# Legality of a person travelling in living area of horsebox



## stimpy (22 December 2015)

Can anyone advise me on the legality of a person travelling in the living area of a horsebox rather than the cab? I'm guessing it's illegal, and I would imagine that this is because of seatbelt regulations, but I wanted to know the official line. Is it a matter for the DVSA, i.e. the thing that VOSA became, or some other body?


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## Hanno Verian (22 December 2015)

I don't think its illegal, baring in mind that its not a legal requirement to have seatbelts fitted in a 7.5 ton HB, I think there was a case earlier in the year where the police attempted to prosecute someone for having a passenger travelling in the living but it was thrown out.
I think it was reported in H&H at the time...


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 December 2015)

Am sure someone will be along soon with right info, but I do know that forwards or rear facing seats require seatbelts.

Edited to add, check page 22 on the attached document https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjm57vxru_JAhWGIQ8KHbJjD_MQFggjMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bhs.org.uk%2F~%2Fmedia%2Fbhs%2Ffiles%2Fpdf-documents%2Fvosa-horsebox-guide.ashx&usg=AFQjCNEv_q4vc_xNC5BdKKvzLaSJMu2ohQ&bvm=bv.110151844,d.ZWU&cad=rja


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## stimpy (22 December 2015)

The Xmas Furry said:



			Edited to add, check page 22 on the attached document https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjm57vxru_JAhWGIQ8KHbJjD_MQFggjMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bhs.org.uk%2F~%2Fmedia%2Fbhs%2Ffiles%2Fpdf-documents%2Fvosa-horsebox-guide.ashx&usg=AFQjCNEv_q4vc_xNC5BdKKvzLaSJMu2ohQ&bvm=bv.110151844,d.ZWU&cad=rja

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That makes really interesting reading, thank you.

I have a 3.5t van conversion type horsebox and I wonder if/when this qualifies as a horsebox rather than a van. I have already had a couple of deeply frustrating conversation with the muppets on the DVLA phone lines about whether a van conversion can/should be registered as a livestock carrier or not. I've also had a 3.5t coachbuilt box and  wonder when the groom's area of a rear facing horsebox qualifies as living rather than horse area and whether this matters. This whole area seems to be a minefield and it is very difficult to find definitive answers.


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## EQUIDAE (22 December 2015)

The rules are that only if there are sideways facing seats and forward/rear facing seats must have seatbelts. There must also be a cut through from the cab into the living to qualify.


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## ROG (22 December 2015)

It only becomes a legal issue if it is dangerous at the time of being stopped by the law

This was a case presented to the Leicester magistrates court within the last 3 years and was thrown out because it was not deemed dangerous at the time of being pulled over by the cops
There was a person or persons sitting on the bench in the living area
The CPS decided not to appeal that decision


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## ROG (22 December 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			The rules are that only if there are sideways facing seats and forward/rear facing seats must have seatbelts. There must also be a cut through from the cab into the living to qualify.
		
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Only front forward facing seats are legally required to have seatbelts fitted 

The cut through seems correct otherwise the rear would be regarded as a cargo only area


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## EQUIDAE (22 December 2015)

ROG said:



			Only front forward facing seats are legally required to have seatbelts fitted 

The cut through seems correct otherwise the rear would be regarded as a cargo only area
		
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A lot of 3.5t livings are behind the horses which is why I mentioned it.


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## smja (22 December 2015)

I think you would still be ok behind the horses as long as you could alert the driver to any problems - i.e. shout if you fall etc.


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## stimpy (22 December 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			A lot of 3.5t livings are behind the horses which is why I mentioned it.
		
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Yes, this is one of the things I am trying to clarify.


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## Tiddlypom (22 December 2015)

There are similar issues re passengers and seatbelts in motorhomes.
http://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/...usage-new-laws-latest-regulation-comply-6905/

'Motorhomes manufactured post 2006

Motorhomes manufactured after January 2006 must have at least two point safety belts for all designated seats (the driver and specified passenger still requires three point system). The seats that are designated for travel must be identified. As in a motorcar rear passengers in motorhomes will be required to use designated seats and seat belts. Sideways seats cannot be designated as travel seats.

Sideways facing seats

In April 2012 the legislation that relates to the use of sideways facing seats was adopted. European Whole Vehicle Type Approval Regulations prohibit the use of side facing seats as travel seats, stating that Research has shown that it is not possible to provide side-facing seats with safety belts ensuring the same level of safety to the occupants as front-facing seats. For safety reasons, it is necessary to ban those seats in certain categories of vehicles.'


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## Shay (22 December 2015)

Well done Tiddley Pom!  I've never heard of someone trying to travel on those rear living sections.  The horse's head sticks over into them on most models and I've not seen one with any proper seating. I suspect - as there is no connection with the cab section - that it is a cargo area and therefore not legal to travel in.  Other than an interesting academic question - was there a reason why you wanted to OP?


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## stimpy (22 December 2015)

Shay said:



			Other than an interesting academic question - was there a reason why you wanted to OP?
		
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A couple of months ago one of my horses, a seasoned traveller, attempted to go over the breastbar in a 3.5t coachbuilt rear facing box. (Thankfully a shelf saved her from getting as far as her stifles and by some miracle she came out of the whole thing unhurt.) She has travelled since without incident but always with another horse, and I am thinking about how to make her first solo journey as stress-free as possible. If it was legal I would sit with her in the groom's area in front of her head on a sideways facing bench seat.

A few years ago I was without transport and had to return a pony to the Blue Cross. I paid a transporter to move him and the transporter suggested that I sit in the back with the pony who was unused to travelling to keep him calm .  It worked and I did it happily (whilst also recognising that it wasn't the safest thing in the word to do) but it got me thinking about the legality of it.  In this case it was another rear facing 3.5 coachbuilt lorry. I also know of several people travel with their kids lolling about in the living of a 7.5t box , so I was wondering about how the law in this context applies to horseboxes.


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## EQUIDAE (22 December 2015)

smja said:



			I think you would still be ok behind the horses as long as you could alert the driver to any problems - i.e. shout if you fall etc.
		
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No it is illegal


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## milliepops (22 December 2015)

stimpy said:



			A couple of months ago one of my horses, a seasoned traveller, attempted to go over the breastbar in a 3.5t coachbuilt rear facing box. (Thankfully a shelf saved her from getting as far as her stifles and by some miracle she came out of the whole thing unhurt.) She has travelled since without incident but always with another horse, and I am thinking about how to make her first solo journey as stress-free as possible. If it was legal I would sit with her in the groom's area in front of her head on a sideways facing bench seat.

A few years ago I was without transport and had to return a pony to the Blue Cross. I paid a transporter to move him and the transporter suggested that I sit in the back with the pony who was unused to travelling to keep him calm .  It worked and I did it happily (whilst also recognising that it wasn't the safest thing in the word to do) but it got me thinking about the legality of it.  In this case it was another rear facing 3.5 coachbuilt lorry. I also know of several people travel with their kids lolling about in the living of a 7.5t box , so I was wondering about how the law in this context applies to horseboxes.
		
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Sorry to hear about your horse's accident.  I think many people  have travelled in the horse area with a nervous traveller - I know I have, though I did know at the time that it was not legal and I wouldn't do it routinely  

Is it your box? Having had one accident like this I'd strongly suggest you get an anti-climb barrier fitted if so.  I had one retro-fitted to my box for a small sum and it provides complete peace of mind - I'd never put one of mine into a box that didn't either have one of those or a full wall between horse and groom area.


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## stimpy (22 December 2015)

milliepops said:



			Is it your box? Having had one accident like this I'd strongly suggest you get an anti-climb barrier fitted if so.  I had one retro-fitted to my box for a small sum and it provides complete peace of mind - I'd never put one of mine into a box that didn't either have one of those or a full wall between horse and groom area.
		
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I totally agree milliepops  I sold the horsebox that the incident happened in and have now had another one built to my spec with emergency exit and possibility for anti-weave grills fitted above the breast bar. The incident happened because of a very unlucky set of circumstances but I am not taking any chances as it is most definitely not an experience I ever want to repeat.


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## milliepops (22 December 2015)

I bet, scary stuff. Incidentally i was totally put off anti weave grills when I got mine - hate to spread further worries but I was told that they can be even worse than nothing if a horse wants to go over the bar. Possibilities for getting trapped are worse   make it as solid as you can


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## Tiddlypom (22 December 2015)

As above, an anti climb barrier such as MP suggests, or consider changing to a long stall or 'stud box' such as the one pictured (which I am lusting after.). No breast bar to jump.
From the horses side:-







And the living area, small but perfectly formed:-.


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## HelenS (22 December 2015)

Just recently, in a bit of an unusual situation where I had to carry more than two passengers in my Equi-Trek Sonic, my OH opted to sit in the grooms part at the back. The Sonic has a full height wall and door separating the horse and grooms area. It was only a very short journey and whilst it passed without incident, he did decant out of the rear door at the end of the journey looking and feeling very green. Apparently you feel every bump, surface camber, cats-eye, and if you are prone to travel sickness, as he is,  it's a recipe for disaster!

I drive carefully, as we all do with our precious equine cargo, but after his experience it made me feel a bit sorry for the horse. We tend to forget we sit on nice sprung seats with a full view of the road in front of us. Mind you I used to like sitting in the living area of my 7.5 ton box that I had many years ago.


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## milliepops (22 December 2015)

^^ you're dead right Helen, I travelled in the living of a 7.5t recently (not cut through so no view ahead) as running late so I hopped in to get changed for a show. It was AWFUL. 
I can hear every movement behind me in my 3.5t, you do get instant feedback if you drive badly  I am amazed horses continue to load and travel as well as they do though


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## michelledud (2 January 2016)

It is only legal to sit in the living area whilst moving if there is a cut through from the living to the cab. Anything else is illegal &#128513;


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## peaceandquiet1 (2 January 2016)

I knew a family who put their kids in the living when there was no cut through. They alsohatwo horse trailer and used to put three in it, a Shetland in the nose area! They thought that was fine-in fact lots of people do that too.


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## popsdosh (2 January 2016)

horsemadmum1 said:



			I knew a family who put their kids in the living when there was no cut through. They alsohatwo horse trailer and used to put three in it, a Shetland in the nose area! They thought that was fine-in fact lots of people do that too.
		
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They will be fine till they get caught !


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## ycbm (2 January 2016)

I don't think there's anything illegal, or unsafe as far as I can see, about putting a small pony in the front of a two horse trailer with two already in it, as long as the whole thing is not overweight. In fact, there used to be a three horse Rice trailer sold to do just that. My friend has one she now keeps chickens in.


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## peaceandquiet1 (2 January 2016)

One for ROG maybe, but if a trailer is designed to take two I doubt the manufacturers would sanction a third being put in the front and there is no frame around the pony to contain it. The latches on the door and ramp are not designed to take a pony's weight are they. Plus the bigger two used to bite the little one and drop hay all over it.


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## popsdosh (2 January 2016)

ycbm said:



			I don't think there's anything illegal, or unsafe as far as I can see, about putting a small pony in the front of a two horse trailer with two already in it, as long as the whole thing is not overweight. In fact, there used to be a three horse Rice trailer sold to do just that. My friend has one she now keeps chickens in.
		
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Sorry I thought they meant kids in the trailer!!! must read more carefully.


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## ycbm (2 January 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Sorry I thought they meant kids in the trailer!!! must read more carefully.
		
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They said both. You're right about the kids


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## Tiddlypom (2 January 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Sorry I thought they meant kids in the trailer!!! must read more carefully.
		
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My friend and I used to travel in the trailer with two ponies up when her Dad towed us to Pony Club activities with his tractor! Was almost certainly illegal even back in the 70s!

It made me a very careful tower from the off, though, when I got my first trailer. You feel every corner, change of speed and pothole much more than you can imagine.

The Rice Beaufort triple was specially designed to take three. The axle positioning was modified from the Beaufort double. Having an extra load, even say large water carriers in the trailer front means the trailer/towing vehicle nose weight will probably be exceeded. This will affect handing and could bend the tow hitch and/or damage the towing vehicle's suspension.


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## peaceandquiet1 (2 January 2016)

Tiddlypom said:



			My friend and I used to travel in the trailer with two ponies up when her Dad towed us to Pony Club activities with his tractor! Was almost certainly illegal even back in the 70s!

It made me a very careful tower from the off, though, when I got my first trailer. You feel every corner, change of speed and pothole much more than you can imagine.

The Rice Beaufort triple was specially designed to take three. The axle positioning was modified from the Beaufort double. Having an extra load, even say large water carriers in the trailer front means the trailer/towing vehicle nose weight will probably be exceeded. This will affect handing and could bend the tow hitch and/or damage the towing vehicle's suspension.
		
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Better put than I did


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## ILuvCowparsely (2 January 2016)

ROG said:



			Only front forward facing seats are legally required to have seatbelts fitted 

The cut through seems correct otherwise the rear would be regarded as a cargo only area
		
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My horsebox does not have them nor has it ever had them it is a 1998 iveco cargo, I was told by the testing station that only if they are fitted are you supposed to wear them.


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## FfionWinnie (2 January 2016)

I can't stop reading the title as "legalities of a travelling person living in a horse box" &#128563;

Personally I would do as advised and fit the anticlimb bars.  If she goes bananas and you can't calm her you won't stop her jumping it again by being there and she might take you out while she does it!

To make it less stressful get her used to regularly standing in the box shut up as if in transit but stay stationary for long periods of time eating a hay net. Once she accepts that without a carry on, start moving. 

Lastly I have travelled a mini Shetland in the front of an ifor. You could fit two in mine, plus the tack pack as he is small and it is a 511. I locked the groom's door but he doesn't move anyway so really I couldn't see a safety issue at all. My vehicle is well up to the weight and the mini doesn't remotely bring us near to the trailer's capacity - he probably weighs about the same as two big 17.2hh's heads and my other two are 14.2 and 15.2 so their heads don't encroach too much on the nose anyway in terms of dropping hay. He's out grown now so unlikely I will do such dastardly things again (incidentally trailer warning labels also state not to tie horses to the outside of it, don't think many people heed that warning!).


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