# To Patey or not to Patey



## C&C (6 December 2012)

That is the question? 

Was thinking of buying one for hunting (yes i know the price) - someone told me i was mad! Said i should wear a harnessed hat.

What do you wear?


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## Rowreach (6 December 2012)

I value my head too much.


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## arizonahoney (6 December 2012)

On your own head be it


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## Baggybreeches (6 December 2012)

Pateys look lovely for standing still on your own two feet, but I honestly can't understand why anyone would be so vain to buy one for hunting in?
Get one if you desperately want one, but please keep it for unmounted prize givings only


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## mastermax (6 December 2012)

Sorry, but totally agree with the above. Seen a lovely sequence of photos of a gentleman who fell at a hedge and the Patey did a "Barnes Wallace" long before he hit the ground!!. Yes, they look stylish and great but we only have one head, abuse it and lose it.


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## Drakerath (6 December 2012)

They are for old-fashioned, thick people.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (6 December 2012)

Drakerath said:



			They are for old-fashioned, thick people.
		
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I take exception to that comment! 





I am old fashioned & maybe thick (specially around the middle ) but my Patey was long consigned to the 'hall of memories' after being used as an in-hand only hat for a number of years. Stopped hunting in one back in the 80's.


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## C&C (6 December 2012)

I will get a harnessed one


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## Ditchjumper2 (6 December 2012)

....sorry I wear one....creeps off and hides.......


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## cptrayes (6 December 2012)

They look great on stupid people.  No-one who isn't stupid wears one. Why risk your brains in the name of fashion. It's rubbish that they don't come off if they fit right. Our huntsman's came off over a fence when he stayed in the saddle. Only worn by people with more concern for how other people view them than their own safety. You may as well wear nothing.

Did I say I hunt in a full skull cap  ?


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## Dunlin (6 December 2012)

For an extra £20 you can get the Patey with a flesh coloured harness.


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## cptrayes (6 December 2012)

Dunlin said:



			For an extra £20 you can get the Patey with a flesh coloured harness.
		
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For £100 less you can get a velvet hat with a flesh coloured harness to the same safety spec


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## spacefaer (6 December 2012)

You're always going to get jumped on here for suggesting wearing anything other than full body armour (not so bad in Hunting, awful in NL where people advocate hacking in their air jackets)

I hunt in my Patey, hack in my crash hat. I've had way worse falls eventing, hacking and schooling than I ever have hunting.

It's my choice, I will get abuse for choosing it.

And the more I am lectured by strangers about it, the more stubborn I get


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## meandmyself (6 December 2012)

I think it's very selfish not to wear a proper helmet. If you come off, land on your head and end up in a coma, what happens to your family/friends/horse/job/whatever?

Get a smart velvet helmet instead.


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## cptrayes (6 December 2012)

spacefaer said:



			You're always going to get jumped on here for suggesting wearing anything other than full body armour (not so bad in Hunting, awful in NL where people advocate hacking in their air jackets)

I hunt in my Patey, hack in my crash hat. I've had way worse falls eventing, hacking and schooling than I ever have hunting.

It's my choice, I will get abuse for choosing it.

And the more I am lectured by strangers about it, the more stubborn I get  

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You didn't ask though, Spacefaer, so I won't pass any judgement on your adult choice to do as you wish. No problem.

But the OP asked  !!


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## spacefaer (6 December 2012)

Fair point cptrayes - just thought I'd give the opposing viewpoint 

(Need to ask you about calmag sometime too)


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## Hunters (7 December 2012)

I wear my Patey - have had any number of falls & it has never come off. 

I have however seen riders get their hats with harnesses get caught in low branches. 

It's all about personal choice. Horses for courses etc.


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## jrp204 (7 December 2012)

Or put it another way, 'brain injury or not brain injury', guess that gives my opinion.


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## JenHunt (7 December 2012)

Proper hat all the time. As others have said, a patey is fine of you're on your feet, but not mounted. 

And if your hat harness is lose enough to get caught on branches it needs refitting!


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## FairyLights (7 December 2012)

Go for a jockey skull instead. Much safer IMO


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## Drakerath (7 December 2012)

spacefaer said:



			You're always going to get jumped on here for suggesting wearing anything other than full body armour (not so bad in Hunting, awful in NL where people advocate hacking in their air jackets)

I hunt in my Patey, hack in my crash hat. I've had way worse falls eventing, hacking and schooling than I ever have hunting.

It's my choice, I will get abuse for choosing it.

And the more I am lectured by strangers about it, the more stubborn I get  

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As I said before, hunting (which typically involves jumping large fences in unpredictable conditions where falls are commonplace) and electing to wear little more than a velvet covered eggshell is for old-fashioned, thick people.

Engage the brain and look at the situation with common sense. Risk of falling is high. Risk of injury is high. Why would you not want to protect your head with the safest hat known to man? Seriously! Is it you just want to look the part? Are you so insecure that you think other hunting folk won't take you seriously enough unless you look the part.
Pateys for hunting are on their way out. Mark my words. In a generation they will be all but gone.


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## cptrayes (7 December 2012)

It's my choice, I will get abuse for choosing it. And the more I am lectured by strangers about it, the more stubborn I get
		
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 Spacefaer 1 Drakerath 0


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## Goldenstar (7 December 2012)

I love mine now and again I get down the hat box take it out stroke it sigh then put it back away then go and ride in a modern safety standard Charles owen ( fionas hat type)..
It's not the same but it's safer.


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## Drakerath (7 December 2012)

Except you can't lecture stupid.

Pateys will be gone within a number of years. It's literally those whose parents fell victim to too much cross breeding and/or born with insufficient brain cells that continue to choose aesthetics over brain protection.
Plus those who are genuinely insecure and fear non acceptance by the hunting set. 

(However, the sort of person who chooses a Patey probably doesn't have much brain to protect in the first place so they are no better or worse off.)

I make choices for myself and I don't care what other people choose to wear. I'm certainly not interested in converting randoms on a forum into changing their headwear so don't think of me as lecturing 'other people'. I'm stating my views and what I think of other people when they make different choices. 

But do I even them to change? Not a bit of it!Who are we going laugh at if not the in-bred numptees lauding about in silly party hats. Every hunt needs some old fashioned, thick buffoons to poke fun at! They are 'characters'. Long may they reign


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## Drakerath (7 December 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I love mine now and again I get down the hat box take it out stroke it sigh then put it back away then go and ride in a modern safety standard Charles owen ( fionas hat type)..
It's not the same but it's safer.
		
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I have one too that I just use when I go eventing (dressage bit obvs). They look infinitely smarter than anything safe.


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## sbloom (7 December 2012)

Biting tongue....


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## VOM (7 December 2012)

After not posting for ages this thread has prompted me to reply. I find it quite offensive for one to call another stupid for choosing to wear a Patey. I know plenty who do and plenty who don't, personally I now wear a skull cap for Hunting and will continue to do so. However I feel very strongly that it's a personall choice and no one should be pressured either way.


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## monkeybum13 (7 December 2012)

VOM said:



			After not posting for ages this thread has prompted me to reply. I find it quite offensive for one to call another stupid for choosing to wear a Patey. I know plenty who do and plenty who don't, personally I now wear a skull cap for Hunting and will continue to do so. However I feel very strongly that it's a personall choice and no one should be pressured either way.
		
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I agree with this. I wear a velvet hat with leather strap because I choose to. People wear pateys because that is what they choose to do. No need for the name calling...


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## Drakerath (7 December 2012)

It's all relative though. Some people get upset over name calling. Other people have seen the fatal consequences of not wearing proper hats and finds such sentimentality more offensive than saying it like it is.

What reason is there for choosing to wear a Patey hat when proper hunting in this day and age? 
Can anyone name a reason that does not look stupid when compared to the efficacy of a skull cap (or equivalent).
You can't hide from the truth. The weak will put their head in the sand like an ostrich I suppose .


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## VOM (7 December 2012)

In that case should we all be wearing body protectors?


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## Drakerath (7 December 2012)

Yes if you feel the inconvenience of wearing a body protector is outweighed by the benefit they would bring if you fell.

Some would say that the relative protection by a body protector does not out weigh the restriction to your riding style - whereas with hats, there is no impingement whatsoever.

With skull caps versus Patey, the cost is nil and the benefit is quantifiable and absolute. It's a greyer area with body protectors so open to more subjective opinion.


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## sbloom (7 December 2012)

Okay, I'll say it - looking logically at your argument, why would you wear a Patey for dressage if you're not putting appearance over safety, which you have berated others for?  Is there some imaginary line where some forms of riding are safe, and other riding is unsafe?


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## cptrayes (7 December 2012)

Drakerath said:



			It's literally those whose parents fell victim to too much cross breeding and/or born with insufficient brain cells that continue to choose aesthetics over brain protection.

..... the sort of person who chooses a Patey probably doesn't have much brain to protect in the first place so they are no better or worse off.)

........the in-bred numptees lauding about in silly party hats
		
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Drakerath said:



			I have one too that I just use when I go eventing (dressage bit obvs). They look infinitely smarter than anything safe.
		
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Is it me  ????



ps unless you are riding at Novice or above you cannot wear a Patey at BE. If you are on a fit horse doing a novice test on a grass arena with the mandatory loose dogs, looser people, bellowing cows, crow scarers etc and you are wearing a Patey then I guess that you really do mean yourself when you wrote the stuff above


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## sbloom (7 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Is it me  ????



ps unless you are riding at Novice or above you cannot wear a Patey at BE. If you are on a fit horse doing a novice test on a grass arena with the mandatory loose dogs, looser people, bellowing cows, crow scarers etc and you are wearing a Patey then I guess that you really do mean yourself when you wrote the stuff above 

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Exactly my point when biting my tongue and my post above .


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## Drakerath (7 December 2012)

sbloom said:



			Okay, I'll say it - looking logically at your argument, why would you wear a Patey for dressage if you're not putting appearance over safety, which you have berated others for?  Is there some imaginary line where some forms of riding are safe, and other riding is unsafe?
		
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Because, as I said above in my earlier post, hunting typically invovling jumping and unpredictable conditions. Dressage, on a trained event horse, does not. Risk/reward analysis is on a continuum. It is not black and white. Humans take as assessment of the risk and make a decision accordingly. Again. As I have already said above.

So you trade aesthetics (with a Patey) over safety (crash hat). With dressage on an experienced, trained horse, the rider can decide that in this instance, the risk of a head injury is so remote and the perceived aesthetic benefit of wearing a Patey (because let's face it, there is no other benefit to wearing a Patey over any other choice of hat) is much greater, that the decision to wear the Patey wins out.

When jumping in fields of many unknown people (out hunting), the risk of falling is significant for any rider out there hence the decision by a human with a brain capable of processing basic risk and reward decisions,would be to take the headwear option that offers protection. 

Put simply, the risk is significant when hunting and insignficant when doing dressage.
How many hunting people have never falled out hunting? How many event riders fall off doing their test at a BE event?


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## Drakerath (7 December 2012)

lol. I'm typically doing Adv or Ints with my Pateys. With my youngsters, I take a view. 
As I said, risk/reward is on a continuum, not black and white.


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## cptrayes (7 December 2012)

Drakerath said:



			Because, as I said above in my earlier post, hunting typically invovling jumping and unpredictable conditions. Dressage, on a trained event horse, does not.
		
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You must be joking.  Nothing unpredictable about doing a dressage test in a grass arena in the middle of an open field? You live on a different planet from me


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## Drakerath (7 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You must be joking.  Nothing unpredictable about doing a dressage test in a grass arena in the middle of an open field? You live on a different planet from me 

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You're being facetious.
You are more likely to fall on a day's hunting (jumping day) than you are doing an intermediate BE dressage test. To suggest their likelihoods are comparable is risible. And lucky for me, BE is on myside because funnily enough you can wear the Pateys to do dressage but have to put on a real hat to go and jump in. Who'd a thunk it?!  
Still, as you say, perhaps your world is different and you really are as likely to slide off doing dressage in an open grass field as you are out jumping hedges with others cutting you up et al .


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## sbloom (7 December 2012)

You have taken a morally superior view here, and a very principled one (not that I disagree) over people who rate appearance as more important than safety.  You have insulted them in many different ways.  And then you say:

_They look infinitely smarter than anything safe_

And you really can't see the irony?!!  Perhaps a course in philosophy and the art of the argument....?


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## Drakerath (7 December 2012)

sbloom said:



			You have taken a morally superior view here, and a very principled one (not that I disagree) over people who rate appearance as more important than safety.  You have insulted them in many different ways.  And then you say:

_They look infinitely smarter than anything safe_

And you really can't see the irony?!!  Perhaps a course in philosophy and the art of the argument....?
		
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But they *are* infinitely smarter. I've never said they are not. I recognise that this is why people (including myself) wear them. But there comes a point where you have to put safety over aesthetics - and jumping will require this because you are increasing the level of risk to yourself.

You speak like it is an either /or situation with pateys and skull caps. It isn't. There is a place for both because no one can insure themselves fully against all types of risk. I don't walk out of the house encased in bubble wrap do I? Nor can you insure yourself against ALL risk when getting on a horse. You take a view and thus appropriate measures to protect yourself.
I maintain that anyone climbing aboard to go hedge hopping in muddy fields with 60 other nutters, is *stupid* if they don't put on a decent hat. We've all fallen out hunting haven't we?
It just isn't the same doing dressage!


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## VOM (7 December 2012)

Drakerath

But people have to make their own choices, this is my point. If someone wears a Patey has an accident and then chooses to wear a skull cap in the future it's their own personal choice if someone chooses not to, again its their choice. 

You could choose to drive a Renult or Volvo you could chose to drive a Porche or kit car, are these people stupid too. 

By your argument we should'nt be Hunting, Eventing, SJ'ing do Dressage or be happy hackers. 

If you call people stupid you will piss them off. Let people make their own choices.

*edited to add, you say there comes a point. Well everyone point will be different.


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## cptrayes (7 December 2012)

Drakerath said:



			You're being facetious.
		
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No, I am not.




			You are more likely to fall on a day's hunting (jumping day) than you are doing an intermediate BE dressage test.To suggest their likelihoods are comparable is risible.
		
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I don't dispute that and I never suggested that the likelihood was comparable.   Your comment was not about comparable risk at that point, what you wrote was that there is 




			nothing unpredictable
		
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about doing an Intermediate dressage test on a grass arena in the middle of a field at a BE event.  Which is of course nonsense, as I pointed out.

Plenty of experienced people have been badly hurt coming off totally sane and predictable horses in a safe environment. My own "favourite" example was a six year old which dropped dead underneath me in walk. If I'd not had a serious hat on I would be dead. As it is, I am partially deaf.

No riding is ever completely predictable.


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## Alec Swan (7 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You must be joking.  Nothing unpredictable about doing a dressage test in a grass arena in the middle of an open field? You live on a different planet from me 

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....... and apparently one without cotton wool too.  The answer,  I'd respectfully suggest,  is that you learn to ride. 

Alec.


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## Drakerath (7 December 2012)

"No riding is ever predictable."
Agreed.
Which brings us to why people of average or above intelligence would choose to go hedge hopping out hunting wearing a Patey? 
No affiliated horse groups allow people to get on and jump in anything less than a proper hat for a very basic reason. Why do certain, old fashioned hunting folk think they are above these obvious risks?
I can't say their choices are not stupid because I can't think of a reason to say otherwise. 
I can't even say I care if this pisses them off because I can't take their reasons for wearing a Patey to look good even when jumping fat hedges) as legitimate. They are a dying breed though (no pun intended). And before long they will have died out. Like dinosaurs. People will one day look back at them and think what the hell were they thinking!


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## cptrayes (7 December 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			....... and apparently one without cotton wool too.  The answer,  I'd respectfully suggest,  is that you learn to ride. 

Alec.
		
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It helps stop a horse with a burst aorta from a congenital weakness from dropping dead underneath you if you know how to ride, does it Alec?


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## cptrayes (7 December 2012)

Drakerath said:



			"No riding is ever predictable."
Agreed.
Which brings us to why people of average or above intelligence would choose to go hedge hopping out hunting wearing a Patey?
		
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But that wasn't the question. The question was why, after being so attacking and strongly critical of people who wear pateys hunting, you choose to wear one when riding at all. 

I feel exactly the same about anyone who wears one at any time on horseback.


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## Drakerath (7 December 2012)

Whether a horse drops dead under you as nothing to do with the inherent risk conditions of doing a dressage test. Alec was referring to your perception of risk when doing dressage I think.


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## Drakerath (7 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			But that wasn't the question. The question was why, after being so attacking and strongly critical of people who wear pateys hunting, you choose to wear one when riding at all. 

I feel exactly the same about anyone who wears one at any time on horseback.
		
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I explained why above; that risk is not black or white, yay or nay - it's a sliding scale and you take a view on it. There will always be a general consensus amongst any given population or riders.
ie When doing dressage you are generally low risk, when taking on B&SV hedges, you lay your life on the line .


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## cptrayes (7 December 2012)

Drakerath said:



			I explained why above; that risk is not black or white, yay or nay - it's a sliding scale and you take a view on it. There will always be a general consensus amongst any given population or riders.
ie When doing dressage you are generally low risk, when taking on B&SV hedges, you lay your life on the line .
		
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No-one else has a problem with that Drakerath, but you will remember perhaps that this exchange of ours began with me commenting on some pretty hefty criticism you made of others who exercise a different judgement to your own.

You cannot expect to go without comment yourself about your decision to wear a Patey at all if you want to go around being so utterly rude to people who wear them hunting, surely?


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## C&C (7 December 2012)

I think they do look smart and to call people stupid is not really fair - like others have said, its their choice. If you are deeming someone as 'stupid' for wearing one then you must mean for whichever discipline, not just Hunting? So that would mean you have rounded up ALOT of professionals (including our Olympics Games medal winners) and put them into this category! 

Just for the record i have decided to go with a harnessed hat but cannot find a new one that i like, i dont like the fit of any of the velvet hats! (have been trying on all sorts today!) So, i am sticking with my good faithful skull cap with a velvet cover  Will also save me some money


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## cptrayes (7 December 2012)

Drakerath said:



			Whether a horse drops dead under you as nothing to do with the inherent risk conditions of doing a dressage test.
		
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Yes it does. It indicates that all riding is potentially risky.




			Alec was referring to your perception of risk when doing dressage I think.
		
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I think you will find that Alec is perfectly capable of talking for himself.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (7 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I feel exactly the same about anyone who wears one at any time on horseback.
		
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Me too. 

I still visit my old mate who has been in a wheelchair since 1987 when she came off in warm up for dressage for a 2* event. Shes so much brain damage she can't even drink from a cup on her own, let alone ever thnk of going to a pub for a bevvy


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## Drakerath (7 December 2012)

C&C said:



			If you are deeming someone as 'stupid' for wearing one then you must mean for whichever discipline, not just Hunting? QUOTE]

Suggest you read all the previous posts since this is not what I said/meant.
		
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## C&C (7 December 2012)

TBH i got sick of the bitching  Some things never change! Ive got my answer and have made my decision. I will leave you to it


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## cptrayes (7 December 2012)

C&C said:



			If you are deeming someone as 'stupid' for wearing one then you must mean for whichever discipline, not just Hunting?
		
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Drakerath said:



			Suggest you read all the previous posts since this is not what I said/meant.
		
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Sure reads like it to me 



Drakerath said:



			Except you* can't lecture stupid.*

Pateys will be gone within a number of years. *It's literally those whose parents fell victim to too much cross breeding and/or born with insufficient brain cells *that continue to choose aesthetics over brain protection.
Plus *those who are genuinely insecure* and fear non acceptance by the hunting set. 

(However, the* sort of person who chooses a Patey probably doesn't have much brain to protect in the first place s*o they are no better or worse off.)


But do I even them to change? Not a bit of it!Who are we going laugh at if not *the in-bred numptees *lauding about in silly party hats. Every hunt needs some old fashioned, thick buffoons to poke fun at! They are 'characters'. Long may they reign 

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Drakerath said:



			I maintain that anyone climbing aboard to go hedge hopping in muddy fields with 60 other nutters*, is *stupid** if they don't put on a decent hat. We've all fallen out hunting haven't we?
It just isn't the same doing dressage!
		
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## Drakerath (7 December 2012)

That disingenuous.
You've cut and pasted without the context.
It is clear from my posts that my vitriol for Patey wearers extends to those wearing them when out hunting on proper jumping days only and not "all disciplines".


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## monkeybum13 (7 December 2012)

C&C, who do you intend to hunt with? PM if you prefer


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## VOM (7 December 2012)

C&C you've your decision made so your sorted, I too will be staying with my skull hat, even in an environment where every other lady will be in a top hat. I would hope that no comment is made to me for my personal choice as I would not dream of commentng on theirs.


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## Alec Swan (7 December 2012)

Drakerath said:



			........ Alec was referring to your perception of risk when doing dressage I think.
		
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Correct,  he was.



cptrayes said:



			.......

I think you will find that Alec is perfectly capable of talking for himself.
		
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Thank you,  and yes I can!  I really don't know why you become so cross with me.  I'm mostly only teasing you! 

Serious point now;  When ever I see pics of those who are trying to sell dressage horses,  they very rarely,  if ever,  have any form of head gear,  that's point one,  and point two,  are you honestly going to tell me that a top hat affords any sort of protection,  at all?

Another point for you;  a horse which drops dead from a heart attack (and yes,  of course I've seen it happen),  all so often takes a stumbling step or two before it actually goes down,  which should give the rider plenty of time to work out their exit strategy,  assuming that they can ride,  that is! 

The bigger the horse,  the more time that you have to plan for the meeting with terra firma!  Ponies give you no time at all,  I'll accept that.  Falls from dressage are extremely rare,  and also most unlikely (though not impossible),  to result in serious injury.

Alec.


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## Rowreach (7 December 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Another point for you;  a horse which drops dead from a heart attack (and yes,  of course I've seen it happen),  all so often takes a stumbling step or two before it actually goes down,  which should give the rider plenty of time to work out their exit strategy,  assuming that they can ride,  that is! 

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I have witnessed two people suffer severe head injuries out hunting when wearing Patey's which *did not come off when they had their falls.  One was a complete **** of a bloke who really cannot ride, took far too many risks and the fall was no surprise to anyone.

The other was an eminent lady master, a seriously lovely rider and very experienced horsewoman, who was sitting on her horse, flanked by two friends, at a standstill, at the top of a hill, watching hounds working at the bottom.  As she went to move off, her horse staggered, collapsed, and she ended up underneath him.  As he thrashed about for a few seconds, she took a blow from a hoof to the back of her Patey hat, which collapsed like the cardboard it is.  She was never the same again.  And it all happened far to quickly for her to have reacted.

It was interesting how many of the ultra elegant lady members who had made scathing remarks about my crash hat over the years suddenly turned up wearing them the following week *


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## Hunters (8 December 2012)

I'm just off to by a motorcycle helmet to wear in my car. Cars are dangerous & unpredictable.

Im only doing this as this is the way the world is going. As a children we rode bareback and hatless, how much fun & freedom we had....


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## Hunters (8 December 2012)

Also reading the previous posts, I learn that 'freedom of choice' is dwindling &  find that worrying for the future. 

What 'Orwellian' attitudes many of you have - sign of the times (sigh!)


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## Alec Swan (8 December 2012)

Hunters said:



			.......

........ As a children we rode bareback and hatless, how much fun & freedom we had....
		
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....... and we survived!  I've not sat on the back of a horse,  for ten years.  I have also,  never worn a hard hat,  and if I had my time again,  I wouldn't change a thing.  Irresponsible?  Possibly,  but it's my life and I shall live it,  as I chose! 

Alec.

Ets,  just a thought,  but even those two from "Breakback Mountain" didn't wear hard hats!


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## Ditchjumper2 (8 December 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			.......  ..but it's my life and I shall live it,  as I chose! 

Alec.
		
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Hear, hear!!


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## Goldenstar (8 December 2012)

As I posted earlier I don't wear my Patey anymore my OH asked me to change to a' modern' hat his words so I felt I ought.
If someone asked me the question I would answer honestly but i would never judge , volunteer a view or seek to impose the course of action I have taken on others we must make our own judgements as adults to Patey  not to Patey to wear a BP or not or an air jacket.
I hate this attiude that because I think it's best everyone should be enforced to this course.
We have still the right to go to the devil anyway we choose ( at least for the moment )
I do yearn for simple times when I was a child when our parents turned us out with the ponies in the morning and left us toget on with it


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## cptrayes (8 December 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Another point for you;  a horse which drops dead from a heart attack (and yes,  of course I've seen it happen),  all so often takes a stumbling step or two before it actually goes down,  which should give the rider plenty of time to work out their exit strategy,  assuming that they can ride,  that is! 
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You practice being offensive, don't you Alec 

My horse did not have a heart attack, it burst its aorta. You have clearly never been on a horse when its aorta bursts. I should try it before you try to tell me that I didn't know how to ride because I was knocked out, wearing a skull cap.

Are you also suggesting that everyone whose horse stumbles should throw themselves off while they are safe to do so? Half the field would be exiting the saddle each week, if so, it being impossible to tell a heart attack stumble from an I've-lost-my-footing stumble.

You do talk nonsense so often, which is a shame because on other posts where you are not simply trying to get an argument going you appear to be a largely rational and quite humourous man.


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## cptrayes (8 December 2012)

My own stance is that I defend anyone's right to wear what they like on their heads, but in return I do not expect to be looked down on because I wear a skull cap and an air jacket.

You can laugh at my plastic bridle if you like, and I'll laugh at you spending your time cleaning leather tack covered in an inch of mud


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## Cortez (8 December 2012)

Good grief! Why is everyone so rude? I choose not to wear a hat unless required to do so by competition or venue rules. I'm not particularly stupid, being in another country I'm not going to be troubling your NHS (the other boring argument routinely trotted out in the hat arguments), and I'm well aware that riding is inherantly risky - and I've had two horses drop dead with heart attacks whilst I was riding them (I stepped off, Alec will be pleased with me). This is my choice. It is most people in the UK's choice to ride with a helmet. For some reason this doesn't make me angry, nor feel the urge to call them stupid, or wimpy, or unfashionable. Lighten up, folks.


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## C&C (8 December 2012)

So to put the cat among the pigeons and cause more fury (probably) - what about hunting in a Beagler?? 

I have one and use it for ridden showing, and this is what i was gonna hunt in before thinking about the Patey. I know they are intended for foot use only but surely they offer as much protection as a top hat or bowler as we all are aware - is very little !

I am still contemplating it ...... I am a stickler for tradition


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## CrazyMare (8 December 2012)

Up to standard hat for me.

Seat belt in the car, every time, for me too.

I've spent time in ABI rehab before now, and the saddest cases are always the ones where safety measures that were easy to take, hadn't been taken.

The ones that stick in my mind are the 18 year old girl thrown from a car into a tree, because her mates laughed and said 'don't you trust me to drive properly'....

I would say I don't care what others do, but deep down I do, becuase I've been there, with the families crying on my shoulder, asking 'why?'. Its not a question I can ever answer. If I can stop that being my family, then I will do everything in my power to do that.

This video, which some of you may have seen, is ex Olympic dressage rider, Courtney King Dye, who came off in walk. She is having to work so hard to try to rebuild her life, and belive me if I say she is LUCKY compared to some I've looked after, that she has come out of this comparatively WELL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awJDYBhBPzk


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## Pinkvboots (8 December 2012)

I bet your really glad you started this OP, at the end of the day its peoples choice what they wear, charles owen do a much cheaper alternative about£100 look just as nice but kinder on the pocket I show in mine.


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## Alec Swan (8 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			They look great on stupid people.  No-one who isn't stupid wears one. 

.......
		
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I'm rather struggling with your second sentence,  are we to assume that Patey hats are only warn by idiots?  



VOM said:



			....... I find it quite offensive for one to call another stupid for choosing to wear a Patey.
		
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As do I,  even though I neither own,  nor wear one.  



cptrayes said:



			You practice being offensive, don't you Alec 

........
		
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Considering your previous posts,  I don't really see any need for me to defend myself,  do you?

Alec.


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## Dovorian (8 December 2012)

OK, I know I am stupid and do wear a Patey hat ....but Patey do make hats with a safety harness and I have to admit that my ancient one without straps etc didn't ever fall off when I made unscheduled dismounts.


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## combat_claire (8 December 2012)

I have seen a couple of nasty freakish accidents whilst out hunting. One of these was where a friend of mine took a fall over a low hunt jump, as she lay on the floor her horse caught her in the head with his hoof. She was wearing a jockey skull and this was dented and cracked. Her head was fine. 

If you want to opt for a proper hunt cap then for heaven's sake wear a real one, don't penny pinch and ride in a beagler. There is a reason why the label says, suitable for foot beagling only!

Wear whatever you want on your bonce, but remember that a head injury can kill or seriously disable you and the impact that might have on you and your loved ones.

Our pack does a lot of fund raising over the year and 2 charities we have supported this year include Spinal Research and East Anglian Air Ambulance. Consider them when thinking of a charity for your hunt fund raising.


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## natalia (8 December 2012)

After breaking my cheekbone and jaw in a fall out hunting and having my patey go flying off I have resigned it to gather dust in the tack room and use it for showing only now. Also at our opening meet a good friend had a rotational fall over a hedge. The horses backside landed straight on his head. His Charles Owen hat saved his life, although he spent a few days in an induced coma, and is still not functioning 100%. Had he been wearing a patey he would probably be dead. We thought we were going to lose him on the field that day, and now I won't hunt in anything but my HS1.


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## Judgemental (8 December 2012)

I suppose I would failing in not adding my ten penny worth to this thread.

Some years ago I was out with a West Country pack and a well known master of hounds was visiting and told me I was &#8220;wet&#8221; to be sporting a crash-skull, I have to say my opinion of him went down substantially.   

Furthermore as a devotee of High-Viz, I am firmly of the opinion state of the art harnessed crash-skulls should be worn at all times and folk should not give a damn what self appointed over opinionated grandees of hunting think.

I always feel the high crowned jobs make ladies look extremely arrogant and are nothing more than an affectation.

That said, I have noted as an ardent fan of International Dressage on Horse and Country TV that since the Olympics, Adelinde Cornelissen has so sensibly followed the lead from Charlotte Dujardin and dispensing with the dressage topper and is now wearing a harnessed head gear. 

Finally, I am aware of too many fatal accidents, where so called riding hats have ended up 20 yards in front of the prostrate rider, as they lay dying from a caved in skull. Having slid on a hard road or at speed round a corner and collided with a gate post or jumped a hedge and somebody's horse came down on top of them.   

When the soft velvet caps of the 18th Century were worn of which there is still an absurd continuing 'following of form or protocol' there were no hard tarmac roads, no motorised vehicles and the going was wholly different.


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## Sherston (8 December 2012)

Well, what a thread, I watched this one start and thought at the time this will be fun, it's like asking ROSPA if you should buy a ladder.

Most of this thread says so much more about the people that use forums, (just like the great riding in dayglo thread, that was a classic!) which luckily appears to not be a representative sample of the great people I meet out hunting and competing in general. I'm happy to leave you all in your computer world.

Before the comments come back, thats why my average posting is less than 3 a month. and i've concluded thats far too many.

Good luck all, lifes all about choices, as long as you are happy with your own i'd get on with enjoying it.

Best to all of you
Sherston


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## cptrayes (8 December 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm rather struggling with your second sentence,  are we to assume that Patey hats are only warn by idiots?
		
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Which bit don't you understand from my posts Alec? It's quite straightforward. In the context of riding a horse only, I believe that it is daft not to wear a full spec hat. I would, however, put myself to considerable effort and inconvenience to fight to retain the right of everyone in this country to do daft things if that is their personal choice.


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## LEC (8 December 2012)

I believe the issue of wearing hats out hunting is currently being looked at with regards to statistics about falls and outcomes from falls. I heard this at a Jon Pitts talk recently and it sparked my interest.


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## SusannaF (9 December 2012)

Rowreach said:



			I have witnessed two people suffer severe head injuries out hunting when wearing Patey's which *did not come off when they had their falls.  One was a complete **** of a bloke who really cannot ride, took far too many risks and the fall was no surprise to anyone.

The other was an eminent lady master, a seriously lovely rider and very experienced horsewoman, who was sitting on her horse, flanked by two friends, at a standstill, at the top of a hill, watching hounds working at the bottom.  As she went to move off, her horse staggered, collapsed, and she ended up underneath him.  As he thrashed about for a few seconds, she took a blow from a hoof to the back of her Patey hat, which collapsed like the cardboard it is.  She was never the same again.  And it all happened far to quickly for her to have reacted.

It was interesting how many of the ultra elegant lady members who had made scathing remarks about my crash hat over the years suddenly turned up wearing them the following week *

Click to expand...

*

When I was researching my book I found enough stories of children or teens being killed while riding in the 1950s and earlier. The good old days involved casualties too.*


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## natalia (9 December 2012)

LEC- this would be very interesting to read, however, hard to get the full facts as even when my friend came off and nearly died, not everyone in the hunt knew what had happened or what was going on. If anyone here wants a good advertisement for wearing a decent hat out hunting though I have the pictures, stage by stage, as the hunt camera lady was stood at the hedge as it happened with a very quick camera lens!


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## Hunters (9 December 2012)

I'm with Sherston. These topics do say a lot about the people on here..... 

The most opinionated, do not appear to listen or understand others points of view. They seem to shout loudest and insist their way is right. 

I've always believed in 'freedom of choice' & long may it stay that way.

****** off dictators!


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## VOM (9 December 2012)

Sherston and Hunters, indeed.


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## Judgemental (9 December 2012)

Go on ........ you all know you would be far more comfortable, warm and dry in a High-Viz Bomber Jacket for £23.00 from any good builder's merchants and safer with a state of the art harnessed crash skull....... out with say the Beaufort?

One of the features of the jacket is a zipped pocket at the rear for the whole width of the quilted lining.

Also the collar has a concealed hood, notwithstanding the fact when the collar is zipped right up it should come to the ears.

What is the point of riding in some tweed or twill that is cold, gets soaking wet like a damp rag and takes ages to dry out. Not forgetting the velvet hat when wet is awful, and does it keep you warm, not a chance! If you are really cunning you can wear a jockey's crash skull with cheek flaps that come down over the ears?

Who cares what the posts say about folk. All I am interested in is, staying dry, warm and safe.


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## mcnaughty (10 December 2012)

Hunters said:



			I wear my Patey - have had any number of falls & it has never come off. 

I have however seen riders get their hats with harnesses get caught in low branches. 

It's all about personal choice. Horses for courses etc.
		
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They probably need to learn to duck faster then ;-)

I have a beautiful new harnessed show hat but will still be wearing my Gatehouse HS1 crash helmet for hunting.  Give a damn what my hat looks like - more concerned about my brain!


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## tootsietoo (10 December 2012)

I've said before I think, that I'm sure if we had all been wearing hi-viz and calling ourselves, for instance, "South Shropshire Free Rural Pest Control Service" for the last 40 years no one would have been bothered about banning hunting!

I have a new hi-viz Dickies bomber jacket for hacking this winter and it is fabulously warm and dry.

As for Pateys - I certainly wouldn't myself.  And I'd rather not be picking up the pieces of someone who falls off wearing one.


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## Judgemental (10 December 2012)

tootsietoo said:



			I've said before I think, that I'm sure if we had all been wearing hi-viz and calling ourselves, for instance, "South Shropshire Free Rural Pest Control Service" for the last 40 years no one would have been bothered about banning hunting!

I have a new hi-viz Dickies bomber jacket for hacking this winter and it is fabulously warm and dry.

As for Pateys - I certainly wouldn't myself.  And I'd rather not be picking up the pieces of someone who falls off wearing one.
		
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Tootsietoo, you have a point, if only folk could think out of the box, things would be so much more comfortable.


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## arizonahoney (10 December 2012)

We need to rebrand...as extreme hackers...


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## Jenni_ (10 December 2012)

Stepping tentatively in here since I've never hunted (looking to though with new horse) to offer my opinion.

I am of the view that 'Everyone is entitled to do as they wish, as long as they are not hurting anyone else, or breaking the law' 

I never used to wear a helmet for flat work, but always for hacking / jumping. I have only once not worn a hat for hacking and felt very silly afterwards. At my old work, noone wore hats to ride hardly ever. Shortly after I left there, I was standing on the yard on my very quiet TB. I had my hat on as we were going to hack. Asked him to take one step forward, and for an unknown reason he blew his top, reared up, and came back over on the top of me. Broken ankle and ribs, and a rather nasty case of concussion. 

What if I'd planned to school? I would have hopped up there hatless and the same could have happened, before we even got off the yard and into the school. Have always worn a hat since to ride - except from when I've had a few pictures of me sitting on my horse but that was for a photographer. 

I appreciate the beauty of tradition and I myself can be a stickler for it, and I understand how much it means to the hunting folk, but honestly to me a hat is a hat and I've never looked at someone hunting in a skull cap and thought 'urrgh, that looks terrible and so out of place'

So, each to their own, and as long as no one is looked down on for breaking tradition and appreciating their safety, then leave alone the people who are continuing tradtion.


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## NooNoo59 (10 December 2012)

whats could enough for a double olympic gold meddalist is good enough for me!


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## Starzaan (10 December 2012)

**whispers**

I love my Patey......


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## Ditchjumper2 (10 December 2012)

Starzaan said:



			**whispers**

I love my Patey......
		
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Shhhh   so do I........


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## CFA (11 December 2012)

(in barely audible whisper) Me too...


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## Christmas Crumpet (11 December 2012)

I used to hunt in a Patey and only stopped because I had a new horse, an exracehorse, who I introduced to hunting and wasn't quite sure how well he would behave... quite badly to start off with!!

And now I still hunt in a crash cap because its far more comfy than my Patey ever was. 

I feel safer in a crash cap - simples.

However, I do NOT judge people on what they wear on their heads. OH wears a Patey. OH's mother had a horrific hunting fall wearing a bowler and was in a coma for months and in hospital for 2 years. OH still wears his Patey and we do have arguements about it but its his choice.


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## Alec Swan (12 December 2012)

Starzaan said:



			**whispers**

I love my Patey......
		
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Ditchjumper2 said:



			Shhhh   so do I........
		
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CFA said:



			(in barely audible whisper) Me too...
		
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..... and I'd bet that you're wearing entirely unsuitable underwear too,  aren't you? 

Alec.


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## RunToEarth (12 December 2012)

I love my Patey, and I resent being called stupid, its a funny old world though.


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## rangefinder (13 December 2012)

From my experience, generally, a Patey marks a distinct type of follower, those who are more interested in hound work and puritan hunting rather than the crash cap adorned equestrians there for the ride. The Patey wearers are the ones in the pre-ban days who would be glad to see a fox caught - perhaps this is why they attract so much hatred from certain forum members? As someone who has never been on here before it does not strike me as unduly surprising that those with such mindless, bigoted and forceful opinions are able to devote so much time to forum posting in the middle of a working day

To the matter in hand, many of us have had enough of this smart but safe line that gets trotted out, body protectors/air jackets/sumo suits over a jacket look awful compared to a well fitting tweed jacket or wool coat. That is a fact. However the wearing of them is encouraged by all hunts  recognising the advances in safety and respecting peoples desire to wear them irrespective of the detrimental effect it has on their appearance and indeed breach to traditionally correct hunt attire. You are welcomed wearing your protective gear as warmly and equally as anyone else and that shows that hunting is a sport in keeping with the times. Thus those of you who come along in this kit should not be preaching to those who adapted the rules to allow you to wear what you wished to in the first place.

If you fall off a horse at anytime, anywhere, at any stage of your life wearing anything you may die. Fact. The ultimate way to protect yourself is not to get on a horse in the first place. People have died and survived from head injuries wearing crash caps and Pateys alike; Pateys have come off peoples heads Pateys have stayed on peoples heads. All related stories, as tragic in some cases as they may be, are irrelevant. If you hit your head you may die, end up in a Persistent Vegetative State, gain a whole host of permanent brain injuries or escape unscathed. This could be hugely traumatic and costly for your family and your friends and you could be a drain on the NHS costing taxpayers hundreds of thousands of pounds perhaps more. These are real risks, inherent risks, that everyone is taking and whilst it seems evidently sensible to wear as much protective equipment as possible it is not obligatory. A crash helmet may well reduce the risk or the severity of these potential injuries, as may a Patey to a lesser degree, everyone who wears a Patey knows all this; you do not need to keep saying it. The powerful polarities of tradition, practicality, comfort, perhaps vanity and increasingly obstinacy make people carry on wearing their Pateys irrespective. So they are stupid? Absolutely not, some of the most intelligent people I know wear Pateys out hunting. Remember it is always the done thing to look at the worst possible outcome, irrespective of the thousands out every hunting day that come home a bit muddier but entirely unharmed. To crack out the old classic, there is higher chance of being hit by a bus in the street than getting a head injury out hunting.

By extension, as food for thought, should bicycle helmets be mandatory? Should the Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment ditch the State Ceremonial helmets and strap on a Charles Owen?

Without wanting to get into the minefield of the protective capabilities of a Patey (it is not even worth claiming they offer as much protection as a crash cap) the MFHA report found them fit for purpose after undertaking a comprehensive review including looking at historic incidents and conducting crash testing, the fact that employers can supply employees with Pateys as protective headgear without the use of a disclaimer to carry out their paid work in these safety-prioritising times is for me their most glowing endorsement. But do consider Eventing and Team Racing are the sports with the highest fatality rates and they insist on full protective headgear at all times. 

We are all like minded people, hunting has to come first. Try to keep your headgear choices to yourself or those you are responsible for. Turn up wearing as much or as little protective equipment as you want, in the twenty-first century no one should mind if you turn up with crash hat, body protector and point two or simply a top hat, above all turn up. Would it not be nice to put this debate to bed, respect each others choices, and just kick on?


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## Alec Swan (13 December 2012)

I haven't the faintest idea who you are,  rangefinder,  but that was an excellent post.  I'm your servant. 

Alec.


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## Hunters (13 December 2012)

Rangefinder / You are refreshingly articulate


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## Drakerath (13 December 2012)

rangefinder said:



			From my experience, generally, a Patey marks a distinct type of follower, those who are more interested in hound work and puritan hunting rather than the crash cap adorned equestrians there for the ride. The Patey wearers are the ones in the pre-ban days who would be glad to see a fox caught - perhaps this is why they attract so much hatred from certain forum members? As someone who has never been on here before it does not strike me as unduly surprising that those with such mindless, bigoted and forceful opinions are able to devote so much time to forum posting in the middle of a working day&#8230;

To the matter in hand, many of us have had enough of this &#8216;smart but safe&#8217; line that gets trotted out, body protectors/air jackets/sumo suits over a jacket look awful compared to a well fitting tweed jacket or wool coat. That is a fact. However the wearing of them is encouraged by all hunts &#8211; recognising the advances in safety and respecting people&#8217;s desire to wear them irrespective of the detrimental effect it has on their appearance and indeed breach to traditionally correct hunt attire. You are welcomed wearing your protective gear as warmly and equally as anyone else and that shows that hunting is a sport in keeping with the times. Thus those of you who come along in this kit should not be preaching to those who adapted the rules to allow you to wear what you wished to in the first place.

If you fall off a horse at anytime, anywhere, at any stage of your life wearing anything you may die. Fact. The ultimate way to protect yourself is not to get on a horse in the first place. People have died and survived from head injuries wearing crash caps and Pateys alike; Pateys have come off people&#8217;s heads Pateys have stayed on people&#8217;s heads. All related stories, as tragic in some cases as they may be, are irrelevant. If you hit your head you may die, end up in a Persistent Vegetative State, gain a whole host of permanent brain injuries or escape unscathed. This could be hugely traumatic and costly for your family and your friends and you could be a drain on the NHS costing taxpayers hundreds of thousands of pounds perhaps more. These are real risks, inherent risks, that everyone is taking and whilst it seems evidently sensible to wear as much protective equipment as possible it is not obligatory. A crash helmet may well reduce the risk or the severity of these potential injuries, as may a Patey to a lesser degree, everyone who wears a Patey knows all this; you do not need to keep saying it. The powerful polarities of tradition, practicality, comfort, perhaps vanity and increasingly obstinacy make people carry on wearing their Pateys irrespective. So they are stupid? Absolutely not, some of the most intelligent people I know wear Pateys out hunting. Remember it is always the done thing to look at the worst possible outcome, irrespective of the thousands out every hunting day that come home a bit muddier but entirely unharmed. To crack out the old classic, there is higher chance of being hit by a bus in the street than getting a head injury out hunting.

By extension, as food for thought, should bicycle helmets be mandatory? Should the Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment ditch the State Ceremonial helmets and strap on a Charles Owen?

Without wanting to get into the minefield of the protective capabilities of a Patey (it is not even worth claiming they offer as much protection as a crash cap) the MFHA report found them &#8216;fit for purpose&#8217; after undertaking a comprehensive review including looking at historic incidents and conducting crash testing, the fact that employers can supply employees with Pateys as protective headgear without the use of a disclaimer to carry out their paid work in these safety-prioritising times is for me their most glowing endorsement. But do consider Eventing and Team Racing are the sports with the highest fatality rates and they insist on full protective headgear at all times. 

We are all like minded people, hunting has to come first. Try to keep your headgear choices to yourself or those you are responsible for. Turn up wearing as much or as little protective equipment as you want, in the twenty-first century no one should mind if you turn up with crash hat, body protector and point two or simply a top hat, above all turn up. Would it not be nice to put this debate to bed, respect each others choices, and just kick on?
		
Click to expand...

You see on the face of it, these are indeed pretty words but they actually lack conviction and are not just based on a small number of incorrect presumptions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From my experience, generally, a Patey marks a distinct type of follower, those who are more interested in hound work and puritan hunting rather than the crash cap adorned equestrians there for the ride. 

**No. I'm avid in my hunting. I'm there from the off at 6am and out at least twice a week. I'm there for the hunting. If I want a ride, I take my eventers out.More and more people are switching from a Patey to a proper hat. These include the puritans. Pateys are on their way out.

*The Patey wearers are the ones in the pre-ban days who would be glad to see a fox caught - perhaps this is why they attract so much hatred from certain forum members?*
**Wrong inference drawn here I think. 
Patey wearers are indeed the ones pre ban days happy to see a fox caught. That was because pre ban there was no 'shame' in wanting to see a fox caught because it was not criminal! And back in 2005 (and before) more people than now were wearing Pateys! You are stating a truism not deducting valid conclusions.!

As to suggesting that "forceful, bigotted opinions" are the domain of the unemployed or those without need for employment, well that beggars belief! You can genuinely have no idea what gainful employment people here may have or when they engage in it. 

Then you get all verbose about the risks. You dance around the issue and very nearly talk yourself into saying that crash hats and pateys offer similar protection (ie very little) in the face of a head injury but then you think better of it. Then this:
* The powerful polarities of tradition, practicality, comfort, perhaps vanity and increasingly obstinacy make people carry on wearing their Pateys irrespective. So they are stupid? Absolutely not, some of the most intelligent people I know wear Pateys out hunting*.
Well this needs dissection and challenging. I agree with the underlined reasons but I don't think you can say Patey hats are in anyway more practical (they fall off more easily which counters the application of a chin strap) and they are certainly not anymore comfortable that a padded crash hat! So strip this out and you are left with:
tradition, vanity and obstinacy as reasons for contining.
Do any of these reasons represent an intelligant choice?
I would say no.
Could you infer these are somewhat stupid reasons for choosing inferior head protection in a high risk sport. Well, I wager you can call these reasons stupid.
The people themselves may not be "stupid" per se, and may well be intelligent people with increible jobs (Stephen Hester MFH for example) but this does not mean that intelligent people can make apparently stupid decisions.

Then you come on to this:
*By extension, as food for thought, should bicycle helmets be mandatory? Should the Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment ditch the State Ceremonial helmets and strap on a Charles Owen?*
Well I would suggest that cycle helmets are worn by people in risky traffic areas as a matter of course. The Cavalry's ceremonial duties are very low risk. Last time I looked, they are not asked to charge on mass at a hedge with ditch aft' and as such, it was be taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut to ask them to wear crash hats to prance around their duties.

So the MFHA decided PAteys were good to go. Well, I never?! Who would have thought the MFHA would endorse Pateys. What a totally unexpected conclusion to thei rown investigation. HA HA HA. I'm not sure that it would count as a ringing endoresement for independent investigation there , would it.

And finally, I would expect that eventing and team chasing may have higher fatality rates, which themselves are very low. However, in terms of serious injuries, the number of incidents would rise. Of course such incidents are not recorded out hunting so you are unable to make any comparison but it is worth bearing in mind that at a day's eventing, many hundreds of horses each jump 25 cross country jumping efforts that are designed to test the abilities of that horse at that range. They are designed to TEST. Hunting is a different kind of test. A test of the unknown and it is the ground conditions and our fellow riders that present a greater risk to our horses and their jumping. I feel it is disingenuous to infer that eventing and team chasing is more risky than hunting on a proper jumping day.

Whilst of course it remains a free world and hunting, a sport largely untouched by Health and Safety, it is hard to deny the human spirit which seeks to protect our fellow human beings. It is irksome to many who see people flying in the face of such an obvious and costless improvement to the head protection of our fellow men.I feel in the long term, the desire to keep our heads safe will win out over tradition and vanity and Pateys will reduce in number as each season passes as people no longer make choices based on silly, if not stupid reasons.

So in summary, I find your pretty words are easily challenged  - however you do write well!


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## rangefinder (14 December 2012)

Many thanks Alec and Hunters.

Now to Drakerath:

I was in two minds whether to respond to your post, for me this is not a personal battle, my post may have seemingly lacked conviction but that is because I am willing and able to address both sides of the issue. Your response was generic in this forum setting; picking at the minutiae in order to attempt to discredit the whole post.

First of all it does appear you have dropped some of the offensiveness of your previous posts you now refer to silly reasons, an apt moderation we can all be grateful for.

My point about the type of follower who wears a Patey is a generalisation (hence I start it with the word generally, one to watch out for) there was no suggestion that hunting puritans exclusively wear Pateys; that would be ridiculous. Congratulations on your personal commitment to hunting  admirable.

You stated my next statement was a truism, so I wont get bogged down with that one.

With regards to the unemployment point you have inferred those suggestions yourself; I drew attention to when the posts were made and the constituent content that is all. (Incidentally, if I had to guess one phrase you would have included in your inevitable response to my post beggars belief would have been it  I was delighted to see it included at such an early stage.)

Characteristically of your attempt to discredit my post you do not seem particularly interested in actually discussing the head injury aspect of the whole debacle, the very crux of this whole debate you brush over. Astounding really. 

The practicality of Pateys are more apparent to hunt staff than the field I suppose, but when pushing through dense woodland having a smaller, lighter hat that is not attached around your neck is a major advantage. In terms of comfort a well fitted Patey feels as though you are not wearing anything on your head at all compared to a bulky spherical crash cap, though admittedly there are some who complain about the tightness of their Pateys.

Whilst it might seem obvious when applying your, no doubt trademark, cutting cynicism to the MFHAs approval of Pateys that the decision was indeed a forgone conclusion, you are mistaken. The MFHA aims to promote hunting and to protect all those involved, leaving aside peoples heads for a moment, this also means protection from litigation. One successful head injury claim brought against any hunt would financially break it. Certain hunts financial states withstanding, provided a proximate and foreseeable duty of care could be established  which is exceedingly likely  the MFHA could become directly liable for individual damages. Consequently the suggestion that the MFHA report was a fix is entirely predictable but utterly uninformed.

Whilst you find it irksome to witness people not wearing crash helmets, traditionalists find it similarly exasperating to see a person freshly awarded the hunt button, with their coat adorned appropriately for the first time, concealing it under a point two air jacket. The fundamental problem with this debate  and in fact most others  is the inability of those involved to see there are two justifiable sides to it. The only way around this issue is to do as you see fit and not to complain/gesticulate wildly when others do as they wish.

I would like to reiterate the closing paragraph from my last post:
We are all like minded people, hunting has to come first. Try to keep your headgear choices to yourself or those you are responsible for. Turn up wearing as much or as little protective equipment as you want, in the twenty-first century no one should mind if you turn up with crash hat, body protector and point two or simply a top hat, above all turn up. Would it not be nice to put this debate to bed, respect each others choices, and just kick on?


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## Hunters (14 December 2012)

Bravo!! Grip hard, kick on & just go huntIng !!


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## combat_claire (14 December 2012)

rangefinder said:



			bulky spherical crash cap, though admittedly there are some who complain about the tightness of their Pateys.
		
Click to expand...

I wonder if you have met the same MH that I know whose hat is so tight it leaves him with a red groove on his forehead after hunting. For some reason he won't get it re-fitted, ouch! 




rangefinder said:



			We are all like minded people, hunting has to come first. Try to keep your headgear choices to yourself or those you are responsible for. Turn up wearing as much or as little protective equipment as you want, in the twenty-first century no one should mind if you turn up with crash hat, body protector and point two or simply a top hat, above all turn up. Would it not be nice to put this debate to bed, respect each others choices, and just kick on?
		
Click to expand...

well said, out with us we see anything and everything on heads from traditional hunt caps to jockey skull caps with those ear thinggys. I think I even saw a top hat once (but he only wore it for the meet to save trashing it!). The footies can be seen sporting an even greater variety from cycle helmets for those on bikes to flat caps and an interesting luminous orange bobble hat! 

My major consideration was cost, I simply couldn't afford £400+ for a lovely hat and had to have a sit down after spending £100 on a velvet safety hat.


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## PortwayPaddy (15 December 2012)

I hunt with a Bloodhound pack.

Every Sunday morning I look longingly at my Patey.

Then pack my Fiona and point2.  I get on my crutches and point my horse at the ramp - he loads himself.

As a disabled person (in an accident) who loves to hunt, my husband has said two things.  I must wear a hat with a strap and my point2 when hunting.  

He has seen me in a coma, plaster, fixators and pain.

A Fiona and point2 are a small price to pay to be able to carry on.

The Fiona has been properly fitted and is extremely comfortable, the point2, the same.

Gasp, horror I also hack in my P2.  

Paddy


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## Starzaan (15 December 2012)

It makes me very sad to read these horrible comments directed at people. It is everyone's right to do as they please with their heads - I exercise my right to be "stupid" and hunt in my Patey. I would never wear it to hunt a horse I didn't know, choosing instead to wear my skull cap, but it's still my choice. 

For those saying that people who choose to wear Patey's must be unaware of the risks, I'm afraid you're wrong. My lovely neice was in hospital for months after a freak riding accident left her with a serious brain injury. Thankfully she is alright now, but it was a terrible thing to see an eight year old girl in such a state.

I also had a very near miss whilst riding in Mexico. We were galloping flat out, and the horse I was riding stumbled and flipped over - he threw me about thirty feet out of the way, and I slid along the ground on my face. I wasn't wearing a hat, and was so lucky to walk away with just a few cuts on my face. He snapped the pommel of his western saddle - had I been underneath him I would have been killed. This near miss didn't make me rush back to the ranch to find a hat, it made me realise how lucky I had been, and that I should be riding slightly more carefully and not just thinking about speed. I got back on and rode for the rest of the day with no problems. 

It's up to me what I do with my head. And I LOVE my Patey.


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## Ditchjumper2 (15 December 2012)

I agree Starzaan. It is personal choice. I too wear a crash hat if hunting something borrowed or unknown. But the rest of the time I wear my Patey. It is my choice. This is a (reasonably) free society. It is our choice what we wear. If you want to wear a back protector and crash hat...then fine. But equally if you want to wear a Patey that is fine too.


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## Mailliw (19 December 2012)

Not sure if any of you saw the ad in the magazine a couple weeks back but Patey are bringing out a BSI kitemarked hat in the new year.

MFHA, BSI and EU approved.


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## combat_claire (19 December 2012)

Excellent news, that will be something to save up for


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