# Young Horse Misbehaving Help Please



## BackonTrack (28 November 2016)

3 months ago I bought a 4 green year old to event. I have experience and have evented up to Novice but know I have my limitations and only took him on knowing I could put him with a pro rider to work with us. He's been going brilliantly in some ways but has, what I believe is a nasty streak and just wanted to hear others opinions or experiences. He is brilliant to handle, clip, box, travel, shoe, hacks out on his own, school on the flat, poles work, all of that. The problem is he has a bold streak that I'm not sure he'll ever grow out of, it feels like his default when, he either doesn't want to do something or is unsure. Do they ever leave the nasty streaks behind or does it stay for life - that's my question. 

Yesterday I decided to give him a canter in the field as hed been so good in the arena for 2 days.  There's some x/c jumps scattered around so we decided to do a few. The girl who rides him during the week has jumped everything on the course with him but has had major rows and had a massive row during the week but felt she won out in the end and I've no reason to doubt her. We went into the water, over the tiny log again and all was good. Cantered in the field, up and down little bank and headed home. Went to drop down into water and he said no, got after him and he went in 4th time, did it 4 more times. Popped a tiny cottage, turned back to jump it again, which was pointing for home and he quit and had a melt down. Could not get him to jump it, he reared, plunged, bucked, twisted, kicked out, jeez seriously bold. Thought at one point he was going to go over backwards. Knew I couldnt let him away with it but could not get him anywhere near jumping the cottage, so trotted back to the arena, he backed off all the way and I had to kick and smack him to get him to go forward, quit again before we went in, tried to rear but I was ready this time and twisted him onto a tiny circle, hunted him into the arena, trotted round, made him jump x-pole a few times, trotted back out of the arena, over a tiny pipe jump, cantered on down to the cottage and 2 strides out he quit again and started again, rearing, twisting, kicking out, plunging, bucking, nearly got me off. Im afraid I went home, he scared me and there was a bit of me going, am I bothered trying to sort this out. He was seriously bold. Yes, I know, I hear you, he's only 4 but it's not like he's over-faced or not ready or any of those things, and the things you think he'd spook at or misbehave at he's as good as gold, and the stuff he should do, he just says no, it doesn't feel like a green horse, it actually feels like a very practised nappy horse. 
*
Can I ever trust him. I know I shouldn't have quit I should have made him jump the cottage but I could just not see a way to get him to do it. She rides 3 times a week and I ride 3 times a week. I've taken him to dressage shows and he's done brilliantly every time, she does all the teaching work with him, over grids, little courses etc and has started him over all the x/c jumps anything I do is what she's already done. My plan is to move him to an eventing yard end Dec, who have a very good instructor, so I'll have plenty of advise on hand and he'll continue to be ridden 3 days a week by a pro and 3 by me. I can easily sell him from there if I want to but do they every quit this kind of behaviour.

Thoughts?


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## Sukistokes2 (28 November 2016)

You have a baby horse, he is FOUR! He needs to be nurtured and brought on, given confidence not smacked and whacked. First of all make sure all the tack your using fits, young horses change shape very quickly, then go back to basics to rebuild his confidence, you say he has not been overfaced , he is telling you different. There is to much talk of not letting him get away with stuff and no questions of why he'd jump something one day with one rider and not the next with a different rider. It's so easy to blame the horse and not look to the rider or riders. Horses do not suddenly dicide to be naughty, something has changed that has made him play up. You have scared yourself and he sounds scared too. Before you get up again think through what has happened and put in place a plan to rebuild both of your confidences. Maybe have a lesson with a good instructor. Maybe have his tack checked and his back checked. Have you thought he might be growing? Some horses put on growth spurts this time of year, has he gone bum high, has that affected his jumping ability ? With a four year old there is so much you need to think about esp if you are already working them at the level you are. 
I'm not trying to be mean just honest and give you a different view from a different angle


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## Goldenstar (28 November 2016)

i am curious you describe his behaviour as bold he doesn't sound bold to me .


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## Asha (28 November 2016)

I think hes telling you hes had enough.

Hes 4, and being ridden 6 times a week. Which in my opinion is way too much. I'm not surprised hes having a melt down.

In your shoes, Id get a good physio /osteo to come and give him the once over, after all that I bet hes got quite a few aches and pains. Then id give him a few months off in the field, and let chill for a bit.


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## Sukistokes2 (28 November 2016)

Asha said:



			I think hes telling you hes had enough.

Hes 4, and being ridden 6 times a week. Which in my opinion is way too much. I'm not surprised hes having a melt down.

In your shoes, Id get a good physio /osteo to come and give him the once over, after all that I bet hes got quite a few aches and pains. Then id give him a few months off in the field, and let chill for a bit.
		
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Hit the nail on the head ***like****


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## Shay (28 November 2016)

I suspect OP doesn't mean bold - or at least not as I would mean it.  This sounds green and very scared.  Horses are not nasty - they don't have mean streaks.  They just have humans who can't hear what  they are trying to say, and / or don't know how to "talk" back.

OP - you say you are experienced as an eventer and I absolutely do not doubt you.  But are you experienced at bringing on a young horse?  At 4 he should be gaining his confidence and experience.  Battling with him isn't the right way to go about this.  Of course he needs to know and respect his boundaries and be well mannered.  But the behaviour he seems to be showing reads to me like he is shouting at the top of his voice for you to pay attention to something and you are just ignoring him - making the behaviour worse and worse.

He could be in pain from a growth spurt / shape change.  He could be overfaced.  He could be sensitive and just responding to your fear.  In your place I would rule out pain / tack fit and then go right back to basics for a while.  There is no hurry - you won't be eventing him next season anyway - he's too young still.  Take some time now to build his confidence.

Or he isn't the horse for you.  Don't damage him any worse - someone else will have the skills to take him on and make something of him.  This is an expensive sport and not everyone has the time or inclination to bring on a young horse.  And eventing is a partnership - if that partnership is broken, sometimes the better answer is to walk away from one that doesn't suit and get one that does.  

But please don't label the horse without looking further.

Edited to add - cross posted with 2 above.  Absolutely agree 6 times a week too much for one so young!


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## BackonTrack (28 November 2016)

You really are a sanctimonious bunch aren&#8217;t you. It&#8217;s no wonder I never post for advise and just lurk here. You all made assumptions. You didn&#8217;t ask what work he&#8217;s doing 6 days a week, you assumed he&#8217;s getting too much work, well he&#8217;s not, he&#8217;s ridden no more than 20 minutes at each session, 2 of those days are hacks, his tack fits was checked when osteo came 10 days ago, has jumped that cottage so many times before, as for being overfaced it is no more than 50 cm high, he has never been overfaced. He is pushing my boundaries, and pushes N&#8217;s just the same. He&#8217;s been doing this since we got him, this isn&#8217;t new behaviour. I have brought on young horses and have had many tricky ones in the past who have turned out well. The rider who trains him for me is very experienced, this is her job, her husband trains her and is on the ground most days when she&#8217;s jumping him. I didn&#8217;t hammer him or beat him. Don&#8217;t make so many assumptions.


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## Goldenstar (28 November 2016)

I think it's fine  to ride four year old six times a week but it's a question of how much and what you do and it sounds to me that this horse is doing the wrong things and too much of it .
To have a four year old in a situation were it being asked to jump into water and it's stopping is mad the most XC they should be doing is very low key stuff with company so it fun and easy five or six small jumps them walk home .
The behaviour described sounds like an over faced horse.
But OP can't mean the horse is bold she must be saying bold and meaning something else .

PS this crossed posted with above .


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## LadySam (28 November 2016)

It's in the last two sentences of OP's first paragraph.  Bold = nasty.


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## 9tails (28 November 2016)

You've described how you drilled him into the water by doing it 5 times over in your original post, you certainly were riding him a lot longer than 20 minutes jumping over and over.  I also think you're doing far too much.  You may think you're experienced but you're pushing this one too fast.  They're all different, you need to learn to read them.


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## Goldenstar (28 November 2016)

The horse is four OP back off and see what happens .
Make life low key and fun for three months .
And I would defiantly check that his front feet don't hurt .


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## be positive (28 November 2016)

You say you are not doing much yet it was his second jumping session in the field this week, to me that is too much when he also has two different riders who with the best will in the world will approach things differently, I don't think he sounds like the type to keep pushing on with, overfacing is not just about height but also how much you do with them, he has only been with you 3 months, is good in most ways so I would back off a bit and concentrate on working on his strengths until you have him more on your side.
Every time you have a "battle" whether you "win" or lose it is ingraining the negative behaviour and he will be losing any confidence he has built up, I am not sure having two different riders doing jump work with him at this stage is beneficial and would probably stick to one of you jumping him until he is more experienced, whether that is you or the pro depends on where you aim to go in the future but to me is seems too much to expect him to cope, and his behaviour strongly suggests he isn't, with you both.


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## tristar (28 November 2016)

i would never be doing any of the things you are doing at four years old.

you are showing total lack of empathy and knowledge of training a young horse, and as for blaming him and calling him nasty, that`s just not fair!

and by the way i don`t care what you think!


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## Goldenstar (28 November 2016)

You ask if horses change the answer is it depends why they are showing undesirable behaviour .


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## ljohnsonsj (28 November 2016)

Far to much force and not enough understanding. If this was my horse and he 'wouldn't jump the cottage' I'd look at myself. what are you doing? Cantering and smacking him into it? You've given him something to be scared of here unfortunately. You should be walking him around, trotting into things and if he isn't sure then walk upto it, pat him and give him re assurance. He is supposed to be your friend and team mate, not your machine. No horse is nasty, some learn 'bad behaviour' but certainly not at 4. This horse is at a key age which will shape his future and I really think you should look into letting him go to someone else if you've not got the patience.


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## ihatework (28 November 2016)

If he is due to go off to a pro yard I'd be inclined to turn him away for a few weeks first.

They are all different, so it's difficult to advise fully, but the one thing that IMO is essential is regular downtime.

My general preference for 4yo's would be 4-5 short sessions a week, maximum of 2 in the school.

We bought one that is now 5, who just didn't do well on that regime and needed more work BUT we factored in very regular breaks, we would do 6 weeks then give 2 weeks off and that seemed to suit him much better.

Interestingly he has had quite a full on half season eventing, performed exceptionally well, went out to the field early October about 16.1hh and has just come in hairy and 16.3hh ... 2 inches in 6 weeks!!! So don't underestimate how much growing (or needing to grow when in work) can take out of them


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## Sugar_and_Spice (28 November 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			i am curious you describe his behaviour as bold he doesn't sound bold to me .
		
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I think OP means "bold" as in "naughty/answers back" a (old fashioned?) term for a child that doesn't do as it's told.



BackonTrack said:



			You really are a sanctimonious bunch arent you. Its no wonder I never post for advise and just lurk here. You all made assumptions. You didnt ask what work hes doing 6 days a week, you assumed hes getting too much work, well hes not, hes ridden no more than 20 minutes at each session, 2 of those days are hacks, his tack fits was checked when osteo came 10 days ago, has jumped that cottage so many times before, as for being overfaced it is no more than 50 cm high, he has never been overfaced. He is pushing my boundaries, and pushes Ns just the same. Hes been doing this since we got him, this isnt new behaviour. I have brought on young horses and have had many tricky ones in the past who have turned out well. The rider who trains him for me is very experienced, this is her job, her husband trains her and is on the ground most days when shes jumping him. I didnt hammer him or beat him. Dont make so many assumptions.
		
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You haven't a clue.  You took a young horse for a canter round the field after doing so well in the arena the past 2 days, you make that sound like it's meant to be a reward, all good there.  But then *you* (not "we", the horse didn't decide, you did) decide to do some XC jumps, despite knowing the other rider had had "a row" with the horse doing just that earlier that week.  How is asking the horse to do something that upset him not so long ago, a reward?!  It was shear stupidity on your behalf and even when the horse said "NO" as loud as he could, you still didn't realise your mistake in pushing him too far and carried on doing it.  You're going to end up with a sour backward horse that refuses to do any work at all if you keep going the way you are and it won't be because the horse has a "nasty streak" it'll be because you do.


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## CrazyMare (28 November 2016)

To give you some perspective, my 4 year old is ridden 2-3 times a week and has just started popping ankle height fences. I train with an Olympic rider.


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## 9tails (28 November 2016)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			You haven't a clue.  You took a young horse for a canter round the field after doing so well in the arena the past 2 days, you make that sound like it's meant to be a reward, all good there.  But then *you* (not "we", the horse didn't decide, you did) decide to do some XC jumps, despite knowing the other rider had had "a row" with the horse doing just that earlier that week.  How is asking the horse to do something that upset him not so long ago, a reward?!  It was shear stupidity on your behalf and even when the horse said "NO" as loud as he could, you still didn't realise your mistake in pushing him too far and carried on doing it.  You're going to end up with a sour backward horse that refuses to do any work at all if you keep going the way you are and it won't be because the horse has a "nasty streak" it'll be because you do.
		
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Bravo.


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## Llee94 (28 November 2016)

I event and my 4 year old is on holiday and hasnt even jumped under saddle yet. But he is a big horse who is going to be slow to mature. 
If it were me I would say maybe take it a bit easy for the next few weeks. If you don't want to give him time off then maybe just do some hacking and make it fun for him.
Remeber that he is still a baby at 4. Mine has had a few moments which have knocked my confidence and I find myself forgetting that he is so young and still learning. I find myself worrying that this behaviour, that he has shown twice in all the times I have ridden him and was due to ulcers, will continue. But since he has been on holiday he has been a saint and I led him out while hacking at the weekend and he couldnt have behaved any better. 
Give it time, I'm sure he will get better. But I would give him a break. Just make sure you finish on a good note!


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## ycbm (28 November 2016)

I hope to god this is a troll 

If not, OP   - STOP-   for one moment and consider what this horse is trying to say to you.

He's over faced, over ridden, or in pain. Find out which before he's ruined forever.


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## FlashyP (28 November 2016)

BackonTrack said:



			Yes, I know, I hear you, he's only 4 but it's not like he's over-faced or not ready or any of those things, and the things you think he'd spook at or misbehave at he's as good as gold, and the stuff he should do, he just says no, it doesn't feel like a green horse, it actually feels like a very practised nappy horse.
		
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You can say he isn't overfaced, but the behaviour you describe suggests he is very definitely overfaced and instead of you having empathy for him and thinking of different ways to approach his training to build his confidence, he is getting quite seriously punished for being really worried, which isn't likely to give him much confidence. A young horse being physically capable and ready is very different to it being mentally capable and ready. I think 90% of young horse training is about training the brain and keeping things well within their physical comfort zone. Once the horse is with you mentally, once it trusts and respects its rider, then progressing physically (bigger more complex jumps etc) will be easy. 

Also, what you or I think are reasonable things to spook at are often very different to what a horse thinks is worrying, it may be frustrating but that's just how it is and if the horse finds something worrying, however stupid we think it is, we just have to work at building its coping skills.


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## paddi22 (28 November 2016)

i'd step back and ask what you are asking the horse to do, as you are contradicting even yourself.

You say you took the horse into the field as a 'reward' but then jumped it, even though you say yourself the pro rider had had a battle with the horse over the fences during the week. How on earth is it a reward to take a horse into a situation it resisted early in week. A reward would be taking the horse for a nice stressfree canter and a potter around on a long rein. Not taking it in to school over fences it had been stressed with during week.

The logic of taking it out of field, jumping it in arena and then taking it back into field makes no sense, probably confused the horse and made the situation worse. It's  a baby brain, and that needs to be respected. I would question any trainer that would fight and battle a baby horse around an xc course. It's not a good way to set a horse up to enjoy xc. With any green horses i have i literally keep them over 20cm logs and only increase the height when you feel they are happy and confident enough to pull you to a fence. Some horses might take longer to get confident with heights, but fighting them over the fences isn't the way to go.


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## blackhor2e (28 November 2016)

At risk of jumping on the band wagon here, my first thought was he is four and my second thought was if he gets himself into such a frenzy why don't you just wait him out quietly and patiently instead of for want of better words attacking him. 

I think firm and kind is the best approach for youngsters. If he backs up starts being silly, wait for him to stop don't make it a dramatic showdown. Keep your patience and squeeze him on until he gives you the right answer in a relaxed way.


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## paddi22 (28 November 2016)

Op, just because the horse has jumped those xc jumps doesn't mean it automatically should just jump them again with no question. You can school over a waterjump five days in a row and every day the horse might view it differently due to small details like the amount of sunshine in the horses eyes coming to it, the amount of water reflecting off it, if the wind is rippling it and it hasn't dealt with that before - there are tiny things that make a huge difference to a baby horse who is just trying to process them for the first time.  Plus it's switching between two different riders and their reactions, which can be confusing for any horse. 

It's really easy on event yards to follow the lead of what the pro is doing and what the horse is 'expected' to be doing., but so often you see young horses being pushed at too fast a level for where they are at just because they have 'should' have the capability to do stuff. I've seen a few people get 'good' baby horses from pro yards and really struggle when horses get thrown in to even the smaller levels too fast.  You see horses refusing tiny jumps and being nervous on courses, when they would have benefitted from a few low level hunter trial pairs where the just learn to have fun and go forward in a low pressure environment. Some horses just take a bit more time and when you meet resistance you have to think laterally and solve the problem a different way rather than rowing and fighting with the horse. 

It's a dangerous road to go down to stick labels on a horse so early as being bold, nappy of having a 'bad streak' in it. You want it to be fun for them, and for them to enjoy their job. You need to increase their comfort bubble slowly. if you push it too fast it bursts.  When you encountered that  issue with your horse you didn't sit back, relax and solve it logically with your horse. or even try and understand why it was reacting as it did. Instead you kept increasing what you were asking it to do and  You piled on more and more questions on to the horse. Even something as small as starting in a  field, then going back to the arena, and then back to the field can fry a baby horse if they have only recently understood and processed  'arena work' and 'field work'. 

You need to set the horse up to win and be patient. There is no benefit in asking a crystal ball if your horse will always have a bad streak. If you want a horse thats an xc machine then buy a schoolmaster, If you bought a baby who is learning stuff then you need to change your thinking. If it was my horse i'd pull it from the pro yard and just have fun and get to know it for a few months with no pressure or timetable. It will do your partnership much more good than the path you are on at the moment.


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## paddi22 (28 November 2016)

FlashyP said:



			A young horse being physically capable and ready is very different to it being mentally capable and ready. I think 90% of young horse training is about training the brain and keeping things well within their physical comfort zone. Once the horse is with you mentally, once it trusts and respects its rider, then progressing physically (bigger more complex jumps etc) will be easy.
		
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thats a lovely way of putting it


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## Pearlsasinger (28 November 2016)

BackonTrack said:



			You really are a sanctimonious bunch aren&#8217;t you. It&#8217;s no wonder I never post for advise and just lurk here. You all made assumptions. You didn&#8217;t ask what work he&#8217;s doing 6 days a week, you assumed he&#8217;s getting too much work, well he&#8217;s not, he&#8217;s ridden no more than 20 minutes at each session, 2 of those days are hacks, his tack fits was checked when osteo came 10 days ago, has jumped that cottage so many times before, as for being overfaced it is no more than 50 cm high, he has never been overfaced. He is pushing my boundaries, and pushes N&#8217;s just the same. He&#8217;s been doing this since we got him, this isn&#8217;t new behaviour. I have brought on young horses and have had many tricky ones in the past who have turned out well. The rider who trains him for me is very experienced, this is her job, her husband trains her and is on the ground most days when she&#8217;s jumping him. I didn&#8217;t hammer him or beat him. Don&#8217;t make so many assumptions.
		
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You asked for help!
There isn't one poster who has supported your stance with this horse, so perhaps you should ponder on this.
I would have thought that it must be pretty obvious to anyone who knows anything about youngsters, that this horse is trying to tell you something. Why won't you listen? Presumably for the same reason that you refuse to listen to a number of experienced posters all telling you the same thing - there is something wrong and it is up to you to work out what it is. The horse is doing his bit by telling you that he is not happy.
There really isn't much point asking for help and then refusing to acknowledge that the advice offered may be correct.


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## Doormouse (28 November 2016)

There are always so many factors to consider with young horses and each one is different in attitude, capability, strength, mental competence etc.

We are coming into winter, the ground is changing daily, it may have felt slippy in the field to him that day, he may not have felt comfortable with his balance as a consequence. 

I would just ease off him a bit, young horses are usually pretty good at letting you know when they need a break.


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## Lulup (28 November 2016)

My two four year olds are purely hacking - hopefully teaching them to go forwards and widen their experience before starting a bit more schooling early next spring. 
At this age ideally you'd be tailoring their experiences to be positive and build their confidence and understanding. I do my best to avoid confrontational situations because the adrenaline can escalate things very quickly and I don't wish them to learn how to say NO!! There is almost always a way to work round a problem. I would consider turning away - will let any aches/pains die down and will likely come back refreshed and you can build things up gently without having to meet this head on xx


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## FfionWinnie (29 November 2016)

Why get yourself into this situation with a 4yr old. You want positive results every ride so you should have had a sensible chaperone there to help if necessary.  I also think you are doing too much. 20 mins is too much if it's the wrong things.


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## Micropony (29 November 2016)

"Bold", "nasty", words like that have no place in the head of someone working with a young horse. From your description of what you did with him on Saturday, you were on his back for about three times as long as you should have been, and chose to use that time in a foolish and damaging way.

I do not have as much personal experience of producing youngsters as you claim to have, but mine has never been treated like yours and so has never felt the need to behave like yours has. However I have watched lots of youngsters being produced for sale, i.e. with commercial pressure to sell, and none of them have been pressured like yours either.

Either you are being badly advised or you are not listening to the advice you are being given. Either way, give your poor horse a break!

Why not take up motocross or something instead?


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## rachk89 (29 November 2016)

I wouldn't even put my 7 year old through that. He is still growing and so is your horse. If you want a lame horse at 10 years old then continue with your training schedule. But he will break at some point and soon.


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## Goldenstar (29 November 2016)

Micropony said:



			"Bold", "nasty", words like that have no place in the head of someone working with a young horse. From your description of what you did with him on Saturday, you were on his back for about three times as long as you should have been, and chose to use that time in a foolish and damaging way.

I do not have as much personal experience of producing youngsters as you claim to have, but mine has never been treated like yours and so has never felt the need to behave like yours has. However I have watched lots of youngsters being produced for sale, i.e. with commercial pressure to sell, and none of them have been pressured like yours either.

Either you are being badly advised or you are not listening to the advice you are being given. Either way, give your poor horse a break!

Why not take up motocross or something instead?
		
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Why can a horse not be described as bold ?
I agree OP's horse is not bold she's not using the word to describe what is called bold in horses .


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## Casey76 (29 November 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Why can a horse not be described as bold ?
I agree OP's horse is not bold she's not using the word to describe what is called bold in horses .
		
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I believe in this instance MP is using the definition of "bold" as used by the OP.  Not "confident and forward thinking, especially xc or hunting", but rather "opinionated, stroppy, argumentative."

I agree, that a young horse shouldn't be faced with situations which can lead to the application of such labels.  You are asking the question in the wrong time and place, in the wrong way (not necessarily the wrong question).


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## 9tails (29 November 2016)

I doubt we'll see OP again.  Bunny huggers, every last one of us.


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## justine1559 (29 November 2016)

Gosh this post had made me so sad. Obviously I don&#8217;t know the background of what he&#8217;s done prior to being bought by the current owner or where he came from but phrases such as &#8216;nasty streak&#8217;, &#8216;very practised nappy horse&#8217; I just don&#8217;t associate with 4 year old horses.

Firstly I don&#8217;t think you/one should ever get on a horse without a plan of what you want to do /achieve that day even if it is just: I&#8217;m going to go for a hack and ensure that my horse is off my leg and walking out. Not, I&#8217;m going to reward my horse with a canter in the field after 2 days in the arena (too much) but actually I&#8217;ll do some xc schooling as well. That&#8217;s not a reward. Secondly to go out and jump round fences without anyone on the ground is just stupid. Thirdly &#8216;major rows&#8217; &#8216;massive row&#8217; are not going to give you a lovely event horse. You seem to be mistaking stress and fear for &#8216;seriously bold&#8217;. Finally, &#8217;it's not like he's over-faced or not ready or any of those things&#8217; well he clearly is telling you he is over faced and not ready or at least not in the way it&#8217;s being presented to him.

At this stage and beyond, every time you ride your horse should be a positive experience for him and conflict should be avoided. This takes time, planning and patience. I really think that ljohnsonsj is right that if you don&#8217;t have the patience maybe a more experienced horse would be better.

By the way I bought a four turning 5 year old horse a few years ago who is now 7 and is turning out to be a super event horse but even now I take the same approach with her: plan, nurture, avoid conflict. She&#8217;s still learning and the last thing I want her to do is do things out of fear.


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## Mamamia (29 November 2016)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			You haven't a clue.  You took a young horse for a canter round the field after doing so well in the arena the past 2 days, you make that sound like it's meant to be a reward, all good there.  But then *you* (not "we", the horse didn't decide, you did) decide to do some XC jumps, despite knowing the other rider had had "a row" with the horse doing just that earlier that week.  How is asking the horse to do something that upset him not so long ago, a reward?!  It was shear stupidity on your behalf and even when the horse said "NO" as loud as he could, you still didn't realise your mistake in pushing him too far and carried on doing it.  You're going to end up with a sour backward horse that refuses to do any work at all if you keep going the way you are and it won't be because the horse has a "nasty streak" it'll be because you do.
		
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I don't often respond to these types of thread but WELL SAID


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## ljohnsonsj (29 November 2016)

It's a shame people like the OP are allowed near young horses, but at least when the horse is 5 i'll probably be able to buy it cheap, help it love life again and have a lovely horse for not a lot of money! It's a real shame people continue to ruin nice horses with bratty behaviour.


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## Micropony (29 November 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Why can a horse not be described as bold ?
I agree OP's horse is not bold she's not using the word to describe what is called bold in horses .
		
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Fair challenge! I was talking about what the OP obviously meant by the term "bold" rather than the way I have heard it used previously.


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## MissTyc (29 November 2016)

To answer the OP's question. Yes, they grow up; yes, they change behaviour. Whether the behaviour changes into what you want it to be depends on how you respond to situations such as the one you describe. 

I have sympathy. I accidentally over-faced my 6 o because she was doing so well. I am very experienced yet I misread the mare on this occasion. I finally smelled the coffee after two falls, a loose horse who nearly ran into traffic, a previously confident horse that suddenly wouldn't load or be clipped. I was so angry ... _at myself_. I consider myself a sympathetic horsewoman and yet on that occasion I got it completely wrong and pushed a sensitive young horse who ended up being forced to say NO very aggressively. 

Plenty of people advised me to have a "row" with her about her behaviour, but instead I took it back to comfort zone. I did in-hand work, including just walking up the lane and grazing a hedge and then back to the yard, I lunged and long-reined. The day she relaxed around me, I turned her away for 6 weeks. Got back on her after those 6 weeks and what a delight. She felt new, fresh, ready. A few weeks after she went to a professional for 3 weeks and was amazing there and progressed enormously. But when she came home she had another 2 weeks off to digest all that new learning. Came back confident, powerful, and keen. Now locks onto fences in the distance that would previously had made her spook.  

I feel I "get her" now. Not that long ago, I was so upset when it all went wrong. I didn't see that I was pushing her outside her comfort zone and that she could only go so far before she snapped.


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## smja (29 November 2016)

MissTyc said:



			I have sympathy. I accidentally over-faced my 6 o because she was doing so well. I am very experienced yet I misread the mare on this occasion. I finally smelled the coffee after two falls, a loose horse who nearly ran into traffic, a previously confident horse that suddenly wouldn't load or be clipped. I was so angry ... _at myself_. I consider myself a sympathetic horsewoman and yet on that occasion I got it completely wrong and pushed a sensitive young horse who ended up being forced to say NO very aggressively. ....

I feel I "get her" now. Not that long ago, I was so upset when it all went wrong. I didn't see that I was pushing her outside her comfort zone and that she could only go so far before she snapped.
		
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Well said. I don't think there's a poster on here who hasn't made a mistake with a horse at some point, but it's how we recognise our own culpability and work to change things that makes us better horsewomen/men.


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## AdorableAlice (29 November 2016)

I am possibly not best placed to comment on this one, I have been criticised (not on HHo) for taking my pair of young horses too slowly.  They both turned 5 this summer and were broken in the summer of 2015.

However, I am a great believer in the adage of 'less they do before they are 5, the more they will do after they are 15.  I also think the promotion of young horse classes has facilitated the pushing of 4 and 5 year olds.  A quick google will bring up lots of 4 year old competition bred horses jumping metre tracks and 5 year olds jumping 1.10 tracks.  No doubt some are more than capable, many are not and all will not be mentally or physically mature.

I cannot compare mine to quality competition horses, but both of mine matured so much mentally as they hit 5 and became so much more able to concentrate, learn and perhaps most importantly, seem to enjoy their lives more especially the very nervous one.

I learnt something from the nervous horse yesterday.  He was fully clipped for the first time in his life.  I had done bits of him to try to get him to cope with the clippers which were a great source of stress for him, yesterday I paid a pro to do him.  He coped reasonably well although it took a while to get him done as he needed breaks.  After his wash and being presented with his very own first new rug, he went straight to bed and slept all afternoon.  The whole experience had tired him out mentally.

I guess how quickly we produce horses is all geared at the end result be it sold for a good price, kept as a life long friend or made a mess of.  Some horses land on their feet and find themselves well educated and equipped for a useful life, some don't and face who knows what.


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## tristar (29 November 2016)

i agree with the fact that we all  made mistakes, big ones and small ones, and after, sat down and almost cried when realizing that the mistake was bought on by our own lack of thought in the approach to showing a horse what we wanted, i know i have.

i hope op will understand that she is not alone and that everyone wants them to do well, its just that it requires so much effort and sheer tact with a youngster, and no one wants op to fail or her horse to go back to his stable unhappy and confused.


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## Velcrobum (29 November 2016)

OP seems to have flounced off. Has not been on the forum since the snippy reply yesterday at 10.15ish.


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## Red-1 (29 November 2016)

I don't think OP is necessarily a troll. I do think that when someone takes on a project that is a stretch for them, then it can become about them instead of being about the horse.

OP was more or less berating themselves for not being strong/bold/confident/whatever enough, and this is what I see a lot of people do.

OP, my advice would be t trust yourself more, and if you feel something is not right, such as you did not feel it was right to go canter over the "cottage" again, then do not do it. 

Some people can get by on bravado. Some people genuinely have good enough timing to achieve what you cannot. But, you are you, and your horse is honest. That is what horses are, honest. He is explaining that with you, right now, he can't cope with what was asked. 

Something needs to change.


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## Sukistokes2 (30 November 2016)

I think the horse world is divided in to those who blame their horses and those who blame themselves. It is so much easier to blame the dumb animal, esp when everyone around you says that what you should do. So to go against the mould and really look to yourself and say "what am I doing wrong, what can I do to make things better" must be a hard step. If this person is really genuine I hope that a tiny crack has opened, that they might take on board the idea, that what we do affects our horses. They idea that horses are not out to be naughty is difficult to stomach if you do not want to take any responsibility but is one you need to consider when working with youngsters. Also so many people seem to be in such a hurry with young horses these days, no time to grow and develop and no time to assimilate their lessons. So sad that someone would label there own horse in such a negative way. I thought most people have horses because they are passionate about them or their sport.


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## onemoretime (2 December 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			I am possibly not best placed to comment on this one, I have been criticised (not on HHo) for taking my pair of young horses too slowly.  They both turned 5 this summer and were broken in the summer of 2015.

However, I am a great believer in the adage of 'less they do before they are 5, the more they will do after they are 15.  I also think the promotion of young horse classes has facilitated the pushing of 4 and 5 year olds.  A quick google will bring up lots of 4 year old competition bred horses jumping metre tracks and 5 year olds jumping 1.10 tracks.  No doubt some are more than capable, many are not and all will not be mentally or physically mature.

I cannot compare mine to quality competition horses, but both of mine matured so much mentally as they hit 5 and became so much more able to concentrate, learn and perhaps most importantly, seem to enjoy their lives more especially the very nervous one.

I learnt something from the nervous horse yesterday.  He was fully clipped for the first time in his life.  I had done bits of him to try to get him to cope with the clippers which were a great source of stress for him, yesterday I paid a pro to do him.  He coped reasonably well although it took a while to get him done as he needed breaks.  After his wash and being presented with his very own first new rug, he went straight to bed and slept all afternoon.  The whole experience had tired him out mentally.

I guess how quickly we produce horses is all geared at the end result be it sold for a good price, kept as a life long friend or made a mess of.  Some horses land on their feet and find themselves well educated and equipped for a useful life, some don't and face who knows what.
		
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  This is so very true AA and often the reason why its so hard to find a suitable young horse that has not been over done when you are out looking for one.


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## TBmum (2 December 2016)

I am definitely no expert on this subject, but if it were my 4 year old I probably would have taken it for a canter round the field and let it "play" in the water, maybe canter around a few jumps and if there was any suggestion of spookiness or fear of anything made a mental note to take him/her that way next time I was out in the field to get them used to them and get off and go and sit on a jump that was particularly scary to prove it was fine.  But then I like to think I have a bond with my horses and with my Mare especially we take strength and confidence from each other, luckily our fears and confidence issues are different.

I would suggest lots and lots of ground work if you've only had the horse for 3 months and really get to know each other.

My horse's idea of a treat would be a mooch in hand round the cross country course so she could eat any long grass around the jumps! lol

We have all made mistakes, it's not the mistakes you make it's how you handle them and learn from them that matters!


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## TeamChaser (2 December 2016)

Yup, another one who has got it all wrong very recently, difference being I didn't just bash on regardless and try and bully my horse. Sure fire route to a nappy, unhappy horse.

Bought lovely 7 yr old in August who has done a bit of eventing up to BE100 but is pretty green still. Irish and bit slow to mature! Very bold and scopey, if a bit opinionated at times! I decided to chuck him in to the Grafton intermediate as lead horse as his first go at team chasing ... what an absolute knob! Atmosphere completely overwhelmed him and approaching the nearly 4ft hedge at 3 got distracted by the spectators ran down the big expanse of hedge and popped over the wing into the crowd. I didn't attempt to get him over hedge, we hacked quietly back to box once he'd calmed down so at least hopefully the experience hasn't upset him. Don't know what posessed me, he deserved better. Will now take the sensible approach I should of in the first place

OP - listen to your horse or risk ruining him for good


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## SusieT (3 December 2016)

Four year olds don't push boundaries if they are brought on in a sympathetic way.
Four year olds who learn that the answer to them syaing 'no or 'not sure' is someone getting after them quickly learn to be trunculant teenagers who fight back sooner to avoid worse punishment - so I suspect you need to be more forgiving, get a proper person (not an osteopath... ) i.e vet + qualified physio to look at the horse if he is really badly behaving and consider how to actually train a living animal - one who requires beating isn't going to learn anything other than that life is crap and you need to fight it


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## AdorableAlice (3 December 2016)

SusieT said:



			Four year olds don't push boundaries if they are brought on in a sympathetic way.
Four year olds who learn that the answer to them syaing 'no or 'not sure' is someone getting after them quickly learn to be trunculant teenagers who fight back sooner to avoid worse punishment - so I suspect you need to be more forgiving, get a proper person (not an osteopath... ) i.e vet + qualified physio to look at the horse if he is really badly behaving and consider how to actually train a living animal - one who requires beating isn't going to learn anything other than that life is crap and you need to fight it
		
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Where is the enormous LIKE button.

There is nothing more satisfying than rearing, training and making a young horse.  Watching them learn and absorb lessons and experiences, watching them gain confidence in you and then themselves.  Of course every horse will have moments that need correction.  I am the first to advocate the carrying of my famous blue pipe and have used it on occasion to remind 17 hands of heavyweight that my space is just that - mine.

Fair and consistent training makes horses respectful and easy, never expect a horse to understand anything you have not carefully and incrementally taught him.  Most are bright and want to please you not fight with you.


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Where is the enormous LIKE button.

There is nothing more satisfying than rearing, training and making a young horse.  Watching them learn and absorb lessons and experiences, watching them gain confidence in you and then themselves.  Of course every horse will have moments that need correction.  I am the first to advocate the carrying of my famous blue pipe and have used it on occasion to remind 17 hands of heavyweight that my space is just that - mine.

Fair and consistent training makes horses respectful and easy, never expect a horse to understand anything you have not carefully and incrementally taught him.  Most are bright and want to please you not fight with you.
		
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This is so true .
I bought H as a broken six months five year old in that time he had learnt a lot that it would have been better he hadn't .
He was 16.3 of big boned weak stroppy but scared bordering on angry ID .
He's now nine looks a picture he's the sweetest kindest horse who knows his job and will field master one day and bumble about the next with MrGS .
I smile every time I see him at the hounds and it's been the best fun turning him round ( -although the broncing when frightened was not pleasant ) but horsesare the best fun when it's about the journey about developing them to be the best they can .


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