# I don't think some people can add up...



## Paddydou (17 February 2011)

A salary of £14,400 is the minimum a single person needs for an acceptable standard of living, according to research by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation (JRF). 

That includes not only basics like food and housing, but also the essentials needed to "participate fully in society", the charity says. 

That means spending on mobile phones, internet access and socialising is included. 

It puts earners above the official government poverty threshold and is also significantly higher than the amount you would expect to earn on the minimum wage (£5.80 an hour). 

Mmmm Ok - so lets base this on a salary of £19k per year. Well above what they say is enough so we have lots of lea way you would think...

If you earn £19k pa you will take home £1235 per month. 

In my area;
Rent for a very small house or flat £750pm (this is very very cheap and based on renting from the local council - usual rent for something a little nicer and you are looking at over £1k pm, for a 3 bed semi think around £1500pm as average but you can be looking to pay anything up to £2k pm to rent privately)
Council Tax for said small property £100pm
Electric to heat and power said small property £150
Food/ cleaning goods for the month £150 (thats just under £35 per week)

That leaves you £85 for the rest of the month to power a car if you need one to get to work or catch the bus, to purchase clothes so you do not look like Hans Christian Andersons Emperor, pay emergency bills such as the oven breaking or fridge giving up the ghost, pay for your "active social life" ho hum would love to know what the JR foundation are doing in their spare time! I haven't included their version of essentials such as mobile phones nor even a landline or TV licence... Buggar I also forgot water rates thats pretty essential so that takes you down to £60 per month... 

Come on when will our "offical reporters" get a grip and live in the real world?


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## BBH (17 February 2011)

Well I certainly couldn't live off that and am very glad I don't have to do so. 

Surely someone on a small income like that can't afford to rent on their own and pay bills alone. I can't see how it could be done unless you found the tiniest bedsit on some sink estate somewhere.

They prob really mean existence level as opposed to really enjoying a normal lifestyle.


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## Tr0uble (17 February 2011)

A lot of people on that wage won't be trying to live alone though - whether living with a partner, or sharinged accomodation/lodgers etc will bring those costs down to potentially 50%


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## jodie3 (17 February 2011)

£65 a week (not including my rent or council tax) is what the government say I need as a single person - I'm on ESA which has replaced incapacity benefit.  

I'm always amazed at the huge amounts some people manage to claim, I know if you have children you are entitled to alot more but even so some claimants are getting so much they have no incentive to find a job.


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## combat_claire (17 February 2011)

This is how the JRF break the figure down:

Food 44.34
Alcohol 4.69
Clothing 7.73
Water rates 4.93
Council Tax 13.93
Household Insurances 1.90
Gas, electricity, etc 9.78
Other housing costs 2.44
Household goods 10.35
Household services4.42
Childcare 0.00
Personal goods and services 8.95
Travel costs and motoring 19.72
Social and cultural activities 42.16
Rent 52.62
Mortgage 0.00

Their tool classes me as my salary being enough for a minimum standard of living. Perhaps I should leave the results lying around on my desk and hope my boss takes pity on me...


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## lilaclomax (17 February 2011)

It works out if you share a property with someone, either as a partner or a house share... I can see my daughters living in a shared agreement when they are older, if only to afford transport to work.
On another note, I have seen first hand the living conditions in other countries and to live their lives 'fully' there, you are talking basic essentials like water, shade, food and medical supplies... a far cry from here.

I am just glad that when I was on minimum wage it meant much more than it does now


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## BBH (17 February 2011)

combat_claire said:



			This is how the JRF break the figure down:

Food 44.34
Alcohol 4.69
Clothing 7.73
Water rates 4.93
Council Tax 13.93
Household Insurances 1.90
Gas, electricity, etc 9.78
Other housing costs 2.44
Household goods 10.35
Household services4.42
Childcare 0.00
Personal goods and services 8.95
Travel costs and motoring 19.72
Social and cultural activities 42.16
Rent 52.62
Mortgage 0.00

Their tool classes me as my salary being enough for a minimum standard of living. Perhaps I should leave the results lying around on my desk and hope my boss takes pity on me...
		
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Where can you live where council tax is so low ? I have a BTL Band A prop and its still £98 a month. Those figures are so underestimated and you'd be so stressed trying to micro manage such a tiny budget.


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## siennamum (17 February 2011)

I've thought for some time that you would struggle to survive on a salary much below £25k, with the real cost of living.

My monthly expenses (for family of 3) out of interest are:

Rent/mortgage £700
Insurance £25
Water £25
Gas £35
Elec £75
Council Tax £125 (with single person allowance)
Car £35 (ins) & £25 (tax & MOT)
Petrol £200
School bus £120
Food £200
TV/Internet/Mobile £100

That's in excess of £1,650 per month, it's a modest budget, we certainly don't live extravagantly. There is no allowance for clothes, christmas, haircuts, dentist, car repairs, or any extra expense like holidays. 

I simply don't know how many people are coping - we struggle, thank god the horses pay for themselves.


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## combat_claire (17 February 2011)

BBH said:



			Where can you live where council tax is so low ? I have a BTL Band A prop and its still £98 a month. Those figures are so underestimated and you'd be so stressed trying to micro manage such a tiny budget.
		
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Presumably they have taken a single person discount into account. There is a different set of figures for couples and families on their website: You can play about with their figures and assess where your income and expenditure puts you on the poverty scale. 

http://www.minimumincome.org.uk/


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## FairyLights (17 February 2011)

My husband earns £20,000 a year, sometimes a bit less sometimes a bit more depending on overtime,his average takehome pay is £15,000 a year. He is a lorry driver. We get by because we dont have a mortgage [we own our place outright] and I keep my horses at home. We dont go out or have holidays. My eldest son lives at home and contributes to to  housekeeping ie he pays 1/3 of utilitys and his food costs. my other son pays for the horse food for me,which is really good of him. I do lots of home cooking and baking and such. my landrover is 20 years old and DH's car is old too, fortunately my youngest son is a car mechanic. We get by, but its not easy. I just dont know how young people manage nowadays,mortgage and rental costs are so high.


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## Paddydou (17 February 2011)

I am band A and have the single person discount and its £98 a month as well! No I do not live in London! 

The figures quoted are an absolute joke. 

There is going to be a breaking point soon. In order for people to buy things they need the money, in order for companies to sell products they need people to buy them, in order to pay peoples wages companies need to sell sell sell... This is why I hate Labour. They spend spend spend until there is nothing left then we vote in the conservatives they just about get round to paying it all off and life starts to get good then we get fed up with them and vote Labour back in who spend spend spend and the cycle starts all over again. 

We have a process of devolution going on here.


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## BBH (18 February 2011)

I think people are getting by on the back of credit cards, whereas before cc's were emergency monies more and more people are putting essentials like petrol and food on them. This is grand until the bubble bursts and the cc's get maxed out, minimum repayments can't be met and more n more people spiral into debt.


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## Tiny Fluffy Coblet (18 February 2011)

I live off 12,000 a year (taken home) so thats a grand a month.

sooo.....

£55 pcm put aside so I can afford car insurance/tax/MOT yearly
£50 pcm for food
£50pcm for petrol (going up unfortunately )
£10 a month into pension because if I don't start now I will never retire as the chances of there being a state pension when I get to 70 are slim to nil.

At the moment in a shared house which is gross at £400 pcm including bills. 

IF I can get a flat then the options are:
£170 pcm for bills (inc. internet and council tax)
Up to £450 pcm for rent (tiny bedsit and I'll be lucky to get that)

This leaves me with bugger all for luxuries like having 1/2 drinks with mates once a month. 

Oh and the chances of me getting a property through the council to rent are slim to nil because I am working hard not popping out sprogs and on benefits. The likelihood of me getting a shared ownership mortgage are slim to nil as I earn under 18,000 a year even though £300pcm in mortgage and £100 pcm in rent would cost less than most rent for bedsits - probably looking at £500 a month MINUMUM for a pokey little grotty bedsit. 

Sooo...what am I supposed to do? carry on living in a minging house share with people who won't wash up, steal food and drive me crazy? yay that is pretty much the only option atm. 

Bitter? me? never.


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## Paddydou (18 February 2011)

Tiny Fluffy Coblet said:




Oh and the chances of me getting a property through the council to rent are slim to nil because I am working hard not popping out sprogs and on benefits. The likelihood of me getting a shared ownership mortgage are slim to nil as I earn under 18,000 a year even though £300pcm in mortgage and £100 pcm in rent would cost less than most rent for bedsits - probably looking at £500 a month MINUMUM for a pokey little grotty bedsit. 

Bitter? me? never.
		
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There are many many more in just the same position... This is my point. The people who are responsible about bringing children into this world are abstaining for perfectly valid reasons whereas those that don't seem to care all that much are popping them out two a penny so they can get a boob job. 

This is going to cause devolution. We are going to end up being a nation of thick necked fools who simply can't keep up with the worlds society. We will fall behind on industry, our own society will no longer bother to push for inovation, learning social skills, work ethics etc. The few who are born to good parents will flee as soon as possible and we will loose all balance in society... Bad news - very bad news... Since when has it EVER been a boasting point to be on benefits and now thats what we have while those who do work and have a strong social ethic are punished beyond the realms for trying to live a decent life. By decent I mean roof over head clean and tidy and not sponging from others just normal I guess!


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## Tiny Fluffy Coblet (18 February 2011)

I have no solution but I suggest you watch Idiocracy - no solution there either but a worrying thought even if it is a comedy film.


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## ester (18 February 2011)

edited cos I realised the £14k figure quoted was before tax.


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## *hic* (19 February 2011)

Paddydou said:



			In my area;
Rent for a very small house or flat £750pm (this is very very cheap and based on renting from the local council - usual rent for something a little nicer and you are looking at over £1k pm, for a 3 bed semi think around £1500pm as average but you can be looking to pay anything up to £2k pm to rent privately)
Council Tax for said small property £100pm
Electric to heat and power said small property £150
Food/ cleaning goods for the month £150 (thats just under £35 per week)

That leaves you £85 for the rest of the month to power a car if you need one to get to work or catch the bus, to purchase clothes so you do not look like Hans Christian Andersons Emperor, pay emergency bills such as the oven breaking or fridge giving up the ghost, pay for your "active social life" ho hum would love to know what the JR foundation are doing in their spare time! I haven't included their version of essentials such as mobile phones nor even a landline or TV licence... Buggar I also forgot water rates thats pretty essential so that takes you down to £60 per month... 

Come on when will our "offical reporters" get a grip and live in the real world?
		
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That's why people live in places like where I live. Here the rent for a very small house or flat is around £325 a month. A 3 bed semi will set you back £500 and above. A detached 3 bed 2 bath house with stables and an acre paddock could be yours for £900 per month. These are private costs.

You can buy a spacious Victorian end of terrace, 3 beds, 2 receptions, 2 bathrooms for under £150K.

So using your example of the cheap flat above a tenant round here would have around £410 a month to 




			power a car if you need one to get to work or catch the bus, to purchase clothes so you do not look like Hans Christian Andersons Emperor, pay emergency bills such as the oven breaking or fridge giving up the ghost, pay for your "active social life" ho hum
		
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## perfect11s (19 February 2011)

Paddydou said:



			There are many many more in just the same position... This is my point. The people who are responsible about bringing children into this world are abstaining for perfectly valid reasons whereas those that don't seem to care all that much are popping them out two a penny so they can get a boob job. 

This is going to cause devolution. We are going to end up being a nation of thick necked fools who simply can't keep up with the worlds society. We will fall behind on industry, our own society will no longer bother to push for inovation, learning social skills, work ethics etc. The few who are born to good parents will flee as soon as possible and we will loose all balance in society... Bad news - very bad news... Since when has it EVER been a boasting point to be on benefits and now thats what we have while those who do work and have a strong social ethic are punished beyond the realms for trying to live a decent life. By decent I mean roof over head clean and tidy and not sponging from others just normal I guess!
		
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 yes I agree up to a point and standards of living is falling  I do think the goverment is starting to get a grip of welfare maybe too little too late we will have to wait and see ..I would like to see the gap narrow between the lowest and the highest earners, However with our present level of economic migration pay will always be depresed  at the bottom..  mr and mrs pole can come work for a few years share a house with others and take a tidy to them sum home,  and gives cheap labour alowing the rich to get richer, its a scorched earth poicy realy because wealth is leaving the country...instead of being reinvested ...


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## MochaDun (19 February 2011)

combat_claire said:



			This is how the JRF break the figure down:

Food 44.34
Alcohol 4.69
Clothing 7.73
Water rates 4.93
Council Tax 13.93
Household Insurances 1.90
Gas, electricity, etc 9.78
Other housing costs 2.44
Household goods 10.35
Household services4.42
Childcare 0.00
Personal goods and services 8.95
Travel costs and motoring 19.72
Social and cultural activities 42.16
Rent 52.62
Mortgage 0.00

Their tool classes me as my salary being enough for a minimum standard of living. Perhaps I should leave the results lying around on my desk and hope my boss takes pity on me...
		
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Have they based these monthly figures on monthly averages across the country?  Because some of those figures seem to me utterly unrealistic.  I have a one bed house and my house and contents insurance costs me £14 pm and that's shopping around through endless brokers and companies, unless that's assuming rented and therefore just contents insurance?  Gas & electric quoted above is surely not realistic - I want to know who can only incur £9 of gas & electric combined across any month in the winter.  My water rates are £14 per month...where did this charity get these figures from?  I'm paying all these costs by myself so no way could I do this on that total amount in income..


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## Mithras (19 February 2011)

I remember reading somewhere recently that young people need twice the equivalent salary that their parents did to afford the same lifestyle...

The Rowntree foundation do seem to come up with strange conclusions at times.  They are great at headline grabbing, but one of their most famous headlines was that 1/3 of children were living in poverty.  Poverty was defined however as where the parents earned below a certain percentage of average income, not on more tangible factors which might more accurately define poverty.  And excuse me if I'm wrong, because I am not a statistician, but on that definition of poverty, aren't a high number of children always going to be defined as living in poverty (and therefore stigmatised before they even reach adulthood)?

I'm not sure how they are run, but they seem to be quite politically motivated, and I'd be suspicous that their research is conducted so as to provide the outcome they initially set out to achieve.

I also think the Rowntree foundation assume that everyone lives in a housing association property, with disproportionately cheap rent.  I don't know what you would get in the private sector for that and my council tax for my 2 bedroom flat is 5 times as much.

I agree that under Labour, social mobility became much worse.  But then Labour's idea of social progress is for their cronies to work for the Council and to earn 3 times as much as they would do in the private sector while doing half the work!


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## Sanolly (19 February 2011)

Lol well according to that I am stuffed. I live on a farm so put rural/hamlet:

£18,578
£282.76 per week
BREAKDOWNshow details
Food44.34
Alcohol4.69
Clothing7.75
Water rates4.93
Council Tax13.93
Household Insurances1.90
Gas, electricity, etc27.08
Other housing costs2.44
Household goods10.46
Household services4.42
Childcare0.00
Personal goods and services8.95
Travel costs and motoring43.56
Social and cultural activites42.27
Rent66.04
Mortgage -0

well I earn, if I am lucky, £14,000 a year!


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## ester (19 February 2011)

Mocha that is per week figures.


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## Apercrumbie (19 February 2011)

jemima_too said:



			That's why people live in places like where I live. Here the rent for a very small house or flat is around £325 a month. A 3 bed semi will set you back £500 and above. A detached 3 bed 2 bath house with stables and an acre paddock could be yours for £900 per month. These are private costs.

You can buy a spacious Victorian end of terrace, 3 beds, 2 receptions, 2 bathrooms for under £150K.
		
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If you don't mind me asking, what area do you live in?  It sounds great!


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## ester (19 February 2011)

my old studio flat (I was there for a couple of years 2 years ago) was £340 now on market for £320 pcm. 

I managed that while earning £14500 with a 16 mile commute to work and back, no internet, no computer, no sky, no phone line etc!  

knowing what my take home from that was after tax I think that would certainly be a struggle now with the recent price increases, and the trouble is that saving goes out the window which just stores up trouble for later on. 

I am lucky to have found a nice place now which the owner doesn't want to charge that much for and being a full time student postgrad am council tax exempt which is enough to make the difference between being able to do it and not.


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## MochaDun (20 February 2011)

ester said:



			Mocha that is per week figures.
		
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Ah thanks I should have read it properly


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## Faithkat (21 February 2011)

well, I am quite a good example of the £19k gross salary :
I live in a housing association flat - one bedroom -  and I live alone so qualify for the single person discount on my council tax.  The rent is a third of my take-home pay then it's plus the council tax which was £75 per month and I'm waiting with fear and trembling to see what it will be w.e.f. April.  My gas and electricity combined are £78 per month and my (metered) water payment goes up on 1st March from £14.80 per month to £29.30.  . . .  and I haven't had a pay review in 3 years  . . . .  I am retiring next year and I am very worried about the utility bills as they will consitute well over 20% of my income.  At the moment I am out at least 12 hours per day so God only knows what the bills will be when I'm home all day.  I can see me sitting under a duvet in the winter  
I'd love to know how they reckon you could live on £14,400 - although, I suppose, on that figure I might qualify for housing benefit!


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## diet2ride (21 February 2011)

Those are ridiculous figure's. I don't know how they expect people to live. 

We have a few debts (credit cards) etc that we are paying. It dawned on me a few weeks ago it's not those that are the problem it's the household bills that screw us each month and Hubby,s commute into work. Add to that the hike in petrol again. I,d like to see the people who workout these figures live a full life on that.

I consider myself one of the lucky ones. Hubby does have a good job. But I do know what it was like when I was single trying to keep a roof over my head was a monthly nitemare. I would make the rent and then spend rest of month worrying how I would pay it again.


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## alpha1 (21 February 2011)

Paddydou said:



			I am band A and have the single person discount and its £98 a month as well! No I do not live in London! 

The figures quoted are an absolute joke. 

There is going to be a breaking point soon. In order for people to buy things they need the money, in order for companies to sell products they need people to buy them, in order to pay peoples wages companies need to sell sell sell... This is why I hate Labour. They spend spend spend until there is nothing left then we vote in the conservatives they just about get round to paying it all off and life starts to get good then we get fed up with them and vote Labour back in who spend spend spend and the cycle starts all over again. 

We have a process of devolution going on here.
		
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Well said! Totally agree with you!


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## BBH (22 February 2011)

diet2ride said:



			Those are ridiculous figure's. I don't know how they expect people to live. 

We have a few debts (credit cards) etc that we are paying. It dawned on me a few weeks ago it's not those that are the problem it's the household bills that screw us each month and Hubby,s commute into work. Add to that the hike in petrol again. I,d like to see the people who workout these figures live a full life on that.

I consider myself one of the lucky ones. Hubby does have a good job. But I do know what it was like when I was single trying to keep a roof over my head was a monthly nitemare. I would make the rent and then spend rest of month worrying how I would pay it again.
		
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I met someone the other day who had to ring in sick for the last two days before payday because he couldn't afford the fuel to get to work  How can that be good for the economy.

Being single is very hard financially as everything is down to one person and you don't get bills halved to compensate. The other thing is you're far more vulnerable cos if you're made redundant thats it no money coming in whereas as part of a couple at least you have one wage coming in which may mean tightening your belt but the essentials will be paid.


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## Paddydou (22 February 2011)

BBH said:



			I met someone the other day who had to ring in sick for the last two days before payday because he couldn't afford the fuel to get to work  How can that be good for the economy.
		
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I think this is going to happen more often as people can't cut back any more. More and more are using credit cards for essentials such as food and fuel to get to work and then can't pay it all off at the end of the month and hit that horrid cycle of ever incresing debts. Not at all good.


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## olop (22 February 2011)

Before I met my OH I was on my own for a while & earning 18k - I could not afford to live away from my parents on that wage, that is even before I started taking my boy's costs into the equation.

Those figures are rediculous - to live on that wage you would need to either live at home (with parents) or in a hostel.

Really gives all the youngsters across the country something to live for don't you think??


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## Tiny Fluffy Coblet (22 February 2011)

Before I met my OH I
		
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This is also a common thread - those of us who aren't lucky enough to have an OH to split the bills with (bearing in mind it is cheaper to get 1x 2bed than 2x 1 bed on housing and bills/food ect are cheaper together) are in a difficult position. I have no OH, there isn't much chance of me having one within the next year minimum (I wouldn't move in with someone without knowing them for at least 6 month/a year first) I am penalised for being single as well.


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## EAST KENT (22 February 2011)

Paddydou said:



			There are many many more in just the same position... This is my point. The people who are responsible about bringing children into this world are abstaining for perfectly valid reasons whereas those that don't seem to care all that much are popping them out two a penny so they can get a boob job. 

This is going to cause devolution. We are going to end up being a nation of thick necked fools who simply can't keep up with the worlds society. We will fall behind on industry, our own society will no longer bother to push for inovation, learning social skills, work ethics etc. The few who are born to good parents will flee as soon as possible and we will loose all balance in society... Bad news - very bad news... Since when has it EVER been a boasting point to be on benefits and now thats what we have while those who do work and have a strong social ethic are punished beyond the realms for trying to live a decent life. By decent I mean roof over head clean and tidy and not sponging from others just normal I guess!
		
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Oh Lordy Paddy, we reached that point already in my opinion; it is quite terrifying how our so called education has failed so many.One I know has (said proudly) nine GCSE`s and has`nt a clue where Wales is in relation to Kent...or anywhere else either.Scarey to see how ignorant she is ..and with a supposedly decent school result. Oh and her OH is positively neanderthal in his lack of intelligence..but these are the normal folk in our country.There is no longer a thirst for education in our culture,just an acceptance that the state will provide.I run a breeding kennel,hard manial labour ,insisting as I do on a good standard of care and cleanliness it has become impossible to employ youngsters who have no work ethic nor will accept any form of correction if a job is done inadequately.The same now is apparent in the NHS and paid "carers"..who don`t care at all. What other country,BTW , PAYS children to look after their PARENTS in old age??? Unbelievable!
   I have a very obese friend ,"waiting" for bariatric surgery to prevent her stuffing her face ,she can afford to pay herself,esp as all these private schemes have a never-never payment option..BUT she chooses to let you,me and the State pay for it.
  If I were younger I would bugger off elsewhere too.Cannot abide all these scroungers


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## Paddydou (24 February 2011)

Oh EK stop passing me that soap box because I am desperate to stamp my feet on it!

Two points to throw fat into the fire. 

Why on earth are we allowing what is effectivly a publicly owned bank that is STILL making a loss to give its senior staff a bloody hefty great big bonus that consists of more money than many could earn in a life time instead of using that money to get itself back into profit and pay the damned rescue money back???

Why is the NHS being given more stress by having more demands placed on it as people want tatoos removed because they made a mistake when they were younger in getting it? HELLO! You made the bloody choice you had the bloody thing painted on knowing full well it was for life and not just the 60's get off your ass and let the NHS pay for a few heart by passes or cancer treatments. But no you want to wear a short sleved top so that makes you so much more important. We were all young once we all did silly things but we all have to face the concequences of our actions. Why should someones Granny suffer so they can have a removal for free? Why should someones new born go with out emergency care just because they were a wild child at 18? Bloody people.

I could make more points but will have to stop there before I start giving myself health problems! Bloody people really have no clue about real life on the ground do they. Last year I over heard some 16 year old kids talking about how they wouldn't shovel **** or even bother getting out of bed for less than £8 per hour. Its a sign of the times it really is. Labour were in power for far too long. I really do feel for you trying to get decent employees I really do. What happened to starting at the bottom and learning from experiance? Now everyone expects to be a millionaire for nothing.


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