# Tail docking info please



## Slightlyconfused (15 December 2015)

Can you guys show me where it's illegal to tail dock please? 

Someone I know wants a cocker pup next year and was planning on docking it's tail just because that's what they have always done. Hasn't had a dog for quite a few years.

I told them it's illegal unless the vet surgeon knows that the dog it's going to be worked and has evidence. They seem to think they can just say "Oh year dog is going to be a gun dog" and vet will lop tail off. 

Any and all info will be appreciated.


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## spacefaer (15 December 2015)

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gundogs/tests-and-trials/tail-docking-key-facts-you-need-to-know-9672

http://www.cdb.org/awa/

These tell you everything you need to know - the easiest thing to do is buy a pup that has already been docked. The purchasers won't be able to do it as it has to be done within 5 days of birth.


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## Slightlyconfused (15 December 2015)

Thank you.


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## Copperpot (16 December 2015)

Make sure you speak to your vet too. A few around here won't dock even legally, you need to make sure yours will.


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## blackcob (16 December 2015)

He'll need to buy a puppy that is already docked as it has to be done before five days of age. The breeder may struggle to find a vet to do it, of a practice of 20+ vets we've only got one who will dock, the BVA is certainly opposed to it. 

Pup should come with a certificate and will need to be microchipped by 12 weeks. 

The evidence needed is fairly lax, a gun licence or letter of recommendation from a gamekeeper or landowner is usually sufficient.


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## FinnishLapphund (16 December 2015)

In general, I think that there can be/are a difference in energy levels between Cockers bred to be good show dogs/pets, and Cockers bred for hunting. So I hope they don't stare themselves blind on tail lenght.


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## Thistle (16 December 2015)

Also tails are docked much longer than they used to be, usually at between 1/2 and 2/3 of original length.

A docked tail dog can be KC reg and can be shown, but can't be shown at a dog show where the public pay an entrance fee, thus effectively banning many true working bred dogs from Crufts.

I have seen some horrific spaniel tail injuries and am pleased that the breeder of my boy had the pups docked at 3 days. He has about half his tail, which is brown with a white tip, so attractively marked. He wags it all the time when working, considering his job is to work in thick cover it could get really trashed.


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## Copperpot (16 December 2015)

I had to call a fair few vets to get a litter of terriers done. Found one in the end. I had a letter from the local gamekeeper. Had them done at 3 days old.


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## Slightlyconfused (17 December 2015)

Copperpot said:



			Make sure you speak to your vet too. A few around here won't dock even legally, you need to make sure yours will.
		
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I don't want them docked. It's someone I know who thinks that he can buy a pup and go get it docked. He doesn't work them he just thinks cocker look better with tail docked :/ 

Most working dog breeders I know won't sell to non working homes so he is going to struggle finding one.


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## blackcob (17 December 2015)

Oh dear, it really doesn't work like that! After five days of age it's amputation, not docking, and would only be done as a last resort for persistent tail injury. Completely illegal for cosmetic purposes (as it should be, it's barbaric)


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## Alec Swan (17 December 2015)

Thistle said:



			Also tails are docked much longer than they used to be, usually at between 1/2 and 2/3 of original length.

A docked tail dog can be KC reg and can be shown, but can't be shown at a dog show where the public pay an entrance fee, thus effectively banning many true working bred dogs from Crufts.

I have seen some horrific spaniel tail injuries and am pleased that the breeder of my boy had the pups docked at 3 days. He has about half his tail, which is brown with a white tip, so attractively marked. He wags it all the time when working, considering his job is to work in thick cover it could get really trashed.
		
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In the '70s,  I used to dock the tails of Springers leaving about 2/5ths of the tail.  Today it's fashionable to leave 3/5ths.  Whilst we would prefer to leave a white tip,  the longer tails seem to prevent the dog from 'expressing' itself,  in my view.  

The KC Rulings?  Lunacy and pandering to those who really do cuddle bunnies.  Just why those who are precious should receive such treatment,  is beyond me.  It's my opinion that the KC are not fit for purpose,  and in any shape or form.

I knew of a Great Dane which wagged its tail incessantly,  admittedly it lived in a stable,  and after four separate ops where the vet removed ever more of its tail,  eventually it was pts,  because it refused to heal.  I'm NOT suggesting that GDs should be docked,  far from it,  but those dogs with a tail action which tends to be exaggerated,  all so often spaniels,  should be docked,  properly and at birth.

Many of the 'other' breeds,  Rotts,  Dobermans and Boxers for instance,  actually look better with a full tail,  in my view.  Docking such breeds is no more than vanity and it serves no useful purpose.

Alec.


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## Clodagh (17 December 2015)

I think dogs looks much better with docked tails, Boxers and rotties with great big curly whips over their backs look awful, IMO. Still, it isn't the dogs fault and I expect breeders will breed for better tails now. Mind you I like the look of cropped ears too, not that I would ever condone it or want to have it done but it does look impressive.
Spaniels in the field need docked tails, pet ones don't but I am sure the OP's friend could find a working cocker that has already been done.


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## chillipup (17 December 2015)

Clodagh said:



			I think dogs looks much better with docked tails, Boxers and rotties with great big curly whips over their backs look awful, IMO. Still, it isn't the dogs fault and I expect breeders will breed for better tails now. Mind you I like the look of cropped ears too, not that I would ever condone it or want to have it done but it does look impressive.
Spaniels in the field need docked tails, pet ones don't but I am sure the OP's friend could find a working cocker that has already been done.
		
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Just curious.....in what way do you think cropped ears look impressive?


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## Clodagh (17 December 2015)

Hard to explain, but when I lived in Australia I hung out with bikers and they had a couple of dobermann at the clubhouse with cropped ears. They looked good. I reiterate I am not a fan of the process, just the end result.


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## littletrotter (17 December 2015)

I have known several working spaniels with whole tails who never had any trouble their whole working career, not to mention Labs, who aren't docked anyway, so to me it's a cruel waste of time.  Ears too, which i think looks horrible.

OTOH some people seem to genuinely love humans with faces full of bits of metal, or completely tattooed faces and bodies, and even the whites of the eyes tattooed!  It takes all sorts.


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## SusieT (17 December 2015)

tail docking is not done because dogs have an expressive tail ... 
it is unethical - much more ethical to dock any that require it (which will be the minority if dogs are bred with tails in mind) under anaesthetic with appropriate pain control (and maybe neuter them at the same time....)
Large breed dogs living in areas where they constantly bang their tails is a sign that the accomodation is too small not that the tail needs removed - although once injured they often do need removed.


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## chillipup (17 December 2015)

spacefaer said:



http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gundogs/tests-and-trials/tail-docking-key-facts-you-need-to-know-9672

http://www.cdb.org/awa/

These tell you everything you need to know - the easiest thing to do is buy a pup that has already been docked. The purchasers won't be able to do it as it has to be done within 5 days of birth.
		
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blackcob said:



			Oh dear, it really doesn't work like that! After five days of age it's amputation, not docking, and would only be done as a last resort for persistent tail injury. Completely illegal for cosmetic purposes (as it should be, it's barbaric)
		
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Spacefaer put up two links in the first reply to OP. It explains everything - clearly.

blackbob, docking and amputation is one and the same thing. It is still amputation whether it is carried out by the vet on a pup 5 days or under, albeit without using any anesthetic or an older pup/dog, using anesthetic. 'Docking' is merely a colloquialism and perhaps just sounds better than 'amputation', to many.


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## blackcob (17 December 2015)

I'm aware, Chillipup, but I think it's useful to distinguish between legal docking of puppies and later elective procedures on adult dogs.


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## {97702} (17 December 2015)

Clodagh said:



			I think dogs looks much better with docked tails, Boxers and rotties with great big curly whips over their backs look awful, IMO. Still, it isn't the dogs fault and I expect breeders will breed for better tails now. Mind you I like the look of cropped ears too, not that I would ever condone it or want to have it done but it does look impressive.
Spaniels in the field need docked tails, pet ones don't but I am sure the OP's friend could find a working cocker that has already been done.
		
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Oddly enough I agree totally about docked tails - I loathe seeing dogs like boxers and rotties with long tails, they look just awful and having seen a litter of puppies being docked I know full well how much effect it has on them - but I hate the look of cropped ears!


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## chillipup (17 December 2015)

Lévrier;13116338 said:
			
		


			Oddly enough I agree totally about docked tails - I loathe seeing dogs like boxers and rotties with long tails, they look just awful and having seen a litter of puppies being docked I know full well how much effect it has on them - but I hate the look of cropped ears!
		
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I think it's because we have been so used to seeing all these breeds with docked tails, for so many years that sadly, it became accepted as the norm, to some. Seeing these dogs now, with their tails intact, precisely how they should have always looked, is perhaps now difficult to accept. Thank heavens, the ridiculous decision to start amputating tails to be 'fashionable' and permitting such an unnecessary and unethical practice to take place, is in the main part, well behind us. 

Let's not forget, the tail is an extension of the spine. It is there for many reasons. I for one think all dogs look great with their original length tails and find it lovely to see.


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## littletrotter (18 December 2015)

Lévrier;13116338 said:
			
		


			Oddly enough I agree totally about docked tails - I loathe seeing dogs like boxers and rotties with long tails, they look just awful and having seen a litter of puppies being docked *I know full well how much effect it has on them* - but I hate the look of cropped ears!
		
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Well what effect does it have?

I had an interesting, if hair-raising, chat with an american woman once who had just had her baby circumcised.  Her hospital did it without anaesthetic when the baby was 24 hours old.  They strapped him to a sort of board, they velcro on, you can google to see how they look.  The baby apparently screamed blue murder when they strapped him in but as soon as the started to tear the foreskin from the glans to fit the plastibell (it's a sort of clamp they use to remove the foreskin over a few days by cutting off the blood flow - like ringing lambs tails) she said he went completely silent and then appeared to fall asleep.  He had definitely had no pain relief as she signed his consent form.  In her view the procedure is not painful and afterwards he slept for hours longer and it was all great.  She actually complained that when the plastibell fell off four days later he started screaming and wanting to feed all the time again.

In my view it is obviously immensely painful to tear the foreskin from the glans (in newborns it is joined like the nail is to the nailbed) and then apply a clamp which prevents bloodflow to it to kill the tissue.  No adult man, or indeed speaking-age child, would volunteer for that procedure with no pain relief.  I suspect the silence and sleep was a shock response which would be most likely to prevent further harm from a predator - a useful mechanism for an injured and helpless human newborn - screaming would only attract more attention.  They have done some studies and the silent sleeping babies stress hormones are sky high - they are very very distressed and in severe pain even if they aren't showing it.  As a result circumcision and especially without anaesthetic, is thankfully beginning to die out.  So i'm afraid i look more to common sense than basic observation when it comes to that sort of thing.


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## minesadouble (18 December 2015)

I'm not sure I subscribe to the safety mechanism explanation, all 3 of my newborns screamed like demons when they had the heel prick!


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## Clodagh (18 December 2015)

Littletrotter, have you ever docked a litter? Or seen it done? It is awful, and most people who watched it would never watch or do it again. They don't just fall asleep, although they do settle again fairly soon when back with the bitch.


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## littletrotter (18 December 2015)

Clodagh said:



			Littletrotter, have you ever docked a litter? Or seen it done? It is awful, and most people who watched it would never watch or do it again. They don't just fall asleep, although they do settle again fairly soon when back with the bitch.
		
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No, that's why i asked.  I personally think animals with bits chopped off look horrible and was thrilled when they banned it.  My point was merely that however happy/unhappy a creature being injured might look it's better to think rationally about the injury than rely on observation.


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## littletrotter (18 December 2015)

minesadouble said:



			I'm not sure I subscribe to the safety mechanism explanation, all 3 of my newborns screamed like demons when they had the heel prick!
		
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So did mine.  But a heel prick is a minor injury which summoning the caregiver would be the best response for.  Circumcision is a mortal injury (even in modern hospitals there are babies who bleed to death or die of sepsis after it, though luckily very rarely), which would assume the caregiver was unavailable since all traditional pre-industrial human societies keep their infants with them at all times.  Have you never read of babies buries in rubble during earthquakes, who survive by essentially shutting down and not even crying until a rescuer actually touches them?


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## {97702} (18 December 2015)

littletrotter said:



			Well what effect does it have?
		
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The puppies squeaked for a few minutes, then piled themselves into a little heap (obviously they were in a basket without mum around) and fell asleep.  They were boxers


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## {97702} (18 December 2015)

Clodagh said:



			Littletrotter, have you ever docked a litter? Or seen it done? It is awful, and most people who watched it would never watch or do it again. They don't just fall asleep, although they do settle again fairly soon when back with the bitch.
		
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The litter I saw being done did just fall asleep - I think an awful lot depends on the skill of the individual doing the job, same as taking dew claws off baby puppies


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## Alec Swan (18 December 2015)

Clodagh said:



			Littletrotter, have you ever docked a litter? Or seen it done? It is awful, and most people who watched it would never watch or do it again. They don't just fall asleep, although they do settle again fairly soon when back with the bitch.
		
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Post docking,  the puppies are in shock,  but it's really no different from when their damn severs the umbilical chord.  Most dogs,  when they're distressed will turn to 'sleep'.  Think about it;  how many dogs when faced with long car journeys,  fall asleep?  Many,  I'd suggest.  Sleep shuts out all those influences which dogs don't enjoy.

Alec.


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## Clodagh (18 December 2015)

I have seen a litter of dobes done, years ago. I agree the trauma was over quickly but it was still horrible. I also think it is worse now they have to go to the vets and it takes much longer, at least when it was done at home they were chilled right up until, when they go to the vets the bitch gets stressed, IMO, which transfers worry to the pups. I know they soon get over it but it is still horrible.
And really, it must hurt like hell!


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## SusieT (18 December 2015)

cutting the umbilical cord is completely different and shows the level of ignorance in the pro-docking world...
shock is a bad thing - mammals who are in shock and sleeping are not healthy mammals.


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## SusieT (18 December 2015)

x..


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## Alec Swan (18 December 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. .  Most dogs,  when they're distressed will turn to 'sleep'.  &#8230;&#8230;.. .  Sleep shuts out all those influences which dogs don't enjoy.

Alec.
		
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SusieT said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..  - mammals who are in shock and sleeping are not healthy mammals.
		
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Assuming that you're referring to my post,  where did I imply any suggestion as to 'health'?

Alec.


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## chillipup (19 December 2015)

Clodagh said:



			I have seen a litter of dobes done, years ago. I agree the trauma was over quickly but it was still horrible. I also think it is worse now they have to go to the vets and it takes much longer, at least when it was done at home they were chilled right up until, when they go to the vets the bitch gets stressed, IMO, which transfers worry to the pups. I know they soon get over it but it is still horrible.
And really, it must hurt like hell!
		
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There is nothing (other than the owners concern for money) to prevent a vet attending a home to amputate pups tails. Thank heavens it is now at least a qualified vet doing it, rather than joe bloggs just taking a pair of scissors or pen knife to a pup's tail and leaving it raw.


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## MurphysMinder (19 December 2015)

I've only once been involved with docking a pup, a JRT  I admit I didnt like the idea and left the room for the actual act of docking, but there was just one squeak and when I went back in (a minute later) the pup was feeding off mum  I have seen pups have hind dew claws removed quite a few years ago and again there was a squeak and then they were back feeding  off mum


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## {97702} (19 December 2015)

chillipup said:



			There is nothing (other than the owners concern for money) to prevent a vet attending a home to amputate pups tails. Thank heavens it is now at least a qualified vet doing it, rather than joe bloggs just taking a pair of scissors or pen knife to a pup's tail and leaving it raw.
		
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I would never EVER suggest anyone other than a qualified vet doing it - hence my comment above that the experience can be different depending on the expertise of the person doing it?  I could explain further but I think it would offend people


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## twiggy2 (19 December 2015)

minesadouble said:



			I'm not sure I subscribe to the safety mechanism explanation, all 3 of my newborns screamed like demons when they had the heel prick!
		
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not exactly in the same league is it really?

foreskin torn off verses heel prick?

I know which one grown men would opt for given a choice between the 2


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## twiggy2 (19 December 2015)

dew claw removal can vary immensely-I don't see how it can be compared to docking. some dew claws are attached by bone and soft tissue and some are barely attached at all with just skin holding them on.
I know three vets that follow the hounds and shoot etc etc and non of the three will dock puppies as a routine thing (even before the legalities changed) they will only dock if and when a medical reasons means it is needed for the welfare of the animal.


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## minesadouble (19 December 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			not exactly in the same league is it really?

foreskin torn off verses heel prick?

I know which one grown men would opt for given a choice between the 2
		
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I was not in any way comparing the two procedures, merely making the point if a newborn mammal keeps quiet in response to pain as a form of defence then surely a newborn would respond to any level of pain with that same safety mechanism.


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## Alec Swan (19 December 2015)

Tail-docking is a subject which generally splits all those with an interest in dogs,  with few sitting on the fence,  it seems!  Well I'm one of those few,  and have a foot in both camps.  I too wonder how right it is to simply dock a puppy's tail because of simple vanity.  I agree that many of the previously docked breeds were treated as they were through highly doubtful ethics as to the breed.  Dobermans for instance were apparently docked to prevent a human assailant from having a handle to take hold of.  OK,  that's what I've been told,  and it may be piffle.  It would be a dubious justification if we've ever watched a Dobe at full tilt and working.  Most would consider that the greatest threat came from the front end,  and it would be unlikely that any 'assailant' would ever get to the rear end of a dog!

Most of those previously docked Dobes also,  it seemed to me,  had the tail removed in its entirety,  which raises an interesting point.  Previously someone raised the point that a dog's tail is an extension of the animal's spine,  and so it is.  I believe that the shorter the docked tail so the more invasive the operation.

We don't,  for obvious reasons,  dock the tails of any hounds,  and that's because those which have been bred for coursing,  need their tail to achieve balance whilst they work.  Terriers?  As previously,  docking achieves nothing,  in my view,  and it's strange how the Border Terrier has a relatively short tail anyway!

The gun dog breeds?  One of my Ag Landlords has an undocked GSP and to my eye there is precious little difference between his dog and an English Pointer.  Perhaps the GSP has a slightly heavier frame,  head and ears,  perhaps a little more 'course' too,  but that would be about it.  The dog in question really suits a full tail.

The question,  for me anyway,  arises with the spaniel breeds,  and I'd maintain that docking is vital.  Not just because of any apparent 'appearance',  or for that matter the fact that many undocked dogs lead lives of torment with the tips of tails being injured,  but more because docked and hard-going dogs are able,  despite contradiction,  to express themselves and move in a more stylish,  efficient and energy saving manner,  than their brothers who weren't relieved of a short portion of their tails,  at birth.  No spaniel with a full tail can be as efficient or move and work,  as a dog which has been correctly docked.

Cropped ears?  Yeah,  I suppose that the look they part,  though the practice serves no purpose,  especially with the American Bull breeds which only seem to have their ugliness accentuated with no ears! 

Alec.


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## Clodagh (19 December 2015)

Alec, as with an awful lot of things I am a fence sitter. I hate the procedure. (And as an aside I don't think a breeder who self docked when it was legal would be worse at it than a vet who hardly ever does it - rather like a vet being less efficient than a knackerman at shooting a horse).
I prefer the end result on a spaniel, and terriers look much better docked, IMO.
My young lab splits the end of her tail every shoot day and I see that coming off eventually, it takes forever to heal and is only just better by the next day out.


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## twiggy2 (19 December 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Tail-docking is a subject which generally splits all those with an interest in dogs,  with few sitting on the fence,  it seems!  Well I'm one of those few,  and have a foot in both camps.  I too wonder how right it is to simply dock a puppy's tail because of simple vanity.  I agree that many of the previously docked breeds were treated as they were through highly doubtful ethics as to the breed.  Dobermans for instance were apparently docked to prevent a human assailant from having a handle to take hold of.  OK,  that's what I've been told,  and it may be piffle.  It would be a dubious justification if we've ever watched a Dobe at full tilt and working.  Most would consider that the greatest threat came from the front end,  and it would be unlikely that any 'assailant' would ever get to the rear end of a dog!

Most of those previously docked Dobes also,  it seemed to me,  had the tail removed in its entirety,  which raises an interesting point.  Previously someone raised the point that a dog's tail is an extension of the animal's spine,  and so it is.  I believe that the shorter the docked tail so the more invasive the operation.

We don't,  for obvious reasons,  dock the tails of any hounds,  and that's because those which have been bred for coursing,  need their tail to achieve balance whilst they work.  Terriers?  As previously,  docking achieves nothing,  in my view,  and it's strange how the Border Terrier has a relatively short tail anyway!

The gun dog breeds?  One of my Ag Landlords has an undocked GSP and to my eye there is precious little difference between his dog and an English Pointer.  Perhaps the GSP has a slightly heavier frame,  head and ears,  perhaps a little more 'course' too,  but that would be about it.  The dog in question really suits a full tail.

The question,  for me anyway,  arises with the spaniel breeds,  and I'd maintain that docking is vital.  Not just because of any apparent 'appearance',  or for that matter the fact that many undocked dogs lead lives of torment with the tips of tails being injured,  but more because docked and hard-going dogs are able,  despite contradiction,  to express themselves and move in a more stylish,  efficient and energy saving manner,  than their brothers who weren't relieved of a short portion of their tails,  at birth.  No spaniel with a full tail can be as efficient or move and work,  as a dog which has been correctly docked.

Cropped ears?  Yeah,  I suppose that the look they part,  though the practice serves no purpose,  especially with the American Bull breeds which only seem to have their ugliness accentuated with no ears! 

Alec.
		
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I don't see how a docked spaniel is more efficient/moves better or expresses itself better


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## Alec Swan (19 December 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			I don't see how a docked spaniel is more efficient/moves better or expresses itself better
		
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Some can appreciate the differences,  whilst others can't.  I have neither understanding nor appreciation of ballet,  so I have some sympathy with you in that you fail to see.  I can assure you that the differences are very real.

Alec.


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## twiggy2 (19 December 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Some can appreciate the differences,  whilst others can't.  I have neither understanding nor appreciation of ballet,  so I have some sympathy with you in that you fail to see.  I can assure you that the differences are very real.

Alec.
		
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smoke and mirrors never support a point of view


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## Alec Swan (19 December 2015)

Smoke and mirrors is a metaphor for a deceptive, fraudulent or insubstantial explanation or description. The source of the name is based on magicians' illusions, &#8230; (wiki).

If as you say,  and demonstrate,  that you're unable to 'see' what others can,  then attempting to ridicule those who can is no argument.  I can neither explain nor show to you the differences between docked and un-docked spaniels.  I'd suggest that you spend time observing and then perhaps you may have an understanding.  I don't appreciate the nuances of equine dressage,  and for that reason I don't judge.  I do however have a modest understanding of spaniels so perhaps see what you may miss.

Alec.


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## Copperpot (20 December 2015)

My dobie's tail is about the same length as the terriers. So probably docked too long for her breed. I really dislike dobie's with tails. Although unlike spaniels and terriers there is no actual reason to dock a dobie's tail other than looks. And I've seen a litter docked. Tbh my horse showed more discomfort when he was freeze marked.


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## Toffee44 (22 December 2015)

Putting my 8year old spaniel x lab through amputation was horrible. He is very spaniel in action and temperment. It took forever to heal(whole month) 48hrs of being upset from GA. And Teal being Teal reacted to the stitches which prolonged the healing. 

Had it done due to happy tail getting to the point the scar tissue could be pulled apart by my hands and continuously was reopening and re bandaged.  

Have to say has put me off ever having a spaniel with a full tail.


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## Alec Swan (22 December 2015)

Toffee44 said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Had it done due to happy tail getting to the point the scar tissue could be pulled apart by my hands and continuously was reopening and re bandaged.  

Have to say has put me off ever having a spaniel with a full tail.
		
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Many spaniels, especially those which express themselves through an exuberant tail action have been pts,  because a full length tail has refused to heal when damaged.  All so often,  those dogs which have style and drive are those which are the most likely to suffer.  Just why late in life amputation should tend to have such catastrophic consequences and be such a trauma for the dog,  I've no idea.  Perhaps it's because it's the last 6-8" or so which produces the real impetus which causes such damage.  A few minutes of shock and discomfort performed within the first few days,  and to what isn't actually formed bone,  but more like cartilage,  is certainly the more humane path.

As you,  I will never own a spaniel with a full tail.

Alec.


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## Cinnamontoast (22 December 2015)

Can't compare lab and spaniel tails. Stand and look at a spaniel tail-it whirs round in a circle. Labs wag side to side. Labs tend to go round bushes, spaniels tend to go straight into cover.

 My oldest springer is docked, he is working stock straight from a working farm, it was expected that most would go to working homes. The youngsters aren't docked and I wish they were, the long tails are a ruddy liability and frequently injured and bleeding. Bear just jumps up and down in cover, straight through brambles. I'd never have full tails again.


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## blackcob (22 December 2015)

Only partly tongue in cheek here - maybe we should be breeding dogs with more suitable tails?! 

FWIW I used to be firmly on the fence, we live in a rural area and docked dogs are the norm, to the extent that I would probably have mustered up a defence if some townie type tried to claim docking was cruel. 

I changed my mind the day I first saw the procedure done and now regard anyone happy to cut bits off puppies without anaesthetic as a first class barsteward.


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## DD (22 December 2015)

my JRT is docked. I wish he wasnt. the breeders have all the pups docked by the vet. they just tell the vet they are to be working dogs. Most if not all are sold as pets. I asked the breeder why they are docked and he told me he doesnt think they look right with full tails!


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## chillipup (23 December 2015)

blackcob said:



			Only partly tongue in cheek here - maybe we should be breeding dogs with more suitable tails?!
		
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Funny you should say that bc, I was just wondering about the Old English Sheepdog ( aka Bob Tails) that used to be docked for generations. Then later on, apparently some pups were actually born without tails and their litter mates with tails and I understand this can still be the case in some litters. But how can this be? Is this fact? Any OES people on the forum?

I know we have bred both good and bad physical characteristics into and out of many breeds of dog over the generations, so could, no doubt, breed the Springer Spaniel with a shorter tail, using selective breeding and continually breeding shorter tailed Spaniels to shorter tailed Spaniels until we had created the desired length tail. But in the case of the OES how could a physical amputation like tail docking be inherited through a breed line? Does anyone have any answers?


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## blackcob (23 December 2015)

Quick response as I'm at work but Bruce Cattanach's bobtailed boxers make for an interesting read 

http://bobtailboxers.com/the-cross-corgi-ex-boxer


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## gunnergundog (23 December 2015)

chillipup said:



			Funny you should say that bc, I was just wondering about the Old English Sheepdog ( aka Bob Tails) that used to be docked for generations. Then later on, apparently some pups were actually born without tails and their litter mates with tails and I understand this can still be the case in some litters. But how can this be? Is this fact? Any OES people on the forum?

I know we have bred both good and bad physical characteristics into and out of many breeds of dog over the generations, so could, no doubt, breed the Springer Spaniel with a shorter tail, using selective breeding and continually breeding shorter tailed Spaniels to shorter tailed Spaniels until we had created the desired length tail. But in the case of the OES how could a physical amputation like tail docking be inherited through a breed line? Does anyone have any answers?
		
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With the Brittany Spaniel you can get both naturally bobbed and full tailed pups.


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## ester (23 December 2015)

chillipup said:



			Funny you should say that bc, I was just wondering about the Old English Sheepdog ( aka Bob Tails) that used to be docked for generations. Then later on, apparently some pups were actually born without tails and their litter mates with tails and I understand this can still be the case in some litters. But how can this be? Is this fact? Any OES people on the forum?

I know we have bred both good and bad physical characteristics into and out of many breeds of dog over the generations, so could, no doubt, breed the Springer Spaniel with a shorter tail, using selective breeding and continually breeding shorter tailed Spaniels to shorter tailed Spaniels until we had created the desired length tail. But in the case of the OES how could a physical amputation like tail docking be inherited through a breed line? Does anyone have any answers?
		
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What you can achieve through selected breeding can be limited by what the range already is in the population so you might not get a tail short enough. Unless a random mutation occurs (ie bobtail as in OES) which you can then breed on.


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## chillipup (23 December 2015)

blackcob said:



			Quick response as I'm at work but Bruce Cattanach's bobtailed boxers make for an interesting read 

http://bobtailboxers.com/the-cross-corgi-ex-boxer

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Well what an eye-opener.. thanks bc. I've not quite got through the whole report yet but I now know it's an inherited gene and that the Pembroke Welsh Corgi , the OES and thanks to gunnergundog, the Brittany Spaniel and the Swedish Vallhund can all produce naturally bob-tailed pups. I shall be doing my own further investigations..via google in due course. Thanks again, much appreciated.

PS not forgetting the Bob-tailed Boxer of course.


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## Toffee44 (23 December 2015)

You can see the end open-- stayed like that for a month (was wrapped) before me and vet decided it had to go. Its all very well re- dressing this injury but unfortuantely every time it gets damaged the scarring gets worse. 
And scareing isnt flexible. It got to the point that it wasn't just a small cut anymore it turned into an explosion-- i had blood on my ceiling once!! He had no hair left on end of tail. He isn't a working dog really. 2/3 times a year we pick up for farmers shoot here at home but thats it. Most trauma was done against walls/ crate/ and the washing machine door (had to move it in the end). 






The raw bit higher up was where he nibbled a dressing. 


Length now 









Re OES had a full tail one no problems with it. I believe the no tail was a mutation bred in? Same with the Manx Cat.


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## Alec Swan (23 December 2015)

blackcob said:



			.. regard anyone happy to cut bits off puppies without anaesthetic as a first class barsteward.
		
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Generally,  this branch of the forum is reasonably well mannered.  I wonder why you need to be quite so rude and to those with whom you disagree.  Your opinions of 'Docking' are yours,  and not shared by everyone.



blackcob said:



			Quick response as I'm at work but Bruce Cattanach's bobtailed boxers make for an interesting read 

http://bobtailboxers.com/the-cross-corgi-ex-boxer

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Dr. Cattanach has raised many interesting points.  It seems that he and I would agree,  in that our breeds have 'evolved',  but thanks to the KC,  there are breeds which because there is no acceptance of outcrossing,  has many breeds which are now stagnant.  Thankfully,  most of those breeds which are still bred for a work-purpose,  continue to evolve and progress.  Those which were originally intended for work,  but are now shadows of their former beings and are only used for the show ring,  are rather pathetic examples.  Strange that he should mention the Boxer as a breed,  and the example of the dog shown,  which compared with those dogs from the breed's homeland,  should be an embarrassment. 

Naturally 'Bob-tailed' dogs?  I don't really have much faith in his suppositions.  I'm quite prepared to be corrected,  but all of those dogs which are 'naturally' so,  have no tail,  *at all*.  The Boxer pup in Fig 3 (was it?),  had a tail which had been docked.  Those tails which are naturally shorter than one might expect,  drop away to a point (consider the Border Terrier).  Naturally (via birth) dogs with abnormally short or no tails,  do not come to an abrupt halt.  Even the end of tail hair hadn't had a chance to grow back! 

As for attempting to cross a Corgi with a Boxer,  I'm lost for words.  A doctorate Cattanachs may have,  but whether he and others of his learning actually ever really think before they print such tripe,  should have most doubting them.  There are interesting and valid points which the good doctor has made,  but otherwise,  the rest of his article contradicts his former points.

Alec.


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## blackcob (23 December 2015)

One rule for one and one for another, I see!


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## Alec Swan (23 December 2015)

ester said:



			What you can achieve through selected breeding can be limited by what the range already is in the population so you might not get a tail short enough. Unless a random mutation occurs (ie bobtail as in OES) which you can then breed on.
		
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Considering the naturally tail-missing OES,  there are also those sheepdogs (working collies) in Scotland and oddly perhaps,  mostly on the west Coast,  that are genuinely 'bob-tailed',  as in,  they have no tail,  at all and that's how they're born!  I'm not too sure what happens when both parents which are b-t are bred with each other,  but 'if' they are bred for this specific peculiarity,  it would be unlikely that the resultant offspring would be of much use for work,  the lack of tail being of an apparently greater importance than the parent's abilities.  It's a strange phenomena,  I agree! 

I wonder how humans became bob-tailed.

Alec.


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## maxapple (23 December 2015)

One of my JRT was docked as a puppy (I got her at 9 months old) She just has a tiny 1-2 inch stump which I don't like. She can't wag it really and it looks odd. My other dog is 2 years younger and has a full lovely tail. He look so much nicer with it and wags it none stop. 

I can see why working dogs may have tails docked to avoid injury - but it's wrong to do it for cosmetic reasons Or for fashion.


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## ester (24 December 2015)

What I don't understand is how do you pull a terrier out of a hole if it's tail is docked?


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## Alec Swan (24 December 2015)

ester said:



			What I don't understand is how do you pull a terrier out of a hole if it's tail is docked? 

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Tradition had it that when the tails of terriers were docked,  a guestemate was made as to the eventual length and it should fill the hand of a man.  Why it was thought that a docked tail would make life easier for the person dragging out the dog,  I haven't a clue because clearly it wouldn't.  Having dragged out a terrier or two,  the best way I've always found is to grab a back leg or two!

Terriers with full length tails do look a bit odd,  I think,  but then docking them is no more than fad or fashion and serves no real or practical purpose,  or none that I can see.  There yer go,  a foot in both camps! 

Alec.


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## Copperpot (25 December 2015)

My jrt is the only undocked terrier we have. He does a lot of bushing and his tail gets shredded and bleeds badly. So I wish he had of been. The other 2 docked ones don't get that issue. Terriers don't just go to ground &#128518;


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