# Do I have grounds for a refund?



## Lexie01 (15 May 2021)

Hi, just wondering if anyone has been in this position before and what they did.
We purchased a pony a few weeks ago - it was sold as a 148 pony. It seemed quite large in the videos I was sent so I questioned and was told that she had had 2 previous JMB measurements - the last one being 146.8 2 years previously when she was 6. I checked the JMB database and this was correct.
Within 3 weeks of purchase we took her to our nearest JMB measurer and the smallest they could get her to measure in was 151. She was extremely relaxed, had feet trimmed etc.
I contacted the previous owner and basically said that I had not 'prepared' the pony enough for the measuring. When. I asked her to clarify what this meant she said
My daughter needs the pony to measure in as 148 to jump BS juniors.


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## ihatework (15 May 2021)

I think you need to speak to an equestrian based lawyer. It’s a niche area of dispute


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## Red-1 (15 May 2021)

As far as I am concerned, the pony was advertised at a certain height, and isn't. What it measured 2 years ago is neither here nor there, it was sold as 148, and it isn't. That should be grounds for a refund. I would have thought small claims would cover it, as long as the cost wasn't over a certain amount, that escapes me.


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## fetlock (15 May 2021)

A previous height dispute which ended up in court.

https://andersonstrathern.co.uk/news-insight/the-sale-of-a-pony-a-judicial-neigh-for-the-purchaser/


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## The Fuzzy Furry (15 May 2021)

If the pony didnt have a current life height on it, why not?
It was very close as a 6 yr old.  
You need a specialist lawyer as ihw says. But you are nuts for buying without a current or life  jmb height cert!


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## AnShanDan (15 May 2021)

This could be a tricky one for you. Measurement of ponies is pretty critical and can massively affect their value. 
They have to be measured twice by different vets and the second measurement has to be at 7+. 
146.8 to 151 is a big jump but they can really stand up very tall sometimes. That's why all the FEI ponies are measured routinely so they don't react to just getting measured.
What did the vendor suggest you do to prep the pony more?? 
(I can guess).


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## Lexie01 (15 May 2021)

AnShanDan said:



			This could be a tricky one for you. Measurement of ponies is pretty critical and can massively affect their value.
They have to be measured twice by different vets and the second measurement has to be at 7+.
146.8 to 151 is a big jump but they can really stand up very tall sometimes. That's why all the FEI ponies are measured routinely so they don't react to just getting measured.
What did the vendor suggest you do to prep the pony more??
(I can guess).
		
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Hi, she accused my excellent farrier of not taking enough foot off and that I should have exercised her beforehand. I understand that some owners do this to release 'energy' from some ponies who are liable to get a bit stressed but I can't tell you how chilled this pony is. The vet who measured her said her feet were perfect and she was very relaxed throughout the whole process.


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## Lexie01 (15 May 2021)

Red-1 said:



			As far as I am concerned, the pony was advertised at a certain height, and isn't. What it measured 2 years ago is neither here nor there, it was sold as 148, and it isn't. That should be grounds for a refund. I would have thought small claims would cover it, as long as the cost wasn't over a certain amount, that escapes me.
		
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Thanks - unfortunately it was a lot over the amount for small claims. Sold as a top 148 showjumper/eventer!


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## ihatework (15 May 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			Thanks - unfortunately it was a lot over the amount for small claims. Sold as a top 148 showjumper/eventer!
		
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You need specialist advice!!!
REALLY daft to spend megabucks on a 148 without a current certificate. But that doesn’t mean you won’t have any legal comeback.

This is not a forum conundrum!


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## AnShanDan (15 May 2021)

151 to 148 is a fair drop and if you say the pony is really chilled that makes it even harder. That said I've seen a tense pony go from 153 to 148, it took an hour but he got there. 
Nightmare for you. I agree you may well have to get legal advice.


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## Ambers Echo (15 May 2021)

Was it a private seller or a dealer. AFAIK a private seller is only deemed to be mis-selling if they knowingly misrepresent the pony. She had good reason to believe pony would measure in so in that case I can't see you have  case. If it was a dealer, you have more rights. Get legal advice asap. X


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## Tiddlypom (15 May 2021)

You do need legal advice.

I presume that you had the pony vetted as it was not cheap. Knowing what you wanted the pony for, did the vet not advise you to get the pony measured again?

A bit of research would have told you how the height certificates work these days.


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## Lexie01 (15 May 2021)

ihatework said:



			You need specialist advice!!!
REALLY daft to spend megabucks on a 148 without a current certificate. But that doesn’t mean you won’t have any legal comeback.

This is not a forum conundrum!
		
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Thanks. I agree entirely about not getting a current certificate. Unfortunately decent 148 ponies are often being sold unseen atm. We drove nearly 300 miles to view this pony, along with many other people. We relied on the fact that she measured well within 148 2 years previous. If we had requested a current certificate she would have been sold to someone else - which with the benefit of hindsight would have been better but at the time we didn't want to risk losing the sale as my daughter didn't have a pony to ride.


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## Lexie01 (15 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			You do need legal advice.

I presume that you had the pony vetted as it was not cheap. Knowing what you wanted the pony for, did the vet not advise you to get the pony measured again?

A bit of research would have told you how the height certificates work these days.
		
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5 stage vetting which she passed. I am not a complete novice - I understand about annual/life height certificates. As I have said in a previous comment the market is mad atm - 148 ponies are being sold for huge amounts unseen. My daughters pony had been retired, we needed another competition pony asap and this was perfect. It had 2 previous measurements well within 148. There was nothing to suggest it wouldn't measure in.


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 May 2021)

Would a 5 stage vetting not include measurement?


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## Gingerwitch (15 May 2021)

Poor pony now faces Lord knows what but it will get the height through some god awful unthinkable practices. I shudder at the thoughts and I am not saying you will do this but someone will.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (15 May 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Would a 5 stage vetting not include measurement?
		
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Not usually, and def not for jmb purposes


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## The Fuzzy Furry (15 May 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Poor pony now faces Lord knows what but it will get the height through some god awful unthinkable practices. I shudder at the thoughts and I am not saying you will do this but someone will.
		
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The most recent one will already be uploaded and available for all to see..... the pony can be represented at cost, so I understand.


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## paddy555 (15 May 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			It seemed quite large in the videos I was sent so I questioned and was told that she had had 2 previous JMB measurements - the last one being 146.8 2 years previously when she was 6. I checked the JMB database and this was correct.
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It is difficult to see it was misold.You queried the height and the seller provided the info they based their statement on. You checked it out and were happy and as you later say it had had 2 previous measurements and  there was nothing to suggest it wouldn't measure in. Presumably the seller said it was sound, a very important point, but you got the vet to check that. Why not check the height as that was an equally important point. The fact you needed a pony quickly is not really an excuse for something so important. 
I agree with IHW daft to spend a lot of money on something that is not properly checked out on such an important point. 
A case of more money now for a lawyer I'm afraid.


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 May 2021)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Not usually, and def not for jmb purposes
		
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I've never done a 5 stage vetting on anything so I am surprised that height is part of it! Even just as a stand in the yard under a stick not a JMB thing! That seems to be a bit of a random basic thing not being included when x-rays etc are.


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## Gingerwitch (15 May 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I've never done a 5 stage vetting on anything so I am surprised that height is part of it! Even just as a stand in the yard under a stick not a JMB thing! That seems to be a bit of a random basic thing not being included when x-rays etc are.
		
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Some equines would not be in a fit state to pass a 5 stage vet and get a height measure on the same day  and time. The majority of farriers and vets will not do whst is required but there are sadly those that will.


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## Tiddlypom (15 May 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Some equines would not be in a fit state to pass a 5 stage vet and get a height measure on the same day  and time. The majority of farriers and vets will not do whst is required but there are sadly those that will.
		
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There are much stricter rules these days, so while ponies used to be nobbled to measure in, that shouldn't happen now.

Pony will be offered water in case of forced dehydration, it should be in a fit condition to do the work expected of it, and it can be dope tested.


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## Lexie01 (15 May 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Poor pony now faces Lord knows what but it will get the height through some god awful unthinkable practices. I shudder at the thoughts and I am not saying you will do this but someone will.
		
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The current height (151) will show on JMB  now so hopefully this should not happen. It is actually being looked at by their review panel (no idea what this is) due to the discrepancies between the 3 measurements.


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 May 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Some equines would not be in a fit state to pass a 5 stage vet and get a height measure on the same day  and time. The majority of farriers and vets will not do whst is required but there are sadly those that will.
		
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True but even a standard measurement at home will give you an indication of if it is within the height range or not. A cm either way you wouldn't be worried about but 5cm is a huge difference and would have shown up at the vetting if done.


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## Lexie01 (15 May 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I've never done a 5 stage vetting on anything so I am surprised that height is part of it! Even just as a stand in the yard under a stick not a JMB thing! That seems to be a bit of a random basic thing not being included when x-rays etc are.
		
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No it isn't included. A vet can put a stick next to a horse but this is subject to whether the ground is flat, horse being stressed or knackered due to vetting etc so not really worth asking in many cases.


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## Lexie01 (15 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			There are much stricter rules these days, so while ponies used to be nobbled to measure in, that shouldn't happen now.

Pony will be offered water in case of forced dehydration, it should be in a fit condition to do the work expected of it, and it can be dope tested.
		
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so why could there be a 4cm difference?


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 May 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			No it isn't included. A vet can put a stick next to a horse but this is subject to whether the ground is flat, horse being stressed or knackered due to vetting etc so not really worth asking in many cases.
		
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Maybe so but it would give you a general idea on if the pony will fit the height requirements or not. It doesn't need to be an official JMB but for a pony or horse requiring to be of a certain size it would make sense to include it.


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## Tiddlypom (15 May 2021)

Last measured as a 6yo, is now presumably an 8yo?

Pony has grown. It happens.

You really do need legal advice. Do you still have the original advert, any communications between you and seller and the bill of sale?


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## Gingerwitch (15 May 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			The current height (151) will show on JMB  now so hopefully this should not happen. It is actually being looked at by their review panel (no idea what this is) due to the discrepancies between the 3 measurements.
		
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I am pleased to hear that only for the ponies sake. Sorry your in this situation.


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## Lexie01 (15 May 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			I am pleased to hear that only for the ponies sake. Sorry your in this situation.
		
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Thank you. I think I may be in this situation because I refuse to do the whole exercise/dehydrate thing. I couldn't live with myself doing that to any animal just to get a certain height measurement from them.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (15 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Last measured as a 6yo, is now presumably an 8yo?

Pony has grown. It happens.

You really do need legal advice. Do you still have the original advert, any communications between you and seller and the bill of sale?
		
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Exactly this.  I would expect any 6 yr old to grow on by 8.
Hence why a life cert isn't issued at 6.
OP, if the pony was measured in January as a 6 yr old, he would definitely have grown on since then  (most comp animals get measured in early  winter months)


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## Gingerwitch (15 May 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			Thank you. I think I may be in this situation because I refuse to do the whole exercise/dehydrate thing. I couldn't live with myself doing that to any animal just to get a certain height measurement from them.
		
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Its the brutalised of the feet I cannot belive that is done.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (15 May 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Its the brutalised of the feet I cannot belive that is done.
		
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It isn't, not usually and any jmb vet can and will inspect and can refuse to measure.


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## Lexie01 (15 May 2021)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Exactly this.  I would expect any 6 yr old to grow on by 8.
Hence why a life cert isn't issued at 6.
OP, if the pony was measured in January as a 6 yr old, he would definitely have grown on since then  (most comp animals get measured in early  winter months)
		
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She was measured in March 2019. I understand that a pony could still grow post 6 but my vet said she has never seen a case of one growing by 4cm within 2 years at this age.
I do have the original  advert plus all communication about the height of the pony and subsequent conversations about how to 'prepare' a pony for measuring. Also whilst she isn't a 'dealer' as such she is involved professionally in the riding and training of horses and in this capacity she sells horses throughout the year.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (15 May 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			She was measured in March 2019. I understand that a pony could still grow post 6 but my vet said she has never seen a case of one growing by 4cm within 2 years at this age.
I do have the original  advert plus all communication about the height of the pony and subsequent conversations about how to 'prepare' a pony for measuring. Also whilst she isn't a 'dealer' as such she is involved professionally in the riding and training of horses and in this capacity she sells horses throughout the year.
		
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I've had 2 that grew on in 2 years. One did  4.5cm and the other just over 5. It happens.


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## Melody Grey (15 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			You do need legal advice.

I presume that you had the pony vetted as it was not cheap. Knowing what you wanted the pony for, did the vet not advise you to get the pony measured again?

A bit of research would have told you how the height certificates work these days.
		
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Genuine question as I’ve never been in the position of buying something with a LHC- would the vet not take a measuring stick at the vetting? I know that wouldn’t be the same as a certificate, but it would influence whether it was fit for the intended purpose....assuming that the max permissible height is part of its suitability for the job?


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## Elno (15 May 2021)

I don't know the practise is UK, but in Sweden we measure ponies when they are eight years old. The procedure is quit tedious since you have to go to a special location and have your pony measured by a special commitee just to make sure that the pony is not subjected to common tricks like dehydration or too heavy a hoof trim. 

Buying a pony not finally measured at eight is a big gamble, as you sadly have experienced.


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## Melody Grey (15 May 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I've never done a 5 stage vetting on anything so I am surprised that height is part of it! Even just as a stand in the yard under a stick not a JMB thing! That seems to be a bit of a random basic thing not being included when x-rays etc are.
		
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Cross posted- my thoughts too!


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## humblepie (15 May 2021)

You need to speak to a specialist equine solicitor.   Check your insurance including house insurance and any society memberships you have as you may have legal cover or at least initial legal advice.


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## brighteyes (15 May 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			Thank you. I think I may be in this situation because I refuse to do the whole exercise/dehydrate thing. I couldn't live with myself doing that to any animal just to get a certain height measurement from them.
		
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Nor were we, other than a normal 'shoe off' kind of trim, but she measured pretty straightforwardly once allowed to relax naturally. Then we faced her owner with the decision to sell as a good Junior pony (for a lot) or let us buy (for next to nothing, really) and keep for ever. She was on a sort of an informal sales livery. She decided to to put the pony first and while she jumped successfully in juniors, then to 1.20m seniors she is still here, retired. The height certificate can be pivotal!


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## brighteyes (15 May 2021)

Elno said:



			I don't know the practise is UK, but in Sweden we measure ponies when they are eight years old. The procedure is quit tedious since you have to go to a special location and have your pony measured by a special commitee just to make sure that the pony is not subjected to common tricks like dehydration or too heavy a hoof trim.

Buying a pony not finally measured at eight is a big gamble, as you sadly have experienced.
		
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This seems sensible. I have heard of 'things' being done to get ponies in under the bar.


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## Flyermc (15 May 2021)

Have you spoken to the seller and asked to return the pony?


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## brighteyes (15 May 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			She was measured in March 2019. I understand that a pony could still grow post 6 but my vet said she has never seen a case of one growing by 4cm within 2 years at this age.
I do have the original  advert plus all communication about the height of the pony and subsequent conversations about how to 'prepare' a pony for measuring. Also whilst she isn't a 'dealer' as such she is involved professionally in the riding and training of horses and in this capacity she sells horses throughout the year.
		
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Just out of interest, when you saw the pony, did you not think 'that looks big!' ? I know when we went looking at some with a friend that was something we heard.


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## canteron (15 May 2021)

Ask the sellers how they ‘prepared’ the pony!
I remember having a discussion with a parent who had the ‘skills’ to get their pony basically under measured!  Cant remember what they did but I guess it’s pretty well known in those circles?


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## teddypops (15 May 2021)

I’m surprised the vet didn’t notice at the vetting. They would have known what size you were expecting to buy and if this horse looks noticeably bigger, the vet should have noticed.


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## Casey76 (15 May 2021)

I’d be wondering what kind of “preparation” the seller does.

a friend used to compete on the Poney circuit as a junior in France.  Her pony was bought as a 3-yo at 144cm.  By the time her owner aged out of ponies the pony was 150.  When the pony was fully mature at 9 she measured 153.


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## paddy555 (15 May 2021)

brighteyes said:



			Just out of interest, when you saw the pony, did you not think 'that looks big!' ? I know when we went looking at some with a friend that was something we heard.
		
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the original post says it seemed "quite large"


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## Flyermc (15 May 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			Thanks - unfortunately it was a lot over the amount for small claims. Sold as a top 148 showjumper/eventer!
		
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Could you sell the horse and the claim the difference back via the small claims court? or if you paid for any of the purchase price via a credit card, it might be worth speaking to them?


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## ycbm (15 May 2021)

canteron said:



			Ask the sellers how they ‘prepared’ the pony!
I remember having a discussion with a parent who had the ‘skills’ to get their pony basically under measured!  Cant remember what they did but I guess it’s pretty well known in those circles?
		
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24 hours in a horsewalker/dehydration/teach to drop by using a pin in a measuring stick/scalp the feet. Those are the ones I know of.  Top level showing has a lot to answer for.


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## ycbm (15 May 2021)

If you can bear the potential abuse of the pony (and I couldn't)  one answer here is to return it to the seller and tell them that you are going to demand a refund unless they get a height certificate for 148cm.
.


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## sky1000 (15 May 2021)

There is a lot to look at here and you need specialist  equine legal advice.  Possible avenues  - mis rep (it's a long time since I studied this but I think anyone can misrep - if the seller knowingly misrepresents it is fraud whether dealer or not).   That may nor may not be undermined by you querying it and hearing that the latest height cert was two years ago.  Whether the selling of several equines makes the seller a dealer, when you may have more rights, possibly just how her height certificates were obtained given that she suggests you should have 'prepared' the pony.


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## stormox (15 May 2021)

I beed an IDx who measured in 148s at 4 and 5 and jumped a lot of clears! By the time he was 8 he was 15.1hh


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## rextherobber (15 May 2021)

stormox said:



			I beed an IDx who measured in 148s at 4 and 5 and jumped a lot of clears! By the time he was 8 he was 15.1hh
		
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My ID x grew 10 cm between 8 and 10


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## Gingerwitch (15 May 2021)

ycbm said:



			24 hours in a horsewalker/dehydration/teach to drop by using a pin in a measuring stick/scalp the feet. Those are the ones I know of.  Top level showing has a lot to answer for.
		
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Shave the withers is another one


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## FlyingCircus (15 May 2021)

ycbm said:



			If you can bear the potential abuse of the pony (and I couldn't)  one answer here is to return it to the seller and tell them that you are going to demand a refund unless they get a height certificate for 148cm.
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Would this not encourage abuse from the seller? As then they are even more incentivised to get it measuring in.


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## SO1 (15 May 2021)

Height always seems very objective in adverts unless they have a LHC I would take the advertised height as an estimated height not an actual measured certified height. If height very important then I would be taking a measuring stick at viewing especially if the pony looked big on the videos. It won't give you JMB height but it measures 15.2 on the stick it is probably not going to measure in a 148 even without shoes.

I expect the pony has grown since it was 6. There is a reason that LHC are not awarded until the pony is over 7 and that is because they can continue to grow up to that age. If the hooves were severely trimmed and perhaps the pony freshly clipped so less hair on the wither it might have squeezed in at the original measuring and perhaps then grown a couple of cm.

I think to get a refund you have to prove that the seller knew the pony was over-height and would not measure in, which is probably going to be hard to do.

I have a native pony and it was important that he would measure in, I got him at 5, 13 years ago and I am pretty sure the vet measured him at the vetting. Advertised as 14.1 but he looks tiny compared to others in his class, he is a forester and the Connie's look huge in comparison. He looks so small that my non horsey mum who came to show to see him asked why he was not in the small breeds class. My friend who has a 143 Connie said she thinks my forester would measure in at 13.1, I measured him on a stick and he is indeed 14.1 in his shoes.


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## smiggy (15 May 2021)

i think if they had a certificate at 6 saying it was 148, and sold it at 148, it would be hard to prove that they knew or thought it wasn’t. Unless they actually lied about having a newer certificate, which they didn’t, legally I can’t see they have done anything wrong. If you need it to be a certain height, surely it’s your responsibility to ensure that is the case before purchase.


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## criso (15 May 2021)

I wonder if the fact that the seller said that they should have 'prepared' the pony for measurement would be taken as knowledge that they knew the pony was overheight and would measure out under normal circumstances.  If this is in writing, it could be quite damning.

ETA however in this case I would have asked the vet to measure at the vetting. My vet always carries his measuring stick as I know from when we disagreed on how tall my last horse was and he went and got it to prove he was right - he wasn't.


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## Dexter (16 May 2021)

criso said:



			I wonder if the fact that the seller said that they should have 'prepared' the pony for measurement would be taken as knowledge that they knew the pony was overheight and would measure out under normal circumstances.  If this is in writing, it could be quite damning.
		
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I would imagine so. I thought they had introduced random spot measuring? If so and a pony needs prep to measure in then its not fit for purpose surely?


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## Tiddlypom (16 May 2021)

I've got a home made measuring stick, including a spirit level, which is pretty accurate. It's certainly good enough to measure to +/- 1.0cm. Easy to pop on for a quick check to see if the height is likely to be in the right range.


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## Flyermc (16 May 2021)

criso said:



			I wonder if the fact that the seller said that they should have 'prepared' the pony for measurement would be taken as knowledge that they knew the pony was overheight and would measure out under normal circumstances.  If this is in writing, it could be quite damning.

ETA however in this case I would have asked the vet to measure at the vetting. My vet always carries his measuring stick as I know from when we disagreed on how tall my last horse was and he went and got it to prove he was right - he wasn't.
		
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i think its really said that the seller is being made out to negligent over a 'prepared' comment that could mean anything. im sure there are awful owners out there, but the previous owner could have meant anything from just taking the shoes off or making sure the pony is relaxed. im sure a good vet is not going to measure a pony thats have most of its feet removed or showns evidence of dehydration.

The OP doesnt even mention if she's asked to return the pony and this has been refused.


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## ycbm (16 May 2021)

She knows that it's over the limit for taking a small claim to court,  though, which suggests the dealer is telling her to take a hike?
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## Goldenstar (16 May 2021)

Melody Grey said:



			Genuine question as I’ve never been in the position of buying something with a LHC- would the vet not take a measuring stick at the vetting? I know that wouldn’t be the same as a certificate, but it would influence whether it was fit for the intended purpose....assuming that the max permissible height is part of its suitability for the job?
		
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Vets don’t check height at vettings .
OP needs to get equine lawyer on the case if searches on here there is a thread with names .
People really must look after themselves .
OP should have refused to buy without a life cert .
I think Op may a case if it was a dealer as you can return a item ( horse ) if it’s not fit for purpose .


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## FlyingCircus (16 May 2021)

Read the posts yesterday and now coming with new perspective...

What if you sold a pony, put the height in the ad, gave evidence of measurements previously, allowed the buyer to vet said pony. Vet clearly passed it as fit for purpose. Didn't get asked at any point to put a stick to said pony. £££ was sent over from new buyer, pony goes on its way.

Then buyer comes back with pony is too tall?! It's not exactly something that changes overnight. There have been numerous opportunities for someone to put a stick on it. Seller could have been requested for a pic, buyer could have done it themselves, could have asked vet...


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## Goldenstar (16 May 2021)

A vetting vet would not have helped because vets don’t enter into height issues because of brouhahas like this .
People have to protect themselves and never assume something as important as this is going to be ok .


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## MissTyc (16 May 2021)

From what OP has described of the seller, the courts would likely classify her as a professional, so highly likely to side with the buyer if it came down to it. 
Def one for an equine solicitor if the seller isn't responding to the request for a refund.


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## Tiddlypom (16 May 2021)

.


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## Tiddlypom (16 May 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			A vetting vet would not have helped because vets don’t enter into height issues because of brouhahas like this .
People have to protect themselves and never assume something as important as this is going to be ok .
		
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I would have expected an experienced equine vet to be familiar with the JMB system, and to have advised the prospective purchaser that a 2019 height cert on a 6yo was no longer valid, and that a new height cert was required to be sure that pony still measures in.

This is presuming that the vet was fully briefed on the competitive plans for the pony, whuch they should have been prior to the vetting.


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## Melody Grey (16 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			I would have expected an experienced equine vet to be familiar with the JMB system, and to have advised the prospective purchaser that a 2019 height cert on a 6yo was no longer valid, and that a new height cert was required to be sure that pony still measures in.

This is presuming that the vet was fully briefed on the competitive plans for the pony, whuch they should have been prior to the vetting.
		
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This exactly- only better explained by yourself @Tiddlypom

the height is fundamental to the horses suitability to the job.


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## teddypops (16 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			I would have expected an experienced equine vet to be familiar with the JMB system, and to have advised the prospective purchaser that a 2019 height cert on a 6yo was no longer valid, and that a new height cert was required to be sure that pony still measures in.

This is presuming that the vet was fully briefed on the competitive plans for the pony, whuch they should have been prior to the vetting.
		
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The form that is filled in when booking the vetting does include questions about height, intended use and any points to query. If the horse was noticeably bigger, the vet should have pointed it out.


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## AnShanDan (16 May 2021)

The OP should obv. have insisted on a final JMB measurement before the sale took place, but the way the market is, she would then prob. have lost the pony to someone else. The pony's 2019 measurement was 146.8, so not borderline. I can see why they assumed it would measure in. Hindsight is great.
Also, it's not a question of putting a stick on it. Measuring accurately takes time and the right set up. People claim their horses are x height all the time when in fact, if they were measured properly, they'd be a few cm smaller.


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## Goldenstar (16 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			I would have expected an experienced equine vet to be familiar with the JMB system, and to have advised the prospective purchaser that a 2019 height cert on a 6yo was no longer valid, and that a new height cert was required to be sure that pony still measures in.

This is presuming that the vet was fully briefed on the competitive plans for the pony, whuch they should have been prior to the vetting.
		
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Well  they may have if they met the owner but it would outside the scope of the vetting . Height is not part of a vetting and OP will have no case against the vet.
Only specially qualified vets do measuring and its done at facility that’s approved. 

If OP can return the pony it will be under the not fit for purpose terms and her case is against the dealer .


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## Tiddlypom (16 May 2021)

Oh, I agree that the OP will gave no case against the vet, but I'd still expect a good vet to remind the purchaser of the need to remeasure. It's possible that the vet did so.


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## ycbm (16 May 2021)

If the purpose was to jump in 148 classes and the pony will not measure in,  then it's not fit for purpose and surely it can be returned to a dealer,  but not a private seller?

There is a case a few years back where a horse was returned to a dealer up this way,  Two Mills I think,  because it was too tall for a
the buyer's trailer and measured 17.2 not 17 hands, as I recollect.  I was stunned,  but the buyer won that one.
.


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## Sandales (16 May 2021)

Sellers are going to end up being reluctant to put heights on adverts after cases like this for fear of legal action. Like has already been said measuring a pony takes time to do it properly not just a case of putting a stick on it. 

Wonder if the height was given on the advert or anywhere in writing.


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## VRIN (16 May 2021)

If its a dealer then you should have no problem returning as its not fir for purpose.


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## Melody Grey (16 May 2021)

Sandales said:



			Sellers are going to end up being reluctant to put heights on adverts after cases like this for fear of legal action. Like has already been said measuring a pony takes time to do it properly not just a case of putting a stick on it.

Wonder if the height was given on the advert or anywhere in writing.
		
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I’m seeing a lot of dealers advertising with videos but no description text at the moment. The sceptic in me wonders whether it’s so they’re not holding themselves to anything about it.


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## Red-1 (16 May 2021)

Sandales said:



			Sellers are going to end up being reluctant to put heights on adverts after cases like this for fear of legal action. Like has already been said measuring a pony takes time to do it properly not just a case of putting a stick on it.

Wonder if the height was given on the advert or anywhere in writing.
		
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The word approx. would cover that though.


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## Goldenstar (16 May 2021)

Around , approx all these are ok with Horses other than 14.2 jumping pony’s where tens of thousands of pounds are lost on a half inch to big .


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## Lexie01 (16 May 2021)

Dexter said:



			I would imagine so. I thought they had introduced random spot measuring? If so and a pony needs prep to measure in then its not fit for purpose surely?
		
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When I went back to the previous owner about the measurement I expected her to say that the pony must have had a growth spurt or something. But she didn't - just said (in writing) that I couldn't have prepared her for the measurement. I asked her to clarify what she meant by this as I had removed shoes, trimmed feet and took her to the vets (10 minute drive). This is when she said that the farrier obviously didn't trim enough off feet and that I should exercise before measuring?? This makes me think that she has done this previously and that is why the pony measured under.


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## Lexie01 (16 May 2021)

Red-1 said:



			The word approx. would cover that though.
		
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Yes. it was put on the advert and in messages to me when I queried height.


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## Lexie01 (16 May 2021)

criso said:



			I wonder if the fact that the seller said that they should have 'prepared' the pony for measurement would be taken as knowledge that they knew the pony was overheight and would measure out under normal circumstances.  If this is in writing, it could be quite damning.

ETA however in this case I would have asked the vet to measure at the vetting. My vet always carries his measuring stick as I know from when we disagreed on how tall my last horse was and he went and got it to prove he was right - he wasn't.
		
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Yes I do have it in writing - I have passed it on. to JMB.
But you are right - I could kick myself for not asking the vet to check. I relied on the 2 previous measurements being accurate.


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## Tiddlypom (16 May 2021)

Exercising a pony beforehand so that they are calm and relaxed for the measuring, and the farrier closely trimming (but not butchering) the feet are standard practice.

The JMB advice is to prepare the pony well beforehand for the measurement.


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## ycbm (16 May 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			Yes I do have it in writing - I have passed it on. to JMB.
But you are right - I could kick myself for not asking the vet to check. I relied on the 2 previous measurements being accurate.
		
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They may well have been accurate.  I don't know if you know (ignore me if you do) but horses have no shoulder joint,  their front legs are attached to their bodies only by masses of soft tissue. That means that as they muscle wnd tone up with age,  the withers can rise by significant amounts and the pony can "grow" even though the bones aren't any longer.  I've had a cob grow at least 2.5cm after 6 years old. 
.


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## Lexie01 (16 May 2021)

SO1 said:



			Height always seems very objective in adverts unless they have a LHC I would take the advertised height as an estimated height not an actual measured certified height. If height very important then I would be taking a measuring stick at viewing especially if the pony looked big on the videos. It won't give you JMB height but it measures 15.2 on the stick it is probably not going to measure in a 148 even without shoes.

I expect the pony has grown since it was 6. There is a reason that LHC are not awarded until the pony is over 7 and that is because they can continue to grow up to that age. If the hooves were severely trimmed and perhaps the pony freshly clipped so less hair on the wither it might have squeezed in at the original measuring and perhaps then grown a couple of cm.

I think to get a refund you have to prove that the seller knew the pony was over-height and would not measure in, which is probably going to be hard to do.

I have a native pony and it was important that he would measure in, I got him at 5, 13 years ago and I am pretty sure the vet measured him at the vetting. Advertised as 14.1 but he looks tiny compared to others in his class, he is a forester and the Connie's look huge in comparison. He looks so small that my non horsey mum who came to show to see him asked why he was not in the small breeds class. My friend who has a 143 Connie said she thinks my forester would measure in at 13.1, I measured him on a stick and he is indeed 14.1 in his shoes.
		
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It is difficult to judge height in some ponies. My other 148 pony I was convinced would never measure in - we decided to affiliate her after owning her for a few years so height hadn't been that important. She was only 146.5 - yet looked massive. The new pony is a little 'odd'. She literally has the face of a horse, a broad body but short legs.


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## Lexie01 (16 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Exercising a pony beforehand so that they are calm and relaxed for the measuring, and the farrier closely trimming (but not butchering) the feet are standard practice.

The JMB advice is to prepare the pony well beforehand for the measurement.
		
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I have read this as well but the mares feet were perfectly trimmed according to the vet. If the pony is very relaxed (she is the most chilled pony I have literally ever some across) why would I need to exercise her? This is where I struggle. I understand if you have a very wired pony it makes sense - to relax them a little but I can think of no reason why I would have needed to exercise in this case. Other than to knacker her out a bit??


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## Flyermc (16 May 2021)

Has the previous owner refused to have her back?


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## Lexie01 (16 May 2021)

Flyermc said:



			Has the previous owner refused to have her back?
		
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Yes - in her words 'I can't buy the pony back as then she is a horse with me too'


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## Goldenstar (16 May 2021)

Get yourself legal advice and take her to court .


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## Goldenstar (16 May 2021)

Was that in a text ?


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## Melody Grey (16 May 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			Yes - in her words 'I can't buy the pony back as then she is a horse with me too'
		
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Not your problem OP. If it’s a mis-represented sale, that’s very much the seller’s problem.


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## fetlock (16 May 2021)

You mention that the pony looked big on the videos you saw. Did the pony still look big when you travelled to see/try it?


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## Goldenstar (16 May 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			Yes - in her words 'I can't buy the pony back as then she is a horse with me too'
		
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I would argue that this is an admission that the pony is not fit for purpose


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## marmalade76 (16 May 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			Yes - in her words 'I can't buy the pony back as then she is a horse with me too'
		
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You're not asking her to buy the pony back, you're asking for a refund on something that is not as described  and not fit for purpose.


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## SO1 (16 May 2021)

I thought she was originally saying that the problem was that you did not know how to prepare the pony to get it to measure in. If that is the case then if she takes it back she can get it remeasured and get an LHC and resell.

If she is so confident that she get the pony to measure in without breaking any rules then perhaps she can offer to come and help you do so or is she changing her tune now and saying the horse will not measure and it actually bigger than she originally thought and she made a mistake in thinking it was a 148?

How long had the dealer had the horse for. Could she have picked it up cheaply because previous owners thought it would go over-height or done as you did presumed it would measure in because of the previous measurements and not bothered to put a stick to it to check how big with shoes on.

Very few horses and ponies are sold with LHC so most heights advertised are estimated. Very few ponies without a LHC advertised as 148 are probably spot on 148. Would you have felt differently if the pony measured at 148.50 and be expecting a refund again no use to you but only a little over-height. She was advertising at 148 not 146.8 so she must have known the pony had grown since it was last measured if she advertised it at 148 and possibly measured it herself to know it was not 146.8 any more. To be fair I expect there are ponies advertised as full up 148 when they are smaller as people will pay more for a 148 than 143.

I think you need legal advice are you a BSH gold member as you can get legal advice through them.



Lexie01 said:



			Yes - in her words 'I can't buy the pony back as then she is a horse with me too'
		
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## Lois Lame (17 May 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			It is difficult to judge height in some ponies. My other 148 pony I was convinced would never measure in - we decided to affiliate her after owning her for a few years so height hadn't been that important. She was only 146.5 - yet looked massive. The new pony is a little 'odd'. She literally has the face of a horse, a broad body but short legs.
		
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She sounds lovely. I'm going to suggest the unmentionable (feeling brave this morning). Why not go ahead and compete in the bigger class even though it's all a bit annoying? Maybe she'll do brilliantly. It seems a shame that this cutie could get into wrong hands.


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## Lexie01 (17 May 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			Was that in a text ?
		
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yes it was all in messenger


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## Goldenstar (17 May 2021)

Get all your stuff together , screen shot all texts and messages , write out a timeline of everything that happened while clear . This is something I do every single time I ring someone about a horse .
I think ( I am not a lawyer ) that she has made a admission in that message that she has sold you goods that are not fit of purpose .
You have no choice now, find an equine lawyer today and ring them .


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## Tiddlypom (17 May 2021)

It's been a legal issue from the start.

The JMB are obviously now aware of the disparity between the height measurements taken in 2019 and 2021. When/if the pony is presented for re measuring by whichever party, the officials will be closely scrutinising the pony for issues of being nobbled to measure in.

It is an art to get a slightly too tall pony to measure in, it can be done without necessarily resorting to illegal or unethical practices.


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## Goldenstar (17 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			It's been a legal issue from the start.

The JMB are obviously now aware of the disparity between the height measurements taken in 2019 and 2021. When/if the pony is presented for re measuring by whichever party, the officials will be closely scrutinising the pony for issues of being nobbled to measure in.

It is an art to get a slightly too tall pony to measure in, it can be done without necessarily resorting to illegal or unethical practices.
		
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The pony measured 15.1 on the stick it’s difficult to get rid of three inches .


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## Tiddlypom (17 May 2021)

Tbf, it's 3 cm, not inches.

Agree that even 3 cm is a lot to lose if the pony's feet had not been left too long and she was truly relaxed when she measured over.

It's definitely a legal issue. The OP has kept communications between her and the seller, which is excellent.


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## ycbm (17 May 2021)

Lois Lame said:



			She sounds lovely. I'm going to suggest the unmentionable (feeling brave this morning). Why not go ahead and compete in the bigger class even though it's all a bit annoying? Maybe she'll do brilliantly. It seems a shame that this cutie could get into wrong hands.
		
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I don't know a lot about it but I think competitor age is linked to pony height.  I sold a16h horse to a very tall twin when her sister wanted a 148 to get into the age classes and the 16h had to compete against adults.

Also,  there is a question of value here,  the pony is worth thousands less if it's over height.
.


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## Gamebird (17 May 2021)

Melody Grey said:



			Genuine question as I’ve never been in the position of buying something with a LHC- would the vet not take a measuring stick at the vetting? I know that wouldn’t be the same as a certificate, but it would influence whether it was fit for the intended purpose....assuming that the max permissible height is part of its suitability for the job?
		
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I do several vettings a week and I would absolutely not under any circumstances get involved with establishing the height of a pony at a vetting. Far too many factors in play. I'd turn it the other way round and say that if the height of a pony is vital to whether or not you buy, and it hasn't got a LHC, then why wouldn't you take a measuring stick with you when you go to try it? It's something that anyone can do, it doesn't have to be a vet.


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## MissTyc (17 May 2021)

Lois Lame said:



			She sounds lovely. I'm going to suggest the unmentionable (feeling brave this morning). Why not go ahead and compete in the bigger class even though it's all a bit annoying? Maybe she'll do brilliantly. It seems a shame that this cutie could get into wrong hands.
		
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I think the cost of a 148 jumping pony is significantly higher than a 151 horse, so it probably wouldn't sit well with OP!


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## Goldenstar (17 May 2021)

It’s not just the price the child can’t do pony classes .


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## Errin Paddywack (17 May 2021)

Not only can the child not do pony classes but the horse is very small to do horse classes.  Very difficult situation.  Years ago at our local Riding Club a girl upgraded from a 14hh to a 14.2hh, two of them in fact.  Many comments about them being over height but no-one ever demanded they be measured.  They were very successful in 14.2hh classes locally but when she came to sell them they had to be measured and were found to be 14.3hh.  She also bought what she said was a 13.2 and competed with that.  It towered over my 13.2hh who did have a LFC but no-one challenged her over it.  They were a very mouthy family, I think it was deemed easier to just let it ride.  Have to say I was extremely pleased that she did eventually get her comeuppance.


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## honetpot (17 May 2021)

I think it's like buying a car without a valid MOT, you either factor in the cost of the MOT, and the fact its may not pass, or you buy with enough knowledge that you can sort it. Even if something has a Full certificate it can still measure out if challenged,
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/showing/five-horse-of-the-year-show-contenders-measure-out-301607
https://www.thejmbonline.co.uk/faq/FAQ.html
I have one that I think is about 14.2ish, in winter unfit no one would question that, in summer sometimes he looks 15hands, but would probably look small in a SHP 15 hand class, because everything else would be carrying extra weight and muscle. For showing or jumping he is worth less because he is in-between heights, if I was selling him, he has never been officially measured it would be at the buyers risk, and even if he had been measured, you couldn't guarantee he would pass measurement again. So like the MOT on a car, it passed on that day, but it doesn't mean it's roadworthy on the day you buy it. So unless the contract verbal or written, is that it the pony is suitable for the height class, which will come down to how it was advertised and described, it could be difficult to prove.
I would tell them I was going to the small claims court for the difference in value, between under and over height, and associated costs, and see if there is room for negotiation.
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/small-claims-court/
You could try BSPS WHP, they have height classes, to get it out.


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## criso (17 May 2021)

Lois Lame said:



			She sounds lovely. I'm going to suggest the unmentionable (feeling brave this morning). Why not go ahead and compete in the bigger class even though it's all a bit annoying? Maybe she'll do brilliantly. It seems a shame that this cutie could get into wrong hands.
		
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Wouldn't part of the issue be that there isn't a bigger class?  If you had a pony that measured out of the 128 class you could jump in the 138 class albeit at a disadvantage against full up ponies however after 148 you are then into adult/horse classes which is a much bigger ask.


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## ycbm (17 May 2021)

honetpot said:



			I think it's like buying a car without a valid MOT, you either factor in the cost of the MOT, and the fact its may not pass, or you buy with enough knowledge that you can sort it.
		
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I think the analogy is buying a car where the seller tells you it will definitely pass the MOT and then finding that it won't and it's going to cost a lot of money to get back on the road and you'll never be allowed to drive it on a motorway.
.


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## WelshD (17 May 2021)

If they advertised a pony as a 148cm jumping pony then surely the onus is on them to prove they didn't mis-advertise

These ponies go for top whack so its a bit more vital than them just shaking their heads and saying that it measured as 146.something two years ago and washing their hands of the situation - they should have sticked the pony at the yard seen it would be close and had it remeasured before guaranteeing it as a 148 contender with a LHC

Id ask them to to take the pony back, prepare him for remeasure then remeasure at their cost as what you bought is not what was advertised. There is a huge difference in price between a 148 than a 151 so its in their interests to do this

That's of course assuming the JMB would accept another measurement so close to the previous one as I understand they recorded it rather than giving you the option to walk away


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## honetpot (17 May 2021)

ycbm said:



			I think the analogy is buying a car where the seller tells you it will definitely pass the MOT and then finding that it won't and it's going to cost a lot of money to get back on the road and you'll never be allowed to drive it on a motorway.
.
		
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Unless you have knowledge anyone who takes the sellers word that it will pass an MOT is naive, especially if they are paying full MOT prices.
I usually buy without a vetting, but I factor how much if I would lose should it have a problem. I buy budget cars with a full MOT privately, but expect to spend  at least £500 sorting out anything that's likely to be wrong with it, I am not a mechanic, and it would have to be sorted at the local garage. The MOT just makes it legal to tax, insure and drive it to the garage, as long as it's safe to drive on the road. At the end of their life with me they are sold as spares or repair, with one month's MOT, so they can drive it to a garage or home if they want.


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## maya2008 (17 May 2021)

Perhaps the difference between what the horse is worth now and what you paid would be less than the limit for small claims? You could take out as a horse and unaff, get it seen and sell it  to a small adult (I have jumped 14.1hh ponies in adult classes no issues so it is possible) then claim for the difference? Obviously with legal advice first!


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## ycbm (17 May 2021)

honetpot said:



			Unless you have knowledge anyone who takes the sellers word that it will pass an MOT is naive, especially if they are paying full MOT prices.
I usually buy without a vetting, but I factor how much if I would lose should it have a problem. I buy budget cars with a full MOT privately, but expect to spend  at least £500 sorting out anything that's likely to be wrong with it, I am not a mechanic, and it would have to be sorted at the local garage. The MOT just makes it legal to tax, insure and drive it to the garage, as long as it's safe to drive on the road. At the end of their life with me they are sold as spares or repair, with one month's MOT, so they can drive it to a garage or home if they want.
		
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But if the seller is a dealer the buyer is are entitled (even if naive)   to take the dealer's word and they have the support of the law in claiming a refund.


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## ycbm (17 May 2021)

maya2008 said:



			Perhaps the difference between what the horse is worth now and what you paid would be less than the limit for small claims? You could take out as a horse and unaff, get it seen and sell it  to a small adult (I have jumped 14.1hh ponies in adult classes no issues so it is possible) then claim for the difference? Obviously with legal advice first!
		
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Good thought!

A friend of mine did this.  He bought a point to pointer described as "fit and ready to race" and found that the horse stopped on the spot as soon as any other horse came up along side.  He was told to sell the horse at auction to establish its market value and claim the difference.  He won his case.

As a note of caution,  though,  the seller bankrupted themselves and never paid a penny.


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## Fred66 (17 May 2021)

From the sounds of it the money you spent is very significant and you need to speak to an equine solicitor immediately, a few hundred thrown their way for an initial idea of your options is probably money well spent.
If she believes it’s because you didn’t prepare it properly then she should be able to get it measured in and she can then sell it as per her original advert, if she believes she won’t be able to do this then she has potentially misrepresented. However she did truthfully tell you it measured 146.8 on its last recorded measurement and if you did not state that the sale was dependent upon it measuring in at 148 or less then she may well not have misrepresented the sale at all.


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## paddy555 (17 May 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			Yes. it was put on the advert and in messages to me when I queried height.
		
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"it" was the word approx. I may be wrong but   the pony advertised for sale may have been advertised as approx. 148 jumping pony. (red's post 78 also refers) that would be a red light to a potential buyer to get it measured. 

I also wonder if the pony was sold by a dealer. Was it part of the dealer's stock or alternatively was it some sort of sales livery or similar arrangement and the professional was selling at her yard for a private owner.


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## Lexie01 (17 May 2021)

paddy555 said:



			"it" was the word approx. I may be wrong but   the pony advertised for sale may have been advertised as approx. 148 jumping pony. (red's post 78 also refers) that would be a red light to a potential buyer to get it measured.

I also wonder if the pony was sold by a dealer. Was it part of the dealer's stock or alternatively was it some sort of sales livery or similar arrangement and the professional was selling at her yard for a private owner.
		
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paddy555 said:



			"it" was the word approx. I may be wrong but   the pony advertised for sale may have been advertised as approx. 148 jumping pony. (red's post 78 also refers) that would be a red light to a potential buyer to get it measured.

I also wonder if the pony was sold by a dealer. Was it part of the dealer's stock or alternatively was it some sort of sales livery or similar arrangement and the professional was selling at her yard for a private owner.
		
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The advert started with 'top class 148 showjumper' - very clear.
During the first few messages I had with the seller I asked if she had measured in at 148 as we couldn't go above it for juniors - although we needed a full up 148. I got the answer that yes she is a full up 148. I then saw the video she sent and I asked again as the horse looked on the big side.  That is when she told me that the horse had had 2 annual measurements and that she measures 'no problem'.
Hope that helps clarify the situation


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## Lexie01 (17 May 2021)

Fred66 said:



			From the sounds of it the money you spent is very significant and you need to speak to an equine solicitor immediately, a few hundred thrown their way for an initial idea of your options is probably money well spent.
If she believes it’s because you didn’t prepare it properly then she should be able to get it measured in and she can then sell it as per her original advert, if she believes she won’t be able to do this then she has potentially misrepresented. However she did truthfully tell you it measured 146.8 on its last recorded measurement and if you did not state that the sale was dependent upon it measuring in at 148 or less then she may well not have misrepresented the sale at all.
		
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Hi - I did specify that the pony couldn't be bigger than 148 as my daughter needed to ride her in juniors.
I will be speaking to solicitors tomorrow. Thanks x


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## Lexie01 (17 May 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			It’s not just the price the child can’t do pony classes .
		
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 we have 2 more years in juniors and didn't really want to jump seniors now if we could help it.


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## Ambers Echo (17 May 2021)

The horse is clearly not fit for purpose so I think this will boil down to whether you bought from a dealer or a private seller. A dealer must accept the horse back if it's not fit for purpose. Whether the dealer knew or not. A private seller is only under obligation to take the horse back if they knowingly misrepresented it. I hope you sort it out. It's a nightmare situation for you.


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## Dynamo (18 May 2021)

Lexie, a few people have mentioned 'misrepresentation' as the thing to rely on in any legal claim.  This applies to both professional and non-professional sellers.  The Sale of Goods Act concerns fitness for purpose and applies only to professional sellers.  Misrepresentation (which is completely different from fit for purpose in legal terms) applies to all sellers, and there are two forms of 'misrepresentation' to consider.  The first is fraudulent misrepresentation, so if you believe the seller knew that the pony was not strictly as advertised, the second is negligent misrepresentation, where the seller is responsible even if they did not know.  This is important.  It means that if the pony is not exactly as described in information that you relied upon to make the purchase, regardless of whether the seller knew or not, you can return the pony and be fully refunded.  You need to be able to prove it.  If the advert describes the pony as 148cm and if you relied on the advert and the things you were told by the seller about the pony's record in 148cm classes and so on, then it doesn't actually matter when the pony grew, how the height certificates were obtained, or anything else.  All that matters is that the pony was advertised as 148cm, that you relied on that information because a full life height JMB certificate was not available, and that the pony is actually 151cm.  This constitutes negligent misrepresentation because the onus is on the seller to be accurate at the time of the sale, especially knowing that the height is of material value and importance.  It doesn't necessarily mean that they attempted any malpractice, but simply that there was a mistake, that they failed to provide accurate validation of something that was critical to the value of the animal and to the sale, and it's the seller's mistake, not yours.  If, however, the advert says APPROXIMATELY 148cm, or 148cm subject to JMB confirmation, then there has been no negligent misrepresentation because the wording suggests that the height is not being represented as definitive. Does that all make sense?

If your decision is to return the pony, and it IS your decision, you need a good equestrian lawyer to put this in writing for you, to state that you intend to return the pony on the grounds of negligent misrepresentation and demand a full refund.

How horrible to find yourself in this position, for all concerned, the pony and your daughter.


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## Lois Lame (18 May 2021)

ycbm said:



			Also,  there is a question of value here,  the pony is worth thousands less if it's over height.
.
		
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Yes, I understand that. I just couldn't help liking the sound of that 'pony' and want the best for her.


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## Tracking_up (18 May 2021)

fetlock said:



			A previous height dispute which ended up in court.

https://andersonstrathern.co.uk/news-insight/the-sale-of-a-pony-a-judicial-neigh-for-the-purchaser/

Click to expand...

Just a note of caution about reliance on this case. If you are based in England or Wales, it's a Scottish case and hence is a different legal jurisdiction.  it may be of interest, but not legally binding in an English/Welsh court


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## Lexie01 (18 May 2021)

Dynamo said:



			Lexie, a few people have mentioned 'misrepresentation' as the thing to rely on in any legal claim.  This applies to both professional and non-professional sellers.  The Sale of Goods Act concerns fitness for purpose and applies only to professional sellers.  Misrepresentation (which is completely different from fit for purpose in legal terms) applies to all sellers, and there are two forms of 'misrepresentation' to consider.  The first is fraudulent misrepresentation, so if you believe the seller knew that the pony was not strictly as advertised, the second is negligent misrepresentation, where the seller is responsible even if they did not know.  This is important.  It means that if the pony is not exactly as described in information that you relied upon to make the purchase, regardless of whether the seller knew or not, you can return the pony and be fully refunded.  You need to be able to prove it.  If the advert describes the pony as 148cm and if you relied on the advert and the things you were told by the seller about the pony's record in 148cm classes and so on, then it doesn't actually matter when the pony grew, how the height certificates were obtained, or anything else.  All that matters is that the pony was advertised as 148cm, that you relied on that information because a full life height JMB certificate was not available, and that the pony is actually 151cm.  This constitutes negligent misrepresentation because the onus is on the seller to be accurate at the time of the sale, especially knowing that the height is of material value and importance.  It doesn't necessarily mean that they attempted any malpractice, but simply that there was a mistake, that they failed to provide accurate validation of something that was critical to the value of the animal and to the sale, and it's the seller's mistake, not yours.  If, however, the advert says APPROXIMATELY 148cm, or 148cm subject to JMB confirmation, then there has been no negligent misrepresentation because the wording suggests that the height is not being represented as definitive. Does that all make sense?

If your decision is to return the pony, and it IS your decision, you need a good equestrian lawyer to put this in writing for you, to state that you intend to return the pony on the grounds of negligent misrepresentation and demand a full refund.

How horrible to find yourself in this position, for all concerned, the pony and your daughter.
		
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Thank you so much for this. This is a perfect summary of the situation and really clarifies our position in law. I have contacted an equine solicitor this morning. I think we are very much in the negligent misrepresentation area. Thank you again x


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## marmalade76 (19 May 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			Thank you so much for this. This is a perfect summary of the situation and really clarifies our position in law. I have contacted an equine solicitor this morning. I think we are very much in the negligent misrepresentation area. Thank you again x
		
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Best of luck.


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## Teaboy (19 May 2021)

I can’t see how you wouldn’t win in court, you bought a 14.2 specifically to SJ in pony classes, the fact it doesn’t measure in to do that surely means they have to refund?


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## Gloi (19 May 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			The pony measured 15.1 on the stick it’s difficult to get rid of three inches .
		
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I thought it was 151cm not 15.1h


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## CanteringCarrot (19 May 2021)

Teaboy said:



			I can’t see how you wouldn’t win in court, you bought a 14.2 specifically to SJ in pony classes, the fact it doesn’t measure in to do that surely means they have to refund?
		
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I could see how the buyer potentially wouldn't win. This is why a proper solicitor is really needed. It's all in the details and the law. Could be straight forward as you think, but there are a few possible hang ups.


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## marmalade76 (19 May 2021)

I bought one that had been jumped in ponies then measured 151cm and was sold as a horse so I'd say it's unlikely to measure in from that.


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## ihatework (20 May 2021)

marmalade76 said:



			I bought one that had been jumped in ponies then measured 151cm and was sold as a horse so I'd say it's unlikely to measure in from that.
		
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Whereas in contrast, a friend of mine evented one that (unofficially) measured 152 and had originally been intended as a 148. The owners wanted it sold, it was advertised correctly and the buyers took a punt and somehow got a cert at 148. I don’t like to think how mind.

These cases really aren’t cut and dried. 

OP - when this is resolved, either way, would be nice to know the outcome.


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## Ambers Echo (20 May 2021)

Dynamo said:



			Lexie, a few people have mentioned 'misrepresentation' as the thing to rely on in any legal claim.  This applies to both professional and non-professional sellers.  The Sale of Goods Act concerns fitness for purpose and applies only to professional sellers.  Misrepresentation (which is completely different from fit for purpose in legal terms) applies to all sellers, and there are two forms of 'misrepresentation' to consider.  The first is fraudulent misrepresentation, so if you believe the seller knew that the pony was not strictly as advertised, the second is negligent misrepresentation, where the seller is responsible even if they did not know.  This is important.  It means that if the pony is not exactly as described in information that you relied upon to make the purchase, regardless of whether the seller knew or not, you can return the pony and be fully refunded.  You need to be able to prove it.  If the advert describes the pony as 148cm and if you relied on the advert and the things you were told by the seller about the pony's record in 148cm classes and so on, then it doesn't actually matter when the pony grew, how the height certificates were obtained, or anything else.  All that matters is that the pony was advertised as 148cm, that you relied on that information because a full life height JMB certificate was not available, and that the pony is actually 151cm.  This constitutes negligent misrepresentation because the onus is on the seller to be accurate at the time of the sale, especially knowing that the height is of material value and importance.  It doesn't necessarily mean that they attempted any malpractice, but simply that there was a mistake, that they failed to provide accurate validation of something that was critical to the value of the animal and to the sale, and it's the seller's mistake, not yours.  If, however, the advert says APPROXIMATELY 148cm, or 148cm subject to JMB confirmation, then there has been no negligent misrepresentation because the wording suggests that the height is not being represented as definitive. Does that all make sense?

If your decision is to return the pony, and it IS your decision, you need a good equestrian lawyer to put this in writing for you, to state that you intend to return the pony on the grounds of negligent misrepresentation and demand a full refund.

How horrible to find yourself in this position, for all concerned, the pony and your daughter.
		
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This is very interesting. Thanks for posting.


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## Hallo2012 (20 May 2021)

just to add in that having schooled ponies on a fair few showing yards for years ive seen a LOT of 142-144 (on the stick at home)ponies measure in at 137cm for the welsh classes........so i am not sure that getting this one to 148 will be impossible actually........albeit please dont take that as me saying i agree with the HOW, i dont.....


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## Lexie01 (21 May 2021)

Thank you all so much for your responses to my post. There has been no resolution to date. The owner is still refusing to refund or discuss matters further. I have formally instructed a solicitor today (after having telephone conversations prior to this)  to start proceedings. I will let you know what happens. Thank you all again x


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## Ambers Echo (21 May 2021)

Keep in touch. I'd be interested to know how things turn out and I hope its resolved for you.


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## Gingerwitch (28 May 2021)

Wondered how you are getting on OP.


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## Lexie01 (3 June 2021)

Hi All,
well we have been called back for a further JMB measurement following their panel review due to the large discrepancies in measurements. Will have to wait another 2 weeks.
I have also instructed an excellent equine solicitor incase she doesn't measure in.
I will keep you all posted. Thanks everyone for all your help xx


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## millikins (3 June 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			Hi All,
well we have been called back for a further JMB measurement following their panel review due to the large discrepancies in measurements. Will have to wait another 2 weeks.
I have also instructed an excellent equine solicitor incase she doesn't measure in.
I will keep you all posted. Thanks everyone for all your help xx
		
Click to expand...

Good luck, I hope for you and your pony that she measures in.


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## Lexie01 (3 June 2021)

millikins said:



			Good luck, I hope for you and your pony that she measures in.
		
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Thank you - so do I.


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## Lanky Loll (4 June 2021)

Good luck on remeasuring.  It's years since I had to get anything measured but have seen all sorts done to get them under.
One thing you can try to SEE if you have a hope of the pony measuring is dope it and measure it.  The ultra relaxed pony will then measure at the lowest it's possible for it to go - this is NOT A LEGAL measurement - it's only try it at home.  If it still doesn't measure at 148, there's no hope of it ever measuring regardless of what anyone would be prepared (or not) to do.
Having jumped against some rather large *cough* 14.2s back in the day (and having been in the line up on one that I knew measured 15.1 on a normal day - and been the smallest one in the line up ) I'm all too aware of what has gone on before.


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## Gingerwitch (4 June 2021)

Thanks for the update, you sound such a lovely owner for the pony (or any at that). I do hope it comes good.
Keep us posted 
Xx


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## Lexie01 (6 June 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Thanks for the update, you sound such a lovely owner for the pony (or any at that). I do hope it comes good.
Keep us posted
Xx
		
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Thank you for your kind words x


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## Lexie01 (17 June 2021)

It's re measuring day today. Keeping everything crossed x


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## MrsCentaur (17 June 2021)

What time is the pony being measured, @Lexie01?  Keeping everything crossed for you!


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## MuddyMonster (17 June 2021)

Fingers crossed for you!


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## Goldenstar (17 June 2021)

fingers crossed


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## Keira 8888 (17 June 2021)

Good luck! Everything crossed 🤞


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## wren123 (17 June 2021)

Good luck


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## Breagha (17 June 2021)

Good luck!


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## SatansLittleHelper (17 June 2021)

Hope it all goes to plan x


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## View (17 June 2021)

Popped in looking for an update.  Will pop back later.


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## ycbm (17 June 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			It's re measuring day today. Keeping everything crossed x
		
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🤞🤞🤞


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## The Fuzzy Furry (17 June 2021)

So, what's the verdict?


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## Jenko109 (17 June 2021)

Oh do hurry up. It's another one of these keeping me in suspense threads and I'm not patient!


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## LJW2709 (17 June 2021)

Keep popping back eagerly waiting for an update! Keeping everything crossed for you!


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## neddy man (17 June 2021)

Guess if it was good news we would have heard by now, or maybe no result due to technical difficulties,  like everyone else I  was hoping for good news for you.


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## rara007 (17 June 2021)

Waiting to hear too


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## Goldenstar (18 June 2021)

i really hope this has gone the right way .


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## Spirit2021 (18 June 2021)

Fingers crossed


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## The Fuzzy Furry (18 June 2021)

I'd be interested to hear the outcome,  measuring would have been completed before 5pm and results immediately known to parties there.
Unfortunately we dont have the registered name of the pony so it cannot be checked on the jmb site.
However, the last remeasure on their site was 27th May, which in itself is odd as remeasures go up quite quickly.


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## Tiddlypom (18 June 2021)

Any update?

Still nothing showing on the JMB re-measurement results page.


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## Lexie01 (18 June 2021)

Sorry everyone. You have probably already guessed but she still didn't measure in. Absolutely gutted. I have no issue with JMB - everything was done very professionally - 2 vets plus a JMB representative. The pony is just too big! So now we have a very small horse with high withers.
A solicitors letter is already in the post to the original owner. She has 7 days to respond so I will let you know what happens - again. Thank you all so much for your support xx


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## Michen (18 June 2021)

So sorry. As someone who had to take an absolute witch of a dealer to court (albiet my situation was different as it was a known rearer sold as a schoolmistress) I fully appreciate the stress.

Mine did settle before court luckily but I had to file the claim etc.

Best of luck.


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## ycbm (18 June 2021)

I hope you get your money back,  you have been missold.  I think GS is right that you have a text admitting that by the seller.  Very good luck in pursuing this.  
.


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## Gingerwitch (18 June 2021)

So sorry, would you keep pony at a discount  ?


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## MyBoyChe (18 June 2021)

What an awful situation to be in, especially as the pony (small horse) is perfect in every other way.  Sadly though, if she is too big, she is too big.  Like Michen, I started the process of taking a dealer to court for a similar offence, perfect family horse/safe for all the family, who napped and reared as soon as you put your bum in the saddle, again mine agreed to take the mare back and refund me before it got that far but its horribly stressful and all the time you have a living breathing animal to look after.  I hope you manage to get this sorted quickly now without too much more stress


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## The Fuzzy Furry (18 June 2021)

I wish you all the best, but I honestly cant see you winning this.
The pony/horse was 1.2cm below max height as an early 6 yr old, over 2 years ago.  I would have wanted a current cert on something like that and would have walked if it wasn't forthcoming.
I know the pony ticked every box, but height is a huge one for comp purposes in pony classes.

Yes, easy to say after the event,  but I have dealt in ponies through the 80s for over 20 years, its 2nd nature when needing animals to measure in for clients.

I'd be willing to even bet that it didnt have a life height because they guessed it might not measure.  Caveat Emptor.

Good luck tho.


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## ycbm (18 June 2021)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I wish you all the best, but I honestly cant see you winning this.
The pony/horse was 1.2cm below max height as an early 6 yr old, over 2 years ago.  I would have wanted a current cert on something like that and would have walked if it wasn't forthcoming.
I know the pony ticked every box, but height is a huge one for comp purposes in pony classes.

Yes, easy to say after the event,  but I have dealt in ponies through the 80s for over 20 years, its 2nd nature when needing animals to measure in for clients.

I'd be willing to even bet that it didnt have a life height because they guessed it might not measure.  Caveat Emptor.

Good luck tho.
		
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Why wouldn't she win if the pony was sold as currently suitable for 14.2 jumping classes? 
.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (18 June 2021)

ycbm said:



			Why wouldn't she win if the pony was sold as currently suitable for 14.2 jumping classes?
.
		
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Because a good to top level pony without a height cert is fishy. Buyer ought to have got this sorted pre purchase or on receipt to get returned if not measured in within x time.
Despite covid,  jmb pads have been working since Feb so seller had no excuse to not get measured, which would ring big alarm bells to me.


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## Amymay (18 June 2021)

Doesn’t matter how many alarm bells went off. Pony was miss-sold.


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## CanteringCarrot (18 June 2021)

Yeahhhh this is one of those mis-sold vs due diligence debates. Sometimes the threshold for something being mis-sold is not met, even though it would seem that would be the case. There can be some responsibility on the buyer as well. I'd have to know the exact details (see the original ad, read all communications between the parties) in order to reach a conclusion here. It may seem obvious, but it isn't always. Which is why legal guidance from a professional is needed.

Either way, I hope the horse ends up in a good home in the end, wherever that may be.


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## ycbm (18 June 2021)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Because a good to top level pony without a height cert is fishy. Buyer ought to have got this sorted pre purchase or on receipt to get returned if not measured in within x time.
Despite covid,  jmb pads have been working since Feb so seller had no excuse to not get measured, which would ring big alarm bells to me.
		
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Buyer made it clear that a 14.2 pony was required for age/height restricted classes.  Business seller sold over height pony. 

Buyer beware does not apply consumer law does.
.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (18 June 2021)

ycbm said:



			Buyer made it clear that a 14.2 pony was required for age/height restricted classes.  Business seller sold over height pony.

Buyer beware does not apply consumer law does.
.
		
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See CC's post above,  this needs careful examining and none of us have all the info,  it's not as clear cut as you might think or hope.


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## ycbm (18 June 2021)

Just judging by what the OP has told us,  including what she said she has recorded in text messages,  that's all any of us can do.

Ref CC's post, there is no due diligence debate in a business sale, only in a private one.

You appear to be blaming the buyer for trusting what a business seller has told her?
.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (18 June 2021)

ycbm said:



			Just judging by what the OP has told us,  including what she said she has recorded in text messages,  that's all any of us can do.

There is no due diligence debate in a business sale, only in a private one.

You appear to be blaming the buyer for trusting what a business seller has told her?
.
		
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I'm not 'blaming' but was just trying to point out that most people buying an animal to compete in height related classes ensure that it conforms to requirements,  in this case a current jmb would have sufficed. However, neither party appeared to have thought about mentioning this, whether as a considered point of negligence or being unknowing, pre sale or at point of sale.


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## ycbm (18 June 2021)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I'm not 'blaming' but was just trying to point out that most people buying an animal to compete in height related classes ensure that it conforms to requirements,  in this case a current jmb would have sufficed. However, neither party appeared to have thought about mentioning this, whether as a considered point of negligence or being unknowing, pre sale or at point of sale.
		
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It's irrelevant,  surely.?

Seller had every financial reason to obfuscate and hope the sale would stick with a naive buyer,  given that the price difference between one mm under and one mm over height is many £000's

Seller was legally entitled to trust a business seller, whether or not that was naive. Being unknowing is a defence only for a private sale not a business one. 

I hope the buyer wins if she goes to court.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (18 June 2021)

ycbm said:



			It's irrelevant,  surely.?

Seller had every financial reason to obfuscate and hope the sale would stick with a naive buyer,  given that the price difference between one mm under and one mm over height is many £000's

Seller was legally entitled to trust a business seller, whether or not that was naive. Being unknowing is a defence only for a private sale not a business one.

I hope the buyer wins if she goes to court.
		
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Well, then I'm sure that will happen, you are very sure it will.
I was merely offering a different point of view, which you are very happy to discredit,  based on your own findings. 

OP, as I said a good number of posts ago, good luck.


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## ycbm (18 June 2021)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Well, then I'm sure that will happen, you are very sure it will.
I was merely offering a different point of view, which you are very happy to discredit,  based on your own findings.

OP, as I said a good number of posts ago, good luck.
		
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Sorry if you are offended,  I'm not trying to "discredit", I just don't understand your argument in relation to a business sale.

I hope the buyer will win but with court cases nothing is guaranteed,  sadly.
.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (18 June 2021)

ycbm said:



			Sorry if you are offended,  I'm not trying to "discredit", I just don't understand your argument in relation to a business sale.

I hope the buyer will win but with court cases nothing is guaranteed,  sadly.
.
		
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I'm not offended but a little exasperated. A business sale still requires due diligence from both vendor and purchaser. Night.


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## ycbm (18 June 2021)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I'm not offended but a little exasperated. A business sale still requires due diligence from both vendor and purchaser. Night.
		
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But that's not true.  A business seller does  not "require",   legally,  any due diligence from the buyer.  Legally,  the horse has to be what a business seller says it is.

It's really wise to do your due diligence whoever the seller is,  but the law is clear.  A private seller can  legally unknowingly sell a horse which is not fit for purpose but a business seller cannot.

I'm sorry FF, I'm not trying to be contrary about this,  it's a very important point of law.  It's what makes horses bought from a dealer (not as an agent,  owned by the dealer)  worth more than a horse from a private seller.
.


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## I'm Dun (18 June 2021)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I'm not offended but a little exasperated. A business sale still requires due diligence from both vendor and purchaser. Night.
		
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Common sense says it does, the law says it doesnt.


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## Spirit2021 (18 June 2021)

I can actually see where  fuzzy is coming from the pony was sold over 2 years ago realistically it kind of stupid for looking for a refund now. If you tried to return clothes that you bought from 2 years old they will tell you to f## off. You only have a certain time limit .  Sounds like op doesn’t want the horse anymore so it a easier way to get rid than selling .


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## ester (18 June 2021)

Sold 2 years ago? Where did you get that idea from? OP says few weeks.. .


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## only_me (18 June 2021)

horrible situation to be in OP, feel for you. If you can’t get money back/pony back go seller then can always try as a WHP if talented - don’t forget they have 153cm as their limit.
They sell for good money too.

Impartial person playing devils advocate here -
Surely ensuring the height is suitable is a huge part of buyers responsibility?
Especially at that level, where height is as important as the vetting.

The seller could state sold in good faith, pony did measure in by a good bit at the last official measuring. It would be hard to prove that the seller stood a stick to the pony prior to sale and knew was overheight.

The other issue could be that there are a *lot* of massive 148cms out there competing, so if the seller was comparing pony to pony there may not have been a huge difference.

I think it could be difficult defining a ”mis-sold” pony based on height, but its good you have the texts as well to back you up.

Fingers crossed you get this whole thing sorted OP, not a pleasant situation at all.

eg.  This pony (con x)had a Life cert as 148 and did pony eventing & SJ so was measured regularly at competitions. I’m just over 5f6 and he is on a very slight hill. His new owners had sent him back to me to keep ticking over while they were away so is also pretty  fit in this photo.







You can see why it’s hard to judge height from other ponies stood up though.


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## I'm Dun (19 June 2021)

Spirit2021 said:



			I can actually see where  fuzzy is coming from the pony was sold over 2 years ago realistically it kind of stupid for looking for a refund now. If you tried to return clothes that you bought from 2 years old they will tell you to f## off. You only have a certain time limit .  Sounds like op doesn’t want the horse anymore so it a easier way to get rid than selling .
		
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I have not once seen you post anything factually correct or helpful in any way. I cant decide if you are a clueless child or a really bad troll.


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## CanteringCarrot (19 June 2021)

ycbm said:



			Sorry if you are offended,  I'm not trying to "discredit", I just don't understand your argument in relation to a business sale.

I hope the buyer will win but with court cases nothing is guaranteed,  sadly.
.
		
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Exactly the point here. "With court cases nothing is guaranteed" that's exactly what myself and I think TFF are trying to say.


For sales in the UK, the buyer never ever bears an responsibility and due diligence never applies, can you site which part of the law leads to that conclusion? I have an idea of what it could be, but I'm not sure.


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## CanteringCarrot (19 June 2021)

ycbm said:



			But that's not true.  A business seller does  not "require",   legally,  any due diligence from the buyer.  Legally,  the horse has to be what a business seller says it is.

It's really wise to do your due diligence whoever the seller is,  but the law is clear.  A private seller can  legally unknowingly sell a horse which is not fit for purpose but a business seller cannot.

I'm sorry FF, I'm not trying to be contrary about this,  it's a very important point of law.  It's what makes horses bought from a dealer (not as an agent,  owned by the dealer)  worth more than a horse from a private seller.
.
		
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Again, details. The horse might be what the seller said it was. IF she said it measured 2 years ago or at age x or whatever it was. With one side of the story, and no hard evidence (ad, communications, etc.) We don't exactly know.

I don't know that the seller ever said "pony currently measures under/within to qualify as a pony."

If I were selling I would've said, she measured at x time, but now I'm not so sure. If you are looking for a pony to compete, a measurement should be apart of your pre purchase exam. Or I as the seller would've done that to know what I'm selling. But I'm honest and it often makes me lose money 😆

If the seller writes "For sale: pony that measured under x height" that's not technically wrong. The pony did measure under...at one point. The seller did disclose this (that the measurement was older). Is it a bit misleading? Possibly. Enough to win a case? Probably not, but depends on a few things.

My point is, we can play armchair lawyers all day and we all want the best for the OP as well as the horse, but we just can't say for certain. That's all I'm saying.

If you hold the strong opinion that the buyer can take it to court and win, that's fine. It's your opinion. There are other opinions out there that also present plausible outcomes though.

The thing with the law is that "it depends" and can seem black and white, and sometimes it is, but often it is not. 

While I don't practice UK law, exactly (Int'l,  anti-terrorism, European), I do have experience with raising my eyebrows when reading decisions of the court 😅 and know the devil is in the details.

For the OP, it is definitely worth talking to a solicitor. Then depending on that outcome, bringing it to the court.


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## Ambers Echo (19 June 2021)

This thread was really interesting because of a clear legal explanation of 'negligent misrepresentation' that was provided and is (I believe) the route taken by the OP after consultation with a solicitor. I was not aware of it so nice to learn something new. If people now doubting she may have a case are genuinely interested I'd recommend scrolling up to read that part of the thread.


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## scats (19 June 2021)

Spirit2021 said:



			I can actually see where  fuzzy is coming from the pony was sold over 2 years ago realistically it kind of stupid for looking for a refund now. If you tried to return clothes that you bought from 2 years old they will tell you to f## off. You only have a certain time limit .  Sounds like op doesn’t want the horse anymore so it a easier way to get rid than selling .
		
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Have you read the thread??


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## Tiddlypom (19 June 2021)

AE, which post no was that re negligent representation?


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## Ambers Echo (19 June 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			AE, which post no was that re negligent representation?
		
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Post number 121


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## Goldenstar (19 June 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			Sorry everyone. You have probably already guessed but she still didn't measure in. Absolutely gutted. I have no issue with JMB - everything was done very professionally - 2 vets plus a JMB representative. The pony is just too big! So now we have a very small horse with high withers.
A solicitors letter is already in the post to the original owner. She has 7 days to respond so I will let you know what happens - again. Thank you all so much for your support xx
		
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I am sad for you but not surprised .
You have been done .
I think you just need to go through the process and you will win .
Wrap the small horse in cotton wool and keep her safe .
Don't worry about her future she can go on to have a happy life with a small adult .


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## Goldenstar (19 June 2021)

I'm Dun said:



			Common sense says it does, the law says it doesnt.
		
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This is the nub of this case.
Even from the detail on this thread I can see loads that a good lawyer will use to romp all over seller .
The dealer just needs to take the pony back .
She has addmitted she won’t take the pony back because it’s still a horse with me ,
theres loads of other things that will lose her the case .

OP will to accept she needs to sharpen up and take off her rose tinted specs when buying horses.
Never assume when buying a horse ,people are expert at declaring something without doing so in upfront way .


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## ycbm (19 June 2021)

only_me said:



			Surely ensuring the height is suitable is a huge part of buyers responsibility?
Especially at that level, where height is as important as the vetting.
		
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In law,  if the seller is a business seller,  there is no such legal responsibility.




			The seller could state sold in good faith, pony did measure in by a good bit at the last official measuring. It would be hard to prove that the seller stood a stick to the pony prior to sale and knew was overheight.
		
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As a business seller,  they do not have to be proven to know anything.  In consumer law, the pony is still missold if the seller honestly believes it will measure in but doesn't.





			I think it could be difficult defining a ”mis-sold” pony based on height, but its good you have the texts as well to back you up.
		
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It's a subtle difference,  but the pony wasn't missold on height.  It was missold on the ability to compete in height restricted classes.  There is a huge difference between a pony that can enter affiliated 14.2 classes and one that can't, however small the height difference.   A pony that measures only 2mm over would never be deemed missold unless that 2mm put it out of height restricted classes.

There is also a case which was won against a dealer near me where the maximum height specified by the buyer was 17 hands (to fit in his trailer,  I think) and he bought the horse and took it home and measured it some time later and it was over.


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## ycbm (19 June 2021)

I feel a bit sorry for the child,  these classes are age related as well and she is losing precious time while a dealer tries to cheat her mother. 
.


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## CanteringCarrot (19 June 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			This thread was really interesting because of a clear legal explanation of 'negligent misrepresentation' that was provided and is (I believe) the route taken by the OP after consultation with a solicitor. I was not aware of it so nice to learn something new. If people now doubting she may have a case are genuinely interested I'd recommend scrolling up to read that part of the thread.
		
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Erm, there was no definite route defined by the solicitor yet. The OP said "I think" so I haven't seen anything definitive.

I scrolled up and read that part of the thread.

Whole post #121 that was so important is very informative and provides and path that the OP could take, that doesn't mean the case is clear cut. It very well could be, and that'd be great for the OP.

Maybe you know, but I still don't know exactly how the pony was advertised and direct wording. So that's where my question lies.

If the OP specifically said she was buying the pony based off of it measuring in, but with no actual measurement, and the buyer said "she will measure in when you measure her" and the buyer is a professional, maybe there is something there. However, when we hear one side of the story and don't see all evidence, we simply cannot know.

If you think those of us who are doubting are totally wrong, that's fine. I am not doubting nor am I saying there is a definite case in favor of the OP,  I am saying while the law appears to be clear, the devil can be in the details.

Edit: maybe you forgot about the post referencing a case in the beginning of this thread: Post #4

https://andersonstrathern.co.uk/news-insight/the-sale-of-a-pony-a-judicial-neigh-for-the-purchaser/

Details.


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## CanteringCarrot (19 June 2021)

ycbm said:



			I feel a bit sorry for the child,  these classes are age related as well and she is losing precious time while a dealer tries to cheat her mother.
.
		
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Yeah, it's always the kid and/or the horse thst often "lose" in these cases. 🙁

It's unfortunate.

Sometimes, a dealer (cars, horses, whatever) is not legally wrong but is morally/ethically wrong. If that makes sense. Not saying that is the case here, but it's sh***y. You're left with no recourse legally, but have been cheated nonetheless.


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## Ambers Echo (19 June 2021)

I mentioned that issue again because it was news to me and because other posts since then keep referring to the difference between dealers and private sellers/mis selling etc

I had always believed - as other seem to- that private sellers only have to operate in good faith and it's very much buyer beware. I was not aware of negligent misrepresentation which applied to private sellers as well as dealers. I'm not saying she'll win. That's what courts are for.


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## CanteringCarrot (19 June 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			I mentioned that issue again because it was news to me and because other posts since then keep referring to the difference between dealers and private sellers/mis selling etc

I had always believed - as other seem to- that private sellers only have to operate in good faith and it's very much buyer beware. I was not aware of negligent misrepresentation which applied to private sellers as well as dealers. I'm not saying she'll win. That's what courts are for.
		
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Ahhh, ok. Got it.


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## southerncomfort (19 June 2021)

I'm Dun said:



			I have not once seen you post anything factually correct or helpful in any way. I cant decide if you are a clueless child or a really bad troll.
		
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And if she is a child.....?

Thats a pretty nasty thing to say to anyone, especially a child.

You have the option of scrolling past comments you don't find useful.


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## only_me (19 June 2021)

ycbm said:



			In law,  if the seller is a business seller,  there is no such legal responsibility.
As a business seller,  they do not have to be proven to know anything.  In consumer law, the pony is still missold if the buyer honestly believes it will measure in but doesn't.

It's a subtle difference,  but the pony wasn't missold on height.  It was missold on the ability to compete in height restricted classes.  There is a huge difference between a pony that can enter affiliated 14.2 classes and one that can't, however small the height difference.   A pony that measures only 2mm over would never be deemed missold unless that 2mm put it out of height restricted classes.

There is also a case which was won against a dealer near me where the maximum height specified by the buyer was 17 hands (to fit in his trailer,  I think) and he bought the horse and took it home and measured it some time later and it was over.
		
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That’s interesting, thanks ycbm. Is that why a dealer then is less protected than a private seller?
I Have read through the thread and tried to understand it but consumer Law I’m not very clued up on.
Have to say in Ireland it does seem to be very much buyer beware even if from a dealer but there are probably some differences in the law here.

Interesting about the 17h horse! If they managed to win I can’t see why a pony wouldn’t have a good chance of going the right way for OP.


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## paddy555 (19 June 2021)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Maybe you know, but I still don't know exactly how the pony was advertised and direct wording. So that's where my question lies.
		
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exactly. Lots of conclusions can be reached but that is only on the info given on this thread. There is no audit trail. The original documents are needed.


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## spacefaer (19 June 2021)

I find it very telling that the vendor "could" have got a height cert for the pony this time but didn't. 
I would be fully of the opinion that they knew the pony wouldn't measure in which is why they didn't try. A failed measure would be recorded.


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## milliepops (19 June 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			And if she is a child.....?

Thats a pretty nasty thing to say to anyone, especially a child.

You have the option of scrolling past comments you don't find useful.
		
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we do, however that poster repeatedly makes unfounded or tactless statements even on potentially upsetting threads so they'd do well to be a bit more thoughtful about what they post.


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## ycbm (19 June 2021)

spacefaer said:



			I find it very telling that the vendor "could" have got a height cert for the pony this time but didn't.
I would be fully of the opinion that they knew the pony wouldn't measure in which is why they didn't try. A failed measure would be recorded.
		
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Absolutely.  They were hoping for a naive buyer and they found one.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (19 June 2021)

ycbm said:



			Absolutely.  They were hoping for a naive buyer and they found one.
		
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That's a very big assumption. 
Far better to stick to facts than posting as if you have knowledge of the vendor.


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## SO1 (19 June 2021)

I expect a professional would understand the market and would know buyers are desperate at the moment even buying unseen and someone would take the risk of buying without measuring first as they would be worried about missing out.

A professional would also know that a pony with a recent HC would be worth more than an unmeasured pony so perhaps they did have some doubts about the height. If you are advertising ponies as suitable for height restricted classes a HC would add value and make a pony easier to sell so if I was a pro or amateur even and I advertising for a certain market where height is an issue and confident that a pony would measure in I would invest in the certificate pre advertising. It is I think £90 for a certificate which is not that much and it could mean a quicker sale and you can add on a few hundred I would have thought for that as well to the price as well.

It is a sellers market at the moment and I expect a lot of buyers make get caught out as they take risks that perhaps they don't normally take as they get desperate for a horse or pony and everything selling so fast.



ycbm said:



			Absolutely.  They were hoping for a naive buyer and they found one.
		
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## Lexie01 (19 June 2021)

Hi, I obviously have to be careful now given that the case is with solicitors but I can confirm that the pony was sold as a top class 148 pony - not top 148 pony subject to LHC. The person selling is a professional. I queried the height of the pony in messages and it was stated that she would measure in without any problems. This ultimately is what the case rests on. The seller does not need to have knowingly misrepresented the height of the pony -  just negligently. In this case I believe Caveat Emptor does not apply.
Obviously lesson learned now is that I will always request a LHC.
My only excuse is that my daughters 148 pony had had to be retired. We were desperate to find her something to ride - the market is very fluid and fast atm. If I had requested a LH measurement I suspect the seller would simply have refused as there were many others waiting to try her. People are buying 148 ponies from videos currently which I think is mad but understandable because there are so few around. But as said lesson learned x


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## Clodagh (19 June 2021)

Best of luck with it all.


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## southerncomfort (19 June 2021)

milliepops said:



			we do, however that poster repeatedly makes unfounded or tactless statements even on potentially upsetting threads so they'd do well to be a bit more thoughtful about what they post.
		
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I don't disagree.  She is certainly guilty of not reading threads properly.

I just don't think its necessary to be so blunt and unkind.


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## ycbm (19 June 2021)

Lexie01 said:



			Hi, I obviously have to be careful now given that the case is with solicitors but I can confirm that the pony was sold as a top class 148 pony - not top 148 pony subject to LHC. The person selling is a professional. I queried the height of the pony in messages and it was stated that she would measure in without any problems. This ultimately is what the case rests on. The seller does not need to have knowingly misrepresented the height of the pony -  just negligently. In this case I believe Caveat Emptor does not apply.
Obviously lesson learned now is that I will always request a LHC.
My only excuse is that my daughters 148 pony had had to be retired. We were desperate to find her something to ride - the market is very fluid and fast atm. If I had requested a LH measurement I suspect the seller would simply have refused as there were many others waiting to try her. People are buying 148 ponies from videos currently which I think is mad but understandable because there are so few around. But as said lesson learned x
		
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Best of luck with this.  I hope it can be settled quickly out of court for the sake of all concerned.  
.


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## L&M (19 June 2021)

Sorry I have not followed the whole thread, but if it was me I would sell the horse on and find a more suitable height replacement, ensuring a measurement is taken at any pre purchase vetting.

I think you, the seller, and the pony, are all victims here and wouldn't place the blame on either side - find a nice home for the horse a and just mark it down to experience.

Good luck!


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## spacefaer (19 June 2021)

L&M said:



			Sorry I have not followed the whole thread, but if it was me I would sell the horse on and find a more suitable height replacement, ensuring a measurement is taken at any pre purchase vetting.

I think you, the seller, and the pony, are all victims here and wouldn't place the blame on either side - find a nice home for the horse a and just mark it down to experience.

Good luck!
		
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The trouble with this advice is the significant price difference between a 148 jumping pony and a nice 151cm small horse.


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## Upthecreek (19 June 2021)

L&M said:



			Sorry I have not followed the whole thread, but if it was me I would sell the horse on and find a more suitable height replacement, ensuring a measurement is taken at any pre purchase vetting.

I think you, the seller, and the pony, are all victims here and wouldn't place the blame on either side - find a nice home for the horse a and just mark it down to experience.

Good luck!
		
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But she paid a premium because it was supposedly a 148 pony and will lose a lot of money if she just sells it on. The seller is at fault because she sold a 148 pony that hasn’t measured in. The buyer is at fault because the size of the pony was critical & she didn’t buy one with a LHC. I think the buyer will be successful legally because she has proof of the seller stating that the pony would measure in. It hasn’t, therefore it was miss-sold. 

No vet would measure a pony at a pre-purchase vetting and guarantee the measurement to be 100% accurate for the purposes of measuring in for height classes.


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## Jenko109 (19 June 2021)

L&M said:



			Sorry I have not followed the whole thread, but if it was me I would sell the horse on and find a more suitable height replacement, ensuring a measurement is taken at any pre purchase vetting.

I think you, the seller, and the pony, are all victims here and wouldn't place the blame on either side - find a nice home for the horse a and just mark it down to experience.

Good luck!
		
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So just suck it up and lose a few thousand pounds? 

I hardly think so.


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## Melody Grey (19 June 2021)

Jenko109 said:



			So just suck it up and lose a few thousand pounds?

I hardly think so.
		
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A good few thousand and then some no doubt in this crazy market. 😬 

Good luck OP, my fingers are crossed for a good outcome for you.


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## criso (19 June 2021)

The seller refused to take the horse back because she has measured out which gives an indication of how much the value has changed.


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## SO1 (20 June 2021)

You only have to look on horsequest SJ to see the potential difference in price. 6 year SJ 148 around 25k and a 15.1 around 10k.



criso said:



			The seller refused to take the horse back because she has measured out which gives an indication of how much the value has changed.
		
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## L&M (21 June 2021)

Jenko109 said:



			So just suck it up and lose a few thousand pounds?

I hardly think so.
		
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As a lot of people have had to do when 'mis-sold' horses, (this forum is littered with them - I lost a lot of money on a Hoy's level show cob that had a nasty bolting habit) - it is a bitter, bitter pill but plenty of us have been there and done it.

Obviously if the buyer can prove the discrepancy and win a legal case then great, and wish her all the luck.


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## Lucky Snowball (9 May 2022)

Hi Lexie01, are you able to tell us how this was resolved please? I hope things have worked out.


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## Lexie01 (16 May 2022)

Lucky Snowball said:



			Hi Lexie01, are you able to tell us how this was resolved please? I hope things have worked out.
		
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Hi, I can happily report that we still have the 'horse'.
We did engage the services of an experienced equine solicitor.  She confirmed that we had a very strong case against the seller. We spent about 2 months exchanging letters between solicitors - but the seller simply refused to have the pony back and refund me the purchase price. Because the amount in question was above the small claims limit the next step would have been full court proceedings. Whilst we had a strong case and there was every likelihood we would have won  because of Covid it would have taken about 12-18mths for the case to come to court. 
Waiting this long just wasn't an option for us so we decided to pull out, buy an additional pony (that measured in) and keep the small horse to compete in seniors for a year - a sort of transition horse.
SO we basically lost about 2k in solicitors fees plus the purchase price but gained a lovely mare!


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## ycbm (16 May 2022)

Can you name and shame the dealer,  since the pony not measuring in was an undisputable matter of fact? 
.


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## Lexie01 (16 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			Can you name and shame the dealer,  since the pony not measuring in was an undisputable matter of fact?
.
		
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No - sorry. I went down the legal route because I didn't want to get into a social media slanging match and that still remains the case. I can say that she isn't named on any dodgy dealer websites.


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## ycbm (16 May 2022)

It was shameful behaviour on her part. 
.


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## Lucky Snowball (16 May 2022)

Thank you for the update. I'm glad you have found another pony. The horse sounds like she is a lovely addition to your family and will pay you back by keeping you all safe and giving you lots of fun.


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## Lexie01 (16 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			It was shameful behaviour on her part.
.
		
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Yes and a massive learning curve for us - never to buy a pony without a LHC! 
We basically spent nearly 20k on the original pony plus the price of another pony with a LHC plus 2k solicitors fees plus livery costs for 2 rather than the original 1. An expensive mistake. 
However I am a optimist/glass half full type of person and there are positives. The pony is a delight - lovely in everyday. She has a gentle soul - so we have also gained - just not financially! 






 A very gentle soul


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## millikins (16 May 2022)

I am sorry you've had such a grim and expensive experience. This may be a daft suggestion but would she event? There seem to be a lot more small horses/large ponies at high level eventing than pure SJ.


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## Lexie01 (16 May 2022)

millikins said:



			I am sorry you've had such a grim and expensive experience. This may be a daft suggestion but would she event? There seem to be a lot more small horses/large ponies at high level eventing than pure SJ.
		
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Hi, yes she can event. My daughter hates dressage and XC so ultimately I think she will probably go to an eventing home. She does a lovely dressage test.


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## millikins (16 May 2022)

Lexie01 said:



			Hi, yes she can event. My daughter hates dressage and XC so ultimately I think she will probably go to an eventing home. She does a lovely dressage test.
		
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Maybe you've inadvertently bought the next Little Tiger


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## Fred66 (16 May 2022)

The limit for small claims is now £10k, rather than claiming full purchase price could you have claimed the loss in value ?


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## Lois Lame (17 May 2022)

millikins said:



			Maybe you've inadvertently bought the next Little Tiger 

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I don't know Little Tiger, but it would be lovely if this little big mare goes onto great things.


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## ponynutz (17 May 2022)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I've had 2 that grew on in 2 years. One did  4.5cm and the other just over 5. It happens.
		
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Mine did too. 13hh when we bought her at 4 and is now 13.3hh bordering on 14hh - it does happen.

- Sorry just read the update! Glad it worked out semi-well for you OP.


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