# Feel like the worst person in the world - loaning



## Bav (4 December 2015)

Apologies for the essay but I'm upset and need to rant!
I've loaned the beast for 18 months with a view to buy. I was approached by his owners as they were unable to sell him and neither the mother or daughter would even ride him for me when trying. I made it clear from the start that I'd advertised just to loan but could buy but it would have to be after October this year as I was getting married. She was 100% happy with this. 
He's a big 17.2hh and very quirky. He can spook for Britain, particularly in the school when he feels he's done enough work. He can be funny about being behind whilst out on a hack. We pay £50+ for an ulcer supplement and specific ulcer feeds for him as he's prone. At the last show we went to he spent the entire time napping in a corner and threatening to stand up on his two back legs.
Don't get me wrong I really do love him and really do want to buy him so I looked at the current market and made them an offer. The price she wanted for him is double that!!! 

Feeling so frustrated, hindsight is a wonderful thing and I wish I had it in writing what she wanted for him, but considering I know what he's 'worth' on the insurance and how much they brought him for 18 months prior to me loaning and also that I had to buy his saddle off her at the beginning of this year I'm in shock. After a phonecall the other day and being told how unfair I am being, that it's the middle of winter and I've had him far longer then I should have and that they've bent over backwards for me (not too sure I understand what they mean by this.) 
The phonecall left me in tears. I'm being made to feel as though I've been a joy rider, which I haven't I've every intention to buy him and my own instructor has told me I was mad to offer as much as I did! 

At this point the temptation to look around at what I can get for my money this weekend and then give them a months notice is getting bigger. 
Am I being unreasonable? I hope not I really am the type of person that worries too much what other people think of me and I'd hate for them to think I'm mugging them off. 

I have some mars bars around somewhere for people to enjoy!


----------



## Michen (4 December 2015)

Poor you. I guess you have to decide whether you can call their bluff, give the notice, let them try and sell him at that price. Alternatively maybe you could have a couple of dealers do formal appraisals and valuations for him- that seems a logically fair way to do it. I did this for a mare over a court case and it cost me £40 per dealer. 

It's a horrid situation to be in. My friend was in similar when her loan horse failed the vetting but he meant so much to her she couldn't call their bluff even though the price was more than he was worth.


----------



## Illusion100 (4 December 2015)

Classic 'Puppy dog Sale'. 

Call them tomorrow and say you will be giving him back. Do not get drawn into ANY other conversation at this stage.


----------



## Leo Walker (4 December 2015)

Your not being unreasonable. I'm the person loaning horses out not the other way round, but I have loaned them as I want them happy and settled. The most recent loaned horse was gifted to his loaner after her sharing, then loaning him for a while. She did give me money towards his tack, but it wasnt anywhere near what I had paid, but it was a reasonable second hand price, and I only asked for that as my OH is getting a bit fed up of the money pit that is horses :lol: She was such a good loaner that I honestly think I would have paid her to have him! Hes very happy, hes very happy and thats priceless 

The other one I loaned out recently was a young green cob. I paid for 2 weeks of pro schooling at her yard with her employers before she took him on. We agreed a price as he stood, before the pro schooling. She was in her last year at uni and I agreed to have him back over the winter of her last year at uni. I dont have my own land, I was going to pay to livery him. It would have been worth it for the right home  She wasnt the right home and hes back with me and that fine. But I just wanted to point out that not everyone loaning horses out is a money grabbing moron, but it sounds like you are involved with one and that sucks!

I'd give notice and hope they came to their senses!


----------



## Goldenstar (4 December 2015)

Hindsight is always perfect .
However all is not lost and fortune often favours the bold .
Tell them you are returning the horse ASAP as you can't pay the price they want and see what happens .


----------



## Cinnamontoast (4 December 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			Classic 'Puppy dog Sale'. 

Call them tomorrow and say you will be giving him back. Do not get drawn into ANY other conversation at this stage.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly this. Be brave, don't get sidetracked or guilted into paying. Have a look at what you can get for the price they want.


----------



## Bav (4 December 2015)

Michen said:



			Alternatively maybe you could have a couple of dealers do formal appraisals and valuations for him- that seems a logically fair way to do it. I did this for a mare over a court case and it cost me £40 per dealer.
		
Click to expand...

What an excellent idea! I hadn't thought of that! Thankyou!

Thankyou for the replies, it's making me feel a bit better. I forgot to mention it's not like he's a youngster with 'potential' he'll be 13 next year and is an ex show jumper. Although he's not old, with the size of him and the way he's put together I'm not sure he's one of those that will keep going forever.


----------



## Illusion100 (4 December 2015)

Bav said:



			What an excellent idea! I hadn't thought of that! Thankyou!

Thankyou for the replies, it's making me feel a bit better. I forgot to mention it's not like he's a youngster with 'potential' he'll be 13 next year and is an ex show jumper. Although he's not old, with the size of him and the way he's put together I'm not sure he's one of those that will keep going forever.
		
Click to expand...

Hate to be a party pooper but I would advise against having him valued at this stage, it would display too much interest to the Owners and allow them to retain the upper hand.


----------



## Michen (4 December 2015)

Have him vetted as well OP.





Bav said:



			What an excellent idea! I hadn't thought of that! Thankyou!

Thankyou for the replies, it's making me feel a bit better. I forgot to mention it's not like he's a youngster with 'potential' he'll be 13 next year and is an ex show jumper. Although he's not old, with the size of him and the way he's put together I'm not sure he's one of those that will keep going forever.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Michen (4 December 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			Hate to be a party pooper but I would advise against having him valued at this stage, it would display too much interest to the Owners and allow them to retain the upper hand.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think so necessarily. Bare in mind that we only have the OP's version here which (OP I am sure it is accurate but you never know!) may be very different to the owners. They may genuinely believe he is worth more and it may keep things civil to get neutral professionals involved rather than "my riding instructor says" but "mine says" etc etc.


----------



## Illusion100 (4 December 2015)

Michen said:



			Have him vetted as well OP.
		
Click to expand...

No!!! 

This is not a good idea at this stage! 

Your advice is great Michen but not yet!


----------



## be positive (4 December 2015)

As I read it they are trying to get you to pay more for a quirky, ulcer prone 13 year old than they paid for him when he was 10, a horse that they were unable to sell 18 months ago, they were also scared to ride him, they seriously want you to pay to buy him, they should consider themselves lucky you offered anything as in reality without them paying for him to go to a sales livery yard they will probably be back to square one with a horse they cannot sell. 
Call their bluff but be prepared for them to be stupid and take him back.


----------



## Michen (4 December 2015)

No no I dont mean vet now, I mean if and when the sale price is agreed! Plenty wouldn't but an older ex showjumper although I wouldn't maybe expect to "pass" the vet you'd want to know that he wasn't totally crippled after flexions etc. 



Illusion100 said:



			No!!! 

This is not a good idea at this stage! 

Your advice is great Michen but not yet!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Illusion100 (5 December 2015)

Michen said:



			I don't think so necessarily. Bare in mind that we only have the OP's version here which (OP I am sure it is accurate but you never know!) may be very different to the owners. They may genuinely believe he is worth more and it may keep things civil to get neutral professionals involved rather than "my riding instructor says" but "mine says" etc etc.
		
Click to expand...

The owners want shot of the horse and are taking things too far.


----------



## Illusion100 (5 December 2015)

Michen said:



			No no I dont mean vet now, I mean if and when the sale price is agreed! Plenty wouldn't but an older ex showjumper although I wouldn't maybe expect to "pass" the vet you'd want to know that he wasn't totally crippled after flexions etc.
		
Click to expand...

Haha, ok!


----------



## Illusion100 (5 December 2015)

be positive said:



			As I read it they are trying to get you to pay more for a quirky, ulcer prone 13 year old than they paid for him when he was 10, a horse that they were unable to sell 18 months ago, they were also scared to ride him, they seriously want you to pay to buy him, they should consider themselves lucky you offered anything as in reality without them paying for him to go to a sales livery yard they will probably be back to square one with a horse they cannot sell. 
Call their bluff but be prepared for them to be stupid and take him back.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly.


----------



## Orca (5 December 2015)

OP, you aren't being unreasonable and you aren't mugging anyone off! You've made an offer, they've refused, you move on. If I were you, I think I'd return him asap and get stuck into the exciting world of new horsey possibilities. There are so many out there and if your instructor thinks you've offered over the odds for your loan horse, the chances are that you'll find someone perfect for you and healthy too for the same money.


----------



## Bav (5 December 2015)

I think you've all pretty much hit the nail on the head. We were all in shock at how much she wanted, I honestly thought she'd snap my hand off and be grateful he's well looked after and loved! I think I'm going to potter off and have a glorious half hour looking on some sales sites. I do love a good nose and what's up for sale in the local area. May as well look deeper into just what I can get for my money!


----------



## be positive (5 December 2015)

The problem with getting it vetted is that the insurers will need to know any findings, if the OP already has the horse insured in their name this may mean there will be exclusions that make buying the horse less viable at any price and everyone can lose out, I don't think I would vet in this case as it will be a risk and not necessarily a bargaining tool on the price if something degenerative shows up that requires treating. 
Cases such as this show why LVWTB need to be very clearly arranged, price agreed and vetting either before starting or not done if the horse can be insured, if done before starting if something does show it is either grounds to reduce the price or pull out, if you have a horse for 18 months and it went to you "sound" then fails a vetting it makes for a very difficult situation where the owner is potentially the greatest loser, worst case horse cannot be sold, insurance no longer covers as it is in the loaners name and big vets bill to treat the horse or pts.


----------



## Equi (5 December 2015)

Ill follow this with interest. I believe it is sort of the thread i will be posting in a year. I hope it works out for you.


----------



## brighteyes (5 December 2015)

Let us know, obviously.


----------



## swilliam (5 December 2015)

We were in this situation a few years ago - loaning a very large, very difficult horse that the owner wouldn't ride. They suddenly announceed that he was for sale, anf wanted several thousand for him. We thought we were doing the owners a favour - they were friends of ours. I pointed out that he was only rideable because my daughter had done so much work with him and was told that she had had the fun (!) of doing it. I  fairness he probably was wirth it to someone who could ride him, but I didn't have that much money. I persuaded them to wait until she'd finished her A levels - the exams had just started. Meanwhile a mutual friend asked who was going to ride him to show him off to prospective purchasers. Obviously my daughter wasn't going to volunteer. Once they realised that I would return him - he wasn't easy to handle either - they suddenly became willing to negogiate, and we got him for a third of what they originally wanted. He's since become a very expensive pet, but that's just one of those things with horses!


----------



## FfionWinnie (5 December 2015)

He sounds like a nightmare. Send him back and get something without these problems!  They should be paying you to take him.


----------



## ROMANY 1959 (5 December 2015)

I feel for you Op ... I loaned out big lad for 3 years, Loaner  was brill,so all was good for me..she paid half livery, then when she decided to go to uni I gifted him to her and the pair of them are doing well at uni, he went with her... Some owners just have £££ signs in their eyes, they don't appreciate the work you have put in to make it work.. I hope they see the way forward and it ends happily for you... X


----------



## Woolly Hat n Wellies (5 December 2015)

I can sympathise OP.

I went with my gelding's previous owner when she bought him, so I know exactly what she paid for him as a 13 year old happy hacker. I advised her to think carefully about him and go back and try him again, but she'd fallen in love and agreed to buy him the same day. She got him home and rode him a handful of times, but soon realised he was too strong and keen for a complete beginner. I ended up riding him, reschooling him, and looking after him, and agreed with her that he should be 'mine' - a sort of part loan/share arrangement, but she refused to set up a contract, saying we were friends, and he was mine to do as I liked with. So I got on with reschooling, had some success at very low level unaffiliated dressage and clear round jumping. The owner had said she'd never ride again, and I found the loan 'agreement' difficult as, with nothing written down, things I was and wasn't allowed to do kept being changed. I got a new job and saved like mad to buy him, having discussed this with the owner, who said 'well, you know what I paid for him.' When I made her a proper offer, she asked for three times what she'd paid for him the year before, and told me that was only because we were friends and she was doing me a favour. She said he was worth much more now because he'd done dressage and jumping (yes, unaf intro and 65cm clear round!). It felt like she'd slapped me in the face.

With the help of my mum, I did get him eventually, although it was still for more than he was really worth. I hope it ends happily for you, OP!


----------



## skint1 (5 December 2015)

As the owner of a quirky mare that went out on loan 3 times and was returned 3 times I will say that if any one of the good people who agreed to take her on loan had wanted to keep her they could've had her, for free!  She was a very talented jumper but it was a real struggle to get her concentrate and she could be extremely nappy, if someone could have got through to her they would have had an awesome horse and they would have deserved it.  Horse people are mad


----------



## Wheels (5 December 2015)

I really feel for you OP but in your position I would be looking at other horses for sale and viewing them if I found anything suitable in budget.

This horse sounds like a handful and although you love him you will love another just the same or potentially even more.

I would be returning him, not threatening to but actually putting him in the box and taking him to their yard then finding something suited to what I wanted to do, ie something I could take out to a comp and actually have a nice day


----------



## sarahann1 (5 December 2015)

If anything OP I think you're the one that's being mugged off here. 

They had a horse, from what you've said, which is quirky and has questionable conformation, that they could neither sell nor ride, you come along, loan horse, school horse on for 18mths, add value to him and now they want you to pay over the value YOU'VE added to him. 

Tell them to jog on!


----------



## peaceandquiet1 (5 December 2015)

Agree you should call their bluff, say you are only prepared to pay whatever, and if they take him away then look for a horse you can buy which might be less hassle.


----------



## zaminda (5 December 2015)

I would take him back. Its December, he is big and awkward and in all honesty not worth much if he is quirky. They will be begging you to take him for peanuts before long I suspect. I hate it when people do this, I have seen it far too many times.


----------



## Luci07 (5 December 2015)

Been in your shoes but I had a price agreed. Horse was beyond quirky and an insurance write off but I loved him. Owner whacked on an extra £1000 to the original price. I gave him back.


----------



## Vodkagirly (5 December 2015)

Why not start looking around for a horse that is in your budget and let the owners know that you are. You might find something you like more and if not you still have current horse on loan.


----------



## Bav (5 December 2015)

You guys have really helped. Honestly, have all of the mars bars I own (which I'm sad to admit is a vast pile after Wednesday's conversation with the owner)

Aaaannndddd...I'm going to view a horse in the morning. See just what I can get for my money!


----------



## chillipup (5 December 2015)

Good for you Bav, have fun.


----------



## Wheels (5 December 2015)

Go for it bav!! Update required after the viewing


----------



## MuddyMonster (5 December 2015)

Good luck - however it turns out


----------



## McFluff (5 December 2015)

Good luck with the viewing. what's for you won't go by you


----------



## milliepops (5 December 2015)

Good luck with the viewing   At least by having a look at what else is out there, you are taking control of the situation.
 I'm another who returned a loan horse in similar circumstances. Hurt like mad at the time, but it must have been fate because my horse of a lifetime fell into my lap shortly afterwards.


----------



## Leo Walker (5 December 2015)

Bav said:



			You guys have really helped. Honestly, have all of the mars bars I own (which I'm sad to admit is a vast pile after Wednesday's conversation with the owner)

Aaaannndddd...I'm going to view a horse in the morning. See just what I can get for my money!
		
Click to expand...

If your on Facebook and have them as friends I would be incessantly posting links to horses for sale and status updates about viewing potentials. 

There is a psychological phenomenon where you value what you own higher than exactly the same cheaper version that other people own. That is a terrible interpretation of the research, but it holds up time and time again for people selling horses! Verified by the huge amount of ads you see from people selling small, young green cobs and wanting a straight swap for a bigger bomproof version, or people with the 16hh ex racers they are terrified of, looking for smaller schoolmasters!


----------



## Sugar_and_Spice (6 December 2015)

I've nothing to add to advice already given except to say don't forget you have bought the saddle from them, so that is now yours to sell on and shouldn't be returned with the horse unless they pay you for it.


----------



## ester (6 December 2015)

TBH I wouldn't want to do them the favour of buying him off them after the way they have treated you when they had a horse that they wouldn't/couldn't ride! I would be giving notice and returning him, without saddle and telling them that he is all theirs to sell! 

I hope the viewing goes well. It does sound like you could get something more fun however much you love him anyway!


----------



## Bernster (6 December 2015)

Orca said:



			OP, you aren't being unreasonable and you aren't mugging anyone off! You've made an offer, they've refused, you move on. If I were you, I think I'd return him asap and get stuck into the exciting world of new horsey possibilities. There are so many out there and if your instructor thinks you've offered over the odds for your loan horse, the chances are that you'll find someone perfect for you and healthy too for the same money.
		
Click to expand...

Have to say I'd be inclined to do this too if it were me, unless you adore this horse and are well suited. And you get him at a good price.


----------



## Walrus (6 December 2015)

Good for you going to look at another one, if you stand back and look at this objectively (which is always hard when there is an emotional attachment) unless your budget is absolutely tiny you are looking at buying a big, quirky, older horse who you say yourself might not be the type that can continue in harder work for a long time. I would definitely look around a look at getting something without those issues, too many people try and play the hero and take on quirky horses but there is nothing wrong with having something straightforward!


----------



## Kacey88 (6 December 2015)

I hope the viewing goes well for you, I think all the advise is brilliant. If I were you I would take this opportunity to find something that really suits your needs. Get it fully vetted, try it out until you are absolute sure and then enjoy - that's what its supposed to be about! 

Can't wait to hear about the viewing.


----------



## Bav (7 December 2015)

Ok quick update for all of you lovely people!

I don't do mares. But my god this mare was something special. Totally fell in love, went like a dream just a genuine honest horse, so very straight forward and easy to get on, ride (I couldn't believe I managed to school In an arena without a single spook) jump and hack.
I had all my fingers and toes crossed until this evening.

So yes I feel I may have jumped the gun by viewing this horse as upon contacting the loan horses' owner she is swearing by 3 months notice. Yes, I admit I wasn't aware it was 3 months! Never was on any others and seriously seriously more fool me for not double checking. However, the contract ends December 31st, so it's my understanding that once the contract has ended I'm under no obligation?


----------



## 9tails (7 December 2015)

Three months?  Does your contract actually say three months?  I think you can use the rental market on this one and ensure the owner knows that the horse will return at the end of the contract.  Plonked on their yard with his belongings.


----------



## Bav (7 December 2015)

It does! It states 30 days up until 6 months and then thereafter 90 days notice is required.

Bizarre I feel like such an idiot for not realising before now. But like I say the contract is ending, so surely the notice doesn't stand? He's not my horse and I've no responsibility towards him once the contract has ended have I?


----------



## bouncing_ball (7 December 2015)

Bav said:



			It does! It states 30 days up until 6 months and then thereafter 90 days notice is required.

Bizarre I feel like such an idiot for not realising before now. But like I say the contract is ending, so surely the notice doesn't stand? He's not my horse and I've no responsibility towards him once the contract has ended have I?
		
Click to expand...

Depends on wording of contract. What was expected to happen after 31st dec? Did you need to renew? I'd have thought you ought you ought to let them know ASAP if plan to hand him back on 31st dec


----------



## FfionWinnie (7 December 2015)

Realistically what can she do if you return him on 31st Dec. Stuff all I reckon. If you're a BHS gold member give them a ring.

You've called their bluff about them pressuring you into buying him and now she's trying to make you keep him without buying him. You couldn't make it up.


----------



## Bav (7 December 2015)

4&#8203;The loan shall commence on 29th June 2014 and end on 31ST December 2015 (the Period).
1.5&#8203;At the end of the period in 1.4 it is the stated intention of the Borrower to purchase the Horse (payment terms to be agreed)

That's literally all it says.
Then goes on about what happens if you want to terminate during the stated period. But nothing on what happens at the end of the period if no agreed price is arranged. I find it frustrating as id initially contacted her with an offer a month ago and she only got back to me late last week. I understand I'm putting her out and am happy to wait until the end of the month but the contract isn't getting renewed and I don't want to fork out for two horses unnecessarily.


----------



## FfionWinnie (7 December 2015)

She got back to you and refused your offer?

Just a little bit of advice, it's too late now I realise, but I would never take a horse on any kind of trial without agreeing the payment terms first.


----------



## Vodkagirly (7 December 2015)

I think it is clear that your loan is only until 31 December,  I would send a message saying you intend to return on that day, or can do so earlier if they prefer. 
While it would be wrong to dump the horse suddenly on the owners, especially at this time of year. What were there expectations when you discussed the price?


----------



## LovesCobs (7 December 2015)

on the sections where it says what you must do if you wish to terminate during the period does it give 3 months? I'd get some legal advise (BHS Gold membership?) I think you can probably call her bluff on the fact it does not give a notice period for the end of the agreement. however on my house rent agreement it has 2 months notice for the end of the agreement (so if the end of the agreement is end April then notice would need to be given end Feb) however this is very clear. she may have presumed the notice period but it isn't stated on the agreement so she hasn't.
read it all again carefully and then state your case.


----------



## Bav (7 December 2015)

FfionWinnie said:



			Just a little bit of advice, it's too late now I realise, but I would never take a horse on any kind of trial without agreeing the payment terms first.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I understand that in hindsight I should have had it in writing but I know how much she brought him for 18 months prior to me loaning and how much he is insured for as I pay it and I offered a price very reasonable around that. Then she said she wanted double!

Today when I said he'd be returning she was more then happy take the original price I offered. Too little too late, for the exact same price I offered I've found a horse that ticks all of my boxes and then some.


----------



## LovesCobs (7 December 2015)

if she hadn't changed her mind and wanted the higher price and you refused then she could have told you to return the horse on 31st according to the contract as well. you're right it doesnt say what will happen if agreement isn't made. your eyes have been opened so it's too late. that's the risk she took


----------



## Bav (7 December 2015)

It's such a sticky situation as she was obviously expecting me to buy him and so was I! Until she was trying to diddle me out of a lot of money that he isn't worth.
That's why I should imagine she's left things this late in the game.


----------



## Goldenstar (7 December 2015)

Poor boy but I think you are entitled to return him on the 31st .


----------



## bouncing_ball (7 December 2015)

Do you no longer want the horse now the owner has agreed to your suggested price?


----------



## DabDab (7 December 2015)

Just write to her to say you will return on December 31st when your contract with her regarding this ends. You have agreed to no rolling contract terms - the agreement is to end on this date with either purchase or return. Organise and pay for him to be delivered back yourself.


----------



## Orca (7 December 2015)

Firstly, congratulations on finding a good candidate for purchase almost straight away! She sounds wonderful. My first two were geldings, my second two, mares. I'm a convert too &#55357;&#56836;

Secondly, unless otherwise stated, your contract period ends on the 31st Dec. i.e. Your contractual rights and responsibilities end on that day. The termination terms read as applicable within the period of your contract, not following the end of your contract period (in my opinion).

There's no harm in seeking legal advice but if I were you, I would state a clear intention to return him and do so. Their relenting on his asking price would have no baring on my decision. They doubled his price and you, quite rightly looked elsewhere - and now they are playing games. Maybe hoping that you're calling their bluff and that if they drop the price and threaten a three month notice period, you'll 'give in' and have him?

There's no good reason to take a horse you aren't 100% happy with and every reason not to. They were silly to risk his future with you for the sake of pure greed and personally, are not the type of people I'd want to do business with at all. If you do still want him, you now have the opportunity at a better price - if you prefer your other options, you now know exactly what else that price could buy you. Win, win!


----------



## FfionWinnie (7 December 2015)

Stick to your guns and return him. If this mare is everything you want, don't let her being a mare put you off. I always go out with the solid intention to buy a gelding and come home with a mare and they have all been wonderfully talented and characters too. In many purchases I've only once managed to get a gelding and he was a mini Shetland and free so he doesn't really count!

From your original post I wouldn't take that horse as a gift. They forced him on you from the very start and their greed has caused this ending. Silly people. There are many of them however!


----------



## Cinnamontoast (7 December 2015)

Contract ends 31 Dcember and there are no terms for what happens if you don't go on to buy him. I would go for the mare rather than a quirky spooky gelding.


----------



## Illusion100 (8 December 2015)

The Contract ends on the 31st Dec, with (as far as we know?), no renewal terms agreed with any expectation of future loaning. 

Contract states that at it's end you intended to buy the loan horse BUT price was NOT specified. They are trying to back you into a corner by stating a ridiculous sale price to accord to this contract, now that it is close to it's end....How convenient for them.....

They are bullying you to buy a horse THEY don't want.

Return the horse to them on the day the contract ends and tell them tomorrow that this is what you will do. It's their horse, they can tend to it's livery arrangements under advance notice. 

THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, it's just I can't stand bullies with dodgy contracts! Wishing you the best of luck.


----------



## Wheels (8 December 2015)

Agree with the others, stand firm and say you are returning the horse on 31st December as this is when the contract ends.  

It's great that you've found another horse but if the timings don't quite work out for you there will be others so don't worry and don't rush into having to buy one straight away. 

If the mare is still there when you've got agreement that you can send your loan horse back then that is a bonus


----------



## unicornystar (8 December 2015)

Loan is a loan, you can give back, they can take back, I think they are in dreamland and good luck to them selling with all those quirks!! It is rubbish for selling currently, let's see how they get on and would personally give notice, they probably think you are soft and will fork out extra as you are bonded to him.

Seriously, take your money elsewhere unless they come to you at the 11th hour and beg you to take him! Horses with napping etc are not that easy to sell (mine cost £1 maybe tell your owner of nappy horse that one!!!).

Don't feel bad it sounds to me like you got them out of a hole especially as they were not prepared to ride the horse initially! The horse will pick up on their nerves and lead them a right dance, let them get on with it but DONT FEEL BAD!!!!!


----------



## ester (8 December 2015)

Essentially they have cut off their nose to spite their face by encouraging you to look elsewhere and I would agree that much as you love him longer term you could get something much more fun, much less stressful and less likely to break than him. They chose not accept your offer, ergo the contract ends at the end of the month and he goes back. Perhaps they will think these things through a bit more in future. 

Let us know how it goes with the mare


----------



## smja (8 December 2015)

I'm another who says contract ends on 31st Dec and the payment terms were not agreed as per loan contract, therefore return him then unless they want him sooner.

Owners are trying it on with you. Their loss. If you still want the horse, that's a different story, but I would be offering much less than my original offer if I were you


----------



## OWLIE185 (8 December 2015)

The horse sounds a total liability.  I would not pay a penny for him.  Get rid of and find yourself a decent horse.


----------



## Red-1 (8 December 2015)

I am no solicitor, but a very "reasonable person", and I believe you have fulfilled all terms of the contract. You took the horse, cared for it, and as the contract came to a close offered a reasonable price, close to purchase price, insured value and over price recommended by professional trainer. You obviously intended to abide by your stated intention to buy the horse.

The Owners declined your offer. You then looked for another horse, preparing to return the loan horse, on the 31st of December, as that is when the contract is up. You have found a new horse, and now are intending to return the loan horse in order to buy the new one.

All seems very reasonable and honourable to me!

Good luck with your new horse, goodness only knows how you found one so quickly, but congratulations!


----------



## Irish gal (8 December 2015)

Isn't the greed of some people unbelievable...The horse is only saleable because you've ridden him. You've saved her what she would have had to pay a professional. 

If I was you I would go away and buy that nice mare or something else you fancy. Turn her horse out on grass, rugged up of course and hand him back to her out of work on Dec 31st. And then let her take him to a proffessional and spend a thousand getting him rideable again!


----------



## honetpot (8 December 2015)

I have loaned out may ponies many times, they were all safe schoolmasters so really the loaner got a very good deal. The shortest notice I have had is three days, even though I have a contract which says a months notice on either side.
  I am assuming that the contract was LWVTB, as you no longer wish to buy I would say that the contract is no longer applicable. Give them written notice that you want the loan contract to end as you no longer think the horse is suitable for your  needs and will not be purchasing it( reason can not agree payment terms, its too b***** expensive) and want to deliver the horse back to them as soon as possible, but no later than the 31st December.
 If it was my horse I would take it back straight away, but probably if it was mine I would have given it to you anyway. I have already done a LVWTB this year and gave them the pony when I was sure it was the right home.


----------



## ester (8 December 2015)

Yes definitely written notice, I'd be tempted to say you don't mind returning the horse earlier if the 31st of December is not convenient to them.


----------



## ossy (8 December 2015)

Yip agree with others contract ends 31st dec.  Tell them in writing that as no sale was agreed you will return horse at end of loan contract period.  Or if you still want the horse offer a lot less based on your new found market research. However this sounds to me like it could get very messy.  Do you know where you would be dropping the horse off too on the 31st as I could see them refusing to have it.


----------



## FfionWinnie (8 December 2015)

ester said:



			Yes definitely written notice, I'd be tempted to say you don't mind returning the horse earlier if the 31st of December is not convenient to them.
		
Click to expand...

Good idea!


----------



## Honey08 (8 December 2015)

Irish gal said:



			Isn't the greed of some people unbelievable...The horse is only saleable because you've ridden him. You've saved her what she would have had to pay a professional. 

If I was you I would go away and buy that nice mare or something else you fancy. Turn her horse out on grass, rugged up of course and hand him back to her out of work on Dec 31st. And then let her take him to a proffessional and spend a thousand getting him rideable again!
		
Click to expand...

Good points.  This is the angle that I would take if they insist on him staying three months.  Tell them they can either take him back now, clipped, ridden and perhaps saleable or you will rough the horse off and he can come back in February all hairy after three months without work (stress that he will still be fed and looked after, just not ridden or schooled).  They may well change their mind.  Especially if you mention Irishgal's point that they may need to pay for him to be re started when he comes back into work!


----------



## Irish gal (8 December 2015)

Bav you have all the trump cards. You are the only hope this woman has of selling the horse. When I initially read your post, I was going to say that I could easily find you a good horse here, if you had any sort of budget. There is nobody in the market for a massive, spooky, nappy horse; the only reason you were going to buy is that you'd obviously developed a relationship.

She's afraid to ride him herself and so will have to put him with a professional to sell. I would be telling her that she can take him now while he's in work and is in some way behaving himself, or face selling him from the field for nothing...In all likelihood she will end up giving him away as a field companion.


----------



## Leo Walker (8 December 2015)

The contract ends 31st December, but in all honesty if you break the contract and drop the horse off tomorrow there really isnt anything they can do! I've had several out on loan, and only one has worked out! The others have ended up with me collecting horses with a couple of hours notice, or at best with a couple of weeks. The one that gave me a couple of weeks kept over a thousand pounds worth of tack, which I only got back when I threatened the police and made a massive nuisance of myself! 

As someone who loans a horse out you have to be prepared to take it back with no notice at all. Yes the contract may say different, but it would cost way more to try and sue some one for breaking that contract, and TBH you have good grounds for doing that anyway!


----------



## peaceandquiet1 (9 December 2015)

Any update?


----------



## Bav (9 December 2015)

Hi guys!
Owner said she'd ring back after reading the contract and we are into our second day without a word back. I shall be ringing back later this evening. I'm very very lucky to be in the position that the wonderful owner of the new horse is more then happy to keep her until the end of the month. 

To be honest I'm just so fed up of all the hassle and just want to wash my hands of him. I know it sounds awful as he's an animal not an object and I'd never wish ill on him, but this is getting so stressful I feel sick just thinking about it all.

So I'm calming myself by Internet browsing for 6ft3 rugs as my 7"ers will drown new girly.

Forgot to add that I took my trusty dad (he's always been my rock when it comes to viewing horses) and put a deposit down on the mare. She's a beautiful grey 16hh 5 year old Irish sport horse. Has been out this year successful competing unaff SJ and dressage, has been hunting and done team chasing. Still a bit green but very honest and genuine. And not a single spook - this is still can't get over!


----------



## Orca (9 December 2015)

Bav said:



			Hi guys!
Owner said she'd ring back after reading the contract and we are into our second day without a word back. I shall be ringing back later this evening. I'm very very lucky to be in the position that the wonderful owner of the new horse is more then happy to keep her until the end of the month. 

To be honest I'm just so fed up of all the hassle and just want to wash my hands of him. I know it sounds awful as he's an animal not an object and I'd never wish ill on him, but this is getting so stressful I feel sick just thinking about it all.

So I'm calming myself by Internet browsing for 6ft3 rugs as my 7"ers will drown new girly.

Forgot to add that I took my trusty dad (he's always been my rock when it comes to viewing horses) and put a deposit down on the mare. She's a beautiful grey 16hh 5 year old Irish sport horse. Has been out this year successful competing unaff SJ and dressage, has been hunting and done team chasing. Still a bit green but very honest and genuine. And not a single spook - this is still can't get over!
		
Click to expand...

Great news about your newbie, Bav! Some things are just meant to be &#55357;&#56842;


----------



## ester (9 December 2015)

The more they mess you about the quicker he goes back IMO! I would certainly have the next conversation along the lines of have you sorted somewhere for him to go yet. 

And don't worry we know you know he is a living being but sometimes it can be difficult when they become tied up in a lot of personal stress.


----------



## Irish gal (9 December 2015)

Well done Bav, am so delighted for you and that her guilt trip didn't work. Now you can really enjoy your horse and go places with her, as opposed to being saddled for life with a problem animal.

A 16hh will be a joy I imagine after such a big lad, far easier to manouver and do things with. Wishing you all the best with her!


----------



## Bav (9 December 2015)

Urgh! Coming out in a rash due to stress! After the phone call tonight she's still swearing she needs 3 months notice and doesn't have anywhere for him to go! This is all getting ridiculous know. What would have happened if I was injured or, heaven forbid, died? She'd had to have taken him back then! It's not my fault she's brought herself a new horse and no longer has anywhere for him to go!


----------



## Red-1 (9 December 2015)

Bav said:



			Urgh! Coming out in a rash due to stress! After the phone call tonight she's still swearing she needs 3 months notice and doesn't have anywhere for him to go! This is all getting ridiculous know. What would have happened if I was injured or, heaven forbid, died? She'd had to have taken him back then! It's not my fault she's brought herself a new horse and no longer has anywhere for him to go!
		
Click to expand...

I am afraid the contract is up on the 31st, so I guess she will have to put him on livery somewhere. There are always livery yards. Maybe not where exactly you want, but there are always yards. You have fulfilled the LVTB, attempted to buy, were rebuffed, and now you have other plans. 

As an aside, where did you find your mare. I am looking and can't find where people are advertising these days. Have looked H and H, Horsequest and a few local Favebook groups, but can't find one similar to the one you magicked up in a few days!


----------



## Umbongo (9 December 2015)

Your contract ends on 31st, so no she does not need 3 months notice as you are not renewing the contract. It sounds like she was hoping you would have fallen in love with him and would have paid any price they wanted, and now it's all come to bite her on the bottom. I would be telling her that she will have to find somewhere for him to go ASAP, and if she doesn't then tell her that as of 31st you will be treating her horse as a full livery and she will be getting billed for it.


----------



## FlyingCircus (9 December 2015)

Bav said:



			Urgh! Coming out in a rash due to stress! After the phone call tonight she's still swearing she needs 3 months notice and doesn't have anywhere for him to go! This is all getting ridiculous know. What would have happened if I was injured or, heaven forbid, died? She'd had to have taken him back then! It's not my fault she's brought herself a new horse and no longer has anywhere for him to go!
		
Click to expand...

I'd be tempted to tell her that as the contract ends on 31st Dec, you will be billing her x for your time and costs per day (work out how much it costs per day to keep him then add in your own time too for this value...).


----------



## Bav (9 December 2015)

Red-1 said:



			As an aside, where did you find your mare. I am looking and can't find where people are advertising these days. Have looked H and H, Horsequest and a few local Favebook groups, but can't find one similar to the one you magicked up in a few days!
		
Click to expand...

I found her on a website called horse deals. I'd never heard of it and hadn't seen any advertised on preloved,
H and H, horse quest etc so I simply
Googled 'horses for sale in Northampton' and this website popped up. It was only on the off chance that I emailed whilst at work as there was nothing to say when the advert went up, and it happened to have only been up a week! I think I'm ridiculously lucky with the mare, but it's all swings and roundabouts as my massive bad luck has caught up with me what with this massive fiasco with loan horses owner!


----------



## Michen (9 December 2015)

OP is there anything in your contract about him being returned if not fit for purpose. Say his behaviour under saddle makes him no longer that.


----------



## Red-1 (9 December 2015)

Bav said:



			I found her on a website called horse deals. I'd never heard of it and hadn't seen any advertised on preloved,
H and H, horse quest etc so I simply
Googled 'horses for sale in Northampton' and this website popped up. It was only on the off chance that I emailed whilst at work as there was nothing to say when the advert went up, and it happened to have only been up a week! I think I'm ridiculously lucky with the mare, but it's all swings and roundabouts as my massive bad luck has caught up with me what with this massive fiasco with loan horses owner!
		
Click to expand...

Ah, I called a couple from there, and both turned out to be sold Looooooooong before. The second man was very cross as he had beed trying to have the advert removed for over a year, and it was still there! So, I stopped looking at that site, as 2 out of 2 being sold months previously and not removed did not seem good. I will start looking on that one again!


----------



## Orca (9 December 2015)

Bav said:



			Urgh! Coming out in a rash due to stress! After the phone call tonight she's still swearing she needs 3 months notice and doesn't have anywhere for him to go! This is all getting ridiculous know. What would have happened if I was injured or, heaven forbid, died? She'd had to have taken him back then! It's not my fault she's brought herself a new horse and no longer has anywhere for him to go!
		
Click to expand...

She has to take him back. Don't give her any choice in the matter. I'm pretty disgusted at her unwillingness to, to be honest! Whether she likes it (or him!) or not, he is her responsibility and it's just beyond belief that she's trying so hard to shirk it. I live in an area where four out of five yards have zero spaces. I could still arrange cheap grass livery as of tomorrow if I was stuck. ...I'd go so far as to have a strongly worded solicitors letter drawn up asap, to make matters perfectly clear to her (I wouldn't have the time or energy to deal with what you're dealing with).


----------



## DabDab (9 December 2015)

Tell her that you are very sorry for the situation she finds herself in, but you are now in a position where you need to start organising transport for him and therefore require a delivery address for him.


----------



## Irish gal (9 December 2015)

Bav legally she hasn't a leg to stand on. You can simply drop the horse back to her yard/home on Dec 31st and if she's not there put him in a stable and text her to say he's now home. She's just trying to bully you now. You might be as well off just texting from now on, so you have a record of everything said in writing. Just drop the horse off, beyond hand wringing there is nothing she can do to you.

Red-1, a friend has a truly gorgeous ISH for sale. He's a horse of a lifetime IMO. He's the first horse up on a page I have. Google Golden Vale Livery and it will come up (although comes up as Golden Vale Sport Horses). If you can find better where you are for the price - I'll eat my hat!


----------



## chillipup (9 December 2015)

FlyingCircus said:



			I'd be tempted to tell her that as the contract ends on 31st Dec, you will be billing her x for your time and costs per day (work out how much it costs per day to keep him then add in your own time too for this value...).
		
Click to expand...

This ^ & umbongo's post . Mention that obviously, the quicker she collects, the less she will have to pay. Sounds fair to me. Contract ends 31st, you have no legal obligation after that date, she does.


----------



## ester (9 December 2015)

At this point I would send her a recorded delivery letter stating that as per the contract he will be returning on the 31st december (this is not up for discussion) and you require an address for delivery by X date or he will be returned to her home address. 

She can't make up contracts as she goes along and loan contracts breakdown at short notice all the time and no one holds them to contracts - as others say they are never worth enforcing in court anyway. She made her bed, now time to lie in it I'm afraid and her issue if she has replaced him, more fool her even more so if that is the case!


----------



## FfionWinnie (9 December 2015)

ester said:



			At this point I would send her a recorded delivery letter stating that as per the contract he will be returning on the 31st december (this is not up for discussion) and you require an address for delivery by X date or he will be returned to her home address. 

She can't make up contracts as she goes along and loan contracts breakdown at short notice all the time and no one holds them to contracts - as others say they are never worth enforcing in court anyway. She made her bed, now time to lie in it I'm afraid and her issue if she has replaced him, more fool her even more so if that is the case!
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely this. Her own stupid greed got her in this mess. New horse sounds amazing. Just what you need!


----------



## Wheels (10 December 2015)

Might be worth a solicitors letter, couple of hundred pounds maybe but would keep you straight and show her there is no way out


----------



## ossy (10 December 2015)

Do you have any idea of an address to take the horse back too?  If you do id be tempted to take him back on 1st January as they might be prepared for you just to arrive on the 31st, gates locked ect however may catch them off guard on the 1st.  Otherwise you could try the solicitor route to try call their bluff and get a delivery address.  Unfortunately without anywhere to take the horse too you are stuck. You could give her a bill for livery from the 31st but if she doesn't pay it you will still need to go through small claims to try get it.


----------



## smja (10 December 2015)

3 months' notice would be if you had tried to end the loan before it finished. You are not ending the loan, the stated period is coming to an end and as no purchase price is agreed, you are returning the horse (i.e. her property) as you are legally bound to do so.

She should have thought about the 'what ifs' when drawing up a contract to finish on 31st December!


----------



## Bav (10 December 2015)

Please lord give me strength.

Today I received a rather nasty e-mail. It stated that she'd extended the loan as I said I couldn't buy until after my wedding, even though she didn't want to loan she wanted to sell. SHE CONTACTED ME!! She contacted me, from my own wanted advert, which said that I wanted a horse to loan, potentially view to buy but not until the end of 2015. She knew this from the get go and is now saying she has done me the favour of unnecessarily extending it. I hadn't actually known until a few months ago that she'd even advertised him prior to loaning him to me! 

She also went on to say she's spoken to the BHS legal helpline and they've said regardless whether or not it ends I'm still bound by the termination agreement. However I've also rang them and they totally sided with me and said that once the contract is up then that's the contract up and I'm no longer bound by any of the terms of it! So what a load of tosh ringing them was!

So I cried a lot. And then sent her an email pointing all of this out and stating that if she is still refusing to take back her own property then I will seek further advice. Lucky for me, next door neighbor and VERY good family friend is a lawyer who has offering to have a looksee at the contract. This is so much stress! I've never heard of loanees struggling to return horses, only of loaners struggling to get their horses back!!!


----------



## Vodkagirly (10 December 2015)

Poor you.  get yourself some wine and chocolate. Keep copies of all communication. Personally I would leave the ball in her court. Do you have the address for the owner to deliver the horse back to if necessary ?


----------



## chillipup (10 December 2015)

Aww, try not to get upset Bav, the woman sounds like a lunatic! If it were me, I would only reply to an email of hers now to state ' your horse will either be returned to you on 31st or you may collect it at my convenience' and leave it at that. If she sends more rubbish emails, just keep saying that. I'm sure it's going to be ok soon


----------



## FfionWinnie (10 December 2015)

Nothing to stress about. Tell her the horse will be returned on 31st as per agreement and don't enter into any other conversations at all.


----------



## Orca (10 December 2015)

If there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't argue with stupid. It's a complete waste of energy to even try! It's fantastic that you have a lawyer to hand. Let them help you &#55357;&#56842;


----------



## DabDab (10 December 2015)

Oh no, poor you. What a pain in the neck this woman sounds.
Try not to talk to her for a bit now - give her a few days to process and see if she becomes a little more reasonable. No point arguing with her, as she isn't reasonable enough to get anything other than frustration in return.

Don't stress, you're getting a new horse, and this one will be going back to his owner one way or another. Here's to the future!


----------



## ester (10 December 2015)

Yes none of this back and forth in depth conversation and arguing, he is her property and her responsibility at the end of the day, much as I would be tempted to ask if she really plans on defending her contract in court . I mean seriously!? Stick to the facts, he is her horse, he will be returning the 31st, no ifs/buts even if she thinks that is wrong so you just need an address for delivery or he will be delivered to her house end of.


----------



## Max123 (10 December 2015)

Find cheap grass livery for the next 3 months. Don't ride him or clip him just basic care. He will be more difficult to sell / loan in 3 months time than he is now and hopefully the reality of that will dawn on her and she might see sense and take him back earlier.


----------



## Leo Walker (10 December 2015)

Max123 said:



			Find cheap grass livery for the next 3 months. Don't ride him or clip him just basic care. He will be more difficult to sell / loan in 3 months time than he is now and hopefully the reality of that will dawn on her and she might see sense and take him back earlier.
		
Click to expand...

I was about to say exactly the same! Find cheap grass livery and turn him out. Pay the livery but let her know in writing that you wont be caring for him. If you find the right place they will cast an eye over him a couple of times a day for you so he wont be totally neglected or at risk, but you also wont have the hassle and it might spur her into action.

You will almost certainly find that shes calling your bluff and when you dont do as she wants, then she will deal with it herself. If she doesn't I think you can probably serve an abandonment notice on her, but I don't know the legalities of that, so you will need to check


----------



## Illusion100 (10 December 2015)

She sounds like a control freak who wants to have her cake and eat it. These kind of people enjoy confrontation, having the last word and tend to believe that once they say something it automatically becomes undisputed law. In other words, they are full of s***.

Advise her that the Contract was LWVTB upon agreement of a purchase price before the 31st Dec 2015. Due to the horse not being fit for purpose, the purchase price demanded was exceedingly higher than the value of the horse, therefore rejected by you and as such the terms of the contract are no longer valid. Your obligation to care for the horse ends on the 31st Dec, inform them to collect the horse on or before this date. If they do not remove/collect their property within this timeframe, it will be understood that they no longer wish to retrieve their property and you will recuperate any further costs incurred by selling the horse. You will no longer engage in any other topic of discussion unless it details collection arrangements for the horse within the timeframe specified above. 

Send this via email and inform them that a signed copy will be sent via recorded delivery. If they get narky, ignore them.


----------



## ester (10 December 2015)

Max123 said:



			Find cheap grass livery for the next 3 months. Don't ride him or clip him just basic care. He will be more difficult to sell / loan in 3 months time than he is now and hopefully the reality of that will dawn on her and she might see sense and take him back earlier.
		
Click to expand...

But this accepting that she is right, 1) she isn't, 2) it is her horse and if you died would be her responsibility . 3) Lord help the OP if something happens to him/he needs a vet in that time.


----------



## Clare85 (10 December 2015)

What an absolute nightmare! Tbh, I would probably just load him up and take him back to her asap, and have nothing more to do with her. What can she do? He's her horse, you have offered to buy him, she has refused, therefore she has to take him back. She sounds like a total nutter!


----------



## ester (10 December 2015)

Does she have a front garden?


----------



## Bav (10 December 2015)

Feeling much better after receiving a phone call back from the BHS people, although it was confusing receiving a phone call from people called Purple! They've referred me to the TORTS interference (goods) act. They've no idea where she would have gotten her information from in terms of the termination grounds having to be followed once the contract ends. They told me that if you view a BHS loan agreement (which is what she modified) it normally has a clause saying that at the end of the period the horse is to be returned to the owner. And then it says that it is the borrowers responsibility obviously blah blah blah. Apparently if she also continues to refuse to have him I'm within my rights to sell him and deduct any livery, feed and shoeing costs and retain them myself.
Feeling much better about the whole thing now. But I tell you - you guys have been life savers!! MARS BARS ALL ROUND!!!


----------



## bouncing_ball (10 December 2015)

Clare85 said:



			What an absolute nightmare! Tbh, I would probably just load him up and take him back to her asap, and have nothing more to do with her. What can she do? He's her horse, you have offered to buy him, she has refused, therefore she has to take him back. She sounds like a total
		
Click to expand...

Reading all the posts:

Bav offered a purchase price close to what owners paid / insurance value. Owners said wanted higher price. Bav refused and said would look at other horses and return loan horse. Owners then said would accept Bav's original offer. Bav no longer wants to buy the horse at her original offer. Bav wants to return horse as not buying. Owner thinks whole point of loan was to buy horse in late 2015, and has dropped price to the amount suggested by Bav. Think might be two sides here.


----------



## ester (10 December 2015)

That was the whole point of the loan. However the owner seemed to get an inflated idea of how much her tricky large horse was worth despite the fact that it was the OP that had put the work in too. The OP took this time to have a look around then owner decided to back track, unfortunately for them too late as Bav did not then want to go through with the purchase. Essentially don't try and be a moneygrabber when you have a tricky horse that you won't ride yourself to sell and have already acquired a replacement for yourself. If they weren't happy with loaning then they should have continued to try and sell the horse themselves the first time. 

Bavs just be aware that I think that you don't want to be in the position where you have to sell this horse, because I'm not sure you would be hard hearted enough to sell him to the sort of people that would take him on. Although explaining the fact you can might make the current owner realise. I would just avoid ending up having to do that at all costs.


----------



## Bav (10 December 2015)

bouncing_ball said:



			Reading all the posts:

Bav offered a purchase price close to what owners paid / insurance value. Owners said wanted higher price. Bav refused and said would look at other horses and return loan horse. Owners then said would accept Bav's original offer. Bav no longer wants to buy the horse at her original offer. Bav wants to return horse as not buying. Owner thinks whole point of loan was to buy horse in late 2015, and has dropped price to the amount suggested by Bav. Think might be two sides here.
		
Click to expand...

Yes that's totally correct. I do understand that she's got to find somewhere for him in the middle of winter, but my point is that her 3 months required notice is ridiculous. If I'd have died she'd had to have taken him back, she only considered the original offer once I'd said I wanted to return him, I don't find playing with my emotions and being told what a bad person I am, fair. The negotiations started end of October and she took almost 2 weeks to even bother get back to me to decline my offer. I refuse to pay for him for three months - that is my point.


----------



## Irish gal (10 December 2015)

Don't be worrying Bav, she put him on grass livery at I imagine £40/week. End of...


----------



## Irish gal (10 December 2015)

I meant she can put him on grass livery...


----------



## Orca (10 December 2015)

bouncing_ball said:



			Reading all the posts:

Bav offered a purchase price close to what owners paid / insurance value. Owners said wanted higher price. Bav refused and said would look at other horses and return loan horse. Owners then said would accept Bav's original offer. Bav no longer wants to buy the horse at her original offer. Bav wants to return horse as not buying. Owner thinks whole point of loan was to buy horse in late 2015, and has dropped price to the amount suggested by Bav. Think might be two sides here.
		
Click to expand...

I see that part as no different from attempting any other horse purchase (and it really isn't!). Make offer - offer is refused - look elsewhere = simple! The horse is not purchased and the contract ends . OP is under no obligation to revisit negotiations with the seller, just as none of us would be when purchasing a horse.


----------



## Bav (14 December 2015)

UPDATE:

I have since received an e-mail to say that if I return her horse after December 31st then she will seek legal advice under the clause of 'Abandonnment'

The mind actually boggles. I've totally just had enough and will be conferring with my solicitor. But my god!! Thought you'd all enjoy a giggle...


----------



## FlyingCircus (14 December 2015)

Bav said:



			UPDATE:

I have since received an e-mail to say that if I return her horse after December 31st then she will seek legal advice under the clause of 'Abandonnment'

The mind actually boggles. I've totally just had enough and will be conferring with my solicitor. But my god!! Thought you'd all enjoy a giggle...
		
Click to expand...

A giggle indeed! She's trying, bless her...not convinced she'll get very far though, considering the key fact...he's HER horse...


----------



## Ormsweird (14 December 2015)

Err, it's HER horse. 

She's on some interesting stuff there, is all I'll say!


----------



## Michen (14 December 2015)

What an absolute nightmare. She sounds about as nutty and awful as the woman that sold me my mare and I then had to take to court! Poor you. 



Bav said:



			UPDATE:

I have since received an e-mail to say that if I return her horse after December 31st then she will seek legal advice under the clause of 'Abandonnment'

The mind actually boggles. I've totally just had enough and will be conferring with my solicitor. But my god!! Thought you'd all enjoy a giggle...
		
Click to expand...


----------



## bouncing_ball (14 December 2015)

Bav said:



			UPDATE:

I have since received an e-mail to say that if I return her horse after December 31st then she will seek legal advice under the clause of 'Abandonnment'

The mind actually boggles. I've totally just had enough and will be conferring with my solicitor. But my god!! Thought you'd all enjoy a giggle...
		
Click to expand...

Simples you return him on or before 31st dec!!!


----------



## Bav (14 December 2015)

bouncing_ball said:



			Simples you return him on or before 31st dec!!!
		
Click to expand...

Sorry I meant if I return him on or just after. So basically if he goes back before the 90 days she keeps saying about, she'll have me done for abandonment!


----------



## crabbymare (14 December 2015)

Bav said:



			Sorry I meant if I return him on or just after. So basically if he goes back before the 90 days she keeps saying about, she'll have me done for abandonment!
		
Click to expand...

that will be fun for her to prove when you have the trail of communictions with her and its actually her horse. abandonment is a totally different thing to returning a horse at the end of a contract when the owner does not want it back. since the contract ends on 31st december I would make sure you return the horse on 30th or 31st so that there is no way she can try saying that you agreed to extend the contract by not returning by the end date as I can see that being attempted next  thanks for the laugh though. I could do with some of whatever she is on


----------



## be positive (14 December 2015)

I don't think she understands the meaning of abandonment, it is HER that is at risk of being done for abandoning her horse if she refuses to give him a place of safety once your loan contract runs out, she must be completely bonkers if she expects you to keep him beyond the contracted time, after 31st Dec he is no longer on a loan agreement so is her responsibility to do with as she wishes.


----------



## Vodkagirly (14 December 2015)

She hasn't a clue. Return horse on 31St, to her home if she hasn't supplied an alternative. For the horses sake, I would do it first thing in the morning so she has time to find somewhere.


----------



## Orca (14 December 2015)

be positive said:



			I don't think she understands the meaning of abandonment, it is HER that is at risk of being done for abandoning her horse if she refuses to give him a place of safety once your loan contract runs out, she must be completely bonkers if she expects you to keep him beyond the contracted time, after 31st Dec he is no longer on a loan agreement so is her responsibility to do with as she wishes.
		
Click to expand...

This! I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## ihatework (14 December 2015)

Unfortunately, as they say, you cannot educate pork.
I'd suggest a recorded letter to her address, saying that the horse will be delivered to her home address on 31st December unless she specifies an alternative location or a preferred date prior to 31st. This is in accordance with your loan agreement that expires on that date. Thereafter she is solely responsible for her property. 

Then go through with it. Dumb idiot that she is.


----------



## Goldenstar (14 December 2015)

She should have considered all this before her attack of greed.
Might be worth a letter from the solicitor re the return of the horse just to prove you mean what your saying .
Just get it over with .


----------



## Illusion100 (14 December 2015)

What planet is this crazy biatch on?!

Do YOU for abandonment?! HAHAHAHAHA, crack on love, see how that turns out for you! 

What a windowlicker.


----------



## Bav (14 December 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			What a windowlicker.
		
Click to expand...

Just snorted my lemonade all over the sofa!
Hahahahahahaha!

I'm going to stop stressing, I've spoken to my solicitor friend who says she hasn't a leg to stand on, she stated in the e-mail that she'd have to accept him back and would then seek legal advice - she's therefore in my eyes admitted she'll accept him back. I'm just going to chill out, my dad (as I've yet to take my trailer license) has said he'll load him up and take him on Saturday 2nd Jan first thing in the morning. Then she can try what she wants and I shall wait for the court case xD


----------



## Illusion100 (14 December 2015)

Bav said:



			Just snorted my lemonade all over the sofa!
Hahahahahahaha!

I'm going to stop stressing, I've spoken to my solicitor friend who says she hasn't a leg to stand on, she stated in the e-mail that she'd have to accept him back and would then seek legal advice - she's therefore in my eyes admitted she'll accept him back. I'm just going to chill out, my dad (as I've yet to take my trailer license) has said he'll load him up and take him on Saturday 2nd Jan first thing in the morning. Then she can try what she wants and I shall wait for the court case xD
		
Click to expand...

Sorry I made you PopSnot over your sofa, my bad.

Yes, please don't stress. However it is the season of good will. All you have to do is say the word and we'll all chip in to buy this woman a brain.


----------



## miss_c (14 December 2015)

Bav said:



			UPDATE:

I have since received an e-mail to say that if I return her horse after December 31st then she will seek legal advice under the clause of 'Abandonnment'

The mind actually boggles. I've totally just had enough and will be conferring with my solicitor. But my god!! Thought you'd all enjoy a giggle...
		
Click to expand...

No problem, I'm sure you'd be able to arrange to return the horse before Dec 31st instead. 

(EDIT: it would appear others had the same idea!)


----------



## Goldenstar (14 December 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			Sorry I made you PopSnot over your sofa, my bad.

Yes, please don't stress. However it is the season of good will. All you have to do is say the word and we'll all chip in to buy this woman a brain.
		
Click to expand...

Just imagine what she could think up with a brain


----------



## Illusion100 (14 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Just imagine what she could think up with a brain
		
Click to expand...

Not a problem, we shall buy her the premium 'Common Sense Brain'.


----------



## jhoward (14 December 2015)

ANY CONTRACT that you think you have is probably not actually legal, same as the BHS one it is NOT a legal document certain things have to be adered to to make it actully legal enough to stand up in court. 

having had horses out on loan and had issues i can sympathise. 

send her a blunt email saying as of the 31st of decemeber you are no longer able to keep the horse and where is her prefered loaction to return to. 

dear idioit owner. 

as per our email discussions,
 im am giving you notice that per our argreement that ends on the 31st of decemeber 2015 I shall be returning your horse. 
If you unable to give me a return location then please be advised that as of 31/12/15 your horse will be on full livery charged at £200 pw and the horse will not be able to leave the yard until all monies are paid. I f at the end of the 30 days full livery settlement hasnt been established then we will seek to reclaim costs in a court of law, this includes our right to sell the horse.

something along those lines.


----------



## alibali (15 December 2015)

Does no one feel sorry for the horse in all of this hilarity? Its future looks rather bleak.


----------



## Illusion100 (15 December 2015)

alibali said:



			Does no one feel sorry for the horse in all of this hilarity? Its future looks rather bleak.
		
Click to expand...

Yes. Yet what can we do? By all means, tell us what you would do?


----------



## Bav (15 December 2015)

alibali said:



			Does no one feel sorry for the horse in all of this hilarity? Its future looks rather bleak.
		
Click to expand...

Yes. Having to sit and think of him as 'property' is pretty awful. I do feel very guilty about the whole thing. He would make a competent rider a cracking happy hacker - which is precisely what I shall make sure his owner knows. He clearly just no longer wants to compete which, very selfishly, is exactly what I want to do. 
I'd like to think his owner will do right by him and find him a suitable home and that hopefully she's just trying to make me keep and pay for him 3 months longer because she's upset I wouldn't buy him and not because she actually doesn't want him back. I did initially offer to sell him for her but she didn't seem interested in that. I'm not sure what else I'm expected to do?


----------



## brighteyes (15 December 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			She sounds like a control freak who wants to have her cake and eat it. These kind of people enjoy confrontation, having the last word and tend to believe that once they say something it automatically becomes undisputed law. In other words, they are full of s***.

Advise her that the Contract was LWVTB upon agreement of a purchase price before the 31st Dec 2015. Due to the horse not being fit for purpose, the purchase price demanded was exceedingly higher than the value of the horse, therefore rejected by you and as such the terms of the contract are no longer valid. Your obligation to care for the horse ends on the 31st Dec, inform them to collect the horse on or before this date. If they do not remove/collect their property within this timeframe, it will be understood that they no longer wish to retrieve their property and you will recuperate any further costs incurred by selling the horse. You will no longer engage in any other topic of discussion unless it details collection arrangements for the horse within the timeframe specified above. 

Send this via email and inform them that a signed copy will be sent via recorded delivery. If they get narky, ignore them.
		
Click to expand...

Is what I'd do.


----------



## brighteyes (15 December 2015)

Bav said:



			Yes. Having to sit and think of him as 'property' is pretty awful. I do feel very guilty about the whole thing. He would make a competent rider a cracking happy hacker - which is precisely what I shall make sure his owner knows. He clearly just no longer wants to compete which, very selfishly, is exactly what I want to do. 
I'd like to think his owner will do right by him and find him a suitable home and that hopefully she's just trying to make me keep and pay for him 3 months longer because she's upset I wouldn't buy him and not because she actually doesn't want him back. I did initially offer to sell him for her but she didn't seem interested in that. I'm not sure what else I'm expected to do?
		
Click to expand...

Nothing like burning all your bridges and then realising your wooden boat was tied to the first one.


----------



## alibali (15 December 2015)

Sorry Bav not trying to make you feel bad, I realise you've already tried to do your best by the horse. I'm not expecting you to do anything as such. Its the owners attitude that upsets me.

What would I do? Its irrelevant because I am not you  

I hope you are correct and that the owner will do right by him though I'm afraid the signs are not encouraging.


----------



## miss_c (15 December 2015)

brighteyes said:



			Nothing like burning all your bridges and then realising your wooden boat was tied to the first one.
		
Click to expand...


I love that saying!


----------



## ester (15 December 2015)

I think I might just have to send her one of these


----------



## Clannad48 (15 December 2015)

Not really of any help to you - but from the other side - we put one of our mares out on 'permanent loan' to a very good friend of mine and her sister- sadly my friend died suddenly in July but there was never, at any time, any thought of holding her sister to the 'permanent loan' agreement. My friend was the 'expert' in horsecare and her sister very much needing constant assistance.  We allowed the sister to keep the horse on a 'see how it goes' agreement, with the understanding that if she couldn't cope the horse would come back to us - no problem.  The mare is now back with us to basically be a field ornament for the rest of her life, the mare owes us nothing and there is no way I would consider selling her.  

The loaner in your case has no concern for her horse and is relying on you to feel sorry for the horse and keep it at your expense. She is the sort of owner that gives the rest of us a bad name. You are definitely not the worst person in the world - the owner is!! 

Good luck with however this pans out - good luck with your new horse - keep us updated please


----------



## Chuffy99 (18 December 2015)

Any update OP


----------



## Bav (18 December 2015)

Continuing to be threatened with legal action and that she will take me to court in order to receive financial contribution towards the remaining two months that 'I shall be owing her'

Fed up to the back teeth now however I've consulted with my solicitor and Citizen's advice so we shall see. It will cost her the same amount to take me to court as she can get back??? The mind boggles.


----------



## FfionWinnie (18 December 2015)

Reckon once he's back she will shut up. Well she will because you can just block her from contacting you.


----------



## EQUIDAE (18 December 2015)

With all this abuse id just be dropping the horse off immediately. No court would find in her favour with the amount of abuse she is giving you


----------



## ester (18 December 2015)

She's just trying it on, trying to scare you and is clearly bonkers. 

Repeat several times OP, she is bonkers, she is bonkers...


----------



## Damnation (18 December 2015)

What an idiot.

I see you have done all the right things, its a difficult situation when its a live animal involved especially if she says she has nowhere to put the horse. However, if you own a horse you have put out on loan you should always have a "just incase" plan for the animal incase they need to come back for whatever reason (ill health, horse and loaner don't get along etc), or have a plan in place to be able to look after the horse at the current yard until something else is sorted.

ETA: Sounds like she shouldn't be trusted with a pair of socks let alone a live animal!


----------



## Girlracer (18 December 2015)

She's trying to scare you, there is no way it would be worth her while taking you to court. 

Whether we want to see him as property or not he is HER property and her responsibility, ESPECIALLY when the contract 'expires' which is the 31st or this month. So if she does not take necessary steps to ensure the horse has somewhere to go then she is in the wrong. 

Do not accept the bullying tactics, I really feel for you and the horse in question, and a little bit the owner. Obviously the horse is far too much for her and really she needed you to buy him didn't she? And that's why she is making such a fuss.But at the end of the day, it's her horse she HAS to make arrangements for his return! It's madness to me that she hasn't just organised a cheap local grass livery or similar?


----------



## Goldenstar (18 December 2015)

ester said:



			She's just trying it on, trying to scare you and is clearly bonkers. 

Repeat several times OP, she is bonkers, she is bonkers...
		
Click to expand...

Remember the saying Bav 'never reason with a madman ' just return the horse in line with your legal advice then block her on your phone, do keep a record of any calls and all your texts back and forth just in case .


----------



## smja (23 December 2015)

Any update, Bav?


----------



## CBFan (23 December 2015)

Agree with the others. She is just trying to scare you. Your contract ends on 31st Dec and she should have made contact with you sooner to discuss the horse's future and made arrangements for his return if that is what you both agreed. I'd be delivering the horse to her front door on 31st if she hasn't specified anywhere else for him to go. He is her responsibility.

As for his issues - it sounds like he has far more 'going on' than perhaps you realise and I think you're making a lucky escape  Good luck with your new mare


----------



## willhegofirst (30 December 2015)

Any update Bav, are you returning the horse tomorrow?


----------



## Clannad48 (1 January 2016)

Any news OP, hope everything has gone well


----------



## Rhandir (1 January 2016)

How did it go?


----------



## Mariposa (1 January 2016)

Hope the drop off went ok OP!


----------



## Bigbenji (1 January 2016)

Was thinking about this thread the other day. Hope everything is ok OP.


----------



## LittleGinger (1 January 2016)

Hope everything went well, OP. Any news on the new horse, too?


----------



## Bav (1 January 2016)

Drop off is tomorrow! Dreading it! Gave the boy a big brush and clean down and extra cuddles and treats tonight  so sad!

She's saying that she's taking me to court for £670 and something pence to cover the funds for her having to have him up until March 10th when she's saying he should have been returned. Even though the contract ended yesterday. Its been an interesting couple of weeks! 

New pony is absolutely amazing! Took her to our local equestrian centre Monday to hire the indoor arena and jumps. She's a bit nappy towards other horses, nothing dangerous she just clings and will fidget when the other horses go by. She does however love her jumping and flew everything first time, however I'm not used to something so exuberant (may need something stronger then a loose ring snaffle for jumping) and she jumped one jump lovely but scarpered off afterwards got her legs in a right muddle and just dropped her shoulder and we went separate ways. And I've fractured a bone where the thumb joins the hand! So silly! Got back on and she was an angel, just very fit and absolutely enjoying herself! Considering that she's hunting fit, had no turnout (as they are on 'quarenteen' for the first two weeks) with a new rider in a new place was she was fantastic, I just have to remember that she's still only a baby. So I've now been out of action. The only time in my life when I shall probably have two horses and I haven't been able to ride either the last week!


----------



## Vodkagirly (1 January 2016)

Hope it goes well tomorrow. Once he is dropped off, I would ignore all contact off her.


----------



## Chuffy99 (1 January 2016)

Been popping in for any update, good luck tomorrow


----------



## Leo Walker (1 January 2016)

good luck tomorrow!


----------



## MrsMozart (1 January 2016)

Everything crossed lass for all points.


----------



## dizzyneddy (1 January 2016)

Well l hope things go ok, remember you have done the best you can & you have your new mare to enjoy bonding with. 
To me your loan horses owner is feeling bitter at the end of the day she was fully aware that you might not purchase the horse at the end of the loan but it didn't stop her buying another horse so she should have been prepared that she may have two horses to pay livery for. 
In the long run l think you've done the right thing & you'll see if her threats to sue are idle or real. Just hand over the horse, refrain from any confrontation & severe any further contact with her you've got 2016 to look forward to with your new horse & you can erase the stress that you have suffered recently.


----------



## Carefreegirl (1 January 2016)

Been following but not commented. Good luck tomorrow, might be worth taking a few pictures of the horse before you drop off just in case the owner a few weeks down the line says the horse was in poor condition, feet weren't looked after etc. 

Good luck with new horse - once that thumb heals :smile3:


----------



## blackhor2e (2 January 2016)

Ouch at the thumb, but so glad you are having a good time with your new mare. That's what it is all about, I do hope the drop off today works out okay for you.


----------



## southerncomfort (2 January 2016)

Good luck for today.  Don't engage with the silly woman if at all possible.  Just hand the horse back and leave.  She make all the threats in the world but it still doesn't make her right!

Your new mare sound fab!


----------



## miss_c (2 January 2016)

Thinking of you today Bav, hope all goes well.


----------



## Cinnamontoast (2 January 2016)

Thinking of you today: I echo southerncomfort, drop him off, don't engage. If she wants to start something, tell her you've also had legal advice, the contract ended 31 December and that's it.


----------



## Penny Less (2 January 2016)

Woman is making empty threats, nothing will come of it.  Hope things go OK with return of horse.


----------



## Red-1 (2 January 2016)

Another person supporting you today. X


----------



## Mariposa (2 January 2016)

Good luck!


----------



## Peregrine Falcon (2 January 2016)

All the best for a stress free as possible drop off.


----------



## dibbin (2 January 2016)

Good luck Bav, hope it all goes as well as possible today.


----------



## Nativelover (2 January 2016)

Good luck, hope it goes ok and it's not too stressful for you.


----------



## Mahoganybay (2 January 2016)

Good luck, awful, stressful situation. Am sure there will be a collective sigh of relief when the horse is delivered back.


----------



## atlantis (2 January 2016)

I hope today went well. I've not commented before but have been thinking about you today!!!


----------



## Remi'sMum (2 January 2016)

Have been lurking/following but not previously commented. Sounds like you've had an enormous stress with this and I hope that today has gone well and you can sit back, take a deep breath, and crack on with your lovely new ponio!


----------



## Goldenstar (2 January 2016)

Bad luck with the finger  .
Hope the drop off goes ok .
Just remember her greed got her to this position .


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (2 January 2016)

I really hope it all went well Bav, today will have been rubbish but you will now be free to continue with your new mare!


----------



## Bav (2 January 2016)

So he loaded up and went off like an absolute angel. It was so upsetting, his owner was absolutely nice and pie (surprise surprise) but I was massively disheartened with the way her adult daughter handled the big pony once he had unloaded, all he'd done was try to look around and he'd had his leadrope yanked a dozen times and shouted at - I don't think it was so much him as the daughter was in a foul mood at the entire situation and incredibly rude. Was so just so gutting, I wish I could have afforded to have both, for his sake. I thought I'd feel relief, but now I'm just so worried about him!


----------



## Remi'sMum (2 January 2016)

Poor you, it's a horrid situation.

I'm sure the daughter will recover her temper soon enough, try not to worry too much. She's probably feeling a bit stupid about being involved in the situation, and that showed in her bad behaviour. Easier said than done not to worry, I know, but he's out of your hands now and you have your lovely mare to concentrate on. 

Hugs your way.


----------



## Vodkagirly (2 January 2016)

Glad you managed to return him.
Hopefully she will be nicer once she has calmed down.


----------



## Mariposa (2 January 2016)

So pleased that it all went as smoothly as it could, time to close the chapter and move on with your new horse and enjoy her!


----------



## Peregrine Falcon (3 January 2016)

Time to move on now and concentrate on your new horse (once you're mended!).  Will look forward to hearing of your progress.


----------



## Clannad48 (3 January 2016)

Glad to hear the return when better than expected, I expect the mother will have had words with the daughter once you were no longer around.  Now concentrate on getting on with your new horse (once your thumb is better)


----------

