# Buy it or train it?



## Bernster (18 January 2018)

Whiling away the time before a work call.  Would love to hear your stories and views on whether you've bought a made horse, or whether you ended up training and producing it yourself.  Is this really achievable for a wobbly amateur rider?

I'm loving the journey with my boy, but I do have the occasional day dream about what life would be like if I had bought that established schoolmaster I meant to buy.  Instead I bought a just turned 5yo gangly thing who didn't know where his legs were, who tripped over poles, couldn't turn right and who, first time I ventured out, launched off the lorry, knocked me over and trod on my ankle!  

...Actually, that's making me feel better about how far we've come as really that was the worst of it!  Sine then he's been a poppet to ride, despite my occasionally jangly jumping nerves.

I comfort myself with the thought that if I ever get to that dreamed of BE80, it's through a lot of my own sweat and tears.  And those perfect schoolmasters often turn into hairy nightmares once they're in amateur hands!


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## ihatework (18 January 2018)

I&#8217;ve had both, and they have been rewarding in different ways.
What I would say though is I&#8217;ve just gone onto a youngster having had a 3 year stint on a tricky but good schoolmistress and what I have taken from her and applied to this young horse is massive. I feel my understanding of where I want to go and what I need to achieve with the training is completely different to my previous youngsters.


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## milliepops (18 January 2018)

Only ever trained my own 

Like IHW though, each new one has been better than the last because of what I've learned from the more advanced ones.  I would love to have been able to go out and get a horse that was ready to go this time round but realistically funds just don't allow... with a sub £1k budget the market is very limited.

It's one of the reasons I like having more than one on the go.  The more established horse provides the carefree fun, and the one that is coming up behind needs a bit more gritting of teeth and working to improve day by day.

While I had Millie in work, she was so reliable and fun, she loved her work, she was just nice to ride - I know her inside out and I'd made my own schoolmistress up to Novice BE and Medium dressage.  Then along came Kira and she had to start from the beginning with all the difficulties that a screwed up horse brings. If that was all I had to ride, I'd have been a bit miserable since it was a lot of hard work and mentally quite challenging.

Now Kira's the schooled horse - she's just getting better and better but the other day I thought to myself that I haven't ever had such a nicely trained horse to ride   So proud of her and how she's adapted to her new life with me.
Salty is the baby... a bit screwed up and needing unpicking, and again, I'd be a bit fed up if she was my only ride.

So for me I think I've found the right way. I know I can't afford a nice horse, I have to make it... and I always need to have an eye to training a spare!  
And there is *nothing* like looking at your lovely horse and knowing you taught it all yourself


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## HeyMich (18 January 2018)

A subject very much on my mind at the moment!

I bought a gorgeous, but very green, mare on a bit of a whim last year, thinking that the learning journey together would be wonderful. I'm doubting that theory just now! 

The problem is that I occasionally ride my YO's beautifully trained warmblood, and the difference between the two is like night and day. I feel my riding would improve no end if I had more time on the YO's horse, and that my mare would improve much quicker with a more confident/experienced rider. 

Need to keep in mind how much my horse has come on so far... and that these improvements don't miraculously happen overnight!


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## tatty_v (18 January 2018)

I ended up in the middle - bought a 12 year old Connie X who is solid as a rock generally speaking but hadn't really done any refined training.  As a first time horse owner I've brought him on from not being able to turn a circle in the school to competing at novice level dressage, I've steadied his jumping (for which he has a natural talent) and taught him to be more technical, I've taught him to load without being a twerp etc.  I'm hugely proud of him and how far he's come - he's barely recognisable from the yellow belly on legs that arrived three years ago! What has made it easier is him being that bit older and more confident about most situations, plus he has a real desire to learn and do well.  I lucked out really!

P.S We have just cracked medium trot thanks to your CDJ lesson video you posted in Millie's retrospective Milliepops!  I'd spent so long trying to collect before asking, but he just didn't understand.  We tried the road runner approach, launched into medium halfway round the school, penny dropped and now I have to stop him doing it all the time!


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## milliepops (18 January 2018)

Bernster said:



			Is this really achievable for a wobbly amateur rider?
		
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as for this bit ^^ yes it definitely IS... but no one should underestimate how difficult it can be.  It's really hard training your first horse, especially. It gets easier with practice but I'd say most amateurs don't get to spend enough time on it to be able to lose the feeling of being a bit in over your head now and then  

I remember starting Millie jumping, I'd ridden a lot of young horses but none quite as wobbly as her. I had to build fences against the school wall and could only get over the jump on one rein  she fell out on the left rein (so would scrabble over a jump) but fell in on the right rein (so would run past it!)  
I had a jumping lesson where I was told to just gallop at the fences because then she would be going so fast she couldn't run out  :eek3: needless to say we didn't go to THAT trainer again. A lot of blood, sweat and tears later, she was a super xc horse who locked onto fences and loved the job. 

The other thing that is difficult for an amateur is having the time available. We're all juggling various things and to really progress at a pace  I think horses need a lot of input.  I've got a single track mind, I do my horses as my TOP priority - work and personal life has to fit in around them but not everyone can or would want to do that. 
 Kira feels like she's trained on SOOO fast as a result. but if she was in pro hands she's about on target - she'll be 4 years into training by the time she comes out at PSG.  Sobering.


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## milliepops (18 January 2018)

tatty_v said:



			P.S We have just cracked medium trot thanks to your CDJ lesson video you posted in Millie's retrospective Milliepops!  I'd spent so long trying to collect before asking, but he just didn't understand.  We tried the road runner approach, launched into medium halfway round the school, penny dropped and now I have to stop him doing it all the time! 

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haha!  Pleased it helped someone    def sometimes helps to take a different approach sometimes doesn't it? the textbook doesn't always work and now he's got the concept I bet you can go back to the "book way" and he will know what you want


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## tatty_v (18 January 2018)

milliepops said:



			haha!  Pleased it helped someone    def sometimes helps to take a different approach sometimes doesn't it? the textbook doesn't always work and now he's got the concept I bet you can go back to the "book way" and he will know what you want 

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Totally.  I sensed he didn't understand what I was asking, but as a novice myself I stuck to the "10m circle just before the marker, across the long diagonal, steady and straight then ask" route - he just didn't understand and didn't have the space to have a go.  Now the penny's dropped we can refine it and get it when I ask, which is awesome, so thank you!  It's a great feeling when you crack something like that as a team, young or old!


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## Michen (18 January 2018)

Personally find it immensely rewarding to train. Basil had done no competing when I got him and getting him flying around BE90's within a matter of months was just awesome.

That said, Boggle has been a sodding nightmare and the only way I've managed to get through it is having the finances to be able to pay someone to help. I reckon I'm going to spend well over £2000 in help with riding/competing from a rider by the time I permanently take back the reins. But it's still incredibly rewarding especially given the state he arrived in. 

Not sure I'd ever buy a ready made horse now, rather buy a youngster and employ a pro alongside if required.


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## HufflyPuffly (18 January 2018)

At the moment I'm the same as MP, couldn't afford to buy a schoolmaster/ one bred for it, but also immensely enjoy the training .

It does take work though, as in set amount of riding in all weathers, lessons and general bloody mindedness to do it .

Topaz was my first so has taken a little longer, 5 years to training the advanced work, I'm hoping Skylla will come through quicker as I'm not fixing her but just training her .

Also find MP's vids super helpful, and wish more people would put them up of 'normal' horses and how to help their issues, as its so much more helpful!


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## Embo (18 January 2018)

Bernster said:



			Is this really achievable for a wobbly amateur rider?
		
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Yes! It might take some time, but it's definitely possible. When I bought B, my confidence was at an all time low. He was a green 5yo but was just what I needed to get my mojo back, very happily just plodding about with me but teaching me a thing or two along the way.

As my confidence improved, I became more determined and ambitious. I did have some help along the way, not done it all totally by myself. We did our first flying change the other week, but that was all me (I've not tried it again yet just in case it was a fluke  ). I was over the moon, so proud that I had managed to teach a flying change when not that long ago I could barely get correct canter leads! It's taken me almost 4 years to get to this point, but 2 of those years were spent getting over some major issues - so this is in no way a benchmark


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## Embo (18 January 2018)

AlexHyde said:



			...Also find MP's vids super helpful, and wish more people would put them up of 'normal' horses and how to help their issues, as its so much more helpful!
		
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So agree with this! More vids, please, MP


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## HufflyPuffly (18 January 2018)

Embo said:



			So agree with this! More vids, please, MP 

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:lol: come on MP!


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## milliepops (18 January 2018)

AlexHyde said:



			:lol: come on MP! 

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haha!  I'm a bit limited because I'm almost always going places on my own  Have got a few clips of Kira and I cocking up tempis at Adam's yesterday courtesy of Jiffy, but unfortunately none of her good work on the piris or half steps, boo!


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## Leo Walker (18 January 2018)

Train it! I'm another one in the sub 1k bracket so you take what you can get. Its always been youngsters previously, but this time I ended up with an older horse who was established as a driving pony, but only the equivalent of happy hacking, and now we are learning about driving trials together. With driving its almost easier to do it this way as you build the relationship from the ground up. Taking over some one elses established horse would involved a bit of going backwards before you progressed. I have been very lucky and driven a couple of international trails horses and can honestly say I prefer my own to them :biggrin3:


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## HufflyPuffly (18 January 2018)

milliepops said:



			haha!  I'm a bit limited because I'm almost always going places on my own  Have got a few clips of Kira and I cocking up tempis at Adam's yesterday courtesy of Jiffy, but unfortunately none of her good work on the piris or half steps, boo!
		
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Cocked up tempi's are so relevant for me right now  just saying :lol:....


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## milliepops (18 January 2018)

AlexHyde said:



			Cocked up tempi's are so relevant for me right now  just saying :lol:....
		
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lol  be back later with something for you to giggle at later then


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## HufflyPuffly (18 January 2018)

milliepops said:



			lol  be back later with something for you to giggle at later then 

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Not saying peer pressure works but :rolleyes3: :lol:...


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## Bernster (18 January 2018)

Ok I'm gonna stalk MP for her vids now.

I feel a smidge better about my glacial progress with F hah.  And fortunately, on the odd occasion when I do look through sale websites, that unicorn event schoolmaster doesn't appear!  Phew.


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## DabDab (18 January 2018)

I'm definitely in the train it camp too, and again that has rather been the necessity for me, partly because of low budget to buy and partly because when I was young and from a non horsey family (so desperate for rides on anything) and nerves of steel I very quickly got pigeonholed as one of those riders who did the retraining and backing/schooling of youngsters, so that was pretty much all I knew.

I did have a few competition horses that I got to a reasonable standard competing (medium dressage, newcomers showjumping and scrambling around novice BE), but I always had to sell them to pay the bills. And then when I met my now 8 (rising 9)yo when he was 3 and fell head over heels for him I decided that there would be no more selling, this time I would have horses just for me. That horse has had a number of issues so his schooling is actually about 2-3 years behind where a 'normal' horse's should be. In some ways that can be frustrating, but in others it is quite nice as I have a sensible 9yo to hack, handle and take places, meaning that I really only have to put effort into the schooling side. With the average 4/5/6yo you are juggling so many different training objectives at once so it can get mighty tiring.

Having said that, my two youngsters (rising 4 and rising 3)are very straightforward to handle and manage so that does make life easier too.


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## Jenni_ (18 January 2018)

I bought an 'established horse' - which after riding for over 20 years I (and the dealer!) thought I'd be grand with. She is the sweetest, most generous mare who is out to please but very, very sensitive. Although my riding wasn't terrible, it was my confidence that lacked in the partnership.

We had a few setbacks in the past year due to those confidence issues, and went into a downward spiral. We ended up not able to hack, I had broken bones, she would get upset every time I went to get on because we were both so wary of each other. We couldn't even walk round the fields at home without her having a meltdown and me ending up in a mess. Because of the reduced riding, her fitness / schooling level went a bit backwards so I've actually ended up with a 'green-ish' horse after all. 

It's taken time, loads of support, and a complete attitude over haul from me... but we're on the road in the right direction. I think she's  never felt truly happy in the new saddle I bought and had fitted when she first arrived, so I've even bought a second saddle. YO even commented on how 'happy' she's looking recently. 

I *think* we're getting there....


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## scats (18 January 2018)

Ive bought one established, albeit she had issues, but knew her job.

The rest have either been young, unbroken, just broken or done nothing much apart from hack.
I enjoy training them, particularly taking 'nothing' horses (in the sense of no known breeding, no particular talents or any major presence) and turning them into something that no-one quite expected.


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## LeannePip (18 January 2018)

Train It!

Its funny this has come up today as i've been having a very reflective day looking at baby pictures of Ruby!

I've never had 'made' or even vaguely produced horses.  My first horse was a yearling, naive to the fact that producing horses is much harder than hop on and off you go   It turned out well though, with a lot of help along the way, I trained her to Novice dr, and jumped to 1m quite successfully but she didn't have the temperament or 'will' to do anything else and she's sold to a lovely hunting home.

When looking for my next horse I did have a bit more of a budget but not really enough for something good, the options were 1) out competing to a good level with quirks/ issues/ ailments/ older horse or 2) raw youngster.  I knew I really didn't have the expertise to undo the problems some horses had even though it was appealing to have a horse that was already established so we had to start again from the bottom with the barely backed. . .

It is a slog, for the longest time you feel like you aren't getting anywhere but my biggest advice is surround yourself with people who want to help, listen to everything and commit to doing it well.  You can't produce a well rounded horse halfheartedly, if you put the passion and enthusiasm in you will get it back 10 fold - it is possible as a 1 horse amateur!  Like MP, my horse & training is my top priority, above work/ social/ sleep/ family - every spare penny is spent on lessons and I have very clear visions of what I want to achieve.  I appreciate its not always just that simple for everyone but for now I don't have any dependents so making the most of it now  

There are a lot of people on my yard with young horses and most of them say 'oh I wish XX, was as easy/ good/ far along (delete as appropriate blah blah blah) as Ruby is, you are so lucky' but these are the same people that don't ride in the rain, pick-up and put horses down depending on their social life, aren't consistent in their training etc - they don't see that I ride in all weathers, lunge in my PJ's at 5am before work, ride in the evening long after everyone has gone home, don't waste money in town drinking/ smoking and if my instructor can only fit me in at 7.30pm on a Friday, guess who's riding at 7.30pm!!  This isn't me saying i'm better/ superior/ right in my way of doing things, but its definitely a case of you get out what you put in and don't make excuses!

This is my Instagram/ Facebook throwback Thursday contribution for today - It's great looking back and thinking 'wow, i managed to do that myself!'
top: Baby 4yo on the lunge
bottom: 6yo first Elementary


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## milliepops (18 January 2018)

LeannePip said:



			It is a slog, for the longest time you feel like you aren't getting anywhere
		
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ain't that the truth. was just thinking that this morning. Feels like groundhog day sometimes, going over and over the same things, then all of a sudden - whoosh... you've made another big leap. Have to remind myself to just do one more repetition, one more day, cos maybe that's the one that gets you over the hump.  (Salty is learning to leg yield... SLOWLY! )


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## Bernster (18 January 2018)

That's lovely LP, what fab progress.  Def a testament to all your hard work.

Jenni - interesting to read your post.  Didn't you do a review not so long ago, I remember thinking what amazing fun you'd had and how well you'd done.  I don't think I appreciated how many bumps you'd had along the way.  So good to read that you're in a better place now.

I can't say I've done the 5.30am lunging (have got up earlier than that for hunting but that's different!), and I am a bit of a fair weather rider at times, but I do attack my training with gusto.  I have weekly lessons, do loads of clinics etc., and have a ton of fantastic support.  No kids, which helps, but do need to get some balance at times to keep the OH happy!

So, for me, it's more of a middle ground, and that explains the slower progress, but I am terrible for knocking myself.  My ins commented the other day about how hard I've worked and how well me and F have done, so I should celebrate that a bit more too.


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## LeannePip (18 January 2018)

Bernster said:



			That's lovely LP, what fab progress.  Def a testament to all your hard work.

Jenni - interesting to read your post.  Didn't you do a review not so long ago, I remember thinking what amazing fun you'd had and how well you'd done.  I don't think I appreciated how many bumps you'd had along the way.  So good to read that you're in a better place now.

I can't say I've done the 5.30am lunging (have got up earlier than that for hunting but that's different!), and I am a bit of a fair weather rider at times, but I do attack my training with gusto.  I have weekly lessons, do loads of clinics etc., and have a ton of fantastic support.  No kids, which helps, but do need to get some balance at times to keep the OH happy!

So, for me, it's more of a middle ground, and that explains the slower progress, but I am terrible for knocking myself.  My ins commented the other day about how hard I've worked and how well me and F have done, so I should celebrate that a bit more too.
		
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The best thing about this place is (I think) the weekend plans thread, everyone is so honest about when it goes right and when it goes wrong - everyone has ups and downs and its never a straight line to your goal and its worth keeping that in mind when everything feels like its falling down around you.

If you haven't heard of her check out Olivia Towers on FB she does loads of vlogs and is really open about the ups and downs of training and speaks a lot about mindset.  I'm trying this whole mindset positive attitude=positive results thing and the difference is starting to show.  I do have a wobble now and again but I dont look at bad days as failures now just more pieces of a puzzle to work out and as a result don't acctually feel like we have 'bad days' now  

Try not to compare your progress to others too, use it for inspiration if you want, but as with everything in life we have to tread our own way and there is no timescale on it, enjoy the training side rather than think, 'i'll enjoy it when we get to XX level' and be in a rush to get there.



milliepops said:



			ain't that the truth. was just thinking that this morning. Feels like groundhog day sometimes, going over and over the same things, then all of a sudden - whoosh... you've made another big leap. Have to remind myself to just do one more repetition, one more day, cos maybe that's the one that gets you over the hump.  (Salty is learning to leg yield... SLOWLY! )
		
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I hear ya!   The hissy fits we had over a simple leg yield would rival a preschool of toddlers at nap time!


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## Bernster (18 January 2018)

Wise words LP !  Thank you.  Food for thought.

Part of my 'attacking training plan' now includes some sports coaching.  Working on my mindset which I think, of all the things I do, needs the most work and has had the least attention.  Am really hoping it can help me get over some of the mental blocks I have.


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## JFTDWS (18 January 2018)

I've only ever made my own, too.  My first pony, when I was 12, was my chunky, hairy cob (before they were fashionable!), who was kicked out of the RS for bad behaviour, and spent the first 6 months breaking the arena fencing and tanking me into hedges - I was told to man up and learn to ride it, or he'd have to be sold.  I went for the former and was lucky enough to get away with it.  

Since then, "my" horses have been Fergus - a once-sat-on-for-a-photo-rider-instantly-deposited-on-ground, 3 year old, Daemon who was a yearling, and Skye who had been backed and ridden for a couple of months when I got her, so comparatively well educated!

I like training, I like improving a horse and I prefer chipping away at stuff at home, by myself, to competing really.  Thus I don't really want a schoolmaster, although it's always useful to have a home made, reliable one to loan to people / pony out from and have fun on.


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## milliepops (18 January 2018)

LeannePip said:



			I hear ya!   The hissy fits we had over a simple leg yield would rival a preschool of toddlers at nap time!  

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Shoulder in is a doddle but LY...NOPE!   Maybe it's me... Kira was the same 

Def look out for Olivia Towers on FB, I started following her after having a lesson last year... I can't bring myself to watch all her vlogs but the little snippets she posts like Wednesday Wisdom or whatever it's called really do ring true, if you can get over the schmaltz  

The other thing about setbacks is that usually you can find a positive somewhere, but it might take a day or 2 before you can think clearly rather than be emotional. If I have a rubbish show, there's usually something even if it's like - tricky horse loaded and travelled well... that's still a win!  Might also be 'i rode the test really well even if the horse was off her game today' or 'i didn't allow myself to get distracted in the warm up'  etc.


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## daffy44 (18 January 2018)

I am totally in the train it camp, only ever had unbroken, young or demented due to budget restrictions.

I grew up in London with non horsey parents, so rode friends ponies etc, then worked at a dealing yard, backing, producing and grooming show jumpers.  I've bought my own horses as failures or foals and produced them myself, yes, its possible for a wobbly amateur to do it, but I often think they fail on two counts; one, they underestimate the work that needs to be done, and two, they dont stick at it enough, MP is right it has to be the main priority, and you have to be out there every day, not just on the good days.  Please dont get me wrong, I know this doesnt apply to everyone, but when people fail it usually comes done to those two reasons.

There is nothing like the satisfaction of producing your horse yourself, and being able to look back and see how far you have come together, its worth everything.


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## LeannePip (18 January 2018)

milliepops said:



			Shoulder in is a doddle but LY...NOPE!   Maybe it's me... Kira was the same 

Def look out for Olivia Towers on FB, I started following her after having a lesson last year... I can't bring myself to watch all her vlogs but the little snippets she posts like Wednesday Wisdom or whatever it's called really do ring true, if you can get over the schmaltz  

The other thing about setbacks is that usually you can find a positive somewhere, but it might take a day or 2 before you can think clearly rather than be emotional. If I have a rubbish show, there's usually something even if it's like - tricky horse loaded and travelled well... that's still a win!  Might also be 'i rode the test really well even if the horse was off her game today' or 'i didn't allow myself to get distracted in the warm up'  etc.
		
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  yep same - SI accepted on first attempt, LY whoooooolllee other kettle of fish - but the positive to come out of that is we found out deep down there is a very good piri canter waiting to make an appearance!

Agreed - I tend to watch the vlogs at the end of the day, lying in bed waiting to be taken by sleep  but it does make sense and has given me a few good things to mull over!

How was your lesson with her?  It's a MEGA drive for me but i keep considering the camps that she runs


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## milliepops (18 January 2018)

She came to our yard as one of the other girls wanted a lesson so organised a clinic.
I thought I better stop being a party pooper and join in (I don't join the Phoebe Buckley clinics that someone else runs )

I rode Millie, because she was coming back to work at that time and I didn't want to disrupt what I was doing with Kira - Adam gets her little brain so well.

Anyway, I said to her that I needed resetting because I had spent so long rehabbing Millie that I'd forgotten how to ride her properly  I  needed someone to get me riding her at AM level rather than riding AM exercises at Novice level if you see what I mean?
 She was good - critical but encouraging, chatty but not overly so, definitely gave me lots of good pointers and a general kick up the bum which is what I needed at the time.

A friend had a lesson on her pony which was kind of wobbly prelim level at the time - she was good with her too, identified the main problem and gave some exercises to work on that.

The horse belonging to the girl who organised the clinic is a wily old "schoolmaster" gone rogue - owner was struggling so Olivia got on it and helped get him a bit more on side. 

I'd have another one, still maybe not with Kira but def with Salty.

Are you in the Olivia Towers on tour group on FB (called something like that anyway)? She's organising clinics in other areas which might be better?


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## LeannePip (18 January 2018)

milliepops said:



			She came to our yard as one of the other girls wanted a lesson so organised a clinic.
I thought I better stop being a party pooper and join in (I don't join the Phoebe Buckley clinics that someone else runs )

I rode Millie, because she was coming back to work at that time and I didn't want to disrupt what I was doing with Kira - Adam gets her little brain so well.

Anyway, I said to her that I needed resetting because I had spent so long rehabbing Millie that I'd forgotten how to ride her properly  I  needed someone to get me riding her at AM level rather than riding AM exercises at Novice level if you see what I mean?
 She was good - critical but encouraging, chatty but not overly so, definitely gave me lots of good pointers and a general kick up the bum which is what I needed at the time.

A friend had a lesson on her pony which was kind of wobbly prelim level at the time - she was good with her too, identified the main problem and gave some exercises to work on that.

The horse belonging to the girl who organised the clinic is a wily old "schoolmaster" gone rogue - owner was struggling so Olivia got on it and helped get him a bit more on side. 

I'd have another one, still maybe not with Kira but def with Salty.

Are you in the Olivia Towers on tour group on FB (called something like that anyway)? She's organising clinics in other areas which might be better?
		
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Oh sounds good!  yes am in the 'tour' group but still nothing has come within reasonable distance for an 'un known' lesson.

There are a few people harassing for Hampshire dates so i'll leave it to them, sounds like it might be beneficial even for just another set of eyes on the ground


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## Auslander (18 January 2018)

I've always been in the "train it" camp, but after losing Aus, who I had from a huge gangly unbroken baby, and who was just starting all the "P"s when he died, I lost my mojo completely, and didn't ride for years. I then decided I wanted to ride again, but just for fun, so advertised for an older advanced horse to play around with - and along came Alf. He and I have similar views on life - we just want to hack about, and occasionally go in the school, run through the twiddly bits, then collapse in a heap.


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## Jenni_ (18 January 2018)

Bernster said:



			Jenni - interesting to read your post.  Didn't you do a review not so long ago, I remember thinking what amazing fun you'd had and how well you'd done.  I don't think I appreciated how many bumps you'd had along the way.  So good to read that you're in a better place now
		
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Oh I&#8217;ll never shy away from the fact 2017 was an absolute rollercoaster of a year! 


I have had the most phenomenal year, she is absolutely amazing and she has taught me so much- but we were a brand new partnership and I felt under so much pressure to be out there and proving to people just what we could do, without really having cemented the confidence in the partnership first. That&#8217;s where we ran into trouble. It all started when she did a slidey having a hooley in the field and strained her back- being off work bored her and then coming back into work she was a little bit of a handful and I expected far too much far too soon. She IS sensitive!

Luckily for us we had the right support on the yard, and we&#8217;re coming through the other end. My attitude has had to be the biggest change if I&#8217;m honest. She doesn&#8217;t kick off for no reason- there&#8217;s always a reason. She&#8217;s very skilled in the art of compromise.

But for every low, there&#8217;s been 10 highs. Hand on heart. 3 broken ribs and a burst kidney too though, for good measure  

LeannePip what&#8217;s your Instagram? If you don&#8217;t mind?


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## McFluff (18 January 2018)

Although I&#8217;d ridden for years (friends horses and riding schools - I had no money!), I&#8217;d never competed or seriously trained a horse, so when I was looking for my second horse I planned to get a schoolmaster who could take me out and about. I fell for a cheeky, green, strong wee cob and ended up on the training route. I&#8217;m loving the training. It has helped being able to have weekly lessons from a trainer who is super with green horses and keeps me going when I seriously question whether we can progress (spent an awfly long time finding left canter, as an example). 
We&#8217;ve done our first competitions - and she improves every time out. We have a great bond, and just recently everything has started to feel easier. Even thinking we can try a cheeky wee novice test in next few weeks! 
Yes, a more experienced person could have got to this point more quickly, but I&#8217;m enjoying the journey and the learning experience. Now, I wouldn&#8217;t swap this for the world.


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## Peregrine Falcon (18 January 2018)

I was looking for a schoolmaster after loosing my confidence.  I also wanted a companion for it.  The schoolmaster never materialized, the companion did.  Nearly 24 years later I still have him having backed him myself.  

I currently have a homebred mare that again I have trained myself.  I had some help with her though as she was the first one I've done since having the kids (confidence needed a boost!).

So rewarding bringing them on yourself, I love it.


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## NZJenny (18 January 2018)

I'm a "train it" as well, as I've never been able to afford to "buy it".

Everything I've had in the last 30 years I've either bred or purchased as a weanling or yearling, and then done everything from there.  I can afford to pay someone else to start them under saddle for me now, but I still do everything else.  And I have to say that I love most every minute of it.


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## Ambers Echo (19 January 2018)

I am definitely in both the 'wobbly amateur' and the 'train it' camps.....

Very rewarding to bring on  your own. And I agree with whoever said you get out what you put in. It's 4.38am as I type.... I'm off to Aintree which is 2 hours away to school in their indoor. The only slot they had was 8-10am meaning a 5.30 departure  from the yard.

I have felt out of my depth 100 times with Amber and I have been very tempted to send her off to be properly produced by someone with more of a clue. But we are plodding along the scenic route and loving it, despite the odd crisis of confidence.


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## Abi90 (19 January 2018)

Previously I had attempted to &#8220;buy it&#8221; with very little success. Then I ended up with a &#8220;train it&#8221; scenario. And she&#8217;s the most straightforward, easy and trainable Horse out the lot!


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## Bernster (19 January 2018)

Very few in the 'buy' camp it seems.  For me, that's been mainly due to not finding the right horse to buy, and budget to a degree, as I've always tried to buy it!  Just didn't work this time around.

Thinking back, I did buy a safe sane fella when I got my first gelding.  He wasn't a high level horse but he was a schoolmaster for what I wanted to do. Did loads on him but still needed plenty of lessons.

Then bought my lovely mare who wasn't a schoolmaster, too young to say that, but she had had the basics installed and a good start, and had more experience eventing than me. Sadly soundness issues meant we never quite got going.

And whilst I'm thinking of that, how on earth can a 6yo be advertised as a schoolmaster - seen a few ads lately saying that?


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## JustMe22 (19 January 2018)

milliepops said:



			haha!  Pleased it helped someone    def sometimes helps to take a different approach sometimes doesn't it? the textbook doesn't always work and now he's got the concept I bet you can go back to the "book way" and he will know what you want 

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Where is this video? Could you post it here pleeeeaaaseee?


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## LeannePip (19 January 2018)

Jenni_ said:



			LeannePip what&#8217;s your Instagram? If you don&#8217;t mind?
		
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seckereventing - It's very new so probably a bit boring  



Ambers Echo said:



			I am definitely in both the 'wobbly amateur' and the 'train it' camps.....

Very rewarding to bring on  your own. And I agree with whoever said you get out what you put in. It's 4.38am as I type.... I'm off to Aintree which is 2 hours away to school in their indoor. The only slot they had was 8-10am meaning a 5.30 departure  from the yard.

I have felt out of my depth 100 times with Amber and I have been very tempted to send her off to be properly produced by someone with more of a clue. But we are plodding along the scenic route and loving it, despite the odd crisis of confidence.
		
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Wow that's dedication AE - is that the closest indoor to you?

I feel out of my depth a lot too, but my instructors are very good at getting me back on track - I describe the feeling to them as riding along a dodgy mountain track with a big drop either way and one false move will send us crashing down and ruin everything, when essentially its more like a grass ditch at the side of the road and we can fix it no problem.


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## ihatework (19 January 2018)

Bernster said:



			Very few in the 'buy' camp it seems.  For me, that's been mainly due to not finding the right horse to buy, and budget to a degree, as I've always tried to buy it!  Just didn't work this time around.

Thinking back, I did buy a safe sane fella when I got my first gelding.  He wasn't a high level horse but he was a schoolmaster for what I wanted to do. Did loads on him but still needed plenty of lessons.

Then bought my lovely mare who wasn't a schoolmaster, too young to say that, but she had had the basics installed and a good start, and had more experience eventing than me. Sadly soundness issues meant we never quite got going.

And whilst I'm thinking of that, how on earth can a 6yo be advertised as a schoolmaster - seen a few ads lately saying that?
		
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Do you think in part most people are in the train it Camp because they don&#8217;t have the funds (or maybe inclination) to get the schoolmaster?

In my case I would probably always have been in the train it Camp - mostly because I don&#8217;t have decent money to spend on horses for me to ride.
But my schoolmistress was originally on short term loan, I then scrabbled the money together to buy a share so I could keep the ride - and that was purely because she was opening my eyes to things I thought I knew but actually didn&#8217;t!


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## LeannePip (19 January 2018)

Agree with IHW, also a lot of people think they are buying a 'buy it' but actually once they get it home realise it's a 'train it' weather its because its greener than they thought or it goes backwards or they acctually can't ride one side of it, i dont think i know anyone who has bought a 'buy it' and actually been able to go straight out and do what they intended straight away.


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## DabDab (19 January 2018)

I think it is also because 'buy it' seems so easy in principle, but actually it is pretty difficult. You might buy a decent level dressage horse for example and then have to spend time training it to hack well and to perform for a rider that isn't the person who trained it.

I've seen quite a few high level competition horses sold as schoolmasters in their teens that the new rider then struggles to get on with, in spite of being good riders themselves. I think with any new horse you have to go through a bit of a process to get where you want (and that will require investment),  and that might be why the option of buying something cheaper and younger and instead spending the money on more training and putting a pro on board on a regular basis is an increasingly attractive option.


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## ihatework (19 January 2018)

LeannePip said:



			Agree with IHW, also a lot of people think they are buying a 'buy it' but actually once they get it home realise it's a 'train it' weather its because its greener than they thought or it goes backwards or they acctually can't ride one side of it, i dont think i know anyone who has bought a 'buy it' and actually been able to go straight out and do what they intended straight away.
		
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I actually think it would be very unrealistic to get a buy it and expect to be straight out at the level you want to be riding at. It took me 8 months and a hell of a lot of training before I rode at the level of my horse and even that was pretty quick in all consideration. I spent time on the lunge and on a mechanical horse in that period too!


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## Ambers Echo (19 January 2018)

LeannePip said:



			seckereventing - It's very new so probably a bit boring  



Wow that's dedication AE - is that the closest indoor to you?

I feel out of my depth a lot too, but my instructors are very good at getting me back on track - I describe the feeling to them as riding along a dodgy mountain track with a big drop either way and one false move will send us crashing down and ruin everything, when essentially its more like a grass ditch at the side of the road and we can fix it no problem.
		
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It's not the closest but I am competing there on 4th Feb so wanted to practice. Our first SJ comp! And I'm glad I went because I've never seen such well dressed spooky fences! And she's never jumped indoors before either. She was a star. Not one refusal or even a hesitation. Jumped a full course clear. I rode like a Muppet and she could have taken advantage but didn't. Fab horse.


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## LeannePip (19 January 2018)

Yes I agree - but i think that's why theres more people in the 'train it' camp because a lot of people will consider that gap between buying and getting back to the level it was makes it more a 'train it' journey.

I think my point is there is a degree of 'train it' when you buy any horse regardless of whether its a raw 4yo or an Intermediate eventer.


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## LeannePip (19 January 2018)

Oh fabulous AE!  Sounds like it was worth the early start!  Good luck


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## ihatework (19 January 2018)

LeannePip said:



			Yes I agree - but i think that's why theres more people in the 'train it' camp because a lot of people will consider that gap between buying and getting back to the level it was makes it more a 'train it' journey.

I think my point is there is a degree of 'train it' when you buy any horse regardless of whether its a raw 4yo or an Intermediate eventer.
		
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I completely agree but would tweak that to its a &#8216;train the rider&#8217; rather than &#8216;train the horse&#8217;. 

Very difficult to really train a horse unless you really &#8216;get it&#8217; yourself.
If you are only ever training the untrained then you don&#8217;t always know you are going wrong until the wheels fall off.

I only know that because I&#8217;ve been there  and I&#8217;m pretty rubbish!


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## FestiveFuzz (19 January 2018)

I set out to buy an older schoolmaster and ended up with a newly broken 5yo, who sadly sustained a career-ending injury in the field not long after I bought her. On my vets advice, I got a second so that I had something to distract myself with whilst we turned her away in the hope she'd come sound. Horse number 2 (M), had been schooled to PSG and was out competing at AM with decent results. I could never in a million years have afforded him at market value, but his owner had known my trainer many years and agreed to me having him on permanent loan. As fate would have it, a few months later we had to put Pops to sleep, at which point I threw myself into getting to grips with M more as a distraction than anything else!

He is the total opposite of Pops in nearly every way, but incidentally in the year or so I've had him he's become my absolute horse of a lifetime and if I'm honest is the sort of horse I should have got when I set out to buy two years ago. As a fellow wobbly amateur it's been a breath of fresh air to have a horse that knows his stuff, so I can focus on getting me right (and there was a lot that's needed tweaking!). There's definitely been challenges along the way (the downfall is he shines a light at all my shortcomings) and it's a steeper learning curve as he's less generous than a horse that you've worked with to produce up the levels, but on the flipside, once we suss something it's great. I still dream of having a youngster to bring up the levels, as personally I feel there's nothing more rewarding but at the moment I'm just enjoying the journey with M knowing that all this experience I'm gaining will be of great help when I do finally buy another.


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## JFTDWS (19 January 2018)

Oh a lack of money is definitely a factor for many of us.  I also don't really "trust" a lot of other people's approach to training - not that they're getting it wrong, necessarily, but more that it's not always compatible with what I want.  Granted, I am a bit unusual as I do odd things...

I think it's pretty hard to find what you really want in the schoolmaster market - between dodgy dealers, over-optimistic private sellers, people who think a "schoolmaster" is braindead and unresponsive, and differences in styles of riding and training between sellers and buyers.  And on the other side of the market, buyers who think they need a "real" schoolmaster (but actually need a braindead exRS type), buyers who over-estimate their skill, management or bravery, or don't take (or seek) advice from those in a position to judge - it's a lack of clarity from start to finish.


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## SEL (19 January 2018)

milliepops said:



			If that was all I had to ride, I'd have been a bit miserable since it was a lot of hard work and mentally quite challenging.



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This is me right now. Coming up to 3 year anniversary and if I look back on where we came from (barely handled, tried to kill everyone she met, went over backwards on the lad who tried to back her & was heading off for a bullet) then its a looooong way. Trouble is the journey has been exhausting - not least because there have been a tonne of physical issues, esp the PSSM - and I often wish I'd gone for a horse where someone else had done the hard work.

I also don't think she's helped my riding. I made a reference to the box of rosettes my parent's had found in their attic at the yard the other day and one of the liveries said "YOU used to compete?" in that tone of voice...... So obviously I look like I can barely rise to the trot then! I do wish I'd had something else to enjoy whilst training this one.


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## j1ffy (19 January 2018)

As someone else said, I think it's more a choice of whether to put the training into the horse or into yourself as a rider! Obviously you always do a bit of both, but I'm sure that if I bought a PSG schoolmaster I'd spend as much on learning to ride it as I'd spend on training a younger one  

I'm not sure where my two are on the train it / buy it spectrum although they've only ever been competed by me. Pocholo was my first horse as an adult, having recently got back into riding after a 10 year break. He'd been trained in Spain and was very safe to hack, could do piaffe and Spanish walk and some of the lateral movements. However he couldn't trot a 20m circle in a consistent rhythm and bend or work correctly over the back, so we very much went back to basics and re-built from there.

Indio I bought as an unbroken 3yo (actually he was supposed to be my husband's horse). He was backed in Spain but in a more 'English' way so he always went into the contact. Picked up lateral work and changes easily by the age of 5 despite taking it slowly, but then a physical issue emerged that made him go very crooked. Turned him away then lots of hacking, then brought him to England 3 years ago and again had to do a lot of training to get him straighter. Finally found the root of his issues last year but still a huge amount of work to do. Again I'm loving the journey (most of the time...) and learning a huge amount.

I've now bought a foal so will definitely be training!! But he's got a lot more quality than I could afford in a 'made' horse, plus he's very cute. And he's Indio's great-nephew


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## Ambers Echo (19 January 2018)

JFTD said:



			I also don't really "trust" a lot of other people's approach to training - not that they're getting it wrong, necessarily, but more that it's not always compatible with what I want.
		
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I can really relate to this. I fell into horse training by accident really. I was offered a bolshy aggressive 3YO on loan and as at the time I was reading a lot about groundwork etc I figured why not give it a go? I would not have had the confidence to buy a youngster but the owner of this one wanted rid of him for a bit so I took him on. And I found it remarkable how quickly he went from a yob to a gentleman with a bit of groundwork. I re-backed him and got him going really well and then he was sold.

That gave me the confidence to buy an unbacked 3YO who was just lovely. So straightforward compared to every older horse I had known. Since then I have tended to go for the 'blank canvas' so I can do things my own way.

My problem is that although the actual backing process is fine - from unhandled to ridden away -  I am not a skilled enough rider to then produce a horse properly. Amber is a really good horse. But she needs someone to produce her well to realise her potential. I know horses have no sense of being 'wasted' but I know that she really is a bit wasted on me!


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## FestiveFuzz (19 January 2018)

j1ffy said:



			As someone else said, I think it's more a choice of whether to put the training into the horse or into yourself as a rider! Obviously you always do a bit of both, but I'm sure that if I bought a PSG schoolmaster I'd spend as much on learning to ride it as I'd spend on training a younger one 

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Absolutely! Whilst I understand where the OP is coming from with the question of buy it or train it, I do think even with (or possibly more so) high level schoolmasters there are very few that come ready made for any rider. I know personally that it's taken a year out from competing and a minimum of 2 lessons a week (sometimes way more!) for me to reach a point where I feel I can truly influence M's way of going and have started to feel like a proper team. I guess at any level it's very much a case of you get out what you put in and whilst the challenges are different whether you buy something "ready-made" or newly broken, there are definitely challenges whichever route you take.


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## Gloi (19 January 2018)

I've always bought babies to train but I know my limits and always buy native types. I like training youngsters although I'm not as young as I was and not as confident. I currently have a youngster who's coming on well though, looking forward to the summer to do more with him. I wouldn't like to buy a made horse unless I'd known it really well for a long time.


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## milliepops (19 January 2018)

JustMe22 said:



			Where is this video? Could you post it here pleeeeaaaseee? 

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it's embedded in here http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?756953-Happy-retirement-Millie-a-retrospective-)

towards end of the first post. Only a short clip, I had about 90 mins with her but promised to keep the footage to myself so can't share any more on here   "roadrunner" was actually the word she used at the time


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## iknowmyvalue (19 January 2018)

I'm definitely in the "train it" camp. I have always found it incredibly rewarding to bring on and train horses, and seeing their progress. I helped bring on a couple of youngsters/problem ponies for my riding school when I was about 8 and thought it was the best thing ever (even when I got dumped on the floor 6 times in an hour  ) I like buying something younger and more of a blank slate, because I know that I like my horses to go a certain way, and with a youngster you can teach them like that from the start, rather than spending longer unpicking someone elses mistakes. I know some horses are beautifully trained, but those types for what I want are way outside of my budget, so it's more of a choice of something younger or something "problematic". It's interesting that a lot of people are saying you can improve your riding more on a schoolmaster, but I feel like my riding has improved so much from training my own. I suppose that it's more an issue if you're training your own and don't have someone on the ground to correct where you're going wrong with your riding? Though saying that, I'd absolutely love the opportunity for a lesson (or a few!) on a real schoolmaster to see what everything should ideally feel like! 

Rosie was my first real "train it' and we had a lot of ups and downs but I wouldn't have changed it for the world. I definitely fall into the wobbly amateur category, especially at the time when I was a 14yo moving off my first pony! Together we went from going round like a giraffe and not being able to canter a circle in dressage, being taken off with and having every single fence down SJ, a stage where she refused to jump at all even poles on the ground, another stage where she bucked all the time... to eventually Novice dressage, affiliated eventing at 90, unaffiliated at 1m, clear SJ rounds at 90/1m, the best hunter you could ask for, completely safe and a pleasure on the flat at home (as in, you could chuck a complete novice on and she'd happily potter around with them)... I learnt an awful lot with her because she forced me to ride properly, as she was quite happy to make her opinions on your riding known! I also learnt a lot with her working through her issues on the ground. Knowing what I know now, I have no doubt we could have made more progress more quickly, but at the same time I wouldn't be the rider I am now without that journey. I have so many photos and videos of our journey, and looking back on them makes me so proud. 






















Most of you already know about my current "train it" in progress, Henry. He's very much still in progress, but we're getting there. I'm enjoying the journey with him too, especially as the challenges he's throwing at me are so different to what I had with Rosie, but I still feel I can apply the things I learned with her to him (especially the patience part  ). Again, I feel my riding has improved through working with him, because he's forgiving and willing but sensitive, so he needs to correct aids and support to do what I'm asking of him, but when I get it right I can immediately feel the difference! I'm sure we have plenty more ups and downs to come, as he's not always the easiest, but I'm hoping that the fact he had a good start and his good temperament means we'll get there in the end. We've already gone from can't trot a circle and can't canter for more than 5 strides to prelim dressage placings, and from can't jump and has never been XC to jumping hedges out hunting and training over 90-95cm SJ and XC. Competing is a work in progress, jumping in a competition atmosphere and in a different ring to your new best friends is scary when you're Henry


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## {97702} (19 January 2018)

I've had both - a few years ago now I had a schoolmaster eventer who had started off with Oli Townend, he was an absolute machine and we had so much fun including THE best XC round I have EVER had in my life    I bought him incredibly cheaply for various reasons and doubled my money when I sold him, much to the chagrin of the eventer who had sold him to me.  His main downside was that he was 17.2hh and I am 5'2"  but he was a total gentleman so it never mattered!

I currently have an amazingly green sports cob who I would never have taken on if I'd realise what a massive task he was going to be.  I get despondent regularly but am hugely lucky to have two top level trainers to help me and kick me up the backside and I am so excited about the future with him.  

For me each have their advantages, can't say I would go for one over the other really


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## Bernster (20 January 2018)

Good point re distinction between train the horse or train the rider.  As people have said, obv both routes require both, but having a schoolmaster would for me mean much more train the rider.  I wonder which I'd find easier!

Currently it's a bit of train us both, which is what sometimes causes our blips or slower progress.  That said, I chuck a whole load of training and effort into getting through these, and with experienced help we've not had any *major* setbacks yet (currently feeling much better about our jumping, so am really pleased that I feel like this now).


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## Auslander (20 January 2018)

The biggest challenge I had, when figuring out how to ride Alf, was not that he was tricky, or trained in a different way to what I was used to, but the simple fact that the person who started him and trained him to advanced is about 6 inches shorter than me - so he was used to the aids being applied a lot higher up than I can. We compromised - I ride a bit shorter on him than I would normally, and he (mostly) interprets my aids and does what I ask him. It's always interesting to watch a shorter rider on him, because even a green rider gets an easier ride from him than I did when we first got together!


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## ycbm (20 January 2018)

This reminds me a bit of the seven stages of man 

My lifecycle has been:

Too poor to buy trained.

Too penny pinching to buy trained.

No point in buying trained when I love training my own.

I'm waiting to see what the next stage might be. I'd love a GP trained horse, but can't afford one, and in any case I wonder how long I would love it for, as I still thrive on seeing changes in the horse.  If anyone wants a barefoot rehab done on one, payment being to leave the horse with me for six months after it's sound, please let me know!


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## AandK (20 January 2018)

I would love to be able to buy a trained horse to have some fun and learn from, if I had the money Id have an eventer and a dressage horse, and a youngster to bring on. But I dont have that sort of money, so its just a distant dream...

I got my current horse (21yo) as a green 5yo and have very much enjoyed the journey weve been on together, Ive learnt so much that I can take with me onto the next horse (whenever that will be). I do get a lot of comments about how it must be nice to have such a well schooled horse, but of course he wasnt like that when I bought him :wink3:


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## Cortez (20 January 2018)

Bit of both, if possible. Interesting how many people have NEVER ridden a trained (or schoolmaster, if you like) horse and have had to train their own. I am very, very lucky to have had the benefit of riding many schoolmaster horses and this has meant that all those babies I've trained have received the wisdom of their educated forbears.

It's lovely to train your own, but you will be in a much better position to make that process happier for the horse if you know what you are doing.


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## Auslander (20 January 2018)

Cortez said:



			Bit of both, if possible. Interesting how many people have NEVER ridden a trained (or schoolmaster, if you like) horse and have had to train their own. I am very, very lucky to have had the benefit of riding many schoolmaster horses and this has meant that all those babies I've trained have received the wisdom of their educated forbears.

It's lovely to train your own, but you will be in a much better position to make that process happier for the horse if you know what you are doing.
		
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Agree. I owe pretty much everything I know to a little old stallion who was my teacher when I first went out to Germany. He had all the Haute Ecole moves, as well as the GP dressage ones, and had to be ridden absolutely correctly, or he did nothing. The first week there, I couldn't even get him to trot (or even walk in a straight line!). He was the most unforgiving horse I've ever ridden, but I learned more from him in the three months I rode him (until I was deemed competent enough to ride the others) than I've learned from any two legged trainer. I also fell off over his tail several times, because he had been taught to sit down from piaffe! 
I probably could have muddled my way through training Aussie to the level I did, but the process was far more simple because of what Schnuppi had taught me. Knowing what perfection should feel like is really helpful when trying to achieve it!


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## milliepops (20 January 2018)

There aren't many really well trained horses like that around though, are there? When I was doing BHS exams even the stage 4 horses were not that nice to ride... and that place has closed now as have many riding schools/training centres. I can think of a couple of places within about a 2 hour drive where "schoolmasters" are available - it's  not very accessible and the cost would be difficult to accomodate for many people on a regular basis.

I loved riding the schoolmaster at AM Dressage, he was not an easy ride for the reasons mentioned above, highlighted any and all of the rider's weaknesses. But great fun and fab to feel how to ride the advanced work on a horse that knew the job.


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## NinjaPony (20 January 2018)

I've done a bit of both in the wrong order! Second pony was totally green and so was I-only reason we didn't come to grief was because I had an excellent instructor, and my pony was extremely kind and tried hard even when she didn't understand what to do! Next pony was a champion WH pony I bought for his exceptional temperament-so school master in the sense that to jump he is totally point and shoot, and has a wonderful, sensible temperament. Downside being I don't jump... so he was retrained to become a dressage pony! So we had to teach him 'dressage' from scratch, but it's much easier IMO to do that with an already established, sensible horse who had a decent level of schooling already. 6 years with him has made me a much better rider because he rewards you when you ask properly, and is extremely willing to work with you. Next one will hopefully be somewhere in the middle-established at elementary dressage with ability to move up the levels, but I'm unlikely to be able to afford a third for a while. So my plan is once I stop competing my pony, to find a schoolmaster share to teach me more until I get another!


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## Abi90 (20 January 2018)

Lévrier;13709403 said:
			
		


			I've had both - a few years ago now I had a schoolmaster eventer who had started off with Oli Townend, he was an absolute machine and we had so much fun including THE best XC round I have EVER had in my life    I bought him incredibly cheaply for various reasons and doubled my money when I sold him, much to the chagrin of the eventer who had sold him to me.  His main downside was that he was 17.2hh and I am 5'2"  but he was a total gentleman so it never mattered!

I currently have an amazingly green sports cob who I would never have taken on if I'd realise what a massive task he was going to be.  I get despondent regularly but am hugely lucky to have two top level trainers to help me and kick me up the backside and I am so excited about the future with him.  

For me each have their advantages, can't say I would go for one over the other really
		
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He wasn&#8217;t a liver chestnut called Larry was he?


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## JFTDWS (20 January 2018)

milliepops said:



			There aren't many really well trained horses like that around though, are there?
		
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Indeed.  We seem to have low standards in this country - most of the international trainers I've known / spoken to / observed teach say exactly the same thing as Cortez.


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## {97702} (20 January 2018)

Abi90 said:



			He wasn&#8217;t a liver chestnut called Larry was he?
		
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Sadly no, he was the most gorgeous dark bay Selle Francais called Josh (Ikor de Kersalic).  Our BE record is uninspiring but I jumped 1m 15 on him which I never dreamed I would do, and our BE100 XC round at Monmouth was the best few minutes of my entire life......


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## Abi90 (20 January 2018)

Lévrier;13709829 said:
			
		


			Sadly no, he was the most gorgeous dark bay Selle Francais called Josh (Ikor de Kersalic).  Our BE record is uninspiring but I jumped 1m 15 on him which I never dreamed I would do, and our BE100 XC round at Monmouth was the best few minutes of my entire life......  

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Ah just wondered as there is a 17.2hh ex eventer that Ollie Townend had at Mynott old yard. Lovely horse he is


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## DabDab (20 January 2018)

JFTD said:



			Indeed.  We seem to have low standards in this country - most of the international trainers I've known / spoken to / observed teach say exactly the same thing as Cortez.
		
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I think we do have them about, but not often offered for lessons - generally you get the opportunity when knocking around as a working pupil or similar.

In any case, training on a schoolmaster is like learning a set of tricks, along with the musculature, body control and timing to perform the tricks correctly. It's like learning to drive a car fast. But there's a big difference between that and developing a consistent relationship with your own schoolmaster, or training up another. 

As for the happiness of the horse being trained - I have met many an unhappy horse trained by someone with all the right training/education, and many a happy horse who was trained by an amateur. As attractive as it is to think that there is a solid gold 'right' way to do things, I'm not sure it is so black and white.


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## chaps89 (21 January 2018)

I have done both, pretty much concurrently-- although the 'buy' is a share. Honestly - they're both hard work and I've needed alot of professional help to get us to where we are. I was quite naive when I bought my 'train' it, I was comfortable in my abilities when I bought her but reached rock bottom this time last year. Fortunately I found an amazing instructor who has got us back on track but even so we still have such  a long way to go.
I'd echo it is nice to have 2 on the go though- usually 1 is going better than the other which helps you stay positive.
I have to say though, i'd quite like to ride something in between the 2 extremes, to remind myself what normal is!


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## Ahrena (21 January 2018)

I trained my last one and its been been the most rewarding thing Ive ever done. 

Id had an excellent schoolmaster and spent a year as a working pupil where I helped back a couple of horses. I then worked freelance for a year before I bought my mare.

I wanted a horse I would never outgrow talent/ambition wise as Im rubbish at selling. Obviously there was no gurrantee a youngster I bought would be up for the job but that was my intention. I also didnt want (or could!) spend 15k+ on a horse.

So I bought my mare 4.5 years ago. We havnt gotten as far as Id of liked by now - she didnt grow into herself until she was 7 so I took 2.5 years to get her eventing properly.  Our first proper season was interrupted by a gap when she had ulcers and her sacroiliac injected although we finished that season at be100, then the following spring we had a horse fall xc schooling which destroyed my confidence and fed on to her and we had a rubbish season but managed to pull it back by the end with a few wins.

I love her to bits. Everything she does, I know I produced that. Shes now working at medium dressage at home and doing well BD, even though I doubt we will reach the dizzying heights I envisioned when I bought her given my lost confidence, she has scope to burn and just the fact Ive created this lovely, well schooled, obedient horse despite the fact she can be as hot as hellfire is frankly the best thing Ive ever done.

Until im Ancient I will never buy a backed horse again.


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## Ambers Echo (21 January 2018)

DabDab said:



			As for the happiness of the horse being trained - I have met many an unhappy horse trained by someone with all the right training/education, and many a happy horse who was trained by an amateur. As attractive as it is to think that there is a solid gold 'right' way to do things, I'm not sure it is so black and white.
		
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I read 'happier' in that post as 'less confused!' In that respect I agree that better riders make far better trainers and the horses probably appreciate it greatly.

With Amber I think she is happy in general. I have no doubt that were she with a professional she would be far further on in terms of raw performance. My YO's daughter used to work for a professional showjumper's yard and they had all their 4 & 5 year olds going round British Novice - no faffing around with  building things up slowly. But I think given the choice they might prefer a slightly slower learning curve?

But I am acutely aware that I irritate Amber because I am so 'noisy' as a rider. I still balance on my hands, I lose balance when she jumps big, I tighten up and bounce around and  give poor quality cues. That must be so annoying for her. 

My daughter's pony was a 'schoolmaster' in the sense that if you wobbled too much he'd chuck you off. He HATED unbalanced riders. Amber is much more forgiving!


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## Bernster (21 January 2018)

On the schoolmaster point, I agree that they're aren't many great horses readily available to ride, share or buy for that matter. For me, I don't feel I need to do that at the moment, for my level of riding and what I want to do.

F seems perfectly happy pootling along doing what we're doing and i doubt he cares that he *could* be miles better.  As long as my patience and confidence holds out, we'll do ok.  it's not like he's not getting a good education, although it's perhaps a bit more basic as a result.  But that makes him a very straightforward RC type and as noted on other threads, that's very sought after so I don't feel like I'm letting him down.


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## JFTDWS (21 January 2018)

Bernster said:



			it's not like he's not getting a good education, although it's perhaps a bit more basic as a result.  But that makes him a very straightforward RC type and as noted on other threads, that's very sought after so I don't feel like I'm letting him down.
		
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But actually - I think that's really important.  A good horse isn't necessarily a trained schoolmaster with all the fun buttons.  What most people really need early in their riding careers (or after breaks, or after having issues or for about a million other reasons) is a well trained, genuine, kind horse who deals with life in a straightforward way.  I think those sorts of horses are lacking from the market.  

One thing I've noticed is that when watching freelancers / local instructors helping very novice owners with their horses is that they focus on training the horse to look "pretty" - nose tucked in etc - rather than training the horse and owner to deal with "life" generally and just work sensibly / deal with the odd flappy amateur / respond to the aids and just get on with it.


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## ester (21 January 2018)

Riding something that went correctly made a big difference to what I went back home and did with my own, he loved me coming back and saying Frank, what you do isn't correct bend at all, we have to do it like this . It was an amazing experience and great to realise I could ride that too, especially hotter off the leg horses when my own just isn't! But there definitely aren't that many horses available to have lessons on and even fewer people happy to let you lose on them as a relatively lower level amateur rider. 

I do wish that earlier on in our relationship someone had concentrated on me first and ignored what the horse was doing a bit more.


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## DabDab (21 January 2018)

Yes, that's a good point I think the balance between training the horse and training the rider can be hard for a lot of trainers/instructors to get right. I think that's possibly why having a pro to ride alongside a fairly rider focused trainer can work quite well


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## Bernster (21 January 2018)

ester said:



			I do wish that earlier on in our relationship someone had concentrated on me first and ignored what the horse was doing a bit more.
		
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This very much!  And what JFTD is saying.  I'm so grateful to have such a forgiving horse, who really tries for me, although occasionally we are a bit too similar and we get into a bit of a pickle!

So much of training, in my experience, seems to be about that last quick fix to get the horse to look like it's going correctly.  Whilst I've learned some great stuff along the way, recently my lessons have focussed far more on me and how im influencing F and on unpicking and starting over in terms of his way of going.  We've had some amazing lightbulb moments as a result (and a 10%increase in score when I last ventured out to stressage!).


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## teddypops (21 January 2018)

Train it for me. I love the challenge of either breaking and schooling or getting an unwanted problem pony and having success with them.


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## ester (21 January 2018)

I don't think that trainer was particularly quick fixy, I just thing she thought I was an ok rider and we could skip a few things/that I would pick it up as we went along improving him. I remember discovering the outside rein with that person but that was fluke (but I don't think she realised that I didn't understand it) we definitely came on plenty well in that time from nothing to good novice tests but actually when a few arguably very simple things were broken down for me by a FBHS later on it made a huge difference to my riding and will stay with me. 
But whether I would have totally got that in the first place I'm not sure, but definitely would have been helpful earlier! I was a RS kid who only really started to ride properly when I got mine when I was 21. I don't think I had any feel at that point. 

If/before I get another I will be looking for someone to do the same thing with my jumping, I had found someone then the pony went lame and once rehabbed was too old to worry too much about it!


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## PapaverFollis (21 January 2018)

If Im really honest I would probably rather buy it and just crack on. But can't afford to! Fortunately hubby likes to train it.  Besides when I tried to buy it (out of work nearly veteran, so cheaper!) I ended up retraining it anyway. I only bought her as a hack to be fair but got sucked into schooling her so maybe I like to train it more than I think.


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## EventingMum (21 January 2018)

I've always had horses to bring on as we could never afford to buy an established one. My first horse was bought from a dealer, supposedly 5 yo but actually only 3 yo  Before him I'd had a pony who was 6 yo but I outgrew him in 9 months so he had to be sold on. The horse was a steep learning curve especially as I was only 12 but I had a lot of support from my instructor and through Pony Club. Although far from an ideal scenario on paper in the long run it worked out ok, I did all PC activities on him, representing my branch for sj and eventing, we also dabbled in team chasing with friends before focussing on show jumping where he was very sucessful competing at HOYS for the Foxhunter final, National Grade B Championship and many other finals. He ended up Grade A, jumping International Trials - not bad as he was only 15hh!  Everything else I've competed has also been young but this one was definitely my horse of a lifetime.

My son also only ever had youngsters, from his first pony onwards he's never had anything more than a 5 yo. Again he learnt with them with a lot of help and support. He competed sucessfully in junior BS with his home produced ponies and with horses did some BS and then turned to BE as well as PC championships in all 3 disciplines, his main horse went from a green 5yo to a 2* eventer.  

Both of us achieved this at a relatively young age and that perhaps was a key factor, when you're young you don't over analyse things and worry about being perfect. We both enjoyed our horses but lacked financial backing bar for a short time when my son jumped ponies for an owner. I'm sure buying a schoolmaster would have perhaps allowed us both to achieve things more quickly but there's nothing like the bond you build up bringing a horse on yourself and what you learn on your journey. Neither of us ride much now but both are confident in working through problems with less than perfect horses or youngsters, skills we perhaps wouldn't have picked up with schoolmasters. Of course we needed help and support along the way as well as patience and perseverance and perhaps we were lucky to have talented horses.


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## silv (21 January 2018)

I was always in the "train it" camp as could never afford to buy anything else really.
  A financial windfall a couple of years ago enabled my to buy a schoolmistress type who was working at Med/advanced Med.  The difference she made to my riding was remarkable.  She was well trained but I still had to learn how to ride her properly and thoroughly enjoyed every minute.  All the stuff I learned with her I have put into practice with my other horse whom has always been a bit tricky on the flat and he has since come on leaps and bounds.  
Sadly I lost her just before Christmas with an aneurysm leaving me heartbroken. However her legacy has me actively looking for a similar type to carry on where I left off.


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## DabDab (21 January 2018)

ester said:



			If/before I get another I will be looking for someone to do the same thing with my jumping, I had found someone then the pony went lame and once rehabbed was too old to worry too much about it!
		
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One of my strongest memories is the first time I sat on an ex international show jumper, who was also a cocky know-it-all of a horse (always blamed on him being half Welsh ) at the age of about 16 - never before had I felt such an ineffectual passenger on a horse. I just remember thinking that this was the coolest horse I had ever met


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## MagicMelon (24 January 2018)

I much prefer to do it myself. Ive had three who were sold to me as "schoolmasters" years ago and they weren't - two had attitudes and made my life hell although I would say the other one was, he was lovely. But when Ive bought 4 or 5yo's who are unbacked or haven't done much then at least they can't be damaged in any way generally and I can bring them on how I want. I love doing it, in fact I get bored once they are established! I get far more satisfaction introducing them to their firsts of things like eventing etc. and when they go well its just the best thing. I wouldnt like to buy readymade, too much chance for them to go downhill with me and my ways ha ha!  If they're not much to begin with, they can only go up IMO!  As with anything though, it totally depends on the horse. A really genuine nice temperament and attitude is everything for me nowadays.


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## njyr (18 February 2018)

Hey! I've been on the lookout for some 'normal' horse videos, what are these MP's videos you talk of?! Thanks in advance!


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## DabDab (18 February 2018)

I don't think the specific video mentioned up thread is on here, but I'm sure MP won't mind me posting a link to her youtube:
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC1YFF34vX4c10JN4_L7qD8w


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