# Crufts



## jasmine (7 March 2011)

Anyone at Crufts on sunday?


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## Brownmare (7 March 2011)

Yes! All being well I'll be watching a friend compete


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## Vizslak (7 March 2011)

thursday for us this year. Any fellow AADers going on thurs?


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## s4sugar (7 March 2011)

I'm there Sunday - come & meet Cyd on the Borzoi stand at discover dogs.


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## Oenoke (7 March 2011)

Im going Thursday with Skye to compete at agility and I may be going back Sunday to watch with a couple of friends.


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## Katikins (8 March 2011)

Does anyone know if this is going to be on TV at all?  I know all the controversy but I do love watching, especially the obedience, flyball and agility!


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## MyBoyChe (8 March 2011)

Yes, its on More4 Thurs-Sun evenings.


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## UnaB (8 March 2011)

Im there Saturday and Sunday hopefully, puppy sitter permitting


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## jasmine (8 March 2011)

If anyone would like to say hi, I'll be by the shiba inu ring from 9 am  (especially you Una B   )


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## UnaB (8 March 2011)

jasmine said:



			If anyone would like to say hi, I'll be by the shiba inu ring from 9 am  (especially you Una B   )
		
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Would be lovely to finally meet up!


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## Clava (8 March 2011)

Two puppies I bred are being shown in the Parson Russell class


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## Paint Me Proud (8 March 2011)

I am showing on Thursday (Large Munsterlander) and will be manning the Discover Dogs stand on Sunday. Can't wait 

And big bonus I only live 30mins away from NEC so it's not a massive trek for me and mr four legs


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## echodomino (8 March 2011)

I'm going on Saturday with my agility instructor, mainly to shop for puppy stuff and to watch the puppies' dad compete in the agility. Am also going Sunday with OH and his mob in tow, to watch my agility instructor compete.

So I'll be bobbing around and about


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## EAST KENT (8 March 2011)

WE`ll be there on Saturday at the bull terrier/min. bull terrier ring.Two of our mini BTs are competing, Badlesmere Bookworm ("Tonic") and Badlesmere Beast Released ("Mole")

    Also we will be "bullying with our buckets" to get Welfare money,and Our little" rescued from the Weston Dump" Lucy,  will have her story and pics on our Welfare stand,along with some needy others looking for homes.
    Love to meet up,BUT bring  some lucre for welfare please!!


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## blackcob (8 March 2011)

I was hoping to go on Thursday but dog sitter (MIL ) is now unavailable, hmph. 

I am going to apply for the canicross exhibition next year so I can take the wolfydog with me.


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## Vizslak (8 March 2011)

Paint Me Proud said:



			I am showing on Thursday (Large Munsterlander) and will be manning the Discover Dogs stand on Sunday. Can't wait 

And big bonus I only live 30mins away from NEC so it's not a massive trek for me and mr four legs 

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Ooo another gundoggy day person, me and Flora will have to track you down!


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## Paint Me Proud (8 March 2011)

Vizslak said:



			Ooo another gundoggy day person, me and Flora will have to track you down!
		
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We will be the nervous looking young lady handler with the very tall munsterlander with a rather bushy white tipped tail


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## jasmine (8 March 2011)

Good Luck to everyone who is showing


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## Tillypup (9 March 2011)

Vizslak said:



			Ooo another gundoggy day person, me and Flora will have to track you down!
		
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I will be there on Thursday too!!! Just got the afternoon walk to get through (Fingers crossed no galloping "incidents"), bath and claw trim then we are heading to my Mum's tonight and getting ready for the early start tomorrow!


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## jasmine (12 March 2011)

Well, Isabel is bathed and blowdried 

This time tomorrow, will all be over for another year.


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## Dobiegirl (12 March 2011)

Good luck for tomorrow Jasmin.


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## Annette4 (12 March 2011)

I didn't spot anyone  if you spotted a gormlous 20 something with an check shirt and orange hair it was meee. I was looking.


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## buffy2 (12 March 2011)

Jasmine don`t for get the sarnies :


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## Tillypup (12 March 2011)

Thursday was a long but succesful day for Fifi and I. I was overjoyed when she was placed 3rd in the junior class, so this means we have qualified for Crufts next year. I am doubly pleased with this as she is out of Junior in April so qualifying would be doubly hard after that!


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## EAST KENT (13 March 2011)

Well for us it was a magic day!   Mole got the dog CC,and my Tonic was third in open...BUT Tonic`s sister Magrat got Best of Breed and had a long slot on telly in the terier group    Mgaic! Bloody knackered today


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## SamanthaG (13 March 2011)

Looking forward to BIS tonight, my pups dad is through! Max the Boxer


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## MurphysMinder (13 March 2011)

Well done EK.


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## Maesfen (13 March 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Well for us it was a magic day!   Mole got the dog CC,and my Tonic was third in open...BUT Tonic`s sister Magrat got Best of Breed and had a long slot on telly in the terier group    Mgaic! Bloody knackered today  

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I liked her!  Well done, great achievement.


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## Goya (13 March 2011)

Well done everyone.


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## MurphysMinder (13 March 2011)

Ooh I missed your result Tillypup, well done.  By the way I like your website.


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

Well done EK and TP


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## Laafet (13 March 2011)

Well done everyone who went - I am stuck between the flat coat, GSD (yes I am a convert) and naturally the Poodle for BIS.


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

For me, it's got to be the flat coat (gundog you see, as well as being gorgeous to boot) with the GSD as a close second choice because he looks such an athletic dog


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

Flat Coat Flat Coat Flat Coat!!!  With the GSD second. Both beautiful dogs, that looked so happy to be in the ring,


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

Elmoooooooooooooooooooo

I have to live vicariously through you guys...


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## RuthnMeg (13 March 2011)

Flat coat for me too. Possibly the poodle for reserve.


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

Anyone else in tears over the Soldier and his dog??


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

Every time I see anything about that story I'm off again


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

And now all the Friends for life stories, I'm a blubbering wreck


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

I'm drowning!!!!!


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

Come on Bob and Jake (although they are all amazing dogs)


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

I want Grace and Merlin to win, purely on the basis that he is an Otto look-a-likey!


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

Bless him, not a camera fan


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## MurphysMinder (13 March 2011)

Yep soldier and dog set me off.  Needless to say my vote is for Elmo, like either the flatcoat or boxer for second.


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

Nope! And Otto would have done the exact same thing! Windy little creatures 

Glad Joanne and Kaiser won, think they were the most deserving realistically.


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## MurphysMinder (13 March 2011)

Spudlet said:



			Bless him, not a camera fan

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I bet we could all see that was about to happen, obv the camera man not a dog person.


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

Keep me posted pleeeeeease....can't do two online streaming jobbies at once and we only have five channels at Mucksavage Towers


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## Dobiegirl (13 March 2011)

So pleased Grace & Kaiser won this poor lady was so isolated before and people taking the mick, that dog has turned her life around.

Its got to be the GSD for me I think he is a cracker and the retriever for reserve.


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## MurphysMinder (13 March 2011)

The programme after Crufts could be interesting "How to buy a puppy".  Has the potential to be good, or alternatively very bad for my blood pressure.


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

All fantastic dogs, how could you pick a winner really?


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## MurphysMinder (13 March 2011)

Aren't you watching it online CC?


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

Wasn't it on after last year's Crufts? If it was, then yes, very much a shouty at the TV program!

OH has just said he wants Elmo to win


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

.....aaaaand...Elmo...please!!!!

MM, can't as Mum is downloading stuff and it is too annoying


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

Sod that, the final episode of Being Human is on BBC3 after this

Here come the finalists, once Mike Tucker*(?) finishes blathering on that is...

*If it's not Mike Tucker, I think it's his soundalike


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## MurphysMinder (13 March 2011)

And those 3 weren't particularly fit for function.


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## MurphysMinder (13 March 2011)

For CC, Elmo is looking good, just came in gaiting to heel, nice one Stevie!


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

I know....would be nice to bring the whole thing full circle, eh!


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

Come on Eric (possibly the cutest name for a Bichon Frise ever!)


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

Oh no CC, Elmo's back legs just fell off...


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

Elmo doesn't seem to be stacked in the same way I have seen GSDs being done in the past? Seems to be being posed with less angulation at the back?


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

Ah well, Steve can use him for some skiing practise instead 

He's probably just being stood free Spuds, those pics you see are of dogs pushed and pulled, most of them stand much nicer on a loose lead. She said, again


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## MurphysMinder (13 March 2011)

Named after Eric Morecambe, brilliant.


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

Jet is just beautiful, the happiest dog I've ever seen that wasn't a spaniel (and the main reason I'm saving my pennies for one!)


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Ah well, Steve can use him for some skiing practise instead 

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Oh, and he just bit the judge, nasty vicious breed!!  

Oh god, him and the Boxer are going on the rampage, they've just eaten Eric!!


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

kirstyhen said:



			Jet is just beautiful, the happiest dog I've ever seen that wasn't a spaniel (and the main reason I'm saving my pennies for one!)
		
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There used to be one at work, he was just lovely! Died quite young though, he had a problem with his spine I think. Not sure if it's a breed problem, or just bad luck?


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

Ooooh, they mentioned Schutzhund!


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

ELMO! Put that judge DOWN!


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

Kirsty, I love you


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## MurphysMinder (13 March 2011)

Can't believe how complimentary the commentators are being about Elmo, what a pleasant change to last year.


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

Fox terrier seems to be wriggling a bit when the judge goes over him?


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

Spudlet said:



			There used to be one at work, he was just lovely! Died quite young though, he had a problem with his spine I think. Not sure if it's a breed problem, or just bad luck?
		
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They're supposed to suffer from Bone Cancer I think. I fell in love with them last year at Crufts being benched next to them, and then met two absolutely fabulous ones at my friend's yard.
So pennies are being saved, research will be done and a FC will be our next addition! BUT it has to be the perfect one, bred to work, healthy etc etc. Or maybe another Springer...


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

Just tried again, keep getting a black screen with a green wiggly line, ARGH!!!


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

Spudlet said:



			Fox terrier seems to be wriggling a bit when the judge goes over him?
		
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Probably a bit unbalanced after Elmo took it's back leg off! I call for a Mandatory GSD muzzling law at Crufts, perhaps just ban the lot of them!


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

Don't suppose Coxy is wearing shorts......


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

Well they have had to cut the feed CC, while they mop the floor and find a judge to replace the one Eric and Elmo have just eaten...


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## RuthnMeg (13 March 2011)

Arhhh, I've lost Crufts.tv connection. Typical


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

That green squiggly line was the only bit of fake grass left unstained...


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Don't suppose Coxy is wearing shorts......
		
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No, he must be trying to conceal that wooden leg he has after those Al-say-shuns ate his real one...


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

And someone turned the lights off after the massacre


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## MurphysMinder (13 March 2011)

It seems to have gone on the online site, typical.  Nope he's not in shorts, the natty suit again.  He is handling him for the occasion, not like his normal style.


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

I just LOVE Jet the flat coat, he looks like he could go all day, and that tail!


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

Oh god, the judge (replacement) sent them round again, Elmo got loose and jumped into the crowd, it's pure carnage... meanwhile the Flat Coat's tail is still wagging!


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

MM if he handles him like he handled Loretta in the group a few years back, he'll do great  brought tears to my eyes....


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## Annette4 (13 March 2011)

Joanne and Kaiser are local to me....I'm so chuffed they won, I see them quite a bit.


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

Goodness, you'd think that Elmo would be full by now...


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## MurphysMinder (13 March 2011)

Yes I saw him with Loretta, fair dos to him.
The flatcoats got it.
PBGV reserve, and Elmo has just gone out of the ring on the end of a long lead, back to normal.


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## Annette4 (13 March 2011)

Flat coat won!!!!


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

It's the flat coat!


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay! Gundog Mafia rejoice with me!   

(Have to say, Elmo woz robbed, maybe... )


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## RuthnMeg (13 March 2011)

yippeee


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

The Griffon Basset got second - I thought Elmo would have got that, I am surprised. Not that she isn't a lovely dog, but I really liked Elmo.


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

Ah, well done....any chance of RBiS?!


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

Elmo was definitely robbed not to get RBiS, he has the most glorious head!


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## MurphysMinder (13 March 2011)

See above CC, I hoped he might get reserve, definitely deserved it.


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

Next year  he did brilliantly to get that far, especially with all that palaver and misinformation in previous years, he has done wonders for the reputation for the breed and reversed a lot of (often unjustified) bad press


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

I thought it was going to be between Jet and Elmo, I was really surprised not to see them both up there. No accounting for taste!


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

Well given the bloodbath, I am surprised he didn't get chucked out the ring. I guess that's what happens when you have a status dog, people just don't mess with you


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## Maesfen (13 March 2011)

Really chuffed at the result, proper dogs for me.


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## numptynoelle (13 March 2011)

Another one here that thought it would be a Jet/Elmo combo (truly have been brainwashed) but I'd have happily stolen any of them 

Jet lives not that far from me actually..... *digs out camo gear*


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

numptynoelle said:



			Jet lives not that far from me actually..... *digs out camo gear* 

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*Makes mental note to visit NN, paint Otto black and make a covert swap*


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## numptynoelle (13 March 2011)

Heeheee...I can just imagine the thread that would ensue:

Dear AAD,

As you know, I've "procured" the Lovely Jet who is my bestest boy ever. However, since a visit from Kirstyhen yesterday, he just doesn't seem like himself...in fact I think he's turning white around the edges and he's now answering to "Snotbag" instead of Jet...he's also lost a few inches and is behaving rather...well, spanglefied. 

What could possibly be wrong?  Answers on a S.A.E please,

love NN


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

Ahahahahahaha - some bloke on my Mum's (former breeder, judge, interpreter, edited a breed magazine) Facebook has just posted about how all modern GSDs are deformed cripples and posted a pic of some wolfy/husky shaggy long haired thing as what he thinks a Shepherd should look like....let battle commence


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## Vizslak (13 March 2011)

Dead chuffed to see a gundog do it again  Hes far nicer than any flatcoats I have encountered..and Flora was cheering for him as the flatcoats out on the shoot are her best hunting buddies, shes totally besotted with them...and them her actually which is amazing as they try to eat everything else out    
I really liked the rBIS she was a total poppet and a real show girl. Was pleased with that result too.
I have to say though that Elmo is one of the loveliest GSD's I have ever seen, I really liked him and he is clearly very fit for function, lovely to see a proper sloppy backed cripple in the line up   I cant remember the name of the last GSD to make it into the line up but I really really didnt like that dog, Elmo just put the standard back up for UK show GSD's I reckon and showed them in the light they deserve.


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## kirstyhen (13 March 2011)

numptynoelle said:



			Heeheee...I can just imagine the thread that would ensue:

Dear AAD,

As you know, I've "procured" the Lovely Jet who is my bestest boy ever. However, since a visit from Kirstyhen yesterday, he just doesn't seem like himself...in fact I think he's turning white around the edges and he's now answering to "Snotbag" instead of Jet...he's also lost a few inches and is behaving rather...well, spanglefied. 

What could possibly be wrong?  Answers on a S.A.E please,

love NN 

Click to expand...

Nah, you wouldn't notice, Otto's as likely to answer to Jet as he is Otto/Snotbag


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## Cinnamontoast (13 March 2011)

It's the only dog Zak hasn't howled at all week! He particularly  liked flyball and agility. I hope he knows how to do both by now. He did an impressive weave through a row of saplings last week.


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## Maesfen (13 March 2011)

Slight change of subject but connected, but what was good about the alsation that you're raving about, it looked horrible to me with that sloping backend; do they not get back/hip problems looking like that?

Sorry, once an alsation always an alsation to me.


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

Well we're no longer at war with Germany and even the Kennel Club is dropping the name so there is no need to call them an Alsatian 

Elmo, the German Shepherd Dog, has A-normal hips and elbows(so free of hip and elbow dysplasia) 

KK1 - highest breed survey (conformation, character, working test) result

SchIII - so he has passed the highest level in obedience (including 1m hurdle and A-frame), tracking (500 pace track, three articles) and protection work (six hide blind search, full protection routine). I train with people whose dogs compete at this level and the work the handlers and dogs put in is immense. It can take up to four years to get a dog from pup to SchIII.

He has his AD, which is a 12km run off a bike.

He has also won three championship level best in show titles, all breeds.

So by calling him horrible, you're not just disrespecting the breeders, trainers and handlers who have put so much work into this dog, you are also disrespecting every working and show judge who has handed him a title, not just GSD judges, but all-breed judges too.

He is EVERYTHING a GSD should be and as someone who is out on a training field or at the ringside every weekend and see how hard people work with their GSDs to get them to the level Elmo is at, your comment has made me really sad


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## Spudlet (13 March 2011)

Elmo was a lovely, free-moving dog who looked totally fit for function to me, and I am not a great GSD aficionado - I just like a nice dog when I see one. He was unfazed by the big event and didn't look exaggerated to me.

And Alsation? Really?? That's like calling a yellow lab a 'golden' or a liver cocker spaniel a 'chocolate'


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## Cobsndogs (13 March 2011)

Elmo was robbed........Vegas couldn't believe it, he is so gutted he has taken himself to bed.


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## Dobiegirl (13 March 2011)

I know nothing of GSD but I thought this was a stunning dog who moved beautifully and certainly looked fit for purpose.

If it wasnt for their long coats I might be tempted


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## Maesfen (13 March 2011)

He sounds a mega dog but I can't help it if he's not my cup of tea can I?  
I appreciate he's got great credentials in his breed so must be something special to afficinados (spl) but I was brought up when they were alsations, it's stuck solid in my mind, nothing to do with the war at all, sorry if you don't approve and I did like the breed until they brought in that horrible slope which spoils it completely for me, it just doesn't look at all natural and unspoiled.
It's a good job we all like different breeds I think, I don't expect you to like my choices either but I appreciate your time for explaining his record to me.

BTW, he wasn't the only one I didn't like either, I'm not just taking it out on him but I know how hard they all worked to get there and appreciate their commitment and achievement to get in the last line up.


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2011)

No worries M. 
Rough Collies, aren't my cup of tea, in fact I violently dislike them, but other people like them so don't feel the need to call them horrible on an internet forum 

They were never Alsatian, their name in the country of origin is deutscher schaeferhund and Alsatian is just a silly name the Brits used during the war and it stuck.

It's not for me to approve or disprove your opinion, it just stung a bit, my dog is probably one you would call horrible, with a slope from his back to his croup sometimes when he stands, I and my friends, who have similar looking dogs had been out all day in the wind and the rain and the cold training and it is bloody hard work to get a dog to half the stage that Elmo is at.

Yes, the breed has changed, yes, there have been mistakes made and I appreciate my own dog is not an oil painting - but some of us are fighting and campaigning and banging our heads off the wall to bring back uniformity and to re-align the working and show sides of the breed (and sorry, the old English type 'Alsatian', heavy, tall, long, big boned, sway-backed, is far from correct either, far, far from it) and I and a lot of other people see Elmo as part of that process.

Right, bed!!!!


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## kickandshout (13 March 2011)

going slightly off topic . . . ooopss
was it just me but did the boxer look sound to you  ??
might've just been the pressure on the lead  ????


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## PucciNPoni (14 March 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Well we're no longer at war with Germany and even the Kennel Club is dropping the name so there is no need to call them an Alsatian 

Elmo, the German Shepherd Dog, has A-normal hips and elbows(so free of hip and elbow dysplasia) 

KK1 - highest breed survey (conformation, character, working test) result

SchIII - so he has passed the highest level in obedience (including 1m hurdle and A-frame), tracking (500 pace track, three articles) and protection work (six hide blind search, full protection routine). I train with people whose dogs compete at this level and the work the handlers and dogs put in is immense. It can take up to four years to get a dog from pup to SchIII.

He has his AD, which is a 12km run off a bike.

He has also won three championship level best in show titles, all breeds.

So by calling him horrible, you're not just disrespecting the breeders, trainers and handlers who have put so much work into this dog, you are also disrespecting every working and show judge who has handed him a title, not just GSD judges, but all-breed judges too.

He is EVERYTHING a GSD should be and as someone who is out on a training field or at the ringside every weekend and see how hard people work with their GSDs to get them to the level Elmo is at, your comment has made me really sad 

Click to expand...

Nice to see that a "show" dog is also well titled with credentials in othert aspects as well.  I know absolutely sod all about GSDs so couldn't say I would have necessarily picked him out of the line up.  To me the F/C had real WOW factor (even over the poodle which says a lot coming from me) so was really chuffed to see that dog take BIS.  I'm not even a gun dog "fan" as such.  I reckoned when I watched the line up it'd be the F/C then the Bichon.

However, I am incredibly impressed with the GSD's list of achievements, which makes him a rather special boy, doesn't it!


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## mon (14 March 2011)

how many of the working sheepogs have ever moved sheep and the show border collies would be useless to keep clean on a working stock farm. Us farmers have border collies and agility folk have working sheepdogs!


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## PucciNPoni (14 March 2011)

mon said:



			how many of the working sheepogs have ever moved sheep and the show border collies would be useless to keep clean on a working stock farm. Us farmers have border collies and agility folk have working sheepdogs!
		
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Well, that's kind of my point.   You don't often see something that is that successful in the show ring that can actually WORK, too! 

You maybe see that in some terriers I would guess (I don't think there's a distinct type difference in border terriers, for example).  I wouldn't like to try to work a show westie though!  LOL

There's a woman that I know that keeps her standard poodles in show trim (she dabbles in showing still I think) but attends a weekly agility club.  I really like to see this.  If she was serious about either she'd probably have to make a choice, clip the coat short for less wind resistence  or not be hooning thru a sandy arena in show coat.  But she does enjoy her dogs and I reckon that her dogs really enjoy the time she spends with them.  win win if you ask me, regardless of whether she "wins" or not.


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## mon (14 March 2011)

the international sheepdog society motto is 'brains before beauty' my collies may be beautiful in my eyes but earn thier keep working sheep, but i suppose same can be said for most show animals inc horses, how many hunters hunt?


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## PucciNPoni (14 March 2011)

couldn't answer the bit about how many hunters hunt?  Though I do know of a pricey show welsh cob gelding that was pictured in HH hunting not long before a girl on my yard bought it.  So it does happen, yes. 

I had read somewhere that BTs, if injured in the line of duty (eg, an ear damaged by a fox perhaps) that while being judged that injured area shall be judged as perfect?  I may have misinterpreted, but I think the point was to encourage the breeders of these dogs to NOT just show tehm, but that they should do the job in which they were bred to do.


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## Amymay (14 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Slight change of subject but connected, but what was good about the alsation that you're raving about, it looked horrible to me with that sloping backend; do they not get back/hip problems looking like that?
		
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I have to say I agree - I thought he looked awful actually.  Terrible 'hunch' in his spine, and hocks far too close to the ground.  

Loved the Bichon (suprise, suprise) and thought the boxer was just stunning.

An interesting result.


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## Amymay (14 March 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			So by calling him horrible, you're not just disrespecting the breeders, trainers and handlers who have put so much work into this dog, you are also disrespecting every working and show judge who has handed him a title, not just GSD judges, but all-breed judges too.
		
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Not really, though, CC.  That's like saying we have to respect the type of breeding that has produced spaniels with skulls to small for their brains.  Dalmations with faulty (in fact missing) gene's for liver function.  Breathing problems in pugs - well the list goes on.  

The breed 'standard' in some dogs has been so damaging to many of them.

The emphasis has to be on health - and whilst Elmo was a staggeringly handsome dog, I did think that there was something very 'manufactured' about him.  His hind leg action was odd to say the least - and whilst he may be held up to be the epitome of great breeding in the GSD - it's not a standard I would ever look to purchase.  And as you know I simply adore the breed.


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## MurphysMinder (14 March 2011)

Maesfen, I was brought up with Alsatians (there was never such a thing as an Alsation, thats just a spelling mistake) as my mum bred them when they were Alsatians.   She campaigned with many others to revert the name to the correct GSD, and she was thrilled when the KC accepted GSD (Alsatian) and would I know have been even more delighted that the Alsatian bit has at last being dropped.  
I think I can talk with the benefit of experience of the old fashioned Alsatian, which most others haven't had, and believe me although I loved the dogs we had then dearly, they did not have the working ability that the dogs nowadays do, and certainly weren't as fit as a breed, and there were huge problems with hips, and with temperament.  They were far more of a couch potato than a working dog.  My mum had one of the top dogs of the day, he had many wins including BOB at Crufts, unlike many he did have good hips and a good temperament, but he was a great slob of a dog, certainly wouldn't have got his backside into gear to either chase criminals or herd sheep.
I think it is harsh to call Elmo horrible, there have been pictures of breeds on AAD that have not been my copy of tea but I would never call them horrible, they are somebody's much loved pet after all.  I may be looking with a biased eye but I honestly can't see a hunch in his spine, to me that is something whippets have , his hind leg action was as it should be, driving through the hocks, yes it may have looked different to some of the other breeds, but that is how they are meant to move.  It is like comparing a hackney to a daisy cutting show pony, you jsut can't do it.
You are correct Amy May the breed standard has been damaging to many dogs, or more to the point peoples interpretation of it, and GSDs are amongst that, but the breeders have been foremost in trying to improve things, way before the KC deemed it was necessary.


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## Amymay (14 March 2011)

I think it is harsh to call Elmo horrible, there have been pictures of breeds on AAD that have not been my copy of tea but I would never call them horrible, they are somebody's much loved pet after all.
		
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Not Elmo _personally_ - but his stamp.....


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## Zoisrus (14 March 2011)

PucciNPoni said:



			Well, that's kind of my point.   You don't often see something that is that successful in the show ring that can actually WORK, too! 

.
		
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Maybe not in the UK but abroad it is desirable to have both show and field titles on a dog in many breeds.  The BOB at the World Show last year in Borzoi also works in the field in Russia.  There are many borzoi in Europe, Scandinavia and the USA who are multi Ch's in show, lure coursing, open field coursing, and track racing.


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## MurphysMinder (14 March 2011)

amymay said:



			Not Elmo _personally_ - but his stamp.....
		
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Maesfen was I am pretty sure referring to Elmo when she said "it looked horrible to me" .  Not going to fall out with anyone here about it, but just pointing out that it was a harsh thing to say imo.


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## Maesfen (14 March 2011)

amymay said:



			Not Elmo _personally_ - but his stamp.....
		
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That's what I should have said before, it wasn't personal to him but the breed as a whole.

MM: Interestingly, was talking to both a neighbour and the lad that works for us this morning, they both asked if we saw Crufts, said only parts of it and before I could say anything more, they both said they were glad the FC and the bitch had won because they both looked totally natural and unspoilt, unlike - in their own words - those poncy poodles and that white thing!  Neither had liked the Alsatian because of the back-end, it looked wrong to them.  Yes, they both called it an Alsatian, no prompting from me at all so it's not only me being difficult, perhaps we're a backward area around here.  
Heck, I still automatically convert back to shillings and pence even after all this time of decimalisation, what hope is there for me to remember to call them GSDs but I'm sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn't meant that way.


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## PucciNPoni (14 March 2011)

Zoisrus said:



			Maybe not in the UK but abroad it is desirable to have both show and field titles on a dog in many breeds.  The BOB at the World Show last year in Borzoi also works in the field in Russia.  There are many borzoi in Europe, Scandinavia and the USA who are multi Ch's in show, lure coursing, open field coursing, and track racing.
		
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To be fair, I spoke as if I know SCORES of show dogs...but I don't.  So maybe in the Uk there are lots of dogs that are dual champions (or indeed just dual talented  ).  I know *some* show dogs and people who show them.  But most of the ones I know tend to be people with toy breeds and/or poodles/bichon.   Most of the gun dog people don't work their show retrievers and spaniels.  Perhaps there are many who do.  I do like the fact that form and function can go hand in hand, and not just for the scruffier little border terrier....  

My own poodle is more a "working" type tee hee   but thinks he's a show dog (and was bred from show lines) .  Confused boy


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## Tillypup (14 March 2011)

PucciNPoni said:



			To be fair, I spoke as if I know SCORES of show dogs...but I don't.  So maybe in the Uk there are lots of dogs that are dual champions (or indeed just dual talented  ).  I know *some* show dogs and people who show them.  But most of the ones I know tend to be people with toy breeds and/or poodles/bichon.   Most of the gun dog people don't work their show retrievers and spaniels.  Perhaps there are many who do.  I do like the fact that form and function can go hand in hand, and not just for the scruffier little border terrier....  

My own poodle is more a "working" type tee hee   but thinks he's a show dog (and was bred from show lines) .  Confused boy 

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I was chatting with some friends at Crufts on Saturday and we have both noticed a decided increase in ponter show folk showing more of an interest in the working side which I think is wonderful. Recently the Kennel Club has been organising training days and they have always been well attended. My husband will be entering one of our dogs in their first field trial next month, crikey! He will also be trialling our young bitch (that was at Crufts on Thursday) in the Summer!! Double crikey!!!!

I'm hoping that we will have our first litter next year and the sire that I am likely to use (unless I find something else out there that I prefer which is doubtful) has 2 CCs, his SGWC and will be trialling this year, so all in all a good looking talented boy!! Added to this he has the most wonderful temperament in the world.

I just loved the FC, he's super, especially for 9, clearly loved his time in the ring as well!! I also adored the PBGV, but then they have always been a favourite of mine, I loved her attitude on the move!! I did laugh at the commentators as the judge was going over the GSD, what were they expecting the dog to do, leap up and savage the judge?!?! I'm not a particular fan of the way GSD's are moved, normally on that long long lead, but, for me, as he went around the ring he was a bit too "strung up" (one extreme to another) which I think afftects the movement, as strung up big dogs always look to me as if they are leaning away from the lead. Then again, it is always different when you are in the ring judging yourself!


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## PucciNPoni (14 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			they both said they were glad the FC and the bitch had won because they both looked totally natural and unspoilt, unlike - in their own words - those poncy poodles and that white thing! 

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Oh damn, now me AND my poodle are insulted at that!  Poncy indeed. Well....mine kinda is - and he's got a real thing for pink things.  But hey, I'd still put my money on him in a fight if I allowed him to or if i was a bettin person....


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## Maesfen (14 March 2011)

PucciNPoni said:



			Oh damn, now me AND my poodle are insulted at that!  Poncy indeed. Well....mine kinda is - and he's got a real thing for pink things.  But hey, I'd still put my money on him in a fight if I allowed him to or if i was a bettin person....
		
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For once, they weren't my words so don't blame me but I have to agree that the cuts they use do nothing for them at all, it detracts from what nice dogs they are.  Used to work somewhere that had three poodles (middle size!) and they were the most fantastic characters that loved hunting and ratting; I got very good at doing a lamb clip!   I have a lot of time for the breed as a whole but not the styles they have to endure in the show ring.  Just where is the point of them, it doesn't make them at all attractive, just glorified dolls and I think it's a bit degrading for them TBH; after all, no dog likes to be laughed at - or referred to as ponces!


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## MurphysMinder (14 March 2011)

You're certainly not alone in calling them Alsatians Maesfen, although I am glad to say more and more people nowadays are saying GSD.  It used to be that a lot of people thought German shepherds were the long coats and Alsatians the normal coats, I have had no end of "experts" telling me that mine are Alsatians.
My son was very rude about the standard poodle, till I pointed out that they could actually be cracking working dogs, and have great brains, as said the poncey show cuts don't do them any favours.  
Tillypup, I am sure Steve was handling the GSD like that because when GSDs are allowed to move on ahead on a long lead as they do at breed shows they are criciticised by people in other breeds and all rounder judges, they really can't win.  I did notice as he left the ring he was moving out at the end of the lead as he normally would.  I think the commentators were desperately trying to get brownie points from  GSD people after the slagging off the GSD got last year.
Good luck with your field trials this year, the more dual purpose dogs in all breeds the better.


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## PucciNPoni (14 March 2011)

If you really are wondering about the point of poodle haircuts:   Historically poodles were working dogs.  They were used for retrieving (at least the standards anyway).   The style of trim (lion/continental trim) was developed for a specific reason - to keep vital organs and joints warm.  The shaved areas were shaved to reduce the amount of drag in the water.  The top knot used to be marked with a color ribbon and each dog handler would recognise his own dog by the color of ribbon from a distance.

Personally, I prefer the puppy pants style over continental trimming....

And most poodles think so much of themselves they really don't *care* what others think because they know that they are above such mockery


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## MurphysMinder (14 March 2011)

I did know about the point of the trims to keep joints warm etc, but do think like so many things in dog showing they have now gone totally over the top.


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## EAST KENT (14 March 2011)

Alsatian/GSD ,whatever ..this one appeared a bit more normal dog shape than last years "frog dog"..who also has a myriad of work achievements I was told. But can it be a good thing for Elmo to have a hump in the middle of his back line and a down slope thereafter to his tail? And ,if they normally steam out in front on a long lead ..how do they steer the dog ?? Wierd.


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## Amymay (14 March 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			But can it be a good thing for Elmo to have a hump in the middle of his back line and a down slope thereafter to his tail?
		
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Thank goodness someone else saw the same as me


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## mollichop (14 March 2011)

Not to compare canine conformation with equine, but I do think MM made a good point about the difference in movement of a show pony 'daisy cutting' and a Hackneys high carriage. Fans of one may not appreciate the movement or conformation of the other.

Was over the moon for the Flatcoat, was the first time i've watched Crufts and lets just say i'm glad I only had the dogs in the room with me as I was a soggy mess


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## MurphysMinder (14 March 2011)

I think maybe what people are seeing is the slope of the croup which is how it is supposed to be, I honestly cannot see a "hump" myself.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...a=X&ei=Ehd-TYqiAYebhQeDmJzjBg&ved=0CDEQ9QEwAA

The breed standard says  ". The topline runs without any visible break from the set on of the neck, over the well defined withers, falling away slightly in a straight line to the gently sloping croup"
As to how they steer the dog on the end of a long lead, they don't steer it, it is trained to move on ahead around the ring.  At breed speciality shows there is sometimes an inner ring marked out but not always.  If a dog can be taught all the disciplines in schutzhund or working trials it isn't to difficult for them to learn to run round a ring.


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## Vizslak (14 March 2011)

*cough cough* I think the topline of that dog is photoshopped in that picture MM  quick choose another!


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## Amymay (14 March 2011)

". The topline runs without any visible break from the set on of the neck, over the well defined withers, falling away slightly in a straight line to the gently sloping croup"
		
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This wasn't exhibted on Elmo.  He had a definate hump back.


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## PucciNPoni (14 March 2011)

MurphysMinder said:



			I did know about the point of the trims to keep joints warm etc, but do think like so many things in dog showing they have now gone totally over the top.
		
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Yes, styles change and in the show ring things can be exaggerated.  Show poodles tend to be so *big* with the hair...but IMO I think it looks more balanced to the dog IF DONE CORRECTLY (whereas it used to be a bit lumpy looking).   

My own boy is in a stylised version of a very cut down show trim...my husband hates it but I find the beauty of a poodle is that you can style and restyle at whim.  No, that doesn't make them glorified barbie dogs, it makes them useful (to me)...hence utility


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## bryngelenponies (14 March 2011)

Whether Elmo had a hump or a 'slope', either way I think it's unhealthy. I agree that he was a slight improvement to the GSD from last year but I don't believe that any breed should have that degree of slope.
ETA: I'm not trying to start any debate over the subject, just my opinion. Also I was delighted that the Flatcoat won- he was such a happy person and at his age it was fantastic!


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## MurphysMinder (14 March 2011)

Really, was just the first that came up on google, and as it was taken by the foremost GSD photograper thought it would do.  No doubt people will now find lots of him with a hump in his back but can't be bothered anymore, going to take my cripple out now, and just accept that sadly some people are not prepared to share the view of so many GSD and all breed specialists that Elmo is a lovely dog.


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## CorvusCorax (14 March 2011)

Right, we're going around in circles yet again.
Elmo is correct according to the current FCI (WORLD) GSD standard.
Just because people don't personally like the shape of him, doesn't mean he is a cripple or deformed, doesn't mean he is not correct, doesn't mean he is not fit for purpose, and doesn't mean they know any better than international judges, both GSD and all-rounders, who have consistently placed him at the top of the line or the working judges who watched him drag himself over obstacles and feebly take down a decoy.

But what the hell do they, or I, or Murphy's Minder know. We're never going to change your minds.

Go pat or play with your own dogs and be thankful that no one is slagging them off and calling them horrible names over the internet and think of me when I am out in the dark tonight training my slopey cripple.

A lady I know and her showline dog won their class at Crufts, you'd probably call him a frog or humpy too, I read every day how she is out training and working so, SO hard to get this dog his working qualifications, I hope you could say these things to her face.


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## bryngelenponies (14 March 2011)

Elmo may well be a lovely dog in terms of the breed standard, but that doesn't make in alright in my mind that he has such an exaggerated slope. There's no doubt that he was a handsome boy- I loved his face, colouring and he looked like he had a great temperament but his back was not right to me. I'm going to skulk back off now


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## Amymay (14 March 2011)

Just because people don't personally like the shape of him, doesn't mean he is a cripple or deformed
		
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CC no one has said that.

I think you're taking this far too personally.  As a breed standard one or two of us have said - 'nope, not for us'.

There are some really beautiful GSD's out there.  I've been lucky enough to have two in my life vicariously.  Neither were stamped as Elmo was, yet were from excellent breeders.  Their shape, overall, is one I prefer - that's all.


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## CorvusCorax (14 March 2011)

Yes, I am taking it personally and I am fed up with it now. I have never seen any other breed take the hammering that GSDs take on here,

Go pick on another breed people, I see lots of dead lame dogs and am told it's 'just one of those things'.

When you're out there trying to make a difference and change things, to promote the correct type of dog, working really bloody hard with your own dog, yeah, it does hurt.


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## Maesfen (14 March 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Right, we're going around in circles yet again.
Elmo is correct according to the current FCI (WORLD) GSD standard.
Just because people don't personally like the shape of him, doesn't mean he is a cripple or deformed, doesn't mean he is not correct, doesn't mean he is not fit for purpose, and doesn't mean they know any better than international judges, both GSD and all-rounders, who have consistently placed him at the top of the line or the working judges who watched him drag himself over obstacles and feebly take down a decoy.

But what the hell do they, or I, or Murphy's Minder know. We're never going to change your minds.

Go pat or play with your own dogs and be thankful that no one is slagging them off and calling them horrible names over the internet and think of me when I am out in the dark tonight training my slopey cripple.

A lady I know and her showline dog won their class at Crufts, you'd probably call him a frog or humpy too, I read every day how she is out training and working so, SO hard to get this dog his working qualifications, I hope you could say these things to her face.
		
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Nobody is disputing how hard you and your friend work with your dogs but remember, that is your choice, nobody is forcing you to do it which is how you're making it sound on here but I admire your dedication, don't think I don't.  

There's no point getting in a state because we don't like the GSDs of today or rather their exaggerated shape and note I'm not the only one to have said so; I'm well aware you wouldn't like my breeds either but it doesn't worry me if you and many others say so; you know what you like and why, I know what I like and why but I wouldn't dream of being stroppy about your views on my dogs; I know and love my dogs for who they are, other opinions don't mean a jot to me, you can be as rude as you like because, like you to me or me to you, the only opinions that count about our own dogs, are our own, no point whatsoever for getting upset about others likes and dislikes.

Pucci-Pony, thanks for that explanation of the clips, that does make sense of a sort; it would help if it were more generally known I think and then you might not get the 'poncy' remarks quite so much!    It's just a great shame they are so exaggerated in the show ring as it really does detract from what well built dogs they usually are.


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## Amymay (14 March 2011)

Yes, I am taking it personally and I am fed up with it now. I have never seen any other breed take the hammering that GSDs take on here
		
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The breed is not taking a hammering.  Again, those of us who are critising Elmo are saying how much we like the breed - just (again) not the _stamp_ that Elmo is.  I.e such a far cry from the original breed standard - which I, and others, seem to prefer.

You want to pick on another breed??  How about the Pekingese.  WTF was and _is_ that all about?????????


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## PucciNPoni (14 March 2011)

It would be interesting to know whether or not there are any statistics regarding soundness (long term) in GSDs that are built one way or the other.  I would imagine that the hip scores would be a start?  I think that if there is good evidence that dogs which have more of a sloping topline are proven to stay sound long term (even thru years of service and work) that would put rest to this whole conversation?  

I am not bashing the type (either type).  I feel somewhat aggrieved to have to defend poodle haircuts  so wouldn't like make someone feel that way....I have also been in the hot seat defending breeds of horses and their natural way of going (some think that Morgans/Saddlebreds/Hackneys are just freaks and how dare people breed them to go this way...).  But I have had Morgans that were naturally gifted and never took a lame step in all their lives (with or without with heavier shoes than your ordinary hunter plate).  

CC and MM, I have learned so much about GSDs from you both.  I have always admired the breed from a distance and have come in to contact with them thru work.  My brother had an ex-police dog that just didn't make the grade - and he was a fab dog.


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## Spudlet (14 March 2011)

I get the feeling that much of the 'GSDs are horrible and crippled' feeling is of the same school as much anti-hunting sentiment. It's not that people know the facts, they just don't like the look or sound of something.


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## Maesfen (14 March 2011)

amymay said:



			The breed is not taking a hammering.  Again, those of us who are critising Elmo are saying how much we like the breed - just (again) not the _stamp_ that Elmo is.  I.e such a far cry from the original breed standard - which I, and others, seem to prefer.

You want to pick on another breed??  How about the Pekingese.  WTF was and _is_ that all about?????????
		
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Lol, you know what would be an eye opener is if everything, every breed, had to be clipped out; then you'd see the body shapes and know which type you like better. 

Pekes are funny little dogs, some can be very nice others want to rip your throats out especially when you're grooming them!  Clip them out and let them play and they're great but each day, those with coats can get in a real mess; always seems unfair to be forever untangling.


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## PucciNPoni (14 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Pucci-Pony, thanks for that explanation of the clips, that does make sense of a sort; it would help if it were more generally known I think and then you might not get the 'poncy' remarks quite so much!    It's just a great shame they are so exaggerated in the show ring as it really does detract from what well built dogs they usually are.
		
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Trust me when I say there are plenty of poodle trims out there that have NO basis for functionality...but you don't see those ones in the show ring.    However, lion trim will stay in the show ring I reckon because it is indeed traditional for a reason.

Good news for you poodle fans (though the ones that don't like the hair-styles) more and more shows are hosting pet-clip classes or allowing those styled in pet clips to show alongside those in more tradtional trims.


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## Amymay (14 March 2011)

Spudlet said:



			I get the feeling that much of the 'GSDs are horrible and crippled' feeling is of the same school as much anti-hunting sentiment. It's not that people know the facts, they just don't like the look or sound of something.

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I suggest you read this post again.  Or at least refer to the same one as the rest of us..................


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## Tillypup (14 March 2011)

Doesn't the GSD way of being shown, well, the way they are stood at least, exagerate the sloping topline? I've not really seen too many GSD's stood four square but I bet their toplines don't look like that when they do? I just don't really "get" the way the GSD is shown so I think that doesn't help in my appreciation of them I'm afraid!

Anyway, I'm not going to have a dig about anyone particular dog or breed as I'm sure there will be lunatics around somewhere that think pointers are ugly or unsound or unhealthy!! Like the Dalmation people tried to claim when the LUA Dalmation was brought over from the States and registered with the Kennel Club!


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## Amymay (14 March 2011)

Tillypup said:



			Like the Dalmation people tried to claim when the LUA Dalmation was brought over from the States and registered with the Kennel Club!
		
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But that was done to improve the health of the Dalmation, and replace a faulty gene.  So this was about health, not what it looked like.  Which _has_ to be a good thing.  Trouble with breeding (of any type and any animal) is that you get traditionalists whose very traditions can seriously compromise the welfare of the animal they are breeding......


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## Tillypup (14 March 2011)

amymay said:



			But that was done to improve the health of the Dalmation, and replace a faulty gene.  So this was about health, not what it looked like.  Which _has_ to be a good thing.  Trouble with breeding (of any type and any animal) is that you get traditionalists whose very traditions can seriously compromise the welfare of the animal they are breeding......
		
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Didn't stop an awful lot of Dalmation breeders bemoaning the fact that the KC had allowed the registration of the dog and that it could potentially introduce a whole raft of other health "issues" from Pointers into Dalmations, although I have never seen these issues actually defined. I've seen a pic of the Dal in question, looks like a Dal to me and it was, I believe competing at Crufts this year.


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## bryngelenponies (14 March 2011)

Spudlet- I disagree that I've based my judgement on no information. I personally prefer the original stamp of the GSD. I'm all for them having a slightly sloping topline, say for example that the Boxer has but the topline that the GSD has is far too exaggerated for my liking. 
I'm not picking on GSDs in particular, there are other breeds that have too much exaggeration and standards that in eyes do not produce a 'fit for function' dog.


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## Tiny Fluffy Coblet (14 March 2011)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/07/12/cock-a-poodle-do-115875-21512995/

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/jul2009/6/1/image-2-for-cindy-the-ever-changing-poodle-gallery-56803405.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/07/12/cock-a-poodle-do-115875-21512995/&usg=__5HIh2iixB25zxDbxfLlJ8UUolMs=&h=345&w=450&sz=65&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=kPm9XqL6RnTIKM:&tbnh=147&tbnw=197&ei=xzx-Ta7UGsqwhQfV_oXrBg&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpoodle%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3De7%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GBfficial%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D834%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C228&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=147&vpy=247&dur=268&hovh=151&hovw=197&tx=110&ty=52&oei=xzx-Ta7UGsqwhQfV_oXrBg&page=1&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:0&biw=1280&bih=834

Poodle cuts anyone? (please excuse the long URL I thought the pic was funny enough to be worth it )

As to GSD's I have looked Elmo up and though he is not my favorite type I think that the practical achievements, temperement references and hip and elbow scores speak for themselves - The dog is by no means a cripple or horrible. He is a healthy, fit, working capable dog. I am not personaly too keen on pekes, wippets or dachshunds but as long as they are well tempered, sound dogs why on earth would I have a right to call them 'horrible'?. Not my cup of tea but someone elses.


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## Tiny Fluffy Coblet (14 March 2011)

please excuse the double post but WOW

http://allthecreatures.org/dog/crazy-poodle-clips.html

Poor poodles....


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## tweedette (14 March 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Well we're no longer at war with Germany and even the Kennel Club is dropping the name so there is no need to call them an Alsatian 

Elmo, the German Shepherd Dog, has A-normal hips and elbows(so free of hip and elbow dysplasia) 

KK1 - highest breed survey (conformation, character, working test) result

SchIII - so he has passed the highest level in obedience (including 1m hurdle and A-frame), tracking (500 pace track, three articles) and protection work (six hide blind search, full protection routine). I train with people whose dogs compete at this level and the work the handlers and dogs put in is immense. It can take up to four years to get a dog from pup to SchIII.

He has his AD, which is a 12km run off a bike.

He has also won three championship level best in show titles, all breeds.

So by calling him horrible, you're not just disrespecting the breeders, trainers and handlers who have put so much work into this dog, you are also disrespecting every working and show judge who has handed him a title, not just GSD judges, but all-breed judges too.

He is EVERYTHING a GSD should be and as someone who is out on a training field or at the ringside every weekend and see how hard people work with their GSDs to get them to the level Elmo is at, your comment has made me really sad 

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WOW! impressive, would have loved to have seen the dog in the flesh , the camera did him no favours, but there is no getting away from the above, what a record.


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## PucciNPoni (14 March 2011)

Re the poodle clips - the creative ones are certainly not everyone's cuppa tea.  However, if you've never owned a poodle or ever attempted a creative design on a poodle, don't dismiss it as "poor dog" because I can assure you the dogs that are used for this creative type grooming will be of a temperament that absolutely loves the attention.  You'd not use a nervous dog for something like this (groomers don't do it just to get their sadistic kicks at being cruel to an animal).  Poodles tend to LOVE being with their owners and love the attention being lavished upon them.  

In terms of pointless poodle clips, I was thinking more of the Dutch clip or the Town and Country....or Bikini clip....

Re the camera not being kind to Elmo...

I actually got that impression from many of the dogs I saw on the green mat.  I wasn't hugely impressed with the way many went - and I reckon lights, cameras and huge atmosphere really took its toll on some of the less experienced dogs - and maybe even some of the well experienced ones.  

I felt bad for the wee girl in the Friends for Life bit who's dog barked and ran away and hid from the camera when it tried to zoom in on them.  She must have been nervous, and being autistic as I think they said, it was probably rather hard for her to go out on her own with her dog in front of all those folks and the camera...only to have your dog do a bunk.  But I think her response to the dog was really really sweet.

Yes, change of subject


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## EAST KENT (14 March 2011)

Elmo does indeed have wonderful credts,as did last year`s GSD, BUT if the breed standard states a gentle straight  but sloping line..sorry but to me that is not the case here. There is no doubt that too much exaggeration
 has come in ,as in many breeds,and it does need addressing. No good spitting over it ! In my own breed heads are rapidly approaching a Border Leicester sheep in profile,and that is`nt what our bull terrier standard describes either.The result for bullies is narrow underjaws and instanding lower canines that go into the top palette, but our judges do penalise this fault. All breeds have "virtues" that become overdone ,as long as the breed fans accept this then it can be addressed;fact is that the early GSD looked like a chunky Malinois,personally I would have preferred it to stay that way.


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## Tinkerbee (14 March 2011)

Pfft, CC you defending those slopey back cripples again?


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## gina2201 (14 March 2011)

We went on Friday, mainly to see the Bernese and compare how our puppy compares! 

Good day, but a long one as we drove up from Plymouth that morning but I did make the good decision of staying over!

Who knows - may be there with my own dog to show next year!


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## kirstyhen (14 March 2011)

The way I think of the sloping topline is, when we ask horses to work from behind we ask them to lower their quarters in order to lighten the front end and drive with the hindlegs. GSDs are rear wheel drive and therefore constantly have the lowered quarters to make the front end lift and allow the hind legs to drive. This means they can ramapage all over the countryside for days terrorising small children and OAPs (Or alternatively, herd sheep all day long). 
To me, that makes sense, the fact that the dog then has exemplary qualifications and health scores suggests that it can't be that detremental to the dog.

Plus when you get bored you can race marbles down their spines 

I'm just glad the docking debate isn't raging, or I'd have to post Otto's tail pictures again


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## MurphysMinder (14 March 2011)

Ooh who's been listening to CC then! 

I am happy to bring up the docking debate again if Otto wants the publicity.


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## kirstyhen (14 March 2011)

Do I get a star for being a Girly Swot? 

Otto doesn't mind remainin in obscurity if it means he doesn't have to put up with a wound up me


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## MurphysMinder (14 March 2011)

Definitely a gold star.  I think Evie quite likes me being wound up, we went a nice long walk this afternoon to help lower my blood pressure.


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## CorvusCorax (14 March 2011)

Sorry if people think I am spitting, stroppy or rude, it was not my intention, my right eyeball is still twitching a little but I did feel a bit better after eating something 
Comes from the 80 mile round trip for work and then training/exercising the cripple on either side of it, perhaps.

EK, of course there has been over-exaggeration, does this dog really deserve such a bashing? 
http://crufts.fossedata.co.uk/Breed.asp?ShowYear=2011&GroupID=PAS&ScheduleID=71

And this?
http://crufts.fossedata.co.uk/Breed.asp?ShowYear=2010&GroupID=PAS&ScheduleID=38

I do agree with you, I prefer a less exaggerated dog and I do hover more towards the working side these days, but I do have to remember where I came from and look towards where I want to go - back to the future so to speak, where there is no 'show type' and no 'working type' - as I say, Elmo is part of that process and part of where I want the breed to be heading and slagging him off as deformed and hump-backed (yes, people ARE saying that, all over AAD) isn't helping those people who are trying to improve things.
Maybe people should be supporting them instead.


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## kirstyhen (14 March 2011)

Oi, CC, where's my gold star


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## EAST KENT (14 March 2011)

Pics standing still look ok CC..but on the move..oh dear.Hold a top line..don`t think so in their wildest dreams ,up the Mali!


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## CorvusCorax (14 March 2011)

Do you want it on your backside?


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## CorvusCorax (14 March 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Pics standing still look ok CC..but on the move..oh dear.Hold a top line..don`t think so in their wildest dreams ,up the Mali!
		
Click to expand...

Nah, it's alright, I like a dog who doesn't keep attaching itself to people's faces


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## kirstyhen (14 March 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Do you want it on your backside?  

Click to expand...

Despite having A Normal hips, I do have a tender backside  So I would like it on my wall chart. Mummy says if I get 10 gold stars I can get a puppy and I have my eye on a pedigree Golden Sproodledoodlewhatsit


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## Tillypup (14 March 2011)

On a lighter note, as I was walking the dogs this evening I had a little dolly day dream about winning Best in Show at Crufts myself (well handling a dog obviously!!) anyway, I got a little bit emotional just at the thought of it!!!

Oooh, maybe one day I'll be there in the big ring!!! Well, I can dream can't I!!


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## kirstyhen (14 March 2011)

What could be lighter than my tender backside?? (Obviously not in reality, my backside is fairly hefty!)


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## MurphysMinder (14 March 2011)

Hold on to your dream Tillypup, and with a dual purpose dog, magic!

I have been in the big ring (agility final) in the days when Crufts was at Earls Court.  Unfortunately I was suffering from terrible morning (all day) sickness and my lasting memory is of trying very hard not to throw up until we had finished our round and I could run to the loo.


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## Vizslak (14 March 2011)

You and me both Tillypup....one day...of course not in the same year as you as we both have gundogs


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