# Introducing Toby



## Ambers Echo (27 May 2020)

Say hi to Toby....

I stopped actively looking and then he popped up on my FB feed just in the next town along from me.

He's a 5 yo unregistered irish horse. 15.1
Very, very sweet. We have had him since Saturday and so far all good.... He has been relaxed in the field and lying down in the stable. I have hacked him out both on his own and with Dolly and he coped fine with bin lorries (I did not expect them to be there!), bikes, cars etc. Izzy is also riding when her arm allows which is fun for her too.

Introduced him to the show jumps and the dressage boards and he was curious but not fearful. 

He is very, very green  so I am basically starting from scratch with him assuming he knows very little. So been teaching him to stand still, stand at a mounting block, lead properly, yield to pressure etc. He is very willing, learns quickly and he is very calm, steady, without being lazy. I like him a lot though he is very different to what I am used to: It's been a long time since I have ridden a horse who is not super-forward all the time.

He is also extremely friendly and just nice to be around! I think we will have a lot of fun with him for a year or two.....


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## HashRouge (27 May 2020)

Oh he's lovely! Very handsome! Isn't it funny how they fall into your lap when you least expect it?


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## Rosietaz (27 May 2020)

Looks lovely!!


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## RHM (27 May 2020)

He is so lovely! Please send me your shopping good luck before I top myself 😂


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## Amymay (27 May 2020)

I love him!

Isn’t it funny how the one around the corner is usually the one that ticks all the boxes 😀. Congratulations xx


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## Squeak (27 May 2020)

He looks lovely.  Congratulations and enjoy!


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## Ceriann (27 May 2020)

He does look like a very lovely boy!  Hope you have fun with him!


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## ihatework (27 May 2020)

He looks a useful chap 😃


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## hobo (27 May 2020)

He looks smart hope it carries on as good as it has started.


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## HeyMich (27 May 2020)

Ooh, he looks gorgeous! Give me a shout when you're ready to move him on... Have fun in the meantime!


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## SashaBabe (27 May 2020)

He's gorgeous.  Hope he turns out to be everything you wanted.


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## ester (27 May 2020)

Fabulous

both ours were short term rejects from the DIY yard down the road when their new owners either ran out of money or decided they didn't want him anymore.


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## D66 (27 May 2020)

Very nice. I hope you have a lot of fun with him.


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## Jeni the dragon (27 May 2020)

He's very smart. Hope you have loads of fun.


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## dogatemysalad (27 May 2020)

Absolutely lovely.


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## Errin Paddywack (27 May 2020)

Very handsome chap and a lovely colour.


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## MrsMozart (27 May 2020)

Ooh. He is nice!

I hope you have very many happy years together.


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## splashgirl45 (27 May 2020)

well done,  he is a good size and looks like a nice type, have fun...


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## TheOldTrout (27 May 2020)

He is gorgeous.


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## SatansLittleHelper (27 May 2020)

Love him, congratulations ❤❤


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## silv (27 May 2020)

Very attractive indeed, look forward to following his progress.


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## Ambers Echo (27 May 2020)

Anyone fancy a guess on breeds? I have been told what they _think _ he is, but I take that with a pinch of salt, really.


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## teddypops (27 May 2020)

Very handsome!


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## Jayzee (27 May 2020)

Congratulations!! He looks fab!! have fun! My guess would be somethingX TB


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## Ambers Echo (27 May 2020)

Jayzee said:



			Congratulations!! He looks fab!! have fun! My guess would be somethingX TB
		
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That is what they said one half was... Well done, I wasn't sure about that myself!


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## Rosemary28 (27 May 2020)

What a lovely looking chap!


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## Meredith (27 May 2020)

How lovely


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## ycbm (27 May 2020)

You've done well there.  Very pleased for you. 

.


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## Wheels (27 May 2020)

Hes very sweet! I hope you enjoy him


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## SaddlePsych'D (27 May 2020)

Oh he's a bit handsome! And sounds like a lovely character too


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## scats (27 May 2020)

I really like this chap!  Hope you have lots of fun together x


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## dreamcometrue (27 May 2020)

He’s absolutely gorgeous.  So smart.  Hope you have lots of success and fun with him. X


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## EventingMum (27 May 2020)

He's lovely, I think you'll have lots of fun and hopefully he'll be a less stressful partner to get out and about on. I understand your connection with Amber but think he might be just what you need at this moment in time.


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## Red-1 (27 May 2020)

Gorgeous!


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## Bernster (27 May 2020)

Oh he’s very smart. Like him lots.


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## IrishMilo (27 May 2020)

He's lovely.


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## Skib (27 May 2020)

Lovely. No riding at all down here.


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## tatty_v (27 May 2020)

He looks really lovely AE, I’m looking forward to hearing about all the fun you’re having with him!


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## twiggy2 (27 May 2020)

Lovely news he looks like a very handy chap


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## cauda equina (27 May 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			That is what they said one half was... Well done, I wasn't sure about that myself!
		
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The other half - Welsh?


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## Jayzee (27 May 2020)

cauda equina said:



			The other half - Welsh?
		
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I think Welsh could be a good bet


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## Flicker (27 May 2020)

Absolutely gorgeous, well done!  Hope you have loads of fun together.


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## Eclipse 2020 (27 May 2020)

Congrats he is pretty. My guess is that he is a Irish sport horse my mare looks actually like you’re horse she is a Irish sport horse  the only difference is that she is bright bay in the summer but is his color in the winter.


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## LadyGascoyne (27 May 2020)

Gosh, he is a lovely type. What a great find!


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## Tihamandturkey (27 May 2020)

Smashing 🙂


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## Sam_J (27 May 2020)

Very handsome!  Wishing you lots of happy times together.


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## AdorableAlice (27 May 2020)

What a lovely sort, I am not seeing any Welsh in him, there is something ponyish about him, I wonder if he is TB on a large quality pony, maybe an intermediate type pony. Not a fashionable cross now but common in years gone by.


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## Ambers Echo (27 May 2020)

Well I was told he is a Tb x Connie but I would have no idea myself. He definitely came over from Ireland though.


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## McFluff (27 May 2020)

I was too late. Was going to say he looks very like my friends Connie x TB that she had years ago. Cracking horse. Made a great showjumper and general fun horse.


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## AdorableAlice (27 May 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Well I was told he is a Tb x Connie but I would have no idea myself. He definitely came over from Ireland though.
		
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multi talented , what more could you want !


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## Upthecreek (27 May 2020)

He is lovely. I was thinking TB x Connie. I had one about 20 years ago, very similar to Toby, but just a star on his face. Probably the best ‘all rounder’ I’ve had.


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## KEK (28 May 2020)

He is so very handsome! Looks very kind. TB x Connie sounds perfect, of that's what he is!


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## JennBags (28 May 2020)

Handsome boy, I think you'll have a lot of fun with him.  Another vote for TBxConnie here.


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## Mule (28 May 2020)

Ooh I like him


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## wills_91 (28 May 2020)

Very very handsome. Another vote for tb x Connie, used to own one and he was fantastic.


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## Pippity (28 May 2020)

I was thinking TB x pony, and probably a Connie-ish pony seeing as he's Irish. He looks a lovely sort! Congratulations!


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## MissTyc (28 May 2020)

What a smart horse! I love a good with a good personality like that. You'll have loads of fun with him!


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## BallyJ (28 May 2020)

Oooo beautiful!! 1-2 years you say? better keep my eyes peeled! Sold my Connie x TB last year and majorly regretting it!


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## southerncomfort (28 May 2020)

Lovely boy!

Very happy for you.


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## ForeverBroke_ (28 May 2020)

You know when you can just tell a nice horse by the look of them..! Even without his glowing report he looks like a lovely natured, handsome boy.

Have the best fun!


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## Sussexbythesea (28 May 2020)

He’s very attractive - do love a bay with a white face, I may have one of those somewhere 😂.


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## Tirna (28 May 2020)

What a lovely boy! I love his expression. Another fan of bays with a white face...  I'm sure you'll have lots of fun with him!


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## Ambers Echo (8 June 2020)

Haven't updated for a while as struggling with a major confidence crisis so have been faffing about and avoiding riding. Almost to the point of deciding that if I can't ride Amber I just won't ride anymore at all. But I have had a word with myself and a kick up the ar$e from a friend and all good again now. Well getting there anyway.

Took him to Somerford to do the farm ride and he was amazing. Totally chilled all the way round. Travelled well, stood in the busy carpark for tacking up. Did not mind Dolly cantering on ahead to a jump while he stayed in walk. Happy to lead or follow and never got strong or silly. I have never ridden such a laid back horse that was not a slug as well! So more Toby-Spam to come over the next few weeks.


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## PapaverFollis (8 June 2020)

Only just seen this thread!  He looks absolutely lovely and sounds like a very good boy.  Looking forward to more updates.


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## OldNag (8 June 2020)

He looks super! Have fun 😀


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## Caol Ila (8 June 2020)

I would say that he sounds a lot like Gypsum, except we did launch back to the yard when a new weanling in a paddock decided to race. Apparently me shouting, "Act your age, not your shoe size" was of great amusement to the other liveries.


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## Jayzee (8 June 2020)

Ah fantastic looking forward to more updates!!


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## Welsh Dragon (8 June 2020)

Gorgeous 😍. What a find! He looks like a smaller, lighter version of my IDxTB.

I like Toby very much. Wishing you lots of fun with him.


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## Lois Lame (9 June 2020)

He looks like an honest horse. I like him a lot.


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## Ambers Echo (9 June 2020)

Rode Toby today focusing on riding forward as he can get a bit stuffy and chuck his head up my nostrils. I videoed a short clip in w/t/c to give me a baseline from which I will (hopefully) be tracking progress! I flicked him to send him forward at one point as he was behind the leg and he jumped into canter for a few strides. it felt very dramatic till I watched the vieo and it was just so, so tame! He literally just cantered forward then settled back to a better trot.  My mind is playing tricks on me at the moment: No wonder people say the pony that cantered a few slightly faster strides was 'bolting'. 

The good news is I did ride positively. And he did improve.  And I have my Day Zero baseline footage. Strictly private viewing though - it is not pretty! So am feeling happy.


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## [139672] (9 June 2020)

I love him.  He’s so gorgeous. You are lucky to have him and vice versa 😊


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## splashgirl45 (9 June 2020)

great news, onwards and upwards     you could always  pass him to me, he is exactly the size,build and temperament i need and my favourite colour as well...


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## Ambers Echo (12 June 2020)

Dressage lesson today.  I was much more confident  today which is great. I am beginning to realise (at a biological 'fear centres of brain' level) that he is NOT going to chuck me off any second. So my threat alert levels are dropping to a more rational level! And so I am now able to focus on actally riding him positively.

The verdict from my RI is: he is weak, wobbly, unbalanced and crooked. Much more like a 4yo than a 5 yo. But he has a totally fantastic temperament, really tries hard and is very accepting. It was very wet and windy again today and he was pretty stoic about that.

I have tried to lunge him too mainly to get him moving forward without worrying about balancing a rider as well as himself. But I am not sure how much (if any) lunging he has done. He is a bit of an idiot on the lunge but he does nice work in between the silliness.

He is super shiny. There is no product on him but I think he looks great. He is basically a walking advert for Pink Mash and Haas brushes!!


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## EventingMum (12 June 2020)

What lovely updates, it sounds as though you have a typical baby in terms of straightness etc but a lovely temperament and a good canvas to work on to make something rather special!


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## ownedbyaconnie (12 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I flicked him to send him forward at one point as he was behind the leg and he jumped into canter for a few strides. it felt very dramatic till I watched the vieo and it was just so, so tame! He literally just cantered forward then settled back to a better trot.  My mind is playing tricks on me at the moment.
		
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I completely get this, to me it feels like when my mare locks on to a jump she puts her head down and ploughs towards it and it feels so fast. When I watch videos back yes she does put her head down but she’s really not going as fast as I think she is and as soon as I actually use my seat and stop tensing she comes back to me straight away. The mind is an amazing but sometimes annoying thing! 

Glad your confidence is on the rise, he looks and sounds a real petal, it’ll be the connie in him ❤️


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## [139672] (12 June 2020)

I want him. He is so lovely. If I were to ever get another horse (if I win the lottery!) I’d love a horse like him. He looks so huggable 😊. Am well jell 😀


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## Wheels (12 June 2020)

So pleased you're getting on well, he is very shiny!!

Lacking a bit of topline so I can imagine he is quite weak but over a few months I'm sure that will build up.

I know you are currently looking for a saddle fitter and I think that's wise as that back has a lot of changing to do.   I hope you can find someone who understands topline development because if you have a saddle that fits perfectly now it will not give the muscles room to expand, especially around the thoracic trapezius.  If I were fitting a saddle to this horse I would go slightly wider and pad up but still expect to change saddles in 6 months time (proper work dependent)


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## SatansLittleHelper (12 June 2020)

Saw the videos, he looks like he tries really hard. Lovely little horse and you ride him really nicely too x


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## PictusSweetDreams (12 June 2020)

He’s lovely!! Sounds like a real sweetheart. Can’t beat that pink mash shine 😉


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## tiahatti (12 June 2020)

Love your photos. You are going to have lots of fun.


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## Ambers Echo (12 June 2020)

He is a real sweetheart. It will be sad to say goodbye to him in a year or so. He was asleep when I went up to give him his tea. Hardworking hoss, bless him. x

Wheels - I totally agree. I need to make sure his saddles suit him over time. I've actually got too many saddles at the moment! I've got Amber's Equipe which  is my pride and joy - I bought it for myself (with contributions from OH and parents) as a 50th birthday treat. Then I still have Deedee's Black Country Saddle which I have not got around to selling and also the saddle I rode Amber in pre-Equipe as they would not part ex. So I might hang on to them for a while....


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## ihatework (12 June 2020)

He sounds absolutely lovely!


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## Ambers Echo (12 June 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			great news, onwards and upwards     you could always  pass him to me, he is exactly the size,build and temperament i need and my favourite colour as well...
		
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If you can wait a year.....


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## Cinnamontoast (12 June 2020)

I’d have said TB/ID looking at that head. Is the plan to sell on if Amber comes sound? I’d say he has a bit of growing to do.


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## Ambers Echo (12 June 2020)

Yes I am hoping Amber can come back into work next year. If not, then I need to decide if I can afford to keep them both long-term so I have a ridden horse too. Because obviously AMber is my number 1!


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## splashgirl45 (12 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			If you can wait a year.....
		
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i will be 75 then   but i am rather taken with him,  i need to win the lottery first so i can afford to pay someone to do the heavy work and all i would need to do would be pamper him and ride ,  heaven


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## PigPeppa (12 June 2020)

Are you in Cheshire?


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## Wheels (12 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			He is a real sweetheart. It will be sad to say goodbye to him in a year or so. He was asleep when I went up to give him his tea. Hardworking hoss, bless him. x

Wheels - I totally agree. I need to make sure his saddles suit him over time. I've actually got too many saddles at the moment! I've got Amber's Equipe which  is my pride and joy - I bought it for myself (with contributions from OH and parents) as a 50th birthday treat. Then I still have Deedee's Black Country Saddle which I have not got around to selling and also the saddle I rode Amber in pre-Equipe as they would not part ex. So I might hang on to them for a while....
		
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Does the equipe not fit this boy?

Collecting saddles is a must, you never know when you might need a different one lol


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## Rosemary28 (12 June 2020)

He looks such a sweetie


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## Lois Lame (13 June 2020)

How do we get tickets to see the video?


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## Ambers Echo (13 June 2020)

Lois Lame said:



			How do we get tickets to see the video? 

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 A fairly flattering 20 second clip in sideways rain was posted on Fb. I don't mind sharing that. If only because I was so.proud of Toby coping with it.... The Ground Zero Video of wt/c on both reins is x-rated (as in xtremely shonky) That is staying private!


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## Amymay (13 June 2020)

There’s only ever really a handful of horses that I see (and read about on here) that I genuinely covet.  Toby goes to the top of that list.

He’s everything I want I a horse!  I love him 💕💕


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## eahotson (13 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Say hi to Toby....

I stopped actively looking and then he popped up on my FB feed just in the next town along from me.

He's a 5 yo unregistered irish horse. 15.1
Very, very sweet. We have had him since Saturday and so far all good.... He has been relaxed in the field and lying down in the stable. I have hacked him out both on his own and with Dolly and he coped fine with bin lorries (I did not expect them to be there!), bikes, cars etc. Izzy is also riding when her arm allows which is fun for her too.

Introduced him to the show jumps and the dressage boards and he was curious but not fearful.

He is very, very green  so I am basically starting from scratch with him assuming he knows very little. So been teaching him to stand still, stand at a mounting block, lead properly, yield to pressure etc. He is very willing, learns quickly and he is very calm, steady, without being lazy. I like him a lot though he is very different to what I am used to: It's been a long time since I have ridden a horse who is not super-forward all the time.

He is also extremely friendly and just nice to be around! I think we will have a lot of fun with him for a year or two.....
























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Ambers Echo said:



			Say hi to Toby....

I stopped actively looking and then he popped up on my FB feed just in the next town along from me.

He's a 5 yo unregistered irish horse. 15.1
Very, very sweet. We have had him since Saturday and so far all good.... He has been relaxed in the field and lying down in the stable. I have hacked him out both on his own and with Dolly and he coped fine with bin lorries (I did not expect them to be there!), bikes, cars etc. Izzy is also riding when her arm allows which is fun for her too.

Introduced him to the show jumps and the dressage boards and he was curious but not fearful.

He is very, very green  so I am basically starting from scratch with him assuming he knows very little. So been teaching him to stand still, stand at a mounting block, lead properly, yield to pressure etc. He is very willing, learns quickly and he is very calm, steady, without being lazy. I like him a lot though he is very different to what I am used to: It's been a long time since I have ridden a horse who is not super-forward all the time.

He is also extremely friendly and just nice to be around! I think we will have a lot of fun with him for a year or two.....
























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He looks and sounds smashing.


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## Ambers Echo (13 June 2020)

PigPeppa said:



			Are you in Cheshire?
		
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Derbyshire x


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## PigPeppa (13 June 2020)

I wish I could find one like him  so beautiful


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## Ambers Echo (13 June 2020)

So I rounded my lovely weekend off with a glorious evening hack. All these years I have assumed I don't like hacking when in fact I just don't like hacking AMBER! Bless her, she is still my number one horse and she was not particularly difficult to hack. She was good in traffic and non spooky. Bt she wasn't restful either. Always on a mission. Life with Amber was lived at 100mph. Which made her the worl'd most awesome XC horse but she was less fun to take on an evening amble. Toby on the other hand is Mr Pipe and Slippers and I feel SOOO comfortable hacking him. He just never looks at anything. Stands still. Needs encouragement to go not whoa. And turns out hacking is really very pleasant.....

It was a weekend of 2 halves - torrential rain in my dressage lesson:






And then lovely and sunny.


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## ycbm (13 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Derbyshire x
		
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By a whisker 😆    You can tell where  Derbyshire starts and Cheshire ends  because Derbyshire seam their road repairs and Cheshire doesn't.  Drives me nuts!

You won't have any trouble selling that neat little fellow when you want to.  
.


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## Ambers Echo (13 June 2020)

Cheshire is posh! We are definitely Derbyshire!! I am basically on the border between Derbyshire, Staffordshire and Cheshire. Toby came from Cheshire though. That dealer does have nice horses in quite often for anyone looking. But his prices have gone up a lot in line wth the crazy market currently.


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## chaps89 (13 June 2020)

I REALLY like him alot, I think you found a good 'un there


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## J&S (13 June 2020)

He is very good in that rain.  Most horses would have their heads between their legs to try to get away from it! And such pretty ears!


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## splashgirl45 (13 June 2020)

love him even more now....you will have no problems selling him if you can bring yourself  to...


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## Rosemary28 (14 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Cheshire is posh! We are definitely Derbyshire!! I am basically on the border between Derbyshire, Staffordshire and Cheshire. Toby came from Cheshire though. That dealer does have nice horses in quite often for anyone looking. But his prices have gone up a lot in line wth the crazy market currently.
		
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If Cheshire is posh I’d better move somewhere else! 🤣🤣🤣


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## Ambers Echo (17 June 2020)

Had a little jump on Toby. And I really do mean LITTLE. Just teeny X poles. It was not very pretty to start with. He does not really know what to do with his legs! But he was willing and honest. At the moment all I really want to do is get him used to the idea of poles and jumps. Our focus is flatwork and hacking. But it's a start and I now have my Time Zero Jumping video too as a 'this is where we began' clip. Hopefully in a few months time he will look very different over fences.....


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## Ambers Echo (24 June 2020)

So whenever I have a wobble about Tobes, he goes and behaves like a total superstar. I've missed riding Amber loads this week and Toby is just so goofy and all over me all the time. So I was  thinking ok get him going SJ and XC and sell him! But he was FANTASTIC at Somerford today. He actually suits me far more than Amber does - when she's unsure she launches herself at things. Toby takes his time to work it out then pops up, across or over nicely. He's a calm, kind, safe horse and riding him is just fun and relaxing. He is very green but just such a lovely temperament. Even if he's not quite got his legs connected to his brain yet!  My lovely friends organised a photographer to come and take pictures so prepare for Toby spam when I get them.


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## Jayzee (24 June 2020)

What a lovely update! Looking forward to the pictures. He sounds fab!


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## Wheels (24 June 2020)

Very much looking forward to photos!

I'm also really pleased that you are seeing the benefits of having something safe but that is also fun


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## Ambers Echo (24 June 2020)

Wheels said:



			Very much looking forward to photos!

I'm also really pleased that you are seeing the benefits of having something safe but that is also fun 

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I'm discovering there is a lot to be said for a Go Anywhere, Do Anything horse!


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## Wheels (24 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I'm discovering there is a lot to be said for a Go Anywhere, Do Anything horse!
		
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Yes indeedy


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## EventingMum (24 June 2020)

He sounds an utter delight - I predict he's a keeper!


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## Upthecreek (24 June 2020)

There is a lot to be said for an easygoing horse whose behaviour is predictable in most situations and doesn’t cause you stress and anxiety when you take it out. In my mid forties that’s exactly what I want from a horse. I suppose the more difficult horses give you a greater sense of achievement when something goes well, but I don’t need the drama in my life these days!


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## J&S (24 June 2020)

I am so pleased you are understanding how much pleasure can be gained from having  "a nice horse"!  I have a friend who has owned and ridden tricky horses for the last 40 years and when offered a quieter, "nicer" horse she asked....... what would I do with it"?  "Enjoy it", was the answer!!


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## chaps89 (24 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I'm discovering there is a lot to be said for a Go Anywhere, Do Anything horse!
		
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That's what I have currently and I'm dreading trying to find the next one. They're the best!
I'm glad you're having fun with him, looking forwards to the pictures


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## wills_91 (24 June 2020)

Add me to the list of want to be owners if he is ever looking for a new home. He looks like he would enjoy Scotland 😂


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## splashgirl45 (24 June 2020)

good news, i reckon you should keep him...and cant wait for the photos


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## SatansLittleHelper (24 June 2020)

Awwww I really like him, he looks such a willing little guy 😍😍
Can't wait to see pics, and I'm another who thinks he'll end up staying..!!!


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## Ambers Echo (25 June 2020)

He was a very good boy! Everthing was new to him but he was calm and tried so hard. He's a real sweetie.


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## splashgirl45 (25 June 2020)

bless him,  he looks such a nice boy, i reckon you should keep him, the smile says it all


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## Hollychops (25 June 2020)

Have only just caught up with this thead but i have to say 'what a lovely horse you have'. Despite his tender years he seems so honest and tries so hard for you. I predict you wont want to part with him when/if the time comes  No stress, no hassle, just lots of fun. Enjoy


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## Trouper (25 June 2020)

Well whatever his breeding is, I think you should officially re-classify him as 'Unicorn'.  He is just what most of us dream of having in a horse!!


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## Rosemary28 (25 June 2020)

Trouper said:



			Well whatever his breeding is, I think you should officially re-classify him as 'Unicorn'.  He is just what most of us dream of having in a horse!!
		
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Agreed! He's just the sort of thing I'd have loved a few years ago when I was still riding regularly (I would still love him now, only now I wouldn't be able to ride one side of him!)


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## Ambers Echo (25 June 2020)

Rosemary28 said:



			(I would still love him now, only now I wouldn't be able to ride one side of him!)
		
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He could not be easier to ride! You could put anyone on him and pootle round the farm ride in walk. He does not even react if the other horses canter off without him or canter right past him. He's an absolute Saint to hack.


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## Rosemary28 (25 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			He could not be easier to ride! You could put anyone on him and pootle round the farm ride in walk. He does not even react if the other horses canter off without him or canter right past him. He's an absolute Saint to hack.
		
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Yep, he sounds just the sort of thing I would love!


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## Jayzee (25 June 2020)

He looks so much fun and shiny!!!


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## gunnergundog (25 June 2020)

Toby looks to be worth his weight in gold!

Just wonder if it may be an idea to put some boots on him whilst he is still working out how to coordinate his legs at this new game?  Not sure if it is just the angle but my heart was in my mouth when I saw, what seems to be, his off-fore scraping up the step in your first picture of the XC session.  Rule number one:  don't damage the merchandise!  Especially when worth its weight in gold!


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## Ambers Echo (25 June 2020)

Yes I did try some on but they rubbed him. They seemed to fit but grit got inside. He seems to have quite sensitive skin - since I've had him he has also developed a small raw patch where the girth goes. I've bought a nice anatomical girth and that has now healed but the choice of boots is bewildering. Any recommendations?


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## Mule (25 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Yes I did try some on but they rubbed him. They seemed to fit but grit got inside. He seems to have quite sensitive skin - since I've had him he has also developed a small raw patch where the girth goes. I've bought a nice anatomical girth and that has now healed but the choice of boots is bewildering. Any recommendations?
		
Click to expand...

Would bandages be less abrasive? They would be a bit of a pita because I'd imagine you'd have to be very careful to tape them up so as to ensure they would stay in place for jumping. Perhaps you can get boots with soft material on the inside.


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## Ambers Echo (25 June 2020)

The boots were lined with wool/faux wool but that seemed to absorb a load of gritty water and made a bit of a mess


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## HufflyPuffly (25 June 2020)

I've almost given up AE with boots, everything seemed to rub Skylla and she hasn't injured herself yet...

Though I do use Majyk boots for short XC sessions.

I did get some good suggestions actually on another thread, I'll go find it!


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## Ambers Echo (25 June 2020)

.....Goes off to google.....


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## HufflyPuffly (25 June 2020)

My thread about jumping without, though my main issue is length of boots:
https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/jumping-without-boots.785139/


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## Ambers Echo (25 June 2020)

Wow, ok! Look nice! Front and hinds? As they specify hind or front would I get medium for both. In the past I have bought the same brushing boots for front and hind just a size larger for hinds. But as I say the choice is bewildering!

I'll have a read of that thread too.


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## ihatework (25 June 2020)

Trizone allsports are useful. Light, flexible, don’t absorb water.


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## HufflyPuffly (25 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Wow, ok! Look nice! Front and hinds? As they specify hind or front would I get medium for both. In the past I have bought the same brushing boots for front and hind just a size larger for hinds. But as I say the choice is bewildering!

I'll have a read of that thread too.
		
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I just use front's on her to be honest, only thing I can say that might help is that PE hind boots are bonkers long! I have some that I bought for Topaz and have sat in my tackroom for about 8 years lol, I jumped her barelegged behind too...

edit as that was poor wording


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## Ambers Echo (25 June 2020)

That was an inteteresting thread. With some saying don't boot at all. So what are brushing or tendon boots even for?
Advantages are protection against banging into things and knocking himself obviously. But what are the downsides - assuming I can find ones that don't rub and keep legs cool enough?

Amber has the Trizones. And I really like them. They are light, breathable and never caused a problem. So maybe I'll just get him some of those in a different colour to avooid confusion!


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## CanteringCarrot (25 June 2020)

FWIW I've been hacking and schooling in Arma Air Motion Brushing boots for quite awhile. My horse has sensitive skin and gets rubs so easily, and I thought these would get gritty, but they've been a success with him. Even through water. Fairly reasonable price too.


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## milliepops (25 June 2020)

I'd try the trizones on him before buying, they rubbed my sensitive one.  FWIW I would also be choosing to boot him for work like that if you can find some that work for him, be a bloody shame for him to pick up an annoying little injury where he's not established or balanced enough to look after himself neatly.

I boot all of mine for work, personal preference, and always booted for jumping too.  Now I have one clumsy one who can get a graze from a dust particle and one who does a lot of sideways so I just go with the lightest I can get away with and taking care of the legs afterwards.


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## George_William (25 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			That was an inteteresting thread. With some saying don't boot at all. So what are brushing or tendon boots even for?
Advantages are protection against banging into things and knocking himself obviously. But what are the downsides - assuming I can find ones that don't rub and keep legs cool enough?

Amber has the Trizones. And I really like them. They are light, breathable and never caused a problem. So maybe I'll just get him some of those in a different colour to avooid confusion!
		
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My sensitive pink skinned one has trizones


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## Sprout (25 June 2020)

He looks and sounds wonderful, I hope you have lots of fun together.


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## Ambers Echo (25 June 2020)

milliepops said:



			I'd try the trizones on him before buying, they rubbed my sensitive one.  FWIW I would also be choosing to boot him for work like that if you can find some that work for him, be a bloody shame for him to pick up an annoying little injury where he's not established or balanced enough to look after himself neatly.

I boot all of mine for work, personal preference, and always booted for jumping too.  Now I have one clumsy one who can get a graze from a dust particle and one who does a lot of sideways so I just go with the lightest I can get away with and taking care of the legs afterwards.
		
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Do you boot up all round?


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## doodle (25 June 2020)

He sounds perfect. Just what I would like to ride. 

Robin is booted up all round in premier equine brushing boots day to day. I just would rather protect against a silly bump and his legs don’t get sweaty.  He also has a set of their air cooled XC boots for XC. What I will say as someone else has is they are very long! Robin is 16.2 and in mediums although they could do with being 3mm wider. Till then I always used to use good old fashioned woof boots.


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## HufflyPuffly (25 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			That was an inteteresting thread. With some saying don't boot at all. So what are brushing or tendon boots even for?
Advantages are protection against banging into things and knocking himself obviously. But what are the downsides - assuming I can find ones that don't rub and keep legs cool enough?

Amber has the Trizones. And I really like them. They are light, breathable and never caused a problem. So maybe I'll just get him some of those in a different colour to avooid confusion!
		
Click to expand...

I think it is mainly rubs and over heating the tendons are generally considered the big downside of boots/ bandages, lots of new research of how badly heat can affect the tendons. Though I think the title of that thread attracted people who don’t boot maybe 🤷🏼‍♀️.

Skylla (Or Topaz) isn’t really apt to knock herself in either sideways dressage work or the jumping fast work so I decided to put the perfect boot search on hold until I can get to tack shops with my tape measure 😂🙈.

Also both of mine are very hot horses, as in temperament and sweatiness! So keeping them cool is high on my priorities. The trizones are next on my list to try.


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## milliepops (25 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Do you boot up all round?
		
Click to expand...

I do, plus over reaches. I'm aware of the heating concerns etc hence trying to keep to lightish boots and prompt removal,  ice/hosing.


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## Ambers Echo (27 June 2020)

Trizones on order. Luckily my lovely friends got me a Hope Valley Saddlery voucher for my birthday. Toby has been a busy bee recently and I think he already looks like he is filling out a bit. He does get a couple of days off a week but otherwise I am keeping him busy. Ridden wise he is unrecognisable from the giraffe I bought who threw his head all over the place to avoid accepting the hand. I could see his blaze at times from on his back 

I took some Time 2 video today. I wobble all over the place but he looks quite nice! Glimmers of real promise I think. Definitely more balanced than he was and he moves much more freely forward. The change in the month that I've had him is pretty significant so I am very pleased. He is also growing on me as a personality. He is a bit of a comedy horse. He drinks from the hose, he is playful and friendly, he works hard and never says no. If he continues to improve this quickly I might even get him out eventing by the end of the season....


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## Ambers Echo (2 July 2020)

First E-Rider stressage test attempt. Was going to do intro but his canter is better than his trot so went for prelim. There is so much room for improvement as there were lots of dodgy bits so I was delighted with 61.74%. I expected around 55!


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## Roxylola (2 July 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			First E-Rider stressage test attempt. Was going to do intro but his canter is better than his trot so went for prelim. There is so much room for improvement as there were lots of dodgy bits so I was delighted with 61.74%. I expected around 55!
		
Click to expand...

I consistently mark myself a good 5 -10% less than we actually get so I'm always delighted with over 60%, well done Tobi 💙


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## Ambers Echo (2 July 2020)

I have lost my horse to my daughter. Izzy absolutely adores him. He mouths everything like an overgrown puppy. Photos are of him snuffling her ear as she tried to take selfies. She finds his goofiness cute . I find it annoying and try not to allow it! I'm forever saying oi gerrof when he snuffles me when I am picking out hooves, doing up rugs etc. He nibbled my farrier's pony tail during his shoeing. And then his beard when the farrier gave him a big fat kiss on his muzzle at the end. He is winning fans everywhere he goes. Farrier said give me horses like him any day. 

 Amber would NEVER lower herself to licking people's ears or snuffling them. She is far too cool for that! 

But Toby is slowly melting my 'you're not Amber' defences.....

His ridden work is really coming on too


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## doodle (2 July 2020)

I love it when Robin snuffles me so would take Toby in a heart beat!!


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## Ambers Echo (2 July 2020)




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## splashgirl45 (2 July 2020)

i love him even more now that you have said anyone could ride him,  i cant see you selling him though...


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## Wheels (2 July 2020)

Hes looking great!

I find with these types that telling them to gerrof and stop doing things just makes them more determined to keep doing it!

He is breaking down your defences one lick and one snuffle at a time lol


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## Roxylola (2 July 2020)

Well, that could work out rather well really. You've something to share while shes on limited games, and hopefully once amber is sorted you dont have to look for a new horse for izzy


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## poiuytrewq (2 July 2020)

Sadly I can’t load your photos! He sounds really lovely though!


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## chaps89 (2 July 2020)

He's a winner.
Izzy doesn't look too small on him so I'm placing bets he's going nowhere!


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## Amymay (2 July 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			i love him even more now that you have said anyone could ride him,  i cant see you selling him though...
		
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He’s the type of horse _no one_ should sell.  He’s horse of a lifetime material.


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## SatansLittleHelper (2 July 2020)

Love him, he looks like a star in the making. And I absolutely LOVE that kind of personality ❤❤❤❤


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## Ambers Echo (3 July 2020)

Wheels said:



			He is breaking down your defences one lick and one snuffle at a time lol
		
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He is actually. At first I just didn't like him at all but that was just fear of what he might do and sadness about Amber. Later I relaxed on him but still felt he was basically a means to an end. Ie a way of continuing to improve my riding while waiting for Amber and a sale project. But since Somerford I've  found myself warming to him a lot more and I now really look forward to riding him. And have to fight Izzy off! I can imagine that in a few more weeks I'll be totally won over. He is very sweet and I think he will be really good in time too. He has nice paces, is scopey and most importantly tries really hard.


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## Trouper (3 July 2020)

How many times has this been said - they find you and come to you for a reason


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## HashRouge (3 July 2020)

There is no way you're selling this horse 

He is absolutely super, I really, really like him!


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## Upthecreek (3 July 2020)

I love a goofy horse! One of mine is like that, always wants to be with you and always doing something to get your attention if you’re busy doing something nearby that doesn’t involve him. Like the class clown at school! If Toby’s ridden work continues to progress combined with his fantastic temperament you will have the perfect horse. Lucky you.


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## scats (3 July 2020)

He sounds like an absolute super star AE! 

Same as MP, I also boot up for everything and always have.


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## Wheels (3 July 2020)

Amymay said:



			He’s the type of horse _no one_ should sell.  He’s horse of a lifetime material.
		
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He's one of those horses that 'everybody wants' but 'nobody will sell' - or he will be by the time EA (and Izzy by the sounds of things) have schooled him up and had a bit of fun on


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## Ambers Echo (10 July 2020)

Happy with this!!


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## Roxylola (10 July 2020)

That's very positive AE, well done Tobi


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## splashgirl45 (10 July 2020)

want him even more as dressage is my thing    well done, video would be nice


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## Ambers Echo (18 July 2020)

Toby goes to Pony Camp.... Just can't praise him enough. First overnight trip. First time anywhere without Dolly. He coped with everything so well. Totally chilled all weekend. He jumped fillers, he paid attention in dressage on grass, he did loads on the XC and the he capped the camp off with a non competitive ODE. He was obedient in the dressage for a respectable 37 penalties, was clear in the SJ at 50cm and relaxed in the XC. Left the start box willingly and just had 1 green stop at a 70cm fence (he was mostly jumping the 50cm options) but flew round the rest enthusuastically but calmly. He did so well. What a superstar. The dressage trainer said she'd love to take him home -adding 'I bet you think I say that about all the horses but I really don't. I don't normally like other pelple's horses!'

 He'll be an eventer yet! Short clip of our weekend.


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## chaps89 (18 July 2020)

Love him 😍 obviously a green baby but so genuine


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## Laurac13 (18 July 2020)

He is a lovely lovely boy you can’t beat a willing horse, he’s also beautiful 😄 I think you’ll have such fun with him


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## splashgirl45 (18 July 2020)

still love him,  he looks like he has a great walk as well as being a good boy , i am sure you will end up keeping him i know i would..


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## Ambers Echo (18 July 2020)

We got 7s for our walk


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## Ambers Echo (18 July 2020)

I should say he got 7s for HIS! I can't really take any credit for it


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## Amymay (18 July 2020)

He’s just amazing 💕💕💕


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## splashgirl45 (18 July 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I should say he got 7s for HIS! I can't really take any credit for it

Click to expand...

i said it was good ,  am pleased the judge agreed with me...


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## J&S (19 July 2020)

Cracking little horse with just the right rider.  A different rider, i.e. too pushy or without confidence might not be such a successful partnership.  Amber he may not be, but he has the makings of a horse of a life time in his own manner.


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## tatty_v (19 July 2020)

Honestly AE, you have to keep him otherwise I’ll be begging you to send him to me! This is exactly what you needed - easy, fun and with a great temperament. Go Toby!


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## Errin Paddywack (19 July 2020)

I do like a horse with a good walk.  That was the biggest failing with my last riding horse, she just couldn't walk out.  I don't mind doing a whole ride in walk if it is a nice swinging one that is going somewhere.


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## J&S (19 July 2020)

I think the Queen  said " a horse with a good walk has a good gallop".


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## southerncomfort (19 July 2020)

Can I join the Toby fan club please?  He's fab!

Really pleased for you. 🙂


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## ycbm (19 July 2020)

That little fellow will be worth his weight in gold with a few more miles under his belt! 
.


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## Ambers Echo (22 July 2020)

Toby had 3 days off after camp and is having 2 weeks off from next week as we are going away. So in this last week he is having 1 hack, 1 XC session, 1 dressage test recording session for E-Riders and 1 SJ lesson. Then he can sleep in a field for a but.

He was great at Somerford today. Katie and Dolly had a lesson so whule they were doing that I just pootled about on the 80 acres getting him more used to jumps, steps, water. We had a few green moments, especially early on but bu the end he was positive and confident. I will brave some video as I am sp proud of him. But please focus on the horse ansd not his rider 


__
		http://instagr.am/p/CC870bPHjGf/


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## Roxylola (22 July 2020)

I think I saw you hacking up to Katie's lesson. I was walking and my owner rode back - hogged black and white on his own, I had a pink t shirt on under a black body protector


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## Ambers Echo (22 July 2020)

Roxylola said:



			I think I saw you hacking up to Katie's lesson. I was walking and my owner rode back - hogged black and white on his own, I had a pink t shirt on under a black body protector
		
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We were late as Dolly was totally filthy this morning. I think you were in the lesson with my friend Charlotte and her 4 year old? She was hacking up in a group with one black and white horse, but I saw another black and white  a cob walking up behind, so was not sure which was you. We were so late I could not stop to say hello! Did you have a good lesson?


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## Roxylola (22 July 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			We were late as Dolly was totally filthy this morning. I think you were in the lesson with my friend Charlotte and her 4 year old? She was hacking up in a group with one black and white horse, but I saw another black and white  a cob walking up behind, so was not sure which was you. We were so late I could not stop to say hello! Did you have a good lesson?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I sort of know charlotte in so far as she was at Feb camp when I was. We were the second black and white - theyd gone on while we swapped jockeys


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## Ambers Echo (22 July 2020)

Sorry to have missed you. Next time! Hope you had a good lesson x


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## Roxylola (22 July 2020)

Yes thank you, we had a fab lesson. Your ponies are stunners 🥰


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## Ambers Echo (22 July 2020)

Roxylola said:



			Yes thank you, we had a fab lesson. Your ponies are stunners 🥰
		
Click to expand...

Dolly looks slightly better when she;s not covered head to toe in sh1t!!


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## Roxylola (22 July 2020)

Honestly, I brought the cob in for a dressage a couple of weeks ago and he was just black from head to foot on one side and just mostly black on the other, all wet sloppy mud. I had to hose him which he was just appalled about


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## splashgirl45 (22 July 2020)

bless him,   lovely video


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## Ambers Echo (23 July 2020)

I've entered the ODE at Eland Lodge! Excited.


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## splashgirl45 (23 July 2020)

OOOH,  more photos and videos please


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## Ambers Echo (23 July 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			OOOH,  more photos and videos please  

Click to expand...

Don't worry this thread will never be short of Toby spam! I did some dressage test riding today. If I feel brave I might put some clips up. He has improved SOOO much since arriving. I am very pleased with him x


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## Ambers Echo (23 July 2020)

Who else is doing the ODE? We should have an HHO socially distanced social! I am doing the 50 but Katie is doing the 80 so I'll be there for that too.


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## splashgirl45 (23 July 2020)

wish i was in your area and spectators were allowed,  would love to see him in the flesh...looking forward to the dressage test riding...


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## Ambers Echo (23 July 2020)

I think I'm only pleased with it because it is so much better than the test riding I did in June. Not sure it's ready for the public yet! Maybe August;s test will be... I am doing one a month x


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## Roxylola (23 July 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Who else is doing the ODE? We should have an HHO socially distanced social! I am doing the 50 but Katie is doing the 80 so I'll be there for that too.
		
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Bank holiday monday? Maybe the 70 or the 80.


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## mossycup (23 July 2020)

He's lovely, you can almost hear him thinking in that video!


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## Chippers1 (24 July 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Who else is doing the ODE? We should have an HHO socially distanced social! I am doing the 50 but Katie is doing the 80 so I'll be there for that too.
		
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I'll be doing the 70, need to enter soon!


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## Ambers Echo (1 August 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			First E-Rider stressage test attempt. Was going to do intro but his canter is better than his trot so went for prelim. There is so much room for improvement as there were lots of dodgy bits so I was delighted with 61.74%. I expected around 55!
		
Click to expand...

Just got the scores for July. He got  64.6% in prelim. That's a very pleasing improvement in a month. Woop woop!! He's now having a rest which is good news for him as it's 30 degrees plus!


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## HashRouge (1 August 2020)

He's just so lovely! I'm sure I've seen you describe Amber as your horse of a lifetime - maybe you are one of those lucky people who has two?


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## Roxylola (1 August 2020)

Oh that's super, well done Toby and AE


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## Ambers Echo (1 August 2020)

Amber is absolutely my horse of a lifetime but Toby is not a bad number 2! I doubt I can keep him long-term though. Im still assuming he will be sold once Amber is back in work.


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## Ambers Echo (2 August 2020)

Forgot to mention he was 4th!! Our first frilly x


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## Ambers Echo (13 August 2020)

Slight setback in that his shoe slipped back and by the time I was able to get the shoe off he was quite foot sore. But 24 hours later there was a noticeable improvement and he is sound now. I discovered that he is even angelic when an amatuer faffs about getting a shoe off a sore foot! He stood like a rock for me and then patiently stood still while soaking his hoof in a bucket of diluted anti bacterial stuff to kill any nasties that might have got in the holes. 

Farrier felt he could do with a break from shoes so we are trying him barefoot now. I prefer unshod anyway. I only shod him as he arrived shod and sometimes the transition is not that easy but with both Jenny and Amber it was fine so hopefuly he will do well too.


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## Wheels (13 August 2020)

How is amber doing?


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## Ambers Echo (13 August 2020)

Amber seems fine. She is at grass now and very chilled. She was last reviewed about 6 weeks ago and was still lame on the right rein on a circle but fine walking and trotting up in straight lines and on the left rein. So she is allowed out and seems very happy 'retired'.


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## Ambers Echo (25 August 2020)

So all change in the herd.... I am moving Amber to grass livery on Thursday as my yard has such restricted turnout in winter. It was bad enough last year but she has announced that we are all sharing ONE paddock - for 1 hour a day each. Anyway, Dolly does not seem to mind as she is so nesh. And as long as she has hay and people around she is fine anywhere. But it's not adequate for Amber or Toby. Amber will be 35 minutes away and I am starting her rehab. Also my plan to have the others on full livery has been shelved as I'd rather manage them myself. So basically I am going to sell Toby after Somerford camp in September rather than try and deal with 3 on DIY across 2 yards all winter. And I will stick with 2 till I see what is happening with Amber. If she comes back into work well HURRAH. If not, I will turn her away again for longer (probs a year). Or try Rockley Farm. But I won't replace Toby till I know what the future holds a bit more. If my timing works I'll sell before the market crashes.....

So any Toby fans out there - now is your chance.....


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## Roxylola (25 August 2020)

Oh I'm sorry you can't keep enjoying him a little longer, he really seems to have blossomed with you but winter is hard enough without having unnecessary horses to try and keep going, especially as your girls are getting older - school etc will have to be their priority I guess


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## Ambers Echo (25 August 2020)

Yep they are going into 6th form. Izzy is going away to college an hour and a half away. And she has a weekend job. So realistically she won't have time to do anything much at all. Katie will be busy with Dolly but I suspect I will be schooling her myself through winter as she will be on so little turn out that I want to get her out ridden, lunged or inhand every day. And work has gone bonkers since lockdown ended. So enough is enough. I need to simplify my life!!


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## Rosemary28 (25 August 2020)

Sounds like a fantastic opportunity for someone!


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## Amymay (25 August 2020)

Really sorry to hear that you’re selling Toby.  Sad news.


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## SatansLittleHelper (25 August 2020)

Awwww, although I totally get why you are selling him, its such a shame. He will make someone an amazing horse though x


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## Bernster (25 August 2020)

🙋‍♀️ I think he’s lovely.  Do you think he’d make a happy all rounder with a bit of low level Eventing?


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## Ambers Echo (25 August 2020)

Yes that is exactly what he'd make! He is ideal as an easy, straightforward, go anywhere, do anything horse. In terms of eventing, he is green and he is naturally quite cautious as opposed to being super-bold over fences. So he will need to be produced slowly to event, introducing him to new questions one at a time to build his confidence. But he can definitly jump! This is an 85/90cm oxer:


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## tatty_v (25 August 2020)

He’s lovely AE. Remind me how old he is again?


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## Ambers Echo (25 August 2020)

tatty_v said:



			He’s lovely AE. Remind me how old he is again?
		
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5


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## HashRouge (25 August 2020)

Good job I'm at the other end of the country or I'd be tempted to view him AE! Sadly being part-time this year means I've got to curb my enthusiasm for horse buying!


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## joosie (26 August 2020)

Bummer.
Are you sure you can't sell the kids instead?


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## Ambers Echo (26 August 2020)

joosie said:



			Bummer.
Are you sure you can't sell the kids instead?
		
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 Very tempting!


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## Coblover63 (26 August 2020)

I've had the feeling all along that you've kept your emotional distance with Toby.  Whether it's because Amber has totally stolen all of your heart, or whether you knew Toby was a stop-gap solution....  or whether you just didn't gel with him 🤷‍♀️ I know you're obviously fond of him and your posts have always been informative and interesting, but I just don't feel "the lurve" radiating from them like when you post about Amber ❤️  

In any case, you've done a lovely job starting him 👍  He's now ready to go off into the world with a fab all-round education.  I'm sure you'll find him a lovely home in no time.


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## Ambers Echo (26 August 2020)

You're totally right Coblover. Toby is fab but he's no Amber and I never intended to keep him long term. I have loads of fun on Toby but I feel totally  inspired and 'home' when I ride Amber. Toby is much more suited to me on paper: better size, easier to ride, confudence giving to hack and friendlier. But Amber has my heart completely despite everything.


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## Ambers Echo (20 September 2020)

Well the last few weeks have been a bit of a roller coaster. I decided to sell Toby to bring Amber back into work as she is now at a place where she can rehab (my yard isn't suitable). I then got disappointing news about her. But decided to sell him anyway as my motivation to ride any 'Not Amber' horse disappeared. I decided I needed a break really. Sell Toby, focus on getting Amber better (or not). So I stuck him on FB, and got an offer that was only £500 off the price I had in my head that  I would accept. She said she would not want to vet and could pick up from Somerford today. But we could not agree on a price and I was in no hurry anyway so that was that. And OMG Toby was AWESOME this weekend. I keep kind of going off him through no fault of his own - just the circumstances in which he came to me. And then he goes and behaves like the total Saint he is. I just can't fault him. He tries SO hard. He is SO genuine and willing and kind. And he can move. And he can jump. What's not to like? I spent all weekend thinking thank goodness that buyer isn't picking him up. Id be gutted! So there we are. Looks like he is staying after all Incidentally Izzy rode all weekend and he kooked after her beautifully, dodgy arm and all. He is a sweetheart.


__
		http://instagr.am/p/CFXqOTon47T/


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## southerncomfort (20 September 2020)

🙂🙂🙂

Great news AE. He does sound like an absolute dude.


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## J&S (20 September 2020)

Very relieved you have decided he should stay, but could not actually understand why he wouldn't!!


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## Ambers Echo (20 September 2020)

J&S said:



			Very relieved you have decided he should stay, but could not actually understand why he wouldn't!!
		
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My head has just been in a bit of a weird place.... But he is a dude. I do really like him x


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## Amymay (20 September 2020)

Fingers crossed he stays with you for a long, long time.  Why anyone would want to sell a horse like him is totally beyond me.  You’re all very lucky to have him in your life.


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## Widgeon (21 September 2020)

I really wouldn't be in a hurry to sell him unless / until you are 100% certain your head is in the right place to make that decision. Horses like him really don't come along often, particularly uncomplicated, healthy young ones. And if the girls are enjoying him too, then all the more reason to hold onto him. Personally I think he looks wonderful.


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## AandK (21 September 2020)

Amymay said:



			Fingers crossed he stays with you for a long, long time.  Why anyone would want to sell a horse like him is totally beyond me.  You’re all very lucky to have him in your life.
		
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I have to agree with this 100%, he looks like such a great person to have around!


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## Skib (21 September 2020)

He is a star. I know what  you feel about Amber and heart horse. Partly that may be mare versus gelding. I love mares but my great RI who had her own TB gelding said that what one needed in competition was reliable and predictable. Which geldings are?


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## Ambers Echo (21 September 2020)

Yes. Nearly-but-not-quite selling has been a wake up call and helped clarify how I really feel. I am so relieved he is still here! Ultimately he can't stay forever because I can't afford to run 3. But we are along way off that with Amber's future still being very uncertain.


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## Annagain (21 September 2020)

Sorry to read you've had a bit of a set back with Amber but so pleased you've decided to keep Toby. My Charlie is proving to be very similar to Toby, nothing fazes him and he's very chilled but I suspect Toby is a bit less cheeky. Charlie is definitely exploring boundaries at the moment! I haven't started jumping him yet even thought he's a year older and had jumped a fair bit out hunting in Ireland. I want to sort is canter first. He's a big boy and struggles with canter in the school. I had our first 'proper' one to one lesson last night and got told in no uncertain terms that I am as much the problem as he is - I need to sit on my bum more and not throw him off balance by leaning forwards. We're doing a fun ride at the weekend though so I might pop a few in a straight line, we can canter in straight lines all day!


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## Michen (21 September 2020)

As someone whose heart very much belongs to a certain Bog pony, I have zero plans to sell Bear any time soon. And really didn’t expect to feel like that  keep at it...

Did you get the MRI? Hope it wasn’t too doom and gloom. Xx


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## Ambers Echo (21 September 2020)

No I am still waitig for it. I don't understand why it's taking so long! My vet is currently ignoring me..... I'll chase up this week.


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## Amymay (21 September 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Yes. Nearly-but-not-quite selling has been a wake up call and helped clarify how I really feel. I am so relieved he is still here! Ultimately he can't stay forever because I can't afford to run 3. But we are along way off that with Amber's future still being very uncertain.
		
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This really played on my mind last night when I went to bed (goodness knows why I’m so invested... 🤷🏻‍♀️).

Sounds as if Toby may have had a lucky escape if the potential purchaser was a dealer (which it sounds like).


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## Ambers Echo (21 September 2020)

No the buyer was someone local who knew him through me. We went on the farm ride together and she loved him but he was over budget for her. Thank goodness! She'd have offered a great home. I would not have sold him to a dealer.


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## Squeak (21 September 2020)

Another who's glad you haven't sold him, he looks and sounds like a lovely horse and it would have been very easy to regret selling him.

Sorry to hear about Amber, hope you get some better news for her soon.


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## Coblover63 (21 September 2020)

Phew!  So glad that he's staying a bit longer?  Is he based at Somerford then?  I have camp in LESS THAN THREE WEEKS!!!!! 😁


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## Ambers Echo (21 September 2020)

No but Somerford is only an hour away so I decided to go there with him for a viewing for someone who basically wanted to hack most of the time. I knew he'd be good as gold and a long fast hack was a good test for her. She started off the hack saying 'I'll only walk' and ended cantering behind and in front! Toby was fine with Dolly cantering away and leaving him behind too. By the end of the hack she was saying she was having him but her OH put his foot down on price.


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## EventingMum (21 September 2020)

I'm so glad you're keeping him, he does sound so perfect for you and possibly longer term for the girls.


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## BBP (21 September 2020)

I think I need a Toby in my life. With BBPs current status I don’t think I will ever really ride properly again, but if I did I would love a lovely cuddly sensible TB type that would take me over a few fences and enjoy going out exploring with me. BBP is my horse of a lifetime for many reasons, but he’s also a lunatic (perhaps for good reason) who robbed me of a lot of ‘normal’ horsey activities. That said, I couldn’t afford a Toby!


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## Ambers Echo (20 October 2020)

So Toby has has a jumping clinic with an Olympian! He's going up in the world. I had a clinic with eventing silver medallist and European gold medallist Nicola Wilson. She was very lovely about all the horses but I'll choose to believe her praise of him was sincere. No one who booked on put less than 70/80cm on the booking. I'd put 60, but he held his own in a 70/80cm group.
Weirdly, Nicola commented at the end how like Amber he is: bold and forward. But he used to be cautious and a bit backward. Hard work to get in front of the leg. So the comment threw me till I realised how much he'd changed. He is pretty super-charged now and he really is quite like Amber. Only saner.

He's so cute: he was clipped on Saturday and his coat was velvety. He kept rubbing his nose up and down the fuzz. Obviously liked the feel of it. He stood like a rock throughout and basically went to sleep towards the end. So I can add 'good to clip' to his list of qualities. I am really beginning to connect with him. Suddenly the idea of selling on is very, very unappealing. I think we could be good together.


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## J&S (20 October 2020)

So good to read!


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## Amymay (20 October 2020)

Such a good read!


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## Trouper (20 October 2020)

They do have a way of getting under your skin!!


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## scats (20 October 2020)

So pleased to read this!


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## HashRouge (20 October 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			So Toby has has a jumping clinic with an Olympian! He's going up in the world. I had a clinic with eventing silver medallist and European gold medallist Nicola Wilson. She was very lovely about all the horses but I'll choose to believe her praise of him was sincere. No one who booked on put less than 70/80cm on the booking. I'd put 60, but he held his own in a 70/80cm group.
Weirdly, Nicola commented at the end how like Amber he is: bold and forward. But he used to be cautious and a bit backward. Hard work to get in front of the leg. So the comment threw me till I realised how much he'd changed. He is pretty super-charged now and he really is quite like Amber. Only saner.

He's so cute: he was clipped on Saturday and his coat was velvety. He kept rubbing his nose up and down the fuzz. Obviously liked the feel of it. He stood like a rock throughout and basically went to sleep towards the end. So I can add 'good to clip' to his list of qualities. I am really beginning to connect with him. Suddenly the idea of selling on is very, very unappealing. I think we could be good together.
		
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I think you already are good together 

I mean this in the nicest possible way - you'd be mad to sell him!


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## Roxylola (20 October 2020)

He was cracking last week AE, lovely little horse. He seemed really willing, and really stepped up to the bigger fences. You rode really positively as well and he seemed to really enjoy himself. So glad you're enjoying him


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## SatansLittleHelper (20 October 2020)

I've been praying you'd keep him. Following his progress is great, it's clear how far he's come...he just looks like such a lovely little dude 🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰


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## southerncomfort (20 October 2020)

You do sound pretty perfect for each other.  🙂🙂


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## NinjaPony (20 October 2020)

Honestly horses like that are worth their weight in gold. You won’t regret hanging on to him!


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## D66 (20 October 2020)

But..... I can't find the pictures?!


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## Widgeon (20 October 2020)

D66 said:



			But..... I can't find the pictures?!
		
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Yes! Pictures please!! We want to see Toby performing and modelling his new clip...


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## splashgirl45 (20 October 2020)

glad you have changed your mind  about selling, horses like him are pretty rare , have lots of fun with him and yes more pics please


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## Ambers Echo (30 October 2020)

I usually ride alone but managed to get some clips yesterday.  In the pouring rain. 

He's using himself so much better. He's worked out where his legs are and how to use his back. He'll make an Eventer yet!


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## ycbm (30 October 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			So Toby has has a jumping clinic with an Olympian! He's going up in the world. I had a clinic with eventing silver medallist and European gold medallist Nicola Wilson. She was very lovely about all the horses but I'll choose to believe her praise of him was sincere. No one who booked on put less than 70/80cm on the booking. I'd put 60, but he held his own in a 70/80cm group.
Weirdly, Nicola commented at the end how like Amber he is: bold and forward. But he used to be cautious and a bit backward. Hard work to get in front of the leg. So the comment threw me till I realised how much he'd changed. He is pretty super-charged now and he really is quite like Amber. Only saner.

He's so cute: he was clipped on Saturday and his coat was velvety. He kept rubbing his nose up and down the fuzz. Obviously liked the feel of it. He stood like a rock throughout and basically went to sleep towards the end. So I can add 'good to clip' to his list of qualities. I am really beginning to connect with him. Suddenly the idea of selling on is very, very unappealing. I think we could be good together.
		
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Quite frankly,  you'd be mad to sell that fabulous little horse 🤪


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## Roxylola (30 October 2020)

Ooh flying Toby, he's looking fab.


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## ElectricChampagne (30 October 2020)

Fab! he looks amazing and what a lovely story to read!


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## Coblover63 (30 October 2020)

Yessssss!!!!  This is what I've been waiting for!!!  😁 I'm glad you are expanding your horizons and seeing what you've got right under your nose (and bum!! 😉) I hope you keep him 🤞 xx


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## Skib (30 October 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			So the comment threw me till I realised how much he'd changed. He is pretty super-charged now and he really is quite like Amber. Only saner.
		
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Very glad to read this - But not surprised. For many years I have felt that the horses I hack become similar.
They are not similar on the first ride but become so as they become resceptive to one's personal cues and one's energy. My current  ride cantered me so like my old favourite with such extact transitions, that when we came to a halt I couldnt stop laughing.


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## Red-1 (30 October 2020)

Coblover63 said:



			Yessssss!!!!  This is what I've been waiting for!!!  😁 I'm glad you are expanding your horizons and seeing what you've got right under your nose (and bum!! 😉) I hope you keep him 🤞 xx
		
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^^^ This!


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## Ambers Echo (30 October 2020)

I stiill feel a bit up and down about him. But now that he is going to be mine longer term, something has shifted in my head. There is no way I'm selling to buy another Not Amber horse. If I do sell it would be to just give up and focus on my giant orange field ornament! But I am still keen to ride and develop so I might as well embrace the challenge of producing him as an event horse. Not just as an easy going allrounder to sell on. When I bought him I chose him for his temperament because that is the thing that would make him easy to sell again. He is a true Go Anywhere Do Anything horse. I did not buy with a view to eventing him. His jump was non existet and his flatwork ropey. But he had enough potential to be an allrounder and he was already a safe, sane, easy hack. My jump instructor said he was 'limited' in how far he'd go and while he was lovely as a PC/alrounder she thought he would not do the job I wanted of him. He was too cautious and too clumsy. But I think she has underestimated him. He is learning really fast, he tries his heart out every time and he is just massively gained in confidence. He's gone from tripping over poles and x-poles, and demolishing every jump in sight, to pinging round 80cm courses confidently and now rarely touches a pole. So I am cautiously optimistic that we might end up as a really solid partnership. He is growing more and more on me every day.

A from....to clip which I think shows quite a difference! Especially as I only jump him every 10 days to 2 weeks. He is improving every time I'm on him at the moment.


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## milliepops (30 October 2020)

he looks like his understanding of the job is coming on.
I never understand why people pronounce a horse "not capable" at that stage when they are super green and wobbly and without really much of an education. there's being able to look at a blank canvass and say "it hasn't got the talent for 5*"  OK, i could get on board with that. or "it's not sound enough" mentally or physically. but when there's basically nothing wrong except a lack of knowledge and physical conditioning for an amateur market it seems a bit nuts.  horses change so much with time and training.


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## Bernster (30 October 2020)

How fab to have that kind of video diary. Am thinking I should get a pivo or similar to track my rides!  You ride him very nicely. The July to aug difference really struck me. Great to see this progress it’s encouraging for all of us feeling like we have a way to go!


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## Ambers Echo (30 October 2020)

milliepops said:



			he looks like his understanding of the job is coming on.
I never understand why people pronounce a horse "not capable" at that stage when they are super green and wobbly and without really much of an education. there's being able to look at a blank canvass and say "it hasn't got the talent for 5*"  OK, i could get on board with that. or "it's not sound enough" mentally or physically. but when there's basically nothing wrong except a lack of knowledge and physical conditioning for an amateur market it seems a bit nuts.  horses change so much with time and training.
		
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It did surprise me. And I stopped having lessons after that as I want a trainer to believe in us both. But I assumed she was basing her assessment on something as some people have a 'good eye' for a horse and I really don't! 

His understanding really is coming on. WHen he lands he is looking for the next fence now. He sometimes locks onto the wrong one but I like how he is asking 'that one next?' even if he gets ahead of himself! He's a sweetheart. And a willing attitude can take any horse a very long way I think. I'm hardly aiming for Badminton!


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## Ambers Echo (30 October 2020)

Bernster said:



			How fab to have that kind of video diary. Am thinking I should get a pivo or similar to track my rides!  You ride him very nicely. The July to aug difference really struck me. Great to see this progress it’s encouraging for all of us feeling like we have a way to go!
		
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Aw rhat's very kind. I feel like I'm riding like a sack of potatoes. Though in the October clips I am riding off his back as he seems to prefer that. I am not bouncing several inches with every stride but it looks like that!


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## milliepops (30 October 2020)

well yeah, i was hoping you wouldn't take that the wrong way, but for someone wanting to have fun and enjoy their competition a horse that is willing, trainable and sound is pretty much what everyone wants


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## ycbm (30 October 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I stiill feel a bit up and down about him. But now that he is going to be mine longer term, something has shifted in my head. There is no way I'm selling to buy another Not Amber horse. If I do sell it would be to just give up and focus on my giant orange field ornament! But I am still keen to ride and develop so I might as well embrace the challenge of producing him as an event horse. Not just as an easy going allrounder to sell on. When I bought him I chose him for his temperament because that is the thing that would make him easy to sell again. He is a true Go Anywhere Do Anything horse. I did not buy with a view to eventing him. His jump was non existet and his flatwork ropey. But he had enough potential to be an allrounder and he was already a safe, sane, easy hack. My jump instructor said he was 'limited' in how far he'd go and while he was lovely as a PC/alrounder she thought he would not do the job I wanted of him. He was too cautious and too clumsy. But I think she has underestimated him. He is learning really fast, he tries his heart out every time and he is just massively gained in confidence. He's gone from tripping over poles and x-poles, and demolishing every jump in sight, to pinging round 80cm courses confidently and now rarely touches a pole. So I am cautiously optimistic that we might end up as a really solid partnership. He is growing more and more on me every day.

A from....to clip which I think shows quite a difference! Especially as I only jump him every 10 days to 2 weeks. He is improving every time I'm on him at the moment.







Click to expand...


Clumsy as a baby?  The horse in my avatar was not called Demolition Dan as a four year old for nothing 🤣


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## splashgirl45 (30 October 2020)

i loved him when you first got him and love him even more now,  he is such and honest chap and good looking too.  you were very lucky to find him


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## ITPersonnage (30 October 2020)

Lovely to see your progress in just 2 or 3 months, he's definitely looking for the next fence and he's saying - OK let me at'em  I'm so pleased for you both I could burst!!


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## SatansLittleHelper (30 October 2020)

He coming on in leaps and bounds...literally lol 😁 I have to agree with above, you ride him well, and it shows. I believe you have found a little diamond there xx


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## scats (30 October 2020)

He’s just wonderful!


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## NinjaPony (30 October 2020)

You are right, a good temperament and plenty of time can turn horses into really useful and successful steeds! I honestly believe that temperament is the most important success factor (and soundness but that’s harder to judge!). You can go a really long way on willingness and a try hard attitude. Which he clearly had in spades!

The vet who vetted my boy told me he wasn’t a type I should get if I wanted to do dressage as his paces were too average. I ignored him, bought him anyway and had the best time of my life (plus a successful dressage career!)


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## Ambers Echo (22 November 2020)

Today I was grooming him and he looked at me with his kind, curious, intelligent eyes and I felt a sudden surge of affection for him. I put my arms round his neck and said 'I do love you Toby' and realised it was true. He has finally broken down my defences, 1 nicker and 1 nuzzle at a time. It's taken 6 months but better late than never, eh.

Had another fab jumping lesson. There is so much to work on in terms of straightness and steering. But I can see glimpses of the horse he could be one day. Short clip if anyone is interested.






Also a clip of him 'helping' me muck out. Comedy horse!






Beautiful Toby


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## J&S (22 November 2020)

Very good to hear..... love at last!


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## Wishfilly (22 November 2020)

He is looking amazing!


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## splashgirl45 (22 November 2020)

it took me about 8 months before i fell for my loan horse and i think it does take a while when they are nice and easy,  their characters take a while to show.  glad you have now fallen for him,  he is looking great


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## Michen (22 November 2020)

Ahh lovely to read. I feel the same about Bear, realised it when he got choke and I felt a sudden sense of true panic at the idea of losing him.

Sometimes it takes that moment...


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## ester (22 November 2020)

What lovely updates AE, I had missed the progress video before too.


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## scats (22 November 2020)

Fabulous update.  I’m so glad that you found each other x


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## Jayzee (22 November 2020)

So lovely to read! He looks so fab!


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## milliepops (22 November 2020)

I'm so glad that you've let him in 
I know the feeling that you'll never love another horse when your heart horse retires,  but sometimes another one comes along when you weren't expecting it.


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## Bernster (22 November 2020)

Lovely to read the update and two great videos. He’s such a sweetie.  Sounds like maybe you needed some time to get over the news about amber.


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## Ambers Echo (22 November 2020)

I have really struggled not to compare him with Amber.  Amber is uber-talented and I could hardly believe that a horse like her was mine. _Mine_! Toby just seemed so ordinary in comparison. And too friendly, like an over persistent suitor. It's taken me 6 months to realise that raw talent is not the only thing that makes a horse special. That Toby is just as much 1 in a million with his generosity, work ethic, kindness and total lack of drama or stress! Falls asleep when you clip him, licks the farrier, self loads, says 'yes sure' to every request. And is  very beautiful.
He has won me over and I'm excited about our future.


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## nikicb (22 November 2020)

Such a lovely update.  I have been on a horse related emotional rollercoaster for the past few years - losing my old girl I had for 30 years, getting Cam who then broke irrecoverably at 8, getting Cassie and then losing her to Lymphoma at 13, and now I have Maddie.  So many dreams created, then dashed through those years.  I totally relate to where you are now.  Here's to you and Toby's future together - may it be happy and full of mutual love.  xx


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## SatansLittleHelper (23 November 2020)

Awww I'm so happy for you to read this. Toby is gorgeous 😍 
Horses have a funny way of turning up when you didn't know you needed them.
I love seeing his updates snd how he's progressing ❤


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## Trouper (23 November 2020)

Funny how we think we know what we want and don't recognise gifts from the gods when they turn up in different wrapping.  Love reading about how he is getting on.


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## HashRouge (23 November 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I have really struggled not to compare him with Amber.  Amber is uber-talented and I could hardly believe that a horse like her was mine. _Mine_! Toby just seemed so ordinary in comparison. And too friendly, like an over persistent suitor. It's taken me 6 months to realise that raw talent is not the only thing that makes a horse special. That Toby is just as much 1 in a million with his generosity, work ethic, kindness and total lack of drama or stress! Falls asleep when you clip him, licks the farrier, self loads, says 'yes sure' to every request. And is  very beautiful.
He has won me over and I'm excited about our future.
		
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I liked this post but that's not really true - I love it!!


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## Jeni the dragon (23 November 2020)

So lovely to hear!


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## Annagain (23 November 2020)

That's lovely. I know how you feel. Getting a new horse is so often tied up with losing another or them retiring that it's a strange time of very mixed emotions. It took me well over a year to get where you are with Toby with Archie, having lost Eb so unexpectedly just a couple of months before. I'd decided to get another before he died and I felt so guilty, like somehow he knew and was making things easier for me. I'm getting there a bit sooner with Charlie, maybe because Arch is still around but that brings its own issues as he guilt trips me terribly. Our yard and lane forms an L shape around one corner of they boys' field. Every time I take Charlie out Arch follows us the whole length and then stands there looking forlorn. He really know how to tug at the heart strings! but Charlie's such a sweetie it's hard not to fall for him. We had a lesson yesterday and he was a bit of a toad for 45 minutes then brilliant for the last 15. I wasn't annoyed with him, just really worried he wasn't happy - he's got me just where he wants me already!


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## IrishMilo (25 November 2020)

Toby looks like the sort of horse who would jump the moon for you if that's what you asked of him. You look great together!


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## Ambers Echo (5 February 2021)

What a roller coaster! 

This thread has helped me see things in context and therefore more clearly. So I'm going to keep the diary up as I get too excited on a good day and too deflated on a bad one. I need to see the wider picture.

Shortly after feeling that we were finally really connecting, we had a jump lesson away from home.  (Before Christmas). Toby was on his toes running off with me. We never even left the ground, our 'warm up' lasted the whole lesson and I felt so deflated. The next jump lesson I was with my usual RI. He jumped sideways into a jump wing.  We came round again and he chucked me off. First and only time but it really shook me up. Turned out he had a sore back, probably saddle related. Obviously I stopped using the saddle so had to have a long break from jumping as it took a while to get one and then the weather was against us.

I HAVE to jump regularly or I lose my nerve again completely.  So when I finally got a saddle I felt totally back to square 1, feeling nervous over x poles . And I'd lost trust in him, constantly thinking was it really his back? 

Then we got a personal worst in E Riders dressage in January! 

And in that frame of mind I just wanted to give it all up and have a foal off Amber instead.

But since getting the new saddle he has not put a foot wrong. His flatwork  is much more consistent. Our more recent test was much better. Best of all, I've managed to jump again and he's been great.

I have also become aware that he's much more sensitive than I realised. He goes to pieces if you tell him off. I made the mistake of getting someone to school him who was waaaay too hard on him and he was upset for weeks after that. But he is happy and relaxed again now. I keep sending my horses to other people and regretting it! 

He is a very sweet, very special, very capable horse with the most incredible work ethic and such a desire to please. And I need to stop stressing about every set back or questioning whether set backs means he's not right for me. I had plenty of ups and downs with Amber too! That's just horses. 

Have a pic of the lovely boy:


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## ITPersonnage (5 February 2021)

"Like" doesn't really cover it


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## Laurac13 (5 February 2021)

He is a beautiful soul I am sure you will have many years of great fun together 😊


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## Mule (5 February 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			What a roller coaster!

This thread has helped me see things in context and therefore more clearly. So I'm going to keep the diary up as I get too excited on a good day and too deflated on a bad one. I need to see the wider picture.

Shortly after feeling that we were finally really connecting, we had a jump lesson away from home.  (Before Christmas). Toby was on his toes running off with me. We never even left the ground, our 'warm up' lasted the whole lesson and I felt so deflated. The next jump lesson I was with my usual RI. He jumped sideways into a jump wing.  We came round again and he chucked me off. First and only time but it really shook me up. Turned out he had a sore back, probably saddle related. Obviously I stopped using the saddle so had to have a long break from jumping as it took a while to get one and then the weather was against us.

I HAVE to jump regularly or I lose my nerve again completely.  So when I finally got a saddle I felt totally back to square 1, feeling nervous over x poles . And I'd lost trust in him, constantly thinking was it really his back?

Then we got a personal worst in E Riders dressage in January!

And in that frame of mind I just wanted to give it all up and have a foal off Amber instead.

But since getting the new saddle he has not put a foot wrong. His flatwork  is much more consistent. Our more recent test was much better. Best of all, I've managed to jump again and he's been great.

I have also become aware that he's much more sensitive than I realised. He goes to pieces if you tell him off. I made the mistake of getting someone to school him who was waaaay too hard on him and he was upset for weeks after that. But he is happy and relaxed again now. I keep sending my horses to other people and regretting it!

He is a very sweet, very special, very capable horse with the most incredible work ethic and such a desire to please. And I need to stop stressing about every set back or questioning whether set backs means he's not right for me. I had plenty of ups and downs with Amber too! That's just horses.

Have a pic of the lovely boy:

View attachment 64897

Click to expand...

He is beautiful


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## splashgirl45 (5 February 2021)

lovely boy


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## Cinnamontoast (5 February 2021)

I think it’s key to realise how sensitive a horse can be. Mine is super forgiving, but if I even look funny at the dog, he slinks off.

It’s lovely to read this! ♥️


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## ycbm (5 February 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			What a roller coaster! 

This thread has helped me see things in context and therefore more clearly. So I'm going to keep the diary up as I get too excited on a good day and too deflated on a bad one. I need to see the wider picture.

Shortly after feeling that we were finally really connecting, we had a jump lesson away from home.  (Before Christmas). Toby was on his toes running off with me. We never even left the ground, our 'warm up' lasted the whole lesson and I felt so deflated. The next jump lesson I was with my usual RI. He jumped sideways into a jump wing.  We came round again and he chucked me off. First and only time but it really shook me up. Turned out he had a sore back, probably saddle related. Obviously I stopped using the saddle so had to have a long break from jumping as it took a while to get one and then the weather was against us.

I HAVE to jump regularly or I lose my nerve again completely.  So when I finally got a saddle I felt totally back to square 1, feeling nervous over x poles . And I'd lost trust in him, constantly thinking was it really his back? 

Then we got a personal worst in E Riders dressage in January! 

And in that frame of mind I just wanted to give it all up and have a foal off Amber instead.

But since getting the new saddle he has not put a foot wrong. His flatwork  is much more consistent. Our more recent test was much better. Best of all, I've managed to jump again and he's been great.

I have also become aware that he's much more sensitive than I realised. He goes to pieces if you tell him off. I made the mistake of getting someone to school him who was waaaay too hard on him and he was upset for weeks after that. But he is happy and relaxed again now. I keep sending my horses to other people and regretting it! 

He is a very sweet, very special, very capable horse with the most incredible work ethic and such a desire to please. And I need to stop stressing about every set back or questioning whether set backs means he's not right for me. I had plenty of ups and downs with Amber too! That's just horses. 

Have a pic of the lovely boy:

View attachment 64897

Click to expand...


I hear the start of a wonderful relationship.....



Fwiw, I think you look more of a"picture" on Toby than you did on Amber, he really suits your size and shape.  
.


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## Lucky Snowball (5 February 2021)

Great photo, he's handsome.


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## scats (6 February 2021)

I have a real soft spot for Toby.
I think it can be so hard not to compare horses, particularly when one has been your special horse.  It took me so long to stop wishing Millie was the Diva.  Millie would do something stupid out hacking and all I’d think was ‘Diva wouldn’t have done that’.  Or the wind would be blowing a gale and I wanted to ride but knew I couldn’t safely take Millie out and all I’d feel is this pang of frustration because I knew I could have ridden Diva in a tornado (hypothetically speaking, of course). I was comparing them all the time and it wasn’t fair on Millie.  She isn’t Diva and she never will be, but I honestly don’t think any horse in the world will ever fill that gap for me and I need to make peace with that.

I’m looking forward to seeing what you and Toby get up to this year.


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## Ambers Echo (6 February 2021)

I am really touched at how many people are rooting for me and Toby. Maybe I have been blind to his qualities. But then again when I first had Amber I described her as 'grumpy, thin and switched off' and planned to sell on asap! I am clearly clueless as to what I am sat on. x


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## Ambers Echo (6 February 2021)

ETA I sorted out the thinness and the switched offness. But she stayed grumpy with most people. I sometimes think I loved her more because she was grumpy with everyone EXCEPT me. She liked me. But Toby is totally indisriminate in his affections. He wants to cuddle everyone. WHich is nice, really but I quite liked the exclusivity of being one of the few people Amber accepted! But it is lovely to have a horse who you know anyone can ride and fuss and cuddle.


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## Roxylola (6 February 2021)

Hes a good boy, I think the more he does the better he will get. He just seems very happy to go along with what life throws at him which is such an underestimated and valuable thing in a horse. I like him a lot, he's clearly quite capable and I think he'll really blossom with a job to do (when any of us are able to get out and do anything that is)


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## SatansLittleHelper (6 February 2021)

Having seen your posts here and FB I really have to say that you are too hard on yourself. You ride Toby well and he looks like such a sweetheart, you can see he wants to please. He's not Amber and never will be BUT he IS Toby and that could be a wonderful thing ❤ I'm definitely #TeamToby lol 😁😁😁


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## Ambers Echo (7 April 2021)

So as some may have seen from other threads, I sent Toby to a water trradmill place for a week to - supposedly - strenghten him up and straighten him as he still has a tendency to go crooked. And he came bacl 10X worse! So I booked into a clinic with Tom Beech - Vet and Osteo.

So here is what Tom thought:

Toby was parrot mouthed at the start. His upper incisors were about 1.5cm in front of the lower ones. He was fixed in the poll, tight in the jaw and struggled to bend his neck. His hyoid bone was very tight.

Withers, shoulders, back, sacro iliac were all fine.

Quarters and spine in that area were far too low. And there was a hump where one of the vertebrae was sticking up as a reaction to the low rump. Like instead of a curving spine there was a bit of a pivot around that vertebra.

Tom didn’t know if the hind one was causing the problems with the head/neck or vice versa.

He sedated him then did a load of manipulations to that end to get his back lifted and soft. You could see a visible difference by the end. Then he looked at the mouth again and the incisors were aligned which was very weird! But it showed that the problem was in the hind end and not in the head/neck/jaw. The problems there are just him tensing against pain further back.

He popped the gag on to feel his palate and there is a sharp ridge/hump in the palate where it should be flat. Not the normal ripples you can feel but much further back. That was caused by being broken in roughly and winched into a frame. It long predates me. That probably can’t improve much now. His palate has literally buckled by being under too much tension too young which breaks my heart! The trouble with horses is they are far too willing and generous sometimes. If that was Amber she’d have told them to feck right off! As she should!! Any hint of pain and I was on the deck and she was saying “find me a new saddle this one won’t do anymore!”

So Toby being very fussy in the mouth and anxious when you first pick up a contact is probably remembered pain, and not stretching forward and down etc is because he finds it really hard because his quarters are not strong enough, his core is not strong enough, his back is not lifted enough. And it’s a vicious cycle because it means he works hollow and then everything gets even tighter. He spent 8 days on the the treadmill working hollow!  Tom wants me to do 3 months rehab with his head out in front and low. Eyes aligned with hips. Starting with groundwork and hacking.

Toby is so safe and tries so hard but he really is sensitive too. That has always puzzled me because he is so laid back in many ways - unfazed by flappy bales, terrible weather, new environments, huge vehicles etc etc. But he does get panicky when he is put under any pressure. Not in an unsafe way - he still tries and he still looks after me - he just goes to pieces mentally. Which makes complete sense now I know what his early ridden days were like. Why do people treat horses like that? He is covered in scars too, round his legs and face. Poor Toby. And yet he is still so friendle, gentle and willing. Sometimes we just don't deserve them


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## SaddlePsych'D (7 April 2021)

Bless his heart! He is lucky to have found his way to you. I hope the rehab work goes well.


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## Michen (7 April 2021)

This is really interesting to read. I have the vet back out on Friday for more blocks to try and pin point a mild, intermittent lameness with Bear. If we can’t find anything I will be contacting Tom Beech for sure. 

I am finding it tricky to understand because bar an issue with the canter lead, he only improves in the school and tonight went the best he ever has. 

Horses eh. Hope Toby feels much better when you get back on.


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## Roxylola (7 April 2021)

Charlie has thoroughly enjoyed his rehab. I also got Dan wain to do a video assessment and some exercises to compliment it. I definitely feel he's stronger and more powerful now, and better able to sit now. Its 100% worth it, and your lovely boy will appreciate all that you're doing for him


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## Amymay (7 April 2021)

💕😢😢😢😢😢💕


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## Trouper (7 April 2021)

I have just been recommending Tom Beech to someone else on here with complicated issues with their horse.     
I realise that it must have been hard to hear everything Tom said about Toby but what a revelation - and a plan to move forward.  I hope it all goes well for you both.


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## Wishfilly (7 April 2021)

Poor Toby. 

Some horses are so willing and generous, and people take advantage of that. He is lucky to have you now.


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## Squeak (7 April 2021)

How interesting. Hopefully this will give you what you need to go onwards and upwards with him.  Will be really interested to hear how you get on with him in rehab.

How old is he now?  And out of interest, how much of his history do you know?


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## Errin Paddywack (7 April 2021)

That poor little horse.  Some people really shouldn't have anything to do with horses.  Hopefully now you know what to do to put him on the right path he should be much better.  What a lucky day for him when you bought him.


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## Mule (7 April 2021)

Poor Toby. He sounds so sweet too 

The beast was winched and sawed in a frame too by his previous owner. He was also very stiff, unbalanced and one sided. He  inverted as soon as you picked up the reins. A physio, schooling and patience made the world of difference to him. His previous owner is a good person though. He just didnt know any better.


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## SatansLittleHelper (8 April 2021)

Poor Toby, how absolutely awful some people can be 🤬🤬🤬🤬 Some horses are just too nice and honest for their own good, it's heartbreaking 😢
At least you have information to go forward with now.


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## SEL (8 April 2021)

I think people forget sometimes that they are sitting on a living animal. I'm pretty sure in my younger days I did stuff that today I would be horrified by and i think there are some teaching methods that need to move on and be more horse focussed.

I'm glad for you and Toby you have a way forward. We can't turn back the clock for our broken horses but we can certainly try and make their futures better.


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## Ambers Echo (8 April 2021)

Squeak said:



			How interesting. Hopefully this will give you what you need to go onwards and upwards with him.  Will be really interested to hear how you get on with him in rehab.

How old is he now?  And out of interest, how much of his history do you know?
		
Click to expand...

He is 6 this year. I know nothing about his history. I bought him from a dealer with a reasonable reputation locally. But there were inconsistencies in the story I got from the dealer and what the groom said when he was delivered as the dealer was stuck in Ireland because of storms stopping the boats running when Toby actually arrived. Dealer said  he'd been hacked for 6 months- ie well started - and was a sales livery. Groom said he'd only been with dealer for 10 days and was owned by the dealer. I suspect the latter is true. So who knows what happened to him aged 0-5. I believe that he came over from Ireland shortly before I bought him.


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## Squeak (8 April 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			He is 6 this year. I know nothing about his history. I bought him from a dealer with a reasonable reputation locally. But there were inconsistencies in the story I got from the dealer and what the groom said when he was delivered as the dealer was stuck in Ireland because of storms stopping the boats running when Toby actually arrived. Dealer said  he'd been hacked for 6 months- ie well started - and was a sales livery. Groom said he'd only been with dealer for 10 days and was owned by the dealer. I suspect the latter is true. So who knows what happened to him aged 0-5. I believe that he came over from Ireland shortly before I bought him.
		
Click to expand...

It's so sad when they have a hard time when they're that young.  Frustrating that the dealer wasn't just open about him but I guess in the long run it doesn't matter.  It sounds like you've got a good plan to move forwards now and at just rising 6 hopefully a couple of months of strengthening work will pay off hugely for the future.


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## Widgeon (8 April 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			So here is what Tom thought...
		
Click to expand...

This is a fascinating post AE, thanks for sharing. Also, surely this is just yet another reason why Toby should never leave you!


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## Pearlsasinger (8 April 2021)

Widgeon said:



			This is a fascinating post AE, thanks for sharing. Also, surely this is just yet another reason why Toby should never leave you!
		
Click to expand...


As my late mum used to say 'Everything happens for a reason'.  This is the reason Toby found you.


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## Odyssey (8 April 2021)

I feel so sad for lovely Toby that he wasn't given a great start to his ridden life. He sounds an absolute treasure (and looks gorgeous). I'm very glad for him that you own him, and hope that the remedial work makes him much more comfortable. He could yet turn out to be the right horse for you, once his physical issues improve! He sounds horse of a lifetime material, with his nature and attitude.


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## Ambers Echo (12 April 2021)

It's one thing after another with my poor Toby 

Dentist came today and she happened to notice his eye was cloudy. Same on both sides. Vision appears affected to a degree. No wonder he's clumsy and plows through fences sometimes! Poor horse can't bl00dy see properly. She  would not be drawn on what it might be and has referred for a specialist opinion. I asked bluntly if this could be serious and she said yes.

I had noticed he had a cloudy patch in his eyes but so does my husband and it's harmless. Eyes were checked at the vetting so I thought nothing of it. But apparently it is never normal in horses. 

Vet coming Friday. So the wait begins to get answers.....


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## splashgirl45 (12 April 2021)

what a bummer. hope its not too serious, he is such a lovely horse


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## Michen (12 April 2021)

Try not to panic!!!! It could be nothing.

Massive hugs.


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## Ceriann (12 April 2021)

Poor you and Toby but please don’t panic - it could be something and nothing.  Easy to say I know and a wait for a vet appointment is never easy.


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## southerncomfort (12 April 2021)

Keeping my fingers crossed that it's nothing to worry about.  You guys deserve a bit of luck!


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## Caol Ila (12 April 2021)

Aw, Jesus, AE. Fingers crossed it's nothing. Gypsum has had a cloudy patch on one eye for 21 years (at least), and it has never affected her vision, as far as anyone can tell.  When I first trained her to jump at seven, she didn't quite get it and would plow into things. But once she learned how to jump, she was sh1t hot over fences for a very long time, until arthritis finally got the better of her this year.


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## Roxylola (12 April 2021)

Hoping for something straightforward and fixable for you, hes a lovely chap


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## DressageCob (12 April 2021)

Poor Toby and poor you. I hope you manage to get to the bottom of the eye issue and it is fixable. 

The report you gave on his appointment was so interesting. And upsetting at the same time. some horses are too sweet for their own good. hopefully you will get him more comfy in his work.


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## Michen (12 April 2021)

Also AE if it was something of note surely Tom Beech would have noticed it, especiallly as he's a vet. I'm sure it's nothing to worry about x xx


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## Ambers Echo (12 April 2021)

You'd think so but the dentist was a vet too. So either 1 vet missed it or another vet is over-reactimg to something trivial!


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## CanteringCarrot (12 April 2021)

Really hoping it's a vet over-reacting to something trivial! 

Some vets do miss things though. Especially if they become focused on some other part/aspect of the horse. 

Could really be nothing though. Crossing my fingers for you and Toby!


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## Roxylola (12 April 2021)

I guess it depends where and how they look as well - my Tom Beech was in an American barn style stable, well lit but not like being outside in daylight, and I suppose Tom was coming at it from a different point of view - assessing his body and crookedness maybe. 
Either way sending you some good positive vibes


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## Ambers Echo (12 April 2021)

The weird things is that a few times I have wondered about his eyesight because can be clumsy with poor awareness of my personal space. And does occasionally just miss the jump spectacularly!  And then I remind myself he passed a vetting, is only rising 6, has had no eye injury or insult and tell myself not to be such a paranoid idiot. That he's just a bit in your face because I've not trained him well enough not to be. And there are pllenty of times he does jump cleanly round a course so he's not blind! But whether he struggles to see solid colours, or in lower light, who knows. I've not spotted a pattern but then I've not been looking for one either.


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## Squeak (13 April 2021)

Really crossing my fingers for you that it's nothing.  Horses are such heartbreakers and so stressful sometimes.


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## Chippers1 (14 April 2021)

Buzz had a cloudy eye recently and it cleared up with steroid eye drops - fingers crossed it's that easy for Toby


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## tatty_v (14 April 2021)

Fingers crossed it’s nothing serious for you, it’s the last thing you need!


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## Red-1 (14 April 2021)

Dammit, Friday seems a long way off. Fingers crossed it is nothing serious. X


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## Alibear (15 April 2021)

Fingers firmly crossed for you and Toby for Friday.


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## SatansLittleHelper (16 April 2021)

Possibly a bit early but any update on Toby yet..??? I have everything crossed for him, and you xxx


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## Ambers Echo (16 April 2021)

Phew! I am so relieved. It seems it was the 2nd vet over-reacting option!! She had given a very gloomy handover to the vet who came today who was expecting to find all sorts of pathology but he saud he was happy to say that it was nothing to worry about. He does not know why the eye is cloudy but he says there are 3 questions: 1) Is it painful? No - there is no evidence of irritation, inflammation, infection. Blood supply is normal etc). 2) Is it affecting vision? Not as far as anyone can tell. The film is very subtle and thin, the back of the eye is clear and all the tests they do he passed. So I guess he is just clumsy after all!! 3) Is it progressive? He thinks the eye issues is the same thing that was picked up on the original vetting - which was described as 'corneal scarring' and I was told not to worry about it. So in that case it has not progressed in 11 months. So probably not an issue. So no treatment needed, no special management. So we can crack on with Tom's rehab plans and hope that he feels mentally and physically better very soon. Hurrah.


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## Red-1 (16 April 2021)

Phew! I am glad it is looking positive!


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## EventingMum (16 April 2021)

Great news!


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## Roxylola (16 April 2021)

Such a relief - Charlie fell over on the yard today so you're not alone with an oaf 🙄🤣


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## Jeni the dragon (16 April 2021)

Excellent news!


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## wren123 (16 April 2021)

Great news


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## Pippity (16 April 2021)

Oh, that is a relief! My vets did an online talk about eye health last night, and it did leave me feeling rather optimistic about Toby but I didn't want to say anything, just in case!


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## southerncomfort (16 April 2021)

Yay! Great news!


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## splashgirl45 (16 April 2021)




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## Skib (16 April 2021)

So glad for you.


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## Squeak (16 April 2021)

Yay! Brilliant news. What a relief. I’ve always been a Toby fan so I’m very glad he’s ok.


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## SatansLittleHelper (16 April 2021)

Fantastic,  so relieved for you both 😁😁😁😁😁😁
Fingers crossed his rehab stuff starts to get him back up to speed soon xx


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## [139672] (16 April 2021)

Great news. I love Toby, he’s a sweetie 😊


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## Trouper (17 April 2021)

Such great news!!!   As someone who lives with slight corneal scarring from eye ulcers, I can say that the effect is annoying rather than sight-impairing.  I know you can't really compare horses and human eyes but the only thing I would be on the look out for would be the suggestion that another ulcer was forming - (I keep medication in the cupboard to get on the case quickly).  It certainly does not affect distance judgement.


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## Ambers Echo (25 April 2021)

So I am now very, very upset. Toby seemed unhappy when he came back from the treadmill and when I messaged Tom Beech to book in with him I was clear about his crookedness, him not stepping under as far on the right hind and him not feeling quite right behind. I was so relieved when he said that Toby was not lame it was all sortable with correct work. I have been doing the ground work and walk work religiously and yesterday I popped him up into trot and he felt awful. Just like he did on coming back from the treadmill. I phoned my trainer in a panic and she watched me on him for a few minutes today, Definitely lame on the right hind 

Tom never saw him move, which puzzled me at the time but who am I to question a world authority on how he assesses lameness! But he was lame when he came back from the treadmill and he is lame now. So I can only assume he was lame when Tom saw him too. 

So now I am just taking him to horsepital for a full work up. I know I am being irrational because horses DO recover frm lameness but I have taken 3 horses with subtle issues down this route and 2 are retired and one is dead. 

I have also decided that however Toby recovers he is not going to be my next event horse. I think he would be perfect as a safe happy hacker, who can just enjoy adventures and a varied life. And not have to cope with the stress of feeling pressure on his mouth. I am revisiting my cowgirl past and aiming him to be ridden more or less Western, on the buckle or with super light aids. I'll enjoyu training him like that and then he can be someone's  trusty Pardner. Or mine! 

Please pray for a good outcome for him. I can't believe I am on this journey with yet another horse. And I really, really have not done anything to cause this. My horses are so well looked after. Why do they all break?!


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## ycbm (25 April 2021)

Can't like that AE, I'm sorry you've been let down by an expert, and that Toby isn't right.  If you are thinking of taking him somewhere over this way,  can I recommend Ashbrook? Their customer service beats the other place hands down,  and they have a fab ex-Leahurst orthopedic specialist who has been seeing the horses of two friends of mine. 

He's young,  hopefully he can be sorted.  
.


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## CanteringCarrot (25 April 2021)

Oh that's so frustrating. I find that it's often those that care for their horses the most have the worst luck  

I think going to horspital is the best thing since there are more resources and brains there usually. 

Best of luck.


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## Bellaboo18 (25 April 2021)

So sorry for you AE. 
I know how it feels to think they're all broken...
My only advice is, don't jump to any conclusions and wait to see what the work up shows.
Theres enough people out there riding broken horses, you're in this position because you're a caring owner 🤍


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## maya2008 (25 April 2021)

Both the treadmill and the rehab probably got him moving straighter...but he was crooked because he was protecting something that hurt. Force him to move straight - force him to use the sore body part fully - reveal the underlying problem. At least you can find the issue now! I hope it is an easy fix.


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## Marigold4 (25 April 2021)

Very sorry to hear that. These horses are so flipping delicate. Someone once told me horses are here to teach us how deal with frustration and despair. All my 3 inexplicably have raised liver enzymes - so I know how you feel. We give them the very best of care and yet, they still break


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## Caol Ila (25 April 2021)

I hope it's something fixable. Horses can be so damned heartbreaking.


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## Michen (25 April 2021)

Really sorry to read this. Assumed something bad when I saw you looking for decent dealer recommendations but was hoping it was for a kids pony!

Also, isn't it a bit messed up that we went through an awful time with our "main" horses, and now our project horses are giving us heartache too!! If you and I get a third we will have to keep tabs on eachother because it seems to happen at the same time for us 

On a lighter note though, I really wouldn't be panicking yet. I'm not overly worried (rightly or wrongly) about Bear, and it's really early days for Toby. He's also young and I'm guessing you've read the replies on my thread re Bear, I think there were some really interesting points raised that young horses can go through these periods of unsoundness as they grow, change, develop. It could be something really insignificant.

Edited to add I'm a bit shocked Tom said "this horse is not lame". I don't know how anyone can say that without trotting the horse up. I can understand why he didn't feel the need with Bear, given he had been worked up by a vet already and we knew he was lame, but I strongly disagree that he actually said those words to you without seeing the horse move. He shouldn't have said that.


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## TPO (25 April 2021)

I really hope it's nothing and that the work up puts your mind at ease. Sending  est wishes for you and Toby


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## Red-1 (25 April 2021)

I couldn't bring myself to like your post, but I hope the work up is better news.


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## DressageCob (25 April 2021)

How upsetting. I hope you get to the bottom of the problem. I do wonder if the water treadmill is making him use himself correctly (straighter etc) and he can't mask his injury or problem anymore. I hope you figure it out.


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## Skib (25 April 2021)

So sorry to read this.


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## Ambers Echo (25 April 2021)

Michen I missed your thread somehow. But the answers are reassuring. Fingers crossed it's a wonky young horse issue and nothing too sinister. It seems Tom never gets horses to move when assessing them which in retrospect makes me question what he concluded. Ironic really because I wanted a 'holistic' approach, taking the whole horse into account. But he's more narrow/specific in his focus than a normal vet work up would be.

I'll stick with old school! 

And yes our spares now need spares 

Thanks for kind wishes everyone.  I suppose I worry because he's been crooked the whole time I've had him. I've blamed my riding but maybe he's been guarding an injury all this time. Maybe he was so harshly broken/tied down etc because he was hard work for the breaker who resorted to force? 

Poor Toby. If you let him move how he wants to he's a very cheerful friendly horse and very willing. There is never any reluctance.  So it cant be too bad.....


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## Ambers Echo (25 April 2021)

maya2008 said:



			Both the treadmill and the rehab probably got him moving straighter...but he was crooked because he was protecting something that hurt. Force him to move straight - force him to use the sore body part fully - reveal the underlying problem. At least you can find the issue now! I hope it is an easy fix.
		
Click to expand...

Yes that makes a lot of sense.


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## Michen (25 April 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			Michen I missed your thread somehow. But the answers are reassuring. Fingers crossed it's a wonky young horse issue and nothing too sinister. It seems Tom never gets horses to move when assessing them which in retrospect makes me question what he concluded. Ironic really because I wanted a 'holistic' approach, taking the whole horse into account. But he's more narrow/specific in his focus than a normal vet work up would be.

I'll stick with old school! 

And yes our spares now need spares 

Thanks for kind wishes everyone.  I suppose I worry because he's been crooked the whole time I've had him. I've blamed my riding but maybe he's been guarding an injury all this time. Maybe he was so harshly broken/tied down etc because he was hard work for the breaker who resorted to force? 

Poor Toby. If you let him move how he wants to he's a very cheerful friendly horse and very willing. There is never any reluctance.  So it cant be too bad.....
		
Click to expand...


Yes and I think that’s fine Re Tom’s approach but he should not be telling people their horses are sound if he hasn’t watched them move. I think that’s outrageous tbh. Fine if his methods involve feeling what’s under his hands but that should be relaying information not confirming soundness either way. 

Really hope that whatever it is, if anything, is minor. Xx


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## Ali27 (25 April 2021)

Mmm! I had Tom Beech out to mine and was not overly impressed! He never watched her move either I much prefer Rob Jackson! Although I now use Lisa Brookes and she has transformed my pony, along with great saddler and instructor! Hopefully you get answers from the vet! Apparently Campbell at Nantwich is amazing!


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## scats (26 April 2021)

So sorry to hear this AE.  I feel your pain, having been in your situation before with spares going lame.

Got everything crossed for you and Toby x


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## Tiddlypom (26 April 2021)

Agree that it's very poor that Tom said he wasn't lame without even seeing him move, but hopefully his manipulations will have still have made Toby generally more comfortable. It should make it easier to see what the primary issue is rather than if he was still very sore everywhere.

Good luck, hope that it's easy to find and fix.


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2021)

I am beginning to doubt myself but the very last question I asked Tom was 'so he's not lame then' and he said 'no he's not lame'. I've checked the website again. It is not just for post other investigations work ups it is for evaluation of performance issues, intermittent lamness, worse on one rein etc etc - all the issues I was having. And he knew that he was my first port of call and that Toby had not been seen by another vet yet. It was an assessment not a follow up. I feel quite stupid really not to realise that he can't possibly rule out lameness without seeing him move but I just trusted him and his reputation and figured he knew what he was doing. And for irrational, emotional reasons, the hospital route was just not appealing after 3 bad outcomes and zero good outcomes. 

My guess now is that Toby was injured before I even bought him. The vetting identified the right side issue but said it was nornal in a weak, wobbly 5 yo and nothing to worry about. Which sounds perfectly reasonable onlt in his case correct work has not helped him and the issue is now worse! As others have said - making him work straighter seems to have made the injured part get used and so it is worse. Gah. Why do we have them? Money pits and heart breakers.


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2021)

Typical conversation: me and my non horsey son. Horse money is like monopoly money. It just isn't real. Only it is!

Son: "So Toby is lame?"
Me "sadly yes"
Son: "And Toby was the horse bought while Amber was recovering who you couldnt afford but that was okay as you would sell on for at least what you paid, and probably more, when Amber came back into work?"
Me: "That was the plan, yes"
"But Amber won;t work again"
"No"
And You can't sell Toby?"
"No."
Ok I see. And you're now looking for another one? 
Er, yes.


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## Bernster (26 April 2021)

🙊

Ive been checking a few ads but not looking in earnest. Have decided to simplify my life and not think about getting a 2nd.  So obv I’m bound to find another soon 😝😁😝. Sorry about Toby I hope it’s something simple. They give us so many great things but they do also give us heartache and an empty pocket!


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## Michen (26 April 2021)

I hope the right side issues weren’t noted on the vetting AE or you may have trouble with your insurance.

Tbh i would be careful what you write on here, I’ve lately had an experience with my insurance for Boggle where they’ve used something I’ve written out of context to try and wriggle out of paying- on here.


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2021)

Thanks for warning but he's not insured as my premiums were astronomical after the other 3!


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## ycbm (26 April 2021)

Michen said:



			I hope the right side issues weren’t noted on the vetting AE or you may have trouble with your insurance.

Tbh i would be careful what you write on here, I’ve lately had an experience with my insurance for Boggle where they’ve used something I’ve written out of context to try and wriggle out of paying- on here.
		
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They searched HHO and matched you and him to your claim even though you don't use your real names for either of you?  I assume you didn't insure him as Boggle?

I found that more than a bit sinister,  to take the time to do that, not even knowing if you'd be on HHO in the first place,  or do we have an insurance spy in the camp?


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## Michen (26 April 2021)

ycbm said:



			They searched HHO and matched you and him to your claim even though you don't use your real names for either of you?  I assume you didn't insure him as Boggle?

I found that more than a bit sinister,  to take the time to do that, not even knowing if you'd be on HHO in the first place,  or do we have an insurance spy in the camp?
		
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Yep they did. My YouTube videos link to my real name. 

They literally chose a couple of things I said that were not written with the correct context and used it as a case (or rather, part of).  I am in the process of taking them to the ombudsman at the moment.


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## milliepops (26 April 2021)

AE, just winding back a little. I think Tom said Toby should do 3 months of rehab. Do you know what that was "for"?    I'm just wondering if what you are seeing is something like the manipulation that he did wearing off, and time needed for the rehab work to take over?  I'm just thinking of other horses that have needed repeat work to maintain the adjustments done while the body strengthens up.


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## ycbm (26 April 2021)

Michen said:



			Yep they did. My YouTube videos link to my real name.

They literally chose a couple of things I said that were not written with the correct context and used it as a case (or rather, part of).  I am in the process of taking them to the ombudsman at the moment.
		
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🤬   I think that must mean we have a spy from your insurance company (maybe all of them) on the forum.  There are only a couple of thousand active users who post,  if that.  They can't be searching HHO for every claim to see if they can spot a video that has the user name of one of their clients,  can they?


Sorry for derailing the thread,  AE, but I think this is important stuff for people who are insured to know. 
.


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## Michen (26 April 2021)

ycbm said:



			🤬   I think that must mean we have a spy from your insurance company (maybe all of them) on the forum.  There are only a couple of thousand active users who post,  if that.  They can't be searching HHO for every claim to see if they can spot a video that has the user name of one of their clients,  can they?


Sorry for derailing the thread,  AE, but I think this is important stuff for people who are insured to know. 
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Meh, probably. I mean you should always assume anything you write on a public forum can be seen by anyone etc. But I have nothing to hide Re Boggles claim (it’s the hocks they are trying to get out of), it was just that I’d written something about timings off the cuff and they’d taken that one bit and tried to use it, despite the fact that all my other posts explain it correctly, as does the clinical history and vet visits end notes. 

A bit sad that you have to watch everything you write like that, but that’s the world we live in. 

Anyway this has given me a kick up the arse as I need to sort the paperwork out for the ombudsman submission and have yet to bother a few months later 😂


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## Squeak (26 April 2021)

Michen said:



			Meh, probably. I mean you should always assume anything you write on a public forum can be seen by anyone etc. But I have nothing to hide Re Boggles claim (it’s the hocks they are trying to get out of), it was just that I’d written something about timings off the cuff and they’d taken that one bit and tried to use it, despite the fact that all my other posts explain it correctly, as does the clinical history and vet visits end notes.

A bit sad that you have to watch everything you write like that, but that’s the world we live in.

Anyway this has given me a kick up the arse as I need to sort the paperwork out for the ombudsman submission and have yet to bother a few months later 😂
		
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I actually find that really scary and wrong!  I'm glad you've taken them to the ombudsman about it, it doesn't feel fair or like it should be allowed.  It also feels like it's some sort of breach of privacy/ confidentiality or something?

If you're able to update us on how you get on with the Ombudsman I'd be very interested to hear.  It sounds like the same could be applied to social media if you're security settings aren't completely private or if you posted in a FB group or even if you're friends with someone who works for the company.


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## Michen (26 April 2021)

Squeak said:



			I actually find that really scary and wrong!  I'm glad you've taken them to the ombudsman about it, it doesn't feel fair or like it should be allowed.  It also feels like it's some sort of breach of privacy/ confidentiality or something?

If you're able to update us on how you get on with the Ombudsman I'd be very interested to hear.  It sounds like the same could be applied to social media if you're security settings aren't completely private or if you posted in a FB group or even if you're friends with someone who works for the company.
		
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I’ve no idea tbh. In my response to them over it I just said it was under hand and taken out of context and addressed the other reasons they are trying to not pay. They even suggested my vet wasn’t a reliable source of information as “it’s in their interest to insure the claim is paid financially”. That was a funny one, as I can show that I paid my vets before the claim was ever rejected. I actually put in a complaint to the persons line manager about that as felt it was very unprofessional.

Anyway AE I’m sorry to derail (again!) and I’m glad you don’t have to worry about faffing with unruly insurance companies 😂


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## Squeak (26 April 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			Thanks for warning but he's not insured as my premiums were astronomical after the other 3!
		
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AE I really hope it's just something to do with being a wobbly baby still and nothing actually sinister.  What a rollercoaster you've had with him recently 

Have you got a date yet for him to go in for the work up?


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## milliepops (26 April 2021)

I don't think it's scary, i think it's to be expected that insurers will look to make sure they are only paying genuine claims, it sounds like Michen has been totally transparent and correct and they've got the wrong end of the stick over a detail so it will hopefully all go away.
it's a pain, but i don't see this as anything sinister.  

If anything it's a reminder to everyone to be straight with their insurers, I think!   now and then people on here (usually newbies) suggest ways to try and swing a claim when it's not within the Ts and Cs so i think it's normal that insurance companies would up their game to make sure they weren't being taken for a ride.


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## CanteringCarrot (26 April 2021)

And I thought my insurance company tried hard to get out of paying out. Damn!

I am always nervous posting on here. I share photos, just of my horse doing mundane things such as eating grass, but still.

I'm actually curious as to what the actual issue is with Toby. "Right side" is sort of vague to me. Would be interesting to see his conformation, symmetry, and way of going (if it were my own horse, not saying you have to post this). 

I've had a number of young horses over the years (never bought one older than 5) and they've had a ride or two where they've felt wonky or stiff and I've eased off a bit due to them growing, but not for very long (a week or two, maybe) and then we were back at it feeling pretty decent again. Usual training struggles/humps aside, I've not experienced this ongoing "young horse wonky" thing that people reference on here. At least to the level of persistence and/or length of time that people speak of, so it's interesting to me.

I do use a vet, osteopath, and chiropractor on my horse (and horses over the years) and sometimes do notice a little bit of change, but I've also not had one be incredibly "out" everywhere. I do know that you need to do several treatments in a row to get the full effect, or so they say.

But how do you convince a horse to use its body differently during the other 23 hours of the day we're not working them? Should still change over time with proper work and muscling, but still something I ponder.

Does Toby get worse when out of work? Or with more work?


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## Michen (26 April 2021)

milliepops said:



			I don't think it's scary, i think it's to be expected that insurers will look to make sure they are only paying genuine claims, it sounds like Michen has been totally transparent and correct and they've got the wrong end of the stick over a detail so it will hopefully all go away.
it's a pain, but i don't see this as anything sinister.  

If anything it's a reminder to everyone to be straight with their insurers, I think!   now and then people on here (usually newbies) suggest ways to try and swing a claim when it's not within the Ts and Cs so i think it's normal that insurance companies would up their game to make sure they weren't being taken for a ride.
		
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I think what they did was underhand because they ignored the many, many posts that explain the time lines correctly and tried to pick up on something I’d written to try and pad out their (already rather shameful) argument. I don’t think it was them getting the wrong end of the stick at as the evidence is there for them to see. I think it was them trying to strengthen their argument and make me go away. And to be fair I nearly have, mainly as the effort to try and recoup a couple of k doesn’t always feel worth it, but I’m going to pursue it because I feel they are genuinely wrong to reject my claim. 

But I agree, you have to be prepared that anything you write is visible by anyone, so my mistake was not making sure that I didn’t write things off the cuff. In my case it was something like me saying “months and months of box rest” instead of “3 months box rest”. Or something that ridiculous, can’t remember exactly.


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## milliepops (26 April 2021)

CanteringCarrot said:



			But how do you convince a horse to use its body differently during the other 23 hours of the day we're not working them? Should still change over time with proper work and muscling, but still something I ponder.
		
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it's really interesting on an objective level (deeply frustrating when it's your horse). I was thinking about how this might relate to someone like Andy Thomas who is a complete magician at identifying and correcting rider wonkyness, his take on it is that you just can't expect to be straight 24 hours of the day when we live busy lives and do asymmetrical activities like driving etc for hours at a time. the key is to be straightenable when you need to, to activate the switched off things when it counts, to aim to be straight when you ride.

I have a horse that has *always* stepped wide behind with one hindleg, she's been seen, poked, prodded, flexioned, you name it for unrelated reasons by the vets and we've all accepted she's just like that, she came to me as an older horse and there's probably some reason but does not appear to be uncomfortable or deteriorating in any way. in her work, she is straightenable. it's easy to pop that hindleg under rather than out.  is that enough? I think it probably is. I don't think that horse is ever going to get straightened out so that she doesn't walk that way at leisure, and tbh she's at an age where it would probably cause a problem elsewhere to try and do so. Functional straightness rather than objective straightness is the aim, perhaps.


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## CanteringCarrot (26 April 2021)

milliepops said:



			it's really interesting on an objective level (deeply frustrating when it's your horse). I was thinking about how this might relate to someone like Andy Thomas who is a complete magician at identifying and correcting rider wonkyness, his take on it is that you just can't expect to be straight 24 hours of the day when we live busy lives and do asymmetrical activities like driving etc for hours at a time. the key is to be straightenable when you need to, to activate the switched off things when it counts, to aim to be straight when you ride.

I have a horse that has *always* stepped wide behind with one hindleg, she's been seen, poked, prodded, flexioned, you name it for unrelated reasons by the vets and we've all accepted she's just like that, she came to me as an older horse and there's probably some reason but does not appear to be uncomfortable or deteriorating in any way. in her work, she is straightenable. it's easy to pop that hindleg under rather than out.  is that enough? I think it probably is. I don't think that horse is ever going to get straightened out so that she doesn't walk that way at leisure, and tbh she's at an age where it would probably cause a problem elsewhere to try and do so. Functional straightness rather than objective straightness is the aim, perhaps.
		
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You really brought up some worthwhile points here. I do think it's enough when straightness is accomplished under saddle. That might even be the most important part, but the fitness we build under saddle can also carry over to their leisure time, I think.

For example I had a horse with loose stifles/they'd slip (that stepped in a hole feeling) when not in work. When in work and kept strong, especially in his quadriceps, there was no slipping. So this led to no slipping while riding and while tooling around his field. Which could then lead to the rest of his body just feeling better overall, and some improvement in posture. The "fix" was accomplished through training undersaddle, but carried over to the rest of his time, if that makes sense.

Functional straightness rather than objective straightness is also a really good point.

Also, I'm really insanely jealous of those of you who have the opportunity to ride with Andy Thomas.


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## southerncomfort (26 April 2021)

milliepops said:



			I don't think it's scary, i think it's to be expected that insurers will look to make sure they are only paying genuine claims, it sounds like Michen has been totally transparent and correct and they've got the wrong end of the stick over a detail so it will hopefully all go away.
it's a pain, but i don't see this as anything sinister. 

If anything it's a reminder to everyone to be straight with their insurers, I think!   now and then people on here (usually newbies) suggest ways to try and swing a claim when it's not within the Ts and Cs so i think it's normal that insurance companies would up their game to make sure they weren't being taken for a ride.
		
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This.

Don't know if anyone has watched Claimed and Shamed on BBC1 about shonky insurance claims, but it's now quite routine to check social media accounts etc while assessing a claim.


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2021)

milliepops said:



			AE, just winding back a little. I think Tom said Toby should do 3 months of rehab. Do you know what that was "for"?    I'm just wondering if what you are seeing is something like the manipulation that he did wearing off, and time needed for the rehab work to take over?  I'm just thinking of other horses that have needed repeat work to maintain the adjustments done while the body strengthens up.
		
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He was frustratringly vague about that, really. I like to understand what is going on but the rehab advice was no more than: 'eyes level with hips, backing up, pole work, backing over poles and hacking on a long rein. See you in 3 months.' The 12 weeks seemed like it was that length of time because he was coming back in 12 weeks. So it was 'do that for 12 weeks and I'll see you again'. If he had been coming back in 4 weeks or 6 or 20 it might have been the same advice! As for what is was 'for' - I just understood it to be core and hind end strengthening work. But he looks injured to me. Not just weak. And I now want to know for sure one way or another. I have bought some groundwork DVDs and books and was going through them and I am happy to carry on but I need him investigated now. For my own peace of mind if nothing else. I am not convinced that Tom feeling a horse with his hands is enough to rule out an actual, treatable injury.


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## milliepops (26 April 2021)

I understand the need for a diagnosis, totally. I was just wondering what he told you you were rehabbing, or whether it was a generally useful type of catch-all prescription for a "horse with issues" if you see what I mean. Walk work like that is definitely valuable for niggly not-quite-right kinds of things and I guess it also can't do any harm, allows anything aggravated to settle and could sort of reset the system.

Sounds a lot like what Roxy was give to do which seems to have had a good result. I have no idea if it was right or not in this case obviously but from this layman's POV it's probably safe advice for a lot of problems.


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## Michen (26 April 2021)

milliepops said:



			I understand the need for a diagnosis, totally. I was just wondering what he told you you were rehabbing, or whether it was a generally useful type of catch-all prescription for a "horse with issues" if you see what I mean. Walk work like that is definitely valuable for niggly not-quite-right kinds of things and I guess it also can't do any harm, allows anything aggravated to settle and could sort of reset the system.

Sounds a lot like what Roxy was give to do which seems to have had a good result. I have no idea if it was right or not in this case obviously but from this layman's POV it's probably safe advice for a lot of problems.
		
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It’s the exact treatment plan for mine, too.


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## CanteringCarrot (26 April 2021)

Michen said:



			It’s the exact treatment plan for mine, too.
		
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Seems sort of "generic" ...not saying it doesn't/won't work and is harmful or anything.


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## Roxylola (26 April 2021)

Tom did say to me that seeing sacroiliac type issues seems to be really common for him. So stands to reason that the work he gives is similar I suppose.
He was very clear about what improvements he expected to see in terms of musculature etc to me. It was not simply work this way for now and see you in 3 months.
To be fair, I possibly could have ridden through the issues we've had and got the same result with schooling but I think we'd have either been struggling with him curling up more and/or the possibility of injury as a result of being made to work correctly without unpicking issues first.
Incidentally I've noticed recently he rests both hind legs now more equally rather than mostly the left.
Sorry for hijacking but seemed a bit relevant to the current discussions.

So sorry its not better news for him, he's so lovely


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## milliepops (26 April 2021)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Seems sort of "generic" ...not saying it doesn't/won't work and is harmful or anything.
		
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it does, but then there are no magic bullets really, are there? all soft tissue rehabs are mainly the same regardless of whether it's a ligament or a tendon or where the injury is, it's all gentle steadily increasing controlled exercise... My vets don't bother giving me a plan any more as I've done so many of them, we just say "soft tissue rehab" and off you go  

I sort of see this as similar, if it's a NQR thing, he's not going to come up with something weird and wonderful because otherwise we'd all know about it wouldn't we?


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## CanteringCarrot (26 April 2021)

milliepops said:



			it does, but then there are no magic bullets really, are there? all soft tissue rehabs are mainly the same regardless of whether it's a ligament or a tendon or where the injury is, it's all gentle steadily increasing controlled exercise... My vets don't bother giving me a plan any more as I've done so many of them, we just say "soft tissue rehab" and off you go 

I sort of see this as similar, if it's a NQR thing, he's not going to come up with something weird and wonderful because otherwise we'd all know about it wouldn't we?
		
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Oh I agree. While it seems generic, it is often the path to take anyway. So what else could you expect? If my own horse were NQR it's definitely what I'd be doing too. I do some of this stuff anyway with poles because I think its a good thing regardless. 

A lot of people don't know what soft tissue rehab consists of or aren't so patient with it, so I think it's good when a vet can give out a prescribed plan of sorts.


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## SEL (26 April 2021)

Just as an FYI Tom didn't give me the same plan - he referred me back to my vet for an ultrasound for her SI area and scan / xray stifles. This horse had trotted up for vets many, many times so I was surprised but not hugely bothered when he took a different approach with seeing how she reacted to his manipulations. I have seen him have horses trot up at clinics so I guess it depends on what he sees in front of him.

AE - your non horsey son sounds like my OH. 
Him - "so we have 3 broken horses in the field and you want another one because you aren't getting any younger and want some fun?"
Me - yes
Him - what's to stop another one breaking?
Me - oh you can pretty much guarantee that. It just depends on level of brokenness.

I hope Toby's issue is nothing serious and you get to the bottom of it. I have decided that owning horses and riding horses are two totally separate hobbies. In fact my current hobby is probably amateur vet - they don't need to give me rehab plans for soft tissue injuries either


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2021)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Does Toby get worse when out of work? Or with more work?
		
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Timeline for anyone interested:

May: Ridden at viewing - dealer rode him very very forward, almost pushing him out of balance. I got on and he felt ok to me but I had not ridden since the leg break and was super nervous so the fact that I felt safe on him was what attracted me to him.
Vetted and passed fit for eventing with verbal comment that he was a bit weaker on the right hind but nornal for age and stage.
June Weeks 1-2ish - Difficult to ride, sucking back throwing his head up. Settled quite soon though. Needed riding forward but the the handbrake came off and he was floaty and lovely.
Late June/July/ early August: improving with work. Did some lovely dressage tests, went to camps, loved by trainers and everyone else.
Late August: I went on holiday for 3 weeks. He was lunged and ridden by my former dressage instructor. Friends tell me they were 'arguing' and it looked a bit messy but he produced beautiful work in the end. Maybe she had a point to prove and was overly harsh with him.
I returned expecting floaty lovely Toby post his schooling holiday and he was back to how he had been in June. Awful.
Sept/Oct improving. Doing some lovely work. But then jumped sideways into a jump and I came off. Checked saddle and it was pinching him as he had changed shape.
Nov/Dec New saddle. Awful weather. Still doing nice work but not making further progress which I attributed to weather related lack of consistency
January - Personal worst ever score in a dressage test!
Feb/March improving, better test scores, feeling good but still wonky. Took him to treadmill as the final piece of the puzzle.
End March: Worse than ever before on return from treadmill.
April: Tom Beech. "Not lame, tight in poll, neck, all stemming from tightness much further back. Buckled palate from harsh breaking or riding at some point a long time ago."

And here we are.

Alongside that I would add the mental aspect - he is the kindest most willing horse ever. He tries so hard. But when you try and ride him straight and insist on it he seems to get panicky. Never in an unsafe way but just in a head tossing bit chomping, sucking back kind of way. If he could talk it feels like he's saying 'I can't do it, I just can't' and then getting upset. Though when he is MADE to go straight by better riders than me, he looks fab. And when he is on form, plenty of people incl dressage judges have commented on how nicely he moves!

Someone want to make sense of all of that? There seems to be a bit of a pattern of worse functioning after harder and more 'correct' work.

- His 10 days at the dealer pulled into a frame and pushed forward
- His schooling holiday
- His treadmill week.

I worked him hard at camp and he did not regress but he has always been a bit quarters in with me so it seems that when he is made to go straight something gets aggravated. Not just when the work load increases. That does not sound like he just needs generic gentle strength work to me. Especially as we are talking almost a year now.

But then he has done lovely work in between. So maybe the rehab plan is the right one. Or maybe the hard work uncovers an injury every time and sets him back and that in the end we won't get past a certain level of work without identifying and treating that injury.

My glimmer of hope is Tom feeling that he was not lame. And certainly not suggesting any investigations. But deep down I think I know he has an injury. The questions are where, what and how to fix it. And I really want answers and a plan now.


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2021)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Also, I'm really insanely jealous of those of you who have the opportunity to ride with Andy Thomas.
		
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I'm going tomorrow. I booked in when I felt that all Toby's issues were down to my own wonkiness. I was looking forward to a magically transformed Toby when I straightened up!!
But luckily Dolly can step in so I don't have to cancel as I am sure it will be very helpful anyway.


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## Michen (26 April 2021)

Hmmm. A vetting that identified a “weak” limb. What do they mean by that. My vet said you could describe Bears lameness as weakness, unlevel or whatever but a horse is either sound or lame. No such think as unlevel but not lame. Flight of leg as MP mentions is a bit different I think. 

I think you are doing the right thing getting him looked at. How are his feet, might they be telling a story particularly if barefoot?


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## milliepops (26 April 2021)

is it quarters in both ways or only one way?


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## Tiddlypom (26 April 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			But deep down I think I know he has an injury. The questions are where, what and how to fix it. And I really want answers and a plan now.
		
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Yes, this. You need to find that niggle, whatever it is, and take it from there.

Your current plan to take Toby to a very good horsepital based equine vet  for a workup is spot on. It may be that you still end up doing a post soft tissue injury rehab anyway, but you need to find out what's wrong, because something, somewhere, is amiss.


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2021)

milliepops said:



			it does, but then there are no magic bullets really, are there? all soft tissue rehabs are mainly the same regardless of whether it's a ligament or a tendon or where the injury is, it's all gentle steadily increasing controlled exercise... My vets don't bother giving me a plan any more as I've done so many of them, we just say "soft tissue rehab" and off you go 

I sort of see this as similar, if it's a NQR thing, he's not going to come up with something weird and wonderful because otherwise we'd all know about it wouldn't we?
		
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So if I could let go of the psychological need for a diagnosis would you just do the 12 weeks and go back for a follow up with Tom after that? If it really does not matter where the issue is or precisely what? 

Where do things like anti-inflammatiry injections to settle things down fit in? When I was a runner I spent months in private physio for hip bursitis then eventually went to my GP who injected it with cortico-steroids. Never had a moment's pain from it ever again.


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2021)

milliepops said:



			is it quarters in both ways or only one way?
		
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Both ways.


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2021)

Michen said:



			Hmmm. A vetting that identified a “weak” limb. What do they mean by that. My vet said you could describe Bears lameness as weakness, unlevel or whatever but a horse is either sound or lame. No such think as unlevel but not lame. Flight of leg as MP mentions is a bit different I think.

I think you are doing the right thing getting him looked at. How are his feet, might they be telling a story particularly if barefoot?
		
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He was shod, I took shoes off. His farrier is happy with them and Tom looked at them and had no concerns. Farrier and Tom are friends actually. So farrier was waiting for instructions when he heard I was going, but Tom said no changes needed.


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## Michen (26 April 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			He was shod, I took shoes off. His farrier is happy with them and Tom looked at them and had no concerns. Farrier and Tom are friends actually. So farrier was waiting for instructions when he heard I was going, but Tom said no changes needed.
		
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I more meant if there’s anything in the wear of his feet that could give you some clues. Even perhaps the fronts. Is he landing level etc.


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## milliepops (26 April 2021)

I don't think it's ever wrong to get a horse looked at if you think there's something wrong.
But often times the treatment for whatever it is, is the same, that;s what I meant.  I guess in your shoes (though this is just my interpretation of your shoes from what you've shared  ) I would be back in touch with Tom to say, look i've started the rehab plan, i tried him in trot and he felt lame, does that sound normal at this stage or should I be looking elsewhere now?

I'm only saying that as you were already committed to a longish term plan so I think *personally* that's what I'd be doing at this stage.

I'm a bit with Michen on the weakness thing identified early on, what did that mean exactly? I don't think crookedness is the same as weakness, I think crookedness is more about a dominant side being over active rather than the weak side being weak, necessarily if that makes sense?  Weakness suggests less than normal function or some kind of deficiency. and I'd have expected to need a treatment plan (maybe another 3 month rehab under guidance!) to address that, but as he went to camp and lessons ok etc then I guess it wasn't deemed necessary at that point?

the most rubbish thing about horses is, there's often not one answer. there are multiple ways round a problem (again Michen's vet has been an example of that where there wasn't an outstandingly *correct* approach with Bear at this point - work, turn away ... who knows...?) and also that not everything can be resolved.  I think all we can do is go with caution and be receptive to feedback from the horse


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## Roxylola (26 April 2021)

I'd get in touch with Tom tbh, he was super approachable in my experience. He's also at warrington in May. 
Im a bit same as MP, the likely treatment will be what you are doing anyway


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## Michen (26 April 2021)

I’m not sure I’d be wanting to not try and diagnose a problem that has been going on for a year or more, and leaving it for another 3 months. He had this at the vetting. Most soft tissue injuries in that time would surely sort of heal themselves in some way, particularly when he’s had periods of quiet work. 

It might be something that needs settling through medication (as I saw with a quick improvement through medicating a fetlock). It might be a bone chip that needs removing.  Who knows. 

This isn’t a new thing and it seems to be getting worse not better despite not much in reality being asked of the horse.

If a “new” poster came on here and described the scenario and said the physio or whatnot had treated the horse but not assessed lameness, the over whelming advise would be “you need a vet”. He hasn’t been assessed properly, with flexions and movement tests, by a vet.


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2021)

That's where I'm at Michen.

My only reservation is thast Tom IS a vet and maybe he could advise. But I feel a bit meh about him now! But maybe that is unfair. I have nothing to lose by messaging him anyway I guess.


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## Michen (26 April 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			That's where I'm at Michen.

My only reservation is thast Tom IS a vet and maybe he could advise. But I feel a bit meh about him now! But maybe that is unfair. I have nothing to lose by messaging him anyway I guess.
		
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Yes I know but he didn’t assess him for lameness. And he’s human and they can make mistakes. If you go to him again and he does a full lameness work up then great, but can you imagine a poster coming on here and saying they don’t think the horse needs to see a vet because a physio/Chiro/Osteo has and says the horse isn’t lame (without seeing it trot up etc)

I know he’s a vet but IMO that’s the same scenario, because he didn’t do a lameness work up. I completely understand reasons why he may not look at a horse move as mentioned in my thread but then he absolutely cannot make statements such as “the horse is not lame”.  And  your horse feels lame.


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## milliepops (26 April 2021)

I also wouldn't want an ongoing thing to be left unresolved,  but as you already have a relationship with Tom it does seem like the obvious place to start, otherwise what was the point of going there?  I guess we do all seek advice from an expert and discount it, I have walked out of lessons before because i thought it wasn't right for the horse.   i mean it's a bit moot now as you are booked into horspital anyway  i was just saying that's what I would have done as a first point of call, from the point you're at right now.  He's had a lot of flack on this forum for the last couple of days after one-off trips... but people say he's approachable and good with questions, seems like a lost opportunity if nothing else, to not ask the Q


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## ycbm (26 April 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			This.

Don't know if anyone has watched Claimed and Shamed on BBC1 about shonky insurance claims, but it's now quite routine to check social media accounts etc while assessing a claim.
		
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There's a difference, I think,  between checking social media accounts for a person' or even a horse's name,  and coming onto a forum frequented by a small number of people they insure,  not knowing which users they do insure unless they use their real name as their logon,  then trawling the forum for things that match their client's horse,  finding a video and retreiving the client name from the video file.  

I despise insurance cheats,  but that's going too far,  imo, and the way it has been used against Michen proves it for me.  
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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2021)

Ok I have emailed him! Let;s see what happens next. Nothing wrong with pursuing all options and saving a grand or 2 on vet bills would be handy for sure. 

My intention was not to give anyone 'flack'. I'm just telling people what happened. I am not pissed off with the vetting vet either. I have heard plenty of people say that horses can pass vettings without being perfectly sound because the parameters are very strict and clear. 

Conversely my friend has just done the horsepital route because even though the vet said she was absolutely vet-passing level of sound, there was something very subtly off about how she transitioned into canter. Xrays revealed crushed disc. That was the same vet, but he was looking at it from a 'is there something amiss' way, not from a 'will I pass you' way.


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## milliepops (26 April 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			My intention was not to give anyone 'flack'. I'm just telling people what happened.
		
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no, i didn't mean to suggest you did, it was a carry over from the other thread. I just felt that if I was in TBs shoes, I'd want a client to contact me if there was a problem afterwards rather than discuss it with randoms and just leave dissatisfied. 
There's nothing to suggest he wouldn't also want to know    it's entirely likely that he will come back and say yeah, sounds like a work up is the next step.


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## Roxylola (26 April 2021)

Re flack - I actually don't think that's come from the people who've seen Tom (and definitely not from you) more people who've read reports back but either way, I personally found him super approachable and happy to answer stuff so it would be my first call in your shoes


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## CanteringCarrot (26 April 2021)

Hm. Based off of the timeline *something* is definitely being agitated.

I think you could approach Tom and tell him how it's been going and see what he says. He may also give you some points to start at when he goes to horspital.

It really could be a variety of things or be a peeling the onion type of deal. Just have to find the source of it all. Easier said than done and also depends on how much money you're willing to spend.

Horses can be incredibly frustrating and I have no idea why some people feel that this is a relaxing hobby  I really hope they do find something. As you mentioned upthread it could be something that needs treatment, such as an injection, and without it, you might not really get over this hump. I also want to say that I really respect you doing doing much for this horse and being so dedicated.


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## maya2008 (26 April 2021)

For what it’s worth - and a thing to think about perhaps when buying... a properly started horse (sound, basically) will not be at all weak in terms of a vetting at 5yo. 3yo horses are weak. 5yo horses are in that stage when they are gaining strength and feeling good - and often a little naughty because of it!


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## Bellaboo18 (26 April 2021)

Glad you've emailed Tom, I think it's a good idea to keep these professionals in the loop, after all it's another set of eyes and another opinion. Also if you want to use him in future, he knows the whole picture. 

At this point, I'd want the workup though so hopefully Tom will just support that decision.


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## splashgirl45 (26 April 2021)

havent anything constructive to add but really feel for you..toby is lucky that you bought him and noticed something wasnt right.  many people would have used force on him to get a result and not realise that he has a problem....i have always liked him and if i was able to afford to keep a horse again i would love to have him as a happy hacker and im sure if you wanted to sell someone would love to have him as well....  there are many competent people who dont really want to compete or jump much who would be suitable.  hopefully it doesnt come to that and you can find the problem and get it treated, fingers crossed for the lovely boy..


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2021)

Splashgirl he is destined for life as a happy hacker. I just think he would suit a low key, fun life and he would look after his rider beautifully. So yes I hope I can find him a lovely home with someone who wants that kind of horse. But obviously I need to get him sorted first. x


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## Foxglove (26 April 2021)

ycbm said:



			🤬 I think that must mean we have a spy from your insurance company (maybe all of them) on the forum. There are only a couple of thousand active users who post, if that. They can't be searching HHO for every claim to see if they can spot a video that has the user name of one of their clients, can they
		
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As part of my job I deal with all types of insurers on a day to day basis. They have teams that trawl the internet looking for anything that can reduce the cost of a payout. Given the increase in claims made under equine insurance policies I am not surprised to hear they have now extended this behaviour.


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## Trouper (26 April 2021)

As a veteran of several operations and physio attentions, I can attest that re-hab hurts!!  I hope that this is just that scenario playing out for Toby and, ultimately, there will be progress.   But I am very glad that you have gone back to Tom to give him the opportunity to consider the matter and give you more advice.  Fingers crossed.


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## splashgirl45 (26 April 2021)

good luck with sorting out his problems,  he will be a sought after horse when you get him right..


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## Marigold4 (26 April 2021)

Michen said:



			It’s the exact treatment plan for mine, too.
		
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Same treatment plan and eyes level with hips for me - although you can argue that plan would be good for any horse


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## Michen (26 April 2021)

Marigold4 said:



			Same treatment plan and eyes level with hips for me - although you can argue that plan would be good for any horse
		
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Defo!


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## ycbm (26 April 2021)

Marigold4 said:



			Same treatment plan and eyes level with hips for me - although you can argue that plan would be good for any horse
		
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I don't really get the eyes level with hips thing,  it's not how horses move naturally, even ones bred for it.  My friend trains western quarter horses and has to teach them to go like that.  

Can someone explain in a few words why it's supposed to be so good for rehabbing? Perhaps I should start a new thread. 
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## TPO (26 April 2021)

Eyes level with point of hip = poll highest point and abdominals should be engaged lifting the back

QHs do carry themselves naturally with a low head carriage and lifted back. Their eyes would be lower than hips naturally. When cutting cattle they go even lower in front. 

Chip looks like a ginger llama worh a stubby neck until he moves and genes take over.

Back to eyes level with point of hip. It's harder (impossible?) for them to be inverted in this position. Its simple; not to be confused with easy.

For a horse that has developed the incorrect muscles it will be hard. Much like us doing a difficult pilates position or even something more intense like holding a squat.

Having never yet seen a pessoa used correctly its fair to saw that a lot of people dont have an eye for correct posture and dont seem motivated to learn. 

There is SO much that can be done in a walk and even a halt yet so many are in a rush to get trotting and get working over raised poles. Raised poles are so tiring for a horse and often used without actually paying atye ton to how the horse is moving. Is it dropping a hip, over rotating, engaging abs, flexing hocks equally, so on and so forth. Another reason why walk is better- easier to see everything!


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## ycbm (26 April 2021)

TPO said:



			Their eyes would be lower than hips naturally
		
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They aren't when loose in the field and moving around, I'm not sure any horses are.  It isn't a natural way for most horses to move,  from what I see.  
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## milliepops (26 April 2021)

But with a rider on we're so far from what is natural,  I'm not sure I understand why that is relevant?


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## Marigold4 (26 April 2021)

ycbm said:



			They aren't when loose in the field and moving around, I'm not sure any horses are.  It isn't a natural way for most horses to move,  from what I see. 
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I think it's because by keeping eyes level with hips, you are encouraging a horse to work in a way that uses his back and therefore builds the right muscles to carry a rider. So not natural - but then nor is carrying a weight on your back. I'm no expert though!


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## ycbm (26 April 2021)

milliepops said:



			But with a rider on we're so far from what is natural,  I'm not sure I understand why that is relevant?
		
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I just want to understand why rehab recommendation is to put the horse into a position which it wouldn't normally choose for itself.  
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## TPO (26 April 2021)

ycbm said:



			They aren't when loose in the field and moving around, I'm not sure any horses are.  It isn't a natural way for most horses to move,  from what I see. 
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Like I said, when Chip isnt being an llama that is how he moves about the field  naturally especially when going faster than a trot.

He's not a freak; my friends QHs all move the same in their fields and so do all the horses (& youngstock) at the studs I follow on social media.


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## Roxylola (26 April 2021)

Its engaging the abdominals. Its more than just long and low, they've got to be engaged in their core as well. Again, I understood the reasoning, and it was explained better to me, but it was months ago now and I haven't got all the details at the front of my mind. 
Basically where I've been asking Charlie to load his quarters more and come off the forehand he fundamentally struggled to do it. Now I'm not constantly correcting him hes better able to sit.
It wasn't a lack of correct work in his case, more that his body didn't have the core to support the work. 
I don't know how much if any sense that makes


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## milliepops (26 April 2021)

I don't think it's particularly extreme is it?  It's like a sort of gentle stretch to prelim type of frame..if you've got a horse that has been accustomed to hollowing or letting the back hang like a hammock then it would feel very different,  but for a horse in averagely correct ridden work I don't think eyes level with hips is a strange posture to adopt.


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## TPO (26 April 2021)

ycbm said:



			I just want to understand why rehab recommendation is to put the horse into a position which it wouldn't normally choose for itself. 
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Its rehab; it's a position to strengthen the horse. Neither is it a fixed position but something to aim for.

So many people ride and see inverted horses that arent truly working over their back and think that is correct.

It's also a position that if done correctly means that the horse *has* to be working from behind & engaging their core. Plus they arent on the forehand


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## Michen (26 April 2021)

Can someone post a photo of a horse in that kind of frame that he means, eyes level with hips?


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## milliepops (26 April 2021)

I'm guessing as I've not been to him, but this horse is helpfully boney, perhaps a client can confirm if this is right or not.


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## Roxylola (26 April 2021)

Yeah, looks about it to me


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## TPO (26 April 2021)

Michen said:



			Can someone post a photo of a horse in that kind of frame that he means, eyes level with hips?
		
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From a very quick google










Dont mean this bad but just checking that point of hip has been correctly identified? It's the Tuber Coxae.


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## Michen (26 April 2021)

Aha thank you. But isn’t that just a normal frame that we all want our horses in (unless they are super fancy!)

ETA the photos from TPo I mean


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## milliepops (26 April 2021)

I'd say my pic shows a lower frame than I'd typically use in ridden work of a healthy horse routinely, I want the ability to put the horse there but wouldn't work them that low in general.. as they train on a bit and become more connected they tend to come up progressively.  Jmho.


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## milliepops (26 April 2021)

Just seen your edit. I'd say the canter photo is more of a stretching frame than a working one.

Eta But.... yes. The others are what we'd all want of a normal horse. However, how often do you really see that picture, abs raised, topline soft and reaching, throat open etc... 😬


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## TPO (26 April 2021)

Michen said:



			Aha thank you. But isn’t that just a normal frame that we all want our horses in (unless they are super fancy!)

ETA the photos from TPo I mean
		
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I would say so, that's why I cant understand the questioning of it as it isnt an extreme frame.

Having said that it isnt always that common to see ridden horses in front of the leg and working over their back with abs engaged. There is lots of behind and above the contact and false outlines that look almost on the bit but the back is inverted. 

It's not something that I can do consistently but it is what I aim for overall (but obviously work briefly in all different frames) and "riding in the rectangle". I think it's an easy thing to visualise because eyes and bony point are easy to see and know when they are close to alignment. It's an easier instruction than "engage abs, lift back, stepping under, poll highest point, underside of neck soft, etc, etc" and easier to see!


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## Michen (26 April 2021)

Thanks yes I more meant the palomino. 

So I’m more confused now as all those frames are fairly different, so does he mean the palomino frame or the stretchy frame that you’ve posted 😂


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## milliepops (26 April 2021)

TPO said:



			. I think it's an easy thing to visualise because eyes and bony point are easy to see and know when they are close to alignment. It's an easier instruction than "engage abs, lift back, stepping under, poll highest point, underside of neck soft, etc, etc" and easier to see!
		
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Yeah I think it's a clever thing because of this aspect. When we're all chipping away at stuff alone at home you sometimes need something measurable to tell if you're in the right ballpark or not. Feel isn't always easy to develop especially if its a new way of going . But you can tell if it looks right, if you're given some identifiable markers.

It possibly doesn't matter hugely michen,  if the other landmarks are achieved. (Core engaged,  back swinging, hindlegs under, neck reaching etc)  from the photos it appears that the difference between the palo and the canter is just how much the rider has allowed in front.
But again, I would have thought it best to drop him a line if it wasn't clear at the time?


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## Roxylola (26 April 2021)

I've been going for something like the last photo by TPO, the orange stretchy canter horse


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## CanteringCarrot (27 April 2021)

I do some work with my horse sans lunge line or lead rope in our covered round pen. He  naturally carries himself low and relaxed. He is also this way when lunged in a halter outside. When I am next to him, and ask him to reverse (freely, no later or lead rope) he also reverses with his head lowered (about level with hips). When we hack on a loose rein, he is also carrying his eyes level with his hips when he's relaxed and swinging along at a good walk. 

In the beginning of our rides I often start out in a lower posture, so again, eyes level-ish with hips. Stretching low and over his back. Then his posture changes and the front half of his body lifts as we do more "advanced" work. At the end we go back to a lower stretch at the trot and walk when cooling out. 

He's not necessarily downhill, he's not really made to go downward and out, but it's useful to work the horse in different postures, I think. I often do reverse sets with or without poles and keep his eyes leveled with his hips. I feel his hind end engage, back round up, and abs being used. Also, when a horse has their head lowered/level with hips it promotes relaxation in the body and mind. It is best to do rehab work with a relaxed, receptive, yet engaged body.

I have seen people use a higher head carriage of sorts and different posture when reversing then going into piaffe, but that's a whole different thing with a different end goal. 

To me, it's not hugely unnatural. Then again, unnatural to a certain being does not necessarily equal harmful.

I attached a few photos of my horse (got my brave pants on this morning) in a lower posture that I think illustrates eyes roughly around hip level. It doesn't look totally crazy or anything, and at liberty, when relaxed, they sort of fall into this position I find.

I don't work him in this lower mode for very long under saddle, but I think it's useful that he can do it and have different settings and postures. He also has a nice free and swinging walk, compared to the more sewing machine style he once had (but he can also revert to sewing machine when he's being a drama Llama).


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## ycbm (27 April 2021)

Two of you have questioned why this is being considered extreme. I never said extreme, it's not extreme. 

I also still don't understand why people are being told to ride their horses in that frame, all the time,  for three months.

I get the short periods,  *IF *the hind end is kept under it raises the loins. It prevents the horse from being ridden hollow.  I use it myself,  but as a stretch not a full time way of working.  

I still don't completely understand the rehab instructions, and worse I suspect many people interpret them as "slop along on a loose rein for 3 months".  The first picture, of a horse loose in the field,  looks to me as if it's  dragging itself around by its forehand.  
.


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## CanteringCarrot (27 April 2021)

I do know someone that rides their horse in this "frame" nearly all the time. The horse has kissing spine (and a myriad of other issues, tbh) and this posture has actually been shown to keep the spaces between the vertebrae more open or preventing the condition from becoming worse. I have a video about it with x-rays but it's in German. It also promotes stronger muscles where that particular horse needs them and builds a good foundation for him so he can do a little bit of work in another position. 


Does the average healthy horse need to do it to that extent? No. So it depends on the horse, it's condition/health issues, and the end goal. 

Some people might interpret it as slopping around so it is important that the vet who prescribes the elaborates and shows the client what they need to actually do. You'll always have some level of misinterpretation and poor execution though. That sort of thing just tends to happen with humans left to their own devices.


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## TPO (27 April 2021)

AFAIK no one had been told to ride their horse in that position for 3mths. Even if thay had it's a much safer and more beneficial frame than the frames that many are ridden/lunged in.

Also the horses "prescribed" this work are, on the whole based on HHO posts, already comprised in one way or another because the owners have identified issues. It isn't too different from rehab exercises given to humans. No one is expected to move in certain ways forever but while building & rehabbing issues patients often have to be very aware of how they hold themselves and move as they reprogramme themselves.

Anyone unsure of the instructions given to them by a qualified professional who has treated the horse should contact them for clarification in the first instance. That is more valuable than opinions from faceless entities on the internet. For example my assumption would be that the initial few weeks would be on the ground and walk only yet that doesnt appear to be what is being done as ridden trot is happening. So that's one example of how my perception would be incorrect in this instance and why the giver of then instructions should be contacted.

Really quite taken aback by some of the things that have been said and implied about Tom Beech on this thread and the other. No one is made to go to him or hand over money; it's free choice. AFAIA his clinics are for vet osteo/chiro not work ups and not second opinion work. All of those I'm sure he does if pre arranged but generally speaking he's not about to start a full lameness investigation.

Again, it's been a while since I've read his website but I'm sure he does work ups, vetting and referral work if that if what is booked but anyone rocking up is for the osteo/chiro treatments.


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## HufflyPuffly (27 April 2021)

ycbm said:



			Two of you have questioned why this is being considered extreme. I never said extreme, it's not extreme.

I also still don't understand why people are being told to ride their horses in that frame, all the time,  for three months.

I get the short periods,  *IF *the hind end is kept under it raises the loins. It prevents the horse from being ridden hollow.  I use it myself,  but as a stretch not a full time way of working. 

I still don't completely understand the rehab instructions, and worse I suspect many people interpret them as "slop along on a loose rein for 3 months".  The first picture, of a horse loose in the field,  looks to me as if it's  dragging itself around by its forehand. 
.
		
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I think this is where you need to have a very clear plan from whoever you’re using.

This ‘rehab’ was similar to what my Chiro vet prescribed (I would recommend her to anyone, and she 100% watches them move before and afterwards 😜) but the idea was to do very short intense sessions, so 10 mins in walk over poles in that frame (the more stretchy canter one, stretched and engaged).

Work the core but do not fatigue it, preferably 3+ times a day. If a horse hasn’t been using the right muscles you need to ‘force’ them to until they are strong enough to hold themselves correctly.

If you remember Skyllas pictures the change in her stance was clear, once we got her using the right muscles, even at rest she had better posture.

It’s basic stuff, but sometimes certain horses need a bit of an intensive crash course in building certain muscle groups up.


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## Michen (27 April 2021)

TPO said:



			AFAIK no one had been told to ride their horse in that position for 3mths. Even if thay had it's a much safer and more beneficial frame than the frames that many are ridden/lunged in.

Also the horses "prescribed" this work are, on the whole based on HHO posts, already comprised in one way or another because the owners have identified issues. It is too different from rehab exercises given to humans. No one is expected to move in certain ways forever but while building & rehabbing issues patients often have to be very aware of how they hold themselves and move as they reprogramme themselves. 

Anyone unsure of the instructions given to them by a qualified professional who has treated the horse should contact them for clarification in the first instance. That is more valuable than opinions from faceless entities on the internet. For example my assumption would be that the initial few weeks would be on the ground and walk only yet that doesnt appear to be what is being done as ridden trot is happening. So that's one example of how my perception would be incorrect in this instance and why the giver of then instructions should be contacted. 

Really quite taken aback by some of the things that have been said and implied about Tom Beech on this thread and the other. No one is made to go to him or hand over money; it's free choice. AFAIA his clinics are for vet osteo/chiro not work ups and not second opinion work. All of those I'm sure he does if pre arranged but generally speaking he's not about to start a full lameness investigation. 

Again, it's been a while since I've read his website but I'm sure he does work ups, vetting and referral work if that if what is booked but anyone rocking up is for the osteo/chiro treatments.
		
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I completely agree and remained neutral on my thread. But I do think it’s unprofessional to declare a horse sound to an owner without trotting it up, flexing it etc as a normal vet should. If this was anyone other than a well known Osteo saying this a HHO would be rather outraged. 

The answer should have been I can do a soundness check if you like, or not that I can detect without seeing him move etc. Like I said, he’s only human, and it may be that he missed a few words out in that statement such as “from what I’m seeing so far”.


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## milliepops (27 April 2021)

ycbm said:



			I still don't completely understand the rehab instructions, and worse I suspect many people interpret them as "slop along on a loose rein for 3 months".  The first picture, of a horse loose in the field,  looks to me as if it's  dragging itself around by its forehand. 
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Lol
Well it is 😂
I picked it as you said horses didn't move like that at liberty and there he was,  trundling up the hill with his head and neck down.


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## ycbm (27 April 2021)

milliepops said:



			Lol
Well it is 😂
I picked it as you said horses didn't move like that at liberty and there he was,  trundling up the hill with his head and neck down.
		
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So it isn't the work that's being recommended is it, tootling around pulling itself along on its forehand? So it's not moving as recommended while at liberty.
.


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## milliepops (27 April 2021)

I really find it an odd thing to be bothered about,  the horse at liberty doesn't have a rider on its back. So it doesn't matter if it heaves it's body along on the forehand, it's only supporting it's own organs and shifting them from a to b.

 Surely it matters really when preparing that body to receive a rider, that we then use appropriate postures to make the back the least weak-hammock shaped, and strengthen the underside to be able to maintain that?  Otherwise we set the horse up to fail physically.  What it does in nature isn't relevant,  other than to show it can comfortably perform the postures and may do at leisure. 

Here's a free horse with his head and neck low but not imo lumbering on the forehand, since we seem stuck on this detour 😅  still not the same as in training, but I think if they do this ⬇️ we can say it does no additional harm to position the body similarly in work


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## Tiddlypom (27 April 2021)

The basic walk and trot up, plus lunging in wtc as appropriate (maybe cut that down if horse is very sore), is a fundamental part of the vet assessment (whether chiro, osteo or another flavour of vet).

It is not an additional bonus that the owner should need to request. It is not a work up, it is part of the preliminary assessment. I've variously had regular vets, chiro vet, team GB ACPAT physio, McTimoney chiro, equine non vet osteo and a masseur out to my horses, and the only one who cracks on without seeing the horse trot up is the masseur, because that is outside her remit. She takes in a full verbal update on where the horse is up to re vets, any lamenesses etc though, before commencing.

No vet should declare a horse not lame without seeing it move. It would be perfectly ok to say, though 'Horse is very sore today but I'll treat what I find today, and let's see how the horse progresses/I'd like to come back and assess again in x period of time.'

There seems to be a lot of slack being cut here for *reasons unknown* for not assessing the horse(s) moving.

The only additional 'work up' part that I'd expect a chiro/osteo vet to perform over and above a non vet body worker would be, maybe, flexions.


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## ycbm (27 April 2021)

milliepops said:



			I really find it an odd thing to be bothered about,  the horse at liberty doesn't have a rider on its back. So it doesn't matter if it heaves it's body along on the forehand, it's only supporting it's own organs and shifting them from a to b.

Surely it matters really when preparing that body to receive a rider, that we then use appropriate postures to make the back the least weak-hammock shaped, and strengthen the underside to be able to maintain that?  Otherwise we set the horse up to fail physically.  What it does in nature isn't relevant,  other than to show it can comfortably perform the postures and may do at leisure.

Here's a free horse with his head and neck low but not imo lumbering on the forehand, since we seem stuck on this detour 😅  still not the same as in training, but I think if they do this ⬇️ we can say it does no additional harm to position the body similarly in work
	View attachment 70786

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Bothered about?  All I was asking for was a simple explanation of why it's routinely prescribed.  It's not as if I've said something terribly controversial, though it's beginning to feel that way 🤪.


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## milliepops (27 April 2021)

alright, well you have said multiple times that it's not natural and the horse wouldn't choose it, yet we all (i think!!) know it's not natural for a horse to be ridden and I think I've only come across one person on HHO who has said their horses would choose to be ridden, i guess most of the rest of us are in the camp that it's something we like doing and we try to mitigate any negative effects as much as possible  

so, for me, this way of asking the horse to move is supporting the body for work, and so I don't see why there's an issue about it not being natural. I guess if you want to know why Tom Beech himself suggests it, you'll need to ask him, or one of his clients who didn't understand will need to, and report back  
I've seen physios suggest work like this before for weak or compromised horses, it also seems a lot like standard KS rehab? pretty standard stuff.


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## Caol Ila (27 April 2021)

I think Gypsum would choose to be ridden. I have been back on her for 20-30 minute walks two or three times per week, and her appetite improves when I do this. When I go close to a week (or more) without riding, she goes off her hard feed. And it's not like she isn't getting attention. Either I or OH take her on hand walks and let her hand graze. I don't know if they're related. It's just a correlation I've observed, but you know what they say about cause and correlation.

That's a digression, anyway. Carry on.


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## ycbm (27 April 2021)

Can anyone point me to a simple physiological explanation for why eyes on hip level is routine rehab for back and hind end issues? I've googled and I can't find it at the moment. 

I like to understand these things that are routinely suggested.  Use of a Pessoa is routinely suggested for rehab of kissing spines and you couldn't pay me to put that device on a horse of mine.  
.


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## Michen (27 April 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			I think Gypsum would choose to be ridden. I have been back on her for 20-30 minute walks two or three times per week, and her appetite improves when I do this. When I go close to a week (or more) without riding, she goes off her hard feed. And it's not like she isn't getting attention. Either I or OH take her on hand walks and let her hand graze. I don't know if they're related. It's just a correlation I've observed, but you know what they say about cause and correlation.

That's a digression, anyway. Carry on.
		
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The cynic in me says more exercise/energy expenditure equals hungrier horse/human/animal!


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## Caol Ila (27 April 2021)

I would guess that it's meant to engage and strengthen the abs in lifting the back and bringing the hocks underneath the body? Strengthening those muscles helps horse carry a rider without injuring itself. Is it trying to convey the "bridge" metaphor I've run into countless times in dressage-land? You ask the horse to round and lift the back because a concave structure, like bridge arches, is much stronger than a convex one.

Whether that actually happens depends on _how_ you work the horse. If it's just lugging around on the forehand with its head lowered, it won't do those things. Obviously you know all of this. But maybe "eyes level with hips" is just a really muddled phrase some pros are using to communicate that concept to horse owners.


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## CanteringCarrot (27 April 2021)

That's the German video I mentioned earlier with the x-rays and whatnot if anyone is interested.

Not my opinion on the matter. Just something a friend on FB posted the other day.


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## CanteringCarrot (27 April 2021)

Also, it's best to think of the horses shape has a bridge (curved upward) vs a hammock. You don't want hammock.

The Pessoa puts the horse into a certain shape/the shape needed in order to strengthen the back and abdominals in such a way that it is of benefit to the horse with kissing spine. It also does other things that aren't so great and it's a contraption. Not for me, but some people claim it has helped. Could possibly be better than the horse going around like a feral giraffe. 

If the back is rounded, the vertebrae are not so compressed. If a horse is ridden with a tight hollow back for a long time, it could make vertebrae that were already close touch one another.

I had a warmblood who was on the verge of kissing spine. Posture was insanely important with him and I think prevented the condition from worsening. He had other issues creep up, but it wasn't the kissing spine that ended his career.

Edit: I'm coming back later when I'm not on a mobile phone. So many typos. 😅


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## milliepops (27 April 2021)

CanteringCarrot said:








That's the German video I mentioned earlier with the x-rays and whatnot if anyone is interested.

Not my opinion on the matter. Just something a friend on FB posted the other day.
		
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for us non german speakers... equitopia did something similar.

https://www.equitopiacenter.com/videos/developing-your-horses-back-the-biomechanics-of-engagement/

x rays of a horse stood neutrally and then with the core engaged.

Sue Dyson also on the vid explaining the head positioning being neutral or lower for development of topline strength.


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## CanteringCarrot (27 April 2021)

milliepops said:



			for us non german speakers... equitopia did something similar.

https://www.equitopiacenter.com/videos/developing-your-horses-back-the-biomechanics-of-engagement/

x rays of a horse stood neutrally and then with the core engaged.

Sue Dyson also on the vid explaining the head positioning being neutral or lower for development of topline strength.
		
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I actually prefer this video and the info as well as visuals used. Apparently, according to YouTube I've watched this before. Idk how I forgot about it.

Thanks for posting this.


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## ycbm (27 April 2021)

milliepops said:



			for us non german speakers... equitopia did something similar.

https://www.equitopiacenter.com/videos/developing-your-horses-back-the-biomechanics-of-engagement/

x rays of a horse stood neutrally and then with the core engaged.

Sue Dyson also on the vid explaining the head positioning being neutral or lower for development of topline strength.
		
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👍

My German is long gone!  I can barely believe I have an A level 🙃
.


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## Michen (29 April 2021)

Hows it going AE, did you get any answers for Toby?


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## Ambers Echo (29 April 2021)

Michen said:



			Hows it going AE, did you get any answers for Toby?
		
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Thanks for asking. It's been a roller coaster! I got my own vet out first because I trust him and he vetted Tobes a year ago. He actually agrees with Tom. Not lame, just not quite right. I know your vet disagrees with that option but my vet explained it as muscular not injury. And he is not in pain he just finds it hard. Which is what Tom said basically. He went through all stages of a 2 stage and most of a 5 stage plus a few other checks. And he saw me ride. What I think has happened is that when Toby was quarters in he flowed quite smoothly and felt nice to ride. Now he is straighter he is findind it harder and it feels like it's hard work for him. Which it is! So he feels awkward and slightly hesitant as he strikes off which I could feel and made me think he was lame. But if you do a few transitions in a row he gets the hang of how to move and the feeling improves. So I guess that is just a sign that he is beginning to use the muscles he finds more challenging. So all good. He would pass a vet now but I want him to carry on with the rehab plan. So he's for sale to the right home but not yet advertised. I want him to go to a hacking home via word of mouth/ friends of friends. I need to guard against a dealer buying him and selling him for a profit as a potential eventer because he will be priced as a happy hacker with full disclosure including permission to speak to my vet not a potential eventer with no disclosure - just a vetting which he would pass and a viewing in which a good rider could mask his problems easily. Which is prettyy much what happened to me!


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## Roxylola (29 April 2021)

Well, that makes sense, sounds cautiously optimistic and sounds like a sensible decision all round. Hopefully you can the perfect home for him, I'm sure you will


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## Ambers Echo (29 April 2021)

Thanks Roxylola. I am quite emotional anbout it all because I feel like I am letting him down. But he would be happier in a hacking home and I want to event. And there is no reason his next family won't adore him and give him the exact kind of life he would love. So it's not rational to keep him.


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## Caol Ila (29 April 2021)

Would he be happy and comfortable being owned by a fairly inexperienced teenager (but lovely and very responsible) and family? I think the lass wants to play about over small fences, learn the dressage basics, hack in the park, and mostly just have a nice time.


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## Roxylola (29 April 2021)

I've only met him once, but he's a nice person and would imo make a lovely club horse and friend for someone to go out and have fun with their best pal. That person isn't you so inevitably one of you is going to be unhappy. You're too nice to force him to be unhappy and too driven to compete to be happy pottering. He came to you when he needed you and that's enough.
I know it's not easy, but the right thing will come along at the right time


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## Michen (29 April 2021)

That all sounds sensible, how about loaning with a view to buy? Then you can semi secure his future whilst he is getting stronger and becoming 100%.

I get there are good and bad points to loaning though but might make you feel mentally better about moving him on sooner rather than later, even if he's still in rehab.


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## Ambers Echo (29 April 2021)

Roxylola said:



			I've only met him once, but he's a nice person and would imo make a lovely club horse and friend for someone to go out and have fun with their best pal. That person isn't you so inevitably one of you is going to be unhappy. You're too nice to force him to be unhappy and too driven to compete to be happy pottering. He came to you when he needed you and that's enough.
I know it's not easy, but the right thing will come along at the right time
		
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That means so much. Thank-you. I know it's silly. But he's a sweetheart and such a trier. My RI thinks I'm doing the wrong thing and he will event. But I am not sure I want that for him and I would end up frustrated and that's not helpful for either of us. Square peg/round hole. x


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## Annagain (29 April 2021)

Would he cope with a bit of jumping (80 max), fun rides and hacking? A friend is looking and he could be perfect for her if so.


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## CanteringCarrot (29 April 2021)

I definitely think there is someone out there for him. I have a friend that would suit a horse like him. Plus, if you're not in a rush or some sort of pressing situation you can be more selective.

I would trust your gut re the eventing thing. While you need the right partner for any type of equestrian sport, I feel like it's even more crucial in eventing. Just speaking from my own experience.


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## Ambers Echo (29 April 2021)

Michen said:



			That all sounds sensible, how about loaning with a view to buy? Then you can semi secure his future whilst he is getting stronger and becoming 100%.

I get there are good and bad points to loaning though but might make you feel mentally better about moving him on sooner rather than later, even if he's still in rehab.
		
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I am not ruling anything out. A friend of mine has a friend in her local hacking group who has just lost a horse in traumatic circumstances. She is interested as my friend is a big Toby fan. We have ridden together a few times. She is very into groundwork and Western and would (my friend assures me) carry on with the rehab plan. So that is hopeful. Something will come up that makes sense to me, him and them!

Caol Ila - well at the moment I am not picking him up into anything resembling a dressage frame, and whoever has him needs to be happy spending a few weeks ambling about eyes level with hips and not doing a lot. But potentially in the future that is the kind of home I want.


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## Ambers Echo (29 April 2021)

Annagain said:



			Would he cope with a bit of jumping (80 max), fun rides and hacking? A friend is looking and he could be perfect for her if so.
		
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Eventually yes. He likes jumping, But not right now! I doubt anyone wants a mid rehab horse unless they personally know me/him/a trusted friend who personally knows me/him and enjoy that kind of work. He is absolutely fine to hack now. But I would not want him jumping yet.


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## ITPersonnage (29 April 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			What I think has happened is that when Toby was quarters in he flowed quite smoothly and felt nice to ride. Now he is straighter he is findind it harder and it feels like it's hard work for him. Which it is! So he feels awkward and slightly hesitant as he strikes off which I could feel and made me think he was lame. But if you do a few transitions in a row he gets the hang of how to move and the feeling improves.
		
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I don't want this to sound like I'm arguing with you, you know how you feel but what you have written does not lead me to draw the same conclusion as you - if this is a phase where he's starting to use the right muscles, wouldn't it be normal to find this hard? Why give up now ? Isn't this the bit that young horses need ? 

There may be more to it and I am sure better people than me will have opinions too. Just seems that all young horses will go though this in order to get stronger ? Maybe this is just not what you want to do with your time, in which case, changing him for a more developed horse is probably the way forward for you. Best of luck whatever you decide, I really do hope you find what you are looking for


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## Ambers Echo (29 April 2021)

IT, the issue is his anxiety when under pressure. His buckled palate, which causes him to suck back and toss his head which set the whole hind end issue off as he works hollow. The panicky sense I get from him when he is picked up into a contact. I think he will end up perfectly straight and sound and my RI think she has lots of potential. But I just feel he is happiest ambling about in the countryside having fun and that is not the kind of life my horses have. I don't mind young but he is not just young, He is young and damaged by an idiot who tied his head down when breaking him in. I could possibly help him get over that remembered pain in time. Or I could let him have a more relaxed life that does not cause him any worry. I might be wrong but that is the choice I have decided to make.


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## ITPersonnage (29 April 2021)

Aah OK, I get it now thanks for that.


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## HufflyPuffly (29 April 2021)

For what it's worth AE I think you are spot on with him, sometimes just because a horse can doesn't mean it would be what they are happiest doing.


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## SEL (29 April 2021)

I think you're making the right call. My little pony with the displaced palate can work nicely in an outline on a very good day but it can also cause her distress. We (me and vet) think it sometimes 'flops' more than others and makes it uncomfortable for her as well as making breathing tough. She's a bombproof hacking pony and that needs to be her future home

Have you ever tried Toby bitless? I'm not suggesting you change your plans but it might be interesting to see how he does if that pressure on his palate is taken away

I don't think horses care if they could event, do dressage etc etc - they just want to be happy and enjoy life. If Toby enjoys hacking then there will definitely be the right home out there for him.


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## ycbm (29 April 2021)

I'm confused about the buckled palate, AE. Did Tom explain the mechanics of how the palate, which is (of course)  up between the sides of the top jawbone/teeth, could have got buckled by rough breaking?   I can't picture what a buckled palate means,  can you describe what you can see or feel?  I'd like to be able to check my new baby out,  he's not had the most conventional of starts himself.  

You plan to sell him as a happy hacker sounds spot on.  
.


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## Upthecreek (29 April 2021)

I think you can spend/waste a lot of time trying to make a horse into what you want when sometimes the best decision for everyone is to admit that you aren’t suited, find a more suitable home for the horse and move on. Some people agonise over this stuff for years, making themselves totally miserable in the process and missing out on the activities they want to do because the horse isn’t suited to them. It’s always a risk buying something that isn’t already established in your chosen activity, particularly if it’s eventing. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn’t. I’m sure there is a perfect new owner out there for Toby who will love him for what he is.


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## milliepops (29 April 2021)

Very pleased for you both that your vet didn't find something else to be concerned about, that must be a big relief. hope the rehab plan continues to help him get stronger and straighter for his new career


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## Ambers Echo (29 April 2021)

Ycbm, Tom has the gag on and got me to feel along roof of his mouth, behind the normal ripples. He said it should be flat but there was a marked ridge. He said pressure on his mouth and his efforts to escape it were so intense it caused his palate to buckle which is now irreversible . How precisely, I don't know.


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## Ambers Echo (30 April 2021)

SEL said:



			I think you're making the right call. My little pony with the displaced palate can work nicely in an outline on a very good day but it can also cause her distress. We (me and vet) think it sometimes 'flops' more than others and makes it uncomfortable for her as well as making breathing tough. She's a bombproof hacking pony and that needs to be her future home

Have you ever tried Toby bitless? I'm not suggesting you change your plans but it might be interesting to see how he does if that pressure on his palate is taken away

I don't think horses care if they could event, do dressage etc etc - they just want to be happy and enjoy life. If Toby enjoys hacking then there will definitely be the right home out there for him.
		
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That's really interesting Sel. Toby also often does lovely work but we kept ending back in that unhappy place of resistance and tension on the flat. Definitely interested in exploring bitless with him.


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## SEL (30 April 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			Ycbm, Tom has the gag on and got me to feel along roof of his mouth, behind the normal ripples. He said it should be flat but there was a marked ridge. He said pressure on his mouth and his efforts to escape it were so intense it caused his palate to buckle which is now irreversible . How precisely, I don't know.
		
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I'm guessing it's scar tissue. Even if it was some sort of natural ridge it would understandably make him uncomfortable


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## Ambers Echo (14 May 2021)

Just a brief update. Feeling cautiously optimistic about him. He seems freer in his movement and more relaxed. Hacked him out in a bitless bridle and he seemed pretty happy with it. 

I feel that my head has been all over the place though because I am getting such different advice from different people. My regular massage therapist telling me he feels great. A physio telling me he feels awful. . Tom saying he is really sore. My vet saying he can't find much soreness. And lots of poeple saying there;s nothing wrong with him.. And on other days saying 'he's lame get a vet'. The reality is that he is a different horse on different days!

So today I took a deep breath and thought ok what is 'real' and what is in my head. What is 'normal' and what is an issue needing a special approach. 

So here is what I think:

1) His backing process was traumatic. Evidence: how stressed he was when I first tried to ride, pick up a contact. How the viewing was handled. The physical evidence in his mouth
2) He has done some lovely relaxed work since then - for weeks/months at a time.
3) He has also had epsiodes of being right, stiff, tense and unhappy since then - usually when I have been away or sent him away and someone else has worked him.

Then my RI mentioned the possibility of hind gut ulcers.....

4) Ulcers would explain that pattern - they flare up when he is stressed and settle when he is happy
5) Maybe he had them when he arrived after a trip from Ireland and 10 days in draw reins or whatever happened to him, but they settled soon.
6) The treadmill was stressful so maybe they flared up again then
6) He could be hollow and tight because of ulcers as much as from the mouth issue. Because although the contact issue has always been there, the severity of it comes and goes.

So I have started him on Ron Fields Pre Ulc and we will see if that helps him. I spoke to Ron and he said it woud either make a big difference within a week (if he does have hindgut ulcers) or no difference at all (if he doesn't). He shows no other signs of ulcers other than not wanting to move freely forward in an arena. Shiny coat, good weight, not girthy. But seems worth a try anyway.


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## SEL (14 May 2021)

Is that the pink powder that smells of bubblegum? It's good stuff and sorted my big mare out. I've followed up with his liquid gut stuff and I'm about to run out so I'll see how she goes without it.

A friend recommended it to me after it worked wonders with her gelding. Hope you get good results .


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## ycbm (14 May 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			Just a brief update. Feeling cautiously optimistic about him. He seems freer in his movement and more relaxed. Hacked him out in a bitless bridle and he seemed pretty happy with it.

I feel that my head has been all over the place though because I am getting such different advice from different people. My regular massage therapist telling me he feels great. A physio telling me he feels awful. . Tom saying he is really sore. My vet saying he can't find much soreness. And lots of poeple saying there;s nothing wrong with him.. And on other days saying 'he's lame get a vet'. The reality is that he is a different horse on different days!

So today I took a deep breath and thought ok what is 'real' and what is in my head. What is 'normal' and what is an issue needing a special approach.

So here is what I think:

1) His backing process was traumatic. Evidence: how stressed he was when I first tried to ride, pick up a contact. How the viewing was handled. The physical evidence in his mouth
2) He has done some lovely relaxed work since then - for weeks/months at a time.
3) He has also had epsiodes of being right, stiff, tense and unhappy since then - usually when I have been away or sent him away and someone else has worked him.

Then my RI mentioned the possibility of hind gut ulcers.....

4) Ulcers would explain that pattern - they flare up when he is stressed and settle when he is happy
5) Maybe he had them when he arrived after a trip from Ireland and 10 days in draw reins or whatever happened to him, but they settled soon.
6) The treadmill was stressful so maybe they flared up again then
6) He could be hollow and tight because of ulcers as much as from the mouth issue. Because although the contact issue has always been there, the severity of it comes and goes.

So I have started him on Ron Fields Pre Ulc and we will see if that helps him. I spoke to Ron and he said it woud either make a big difference within a week (if he does have hindgut ulcers) or no difference at all (if he doesn't). He shows no other signs of ulcers other than not wanting to move freely forward in an arena. Shiny coat, good weight, not girthy. But seems worth a try anyway.
		
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Right hind leg issues go with hind gut ulcers too,  AE, I hope you are on the right lines there.
.


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## splashgirl45 (14 May 2021)

good luck, hope it works ,  fingers crossed


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## CanteringCarrot (14 May 2021)

Definitely worth a try! I'm interested to hear if you see any changes.


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## Squeak (14 May 2021)

I'm also interested to hear how you get on.  I've got a horse that doesn't like the farrier doing her right hind and can be a bit stiff to the right and especially as she's an ex-racer have wondered if it could be ulcers (vet (rubbish one) dismissed me straight off as she's in good condition and shows no other signs).  I tried her on aloe for a couple of weeks and not sure I noticed any difference tbh but maybe the Ron Fields would be worth a go.


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## SEL (14 May 2021)

Squeak said:



			I'm also interested to hear how you get on.  I've got a horse that doesn't like the farrier doing her right hind and can be a bit stiff to the right and especially as she's an ex-racer have wondered if it could be ulcers (vet (rubbish one) dismissed me straight off as she's in good condition and shows no other signs).  I tried her on aloe for a couple of weeks and not sure I noticed any difference tbh but maybe the Ron Fields would be worth a go.
		
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My mare was obese when she was diagnosed! She's a good doer, but I actually think she ate to try and relieve the pain.


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## Squeak (14 May 2021)

SEL said:



			My mare was obese when she was diagnosed! She's a good doer, but I actually think she ate to try and relieve the pain.
		
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That's really interesting.  I've never seen a horse eat like this one does but she's never been overweight, I'd always put this down to being a tb though.


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## Ambers Echo (15 May 2021)

SEL said:



			Is that the pink powder that smells of bubblegum? It's good stuff and sorted my big mare out. I've followed up with his liquid gut stuff and I'm about to run out so I'll see how she goes without it.

A friend recommended it to me after it worked wonders with her gelding. Hope you get good results .
		
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That's the stuff and it seems to be helping. Though as I have aso changed to bitless, done over a month of the exercises Tom told me about, changed how I ride to long and low only and done body work with him, who knows what the magic ingredient is!

Still I am happy with how he is moving, and more importantly, the 'vibe' he is giving me in which he is back to pre treadmill Toby. Willing and happy.


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## Ambers Echo (15 May 2021)

Well I have put a very speculative ad up for him. Let's see who comes along.... I am very torn but equally I think there are many kind, loving, patient people out there who would adore a Toby. And so it's arrogant to assume only I can give him a good home. I am not really giving him that good a home as I don't really like hacking!! I have several friends out constantly on all day fun rides, picnic rides etc who he would have much more fun with. Sadly none of them are looking but he'd fit right into that little group of hacking buddies. Someone suitable will come along and I'm in no hurry and can wait till they do.


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## Bellaboo18 (15 May 2021)

AE can I ask what bitless bridle you've gone for?


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## Ambers Echo (15 May 2021)

I borrowed a friend's sidepull. No idea of the brand.


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## Bellaboo18 (15 May 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			I borrowed a friend's sidepull. No idea of the brand.
		
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Thank you


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## splashgirl45 (15 May 2021)

AE  ,  there seem to be a few of us on here who would be suitable for him so i am sure there will be the exact match out there.  if you were closer and i could afford to keep him i would be the type of home you need(maybe someone a bit younger) , hacking and pleasure rides with regular lessons to help with my own position etc...perhaps i will win the lottery tonight!!


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## Michen (15 May 2021)

Sounds promising!! Unless selling to someone you know it may be worth thinking about loaning with a view to buy, he could so easily get pushed on and resold or whatnot especially as he’s not quite right and working through some stuff. The market is so nuts and there’s some awful people out there, on another thread there was an example of an older horse that was bought and then immediately back to for sale for another 2k on the price. 

There’s some lovely loan homes out there and it would mean you can secure his future and then sell to them once they have properly gelled etc.


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## Ambers Echo (15 May 2021)

I'm having a total nightmare. I'm driving myself totally mad. There is huge interest in him and I've got a viewing tomorrow which is PERFECT. An old friend so definitely not a lying dealer!!. My friend and his wife have been sharing a horse for over a year and want 1 each now to mainly hack and go on horsey holidays with and to the beach etc. Lovely people, perfect life. Zero interest in competing. And I just feel sick. My head is saying he is not your future event horse so just get this done and then take a break to save up and then start looking for your forever horse. And my heart is saying NOOOOOOOOOOO. I am so so so close to cancelling the viewing and taking the ad down and resigning myself to the fact that he's with me for keeps, for better or for worse....... 

Arrghhh, Someone knock some sense into me. If I don't go through with it I worry I will just resent him next season for not being the horse I want him to be. He deserves to be someone's horse of a lifetime not my slightly disappointing non-eventer. On the other hand, if I sell him will I wind up with a much trickier prospect or a less genuine horse and rue the day I let a horse as easy and kind as him go?

Incidentally my RI hopped in him today for the first time in 6 weeks just to see how he felt. I am not imaging it - he is a completely different horse now from the one who came back from the treadmill. Whatever we are doing is working. Another reason I feel like I have chosen the wrong moment to sell. I put the ad up because I felt he had made enough progress to be sellable with disclosures as to what work he needs and what the issues are. But he has made so much progress that I am now thinking well maybe he IS good enough to event after all.  And maybe he could accept that kind of life.

I just have no idea what to do anymore.


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## Amymay (15 May 2021)

Let the friend see him. Since the day you got him you’ve talked about selling him. And as much as I think you’d be mad to, he’s obviously not ever going to be a horse you really want.


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## milliepops (15 May 2021)

i don't think you've felt committed to him from the start.  so while I think a safe sane horse is worth its weight in gold (what I would do for one right now!!!) I think you put this ad up for a reason.... I'd go ahead with the viewing especially since it's a home you rate.


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## Upthecreek (15 May 2021)

It’s tough. You love him for his temperament, but he is not the horse to do what you want to do. You have experienced a horse that excites you and makes your heart sing and Toby just doesn’t do that for you. Not his fault, not your fault. You aren’t in a mad rush to sell, so you can find him the best possible match and move on to find yours. I would certainly go ahead with the viewing and see how you feel and what they think of him.


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## CanteringCarrot (15 May 2021)

He feels great now, but will he when you ask him to do more/event at your desired level? If he feels his best now, while in a more low-key routine, then he should be sold to someone that wants to do that. It sounds like every time he is brought back into more work/schooling/intensive exercise, something comes up. Whether if is reservations from you, or body issues for him.

Go through with the viewing. Maybe you'll get a really good feeling watching him with these other people.


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## splashgirl45 (15 May 2021)

it has taken you a long time to decide he doesnt set you alight and even if he could do what you want he is not the horse for you.  your friends sound ideal, please let the viewing go ahead and see how they get on with him.  sounds perfect to me...


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## SEL (15 May 2021)

I had someone come and ride the microcob today. As loan homes go for a pony with a breathing problem she's perfect - so I started to wobble too! I'll have nothing to ride when she goes. I think it's important to focus on the bigger picture. Toby isn't going to be your eventer no matter how hard he tries and he will suit someone down to the ground and free you up to look for a long term Amber replacement. 

And my little pony would be spoilt in a home where pootling on hacks will be her job.


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## Ambers Echo (15 May 2021)

Thanks everyone.  I am feeling calmer. I am hugely fond of Toby but I like him most when I'm not actually riding him! I'd happily hang out with him forever in the field or stable but you are all absolutely right: riding him is relaxing and fun but it is not inspiring and exciting. I will never find another Amber but I do believe I can find a horse who makes me feel excited about our future. Amber had so much potential which meant she allowed me to chase impossible dreams. It's that dreaming and planning and working towards goals that I miss so much. Toby is  not that horse and he should be with someone who thinks he's perfect, exactly the way he is.


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## SatansLittleHelper (15 May 2021)

It's so difficult isn't it...he really seems like a lovely chap but it just doesn't sound like he's "the one". If he was you wouldn't be having this argument with yourself. 
Amber is very special to you and irreplaceable BUT there will be another out there somewhere who will light you up in the same way x


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## Ambers Echo (16 May 2021)

The messages are interesting, I have had about 60 pms. The ad is so detailed and makes it so clear that matching him to the right home is a priority. But at least half make no effort to explain why they might be suitable. JUst a 'price please' or 'has he hunted' or 'interested pm me'.  Er, no. 

On the other hand there are many people sending pictures, detailed descriptions of what they want and can offer, references etc. I have a shortlist to ring if the viewing today does not wok out.  So I am confident he will end up somewhere decent. x


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## Ambers Echo (16 May 2021)

Incidenally I don't necessarily expect people to write War and Peace just to get to view a horse. But when you are inundated with messages you need to find a way to decide who to get back to and who to rule out. So I am grateful for the people really trying to explain why they might suit each other. It's making me feel a lot better to see how many thoughtful experienced people out there think they might want a Toby type. x


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## SatansLittleHelper (16 May 2021)

Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Not seen his ad but if all of the relevant info is in there then it's not asking too much for potential purchasers to give you a bit of info.


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## splashgirl45 (16 May 2021)

i have just messaged someone about their older horse ;looking for a hacking/dressage home which is exactly what i want so have put a bit of info about my experience and that i am an older person  and that i keep horses for life and never sell or pass on.  as he sounds so right for me i wanted to let them know it would be a forever home and hope they like the sound of me.  fingers crossed....so its not too much to ask that people applying give you an idea of the sort of home etc....good luck


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## Ambers Echo (16 May 2021)

Sold subject to vetting. To my friend. Mixed feelings but mostly happy. X


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## Ambers Echo (16 May 2021)

They adored him which helps. I overheard my friend saying 'he' just totally perfect for us'.


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## Upthecreek (16 May 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			They adored him which helps. I overheard my friend saying 'he' just totally perfect for us'.
		
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I know you can’t be sure they will keep him forever, but much more chance of that when selling to a friend. I have sold to friends twice and both horses had wonderful homes and weren’t sold on. Had agreements with both that I would have the option to buy back first if they ever wanted to sell.


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## Mule (16 May 2021)

I'm glad and as it's your friend you'll be able to keep in touch


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## brighteyes (16 May 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			Well I have put a very speculative ad up for him. Let's see who comes along.... I am very torn but equally I think there are many kind, loving, patient people out there who would adore a Toby. And so it's arrogant to assume only I can give him a good home. I am not really giving him that good a home as I don't really like hacking!! I have several friends out constantly on all day fun rides, picnic rides etc who he would have much more fun with. Sadly none of them are looking but he'd fit right into that little group of hacking buddies. Someone suitable will come along and I'm in no hurry and can wait till they do.
		
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Just read this from start to finish and am sad you have decided to sell him. We are in the process of looking for another, low-level all rounder, to be here for life and he might do our job perfectly. 
I hope you get a secure home for him after all he has been through.


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## splashgirl45 (16 May 2021)

great news, sounds like a good result all round, hope the vetting goes ok and you can start to look for your special horse...


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## SatansLittleHelper (17 May 2021)

Really pleased for you AE, and Toby...even if it is a bit bittersweet at the moment. 
it sounds like he is going to be someone's everything.....YOU did that, you've made him into a lovely chap who is going to give someone alot of fun and pleasure


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## Trouper (17 May 2021)

Sometimes we are just a stepping stone to help them on to where they need to be and doing what they can comfortably do.  I don't think anyone could have done more for him and I am glad that you will be able to keep a distant watch on his progress.
Time to think about your own equine future now!!


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## Squeak (17 May 2021)

It sounds like a really good home for him and I'm so excited for you to start looking for your next horse.  Can't wait to see what you find.  I always think with horses you have to keep looking forwards.


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## Ambers Echo (17 May 2021)

Thanks SLH but to be fair, he was lovely and sweet when he arrived! Though I have spent a lot of effort identifying why he found working correctly difficult and anxiety provoking. So I am pleased about that.


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## Ambers Echo (17 May 2021)

I should be excited about the search but I really am not. The current market is mad. Not just the prices but the pressure to make instant decisions etc. I am not indecisive at all but I think a lot of sellers are offloading suspect horses because people are making quick decisions under pressure. If you;ve missed out on 4-5 horses because you've not been quick enough, then I can see how you can feel like you HAVE to buy anything halfway decent even if the viewing facilities were highly limited and the vendor was hard to get info out of.

My RI knows a horse in Ireland she thinks could suit me. I think I will wait for something like that - a horse to be found for me by someone that actually knows the horse really well. Trawling through ads is NOT appealing. At all.


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## Meredith (17 May 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			I should be excited about the search but I really am not. The current market is mad. Not just the prices but the pressure to make instant decisions etc. I am not indecisive at all but I think a lot of sellers are offloading suspect horses because people are making quick decisions under pressure. If you;ve missed out on 4-5 horses because you've not been quick enough, then I can see how you can feel like you HAVE to buy anything halfway decent even if the viewing facilities were highly limited and the vendor was hard to get info out of.

My RI knows a horse in Ireland she thinks could suit me. I think I will wait for something like that - a horse to be found for me by someone that actually knows the horse really well. Trawling through ads is NOT appealing. At all.
		
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I am glad you have found Toby a good home.

I bought my pony last autumn without vetting. This was something I said I would never do. I cannot waste months of my remaining riding time looking for the non existent perfect horse. After viewing 5 unsuitable ponies I took a chance, so far all is well.
 I had thought that horse sales would settle as we move out of lockdown but that doesn’t appear to be the case. I am glad now I purchased when I did as I am able to continue riding.
I don’t envy your search at all in these days of even more crazy prices and instant sales but wish you the best luck with your next as yet unknown horse.


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## Hannahgb (18 May 2021)

I just wanted to say I really admire you for doing what is right for him. He was lucky to have you set him up so well and put his needs at the top of the list.
Really hope you find the perfect one for you!


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## Ambers Echo (24 May 2021)

Well he passed a 5 stage vetting today and he is off to pastures new. He is going to my friend and his wife. I heard the vet say 'there's a lovely horse in there' during the ridden work when he gave me beautiful paces in between the giraffe moves. He is so much better since the long and low work started and we talked about all that with the vet today who said the owners should continue hacking him in straight lines, working long and low, keeping up the ground work excerises. And I know they will. They are committed to him long term.

So end of one chapter and the start of another....

I could have got a lot more money for him in the current market but having a wide choice of homes was the best outcome for everyone. And no risk that I will see him on FB in a couple of weeks with a silly price tag!


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## SEL (24 May 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			Well he passed a 5 stage vetting today and he is off to pastures new. He is going to my friend and his wife. I heard the vet say 'there's a lovely horse in there' during the ridden work when he gave me beautiful paces in between the giraffe moves. He is so much better since the long and low work started and we talked about all that with the vet today who said the owners should continue hacking him in straight lines, working long and low, keeping up the ground work excerises. And I know they will. They are committed to him long term.

So end of one chapter and the start of another....

I could have got a lot more money for him in the current market but having a wide choice of homes was the best outcome for everyone. And no risk that I will see him on FB in a couple of weeks with a silly price tag!
		
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That's good news - and if he's with a friend then you can see how he's getting on which is nice.

Time to start looking again!


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## Jeni the dragon (24 May 2021)

Great news, I hope they're really happy!


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## Amymay (24 May 2021)

Good luck to Toby in his new home.


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## Upthecreek (24 May 2021)

Great news for both of you and it sounds like they will provide him with a lovely long term home.


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## bouncing_ball (25 May 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			This.

Don't know if anyone has watched Claimed and Shamed on BBC1 about shonky insurance claims, but it's now quite routine to check social media accounts etc while assessing a claim.
		
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I think it was pretty routine 5-10 years ago. I had a horse with more than one issue with a gap between first and second issue. The insurance told me they had stalked horse on line, and found competition records proving was sound in the interim, and was the only reason they agreed to pay.


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## Ambers Echo (25 May 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			i have just messaged someone about their older horse ;looking for a hacking/dressage home which is exactly what i want so have put a bit of info about my experience and that i am an older person  and that i keep horses for life and never sell or pass on.  as he sounds so right for me i wanted to let them know it would be a forever home and hope they like the sound of me.  fingers crossed....so its not too much to ask that people applying give you an idea of the sort of home etc....good luck
		
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My friend is selling an older dressage/hacking horse if you are interested. He is very lovely. Forward but safe and a real sweetheart.


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## bouncing_ball (25 May 2021)

HufflyPuffly said:



			I think this is where you need to have a very clear plan from whoever you’re using.

This ‘rehab’ was similar to what my Chiro vet prescribed (I would recommend her to anyone, and she 100% watches them move before and afterwards 😜) but the idea was to do very short intense sessions, so 10 mins in walk over poles in that frame (the more stretchy canter one, stretched and engaged).

Work the core but do not fatigue it, preferably 3+ times a day. If a horse hasn’t been using the right muscles you need to ‘force’ them to until they are strong enough to hold themselves correctly.

If you remember Skyllas pictures the change in her stance was clear, once we got her using the right muscles, even at rest she had better posture.

It’s basic stuff, but sometimes certain horses need a bit of an intensive crash course in building certain muscle groups up.
		
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Which chiro vet do you use? thanks


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## HufflyPuffly (25 May 2021)

bouncing_ball said:



			Which chiro vet do you use? thanks
		
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Angela Holland x


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## splashgirl45 (25 May 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			My friend is selling an older dressage/hacking horse if you are interested. He is very lovely. Forward but safe and a real sweetheart.
		
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i didnt even get a reply on the horse i went for.  he sounds nice but i dont want anything bigger than 15,2 and ideally even smaller as i have arthritis in my shoulders which makes it difficult to groom, what height is he?


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## Ambers Echo (25 May 2021)

15hh


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## Ambers Echo (25 May 2021)

Welsh x Danish warmblood. Not chunky at all. Looks like an Arab I think. But isn't.


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## splashgirl45 (25 May 2021)

sounds promising, where in the country is he?


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## Ambers Echo (2 June 2021)

So possibly the final update but I do love a happy ending.... I dropped Toby off last week. He's less than an hour away. Since then he has been hacked every day. He's gone out solo with each new owner and out together with their other horse. Gone off road and on road. Hasn't put a foot wrong in any situation and they describe him as 'perfect'. I'm so glad he's found his happy-ever-after.


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## Amymay (2 June 2021)

Really great update AE xx


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## Bellaboo18 (2 June 2021)

Really pleased for both of you


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## ycbm (2 June 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			So possibly the final update but I do love a happy ending.... I dropped Toby off last week. He's less than an hour away. Since then he has been hacked every day. He's gone out solo with each new owner and out together with their other horse. Gone off road and on road. Hasn't put a foot wrong in any situation and they describe him as 'perfect'. I'm so glad he's found his happy-ever-after.
		
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Great news AE. I got an update yesterday nearly 3 years after I sold my cob,  about how much they love him.  It's just great when you can match a horse that really isn't for you with someone who loves the very bones of them.  
.


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## southerncomfort (3 June 2021)

Fantastic news. 🙂


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## Red-1 (3 June 2021)

Great update. 

I too got an update yesterday, from the sporty horse I sold because I was under so much pressure with mum ill. She jas qualified for just about anything and everything! Going to Hickstead. They are a FAB partnership and I am so happy for them all. It os great when they land on their feet, and do you proud at the same time.


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## chaps89 (3 June 2021)

I'm so happy that Toby has settled in well and you've had a positive update



Ambers Echo said:



			My friend is selling an older dressage/hacking horse if you are interested. He is very lovely. Forward but safe and a real sweetheart.
		
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On the (slim) off chance he's still for sale would you mind sending me the details please, he sounds spot on for my mum.


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## Jeni the dragon (3 June 2021)

A lovely update!


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