# Travelling human passengers in a horsebox



## nikkirip (15 February 2010)

Hi all,

I was wondering whether you can help. I am looking into purchasing a 7.5 tonne hosebox and I recently was told that it is illegal to travel passengers in the living compartment and/or will invalidate the insurance. I was wondering whether this was true?

Having used a 4x4 and trailer for over 10 years I have often seen wagons pull up on show grounds with a number of people in the living. In fact, when showing a horse for someone else, I have often travelled in the living.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

Many thanks
Nikki


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## SpottedCat (15 February 2010)

If there is a cut-through from cab to living then you can travel people in it legally. If there is not, then you can't. I have no idea why this is true BTW!


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## Shipley (15 February 2010)

its because of the fact it is two seperate units I.e. the passengers can not comunicate directly if there is a problem strange really as its ok for horses, as I have no cut through I have CCTV to the lorry bit so we can see


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## perfect11s (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
 If there is a cut-through from cab to living then you can travel people in it legally. If there is not, then you can't. I have no idea why this is true BTW! 

[/ QUOTE ] 
 you have to be able to comunicate with the driver!!!!  so either a cut through or a intercom is required


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## R2R (15 February 2010)

I have a window and CCTV so can hear what is going on and see - was stopped by the police who told me it was fine for groom to be in the back with the neddies as the seats were side facing..


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## PeterNatt (15 February 2010)

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!  Latest legislation means that it is completely illegal to have anyone in the container while the vehicle is moving.  The drivers and passengers must be in the cab.  Your insurance will be invalidated if you have anyone travelling in the container.


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## Mrs_Wishkabibble (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!  Latest legislation means that it is completely illegal to have anyone in the container while the vehicle is moving.  The drivers and passengers must be in the cab.  Your insurance will be invalidated if you have anyone travelling in the container. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Where did you get that info?
I would assume they are the same rules for motorhomes and the law says if there are seatbelts fitted in the back they must be used by the passengers otherwise there is no need.
Alot of MH travel minimum of 4 passengers, 2 in the cab and 2 in the back


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## MurphysMinder (15 February 2010)

Slightly o/t but how things have changed.  When I was a child we used to go to shows in a bit cattle wagon, 8 ponies in the back and then about half a dozen of us kids sitting on the luton.  Sometimes we used to plait the ponies whilst travelling.


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## Orangehorse (15 February 2010)

Yep, true about travelling in the back of a lorry.  Quite a useful education too, as you learned how they travelled and what it is like being transported when you can't see where you are going, and just how fast 30 mph is.


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## SpottedCat (15 February 2010)

There are specific rules applicable to children:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/think/focusareas/children/childincar?page=FAQ

But other than that, it seems to say in motorhomes (which is what a horsebox with living is classed as, which is why they can go over the Severn Bridge for £5.40 not the standard lorry charge) that you can travel people in the living.

So I'd like to know where the alternative info is from too please.


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## MurphysMinder (15 February 2010)

I have also more recently travelled in the back of a trailer. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  We were transporting our pony home with a fractured leg (with vets approval) and wanted to be sure she was okay.  It was a real eye opener.  At one point I phoned driver to ask him to slow down as the trailer was really bouncing, he was doing 25 mph  
	
	
		
		
	


	




, it was just a shocking roada surface though you would never know when travelling in a car.


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## perfect11s (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!  Latest legislation means that it is completely illegal to have anyone in the container while the vehicle is moving.  The drivers and passengers must be in the cab.  Your insurance will be invalidated if you have anyone travelling in the container. 

[/ QUOTE ]
 OK  what about prisoner tranport vehicles , buses, trains, motorhomes ???? are they all illegal now!!!??????


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## Bowen4Horses (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!  Latest legislation means that it is completely illegal to have anyone in the container while the vehicle is moving.  The drivers and passengers must be in the cab.  Your insurance will be invalidated if you have anyone travelling in the container. 

[/ QUOTE ]
 OK  what about prisoner tranport vehicles , buses, trains, motorhomes ???? are they all illegal now!!!?????? 

[/ QUOTE ]

dunno about the law around horseboxes, but prisoner transport and buses are passenger carrying vehicles (PCV) and trains, are, um, trains... they don't travel on the road...


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## ecrozier (15 February 2010)

Interesting thread!  I had always believed that if there was a cut through it was ok, if not, not, but from some of the posts above my lorry with a window between living and cab would be ok with for example walkie talkies or something?  Or from PeterNatts post no lorries are ok?  But see so many turn up at shows with people in living!


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## perfect11s (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting thread!  I had always believed that if there was a cut through it was ok, if not, not, but from some of the posts above my lorry with a window between living and cab would be ok with for example walkie talkies or something?  Or from PeterNatts post no lorries are ok?  But see so many turn up at shows with people in living! 

[/ QUOTE ]

 Hopefully peternatt will let us know when this nonsense sorry.. law came in and more details, if true its not good news for familys or anyone with friends 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 or our carbon footprint as some will have to take a car aswell as the lorry


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## ester (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
I have a window and CCTV so can hear what is going on and see - was stopped by the police who told me it was fine for groom to be in the back with the neddies as the seats were side facing.. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that peter natt was suggesting that because the seats were side facing it did not make this lorry legal for travelling passengers as there is no direct contact between cab a living as there is a solid window in the way and I assume the CCTV has no sound.


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## miller (15 February 2010)

Horseboxes don't categorise legally as motorhomes (Severn Bridge will be run as size I presume)

Motorhomes you don't have to have HGV license for if over 7.5t unless you have a compartment for motorised vehicle / bike - classed as living accomodation until then.

Horseboxes have an 'alternative use' to living in so classed differently.

Didn't know new rule as PeterNatt mentioned though - ours has no cut through but we travel in cab anyway - 2 of us


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## ester (15 February 2010)

severn bridge is not run as size, I think it is something david broome has publicised in that if you can show you can live in your living, ie it has a toilet/cooking facilities it is classed as a motorhome.


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## kick_On (15 February 2010)

Surely it down to how many seat in cab you have and seat belts. 
Many moons ago i did travel in the back of box in the tack area of hunting box, NEVER AGAIN, i was the most horrible experience and so unsafe and normally i'm pretty unspookable with vehicles................


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## amandaco2 (15 February 2010)

ive travelled in the back with the horse before- it was dreadful but the driver was an a***.
am not sure about the legality but its defo an eye opener to what the horse has to put up with!


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## Quadro (15 February 2010)

i would have thought it has to do with seatbelts?? and there are no seatbelts in the living compartment?!


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## wizzi901 (15 February 2010)

I have no choice other than to have passengers in back of my living, the cab only has two seats and my mother cannot drive, neither can my 10 year old daughter.  Have cut through and police have never seem to had issue with it?


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## perfect11s (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
i would have thought it has to do with seatbelts?? and there are no seatbelts in the living compartment?! 

[/ QUOTE ] 
There are no seatbelts in most buses..  I think peternatt has got his wires crossed..  Im still sure the law still is you must be able to coumunicate with the driver through a cut thru or by intercom,  I think if the law had changed it would have been reported in H&amp;H beause this would affect a lot of people and there would be a big big fuss


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## SpottedCat (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Horseboxes don't categorise legally as motorhomes (Severn Bridge will be run as size I presume)

Motorhomes you don't have to have HGV license for if over 7.5t unless you have a compartment for motorised vehicle / bike - classed as living accomodation until then.

Horseboxes have an 'alternative use' to living in so classed differently.

Didn't know new rule as PeterNatt mentioned though - ours has no cut through but we travel in cab anyway - 2 of us 

[/ QUOTE ]

That is completely wrong about not needing a class C licence for motorhomes over 7.5T:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_10037875

That is why the Severn Bridge one is NOT about size! The Severn Bridge act states that if one vehicle falls into two categories, you pay the cheaper toll - horseboxes with living are classified as motorhomes under the act, so pay the motorhome fee not the lorry fee. 

If you are driving a motorhome over 7.5T on a car licence you are v definitely breaking the law, sorry.


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## perfect11s (16 February 2010)

Spottedcat , Dosent it Just goes to show what a complicated mess our laws on trafic and vehicles are, and how confused and misinformed people get as a result...


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## SpottedCat (16 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
 Spottedcat , Dosent it Just goes to show what a complicated mess our laws on trafic and vehicles are, and how confused and misinformed people get as a result... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Yes! I agree, it's a complete mess, and there is a lot of misinformation out there. You'd think it would be simple for DirectGov to have a page with a table on it listing each type of vehicle and the associated laws....but apparently not!


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## TrentfieldStud (16 February 2010)

I think this subject needs some research, I know that forward facing seats in the back of motorhomes need seatbelts, and land rover have stopped making the "bench" seats that are sideways on.

On the other hand buses don't have seatbelts??, and you can stand up on the tube!

I can say the Motorhome argument does not wash with VOSA, if its on a 7.5t vehicle, its a commercial vehcile. The severn bridge argument is a separate issue. Running it as a motorhome is a fab concept (No Tacho, No Ops licence etc.). We are lucky to have the dispensation that we have at the moment for a "Private HGV".

However, traveling in the trailer is completely illegal! No grey area there!


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## perfect11s (16 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
). We are lucky to have the dispensation that we have at the moment for a "Private HGV".



[/ QUOTE ] no I think they are lucky... as we pay a lot of money in taxes  and create thousands of jobs in the process of horse ownership 
	
	
		
		
	


	








   Its about time the red tape was cut and busibody jobsworths ...put on the dole


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## cp1980 (26 February 2012)

It's NOT ILLEGAL to carry passengers in the living of a horsebox.  But you could be prosecuted if you have an accident and the seating arrangements are deemed to be unsafe - it's your call.  

The Ministry of Transport have this document from two years ago:

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/travelling-in-horseboxes.pdf

They recommend only allowing passengers to travel on backward or forward facing seats, that the seats are robust and safe and that seatbelts are fitted, to British/EU standards, preferably by a expert (e.g. garage).  

They also remind the reader that as the base vehicle was only designed for passengers in the cab, the insurance company will need to be informed if you have passengers in the living.

Seems all refreshingly commons sense; if you take reasonable precautions it's OK.

Hope this helps.


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## SpottedCat (26 February 2012)

This thread is from 2 years ago - why has it been resurrected?!


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## cp1980 (26 February 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			This thread is from 2 years ago - why has it been resurrected?!
		
Click to expand...

Why not? 

Better to add to an existing thread than to start a new one.  Puts things in perspective.


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## cp1980 (26 February 2012)

Incidently, here is a slightly older thread on the topic:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=269445

Only cost £50 to get seatbelts fitted and an insurance firm said they were OK so long as the design was suitable.  Good to know.


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## mcnaughty (25 April 2017)

Can I resurrect this one again?  Does anyone know the law around horseboxes with living and travelling in the living area?  My lorry doesn't have seat belts in the front and I know this is OK because I took it through its plating recently and the garage had removed the one and only seat belt as it was occasionally sticking so better to take it out that have it fail!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (25 April 2017)

Link here to BHS PDF, go to page 22 for current regs.
Basically if vehicle pre-07, no requirement.

www.bhs.org.uk/~/media/bhs/files/pdf-documents/vosa-horsebox-guide.ashx


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