# new horse turns out to be a rearer-advice please



## Polos (11 September 2012)

A while ago I posted about my new horse rearing me off, well things got better for a while he was working really nicely in the school until he started to go funny again (bouncing and headshaking) I called the dentist and he sorted his teeth out and the osteopath who found some tightness in his neck but he 'manipulated' his neck and gave us an exercise programme which we have been sticking to, saddler is booked for a couple of weeks time. Tonight I decided to go for a hack (he has been hacking twice with me  at the yard before- one in company and one by himself) and my mum walked with me on foot. We got halfway round our route before he started acting up (bouncing, headshaking and spooking) I put my leg and managed to ride him through it so we carried on (we where on our way back at this point) and we where almost home, I could see the yard and he just went straight up and over, it was so quick I had no time to react or grab the neckstrap, he just went straight over and landed on me. He wacked his head pretty hard on a gate on the way down and scraped a fair bit of fur off his face. 

I just don't know what to do about this, he just goes straight up without any warning, I have owned him for about 2 months now and he has reared so many times I have lost count.

He goes out for 8 hours a day, he is only fed a handfull of hi-fi twice a day and haylage and he does some sort of exercise everyday.  

My mum says he has to go and tbh I agree with her, we are going to ring up the dealers in the next few days but we don't know wether to get the bloods tested first, any advice?


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## Honey08 (11 September 2012)

You poor thing.  There is nothing worse than a horse that goes up and over, its so frightening.  Hope you're not too shaken up.

Have you had any lessons or had anyone experienced see the horse act up like this?  Not condoning it at all, its totally unacceptable, but just wondered if anyone else had actually seen it and offered any advice...


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (11 September 2012)

Jeezus, this horse is bl@ddy dangerous, full stop, and once upon a time horses like this got sent straight to kennels and no messing. 

I was always taught in Pony Club that if anything reared it was "get off, stay off", and get kennels on the phone". 

Don't, please, get on this horse again, or let anyone else. You've been very lucky, don't tempt providence.  If he was mis-sold to you by a dealer then send him back PDQ and create hell if they're difficult about it. 

OK so there MAY be a possibility that he could be helped by an expert; but unless you ARE that expert, then follow your mum's advice and get rid. Do it immediately before you start getting fond of him/feeling sorry for him.


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## Always Henesy (11 September 2012)

I hate to sound harsh, but before the horse kills you/itself or both - call it a day.
I would never sell/pass on/loan etc a horse that reared like this. I understand that there could be pain/discomfort/neurological issues here or imprinted behaviour. Either way to rear and go right over means a horse that has lost any self preservation instincts.
I hate to say it, but unless you are happy with a field ornament - pts is the kindest option for the horse. 
Did this horse come from a dealer?


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## Jewkes (11 September 2012)

I had my confidence shattered by a rearer and it took me 10 years to get on again. Don't let that happen to you.


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## Polos (11 September 2012)

The first time he reared with me and almost went over I had my lunge lessons with my instructor and gradually went off the lunge. My instructor has been with me all the way and has helped me from the very beginning. A lady who works and liveries at the yard was driving past tonight and saw it happen and  and she stopped her car and helped catch him, she was such a help. Another livery was hacking and also saw it happen. 

My instructor agrees that this is getting dangerous now and has advised us to ring them up. 

We bought him as something I could BS on and do Pony club whic is what I have always wanted to do.


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## ForeverBroke_ (11 September 2012)

Ditto the above - if they have no regard for their own safety they sure as hell don't give a stuff about the rider. 

Sorry, but don't get back on  Its really not worth the suffering should you not be so lucky next time.


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## Polos (11 September 2012)

yes, he did come from a dealer pm me if you would like the name. He was evented by an event rider beforehand and did BYEH. He is very talented but is also proving to be dangerous.


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## JANANI (11 September 2012)

Please get rid before you seriously injure yourself. I always said I would never own a rearer. My young horse reared last year and I ended up breaking my arm. I wish I had listened to my own advice.  Is it possible for you to send him back?


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## Polos (11 September 2012)

We specifically asked for a horse that didn't rear and was safe. I think thats what we are going to do, We will be contacting the dealers shortly. 

Thank god I was wearing a body protector tonight, I probably would have broken something.


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## Always Henesy (11 September 2012)

The dealer is unlikely to take the horse back and if they do don't expect anywhere near the money you paid for it back. Or they may offer to exchange it for something else - and after this experience would you want another one of their horses?
If the dealer did take the horse back - they will pass it on to someone else and the horse could possibly kill the next owner. Do you want that on your conscience?
Sorry but pts is the only option for a horse like this or if you have the money to support a field ornament, keep it.
But DO NOT get on this horse again.


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## Natz88 (11 September 2012)

Ditto others, it's not worth the risk & I think your mum is right. There is no point in knocking your confidence even more, as it sounds like you had a lucky escape today.

My pony was a rearer when I got him & it's not nice at all I have had him nearly 7yrs & he still does it on the very odd occasion when he gets excited, but it was constant when I first got him & I would NEVER go through it again equally I wouldn't sell him as I know he has got it in him to do it. 

Hope you get it sorted asap & keep us posted on what happens.


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## I.Camilla (11 September 2012)

Tricky one. This is why I get a tad upset when people brag / show pictures of their rearing horse as if they are far more superior than everyone else for staying on. But what's stopping the horse going over backwards and taking a life? Fine line really, some just don't realise. 

Hope this has not knocked you too much in finding the right horse. No idea on what to suggest though. I doubt the dealers will take him back easily and as others have said... What will they do? Sell him on to someone else and put them at risk, but this time you will be in the know also which makes it harder. 

If they did know though, how sickening! Do not get back on the horse either way. Hope you come to some conclusion soon and do whats best.


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## Polos (11 September 2012)

I don't want to get back on him incase it happens again. 

To be honest I might just give up competeing, I can't find the right horse. I might just get a happy hacker.


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## I.Camilla (11 September 2012)

Polos said:



			I don't want to get back on him incase it happens again. 

To be honest I might just give up competeing, I can't find the right horse. I might just get a happy hacker.
		
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From the sounds of it, there's a good chance he will do it again so the last thing you want to be doing is getting back on, that's for sure. 

I don't know what to suggest with regards to the horse as it's not my place but obviously sending it back could also put someone else at risk and I can't have things like that on my conscience. 

Have a break for a while, ride a few friends horses and re-establish your confidence that not all horses are this dangerous. You must be feeling terrible and I can't begin to imagine how much stress it is right now but try not to be too rational.


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## Slightlyconfused (11 September 2012)

I agree don't send him to the dealers as they will just send him on.

Is there a possibility of having a lameness work up done and checks over his back? Also check for ulcers? 

Also if he was evented by someone could you not get into contact with them and find out his history?


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## Polos (11 September 2012)

slightlyconfused said:



			I agree don't send him to the dealers as they will just send him on.

Is there a possibility of having a lameness work up done and checks over his back? Also check for ulcers? 

Also if he was evented by someone could you not get into contact with them and find out his history?
		
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He has only just had his back seen by an osteopath (last wednesday) haven't thought of lameness (doesn't look unsound when trotted up) or ulcers. 


I suppose its worth a try to see what she says.


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## flyingfeet (11 September 2012)

Did the horse hover and the fall over or do a total backflip? If the latter I would call it a day, but if the horse just lost their balance then perhaps time to talk to the dealer for a swap


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## Booboos (11 September 2012)

So glad you were not hurt! A rearer who goes over is probably the most dangerous thing a horse can do. Please don't get on him again.

The horse has a very serious physical or psychological problem. You could go down the route of figuring out what it is but it would cost a lot of money and there is no guarantee you would have a horse you could ride at the end of the day. 

The dealer should take the horse back as it's not fit for purpose and if he gives you any trouble you could go down the legal route. Have you been in touch with the dealer at all? Is there any indication they would take the horse back?

As mentioned above the dealer may try to re-sell him, but it's a lot to ask of you to keep him as a field ornament for the next 20 years.


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## thinkitwasjune (11 September 2012)

Having had a chronic rearer myself, my advice is not to get on him again. In the last few weeks before I got rid of my boy, I stopped riding and just lunged him every day. It's far too dangerous. Hope you get it sorted one way or the other x


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## zaminda (11 September 2012)

Don't get on him again. My one hate is rearers, especially the ones that literally go straight over without warning. If he is insured get vet to check for kissing spines,as I have come across a horse whose reaction to them was as you descirbe. If there is no physical underlying issue, then I would PTS if he can't stay with you as a field ornament. If you pass him on not only would you feel very guilty if he injured someone, but you could end up in court, even if you are honest about him.


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## Honey08 (11 September 2012)

I would definately be contacting the dealer and seeing what they said.  Cross the bridge about whether to send it back or not when you've spoken to them.  At the very least they should know what has happened.  

Don't feel down.  It doesn't mean you have to have a happy hacker, just that this is not the right horse.  Don't get on him again, find something else to ride for a while, find the fun again...xx


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## Toby_Zaphod (11 September 2012)

Always Henesy said:



			If the dealer did take the horse back - they will pass it on to someone else and the horse could possibly kill the next owner. Do you want that on your conscience?
		
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This is ridiculous........ the dealer has sold a dangerous horse to this person & you expect that person to stand the financial loss & not return the horse as you believe they will be responsible for what the dealer does with the returned horse & will be responsible for any injury the horse may cause in the future??? .......this is ridiculous!!!

The horse needs to go back & you need to get your money back. Take legal action if you need to. Don't ride the horse again & quite frankly ignore Always Henesy, you will be in no way responsible for what the dealer does with the horse in the future!!

AH says to have the horse pts, no, it is up to the dealer to do that after they have refunded you. You should not be out of pocket because of this.


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## pipsqueek (11 September 2012)

Don't get on him again, it's not just a one-off rear, sounds like it is an on-going problem and it's really not worth you injuring yourself, hopefully you will have some comeback as you bought him from a dealer, not a private sale.  None of us likes to give up on a horse but sometimes your safety has to come first!  And wonder why he ended up in a dealers yard in the first place


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## Kallibear (11 September 2012)

Difficult decision 

Regardless of what you do with him, do not get back on him. Unless you can pinpoint a reason for him rearing, you cannot take steps to prevent it. Next time he may kill you.

Finance muddies the water. I would spend as much as I can afford of trying to work out the problem but it it can't be found or fixed he would be PTS. I would never allowed him out of my hands because someone else will try to ride him. They could easily be killed  

However I do understand that you've only just bought him from a dealer and I don't blame you if you want to get your money back. In which case you need to take it up with the person you bought him from as they should never have sold him in the first place.


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## Rose Folly (11 September 2012)

I am going to stick up for the horse on this one! But firstly, like everyone else, I've no idea why he's doing it. But I just want to tell you a story.

A friend of mine - a man - some years ago had one of the best LDR horses you could wish for. I was at the NEC in Birmingham when he went up to collect about 6 awards (because he was a lazy so-and-so and enjoyed the riding, not the rosettes). 

I had come back into riding after a 2-year break. I'm an adequate rider only, not nearly as good as I should have been for the amount of riding, PC and hunting I did as a child an teenager - just, in my own eyes, adequate.

Anyway this man, who lived nearby, realised I had ridden, lent me one of his horses, a hunter, to hack and generally enjoy, and in time he trusted me to keep the LDR horse fit for him between rides, as he was a very busy man. This I did happily for years.

He told me he had bought the horse as an 8-year old. The horse had been entire, had raced, and had been gelded at 7. He had been an absoolute bxxxxd; one day A friend of my friend was riding him, and the horse, who was prone to rearing a bit anyway,  reared straight up, over and crashed down. The friend, mercifully, was unhurt, and got straight back on. That horse never reared again. He lived to be 33, and was competing well into his 20s. 

dO bear thIS in mind. It is SO easy to write a rearer off. I had a rearing poiny as a child. It only reared on the hunting field, and was perfect anywhere else. Another new poiny started out rearing like a circus horse, but turned out to be the best hunter, horse or pony, I ever had. It is dead scar, and I 'd be the first to admit it, but it is often quite simple things that trigger it - over-excitement, boredom, or under-exercise.

I most sincerely hope that you haven't lost your nerve. It strikes me that you and he may just not be right for one another. He sounds as if he might do better in a more active, hacking, hunting, LDR or Endurance family, with plenty to stimulate him. You say you had only hacked him twice in 2 months? That is simply not fair to the horse.


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## wallykissmas (11 September 2012)

How awful, hope your ok.

Have you contacted any of his previous owners to see if he has always done it hence being sold on ?

I wouldn't want to take home back to the dealer as he would be sold on and I would hate to think I could have prevented possibly someone's death but would looking into legal recovering funds from the dealer as if this is what the horse does regularly I would have him Pts.

If you can't get details for previous owners I'm sure if you put their details on the post someone could assist you.
Directory enquiries , 192.com and companies house are always helpful sites to use.


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## Oriel (11 September 2012)

Sorry, I haven't read all the other replies - apologies if this is a repeat of what's been said.

I bought a horse who seemed to be what I wanted - a schoolmaster. I got on him a day after purchase... he was really spooky in the school but I just put it down to settling down. I took him out with my husband walking alongside - all ok but a little hesitant. On the third day I thought I'd take him on a little hack. I mounted and took a couple of steps away from the mounting block when he went vertical and over. I don't remember much about the fall other than seeing his mane in my face but I broke my wrist and severely bruised my hip where he landed on it  (I now have long-term problems with it) and my head. I had a hat on but I hit the concrete (we'd not left the yard) with such velocity that I literally saw stars.

I sent him straight back to the dealer and he replaced him with another horse who I still have. I would NEVER have a rearer - destroyer of confidence, breaker of bones


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## maisie06 (11 September 2012)

Polos said:



			I don't want to get back on him incase it happens again. 

To be honest I might just give up competeing, I can't find the right horse. I might just get a happy hacker.
		
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And this happy hacker will probably turn out to be your jack of all trades horse of a lifetime!! Get rid of the rearer and get something you can enjoy.


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## Always Henesy (11 September 2012)

Toby_Zaphod said:



			This is ridiculous........ the dealer has sold a dangerous horse to this person & you expect that person to stand the financial loss & not return the horse as you believe they will be responsible for what the dealer does with the returned horse & will be responsible for any injury the horse may cause in the future??? .......this is ridiculous!!!

The horse needs to go back & you need to get your money back. Take legal action if you need to. Don't ride the horse again & quite frankly ignore Always Henesy, you will be in no way responsible for what the dealer does with the horse in the future!!

AH says to have the horse pts, no, it is up to the dealer to do that after they have refunded you. You should not be out of pocket because of this.
		
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I will thank you to keep the tone of your post slightly less aggressive...the OP is well within her rights to ignore me. The OP has asked for advice regarding her rearing horse. I have given my advice and she is perfectly entitled to ignore it.

The dealer is unlikely to give her the money back - have you any experience of dealers at all? Legal action is a possibility, but costly and to what end?
Do you seriously think the dealer would do the right thing by the horse if they did give her the money back? 

If I was the OP I would not have the potential death or serious injury of another human being on my conscience if the horse were to go back to the dealer. But maybe that is because I care about others.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (11 September 2012)

Have to say having had a serial rearer (who I managed to get to stop doing it!!!) who napped badly and spun on a sixpence whilst in the air, with a bit of work and hard graft she turned into a nice sane hacker.

Have to say blood sweat and tears went into it along with LOTS of frustration and getting off and on to get her moving forwards but perseverance won out.

I eventually had to just leave her no other option BUT to go forwards but learn she did, took me a good few months but never looked back after it.


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## Polos (11 September 2012)

I most sincerely hope that you haven't lost your nerve. It strikes me that you and he may just not be right for one another. He sounds as if he might do better in a more active, hacking, hunting, LDR or Endurance family, with plenty to stimulate him. You say you had only hacked him twice in 2 months? That is simply not fair to the horse.[/QUOTE]

No I haven't lost my nerve, but I'm not risking my safety anymore. He is in an active home, I went away for a month 3 weeks after I got him and my instructor took him out on 2 hour hacks 3 times a week. Only since the ostepath came have things slowed down a bit, we have been trying to pinpoint the problem which is why he has not done as much as I would of liked. I mysef have hacked twice but my friend/instructor has hacked him a fair bit a week. 

I'm sorry but your comment has really really annoyed me. I have tried so hard to make things work. He has had plenty to stimulate him, he has had plenty of exercise daily. But a combination of waiting 2 weeks for a saddler and being put on a programme by the ostepath meant he has not done as much as I hoped. So don't you dare tell me he should be in a better home doing more 'stimulating' things as I have worked so so hard to make this work, and thanks for baisically calling me a mean owner, thankyou very much! but obviously what I have been doing is not enough in your standards.....


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## rhino (11 September 2012)

Toby_Zaphod said:



			This is ridiculous........ 
 .......this is ridiculous!!!
 quite frankly ignore Always Henesy
		
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Slightly unnecessary IMO  AH does have a valid point, all we know is that the horse is currently dangerous for the OP, not why..

OP, just had a look through your previous threads. You've mentioned bucking and spooking before, but not sure you've mentioned rearing?

Is this sort of correct

Horse is a 6 year old, was obviously working fairly well in the past to be competing BYEH as a 5 year old. 
Bought from a dealer, 'bargain for the quality' Do you know how long he'd been at the dealers?
Difficult from the start, spooky and difficult, even on the ground. Moved yards recently.
Saddle problems meaning the horse has had quite a lot of time off - did you get the saddle sorted before your holiday/did your instructor ride him while you were away?
Also had dental and back issues.

I'm so sorry you are having such a hard time of it, and I quite agree that you shouldn't get back on the horse. Just trying to put some pieces together here  I feel sorry for the pair of you.


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## Goldenstar (11 September 2012)

Poor horse , don't get back on him .
I think I would return him to the dealer.
Did he have a five stage vetting when you bought hiim ?
Horses rear for many reasons the difficultly is in teasing out why .
But OP this not a job for you .


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## Toby_Zaphod (11 September 2012)

Always Henesy said:



			I will thank you to keep the tone of your post slightly less aggressive...the OP is well within her rights to ignore me. The OP has asked for advice regarding her rearing horse. I have given my advice and she is perfectly entitled to ignore it.

The dealer is unlikely to give her the money back - have you any experience of dealers at all? Legal action is a possibility, but costly and to what end?
Do you seriously think the dealer would do the right thing by the horse if they did give her the money back?

If I was the OP I would not have the potential death or serious injury of another human being on my conscience if the horse were to go back to the dealer. But maybe that is because I care about others.
		
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The post was not aggressive, it was factual & I do have experience of dealers. If the buyer does nothing regarding this matter then the dealer pockets a nice little earner & the buyer stands the loss which they should not have to do. What the dealer does after the horse is returned to him is up to the dealer, it is nothing to do with the buyer. You are not the OP, you may be able to afford to lose your money on a horse purchase, pay for the animal to be PTS plus pay for the disposal of the carcase but possibly the OP cannot & certainly should not have to.

You say 'I have given my advice & she is perfectly entitled to ignore me', & I gave my opinion as well that infact she should.


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## Meowy Catkin (11 September 2012)

Could you be blocking him with your hands? If you are feeling nervous, you might not even realise that you are doing it. I only ask because I've seen horses that are not rearers, go right up when blocked by the reins but pushed on with the leg.


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## Polos (11 September 2012)

rhino said:



			Slightly unnecessary IMO  AH does have a valid point, all we know is that the horse is currently dangerous for the OP, not why..

OP, just had a look through your previous threads. You've mentioned bucking and spooking before, but not sure you've mentioned rearing?

Is this sort of correct

Horse is a 6 year old, was obviously working fairly well in the past to be competing BYEH as a 5 year old. 
Bought from a dealer, 'bargain for the quality' Do you know how long he'd been at the dealers?
Difficult from the start, spooky and difficult, even on the ground. Moved yards recently.
Saddle problems meaning the horse has had quite a lot of time off - did you get the saddle sorted before your holiday/did your instructor ride him while you were away?
Also had dental and back issues.

I'm so sorry you are having such a hard time of it, and I quite agree that you shouldn't get back on the horse. Just trying to put some pieces together here  I feel sorry for the pair of you.
		
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I thought I had mentioned rearing in another post, but I read through them and I obviously haven't, my mistake! 

the bit about him doing BYEH is corrrect. He had been at the dealers a month.

He is lovley on the ground and is not difficult to handle at all. We got over the spookiness in the school and the previous times I hacked him past tractors etc... Yes he moved from the dealers to my yard. 

We thought it was his saddle but it was actually his neck (the osteo could not find any sore patches that would show the saddle didn't fit). While I was away my instructor stopped riding him halfway through the month I was away and lunged him as he was acting up and we where waiting for an apointment. I have been following the osteos programme since I got back- lunging in a pessoa behind the vertical 4 times a week and hacking twice a week. In total he has probably only had about 2 weeks of doing no exercise (saddler and osteo etc) but all the rest of the time he has either been lunged, hacked or schooled.

He did have dental problems but his teeth have been done and the osteo said his back was fine-it was his neck.


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## Polos (11 September 2012)

Faracat said:



			Could you be blocking him with your hands? If you are feeling nervous, you might not even realise that you are doing it. I only ask because I've seen horses that are not rearers, go right up when blocked by the reins but pushed on with the leg.
		
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as far as I'm aware no, I have been trying to give with the hands and leg on at the first sign of him acting up like me and my instructor where working on the first time he reared with me.


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## Goldenstar (11 September 2012)

Faracat said:



			Could you be blocking him with your hands? If you are feeling nervous, you might not even realise that you are doing it. I only ask because I've seen horses that are not rearers, go right up when blocked by the reins but pushed on with the leg.
		
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Me too Faracat, but you cant assess this issue online OP needs to stay safe and send the horse back to the dealer.


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## Rose Folly (11 September 2012)

Polos, I'm sorry if I upset you, and it certainly wasn't meant to be patronising - especially as I gave away to a more suitable home a horse who I couldn't stop, but the new people had no trouble with whatsover - quite galling, I think you'd agree.

You didn't make clear that your instructor had been taking the horse out hacking. You only said what YOU had done - i.e hacked out twice - so obviously I take that back entirely.

But as another post (thank god, as I thought I'd be the only one to say it) told  you, they had a rearer which they got right. It needn't be the end of the road. As I told you, I've ridden three rearers (probably more but I don't recall the others). One pony reared to his dying day, one gave it up as soon as he went hunting and NEVER reared again, and the Lond Distance horse had stopped rearing long before I ever got on his back.

What I don't think, but maybe I missed it? you've told us is what your instructor says?

I've ridden, hunted, hunter-trialled, done non-competive LDR for over 60 years now. I've ridden over 70 horses whose names I can remember, and probably more. My gut feeling is that you don't want to progress with this horse. So either have it out with the dealer (which may be difficult); persevere with him yourself (which I don't think you or your mother wish to do); find him another jockey to see if that sorts the problem, or, as many on here have said, sadly, PTS.


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## springtime13 (11 September 2012)

If he was mine, I'd probably turn him away for a bit, out 24/7 and let him chill out and ensure the neck was sorted. Meanwhile, I'd be chasing up previous owners and finding out why they passed him on. You never know, he's young, scopey and not feeling right with his neck, he may still come good, possibly with another rider who clicked with him.


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## northernsoul (11 September 2012)

whats he like with another rider sorry if you have to repeat yourself too many posts he could be testing you you have done well staying on if you bought off a dealer go to trading standards


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## Meowy Catkin (11 September 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Me too Faracat, but you cant assess this issue online OP needs to stay safe and send the horse back to the dealer.
		
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I do agree with you, staying safe is the number one thing here. 




			as far as I'm aware no, I have been trying to give with the hands and leg on at the first sign of him acting up like me and my instructor where working on the first time he reared with me.
		
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This does not sound like the right horse for you at all, he needs to go back to the dealer.


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## Always Henesy (11 September 2012)

Toby_Zaphod said:



			The post was not aggressive, it was factual & I do have experience of dealers. If the buyer does nothing regarding this matter then the dealer pockets a nice little earner & the buyer stands the loss which they should not have to do. What the dealer does after the horse is returned to him is up to the dealer, it is nothing to do with the buyer. You are not the OP, you may be able to afford to lose your money on a horse purchase, pay for the animal to be PTS plus pay for the disposal of the carcase but possibly the OP cannot & certainly should not have to.

You say 'I have given my advice & she is perfectly entitled to ignore me', & I gave my opinion as well that infact she should.
		
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Giving your take on a situation should not be totally dismissive of another. Your post was almost a personal attack on my view - therefore not necessary and not particularly helpful. The OP can make her own mind up. My advice was to the OP - not you.
I agree that the OP was obviously sold a horse not fit for purpose and the dealer should be governed by the sale of goods act etc etc. However, the reality is that the dealer will have known this horse was dangerous and is unlikely to take it back/offer a refund. The best the OP can hope for is an exchange and that is not a great prospect either.
The legal route is costly and difficult. Even if you are successful in court - the chances of getting your money even with a court order are slim.
This is why I will not ever buy from a dealer again.


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## Ditchjumper2 (11 September 2012)

Toby_Zaphod said:



			This is ridiculous........ the dealer has sold a dangerous horse to this person & you expect that person to stand the financial loss & not return the horse as you believe they will be responsible for what the dealer does with the returned horse & will be responsible for any injury the horse may cause in the future??? .......this is ridiculous!!!

The horse needs to go back & you need to get your money back. Take legal action if you need to. Don't ride the horse again & quite frankly ignore Always Henesy, you will be in no way responsible for what the dealer does with the horse in the future!!

AH says to have the horse pts, no, it is up to the dealer to do that after they have refunded you. You should not be out of pocket because of this.
		
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Hear, hear.


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## springtime13 (11 September 2012)

I would have also thought they'd be a time frame for returning to the dealer - 2 months + seems quite a long time. The dealer could easily argue that the problem is more recent one.


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## cptrayes (11 September 2012)

Surely it is too soon to talk of putting this horse to sleep? 

He has, at the moment, known history of rearing with only one rider, and a relatively inexperienced one in the whole scheme of things. It's not difficult to get into a doom loop of loss of confidence between rider and horse and irrespective of what physical or mental difficulties this horse has, that seems to have happened here.

OP can you send the horse to a really experienced horseman who takes on remedial work, to see if he can be sorted out? Then you will know if you can sell him with a clear conscience or not. He's obviously not the horse for you, but it does not mean that he needs to die. 

I too don't hold out much hope that the dealer will do any more for you than offer to sell him as an agent on commission for you after this length of time, but you can always try.

I hope you find a lovely happy hacker.


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## rhino (11 September 2012)

springtime13 said:



			I would have also thought they'd be a time frame for returning to the dealer - 2 months + seems quite a long time. The dealer could easily argue that the problem is more recent one.
		
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This. In answer to your OP, yes you could blood test but be aware that not everything shows up, something as simple as withholding water can quieten a horse down.

I would definitely try to speak to the old owner if you can, but be aware you may not get the whole truth - there is no way a horse competing successfully at BYEH as a 5 year old should end up at a dealer's a few months later for a 'cheap' price. 

PM me the dealer's name if you want and I will see if anything rings a bell. Would also be interested in checking his BE record/rider if you want to pm me his passport name.


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## Always Henesy (11 September 2012)

springtime13 said:



			I would have also thought they'd be a time frame for returning to the dealer - 2 months + seems quite a long time. The dealer could easily argue that the problem is more recent one.
		
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Exactly this ^^^^

I had a similar situation to the OP.

Trust me the outcome was not good. I lost a great deal of money....and still ended up with a dead horse. It took me 2 1/2 years to recover financially. 
I was not and am still not in a position to throw money away. However, by purchasing from a dealer - that is exactly what I did.
OP - I feel very bad for you and I feel very bad for the horse. None of this is your fault or the fault of the horse. It is a truly horrendous situation.


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## cptrayes (11 September 2012)

AH you didn't lose the money the horse cost you because you bought from a dealer, you lost it because you bought a bad horse, which could have happened just as easily from a private seller. There are good dealers around, and this dealer might well have taken the horse back at a month, but this long, having been going well, then it seems unlikely unless it's a very good dealer indeed. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience.


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## Goldenstar (11 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Surely it is too soon to talk of putting this horse to sleep? 

He has, at the moment, history of rearing with only one rider, and a relatively inexperienced one in the whole scheme of things. It's not difficult to get into a doom loop of loss of confidence between rider and horse and irrespective of what physical or mental difficulties this horse has, that seems to have happened here.

OP can you send the horse to a really experienced horseman who takes on remedial work, to see if he can be sorted out? Then you will know if you can sell him with a clear conscience or not. He's obviously not the horse for you, but it does not mean that he needs to die. 

I too don't hold out much hope that the dealer will do any more for you than offer to sell him as an agent on commission for you after this length of time.

I hope you find a lovely happy hacker.
		
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I aggree that after this long selling as an agent is likely to be OP's way out of 
this and Op can make sure she speaks to the purchaser so she knows the new owner knows what's what.
It's a fair way out for OP and the horse ,the horse is young and in the wrong home although I fear there may be a story behind how he ended up at the dealers being sold but he may just need a different set of circumstances to excel.


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## emma.is (11 September 2012)

Take him back and kick up merry hell OP! No matter which way you look at it you could of been killed tonight or any other time he reared.


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## Meowy Catkin (11 September 2012)

springtime13 said:



			I would have also thought they'd be a time frame for returning to the dealer - 2 months + seems quite a long time. The dealer could easily argue that the problem is more recent one.
		
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Goldenstar said:



			I aggree that after this long selling as an agent is likely to be OP's way out of 
this and Op can make sure she speaks to the purchaser so she knows the new owner knows what's what.
It's a fair way out for OP and the horse ,the horse is young and in the wrong home although I fear there may be a story behind how he ended up at the dealers being sold but he may just need a different set of circumstances to excel.
		
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Going to an experienced rider for schooling and then selling is a good idea. I agree that any potential purchasers must be made aware that he has reared.


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## Always Henesy (11 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			AH you didn't lose the money the horse cost you because you bought from a dealer, you lost it because you bought a bad horse, which could have happened just as easily from a private seller. There are good dealers around, and this dealer might well have taken the horse back at a month, but this long, having been going well, then it seems unlikely unless it's a very good dealer indeed. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience.
		
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The dealer had lied to me about the horse and it's history (I found out by tracing previous owners), it was notoriously dangerous and had put one previous owner in hospital (reared over backwards) and had an old pelvic injury (the dealer knew all of this) Stupidly the vet who vetted the mare was the dealers vet....need I go on?
It tried to kill me several times (definitely pain and phsycological issues). Whilst investigating the old pelvic damage (she should never have been ridden) my vet also found a tumour on her ovaries and she was pts. After vet fees, physio, saddler and buying her in the first place I was left around £6,000 out of pocket.


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## FfionWinnie (11 September 2012)

The why is irrelevant he is dangerous. Get rid ASAP.


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## rhino (11 September 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			The why is irrelevant he is dangerous. Get rid ASAP.
		
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Not to the horse it's not. Unless you do believe they are completely disposable. 

Horse went from competing successfully at BYEH as a 5 year old, to going over backwards on a teenager. Surely there has got to be an underlying cause?


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## Toby_Zaphod (11 September 2012)

Quote AH "The OP can make her own mind up. My advice was to the OP - not you."

Exactly, as was my advice.

Quote AH "May be because I care about others".......... & obviously I don't?, that's why I don't want the OP to lose out massively financially in this situation which is none of her making  I don't want her to injure herself either which will surely happen. 

OP, you may have left taking action against the seller too long, but you need to take legal advice regarding this. The time frame can be explained by all the remedial actions you have taken to try & get the horse right but only a solicitor will be able to advise you regarding this.

You have tried many things to sort this horse out & you are now putting yourself in danger. The horse has gone over on you & it is not an isolated incident. Please don't ride him again, it's not worth it.

Oh...... & thank you Ditch Jumper for your comment!


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## charlie76 (11 September 2012)

Not read all the replies so dont shoot me but did he flip himself over or did you both loose balance? If its the second one,  no shame in that but its a totally different scenario when the rider causes the fall than if a horse flips itself over.


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## Dolcé (11 September 2012)

I haven't read all the replies but you say you are waiting for the saddle fitter in a few weeks.  Please don't get on the horse again until this has happened but don't rule out that it could be a saddle problem, especially if he has improved in condition since you bought him.  I hope you manage to find a solution but if not then definitely go back to the dealer and go down the legal route if necessary.


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## charlie76 (11 September 2012)

To add,  my oh bought his first horse from a pro event rider.  The horse stood up at every opportunity.  He went over twice,  not because he meant to but simply because at the time my oh didn't have the reaction quick enough to stop both him and the horse loosing balance.  We left it too long to return the horse so we decided to try and work him through it.  I spent months long reining and lunging him.  He came right in the end,  had a successful competition career and is now a hack for a sixty yr old lady.


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## Always Henesy (11 September 2012)

Toby_Zaphod said:



			Quote AH "The OP can make her own mind up. My advice was to the OP - not you."

Exactly, as was my advice.

Quote AH "May be because I care about others".......... & obviously I don't?, that's why I don't want the OP to lose out massively financially in this situation which is none of her making  I don't want her to injure herself either which will surely happen.
		
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I don't want the OP to injure herself either which is the whole point of responding to this thread
You suggested though that she get it back to the dealer so that someone else could get injured instead though - yes?


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## charlie76 (11 September 2012)

One final question,  why are you lunging him 'behind the vertical in  a pessoa '
I would think that would be the last thing a horse with neck issues would need.  Long and low maybe but btv tied in with a pessoa.  Hmmm


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## Toby_Zaphod (11 September 2012)

Always Henesy said:



			You suggested though that she get it back to the dealer so that someone else could get injured instead though - yes? 

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You are being rather silly again aren't you?...............No, I didn't say that did I? Read the posts and you will see that I've never said that. I have said that the horse should be returned to the dealer. It is then the dealer's decision as to what happens to the animal then.


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## Mariposa (11 September 2012)

I bought a pony from a polo pony dealer a few years ago.  The pony was good as gold when I tried her, passed her vetting. But when I took her home and rode her, as we were coming back into the yard she went bolt upright, without any warning, my reins were loose and I almost came off backwards.  Second time she did the same thing I rang the dealer, he claimed she'd never done it before and to let her settle. She kept doing it, i got more and more scared, and finally I hunted down her old owner...and it turned out he'd sold her to dealer for the exact same issue. 

After a lot of aggro the dealer finally took her back, but it took 6 months to get all our money back,  but we got there in the end.

All I'd say to the OP is don't let this get you down. This isn't your fault. Maybe the horse has history, you don't know, but don't let it put you off. I was gutted when my pony went back, but a few months later I found a schoolmistress, who turned out to be everything I could possibly have wanted ( that's her in my avater, the bright bay!) - there IS the right horse out there for you. Good luck with sorting this out, it will all work out in the end. Keep positive.


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## Always Henesy (11 September 2012)

Toby_Zaphod said:



			You are being rather silly again aren't you?...............No, I didn't say that did I? Read the posts and you will see that I've never said that. I have said that the horse should be returned to the dealer. It is then the dealer's decision as to what happens to the animal then.
		
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Yep - because we all know that the dealer would do the right thing and either resolve it's issues or have it pts don't we 

OP - I wish you well. Do let us know how you get on.


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## rhino (11 September 2012)

Toby_Zaphod said:



			You are being rather silly again aren't you?...............No, I didn't say that did I? Read the posts and you will see that I've never said that. I have said that the horse should be returned to the dealer. It is then the dealer's decision as to what happens to the animal then.
		
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Yet you said you _weren't_ making personal comments? There are ways to put your point across without telling someone to 'frankly ignore' someone else's views, or tell them they are being 'silly'. It's hardly helping the OP any!

OP - lots to think about here but please keep yourself safe! Yes, a bad horse can take your confidence away, but a good one can give it back


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## cptrayes (11 September 2012)

Always Henesy said:



			The dealer had lied to me about the horse and it's history ................. I was left around £6,000 out of pocket.
		
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I'm sorry about your problems but it can happen just as easily with a private sale and the law is much stronger buying from a dealer. You are giving the impression that you think no-one should buy from a dealer and I am trying to balance that.


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## Jools1234 (11 September 2012)

i would be contacting the person that evented this horse, there is a reason it was sold to a dealer and it may be that they just felt he would not go far enough for them, the classes start at 80cm so most young horses would get round with the right rider and some work put in. also check his competition record on-line just cos he took part does not mean he was good at it. take it from there most dealers give you 4 wks to return to exchange a horse thats what they have to give by law outside this your unlikely to get help.if the previous owners had a similar problem they may be best suited to offer a solution-who knows worth a call though i would think

good luck and keep safe


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## Honey08 (11 September 2012)

Always Henesy said:



			Yep - because we all know that the dealer would do the right thing and either resolve it's issues or have it pts don't we 

OP - I wish you well. Do let us know how you get on.
		
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I don't think that you can really comment on what the dealer would do because you don't know who they are or what the horse is like in reality.

A lot of BYEH horses are produced and ridden by pro riders and will not be as easy as they look.  A couple of friends have bought BYEH horses and had a few problems.  Its a lot to throw at a baby, and can result in some issues with the ones that don't make it.  With a pro onboard the horse may not have these issues.  I remember reading an autobiography from a top rider who had a horse that they would not allow any members of staff to ride under any circumstances as they didn't trust it...  I'm not making excuses for this horse at all, but there _may_ be a chance for this horse to return to an _honest_ dealer and be resold for a more experienced rider who may not experience the same problems... Not all dealers are crooks trying to fob off killer horses..


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## rhino (11 September 2012)

jools1234 said:



			i would be contacting the person that evented this horse, there is a reason it was sold to a dealer and it may be that they just felt he would not go far enough for them, the classes start at 80cm so most young horses would get round with the right rider and some work put in. also check his competition record on-line just cos he took part does not mean he was good at it. take it from there most dealers give you 4 wks to return to exchange a horse thats what they have to give by law outside this your unlikely to get help.if the previous owners had a similar problem they may be best suited to offer a solution-who knows worth a call though i would think

good luck and keep safe

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BYEH 5 year old classes (which OP has said the horse was doing) are 1.05 in the 1st round and 1.10 in the final. 

Agree with the rest


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## neddynesbitt (11 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I'm sorry about your problems but it can happen just as easily with a private sale and the law is much stronger buying from a dealer. You are giving the impression that you think no-one should buy from a dealer and I am trying to balance that.
		
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I couldn't agree more with the above. SOME people aren't as honest as they like to make out and will sell or LOAN a horse and lie through their teeth in the process!! My experience of private sales & loans is not good and I have some very good friends who have had bad experiences particularly with loaning from dishonest owners!!

Give me a dealer (obviously one with a good reputation) any day. My experience of at least one dealer (on more than one occasion) has been fantastic.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 September 2012)

I agree with all the advice to get rid but if you want to try something else - STOP THE HI-FI.  It has alfalfa in it, some horses cannot tolerate it at all.  Check as well for molasses/moglo, some horses cannot tolerate that either.


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## Amymay (11 September 2012)

Has a saddle been professionally fitted to this horse?


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## rhino (11 September 2012)

amymay said:



			Has a saddle been professionally fitted to this horse?
		
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According to previous post, yes, part of the reason the horse had to have time off was that it needed to be reflocked (think OP's gone to bed but I did have a squizz through the other threads earlier)


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## Toby_Zaphod (11 September 2012)

rhino said:



			Yet you said you _weren't_ making personal comments? There are ways to put your point across without telling someone to 'frankly ignore' someone else's views, or tell them they are being 'silly'. It's hardly helping the OP any!
		
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When someone advises someone to forget about trying to get their money back from a dealer after buying a horse that rears & is clearly dangerous I believe my advice was correct. To suggest that that buyer should also incur the additional cost of having the animal pts & also pay for the disposal of the carcase on top of the loss of the purchase price again begs belief & should  be ignored. Why should she have to stand the loss? 

Additionally when the same someone trys to say that I posted that I don't care about peoples safety when I clearly haven't posted anything like that, then I feel I have a right to call her to answer. I could have put it much stronger but I didn't.

The assumption of this person is that the dealer will not accept the horse back & will not refund........... we don't know because the dealer has not been spoken to yet. The quality of the advice that was given was, in my view, biased by her previous bad experience with a dealer.  Not all dealers are bad, many are really good & want to maintain their reputation, but if they are not informed of problems how can they do anything about it. He may not accept the horse back but surely he must be allowed the opportunity?


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## Oldenburg27 (11 September 2012)

IMO send him back where you got him from asap before he hurts you.


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## rhino (11 September 2012)

TZ; then why not state your opinion, and why you disagree with someone else's. Completely dismissing someone's post, that they have taken time to write, does not add coherency to any argument. Nobody stated that they thought you didn't care, you _chose_ to interpret that way, which correlates with your initial post which also appeared to me to be unnecessarily aggressive. 

Most of what is written on HHO is a product of people's own experiences, and it is surely more valuable to be able to read both sides, even if you do not personally agree with one.


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## CathySirett (11 September 2012)

interestingly a young horse worked in eventing, now showing responses typical of some form of pain response - not unusual in many horses who are many a bit slower to develop than their peers and so end up having neck or back issues when they hit the 5 or 6 mark after appearing quite fine when started earlier

I agree with the comment about lunging in the pessoa behind the vertical -- I would be greatly doubting ANY one who advised ANY behind the vertical work of ANY form for a horse -- particualrly one with neck issues!  

anyhow -- 

tough situation to be in -- if you have the time and money, turn him away for a year and then see how he is when you bring him back into work -- otherwise, stop riding him and find out what other options you have

Cathy


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## Mike007 (11 September 2012)

The long and the short of it is not that he rears. I have owned some wonderfull rearers. The point is that he is bad at it and falls over. Get rid asap.I would add that a horse that can rear well can also jump well.


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## devonlass (11 September 2012)

OP it's not your problem or responsibility to sort out the future of this horse.Return to dealer asap if that's an option,and kick off in big way if it isn't until it becomes an option

You bought the horse for a purpose,it is not suitable for that purpose,end of.You bought in good faith and your conscience has no need to be burdened with what happens further down the line.That is for the dealer to lose sleep over not you.

Perhaps some members on here can afford to keep a half ton pet for the next 20 years,or have one PTS and lose all their money,but for the rest of us in the harsh reality of the real world that's not generally possible,and I certainly wouldn't feel bad about it.

I care about and for my horses as much as the next person (in fact I am often known as the dreaded 'fluffy bunny' type),but I wouldn't be spending any more time or money on this horse and would be sending it back in a heartbeat.


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## rhino (12 September 2012)

Mike007 said:



			I would add that a horse that can rear well can also jump well.
		
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Not if it's a pain response...


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## Toby_Zaphod (12 September 2012)

rhino said:



			TZ; then why not state your opinion, and why you disagree with someone else's. Nobody stated that they thought you didn't care, you _chose_ to interpret that way, which correlates with your initial post which also appeared to me to be unnecessarily aggressive.
		
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I have stated my opinion & why I disagreed with someone elses.

As for 'Nobody stated you didn't care'.....read what you friend had to say....

'You suggested though that she get it back to the dealer so that someone else could get injured instead though - yes?'............. What does this say then? Can this be construed any other way?

I've had enough now.....goodnight all.


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## Mike007 (12 September 2012)

But a horse in pain doesnt rear well. It shoots up and falls over.


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## rhino (12 September 2012)

Mike007 said:



			But a horse in pain doesnt rear well. It shoots up and falls over.
		
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In your experience. Not always in mine


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## Mike007 (12 September 2012)

I think we both know when they are in pain and when they are just going "mike I can see your house from up here"


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## Kaylum (12 September 2012)

Go back to the "dealer".  Remember anyone whatsoever can buy and sell horses as a business.  They don't even need horse knowledge.  Go get your money back.  But do it now.  Don't throw money at it for something it could be. Could be a mental problem, could be something he has had happen to him in the past. Etc etc. my friend bought a horse from a "dealer" she found out his past, put some posts in the trace stolen forum with pictures and as much as you know about him.  My friend was told a pack of lies about hers and how he ended up at a dealers.  Also it will give you more evidence to go back to the dealer.


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## Slightlyconfused (12 September 2012)

Erm Mike one of ours rears really balanced and looks gracefully.......we found out his saddle was pinching him and was too long but he didn't flip over. So no you can't tell between a pain rear, naughty rear or just excitable rear(well maybe the last one you might have a niggle about) 

OP please don't lunge behind the vertical it will make matters worse. Long and low. 
Also get vet out. 
How is he girthing up? I saw you said he is an exracer so he would be more prone to ulcers and that can change behaviour just like that. 
Also if saddle needs reflocking then why are you riding in it? It on doesn't fit him and done horses are more sensitive to that than others. Ours was.


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## Amymay (12 September 2012)

rhino said:



			According to previous post, yes, part of the reason the horse had to have time off was that it needed to be reflocked (think OP's gone to bed but I did have a squizz through the other threads earlier) 

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Thanks Rhino, was on phone, so couldn't look.


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## Amymay (12 September 2012)

Whatever the reasons for the rearing OP, it's clear this horse is not for you.

Send it back.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on.


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## Always Henesy (12 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I'm sorry about your problems but it can happen just as easily with a private sale and the law is much stronger buying from a dealer. You are giving the impression that you think no-one should buy from a dealer and I am trying to balance that.
		
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Agreed.
However the law is an a** 

In this case though we are talking about buying from a dealer, not a private seller.
I have yet to find a dealer that would happily give you a refund after 2 months+ of ownership. Part exchange - yes. Part refund - yes. But not full refund no questions asked.

I appreciate that there must be some very professional and responsible dealers out there - I just haven't found any yet.


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## POLLDARK (12 September 2012)

Please, please send the horse back to the dealer. What he does with it is NOT your responsibility. I bought a rearer once & she was back with the dealer in a week. She had missed her calling & would have looked great in a blockbuster film, stunning in her rearing but dangerous. You have only one life don't take the risk of ending it or being in a wheelchair for the rest of it, it can happen. Please don't risk it. The horse may have problems causing this but it is NOT down to you to sort it out. There are lovely horses out there & one is waiting for you.


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## pottamus (12 September 2012)

I hope that you are okay and just wanted to say please do not get back on that horse...with an instructor or whether it has had its back checked, dont do it to yourself. 
I was always taught from a young age that for a horse to go up and over backwards was the most dangerous thing they could do...it shows a complete breakdown of the horses natural instincts and reasoning. It has no regard for itself, let alone you, to flip itself over like that.
Whilst it is not right that a dealer has sold you a horse that quite clearly has a behaviour in-built of rearing, I would not want to hand it back and have it passed to someone else under false pretenses. The decision that I would make is to pts as this horse has no use to anyone who wants to ride it...even if there are 'issues' that you can help, like backs, saddles etc. It has proven on more than one occasion that it is not safe or imo, sane. 
Take care.


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## Copperpot (12 September 2012)

Personally I would ring the dealer and try to contact old owner. 

Bad dealers rely on people not returning horses like this so they can continue ripping people off. It happened to me. 

You bought the horse in good faith and trusted what you were told. Why should you loose your money because you were lied to. 

Good luck.


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## Snowy1 (12 September 2012)

This is ridiculous........ the dealer has sold a dangerous horse to this person & you expect that person to stand the financial loss & not return the horse as you believe they will be responsible for what the dealer does with the returned horse & will be responsible for any injury the horse may cause in the future??? .......this is ridiculous!!!

The horse needs to go back & you need to get your money back. Take legal action if you need to. Don't ride the horse again & quite frankly ignore Always Henesy, you will be in no way responsible for what the dealer does with the horse in the future!!

AH says to have the horse pts, no, it is up to the dealer to do that after they have refunded you. You should not be out of pocket because of this.
		
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Agree with al of this. Having always bought mine from reputable dealers at home and abroad and i have exchanged/sent back when they aren't stuiable or it is time for a new one. The one time i bought off a so called "private" seller, the horse was a liability. He reared for fun. He passed a full 5 stage vetting, he cost well into 5 figures, had competed and won an awful lot show jumping and was a class horse, as was pointed out by a lot of people in the know. He also liked to go over backwards for fun. I had every test done, all tack changed, bloods run, and nothing came up. The seller knew he did this, he also knew the only way to keep the horses legs on the floor was pure brute force. That is all the horse had known,. he refused to have him back, advised me to tie its head down whilst in the stable and work him hard. I couldn't do that, fortunately for me i was able to sell him onto someone who was aware of this lovely rearing habit and who could ride him in the fashion that worked. He went on to win thousands and all i could say is good luck to them. There was no way i was going to ride that horse without him doing me some serious damage. This horse was used to being ridden by big strong men, not a small girl and he took full advantage of that situation. The lesson i learnt was never buy off a private person, and never buy one that has been started and competed by men only! 

I hope you get some joy with yours OP and if i was you i would be sending him back to the dealer and getting my money back at the very least. Rearers are dangerous and not something i would ever wish to sit on again.


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## Daytona (12 September 2012)

I'd be putting him straight back to the dealer, that's the reason I buy from dealers as you have come back.  What the dealer then does with him is not your problem, go get your money back and if he refuses create stink till he does.


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## wench (12 September 2012)

Tough one... firstly I would approach the dealer to see what they say, and get in contact with the pro that rode it at BEYH.

However, with regards to legal action, tbh, I wouldnt really bother if the pro is happy the horse never reared with them - it will cost £££'s, and be nothing but stress. (Have seen the effects of court cases on family members (not criminal ones btw!))

Is the horse insured? May be worth getting a full workup done to see if there is anything wrong with him.


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## Goldenstar (12 September 2012)

rhino said:



			In your experience. Not always in mine 

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I agree Rhino I have know several ' excellent ' rearers who turned out to have physical issues.


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## Marydoll (12 September 2012)

Define a while ago ? I think depending on your answer the dealer might just say the issue has developed with you.
If you are talking days, or a week or so, you can try to get your money back, but my experience is that they'll trade you something else for it, and usually at a much lesser price than you paid.
If you can, speak to the previous owner and ask if he did it with them, then at least you are armed with the information he did it before, and was sold on to you by the dealer possibly with this knowledge, that is assuming he did this with the previous  owner, and that it was disclosed to the dealer.
If youve had the horse for a few months, i cant see the dealer giving you your money back, as i do think youve left it a bit long to say he doesnt suit you but they may still trade the horse for something else.


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## Kaylum (12 September 2012)

I strongly advise you to trace the previous owner as dealers also are good at the part exchange thing/ taking horses in part exchange or taking them back as a part exchange when you have bought them.  You really need to know the horses past.


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## I.Camilla (12 September 2012)

Think I've read most of the replies now. 

Do we not buy horses knowing we risk them being an instant loss along with the chance that things may have been hidden, or things could easily go wrong and have nothing to do with the seller? 

4 months is a long time to then be able to send a horse back to a dealer. Not to mention that there's a good chance the horse may never have reared in previous homes and the dealer could innocently say the problem has developed with new owner, yet still be accused unknowingly? 

There's no quick fix to this, things are going to have to be thought out carefully, but for a second, lets just take on board that the dealer could be innocent here, not to mention it wont be easy to send the horse back anyway


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## YasandCrystal (12 September 2012)

I think as others have said please don't ride the horse again. The only course of action I can see may help would be to talk to previous owner/rider and turn the horse away meanwhile and plan to get to the bottom of the problem.
I had a similar situation - I was conned with a horse that passed a 5 stage vetting, but was certainly doped. Long story short - I felt for the horse in the end so did not try to return him. I used alternative methods to diagnose mine as he was so aggressive and dangerous (iridology, communication and a shiatsu therapist) - all 3 said injury/pain right upper hind. I got him referred to Newmarket and Sue Dyson diagnosed chronic Sacro Illiac dysfunction - my horse was in chronic pain and likely had been since he was 2 !!!
Good news is he was rehabed via a holistic vet - turned away for nearly a year and is now sound and coming back into work slowly and successfully.

There can be light at the end of the tunnel - it depends on your drive and determination, but please don't risk your health


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## lamlyn2012 (12 September 2012)

The first thing I would say is that this horse is not the horse for you. If you completley lose your confidence it may take a long time to come back. 
The biggest problem is what to do with it.
In theory you have more protection if you buy from a dealer, as you are protected by the Sale of Goods Act, but in practise it's not that clear cut. For example, can you PROVE that the horse reared prior to purchase; are you able to PROVE the info you were given by the dealer prior to purchase. You need a good equine solicitor and you may be able to get this free if you are a BHS gold member or you may be covered on your horse insurance policy or even your household insurance.
As for returning the horse to the dealer, do you know he will have it back?
If you do have a case in court it will take months and you may not get the result you had hoped for in the end so it may be better to cut your losses now.
Please do not pass the horse on to anyone else without being entirely honest.  I think if I were you I would try a really proffessional yard for some schooling and if it does not improve have it PTS, sooner rather than later. Whatever happens you are likely to lose money, but most of us have been there at some time or other.


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## siennamum (12 September 2012)

I am probably reiterating what others have said.

Horse may not have reared in it's life before it arrived with OP. It would be worth trying to find out from previous rider.

It had saddle issues, teeth issues, was ridden by 2 different riders, has had manipulation by a practitioner without (it seems) vet consent? vet hasn't been called as far as I can tell.

As far as we all know the dealer may have sold a lovely young horse in good faith.

On the other hand horse could be a confirmed flipper (which would need shooting IMO) or a nappy so and so which responded well with a professional, and is now royally taking the mickey with less experienced riders.

We don't know, so can't see how anyone can be insisting on any course of action tbh.

I would want to know why it is rearing & if it has reared before. If your RI was too scared to ride horse after a week and lunged it only, then why was a younger less experienced person allowed to then ride it? also really - get a vet!!


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## Wagtail (12 September 2012)

Polos said:



			He has only just had his back seen by an osteopath (last wednesday) haven't thought of lameness (doesn't look unsound when trotted up) or ulcers. 


I suppose its worth a try to see what she says.
		
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We had a horse here for three years that used to rear and fall over backwards. My hubby banned me from riding her. Had the vet several times and nothing was found. Not lame or anything. Then she started to lose her back end occasionally when being lunged or ridden on a circle. Vet came out again and found bilateral hindleg lameness on flexion. Eventually she was diagnosed with upper suspensory desmitis and was operated on. She has never reared since.

However, I would echo what others have said. No way would I pass such a horse on. I would do full medical investigations (probably have a bone scan done) and if nothing wrong was found, would either retire as a field ornament or PTS. From listening to what you say, your horse is extremely dangerous and I would not get back on board.


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## Patterdale (12 September 2012)

Get rid. 

Sometimes a youngster might rear, lose balance, scare itself and never do it again. 
But if they keep doing it, and it's just the sudden flip over, it's so dangerous. 

A horse who isn't worried about his own self preservation certainly isn't worried about you. 

If it was mine, I certainly wouldn't be wasting money on lameness work ups etc. Itd just be down the road so fast it's head would spin. 

IMHO there's no need for you to be a martyr here. 

Usually with a behavioural problem, in your situation I would give it to a professional as a seller.....bit thinking on it tbh I couldn't, with s clear conscience, let someone get on a horse that I knew flipped itself over. 

I don't know where you go from here.......only you know the horse and have experienced what it does etc. 

How big/what build is he? Blood bank maybe? 
What has the dealer said?

Unfortunately there are very few homes for dangerous unrideable horses......which makes the pts option, while sad, not out of the question


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## Wagtail (12 September 2012)

Always Henesy said:



			I will thank you to keep the tone of your post slightly less aggressive...the OP is well within her rights to ignore me. The OP has asked for advice regarding her rearing horse. I have given my advice and she is perfectly entitled to ignore it.

The dealer is unlikely to give her the money back - have you any experience of dealers at all? Legal action is a possibility, but costly and to what end?
Do you seriously think the dealer would do the right thing by the horse if they did give her the money back? 

If I was the OP I would not have the potential death or serious injury of another human being on my conscience if the horse were to go back to the dealer. But maybe that is because I care about others.
		
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I completely agree with this! If everyone thought this way then there would be far fewer dangerous horses being sold to unsuspecting people. It may be the dealer's fault, but even if I was out of pocket I would never risk sending a dangerous horse back, knowing there would be a very good chance of it being sold on again and possibly killing someone.


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## MyBoyChe (12 September 2012)

Im with the "dont get on it again brigade".  I had same situation 4 years ago, bought a happy hacker from a dealer, within 2 weeks she had started to go vertical every time she didnt want to do something, coupled with that she was a very bad tempered, nasty piece of work, not the "kind, easy family horse" according to her advert!  I kept in contact with the dealer via email from the start of her antics, so had everything on record so to speak.  After 6 weeks I asked her to take the mare back for a refund, not an exchange.  She eventually agreed to take her back  and refund me 75% of the original sales price.  Having heard some real horror stories I accepted this offer.  Tbh, I have no idea what happened to the mare afterwards.  I bought from a dealer believing I would have more comeback if anything went wrong, I was partly right, and I always felt that the blame/guilt, whatever for the sale of the horse lay with the dealer, not me.  I am not the professional sales person here, I believed what I was told about the horse and dont think I should be the one out of pocket because the horse was "not as described".  After all if you go to a garage to buy a sports car and they deliver you a tractor, you would expect a refund surely!!  I would say though that quite a long time has lapsed so you may struggle to insist on a refund, maybe trying to work with the dealer to effect a good outcome is a better option, "horse is not for me, this is why, can you part ex for something more suitable" kind of thing.  Be honest with them about the horse and then it is up to their conscience what they do with him afterwards.


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## Twinkley Lights (12 September 2012)

I do feel for you Polos as I'm in almost the exact same situation - only difference is that my new horse hasn't gone right over (thank god) but he is very good at rearing.  My dealer is pretending to be a private seller and young and naieve at this point so it's court action for me, I'm currently trying to trace previous owner and he is being ridden by an eventer next week to determine next steps.  I'm not going to sell him on without full disclosure as that's what the little bitch that sold him to me did to me.  Made my blood run cold when a family I know who tried him and liked him too (they were happily too slow to offer) said that the dealer had let them put their 10 year old daughter on him.  If I saw my dealer at a show or in the street I would just drop her no words just one powerful punch should do and I'm not normally given to violence but for her I will make an exception and enjoy it too.


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## Black_Horse_White (12 September 2012)

I returned a horse back to a reputable dealer after 2 months of owning him. He wasn't dangerous just not the horse for me. Needless to say I took a big loss as he wouldn't give me all my money back. If you do return the horse you would have given your reasons why. If the dealer then sells the horse on without disclosing the horse has reared in the past, then he is the one responsible for injuries sustained by the horse. Your conscience should be clear, just send him back and stay safe.


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## Orangehorse (12 September 2012)

Some horses will be nappy, slow down, stop, threaten to rear, and then go up, but just to flip right over with no warning is bad.  Do not ride again.  (Saw this on TV once with a racehorse).
It may be possible to find an answer, but you bought it from a professional for a job, and presumably paid the right sort of money for it and it was sold to you with no problems.  Actually rearing is a vice, I only hope you are able to return it and get some money back.

What happens then is up to the dealer.  I know dealers who do try to get to the bottom of problems - will turn a horse out for 12 months and then bring it slowly back into work.

What a shame for you, hope you can resolve this OK.


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## unicorndreams (12 September 2012)

Strikes me that this could be quite a good money spinner for unscrupulous dealers - sell horse with prob, agree to take it back but only offer a partial refund (money for nothing!), resell horse for original money, with another potential cycle or return, partial refund etc! I'd like to thinkt hat word would get round pretty quick and that it would be a rare dealer that would be so unscrupulous!
I bought a mare from a dealer many years ago who started to rear for no obvious reason - dealer took her back to see if prob occured for them too which of course they said it didn't. I ended up having to have the mare back. She only reared occasionally in summer so vet thought it was related to her being in season but Regumate didn't help. Never did get to the bottom of the problem and eventually sold her for far less than I paid for her to an experienced owner who was prepared to work on her issue


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (12 September 2012)

Toby_Zaphod said:



			This is ridiculous........ the dealer has sold a dangerous horse to this person & you expect that person to stand the financial loss & not return the horse as you believe they will be responsible for what the dealer does with the returned horse & will be responsible for any injury the horse may cause in the future??? .......this is ridiculous!!!

The horse needs to go back & you need to get your money back. Take legal action if you need to. Don't ride the horse again & quite frankly ignore Always Henesy, you will be in no way responsible for what the dealer does with the horse in the future!!

AH says to have the horse pts, no, it is up to the dealer to do that after they have refunded you. You should not be out of pocket because of this.
		
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Agree with this! OP bought the horse in good conscience and basically dealer has sold her a horse which is dangerous, possibly knowingly so.

Yes very tempting to have horse PTS; BUT no-one is made of money and OP has a horse which she cannot sell on or loan, or do anything which, and whether she rides it or not will cost her a fortune as she'll have to keep it.

If dealer(s) get difficult then go to Trading Standards and/or solicitor. If you feed in "Quarrystone stud" on the archives on HHO here, if my memory serves me correct there's something in there about a horse they sold which then threw someone - and the buyer successfully took them to the cleaners......... so worth a look mebbe OP? So sorry for you in all this, you sound like you just need a nice horse you can do stuff with and have got all this worry and hassle. I feel for you.


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## cptrayes (12 September 2012)

Always Henesy said:



			I have yet to find a dealer that would happily give you a refund after 2 months+ of ownership.
		
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Why on earth should they?

Two months is plenty of time for a rider who is unsuited to a horse to completely ruin its behaviour. I am not suggesting that the original poster did that, but if the horse was actually fine when the dealer sold it, how on earth is he to make a business if he has to keep taking horses back and reschooling them to sell them again.

Remember that this horse has been going fine after initial teething troubles and that as far as he knew the horse was doing really well with the new owner.


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## pip6 (12 September 2012)

Very tough for you. My reation would be to inform dealer of issue & state you want full refund asap as the longer you leave it the more you will loose on the horse & find it harder to get refund from dealer. If they start to be funny then get advice from trading standards.

Please don't get on horse in mean time, your life is too valuable. Be careful about trying too much to fix problem (& don't see how lunging behind vertical can do anything but harm), in case you get accused of causing it. Keep records of all treatment, & try to claim that from dealer as well. If he sees you want more than original value (costs incurred through taking every reasonable avenue to make sure horse was healthy & fit for purpose), then you may get your purchase price back. Most of all, go get some professional advice (CAB if you have no access to legal advice line) as you can be sure dealer knows the letter of the law (after all it's their job & they wil have had people try to return before no matter how good dealer), so you need to know if they aren't being entirely truthful about your position.


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## cptrayes (12 September 2012)

Orangehorse said:



			Actually rearing is a vice
		
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Not in any legal sense. Legally declarable vices are limited to windsucking, box walking and weaving, crib biting only if associated with windsucking (biting wood is not a vice). There is no obligation on a seller to say anything about a horse which rears unless they are asked whether it does.


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## cptrayes (12 September 2012)

Can people please remember that at the moment there is no evidence whatsoever that this horse had ever reared before this person bought it? This may be a perfectly decent dealer you are all ritually slaughtering here.

OP I think you need to contact the previous owner if you are to insist that the dealer takes this horse back with any success.


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## Black_Horse_White (12 September 2012)

Most of the time dealers don't keep the horse long enough to find out what the horse does. My returned horse was re-sold to another dealer who advertised him as the perfect horse. He wasn't he didn't hack out very well for a start. Dealers don't own the horses long enough to truly know what the horse is like.


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## pencompo (12 September 2012)

Lots of people are advising to "get rid"....but unless the dealer will take the horse back I don't understand how. This horse obviously can't be passed on to anyone, and if the dealer has sold it once, then they will probably try again, putting someone else in danger. Is there part of a trade description act that covers this sort of thing?


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## YasandCrystal (12 September 2012)

Orangehorse said:



			Some horses will be nappy, slow down, stop, threaten to rear, and then go up, but just to flip right over with no warning is bad.  Do not ride again.  (Saw this on TV once with a racehorse).
		
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You refer the racehorse Townsender? Scary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ypmmsr--3c

Townsender was pts following a brain scan after the flipping incident.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=29039


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## foxy1 (12 September 2012)

It's quite possible that this is just a sensitive competition horse with neck pain. As for rearing with no warning, there is always a warning but some horses give more obvious signals than others.

This clearly isn't the horse for you OP, I would give the dealer a call and see if they will buy him back.


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## pip6 (12 September 2012)

Not intending to tar all with same brush, I appreciate there as many good honest dealers as bad ones. That's where reputation comes into play.

Can say there was one at yard I was at. Firstly he'd lost his yard, came to ours as livery & when clients arrived passed yard off as his & even made out real owner was his groom. Second, he didn't even know the name of the horses he was selling, just made one up if asked. He did ride everything, have to say he had excellent seat (saw him chatting on phone whilst horse reared vertically). Third, the clients I spoke to often ended up buying horse as they felt so sorry for it. Dealer didn't give two hoots as long as he got some cash. Do know one client tried to get refund, he used the 'you must have caused the problem he was fine here' line with her, in reality horse was known to be psycho on yard. Horses were cold cash to him, no more, didn't care what he said. When he had his own yard he used to ship a load in from his depot on the saturday, chuck his liveries out in the fields, put sale horses in their stables for clients to come round & view. Sunday afternoon sale horses were shipped back to his holding yard. Everything was smoke & mirrors. Thankfully he no longer trades horses, but now he sells cars.


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## Always Henesy (12 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Why on earth should they?

Two months is plenty of time for a rider who is unsuited to a horse to completely ruin its behaviour. I am not suggesting that the original poster did that, but if the horse was actually fine when the dealer sold it, how on earth is he to make a business if he has to keep taking horses back and reschooling them to sell them again.

Remember that this horse has been going fine after initial teething troubles and that as far as he knew the horse was doing really well with the new owner.
		
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Exactly! 2 months + is a long time to leave it if you are hoping that the dealer will take it back. That has been my point - regardless of whether the dealer knowingly sold this horse with issues or not.

My other point all a long has been that whatever the circumstances - you can't just pass on a horse that is potentially very dangerous to someone else.
Unless that person is fully aware of what they are taking on. 
Does the OP want to finance sending this horse to someone professional to work on? Does the OP want to try and sell the horse whilst being totally honest about it's rearing habit? How many people would willingly buy a horse that has reared over backwards with it's rider with no warning?
However you look at this - the OP is going to suffer the financial loss with whatever option she chooses. My honest opinion in all of this is that the horse should be pts and the OP should learn from the experience and move on.
There are many many lovely horses without this nasty and dangerous habit. 

This happened to me! I was crippled financially and left without a horse, but I had to brush myself off, save money all over again and get another horse.


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## Always Henesy (12 September 2012)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Agree with this! OP bought the horse in good conscience and basically dealer has sold her a horse which is dangerous, possibly knowingly so.

Yes very tempting to have horse PTS; BUT no-one is made of money and OP has a horse which she cannot sell on or loan, or do anything which, and whether she rides it or not will cost her a fortune as she'll have to keep it.

If dealer(s) get difficult then go to Trading Standards and/or solicitor. If you feed in "Quarrystone stud" on the archives on HHO here, if my memory serves me correct there's something in there about a horse they sold which then threw someone - and the buyer successfully took them to the cleaners......... so worth a look mebbe OP? So sorry for you in all this, you sound like you just need a nice horse you can do stuff with and have got all this worry and hassle. I feel for you.
		
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Please read all of my posts carefull before you agree with slating my opinion.
This horse has been with the OP over 2 months! I have merely been pointing out the possible and highly likely issues the OP will have in trying to return it to the dealer.
This dreadful senario has happened to many of us and the same ole adage "buyers beware" has come back to bite many of us on the proverbial.

All of us agree that the OP is in a horrid and sad situation - but the only outcome here will involve financial loss and heartbreak.


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## fatpiggy (12 September 2012)

I wouldn't be allowing anyone to ride the horse either right now. Make enquiries about returning it to the dealer (but I wouldn't hold out much hope I'm afraid) but absolutely speak either to the event rider or someone local to them who might have known the animal from events, showjumping.  Bear in mind that if it was halfway decent with nothing wrong then the event rider would likely have sold it on himself privately.  Passing/selling to a dealer smacks of out of sight, out of mind unfortunately, and many people, amateur and professional are not interested in the animal, just the money to be made out of it.


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## foxy1 (12 September 2012)

Always Henesy said:



			Does the OP want to try and sell the horse whilst being totally honest about it's rearing habit? How many people would willingly buy a horse that has reared over backwards with it's rider with no warning?
		
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I would, if it were cheap enough. But as the dealer knows the horse they would probably be more likely to take it back. Or the person who produced it for BYEH.


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## temple_jessica (12 September 2012)

i cant imagine a dealer taking it back after 2 months as this is more than enough time for a horse to be "ruined" not saying this is the case but i have experienced someone doing this ! get bloods run to rule out doping etc if bloods clear i say its something thats changed. have u had back checked? saddle fitted professionally? any other changes in the way hes kept?


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## foxy1 (12 September 2012)

I agree, they won't give a refund but they may buy it back as they know the horse.


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## Jools1234 (12 September 2012)

hope the OP is ok, this thread seems to have been turned into a bit of a slanging match in places, i feel the the OP was only young and could have done with a bit more sympathetically put advise in places.

OP its ok you cant save them all and neither can you be responsible for them, i understand over 2 months is a long in which you get attached but the horse does sound dangerous and your safety is more important than whether you get back on this horse.

be careful and keep safe


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## Black_Horse_White (12 September 2012)

The dealer took mine back after 2 months so maybe yours will too. But expect to get less than you paid. Some say horses are unsettled when they first move and should be given time to settle, mine was the opposite he became more unpredictable the longer I had him.


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## cptrayes (12 September 2012)

Always Henesy said:



			My honest opinion in all of this is that the horse should be pts
		
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You would put a horse to sleep because it has history of rearing with one relatively inexperienced owner?

If we did that to every horse that has reared badly, then a good proportion of perfectly decent horses now being ridden by people of all levels of experience would also have been killed.


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## Always Henesy (12 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You would put a horse to sleep because it has history of rearing with one relatively inexperienced owner?

If we did that to every horse that has reared badly, then a good proportion of perfectly decent horses now being ridden by people of all levels of experience would also have been killed.
		
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If a horse reared over backwards onto me (provided that I lived to tell the tale) and all potential medical issues had been ruled out then yes I would pts without question. I have 3 children to provide for and I owe it to them to stay alive.


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## Tycoongirl (12 September 2012)

Hi, Have not read all previous posts, so sorry if i am repeating whats already been said.  It sounds to me that you have been very sensible and already come to the conclusion that this horse is not for you.  If the horse has been produced by a professional, and obviously is capable of doing well as a competition horse, I would personally send him away to a proffesional competition yard to be re-schooled and sold.  Make sure you are completely honest with them about the rearing, so they are fully prepared for what the horse may throw at them.  Proffesionals have all the facilities, manpower, time and ability to deal with this type of problem in a horse, and he will probably go on to be a very succesful competition horse (querky ones usually do lol!) Please don't feel that you have failed in any way with this horse.  Your safety is far more important, and I am sure you will find a suitable horse to have fun without worrying you are going to end up underneath it!  Good luck x


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## Tim's Girl (13 September 2012)

Hi if the horse worries you then you need to get rid. If however you want to keep him then i would put the effort in. My friends tb was a rearer. She turned him away for a year to let him be a horse (ex racer and the teenager than owned him before wanted to jump everyday and he finally had enough and reared her off all the time). When she was ready they started parelli natural horsemanship and he hasnt put a foot wrong in the last 2 years. They have a better understanding of each other now and he is such a lovely horse. Parelli us not for everyone and some people think it is a load of rubbish but thats up to them. Ive seen this horse turn many corners and at one point she was going to sell him as he worried her. The horse is 17 now btw so old enough to know better. 

I hope you make the right decision for you both. Lets us know what happens


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## SpruceRI (13 September 2012)

I think you have 2 or 3 choices here.

Firstly contact the dealer and inform them of the issues, see if they will take horse back.

In the meantime, contact a Solicitor and/or Trading Standards and see where you stand as to your legal rights for return of the horse to the dealer. 

If you decide that you don't want to return the horse to the dealer, I'd take the horse to the vet for a work-up. 

I would not have a therapist of any sort attempting to treat my the horse when they don't really know what is wrong with it.

I had 2 types of 'therapist' come out to treat a pony with gait/lateral bend problems.  Neither could feel/find anything wrong and gave my pony a massage/treatment..... nothing helped, a Bone Scan identified KS and SI injury.  You need to get to the bottom of this if you're going to consider riding the horse again.


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## hairycob (13 September 2012)

The bit that popped up for me is that an osteo has been working on him but there is no mention of a Vet having seen him. Someone on our yard had a rearer - she had been gradually getting worse over a very long period until she got really, really bad. Firstly she was diagnosed with ulcers, then when she continued getting worse was sent to Rossdales & was diagnosed with a leg/back issues. Now she has been treated her behaviour is much better -though she is still far from a novice ride. She had been having a back person out every 3 months for as long she had had the horse.


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## Goldenstar (13 September 2012)

Polos just wanted to say this sort of thing has happened to lots of us it happened to be with a horse my parents bought for me when I was fifteen , he never became reliable he too was young five or six now a days I am sure he would have turned out to have kissing spines but that's over thirty years ago one and vet care has advanced a lot.
I wish you luck whatever you decide to do .


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## Amymay (13 September 2012)

Polos, what bit are you riding in?


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## cptrayes (13 September 2012)

Always Henesy said:



			If a horse reared over backwards onto me (provided that I lived to tell the tale) and all potential medical issues had been ruled out then yes I would pts without question. I have 3 children to provide for and I owe it to them to stay alive.
		
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That's the whole point AH 

NO potential issues have yet been ruled out with this horse. He hasn't even been seen by a vet or been sent to a professional used to dealing with sharp horses for assessment.


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## Goldenstar (13 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			That's the whole point AH 

NO potential issues have yet been ruled out with this horse. He hasn't even been seen by a vet or been sent to a professional used to dealing with sharp horses for assessment.
		
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Exactly , I am sure that Polos should not get back on this horse but until he's had a proper veterinary assessment and been assesed by a pro after that if thats apporiate it's way premature to talk about PTS for a horse non of us have ever seen or seen Polos on.
Polos needs to stay safe and decide with her family how they go forward with the horse.
It will cost a fait bit to do all this returning the horse to the dealer to sell making sure that all potential buyers speak to Polos before buying may be the best way forward.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (13 September 2012)

Polos said:



			A while ago I posted about my new horse rearing me off, well things got better for a while he was working really nicely in the school until he started to go funny again (bouncing and headshaking) I called the dentist and he sorted his teeth out and the osteopath who found some tightness in his neck but he 'manipulated' his neck and gave us an exercise programme which we have been sticking to, saddler is booked for a couple of weeks time. Tonight I decided to go for a hack (he has been hacking twice with me  at the yard before- one in company and one by himself) and my mum walked with me on foot. We got halfway round our route before he started acting up (bouncing, headshaking and spooking) I put my leg and managed to ride him through it so we carried on (we where on our way back at this point) and we where almost home, I could see the yard and he just went straight up and over, it was so quick I had no time to react or grab the neckstrap, he just went straight over and landed on me. He wacked his head pretty hard on a gate on the way down and scraped a fair bit of fur off his face. 

I just don't know what to do about this, he just goes straight up without any warning, I have owned him for about 2 months now and he has reared so many times I have lost count.

He goes out for 8 hours a day, he is only fed a handfull of hi-fi twice a day and haylage and he does some sort of exercise everyday.  

My mum says he has to go and tbh I agree with her, we are going to ring up the dealers in the next few days but we don't know wether to get the bloods tested first, any advice?
		
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My mare is quite the one for going up and over. Shes done it countless times in the 5 years ive owned her, under saddle and randomly when standing on the yard. Checked by a vet and physio and its just her way! She does it well and keeps her head safe and has never been injured!


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (13 September 2012)

badgermyers said:



			My mare is quite the one for going up and over. Shes done it countless times in the 5 years ive owned her, under saddle and randomly when standing on the yard. Checked by a vet and physio and its just her way! She does it well and keeps her head safe and has never been injured!
		
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a horse that throws itself over randomly? I'm assuming the yard is hard surfaced..concrete?? and she throws herself onto it? I'd be mighty concerned...but thats just me..


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## Amymay (13 September 2012)

As OP seems to have vanished, what's the point in continued comment?


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## Nightmare before Christmas (13 September 2012)

TuscanBunnyGirl said:



			a horse that throws itself over randomly? I'm assuming the yard is hard surfaced..concrete?? and she throws herself onto it? I'd be mighty concerned...but thats just me..
		
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yeah she does, sometimes its when she wont move forward other times its totally random! i dont tie her up often due to it, I taught her to stand on the yard untied. 

I dont recommend having a horse like this unless you can deal with it. I have competed this horse to 1.10 with no issues. (bar her confidence jumping and being a tricky ride). I deal with her behaviour and do things to try and avoid the flipping.


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## YasandCrystal (13 September 2012)

hairycob said:



			The bit that popped up for me is that an osteo has been working on him but there is no mention of a Vet having seen him. Someone on our yard had a rearer - she had been gradually getting worse over a very long period until she got really, really bad. Firstly she was diagnosed with ulcers, then when she continued getting worse was sent to Rossdales & was diagnosed with a leg/back issues. Now she has been treated her behaviour is much better -though she is still far from a novice ride. She had been having a back person out every 3 months for as long she had had the horse.
		
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This is exactly why I really rate holistic vets, who get to the root cause of any issue. My boy had ulcers - these were just a symptom of his SI dysfunction and pain. I cannot understand why a horse would need back treatment on such a regular basis if there was not an underlying issue.


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## YasandCrystal (13 September 2012)

amymay said:



			As OP seems to have vanished, what's the point in continued comment?
		
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who needs the OP to have an informed discussion?


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## Amymay (13 September 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			who needs the OP to have an informed discussion? 

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True.


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## Goldenstar (13 September 2012)

And OP may well be back and it may help her make her desision she may be busy with that thing called real life that people have away from HHO , that's a shocking thought.


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## Always Henesy (13 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			That's the whole point AH 

NO potential issues have yet been ruled out with this horse. He hasn't even been seen by a vet or been sent to a professional used to dealing with sharp horses for assessment.
		
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Yes and I don't disagree with that point, but I got the impression that throwing a lot of money at a horse the OP feels isn't suitable wasn't a favourable option. Apologies if I am wrong.
I am concerned that a talented horse starting out eventing suddenly ended up in a dealers yard anyway. Makes you wonder if the original event rider knew there was a significant problem and it was the easiest option to get rid. 
I am not on here to fall out with anyone, but these are my views.


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## Santa_Claus (13 September 2012)

I'm amazed and shocked at how cut and dry everyone is in voicing their opinions without knowing the horse and rider involved.

If I had told you lot about my horse's antics as a youngster (chronic rearer with no physical issues who went over twice once ridden once not due to losing her balance!) she would have been PTS. instead now she is a successful competition horse!

There are so many facts that we don't know. Did the horse flip or lose its balance. If it flipped then its a PTS job in my mind, if it lost its balance then it's worth perservering. Problem is OP is admittedly not very experienced and what felt to her to be a flipper could well not have been as it could have been her loss of balance that pulled the horse over. I'm not saying she did just she could have.

Next the reason for it rearing in the first place it could easily have kissing spines (common in ex racers particulary) it could have a serious neck issue it could have a mental issue or multiple other things including it could be using rearing as an avasion.

From what I've read the horse has never seen the vet not even now after going over despite the horse 'hitting its head hard'. The horse needs a work up for starters the poor thing probably has a good case of concussion going on!!

The OP also from the sounds has not spoken to the dealer at all. It is very likely it has never shown a rear prior to the OP's ownership so the dealer's actions will depend on the dealer. They may be exceptional and take it straight back (highly unlikely). They may want to have proof it was a pre-existing condition which is very hard to prove unless speaking to the rider who evented it as a 5yo will give a statement to say it reared with them (this is again making a massive presumption that it has previously reared). They may refuse to take it back full stop as it has been 2+ months since purchase. Simply we don't know as they haven't been asked. If they say no then yes legal action is a possible route BUT good luck you would need to show the dealer was dishonest and it was a pre-existing condition/behavioural issue and the only way you will do that is by getting statements from previous riders to say it reared AND that the dealer would have been aware of it doing so.


My personal course of action would be that the OP doesn't ride it as she clearly isn't confident enough to deal with a rearer and will most likely result in the rearing increasing, I would personally get the vet out first and foremost to check for physical issues including concussion. If that is all clear I would long rein it to see if it displays the same behaviour when worked without a rider (btw mine did  ) if it flips when long reined its a bullet one way or another as if it flips with no rider to unbalance it, it has no regard for its own or anyone elses safety and is effectively dangerous. If it doesn't flip there is hope and presuming the saddle fits I would bring in someone confident riding rearers to assess it. I wouldn't use her instructor as from the OP's post they are not confident with rearers! Once it is assessed would go from there. I would also stop using the pessoa especially forcing the horse to be BTV, I would be questionning any professional that advised this as it results ni overbending the neck and verterbrea for extended periods which can cause muscle and ligament damage plus restricts the horse working correctly over its back. I would be concentrating on it working long and low over its back and neck. There are many different reasons for a horse rearing and the cause needs to be identified and elminated.

Ultimately though presuming no physical issue without a significant period of work from a confident rider the horse is not going to be suitable for the OP as a horse once a rearer is always a rearer in my experience. Mine for example may be reformed and now be my superstar but if she is put in certain situations she will still go up and this will never change but the key with her is she is never doing it to get me off and I know how to stop her normally before she has chance to even think about going up. So ultimately I would say the horse has to go just the question is where and that will very much depend on 1) a vets opinion and 2) if applicable a suitable rider's opinion and 3) the dealers opinion. The dealer needs to be given fair chance as well, I love how they has been written off as a scoundrel when they are probably not even aware there is a problem with the horse in the first place!!

OP good luck with the horse and I hope you can get to the root of the problem and ultimately the horse ends in a happy home with its' issues solved and you end up with a horse you can ride and enjoy which may or may not be this horse, and that also you do not end up out of pocket.

I know to take any posts on here with a very large pinch of salt but many do not, and it wouldn't surprise me if everyday people took advice on here as gospel when in reality it was completely wrong. I'm not saying my proposed course of action is the correct one but given the lack of facts I would like to think it was the most sensible! Rant over but please people stop being so judgemental without knowing all the facts! 

P.s. rant doesn't apply to all posters as there has been some sense talked it is just heavily interspersed by overly judgemental comments!


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## TarrSteps (13 September 2012)

^^ What she said.


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## Flame_ (13 September 2012)

Santa_Claus said:



			The dealer needs to be given fair chance as well, I love how they has been written off as a scoundrel when they are probably not even aware there is a problem with the horse in the first place!!
		
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That's being very generous! I agree there's a good few things the OP would be well advised to consider trying before pts what might be to her, or at least to someone else, a useful horse, but as you say "once a rearer, always a rearer". It would be highly unlikely, IMO, that this was this horse's first go at rearing. I reckon at least 80% of horses who've "never done that before" have damn well done it before many times, just some issues are manageable by some jockeys. Those horses, including your horse, have a problem that ethically ought to be disclosed.

Good luck OP.


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## TarrSteps (13 September 2012)

There's always a first time for everything. It's always possible the horse never had cause to react in that particular way until the first day it did it with the OP.

As an example, I've seen more than one 4 year old stand up out of the blue from teething issues. Often the horse does it once, an experienced owner gets the teeth sorted/gives the horse some time/changes to a hackamore and there is no further issue. But someone else might not handle the situation as well and now the horse has a new trick. So yesterday the horse was fine, today it rears.  SOME horses show a tendency from birth but not all. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen a 'habit' start in a moment, not even necessarily a dramatic one.


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## Santa_Claus (13 September 2012)

I don't think I'm being generous. A horse that has always been ridden by pros or equally experienced riders may never consider showing such behaviours but put in the hands of an inexperience rider will do. Ive seen it happen countless times nice horse nicely produced and not known to misbehave ever (genuinely) turns into problem horse which is allowed to get away with murder and does. 

You can't pass judgement without the facts what has happened to innocent till proven guilty?!  Yes I may have reared before but it also may not have the fact is we don't know an the dealer hasn't been asked and it's not legally disclosable a time of sale although if asked it would need to be confirmed/denied honestly. 

I wouldn't sell my mare but if I did I would let any potential purchasers aware of her history because morally its the right thing to do. I would also be very very picky of where she went as she is the sort of horse that could be ruined in a day undoing years of hard work!


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## Santa_Claus (13 September 2012)

Please excuse missing letters due to phone autocorrect!


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## kirstykate (13 September 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			There's always a first time for everything. It's always possible the horse never had cause to react in that particular way until the first day it did it with the OP.

As an example, I've seen more than one 4 year old stand up out of the blue from teething issues. Often the horse does it once, an experienced owner gets the teeth sorted/gives the horse some time/changes to a hackamore and there is no further issue. But someone else might not handle the situation as well and now the horse has a new trick. So yesterday the horse was fine, today it rears.  SOME horses show a tendency from birth but not all. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen a 'habit' start in a moment, not even necessarily a dramatic one.
		
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Exactly, and absolutely nothing against the OP, But how many horses which have been professional produced have been sold to the wrong people have ended up this way, though naivety and lack of experience.


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## Polos (13 September 2012)

I have given up reading and replying to the posts as they are just getting more and more negative. to be honest I wish I never asked for advice in the first place! 

I would like to say a couple of things though 

Firsty, I am in no way 'inexperienced' I produced my old pony from jumping off the lead rein classes to jumping newcomers, I have competed in BS up to senior newcomers and at county shows, I completely changed my old horses way of going (he used to charge flat out at jumps but after months of going back to basics and working things back up I had a horse that would jump in a snaffle with no martingale instead of having a pelham and martingale. I have competed in unaff dressage to Novice, I also taught him flying changes, leg yield and shoulder in. I have also worked on a busy livery yard on the weekends and done work exp on a sj yard so I am in no way 'unexperienced'

Secondly the event rider is in no way to blame, we contacted her and had a reply saying that she competed him for an owner and one day she went to get him from the field and he was hopping lame. The vet came out and found he'd done a hind suspensory. The owner was unwilling to pay for treatment and he was passed around a bit before ending up in the dealers. The dealers must have been aware that he'd done a suspensory but they failed to tell us. We have the vet coming out first thing tomorrow to check him over and give us an opinion on his hind suspensory. 

We are going to wait until we hear from the vet before making any decisions. If anyone has any HELPFUL information (not rude, patronising or telling me that i'm a crap owner and rider) on suspensory injuries and recovery please feel free to inbox me, but for now I am done commenting on this post.


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## Goldenstar (13 September 2012)

Polos I am sorry you feel like that any advice I gave I meant to be helpful I am sorry if you have not found it so.
I think you have found your answer ,my only experiance of hind suspensory issues was a friends horse and that one did rear and not want to hack out it was a long  time ago and treatments have moved on .


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## cptrayes (13 September 2012)

Polos said:



			Firsty, I am in no way 'inexperienced'
		
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Polos you are still going around hacking with your Mum walking with you. That makes you way more inexperienced than those of us who have been in horses too long for our Mums to be able to walk that far and fast, if they are still alive.  You are "relatively" inexperienced with horses which are way different than ponies, but I am sorry if being described that way by me upset you. It was not intended as a criticism of your youth any more than it was of my advanced age 




			Secondly the event rider is in no way to blame, we contacted her and had a reply saying that she competed him for an owner and one day she went to get him from the field and he was hopping lame. The vet came out and found he'd done a hind suspensory. The owner was unwilling to pay for treatment and he was passed around a bit before ending up in the dealers. The dealers must have been aware that he'd done a suspensory but they failed to tell us. We have the vet coming out first thing tomorrow to check him over and give us an opinion on his hind suspensory.
		
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My advice is: 


Give up now before you throw good money after bad. Hind suspensories are bad news. Many of them have to be denerved to work again and that can regrow, as well as costing a lot of money for which you are now not insured, (if you were originally)  having declared online that the horse had a pre-existing problem. 

If you need the  money, then you have no option that I can see but to send him back to the dealer if you can prove he knew about the suspensories. I have known of several rearing horses that turned out to have hock and/or hind suspensory problems.  My friend has one in her field right now beginning a year's rest to see if it can come right. It flipped out of the blue on a hack like yours and dropped her on the floor, thankfully unhurt.

If you don't need the money then I would give him a year off, have him reassessed and have him put down then if this was still an issue. 

This new information is a complete answer to your horse's issues. I am so sorry for you that you have been done to by the chain of owners who passed this poor horse on until you ended up with him.


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## TarrSteps (13 September 2012)

As above, I'm sorry you felt we were deliberately being mean to you.  We were not to know the details of your situation and, to be fair, many people made the point that none of us could give you specific advice because we don't know you and can't see your horse.

It seems you now have a possible reason for the behaviour, which is great for the horse's sake. It is possible you've been lied to by the dealer, of course it's also possible the owners simply kept the information to themselves in the hope that ignorance would be bliss.

Very unfortunate for you but hopefully with that information you'll be able to pursue a successful resolution.


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## cptrayes (13 September 2012)

Polos, When you talk to the dealer you need to  know that unfortunately for him it is NO DEFENCE for him to have been lied to by the previoous owner. As a dealer, what he sells has to be "fit for purpose" - a legal term - whether he knew it was or not.

He is TOTALLY liable in law to take this horse back and give you a full refund. Whether you can make him is another matter altogether. Friends of mine sued, and won, and never saw a penny of the amount they were awarded or the £10,000 it cost them in legal fees.


Personally I wish the owner who had him when he developed this trouble could be prosecuted. It is all their fault for not taking responsibility for him. They have caused him, you and other people heartache and loss.


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## Polos (13 September 2012)

All the comments became a bit too much and made me feel quite down. The situation is already stressful enough without these comments. 

My mum walked with me as it would not have been a wise option to go hacking by myself especially given his behaviour (before we knew the real meaning of it). I never hack by myself from a saftey point of view not from a lack of experience. No one was hacking that day so my mum walked along behind.

The email from the event rider is quite interesting. It turns out he had 6 owners within 2 months just before I bought him. Somewhere down the line he fell into bad hands and he started to misbehave and he was never corrected so he just continued misbehaving. There is a comment in the email that (how we interpreted it- it could mean differently so don't take my word for it) goes along the lines of the dealer telling the event rider that they had sold the horse and if anyone contacted her (the event rider) she was not to mention any unsoundness. We are considering contacting the BHS legal team for some advice. 

regarding the horse, the vet came out today and gave him some danilon and he is on box rest for a week. The vet will return next week to re assess. Unfortunately the option of putting him out to grass for a year is not financially viable for us so we will have to see what the vet says next week. As he seems to have been passed from pillar to post I am hesitant to sell him on after everything is back to normal as he could just get passed around again so we are unsure what to do at this present moment in time.


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## rhino (13 September 2012)

Polos said:



			We are considering contacting the BHS legal team for some advice.
		
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Definitely do this  Do you know when the injury was sustained, as anything tendon or ligament related needs a long recovery period  

Sorry the thread made you feel down, I don't think anyone intended to make you feel bad, but the situation was obviously one many people could relate to. 

Good luck!


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## circuit dancer (14 September 2012)

I know this isn't very helpfull.  But at least now the horse has got some one looking into his leg instead of passing him around,     I do feel for them when they r hurting and no one can or will try for them.     If he didn't come sound in stead of pts.  U cud always see about retirement homes for him. I know he's probably to young but u never know  

Hope it all works out. X


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## Booboos (14 September 2012)

I really feel for you OP, you are paying for other people's calousness in passing this horse on. Do get legal advice, there is a chance you might be able to recoup some of your costs and I hope a solution is found for the horse.


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## Amymay (14 September 2012)

As he seems to have been passed from pillar to post I am hesitant to sell him on after everything is back to normal as he could just get passed around again so we are unsure what to do at this present moment in time.
		
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No, obviously you can't sell him.

I would be fighting the dealer, and looking to keep the horse for you to be able to make a final decision on him.

What a sad, sad story.


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## YasandCrystal (14 September 2012)

Poor you and poor horse it's stressful for them changing homes and owners anyway, but so many changes. My WB had 4 previous owners in the previous 3 years and had moved yards 3 times with just the previous owner. It has taken him 2 years to settle fully. Even without a physical problem it will take your horse months of consistency to settle imo.

I hope you get to the bottom of it and are rewarded by him turning into a sweet loyal horse. If you are insured the full investigation is definately the route to go. Good luck!


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## Goldenstar (14 September 2012)

Polos go to the Epona stars Facebook page which helps people who have been had by unscrupulous dealers it would not solve are your problems but at least you can get advice and support from people who have been in similar situations.
Good luck with it all.


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## Mince Pie (14 September 2012)

I'm sorry if I missed this in one of your previous posts but did you have him vetted OP?


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## TarrSteps (14 September 2012)

Just as a small hopefull story, OP, I know someone who had a similar experience and did, in the end, get at least some of their money back.  In that case the dealer had not been made aware of the horse's history but still had contact info for the original seller who, it turned out, knew full well the horse was compromised.  I'll confess it didn't go through the courts but the original owner did take the horse back and pay the buyer.


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## Patterdale (14 September 2012)

Great idea GS - talk to MrsB and look at Epona Stars on Facebook. For background see the thread 'I think I've been had.'


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

Polos said:



			I have given up reading and replying to the posts as they are just getting more and more negative. to be honest I wish I never asked for advice in the first place! 

I would like to say a couple of things though 

Firsty, I am in no way 'inexperienced' I produced my old pony from jumping off the lead rein classes to jumping newcomers, I have competed in BS up to senior newcomers and at county shows, I completely changed my old horses way of going (he used to charge flat out at jumps but after months of going back to basics and working things back up I had a horse that would jump in a snaffle with no martingale instead of having a pelham and martingale. I have competed in unaff dressage to Novice, I also taught him flying changes, leg yield and shoulder in. I have also worked on a busy livery yard on the weekends and done work exp on a sj yard so I am in no way 'unexperienced'

Secondly the event rider is in no way to blame, we contacted her and had a reply saying that she competed him for an owner and one day she went to get him from the field and he was hopping lame. The vet came out and found he'd done a hind suspensory. The owner was unwilling to pay for treatment and he was passed around a bit before ending up in the dealers. The dealers must have been aware that he'd done a suspensory but they failed to tell us. We have the vet coming out first thing tomorrow to check him over and give us an opinion on his hind suspensory. 

We are going to wait until we hear from the vet before making any decisions. If anyone has any HELPFUL information (not rude, patronising or telling me that i'm a crap owner and rider) on suspensory injuries and recovery please feel free to inbox me, but for now I am done commenting on this post.
		
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I don't know if you read my post about the mare at our yard. She had hind suspensory problems and used to rear up and flip over. She went to Rossdales and was operated on. She then had several months off. But she came back into full work, sound and has never reared since.


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## Fellewell (14 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			We had a horse here for three years that used to rear and fall over backwards. My hubby banned me from riding her. Had the vet several times and nothing was found. Not lame or anything. Then she started to lose her back end occasionally when being lunged or ridden on a circle. Vet came out again and found bilateral hindleg lameness on flexion. Eventually she was diagnosed with upper suspensory desmitis and was operated on. She has never reared since.

However, I would echo what others have said. No way would I pass such a horse on. I would do full medical investigations (probably have a bone scan done) and if nothing wrong was found, would either retire as a field ornament or PTS. From listening to what you say, your horse is extremely dangerous and I would not get back on board.
		
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I read your post Wagtail and jolly fine it was too.

Hope the vet told the OP to ditch that ruddy osteopath!


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## Passtheshampoo (14 September 2012)

I bought a 13.2hh pony through a so called private sale a few years ago for my novice daughter (seller had contacted me via my wanted ad for novice ride, well mannered pony!).  Needless to say when we got the pony home it was nuts rearing constantly straight up in hand. I didn't even attempt to get it tacked up. I contacted the Seller who said it had never reared before. This was definitely learned behaviour and not a one off. I had wondered if I was being conned and after a bit of delving found quite a few adverts from same person, obviously not a private seller! 
To cut a long story short I contacted Trading Standards when talks broke down with the Seller  as the pony wasn't fit for purpose. I threatened to go through the Small Claims Court to recover expenses, purchase cost and at that point the seller agreed to have the pony back. We did lose out financially having to transport the pony back at our cost, keep it for 2wks and shoe, worm it but I was just glad to get the problem off my hands. I certainly wouldn't have liked to have passed that pony onto anyone else as it was dangerous. I'm not sure what happened to it.  Not sure what course of action I'd have taken if they hadn't of taken it back.
If OP hasn't already done so they need to bring this matter to the attention of the Dealer now. Genuine Dealers do have reputations to keep and would hopefully try to find a solution (probably at some financial loss to OP). I personally wouldn't throw any more money at this horse. As others have said trying to find out its history may give OP answers. Could be just a case of being over horsed or a long term injury/pain issue. It's certainly not the happy ever after the OP wanted. Anyone who has had horses for a number of years will perhaps have had something similar happen to them and can appreciate what OP is going through.  
Please let us all know what happens.


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## cptrayes (14 September 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			Poor you and poor horse it's stressful for them changing homes and owners anyway, but so many changes. My WB had 4 previous owners in the previous 3 years and had moved yards 3 times with just the previous owner. It has taken him 2 years to settle fully. Even without a physical problem it will take your horse months of consistency to settle imo.

I hope you get to the bottom of it and are rewarded by him turning into a sweet loyal horse. If you are insured the full investigation is definately the route to go. Good luck!
		
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She is not insured if this is hind leg tendons, this forum publicly records that the horse has a pre-existing condition.


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## scarymare (14 September 2012)

My mare has done a hind suspensory, nobody noticed until she was vetted which she failed obviously and she was sold to me for pocket money as a broodmare.  Paradoxically on the same leg  she degloved her hock (see back for pictures).  When farrier came to trim her last week (about 2.5 years after suspensory) he could lift her back leg as normal which she had never been able to do before.  So I'm guessing its cured then.  There isn't much that 2 years in the field won't cure although I suspect the fact that the leg was rested due to other injury (ie no weight on it) really helped.  I also looked into SWT and operations.  My vet was not optimistic about prognosis though.


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## YasandCrystal (14 September 2012)

scarymare said:



			My mare has done a hind suspensory, nobody noticed until she was vetted which she failed obviously and she was sold to me for pocket money as a broodmare.  Paradoxically on the same leg  she degloved her hock (see back for pictures).  When farrier came to trim her last week (about 2.5 years after suspensory) he could lift her back leg as normal which she had never been able to do before.  So I'm guessing its cured then.  There isn't much that 2 years in the field won't cure although I suspect the fact that the leg was rested due to other injury (ie no weight on it) really helped.  I also looked into SWT and operations.  My vet was not optimistic about prognosis though.
		
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I think most vets are very reserved with giving a good prognosis, which to be fair they have to be as not to raise false hope or scupper any insurance time limitation too.

Talking to Sue Dyson when my WB was diagnosed with his chronic SI dysfunction it seems that many will not try Dr Green and simply retire or have the horse pts. I understand Dr Green is not straightforward for everyone, due to finances and an uncertain outcome etc, but it seems to work in so many cases I hear about.


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			She is not insured if this is hind leg tendons, this forum publicly records that the horse has a pre-existing condition.
		
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But it is anonymous, surely? A new horse of mine came in lame on a hind leg and a massively swollen hock. I had had him 3 weeks so just past the date of inception. Had him xrayed and he was found to have a bone fragment which the vet said was OCD rather than a fracture. Insurance accepted the claim even though if it was OCD (and he was 8) it must have been a pre existing condition.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (14 September 2012)

OP I've no experience in hock/leg injuries or whatever, but just standing with you and expressing my extreme sympathy for you with all this. You don't need it. 

Am hoping that everything will work out OK for you whatever you decide to do with this very problematic horse. Its everyone's worst nightmare, and I'm so sorry its happened.

Good luck anyway. Sorry can't contribute more. But just sending a hug basically.


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## Polos (14 September 2012)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			I'm sorry if I missed this in one of your previous posts but did you have him vetted OP?
		
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Yes he passed a full 5 stage vetting. We also had bloods taken.


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## Polos (14 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			She is not insured if this is hind leg tendons, this forum publicly records that the horse has a pre-existing condition.
		
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He is fully insured with KBIS but we insured him before we knew he had problems with his suspensory so I don't know if he would be covered now. Would it be a good idea to ring them?


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## Patterdale (14 September 2012)

Polos - tread very carefully with the insurance and don't post too much about it on here. It's do able  but you must be very careful to fill the criteria. 

Talk to your vet. Also, who did the vetting? Your vet or theirs?

It's a crap situation but youare not actually in a terrible position if you are canny about it.....


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## YasandCrystal (14 September 2012)

Polos said:



			He is fully insured with KBIS but we insured him before we knew he had problems with his suspensory so I don't know if he would be covered now. Would it be a good idea to ring them?
		
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My horse had passed a 5 stage vetting and his SI dysfunction was in Sue D's opinion chronic and from an old injiury.

We insured in good faith with no knowledge like you of any ailment or unsoundness history. My insurers did not question whether the condition was pre existing and mine was a high value horse. As far as they were concerned he passed a 5 stage vetting end of.

I am sure you are covered otherwise I reckon at least a good 60% of claims could be rejected on pre existing condition criteria. I wouldn't delve too much or discuss to much with your insurers about phone calls and I would heed patterdale's words. Afterall if we all knew what we find out then in hindsight we would never have bought the horse in the first place. You can only protect yourself so far and to have had a vetting and taken out insurance that is exactly what you have done. The vetting mitigates the risk to the insurers and you bought in good faith.


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## Mince Pie (14 September 2012)

Polos said:



			Yes he passed a full 5 stage vetting. We also had bloods taken.
		
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In that case surely you have insurance? Or some come back against the vet if you know for definite there was a pre-existing injury?


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## Goldenstar (14 September 2012)

Polos said:



			Yes he passed a full 5 stage vetting. We also had bloods taken.
		
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I would get those bloods tested make sure they look for a board a range of things  as possible including metacam.


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## Twinkley Lights (14 September 2012)

It's £260 to get the bloods checked so I haven't so far as I suspected a calmer or water withholding etc.  Interesting you have mentioned metacalm.  Think I might have mine checked as at least I can rule out some things.


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## Polos (14 September 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I would get those bloods tested make sure they look for a board a range of things  as possible including metacam.
		
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The bloods are being tested now as we speak. We are awaiting the results and some other various bits of info from his history before we approach the dealer. We want to have some 'evidence' before we speak to them.


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## cptrayes (14 September 2012)

Good luck Polos. When you speak to him, remember the law is on your side if this horse has previous medical history even if he did not know about it.

My comments about insurance probably don't apply after a 5* vetting, but it still wouldn't be wise to write too much more about it on here if you are going to need to claim. 

I feel so sorry for you, and equally as  sorry for the poor horse who has been fobbed off onto you.


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## Polos (22 September 2012)

Thought I would give you all a little update. 

The vet has been to see him twice (will be coming back next week).Last week he was on box rest with all 4 legs bandaged and going out for a hand graze 2 times a day. This week he did some nerve blocks but couldn't find anything. When he was trotted up on hard ground and he was fine but when he was being lunged he would go slightly unsound for a couple of strides and then go back to normal. The vet is wondering if maybe the harder he works the more it affects him so starting from today he is going on bute for 36hrs and then being ridden daily to see whether his rearing is a pain or behavioral issue. He is also being lunged daily. He is back to being turned out so he can go out all day instead of being stuck in his stable which is nice  

Today we went on a little outing to the yard down the road for a charity show and bbq. We entered the inhand tack and turn out (the vet said this would be ok as all he was doing was walking round) and we came 2nd. I actually really enjoyed it, so depending on how things go we may keep him for me to do some in-hand with him.


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## rhino (22 September 2012)

Thank you for the update! I really hope you can work things out


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## Daytona (22 September 2012)

Did the bloods come back ok.?  Are you keeping him then or still going to approach dealer.

Glad u had some fun with him today


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## Meowy Catkin (22 September 2012)

Thanks for the update. I really hope that the Vet can get to the bottom of this and fix him.

Lots and lots of *vibes* for you and your horse.


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## Polos (22 September 2012)

I hope things work out. He is a lovely horse on the ground so we know something somewhere is not right, we just have to find it and treat it. 

Sorry, I forgot to mention, yes the bloods came back clear. We are still going to talk to the dealer (probably beginning of next week as just awaiting a copy of the vetting report).


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## Daytona (22 September 2012)

Good on you for trying for this lad, got my fingers crossed it all turns out good.  And he gets to stay with you guys.  Sound like he lucky to of found you

Best of luck and keep us posted.


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## weebarney (22 September 2012)

charlie76 said:



			One final question,  why are you lunging him 'behind the vertical in  a pessoa '
I would think that would be the last thing a horse with neck issues would need.  Long and low maybe but btv tied in with a pessoa.  Hmmm
		
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Exactly what i was thinking. Gadgets and/ or behind the verticle is sure to aggravate any physical problems.


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## FfionWinnie (22 September 2012)

rhino said:



			Not to the horse it's not. Unless you do believe they are completely disposable. 

Horse went from competing successfully at BYEH as a 5 year old, to going over backwards on a teenager. Surely there has got to be an underlying cause?
		
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Didn't see this before. No I don't think they are disposable. My comment was more aimed at the op's safety than the horse tbh. The why being a separate issue for someone who could cope with the horse. 

I am looking at an ex rearer next week, but I know I can sort it if it erm rears it's ugly head again rolleyes and the history has been disclosed to me which is the difference I think.


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## English Rose (22 September 2012)

I believe this horse could be extremely dangerous but as an animal in your care I feel that you should pursue finding out what the problem is before sending the animal to the dogs. 
I think we really forget that these animals let us get on their backs and boss them around and it's our duty to care for them and make their job as comfortable and as smooth as possible. Riding is a harmony between horse and rider and not all the time we understand or respect each other.
In my experience sometimes respect was instant with my Grand Prix pony back in the day but like with my first pony I had to earn it with her and until we worked hard at our relationship did it finally pay off and she stopped getting my on the floor at every opportunity.
I understand that this horse probably has a serious physical or psychological problem and is dangerous to ride but think you shouldn't just give up after not trying everything possible.
It could be best to put the horse down as horses that flip over like that with no regard for self preservation usually have serious issues but until a verdict is reached after careful consideration and look into the background of the horse I wouldn't do anything so drastic. 
I've worked with and had many difficult horses and sometimes everything isn't always as it seems.

In the mean time I suggest like many others here that you don't continue to ride him until you have had him looked at by some professionals.

Wishing you the best of luck and understand what you are going through. My 5yr old reared up and only just gained balance enough to not flip over jumping last season and I know how scary it can be.


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## brighteyes (23 September 2012)

Polos said:



			I hope things work out. He is a lovely horse on the ground so we know something somewhere is not right, we just have to find it and treat it.
		
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There are very few horses who _aren't_ absoulutely 100% brilliant *as horses.* Efficient and for the most part beautiful, herbivorous herd-animals with deeply-rooted instincts for survival as a prey animal.

I never cease to be amazed at how many of them allow us to completely overturn everything (often even including the grazing) they are designed to be and _still_ appear content and obliging. It's so sad that the unsuitable ones are mostly doomed through no fault of their own.

This is a general observation, not aimed at you, and the best of luck to you with discovering the cause of the rearing. Even better luck to your horse once it is, and I hope there's a job/place for him if the outcome isn't an under-saddle life. 

The reason pain is such an issue is some really can't cope with flight not being an option to them.  Although rearing is about the most objectional and unacceptable thing they do to us as riders, it's a completely natural behaviour.  I'm sure most of us know this and it's not really helped by the stoic creatures we mostly seem to have, but a reminder is always worth giving.

I really hope you get an answer and it's a workable one.


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