# Panorama tonight - racing industry and slaughterhouses



## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

Not sure I can bear to watch but apparently it exposes the fact that thousands (yes it says thousands) of racehorses, including many young horses and previously successful horses, are sent to slaughterhouses each year. When will action be taken to stop this cruel and awful wastage in this industry? Never - because the betting industry is too powerful? At least something is being said in the programme about the dark side of what actually goes on. It's too often swept under the carpet and the general public's perception is that racing is a fun day out with lovely hats.


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## rabatsa (19 July 2021)

There are a lot worse ends for a horse than a clean death.


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## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

Apparently the slaughterhouses are not giving them a clean death and that is the main point of the documentary.


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## minesadouble (19 July 2021)

I know it seems harsh but a lot are better off going straight to the slaughterhouse than passed from pillar to post among a bunch of well  meaning idiots. 
We've just had someone at our livery yard buy one as a first pony for their 12 year old daughter, that's going well as I'm sure you can imagine!! 
I have had 4 ex racehorses in the past and they've all been lovely animals but in general they are not a mug's companion. 
I also never quite understand why there's a huge uproar about horses going for humane dispatch from non-vegetarians.


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## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

What about riding them at 18 months?


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## Tiddlypom (19 July 2021)

Marigold4 said:



			Apparently the slaughterhouses are not giving them a clean death and that is the main point of the documentary.
		
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This. The slaughterhouse is apparently not killing them all of clean and per proper practice. Some horses are being shot from from a distance, and some with other horses present. They are being caused unnecessary stress, pain and suffering.

_'The footage recorded horses being shot together 26 times over the four days of filming.

On 91 occasions the cameras recorded a slaughterman shooting horses, not close up, but from a distance.'_

I've no problem with well run slaughterhouses.

How on earth do poor practices still remain in the industry?

Horse racing: Thousands of racehorses killed in slaughterhouses https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57881979


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## Goldenstar (19 July 2021)

While I would wish that no horse ended it life being PTS in a abattoir there are far worse things that can happen to TB’s .
They are wonderful horses and cheap to buy but they are more likely than not going to be expensive to maintain when they end in the hands of those to inexperienced to train them and or with out the financial resource to manage their preventative healthcare their suffering is sometimes acute but often long term and chronic .
I hope it’s a balanced piece not a it’s terrible to shoot the pretty horses thing , it is terrible to shoot beautiful young animals but what may face them in the hands of inexperienced numpties might well be worse .


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## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			While I would wish that no horse ended it life being PTS in a abattoir there are far worse things that can happen to TB’s .
They are wonderful horses and cheap to buy but they are more likely than not going to be expensive to maintain when they end in the hands of those to inexperienced to train them and or with out the financial resource to manage their preventative healthcare their suffering is sometimes acute but often long term and chronic .
I hope it’s a balanced piece not a it’s terrible to shoot the pretty horses thing , it is terrible to shoot beautiful young animals but what may face them in the hands of inexperienced numpties might well be worse .
		
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I agree but what could be done to stop the mistreatment you describe in your post? Surely it's not right to allow this and then say a clean death is a good end for these horses. I think the general public have no idea what goes on behind the scenes - I've heard a number of non-horsey people say "but the horses love it".


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## cauda equina (19 July 2021)

As has been said - it sounds as if many of the deaths are far from clean
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...ng-sent-to-abattoirs-bbc-investigation-claims
I would have no argument with unwanted TBs being put down at home, like a lot of us do
You'd think the cost of euthanasia and removal would be small beer compared to the expense of keeping a horse in training


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## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

cauda equina said:



			As has been said - it sounds as if many of the deaths are far from clean
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...ng-sent-to-abattoirs-bbc-investigation-claims
I would have no argument with unwanted TBs being put down at home, like a lot of us do
You'd think the cost of euthanasia and removal would be small beer compared to the expense of keeping a horse in training
		
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It's worth considering WHY so many (thousands apparently) are in a situation that necessitates them being put down. Poor training that results in injury, not fast enough, ridden too young. Wouldn't it be better to address the cause of their being not rideable and take action rather than just say there are many worse things for a horse than PTS. The "worse things" need to be stopped. It will soon be  the case that horses are considered sentient beings under the law. Animal Welfare Act. let's hope that changes things for the better.


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## cauda equina (19 July 2021)

Even if the poor training/ridden too young problems were sorted there would always be many horses who were not fast enough
I don't know what should be done with them, assuming there are more than can be found suitable homes doing other jobs


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## Goldenstar (19 July 2021)

Of course it’s a small cost .
But a lot of these horses won’t be with the trainers when the decision is made to end their lives .



Marigold4 said:



			I agree but what could be done to stop the mistreatment you describe in your post? Surely it's not right to allow this and then say a clean death is a good end for these horses. I think the general public have no idea what goes on behind the scenes - I've heard a number of non-horsey people say "but the horses love it".
		
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Nothing can be done about happens to horses out in the world until will we face up to the fact that horses cost a lot of money to maintain and you need knowledge to do it well .
Insurance is only a partial answer .
It’s has become unacceptable to say you can’t afford a horse you can only afford it of nothing goes wrong , you don’t ride well enough , you can’t afford anything except good luck with the journey health and maintenance wise , it is irresponsible to buy a fat horse  and keep it on grass livery with no plan to get it to and maintain a healthy weight .I could go on and on .
Nothing is going to change while its unacceptable to point out the difficulties of managing horses .  

Its all very well for Panorama to whip a brouhaha about the evil rich racehorses owners /trainers and yes racing does have a case to answer .
But just imagine if they set to on the suffering caused to leisure horses by obesity and it’s roll in orthopaedic damage early life lameness and being bunged in fields to get fat because the insurance has run out and then we get to laminitis all of that unnecessary suffering  .
Because there’s really not a lot of difference .


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## Sussexbythesea (19 July 2021)

Marigold4 said:



			It's worth considering WHY so many (thousands apparently) are in a situation that necessitates them being put down. Poor training that results in injury, not fast enough, ridden too young. Wouldn't it be better to address the cause of their being not rideable and take action rather than just say there are many worse things for a horse than PTS. The "worse things" need to be stopped. It will soon be  the case that horses are considered sentient beings under the law. Animal Welfare Act. let's hope that changes things for the better.
		
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Whilst I agree a horse put down “humanely” including at a well run slaughter house is better off than one that falls into the wrong hands and lives a miserable life we should question why there is so much wastage in the industry. I think most of us here do know why and perhaps it’s time 18 month / 2yr olds are not allowed to be ridden let alone raced. There is simply no need.


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## cauda equina (19 July 2021)

At the very least I hope this will result in the abattoir either getting its act together or losing its license


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## Pearlsasinger (19 July 2021)

cauda equina said:



			As has been said - it sounds as if many of the deaths are far from clean
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...ng-sent-to-abattoirs-bbc-investigation-claims
I would have no argument with unwanted TBs being put down at home, like a lot of us do
You'd think the cost of euthanasia and removal would be small beer compared to the expense of keeping a horse in training
		
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It sounds to me as if the scandal is in the slaughterhouse, which  is where it should be addressed.  
The 'wastage' within the racing industry is dreadful but as said there are far worse things that can happen to a horse than a clean death.  Owners should be prepared to pay for failed racers to be shot at home and trainers should make that clear from the outset. 'Out of sight, out of mind' is far too easy for owners who are not hands on


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## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

Sussexbythesea said:



			Whilst I agree a horse put down “humanely” including at a well run slaughter house is better off than one that falls into the wrong hands and lives a miserable life we should question why there is so much wastage in the industry. I think most of us here do know why and perhaps it’s time 18 month / 2yr olds are not allowed to be ridden let alone raced. There is simply no need.
		
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I totally 100% agree about two year olds racing. The need arises, I think, because you then don't have to pay for the animal's keep till it is 4. It really needs to be stopped. I'm pretty sure if a private owner was galloping a succession of two year olds around in intensive training someone would have something to say. Why is it OK for racing to do this.


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## cauda equina (19 July 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			It sounds to me as if the scandal is in the slaughterhouse, which  is where it should be addressed. 
The 'wastage' within the racing industry is dreadful but as said there are far worse things that can happen to a horse than a clean death.  Owners should be prepared to pay for failed racers to be shot at home and trainers should make that clear from the outset. 'Out of sight, out of mind' is far too easy for owners who are not hands on
		
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Well yes in part, but even before they reach the slaughterhouse someone has made the decision to ship injured horses across the Irish Sea
I very much agree that pts should be done at home, or as close to home as possible, and that owners should be made to do the right thing by their horses


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## Roasted Chestnuts (19 July 2021)

There are fates worse than death, like being passed around broken by unscrupulous people or starved by the do-gooders that have no idea what they are doing or these ‘rescues’ that end up inflicting more long term suffering.

If anything it will hopefully make the slaughterhouses sharpen up and more efficient.

It’s not just the racing industry that has two year olds ridden. I see adverts for horses being ridden/driven at two and three on Facebook constantly. The whole equine industry is doing it but until there Is no money in it then it won’t stop.

4yr old event horse classes With the schooling and clean jumping style they have? Really?  Like that’s only been broken that year? No it was broken at three and has been schooled and jumped. How is that any less damaging than racing? Can’t dump it all on the racing industry SJ DR and eventing dump their dead weight as well.


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## Not_so_brave_anymore (19 July 2021)

I have no issue with horses being euthanised. The two main issues for me are 1) quality of life while alive, and 2) method of death. Shipping live animals for slaughter should be illegal, and the already stringent laws for abattoirs should be enforced (were these abattoirs non-UK? If so, even more reason not to ship animals abroad)


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## Steerpike (19 July 2021)

Wasn't F Drury involved in bad handling of horses in their slaughter houses before now?


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## cauda equina (19 July 2021)

I don't know about horses but
https://www.animalaid.org.uk/slaughterhouse-illegality-cruelty-exposed/

and a worker was killed in 2013
It doesn't sound the best run place


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## Sussexbythesea (19 July 2021)

Reflecting on recent threads where people who are barely overweight are vilified for riding a mature up to weight horse and yet seem quite comfortable with some practices in the racing industry. I’m not anti-racing per se but I do think it should be modernised with regard to animal welfare practices in some areas.

I don’t think riding a two year old in any sphere is OK. I don’t think there should be any four year old classes in any sphere either as this just encourages people to ride horses and train them hard too early. I agree it’s not just a racing thing but if more care were taken in early years maybe more could go on to have useful second careers.


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## meleeka (19 July 2021)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			There are fates worse than death, like being passed around broken by unscrupulous people or starved by the do-gooders that have no idea what they are doing or these ‘rescues’ that end up inflicting more long term suffering.

If anything it will hopefully make the slaughterhouses sharpen up and more efficient.

It’s not just the racing industry that has two year olds ridden. I see adverts for horses being ridden/driven at two and three on Facebook constantly. The whole equine industry is doing it but until there Is no money in it then it won’t stop.

4yr old event horse classes With the schooling and clean jumping style they have? Really?  Like that’s only been broken that year? No it was broken at three and has been schooled and jumped. How is that any less damaging than racing? Can’t dump it all on the racing industry SJ DR and eventing dump their dead weight as well.
		
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Pearlsasinger said:



			It sounds to me as if the scandal is in the slaughterhouse, which  is where it should be addressed.  
The 'wastage' within the racing industry is dreadful but as said there are far worse things that can happen to a horse than a clean death.  Owners should be prepared to pay for failed racers to be shot at home and trainers should make that clear from the outset. 'Out of sight, out of mind' is far too easy for owners who are not hands on
		
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Sussexbythesea said:



			Whilst I agree a horse put down “humanely” including at a well run slaughter house is better off than one that falls into the wrong hands and lives a miserable life we should question why there is so much wastage in the industry. I think most of us here do know why and perhaps it’s time 18 month / 2yr olds are not allowed to be ridden let alone raced. There is simply no need.
		
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“Two wrongs don’t make a right”. 

The fact that there horses were bred to make people very rich should ensure that they at least receive a calm a dignified end.   Of course there’s unbelievable cruelty to horses in all walks of life, but it doesn’t excuse this.


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## tristar (19 July 2021)

what pxsses me off is the reverence in which some of these racehorse people are held, sorry if anyone does not like my opinion but they need to go and learn something about horses because from where i`m standing they are pretty useless, from personal experience

there should be public uproar and disgrace out of this and i hope there is, i hope they are made to take stick for their ignorance once and for all forced to change policies, there are too many mediocre tb used for breeding, management is poor, training is poor, welfare is poor too many who have no clue of one end of a horse from the other, and i have seen it myself, personal experience sadly




Pearlsasinger said:



			It sounds to me as if the scandal is in the slaughterhouse, which  is where it should be addressed.  
The 'wastage' within the racing industry is dreadful but as said there are far worse things that can happen to a horse than a clean death.  Owners should be prepared to pay for failed racers to be shot at home and trainers should make that clear from the outset. 'Out of sight, out of mind' is far too easy for owners who are not hands on
		
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## cauda equina (19 July 2021)

All animals bred and owned by humans deserve a calm dignified end, whether they are bred in the purple TBs, coloured cobs, beef cattle or porkers


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## Matafleur (19 July 2021)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			There are fates worse than death, like being passed around broken by unscrupulous people or starved by the do-gooders that have no idea what they are doing or these ‘rescues’ that end up inflicting more long term suffering.

If anything it will hopefully make the slaughterhouses sharpen up and more efficient.

It’s not just the racing industry that has two year olds ridden. I see adverts for horses being ridden/driven at two and three on Facebook constantly. The whole equine industry is doing it but until there Is no money in it then it won’t stop.

4yr old event horse classes With the schooling and clean jumping style they have? Really?  Like that’s only been broken that year? No it was broken at three and has been schooled and jumped. How is that any less damaging than racing? Can’t dump it all on the racing industry SJ DR and eventing dump their dead weight as well.
		
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In defence of the eventing young horse classes, I, as a really not very good amateur was able to take a horse broken in the spring of her 4 yr old year and do reasonably well at BYEH. It's no problem for pros to take a quality young horse and make it look very impressive at that level in a couple of months.

I'm not saying there aren't horses that are broken at 3 and doing these classes but there will be plenty there that haven't done a great deal at all.


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## Goldenstar (19 July 2021)

meleeka said:



			“Two wrongs don’t make a right”.

The fact that there horses were bred to make people very rich should ensure that they at least receive a calm a dignified end.   Of course there’s unbelievable cruelty to horses in all walks of life, but it doesn’t excuse this.
		
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Of course it should and if you can’t afford to give a horse a dignified end don’t buy one


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## TheMule (19 July 2021)

cauda equina said:



			At the very least I hope this will result in the abattoir either getting its act together or losing its license
		
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You really think that? You want the only slaughterhouse in the UK to shut? You want the horses to travel hound reds, potentially thousands more miles to a much less regulated slaughterhouse abroad?


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## TheMule (19 July 2021)

cauda equina said:



			I don't know about horses but
https://www.animalaid.org.uk/slaughterhouse-illegality-cruelty-exposed/

and a worker was killed in 2013
It doesn't sound the best run place
		
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F Drury rent out the premises for the horse days, it's actually run by totally different people


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## splashgirl45 (19 July 2021)

i wont be watching....i am not against slaughtering animals but am very against it being done in a cruel way.  i include sheep, pigs, cattle, chickens, deer and horses.... all of them can feel fear and distress and more needs to be done to make sure all slaughterhouses are monitored and the correct practices are being maintained.  the racing industry need to be more proactive in welfare at this last stage of the horses life.  there is enough money in the industry to have their own slaughterhouses in various parts of the country to ensure that everything is being done correctly.  its no good ITV banging on about welfare at the races, the need to do something about the many horses who are forgotten......if every racing fan put £5 towards welfare at the end of life and owners put maybe £500 they would have a huge amount of money to play with....


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## Frumpoon (19 July 2021)

Travelling a horse 350 miles with a career ending injury is unspeakably cruel


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## cauda equina (19 July 2021)

TheMule said:



			You really think that? You want the only slaughterhouse in the UK to shut? You want the horses to travel hound reds, potentially thousands more miles to a much less regulated slaughterhouse abroad?
		
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It's a very poor state of affairs if the choice is seen to be between a cr*p death at this place or a cr*p death somewhere else, especially within an industry that's not short of money


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## marmalade76 (19 July 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			This. The slaughterhouse is apparently not killing them all of clean and per proper practice. Some horses are being shot from from a distance, and some with other horses present. They are being caused unnecessary stress, pain and suffering.

_'The footage recorded horses being shot together 26 times over the four days of filming.

On 91 occasions the cameras recorded a slaughterman shooting horses, not close up, but from a distance.'_

I've no problem with well run slaughterhouses.

How on earth do poor practices still remain in the industry?

Horse racing: Thousands of racehorses killed in slaughterhouses https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57881979

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If this is the case, the problem is with the slaughter houses and not the racing industry.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (19 July 2021)

Matafleur said:



			In defence of the eventing young horse classes, I, as a really not very good amateur was able to take a horse broken in the spring of her 4 yr old year and do reasonably well at BYEH. It's no problem for pros to take a quality young horse and make it look very impressive at that level in a couple of months.

I'm not saying there aren't horses that are broken at 3 and doing these classes but there will be plenty there that haven't done a great deal at all.
		
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No matter how anyone tried to justify it it more harm is being done to these young horses skeletally by doing these classes. The same is being said about racing at a young age. Horses don’t mature skeltally until 6.

I am not defending racing however if you are going to tar one then you need to tar them all.


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## TPO (19 July 2021)

Matafleur said:



			In defence of the eventing young horse classes, I, as a really not very good amateur was able to take a horse broken in the spring of her 4 yr old year and do reasonably well at BYEH. It's no problem for pros to take a quality young horse and make it look very impressive at that level in a couple of months.

I'm not saying there aren't horses that are broken at 3 and doing these classes but there will be plenty there that haven't done a great deal at all.
		
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I think the crux is how many go on to live long, healthy lives? 

It'll be on here somewhere but there were stats showing that many who won/placed in the classes didnt stay sound long term.

At the end of the day it all comes down to money and nothing will change while racing makes so much of it


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## splashgirl45 (19 July 2021)

marmalade76 said:



			If this is the case, the problem is with the slaughter houses and not the racing industry.
		
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yes agreed, but there is so much money in racing the industry needs to take some responsibility and be proactive to ensure the well being of all racehorses and not just the successful ones....there are too few slaughterhouses and that needs to be addressed by someone so why not the industry!!!!


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## Polos Mum (19 July 2021)

It's wrong that the slaughter house wasn't meeting appropriate standards and that should be fixed asap. 
I would still think a badly managed last few hours is better than being given to any random do-gooder and left to suffer for years. 

greyhound industry is the same but with less money - they used to leave dogs tied to fences to starve to death not worth a bullet. 

Should we all be looking at other ways to prevent the high levels of wastage in the sport.  If money is no object than top quality frozen semen, donor top quality mares eggs and then surrogates should be encourages to really up the quality of what is being breed then more chances of being successful / kept longer term.  Less guesstimates in the outcome from average mares and average stallions. 

I believe most of their career ending issues will be they were too slow not that they travelled them 100's of miles with a broken leg / ruptured tendon etc.


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## fankino04 (19 July 2021)

cauda equina said:



			At the very least I hope this will result in the abattoir either getting its act together or losing its license
		
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Hopefully!! From what I hear this one has a pretty bad reputation since it was sold.


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## TheMule (19 July 2021)

I can only speak from my own experience with this abattoir, I visit there for work (not to take horses to be slaughtered) and have been doing so for over 10 years. 
Every horse day there are several visitors, normally from vet schools, research facilities etc collecting specimens for education and research. We are all allowed in, nothing is hidden and I've never observed anything that has made me question the humane treatment of the horses. 
There is CCTV up permanently, there are at least 2 vets there at all times- 1 checking the horses as they arrive and before they go through to be shot and the other(s) inspecting the carcasses. 
The man that shoots the horses is calm and patient with them- they get a lot of feral ponies through that have never had a head collar on and are understandably head shy so, whilst I have never witnessed it myself, I can see there would be situations where a shot from further away is necessary to avoid undue stress to the animal. The welfare standard for killing horses is much higher than for cows/ sheep/ pigs. The horses are not put in a chute as that is stressful for them but I imagine it would make a direct contact shot easier.

Would I take my own horses there? No. But only because I like mine done at home where there is zero stress, not because I would worry about welfare issues at the abattoir.


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## bonny (19 July 2021)

TheMule said:



			I can only speak from my own experience with this abattoir, I visit there for work (not to take horses to be slaughtered) and have been doing so for over 10 years. 
Every horse day there are several visitors, normally from vet schools, research facilities etc collecting specimens for education and research. We are all allowed in, nothing is hidden and I've never observed anything that has made me question the humane treatment of the horses. 
There is CCTV up permanently, there are at least 2 vets there at all times- 1 checking the horses as they arrive and before they go through to be shot and the other(s) inspecting the carcasses. 
The man that shoots the horses is calm and patient with them- they get a lot of feral ponies through that have never had a head collar on and are understandably head shy so, whilst I have never witnessed it myself, I can see there would be situations where a shot from further away is necessary to avoid undue stress to the animal. The welfare standard for killing horses is much higher than for cows/ sheep/ pigs. The horses are not put in a chute as that is stressful for them but I imagine it would make a direct contact shot easier.

Would I take my own horses there? No. But only because I like mine done at home where there is zero stress, not because I would worry about welfare issues at the abattoir.
		
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You would be no good on a sensationalist panorama programme ! 
I suspect it’s going to be hard watching, any film of animals being killed is partly because we are not used to seeing it and partly because it’s easier just not to think about it.
I hope tonight’s programme doesn’t do any unnecessary harm to an industry that’s already struggling and I suspect it won’t come up with any answers.


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## scruffyponies (19 July 2021)

Obviously the slaugterhouse is at fault, but there are a number of issues which this brings up which I think we could do something about.

There are too few experienced homes for OTTB horses (more so post hunting ban).  Everything possible should be done to encourage and democratise rural equestrian sport to bring more riders to the level where this is credible option for them and the horse.  That means more access and bridlepaths / public gallops.

I'm sure there are changes that could be made in racing to minimise 'wastage', including ending racing of very young horses.  This will cost money, and racing is a huge business, but I think it has to come.  I am against a blanket ban on 'workng' young horses.  A young horse in a light cart for a short distance comes to no harm as part of a gentle education.

The loss of local abbatoirs has been a disaster for horses and small farmers.  There should be one within 50 miles no matter where, even if they have to be publicly subsidised.  It is not acceptable to have to transport stock further than that for slaughter, never mind horses.


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## mariew (19 July 2021)

TheMule said:



			I can only speak from my own experience with this abattoir, I visit there for work (not to take horses to be slaughtered) and have been doing so for over 10 years.
Every horse day there are several visitors, normally from vet schools, research facilities etc collecting specimens for education and research. We are all allowed in, nothing is hidden and I've never observed anything that has made me question the humane treatment of the horses.
There is CCTV up permanently, there are at least 2 vets there at all times- 1 checking the horses as they arrive and before they go through to be shot and the other(s) inspecting the carcasses.
The man that shoots the horses is calm and patient with them- they get a lot of feral ponies through that have never had a head collar on and are understandably head shy so, whilst I have never witnessed it myself, I can see there would be situations where a shot from further away is necessary to avoid undue stress to the animal. The welfare standard for killing horses is much higher than for cows/ sheep/ pigs. The horses are not put in a chute as that is stressful for them but I imagine it would make a direct contact shot easier.

Would I take my own horses there? No. But only because I like mine done at home where there is zero stress, not because I would worry about welfare issues at the abattoir.
		
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It's really nice to hear the other side, not just the side that is against animals being killed. It sounds like a well run abattoir from what you are saying. I also agree that there are far worse fates than a quick death.   I hope the program doesn't do bad damage where this service is still needed.

I guess the contentious issue is travelling the horses a far distance, possibly in pain. I am guessing this comes down to finances sadly and lack of a close abattoir. And overbreeding in the horse world. Better a racehorse with a swift end than a coloured colt left dead in a ditch with its feet tied. (Which wasn't a single occurrence in South Essex)


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## Horse2018 (19 July 2021)

The horse where still alive for 30 minutes after being shot they didn’t shot them correctly and they broke a load of laws on how it’s meant to be done. To be honest there is way to many horses  being breed  for racing industry to terrible stallions and mares with issues the racing industry should be fines for wastage of horses .


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## scruffyponies (19 July 2021)

mariew said:



			Better a racehorse with a swift end than a coloured colt left dead in a ditch with its feet tied. (Which wasn't a single occurrence in South Essex)
		
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If it makes you feel any better, the colt will have died elsewhere, quite possibly naturally.  The feet are tied because the easiest way to 'fly tip' a dead horse (pre-loaded onto your flat bed) is to tie its legs to a tree so it drags off as you drive away.  More likely a case of avoiding disposal costs than deliberate cruelty.


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## Tarragon (19 July 2021)

I think it is going to be over sensationalised and rather selective in what it shows, which is a shame as it looks like some lessons need to be learned and some bad practises exposed and dealt with, which may be lost in a knee-jerk back-lash reaction to the racing industry as a whole.


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## TheMule (19 July 2021)

fankino04 said:



			Hopefully!! From what I hear this one has a pretty bad reputation since it was sold.
		
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It wasn’t sold?


Horse2018 said:



			The horse where still alive for 30 minutes after being shot they didn’t shot them correctly and they broke a load of laws on how it’s meant to be done. To be honest there is way to many horses  being breed  for racing industry to terrible stallions and mares with issues the racing industry should be fines for wastage of horses .
		
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That's not possible- the horses are shot and immediately winched up by their hind legs and their throats are cut to bleed them out. Sorry if that is too graphic, but it's just not possible for a horse to be alive for 30mins after being shot there.


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## Caol Ila (19 July 2021)

Interesting post, Mule. Good counterbalance.

I noticed this in the Guardian write-up of the program: "The programme, titled The Dark Side Of Horse Racing, is based on footage supplied by the animal rights group Animal Aid, which campaigns for an outright ban on horse racing and an end to the slaughter of animals for food."

Given they clearly have an agenda and they provided all the footage, how reliable is it? Could they have slipped in the odd bit from dodgy slaughterhouses in Eastern Europe or wherever? I don't know. BBC should validate and fact check, but they want people to watch their programs instead of Netflix, so I wouldn't count on it.


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## ester (19 July 2021)

As I used to be local/worked with people who used to collect samples from Potters for the vet school they had always had a good, professional reputation. 

The story that came out last year re. the lame mare being left with both Drurys and Potters being involved upset me. I couldn't quite work out why they were going from the somerset site to wiltshire in the first place). 

Personally I think the ££ of the racing industry should ensure PTS and disposal for their horses.


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## scruffyponies (19 July 2021)

ester said:



			Personally I think the ££ of the racing industry should ensure PTS and disposal for their horses.
		
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They can only do that if ALL OTTB are PTS as soon as they are no longer in training.  Surely nobody is arguing that they should not be rehomed / sold where possible?


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## Pearlsasinger (19 July 2021)

scruffyponies said:



			Obviously the slaugterhouse is at fault, but there are a number of issues which this brings up which I think we could do something about.


The loss of local abbatoirs has been a disaster for horses and small farmers.  There should be one within 50 miles no matter where, even if they have to be publicly subsidised.  It is not acceptable to have to transport stock further than that for slaughter, never mind horses.
		
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Absolutely this.

We are very fortunate locally that the family-run slaughterhouse that used to be a thriving well-run business became an Equine Crematorium when it had to close as an abbatoir.


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## ester (19 July 2021)

scruffyponies said:



			They can only do that if ALL OTTB are PTS as soon as they are no longer in training.  Surely nobody is arguing that they should not be rehomed / sold where possible?
		
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I should have been more specific, I'd think there would be a possible way round that.


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## Old school (19 July 2021)

Rabatsa, you are 100% correct. But I believe if you own a horse, give it a dignified end of life.

My husband whose business is slaughtering animals was at a factory where horses were slaughtered. He came home fairly distressed after seeing multiple blue bins filled with hooves that had shoes on. It was the end of the P2P season here. He could not get his head around how many obviously healthy animals were just 'factoried'. Here in ROI people nearly take offence when you suggest humane disposal over the factory. 'What about the €500/€600' they say. To own a horse in training, and simply bin it for whatever reason, is appalling. This practice deserves to be called out. The said factory was run superbly. The lairage bedding was clean and 3 feet deep. Lovely and snug. The staff were extremely experienced and fully licensed and authorised to do their job. It is Joe Bloggs horse owner that is the problem, not the factory. 

Really looking forward to massive changes over the next 30 years in how we treat our animals. It will be difficult to adjust, but it will be worth it. FWIW, am a meat eater....of our own produce.


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## scruffyponies (19 July 2021)

It used to be the case that you would be paid a couple of hundred pounds for a horse at the abbatoir gate.  This led to unscrupulous people 'rehoming' loved pets with the promise of retirement, taking them straight for slaughter.  It also meant that some horses were prematurely euthanased for financial reasons, especially if they were hard to sell (old injuries, behaviour etc).

Now because it costs, and because owners have to face 'the deed' in person, horses are kept beyond use, health and happiness, often in misery, and passed around for years before the inevitable.

Actually I think it used to be better for the horse.  It was certainly better for the horse population.


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## ester (19 July 2021)

Did anyone else see the online response last week to the very successful australian racehorse selling at auction for 10k? (IIRC)


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## tristar (19 July 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			Interesting post, Mule. Good counterbalance.

I noticed this in the Guardian write-up of the program: "The programme, titled The Dark Side Of Horse Racing, is based on footage supplied by the animal rights group Animal Aid, which campaigns for an outright ban on horse racing and an end to the slaughter of animals for food."

Given they clearly have an agenda and they provided all the footage, how reliable is it? Could they have slipped in the odd bit from dodgy slaughterhouses in Eastern Europe or wherever? I don't know. BBC should validate 




ct check, but they want people to watch their programs instead of Netflix, so I wouldn't count on it.
		
Click to expand...

we have already seen dodgy s h in the uk closed and the footage, no need to go abroad

and other first hand reports none horsey, ie halal other animals, we need to sort our own backyard out really, seriously, quickly


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## tristar (19 July 2021)

the race horse fujiyama crest the seventh horse ridden by frankie dettori to win in one day, was sold on, i think for 60,000 then ended up at malvern and frankie bought it to save it from the meatman, home for life

feted and fawned over by millions on the day, soon forgotten rapid spiral into obscurity and a dodgy end, saved at the last minute

even successful horses are not safe


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## fankino04 (19 July 2021)

TheMule said:



			It wasn’t sold?


That's not possible- the horses are shot and immediately winched up by their hind legs and their throats are cut to bleed them out. Sorry if that is too graphic, but it's just not possible for a horse to be alive for 30mins after being shot there.
		
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Sorry I thought there was something at the time everyone was getting upset over the young Welsh ponies going there that potters had said it wasn't theirs anymore and obviously they had always had a good reputation.


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## TPO (19 July 2021)

ester said:



			Did anyone else see the online response last week to the very successful australian racehorse selling at auction for 10k? (IIRC)
		
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No, what was the response? Why did a 10k selling price attract attention?


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## fankino04 (19 July 2021)

I do find myself very conflicted regards horse racing in that I really enjoy it but think the age they are started is wrong, some of the yards don't treat them well (whilst others treat them like royalty) and the wastage is ridiculous. I just have no idea what the answer is, if there were less low end meetings would less get bred or would there be even more wastage? What could you do to ensure that breeders make provisions for the horses after training? After all they probably aren't the owner at that point but it is the number of TBs bred that leads to the wastage....


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## Birker2020 (19 July 2021)

Marigold4 said:



			What about riding them at 18 months?
		
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I know I watched a 2 year old race at Newbury on Saturday morning TV, just happened to flick over to it, they literally had foal tails.  Imagine getting your toddler to run a marathon.

Such a bloody shame, half of them will be knackered by the time they are five or six.


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## tristar (19 July 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I know I watched a 2 year old race at Newbury on Saturday morning TV, just happened to flick over to it, they literally had foal tails.  Imagine getting your toddler to run a marathon.

Such a bloody shame, half of them will be knackered by the time they are five or six.
		
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i`ve seen that, one of images that stuck in my mind


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## tristar (19 July 2021)

fankino04 said:



			I do find myself very conflicted regards horse racing in that I really enjoy it but think the age they are started is wrong, some of the yards don't treat them well (whilst others treat them like royalty) and the wastage is ridiculous. I just have no idea what the answer is, if there were less low end meetings would less get bred or would there be even more wastage? What could you do to ensure that breeders make provisions for the horses after training? After all they probably aren't the owner at that point but it is the number of TBs bred that leads to the wastage....
		
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governing body


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## Crazy_cat_lady (19 July 2021)

Racehorse owners, trainers and the betting industry need to be held to greater account for when the products of their entertainment are too old or not good enough to keep provided their entertainment

More funding should go into creating/ helping retraining centres/ sanctuaries for them. Those who are too mental/unable to be physical repaired should be quietly pts at home.

I know there are decent trainers and owners out there, and I love the retired racehorses fb group, but more should be done to punish those who just discard them when they aren't good enough....

I also think they race too young, and while I watch racing, despite the safety improvements there are still too many fatalities, the number of broken back legs on the flat this jumps season was shocking

Also,  I think there are too many horse in the industry. Look at Aiden O'Briens yard for example - multiple beautifully bred horses are "sacrificed" as pacemakers, leaving them no chance of winning a race, what happens to them then given they have no future at stud? Thrown away? Or is time taken to try and find them new homes? What about the big owners like Gigginstown who have so many horses what happens to them? 

Is Godolphin the only big owner who have set up a retraining programme? More big owners should have to do this.


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## ester (19 July 2021)

TPO said:



			No, what was the response? Why did a 10k selling price attract attention?
		
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Apparently the trainer/owner were getting a lot of negative about it re. the horse had won a lot of money and that it shouldn't be going through auction at all. I will try and find it again. I think someone else had offered a suitable home and it was overlooked to send it to auction instead.


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## honetpot (19 July 2021)

Young TB's out of training are about the only horses in this country that have a clean passport, so fit for humane consumption, anything else goes for rendering. I think its down to economics, perhaps £300 on the hoof( not sure of currant prices) or having to pay for disposal, which really when you think what is paid to produce and keep these young horses is a drop in the ocean. It's been going on for years and for all the PR, that many of these horses are retrained, probably only a small percentage, will be suitable. If there was a will to stop this, the Jockey Club could push for further controls, like the non-breeding,non- racing passport, that it's signed out of the food chain, and had a premium paid for 'home' euthanasia.


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## ycbm (19 July 2021)

I don't have any issue with unwanted horses being put down humanely but I do have big misgivings over an industry that breeds horses by the thousands knowing full well how many will be slaughtered when still young and healthy.  

I think at some point in the future (but not soon)  society will insist that we have no right to treat animals like this if the primary purpose is  to provide entertainment for humans.  

Meanwhile,  I respect how much employment the industry creates,  how much tax it contributes to the economy, how much enjoyment racing brings to a lot of people,  and the fact that the horse themselves might well chose a good short life over having no life at all. 

I would like to find a way to ban transporting horses to abattoirs and require them to be put down singly, away from a production line,  at home or very close to home.
.


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## Goldenstar (19 July 2021)

It’s easy enough to prevent horses coming in from Ireland to be slaughtered ,seeing a shipment of these brought in to store before the price rose was what finished me as a welfare officer I could not face it any more .
You simple make import for slaughter illegal yes it would make things slightly harder paper work wise for the rest of us but now we are out the EU we do that if there’s a will .
Of course then more likely than not the horses will end up on ferries heading to Europe.


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## Carrottom (19 July 2021)

Frumpoon said:



			Travelling a horse 350 miles with a career ending injury is unspeakably cruel
		
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I wonder at the meaning of "career ending" , all my tbs have had injuries that ended their racing careers. None of them has a problem travelling.


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## windand rain (19 July 2021)

I hope the BBC have been scrupulous in getting their own information and not relied on sensationalised footage from a crank organisation that has set out to provide as much doctored and upsetting imagery as they can to shock with semi truths. As mentioned above better a death in a few minutes than years of endless cruelty. Was talking to the knackerman/horse crematorium man and he has been shooting horses since he was 13 and is well passed retirement age and in his almost 60 years has only had to shoot one twice in quick succession. Every horse he and his men have dealt with is dead in seconds. The abattoir operatives are the ones at fault if it is not a quick death. The fault of overbreeding in any horse industry is with the breeders. training too young, and the financial involvement is also responsible.


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## palo1 (19 July 2021)

The whole issue of TB breeding and 'disposal' after racing is very troubling although I have never met anyone working in racing or looking after racehorses that didn't care about their horses and want the best for them.   Owners are those that need to bear the cost of rehab/rehoming and/or humane, local despatch and disposal.   It's not exactly vital to own a racehorse so it doesn't matter if that final cost cuts out a few potential owners in my opinion.  The industry is absolutely dominated by wealthy, multiple-horse owners so there should be a legal accountability for those horses.   There is a real problem too with the availability and sometimes the quality of slaughterhouses here in the Uk which really doesn't help.  We are obsessed with bureaucracy in some ways that overlooks, in reality, what might be a better 'system' of smaller, local slaughterhouses. Our local one tried to make a go of slaughtering horses but was forced to shut down by animal rights activists.   That was not a great day for animal welfare in these parts as the lorry loads of animals just travelled longer then...

At the same time, the BBC hasn't currently got especially high standards for their investigative journalism on some issues; they need to pull in big audiences and I guess since before Martin Bashir lied and connived to make compelling viewing there has been a greater or lesser degree of integrity loss there too.  I will probably watch the programme or possibly not but evidence taken from Animal Aid is never going to be in any way impartial or capable of putting across the big picture reality of racing/racehorses.  Gawd, the Beeb is getting desperate!!


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## Elf On A Shelf (19 July 2021)

I feel this may be long and end up going off track but bear with me. I will of course be happy to answer any and all questions I am able to. Having spent 17 years in the industry as well as my down time with normal horses I see both sides of the fence.

There is a huge difference in welfare standards in racing between Britain and Ireland. They come under separate jurisdictions. Ireland see's it very much as an industry, a job, a way to make a living and a way of life. You breed winners, you train winners, you ride winners, if they don't win then they have little to no value and so many are indeed sent for slaughter there as it is the done thing. In Britain we are a lot softer on our animals and whilst they are still working animals we put a value on them at all stages of their life. 

The video footage is from Animal Aid who want all animals to be turned loose and life the free life. They are dead set against racing and so I can see this program being very biased. I just hope that the BBC bothered to do their own research rather than just give them a platform to shout from. 

The BBC report itself says: "Freedom of information requests revealed that 4,000 former racehorses were slaughtered in Britain and Ireland since the beginning of 2019. Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland."

"Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland." That is the key point here. I do know of a few trainers in Britain who send irreparably broken horses (mind or body) to the hunt kennels or to the slaughterhouse. None that I know of would send a healthy horse that could have another life to it's death. 

From the BBC report it does sound more like it is the slaughterhouses that are the problem by not doing their job properly. I would also like to know how Animal Aid knew that these horses were racehorses. Did they take a microchip scanner to every horse and match it up? Did they get hold of the passports? I highly doubt they all rocked up in a branded truck.

I have no issue with horses being humanly destroyed if there is no future for them. Either through injury or mental issues. There are fates far worse than death and I would far rather these horses had no future suffering because someone took on a horse that was too much for them and ended up dumped in a field, wasting away. Not all injuries can be fixed, not all horses are mentally suitable to find a new career. Racing is taking responsibility for it's rejects. 

A career ending injury could be anything from a tendon injury that will heal but not hold up to the strain of racing again to a broken pelvis that will never heal. Most people would not transport a horse that was not fit to travel. Some would dose them up with drugs to make sure they got there safely. Each persons interpretation of how severe an injury is is different. By rights Gray should not have left the racecourse alive because he did a 100% tear of his SDFT. But because it was only 1 leg and not 2 I took him home to give him a second chance. Don't get me wrong I knew what I was taking on and I knew I could shoot him 6 months later if the injury never healed well enough to be a field ornament. 

Don't quote me on this but I do think a % of bookies takings and race entries are put into the RoR through a roundabout way of donations from the BHA. The amount of money put into veterinary science from racing is also phenominal too. I am not trying to justify it but just think where the latest drugs, equipment and proceedures came from. 

Racing 2yo's. I completely and utterly disagree with this. But because there is too much money involved it will never stop. In this knowledge I would like to see the Juvenile flat season not start until July 1st so they can all be well into their 2yo year and thus less likely to be broken in in Oct/Nov of their yearling year. A few months makes a lot of difference! But then you can say that dressage, jumping, sport horses etc are pushed as youngsters too to do the furturities and loose jumping stuff from foals upwards. In the show ring young horses are too fat and are made that fat to be able to compete so there are evils in every walk of equine life. It's just that none of that is shown on mainstream tv every week and so no one pays it any mind. 

The BBC are focusing on racing because it is in the public eye but what about looking at all of the wild Welsh ponies, the Dartmoor Hill ponies, the New Forest round ups, even the breed sales where the, usually, young colts get sold for £30 to the meat man to be packed in trucks like sardines and shipped off over seas with no food or water before being bumped off at their final destination in a country with far less animal welfare standards than our own. These ponies get turned into dog food and leather items. I have no issue with this but what I do have issue with is how they are transported and how far they have to go before they meet their end. What we need is MORE slaughterhouses in this country and make the carcass viable and worthwhile to sell and ship. 

Yes there are things that go on in racing that most people would cower at and shun but there are also things in the way they keep their own horses that they refuse to look at and turn a blind eye to. Many domestic horses are killed by kindness. They are too fat, they get laminitus, they are kept alive long beyond their years for human satisfaction. There are thousands of lame horses that their owners don't notice/realise/admit are lame but will still rile about racing. 

I do agree that too many horses are being bred but the same could be said of shetlands, welsh, coloured cobs, generic Heinz 52's. Because it is too easy to breed a horse. In racing they do try to restrict numbers by not allowing AI. Everything has to be done naturally (to an extent - the stallions don't get turned out with the mares, they are both lead to the breeding barn and held onto whilst the deed is done). Most studs won't allow close inbreeding at all. There is a problem with using the best mares and stallions in that if they have a conformation default then it doesn't matter they can still run fast and win so they will be used regardless. 

From a human perspective racing offers so many employment opportunities, not just in the yards but the racecourses, the studs, bookies, newspapers, tv channels etc. It is the only fully regulated equine career that looks after you (mostly) and pays properly for the hours you do (mostly). It is very much a way of life rather than a living and not everyone gets on with the job. You take the highs with the lows and you still wake up every day for the love of the horse. 

Racing will always be victimised because it is a world wide activity, it brings people together, it divides them, it gets them talking and most of all it is wide open to the public. 

In September there is a new Racehorse Week where a lot of yards are opening up their doors and everyone is welcome to come and have a look around. Keep an eye on the media as to which yards are opening up on what day and I would urge everyone to take advantage of this opportunity to see what goes on behind the scenes. If you don't like racing or have reservations about it then go along with an open mind and the yard will be happy to answer any of your questions, see for yourself what goes on and whilst it wont change your mind entirely I hope it opens it up a little and settles some of your fears.


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## Gamebird (19 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I feel this may be long and end up going off track but bear with me. I will of course be happy to answer any and all questions I am able to. Having spent 17 years in the industry as well as my down time with normal horses I see both sides of the fence.

There is a huge difference in welfare standards in racing between Britain and Ireland. They come under separate jurisdictions. Ireland see's it very much as an industry, a job, a way to make a living and a way of life. You breed winners, you train winners, you ride winners, if they don't win then they have little to no value and so many are indeed sent for slaughter there as it is the done thing. In Britain we are a lot softer on our animals and whilst they are still working animals we put a value on them at all stages of their life.

The video footage is from Animal Aid who want all animals to be turned loose and life the free life. They are dead set against racing and so I can see this program being very biased. I just hope that the BBC bothered to do their own research rather than just give them a platform to shout from.

The BBC report itself says: "Freedom of information requests revealed that 4,000 former racehorses were slaughtered in Britain and Ireland since the beginning of 2019. Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland."

"Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland." That is the key point here. I do know of a few trainers in Britain who send irreparably broken horses (mind or body) to the hunt kennels or to the slaughterhouse. None that I know of would send a healthy horse that could have another life to it's death.

From the BBC report it does sound more like it is the slaughterhouses that are the problem by not doing their job properly. I would also like to know how Animal Aid knew that these horses were racehorses. Did they take a microchip scanner to every horse and match it up? Did they get hold of the passports? I highly doubt they all rocked up in a branded truck.

I have no issue with horses being humanly destroyed if there is no future for them. Either through injury or mental issues. There are fates far worse than death and I would far rather these horses had no future suffering because someone took on a horse that was too much for them and ended up dumped in a field, wasting away. Not all injuries can be fixed, not all horses are mentally suitable to find a new career. Racing is taking responsibility for it's rejects.

A career ending injury could be anything from a tendon injury that will heal but not hold up to the strain of racing again to a broken pelvis that will never heal. Most people would not transport a horse that was not fit to travel. Some would dose them up with drugs to make sure they got there safely. Each persons interpretation of how severe an injury is is different. By rights Gray should not have left the racecourse alive because he did a 100% tear of his SDFT. But because it was only 1 leg and not 2 I took him home to give him a second chance. Don't get me wrong I knew what I was taking on and I knew I could shoot him 6 months later if the injury never healed well enough to be a field ornament.

Don't quote me on this but I do think a % of bookies takings and race entries are put into the RoR through a roundabout way of donations from the BHA. The amount of money put into veterinary science from racing is also phenominal too. I am not trying to justify it but just think where the latest drugs, equipment and proceedures came from.

Racing 2yo's. I completely and utterly disagree with this. But because there is too much money involved it will never stop. In this knowledge I would like to see the Juvenile flat season not start until July 1st so they can all be well into their 2yo year and thus less likely to be broken in in Oct/Nov of their yearling year. A few months makes a lot of difference! But then you can say that dressage, jumping, sport horses etc are pushed as youngsters too to do the furturities and loose jumping stuff from foals upwards. In the show ring young horses are too fat and are made that fat to be able to compete so there are evils in every walk of equine life. It's just that none of that is shown on mainstream tv every week and so no one pays it any mind.

The BBC are focusing on racing because it is in the public eye but what about looking at all of the wild Welsh ponies, the Dartmoor Hill ponies, the New Forest round ups, even the breed sales where the, usually, young colts get sold for £30 to the meat man to be packed in trucks like sardines and shipped off over seas with no food or water before being bumped off at their final destination in a country with far less animal welfare standards than our own. These ponies get turned into dog food and leather items. I have no issue with this but what I do have issue with is how they are transported and how far they have to go before they meet their end. What we need is MORE slaughterhouses in this country and make the carcass viable and worthwhile to sell and ship.

Yes there are things that go on in racing that most people would cower at and shun but there are also things in the way they keep their own horses that they refuse to look at and turn a blind eye to. Many domestic horses are killed by kindness. They are too fat, they get laminitus, they are kept alive long beyond their years for human satisfaction. There are thousands of lame horses that their owners don't notice/realise/admit are lame but will still rile about racing.

I do agree that too many horses are being bred but the same could be said of shetlands, welsh, coloured cobs, generic Heinz 52's. Because it is too easy to breed a horse. In racing they do try to restrict numbers by not allowing AI. Everything has to be done naturally (to an extent - the stallions don't get turned out with the mares, they are both lead to the breeding barn and held onto whilst the deed is done). Most studs won't allow close inbreeding at all. There is a problem with using the best mares and stallions in that if they have a conformation default then it doesn't matter they can still run fast and win so they will be used regardless.

From a human perspective racing offers so many employment opportunities, not just in the yards but the racecourses, the studs, bookies, newspapers, tv channels etc. It is the only fully regulated equine career that looks after you (mostly) and pays properly for the hours you do (mostly). It is very much a way of life rather than a living and not everyone gets on with the job. You take the highs with the lows and you still wake up every day for the love of the horse.

Racing will always be victimised because it is a world wide activity, it brings people together, it divides them, it gets them talking and most of all it is wide open to the public.

In September there is a new Racehorse Week where a lot of yards are opening up their doors and everyone is welcome to come and have a look around. Keep an eye on the media as to which yards are opening up on what day and I would urge everyone to take advantage of this opportunity to see what goes on behind the scenes. If you don't like racing or have reservations about it then go along with an open mind and the yard will be happy to answer any of your questions, see for yourself what goes on and whilst it wont change your mind entirely I hope it opens it up a little and settles some of your fears.
		
Click to expand...


I agree with an awful lot of this. I do think that ex-racehorses have thankfully gained some value since I wrote this 5 years ago. And the thing that will most improve their welfare is for them to have value. I still know where to go to get a free racehorse, but I am pleased to see trainers doing a tiny bit of extra-curricular work with horses (hacking/hunting/schoolwork) and sending them out of training for £5000, instead of £500. Give these horses a value and you will give them a place in life.

I still stand by my opinion that those that will be poorly suited to another job - whether by dint of temperament, injury or other factors - should be humanely shot at the end of their careers, rather than being mismanaged, misunderstood, poorly treated and passed on again and again.

Article from 5 years ago:

Better Off Dead? – e-Venting


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## TPO (19 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I feel this may be long and end up going off track but bear with me. I will of course be happy to answer any and all questions I am able to. Having spent 17 years in the industry as well as my down time with normal horses I see both sides of the fence.

There is a huge difference in welfare standards in racing between Britain and Ireland. They come under separate jurisdictions. Ireland see's it very much as an industry, a job, a way to make a living and a way of life. You breed winners, you train winners, you ride winners, if they don't win then they have little to no value and so many are indeed sent for slaughter there as it is the done thing. In Britain we are a lot softer on our animals and whilst they are still working animals we put a value on them at all stages of their life.

The video footage is from Animal Aid who want all animals to be turned loose and life the free life. They are dead set against racing and so I can see this program being very biased. I just hope that the BBC bothered to do their own research rather than just give them a platform to shout from.

The BBC report itself says: "Freedom of information requests revealed that 4,000 former racehorses were slaughtered in Britain and Ireland since the beginning of 2019. Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland."

"Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland." That is the key point here. I do know of a few trainers in Britain who send irreparably broken horses (mind or body) to the hunt kennels or to the slaughterhouse. None that I know of would send a healthy horse that could have another life to it's death.

From the BBC report it does sound more like it is the slaughterhouses that are the problem by not doing their job properly. I would also like to know how Animal Aid knew that these horses were racehorses. Did they take a microchip scanner to every horse and match it up? Did they get hold of the passports? I highly doubt they all rocked up in a branded truck.

I have no issue with horses being humanly destroyed if there is no future for them. Either through injury or mental issues. There are fates far worse than death and I would far rather these horses had no future suffering because someone took on a horse that was too much for them and ended up dumped in a field, wasting away. Not all injuries can be fixed, not all horses are mentally suitable to find a new career. Racing is taking responsibility for it's rejects.

A career ending injury could be anything from a tendon injury that will heal but not hold up to the strain of racing again to a broken pelvis that will never heal. Most people would not transport a horse that was not fit to travel. Some would dose them up with drugs to make sure they got there safely. Each persons interpretation of how severe an injury is is different. By rights Gray should not have left the racecourse alive because he did a 100% tear of his SDFT. But because it was only 1 leg and not 2 I took him home to give him a second chance. Don't get me wrong I knew what I was taking on and I knew I could shoot him 6 months later if the injury never healed well enough to be a field ornament.

Don't quote me on this but I do think a % of bookies takings and race entries are put into the RoR through a roundabout way of donations from the BHA. The amount of money put into veterinary science from racing is also phenominal too. I am not trying to justify it but just think where the latest drugs, equipment and proceedures came from.

Racing 2yo's. I completely and utterly disagree with this. But because there is too much money involved it will never stop. In this knowledge I would like to see the Juvenile flat season not start until July 1st so they can all be well into their 2yo year and thus less likely to be broken in in Oct/Nov of their yearling year. A few months makes a lot of difference! But then you can say that dressage, jumping, sport horses etc are pushed as youngsters too to do the furturities and loose jumping stuff from foals upwards. In the show ring young horses are too fat and are made that fat to be able to compete so there are evils in every walk of equine life. It's just that none of that is shown on mainstream tv every week and so no one pays it any mind.

The BBC are focusing on racing because it is in the public eye but what about looking at all of the wild Welsh ponies, the Dartmoor Hill ponies, the New Forest round ups, even the breed sales where the, usually, young colts get sold for £30 to the meat man to be packed in trucks like sardines and shipped off over seas with no food or water before being bumped off at their final destination in a country with far less animal welfare standards than our own. These ponies get turned into dog food and leather items. I have no issue with this but what I do have issue with is how they are transported and how far they have to go before they meet their end. What we need is MORE slaughterhouses in this country and make the carcass viable and worthwhile to sell and ship.

Yes there are things that go on in racing that most people would cower at and shun but there are also things in the way they keep their own horses that they refuse to look at and turn a blind eye to. Many domestic horses are killed by kindness. They are too fat, they get laminitus, they are kept alive long beyond their years for human satisfaction. There are thousands of lame horses that their owners don't notice/realise/admit are lame but will still rile about racing.

I do agree that too many horses are being bred but the same could be said of shetlands, welsh, coloured cobs, generic Heinz 52's. Because it is too easy to breed a horse. In racing they do try to restrict numbers by not allowing AI. Everything has to be done naturally (to an extent - the stallions don't get turned out with the mares, they are both lead to the breeding barn and held onto whilst the deed is done). Most studs won't allow close inbreeding at all. There is a problem with using the best mares and stallions in that if they have a conformation default then it doesn't matter they can still run fast and win so they will be used regardless.

From a human perspective racing offers so many employment opportunities, not just in the yards but the racecourses, the studs, bookies, newspapers, tv channels etc. It is the only fully regulated equine career that looks after you (mostly) and pays properly for the hours you do (mostly). It is very much a way of life rather than a living and not everyone gets on with the job. You take the highs with the lows and you still wake up every day for the love of the horse.

Racing will always be victimised because it is a world wide activity, it brings people together, it divides them, it gets them talking and most of all it is wide open to the public.

In September there is a new Racehorse Week where a lot of yards are opening up their doors and everyone is welcome to come and have a look around. Keep an eye on the media as to which yards are opening up on what day and I would urge everyone to take advantage of this opportunity to see what goes on behind the scenes. If you don't like racing or have reservations about it then go along with an open mind and the yard will be happy to answer any of your questions, see for yourself what goes on and whilst it wont change your mind entirely I hope it opens it up a little and settles some of your fears.
		
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👏👏👏

Very well said Elf


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## Lammy (19 July 2021)

I really hate the deflecting that goes on when people try to justify one type of wrong against another. “We know the racing industry overbreeds but look at the coloured cobs! We know racing 2 year olds isn’t good for them but 4 year old classes exist!”

We know there are other wrongs in the world and they can’t be fixed all at once but using other cruelties to deflect onto is such a bad argument. 

Also there are levels. If there are 4 year old classes then sure there are likely some horses being broken and doing too much at 3 maybe even late 2. 2 year olds racing…broken in at 18 months, some started even earlier. If you can still count a horses age easily in months then it’s far too young to even be thinking about work. 

All racing authorities need to have an overhaul. Every racehorse born needs a pension that goes with it for life. At least it should be enough to cover euthanasia at home. Racehorses should not enter training until at least 3 years old. This should also slow down the breeding as there would be more youngstock in the system for a longer amount of time and less need to replace these so quickly. All trainers and owners should have to sign up with an organisation like the ROR and when the horse leaves racing it should be to stud, the owner, a credited retrainer or rehoming charity, the pension could either then go back to the owner or to the charity. Wetherbys have a new track and trace system so surely this could be monitored. 

Obviously this is idealistic but I don’t see how with all the money racing generates that this couldn’t be set up. It’s about time all horses that retire from racing life have somewhere to go.


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## Lipglosspukka (19 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			The BBC are focusing on racing because it is in the public eye but what about looking at all of the wild Welsh ponies, the Dartmoor Hill ponies, the New Forest round ups, even the breed sales where the, usually, young colts get sold for £30 to the meat man to be packed in trucks like sardines and shipped off over seas with no food or water before being bumped off at their final destination in a country with far less animal welfare standards than our own. .
		
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That absolutely does not happen in the New Forest and hasn't for a long while now. The colts make good money. Far more than any meat man would want to pay.


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## Tiddlypom (19 July 2021)

AnimalAid are weirdos, but we do need people who will risk themselves to put covert cctv into places that may not be following relevant guidelines, especially where animal welfare is concerned.


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## Sussexbythesea (19 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I feel this may be long and end up going off track but bear with me. I will of course be happy to answer any and all questions I am able to. Having spent 17 years in the industry as well as my down time with normal horses I see both sides of the fence.

There is a huge difference in welfare standards in racing between Britain and Ireland. They come under separate jurisdictions. Ireland see's it very much as an industry, a job, a way to make a living and a way of life. You breed winners, you train winners, you ride winners, if they don't win then they have little to no value and so many are indeed sent for slaughter there as it is the done thing. In Britain we are a lot softer on our animals and whilst they are still working animals we put a value on them at all stages of their life.

The video footage is from Animal Aid who want all animals to be turned loose and life the free life. They are dead set against racing and so I can see this program being very biased. I just hope that the BBC bothered to do their own research rather than just give them a platform to shout from.

The BBC report itself says: "Freedom of information requests revealed that 4,000 former racehorses were slaughtered in Britain and Ireland since the beginning of 2019. Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland."

"Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland." That is the key point here. I do know of a few trainers in Britain who send irreparably broken horses (mind or body) to the hunt kennels or to the slaughterhouse. None that I know of would send a healthy horse that could have another life to it's death.

From the BBC report it does sound more like it is the slaughterhouses that are the problem by not doing their job properly. I would also like to know how Animal Aid knew that these horses were racehorses. Did they take a microchip scanner to every horse and match it up? Did they get hold of the passports? I highly doubt they all rocked up in a branded truck.

I have no issue with horses being humanly destroyed if there is no future for them. Either through injury or mental issues. There are fates far worse than death and I would far rather these horses had no future suffering because someone took on a horse that was too much for them and ended up dumped in a field, wasting away. Not all injuries can be fixed, not all horses are mentally suitable to find a new career. Racing is taking responsibility for it's rejects.

A career ending injury could be anything from a tendon injury that will heal but not hold up to the strain of racing again to a broken pelvis that will never heal. Most people would not transport a horse that was not fit to travel. Some would dose them up with drugs to make sure they got there safely. Each persons interpretation of how severe an injury is is different. By rights Gray should not have left the racecourse alive because he did a 100% tear of his SDFT. But because it was only 1 leg and not 2 I took him home to give him a second chance. Don't get me wrong I knew what I was taking on and I knew I could shoot him 6 months later if the injury never healed well enough to be a field ornament.

Don't quote me on this but I do think a % of bookies takings and race entries are put into the RoR through a roundabout way of donations from the BHA. The amount of money put into veterinary science from racing is also phenominal too. I am not trying to justify it but just think where the latest drugs, equipment and proceedures came from.

Racing 2yo's. I completely and utterly disagree with this. But because there is too much money involved it will never stop. In this knowledge I would like to see the Juvenile flat season not start until July 1st so they can all be well into their 2yo year and thus less likely to be broken in in Oct/Nov of their yearling year. A few months makes a lot of difference! But then you can say that dressage, jumping, sport horses etc are pushed as youngsters too to do the furturities and loose jumping stuff from foals upwards. In the show ring young horses are too fat and are made that fat to be able to compete so there are evils in every walk of equine life. It's just that none of that is shown on mainstream tv every week and so no one pays it any mind.

The BBC are focusing on racing because it is in the public eye but what about looking at all of the wild Welsh ponies, the Dartmoor Hill ponies, the New Forest round ups, even the breed sales where the, usually, young colts get sold for £30 to the meat man to be packed in trucks like sardines and shipped off over seas with no food or water before being bumped off at their final destination in a country with far less animal welfare standards than our own. These ponies get turned into dog food and leather items. I have no issue with this but what I do have issue with is how they are transported and how far they have to go before they meet their end. What we need is MORE slaughterhouses in this country and make the carcass viable and worthwhile to sell and ship.

Yes there are things that go on in racing that most people would cower at and shun but there are also things in the way they keep their own horses that they refuse to look at and turn a blind eye to. Many domestic horses are killed by kindness. They are too fat, they get laminitus, they are kept alive long beyond their years for human satisfaction. There are thousands of lame horses that their owners don't notice/realise/admit are lame but will still rile about racing.

I do agree that too many horses are being bred but the same could be said of shetlands, welsh, coloured cobs, generic Heinz 52's. Because it is too easy to breed a horse. In racing they do try to restrict numbers by not allowing AI. Everything has to be done naturally (to an extent - the stallions don't get turned out with the mares, they are both lead to the breeding barn and held onto whilst the deed is done). Most studs won't allow close inbreeding at all. There is a problem with using the best mares and stallions in that if they have a conformation default then it doesn't matter they can still run fast and win so they will be used regardless.

From a human perspective racing offers so many employment opportunities, not just in the yards but the racecourses, the studs, bookies, newspapers, tv channels etc. It is the only fully regulated equine career that looks after you (mostly) and pays properly for the hours you do (mostly). It is very much a way of life rather than a living and not everyone gets on with the job. You take the highs with the lows and you still wake up every day for the love of the horse.

Racing will always be victimised because it is a world wide activity, it brings people together, it divides them, it gets them talking and most of all it is wide open to the public.

In September there is a new Racehorse Week where a lot of yards are opening up their doors and everyone is welcome to come and have a look around. Keep an eye on the media as to which yards are opening up on what day and I would urge everyone to take advantage of this opportunity to see what goes on behind the scenes. If you don't like racing or have reservations about it then go along with an open mind and the yard will be happy to answer any of your questions, see for yourself what goes on and whilst it wont change your mind entirely I hope it opens it up a little and settles some of your fears.
		
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I don’t disagree with much of what you’ve said but none of it really deals with the issue in discussion and there is a lot of “Whataboutery”  and I’ll say “so what?”

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone here disagree that humane destruction isn’t a good option for some provided it is humane. I do find it hard to swallow that any life is not respected and the best done for that life as best we can.

As to the quality of Panorama programmes I’d say the quality of journalism is absolutely rubbish. A recent one on fly-tipping was very inaccurate.  It used examples in Wales to illustrate the Environment Agency failings - they don’t cover Wales anymore NRW does. It also showed how easy it was to get a waste carrier registration using a site that was not the genuine Gov.uk Site. It was a site mimicking the genuine site. There were other inaccuracies also, however the issues raised by the programme were ones that needed raising.


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## TPO (19 July 2021)

Lammy said:



			Obviously this is idealistic but I don’t see how with all the money racing generates that this couldn’t be set up. It’s about time all horses that retire from racing life have somewhere to go.
		
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It wont happen BECAUSE of the money it makes.

To delay them by at least a year I'd a year more expense on "field/stable ornaments" and a years "loss of earnings"

When money talks...

It's the same in america (& parts of europe) with the reining futurities for 2yr old quarter horses. I dont agree with it but I can see why people are motivated to do it because the winning gs are so high.

That's caught on here and people/trainers are starting (& training the big maneuvers like stops) 2yr old and doing yearling "longe" classes.  Theres no notable prize money in the UK it's literally to win points and to be like the "proper" western trainers overseas. So even when there arent big bucks involved it's impossible to reason with people who have no common sense. The same people backing/training/riding their 18mth-24mth olds are the same ones posting about how much they love their horses 🤦🏼‍♀️

Really people are the problem and I dont know how you fix that...


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## TheProdigal (19 July 2021)

I have had several ex-racers over the years (mostly when I was younger, braver and more idealistic) and only one of them was sound in the longer term. The same was experienced by friends of mine - we all had the very best of intentions. The strain on the ligaments, tendons, musculoskeletal system in general (not to mention their brains/their emotions) through intensive training at 2 takes its toll and soon reveals itself. ‘Worse fates than death’ (sometimes) is my mantra.

I have also met racehorse owners at both ends of the spectrum (lower and high end). Sadly, the racehorse is often very much a prestige asset, much like a high performance car. Of course, there will always be exceptions, but it seems to be about ‘the craic’, the fun day out for you and your coterie etc etc.

I will watch Panorama tonight and take a view, but the bottom line is, as many here have suggested, much of the industry and the owners need to start taking responsibility. And if that involves humane destruction, then good! (Too many out there at the moment trying to sell broken OTTBs to make a quick buck).

And final thoughts on RoR. There are obviously some fantastic organisations out there and all power to them, but I know too that there are a few that might possibly be a bit of a tax dodge.


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## ycbm (19 July 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			AnimalAid are weirdos, but we do need people who will risk themselves to put covert cctv into places that may not be following relevant guidelines, especially where animal welfare is concerned.
		
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I think it's high time we had cctv with volunteer monitors who are absolutely neutral using technology to prevent identification of slaughter house staff by anyone who shouldn't know it.  
.


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## coblets (19 July 2021)

Agree with pretty much everything that Elf's written, but what I will say is that there's far too much money in racing, too many job opportunities etc for the horses in the industry to not have a good end. Those young TBs do far too much for the economy to meet the end that some of them do - it's entirely unethical. I'd argue it's even more unethical than sending a dartmoor pony to the same slaughterhouse (mind you, last I heard all the ponies at the recent Chagford sale found good homes). 



Tiddlypom said:



			AnimalAid are weirdos, but we do need people who will risk themselves to put covert cctv into places that may not be following relevant guidelines, especially where animal welfare is concerned.
		
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100%. ABC News have a really good documentary on this with Australian racehorses. They had people going to the slaughterhouses with cameras and microchip scanners so they knew exactly which horses had been sent to slaughter even though, on the database, many of those horses had been put down as retired to a good home.


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## Elf On A Shelf (19 July 2021)

Yes racing does need to put its money where its mouth is and they do put a lot of money into the RoR. What they actually do with it is beyond me but that's a totally different discussion for another day! 

Godolphin have their own rehoming centre and they should be applauded for the work they do for their retired racehorses. More operations should follow suit. Coolmore have just put up a pic of a 30yo retired Broodmare. She is the dam of Giants Causeway along with a good few others that were plenty decent enough on the track. She has got to live out her pensioned days where she has always lived. 

Lipglosspukka - sorry if I offended you by using the New Forest round ups as an example, it's great that they don't go for bin end prices any more but obviously the stigma still sticks. But people are changing that stigma by buying the ponies before the meat men do which is great.


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## meleeka (19 July 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			AnimalAid are weirdos, but we do need people who will risk themselves to put covert cctv into places that may not be following relevant guidelines, especially where animal welfare is concerned.
		
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They may be wierdo’s but if it didn’t go on they wouldn’t have been able to film it .


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## littleshetland (19 July 2021)

A very close member of my family was a racehorse owner.  What he actually KNEW about horses was negligible.  He owned 4 racehorses, all in training and all cost a fortune.  When they showed themselves to be unsuccessful, he picked up a phone, declared he wanted out and god alone knows what happened to them.  The trainer said 'leave it to me' and that was that.  Racehorses tend to be owned by wealthy individuals or syndicates who most don't give a rats arse about what actually happens to the animal once they've lost interest.  The same can be said for greyhounds.  Where there are big bucks to be earned from animal abuse, then basically NO ONE seems to be able to stop it.  All we need from animals, in my opinion, is their forgiveness.


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## Tiddlypom (19 July 2021)

ycbm said:



			I think it's high time we had cctv with volunteer monitors who are absolutely neutral using technology to prevent identification of slaughter house staff by anyone who shouldn't know it. 
.
		
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I hope that whatever tonight's footage shows that faces are blurred out to prevent identification.

Maybe the footage will not be as bad as it is hyped to be, but it's not sounding good.


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## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

Lammy said:



			I really hate the deflecting that goes on when people try to justify one type of wrong against another. “We know the racing industry overbreeds but look at the coloured cobs! We know racing 2 year olds isn’t good for them but 4 year old classes exist!”

We know there are other wrongs in the world and they can’t be fixed all at once but using other cruelties to deflect onto is such a bad argument. 

Also there are levels. If there are 4 year old classes then sure there are likely some horses being broken and doing too much at 3 maybe even late 2. 2 year olds racing…broken in at 18 months, some started even earlier. If you can still count a horses age easily in months then it’s far too young to even be thinking about work. 

All racing authorities need to have an overhaul. Every racehorse born needs a pension that goes with it for life. At least it should be enough to cover euthanasia at home. Racehorses should not enter training until at least 3 years old. This should also slow down the breeding as there would be more youngstock in the system for a longer amount of time and less need to replace these so quickly. All trainers and owners should have to sign up with an organisation like the ROR and when the horse leaves racing it should be to stud, the owner, a credited retrainer or rehoming charity, the pension could either then go back to the owner or to the charity. Wetherbys have a new track and trace system so surely this could be monitored. 

Obviously this is idealistic but I don’t see how with all the money racing generates that this couldn’t be set up. It’s about time all horses that retire from racing life have somewhere to go.
		
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Totally agree about the deflecting. This post is about the racing industry - note industry not sport - and not about the many other issues with horse ownership


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## palo1 (19 July 2021)

I just wanted to add that I bought my nephew shares in a racehorse for a gift this year.  As an 'owner' (well, purchaser!) even in a small syndicate it wouldn't trouble me to have had to pay a 'pension' fee or to pay a proportion more for the share in the horse to help secure it either a healthy period of retirement or to contribute to a genuinely decent end.   That is a system that could be put in place reasonably easily I think.


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## Elf On A Shelf (19 July 2021)

meleeka said:



			They may be wierdo’s but if it didn’t go on they wouldn’t have been able to film it .
		
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They might be total pain in the rear ends but yes they do have their place. If everything ran to code and by the book then they would have no reason to film or fuel for the Flames. But sadly we all know human nature is not always kind and by them being the nosey, intrusive, fire starters that they are we have to face up to our realities and take off our rose tinted specs. Let's hope nothing but good comes out of this - the slaughterhouse staff get fired and replaced with people that will do the job correctly and that racing does indeed think on a pension plan for our warriors.

I do seem to think this is another dig at Gordon Elliott too. He has been singled out and named. One of the horses that went to slaughter he had given to someone else to be their horse, their property. It is when they are sold and are no longer in the care of the trainer that anything can happen and we have no control over it. Same when any horse, cat, dog or budgie is sold.


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## palo1 (19 July 2021)

meleeka said:



			They may be wierdo’s but if it didn’t go on they wouldn’t have been able to film it .
		
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Yes that is fine but there is also an issue of integrity and trustworthiness with these kinds of groups with very specific agendas.  If you cannot trust the basis of that then what they have to say is definately questionable.  I want to see improved animal welfare across the board but the agenda of animal rights activists/marginal groups can be so extreme, with manipulated evidence and appalling levels of due diligence in research,  activities and communications that it does no favours to policy or societal wide change in my opinion.  I don't have much love for our government (!!) at all BUT I do trust those people who have identified animal rights activists as a serious threat.  I don't want the Beeb or anyone else providing a platform for other extremist groups so why would anyone want to give public credence to these people?  I know that there are serious issues of free speech of course and I don't want to suppress that but 'research', 'evidence', 'proof' all need a level of impartiality and professionalism that these groups don't often work to.


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## Sandstone1 (19 July 2021)

Its on BBC news now, I am afraid I wont be watching later as it will upset me too much.    Its just so sad that we breed these animals for our entertainment and this is how we repay them.  I really hate humans sometimes.


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## Old school (19 July 2021)

Sorry to butt in again....But it is good that racing is being put under a spotlight. In ROI, big yards, small yards, mmh yards all chase the €€€. Once that is your God, your actions are influenced outside of any moral code. I know of a massive yard that regularly have a dead one that 'broke down' and pts in the yard as training gallop so deep, another that has a dreadful bend and many go down with pelvis issue, another that really doesn't feed them. I have loads of experience of equines, but not as professional. People become desensitized to what us right and what is wrong. Social media and the commercial aspect has created this vacuum. If it highlighted for voiceless horse and people get burned, so be it.


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## Lipglosspukka (19 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Lipglosspukka - sorry if I offended you by using the New Forest round ups as an example, it's great that they don't go for bin end prices any more but obviously the stigma still sticks. But people are changing that stigma by buying the ponies before the meat men do which is great.
		
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You didn't offend me. It's just important that the information you provided is corrected. 

Amazing work has been done to improve the quality of the New Forest Pony. Stallions used to run out all year round and now just a handful go out for a few weeks. 

People aren't buying the ponies before the meat man does. They are making brilliant prices. He wouldn't have a look in. 

https://www.advertiserandtimes.co.u...SfYvIZy_3PJmb7bhkaN6T3x9ZVWAy3DjAy8w_XDN3CHMk


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## palo1 (19 July 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			Its on BBC news now, I am afraid I wont be watching later as it will upset me too much.    Its just so sad that we breed these animals for our entertainment and this is how we repay them.  I really hate humans sometimes.
		
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I hear what you are saying @Sandstone1 but racing has not just happened - it has evolved as very much part of our and lots of other cultures too.  It's not easy to completely untangle, if we ever could or should, that complex relationship with animals in our culture.  The further we move away from animals the less significance we give them and that isn't great either I don't think.   Not everyone sees racing as entertainment though it is billed as such and for most people (as viewers) it is entertainment but it is also bound up with livelihood, economy, culture and other stuff.   I get how you feel though.


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## littleshetland (19 July 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			Its on BBC news now, I am afraid I wont be watching later as it will upset me too much.    Its just so sad that we breed these animals for our entertainment and this is how we repay them.  I really hate humans sometimes.
		
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We force them into existence, wreck their young bodies, screw up their minds and then we can't even be bothered to despatch them properly when we have no use for them anymore.


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## Tiddlypom (19 July 2021)

Racing is entertainment for the masses.

There are a lot of people who work hard in the industry and who do love their charges, but the horse is a commodity for the betting market.


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## honetpot (19 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Racing will always be victimised because it is a world wide activity, it brings people together, it divides them, it gets them talking and most of all it is wide open to the public.
		
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Although I think you make some good points in your post, saying that racing is victimised when its the largest industry and has the most amount of money invested in it, it is run by an institution which controls just about every aspect of how horses used on the course and who trains them, and makes a lot of money from it, can not really be compared to the over breeding of feral ponies. 

 The race course is the glossy show case, but it is an industry that makes millions off practices that are often not in the best interest of animal welfare. This starts from when they are born, there are are suppliers of foster mares, where mares are put in foal, in the old days her foal would be shot, so she could provide milk for a TB foal, now their foals are often weaned very early and brought up in groups. Some mares their whole reproductive life is having a foal, to have it taken away.

'2-Year-Old: A Colt, Filly or Gelding in its third calendar year of life (which commences January 1 of the year following its birth).'
http://www.registry.jockeyclub.com/registry.cfm?Page=tjcRuleBook#three
 Many horses in training are very young, any morning at the start of the years you will see young horses go out on exercise that in any other situation it would be all over FB and the RSPCA would be called. There is an idea that these horses win more the younger they are put in training, but having seen how they are stabled and having had one off the track this is can not good for their long term mental wellbeing.
  There is an advantage of racing them young, so they can hopefully win enough by the time they are four to come off the track and make money at stud, quick turn over.  

  The Jockey Club has a lot of money and power, but is run by often a very backward thinking elite, and has a lot of control. I have been around most of the stables in Newmarket, from the very small ones, to the ones outside owned by the sheiks, it's a very ring fenced world, and if they wanted to improve horse welfare in general, and promote ethical treatment of TB's at the end of their career in a practical way, they could do so.  Its not like they do not know there is a problem, sometimes yearlings are left at the sales, because its would cost more than the foal is worth to take them home, the JC has a system to remove unwanted horses.
 I am not anti-racing, but the more you know about some of the practices that take place, it does make you question people motives, and attitudes.


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## littleshetland (19 July 2021)

littleshetland said:



			We force them into existence, wreck their young bodies, screw up their minds and then we can't even be bothered to despatch them properly when we have no use for them anymore.
		
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palo1 said:



			I hear what you are saying @Sandstone1 but racing has not just happened - it has evolved as very much part of our and lots of other cultures too.  It's not easy to completely untangle, if we ever could or should, that complex relationship with animals in our culture.  The further we move away from animals the less significance we give them and that isn't great either I don't think.   Not everyone sees racing as entertainment though it is billed as such and for most people (as viewers) it is entertainment but it is also bound up with livelihood, economy, culture and other stuff.   I get how you feel though.
		
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'....livelihood, economy, culture and other stuff....'. I expect people made the same argument for slavery at some point in the past.  I think it's time it stopped now.


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## humblepie (19 July 2021)

The BHA has a huge programme ongoing - have a look on the BHA website horse welfare pages to see the work in progress.


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## palo1 (19 July 2021)

littleshetland said:



			'....livelihood, economy, culture and other stuff....'. I expect people made the same argument for slavery at some point in the past.  I think it's time it stopped now.
		
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I understand that view @littleshetland and I am not saying that racing or animal related activities can't and shouldn't be improved; I was just saying it is not simple.  I don't think that we live in a society where governments or other agencies will jeopardise livelihoods, local and national economics, culture etc in favour of race horses.  I can't see that as practical and there would be no appetite for it within the industry.  I believe that change has to come from within and that external change/overhead changes often result in very poor outcomes but that is just my view.  It is all well and good saying 'I think it's time it stopped now' but do you have a plan for disentangling something that is quite deeply embedded?  Do you know and understand all the factors involved?


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## Cobalt (19 July 2021)

[QUOTE="At the same time, the BBC hasn't currently got especially high standards for their investigative journalism on some issues; they need to pull in big audiences and I guess since before Martin Bashir lied and connived to make compelling viewing there has been a greater or lesser degree of integrity loss there too.  I will probably watch the programme or possibly not but evidence taken from Animal Aid is never going to be in any way impartial or capable of putting across the big picture reality of racing/racehorses.  Gawd, the Beeb is getting desperate!![/QUOTE]

Can't help but agree.  Its interesting how much air promotion time the BBC are giving tonight's programme.  It was mentioned on Radio 4's Today programme at 6.30am, then again throughout the day.  Personally, I don't give much credence to BBC reporting these days especially after the Martin Bashir debacle.  They just sensationalise.


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## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I feel this may be long and end up going off track but bear with me. I will of course be happy to answer any and all questions I am able to. Having spent 17 years in the industry as well as my down time with normal horses I see both sides of the fence.

There is a huge difference in welfare standards in racing between Britain and Ireland. They come under separate jurisdictions. Ireland see's it very much as an industry, a job, a way to make a living and a way of life. You breed winners, you train winners, you ride winners, if they don't win then they have little to no value and so many are indeed sent for slaughter there as it is the done thing. In Britain we are a lot softer on our animals and whilst they are still working animals we put a value on them at all stages of their life. 

The video footage is from Animal Aid who want all animals to be turned loose and life the free life. They are dead set against racing and so I can see this program being very biased. I just hope that the BBC bothered to do their own research rather than just give them a platform to shout from. 

The BBC report itself says: "Freedom of information requests revealed that 4,000 former racehorses were slaughtered in Britain and Ireland since the beginning of 2019. Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland."

"Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland." That is the key point here. I do know of a few trainers in Britain who send irreparably broken horses (mind or body) to the hunt kennels or to the slaughterhouse. None that I know of would send a healthy horse that could have another life to it's death. 

From the BBC report it does sound more like it is the slaughterhouses that are the problem by not doing their job properly. I would also like to know how Animal Aid knew that these horses were racehorses. Did they take a microchip scanner to every horse and match it up? Did they get hold of the passports? I highly doubt they all rocked up in a branded truck.

I have no issue with horses being humanly destroyed if there is no future for them. Either through injury or mental issues. There are fates far worse than death and I would far rather these horses had no future suffering because someone took on a horse that was too much for them and ended up dumped in a field, wasting away. Not all injuries can be fixed, not all horses are mentally suitable to find a new career. Racing is taking responsibility for it's rejects. 

A career ending injury could be anything from a tendon injury that will heal but not hold up to the strain of racing again to a broken pelvis that will never heal. Most people would not transport a horse that was not fit to travel. Some would dose them up with drugs to make sure they got there safely. Each persons interpretation of how severe an injury is is different. By rights Gray should not have left the racecourse alive because he did a 100% tear of his SDFT. But because it was only 1 leg and not 2 I took him home to give him a second chance. Don't get me wrong I knew what I was taking on and I knew I could shoot him 6 months later if the injury never healed well enough to be a field ornament. 

Don't quote me on this but I do think a % of bookies takings and race entries are put into the RoR through a roundabout way of donations from the BHA. The amount of money put into veterinary science from racing is also phenominal too. I am not trying to justify it but just think where the latest drugs, equipment and proceedures came from. 

Racing 2yo's. I completely and utterly disagree with this. But because there is too much money involved it will never stop. In this knowledge I would like to see the Juvenile flat season not start until July 1st so they can all be well into their 2yo year and thus less likely to be broken in in Oct/Nov of their yearling year. A few months makes a lot of difference! But then you can say that dressage, jumping, sport horses etc are pushed as youngsters too to do the furturities and loose jumping stuff from foals upwards. In the show ring young horses are too fat and are made that fat to be able to compete so there are evils in every walk of equine life. It's just that none of that is shown on mainstream tv every week and so no one pays it any mind. 

The BBC are focusing on racing because it is in the public eye but what about looking at all of the wild Welsh ponies, the Dartmoor Hill ponies, the New Forest round ups, even the breed sales where the, usually, young colts get sold for £30 to the meat man to be packed in trucks like sardines and shipped off over seas with no food or water before being bumped off at their final destination in a country with far less animal welfare standards than our own. These ponies get turned into dog food and leather items. I have no issue with this but what I do have issue with is how they are transported and how far they have to go before they meet their end. What we need is MORE slaughterhouses in this country and make the carcass viable and worthwhile to sell and ship. 

Yes there are things that go on in racing that most people would cower at and shun but there are also things in the way they keep their own horses that they refuse to look at and turn a blind eye to. Many domestic horses are killed by kindness. They are too fat, they get laminitus, they are kept alive long beyond their years for human satisfaction. There are thousands of lame horses that their owners don't notice/realise/admit are lame but will still rile about racing. 

I do agree that too many horses are being bred but the same could be said of shetlands, welsh, coloured cobs, generic Heinz 52's. Because it is too easy to breed a horse. In racing they do try to restrict numbers by not allowing AI. Everything has to be done naturally (to an extent - the stallions don't get turned out with the mares, they are both lead to the breeding barn and held onto whilst the deed is done). Most studs won't allow close inbreeding at all. There is a problem with using the best mares and stallions in that if they have a conformation default then it doesn't matter they can still run fast and win so they will be used regardless. 

From a human perspective racing offers so many employment opportunities, not just in the yards but the racecourses, the studs, bookies, newspapers, tv channels etc. It is the only fully regulated equine career that looks after you (mostly) and pays properly for the hours you do (mostly). It is very much a way of life rather than a living and not everyone gets on with the job. You take the highs with the lows and you still wake up every day for the love of the horse. 

Racing will always be victimised because it is a world wide activity, it brings people together, it divides them, it gets them talking and most of all it is wide open to the public. 

In September there is a new Racehorse Week where a lot of yards are opening up their doors and everyone is welcome to come and have a look around. Keep an eye on the media as to which yards are opening up on what day and I would urge everyone to take advantage of this opportunity to see what goes on behind the scenes. If you don't like racing or have reservations about it then go along with an open mind and the yard will be happy to answer any of your questions, see for yourself what goes on and whilst it wont change your mind entirely I hope it opens it up a little and settles some of your fears.
		
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## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I feel this may be long and end up going off track but bear with me. I will of course be happy to answer any and all questions I am able to. Having spent 17 years in the industry as well as my down time with normal horses I see both sides of the fence.

There is a huge difference in welfare standards in racing between Britain and Ireland. They come under separate jurisdictions. Ireland see's it very much as an industry, a job, a way to make a living and a way of life. You breed winners, you train winners, you ride winners, if they don't win then they have little to no value and so many are indeed sent for slaughter there as it is the done thing. In Britain we are a lot softer on our animals and whilst they are still working animals we put a value on them at all stages of their life. 



The video footage is from Animal Aid who want all animals to be turned loose and life the free life. They are dead set against racing and so I can see this program being very biased. I just hope that the BBC bothered to do their own research rather than just give them a platform to shout from. 

The BBC report itself says: "Freedom of information requests revealed that 4,000 former racehorses were slaughtered in Britain and Ireland since the beginning of 2019. Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland."

"Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland." That is the key point here. I do know of a few trainers in Britain who send irreparably broken horses (mind or body) to the hunt kennels or to the slaughterhouse. None that I know of would send a healthy horse that could have another life to it's death. 

From the BBC report it does sound more like it is the slaughterhouses that are the problem by not doing their job properly. I would also like to know how Animal Aid knew that these horses were racehorses. Did they take a microchip scanner to every horse and match it up? Did they get hold of the passports? I highly doubt they all rocked up in a branded truck.

I have no issue with horses being humanly destroyed if there is no future for them. Either through injury or mental issues. There are fates far worse than death and I would far rather these horses had no future suffering because someone took on a horse that was too much for them and ended up dumped in a field, wasting away. Not all injuries can be fixed, not all horses are mentally suitable to find a new career. Racing is taking responsibility for it's rejects. 

A career ending injury could be anything from a tendon injury that will heal but not hold up to the strain of racing again to a broken pelvis that will never heal. Most people would not transport a horse that was not fit to travel. Some would dose them up with drugs to make sure they got there safely. Each persons interpretation of how severe an injury is is different. By rights Gray should not have left the racecourse alive because he did a 100% tear of his SDFT. But because it was only 1 leg and not 2 I took him home to give him a second chance. Don't get me wrong I knew what I was taking on and I knew I could shoot him 6 months later if the injury never healed well enough to be a field ornament. 

Don't quote me on this but I do think a % of bookies takings and race entries are put into the RoR through a roundabout way of donations from the BHA. The amount of money put into veterinary science from racing is also phenominal too. I am not trying to justify it but just think where the latest drugs, equipment and proceedures came from. 

Saying racing two year olds is totally wrong but will never be stopped is pretty defeatist.

Racing 2yo's. I completely and utterly disagree with this. But because there is too much money involved it will never stop. In this knowledge I would like to see the Juvenile flat season not start until July 1st so they can all be well into their 2yo year and thus less likely to be broken in in Oct/Nov of their yearling year. A few months makes a lot of difference! But then you can say that dressage, jumping, sport horses etc are pushed as youngsters too to do the furturities and loose jumping stuff from foals upwards. In the show ring young horses are too fat and are made that fat to be able to compete so there are evils in every walk of equine life. It's just that none of that is shown on mainstream tv every week and so no one pays it any mind. 

The BBC are focusing on racing because it is in the public eye but what about looking at all of the wild Welsh ponies, the Dartmoor Hill ponies, the New Forest round ups, even the breed sales where the, usually, young colts get sold for £30 to the meat man to be packed in trucks like sardines and shipped off over seas with no food or water before being bumped off at their final destination in a country with far less animal welfare standards than our own. These ponies get turned into dog food and leather items. I have no issue with this but what I do have issue with is how they are transported and how far they have to go before they meet their end. What we need is MORE slaughterhouses in this country and make the carcass viable and worthwhile to sell and ship. 

Yes there are things that go on in racing that most people would cower at and shun but there are also things in the way they keep their own horses that they refuse to look at and turn a blind eye to. Many domestic horses are killed by kindness. They are too fat, they get laminitus, they are kept alive long beyond their years for human satisfaction. There are thousands of lame horses that their owners don't notice/realise/admit are lame but will still rile about racing. 

I do agree that too many horses are being bred but the same could be said of shetlands, welsh, coloured cobs, generic Heinz 52's. Because it is too easy to breed a horse. In racing they do try to restrict numbers by not allowing AI. Everything has to be done naturally (to an extent - the stallions don't get turned out with the mares, they are both lead to the breeding barn and held onto whilst the deed is done). Most studs won't allow close inbreeding at all. There is a problem with using the best mares and stallions in that if they have a conformation default then it doesn't matter they can still run fast and win so they will be used regardless. 

From a human perspective racing offers so many employment opportunities, not just in the yards but the racecourses, the studs, bookies, newspapers, tv channels etc. It is the only fully regulated equine career that looks after you (mostly) and pays properly for the hours you do (mostly). It is very much a way of life rather than a living and not everyone gets on with the job. You take the highs with the lows and you still wake up every day for the love of the horse. 

Racing will always be victimised because it is a world wide activity, it brings people together, it divides them, it gets them talking and most of all it is wide open to the public. 

In September there is a new Racehorse Week where a lot of yards are opening up their doors and everyone is welcome to come and have a look around. Keep an eye on the media as to which yards are opening up on what day and I would urge everyone to take advantage of this opportunity to see what goes on behind the scenes. If you don't like racing or have reservations about it then go along with an open mind and the yard will be happy to answer any of your questions, see for yourself what goes on and whilst it wont change your mind entirely I hope it opens it up a little and settles some of your fears.
		
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## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

Sussexbythesea said:



			I don’t disagree with much of what you’ve said but none of it really deals with the issue in discussion and there is a lot of “Whataboutery”  and I’ll say “so what?”

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone here disagree that humane destruction isn’t a good option for some provided it is humane. I do find it hard to swallow that any life is not respected and the best done for that life as best we can.

As to the quality of Panorama programmes I’d say the quality of journalism is absolutely rubbish. A recent one on fly-tipping was very inaccurate.  It used examples in Wales to illustrate the Environment Agency failings - they don’t cover Wales anymore NRW does. It also showed how easy it was to get a waste carrier registration using a site that was not the genuine Gov.uk Site. It was a site mimicking the genuine site. There were other inaccuracies also, however the issues raised by the programme were ones that needed raising.
		
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So all BBC Panorama programmes are rubbish and inaccurate? Over the years, Panorama has done a great job exposing all sorts of injustices - I am very glad I live in a country with a free press.


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## Elf On A Shelf (19 July 2021)

honetpot said:



			Although I think you make some good points in your post, saying that racing is victimised when its the largest industry and has the most amount of money invested in it, it is run by an institution which controls just about every aspect of how horses used on the course and who trains them, and makes a lot of money from it, can not really be compared to the over breeding of feral ponies.

The race course is the glossy show case, but it is an industry that makes millions off practices that are often not in the best interest of animal welfare. This starts from when they are born, there are are suppliers of foster mares, where mares are put in foal, in the old days her foal would be shot, so she could provide milk for a TB foal, now their foals are often weaned very early and brought up in groups. Some mares their whole reproductive life is having a foal, to have it taken away.

'2-Year-Old: A Colt, Filly or Gelding in its third calendar year of life (which commences January 1 of the year following its birth).'
http://www.registry.jockeyclub.com/registry.cfm?Page=tjcRuleBook#three
Many horses in training are very young, any morning at the start of the years you will see young horses go out on exercise that in any other situation it would be all over FB and the RSPCA would be called. There is an idea that these horses win more the younger they are put in training, but having seen how they are stabled and having had one off the track this is can not good for their long term mental wellbeing.
  There is an advantage of racing them young, so they can hopefully win enough by the time they are four to come off the track and make money at stud, quick turn over. 

  The Jockey Club has a lot of money and power, but is run by often a very backward thinking elite, and has a lot of control. I have been around most of the stables in Newmarket, from the very small ones, to the ones outside owned by the sheiks, it's a very ring fenced world, and if they wanted to improve horse welfare in general, and promote ethical treatment of TB's at the end of their career in a practical way, they could do so.  Its not like they do not know there is a problem, sometimes yearlings are left at the sales, because its would cost more than the foal is worth to take them home, the JC has a system to remove unwanted horses.
I am not anti-racing, but the more you know about some of the practices that take place, it does make you question people motives, and attitudes.
		
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I agree there is much more of a welfare problem in flat racing and the training centers because they are old school and will not or can not change their ways. There is nowhere to turn horses out en masse at Newmarket or Middleham and that is sadly taken as the way they do things and that's just that. Smaller yards and yards outwith the training centres take a lot more care of their horses and don't treat it as a factory for the most part. The bloodstock industry has a lot to answer for in the case of surrogate mares, over production of foals and essentially flooding the market with more of the same with very little variation. 

There are parts of racing that I would not wish to be involved in at all and I can only hope that in time these practices that are seen as perfectly normal and acceptable in racing now are turned around and changed. It won't be an over night thing by any stretch of the imagination and money will always rule, as it does in all walks of life. But hopefully step by step, inch by inch we can change things for the better.


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## rara007 (19 July 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Racing is entertainment for the masses.

There are a lot of people who work hard in the industry and who do love their charges, but the horse is a commodity for the betting market.
		
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This 10 times over.


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## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

Old school said:



			Sorry to butt in again....But it is good that racing is being put under a spotlight. In ROI, big yards, small yards, mmh yards all chase the €€€. Once that is your God, your actions are influenced outside of any moral code. I know of a massive yard that regularly have a dead one that 'broke down' and pts in the yard as training gallop so deep, another that has a dreadful bend and many go down with pelvis issue, another that really doesn't feed them. I have loads of experience of equines, but not as professional. People become desensitized to what us right and what is wrong. Social media and the commercial aspect has created this vacuum. If it highlighted for voiceless horse and people get burned, so be it.
		
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I agree - it is dominated by the need to make money and horses, sentient beings though they are, are treated very unfairly. Yes, horse racing employs a lot of people and its 'a way of life' but so does/is the drug trade - both are still morally indefensible.


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## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

rara007 said:



			This 10 times over.
		
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Absolutely - it's all about the money to be made on betting. If we have to have betting on sport, have it on things like football rather than horses - these trusting biddable animals are treated appallingly and have no choice


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## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

littleshetland said:



			We force them into existence, wreck their young bodies, screw up their minds and then we can't even be bothered to despatch them properly when we have no use for them anymore.
		
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Agreed - it is despicable


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## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

littleshetland said:



			'....livelihood, economy, culture and other stuff....'. I expect people made the same argument for slavery at some point in the past.  I think it's time it stopped now.
		
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It really is time to do something drastic about this industry - very soon it will be law that horses are sentient beings - hopefully this will give horses more rights to be treated better


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## Elf On A Shelf (19 July 2021)

Marigold4 said:



			Absolutely - it's all about the money to be made on betting. If we have to have betting on sport, have it on things like football rather than horses - these trusting biddable animals are treated appallingly and have no choice
		
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Have you ever seen a 9.5st person force half a tonne of adrenaline fueled muscle to do anything? 😂😂 if they don't want to do it they ain't doing it! Please do pop into a yard during Racehorse Week and see how the horses are actually treated, you may well be surprised!


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## Sandstone1 (19 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			I hear what you are saying @Sandstone1 but racing has not just happened - it has evolved as very much part of our and lots of other cultures too.  It's not easy to completely untangle, if we ever could or should, that complex relationship with animals in our culture.  The further we move away from animals the less significance we give them and that isn't great either I don't think.   Not everyone sees racing as entertainment though it is billed as such and for most people (as viewers) it is entertainment but it is also bound up with livelihood, economy, culture and other stuff.   I get how you feel though.
		
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A lot of things that are entertainment are also someones livelihood.  That does not mean we have the right to use and abuse these animals then just throw them on the scrap heap.  Greyhound racing is much the same.   use and discard.   We should be ashamed of our selves.


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## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			A lot of things that are entertainment are also someones livelihood.  That does not mean we have the right to use and abuse these animals then just throw them on the scrap heap.  Greyhound racing is much the same.   use and discard.   We should be ashamed of our selves.[/s

Yes, we should be ashamed of ourselves for not saying and doing more to improve this - how can this be allowed to go on in this day and age? We know better.
		
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## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

honetpot said:



			Although I think you make some good points in your post, saying that racing is victimised when its the largest industry and has the most amount of money invested in it, it is run by an institution which controls just about every aspect of how horses used on the course and who trains them, and makes a lot of money from it, can not really be compared to the over breeding of feral ponies. 

 The race course is the glossy show case, but it is an industry that makes millions off practices that are often not in the best interest of animal welfare. This starts from when they are born, there are are suppliers of foster mares, where mares are put in foal, in the old days her foal would be shot, so she could provide milk for a TB foal, now their foals are often weaned very early and brought up in groups. Some mares their whole reproductive life is having a foal, to have it taken away.

'2-Year-Old: A Colt, Filly or Gelding in its third calendar year of life (which commences January 1 of the year following its birth).'
http://www.registry.jockeyclub.com/registry.cfm?Page=tjcRuleBook#three
 Many horses in training are very young, any morning at the start of the years you will see young horses go out on exercise that in any other situation it would be all over FB and the RSPCA would be called. There is an idea that these horses win more the younger they are put in training, but having seen how they are stabled and having had one off the track this is can not good for their long term mental wellbeing.
  There is an advantage of racing them young, so they can hopefully win enough by the time they are four to come off the track and make money at stud, quick turn over.  

  The Jockey Club has a lot of money and power, but is run by often a very backward thinking elite, and has a lot of control. I have been around most of the stables in Newmarket, from the very small ones, to the ones outside owned by the sheiks, it's a very ring fenced world, and if they wanted to improve horse welfare in general, and promote ethical treatment of TB's at the end of their career in a practical way, they could do so.  Its not like they do not know there is a problem, sometimes yearlings are left at the sales, because its would cost more than the foal is worth to take them home, the JC has a system to remove unwanted horses.
 I am not anti-racing, but the more you know about some of the practices that take place, it does make you question people motives, and attitudes.
		
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Thank you contributing a knowledgeable, fact-based and powerful response to that. (OP)


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## honetpot (19 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			I understand that view @littleshetland and I am not saying that racing or animal related activities can't and shouldn't be improved; I was just saying it is not simple.  I don't think that we live in a society where governments or other agencies will jeopardise livelihoods, local and national economics, culture etc in favour of race horses.  I can't see that as practical and there would be no appetite for it within the industry.  I believe that change has to come from within and that external change/overhead changes often result in very poor outcomes but that is just my view.  It is all well and good saying 'I think it's time it stopped now' but do you have a plan for disentangling something that is quite deeply embedded?  Do you know and understand all the factors involved?
		
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 The farm animal industry has government, and industry applied standards, nothing is ever perfect, and they could always be better, and you could not say, we already say,
'we live in a society where governments or other agencies will jeopardise livelihoods, local and national economics, culture'
and that is a bigger industry. Look at the new changes in farming, and the push to eat less meat.
  The racing industry has spent millions on studying horses to make them go faster and be more successful at breeding, it already has a structure that controls the horse from preconception, to when it goes on the track, because that is where the money is, it is less interested in wastage. It has to be made interested. Even dog breed societies who do not have the money and power to enforce rules try and to help.
  The fact MH was a government minister, and also is a local MP for Newmarket can not be ruled out in the lobbying case for racing, to continue. The hospitality industry had to close, and other equestrian sports were restricted and postponed, they also have an economic impact.
  The racing industry has known about these problems for a long time, but while they can gloss over it, they will do, everyone knows everyone else and no one wants to put a vested interest's nose out of joint, unless of course there is more money in it.


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## honetpot (19 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Have you ever seen a 9.5st person force half a tonne of adrenaline fueled muscle to do anything? 😂😂 if they don't want to do it they ain't doing it! Please do pop into a yard during Racehorse Week and see how the horses are actually treated, you may well be surprised!
		
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  It's a bit like showjumping, it's what you do not see you need to worry about. 
  I would recommend anyone to go and have a day at the Newmarket Racing museum, the equestrian art is amazing, and look how racing developed, and who owns what, it explains a lot.
https://www.nhrm.co.uk/discover/


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## palo1 (19 July 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			A lot of things that are entertainment are also someones livelihood.  That does not mean we have the right to use and abuse these animals then just throw them on the scrap heap.  Greyhound racing is much the same.   use and discard.   We should be ashamed of our selves.
		
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Well yes, there is much to be ashamed of in relation to our treatment, attitudes and understanding of animals   That doesn't mean that those things aren't deeply entangled with structures and ways of doing things that would be very difficult to simply eradicate.   Attitude change needs to be systemic though and whilst people earn their livelihoods and base their lives around something, systemic change will be difficult.  It's a bit of a curveball so bear with me but in countries and cultures where animals are NOT used for entertainment, food or economics they don't always fare better according to our cultural standards.  Even where the life of animals is considered absolutely sacred, for example in Jainism where the principle of 'non-injury' is practised quite fundamentally, the lives of animals as we understand them here in the UK are not necessarily 'better'.  It is a difficult subject.  If you had ever visited a Jain animal hospice or sanctuary it would probably cause you to question some of the underlying views you may hold.  It certainly did for me.   But it is difficult and probably unhelpful to try to apply other standards and philosophical viewpoints to this situation where there is a disconnect between what 'outside' viewers want to see and what some parts of the industry find appropriate and acceptable.


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## Frumpoon (19 July 2021)

littleshetland said:



			We force them into existence, wreck their young bodies, screw up their minds and then we can't even be bothered to despatch them properly when we have no use for them anymore.
		
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Absolutely this!

Humans are revolting! We are a disease on the face of the planet and the sooner  we are all killed off the better


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## meleeka (19 July 2021)

1.4m given by the industry towards rehoming racehorses!! That’s a miniscule amount of the money being made in the industry.


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## spotty_pony (19 July 2021)

Just watched it and it made my stomach turn. Absolutely disgusting behaviour - those poor horses!


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## Regandal (19 July 2021)

meleeka said:



			1.4m given by the industry towards rehoming racehorses!! That’s a miniscule amount of the money being made in the industry.
		
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Meanwhile,……..


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## meleeka (19 July 2021)

Did anyone else watch?  It was definitely shocking and did not put Irish racing in a good light. 

*DONT READ THE NEXT BIT IF SQUEAMISH

I do have a question and wonder if anyone knows (i’m obviously not about to google!). Why does the knacker man use a rifle as opposed to a pistol?  It looked an awfully clumsy way to do it (they didn’t show the actual deed, just the build up to it and he was seen holding the rifle one handed).


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## Regandal (19 July 2021)

Granted, that’s from all gambling.


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## TheProdigal (19 July 2021)

honetpot said:



			Although I think you make some good points in your post, saying that racing is victimised when its the largest industry and has the most amount of money invested in it, it is run by an institution which controls just about every aspect of how horses used on the course and who trains them, and makes a lot of money from it, can not really be compared to the over breeding of feral ponies. 

 The race course is the glossy show case, but it is an industry that makes millions off practices that are often not in the best interest of animal welfare. This starts from when they are born, there are are suppliers of foster mares, where mares are put in foal, in the old days her foal would be shot, so she could provide milk for a TB foal, now their foals are often weaned very early and brought up in groups. Some mares their whole reproductive life is having a foal, to have it taken away.

'2-Year-Old: A Colt, Filly or Gelding in its third calendar year of life (which commences January 1 of the year following its birth).'
http://www.registry.jockeyclub.com/registry.cfm?Page=tjcRuleBook#three
 Many horses in training are very young, any morning at the start of the years you will see young horses go out on exercise that in any other situation it would be all over FB and the RSPCA would be called. There is an idea that these horses win more the younger they are put in training, but having seen how they are stabled and having had one off the track this is can not good for their long term mental wellbeing.
  There is an advantage of racing them young, so they can hopefully win enough by the time they are four to come off the track and make money at stud, quick turn over.  

  The Jockey Club has a lot of money and power, but is run by often a very backward thinking elite, and has a lot of control. I have been around most of the stables in Newmarket, from the very small ones, to the ones outside owned by the sheiks, it's a very ring fenced world, and if they wanted to improve horse welfare in general, and promote ethical treatment of TB's at the end of their career in a practical way, they could do so.  Its not like they do not know there is a problem, sometimes yearlings are left at the sales, because its would cost more than the foal is worth to take them home, the JC has a system to remove unwanted horses.
 I am not anti-racing, but the more you know about some of the practices that take place, it does make you question people motives, and attitudes.
		
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## Goldenstar (19 July 2021)

My god the grey he won over 100k someone should have been looking out for him .
Racing can stop this anytime they choose they simply arrange for all horses who run under rules are signed out before they do so.
The chances of these lame racehorses having never had a sachet of Bute are about zero .
Horses within the EU have to be traded under EU rules we however have no obligation to import any live horses for slaughter we should just stop it full stop .


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## TheProdigal (19 July 2021)

That footage of the trussed up OTTB at Moorcroft speaks volumes


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## TheProdigal (19 July 2021)

And why are they featuring coloured horses. Uurgh.


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## Lipglosspukka (19 July 2021)

I do find it baffling that someone can own a horse who wins them in excess of 100k and they don't want to secure that horses' future and give it a happy retirement.


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## spotty_pony (19 July 2021)

That poor mare Kiss me Kate 😞 she was terrified.


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## spotty_pony (19 July 2021)

TheProdigal said:



			And why are they featuring coloured horses. Uurgh.
		
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what's wrong with a coloured horse?!


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## luckyoldme (19 July 2021)

Love how it was shocking news to owners and trainers how the horses ended up.
Anyone at all who has had even the tiniest smallest link to racing knows this goes on .
Every time you hear them talk of how well their horses are cared for you think 'aye right...till the last race' 
None of those people have the balls to own their own actions. All they see is money


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## luckyoldme (19 July 2021)

Lipglosspukka said:



			I do find it baffling that someone can own a horse who wins them in excess of 100k and they don't want to secure that horses' future and give it a happy retirement.
		
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Says quite a lot about a those people


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## palo1 (19 July 2021)

TheProdigal said:



			And why are they featuring coloured horses. Uurgh.
		
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The visuals of horses clearly not TB was a bit of an irritant but it signals a kind of poor quality programme making which is really frustrating.  If Panorama are going to make serious programmes about important issues, they have to get that sort of stuff right. It's an absolute fundamental of successful visual/media communication.   It's not as if there is a shortage of ex race-horses that they could use in the filming.  It doesn't help the programme one bit.


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## meleeka (19 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			The visuals of horses clearly not TB was a bit of an irritant but it signals a kind of poor quality programme making which is really frustrating.  If Panorama are going to make serious programmes about important issues, they have to get that sort of stuff right. It's an absolute fundamental of successful visual/media communication.   It's not as if there is a shortage of ex race-horses that they could use in the filming.  It doesn't help the programme one bit. 

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I’m sure the general public wouldn’t have even picked in on the fact they weren’t ex-racehorses.  It doesn’t alter the message of the programme.


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## Zuzan (19 July 2021)

I thought it was pretty balanced... I just find it very sad that we can't have horse sport without a "darkside" .. why oh why can't people act ethically and consideratly of horses .. whether it's in the training / insistence on competing too young horses or human dispatch of horses that cannot be rehomed / rehabilitated .. There are times I just feel ashamed of being a horsewoman.

It beggars belief that the racing / horse sport industry will not acknowledge and properly address it's failings in a world that is rightly far more questioning of welfare aspects and in our knowledge of sentience of other animals.


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## Goldenstar (19 July 2021)

I think you will get 300 for a horse that can go into the food chain .
Less the bar bill will be when the horse won a race .


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## Zuzan (19 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			Well yes, there is much to be ashamed of in relation to our treatment, attitudes and understanding of animals   That doesn't mean that those things aren't deeply entangled with structures and ways of doing things that would be very difficult to simply eradicate.   Attitude change needs to be systemic though and whilst people earn their livelihoods and base their lives around something, systemic change will be difficult.  It's a bit of a curveball so bear with me but in countries and cultures where animals are NOT used for entertainment, food or economics they don't always fare better according to our cultural standards.  Even where the life of animals is considered absolutely sacred, for example in Jainism where the principle of 'non-injury' is practised quite fundamentally, the lives of animals as we understand them here in the UK are not necessarily 'better'.  It is a difficult subject.  If you had ever visited a Jain animal hospice or sanctuary it would probably cause you to question some of the underlying views you may hold.  It certainly did for me.   But it is difficult and probably unhelpful to try to apply other standards and philosophical viewpoints to this situation where there is a disconnect between what 'outside' viewers want to see and what some parts of the industry find appropriate and acceptable.
		
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What gets me is the denial and the trying to sweep stuff under the proverbial carpet .. fudging etc ..   Reform isn't easy but that doesn't mean it shouldn't tackled..


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## TheProdigal (19 July 2021)

TheProdigal said:



			And why are they featuring coloured horses. Uurgh.
		
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See Palo1’s post.


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## palo1 (19 July 2021)

meleeka said:



			I’m sure the general public wouldn’t have even picked in on the fact they weren’t ex-racehorses.  It doesn’t alter the message of the programme.
		
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Yes, you are right - an awful lot of people wouldn't even think about the colour of the horses in the programme BUT those people who need to take this seriously in order to push for change, i.e the racing industry will notice and will think that the quality of research etc is laughable because of these silly, cheap errors.  It is about credibility for an informed audience and that does matter in terms of impact.


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## palo1 (19 July 2021)

Zuzan said:



			What gets me is the denial and the trying to sweep stuff under the proverbial carpet .. fudging etc ..   Reform isn't easy but that doesn't mean it shouldn't tackled..
		
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Yes.  That is hard to stomach, especially in view of the sums of money and the amount of large agencies involved in racing.


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## olop (19 July 2021)

The guys that owned that grey horse are prolific owners in the jump racing game, I’m pretty sure they didn’t know there horse had ended up there.

Its a bit like an everyday owner selling there horse to someone who promises the horse a home for life, once changed hands you have no control over where that horse ends up unfortunately.

What I don’t get is why they don’t have them euthanised at home if they are unsuitable for rehoming, I take it it’s a money thing?


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## Abby-Lou (19 July 2021)

Sadly I rather see a horse slaughtered than be suffering in pain out to grass or put an inexperienced horse owner in danger. What I didn't like was two horses been dispatched in same room. I couldn't make a judgment of shooting from a distance, as I did not see the animal shot, but if you think how some animals are killed in the wild ie Deer they are shot from a distance and they fall cleanly and quickly, so I hope this is the same for the horses.  Greyhound racing is another industry which has a dark side after the career is over.


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## Elf On A Shelf (19 July 2021)

Regardless of what the program actually contained even just the talk of it is ripping through racing like wildfire. I doubt you will find a racehorse sent to slaughter straight from a racing yard for a while now! The yards that do do this are going to have to be very careful about what they do with their horses now and this will be a good thing. It will hopefully bring those with less morals into line with those of us who do care for the entire future of our horses. 

As has been said once sold out of racing we have no further control of the horses and their new owners can do what they please with them.


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## spotty_pony (19 July 2021)

Abby-Lou said:



			Sadly I rather see a horse slaughtered than be suffering in pain out to grass or put an inexperienced horse owner in danger. What I didn't like was two horses been dispatched in same room. I couldn't make a judgment of shooting from a distance, as I did not see the animal shot, but if you think how some animals are killed in the wild ie Deer they are shot from a distance and they fall cleanly and quickly, so I hope this is the same for the horses.  Greyhound racing is another industry which has a dark side after the career is over.
		
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Still no need for the suffering these horses had to go through at the end - I am all for pts of horses if it is on humane grounds, but it should be done the decent way at home.


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## milliepops (19 July 2021)

meleeka said:



			Did anyone else watch?  It was definitely shocking and did not put Irish racing in a good light. 

*DONT READ THE NEXT BIT IF SQUEAMISH

I do have a question and wonder if anyone knows (i’m obviously not about to google!). Why does the knacker man use a rifle as opposed to a pistol?  It looked an awfully clumsy way to do it (they didn’t show the actual deed, just the build up to it and he was seen holding the rifle one handed).
		
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Maybe because we don't have any handguns in this country. I agree its very unwieldy.


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## meleeka (19 July 2021)

spotty_pony said:



			Still no need for the suffering these horses had to go through at the end - I am all for pts of horses if it is on humane grounds, but it should be done the decent way at home.
		
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The one non weight bearing was reported to have been like that for a week.


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## spotty_pony (19 July 2021)

meleeka said:



			The one non weight bearing was reported to have been like that for a week. 

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I know and had travelled all the way from Ireland like that! 😔


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## Zuzan (19 July 2021)

milliepops said:



			Maybe because we don't have any handguns in this country. I agree its very unwieldy.
		
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There is such a thing as a Captive Bolt Gun Pistol but this requires pithing https://www.hsa.org.uk/methods/captive-bolt-stunning

But there is also a pistol that can be used legally https://www.hsa.org.uk/methods/free-bullet-firearms


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## paddi22 (19 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Regardless of what the program actually contained even just the talk of it is ripping through racing like wildfire. I doubt you will find a racehorse sent to slaughter straight from a racing yard for a while now! The yards that do do this are going to have to be very careful about what they do with their horses now and this will be a good thing. It will hopefully bring those with less morals into line with those of us who do care for the entire future of our horses.

As has been said once sold out of racing we have no further control of the horses and their new owners can do what they please with them.
		
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I think this is an excuse used by an industry not honest enough to face up to the reality. Why do those horses magically end up there? and no-one in the racing industry thinks that having system that messes them up physically and psychologically at an immature age is to blame?

Everyone who works in racing is complicit. Friends of mine are grooms who adore the horses they work with. But at the end of the day the caring is what they are paid to do. and it's wages coming from an industry where they know horses are worked too young and too hard. so they are complicit in it too.


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## Abby-Lou (19 July 2021)

spotty_pony said:



			Still no need for the suffering these horses had to go through at the end - I am all for pts of horses if it is on humane grounds, but it should be done the decent way at home.
		
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I agree would be better without travel involved, but then we they have to consider the end product meat and that would not travel well long distance.


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## Tiddlypom (19 July 2021)

Abby-Lou said:



			I agree would be better without travel involved, but then we they have to consider the end product meat and that would not travel well long distance.
		
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New Zealand lamb is readily available in UK supermarkets?

'Travel meat on the hook, not the hoof'


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## Zuzan (19 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			.................  As has been said once sold out of racing we have no further control of the horses and their new owners can do what they please with them.
		
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And this is where decent welfare legislation that is actually up the the task come in.. a horse being sold shouldn't mean that it is put at risk of compromised welfare .. whether it's being sold from a private owner or out off the horse sport industry.


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## paddi22 (19 July 2021)

and every horse should be developed and trained with the best chance of giving them a life after racing. I just get so furious with the 'racing industry loves horses' line, because it's totally BS. We get horses through to retrain and every single one has serious pelvic issues, back issues, ulcer issues, foot issues.   the latest one in is 2 and half. totally fried, massive ulcer issues, windsucks off anything. that horse hasn't a chance of a pain free life or rehoming. 

there is a PR push now to look like they are rehoming them, but it's a drop in the ocean. it needs systematic change. less horses bred,  more time to develop physically, more welfare-based training and upkeep, and a workable, wide scale humane plan of action for after they finish their careers that is fully  transparent.


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## ester (19 July 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			New Zealand lamb is readily available in UK supermarkets?

'Travel meat on the hook, not the hoof'
		
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Cheaper to travel it live, no refrigeration.


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## Tiddlypom (19 July 2021)

paddi22 said:



			there is a PR push now to look like they are rehoming them,
		
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This. It's pure PR from the industry to try and fool the public that they actually care about these horses once they are no longer useful.


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## Marigold4 (19 July 2021)

Abby-Lou said:



			I agree would be better without travel involved, but then we they have to consider the end product meat and that would not travel well long distance.
		
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You're kidding, right? So it's ok to travel a horse on three legs from Ireland so that the meat is fresher??


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## palo1 (19 July 2021)

paddi22 said:



			and every horse should be developed and trained with the best chance of giving them a life after racing. I just get so furious with the 'racing industry loves horses' line, because it's totally BS. We get horses through to retrain and every single one has serious pelvic issues, back issues, ulcer issues, foot issues.   the latest one in is 2 and half. totally fried, massive ulcer issues, windsucks off anything. that horse hasn't a chance of a pain free life or rehoming.

there is a PR push now to look like they are rehoming them, but it's a drop in the ocean. it needs systematic change. less horses bred,  more time to develop physically, more welfare-based training and upkeep, and a workable, wide scale humane plan of action for after they finish their careers that is fully  transparent.
		
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Yes.  Racing could be so different, so much better.  I didn't really rate the programme making tbh and there was a great deal of significant information missing that would have been usefully included.  The content seemed cheap and pretty poor quality to me but very serious issues raised.

As a side note, a personal one; it is so galling to be the kind of owner fretting over minor concerns around horse health and happiness and like many people spending a very significant proportion of disposable income on horse welfare and know that the 'big guns'  of equestrianism, with the most money, the greatest economic power, the most popular coverage and a very long and illustrious history are doing so much less....I am very sad to hear that you are dealing with such young horses, who should have had the very best of care have had less than that.


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## Lammy (19 July 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			This. It's pure PR from the industry to try and fool the public that they actually care about these horses once they are no longer useful.
		
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Yes I too have noticed the PR push, especially since the George Elliot thing. So much blabbing about how well the horses are looked after and how much they’re cared for. I believe it but I believe that care and attention stops pretty quickly after their last race for a lot of owners and trainers. 

The racehorse week is just another arm of that. None of the questionable yards will be opening theirs doors (and I have seen a couple!) and there will certainly be no mention of where their precious horses go once they’re done with. But it’s all PR just so they can show people how ‘lucky” racehorses are and it’s only a rare occasion that a horse dies in work and is sat on and treated as a commodity.


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## Goldenstar (19 July 2021)

We have no culture of eating horse meat in the UK there is no need for horses to be coming in here for slaughter .
Let the Irish slaughter horses in Ireland if they wish to have a trade in meat for human consumption and export to the rest of the EU on the hook .
Anyone who thinks that the current regulations prevents horses stuffed with drugs getting into the food chain is naive in the extreme .


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## ester (19 July 2021)

Marigold4 said:



			You're kidding, right? So it's ok to travel a horse on three legs from Ireland so that the meat is fresher??
		
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Just to add that stressed animals don't make good meat, it tends to spoil more quickly. - standard for red meat in a vacuum pack chilled is 3 months. But you have to travel it refrigerated which costs so it depends what the bottom line is.


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## Michen (19 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Have you ever seen a 9.5st person force half a tonne of adrenaline fueled muscle to do anything? 😂😂 if they don't want to do it they ain't doing it! Please do pop into a yard during Racehorse Week and see how the horses are actually treated, you may well be surprised!
		
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I actually really disagree with this. We can "force" them to do things in other ways, e.g through breaking them mentally. Just because the horse isn't physically argueing back and saying no does not mean we aren't forcing horses to comply through relentless training, routine, feed, whatever. That goes for many horse related things not just racing.

The age old "you can't force a horse to do anything look how big they are" is a load of rubbish. There is such thing as mental abuse...


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## paddi22 (19 July 2021)

I would love a racing groom to come on and explain how well they are treated? I know top yards where the horses get no regular physio despite being worked intensively, they are just worked through with issues and a lot breakdown before they even leave training. you just look at them physically from a physio point of view and their bodies are damaged and this includes top horses racing in Cheltenham. You look at them and they have serious muscle issues, pelvic issues, ulcer issues, and these are top horses. The poor grooms end up having to learn physio stuff just to give the horses some come comfort through massage and stretches. The majority we get in have shocking teeth that have never been done. Their diet and the way they are kept promotes ulcers and vices. You see back issues from saddles being used on them that clearly didn't fit.  I just can't see where the care mentioned is? they look shiny and their beds are nice, but is that enough?

If I worked in a nursery with kids, I wouldn't slap myself on the back for being kind to kids and caring for them, that's just the job. If I was putting heavy backpacks on tiny kids or working them beyond their physical ability causing growth issues in them all, then I'd seriously have to take a look at reality and the overall picture. I think racing suffers from the same sheen of glamour and tradition that hunting does and people explain away a lot of sins.


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## shortstuff99 (19 July 2021)

There are a lot of posts on FB right now stating the whole BBC programme is 'lies'. This to me is a bad way to go about defending the industry. The horses have somehow ended up there, people can see that. To claim it is all just the slaughterhouse is disingenuous, and makes the public trust the sport even less. Far better surely to talk about how changes are going to be made, how retiring will be different, how training will be different?


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## Goldenstar (19 July 2021)

olop said:



			The guys that owned that grey horse are prolific owners in the jump racing game, I’m pretty sure they didn’t know there horse had ended up there.

Its a bit like an everyday owner selling there horse to someone who promises the horse a home for life, once changed hands you have no control over where that horse ends up unfortunately.

What I don’t get is why they don’t have them euthanised at home if they are unsuitable for rehoming, I take it it’s a money thing?
		
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I am sure you are right they did not know where the horse ended up but they ought to have done .


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## rascal (19 July 2021)

rabatsa said:



			There are a lot worse ends for a horse than a clean death.
		
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 Most of those sadly were NOT a clean death, being shot from a distance, most within sight of other horses. Some very lame who  had travelled from Ireland to England.


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## Elf On A Shelf (19 July 2021)

paddi22 said:



			I would love a racing groom to come on and explain how well they are treated?
		
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*waves* Hi...

I know not all yards are the same but our horses are turned out for a minimum of an hour a day, every day no matter the weather. Every single horse has the physio once a month regardless, more often if needed. All have their teeth done every year. Our vet is in every Tuesday regardless so will knock any problems on the head, he will come in as and when we call as well any other day of the week. Our farriers are some of the best I'm Scotland and are in 3 days a week , Mon, Wed & Fri.

As to saddle fit - we use exercise saddles that are generically designed to fit most tb's ie they arent wide fit. Each work rider has their own tack not each horse. Some saddles are worse than others I will agree and some riders do their horses no favours but that is the same in all walks of life.

Our horses are fed hard feed 4x a day and haylage 3x. We can't feed them ad-lib as obviously they would just be fat little piggies and would have to work 10x as hard to lose it. We do train some horses from the field. All horses get turned out in big groups for their summer holidays with their own gender. Out 24/7 to be horses.

I know not all yards do this, some can't. I also know there are things we can improve on but at the same time I know we are one of the best yards for welfare standards in the country.

Oh and we also have a water treadmill, vibe plate thingy, 2 solariums and plenty of very knowledgeable staff.


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## paddi22 (19 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I know not all yards do this, some can't. I also know there are things we can improve on but at the same time I know we are one of the best yards for welfare standards in the country.
		
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I honestly wish more yards were like yours and you obviously care about your horses. but even at the high level of care your yard does, if that was translated to a regular horse owner here they would be slated. If I came on and said I broke my horse as a baby, did intensive work at 2, didn't get a saddle fitted. did an hours turnout. mass fed cereal instead of forage, I'd be slated!

so even at a High end yard you still have massive physical and feeding issues? you can't think breaking them that young is good? you can't think pumping cereals instead of the trickle feed forage they are designed for is good? you can't think pushing them that hard in training so young is good? I think there is an awful lot of blind eyes being turned to serious issues. I don't mean to be attacking you because I always enjoy your posts and I appreciate you coming on in the debate as someone who is in the industry. I think it's more a theoretical debate about how someone who obviously loves horses can overlook those issues?


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## TPO (19 July 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			makes the public trust the sport even less.
		
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Does anyone honestly think that this programme will make any difference to the general public, people who bet and people who like a day out at the races?

To make racing, or any industry, change they need to be hit where it hurts. I cant imagine this programme, or any subsequent reporting based on previous welfare reports, making the slightest bit of difference to the public.

The majority of horse people will be aware of the damage that racing does to horses and the less than ideal way that a lot of performance horses are kept (feather haired woman thread anyone?). No "horse lover" is going to say that they are anything less than a good owner but without doing "whataboutery" there is a lot of ignorance/neglect in the leisure industry. These same people are all over FB right now calling out racing while keeping their own horse who are in pain, obese, sore from ill fitting tack and carrying too heavy a rider.

It's not about what is worse, in an ideal world there would be no bad when it came to animal keeping. 

Yes the racing industry has masses of scope for improvement. I could never understand why riding 2yr olds is ok let alone competing them. 

Animal keeping from small pets to zoos all have bad but on the whole the general hoi poilli just don't care. Sure they are outraged for 5mins on social media but then nadda 

Hopefully improvements are made in racing and more focus is put on what happens after racing but I just dont think that any programme or report will bring about any pressure from your average racing fan/race goer

Rightly or wrongly the money from racing is why our pets can get certain treatments and procedures. Racing money pays for a lot of research and "firsts"

Personally I'd be happy to see it banned and not have any horse subjected to the damage and risks. It's the edge of s rabbit hole; collection, surfaces, fixed fences, tack, riders, metal in sensitive mouths, fixed metal shoes nailed onto dynamic structures through sensitive tissue. Where's the line if we are really honest about what we subject horses to for our pleasure?


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## rascal (19 July 2021)

cauda equina said:



			I don't know about horses but
https://www.animalaid.org.uk/slaughterhouse-illegality-cruelty-exposed/

and a worker was killed in 2013
It doesn't sound the best run place
		
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The way those guns were being waved around, really not surprised.


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## littleshetland (19 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			I understand that view @littleshetland and I am not saying that racing or animal related activities can't and shouldn't be improved; I was just saying it is not simple.  I don't think that we live in a society where governments or other agencies will jeopardise livelihoods, local and national economics, culture etc in favour of race horses.  I can't see that as practical and there would be no appetite for it within the industry.  I believe that change has to come from within and that external change/overhead changes often result in very poor outcomes but that is just my view.  It is all well and good saying 'I think it's time it stopped now' but do you have a plan for disentangling something that is quite deeply embedded?  Do you know and understand all the factors involved?
		
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 Im sure dismantling the racing industry and making all the people therein redundant would be a seismic undertaking and far beyond my planning skills....so no, I have no plan for untangling this deeply embedded circus of cruelty for profit, but I very much welcome any media coverage that may start some sort of ball rolling.  Your quite right about the change coming from within the industry itself but in order for this to happen it would mean a major fundamental shift in peoples consciousness and how these animals are perceived. Would it be possible for people whose livelihoods and fortunes are made by these creatures to suddenly view them as sentient beings, deserving of our greatest respect and care even when they're not earning the bucks?  No, thats not going to happen now, but I do believe it is possible and I live in hope although realistically I'm sure theses changes won't happen in our lifetimes, but if it's possible to sow the seed of change now, then I welcome that.  The more something is deeply embedded, culturally, the more it should be thoroughly scrutinised and examined. Aboloshing slavery, toppling statues, women's rights, civil rights...you get the picture.  All these huge historical changes have to start somewhere. And with regard to animals, in the light of scientific discovery, It seems not a day goes past without new scientific evidence pointing toward new discoveries of animal intelligence and emotional intelligence exceeding our expectations.   We have the power to change things, no matter how many factors involved, if the will is there it will happen eventually.  'I think its time it stopped now' .....if only it would.


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## Caol Ila (20 July 2021)

The racing industry could do things better, but do you guys seriously think "dismantling the racing industry" wouldn't have a knock-on effect to the leisure horse industry? We're all great owners, obviously, and it's not like we're forcing our horses to live unnatural lives, carry our fat arses, wear tack, jump over solid objects, suffer metal things in their mouths....Oh, wait....

Except for that dude up in Moray, who was letting his Highlands run wild and breed as they wished. It wasn't like WHW got involved....Oh, wait.

Be careful what you wish for if PETA had their way. But it won't be in our lifetimes.


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## celeste-izzy (20 July 2021)

I've not watched it, nor do I intend too. However, the majority of trainers and grooms really care for these horses. It's the owners who decide to send them to auction, not the trainers.
I think these owners need to take responsibility for where their horses may end up. I also think we should have an abattoir designed for horses only in the UK. There are some very good knacker men, and some very good smaller abattoirs. But what makes them so good is their understanding of the animal in which they process. 
I'm unsure if this has been filmed in the UK or Ireland, but as far as I was aware it is illegal to transport horses for slaughter from the UK. Please correct me if I am wrong. 
This sadly doesn't just happen in the racing industry. I know of a well known breeder in Europe who would assess young stock from point of birth to 3yo, anything which wasnt good enough is sold into the meat industry.


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## Elf On A Shelf (20 July 2021)

paddi22 said:



			I honestly wish more yards were like yours and you obviously care about your horses. but even at the high level of care your yard does, if that was translated to a regular horse owner here they would be slated. If I came on and said I broke my horse as a baby, did intensive work at 2, didn't get a saddle fitted. did an hours turnout. mass fed cereal instead of forage, I'd be slated!

so even at a High end yard you still have massive physical and feeding issues? you can't think breaking them that young is good? you can't think pumping cereals instead of the trickle feed forage they are designed for is good? you can't think pushing them that hard in training so young is good? I think there is an awful lot of blind eyes being turned to serious issues. I don't mean to be attacking you because I always enjoy your posts and I appreciate you coming on in the debate as someone who is in the industry. I think it's more a theoretical debate about how someone who obviously loves horses can overlook those issues?
		
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I don't agree with them being broken in so young. I really don't. I personally would not run a horse before it was 4yo and thus wouldn't break it until 3yo or even early 4yo. But sadly people have no patience any more to wait for the horses. I hate juvenile flat racing. It is completely wrong imo. What we do with these horses is make their lives as good as possible for the situation they have been put in. I know I would far rather be one of our racehorses than someone's horse who is kept in a stable 24/7 and only ever ridden in a school with 4 walls. There are parts of our training regime I do not like nor agree with but the same could be said for all walks of life. 

The feeding situation in racing isn't a great one as yes it does induce ulcers. Ours are also fed a good double handful of Alfa A with each feed 4x a day and 6kg of hay 3x a day. Most of our horses will munch most of it when they get it but save a little for later after they have worked. They are clever I'm that respect. They have adapted. 

At the end of the day you need to weigh up the consequences of what you do and how you deal with it. I know people don't like comparisons between racing and other equine sports but in reality it's people normal pet horses that probably suffer the most but they won't want to hear that because they believe they are doing the very best for their animal and they can't possibly do anything wrong.


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## coblets (20 July 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			The racing industry could do things better, but do you guys seriously think "dismantling the racing industry" wouldn't have a knock-on effect to the leisure horse industry? We're all great owners, obviously, and it's not like we're forcing our horses to live unnatural lives, carry our fat arses, wear tack, jump over solid objects, suffer metal things in their mouths....Oh, wait....

Except for that dude up in Moray, who was letting his Highlands run wild and breed as they wished. It wasn't like WHW got involved....Oh, wait.

Be careful what you wish for if PETA had their way. But it won't be in our lifetimes.
		
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The good news is that, even if they someone got rid of racing in the West, they'd surely still have to get rid of polo at least before leisure riders started being the ones attacked.


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## Marigold4 (20 July 2021)

Michen said:



			I actually really disagree with this. We can "force" them to do things in other ways, e.g through breaking them mentally. Just because the horse isn't physically argueing back and saying no does not mean we aren't forcing horses to comply through relentless training, routine, feed, whatever. That goes for many horse related things not just racing.

The age old "you can't force a horse to do anything look how big they are" is a load of rubbish. There is such thing as mental abuse...
		
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Totally agree. We have bred them and conditioned them to be obedient and it is so wrong to take advantage of their compliant nature like this.


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## luckyoldme (20 July 2021)

Ignorance is no excuse.
I know where my horse ended his life . I bought him and it was my responsibility.
Racing should be honest .
The whole story is that there are a huge amount of horses which live short life's and end up at the slaughter house. No matter how much money they make for their owners 
The multi millionaire s at the top end of the industry don't evan care enough to fund their own beyond reproach facility to ensure they don't suffer.
They want to be there at the racecourse and to wash their hands of the reality of the disposal of their left overs.
They need to overbreed and slaughter to achieve what they do.
They need to own all their actions..not just the flashy race track bits.


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## Marigold4 (20 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I don't agree with them being broken in so young. I really don't. I personally would not run a horse before it was 4yo and thus wouldn't break it until 3yo or even early 4yo. But sadly people have no patience any more to wait for the horses. I hate juvenile flat racing. It is completely wrong imo. What we do with these horses is make their lives as good as possible for the situation they have been put in. I know I would far rather be one of our racehorses than someone's horse who is kept in a stable 24/7 and only ever ridden in a school with 4 walls. There are parts of our training regime I do not like nor agree with but the same could be said for all walks of life. 

The feeding situation in racing isn't a great one as yes it does induce ulcers. Ours are also fed a good double handful of Alfa A with each feed 4x a day and 6kg of hay 3x a day. Most of our horses will munch most of it when they get it but save a little for later after they have worked. They are clever I'm that respect. They have adapted. 

At the end of the day you need to weigh up the consequences of what you do and how you deal with it. I know people don't like comparisons between racing and other equine sports but in reality it's people normal pet horses that probably suffer the most but they won't want to hear that because they believe they are doing the very best for their animal and they can't possibly do anything wrong.
		
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Elf On A Shelf said:



			I don't agree with them being broken in so young. I really don't. I personally would not run a horse before it was 4yo and thus wouldn't break it until 3yo or even early 4yo. But sadly people have no patience any more to wait for the horses. I hate juvenile flat racing. It is completely wrong imo. What we do with these horses is make their lives as good as possible for the situation they have been put in. I know I would far rather be one of our racehorses than someone's horse who is kept in a stable 24/7 and only ever ridden in a school with 4 walls. There are parts of our training regime I do not like nor agree with but the same could be said for all walks of life. 

The feeding situation in racing isn't a great one as yes it does induce ulcers. Ours are also fed a good double handful of Alfa A with each feed 4x a day and 6kg of hay 3x a day. Most of our horses will munch most of it when they get it but save a little for later after they have worked. They are clever I'm that respect. They have adapted. 

At the end of the day you need to weigh up the consequences of what you do and how you deal with it. I know people don't like comparisons between racing and other equine sports but in reality it's people normal pet horses that probably suffer the most but they won't want to hear that because they believe they are doing the very best for their animal and they can't possibly do anything wrong.
		
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"People's normal pet horses suffer the most" You honestly believe that?!


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## Marigold4 (20 July 2021)

Anyone know of a petition I could sign calling for the banning of racing two year olds? I'd like to do something more than just words. Or maybe someone could help me with the wording of one to get one started?


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## Michen (20 July 2021)

Marigold4 said:



			Totally agree. We have bred them and conditioned them to be obedient and it is so wrong to take advantage of their compliant nature like this.
		
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It’s just not a valid argument to say we aren’t forcing horses into stuff because they aren’t throwing themselves on the floor and refusing. Just makes the industry look even worse.


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## Abby-Lou (20 July 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			New Zealand lamb is readily available in UK supermarkets?

'Travel meat on the hook, not the hoof'
		
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Lamb processed in a slaughter house shipped to UK. Don't agree with live animals been shipped long distance ie from Ireland so maybe a rule


Marigold4 said:



			You're kidding, right? So it's ok to travel a horse on three legs from Ireland so that the meat is fresher??
		
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I didn't say it was ok to travel a horse on three legs.  A horse that is unable to travel like any other livestock should be dispatched at home and collected as fallen stock like cattle & sheep.  Perhaps someone on here has some knowledge of slaughter houses in Ireland and why the need to be transported to UK ?


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## ozpoz (20 July 2021)

Tops spec Vet of the Year, Natalie McGoldrick has just written a brave post on Facebook saying how much she hated her time as a vet, in slaughterhouses. The horses were all terrified, without exemption, and so were cows and sheep. 
 I wish this was banned, and a humane destruction at home was compulsory.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (20 July 2021)

Do we know which horses and owners were involved? I've seen the names of the ex GE horses


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## Birker2020 (20 July 2021)

Marigold4 said:



			You're kidding, right? So it's ok to travel a horse on three legs from Ireland so that the meat is fresher??
		
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It's awful, I refused to travel mine to be PTS at the vets as he was in pain which was kept at bay for the most part towards the end but travelling would have caused him undue pain and suffering. Humane destruction should always be at home.
I saw the footage of the grey with the broken foot waiting overnight to be pts and the bay was left a week in the lairage and thought how dreadfully sad.

Something is wrong somewhere, I just feel sorry for those poor, poor horses that were shot at from a distance by that t*at of a bloke.
And I feel dreadfully sorry for anyone with beloved pet horses that have gone to Drury's as they will always be questioning in what manner their horses were killed.


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## Abby-Lou (20 July 2021)

ozpoz said:



			Tops spec Vet of the Year, Natalie McGoldrick has just written a brave post on Facebook saying how much she hated her time as a vet, in slaughterhouses. The horses were all terrified, without exemption, and so were cows and sheep.
I wish this was banned, and a humane destruction at home was compulsory.
		
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Not all slaughter houses are the same, when we take one of our cattle to be killed for the freezer, we drop the tail board the heifer goes straight in to the kill pen, I take comfort by the time I am a mile down the road the animal has been dispatched, the on site vet is strict and the workers are professional and show compassion.


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## littleshetland (20 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			Yes, you are right - an awful lot of people wouldn't even think about the colour of the horses in the programme BUT those people who need to take this seriously in order to push for change, i.e the racing industry will notice and will think that the quality of research etc is laughable because of these silly, cheap errors.  It is about credibility for an informed audience and that does matter in terms of impact.
		
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But surely the people in the racing industry know and have known for a long time about what really goes one and yet nothing has changed for years.


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## Quigleyandme (20 July 2021)

Ireland Dispatch. A government select committee was already due to sit today to discuss doping in the horse racing industry; specifically Jim Bolger who is currently banned for four years for this offence. The committee will now also discuss the Panorama documentary because, and I imagine only because, the Irish government provides generous financial support to the industry. €77,000,000 of tax payer support in 2021 most of which is used as prize money which will clearly have a direct bearing on the sort of abuses we have been discussing here. Before I came to live here in 2019, so I don‘t know the detail, there was a similar expose about the woeful welfare standards in greyhound racing, also government sponsored. It caused quite a stink at the time but I don’t know if it changed anything in the longer term.


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## rabatsa (20 July 2021)

ester said:



			Cheaper to travel it live, no refrigeration.
		
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Meat on the hook takes up a lot less space, you are not travelling waste material.  I do not know the killing out % of horses but it will be no more than 60% so 40% of what is being moved is to go as paid for disposal.  Meat cannot drop dead in transit and so be unfit to go on the hook.



Marigold4 said:



			"People's normal pet horses suffer the most" You honestly believe that?!
		
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In a lot of cases I do believe that pet horses suffer more than racehorses.  At least in racing people notice if horses are lame and have large open wounds.  I have seen crippled, aged, pet ponies with maggots as the owners only ever looked over a gate a couple of times a week.

There are good pet owners but there are also a great deal with no knowledge who think because they are in a field with grass everything is ok.


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## meleeka (20 July 2021)

Zuzan said:



			But there is also a pistol that can be used legally https://www.hsa.org.uk/methods/free-bullet-firearms

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Was he using a shotgun or a rifle?  it does seem such a clumsy way of doing it. 



Abby-Lou said:



			Not all slaughter houses are the same, when we take one of our cattle to be killed for the freezer, we drop the tail board the heifer goes straight in to the kill pen, I take comfort by the time I am a mile down the road the animal has been dispatched, the on site vet is strict and the workers are professional and show compassion.
		
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That’s where I think the industry has a lot to answer for.  Those horses were given to a (well known) dealer presumably  so the owners/trainers can wash their hands of the problem.  He then sends them over from Ireland where they are kept in pens for a week or so before being transported and left overnight at Drury’s. If they are lucky they don’t see any of their friends get shot first.  That’s a huge difference to you being responsible and escorting the animal so you know it’s end is quick and dignified.


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## ester (20 July 2021)

rabatsa said:



			Meat on the hook takes up a lot less space, you are not travelling waste material.  I do not know the killing out % of horses but it will be no more than 60% so 40% of what is being moved is to go as paid for disposal.  Meat cannot drop dead in transit and so be unfit to go on the hook.
.
		
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True, I'd forgotten that.


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## Marigold4 (20 July 2021)

rabatsa said:



			Meat on the hook takes up a lot less space, you are not travelling waste material.  I do not know the killing out % of horses but it will be no more than 60% so 40% of what is being moved is to go as paid for disposal.  Meat cannot drop dead in transit and so be unfit to go on the hook.



In a lot of cases I do believe that pet horses suffer more than racehorses.  At least in racing people notice if horses are lame and have large open wounds.  I have seen crippled, aged, pet ponies with maggots as the owners only ever looked over a gate a couple of times a week.

There are good pet owners but there are also a great deal with no knowledge who think because they are in a field with grass everything is ok.
		
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rabatsa said:



			Meat on the hook takes up a lot less space, you are not travelling waste material.  I do not know the killing out % of horses but it will be no more than 60% so 40% of what is being moved is to go as paid for disposal.  Meat cannot drop dead in transit and so be unfit to go on the hook.



In a lot of cases I do believe that pet horses suffer more than racehorses.  At least in racing people notice if horses are lame and have large open wounds.  I have seen crippled, aged, pet ponies with maggots as the owners only ever looked over a gate a couple of times a week.

There are good pet owners but there are also a great deal with no knowledge who think because they are in a field with grass everything is ok.
		
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## Marigold4 (20 July 2021)

rabatsa said:



			Meat on the hook takes up a lot less space, you are not travelling waste material.  I do not know the killing out % of horses but it will be no more than 60% so 40% of what is being moved is to go as paid for disposal.  Meat cannot drop dead in transit and so be unfit to go on the hook.



In a lot of cases I do believe that pet horses suffer more than racehorses.  At least in racing people notice if horses are lame and have large open wounds.  I have seen crippled, aged, pet ponies with maggots as the owners only ever looked over a gate a couple of times a week.

There are good pet owners but there are also a great deal with no knowledge who think because they are in a field with grass everything is ok.
		
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I have never seen anything like that. Everyone I know looks after their horses pretty well. I think cases of unattended maggot infested wounds might be a small minority. RSPCA or another charity can and should be called to deal with such treatment. It doesn't excuse what goes on behind closed doors in the racing industry by rich people for monetary gain.


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## Michen (20 July 2021)

Just watched it. I'm furious, apalled, disgusted. Racing has a lot to answer for IMO.

And WTF is with the vet that just watched them shoot horses at a distance? God knows what kind of vet ends up doing that sort of job anyway, albiet of course someone has to, but to let such blatant abuse just slide..


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## Goldenstar (20 July 2021)

Someone once said to me when she heard one of my horses had been shot at home that I did not love my horses as much as she loved hers as she could bear to do that 
This is why I can, having your own horse shot at home is distressing and heartbreaking etc etc.
When I went out last night to have a a little cry into Sky’s mane I was crying for departed friends but for those horses on a slow route to slaughter I could do nothing to help .


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## Lipglosspukka (20 July 2021)

I don't think it's fair to say pet ponies suffer more. 

I believe most owners have their horses best intentions at heart. They are mollycoddled. Realistically most are in light work and other than often being a bit porky, they don't really want for anything do they? Fly sprays, sparkly hoof oils, fly masks, endless supplements, every weight rug you can think of. We dote on our horses don't we?


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## Goldenstar (20 July 2021)

On Leisure horses I was a welfare officer and yes I definitely think more leisure horses suffer more than racehorses .
Lots of people are wearing rose tinted spectacles in that respect .


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## ester (20 July 2021)

I'm finding the multiple social media posts stating 'but not our bit of racing'/ but look I have a rehomed one a bit tedious this morning. I'd much rather those people acknowledged the issues and became part of the solution.


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## Michen (20 July 2021)

ester said:



			I'm finding the multiple social media posts stating 'but not our bit of racing'/ but look I have a rehomed one a bit tedious this morning. I'd much rather those people acknowledged the issues and became part of the solution.
		
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Completely agree. As if that justifies it. Urgh.


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## humblepie (20 July 2021)

I fully appreciate that saying one thing is bad in one area doesn't make another area right but horses from many different disciplines will have similar lifestyles re the feeding regime and the worst piece of riding I have seen which still sticks in my mind was a well known dressage rider/trainer on their own horse when I was the yard for a clinic.   Talk about socking a horse in the mouth with a double bridle on and booting it whilst wearing serious sized spurs - and that was whilst there were outsiders on the yard.


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## luckyoldme (20 July 2021)

littleshetland said:



			But surely the people in the racing industry know and have known for a long time about what really goes one and yet nothing has changed for years.
		
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This is what shocks me the most.
I honestly thought everyone knew that this was the story. 
I spoke to grooms in the 80s who loaded horses at yards for the slaughter house.it broke their hearts.it's just not possible to use the vast amount of horses for such a short amount of time then care for them for the rest of their natural lives.
I thought this was just a sad fact of life that everyone accepted and that I was a soft shite for feeling so sad about it.
Does anyone honestly think that now that owners and trainers have supposedly just found that it will change.
They will ride the tiny little storm of the moment then back to business as usual.
Money is king


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## milliepops (20 July 2021)

I have a rehomed one....  Mine came straight from the trainer and despite having been turned away for a good while his teeth and worming etc were up to date. I was pleasantly surprised by that and also the efforts they made to secure suitable homes. Unfortunately he was lame and is also terminally broken... perhaps he would have been better as a pts candidate rather earlier rather than a rehomer 😔

I'm actually less bothered about racehorses ending up at the abattoir, in my mind i find production of animals for meat to be as unpleasant as the wastage in racing but appreciate that's a minority view.

 the bigger problem to my mind is more about the abattoir apparently being so deficient in their standards.


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## meleeka (20 July 2021)

Having a horse pts at home would be like spending pennies to those owners.  Would it be too unreasonable to expect them to foot the bill??


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## TPO (20 July 2021)

I find it really strange how people can compartmentalise slaughter houses for horses bad, no animal deserves that end away from home and slaughter houses for sheep/pigs/cows is acceptable because we eat them.

Pigs are more intelligent than horses and have a greater understanding of what is going in at an abattoir than any other animal. Unsurprisingly sheep are the least intelligent but therefore the least stressed by the process.

I've never worked in racing but I've been on a lot (!) of yards and pts at an abattoir would be a kindness compared to what these "loved" horses had to endure.


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## TheDarkSideOfHorseRacing (20 July 2021)

It's absolutely sickening what goes on and how these horses are treated.


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## cauda equina (20 July 2021)

How many of us send our horses to an abattoir at the end? Not many, probably
And how many of us can afford to have a racehorse?

I find the idea of horses being processed through an abattoir more upsetting, even if done humanely, than other animals because (most) horses have been trained to have a relationship with their human handlers in a way that farm animals are not
They have been brought up to trust us and we should repay that trust by giving them a quiet end


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## ycbm (20 July 2021)

I can compartmentalise it because one is to provide entertainment and the other is to provide affordable food.  
.


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## littleshetland (20 July 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			On Leisure horses I was a welfare officer and yes I definitely think more leisure horses suffer than racehorses .
Lots of people are wearing rose tinted spectacles in that respect .
		
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I agree but am I naive in thinking that individuals who own horses can be dealt with on an individual basis? Perhaps through education or legislation...?  The problem with the racing industry is this daily holocaust for animals is happening on an industrial scale.  It's like a huge machine chewing up animals and spitting them out.


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## Laafet (20 July 2021)

I didn't watch it but can someone confirm when these horses came over from Ireland because if they came over after January 1st, they would have been seen by a Government vet for their health papers in Ireland and this is exactly what the new rules are meant to stop?! And as there are a lot more equine licenced slaughterhouses in Ireland than here, it seems strange to pay all the money to get them over on the ferry to bring them to the UK.
I am saddened by it all, Racing always gets picked on and everyone seems to forget huge amounts of money from racing go into developments in veterinary care etc for the benefit of all horses. Over production is a huge problem in all corners of the equine world too. We need to tackle that first. Brexit has ironically helped in decreasing the amount of Thoroughbreds put in foal this year which helps.
The BHA has some interesting stats which surprised even me -

*The BHA also issued some data in an attempt to give context to the discussion around aftercare of racehorses, noting that around 20,000 individual thoroughbreds race each year, making up less than three per cent of the total horse population of Britain. It noted that 9,007 horses are now registered on the Retraining of Racehorses website and more horses took part in ROR dressage competitions in 2019 than ran in steeplechases, by 4,148 to 2,965. *

So we are going in the right direction on that front.

As for the practice in the Slaughterhouse - that really needs looking at. For a start, in the tiny bit I did see they were using a shot gun. I have never seen that in all the horses that I have witnessed being put down. When we put the broodmares down the vet shot them with a pistol with a silencer on. The local knackerman does exactly the same but without a silencer. It all seems very wrong what was going on there.

For what it's worth, I do think there are worse fates than death for horses, especially ex racers that end up being passed about. However that death should be a respectful one as possible. I didn't see many horses put down/die when I worked in racing. I can count the amount of horses on one hand. In fact it was in Australia I saw the most, one drowned in a swimming pool on exercise and two collapsed with heart attacks after barrier trials. I saw more when I was in stud work, around 10 mares in over 100 plus foalings, that was not at all pleasant but not one suffered for a long time, the vet was there quickly and the decision made swiftly. All the racehorses were done on the yard they lived on, the only time I have seen horses go for slaughter was from the Riding School I worked in as a kid.


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## windand rain (20 July 2021)

Marigold4 said:



			"People's normal pet horses suffer the most" You honestly believe that?!
		
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Actually I do think pet horses suffer much more than racehorses. How many over 18 year old horses do you see for sale, how many companion only due to injury, how many much loved oldies for extortionate amounts of money because sonny is going to university etc it is far more than a few hundred that go from uk yards to slaughter. I do think on this site we are preaching to the converted but I did watch it I did think that some of the short term practices were appalling but they were short lived compared to the suffering of many that lasts for years sometimes decades in homes who cannot bear to PTS their "loved" horse
I have always kept mine from cradle to grave unless I pretty much know their new owners might not always be the case now as they might well outlive me but I have done my best. 
The horses from Ireland could and should be stopped. The biggest failure in modern times has been the closure of the abattoirs that were local to every market town so no animals travelled far from home to the meat market.


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## milliepops (20 July 2021)

the footage was from late 2019/early 2020.


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## Lammy (20 July 2021)

littleshetland said:



			I agree but am I naive in thinking that individuals who own horses can be dealt with on an individual basis? Perhaps through education or legislation...?  The problem with the racing industry is this daily holocaust for animals is happening on an industrial scale.  It's like a huge machine chewing up animals and spitting them out.
		
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I understand that you’re upset but I think the comparisons of horse racing to slavery and the Holocaust is way over the line and you need to stop.


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## I'm Dun (20 July 2021)

ester said:



			I'm finding the multiple social media posts stating 'but not our bit of racing'/ but look I have a rehomed one a bit tedious this morning. I'd much rather those people acknowledged the issues and became part of the solution.
		
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I posted about mine. I did it before watching it as I wanted non horsey friends to know that not all race horses end up being slaughtered. 

There is lots about racing I dont like, but how do we become part of the solution? Is there anything we can do to stop 2yr olds racing? To make sure something is done about the wastage? To try and bring in better living conditions for racehorses in training? 

If there is something I would love to be involved!


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## Laafet (20 July 2021)

milliepops said:



			the footage was from late 2019/early 2020.
		
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Hmm, see that doesn't add up - if they came DUB/HLY - there are health papers done, plus the customs work. Aside from the morality of it - the sheer cost of bringing these horses over post Jan 1st should have stopped all of this. Plus a ministry vet signing off the horse as fit to travel......


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## shortstuff99 (20 July 2021)

Laafet said:



			Hmm, see that doesn't add up - if they came DUB/HLY - there are health papers done, plus the customs work. Aside from the morality of it - the sheer cost of bringing these horses over post Jan 1st should have stopped all of this. Plus a ministry vet signing off the horse as fit to travel......
		
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Not if they came over via NI I believe.


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## meleeka (20 July 2021)

i can compartmentalise it because there aren’t really options for pigs/sheep.  Pigs/sheep also aren’t owned by people with more money than sense and are only bred for food.  You can imagine the cost would be prohibitive for a farmer to have the knacker man come to him. These horses have provided entertainment and money to their owners and deserve a dignified end. 

I had my pig pts at home, so I don’t think it matters what the species is, I couldn’t do it and as a pet, mine deserved more.  if the abattoir was well run i might not mind as much if horses went there.


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## Tiddlypom (20 July 2021)

Laafet said:



			Hmm, see that doesn't add up - if they came DUB/HLY - there are health papers done, plus the customs work. Aside from the morality of it - the sheer cost of bringing these horses over post Jan 1st should have stopped all of this. Plus a ministry vet signing off the horse as fit to travel......
		
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I thought that, too. Surely the cost of shipping from Ireland and associated costs would be more than the £300 or so these horses would fetch as dead weight?

There must have been shennagins going on for these formerly 'pampered' horses to still be eligible to be in the food chain. I sachet of bute at any time and they are required to be signed out for life, aren't they?

The NZ lamb that I see for sale is frozen. It is cheaper than UK produced lamb, which shouldn't make economic sense, but there you are.


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## ester (20 July 2021)

I'm dun it was more trainers posts and people responding to them that was bugging me. 

Re. sending them to the abattoir vs. food animals there's been a massive amount of research in abattoir layouts etc for food animals in recent years with regards to reducing stress. I'm not sure that's the case for horses, even if just because of their fewer numbers (though maybe a moot point if the current regs aren't being followed anyway).


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## Laafet (20 July 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			I thought that, too. Surely the cost of shipping from Ireland and associated costs would be more than the £300 or so these horses would fetch as dead weight?

There must have been shennagins going on for these formerly 'pampered' horses to still be eligible to be in the food chain. I sachet of bute at any time and they are required to be signed out for life, aren't they?

The NZ lamb that I see for sale is frozen. It is cheaper than UK produced lamb, which shouldn't make economic sense, but there you are.
		
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The paperwork alone costs around 250 euros, plus there are different health papers for those going for slaughter, if they come over a normal paper they have to be signed out of the food chain and thus 'worthless', most Thoroughbreds are signed out before they reach a year old anyway (or at least all the studs I worked with did it as principle)..... They could have come via NI but again the cost of coming that way would negate any compensation from the abbattoir. I am struggling to see why they came here when there are slaughterhouses that take horses over there.


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## milliepops (20 July 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			I thought that, too. Surely the cost of shipping from Ireland and associated costs would be more than the £300 or so these horses would fetch as dead weight?

There must have been shennagins going on for these formerly 'pampered' horses to still be eligible to be in the food chain. I sachet of bute at any time and they are required to be signed out for life, aren't they?
		
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definite shenanigans, the number that they said had chips registered to different horses in their necks was a bit of an eye opener.


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## criso (20 July 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			There must have been shennagins going on for these formerly 'pampered' horses to still be eligible to be in the food chain. I sachet of bute at any time and they are required to be signed out for life, aren't they?
		
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There were some shenanigans.  I only caught part of it but saw one bit.  A horse injured itself badly and was pts on the course.  Might have been Irish grand national, anyway footage of horse pulling up on 3  legs and all very public so had definitely been pts.

This 'horse' turned up in a slaughterhouse which was impossible as it had died several years earlier.  It turned out the horse had 2 microchips, it's own and the one of the dead horse.  So several levels of corruption for this to happen.  What wasn't clear was if this was the tip of the iceberg and the one they found or if the checking processes mean the perpetrator s would be unlikely to get away with this.

On the subject of Bute, my current tb was 5 when he came to me.  Had been in a couple of racing yards and one private home. I find it unlikely he had never been given Bute in his whole life but I'm the first owner to sign him out of the food chain.  Same with my previous one though I bought him before the horsemeat scandal and people started checking this page more.


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## milliepops (20 July 2021)

they said there were 40 attempts over 20 days to get horses into the foodchain with iffy documents. it sounds like a widespread problem.


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## littleshetland (20 July 2021)

Lammy said:



			I understand that you’re upset but I think the comparisons of horse racing to slavery and the Holocaust is way over the line and you need to stop.
		
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 I'm not upset, just incredibly sad that nothing seems to change. Sorry if you find my choice of words 'over the line'... but these are my thoughts and I am entitled to air them on this public forum.  I was not comparing horse racing to slavery per se, but trying to highlight that change can be possible if there is the will to make that change. And as for using the admittedly rather dramatic  term 'holocaust'  I simply cannot find another term to describe humanitys treatment of animals.  What word would you use to describe it?


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## ihatework (20 July 2021)

This program was about racing and racehorses.

So leaving aside abattoir practises, the need for abbatoirs for the wider equine population, the issues in other equine disciplines, the fate of leisure horses etc.

The BHA has to get their act together. Rich owners need to stop passing the buck and thinking that giving their horses away is all pink and fluffy. Trainers need to take responsibility for the horses in their care, have clear policies that owners sign up to and enforce them.

If a racehorse is either physically or behaviourally unlikely to excel in a non racing home do the right bloody thing and have it PTS at home.

If you are going to pass the horse onto a non racing home then don’t give up ownership. Watertight legal agreement, do the right checks before and during the rehoming and step in if needed afterwards.

There are riders and trainers that do right by the horse as described above. 

But there are also those that see them purely as commercial interests and once they aren’t of use any more are happy to let the horses fate be someone else’s fault. Disgusting.


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## milliepops (20 July 2021)

it's interesting that the BBC picked up on the racing aspect of it because the stuff animal aid put on their website after the documentary aired was about slaughter of horses in general, with racing only being a part of it. their associated campaign/petition is about reducing breeding of all horses.


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## splashgirl45 (20 July 2021)

milliepops said:



			it's interesting that the BBC picked up on the racing aspect of it because the stuff animal aid put on their website after the documentary aired was about slaughter of horses in general, with racing only being a part of it. their associated campaign/petition is about reducing breeding of all horses.
		
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although i dont agree with the way these people go about things,  less breeding of all horses especially the coloured cobs bred in their thousands would be a good idea..


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## milliepops (20 July 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			although i dont agree with the way these people go about things,  less breeding of all horses especially the coloured cobs bred in their thousands would be a good idea..
		
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I don't disagree, on the face of it... however i can't think of a way it could be enforced and not become yet another expensive joke enterprise that only penalises the responsible folk.


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## tristar (20 July 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Not if they came over via NI I believe.
		
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shorter crossing, less time on boat


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## tristar (20 July 2021)

Michen said:



			Just watched it. I'm furious, apalled, disgusted. Racing has a lot to answer for IMO.

And WTF is with the vet that just watched them shoot horses at a distance? God knows what kind of vet ends up doing that sort of job anyway, albiet of course someone has to, but to let such blatant abuse just slide..
		
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 if someone went in a stable and shot a horse in that way they would be prosecuted it would be all over horse and hound, there would be outrage and all hell would break loose

i know some lovely vets, and have met some that should be shoveling shit


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## tristar (20 July 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			Someone once said to me when she heard one of my horses had been shot at home that I did not love my horses as much as she loved hers as she could bear to do that 
This is why I can, having your own horse shot at home is distressing and heartbreaking etc etc.
When I went out last night to have a a little cry into Sky’s mane I was crying for departed friends but for those horses on a slow route to slaughter I could do nothing to help .
		
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oh god GS, i feel the same


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## PeterNatt (20 July 2021)

These horse gave their owners much pleasure yet as soon a sthey no longer peform they are just discarded.  The trainer was reported to have said that he sold the three race horses to a 'Dealer' and was therefore no longer responsible for them.  This needs to be investigated to determine exactly what is goijng on?  They also need to find out how the micro-chip of a horse that had been destroyed on the race track was implanted in to another horse?  The British Horse Racing Authority need to have a thorough investigation and ensure that in future racehorses are put down peacefully at their yards and not travelled miles to their end.  In addittion the matter of injured horses who are in pain or discomfort being made to travel miles before they are put down should be investigated and it should be mandatory to put them down at their yard rather than travelling them.


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## Old school (20 July 2021)

Quigleyandme, just to clarify Jim Bolger is not currently banned. He made the claim about doping of racehorse.

Michen in Ireland lots of brainy folk make it to vet college. Most want to be in practice. My experience of govt vets is that they don't have the interpersonal/ people skills for dealing with Joe Public. They end up in abbattoirs or behind desks in regional offices. In my twenty years experience of them they normally create more animal welfare issues than they prevent.


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## tristar (20 July 2021)

luckyoldme said:



			This is what shocks me the most.
I honestly thought everyone knew that this was the story. 
I spoke to grooms in the 80s who loaded horses at yards for the slaughter house.it broke their hearts.it's just not possible to use the vast amount of horses for such a short amount of time then care for them for the rest of their natural lives.
I thought this was just a sad fact of life that everyone accepted and that I was a soft shite for feeling so sad about it.
Does anyone honestly think that now that owners and trainers have supposedly just found that it will change.
They will ride the tiny little storm of the moment then back to business as usual.
Money is king
		
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the more people are aware of what happens the nearer we move to dignity for all animals


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## meleeka (20 July 2021)

milliepops said:



			definite shenanigans, the number that they said had chips registered to different horses in their necks was a bit of an eye opener.
		
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I thought that.  Somebody on the inside must have got the chip out of the dead horse then replanted it into the other one?


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## Equine_Dream (20 July 2021)

I watched this and it has really truly upset me. We as the human race need to take a good hard look at ourselves. My husband put it so well as we finished watching yesterday evening....horses owe us nothing, yet we owe them everything. They truly deserved better. Watching the way they were lead away from the holding pens, ever compliant and trusting, some clearly terrified, but still they went......That image will stay with me for a very long time. 
I'm aware euthanasia has it's place in the racing industry. Some horses just can not be rehomed. But not like this. No horse should have to watch it's companion shot, only to then have the gun pointed at them. As for the gunman taking a shot from across the room from the animal....I'm utterly lost for words.


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## luckyoldme (20 July 2021)

meleeka said:



			I thought that.  Somebody on the inside must have got the chip out of the dead horse then replanted it into the other one?
		
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There can't be that many people involved between the horse being put down and the knackery.
Having said that it took 40 years + for them supposedly to notice that 4000 horses a year were going for slaughter so I don't expect they will be very quick at actually finding out who is digging microchips out of dead horses


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## pinkypug1 (20 July 2021)

I have no issue with horses being PTS but it should be done at home on a yard they know not transported hundreds of miles to a slaughter house! There is no excuse for it! especially in the horse racing world where money is plentiful to ensure a dignified end for an animal that has given its all for an owner/trainer.


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## fankino04 (20 July 2021)

PeterNatt said:



			These horse gave their owners much pleasure yet as soon a sthey no longer peform they are just discarded.  The trainer was reported to have said that he sold the three race horses to a 'Dealer' and was therefore no longer responsible for them.  This needs to be investigated to determine exactly what is goijng on?  They also need to find out how the micro-chip of a horse that had been destroyed on the race track was implanted in to another horse?  The British Horse Racing Authority need to have a thorough investigation and ensure that in future racehorses are put down peacefully at their yards and not travelled miles to their end.  In addittion the matter of injured horses who are in pain or discomfort being made to travel miles before they are put down should be investigated and it should be mandatory to put them down at their yard rather than travelling them.
		
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That shouldn't just apply to racehorses.


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## Errin Paddywack (20 July 2021)

I am struggling to understand the point of transplanting a microchip from a dead horse into a live one.  Surely that would be on record as a dead horse, you couldn't claim it was the horse that was already known to be dead.  Am I missing something?


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## milliepops (20 July 2021)

no idea how joined up any of this record checking is... perhaps not very, as they obviously thought they would get away with it.


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## Polos Mum (20 July 2021)

My OH, a firearms officer in the past was appalled by the weapon of choice and how it was handled. 

The guy waving it about over his head could easily have killed someone behind / above him and almost never been close enough to the horse to be at the right angle vs. a pistol. 

If nothing else there should be questions about his gun licence with that approach to using it.


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## ester (20 July 2021)

re. choice of gun, others might find this interesting. 
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0309174015300346#bb0170

Not particularly safe use noted.


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## Birker2020 (20 July 2021)

Abby-Lou said:



			Not all slaughter houses are the same, when we take one of our cattle to be killed for the freezer, we drop the tail board the heifer goes straight in to the kill pen, I take comfort by the time I am a mile down the road the animal has been dispatched, the on site vet is strict and the workers are professional and show compassion.
		
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But you can never really know what goes on behind closed doors.  There will always be an element of cruelty towards animals, when they are seen as nothing but a 'failed reject' which is sadly what they are classed as. As in life there are always those that delight in cruelty towards animals because they lack empathy and moral fibre.  This will eventually, in most cases, transfer over to humans.

Of course not all slaughter men are like that, I went out with one who used to slaughter livestock for a living in Ireland.  When he moved over to Birmingham he worked at a halal meat processing plant where they slaughtered the animals on site - he walked out after three days as he couldn't stand the level of incompetency, cruelty and barbaric treatment of the animals.

Like the man who sat on the dead horse, the horse didn't care.  But that wasn't the point.  It was the lack of respect towards that animal.  THe lack of respect towards the racehorses at Drurys was appalling in the clips that we saw (or didn't see as they were censored) but it makes you wonder how badly they were actually treated prior to slaughter.

I wonder if the slaughterman taking pot shots at that horse was sacked after all this came to light?  It was never mentioned.


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## Birker2020 (20 July 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			The NZ lamb that I see for sale is frozen. It is cheaper than UK produced lamb, which shouldn't make economic sense, but there you are.
		
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I believe that is because it is killed with the halal method of slaughter.  I think that makes it cheaper although it would seem more labour intensive.


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## criso (20 July 2021)

Errin Paddywack said:



			I am struggling to understand the point of transplanting a microchip from a dead horse into a live one.  Surely that would be on record as a dead horse, you couldn't claim it was the horse that was already known to be dead.  Am I missing something?
		
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Presumably so you could have a passport where it wasn't signed out of the food chain.   I don't know the processes involved, do they just check the microchip matches the passport?  Check it hadn't been signed out of the food chain and treat the carcass as suitable for meat.  Would they look up details of each horse online to check.  There could be different breeds with passports from different agencies and the example in the programme was pts on the racecourse, there could be others where the death wasn't registered.


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## fankino04 (20 July 2021)

How are there so many horses that aren't signed out of the food chain, I don't think I know of any horse who's never had at least 1 sachet of Bute and they do far less strenuous work than sports horses who must surely be getting little niggles and then Bute to get them over it. Do vets need to be held to account more for not insisting on having the passport when they prescribe things?


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## I'm Dun (20 July 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I believe that is because it is killed with the halal method of slaughter.  I think that makes it cheaper although it would seem more labour intensive.
		
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it has absolutely nothing to do with halal and everything to do with  




			low costs, high yield, lower rates of disease and a favourable exchange rate
		
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## Tiddlypom (20 July 2021)

fankino04 said:



			Do vets need to be held to account more for not insisting on having the passport when they prescribe things?
		
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Good point. I think there will be a few vets who work on racing yards who will be sweating after watching that programme.


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## Birker2020 (20 July 2021)

I'm Dun said:



			it has absolutely nothing to do with halal and everything to do with
		
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low costs and high yield being my point.


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## criso (20 July 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I believe that is because it is killed with the halal method of slaughter.  I think that makes it cheaper although it would seem more labour intensive.
		
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It's because it's a huge industry and has lower production cost overall.

They use Halal methods because there is massive demand in the Middle East for lamb that can't all be supplied locally.  It's easier to use the same method for all but leave it to the supermarkets to decide how to label it.


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## Fellewell (20 July 2021)

Expensive horses get injuries and sometimes have behavioural issues. Some of them are a challenge to the professionals and have no place with a leisure rider, regardless of how much money they may have won.
I'm sure the animal aid guy is a nice person with his field full of rugged up geriatric horses (on bute for comfort?) but a slaughter house is too easy a target and it should be remembered that euthanasia at an animal's home does not always go to plan. Vets can make mistakes. At least at the slaughter house there is back up for failed attempts.
The problem here seems to be bute in the food chain (who knew!) and that horses that look nice or are trusting/famous should live forever. They can't all be rehabbed. They don't always come sound. That's the truth, sadly.


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## Orangehorse (20 July 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I believe that is because it is killed with the halal method of slaughter.  I think that makes it cheaper although it would seem more labour intensive.
		
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No that's no correct.  It is just economy of scale. 
I would think that halal would actually be slower, as each one has a prayer.  There is a very large demand for Halal meat in the UK too, in fact there is a local chap, a Pakistani, who has his own slaughterhouse and buys at all the local markets.

All margins are very tight, which is why there are fewer and larger slaughterhouses that have a very large throughput.

In some slaughterhouses animals are killed early in the morning and then in the afternoon the religious slaughtermen and staff come in - so it is for Halal and jewish - probably not in the same one though.

Our local farmers' club have visited two slaughterhouses one in Ireland and one in the UK, which is where our animals go to straight from the farm.  In both cases those that went said it was very interesting and they were quite happy with what they had seen and both places have large supermarket contracts so it is obviously in their interests to keep everything running well.


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## Tiddlypom (20 July 2021)

Fellewell said:



			The problem here seems to be bute in the food chain (who knew!) and that horses that look nice or are trusting/famous should live forever. They can't all be rehabbed. They don't always come sound. That's the truth, sadly.
		
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You are missing the point. Are you involved in the racing industry 🤷‍♀️?

Of course horses can't live forever. But they shouldn't be travelled long distances inc a ferry crossing unnecessarily to be slaughtered either, just to save some £££s. And none of us can work out how it can be cheaper to do it that way either, so there's a lot that is fishy going on.


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## Elf On A Shelf (20 July 2021)

This thread has turned into a racing bashing thread when in reality the program was about malpractice in the slaughterhouse. But of course the BBC want the sensational story headlines and "The Dark Side Of Slaughterhouses" doesn't have the same ring as "The Dark Side Of Racing" does it now? The BBC are supposed to be non-biased so in that case they should show the other side of the coin - The Good Side Of Racing. But no one will watch that or get up in arms about it because it is not what they chose to believe. They want to continue to believe that Racing is the enemy.

I am stepping out of this thread completely now. 

The last thing I will say is please, please do find which of your local Racing yards are opening their doors in September and go and have a look for yourself.


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## Orangehorse (20 July 2021)

Vets don't insist on seeing a passport as they say it isn't their job to police the system, their interest is the welfare of the animal.

In cattle we have to record any medicines given to the animals in the Medicine Book that is inspected by the Farm Assurance people and at any time by Trading Standards and by BPS inspections. 

I didn't see the Panorama programme but from what I have read it was definitely a dig at certain high profile people, but mainly on the very poor practices in the particular slaughterhouse, which sound appalling, and some very dodgy, illegal practices concerning the paperwork.  As if no-one has learned any lessons from the horsemeat scandal and what must be at the hands of people who are simply after making money, no matter what suffering is caused or how illegal it is.  I'm glad they have been found out.


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## meleeka (20 July 2021)

Fellewell said:



			Expensive horses get injuries and sometimes have behavioural issues. Some of them are a challenge to the professionals and have no place with a leisure rider, regardless of how much money they may have won.
I'm sure the animal aid guy is a nice person with his field full of rugged up geriatric horses (on bute for comfort?) but a slaughter house is too easy a target and it should be remembered that euthanasia at an animal's home does not always go to plan. Vets can make mistakes. At least at the slaughter house there is back up for failed attempts.
The problem here seems to be bute in the food chain (who knew!) and that horses that look nice or are trusting/famous should live forever. They can't all be rehabbed. They don't always come sound. That's the truth, sadly.
		
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Horses do get injured but are we to assume it those don’t get any pain relief just so they can be sold to the meat industry for a few hundred pounds.  

What back up is at an abattoir when things go wrong?  Presumably they just have another go, the same we a vet at a yard would? 

I think most people aren’t so fluffy to think successful horses should live forever, but they should be given a peaceful end, at home where they are relaxed, even if that costs a few hundred pounds.  It’s not even the pts (although there’s a whole debate about over breeding), it’s about the lack of respect and cruel method used, such as travelling long distances, waiting a week or more and then some incompetent with a rifle shooting their mate in front of them.  I’m shocked if anyone thinks that’s ok.


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## milliepops (20 July 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			You are missing the point. Are you involved in the racing industry 🤷‍♀️?

Of course horses can't live forever. But they shouldn't be travelled long distances inc a ferry crossing unnecessarily to be slaughtered either, just to save some £££s. .
		
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especially if they are non weightbearing on a leg  
those horses were failed on many levels, even if you accept that slaughter is an acceptable end, it must be done correctly.


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## meleeka (20 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			This thread has turned into a racing bashing thread when in reality the program was about malpractice in the slaughterhouse. But of course the BBC want the sensational story headlines and "The Dark Side Of Slaughterhouses" doesn't have the same ring as "The Dark Side Of Racing" does it now? The BBC are supposed to be non-biased so in that case they should show the other side of the coin - The Good Side Of Racing. But no one will watch that or get up in arms about it because it is not what they chose to believe. They want to continue to believe that Racing is the enemy.

I am stepping out of this thread completely now. 

The last thing I will say is please, please do find which of your local Racing yards are opening their doors in September and go and have a look for yourself.
		
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Perhaps we should be saying “some” racing yards as yours seems to be well run.  I’m sorry you feel that way, but could you just clarify  why racehorses aren’t put down at home?  Is it just about economics?


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## Tiddlypom (20 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			The last thing I will say is please, please do find which of your local Racing yards are opening their doors in September and go and have a look for yourself.
		
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Sorry that you feel like that, EKW. The trouble with open days is that they are, of course, stage managed to show the best side of racing. It's the dark side that ought to concern us.

ETA I have been on a guided tour of Manor House Stables. A fabulous set up, and the horses all looked well.


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## milliepops (20 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			This thread has turned into a racing bashing thread when in reality the program was about malpractice in the slaughterhouse. But of course the BBC want the sensational story headlines and "The Dark Side Of Slaughterhouses" doesn't have the same ring as "The Dark Side Of Racing" does it now? The BBC are supposed to be non-biased so in that case they should show the other side of the coin - The Good Side Of Racing. But no one will watch that or get up in arms about it because it is not what they chose to believe. They want to continue to believe that Racing is the enemy.

I am stepping out of this thread completely now.

The last thing I will say is please, please do find which of your local Racing yards are opening their doors in September and go and have a look for yourself.
		
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totally understand your standpoint.
my takeaway from the programme was all about the slaughter house, and as far as the racing aspect was concerned mostly that some people were either naive or a bit underhand in the way they let horses slip from their hands.

the slaughterhouse is clearly at huge fault and I would prefer the discussion centred on that because that affects more than just racehorses.

However I do think that the huge defensive front that connections of racing mounted yesterday - before the show was aired, and since then, have sort of forced people to look at the industry. it could have been handled differently to put the public gaze more firmly on the treatment of horses sent to abattoirs.


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## ester (20 July 2021)

I can hold in mind both slaughter houses and the wider problems in racing/with racing at the same time regardless of any program title.
I think we actually get to see the good side of racing way more than we do any of the issues with it if we are going for the non-biased approach.


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## SEL (20 July 2021)

You'd have thought after the Findus Lasagne debacle a few years back the horsemeat / slaughterhouse / controls over horse ID would have tightened up. Obviously not.


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## Laafet (20 July 2021)

meleeka said:



			Perhaps we should be saying “some” racing yards as yours seems to be well run.  I’m sorry you feel that way, but could you just clarify  why racehorses aren’t put down at home?  Is it just about economics?
		
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Racehorses are put down at home, in the 20 years of working with all different sorts of Thoroughbred stock from foals to racehorses. All were PTS at home, at the vets, or at the racecourse. In Newmarket, there is a sad truck that collects fallen stock of all kinds not just racehorses, there is a scheme the trainers/stud managers pay into - last time I was involved it was £600 a year and that even covered emergency euthanasia by a qualified stockman for any horses in your care. Absolutely no reason to stick them on a box to Potters. That is cheaper than the cost for a normal riding horse person to have their horse PTS in this area if you get the vet to do it.


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## paddi22 (20 July 2021)

Fellewell said:



			Expensive horses get injuries and sometimes have behavioural issues. Some of them are a challenge to the professionals and have no place with a leisure rider, regardless of how much money they may have won.
I'm sure the animal aid guy is a nice person with his field full of rugged up geriatric horses (on bute for comfort?) but a slaughter house is too easy a target and it should be remembered that euthanasia at an animal's home does not always go to plan. Vets can make mistakes. At least at the slaughter house there is back up for failed attempts.
The problem here seems to be bute in the food chain (who knew!) and that horses that look nice or are trusting/famous should live forever. They can't all be rehabbed. They don't always come sound. That's the truth, sadly.
		
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that's totally deflecting from the issue. You have no idea if that guy butes his horses up, you are making that up.  The reason most of the horses are a 'challenge' to leisure riders is because they are in pain with kissing spine, SI etc and they have been broken in a way that makes the transition to leisure horse careers a very big leap.   It's really clutching at straws to be backing up your argument with the tiny numbers of vet PTS scenarios that go wrong, most vets dispatch with no issues.  It's a tiny tiny percentage compared the suffering horses go through at badly run slaughter houses.

Nobody is expecting every racehorse  in the world to have an 'all the oats you can eat' retirement in lush paddocks. But they are expecting horses to either be given a good chance at a new life (by being physically and mentally well) or to be PTS humanely and with respect. The fact that you are arguing otherwise is surprising?


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## Equine_Dream (20 July 2021)

Fellewell said:



			Expensive horses get injuries and sometimes have behavioural issues. Some of them are a challenge to the professionals and have no place with a leisure rider, regardless of how much money they may have won.
I'm sure the animal aid guy is a nice person with his field full of rugged up geriatric horses (on bute for comfort?) but a slaughter house is too easy a target and it should be remembered that euthanasia at an animal's home does not always go to plan. Vets can make mistakes. At least at the slaughter house there is back up for failed attempts.
The problem here seems to be bute in the food chain (who knew!) and that horses that look nice or are trusting/famous should live forever. They can't all be rehabbed. They don't always come sound. That's the truth, sadly.
		
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So do the decent thing and shoot them at home. I'm not against horses that can not, for whatever reason, be rehomed, being pts. I am against these animals being carted off to an abbatoir when they could just as easily be shot at home. 

Also I've just realised this is the same abbatoir where the 3 little section A colts were sent from the stud last year. I hope these poor babies had a kinder end than the horses shown last night 😥


https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...tud-delivering-youngstock-to-abattoir.796346/


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## ycbm (20 July 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			The NZ lamb that I see for sale is frozen. It is cheaper than UK produced lamb, which shouldn't make economic sense, but there you are.
		
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Birker2020 said:



			I believe that is because it is killed with the halal method of slaughter.  I think that makes it cheaper although it would seem more labour intensive.
		
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It's because they run them in big flocks and don't have freezing wet winters like we do.  

This article is also interesting about how they increased their profitability 

https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/liv...from-nz-to-increase-sheep-flock-returns-by-30
.


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## Equine_Dream (20 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			This thread has turned into a racing bashing thread when in reality the program was about malpractice in the slaughterhouse. But of course the BBC want the sensational story headlines and "The Dark Side Of Slaughterhouses" doesn't have the same ring as "The Dark Side Of Racing" does it now? The BBC are supposed to be non-biased so in that case they should show the other side of the coin - The Good Side Of Racing. But no one will watch that or get up in arms about it because it is not what they chose to believe. They want to continue to believe that Racing is the enemy.

I am stepping out of this thread completely now.

The last thing I will say is please, please do find which of your local Racing yards are opening their doors in September and go and have a look for yourself.
		
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I do agree with you that much of the blame here lies with the abbatoir, but I also think the racing industry needs to take some responsibility for where these horses end up. Yes ultimately it is the owners who hold the cards but I also think the racing industry needs to condemn this practice, and condemn it loudly as they did with the Gordon Elliot scandal. 
I have also worked with p2p horses. I'm aware how well many horses are treated in the industry. But more care clearly needs to be shown when they are spat out the other side.


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## paddi22 (20 July 2021)

[QUOTE="Elf On A Shelf, post: 14677200, member: 81440"


The last thing I will say is please, please do find which of your local Racing yards are opening their doors in September and go and have a look for yourself.[/QUOTE]

I totally appreciate since you came on to represent the pro side of racing that you feel totally outnumbered. but I don't get this point. I'd expect to see what I'd expect at any yard - healthy looking horses with good food and bedding and a good quality of life. Even if I arrived at the best racing yard in the world I'd still see horses with physical issues from being broken too young, horses that aren't fitted correctly with saddles, horses with vices from incorrect feeding etc, horses with physical issues from being worked intensively before their bodies have developed.  I just don't understand at what stage these horses are treated well?  Of course they are fed and groomed and live in nice looking yards, but that's a very low bar to be praising an industry for?


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## fankino04 (20 July 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			This thread has turned into a racing bashing thread when in reality the program was about malpractice in the slaughterhouse. But of course the BBC want the sensational story headlines and "The Dark Side Of Slaughterhouses" doesn't have the same ring as "The Dark Side Of Racing" does it now? The BBC are supposed to be non-biased so in that case they should show the other side of the coin - The Good Side Of Racing. But no one will watch that or get up in arms about it because it is not what they chose to believe. They want to continue to believe that Racing is the enemy.

I am stepping out of this thread completely now.

The last thing I will say is please, please do find which of your local Racing yards are opening their doors in September and go and have a look for yourself.
		
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I'm sorry that you feel we are all bashing racing, I haven't watched the program as I know I couldn't stomach it but even without people talking about it I have been conflicted about my love of racing for a long time. Everyone accepts that they are started too young, everyone accepts that horses are overbred ( this isn't just racehorses, but a horse that didn't make a 5* eventer will have a better chance of a lower level home than a mentally scarred broken down racehorse). My horse of a lifetime was a 6 year old ex racer, she wasn't ever going to be amazing, raced 3 times at Hexham, placed once, fell the last time, obviously injured from her fall as wouldn't jump again, didn't receive treatment and became incredibly violent ( she broke a farriers leg before coming to me). It was a long road to get her to the amazing horse she became and I'll hold my hands up that the 14 year old I was then wasn't experienced enough for her but luckily I had good people around me and wouldn't give up, if I'd been an adult with other responsibilities would I have persevered? Maybe not, maybe I would have sold her to someone I thought was better for her but could have been horrible or maybe I would have PTS I don't know, I do know she shouldn't have come out of racing like that when a simple vet work up could have got her treated and ready for her new life rather than bullying an in pain horse. When I was 16 I worked in a top 2 year old trainers yard and the treatment of their horses was truly aweful, I thought that was in fact what racing was like until I went to mark Johnstone's yard in middleham when I friend was riding for him and saw how happy his horses are, so I know that there are good yards but there are also bad yards and they aren't policed enough


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## paddi22 (20 July 2021)

I apologise for coming across rant on this thread, but it's so heartbreaking to be on the other side of it dealing with what is ostensibly a 'waste product' of an industry that gets away with turning a blind eye to it and constantly states that they 'love horses'. In a few weeks I'll have to make a call on what exracers can realistically be re-homed. The other sweet beautiful ones will politely follow me onto a box to be PTS by a huntsman because physically or mentally they could not cope with the system that produced them. Charities and rehoming people are left to cover the vets costs and physio costs out of their own pocket, while the owners just buy a fresh new batch to destroy. It is truly heartbreaking.  And these are horses that I'm 100% sure were shiny and well fed  on a beautiful yard being cared for by grooms who were fond of them. But they still come out the other end with such a slim chance at a good life.


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## NinjaPony (20 July 2021)

This thread is really summarising for me why I have an issue with the racing industry. It’s just so wasteful, I really feel these beautiful animals deserve better. If there’s hundreds of thousands of pounds to be spent on buying the horses and training them, the least anyone can do is give them a chance at a second career or a dignified end. Personally I think the whole industry needs a major overhaul but doubt that will ever happen with the amount of money involved.


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## Goldenstar (20 July 2021)

milliepops said:



			definite shenanigans, the number that they said had chips registered to different horses in their necks was a bit of an eye opener.
		
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that was the most interesting bit but they just kind of left that .
That is  clear evidence of fraud .


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## Jim bob (20 July 2021)

I have a ex race who was passed around a bit from the history I have dug up. However I will say, the trainer was very good. He went out in the field everyday with his friend, when they got him Yes they did back himbut hacked him out for a year so he could grow. So he didn't start racing on the track til he was almost 4. They wanted to find him a good home as he was a yard fave. Sadly he ended up been passed around as he was a young sharp boy who was and still is a worrier. However I have had him for the last 8 years, He was a handful even when I got him. But he got good care as a racehorse. I have bother his breeder and trainer on fb and his trainer even popped to see him recent.


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## fankino04 (20 July 2021)

So this just popped up on my Facebook..
https://www.change.org/p/the-food-s...cbdf08092505&utm_content=fht-29970806-en-gb:0


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## Lipglosspukka (20 July 2021)

fankino04 said:



			So this just popped up on my Facebook..
https://www.change.org/p/the-food-standards-agency-the-closure-of-f-drury-sons-ltd-the-abattoir-in-swindon-for-cruelty-to-horses?recruiter=false&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=c52ba540-e966-11eb-bd5f-cbdf08092505&utm_content=fht-29970806-en-gb:0

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Yeah I'm not signing that.


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## splashgirl45 (20 July 2021)

if its closed down that makes even fewer places for animals,  surely its the people that need prosecuting for animal cruelty , i couldnt have watched it as the images would have stayed with me, it has upset me enough without watching..but i think it would be better to go after the individual people so they cant work in an abbatoir again


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## Keira 8888 (20 July 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			if its closed down that makes even fewer places for animals,  surely its the people that need prosecuting for animal cruelty , i couldnt have watched it as the images would have stayed with me, it has upset me enough without watching..but i think it would be better to go after the individual people so they cant work in an abbatoir again
		
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Absolutely agree with you x


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## fankino04 (20 July 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			if its closed down that makes even fewer places for animals,  surely its the people that need prosecuting for animal cruelty , i couldnt have watched it as the images would have stayed with me, it has upset me enough without watching..but i think it would be better to go after the individual people so they cant work in an abbatoir again
		
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I'm a bit torn between there needing to be more places so horses travel less or just no places so the local knackerman or vet is called out and job done at home with unstressed horse. Obviously no horse abattoirs in the UK means no horsemeat from here if you ban live international export but if Bute isn't supposed to enter the food chain then there shouldn't be any horses in the food chain. I can see the argument for both and as a vegan am definitely conflicted but this place definitely needs something doing about it (not sure if shut down or something else)


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## Odyssey (20 July 2021)

paddi22 said:



			I apologise for coming across rant on this thread, but it's so heartbreaking to be on the other side of it dealing with what is ostensibly a 'waste product' of an industry that gets away with turning a blind eye to it and constantly states that they 'love horses'. In a few weeks I'll have to make a call on what exracers can realistically be re-homed. The other sweet beautiful ones will politely follow me onto a box to be PTS by a huntsman because physically or mentally they could not cope with the system that produced them. Charities and rehoming people are left to cover the vets costs and physio costs out of their own pocket, while the owners just buy a fresh new batch to destroy. It is truly heartbreaking.  And these are horses that I'm 100% sure were shiny and well fed  on a beautiful yard being cared for by grooms who were fond of them. But they still come out the other end with such a slim chance at a good life.
		
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This with bells on! The appalling end endured by the poor horses that end up in badly run abattoirs is just the final insult to them when they're no longer of use to those who supposedly love them! Even if the horses are in training at the best yards, the endemic welfare issues can't be disputed, they're ridden and expected to perform in a very damaging way for their immature bodies (and minds). The horses are a disposable commodity, however loved they might be by their grooms, who look after them to the best of their ability in a system that's purely for the benefit of their owners and trainers, not the horses.

Thank goodness for the charities who pick up the pieces for a fraction of the discarded horses, but they shouldn't have to do this job, and make heartbreaking decisions to have to put horses down. It's the same issue as in greyhound racing, but luckily for the dogs they make fantastic pets, even for novice owners, so at least the majority now stand a good chance of finding loving homes when their racing days are over. I've now got my 5th. If only this was the case for TB's, which are vastly overbred to produce a few winners.


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## Jim bob (20 July 2021)

Ok I have just watches it. First thing. What the he'll is that guy doing with a rifle!?! So many bad practices going on..
It makes me so angry and upset that these horses. The grey winning over 170k can end up in a abattoir. I aren't saying that horses that win money should have a good life. They all should. But at the same time once that horse is sold by the owner or trainer there is nothing more they can do.


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## Pippin and Poppy (20 July 2021)

I don't think it is possible to slaughter any animal humanely within slaughter house cost constraints.
Any 'process' that requires group assembly of animals for slaughter is bound to result in stress.


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## rabatsa (20 July 2021)

meleeka said:



			I thought that.  Somebody on the inside must have got the chip out of the dead horse then replanted it into the other one?
		
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There is a way to replicate chips.  They do not have to be dug out of a dead horse.  Anyone who has sheep that lose a tag can get a replacement tag which has the same number in the chip.  So the technology is out there and no doubt unscrupulous people have aquired it and put it to their own uses.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (20 July 2021)

Does any one know which horses/owners/ trainers were mentioned?

I know the one who sat on the dead horse was


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## ester (20 July 2021)

Jim bob said:



			Ok I have just watches it. First thing. What the he'll is that guy doing with a rifle!?! So many bad practices going on..
It makes me so angry and upset that these horses. The grey winning over 170k can end up in a abattoir. I aren't saying that horses that win money should have a good life. They all should. But at the same time once that horse is sold by the owner or trainer there is nothing more they can do.
		
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you might want to read the link I posted earlier.


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## Polos Mum (20 July 2021)

ester said:



			re. choice of gun, others might find this interesting.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0309174015300346#bb0170

Not particularly safe use noted.
		
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I appreciate this study is on the physical impact of the projectile and how this makes sense - but to use a long barrel doesn't it need two people one to hold the horses head and one to use the gun?   I can't see how you can stand close enough with a long gun to keep a horse calm and relaxed and get it at the right angle. 

All his waving about seemed to suggest he was struggling with the same physics. 

Sadly seen too many with the pistol and it seems much less intrusive and less stressful to the horse vs. a larger rifle.


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## Wishfilly (20 July 2021)

Marigold4 said:



			Not sure I can bear to watch but apparently it exposes the fact that thousands (yes it says thousands) of racehorses, including many young horses and previously successful horses, are sent to slaughterhouses each year. When will action be taken to stop this cruel and awful wastage in this industry? Never - because the betting industry is too powerful? At least something is being said in the programme about the dark side of what actually goes on. It's too often swept under the carpet and the general public's perception is that racing is a fun day out with lovely hats.
		
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Over 4000 thoroughbred foals are born in GB each year, and nearly double that in Ireland- clearly they don't all go on to be successful racehorses or find pet homes, so what did you think happened to them? And honestly, a clean death in a slaughterhouse is not the worst outcome for these animals.

I have long said the wastage in the thoroughbred industry is far worse than the "high profile" deaths on the tracks- the scale of it is staggering. 

The only thing I'm surprised about is that people are surprised. 

No-one is going to stop wealthy studs from breeding so many foals each year, so this will continue to happen- I'm not convinced it's even that linked to betting, because most of these animals will never see a racetrack, and even now there is not the demand for thousands of unbacked thoroughbred youngsters every year.


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## Jim bob (20 July 2021)

ester said:



			you might want to read the link I posted earlier.
		
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Fair point! I have only ever known it be done with captive bolt or pistol


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## honetpot (20 July 2021)

fankino04 said:



			I'm a bit torn between there needing to be more places so horses travel less or just no places so the local knackerman or vet is called out and job done at home with unstressed horse. Obviously no horse abattoirs in the UK means no horsemeat from here if you ban live international export but if Bute isn't supposed to enter the food chain then there shouldn't be any horses in the food chain. I can see the argument for both and as a vegan am definitely conflicted but this place definitely needs something doing about it (not sure if shut down or something else)
		
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There are very few horses fit for human consumption, but there is a market in animals for rendering, so although it does cost the owner money to have them shot at home, at the moment you can, 'shop around'. The last pony I had euthanised, ten minutes before he was rubbing his bum on a tree in the paddock, and it cost me £140, booked in.
   I think most people have a huge problem with actively ending an animal's life, a lot of people who go racing or even own a race horse, its a social thing, a nice day/evening out, where you get dressed up, it's easier to think that they go to, a farm, and live a lovely life, than have that conversation, the horse is coming out of training, is it better to have it euthanised? I could have bought for a nominal amount several flat horses, out of training, people think they are being kind to the horse, just like the people who are selling their horses for £500 on Preloved, think they are giving an animal they love a chance, when really its a fairy story they tell themselves to make them feel better.
  Ex racers are by product of an industry, just like the dairy industry has had to face up to the shooting of bull dairy calves and find solutions, you would think that the racing governing bodies, who have an immense amount of control would have started tackling the problem, and retraining is only a very small part of the solution.


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## Wishfilly (20 July 2021)

Also, just to add to my previous post, I think a lot of these animals are not OTTBs or RoR in the traditional sense, although they may have been in training for a brief period. 

A lot will be nice-ish young horses that could theoretically go on to be a nice riding horse for someone, but it is the sheer numbers. Due to a previous job, I'm aware of how many young, unnamed (which means they haven't raced or come near racing) horses are sent to slaughter each week. Obviously I don't know how healthy they are, but I would imagine a lot are perfectly healthy, and as I say could have a nice life elsewhere- but I don't think anyone has the capacity to rehome 20-30+ young thoroughbreds each week!

The other side of this is that it's mainly the males who go to slaughter at a young age. The females will often be sold as low end broodmares- perpetuating the cycle. 

If you wanted to solve this, having proper standards and gradings and restrictions on what can be registered as a thoroughbred broodmare might be a start. Restrict stallions to say, 50 coverings a year. Have restrictions on which stallions can be registered.

And I think it's the studs who ought to be held responsible- I know some (Darley/Goldophin obviously) do a lot to find the ones who don't make it homes. But they're also still churning out foals every year with no sustainable future.


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## meleeka (20 July 2021)

I do think most racehorse owners manage to not think about ending an animals life, hence why they are passed to “dealers” to dispose of.  That was what they said happened in Ireland in the programme.  Those of us who are responsible owners understand that sometimes it’s the kind thing to do and that there are worse things than can happen to them.  Hopefully some owners have now realised what the responsible thing to do is.


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## Tiddlypom (20 July 2021)

British Horseracing Authority holds talks after slaughterhouse investigation https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57902663

_'The British Horseracing Authority (BHA) has called for a UK abattoir to change its practices after a BBC Panorama investigation found evidence of race horses experiencing cruel deaths there.'_

_'BHA's welfare director James Given said: "We're all clear that the transporting of horses from Ireland to be euthanised in Britain must stop. So too should those practices in the abattoir featured in the programme, which appeared to cause distress to horses."'

'Horse Racing Ireland said it unreservedly condemned the practices shown in the footage from the abattoir.'_


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## Wishfilly (20 July 2021)

meleeka said:



			1.4m given by the industry towards rehoming racehorses!! That’s a miniscule amount of the money being made in the industry.
		
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That's very roughly £127 per foal born last year- which in terms of costs of keeping a horse in e.g. a rehoming centre is not going to go very far. Obviously not every foal born will need to be rehomed, but it gives some idea of the scale.


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## ester (20 July 2021)

Polos Mum said:



			I appreciate this study is on the physical impact of the projectile and how this makes sense - but to use a long barrel doesn't it need two people one to hold the horses head and one to use the gun?   I can't see how you can stand close enough with a long gun to keep a horse calm and relaxed and get it at the right angle.

All his waving about seemed to suggest he was struggling with the same physics.

Sadly seen too many with the pistol and it seems much less intrusive and less stressful to the horse vs. a larger rifle.
		
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It was my impression from previous 'stuff' that a long barrel was favoured not sure why but they must have a reason given that it is a bit unwieldy.


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## ester (20 July 2021)

I'm not sure people are surprised are they? I'm not, better that than they end up doing the rounds sold as novice rides by the bin end dealers while physically crocked but better not to have to do either at all and shoot them at home.


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## Wishfilly (20 July 2021)

Actually, I do think the industry as a whole is responsible for the wastage. Yes, a lot of training yards look after their horses really well- probably better than many pet homes. But they are still feeding an industry where lots of young healthy horses are seen as "natural wastage". 

I think a lot of people in racing look the other way to what goes on and say it's not their responsibility. 

But then I left the industry partly because of what happens to horses that "don't make the grade".



ester said:



			I'm not sure people are surprised are they? I'm not, better that than they end up doing the rounds sold as novice rides by the bin end dealers while physically crocked but better not to have to do either at all and shoot them at home.
		
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Personally, I think better they weren't born in the first place if their best possible outcome is either shot or bin end dealer, etc.


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## LadyGascoyne (20 July 2021)

Stocktake everything that went through slaughter houses within a year of retiring from racing and fine the breeder, or importer if foreign. They can pass charges onto owners should they need to, and push the price of horses up which can’t be a bad thing.

Grade and restrict stallions and mares.

Charge owners a ROR surcharge for every horse they have in racing. Racing syndicates should have a named individual responsible for welfare. Selling off shares of horses should be limited, it only exacerbates the ownership without responsibility issue. 

4000 foals a year is a lot of foals for the amount in racing.


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## palo1 (20 July 2021)

ozpoz said:



			Tops spec Vet of the Year, Natalie McGoldrick has just written a brave post on Facebook saying how much she hated her time as a vet, in slaughterhouses. The horses were all terrified, without exemption, and so were cows and sheep.
I wish this was banned, and a humane destruction at home was compulsory.
		
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I so agree with this and have never understood why horses at least can't be humanely destroyed at their place of residence, whether that be private, livery, race yard etc.  Of course some folk would cheat on that of course but it should be possible, relatively easy to legislate and so, so much more humane than transport, often for hours to an abbatoir.  There is simply no need for horses to have to go to an abbatoir.  On that note, we do need more abbatoirs so that any animal for slaughter has less far to travel.  The programme last night shone a nasty light on some elements of racing but a far grimmer light on our attitudes and organisation of death and disposal of animals generally.  All owners of horses should be prepared, truly prepared; financially and emotionally to stand by their animals and see them safely, humanely euthanised at the end of their days.   Racing has a lot of problems and there are also far too many people prepared to move horses on where those horses should actually just have a dignified end in a decent situation.


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## palo1 (20 July 2021)

littleshetland said:



			But surely the people in the racing industry know and have known for a long time about what really goes one and yet nothing has changed for years.
		
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Yes, but making content that is inaccurate, if only by suggestion makes it laughable.  I am furious that the BBC has been so casually dire when raising these issues is important.  If there was a programme about racing greyhounds and a wiry lurcher kept featuring it would probably seem more clear but anyone working with horses can tell the difference between a coloured warmblood and a TB.  It's just shoddy programme making and the subject deserves both greater accuracy and attention to detail.


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## palo1 (20 July 2021)

Errin Paddywack said:



			I am struggling to understand the point of transplanting a microchip from a dead horse into a live one.  Surely that would be on record as a dead horse, you couldn't claim it was the horse that was already known to be dead.  Am I missing something?
		
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Record checking of equine passports is...non-existant in my experience.  I have never been asked for a passport to record prescribed bute (nor to check that my horses are signed out of the food chain which they all are).  I have passports going back a number of years here.  Removing a microchip is child's play for someone who has motivation to do that.


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## criso (20 July 2021)

My vets are very good at checking, they tend to have a quick look when doing vaccinations and if it's not my regular vet will check when prescribing.  

My previous tb  had a French passport and that had 2 pages:- one that said destined for the food chain one that said not so we had to be careful with our est and n'est pas when checking where to sign.


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## palo1 (20 July 2021)

I am reluctant to raise this but watching the programme was dire in lots of ways.  I did wonder if the reason why the 2 horses were in the kill room together though was because they couldn't be safely or humanely separated and the vet made the call that the two should go in together rather than continue to stress them by trying and failing to separate them/lead them away from each other.  That thought is frankly heart breaking for me.    I know that there are vets who will be desperately lacking in compassion doing this job but what was recorded was obviously illegal.   Yet everybody on that few frames was organised about it so I did wonder if perhaps, in spite of everything there may be reasons why those two horses were together.  I don't think it takes a huge leap of imagination or understanding to know that at times 2 horses would be utterly panic-stricken to be separated.  I also think it may be virtually impossible at times to get a horse in the right position in that situation to use the right way of dispatch and that the vet and other people must have questioned and possibly sanctioned the use of shooting some horses from a distance for safety reasons.  Panorama didn't address any of those issues at all but used them to present an audience pulling bit of cheap programme making.     It is just terribly, horribly sad really.  Racing has problems, TB breeding and disposal is certainly one of those.  Our system of abbatoirs and the way we turn away, culturally speaking, from facing up to the deaths that we directly and indirectly cause through animal farming and leisure have a huge part to play in this sorry business.   I certainly didn't think what the BBC aired deserved the title 'The Dark Side of Racing'.  It is far more embedded than just racing.


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## DabDab (20 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			Record checking of equine passports is...non-existant in my experience.  I have never been asked for a passport to record prescribed bute (nor to check that my horses are signed out of the food chain which they all are).  I have passports going back a number of years here.  Removing a microchip is child's play for someone who has motivation to do that.
		
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I think that highlights the varying levels of compliance from even by now pretty established regulation - my vets have never so much as looked at one of my horses over the stable door without having the passport in their hand first. 

There is so much exceptionalism in every part of horse industry that going back 10-15 years I would have said that it is almost impossible to enforce any form of regulation in any part of it. But I have been surprised in the last few years that things do seem finally to be changing. I never thought I would see the day when the majority of UK yards abided by UK labour laws, and while we are not there yet, I do think it is possible now. So who knows, maybe the industry does have the ability to change. Racing is certainly the one that has the money to lead the way. A national, properly regulated re-home scheme would be a good start, and an end of travel to slaughter for those that can't be rehomed.


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## ycbm (20 July 2021)

Mine check.  I have heard of  vets who will not take on horses unless their passports have been signed out of the food chain,  so they have no need to ask for any passport on subsequent visits. 
.


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## palo1 (20 July 2021)

ycbm said:



			Mine check.  I have heard of  vets who will not take on horses unless their passports have been signed out of the food chain,  so they have no need to ask for any passport on subsequent visits.
.
		
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Perhaps that is why mine never get checked and my vet doesn't ask to see the passport routinely though it's always there for vaccs in any case.


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## TheMule (20 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			I am reluctant to raise this but watching the programme was dire in lots of ways.  I did wonder if the reason why the 2 horses were in the kill room together though was because they couldn't be safely or humanely separated and the vet made the call that the two should go in together rather than continue to stress them by trying and failing to separate them/lead them away from each other.  That thought is frankly heart breaking for me.    I know that there are vets who will be desperately lacking in compassion doing this job but what was recorded was obviously illegal.   Yet everybody on that few frames was organised about it so I did wonder if perhaps, in spite of everything there may be reasons why those two horses were together.  I don't think it takes a huge leap of imagination or understanding to know that at times 2 horses would be utterly panic-stricken to be separated.  I also think it may be virtually impossible at times to get a horse in the right position in that situation to use the right way of dispatch and that the vet and other people must have questioned and possibly sanctioned the use of shooting some horses from a distance for safety reasons.  Panorama didn't address any of those issues at all but used them to present an audience pulling bit of cheap programme making.     It is just terribly, horribly sad really.  Racing has problems, TB breeding and disposal is certainly one of those.  Our system of abbatoirs and the way we turn away, culturally speaking, from facing up to the deaths that we directly and indirectly cause through animal farming and leisure have a huge part to play in this sorry business.   I certainly didn't think what the BBC aired deserved the title 'The Dark Side of Racing'.  It is far more embedded than just racing.
		
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Absolutely. A bit of sense, the vast majority of horses that go through there are not, and never have been, pets. Most are minimally handled if at all and so the welfare standards (which were presumably put in place on assumption of a horse being handleable) might become hard to follow


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## palo1 (20 July 2021)

TheMule said:



			Absolutely. A bit of sense, the vast majority of horses that go through there are not, and never have been, pets. Most are minimally handled if at all and so the welfare standards (which were presumably put in place on assumption of a horse being handleable) might become hard to follow
		
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Thank you for acknowledging this.  I am not sure how many people watching the programme will have had time or will to digest and consider some of the content fully.  So many questions were raised by it tbh.  I cannot imagine some groups of ponies and horses being remotely simple to deal with to the letter of the law in this situation.  On top of that, clearly the law does not always work in an animal's best interests - viewers were shocked (as they were intended to be) by what was shown yet the killing of horses in abbatoirs, singly is legal.  How does that work when mares and foals or very strongly bonded groups of horses are sent to slaughter?  It makes me feel slightly sick to think of those family groups being dealt with, even entirely legally in a decent abbatoir.  The law and the way we treat and think about animals can be a contributing cruelty and for all the outrage, social media posts etc etc don't necessarily result in real, genuinely meaningful change that will benefit animals.  Another witch hunt against racing is just...weak.


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## luckyoldme (20 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			Thank you for acknowledging this.  I am not sure how many people watching the programme will have had time or will to digest and consider some of the content fully.  So many questions were raised by it tbh.  I cannot imagine some groups of ponies and horses being remotely simple to deal with to the letter of the law in this situation.  On top of that, clearly the law does not always work in an animal's best interests - viewers were shocked (as they were intended to be) by what was shown yet the killing of horses in abbatoirs, singly is legal.  How does that work when mares and foals or very strongly bonded groups of horses are sent to slaughter?  It makes me feel slightly sick to think of those family groups being dealt with, even entirely legally in a decent abbatoir.  The law and the way we treat and think about animals can be a contributing cruelty and for all the outrage, social media posts etc etc don't necessarily result in real, genuinely meaningful change that will benefit animals.  Another witch hunt against racing is just...weak.
		
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How is it a witch hunt against racing?
For the sport to exist they have to overbreed , back and race before they are fully developed
Many horses damaged by that process or horses which don't make it are then disposed of by slaughter.
That's the story of racing. The glitz and glamour of racing has had thousands of hours of coverage...last night the story of the horses they don't want got half an hour
All it did was let people know what happens to the horses when they are no longer fit for purpose.


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## palo1 (20 July 2021)

luckyoldme said:



			How is it a witch hunt against racing?
For the sport to exist they have to overbreed , back and race before they are fully developed
Many horses damaged by that process or horses which don't make it are then disposed of by slaughter.
That's the story of racing. The glitz and glamour of racing has had thousands of hours of coverage...last night the story of the horses they don't want got half an hour
All it did was let people know what happens to the horses when they are no longer fit for purpose.
		
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I didn't suggest that there are no problems in racing - including the ones you mention here.  The reason I called the programme a witch hunt is because the problem is far worse than just what happens in racing.  It is just quite handy to hang the problems shown on racing...that system is just using what exists.  Racing hasn't created the abbatoir system though there may well be other influences on policy etc that lobbying by racing bodies can achieve but that is not what the programme was about.  There are very real issues with the over production and disposability of thoroughbred horses destined for racing but this programme was really about poor practice in abbatoirs.   Some of that poor practice was not remotely explained, some of it was very clearly just dire; the keeping of horses with serious injuries, the apparent non-adherence to the law etc.  Racing represents probably the wealthiest sector of equestrianism here in the UK yet racehorses sink to the bottom of the dealers/owners/keepers heap quite easily.  It is a systemic problem compounded by attitudes at both ends of the compassion spectrum (if you like) - where one end sees that there must be a process for 'efficient' disposing of unwanted animals (not my terms or my view tbh) and that as long as that process is legally compliant that is ok and the other end that doesn't want to see any negative intervention or association with any animal's life.   I can't imagine anyone on this forum admitting to not standing by their horses when it comes to the end of the road in either health or ridden terms but abbatoirs see thousands of unwanted horses every year.  They are not all from racing.   I just think it feels like a really cynical form of click bait from the Beeb.


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## luckyoldme (20 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			I didn't suggest that there are no problems in racing - including the ones you mention here.  The reason I called the programme a witch hunt is because the problem is far worse than just what happens in racing.  It is just quite handy to hang the problems shown on racing...that system is just using what exists.  Racing hasn't created the abbatoir system though there may well be other influences on policy etc that lobbying by racing bodies can achieve but that is not what the programme was about.  There are very real issues with the over production and disposability of thoroughbred horses destined for racing but this programme was really about poor practice in abbatoirs.   Some of that poor practice was not remotely explained, some of it was very clearly just dire; the keeping of horses with serious injuries, the apparent non-adherence to the law etc.  Racing represents probably the wealthiest sector of equestrianism here in the UK yet racehorses sink to the bottom of the dealers/owners/keepers heap quite easily.  It is a systemic problem compounded by attitudes at both ends of the compassion spectrum (if you like) - where one end sees that there must be a process for 'efficient' disposing of unwanted animals (not my terms or my view tbh) and that as long as that process is legally compliant that is ok and the other end that doesn't want to see any negative intervention or association with any animal's life.   I can't imagine anyone on this forum admitting to not standing by their horses when it comes to the end of the road in either health or ridden terms but abbatoirs see thousands of unwanted horses every year.  They are not all from racing.   I just think it feels like a really cynical form of click bait from the Beeb.
		
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No other discipline has quite the same public following though.
I'm going to be honest here and admit I hate the idea of any horse having to go for slaughter...from when I was very young and had to say goodbye to a horse I loved knowing where she was going. That might colour my judgement here but the hypocrisy of racing revolts me. The elegant polished race days they want to show off to the world and then the real price the horses pay which they want to hide. 
I think the people who are interested in racing have every right to know the full truth..but I also know that most won't care.
Most will make little comments on social media with a few emojis and forget all about it.
Selfishly on my part I'm just relieved that other people feel the same way I do .


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## Orangehorse (20 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			I just wanted to add that I bought my nephew shares in a racehorse for a gift this year.  As an 'owner' (well, purchaser!) even in a small syndicate it wouldn't trouble me to have had to pay a 'pension' fee or to pay a proportion more for the share in the horse to help secure it either a healthy period of retirement or to contribute to a genuinely decent end.   That is a system that could be put in place reasonably easily I think.
		
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I own shares in some racehorses and there is a sum in the annual price that is put towards a "retirement fund."


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## Wishfilly (20 July 2021)

I guess "The dark side of racing" is a bit catchier than "The dark side of the thoroughbred breeding industry"- they two are linked but not quite the same, obviously.

Obviously racing creates the breeding industry, but they are separate. 

There's a lot of people making money out of young thoroughbreds before they ever see a trainers' yard in some cases. In a lot of cases, they sort of require volume to make a profit, and there is 100% an expectation of "wastage".

These people aren't trainers, and I do think most training yards have a high standard of welfare and try their best for horses who are retiring or haven't quite made the grade. Not every yard, obviously, but a lot. I do also think they are a bit wilfully blind to what happens to the TBs who never make it to them, though. 

Ultimately, you just have to look at the numbers- 14,000 horses in training in GB. Over 4000 foals born a year (and 1000s more imported from Ireland). It doesn't take much to see this doesn't add up. 

I don't know how many TBs per year are unwanted for racing under rules, amateur racing, and to go straight back into breeding, or were deliberately bred for another purpose (e.g. eventing) - but Weatherbys (for example) could easily work this out. And if there aren't (say) 1000 "pet" homes a year for these horses who become unwanted around, say, age 4, then steps need to be taken to reduce the number of foals born each year.


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## Zuzan (20 July 2021)

Wishfilly said:



			I guess "The dark side of racing" is a bit catchier than "The dark side of the thoroughbred breeding industry"- they two are linked but not quite the same, obviously.

Obviously racing creates the breeding industry, but they are separate.

There's a lot of people making money out of young thoroughbreds before they ever see a trainers' yard in some cases. In a lot of cases, they sort of require volume to make a profit, and there is 100% an expectation of "wastage".

These people aren't trainers, and I do think most training yards have a high standard of welfare and try their best for horses who are retiring or haven't quite made the grade. Not every yard, obviously, but a lot. I do also think they are a bit wilfully blind to what happens to the TBs who never make it to them, though.

Ultimately, you just have to look at the numbers- 14,000 horses in training in GB. Over 4000 foals born a year (and 1000s more imported from Ireland). It doesn't take much to see this doesn't add up.

I don't know how many TBs per year are unwanted for racing under rules, amateur racing, and to go straight back into breeding, or were deliberately bred for another purpose (e.g. eventing) - but Weatherbys (for example) could easily work this out. And if there aren't (say) 1000 "pet" homes a year for these horses who become unwanted around, say, age 4, then steps need to be taken to reduce the number of foals born each year.
		
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And the same goes for the continental warmblood breeding programmes too ..  the difference is they are less squeamish about horsemeat.


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## TheMule (21 July 2021)

Zuzan said:



			And the same goes for the continental warmblood breeding programmes too ..  the difference is they are less squeamish about horsemeat.
		
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Absolutely- it is common practice to overbreed and then cull your weakest stock.
We need to accept this reality because not every horse that is bred can stay in the same home being loved forever- a number of them will be unsuitable due to physical issues or temperament flaws. It is in those horse's best interests to meet a swift, humane end and that is where we really need GOOD abattoirs.

Anyone that still thinks the UK's only horse-meat abattoir should close should watch this channel- 



This is the reality of what has happened in the US since groups like Animal Aid campaigned to ban horse slaughter


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## Steerpike (21 July 2021)

I follow the Horse Plus Humane Society on FB and am absolutely speechless at what happens to horses in the USA, like it or not we need good abattoirs for ALL types of horses.


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## palo1 (21 July 2021)

That video is very upsetting @TheMule.  Those people are clearly incredibly well meaning, compassionate and want the best for those horses but for goodness sake, can someone tell me why they can't get a vet to euthanize the worst of those animals where they are rather than loading them up, again, with a load of strange horses, again for a truck ride?  The horses don't know they may be better off at this point and it is really adding to the toll that has already been taken on them.   They may well receive excellent care when they get to that destination but to my mind at least 3 or 4 of those horses were not fit to travel and should have been euthanised, certainly not filmed and walked out for that.  It made me feel ill and tearful, in spite of the good wishes and intentions of those rescuers.  Maybe I am wrong.  I would like to know how they see that situation.  I wonder if they have homes sorted for these horses too.  Unfortunately the anthropomorphism of one of the group left me completely cold too.  Those poor, poor horses.


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## Tiddlypom (21 July 2021)

It may not have been the most robustly put together programme from the beeb, but it was much more than just 'clickbait'. 

Racing is big, big money. The industry has always known all about what happens to most of their cast offs. The crocodile tears and faux horror being shown now is simply because a light has been yet again shown on the dark side, the one they do not want their punters/income stream to think about, the one they want people to think they are already dealing with their rehoming projects.

Because of the big money involved, there should be no need for the cast offs to be shipped off to abattoirs, the no-hope-for-rehoming cast offs should be PTS at home on the yard. Why aren't they currently? ££££s.

This is a different issue to excess moor ponies or gypsy cobs who do not have the huge financial machine behind them.

Yes, we do need more well run and local abattoirs. We need the equine passport/ID/identification/medication scheme to be much more robustly policed. But racing has the money and the clout to do far more than it currently does, and if it takes publicly shaming it into doing so, then good.


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## palo1 (21 July 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			I own shares in some racehorses and there is a sum in the annual price that is put towards a "retirement fund."
		
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Yes, I have checked the shares in my/my nephew's horse and there is a plan in place for that thankfully.  It should be made clearer really.


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## palo1 (21 July 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			It may not have been the most robustly put together programme from the beeb, but it was much more than just 'clickbait'.

Racing is big, big money. The industry has always known all about what happens to most of their cast offs. The crocodile tears and faux horror being shown now is simply because a light has been yet again shown on the dark side, the one they do not want their punters/income stream to think about, the one they want people to think they are already dealing with their rehoming projects.

Because of the big money involved, there should be no need for the cast offs to be shipped off to abattoirs, the no-hope-for-rehoming cast offs should be PTS at home on the yard. Why aren't they currently? ££££s.

This is a different issue to excess moor ponies or gypsy cobs who do not have the huge financial machine behind them.

Yes, we do need more well run and local abattoirs. We need the equine passport/ID/identification/medication scheme to be much more robustly policed. But racing has the money and the clout to do far more than it currently does, and if it takes publicly shaming it into doing so, then good.
		
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Racing is the most popular sport involving animals so there are millions of ordinary people involved in that system and much personal and government money in that system; yet the will to change things isn't really there.   There are a great many people that know and understand what goes on in reality.  I agree about horses being PTS at home but I know that other people feel that if horses can't enter the market as it were, they will have even less value and thus less care at that level.  I have long felt that a horsemeat trade that was decent would be better in that it would demand that horses were better kept and dealers would be far more accountable etc.  We do have decent standards here for presenting agricultural animals at market and I think horses may be better served under that legislation.   But that isn't palatable to everyone.  In my view, the vast majority of people just don't want to think about anything to do with the abbatoirs, with the realities of the meat trade/meat eating nor any other unpleasant fact of animal keeping/life.  For me, that is where the resistance to change lies.  There are some really hardened, brutal people involved with domestic animals where money is involved but they are probably in a minority.  The great majority of people just don't want to consider the realities, the economics, the values, the systems that exist around animals.  Panorama hasn't challenged any of those things - just pointed at an 'elite' sport and pointed the finger at them and the abbatoir. They haven't exactly identified that it is 'our' (as in everyone involved at every level) problem...


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## ycbm (21 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			just pointed at an 'elite' sport and pointed the finger at them and the abbatoir.
		
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Pretty fair to do that though,  isn't it Palo?  Why would you point the finger at a sheep or beef farmer,  they aren't wealthy people who deliberately overbreed and  send their animals to an abattoir because they haven't hit the jackpot breeding "the one", or race them until they are no use any more then have them shot even if they are still healthy.  
.


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## meleeka (21 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			Yes, I have checked the shares in my/my nephew's horse and there is a plan in place for that thankfully.  It should be made clearer really.
		
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so if the horse gets given to a dealer and sent to slaughter, who gets to keep the retirement fund I wonder?


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## Polos Mum (21 July 2021)

meleeka said:



			so if the horse gets given to a dealer and sent to slaughter, who gets to keep the retirement fund I wonder?
		
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Absolutely this - if people are prepared to commit fraud by counterfeiting chips to get a few £hundred for meat money then they will definitely PTS horses immediately and pocket the 'retirement fund' 
For that sort of scheme to work it would need to be independently administered and you would have yards and yards of lovely TB retirement homes - which don't exist so clearly the retirement fund is rarely used for its intended purpose.

Even when they are rehomed they are given away to people who reschool a bit then rehome or sold for a nominal fee


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## tristar (21 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			Thank you for acknowledging this.  I am not sure how many people watching the programme will have had time or will to digest and consider some of the content fully.  So many questions were raised by it tbh.  I cannot imagine some groups of ponies and horses being remotely simple to deal with to the letter of the law in this situation.  On top of that, clearly the law does not always work in an animal's best interests - viewers were shocked (as they were intended to be) by what was shown yet the killing of horses in abbatoirs, singly is legal.  How does that work when mares and foals or very strongly bonded groups of horses are sent to slaughter?  It makes me feel slightly sick to think of those family groups being dealt with, even entirely legally in a decent abbatoir.  The law and the way we treat and think about animals can be a contributing cruelty and for all the outrage, social media posts etc etc don't necessarily result in real, genuinely meaningful change that will benefit animals.  Another witch hunt against racing is just...weak.

i do think racing has to face up or be made to face up an take its responsibility  for best welfare interests of the animals it produces, the program was about race horses it could have been about any section of horses, but its was made around the destruction of  mainly young horses and brings to the attention of those unaware or aware that life is no bed of roses for the poor sods whose lives are thrown away like a used coffee cup  and the totally inhumane treatment they may be subjected to.

one of the worst things must dealing with feral horses, ponies, another program in that no doubt, anyone who has bought and handled straight off the mountain etc , KNOWS in their heart it must be as bad as it can get, with wild animals they dart and immobilize them before dealing with whatever.
		
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## Michen (21 July 2021)

I have a real issue with some of these "rehoming" places. Cheveral house springs to mind, getting them in for free and selling them within days for £500-£1000 to "forever homes". You can't guarantee the latter, have no real idea of the horse and it's supposedly suitability to be rehomed.


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## paddi22 (21 July 2021)

Yes there are so many dodgy places. Equine Rescue and rehoming was another one that re-homed horses with serious physical issues to novice riders a lot.  There is definitely a need for an official organisation that is professional and transparent in its approach to receiving batches of horses and having trained professionals assess and decide what ones could work.  A massive issue is that even if a horse seems quiet and suitable for rehoming, without a set of back xrays and an extremely thorough vet check, you are still passing on animals with kissing spine or SI issues. A lot of issues only pop up once you start asking an animal to work correctly.


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## Tiddlypom (21 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			Panorama hasn't challenged any of those things - just pointed at an 'elite' sport and pointed the finger at them and the abbatoir. They haven't exactly identified that it is 'our' (as in everyone involved at every level) problem...
		
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We get it. You are Panorama/BBC bashing, which is fair enough.

Doesn't stop the fact that part of the problem, the one that was highlighted on the programme, is with the very well funded Racing industry, though.

There are wider issues, but Racing is one of them, and is the best funded to sort its own dirty washing out.


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## Michen (21 July 2021)

paddi22 said:



			Yes there are so many dodgy places. Equine Rescue and rehoming was another one that re-homed horses with serious physical issues to novice riders a lot.  There is definitely a need for an official organisation that is professional and transparent in its approach to receiving batches of horses and having trained professionals assess and decide what ones could work.  A massive issue is that even if a horse seems quiet and suitable for rehoming, without a set of back xrays and an extremely thorough vet check, you are still passing on animals with kissing spine or SI issues. A lot of issues only pop up once you start asking an animal to work correctly.
		
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Yep and it should be a permanent loan with the horse returning/being euthanised if it cannot do the job.


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## milliepops (21 July 2021)

Michen said:



			Yep and it should be a permanent loan with the horse returning/being euthanised if it cannot do the job.
		
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as well as securing the horse's future that would also possibly make more people consider an ex racehorse. I won't have another because I'm now saddled with the responsibility and bills for a horse that is unable to do any job. it's too much of a risk to take another one. However I'd be happy to have a permanent loan with some sort of safety net, I already have 2 permanent loans from other sources.


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## Lammy (21 July 2021)

The British Thoroughbred Retraining Centre  is a charity I follow and have done for many years. They put a statement on Facebook that I thought I’d post here for those that haven’t seen it.

“ The Panorama documentary was heartbreaking to watch. It wasn't fake news - it was real horses being destroyed in the most unethical manner. 
BTRC formerly the TRC was the first organisation in the United Kingdom that focused on the welfare of Thoroughbreds when they left racing. Thirty years on and BTRC are proud to support British racehorse aftercare by providing a safety net to care for the majority of vulnerable Thoroughbreds in the UK. BTRC wish to promote good practices and educate about Aftercare and work with the Racing Industry, Horse Welfare Board, Trainers, Owners, Breeders, RoR and other retraining centres so that horse welfare is always at the top of the agenda.
However BTRC is not a sanctuary and despite the concerted efforts of our dedicated team of retraining staff a minority of our horses need to be euthanased on welfare grounds - but it is how. The horse is pampered that morning and usually gets a run out in the field before having as many carrots or their favourite biscuits (digestives are very popular) as they can eat. They are given a light sedation before being taken by their trainer, groom and BTRC's Consultant Vet to the field (and any of the team that wish to say goodbye) where we whisper thank you for allowing us to be part of their life and for trying so hard and kiss them on the nose before they are given the final injection. There are tears, many tears and the walk back to the yard is a long and quiet one with an empty headcollar ... it is always before lunch so the team can have a some time to gather their thoughts and have a cup of tea. This is love, this is compassion, this is respect - all horses deserve to have a life well lived and that includes a peaceful and painfree death whenever possible. For many horses and other animals this may well mean an abattoir and many will argue that abattoir's are a vital animal welfare resource for injured and old animals - this may be true but the experience including death should NOT cause the animal further welfare issues and suffering. It is the responsibility of the Goverment and Food Standards Agency to monitor the operating standards at abattoir's to ensure that ALL animals, regardless of breed or type are treated humanely. #becauseweloveanimals 🐎🐮🐷🐑 #becauseweloveTBs ❤🐎#britishracehorseaftercare🇬🇧🐎”

Certainly one of the more heartfelt but sensible statements. And leads to the question why does the racing industry think it’s ok to allow their vulnerable horses to be picked up by a charity and pts out of charity money? The BTRC do extensive vet checks when they intake horses, why can’t owners do these before the horses leave the trainers yard so they know whether the horse is going to be able to have a quality life or not?


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## Michen (21 July 2021)

milliepops said:



			as well as securing the horse's future that would also possibly make more people consider an ex racehorse. I won't have another because I'm now saddled with the responsibility and bills for a horse that is unable to do any job. it's too much of a risk to take another one. However I'd be happy to have a permanent loan with some sort of safety net, I already have 2 permanent loans from other sources.
		
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Well all it would do really is pass the euthanasia back to the charity, whether they removed the horse or paid for it to be done. I don't really envisage the kind of place where Tb's unable to do a job go back to a charity to have a long retirement in a field.


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## milliepops (21 July 2021)

no mine is an unfortunate case, but if he'd been able to hack, for instance, but not do competitive dressage, it would have been better to have that option. if they were subject to some kind of physical assessment before going out then few people would end up with a horse unable to do anything.  Mine was herded into the lorry from the field by a team of grooms, there was no option to "vet" him. something like Mrs J is suggesting could work for private individuals rehoming as well as making sure the stream going to charities had the best chance... and pts cost borne by the owners from the horse's "Retirement fund"  would be best IMO


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## paddi22 (21 July 2021)

milliepops said:



			as well as securing the horse's future that would also possibly make more people consider an ex racehorse. I won't have another because I'm now saddled with the responsibility and bills for a horse that is unable to do any job. it's too much of a risk to take another one. However I'd be happy to have a permanent loan with some sort of safety net, I already have 2 permanent loans from other sources.
		
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yeah I'm in the same boat I'd had a few exracers for my own horses but I wouldn't touch another one if it meant being saddled with the same kind of bills and risk of early retirement like my others. It's not realistic to rehome them to someone who might have one horse on livery and potentially be landed with something that can't work. If there was a safety net as Milliepops mentioned, that would be a huge help. and also realistically a plan to PTS responsibly ones that can't function.

A funnel system to sort them for disciplines would also be helpful. It's quite easy to sit on them a few times and and assess quickly what their potential is for a suitable disciplines might be  based on temperament, scope, bravery, work attitude, conformation.


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## Mule (21 July 2021)

Quigleyandme said:



			Ireland Dispatch. A government select committee was already due to sit today to discuss doping in the horse racing industry; specifically Jim Bolger who is currently banned for four years for this offence. The committee will now also discuss the Panorama documentary because, and I imagine only because, the Irish government provides generous financial support to the industry. €77,000,000 of tax payer support in 2021 most of which is used as prize money which will clearly have a direct bearing on the sort of abuses we have been discussing here. Before I came to live here in 2019, so I don‘t know the detail, there was a similar expose about the woeful welfare standards in greyhound racing, also government sponsored. It caused quite a stink at the time but I don’t know if it changed anything in the longer term.
		
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Do you know why the government subsidises racing? I've know they do but I don't know what return they get from it.


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## milliepops (21 July 2021)

paddi22 said:



			A funnel system to sort them for disciplines would also be helpful. It's quite easy to sit on them a few times and and assess quickly what their potential is for a suitable disciplines might be  based on temperament, scope, bravery, work attitude, conformation.
		
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yes, in that respect the trainer i got mine from was right and they had good insight about aptitudes, mine has lovely paces for dressage and a nice natural balance, as well as quite a trainable brain. they said he would like being a dressage horse, they sent others off to hunt or jump. It's such a shame that he won't stand up to it.


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## palo1 (21 July 2021)

Polos Mum said:



			Absolutely this - if people are prepared to commit fraud by counterfeiting chips to get a few £hundred for meat money then they will definitely PTS horses immediately and pocket the 'retirement fund'
For that sort of scheme to work it would need to be independently administered and you would have yards and yards of lovely TB retirement homes - which don't exist so clearly the retirement fund is rarely used for its intended purpose.

Even when they are rehomed they are given away to people who reschool a bit then rehome or sold for a nominal fee
		
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That really isn't always the case.  So many people I know personally have been supported by trainers to take on ex racehorses and in every case that I am aware of (5 horses currently) the 'fund' has been used to provide a new start: eg scanning and/or treatment of old or current injuries, 'transition' time at the trainer's yard whilst arrangements are made, feed is changed, farriery provided and other things depending on the horse.  All 5 horses I know personally were sent off with a rug, headcollar, new set of shoes etc which doesn't sound much at all and represents little cost but certainly a degree of care about the animal.  A friend of mine takes horses from training, rehabs them and then re-trains as dressage, eventers, RC horses etc.  The trainers and sometimes the owners are definately part of that process and there has always been concern and support for those horses moving out of racing.  I am not denying the scale of the issues highlighted btw, I am just saying that those attitudes, behaviours and outcomes are not wholesale.


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## paddi22 (21 July 2021)

Mule said:



			Do you know why the government subsidises racing? I've know they do but I don't know what return they get from it.
		
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there was a document produced years ago that worked out what return the country gets from racing. like for every euro invested x euro was generated for the economy.  I'll try and find it.


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## palo1 (21 July 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			We get it. You are Panorama/BBC bashing, which is fair enough.

Doesn't stop the fact that part of the problem, the one that was highlighted on the programme, is with the very well funded Racing industry, though.

There are wider issues, but Racing is one of them, and is the best funded to sort its own dirty washing out.
		
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I agree with that!  Racing really must use its considerable money and influence to improve the lot of horses both directly in it's remit but also attitudes in the wider equestrian world.


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## paddi22 (21 July 2021)

_https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20458568.html

The study found that the industry plays a key role in supporting the rural economy, proving 9,500 jobs in the core industry and a further 5,700 jobs in directly related roles, including those in equine science and veterinary, farriers, and horse transport. When off-course betting and secondary employment are included, the total number of jobs supported comes to 28,900.
Close to €200m of bloodstock was sold overseas at public auction by Irish vendors, which, when taken together with private sales, nomination, and keep fees, results in effective exports of over €370m — larger than many other forms of agriculture.
Some 1.3m people attended the 356 race meetings at the 26 racecourses in Ireland last year — second only to the GAA championship in terms of attendance. More than 7,000 Irish people have an involvement in horse ownership and 25% of the country’s adult population have an interest in racing.
Despite the recession of the past decade, the report estimates that over €330m has been invested in breeding and racing facilities and infrastructure, nearly €100m of this from racecourses, with substantial future investment in progress.
Horse Racing Ireland chairman Joe Keeling said the industry needs to focus on ensuring that a long-term funding structure is put in place for the future.
“The headline figures in this new report back up the assertion that breeding and racing in Ireland is a unique industry with a wide rural reach and a sizeable economic impact at home, but also one that continues to set global standards on many of the most important measures for our sector,” said Mr Keeling._


I totally take these reports with a grain of salt. I'd like to see the breakdown of exactly how they get that figure.  Even the figure of 5,700 jobs like farriers/vets. Most of those jobs would exist without racing, I don't know if they roles up all the income generated by them and not just the racing percentage.


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## fankino04 (21 July 2021)

Ok so as we don't breed horses for meat in this country what about the idea that every passported horse ( so every horse) is instantly signed out of the food chain so won't be travelled to an abattoir and will need to be humanely PTS at home by knackerman or vet, for any owners who can't afford this they can complete a means tested thing and then claim on a welfare fund that is paid into by all the equine bodies (propertonate to number of horses bred for their sport) to fund the PTS.


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## tristar (21 July 2021)

cauda equina said:



			'I no longer buy all this NHS overwhelmed stuff'
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...the-nhs-overwhelmed-stuff-why-was-he-clapping

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Lammy said:



			The British Thoroughbred Retraining Centre  is a charity I follow and have done for many years. They put a statement on Facebook that I thought I’d post here for those that haven’t seen it.

“ The Panorama documentary was heartbreaking to watch. It wasn't fake news - it was real horses being destroyed in the most unethical manner. 
BTRC formerly the TRC was the first organisation in the United Kingdom that focused on the welfare of Thoroughbreds when they left racing. Thirty years on and BTRC are proud to support British racehorse aftercare by providing a safety net to care for the majority of vulnerable Thoroughbreds in the UK. BTRC wish to promote good practices and educate about Aftercare and work with the Racing Industry, Horse Welfare Board, Trainers, Owners, Breeders, RoR and other retraining centres so that horse welfare is always at the top of the agenda.
However BTRC is not a sanctuary and despite the concerted efforts of our dedicated team of retraining staff a minority of our horses need to be euthanased on welfare grounds - but it is how. The horse is pampered that morning and usually gets a run out in the field before having as many carrots or their favourite biscuits (digestives are very popular) as they can eat. They are given a light sedation before being taken by their trainer, groom and BTRC's Consultant Vet to the field (and any of the team that wish to say goodbye) where we whisper thank you for allowing us to be part of their life and for trying so hard and kiss them on the nose before they are given the final injection. There are tears, many tears and the walk back to the yard is a long and quiet one with an empty headcollar ... it is always before lunch so the team can have a some time to gather their thoughts and have a cup of tea. This is love, this is compassion, this is respect - all horses deserve to have a life well lived and that includes a peaceful and painfree death whenever possible. For many horses and other animals this may well mean an abattoir and many will argue that abattoir's are a vital animal welfare resource for injured and old animals - this may be true but the experience including death should NOT cause the animal further welfare issues and suffering. It is the responsibility of the Goverment and Food Standards Agency to monitor the operating standards at abattoir's to ensure that ALL animals, regardless of breed or type are treated humanely. #becauseweloveanimals 🐎🐮🐷🐑 #becauseweloveTBs ❤🐎#britishracehorseaftercare🇬🇧🐎”

Certainly one of the more heartfelt but sensible statements. And leads to the question why does the racing industry think it’s ok to allow their vulnerable horses to be picked up by a charity and pts out of charity money? The BTRC do extensive vet checks when they intake horses, why can’t owners do these before the horses leave the trainers yard so they know whether the horse is going to be able to have a quality life or not?
		
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Lammy said:



			The British Thoroughbred Retraining Centre  is a charity I follow and have done for many years. They put a statement on Facebook that I thought I’d post here for those that haven’t seen it.

“ The Panorama documentary was heartbreaking to watch. It wasn't fake news - it was real horses being destroyed in the most unethical manner. 
BTRC formerly the TRC was the first organisation in the United Kingdom that focused on the welfare of Thoroughbreds when they left racing. Thirty years on and BTRC are proud to support British racehorse aftercare by providing a safety net to care for the majority of vulnerable Thoroughbreds in the UK. BTRC wish to promote good practices and educate about Aftercare and work with the Racing Industry, Horse Welfare Board, Trainers, Owners, Breeders, RoR and other retraining centres so that horse welfare is always at the top of the agenda.
However BTRC is not a sanctuary and despite the concerted efforts of our dedicated team of retraining staff a minority of our horses need to be euthanased on welfare grounds - but it is how. The horse is pampered that morning and usually gets a run out in the field before having as many carrots or their favourite biscuits (digestives are very popular) as they can eat. They are given a light sedation before being taken by their trainer, groom and BTRC's Consultant Vet to the field (and any of the team that wish to say goodbye) where we whisper thank you for allowing us to be part of their life and for trying so hard and kiss them on the nose before they are given the final injection. There are tears, many tears and the walk back to the yard is a long and quiet one with an empty headcollar ... it is always before lunch so the team can have a some time to gather their thoughts and have a cup of tea. This is love, this is compassion, this is respect - all horses deserve to have a life well lived and that includes a peaceful and painfree death whenever possible. For many horses and other animals this may well mean an abattoir and many will argue that abattoir's are a vital animal welfare resource for injured and old animals - this may be true but the experience including death should NOT cause the animal further welfare issues and suffering. It is the responsibility of the Goverment and Food Standards Agency to monitor the operating standards at abattoir's to ensure that ALL animals, regardless of breed or type are treated humanely. #becauseweloveanimals 🐎🐮🐷🐑 #becauseweloveTBs ❤🐎#britishracehorseaftercare🇬🇧🐎”

Certainly one of the more heartfelt but sensible statements. And leads to the question why does the racing industry think it’s ok to allow their vulnerable horses to be picked up by a charity and pts out of charity money? The BTRC do extensive vet checks when they intake horses, why can’t owners do these before the horses leave the trainers yard so they know whether the horse is going to be able to have a quality life or not?
		
Click to expand...


probably because they are they are the meanest bxstards you are ever likely to meet, and they know exactly what happens to those horses and take the charities for fools


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## tristar (21 July 2021)

paddi22 said:



_https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20458568.html

The study found that the industry plays a key role in supporting the rural economy, proving 9,500 jobs in the core industry and a further 5,700 jobs in directly related roles, including those in equine science and veterinary, farriers, and horse transport. When off-course betting and secondary employment are included, the total number of jobs supported comes to 28,900.
Close to €200m of bloodstock was sold overseas at public auction by Irish vendors, which, when taken together with private sales, nomination, and keep fees, results in effective exports of over €370m — larger than many other forms of agriculture.
Some 1.3m people attended the 356 race meetings at the 26 racecourses in Ireland last year — second only to the GAA championship in terms of attendance. More than 7,000 Irish people have an involvement in horse ownership and 25% of the country’s adult population have an interest in racing.
Despite the recession of the past decade, the report estimates that over €330m has been invested in breeding and racing facilities and infrastructure, nearly €100m of this from racecourses, with substantial future investment in progress.
Horse Racing Ireland chairman Joe Keeling said the industry needs to focus on ensuring that a long-term funding structure is put in place for the future.
“The headline figures in this new report back up the assertion that breeding and racing in Ireland is a unique industry with a wide rural reach and a sizeable economic impact at home, but also one that continues to set global standards on many of the most important measures for our sector,” said Mr Keeling._


I totally take these reports with a grain of salt. I'd like to see the breakdown of exactly how they get that figure.  Even the figure of 5,700 jobs like farriers/vets. Most of those jobs would exist without racing, I don't know if they roles up all the income generated by them and not just the racing percentage.
		
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shame they did not mention the was it 27  million spent on a new stand at the curragh, but have the shame of horses being disposed  and rehomed of by charities and slaughtered away from home


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## Mule (21 July 2021)

Another question is why are so many Irish thoroubreds being sent to a UK abattoir? There are several abbatoirs that slaughter horses in Ireland. Why the need to export them?


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## ycbm (21 July 2021)

milliepops said:



			as well as securing the horse's future that would also possibly make more people consider an ex racehorse. I won't have another because I'm now saddled with the responsibility and bills for a horse that is unable to do any job. it's too much of a risk to take another one. However I'd be happy to have a permanent loan with some sort of safety net, I already have 2 permanent loans from other sources.
		
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Ditto. I was "lucky" that a hot spell exposed just how seriously my racer's neck was hurting him, and PTS. I will never buy another but I would happily long term foster/loan.


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## ycbm (21 July 2021)

Mule said:



			Do you know why the government subsidises racing? I've know they do but I don't know what return they get from it.
		
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Betting taxes are ginormous amounts of money.
.


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## Michen (21 July 2021)

ycbm said:



			Ditto. I was "lucky" that a hot spell exposed just how seriously my racer's neck was hurting him, and PTS. I will never buy another but I would happily long term foster/loan.
		
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I had to literally sit on my hands this week as I have Bear's stable empty and a family friend has a young flat racer that needs rehoming. Thought it could be a great idea to add a 3rd walking vet bill into the mix.

I was so, so close...then common sense came flooding back.

I'd consider an older NH horse- I think there's an arguement that if they've made it to a decent age without breaking then they may be ok..


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## tristar (21 July 2021)

theres great value in older horses who are tough and going strong, of all sorts really, i love an older horse, have a 20 yr old whos tough a s old boots

the younger tbs need to grow on to 8 years and strengthen up


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## ester (21 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			That really isn't always the case.  So many people I know personally have been supported by trainers to take on ex racehorses and in every case that I am aware of (5 horses currently) the 'fund' has been used to provide a new start: eg scanning and/or treatment of old or current injuries, 'transition' time at the trainer's yard whilst arrangements are made, feed is changed, farriery provided and other things depending on the horse.  All 5 horses I know personally were sent off with a rug, headcollar, new set of shoes etc which doesn't sound much at all and represents little cost but certainly a degree of care about the animal.  A friend of mine takes horses from training, rehabs them and then re-trains as dressage, eventers, RC horses etc.  The trainers and sometimes the owners are definately part of that process and there has always been concern and support for those horses moving out of racing.  I am not denying the scale of the issues highlighted btw, I am just saying that those attitudes, behaviours and outcomes are not wholesale.
		
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See to me that seems to early for any 'retirement' fund to be used and are things that should just be automatically covered by the current owners. There's nothing backing them up physically if they turn out to be more broken once they are 'sent off'. It's once they hit that point that concerns me more (and start doing the rounds of multiple homes)


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## Tiddlypom (21 July 2021)

Mule said:



			Another question is why are so many Irish thoroubreds being sent to a UK abattoir? There are several abbatoirs that slaughter horses in Ireland. Why the need to export them?
		
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This has has been rased before on this thread. The answer can only be that there is something very fishy going on - it should not be cost effective to do this, never mind the ethical side 🤔.


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## Mule (21 July 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			This has has been rased before on this thread. The answer can only be that there is something very fishy going on - it should not be cost effective to do this, never mind the ethical side 🤔.
		
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Interesting


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## palo1 (21 July 2021)

ester said:



			See to me that seems to early for any 'retirement' fund to be used and are things that should just be automatically covered by the current owners. There's nothing backing them up physically if they turn out to be more broken once they are 'sent off'. It's once they hit that point that concerns me more (and start doing the rounds of multiple homes)
		
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Yep, you are right about that.  What these horses have is a slightly better ticket out of racing, not exactly a retirement fund.  I think it does help them toward a better future but I wouldn't argue with your point at all.  A big problem with a formalised retirement fund is that why limit it to TB racehorses, especially in view of the warmblood wastage rate? I understand the arguments about money and numbers but philosophically and morally that is tricky.

ETA -If or when an ex-racehorse needed a fund for health/retirement, if that was some way down the line from it's racing career wouldn't that present huge conflicts about who was responsible; should that fund take on, for example, the poor care or neglect of a horse long after racing?  Wouldn't that potentially be a licence for people who didn't have the funds to support a tb to take them on more often, knowing that there might be some comeback to racing?  As it is there are enough horses that have issues with tack, routine care so the last thing ex racers need is to be 'easier' for people without the funds and set up to deal with them.   I get what others have said about a retirement fund encouraging people to take on ex racers but at the same time is that really the best way forward?  In another scenario if racing paid for specific retirement settings for tbs (as in groups of them managed by a racing body) would that be open to problems too?


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## meleeka (21 July 2021)

https://www.racingpost.com/news/wel...ractices-shown-in-panorama-documentary/501314

Interesting article which implies that these practices came as as shock to the head of Welfare.  The Head of the BHA also implies it’s not an English problem, merely an Irish one.  Are they really that naive?!


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## meleeka (25 July 2021)

Good article here https://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/where-now-after-panorama-expose/193382


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## Wishfilly (25 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			Yep, you are right about that.  What these horses have is a slightly better ticket out of racing, not exactly a retirement fund.  I think it does help them toward a better future but I wouldn't argue with your point at all.  A big problem with a formalised retirement fund is that why limit it to TB racehorses, especially in view of the warmblood wastage rate? I understand the arguments about money and numbers but philosophically and morally that is tricky.

ETA -If or when an ex-racehorse needed a fund for health/retirement, if that was some way down the line from it's racing career wouldn't that present huge conflicts about who was responsible; should that fund take on, for example, the poor care or neglect of a horse long after racing?  Wouldn't that potentially be a licence for people who didn't have the funds to support a tb to take them on more often, knowing that there might be some comeback to racing?  As it is there are enough horses that have issues with tack, routine care so the last thing ex racers need is to be 'easier' for people without the funds and set up to deal with them.   I get what others have said about a retirement fund encouraging people to take on ex racers but at the same time is that really the best way forward?  In another scenario if racing paid for specific retirement settings for tbs (as in groups of them managed by a racing body) would that be open to problems too?
		
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I think a specialised home of rest for TBs should be fine. Realistically, it's very hard to prove when a problem was caused- either via racing or via later owners. Many, many raced TBs do turn out to have kissing spines or other similar problems, and I think making it a bit less of a risk for an owner to take one on is not the end of the world. 

A lot of people who would look after a horse well may be put off taking on a horse at 7 or 10 who may need a long retirement, and that option existing for those who prove to have a health condition that makes them field sound but unridable is no bad thing in my mind. And it's not like racing as an industry does not have lots of money available. 

I think the difficulty comes with those TBs who flake out early (and these are often the ones that seem to end up in slaughter). In theory, there ought to be a home out there for a 6yo TB who has never raced.

 Perhaps the investment needs to be in charities which can help to secure both the long term and short term future of horses.

That said, there will never be a charity able to support literally 100s of horses a year, and it's clear there aren't private homes for these horses either. So I do think some restriction on breeding is necessary.

I also think the big warmblood studs (on the continent especially) should do more, but there is not quite the same money available to them (not that they are poor) as there is in racing.


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## Wishfilly (25 July 2021)

meleeka said:



https://www.racingpost.com/news/wel...ractices-shown-in-panorama-documentary/501314

Interesting article which implies that these practices came as as shock to the head of Welfare.  The Head of the BHA also implies it’s not an English problem, merely an Irish one.  Are they really that naive?!
		
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Sorry, but I think this is bollocks. Maybe the actual practice inside the abattoir was a surprise, but the number of horses going to slaughter is only a surprise if they are actively ignoring the problem. And if they know lots of horses are going to slaughter, then perhaps they should take an interest into conditions at the abattoir (whether these are poor or not, I know some people have given explanations of why horses are killed in a certain way). 

I also don't see how they can say this is solely an Irish problem. These horses are being slaughtered in GB. Some are born in GB. They regularly race in GB and will change ownership between British and Irish hands in their lifetime. I don't know the proportion going from British ownership and Irish ownership and British and Irish  homes (whether trainers or otherwise) but I am confident in saying the number going from British homes with British owners is not "none". 

It's easy to close your eyes and pass the blame. It's not easy to do something meaningful about the problem.


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## ycbm (25 July 2021)

meleeka said:



			Good article here https://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/where-now-after-panorama-expose/193382

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Really good essay,  that. 
.


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## Wishfilly (25 July 2021)

Unfortunately, I thought this "Put simply, society won’t tolerate such irresponsibility, and cowardly or cynical opacity won’t make the problem go away." in the closing paragraphs was naive. 

Society is more than happy to tolerate that, and has done for a very long time. 

People get upset when the see a horse breaking a leg in the Grand National, but it's easy to ignore 10 youngsters being sent to slaughter because it doesn't (usually) happen on national TV.


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## Mule (25 July 2021)

meleeka said:



			Good article here https://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/where-now-after-panorama-expose/193382

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Good article


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## ycbm (25 July 2021)

Wishfilly said:



			Unfortunately, I thought this "Put simply, society won’t tolerate such irresponsibility, and cowardly or cynical opacity won’t make the problem go away." in the closing paragraphs was naive.

Society is more than happy to tolerate that, and has done for a very long time.

People get upset when the see a horse breaking a leg in the Grand National, but it's easy to ignore 10 youngsters being sent to slaughter because it doesn't (usually) happen on national TV.
		
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I think social media is changing that. 
.


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## Mule (25 July 2021)

ycbm said:



			I think social media is changing that.
.
		
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Agreed


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## tristar (25 July 2021)

meleeka said:



			Good article here https://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/where-now-after-panorama-expose/193382

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not mentioned in there the contribution of early breaking and racing as a factor re physical breakdown necessitating early destruction of immature horses


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## jofwigby (26 July 2021)

Mule said:



			Good article
		
Click to expand...

The only article worth reading "That’s racing’s underlying shame: it doesn’t know how big its problem is." 
It's really the whole of the UK Horse Industry and if you ask, they laugh, pat you on the head and tell you to go away. The Loss of Use Brand was probably the most effective welfare instrument we ever had, ahhhh happy days


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## RachelFerd (26 July 2021)

So late to this discussion as I was away last week. There are clearly three interrelated stories here.

1. That the abattoir (and proably many others) is not being run to a suitably high standard
2. That there is likely some type of underlying corruption going on here (switched microchips, incorrectly marked passports, not moving horses in line with new NI Protocol/Brexit rules)
3. That the racing industry has a long-standing problem with treating horses as a commodity, poor welfare practices and an inconsistent approach to rehoming/retraining

I'm a former racing industry work rider (10 yrs) and rubbish P2P jockey. I'm also a (mainly) plant-based diet animal lover who owns two super ex-racehorses. I also know quite a lot about customs and international trade through my work. I've got far too many opinions on what I think the industry does wrong and how they could do it better.

Although I no longer go racing or follow racing, i'll always have a desire for them to do the right thing and improve their overarching position on welfare and end-of-racing plans for horses, because the social contract for the continuation of horse racing will also impact the social contract for other competition activity being acceptable and for riding and owning horses to remain something that society accepts.  For us to enjoy our hobbies, we need racing to do the right thing, not get shut down in a media storm. Selfish of me, perhaps.

I think there's some super obvious stuff that the panorama programme raises:

1. BBC is within its rights to create and broadcast investigate journalism. That is a basic tenet of living in a free democracy.
2. Any abbatoir that doesn't meet welfare standards set out should not be allowed to continue to operate in that way
3. Horses shouldn't be travelling across the sea to be killed
4. There are clear corruption issues around failure to mark passports as not-for-human-consumption correctly
5. People must be breaking rules around movement of horses from IE to GB for this to be continuing to happen - so international trade law is being broken
6. It is obvious that the Irish racing authority is beset with far more problems here than the BHA

Now I am a realist and totally get that many horses aren't suitable for rehoming and there are fates worse than death. But death or retirement should be appropriately managed and be dignified.

The racing authorities (I speak largely about the BHA because that is the one that I know in detail, but sentiment would apply to all) need to have an approach which is CONSISTENT, THOROUGH and FULLY TRACKABLE. Every horse that has entered a licensed yard should have a publicly accessible record of what has happened in retirement. Each owner should be paying into a fund to ensure that a basic veterinary and temperament assessment is made to ensure that horses are suitably rehomed. I believe a system similar to the one that runs in Hong Kong would work well.  Each horse would have a soundness work-up with back x-rays before entering a period of either turnout and rest (if required) or going straight into a 2-week temperament and ridden assessment with suitably experienced staff at approved centres. Then you could filter horses into the following groups;

1. Horses that for physical or mental problems should be PTS humanely
2. Horses that have a potential future as a lower level hack or riding club type go into a retraining programme for 1-3 months to help prep them for the likely more novicey rider, and then go onto permanent loan agreements
3. Horses with genuine potential for future affiliated competition careers do not have to enter into the retraining programme (but can do so if owners/trainers prefer), and are available for loan *or* sale to riders who can evidence suitable skill and knowledge to rehome them directly.

There would be a 'get out' clause for specific instances where an owner had a suitable home (with someone who could evidence skill and knowledge) that they wanted the horse to go to directly.

The problem with the current position is that it is a totally random free-for-all with ZERO accountability and traceability. And I've got no idea what RoR are doing with the funds they get (well, I do have an idea... but it isn't worth getting into that argument anyway!)


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## Wishfilly (26 July 2021)

ycbm said:



			I think social media is changing that.
.
		
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How often is this side of racing actually discussed on social media, though? 

There's a lot of people who will come out and slate the grand national, but very few people are aware of the day to day problems around racing in general, let alone thoroughbred breeding more widely.


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## honetpot (26 July 2021)

As above, the back story to this story is to explain why anyone would want to travel a significantly lame horse for slaughter, there are regulations in place and most farmers are very careful about what they send in as they do not want the animal rejected, or be fined. 
There are very specific guidance about how horses should be handled, so the abattoir must have known it was liable for breaking those rules, so there must be a some financial advantage somewhere.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/red-mea...g-handling-and-holding-animals#unload-animals
https://www.farminguk.com/news/nort...00-for-moving-unfit-and-lame-sheep_45332.html


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## meleeka (26 July 2021)

I’ll be very shocked, but not surprised if the abattoir doesn’t face any action.


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## ycbm (26 July 2021)

Would this be it? All guesswork. 

Cost to shoot and cremate £200 per horse. 10 horses £2000.

Cost to transport 10 to an abattoir in one lorry, (paperwork filled out either to be NI origin riding horses for sale valued at £5000 a piece, or temporary crossing for competition), £300.

Price at abattoir £300 per horse, £3000.

Net saving £5000.


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## palo1 (26 July 2021)

Wishfilly said:



			Unfortunately, I thought this "Put simply, society won’t tolerate such irresponsibility, and cowardly or cynical opacity won’t make the problem go away." in the closing paragraphs was naive.

Society is more than happy to tolerate that, and has done for a very long time.

People get upset when the see a horse breaking a leg in the Grand National, but it's easy to ignore 10 youngsters being sent to slaughter because it doesn't (usually) happen on national TV.
		
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Quite so.  It is made very, very easy for all of us to turn away from any unpleasantness related to animal welfare only to demonstrate outrage when those things happening are somehow forced upon us.  If only the vast majority of people who eat meat in ready meals, take-aways, pubs etc would own the process of the meats they are eating, it might mean that people were generally more responsible and more switched on to what happens to animals.   Shrink wrapped chicken breasts and ready meals seem to have an awful cost in terms of conscious responsibility in my view and this whole sorry business of horses at abbatoirs is similar.  I wonder where people thought unwanted race-horses (and other horses) end up?  I wonder what people think an abbatoir is really like?  Most don't I don't think though.  Abbatoirs are necessary if we are to slaughter animals for food and many of them are good.  I have read some utter drivel on faceache about the slaughter-man holding a carrot for the horse to be dispatched (as you may in fact do at home) ; those people are clearly oblivious to some of the realities of equine death at an abbatoir yet they are the ones shouting loudly...it grieves me, it really does


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## Wishfilly (26 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			Quite so.  It is made very, very easy for all of us to turn away from any unpleasantness related to animal welfare only to demonstrate outrage when those things happening are somehow forced upon us.  If only the vast majority of people who eat meat in ready meals, take-aways, pubs etc would own the process of the meats they are eating, it might mean that people were generally more responsible and more switched on to what happens to animals.   Shrink wrapped chicken breasts and ready meals seem to have an awful cost in terms of conscious responsibility in my view and this whole sorry business of horses at abbatoirs is similar.  I wonder where people thought unwanted race-horses (and other horses) end up?  I wonder what people think an abbatoir is really like?  Most don't I don't think though.  Abbatoirs are necessary if we are to slaughter animals for food and many of them are good.  I have read some utter drivel on faceache about the slaughter-man holding a carrot for the horse to be dispatched (as you may in fact do at home) ; those people are clearly oblivious to some of the realities of equine death at an abbatoir yet they are the ones shouting loudly...it grieves me, it really does 

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I think if we are talking about the general public, even among those who follow racing, they probably have no idea of the scale of the problem- I think as you say a lot of them don't think.

I remember when Kauto Star was possibly going to enter second career, there was a lot of outrage from some racing fans about him being "forced" to do dressage, as though it was somehow demeaning to the horse. I think they felt he should have earned a happy retirement in a field somewhere, and that this was some kind of very unusual situation. I don't think there was the understanding that a) retirement of that kind doesn't suit every horse and b) that most racehorses will need a second career and what Kauto Star's retraining could have done for the profile of ex-racers. 

I definitely don't think that people who have a passing interest in racing have any idea about the number of ex-racers, or those who never quite make it, and the scale of the problem. I actually think a lot of them would be keen to help, and if there was some kind of "home of rest" for ex-racers, some might be keen to visit and donate, for example. 

I genuinely think for the average member of the racing public, the idea that any thoroughbred (perhaps even that any horses) end up at slaughter will be a huge shock. 

And I genuinely doubt those without much knowledge of or interest in racing at all ever think about it. 

As you say, a lot of people in this country eat very low welfare meat, and don't really like to think about how the animal may have lived or died.


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## splashgirl45 (26 July 2021)

i think the issue is not just with horses being killed.  the general public need to know where their meat is coming from, how it has been bought up and what sort of end it has.  we are all passionate about horses and we feel upset as horses are sensitive beings but so are all other creatures that are killed for us to eat, even the humble chicken is a little character and those who keep them know... although this country is supposed to have higher welfare customs than others, we are still not good enough IMO,.  every animal deserves a humane end and if prices go up, then people need to support the good practises and buy the more expensive meat /poultry and eat it less often.  i think we need more media coverage of the treatment of all animals... the racehorse industry needs to put much more money into welfare after the track...as there are so many racehorses being sent for slaughter the racehorse industry should shell out for facilities to end their lives in a better way..


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## palo1 (26 July 2021)

Wishfilly said:



			I think if we are talking about the general public, even among those who follow racing, they probably have no idea of the scale of the problem- I think as you say a lot of them don't think.

I remember when Kauto Star was possibly going to enter second career, there was a lot of outrage from some racing fans about him being "forced" to do dressage, as though it was somehow demeaning to the horse. I think they felt he should have earned a happy retirement in a field somewhere, and that this was some kind of very unusual situation. I don't think there was the understanding that a) retirement of that kind doesn't suit every horse and b) that most racehorses will need a second career and what Kauto Star's retraining could have done for the profile of ex-racers.

I definitely don't think that people who have a passing interest in racing have any idea about the number of ex-racers, or those who never quite make it, and the scale of the problem. I actually think a lot of them would be keen to help, and if there was some kind of "home of rest" for ex-racers, some might be keen to visit and donate, for example.

I genuinely think for the average member of the racing public, the idea that any thoroughbred (perhaps even that any horses) end up at slaughter will be a huge shock.

And I genuinely doubt those without much knowledge of or interest in racing at all ever think about it.

As you say, a lot of people in this country eat very low welfare meat, and don't really like to think about how the animal may have lived or died.
		
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Yes,  I am not trying to knock anyone for eating meat btw just for the lack of joined up thinking about our relationship with animals really.  If we engage with animals there are always costs to that and I do feel quite strongly that we have a culture that divorces us from that and increasingly so.  It just seems really important to me for us all to face up to what we contribute to and either accept that cost or change our ways.  The popularity of coloured cobs/traditionals is another area where there is appalling wastage and neglect too as low end breeders churn out the poor things and when they are not sold, where do people think they go? There is a particularly unpleasant hypocrisy or paradox in the racing scenario though - where there is the most money, status and glamour there is also this awful wastage and lack of care for those animals.


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## honetpot (26 July 2021)

ycbm said:



			Would this be it? All guesswork. 

Cost to shoot and cremate £200 per horse. 10 horses £2000.

Cost to transport 10 to an abattoir in one lorry, (paperwork filled out either to be NI origin riding horses for sale valued at £5000 a piece, or temporary crossing for competition), £300.

Price at abattoir £300 per horse, £3000.

Net saving £5000.
		
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  This only works if they are going in the fit for human consumption, food chain. It costs far less to have a horse shot for rendering, as there is some profit in the rendering. I know in Newmarket the JC used to subside horse disposal, for trainers.
https://jockeyclubestates.co.uk/newmarket/equine-disposal-scheme
  You would only get £300, if it has a clean passport, well it should have.
Perhaps will make it less viable, 
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/importi...mal-origin#live-animals-and-germinal-products


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## palo1 (26 July 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			i think the issue is not just with horses being killed.  the general public need to know where their meat is coming from, how it has been bought up and what sort of end it has.  we are all passionate about horses and we feel upset as horses are sensitive beings but so are all other creatures that are killed for us to eat, even the humble chicken is a little character and those who keep them know... although this country is supposed to have higher welfare customs than others, we are still not good enough IMO,.  every animal deserves a humane end and if prices go up, then people need to support the good practises and buy the more expensive meat /poultry and eat it less often.  i think we need more media coverage of the treatment of all animals... the racehorse industry needs to put much more money into welfare after the track...as there are so many racehorses being sent for slaughter the racehorse industry should shell out for facilities to end their lives in a better way..
		
Click to expand...

Yes.  It always makes me really cross that some of those people who are so outraged about aspects of animal welfare are quite happy to go to the pub for steak and ale pie, pork chops, bacon sandwiches etc etc and it sort of suggests that they have no clue about what they are talking about...


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## Wishfilly (26 July 2021)

palo1 said:



			Yes,  I am not trying to knock anyone for eating meat btw just for the lack of joined up thinking about our relationship with animals really.  If we engage with animals there are always costs to that and I do feel quite strongly that we have a culture that divorces us from that and increasingly so.  It just seems really important to me for us all to face up to what we contribute to and either accept that cost or change our ways.  The popularity of coloured cobs/traditionals is another area where there is appalling wastage and neglect too as low end breeders churn out the poor things and when they are not sold, where do people think they go? There is a particularly unpleasant hypocrisy or paradox in the racing scenario though - where there is the most money, status and glamour there is also this awful wastage and lack of care for those animals.
		
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Completely agree with all of this.


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## Tiddlypom (28 July 2021)

Joint statement issued from Bransby and other equine welfare organisations.

_Joint statement from British Horse Society, Blue Cross, Bransby Horses, Horse World, Redwings, RSPCA and World Horse Welfare_

_As welfare charities we were disturbed and deeply concerned by Monday’s (19/07/2021) BBC Panorama programme. It highlighted a number of issues that are not solely connected to racing, many of which the welfare charities have long been trying to bring to public and Government attention._

_It showed horses being transported for slaughter over many miles, across country borders and in some cases while suffering with injuries such as severe lameness, in direct contravention of horse transport regulations. It also showed falsification of passports and failures in the equine ID and traceability system and the concerning treatment of horses in a slaughterhouse._

_The racing world can help to drive improvements and we understand the British Horseracing Authority and other representatives of the industry including the Horse Welfare Board will be meeting to discuss the programme in more detail. However, we believe there are wider questions that need to be answered: why did it take undercover footage to reveal these issues when CCTV is now standard in abattoirs? How we can have confidence that abattoirs are consistently following legislation already in place which is intended to protect animal welfare? How can our equine ID system be shored up to prevent fraud and profiteering from these vulnerable animals at the end of their lives?_

_We would encourage all equine owners to make plans and provision for their own animal’s end of life care and we are calling on the Government through Defra’s Action Plan for Animal Welfare to act on promises to improve our Equine ID system – making sure the system is fit for purpose, enforceable and enforced – and ensure welfare is paramount both in horse transport and during their end-of-life care._

_Please see our recent Britain’s Horse Problem Report for more detail on many of the issues raised by the programme._

_To find out more about Bransby Horses’ advice and guidance on euthanasia, please visit our Equine Advice page_

_



 https://www.facebook.com/221859004523882/posts/4352827314760343


_


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## ycbm (28 July 2021)

honetpot said:



			You would only get £300, if it has a clean passport,
		
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I don't think a clean passport is a problem to people prepared to transfer a chip from a dead horse into a live one.  
.


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## eahotson (28 July 2021)

marmalade76 said:



			If this is the case, the problem is with the slaughter houses and not the racing industry.
		
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Do you not think that the hugely wealthy racing industry can't if necessary fund and make frequent checks on slaughter houses.Its the least they can do for the animals that they bred and used.This is the underbelly of horse sport.


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## ycbm (28 July 2021)

eahotson said:



			Do you not think that the hugely wealthy racing industry can't if necessary fund and make frequent checks on slaughter houses.Its the least they can do for the animals that they bred and used.This is the underbelly of horse sport.
		
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Agreed,  driver could stay to watch them properly shot,  but we are also back round to why can that industry not put them down at home? 
.


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## tristar (28 July 2021)

ycbm said:



			Agreed,  driver could stay to watch them properly shot,  but we are also back round to why can that industry not put them down at home? 
.
		
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they would not have the stomach for that

taking a heathly 3 to 5 y r old round the corner to pop it off


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## eahotson (28 July 2021)

ycbm said:



			Agreed,  driver could stay to watch them properly shot,  but we are also back round to why can that industry not put them down at home?
.
		
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That would be best.


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## marmalade76 (29 July 2021)

eahotson said:



			Do you not think that the hugely wealthy racing industry can't if necessary fund and make frequent checks on slaughter houses.Its the least they can do for the animals that they bred and used.This is the underbelly of horse sport.
		
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Nope, that's DEFRA's job.


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