# Hind gut acidosis - supplement help please



## cptrayes (27 December 2013)

I am trying to find the right, and most cost effective, supplement to prevent hind gut acidosis in my seven year old gelding, who is very sensitive to changes in grass and other food.

Can you please tell me:

What supplements have you tried that worked?
How much do they cost to feed?

What supplements have you tried that did not work?

I have tried Settlex, with no success.

Omeprazole is 100% effective but illegal for the affordable horse version and difficult for the human version.

His basic diet is ad lib haylage and soaked alfalfa pellets with 50g Brewers yeast.

Thanks for any help you can give. Leftover turkey and dried up Christmas cake are all that's left I'm afraid


----------



## Archiepoo (27 December 2013)

Hi ive always fed yea sac which is alive along side brewers yeast. The  2 together seem to work much better than brewers alone.x


----------



## paulineh (27 December 2013)

Straight forward Sodium Bicarb is good. Can get it off EBay cheaply and it lasts a long time. Cheap to buy too.


----------



## paddy555 (27 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Leftover turkey and dried up Christmas cake are all that's left I'm afraid  

Click to expand...

not very inspiring but I'll still try and help. 

For 2 of mine which have HGA:-

get rid of all molasses
get rid of sugar beet/speedibeet or SB in any form
feed alfalfa pellets and copra. (both soaked)
hay and some grass (in at night) continual forage all night with some left over in the morning

most important is a nice warm rug and sort out the management problems. For one of mine he wants  to be stabled at night with the doors shut, no chance to wander and a very kind but dominant horse stabled with it's head over his stable door all night. For others it is obviously something different but in view of the cost this needs sorting or it is a total waste of money.   

supplements that work for my 2 

am 
limestone flour
salt, 
metabal for one the other doesn't get any
magox
bicarb

pm 
stable label charcoal

then equishure 3 times a day (but that could be twice if necessary) fed at 3 scoops (ie 90g) for aprox 500-525 kg. That is the dose for no grain, some grass and rest in hay.

I have no idea of the cost of that lot and I don't even want to think about it I only know that it works and it took me a long time to get there.

(equishure is 7.2kg £143 from saracen)


----------



## cptrayes (27 December 2013)

Thanks very much people. I've found a mouldy mince pie if that's any better ?

I have stopped the sugar beet yesterday because I realised I don't need to soak beet if I have wet alfalfa to put supplements in.

Coincidentally, he was on yea sacc and brewers yeast together when he got bad this time around, because Iwas in the middle of changing to pro hoof, so that may not be an answer for him.

I have had him on charcoal in the past but it does worry me what other things it may take out than the bad things. I don't remember it being very effective for him either. I didn't finish the huge tub I had and still have some left.

The Settlex is largely calcium and magnesium salts, so limestone flour is probably not going to do the job except in combination with other stuff. I had no idea some horses need so many different things, that's a bit concerning.


I know I should try him on hay but it would be a real problem as I have nowhere to store a hay delivery and I've had real problems with bad hay in bad weather years in the past.

Management issues are OK I think. Out all day on 12 acres of rough grazing, in a barn together with his buddy all night with haylage left in the morning. They seem to get on well and will share food, though the other is certainly the leader he is no bully.

I was so hoping someone would say equishure doesn't work, it's horrendously expensive!!! Still, if he must have it, he must have it.

Any more contributions gratefully received. I'll try and find a better mince pie.

Thanks!


----------



## paddy555 (27 December 2013)

I appreciate times will be hard if he has to have equishure so I have a pack of new, fresh and unopened mince pies I could let you have. They will be a special treat for you before you move onto the bread and water diet after buying equishure. We are already enjoying the bread and water diet as we have 2 on it. 

My comments on equishure in detail are in the hind gut thread in "diet" on phoenix. Financially I wish it hadn't worked but then I just take a look at the horses and see how much happier they are and how their performance has improved. MIne have been on it since 1 Nov and I see no way of going back. It has changed digestion in the hind gut. I suspect the people it doesn't work for may have stomach ulcers as well and that is their real problem. You have obviously dealt with those with omeprazole. 

I agree the comments on charcoal. I seperate it from supplements and as the supplements seem to work I presume this is OK. Not ideal but the horse's comfort is the most important. Charcoal doesn't seem to affect the equishure. 

I'm afraid it is trial and error, bit like barefoot. What one can get away with another horse cannot. 

ps, forgot to include the 200g of linseed per day. sorry.


----------



## cptrayes (27 December 2013)

Paddy that is so kind of you. I can't take a whole pack though, just send me one. Or better make it two or the OH will sulk all week


----------



## Flora (27 December 2013)

My ex racer has been put on to Top spec feeds and no supplements and what a difference. Would definately recommend them.


----------



## Hen (27 December 2013)

Another vote for Equishure - my mare has been on it just 7 days after 6 days finishing up some RiteTrac and is already much more comfortable in herself and happier in work - although I might follow the suggestion above and take her off beetpulp for a bit, see if that helps too, thanks for that tip


----------



## cptrayes (27 December 2013)

Flora said:



			My ex racer has been put on to Top spec feeds and no supplements and what a difference. Would definately recommend them.
		
Click to expand...

This is very interesting. Anecdotally, a lot of barefoot horses go footie on Top Spec products and I have personally seen my friend's horse stop itching the moment he was taken off a Top Spec balancer.

Which one is he on?


----------



## cptrayes (27 December 2013)

Hen said:



			Another vote for Equishure - my mare has been on it just 7 days after 6 days finishing up some RiteTrac and is already much more comfortable in herself and happier in work - although I might follow the suggestion above and take her off beetpulp for a bit, see if that helps too, thanks for that tip 

Click to expand...

I am kicking myself for not thinking about the beet pulp, though in my defence I do de-sugar it. I once had a TB mare who simply would not put on any weight until I took her of beet pulp, totally against what was recommended at the time.


I so do not want to spend fifteen quid a week on equishure.  Please can two people balance this thread by telling me it doesn't work or that something that costs ten p works just as well  !!!


----------



## alsxx (27 December 2013)

Worth reading the thread on hind gut disturbances on the Phoenix forum - I recommended equishure to a few people after very positive results with rite-trac on my TB. I'm now using equishure - highly recommend but pricey! I also still feed bicarbonate and also veg oil. I Do find behaviour is better when getting veg oil in feed.

Essentially with HGA the gut is over acidic, which kills off beneficial bacteria and promotes bad bacteria which then produce even more lactic acid, and so the cycle continues. Overspill from the stomach, too much starch, can all contribute to lowering the ph. I try and feed as small a feed as possible now, and muzzle when on longish grass to stop over spilling and a starch onslaught! And of course ad lib forage when stabled. Equishure works so well though as its a time release buffer (bicarbonate) to ensure it gets to the hind gut. Bicarbonate gets used up in the stomach, and ime whilst I think it does help to a certain extent, it isn't effective enough to raise the ph and break the cycle. Other supplements from what I can see dont target the problem, ie raise the ph, only 'support' the gut, which is likely a waste of time if all your good bacteria are being killed off as the ph is to low!


----------



## RobinHood (27 December 2013)

Would it make you feel better if toId you that RiteTrack has worked for my horse and it's more expensive than EquiShure!?


----------



## cptrayes (27 December 2013)

RobinHood said:



			Would it make you feel better if toId you that RiteTrack has worked for my horse and it's more expensive than EquiShure!?
		
Click to expand...



Oh tons, thank you so much  !!!


----------



## cptrayes (27 December 2013)

alsxx said:



			Worth reading the thread on hind gut disturbances on the Phoenix forum - I recommended equishure to a few people after very positive results with rite-trac on my TB. I'm now using equishure - highly recommend but pricey! I also still feed bicarbonate and also veg oil. I Do find behaviour is better when getting veg oil in feed.

Essentially with HGA the gut is over acidic, which kills off beneficial bacteria and promotes bad bacteria which then produce even more lactic acid, and so the cycle continues. Overspill from the stomach, too much starch, can all contribute to lowering the ph. I try and feed as small a feed as possible now, and muzzle when on longish grass to stop over spilling and a starch onslaught! And of course ad lib forage when stabled. Equishure works so well though as its a time release buffer (bicarbonate) to ensure it gets to the hind gut. Bicarbonate gets used up in the stomach, and ime whilst I think it does help to a certain extent, it isn't effective enough to raise the ph and break the cycle. Other supplements from what I can see dont target the problem, ie raise the ph, only 'support' the gut, which is likely a waste of time if all your good bacteria are being killed off as the ph is to low!
		
Click to expand...

He is such a good doer that I have not dared feed him oil. I do my other one. 

The equishure is 35% fat, so I can see why horses would settle on it.


----------



## alsxx (27 December 2013)

It's basically bicarbonate and hydrogenated veg oil.... Somehow that combination is the time release buffer. So I do wonder if by feeding plain bicarbonate and veg oil I'm somehow simulating the action of the equishure. He's definitely grumpier when my veg oil runs out and I don't replace immediately ie has a few days off it. 

Oh and also stopped feeding beet pulp and noticeable improvement too, wish I'd tried that ages ago lol!!


----------



## whiteflower (27 December 2013)

ive been feeding my sons pony ritetrac (which contains equishure) for a week and seen a massive improvement with him not bitting and putting his ears back when groomed/rugged. 

reading the above people are saying beep pulp isnt good - i feed speedibeet as its unmollassed - can anyone tell me why this is not a good idea as my vet says its good as it contains a high level of pectins yet has no mollasses added???


----------



## paddy555 (27 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



			He is such a good doer that I have not dared feed him oil. I do my other one. 

The equishure is 35% fat, so I can see why horses would settle on it.
		
Click to expand...

mine are both good doers and I give them (each feed) 8oz dry copra (soaked)  8oz dry alfalfa pellets (soaked) and 100g linseed. Although they are relatively small amounts they are sufficient to produce a decent size feed to get stuff down them. My real reason for feeding this though is to soothe the gut and that is what it seems to do. 
I work on the basis that if I can keep them comfortable they can do more work which will help the good doer problem. 


Sorry cannot work out the multi quote thing but the last sentence in Alsxx post 9.15 refers. Everything else I have tried just supports the gut. That is what the copra, alfalfa, does. They all help but they don't actually resolve the problem.


----------



## paddy555 (27 December 2013)

whiteflower said:



			ive been feeding my sons pony ritetrac (which contains equishure) for a week and seen a massive improvement with him not bitting and putting his ears back when groomed/rugged. 

reading the above people are saying beep pulp isnt good - i feed speedibeet as its unmollassed - can anyone tell me why this is not a good idea as my vet says its good as it contains a high level of pectins yet has no mollasses added???
		
Click to expand...

I don't think it is the molasses but that the beet pulp is more indigestible. For many horses I doubt that matters but for gut problem ones it may be more important. That is only a guess. I removed it from my gut problem horses nearly a year ago and noticed improvement. I found copra and alfalfa helped the situation, they certainly didn't hinder it. Sugar beet seemed to hinder it. 

I searched the net for info about sugar beet but there wasn't much to suggest it was a problem and many, like your vet, had good reasons to use it. I just went on evidence based results from when I removed it.


----------



## cptrayes (28 December 2013)

paddy555 said:



			mine are both good doers and I give them (each feed) 8oz dry copra (soaked)  8oz dry alfalfa pellets (soaked) and 100g linseed. Although they are relatively small amounts they are sufficient to produce a decent size feed to get stuff down them. My real reason for feeding this though is to soothe the gut and that is what it seems to do. 
I work on the basis that if I can keep them comfortable they can do more work which will help the good doer problem.
		
Click to expand...

Mine is getting just the alfalfa in about that quantity, plus ad lib haylage overnight and as much rough grass as he can eat during the day,, and he has more weight than he needs, though his ribs are still easily felt.  He's a 17 hand warmblood who simply loathes hacking out, so increasing his work wouldn't be easy. 

On the diet yours are on he'd be putting on weight. I have never come across a horse his size and build who makes so much of his food. It doesn't fit with stomach ulcers and HGA at all !!


----------



## paddy555 (28 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



			It doesn't fit with stomach ulcers and HGA at all !!
		
Click to expand...

I've come to the conclusion that everything said about horses that shouldn't get ulcers due to nice lifestyle, they eat well etc etc is rubbish. With mine I looked for the cause of the problem ie what actually caused the stress. I know the answer for both of them but luckily I know their entire life history. 

Do you know what caused your horse's problem? do you know his early history?


----------



## cptrayes (28 December 2013)

paddy555 said:



			I've come to the conclusion that everything said about horses that shouldn't get ulcers due to nice lifestyle, they eat well etc etc is rubbish. With mine I looked for the cause of the problem ie what actually caused the stress. I know the answer for both of them but luckily I know their entire life history. 

Do you know what caused your horse's problem? do you know his early history?
		
Click to expand...


His early history as far as I know it is very suspicious. He was apparently shipped unbroken from Germany to Holland as a four year old, to the dealer who sources horses for the dealer in the UK I bought him off. They have his half brother, so this much is true, I think. But it's extremely unusual for a horse of his calibre not to have been backed at three in Germany.

He had bull nosed hind feet when I bought him, and I'm on record from then saying that I believed he had laminitis earlier in his life, which may have prevented him being backed earlier and also resulted in him being shipped off to another country to be sold.

I have had one before that was laminitic at two, before I bought him, and when he hit maturity at seven I had to remove him from grazing even though he was eventing BE novice and hard fit.

This one is also now seven, and his gut is as sensitive as hell 

I think the early laminitis primes their gut for issues later in life when their metabolic rate drops due to being fully grown.  It's a theory with some support from research, as the thread on losing weight in winter has shown.

I plan to have him tested for Cushings at his next visit from a vet. Though I suspect his main problem is that he is an extremely introverted worrier. He just cuts off when under stress and does not outwardly express his emotions. And in just now writing that, I have made the connection with the other horse I have described, who was temperamentally very similar. I hadn't thought of that before, because that one was an outright laminitic. But at the time I did not know about copper deficiency in my grazing, and now I supplement copper, leaving just more minor temperament issues when under saddle.  But this horse also got sore feet the first summer I had him, before I started the copper.  Wow, it all ads up!!!


----------



## Goldenstar (28 December 2013)

I am a bit confused here I did not think omperazole was effective for hind gut ulcers in fact I thought its linked to increasing the risk of them .
If you have gastro scoped and found no stomach ulcers then blood work can show the presence of ulcers in the colon.
These are tricky things to manage its my understanding you need reduce bulk in the colon to deal with them restricting the horse to lots a small meals and hand grazing for short periods 
If you think HGU are what you are dealing with you really need specialist help.


----------



## Flora (28 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



			This is very interesting. Anecdotally, a lot of barefoot horses go footie on Top Spec products and I have personally seen my friend's horse stop itching the moment he was taken off a Top Spec balancer.

Which one is he on?
		
Click to expand...


He is on Cool condition cubes, top chop alfalfa, Cool balancer an water! He always has a handful of chaff before riding too.


----------



## paddy555 (28 December 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			If you think HGU are what you are dealing with you really need specialist help.
		
Click to expand...

mine got specialist help. This time last year my vet's bill had come to over £2000 including a stay in vet hospital where he went as an emergency. He was no happier by the time he came home and this time last year I was sent flying onto the ground and ended up badly winded as he seriously kicked me in the stomach due to his pain. He was unrideable.

This year so far it has cost me £75 for equishure, I have the most gorgeous horse who will let me do anything around his backside and who is totally happy and out of pain. He is enjoying every minute of his riding. 

Nothing against vets, they are wonderful, but I have found that this is something you need to think out for yourself. 

CPT, 
if he is an introverted worrier is this why he doesn't like hacking? Is the stress from gut pain making him uncomfortable and completing another worrying cycle? This happened with one of mine.  I can identify with so many of your comments. I have heard this story once before with a KWPN and seen a similar situation with another KWPN. I didn't know enough at the time to recognise it. I know yours is probably a different warmblood but I suspect they may have had the same importing type history and potential for problems. 

So much is regarded as a foot problem , or a diet problem, or a back problem or a conformation problem. Keep thinking. Everything adds up and for me with 2 gut problem horses it certainly hasn't added up in the way that I thought it would do. I guess you will be starting to wonder by now about some of the little things about your horses. Is there another explanation? 

ps for both of mine there has been a happy ending.


----------



## cptrayes (28 December 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			I am a bit confused here I did not think omperazole was effective for hind gut ulcers in fact I thought its linked to increasing the risk of them .
If you have gastro scoped and found no stomach ulcers then blood work can show the presence of ulcers in the colon.
These are tricky things to manage its my understanding you need reduce bulk in the colon to deal with them restricting the horse to lots a small meals and hand grazing for short periods 
If you think HGU are what you are dealing with you really need specialist help.
		
Click to expand...

Where have I said anything about hind gut ulcers?   The horse had probable stomach ulcers which are very often found in horses with kissing spines. He was not scoped for them but he responded exactly as expected to treatment with Omeprazole. The drug is very safe, so please no lectures about not having put him through the stress of being scoped.

I have never seen anything which suggests that Omeprazole increases the risk of hind gut ulcers. But in spite of the fact that it is not the recommended treatment, I have seen many anecdotes that say it does actually resolve symptoms of hind gut ulcers.

What my horse has is not hind gut ulcers, it is hind gut acidosis which is brought on by any change of feed. He was most recently affected by a move to a new season of haylage, exacerbated by wild swings in temperature affecting grass growth and sugars.

He expresses his upset by mild behavioural difficulties when first asked to move faster.  His droppings go shiny, which I have seen before as a precursor to a laminitic response. All these things disappear in three days to Omeprazole, even though in theory they should not.  But as I said before, I'm not the only person who has experienced that effect. 

I know that it is the hind gut which is out of balance because of how he behaved when it was his stomach (girthy), the fact that it began to affect his feet (mildly aching toes causing him to stand under) and some other subtle signs which disappear once he has defecated.  

This horse does not tolerate gut pain in any way. If he currently had ulcers anywhere in his alimentary canal, I would simply not be able to stay on his reaction to them.

Thank you for your concern, but as I have no reason to believe that he has hind gut ulcers, it is misplaced at the current time.


----------



## cptrayes (28 December 2013)

paddy555 said:



			mine got specialist help. This time last year my vet's bill had come to over £2000 including a stay in vet hospital where he went as an emergency. He was no happier by the time he came home and this time last year I was sent flying onto the ground and ended up badly winded as he seriously kicked me in the stomach due to his pain. He was unrideable.

This year so far it has cost me £75 for equishure, I have the most gorgeous horse who will let me do anything around his backside and who is totally happy and out of pain. He is enjoying every minute of his riding. 

Nothing against vets, they are wonderful, but I have found that this is something you need to think out for yourself. 

CPT, 
if he is an introverted worrier is this why he doesn't like hacking? Is the stress from gut pain making him uncomfortable and completing another worrying cycle? This happened with one of mine.  I can identify with so many of your comments. I have heard this story once before with a KWPN and seen a similar situation with another KWPN. I didn't know enough at the time to recognise it. I know yours is probably a different warmblood but I suspect they may have had the same importing type history and potential for problems. 

So much is regarded as a foot problem , or a diet problem, or a back problem or a conformation problem. Keep thinking. Everything adds up and for me with 2 gut problem horses it certainly hasn't added up in the way that I thought it would do. I guess you will be starting to wonder by now about some of the little things about your horses. Is there another explanation? 

ps for both of mine there has been a happy ending.
		
Click to expand...

I've had two warm blood horses in a row who are terrified of hacking. The first was a KWPN. I have never come across the extreme dislike of hacking in any other horses, in spite of my previous history including taking on a number of nappy horses that other people could not manage and sorting them out. The last one was terrified of change, to the extent that he would refuse to pass along a road where daffodils had grown since the last time he went there.  This one turns for home even if it in company with the two horses he lived with!!!

For the moment, I have stopped making him do it, following your theory that we simply have a vicious circle going on with the acid gut and fear of being away from home. His job is dressage anyway and he is working really well following his kissing spines rehab. I had some really special canter this morning 

He really is a gem of a horse, he is so absolutely honest. He loves his work as long as he is not in pain. So the moment his work deteriorates, you know you have to find the reason for the deterioration. 

From the incredible increase in his overtrack in walk and trot, and the softness of his back muscles, I know the kissing spines is all gone. From his reaction to Omeprazole, I know the other issue is gut balance. So all I have to do now is find what keeps his gut stable without drugs. Alfalfa is looking good. Sugar beet removal is looking good.  I'm thinking more of trying a mix of margarine (oil with monoglycerides) and sodium bicarbonate, which from what I have researched is pretty much what equishure is.

I'm very interested that you had a proper investigation done. I certainly don't feel it will benefit mine, whose only really noticeable symptom is some gentle protest about being asked to get a move on


----------



## paddy555 (28 December 2013)

goodl luck CPT. There is no single answer. It only appears in hindsight!!! don't they all! Personally I wouldn't see much point in investigation as you are still down to management. Keeping the hind gut stable and I am sure that is different for each horse. What stresses one doesn't stress another. 

I will be interested to hear how you get on. So much is linked. 

Equishure is bicarb and hydrogenated veg oil. I have no idea what they do to it. I do know it reaches the hind gut. However, if you find cheap solution my bank balance will be eternally grateful!


----------



## alsxx (28 December 2013)

Cptrayes, I've also heard that omeprazole can negatively affect the hind gut. For what it's worth, mine was scoped and had grade 4 stomach ulcers, and what followed was a 5 month course of omeprazole. His behaviour actually deteriorated during treatment and he became very reluctant to go forward, and would try and swing his quarters out to the right, as well as becoming reluctant to canter left. As we were already at the vets I had this looked at and I ended up with a vague 'it's his hock', which was medicated.

It wasn't until my usual vet went on mat leave and we started seeing another vet, that we finally got the cause of the problem. HGA - she recommended rite trac, and we had a brilliant discussion regarding the probability that the HGA was why I had a TB that was hugely grass sensitive (had a bout of laminitis). Subsequent research/reading I have done also suggests right hind issues are another symptom of HGA. We've had no recurrence of that hock problem in 2.5 years since it was medicated, which on the basis this is a rising 13 yr old ex racehorse that ran almost 50 times, I actually find surprising.... But wait, when the HGA flairs up, he starts to back off and becomes harder to keep straight. Coincidence??

Sorry to ramble.... But worth considering the omeprazole may be helping one thing, only to hinder another.


----------



## cptrayes (28 December 2013)

Thanks alsxx. That is very interesting. I am keen to find a  dietary solution. He's not a severe case, it should be possible.


----------



## cptrayes (28 December 2013)

Duplicate


----------



## Goldenstar (28 December 2013)

I feel EUGSIN was the supplement I had most success with .
And I have also heard excellent things about Suceed .


----------



## Archiepoo (28 December 2013)

We have a 2yr old warmblood x ID and he has a liquid bowel -nothing comes out of him solid. We have tried brewers yeast and omeprazole to no avail 
 We have since discovered he was hand reared as his mother died during his birth . He has never produced a solid poo. He smells terrible! He definitely has acidosis but we think its because he never ate poo as a new foal to populate his bowel with the correct flora. We are currently toying with the idea of feeding him poo from a healthy horse to see if repopulating his bowel will help. We are working with the theory that nothing we do will make any difference if he doesnt have the bacteria to start with!


----------



## Tnavas (28 December 2013)

cptrayes - this is not so much to do with hindgut acidosis but recently a nutrtionist suggested that horse be given a small bulk feed shortly prior to riding as it stops acid slopping around reducing the risk of ulcers and for those with ulcers it buffers them.

plum duff - the feeding of poo from a healthy horse will be the best thing you could ever do for this horse - I have seen it done to a pony with severe runs and within days he came right.


----------



## nikkimariet (28 December 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			I feel EUGSIN was the supplement I had most success with .
And I have also heard excellent things about Suceed .
		
Click to expand...

Egusin? If so, this has already been recommended (the SLH, anyway). It has turned PS' notoriously tricky boy with ulcers around. He's a PSG horse that even hacks now, cptrayes 

Please give the Egusin SLH a go. It may be the miracle supplement for yours as it was for ours.


----------



## Silverfire (28 December 2013)

Not quite the same as acidosis but my 3.5yr old filly has a hind gut problem. She has a thickened bit of large intestine with a small impaction before it, it can be felt rectally. Shes had this at least two years now, might even have been born with it, don't know...   Twice she has had gastrogard and both times it made her mildly colicky/uncomfortable all the time, i didn't know she had the thickened bit of large intestine problem when she had the gastrogard but i will never give her any again. Mix of gastrogard, steroids and sedation badly affected her, twice,  and it took months to get her right, when she was quite bad with it she was quite weak on her back legs each time, the left hind slightly worse and her problem bit of intestine is on her leftside but don't know if that had anything to do with that, i thought it was probably because she was spending a lot of time lying down, she was also stupidly spooky, shes a spooky sort anyway but was much worse back then. Also really dragged her back toes, which she does also do for a few days after sedation (sedation really slows her gut movement).  A few months of doxycycline sorted all that out after which i looked at the different supplements available for hindgut problems but in the end decided to try micronized linseed, pink powder and a Vit E supplement. She has been on these almost a year now and so far she is doing well on them (touchwood!).  She is about 400kg and has 500 grams of micronized linseed a day split into 4 feeds with speedibeet, grass nuts and a handful bran to soak up the water as she also has tooth problems and hates watery feeds.  She has adlib hay and no grass at all.


----------



## Frozen Hoof Boots (28 December 2013)

One month RiteTrac followed by Equishure should help settle.  Used both very successfully.  Dramatic Result with RiteTrac in 48 hours. Expensive but effective.


----------



## cptrayes (28 December 2013)

Tnavas said:



			cptrayes - this is not so much to do with hindgut acidosis but recently a nutrtionist suggested that horse be given a small bulk feed shortly prior to riding as it stops acid slopping around reducing the risk of ulcers and for those with ulcers it buffers them.
.
		
Click to expand...


He is always feed immediately before riding. It's just my normal routine so I didn't have to change anything when I found out that it was good for horses with ulcers.


----------



## cptrayes (28 December 2013)

nikkimariet said:



			Egusin? If so, this has already been recommended (the SLH, anyway). It has turned PS' notoriously tricky boy with ulcers around. He's a PSG horse that even hacks now, cptrayes 

Please give the Egusin SLH a go. It may be the miracle supplement for yours as it was for ours.
		
Click to expand...

I was hoping PS would tell me what she used. Thanks


----------



## springtime1331 (28 December 2013)

My mare is on the egusin SLH and I feel we have an improvement whilst on it. It is expensive though and would be very interested in the bicarb and oil idea. What sort of quantities would we be talking about for a 500kg horse?


----------



## cptrayes (28 December 2013)

Silverfire said:



			Not quite the same as acidosis but my 3.5yr old filly has a hind gut problem. She has a thickened bit of large intestine with a small impaction before it, it can be felt rectally. Shes had this at least two years now, might even have been born with it, don't know...   Twice she has had gastrogard and both times it made her mildly colicky/uncomfortable all the time, i didn't know she had the thickened bit of large intestine problem when she had the gastrogard but i will never give her any again. Mix of gastrogard, steroids and sedation badly affected her, twice,  and it took months to get her right, when she was quite bad with it she was quite weak on her back legs each time, the left hind slightly worse and her problem bit of intestine is on her leftside but don't know if that had anything to do with that, i thought it was probably because she was spending a lot of time lying down, she was also stupidly spooky, shes a spooky sort anyway but was much worse back then. Also really dragged her back toes, which she does also do for a few days after sedation (sedation really slows her gut movement).  A few months of doxycycline sorted all that out after which i looked at the different supplements available for hindgut problems but in the end decided to try micronized linseed, pink powder and a Vit E supplement. She has been on these almost a year now and so far she is doing well on them (touchwood!).  She is about 400kg and has 500 grams of micronized linseed a day split into 4 feeds with speedibeet, grass nuts and a handful bran to soak up the water as she also has tooth problems and hates watery feeds.  She has adlib hay and no grass at all.
		
Click to expand...

Crumbs you've had some problems there. Well done for coping with them.  I was intrigued by one bit of what you wrote, and that is that my boy started to drag his hind toes ever so slightly when he got touchy to ride, and that has now gone again so it seems it was connected.


----------



## Archiepoo (28 December 2013)

Have a look at this thread it compares rite trac which used to be neigh-lox and other supplements   http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...n-Rite-Trac-(used-to-be-quot-Neigh-lox-quot-).


----------



## nikkimariet (28 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I was hoping PS would tell me what she used. Thanks 

Click to expand...

I think I mentioned it you on the omeprazole thread  I do hope it works for Ace.



springtime1331 said:



			My mare is on the egusin SLH and I feel we have an improvement whilst on it. It is expensive though and would be very interested in the bicarb and oil idea. What sort of quantities would we be talking about for a 500kg horse?
		
Click to expand...

It is expensive at first - but CS is now on a maintenance dose and perfectly happy with that. Although we increase it slightly on show days.


----------



## cptrayes (28 December 2013)

springtime1331 said:



			My mare is on the egusin SLH and I feel we have an improvement whilst on it. It is expensive though and would be very interested in the bicarb and oil idea. What sort of quantities would we be talking about for a 500kg horse?
		
Click to expand...

Someone else said they are feeding 90 grams in three lots. It's 35% fat and 18% sodium of my memory serves me right (it's on their site). The ingredient list also states monoglycerides, but when I looked that up I found its an emulsifier used to bind oil and water into a solid. So I reckon if you feed about 50g of margarine mixed thoroughly with 50g of bicarbonate of soda, available in 25kg sacks from eBay, that would mimic equishure. I think I'd mix it and leave it overnight. 

If I was using equishure now, I'd try replacing one dose at a time and see what happens.


----------



## springtime1331 (28 December 2013)

NM - what do you give as a maintenance dose? Also did you stay on the SLH or move onto the 250? We've only had one 5kg tub of SLH so far. 

CPT - thanks for that, I will give it a go. I wonder if I should have a bash with it before my next tub of egusin arrives? Won't get here till the 3rd and mare was vile today. Tried to simultaneously bite and kick whilst putting her saddle on, but fine to girth. Then in school was grinding to a halt, threatening all sorts of naughtiness and wanted me off after approximately 5 mins. Was a much nicer girl on the egusin but finished 21 day course 4 days ago.


----------



## Holly Hocks (28 December 2013)

Bicarb of soda helps mine. You can buy it in bulk online.


----------



## Tnavas (28 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Someone else said they are feeding 90 grams in three lots. It's 35% fat and 18% sodium of my memory serves me right (it's on their site). The ingredient list also states monoglycerides, but when I looked that up I found its an emulsifier used to bind oil and water into a solid. So I reckon if you feed about 50g of margarine mixed thoroughly with 50g of bicarbonate of soda, available in 25kg sacks from eBay, that would mimic equishure. I think I'd mix it and leave it overnight. 

If I was using equishure now, I'd try replacing one dose at a time and see what happens.
		
Click to expand...

If using margerine - really read the ingredients carefully as many have some form of dairy product in them - I was really surprised at this' when searching for Dairy free for baking for my friends little girl who is totally dairy free.


----------



## cptrayes (28 December 2013)

plum duff said:



			Have a look at this thread it compares rite trac which used to be neigh-lox and other supplements   http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...n-Rite-Trac-(used-to-be-quot-Neigh-lox-quot-).
		
Click to expand...

That thread illustrates how much this is trial and error and how every horse is individual. There are some posts on there about how effective Settlex is, whereas mine was on a big dose of Settlex as a preventative when I changed to the new season haylage, gradually over a week, and it didn't prevent anything!  

It seems that there are only good reports of equishure, rite-Trac and egusin, so if he does not settle with the change to alfalfa and no beet, I will probably test margarine/bicarb and then one of the others if that does not work.


----------



## cptrayes (28 December 2013)

Tnavas said:



			If using margerine - really read the ingredients carefully as many have some form of dairy product in them - I was really surprised at this' when searching for Dairy free for baking for my friends little girl who is totally dairy free.
		
Click to expand...

Ooh, thanks for that. It never occurred to me.


----------



## cptrayes (28 December 2013)

springtime1331 said:



			NM - what do you give as a maintenance dose? Also did you stay on the SLH or move onto the 250? We've only had one 5kg tub of SLH so far. 

CPT - thanks for that, I will give it a go. I wonder if I should have a bash with it before my next tub of egusin arrives? Won't get here till the 3rd and mare was vile today. Tried to simultaneously bite and kick whilst putting her saddle on, but fine to girth. Then in school was grinding to a halt, threatening all sorts of naughtiness and wanted me off after approximately 5 mins. Was a much nicer girl on the egusin but finished 21 day course 4 days ago.
		
Click to expand...

Mine is  a saint compared to that    He just does a go slow and kicks out if you put your leg on. And he looks for things to spook at.

I'd try it, why not, Tesco have both ingredients, open tomorrow. You'll be mighty cross if it works and then a very expensive but now unnecessary supplement is delivered, though!!


----------



## paddy555 (29 December 2013)

I am feeding 90g of equishure however I feed predominently hay (with grass in the day time but the grass is limited as by the time they have come in, been groomed, ridden for a couple of hours it takes a fair amount out of their grass time) ) If I was feeding haylege I suspect I would need more than 90g. I fed marksway hh a couple of years ago to a couple of horses for a very short time and it affected the hind gut adversly compared to hay. 

In view of the cost I did consider mixing my own "equishure" but then decided it would probably be inconclusive. It may work but if it didn't I would be no further forward as I still would not know if that resolved my problem. 

Once it worked there was no going back and I wouldn't replace it, maybe see if it could be reduced slightly, but the benefits have been too great. 

BTW I have found that all bicarb is not created equal. I ran out of bicarb and it was on back order. I ordered a kg from somewhere else. It was clear from the horse that it was of lesser quality. A cheap sack of bicarb on e bay would be a non starter for mine.


----------



## Goldenstar (29 December 2013)

nikkimariet said:



			Egusin? If so, this has already been recommended (the SLH, anyway). It has turned PS' notoriously tricky boy with ulcers around. He's a PSG horse that even hacks now, cptrayes 

Please give the Egusin SLH a go. It may be the miracle supplement for yours as it was for ours.
		
Click to expand...

Yup that's what I meant .
Thanks


----------



## cptrayes (29 December 2013)

paddy555 said:



			I am feeding 90g of equishure however I feed predominently hay (with grass in the day time but the grass is limited as by the time they have come in, been groomed, ridden for a couple of hours it takes a fair amount out of their grass time) ) If I was feeding haylege I suspect I would need more than 90g. I fed marksway hh a couple of years ago to a couple of horses for a very short time and it affected the hind gut adversly compared to hay. 

In view of the cost I did consider mixing my own "equishure" but then decided it would probably be inconclusive. It may work but if it didn't I would be no further forward as I still would not know if that resolved my problem. 

Once it worked there was no going back and I wouldn't replace it, maybe see if it could be reduced slightly, but the benefits have been too great. 

BTW I have found that all bicarb is not created equal. I ran out of bicarb and it was on back order. I ordered a kg from somewhere else. It was clear from the horse that it was of lesser quality. A cheap sack of bicarb on e bay would be a non starter for mine.
		
Click to expand...


I know in my heart that he would be better off on hay, but it would be so difficult to manage compared to wrapped haylage    The current batch of haylage (a year's supply from my normal supplier) smells acidic when I open it. 

Some bicarb isn't food grade and I would not buy that, but there seem to be reputable suppliers of 100% sodium bicarbonate on eBay. I've bought ten kilos from one of them, and a 2kg tub of vegetable only 'spread' from Bookers and I am going to wean him slowly off Omeprazole to prevent acid bounceback  and onto that and see what happens.

At £1 a kilo, I can whack the dose up to whatever he will eat  



Thanks to everyone who pointed out the stuff about long term Omeprazole use. It is anecdotal at the moment, but that doesn't make it untrue. And in any case I would prefer a drug free horse, of course.


----------



## Goldenstar (29 December 2013)

Have you tried hyperdrug for bicarb ?


----------



## cm2581 (29 December 2013)

Have you considered feeding any clays such as montmorillonite? (sp?!) I've just seen some impressive results from an emergency diarrhea dose of 97g twice a day. Daily use would be much less that this though or you would probably end up with an impaction! The stuff I got from my vet was called Bio-Sponge but at £60 (no that isn't a typo!!) a day I'm looking into an alternative!!!!


----------



## paddy555 (29 December 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Have you tried hyperdrug for bicarb ?
		
Click to expand...

this is the one that I use and by far the most effective one. It is £16 incl del for 5kg. More expensive but then you get what you pay for and for this sort of problem quality counts. You can feed any quantity of a cheaper one but if it is not as effective then it is pretty inconclusive and you are simply left without an answer. 

I am afraid, and I have struggled down the hind gut route for some time now, money talks. The problem can be resolved but it costs in suitable feed, forage and supplements. I am sorry your haylege may possibly be acidic.I think this may partially be the cause of your problems.

I have found that dealing with hind gut problems is the same as successful barefoot. You can trim the horse as many times as you want, put whatever else on it's feet,  etc etc etc but until you obey the basic rules of diet, reduce the grazing, get a muzzle, feed minerals or whatever you simply have a horse that "doesn't do barefoot". 
There are so many posts on here of people wanting to go barefoot, they don't manage it but are unwilling to change the diet or make the necesssary changes.  Hind gut problems to me are the same, hay may be difficult to manage but it may be a large part of the solution.


----------



## nikkimariet (29 December 2013)

springtime1331 said:



			NM - what do you give as a maintenance dose? Also did you stay on the SLH or move onto the 250? We've only had one 5kg tub of SLH so far.
		
Click to expand...

CS gets 135g approx a day, split over 3 feeds.

We basically dropped it down as far as we could with him remaining comfortable. Any lower than that and he gets grumpy and sod-like lol.

We stuck with the SLH.



Goldenstar said:



			Yup that's what I meant .
Thanks
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't picking on your spelling - just didn't know if we were talking about same thing  (my spelling is horrendous!)


----------



## Tiddlypom (29 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I know in my heart that he would be better off on hay, but it would be so difficult to manage compared to wrapped haylage  .
		
Click to expand...

How about getting half a dozen bales and storing them in the wagon/trailer for now. If you find that he really is better on hay, then surely you could rig up a cheap small covered area to store it?


----------



## Tnavas (29 December 2013)

Tiddlypom said:



			How about getting half a dozen bales and storing them in the wagon/trailer for now. If you find that he really is better on hay, then surely you could rig up a cheap small covered area to store it?
		
Click to expand...

When desperate for storage I mad a shed with old pallets and tarpaulins. 

Use two layers of pallets as a floor, with a tarpaulin secured between them, keeps out rising damp and vermin (to a reasonable degree) then bolt the next lot to them as sides then attach the plastic tarpaulins, sealing the seams with duct tape - secure the tarpaulins to the 
pallets using a strip of wood to reduce the chance of ripping. For the door hang two or more tarpaulins that overlap to help waterproof.

Once the hay is inside the whole thing is quite stable. 

If you can't build the above stack the hay and cover with tarpaulins weighting it down with old plastic milk containers filled with water. Friends of mine used to store all their hay like this - they used layers of straw as a base to protect the bottom bales.


----------



## Holly Hocks (29 December 2013)

I buy my bicarb from Hyperdrug - 5kg lasts for ages.


----------



## cptrayes (29 December 2013)

Tiddlypom said:



			How about getting half a dozen bales and storing them in the wagon/trailer for now. If you find that he really is better on hay, then surely you could rig up a cheap small covered area to store it?
		
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying, but I've had very bad experiences of getting hold of decent hay in the past in years of bad weather, and I will not buy anything that I have not seen grown, since a local farmer cut, baled and sold ragwort contaminated hay. I've been buying a years small bale haylage at a time for more than a decade, and the idea of having to have small amounts of hay delivered and cover it with tarpaulin is a bit of a nightmare.

I know these are excuses that can be overcome if I have to, but at the moment his symptoms just aren't  severe enough to make me do it. If I can't stabilise him by the time this harvest runs out next September, he will go onto hay.


----------



## cptrayes (29 December 2013)

cm2581 said:



			Have you considered feeding any clays such as montmorillonite? (sp?!) I've just seen some impressive results from an emergency diarrhea dose of 97g twice a day. Daily use would be much less that this though or you would probably end up with an impaction! The stuff I got from my vet was called Bio-Sponge but at £60 (no that isn't a typo!!) a day I'm looking into an alternative!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for this but he never gets the squits so I don't think it would h be the right stuff for him.


----------



## cptrayes (29 December 2013)

nikkimariet said:



			CS gets 135g approx a day, split over 3 feeds.

We basically dropped it down as far as we could with him remaining comfortable. Any lower than that and he gets grumpy and sod-like lol.

We stuck with the SLH.



I wasn't picking on your spelling - just didn't know if we were talking about same thing  (my spelling is horrendous!)
		
Click to expand...

CS was a tough case, I know. If my home made equishure doesn't work it will be my first port of call for full price stuff.


----------



## cptrayes (29 December 2013)

paddy555 said:



			this is the one that I use and by far the most effective one. It is £16 incl del for 5kg. More expensive but then you get what you pay for and for this sort of problem quality counts. You can feed any quantity of a cheaper one but if it is not as effective then it is pretty inconclusive and you are simply left without an answer. 

I am afraid, and I have struggled down the hind gut route for some time now, money talks. The problem can be resolved but it costs in suitable feed, forage and supplements. I am sorry your haylege may possibly be acidic.I think this may partially be the cause of your problems.

I have found that dealing with hind gut problems is the same as successful barefoot. You can trim the horse as many times as you want, put whatever else on it's feet,  etc etc etc but until you obey the basic rules of diet, reduce the grazing, get a muzzle, feed minerals or whatever you simply have a horse that "doesn't do barefoot". 
There are so many posts on here of people wanting to go barefoot, they don't manage it but are unwilling to change the diet or make the necesssary changes.  Hind gut problems to me are the same, hay may be difficult to manage but it may be a large part of the solution.
		
Click to expand...


This horse is rock crunching barefoot, so his gut is a minor issue, which just presents some ridden behaviours that I can do without 

100% food grade sodium bicarbonate is 100% food grade sodium bicarbonate. Provided you buy from a reputable supplier, paying more than you need to is pointless.


----------



## Archie73 (29 December 2013)

paddy555 said:



			this is the one that I use and by far the most effective one. It is £16 incl del for 5kg. More expensive but then you get what you pay for and for this sort of problem quality counts. You can feed any quantity of a cheaper one but if it is not as effective then it is pretty inconclusive and you are simply left without an answer. 

I am afraid, and I have struggled down the hind gut route for some time now, money talks. The problem can be resolved but it costs in suitable feed, forage and supplements. I am sorry your haylege may possibly be acidic.I think this may partially be the cause of your problems.

I have found that dealing with hind gut problems is the same as successful barefoot. You can trim the horse as many times as you want, put whatever else on it's feet,  etc etc etc but until you obey the basic rules of diet, reduce the grazing, get a muzzle, feed minerals or whatever you simply have a horse that "doesn't do barefoot". 
There are so many posts on here of people wanting to go barefoot, they don't manage it but are unwilling to change the diet or make the necesssary changes.  Hind gut problems to me are the same, hay may be difficult to manage but it may be a large part of the solution.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly this.
Moved yard, Fed wet haylage got leg swelling, footiness, dislike of grooming over belly and behind saddle,( but at the time I was confused as horse also showing a secondary lameness) anyway long storey short, fed bicarb, yea sacc, symptoms eased especially footiness within 24 hours then switched back to soaked hay and carried on with bicarb for a couple of weeks, horse now off bicarb on dry hay or hay and haylage if the bales are off the more dry type and is fine. 

I will be using bicarb for spring grass without a doubt.


----------



## cptrayes (29 December 2013)

Archie73 said:



			Exactly this.
Moved yard, Fed wet haylage got leg swelling, footiness, dislike of grooming over belly and behind saddle,( but at the time I was confused as horse also showing a secondary lameness) anyway long storey short, fed bicarb, yea sacc, symptoms eased especially footiness within 24 hours then switched back to soaked hay and carried on with bicarb for a couple of weeks, horse now off bicarb on dry hay or hay and haylage if the bales are off the more dry type and is fine. 

I will be using bicarb for spring grass without a doubt.
		
Click to expand...

I'm finding myself quite reassured by how mild my boy's symptoms are compared to other people's. I hope bicarbonate works for you in spring.


----------



## paddy555 (29 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



			This horse is rock crunching barefoot, so his gut is a minor issue, which just presents some ridden behaviours that I can do without 

100% food grade sodium bicarbonate is 100% food grade sodium bicarbonate. Provided you buy from a reputable supplier, paying more than you need to is pointless.
		
Click to expand...

rock crunching doesn't come into it. The only difference resolving ulcers has made to one horse's feet is in how he stands and therefore how they wear M/L. It has made no difference to going over stones. In the other it has made no difference at all. He has had hind gut problems for a very long time but could go over anything. This was to some extent how I missed them as I assumed a gut problem horse would be a footy one. 

I agree paying more is pointless. I just totally wasted the money buying the food grade one and the horse deteriorated whilst I got him back onto the proper one. 

I took a few minutes to read some of the commments on your blog, I presume the horse is Ace. I recognised references to downhill, doesn't like hacking, nappy, anxious and spooky. Those were ridden behaviours I was certainly glad to be rid of in ours.


----------



## cptrayes (29 December 2013)

paddy555 said:



			rock crunching doesn't come into it. The only difference resolving ulcers has made to one horse's feet is in how he stands and therefore how they wear M/L. It has made no difference to going over stones. In the other it has made no difference at all. He has had hind gut problems for a very long time but could go over anything. This was to some extent how I missed them as I assumed a gut problem horse would be a footy one. 

I agree paying more is pointless. I just totally wasted the money buying the food grade one and the horse deteriorated whilst I got him back onto the proper one. 

I took a few minutes to read some of the commments on your blog, I presume the horse is Ace. I recognised references to downhill, doesn't like hacking, nappy, anxious and spooky. Those were ridden behaviours I was certainly glad to be rid of in ours.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, those are behaviours that reduce markedly on Omeprazole. I'm very interested in your reference to downhill problems, as that was a new one this autumn and I was concerned about hocks.  There has been some difficulty separating HGA symptoms from the fear of pain he was left with after his kissing spines operation, but that's now resolved and its clear that what he has now is a problem with his gut.

It isn't easy to judge anything by his feet because the back operation has made the most astonishing changes to his whole movement, with a straightening of the front legs and a massive overtrack from the back. It's been something of a miracle

Why can these creatures never be easy?!?!


----------



## Tnavas (29 December 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I'm very interested in your reference to downhill problems, as that was a new one this autumn and I was concerned about hocks.
		
Click to expand...

Not liking going downhill can also be a neck alignment problem. my horse that was eventually manipulated under anaesthetic hated going downhill and would also not jump down banks - once the neck was fixed this was never a problem again.


----------



## cptrayes (29 December 2013)

Tnavas said:



			Not liking going downhill can also be a neck alignment problem. my horse that was eventually manipulated under anaesthetic hated going downhill and would also not jump down banks - once the neck was fixed this was never a problem again.
		
Click to expand...

Another one for my data bank, thanks


----------



## cptrayes (2 January 2014)

Update on the fake equishure.

It's easy to make. It's cheap.

And it's a pain in the proverbial to mix into the food!!!!

I'm going to try oil and bicarb and if that doesn't work, stump up the cash for egusin.


----------



## Tnavas (2 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Update on the fake equishure.

It's easy to make. It's cheap.

And it's a pain in the proverbial to mix into the food!!!!

I'm going to try oil and bicarb and if that doesn't work, stump up the cash for egusin.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe adding bran to make the mix will make it crumbly rather than gooey - you could use either wheat bran or oat bran


----------



## paddy555 (2 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Yes, those are behaviours that reduce markedly on Omeprazole. I'm very interested in your reference to downhill problems, as that was a new one this autumn and I was concerned about hocks.  There has been some difficulty separating HGA symptoms from the fear of pain he was left with after his kissing spines operation, but that's now resolved and its clear that what he has now is a problem with his gut.

It isn't easy to judge anything by his feet because the back operation has made the most astonishing changes to his whole movement, with a straightening of the front legs and a massive overtrack from the back. It's been something of a miracle

Why can these creatures never be easy?!?!
		
Click to expand...

sorry I missed your post. 

downhill for mine was to do with the hind gut problem. Once the problem was under control that resolved. 
Why I don' know. You said something to the effect yours didn't like going off down the hill but was much happier going the other way. Down hill produced the worst behaviour and that was even produced in hand with a set on reins on and me just walking by his side. I don't know if it is gravity and the hind gut pushing forwards causing discomfort. The spooking, and boy we certainly had that, seems directly proportional to hind gut ulcer/acidocis pain. (maybe also to stomach ulcer pain) remove the pain and the difficult part of the spooking goes

The KWPN one I knew with this problem didn't like hacking and was taken out with a baby sitter to try and make him happier about it. 

For horses that don't appear to like hacking with this I think it is to do with fear. I am not sure what the fear is actually of but it appears more that they like to be carried along every step with a very strong confident rider totally in charge.  I would think in the enclosed environment of a school they would be happier, the contained boundaries making them safer. Going out seems to be a lack of comfort. I try to make sure mine has something happening every couple of steps, a stroke, a couple of words, half halt, jiggle of the rein, anything so he knows that he is not alone. 

I had a very long time of trying to sort this out with one. If I was leading him and a tractor came close (and he lives with our tractor) he would start to panic (when he had the worst HGA). I would lead him up onto a bank and put myself between him and the tractor. He had plenty of room to run away and could have run off over the common. He chose to jump towards me (and the tractor) and jump on top of me as if he was a dog trying to jump into my arms for comfort. 

When he was really bad I led him out in hand. If I ignored the spooking he really couldn't cope, he was so unfocused. It I became a reallly strong leader and took him in hand he was much happier. 

It might be just mine but pain and spookiness etc etc from HGA type problems doesn't appear to leave a fear of pain as some injuries do. With mine it was as if a switch had been turned. Ride out with HGA they didn't want to go, were spooking, not very safe etc. Remove the pain and a normal horse. 

I wonder if warmbloods are prone to this? If they are shifted around a lot  when young, possibly sressed by this and their training  giving rise to the potential for gut problems but people assume they are just big "thick"  horses so it doesn't matter as much as say a TB. (that is not to say that anyone's warmblood is thick but could they just be horses that put up with a lot and internalise their problems)


----------



## cptrayes (2 January 2014)

paddy555 said:



			For horses that don't appear to like hacking with this I think it is to do with fear. I am not sure what the fear is actually of but it appears more that they like to be carried along every step with a very strong confident rider totally in charge.  I would think in the enclosed environment of a school they would be happier, the contained boundaries making them safer. Going out seems to be a lack of comfort. I try to make sure mine has something happening every couple of steps, a stroke, a couple of words, half halt, jiggle of the rein, anything so he knows that he is not alone.

 .............

I wonder if warmbloods are prone to this? If they are shifted around a lot  when young, possibly sressed by this and their training  giving rise to the potential for gut problems but people assume they are just big "thick"  horses so it doesn't matter as much as say a TB. (that is not to say that anyone's warmblood is thick but could they just be horses that put up with a lot and internalise their problems)
		
Click to expand...


Interestingly, the two warmbloods I have had who hated hacking get/got worse the more you push/ed them. (One is dead, sorry about the messy grammar). I have a long history paying peanuts for bad nappy horses and sorting them out with strong leadership. This pair would/will simply not have it, and the more you push the more they escalate/d.  I have never had the problem with any other breeding. It's definitely rooted in fear though. I can feel and hear the heart racing away.

The boy this thread is about has a separate spooking problem which I know is gut related and back pain related. If I can remove both problems, the spooking at home disappears. Whether we can get rid of it in a competition situation is still to be discovered.


----------



## cptrayes (2 January 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Maybe adding bran to make the mix will make it crumbly rather than gooey - you could use either wheat bran or oat bran
		
Click to expand...

I'm using ground alfalfa , it's just too much of a faff


----------



## Tnavas (2 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I'm using ground alfalfa , it's just too much of a faff 

Click to expand...

Food Processor?


----------



## JoClark (4 January 2014)

Have you tried Protexin?

http://www.protexin.com/products/gut-balancer/5

This is a good gut balancer, including hind gut.  If you go on facebook and like the page, Anna will answer any questions you have.

I'm a little confused with the speedibeet, is it not good for horses with ulcers or acidic stomach?  ive never heard that before just sugarbeet??? Very interested in this.

My horse seems uncomfortable on calm and condition as there is so much bulk once you soak it, does anyone else have this problem, he eats then cribs constantly and sometimes stretches his jaw.  Im currently moving him onto top spec comprehensive balancer and cool conditioning cubes with alfa a oil, if any one has any views on this it will be helpful?


----------



## paddy555 (4 January 2014)

JoClark said:



			Have you tried Protexin?

[
I'm a little confused with the speedibeet, is it not good for horses with ulcers or acidic stomach?  ive never heard that before just sugarbeet??? Very interested in this.

My horse seems uncomfortable on calm and condition as there is so much bulk once you soak it, does anyone else have this problem, he eats then cribs constantly and sometimes stretches his jaw.  Im currently moving him onto top spec comprehensive balancer and cool conditioning cubes with alfa a oil, if any one has any views on this it will be helpful?


Click to expand...

I found that my 2 gut problem horses didn't do well on sugar beet. (this is either molassed or unmolassed) it seems to "hinder" their digestion and they were less happy. I changed to soaked alfalfa pellets and copra. This seemed to "help" digestion. Some others seem to have reached the same conclusion. I can only think that it is because it is not as easily digestible for horses with these problems. 

No doubt many will be fine on it and some will improve without it. Just a case of removing it to see. 

Top spec balancer is a definite no no for me. It made my barefoot horse footsore. That lasted for a long time as I eliminated everything else in his diet but thought the TS couldn't be the cause. He was a lot sounder after I chucked it away. 
I have had others on TS balancer but never seen particuarly good results especially for the price. 

The best hard feed for mine, after a lot of trial and error,  is alfalfa pellets/copra and micronised linseed. I think I put some comments on them earlier in this thread.


----------



## cptrayes (4 January 2014)

paddy555 said:



			I found that my 2 gut problem horses didn't do well on sugar beet. (this is either molassed or unmolassed) it seems to "hinder" their digestion and they were less happy. I changed to soaked alfalfa pellets and copra. This seemed to "help" digestion. Some others seem to have reached the same conclusion. I can only think that it is because it is not as easily digestible for horses with these problems. 

No doubt many will be fine on it and some will improve without it. Just a case of removing it to see. 

Top spec balancer is a definite no no for me. It made my barefoot horse footsore. That lasted for a long time as I eliminated everything else in his diet but thought the TS couldn't be the cause. He was a lot sounder after I chucked it away. 
I have had others on TS balancer but never seen particuarly good results especially for the price. 

The best hard feed for mine, after a lot of trial and error,  is alfalfa pellets/copra and micronised linseed. I think I put some comments on them earlier in this thread.
		
Click to expand...


There is a fair amount of anecdotal evidence against Top Spec with barefoot horses.

With sugar beet, I'm guessing that horses are not really designed to digest it that well. Normally, anything that they ate would grow above ground. They would only have dug up roots in the absence of anything else to eat. I've stopped feeding it after reading this thread, but also because I soak the alfalfa so I don't need soaked sugar beet to put supplements in.

Things are going well so far, I've got him up to 20g sodium bicarb and 50ml oil in each feed.


----------



## paddy555 (5 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Things are going well so far, I've got him up to 20g sodium bicarb and 50ml oil in each feed.
		
Click to expand...

is it reaching the hind gut?


----------



## cptrayes (5 January 2014)

paddy555 said:



			is it reaching the hind gut?
		
Click to expand...

How do I know 

Equishure is sodium bicarbonate buffered in oil. I'm giving him sodium bicarbonate buffered in oil. If equishure does, why would this not?

He isn't on a full dose yet, and I don't expect it to correct an imbalance in hind gut flora overnight. Time will tell.


----------



## doriangrey (5 January 2014)

How about freezing the hydrogenated fat and bicarb mixture and then grating through a fine grater with a food processor.  Then you can just refreeze the grated mixture.  Might work ..... might not.


----------



## cptrayes (5 January 2014)

doriangrey said:



			How about freezing the hydrogenated fat and bicarb mixture and then grating through a fine grater with a food processor.  Then you can just refreeze the grated mixture.  Might work ..... might not.
		
Click to expand...

Grate idea 

I'm too lazy, I'd rather buy it


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (5 January 2014)

Genuinely  interested to hear how this goes, keep updating please


----------



## cptrayes (5 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Genuinely  interested to hear how this goes, keep updating please 

Click to expand...

No problem PS, I'M going to be following you into egusin if it doesn't work.

At the moment, I can say that all his ' bad' behaviour - kicking out a hind leg when I put my leg on - sharp spooking and looking for excuses to do it, were all but gone today in spite of icy cold wind this morning (which previously would set off a fear of back pain as well, and is therefore his most testing weather. ) He also looks back at his side when on the lunge to the right. That's disappeared. And a look that he gets on his face before his first poo on the lunge/ridden, as if he is uncomfortable, has disappeared today too.

BUT I am still weaning him off Omeprazole slowly, so as not to get acid bounceback, and that would normally also have produced this improvement, so at the moment the picture is confused.

But what I can say is that he has always had droppings on the small side, and yet now I am seeing consistently plump balls of exactly the right moisture content. That is definitely new.

If you can  promise me if I go onto egusin I'll get a lovely PSG like your boy who wasn't even bred to do it, I'll buy it now


----------



## katherine1975 (5 January 2014)

I too have been following this thread with interest and would like to know what you finds works best for your horse. Please keep posting.


----------



## Fuzzypuff (7 January 2014)

This is all really interesting. I also just recently read the thread on Phoenix Horse. The symptoms are very similar to that of my boy - he was scoped for ulcers over a year ago, had only grade 1-2 and I never felt that gg was the whole answer for him. We have had several relapses and I've never quite found the solution yet. I have tried a lot of things! Succeed I tried for 3 months and I didn't feel worked. I did also try Egusin, with that it is difficult to say for sure because he was on box rest with a fracture at the time, however he was still girthy etc. so I would say it wasn't the answer either (I tried it for 2 big tubs). However, he is a poor doer but got fat on it - but again, he was on box rest so it could have been that. I did try Gastro Plus too and this seemed the most effective. The second batch of GP ran out a few weeks ago and he is having a bit of a relapse again, he is girthy, very touchy particularly on right side (I couldn't clip around stifles, especially on right, even sedated), bucking and broncing when ridden and I never know how much I can put my leg on and how he will react. Not long after the GP finished I also ran out of Yeasacc, so I'm not sure which is the ultimate culprit. I have yeasacc on order so he is going back on that. I have also ordered some bicarb from hyperdrug to try. I already feed corn oil so I think I'm going to mix the bicarb into the oil and add that and see how we go. If this gives a small amount of improvement or none at all I will try the Equishure, at least you can get a 10 day supply for £36 to try. Oh, and he has been on both Nettex Gut balancer (courtesy of free trial) and Protexin gut balancer for a while and these aren't helping.


----------



## cptrayes (7 January 2014)

Isn't it interesting how many horses seem to have these problems. Are we all doing something wrong? Or did we just used to belt them one and carry on??

All signs of gut discomfort have gone in my horse and he is easily eating 30g of bicarb in each feed, which I intend to increase to 50g as soon as I can. I can now kick him if I need to, with no reaction other than the one I want.


----------



## wench (7 January 2014)

Not read all nine pages worth, but I have used a product called Aquacid in the past with success.


----------



## Frozen Hoof Boots (7 January 2014)

My horses reactions were kicking out to outing your leg on specifically right side.  Very moody bad tempered.  Backing up in the stable even continued trying to go backwards when he'd hit the wall.  Stinking poos.  Two rounds of gas colic.  He felt unridable to the point where he napped (totally out of character) so badly out hacking and stressed himself out that after returning home I turned him out in the field, he laid down and was colicking for the second time.  He kept having mild colic episodes every day for the next two weeks. Despite trying Coligone power, then Feedmark ulcer calm didn't work. Coligone liquid helped to bring him out of the mild colic so  I kept on at the vet and had to really push for scoping and did lots of research as I felt all the signs indicated ulcers.  Sure enough he did when scoped.  Went on GG for a month not much better and then tryed Sucralflate it got mildly better but not 100%. 
My vet then recommended RiteTrac as we discussed options (he wanted a re scope, I said no) we discussed hind gut acidosis as a possible cause and without feeling like a broken record about using it for the millionth time using RiteTrac was a miracle that in 48 hours of being on it I was riding him again after not being able to for months... And he felt amazing.  £2k insurance for ulcers whereas £90 tub of Ritetrac sorted it so quickly.  I do use Bicarb in the summer mainly for his feet sometimes But I tend to put it in one of his water buckets so he has a free choice to self medicate if he needs it or not.


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (8 January 2014)

Fuzzypuff said:



			This is all really interesting. I also just recently read the thread on Phoenix Horse. The symptoms are very similar to that of my boy - he was scoped for ulcers over a year ago, had only grade 1-2 and I never felt that gg was the whole answer for him. We have had several relapses and I've never quite found the solution yet. I have tried a lot of things! Succeed I tried for 3 months and I didn't feel worked. I did also try Egusin, with that it is difficult to say for sure because he was on box rest with a fracture at the time, however he was still girthy etc. so I would say it wasn't the answer either (I tried it for 2 big tubs). However, he is a poor doer but got fat on it - but again, he was on box rest so it could have been that. I did try Gastro Plus too and this seemed the most effective. The second batch of GP ran out a few weeks ago and he is having a bit of a relapse again, he is girthy, very touchy particularly on right side (I couldn't clip around stifles, especially on right, even sedated), bucking and broncing when ridden and I never know how much I can put my leg on and how he will react. Not long after the GP finished I also ran out of Yeasacc, so I'm not sure which is the ultimate culprit. I have yeasacc on order so he is going back on that. I have also ordered some bicarb from hyperdrug to try. I already feed corn oil so I think I'm going to mix the bicarb into the oil and add that and see how we go. If this gives a small amount of improvement or none at all I will try the Equishure, at least you can get a 10 day supply for £36 to try. Oh, and he has been on both Nettex Gut balancer (courtesy of free trial) and Protexin gut balancer for a while and these aren't helping.
		
Click to expand...

i think i would really try and use one thing at a time, changing nothing else, and not keep mixing and matching and letting things run out otherwise you wont ever know what is working?! I am VERY careful to only change one thing at a time and NMT and I keep careful track of what we changed when so we are attributing changes to the right thing.



cptrayes said:



			Isn't it interesting how many horses seem to have these problems. Are we all doing something wrong? Or did we just used to belt them one and carry on??

All signs of gut discomfort have gone in my horse and he is easily eating 30g of bicarb in each feed, which I intend to increase to 50g as soon as I can. I can now kick him if I need to, with no reaction other than the one I want.
		
Click to expand...

more horses on livery struggling with limited pasture so kept in more maybe?

thanks for update.


----------



## cptrayes (8 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i think i would really try and use one thing at a time, changing nothing else, and not keep mixing and matching and letting things run out otherwise you wont ever know what is working?! I am VERY careful to only change one thing at a time and NMT and I keep careful track of what we changed when so we are attributing changes to the right thing.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with this. 





			more horses on livery struggling with limited pasture so kept in more maybe?

thanks for update.
		
Click to expand...

Quite possibly. Wish it was that simple with mine, he has twelve acres and is only stabled to eat hard food and be tacked up. It's just his previous pain from his back and introvert worrying nature, I think. 

Today I have him on 50g of bicarb in 100ml of oil  in damp alfalfa with no trouble at all. Now we will stick there with that in both feeds, allow his gut to stabilise the bugs in its new less acidic environment, and see what the result of weaning off the Omeprazole is. 

I'm now thanking my lucky stars that he doesn't behave like some of the other horses people have written about on this thread!


----------



## stimpy (8 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Today I have him on 50g of bicarb in 100ml of oil  in damp alfalfa with no trouble at all.
		
Click to expand...

How exactly are you making this?   Are you measuring the oil and putting the bicarb in to that, mixing it and then adding to the alfalfa?  Or are you adding the oil and the bicarb individually to the damp alfalfa and mixing it there?

I have tried adding bicarb to water but that has been unceremoniously rejected.  I'd like to add bicarb to the feed but we already have enough problems getting the feed eaten consistently due the other minerals that are in there...


----------



## Fuzzypuff (8 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i think i would really try and use one thing at a time, changing nothing else, and not keep mixing and matching and letting things run out otherwise you wont ever know what is working?! I am VERY careful to only change one thing at a time and NMT and I keep careful track of what we changed when so we are attributing changes to the right thing.
		
Click to expand...

I already do this, I keep a diary of when things run out and what other conditions there are at the time as well as his behaviour. I only didn't rush to replace the yeasacc as I have previously not noticed it make much of a difference, but he is normally on it as standard anyway. There are also outside factors which are likely to be causing changes in his gut, namely changes in the grazing, so it's not possible to always say that something is definitely down to a change that I have made - it could be the time of year that I either added or took away yeasacc before it wasn't making as much of a difference as it might be now. 

The reason I have tried so many different things was because I had him scoped on insurance and used the remaining insurance money to try and find a long-term solution in the form of a supplement. It was bad luck that he got a fracture when I was starting him on the Egusin, I would have preferred to have tried it when he was in work, but at the time I was mainly worried about whether he would need surgery or ever be ridden again, so I didn't think to set it aside until later.



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			more horses on livery struggling with limited pasture so kept in more maybe?
		
Click to expand...

I think it's a combination of factors of how we keep horses these days - less horses living out, more stressed grazing, more horses fed concentrates/feeds the horse's digestive system is not designed for. However I think many horses would (and still are) just dismissed as "naughty" and either "worked through it" or passed on


----------



## cptrayes (8 January 2014)

stimpy said:



			How exactly are you making this?   Are you measuring the oil and putting the bicarb in to that, mixing it and then adding to the alfalfa?  Or are you adding the oil and the bicarb individually to the damp alfalfa and mixing it there?

I have tried adding bicarb to water but that has been unceremoniously rejected.  I'd like to add bicarb to the feed but we already have enough problems getting the feed eaten consistently due the other minerals that are in there...
		
Click to expand...

I put the oil in a pot and spoon in the bicarb and stir it. Then I pour it all around the top of the alfalfa and stir it in.  He gets copper and brewers yeast and mag oxide in the morning feed too. Having said that, this particular horse will eat wormer, Bute and antibiotics in feed without batting an eyelid.

I increased it from 10g to 50g over about a week.


----------



## Tnavas (8 January 2014)

stimpy said:



			How exactly are you making this?   Are you measuring the oil and putting the bicarb in to that, mixing it and then adding to the alfalfa?  Or are you adding the oil and the bicarb individually to the damp alfalfa and mixing it there?

I have tried adding bicarb to water but that has been unceremoniously rejected.  I'd like to add bicarb to the feed but we already have enough problems getting the feed eaten consistently due the other minerals that are in there...
		
Click to expand...

Try adding peppermint oil to the mix - it hides a multitude of smells and tastes and great if your horse already likes peppermints


----------



## stimpy (9 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I put the oil in a pot and spoon in the bicarb and stir it. Then I pour it all around the top of the alfalfa and stir it in.  He gets copper and brewers yeast and mag oxide in the morning feed too. Having said that, this particular horse will eat wormer, Bute and antibiotics in feed without batting an eyelid.

I increased it from 10g to 50g over about a week.
		
Click to expand...

Fab, that's what I wanted to know, thanks.


----------



## stimpy (9 January 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Try adding peppermint oil to the mix - it hides a multitude of smells and tastes and great if your horse already likes peppermints
		
Click to expand...

Funny, I was thinking about doing that when I was having trouble getting the mineral mix down them all. I may yet give that a go to get the bicarb in this one. I assume I should try to get food grade peppermint oil? Most of what I see for sale is essential oil.


----------



## Fuzzypuff (9 January 2014)

I read the following on another forum where someone had this reply from KER who make RiteTrac and Equishure which might be useful to people: 

'You DEFINITELY want to add RiteTrac at the last minute before feeding because some of the ingredients do start releasing when in contact with water. Not a problem as long as it doesn't sit with water for a long time.'

Based on this I think when I start adding my bicarb and oil, I'm going to try and find a way that they are mixed and tipped in at the last minute (not so easy for breakfast where whole yard is fed by whoever arrives first).


----------



## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

Fuzzypuff said:



			I read the following on another forum where someone had this reply from KER who make RiteTrac and Equishure which might be useful to people: 

'You DEFINITELY want to add RiteTrac at the last minute before feeding because some of the ingredients do start releasing when in contact with water. Not a problem as long as it doesn't sit with water for a long time.'

Based on this I think when I start adding my bicarb and oil, I'm going to try and find a way that they are mixed and tipped in at the last minute (not so easy for breakfast where whole yard is fed by whoever arrives first).
		
Click to expand...


Looking at it before putting it in the feed, the oil gets into every tiny grain of the bicarb, so I think the water problem is either reduced or removed.

For the overnight one, can you leave it ready mixed in a cup with a stirrer for the person who feeds to do a quick last minute mix?

Mine was quieter to ride today than he has ever been in his life. It's too early to say whether the bicarb/oil has done this, it could be a multitude of things, but it was very noticeable. Maybe he's ill???


----------



## ihatework (9 January 2014)

I appreciate that the logisitcs of feeding hay can be difficult for some, especially surrounding storage & getting good quality.

But for this horse trying to at least trial him on hay for me is a complete no-brainer. 
Wrapped hay - It's not easy to get hold of and is expensive, but could be worth trying to get a months worth to try?
Otherwise regular bales the old fashioned way - pallets & tarpauline?

e.g. http://www.colehay.co.uk/wrapped-hay.asp


----------



## Fuzzypuff (9 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Looking at it before putting it in the feed, the oil gets into every tiny grain of the bicarb, so I think the water problem is either reduced or removed.

For the overnight one, can you leave it ready mixed in a cup with a stirrer for the person who feeds to do a quick last minute mix?

Mine was quieter to ride today than he has ever been in his life. It's too early to say whether the bicarb/oil has done this, it could be a multitude of things, but it was very noticeable. Maybe he's ill???
		
Click to expand...


Yes I think that's what I'll do, I have some little pots I can use, and I can even leave a note in there with it. Complicated much?!

Hopefully yours isn't ill and it's the bicarb!


----------



## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

ihatework said:



			I appreciate that the logisitcs of feeding hay can be difficult for some, especially surrounding storage & getting good quality.

But for this horse trying to at least trial him on hay for me is a complete no-brainer. 
Wrapped hay - It's not easy to get hold of and is expensive, but could be worth trying to get a months worth to try?
Otherwise regular bales the old fashioned way - pallets & tarpauline?

e.g. http://www.colehay.co.uk/wrapped-hay.asp

Click to expand...

Unfortunately it is not a no brainer or I would have done it. I keep two, soon to be three, horses in a barn overnight together. This would mean storing significant quantities of hay, or keeping him separated which is likely to cause him sufficient anxiety to bring on ulcers. I am also of the opinion that hay should not be fed unless soaked, and soaking that quantity of hay and then handling it wet is not to be sneezed at in winter when you live at 1100 feet.


----------



## ihatework (9 January 2014)

Your horses. your choice.
For me it's still a no-brainer given the transformation I have seen in specific examples of horses on hay v haylage
Good luck


----------



## nikkimariet (9 January 2014)

ihatework said:



			Your horses. your choice.
For me it's still a no-brainer given the transformation I have seen in specific examples of horses on hay v haylage
Good luck
		
Click to expand...

Agree with this.

If there was a chance something might work, I'd do it. The worst that can happen is that it doesn't work.


----------



## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

Be a boring world of we were all the same


----------



## Fuzzypuff (9 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I put the oil in a pot and spoon in the bicarb and stir it. Then I pour it all around the top of the alfalfa and stir it in.  He gets copper and brewers yeast and mag oxide in the morning feed too. Having said that, this particular horse will eat wormer, Bute and antibiotics in feed without batting an eyelid.

I increased it from 10g to 50g over about a week.
		
Click to expand...

My bicarb has just arrived. Do you know how many g are in a scoop? I have pretty much every size of scoop at the yard.


----------



## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

Fuzzypuff said:



			My bicarb has just arrived. Do you know how many g are in a scoop? I have pretty much every size of scoop at the yard.
		
Click to expand...

By a happy coincidence, it weighed in for me at exactly 1g per ml. My 50  ml scoop weighed 50g 

I have thought this morning's ride through and he really was VERY different from normal. I can't ride tomorrow but I will report next time I do.


----------



## katherine1975 (9 January 2014)

Please could you tell me how much oil and bicarb you feed each day and what type of oil. Thank you.


----------



## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

katherine1975 said:



			Please could you tell me how much oil and bicarb you feed each day and what type of oil. Thank you.
		
Click to expand...

I have gone by Paddy555 telling me that they feed 90g of equishure a day. I checked up the things that it's made of, and reckoned that a close approximation for a big horse like mine was 50g bicarb in 100ml of oil, in each feed, which for mine is twice a day. I use Tesco vegetable oil, which is rapeseed oil. Some people will frown at that, but I have fed my other horse it for years to keep his weight on hunting, with no problems. And it's cheap!!


----------



## katherine1975 (9 January 2014)

Thank you.


----------



## paddy555 (10 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Unfortunately it is not a no brainer or I would have done it. I keep two, soon to be three, horses in a barn overnight together. This would mean storing significant quantities of hay, or keeping him separated which is likely to cause him sufficient anxiety to bring on ulcers. I am also of the opinion that hay should not be fed unless soaked, and soaking that quantity of hay and then handling it wet is not to be sneezed at in winter when you live at 1100 feet.
		
Click to expand...


I agree it should be soaked. We are at 1000ft although I am not sure why that matters and it takes me an extra 10 mins a day to soak. I soak for 10 (around 5 bales when it is snow or ice and they cannot get any grass)


----------



## cptrayes (10 January 2014)

paddy555 said:



			I agree it should be soaked. We are at 1000ft although I am not sure why that matters and it takes me an extra 10 mins a day to soak. I soak for 10 (around 5 bales when it is snow or ice and they cannot get any grass)
		
Click to expand...


I admire your fortitude. Personally at my age I find standing out on a peak park hilltop in freezing temperatures and howling gales to soak hay, and then freeze my fingers handling it into the barn wet,  beyond what I am prepared to do until I have ruled out using some bicarb and oil. Not to mention what the devil you do when your water supply is frozen, and the next days  hay also freezes overnight Though that has only happened twice so far this winter, it would have been a total of a couple of months of last winter.

Incidentally bicarb and oil appears to be having a fairly dramatic effect on his personality in the last couple of days. But time will tell.


----------



## paddy555 (10 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I admire your fortitude. Personally at my age I find standing out on a peak park hilltop in freezing temperatures and howling gales to soak hay, and then freeze my fingers handling it into the barn wet,  beyond what I am prepared to do until I have ruled out using some bicarb and oil. Not to mention what the devil you do when your water supply is frozen, and the next days  hay also freezes overnight Though that has only happened twice so far this winter, it would have been a total of a couple of months of last winter.

Incidentally bicarb and oil appears to be having a fairly dramatic effect on his personality in the last couple of days. But time will tell.
		
Click to expand...

good to hear about the bicarb. 

not much fortitude I am afraid, far too old for that!!! Simply a case of put hay in bath in barn, switch tap on and pull plug when soaked. No frozen water, everything is  lagged. It lasted a couple of months with us last winter as well.


----------



## Mike007 (11 January 2014)

If you buy good hay ,there is seldom any need to soak it. Storage is easy, mini polytunnel sheds make great hay stores. Also ,good hay is NEVER unavailable,regardless of the summer. It meerely costs more,but it is still always cheaper than hard feed ,suplements and vets bills.Haylage is in my opinion a feedstuff of last resort for those horses with copd because their owners fed bad hay. It causes more problems than it solves.


----------



## cptrayes (11 January 2014)

paddy555 said:



			good to hear about the bicarb. 

not much fortitude I am afraid, far too old for that!!! Simply a case of put hay in bath in barn, switch tap on and pull plug when soaked. No frozen water, everything is  lagged. It lasted a couple of months with us last winter as well.
		
Click to expand...


You may a complete bath full of water overnight . ???

I can wake to a bucket of water frozen sold in winter. Before I set up a running water system, I used to have heaters in my water buckets.


----------



## cptrayes (11 January 2014)

Mike007 said:



			If you buy good hay ,there is seldom any need to soak it. Storage is easy, mini polytunnel sheds make great hay stores. Also ,good hay is NEVER unavailable,regardless of the summer. It meerely costs more,but it is still always cheaper than hard feed ,suplements and vets bills.Haylage is in my opinion a feedstuff of last resort for those horses with copd because their owners fed bad hay. It causes more problems than it solves.
		
Click to expand...


You are not up to date, I think, with research on dust and mould spotes in even the best quality hay.

My friends, I, and thousands of other horse owners have fed haylage for 20 years with no issues.

 this mild problem with my own horse was caused by a change to the new season haylage, an upset which could equally well have occurred with hay.

I find haylage far easier to use than hay, and if I can resolve a mild gut imbalance with a few pence of bicarb, then I will continue to use it, but thanks  anyway.


I will add that there is haylage and haylage just like there is hay and hay. I do not use ryegrass haylage, mine is meadow haylage, which I believe is better for horses.



ps. Given that in the last two winters high winds we have had trouble keeping the conservatory attached to the house on our exposed hilltop, I had a laugh out loud at the idea of being able to stop a polytunnel from going on a pilgrimage


----------



## cptrayes (11 January 2014)

For spotes read spores 

For may, read lag 

For sold, read solid


----------



## Tiddlypom (11 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Mine was quieter to ride today than he has ever been in his life. It's too early to say whether the bicarb/oil has done this, it could be a multitude of things, but it was very noticeable. Maybe he's ill???
		
Click to expand...

Let's hope that you aren't accidentally poisoning him with this homemade concoction.

A trial of soaked hay would be so much safer, and the worst that could happen is that it makes no difference...... (And soaking hay really is a doddle, I do it all the time ).


----------



## Mike007 (11 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			You are not up to date, I think, with research on dust and mould spotes in even the best quality hay.

My friends, I, and thousands of other horse owners have fed haylage for 20 years with no issues.

 this mild problem with my own horse was caused by a change to the new season haylage, an upset which could equally well have occurred with hay.

I find haylage far easier to use than hay, and if I can resolve a mild gut imbalance with a few pence of bicarb, then I will continue to use it, but thanks  anyway.


I will add that there is haylage and haylage just like there is hay and hay. I do not use ryegrass haylage, mine is meadow haylage, which I believe is better for horses.



ps. Given that in the last two winters high winds we have had trouble keeping the conservatory attached to the house on our exposed hilltop, I had a laugh out loud at the idea of being able to stop a polytunnel from going on a pilgrimage 

Click to expand...

If up to date means believing everything we are told by "researchers"working for companies trying to sell us somthing ,without checking it against reality and experience,then I certainly am not "up to date".On the other hand I do have over 40 years experience of selling hay and straw,and direct knowlege of how many hundreds of my customers horses have fared on the various regimes they imposed.
    Yes there will always be some mould spores . They even exist in the stems of the growing plant.And as haylage start to dry ,it too disperses mould spores.Mould spores are everywhere ,they are a fact of life on this planet. And horses cope quite adequately with them ,in general. What both horses and humans cannot cope with is large amounts and in particular , the Aspergillus mould .This creates an allergic reaction and permanently damages the breathing. This is not due to hay ,it is due to feeding hay that should never have been anywhere near horses , and should have been burnt.
 As for thousands of horse owners feeding haylage without any issues. This is certainly not my experience. If I were to put a figure on it ,I would say that of all the horses I have known on haylage, at least 75% have had some sort of problem. Digestive upsets ,colic, Ulcers. And this figure doesnt include those that develop various vices due to feeling permanently hungry from lack of fibre. However, as I mentioned earlier,haylage has saved many horses with copd and in that respect it has a place as a last resort.But the trick is not to let them get ill in the first place.


----------



## cptrayes (11 January 2014)

Tiddlypom said:



			Let's hope that you aren't accidentally poisoning him with this homemade concoction.

A trial of soaked hay would be so much safer, and the worst that could happen is that it makes no difference...... (And soaking hay really is a doddle, I do it all the time ).
		
Click to expand...


My home made concoction contains exactly what is found in a very expensive supplement called Equishure. Nothing more, and nothing less. It also contains only two things, both of which are routinely feed by thousands of people, either alone or together, on adaily basiis.

How exactly do you think I could be poisoning him??

You may find soaking hay a doddle. I would not find buying, storing, soaking and handling wet hay in mid winter remotely a doddle.

Tell you what, you do what you want and I'll do what I want, bargain?


----------



## cptrayes (11 January 2014)

Mike007 said:



			If up to date means believing everything we are told by "researchers"working for companies trying to sell us somthing ,without checking it against reality and experience,then I certainly am not "up to date".On the other hand I do have over 40 years experience of selling hay and straw,and direct knowlege of how many hundreds of my customers horses have fared on the various regimes they imposed.
    Yes there will always be some mould spores . They even exist in the stems of the growing plant.And as haylage start to dry ,it too disperses mould spores.Mould spores are everywhere ,they are a fact of life on this planet. And horses cope quite adequately with them ,in general. What both horses and humans cannot cope with is large amounts and in particular , the Aspergillus mould .This creates an allergic reaction and permanently damages the breathing. This is not due to hay ,it is due to feeding hay that should never have been anywhere near horses , and should have been burnt.
 As for thousands of horse owners feeding haylage without any issues. This is certainly not my experience. If I were to put a figure on it ,I would say that of all the horses I have known on haylage, at least 75% have had some sort of problem. Digestive upsets ,colic, Ulcers. And this figure doesnt include those that develop various vices due to feeling permanently hungry from lack of fibre. However, as I mentioned earlier,haylage has saved many horses with copd and in that respect it has a place as a last resort.But the trick is not to let them get ill in the first place.
		
Click to expand...



Whew, that a relief Mike. I was pretty certain I was going to get home and log on to find you giving me advice about my conservatory and securing a polytunnel. Shows how wrong you can be 

Of all the horses owned by my friends and I, the only two to have a problem with haylage are one with Cushings, which is due to the calorie level not the haylage per se, and mine, who was set off by the change of batch coinciding with abnormally warm winter weather and a grass flush, which could equally well have happened with hay.

The equitation centre near me sell a mountain of haylage a year including supplying the veterinary hospital and their own 100 or so resident horses. Three other producers in the same area sell at least as much again between them, making at least half a million in sales in this area alone. Friends of mine run a 100 box livery yard where they supply their own home made haylage.  If it caused the problems you suggest, then it would be a lot more obvious than it is.


----------



## zigzag (11 January 2014)

I have read this thread with interest, and tbh I cannot believe you won't try a little trial with just feeding hay rather than haylage, Also I am sure Equishure is NOT tesco Veg oil and bicarb lol


----------



## Tiddlypom (11 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Tell you what, you do what you want and I'll do what I want, bargain?
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough. Odd reaction, though, from someone who who is asking for advice about a horse with issues. Several of us have pointed out a very easy management change (substituting hay for hayledge) and been rebuffed.

Carry on, I shall bother you no more!


----------



## cptrayes (11 January 2014)

Tiddlypom said:



			Fair enough. Odd reaction, though, from someone who who is asking for advice about a horse with issues. Several of us have pointed out a very easy management change (substituting hay for hayledge) and been rebuffed.

Carry on, I shall bother you no more!
		
Click to expand...


I think you'll find if you check that the first time the idea of  swapping to hay was suggested was by me, followed immediately by an explanation of why I wanted to try other things first, which was promptly ignored by a number of people trying to tell me how wrong I am and that everything that I know would be difficult will be easy if only I listen to them


----------



## cptrayes (11 January 2014)

zigzag said:



			I have read this thread with interest, and tbh I cannot believe you won't try a little trial with just feeding hay rather than haylage, Also I am sure Equishure is NOT tesco Veg oil and bicarb lol
		
Click to expand...

It's vegetable oil and bicarb. Check the website for the spec.

This horse has eaten haylage perfectly well for three years. He has been temporarily upset by a change of batch giving very mild ridden symptoms of kicking out when I put my leg on, now all gone.

Right at this moment, I fail to see why it would be a sensible move on my part to completely change the management of three horses in a way which will make life much more difficult for me.

It's my choice. Live with it


----------



## paddy555 (11 January 2014)

zigzag said:



			no I don't think it is. I fed bicarb before equishure. It did help but did not make it to the hind gut. Equishure is an extremely expensive product that seems to do what it says on the tin for those horses that have that particular problem. Tesco oil and bicarb it ain't!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## zigzag (11 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			It's vegetable oil and bicarb. Check the website for the spec.

This horse has eaten haylage perfectly well for three years. He has been temporarily upset by a change of batch giving very mild ridden symptoms of kicking out when I put my leg on, now all gone.

Right at this moment, I fail to see why it would be a sensible move on my part to completely change the management of three horses in a way which will make life much more difficult for me.

It's my choice. Live with it 

Click to expand...

I don't need to live with it, I don't care what you do to your horse, I am just surprised you asked for advice, several people suggested not feeding haylage and you would not consider it


----------



## cptrayes (11 January 2014)

zigzag said:



			I don't need to live with it, I don't care what you do to your horse, I am just surprised you asked for advice, several people suggested not feeding haylage and you would not consider it
		
Click to expand...

Which bit are you finding hard to understand?

I had ALREADY considered it, and said so, before anyone else suggested it. So don't get on your high horse about me ignoring advice, it is other people ignoring what I have already written that I'm getting fed up with.


----------



## cptrayes (11 January 2014)

Deleted


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (11 January 2014)

Back to ace....can you explain what's diff about him?  ta


----------



## cptrayes (11 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Back to ace....can you explain what's diff about him?  ta
		
Click to expand...

Quieter in the eye. Spongy/soft in temperament. No overreaction to my leg. Bigger, softer balls of poo that break open easily. No fluid following a poo. Drastically reduced tail flashing (this is a very long standing habit of his since before I bought him, probably due to his back, but also present with gut issues).  No digital pulses.

He did have shiny poo this morning - which is a sign of gut disturbance to me and usually goes with raised pulses, but in this case I believe was simply the oil that I am using to carry the bicarb.

He did skip this morning when I asked for his first trot much sooner than usual, but that is a leftover from the back operation I think. The rest of his work was very sweet 

Having said all that, it's possible that he is simply stabilizing his gut on the new season haylage, that he is better because the grass has finally stopped getting growth flushes, that he is beginning to trust after 12 weeks ridden that his back no longer hurts, that the alfalfa I started a month ago has stabilised him, or a combination of all of those things. 

If only we could separate one from the next we'd know, but some of those variables I have no influence over :-(


----------



## cptrayes (11 January 2014)

paddy555 said:



			I fed bicarb before equishure. It did help but did not make it to the hind gut. Equishure is an extremely expensive product that seems to do what it says on the tin for those horses that have that particular problem. Tesco oil and bicarb it ain't!
		
Click to expand...



Did you soak the bicarb in oil before you put it in the feed?  Equishure is bicarb bound in vegetable oil with an emulsifier to turn it solid.

I suspect that the additional cost is for the testing and then the marketing, not the ingredients.


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (11 January 2014)

Thanks, it's very interesting. Will check in again next week and see how he is, am loathe to chance changing anything before addington high profile next week but maybe after that I might do an Equisure versus CPT supp trial!


----------



## cptrayes (12 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Thanks, it's very interesting. Will check in again next week and see how he is, am loathe to chance changing anything before addington high profile next week but maybe after that I might do an Equisure versus CPT supp trial!
		
Click to expand...


Well that would be interesting. With results like yours with CS after the length of time it's taken to find out how to get his gut right, it's not a risk I'd ever be taking, especially since the Egusin you use now is so very different in composition.


----------



## Fuzzypuff (12 January 2014)

I've started mine on bicarb and corn oil now (he gets corn oil anyway), though I did notice he was improving the day I started it so it may be he is going to get better anyway. Will see how he goes!


----------



## cptrayes (12 January 2014)

Holey moley jeepers creepers.

I've done a ph acidity/alkalinity test on my haylage. I made some tea out of it and tested it. Our spring water, filtered, just about dead on neutral, 6.

The tea from the haylage 5 ish, bang on the middle of the normal 4.5 to 5.5 range for haylage. OK so far then.

Then I tipped off the tea and put more boiling water into the wet haylage. I could not believe my eyes. The meter shot down to just below four.  That is seriously acidic. Way, way more acid than malt vinegar

No wonder the poor boy has issues!! 

I am starting a trial of soaking it for 24 hours, draining it and then rinsing it again. If that does not stop him skipping about like he did for no apparent reason today, then I will buy hay.

My other horse is no different from normal. How different horses can be from each other!! It's astonishing how much one can be affected when the other does not give a damn.


----------



## cptrayes (12 January 2014)

Holey moley jeepers creepers.

I've done a ph acidity/alkalinity test on my haylage. I made some tea out of it and tested it. Our spring water, filtered, just about dead on neutral, 6.

The tea from the haylage 5 ish, bang on the middle of the normal 4.5 to 5.5 range for haylage. OK so far then.

Then I tipped off the tea and put more boiling water into the wet haylage. I could not believe my eyes. The meter shot down to just below four.  That is seriously acidic. Way, way more acid than malt vinegar

No wonder the poor boy has issues!! 

I am starting a trial of soaking it for 24 hours, draining it and then rinsing it again. If that does not stop him skipping about like he did for no apparent reason today, then I will buy hay.

My other horse is no different from normal. How different horses can be from each other!! It's astonishing how much one can be affected when the other does not give a damn.


----------



## paddy555 (12 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			My other horse is no different from normal. How different horses can be from each other!! It's astonishing how much one can be affected when the other does not give a damn.
		
Click to expand...

yes strange isn't it, still if you have found a possible reason that is great.

If you have to go down the hay route are you able to set up a bath soaking system to cut down on the work? ours really does make it easy peasy to do and it didn't cost much to set up.


----------



## cptrayes (12 January 2014)

paddy555 said:



			yes strange isn't it, still if you have found a possible reason that is great.

If you have to go down the hay route are you able to set up a bath soaking system to cut down on the work? ours really does make it easy peasy to do and it didn't cost much to set up.
		
Click to expand...

I'm soaking the haylage anyway, to get the acidity down.  I have one soaker, I soak haylage in summer to get the sugar down.  I've just bought another on eBay, so that I can have one batch soaking while another drains, to get it as dry as I can before I have to lift it. I'll bet the weather goes sub zero now!

We don't have mains water, and it takes a long time to fill by gravity, and judging by my tea experiments I need to drain it and then rinse it through again. What a palaver we go through for these horses!


----------



## paddy555 (12 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			We don't have mains water, and it takes a long time to fill by gravity, and judging by my tea experiments I need to drain it and then rinse it through again. What a palaver we go through for these horses!
		
Click to expand...

we had the same problem when we were still on a spring. Wasted time so we installed a "tank" (a plastic 45gall type container £10 from the recycling centre). Plumbed the water into it with  ball valve in it. That meant we always had a large quantity of water available to fill the soaker quickly and it could refill slowly by gravity in it's own time.


----------



## Yertis (12 January 2014)

I am a numpty at things like this but would adding bicarb to the soaking water reduce the acidity of the haylage so that you wouldn't have to rinse as well?


----------



## cptrayes (13 January 2014)

Yes, if the haylage absorbs it, but it's a 200 litre tub and it would take a lot. But I don't rule it out if the water that I am about to test has not increased in acidity overnight.  If the soaking water isn't more acidic, then the haylage won't be less acidic. Thank goodness for ph meters


----------



## cptrayes (13 January 2014)

paddy555 said:



			we had the same problem when we were still on a spring. Wasted time so we installed a "tank" (a plastic 45gall type container £10 from the recycling centre). Plumbed the water into it with  ball valve in it. That meant we always had a large quantity of water available to fill the soaker quickly and it could refill slowly by gravity in it's own time.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, if this becomes a permanent feature of life I will have to get my resident handyman to do that as well.


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (13 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Well that would be interesting. With results like yours with CS after the length of time it's taken to find out how to get his gut right, it's not a risk I'd ever be taking, especially since the Egusin you use now is so very different in composition.
		
Click to expand...

i will know within 24 hours if its a no go or a goer, he's very definate in what suits him and what doesnt lol, which makes it easier to sort stuff out i guess.


----------



## amandap (13 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I've done a ph acidity/alkalinity test on my haylage. I made some tea out of it and tested it. Our spring water, filtered, just about dead on neutral, 6.

The tea from the haylage 5 ish, bang on the middle of the normal 4.5 to 5.5 range for haylage. OK so far then.
		
Click to expand...

I so wish someone would invent a WSC or even better an NSC strip for home use!


----------



## cptrayes (13 January 2014)

Yes I'm lucky to have a resident geek with all the gear Amanda 

The liquor that came off this morning was down 0.7 in ph.  Given that it was in 150 litres of water as an absolute minimum, that is a very, very big amount of acid removed from the haylage. I am very hopeful that he will now settle right down.

Which would be a relief as I have over five hundred quids worth of haylage still to use.

Meanwhile, of course, I have now completely invalidated my mockushure trial, but having discovered a serious issue with the haylage, I couldn't simply ignore it.


----------



## paddy555 (13 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			l, but having discovered a serious issue with the haylage, I couldn't simply ignore it.
		
Click to expand...

hopefully you have got it in time. We think  a similar situation to this was the original problem of one of ours. As a youngster, about 8 - 15 months he was kept on his own  causing a lot of stress and anxiety. His only feed was grass which was poor and acidic. Sometimes cattle were put into his field. They would have been fed on poor quality big bale silage which he would obviously eat as well. I hate to think what the PH of that would have been.  We have had no end of problems with his gut and knocking on to his behaviour.


----------



## cptrayes (13 January 2014)

paddy555 said:



			hopefully you have got it in time. We think  a similar situation to this was the original problem of one of ours. As a youngster, about 8 - 15 months he was kept on his own  causing a lot of stress and anxiety. His only feed was grass which was poor and acidic. Sometimes cattle were put into his field. They would have been fed on poor quality big bale silage which he would obviously eat as well. I hate to think what the PH of that would have been.  We have had no end of problems with his gut and knocking on to his behaviour.
		
Click to expand...

This is interesting. I was pretty sure when I bought him that mine had already had a bout of laminitis. I am increasingly of the opinion that it causes lasting gut damage..


----------



## Fuzzypuff (13 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i will know within 24 hours if its a no go or a goer, he's very definate in what suits him and what doesnt lol, which makes it easier to sort stuff out i guess.
		
Click to expand...

Lucky you!

Although the problem I am finding is all the other factors - he has improved a little in this last week and I'm pretty sure that is down to the easing off of the rain. But of course this makes it difficult to tell if the bicarb is making any difference at all which is quite frustrating!


----------



## cptrayes (13 January 2014)

Fuzzypuff said:



			Lucky you!

Although the problem I am finding is all the other factors - he has improved a little in this last week and I'm pretty sure that is down to the easing off of the rain. But of course this makes it difficult to tell if the bicarb is making any difference at all which is quite frustrating!
		
Click to expand...

I also reckon it takes a month or so for the hind gut bacteria to stabilise to the new environment, before I can really judge what might be going on. Unfortunately, if a horse goes out and it's also sensitive to grass fluctuations, you haven't got a hope of working out what is what!


----------



## doriangrey (13 January 2014)

I've been reading with interest as my horses (and 2 goats) live on a diet of haylage in winter as I really cannot rely on a good source of hay.  I've never perceived a problem, but one is retired and another is a youngster so neither in work.  My retired mare is out on grass but she is supplemented with haylage.  Anyway, I'm also married to a geek  so I'm going to be testing my haylage tonight.  Our mains water is 6.95 so not bad (neutral is 7).  I'm also going to go out and buy a bale of hay from the local feed merchant tomorrow (ironically this was the best year for hay in Ireland for a long time) and I'll also test a bale of the barley straw I use for bedding.  And, just because it's soaking I'll test the beet pulp!  Just as an aside, I did read a report the other day on what forages a horse prefers, off the top of my head the horses were fed ad lib silage, haylage (two types one drier than the other) and hay.  The preference was silage then haylage (the wetter one) followed by the drier haylage and lastly the hay.  Hay was the only forage that was left.  Does this mean that horses don't know what is best for their hind gut health or is something else going on?  I'll try and find the report and post it.


----------



## doriangrey (13 January 2014)

http://www.caleya.es/equino/spa/wp-...rved-as-hay-haylage-or-silage-C.E.-Muller.pdf


----------



## cptrayes (13 January 2014)

doriangrey said:



			I've been reading with interest as my horses (and 2 goats) live on a diet of haylage in winter as I really cannot rely on a good source of hay.  I've never perceived a problem, but one is retired and another is a youngster so neither in work.  My retired mare is out on grass but she is supplemented with haylage.  Anyway, I'm also married to a geek  so I'm going to be testing my haylage tonight.  Our mains water is 6.95 so not bad (neutral is 7).  I'm also going to go out and buy a bale of hay from the local feed merchant tomorrow (ironically this was the best year for hay in Ireland for a long time) and I'll also test a bale of the barley straw I use for bedding.  And, just because it's soaking I'll test the beet pulp!  Just as an aside, I did read a report the other day on what forages a horse prefers, off the top of my head the horses were fed ad lib silage, haylage (two types one drier than the other) and hay.  The preference was silage then haylage (the wetter one) followed by the drier haylage and lastly the hay.  Hay was the only forage that was left.  Does this mean that horses don't know what is best for their hind gut health or is something else going on?  I'll try and find the report and post it.
		
Click to expand...

Ooh, DG how absolutely fascinating. You don't think of horses selecting what's bad for them, do you?  I have a suspicion that it may have to do with fermentation levels resulting in higher alcohol levels. As we know, humans will readily choose alcohol when it is bad for them. I have noticed with haylage that the more alcoholic the bale smells when I open it, the more keen they are to get their chops round it.

I'll go and read that report now and see if it debunks my theory.


----------



## doriangrey (13 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Ooh, DG how absolutely fascinating. You don't think of horses selecting what's bad for them, do you?  I have a suspicion that it may have to do with fermentation levels resulting in higher alcohol levels. As we know, humans will readily choose alcohol when it is bad for them. I have noticed with haylage that the more alcoholic the bale smells when I open it, the more keen they are to get their chops round it.

I'll go and read that report now and see if it debunks my theory.
		
Click to expand...

Funnily enough CPT, my last haylage bale that was delivered (I get one every 3 weeks or so at the moment) I think is a newer one (this year's cut) than the ones my supplier has delivered in the past few weeks.  It's a little bit damper and more stemmy (is that even a word?), it does smell a little more alcoholic.  The drier ones were soft and fragrant and smelled of pineapple (I'm a serial haylage bale sniffer!) and annoyingly drew wasps towards them in the warmer months.  I don't know whether it is the cut which is longer and coarser but the small pony and goats don't seem as fond of it.  Thoroughbred on the other hand is tucking in like mad, bless her :0  This is the one I'm testing as I would expect it to be more acidic and it's the one I have to hand!  I do wish I wouldn't keep reading that haylage contains more sugar than hay because its very method of preservation should generally make it lower in sugar!  I'm off to test my batch now - I'll post the result but I'll also test in the morning.  It's been soaking for 3 hours now.


----------



## doriangrey (13 January 2014)

So after soaking in warm water for 3 hours the reading is ph 6.76.


----------



## cptrayes (14 January 2014)

doriangrey said:



			So after soaking in warm water for 3 hours the reading is ph 6.76.
		
Click to expand...

Well you are definitely getting acid out then. Depending on how much water you used, possibly quite a lot.

Any scores on the others yet?


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (14 January 2014)

Fuzzypuff said:



			Lucky you!

Although the problem I am finding is all the other factors - he has improved a little in this last week and I'm pretty sure that is down to the easing off of the rain. But of course this makes it difficult to tell if the bicarb is making any difference at all which is quite frustrating!
		
Click to expand...

so keep going for a while longer and keep everything else the same?

we are SO careful with CS not to change too many things at once its helps keep things clear.


----------



## dianchi (14 January 2014)

Gosh another thread where OP gets rude at some posters suggestions and refuses to do it, then half way down the page changes to the suggestion given that they shouted down.

Oh then I saw who the OP was lol not surprised after all.


----------



## cptrayes (14 January 2014)

Mistaken post, comment from PS was not to me


----------



## cptrayes (14 January 2014)

dianchi said:



			Gosh another thread where OP gets rude at some posters suggestions and refuses to do it, then half way down the page changes to the suggestion given that they shouted down.

Oh then I saw who the OP was lol not surprised after all.
		
Click to expand...

Have you tested your twenty year old mare for Cushings yet Dianchi?

Oh sorry, I forgot, you don't want to do that because if she comes back positive you'll then have to give her medication that will interfere with your desire to compete her.

I completely accept your criticism, because you know all about shooting down the suggestions of others, both in PMs  to me and on threads 

I'd like to thank the people who challenged me sufficiently, and politely, enough to make me ph test my haylage and discover that I could deacidify it by soaking. I still won't be buying, storing, or feeding hay if I can avoid it.


----------



## Indy (14 January 2014)

I think she was replying to Fuzzypuff not you.


----------



## cptrayes (14 January 2014)

Indy said:



			I think she was replying to Fuzzypuff not you.
		
Click to expand...

Already corrected


----------



## Tiddlypom (14 January 2014)

doriangrey said:



			So after soaking in warm water for 3 hours the reading is ph 6.76.
		
Click to expand...

Might warm water encourage the haylage to ferment?

I have never used haylage, whether soaked or not. I do soak my hay however (in cold water), and in summer it soon heats up if accidentally left too long. In hot weather, I soak and drain it just before feeding, whereas in winter it can be left drained all day without heating up.

Just a thought.


----------



## doriangrey (14 January 2014)

Sorry everyone, my OH has informed me that the ph meter has to be recalibrated so I have to order buffering solution at 7.1ph and 4ph.  I'm still going to do the tests anyway but the results won't be available until the weekend.  It won't solve hind gut problems in horses, but I'll post the results for what it's worth.  I bought hay today to test anyway.


----------



## Tnavas (14 January 2014)

Tiddlypom said:



			Let's hope that you aren't accidentally poisoning him with this homemade concoction.
		
Click to expand...

Get a grip on reality dear -  how can some bicarb and oil poison him??!!!!

cptrayes - I take it that the bicarb level is around 33% of the mix and the rest oil. I am going to pass this on to a friend who has a really snakey horse - may be his problem. You need body arnour when you tack him up!


----------



## cptrayes (15 January 2014)

50g or 50ml (same thing) of bicarb and 100ml of oil, Tnavas. That's for a very big horse in each feed It approximately replicates the proportions of the two ingredients in the commercial product.


----------



## cptrayes (15 January 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Sorry everyone, my OH has informed me that the ph meter has to be recalibrated so I have to order buffering solution at 7.1ph and 4ph.  I'm still going to do the tests anyway but the results won't be available until the weekend.  It won't solve hind gut problems in horses, but I'll post the results for what it's worth.  I bought hay today to test anyway.
		
Click to expand...

You're showing off now . You've got a fancy one, ours isn't that clever!


----------



## doriangrey (15 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			You're showing off now . You've got a fancy one, ours isn't that clever!
		
Click to expand...

I was a bit suspicious of the results, so I stuck it in some vinegar which at 5% acid should have read between 2 - 3.4 ph.  When the reading stuck at 6.5 I thought I'd better read the instructions 

This is not relevant, but as I was trying to google if I could calibrate it with a home made solution (not really possible) I came across an interesting 'herbal' site.  And if anyone here is old enough to remember Bill and Ben and their little 'friend' in the garden, they'll know what I mean!


----------



## Tiddlypom (15 January 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Get a grip on reality dear -  how can some bicarb and oil poison him????!!!
		
Click to expand...

 No need to be patronising.

You need to watch out for the law of unintended consequences. OP is feeding a product which she readily admits may not be suitable for the horse. She then adds x and y to counteract the effects of the unsuitable product, and may then also inadvertently be affecting unknown factors w and z.

I really will bow out from this thread now. Carry on.


----------



## cptrayes (15 January 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Get a grip on reality dear -  how can some bicarb and oil poison him??!!!!

cptrayes - I take it that the bicarb level is around 33% of the mix and the rest oil. I am going to pass this on to a friend who has a really snakey horse - may be his problem. You need body arnour when you tack him up! 

Click to expand...




Tiddlypom said:



			No need to be patronising.

You need to watch out for the law of unintended consequences. OP is feeding a product which she readily admits may not be suitable for the horse. She then adds x and y to counteract the effects of the unsuitable product, and may then also inadvertently be affecting unknown factors w and z.

I really will bow out from this thread now. Carry on.
		
Click to expand...


Oh honestly  !

OP is feeding nothing that is not being fed by hundreds of people all over the world. By your logic it would be dangerous to feed any supplementary food at all


----------



## Fuzzypuff (15 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			so keep going for a while longer and keep everything else the same?

we are SO careful with CS not to change too many things at once its helps keep things clear.
		
Click to expand...

I am very careful too, my point was just that sometimes there are factors I can't control, and with a very sensitive horse sometimes it is difficult to even work out what the thing is that has changed. 

Additionally he is super fussy and will sometimes just stop eating his feeds even though nothing has changed and then I have to strip them right back and add everything in one by one - so then again that messes up any trials of supplements I have on at the time! 

Like you say it is time, but you are very lucky if you can tell in 24 hours if something is working, as for me it is weeks or months to know for sure!


----------



## cptrayes (15 January 2014)

A friend of mine went on a colic seminar in the US the other day where they said that it takes 14 days for the hind gut flora to stabilize after a feed change. I'm not going to judge anything more until I've been soaking haylage for two weeks, and then the new boy will have been here more than a week too, so that change will also be out of the way.

I might ride him tomorrow if he seems really calm.


----------



## amandap (15 January 2014)

doriangrey said:



			And if anyone here is old enough to remember Bill and Ben and their little 'friend' in the garden, they'll know what I mean!
		
Click to expand...

Puts hand up!


----------



## paddy555 (15 January 2014)

amandap said:



			Puts hand up! 

Click to expand...

Amanda,you must be as old as I am!!!!!  Do you remember Andy Pandy (on Tuesdays) Rag, Tag and Bobtail (on Thursdays) and then the Woodentops (on a Friday)


----------



## cptrayes (15 January 2014)

paddy555 said:



			Amanda,you must be as old as I am!!!!!  Do you remember Andy Pandy (on Tuesdays) Rag, Tag and Bobtail (on Thursdays) and then the Woodentops (on a Friday)
		
Click to expand...


What about tales of the riverbank????

And does anyone else know the Pingwings, it only showed in the south east region.


----------



## amandap (15 January 2014)

paddy555 said:



			Amanda,you must be as old as I am!!!!!  Do you remember Andy Pandy (on Tuesdays) Rag, Tag and Bobtail (on Thursdays) and then the Woodentops (on a Friday)
		
Click to expand...

Yep and Tales of the River bank. I couldn't possibly remember what days they were on though! lol I already knew I was as old as you and CPT!


----------



## Tnavas (15 January 2014)

paddy555 said:



			Amanda,you must be as old as I am!!!!!  Do you remember Andy Pandy (on Tuesdays) Rag, Tag and Bobtail (on Thursdays) and then the Woodentops (on a Friday)
		
Click to expand...

OMG there are people as old as me

I think they aired at 1:45 weekdays and there was 'Listen with Mother' on the radio every week day too

Monday - Picture Book
Tuesday - Andy Pandy
Wednesday Bill and Ben
Thursday - Rag, Tag and Bobtail
Friday - The Wooden Tops - I do a mean impression of Spotty Dog complete with lateral leg moves!

Tales of the Riverbank were a few years later and I think aired at 5:45pm for 15 mins before the News. Do you also remember The Magic Roundabout?


----------



## cptrayes (15 January 2014)

Dylan the druggie? Who could forget him?!?!

Hectors House?  Surreal!!!!!


----------



## Tnavas (15 January 2014)

I had a horse called Zebedee as he would go Boing!!! and the rider would depart.


----------



## Mrs B (15 January 2014)

Had to post - reading this thread with interest but nothing to add except: (and do forgive me, silly old Hector that I am), I still believe Andy Pandy was actually a girl and did anyone speak Clanger other than Oliver Postgate and my Dad?



As you were ...


----------



## cptrayes (15 January 2014)

I nearly  cried when Oliver postgate died. I just love his voice. 

Idris the fire Dragon, noggin the nog, need I say more????


----------



## Mrs B (15 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I nearly  cried when Oliver postgate died. I just love his voice.
		
Click to expand...

So did I. The voice of comfort, safety and reason. (For me, the phrase 'And Emily ... loved him' is enough to bring him back).


----------



## doriangrey (15 January 2014)

Pogles Wood - a glass of Chateauneuf du Pap for anyone who remembers that with Pippin and Togg (and the booze-quaffing plant in the garden).   Sniff .. such memories.


----------



## khalswitz (17 January 2014)

Haven't read all the replies, but my lad gets seasonal tummy upset, mainly when the good grass comes through. He has EPSM anyway, so is on a low sugar/starch/high oil diet, and gets a cheap as chips digestive supplement - the Norvite own brand one, contains live yea sacc cultures and some herbs and things. I increase the dose when he gets angsty, and keep on a maintenance dose. I also try to have him in during the late morning to afternoon when the sugar in the grass is at it's highest levels, so as to not upset his tum.


----------



## dalidaydream (17 January 2014)

Mrs B said:



			did anyone speak Clanger other than Oliver Postgate and my Dad?
		
Click to expand...

Yes me - I can still understand them 



doriangrey said:



			Pogles Wood - a glass of Chateauneuf du Pap for anyone who remembers that with Pippin and Togg (and the booze-quaffing plant in the garden).   Sniff .. such memories.
		
Click to expand...

Oh yes, I loved Pogles Wood 

OP - following this thread with interest


----------



## cptrayes (26 January 2014)

Belated update, unavoidably detained 

I have my beautiful, gentle, trainable warmblood back again. I am so happy.

The big effect, I am pretty sure, is from soaking the acid out of the haylage. The mock equishure is definitely making his droppings both softer and bigger though, which is a very healthy sign I think.

50g per feed is to much, I think, and I have dropped it to 25g and I will be keeping him on it. He also gets 50g brewers yeast, 30g magnesium and 10g copper (because of my high iron/manganese levels) in feeds of soaked alfalfa pellets.

I put the bicarb in a pot with a lid, add 100 ml of oil, shake, and hey presto it's done.

This horse is the most honest creature I have ever known. If he will not work, there is always a physical reason for it. My challenge as his owner has been to find the reasons and sort them out. I hope for both our sakes I've got to the bottom of all of them now!


----------



## Ellibelli (26 January 2014)

Hi Cptrayes. Thanks for the update. I've been watching this thread with great interest. My horse has been on Equishure for about 3 weeks now and I have noticed a huge improvement - but very open to ideas for saving some cash! Would you mind just going over your ingredients, mixing process and volumes in each feed again please? Many thanks


----------



## cptrayes (26 January 2014)

Ellibelli said:



			Hi Cptrayes. Thanks for the update. I've been watching this thread with great interest. My horse has been on Equishure for about 3 weeks now and I have noticed a huge improvement - but very open to ideas for saving some cash! Would you mind just going over your ingredients, mixing process and volumes in each feed again please? Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

No problem 

I bought 100% bicarbonate of soda, NaHCO3, food grade, from a reputable eBay supplier.

I have already used Tesco rapeseed oil, sold as vegetable oil at one pound a litre, with another horse to provide bulk free  calories for several years now.

I put 100ml of the oil into an old 500g sudocrem pot. I add 25ml, which happens also to be 25 grams, of the bicarb.

I put the lid on and shake it, and the oil soaks into every tiny grain of the bicarb.

Pour it into damp alfalfa, stir,  and there you have it.  I know that it is reaching the hind gut, because if I feed too much of it, his droppings get too wet.

I do that for two feeds, morning and evening. He is a 17 hand horse who weighs around  630kg


----------



## Ellibelli (26 January 2014)

Thank you


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 February 2014)

just as a quick CS update-he wont eat the bicarb, at all, not even mixed in to his yummy slobbermash so ive got some equishure and he starts that tonight.

fussy devil!


----------



## Fuzzypuff (18 February 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			just as a quick CS update-he wont eat the bicarb, at all, not even mixed in to his yummy slobbermash so ive got some equishure and he starts that tonight.

fussy devil!
		
Click to expand...

I found the same with bicarb, even with one small scoop between 3 decent sized feeds! Equishure goes down well though


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (19 February 2014)

how is george on it?

he seemed to eat it up ok last night and this AM so fingers crossed. 

not riding tonight but will ride tomorrow before work and should have an idea if its working by then i hope as i usually know one way or the other within 2/3 days!!!!


----------



## chocolategirl (20 February 2014)

Hi I have had this problem for last 18 months with daughters pony. I have tried naf haylage balancer, thrive, brewers yeast, aloe vera juicend pink powder, none of which made a blind bit of difference! I now am feeding him hi fibre cubes with the haylage balancer and the pink powder and hey presto, we have a clean bottom for the first time in 18 months!! May not work for all, but it seems to have worked for ours and the cubes aren't even that expensive &#55357;&#56842;


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 February 2014)

update:

definately seems happier on the equishure so now reducing the egusin down gradually.


----------



## Primitive Pony (17 October 2014)

I know this is an old thread but just wanted to say thanks for the recipe! - do you still find the homemade Equishure effective?


----------



## cptrayes (18 October 2014)

Yes I did, it sorted him out with the hind gut issues, along with taking people's advice to feed him hay not haylage.

Unfortunately he gave himself two head fractures and was put down, but I was able to ride him happily for a very short time before the first fracture.  I think it works.


----------



## Primitive Pony (18 October 2014)

I'm so sorry to hear about your horse....

But thank you, I'll keep going with the paste!


----------

