# legislation will kill my horses, please help!



## champion44 (1 February 2012)

for 20 years I have run a horse sanctuary, to fund it I find 'mums' who pay £35 a week to have their own horse, ALL costs included. About 20 of the 100 equines bring in this amount and for all this time everyone has been very happy, the horses were cared for and loved, the children who couldn't otherwise have their own pony had that experience, our rent, feed bills, vet bills etc were paid.  Now Stratford council say we are a riding establishment, and as such need a licence, I have incured costs of £1000 to do the necessary vetting etc, but the things we need to do are just not affordable, least of all providing a stable for each horse, although they all live out, except when ill, for which I am sure we would not obtain planning permission anyway.   PLEASE can anyone come up with any ideas????   If we don't meet the legislation I will be prosecuted for acting outside the law. If I stop having 'mums' I have no income, cannot pay the rent on our 200acres, pay our £700 a week hay bill, our £3500 vet bill, etc etc.  the horses are, by definition not saleable, most are not even re homeable.
This is not a welfare issue, there is NO question of the horses not being cared for, it is just red tape!  but it will kill my horses! although to destroy them all will cost £50,000 which, needless to say I don't have!
The legislation is, rightly, in place to protect horses, in my case it will destroy them........WHAT CAN I DO???? to satisfy the council and keep the income to provide for them all.....HELP!!!!


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## Tinsel Trouble (1 February 2012)

You need to contact the BHS and speak to their legal team for proper advice.

Also I doubt it would cost £50,000 to PTS 100 horses! Speak to the local hunt.

I can't see a website for a horse sanctuary in the Stratford area- apart from Redwings. Which charity are you?


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## Marydoll (1 February 2012)

Get in touch with whw and BHS, they will have access to legal people who may be able to help you. Im sorry i cant be more helpful


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## touchstone (1 February 2012)

What an awful dilemma for you, my only thought would be that if there are any barns existing on the property that you could use as large indoor turnout areas (ie stabling)   I knew a riding school that kept many ponies overwintered in a large barn and it worked really well, also using field shelters as stabling where necessary if you have them.


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## Elbie (1 February 2012)

Without knowing what the legislation actually says its hard to comment.

But, under what terms are they defining you a riding establishment?

Is it not possible to register as a charity and have people donate instead of 'loan'?


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## cm2581 (1 February 2012)

I can't see how you are a 'riding establishment' but I have a feeling this is a legal matter. Is suggest paying for BHS gold membership, or whw membership and take advantage of the legal helpline. I'm sure its possible, things like registering as a charity and your 'mums' being volunteers and them making donations. I think its really going to be down to the wording in paperwork. Best of luck.


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## OWLIE185 (1 February 2012)

Lets's have the link to your website or the name and contact details of your farm.


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## rhino (1 February 2012)

We had to have this done on a 'city farm' I worked at, as you are using the horses for 'financial gain' (even if not at profit) I don't think there is any way you will get out of it (and I would worry how you managed to get insurance without it anyway). It is there for the welfare of the horses AND the riders. 

Unless the legislation has changed in the last couple of years there was no need to provide stabling for EVERY animal, as long as you had stabling facilities and all animals had access to some shelter. I have done a quick check online and the application forms for the licenses haven't changed. 

Do you have charitable status?


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## rhino (1 February 2012)

Elbie said:



			But, under what terms are they defining you a riding establishment?
		
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Because it is seen that the OP is obtaining money from the horses being ridden. It is not really an 'adoption' but more of a loan agreement legally.


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## Tinsel Trouble (1 February 2012)

OWLIE185 said:



			Lets's have the link to your website or the name and contact details of your farm.
		
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^^^ still waiting for this


I feel so horrid being pessimistic- but the figures don't stack up, and the post seems patchy... sorry!


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## Marydoll (1 February 2012)

Im kinda getting the same feelings as TT from this post, if im wrong please accept my apologies, but it sounds like youve never kept yourself up to date with the required legislation, or found out about the legal ramifications  of diversifying to pay costs. While the prospect of running a sanctuary is very noble, the reality of whats happening to you highlights why you must know what youre doing.


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## rhino (1 February 2012)

These are the documents you need to read over

Riding Establishment Act 1964
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1964/70

Riding Establishment Act 1970
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1970/32

No need for stabling for pastured animals, but shelter must be available.


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## ester (1 February 2012)

you original post states that you have a £700 pw hay bill

but that 20 horses are 'loaned' at £35 pw = £500 pw income. 

so there must be other income too


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## rhino (1 February 2012)

ester said:



			you original post states that you have a £700 pw hay bill

but that 20 horses are 'loaned' at £35 pw = £500 pw income. 

so there must be other income too 

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I take it Maths wasn't your favourite subject at school Ester?

35 x 20 = £700  

But yes, I had realised that there must be some other income too.


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## Amymay (1 February 2012)

OP - you may want to contact other organisations to see what they do to raise money.

I'm thinking of the smaller charitable operators such as Equine Market Watch and the Society for the Welfare of Horses & Ponies.

I'm sure there must be a way around this - I.e.  Your mum's don't pay you - but make charitable contributions instead etc.  But you'd need a specialist lawyer to help you out with that one I would imagine.

Also, what is your organisation called??

Good luck - and look forward to the link to the website.


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## rhino (1 February 2012)

amymay said:



			I'm sure there must be a way around this - I.e.  Your mum's don't pay you - but make charitable contributions instead etc.  But you'd need a specialist lawyer to help you out with that one I would imagine.
		
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It's the fact that the horses are being used 'for hire' that is the problem here, as I said if they are being ridden then you need a riding establishment license. 

If people are truly 'adopting' it is different, but then they wouldn't be riding the horses and I don't think too many people would be willing to pay £140 a month for that.


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## ester (1 February 2012)

lol I did it with 25 oops! 

It was just that the op said 'without the mums I have no income'

I imagine legally it is quite complicated but that in essence it is all insurance related whether the riders are paying to have the horses or they make regular contributions but are regular 'volunteers'.


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## jendie (1 February 2012)

Agree with earlier poster that a barn would provide shelter for a good number of horses. Field shelter etc will count.
You need to be registered to be insured....


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## Amymay (1 February 2012)

rhino said:



			It's the fact that the horses are being used 'for hire' that is the problem here, as I said if they are being ridden then you need a riding establishment license. 

If people are truly 'adopting' it is different, but then they wouldn't be riding the horses and I don't think too many people would be willing to pay £140 a month for that.
		
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It would be good if the OP could confirm whether the horses are being ridden or not.

But they seem to have gone......


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## Amymay (1 February 2012)

And of course, Redwings is not far from you, either OP.  Might be worth getting in touch to see what advice they can give you.


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## rhino (1 February 2012)

amymay said:



			It would be good if the OP could confirm whether the horses are being ridden or not.

But they seem to have gone......
		
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If they are not being ridden there would be NO NEED to have a Riding Establishment Licence anyway


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## Lady La La (1 February 2012)

rhino said:



			If they are not being ridden there would be NO NEED to have a Riding Establishment Licence anyway 

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If they are being ridden, I wouldd question why they are "by definition not saleable" and most are "not even re homeable" ...


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## rhino (1 February 2012)

Lady La La said:



			If they are being ridden, I wouldd question why they are "by definition not saleable" and most are "not even re homeable" ...
		
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Yes, that would have been another question for the OP to answer. Maybe she considers that the 20 LOAN horses would be rehomeable but not the other 80


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## mulledwhine (1 February 2012)

Re check the stabling issue, the stables my daughter rides at, deffiantly does not have a stable per horse, and all live out 24/7 365


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## Loopypony (1 February 2012)

Just for anyone who asked (I'm presuming here) that this sanctuary is Friends Of Champ (or something along the same name lines?). 

OP - I'd suggest you contact the BHS legal team. They know more about the specifics of this sort of thing.


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## rhino (1 February 2012)

Loopypony said:



			Just for anyone who asked (I'm presuming here) that this sanctuary is Friends Of Champ (or something along the same name lines?).
		
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This place?
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/304740.html

If it is, then the horses are ridden, and a riding establishment license will indeed be needed.

Please read the links I posted OP, and contact the vets in your area that carry out the licensing - to the best of my knowledge there is NO requirement for individual stabling for all equines.

OP - apologies if this is not your centre but the advice still applies - feel free to pm me if you want any more info on the licensing process.


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## Tinsel Trouble (1 February 2012)

Loopypony said:



			Just for anyone who asked (I'm presuming here) that this sanctuary is Friends Of Champ (or something along the same name lines?).
		
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When Stratford was mentioned I assumed the OP meant the London borough. I looked at Friends of Champ which is based in Wotton Warwen very close to Stratford-upon-Avon but the village appears to be adjacent to Henley-in-Arden... No actual address on their website though.

The website of Friends of Champ does seem to have ridden horses (for the cost of £155pcm!!  !). Any sign from the OP yet?


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## Wagtail (1 February 2012)

Those 'Mums' are effectively loaning your horses and you are not hiring them out for reward. Therefore you should be classed as a livery yard and not a riding school, and therefore do not need a licence (at the present time). So long as the 'Mums' have a loan contract and a livery contract with you, you should be fine I would think.

So what you do is draw up loan contracts and then charge them livery to keep the horses.


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## Square (1 February 2012)

i live by friends of champ rescue and the OP does sound as If they were the owner. 

The horses are ridden by being part loaned for £35 per week. My friend used to have one there.


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## OWLIE185 (1 February 2012)

Just check out this link:
http://www.yourhorse.co.uk/Communit...Categories/Topic/?topic-id=46804&start-page=0


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## Wagtail (1 February 2012)

OWLIE185 said:



			Just check out this link:
http://www.yourhorse.co.uk/Communit...Categories/Topic/?topic-id=46804&start-page=0

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I think that post was just someone with a grudge to bear. If you read all the replies most are in support of the centre and the OP was rubbished. I do not know these people, but reading between the lines it looks as though someone is out to cause trouble for the centre and no doubt were responsible for reporting them to the authorities as a riding establishment. I could be wrong of course, but these things often happen.


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## MissChaos (1 February 2012)

Also the one in the YH link is not the same place as this Friends of Champ (if that is indeed the one the OP is from).


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## Cuffey (1 February 2012)

This is the rescue OP is talking about

http://www.stratford-herald.com/local-news/3742-Horse-Rescued-From-Freezing-Canal.html

I cannot find Champ Equine Rescue on Charities Commission site


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## cremedemonthe (1 February 2012)

I know someone who has about 15 horses and ponies, most with stables they formed a co operative and for all intents and purposes it's run the same as a riding school but without a licence, don't know all the ins and outs of it but they don't seem to have any problems.


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## AdorableAlice (1 February 2012)

OP initial comments are very strange.  Normal procedure for obtaining a licence under the Riding Establishment Act is formal application to the local authority with the appropriate fee, which in Stratford is £215 for up to 30 horses, rising to £320 for over 40 horses, (this info is on their website). The Council would not instruct the vet until the form, fee and insurance documents are received.  On inspection any horses not involved in the hire and reward/riding school situation would not be inspected.  The vet can only look at those horses used by the public and for which the public pay to ride.   The vet will ask how many horses are on the premises and list the in work and unused horses on his report.

The inspection consists of heart, eyes and trot up of the horses, together with an inspection of tack for safety, and a general walk round to check fire procedures, first aid kit human and equine etc.  An average size school of say 60 horses will take around 3 hours to inspect

The vet then prepares his report detailing the names ages, height and sex of each horse together with a comment if necessary.  The report is then sent to the Licensing Officer at the local authority and subject to all being order the licence will be issued.  If there are any concerns the Licensing Officer will put conditions on the licence and monitor the school to ensure the improvements are made.

The OP has put some wild figures together and possibly does not understand the Riding Establishment Act.  It should be remembered any member of the public riding a horse for which they pay a fee to do so is effectively hiring that horse unless a loan or share agreement is signed by both parties.  A hired horse falls into the Riding Establishment Act, regardless of whether the horse is teaching you to piaffe or hack..

There are many riding schools pushed to the very brink of existence in the current recession so why should the OP rake in money for the hire of her horses and not expect to obey the rules.  The Act protects both the public and the horses, works perfectly well and I would advise the public always to ask if the school/yard they pay to ride at is licensed and carrying public liability insurance.

No I am not a bitter riding school owner struggling to survive and bitching at the Op.  I grant the licenses, not at Stratford DC, and I have seen at first hand the grief and injuries caused by unlicensed schools using not fit for purpose horses and premises.


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## moana (1 February 2012)

As others have said, if they are not being ridden, then a Riding School Licence would not be required. Hereby lies the answer. Stop them being ridden. Simplified maybe...but...


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## indie999 (1 February 2012)

Sounds a bit of a tall story?


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## rhino (1 February 2012)

OP did come back, but rather than reply on here they started a new thread in 'Stableyard' saying exactly the same thing


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## cally6008 (1 February 2012)

Other income = http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_13924.html ???

(found by googling phone number)


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## Toby_Zaphod (1 February 2012)

You need to get some quality legal advice. There are numerous laws on the statute books & they are primarily designed to 'police' certain activities. Sometimes they can be used for situations they were not designed for & this may be one of them. Don't give up, just because you appear to fall foul of a particular law, it does not mean that that law has to be enforced in your particular situation. Hopefully good legal advice may curtail this action being taken. Good Luck


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## Amymay (2 February 2012)

cally6008 said:



			Other income = http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_13924.html ???

(found by googling phone number)
		
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They are standing a stallion

Bloody madness.


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## Mrs C (2 February 2012)

Well that's v responsible... amass 100 horses that are 'not saleable or rehomeable' then breed some more!! If that is the case of course...


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## 3bh (2 February 2012)

rhino said:



			If they are not being ridden there would be NO NEED to have a Riding Establishment Licence anyway 

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Not necessarily, it all comes down to hire and reward - I know in my area there are companies who provide ponies for kids parties even for just grooming and petting need a council licence. 

Also - re the shelter, it might be down to interpretation by the inspecting officer but again in this area a good hedge bank or tree line available on all 4 sides for shelter is acceptable.


ETA I haven't read all the replies and think this is probably now not entirely relevant to the way the thread is going!! Glad to see I'm not just the only naturally suspicious HHOer!


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## flyingfeet (2 February 2012)

Am I the only one thinking that this is just funding someone's lifestyle?

To "loan" horses, have liveries and a stallion at stud - it's a business in my view. They are not a registered charity and are behaving like a business

Also the £50,000 to shoot the horses is codswallop - just book them in at the abattoir and get more money... harsh but technically correct

Whilst I am pleased there are people that will take ponies in, you need to do this properly and with governance.

I can see the councils point and you should be paying business rates.


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## Amymay (2 February 2012)

Jen_Cots said:



			Am I the only one thinking that this is just funding someone's lifestyle?

To "loan" horses, have liveries and a stallion at stud - it's a business in my view. They are not a registered charity and are behaving like a business

Also the £50,000 to shoot the horses is codswallop - just book them in at the abattoir and get more money... harsh but technically correct

Whilst I am pleased there are people that will take ponies in, you need to do this properly and with governance.

I can see the councils point and you should be paying business rates.
		
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100% agree with you.


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## AdorableAlice (2 February 2012)

Good legal advice to any member of the public who is paying money to ride a horse belonging to somebody else is to ensure the premises and horses therein are fully licensed under The Riding Establishment Act and that Public Liability Insurance is in place and current.

The exception to this advice are horses that are in a share or loan agreement with the agreement signed by all parties concerned.  In this situation an equine insurance policy should be in place to cover injury and accidents to those people and equines involved.

I have no doubt there are way's round the OP continuing to 'trade', but should any of her 'mums' break their back in a fall from one of the OP's horses for which the OP is receiving monetary gain from for providing that horse, I sincerely hope the injured person has good legal advice because they will certainly need it.

Smart stallion, there is a lot more than meets the eye here and it's little wonder the premises is being looked at.


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## cally6008 (2 February 2012)

OP has replied here this morning - http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=513025


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## rhino (2 February 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			Smart stallion, there is a lot more than meets the eye here and it's little wonder the premises is being looked at.
		
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Do you know the stallion or are you judging on the basis on the one photo and his stud advert? All I see is yet another unregistered, ungraded chunky coloured with no registered breeding and questionable conformation (only going from the one poor photo which may not be a true representation... and generally I like to know the stallion has legs). No competition record or much information given at all. He is worth standing at stud how?!


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## charlie76 (2 February 2012)

http://www.fraudwatchers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49808

http://exposeliars.com/intforum/?p=22710

http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.co...mps-horse-rescue-scam-halifax-west-b9679.html

hmmmmm


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## rhino (2 February 2012)

charlie76 said:



http://www.fraudwatchers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49808

http://exposeliars.com/intforum/?p=22710

http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.co...mps-horse-rescue-scam-halifax-west-b9679.html

hmmmmm
		
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Don't think it's the same place, the OP's centre is in Stratford-upon-Avon not West Yorks. 'Friends of Champ' not 'Little Champs'.


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## Tinsel Trouble (2 February 2012)

charlie76 said:



http://www.fraudwatchers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49808

http://exposeliars.com/intforum/?p=22710

http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.co...mps-horse-rescue-scam-halifax-west-b9679.html

hmmmmm
		
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If you look at the link that was posted several places above this then you will see that Spooky has a bit of a grudge against the farm. I am not sure this information is helping Spooky achieve his aim- lots of people seemed to jump to defend  the 'charity'. 

Personally I am still sitting on the bench with this- it seems like a woman whose idea of helping these horses is to hoard them and keep them with her, and she doesn't seem to see the council's point of view about licencing and registration. She also seems a little over emotional about the whole 'charity' thing!! Having worked for one- you have to be ruthless, and you have to work towards the mission statement- not keep animals and use rough, unregistered (possibly) untested stallions to boost revenue!!


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## AdorableAlice (2 February 2012)

rhino said:



			Do you know the stallion or are you judging on the basis on the one photo and his stud advert? All I see is yet another unregistered, ungraded chunky coloured with no registered breeding and questionable conformation (only going from the one poor photo which may not be a true representation... and generally I like to know the stallion has legs). No competition record or much information given at all. He is worth standing at stud how?!  

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I don't know the horse and I hate coloureds.  The poor picture shows a short backed cob with substance and a decent neck set and gullet with  not too course a head, limbs difficult to see I agree and perhaps smart is not the right word to have used, but if you were after trying to breed a cob he might be worth a look at.  Cob breeding is all guess work and luck unless they are Welsh of course.  There is a big difference between breeding competition horses and happy hacking cobs.

As far as registration is concerned other than CHAPS or Irish Cob Society where else is there to register a coloured horse.  They are mongrels but a large number of them are much loved, safe family friends whose highest achievement will be winning the local handy pony class, and from what I can see in the current market it is these cobs that are fetching more money than a potential competition horse.  

As I mentioned in previous posts it is not surprising the authorites are looking at the premises in Stratford, although it now seems the stallion is not based there.


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## FionaM12 (2 February 2012)

It's very frustrating that OP doesn't come back and explain themselves further! Especially as they've since strated a new thread. She could perhaps clear up some of the speculation at least...


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## rhino (2 February 2012)

She's replying on the other thread saying she doesn't have a stallion  I'd be a bit worried if someone has a stud advert with my name and my number on it...


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## Tinsel Trouble (2 February 2012)

rhino said:



			She's replying on the other thread saying she doesn't have a stallion  I'd be a bit worried if someone has a stud advert with my name and my number on it...
		
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I'm on tenterhooks over the Stable yard post! One clever cookie has slam-dunked the OP with actual evidence about the website, stallion ad and contact details...!!

Now i'm on the edge of my seat waiting for the next response from Champion... I need popcorn!!


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## cally6008 (2 February 2012)

Moi


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## Tinsel Trouble (2 February 2012)

cally6008 said:



			Moi 

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Oh yes it is you!!! You're a super-star-sleuth!! Nice work!!

can we make her reply now? I think i'm going to burst!!


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## Bikerchickone (2 February 2012)

Nice Slam dunk Cally! I'm in need of popcorn too!! Wonder if she'll have the nerve to reply??


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## s4sugar (2 February 2012)

Just saved the stallion advert page - especially the bit "Every mare covered since Oct (10) has taken on first try, can`t comment on anything prior. We have been told he always throws a coloured foal but no foals of my own yet so again, can`t comment! We will post photo`s as and when!"

Mares covered since October? Who covers mares for winter foals?


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## SamanthaUK (2 February 2012)

This is a most amusing thread...


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## Temptation (2 February 2012)

SamanthaUK ... Agreed!


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## SamanthaUK (2 February 2012)

Temptation said:



			SamanthaUK ... Agreed! 

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Haha! just casually being reading through everything and now i'm quite kiddy! Want the OP to get their BUMS back here and explaaaiiin! :')


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## Moomin1 (2 February 2012)

Urrgh I come across so many of these 'charities' and 'rescues' in my line of work and usually end up having to pick up the pieces when the public finally see the light and see where there well intentioned donations go.  Majority of the time they certainly don't end up paying for nice clean bedding and correct feeding/farrier/vets etc.  Sounds very much like this is a sham of a place and the horses are probably stood in ten different levels of **** in tiny dingey dark stables with mouldy hay trampled on the floor!

Sorry for my scepticism!!  OP you should be disgusted with yourself if the findings of others on this thread are correct.  Then again, my guess is that you won't give a damn!!!


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## SamanthaUK (2 February 2012)

I'm thinking this is a money grabbing, lying, troll..

OP, Come back here. LET'S TALK!


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## mulledwhine (2 February 2012)

BINGO !!!! Well done x


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## FionaM12 (2 February 2012)

There's a Facebook page for Friends of Champ too. 

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/profile.php?id=100002282178601


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## Moomin1 (2 February 2012)

Have a careful look through the album 'mobile uploads' and I think you will find Hairn Airstodare running with a field of mares!!! 

NB amount of foals (coloured ) too!


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## Moomin1 (2 February 2012)

Photo added August 2011.  My guess is she's breeding from her own horses!!!


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## FionaM12 (2 February 2012)

There do seem to be a lot of foal photos. Weird for a rescue centre.


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## Paris1 (2 February 2012)

Rescuing horses that are due to go for meat. Is it just me but sometimes would it be better for horses to go for meat than be 'rescued' by people who haven't a clue or the money to look after them? 
A 15 year old posted on a local forum that she was off to resue soem horses before they were bought by the meat man. A 'charity' in the making?


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## Jazzy B (2 February 2012)

more popcorn, interesting thread, and good point Paris1!


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## Moomin1 (2 February 2012)

...Mmm yes, the usual scenario in the photo's too... fields full of rusty old cars and lorry carriages, surrounded by barbed wire and chicken wire fencing, with foals scattered all around!!  'Sanctuary' my arse!!!  Instead of breeding shed loads of dobbins she should invest a bit more of the publics kindly donated money into proper safe fencing and removing all the trash lying around in the horse's fields!


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## rhino (2 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			...Mmm yes, the usual scenario in the photo's too... fields full of rusty old cars and lorry carriages, surrounded by barbed wire and chicken wire fencing, with foals scattered all around!!  'Sanctuary' my arse!!!  Instead of breeding shed loads of dobbins she should invest a bit more of the publics kindly donated money into proper safe fencing and removing all the trash lying around in the horse's fields!

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Did you notice they had enough money last year to have a new arena surface and fencing put in?


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## Moomin1 (2 February 2012)

rhino said:



			Did you notice they had enough money last year to have a new arena surface and fencing put in? 

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Yes I also noticed that they have designated a 'car park' area and a tack room full of saddles and bridles.  Mmm, not sure where the council can see the similarity to a riding establishment, can you?!!!  

I particularly like the photos of all the vet bills she has had in.  Very responsible of her to get the vet, probably after one of her many foals produced by Hairn Airstodare has got entwined in a shoddy piece of car bumper or hung itself on a length of twine which has been left trailing all over the field from the bales.  It also appears that under many of these photo's there seems to be a 'begging' comment asking for other people to send cheques in etc asap!


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## SamanthaUK (2 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Yes I also noticed that they have designated a 'car park' area and a tack room full of saddles and bridles.  Mmm, not sure where the council can see the similarity to a riding establishment, can you?!!!
		
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Ha! :}


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## Amymay (2 February 2012)

All very, very sad.


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## Bikerchickone (2 February 2012)

Well at least now we all know where to send all the money we've been donating to the RSPCA lately....


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## champion44 (2 February 2012)

marydoll said:



			Im kinda getting the same feelings as TT from this post, if im wrong please accept my apologies, but it sounds like youve never kept yourself up to date with the required legislation, or found out about the legal ramifications  of diversifying to pay costs. While the prospect of running a sanctuary is very noble, the reality of whats happening to you highlights why you must know what youre doing.
		
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I cannot find anywhere to do replies, so am putting one on here, I am totally blown away by all the bitterness on here!!!  why?  I do not   sell horses, I do rescue horses. yes we have foals, last year we bought a lovely young mare with bad scarring who had been sold for meat, she later produced a beautifu;ll foal, both would have died, if I can manage it they will stay with me for their whole lives. yes we rent fields at the back of a scrapyard, beautifull 200acres with a river running through it, we make no profits of any sort...we have NO welfare issues, all the horses passed the vet,  I WANT to be within the law, I think it is right that we are, I just don't know how to go about it, why is everyone SO determind to be horrid, what did I ever to to you? don't bother to [post, I won't be coming back!!!! Friends of Champ


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## champion44 (2 February 2012)

oh and I can't find the photo's but make up your minds we either have loads of money for new school and posh fencing or we are a dump full of barbed wire...you can't have it both ways


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## overtherainbow (2 February 2012)

champion44 said:



			oh and I can't find the photo's but make up your minds we either have loads of money for new school and posh fencing or we are a dump full of barbed wire...you can't have it both ways
		
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yes you could (and i havent seen the photos) but it would just show your priorities were in the wrong place


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## Holly Hocks (2 February 2012)

Whatever the circumstances of this place, I am seriously concerned by the obnoxious replies the OP has received.  Good job you're all whiter than white and so bloody perfect!  Maybe the OP isn't and hasn't done things as she should, but there is no need for some of the replies.


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## Marydoll (2 February 2012)

Coming back on here screaming at folks .... way to go op,  mabe you shouldve found out about how to do things before you found yourself in the mess youre in.


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## The-mad-cat-lady (2 February 2012)

Breeding from a stallion just because you thought he was "handsome" 
( read ops replies on stableyard thread for further details )


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## angelish (2 February 2012)

right ive sat on my hands long enough 

why rescue/buy horses if you cannot afford to care for them yourself, expecting "donations" from the public to pay YOUR bills 
if YOU buy a horse you should not expect other people to pay its keep 
if you genuinely want to set up a rescue center do it properly ,stop using these rescue horse to make you money by hiring them out as you are doing 

i'm not at all sorry if that comes across as harsh, i have been ripped off/sucked in by a "rescue" center such as yours in the past ,in fact that is were my horse came from would anyone care to donate a few quid towards his care ?

stop trying to rip people off by begging for money for a so called rescue center ,if you want to open a riding school or use your horses as riding school horses do what everyone else has to do and complete the paper work ,spend the money and sort it out


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## mightymammoth (2 February 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			Whatever the circumstances of this place, I am seriously concerned by the obnoxious replies the OP has received.  Good job you're all whiter than white and so bloody perfect!  Maybe the OP isn't and hasn't done things as she should, but there is no need for some of the replies.
		
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^^I agree


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## Serenity087 (2 February 2012)

Anyone else notice the huge number of puppies floating around too?

*has major disliking for people who breed for the sake of an animal having working reproductive organs*


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## Holly Hocks (2 February 2012)

Serenity087 said:



			*has major disliking for people who breed for the sake of an animal having working reproductive organs*
		
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I know plenty of people who breed because they can, and breed substandard poor excuses for human beings....do you think we can impose our wants for the horse breeding world onto humans and stop producing bunches of throwbacks? LOL!!


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## mightymammoth (2 February 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			I know plenty of people who breed because they can, and breed substandard poor excuses for human beings....do you think we can impose our wants for the horse breeding world onto humans and stop producing bunches of throwbacks? LOL!!
		
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what a great idea HH


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## vienna (2 February 2012)

I think I know why people are annoyed. There is a recession on in the county and lots of us feel it. People, at least responsible ones go without lots of things to own their horses and do not expect charity or hand outs, and importantly agree that it is better to pts a horse a day to early than a day to late.
You  are perpetuating the cycle of unwanted horses by advertsing a stallion to stud. You clearly have a bad repuation and are giving the idea of charity a bad name.

I see the cycle of back yard breeding horses as following suit of america, these social problems and where animals are concerned should be brought to an end.

Fact is this superfluous populaion of horses is benefiting your own pocket.


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## s4sugar (2 February 2012)

Another gem from Google;-
http://www.farmproperty.net/51014.htm

So 120 horses not 100?


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## mountainview22 (3 February 2012)

That was nearly a year ago mind....

I don't understand, it says it all there, my local RS used to host a one day version of  OP's business, it was own a pony day....with insurance and tack provided.

on the other hand I don't see how she's had new fencing and a school yet has barbed wire and rusty fencing... Maybe just me.

Also, OP, I am not of the traveller nature, BUT, if you'd like all scrap cars etc removed I'd be willing to do this... For free 
Bugger pleading poverty when you have 200acres strewn with scrap metal...


There's my piece, tbh no matter what we say it's falling on dead ears so let's all go have a pint, be a better use of time and money for that matter.


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## TB135 (3 February 2012)

Has no-one here even considered how little you actually know about this place? I've just sat here and read through the whole thread, and honestly, I am disgusted! Please stop making assumptions about a place you really do know nothing about. I know for a fact that the stallion mentioned earlier on has been gelded, a year ago plus. Those links to websites about 'little champs' are nothng do do with friends of champ. The fields of friends of champ are not littered with scrap metal, neither do they breed horses. You seem to forget that they are in fact a recue centre, and some horses rescued may be pregnant mares, as the OP stated, it is possible to rescue a mare not knowing she was newly pregnant. Some horses at friends of champ are also other people's horses who have sent them there because funnily enoug, they know they will be cared for properly. And hey you guessed it, some of those may be pregnant mares! As for one comment I saw about puppies... what does that even have to do with this yard?
Asking people to kindly keep their noses out of this please, the OP was just asking for HELP, she was not asking to be slated by people who don't even know the situation.


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## Clippy (3 February 2012)

TB135 said:



			Has no-one here even considered how little you actually know about this place? I've just sat here and read through the whole thread, and honestly, I am disgusted! Please stop making assumptions about a place you really do know nothing about. I know for a fact that the stallion mentioned earlier on has been gelded, a year ago plus. Those links to websites about 'little champs' are nothng do do with friends of champ. The fields of friends of champ are not littered with scrap metal, neither do they breed horses. You seem to forget that they are in fact a recue centre, and some horses rescued may be pregnant mares, as the OP stated, it is possible to rescue a mare not knowing she was newly pregnant. Some horses at friends of champ are also other people's horses who have sent them there because funnily enoug, they know they will be cared for properly. And hey you guessed it, some of those may be pregnant mares! As for one comment I saw about puppies... what does that even have to do with this yard?
Asking people to kindly keep their noses out of this please, the OP was just asking for HELP, she was not asking to be slated by people who don't even know the situation.
		
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Welcome to the forum!

Some of the points made are very valid though. Keeping 100 horses is a HUGE task, even if they do live out and it does sound very much like a business. A stallion WAS used on the OP's mares as well as advertised to public stud. Yes. he may now be a gelding, but it does rather give the impression of either generating income or indescriminate breeding.

People on this forum tend not to take things at face value and there are some very good diggers, so don't be surprised to be pulled up on things you fail to mention here


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## Tinsel Trouble (3 February 2012)

TB135 said:



			Has no-one here even considered how little you actually know about this place? ...Asking people to kindly keep their noses out of this please, the OP was just asking for HELP, she was not asking to be slated by people who don't even know the situation.
		
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Hi TB135- when Champion44 asked for our advise on what the council was requesting then we asked for more information on the ins and outs of her 'business/ charity/ place' to be able to advise her further. This was not forthcoming so we did our own research.

We found out that two horses had escaped and got into the river and one had drowned. We found out that she was breeding from a common coloured cob. We found out she does not have charitable status. We found out that there is scrap in the fields and rusted barbed wire fences. We found out that there is indiscriminate breeding of puppies on the yard. 

We have also found out that lots of people got their first oportunity to 'own' a horse at this establishment, and it is obvious that the OP cares for all animals that come to her. This caring must be tempered with common sense. Breeding poor quality foals is not good business sense- let alone horse sense!

It seems to us that places like the WHW, or Redwings have spot perfect facilities- this actually encourages us to part with our hard earned money and to earn our respect for the work they do!

Maybe the OP could take some advise and bring the place up to scratch to visibly match the amount of effort she seems to put into the facility!


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## Amymay (3 February 2012)

OP, just had a good old nosey on your FB page.  Some lovely looking horses.  Quite a few foals born last year??  Hopefully you've stopped breeding now, and really have had your stallion cut.

I think bottom line is you are an establishment that collects horses (and yes probably in need), and funds their keep by running an unofficial riding establishment - hence why the council are chasing you.

So you're going to have to stump up with the money.  Rhino has given you some great links at the start of this thread - and hopefully now you're in a position to research a little more, get your house in order and move forward.

You're not quite as niaive in terms of business as your original post would make out - I suspect you're very savvy......., but have now fallen foul of the authorities.

I really do wish you the best of luck with your venture (and stop breeding).


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## Marydoll (3 February 2012)

Clippy said:



			Welcome to the forum!

Some of the points made are very valid though. Keeping 100 horses is a HUGE task, even if they do live out and it does sound very much like a business. A stallion WAS used on the OP's mares as well as advertised to public stud. Yes. he may now be a gelding, but it does rather give the impression of either generating income or indescriminate breeding.

People on this forum tend not to take things at face value and there are some very good diggers, so don't be surprised to be pulled up on things you fail to mention here 

Click to expand...

Agreed, in general if youre needing help forum members are great, but if they think theres even the slightest chance theyre being taken for a ride theyre not long in finding out. OP said she only wanted to be within the law, the council officals can tell her how to do that, she was looking at how she could get more money to let her do it, she's already using some of the horses to do this, by effectively renting them out to people which seems to be why she's in the pickle she's in now, but nobody can find the place as a registered charity !!!!! 
Is it a registered charity ?????
After reading this thread and seeing how the place has been funded, i can quite understand why some people have drawn the conclusions they have.
If you were an outsider looking in you would have alarm bells ringing as well


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## Wagtail (3 February 2012)

TB135 said:



			Has no-one here even considered how little you actually know about this place? I've just sat here and read through the whole thread, and honestly, I am disgusted! Please stop making assumptions about a place you really do know nothing about. I know for a fact that the stallion mentioned earlier on has been gelded, a year ago plus. Those links to websites about 'little champs' are nothng do do with friends of champ. The fields of friends of champ are not littered with scrap metal, neither do they breed horses. You seem to forget that they are in fact a recue centre, and some horses rescued may be pregnant mares, as the OP stated, it is possible to rescue a mare not knowing she was newly pregnant. Some horses at friends of champ are also other people's horses who have sent them there because funnily enoug, they know they will be cared for properly. And hey you guessed it, some of those may be pregnant mares! As for one comment I saw about puppies... what does that even have to do with this yard?
Asking people to kindly keep their noses out of this please, the OP was just asking for HELP, she was not asking to be slated by people who don't even know the situation.
		
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This! I cannot believe how vindictive and bitchy this forum can be sometimes.


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## Square (3 February 2012)

where is this puppy breeding thing coming from? Can someone show me a link to this please? 



There isn't any cars/scrap metal in the fields I was there last year and walked them.

can someone send me links to all the places you have found these photos from I want to see if it is Friends of Champ or not. 

BTW I'm not looking for an arguement I just want to see this proof you have found.

Thanks
Square


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## ester (3 February 2012)

TB135 said:



			Those links to websites about 'little champs' are nothng do do with friends of champ.
		
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why are there pictures of the same coloured cob on the fb page that was linked then as was pictured on stallions online



http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.114342448651827.27533.100002282178601&type=3

^^ square that is one of the links having been given and I think is the one referring to the foals and puppies, I haven't spotted the scrap metal on that link but not looked at all the pics


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## lq22 (3 February 2012)

Square said:



			where is this puppy breeding thing coming from? Can someone show me a link to this please? 



There isn't any cars/scrap metal in the fields I was there last year and walked them.

can someone send me links to all the places you have found these photos from I want to see if it is Friends of Champ or not. 

BTW I'm not looking for an arguement I just want to see this proof you have found.

Thanks
Square
		
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From what i've seen i think there may be some confusion with regards to puppy breeding. I think Penny has an acqaintance who breeds puppies (in a manner which i do not approve of from first impressions). I have come to this conclusion from lookng at the facebook page for 'friends of champ' http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002282178601#!/profile.php?id=100002282178601&sk=info

A further concern from others on the forum is the advertisment of a stallion for stud (of unknown breeding) using contact details for a Penny Tubbs who has the same mobile number as advertised on the website for the 'sanctuary'.

http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_13924.html

http://friendsofchamp.co.uk/default.aspx


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## ester (3 February 2012)

yup puppy pics are in the other album

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.151646091588129.41194.100002282178601&type=3


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## lq22 (3 February 2012)

ester said:



			yup puppy pics are in the other album

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.151646091588129.41194.100002282178601&type=3

Click to expand...

I did look through that but the (of course this may not be true) comment said they were a man named jim's puppies

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...91588129.41194.100002282178601&type=3&theater


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## Amymay (3 February 2012)

Square said:



			where is this puppy breeding thing coming from? Can someone show me a link to this please? 

There isn't any cars/scrap metal in the fields I was there last year and walked them.

can someone send me links to all the places you have found these photos from I want to see if it is Friends of Champ or not.
		
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http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...48651827.27533.100002282178601&type=3&theater

I don't know about puppy breeding, but there are plenty of puppy photos in the same album.


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## ester (3 February 2012)

ah well spotted lq22 thanks for pointing that out.


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## Square (3 February 2012)

Thanks for the links, will check them out now


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## Square (3 February 2012)

Ok, Had a look through I found one photo of a foal with old cars in the background and agree, they should be removed from the field or be fenced off, so the horses cannot get near them. 

The puppies have nothing to do with friends of champ, the facebook page is probably made by one of the girls who loans from friends of champ who has added those photo's in un-necessarily.

I know they get a lot of cases of taking on mares and then finding out that these mares are pregnant after.  

Personally dont like the barbed wire fencing but people do use it. Never heard of one getting hurt from it.


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## touchstone (3 February 2012)

I think it was also stated that she wanted to take all the puppies  home but wouldn't as they'd only be replaced with others?

To be fair to the op, although I don't condone breeding, (especially when you are in the business of rescuing and can see what happens when things go wrong,) the horses do look well cared for and I hope that she makes a success of managing to work things out with the licensing.  I haven't seen the bad fencing, but one photo of a horse eating acorns  

I hope that things work out well with the OP, but also that she is careful not to become the rescuer that needs rescuing, perhaps limiting the number of horses in her care.


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## jokadoka (3 February 2012)

champion44 said:



			I cannot find anywhere to do replies, so am putting one on here, I am totally blown away by all the bitterness on here!!!  why?  I do not   sell horses, I do rescue horses. yes we have foals, last year we bought a lovely young mare with bad scarring who had been sold for meat, she later produced a beautifu;ll foal, both would have died, if I can manage it they will stay with me for their whole lives. yes we rent fields at the back of a scrapyard, beautifull 200acres with a river running through it, we make no profits of any sort...we have NO welfare issues, all the horses passed the vet,  I WANT to be within the law, I think it is right that we are, I just don't know how to go about it, why is everyone SO determind to be horrid, what did I ever to to you? don't bother to [post, I won't be coming back!!!! Friends of Champ
		
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Why would you go and buy a mare that was sold for meat?
Most  (and I know there are exceptions, before people jump on me!) horses going for meat, go for a reason....
Quote  "If I can manage it, they will stay with me for their whole lives", unquote.
Would it not be more sensible to find long term homes for your "rescues", specifically youngstock, as you seem to be committing yourself to a time span of many years to these foals born out of "rescue" mares.
That way you can keep the numbers down and cope better financially surely.

As far as the council goes, I'm with them. You are hiring out horses to ride, therefore...


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## nikicb (3 February 2012)

amymay said:



			OP, just had a good old nosey on your FB page.  Some lovely looking horses.  Quite a few foals born last year??  Hopefully you've stopped breeding now, and really have had your stallion cut.

I think bottom line is you are an establishment that collects horses (and yes probably in need), and funds their keep by running an unofficial riding establishment - hence why the council are chasing you.

So you're going to have to stump up with the money.  Rhino has given you some great links at the start of this thread - and hopefully now you're in a position to research a little more, get your house in order and move forward.

You're not quite as niaive in terms of business as your original post would make out - I suspect you're very savvy......., but have now fallen foul of the authorities.

I really do wish you the best of luck with your venture (and stop breeding).
		
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I think this sums up the situation perfectly.  The riding school I learnt (virtually lived) at as a child in the 70s was probably not dissimilar and sailed very close to the wind on most  regulatory issues.  BUT the horses were all loved and cared for and gave a lot of pleasure to a lot of children who otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity.  Certainly looking through the facebook page I can see that you and your clients/volunteers really do care about the horses.  And I was interested to read the requests you made to see insurance for all your loaners to comply with council requirements.

Sadly however life moves on and there are many more legal requirements for running these sort of establishments.  The fall out from this is that many places have had to close resulting in financial hardship for those involved and more and more horses without places to call home.  I hope this doesn't happen to you, and that you will be able to work out how to comply with the regulations.


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## Marydoll (3 February 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			Whatever the circumstances of this place, I am seriously concerned by the obnoxious replies the OP has received.  Good job you're all whiter than white and so bloody perfect!  Maybe the OP isn't and hasn't done things as she should, but there is no need for some of the replies.
		
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I agree some of the posts have been harsh, but if youre taking money from people in this way you need to be whiter than white and completely transparent in what youre doing, this thread is the result of what happens when you get it wrong.


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## Moomin1 (3 February 2012)

Square said:



			Ok, Had a look through I found one photo of a foal with old cars in the background and agree, they should be removed from the field or be fenced off, so the horses cannot get near them. 

The puppies have nothing to do with friends of champ, the facebook page is probably made by one of the girls who loans from friends of champ who has added those photo's in un-necessarily.

I know they get a lot of cases of taking on mares and then finding out that these mares are pregnant after.  

Personally dont like the barbed wire fencing but people do use it. Never heard of one getting hurt from it.
		
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I have!!!  SERIOUSLY injured foal completely entwined in the exact same fencing as OP has.  Off hind with bone protruding and a seriously ill foal resulted.  Completely unnecessary, not meeting the animal's needs and therefore an offence.  That offence caused unnecessary suffering.  I know people do use it, but for a 'charity' with very young foals wandering around that are now saying they can't afford to keep them then it's not acceptable.  Had they taken on less 'rescues' (though I personally don't class horses going for meat as rescues unless they are being transported illegally and inadequately or slaughtered  inhumanely) and concentrated more on providing the correct and appropriate conditions for a smaller amount of horses then they wouldn't find themselves in this unfortunate situation.


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## rhino (3 February 2012)

TB135 said:



			I know for a fact that the stallion mentioned earlier on has been gelded, a year ago plus.
		
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Yet on his advert is clearly states




			Every mare covered since Oct (10) has taken on first try
		
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As you don't cover mares in the winter that suggests to me he was at stud for at least part of the last stud season.. So he could not have been castrated over a year ago 

Plus OP mentioned castrating him in his 'late teens', well he is only 17 now  Can you see why things are not adding up for us?


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## TB135 (3 February 2012)

jokadoka said:



			Why would you go and buy a mare that was sold for meat?
Most  (and I know there are exceptions, before people jump on me!) horses going for meat, go for a reason....
		
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I know this mare, and she is wonderful! Horses that are sold for meat definitely do not 'go for a reason'. I suspect that the only reason this mare in particular was going for meat was because she has very bold scarring on both sides which is extremely noticeable. Apart from those which are purely cosmetic, she is wonderful to ride and a fantastic jumper.


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## TB135 (3 February 2012)

rhino said:



			Yet on his advert is clearly states



As you don't cover mares in the winter that suggests to me he was at stud for at least part of the last stud season.. So he could not have been castrated over a year ago 

Plus OP mentioned castrating him in his 'late teens', well he is only 17 now  Can you see why things are not adding up for us?
		
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Yes, I can see why things are not adding up for you. But I assure you, he has been gelded. I didn't even know he was online, I have never heard anything about anyone actually using him for breeding... yes, he used to be a stallion, but he isn't any more, because they did not want to breed from him.


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## *hic* (3 February 2012)

In most cases they do have a reason. My fantastic jumping pony was going for meat if I didn't have him. He's a bolter and can be damned dangerous.


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## *hic* (3 February 2012)

TB135 said:



			Yes, I can see why things are not adding up for you. But I assure you, he has been gelded. I didn't even know he was online, I have never heard anything about anyone actually using him for breeding... yes, he used to be a stallion, but he isn't any more, because they did not want to breed from him.
		
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Why was he advertised as a breeding stallion then?


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## Moomin1 (3 February 2012)

Dee O'Dorant said:



			Why was he advertised as a breeding stallion then?
		
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Agree!  OP you must be a born liar or someone has used your name fraudulently then.  I would get on to the police sharpish in your case then if what you say is true because someone has used your name to advertise him as a breeding stallion!!! Oh and you did mention in one of your posts that you took him on and thought it would be a good money maker to use him to cover mares?!!!  Your stories are falling apart OP.


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## TB135 (3 February 2012)

Dee O'Dorant said:



			Why was he advertised as a breeding stallion then?
		
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I'm assuming that at one point someone did want to breed from him, but clearly they aren't any more?


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## TB135 (3 February 2012)

Just going to point out to everyone who has said things about this yard having 'scrap metal, scrap cars and dangerous fencing' etc. - there was an inspection done there end of December, and they passed. If the place was in a bad state, it would not have passed, would it?


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## ester (3 February 2012)

after a big tidy up by the sounds of it on the fb page. 

and even if people wanted to use her rescue stallion the op should have said no and always said no, not advertised him.


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## s4sugar (3 February 2012)

TB135 said:



			Just going to point out to everyone who has said things about this yard having 'scrap metal, scrap cars and dangerous fencing' etc. - there was an inspection done there end of December, and they passed. If the place was in a bad state, it would not have passed, would it?
		
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What was it inspected for?
Licensing runs January to December so a December inspection is unusual. 
Was this H&S or fire safety?
If there were no horses in the paddock with the scrap then it would not have counted & I've yet to see an inspector walk a entire property.


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## ester (3 February 2012)

from what I can gather it was the vet inspection for the horses (they all had to be got ready, tack cleaned etc.) but whether there was anything else involved I don't know. 

loaners seem to have their own rider insurance as that was asked to be provided too.


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## s4sugar (3 February 2012)

A vet inspection of the horses would not involve the surroundings unless immediately apparent -I'm not joking as I have seen horses tied to sagging barbed wire.

Not seen any mention of planning permission.


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## rhino (3 February 2012)

s4sugar said:



			What was it inspected for?
Licensing runs January to December so a December inspection is unusual. 
Was this H&S or fire safety?
		
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Riding establishment inspections can be carried out at any time of year, I spent 18 months working for the equine vet in charge of the licenses for that particular authority and we did them year round  The vet can check all the fields but doesn't always, in my experience 

For anyone who hasn't been involved in one, it is a relatively simple procedure. All ridden horses (young, old, retired etc. need to have their numbers recorded but are not inspected individually) are trotted up and then checked in a stable for eyes, heart. It is NOT a vetting and only takes a few minutes per animal. Tack is inspected (we usually had to tack up a few of the horses but not all). First aid kits (horse and human) are inspected. Fire extinguishers/notices are checked. Comprehensive insurance must be in place and will be checked. The HSE poster must be displayed, as do the contact details in case of emergency. Records of farriery and worming should also be produced for the vet to check.

Housing for the animals will be briefly checked, as will the grazing facilities.


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## icklemee (3 February 2012)

I have experience of this place and I just want to say that there was no breeding of any kind, horses or dogs. The only foals were from mares who arrived already pregnant. As for profiteering, I'd be absolutely amazed if anything was left over after paying vets/feeds/wormers etc.  There were no fancy arena flooring as suggested by someone who obviously has a problem with this place.  I understand some of us have drawn conclusions from things that have been posted throughout the thread but really it is exactly as explained at the very beginning.  There is just no way that there was ever any funds left over after keeping the animals.


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## rhino (3 February 2012)

icklemee said:



			There were no fancy arena flooring as suggested by someone who obviously has a problem with this place.
		
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That was me who mentioned that. I had never even heard of the place before OP posted so please don't suggest I have a problem with it. There are clearly labelled photos on the facebook page, including the one from 23/6/11 with the 'new woodchip' in the arena.


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## ester (3 February 2012)

icklemee I don't think anyone is suggesting that the op is making money out of this venture! more that it is likely being done in the best of intentions but that perhaps doesn't come out in practice


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## Moomin1 (3 February 2012)

Rhino, from what I see on the fb site, those who have questioned any 'issues' at this 'rescue' have been gunned down by the posse of young supporters (from what I can read of the poor grammar and spelling!) who automatically accuse said concerned person of 'having a problem and bitching about the place'.  One poor owner who sent her horse there for a few months ended up with a dead horse - guess what from?!!!  Oh, yes, colic!!!!!!!  OP seems to be only answering certain comments from this thread, and doesn't appear to be explaining why she thinks it is acceptable for 'loads' of acorns to be in the fields of 'rescued' horses who owners have given to her 'believing they will end their days happily'.  More likely end their days with liver failure/colic/diarrhoea.

I fully imagine that the fb group will miraculously disappear from public view very shortly.  Oh there is also a profile on bebo where someone comments (again in the usual txt spk, wot da fck da ya meen? type way) that OP does great work and she just gets slagged off and shot down for it.  Seems to me this place is rife with trouble.


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## icklemee (3 February 2012)

With the best intentions yes, there were comments earlier on from other users to suggest that


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## rhino (3 February 2012)

icklemee said:



			With the best intentions yes, there were comments earlier on from other users to suggest that
		
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Sorry, not sure if that was directed at me or not. The photo upload/description was by 'Champion Tubbs' so either the owner or someone with admin rights. Not from 'other' users


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## rockysmum (3 February 2012)

We spend a lot of time on here complaining because the authorities dont deal with issues.  It seems that in this case they actually are doing something.

I've said before there is a similar rescue place near here that I sincerely wish someone would shut down.  They offer riding lessons and shares too.

I'm voting in favour of the council and would totally disagree with anyone on here giving advice on how to get round the laws.  The rules are there to protect horses and the public.

So OP, you need to choose whether you are going to become a charity or a riding school, but whichever it is, do it properly and people on here will support you.


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## Marydoll (3 February 2012)

rockysmum said:



			We spend a lot of time on here complaining because the authorities dont deal with issues.  It seems that in this case they actually are doing something.

I've said before there is a similar rescue place near here that I sincerely wish someone would shut down.  They offer riding lessons and shares too.

I'm voting in favour of the council and would totally disagree with anyone on here giving advice on how to get round the laws.  The rules are there to protect horses and the public.

So OP, you need to choose whether you are going to become a charity or a riding school, but whichever it is, do it properly and people on here will support you.
		
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Agree


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## Bikerchickone (3 February 2012)

rockysmum said:



			We spend a lot of time on here complaining because the authorities dont deal with issues.  It seems that in this case they actually are doing something.

I've said before there is a similar rescue place near here that I sincerely wish someone would shut down.  They offer riding lessons and shares too.

I'm voting in favour of the council and would totally disagree with anyone on here giving advice on how to get round the laws.  The rules are there to protect horses and the public.

So OP, you need to choose whether you are going to become a charity or a riding school, but whichever it is, do it properly and people on here will support you.
		
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I've been watching this thread with great interest and have to say I agree with the above. I'm also in awe of the detective skills some of you have on here, maybe a new career in it for you? 

Joking aside though we all know horses are addictive and I'm sure we all go looking at Horseporn as I call the various horses for sale websites, however most of us are responsible enough to realise that we can only care for so many horses and do so properly. I cannot imagine how you can possibly thoroughly check each one of 120 horses every day for injury, stones in hooves etc. Even with help from 'mums'. That in itself for me is cause for concern. I'm sure it's all done to the best of your abilities and they're all well fed but imho it's unlikely that they can all be checked thoroughly. Takes me a good 5-10 mins to totally check over mine and pick out their feet, by which I mean removing rugs and cleaning legs etc to check for injury/mud fever etc. doing that for ten horses would take almost an hour so how do you do 120? 

I admit I'm especially thorough but I don't see how anyone can be otherwise. Just my opinion of course.


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## nikicb (3 February 2012)

Just copying my post on the thread in stable yard because not everyone goes in there:

I am by no means condoning everything the OP does, but if you have 100 horses, many of which are old or have other health problems, I should think you would have quite a few cases of colic per year. Also, they are showing vets bills, and also there was a picture of an EDT with one of the horses on their FB site. If there was a real welfare issue, wouldn't one of these professionals have raised it and done something about it? OK, the EDT may or may not be qualified, but if a vet was concerned about the state of the horses wouldn't they do something about it?

I think this is a lady who had all the right intentions when she started out, but is now totally overwhelmed with the situation she is in. It's quite sad really, and I don't just mean for the horses.


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## ellis9905 (3 February 2012)

so the facebook page seems to have dissapreared??


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## Moomin1 (3 February 2012)

ellis9905 said:



			so the facebook page seems to have dissapreared??
		
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As predicted.  OP's original plea for 'help and advice' has meant that she has now inadvertently exposed herself as a less than adequate establishment and any 'charity' that suddenly removes itself from public eye must have plenty to hide IMO!


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## FionaM12 (3 February 2012)

rockysmum said:



			So OP, you need to choose whether you are going to become a charity or a riding school, but whichever it is, do it properly and people on here will support you.
		
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I think this is the crucial point OP. If you're a riding establishment (as you clearly are at present) it's in everybody's interests to admit that's what you are and do it safely and legally. However if you're a charity, get yourself registered so that your charity is open and above board. 

I'm sure your intentions are good and you love your horses. Coming on here shouting hysterically that we all want to "Kill, kill, kill" your horses and over-reacting to peoples' opinions (which I agree can be a tad harsh at times) doesn't help your case though.

I hope you find a way to work with the authorities in a way which is in the best interests of all your horses.


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## FionaM12 (3 February 2012)

ellis9905 said:



			so the facebook page seems to have dissapreared??
		
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Oh that is rather sad. It gives the clear impression the place has something to hide.


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## RoobyDoobs (3 February 2012)

Errrrm... Are OP, Tb135 and Icklemee possibly all the same person???


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## TB135 (3 February 2012)

RoobyDoobs said:



			Errrrm... Are OP, Tb135 and Icklemee possibly all the same person???
		
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What on earth gave you that idea?!?


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## TB135 (3 February 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			Oh that is rather sad. It gives the clear impression the place has something to hide.
		
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It doesn't mean she has something to hide... people have been using that page to find things against the yard, personally I'm not suprised she opted to delete it...


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## Moomin1 (3 February 2012)

TB135 said:



			It doesn't mean she has something to hide... people have been using that page to find things against the yard, personally I'm not suprised she opted to delete it...
		
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Well THEY DID find things against the place!! Lol, if she has nothing to hide why the hell remove it from public view?!!  Are you seriously saying that you find it acceptable that OP allows her horses to consume lots of acorns (and yes I did see it and other people most likely did too!) and yet call herself responsible?  As for trying to defend the barbed wire issue etc - the pictures were there for all to see?!!  In one post on fb someone even said they had done the usual check around a field to make sure no horse had their feet stuck!!!


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## s4sugar (3 February 2012)

And of course no one has saved the Facebook pages?

Paranoia is another symptom of hoarding.

The only person who has ranted is the OP who is clearly running an unlicensed riding establishment.  

Everyone else has asked reasonable questions, tried to explain the regulations and of course looked at any evidence available. People here are concerned for the horses' welfare and also the safety of the poor souls contributing to a fake sanctuary.

BTW the guy with 28 dogs who is breeding mutts needs reporting as he needs a breeders licence and won't get one looking at the conditions.


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## Moomin1 (3 February 2012)

Another thing (yes, me again, sorry! ), OP says she is rushed off her feet and working so hard etc etc that she doesn't get time for a holiday etc... Explain then OP (or OP's friends on here) whether it is the responsible thing to do for so many 'loaners' to be reporting OP's horse's illnesses to her on FB.  So many comments on there saying to OP "So and so horse came in lame today, put bute in her tea", or "Such and such looked really off and wasn't eating tonight, she was sweating" (seems another common thing).  WTF can they not ring her and tell her, or given that she is so busy at the yard - go and show her?!!!!  Either these responsible people think that these symptoms are not urgent enough and that they can merely put them on fb for when she next logs on, or she spends a hell of a lot of time on fb so they know she will receive the message soon!!!


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## RoobyDoobs (3 February 2012)

TB135 said:



			What on earth gave you that idea?!?
		
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Just that this was OP's first post after joining two days ago, and yourself and Icklemee joined today and appear very knowledgeable, supportive and confident about her 'business'.  Must just be a coincidence!


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## rockysmum (3 February 2012)

TB135 said:



			What on earth gave you that idea?!?
		
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Joining the forum and only posting in support of the OP on one thread perhaps


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## RoobyDoobs (3 February 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Joining the forum and only posting in support of the OP on one thread perhaps  

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precisely RM... If you look at TB135's posts, she knows an awful lot about the OP's business!


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## TB135 (3 February 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Joining the forum and only posting in support of the OP on one thread perhaps  

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I know a lot about it because I know the OP personally, and of course I created an account to defend her because I know that she is not in the wrong in the way that people are making it seem! How can any of you, who don't know the full situation or the OP personally, possibly pass fair judgement on the place?


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## Moomin1 (3 February 2012)

TB135 said:



			I know a lot about it because I know the OP personally, and of course I created an account to defend her because I know that she is not in the wrong in the way that people are making it seem! How can any of you, who don't know the full situation or the OP personally, possibly pass fair judgement on the place?
		
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Because we are not stupid or blind.  Simples.  All OP and yourselves seem to actually be responding to and saying is that the OP is great and that we don't know the situation, and that she isn't breeding or has never had a stallion etc etc.  Not one of the other worries or concerns has been responded to.  Then again, your not obliged to.  Just seems odd that's all.  If you really want to defend OP and she is so perfect then how can you not respond about the acorns or the fencing or the riding establishment etc?!!


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## rockysmum (3 February 2012)

TB135 said:



			I know a lot about it because I know the OP personally, and of course I created an account to defend her because I know that she is not in the wrong in the way that people are making it seem! How can any of you, who don't know the full situation or the OP personally, possibly pass fair judgement on the place?
		
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In which case you can hardly expect anyone to value your opinion, you are hardly unbiased.

If people come on here with a business, charity or whatever which is easily traced on the internet they should expect people to do some research.  I have also seen the facebook page, what do you expect a forum full of horse professionals and horse lovers to think about some of the things posted on there.

The OP made a serious error of judgement coming on here for advice, perhaps there are forums out there which would have taken her at face value, this isn't one of them.

To be honest I have been quite surprised at how mild the opposition to the OP is, I've seem a lot worse for a lot less.


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## TB135 (3 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Because we are not stupid or blind.  Simples.  All OP and yourselves seem to actually be responding to and saying is that the OP is great and that we don't know the situation, and that she isn't breeding or has never had a stallion etc etc.  Not one of the other worries or concerns has been responded to.  Then again, your not obliged to.  Just seems odd that's all.  If you really want to defend OP and she is so perfect then how can you not respond about the acorns or the fencing or the riding establishment etc?!!
		
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Because like everyone else on this forum, I don't know the full situation. I have not once said that she has never had a stallion, because she has, but the point I made was that he had been gelded. She used to keep him somewhere away from the main yard, but he has since been gelded and moved in with the other horses. I just think people need to be more fair, yes you have found things online that make this place look like a dodgy 'fake sanctuary' as someone called it? But everyone has been picking on things they have found where pictures may be old, things might be improved since, etc. etc.


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## TB135 (3 February 2012)

rockysmum said:



			In which case you can hardly expect anyone to value your opinion, you are hardly unbiased.

If people come on here with a business, charity or whatever which is easily traced on the internet they should expect people to do some research.  I have also seen the facebook page, what do you expect a forum full of horse professionals and horse lovers to think about some of the things posted on there.

The OP made a serious error of judgement coming on here for advice, perhaps there are forums out there which would have taken her at face value, this isn't one of them.

To be honest I have been quite surprised at how mild the opposition to the OP is, I've seem a lot worse for a lot less.
		
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I completely agree with you that she shouldn't have come on here, or any forum for that matter for advice on this issue. I agree that she has gone about this problem in the wrong way, but I do not agree with the things that people have been saying about her yard. Having been to this place myself I have seen that the horses there are happy and in good condition, and she does a wonderful job on those that come to her in bad condition. All she wanted from this was some USEFUL advice on how to save her horses, and didn't deserve to be slated.


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## Moomin1 (3 February 2012)

TB135,

The photos were posted at the end of summer last year in the main.  I have no doubt that things were shifted here and there before the inspection, but that does not make a good sanctuary or charity. It should never have been like that and anyone who thinks it was excusable is an idiot.  Also, more worryingly so, even though you don't seem to be able to answer or defend this up to now, the comments made by other loaners etc at the place were all EXTREMELY recent ie end of last year, beginning of this year.  The place sounds nothing short of a shambles, with god knows how many teenagers trawling the place unaccounted for on different days, making arrangements between themselves as to who is riding who or doing what, and also friends/mothers/family suddenly coming up to have a ride on the horses because they fancy it - without OP ever having assessed their suitability.  In one post someone asked if their friend could lead a shetland out on a ride with them, and all OP asked on fb was "Is she ok with horses, so and so can be a difficult one?".  It's an accident waiting to happen and I'm suprised no one has been seriously hurt or worse.  As for the riding establishment side of things.  Are you saying that people don't have lessons there?  Leonie/Leona or whoever it is seems to come over (picked up by OP) quite frequently to give lessons, and to loaners on OP's horses.  Mostly sounding like complete beginners as they are requesting to learn how to sit to the trot.  That is a riding school I'm afraid.  A dodgy one too.


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## scrunchie (3 February 2012)

TB135 said:



			]. All she wanted from this was some USEFUL advice on how to save her horses, and didn't deserve to be slated.
		
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And she got useful advice and plenty of links to different sites that would help.

Ok, she got slated but what did she expect? There are many people from legitimate riding schools and charities on here, as well as people that work in equine law and various councils. People do not take kindly to people trying to pose as something they are not.

Had she been a charity or riding school just starting out looking for advice I am sure people would have been much more accomodating but to come on here with some fanciful figures plucked from midair and an emotive story about horses having to be PTS riled people up the wrong way.


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## rockysmum (3 February 2012)

TB135 said:



			I completely agree with you that she shouldn't have come on here, or any forum for that matter for advice on this issue. I agree that she has gone about this problem in the wrong way, but I do not agree with the things that people have been saying about her yard. Having been to this place myself I have seen that the horses there are happy and in good condition, and she does a wonderful job on those that come to her in bad condition. All she wanted from this was some USEFUL advice on how to save her horses, and didn't deserve to be slated.
		
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I think she has had some very useful advice on here.  Particular useful is the fact that not everyone on here thinks the set up is wonderful.  I suspect that she is surrounded by people like yourself who are only seeing the good and not looking a little deeper.  Staying within the law, particularly regarding things like fire and insurance are essential in these "no win no fee" days.  Bottom line is this lady is likely to be breaking the law, the council obviously thinks so.  She needs to sort the place out, if the comments on here encourage her to do so, then it was a worthwhile exercise.

Perhaps rather than offering unconditional support you could visit and help plan how the establishment could move forward.


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## Moomin1 (3 February 2012)

TB135 you also say earlier that the stallion was gelded because they didn't want to breed from him.  Have you read OP's comments on that subject?


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## rhino (3 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			In one post someone asked if their friend could lead a shetland out on a ride with them, and all OP asked on fb was "Is she ok with horses, so and so can be a difficult one?".
		
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The one I found worrying when one girl was obviously scared after her horse had taken off (I can't say bolting as it may well not have been) and gone THROUGH a barbed wire fence. The OP responded 'She was enjoying herself, fun, fun, fun'  How is that fun for the horse OR the rider?

Or when the girl had come off and broken her hand and the OP advised anyone else who wanted to ride it should 'lunge it for hours' 

Or the several instances (I saw at least 3) when horses had escaped from the field, some being found on a road and others 'past the sewage works' where OP had difficulty returning them 'without drowning in the river'

Of course the fb page is down now


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## Moomin1 (3 February 2012)

Yeah I know Rhino!!  There were too many dispicable comments and scenarios on there for me to even remember, hence the constant posts as I remember bits and bobs!!!  I have an image in my head of this place which can only be best likened to the Thelwell books!


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## RoobyDoobs (3 February 2012)

rhino said:



			The one I found worrying when one girl was obviously scared after her horse had taken off (I can't say bolting as it may well not have been) and gone THROUGH a barbed wire fence. The OP responded 'She was enjoying herself, fun, fun, fun'  How is that fun for the horse OR the rider?

Or when the girl had come off and broken her hand and the OP advised anyone else who wanted to ride it should 'lunge it for hours' 

Or the several instances (I saw at least 3) when horses had escaped from the field, some being found on a road and others 'past the sewage works' where OP had difficulty returning them 'without drowning in the river'

Of course the fb page is down now 

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I haven't read these fb posts for myself, but I'm sorry TB135, I think your friend is a liability.  A danger to herself and the loaning 'mums' that are trusting her judgement regarding the safety of their children.  Seems to me the council are doing their job.  Good on them I say


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## Puzzles (3 February 2012)

I am inclined to agree with TB135 because people are being extremely judgemental and nit-picking about someone that most people have never yet, about a yard they have never been to, and based on hearsay and assumptions: it actually reminds me of all the rugging posts with people slating each other for either cooking their horses or freezing them! I think we all agree that the OP should be doing things differently, but you can't deny that not everything she has done is evil and illegal! Using online sources to slate someone and be rude and antagonstic when none of us can possibly know the whole situation, is pretty shameful to be honest. By all means give constructive advice in a tactful and sensitive manner, but there is no need to be rude and attack the OP on a personal level. It just shows how judgemental and narrow this forum can be, because the OP is a newbie and pretty shocked at the responses she has received. If she defends herself then people only go and check her up online to find more fault! It's insane. Like I said, I think everyone agrees that the OP has a lot of work to do and a lot of issues to work on, but none of us are perfect and I'm sure we all keep our horses in different ways that would horrify some people. This isn't the best impression of how fantastic H&H can be.


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## Marydoll (3 February 2012)

rhino said:



			The one I found worrying when one girl was obviously scared after her horse had taken off (I can't say bolting as it may well not have been) and gone THROUGH a barbed wire fence. The OP responded 'She was enjoying herself, fun, fun, fun'  How is that fun for the horse OR the rider?

Or when the girl had come off and broken her hand and the OP advised anyone else who wanted to ride it should 'lunge it for hours' 

Or the several instances (I saw at least 3) when horses had escaped from the field, some being found on a road and others 'past the sewage works' where OP had difficulty returning them 'without drowning in the river'

Of course the fb page is down now 

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OMG seriously I only went on and looked at some pics, never read any comments, and im glad i didnt if the above is correct.
If these comments are correct, that is awful .


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## Moomin1 (3 February 2012)

There are plenty of threads on here were people post pictures of their skinny rescue horses etc, and everyone ooh's and ahh's and says how awful it is that the old owner could let it get so bad and that they have committed offences etc etc.  Also, people jump on the bandwagon about horses being kept in excessively muddy fields with cracked hooves and matted tails.  These can all be considered not meeting the needs of horse's in the eyes of The Animal Welfare Act.  This OP is breaking the law.  The council have spotted it and that legislation is there to protect people and horses.  There ARE also welfare breaches there too.  If you saw those horses in a field full of ragwort and she was asking for donations, would you still be inclined to say that she is trying her best etc etc?  I doubt it.  There is no difference in this case.  The horses are not protected from injury and not in a suitable environment.


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## Moomin1 (3 February 2012)

Yes Marydoll, those comments are true!! I saw them too.  There were lots more than that too!  I imagine no doubt that they have been swiftly removed.


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## rhino (3 February 2012)

marydoll said:



			OMG seriously I only went on and looked at some pics, never read any comments, and im glad i didnt if the above is correct.
If these comments are correct, that is awful .
		
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I'm afraid those comments are correct 

Puzzles - nobody has said OP is evil, so I'm not sure if you are trying to stir things a little.

Illegal - quite possibly, IF she doesn't follow the council's procedures and obtain her riding school license, sorting out the stabling and other 'health and safety issues' which were not mentioned in her posts her but were on fb.

Misguided - again, I agree with others that I have no doubt her intentions were good, but sometimes good intentions are simply not enough.


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## Puzzles (3 February 2012)

rhino said:



			I'm afraid those comments are correct 

Puzzles - nobody has said OP is evil, so I'm not sure if you are trying to stir things a little.

Illegal - quite possibly, IF she doesn't follow the council's procedures and obtain her riding school license, sorting out the stabling and other 'health and safety issues' which were not mentioned in her posts her but were on fb.

Misguided - again, I agree with others that I have no doubt her intentions were good, but sometimes good intentions are simply not enough.
		
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Definitely not a stirrer here. Just starting to think people may be going a bit far. As I said, noone denies (see my first post) that, heart in the right place though it may be, what the OP is doing cannot carry on and things must change quickly.


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## Moomin1 (3 February 2012)

If tomorrow you saw that one of those horses had died as a result of liver failure, due to poisoning from acorns, or broke it's leg in the shoddy fencing, or a fire started and kids and horses were killed due to the lack of fire precautions, then would you still feel that people were going too far on here to try and drum the message home to someone who gets completely hysterical when advised and defends everything by suggesting we all want her horses killed?  This is not a reasonable horse owner, this is a classic hoarder who will not see sense no matter what dangers or incidents take place.  I SERIOUSLY hope for everyone's sake that she is dealt with appropriately by the authorities.  It would be nice for OP to come on here and show what improvements have been made and the intentions for further improvements.  I doubt that will happen, but I may well be proved wrong.  Let's hope so!


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## Marydoll (3 February 2012)

Op it sounds like a good thing the council have became involved, if anything they may be able to guide you through the legislation to ensure your place is run in a safe legal manner, in this day and age of litigation the comments others have seen of the fb page give real cause for concern for the safety of horses and visitors/riders at your establishment detailed within them.
I really hope this is resolved quickly, and i also really hope you are insured


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## Moomin1 (3 February 2012)

Marydoll she isn't insured.  She asks her loaners to take their own insurance out and up until very recently she didn't even ask to see the insurance until the council suggested to her that she checked.  She then frantically chased this up on fb asking all loaners to bring in a copy of their documents.  She also mentions that she never normally does paperwork.


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## Puzzles (3 February 2012)

marydoll said:



			Op it sounds like a good thing the council have became involved, if anything they may be able to guide you through the legislation to ensure your place is run in a safe legal manner, in this day and age of litigation the comments others have seen of the fb page give real cause for concern for the safety of horses and visitors/riders at your establishment detailed within them.
I really hope this is resolved quickly, and i also really hope you are insured
		
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Well said.


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## icklemee (4 February 2012)

Things are far from perfect and ideally it would be time to do things by the book if not simply to allow fund raising to begin and in turn, make improvements for the animals. I suspect that this is impossible to arrange due to financial reasons.  
I want to confirm that I'm not the OP (not sure what that stands for) as someone suggested we might be one and the same person, although you're correct in that I did only join to comment on this thread simply to counteract a few comments on here that were just not correct.  I have no reason to be a fan of the place even though I spent time there, I simply wanted to discount the stories of breeding and profiteering which, quite rightly & understandably, would influence people's opinions and responses even more :l


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## icklemee (4 February 2012)

You have provided some great links on here and I just hope that the way to go has been found and I can only hope that the ball may be rolling in a better direction


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## rhino (4 February 2012)

Icklemee - I made the offer earlier but OP is welcome to pm me if she wants any info/help with the riding establishment license. I checked out the Stratford council regs and there is no need for individual stabling. I'm not sure what the other health and safety issues are but am happy to go through them if it will be any help.


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## icklemee (4 February 2012)

rhino said:



			Icklemee - I made the offer earlier but OP is welcome to pm me if she wants any info/help with the riding establishment license. I checked out the Stratford council regs and there is no need for individual stabling. I'm not sure what the other health and safety issues are but am happy to go through them if it will be any help. 

Click to expand...

   That's brilliant thanks for doing that, I just hope she reads this soon.  Hopefully it won't be half as daunting as she imagines it is.  There's got to be a way to do it and if she sees that some people simply want to improve things for the horses that are there then I'm hoping it will lift her spirits a lot, & give her some hope that it just might be do-able


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## ofcourseyoucan (3 March 2012)

legislation WILL not kill the horses, though repeated strangles outbreaks may just do that.....


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## rockysmum (3 March 2012)

ofcourseyoucan said:



			legislation WILL not kill the horses, though repeated strangles outbreaks may just do that.....
		
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Thats interesting, I thought TFC had removed these.

Sounds like she is only keeping the profitable horses now and getting rid of the rescues.


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## rhino (3 March 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Thats interesting, I thought TFC had removed these.

Sounds like she is only keeping the profitable horses now and getting rid of the rescues.
		
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No, the stable yard thread was removed, not this one. I have seen photos of some of the horses being rehomed, everything from youngstock to elderly horses, and I'm sure some were still rideable.


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## rockysmum (3 March 2012)

rhino said:



			No, the stable yard thread was removed, not this one. I have seen photos of some of the horses being rehomed, everything from youngstock to elderly horses, and I'm sure some were still rideable.
		
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Did she contact you about the licence, it sounds like she is still renting the horses out.


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## rhino (3 March 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Did she contact you about the licence, it sounds like she is still renting the horses out.
		
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No she didn't and yes she is


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## FionaM12 (3 March 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Did she contact you about the licence, it sounds like she is still renting the horses out.
		
Click to expand...

Somehow I doubt the OP would contact anyone from this forum. 

I think what the OP wanted to hear was that we all thought the council was quite wrong, that hers isn't a riding establishment, but a reputable charity. She left outraged that that isn't what anyone thought.


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