# Jeremy Clarkson



## FairyLights (1 December 2011)

I agree Jeremy and you get my vote. JC for PM The country would soon be back on its feet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuuDnqSPnhA


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## Rollin (1 December 2011)

I thought he was better on why trains always stop at Reading because of jumpers.  Frantic messages to interviewers to end discussion.  Oh so naughty.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (1 December 2011)

After watching his embarassing performance on The One Show last night - just antagonistic nonsense he spouted - I would only vote for him to have his mouth taped shut.


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## stencilface (1 December 2011)

I don't know why people bother complaining about him, I'm sure he only does it to annoy people, why let him get to you?

Love seeing matt baker being made to feel uncomfortable, he's a great guy, but never seems to know how to manage the more unruly guests


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## suestowford (1 December 2011)

I was annoyed about his stupid comments about striking, but horrified by what he said about train jumpers. 
But then I've never understood why so many people like him, I've obviously not got the right sense of humour to get his jokes - at least, I'm hoping he was joking?


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## Alec Swan (1 December 2011)

Very funny,  and he isn't alone in his thoughts!!  Well said Clarkson,  you're working for the greater good,  it's only a shame that those who would strike,  don't.

I'd go further;  sack those who strike,  and fill their places with the all so often equally qualified,  unemployed.  Let's see how the wannabe strikers manage on the dole! 

Alec.

ps.  As a foot note,  I'm wearing my _Pedantic_ hat!!


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## MerrySherryRider (1 December 2011)

Horsesforever1 said:



			I agree Jeremy and you get my vote. JC for PM The country would soon be back on its feet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuuDnqSPnhA

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Thanks for the link. I missed it but agree, he's a brilliant guy. He's one of the last brave un-PC souls who actually says what everyone else is thinking.


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## SusannaF (1 December 2011)

Mates with Rebekah Brooks, isn't he? Interesting company.


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## stencilface (1 December 2011)

My god, let these things go!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15977813


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## Tost (1 December 2011)

blazingsaddles said:



			After watching his embarassing performance on The One Show last night - just antagonistic nonsense he spouted - I would only vote for him to have his mouth taped shut.

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100% agree with this.

I cannot stand the man.


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## MerrySherryRider (1 December 2011)

Tinselface said:



			My god, let these things go!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15977813

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Is Unison the new government ?
 Power seems to have gone to their heads, not content with trying to leave the sick and elderly without care, children without education, the grieving unable to bury their dead, they now want to deprive us of Top Gear.

I never thought I'd say this, but bring back Mrs Thatcher. Someone needs to have the balls to stop this madness.


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## FairyLights (1 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Very funny,  and he isn't alone in his thoughts!!  Well said Clarkson,  you're working for the greater good,  it's only a shame that those who would strike,  don't.

I'd go further;  sack those who strike,  and fill their places with the all so often equally qualified,  unemployed.  Let's see how the wannabe strikers manage on the dole! 

Alec.

ps.  As a foot note,  I'm wearing my _Pedantic_ hat!! 

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I agree Alec Do you want to stand for parliament? I'll vote for you.


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## ChristmasPixie (1 December 2011)

hmm 

Have to admit some of his comments make me smile but I simply cannot become a fan of this man since he said all horse riders should be banned from the roads/lanes or taxed to use them..... as we get in the way of his oh so wonderful heaps of overpriced junk. Grrrr. lol


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## Jerroboam (1 December 2011)

Once again Clarkson might have been joking regarding taxing horses etc, given that his little girls are often seen hacking, on the roads, outside Chipping Norton! He's amazing! For PM!


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## MerrySherryRider (1 December 2011)

ChristmasPixie said:



			hmm 

Have to admit some of his comments make me smile but I simply cannot become a fan of this man since he said all horse riders should be banned from the roads/lanes or taxed to use them..... as we get in the way of his oh so wonderful heaps of overpriced junk. Grrrr. lol 

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He and his wife keep Icelandic ponies at home.


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## Magnetic Sparrow (1 December 2011)

Dave Prentis appears to have had his sense of humour surgically removed. Of course Jeremy Clarkson is being deliberately provocative, it's what he does. It adds to the debate imho.


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## Rowreach (1 December 2011)

Go Jeremy!  Thank goodness someone still has the balls to be provocative.  And judging from the woman on Radio 2 this afternoon moaning about him ... funniest bit of radio I've heard in a long time - oh the irony!


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## rhino (1 December 2011)

horserider said:



			He and his wife keep Icelandic ponies at home.
		
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You forgot about Kristen Scott Donkey


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## Mrs B (1 December 2011)

Rowreach said:



			Go Jeremy!  Thank goodness someone still has the balls to be provocative.  And judging from the woman on Radio 2 this afternoon moaning about him ... funniest bit of radio I've heard in a long time - oh the irony! 

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Aw! I missed that! I thought Matt B and Alex's faces were a picture  I mean, what did the producers think he was going to do: share his secret mince pie recipe?!


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## dressagelove (1 December 2011)

I love Jeremy Clarkson! He should so be PM, stop everyone farting about in the world.
Alec, I quite agree. Why should people get to strike when they are privileged enough to even HAVE a job. The are plenty who would relieve them of them if so wished.

We have a deficit, we are all in the same position. Things will pick up, and in time, so will pensions. Just wait it out people!!!


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## Rowreach (1 December 2011)

Mrs B said:



			Aw! I missed that! I thought Matt B and Alex's faces were a picture  I mean, what did the producers think he was going to do: share his secret mince pie recipe?!
		
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pmsl their faces were hilarious   first time I've seen them not looking obscenely pleased with themselves lol


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## Hollyberry (1 December 2011)

Much as Jeremy Clarkson irritates me, he does also make me laugh and he is right on the button with this one.  Idiots who striked yesterday might not be so smug if they were instantly replaced.  In these difficult times anybody who has a secure job should be thankful, there are not many people who have a secure pension in store for them and for too long the public sector have been pandered and spoilt and yes I know a lot of them do a good job, I am one of them, but you have got to be realistic in the financial mess we are in and just belt up and get on with it like a lot of people in the private sector are doing.


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## MerrySherryRider (1 December 2011)

rhino said:



			You forgot about Kristen Scott Donkey 

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Aw, yes, I did.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_IGbTnf23U


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## Alec Swan (1 December 2011)

Perhaps on a more serious note,  I just do wonder if those who receive massive bonuses,  and wages to match, the banking sector,  were forced into accepting that in our worldwide recession,  they are not prima donors,  and need to accept less,  then the striking section of our community,  might find _LESS_,  to be a little more palatable.

I know of many men who were earning £10 an hour and are now on £8.  If they can accept that we live in straightened times,  then why can't those who are now going on strike?  

We're living through very difficult days,  people.  We need to cut our cloth,  according to our means,  and those who have decided that they are special cases,  need to remove themselves from their own rear ends.

I'm sorry if life is difficult for you,  but the rest of us are finding life a tad difficult too.

A.


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## Pedantic (1 December 2011)

I find him entertaining, obviously the offendergasmers will be hyperventilating while wetting their pants, demanding he be sacked, refund my licence fee, points of view blah blah blah etc etc etc adnauseum, for anyone bothered, errrrr hellooooooo, waves, I think he was joking,.................... or was he DEN DEN DERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRNNNNNN.......


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## Rowreach (1 December 2011)

Not only are we all strapped for cash/out of work/living on own basic brands (well, except for all those people with jobs they can strike from ) but we are not allowed to joke about anything anymore ....

Gawd help us all ............


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## stencilface (1 December 2011)

Rowreach said:



			Not only are we all strapped for cash/out of work/living on own basic brands (well, except for all those people with jobs they can strike from ) but we are not allowed to joke about anything anymore ....

Gawd help us all ............

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I think chris evans on radio2 said a similar thing, its not all doom and gloom, yes there's no money around and it is pretty rubbish at the moment, but that doesn't mean having fun is banned, laughter is free after all.

Unless that put a tax on fun?!


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## dressagelove (1 December 2011)

Rowreach said:



			Not only are we all strapped for cash/out of work/living on own basic brands (well, except for all those people with jobs they can strike from ) but we are not allowed to joke about anything anymore ....

Gawd help us all ............

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Yes, totally agree with all of this Rowreach, got it spot on there


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## noblesteed (1 December 2011)

I think it would be funny if Mr Clarkson had an accident today and ended up in an NHS hospital... LOVE to be the nurse who dealt with him...
Trousers down Mr Clarkson, this won't hurt....

This from the man who claims that global warming isn't actually happening... Dear me!


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## Mince Pie (1 December 2011)

horserider said:



			Is Unison the new government ?
 Power seems to have gone to their heads, not content with trying to leave the sick and elderly without care, children without education, the grieving unable to bury their dead, they now want to deprive us of Top Gear.

I never thought I'd say this, but bring back Mrs Thatcher. Someone needs to have the balls to stop this madness.
		
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I totally agree 

Jeremy Clarkson has been in the public eye long enough for people to realise that he IS an antagonist - it's what he does... If you don't like him then turn the TV off over switch to a different channel. Personally he is one of my favourite writers/journalist/presenters and I say "hear hear" to nearly everything he says.


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## Mince Pie (1 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Perhaps on a more serious note,  I just do wonder if those who receive massive bonuses,  and wages to match, the banking sector,  were forced into accepting that in our worldwide recession,  they are not prima donors,  and need to accept less,  then the striking section of our community,  might find _LESS_,  to be a little more palatable.

I know of many men who were earning £10 an hour and are now on £8.  If they can accept that we live in straightened times,  then why can't those who are now going on strike?  

We're living through very difficult days,  people.  We need to cut our cloth,  according to our means,  and those who have decided that they are special cases,  need to remove themselves from their own rear ends.

I'm sorry if life is difficult for you,  but the rest of us are finding life a tad difficult too.

A. 

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Where is that damned 'like' button?


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## luckyoldme (1 December 2011)

The comments were so ludicrous they were obviously tongue in cheek... but the union leaders are seeking legal advice.
I want to be a lawyer.. so many people are just desperate to throw good money at lawyers!!
cue lwayer posting to tell me i dont want to be a lawyer because its frightfully hard.


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## Anglebracket (1 December 2011)

I don't find the comment made by Clarkson particularly funny or clever. But I am all for free speech and the guy is entitled to his opinion / sense of humour.

To those who are in favour of replacing people who go on strike with people who are currently unemployed, have you thought about the implications? Workers who are members of a union (in both the private and public sector) are legally entitled to participate in industrial action. Do you really want to take this right away? What about the other rights that employees currently have? Maternity leave, for example. It's expensive to find cover for young mothers, so lets replace them as soon as they get pregnant. What about the minimum wage, the right to 4.8 weeks annual leave, working time regulations, etc? Where would you draw the line?


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## Alec Swan (1 December 2011)

Anglebracket,  (a good user name,  by the way!)

there's a world of difference between "Rights"  and "Right".

A.


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## flyingfeet (1 December 2011)

I have an issue with the strikes - the defined benefit pension is not sustainable at final pay level. Very few companies offer this now, so why should the government?

My pension costs me 5%, and is worth less than funds invested. I'd love a defined benefit pension at 3% !!


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## Damnation (1 December 2011)

dressagelove said:



			I love Jeremy Clarkson! He should so be PM, stop everyone farting about in the world.
Alec, I quite agree. Why should people get to strike when they are privileged enough to even HAVE a job. The are plenty who would relieve them of them if so wished.

We have a deficit, we are all in the same position. Things will pick up, and in time, so will pensions. Just wait it out people!!!
		
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This.

They may be "holding our society together" but they also have the luxury of rather well paid jobs, and _job security_ which is something alot of people _don't have_ at the moment.

ETA: He is entitled to his opinion. Saying he should be sacked is like telling the people _who have gone on strike to voice their opinion_ that they should be sacked.


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## Dirtymare (1 December 2011)

Mince Pie said:



			I totally agree 

Jeremy Clarkson has been in the public eye long enough for people to realise that he IS an antagonist - it's what he does... If you don't like him then turn the TV off over switch to a different channel. Personally he is one of my favourite writers/journalist/presenters and I say "hear hear" to nearly everything he says.
		
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Well said Mince Pie.
I raise a glass to all Clarkson fans - think we maybe few and far between....


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## Damnation (1 December 2011)

Dirtymare said:



			Well said Mince Pie.
I raise a glass to all Clarkson fans - think we maybe few and far between....
		
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I'm with you  I think he is quite funny personally, and is not afraid to voice his opinion in very PC times.


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## perfect11s (1 December 2011)

I'm not his bigest fan however  he does upset all the right people, the ones that make our lives harder less fun or dull  so go on jezza you give it to em straight... the po faced PC brigade, the beardy yogurt knitters the envronMentalists... the jobs worths, the non produtives .......


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## Bustermartin (1 December 2011)

Originally Posted by blazingsaddles  
After watching his embarassing performance on The One Show last night - just antagonistic nonsense he spouted - I would only vote for him to have his mouth taped shut.

This^^

Quietly I may agree with some of the sentiment behind the words - but cannot stand the man.  I used to like Top Gear, but they are all so full of it now, I can't watch it anymore


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## perfect11s (1 December 2011)

noblesteed said:



			This from the man who claims that global warming isn't actually happening... Dear me!
		
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 Depends whether he said man made global warming  or global warming!!!???  the rubbish and the junkscience,  the false claims relating to co2 and about  mans infuance realy needs more scrutiny  , however The climate is constanty changing has gone through cycles of warm and cool over time so to say it doesnt is stupid, if that's what he said...


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## La Fiaba (1 December 2011)

Hollyberry said:



			Much as Jeremy Clarkson irritates me, he does also make me laugh and he is right on the button with this one.  Idiots who striked yesterday might not be so smug if they were instantly replaced.  In these difficult times anybody who has a secure job should be thankful, there are not many people who have a secure pension in store for them and for too long the public sector have been pandered and spoilt and yes I know a lot of them do a good job, I am one of them, but you have got to be realistic in the financial mess we are in and just belt up and get on with it like a lot of people in the private sector are doing.
		
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^^^what I wanted to say (except about the job!) I don't live in the UK anymore, but we are having the same problems re pensions here in Italy, I think most countries in Europe are going through something similar right now. JC is a tool, but I like him and like the PM says, he was just being silly. He has said what many people are thinking though.


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## Merry Crisis (1 December 2011)

Jeremy is like a breath of fresh air amongst so many meely mouthed, PC indoctrinated, lemon sucking public. Good on you Jezza, lets HOPE the BBC doesnt have a Fat Controler!!!


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## Kiribati_uk (1 December 2011)

JEREMY CLARKSON for PRIME MINISTER!!!!!!!!
He says it as it, so what if he offends people. This country is turning into a nannystate, people need to man up and grow a pair!!!


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## martlin (1 December 2011)

All this hysterical complaining, getting offended and demanding JC's head on a plate reminds me of something Anne Widdecombe (who incidentally should be Prime Minister ) said...
''If you start getting offended at satirists and comedians, you have lost it...''

I watched The One Show and thought the whole situation hilarious, I just can't understand what the producers expected to happen? I mean, they introduced him as the person with most ridiculous/controversial views in the UK, and then when he delivers they are shocked. Mind boggles.


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## Miss L Toe (1 December 2011)

Tinselface said:



			I don't know why people bother complaining about him, I'm sure he only does it to annoy people, why let him get to you?

Love seeing matt baker being made to feel uncomfortable, he's a great guy, but never seems to know how to manage the more unruly guests 

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I have no doubt the producer was screaming in his ear, it was a low point for Clarkson, who needs to get his head out of his own ass.


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## dressagelove (1 December 2011)

Also, I don't know if anyone listened to the Chris Moyles show when he was on, but they were talking about how much money Top gear makes. Apparently it makes a huge profit. As if the BBC will sack him, yeah right. If they do then soon they'll be in debt as well! haha


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## Alec Swan (1 December 2011)

martlin said:



			......Anne Widdecombe (who incidentally should be Prime Minister ) said...
''If you start getting offended at satirists and comedians, you have lost it...''
		
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Satirists all so often touch a nerve,  and an uncomfortable one,  at that!! 

A.


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## stencilface (1 December 2011)

martlin said:



			All this hysterical complaining, getting offended and demanding JC's head on a plate reminds me of something Anne Widdecombe (who incidentally should be Prime Minister ) said...
''If you start getting offended at satirists and comedians, you have lost it...''

I watched The One Show and thought the whole situation hilarious, I just can't understand what the producers expected to happen? I mean, they introduced him as the person with most ridiculous/controversial views in the UK, and then when he delivers they are shocked. Mind boggles.
		
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This completely - they even set up that mock trial for him - what did they expect?!


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## Miss L Toe (1 December 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			I have no doubt the producer was screaming in his ear, it was a low point for Clarkson, who needs to get his head out of his own ass.
		
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The remark which was offensive and not funny was that it did not matter if someone died by suicide in front of a train the authorities should not stop the train, ie not inconvenience anyone on the railway.
Well sorry, every such death has many many victims, who should be allowed to grieve and not have it made out to be a sick joke.
I think there were some who had to go after the Andrew Sachs telephone call, another of the same type of "joke".


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## martlin (1 December 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			The remark which was offensive and not funny was that it did not matter if someone died by suicide in front of a train the authorities should not stop the train, ie not inconvenience anyone on the railway.
		
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Actually, that's not what he said... he said that stopping a train AFTER it hit somebody is a bit pointless (read BEFORE would be better ). And (I reckon I will get jumped on for this ), I have to admit, there is certain logic in his thinking.


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## Merry Crisis (1 December 2011)

I dont think that you can compare the two Mrs D, the Andrew Sachs debacle was about a named person. Jeremys remark was aimed at unknown jumpers.


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## Fii (1 December 2011)

Jeremy Clarkson is a member on this forum.


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## martlin (1 December 2011)

Fii-ling Festive said:



			Jeremy Clarkson is a member on this forum. 

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Is he now? 
Does it change anything?


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## Fii (1 December 2011)

Change anything? like what?
 No just thought i would put my two pence worth in.


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## dressagelove (1 December 2011)

Fii-ling Festive said:



			Jeremy Clarkson is a member on this forum. 

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How on earth do u know that?? If he is; Hi Jeremy!!! I love you and think you are awesome!!!


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## Merry Crisis (1 December 2011)

Fii-ling Festive said:



			Jeremy Clarkson is a member on this forum. 

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IS HE!!! I cooked for him once, rabbit stew, god I bet he still remembers it!!!


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## martlin (1 December 2011)

Fii-ling Festive said:



			Change anything? like what?
 No just thought i would put my two pence worth in. 

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Dunno, ummm, trying to think of something funny or clever or both really...
nah, can't think of anything


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## Miss L Toe (1 December 2011)

Fii-ling Festive said:



			Jeremy Clarkson is a member on this forum. 

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Well there are plenty of idiots on here, so that does not surprise me/


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## ChesnutsRoasting (1 December 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			The remark which was offensive and not funny was that it did not matter if someone died by suicide in front of a train the authorities should not stop the train, ie not inconvenience anyone on the railway.
Well sorry, every such death has many many victims, who should be allowed to grieve and not have it made out to be a sick joke.
I think there were some who had to go after the Andrew Sachs telephone call, another of the same type of "joke".
		
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Exactly.

I have a sense of humor - Lee Evans was fantastic at the O2, laughed my m&s socks off, but the "comedian" Jeremy Clarksons "joke" about suicide on railway lines inconveniencing  him (well, he is part of the Chipping Norton Set, to be expected I suppose) was a step too far. Its akin to those other so-called comedians who "joke" about the disabled. Personally, I find it worrying that so many posters here admire his rhetoric without questioning why he courts controversy. Ah, I know, you can purchase it here http://www.amazon.co.uk/Clarkson-Po...HPK6/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1322764405&sr=8-5 - super reviews by the way


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## noblesteed (1 December 2011)

See this is where it all goes wrong. What the media and the Government are saying about our pensions is lies and rubbish! People really need to get their facts right!!!!!

For example Jen_Cots - We in the public sector do NOT pay 3% of our salary into pensions. We ALREADY pay 6% - the government is planning to INCREASE that by 3.5 % making our monthly contribution nearly 10%. That raises my monthly contribution to my pension from £341 per month as it currently is, to around £420 a month. 

The money that I cirrently pay into the pensions fund goes directly to the people who are currently being paid a teacher's pension. The TAX PAYER does not pay it! I do!!! THe idea is when I retire the teachers who are paying into THEIR pension will actually be paying ME...

I don't regard £420 a month as a 'cheap' pension!!!!! Crikey I didn;t realise it was that much til I looked at it....

 How many of you Private sector workers pay over £400 a month into your pension???


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## Merry Crisis (1 December 2011)

Fii-ling Festive said:



			Change anything? like what?
 No just thought i would put my two pence worth in. 

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*Whisper his user name* go on Fii, go on!!!


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## Miss L Toe (1 December 2011)

martlin said:



			Actually, that's not what he said... he said that stopping a train AFTER it hit somebody is a bit pointless (read BEFORE would be better ). And (I reckon I will get jumped on for this ), I have to admit, there is certain logic in his thinking.
		
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More idiots than Clarkson on here, apparently


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## dressagelove (1 December 2011)

martlin said:



			Actually, that's not what he said... he said that stopping a train AFTER it hit somebody is a bit pointless (read BEFORE would be better ). And (I reckon I will get jumped on for this ), I have to admit, there is certain logic in his thinking.
		
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A brave thing to say, but I agree with you. there is logic behind it. And that doesnt make us idiots MrsD123


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## ChesnutsRoasting (1 December 2011)

Jezza, if you're reading this, love the fact that you love donkeys - fantastic animals aren't they? But lets just keep one ass in the family, shall we?


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## Rollin (1 December 2011)

martlin said:



			Actually, that's not what he said... he said that stopping a train AFTER it hit somebody is a bit pointless (read BEFORE would be better ). And (I reckon I will get jumped on for this ), I have to admit, there is certain logic in his thinking.
		
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It was not the idea of insensitivity to suicide which amused me but the faultless logic.  

My French vet came to examine one of my Cleveland Bays and asked if she was eating well I replied "She is a Cleveland Bay they only stop eating when they are dead".  Logic!!


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## stencilface (1 December 2011)

noblesteed said:



			See this is where it all goes wrong. What the media and the Government are saying about our pensions is lies and rubbish! People really need to get their facts right!!!!!

For example Jen_Cots - We in the public sector do NOT pay 3% of our salary into pensions. We ALREADY pay 6% - the government is planning to INCREASE that by 3.5 % making our monthly contribution nearly 10%. That raises my monthly contribution to my pension from £341 per month as it currently is, to around £420 a month. 

The money that I cirrently pay into the pensions fund goes directly to the people who are currently being paid a teacher's pension. The TAX PAYER does not pay it! I do!!! THe idea is when I retire the teachers who are paying into THEIR pension will actually be paying ME...

I don't regard £420 a month as a 'cheap' pension!!!!! Crikey I didn;t realise it was that much til I looked at it....

 How many of you Private sector workers pay over £400 a month into your pension???
		
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I'll be honest though, all public sector pay comes from the government, therefore all comes from taxes of some variety. So it is the private sector taxpayers that pay for your pension  

TBH I don't get why public sector workers even pay tax, whats the point of taxing people who are paid with taxes? May as well get paid less, and not pay the taxes imho.  That would also cut down on LOTS of paperwork, and likely cut costs quite a bit 

I don't pay much into my pension, but private sector pay is low atm I can't afford to pay in anymore


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## FairyLights (1 December 2011)

noblesteed said:



			See this is where it all goes wrong. What the media and the Government are saying about our pensions is lies and rubbish! People really need to get their facts right!!!!!

For example Jen_Cots - We in the public sector do NOT pay 3% of our salary into pensions. We ALREADY pay 6% - the government is planning to INCREASE that by 3.5 % making our monthly contribution nearly 10%. That raises my monthly contribution to my pension from £341 per month as it currently is, to around £420 a month. 

The money that I cirrently pay into the pensions fund goes directly to the people who are currently being paid a teacher's pension. The TAX PAYER does not pay it! I do!!! THe idea is when I retire the teachers who are paying into THEIR pension will actually be paying ME...

I don't regard £420 a month as a 'cheap' pension!!!!! Crikey I didn;t realise it was that much til I looked at it....

 How many of you Private sector workers pay over £400 a month into your pension???
		
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Does that mean that you earn over £4,200 per month???????????
Crikey! our household NET income is £1,250 per month, both me and DH would LOVE to be paying £400 and odd into a pension,as it is we have only the state pension to look forward too at 67 years of age.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (1 December 2011)

dressagelove said:



			A brave thing to say, but I agree with you. there is logic behind it. And that doesnt make us idiots MrsD123
		
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No, it doesn't make you an idiot, insensitive perhaps to the feelings of those whose loved ones have been mangled by an inter city train doing 100mph.


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## stencilface (1 December 2011)

Horsesforever1 said:



			Does that mean that you earn over £4,200 per month???????????
Crikey! our household NET income is £1,250 per month, both me and DH would LOVE to be paying £400 and odd into a pension,as it is we have only the state pension to look forward too at 67 years of age.
		
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I didn't even notice that


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## Rollin (1 December 2011)

Tinselface said:



			I didn't even notice that 

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I did the same calculation.


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## Mrs B (1 December 2011)

noblesteed said:



			How many of you Private sector workers pay over £400 a month into your pension???
		
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You're joking! I had to stop paying into mine 4 years ago as a freelance. So you want MY tax to safeguard YOUR pension when I can't afford one of my own? And you're on £4,200 a month?

I had my pension statement this morning. It has lost 7.9% in value in 6 months. But there's no point in me bleating about it - it's the way it is. We had massive growth, we are now in recession and we have to all put up and shut up.

And back on topic - it seems to me that we manage to get offended at the drop of a hat these days. I'd rather JC's comments, taken with a large pinch of salt than the faux outrage of the politically correct.


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## millitiger (1 December 2011)

Horsesforever1 said:



			Does that mean that you earn over £4,200 per month???????????
Crikey! our household NET income is £1,250 per month, both me and DH would LOVE to be paying £400 and odd into a pension,as it is we have only the state pension to look forward too at 67 years of age.
		
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I did the same calculation as well- if you are earning over £4k a month I really don't think you should be too concerned about your pension going up by a few percent!


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## Slinkyunicorn (1 December 2011)

Back to original post - I saw the Jezza on the One Show - thought it was hilarious - the comment on the trains, although may have been tasteless to some, is exactly the sort of comment you hear daily when commuting oin London - the announcment comes over and you hear the train/platform collectively say 'Why do they have to do it in rush hour?' it is more a reflection on the attitude of commuters and having to live our lives clock watching

Anyone else see the irony in Unions calling for JC to be scaked without going therough a long drawn out disciplinary procedure that they would be demanding for one of their own memebers?

It should also be remembered that most of these Union leaders are picking up salaries of £100k+ with nice big pensions to match.......

I expect there will be another petition for JC to be Prime Minister........


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## Grey_Eventer (1 December 2011)

Brilliant man. 
I think people need to realise that after years and years of being given so much by the government, somewhere cuts are going to have to be made. We cannot continue to live in the way we previously were. There is no more money to do so. Everyone needs to just knuckle down and shut up. We will come out of recession, but it takes time. 
The conservative government came into power in a shocking time, and are doing what is needed to get us out of this situation. They may lose popularity over it, but at least they are doing something about it! Labour just let the economy boom- do politicians ever read history books? boom and bust? 
*rant over* 
Hed get my vote!


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## suestowford (1 December 2011)

martlin said:



			Actually, that's not what he said... he said that stopping a train AFTER it hit somebody is a bit pointless (read BEFORE would be better ). And (I reckon I will get jumped on for this ), I have to admit, there is certain logic in his thinking.
		
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He shows faulty logic suggesting that it's pointless stopping a train after it's hit someone. OK, it's pointless from the point of view of the suicide, but not for all those on the train.
Someone has to remove the body parts and make sure the train isn't damaged by the collision. And the driver will probably be in a state of shock, being an ordinary human being with (hopefully) some compassion.


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## Doncella (1 December 2011)

Horsesforever1 said:



			I agree Jeremy and you get my vote. JC for PM The country would soon be back on its feet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuuDnqSPnhA

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Me too.


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## Goldenstar (1 December 2011)

He's a hoot, the world is just too  getting full of PC crap! I enjoy his out bursts and taking them seriously is as stupid as getting wound up about Tom and Jerry .
however there are a lot of stupid people out their who take themselves way to seriously .
Live long and shock Jeremy , might be time to ditch the ridiculously PC BBC.


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## AengusOg (1 December 2011)

Clarkson is a ****** (rhymes with Banker), and a despicable individual.

Who does he think he is? 

Anyone who views those comments as a joke, in this day and age, is a feckwit.

Maybe it's an English thing, cos I just don't get him at all.


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## Goldenstar (1 December 2011)

Everyone knows what the clarkson brand is about if you dont like don't listen .


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## Merry Crisis (1 December 2011)

AengusOg said:



			Clarkson is a ****** (rhymes with Banker), and a despicable individual.

Who does he think he is? 

Anyone who views those comments as a joke, in this day and age, is a feckwit.

Maybe it's an English thing, cos I just don't get him at all.
		
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I am not suprised at all that you dont get him at all. He is able to string a sentence together.


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## Mrs B (1 December 2011)

AengusOg said:



			Clarkson is a ****** (rhymes with Banker), and a despicable individual.

Who does he think he is? 

Anyone who views those comments as a joke, in this day and age, is a feckwit.

Maybe it's an English thing, cos I just don't get him at all.
		
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Then I'm a feckwit.

The whole point about Jeremy is that he is incredulous that anyone takes what he says seriously, as they seem to do, just because he's on the telly.

And if they DO take him seriously? Well, more fool them. That's the joke.


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## perfect11s (1 December 2011)

noblesteed said:



			See this is where it all goes wrong. What the media and the Government are saying about our pensions is lies and rubbish! People really need to get their facts right!!!!!

For example Jen_Cots - We in the public sector do NOT pay 3% of our salary into pensions. We ALREADY pay 6% - the government is planning to INCREASE that by 3.5 % making our monthly contribution nearly 10%. That raises my monthly contribution to my pension from £341 per month as it currently is, to around £420 a month. 

The money that I cirrently pay into the pensions fund goes directly to the people who are currently being paid a teacher's pension. The TAX PAYER does not pay it! I do!!! THe idea is when I retire the teachers who are paying into THEIR pension will actually be paying ME...

I don't regard £420 a month as a 'cheap' pension!!!!! Crikey I didn;t realise it was that much til I looked at it....

 How many of you Private sector workers pay over £400 a month into your pension???
		
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I think what the unions are saying is stuff everyone else we want our bit  like they always do and to hell with the fall out,, there will be realistic pensions and wages or far fewer public sector workers  if this self indugent crap continues, I hope the goverment stand up to these tinpot dictators  the public sector makes no money they provide a service at a cost that cost is too high relitive to the income of the country..just   simple economics ...


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## Django Pony (1 December 2011)

Mrs B said:



			You're joking! I had to stop paying into mine 4 years ago as a freelance. So you want MY tax to safeguard YOUR pension when I can't afford one of my own? And you're on £4,200 a month?

And back on topic - it seems to me that we manage to get offended at the drop of a hat these days. I'd rather JC's comments, taken with a large pinch of salt than the faux outrage of the politically correct.
		
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^^^This!!


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## honeymum (1 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Very funny,  and he isn't alone in his thoughts!!  Well said Clarkson,  you're working for the greater good,  it's only a shame that those who would strike,  don't.

I'd go further;  sack those who strike,  and fill their places with the all so often equally qualified,  unemployed.  Let's see how the wannabe strikers manage on the dole! 

Alec.

ps.  As a foot note,  I'm wearing my _Pedantic_ hat!! 

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I totally agree!!


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## AengusOg (1 December 2011)

Actually, my eight year old son was watching the programme, and was genuinely worried that people could be taken out and shot in front of their families. Some joke.


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## perfect11s (1 December 2011)

AengusOg said:



			Clarkson is a ****** (rhymes with Banker), and a despicable individual.

Who does he think he is? 

Anyone who views those comments as a joke, in this day and age, is a feckwit.

Maybe it's an English thing, cos I just don't get him at all.
		
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 I doubt I would have a sense of humor  either if I lived somewhere it rains and is cold most of the year


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## Merry Crisis (1 December 2011)

AengusOg said:



			Actually, my eight year old son was watching the programme, and was genuinely worried that people could be taken out and shot in front of their families. Some joke.
		
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Were you not articulate enough to explain to your 8 year old that maybe he was just joking. But................ perhaps not.


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## Goldenstar (1 December 2011)

perfect11s said:



			I doubt I would have a sense of humor  either if I lived somewhere it rains and is cold most of the year 

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I did not notice that good point


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## Goldenstar (1 December 2011)

AengusOg said:



			Actually, my eight year old son was watching the programme, and was genuinely worried that people could be taken out and shot in front of their families. Some joke.
		
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if that's the hardest thing you have to explain to him you will be lucky it was just a huge example of the if you do that I'll wring your neck type non PC joke that's lots of adults use all the time.
You should just have either removed the little mite from the room the moment you saw clarkson on the TV or used your own censor, the off switch.


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## Fii (1 December 2011)

Merry Crisis said:



			*Whisper his user name* go on Fii, go on!!!
		
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http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=477554&highlight=jeremy+Clarkson

 Now i may be wrong, but if you were going to impersonate someone like Jeremy you would make a good troll job of it , and this person is quite "normal!"
 A sad thread, but you will find "jezza" from page two, like i said i may be wrong!


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## Pedantic (1 December 2011)

Tinselface said:



			I'll be honest though, all public sector pay comes from the government, therefore all comes from taxes of some variety. So it is the private sector taxpayers that pay for your pension  

TBH I don't get why public sector workers even pay tax, whats the point of taxing people who are paid with taxes? May as well get paid less, and not pay the taxes imho.  That would also cut down on LOTS of paperwork, and likely cut costs quite a bit 

I don't pay much into my pension, but private sector pay is low atm I can't afford to pay in anymore 

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Thats a brilliant idea


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## Fantasy_World (1 December 2011)

I just think JC is funny, entertaining and I do agree with a lot of what he says a lot of the time.


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## Goldenstar (1 December 2011)

Fantasy_World said:



			I just think JC is funny, entertaining and I do agree with a lot of what he says a lot of the time.
		
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SO quietly do lots of people.


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## AengusOg (1 December 2011)

Goldenstar said:



			if that's the hardest thing you have to explain to him you will be lucky it was just a huge example of the if you do that I'll wring your neck type non PC joke that's lots of adults use all the time.
You should just have either removed the little mite from the room the moment you saw clarkson on the TV or used your own censor, the off switch.
		
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I would be very sad if either of my sons developed a sense of humour like Clarkson's. We tend not to encourage such egotistical behaviour up here. Whether that is weather-related or not, or just attributable to a sense of decency, I couldn't say.

Unfortunately, just like the BBC, I was caught out by the unexpected.


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## Goldenstar (1 December 2011)

Nothing unexpected about Clarkson


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## perfect11s (1 December 2011)

AengusOg said:



			I would be very sad if either of my sons developed a sense of humour like Clarkson's. We tend not to encourage such egotistical behaviour up here. Whether that is weather-related or not, or just attributable to a sense of decency, I couldn't say.

Unfortunately, just like the BBC, I was caught out by the unexpected.
		
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OH dear !!!!
Dour scot alert!!!!


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## Kiribati_uk (1 December 2011)

OMG how freaking sensitive are people??!! 
I think certain people need to buy themselves some bubblewrap, life is not all fluffy bunnies.
So JC said things that people didn't like AND? Whatever happened to FREEDOM OF SPEECH!! 
I hate cornation street it offends me greatly, so what do I do not watch it! Hey presto problem solved!!!


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## Kadastorm (1 December 2011)

i havent read through the thread. 

i found him rather funny, people are too serious these days. 
i can understand people are frustrated but at least these strikers have a job. there are many out there who dont and would jump at the chance to be able to come off the dole. 

So yes, i like Clarkson and his non PC ways.


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## Lizzie66 (1 December 2011)

Hardly the "unexpected", the BBC introduced him as someone who says outrageous things. 

His whole style is pushing the boundaries and making tongue in cheek satirical comments that will offend those who take themselves and life too seriously.

If you don't like his style of humour then turn the telly off.


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## Sarah Sum1 (1 December 2011)

Kiribati_uk said:



			OMG how freaking sensitive are people??!! 
I think certain people need to buy themselves some bubblewrap, life is not all fluffy bunnies.
So JC said things that people didn't like AND? Whatever happened to FREEDOM OF SPEECH!! 
I hate cornation street it offends me greatly, so what do I do not watch it! Hey presto problem solved!!!
		
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Surely freedom of speech means that those who dislike what he said, have the right to say so. 

I have no opinion either way, I don't really watch him, I did listen to him on radio 1 the other day and he made me laugh a couple of times. I like top gear occaisonally. That's about it.


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## ottodyl1 (1 December 2011)

Those of you who agree with Jeremy Clarkson are quite right - there should be freedom of speech.  However, let's hope none of you need to be treated in an NHS hospital in the future as half the staff will have been shot & not been replaced due to posts being frozen!  The remaining staff (many of whom would be nearing their 70's & having to borrow their patients' zimmer frames) would collapse from having to do the work of half a dozen people & be retired early.  Therefore, people would need to pay for private healthcare so the NHS could be abolished - That would certainly save the government some more money - what a great idea!!!


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## Lizzie66 (1 December 2011)

ottodyl1 said:



			Those of you who agree with Jeremy Clarkson are quite right - there should be freedom of speech.  However, let's hope none of you need to be treated in an NHS hospital in the future as half the staff will have been shot & not been replaced due to posts being frozen!  The remaining staff (many of whom would be nearing their 70's & having to borrow their patients' zimmer frames) would collapse from having to do the work of half a dozen people & be retired early.  Therefore, people would need to pay for private healthcare so the NHS could be abolished - That would certainly save the government some more money - what a great idea!!!
		
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Yes but if they were all shot, approx 2m according to the unions, just think we could get rid of unemployment in one fell swoop, and think of the money we'd save on pensions !!!


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## henryhorn (1 December 2011)

Now I was deeply offended by that comedien who made jokes about Katie Price's son, and even more so by the jokes about Down's Syndrome, but I take JC's comments totally as they are meant, total tosh. 
He doesn't MEAN what he says he's just joking, and anyone who listens to him more than once soon understands that. 
There's a world of difference in making a joke knowing full well you will offend people and making one because  you sometimes open your mouth before your brain is in gear (clever that!) .  I think he just says stuff for effect but doesn't mean a word of it. (his wife would probably chop his whatsit off if he did..)


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## Pedantic (1 December 2011)

AengusOg said:



			I would be very sad if either of my sons developed a sense of humour like Clarkson's. We tend not to encourage such egotistical behaviour up here. Whether that is weather-related or not, or just attributable to a sense of decency, I couldn't say.

Unfortunately, just like the BBC, I was caught out by the unexpected.
		
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My wife is Scotch, I know you hate that , a nation of people where men wear skirts with no nicks on and stand in fields of thistles waist high , well hard or crackers ? wonder what jezzer would say


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## Goldenstar (1 December 2011)

henryhorn said:



			Now I was deeply offended by that comedien who made jokes about Katie Price's son, and even more so by the jokes about Down's Syndrome, but I take JC's comments totally as they are meant, total tosh. 
He doesn't MEAN what he says he's just joking, and anyone who listens to him more than once soon understands that. 
There's a world of difference in making a joke knowing full well you will offend people and making one because  you sometimes open your mouth before your brain is in gear (clever that!) .  I think he just says stuff for effect but doesn't mean a word of it. (his wife would probably chop his whatsit off if he did..)
		
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Exactly and he says that stuff because that's the Clarkson brand and it's what he is paid for  its just not news worthy it would have been newsworthy if the archbishop of Canterbury said it.


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## ottodyl1 (1 December 2011)

Lizzie66 said:



			Yes but if they were all shot, approx 2m according to the unions, we could get rid of unemployment in fell swoop, and think of the money we'd save on pensions !
		
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True - but imagine those hospital bills!  Although if everyone was being shot there would be no need for hospitals.  Undertakers would be in great demand.  Just think, annoying, obnoxious, narrow minded TV presenters could be executed on public TV.  Now that would be entertainment!


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## martlin (1 December 2011)

Goldenstar said:



			... it would have been newsworthy if the archbishop of Canterbury said it.
		
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Now THAT I would like to see  especially the reaction of the presenters


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## Goldenstar (1 December 2011)

Sarah Sum1 FrostyBum said:



			Surely freedom of speech means that those who dislike what he said, have the right to say so. 

I have no opinion either way, I don't really watch him, I did listen to him on radio 1 the other day and he made me laugh a couple of times. I like top gear occaisonally. That's about it. 

Click to expand...

Of course they have have the right to say they don't like it but should he have to say sorry have the unions say he should be sacked , sacked for making a joke, some nutter from a union has just been on the telly saying it was insightment to hatred , OMG I despair Europe financial system in in ruins and we devote hours of news time to a ( arguably ) bad taste joke Oh no..how long have I wasted on this tonight help I am off for a Gin.


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## flyingfeet (1 December 2011)

I'm glad we have people like Jeremy Clarkson about!!

He made most people snort their tea through their nose - because it was so wrong, but yet so right!! 

The unions wanting to press charges are a good example of organisations that take themselves far too seriously. 

Jeremy Clarkson is a comedian, plain and simple - if your children were offended and worried by his comments, I'd be incredibly surprised as I've heard far worse outside schools!


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## NinjaPony (1 December 2011)

I think the whole thing is ridiculous. Its Jeremy Clarkson for gods sake! That well known beacon of political correctness  It's not like he actually means it!
It has all been blow out of proportion- just a silly comment to make you splutter on your tea, maybe shake your head and thats it. If it was someone like Dvaid Cameron- it would be headline news!


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## CorvusCorax (1 December 2011)

Er, where is Frankie Boyle from again, I am pretty sure he isn't English....


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## Merry Crisis (1 December 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Er, where is Frankie Boyle from again, I am pretty sure he isn't English....
		
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Hahaha! put that in your pipe Angus Og!!!!!


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## AengusOg (1 December 2011)

I don't like Frankie Boyle either, but he is a comedian. Clarkson is a presenter who thinks he's funny. More a comic figure.

Pedantic, I doubt your wife is 'Scotch'. It's whisky. She may be spirited, but Scotch she is not. I think you'll find she's Scottish, or a Scot, or Scots by birth. That's pedantic for you, eh?

Methinks you are all comedians down there, but we don't find the ones up here too funny.

It doesn't really matter anyway, as all the bad boys come good sooner or later. Jonathan Ross, Russell Brand, Vinnie Jones, the wee politician who was jailed, wrote a book, then was let out and became a lord...it seems the badder they are the more you love them.


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## Maesfen (1 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Very funny,  and he isn't alone in his thoughts!!  Well said Clarkson,  you're working for the greater good,  it's only a shame that those who would strike,  don't.

I'd go further;  sack those who strike,  and fill their places with the all so often equally qualified,  unemployed.  Let's see how the wannabe strikers manage on the dole! 

Alec.

ps.  As a foot note,  I'm wearing my _Pedantic_ hat!! 

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Spot on!
If you don't like the job or conditions let someone else have it.


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## noblesteed (1 December 2011)

Mrs B I don't earn £4200 a month!!! I take home less than half that! THis is why I don't think my marvellous public sector pension is very cheap!!!! Certainly not how the government is deceitfully describing it!!!! I am VERY surprised by the amount my pension contributions will increase... I don't think that much of my salary SHOULD be taken by a pension... In fact my husband and I are now looking for alternatives to our 'wonderful' public sector pensions... 

And actually not only does your tax pay my pension it ALSO pays my salary!!!!!

Otherwise who would run the schools your kids attend? They get a free education don't they? And a darned good one if they were at my school. Though it won't be when I'm still dothering around the classroom at 67...


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## AengusOg (2 December 2011)

I am, of course, only joking, so don't expect an apology.


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## AengusOg (2 December 2011)

Archer...that's it, Jeffrey Archer.

Don't worry, we've got one or two up here. Notably Donald Findlay, QC, caught singing sectarian songs but retained his position.

Great examples of decent behaviour, all of them. I don't think so.

You see, there's right...and then there's wrong.


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## CorvusCorax (2 December 2011)

Er, I'm not English, although I am not sure why this has turned into an English-bashing argument....oh and Vinnie Jones, played international football for...Wales


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## AengusOg (2 December 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Er, I'm not English, although I am not sure why this has turned into an English-bashing argument....oh and Vinnie Jones, played international football for...Wales 

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Still a bad boy with a big following. I'm not bashing the English...they don't feel it anyway...it just happens that Clarkson is English.

I don't seem to be able to use smilies.


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## CorvusCorax (2 December 2011)

Well at least make it funny, make reference to their love for invading and occupying other countries yet calling invaders and occupiers wrong, and of course, their belief that shouting louder in English will compensate for them not being arsed to learn a foreign language.

Ya see, I **hope** all the English people on this thread will that this in the spirit it's intended


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## martlin (2 December 2011)

noblesteed said:



			Mrs B I don't earn £4200 a month!!! I take home less than half that! THis is why I don't think my marvellous public sector pension is very cheap!!!! Certainly not how the government is deceitfully describing it!!!! I am VERY surprised by the amount my pension contributions will increase... I don't think that much of my salary SHOULD be taken by a pension... In fact my husband and I are now looking for alternatives to our 'wonderful' public sector pensions... 

And actually not only does your tax pay my pension it ALSO pays my salary!!!!!

Otherwise who would run the schools your kids attend? They get a free education don't they? And a darned good one if they were at my school. Though it won't be when I'm still dothering around the classroom at 67...
		
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NOTHING is free, neither is education, otherwise you wouldn't get a salary


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## Mince Pie (2 December 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Er, I'm not English, although I am not sure why this has turned into an English-bashing argument....oh and Vinnie Jones, played international football for...Wales 

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We like to bash the Sassenachs at every available opportunity...


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## firm (2 December 2011)

Well WD and others, now you know how it felt when Brown did his pension raid on the private sector and we were asked to pay extra by companies and lose benefits.  
The public pensions have been a problem for ages on how to finance them but nobody has wanted to tackle it.


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## _April_ (2 December 2011)

perfect11s said:



			I doubt I would have a sense of humor  either if I lived somewhere it rains and is cold most of the year 

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perfect11s said:



			OH dear !!!!
Dour scot alert!!!!
		
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OI!   I have all JC's books


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## Pedantic (2 December 2011)

AengusOg said:



			I don't like Frankie Boyle either, but he is a comedian. Clarkson is a presenter who thinks he's funny. More a comic figure.

Pedantic, I doubt your wife is 'Scotch'. It's whisky. She may be spirited, but Scotch she is not. I think you'll find she's Scottish, or a Scot, or Scots by birth. That's pedantic for you, eh?

Methinks you are all comedians down there, but we don't find the ones up here too funny.

It doesn't really matter anyway, as all the bad boys come good sooner or later. Jonathan Ross, Russell Brand, Vinnie Jones, the wee politician who was jailed, wrote a book, then was let out and became a lord...it seems the badder they are the more you love them.
		
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Maybe it's the wind up there, but it went straight over your head I said "scotch" for a reason


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## Turitea (2 December 2011)

This guy is only a TV presenter... he is not the prime minister! Why are so many people obsessed with comments a Jeremy Clarkson make?


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## Queenbee87 (2 December 2011)

Noblesteed- if pension contributions are 9.5% and you pay £420 per month (£5,040 per year), that would make your salary in the region of £53k a year. Obviously that's subject to tax but that's how salaries are generally stated.

I don't pay £420 per month into my pension because it would be nearly a quarter of my current salary. Given I don't have the luxury of a DB pension scheme I am reluctant (and unable to afford) to invest so heavily in my risky pension as there are still well over 40 years left for my entire fund to be all but wiped out!  

I don't understand how pretty much every DB pension scheme I've come across is struggling, with sponsoring employers having to make significant deficit funding contributions, yet public sector pensions are apparently able to meet their projections?


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## Queenbee87 (2 December 2011)

Edit: don't think my pension scheme would even allow me to make 25% contributions even if I could afford it/ wanted to (can't edit my post as I'm on my phone


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## perfect11s (2 December 2011)

I Queenbeelieve in Santa said:



			Noblesteed- if pension contributions are 9.5% and you pay £420 per month (£5,040 per year), that would make your salary in the region of £53k a year. Obviously that's subject to tax but that's how salaries are generally stated.

I don't pay £420 per month into my pension because it would be nearly a quarter of my current salary. Given I don't have the luxury of a DB pension scheme I am reluctant (and unable to afford) to invest so heavily in my risky pension as there are still well over 40 years left for my entire fund to be all but wiped out!  

I don't understand how pretty much every DB pension scheme I've come across is struggling, with sponsoring employers having to make significant deficit funding contributions, yet public sector pensions are apparently able to meet their projections?
		
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  Its because one is subject to economics and reality and the other is underwriten by the tax payer and subject to fantasy....


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## Miss L Toe (2 December 2011)

Lizzie66 said:



			If you don't like his style of humour then turn the telly off.
		
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I watch top Gear quite regularly, but it is scripted, and not live,  so he is in control/under control, I did turn off the TV but only after he made the remark about trains [ which incidentally he does not use [allegedly], and I am sure he won't be welcome if he tries to get on one in the near future]., so lets hope he get a lifetime ban for driving [ha ha lets all laugh when he goes though a brick wall  and has to use public transport, though no doubt he can afford to pay a driver, well, as long as he is employed and not disabled.
Wouldn't it be hilarious if he got no more TV, we would all have to PAY to go and see him at the theatre, where we will laugh uproariously and throw rotten eggs.


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## Lizzie66 (2 December 2011)

wonkey_donkey said:



			JC is a total ****ing bell-end. 
Glad he thinks it's so funny. 
I pay £400 a month into my 'gold gilted' publc sector pension which I can just about afford and now they want me to pay another £140 a month (which I don't have) and work 8 years longer to get 30% less return.
Wish I had just gone on the dole at 17 years old and stayed on it for my working life cos it appears working hard for a living and making provisions for my old age was not the responsible thing to do after all.
Sack the knob head 

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If your contribution is going up by 3% and this equates to £140, then you are on £56k a year. Therefore even after your pension contribution you will be on in excess of £4k per month !

There are also a large number of public sector workers who are on more modest salaries and this probably will cause some of them genuine hardship. Its people like you that make the vast majority of private sector employed people very unsupportive of the public sector and tend to agree with the sentiment behind JC's comments.


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## noblesteed (2 December 2011)

As I said I currently pay £340 a month into pension, but government want to RAISE that to around £420 ( £80 increase) In April.
This is what I went on strike about, that and having to work til I'm 67!!!!! Who wants a 67 year old teacher?

I am slighlty concerned that I have been paying this much per month into my pension because I take home £2000. It IS deducted before tax but my gross pay was £3000. meaning I lose £1000 in deductions... So that MUST be more than 6% I am paying, its more like 12...

I think I had better get on to payroll, because thats approx 11% of my gross pay, 20% of my take-home. Not the piddly amount (3-6%) the government is saying that we pay! My point is they are saying our pensions are cheap, I am saying NO THEY"RE NOT!!!! ANd they will be even MORE expensive once April comes!

I am only a middle-manager in a school. I am NOT rich or overpaid like people are implying!!!!! I have a 3-bed house in a nice area for which the mortgage costs over £1000 a month. I am only now, at 33, just to say earning enough to be able to afford to have children.

Maybe I should have gone on the dole at 17 instead of paying my way through university and working my socks off teaching at some very tough schools. I could have had plenty of kids by now.


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## BBH (2 December 2011)

Well for my twopennieth I am fed up with people jumping on the bandwaggon of offense everytime someone opens their mouth.
If someone says something you don't agree with or like just right them off as an idiot, end of.

We are going to end up with the thought police soon and its getting tiresome having all this analysis all the time. What was interesting was the comment from a wider perspective following the Fifa bosses comments re racism in that its only ever the British who read offense into everything and its because we're such a melting pot that british powers that be have to condemn anything remotely likely to offend in case it causes unrest. 

Clarkson was put up to this by BBC producers. You know what you get with him and if you see the whole clip and not just the edited version you see the context is tongue in cheek.


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## Kat (2 December 2011)

perfect11s said:



			I'm not his bigest fan however  he does upset all the right people, the ones that make our lives harder less fun or dull  so go on jezza you give it to em straight... the po faced PC brigade, the beardy yogurt knitters the envronMentalists... the jobs worths, the non produtives .......
		
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tee hee yoghurt knitters! 

Did you hear Richard Herring this week? If not listen again to it, he was very funny talking about knitting with yoghurt on his high horse


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## Miss L Toe (2 December 2011)

BBH said:



			Clarkson was put up to this by BBC producers. You know what you get with him and if you see the whole clip and not just the edited version you see the context is tongue in cheek.
		
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The one show is a family type program which is not known for cutting edge comedy and for very good reason, it is family viewing, and the producers can expect to be hauled over the coals if they "put him up to this" I don't think they did judging by the horror on the face of the interviewer, and subsequent apologies.


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## Mrs B (2 December 2011)

noblesteed said:



			Mrs B I don't earn £4200 a month!!! I take home less than half that! THis is why I don't think my marvellous public sector pension is very cheap!!!! Certainly not how the government is deceitfully describing it!!!! I am VERY surprised by the amount my pension contributions will increase... I don't think that much of my salary SHOULD be taken by a pension... In fact my husband and I are now looking for alternatives to our 'wonderful' public sector pensions... 

And actually not only does your tax pay my pension it ALSO pays my salary!!!!!

Otherwise who would run the schools your kids attend? They get a free education don't they? And a darned good one if they were at my school. Though it won't be when I'm still dothering around the classroom at 67...
		
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But my point is there is not enough money to pay for everything at the same level as we have been - that's why we're so badly in debt as a country. So why should one group of people be more exempt from cuts, salary loss, working longer and smaller pensions? 
You CHOSE to do the job you do. As did I and no, I don't have children.
Would you prefer to take the money you think you _can_ afford to put into a pension and buy one like many others of us have to - only to watch it disappear faster than you can pay money in?
Life ain't fair and never has been.


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## BBH (2 December 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			The one show is a family type program which is not known for cutting edge comedy and for very good reason, it is family viewing, and the producers can expect to be hauled over the coals if they "put him up to this" I don't think they did judging by the horror on the face of the interviewer, and subsequent apologies.
		
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Its in the papers today.

They put him up to it and had arranged a joke but maybe jezza being jezza he added some poetic licence who knows.


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## Double_choc_lab (2 December 2011)

Jen_Cots said:



			I have an issue with the strikes - the defined benefit pension is not sustainable at final pay level. Very few companies offer this now, so why should the government?

My pension costs me 5%, and is worth less than funds invested. I'd love a defined benefit pension at 3% !!
		
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I'm not sure where the stats came from as I also saw that on TV but when I was in local authority I paid 6% pension and I believe 11% when in the police.


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## AengusOg (2 December 2011)

Pedantic said:



			Maybe it's the wind up there, but it went straight over your head I said "scotch" for a reason 

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Another wind-up merchant.


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## Miss L Toe (2 December 2011)

Re the public sector, the main point has been overlooked, these employees applied for a job and were selected as the most suitable candidates, they then signed up to a contract to work for the country, on a pre-determined salary scale plus pre - determined pensions and work conditions.
Suddenly the government finds itself in a complete mess, obviously the economists whom they employ [at great expense], "forgot" to tell them what was happening, OR they ignored the economists, AND common sense, allowed the country to build up debt [unlike Germany]. Even handing out nice extras like paternity leave, and other vote catching fripperies.
Suddenly they need to conjure up mega cuts in expenditure, and since Maggie Thatcher and her cohorts sold off the family silver[1980's] there is no "pot" to delve in to.
Suddenly they find out we are all living longer [what a surprise event], so will be taking more out of the pension fund annually than is going in.
They don't have a pension pot as such, it is current payments from employees,  not payments from current beneficiaries, unlike like the private pension schemes, where one person should be building up one pot.
To some of these workers, it must seem like they have been badly let down by their employers, and for this reason, they agreed to strike, as the only way to express their anger/discontent/dismay. 
There are other false sunrises in the Government's strategies which no one seems to have picked up on; this idea that everyone will work to age 67, well I have been unemployed since I was 50 or so, due to my age, I could not get a job, I had to start up a business, but due to creaking bones and age related weaknesses, I can't work as hard as if I were 25, and I am bumping along the bottom, many people are in the same position, but just imagine a 67 year old teacher trying to control a classroom of thirty or more school pupils aged 14. It won't work, and we will end up with massive mental health problems as people struggle to do their jobs.
Oh yes, and don't think the government will be sympathetic, they don't want people claiming disability benefit either.
If I were young and fit, I would apply for a passport, sell up and go somewhere else.


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## Luci07 (2 December 2011)

All interesting points though still not clear on the actual rights. However, we are a democracy, whether I agree with the public sector is largely irrelevant. I do support their right to strike and voice their opinion and concerns. However I also expect them in turn to allow others to respond. Yes Jeremy  Clarkson was a bit over the top. He always is, but we listen because there is normally some sense in what he is saying as well. Unions demanding his head for speaking out is quite frankly ridiculous and puts them in a poor light. 

The comedians jokes about Katie prices son are not in the same category at all. That was bullying of the offensive kind and he deserved Ms Price going after him for that. 

It all goes back it the old adage of "I may not like what you say but I defend your right to say it"


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## MerrySherryRider (2 December 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			The remark which was offensive and not funny was that it did not matter if someone died by suicide in front of a train the authorities should not stop the train, ie not inconvenience anyone on the railway.
Well sorry, every such death has many many victims, who should be allowed to grieve and not have it made out to be a sick joke.
I think there were some who had to go after the Andrew Sachs telephone call, another of the same type of "joke".
		
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I had a much loved uncle killed by a train and my DIL jumped from a bridge onto a railway line at the age of 15.

 Was I offended ? Nope.

 It was a joke, and those of us who have faced such grief are often less bothered by being offended where none was meant. 

My sympathy goes out to train drivers for whom jumpers are their worst nightmare but, I also have friends and relatives who are drivers and track workers, and they use black humour as a defense mechanism.

Jeremy is a breath of fresh air.


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## firm (2 December 2011)

MrsD123!!! You have become JC wth your ageist and offensive remark  "just imagine a 67 year old teacher trying to control a classroom of thirty or more school pupils aged 14. It won't work"   
I am sure there are many "old" teachers who have the experience to control classrooms much better than some young thing straight out of training. ;-)


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## Kat (2 December 2011)

Crikey people seem to think that 67 is absolutely ancient. Do we really believe that 67 year olds aren't capable of doing a proper and decent job? 

I have no doubt that a 67 year old could keep control of a class of badly behaved teenagers. At the secondary school I went to it was the young teachers who lacked control, not the older ones. In fact we had a part time teacher who worked beyond retirement, and was over 67 (she looked about 105...). She had a 100% attendance record, being one of only a couple of staff members who made it in during snow (she walked 6 miles to and from school every day)and if she taught your class you didn't think of misbehaving. She was terrifying! 

It is incredibly patronising to suggest that someone can't do a reasonable days work at age 67. 

For example Churchill was 65 when he first became prime minister and by the end of his last term he was 80. And the general opinion is that he did a pretty good job of leading the country through some of the most difficult times we have ever faced. He was 70 by the end of WW2! 

Ranulph Fiennes climbed Everest aged 65 (and in the same year gave Mr Clarkson himself a good ticking off.. and he's the epitomy of a a naughty schoolboy!)

And 67 is also the age of the oldest person to compete at the olympics, in the dressage. 

But forget all that at 67 all you will be good for is knitting in a rocking chair and sucking werthers originals!


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## BBH (2 December 2011)

FWIW I think this strike more than any other has divided opinion as public sector workers did not sign up for increased working lives and higher pension contributions. This whole mess has been caused by years of over spending by an incompetent government and now the chickens have come home to roost hard working tax payers are saddled with the burden.

I don't think the private sector / self employed have quite the same issue in that they would have known of the risks of uncertainty when entering the work pattern / place they chose, and we all know the self employed have the option of ' hiding' money. Its very evident down here the PAYE folk are struggling and all the brand new black range rover drivers are the self employed groundsworker, builders, skip hire people etc etc.      

Lets hope all those QUANGO costs and wastage and benefit fraud millions have been worth it cos it'll take years to get over this.


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## Kat (2 December 2011)

Nobody "signed up" to work to age 67, but the change will affect everyone as state pensions will not become available until then. Many private sector workers do not have a private pension or if they do it will be far to small to live off so any prospect of retiring early like so many baby boomers have has disappeared.

Oh and the self employed do not have the "option" of hiding money. Are you implying that the self employed all do, or should commit criminal offences?


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## Piglet (2 December 2011)

I don't see what the big issue is, I am on a LGPS but I didn't strike as I can't see where it us going to get us - anyway - JC lives and thrives on controversy and winding people up, I didn't get offended by it I just thought what a knobish statement to make!!


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## MerrySherryRider (2 December 2011)

LOL, thats true. When I was at school, back in the dark ages and taught by nuns, it was the young ones that couldn't keep control, whereas the ancient, wrinkly ones kept order with one look that had us trembling in our sandals.

 Yikes, Sister Veroncia and Sister Anne, may have been 4'11 and whizzened, but they were spritely and no one dared step out of line.


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## BBH (2 December 2011)

KristmasKatt said:



			Crikey people seem to think that 67 is absolutely ancient. Do we really believe that 67 year olds aren't capable of doing a proper and decent job? 

I have no doubt that a 67 year old could keep control of a class of badly behaved teenagers. At the secondary school I went to it was the young teachers who lacked control, not the older ones. In fact we had a part time teacher who worked beyond retirement, and was over 67 (she looked about 105...). She had a 100% attendance record, being one of only a couple of staff members who made it in during snow (she walked 6 miles to and from school every day)and if she taught your class you didn't think of misbehaving. She was terrifying! 
It is incredibly patronising to suggest that someone can't do a reasonable days work at age 67. 

For example Churchill was 65 when he first became prime minister and by the end of his last term he was 80. And the general opinion is that he did a pretty good job of leading the country through some of the most difficult times we have ever faced. He was 70 by the end of WW2! 

Ranulph Fiennes climbed Everest aged 65 (and in the same year gave Mr Clarkson himself a good ticking off.. and he's the epitomy of a a naughty schoolboy!)

But forget all that at 67 all you will be good for is knitting in a rocking chair and sucking werthers originals!
		
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People may be able to do a decent job but the question is no-one wants to. People may choose to work part time doing something they love rather than the pressure of a fulltime demanding job or travel , socialise,  etc etc but its their choice and that choice has been taken away. What if they die at 70 no retirement at all.


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## Fellewell (2 December 2011)

horserider said:



			LOL, thats true. When I was at school, back in the dark ages and taught by nuns, it was the young ones that couldn't keep control, whereas the ancient, wrinkly ones kept order with one look that had us trembling in our sandals.

 Yikes, Sister Veroncia and Sister Anne, may have been 4'11 and whizzened, but they were spritely and no one dared step out of line.
		
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The thing with nuns is we were their vocation. They had no outside interests and because of this it was impossible to get away with anything. Didn't stop us trying.

Jezza quote anyone?

"This is the Renault Espace, probably the best of the people carriers. Not that that's much to shout about. That's like saying 'Ooh good I've got syphilis, the BEST of the sexually transmitted diseases"


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## FairyLights (2 December 2011)

Noblesteed, nobody wants to work til they are 67 but we are going to have too.Your very generous pension is gold plated and paid for by the likes of us who are going to have to work longer and will only get £140 a week when we retire. Why on earth shouldnt you pay more into your pension pot? after all its for you when you come to retire not for me or anyone else. Get real,find a job outside the public sector with as good a pay and working conditions,and oh,i forgot,all those generous weeks holidays a year too. No wonder the country is in such trouble with scroungers like you milking it for all its got.


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## Mrs B (2 December 2011)

BBH said:



			People may be able to do a decent job but the question is no-one wants to. People may choose to work part time doing something they love rather than the pressure of a fulltime demanding job or travel , socialise,  etc etc but its their choice and that choice has been taken away. What if they die at 70 no retirement at all.
		
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It's not really a question of whether people WANT to. We're all going to HAVE to. And I think the comment about the self-employed 'hiding' money is a pretty crass one - a few might try, but they'll quite rightly get found out and punished.

That's why self-assessment tax payers are subject to sudden and rigorous tax inspections.


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## BBH (2 December 2011)

KristmasKatt said:



			Nobody "signed up" to work to age 67, but the change will affect everyone as state pensions will not become available until then. Many private sector workers do not have a private pension or if they do it will be far to small to live off so any prospect of retiring early like so many baby boomers have has disappeared.

Oh and the self employed do not have the "option" of hiding money. Are you implying that the self employed all do, or should commit criminal offences?
		
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You'd be very naive thinking money isn't hidden and the horseworld is  another huge culprit, gentlemans agreement its called isn't it. Yes its a criminal offense but loads of people are doing it. I've always been a 40% tax payer and always paid my dues but i've now come to realise how those who don't are so much better off.

One thing people are saying is you have to look after yourself because if your hour of need comes no-one else will, not even the government.


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## BBH (2 December 2011)

Mrs B said:



			It's not really a question of whether people WANT to. We're all going to HAVE to. And I think the comment about the self-employed 'hiding' money is a pretty crass one - a few might try, but they'll quite rightly get found out and punished.

That's why self-assessment tax payers are subject to sudden and rigorous tax inspections.
		
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I'm on your side,   if you read my comment i'm saying the choice has been taken away from you. Are you getting so emotive over this you're not reading fully.

Crass comment or not its real world.


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## Kat (2 December 2011)

BBH said:



			People may be able to do a decent job but the question is no-one wants to. People may choose to work part time doing something they love rather than the pressure of a fulltime demanding job or travel , socialise,  etc etc but its their choice and that choice has been taken away. What if they die at 70 no retirement at all.
		
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No the choice hasn't been taken away. Working until age 67 will not become compulsory, in the same way that it is not compulsory now to work to age 60. If you wish to retire early or go part time you will still be able to, but you will not get your state pension or in the case of public sector workers your occupational pension. If you have a private pension or other income though you can retire. 

If they die at 70 they will have had three years retirement. You don't have a right to any length of pension dying before the "average age" is unfortunate but it happens. The average life expectancy now has increased so far since retirement ages were set that the length of retirement most people have is simply unsustainable.


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## Kat (2 December 2011)

BBH said:



			I'm on your side,   if you read my comment i'm saying the choice has been taken away from you. Are you getting so emotive over this you're not reading fully.

Crass comment or not its real world.
		
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Actually your suggestion that the self employed are all engaged in fraud is about as crass as saying that all lorry drivers murder prostitutes. The difference is that Jezza was joking, you weren't.


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## BBH (2 December 2011)

KristmasKatt said:



			No the choice hasn't been taken away. Working until age 67 will not become compulsory, in the same way that it is not compulsory now to work to age 60. If you wish to retire early or go part time you will still be able to, but you will not get your state pension or in the case of public sector workers your occupational pension. If you have a private pension or other income though you can retire. 

If they die at 70 they will have had three years retirement. You don't have a right to any length of pension dying before the "average age" is unfortunate but it happens. The average life expectancy now has increased so far since retirement ages were set that the length of retirement most people have is simply unsustainable.
		
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It will be compulsory though if they can't afford to retire. The choice is you either work full term or retire earlier but on less money unless they can fund retirement another way ie buy to lets or something to increase income.

I agree you don't have a right to retirement but surely it would be nice. Some very harsh views there I think as most people have traditionally wanted to enjoy some retirement in good health. Besides when I was in Banking you were not wanted past 50 and noises were made about ' dead wood' so god knows how they'll feel with 60+ in the workplace.


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## Kat (2 December 2011)

BBH said:



			You'd be very naive thinking money isn't hidden and the horseworld is  another huge culprit, gentlemans agreement its called isn't it. Yes its a criminal offense but loads of people are doing it. I've always been a 40% tax payer and always paid my dues but i've now come to realise how those who don't are so much better off.

One thing people are saying is you have to look after yourself because if your hour of need comes no-one else will, not even the government.
		
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I don't think money isn't hidden, of course there are criminals out there who commit crimes. Many of them get caught, some don't. That doesn't mean that the self employed are somehow better off because they are in a position to commit a certain type of crime. It also doesn't mean that all self employed are criminals. 

There are a lot of honest self employed people who pay tax, and NI, and some of them employ others who also pay tax. The small business will be very important in getting this country out of recession.


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## BBH (2 December 2011)

KristmasKatt said:



			Actually your suggestion that the self employed are all engaged in fraud is about as crass as saying that all lorry drivers murder prostitutes. The difference is that Jezza was joking, you weren't.
		
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?????
Don't understand that at all.

Am signing out of this now its getting silly and ridiculous.


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## Mrs B (2 December 2011)

BBH said:



			Are you getting so emotive over this you're not reading fully.

Crass comment or not its real world.
		
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Hardly!  
I read your comment perfectly clearly.


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## Kat (2 December 2011)

BBH said:



			It will be compulsory though if they can't afford to retire. The choice is you either work full term or retire earlier but on less money unless they can fund retirement another way ie buy to lets or something to increase income.

As is the case now..... 

I agree you don't have a right to retirement but surely it would be nice. Some very harsh views there I think as most people have traditionally wanted to enjoy some retirement in good health. Besides when I was in Banking you were not wanted past 50 and noises were made about ' dead wood' so god knows how they'll feel with 60+ in the workplace.
		
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I guess either workplaces will get used to seeing more, older faces or what will happen is what happens in countries where there is less support for the elderly and people will cut their expenses and take on alternative retirement employment so that they can be semi-retired. In fact it is already happening, my Dad does consultancy and fixed term contracts to suppliment his pension, my father in law worked for a couple of years delivering meals on wheels until his state pension kicked in as he felt his time had come in his "main job". I anticipate that this will become more common.


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## Munchkin (2 December 2011)

Transcript, anyone?

_One Show presenter Matt Baker (MB): Now, at the end of a day where Britain has seen some of its biggest strikes, what we need is someone calm and level-headed.

One Show presenter Alex Jones (AJ): Yes, a guest with balanced, uncontroversial opinions, who makes great effort not to offend.

MB: And we have got Jeremy Clarkson.

Jeremy Clarkson: Thank you very much.

MB: So Jeremy, schools, hospitals, airports, even driving tests have been affected. Do you the strikes are a good idea?

Jeremy Clarkson: I think they have been fantastic. Seriously  London today has just been empty. Everybody stayed at home, you can whizz about, restaurants are empty.

AJ: The traffic actually has been very good today.

Jeremy Clarkson: Very light. Now airports, you know, people streaming through with no problems at all and it is also like being back in the 70s, it makes me feel at home somehow.

MB: Do you know anybody who has been on strike today?

Jeremy Clarkson: What, in public service? Of course I do not. No, absolutely. We have to balance it though, because this is the BBC.

MB: Yes. Exactly.

Jeremy Clarkson: Frankly, I would have them all shot. I would take them outside and execute them in front of their families. I mean how dare they go on strike when they have got these gilt-edged pensions that are going to be guaranteed while the rest of us have to work for a living?

MB: Well, on that note of balancing an opinion of course those are Jeremy's views.

AJ: Only Jeremy's views.

*Jeremy Clarkson: They are not. I was just giving two views for you.*_

Those of you working so hard to be offended by this, perhaps your energy would be better spent elsewhere? Just saying.


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## perfect11s (2 December 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			Re the public sector, the main point has been overlooked, these employees applied for a job and were selected as the most suitable candidates, they then signed up to a contract to work for the country, on a pre-determined salary scale plus pre - determined pensions and work conditions.
Suddenly the government finds itself in a complete mess, obviously the economists whom they employ [at great expense], "forgot" to tell them what was happening, OR they ignored the economists, AND common sense, allowed the country to build up debt [unlike Germany]. Even handing out nice extras like paternity leave, and other vote catching fripperies.
Suddenly they need to conjure up mega cuts in expenditure, and since Maggie Thatcher and her cohorts sold off the family silver[1980's] there is no "pot" to delve in to.
Suddenly they find out we are all living longer [what a surprise event], so will be taking more out of the pension fund annually than is going in.
They don't have a pension pot as such, it is current payments from employees,  not payments from current beneficiaries, unlike like the private pension schemes, where one person should be building up one pot.
To some of these workers, it must seem like they have been badly let down by their employers, and for this reason, they agreed to strike, as the only way to express their anger/discontent/dismay. 
There are other false sunrises in the Government's strategies which no one seems to have picked up on; this idea that everyone will work to age 67, well I have been unemployed since I was 50 or so, due to my age, I could not get a job, I had to start up a business, but due to creaking bones and age related weaknesses, I can't work as hard as if I were 25, and I am bumping along the bottom, many people are in the same position, but just imagine a 67 year old teacher trying to control a classroom of thirty or more school pupils aged 14. It won't work, and we will end up with massive mental health problems as people struggle to do their jobs.
Oh yes, and don't think the government will be sympathetic, they don't want people claiming disability benefit either.
If I were young and fit, I would apply for a passport, sell up and go somewhere else.
		
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Blame gordon brown  for over spending and making this country more unequal ..and as for the outrage about JCs remark well it looks like the unions and labour diverting attention from their failed strike  the damp squib toy throwing by these trouble
makers,it just sets the produtive side of the economy even more  against the public sector..
What part of sick of public sector moaning dont these union barrons get???


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## Kat (2 December 2011)

BBH said:



			?????
Don't understand that at all.

Am signing out of this now its getting silly and ridiculous.
		
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Let me explain. 

This thread is about Jeremy Clarkson. 

Not that long ago Jeremy got into trouble for making a comment about lorry drivers murdering prostitutes. The lorry dirvers got upset because the majority of them are honest, law abiding citizens who didn't appreciate being stereotyped. Jeremy was making a joke. 

You made a comment that implied you think all self employed people are criminals (hiding money from HMRC is a crime). Self employed people, and their families are upset about this because the vast majority are honest law abiding citizens who don't appreciate being stereotyped. You weren't making a joke. 

Get it now?


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## Kat (2 December 2011)

perfect11s said:



			Blame gordon brown  for over spending and making this country more unequal ...
		
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And for selling off the gold reserves, that was him, not Maggie!


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## BeesKnees (2 December 2011)

noblesteed said:



			I am slighlty concerned that I have been paying this much per month into my pension because I take home £2000. It IS deducted before tax but my gross pay was £3000. meaning I lose £1000 in deductions... So that MUST be more than 6% I am paying, its more like 12...
		
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Noblesteed, your pension is deducted before tax but after NI contributions which are paid at 12-14% (depending on what you earn). This means at £340 your deduction is around 7% - not 12%!!

Can I assume you don't teach maths?  

On a serious note - I'm sure you're not the only PS worker supporting the strike who doesn't know their figures. It is complicated, but it doesn't really garner sympathy. 

And one final point - PS workers do have the option to opt out of their scheme don't they? I wonder why, if the contributions are considered so high,  more PS worker don't?  Could it be that, for all the moaning by the strikers, it's still a damn sight better than anything provided privately?


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## MerrySherryRider (2 December 2011)

Latest poll on the telegraph website;http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...ks-21000-complaints-to-BBC.html#disqus_thread


Do you think Clarkson went too far with his comments ? 

 No, he was obviously joking.- 75.19%

 Thank goodness, commonsense rules.


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## FairyLights (2 December 2011)

Thanks for the link horserider, I have voted.JC for PM.


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## CorvusCorax (2 December 2011)

I'd love to have lots of money hidden away, hahahaha!
How much do you think self employed people actually earn?! Try a drop from £22k as staff to £11k as a freelance in one year!


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## Dovorian (2 December 2011)

Re Strikers - had to giggle as apparently the 'replacement' Immigration & Customs folk at Dover managed to detect more illegals coming in and smuggling than the 'real' teams. Hmm, so who sleeps on the job...?

Re JC, I admit he makes me mad (eg. his comment about Range Rovers having special storage for a hoof pick), however he has the courage to say what many of us think and dare not say.


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## martlin (2 December 2011)

KristmasKatt said:



			Crikey people seem to think that 67 is absolutely ancient. Do we really believe that 67 year olds aren't capable of doing a proper and decent job? 

I have no doubt that a 67 year old could keep control of a class of badly behaved teenagers. At the secondary school I went to it was the young teachers who lacked control, not the older ones. In fact we had a part time teacher who worked beyond retirement, and was over 67 (she looked about 105...). She had a 100% attendance record, being one of only a couple of staff members who made it in during snow (she walked 6 miles to and from school every day)and if she taught your class you didn't think of misbehaving. She was terrifying! 

It is incredibly patronising to suggest that someone can't do a reasonable days work at age 67. 

For example Churchill was 65 when he first became prime minister and by the end of his last term he was 80. And the general opinion is that he did a pretty good job of leading the country through some of the most difficult times we have ever faced. He was 70 by the end of WW2! 

Ranulph Fiennes climbed Everest aged 65 (and in the same year gave Mr Clarkson himself a good ticking off.. and he's the epitomy of a a naughty schoolboy!)

And 67 is also the age of the oldest person to compete at the olympics, in the dressage. 

But forget all that at 67 all you will be good for is knitting in a rocking chair and sucking werthers originals!
		
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I just wanted to say... I'm 33 and I LOVE werthers!

ETS: and on that note, I'm off to hide my self-employed fortune. Cheerio!


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## CorvusCorax (2 December 2011)

Gis a lend, Marty!!!


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## noblesteed (2 December 2011)

Ha ha I work in a state primary school in a reasonably deprived area and there is absolutely NO WAY I would physically be able to do my job at 67.
My colleagues and I regularly have to physically restrain unruly pupils, run after them when they decide to take themselves home, suffer physical and verbal abuse on a daily basis. This is aside from having to sit on tiny chairs, sit on the carpet, move furniture around, empty sand and water trays, crawl around on hands and knees to assist 3 year-olds fasten their little coats etc etc - LONG gone are the days when teachers used to sit at a chair behind a desk! In fact if OFSTED saw that you would be strung up!!!! It's all part of the job and I love it BUT for example I am pregnant and have a bad back - I have been signed off work as I am not deemed 'unfit' for purpose... So I dread to think how I will be at 67. I can only hope I am a headteacher by then and so able to spend some of my day behind a desk. And have a burly deputy head to do the physical restraining...

The same goes for the medical profession and the police and fire service - they have highly physically demanding jobs and would struggle to do them at 67. I couldn't imagine 67 year-old nurses being able to roll a patient single-handedly! As Mrs B said, they will all end up on the sick with bad backs so that idea won't work!!!

As for the public sector being expected to pay for the cuts- well yes but when I chose my career I thought very carefully about job security and pensions benefits at the end of it - and chose teaching. At the time it was a very poorly paid job but I believed it was a job for life.
However, it is not!! There are far more teachers than there are jobs these days and redundancies galore due to falling birth rates (unless you're 17 and on Jobseekers allowance)- 2 years ago I survived redundancy but a colleague got the chop - after 15 years of teaching she cannot find another teaching job. Nurses and Police officers are also facing redundancies and pay-cuts galore. 

The people who are responsible for our current economic disasters are NOT the ones paying for it now - we are - honest hard-working folk. If the private sector want to strike as well I would be in favour of them too! But they gave away their rights to strike years ago. The government is using a 'divide and conquer' strategy, telling lies galore and pulling the wool over the public's eyes, and probably Clarkson was paid a considerable amount of money to make those remarks to fuel this public-private sector war of words.

This country is a mess and the only way we will put things right is by standing up to the morons in charge!!!! The people who should be paying are the richest but are getting away scot-free while we who work hard for our wages and pensions are being squeezed again and again.


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## martlin (2 December 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Gis a lend, Marty!!!
		
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Ah, my dear, one gets wealthy by NOT spending  What's the interest you are paying? Need to do a risk assessment, too


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## Kat (2 December 2011)

martlin said:



			I just wanted to say... I'm 33 and I LOVE werthers!

ETS: and on that note, I'm off to hide my self-employed fortune. Cheerio!
		
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Spend some of your hidden self employed fortune on vodka so you can experience "THE BEST" way to enjoy werthers original. WERTHERS VODKA!


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## Miss L Toe (2 December 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			I'd love to have lots of money hidden away, hahahaha!
How much do you think self employed people actually earn?! Try a drop from £22k as staff to £11k as a freelance in one year!
		
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Nice one CC, some of my customers think I should charge public sector basic skilled wage levels per hour, ie £9.00 per hour , what they don't consider is that I also have to pay for a vehicle and tools and fuel and insurance and contingencies, sick pay,  and pension[joking], 13 public holidays [yes joking], four weeks "paid holidays", which conservatively works out at £5K per annum, I can only work [I mean actual work on site] 15-25 hours per week on average, and these are the only hours I can charge for.

I get a pension, which is not enough to live on, it is survival money, and am I the only one who wants to think that they will work from the age of 17 to 67 to end up buying discounted foods at the Tesco "Quick Sale" counter, and what happens if, like 25 % of the population in the former heavy industrial areas in Glasgow,  I end up puffing and wheezing, and using a walking stick at an early age.


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## Mince Pie (2 December 2011)

Horserider, thanks for the link. I especially love:



			Downing Street issued a tongue-in-cheek statement last night on the subject, saying. "Execution is not government policy and we have no plans to make it government policy."
		
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## Zuzan (2 December 2011)

I have complained about Clarksons's comments.. on the basis that it inspires hate politics as demonstrated by the T Party in the States with the resultant shooting of a congresswoman..  

I was on strike as I deeply resent paying "extra contributions" which in fact will go to paying off the banking crisis...  I personally wouldn't mind if I knew the extra contributions actually went into a pension fund rather than straight into the banking inspired deficit.   

I can quite see that in many cases (not all) it would be impossible to expect 60 + yo to be able to do the same physical jobs.   This really hasn't been thought thro at all.

I also fail to see how economically speaking it is better to increase the number of people that will drop out of a pension contribution scheme and end up costing the state even more when they come to relay on a State Pension?

Clarkson's comments are uneducated and causing the same polarisation of debate that the T Party have caused in the States...  this is not constructive and in a time of crisis doesn't lead to constructive action by the political system.

Public sector pensions were reformed 5 years ago and the costs have subsequently been decreasing anyway..  the current administrations attack on public sector pensions is purely an attempt to grab funds to pay off the deficit caused by irresponsible banking.

This was my first ever time on strike and I loath seeing the polarisation it is causing.   I think the time for adversarial politics is over and we should all be pulling together


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## noblesteed (2 December 2011)

Teee heee heee I am apparently a 'scrounger' and I am milking the system... As a teacher with 12 years experience in 'colourful' schools, including turning a failing school into a good one, senior manager , running 2 key stages and acting head in absence of the headteacher, who gets told 'we can't afford to pay you as a manager as our roles are falling, you're lucky you weren't one of the ones we made redundant' - I love scrounging, me!!! I think maybe I should be one of the people Clarkson wanted to shoot. That would save the taxpayer paying me while I am on the sick as well - and they wouldn't have to pay my maternity pay either!! Yes he should DEFINITELY shoot me!!!!!

And no I don't teach maths which involves numbers beyond 1000. My husband who is also a teacher deals with 'that sort of thing'. I have a horse, therefore I am unable to add up costs of things properly.

Incidentally it is coming out that JC was put up to making those remarks... no surprises there...


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## SusannaF (2 December 2011)

I couldn't care less about the anti-strike remarks (best to ignore him when he's saying that stuff - also, it was in a particular context). The unions shouldn't waste energy getting their knickers in a twist.


It's the stuff about people being killed by trains that was downright nasty.


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## TequilaMist (2 December 2011)

horserider said:



			Is Unison the new government ?
 Power seems to have gone to their heads, not content with trying to leave the sick and elderly without care, children without education, the grieving unable to bury their dead, they now want to deprive us of Top Gear.

I never thought I'd say this, but bring back Mrs Thatcher. Someone needs to have the balls to stop this madness.
		
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This made me lol!! The government is already doing this with its cuts! Where do you think they cut.I work in care sector trust me  they ARE leaving sick and elderly without care.
Social worker told me they were told if assessing someone could touch your toes then they were fine.Qualifying criteria for care is getting tighter and tighter.
There are some folk who don't really need care who abuse it but on the whole theres more who could do with help go without care.

And wonder if someone can tell me if the MP etc pensions are going to be affected as well.I honestly don't know the answer to this one so would be interested to know.
Plus I have a mate whose opted out of works pension scheme all her working days and tbh she will get pension credits etc on top of state pension to bring her in line whilst I have been paying since I was 18 and will prob not get any help as will have a pension which I have at least contributed to.

Oh and OH works for private sector and his pensions way better than mine and no he's not at top level he's a sparky and not on astronomical wages either


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## stencilface (2 December 2011)

Is it just public sector workers who are unable to work past 65 then?

How come I worked with an estate maintenance guy on a country estate who was half way into his 60s, had been working there for over 40 years.  I was 25, he could nail a post and rail fence up, chop wood, hang gates, fix fencing, drive tractors MILES better than I could - its all in the technique.

Many checkout workers are pension age.  Maybe if teaching is beyond you and you want more money, go work in tescos?

And I don't want to pick on you noblesteed, and I'm only using you as an example (I have friends at a similar level) but I find it ridiculous that at 33 you have been/are a senior manager - I'm 30 and am far off being at a senior level in my career, I think teachers get promoted far too quickly (my friend was a head of year after two years of teaching as a learn on the job teacher (can't remember what the scheme is called now)


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## Rowreach (2 December 2011)

Zuzan said:



			Clarkson's comments are uneducated and causing the same polarisation of debate that the T Party have caused in the States...  this is not constructive and in a time of crisis doesn't lead to constructive action by the political system.
		
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JC's comments didn't cause the polarisation - the strike achieved that.


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## Ibblebibble (2 December 2011)

i really can't believe that people get so wound up over anything that JC says  his sole purpose is to come out with fantastically ridiculous statements and he does it rather well.
As for all those bleating about small pensions and working until they're 67, get real and open your eyes, plenty of people are already suffering having to work past the current pensionable age because the private pensions they paid into are worth diddly squat, some of these people are doing physical work that most of us couldn't do at half their age
 My dad for example is 72 and still working as a plasterer to top up his pension, oh and because he still works he pays tax, and that takes his pension into account as earnings which means he's paying tax on money he's already been taxed on Fair ? no, is he complaining and striking like a spoilt kid? no he's getting on with life and making the best of what he's got, like millions of others in his position


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## brighteyes (2 December 2011)

He says what many of us think - and long may he continue to do so. If you don't like hat he says, don't listen to him.


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## Magicmillbrook (2 December 2011)

noblesteed said:



			See this is where it all goes wrong. What the media and the Government are saying about our pensions is lies and rubbish! People really need to get their facts right!!!!!

For example Jen_Cots - We in the public sector do NOT pay 3% of our salary into pensions. We ALREADY pay 6% - the government is planning to INCREASE that by 3.5 % making our monthly contribution nearly 10%. That raises my monthly contribution to my pension from £341 per month as it currently is, to around £420 a month. 

The money that I cirrently pay into the pensions fund goes directly to the people who are currently being paid a teacher's pension. The TAX PAYER does not pay it! I do!!! THe idea is when I retire the teachers who are paying into THEIR pension will actually be paying ME...

I don't regard £420 a month as a 'cheap' pension!!!!! Crikey I didn;t realise it was that much til I looked at it....

 How many of you Private sector workers pay over £400 a month into your pension???
		
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Well said

As for the comment someone made about secure jobs - ha, we have lost 20% of out team in the last two years and are still having to hold the service together.  We are currently holding our breath to see who goes next as we are about to be culled by another 15% (happy christmas), and that just for this financial year - will standards be allowed to drop - not bloody likely.

I get paid beween 10 -25% less than some one doing an equivalent job to mine in the private sector - 'why dont you go to the the private sector?' I hear you ask - because I believe that what I do makes a difference to the community I work and live in.  And the disparity in salaries is offset by a FAIR pension.

I too pay about 6% of my earnings into my pension.  My particular pension scheme is in the black and if contributions stopped today they could pay out for the next £20 years.  It was adjusted 3 years ago to bring it in to line with private sector pensions - and where this final salary nonsense comes from - I wish. 

If its cut much more people wont be able to afford to join/pay in and then the government will be in trouble - more folks without pension provisions and less money in the pot - sounds familiar!  You have eto rememeber that may public sector workers are part time and on minimum wage.

I think people forget the huge variety of workers who work for the public sector - everyone from brain surgeons to cleaners and lollypop ladies.  I certainly wouldnt want any Tom Dick or Harry from the dole cue peforming surgery on me or looking after my children or grandparents.

I guess that piggy bank sitting there is too atractive to the current government.

As far as JC goes, I dont give a fig about his comments, any one who takes them seriously should get a life.  I wish David Prentis would focus on the real enemy  Mr C.


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## fburton (2 December 2011)

Oh well, it's all academic now he's gone... RIP Jeremy Clarkson! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpL9a-5LFpI


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## Rowreach (2 December 2011)

Well the DT poll has now had 30,590 votes, of which nearly 76% of voters are backing JC - nearly restores my faith in people 

Even his explanation of his remarks made me lol


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## JFTDWS (2 December 2011)

Meh, imho JC's probably right.  But hey, I read the DT and vote Tory so I'm clearly just a ******.

Those whining about cuts - you are aware that government spending has increased under the coalition government, aren't you?


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## noblesteed (2 December 2011)

Tinselface the reason teachers can get promoted quickly (and as I said I am a middle manager in duties NOT salary) is that in the 1990s teaching was so badly paid that there was a massive shortage of teachers thanks to years of Tory rule. Everyone said I was MAD to go to Uni and get an education degree. But as I said I wanted a job for life and a good pension so was happy to be skint for a while! NOW the people got jobs in the private sector and used to brag to me about how much they were earning in the late 90s/early 00s are the ones whinging at me and calling me 'lucky' - er swings and roundabouts guys!!!!

Nowadays there are many young teachers but also a great deal who leave the profession - something like 40% within the first 5 years. This is mainly due to the awful working conditions in many inner-city schools coupled with the excessive workload. SO there is a shortage of experienced teachers like me, and we are being pushed towards headship. I decided to have a baby instead.
I know MANY headteachers in my LA that are under the age of 40 years, running outstanding schools and getting excellent results.

The reason the teaching unions are worried about the pension reform is that teaching will be less attractive, so there will be fewer good graduates wanting to become teachers, and therefore standards of education will fall. I don't know if they are correct in thinking this though... given the rubbish pay in the private sector (unless you're a banker). And the ridiculous cost of getting a degree in the first place... that will have more effect than pensions...

And I think UNISON are a bit babyish.


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## MerrySherryRider (2 December 2011)

The teachers on here seem to be a pretty unhealthy lot, too infirm to sit on a carpet at 67 or do colouring in with a group of 5 year olds.

 It might be a coincidence, but the three pregnant teachers at my grandson' s school are all on sick leave.

 Wonder how 2 daughters and  3 DIL's have managed to get through a total of 8 pregnancies without being off sick, despite 3 of the girls having awful morning sickness and being unable to keep anything down.


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## FairyLights (2 December 2011)

horserider said:



			The teachers on here seem to be a pretty unhealthy lot, too infirm to sit on a carpet at 67 or do colouring in with a group of 5 year olds.

 It might be a coincidence, but the three pregnant teachers at my grandson' s school are all on sick leave.

 Wonder how 2 daughters and  3 DIL's have managed to get through a total of 8 pregnancies without being off sick, despite 3 of the girls having awful morning sickness and being unable to keep anything down.
		
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Thats teachers for you!


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## stencilface (2 December 2011)

Noblesteed - you see i think all of my teacher friends (prob about 10) only 1 of them ever wanted to be a teacher - the rest ended up there as there were no other jobs for english graduates etc.  One friend has a biology and maths degree, MSc and a PhD in modelling - now she can't find a job so is training as a teacher.

So, I think many teachers now do not do it for a vocation, they do it because they got paid to do the training and couldn't find another job.  They will strike over anything just to get a day off, and whinge about how hard done by they are.

Was talking to a guy working at a quarry today, saying how the teachers now are the same as the miners.  Striking over the smallest thing - he told me one mine had gone on strike for a week because someone wasn't given a pair of wellies at the right time (the story is longer than that - but thats the gist of it!)

Essentially, I don't think public sectors workers get any respect now for what they're trying to acheive - people have bigger problems, like being unemployed, and not being able to afford heating and food.


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## BeesKnees (2 December 2011)

I think public sector workers do vital and valuable work, and they should be paid appropriately. No problem with that. In fact I worked in the PS for 4 years where I was paid well above the national average, had a guaranteed annual pay rise and increment rise, 8 weeks paid holiday, a great pension and could be off sick for 6 months with full pay!!

I now work in the private sector for half the pay, no benefits package, and a pay freeze for the last 3 years! 

So Ive experienced both sides. I love my current job and it was my choice to leave the gilded cage so I don't moan about it. But I do think many public sector workers need a bit of a reality check as to how harsh it is outside.


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## Slinkyunicorn (2 December 2011)

Magicmillbrook said:



			As for the comment someone made about secure jobs - ha, we have lost 20% of out team in the last two years and are still having to hold the service together.  We are currently holding our breath to see who goes next as we are about to be culled by another 15% (happy christmas), and that just for this financial year - will standards be allowed to drop - not bloody likely.

I have worked in the private sector my entire life and have been made redundant 4 times now 1 company went from over 200 employess to 23 in 18months, another one went from 600 to 26 in one go - guess what it wasn't what anyone employed there had signed up for but if the money isn't there the choice is between going bust or downsizing. Guess what? redundancies in the private sectore nearly always happen at the year end - it makes the balance sheets look better for the next financial year. 

I think people forget the huge variety of workers who work for the public sector - everyone from brain surgeons to cleaners and lollypop ladies.  I certainly wouldnt want any Tom Dick or Harry from the dole cue peforming surgery on me or looking after my children or grandparents.

.
		
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I really don't think you should include doctors of any sort in this arguement - whilst they are employed in the public sector ie the NHS nearly all hospital Consultants will have a lucrative private practice and GP's have a nice little contract due the last Labour Government. Poor doctors only exist where they have very expensive tastes/hobbies or ex wives


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## perfect11s (2 December 2011)

noblesteed said:



			The reason the teaching unions are worried about the pension reform is that teaching will be less attractive, so there will be fewer good graduates wanting to become teachers, and therefore standards of education will fall. I don't know if they are correct in thinking this though... given the rubbish pay in the private sector (unless you're a banker). And the ridiculous cost of getting a degree in the first place... that will have more effect than pensions...

.
		
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 Sorry, that's another thing !!!!what is wrong with someone paying back some of the costs of further education??? labour  encouraged all sorts of  semi literate mongs to go to uni and do potty degree's  so the end result?? loads of semi educated idiots with an overgrown sense of intitlement devaluing real achivement and lowering the bar, sorry  there
is something realy wrong with our education system,  ask an employer about the standard of a large propotion  of the applicants!!! no wonder the county is full of eastern europeans..


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## Wolfie (2 December 2011)

Jerroboam said:



			Once again Clarkson might have been joking regarding taxing horses etc, given that his little girls are often seen hacking, on the roads, outside Chipping Norton! He's amazing! For PM!
		
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Well the current one is a complete c*^% so why not add another to the roster?


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## noblesteed (2 December 2011)

Ha Ha No the reason the doctor has signed me off sick is because I CAN'T sit on the carpet!!! Due to possible onset of SPD I have been told to rest... How ridiculous is that? Neither can I stand at my board and teach or circulate the classroom, or deal with the 3 year old that spits, kicks and tries to scratch me! Though if she doesn't attack me she attacks the other kids, so I can't sit back and do nothing - far better have a supply teacher in who can deal with kids like this without risking harming my baby!!!! I would like to be able to push pens and tap computer keys at a desk like private sector office workers do, but I actually have to WORK for a living... Mind you I would be bored out of my skull in an office and so dull and deadened I would end up believing what I read in the Daily Mail...
I actually have a mixed age class so I do teach more than just colouring in, I have a bunch of Y2s to get ready for their Statutory testing in May, and some Y1s to prepare for their statutory phonics testing but that's another bright idea by our lovely government who like to routinely torture small children... Which is why I have spent all day on the computer between arguing on here and doing planning for my maternity cover teacher...

I think it wrong to say teachers strike at the drop of hat... I have only struck once in my 12 year career which was in June this year, over the same pensions malarkey. I can only really remember in my life-time that some firemen went on strike once... People on here are probably so old and decrepit they remember the 1970/80s clearly but I don't other than my dad spent a lot time marching and shouting angrily about someone called Maggie??????


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## ChesnutsRoasting (2 December 2011)

I really don't get this outpouring of adoration for Jeremy Clarkson. I know his initials are JC, anyone would think his comments have kick started the second coming.


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## stencilface (2 December 2011)

noblesteed said:



			I would like to be able to push pens and tap computer keys at a desk like private sector office workers do, but I actually have to WORK for a living... Mind you I would be bored out of my skull in an office and so dull and deadened I would end up believing what I read in the Daily Mail...
		
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Lol - I dug out a badger sett by hand today - hardly sitting at a desk 

(under licence btw, I'm not baiting  )

And my 5mths pregnant colleague was doing dusk and dawn bat surveys this summer - not for a fainthearted, and certainly practise for sleepless nights.....


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## Slinkyunicorn (2 December 2011)

noblesteed said:



			I would like to be able to push pens and tap computer keys at a desk like private sector office workers do, but I actually have to WORK for a living...
		
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Now you see comments like that aren't going to endear you to anyone 

That is just a crass and ignorant thing to say


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## FairyLights (2 December 2011)

Just a little tale about my son for whining whingeing striking PS workers.
 My 20 yr old son is a PS worker. 
He is a soldier. 
He is not complaining about his increased pension contributions nor the 1% only pay rise. 
He is most definitely not striking! 
He is shortly to be deployed abroad.
He is willing to lay down his life for this country,[ even if he cannot afford to buy a home here] and that includes the whingeing moaning strikers,who have it so good they dont know they are born. 
Something to think about.


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## Alec Swan (2 December 2011)

blazingsaddles said:



			I really don't get this outpouring of adoration for Jeremy Clarkson. I know his initials are JC, anyone would think his comments have kick started the second coming.
		
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I suspect that the rest of the world takes the man far more seriously,  than he takes himself.  His un-pc tirades,  allow those who need to have a rant,  the excuse,  or the catalyst,  to let rip.

As a matter of interest,  has anyone viewed any of his serious work?  I have and it was remarkable,  I thought.  There's a balance to most people.

A.


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## Magicmillbrook (2 December 2011)

Horsesforever1 said:



			Just a little tale about my son for whining whingeing striking PS workers.
 My 20 yr old son is a PS worker. 
He is a soldier. 
He is not complaining about his increased pension contributions nor the 1% only pay rise. 
He is most definitely not striking! 
He is shortly to be deployed abroad.
He is willing to lay down his life for this country,[ even if he cannot afford to buy a home here] and that includes the whingeing moaning strikers,who have it so good they dont know they are born. 
Something to think about.
		
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We will winge and moan on his behalf then.  The strikes are on behalf of ALL public sector workers ALL of whom should be valued for the jobs they do, in particular soldiers who risk life and limb.  I bet your son is not sitting at an office - or gilded cage pen pushing and computer tapping.  This is what makes me sick - that every one lumps - public sector workers into one category.


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## rosie fronfelen (2 December 2011)

good forJC


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## Anglebracket (2 December 2011)

perfect11s said:



			Sorry, that's another thing !!!!what is wrong with someone paying back some of the costs of further education??? labour  encouraged all sorts of  semi literate mongs to go to uni and do potty degree's  so the end result?? loads of semi educated idiots with an overgrown sense of intitlement devaluing real achivement and lowering the bar, sorry  there
is something realy wrong with our education system,  ask an employer about the standard of a large propotion  of the applicants!!! no wonder the county is full of eastern europeans..
		
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Referring to people as semi-literate mongs is just wrong. Don't know what else to say.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (2 December 2011)

Anglebracket said:



			Referring to people as semi-literate mongs is just wrong. Don't know what else to say.
		
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I doubt Perfect11s is aware of what 'mongs' is short for and if she/he does, it doesn't matter, in the great JC tradition, it's just a joke!!! Hurrah


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## SusannaF (2 December 2011)

perfect11s said:



			Sorry, that's another thing !!!!what is wrong with someone paying back some of the costs of further education??? labour  encouraged all sorts of  semi literate mongs to go to uni and do potty degree's  so the end result?? loads of semi educated idiots with an overgrown sense of intitlement devaluing real achivement and lowering the bar, sorry  there
is something realy wrong with our education system,  ask an employer about the standard of a large propotion  of the applicants!!! no wonder the county is full of eastern europeans..
		
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Your spelling mistakes make this kind of hilarious BUT I should point out that it was the Tories under John Major who transformed the old polys into universities.


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## Miss L Toe (2 December 2011)

Horsesforever1 said:



			Just a little tale about my son for whining whingeing striking PS workers.
 My 20 yr old son is a PS worker. 
He is a soldier. 
He is not complaining about his increased pension contributions nor the 1% only pay rise. 
He is most definitely not striking! 
He is shortly to be deployed abroad.
He is willing to lay down his life for this country,[ even if he cannot afford to buy a home here] and that includes the whingeing moaning strikers,who have it so good they dont know they are born. 
Something to think about.
		
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Sorry, but soldiers are not in the PS in the general sense, they sign up to "lay down their lives for queen and country " and sign away the right to strike.


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## noblesteed (2 December 2011)

Teeee heee what fun. I'm off to watch the One Show to see if anyone else says something mildly offensive!!!


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## DragonSlayer (2 December 2011)

What's with all the teacher-bashing all the time?

I'm a teacher.

NOT in a union.
DID NOT strike but could not physically get IN the buiding as it was locked. Had it been open, I would have attended work and got lots of paperwork done, reports are due, and they take time, I can tell you...
I do NOT contribute to the pension.
Through working all the hours god sends and NOT taking time off, I once developed pnemonia which buggered up my lungs for a couple of years after....
I don't take time off willy-nilly....

....and I really think some people should do my job for a month. Long holidays?? Hahahaha! I'm planning work most of it! This xmas holiday will see me creating new schemes of work, they don't whistle themselves out the sky...


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## Equibrit (2 December 2011)

Horses seem to like Clarkson; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KG7VX4wr5s


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## BeesKnees (2 December 2011)

Magicmillbrook said:



			.  I bet your son is not sitting at an office - or gilded cage pen pushing and computer tapping.  This is what makes me sick - that every one lumps - public sector workers into one category.
		
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Like you just did about private sector workers?  I'm sure the people working in factories or private care work etc etc wouldn't care for your summation either!

And I think you are misusing the term 'gilded cage' which refers to a place that is a trap - difficult to leave because it comes with such golden benefits. I don't see how that refers to people 'pen pushing' in offices especially when admin work is paid around 12k!  It does however relate to the public sector where the work can be demanding and the environment stressful, but people don't leave because of the pay and benefits they get ( I know I worked in it for a while).


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## Holly Hocks (2 December 2011)

I am a Local Government Officer working in Benefit Fraud.  For all those who are whingeing about the public paying the wages of the public sector, I can turn this around for you. 

I save my Council hundreds of thousands of pounds per year in benefit fraud - that is no exaggeration.  It is way way way more than my measly salary. So I'm actually saving YOU money as it's yours (and my) taxes that pay welfare benefits.

Anyway, I am a member of Unison but I did NOT strike yesterday.  Why? Because I couldn't afford to lose a day's pay and to be honest I didn't see what a strike was going to achieve - one day of people's bins not being collected isn't going to bother them much, is it? All it does it lose people's understanding and sympathy.

I really lost interest in Unison when they complained about Jeremy Clarkson's comments.  It is called having a sense of humour and Unison seemed to have lost theirs totally yesterday.  As a result I will be leaving the Union as I don't agree with the way they are trying to achieve a result. 

If you don't like watching JC - turn the TV over so you don't have to listen to him - there is always a good chance he is going to say something controversial.

On another note, a part of the office I work in offers overtime at weekends - there are always the same money grabbers wanting to do it because they "need the money".  Strange how they could afford to lose a days pay for the strike yesterday though!  If I were the employer I would ban this lot from doing any more overtime!


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## perfect11s (2 December 2011)

blazingsaddles said:



			I doubt Perfect11s is aware of what 'mongs' is short for and if she/he does, it doesn't matter, in the great JC tradition, it's just a joke!!! Hurrah

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 I dont mean downs syndrome and I would never mock or bully anyone with a genuine disabillty or mental illness, Mong's as in practicing  being stupid!!!  a sociailst, or someone without a sense of humor like a hand wringing pc lefty , all fair game for a bit of teasing ....


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## Merry Crisis (2 December 2011)

Holly Hocks said:



			I am a Local Government Officer working in Benefit Fraud.  For all those who are whingeing about the public paying the wages of the public sector, I can turn this around for you. 

I save my Council hundreds of thousands of pounds per year in benefit fraud - that is no exaggeration.  It is way way way more than my measly salary. So I'm actually saving YOU money as it's yours (and my) taxes that pay welfare benefits.

Anyway, I am a member of Unison but I did NOT strike yesterday.  Why? Because I couldn't afford to lose a day's pay and to be honest I didn't see what a strike was going to achieve - one day of people's bins not being collected isn't going to bother them much, is it? All it does it lose people's understanding and sympathy.

I really lost interest in Unison when they complained about Jeremy Clarkson's comments.  It is called having a sense of humour and Unison seemed to have lost theirs totally yesterday.  As a result I will be leaving the Union as I don't agree with the way they are trying to achieve a result. 

If you don't like watching JC - turn the TV over so you don't have to listen to him - there is always a good chance he is going to say something controversial.

On another note, a part of the office I work in offers overtime at weekends - there are always the same money grabbers wanting to do it because they "need the money".  Strange how they could afford to lose a days pay for the strike yesterday though!  If I were the employer I would ban this lot from doing any more overtime!
		
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Respect!!! As usual a well constructed post.


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## Denzalwood (2 December 2011)

JC is awesome, down with a Country that won't allow you to say what you feel especially if it's just in the name of humor. Freedom of speech anyone?


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## Magicmillbrook (2 December 2011)

BeesKnees said:



			Like you just did about private sector workers?  I'm sure the people working in factories or private care work etc etc wouldn't care for your summation either!

And I think you are misusing the term 'gilded cage' which refers to a place that is a trap - difficult to leave because it comes with such golden benefits. I don't see how that refers to people 'pen pushing' in offices especially when admin work is paid around 12k!  It does however relate to the public sector where the work can be demanding and the environment stressful, but people don't leave because of the pay and benefits they get ( I know I worked in it for a while).
		
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Mmm dont recall judging private sector workers at all, I appreciate that everyone is having a hard time.  I am merely coming back at the idots who say that anyone on the dole queue could do the work of a public sector worker - what a silly thing to say, there are a myriad of different jobs that require specialist skills and qualifications.

Again the gilded cage reference was how another poster described their experience of Public sector work - well he/she and you would find it a very different place to work now.

No increments or pay rises at my place of work for 4 years now and none likely in the future - just because goverment are saying we may get a pay rise of up to 1% in 2 years time, doesnt mean our employers will award it.  Our overtime budgets are gone but we still do work out of hours - we can claim the hours as time off in lieu, however myself and most of my colleagues have too may hours clocked up and end up loosing hours each month, so are in effect working for free.

I just cant believe that anyone working in the private or public sector paying into a pension scheme is going to be happy to pay up to 50% more into their pension scheme and be happy with receiving 25% less.  If that makes me a whingeing money grabbing person then so be it.

.


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## nannubu (3 December 2011)

Absolutely fed up with misinformed and ignorant teacher bashing also - the right to strike is one not to used lightly but should be used to make a point. Seems alot of people believe that top down policy change should be greeted with a chorus of the public sector dropping their trousers and letting the policy makers get on with it. I find it extremely distasteful that forum members have taken the time to work out another's salary and then made the vacuous argument that if you are on a decent wage, then disagreeing with your conditions is 'whinging'. Grow up - it's called not being a total mug. It's ludicrous that teachers striking are met with more bile and vitriol than those immoral, bonus humping, bailed out bankers...


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## SusannaF (3 December 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/02/jeremy-clarkson-rebel-cause-dvds


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## Miss L Toe (3 December 2011)

Holly Hocks said:



			I am a Local Government Officer working in Benefit Fraud.  For all those who are whingeing about the public paying the wages of the public sector, I can turn this around for you. 

I save my Council hundreds of thousands of pounds per year in benefit fraud - that is no exaggeration.  It is way way way more than my measly salary. So I'm actually saving YOU money as it's yours (and my) taxes that pay welfare benefits.
		
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Sorry, but this is  a bit like the coffee machine service guy who claimed to have helped the space race because his coffee machine was in NASA, lol
I am not pro or anti Unsion, but in the PS, it is impossible for individual non members to negotiate their wages with their employers,  people who don't contribute to the union [or donate fees to charity] are just as willing to accept the negotiated benefits, if you don't agree with the union I suggest you become an activist, change will only occur from the inside.
I  don't agree with paying union officials [ so called socialists] or failed bankers [self seeking incompetent capitalists] ridiculous amounts of cash.
They are paid to do a job and should accept the salary they took when they were put in post, if they make a mess of it  they should be sacked, not rewarded.


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## Miss L Toe (3 December 2011)

I don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but in my opinion MPs income should immediately be  linked to senior civil service rates, INCLUDING the new pensions, it seem to me that MPs  are not contributing to their [self-voted] pensions [or pay scales] but expect their staff to do so.

This would immediately reduce the ongoing UK debt burden considerably,  and of course we should  back date it, so all those ex MPs have to go out and work for their money, just like the rest of us. I believe each one costs us £250K per anum, and that is while in post, I don't believe many of these individuals generate that sort of business for their constituency.


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## Miss L Toe (3 December 2011)

DragonSleigh-Bells said:



			What's with all the teacher-bashing all the time?

I'm a teacher.

NOT in a union.
DID NOT strike but could not physically get IN the buiding as it was locked. Had it been open, I would have attended work and got lots of paperwork done, reports are due, and they take time, I can tell you...
I do NOT contribute to the pension.
Through working all the hours god sends and NOT taking time off, I once developed pnemonia which buggered up my lungs for a couple of years after....
I don't take time off willy-nilly....

....and I really think some people should do my job for a month. Long holidays?? Hahahaha! I'm planning work most of it! This xmas holiday will see me creating new schemes of work, they don't whistle themselves out the sky...
		
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Some do, some don't, I used to deal with teachers, and could never get hold of one after 3.40, also the local school-teachers car park is empty by 4.00 pm most days. There is a good career structure and support for those who are sick.
I worked in the Civil service for several years, and we worked 8.30 to 5.00 pm, no exceptions. Four weeks holiday plus 12 days Public Holidays were all paid holidays, and we had a career structure which ensured the cream rose to the top.
The terms and conditions were negotiated for us nationally by the Civil Service National Whitley Council. there was no opting out of the pension scheme in those days. So there should be no retired civil servants claiming benefits.

PS Most teachers could have worked from home if they felt the need to protest in silence. You had a full day to work on your Schemes of Work, and have Christmas Day off


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## DragonSlayer (3 December 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			PS Most teachers could have worked from home if they felt the need to protest in silence. You had a full day to work on your Schemes of Work, and have Christmas Day off
		
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Well, that's mighty generous of you, I have to say....

My question is the teacher-bashing.

What about the OTHER public workers? Why aren't people having a whine about them?

...or is it just easier to whinge about the teachers because they 'appear' to have it easy?


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## Miss L Toe (3 December 2011)

DragonSleigh-Bells said:



			Well, that's mighty generous of you, I have to say....

My question is the teacher-bashing.

What about the OTHER public workers? Why aren't people having a whine about them?

...or is it just easier to whinge about the teachers because they 'appear' to have it easy?
		
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I  think it is because teachers appear to work thirty weeks a year to be honest, and they are high profile, working in the community has its drawbacks.


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## DragonSlayer (3 December 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			I  think it is because teachers appear to work thirty weeks a year to be honest, and they are high profile, working in the community has its drawbacks.
		
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Yes, I think you are right on that one!


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## AengusOg (3 December 2011)

Denzalwood said:



			Freedom of speech anyone?
		
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There can be no true freedom of speech.

If I stood on a box, in the middle of a city square, and spouted off on subjects such as cruel horsemanship, the Westminster government's attitude to my country's right to choose independence, lax immigration laws, or what should be done to people who starve horses to death, for example, and incited others to join me, it wouldn't be long before I was branded a nutcase/racist/terrorist/weirdo, and moved on or arrested.

It may be different if I were being paid by the BBC, but I'm not so I keep my mouth shut most of the time.


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## Wundahorse (3 December 2011)

Sadly Jeremy Clarkson is rude,arrogant and very ill informed.As a Nurse of many years experience and a lot of dedication and hard work, I cannot disagree more about public sector pensions.They are not gold plated for front line staff,and only more senior managers tend to get the better deals.Also When Jeremy Clarkson refers to himself as hard working, I can only add that he plays with cars and his pals for a living.Wonder how he would cope working in a hospital,tending to the sick,and dealing with the daily challenges on the wards. Bet he's run a mile.Shame on him for being so pig ignorant.


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## Mrs B (3 December 2011)

Wundahorse said:



			Sadly Jeremy Clarkson is rude,arrogant and very ill informed.As a Nurse of many years experience and a lot of dedication and hard work, I cannot disagree more about public sector pensions.They are not gold plated for front line staff,and only more senior managers tend to get the better deals.Also When Jeremy Clarkson refers to himself as hard working, I can only add that he plays with cars and his pals for a living.Wonder how he would cope working in a hospital,tending to the sick,and dealing with the daily challenges on the wards. Bet he's run a mile.Shame on him for being so pig ignorant.
		
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You appear to be another public sector worker who thinks that _your_ wages, hours, retirement age and pension should remain as it is.

And I say again - most people in this country have faced and are still facing HUGE cutbacks to income, lifestyle, holidays, pensions etc whether they're private OR public sector. As Cave Canem said earlier: her income has halved in a year to £11,000. Why should you be any different?


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## Wundahorse (3 December 2011)

It is not about being different,and i wonder why people are comparing,i am simply making a point about the lack of real awareness regarding pensions.I choose to train as a Nurse,electing to avoid a career in politics etc.Big mistake,if i was an MP i could look forward to a huge pot of money from the pension pot.We all have different careers,wages etc,most of it by choice,and i do understand some people have low earnings.Some years ago all in the private sector was rosy,but with the recession,the media have turned against the public sector,which is unfair,and the stories they perpetuate are ill informed and erroneous,and judging by this forum, divisive.


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## minkymoo (3 December 2011)

Quote from a Unison rep: "Whilst he is driving round in fast cars for a living, public sector workers are busy holding our society together - they save others' lives on a daily basis, they care for the sick, the vulnerable, the elderly."

Umm, not when they are on strike they don't.

I object to being referred to as a 'pencil pusher' and 'in a gilded cage' just because I work in the private sector. I work damn hard thank you and at the end of the day, we all make our career choices. If you don't like it, get a different job!


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## noblesteed (3 December 2011)

And just to prove who gets the prize for being the biggest IDIOT of 2011, JC has just reiterated what he said about train suicides today, in The Sun of all places! In fact he has gone into further detail about what should happen to the bodies of said poor sick souls. Utterly disgusting. Talk about going too far... and yes it turns out he WAS told to make those remarks about PS workers. 

Point proven. I rest my case!

btw Wundahorse I wouldn't take any notice of what Mrs B says. I have a suspicion that she is one of the Glorious Retired herself, who probably reads the Daily Mail, judging by her earlier comments. You know the ones who got to retire on their Massive pensions that we now are paying for? My Dad is one of them too. They all think teachers are lazy and the NHS are rubbish. Views around 25 years out of date? Don't worry, at some point she'll be in need of your fabulous NHS care and then she can tell you that you deserve a pay cut, ideally while you are standing over her with a needle...


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## Alec Swan (3 December 2011)

noblesteed said:



			.......btw Wundahorse I wouldn't take any notice of what Mrs B says. I have a suspicion that she is one of the Glorious Retired herself, who probably reads the Daily Mail, .......
		
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I rarely take the side of others,  on here,  and whilst I can't comment on Mrs. B's reading choice,  I can assure you that you are,  otherwise,  *very* wrong.  I'd also advise you that such ill thought out assumptions do you,  and your argument,  no favours.  Though I doubt that this will bother you,  much!! 

Alec.


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## Mrs B (3 December 2011)

noblesteed said:



			btw Wundahorse I wouldn't take any notice of what Mrs B says. I have a suspicion that she is one of the Glorious Retired herself, who probably reads the Daily Mail, judging by her earlier comments. You know the ones who got to retire on their Massive pensions that we now are paying for? My Dad is one of them too. They all think teachers are lazy and the NHS are rubbish. Views around 25 years out of date? Don't worry, at some point she'll be in need of your fabulous NHS care and then she can tell you that you deserve a pay cut, ideally while you are standing over her with a needle...
		
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 Love it! You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried! 
And really, if that's the best response you can come up with to my perfectly valid question about why any one group of people's jobs/pensions/lifestyle etc should be protected over everyone else's then it's a pretty poor effort, especially for a teacher!


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## Miss L Toe (3 December 2011)

Mrs B said:



			You appear to be another public sector worker who thinks that _your_ wages, hours, retirement age and pension should remain as it is.

And I say again - most people in this country have faced and are still facing HUGE cutbacks to income, lifestyle, holidays, pensions etc whether they're private OR public sector. As Cave Canem said earlier: her income has halved in a year to £11,000. Why should you be any different?
		
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Cave Canem changed jobs,and found that regular work on a salary pays better than part time work as a locum
C,,C,, can still apply for all those jobs teachers used to keep telling us are available in the private sector at enhanced rates [never ever found these jobs myself]
Personally I don't think you would be too pleased if you left one job to go in to another, and a week later were told that you would only be getting half your wages following a decree by Jeremy Clarkson, the Prime Minister.


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## perfect11s (3 December 2011)

Christ's sake!!!!  he is a presenter on a childish motoring program  he writes a collum in a paper or two and he is well known for winding up the dull , po faced  , and these cretins that believe the world is going to melt if we dont tax everyone in the into poverty amongst others!!! get over it he is a jester .
and as for you mupets in the public sector instead of kicking off  and telling everyone what a fantastic job you do for little money  think about the recent failings in the NHS like stafford hospital, MRSA, and shocking lack of care for the elderly that has been reported in the papers and even on the lefty bbc, police arent exactly stellar either , Teachers  judging from the sullen chav scum with little or no work ethic that seem to roam the streets need to up their game too ... so lose the sense of intitlement  and get on with the jobs be the best...and stop digging yourself's deeper  with your arrogant comments , your unions puppet goverment is out of office and the present lot are making an attempt to ballance the books ..so get over it...


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## scullysdad (4 December 2011)

Ah - but the point everyone seems to ignore about public service pensions is that they were taken into account in the overall salary package over the years - so people have had lower pay and lower pay rises over their career than people in the private sector - and now oh dear, what a shame we cant afford to give you what we promised - well flipping well blame the private sector that got us into this mess!


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## criptic (4 December 2011)

blazingsaddles said:



			After watching his embarassing performance on The One Show last night - just antagonistic nonsense he spouted - I would only vote for him to have his mouth taped shut.

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2 votes for him to have his mouth shut!


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## perfect11s (4 December 2011)

scullysdad said:



			Ah - but the point everyone seems to ignore about public service pensions is that they were taken into account in the overall salary package over the years - so people have had lower pay and lower pay rises over their career than people in the private sector - and now oh dear, what a shame we cant afford to give you what we promised - well flipping well blame the private sector that got us into this mess!
		
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 No blame Gordon brown, ed balls ,   for spending  more than the economy could stand, selling gold reserves, taxing private pensions into failure, allowing the banks to do just as they please then bailing them out mainly because they were Scotish  he is and the labour party would never get elected again without the Jocks voting for them.. oh and the public sector are still far better off  than the average joe in the productive sector,Hmm just curious is every person in the public sector hard of thinking??? !!!! and has'nt a clue about basic economics and  where   money comes from?????


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## FairyLights (4 December 2011)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...sector-pensions-reform-may-not-be-enough.html


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## cptrayes (4 December 2011)

scullysdad said:



			Ah - but the point everyone seems to ignore about public service pensions is that they were taken into account in the overall salary package over the years - so people have had lower pay and lower pay rises over their career than people in the private sector - and now oh dear, what a shame we cant afford to give you what we promised - well flipping well blame the private sector that got us into this mess!
		
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The pension mess is because we are living longer.

When pensions were introduced a man was not expected to draw a pension for more than five years. Now he is expected to live more than three times that and it costs more than three times as much. Private sector schemes realised this was not a situation which could be continued LONG before the crash, the Public Sector has just been slow to catch up because it's such a vote loser for Labour that they would not address it. 

Your overall salaries are now at least as high as in the private sector for the same job. Far higher in areas of deprivation in the north of the country. Since the oldest ones of you are still on a final salary deal, not an average salary, you are WAY ahead of where you could possibly have expected to be when you went into the scheme.


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## Miss L Toe (4 December 2011)

Tinselface said:



			Was talking to a guy working at a quarry today, saying how the teachers now are the same as the miners.  Striking over the smallest thing - he told me one mine had gone on strike for a week because someone wasn't given a pair of wellies at the right time (the story is longer than that - but thats the gist of it!)
		
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Yep ,   and now there is no UK mining industry as such,  Unions in the 1970 s were prone to strike at the drop of a spanner, but that is history. Maggie Thatcher stopped them, now she is over 67 and no one has asked her to work for a very long time [she lost the plot and had to go]
Miners were RED, teachers are pretty moderate, there is no comparison


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## Miss L Toe (4 December 2011)

duplicate


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## animal (4 December 2011)

I think some people seem to have forgotten public sector workers are taxpayers too, the point "we are" paying for your pensions is really ignorant.

Pensions, for most normal (eg not head teachers, directors, managment) workers is one of the only "perks" of the jobs, and now they are being asked to work longer and contibute more for less.
A normal teacher, after 20years working can only expect to be paid roughly £7,000 more than the min. wage, nothing in the public sector is gold plated apart from a few lucky creeps who push their way up the promotion scale.

To be blunt, and this may be veering away from the point, at 67 i'd rather be sitting in an office doing paperwork, than teaching roudy kids, running around picking up sick, etc.

As always the baby boomers are getting a much better deal again. 50 year old has to work 6 years more than a 51 year old, i also don't find that fair.

Yes, i'm probabally going to be slated and that, but that's how i see it from a 15 year old's point.


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## stencilface (4 December 2011)

animal said:



			I think some people seem to have forgotten public sector workers are taxpayers too, the point "we are" paying for your pensions is really ignorant.
		
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Yes, but imho its a null point that public servants pay tax as their tax has already been someone elses tax int he first place! They may as well not and get paid less (so take home pay stays the same) the cost of the paperwork to sort tax out for all the public sectors workers must be huge - so why not cut out the middle man?


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## scullysdad (4 December 2011)

The pension mess is because we are living longer.

When pensions were introduced a man was not expected to draw a pension for more than five years. Now he is expected to live more than three times that and it costs more than three times as much. Private sector schemes realised this was not a situation which could be continued LONG before the crash, the Public Sector has just been slow to catch up because it's such a vote loser for Labour that they would not address it.

Your overall salaries are now at least as high as in the private sector for the same job. Far higher in areas of deprivation in the north of the country. Since the oldest ones of you are still on a final salary deal, not an average salary, you are WAY ahead of where you could possibly have expected to be when you went into the scheme.
		
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Average length of public sector pensions was only 2 years in the 70s!

Way ahead? Really? In terms of £ received, maybe - but what about all the salary received in the past when private sector jobs were getting 5+% rises and the public sector "enjoyed" 1 3/4% ? 

Over the long term public sector workers paid in a lot of money in terms of depressed pay to take account of the great benefit of the gilt pension!  And now they want to say - oh that doesn't count, we can't afford it!

Say you pay in to a Christmas club £10 a month for 10 months and the club turns round in December and says - oh sorry we have spent your money on something else - here's £50 - how would you feel?







			Yes, but imho its a null point that public servants pay tax as their tax has already been someone elses tax int he first place! They may as well not and get paid less (so take home pay stays the same) the cost of the paperwork to sort tax out for all the public sectors workers must be huge - so why not cut out the middle man?



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That is true of most money - has been tax at some time! 

Oh - and income tax was introduced as a temporary measure!


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## BeesKnees (4 December 2011)

I quote from today's Telegraph on the monthly Office of National Statistics figures ( which is an independent organisation - before anyone argues this is just a Torygraph spin):

"*Workers in the public sector are now being paid more than £2,000 extra a year compared with employees in the private sector*, after public sector pay continued to race ahead of inflation.

The average public sector worker was paid £23,660 a year, compared with private sector workers who were paid £21,528 a year, in the three months to the end of November.
This is the first time that the gap, which has slowly widened under the Labour Government, has hit more than £2,000 and came *as figures showed that the discrepancy between pay increases in the public and private sector had never been so wide.*
*The data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) prompted experts to warn that so far the private sector had borne the brunt of the recession *and that the Government needed to take action sooner rather than later to tackle the growing public sector wage bill.

*Nearly all of the increase came from the public sector, with nurses, teachers, civil servants and other public workers enjoying an average annual pay rise of 3.8 per cent in the three months to the end of November. Meanwhile private sector employees saw their salaries rise by just 0.2 per cent,* as thousands of firms froze their workers' pay as part of a desperate bid to cut costs in the recession."

The public sector 'deal' (that you took a lower paid job in exchange for benefits and a  good pension) has not been true for some time and is no longer a valid argument.


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## suestowford (4 December 2011)

Tinselface said:



			Yes, but imho its a null point that public servants pay tax as their tax has already been someone elses tax int he first place! They may as well not and get paid less (so take home pay stays the same) the cost of the paperwork to sort tax out for all the public sectors workers must be huge - so why not cut out the middle man?



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This could work if not for the large numbers who have more than one job. I do, and lots of my colleagues at school have at least one other job, not in the public sector. I can just imagine the mess the tax office would get into, sorting that lot out.


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## cptrayes (4 December 2011)

scullysdad said:



			Say you pay in to a Christmas club £10 a month for 10 months and the club turns round in December and says - oh sorry we have spent your money on something else - here's £50 - how would you feel?
		
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I would feel the same way as I did when Gordon Brown removed £5 billion a year from pension funds, plus the compound growth on the previous years' £5 billions (ie the loss  gets BIGGER every year) reducing my personal pension pot by  a signficant amount. That was done after 20 years of already paying in without a penny from an employer or the government and at an age when I had no time left to make good the shortfall.

That was also the nail in the coffin for most defined benefit private sector pension schemes which are now rare when they were common.

You all think you are alone and being picked on, don't you? The rest of us have ALREADY BEEN THROUGH IT!!!


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## Wolfie (4 December 2011)

Posted this on another thread and decided to throw it in here as well. Might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb 

I literally don't think it matters what anyone says, the views are too entrenched. The Private sector very obviously think that the public sector are bumbling, incompetent dolts that are latched onto a lucrative nipple and living a life of luxury with the promise of more reward in retirement. The public sector are exasperated and frustrated because they feel they have been robbed. The two sides will never see eye to eye, unless of course all public sector workers are reduced to minimum wage or something.

From my perspective things appear thus: I am a lecturer in FE. I work pretty hard, pay loads of tax and am expecting to work until I am about 70 before I can afford to retire. However, I am also a temporary member of staff, since cuts have placed an embargo on appointing anymore permanent posts. I do indeed enjoy long holidays, enforced by the fact that the college closes and I am not paid for this time, so struggle along by saving to pay rent etc. I could live better if I didn't have a horse, but on the other side I don't have children so I think they are comparable in cost. I doubt very much I will be taking home a massive pension, and don't think I am living in enviable conditions compared to a private sector worker. I am sure I will be told to suck it up, and I did end up choosing this career so must bear some of the responsibility, but the same can be said for anyone who chose private sector over public - you made a choice, so don't castigate others for the choice they made. The govt promised a certain pension per worker, they can no longer deliver. How or why they can no longer deliver is somewhat irrelevant as they made a deal and now are reneging. The fact they already did something similar to the private sector does not make it right.

I also find it infuriating that C**tron and his colleagues rake in huge salaries, retire on huge pensions and seem to do very little more than make quips at each other across the house of commons. I would feel more vindicated if these swine were forced to endure the same conditions and cuts as their "employees" as it were. 

And Mr Clarkson, a spanner who spends his days having d*ck measuring contests with his friends by driving around in cars, has a brass neck on him for suggesting that he works hard. Faffing around in a car and occasionally ejaculating some diatribe intended to offend and bait those of a sensitive nature does not equate to hard work in my book!!


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## scullysdad (5 December 2011)

BeesKnees said:



			I quote from today's Telegraph on the monthly Office of National Statistics figures ( which is an independent organisation - before anyone argues this is just a Torygraph spin):

"*Workers in the public sector are now being paid more than £2,000 extra a year compared with employees in the private sector*, after public sector pay continued to race ahead of inflation.

The average public sector worker was paid £23,660 a year, compared with private sector workers who were paid £21,528 a year, in the three months to the end of November.
This is the first time that the gap, which has slowly widened under the Labour Government, has hit more than £2,000 and came *as figures showed that the discrepancy between pay increases in the public and private sector had never been so wide.*
*The data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) prompted experts to warn that so far the private sector had borne the brunt of the recession *and that the Government needed to take action sooner rather than later to tackle the growing public sector wage bill.

*Nearly all of the increase came from the public sector, with nurses, teachers, civil servants and other public workers enjoying an average annual pay rise of 3.8 per cent in the three months to the end of November. Meanwhile private sector employees saw their salaries rise by just 0.2 per cent,* as thousands of firms froze their workers' pay as part of a desperate bid to cut costs in the recession."

The public sector 'deal' (that you took a lower paid job in exchange for benefits and a  good pension) has not been true for some time and is no longer a valid argument.
		
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Public service pay scales have been frozen but people still progress up the scales until they reach the maximum - hence the higher award figures in the sector - you could argue that the rate for the job is the max of the scale - everyone below the max is being underpaid for the job.

The average wage bill per employee is going to increase as a higher percentage of the workforce will be on the max of their scales - nothing to do with pay awards but the contraction in the public sector which sees fewer jobs for new people at the lower end of the scales. The £2000 gap is for AVERAGE salaries - get rid of all public sector workers bar one and pay that one £30,000 and you have a "gap" of £8,500! 

The argument is still very valid for people who joined the public service some time ago!


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## BeesKnees (5 December 2011)

scullysdad said:



			Public service pay scales have been frozen but people still progress up the scales until they reach the maximum - hence the higher award figures in the sector - 

*Whether it's a pay award or an incremental rise, it's still a pay rise and one that private sector workers aren't getting!*

you could argue that the rate for the job is the max of the scale - everyone below the max is being underpaid for the job.

*So you mean 'real' public sector pay should be even higher?!*

The average wage bill per employee is going to increase as a higher percentage of the workforce will be on the max of their scales - nothing to do with pay awards but the contraction in the public sector which sees fewer jobs.   for new people at the lower end of the scales. 

*The contraction is happening at middle and higher ends too i.e. The restructuring of Primary Care is taking a whole tranche of management out of the NHS; and the creation of school 'Super Heads' who run two or three schools thereby only requiring one person instead of several. Thus the reduction in top level positions and their pay.*

 The £2000 gap is for AVERAGE salaries - get rid of all public sector workers 
bar one and pay that one £30,000 and you have a "gap" of £8,500! 

*Yes but it's the median (of millions, not one!), and not the mean, which makes it a more accurate average. And the argument that the top end pay skews the figures is true for both sides, probably more so for the private sector where pay differentials between top and bottom are massive.*

The argument is still very valid for people who joined the public service some time ago!
		
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Yes, you're annoyed that you won't get what you were promised. We get that, and have some sympathy because we have been going through it for years! It's the attitude that because you are public sector, you should be protected from the financial realities of the current economic situation that gets on our wick!


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## stencilface (5 December 2011)

BeesKnees said:



			Yes, you're annoyed that you won't get what you were promised. We get that, and have some sympathy because we have been going through it for years! It's the attitude that because you are public sector, you should be protected from the financial realities of the current economic situation that gets on our wick!
		
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I think this sums it up perfectly.


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## FairyLights (5 December 2011)

BeesKnees said:



			I quote from today's Telegraph on the monthly Office of National Statistics figures ( which is an independent organisation - before anyone argues this is just a Torygraph spin):

"*Workers in the public sector are now being paid more than £2,000 extra a year compared with employees in the private sector*, after public sector pay continued to race ahead of inflation.

The average public sector worker was paid £23,660 a year, compared with private sector workers who were paid £21,528 a year, in the three months to the end of November.
This is the first time that the gap, which has slowly widened under the Labour Government, has hit more than £2,000 and came *as figures showed that the discrepancy between pay increases in the public and private sector had never been so wide.*
*The data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) prompted experts to warn that so far the private sector had borne the brunt of the recession *and that the Government needed to take action sooner rather than later to tackle the growing public sector wage bill.

*Nearly all of the increase came from the public sector, with nurses, teachers, civil servants and other public workers enjoying an average annual pay rise of 3.8 per cent in the three months to the end of November. Meanwhile private sector employees saw their salaries rise by just 0.2 per cent,* as thousands of firms froze their workers' pay as part of a desperate bid to cut costs in the recession."

The public sector 'deal' (that you took a lower paid job in exchange for benefits and a  good pension) has not been true for some time and is no longer a valid argument.
		
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So if all public sector workers get a 10% pay cut it would bring them in line with everybody else,but their pensions would still be better so they couldnt complain. Would save the country a fortune,lets hope the Gov implements this.


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## Wundahorse (5 December 2011)

I well remember the times when public sector pay was so bad that a career in Teaching,Nursing etc amounted to a vocation rather than a profession,whereas in certain elements of the private sector things were very rosy.In recent years unions have had to fight to receive a decent salary for the responsibilities that we have.I wonder how Jezza would fare if he had to do my job.I rather think he would run a mile,back to the home comforts of playing cars with his little friends.I have lost count of the times i have stayed behind to help hard pressed colleagues on the wards,and this i still do.If any of my patients are in crisis,i cannot leave until i have managed to arrange for various interventions,and they are safe to be left.Sadly,only very negative tales are told about teachers,Nurses and Doctors,but the public are unaware of the dedication that goes on behind the scenes,and this is with a backdrop of never ending cutbacks.Jezza needs a reality check.


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## animal (5 December 2011)

minkymoo said:



			Quote from a Unison rep: "Whilst he is driving round in fast cars for a living, public sector workers are busy holding our society together - they save others' lives on a daily basis, they care for the sick, the vulnerable, the elderly."

Umm, not when they are on strike they don't.

I object to being referred to as a 'pencil pusher' and 'in a gilded cage' just because I work in the private sector. I work damn hard thank you and at the end of the day, we all make our career choices. If you don't like it, get a different job!
		
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Obviously when they on strike they don't; but partly this is why they strike- they vital jobs in society and we would miss them if we didn't have them.  
No one batted an eyelid when schools closed for the royal wedding.;

If they got a different job they would have to pay people more to do the job then!

As i said before, i'd rather be in an office when i'm 67 than teaching rowdy kids!


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## Black_Horse_White (6 December 2011)

I work for the public sector are in the union but chose not to strike. I only work part-time as do the majority of the people I work with, and to be honest the pension we will receive now or when they bring in the changes won't make that much difference to me. I feel lucky at this present time to have a job, and don't agree with crippling even further an aurthority that has to make millions of pounds in cuts already.


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## Wundahorse (6 December 2011)

I also elected not to strike as did most front line medical staff,but respect the fact that the Teachers stood up  in force,losing a days pay to make a point that the Govt..can't continue bullying people.The fact is staff are having their pay cut,with many people being forced into accepting lower bands of pay.In the NHS you have to jump through so many hurdles to gain increments these days,without any guarantee of success.Also it needs to be taken into account that some Teachers are vilified for supposedly failing to educate kids.The reality is some kids,and their parents are not interested in learning and do not encourage them to achieve academically.This is caused by inherent social problems prevalent in our society.I know i could not teach these kids,and TBH would not want to.It is very easy to blame Teacher's,Doctor's and Nurse's,not to mention Social Worker's,when in fact the root cause lies elsewhere.Perhaps the delightful JC might like to teach in a sink school as one of his Top Gear challenges,or anyone on this forum who is critical of these public sector servants.They may well need to reappraise their awareness and assumptions.


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## mle22 (6 December 2011)

horserider said:



			Is Unison the new government ?
 Power seems to have gone to their heads, not content with trying to leave the sick and elderly without care, children without education, the grieving unable to bury their dead, they now want to deprive us of Top Gear.

I never thought I'd say this, but bring back Mrs Thatcher. Someone needs to have the balls to stop this madness.
		
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Mrs Thatcher doesn't have balls.


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## Onyxia (6 December 2011)

Hollyberry said:



			Much as Jeremy Clarkson irritates me, he does also make me laugh and he is right on the button with this one.  Idiots who striked yesterday might not be so smug if they were instantly replaced.  In these difficult times anybody who has a secure job should be thankful, there are not many people who have a secure pension in store for them and for too long the public sector have been pandered and spoilt and yes I know a lot of them do a good job, I am one of them, but you have got to be realistic in the financial mess we are in and just belt up and get on with it like a lot of people in the private sector are doing.
		
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To be fair, it is not a simple case of wanting to strike.
I am a personal friend of a few of the teachers at my son's primary school, none of them wanted to strike and the decision to close the school was made at the last moment with great regret.
Their union has put a huge amount of pressure on them to strike and they are all going above and beyound to make sure the children get the day back somewhere else in the school year.
Granted that may not be the same situation in all schools, butplease keep in mind that not everyone who was on stike wanted to be.


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## Onyxia (6 December 2011)

mle22 said:



			Mrs Thatcher doesn't have balls.
		
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She did.

The balls of every male MP who opossed her was kept in a trophy cabinet at Number 10


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## cptrayes (7 December 2011)

Yunalesca said:



			To be fair, it is not a simple case of wanting to strike.
I am a personal friend of a few of the teachers at my son's primary school, none of them wanted to strike and the decision to close the school was made at the last moment with great regret.
Their union has put a huge amount of pressure on them to strike and they are all going above and beyound to make sure the children get the day back somewhere else in the school year.
Granted that may not be the same situation in all schools, butplease keep in mind that not everyone who was on stike wanted to be.
		
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Did someone hold a gun to their heads to make them close the school?  If they didn't want to be on strike why were they on strike?  What an example to give the kids "We don't wan't to strike but some nasty Union people are verbally bullying us and making us do it."


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## BeesKnees (7 December 2011)

To be fair, my understanding is that if you are a member of a union and the ballot comes out in favour of a strike, you are expected to go along with the majority decision. Thats the deal. Its not really an option not to strike. 

Where they do have a choice is in which union they join ( or indeed whether they join one ). So for instance my sister, who is a teacher chose not to join the NUT as she believed they were too hardline. 

She's off on mats leave at the mo, so didn't have to make the decision.

I believe in the principle of unions and the right to strike. I just wish those who support this one showed a little more awareness and sensitivity of the fact that the average private sector worker is worse off than they are yet is still contributing to their pensions, when they often don't have a pension of their own.


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## perfect11s (7 December 2011)

mle22 said:



			Mrs Thatcher doesn't have balls.
		
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 I think the expresson is just that   and yes she did and no cameron dos'nt or they are very tiny so we are screwed!!!???


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## cptrayes (7 December 2011)

BeesKnees said:



			To be fair, my understanding is that if you are a member of a union and the ballot comes out in favour of a strike, you are expected to go along with the majority decision. Thats the deal. Its not really an option not to strike.
		
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Plenty of NUT teachers made that decision not to support the strike though......  some of them were brave (otherwise known as "scabs"), some probably could not afford to lose the pay.


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## BeesKnees (7 December 2011)

Fair play to them. Not an easy thing to do. The whole 'scab' thing must be pretty intimidating.


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## cptrayes (7 December 2011)

I agree, I  left the PS Union I was in when I realised what they were doing in my name. When they negotiate a national pay agreement for you it feels wrong not to pay your subs, but when they manage to negotiate "weekly productivity  bonus" to be paid to park maintenance staff who are on holiday, etc etc etc I couldn't stomach it. It's weak management that's allowed it of course, but it's got to change, we've run out of dosh. (thanks Gordon!)


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## EAST KENT (8 December 2011)

Fii-ling Festive said:



			Jeremy Clarkson is a member on this forum. 

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   Really?? Good on yer Jezza..PM for you next!


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## Alec Swan (8 December 2011)

Clarkson,  if you really are on here,  you're not exactly backward in coming forward,  so step froward.  You'll receive some support! 

Alec.


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## EAST KENT (8 December 2011)

perfect11s said:



			I doubt I would have a sense of humor  either if I lived somewhere it rains and is cold most of the year 

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 Yup,only a wee dram ..or five..to keep warm with.And then the Scots just get plain nasty with drink. Must be bad  with all that wet and dark though,sorry for them  really.Jezza`s humour is dry English ,done at a purposely ridiculous level, if you believe it ,you are the fkwit. 
   One of my friends greatest jokes,which has all of us crying with laughter,involves a "mobile crematorium" on wheels with a bell to ring.Her suggestion is that all irritating humans could be flung out of the door as it passes,thus there would be no more mother in law problems  etc.
    As with Jezza it could be offensive out of context.Lighten up for Gawd`s Sake


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## Miss L Toe (9 December 2011)

BeesKnees said:



			To be fair, my understanding is that if you are a member of a union and the ballot comes out in favour of a strike, you are expected to go along with the majority decision. Thats the deal. Its not really an option not to strike. 

Where they do have a choice is in which union they join ( or indeed whether they join one ). So for instance my sister, who is a teacher chose not to join the NUT as she believed they were too hardline. 

She's off on mats leave at the mo, so didn't have to make the decision.

I believe in the principle of unions and the right to strike. I just wish those who support this one showed a little more awareness and sensitivity of the fact that the average private sector worker is worse off than they are yet is still contributing to their pensions, when they often don't have a pension of their own.
		
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1] democracy, is reason for the vote
2] "mats leave" is that teacher speak for maternity leave, something negotiated by unions:  in Ye Olden Days [1950's] a girl getting married had to leave her work to become a home-maker.
Without unions the UK could still be a third world country, is that what you want?
I believe that if you think one particular union is too extreme you can donate the fees to a charity, or not join the union, or join another union.
I was once a civil servant, and if I met someone with the attitude "we pay your wages" I was not impressed. A civil servant is not in a position to be confrontational, but you should be aware that they are there to support the structure of the country, most confrontational comments come from people who would not pass civil service exams or interviews.


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## fburton (11 December 2011)

perfect11s said:



			where   money comes from?????
		
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Where _does_ money come from?? As far as I can make out, most of it is created by banks out of thin air! Hmmm...


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## BeesKnees (11 December 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			1] democracy, is reason for the vote
2] "mats leave" is that teacher speak for maternity leave, something negotiated by unions:  in Ye Olden Days [1950's] a girl getting married had to leave her work to become a home-maker.
Without unions the UK could still be a third world country, is that what you want?
I believe that if you think one particular union is too extreme you can donate the fees to a charity, or not join the union, or join another union..
		
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MrsD123 I'm not sure why you seem to be taking me to task over a post where I clearly state my support for the principle of unions and the right to strike 

Did you actually read it?

As for "most confrontational comments being made by people who wouldn't pass civil service exams" I would say that your complete failure to grasp my post, despite being an ex civil servant, doesn't bear witness to your assertion.

 And furthermore judging by the quality of argument on this and the other thread on pensions, those supporting the strike have shown themselves largely to lack even the basic understanding of how the public sector and their pensions are financed. Those questioning the strike have been mixed but some have shown often a higher level of rational argument.

And as for "holding the structure of society together", I think all the people who build and maintain the houses, the hospitals, the schools, the roads, the transport systems, grow the food, process and package the food, staff the shops, stack the shelves in the middle of the night, work in the factories etc etc etc....... would take serious issue with your idea that civil servants keep society going. 

it's precisely that narrow, selfish, heads up your own arses, attitude that pisses people off.


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## cptrayes (11 December 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			Most confrontational comments come from people who would not pass civil service exams or interviews.
		
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I would reply to this but I am still p*ssing myself laughing so hard that I can't see the keyboard properly to formulate a sensible message.


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## BeesKnees (11 December 2011)

Oh and as for the original point of this thread, Jeremy Clarksons joke wasn't really about the strike, if you read the transcript you'll see it was about the BBC and the alleged need for balance in all BBC discussion about issues. He states the fact that ' this is the BBC so we have to be balanced ' and then goes on to be as controversial and unbalanced as he could be.

Geddit now?


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## MerrySherryRider (11 December 2011)

Santa Paws said:



			I would reply to this but I am still p*ssing myself laughing so hard that I can't see the keyboard properly to formulate a sensible message.
		
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Yes, that has to be a classic !
 Late husband was a highly qualified civil servant and I qualified as a nurse in 1981 and we were always of the opinion that being a public servant meant duty and responsibility to those we served.
I certainly see striking teachers in a new light since they became so militant. Shame.


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## scullysdad (12 December 2011)

And as for "holding the structure of society together", I think all the people who build and maintain the houses, the hospitals, the schools, the roads, the transport systems, grow the food, process and package the food, staff the shops, stack the shelves in the middle of the night, work in the factories etc etc etc....... would take serious issue with your idea that civil servants keep society going.
		
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If the public sector are that inconsequential then why take issue with them striking - surely you wouldn't notice that they were not working?  Oh - you mean that parents/grandparents would have to stop work to look after the kids, that commerce into and out of the country would stop because there is no UK Border Agency clearing goods/people, better get the first aid box up to date then cos there would only be expensive private hospitals. And if you think that the elected politicians ( even Maggie) run the country then I suggest you watch a few episodes of Yes Minister.

Oh and I am NOT a public sector worker - I run my own business and export to the rest of the world so I do my "bit" for the UK economy.


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## nursecroft (12 December 2011)

I am a community sister... the only benefit i got was my pension, if i had my time again i would do a different job. I can't afford to support myself and my son on my wages yet i went to uni worked hard for 3 years, worked my way up through management and i get paid half the wage of a manager at sainsburys!!! Don't get me wrong i love my job but the reality of trying to live on what i get paid makes me think really i should do something else. 

Nurses are just not valued anymore in this country, I know there are a few that really do make me ashamed sometimes to call myself a nurse but I work hard, I care about the people I look after and treat, I'd hate to give up something I feel I am really good at and that I am passionate about.

As or Jeremy Clarkson, when he works 14 hour shifts, gets home late every night, is emotionally and physically exhausted after the tasks we do and gets paid my wage for it... then I will listen to what he has to say. He has no clue.

However I did not agree with the strikes, they did not help anyone.


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## cptrayes (12 December 2011)

nursecroft said:



			I am a community sister... the only benefit i got was my pension,
		
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and security of tenure
and life assurance
and pension due to ill health if injured or too ill to continue to work
and longer holidays than private sector workers
and more sick pay than private sector workers




nursecroft said:



			if i had my time again i would do a different job. I can't afford to support myself and my son on my wages yet i went to uni worked hard for 3 years, worked my way up through management and i get paid half the wage of a manager at sainsburys!!!
		
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Can we check this? What are you paid? Is there a Sainsbury's Manager here who can tell us what he/she is paid for running a store with several hundred employees in it open 7 days a week, and a couple of hundred thousand customers who can choose to go elsewhere if you get your job wrong?




nursecroft said:



			Don't get me wrong i love my job but the reality of trying to live on what i get paid makes me think really i should do something else.
		
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No one is stopping you. Do it.




nursecroft said:



			but I work hard, I care about the people I look after and treat, I'd hate to give up something I feel I am really good at and that I am passionate about.
		
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I don't doubt that at all, but there are thousands of people going to work today who HATE their jobs but they are doing it to put food on their families tables. You are lucky that you are passionate about your work. 



nursecroft said:



			However I did not agree with the strikes, they did not help anyone.
		
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We agree on that one!


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## Queenbee87 (12 December 2011)

http://sainsburys.jobs/vacancy/search?searchString=Store Manager

In a "local" sainsburys store (ie those tiny ones) between £25k-£40k in london and up to £35k in aberdeen for a store manager.


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## EAST KENT (12 December 2011)

stysh said:



			jeremy clarkson is hot and sexy i like him..
		
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    Mmmmmmm


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## nursecroft (12 December 2011)

Santa Paws said:



			and security of tenure
and life assurance
and pension due to ill health if injured or too ill to continue to work
and longer holidays than private sector workers
and more sick pay than private sector workers




Can we check this? What are you paid? Is there a Sainsbury's Manager here who can tell us what he/she is paid for running a store with several hundred employees in it open 7 days a week, and a couple of hundred thousand customers who can choose to go elsewhere if you get your job wrong?




No one is stopping you. Do it.




I don't doubt that at all, but there are thousands of people going to work today who HATE their jobs but they are doing it to put food on their families tables. You are lucky that you are passionate about your work. 



We agree on that one!
		
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I have a friend who i a manager at Sainburys she worked her way up, has no professional qualifications and takes home double what I do. No I'm afraid I don't post my income on public forums.

Its attitudes like this that annoy me, I'd rather have less holiday and more pay thanks, I work an avarage of 2 hours per day overtime unpaid. Do I get more sick pay than all private workers? I wouldn't know am very rarely sick! I am passionate about my work because i believe I am doing something worthwhile to help others as well as earn a living for myself. However struggling as a single mum through no fault of my own by the way it makes me wish I had chosen a different career. Nursing is the pooriest paid profession in my opinion.

Oh no really? People will shop elsewhere if you make a mistake as a manager at Sainbury's... thats really quite terrible.... if I get my job wrong people can die.

I may go and work at the local run hospice anyway, they know how to treat their staff and the patients there are always lovely.

Like I said this country just does not value its nurses or have any clue what healthcare costs, all i ask is to be able to live on my wages.

I'm not going to comment further on this as I have a feeling you will wind me up, no wonder no-one wants to go into nursing anymore.


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## cptrayes (12 December 2011)

nursecroft said:



			all i ask is to be able to live on my wages.
		
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I'll eat my hat if you do not live on a damned sight more money than most of your patients. You do realise that the AVERAGE income in this country is around £24k don't you?  That means for every investment banker earning £1,000,000 a year there are eight thousand people earning only £12.5k a year. MOST people in this country earn below the National Average. Do you?

Your continued stress on your qualifications is showing a nasty discriminatory attitiude towards people less qualified but equally as intelligent as you, or even more so. I think you'll also find that most Sainsbury's Managers came through their GRADUATE recruitment program. The rest were the cream of the cream of a shopful of workers who are not as fortunate as you are to have had the opportunity to go to university. Don't imagine for a moment that they couldn't have done, they just didn't get the chance.


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2011)

stysh said:



			jeremy clarkson is hot and sexy i like him..
		
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you need to get out more


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## nursecroft (12 December 2011)

I'm sure but I bet they don't have the responsibility I do or the qualifications. Other professional get paid a lot more than I do. Yes I did know that thank you. I didn't come here to get attacked by you so let's just leave it


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## cptrayes (12 December 2011)

nursecroft said:



			I'm not going to comment further on this as I have a feeling you will wind me up, no wonder no-one wants to go into nursing anymore.
		
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I have googled high and low and I can find no reference whatsoever to there being any difficulty in filling places on nurse training courses.

We are not training enough, but that's not because people don't want to do it, is it?


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2011)

nursecroft said:



			I have a friend who i a manager at Sainburys she worked her way up, has no professional qualifications and takes home double what I do. No I'm afraid I don't post my income on public forums.


Like I said this country just does not value its nurses or have any clue what healthcare costs, all i ask is to be able to live on my wages.

I'm not going to comment further on this as I have a feeling you will wind me up, no wonder no-one wants to go into nursing anymore.
		
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Well no need to comment, if that is how you perceive your job I suggest you move to another one, and in your profession there are many choices.
I think nurses are reasonably well paid, I think most get more than £24K[ Band 5] and if they can't live on that, well there is something wrong.


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## nursecroft (12 December 2011)

God you're like a dog with a bone, 3/4 of student nurses dropped out in the first year of training when i trained, they apply with a romantic view of doing something worthwhile and saving lives then they experience the working conditions and pay. Then there's all the complaints from patients which 90% are well justified but the solution to most of them is more staff which we just don't have.


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## nursecroft (12 December 2011)

Like I says I'm not here to be attacked by people who clearly have no clue what we do everyday or the wages we are actually on for the hours we do. Nice to know you all value nurses so much,  I do believe people should be paid according to the qualifications and responsibilities they have otherwise what was the point in me working my bum off at uni if it is worth nothing? I'd like you to leave me alone now, seems this forum is really very unfriendly and full of bullies that don't respect others views.


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2011)

nursecroft said:



			no wonder no-one wants to go into nursing anymore.
		
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So there is 25% unemployment in the 18 to 21 age bracket and none of them want a secure job with a well designed career structure, good terms and conditions,,,, something wrong here!


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## ChesnutsRoasting (12 December 2011)

stysh said:



			jeremy clarkson is hot and sexy i like him..
		
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.....should've gone to spec savers.............


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## nursecroft (12 December 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			So there is 25% unemployment in the 18 to 21 age bracket and none of them want a secure job with a well designed career structure, good terms and conditions,,,, something wrong here!
		
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Yes there is a lot of people can't handle the things we have to do! For example manual evacuations on disabled patients, cleaning people up when they are incontient, looking after a person that is dying and supporting their family. Believe it or not its not an easy job, the hours are long its emotionally and physically draining.

We signed a contract for a very good pension, I went into nursing thinking its something i really want to do because its rewarding helping people... yes the wage are not great as we do many more hours than we should but if a patient needs seeing after my shift finishes and no-one can do then i go which happens most days. I thought at least I'll have a secure job with a good pension that pays me sick pay if i am ill. The governement decided to change our pension without discussion, i can't speak for teachers and other public sector workers but nurses are tired, its all stick and no carrot. I feel sorry for many of my patients because we do the best we can but the nhs is running on less than minimal staff in alot of departments.

I really don't care what you lot think of me, I am proud of what I do and I appreciate nurses from the other side too having a terminally ill mum myself. 

I don't dispute that private sector workers have it hard, my family are not public sector workers.

I feel I am not getting anywhere here so lets just agree to disagree as this is the last thing i need right now.

I'll leave to carry on slagging us off.


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2011)

nursecroft said:



			God you're like a dog with a bone, 3/4 of student nurses dropped out in the first year of training when i trained, they apply with a romantic view of doing something worthwhile and saving lives then they experience the working conditions and pay. Then there's all the complaints from patients which 90% are well justified but the solution to most of them is more staff which we just don't have.
		
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To be objective, if there is a 75% failure rate there is something wrong with the interview stage.
Working conditions and pay, fgs its not all about evacuating patients!


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## Queenbee87 (12 December 2011)

No-one dies if I make a mistake in my job so there isn't that pressure but I do often have to work under pressure of a different kind.

I appreciate that nurses do work hard and I won't even pretend to know about the pay bands. I'm very grateful for the work that (most of them) do BUT please don't think you are the only profession where unpaid/unrecognised overtime is required or expected.

Not intended to be a personal attack but unpaid o/t is one of the arguments that have come up in these threads time and time again as some people seem to think it's only public sector workers who have to do this and no-one else has a demanding job.

IT'S NOT A COMPETITION AS TO WHO HAS THE HARDEST JOB


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2011)

Poor you, 
WAKE UP, you are not the only person who is in a difficult position, I just met a girl I know from 7 years ago, her family [four carers required] look after her 24/7, and now they have a people carrier with a ramp and all sorts, I think it must have cost about £20K, I don't grudge them, it is the cost of her living, she is paid for on the NH  /  benefit system in the UK,  given the choice, I am sure she would rather be healthy.
This lady can't speak. is doubly incontinent, and has to be fed by tube,  personally I am happy to be able to [financially] contibute to her care, without having to actually do it!


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## Wundahorse (12 December 2011)

Couldn't agree more Nursecroft.The problem is that most people have little real insight into the roles and responsibilities that qualified Nurses carry each shift,and beyond.My contract still makes me responsible for what happens when i am off duty.Furthermore,myself and colleagues have additional responsibilities,such as assessing and managing risk factors,safeguarding children and adults,attending public protection meetings,and having to come up with strategies in the absence of any legislation which helps us to manage risk.The media have been waging a negative campaign against NHS,Teachers etc for some time,with little substance behind their spurious allegations.One Harold Shipman or Beverley Allit does not mean all staff are bad,or let infections run rife.The inadequate system,and systematic underfunding caused the latter.The majority of staff provide a very dedicated service.I could bash the private sector,for failing to deliver a good service.Look at the case of HSBC,as one example of greed and corruption.I gather the financial advisor's took their big bonus and accepted no responsibility.Perhaps the private sector also needs a shake up to make it more competitive,and to provide the customer with a good service.


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## BeesKnees (12 December 2011)

nursecroft said:



			I'm sure but I bet they don't have the responsibility I do or the qualifications. Other professional get paid a lot more than I do. Yes I did know that thank you. I didn't come here to get attacked by you so let's just leave it 

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I'm sorry you are struggling Nursecroft and feel attacked but it is only because rpeatedly the public sector workers on here have shown absolutely NO idea about how tough things are for many private sector workers.

I manage a small business, which means I basically do everything including the monthly income and expenditure and performance accounts, writing contracts, policies and procedures and managing staff.  I have a degree and postgraduate qualifications. I also do unpaid hours most days.

No, people dont die if i dont do my job well, but the business owner risks losing his house and the ability to care for his 3 children if the business fails. So yes I think I do have a lot of responsibility and I am at least as qualified as you.

I earn considerably less than the average salary in the UK and due to the tough climate I have not had a pay rise in 3 years.

I have a tiny private pension that is worth less this year than last, and at today's value would pay £88. Per month. 

Now do you see that's why we get annoyed?


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## Wundahorse (12 December 2011)

Public sector workers are very aware of the difficult economic climate,but please do not blame us for that.Politicians,the bankers and the world economy has contributed to this.Times are very lean,but not so long ago,things were equally good,and i know lots of people in the private sector who did very well indeed.Don't worry though as the money i have to spend to live gets recycled back into the economy.


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2011)

I wonder if the  JC will ever comment, I think not.  I can stir up comment if I want, I can go down to LIDL and start shouting, they don't know me so I suppose they will send a PC to take me away , weep.
PS I did a send up on facebook, a lot of Fire on a Wind mill , lol you lot fell for it!


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## BeesKnees (12 December 2011)

Wundahorse said:



			Public sector workers are very aware of the difficult economic climate,but please do not blame us for that.
		
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I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I'm objecting to the self serving attitudes of many, attempting to garner sympathy for a strike with comments about how hard they work, how devoted they are blah blah. As if private sector workers were sitting around on their a***s!

If you believe in the cause, just do whatever you feel is right. Don't ask people who are worse off than you to give you their blessing.


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## Alec Swan (12 December 2011)

BeesKnees said:



			......... Don't ask people who are worse off than you to give you their blessing.
		
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For me,  that just about sums up the whole argument.  Well said.

Alec.


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## cptrayes (12 December 2011)

Wundahorse said:



			.I could bash the private sector,for failing to deliver a good service.
		
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NO-ONE has been bashing nurses for failing to deliver a good service.

ALL we have done is to point out that you work no harder than people in the private sector and you have an absolutely brilliant pension even AFTER the proposed changes, and yet your Unions have chosen to strike.

YOU are the ones who are choosing to interpret that as public sector bashing.


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## Holly Hocks (12 December 2011)

Santa Paws said:



			NO-ONE has been bashing nurses for failing to deliver a good service.

ALL we have done is to point out that you work no harder than people in the private sector and you have an absolutely brilliant pension even AFTER the proposed changes, and yet your Unions have chosen to strike.

YOU are the ones who are choosing to interpret that as public sector bashing.
		
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If it's any help, I work in the public sector but I understand that if the money's not there, it's not there!  Where do people think it's going to come from?

And working in the public sector is NOT harder than working in the private sector.  My sister works in the private sector and has to work far harder and much longer hours than me and suffers a great deal of stress.   I think those working in the public sector at the moment should feel very grateful.


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## Mrs B (12 December 2011)

Holly Hocks said:



			If it's any help, I work in the public sector but I understand that if the money's not there, it's not there!  Where do people think it's going to come from?

And working in the public sector is NOT harder than working in the private sector.  My sister works in the private sector and has to work far harder and much longer hours than me and suffers a great deal of stress.   I think those working in the public sector at the moment should feel very grateful.
		
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Thank you, HH! 

That's all we've been saying - not bashing, nor disrespecting, or being unappreciative, or anything akin to it.

We KNOW you do a valuable job. And we know it's pants at the moment. All we're saying is: we feel your pain because we've been going through the same thing since spring 2008. We, in the private sector, have lost thousands and seen our pensions dissolve. 

We saw massive, unsustainable growth and now we are paying for it. No-one blamed the bankers when they were making lots of money for us through pensions, shares and investments. But now they're not...

It's swings and roundabouts for everyone, whichever sector we work in and you can blame who you want, but the end result for most of us is the same.

But please, don't tell us that it's ok to disadvantage the rest of us by striking, as you don't hurt those you want to (whoever they are), just us.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (12 December 2011)

Haivng been a private sector worker for years and now working public sector I have to say I prefer the public sector (yep I know but I do) and I went on strike. NOT due to my pension being buggered (im not in it) But I supported what they were standing for and I wouldnt cross a picket line.

I was made redundant TWICE in the private sector to protect the bigwigs and shareholders bonuses so If I can im sticking with public sector .


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## nursecroft (12 December 2011)

For goodness sake i never said nurses worked harder than anyone in the private sector, i really don't appreciate having words put in my mouth. I don't think nurses get paid enough considering the skills, responibilty and education they have.... that is my opinion which i am perfectly entitled too!!!!!


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## nursecroft (12 December 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			Poor you, 
WAKE UP, you are not the only person who is in a difficult position, I just met a girl I know from 7 years ago, her family [four carers required] look after her 24/7, and now they have a people carrier with a ramp and all sorts, I think it must have cost about £20K, I don't grudge them, it is the cost of her living, she is paid for on the NH  /  benefit system in the UK,  given the choice, I am sure she would rather be healthy.
This lady can't speak. is doubly incontinent, and has to be fed by tube,  personally I am happy to be able to [financially] contibute to her care, without having to actually do it!
		
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why do you have to be so nasty???? 

I know full well there are lots of people worse of than me and trust me i have more going on in my life than just watching my mum die, i also nursed my 28 step brother and watched him die three years ago but thanks for the sympathy, you sound a lovely person.


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## nursecroft (12 December 2011)

BeesKnees said:



			I'm sorry you are struggling Nursecroft and feel attacked but it is only because rpeatedly the public sector workers on here have shown absolutely NO idea about how tough things are for many private sector workers.

I manage a small business, which means I basically do everything including the monthly income and expenditure and performance accounts, writing contracts, policies and procedures and managing staff.  I have a degree and postgraduate qualifications. I also do unpaid hours most days.

No, people dont die if i dont do my job well, but the business owner risks losing his house and the ability to care for his 3 children if the business fails. So yes I think I do have a lot of responsibility and I am at least as qualified as you.

I earn considerably less than the average salary in the UK and due to the tough climate I have not had a pay rise in 3 years.

I have a tiny private pension that is worth less this year than last, and at today's value would pay £88. Per month. 

Now do you see that's why we get annoyed?
		
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Yes i appreciate that as i have said i'm the only one in my family that is a public sector worker , i can't comment on the private sector as everyone has different employers or are self employed and yes i have the luxury of always knowing i have a job. But we went into nursing knowing what we would be getting and balancing it against posssibly risking working in the private sector. I really can't see how everyone has said all public workers don't appreciate how hard private workers work??? 

But thank you for being polite, there are quite a few nasty people on this forum, as a newbie I'm not sure i really want to stick around which is a shame.


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## nursecroft (12 December 2011)

Wundahorse said:



			Couldn't agree more Nursecroft.The problem is that most people have little real insight into the roles and responsibilities that qualified Nurses carry each shift,and beyond.My contract still makes me responsible for what happens when i am off duty.Furthermore,myself and colleagues have additional responsibilities,such as assessing and managing risk factors,safeguarding children and adults,attending public protection meetings,and having to come up with strategies in the absence of any legislation which helps us to manage risk.The media have been waging a negative campaign against NHS,Teachers etc for some time,with little substance behind their spurious allegations.One Harold Shipman or Beverley Allit does not mean all staff are bad,or let infections run rife.The inadequate system,and systematic underfunding caused the latter.The majority of staff provide a very dedicated service.I could bash the private sector,for failing to deliver a good service.Look at the case of HSBC,as one example of greed and corruption.I gather the financial advisor's took their big bonus and accepted no responsibility.Perhaps the private sector also needs a shake up to make it more competitive,and to provide the customer with a good service.
		
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Thank you, yes seems a very one sided debate with me getting a real bashing!! There is always pros and cons for working on either side, it seems a shame there seems to be a divide and them and us attitude now.


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## nursecroft (12 December 2011)

Wolfie said:



			Posted this on another thread and decided to throw it in here as well. Might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb 

I literally don't think it matters what anyone says, the views are too entrenched. The Private sector very obviously think that the public sector are bumbling, incompetent dolts that are latched onto a lucrative nipple and living a life of luxury with the promise of more reward in retirement. The public sector are exasperated and frustrated because they feel they have been robbed. The two sides will never see eye to eye, unless of course all public sector workers are reduced to minimum wage or something.

From my perspective things appear thus: I am a lecturer in FE. I work pretty hard, pay loads of tax and am expecting to work until I am about 70 before I can afford to retire. However, I am also a temporary member of staff, since cuts have placed an embargo on appointing anymore permanent posts. I do indeed enjoy long holidays, enforced by the fact that the college closes and I am not paid for this time, so struggle along by saving to pay rent etc. I could live better if I didn't have a horse, but on the other side I don't have children so I think they are comparable in cost. I doubt very much I will be taking home a massive pension, and don't think I am living in enviable conditions compared to a private sector worker. I am sure I will be told to suck it up, and I did end up choosing this career so must bear some of the responsibility, but the same can be said for anyone who chose private sector over public - you made a choice, so don't castigate others for the choice they made. The govt promised a certain pension per worker, they can no longer deliver. How or why they can no longer deliver is somewhat irrelevant as they made a deal and now are reneging. The fact they already did something similar to the private sector does not make it right.

I also find it infuriating that C**tron and his colleagues rake in huge salaries, retire on huge pensions and seem to do very little more than make quips at each other across the house of commons. I would feel more vindicated if these swine were forced to endure the same conditions and cuts as their "employees" as it were. 

And Mr Clarkson, a spanner who spends his days having d*ck measuring contests with his friends by driving around in cars, has a brass neck on him for suggesting that he works hard. Faffing around in a car and occasionally ejaculating some diatribe intended to offend and bait those of a sensitive nature does not equate to hard work in my book!!
		
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Brilliant post


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## nursecroft (12 December 2011)

perfect11s said:



			Christ's sake!!!!  he is a presenter on a childish motoring program  he writes a collum in a paper or two and he is well known for winding up the dull , po faced  , and these cretins that believe the world is going to melt if we dont tax everyone in the into poverty amongst others!!! get over it he is a jester .
and as for you mupets in the public sector instead of kicking off  and telling everyone what a fantastic job you do for little money  think about the recent failings in the NHS like stafford hospital, MRSA, and shocking lack of care for the elderly that has been reported in the papers and even on the lefty bbc, police arent exactly stellar either , Teachers  judging from the sullen chav scum with little or no work ethic that seem to roam the streets need to up their game too ... so lose the sense of intitlement  and get on with the jobs be the best...and stop digging yourself's deeper  with your arrogant comments , your unions puppet goverment is out of office and the present lot are making an attempt to ballance the books ..so get over it...
		
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You are very rude and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, you'd soon be grateful is one of us 'muppets' saves your life. Jesus have any of you lot slagging of NHS staff actually re-read your disgusting posts???? I appreciate everyone that works hard for the economy but respect is a two way street and your pathetic insults really do not help.

Yes as with all professions/jobs there are people that should not be doing it, if all us nurses are so bad lets see how you get on without us!!!! Anyone would think we were the worst kind of people in the world, there just to cause problems not help people. What a stupid mindless post.


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## perfect11s (13 December 2011)

nursecroft said:



			You are very rude and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, you'd soon be grateful is one of us 'muppets' saves your life. Jesus have any of you lot slagging of NHS staff actually re-read your disgusting posts???? I appreciate everyone that works hard for the economy but respect is a two way street and your pathetic insults really do not help.

Yes as with all professions/jobs there are people that should not be doing it, if all us nurses are so bad lets see how you get on without us!!!! Anyone would think we were the worst kind of people in the world, there just to cause problems not help people. What a stupid mindless post.
		
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  I now strongly believe the people in the public sector must  inhabit a parallel universe and/ or are totaly incapable of seeing wood for trees.....


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## nursecroft (13 December 2011)

perfect11s said:



			I now strongly believe the people in the public sector must  inhabit a parallel universe and/ or are totaly incapable of seeing wood for trees.....
		
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Yes obviously all us public sector workers are aliens really too and secretly have 8 legs and 5 eyes... no wonder we are so different to you human private sector workers 

Anyway... i'm back off to talk about horses which is the reason i have joined this forum... luckily there are also some pleasant people here too.


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## Miss L Toe (13 December 2011)

nursecroft said:



			why do you have to be so nasty???? 

I know full well there are lots of people worse of than me and trust me i have more going on in my life than just watching my mum die, i also nursed my 28 step brother and watched him die three years ago but thanks for the sympathy, you sound a lovely person.
		
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I am not being nasty, I am being objective, you  don't like the job so I think you should change it, as I said before, there are many jobs for qualified nurses.
I was not comparing your situation to being a paraplegic, what I was responding to your idea that we don't know the cost of the NHS, and that nurses are not valued.
If you read my thread you should see that I am happy to pay my share of this lady's care, though I am not involved in the allocation of funds, they are available and her care is paid for out of taxation, this is one example of taxpayers contributing to the NHS
If you check back you will see that in principle I can understand the PS workers striking because they signed up for a good job with a good pension. 
As in most jobs, not many 19 year olds' concern themselves with the pension part of the package, it starts to become more relevant when they have been working for ten and more years. In the case of nursing, this should almost always be a vocational element when choosing this as a career.
PS I watched my mother die when I was a child, killed by passive smoking [selfish husband], and my father was bedridden for five years, nursed 24/7 by his replacement wife, this was his choice, and he was such a pain in the ass that no one in the NHS including his doctor would visit or support him


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## BeesKnees (13 December 2011)

Mrs B said:



			Thank you, HH! 

That's all we've been saying - not bashing, nor disrespecting, or being unappreciative, or anything akin to it.

We KNOW you do a valuable job. And we know it's pants at the moment. All we're saying is: we feel your pain because we've been going through the same thing since spring 2008. We, in the private sector, have lost thousands and seen our pensions dissolve. 

We saw massive, unsustainable growth and now we are paying for it. No-one blamed the bankers when they were making lots of money for us through pensions, shares and investments. But now they're not...

It's swings and roundabouts for everyone, whichever sector we work in and you can blame who you want, but the end result for most of us is the same.

But please, don't tell us that it's ok to disadvantage the rest of us by striking, as you don't hurt those you want to (whoever they are), just us.
		
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THIS ^^


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## hackneylass2 (14 December 2011)

At this time, the economy is so fragile that if you are lucky enough to be in a job, pensions should be the least of your worries. Some employers really are taking the P....I recently applied for a medical copywriting post which, after I worked out the rate per 1000 words, would have paid me an average of 81p per hour. Too many previously paid posts are now staffed by volunteers too...more Big Society rubbish.


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## Alec Swan (14 December 2011)

Mrs B said:



			Thank you, HH! 

That's all we've been saying - not bashing, nor disrespecting, or being unappreciative, or anything akin to it.

We KNOW you do a valuable job. And we know it's pants at the moment. All we're saying is: we feel your pain because we've been going through the same thing since spring 2008. We, in the private sector, have lost thousands and seen our pensions dissolve. 

We saw massive, unsustainable growth and now we are paying for it. No-one blamed the bankers when they were making lots of money for us through pensions, shares and investments. But now they're not...

It's swings and roundabouts for everyone, whichever sector we work in and you can blame who you want, but the end result for most of us is the same.

But please, don't tell us that it's ok to disadvantage the rest of us by striking, as you don't hurt those you want to (whoever they are), just us.
		
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That's about it,  I suppose.

I have a FIL who suffers from dementia,  his driving licence has been taken from him.  He says it's not fair.  It's not,  but he has dementia,  and can't understand.  The bulk of the Public Sector workers should be in possession of their marbles,  and they should understand.  It's tough ***t,  get on with it,  as the rest of society does.

Alec.


Ets,  and would you be kind enough to stop whinging,  it's becoming tedious! a.


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