# The Mollassed Chaff Rant



## Oberon (24 February 2013)

So I keep seeing bags of a local brand of Mollassed chop being delivered to people.

Each time someone feeds this to their horse, an angel dies 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.

It is a mixture of chopped hay, chopped straw, salt, molasses and limestone flour.

It is basically a haynet in a bucket with 15% sugar 

SO to do the math....if you were to get an average 8kg haynet, 15% of that is 1.2kg.....

1.2kg of sugar.







People wouldn't get a bag of sugar and dump it over a haynet, would they???

So why feed the same in a bucket 

And this is coming into spring.......Lami anyone???


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## maccachic (24 February 2013)

I find it funny that plain chaff is labled mollasses free, how about adding grain free, salt free etc??  Should chaff with mollasses just be labled and non mollassed stuff not.

We don't have mollassed chaff (apart from some chop that has it added) over here in NZ or not that I have seen.


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## YorksG (24 February 2013)

Couldn't agree more  What is wrong with feeding forage, without all the rubbish in it? We feed plain oat straw chaff to one good doer to allow her to eat for longer, while rationing her haylage and plain barley straw (long) to the other good doer, for the same reason. They really do not need the molasses, have no idea why it is added to every blooming feed that is made


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## Roasted Chestnuts (24 February 2013)

I try to feed molasses free as much as possible, mine get unmolassed alfalfa. The older horse Im feeding the spi8llers conditioning fibre which has nuts and things in it which apparently has some molasses in the pellets but not on the chaff (very dry) apparently.

My good doer coblet gets molasses free alfalfa, sugar beet and oats/topspec turbo when in work  She is muzzled when on grass during the day and has it off at night every other day. 

They all get hay the good doer gets it soaked in a trickle net the others just get it in the haybox or haynets


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## maccachic (24 February 2013)

It nicely disguses the no so nice bits and marketing dept can assure the horse owner they are providing their horse with a nice treat, like giving a lollie to a kid (or a big mac to an obese person to give them more energy  ).


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## Sussexbythesea (25 February 2013)

Does anyone know what the sugar content of typical hay or grass is by weight? This article is all I could find about natural sugars. I haven't found any useful info for British grown forage. I realise its variable time of  day / year / weather and prob would require specific pasture testing

A snippet from the article - "These grasses were in no way lush," she says. "The grass was dark green, half-dead, and freezing down for the winter with about 40 percent dry matter. When tested, the grass contained 27 percent sugar and fructans. If a horse is eating 20 pounds of dry matter a day, that's 5.4 pounds of sugar and fructan."

http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/nutrition/feeds/fructandanger_032205/

I guess what I'm trying to find out is it really that bad that chaff contains 15% sugar?  and is it that significant if you only feed a scoop (500g stubbs) twice a day compared to the forage ration? I don't really know but try to avoid molassed anything anyway.


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## maccachic (25 February 2013)

This is the best I have found:  http://www.dairyone.com/Forage/FeedComp/disclaimer.asp


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## McW (25 February 2013)

has anyone seen that chaff with vanilla in it? it's in a bright pink bag that looks like my little pony. I can not believe feed merchants sell this, what part does vanilla play in the horses diet?


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## mynutmeg (25 February 2013)

McW said:



			has anyone seen that chaff with vanilla in it? it's in a bright pink bag that looks like my little pony. I can not believe feed merchants sell this, what part does vanilla play in the horses diet?
		
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I've seen it - good marketing towards little girls but wouldn't ever buy it


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## AdorableAlice (25 February 2013)

I have seen a cherrry flavoured chaff.  Since when has a horse eaten cherries ?  My old Welsh D was often seen eating blackberries out of the hedgerow though !


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## Renvers (25 February 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			I have seen a cherrry flavoured chaff.  Since when has a horse eaten cherries ?  My old Welsh D was often seen eating blackberries out of the hedgerow though !
		
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If they sold Blackberry chaff my horses would pester me to oblivion. 

OP, totally agree. Recently, having run out of my usual Simple Systems Chaff and not able to buy more for over a week I went to my local feed merchants and the only sugar/vanilla/apple/molasses free chaff had soya oil on it. Bought it as the least objectionable option.


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## marmalade76 (25 February 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			I have seen a cherrry flavoured chaff.  Since when has a horse eaten cherries ?
		
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I actually found this stuff very useful recently after my horse refused to eat his medicine.


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## TGM (25 February 2013)

Personally I don't feed molassed chaff and definitely wouldn't feed high sugar feeds to overweight or lami prone horses and ponies.

BUT I do have to point out that chaff is not usually fed in haynet sized quantities so your comparison is not really valid!  It would not be my feed of choice, but it is not likely to cause too many problems if a non-lami prone animal is fed a couple of handfuls of the stuff as a token gesture, or to carry supplements or medication as described above, which is how a lot of people do use it.  I wouldn't recommend anyone to use it as a significant part of the diet though.


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## AdorableAlice (25 February 2013)

marmalade76 said:



			I actually found this stuff very useful recently after my horse refused to eat his medicine.
		
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I picked one up in error, my lad would eat his bute if I used the apple chaff but he turned his nose up at the cherry flavour.  The same horse refuses to eat anything with alfalfa in.


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## marmalade76 (25 February 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			I picked one up in error, my lad would eat his bute if I used the apple chaff but he turned his nose up at the cherry flavour.  The same horse refuses to eat anything with alfalfa in.
		
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Mine will eat bute, but this was oral antibiotics and he was having none of it (until I added half a bucket of cherry chaff)!


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## ellie11987 (25 February 2013)

Eurgh don't get me started on molassed chaff/mixes ect. A few months ago, I walked into the feed room and a young girl was adding molasses straight from the bottle into a feed of molassed chaff and pegasus mix . I asked her what on earth she was doing and was told 'oh I was given this and thought I'd just add a few glugs each day until its used'  Que massive rant from me. It didn't help she was feeding this to a 2yo fell do-gooder.


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## Oberon (25 February 2013)

TGM said:



			BUT I do have to point out that chaff is not usually fed in haynet sized quantities so your comparison is not really valid!
		
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It was to try and highlight what 15% sugar really indicates when molasses is a main ingredient of the feed. I wasn't suggesting people feed 8kg of mollassed chaff, more like 1 - 2kg as recommended by the manufacturers....



TGM said:



			but it is not likely to cause too many problems if a non-lami prone animal is fed a couple of handfuls of the stuff as a token gesture, or to carry supplements or medication as described above, which is how a lot of people do use it.  I wouldn't recommend anyone to use it as a significant part of the diet though.
		
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The problem is that I see lots of people feeding it as the chaff alongside a course mix with an equally high NSC content (and I can't rant at them - hence venting my frustration out here )

When does a horse become lami-prone? When it has it's first attack of laminitis.
What was the horse before this? It was non-lami prone. 

It's coming up spring and I wonder how many horses are going to develop lami for the first time? Watch the threads appear over the next few months.....
How many horses will turn from "it's OK to feed this" non-lami horses into "it's not OK to feed" lami horses?

The savvy members of HHO aside, if we adopted a less laissez faire attitude toward feeding in this country, perhaps less horses would suffer ?


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## AMW (25 February 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			I have seen a cherrry flavoured chaff.  Since when has a horse eaten cherries ?  My old Welsh D was often seen eating blackberries out of the hedgerow though !
		
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A pony I had ate cherries and even managed to spit the stones out lol


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## Oberon (25 February 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			I have seen a cherrry flavoured chaff.  Since when has a horse eaten cherries ?  My old Welsh D was often seen eating blackberries out of the hedgerow though !
		
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Buy a bag of dried cherries from the supermarket next time and you'll see 

I haven't met a horse yet who doesn't go mad for them


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## Oberon (25 February 2013)

ellie11987 said:



			Eurgh don't get me started on molassed chaff/mixes ect. A few months ago, I walked into the feed room and a young girl was adding molasses straight from the bottle into a feed of molassed chaff and pegasus mix . I asked her what on earth she was doing and was told 'oh I was given this and thought I'd just add a few glugs each day until its used'  Que massive rant from me. It didn't help she was feeding this to a 2yo fell do-gooder. 

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Did you also tell her she'd just killed an angel too


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## ellie11987 (25 February 2013)

Oberon said:









Did you also tell her she'd just killed an angel too 

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That would have been an idea! I think I was just having heart malfunctions starting at her in shock for the most part. I agree with you, its okay to feed a horse crap when it's not lami prone until it isn't...


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## Goldenstar (25 February 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			Does anyone know what the sugar content of typical hay or grass is by weight? This article is all I could find about natural sugars. I haven't found any useful info for British grown forage. I realise its variable time of  day / year / weather and prob would require specific pasture testing

A snippet from the article - "These grasses were in no way lush," she says. "The grass was dark green, half-dead, and freezing down for the winter with about 40 percent dry matter. When tested, the grass contained 27 percent sugar and fructans. If a horse is eating 20 pounds of dry matter a day, that's 5.4 pounds of sugar and fructan."

http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/nutrition/feeds/fructandanger_032205/

I guess what I'm trying to find out is it really that bad that chaff contains 15% sugar?  and is it that significant if you only feed a scoop (500g stubbs) twice a day compared to the forage ration? I don't really know but try to avoid molassed anything anyway.
		
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Not all the sugar in the grass / hay is aviable to the horse because of the difficulty in digesting grass and hay efficiently but the sugars in molasses are that's the difference.


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## soot (25 February 2013)

When I had a horse on full livery I always bought her own chaff as the only stuff the livery had was molasses!


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## AdorableAlice (25 February 2013)

Oberon said:



			Buy a bag of dried cherries from the supermarket next time and you'll see 

I haven't met a horse yet who doesn't go mad for them 

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You are on, Ted and Alice you are in for a treat !


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## Clodagh (25 February 2013)

It is really hard to find non molassed chaff, I don't mean impossible but you do have to dig.
Nightmare!
I hope soya oil is OK? I am feeding Bailey's light chaff and I'm sure that has soya oil... off to check.

Here tis...
Light Chaff is a blend of high-temperature dried alfalfa and oat straw with a sprinkling of mint and a very light dressing of soya oil

Sorry for small hijack!


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## HaffiesRock (25 February 2013)

Does anyone know the sugar content of Argo feeds? Or any of the nutrition? I cannot find it anywhere. My friend feeds their chaff and conditioning mix, both of which smell very sweet and are sticky. I would not let it within sniffing distance of my pony. Its bare paddock, hay and fast fiber for my fatty and he looks great for it x


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## Oberon (25 February 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			Does anyone know what the sugar content of typical hay or grass is by weight? This article is all I could find about natural sugars. I haven't found any useful info for British grown forage. I realise its variable time of  day / year / weather and prob would require specific pasture testing

A snippet from the article - "These grasses were in no way lush," she says. "The grass was dark green, half-dead, and freezing down for the winter with about 40 percent dry matter. When tested, the grass contained 27 percent sugar and fructans. If a horse is eating 20 pounds of dry matter a day, that's 5.4 pounds of sugar and fructan."

http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/nutrition/feeds/fructandanger_032205/

I guess what I'm trying to find out is it really that bad that chaff contains 15% sugar?  and is it that significant if you only feed a scoop (500g stubbs) twice a day compared to the forage ration? I don't really know but try to avoid molassed anything anyway.
		
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There is sugar and then there is sugar....

Horses are meant to eat a mixture of scrub grasses, herbs, leaves, flowers, weeds etc. It is their natural diet and how they evolved.

But this was tempered by engaging in high energy pursuits such as roaming 15 miles a day, running from predators, breeding, keeping warm against the elements etc.

They were not meant to stay penned in a few acres of lush ex-dairy ryegrass with no variety and stand around doing bare minimum while stuffing their faces. 
Then they get wrapped up warm in a posh rug and treated to a nice bucket feed and a cuddle because they've had a hard day 

When was the last time someone looked after you so lovingly? 

http://www.safergrass.org/articles.html


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## Oberon (25 February 2013)

Clodagh said:



			It is really hard to find non molassed chaff, I don't mean impossible but you do have to dig.
		
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Agree 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.

And this is at the centre of the problem.

We have sleepwalked into a situation where we will buy what sounds good without scrutinising the ingredients and nutritional specs (and I have been as guilty as anyone of this).

We have trusted the feed companies to have our horse's best interests at heart. But like every business, profit is at their heart.

So they have churned out tasty feeds that horses like to eat. If the horses eat it - we will continue to buy it.....

Big Mac anyone? 

And thus it is easier to buy an unsuitable feed nowadays than it is to find a suitable one 

I have to say over the last few years there has been some progress for the better though. Allen and Page and Dengie (off the top of my head) have been trying to flavour some of their feeds with mint/fenugreek instead of molasses/mogolo. Simple System are strictly non molassed too .

If we keep kicking up a fuss and get more savvy about feed - they will listen eventually 

I might add that although I am ranting - I am the most guilty person here.....

I got Obi when he was 4 and I was 14 and I fed him Mollichop and bran before moving onto a molassed course mix.

I fed him what my friend's mum said I should feed because I didn't have the knowledge to evaluate the feed for myself 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.


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## AdorableAlice (25 February 2013)

Is Reddi-Grass or Just Grass a safer option ?


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## Heucherella (25 February 2013)

I feed readigrass as it is more natural, and also doesn't have the pesticides on it that chaff has. But, it is fairly high in natural grass sugars, so not suitable for fatties.


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## criso (25 February 2013)

While I take the point about grass and hay making up a larger proportion of the diet, there is something in the molassed chaff that my horse at least reacted to differently.

I have never had any problems with his behaviour even when the spring grass comes through and he can actually handle cereals, but 1/2 a scoop breakfast and dinner of an own brand chaff from the local feed store (I called it psycho chaff) and  my beach donkey turned into the amazing exploding tb and gave my sharer a ride he'll never forget.  He nearly gave up riding after 40 years in the saddle because of it.


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## skint1 (25 February 2013)

I'm really confused, I feed mine Hi-Fi Lite, this is approved by The Laminitis Trust (I think), why would they approve something that had a high sugar content and is therefore bad for horses?


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## AdorableAlice (25 February 2013)

Heucherella said:



			I feed readigrass as it is more natural, and also doesn't have the pesticides on it that chaff has. But, it is fairly high in natural grass sugars, so not suitable for fatties.
		
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I just use a double handful to ensure the yearlings chew rather than gulp their suregrow down.  A bag lasts for ever.


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## EMZ (25 February 2013)

I can beat molassed chaff I went to the local feed merchant and saw a bright pink bag with a palomino princes pony on it. And it was vanilla flavoured chaff! Hate to think what's in it xx


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## criso (25 February 2013)

EMZ said:



			I can beat molassed chaff I went to the local feed merchant and saw a bright pink bag with a palomino princes pony on it. And it was vanilla flavoured chaff! Hate to think what's in it xx
		
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I had to go and look that up to see if it was real but actually despite the cutesie packaging and marketing at 5% it's actually lower in sugar than Hi Fi which I believe is 8 or 9% and much lower than the mollichaff range (15 -20%).

From their fb page.

Forget-Me-Not Farm Complete Chaff combines chopped and pelleted straw with a sprinkling of alfalfa, oil, molasses and a vanilla flavour with added vits and mins. It's a complete feed, so when fed at the recommended levels of 500g per 100kg bodyweight, no additional vits and mins are needed. It provides 6.5MJ/kg Digestible energy, 5% sugar and 2.5% starch

Interesting we assume something in a pink bag is more sugary than something  in a sensibly coloured bag.


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## Oberon (25 February 2013)

skint1 said:



			I'm really confused, I feed mine Hi-Fi Lite, this is approved by The Laminitis Trust (I think), why would they approve something that had a high sugar content and is therefore bad for horses?
		
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Hi Fi Lite isn't heavily molassed, sticky, lumpy and 15% sugar (like the molassed chop that started my rant )

The Laminitis Trust has a certain criteria for which feeds can be endorsed by them.

http://www.laminitis.org/approval.html

They can't be high in NSCs to be endorsed.

But to me, it isn't about just the bucket feed in isolation.....our horses can be at risk from lami from a combination of lifestyle factors.

Discounting lami from acute inflammatory disease (grain bin incidents/surgery/poisoning) and concentrating on lami coming on where the horse has been exposed to one risk too many and it's tipped them over - which is what is going to happen to some this spring/summer.

A little too much feed, a little too much grass, a little too little work and it can all add up to a sick horse before we know it.

Our climate is too mild, our grass is too green and our horses work too little for the feeds offered.

I am distrustful of the Laminitis Trust anyway - I feel their information is outdated and their endorsement of some feeds is just dodgy...'Happy Hoof' being a case in point .


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## Oberon (25 February 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			I just use a double handful to ensure the yearlings chew rather than gulp their suregrow down.  A bag lasts for ever.
		
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I used to feed Readigrass to Obi (don't want to risk it with his Cushings now though).

I loved the smell and it lasted forever.


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## Delicious_D (25 February 2013)

Ive started feeding dee the Alfa A mollasses free.


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## Delicious_D (25 February 2013)

McW said:



			has anyone seen that chaff with vanilla in it? it's in a bright pink bag that looks like my little pony. I can not believe feed merchants sell this, what part does vanilla play in the horses diet?
		
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I've seen this and commented about the dumbing down of the feed market and anyone who feeds this because the bag is pink needs shooting1


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## Oberon (25 February 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			anyone who feeds this because the bag is pink needs shooting1
		
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A grump after my own heart .


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## Delicious_D (25 February 2013)

Oberon said:





A grump after my own heart .
		
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I overheard a couple buying Bailey Competition mix becuase their little welshy was going to his 1st show :O :O :O


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## Oberon (25 February 2013)

Delicious_D said:





I overheard a couple buying Bailey Competition mix becuase their little welshy was going to his 1st show :O :O :O
		
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That's why I have to just let it all out on here and keep my mouth shut elsewhere


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## Delicious_D (25 February 2013)

Oberon said:



			That's why I have to just let it all out on here and keep my mouth shut elsewhere 

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so tempting sometimes isnt it


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## maccachic (26 February 2013)

Delicious_D said:





I overheard a couple buying Bailey Competition mix becuase their little welshy was going to his 1st show :O :O :O
		
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I can remember when I was about 13 feeding my arab mare extra sweetfeed before an event to give her extra energy, took me ages to work out it just made her spooky.


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## EMZ (26 February 2013)

In know when u walked in and saw the horrific pink bag I think my words were what the &£@& is that x


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## TGM (26 February 2013)

Oberon said:



			When does a horse become lami-prone? When it has it's first attack of laminitis.
What was the horse before this? It was non-lami prone.
		
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I think you have to use a little common sense here.  In fact, further down the thread you have listed some of the common risk factors - overweight, lack of exercise etc.

If you take my OH's horse - he is a 17.1hh hunter who works hard and is a naturally lean animal.  Even when he is not being ridden he is a naturally active animal who likes to play and move around.  It is unlikely that a couple of handfuls of molassed chaff added to his feed is going to pose him any danger whatsoever.

Contrast him with the overweight pony with a cresty neck, who rarely gets ridden and is the type who is happy to stand and eat all day rather than move around.  Add a generous portion of heavily molassed chaff every day and then you are likely to hit trouble.

I am not actually disagreeing with you, but just encouraging you to make your argument a bit more rational, as more people tend to take it on board then.

The other thing that I would point out that everyone gets so hung up about molasses that they tend to overlook the fact that it is the total sugar AND starch content they should worry about.  There are some lightly molassed feeds that actually have a lower sugar/starch level than some that are unmolassed!


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## TwoStroke (26 February 2013)

TGM said:



			I think you have to use a little common sense here.  In fact, further down the thread you have listed some of the common risk factors - overweight, lack of exercise etc.

If you take my OH's horse - he is a 17.1hh hunter who works hard and is a naturally lean animal.  Even when he is not being ridden he is a naturally active animal who likes to play and move around.  It is unlikely that a couple of handfuls of molassed chaff added to his feed is going to pose him any danger whatsoever.

Contrast him with the overweight pony with a cresty neck, who rarely gets ridden and is the type who is happy to stand and eat all day rather than move around.  Add a generous portion of heavily molassed chaff every day and then you are likely to hit trouble.

I am not actually disagreeing with you, but just encouraging you to make your argument a bit more rational, as more people tend to take it on board then.

The other thing that I would point out that everyone gets so hung up about molasses that they tend to overlook the fact that it is the total sugar AND starch content they should worry about.  There are some lightly molassed feeds that actually have a lower sugar/starch level than some that are unmolassed!
		
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By and large I agree with you, and when people feed sensibly and appropriately for the individual horse it's not a problem. However, just because a horse is naturally active and lean, doesn't mean that certain feeds don't pose a risk. One of ours for eg, a TB, is extremely sensitive to sugars. He doesn't get silly or spooky, he never gets fat, and he doesn't get clinical laminitis. The first thing you notice is that his feet have literally fallen apart. By then of course, it's far too late.

It's not just the weight of the animal that is the issue, it's what's going on in the hind gut, where you can't see. Why feed these crappy feeds when there's absolutely no reason it is necessary?


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## criso (26 February 2013)

The horse I referred to that reacted badly to just 1/2 a scoop of own brand chaff was a 16.2 tb, in work, being turned out every day and also lively in the field and at that point was quite underweight as he had an issue with the hay the yard was providing and grass hadn't come through significantly at that time.

As I said he is fine with cereals, spring grass and rocket fuel ryegrass haylage and yes the latter two would provide much more sugar to his overall intake but there was something in the sugar hit from the  heavily molassed chaff that he reacted to in terms of his behaviour.


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## Oberon (26 February 2013)

TGM said:



			I think you have to use a little common sense here.  In fact, further down the thread you have listed some of the common risk factors - overweight, lack of exercise etc.

If you take my OH's horse - he is a 17.1hh hunter who works hard and is a naturally lean animal.  Even when he is not being ridden he is a naturally active animal who likes to play and move around.  It is unlikely that a couple of handfuls of molassed chaff added to his feed is going to pose him any danger whatsoever.
		
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But I was not referring to you personally when I started the thread 

I was referring to such things as: 

a) A foal kept in the stable 23.5 hours a day, rugged up and given A 'show mix' because it's going to be a show pony when it grows up.

b) A 3 year old pony from an auction. It is being kept in a stable 23.5 hours a day, rugged and fed Leigh's Mollased Chaff and Calm and Condition because it's condition score is around 3 and the owner (BHS qualified) thinks it looks poor.

c) A 13 year old, 15hh TB x. Had laminitic attacks every year for the last 5 years. Is fed 'Conditioning Chaff' and a 'Conditioning feed'. Horse absolutely screams ulcers and back pain to me - which is probably why it doesn't keep weight as easily.



TGM said:



			Contrast him with the overweight pony with a cresty neck, who rarely gets ridden and is the type who is happy to stand and eat all day rather than move around.  Add a generous portion of heavily molassed chaff every day and then you are likely to hit trouble.
		
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I would like us to reconsider our feeding practices BEFORE the pony gets overweight and cresty.



TGM said:



			I am not actually disagreeing with you, but just encouraging you to make your argument a bit more rational, as more people tend to take it on board then.
		
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Thank you for your tutelage but the clue was in the title . I think I am usually pretty rational on here so I feel I can be allowed a little rant once in a while 



TGM said:



			The other thing that I would point out that everyone gets so hung up about molasses that they tend to overlook the fact that it is the total sugar AND starch content they should worry about.  There are some lightly molassed feeds that actually have a lower sugar/starch level than some that are unmolassed!
		
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Agree. We need to stop reading the big letters on the feed bags and look at the small writing.....but that's a rant for another day


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## TGM (26 February 2013)

Oberon said:



			But I was not referring to you personally when I started the thread 

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No, but you did say "So I keep seeing bags of a local brand of Mollassed chop being delivered to people" and then implying that they are doing the equivalent of feeding a bag of sugar a day.  I was just trying to point out that might not be the case at all with all the people who receive this chaff.  I know a lot of people who feed molassed chaff and the majority do just add a handful to the feed.

However, if you said that you seen someone feeding a horse bucketfuls of the stuff then I could have understood your rant and argument better!


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## Oberon (26 February 2013)

TGM said:



			No, but you did say "So I keep seeing bags of a local brand of Mollassed chop being delivered to people" and then implying that they are doing the equivalent of feeding a bag of sugar a day.  I was just trying to point out that might not be the case at all with all the people who receive this chaff.  I know a lot of people who feed molassed chaff and the majority do just add a handful to the feed.

However, if you said that you seen someone feeding a horse bucketfuls of the stuff then I could have understood your rant and argument better!
		
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Apologies.

I should have explained what I meant more clearly for you 

My defence is that I am doing 12 hours shifts with Manflu .


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## Gentle_Warrior (26 February 2013)

Am going to jump on this thread, I have a good doer, 21 this year, happy hacker, chunky monkey build, currently lost through winter (brilliant) normal summer options of restricted grazing, 12 hr soaked hay if needed.  Fed a balancer (Baileys Local) with half a scoop of Hi Fi Lite added.  Never had laminitis but due to his, looking at grass and putting on weight genes, I urge on the side of caution and use Hi Fi Lite ?

Am I wrong ?


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## Twinkley Lights (26 February 2013)

I agree the lack of unmollassed chaff is an issue.  I'm moving my uber good doer onto the honeychop oat straw chaff moving from Happy hoof to cut sugars further still, but I've had the devil's own job to source it until someone agreed to buy it in for me.


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## TGM (26 February 2013)

Gentle_Warrior said:



			Am going to jump on this thread, I have a good doer, 21 this year, happy hacker, chunky monkey build, currently lost through winter (brilliant) normal summer options of restricted grazing, 12 hr soaked hay if needed.  Fed a balancer (Baileys Local) with half a scoop of Hi Fi Lite added.  Never had laminitis but due to his, looking at grass and putting on weight genes, I urge on the side of caution and use Hi Fi Lite ?

Am I wrong ?
		
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Why would you be wrong?  Seems sensible to me!  Or are you worried about the small amount of molasses in Hifi Lite in which case you could consider using Fast Fibre or even no chaff at all!


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## Gentle_Warrior (26 February 2013)

cheers TGM x


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## mandwhy (26 February 2013)

It is ridiculous how 90% of chaff in the shop is molassed, I just don't get it, why would there need to be molasses in it unless you're trying to coerce them into eating medicine? My horse eats anything! 

Also if you don't want molasses OR alfalfa you can forget it in most places, I compromised on hi fi lite for a while until I discovered a big feed shop that stocks simple systems so now I get timothy chop which is great. Slightly expensive for basically chopped hay but it is a huge bag. Both of mine are good doers, I just want to give them a little something when they come to see me from the field so I can faff with rugs etc and say hi, and any supplements. The big one has mag ox and Agnus castus to try and calm her general stressyness, so I don't think sugar is going to help.

Am I the only one who finds the concept of 'mollychaff calmer' especially ridiculous? 

I know not all horses are that bothered by sugar but imagine how many people are thinking 'why is my horse so hyper? He only has half a bucket of chaff!'


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## Oberon (26 February 2013)

mandwhy said:



			It is ridiculous how 90% of chaff in the shop is molassed, I just don't get it, why would there need to be molasses in it unless you're trying to coerce them into eating medicine? My horse eats anything! 

Also if you don't want molasses OR alfalfa you can forget it in most places, I compromised on hi fi lite for a while until I discovered a big feed shop that stocks simple systems so now I get timothy chop which is great. Slightly expensive for basically chopped hay but it is a huge bag. Both of mine are good doers, I just want to give them a little something when they come to see me from the field so I can faff with rugs etc and say hi, and any supplements. The big one has mag ox and Agnus castus to try and calm her general stressyness, so I don't think sugar is going to help.

Am I the only one who finds the concept of 'mollychaff calmer' especially ridiculous? 

I know not all horses are that bothered by sugar but imagine how many people are thinking 'why is my horse so hyper? He only has half a bucket of chaff!'
		
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I'm on the Simple System Timothy Chop for the old boy but we are quite lucky that a couple of places around here have started stocking basic hay chaff too.

I can't have molasses or alfalfa - so I was stuck 

Yes, Mollichaff Calmer makes me chuckle too - in fact anything labelled as a calmer that doesn't come from the vet makes me chuckle .

We expect our horses to be athletes - in what world would we expect athletes to perform at their best on a diet of ready meals ?


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## Elsiecat (26 February 2013)

I always keep a bin with Chaff in. Whichever is cheapest/available. Sometimes pegusus, sometimes apple flavoured chaff, sometimes leigh chaff. 
Gets fed to the Fox twice a day. About a handful to have her hormone balancer with.
I wouldn't feed is as part of a meal as I don't understand it's purpose. Eg. If feeding for weight, no purpose etc. 
I literally use that for her balancer as its cheap. 
Wouldn't let the welshie near it! 

ETA - any suggestions on something else cheap and easy just to have her balancer with? Open to suggestions on this!


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## Elsiecat (26 February 2013)

mandwhy said:



			Am I the only one who finds the concept of 'mollychaff calmer' especially ridiculous? 

I know not all horses are that bothered by sugar but imagine how many people are thinking 'why is my horse so hyper? He only has half a bucket of chaff!'
		
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I had this ponder at the feedshop once!!! How can this even work!?


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## Toast (26 February 2013)

Elsiecat said:



			I always keep a bin with Chaff in. Whichever is cheapest/available. Sometimes pegusus, sometimes apple flavoured chaff, sometimes leigh chaff. 
Gets fed to the Fox twice a day. About a handful to have her hormone balancer with.
I wouldn't feed is as part of a meal as I don't understand it's purpose. Eg. If feeding for weight, no purpose etc. 
I literally use that for her balancer as its cheap. 
Wouldn't let the welshie near it! 

ETA - any suggestions on something else cheap and easy just to have her balancer with? Open to suggestions on this!
		
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How much do you pay for a bag of crappy chaff Elsiecat? If she'll eat it, plain chaff is just a couple of pounds for a big sack. Otherwise i use Graze On which is just flash dried grass. That costs me about £7 for 20kg and last absolutely ages. 

Oberon, don't get me started on molassed chaffs. Im the same with heavily molassed mixes. Sixteen plus and Pegasus mix make me cringe! I have to bite my tongue when i see liveries carrying bags of these followed by a bag of Leigh Chop or Mollichop!


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## ester (26 February 2013)

I think some of the chaff producers have done a good job of convincing us that we are doing the best by the horses by feeding fibre-based hard feed instead of mixes (or the sugar beet/bran/barley/nuts I was brought up on) and we all missed the bit bout the molasses . 

FWIW having had a bucket or two of molasses chucked on my head (don't ever leave the employ of a farming cooperative ) it tastes foul anyway!


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## Oberon (26 February 2013)

Toast said:



			Leigh Chop
		
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That's what prompted the rant .

It's rather popular round here - as is 16+ (which I admit to feeding in the past too ).


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## Elsiecat (26 February 2013)

Toast said:



			How much do you pay for a bag of crappy chaff Elsiecat? If she'll eat it, plain chaff is just a couple of pounds for a big sack. Otherwise i use Graze On which is just flash dried grass. That costs me about £7 for 20kg and last absolutely ages. 

Oberon, don't get me started on molassed chaffs. Im the same with heavily molassed mixes. Sixteen plus and Pegasus mix make me cringe! I have to bite my tongue when i see liveries carrying bags of these followed by a bag of Leigh Chop or Mollichop!
		
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Usually about 6 pounds! I'll have a search out for some 'good' chaff next time I'm on my food travels. It's something I've never questioned as I don't see it as part of a 'diet', just something I know she'll eat without protesting to get her balancer in! 

In my defense I don't know what 16+ is


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## Elsiecat (26 February 2013)

Oberon said:



			That's what prompted the rant .

It's rather popular round here - as is 16+ (which I admit to feeding in the past too ).
		
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Yikes *ducks behind nearest bag of Leigh chop*


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## Toast (26 February 2013)

Oberon said:



			That's what prompted the rant .

It's rather popular round here - as is 16+ (which I admit to feeding in the past too ).
		
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Shame on you! *shakes fist* Pasture mix is another.. my sister works at a feed merchants and you can always tell the heavily molassed mixes as when you pick the bag up, it stays upright and doesn't fold over your arm!


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## Oberon (26 February 2013)

Toast said:



			Shame on you! *shakes fist*
		
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I didn't know any better 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.

 My chequered past includes:

Leigh's Mollichaff and bran
'Meadowsweet' and full sugar beet
16+ 
Happy Hoof
Old Faithful 

all because "he's an Arab and he can eat what he likes..." 

Well now he has rampant Cushings and I spend my life fretting over the sugar and starch content of his diet......oh the irony 



Toast said:



			my sister works at a feed merchants and you can always tell the heavily molassed mixes as when you pick the bag up, it stays upright and doesn't fold over your arm!
		
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Have you walked into the feed part of the Robinson's store and instantly smelt the cloud of molasses?


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## Scarlett (26 February 2013)

Oberon said:



			Have you walked into the feed part of the Robinson's store and instantly smelt the cloud of molasses? 

Click to expand...

OMG I cannot smell that smell without feeling sick. That thick, goopy feeling too, just the consitancy is enough to put me off... Cant stand the stuff, if anyone at mine wants to use it they might need to keep it in a different feed room. Bleugh!!!

Pasture mix is the work of the Devil...!


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## zigzag (26 February 2013)

No one makes their own chaff anymore then?


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## YorksG (26 February 2013)

We do  But the problem we have is that we can't source oat straw and the Big Mare can't cope with barley straw (we tried  ) We have a garden shredder, which is much easier than an old chaff cutter and works every bit as well


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## Sussexbythesea (26 February 2013)

Thanks Oberon for the info earlier. As you have done the research  In summary in your opinion what are the top  (nationally available) low/no sugar /non-alfalfa /healthy chaffs?  Saves me the job  

I have an 18yr old WB. I try to feed a low-sugar/ hi-fibre diet currently Hi-fi lite (1 scoop per feed and D&H Hi-fibre cubes 1/3 scoop per feed twice a day plus joint and combined tummy & calmer supps)

I had him on Fastfibre but then he decided he wouldn't touch it - He actually pitifully neighed at me when I tried to make him eat it!  

Worst feed though was D&H competition mix (aka LSD Mix!)  a few years ago when he was doing a lot more and it was like riding a horse on hallucinogenic drugs!  

He was on the leaner side at previous yards - this one he is on the heavier side. He hasn't got cushings (although I have asked about testing at his next vaccination to be sure) or had lami and I want to keep at least the latter away.


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## Holly Hocks (26 February 2013)

On a side note has anyone actually eaten any mollichaff themselves?  Only asking as I was feeding a friend's horses for her yesterday and she feeds full sugared mollichaff and competition mix.  As I opened the bin with the chaff in, the smell was wonderful - like treacle and I really had to stop myself trying some.........I think I might test a bit tomorrow to see if it tastes as good as it smells...

Mine are boring - Fast fibre and unmolassed plain straw chaff - doesn't smell remotely nice!


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## mandwhy (26 February 2013)

Haha I have tried it HH, as I have sampled most horse food, it is pretty much like treacle although molasses has a sort of 'earthy' taste, then you have bits of straw in your mouth and have to check no one was watching before you remove them... 

I couldn't go so far as plain straw chaff for my girl, it looks like that 'russell rabbit' hutch bedding you can get, in fact its probably the same. The Agnus castus is the one thing where she has gone 'What the hell is this?' And tries to steal the welshies measly handful instead, at least she loves hay so will eat it in this... Eventually.


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## Oberon (26 February 2013)

I can vouch that alfalfa pellets taste like cardboard and they suck all the saliva out of you and leave you with a ball in your mouth you can't get rid of.....

Sugar beet tastes like puddle water.


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## amandap (26 February 2013)

Oberon said:



			Sugar beet tastes like puddle water.
		
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Oh puddle water... yum! You really do go all out for your horses Oberon. 

The only things I've tried are brewers yeast (so sour and bitter) and linseed.Lovely on porridge.


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## Beausmate (26 February 2013)

Mollichaff tastes a bit salty to me.  Maybe it's the limestone flour?  Or maybe it's the amazing low-sugar molasses   Just how do they do that, I wonder.

And another thing!  How come unmolassed sugar beet is so much more expensive?  And can anyone answer me this?  Do sugar beet shreds have less molasses in than the pelleted form?  

That's all folks!


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## Oberon (26 February 2013)

amandap said:



			Oh puddle water... yum! You really do go all out for your horses Oberon. 

The only things I've tried are brewers yeast (so sour and bitter) and linseed.Lovely on porridge.
		
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Micronised linseed is great for thickening up your slow cooker stews if they are too runny


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## tallyho! (27 February 2013)

Just stop buying chaff.

Simples.

Switched to soaked pelletised feeds ages ago when I realised I was just adding sugar-coated chopped bedding.


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## Zerotolerance (27 February 2013)

I'm obsessed with reading the contents labels on feed bags to avoid molasses overload! Most of mine have Dengie Molasses Free Hi Fi plus Dodson and Horrell Equine Sensitive which is also molasses free. Another has Healthy Tummy ( molasses free too). Oh, and I feed them all soaked real grass nuts instead of sugar beet. (A while back used to get D&H unmolassed sugar beet shreds but don't think they do them any more  ) Don't get me started on all the heavily molassed mollichops - fell about laughing when I saw the "calmer version"!


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## TPO (27 February 2013)

Can someone list 'safe'/'approved by HHO BT feeds & chaffs' please?

I'm happy with my TB's diet but always interested to learn more. I'd never heard of Leigh chaff before. 

Thank you


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## webble (27 February 2013)

I would be interested in this to learn more too also how they are fed eg soaked or not and if they need to be mixed with another feed and what the benefits are if anyone has time please


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## AdorableAlice (27 February 2013)

I soak grass nuts in slightly more water than they need, this gives a sloppy feed, that as my OH says,' looks like cow *****'.

I use this gloopy mixture instead of sugarbeet to put moisture into the reddi-grass and suregrow that the yearlings have.

They love it but they do get it everywhere !


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## TGM (27 February 2013)

Toast said:



			Sixteen plus and Pegasus mix make me cringe!
		
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Actually Sixteen Plus worries me a lot more than molassed chaff.  For a start, if fed the way the manufacturer recommends it adds a significant amount of starch and sugar to the diet.  Secondly, it is aimed at veteran horses who are statistically much more likely to have developed Cushings disease and therefore much more likely to be laminitis prone.  Thirdly, a lot of owners seem to think just because a horse becomes a 'veteran' it automatically needs to be fed 'veteran mix'.  (Just like those who think a horse who competes HAS to have competition mix.)

I have known several cases where owners have switched to high starch veteran mixes and the horses have swiftly succumbed to laminitis.


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## marmalade76 (27 February 2013)

TGM said:



			Actually Sixteen Plus worries me a lot more than molassed chaff.  For a start, if fed the way the manufacturer recommends it adds a significant amount of starch and sugar to the diet.  Secondly, it is aimed at veteran horses who are statistically much more likely to have developed Cushings disease and therefore much more likely to be laminitis prone.  Thirdly, a lot of owners seem to think just because a horse becomes a 'veteran' it automatically needs to be fed 'veteran mix'.  (Just like those who think a horse who competes HAS to have competition mix.)

I have known several cases where owners have switched to high starch veteran mixes and the horses have swiftly succumbed to laminitis.
		
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Yep, I've known someone go out and buy sixteen plus just because their porkie little pony was an oldie


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## dominobrown (27 February 2013)

*Why is un-molassed chaff so expensive???* I am currently hi-fi molasses free, and to the poor do-er alfa-a oil. 
They thing is, I would really like to reduce my feed bill, but I am unsure on how to do this without just feeding them sticky awful mix.

p.s I was talking to someone who used to work for a feed company, and they said the mix for cows and horses was the same, just put into different bags!


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## AdorableAlice (27 February 2013)

I paid nearly £13 for a bag of reddi-grass, nearly fainted !  I suppose it lasts a very long time as I only throw a double handful in at a time.


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## TGM (27 February 2013)

If you are looking to reduce costs do you really need to feed chaff at all?  If your horse doesn't rush his feed, it may not be necessary.  I think we have been conditioned to assume that every bucket feed NEEDS a handful or two of short chop fibre.

If you are looking for something to mix supplements in etc., then then soaked products such as beet, grass nuts and alfalfa pellets are all possible options.

Personally I don't currently feed chaff to any of my three.


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## Oberon (27 February 2013)

I can get a bag of unmolassed hay chaff for £6. It comes in a white hessian sack.

The Simple System Timothy Chop is £12 and comes in a nice, waterproof bag (for my leaky tackroom ).

Both bags last forever (I only feed it to my dentally challenged old boy)

As far as safe, BF diets go, separates are usually more successful than complete mixes (although all horses are different)......

Basic No 1 foundation feed is forage - grass/hay/haylage. That, sunlight and internal synthesis is where the majority of nutrition comes from.

So a bucket feed just needs to pay homage to the foundation.

More fibre in the form of unmolassed beet or Fast Fibre is usually a safe base.
Spiller's High Fibre Cubes or Dodson and Horrell ERS pellets have been found safe to use also.

Chaff isn't really needed if you are feeding a fibre feed anyway but unmolassed timothy hay/oat straw is safe (Simple System, Halley's chop, Pure feed, HoneyChop Straw Chaff etc).

Because the horses tend to stay on the same forage from the same land (no longer free roaming equines) then we need to balance what is funky about that land. Usually we've found UK grazing has high calcium, high manganese, high iron, low zinc, low copper and magnesium that can't jump over the calcium level. Phosphorous, selenium, iodine and sodium can vary from area to area.
Most commercial feeds calculate via balancing software - but that software doesn't appreciate the quirks in the forage. So you get a 'balanced' feed that is only balanced to itself.
There are a few supplements out now that understand these quirks and provide a balance to what is funky.

Linseed is a joint aid, coat conditioner, gut aid and hoof moisture balancer. It contains the omega oils present in grass at the best ratio for a horse.

For energy - oats are safe to use for hooves.

For conditioning - copra meal or soya hulls.

Pro biotic - yea-sacc or brewer's yeast.

It's a basic and simple diet. The feed companies make it all so complicated!!!


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## marmalade76 (27 February 2013)

dominobrown said:



 *Why is un-molassed chaff so expensive???* I am currently hi-fi molasses free, and to the poor do-er alfa-a oil. 
They thing is, I would really like to reduce my feed bill, but I am unsure on how to do this without just feeding them sticky awful mix.

p.s I was talking to someone who used to work for a feed company, and they said the mix for cows and horses was the same, just put into different bags!
		
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It is horrendously expensive compared to other feeds considering it's mainly chopped straw. The one consolation is that I only buy about three sacks of it a year.


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## AdorableAlice (27 February 2013)

TGM said:



			If you are looking to reduce costs do you really need to feed chaff at all?  If your horse doesn't rush his feed, it may not be necessary.  I think we have been conditioned to assume that every bucket feed NEEDS a handful or two of short chop fibre.

If you are looking for something to mix supplements in etc., then then soaked products such as beet, grass nuts and alfalfa pellets are all possible options.

Personally I don't currently feed chaff to any of my three.
		
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A very valid point and years ago, us oldies, also used bran as a base feed.

My feral carthorse, Little Ted, just grabs and swallows anything without chaff in it.  The much longer chopped reddigrass makes him chew properly and have better table manners !  I would not dare give him the sticky, clumpy short chopped chaff, I might as well lay the tube and warm water out before feeding him.


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## Archangel (27 February 2013)

I still use bran.  I am confuddled by the need for chaff and also *hard hearted owner alert* my good doers get nothing .  Wait for it... not even a balancer    Actually that is a small lie, they get a handful of bran and 3 or 4 high fibre cubes once a day and that is it on the extras front.


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## chestnut cob (27 February 2013)

RebelRebel said:



			I still use bran.  I am confuddled by the need for chaff and also *hard hearted owner alert* my good doers get nothing .  Wait for it... not even a balancer    Actually that is a small lie, they get a handful of bran and 3 or 4 high fibre cubes once a day and that is it on the extras front.
		
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My Connie x is a fairly good doer and is currently existing on adlib hay, whatever grass he can find in the field when he's out during the day (he ignores any hay put out, only ever wants that in the stable) and a small handful of chaff.  I figure that a tiny handful of chaff isn't going to do him much harm (and I do understand about BF type diets having had a horse in the past with terrible feet and arthritis who I did debate taking BF so did endless research).  If he's really lucky he might get a slice of apple once a week!!  He only gets "dinner" because I used to feed the other horse, when I had them both, and felt a bit mean not giving the pony any so I just stayed in the habit once I was down to just one.

I usually feed either D&H High Fibre Nuts or Safe & Sound (both of which IMO are great feeds).  Couldn't get S&S at local feed merchant last time so they suggested Happy Hoof as being similar but been really unimpressed with it.  The quality is much lower than S&S, it doesn't smell fresh and it seems quite sugary.  And because he only gets a sprinkle in a bucket every day it's going to take about 5 years to get through the whole bag! :/


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## Oberon (27 February 2013)

RebelRebel said:



			I still use bran.  I am confuddled by the need for chaff and also *hard hearted owner alert* my good doers get nothing .  Wait for it... not even a balancer    Actually that is a small lie, they get a handful of bran and 3 or 4 high fibre cubes once a day and that is it on the extras front.
		
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I used bran. I love it and the horses love it.

Sadly my phosphorus level came back too high to safely continue feeding it .


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## webble (27 February 2013)

Oberon said:



			I can get a bag of unmolassed hay chaff for £6. It comes in a white hessian sack.

The Simple System Timothy Chop is £12 and comes in a nice, waterproof bag (for my leaky tackroom ).

Both bags last forever (I only feed it to my dentally challenged old boy)

As far as safe, BF diets go, separates are usually more successful than complete mixes (although all horses are different)......

Basic No 1 foundation feed is forage - grass/hay/haylage. That, sunlight and internal synthesis is where the majority of nutrition comes from.

So a bucket feed just needs to pay homage to the foundation.

More fibre in the form of unmolassed beet or Fast Fibre is usually a safe base.
Spiller's High Fibre Cubes or Dodson and Horrell ERS pellets have been found safe to use also.

Chaff isn't really needed if you are feeding a fibre feed anyway but unmolassed timothy hay/oat straw is safe (Simple System, Halley's chop, Pure feed, HoneyChop Straw Chaff etc).

Because the horses tend to stay on the same forage from the same land (no longer free roaming equines) then we need to balance what is funky about that land. Usually we've found UK grazing has high calcium, high manganese, high iron, low zinc, low copper and magnesium that can't jump over the calcium level. Phosphorous, selenium, iodine and sodium can vary from area to area.
Most commercial feeds calculate via balancing software - but that software doesn't appreciate the quirks in the forage. So you get a 'balanced' feed that is only balanced to itself.
There are a few supplements out now that understand these quirks and provide a balance to what is funky.

Linseed is a joint aid, coat conditioner, gut aid and hoof moisture balancer. It contains the omega oils present in grass at the best ratio for a horse.

For energy - oats are safe to use for hooves.

For conditioning - copra meal or soya hulls.

Pro biotic - yea-sacc or brewer's yeast.

It's a basic and simple diet. The feed companies make it all so complicated!!!
		
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Brilliant post thank you


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## maccachic (27 February 2013)

The benefit of adding chaff to feeds is it encourages the horse to chew (the longer chop the chaff the better) chewing has two effects it produces salivia which buffers stomach acid and it also increases feed utilisation.  

I like adding alfala to mine as it add protein, vits and mins as well to help balance out my diet and the added affect of alfalfa having ulcer preventing qualities.


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## Oberon (27 February 2013)

maccachic said:



			The benefit of adding chaff to feeds is it encourages the horse to chew (the longer chop the chaff the better) chewing has two effects it produces salivia which buffers stomach acid and it also increases feed utilisation.
		
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But surely that's the function of their forage ration?

Why pay for it in the bucket too?


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## criso (27 February 2013)

Just remembered the name of the psycho chaff a yard i was at fed : Kenwood and its sugar level was a record 24%, makes mollichaff look like the diet option.


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## maccachic (27 February 2013)

Oberon said:



			But surely that's the function of their forage ration?

Why pay for it in the bucket too?
		
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More in relation to feeding with grains etc as opposed to just a bucket of chaff.


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## Oberon (27 February 2013)

Well there has been some development....

My friend mentioned that her new pony "is a bit wick" at the moment.

I turned to her with my eyebrows heavenward and told her it's because of the Calm and Condition's 18% NSC mixed with the Leigh's chaff at 15% 

We had a chat about alternatives 

She won't be swayed on the chaff though because the pony likes it and it makes the bucket look fuller .

Baby steps .


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## Oberon (27 February 2013)

maccachic said:



			More in relation to feeding with grains etc as opposed to just a bucket of chaff.
		
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What I don't get it that even if fed grain - the transit time of forage in the stomach is around 2 - 4 hours......so there will already be chewed forage, home-made chaff in the stomach to digest with the grain.

So why do we need more in the bucket?


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## maccachic (28 February 2013)

I guess they chew it more and that generates extra salivia which travels with it, Im not sure as not a nutritionist - but there was research done and digestibility rose when fed alongside chaff, was done by a feed company trying to promote their chaff but easily transferable across any range.


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## Rollin (28 February 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			I have seen a cherrry flavoured chaff.  Since when has a horse eaten cherries ?  My old Welsh D was often seen eating blackberries out of the hedgerow though !
		
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We have a lot of cherry trees on this farm.  My horses go mad for them and spit out the stones!!


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## Rollin (28 February 2013)

TGM said:



			Actually Sixteen Plus worries me a lot more than molassed chaff.  For a start, if fed the way the manufacturer recommends it adds a significant amount of starch and sugar to the diet.  Secondly, it is aimed at veteran horses who are statistically much more likely to have developed Cushings disease and therefore much more likely to be laminitis prone.  Thirdly, a lot of owners seem to think just because a horse becomes a 'veteran' it automatically needs to be fed 'veteran mix'.  (Just like those who think a horse who competes HAS to have competition mix.)

I have known several cases where owners have switched to high starch veteran mixes and the horses have swiftly succumbed to laminitis.
		
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My old man, now 34 and still shod and doing gentle hacks has been on 16+ since he was 16!!  When I bought him (aged 15) he was kept stabled all winter as he lost so much weight.   Result he dumped all the clients at the yard who owned him and no one was allowed to ride him, which is why I purchased him.

He has never looked back.  His teeth and feet are fantastic much to the amazement of my dentist.


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## Toast (28 February 2013)

Oberon said:



			Have you walked into the feed part of the Robinson's store and instantly smelt the cloud of molasses? 

Click to expand...

Yes, and i love it


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## Landcruiser (28 February 2013)

I love this thread! I'm constantly moaning at my local feed store to stock something without molasses OR alfalfa. I hadn't considering stopping chaff altogether before though. I feed Bailey's Lo cal to both of mine - a very good doer and a not so good doer. The fatty then gets a handful of chaff and a slop of the water off the top of the Speedibeet (which I make like soup). My thinny gets micronised linseed, more speedibeet, as well as the chaff and a measure of Yea sac, which I'm just using up and not planning to replace (as it's in the lo cal).

After reading here, thinking I'll stop the chaff, and probably the Speedibeet also, and just use a bit of Fast Fibre. Both boys are out on decent grazing for about 7 -8 hours a day, and have ad lib late-cut hay in the stable (fatty gets his soaked).

Does that sound OK?


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## Landcruiser (28 February 2013)

Continuing the Lo Cal balancer though (wasn't clear in previous post)


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## Pale Rider (28 February 2013)

I'm definately of the opinion that diet is a major cause of most ills of the domesticated horse, driven by feed companies who hopefully don't know any better, but who probably do and are profiteering at the expense of the horses health.

I believe that stress is the reason behind  diseases such as cushions, insulin resistance etc. This is induced by the feeding of sugars and cereals, totally alien to the horses diet.

Couple this with a poor environment, ie. a livery situation or competition type yard and the horse has little or no chance.


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## criso (28 February 2013)

Landcruiser said:



			After reading here, thinking I'll stop the chaff, and probably the Speedibeet also, and just use a bit of Fast Fibre. 
Does that sound OK?
		
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Bearing in mind that two of the main  ingredients of fast fibre are unmolassed sugarbeet and straw it would be an easy way for you to feed these.

I don't feed a chaff at all, neither of mine are good enough doers that I am looking for filler and the calcium levels are far to high in my forage to feed Alfalfa.

They have ad lib forage at the all times so I use feeds to complement this.


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## nagsandrags (4 March 2013)

This is my first post....I feed fast fibre and a vit/min supplement to my boys, all good doers and native ponies who are out with access to ad lib hay.

I have just taken on a 10 month old cob foal who came to our yard in a very poor way, his mother had died. I have put him on D&H Suregrow with some chaff, he also has adlib haylage. I have never had a youngster before and am very mindful of avoiding developmental problems for him.

Would this feed regime be ok?


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## AdorableAlice (4 March 2013)

nagsandrags said:



			This is my first post....I feed fast fibre and a vit/min supplement to my boys, all good doers and native ponies who are out with access to ad lib hay.

I have just taken on a 10 month old cob foal who came to our yard in a very poor way, his mother had died. I have put him on D&H Suregrow with some chaff, he also has adlib haylage. I have never had a youngster before and am very mindful of avoiding developmental problems for him.

Would this feed regime be ok?
		
Click to expand...

That is how I feed my youngsters and they both thrive.  If the cob foal is in a poor way it would be wise to speak to you vet about worming the foal, rather than just buying a product off the shelf.  If he has a big burden he made need a specific product/programme before he joins your worming programme for the rest of your horses.


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## nagsandrags (4 March 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			That is how I feed my youngsters and they both thrive.  If the cob foal is in a poor way it would be wise to speak to you vet about worming the foal, rather than just buying a product off the shelf.  If he has a big burden he made need a specific product/programme before he joins your worming programme for the rest of your horses.
		
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Thanks for the reply, he's been on the yard since last Autumn and has been being wormed. He's in a much much better way now than when he came and has put weight on. I read good things about the Suregrow so thought it would be worth a try.


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## AdorableAlice (4 March 2013)

Sorry, I read it as 'just arrived'.

I had a Shire x arrive last June aged 10 months, totally feral and rather poor.  He had Strongid P several times before joining the routine worming programme.  He picked up really well and has grown about 6 inches now.  It is very satisfying patching them back together and watching them thrive, learn to trust you  and gain confidence.

I use suregrow, handful of unmollassed chaff and unmollassed suger beet.  Let them grow as nature intended and with luck there will be no joint problems.  Good luck, your foal is fortunate to have found a caring home.


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