly stated was not the case.

Again, the judge stated in the collectives that he was an obedient horse and when he relaxed would achieve high scores, so that was not the issue here.

And again, I am not questioning the judgeâ€™s comments. But I am asking if a horse that has to be kicked is or should be considered more correct.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Thank y


madamebonnie said:



			It is hard when you have a fizzy horse. I spent my teens wishing my pony would just relax. She was obedient, talented and well schooled. But she found the whole thing very tense. So often she would not score much above 60% no matter the level because tension crept in.

I now have a 'lazy kick-along'. The judges seem to like him. Above anything he is rhythmical and consistent. We are building the suppleness and power as we go. I will admit its not as nice a feeling riding a horse like that compared to a more wizzy pony, but the judges aren't riding. They're only judging what they see in front.

I wish I could show the difference my instructor has made to my friends eventer. She is tense but obedient, powerful, lovely paces and again all the talent. Again the judges knock it badly. But the difference since training with this lady is amazing. The more she relaxes the more incredible she looks. I so wish I had my pony now! If you are based in Cheshire PM me and I'll send you some details.
		
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Thank you, Iâ€™m not but I appreciate that. He has hugely improved already on his second time out, did everything he was asked this time, and again lovely comments from judge so feeling hopeful and excited about his future. We will get there!


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## Cortez (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Thatâ€™s what I mean about not reading. He did everything he was asked, when asked. The judge stated that he was obedient in his collectives.
		
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In your original post you described your horse as cantering sideways, etc. in one test, which would be marked as a disobedience - that is what I was referring to - and would be as a result of tension, which is apparently your main problem with the marks you are receiving. You are obviously upset at my responses, which is a shame as they were intended to answer your question. It sounds to me as if you are perhaps missing understanding of some of the building blocks of dressage, which has at it's purest root "calmness". You are asking us to tell you whether a calm horse that has to be pushed should score higher than one which is tense - you already have the answer for the test in which the marks reflected that.

Whether we will agree with the judge of the particular test you are complaining about would depend on viewing it which you don't want us to do, so it's hard to say really whether "you was robbed" or not.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			In your original post you described your horse as cantering sideways, etc., which would be marked as a disobedience - that is what I was referring to - and would be as a result of tension, which is apparently your main problem with the marks you are receiving. You are obviously upset at my responses, which is a shame as they were intended to answer your question. It sounds to me as if you are perhaps missing understanding of some of the building blocks of dressage, which has at it's purest root "calmness". You are asking us to tell you whether a calm horse that has to be pushed should score higher than one which is tense - you already have the answer for the test in which the marks reflected that.

Whether we will agree with the judge of the particular test you are complaining about would depend on viewing it which you don't want us to do, so it's hard to say really whether "you was robbed" or not.
		
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No, that was his first test!!!! 

Not this test, as I clearly stated. There was a huge improvement as he was absolutely obedient and the judge stated as much in his collectives.

Puts head in hands.


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## HufflyPuffly (18 December 2018)

It's an interesting discussion, but I do think you need to be less defensive about people commenting, there is a wealth of knowledge here if you leave your feelings out of it and try and take note from the more experienced posters.

I agree its a funny one, which is worse too much hand (to contain them) or too much leg (to push them), for too buzzy vs too lazy.

I will agree with the other posters that generally the tense/ buzzy horse will score less as that tension will cause the frame to become tight which will block the swing through the back and therefore block the hind leg. Whereas the lazy horse might need kicking on, but will be softer over the top line and back as there isn't tension affecting them.

When you watch your videos back does your horse track up well, as I'll bet (as the owner/ rider of my own v. buzzy and have the tense comments t-shirt) that there is a shortness due to the tension affecting the way of going, it is this sort of thing that movement by movement drops the marks down as it might be a mark or half a mark per movement but overall ends up very costly. I thought mine were moving well until I really got them soft and through, then it's a whole different ball game and you can understand why the marks were not there before.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			In your original post you described your horse as cantering sideways, etc. in one test, which would be marked as a disobedience - that is what I was referring to - and would be as a result of tension, which is apparently your main problem with the marks you are receiving. You are obviously upset at my responses, which is a shame as they were intended to answer your question. It sounds to me as if you are perhaps missing understanding of some of the building blocks of dressage, which has at it's purest root "calmness". You are asking us to tell you whether a calm horse that has to be pushed should score higher than one which is tense - you already have the answer for the test in which the marks reflected that.

Whether we will agree with the judge of the particular test you are complaining about would depend on viewing it which you don't want us to do, so it's hard to say really whether "you was robbed" or not.
		
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Further, why are you using the words â€œI was robbed?â€ I never used such words...why are you putting them in my mouth? Itâ€™s disingenous and dishonest of you. 

I have said throughout I agree with the judgeâ€™s comments. What is your problem?


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## Cortez (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			No, that was his first test!!!!

Not this test, as I clearly stated. There was a huge improvement as he was absolutely obedient and the judge stated as much in his collectives.

Puts head in hands.
		
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You can take your head out of your hands, I am aware that the horse was not disobedient in the second test, and that he did a better test, and that you were disappointed that he didn't score higher in it, etc., etc. I can read and comprehend quite well. The point is that tension is what is causing your problem, and yes: as far as dressage is concerned tension is worse than sleepy obedience.


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## be positive (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Thatâ€™s what I mean about not reading. He did everything he was asked, when asked. The judge stated that he was obedient in his collectives.
		
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I think the issue with a tense horse over the lazy one is that every movement will be marked down a point or two, what may be a 7 becomes a 6 or a 5 whereas the lazy horse may require a sharp kick, or more, to get it going the judge can still give a 7 if the movement is otherwise "fairly good" the rider having to work to get more will not really be penalised in the movements, if they get what they want, but may lose a few in the collectives but the tense horse will not pick up the collectives either because the tension will limit the marks that can be given. 
I have ridden many horses in lower level tests and generally the lazy relaxed ****** that make me work hard will get far better scores that anything that is tense and I know how frustrating it can be, a horse that really allows you to ride them for every movement yet is in front of the aids is a joy but it can be a fine line between being with you and either a bit behind or too much in front, it is part of the art of dressage that often eludes us once in the arena.


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## Cortez (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Further, why are you using the words â€œI was robbed?â€ I never used such words...why are you putting them in my mouth? Itâ€™s disingenous and dishonest of you.

I have said throughout I agree with the judgeâ€™s comments. What is your problem?
		
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What's yours? "I was robbed" is an expression, that's all - I wasn't quoting you, as you should well know. You may agree with the comments, but you obviously don't agree with the marks or the placing.


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## ester (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			You yourself mentioned â€œnot doing things at the right timeâ€.... which I had clearly stated was not the case.
		
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Again, that was a general comment, not about your horse, and actually more regarding lazy horses. One minute you say you want a general discussion but when people respond in a general way are then saying that your horse didn't do that (well we know, because we are talking generally).

And as said before yes, it is more correct for a horse to be kicked on and not tense.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

AlexHyde said:



			It's an interesting discussion, but I do think you need to be less defensive about people commenting, there is a wealth of knowledge here if you leave your feelings out of it and try and take note from the more experienced posters.

I agree its a funny one, which is worse too much hand (to contain them) or too much leg (to push them), for too buzzy vs too lazy.

I will agree with the other posters that generally the tense/ buzzy horse will score less as that tension will cause the frame to become tight which will block the swing through the back and therefore block the hind leg. Whereas the lazy horse might need kicking on, but will be softer over the top line and back as there isn't tension affecting them.

When you watch your videos back does your horse track up well, as I'll bet (as the owner/ rider of my own v. buzzy and have the tense comments t-shirt) that there is a shortness due to the tension affecting the way of going, it is this sort of thing that movement by movement drops the marks down as it might be a mark or half a mark per movement but overall ends up very costly. I thought mine were moving well until I really got them soft and through, then it's a whole different ball game and you can understand why the marks were not there before.
		
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Iâ€™m defensive of people misquoting me and misreading my original post and further implying that I am a sore loser rather than engaging in discussion.

There have been some great constructive and helpful comments; others have put words in my mouth, I really donâ€™t care how experienced these people claim to be; clearly not very if they think kicking a horse along is desirable.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			What's yours? "I was robbed" is an expression, that's all - I wasn't quoting you, as you should well know. You may agree with the comments, but you obviously don't agree with the marks or the placing.
		
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Why use the term when I had said nothing of the sort?


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

be positive said:



			I think the issue with a tense horse over the lazy one is that every movement will be marked down a point or two, what may be a 7 becomes a 6 or a 5 whereas the lazy horse may require a sharp kick, or more, to get it going the judge can still give a 7 if the movement is otherwise "fairly good" the rider having to work to get more will not really be penalised in the movements, if they get what they want, but may lose a few in the collectives but the tense horse will not pick up the collectives either because the tension will limit the marks that can be given.
I have ridden many horses in lower level tests and generally the lazy relaxed ****** that make me work hard will get far better scores that anything that is tense and I know how frustrating it can be, a horse that really allows you to ride them for every movement yet is in front of the aids is a joy but it can be a fine line between being with you and either a bit behind or too much in front, it is part of the art of dressage that often eludes us once in the arena.
		
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Thanks for this, this is probably the most helpful response so far, appreciated


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## milliepops (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Iâ€™m defensive of people misquoting me and misreading my original post and further implying that I am a sore loser rather than engaging in discussion.

There have been some great constructive and helpful comments; others have put words in my mouth, I really donâ€™t care how experienced these people claim to be; clearly not very if they think kicking a horse along is desirable.
		
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 i don't think anyone has said that's desirable, your question was whether it was right that it should score more highly than a tense horse. neither are *desirable*, but one is more costly in terms of scores than the other.


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## Cortez (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Why use the term when I had said nothing of the sort?
		
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Oh for crying out loud! Why use any term? It's a neat catch-all to describe the way you are coming across. You plainly feel that you should have scored higher than a horse which was going differently from yours, thus obviously putting you in opposition to the judge on the day, who preferred the way of going of the lazy one. Your question was, if I'm not mistaken, why this should be? I, and many others, have attempted to tell you that yes, generally speaking, this will be the outcome in lower level dressage competitions.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Oh for crying out loud! Why use any term? It's a neat catch-all to describe the way you are coming across. You plainly feel that you should have scored higher than a horse which was going differently from yours, thus obviously putting you in opposition to the judge on the day, who preferred the way of going of the lazy one. Your question was, if I'm not mistaken, why this should be? I, and many others, have attempted to tell you that yes, generally speaking, this will be the outcome in lower level dressage competitions.
		
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You put words in my mouth. Accused my horse of disobedience. Accused me of  being a sore loser.

I said I agreed with all of the judge's comments which were actually very favourable on the whole. I questioned generically if a horse, on its forehand leaning on the bit, being kicked along by its rider was more correct than a horse that was slightly tense but otherwise obedient and receiving otherwise positive comments. It was a question that I'm sure many people have asked themselves.

We will have to agree to disagree but please do not ever misquote me or put words in my mouth.


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## Red-1 (18 December 2018)

I have ridden BD and judged Trailblazer and I would mark down a tense horse. 

To me one of the cornerstones of training is that the horse is soft, as opposed to light. Light means that the horse responds, but with a tight quality. If the horse looks OK, but you give the rein and he does not softly follow, that is light not soft. For any correct work the horse has to respond softly, have retained his reach and comfort with the bit. He will stretch softly, bend softly, remain soft in his mind and body.

With a horse who yields to pressure in a soft way, then you can easily add a bit more energy, and the horse's body is aligned to take that extra energy and use it productively. The horse will lift the back. 

With a tense horse, who on the face of it is being obedient, usually the contact is light but rather false, as in if the rein is lengthened the horse does not reach into the contact and seek. The outline or frame is more tense. In these horses if you add more energy into the mix, then the situation will get worse not better as the basic corners of control are not covered.

Personally, when I re-schooled horses, I would be able to have a much better result in a time frame with a horse who was confident, soft, moving without tension than with a horse who was guarding themselves with tension. For a tense horse I would take the training back a stage and teach the horse to reach and stretch, be confident to seek into the contact, before any further work could be done. With a very tense horse I would start that work on the ground, to teach the horse to softly hold the bit, to relax and yield to a contact without hiding behind it. 

To me, a correct but slightly lazy horse is further on in their training. A tense horse needs some re-education which takes longer than initial education. 

My view only, I am not necessarily expecting anyone to agree!


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## milliepops (18 December 2018)

think many of us would agree with you Red


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			I have ridden BD and judged Trailblazer and I would mark down a tense horse.

To me one of the cornerstones of training is that the horse is soft, as opposed to light. Light means that the horse responds, but with a tight quality. If the horse looks OK, but you give the rein and he does not softly follow, that is light not soft. For any correct work the horse has to respond softly, have retained his reach and comfort with the bit. He will stretch softly, bend softly, remain soft in his mind and body.

With a horse who yields to pressure in a soft way, then you can easily add a bit more energy, and the horse's body is aligned to take that extra energy and use it productively. The horse will lift the back.

With a tense horse, who on the face of it is being obedient, usually the contact is light but rather false, as in if the rein is lengthened the horse does not reach into the contact and seek. The outline or frame is more tense. In these horses if you add more energy into the mix, then the situation will get worse not better as the basic corners of control are not covered.

Personally, when I re-schooled horses, I would be able to have a much better result in a time frame with a horse who was confident, soft, moving without tension than with a horse who was guarding themselves with tension. For a tense horse I would take the training back a stage and teach the horse to reach and stretch, be confident to seek into the contact, before any further work could be done. With a very tense horse I would start that work on the ground, to teach the horse to softly hold the bit, to relax and yield to a contact without hiding behind it.

To me, a correct but slightly lazy horse is further on in their training. A tense horse needs some re-education which takes longer than initial education.

My view only, I am not necessarily expecting anyone to agree!
		
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Thank you for this, this is helpful. He is only tense at events which is hard to replicate at home - and I imagine my nerves do not help matters. That said, he was much improved on only his second time out, so hopefully we are getting there!

One question though.. is a horse who is leaning on his forehand on his rider really soft though? Isn't this just another means of evading a correct contact?


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## Cortez (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			You put words in my mouth. Accused my horse of disobedience. Accused me of  being a sore loser.

I said I agreed with all of the judge's comments which were actually very favourable on the whole. I questioned generically if a horse, on its forehand leaning on the bit, being kicked along by its rider was more correct than a horse that was slightly tense but otherwise obedient and receiving otherwise positive comments. It was a question that I'm sure many people have asked themselves.

We will have to agree to disagree but please do not ever misquote me or put words in my mouth.
		
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That sounds rather threatening....and you have accused me of being dishonest: clearly we are not going to be friends. 

Not sure why you're so hung up on this, you have repeatedly had the answer you were asking for, although plainly not the one you want: yes, tension will be marked down over boring, kick-along obedience - it is one of the central tenets of dressage. And it was YOU who mentioned that your horse was, in a previous test, disobedient.

You are coming across as a sore loser, yes. Also one who doesn't like to hear things that happen to be inconveniently in opposition to your firmly held, but unfortunately inaccurate views.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			That sounds rather threatening....and you have accused me of being dishonest: clearly we are not going to be friends.

Not sure why you're so hung up on this, you have repeatedly had the answer you were asking for, although plainly not the one you want: yes, tension will be marked down over boring, kick-along obedience - it is one of the central tenets of dressage. And it was YOU who mentioned that your horse was, in a previous test, disobedient.

You are coming across as a sore loser, yes. Also one who doesn't like to hear things that happen to be inconveniently in opposition to your firmly held, but unfortunately inaccurate views.
		
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I'm not sure what your problem, is but please don't engage with me if all you want to do is intentionally misinterpret my words.

I am happy with the way my horse went. I'm happy with the judge's comments. I questioned the correctness of what I see as the opposite problem to mine. Some people chose to respond constructively in that in the context of scoring, tension is likely to lose more marks but not necessarily less correct/worse than a horse on its forehand. You chose to attack me without listening to what I was trying to say.

Whatever is going on in your life, please don't take it out on me.

You might note, that I have thanked those who bothered to respond without an attack. I'm not looking for a particular answer. It was my horse's second time out and I am beyond happy with him. It was a simple question.


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## Red-1 (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Thank you for this, this is helpful. He is only tense at events which is hard to replicate at home. That said, he was much improved on only his second time out, so hopefully we are getting there!
		
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I have had to teach horses to deal with many unusually stressful situations, and IME, if the training is truly sorted a home, it does not come unravelled. Many horses can approximate to the correct responses, but if truly obedient you will be able to work the horse and decide where the horse holds the head/neck. I mean, be able to place the head far out and low, without pulling. It is like a magic switch where the horse is taught to relax, stretch, seek the contact. 

With a baby I spend ages in walk, changing where I want the frame to be. Let it out, bring it in, all with a loose swinging back. Lateral flexion is also a 'tell' as if a horse is truly loose then lateral flexion is easy to achieve without the horse twisting the head, the ears and eyes should remain level. A tense horse will tend to tilt. 

If the horse is at a stage where he can't go into the dressage ring without becoming tense then more work needs doing both at home and also in schooling in unfamiliar situations. My last horse had some naughty habits and I made sure he was happy in many situations before doing a show.  I would hire a collecting ring at the end of a show, so the buzz was still there, ad finish with a walk on a stretched frame in the ring. I address nappyness issues, so the horse is happy to leave others.  I have 'thrown' a competition on occasion by warming up and then doing less in the actual ring so the horse loses the association that the ring is where hard work happens. In fact, I may well be one of those combinations where the horse looks lazy, as for me very much relaxation, softness, yielding has to come before the pieces can all be put together. 

A horse does not innately know what a competition ring is. If he is reacting differently there then either he is not sufficiently acclimatised to different places, not acclimatised to leaving other horses or the rider is riding differently. They certainly have no concept of competition unless in a race where all horses are running together (certainly not in a dressage competition!). Oh yes, they can come to enjoy competition, I believe I actually ride better in the arena, I am more focussed, but I actually ask 5% less of my horse in there, ride for the NEXT competition, rather than for this one. 

If the horse has been even the slightest bit different we go back into the collecting ring and address whatever the issue was, which also works if the horse believes that we go from the ring to the horsebox. Nope, it is not for the horse to make assumptions and decisions, it is for the horse to stay with me and listed to what I am asking.

I can't see the point in taking a tense horse repeatedly to dressage without addressing the issues. You get what you practice, so I prefer not to practice being tense, even if that means going back to ground work.


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## Cortez (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			I'm not sure what your problem, is but please don't engage with me if all you want to do is intentionally misinterpret my words.

I am happy with the way my horse went. I'm happy with the judge's comments. I questioned the correctness of what I see as the opposite problem to mine. Some people chose to respond constructively in that in the context of scoring, tension is likely to lose more marks but not necessarily more correct. You chose to attack me without listening to what I was trying to say.

Whatever is going on in your life, please don't take it out on me.
		
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I give up!


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			I have had to teach horses to deal with many unusually stressful situations, and IME, if the training is truly sorted a home, it does not come unravelled. Many horses can approximate to the correct responses, but if truly obedient you will be able to work the horse and decide where the horse holds the head/neck. I mean, be able to place the head far out and low, without pulling. It is like a magic switch where the horse is taught to relax, stretch, seek the contact.

With a baby I spend ages in walk, changing where I want the frame to be. Let it out, bring it in, all with a loose swinging back. Lateral flexion is also a 'tell' as if a horse is truly loose then lateral flexion is easy to achieve without the horse twisting the head, the ears and eyes should remain level. A tense horse will tend to tilt.

If the horse is at a stage where he can't go into the dressage ring without becoming tense then more work needs doing both at home and also in schooling in unfamiliar situations. My last horse had some naughty habits and I made sure he was happy in many situations before doing a show.  I would hire a collecting ring at the end of a show, so the buzz was still there, ad finish with a walk on a stretched frame in the ring. I address nappyness issues, so the horse is happy to leave others.  I have 'thrown' a competition on occasion by warming up and then doing less in the actual ring so the horse loses the association that the ring is where hard work happens. In fact, I may well be one of those combinations where the horse looks lazy, as for me very much relaxation, softness, yielding has to come before the pieces can all be put together.

A horse does not innately know what a competition ring is. If he is reacting differently there then either he is not sufficiently acclimatised to different places, not acclimatised to leaving other horses or the rider is riding differently. They certainly have no concept of competition unless in a race where all horses are running together (certainly not in a dressage competition!). Oh yes, they can come to enjoy competition, I believe I actually ride better in the arena, I am more focussed, but I actually ask 5% less of my horse in there, ride for the NEXT competition, rather than for this one.

If the horse has been even the slightest bit different we go back into the collecting ring and address whatever the issue was, which also works if the horse believes that we go from the ring to the horsebox. Nope, it is not for the horse to make assumptions and decisions, it is for the horse to stay with me and listed to what I am asking.

I can't see the point in taking a tense horse repeatedly to dressage without addressing the issues. You get what you practice, so I prefer not to practice being tense, even if that means going back to ground work.
		
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Thank you for this. 

I can see where you are coming from, totally agree with lots of work needed at home, although again, he is relaxed at home. The collecting ring hire sounds like a great idea.

That said, we saw a huge improvement from his first test to the second. This was only his second test. The horse listened and was absolutely obedient and the tension came from over exuberance rather than discomfort or distress, he showed a huge amount of learning. He is a part bred Arab and it is his nature to be excitable...not sure it is totally fair to say that the horse generally can't go in a dressage ring without becoming tense. I also didn't go there to win/be placed (the event was local to us) I went exactly for that experience for the horse. His score was also respectable, but it wouldn't have worried me had it been low...my expectations were not high in the first place!

The judge seemed to feel it was a given that he would in time become more relaxed...


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## madamebonnie (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			One question though.. is a horse who is leaning on his forehand on his rider really soft though? Isn't this just another means of evading a correct contact?
		
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Leaning or on the forehand? George has always had a fairly good contact but is prone to being on the forehand mainly because of weakness, he never gave the feeling of leaning ON me. A young horse could be particularly prone to this or a horse built that way for example a thoroughbred. It is not correct to lean or be on the forehand. Nor is it to be behind the vertical.

I find this diagram of the scales of training helps


__ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/328551735288277563/
If you went straight in to impulsion without the lower building block which you might find with a wizzy horse, the whole picture is ruined. You wouldn't find a good Rhythm, they obviously wouldn't be supple, as tense, and an incorrect connection from either too much trying to keep them together or too light as mentioned above.
Whereas a horse that has Rhythm, is reasonably supple but is still developing a contact; and then might be a bit on the forehand would still get higher marks even if they haven't developed impulsion yet.

Some say the scales are interchangeable but you get the idea from a scoring point of view how this sort of horse may score higher. Doesn't mean the judge would 'like' this horse more than the other. 
https://image.slidesharecdn.com/tra...namic-training-scale-25-638.jpg?cb=1414114827


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

madamebonnie said:



			Leaning or on the forehand? George has always had a fairly good contact but is prone to being on the forehand mainly because of weakness, he never gave the feeling of leaning ON me. A young horse could be particularly prone to this or a horse built that way for example a thoroughbred. It is not correct to lean or be on the forehand. Nor is it to be behind the vertical.

I find this diagram of the scales of training helps


__ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/328551735288277563/
If you went straight in to impulsion without the lower building block which you might find with a wizzy horse, the whole picture is ruined. You wouldn't find a good Rhythm, they obviously wouldn't be supple, as tense, and an incorrect connection from either too much trying to keep them together or too light as mentioned above.
Whereas a horse that has Rhythm, is reasonably supple but is still developing a contact; and then might be a bit on the forehand would still get higher marks even if they haven't developed impulsion yet.

Some say the scales are interchangeable but you get the idea from a scoring point of view how this sort of horse may score higher. Doesn't mean the judge would 'like' this horse more than the other.
https://image.slidesharecdn.com/tra...namic-training-scale-25-638.jpg?cb=1414114827

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This is what I meant. It is not correct for the horse to lean onto the rider's hands. working on the forehand is not correct. Kicking a horse is not correct. But this and some of the comments here have been helpful in gauging why a horse that is no more correct could still regardless score more highly in the test itself.


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## Maesto's Girl (18 December 2018)

Could have written this about my Arab. The amount of comments I get saying my marks would improve greatly if she just relaxes! I'd be rich if I got Â£1 for each one....by each movement and in the overall comments box 

She's always on one, but very accurate for movements which saves our scores at a 6, but she *can* do better when she thinks about it. I have seen people miss markers and movements on "lazy" ponies score better than we have because of the consistency of what is considered a more pleasing rhythm. 

Annoying as she has a lovely, expressive movement and is so responsive - and we could be on 7/7.5's at least


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## ester (18 December 2018)

I think that goes back to what level again though, at lower levels being on the forehand is going to be penalised differently than if it were occurring at a higher level.


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## ihatework (18 December 2018)

Having ridden dressage on tense horses and calm/idle ones the latter almost always score better - although I have to say I prefer the former for some daft reason.

I think the tension is scored harshly because it impacts 2 different areas of way of going - submission (a tense horse hasnâ€™t really submitted to the rider even if they are performing the basics of the movement) and also suppleness (tight horse does not make a supple ride!). Then because of those two things often the odd rhythm blip or lack of straightness pops in. 

You can rest assured you are going to loose at least 1 mark a movement but often 2 depending on how tense.

A tense but reasonably obedient otherwise test in my experience is in the 58-62 bracket. Throw in more extreme tension and/or disobedience and it trends downwards


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Maesto's Girl said:



			Could have written this about my Arab. The amount of comments I get saying my marks would improve greatly if she just relaxes! I'd be rich if I got Â£1 for each one....by each movement and in the overall comments box 

She's always on one, but very accurate for movements which saves our scores at a 6, but she *can* do better when she thinks about it. I have seen people miss markers and movements on "lazy" ponies score better than we have because of the consistency of what is considered a more pleasing rhythm.

Annoying as she has a lovely, expressive movement and is so responsive - and we could be on 7/7.5's at least
		
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Wouldnâ€™t change them for the world though! As you say, lovely responsive rides - he is such a fast learner too!  Itâ€™s a blessing to ride a horse who loves to work, but with that I guess we have to accept some over excitement on occasion


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## Maesto's Girl (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Wouldnâ€™t change them for the world though! As you say, lovely responsive rides - he is such a fast learner too!  Itâ€™s a blessing to ride a horse who loves to work, but with that I guess we have to accept some over excitement on occasion
		
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Sometimes I would (Hahaha kidding)

She seems to be chilling out a bit now (thankfully) and in my lesson the other day pulled out a lovely, relaxed (for the most part) looking test. Perhaps she's finally decided its a much easier life than trying to spin/rush off/spook/jump sideways! I can but pray! We are only doing UA prelims currently but I think she'll do better at novice when she calms a tad as it'll keep her mind occupied. Unfortunately she's a bit like a magpie and always on the look out for something if there's a gap of "doing"


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## Littlebear (18 December 2018)

I have ridden several of both types, there are huge variations of both!
My current horse is quite tense/hot and this manifests at times with uneven steps, tightness over the back, lacking lateral suppleness etc - she has the wow factor so to most people starting out they would never spot those things but to an experienced judge they see it a mile away and rightly so mark me down accordingly! 
Rhythm is the first point in the scales of training so if tension affects that my scores should reflect it
If she was calm and I was kicking along but the rhythm/ submission etc was good then I would have expect that to mark higher as tension affects too many of the basic requirements.
This is why Valegro smashed so many records ... he does everything with a relaxed attitude.
I wouldnâ€™t underestimate how much of an issue tension is when it comes to dressage, you need positive tension as you move up the levels but the basic requirements must be met to get a reasonable score.
I have learnt over the years not to feel threatened by the flashiest horse in the warm up itâ€™s often the least appealing ones that do a clean, rhythmic test that smash all the flash warm bloods out of the water!


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Maesto's Girl said:



			Sometimes I would (Hahaha kidding)

She seems to be chilling out a bit now (thankfully) and in my lesson the other day pulled out a lovely, relaxed (for the most part) looking test. Perhaps she's finally decided its a much easier life than trying to spin/rush off/spook/jump sideways! I can but pray! We are only doing UA prelims currently but I think she'll do better at novice when she calms a tad as it'll keep her mind occupied. Unfortunately she's a bit like a magpie and always on the look out for something if there's a gap of "doing"
		
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Haha, there was definitely more for him to think about in his second test, which I think definitely helped in him not going off piste this time, heâ€™s much better when his mind is more occupied!


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Littlebear said:



			I have ridden several of both types, there are huge variations of both!
My current horse is quite tense/hot and this manifests at times with uneven steps, tightness over the back, lacking lateral suppleness etc - she has the wow factor so to most people starting out they would never spot those things but to an experienced judge they see it a mile away and rightly so mark me down accordingly!
Rhythm is the first point in the scales of training so if tension affects that my scores should reflect it
If she was calm and I was kicking along but the rhythm/ submission etc was good then I would have expect that to mark higher as tension affects too many of the basic requirements.
This is why Valegro smashed so many records ... he does everything with a relaxed attitude.
I wouldnâ€™t underestimate how much of an issue tension is when it comes to dressage, you need positive tension as you move up the levels but the basic requirements must be met to get a reasonable score.
I have learnt over the years not to feel threatened by the flashiest horse in the warm up itâ€™s often the least appealing ones that do a clean, rhythmic test that smash all the flash warm bloods out of the water!
		
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Yes, can see that viewpoint and certainly agree regarding the issues tension causes. But I donâ€™t feel that a horse leaning on the hands as the many I saw doing is being soft or submissive at all. Itâ€™s a form of evasion, as is ignoring basic leg aids. I really donâ€™t think kicking has any place on any horse in any sphere. Itâ€™s plain wrong and if I had to kick my horse for it to move I would wonder what was going wrong....


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## Littlebear (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Yes, can see that viewpoint and certainly agree regarding the issues tension causes. But I donâ€™t feel that a horse leaning on the hands as the many I saw doing is being soft or submissive at all. Itâ€™s a form of evasion, as is ignoring basic leg aids. I really donâ€™t think kicking has any place on any horse in any sphere. Itâ€™s plain wrong and if I had to kick my horse for it to move I would wonder what was going wrong....
		
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I agree, I donâ€™t agree with kicking along I donâ€™t imagine anybody does Iâ€™m just musing over why one would score higher than the other 
What level are you competing at and is it bd or unaff ? Sorry if youâ€™ve mentioned and Iâ€™ve missed it!


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## madamebonnie (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Yes, can see that viewpoint and certainly agree regarding the issues tension causes. But I donâ€™t feel that a horse leaning on the hands as the many I saw doing is being soft or submissive at all. Itâ€™s a form of evasion, as is ignoring basic leg aids. I really donâ€™t think kicking has any place on any horse in any sphere. Itâ€™s plain wrong and if I had to kick my horse for it to move I would wonder what was going wrong....
		
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Ok I'll play devils advocate for these Lazy horses. What would you do if you got on one that was slow or did respond to your first leg aid?


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

madamebonnie said:



			Ok I'll play devils advocate for these Lazy horses. What would you do if you got on one that was slow or did respond to your first leg aid?
		
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Littlebear said:



			I agree, I donâ€™t agree with kicking along I donâ€™t imagine anybody does Iâ€™m just musing over why one would score higher than the other
What level are you competing at and is it bd or unaff ? Sorry if youâ€™ve mentioned and Iâ€™ve missed it!
		
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Itâ€™s unaff Prelim on him, just introducing him to dressage, which as someone said above might account for the scoring...but tbh not looking for excuses. Genuinely interested in why one would be seen as more correct than the other.


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## ihatework (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Itâ€™s unaff Prelim on him, just introducing him to dressage, which as someone said above might account for the scoring...but tbh not looking for excuses. Genuinely interested in why one would be seen as more correct than the other.
		
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And youâ€™ve been told, by a few people putting in in a few different ways


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## sportsmansB (18 December 2018)

At the lower levels, I am pretty sure that a horse which swings along in a relaxed rhythm with a soft back and a consistent contact and does an accurate test will always score better than a tense horse- even if it takes a bit of leg to keep said horse doing it. 
I am sorry OP if that is not the answer you want (and clearly from your responses it is not) but its just a fact of life.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

madamebonnie said:



			Ok I'll play devils advocate for these Lazy horses. What would you do if you got on one that was slow or did respond to your first leg aid?
		
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We have been working with a horse who would not go forward at all, blatantly ignored leg aids, written off as lazy. Heâ€™d been kicked and schooling whip constantly used and was totally desensitised to it. He was actually not confident and afraid to come forward because someone has punished him for it previously. Itâ€™s been a long slow process of reinforcement through praise and reward with him and he is now confident, responsive to the leg, goes forward and enjoys his work. 

Seen a few comments dismissing whether a horse should enjoy his work...why would that not be important to them simply because it is not scored? And what is enjoyable for the horse about being kicked around an arena and constantly punished?


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

ihatework said:



			And youâ€™ve been told, by a few people putting in in a few different ways
		
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By some people. Not by others who chose to attack. 

From the private messages Iâ€™ve had this seems to be a persistent problem with some of you.

Please go away. Thanks.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

sportsmansB said:



			At the lower levels, I am pretty sure that a horse which swings along in a relaxed rhythm with a soft back and a consistent contact and does an accurate test will always score better than a tense horse- even if it takes a bit of leg to keep said horse doing it.
I am sorry OP if that is not the answer you want (and clearly from your responses it is not) but its just a fact of life.
		
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You are assuming the other horses I refer to were relaxed and swinging their backs. Sorry but that isnâ€™t achieved by a horse leaning on the rider.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			You are assuming the other horses were relaxed and swinging their backs. Sorry but that isnâ€™t achieved by a horse leaning on the rider.
		
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Oh and â€œa bit of leggingâ€ is not kicking.

And as Iâ€™ve stated above a thousand times, Iâ€™m not looking for and answer and have received a number of constructive comments and private messages.

But tbh Iâ€™m not ever going to agree with someone who believes a horse leaning on the hands and being booted along is an example of a soft, submissive horse, no.


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## Mule (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Yes, can see that viewpoint and certainly agree regarding the issues tension causes. But I donâ€™t feel that a horse leaning on the hands as the many I saw doing is being soft or submissive at all. Itâ€™s a form of evasion, as is ignoring basic leg aids. I really donâ€™t think kicking has any place on any horse in any sphere. Itâ€™s plain wrong and if I had to kick my horse for it to move I would wonder what was going wrong....
		
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It can also be difficult to get well prepared, balanced transitions and ride an accurate test in a 20x40 arena. If a rider has to sacrifice a bit of forwardness for balance and a regular rhythm at prelim, I don't think that's the end of the world.

My horse is pretty chilled but has potential for trouble in his walk. If he's tense it becomes lateral. This can happen with or without seat and rein contact. We can stroll along on the buckle and  if he feels tension his walk degenerates. My point is that tension can be serious to the extent that it affects the very basics of rhythm and regularity of gaits.


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## Littlebear (18 December 2018)

I would suggest you volunteer to write for some judges at your local venue, you will learn heaps from them about the howâ€™s and whys of scoring and they will answer any questions you have.
I judge and have so many different writers that volunteer to learn and always answer anything they want to know, itâ€™s so useful especially if youâ€™re serious about climbing the ladder in dressage!
I think there is a point where you will always have some question marks over how someone did well over someone else and there will always be variations between judges but try to absorb as many opinions as you can to learn x


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## sportsmansB (18 December 2018)

Its obviously not really other peoples points of view that you are looking for, as you shoot them down, but it is difficult to offer any further insights as we didn't see either your horse or the other horses to be able to make any kind of comparison. 
Unfortunately, whether we love it or don't, or its right or its wrong, in most cases in a low level test- tension (and inaccuracy - not suggesting you are inaccurate though, its just a second example!) will take marks away across the board. At prelim it is allowed for a horse to be a bit 'poll low'. 

My SJ got her best marks when we did hard tests which permitted her to show much more fun stuff like cantering centre lines and doing leg yields and mediums- so just look forward to those days to come and work on the relaxation in the meantime. Many suggested sound proof ears to me for her to help relax but they made not one iota of difference lol


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## madamebonnie (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			We have been working with a horse who would not go forward at all, blatantly ignored leg aids, written off as lazy. Heâ€™d been kicked and schooling whip constantly used and was totally desensitised to it. He was actually not confident and afraid to come forward because someone has punished him for it previously. Itâ€™s been a long slow process of reinforcement through praise and reward with him and he is now confident, responsive to the leg, goes forward and enjoys his work.

Seen a few comments dismissing whether a horse should enjoy his work...why would that not be important to them simply because it is not scored? And what is enjoyable for the horse about being kicked around an arena and constantly punished?
		
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It is important for a horse to enjoy his work but how do you score it? Ears forward? Could be spooking. Forward going? Could be running away from the leg. Horses don't wag their tails or smile. Relaxation is a fairly good indicator of a happy and willing horse. 

Unaffiliated dressage is a minefield. There are all sorts of riders and horses there. Only the judge has the power that day to judge what is in front of them according to their training and rules. Its not fair to judge riders you see "kicking along". You don't know them or their horses back story. Someone may have unfairly judged you for looking a bit wild in your first test. Just as you are unhappy with the comments on here. It is fair to question why someone is scoring higher but not to judge others riding if you cant take people judging your own.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

sportsmansB said:



			Its obviously not really other peoples points of view that you are looking for, as you shoot them down, but it is difficult to offer any further insights as we didn't see either your horse or the other horses to be able to make any kind of comparison.
Unfortunately, whether we love it or don't, or its right or its wrong, in most cases in a low level test- tension (and inaccuracy - not suggesting you are inaccurate though, its just a second example!) will take marks away across the board. At prelim it is allowed for a horse to be a bit 'poll low'.

My SJ got her best marks when we did hard tests which permitted her to show much more fun stuff like cantering centre lines and doing leg yields and mediums- so just look forward to those days to come and work on the relaxation in the meantime. Many suggested sound proof ears to me for her to help relax but they made not one iota of difference lol
		
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Thatâ€™s not really fair though is it, Iâ€™ve thanked people a number of times above for their constructive comments. Some I donâ€™t agree with....as I say I will never agreed that an unbalanced horse leaning on the riderâ€™s hands is soft or submissive. I think (and from the messages Iâ€™ve had) that some of the well known posters here are also known for arguing black is white as far as new members go ...and they must if they are seriously advocating the above opinion.

That said, yes, the harder work he is doing at home is far more fun for him, he has a stunning medium trot, loves leg yielding and he went so much better in his second test which had more for him to think about. At the moment it is all about experience for him.

Itâ€™s also interesting that the first judge did not mark him so harshly for tension, when he did boil over and was actually disobedient so I guess the black and white opinions of some here donâ€™t really hold water in that regard. 

It would just have been nice to have some opinions without being misquoted, accused of being sore loser, my horse accused of disobedience in the test etc but hey ho thatâ€™s the internet for you!


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## Mule (18 December 2018)

The judges for affiliated dressage and riding club dressage are the same here so the only competition I've done without a qualified judge was at a riding school charity show. It was quite different in that the judge really wanted forward forward forward!
Because it was casual and the warmup was actually in the test arena, due to lack of space the judge gave a bit of commentary during the warm up. This was how I knew she liked people to ride really forward.

Ime at prelim the affiliated judge look for rhythm and balance. The unaffiliated judge wanted so much forward the  horses were being pushed out of their rhythm.

The beast was on his winter break so I rode one of the riding school horses. He was a big lumbering 18hh animal, who was very surprised to be asked to move that much. At least when he woke up he was capable of really moving. I felt sorry for the riders with short legged ponies frantically rushing around the arena ðŸ˜‰


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## splashgirl45 (18 December 2018)

i havent read all of the comments but the first comment by milliepops nailed it for me.   i spent 4 1/2 hours recently writing for a judge with firstly walk trot tests and then prelim.  the judge marked what she saw and there were some who were poking their nose but were happy, obedient and the riders(on the whole) made  good shapes and were accurate at the markers,,they scored better than the tense horses who were sometimes behind the vertical and opening their mouths and missing markers.  if there is a chance why not volunteer to write for a judge so you can see what the judges are looking for.  it really helped me to understand my marks....


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## paddi22 (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Thanks for the comments. I would say that if a horse has to be kicked to move forward, that isn't an obedient, responsive horse to me and certainly not enjoying its work. My boy was certainly enjoying himself, ears forward throughout the test, did everything that was asked of him, but was excited. I'm used to subjective judging on other horses and it has also worked in my favour in the past - and overall I'm massively happy with how he went. But I don't see that a horse being booted around an arena is particularly pleasing or should ever be the aim or considered worthy of high scores in dressage.
		
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If my horse had his ears forward in a test I'd know that he is not paying me a jot of attention and is focused on something else apart from me.  I would never take it as a sign of a happy horse, i'd take it as a sign of an unfocused horse in dressage.  

If he is showing tension then he isn't relaxed or enjoying his job, he's holding himself in some way that isn't harmonious or relaxing to watch (which is what the end goal should be).

With any of mine, the tense ones have always been marked harder than the kick along ones. The lazy ones might need more aids, but they tend to stay rythmic, balanced and relaxed looking in both their contact and way of going. On a prelim test i always find it much easier to get higher marks on a kick along cob than a floaty paced tense tb.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			If my horse had his ears forward in a test I'd know that he is not paying me a jot of attention and is focused on something else apart from me.  I would never take it as a sign of a happy horse, i'd take it as a sign of an unfocused horse in dressage. 

If he is showing tension then he isn't relaxed or enjoying his job, he's holding himself in some way that isn't harmonious or relaxing to watch (which is what the end goal should be).

With any of mine, the tense ones have always been marked harder than the kick along ones. The lazy ones might need more aids, but they tend to stay rythmic, balanced and relaxed looking in both their contact and way of going. On a prelim test i always find it much easier to get higher marks on a kick along cob than a floaty paced tense tb.
		
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Couldnâ€™t disagree with you more.

He clearly was focused as did absolutely everything he was asked, when he was asked. The collective comments remark on his obedience.


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## paddi22 (18 December 2018)

And surely at the prelim level the horse is at 99% of the other horses WILL be on the forehand, purely because they are starting their dressage journey and won't have the strength behind yet?  Judges won't crucify people for this at prelim.  As for your point about someone having to kick a horse. A lot of prelim riders will nag with the leg going around, but the horses stay rhythmic and steady in a contact. It's a clumsy aid, but to be honest i nearly prefer it over people fussing and pulling more forward horses into a 'contact'


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## paddi22 (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Couldnâ€™t disagree with you more.

He clearly was focused as did absolutely everything he was asked, when he was asked. The collective comments remark on his obedience.
		
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well i totally disagree with you. i think you look at any top dressage horses and you can see their ears aren't pointed forward. they are listening and focused on the rider.  If your horses ears are forward and very 'happy looking' its mind is elsewhere. When we trained with yogi bresner he said if the ears go forward then the horse is sticking his fingers up at you!

The video below is a calm relaxed horse who loves his job.. at no point do the ears ever lose focus on the rider


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			And surely at the prelim level the horse is at 99% of the other horses WILL be on the forehand, purely because they are starting their dressage journey and won't have the strength behind yet?  Judges won't crucify people for this at prelim.  As for your point about someone having to kick a horse. A lot of prelim riders will nag with the leg going around, but the horses stay rhythmic and steady in a contact. It's a clumsy aid, but to be honest i nearly prefer it over people fussing and pulling more forward horses into a 'contact'
		
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And a horse at the beginning of its dressage journey could not reasonably be expected to show some tension? You could say the above about any fault/incorrectness at Prelim level on that basis.

More often than that it is the horses on the forehand that are pulled into a contact and heavy on the hands. A tense horse needs riding forwards into the contact.


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## Goldenstar (18 December 2018)

Watching tense horses is horrible .
The aim of dressage is harmony and without harmony thereâ€™s nothing .
As the rider of an impressively tense but very talented horse I did my years at the coalface of tension .
I never got her cracked in the arena she would work well at home and at clinic but she knew what a horse trail was and that was that .
But boy did I learn from her I learned exactly what not to do how to forget learning how to ride tests and learn how to train I never had a tense horse I could not settle since .
Your horse is who he is enjoy him and seek to train him to be the best he can .
I know all about the frustration of seeing a dope on rope being squeezed and half carried round get a better mark but you just have to rise above it .


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Not forwards? They do at times flick back to listen to the rider, but often forwards as well. Just been looking at images of Valegro, ears often straight forward.


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## paddi22 (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			And a horse at the beginning of its dressage journey could not reasonably be expected to show some tension? You could say the above about any fault/incorrectness at Prelim level on that basis.

More often than that it is the horses on the forehand that are pulled into a contact and heavy on the hands. A tense horse needs riding forwards into the contact.
		
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But you are missing out on basic blocks of training with that line of thinking, you cannot ride a tense horse into a contact unless you have built up the strength behind and the suppleness through the back. You cannot ride a tense horse into a contact, because you have tension being held in the body. You don't ride any horse into a contacrt, you ride the hind end correctly and the front sorts itself out.


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## paddi22 (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Not forwards? They do at times flick back to listen to the rider, but often forwards as well. Just been looking at images of Valegro, ears often straight forward.
		
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in that example you posted, the ears aren't straight forward, they are pointing up. when you look at any video, they most they go is straight up. never forward


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			Watching tense horses is horrible .
The aim of dressage is harmony and without harmony thereâ€™s nothing .
As the rider of an impressively tense but very talented horse I did my years at the coalface of tension .
I never got her cracked in the arena she would work well at home and at clinic but she knew what a horse trail was and that was that .
But boy did I learn from her I learned exactly what not to do how to forget learning how to ride tests and learn how to train I never had a tense horse I could not settle since .
Your horse is who he is enjoy him and seek to train him to be the best he can .
I know all about the frustration of seeing a dope on rope being squeezed and half carried round get a better mark but you just have to rise above it .
		
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Sure, this is his second ever test in which he showed a huge improvement from his first. Think some of the comments here are a little hard on him. Certainly not worried this is going to be a long term issue, nor was the judge.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			in that example you posted, the ears aren't straight forward, they are pointing up. when you look at any video, they most they go is straight up. never forward
		
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I think we really are splitting hairs now.


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## paddi22 (18 December 2018)

no it sounds like you will improve each test with some mileage on him. And the comments sound like he has great potential. the tension is a hard one. I have one young one in who gets tense, and i usually spend the first 6 tests doing tiny shows and just riding them so they have fun going around a ring, with no pressure on them.  I just write off the marks because the long term goal of getting them happy in the ring is more important.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			But you are missing out on basic blocks of training with that line of thinking, you cannot ride a tense horse into a contact unless you have built up the strength behind and the suppleness through the back. You cannot ride a tense horse into a contact, because you have tension being held in the body. You don't ride any horse into a contacrt, you ride the hind end correctly and the front sorts itself out.
		
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Funny, thatâ€™s what the judge suggested needed to happen on a couple of the movements he was marked down for tension.


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## paddi22 (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			I think we really are splitting hairs now.
		
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we aren't really. you posted a picture showing a horse with its ears not forward.  Horses flick their ears back when they are focusing on their rider.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			no it sounds like you will improve each test with some mileage on him. And the comments sound like he has great potential. the tension is a hard one. I have one young one in who gets tense, and i usually spend the first 6 tests doing tiny shows and just riding them so they have fun going around a ring, with no pressure on them.  I just write off the marks because the long term goal of getting them happy in the ring is more important.
		
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Thank you, thatâ€™s what Iâ€™m trying to do to be honest. He had a first test in which he was hopelessly over excited and didnâ€™t behave, the second time he was much improved and very obedient but still showed some tension...but we are at the stage where he thinks going  to a comp is terribly exciting and the comments about him were very positive and indicated potential. 

Never had tension come up with other horses, and was slightly baffled at the scoring of horses not going particularly well...but as you say I have a lot to take from this and feeling hopeful for the future.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			we aren't really. you posted a picture showing a horse with its ears not forward.  Horses flick their ears back when they are focusing on their rider.
		
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They flick them back and forward, not constantly back


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## paddi22 (18 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			They flick them back and forward, not constantly back
		
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yes, they don't stick them forward and look happy.


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## Red-1 (18 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			Watching tense horses is horrible .
The aim of dressage is harmony and without harmony thereâ€™s nothing .
As the rider of an impressively tense but very talented horse I did my years at the coalface of tension .
I never got her cracked in the arena she would work well at home and at clinic but she knew what a horse trail was and that was that .
But boy did I learn from her I learned exactly what not to do how to forget learning how to ride tests and learn how to train I never had a tense horse I could not settle since .
Your horse is who he is enjoy him and seek to train him to be the best he can .
I know all about the frustration of seeing a dope on rope being squeezed and half carried round get a better mark but you just have to rise above it .
		
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Ah yes, I did omit the "tense because we are a a one day event" reason!!! Omitted because OP is at an unaffiliated prelim, but a silly omission anyway as I have had 2 horses who would be tense at an event. 

One would buck, the other be rather like OP's horse sounds. The bucking one would tend to score better as between the bucking she would take the contact and swing. That did sometimes seem the wrong way round, as the horse who actually did all the movements where they should be scored lower than the one bucking (same events albeit different sections) but I have to admit that the tense one (who became OH's horse) did not move correctly because of that tension in all movements rather than the mare who just wrote off a few movements each test.

I also learned from OH's horse, hence my answers on this thread about going back to the basics at home, and I too have had better results since.


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## paddi22 (18 December 2018)

ten tension is a tough one. I had a nightmare for years with one horse, he was just very 'thinky' and never looks fully relaxed in the ring.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			ten tension is a tough one. I had a nightmare for years with one horse, he was just very 'thinky' and never looks fully relaxed in the ring.
		
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I think he just enjoys himself a bit too much at the moment. Everything is exciting to him. I canâ€™t knock him though as he was so much improved from the first and did everything I asked this time instead of refusing to walk and other interesting freestyle moves.


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## paddi22 (18 December 2018)

thats brilliant he imprived so much by the second time, he will be probably be totally chilled after a few. I suppose its all so new to them.


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## oldie48 (18 December 2018)

OP, the late Bisto was a tense horse. he loved to work, was forward thinking and responsive. He was clever and athletic, had lovely paces but I struggled to keep him relaxed. I did some online dressage with him and we were slated, always beaten by ploddy cobs which were behind the leg and a bit on the forehand. TBH I was a bit pissed off too but going back to the scales of training the judging was correct. However, we did improve by working on getting him properly round and properly on the aids, it wasn't a quick job though. good luck with your horse, he sounds a lot of fun. I've learned loads from this forum, there are some very knowleable people who take the time to reply. I feel very lucky to have access to good help and advice and all for free! Have a lovely Christmas!


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## scats (18 December 2018)

OP- have you done any writing for judges?  Itâ€™s a fabulous way to gain a deeper understanding of what they are looking for. Also, donâ€™t forget, all judges are different.  You may well have found that a different judge would have marked your horse higher than those lazier, on the forehand types, but obviously that judge on that day felt that your horse was showing tension and it was impacting on the quality and accuracy of the test.

Sounds like you have a lovely horse who is going to do well, so donâ€™t get too worried about it.  Iâ€™ve had tests that have felt good and the marks havenâ€™t reflected it, but equally Iâ€™ve had tests that felt pretty dreadful to me but gained me some of my highest marks.  Itâ€™s a funny world!


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## Pinkvboots (18 December 2018)

I have 2 pure bred Arabs and they can often be tense for no apparent reason, one thing I have found one of my horses is really clever and since we have been doing more advanced stuff he has become more settled, it's almost like if you really make him think and use his brain more he relaxes, you might be better off starting some more difficult schooling to get him thinking, I tend to use lateral work as a diversion quite a bit if mine are being silly.


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## Goldenstar (18 December 2018)

Being short of a rib tension really glares at you when itâ€™s in an Arab .
OP just keep going out and doing tests always do two at each competition.work the horse as normal in the warm up then back off in the arena so itâ€™s a bit of rest in there .


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## DabDab (18 December 2018)

Interesting thread (and question). I have an, um, unusual horse, in part because of the muscular issues that he has. And when he's having an off day competing he can either be beach donkey lazy and thoroughly behind my leg, or like a charging rhino, who takes any straight line up or across the arena as an invitation to canter and is horribly tense through his top line whenever we are not circling or cantering. 

Scores wise, whichever off day version it is generally ends up in about the same ballpark between 58 and 60%. The bad and worse scores are in different places, but overall we end up with the same. So I would say, from my experience, judges don't have a preference, it just ends up being a numbers game as to the things you're penalised more or less for.


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## Melodra (18 December 2018)

Thanks guys. Some really helpful points and suggestions this evening!


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## BBP (19 December 2018)

I opened this this morning thinking it was going to be about Olympia as the dressage was yesterday, and often times at that level I do see tension being rewarded more than it should be, for reasons completely beyond my comprehension (in my very very non professional and irrelevant opinion!).

I went to a Tristan Tucker TRT demo a few weeks back and was interested to see two of the demo horses competing or working at an advanced level. Both stunning movers, beautiful horses but who were so tense and tight in their bodies and minds that they struggled to cope with every day life. (This is no criticism of their owner/riders as so many of us are in a similar position, horseâ€™s with boundless energy and power but without the right mental state to contain it all, and riders who are missing and crucial part of their training toolbox to help the horse to cope). I found it fascinating that these horses came in tacked up with every intention of providing a ridden demo, but as soon as Tristan got his hands on them he stripped the tack right off and each demo went no further than being worked in hand on the horse learning to control its own reaction to external stimuli. He felt they werenâ€™t mentally equipped to be ready to work on a circle on the lunge let alone under saddle. And yet these are horses who are working at PSG/Inter 1. (Iâ€™m sure someone who knows these horses will come along and correct me). But it really made me think about what horses do for us even when in a state of heightened tension, and how much more work I need to put in to ensure that my horse is mentally capable as well as physically talented.

I donâ€™t think I have in anyway helpfully answered your question, Iâ€™ve just rambled on a bit, but itâ€™s an interesting topic and Iâ€™ve enjoyed reading all replies (even ones that wound OP up I found to be interesting and informative as an outsider).


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## milliepops (19 December 2018)

Good post, BBP.

I think people don't always recognise tension when it is present, either. It's obvious when you have a horse that is wired, hot, muscles straining, eyes popping. But the quiet inner tension that just stews away is often overlooked IMO. It's something that has been on my mind lately too as current pressures at the yard are really affecting all the horses IMO, but no one else seems to have noticed.  Horses are such generous stoics sometimes.


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## oldie48 (19 December 2018)

BBP said:



			I opened this this morning thinking it was going to be about Olympia as the dressage was yesterday, and often times at that level I do see tension being rewarded more than it should be, for reasons completely beyond my comprehension (in my very very non professional and irrelevant opinion!).

I went to a Tristan Tucker TRT demo a few weeks back and was interested to see two of the demo horses competing or working at an advanced level. Both stunning movers, beautiful horses but who were so tense and tight in their bodies and minds that they struggled to cope with every day life. (This is no criticism of their owner/riders as so many of us are in a similar position, horseâ€™s with boundless energy and power but without the right mental state to contain it all, and riders who are missing and crucial part of their training toolbox to help the horse to cope). I found it fascinating that these horses came in tacked up with every intention of providing a ridden demo, but as soon as Tristan got his hands on them he stripped the tack right off and each demo went no further than being worked in hand on the horse learning to control its own reaction to external stimuli. He felt they werenâ€™t mentally equipped to be ready to work on a circle on the lunge let alone under saddle. And yet these are horses who are working at PSG/Inter 1. (Iâ€™m sure someone who knows these horses will come along and correct me). But it really made me think about what horses do for us even when in a state of heightened tension, and how much more work I need to put in to ensure that my horse is mentally capable as well as physically talented.

I donâ€™t think I have in anyway helpfully answered your question, Iâ€™ve just rambled on a bit, but itâ€™s an interesting topic and Iâ€™ve enjoyed reading all replies (even ones that wound OP up I found to be interesting and informative as an outsider).
		
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Further to this, I watched the freestyle on the red button and the most frequent comment was about tension/lack of relaxation and how it affected movements and it was certainly obvious to the onlooker. In some respects the sharp, hot horse is easier to ride because the engine is running but from my own experience I realise now how easy it is to start adapting your riding to accommodate the tense horse rather than tackle the real issue of helping the horse to relax in his work.


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## Ouch05 (19 December 2018)

I am AF but only novice level. I look at some of the horses in the warm up and &*^h myself they are such amazing movers and look gorgeous but tension and a little stressy. My little very un-flashy tb with small paces and not a lot of impulsion (yes you read that right) often score a lot better then them.

Why?  Because he has a great rhythm and is dead accurate. We get slammed for lack of impulsion/jump in the canter. He is not on the forehand like the horses you saw but I need a fair bit of leg. Our scores are consistent at AF 64-66 but when I go unAF they shoot up the 67-69 once or twice going higher. On the odd occasion he is tense my scores drop a lot 55-59.

Prelim is just starting out you can be off the vertical, behind the leg, on the forehand to an extant but they will only effect your collectives not every move if the move is completed, its accurate, the rhythm stays the same then the score for that movement will be higher. 

I have been beaten by many a lovely kick along, but then I have beaten some very smart nice moving horses.


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## ester (19 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			Good post, BBP.

I think people don't always recognise tension when it is present, either. It's obvious when you have a horse that is wired, hot, muscles straining, eyes popping. But the quiet inner tension that just stews away is often overlooked IMO. It's something that has been on my mind lately too as current pressures at the yard are really affecting all the horses IMO, but no one else seems to have noticed.  Horses are such generous stoics sometimes.
		
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and that tension can also =more shut down, not always bubbling over?


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## milliepops (19 December 2018)

ester said:



			and that tension can also =more shut down, not always bubbling over?
		
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Definitely, got 2 of those myself!


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## ihatework (19 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			Definitely, got 2 of those myself!
		
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I can add a giant welsh to that list! He is a right little (big) worrier but far too kind & polite to make a big show of it. When he flaps his bottom lip, which is his big brain tension indicator, all I want to do is give him a hug!


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## milliepops (19 December 2018)

ihatework said:



			I can add a giant welsh to that list! He is a right little (big) worrier but far too kind & polite to make a big show of it. When he flaps his bottom lip, which is his big brain tension indicator, all I want to do is give him a hug!
		
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sometimes you have to know them well enough to spot the signs, don't you. Poor flappy lip!  I used to call K "Kira-Tightface" because her bottom lip would get small and tight and although she appeared quiet, she was really in a big tangle inside.   Salty doesn't breathe when she's tense. I live for the soft nose snuffles that indicate both of them starting to relax


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## Denbob (19 December 2018)

I'm not a dressage expert by any stretch of the imagination am capable of riding a prelim test but not really to any great standard and no experience competing so it's really interesting reading peoples perspectives on rhythm and tension and the impact both can have on scoring. Thank you everyone!

Beastie is one to lose impulsion and back off when tense rather than overexerting and looking outwardly worried to an untrained eye, and while from an outside perspective he seems to be in a rhythm and consistent to ride it feels rather like a steam train with no steam carrying along on momentum rather than driving. Because he is slow and not rushing I have loads of time to set up for transitions and movements meaning we rode a pretty accurate test which is where  Interesting to hear where these sorts of horses fall in the mark band (the only test we did scored a 62% with a generous judge so smack bang where people have suggested!)


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## blitznbobs (21 December 2018)

I think the problem with tension is that it needs to be dealt with early... if a horse is tense at prelim it will be more tense at novice and struggle as it goes up the levels but Iâ€™ve never had a backward horse that doesnâ€™t get more forward as training continues ...tension is a harder problem to fix... Iâ€™ve never seen a truly backwards horse at Grand Prix but Iâ€™ve seen a lot of very tense ones so it is a problem that stays rather than gets trained out and hence why I think itâ€™s right that it is marked more harshly, dressage is about harmony and working together and tension is the absolute opposite of that.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

So while I appreciate the issues with tension...this still brings me back to the original question.

A horse being kicked is not harmonious. I see a lot of euphemisms such as â€œbehind the legâ€ but the reality is that force and discomfort are being used to carry out the movements. 

Still struggling to get my head around the fact that so many find this preferable to a rider sitting quietly on a novice horse excited by its surroundings. 

There is a huge difference between tension as a result of discomfort or stress...and horse in new surroundings excited by being surrounded by lots of new potential friends (being a horse basically) 

Ethically, regardless of dressage scoring, the latter has to be preferable.


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			So while I appreciate the issues with tension...this still brings me back to the original question.

A horse being kicked is not harmonious. I see a lot of euphemisms such as â€œbehind the legâ€ but the reality is that force and discomfort are being used to carry out the movements.

Still struggling to get my head around the fact that so many find this preferable to a rider sitting quietly on a novice horse excited by its surroundings.

There is a huge difference between tension as a result of discomfort or stress...and horse in new surroundings excited by being surrounded by lots of new potential friends (being a horse basically)

Ethically, regardless of dressage scoring, the latter has to be preferable.
		
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But there is a difference between a horse who is excited and putting too much effort in, as in this case they show more energy that is captured and used in the correct way, and a horse who is tense and becomes inverted, as you have said your horse suffers in his frame. 

My old horse would buck when excited, but would do so with back raised (not just hind legs LOL), within the pace, here, I will post a photo where he was slightly too alert (due to the fact I was cantering round whilst holding a fly curtain) and you can see that he is still in a correct form. The extra injection of energy is shown in a raised back, more engagement, but all in the correct frame.

I would say look at a video of your test, you should see circles of energy, as in if everything is correct there should be virtual circles of energy, energy recycling. 

In a tense horse that is not going correctly, the topline will be shortened and the legs may be higher but it is with a sharper, choppier feel, and that is absolutely incorrect.

BTW, this was a previously sharp and tense horse, undergoing training so he would not be scared of banners etc. So he would not be tense at competitions (but only after a LOT of hand/ground work to teach the "seek" reflex to softly seek the bit, even when under stress (in fact especially then).


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## be positive (21 December 2018)

You seem to want a black and white answer when in fact there are numerous shades of grey, the "excited novice" may be being forced and in discomfort by being held back to remain in the arena, it certainly will not be comfortable going in a way it is not used to, the lazy one may be ridden by a person with little experience who is kicking but with very little effect and the horse may well be oblivious, neither is correct and neither will make any meaningful progress until the basics are in place but on the day of the test the lazy one probably showed more correct movements than the tense one.

It all comes back to training, a horse that has a correct start, is relaxed and confident will be easier to train, a lazy horse will usually, with some good training, be able to show improvement fairly quickly and be able to move on to the next level without too much effort, whereas the tense one may revert if it finds new movements difficult and time needs to be spent ironing out the reason for their tension, if it is purely because they find new places exciting and there is generally no tension in their work then a few more outings should fix that to a degree and they should be ready to go out and get far better scores.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			But there is a difference between a horse who is excited and putting too much effort in, as in this case they show more energy that is captured and used in the correct way, and a horse who is tense and becomes inverted, as you have said your horse suffers in his frame.

My old horse would buck when excited, but would do so with back raised (not just hind legs LOL), within the pace, here, I will post a photo where he was slightly too alert (due to the fact I was cantering round whilst holding a fly curtain) and you can see that he is still in a correct form. The extra injection of energy is shown in a raised back, more engagement, but all in the correct frame.

I would say look at a video of your test, you should see circles of energy, as in if everything is correct there should be virtual circles of energy, energy recycling.

In a tense horse that is not going correctly, the topline will be shortened and the legs may be higher but it is with a sharper, choppier feel, and that is absolutely incorrect.

BTW, this was a previously sharp and tense horse, undergoing training so he would not be scared of banners etc. So he would not be tense at competitions (but only after a LOT of hand/ground work to teach the "seek" reflex to softly seek the bit, even when under stress (in fact especially then).
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Not sure about the distinction you are making there between tense and excited. If you watch my gelding out in the field with  the others, when excited the Arab in him means he will his natural reaction is to launch into a lengthened floating trot....but he wonâ€™t be long and low in his profile...he is up and arched...exactly his reaction at events. The tension in his frame derives from that excitement. That said, I absolutely see where you are coming from in terms of teaching him to seek the contact in stressful or exciting situations and this gives me food for though in terms of how I can work on that at home. 

Lovely horse btw.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

be positive said:



			You seem to want a black and white answer when in fact there are numerous shades of grey, the "excited novice" may be being forced and in discomfort by being held back to remain in the arena, it certainly will not be comfortable going in a way it is not used to, the lazy one may be ridden by a person with little experience who is kicking but with very little effect and the horse may well be oblivious, neither is correct and neither will make any meaningful progress until the basics are in place but on the day of the test the lazy one probably showed more correct movements than the tense one.

It all comes back to training, a horse that has a correct start, is relaxed and confident will be easier to train, a lazy horse will usually, with some good training, be able to show improvement fairly quickly and be able to move on to the next level without too much effort, whereas the tense one may revert if it finds new movements difficult and time needs to be spent ironing out the reason for their tension, if it is purely because they find new places exciting and there is generally no tension in their work then a few more outings should fix that to a degree and they should be ready to go out and get far better scores.
		
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I think Iâ€™m more querying some of the black and white answers some people gave. â€œKicking a horse is better than an excited horse displaying some tensionâ€ and a lot of justifications for kicking which again I struggle to get my head around...particularly when it is referred to as creating harmony. If you have to kick and force a horse at Prelim, how can that horse progress any further?

Your last comment reflects exactly the judgeâ€™s in the collectives...once he settles and relaxes he will receive good scores as shows some very promising work. The difference between his first and second time out hopefully means this will bear out.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			If you have to kick and force a horse at Prelim, how can that horse progress any further?
		
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because their prelim work is the basic introduction to dressage shows, test patterns and the first opportunity most horses and riders have to learn about the competition environment.  It doesn't necessarily tell you much about what they will go on to achieve in the future.

My established horse was an absolute kickalong at prelim. She was behind my leg because she was anxious, we could work through it well at arena hire and lessons where there was more time but her time at the lower levels was very much about her learning how to deal with the additional stresses of the competition arena.
She's now competing at Inter1 level training towards I2 and very forward thinking, the progress has been made in 2 broad ways - 1. getting her accustomed to new places, working in with strange horses and then doing the same work between the boards, and 2. at home, developing her reactions to my aids to make her more sensitive so that even when she is distracted by a new environment she knows to still react to me appropriately.

To say that a horse can't progress if it starts off being backward thinking would be to dismiss thousands of horses!  It's generally not that difficult to tune up a horse that is a bit slow to the aids if you choose to address it, and as someone mentioned before those horses are often the easier and quicker to then train up because you aren't fighting their buzziness when trying to teach something new.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			because their prelim work is the basic introduction to dressage shows, test patterns and the first opportunity most horses and riders have to learn about the competition environment.  It doesn't necessarily tell you much about what they will go on to achieve in the future.

My established horse was an absolute kickalong at prelim. She was behind my leg because she was anxious, we could work through it well at arena hire and lessons where there was more time but her time at the lower levels was very much about her learning how to deal with the additional stresses of the competition arena.
She's now competing at Inter1 level training towards I2 and very forward thinking, the progress has been made in 2 broad ways - 1. getting her accustomed to new places, working in with strange horses and then doing the same work between the boards, and 2. at home, developing her reactions to my aids to make her more sensitive so that even when she is distracted by a new environment she knows to still react to me appropriately.

To say that a horse can't progress if it starts off being backward thinking would be to dismiss thousands of horses!  It's generally not that difficult to tune up a horse that is a bit slow to the aids if you choose to address it, and as someone mentioned before those horses are often the easier and quicker to then train up because you aren't fighting their buzziness when trying to teach something new.
		
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You trained her not to be a kick-along...you didn't carry on kicking her though did you? That's not presumably how you taught her to go forward?

As I say at a loss as to anyone who is happy kicking a horse. Totally unethical to me.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			because their prelim work is the basic introduction to dressage shows, test patterns and the first opportunity most horses and riders have to learn about the competition environment.  It doesn't necessarily tell you much about what they will go on to achieve in the future.

My established horse was an absolute kickalong at prelim. She was behind my leg because she was anxious, we could work through it well at arena hire and lessons where there was more time but her time at the lower levels was very much about her learning how to deal with the additional stresses of the competition arena.
She's now competing at Inter1 level training towards I2 and very forward thinking, the progress has been made in 2 broad ways - 1. getting her accustomed to new places, working in with strange horses and then doing the same work between the boards, and 2. at home, developing her reactions to my aids to make her more sensitive so that even when she is distracted by a new environment she knows to still react to me appropriately.

To say that a horse can't progress if it starts off being backward thinking would be to dismiss thousands of horses!  It's generally not that difficult to tune up a horse that is a bit slow to the aids if you choose to address it, and as someone mentioned before those horses are often the easier and quicker to then train up because you aren't fighting their buzziness when trying to teach something new.
		
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Further, you make the justification for kicking at Prelim..but no similar allowance for over excitement in a novice horse at Prelim? A novice horse is likely to settle with experience...I actually think it's quite difficult to teach a horse that really does not want to go forward once it has been totally desensitised to the leg aids with kicking.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Further, you make the justification for kicking at Prelim..but no similar allowance for over excitement in a novice horse at Prelim? A novice horse is likely to settle with experience...I actually think it's quite difficult to teach a horse that really does not want to go forward once it has been totally desensitised to the leg aids with kicking.
		
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well i beg to differ, it takes mental discipline and lots of repetition but you can bet your life that plenty of horses that are having success at higher levels of dressage started off being behind the leg and needing to learn to be more sensitive.

It's not my place to justify or make allowances, that's between the rider and the judge.  I have made it my place to train my horses though, and I know because I've done it many times over, that they can be taught to respond better to the aids even when they have been totally spoilt by past experiences. You just have to be a little more patient, and a little more persistent.

I think your refusal to see anyone else's point of view on this possibly stems from a lack of experience of retraining horses?  It's hard to imagine what is possible if you have limited experience of these types of horses.  For many people, it's useful to take the horses out to low level shows as stepping stones to get them a bit more educated, more confident, etc and ready to move on.   you are not always seeing the finished article when you watch these competitions.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			well i beg to differ, it takes mental discipline and lots of repetition but you can bet your life that plenty of horses that are having success at higher levels of dressage started off being behind the leg and needing to learn to be more sensitive.

It's not my place to justify or make allowances, that's between the rider and the judge.  I have made it my place to train my horses though, and I know because I've done it many times over, that they can be taught to respond better to the aids even when they have been totally spoilt by past experiences. You just have to be a little more patient, and a little more persistent.

I think your refusal to see anyone else's point of view on this possibly stems from a lack of experience of retraining horses?  It's hard to imagine what is possible if you have limited experience of these types of horses.  For many people, it's useful to take the horses out to low level shows as stepping stones to get them a bit more educated, more confident, etc and ready to move on.   you are not always seeing the finished article when you watch these competitions.
		
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You beg to differ in that you think kicking a horse is ethical?

I did not at any stage say that a horse behind the leg could not progress. I said it wouldn't get there by continuous kicking.

I'm also not sure why you and some others feel the need to get so personal either. From what I've been told I understand there is a clique with you, Cortez and a few others and a reputation for bullying new members you disagree with, but if you would care to read back you will see I have been polite at all times, I have thanked those who have given a constructive viewpoint and I have politely stated where I have disagreed. I strongly disagree that it is ok to kick a horse; if you're kicking your horse you are forcing it through discomfort. Fact.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			well i beg to differ, it takes mental discipline and lots of repetition but you can bet your life that plenty of horses that are having success at higher levels of dressage started off being behind the leg and needing to learn to be more sensitive.

It's not my place to justify or make allowances, that's between the rider and the judge.  I have made it my place to train my horses though, and I know because I've done it many times over, that they can be taught to respond better to the aids even when they have been totally spoilt by past experiences. You just have to be a little more patient, and a little more persistent.

I think your refusal to see anyone else's point of view on this possibly stems from a lack of experience of retraining horses?  It's hard to imagine what is possible if you have limited experience of these types of horses.  For many people, it's useful to take the horses out to low level shows as stepping stones to get them a bit more educated, more confident, etc and ready to move on.   you are not always seeing the finished article when you watch these competitions.
		
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Further, I have plenty of experience in retraining horses thank you. Again, why the need to get so personal? I pity your horse if you train it by kicking and force.

I've actually been working all summer with a horse "behind the leg" written off as lazy. He didn't want to go forward, didn't enjoy his work. Doing our research it turned out he had initially been broken by an individual known to be rough...achieving "going on the bit" by sawing at the mouth. We believe that the horse was frightened of being blocked by the hand. He was totally desensitised to the leg and schooling whip, you couldn't get a trot out of him, let alone a canter. We have spent painstaking months teaching that he can go forward without fear or force, or nagging him and making it uncomfortable for him by nagging when he didn't go forward. We didn't do it by fear. We used positive reward and praise. We made sessions fun, doing things he enjoys like walk to canter. When he got it right we would end the session and take him for a stretch or a hack. He is now responsive straight off the leg, and more importantly is happy in his work.

You don't need to kick a horse.


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## ester (21 December 2018)

ihatework said:



			I can add a giant welsh to that list! He is a right little (big) worrier but far too kind & polite to make a big show of it. When he flaps his bottom lip, which is his big brain tension indicator, all I want to do is give him a hug!
		
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Much smaller welsh lifts his left nostril 

I love that Kira is getting pity, given how she was at the start!


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			You beg to differ in that you think kicking a horse is ethical?

I did not at any stage say that a horse behind the leg could not progress. I said it wouldn't get there by continuous kicking.

I'm also not sure why you and some others feel the need to get so personal either. From what I've been told I understand there is a clique with you, Cortez and a few others and a reputation for bullying new members you disagree with, but if you would care to read back you will see I have been polite at all times, I have thanked those who have given a constructive viewpoint and I have politely stated where I have disagreed. I strongly disagree that it is ok to kick a horse; if you're kicking your horse you are forcing it through discomfort. Fact.
		
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No, I didn't agree with your assertion that it was difficult to retrain a horse to the leg aid.  It's not always a quick turnaround, but it's generally not difficult.

I think force is a bit of a grey area to discuss, to me there are no absolutes with training horses - a fresh or tense horse being restrained to get round a dressage test is arguably being forced via discomfort to do that when its behaviour is demonstrating that it would prefer not to do that. 

I'm not getting personal, I just said that your responses appear to stem from a bit of a simplistic understanding of training or retraining horses.  Many people who have ridden and trained lots of different horses have posted on this thread, and most have disagreed with the black and white viewpoint that you keep reiterating.

Ticked by the idea of cortez and I being in a clique, we've disagreed over plenty of things over the years, no need to dream up conspiracy theories just because we agree in many aspects at the same time


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

ester said:



			Much smaller welsh lifts his left nostril 

I love that Kira is getting pity, given how she was at the start!
		
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yes, poor, poor Kira   She's living a very unfortunate existence now, clearly


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## ester (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			but if you would care to read back you will see I have been polite at all times
		
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I don't consider being told I am not reading posts thoroughly when I am particularly polite, just so you know.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

ester said:



			I don't consider being told I am not reading posts thoroughly when I am particularly polite, just so you know.
		
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neither do I find it polite to be told you pity my horse, OP, when you don't even know either of us, nor for you to pull the bullying card out of thin air just because some people have disagreed with you and spent time and effort explaining their position.  
This is a welcoming group, we enjoy meaty discussions and get along well with all posters, old and new.  it seems a bit strange to start a discussion and then start kicking off when people don't agree with your viewpoint.


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## Denbob (21 December 2018)

How do you train a horse that's ignoring aids to move forward without an escalation of leg aids? Bearing in mind that I have worked with several instructors and am not blocking with my hands, he is not suffering with any physical issues and tack has been addressed. At home he is light, responsive and forward, in the same way you say at home your horse is not tense in his frame but at the only competitions we have been too Denzel finds it stressful and responds by withdrawing into himself whereas your boy becomes tense. Different issues that arise in a competition situation, but both can be helped with experience of being out and about.

I'm not advocating for constantly pony club booting that's very different but I was always taught 'squeeze, kick, tap'  to encourage response to the lighter aids first, and for a horse like mine who needs experience at competitions to avoid switching off to subtleties, much like you have said your horse needs experience to stop being tense, how are they expected to learn to cope without going out and competing and perhaps needing encouragement in the form of an occasional kick to get round the test without learning that they can stumble round and not maintain a rhythm or fall out of gait without being asked to transition. I'd much prefer one sharp aid on a backward horse than nagging and squeezing constantly more 'ethically'

As a relatively new member I feel the need to stick my nose in and say _nobody_ on this forum has ever made me feel unwelcome, bullied, or been unpleasant even if we have disagreed on things. From a non-dressage perspective all comments have appeared to me clear, and addressing what appeared to be your question in the original post about why tension would be marked down in a test situation.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			No, I didn't agree with your assertion that it was difficult to retrain a horse to the leg aid.  It's not always a quick turnaround, but it's generally not difficult.

I think force is a bit of a grey area to discuss, to me there are no absolutes with training horses - a fresh or tense horse being restrained to get round a dressage test is arguably being forced via discomfort to do that when its behaviour is demonstrating that it would prefer not to do that.

I'm not getting personal, I just said that your responses appear to stem from a bit of a simplistic understanding of training or retraining horses.  Many people who have ridden and trained lots of different horses have posted on this thread, and most have disagreed with the black and white viewpoint that you keep reiterating.

Ticked by the idea of cortez and I being in a clique, we've disagreed over plenty of things over the years, no need to dream up conspiracy theories just because we agree in many aspects at the same time 

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Funny that there are messages in my inbox about it one "they'll argue black is white to the extent that now kicking a horse is harmony"

We were discussing kicking. My OP discusses kicking. You have justified it.

Black and white? Hilarious, it is you and your clique that give black and white answers to back each other up, to the extent that kicking a horse around an arena is "harmonious dressage" You're a joke, frankly. I actually asked the question if a horse that was tense due to over excitement was so much worse than a horse being forced around the ring by its rider. You and your friends said it was. Black and white. I said I saw both as different issues but both still were issues and I didn't feel that a horse being forced in that way should be achieving high dressage scores. Dressage is not about force.

If you look the more experienced posters (and not only those claiming to be experienced) they have tended to err on the side that both are problems that need to be addressed, but an excitable novice horse is likely to settle with experience. They have not justified kicking a horse and you will struggle to find any decent trainer that agrees with you on that.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			neither do I find it polite to be told you pity my horse, OP, when you don't even know either of us, nor for you to pull the bullying card out of thin air just because some people have disagreed with you and spent time and effort explaining their position. 
This is a welcoming group, we enjoy meaty discussions and get along well with all posters, old and new.  it seems a bit strange to start a discussion and then start kicking off when people don't agree with your viewpoint.
		
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If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

I pity any horse kicked and forced.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Denzel Bells said:



			How do you train a horse that's ignoring aids to move forward without an escalation of leg aids? Bearing in mind that I have worked with several instructors and am not blocking with my hands, he is not suffering with any physical issues and tack has been addressed. At home he is light, responsive and forward, in the same way you say at home your horse is not tense in his frame but at the only competitions we have been too Denzel finds it stressful and responds by withdrawing into himself whereas your boy becomes tense. Different issues that arise in a competition situation, but both can be helped with experience of being out and about.

I'm not advocating for constantly pony club booting that's very different but I was always taught 'squeeze, kick, tap'  to encourage response to the lighter aids first, and for a horse like mine who needs experience at competitions to avoid switching off to subtleties, much like you have said your horse needs experience to stop being tense, how are they expected to learn to cope without going out and competing and perhaps needing encouragement in the form of an occasional kick to get round the test without learning that they can stumble round and not maintain a rhythm or fall out of gait without being asked to transition. I'd much prefer one sharp aid on a backward horse than nagging and squeezing constantly more 'ethically'

As a relatively new member I feel the need to stick my nose in and say _nobody_ on this forum has ever made me feel unwelcome, bullied, or been unpleasant even if we have disagreed on things. From a non-dressage perspective all comments have appeared to me clear, and addressing what appeared to be your question in the original post about why tension would be marked down in a test situation.
		
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I've explained above how we did it with our horse, who was absolutely numb to the leg and schooling whip. My trainer has an absolute aversion to kicking and nagging and instead focuses on positive reinforcement. That's not to say you can't reinforce a leg aid, but continuous kicking is just going to desensitise the horse.

I've said around a million times that the comments regarding tension were mostly constructive. But what I don't understand is those advocating kicking.


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## ihatework (21 December 2018)

Denzel Bells said:



			How do you train a horse that's ignoring aids to move forward without an escalation of leg aids? Bearing in mind that I have worked with several instructors and am not blocking with my hands, he is not suffering with any physical issues and tack has been addressed. At home he is light, responsive and forward, in the same way you say at home your horse is not tense in his frame but at the only competitions we have been too Denzel finds it stressful and responds by withdrawing into himself whereas your boy becomes tense. Different issues that arise in a competition situation, but both can be helped with experience of being out and about.
		
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Mine would be a little like yours in that he would be inclined to just withdraw into himself a bit and drop off the leg. Otherwise he behaves immaculately so it would be all too easy to overlook.

I used a lot of non-competitive outings for him for 6 months, most weeks. A mix of RC group clinics, private away lessons but sharing school, test riding practice and also the most helpful was a local BD venue who does â€˜ride in sessionsâ€™, so they have an hour slot, their 3 arenas open and up to 15 people sharing.


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Melodra, you have been very far from polite to quite a lot of people. No one has been rude to you: not agreeing with you is not rudeness it is simply having a different view. No one is advocating kicking horses, kicking is not good riding. Perhaps you have missed the more pertinent point that tension is viewed as a greater problem than tension, which would appear to be your difficulty in understanding in the original question.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

lol it sounds like you are the one in the clique then OP! 

You objected strongly to having words put in your mouth earlier, do me the kindness of not doing the same? If you believe I have said that kicking a horse round an arena his harmonious, please find the post and quote it.  I am not remotely bothered if you think I'm a joke, if that's the level of discussion you have descended to then I think it says more about you than me tbh


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## ester (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

I pity any horse kicked and forced.
		
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I think MP can take it's just best not to claim you are unfailing polite while doing the dishing...

I do love it when PMs that may or may not exist get brought into on board conversations.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

ester said:



			I think MP can take it's just best not to claim you are unfailing polite while doing the dishing...

I do love it when PMs that may or may not exist get brought into on board conversations.
		
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Don't worry Ester, you were given a specific mention


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Melodra, you have been very far from polite to quite a lot of people. No one has been rude to you: not agreeing with you is not rudeness it is simply having a different view. No one is advocating kicking horses, kicking is not good riding. Perhaps you have missed the more pertinent point that tension is viewed as a greater problem than tension, which would appear to be your difficulty in understanding in the original question.
		
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And you are known for bullying new members. You've forced people off these forums. Seriously upset people.


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Really? First I've heard of it. Can you show me where I've bullied you please?


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			lol it sounds like you are the one in the clique then OP! 

You objected strongly to having words put in your mouth earlier, do me the kindness of not doing the same? If you believe I have said that kicking a horse round an arena his harmonious, please find the post and quote it.  I am not remotely bothered if you think I'm a joke, if that's the level of discussion you have descended to then I think it says more about you than me tbh 

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I asked you specifically about kicking. I would take a look at your response.


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## ester (21 December 2018)

Charm personified.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Really? First I've heard of it. Can you show me where I've bullied you please?
		
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Not me. You've bullied others, to the extent of causing serious upset and making them feel that they can't post here. You are known for it apparently.


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## J_sarahd (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			And you are known for bullying new members. You've forced people off these forums. Seriously upset people.
		
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I am a new member and I have had conversations and discussions with all these people you have said are in a clique and despite us not always agreeing on things, I have never felt bullied by any of them. But perhaps the difference is I appreciate and accept the viewpoints of people who are clearly a lot more experienced than I am.


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## ester (21 December 2018)

What an extraordinary amount of information and PMs in the space of 5 days, impressed.


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## Tiddlypom (21 December 2018)

It's been an interesting thread, with lots of food for thought. Excessive tension in dressage is a bug bear of mine.

I wondered why the OP decided to troll under a new username, then it became clear. So that they could rubbish many of the more knowledgable regular posters.

But thanks anyway, most peeps, for giving so much insight into real issues in training, and suggestions on how to deal with them.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

J_sarahd said:



			I am a new member and I have had conversations and discussions with all these people you have said are in a clique and despite us not always agreeing on things, I have never felt bullied by any of them. But perhaps the difference is I appreciate and accept the viewpoints of people who are clearly a lot more experienced than I am.
		
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Exactly. Another personal comment. You know nothing of my experience, but do carry on with your cliquey little bullying.

The difference is the people they've bullied don't post here anymore.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			It's been an interesting thread, with lots of food for thought. Excessive tension in dressage is a bug bear of mine.

I wondered why the OP decided to troll under a new username, then it became clear. So that they could rubbish many of the more knowledgable regular posters.

But thanks anyway, most peeps, for giving so much insight into real issues in training, and suggestions on how to deal with them.
		
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I've thanked those that gave the real insights 

And once again you address one side of my question. I asked about tension die to excitement in a novice horse vs kicking a horse around an arena, but don't let that get in the way of defending your mates.


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## J_sarahd (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Exactly. Another personal comment. You know nothing of my experience, but do carry on with your cliquey little bullying.

The difference is the people they've bullied don't post here anymore.
		
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How am I bullying?? These people are giving their experiences and opinions on your question. You may not agree with what theyâ€™re saying, but you need to learn to accept their points of view. Or at the very least agree to disagree graciously. Iâ€™ve never once seen any of these people bullying anyone.


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Not me. You've bullied others, to the extent of causing serious upset and making them feel that they can't post here. You are known for it apparently.
		
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Well, nobody's ever complained before which would be the usual route if anyone was feeling abused. Unless you are perhaps a returning "victim"? 

To return to your point: there are no "insights" because the rules of dressage, and the training that judges receive, do not correspond with the views that you so firmly hold. Sorry about that.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

J_sarahd said:



			How am I bullying?? These people are giving their experiences and opinions on your question. You may not agree with what theyâ€™re saying, but you need to learn to accept their points of view. Or at the very least agree to disagree graciously. Iâ€™ve never once seen any of these people bullying anyone.
		
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Wtf are you talking about? Have you missed the many comments in which I have thanked...and often agreed with people.

The issue here seems to be me disagreeing with kicking not my thoughts on tension.

Do you agree with kicking a horse?


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Well, nobody's ever complained before which would be the usual route if anyone was feeling abused. Unless you are perhaps a returning "victim"?

To return to your point: there are no "insights" because the rules of dressage, and the training that judges receive, do not correspond with the views that you so firmly hold. Sorry about that.
		
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Absolute rubbish. You'll struggle to find a judge, trainer or decent rider that advocates kicking.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			I asked you specifically about kicking. I would take a look at your response.
		
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I know what i have contributed to this thread, so I'll go with the suggestion that I am innocent until proven guilty, ta... if you can prove it then I'll put my hands up 



Tiddlypom said:



			I wondered why the OP decided to troll under a new username, then it became clear. So that they could rubbish many of the more knowledgable regular posters.
		
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Oooh do tell, TP... this thread does have troll written all over it tbh!


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## J_sarahd (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Wtf are you talking about? Have you missed the many comments in which I have thanked...and often agreed with people.

The issue here seems to be me disagreeing with kicking not my thoughts on tension.

Do you agree with kicking a horse?
		
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From what Iâ€™ve noticed they seem to be answers that fit into your agenda or are written by people who arenâ€™t in this â€œcliqueâ€ you seem to be banging on about. From what Iâ€™ve seen, nobody has advocated kicking a horse. Theyâ€™ve simply said that sometimes the more backwards horses are easier to train up to higher levels.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Wtf are you talking about? Have you missed the many comments in which I have thanked...and often agreed with people.

The issue here seems to be me disagreeing with kicking not my thoughts on tension.

Do you agree with kicking a horse?
		
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only you have made this about kicking a horse, which we have all said is undesirable.

The rest of us are a bit bemused that you on the one hand thank people for their posts, then slate them 2 pages later, and appear not to be able to accept that other people hold viewpoints different to your own. It's a bit hard to work out exactly what you want to get out of HHO, unless you just wanted 20 people to chime in like sheep, "Baaaaaaaaaaa, tension good, lazy horse bad"


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Absolute rubbish. You'll struggle to find a judge, trainer or decent rider that advocates kicking.
		
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*NOBODY, *at any time, has *advocated* kicking. What several people, quite experienced, and in some cases actual listed judges, have tried to tell you is that in many instances a horse exhibiting tension will be marked more severely than lack of forwardness resulting in a less experienced rider perhaps overusing their legs in a test.


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## blitznbobs (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			So while I appreciate the issues with tension...this still brings me back to the original question.

A horse being kicked is not harmonious. I see a lot of euphemisms such as â€œbehind the legâ€ but the reality is that force and discomfort are being used to carry out the movements.

Still struggling to get my head around the fact that so many find this preferable to a rider sitting quietly on a novice horse excited by its surroundings.

There is a huge difference between tension as a result of discomfort or stress...and horse in new surroundings excited by being surrounded by lots of new potential friends (being a horse basically)

Ethically, regardless of dressage scoring, the latter has to be preferable.
		
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But tension is harder to train out therefore is a bigger problem ... it takes me a couple of sessions to train out backwards thinking - I have horses at medium that, not for want of trying, get tense sometimes... which is why I changed my method of training - so that the first lesson that should be taught to any horse is to relax in any situation - itâ€™s the first thing ... itâ€™s taught badly but it shouldnâ€™t be - watch some Tristan tucker lessons he explains it better than anyone Iâ€™ve seen - tension is the absolute enemy of dressage - laziness is just a minor schooling error which can be fixed unless there is something g wrong with the horse - kicking would lower your riding mark but dressage is mainly judged on the horses way of going and only one collective is for your input. And itâ€™s usually not a x2 mark like the other collectives


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			I know what i have contributed to this thread, so I'll go with the suggestion that I am innocent until proven guilty, ta... if you can prove it then I'll put my hands up 




Oooh do tell, TP... this thread does have troll written all over it tbh!
		
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"I disagree with you so you are a troll" Lol.

Bored now and things to do. I'll go back to training my horses with kindness. You can go back to kicking if you wish.

But the fact there is now zero point now in interacting with a witches coven that launches into personal attacks on my experience (and the horse) because they believe kicking their own horse is acceptable, really bears up what is said in those PMs.

Once again, thanks to those who offered a balanced point of view, constructive advice about settling my boy at events going forward and also - encouragement. It is much appreciated.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

twisting peoples words and then flouncing when it gets noticed is not really a grown up way to behave, on a forum or anywhere else, that's why you seem like a troll  

If you'd like to return to civilised discussions then I'm sure we'll all be here to welcome you back, it is christmas after all


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## ester (21 December 2018)

I feel like I have stepped into some sort of alternate universe, 

I think you're safe on the proof situation at least MP. I guess as a baiting thread it worked quite well but I have enjoyed reading everyone's inputs, not just the ones I would likely agree with.


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			But tension is harder to train out therefore is a bigger problem ... it takes me a couple of sessions to train out backwards thinking - I have horses at medium that, not for want of trying, get tense sometimes... which is why I changed my method of training - so that the first lesson that should be taught to any horse is to relax in any situation - itâ€™s the first thing ... itâ€™s taught badly but it shouldnâ€™t be - watch some Tristan tucker lessons he explains it better than anyone Iâ€™ve seen - tension is the absolute enemy of dressage - laziness is just a minor schooling error which can be fixed unless there is something g wrong with the horse - kicking would lower your riding mark but dressage is mainly judged on the horses way of going and only one collective is for your input. And itâ€™s usually not a x2 mark like the other collectives
		
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Exactly, very well put. Calm - forward - straight, in that order, and everything else flows from that.

Ooh, and OP you could use a bit of calm yourself.


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## Ouch05 (21 December 2018)

May I just add that you don't know the story behind that 'kick' along horse or rider. Just as the judge does not know that your horse was 'excited' she just saw tension.

Just for an example I know of a few people that want to go out and have a go at dressage but they are normally happy hackers (I hate that phase as IMO I find hacking quite stressful on my TB so I think they are very brave people) anyway they have a horse that loves to hack forward going and happy. They decided to give DR a go they don't have a school at home either to train in. The horse is not keen on schooling any way so they go to do a test. They have fun and enjoy it, its hard work on a horse that is now 'behind the leg' but guess what they had a ball doing something different for once.

I hate SJ I ride like an idiot I am all flappy legs and chicken arms both are completely ineffective aids that he total ignores. But guess what when I have finished a round I am grinning from ear to ear.  Also my boy warms up like a dream forward and responsive but I go in the arena and I tense up and find that I probable kick to much to try to get that little bit more out of him but its actually not even require.

So yes kicking a horse along is not pretty and does match the ideal and so what they scored well this time it is meant to be fun and not just at the lower levels, at all levels. These people may not want to go higher then intro or prelim and are just happy to be out doing something different or they could be at the start of their journey on a new horse, they could have scared themselves on a previous sharp horse and just wanted something nice and in their eyes safe to go to a couple of local shows on and have fun they have no interest in going higher and go back to hacking the next day where their horse is back to doing what it loves and is forward and responsive again.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			only you have made this about kicking a horse, which we have all said is undesirable.

The rest of us are a bit bemused that you on the one hand thank people for their posts, then slate them 2 pages later, and appear not to be able to accept that other people hold viewpoints different to your own. It's a bit hard to work out exactly what you want to get out of HHO, unless you just wanted 20 people to chime in like sheep, "Baaaaaaaaaaa, tension good, lazy horse bad"[/

I'll just address that last point. The people I thanked, I thanked. I didn't go on to slate them later, even if I disagreed.The people who advocated kicking as acceptable, I politely disagreed with until they became rude and personal. You in particular launched into a personal attack.

"The rest of us" is not everyone on this forum. I received some lovely, constructive and yet encouraging comments. I do think some of you may view this forum as way of presenting an expert image, but your comments give you away.

I never said tension is good and laziness is bad. Why lie about it? That is just awful. I specifically referred in my OP to horses being kicked around an arena. Yes, I did make it about kicking, it was one half of what the post was about. 

I really have too much to do now and have to go, but looking at your bitchy personal attacks above, a new member would think twice before posting and daring to disagree. You are intolerant to different viewpoints yourself, laughable that you accuse me of this.

You say you don't bully? Have a read back. Hoisted by your own petards.
		
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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Yes I still say there is no bullying on this thread. 
I would look you in the eye and say that.
The only person resorting to personal attacks is you, every other thread on this post has been measured, constructive, helpful, informative, probing, challenging at times but all civilised and adding to the debate. 

It's interesting that your own run down of the "facts" above is inconsistent, you thanked me, at one point you reminded me that you had done so, and then look what happened!    if that's not slating then I am not sure what is! no matter, enjoy your horses, Merry Christmas


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			Yes I still say there is no bullying on this thread.
I would look you in the eye and say that.
The only person resorting to personal attacks is you, every other thread on this post has been measured, constructive, helpful, informative, probing, challenging at times but all civilised and adding to the debate.

It's interesting that your own run down of the "facts" above is inconsistent, you thanked me, at one point you reminded me that you had done so, and then look what happened!    if that's not slating then I am not sure what is! no matter, enjoy your horses, Merry Christmas 

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I liked your first couple of comments which were balanced and informative in terms of scoring...you then descended into personal attacks when I brought up the second part of my post which was about kicking an unresponsive horse and whether this was really the aim of dressage and disagreed with your friends on that. It's interesting that I have been at pains to state on multiple occasions that I agreed with the comments on tension, but was finding it hard to understand that so many should view kicking as presenting in any way a harmonious picture - and yes this was said further back. I am then accused of not accepting other viewpoints. Bizarre.

Hey ho. Merry Christmas.


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## Mule (21 December 2018)

I think we're all constantly learning. I know that I never ride as well at shows than I do at home.
I went through a period of the beast being very behind the leg at shows. This was caused by my tension. I wasn't letting my hips move with him because my muscles were tight. So in this case a tense rider resulted in a backward thinking horse.

Occasionally the beast's walk becomes lateral; it's almost always due to me becoming tense. If I turn myself to jelly he walks beautifully.

I think a lot of undesirable horse behaviour is a result of rider inexperience but we are all working to improve ourselves. I think there's bound to be a lot  of inexperienced riders at a  prelim show, mabey that was a reason for the backward horses the op saw.


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## blitznbobs (21 December 2018)

I think the thing to remember is dressage is a sport not a showing class there are a set of arbitrary rules made up and whether you agree with them or not doesnâ€™t matter... thems the rules and if you donâ€™t like them donâ€™t play or make up your own new sport.


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## blitznbobs (21 December 2018)

Double post


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			I think the thing to remember is dressage is a sport not a showing class there are a set of arbitrary rules made up and whether you agree with them or not doesnâ€™t matter... thems the rules and if you donâ€™t like them donâ€™t play or make up your own new sport.
		
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To be fair the requirements of dressage don't sit alongside kicking and forcing a horse do they? Kind of my point really.


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## shortstuff99 (21 December 2018)

What was it you were hoping to achieve from this post OP? Clearly no-one here has responded in the way you wanted them too. Is everybody that has posted wrong? Probably not, which should start to make you think that perhaps tension (from excitement or not) is a major major fault in dressage less so than a horse behind the leg. HOWEVER if a rider is being abusive to the horse then that is a different story. Your posts seem to have changed the other competitors horses from being lazy and kind of on the forehand to basically being abused around an arena.


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## Mule (21 December 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			I think the thing to remember is dressage is a sport not a showing class there are a set of arbitrary rules made up and whether you agree with them or not doesnâ€™t matter... thems the rules and if you donâ€™t like them donâ€™t play or make up your own new sport.
		
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It's a difficult sport too. When I event I find showjumping and cross country much easier, but the dressage is actually my favourite part.
It might sound strange but I find a balanced transition more of a buzz than xc jumping


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## shortstuff99 (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			To be fair the requirements of dressage don't sit alongside kicking and forcing a horse do they? Kind of my point really.
		
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Actually most of the requirements of dressage are to do with the movements and not the rider. A bad rider will be marked down in the collectives unless the movement is being affected.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

OP, if your horse is tense in the arena why don't you view that making him comply with your request could also be seen as forceful?
Why do you only see force on the other side of your equation?


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

shortstuff99 said:



			Actually most of the requirements of dressage are to do with the movements and not the rider. A bad rider will be marked down in the collectives unless the movement is being affected.
		
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Hence the reason we can have para dressage  if you judged those riders solely for the way they sat or applied the aids vs the classical ideal then the sport would fall flat on its face. Happily the judges look beyond that to see and score some fantastic work the horses produce.


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## blitznbobs (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			To be fair the requirements of dressage don't sit alongside kicking and forcing a horse do they? Kind of my point really.
		
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No never said they did but that is a problem with the rider - dressage judges in the main, the horses way of going and ridability... not the riders ability to ride


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			I think the problem with tension is that it needs to be dealt with early... if a horse is tense at prelim it will be more tense at novice and struggle as it goes up the levels but Iâ€™ve never had a backward horse that doesnâ€™t get more forward as training continues ...tension is a harder problem to fix... Iâ€™ve never seen a truly backwards horse at Grand Prix but Iâ€™ve seen a lot of very tense ones so it is a problem that stays rather than gets trained out and hence why I think itâ€™s right that it is marked more harshly, dressage is about harmony and working together and tension is the absolute opposite of that.
		
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yeah totally agree. one of my little mares is starting her dressage career and shows tension. Later on i ended up writing for the judge who marked us afterwards and she advised that for lower unaffiliated levels I would be better off not even trying to ride the moves correctly on her (ie to miss markers if the horse needs more times between transition etc) and make it as easy and fun for her as possible.  She said do anything needed to get the horse happy and relaxed, even if it looks awful and loses marks. She said she sees so many horses going up the levels, and if they start tense at prelim and don't solve that, then the tension compounds as they move up the levels.

I really took this on board as I had three years of tense comments on another horse. So for the next test i did i took her in and literally played around the arena, chatting to her, scratching her and not worrying about how we looked, and she actually got better marks than when i tried to 'ride' her correctly!


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## blitznbobs (21 December 2018)

Take 2 famous Grand Prix horses - a tense one .. for example Glocks Undercover or Totalis and a chilled one... lets choose Valegro who is famously chilled - see video of 11 yo riding him... which is more rideable? Which could you put ANY  rider on and see that rider survive and maybe get a tune... I know Iâ€™d be giggling as I swung into Valegroâ€™s  saddle and be shitting myself on the glocks horses... at the end of the day this is what dressage is about - how rideable is your horse and a backward horse is more fixable by more people than a tense one...


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## Bernster (21 December 2018)

This thread is taking a very odd turn ðŸ˜”


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## blitznbobs (21 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			yeah totally agree. one of my little mares is starting her dressage career and shows tension. Later on i ended up writing for the judge who marked us afterwards and she advised that for lower unaffiliated levels I would be better off not even trying to ride the moves correctly on her (ie to miss markers if the horse needs more times between transition etc) and make it as easy and fun for her as possible.  She said do anything needed to get the horse happy and relaxed, even if it looks awful and loses marks. She said she sees so many horses going up the levels, and if they start tense at prelim and solve that, then the tense compounds as they move up the levels.

I really took this on board as I had three years of tense comments on another horse. So for the next test i did i took her in and literally played around the arena, chatting to her, scratching her and not worrying about how we looked, and she actually got better marks than when i tried to 'ride' her correctly!
		
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I watched Carl Hester ride a young horse at a competition many years ago, I was sat with a friend and couldnâ€™t believe when he started to do what was obviously an adapted freestyle with long diagonals of half pass - and no complex movements at all ... I remember discussing it and saying things like he couldâ€™ve made that more complex etc etc... when that horse went to the olympics and I was him there 4 years later I finally understood how right Carl was...


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			OP, if your horse is tense in the arena why don't you view that making him comply with your request could also be seen as forceful?
Why do you only see force on the other side of your equation?
		
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Because he isn't being forced. I am sitting quietly and he is listening, but just as he is when he is turned out when excited, he comes up in his frame and arches his neck which manifests as tension in dressage. He's excited but not uncomfortable and not being forced with a strong hand or leg.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

shortstuff99 said:



			What was it you were hoping to achieve from this post OP? Clearly no-one here has responded in the way you wanted them too. Is everybody that has posted wrong? Probably not, which should start to make you think that perhaps tension (from excitement or not) is a major major fault in dressage less so than a horse behind the leg. HOWEVER if a rider is being abusive to the horse then that is a different story. Your posts seem to have changed the other competitors horses from being lazy and kind of on the forehand to basically being abused around an arena.
		
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What are you talking about? I have agreed with many posts and stated multiple times that I agree with comments on tension? Have you even read what I've said? For the record there are a number of posts which state that both are issues to be corrected, which is the position I agree with. There are also a number of comments which CONCUR WITH THOSE OF THE JUDGE that a novice horse displaying excitement and resulting tension will settle with experience. I used the term "kicking" in my OP and I have not changed that stance.


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## shortstuff99 (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			What are you talking about? I have agreed with many posts and stated multiple times that I agree with comments on tension? Have you even read what I've said? For the record there are a number of posts which state that both are issues to be corrected, which is the position I agree with. There are also a number of comments which CONCUR WITH THOSE OF THE JUDGE that a novice horse displaying excitement and resulting tension will settle with experience. I used the term "kicking" in my OP and I have not changed that stance.
		
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Because you bring up time and time again how your horse had 'good' tension and couldn't understand how these other horses were getting better scores than you. When people have explained you still mention that you don't agree! I have read every post that you have put on this thread.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

I never once used the term â€œgood tensionâ€ Youâ€™ve just made that up.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

shortstuff99 said:



			Because you bring up time and time again how your horse had 'good' tension and couldn't understand how these other horses were getting better scores than you. When people have explained you still mention that you don't agree! I have read every post that you have put on this thread.
		
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Tbh this is what I mean about bullying.

I ask a question about tension in an excited horse


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## J_sarahd (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Tbh this is what I mean about bullying.

I ask a question about tension in an excited horse
		
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Do you know the meaning of bullying?


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			To be fair the requirements of dressage don't sit alongside kicking and forcing a horse do they? Kind of my point really.
		
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Melodra said:



			he comes up in his frame and arches his neck which manifests as tension in dressage. He's excited but not uncomfortable and not being forced with a strong hand or leg.
		
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if he comes up in his frame and aches his neck then he isn't flowing through his body properly. It takes focused training to get a horse to come up correctly in a higher frame, when hes strong enough for self carriage and to lift and power through his back. If its a prelim horse starting out, then he's not coming up in his frame correctly, because he won't be physically strong enough to. When you say he is arching his neck, then he is locking tension in it and thats what is losing you marks. Where is his head at when he arches his neck?

From your posts you seem to feel kicking is cruel on some level? But then you mention riding a tense horse up into a contact, which could be more damaging mentally and physically to them in the long run.

From bringing horses through prelim classes I'd see kickers as
- novice riders with very ineffective weak legs who look like they are moving a lot but aren't actually landing much force on the horses side
- nervy riders who just default into flapping when they get in the ring because they are so nervous
- riders on more backward horses who might shut down unexpectedly when they get in the ring, and then you need to up the aids to get them forward. in which case its just using the aid that is effective at the time.
You have no knowledge of the history of horse and riders in the ring. No-one wants to go in booting a horse around. Or if they do its 1% of riders who are just terrible. 

Using prelim classes as an example is misleading for this discussion as the horses, the rider or both as a combo are starting on their journey. You don't see kickers by the time they get to novice, which would show its an issue with lower level riders/horses and gets solved as people go up the grades. the tension DOESN'T get solved though, which is why its a bigger base issue.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

shortstuff99 said:



			Because you bring up time and time again how your horse had 'good' tension and couldn't understand how these other horses were getting better scores than you. When people have explained you still mention that you don't agree! I have read every post that you have put on this thread.
		
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Posted too early.

I asked a question about tension in an over excited horse vs kicking a horse around an arena.

The response from some, not ALL, was that a horse being kicked and leaning on the rider as per my OP produces a harmonious picture and was acceptable because it denoted calm. 

I politely disagreed....the rest is all there.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 December 2018)

The way of going and way of rider communication is in the eye of the judge and anyone else watching. Riders do not always perceive their faults, nor how their animals are truly going.
Often people will look at their scores, particularly at starting out levels and get upset as their opinion differs from what others see.

OP, you are flaming a lot of knowledgeable folk on here, many have posted a great amount of very helpful advice and reading this thread is quite unpleasant in the way it's unfolding.
That said, I was giggling earlier at the thought of Cortez and MP in a clique, brilliant,  I'd be happy to join them! ðŸ¤£


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			if he comes up in his frame and aches his neck then he isn't flowing through his body properly. It takes focused training to get a horse to come up correctly in a higher frame, when hes strong enough for self carriage and to lift and power through his back. If its a prelim horse starting out, then he's not coming up in his frame correctly, because he won't be physically strong enough to. When you say he is arching his neck, then he is locking tension in it and thats what is losing you marks. Where is his head at when he arches his neck?

From your posts you seem to feel kicking is cruel on some level? But then you mention riding a tense horse up into a contact, which could be more damaging mentally and physically to them in the long run.

From bringing horses through prelim classes I'd see kickers as
- novice riders with very ineffective weak legs who look like they are moving a lot but aren't actually landing much force on the horses side
- nervy riders who just default into flapping when they get in the ring because they are so nervous
- riders on more backward horses who might shut down unexpectedly when they get in the ring, and then you need to up the aids to get them forward. in which case its just using the aid that is effective at the time.
You have no knowledge of the history of horse and riders in the ring. No-one wants to go in booting a horse around. Or if they do its 1% of riders who are just terrible.

Using prelim classes as an example is misleading for this discussion as the horses, the rider or both as a combo are starting on their journey. You don't see kickers by the time they get to novice, which would show its an issue with lower level riders/horses and gets solved as people go up the grades. the tension DOESN'T get solved though, which is why its a bigger base issue.
		
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He tightens his frame, ridden and and free in the paddock when excited. The head is up but arched but he will also lengthen his stride (that is his natural way of moving) The judgeâ€™s comments on a couple of the movements where marked down as tense were needs to be ridden forward into the contact, so..... I am only ever soft with my hands and legs with him, there is no force involved. If you are kicking a horse you are making it uncomfortable for him and so using force as opposed to encouraging him, which I feel, yes, is unethical.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			The way of going and way of rider communication is in the eye of the judge and anyone else watching. Riders do not always perceive their faults, nor how their animals are truly going.
Often people will look at their scores, particularly at starting out levels and get upset as their opinion differs from what others see.

OP, you are flaming a lot of knowledgeable folk on here, many have posted a great amount of very helpful advice and reading this thread is quite unpleasant in the way it's unfolding.
That said, I was giggling earlier at the thought of Cortez and MP in a clique, brilliant,  I'd be happy to join them! ðŸ¤£
		
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Already seen this on another thread


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Already seen this on another thread 

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Further will repeat AGAIN. I agreed with the judgeâ€™s comments, the collectives were actually rather lovely. Jesus Christ.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 December 2018)

OP, your posting style is very similar to a n other



Melodra said:



			Further will repeat AGAIN. I agreed with the judgeâ€™s comments, the collectives were actually rather lovely. Jesus Christ.
		
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What are you trying to achieve then?


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			OP, your posting style is very similar to a n other



What are you trying to achieve then?
		
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A discussion about tension in an inexperienced excited horse vs horses being kicked and forced. As per my OP. I find it surprising that kicking seen as so acceptable by so many people. Itâ€™s the first time Iâ€™ve come across it so prolifically.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			A discussion about tension in an inexperienced excited horse vs horses being kicked and forced. As per my OP. I find it surprising that kicking seen as so acceptable by so many people. Itâ€™s the first time Iâ€™ve come across it so prolifically.
		
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Well, there you go eh? 

Perception is a very good word I find


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			A discussion about tension in an inexperienced excited horse vs horses being kicked and forced. As per my OP. I find it surprising that kicking seen as so acceptable by so many people. Itâ€™s the first time Iâ€™ve come across it so prolifically.
		
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But you seem to be implying the dressage world is full of people using full force booting and kicking around the ring. At prelim the most you see is people flapping weakly or nagging out of nerves or habit. or the odd more experienced rider who realises they need to increase their aids the odd time to get a backwards or shut down horse to keep the pace its been asked for. I just don't know shows where people are battering horses around a dressage ring in a cruel way?


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			A discussion about tension in an inexperienced excited horse vs horses being kicked and forced. As per my OP. I find it surprising that kicking seen as so acceptable by so many people. Itâ€™s the first time Iâ€™ve come across it so prolifically.
		
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And I will repeat: *NO ONE* has said that kicking is a desirable way of riding, but they have said, repeatedly, that it is less disagreeable than presenting a tense horse in the dressage arena.


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

I think its an interesting debate, and I love reading others comments on it, especially as its an issue i worked to overcome for years!


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			But you seem to be implying the dressage world is full of people using full force booting and kicking around the ring. At prelim the most you see is people flapping weakly or nagging out of nerves or habit. or the odd more experienced rider who realises they need to increase their aids the odd time to get a backwards or shut down horse to keep the pace its been asked for. I just don't know shows where people are battering horses around a dressage ring in a cruel way?
		
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No, not at all. As I said, not seen it so prolifically before. This isnâ€™t my first/second actual dressage test...only on this horse and goes against everything I have been taught.


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

Just to stick my head above the parapet here. I am interested your comment about the arched neck. I had a very similar ones years ago. Here he is at prelim level at his second dressage test. He sounds like your horse and would arch when excited and was very forward.  We regularly got beaten by kickalong cobs, and I can totally see why when I look at the pics. His neck is holding tension, he is totally overbent and not accepting the contact, he is hollow over his back, he's not working through his back or pushing from behind correctly. 

He was all happy and excited on the day and delighted with life, but if I had pushed him on to harder stuff with only that as his base training it would have been a disaster, he has no base strength. When I look at that picture I see a horse that would have serious issues with his training at that time. I ended up  totally having to redo him from the start again


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			Just to stick my head above the parapet here. I am interested your comment about the arched neck. I had a very similar ones years ago. Here he is at prelim level at his second dressage test. He sounds like your horse and would arch when excited and was very forward.  We regularly got beaten by kickalong cobs, and I can totally see why when I look at the pics. His neck is holding tension, he is totally overbent and not accepting the contact, he is hollow over his back, he's not working through his back or pushing from behind correctly. 

He was all happy and excited on the day and delighted with life, but if I had pushed him on to harder stuff with only that as his base training it would have been a disaster, he has no base strength. When I look at that picture I see a horse that would have serious issues with his training at that time. I ended up  totally having to redo him from the start again
		
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Can see that, but then again I think we have discussed that this was his second event, the horse is relaxed at home and was much improved second time out. The judge certainly didnâ€™t think he needed to be retrained, just that he would relax in time with experience.

Again her comment was that he was displaying very promising work so obviously didnâ€™t think there were huge underlying and fundamental issues, nor did the judge in his first test who more or less said the same.


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## shortstuff99 (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Tbh this is what I mean about bullying.

I ask a question about tension in an excited horse
		
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This is not me bullying you, I stated something that I believed you were doing, that is not bullying. As regards to the 'good tension' this is your words taken from one of your posts 

"This was only his second test. The horse listened and was absolutely obedient and the tension came from over exuberance rather than discomfort or distress" which is surely you saying is 'good' tension rather than 'bad' tension, can you see where I got that impression from?


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

shortstuff99 said:



			This is not me bullying you, I stated something that I believed you were doing, that is not bullying. As regards to the 'good tension' this is your words taken from one of your posts 

"This was only his second test. The horse listened and was absolutely obedient and the tension came from over exuberance rather than discomfort or distress" which is surely you saying is 'good' tension rather than 'bad' tension, can you see where I got that impression from?
		
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No. I think you deliberately and intentionally misquoted me to try to back up your argument. It was a smear.

There is a difference between a horse that excited and one that is distressed. Itâ€™s very clear from my post. I didnâ€™t at any stage state that the former was â€œgood tensionâ€; only that there was a distinction.


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## DabDab (21 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			I think its an interesting debate, and I love reading others comments on it, especially as its an issue i worked to overcome for years!
		
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I agree, I think there have been some really interesting comments made. It's a while since I rode a tense horse in anything resembling dressage, but think it is probably going to be the key thing to work on for the young mare when we start getting out and about. I have the opposite problem to most people generally...I tend to take excitable horses and manage to make them horizontal without really trying.


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## shortstuff99 (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			No. I think you deliberately and intentionally misquoted me to try to back up your argument. It was a smear.

There is a difference between a horse that excited and one that is distressed. Itâ€™s very clear from my post. I didnâ€™t at any stage state that the former was â€œgood tensionâ€; only that there was a distinction.
		
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No I haven't misquoted you I used your actual words and that is not what a smear is either. And what is clear from your posts is you think that tension caused by an excitable horse should be seen as better than a horse being kicked or tense from pain.

ETA: as you questioned in your op 

"but she marked him pretty much on a level with how he was marked on his first time out, and seemed a little bit harsh. That said, I know it is swings and roundabouts with different judges, However, when I looked at the results he was placed below horses that were literally kicked around the arena and on their forehands and lazy but obviously calmer than my boy.

So, I guess my question is...is a horse showing a bit of tension due to excitement, but clearly enjoying himself and totally obedient and responsive, demonstrating quality work really so much worse than a horse that is more relaxed but being booted around the arena, not wanting to be there, not enjoying its work?"

I'm not personally attacking you, I'm forming my opinion literally on the things YOU have said.


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

DabDab said:



			I agree, I think there have been some really interesting comments made. It's a while since I rode a tense horse in anything resembling dressage, but think it is probably going to be the key thing to work on for the young mare when we start getting out and about. I have the opposite problem to most people generally...I tend to take excitable horses and manage to make them horizontal without really trying.
		
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This is a very good affect to have - you should be in much demand!


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## Bernster (21 December 2018)

We must be reading different posts then as Iâ€™ve NOT read anything like what you describe OP.  People have generally explained why the kick a longs might get scored the same or slightly higher, but I havent read anything that suggests that the kicking you describe is widely viewed as acceptable in the sense of the end game. Everyone seems to acknowledge that it happens at certain stages but itâ€™s not the desired outcome.

Although why I am launching myself into this car crash of a thread Iâ€™ll never know...but I canâ€™t seem to stop myself (even if it does mean Iâ€™m also at risk of getting baited).


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## Meowy Catkin (21 December 2018)

Melodra - this is just a discussion thread on a forum. Don't take it so seriously. It really doesn't matter that much.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

DabDab said:



			I agree, I think there have been some really interesting comments made. It's a while since I rode a tense horse in anything resembling dressage, but think it is probably going to be the key thing to work on for the young mare when we start getting out and about. I have the opposite problem to most people generally...I tend to take excitable horses and manage to make them horizontal without really trying.
		
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what is the opposite of an electric bum called?

...no it's not a bad joke from a christmas cracker... I just thought perhaps we could work on answering it to distract ourselves from the rest of the thread


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

but if a horse is excited then its


Melodra said:



			There is a difference between a horse that excited and one that is distressed. Itâ€™s very clear from my post.
		
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But you don't WANT excitement in dressage, you want zen and relaxation. Excitement means you have raised levels of adrenaline going through your body. This physical reaction totally interrupts the muscles and body working harmoniously. It causes the breathing  to shorten and get shallow, which affects flow to the brain and affects your thinking

All the sports psychologists say that your body cannot tell the difference between fear and excitment, and if you get nerves before an xc course, to just tell your brain you are excited, and that will switch your thinking to a positive mindset. We went to a charlie unwin talk where he hooked up riders to heart and breathing monitors. When people get excited their breathing gets shallower and quicker, the heart rate increases, muscles get tenser and they don't think as clearly or move their muscles properly.

A horse can be happy and relaxed and enjoying a test and do well. An excited horse, however,  has physical things going on in its body that are counter reactive to dressage principles, even on a base level of how their muscles are able to work.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

shortstuff99 said:



			No I haven't misquoted you I used your actual words and that is not what a smear is either. And what is clear from your posts is you think that tension caused by an excitable horse should be seen as better than a horse being kicked or tense from pain.

ETA: as you questioned in your op 

"but she marked him pretty much on a level with how he was marked on his first time out, and seemed a little bit harsh. That said, I know it is swings and roundabouts with different judges, However, when I looked at the results he was placed below horses that were literally kicked around the arena and on their forehands and lazy but obviously calmer than my boy.

So, I guess my question is...is a horse showing a bit of tension due to excitement, but clearly enjoying himself and totally obedient and responsive, demonstrating quality work really so much worse than a horse that is more relaxed but being booted around the arena, not wanting to be there, not enjoying its work?"

I'm not personally attacking you, I'm forming my opinion literally on the things YOU have said.
		
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Thatâ€™s utter rubbish. You used the words â€œgood tensionâ€ and others I never used. You are a liar and disingenuous. How disgusting


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			but if a horse is excited then its


But you don't WANT excitement in dressage, you want zen and relaxation. Excitement means you have raised levels of adrenaline going through your body. This physical reaction totally interrupts the muscles and body working harmoniously. It causes the breathing  to shorten and get shallow, which affects flow to the brain and affects your thinking

All the sports psychologists say that your body cannot tell the difference between fear and excitment, and if you get nerves before an xc course, to just tell your brain you are excited, and that will switch your thinking to a positive mindset. We went to a charlie unwin talk where he hooked up riders to heart and breathing monitors. When people get excited their breathing gets shallower and quicker, the heart rate increases, muscles get tenser and they don't think as clearly or move their muscles properly.

A horse can be happy and relaxed and enjoying a test and do well. An excited horse, however,  has physical things going on in its body that are counter reactive to dressage principles, even on a base level of how their muscles are able to work.
		
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Iâ€™m well aware that being excited in dressage is not wanted. But for me on an ethical level I would prefer my horse was excited than unhappy and being kicked along. 

Thatâ€™s just my preference. Itâ€™s the way I have always been taught to ethically treat a horse. It shouldnâ€™t be done by discomfort and force.


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## shortstuff99 (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Thatâ€™s utter rubbish. You used the words â€œgood tensionâ€ and others I never used. You are a liar and disingenuous. How disgusting
		
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I feel you don't understand the concept of paraphrasing, you're now arguing with your own actual words!


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Bernster said:



			We must be reading different posts then as Iâ€™ve NOT read anything like what you describe OP.  People have generally explained why the kick a longs might get scored the same or slightly higher, but I havent read anything that suggests that the kicking you describe is widely viewed as acceptable in the sense of the end game. Everyone seems to acknowledge that it happens at certain stages but itâ€™s not the desired outcome.

Although why I am launching myself into this car crash of a thread Iâ€™ll never know...but I canâ€™t seem to stop myself (even if it does mean Iâ€™m also at risk of getting baited).
		
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Lol. It was described as â€œharmoniousâ€ earlier


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## Tiddlypom (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			what is the opposite of an electric bum called?

...no it's not a bad joke from a christmas cracker... I just thought perhaps we could work on answering it to distract ourselves from the rest of the thread 

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That's me, too. I'm a lazy relaxed rider and I could usually get a good tune out of a tense horse. Trouble is, I'm older and more wimpy these days, so I have a steadier neddy now. It's been quite a culture shock...


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

shortstuff99 said:



			I feel you don't understand the concept of paraphrasing, you're now arguing with your own actual words!
		
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Where did I use the term â€œgood tension?â€


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

shortstuff99 said:



			I feel you don't understand the concept of paraphrasing, you're now arguing with your own actual words!
		
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extraordinary!


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Lol. It was described as â€œharmoniousâ€ earlier
		
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Really? Can you link to that please?


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

shortstuff99 said:



			I feel you don't understand the concept of paraphrasing, you're now arguing with your own actual words!
		
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You should actually be ashamed. You intentionally misquoted and then try to pass off as â€œparaphrasing.â€

You did it intentionally to win an argument. 

Youâ€™ve won. Sitting here in tears. Another member youâ€™ve bullied off.


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## shortstuff99 (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			You should actually be ashamed. You intentionally misquoted and then try to pass off as â€œparaphrasing.â€

You did it intentionally to win an argument.

Youâ€™ve won. Sitting here in tears. Another member youâ€™ve bullied off.
		
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I have never bullied a member off here in my life, and I was using your own words that formed a picture of what you were on about. I have reported you as you're clearly just trolling now.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Seriously. 
Melodra
Step away from the screen, have a cup of tea, let your own tension simmer down. This is getting crazy.


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## DabDab (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			what is the opposite of an electric bum called?

...no it's not a bad joke from a christmas cracker... I just thought perhaps we could work on answering it to distract ourselves from the rest of the thread 

Click to expand...

People did used to call me lead arse, but I'm not sure I like the sound of it . Whereas electric bum sounds cool.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

lol no that's a rather unflattering kind of description!


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			You should actually be ashamed. You intentionally misquoted and then try to pass off as â€œparaphrasing.â€

You did it intentionally to win an argument.

Youâ€™ve won. Sitting here in tears. Another member youâ€™ve bullied off.
		
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that is slightly over the top don't you think? its a debate about dressage. No-one is aiming to get anyone in tears and nobody particularly cares about strangers horses at the end of the day.


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

DabDab said:



			People did used to call me lead arse, but I'm not sure I like the sound of it . Whereas electric bum sounds cool.
		
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...are you sure they were talking about the riding, though (sorry, couldn't resist)


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## DabDab (21 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			...are you sure they were talking about the riding, though (sorry, couldn't resist)
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ now you mention it, no, I'm not at all sure that they were just talking about the riding. Oh God


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			...are you sure they were talking about the riding, though (sorry, couldn't resist)
		
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 *gasp*

Cortez, how could you ?!


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			*gasp*

Cortez, how could you ?! 

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I know: I'm such a bully!


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

You've got what you wanted.

I was happy and proud of my horse, who improved massively in his test. He had lovely comments from the judge. I'm now in tears.

I queried the scoring of horses who were literally kicked around the ring and asked for thoughts on this and whether this was really the aim of dressage. I asked if (generally) this was really so much worse than an inexperienced horse showing some excitement at his second event.

The amount of misquoting, deliberately misinterpreting me, backtracking, personal attacks, comments that my horse needs totally retraining because I express a view that kicking a horse is unethical have just been shocking,

At the end of the day, I shouldn't let strangers  on a forum get to me. I don't know them. The BD judge in this case (although unaff) clearly thought my horse had so much potential and in her words was showing "very promising work" and would settle with experience clearly meant she saw no fundamental or underlying issues and I will take a lot from that and his huge improvement between both tests and continue moving forwards.

Again, thanks a lot to those of you who offered useful and constructive advice in terms of settling him going forwards and who offered encouragement. It meant a lot and it is appreciated.

Those who are happy to see a horse kicked...I guess we would never agree. It has always been a no-no as far as I and every trainer I have come across is concerned and that isn't going to change. But I can't keep arguing when I am persistently misquoted, it's not an honest or fair way to debate and has me in tears. I know I'm not the first and unlikely to be the last, which is sad as the horse (and dressage) world is generally a decent place.


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## DabDab (21 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			I know: I'm such a bully!
		
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Tbh if you saw me in real life you'd realise how it could be considered it a compliment


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 December 2018)

DabDab said:



			I agree, I think there have been some really interesting comments made. It's a while since I rode a tense horse in anything resembling dressage, but think it is probably going to be the key thing to work on for the young mare when we start getting out and about. I have the opposite problem to most people generally...I tend to take excitable horses and manage to make them horizontal without really trying.
		
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Yup, me too! Its going to be the long way with B Fuzzy who is v tense,  upright and forwards going


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

OP, really I think you need to either walk away or take a fresh look at this whole thread imagining someone else started it, to get some perspective.

No one wanted anything, you started the thread and I can say hand on heart no one wanted to upset you because that's just not what HHO is about.
I think I can speak for everyone who answered the thread, that what most people want on here is to share views, support each other, find out alternative views, learn stuff, have an adult discussion about the whys and wherefores - that's what happens every day here.  Other than trolls which are few and far between, thankfully, no one comes here with the deliberate intent to upset anyone.

And literally no one has said they want to see horses kicked. Talk about misquoting!
If you're happy with your horse, then great. If you didn't understand the judging then you needed to either ask the judge or seek judge training elsewhere. But I find it a bit weird that you will take the judges positive views towards your horses as gospel, but then apparently dismiss their scoring of the so called lazy horses? can't really have it both ways?  

there's no need to be in tears, that's a huge overreaction to what could have been (and has at times) a really interesting discussion.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 December 2018)

OP, that word again...

PERCEPTION 

it's a very good word


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

I just disagree that kicking is a worse issue than say 'sawing' at a horses mouth, or them being compressed and pulled into a contact that isn't correct for them. Both of those are worse sins in my eyes than kicking, as they cause serious long term muscular-skeletal issues.

You don't see people repeatedly hard kicking a forward horse around a ring. It tends to be the ploddy types, who don't seem to register it or seem stressed by it, they just look dull to it. It's bad training, but is it a welfare issue?.  If the horse wants the kicking to cease they know they should power forward, but most just do the minimum. If you put those kicking riders on a forward tb type, their kicking would soon stop.

i think its way worse when you see people fiddling wityh hands. The pain levels registered in a horses sensitive mouth area would be way worse than kicking pain wise.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			OP, really I think you need to either walk away or take a fresh look at this whole thread imagining someone else started it, to get some perspective.

No one wanted anything, you started the thread and I can say hand on heart no one wanted to upset you because that's just not what HHO is about.
I think I can speak for everyone who answered the thread, that what most people want on here is to share views, support each other, find out alternative views, learn stuff, have an adult discussion about the whys and wherefores - that's what happens every day here.  Other than trolls which are few and far between, thankfully, no one comes here with the deliberate intent to upset anyone.

And literally no one has said they want to see horses kicked. Talk about misquoting!
If you're happy with your horse, then great. If you didn't understand the judging then you needed to either ask the judge or seek judge training elsewhere. But I find it a bit weird that you will take the judges positive views towards your horses as gospel, but then apparently dismiss their scoring of the so called lazy horses? can't really have it both ways?  

there's no need to be in tears, that's a huge overreaction to what could have been (and has at times) a really interesting discussion.
		
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I queried the scoring as I found it odd which is why I raised it as a debate....if you look back through my comments (and yours originally) there are some decent explanations as to why neither is correct but in the context of a test one could potentially score higher. We then descended into a horse being kicked along = soft, submissive and harmonious. 

As for taking the positive comments only, Iâ€™ve said I agree with her feedback regarding tension and not just the good parts  so not sure how youâ€™ve got that impression.

In fact you are cherry picking...because time and time again youâ€™ve ignored the fact this is an inexperienced horse and the judge saw no fundamental issues...only that what he was showing was promising and he would relax with experience.

Yes, I am upset. Itâ€™s easy to be a keyboard warrior but perhaps you should take a step back and consider the impact of you and your friends deliberately ganging up to misinterpret, attack an individual because you donâ€™t agree with them.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			I just disagree that kicking is a worse issue than say 'sawing' at a horses mouth, or them being compressed and pulled into a contact that isn't correct for them. Both of those are worse sins in my eyes than kicking, as they cause serious long term muscular-skeletal issues.

You don't see people repeatedly hard kicking a forward horse around a ring. It tends to be the ploddy types, who don't seem to register it or seem stressed by it, they just look dull to it. It's bad training, but is it a welfare issue?.  If the horse wants the kicking to cease they know they should power forward, but most just do the minimum. If you put those kicking riders on a forward tb type, their kicking would soon stop.

i think its way worse when you see people fiddling wityh hands. The pain levels registered in a horses sensitive mouth area would be way worse than kicking pain wise.
		
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I agree, that is awful but thatâ€™s not what I was doing. He would back right off and canter on the spot if you tried to do that and he doesnâ€™t need it anyway. Everything, hand and leg has to be soft with him.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			As for taking the positive comments only, Iâ€™ve said I agree with her feedback regarding tension and not just the good parts  so not sure how youâ€™ve got that impression.

In fact you are cherry picking...because time and time again youâ€™ve ignored the fact this is an inexperienced horse and the judge saw no fundamental issues...only that what he was showing was promising and he would relax with experien.
		
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No, it is you who are cherry picking, how can the same judge be right about your horse and so wrong about the others?

You've had numerous explanations of why the judge would score them that way, but it was you that turned it into endless rants about kicking, everyone else said it was not ideal but that in the context of a scored dressage test that it would be ranked above a tense horse.


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## ester (21 December 2018)

Wow, definitely parallel universe.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Itâ€™s easy to be a keyboard warrior but perhaps you should take a step back and consider the impact of you and your friends deliberately hanging up to misinterpret, attack an individual because you donâ€™t agree with them.
		
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Pot, kettle and black. You have deliberately attacked posters for their views when these have not coincided with your opinions. No, I'm not going to multiquote as I just cannot be bothered any longer. 
Again, perception,  look it up.


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			I queried the scoring as I found it odd which is why I raised it as a debate....if you look back through my comments (and yours originally) there are some decent explanations as to why neither is correct but in the context of a test one could potentially score higher. We then descended into a horse being kicked along = soft, submissive and harmonious.

As for taking the positive comments only, Iâ€™ve said I agree with her feedback regarding tension and not just the good parts  so not sure how youâ€™ve got that impression.

In fact you are cherry picking...because time and time again youâ€™ve ignored the fact this is an inexperienced horse and the judge saw no fundamental issues...only that what he was showing was promising and he would relax with experience.

Yes, I am upset. Itâ€™s easy to be a keyboard warrior but perhaps you should take a step back and consider the impact of you and your friends deliberately hanging up to misinterpret, attack an individual because you donâ€™t agree with them.
		
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Melodra (well named, BTW), nobody has attacked you. *Nobody*. In fact I'm pretty sure most of us are quite worried about you because your responses are way over the top and quite, yes: melodramatic. You, on the other hand have variously name-called, used rude language, and misquoted, twisted and obdurately ignored all reasonable explanations for something that you purport to misunderstand. 

Seriously, have that cup of tea.


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## ester (21 December 2018)

Or just go and do all those things you said you needed to do earlier.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			Pot, kettle and black. You have deliberately attacked posters for their views when these have not coincided with your opinions. No, I'm not going to multiquote as I just cannot be bothered any longer.
Again, perception,  look it up.
		
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Why have I "liked" and even thanked them then. Liar. And you wonder why you have people in tears.


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## nikicb (21 December 2018)

Goodness, what a melodrama!

For what it's worth, I have a buzzy Welsh/Arab/Appy mare who displays tension in tests.  We have gone from having occasional mid 60s tests, paired with plenty of much lower scores when the tension bubbled over.  We're now consistently gaining upper 60s and early 70s tests at prelim, and above mid 60s at novice.  What has worked for us is slowing everything right down (especially in the trot, using my rising rhythm to dictate her rhythm), allowing her time to balance.  In tests now if things get tense, we slow everything down, almost too much, get our focus back, and then pick up the tempo slightly again with better balance.  The photos below show the difference this has made (and it didn't come overnight!).  I bought the first picture as it made me laugh and knew it would be a good one to look back on to see our progress.  There's around 2 years between the two.  I know the frustration of having a talented horse but not being able to demonstrate it in competitions, but with patience it does come.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Melodra (well named, BTW), nobody has attacked you. *Nobody*. In fact I'm pretty sure most of us are quite worried about you because your responses are way over the top and quite, yes: melodramatic. You, on the other hand have variously name-called, used rude language, and misquoted, twisted and obdurately ignored all reasonable explanations for something that you purport to misunderstand.

Seriously, have that cup of tea.
		
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You've done this to more than me though haven't you? Might have thought it was just me had someone else not told me you bullied them off the forum when they were going through a particularly difficult time. Gas lighting now.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Why have I "liked" and even thanked them then. Liar. And you wonder why you have people in tears.
		
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You have slagged off MP,  Cortez and others, take a look at yourself poppet.
School holidays getting a bit too much eh?
Grab a cuppa


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## ester (21 December 2018)

Ooh does Godwinâ€™s law usually apply after gaslighting?


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

OP can you either elaborate on your insider info that you apparently have against people on this thread or else stop going on about it, because at the moment it just comes across like inflammatory nonsense.


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Why have I "liked" and even thanked them then. Liar. And you wonder why you have people in tears.
		
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Calling people liars is not going to make you any more popular. People "like" things because they agree with the things said?


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Nice Christmas Baubles said:



			Goodness, what a melodrama!

For what it's worth, I have a buzzy Welsh/Arab/Appy mare who displays tension in tests.  We have gone from having occasional mid 60s tests, paired with plenty of much lower scores when the tension bubbled over.  We're now consistently gaining upper 60s and early 70s tests at prelim, and above mid 60s at novice.  What has worked for us is slowing everything right down (especially in the trot, using my rising rhythm to dictate her rhythm), allowing her time to balance.  In tests now if things get tense, we slow everything down, almost too much, get our focus back, and then pick up the tempo slightly again with better balance.  The photos below show the difference this has made (and it didn't come overnight!).  I bought the first picture as it made me laugh and knew it would be a good one to look back on to see our progress.  There's around 2 years between the two.  I know the frustration of having a talented horse but not being able to demonstrate it in competitions, but with patience it does come.

View attachment 28286
View attachment 28287

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Thanks so much for this. Have found so far using the rise really helps with him, he prances about on the spot with too much hand, but I think I probably need to be more proactive about it during a test, when my own nerves probably get in the way as well. She is beautiful.


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## blitznbobs (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Why have I "liked" and even thanked them then. Liar. And you wonder why you have people in tears.
		
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Really ? In tears over a on line forum? People you donâ€™t know and have never met? Itâ€™s supposed to be a bit of fun and if it stops being so donâ€™t do it.


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			You've done this to more than me though haven't you? Might have thought it was just me had someone else not told me you bullied them off the forum when they were going through a particularly difficult time. Gas lighting now.
		
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I haven't "done" anything other than what everyone does on this forum, reply to posts and express opinions. Discussions on here can be robust at times (this one for instance), do you feel bullied? Because I can honestly say that I don't see anyone bullying you, not me, not anyone.


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## PapaverFollis (21 December 2018)

Christ on an actual bike, wtf have I just read? ðŸ˜‚ This thread is bonkers.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			I haven't "done" anything other than what everyone does on this forum, reply to posts and express opinions. Discussions on here can be robust at times (this one for instance), do you feel bullied? Because I can honestly say that I don't see anyone bullying you, not me, not anyone.
		
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You wouldn't, but you have done it before. 

You're not going to admit to it, but you must know it's true. I do, I know what's in my inbox, so your protestations just make you look like a liar to me. Keep up your front if you so wish, but it's dishonest.


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## blitznbobs (21 December 2018)

This thread is like a scab ... I know I should ignore it and not pick at it but itâ€™s somewhat irresistible


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## J_sarahd (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			You wouldn't, but you have done it before.

You're not going to admit to it, but you must know it's true. I do, I know what's in my inbox, so your protestations just make you look like a liar to me. Keep up your front if you so wish, but it's dishonest.
		
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I think you need to give a little insight into who has accused these people of being bullies because you sound like youâ€™re fabricating this as a way to stoke an argument.


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			You wouldn't, but you have done it before.

You're not going to admit to it, but you must know it's true. I do, I know what's in my inbox, so your protestations just make you look like a liar to me. Keep up your front if you so wish, but it's dishonest.
		
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I have literally no idea what you're on about. If I was of a sensitive nature I would be sitting in front of my computer screen in tears now........but luckily I am a grown up.


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## nikicb (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Thanks so much for this. Have found so far using the rise really helps with him, he prances about on the spot with too much hand, but I think I probably need to be more proactive about it during a test, when my own nerves probably get in the way as well. She is beautiful.
		
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Sing, hum, count, talk to yourself (internally) through every movement of the test.  Most of all stay focused on riding every step of the test at the tempo you want.  I found the tenser she gets, the more unbalanced she gets, and then she gets tenser still.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 December 2018)

J_sarahd said:



			I think you need to give a little insight into who has accused these people of being bullies because you sound like youâ€™re fabricating this as a way to stoke an argument.
		
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Exactly



Melodra said:



			You wouldn't, but you have done it before.

You're not going to admit to it, but you must know it's true. I do, I know what's in my inbox, so your protestations just make you look like a liar to me. Keep up your front if you so wish, but it's dishonest.
		
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You now sound like a petulant year 10 or 11, behave for goodness sake. Sigh..


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			I have literally no idea what you're on about. If I was of a sensitive nature I would be sitting in front of my computer screen in tears now........but luckily I am a grown up.
		
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Why does it not surprise me you have zero empathy for people you've upset?


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Just to try and wrestle this thread back into the realms of sanity, a long time ago 


Melodra said:



			Why does it not surprise me you have zero empathy for people you've upset?
		
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How have I upset you? Seriously, line all of my responses to you up and read them through: where is the upset?


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Nice Christmas Baubles said:



			Sing, hum, count, talk to yourself (internally) through every movement of the test.  Most of all stay focused on riding every step of the test at the tempo you want.  I found the tenser she gets, the more unbalanced she gets, and then she gets tenser still.
		
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Thank you, that sounds like a plan, instead of stressing internally about forgetting the test, or about him being excited, which I'm sure doesn't help!


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## splashgirl45 (21 December 2018)

i dont think anyone on here has been bullying,  if you had put a video of your horse on we could have seen what the tension was like and maybe give you some more idea of what the judge saw.  we didnt see your horse or the others being kicked so can only give our opinions as to why they were marked higher than you.   i stand by my original post as had recently been writing for a good judge at a lower level.  she marked all fairly IMO but did mark the tense horses lower as they were not only tense in their necks but in the whole body while some of the kick along types, although not in a correct outline were swinging through their backs and gave an overall more harmonious picture.  i will say again, please volunteer to write for a judge and you will understand where i (and many others ) point of view come from.  i also do not agree with hefty kicking and force and always prefer a harmonious picture with no horses being BTV and tense which is how i felt the glocks stallion went on tuesday. if i had been judging he would have been place much lower, but i am not a judge.  by the way, if there is a clique i havent seen any sign of it...


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

*At the end of the day a tense/excited horse has a mental issue somewhere with the whole process *and this is a worse sin that a horse who needs an ugly leg aid*.  *If a horse has tension, either the horse finds the environment is stressful or overwhleming, the moves are difficult, the horse is picking up riders nerves etc. All of which are a very weak foundation to show harmony and are marked harshly to make riders overcome them before moving up.

Excitement doesn't not show happiness in a dressage horse, it shows a horse with some issue going on. I know a few genuinely happy dressage horses (i don't own any unfortunately) and they all are totally chill in the ring as they love going in front of an audience and showing off. they are 100% in their bodies and seem to absolutely relish using their athleticism and showing off. 

prelim level is marked mainly on rhythm and relaxation. At the end of the day a tense horse is not displaying these two things, regardless of all the other positives it may have. if a horse is tense/excited , its breathing is shallow and its rhythm is stilted and off beat.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

.whoops, edited to paste link and lost the text. never mind!  yes, the glocks horse was a really odd one.


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Just to try and wrestle this thread back into the realms of sanity, a long time ago (30 years) I used to train a pure bred Arab, he was competing at PSG (I believe, at the time, he was the only Arab at that level). Competing, but not winning, despite him being a very pleasant, non-stressy type of guy, and feeling really soft in his way of going, I was getting "tension" noted in the comments regularly. I asked the judge (try this, they are usually happy to discuss, unless you are spittle-flecked and aggressive...) who replied that Arabs were always going to have this problem as they particularly hold tension in their backs (possibly due to conformation and tail carriage). That horse worked all the way up to GP, but I stopped competing as it was a hiding to nothing. Not saying it was fair, or correct; just the way it is.


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## blitznbobs (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			.
		
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I agree most of those horses have amazing movement but the picture is ruined by tension ... if they could teach those horses to chill they would probably be unbeatable


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

ester said:



			Ooh does Godwinâ€™s law usually apply after gaslighting?
		
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What's Godwin's law? Must Google...


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			I agree most of those horses have amazing movement but the picture is ruined by tension ... if they could teach those horses to chill they would probably be unbeatable
		
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totally agree. I loved watching Delicato, I thought it was a beautifully elastic test but those glocks horses all have some extra star quality, if only...


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## oldie48 (21 December 2018)

Wow, goodness me! I am totally gobsmacked that anyone could get upset at anything that has been put on this thread, there's loads of good advice and explanation which relates exactly to the opening post. Which was basically why do lazy behind the leg horses score better at prelim than ones that show tension? Perhaps it would have been a better post if the OP had asked "how can I help my horse to be more relaxed at competitions?" Anyway, the late lovely Bisto could be a very tense horse, he'd lock his neck, tighten his back and his lovely long legs would whirl around him in a frenzy, knees up by his nose. One of the most effective ways of dealing with it was to give him a strong leg aid  to get him moving forward instead of up and down, IME tense hot horses are often behind the leg just as much as lazy horses and both benefit from being sent forward. A strong leg aid doesn't look pretty, of course, but neither does a tense horse so in a test it's a good idea to do it in a corner where the judge won't notice it.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



*At the end of the day a tense/excited horse has a mental issue somewhere with the whole process *and this is a worse sin that a horse who needs an ugly leg aid*.  *If a horse has tension, either the horse finds the environment is stressful or overwhleming, the moves are difficult, the horse is picking up riders nerves etc. All of which are a very weak foundation to show harmony and are marked harshly to make riders overcome them before moving up.

Excitement doesn't not show happiness in a dressage horse, it shows a horse with some issue going on. I know a few genuinely happy dressage horses (i don't own any unfortunately) and they all are totally chill in the ring as they love going in front of an audience and showing off. they are 100% in their bodies and seem to absolutely relish using their athleticism and showing off. 

prelim level is marked mainly on rhythm and relaxation. At the end of the day a tense horse is not displaying these two things, regardless of all the other positives it may have. if a horse is tense/excited , its breathing is shallow and its rhythm is stilted and off beat.
		
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Rather at odds at your previous comment. Excitement at an event is very natural for a horse not used to them on its second time out.

 In fact I think your previous comments indicate you would expect in such an instance for the horse to settle. Changed your mind so now my horse has a mental issue?


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Rather at odds at your previous comment. Excitement at an event is very natural for a horse not used to them on its second time out.

In fact I think your previous comments indicate you would expect in such an instance for the horse to settle. Changed your mind so now my horse has a mental issue?
		
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im not even talking about your horse at this stage, its just a general debate. I have never seen your horse during a test, so theres no way for me to expand on it either way.

Im not at odds with any previous comment I made. Most horse do settle with some mileage on them, but some don't and always hold tension on some level. They mightn't be leaping or snorting, but they are holding tension through their back, and will get marked accordingly.

Its like looking at someone dancing on dancefloor at a nightclub. you can tell the  people who are conscious of people watching them. they don't dance as fluidly or enjoyably as someone just up on the dancefloor giving it socks regardless. 

Tension in a test is a massive red flag for me. A clumsy leg aid can be remidied, but a horse having an issue mentally with whats going on is always something I want to fix.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

I think you are reading things into comments that literally aren't there, Melodra

Surely the very idea that the horse needs more experience of different competition atmospheres to learn how to relax shows that it's a mental issue rather than a physical one? I really don't think you need to take that as a slight at all - that is normal, many horses have to learn about how to relax in new places.  That is a mental process.  Hence a mental issue.


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			yeah totally agree. one of my little mares is starting her dressage career and shows tension. Later on i ended up writing for the judge who marked us afterwards and she advised that for lower unaffiliated levels I would be better off not even trying to ride the moves correctly on her (ie to miss markers if the horse needs more times between transition etc) and make it as easy and fun for her as possible.  She said do anything needed to get the horse happy and relaxed, even if it looks awful and loses marks. She said she sees so many horses going up the levels, and if they start tense at prelim and don't solve that, then the tension compounds as they move up the levels.

I really took this on board as I had three years of tense comments on another horse. So for the next test i did i took her in and literally played around the arena, chatting to her, scratching her and not worrying about how we looked, and she actually got better marks than when i tried to 'ride' her correctly!
		
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This is what I meant about always riding for the NEXT test. Having a lovely time today, so it will be happier tomorrow. I regularly cut corners, cut a whole short side short of necessary because there is a scary banner /scary hut/ scary cafe or whatever, so the horse knows that he will be safe in the arena. I also think of "helping" the horse to balance for XXXXX so it does not become confrontational. 

I am probably not a techincally good as most on this thread, but have taken several "problem" horses to be relaxed at Ele, mostly because I ride like a slack arse! I tend to thank then for what they have done, and make it easy as I can.



Melodra said:



			He tightens his frame, ridden and and free in the paddock when excited. The head is up but arched but he will also lengthen his stride (that is his natural way of moving) The judgeâ€™s comments on a couple of the movements where marked down as tense were needs to be ridden forward into the contact, so..... I am only ever soft with my hands and legs with him, there is no force involved. If you are kicking a horse you are making it uncomfortable for him and so using force as opposed to encouraging him, which I feel, yes, is unethical.
		
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As a (reluctant) judge I can share with you that I have a set of stock phrases that I use, and I do not have time to write an essay between horses. Needing to be ridden forward to a contact would indicate that the horse was not drawing the contact forward, and indicating to ride forward more into the contact wold indicate the horse is behind the contact. The horse needs to softly seek the contact, and will then lose the false arched neck. 

I do have to query where on earth this is, as I have never been to a competition yet with so many people cruelly kicking their horses round an arena. Eve so, I will be (tra la) the first person on this thread to say that YES I have sometimes given a good pony club kick if my horse has ignored my leg!!!! I do this in the collecting ring so he is on my aids before going into the arena. IMO a good pony club kick is kinder than nagging. Many people also end up nagging with their hands (more of an issue IMO as the mouth is very sensitive) because they are seeking the contact backwards rathee then the horse seeking it forwards.



Melodra said:



			Can see that, but then again I think we have discussed that this was his second event, the horse is relaxed at home and was much improved second time out. The judge certainly didnâ€™t think he needed to be retrained, just that he would relax in time with experience.

Again her comment was that he was displaying very promising work so obviously didnâ€™t think there were huge underlying and fundamental issues, nor did the judge in his first test who more or less said the same.
		
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I refer to my comment above, it is the sort of comment I would make as I am always encouraging. I will say what a wonderful horse it is, give what the main issue is (in your judge's case it seems to be that the horse is tense and about the contact - which I went into above). I then say how wonderful the horse will be when this issue is sorted. The dressage sheet is not a dressage lesson, it is an indication of the main issues as there is simply not time to do more, and to be encouraging. 




Melodra said:



			Thanks so much for this. Have found so far using the rise really helps with him, he prances about on the spot with too much hand, but I think I probably need to be more proactive about it during a test, when my own nerves probably get in the way as well. She is beautiful.
		
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See, if I use "too much hand" my horse will soften and stop dead. If I continued to use hand the horse would reverse, head low, until I stopped. Prancing around on the spot from use of the hand alone means there is indeed, IMO, a fundamental schooling issue. 

I had a complaint once from a junior Trailblazer section. There was one very fine, prancy pony there, all dolled up, fancy tack, full clip... and tense. The pony was not using his body, was not seeking and taking the contact. The face was behind the vertical (harder to fix than one that is too far in-front IME), the outline was false and the pony just looked miserable. I do not necessarily agree that a tense horse is a happy horse. That pony was the smartest but did not win. 

The winner? A very surprised young lady, on a shaggy, unclipped pony. The pony was happy and relaxed. The pony did what was asked, where he was asked to do it. The saddle was a GP, the numnah a dark fluffy one, the girl's boots were made of rubber. But it was a pleasing picture, the pony was seeking the contact and as he was not bracing at all against the bit the outline was soft and round. Although the picture was indeed somewhat downhill and lacking in impulsion, it was all there ready to go. Winner, winner, chicken dinner. 

I have a new baby horse. She has done some dressage before, but I have so far only done a couple of Intro tests, because the first one I took her to she dropped me. I don't mean on the floor, I mean she went behind the leg and hand. I would say that it is a defensive action, and I did not like it was my horses need to look to me for guidance, not be defensive. She got over 70% actually, but I was very disappointed as she had not stayed as she would at home. We went and did some homework, and the second test she scored the same, but I was ecstatic as the extra work had paid off and she had stayed true to the aids. We are having a break, but for me we won't move beyond Intro and Prelim until I know I can keep her on the aids, which is where she will be if she is confident. 

I have tried a few times to explain why I believe being tense and set in the neck is such a deserved mark blocker. A laid back horse would score higher with me, I won't explain more as I am not sure it is being helpful at all. I am surprised that all this cruelty goes on in your area, as if I were judging and anyone was being cruel with kicks or spurs or whips then I would stop the test. They certainly would not be winning. 

As for the forum, I am not in any cliques. I think I have twice smarted when someone disagreed with me on the forum, I closed the tab and did not look back at it. I don't think there has been any bullying, as for Cortez, I have no idea who she is in real life, but I have only ever seen considered posts on here from her sharing what is obviously great experience. Same with Milliepops, and Paddi. I have got frustrated myself when someone asks a question, and when a reasonable answer is given it is rubbished.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			I think you are reading things into comments that literally aren't there, Melodra

Surely the very idea that the horse needs more experience of different competition atmospheres to learn how to relax shows that it's a mental issue rather than a physical one? I really don't think you need to take that as a slight at all - that is normal, many horses have to learn about how to relax in new places.  That is a mental process.  Hence a mental issue.[/QUOTE

Given thatâ€™s what iâ€™ve been saying all along, why are you even arguing? Itâ€™s hardly a long term serious issue, is it? Itâ€™s perfectly normal. And the huge improvement between tests would suggest that itâ€™s unlikely to be a long term serious issue.
		
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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			This is what I meant about always riding for the NEXT test. Having a lovely time today, so it will be happier tomorrow. I regularly cut corners, cut a whole short side short of necessary because there is a scary banner /scary hut/ scary cafe or whatever, so the horse knows that he will be safe in the arena. I also think of "helping" the horse to balance for XXXXX so it does not become confrontational. 

I am probably not a techincally good as most on this thread, but have taken several "problem" horses to be relaxed at Ele, mostly because I ride like a slack arse! I tend to thank then for what they have done, and make it easy as I can.



As a (reluctant) judge I can share with you that I have a set of stock phrases that I use, and I do not have time to write an essay between horses. Needing to be ridden forward to a contact would indicate that the horse was not drawing the contact forward, and indicating to ride forward more into the contact wold indicate the horse is behind the contact. The horse needs to softly seek the contact, and will then lose the false arched neck. 

I do have to query where on earth this is, as I have never been to a competition yet with so many people cruelly kicking their horses round an arena. Eve so, I will be (tra la) the first person on this thread to say that YES I have sometimes given a good pony club kick if my horse has ignored my leg!!!! I do this in the collecting ring so he is on my aids before going into the arena. IMO a good pony club kick is kinder than nagging. Many people also end up nagging with their hands (more of an issue IMO as the mouth is very sensitive) because they are seeking the contact backwards rathee then the horse seeking it forwards.



I refer to my comment above, it is the sort of comment I would make as I am always encouraging. I will say what a wonderful horse it is, give what the main issue is (in your judge's case it seems to be that the horse is tense and about the contact - which I went into above). I then say how wonderful the horse will be when this issue is sorted. The dressage sheet is not a dressage lesson, it is an indication of the main issues as there is simply not time to do more, and to be encouraging. 




See, if I use "too much hand" my horse will soften and stop dead. If I continued to use hand the horse would reverse, head low, until I stopped. Prancing around on the spot from use of the hand alone means there is indeed, IMO, a fundamental schooling issue. 

I had a complaint once from a junior Trailblazer section. There was one very fine, prancy pony there, all dolled up, fancy tack, full clip... and tense. The pony was not using his body, was not seeking and taking the contact. The face was behind the vertical (harder to fix than one that is too far in-front IME), the outline was false and the pony just looked miserable. I do not necessarily agree that a tense horse is a happy horse. That pony was the smartest but did not win. 

The winner? A very surprised young lady, on a shaggy, unclipped pony. The pony was happy and relaxed. The pony did what was asked, where he was asked to do it. The saddle was a GP, the numnah a dark fluffy one, the girl's boots were made of rubber. But it was a pleasing picture, the pony was seeking the contact and as he was not bracing at all against the bit the outline was soft and round. Although the picture was indeed somewhat downhill and lacking in impulsion, it was all there ready to go. Winner, winner, chicken dinner. 

I have a new baby horse. She has done some dressage before, but I have so far only done a couple of Intro tests, because the first one I took her to she dropped me. I don't mean on the floor, I mean she went behind the leg and hand. I would say that it is a defensive action, and I did not like it was my horses need to look to me for guidance, not be defensive. She got over 70% actually, but I was very disappointed as she had not stayed as she would at home. We went and did some homework, and the second test she scored the same, but I was ecstatic as the extra work had paid off and she had stayed true to the aids. We are having a break, but for me we won't move beyond Intro and Prelim until I know I can keep her on the aids, which is where she will be if she is confident. 

I have tried a few times to explain why I believe being tense and set in the neck is such a deserved mark blocker. A laid back horse would score higher with me, I won't explain more as I am not sure it is being helpful at all. I am surprised that all this cruelty goes on in your area, as if I were judging and anyone was being cruel with kicks or spurs or whips then I would stop the test. They certainly would not be winning. 

As for the forum, I am not in any cliques. I think I have twice smarted when someone disagreed with me on the forum, I closed the tab and did not look back at it. I don't think there has been any bullying, as for Cortez, I have no idea who she is in real life, but I have only ever seen considered posts on here from her sharing what is obviously great experience. Same with Milliepops, and Paddi. I have got frustrated myself when someone asks a question, and when a reasonable answer is given it is rubbished.
		
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Ok. Iâ€™ll ignore the positives from the judge. She was just saying it.


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

thats really interesting about the comments red nose. for years i got 'needs to be ridden forward more in to a contact' 'needs more suppleness through back' or the awful 'tense'!

its only when we cracked the tension (after a three year learning curve, that we started getting the 'what a happy horse' comments.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

an excellent and comprehensive post Red 

I'm not arguing  who needs to argue? I though we were all just discussing your question.

What is *normal* is not the same as what is *correct* in competitive dressage though.
The judge can't look at your horse and give the score for the test he will do in 2 years time when he has relaxed. She can only score what you present on the day, so the fact that there is all this good stuff to potentially show in the future is completely irrelevant on the day for everyone except you. It's not relevant to the judge, nor to the other competitors, nor to this discussion.


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Ok. Iâ€™ll ignore the positives from the judge. She was just saying it.
		
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realistically at prelim levle the judge is always going to add in a lovely comment somewhere, because they want to encourage the rider and build up positivity for the pair. when you write for a prelim judge you tend to spend most of the day writing 'lovely horse, will be super once he does x, y or z'


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			its only when we cracked the tension (after a three year learning curve, that we started getting the 'what a happy horse' comments.
		
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yup it's the "great partnership" and "willing horse" comments in the collectives that make my heart sing when I pick up my sheets, it means so much when you've been through a tough journey


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

The outcome from this forum (excluding those who have been supportive and offered constructive advice.

- Your horse has a serious issue and needs retraining
- Kicking is acceptable.
- The judge did not mean the positives on your test sheet.

I think I've had enough. I took an inexperienced excitable horse on his second time out. He showed a massive improvement, was marked down for tension on some of movements, but still received a respectable score and the judge clearly thought he had potential. I was happy and delighted with this.

I'm absolutely gutted. I would appreciate you all just leaving me alone now. You've now finally succeeded in absolutely ruining it for me.


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Ok. Iâ€™ll ignore the positives from the judge. She was just saying it.
		
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No, I would not ignore it, I am sure you horse is everything the judge said your horse is. I won't say a horse is wonderful if it is not (I usually an more specific than "wonderful!!! - it could be very active, or athletic, or willing, or...whatever). I was merely indicating that you are assuming too much to say that the judge was indicating that there were no fundamental issues, which seemed to be your conclusion. They do not have time other than to say what they like, say what needs improvement and then say something encouraging for the future. 

The judge would not have time to indicate all issues, and give you a program of work to rectify it. I believe I did indicate that, but you have chosen to take what I said out of context. I do not understand why you feel negatively to people trying to help.


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## ester (21 December 2018)

Excluding pretty much everyone that I can see then...

MP F's last ever test comment was 'smashing pony' obviously I tended to agree


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			No, I would not ignore it, I am sure you horse is everything the judge said your horse is. I won't say a horse is wonderful if it is not (I usually an more specific than "wonderful!!! - it could be very active, or athletic, or willing, or...whatever). I was merely indicating that you are assuming too much to say that the judge was indicating that there were no fundamental issues, which seemed to be your conclusion. They do not have time other than to say what they like, say what needs improvement and then say something encouraging for the future.

The judge would not have time to indicate all issues, and give you a program of work to rectify it. I believe I did indicate that, but you have chosen to take what I said out of context. I do not understand why you feel negatively to people trying to help.
		
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I'm finished with this. Sorry.


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Leave you alone? Literally all you have to do is go away and eat some choccie or something. Just think how bad you've made all the people you've insulted feel.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Leave you alone? Literally all you have to do is go away and eat some choccie or something. Just think how bad you've made all the people you've insulted feel.
		
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Please just stop it.


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## ester (21 December 2018)

Cortez just stop being so logical and truthful


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

No; YOU stop it. There, now we're at the same level. 

So, I'm off, anyone care to join me, me and my clique?


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			The outcome from this forum (excluding those who have been supportive and offered constructive advice.

- Your horse has a serious issue and needs retraining
- Kicking is acceptable.
- The judge did not mean the positives on your test sheet.

I think I've had enough. I took an inexperienced excitable horse on his second time out. He showed a massive improvement, was marked down for tension on some of movements, but still received a respectable score and the judge clearly thought he had potential. I was happy and delighted with this.

I'm absolutely gutted. I would appreciate you all just leaving me alone now. You've now finally succeeded in absolutely ruining it for me.
		
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No, sorry, not letting that go.

1. tension is a serious issue, in that you can't just ignore it, you have to address it as your horse's rider and trainer, that's your job. It's not a disaster, it's not going to mean you won't have a great future, it's just that you must take the issue seriously in order to help the horse to progress.

2. there are multiple reasons why riders might use a noticeable leg aid, whether that be nerves, inattentive or inadequately trained horses and we have ALL agreed that the ideal is to teach the horse and rider to be able to use a light aid. But it's often a work in progress, same as your tension issue.

3. the judge did give you positive comments but when you have judged or written for judges or just read a lot of your own test sheets, critically, you can see that they have stock phrases which translate to a gentle nudge about areas that need to be improved, generally written in a positive way so as not to make riders feel hopeless.

you can choose how you respond to this, none of us can control that, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record you are the one who is whipping up all the hyperbole here and making yourself upset.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			No, sorry, not letting that go.

1. tension is a serious issue, in that you can't just ignore it, you have to address it as your horse's rider and trainer, that's your job. It's not a disaster, it's not going to mean you won't have a great future, it's just that you must take the issue seriously in order to help the horse to progress.

2. there are multiple reasons why riders might use a noticeable leg aid, whether that be nerves, inattentive or inadequately trained horses and we have ALL agreed that the ideal is to teach the horse and rider to be able to use a light aid. But it's often a work in progress, same as your tension issue.

3. the judge did give you positive comments but when you have judged or written for judges or just read a lot of your own test sheets, critically, you can see that they have stock phrases which translate to a gentle nudge about areas that need to be improved, generally written in a positive way so as not to make riders feel hopeless.

you can choose how you respond to this, none of us can control that, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record you are the one who is whipping up all the hyperbole here and making yourself upset.
		
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Itâ€™s his second test, showing a huge improvement. And now we were â€œhopelessâ€ and the comments were kind.

Iâ€™m gutted. In tears. If you canâ€™t see you should back off now, then I have no words.


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## PapaverFollis (21 December 2018)

What did you want people to say?


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			hyperbole
		
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Oooh, I love that word. Not one I would ever use, I would not be able to spell it. When I see it I have to play at pronouncing it different ways. Nice word! TBF when I do dressage writing I have to write the word "Rhythm" on the top of the clipboard as that one is hard enough.


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## Meowy Catkin (21 December 2018)

M - turn off your phone/tablet/computer and go and do something nice. I don't get why you are continuing to read and post on the thread if it's upsetting you that much?

I can only understand it by imagining that continuing is a form of self-flagellation or possibly a game/trolling.


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## J_sarahd (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Itâ€™s his second test, showing a huge improvement. And now we were â€œhopelessâ€ and the comments were kind.

Iâ€™m gutted. In tears. If you canâ€™t see you should back off now, then I have no words.
		
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No one is being rude to you. They are giving you answers to your original question. Please log off HHO


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Itâ€™s his second test, showing a huge improvement. And now we were â€œhopelessâ€ and the comments were kind.

Iâ€™m gutted. In tears. If you canâ€™t see you should back off now, then I have no words.
		
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since you appear to have so much insider knowledge of HHO for a new poster, you will be well aware that threads tend to run and run even long after the OP has flounced from it.  I'm sorry you feel upset. No one has tried to upset you.

It seems that you have taken the challenges to your assertion that apparently "lazy horses" should score poor marks in competition to mean that people think your inexperienced horse is rubbish, none of that is true - tbh the 2 issues should be taken in isolation as they are only loosely related and more complicated than simply appearing to be opposites.  I don't think horses are on a spectrum from tense to lazy, I don't think those 2 are directly linked to each other, as oldie said you can have a tense horse that is behind your leg as much as a lazy horse that bogs off with you.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			since you appear to have so much insider knowledge of HHO for a new poster, you will be well aware that threads tend to run and run even long after the OP has flounced from it.  I'm sorry you feel upset. No one has tried to upset you.

It seems that you have taken the challenges to your assertion that apparently "lazy horses" should score poor marks in competition to mean that people think your inexperienced horse is rubbish, none of that is true - tbh the 2 issues should be taken in isolation as they are only loosely related and more complicated than simply appearing to be opposites.  I don't think horses are on a spectrum from tense to lazy, I don't think those 2 are directly linked to each other, as oldie said you can have a tense horse that is behind your leg as much as a lazy horse that bogs off with you.
		
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Again. Misquoting. I never at any stage suggested a spectrum of tense vs lazy, although you can argued that for excitable and forward vs lazy. And I agree with your latter point which was kind of part of my point but oh well.

I absolutely give up and you still canâ€™t stop can you? Youâ€™ve actually no idea of how you can upset them by trashing their horse, their test sheet. 

Even if you thought that, what a horrible thing to say. The judge didnâ€™t mean the positive  things she said.


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## ester (21 December 2018)

We haven't seen your test sheet or your horse to trash.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

eh??? OP I think you must be having a funny turn or something. 

you were the one who started the post comparing tense with lazy horses.

Who has rubbished your horse or your test sheet?!  no one!


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## splashgirl45 (21 December 2018)

i have read every post on here and have got the impression that kicking is NOT desirable,but happens for various reasons/ tension is NOT desirable but happens for various reasons..why can you not see that? . people have given their honest opinions to answer the original question and i think this has been repeated time and time again.... i have tried to give good advice as i have many years of experience dealing with both types of horse ... i will not flounce off but have now got fed up and am going out with my dogs !!!!!!!

oh was going out, but red must agree with you i cant spell the R word either, it drives me mad!!!!  now im going out before it is too dark......


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			eh??? OP I think you must be having a funny turn or something.

you were the one who started the post comparing tense with lazy horses.

Who has rubbished your horse or your test sheet?!  no one!
		
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No. I compared an excitable and resultingly somewhat tense but obedient novice on its second time out to a lazy horse that was unreponsive to the aids,' leaning on the rider and being kicked around the arena.

Again, you know what? However strongly your views are held, to tell someone that a judge probably did not mean their positive comments is plain spiteful and nasty. It's designed to hurt someone's feelings.

What's even worse is that I think you assume you are talking to a novice rider. You've made a lot of assumptions. I'm not, I'm also not at all new to dressage and although you have me in tears I'm still confident in what my trainer and I are achieving in this horse who is not easy and we'll continue to move forwards. A novice rider would be absolutely destroyed by what you've said.


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## J_sarahd (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			No. I compared an excitable and resultingly somewhat tense but obedient novice on its second time out to a lazy horse that was unreponsive to the aids,' leaning on the rider and being kicked around the arena.

Again, you know what? However strongly your views are held, to tell someone that a judge probably did not mean their positive comments is plain spiteful and nasty. It's designed to hurt someone's feelings.

What's even worse is that I think you assume you are talking to a novice rider. You've made a lot of assumptions. I'm not, I'm also not at all new to dressage and although you have me in tears I'm still confident in what my trainer and I are achieving in this horse who is not easy and we'll continue to move forwards. A novice rider would be absolutely destroyed by what you've said.
		
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Judges arenâ€™t lying when they say those things. But like others have said, they say positive things to encourage you.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

J_sarahd said:



			Judges arenâ€™t lying when they say those things. But like others have said, they say positive things to encourage you.
		
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I think you've said enough. You really don't know when to stop the attack do you?


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## Meowy Catkin (21 December 2018)

What attack?


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## J_sarahd (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			I think you've said enough. You really don't know when to stop the attack do you?
		
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Iâ€™m trying to be nice and tell you that judges arenâ€™t lying


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

J_sarahd said:



			Iâ€™m trying to be nice and tell you that judges arenâ€™t lying
		
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I think it's a bit late for that.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			No. I compared an excitable and resultingly somewhat tense but obedient novice on its second time out to a lazy horse that was unreponsive to the aids,' leaning on the rider and being kicked around the arena.

Again, you know what? However strongly your views are held, to tell someone that a judge probably did not mean their positive comments is plain spiteful and nasty. It's designed to hurt someone's feelings.

What's even worse is that I think you assume you are talking to a novice rider. You've made a lot of assumptions. I'm not, I'm also not at all new to dressage and although you have me in tears I'm still confident in what my trainer and I are achieving in this horse who is not easy and we'll continue to move forwards. A novice rider would be absolutely destroyed by what you've said.
		
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Don't tell me what I have assumed and what I haven't, again, you objected strongly to people putting words in your mouth earlier so do the rest of us the same favour and don't do it to other people   it's not conducive to a productive discussion.

No one has said the judge didn't mean their positive comments. if they didn't mean them they didn't have written them. But you need to be able to interpret them and Red gave a pretty good explanation of what the often-used phrases mean.

I don't care if you're an unaff prelim rider or riding at GP, tbh by asking the question you did, you have kind of given off the vibes of someone without a deep understanding or knowledge of competitive dressage, and I would say that because most people I know who are really into their sport have done quite a bit of reading around the subject or attended training to develop their understanding of the rules, aims and scoring mechanisms. if you are a highly experienced competition rider at the higher levels then I would say it would help you if you took a few days off competing to attend some of those training days because it takes away some of the mysteries like the question you asked at the beginning.


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## J_sarahd (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			I think it's a bit late for that.
		
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None of us have been rude to you. I donâ€™t understand how you donâ€™t see that. We are trying to help/answer your question. Itâ€™s you who is being defensive and rude


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			Don't tell me what I have assumed and what I haven't, again, you objected strongly to people putting words in your mouth earlier so do the rest of us the same favour and don't do it to other people   it's not conducive to a productive discussion.

No one has said the judge didn't mean their positive comments. if they didn't mean them they didn't have written them. But you need to be able to interpret them and Red gave a pretty good explanation of what the often-used phrases mean.

I don't care if you're an unaff prelim rider or riding at GP, tbh by asking the question you did, you have kind of given off the vibes of someone without a deep understanding or knowledge of competitive dressage, and I would say that because most people I know who are really into their sport have done quite a bit of reading around the subject or attended training to develop their understanding of the rules, aims and scoring mechanisms. if you are a highly experienced competition rider at the higher levels then I would say it would help you if you took a few days off competing to attend some of those training days because it takes away some of the mysteries like the question you asked at the beginning.
		
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This is exactly what I meant. You just can't help yourself.
We haven't discussed the rules of dressage at all in the post.
We discussed excitable vs lazy; and tbh the truth is that as some have stated on this thread, it's not a black and white issue, much depends on the judge, the horse and what happens on the day.
I posted to generate some debate which is why I asked for "thoughts." I was interested in different viewpoints and expressed my own which is apparently not allowed.

If we are getting personal, I believe you are not as knowledgeable as the image you like to purport. Kicking is a no-no - even beginners are taught not to kick, and denials aside, you advocated it. Further, if you thought I was a novice, why on earth would you seek to discourage a novice rider by telling them a judge will only make positive comments to stop you feeling "hopeless." Bloody awful.

Nothwithstanding all that, if I knew I was upsetting you to point of tears with my comments, I would back off. I clearly love and want the best for my horse, who is clearly making progress and is it really necessary to keep on sticking the boot in because you disagree with me?


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## ester (21 December 2018)

We've definitely discussed aims and scoring mechanisms though, you could maybe go just for that bit, if you are ok with the rules.

If I was upset to the point of tears on an internet thread then I would back off to make myself feel better.


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## Lexi_ (21 December 2018)

Quietly chuckling to myself at the thought that milliepops isnâ€™t knowledgable...


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## Ouch05 (21 December 2018)

Twice I have replied as have others about kick along horses and that there may be a reason behind it but you have not commented or replied back but picked up on what others have said about how tension is viewed by a judge.

Some excellent answers really interesting I agree that a tense horse can often be behind the led and also be held together by the rider. I am not saying you do this. 

I will also add my trainer will often shout at me to â€˜give it a bootâ€™ when he is being a knob to send it forward to gets his attention back on me or when he just blantently (sp) ignores me or my nice gentle aid. He riders to GP.

I did see a judge once come out the box and speak to a lady for over abuse of aids the girl left the arena in tears and so she should it was horrid to watch.

You donâ€™t say where the event was and also if you thought that the kicking was excessive you should of spoken to the organisers at the time. Was this one person or many?

Not one person on here has said that excessive kicking is acceptable at all. 

I always get lovely partnerships and nice willing horse.

I have seen judges with cards with the stock phases on that they use to help them out did doesnâ€™t mean they donâ€™t mean it.

Last comment the judge would have no idea it was your second event. So they would only mark what they saw and that was tension.


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## ester (21 December 2018)

Lexi_ said:



			Quietly chuckling to myself at the thought that milliepops isnâ€™t knowledgable...
		
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she just sprinkles magic dust around herself instead.


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## DabDab (21 December 2018)

Lexi_ said:



			Quietly chuckling to myself at the thought that milliepops isnâ€™t knowledgable...
		
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Or would ever be considered to be bullying anyone. She's literally one of the loveliest posters.


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Again, you know what? However strongly your views are held, to tell someone that a judge probably did not mean their positive comments is plain spiteful and nasty. It's designed to hurt someone's feelings.
		
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noone is saying a judge is lying.

I actually rooted out four  old tests on the tense horse, just out of curiosity. the difference in the phrasing from before and after we cracked the tension is really interesting

Before:
_Horse has got nice paces, lovely walk. But quite tense, needs to relax and go more softly into the contact

Nice horse with lots of potential, a bit tense at times_

After:
_I love this horse! A happy athlete and he is so willing. Well done. Steps a little hurried at times today_

_What a lovely attitude this horse shows, with super paces. Really positive and forward thinking, Just make sure he doesn't get a little downhill in frame_

Even those before comments are positive, all i did was target relaxation in my training, and pinpoint what he was struggling with and what *I* was doing that was making it worse when I was riding tests.  The difference in the comments shows the mental breakthrough the horse made in regards to his whole dressage experience.

I think to really be a good competition rider you need to put your own ego and feelings aside and be clinical in analysing the feedback you are getting from your rounds and what can be improved.


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

I am really happy that you re happy with your horse. I have never seen your horse so can't comment on your actual horse, but thought we were having a discussion on tension V laziness. 

Often I see threads where I disagree with what people are doing or thinking but people are happy and are clear that they are putting up a happy post. I therefore don't pour cold water on it, and just make a happy post back. If I really disagree with something and think it is causing serious harm/danger then I may say something, but otherwise I either leave a happy comment or don't comment at all. 

Had you come on and said "I am so happy with my horse, we had a terrible time last time with crabbing and cantering off down the centre line, but this time he was much better and was so obedient,"  then you would have got very different replies. I think we would all have been very happy for you. 

You asked a question and I, and others have done our best to explain our points of view. I don't really understand how you come to see that as you being rubbished, especially as you kept asking for further explanation. I do think that your accusations of bullying and telling people that they have been under discussion in private messages is off kilter. 

Personally I am really happy that you are happy with your horse, and confident in your training program. I do think that many good comments have been made that are worthy of further thought.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			noone is saying a judge is lying.

I actually rooted out four  old tests on the tense horse, just out of curiosity. the difference in the phrasing from before and after we cracked the tension is really interesting

Before:
_Horse has got nice paces, lovely walk. But quite tense, needs to relax and go more softly into the contact_

_Nice horse with lots of potential, a bit tense at times_

After:
_I love this horse! A happy athlete and he is so willing. Well done. Steps a little hurried at times today_

_What a lovely attitude this horse shows, with super paces. Really positive and forward thinking, Just make sure he doesn't get a little downhill in frame_

Even those before comments are positive, all i did was target relaxation in my training, and pinpoint what he was struggling with and what *I* was doing that was making it worse when I was riding tests.  The difference in the comments shows the mental breakthrough the horse made in regards to his whole dressage experience.

I think to really be a good competition rider you need to put your own ego and feelings aside and be clinical in analysing the feedback you are getting from your rounds and what can be improved.
		
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There is absolutely nothing I disagree with there.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			This is exactly what I meant. You just can't help yourself.
		
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i'm not sure what you mean tbh, the forum is here for us all to use, people will respond to posts on here, that's kind of the point 




			We haven't discussed the rules of dressage at all in the post.
		
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I would say we definitely have done, many people including me have discussed the structure of score sheets, the judging criteria and the collective marks, if those don't constitute rules then I'm not sure what you think they are there for?




			I was interested in different viewpoints and expressed my own which is apparently not allowed.
		
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the only person that has told people to stop posting is you, no one has said you may not hold your own views, it just happens that many of us don't share them for various reasons already explained in detail upthread





			Kicking is a no-no - even beginners are taught not to kick, and denials aside, you advocated it. Further, if you thought I was a novice, why on earth would you seek to discourage a novice rider by telling them a judge will only make positive comments to stop you feeling "hopeless." Bloody awful.

Nothwithstanding all that, if I knew I was upsetting you to point of tears with my comments, I would back off. I clearly love and want the best for my horse, who is clearly making progress and is it really necessary to keep on sticking the boot in because you disagree with me?
		
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this is all a fascinating and apparently deliberate goading. ..   anyway, I've already asked you to fish out the thread where I advocated kicking, thus far you haven't bothered so I am going to assume you can't find any such post.

Likewise I never said judges only make positive comments to stop riders feeling hopeless, actually tickled that you have managed to twist it round to that, but virtually any judge will tell you they try to couch their comments in a positive tone, so you had <ventures into the dangerous territory of paraphrasing> lovely horse who will do well when he stops being tense, i.e. a positive phrase... the alternative way of saying that is that he was too tense to do good work today i.e. a negative phrase which would make a novice feel disheartened. See what they did there?

Literally no one is sticking any boots anywhere


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			There is absolutely nothing I disagree with there.
		
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Millypops "positive comments to stop the rider feeling hopeless"


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

ester said:



			she just sprinkles magic dust around herself instead.
		
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oi, don't give away all my secrets!


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

PS - One of my best comments in affiliated dressage was "Rider has good glue!" 

It was a goddam awful test, horse was far too fresh, it was indoors and not much space round the outside, horse touched a board before we even entered at A and exploded, then the sun came out and made light spots, causing an unauthorised rein back at a halt at C, then he exploded and did a diagonal in 3 bucks instead of a simple change...

2nd test of the day we got 5 points though, after a lot of extra warmup time (and someone came out to the car park and tried to buy him, if they had asked an hour earlier I dare say I would have accepted!!!).

I would not take it personally OP, it is all a learning curve, good days and bad days. Horses are great levellers. They are to be enjoyed. Celebrate your improvements and successes.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			I am really happy that you re happy with your horse. I have never seen your horse so can't comment on your actual horse, but thought we were having a discussion on tension V laziness.

Often I see threads where I disagree with what people are doing or thinking but people are happy and are clear that they are putting up a happy post. I therefore don't pour cold water on it, and just make a happy post back. If I really disagree with something and think it is causing serious harm/danger then I may say something, but otherwise I either leave a happy comment or don't comment at all.

Had you come on and said "I am so happy with my horse, we had a terrible time last time with crabbing and cantering off down the centre line, but this time he was much better and was so obedient,"  then you would have got very different replies. I think we would all have been very happy for you.

You asked a question and I, and others have done our best to explain our points of view. I don't really understand how you come to see that as you being rubbished, especially as you kept asking for further explanation. I do think that your accusations of bullying and telling people that they have been under discussion in private messages is off kilter.

Personally I am really happy that you are happy with your horse, and confident in your training program. I do think that many good comments have been made that are worthy of further thought.
		
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Finding it interesting that an apparently BD listed judge would support and indeed make similar comments in which a rider is told that the judge does not mean the positive comments on the sheet and in fact they are there so that the rider does not "feel hopeless."

As for discussion under PM, I was messaged and informed that Ester, Cortez and a few others have been known to engage in bullying.

I agree there have been some useful comments. Again I have personally thanked those people for them.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Millypops "positive comments to stop the rider feeling hopeless"
		
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play fair  here's the exact quote.  I dug THIS one out to save you the bother.


milliepops said:



			. the judge did give you positive comments but when you have judged or written for judges or just read a lot of your own test sheets, critically, *you can see that they have stock phrases which translate to a gentle nudge about areas that need to be improved, generally written in a positive way so as not to make riders feel hopeless*.
		
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where does that even suggest that the comments are insincere?


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## HufflyPuffly (21 December 2018)

DabDab said:



			Or would ever be considered to be bullying anyone. She's literally one of the loveliest posters.
		
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Having met MP in person I can vouch that actually she is rubbish, has no idea about dressage and is really rude ......








(joking obviously, though I think she should share the magic dust I'd love to get my bonkers cart horse to the level she's achieved . This thread has also served as fascinating reading whilst I wait the minutes away until I'm finished for Christmas)


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## ester (21 December 2018)

yup thought we weren't supposed to paraphrase.

I do get right confused what people actually mean when they apparently reply to themselves.

AH you forgot how much she bullies you. 

Ps I do think your black bird is an excellent lesson in tension.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			play fair  here's the exact quote.  I dug THIS one out to save you the bother.


where does that even suggest that the comments are insincere?
		
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You think that doesn't come across that way. You know exactly how it did (and was intended to come across)


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## ester (21 December 2018)

Ah yes MP, you know your intentions are definitely what the OP says, you can't possibly know what you actually meant...


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Oh, enough.

Wasted enough time on this. Enjoy your little coven.

Thanks (once again)  to those who genuinely debated/offered some useful tips for my boy.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			You think that doesn't come across that way. You know exactly how it did (and was intended to come across)
		
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nope, utterly mystified by this one. would you prefer it if the judges didn't write their comments in a positive way?  Baffling.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

AlexHyde said:



			This thread has also served as fascinating reading whilst I wait the minutes away until I'm finished for Christmas)
		
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amen!  it's almost home time!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			You think that doesn't come across that way. You know exactly how it did (and was intended to come across)
		
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I must be on ignore,  but please, go and have a a cup of tea,  do your horse or something , you are digging way too hard to prod someone into responding harshly.

Please note,  I have reported your posts where you are flaming and insulting forum users,  it's against Ts and Cs  and I hope tfc deals appropriately


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## Goldenstar (21 December 2018)

Ester and Cortez bullies !!!! What a load of complete rot .


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## Bernster (21 December 2018)

I suspect itâ€™s a bit too late to get the popcorn out?


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

it's never too late Bernster!  what kind have you got? something appropriately festive or good old sweet and salty?

( I suspect I might just have triggered ester off into another food related minefield again, how are you with sweet and salty things, e?)


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## ester (21 December 2018)

I don't really like salty, just sayin'


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

ester said:



			I don't really like salty, just sayin'
		
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She doesn't like you, either


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## Bernster (21 December 2018)

ester said:



			I don't really like salty, just sayin'
		
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Eek!  Def sweet for me. But on second thoughts Iâ€™m going to go all festive and get out some NUTS ðŸ¤£


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## ihatework (21 December 2018)

Bernster said:



			Eek!  Def sweet for me. But on second thoughts Iâ€™m going to go all festive and get out some NUTS ðŸ¤£
		
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Hey, who are you calling Nuts?????


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

I fancy some fruitcake.


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## DirectorFury (21 December 2018)

Well this thread took a turn...
MP I've been meaning to ask you for ages - what width is your dressage saddle? Kira looks a similar size/shape to M and a very cheap +2 has come up


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

"NUTS" and a "fruitcake."

And you say you aren't bullies. This is disgusting beyond words. I've reported this. You actually couldn't know if a poster suffered from depression or with other mental health issues. 

What a spiteful little gang.


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## Goldenstar (21 December 2018)

I am having a nut free Christmas said she wearing her best virtuous face .


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## Goldenstar (21 December 2018)

And a Merry Christmas to you all.


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## oldie48 (21 December 2018)

Please don't go, I should be doing the ironing and then wrapping presents but this is much more interesting. On the subject of positive comments the best I've seen was when daughter was riding a very fit and fresh horse at a ODE, the horse bucked then spooked violently and jumped the boards, daughter came out the side door. Judge's comment was "well done for staying in the arena even when the horse didn't!"


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			And a Merry Christmas to you all.
		
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Ta, and to you all too ðŸ˜Ž
Can I have coffee cake please,  popcorn disagrees with my teeth ðŸ˜Š (also without nuts, I don't do them this week)


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

oldie48 said:



			... On the subject of positive comments the best I've seen was when daughter was riding a very fit and fresh horse at a ODE, the horse bucked then spooked violently and jumped the boards, daughter came out the side door. Judge's comment was "well done for staying in the arena even when the horse didn't!"
		
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Best one yet!!!


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

DirectorFury said:



			Well this thread took a turn...
MP I've been meaning to ask you for ages - what width is your dressage saddle? Kira looks a similar size/shape to M and a very cheap +2 has come up 

Click to expand...

My equipe is a +1 and fractionally too wide for kira


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

My most hated comment is "Tactfully ridden" as I know I have given that comment where a horse needed telling and the rider just sat there and survived the experience!


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			I am having a nut free Christmas said she wearing her best virtuous face .
		
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That sounds good, they give me a headache and I hate the way they get stuck in yer  teeth ðŸ˜±


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## Goldenstar (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			"NUTS" and a "fruitcake."

And you say you aren't bullies. This is disgusting beyond words. I've reported this. You actually couldn't know if a poster suffered from depression or with other mental health issues.

What a spiteful little gang.
		
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You make me regret that I took time to post things I thought might help you .


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			That sounds good, they give me a headache and I hate the way they get stuck in yer  teeth ðŸ˜±
		
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I became allergic when I was in my twenties.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			My most hated comment is "Tactfully ridden" as I know I have given that comment where a horse needed telling and the rider just sat there and survived the experience!
		
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You just know, as a rider, when you are going to pick up your sheet and see that comment ðŸ˜‚


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## blitznbobs (21 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			Ester and Cortez bullies !!!!.
		
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Now that is funny ...ðŸ˜…ðŸ˜…ðŸ˜…


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## blitznbobs (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			"NUTS" and a "fruitcake."

And you say you aren't bullies. This is disgusting beyond words. I've reported this. You actually couldn't know if a poster suffered from depression or with other mental health issues.

What a spiteful little gang.
		
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This is a joke right??


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

My fave comment was after k had a meltdown during the warm up test at the home international. Judge described it as stage fright...
Fellow competitor stopped me outside the ring and said "you did well to keep going..."
I'm sure she thought she was being supportive rather than pitying ðŸ˜‚ unfortunately kira is a rather distinctive horse, it's not like you can shrink into the background and hope no one noticed ðŸ¤£


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

writing for a judge is honestly the best thing you could do OP. It would answer every query you have.

on another note, my little heart genuinely broke whe n I wrote for a prelim judge and realised how many 'lovely horses' were out there


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			You just know, as a rider, when you are going to pick up your sheet and see that comment ðŸ˜‚
		
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Sometimes I like it though, as it tends to mean I was only screaming on the inside!!!


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			My most hated comment is "Tactfully ridden" as I know I have given that comment where a horse needed telling and the rider just sat there and survived the experience!
		
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ha! yeah totally. its up there in jumping clinics when they say your horse is 'honest!'


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## Tiddlypom (21 December 2018)

GS, the OP is not interested in being helped but the thread has been most informative for the rest of us. One of the best for a long time, barring the wackiness.
Thanks for yours, and others, informed, posts .


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			writing for a judge is honestly the best thing you could do OP. It would answer every query you have.

on another note, my little heart genuinely broke whe n I wrote for a prelim judge and realised how many 'lovely horses' were out there

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That has genuinely made me LOL!!!


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## ester (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			"NUTS" and a "fruitcake."

And you say you aren't bullies. This is disgusting beyond words. I've reported this. You actually couldn't know if a poster suffered from depression or with other mental health issues.

What a spiteful little gang.
		
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You donâ€™t know either yet it hasnâ€™t stopped you being rude despite your claims of being polite. 

Sorry salty!


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## Goldenstar (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			You just know, as a rider, when you are going to pick up your sheet and see that comment ðŸ˜‚
		
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Indeed you do and the odd time I judge ( only unaffiliated ) I try not to use it but it does exactly say what you need to In two words


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			ha! yeah totally. its up there in jumping clinics when they say your horse is 'honest!'
		
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I don't mind this, as it means that although my horse has to put up with me riding like a numpty, at least he is not scared or hurt, or feeling in mortal danger. I kind of give myself kudos for training honesty in!


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## ester (21 December 2018)

I always interpret it as steered and everyone survived ðŸ¤£


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## Auslander (21 December 2018)

I'm only here for the popcorn - but I have gin if required. Gin is terribly good for soothing ruffled feathers


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## ihatework (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			My fave comment was after k had a meltdown during the warm up test at the home international. Judge described it as stage fright...
Fellow competitor stopped me outside the ring and said "you did well to keep going..."
I'm sure she thought she was being supportive rather than pitying ðŸ˜‚ unfortunately kira is a rather distinctive horse, it's not like you can shrink into the background and hope no one noticed ðŸ¤£
		
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That was my best (worst) tension meltdown. Medium freestyle regionals. We took the definition of freestyle to the extreme. Not a good day ðŸ˜Ÿ


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Auslander said:



			I'm only here for the popcorn - but I have gin if required. Gin is terribly good for soothing ruffled feathers
		
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 More like petrol on a BBQ, IME.


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

I write "Showed some XXXXXX today" when you just know that it is not just TODAY that the XXXXX is shown, but it is more tactful to presume that XXXXX happening is a one off, totally only happened that once, today, such a shame!


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## Goldenstar (21 December 2018)

Snowflake look snowflakes


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## Bernster (21 December 2018)

Oh wowzers IHW that is impressive hind end work anyway !


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## DirectorFury (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			My equipe is a +1 and fractionally too wide for kira
		
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Brill, thank you . 

The worst (or best, depends on outlook) I had was just 'brave!' underlined a few times. M spent more time on her hind legs than actually doing the test.
Re: overly positive comments to encourage people - I once had 77.8% at unaff Prelim. The test was barely worth 55% but the judge had seen me warming up (aka dealing with lunacy in those days) and I think felt sorry for me! I could've taken those marks and comments at face value and decided we were awesome but I had enough self-awareness to know that the score wasn't reflective of the test.


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## Goldenstar (21 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			ha! yeah totally. its up there in jumping clinics when they say your horse is 'honest!'
		
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Yup , I like that one ... I know heâ€™s never stolen a thing .
When they say I really love his face you know you are really in trouble .


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## Auslander (21 December 2018)

A very eminent judge once wrote "Wheeeeeeeee" on my test sheet...


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## sportsmansB (21 December 2018)

Right all I still have 20 mins left in work... can anyone point me towards any more old threads like this as this has been the most entertaining hour at work??!!

I, as many others, tried to respond thoughtfully at an earlier stage, was shot down, swiftly gave up and then just returned this afternoon to see what had happened...


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

ihatework said:



			That was my best (worst) tension meltdown. Medium freestyle regionals. We took the definition of freestyle to the extreme. Not a good day ðŸ˜Ÿ
		
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Shows good energy and athleticism. Airs above ground not required at this level....


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## blitznbobs (21 December 2018)

I had piaffe not required at this level ... when asked for a walk to canter in an elem.... but to be honest it was pretty shit piaffe so Iâ€™m glad it wasnâ€™t required... Iâ€™ve also had a â€˜well sat â€˜ or2


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 December 2018)

Auslander said:



			I'm only here for the popcorn - but I have gin if required. Gin is terribly good for soothing ruffled feathers
		
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I'm on the raspberry with fever tree tonic, cheers


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## blitznbobs (21 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			I'm on the raspberry with fever tree tonic, cheers 

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And Iâ€™m just about to crack open this years first bottle of sloe ... itâ€™s been a weird week but am seriously loving the weirdness of this thread...


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## splashgirl45 (21 December 2018)

well i have written what i thought were helpful posts and had no comments although OP said he/.she had thanked those who had given helpful posts, mine were all ignored......  my suggestion of writing for judges received no acknowledgement or response to say it was a good idea or not........for someone who is supposed to be experienced and not new to dressage i find some of the comments very strange, and after reading a lot of the posts again, i still cant see any bullying or nasty comments and the only rude comments seem to come from the original poster....


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 December 2018)

I've had 'rider did well to keep composure during the hectic parts' for one eventing open test yrs ago..... the bugger nearly had me off. All forgiven with a dc tho


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## DabDab (21 December 2018)

Auslander said:



			I'm only here for the popcorn - but I have gin if required. Gin is terribly good for soothing ruffled feathers
		
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I had some gin flavoured popcorn once - it was disgusting


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			Yup , I like that one ... I know heâ€™s never stolen a thing .
When they say I really love his face you know you are really in trouble .
		
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HAA!!! love that!!


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			I'm on the raspberry with fever tree tonic, cheers 

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Ooh yum, I had that last night. It's rhubarb and ginger in my ginvent calendar tonight *clink* ðŸ¥‚


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

Mr Red Nose bought some Bailey's. Not sure that is good for the diet, but I had forgotten how sip-able it is!


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Iâ€™d actually



splashgirl45 said:



			well i have written what i thought were helpful posts and had no comments although OP said he/.she had thanked those who had given helpful posts, mine were all ignored......  my suggestion of writing for judges received no acknowledgement or response to say it was a good idea or not........for someone who is supposed to be experienced and not new to dressage i find some of the comments very strange, and after reading a lot of the posts again, i still cant see any bullying or nasty comments and the only rude comments seem to come from the

Which comments specifically?
		
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## splashgirl45 (21 December 2018)

dont try and start on me now,  you have called people liars more than once...but again you still havent responded to any of my earlier posts just that tiny bit on the end of the latest post when i commented on rudeness.  you obviously only post if you can have a fight...sorry you wont get one from me, i am much too old to bother!!!!!


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

splashgirl45 said:



			dont try and start on me now,  you have called people liars more than once...but again you still havent responded to any of my earlier posts just that tiny bit on the end of the latest post when i commented on rudeness.  you obviously only post if you can have a fight...sorry you wont get one from me, i am much too old to bother!!!!!
		
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You made an accusation, I asked which comments you were referring to. That isnâ€™t â€œstarting on youâ€ 

As for writing, I did â€œlikeâ€ this post which was expressed thoughtfully and politely. Perhaps I didnâ€™t agree with the rest of your post or didnâ€™t see it.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 December 2018)

Op, I refer you to my post #332

By the way, when does school reopen?


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## Rumtytum (21 December 2018)

Is Melodra short for Melodrama ?


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## SEL (21 December 2018)

How have I only just caught up on this post???? Supposed to be going out tonight and still covered in hay and mud.

Need to confess that I dared to do a couple of prelims on a table top of a cob a few years back. She'd been driven and was so downhill I worried about losing the saddle down her neck at times. Instructor used to tell me off for flapping my legs on her so I was probably one of those people kicking away too - but she had fab (slow) rhythm and we were very accurate so didn't embarrass ourselves. Much easier than my 'eyes on stalks' Appy to do a nice test on. 

Will check back later after wine!!


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## Bernster (21 December 2018)

Oh Iâ€™m a flapper Iâ€™ll confess to that.  Mostly it doesnâ€™t make a jot of difference and itâ€™s worse when Iâ€™m jumping as then both arms and legs start going, but Iâ€™d never advocate or approve of it.  Itâ€™s something I need to train out of.  Thankfully my legs are so ineffective F just ignores me ðŸ¤£


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

SEL said:



			How have I only just caught up on this post???? Supposed to be going out tonight and still covered in hay and mud. Will check back later after wine!!
		
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It's much the best way to enjoy it.....


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## EllenJay (21 December 2018)

Brilliant thread (other than the toys out of the pram moments).  There is so much really helpful and insightful comments from the "bullying gang".

I have only just started to do a bit of dressage, only doing intros ATM, as my boy is struggling to maintain any real balance in canter.  It's coming, but definitely a work in progress.  He shows his tension by not working behind and neighing.  I know that we can get the working behind sorted, but not sure what to do about the neighing!  Comments on the sheet, last time out, included - on centre line entry "loss of straightness when neighing". I am hoping that the more he goes out and about, the more relaxed he will be, and less neighing.

Thanks again for passing on some of this invaluable insights


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

EllenJay said:



			Brilliant thread (other than the toys out of the pram moments).  There is so much really helpful and insightful comments from the "bullying gang".

I have only just started to do a bit of dressage, only doing intros ATM, as my boy is struggling to maintain any real balance in canter.  It's coming, but definitely a work in progress.  He shows his tension by not working behind and neighing.  I know that we can get the working behind sorted, but not sure what to do about the neighing!  Comments on the sheet, last time out, included - on centre line entry "loss of straightness when neighing". I am hoping that the more he goes out and about, the more relaxed he will be, and less neighing.

Thanks again for passing on some of this invaluable insights
		
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EJ I think the neighing will solve itself when he gets more relaxed and generally focused on you in a show atmosphere. IME unless they are pair bonded and travelling with their pair to the show, calling during their work tends not to be a problem once they get established. My green one will neigh now and then if she's anxious but generally doesn't break rhythm or contact to do so, which makes it less of an issue.  Keep on trucking, and don't worry about it at this stage would be my approach.


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## Goldenstar (21 December 2018)

Rumtytum said:



			Is Melodra short for Melodrama ?
		
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Ah well spotted someoneâ€™s wide awake


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## Bellaboo18 (21 December 2018)

Wow umm wow. I just sat down with a glass of wine with Olympia and thought I'd check in with the forum. I didn't see this coming....


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## splashgirl45 (21 December 2018)

not sure i am enjoying this display, enjoyed the jockeys though....


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

splashgirl45 said:



			not sure i am enjoying this display, enjoyed the jockeys though....
		
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It wasn't very nice to watch in person either,  some of those black horses were really panting ðŸ˜•


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## Bellaboo18 (21 December 2018)

splashgirl45 said:



			not sure i am enjoying this display, enjoyed the jockeys though....
		
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Loved the jockeys; I'm a showjumper riding an exracer so the reverse  Umm I always have mixed feelings about these displays...


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## splashgirl45 (21 December 2018)

the commentator said they were arabian?  look like friesan to me (the black ones)   have decided i didnt like that display...dog agility now, more my cup of tea.......think i will have a coffee though...


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## Mrs. Jingle (21 December 2018)

OP I have read right through this thread and have absolutely not one jot of worthwhile opinion to share on the subject.

However, I really do hope you are OK and regret very much that some people who have responded to your thread with great enthusiasm for critique of almost every word you wrote, failed miserably to pick up on how much they were upsetting and distressing you. I think even if they did not agree with you it might have been far wiser and far more mature to have simply backed away from this thread when it became very evident how much their somewhat harsh and frankly irrelevant responses became and had very little to do with informative opinion on your original post.

I have a tough hide and don't give a flying feck what responses I get from posting my opinion here or elsewhere - however I do recognise when someone is obviously extremely distressed and upset by an apparent concerted effort to follow the pack and wade in - yet again   Take care and I hope you have a very happy Christmas and new year and leave all this where it belongs - in la la internet land when absolutley nobody  is what they seem and like to portray..


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## Tiddlypom (21 December 2018)

Milliepops is waay better at sleuthing than I am!
TP 0, MP 1.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

... No one is what they seem... quite  ðŸ¤”
Those of us who have been round the block on HHO know who to take at face value, and who to raise an eyebrow of suspicion to ðŸ˜‰


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## shortstuff99 (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			... No one is what they seem... quite  ðŸ¤”
Those of us who have been round the block on HHO know who to take at face value, and who to raise an eyebrow of suspicion to ðŸ˜‰
		
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Is it a previous poster under another name?


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## Mrs. Jingle (21 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			... No one is what they seem... quite  ðŸ¤”
Those of us who have been round the block on HHO know who to take at face value, and who to raise an eyebrow of suspicion to ðŸ˜‰
		
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Oh do grow up for heaven's sake...are you 10???  Your suggested 'intrigue' and pride in your longevity at H&H does not one thing to excuse your cruel and shameful  behaviour shown on this thread to someone who is very obviously feeling vulnerable and in need of some slack from the more robust and hard headed posters on this forum.  I dont care who the OP is now, was before on this forum, and might be next week....the bottom line is very obvious flags were showing that this was becoming distressful and making the OP fell very, very upset and depressed.  Christ there are some real bitches in the real and internet pretend horse world for sure


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## splashgirl45 (21 December 2018)

i think i must have read a different thread to you mrs j.  i for one tried to make helpful comments which were completely ignored...and didnt read any of the threads as bullying....if posts were upsetting me i would put those who upset me on ignore and would stop posting.


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## vam (21 December 2018)

I nominate this thread as the most bonkers thread this year.
I actually feel a bit dazed after reading it as I can't relate what I've read to what the op say they have read, it like I've read something different to them. Shows how much the written word can be misinterpreted depending on your state of mind.
Found it interesting thou even for  confirmed showjumper.


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## ester (21 December 2018)

I hated Santi the last time he came (with a rather lame arab), I went three times that year and it didn't improve for watching.
I couldn't understand how sweated up and breathless the friesians were on Weds, and I was genuinely concerned for the one who both times struggled to lie down from the 'sit' position and get stuck in a rather contorted position, he also had padded fronts.

There was one part of the act that he did on dressage day they didn't do wednesday re. one horse standing on the other but still not a single one appreciated dogs jumping over it.

I do like the glut of gingers from the French and the Azerbajani's though who couldn't get there for weds.


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## ester (21 December 2018)

MrsJingle said:



			Oh do grow up for heaven's sake...are you 10???  Your suggested 'intrigue' and pride in your longevity at H&H does not one thing to excuse your cruel and shameful  behaviour shown on this thread to someone who is very obviously feeling vulnerable and in need of some slack from the more robust and hard headed posters on this forum.  I dont care who the OP is now, was before on this forum, and might be next week....the bottom line is very obvious flags were showing that this was becoming distressful and making the OP fell very, very upset and depressed.  Christ there are some real bitches in the real and internet pretend horse world for sure 

Click to expand...


And it was suggested many times by several people that she perhaps take a break if she was struggling/getting that upset, people are able to take responsibility for their own actions.


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## emfen1305 (21 December 2018)

Aside from the madness, in case anyone has seen the recommendations for writing for a judge then absolutely do it, it is the MOST USEFUL thing I have done. I write every month for my RC, usually prelim and novice as I compete in intro and prelim and watching 15 different horses do the same test has really helped me understand what they are looking for and how to interpret the comments. The judges have always been so friendly and more than happy to answer questions and discuss their feedback (after the test has finished) and once they know you are interested they will talk you through what they like and why which is basically like having a free lesson!

FWIW I have met MP in person and she was nothing like she is being described on here, she was lovely, helpful, and very knowledgeable and I have progressed my horse using her advice. I have not met Ester in person but she has always been very helpful over PM. I think something odd is going on but just wanted to contribute as felt it was right to!


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## JFTDWS (21 December 2018)

*Wanders in, looks round at the warped reality in here...  Backs out looking confused*

Well, I suppose the first few pages were interesting, even if the best posts do all come from a bunch of reprehensible bullies.  Apparently...


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## ester (21 December 2018)

Totally agree emfen, I'm hoping to do some more while I have the time at some point. Though writing for rural riders (7 at once) was quite entertaining to say the least!


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## PapaverFollis (21 December 2018)

I'm just slightly jealous cos no one sends me PMs. ðŸ˜‚


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## emfen1305 (21 December 2018)

ester said:



			Totally agree emfen, I'm hoping to do some more while I have the time at some point. Though writing for rural riders (7 at once) was quite entertaining to say the least!
		
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This is the problem I have now, I was writing before I started competing there (just to make sure I wouldnt make a total fool of myself if I went over) but now I want to compete in the tests I write for - I'm wondering about volunteering for other places but not sure that is the done thing?


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## emfen1305 (21 December 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			I'm just slightly jealous cos no one sends me PMs. ðŸ˜‚
		
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HA this is quite ironic given I've just sent you a message  (for anyone wondering, not about other members of HHO but about my cob's shoulders, a thrilling read!)


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## PapaverFollis (21 December 2018)

emfen1305 said:



			HA this is quite ironic given I've just sent you a message  (for anyone wondering, not about other members of HHO but about my cob's shoulders, a thrilling read!)
		
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Literally the little red" 1" came up as I pressed "post reply".  ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

emfen1305 said:



			This is the problem I have now, I was writing before I started competing there (just to make sure I wouldnt make a total fool of myself if I went over) but now I want to compete in the tests I write for - I'm wondering about volunteering for other places but not sure that is the done thing?
		
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I can't think that volunteering to write anywhere would be anything but good. 

I did some writing for a BD judge in training. That was interesting as the BD judge also judged, then the score sheets were compared. That was indeed like a free lesson.


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## JFTDWS (21 December 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			I'm just slightly jealous cos no one sends me PMs. ðŸ˜‚
		
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I'm just here to be accused of bullying.  I reckon if they accuse me and Aus, they've got a full house


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## emfen1305 (21 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			I can't think that volunteering to write anywhere would be anything but good.

I did some writing for a BD judge in training. That was interesting as the BD judge also judged, then the score sheets were compared. That was indeed like a free lesson.
		
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I think I'll look in the New Year, there are quite a few venues near me so it is worth dropping them a message. Ooh that sounds fun, I just really enjoy doing it, much more than I did stewarding for showing as you don't really get much out of the judges there!


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## Tiddlypom (21 December 2018)

emfen1305 said:



			I'm wondering about volunteering for other places but not sure that is the done thing?
		
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Do volunteer elsewhere as well, organisers will bite your hand off! I have done a fair bit of scribing for BE, the events are always looking for new helpers.


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## Red-1 (21 December 2018)

emfen1305 said:



			I think I'll look in the New Year, there are quite a few venues near me so it is worth dropping them a message. Ooh that sounds fun, I just really enjoy doing it, much more than I did stewarding for showing as you don't really get much out of the judges there!
		
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I am sorry as I don't know your preferred sport, but it may be good to volunteer to judge at a BE event too, as that is different again.


ETA - Ooops, cross posted with TP!


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## Bellaboo18 (21 December 2018)

As someone that can't be accused of being in any clique (I'm a new member) I'll  throw my opinion in to the mix. We all love our horses, all have our own opinions and can easily take others opinions to heart. However, Melodra has unfortunately taken a very defensive approach when I feel people were genuinely trying to help. There's little point in asking for people's opinions when you only have one answer you want to hear. Mrs Jingle, it's nice to see you've got Melodras back but what about the harsh words she said about others? 
'I believe you are not as knowledgeable as the image you like to purport.' Ouch and very personal.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

emfen1305 said:



			I think I'll look in the New Year, there are quite a few venues near me so it is worth dropping them a message. Ooh that sounds fun, I just really enjoy doing it, much more than I did stewarding for showing as you don't really get much out of the judges there!
		
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Definitely do, I think venues are usually crying out for helpers and writing is such a useful insight into the sport. When you get yourself known as a useful bod in the area then it's easy to get picked to write at regionals etc which is even more useful.  I like writing for a judge somewhere other than c for the different perspective you get.


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## Tiddlypom (21 December 2018)

MrsJingle said:



			Christ there are some real bitches in the real and internet pretend horse world for sure 

Click to expand...

There certainly are.


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## splashgirl45 (21 December 2018)

at least my post re writing for a judge has some other people who agree that it is so helpful to watch the whole class and therefore understand where the judge is coming from......at the beginning i couldnt understand why a horse which was going ok and made no mistakes ended up behind a better moving horse who had mistakes....once i wrote for a judge i realised that the horse that made a couple of mistakes was going so much better for the rest of the test and was getting at least 1 mark per movement more and therefore the few marks they lost were not as much as the extra marks he earned the rest of the test.... i find writing for the judge very interesting and enjoyable even though i dont compete anymore...


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Totally agree splashgirl I really find it so useful and sometimes writing for a class you don't normally participate in can give unexpected insights. 
The first time I wrote for a freestyle it was a real eye opener about how  difficult it can be to identify exactly what movement some riders were supposedly showing ðŸ˜±
Good info to have up your sleeve, no dribbly half passes or odd shaped circles here, lol!

I also wrote for a para judge a couple of years ago which was really interesting having had nothing to do with that before. I love writing ðŸ™‚


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## emfen1305 (21 December 2018)

Sorry Splashgirl I knew someone had brought it up but just couldn't remember who - but I wholeheartedly agree, especially when a test is pretty much symmetrical its nice to see when a horse gets a 6 for the first trot for example then can get a 7 or an 8 for the next one because they've settled or had a canter, it makes me think about my own warm up and picking the right tests to do which is something I had never considered before. 

Thanks TP, MP and RN - I'll definitely get in touch with them in the New Year - no preferred sport actually ( I would love to do an event one day!) but just like learning and helping out and asking questions so will look into BE too!


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Bellaboo18 said:



			As someone that can't be accused of being in any clique (I'm a new member) I'll  throw my opinion in to the mix. We all love our horses, all have our own opinions and can easily take others opinions to heart. However, Melodra has unfortunately taken a very defensive approach when I feel people were genuinely trying to help. There's little point in asking for people's opinions when you only have one answer you want to hear. Mrs Jingle, it's nice to see you've got Melodras back but what about the harsh words she said about others? 
'I believe you are not as knowledgeable as the image you like to purport.' Ouch and very personal.
		
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Water off a duck's back bellaboo... there are plenty of button pressing opportunities in this thread I think but the the actual discussion is too interesting to merit getting posts deleted etc I think ðŸ˜‰


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## ester (21 December 2018)

ha yes done that too, is that there 15 m circle do you think?


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## scats (21 December 2018)

I found writing for judges really beneficial and is something that I try to do as often as I can.  Itâ€™s so easy to think that only the best people are out there doing it and that everyone will be perfect when in reality it really is a mixed bag, which is super to see, as everyone needs to start somewhere.

The time absolutely flies and you learn so much.


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## oldie48 (21 December 2018)

Sooooo back to the original post, why does a lazy horse in a prelim test get marked more favourably than one that is tense? My answer is because the scales of training are rhythm, suppleness, contact, impulsion, straightness and lastly collection. A tense horse at prelim level will not show rhythm or suppleness, however happy and motivated whereas a lazy arse horse could show both even if it needs a bit of a boot to keep it going. I claim my prize!


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## tallyho! (21 December 2018)

Maybe change your name to Melodrama, OP. 

Youâ€™ve certainly taken a melodramatic tune to some the most helpful replies by some of the most experienced people. 

No pleasing some folk is there...


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## JFTDWS (21 December 2018)

oldie48 said:



			Sooooo back to the original post, why does a lazy horse in a prelim test get marked more favourably than one that is tense? My answer is because the scales of training are rhythm, suppleness, contact, impulsion, straightness and lastly collection. A tense horse at prelim level will not show rhythm or suppleness, however happy and motivated whereas a lazy arse horse could show both even if it needs a bit of a boot to keep it going. I claim my prize!
		
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So you're saying it's fine to boot, batter and abuse your horse around the ring?!  You discust me, you're uphauling!


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## gunnergundog (21 December 2018)

Cortez & Milliepops both deserve awards; they both have the patience of a saint.


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## ester (21 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			So you're saying it's fine to boot, batter and abuse your horse around the ring?!  You discust me, you're uphauling!
		
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It's like fburton were here with us!

oldie what sort of prize were you thinking?



gunnergundog said:



			Cortez & Milliepops both deserve awards; they both have the patience of a saint.
		
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badges?


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## PapaverFollis (21 December 2018)

The forum gives out little awards now doesn't it? Is there one for "your posts have been reported 25 times"?


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## JFTDWS (21 December 2018)

ester said:



			It's like fburton were here with us!
		
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I've been possessed


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## Auslander (21 December 2018)

I wrote for Delia Cunningham many many many years ago when I was preparing for my BHSII(T). It was one of my first seminal moments - I learned more from an afternoons writing for her than I believed possible! Despite a busy schedule, she made a real effort to help me with my "eye" - she slipped in several "What would you mark that movement? Why?" moments, which were brilliant, as we had a quick discussion about my mark v her mark and why in between tests. Great lady, and so generous with her knowledge


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

ester said:



			badges?
		
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Get on it, ester ðŸŽ–


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## tristar (21 December 2018)

for what its worth if you are happy with the way your horse performed, that is the most important thing, you are sitting on the horse the judge is not, you know in your own mind the truth of how it feels. 

and a dull horse being kicked round is not ready to be presented to   perform a test at all ,i value willingness over all other qualities,, and while rhythm and balance are paramount a horse with sparkle probably has more potential to train on at the higher levels or might be easier in some ways, but for god sake do not try to subdue and ruin that enthusiasm, just find away to sculpt it constructively  with proper training, to retain that liveliness with achieving rhythm and balance, then you can get straightness

on the day judging is all well and good but potential to train on is just as important to me, to see the bigger picture than the dull obedient horse and not put down horses who may  very well perform much better when going higher level  as i have seen done. because it may be on the day but this is dressage! the whole idea is to improve! and move upwards not just  what it does today.


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## ester (21 December 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			The forum gives out little awards now doesn't it? Is there one for "your posts have been reported 25 times"?
		
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 have you not had any? , new forum give lots of trophies! There's a leader board and everything!


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## PapaverFollis (21 December 2018)

Leader board? Omg. Where do I find that?  I do have some awards. *proud* But dont think Ive had any posts reported! ðŸ˜²


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

A trophy for number of times someone had pressed the button on you would be a new one tho


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## JFTDWS (21 December 2018)

Funny you should mention the leader board...


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## splashgirl45 (21 December 2018)

oooh, are we playing trumps?   i wrote for malcolm  brown at goodwood many years ago and the first rider was jenny lc on dutch gold!!!!   i win!!!!!!!


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			Leader board? Omg. Where do I find that?  I do have some awards. *proud* But dont think Ive had any posts reported! ðŸ˜²
		
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Press "members" on a menu somewhere.
I'm on the mobile version

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/members


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## ester (21 December 2018)

PMSL at JFTD! get you!


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## ester (21 December 2018)

we missed amymays 50k party though


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## JFTDWS (21 December 2018)

ester said:



			PMSL at JFTD! get you!
		
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Secret Santa.  That's all I have to say


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## oldie48 (21 December 2018)

ester said:



			It's like fburton were here with us!

oldie what sort of prize were you thinking?
Well I am very easily pleased, World peace? A bit of humour inserted in everyone's DNA? A new sadde that makes me competely straight? A new body that is 40years younger than I am? I keep thinking about that man from Boston Lincs who drove around with the winning Euro Lottery ticket in his van for six weeks, what would I do with that amount of money? I think that should be our next new thread!!!


badges?
		
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## ester (21 December 2018)

Ooh now the DNA insert I might be able to do


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## nikicb (21 December 2018)

Well, this has all moved on somewhat since I was here last!!  

I think it was in this thread (I'm really rather confused now due to the two glasses of wine I have had to consume to get through it), but the display with Friesians at Olympia, especially when one horse stood on the back of others, and then the dogs came out bounding over them all lying down was really not very enjoyable.

Writing for judges is great - I have written for quite a few different judges and always learn a lot.  I'm booked in to write on 29/12 and really looking forward to it.

Lastly, about that Ester.....  not only did she make me sit next to her at Olympia on Wednesday, she also bullied me into buying a Welshie.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Oh crikey ester, oldie48 is aiming high.
This looks more serious than the HHO CSI badges or similar ðŸ˜²


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## JFTDWS (21 December 2018)

oldie48 said:



			That man from Boston Lincs who drove around with the winning Euro Lottery ticket...  What would I do?
		
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Get the hell out of Boston, surely?!


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## splashgirl45 (21 December 2018)

oldie 48, can i have the new body that is 40 years younger.....that would be fab....


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## ester (21 December 2018)

I thought it was an either or, not an all and I'll hand out the ones I don't need!?


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## DabDab (21 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Secret Santa.  That's all I have to say 

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Yeah that and bonny on dog threads...ðŸ˜‚


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## JFTDWS (21 December 2018)

DabDab said:



			Yeah that and bonny on dog threads...ðŸ˜‚
		
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I... er... was having a bit too much fun on that one


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

MrsJingle said:



			OP I have read right through this thread and have absolutely not one jot of worthwhile opinion to share on the subject.

However, I really do hope you are OK and regret very much that some people who have responded to your thread with great enthusiasm for critique of almost every word you wrote, failed miserably to pick up on how much they were upsetting and distressing you. I think even if they did not agree with you it might have been far wiser and far more mature to have simply backed away from this thread when it became very evident how much their somewhat harsh and frankly irrelevant responses became and had very little to do with informative opinion on your original post.

I have a tough hide and don't give a flying feck what responses I get from posting my opinion here or elsewhere - however I do recognise when someone is obviously extremely distressed and upset by an apparent concerted effort to follow the pack and wade in - yet again   Take care and I hope you have a very happy Christmas and new year and leave all this where it belongs - in la la internet land when absolutley nobody  is what they seem and like to portray..
		
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Thank you so much for this.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

tristar said:



			for what its worth if you are happy with the way your horse performed, that is the most important thing, you are sitting on the horse the judge is not, you know in your own mind the truth of how it feels. 



tristar said:



			for what its worth if you are happy with the way your horse performed, that is the most important thing, you are sitting on the horse the judge is not, you know in your own mind the truth of how it feels. 

and a dull horse being kicked round is not ready to be presented to   perform a test at all ,i value willingness over all other qualities,, and while rhythm and balance are paramount a horse with sparkle probably has more potential to train on at the higher levels or might be easier in some ways, but for god sake do not try to subdue and ruin that enthusiasm, just find away to sculpt it constructively  with proper training, to retain that liveliness with achieving rhythm and balance, then you can get straightness

on the day judging is all well and good but potential to train on is just as important to me, to see the bigger picture than the dull obedient horse and not put down horses who may  very well perform much better when going higher level  as i have seen done. because it may be on the day but this is dressage! the whole idea is to improve! and move upwards not just  what it does today.
		
Click to expand...


and a dull horse being kicked round is not ready to be presented to   perform a test at all ,i value willingness over all other qualities,, and while rhythm and balance are paramount a horse with sparkle probably has more potential to train on at the higher levels or might be easier in some ways, but for god sake do not try to subdue and ruin that enthusiasm, just find away to sculpt it constructively  with proper training, to retain that liveliness with achieving rhythm and balance, then you can get straightness on the day judging is all well and good but potential to train on is just as important to me, to see the bigger picture than the dull obedient horse and not put down horses who may  very well perform much better when going higher level  as i have seen done. because it may be on the day but this is dressage! the whole idea is to improve! and move upwards not just  what it does today.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for this. Agree with all of your comments and I really am so happy and proud of him. After an awful first test, he did absolutely everything he was asked and exceeded my expectations...this was all to get more experience for him.  And yes, I am so glad you have said not to shut him down... I absolutely donâ€™t want to shut down that enthusiasm and love of his work, they are who he is and need to find a way to constructively sculpt it as you say. 

I would be interested to see if there are any responses to your comment other than mine.


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## Tihamandturkey (21 December 2018)

MrsJingle said:



			Oh do grow up for heaven's sake...are you 10???  Your suggested 'intrigue' and pride in your longevity at H&H does not one thing to excuse your cruel and shameful  behaviour shown on this thread to someone who is very obviously feeling vulnerable and in need of some slack from the more robust and hard headed posters on this forum.  I dont care who the OP is now, was before on this forum, and might be next week....the bottom line is very obvious flags were showing that this was becoming distressful and making the OP fell very, very upset and depressed.  Christ there are some real bitches in the real and internet pretend horse world for sure 

Click to expand...

This 100% well said


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## YorksG (21 December 2018)

I would suggest that the OP, if genuinely reduced to tears by this thread, should seriously consider moderating their use of social media and possibly look to finding some life coaching/counselling help.


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## oldie48 (21 December 2018)

splashgirl45 said:



			oldie 48, can i have the new body that is 40 years younger.....that would be fab....
		
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Nope, if anyone is getting it i am first in the queue as I think I need it more than most, you can have "World Peace" and be grateful for potentially winning a Nobel prize, I will settle for having a waistline and a proper bum so my breeches stay up!


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## Mule (21 December 2018)

I do believe that if we keep plugging away at it we will get where we want to go. My instructor rides at gp, she says she still hasn't scratched the surface.
She also pointed out that she put in 20 years of hard work to get there. So if anyone here is feeling discouraged, I think it's important that we look to what's possible instead of what we are, (currently) having difficulty with


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

A Mule In A Manager said:



			I do believe that if we keep plugging away at it we will get where we want to go. My instructor rides at gp, she says she still hasn't scratched the surface.
She also pointed out that she put in 20 years of hard work to get there. So if anyone here is feeling discouraged, I think it's important that we look to what's possible instead of what we are, (currently) having difficulty with

Click to expand...

Too right ðŸ‘


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

*"Gaslighting* is a form of psychological manipulation that seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, making them question their own memory, perception, and sanity. Using persistent denial, misdirection, contradiction, and lying, it attempts to destabilize the victim and delegitimize the victim's belief"

Thankfully the messages of support I have received today have made me realise that it isn't me. The fact that you haven't responded or can't respond to certain posts here which also venture a differing opinion demonstrate it isn't me. It's the awful pack mentality of a group that spends all its time on an internet forum...I do wonder when you saw your horses this evening. I feel much better this evening and having received further messages I realise that I should not let a group of people on the internet, clearly with issues of their own given the amount of time they spend here, upset me or ruin my happiness in my much improved and beautiful gelding.


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## ester (21 December 2018)

I think it's pretty insulting to those who have suffered from gaslighting to suggest that is what has gone on in this thread.

No horse to see so no need to worry about any neglect going on. No one set out to ruin your happiness, as stated before had you posted that you were really proud of how much better your gelding had gone you would have got plenty of congratulation. As it was you asked a question and people are generous enough with their time to try and answer those around here.


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Well, you're still here. I've been nipping in and out, ridden two and given a lesson, but then I'm good at multitasking. Thanks for the info, I'd not heard of that before, but doesn't seem to fit with the answers we've been trying to give you. Really think you should let it go, it's not doing you any good and you are getting yourself in a state.


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## JFTDWS (21 December 2018)

Now the folk who don't agree with the OP are neglecting their horses 

(Mine are very happy in their field with their hay and all that.  I spent all afternoon with them - I'm not overly concerned to have limited myself to a brief check this evening!)


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Well, you're still here. I've been nipping in and out, ridden two and given a lesson, but then I'm good at multitasking. Thanks for the info, I'd not heard of that before, but doesn't seem to fit with the answers we've been trying to give you. Really think you should let it go, it's not doing you any good and you are getting yourself in a state.
		
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If you truly thought that, you wouldn't keep responding with spiteful and bitchy comments. You were certainly very quick to jump on this one.

I've taken much from a number of comments, advice, support and messages today. Not from you, but guess what? Not everyone has to agree with "established members." And believe me, they don't.


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## milliepops (21 December 2018)

Yep I saw mine at midday then again between 4.30 and 6, both are on a day off. No need for any concern.
I also think it's distasteful to compare this forum to actual gaslighting which ruins lives.  This is trivial nonsense. Close down the computer,  do something else. ðŸ¤¨


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## splashgirl45 (21 December 2018)

i dont have a horse to neglect  but did take my dogs out for a 40 min walk in between posts..


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			If you truly thought that, you wouldn't keep responding with spiteful and bitchy comments. You were certainly very quick to jump on this one.

I've taken much from a number of comments, advice, support and messages today. Not from you, but guess what? Not everyone hast agree with "established members." And believe me, they don't.
		
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No one has to agree with anyone, in fact it would be a very boring forum if they did; it's kind of the point of it, you know? Please show me the spiteful and bitchy bits, like actual quotes because I haven't got time to find them now.


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

You need to take a long hard look at yourself and ask yourself why your online behaviour leaves others in tears. Bullying and gaslighting is exactly what you do. You've just been pulled up for it by others and you still can't see it. Absolutely typical.

Like I say, I've heard enough from others to know it's not me.

Enjoy your evening.


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## ester (21 December 2018)

I tried to feed the snake ... again...


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## shortstuff99 (21 December 2018)

tristar said:



			for what its worth if you are happy with the way your horse performed, that is the most important thing, you are sitting on the horse the judge is not, you know in your own mind the truth of how it feels.

and a dull horse being kicked round is not ready to be presented to   perform a test at all ,i value willingness over all other qualities,, and while rhythm and balance are paramount a horse with sparkle probably has more potential to train on at the higher levels or might be easier in some ways, but for god sake do not try to subdue and ruin that enthusiasm, just find away to sculpt it constructively  with proper training, to retain that liveliness with achieving rhythm and balance, then you can get straightness

on the day judging is all well and good but potential to train on is just as important to me, to see the bigger picture than the dull obedient horse and not put down horses who may  very well perform much better when going higher level  as i have seen done. because it may be on the day but this is dressage! the whole idea is to improve! and move upwards not just  what it does today.
		
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While this maybe the end goal for lots of riders, in a competition the judge can only judge and comment on what they see on the day. They can't give a higher score because they think the horse will be better at a higher level or with more training (unless it's a young horse class). I think this is what can feel frustrating for riders as they know the potential of their horse but the judges don't. Unfortunately that's the nature of the beast of competition in dressage, you literally pay someone to make comments on you and your horse!


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## Cortez (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			You need to take a long hard look at yourself and ask yourself why your online behaviour leaves others in tears. Bullying and gaslighting is exactly what you do. You've just been pulled up for it by others and you still can't see it. Absolutely typical.

Like I say, I've heard enough from others to know it's not me.

Enjoy your evening.
		
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Who's in tears now? I can't keep track. Anyhow, I wish you the best of luck in all your endeavours and perhaps a slightly more robust constitution if you're going to engage with others on an open discussion forum. And better manners.


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## JFTDWS (21 December 2018)

ester said:



			I tried to feed the snake ... again...
		
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That sounds vaguely euphemistic... 

Any joy?


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## ester (21 December 2018)

unlikely from me! 

no, ungrateful sod. I've left it with him. I got some plants for the viv, something to look at then


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## JFTDWS (21 December 2018)

ester said:



			unlikely from me!

no, ungrateful sod. I've left it with him. I got some plants for the viv, something to look at then 

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High maintenance little devil!  Are you sure he's not crying in there because he feels you're bullying him?


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## ester (21 December 2018)

I hope not, I've got the humidity just right unless he is watering the plants of course.


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## JFTDWS (21 December 2018)

ester said:



			I hope not, I've got the humidity just right unless he is watering the plants of course.
		
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No, I should imagine he has more sense anyway.  Fiddly creatures, but awesome, if you can keep them happy!


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## Snitch (21 December 2018)




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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

Melodra said:



*"* It's the awful pack mentality of a group that spends all its time on an internet forum...I do wonder when you saw your horses this evening. I feel much better this evening and having received further messages I realise that I should not let a group of people on the internet, clearly with issues of their own given the amount of time they spend here, upset me or ruin my happiness in my much improved and beautiful gelding.
		
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Is that not slightly ridiculous and over the top? Pure ridiculous to say people are neglecting their horses cause they comment on a debate.I popped on to comment while mucking out three stables, trudging across 14 acres to feed a herd of horses and minding two on box rest, thanks very much.

I totally agree that you shouldn't let a harmless internet debate affect you so much. It would be no harm to step back a it as I don't think anyone meant to cause the offence you took, I know I wish you all the best with your horse and was only debating the points you raised (which i assumed was the point of the original post)


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			Is that not slightly ridiculous and over the top? Pure ridiculous to say people are neglecting their horses cause they comment on a debate.I popped on to comment while mucking out three stables, trudging across 14 acres to feed a herd of horses and minding two on box rest, thanks very much.

I totally agree that you shouldn't let a harmless internet debate affect you so much. It would be no harm to step back a it as I don't think anyone meant to caise the offence you took, I know I wish you all the best with your horse and was only debating the points you raised (which i assumed was the point of the original post)[/QUOT

Could you please point out where I accused anyone of neglecting their horse? Merely surprised that all these horse owners manage to spend so much time online?
		
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## PapaverFollis (21 December 2018)

Right. So excessive tension and excessive dullnezzzzz (possibly resulting from tension in a different type of horse) are pretty much equally bad... that seems fair. On the day of a dressage competition when being judged by the rules a horse with excessive "excited" tension can score lower than a more ploddy, but possibly more rhythmic and accurate horse.  Since both tests were not seen by any if us not even the original poster as she was riding one of them all we really have is conjecture as to why those two specific tests scored as they did on the day. But we can't suggest reasons because it is construed as attacking the original poster and her horse and bullying.

Talking in generalities leads to everyone being accused of thinking that it's top form to kick your horse along. And then ends up being twisted round to being about the original poster again.

So really a sensible discussion is looking pretty impossible although valiant and informative efforts have been made.

Apparently there's a tonne of PMs flying about as well.

It is possible to train a horse to be relaxed AND expressive. So to relax a tense horse but maintain the sparkle or pep up a more ploddy one but keep the nice rhythm and relaxed attitude.

Do we even know what margin the ploddy kick along beat the original poster and her horse by? It might have been half a percent! Even if it was 5 percent then that's only a half mark each movement isn't it? And, as many many posters more knowledgeable than I have tried to say, rhythm really counts.

Perhaps dressage judging *should* penalise a rider kicking more. But perhaps right now it doesn't? It does seem more concerned overall with the horse than the rider and it seems a rhythmic, accurately ridden test gets you further than whatever faults the judge saw that resulted from the tension. Unless you see the other person's test sheet as well you really have no insight.

My horse stopped for a shit on a 20m circle in my first test. We got a 5 for that and it lost us a place. So what? It's not important. I was really pleased with her and neither the judging nor anyone's comments on the internet change that. I did get down about the judges comments for a bit but hey.

I don't know what I'm trying to say really. This thread is just weird. It reads, from a pretty neutral person's perspective, as severe trolling. It might not be, but thats how it reads.


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## paddi22 (21 December 2018)

I know i shouldn't but...you say "i do wonder when you saw your horses this evening'  which would insinuate people were spending time online instead of with their horses. I was just pointing out its possible to do both. To be honest I am very wary of posting in reply to you as I genuinely don't want to upset you as you seem very reactive to take offence to what people post. I genuinely wish you all the best competing with your horse


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## Melodra (21 December 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			Right. So excessive tension and excessive dullnezzzzz (possibly resulting from tension in a different type of horse) are pretty much equally bad... that seems fair. On the day of a dressage competition when being judged by the rules a horse with excessive "excited" tension can score lower than a more ploddy, but possibly more rhythmic and accurate horse.  Since both tests were not seen by any if us not even the original poster as she was riding one of them all we really have is conjecture as to why those two specific tests scored as they did on the day. But we can't suggest reasons because it is construed as attacking the original poster and her horse and bullying.

Talking in generalities leads to everyone being accused of thinking that it's top form to kick your horse along. And then ends up being twisted round to being about the original poster again.

So really a sensible discussion is looking pretty impossible although valiant and informative efforts have been made.

Apparently there's a tonne of PMs flying about as well.

It is possible to train a horse to be relaxed AND expressive. So to relax a tense horse but maintain the sparkle or pep up a more ploddy one but keep the nice rhythm and relaxed attitude.

Do we even know what margin the ploddy kick along beat the original poster and her horse by? It might have been half a percent! Even if it was 5 percent then that's only a half mark each movement isn't it? And, as many many posters more knowledgeable than I have tried to say, rhythm really counts.

Perhaps dressage judging *should* penalise a rider kicking more. But perhaps right now it doesn't? It does seem more concerned overall with the horse than the rider and it seems a rhythmic, accurately ridden test gets you further than whatever faults the judge saw that resulted from the tension. Unless you see the other person's test sheet as well you really have no insight.

My horse stopped for a shit on a 20m circle in my first test. We got a 5 for that and it lost us a place. So what? It's not important. I was really pleased with her and neither the judging nor anyone's comments on the internet change that. I did get down about the judges comments for a bit but hey.

I don't know what I'm trying to say really. This thread is just weird. It reads, from a pretty neutral person's perspective, as severe trolling. It might not be, but thats how it reads.
		
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I have not at any stage accused people of bullying for suggesting reasons for the horse being marked down. I simply expressed a viewpoint that while I understood the issues tension can cause, nontheless a horse being kicked along is not submissive, soft or harmonious as some had suggested. And that is when this degenerated into a personal attack.

I wouldn't have asked for different viewpoints if I wasn't interested in them. But it was my viewpoint that was shut down by the pack. I was told that I should listen to the "more experienced" viewpoints of those who stated that a kicked horse was "better" than an excited novice showing tension. I was told it wasn't my place to discuss the scoring because I had no impact on the outcome? I was told my inexperienced horse on its second time out had serious "issues" and would need entirely retraining and shouldn't be competing because that excitement at being in a new place surrounded by other horses and his natural exuberance manifested in tension. Now that is ridiculous. The post hinged on kicking. One member stated that she kicked her horse through Prelim and considered it acceptable because she trained the horse to be more responsive. I asked if she trained it by kicking - never responded. I was told that the judge probably didn't mean the positive things she said about my horse, and that these were made so that I should not feel "hopeless." Why I should feel at all hopeless when his score was in any case respectable and he showed a huge improvement.

You are right. The score really doesn't matter. It was unaff Prelim. He was there for experience. What mattered was that as someone said above, that I, knowing my horse better than anyone was happy with how he performed. And I was delighted. The people on this forum did not see it and have no real insight...and when I tried to explain to counter incorrect assumptions that my horse was disobedient or stressed, I was accused of not listening, again to "more experienced people." Even your own post is not black and white and far more balanced than those of the members who have attacked me for "not listening to them" or more likely not agreeing with them. 

I simply thought it was an interesting debate because it was this experience that got me thinking about it...I mistakenly assumed that meant it would be fine to express my own opinion. Only if in agreement with the regulars apparently.


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## Goldenstar (22 December 2018)

Shakes head and wonders off.


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## ycbm (22 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Well, you're still here. I've been nipping in and out, ridden two and given a lesson, but then I'm good at multitasking. .
		
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You rode two at the same time while giving a lesson as well? Awesome!!


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Good lord.
If one can cook up that much misinterpreted, misquoted, twisted fake news twaddle from stuff written on the internet, then daily actual face to face human interaction must be seriously challenging. How on earth could you keep up with which version of events you were on at any time. Blimey.
It's like looking into a hall of mirrors


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## Melodra (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			Good lord.
I'm beginning to wonder how on earth the OP can get through day to day life.
If one can cook up that much misinterpreted, misquoted, twisted fake news twaddle from stuff written on the internet, then daily actual face to face human interaction must be seriously challenging. How on earth could you keep up with which version of events you were on at any time. Blimey.
		
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Again, you've now been pulled up for this now by others here, not just me, who can see what is going on. Even now the personal attacks continue...but hey ho, you seem to get off on it. You've seen for yourself what people think of your behaviour. Vicious, childish and grotesque. Of course you'll dismiss it, but there it is. Off to bed now. Horses to feed and muck out early tomorrow etc.


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

I think that many of us on the receiving end of your hostile posts have been tolerant and patient actually ðŸ¤·â€â™€ï¸ you're the one reaching for the insults and cutting off the debate. Its remarkable how you've taken a pretty interesting and informative thread and twisted it up to suit an agenda that doesn't appear to help anyone. Quite weird.


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## McFluff (22 December 2018)

The theoretical issue in this thread is really interesting, thank you to all those who have taken ages to share your knowledge. As someone starting out on my dressage journey itâ€™s useful. 

In my personal experience no good can come from questioning why another combination scored better (or worse) than me. All I can control is how I ride/react, and for me the competition is with myself. Have I got less of a particular (constructive) comment this time? Am I moving in the right direction? Has my horse felt more relaxed? Happier? More confident? 

I also strongly believe that at a competition, the only person who should be judging is the judge. It isnâ€™t fair, especially at the lower levels to criticise fellow competitors. Everyone who is competing is there to try their best. Everyone is dealing with different challenges and finds different elements of competing easy/difficult. Everyone has good days and bad days.  
OP, some of your later posts really sound like you are being very critical of your fellow competitor - it doesnâ€™t start out that way, but in further posts, you do seem to suggest that they were abusing their horse. That feels very unfair to them, as if it were true, they should have been eliminated.  The fact that they werenâ€™t would suggest that there were positives in the test that the judge saw.  You can choose to try and learn from that, or not. Your main focus needs to be you and your horse, get out and about, enjoy being together, and ignore other tests in your class (unless you are watching to try and remember the test!!).


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## Mule (22 December 2018)

McFluff said:



			The theoretical issue in this thread is really interesting, thank you to all those who have taken ages to share your knowledge. As someone starting out on my dressage journey itâ€™s useful.

In my personal experience no good can come from questioning why another combination scored better (or worse) than me. All I can control is how I ride/react, and for me the competition is with myself. Have I got less of a particular (constructive) comment this time? Am I moving in the right direction? Has my horse felt more relaxed? Happier? More confident?

I also strongly believe that at a competition, the only person who should be judging is the judge. It isnâ€™t fair, especially at the lower levels to criticise fellow competitors. Everyone who is competing is there to try their best. Everyone is dealing with different challenges and finds different elements of competing easy/difficult. Everyone has good days and bad days.
OP, some of your later posts really sound like you are being very critical of your fellow competitor - it doesnâ€™t start out that way, but in further posts, you do seem to suggest that they were abusing their horse. That feels very unfair to them, as if it were true, they should have been eliminated.  The fact that they werenâ€™t would suggest that there were positives in the test that the judge saw.  You can choose to try and learn from that, or not. Your main focus needs to be you and your horse, get out and about, enjoy being together, and ignore other tests in your class (unless you are watching to try and remember the test!!).
		
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I agree. We all have our own things to work on. It's best to support fellow riders.
I've found dressage people very friendly and helpful. There's a good atmosphere in my region. It probably helps that dressage is a much smaller sport where I live than both showjumping and eventing.

I also want to say to the op that I've personally found Cortez to be really helpful with advice. She's someone I would recommend listening to.


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## JennBags (22 December 2018)

Wow, what a thread! Some really interesting tips here, my now retired horse was always very tense and we were marked down regularly, used to find it very frustrating and wish I'd had this thread to read through then!

The best comment I ever had was the judge approaching me while I was perusing the scoreboard, putting her hand on my shoulder and saying "well done for staying on, and for riding to the end of the test"   next time out to that venue, I didn't manage to stay on though 

As for the OP,  she clearly came on here spoiling for a fight, she's deliberately misinterpreted many experienced and helpful posters, and has been rude and insulting.  She's obviously a returning troll who often pops up at Christmas time; I wonder whether she does it for kicks or if she has mental health issues, as she does it year after year after year, always around this time.  She has, however, created a really informative and interesting thread with much food for though, which will, not have been her intention!


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## Goldenstar (22 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Again, you've now been pulled up for this now by others here, not just me, who can see what is going on. Even now the personal attacks continue...but hey ho, you seem to get off on it. You've seen for yourself what people think of your behaviour. Vicious, childish and grotesque. Of course you'll dismiss it, but there it is. Off to bed now. Horses to feed and muck out early tomorrow etc.
		
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I think I begin to understand why your horse is so tense .
Horses donâ€™t like angry people


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			I think I begin to understand why your horse is so tense .
Horses donâ€™t like angry people
		
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Maybe OP and Mrs Jinglebells should take note,  unless they are one and the same ....


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## Melodra (22 December 2018)

McFluff said:



			The theoretical issue in this thread is really interesting, thank you to all those who have taken ages to share your knowledge. As someone starting out on my dressage journey itâ€™s useful. 

In my personal experience no good can come from questioning why another combination scored better (or worse) than me. All I can control is how I ride/react, and for me the competition is with myself. Have I got less of a particular (constructive) comment this time? Am I moving in the right direction? Has my horse felt more relaxed? Happier? More confident? 

I also strongly believe that at a competition, the only person who should be judging is the judge. It isnâ€™t fair, especially at the lower levels to criticise fellow competitors. Everyone who is competing is there to try their best. Everyone is dealing with different challenges and finds different elements of competing easy/difficult. Everyone has good days and bad days.  
OP, some of your later posts really sound like you are being very critical of your fellow competitor - it doesnâ€™t start out that way, but in further posts, you do seem to suggest that they were abusing their horse. That feels very unfair to them, as if it were true, they should have been eliminated.  The fact that they werenâ€™t would suggest that there were positives in the test that the judge saw.  You can choose to try and learn from that, or not. Your main focus needs to be you and your horse, get out and about, enjoy being together, and ignore other tests in your class (unless you are watching to try and remember the test!!).
		
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Fair comment. I certainly didnâ€™t mean to suggest abuse; however I do feel continuous kicking and nagging is unethical.... the action means the horse carries out the movements to avoid discomfort.... For me, I believe the horse should be happy and willing in its work, not just in dressage but in all spheres. Iâ€™ve mentioned in a post above, weâ€™ve just spent the summer working with a horse who had been kicked and nagged....after such a promising start to life he had been written off by his previous owner as useless...could barely get a trot out of him. What worked for him was making work fun for him again, praise when he got it right, rather than the continuous punishment of being kicked to keep him going....he instead became willing. That said, while unethical, itâ€™s a push to describe most kicking and nagging as abuse and was not suggesting that..the ethics of it are though another matter. 

I keep being told that no one here is advocating kicking (after advocating kicking)....if not then what are they arguing with me about? 

However you are right, I should be focused on my test and my test alone...and how my own horse performed. I wasnâ€™t the only person at the event to bring this up, which is why I thought it was an interesting discussion. I wasnâ€™t posting piqued about my score or the other competitors as that may have been interpreted ...merely interested in other viewpoints. I rarely get the chance to watch other tests as it is, and doing so this time has opened up a real can of worms it seems! I think there is a lot in what you say about simply focusing on my own horse going forwards....oh and not posting about it here!


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## Melodra (22 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			I think I begin to understand why your horse is so tense. Horses donâ€™t like angry people. t



The Xmas Furry said:



			Maybe OP and Mrs Jinglebells should take note,  unless they are one and the same ....  

Click to expand...


Wow. Could you really sink much lower than that comment? How awful and bitter to make that comment to a stranger. Again the comments are there condemning you for this behaviour and still you carry on. 

Given that this entire post essentially comes down to willingness vs force Iâ€™m satisfied that my horses are more than happy. Everything I do, the way my riding and training, the overarching philosophy of my trainer which I work hard to follow is to keep those horses sweet, happy,  willing and enjoying their work. The results speak for themselves.  

Your comment is disingenuous and spiteful as any fool knows a novice at his second event could not unreasonably be likely to show some tension. The accusations of mental health issues, comments such as the above only reinforce what others have said. You wonâ€™t upset me with comments like that.
		
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## Goldenstar (22 December 2018)

You really have no insight at all ,the only person name calling is you .
You are either a Christmas troll ( thatâ€™s what I hope ) or you have some problems for which I am sorry .
This is a very supportive forum when people have problems  perhaps itâ€™s not quite what you want .


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			I keep being told that no one here is advocating kicking (after advocating kicking)....if not then what are they arguing with me about?
		
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Time after time you fail to produce any quotes to back up your assertions.
And as far as I can tell, you're the only one getting angry and arguing? ðŸ¤¨


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## ester (22 December 2018)

Just to be helpful your comments donâ€™t show if you write inside the quote box, if you write outside the quote box they do.


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## Melodra (22 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			You really have no insight at all ,the only person name calling is you .
You are either a Christmas troll ( thatâ€™s what I hope ) or you have some problems for which I am sorry .
This is a very supportive forum when people have problems  perhaps itâ€™s not quite what you want .
		
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Carry on with the bitter and personal attacks. The fact that you just canâ€™t leave my thread alone, despite causing me some distress yesterday and and this morning sink to the depths of the above comment really says it all. Not sure itâ€™s me with the issues here.


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## Red-1 (22 December 2018)

ester said:



			Just to be helpful your comments donâ€™t show if you write inside the quote box, if you write outside the quote box they do.
		
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Ah, I wondered why some people have replied with just a quote and no comment. Not just on this thread, but others too. I thought it was a forum glitch.


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## Melodra (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			Time after time you fail to produce any quotes to back up your assertions.
And as far as I can tell, you're the only one getting angry and arguing? ðŸ¤¨
		
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That didnâ€™t take long. You guys really do live here donâ€™t you? Millie, what was it you said about kicking your horse at Prelim?


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## Goldenstar (22 December 2018)

I repeat the person engaging in personal attacks and name calling is you .
I donâ€™t like people who spew abuse about people on here this is a nice forum where we have fun talking about horses .
We can disagree about things itâ€™s not personal .
In fact if you had read my posts you would have seen I was sympathetic to your thoughts I can only assume you did not bother .
As for leaving it alone why should I no one put you in charge .


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## paddi22 (22 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			however I do feel continuous kicking and nagging is unethical.... the action means the horse carries out the movements to avoid discomfort.... For me, I believe the horse should be happy and willing in its work, not just in dressage but in all spheres.
		
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-A horse being tense or stressed at a show is just as unethical as a strong or clumsy leg aid, on some level it is not happy with the situation it is in and this manifests itself in tension a judge can see
-People holding horses with unsteady contact or sawing cause more pain to the horse than nagging with a leg

If you don't ever want to kick a horse then you have obviously never had to sit on a nappy horse, or had to train a young horse, because at times a good pony club kick fixes the problem and everyone moves on. A lot of horse training is teaching them to move away from discomfort. How do you think your horse learnt to turn? It does it to relieve pressure on one side of its mouth from the bit, is that not unethical too?

I genuinely don't understand your theory of horse training. You say horses should never be made uncomfortable, but in that case why would you bring your horse to _another _dressage show if he displayed such stressed behaviour at the first, showing his obvious discomfort? Or do you just cherrypick kicking as the one you think is bad?  Because you see people nagging horses, but i have never seen it be a welfare issue in three decades of riding. And judges pull people up all the time for misuse of spurs, or if a horse looks off, they would pull up someone if kicking was an issue too.

What is the different between you saying _'the judge said my horse was tense', he will be better next time with more milage' _ and someone else saying_ 'god my horse shut down  cause it was his first time in a ring and i had to nag him with my leg, he will be better next time'? _


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## Melodra (22 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			I repeat the person engaging in personal attacks and name calling is you .
I donâ€™t like people who spew abuse about people on here this is a nice forum where we have fun talking about horses .
We can disagree about things itâ€™s not personal .
In fact if you had read my posts you would have seen I was sympathetic to your thoughts I can only assume you did not bother .
As for leaving it alone why should I no one put you in charge .
		
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You were sympathetic until you saw your online friends having a go, so yes it was rather a surprise to see you change your entire viewpoint. 

Why should you leave it alone? Not sure what you get out of goading and attacking a stranger. I know some people get off on it but really....itâ€™s a funny world isnâ€™t it?


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## tallyho! (22 December 2018)

Blummin eck I'm tense just reading the first page! 

Wouldn't like to be Melodra's horse


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## paddi22 (22 December 2018)

I just can't understand how anyone would train any horse if they never kicked it? Do you go straight to a whip then?


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## Melodra (22 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			-A horse being tense or stressed at a show is just as unethical as a strong or clumsy leg aid, on some level it is not happy with the situation it is in and this manifests itself in tension a judge can see
-People holding horses with unsteady contact or sawing cause more pain to the horse than nagging with a leg

If you don't ever want to kick a horse then you have obviously never had to sit on a nappy horse, or had to train a young horse, because at times a good pony club kick fixes the problem and everyone moves on. A lot of horse training is teaching them to move away from discomfort. How do you think your horse learnt to turn? It does it to relieve pressure on one side of its mouth from the bit, is that not unethical too?

I genuinely don't understand your theory of horse training. You say horses should never be made uncomfortable, but in that case why would you bring your horse to _another _dressage show if he displayed such stressed behaviour at the first, showing his obvious discomfort? Or do you just cherrypick kicking as the one you think is bad?  Because you see people nagging horses, but i have never seen it be a welfare issue in three decades of riding. And judges pull people up all the time for misuse of spurs, or if a horse looks off, they would pull up someone if kicking was an issue too.

What is the different between you saying _'the judge said my horse was tense', he will be better next time with more milage' _ and someone else saying_ 'god my horse shut down  cause it was his first time in a ring and i had to nag him with my leg, he will be better next time'? _

Click to expand...

Funny comment this one! Wasnâ€™t it you who said he should be totally chilled next time? Wasnâ€™t it you who said you took your tense horse to â€œ6 little shows to settle himâ€

This is becoming rather a joke now, really what is the point in engaging when you say one thing and then to defend your friends something entirely different. The difference as I have been trying to get across is natural exuberance and excitement of a horse still nonetheless   willing vs a horse literally being forced to be â€œobedientâ€. I repeat for the 100th time, I NEVER saw on my horseâ€™s mouth or force an â€œoutlineâ€ he would back right off if I did that. Not sure why you are even bringing that up. 

Youâ€™re making this up as you go along.


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## tallyho! (22 December 2018)

Paddi22 may as well make up posts going along... you are


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Youâ€™re making this up as you go along.
		
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Someone is making this up as the go along, certainly. Itâ€™s not paddi...


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## Snitch (22 December 2018)




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## JennBags (22 December 2018)

@Melodra you seem to think that someone can be "accused" of mental health issues. As having MH problems are out of the control of the person who has them, its not an accusation, just a simple statement.  Much like if you said I was short-sighted, I don't take that as a personal slight as I am short-sighted. I wear glasses to correct my eyesight but I'm always going to be short-sighted.  Start calling me fatty four-eyes, it becomes a personal insult.

If you do have mental health issues, I suggest you make sure you take your meds and step away from the internet. You clearly have issues with understanding the written word as you are totally missing the points that people are making, such as the quote from paddi22; I can see her point clearly but you are completely misinterpreting it; I'm not sure if that's deliberate or just a lack of comprehension.


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			That didnâ€™t take long. You guys really do live here donâ€™t you? Millie, what was it you said about kicking your horse at Prelim?
		
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Not really, finished at the yard so popped back for some breakfast before starting the next jobs.  

Ah. Is THAT what this is all about? You've misquoted AGAIN. lol.

Since you refuse to, I will once again dig back to, ooh, page 5. 



milliepops said:



			My established horse was an absolute kickalong at prelim.
		
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Serious question, OP, is english not your first language? because this isn't the first time you've got into a pickle over a phrase in common usage.  A horse described as a kickalong means that it's behind the rider's leg. Not that the rider literally kicks it along 

I sense that you know that really, because your next post to me was this :



Melodra said:



			You trained her not to be a kick-along...you didn't carry on kicking her though did you?
		
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So you agree, I never did say that I either advocated kicking nor that I "kicked my horse through prelim"

Can we drop that one now?


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## Tihamandturkey (22 December 2018)

About time this thread wound up - people coming on just to make nasty comments - not cool


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## Goldenstar (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



View attachment 28309

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 Que the music for coming home for Christmas


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## Goldenstar (22 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			You were sympathetic until you saw your online friends having a go, so yes it was rather a surprise to see you change your entire viewpoint.

Why should you leave it alone? Not sure what you get out of goading and attacking a stranger. I know some people get off on it but really....itâ€™s a funny world isnâ€™t it?
		
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I have not changed view point at all .
I changed my view of you based on your behaviour .
My views on horses tests and training remain unaltered .
You can sure dish it out but you canâ€™t take it .


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## YorksG (22 December 2018)

Tihama said:



			About time this thread wound up - people coming on just to make nasty comments - not cool
		
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The way for threads to end, is by people stopping posting, how cool do you think it is to say that people are telling lies, the OP is the one who has made rude and personal remarks and been stigmatising about people with mental health problems.


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## PapaverFollis (22 December 2018)

I'm going to try and answer the original question again and this is not anything different then what people are already saying...

Being tense and whizzy is a fault. 
Being behind the leg is a fault.
They will both be marked down by a dressage judge.
The behind the leg horse MIGHT have better rhythm and accuracy do MIGHT just edge it on the scores. 
Without seeing both tests and test sheets it is not really possible to explain specifically why that specific horse MIGHT have beaten your specific horse on that specific day.
Hypothesizing about why is not a personal insult to you and your horse but you have taken it as such and attacked back. Or you are a troll and just arguing for the sake of it or because you have a personal gripe against some people on the forum.

Tension is a training problem that needs correcting.
Being behind the leg is a training problem that needs correcting.
Whether one is "worse" than the other is a matter of opinion and possibly preference or which one finds easier to correct.
Personally I'd rather have a whizzer to calm down than a plodder to gee up.  I don't like kicking though and would use a whip on my boot as a starting point to get a response to a lighter leg aid. And If probably rather use a schooling whip behind the leg even than pony club kicking (never had much success with kicking myself, but that's just my experience).

FWIW I'm not sure if a horse being "excited" is actually a happy excited horse in the way we as humans experience excitement. More the horse is in a heightened state and it's a type of stress. I'm a much happier human when my horses are relaxed and present in their heads than when they are "excited" and off somewhere in prey animal mode...

But that is a whole different discussion.


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## tallyho! (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Someone is making this up as the go along, certainly. Itâ€™s not paddi...
		
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ooooohhhhh noooo she iiiiissssssnnn'tt.........


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## SEL (22 December 2018)

Catching up with a hangover!

I've definitely been the person on the ploddy cob in the past (she was sweet & is now in her perfect home) & i have no doubt that it wasn't my prettiest riding. She still needed a pony club kick into canter on one rein at the time.

I was probably marked down on flapping legs because that's a common problem when I'm nervous. BUT I rarely lose marks for accuracy and little cob had a steady rhythm. She wasn't flashy and she was far from inspiring but she did a couple of solid tests. We weren't there to win, just to give a very green unschooled pony a new experience.

Would we have beaten tense? Possibly. Hard to say without seeing the actual rides. She was a kick-a-long, she was on the forehand but she was steady, relaxed and accurate in 2 pretty easy prelim tests and got consistent marks.

My.old boy would definitely be in the tense category. I used to struggle to control his hindquarters if he was tense so he wasn't straight and we'd rush, then back off the leg, then rush again etc. He had much, much better movement and a fabulous natural outline but little cob would have scored more highly if they were up against each other.

That's not to say yours was as bad as him, but having ridden both types I can see why one would score higher 

Btw if I can post the link then I liked this article 
https://www.horseanswerstoday.com/l...ssage/item/75-how-to-impress-a-dressage-judge


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## chattygoneon3 (22 December 2018)

Picking my way through this thread has been fun and Iâ€™ve found it both interesting and informative.
I spend a lot of time on the forum ( and still manage to do the horses and everything else thatâ€™s required) but donâ€™t post much unless I have something new or relevant to add. Iâ€™m also happy to stay anonymous. However, Iâ€™m very grateful to those members that let us into their horsey world and share photos and videos of their training and competitions. We are lucky to have so many members that post their obvious experience and knowledge.
Any one with experience knows that not all horses are the same and what works for one doesnâ€™t necessarily work for another. Being on the forum is a great place to discuss and learn, letâ€™s face it no one knows it all and there is always something new to learn. 
Re kicking , of course itâ€™s not what we want to be doing all the time, but sometimes itâ€™s necessary, have I kicked ? Of course. Should I hang my head in shame? Absolutely not. Will I do it again ? Undoubtedly.
Merry Christmas to one and all .


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## AdorableAlice (22 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			I just can't understand how anyone would train any horse if they never kicked it? Do you go straight to a whip then?
		
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What an awful thread, lets go back to training horses the correct way.

A horse that is so worried/sharp/tense to the extent it cannot tolerate the leg on has to be quietly taught that accepting the leg is its 'safe' place.  This type of horse, so sought after by the likes of Carl Hester, takes ages to train, to find trust in its rider and to be successful.

A horse that is dead to the leg has not been broken and ridden away properly.  It has not been taught to accept the leg and move forward and very likely not been halter broken properly either.  It has no conception of the 'move forward' request.

Both types have to accept being 'kicked' if they are to become safe, secure and successful as they go through their lives.  The way they get there is to receive correct, progressive and systematic training combined with various outings to build their confidence.

I do hope no one considers me to a bully on HHo.


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## KittenInTheTree (22 December 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			My horse stopped for a shit on a 20m circle in my first test. We got a 5 for that and it lost us a place. So what? It's not important. I was really pleased with her and neither the judging nor anyone's comments on the internet change that. I did get down about the judges comments for a bit but hey.
		
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Ignoring the rest of the thread, because I honestly don't care. But, yeah, this reminds me of something that I disagree with - people who won't let their horse stop for a poo when under saddle. I seriously hate those people. Not only because I think it's not fair on the horse, but also because making a horse keep moving whilst passing droppings results in a trail of manure for other people to pick up, as opposed to just the one tidy heap. Have some consideration and let your poor horse stop for a loo break! We all know you won't bother poo picking the arena afterwards, so it's really the least you can do for whoever has to sort that this time. And if it happens on a hack then ditto, because other people don't like having to play "Guess how far this trail of manure will last for?", especially not when we're on foot and you've apparently been making your horse dance the fandango whilst it poops. On the footpath (the people kind of footpath with a kerb, etc.), the road, the verge, seriously, what the actual Hades are you feeding this animal? Is it even an animal that's known to science? I mean, by this point, it looks as if you may have skipped riding entirely and just brought a big sack of poo with you and scattered it about randomly wherever anyone might step!

Damn, that felt good! So good in fact, that I think I'll add my complaint about people who don't bother making sure that their bit of the electric fencing isn't shorting out the power for everybody else on the yard. Those people suck too, and should be fed to something. I don't know exactly what, but something with teeth, that eats you slowly, perhaps taking as long as you've taken in terms of getting round to fixing your fencing.

Merry fecking Xmas to all.


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## PapaverFollis (22 December 2018)

I'd actually prefer it if she didn't stop to poop. But don't worry, I won't make anyone else clean it up...


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## Melodra (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			Not really, finished at the yard so popped back for some breakfast before starting the next jobs.  

Ah. Is THAT what this is all about? You've misquoted AGAIN. lol

Since you refuse to, I will once again dig back to, ooh, page 5. 



Serious question, OP, is english not your first language? because this isn't the first time you've got into a pickle over a phrase in common usage.  A horse described as a kickalong means that it's behind the rider's leg. Not that the rider literally kicks it along 

I sense that you know that really, because your next post to me was this :



So you agree, I never did say that I either advocated kicking nor that I "kicked my horse through prelim"

Can we drop that one now? 

Click to expand...

Dear me, sheâ€™s at it all day again ðŸ™„

What you actually said, Mills, was that you had to kick her through your Prelim tests because she was anxious. However you have since trained her through the levels and therefore in your view horses being kicked through a test at Prelim should not be disregarded as a future dressage prospect.


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Blimey, KittenInATree, is the tone of this thread infectious or something?


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## Melodra (22 December 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			I'm going to try and answer the original question again and this is not anything different then what people are already saying...

Being tense and whizzy is a fault. 
Being behind the leg is a fault.
They will both be marked down by a dressage judge.
The behind the leg horse MIGHT have better rhythm and accuracy do MIGHT just edge it on the scores. 
Without seeing both tests and test sheets it is not really possible to explain specifically why that specific horse MIGHT have beaten your specific horse on that specific day.
Hypothesizing about why is not a personal insult to you and your horse but you have taken it as such and attacked back. Or you are a troll and just arguing for the sake of it or because you have a personal gripe against some people on the forum.

Tension is a training problem that needs correcting.
Being behind the leg is a training problem that needs correcting.
Whether one is "worse" than the other is a matter of opinion and possibly preference or which one finds easier to correct.
Personally I'd rather have a whizzer to calm down than a plodder to gee up.  I don't like kicking though and would use a whip on my boot as a starting point to get a response to a lighter leg aid. And If probably rather use a schooling whip behind the leg even than pony club kicking (never had much success with kicking myself, but that's just my experience).

FWIW I'm not sure if a horse being "excited" is actually a happy excited horse in the way we as humans experience excitement. More the horse is in a heightened state and it's a type of stress. I'm a much happier human when my horses are relaxed and present in their heads than when they are "excited" and off somewhere in prey animal mode...

But that is a whole different discussion.
		
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Incorrect Iâ€™m afraid. I asked for thoughts. Three people gave me theirs. I thanked them politely (have a look at the first page of this thread) and said that while I understood the issues behind tension, in my view a horse being kicked along leaning on the riderâ€™s hands was not soft, submissive or harmonious.

That is not claiming to be attacked. The attacks came after this comment, specifically from Cortez who told me it was not my place to hold an opinion on this and matters degenerated from there.

This is a forum for all subscribers. Itâ€™s not simply a place for the regulars many of who appear to have zero life outside of it to put forward their â€œexpertâ€ opinion and trash those who dare to disagree. Itâ€™s actually not acceptable behaviour and in the real world would not be tolerated.

An excited horse is just that. Whether it is out playing in the field or getting out of the lorry at an event and seeing lots of other horses. Itâ€™s not ideal in a dressage test, but the horse is not in distress or discomfort. I agree with the term heightened state; itâ€™s not unnatural or unusual. Itâ€™s not really a training problem in a novice at his second event who is relaxed at home. If it became a persistent problem regardless of the horseâ€™s experience, then yes I might agree, however the huge improvement between first and second tests means Iâ€™m really not concerned at this stage.


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## ester (22 December 2018)

We do have a perfectly good quote button, I even gave you advise on how to best use it. Nowhere did MP say she was kicking though feel free to find other quotes that say otherwise to enlighten us all. Iâ€™m honestly gobsmacked that someone who got so cross about being misquoted will freely do it to others 



milliepops said:



			because their prelim work is the basic introduction to dressage shows, test patterns and the first opportunity most horses and riders have to learn about the competition environment.  It doesn't necessarily tell you much about what they will go on to achieve in the future.

My established horse was an absolute kickalong at prelim. She was behind my leg because she was anxious, we could work through it well at arena hire and lessons where there was more time but her time at the lower levels was very much about her learning how to deal with the additional stresses of the competition arena.
She's now competing at Inter1 level training towards I2 and very forward thinking, the progress has been made in 2 broad ways - 1. getting her accustomed to new places, working in with strange horses and then doing the same work between the boards, and 2. at home, developing her reactions to my aids to make her more sensitive so that even when she is distracted by a new environment she knows to still react to me appropriately.

To say that a horse can't progress if it starts off being backward thinking would be to dismiss thousands of horses!  It's generally not that difficult to tune up a horse that is a bit slow to the aids if you choose to address it, and as someone mentioned before those horses are often the easier and quicker to then train up because you aren't fighting their buzziness when trying to teach something new.
		
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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

ester said:



			We do have a perfectly good quote button, I even gave you advise on how to best use it. Nowhere did MP say she was kicking though feel free to find other quotes that say otherwise to enlighten us all. Iâ€™m honestly gobsmacked that someone who got so cross about being misquoted will freely do it to others
		
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But there's nothing like a bit of hypocrisy to rile up the regulars, while you're trip-trapping over the bridge...


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## ester (22 December 2018)

If I look at the first page of this thread there are three instances where I would consider you impolite. Would you like the screenshots?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2018)




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## blitznbobs (22 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



View attachment 28318

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 But what if you like petting them?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			But what if you like petting them?
		
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## Goldenstar (22 December 2018)

Yes we are adopting this one for Christmas .


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)




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## PapaverFollis (22 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			An excited horse is just that. Whether it is out playing in the field or getting out of the lorry at an event and seeing lots of other horses. Itâ€™s not ideal in a dressage test, but the horse is not in distress or discomfort. I agree with the term heightened state; itâ€™s not unnatural or unusual. Itâ€™s not really a training problem in a novice at his second event who is relaxed at home. If it became a persistent problem regardless of the horseâ€™s experience, then yes I might agree, however the huge improvement between first and second tests means Iâ€™m really not concerned at this stage.
		
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Is an excited horse "just that" though?

I would tend to say no. I'd say an "excited" horse is stressed or frustrated or anxious. A happy horse is loose and relaxed. I don't think they get excited in the same way we do. 

A horse that is tense when ridden has a training issue. That doesn't mean anything other than t is something that needs to be worked on. It's good that your horse improved between tests. That doesn't mean there isn't something there that still needs to be worked on? Would you like your horse to stay "tense" forever or would you like it to improve and become more relaxed? If you would like to see improvement then there is a training issue. The training may involve just taking him to more events... a training issue does not necessarily mean starting again from scratch. All horses have training issues because no horse is perfect...

It doesn't have to be unnatural or unusual for it to be something that needs improvement?

Personally I want my horse to not get into a heightened state as much as is possible. But at the same time in order to achieve that you need to take them a little out if their comfort zone in order to expand it. It's a balance. So a little heightened is ok but going nuts is not in my view. It's perfectly ok that your horse was tense, he was still responding to you etc which means you were stretching him but not overwhelming him.  And that's ok. But it is sonething that will lose you marks and something to improve upon.


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## Melodra (22 December 2018)

ester said:



			We do have a perfectly good quote button, I even gave you advise on how to best use it. Nowhere did MP say she was kicking though feel free to find other quotes that say otherwise to enlighten us all. Iâ€™m honestly gobsmacked that someone who got so cross about being misquoted will freely do it to others
		
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Aw, Ester, how sweet. You responded straight away, you must have been waiting for me. Honestly you really should try getting out more, there are lots of ways to meet real people in real life, salsa dancing, book clubs...life is about more than an Internet forum.

In the context of a discussion regarding whether kicking a horse through its test is really on, in the real world, itâ€™s generally safe to assume that when someone refers to their horse as a kick-along when defending kicking a horse (albeit using the euphemism â€œbehind the legâ€) that thatâ€™s what they are doing. I did ask Mills if she continued to kick the horse to make it more responsive and she could have said there and then that she didnâ€™t kick it if she meant something entirely different. My bad for taking what someone says at face value ðŸ™„

If you are all now claiming not to defend kicking a horse....then what are you arguing with me about? Lol.


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## Melodra (22 December 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			Is an excited horse "just that" though?

I would tend to say no. I'd say an "excited" horse is stressed or frustrated or anxious. A happy horse is loose and relaxed. I don't think they get excited in the same way we do. 

A horse that is tense when ridden has a training issue. That doesn't mean anything other than t is something that needs to be worked on. It's good that your horse improved between tests. That doesn't mean there isn't something there that still needs to be worked on? Would you like your horse to stay "tense" forever or would you like it to improve and become more relaxed? If you would like to see improvement then there is a training issue. The training may involve just taking him to more events... a training issue does not necessarily mean starting again from scratch. All horses have training issues because no horse is perfect...

It doesn't have to be unnatural or unusual for it to be something that needs improvement?

Personally I want my horse to not get into a heightened state as much as is possible. But at the same time in order to achieve that you need to take them a little out if their comfort zone in order to expand it. It's a balance. So a little heightened is ok but going nuts is not in my view. It's perfectly ok that your horse was tense, he was still responding to you etc which means you were stretching him but not overwhelming him.  And that's ok. But it is sonething that will lose you marks and something to improve upon.
		
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Hang on right there. You havenâ€™t read what I have said. I have not said at any stage this does not need to improve for him to progress. I do not believe, no, it is a training problem in an in an inexperienced horse at his second event who at that second event improved enormously. Therefore, if he continues to improve and relax with further experience (as seems likely given the progress we have already made) then there is no real problem. If it became a persistent issue, then yes, you may have a point. At this stage he is gaining experience at small unaff Prelim events and given the horse is totally relaxed at home, given the horse is showing a marked improvement, Iâ€™m happy weâ€™re going in the right direction at this stage


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## Goldenstar (22 December 2018)

What we where discussing before we bacame side tracked is Losgelassenheit ususally translated as suppleness but itâ€™s a word that does not really have a English translation.
The best description I have heard of this is , the horse gives itself up freely to be worked , itâ€™s a mental as well as a physical state .
Itâ€™s the second step of the scales of training after rhythm.
Both the tense rushing and the not forward horse are deficient in this respect .
At prelim especially at unaffiliated the judges will expect to see horses that are on their forehand so I think that why those horses tend to beat the tense excited ones and also their tests look more consistent which helps as well.


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## ester (22 December 2018)

Thank you for your concern about my welfare, Iâ€™m actually pretty sick today so have been on the forum between napping and Olympia watching. Iâ€™m most definitely blaming this on going out too much in the preceding week.

If you start using the assume word you arenâ€™t using facts are you. You didnâ€™t take it at Facebook value at all if you made assumptions as you state.


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## PapaverFollis (22 December 2018)

Then we are arguing semantics on the definition of a "training issue" (note I said issue not problem). To me a training issue is simply "something that requires improvement" even if it is currently improving. And taking a horse to more events to give it more experience is, in my view, working on your training issue.  You want him to improve so you're working on it, right?


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## blitznbobs (22 December 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			Then we are arguing semantics on the definition of a "training issue" (note I said issue not problem). To me a training issue is simply "something that requires improvement" even if it is currently improving. And taking a horse to more events to give it more experience is, in my view, working on your training issue.  You want him to improve so you're working on it, right?
		
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I love this - yes definitely a horse can have lots of issues because it simply hasnâ€™t learnt yet - this is normal - i love training horses and if they were all born perfect knowing exactly what I wanted I wouldnâ€™t enjoy riding half as much â€” I get bored if its all too easy. But then I donâ€™t go to competitions to beat the opposition I go to beat my old score - it tends to get me more success in the long run... I canâ€™t control others But i can work on my and my horses issues to get better next time - Iâ€™m selfish enough to not care what others are doing unless they are Wow... love watching the stars. Prelim is pretty boring to watch as a spectator and tbh I donâ€™t bring my horses out until novice (or elementary) these days so the only time I really watch these daysis when Iâ€™m judging


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## Rowreach (22 December 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			Is an excited horse "just that" though?

I would tend to say no. I'd say an "excited" horse is stressed or frustrated or anxious. A happy horse is loose and relaxed. I don't think they get excited in the same way we do.

.
		
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What, not even at CHRISTMAS????


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## EllenJay (22 December 2018)

Hi melodrama

Just wanted to tell you that I have reported your posts. You are being deliberately offensive and attacking members that have spent time giving you the benefit of their knowledge and experience without cost.

You may not agree with their insightful comments, but you are deliberately attacking them malaciously.  I personally don't always agree with everyone - but everyone here is saying the same thing.  Your horse is tense, you need to learn how to relax him in a competitive environment and your scores will improve.  Dressage is not comparing yourself against other competitors, but scoring yourself against the scales of training.  Obviously, on this day, you presented a stressed, tense horse, which at the level you are riding is not unexpected, how you deal with that going forward is totally down to you.

Now I know that you will take this completely the wrong way, but again that is down to you.  I am also sure that you will attack these comments, but - as they say"hey ho", and I don't give a damm.

Rather than having a hissy fit on an internet forum, work on getting your horse relaxed so that the next time you present him for a test, you give a lot more harmonious picture.  AND stop worrying about what other competitors are doing.


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## Tihamandturkey (22 December 2018)

FestiveG said:



			The way for threads to end, is by people stopping posting, how cool do you think it is to say that people are telling lies, the OP is the one who has made rude and personal remarks and been stigmatising about people with mental health problems.
		
Click to expand...

Pot kettle black ðŸ™„


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## Pinkvboots (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			what is the opposite of an electric bum called?

...no it's not a bad joke from a christmas cracker... I just thought perhaps we could work on answering it to distract ourselves from the rest of the thread 

Click to expand...

Power cut bum sorry couldnt resist


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2018)

Tihama said:



			Pot kettle black ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

No MrsJ, that's my comment, (already used in this thread) you cannot steal it ðŸ˜œ


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## Snitch (22 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			No MrsJ, that's my comment, (already used in this thread) you cannot steal it ðŸ˜œ
		
Click to expand...

Maybe itâ€™s time for a New Year Circle of Truth whereby all double posters can have a one week amnesty to fess up!


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## Snitch (22 December 2018)

We could create bingo boards and play Troll Bingo!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2018)




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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Well we've had the accusations of bullying,  the threat of a flounce and some supporters appearing out of the woodwork so I reckon we're pretty much at house already ðŸ˜‚


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## Snitch (22 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



View attachment 28330

Click to expand...

Yes!!  Letâ€™s do it!!


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			Well we've had the accusations of bullying,  the threat of a flounce and some supporters appearing out of the woodwork so I reckon we're pretty much at house already ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Secret supportive PMs would be on there, and clique-accusations...


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## Red-1 (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			Well we've had the accusations of bullying,  the threat of a flounce and some supporters appearing out of the woodwork so I reckon we're pretty much at house already ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

No, no one has asked how to have a post/thread removed. 

No one has had an infraction or whatever they are called.

No blank spaces with "content has been removed" on the thread.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			No, no one has asked how to have a post/thread removed.

No one has had an infraction or whatever they are called.

No blank spaces with "content has been removed" on the thread.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, so Fatty must be in the pub, not moderating..... paaarrrrty!


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Secret supportive PMs would be on there, and clique-accusations...
		
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, how silly of me to forget those ðŸ¤£


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## JennBags (22 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			No, no one has asked how to have a post/thread removed.

No one has had an infraction or whatever they are called.

No blank spaces with "content has been removed" on the thread.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly, this is a poor effort at the trolling ðŸ˜ˆ


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## Snitch (22 December 2018)

*****content removed*****

Reason:
Troll Bingo cheat.


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			*****content removed*****

Reason:
Troll Bingo cheat.
		
Click to expand...

Lolololol


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## Mule (22 December 2018)

KittenInTheTree said:



			Ignoring the rest of the thread, because I honestly don't care. But, yeah, this reminds me of something that I disagree with - people who won't let their horse stop for a poo when under saddle. I seriously hate those people. Not only because I think it's not fair on the horse, but also because making a horse keep moving whilst passing droppings results in a trail of manure for other people to pick up, as opposed to just the one tidy heap. Have some consideration and let your poor horse stop for a loo break! We all know you won't bother poo picking the arena afterwards, so it's really the least you can do for whoever has to sort that this time. And if it happens on a hack then ditto, because other people don't like having to play "Guess how far this trail of manure will last for?", especially not when we're on foot and you've apparently been making your horse dance the fandango whilst it poops. On the footpath (the people kind of footpath with a kerb, etc.), the road, the verge, seriously, what the actual Hades are you feeding this animal? Is it even an animal that's known to science? I mean, by this point, it looks as if you may have skipped riding entirely and just brought a big sack of poo with you and scattered it about randomly wherever anyone might step!

Damn, that felt good! So good in fact, that I think I'll add my complaint about people who don't bother making sure that their bit of the electric fencing isn't shorting out the power for everybody else on the yard. Those people suck too, and should be fed to something. I don't know exactly what, but something with teeth, that eats you slowly, perhaps taking as long as you've taken in terms of getting round to fixing your fencing.

Merry fecking Xmas to all.
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ I think the reason people don't is in case it decides to stop in the dressage arena.


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## Snitch (22 December 2018)

Ok, Iâ€™ll start with the Circle of Truth!

Iâ€™m Milliepops and Iâ€™m a trolloholic.


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## albeg (22 December 2018)

A Mule In A Manager said:



			ðŸ˜‚ I think the reason people don't is in case it decides to stop in the dressage arena.
		
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Or in front of a showjump! ðŸ˜‚


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## Rowreach (22 December 2018)

Ooh if weâ€™re doing bingo do we each get one of those special blobby pens??


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## Red-1 (22 December 2018)

A Mule In A Manager said:



			ðŸ˜‚ I think the reason people don't is in case it decides to stop in the dressage arena.
		
Click to expand...

I once had one stop for a pee. I think the test sheet said "inattentive" or something similar. Dropped marks for it, but made us all laugh with the associated horse lack of dignity, farting and groaning...



Nooooooo ... EDITED TO ADD ****** the horse NOT me!!!**********


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

A Mule In A Manager said:



			ðŸ˜‚ I think the reason people don't is in case it decides to stop in the dressage arena.
		
Click to expand...

My trainer announced we were now aiming at GP the other week and kira responded by doing her first on-the-move poo *ever*
I take it she has recognised that GP horses can poo and trot at the same time.
I let them stop at home because of the issue with picking up poo shrapnel but it sure as hell backfires in competition ðŸ™„


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			Ok, Iâ€™ll start with the Circle of Truth!

Iâ€™m Milliepops and Iâ€™m a trolloholic.
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2018)

Rowreach said:



			Ooh if weâ€™re doing bingo do we each get one of those special blobby pens?? 

Click to expand...

No, just this


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## Cortez (22 December 2018)

Pooing in a test is also taken as a sign of *whispers*: tension.....


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## Red-1 (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			My trainer announced we were now aiming at GP the other week and kira responded by doing her first on-the-move poo *ever*
I take it she has recognised that GP horses can poo and trot at the same time.
I let them stop at home because of the issue with picking up poo shrapnel but it sure as hell backfires in competition ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

Did you have to give her a kick?  ************runs and hides*************


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

A very rough effort...


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Me next 
My name is TXF and I'm a spambot


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2018)




----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Good job youâ€™ve got a sense of humour ðŸ˜ŠðŸ˜Š


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			Me next
My name is TXF and I'm a spambot
		
Click to expand...

I thank you!  Party anyone?


----------



## Red-1 (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			A very rough effort...

View attachment 28332

Click to expand...


You forgot POPCORN!!!!!


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## Cortez (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			A very rough effort...

View attachment 28332

Click to expand...

Now I'm sitting here in tears..........of laughter. You, Ma'am, are a *genius*!!!


----------



## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Pooing in a test is also taken as a sign of *whispers*: tension.....
		
Click to expand...

I think that's definitely why kira shit herself ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Auslander (22 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Pooing in a test is also taken as a sign of *whispers*: tension.....
		
Click to expand...

We used to call it the "Poo and Flee Reflex" when I was riding baby racehorses.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			A very rough effort...

View attachment 28332

Click to expand...

Excellent work !


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Now I'm sitting here in tears..........of laughter. You, Ma'am, are a genius!!!
		
Click to expand...

And, apparently, the Queen.  Nobody's ever called me Ma'am before.  I'm not sure whether to say "Sir is acceptable in a crunch" ("It's not crunch time yet, Mr Kim"), or to put on a head scarf and take Fergus for a hack


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			You forgot POPCORN!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Those are generally responses from the other posters, rather than the troll themself...  But one could have Troll-thread bingo too


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Def the headscarf 
Don't forget the photos


----------



## Cortez (22 December 2018)

I think we should all wear headscarves, as a sign of our cliquishness?


----------



## albeg (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			And, apparently, the Queen.  Nobody's ever called me Ma'am before.  I'm not sure whether to say "Sir is acceptable in a crunch" ("It's not crunch time yet, Mr Kim"), or to put on a head scarf and take Fergus for a hack 

Click to expand...

Headscarf. And live instagram.


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## Mule (22 December 2018)

Is there also something about pooing being a sign of them starting to release over the back?


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			Def the headscarf
Don't forget the photos
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I can run to a head-protecting Hermes scarf.  I'm more of a "cheap scarf I bought on t'internet so I didn't have to talk to anyone" kind of person


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## Red-1 (22 December 2018)

A Mule In A Manager said:



			Is there also something about pooing being a sign of them starting to release over the back?
		
Click to expand...

I don't know how your horse releases, but mine is grey and I can definitely confirm she releases down her hocks (and tail) rather than her back


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## Cortez (22 December 2018)

A Mule In A Manager said:



			Is there also something about pooing being a sign of them starting to release over the back?
		
Click to expand...

Actually, *actually*, it's probably more like a sign that they have to go to the loo.


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## Snitch (22 December 2018)

A Mule In A Manager said:



			Is there also something about pooing being a sign of them starting to release over the back?
		
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What, Trolls?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			I think we should all wear headscarves, as a sign of our cliquishness?
		
Click to expand...

Like this?


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			I think we should all wear headscarves, as a sign of our cliquishness?
		
Click to expand...

Oh now that's an idea...  We could really intimidate new users if we all wore matching headscarves at them...


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## Mule (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			What, Trolls?
		
Click to expand...

Imagining a pooing troll nowðŸ˜‚


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			I'm not sure I can run to a head-protecting Hermes scarf.  I'm more of a "cheap scarf I bought on t'internet so I didn't have to talk to anyone" kind of person 

Click to expand...

We aren't fussy
Whatever you deem appropriate,  ma'am


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## Red-1 (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			I'm not sure I can run to a head-protecting Hermes scarf.  I'm more of a "cheap scarf I bought on t'internet so I didn't have to talk to anyone" kind of person 

Click to expand...

I have just the thing for you....




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=515923772249995


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Actually, *actually*, it's probably more like a sign that they have to go to the loo.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure mine can manage a loo, to be fair.  Even if I didn't keep kicking them in the ribs while they were trying to use it


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## Snitch (22 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			Like this?
View attachment 28335

Click to expand...

Do I get to choose my own colour, though?


----------



## milliepops (22 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			Like this?
View attachment 28335

Click to expand...

Oooh good haughty stare, there


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			I have just the thing for you....




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=515923772249995



Click to expand...

Perfect!


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## Cortez (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			Do I get to choose my own colour, though?
		
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No! There will be specific colours according to how horrible you are, starting with puce.


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## albeg (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Perfect!
		
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Festive too!


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Oh now that's an idea...  We could really intimidate new users if we all wore matching headscarves at them...
		
Click to expand...

This really made me laugh a lot, by the way, I'm still laughing and OH is fuming ðŸ˜‚


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			This really made me laugh a lot.
		
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It's an unusual approach to threatening people, but I think it could work...


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## Cortez (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			This really made me laugh a lot.
		
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Are you crying, though?


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Are you crying, though?
		
Click to expand...

No cos I'm a spambot not a troll ðŸ˜‰


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## Tihamandturkey (22 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			No MrsJ, that's my comment, (already used in this thread) you cannot steal it ðŸ˜œ
		
Click to expand...

Sorry I think you're confused I'm not Mrs J  ðŸ˜† I must have missed that post ðŸ˜


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Are you crying, though?
		
Click to expand...

That's rather a harsh post C, leave MP to sob quietly ðŸ˜‡


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## Cortez (22 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			That's rather a harsh post C, leave MP to sob quietly ðŸ˜‡
		
Click to expand...

But her tears are so *delicious*...oh, sorry: wrong movie


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## Mule (22 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			I don't know how your horse releases, but mine is grey and I can definitely confirm she releases down her hocks (and tail) rather than her back  

Click to expand...

My grey is good at releasing it on his hocks and tail, especially after I've groomed itðŸ˜


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2018)

Tihama said:



			Sorry I think you're confused I'm not Mrs J  ðŸ˜† I must have missed that post ðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

No, no confusion at all, I'm happy with my surmising ta. 
Mrs J, OP and you, all on the same IP address


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## Snitch (22 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			That's rather a harsh post C, leave MP to sob quietly ðŸ˜‡
		
Click to expand...

Yes, itâ€™s the season of goodwill, ffs.


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			It's an unusual approach to threatening people, but I think it could work...
		
Click to expand...

You do realise, if one of us
*wears headscarf at troll*
In the future,  they possibly have a case for crying "clique!" now ...


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## Red-1 (22 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			No, no confusion at all, I'm happy with my surmising ta.
Mrs J, OP and you, all on the same IP address  

Click to expand...

Eh? How do you find someone's IP address?

ETA - not that I really know what an IP address is


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			You do realise, if one of us
*wears headscarf at troll*
In the future,  they possibly have a case for crying "clique!" now ...
		
Click to expand...

True...  But are we worried about upsetting the precious little troll?!


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## albeg (22 December 2018)

A Mule In A Manager said:



			My grey is good at releasing it on his hocks and tail, especially after I've groomed itðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

And during grooming for mine!

Also down the inside of his travel boots.


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## Tihamandturkey (22 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			No, no confusion at all, I'm happy with my surmising ta. 
Mrs J, OP and you, all on the same IP address  

Click to expand...

I think you're a bit clever for your own good tbh I can assure you there is no connection - had too many drinky poos have we???


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## Mule (22 December 2018)

Fleece Navidad said:



			And during grooming for mine!

Also down the inside of his travel boots.
		
Click to expand...

Ugh, the travel boots are the worst! If you ever see someone at a show scowling while wiping a grey horse's legs with a baby wipe it's likely to be me.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2018)

Tihama said:



			I think you're a bit clever for your own good tbh I can assure you there is no connection - had too many drinky poos have we???
		
Click to expand...

Not yet ta


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

OK, now the trolls are suggesting that, not only do we keep the horse stationary during pooing, for ease of collection, now we drink them too?!


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## PapaverFollis (22 December 2018)

I'm pretty sure The Beast just thinks the arena is some kind of horse litter tray.  I got a very diplomatic "lost trot" comment and a 5.0 when she did it in our dressage test.  It made a change from all the rest of the comments "lacking purpose". Despite the fact that from my perspective on board she felt like a bomb about to go. Thems the breaks.


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## albeg (22 December 2018)

A Mule In A Manager said:



			Ugh, the travel boots are the worst! If you ever see someone at a show scowling while wiping a grey horse's legs with a baby wipe it's likely to be me.
		
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I'll be the other one, muttering rude things about him under my breath (probably because he's also waited for me to unwrap his tail to "decorate" it)

(only realised you're also over here just now!)


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## Cortez (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			OK, now the trolls are suggesting that, not only do we keep the horse stationary during pooing, for ease of collection, now we drink them too?!
		
Click to expand...

Doesn't really go with the headscarf, though?


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## albeg (22 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Doesn't really go with the headscarf, though?
		
Click to expand...

Fancy hipflask?


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Doesn't really go with the headscarf, though?
		
Click to expand...

I can't see Her Queenly-ness doing that in her Hermes, can you?!


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## Cortez (22 December 2018)

Fleece Navidad said:



			Fancy hipflask?
		
Click to expand...

Of course!!


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## tallyho! (22 December 2018)

Had to pop out before the interval... what did I miss?


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

tipsytinsel said:



			Sheâ€™s behind you!!!
		
Click to expand...

The Queen?!

Or the Ugly Stepsister?


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## Mule (22 December 2018)

Fleece Navidad said:



			I'll be the other one, muttering rude things (only realised you're also over here just now!)
		
Click to expand...

If I see someone else muttering at a grey with a baby wipe in hand, I'll assume it's you


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

tipsytinsel said:



			Had to pop out before the interval... what did I miss?
		
Click to expand...

*everything * ðŸ¤©
Pop yer headscarf on and join in


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## Mule (22 December 2018)

tipsytinsel said:



			Had to pop out before the interval... what did I miss?
		
Click to expand...

Headscarves and horseshit!


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## albeg (22 December 2018)

A Mule In A Manager said:



			If I see someone else muttering at a grey with a baby wipe in hand, I'll assume it's you 

Click to expand...

If that doesn't identify me, I'll be continuing to call him rude things as he spooks at every horse he passes (as he continues to release over his tail and hocks)  ðŸ˜‚


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2018)

A Mule In A Manager said:



			Headscarves and horseshit!
		
Click to expand...

And troll parties ðŸ˜‡

Or in other words, go and bloody read the thread you nincompoop  ðŸ˜œ , aimed at tipsytinsel


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## tallyho! (22 December 2018)

Righty-ho! Headscarf on... rewinding the veedee....


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## Pinkvboots (22 December 2018)

I really love the troll film am I weird


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## Snitch (22 December 2018)

Pinkvboots said:



			I really love the troll film am I weird
		
Click to expand...

Canâ€™t say as I havenâ€™t seen it ðŸ˜


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## Mule (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			*everything * ðŸ¤©
Pop yer headscarf on and join in
		
Click to expand...

Just noticed your profile postðŸ˜‚


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

I'd LOVE a troll film.

But that's probably not what "the" troll film is...


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## Pinkvboots (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			Canâ€™t say as I havenâ€™t seen it ðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

I love the songs they sing watched it at Equifest with my friends 2 young kids, we had a great time singing along


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## albeg (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			I'd LOVE a troll film.

But that's probably not what "the" troll film is...
		
Click to expand...

I think there's a lot more singing and dancing in "the" film.


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

*misses the point*
I liked the boxtrolls, they were at least cute


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## Bernster (22 December 2018)

You lot are off your TROLLey !


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Fleece Navidad said:



			I think there's a lot more singing and dancing in "the" film.
		
Click to expand...

How do YOU know that forum trolls aren't singing and dancing their way through these ridiculous threads?!


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## albeg (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			How do YOU know that forum trolls aren't singing and dancing their way through these ridiculous threads?!
		
Click to expand...

Too busy flouncing and shouting "clique!"


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## Tihamandturkey (22 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			Eh? How do you find someone's IP address?

ETA - not that I really know what an IP address is 

Click to expand...

I have no idea either but I really am a separate identity ðŸ˜…


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## Snitch (22 December 2018)

Iâ€™m wearing my scarf; but Iâ€™m incognito as I may be a Troll and donâ€™t want to be rumbled.


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Fleece Navidad said:



			Too busy flouncing and shouting "clique!" 

Click to expand...

Maybe they're singing it, with jazz hands...

All together now

"I've seen it in the Clubhouse, I've seen it in Tack Rooom, The Trolls are all around us, so the batshit grows!  It's written on the forum, in every thread I post, so if you really love trolls, come on and goad us most!"


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## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			Iâ€™m wearing my scarf; but Iâ€™m incognito as I may be a Troll and donâ€™t want to be rumbled.
		
Click to expand...

I think you win the thread, snitch.


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## tallyho! (22 December 2018)

What a cliffhanger!!!!! Same IP address?!?! Troll 007! I am loving this... not only tightening my headscarf but donning the oversized sunglasses..... 

*popcorn crunch*


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## Snitch (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			I think you win the thread, snitch.
		
Click to expand...

Do I get a badge or summat?! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


----------



## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			Do I get a badge or summat?! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

We need to wait for @ester to come back for those ðŸ˜‰


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			We need to wait for @ester to come back for those ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

Where is @ester anyway?  She's missing all the fun...


----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Where is @ester anyway?  She's missing all the fun...
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s just what I was thinking!


----------



## albeg (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Maybe they're singing it, with jazz hands...

All together now

"I've seen it in the Clubhouse, I've seen it in Tack Rooom, The Trolls are all around us, so the batshit grows!  It's written on the forum, in every thread I post, so if you really love trolls, come on and goad us most!"
		
Click to expand...

I like the choice of tune!


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Fleece Navidad said:



			I like the choice of tune!
		
Click to expand...

I don't - Love Actually is on in the background.  There may be vomit involved in the near future


----------



## albeg (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			I don't - Love Actually is on in the background.  There may be vomit involved in the near future 

Click to expand...

Would you like the trolls to ruin a favourite tune? 

Should we send help?


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Fleece Navidad said:



			Would you like the trolls to ruin a favourite tune? 

Should we send help?
		
Click to expand...

An excellent point, well made.

If the help could rescue me after the Hugh Grant - PM dancing scene, that'd be grand.  It's literally all I'm here for


----------



## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Fleece Navidad said:



			I like the choice of tune!
		
Click to expand...

What's the tune supposed to be ðŸ˜‚
I had that Lazy song in my head from the early noughties ðŸ™ˆ (heart fm on the way back from Olympia on Tues night)


----------



## albeg (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			An excellent point, well made.

If the help could rescue me after the Hugh Grant - PM dancing scene, that'd be grand.  It's literally all I'm here for 

Click to expand...

I'll go find my coat


----------



## albeg (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			What's the tune supposed to be ðŸ˜‚
I had that Lazy song in my head from the early noughties ðŸ™ˆ (heart fm on the way back from Olympia on Tues night)
		
Click to expand...

Trolls are (Love is) all around


----------



## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Oh a bit different then ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
I see it now ðŸ˜„
Though for those fancying some retro cheese-pop the syllables work equally well ðŸ˜‚


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Fleece Navidad said:



			I'll go find my coat







Click to expand...

Well I'm happy.  Nothing makes me happy like the thought of a PM dancing around Downing Street.

The thought of a human prime minster, rather than some kind of child eating reptile...  Can you imagine if Rees Mogg ever made it into no. 10...  *Vomits copiously*


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Although, in fairness, he does look more like a crab than a human, if you watch that GIF for long enough...


----------



## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Um, I think the current pm might dance round number 10... It's the stuff of nightmares ðŸ˜±


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			Um, I think the current pm might dance round number 10... It's the stuff of nightmares ðŸ˜±
		
Click to expand...

Can we really, in all good conscience, describe that as "dancing"?  I thought it was more "disturbing ritualistic movement"...


----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

You want to see the Prime Minister dancing?


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			You want to see the Prime Minister dancing?







Click to expand...

That's not a dance, that's a cry for help


----------



## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Get @FestiveG In!
Oh, wait
She might not be qualified ðŸ™„


----------



## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			You want to see the Prime Minister dancing?







Click to expand...

Snitch you win again, ester needs to make you 2 badges


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			Get @FestiveG In!
Oh, wait
She might not be qualified ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure she's got enough compassion not to dismiss this cry for help...


----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			I'm not sure she's got enough compassion not to dismiss this cry for help...
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s what you get for choosing a lazy profession, with inadequately crappy qualifications!


----------



## YorksG (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			Get @FestiveG In!
Oh, wait
She might not be qualified ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is qualified to offer help in response to that cry!!!!!!!


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			Thatâ€™s what you get for choosing a lazy profession, with inadequately crappy qualifications!
		
Click to expand...

Too slow witted to cope with anything too challenging, after all...


----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			Snitch you win again, ester needs to make you 2 badges
		
Click to expand...

YESSSSSS!!!!!!
Note my shoutyness!  
PS: is this deemed bullying?!?!

(If so, you cannot possibly fathom the enormity of the sh!t I donâ€™t give)


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

FestiveG said:



			I don't think anyone is qualified to offer help in response to that cry!!!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Satan?  The good lord himself?

Of course, if you don't believe in him, there's only the power vacuum of his absence, or some kind of natural law to appeal to...


----------



## albeg (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Of course, if you don't believe in him, there's only the power vacuum of his absence
		
Click to expand...

Is that more powerful than Henry Hoover?


----------



## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			YESSSSSS!!!!!!
Note my shoutyness!  
PS: is this deemed bullying?!?!

(If so, you cannot possibly fathom the enormity of the sh!t I donâ€™t give)
		
Click to expand...

Well you've got your headscarf on so it's intimidating if nothing else


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Fleece Navidad said:



			Is that more powerful than Henry Hoover?
		
Click to expand...

More like a Dyson.  All gimmick, no bloody use.  

6 minutes on full power?  Call that a useful cordless vacuum, do you?!


----------



## JennBags (22 December 2018)

I haven't been invited to join this headscarf clique. You're just a load of bullies, I've had loads of PMs saying how horrible you all are for not asking me. I'm leaving this nasty forum for EVER.


----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

JennBags said:



			I haven't been invited to join this headscarf clique. You're just a load of bullies, I've had loads of PMs saying how horrible you all are for not asking me. I'm leaving this nasty forum for EVER.
		
Click to expand...


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

JennBags said:



			I haven't been invited to join this headscarf clique. You're just a load of bullies, I've had loads of PMs saying how horrible you all are for not asking me. I'm leaving this nasty forum for EVER.
		
Click to expand...

Put your headscarf on and hush yourself, dear.


----------



## blitznbobs (22 December 2018)

Can I vote for this being the best thread ever, funny, informative, bitchy, clever and shows that even in adversity truly horsey people never lose their sense of humour ... bravo peeps bravo...


----------



## JennBags (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



View attachment 28337

Click to expand...

Now you're calling me a Barbie girl. Huh. I'm not in a Barbie world.
Bully.



*think I preferred the other song going round my head*


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

JennBags said:



			Now you're calling me a Barbie girl. Huh. I'm not in a Barbie world.
Bully.



*think I preferred the other song going round my head*
		
Click to expand...

But it's fantastic to be plastic!


----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

LINE!!


----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

JennBags said:



			Now you're calling me a Barbie girl. Huh. I'm not in a Barbie world.
Bully.



*think I preferred the other song going round my head*
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			LINE!!

View attachment 28338

Click to expand...

JFTD, wait..... have you got Copyright?!  Weâ€™d better add litigation to the Bingo Board.....


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			JFTD, wait..... have you got Copyright?!  We better add litigation to the Bingo Board.....
		
Click to expand...

I probably can't afford the legal fees to enforce it


----------



## vam (22 December 2018)

Thank you guys for changing one of the weirdest threads into an epic one!  made the journey home from Olympia much better.
Still think the op is crackers thou.....


----------



## PapaverFollis (22 December 2018)

I think "I'm going to get you sacked" was a particular gem. Not a common one though so perhaps some kind of bonus square on the bingo board. *has no idea how bingo works in reality*


----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

Well no, but you can still threaten it, surely?

I had a Troll on here once threaten me with legal action for slander....  True story.
(Except it would have been libel, if it were true)


----------



## JennBags (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			I probably can't afford the legal fees to enforce it 

Click to expand...

I can't even afford to buy my dog a bed that's the right size for her, apparently

__
		https://flic.kr/p/2dJkw3r


----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			I think "I'm going to get you sacked" was a particular gem. Not a common one though so perhaps some kind of bonus square on the bingo board. *has no idea how bingo works in reality*
		
Click to expand...

Valid contribution right there.


----------



## albeg (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			But it's fantastic to be plastic!
		
Click to expand...

Sounds a bit environmentally unfriendly.


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

JennBags said:



			I can't even afford to buy my dog a bed that's the right size for her, apparently

__
		https://flic.kr/p/2dJkw3r


Click to expand...

Shame on you!  Send her my way!  My dog doesn't even have a bed.  He chooses to sleep on the cold hard ground instead.



Snitch said:



			Well no, but you can still threaten it, surely?

I had a Troll on here once threaten me with legal action for slander....  True story.
(Except it would have been libel, if it were true)
		
Click to expand...

I would, at least, have used the correct terminology...


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Fleece Navidad said:



			Sounds a bit environmentally unfriendly.
		
Click to expand...

It's fantastic to BE plastic, I'm sure.  It's just rubbish for the rest of the world which isn't


----------



## JennBags (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Shame on you!  Send her my way!
		
Click to expand...

*wraps dog in brown paper and puts a 2nd class stamp on*


----------



## JennBags (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			It's fantastic to BE plastic, I'm sure.  It's just rubbish for the rest of the world which isn't 

Click to expand...

Only rubbish when it's rubbish though. Plastic isn't the problem, plastic waste is the problem. Tense plastic waste is the worst, although kickalong plastic waste is also pretty rubbish.


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

JennBags said:



			*wraps dog in brown paper and puts a 2nd class stamp on*
		
Click to expand...

I feel like I'm going to have a heft "insufficient postage" fine when she arrives!


----------



## milliepops (22 December 2018)

JennBags said:



			Only rubbish when it's rubbish though. Plastic isn't the problem, plastic waste is the problem. Tense plastic waste is the worst, although kickalong plastic waste is also pretty rubbish.
		
Click to expand...

*arrives*
Did someone need something kicked?


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

JennBags said:



			Only rubbish when it's rubbish though. Plastic isn't the problem, plastic waste is the problem. Tense plastic waste is the worst, although kickalong plastic waste is also pretty rubbish.
		
Click to expand...

True, but I'm lazy and I didn't bother to qualify plastic with single use / unnecessary plastic.  My plastic is all kick along - I can't stand tense plastic...


----------



## JennBags (22 December 2018)

Yoire all so horrible, abusing your plastic ðŸ¤¬ðŸ¤¬ðŸ¤¬ðŸ¤¬ðŸ¤¬


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

JennBags said:



			Yoire all so horrible, abusing your plastic ðŸ¤¬ðŸ¤¬ðŸ¤¬ðŸ¤¬ðŸ¤¬
		
Click to expand...

Can't help it - I'm plasticist.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (22 December 2018)

I'm uphauled that that pic of me flouncing off in my little plane has been used without my permission!


----------



## JennBags (22 December 2018)

Discusting ðŸ¤¬ sue them for slander


----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

JennBags said:



			I can't even afford to buy my dog a bed that's the right size for her, apparently

__
		https://flic.kr/p/2dJkw3r


Click to expand...

Sorry, but this right here is nothing to be proud of.  But Iâ€™ve just scored a Bingo point since Iâ€™m accusing you of neglect, so ta for that.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (22 December 2018)

Too blimmin' right! 

*grabs head scarf and waves it furiously*


----------



## blitznbobs (22 December 2018)

Do they still have that bit in the magazine that has something likethe 5 top threads on the forum printed in it .... I would wet myself if this thread
Made it on some level into the mag...


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			Do they still have that bit in the magazine that has something likethe 5 top threads on the forum printed in it .... I would wet myself if this thread
Made it on some level into the mag...
		
Click to expand...

Does anyone out there actually still buy the magazine?!


----------



## milliepops (22 December 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			Do they still have that bit in the magazine that has something likethe 5 top threads on the forum printed in it .... I would wet myself if this thread
Made it on some level into the mag...
		
Click to expand...

Ooh good question 
It was always sad when the club house threads never made it but I think this is a qualifying sub forum ðŸ˜‰


----------



## milliepops (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Does anyone out there actually still buy the magazine?!
		
Click to expand...

Only when my pony gets a mention ðŸ˜‚
Got a scrapbook, dontchaknow


----------



## JennBags (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Does anyone out there actually still buy the magazine?!
		
Click to expand...

Not me, they trebled the price and got a huge eff off from me!


----------



## JennBags (22 December 2018)

milliepops said:



			Only when my pony gets a mention ðŸ˜‚
Got a scrapbook, dontchaknow
		
Click to expand...

The only time I've bought it in the last few years is when mp has been in it *secret stalker*


*may not be a secret anymore*


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

JennBags said:



			Not me, they trebled the price and got a huge eff off from me!
		
Click to expand...

I've never bought it.  I don't see the attraction, really.  Unless you get your pony a photo in it, like MP!


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Although I did once get a Fergs thread into the top 5 posts though...


----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

Iâ€™ve only got two social science degrees, so Iâ€™m too dim and too lazy to read printed material.

ETA both useless when trying to stop somebody jumping off a bridge in their living room.


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			Iâ€™ve only got two social science degrees, so Iâ€™m too dim and too lazy to read printed material.
		
Click to expand...

Me too.

I mean, I wrote a substantial book (of sorts) for one of mine.  But clearly I'm a right thicko who can't string a sentence together or keep track of a line of argu... what now?


----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Me too.

I mean, I wrote a substantial book (of sorts) for one of mine.  But clearly I'm a right thicko who can't string a sentence together or keep track of a line of argu... what now?
		
Click to expand...

Serves you right for being too lazy to do a proper degree.  Loser.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (22 December 2018)

Well I'm a little cat and I failed my mouse catching exam as I caught a caterpillar insead (even though it was a good one - elephant hawk moth).


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

True - but I'm also too lazy to build a bridge in my living room, so that I can jump off it without missing any of my daytime TV...

So at least I'm winning at something.


----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

Faracat said:



			Well I'm a little cat and I failed my mouse catching exam as I caught a caterpillar insead (even though it was a good one - elephant hawk moth). 

Click to expand...

Is your cat wearing a headscarf?  I love it!


----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			True - but I'm also too lazy to build a bridge in my living room, so that I can jump off it without missing any of my daytime TV...

So at least I'm winning at something.
		
Click to expand...

Youâ€™re winning at wearing a humorous headscarf, my love.


----------



## JFTDWS (22 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			Youâ€™re winning at wearing a humorous headscarf, my love.
		
Click to expand...

Not many people can pull it off, but..


----------



## Snitch (22 December 2018)

Can I just point out that not one person has â€˜likedâ€™ my matching lipstick..... bitchy and no need for it tbh.

And before anyone starts being bitchy about my tash, Iâ€™ve asked for a no no no no no no for Christmas!


----------



## paddi22 (23 December 2018)

i think i tracked down video from the day and found the kicking opponent who beat the Op
. In fairness, thats a lot of kicking


----------



## tallyho! (23 December 2018)

Oh my..... a judges' dream 

Tense, relaxed AND kickalong!

Bingo?


----------



## PapaverFollis (23 December 2018)

That video is almost as bonkers as this thread. 


Almost.


----------



## ester (23 December 2018)

Good lord
Ermm whoâ€™s getting sacked?
Sorry re badges am poorly Ester was in bed by 6.30


----------



## Snitch (23 December 2018)

ester said:



			Good lord
Ermm whoâ€™s getting sacked?
Sorry re badges am poorly Ester was in bed by 6.30 

Click to expand...

FestiveG is getting sacked, apparently.  Or maybe sheâ€™ll just do the decent thing and resign!

Feel better soon, Ester!


----------



## Quadro (23 December 2018)

3 days this thread has taken me to readðŸ˜‚
That is all!


----------



## JFTDWS (23 December 2018)

Quadro said:



			3 days this thread has taken me to readðŸ˜‚
That is all!
		
Click to expand...

And wasn't it time well spent?!


----------



## milliepops (23 December 2018)

to round it all off, I suggest any headscarf members, prospective members or supporters club members search "helen ingham spat my brew out" on facebook for a rousing singalong that sums it all up beautifully. NSFW!!!

(Pm me for the link if you can't find it)


----------



## JFTDWS (23 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			i think i tracked down video from the day and found the kicking opponent who beat the Op
. In fairness, thats a lot of kicking






Click to expand...

Epic!  I wondered if the OP had gotten confused between DRESSAGE and BARREL RACING, and accidentally watched the wrong ring, and wondered why her opponents were being kicked along, and so, so downhill...







(eta: this is not what I consider nice.  Obviously!)


----------



## Quadro (23 December 2018)

Well it did help me have a good sleep at the begining. The bullying stuff just made me laugh. Sure that will make me some akin to a child snatcher


----------



## Bernster (23 December 2018)

Paddi what the hell did I just watch??


----------



## Meowy Catkin (23 December 2018)

I'd love a gaited horse. 

That reminds me, does anyone else remember the crazy thread about that Paso Fino showing off its natural moves and how terribly cruel it was to 'make' a horse move that way? Ahhh, happy days!


----------



## DabDab (23 December 2018)

Faracat said:



			I'd love a gaited horse. 

That reminds me, does anyone else remember the crazy thread about that Paso Fino showing off its natural moves and how terribly cruel it was to 'make' a horse move that way? Ahhh, happy days! 

Click to expand...

Yes! Though I'm not sure if the one I'm thinking of was predated by another, because I remember reading it thinking the discussion seemed like it had picked up from another.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (23 December 2018)

IIRC, the original poster of the original Paso thread kindly fanned the flames by stating that the extra gaits 'were as natural as Big Lick' or something along those lines.


----------



## DabDab (23 December 2018)

Faracat said:



			IIRC, the original poster of the original Paso thread kindly fanned the flames by stating that the extra gaits 'were as natural as Big Lick' or something along those lines. 

Click to expand...

Yep, that's the one I was thinking of ðŸ˜

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/surely-this-isnt-right.706663/


----------



## Meowy Catkin (23 December 2018)

The vid from that old thread looks so tame now that I've seen Paddi's T-Rex and giant football one!


----------



## blitznbobs (23 December 2018)

Faracat said:



			The vid from that old thread looks so tame now that I've seen Paddi's T-Rex and giant football one! 

Click to expand...

Well I for one think the T. rex costume is cruel - which nasty bully made the human wear it?


----------



## Meowy Catkin (23 December 2018)

LOL!


----------



## Goldenstar (23 December 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			Well I for one think the T. rex costume is cruel - which nasty bully made the human wear it?
		
Click to expand...

It would be the horse , itâ€™s legs are moving fast because itâ€™s laughing so much


----------



## Leo Walker (23 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			I was giggling earlier at the thought of Cortez and MP in a clique, brilliant,  I'd be happy to join them! ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

I am literally only posting in the hope that I am accused of being in a clique with Cortez and MP



Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			I'm just here to be accused of bullying.  I reckon if they accuse me and Aus, they've got a full house 

Click to expand...

Er, now come on! We all know who they like to scream bully at the most!  Just waiting for Applecart to pop up now. She loves this sort of thing!



The Xmas Furry said:



			No, no confusion at all, I'm happy with my surmising ta.
Mrs J, OP and you, all on the same IP address  

Click to expand...

Oh, I actually think I love you Furry. Please can I be in your clique?

Sorry I'm late to this thread. I had eleventy hundred PMs to go through all telling me the OP was a massive bully and was scaring away new posters


----------



## paddi22 (23 December 2018)

Yep, how and where do we join this clique?? what are the membership requirements?? If it's based on this thread then it seems to just be a basic understanding of prelim dressage judging. 

Is the cost of clique membership expensive and do we have to renew it each year? Do you pay extra to recieve private pms?


----------



## Snitch (23 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			Yep, how and where do we join this clique?? what are the membership requirements?? If it's based on this thread then it seems to just be a basic understanding of prelim dressage judging.

Is the cost of clique membership expensive and do we have to renew it each year? Do you pay extra to recieve private pms?
		
Click to expand...

Headscarf, paddi.  Itâ€™s all about the headscarf.  Itâ€™s FREE!!!


----------



## paddi22 (23 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			Headscarf, paddi.  Itâ€™s all about the headscarf.  Itâ€™s FREE!!!
		
Click to expand...

ha!! amazing!


----------



## Snitch (23 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			ha!! amazing!
		
Click to expand...

Youâ€™re in!!  Obviously.


----------



## paddi22 (23 December 2018)

Well if I didn't make the cut I'd be sitting here in tears. I can't believe everyone would gang up on me. You don't know the real truth. And why are you all in a clique instead of spending time with your horses? How cruel.... I know everyone i met has called me an asshole. but they are all wrong. I am totally amazing. And even though some of those people would be trained personality judges, or have written for them, I would still dismiss their opinions completely, in complete confidence that everything I think is correct.


----------



## Snitch (23 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			Well if I didn't make the cut I'd be sitting here in tears. I can't believe everyone would gang up on me. You don't know the real truth. And why are you all in a clique instead of spending time with your horses? How cruel.... I know everyone i met has called me an asshole. but they are all wrong. I am totally amazing. And even though some of those people would be trained personality judges, or have written for them, I would still dismiss their opinions completely, in complete confidence that everything I think is correct.
		
Click to expand...

Is that a flounce, paddi?


----------



## paddi22 (23 December 2018)

I think flouncing is cruel.  I'm tense about the whole thing, so i'm just doing a robotic dance away


----------



## Snitch (23 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			Is that a flounce, paddi?
		
Click to expand...

If so, I feel I want to beg you to stay.


----------



## paddi22 (23 December 2018)

I'm still laughing at your profile pic, thats amazing! when i read your posts i hear them in a weird voice that i imagine that character would have, its very strange!


----------



## Snitch (23 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			I'm still laughing at your profile pic, thats amazing! when i read your posts i hear them in a weird voice that i imagine that character would have, its very strange!
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
What colour scarf do you want?  I can make this happen!


----------



## paddi22 (23 December 2018)

ehh im currently sitting here in this get up


----------



## Snitch (23 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			ehh im currently sitting here in this get up
	View attachment 28366

Click to expand...

Thatâ€™ll work!


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## paddi22 (23 December 2018)

i swaddle myself to stop reaching for the wine bottle


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## Snitch (23 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			i swaddle myself to stop reaching for the wine bottle
		
Click to expand...

Are you a nun?


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## JFTDWS (23 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			Are you a nun?
		
Click to expand...

A Blue one?


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## Leo Walker (23 December 2018)

Am I in? am I? am I? am I???


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## Snitch (23 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			ehh im currently sitting here in this get up
	View attachment 28366

Click to expand...

If youâ€™re not a nun, then you sit on a throne of lies, Paddi.


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## paddi22 (23 December 2018)

ex nun.. they kicked me out for misbehaviour during the recent pope visit to ireland


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## Snitch (23 December 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			Am I in, am I, am I, am I???
		
Click to expand...

Lol, lol, lol yes, with a headscarf like that you get a prize!

Skulks off...... 

who is in charge of prizes?!


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## blitznbobs (23 December 2018)

Well I rode my horse in the field for the first time with a friend today - it was a bit damp




__ https://www.facebook.com/322739367839522/posts/1907308856049224


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## blitznbobs (23 December 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			Well I rode my horse in the field for the first time with a friend today - it was a bit damp




__ https://www.facebook.com/322739367839522/posts/1907308856049224



Click to expand...

Mines the bay - honest gov


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## Leo Walker (23 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			Lol, lol, lol yes, with a headscarf like that you get a prize!

Skulks off......

who is in charge of prizes?!
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure its ester. She does badges. Aaaaand I need a badge for being in the top ten thingy. I dont know how I got there or what the points are for but I'll be needing my badge now please!


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## Roasted Chestnuts (23 December 2018)

So if we all thought the OP was being silly then why not just leave the post to die? Why keep it going for nearly 770 posts?? 

This is what people mean when they say that this forum bullies and is cliquey, if you arenâ€™t getting through to people then why not just put your itchy fingers away and let the thread fall to the bottom of the pile and disappear?? 

What a complete waste of 30mins of my night and I didnâ€™t even read it all


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## Goldenstar (23 December 2018)

Whispers can I join the clique ........please ......I have a head scarf .


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## Meowy Catkin (23 December 2018)

From what I understand the requirements are to 1, be a member of HHO and 2, to have a head scarf. So I think you're in GS.


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## paddi22 (23 December 2018)

Festive Beastie1 said:



			So if we all thought the OP was being silly then why not just leave the post to die? Why keep it going for nearly 770 posts??

This is what people mean when they say that this forum bullies and is cliquey, if you arenâ€™t getting through to people then why not just put your itchy fingers away and let the thread fall to the bottom of the pile and disappear??

What a complete waste of 30mins of my night and I didnâ€™t even read it all 

Click to expand...

-because at a base level it's an interesting discussion about the theory of prelim dressage, that broadened into a more expansive debate that wasn't even about the Ops horse.
-because theres no forum police and threads are fluid and can adapt to different thought flows
- because no-one makes anyone read a thread, that's their own choice
- because it's not anyone's job to get through to anyone else. people are entitled to think whatever they want

I would never post anything with the intention of getting anyone to change their mind about what they think. thats not the point of a forum. it;s about just typing out what's in your brain, and thats only relative to your experience at that point in time. then you reading what's in other people's brains, learn some stuff, consider other stuff and disregard  mad stuff  and then log off and go back to mucking out.


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## Bernster (23 December 2018)

To be fair the last 3 pages at least seem have been on the topic of headscarves?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (23 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			-because at a base level it's an interesting discussion about the theory of prelim dressage, that broadened into a more expansive debate that wasn't even about the Ops horse.
-because theres no forum police and threads are fluid and can adapt to different thought flows
- because no-one makes anyone read a thread, that's their own choice
- because it's not anyone's job to get through to anyone else. people are entitled to think whatever they want
		
Click to expand...

And to be quite frankly horrid to each other but dress it up nicely so itâ€™s not exactly bullying. Means everyone has sleep at night yes. Excellent tally ho then

Wonderful example of the â€˜fluidityâ€™ of the human mob behaviour. Fascinating


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## paddi22 (24 December 2018)

What is with the mob stuff? I genuinely don't get it.  This thread was an example of someone who didn't understand the basic concept of how prelim tests are marked. Which is fine, people often don't know what they don't know. I don't see how posters who are judges, judge writers and dressage riders all stating similar, very basic facts constitutes a mob?


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## Leo Walker (24 December 2018)

And as is so wonderful on this forum, when it got really nasty a concerted effort was made to divert the thread into a light hearted fun thread about head scarves. Fun for everyone, no?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (24 December 2018)

i actually despair at your post really as you seem really knowledgable and intelligent, the thread is 770 posts long, the OP did themself no favours Iâ€™ll say, defensive is being mild however people started playing it, instead of just leaving it alone and now itâ€™s onto headscarves and irrelevant chat, fair enough fluidity and all that, but really when the toys went out the pram the best thing would have been for the thread to die, no go on the way it did. 

Serves no purpose I can see


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## paddi22 (24 December 2018)

Festive Beastie1 said:



			i actually despair at your post really as you seem really knowledgable and intelligent, the thread is 770 posts long, the OP did themself no favours Iâ€™ll say, defensive is being mild however people started playing it, instead of just leaving it alone and now itâ€™s onto headscarves and irrelevant chat, fair enough fluidity and all that, but really when the toys went out the pram the best thing would have been for the thread to die, no go on the way it did.

Serves no purpose I can see
		
Click to expand...


the op was proven to be a troll, and wasted peoples time and energy in replying to them. In the longer term they damage the forum because people will think twice about replying to posters in future  (i know I will). I feel so stupid for posting a pic of my horse and explaining the similar issues I had. What a waste of my time. And then the Op purposefully twisted peoples posts to wind them up. I think the best way to end this thread is just with a bit of a laugh.


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## YorksG (24 December 2018)

Festive Beastie1 said:



			i actually despair at your post really as you seem really knowledgable and intelligent, the thread is 770 posts long, the OP did themself no favours Iâ€™ll say, defensive is being mild however people started playing it, instead of just leaving it alone and now itâ€™s onto headscarves and irrelevant chat, fair enough fluidity and all that, but really when the toys went out the pram the best thing would have been for the thread to die, no go on the way it did.

Serves no purpose I can see
		
Click to expand...

And yet you continue to post......


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## Leo Walker (24 December 2018)

but you arent leaving it alone are you? Your here chastising everyone that you didnt like the way it went and offering unsolictied advice on how to conduct yourself on a forum. Ironic really.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (24 December 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			but you arent leaving it alone are you? Your here chastising everyone that you didnt like the way it went and offering unsolictied advice on how to conduct yourself on a forum. Ironic really.
		
Click to expand...

Oh really ironic from whose point of view??

As has been stated no forum police, so my point is valid is it not?? I donâ€™t agree with all this Carry on, you however LW seem to thrive on it, any bit of drama you are salivating over  carry on though as your little games provide quite a bit of amusement. 

I just donâ€™t like this sort of thing, Iâ€™m perfectly at liberty to say I donâ€™t.


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

Faracat said:



			From what I understand the requirements are to 1, be a member of HHO and 2, to have a head scarf. So I think you're in GS. 

Click to expand...

Magic , I have never been in a clique before .


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## paddi22 (24 December 2018)




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## KittenInTheTree (24 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			OK, now the trolls are suggesting that, not only do we keep the horse stationary during pooing, for ease of collection, now we drink them too?!
		
Click to expand...

Hey, people who bother poo picking after they've used the arena, and so forth, are welcome to keep riding at whatever pace they want to while their horse does its business. They aren't inconveniencing anyone. Personally, I'm concerned that it's uncomfortable for the animal to be made to keep moving if it has opted to stop, so I always prefer to let mine halt. Each to their own. I'll continue to hate those who leave a mess for others to clean up.

Still, it's nice to know what you really think of me, JFTD!


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## Leo Walker (24 December 2018)

Festive Beastie1 said:



			Oh really ironic from whose point of view??

As has been stated no forum police, so my point is valid is it not?? I donâ€™t agree with all this Carry on, you however LW seem to thrive on it, any bit of drama you are salivating over  carry on though as your little games provide quite a bit of amusement.

I just donâ€™t like this sort of thing, Iâ€™m perfectly at liberty to say I donâ€™t.
		
Click to expand...

Mine obviously and I am highly amused ðŸ™ˆðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ I'm amazed you cant see the irony in commenting on a post to moan about people commenting on a post. Its brilliant!


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## Auslander (24 December 2018)

Festive Beastie1 said:



			So if we all thought the OP was being silly then why not just leave the post to die? Why keep it going for nearly 770 posts??

This is what people mean when they say that this forum bullies and is cliquey, if you arenâ€™t getting through to people then why not just put your itchy fingers away and let the thread fall to the bottom of the pile and disappear??

What a complete waste of 30mins of my night and I didnâ€™t even read it all 

Click to expand...

AAAAND - the thread is complete. I was wondering when someone was going to come along and add the obligatory "Grow up all of you" post


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## blitznbobs (24 December 2018)

Well I think this thread is discriminating against people who donâ€™t have headscarves... unless... would a tea towel suffice?


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## Pearlsasinger (24 December 2018)

Festive Beastie1 said:



			So if we all thought the OP was being silly then why not just leave the post to die? Why keep it going for nearly 770 posts??

This is what people mean when they say that this forum bullies and is cliquey, if you arenâ€™t getting through to people then why not just put your itchy fingers away and let the thread fall to the bottom of the pile and disappear??

What a complete waste of 30mins of my night and I didnâ€™t even read it all 

Click to expand...


And yet you felt moved to reply?  What a waste of 2 minutes! (depending on how fast you think/type)


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## Snitch (24 December 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			Well I think this thread is discriminating against people who donâ€™t have headscarves... unless... would a tea towel suffice?
		
Click to expand...

Well tea towels work in the Nativity plays, and since itâ€™s Christmas, Iâ€™d say yes!


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## ester (24 December 2018)

I suspect these sort of threads read differently to those who only see them after the troll has left than to those who tried to be helpful to said troll and were met with rudeness and snide remarks for their trouble.


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## milliepops (24 December 2018)

I'm sure that's part of it, ester.


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## JFTDWS (24 December 2018)

KittenInTheTree said:



			Hey, people who bother poo picking after they've used the arena, and so forth, are welcome to keep riding at whatever pace they want to while their horse does its business. They aren't inconveniencing anyone. Personally, I'm concerned that it's uncomfortable for the animal to be made to keep moving if it has opted to stop, so I always prefer to let mine halt. Each to their own. I'll continue to hate those who leave a mess for others to clean up.

Still, it's nice to know what you really think of me, JFTD! 

Click to expand...

I donâ€™t think anything of you - I donâ€™t know you. 

 I was surprised by the apparent vitriol of that post, and the assumption that people who encourage their horses to keep moving never bother to pick up after their horses...  Iâ€™m more worried about rude liveries who donâ€™t care about the arena surface than people who encourage their horse not to stop dead whenever they feel like it...

You may also have missed the troll posting in a similar vein - but if you chose to think that post was directed against you... fine.


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## JFTDWS (24 December 2018)

Auslander said:



			AAAAND - the thread is complete. I was wondering when someone was going to come along and add the obligatory "Grow up all of you" post
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s Christmas, time of the inner child. Nobody is growing up for another 48 hours!


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## Red-1 (24 December 2018)

Gosh, I have been away from this thread for a long time, seems it has taken a sinister turn with the requirement of a head scarf. I am scared of head scarves. Like something the Queen wears.






I feel excluded from the clique. Although, I now think that Paddi and I would get along OK if we ever met in real life. #newstalker


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## tallyho! (24 December 2018)

playtime over people.... the grinch is here!!!


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

Nah , playtimes not going to be over anytime soon .


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## tallyho! (24 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			Nah , playtimes not going to be over anytime soon .
		
Click to expand...

Ohhhhhh yess it iiii-iiiisssss!!!


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## JFTDWS (24 December 2018)

tipsytinsel said:



			Ohhhhhh yess it iiii-iiiisssss!!!



Click to expand...

OH NO IT ISNâ€™T!!!


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## Melodra (24 December 2018)

tipsytinsel said:



			Ohhhhhh yess it iiii-iiiisssss!!!



Click to expand...


Dear me. Still at it? Just looked back and you guys were posting all night on Saturday. Pretty sad tbh, would suggest getting a social life. 

So, the same IP addresses eh? Now you have just proven yourself to me as a liar as we both know youâ€™ve made that up. What do you get out of that exactly? Trying to fit in with online friends?

a) We could not have the same IP address as we are not the same user as well you know 

b) Only the forum admin has access to IP information so....you are lying about being able to access that data in the first place or you are an admin/moderator which leads me to the following...

c) Aside from the fact the information you have given about my IP address is totally incorrect...if you are a moderator then you have just breached the General Data Protection Regulation. An IP address is personal data and therefore as forum moderator/admin it is illegal for you to divulge information, false or otherwise relating to it.

So, while weâ€™ve established that youâ€™ve lied about the same IP address, which are you?

- A liar (but member of the general public) claiming to have access to my IP data which you donâ€™t. 

- A moderator who has just breached the GDPR?


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## tallyho! (24 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			OH NO IT ISNâ€™T!!!
		
Click to expand...



THERE it is !! Right above!!!


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## Leo Walker (24 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Dear me. Still at it? Just looked back and you guys were posting all night on Saturday. Pretty sad tbh, would suggest getting a social life.

So, the same IP addresses eh? Now you have just proven yourself to me as a liar as we both know youâ€™ve made that up. What do you get out of that exactly? Trying to fit in with online friends?

a) We could not have the same IP address as we are not the same user as well you know

b) Only the forum admin has access to IP information so....you are lying about being able to access that data in the first place or you are an admin/moderator which leads me to the following...

c) Aside from the fact the information you have given about my IP address is totally incorrect...if you are a moderator then you have just breached the General Data Protection Regulation. An IP address is personal data and therefore as forum moderator/admin it is illegal for you to divulge information, false or otherwise relating to it.

So, while weâ€™ve established that youâ€™ve lied about the same IP address, which are you?

- A liar (but member of the general public) claiming to have access to my IP data which you donâ€™t.

- A moderator who has just breached the GDPR?
		
Click to expand...

Google it again


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## ester (24 December 2018)




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## tallyho! (24 December 2018)

The thread that keeps on giving... 

...


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## Rumtytum (24 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			Magic , I have never been in a clique before .
		
Click to expand...

I want to be in clique too please. Please note my avatar headscarf AND moustache


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## Red-1 (24 December 2018)

Done it!!!!


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## Melodra (24 December 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			Google it again 

Click to expand...


I donâ€™t need to love, itâ€™s the area I work in. 

Some very fast responses again. Ester, you must spend your life here. Lol. 

So TT, which are you?


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## Snitch (24 December 2018)

Rumtytum said:



			I want to be in clique too please. Please note my avatar headscarf AND moustache
		
Click to expand...

Your moustache is more fabulous than mine!


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## Melodra (24 December 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			Google it again 

Click to expand...


I donâ€™t need to love, itâ€™s the area I work in. I suggest you google IP and the GDPR for yourself. 

Some very fast responses again. Ester, you must spend your life here. Lol. 

So TT, which are you?


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## tallyho! (24 December 2018)

which am I wot? 

For a start I didnâ€™t look up your IP address... I commented on a comment, from another comment that was a comment that wasnâ€™t anything about you. 

The area you work in eh? Donâ€™t do espionage whatever you do!


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## ester (24 December 2018)

Nope as profile states good at multitasking. 

Though Iâ€™ve also met an awful lot more real life friends through here than I ever did with salsa ðŸ’ƒ and it meant I had social group in situ when I moved across the country, seems like a win win to me when as a result I have no need to be trolling any forums.


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## Rumtytum (24 December 2018)

Snitch said:



			Your moustache is more fabulous than mine!
		
Click to expand...

Yours has more style! I saw it and thought wow! this is whatâ€™s been missing from my life


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

Deleted


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## Snitch (24 December 2018)

Rumtytum said:



			Yours has more style! I saw it and thought wow! this is whatâ€™s been missing from my life 

Click to expand...

Why thank you, Rumtytum!  

***Takes a bow**** Smug as anything....  you've honestly made my Christmas, which was nearly stolen by a couple of trolls; but restored now, thanks xxxxx


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## Snitch (24 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Some very fast responses again. Ester, you must spend your life here. Lol.
		
Click to expand...

What is your obsession with our Ester?  It's unhealthy.


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			I donâ€™t need to love, itâ€™s the area I work in.

Some very fast responses again. Ester, you must spend your life here. Lol.

So TT, which are you?
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s called multitasking lots of us are very very good at it .
Having a bit of bother with my iPad , itâ€™s not very happy perhaps itâ€™s been on the port and lemon .
Atm I am doing cooking prep for tomorrow , filling log baskets , airing warming bedrooms wrapping presents and tidying up and playing on here .
MrGS is mending a chair , it been broken for years not sure whatâ€™s that is about itâ€™s not exactly a priority .


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## ester (24 December 2018)

Itâ€™s keeping him quiet and out the way


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

ester said:



			Itâ€™s keeping him quiet and out the way 

Click to expand...

Fair  point except heâ€™s not exactly out of the way .
He should be out hunting on H but he ( MrGS not H )has a tummy bug so H is out having a day with my fit young friend , so I am being nice but he sure like to spread himself out when heâ€™s doing a job .


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## ester (24 December 2018)

Lol, Maybe he needs a bigger shed


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## blitznbobs (24 December 2018)

I have 4 horses, two kids two dogs and a farm to run and 12 for Christmas lunchof course I donâ€™t have a social life - Iâ€™m a grown up


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## Caol Ila (24 December 2018)

What the......

I meant to leave for the barn 40 minutes ago but this thread kept going... and going...


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

Five horses , two cats three dogs and ......... a retired husband ðŸ˜¦ I do have a social life mainly non horse based  itâ€™s one of the reason I enjoy HHO so much .
I am out and about less in a horse sense since MrGS retired .
I also have two completely barking parents whose house I manage and two inlaws in their nineties .


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

ester said:



			Lol, Maybe he needs a bigger shed 

Click to expand...

He has a shed and a man attic above the stables but itâ€™s much more fun  to do carpentry in the dining room and kitchen .


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

Caol Ila said:



			What the......

I meant to leave for the barn 40 minutes ago but this thread kept going... and going...
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s likely we will still be about when you get back .


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## Snitch (24 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			He has a shed and a man attic above the stables but itâ€™s much more fun to carpentary in the dining room and kitchen .
		
Click to expand...

Of course it is!


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## ester (24 December 2018)

Sometimes I think they like to be seen to be doing something (and totally unnecessary)


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

True, thereâ€™s a lot of glue and clamps he is having fun .


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## PapaverFollis (24 December 2018)

I have no social life, can't multitask for shit and spend most of my day on here or Facebook. What of it?

ðŸ˜‚


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			I have no social life, can't multitask for shit and spend most of my day on here or Facebook. What of it?

ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

We could run a course on here multitasking for forum users .
Modules on ...
Concealment  ie concealing iPad when your supposed to be doing paperwork , cooking and various other tasks .
The use of HHO as a form of prevarication there will no shortage of lecturers for that one .
Trolls ,their life and times
Cliques and how to join them .
Headscarves and how to care for them and how to induce domestic pets to wear  them .
Memorable threads from history , for that module I recommend Papa Fritas epic Roll up Roll up thread that was hilarious .
Any further thoughts on modules would be appreciated .


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## ester (24 December 2018)

Sounds like a set of hogwarts textbooks ðŸ˜‚


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## Rumtytum (24 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			We could run a course on here multitasking for forum users .
Modules on ...
Concealment  ie concealing iPad when your supposed to be doing paperwork , cooking and various other tasks .
The use of HHO as a form of prevarication there will no shortage of lecturers for that one .
Trolls ,their life and times
Cliques and how to join them .
Headscarves and how to care for them and how to induce domestic pets to wear  them .
Memorable threads from history , for that module I recommend Papa Fritas epic Roll up Roll up thread that was hilarious .
Any further thoughts on modules would be appreciated .
		
Click to expand...

Immac vs moustache: would you dare to go â€˜au naturelâ€™


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## tallyho! (24 December 2018)

https://goo.gl/images/5ph2Aq


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## tallyho! (24 December 2018)

Why donâ€™t my links work? Iâ€™m truly uphauled by the fact I have no idea how to forum...


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## Leo Walker (24 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			I donâ€™t need to love, itâ€™s the area I work in. I suggest you google IP and the GDPR for yourself.

Some very fast responses again. Ester, you must spend your life here. Lol.

So TT, which are you?
		
Click to expand...

You are an IT expert but you cant use the quote function on a forum even when Ester kindly did a step by step explanation? Were you the IT expert sitting with Feastive Beastie maybe? This is all so very brilliant! I am dying laughing here! ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## tallyho! (24 December 2018)




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## ester (24 December 2018)

hurrah!


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

If this works I will eat my iPad


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 December 2018)

Get eating GS! ðŸ˜œðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

Holy cow  !!!!!!!

Crunch crunch choke  choke 
Johnny Depp is busy keepingbthe clean tea towels warm .


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

OMG ,I can post photos brace yourselves I like new games .


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## ester (24 December 2018)

And supervising...


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## Tiddlypom (24 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			OMG ,I can post photos brace yourselves I like new games .
		
Click to expand...

Woo hoo, GS can post pics! 
I love your towel warmer .


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

I knew it was too good to true I canâ€™t do it again .


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

Green is a traditional  colour to wear at Christmas ,other fabrics
	
 are available


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

Well it sort of worked


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## Red-1 (24 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			If this works I will eat my iPad 
	View attachment 28393

Click to expand...

You just need to draw on a headscarf (and optional moustache) and that could be your new forum photo!


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## blitznbobs (24 December 2018)

These two want to join the clique ...



The other two thru a fit at the thought of the head scarf


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## Snitch (24 December 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			These two want to join the clique ...
View attachment 28400
View attachment 28398

Click to expand...

Fabulous!


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## ester (24 December 2018)

Brilliant blitz!


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## Tiddlypom (24 December 2018)

Haha, bnb. And one of mine joined in too, though she had to make do with a towel...


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## DabDab (24 December 2018)

Maybe a festive westie member?


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## JFTDWS (24 December 2018)

DabDab said:



			Maybe a festive westie member?
View attachment 28403

Click to expand...

On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog, after all!


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## DabDab (24 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog, after all!
		
Click to expand...

First Cortez was rude about my arse and now you're calling me a dog ðŸ˜­


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## JFTDWS (24 December 2018)

DabDab said:



			First Cortez was rude about my arse and now you're calling me a dog ðŸ˜­
		
Click to expand...

Are we bullying you?  In our tea towel wearing clique...

(That said, it is a nice dog to be accused of being)


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## DabDab (24 December 2018)

Look, cool owl tattoo (no link to rest of thread, but thought this thread was odd enough to just randomly share)


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## JFTDWS (24 December 2018)

Is it your tattoo, or is it really that random?


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## DabDab (24 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Are we bullying you?  In our tea towel wearing clique...

(That said, it is a nice dog to be accused of being)
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure....is it bullying if it's all true?????


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## DabDab (24 December 2018)

Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:



			Is it your tattoo, or is it really that random?
		
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No, pintrest just decided that I might appreciate it


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## DabDab (24 December 2018)

DabDab said:



			No, pintrest just decided that I might appreciate it
		
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Along with this: https://pin.it/m4tv6aoc5hyfjj


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## JFTDWS (24 December 2018)

DabDab said:



			Along with this: https://pin.it/m4tv6aoc5hyfjj

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I've seen that before (my pinterest knows me well!), and I love it.  But they're feral, not wild, for heaven's sake!


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## DabDab (24 December 2018)

Yes, very true, and I have three of those right here  (feral horses that is).

I'm currently cruising pintrest for ideas on large, freestanding kitchen larders. I'm not digging mine really anymore so want to build a new one but I'm a bit lacking on inspiration. GS's cat in the drawer made me think of it (so there is a link in there somewhere).


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## Auslander (24 December 2018)

Melodra said:



			Dear me. Still at it? Just looked back and you guys were posting all night on Saturday. Pretty sad tbh, would suggest getting a social life.

So, the same IP addresses eh? Now you have just proven yourself to me as a liar as we both know youâ€™ve made that up. What do you get out of that exactly? Trying to fit in with online friends?

a) We could not have the same IP address as we are not the same user as well you know

b) Only the forum admin has access to IP information so....you are lying about being able to access that data in the first place or you are an admin/moderator which leads me to the following...

c) Aside from the fact the information you have given about my IP address is totally incorrect...if you are a moderator then you have just breached the General Data Protection Regulation. An IP address is personal data and therefore as forum moderator/admin it is illegal for you to divulge information, false or otherwise relating to it.

So, while weâ€™ve established that youâ€™ve lied about the same IP address, which are you?

- A liar (but member of the general public) claiming to have access to my IP data which you donâ€™t.

- A moderator who has just breached the GDPR?
		
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Oh For Gods Sake - wind your neck in! It's Christmas Eve - sod off and enjoy your fabulous social life, while the rest of us have a bit of fun with this thread, which has moved on since it was all about you, and is now just a bit of fun


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## JFTDWS (24 December 2018)

DabDab said:



			Yes, very true, and I have three of those right here  (feral horses that is).

I'm currently cruising pintrest for ideas on large, freestanding kitchen larders. I'm not digging mine really anymore so want to build a new one but I'm a bit lacking on inspiration. GS's cat in the drawer made me think of it (so there is a link in there somewhere).
		
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I need to go out and run an errand.  I'm lazy and it's cold outside...  Meh.


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## tallyho! (24 December 2018)

Anyway merry Christmas everyone, trolls included.

To be fair... it donâ€™t take a minute to be nice but clearly.. many more to be naughty.

Happy Christmas everyone. Iâ€™ve had far too much now to multitask successfully so see you on the other side! X


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## Snitch (24 December 2018)

tipsytinsel said:



			Anyway merry Christmas everyone, trolls included.

To be fair... it donâ€™t take a minute to be nice but clearly.. many more to be naughty.

Happy Christmas everyone. Iâ€™ve had far too much now to multitask successfully so see you on the other side! X
		
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Merry Christmas! ðŸ‘


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## Caol Ila (24 December 2018)

Yup.  Still going.

If I put a tea towel on the house plants, does it count?


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## Snitch (24 December 2018)

Caol Ila said:



			Yup.  Still going.

If I put a tea towel on the house plants, does it count?
		
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Yep.


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## Red-1 (24 December 2018)

Caol Ila said:



			Yup.  Still going.

If I put a tea towel on the house plants, does it count?
		
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Only if you take photos!


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## blitznbobs (24 December 2018)

Caol Ila said:



			Yup.  Still going.

If I put a tea towel on the house plants, does it count?
		
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If so my hob is also a member ... or are we discriminating against inanimate objects?


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## Cortez (24 December 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			If so my hob is also a member ... or are we discriminating against inanimate objects?
View attachment 28411

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Yes: must be breathing.


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## blitznbobs (24 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			Yes: must be breathing.
		
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Harsh ... but fair


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## Cortez (24 December 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			Harsh ... but fair
		
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That's me!


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## ester (24 December 2018)

Def breathing


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## Caol Ila (24 December 2018)

Some chilli plants and cape sundews.  The sundews are sort of like a real pet.  They eat bugs and require special water.


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## Cortez (24 December 2018)

Cavies clique! Plants transpire, but could be allowed at a pinch...


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## ester (24 December 2018)

Which would actually work rather well with my real name ðŸ˜‚
I declined to get the snake involved in the group photo shoot, the pigs might eat him.


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## Cortez (24 December 2018)

ester said:



			Which would actually work rather well with my real name ðŸ˜‚
I declined to get the snake involved in the group photo shoot, the pigs might eat him. 

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Or vice versa?


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)




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## ester (24 December 2018)

Nope heâ€™s 1) very small and 2) on hunger strike 
*has a good nose at GSâ€™s kitchen


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

Thereâ€™s better one


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## Tiddlypom (24 December 2018)

I think that my ned and GS's lab share the same opinion of having their heads adorned with towels.


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

Yeh, he said it was not his colour.
Well that last pic sort of worked .
Havenâ€™t completely sorted this yet


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

Prepared to be bored having anyother go


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## ester (24 December 2018)

Thereâ€™s a thumbnail/full pic button
Sometimes they are too big still too but you seem to be doing ok!


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## Red-1 (24 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			Prepared to be bored having anyother go
		
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You can go back and "edit" then pick full whatnot instead of thumbnail.


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

Some seasonal shots from last year 
Canâ€™t work why it says some i ages are too big and some are ok .


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			You can go back and "edit" then pick full whatnot instead of thumbnail.
		
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Thank you


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## Sam_J (24 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			Thereâ€™s better one
		
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Anyone else got kitchen envy?!


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## milliepops (24 December 2018)

Sam_J said:



			Anyone else got kitchen envy?!
		
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Yep! I'm definitely not posting a picture of mine ðŸ˜‚


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## milliepops (24 December 2018)

Though it might make other people feel better


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## ycbm (24 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



View attachment 28417

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Strongbow and Cockburns on the condiment and oil tray  'just for cooking, honest' ðŸ˜ ?


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

Why d


ycbm said:



			Strongbow and Cockburns on the condiment and oil tray  'just for cooking, honest' ðŸ˜ ?
		
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All laid out ready for the onslaught tomorrow.
Just about to put the turkey in


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## JFTDWS (24 December 2018)

Woof


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2018)

Itâ€™s ready for the Aga


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## paddi22 (24 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			Itâ€™s ready for the Aga
		
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I looked at that pic and thought you'd put a headscarf on your turkey!


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## rara007 (24 December 2018)

Phew, I think I'm caught up. Is there a prize for that for good reading?


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## ester (24 December 2018)

Err theyâ€™ll be a test before any prizes obv ðŸ™„


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## rara007 (24 December 2018)

ester said:



			Err theyâ€™ll be a test before any prizes obv ðŸ™„
		
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A spelling one too?


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## Goldenstar (25 December 2018)

rara007 said:



			A spelling one too?
		
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OMG I hope not


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## DabDab (25 December 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			OMG I hope not
		
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Me too.
Why not maths?


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## tallyho! (25 December 2018)

rara007 said:



			A spelling one too?
		
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HHO spelling of course...

E.g. spell appalled...... uphauled
ManÃ¨ge...... mÃ©nage

Etc check the spelling thread for appropriate revision.

(Will try find it for you for reference - Iâ€™m kind like that)


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## tallyho! (25 December 2018)

.... oh dear I canâ€™t seem to find it... it is years old tho...


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