# Gastric Ulcers......advice/help please.



## Perfect_Pirouette (14 January 2013)

Okay, so my horse went to the vets on Friday and he has suspected gastric ulcers, or put another way he MAY have gastric ulcers.

In fact, the more the days pass the more Im convinced he has. He hasnt been scoped yet though.

I am looking for advice/recommendations etc from people on any supplements, products, diet changes etc that help horses with ulcers.

I know GG is obviously the medication/treatment needed but as I say, he hasnt been scoped yet and may not be able to for another few weeks so any suggestions in the meantime are much appreciated.

Thanks


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## ellie_e (14 January 2013)

Lots of fibre! Try and cut out all hard/cereal out of the diet. Feedmark have a good supplement for ulcers, maybe worth reading up about that.  Good luck with the scope, its not a very nice procedure but at least you'l have some answers.


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## YasandCrystal (14 January 2013)

If you want to test to see the likelihood of him having ulcers I would suggest you give him 7 Rantacidine twice a day in a forage feed.
Then feed him a forage feed 10 minutes before you ride or girth up and you may see an improvement if he has ulcers as the Rantacidine and the forage will bring some temporary relief. You can try the same using a cup of limestone flour too over a few days period twice a day to the same effect. None of these 'cure ' the  ulcers they just mask them.

An ulcer friendly diet is very similar to a barefoot diet - no sugar/molasses/haylage/apples. Adlib forage in the form of hay/alfalfa. Alfalfa is helpful due to high calcium levels. As much turnout as possible and as little stress as possible. My horse had ulcers due to pain from another serious condition. If you can get to the bottom of why the horse has ulcers in the first place. Always give forage before ridden work. People swear by Feedmark's Ulcer calm and there is another they do for stressy horses which again is helpful for cibbers and ulcer prone, but the name eludes me for now.
This website is very informative:
http://www.lunatunesfreestyles.com/horse_ulcers.htm


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## ArcticFox (14 January 2013)

YasandCrystal said:



			If you want to test to see the likelihood of him having ulcers I would suggest you give him 7 Rantacidine twice a day in a forage feed.
Then feed him a forage feed 10 minutes before you ride or girth up and you may see an improvement if he has ulcers as the Rantacidine and the forage will bring some temporary relief. You can try the same using a cup of limestone flour too over a few days period twice a day to the same effect. None of these 'cure ' the  ulcers they just mask them.

An ulcer friendly diet is very similar to a barefoot diet - no sugar/molasses/haylage/apples. Adlib forage in the form of hay/alfalfa. Alfalfa is helpful due to high calcium levels. As much turnout as possible and as little stress as possible. My horse had ulcers due to pain from another serious condition. If you can get to the bottom of why the horse has ulcers in the first place. Always give forage before ridden work. People swear by Feedmark's Ulcer calm and there is another they do for stressy horses which again is helpful for cibbers and ulcer prone, but the name eludes me for now.
This website is very informative:
http://www.lunatunesfreestyles.com/horse_ulcers.htm

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I'm guessing you mean ranitidine?  

Unfortunately horses are totally different to people.  They have an odd layout for their stomach.  The gut lining has a non glandular region at the top and glandular at the bottom.  Basically the oesophageal lining (which has no gut protectant cells) continues into the top part of the stomach.  The bottom part has the gut mucous producing cells so has better protection from stomach acid.  

using ranitidine will be pretty ineffective in a horse - this is an antacid (like alot of feed supplements) which will neutralise the stomach acid - like it does with people.  The difference with us and horses is that we only produce acid when we are eating so neutralising the acid helps us.  With horses they produce 2 litres (think a large coke bottle) of acid per hour  so the ranitidine will only neutralise the acid in the stomach at the time you give it.  so within a short period this will be useless.  

It might be worth trying ranitidine prior to riding. although a small handful of chaff just before you ride is worth doing as it sits on the top of the acid reduces splashes onto the non glandular region where ulcers may occur. 

If your horse has ulcers - in glandular (these take much longer to heal) and non glandular then they will require GG treatment.  

GG is a product called Omeprazole.  It is not available as a feed supplement, and afaik isn't available from a different manufacturer (perhaps imported? but that is illegal). Omeprazole is a proton pump inhibitor, this works by reducing the amount of acid produced so allowing the ulcers to heal. 

I would say it is worth asking for a scope to be done imho. 

Good luck, the best thing about ulcers is that they are treatable. 

X

Useful website: http://www.equinegastriculcers.co.uk/ shows pictures of the stomach and ulcers.


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## Hedwards (14 January 2013)

I went through this with my new horse. I havent actually ended up having him scoped...

His behaviour changed like someone flicked a switch, and culminated in us parting company... and me loosing my confidence with him.

I spoke to my vets and we agreed initially, as we believed it was related to stress, to try him on an off the shelf supplement and see what happened.

He was already out 24/7, and being fed fast fibre which is a good diet, but I popped him onto Feedmark Ulcer Calm, and also Alltech Lifeforce (the lifeforce primarily as an alround vit&min supplement), and due to him turning his nose up at the FF, i have added Dengie Health Tummy to his diet. He's still out 24/7, with ok grazing but plenty of haylage put out twice a day.

He was on this for a fortnight, and I decided to get back on... and since then he has been absolutely fantastic, his behaviour is brilliant and he's never gone better for me to ride. he is fine to girth/groom and has no reaction to any of the pressure points.

I have lowered the ulcer calm to once a day, and have seen no change in his behaviour, and may well wean him right off to see what happens, if he gets worse, I will get him scoped and onto GG, if not, I will leave him and see how we get on.

Before I ride, he gets a bucket of the Dengie Healthy Tummy on its own, and other then that, i dont treat him any differently...

Good luck op


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## YasandCrystal (14 January 2013)

ArcticFox said:



			I'm guessing you mean ranitidine?  

Unfortunately horses are totally different to people.  They have an odd layout for their stomach.  The gut lining has a non glandular region at the top and glandular at the bottom.  Basically the oesophageal lining (which has no gut protectant cells) continues into the top part of the stomach.  The bottom part has the gut mucous producing cells so has better protection from stomach acid.  

using ranitidine will be pretty ineffective in a horse - this is an antacid (like alot of feed supplements) which will neutralise the stomach acid - like it does with people.  The difference with us and horses is that we only produce acid when we are eating so neutralising the acid helps us.  With horses they produce 2 litres (think a large coke bottle) of acid per hour  so the ranitidine will only neutralise the acid in the stomach at the time you give it.  so within a short period this will be useless.  

It might be worth trying ranitidine prior to riding. although a small handful of chaff just before you ride is worth doing as it sits on the top of the acid reduces splashes onto the non glandular region where ulcers may occur.
		
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I beg to differ AF. My vet advised the Ranitidine test! I did say it does NOT cure - will only indicate the possibility of ulcers.


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## ArcticFox (14 January 2013)

7 ranitidine tablets would not be effective. 

you need to give 44 tablets to a 500kg for it to be useful in any way at all.

Guess we will not agree on this one. 

http://rules.britishhorseracing.com/Orders-and-rules&staticID=126865&depth=2


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## Perfect_Pirouette (14 January 2013)

He is currently fed:

1 scoop of Power and Performance, 1 large scoop of Honeychop with garlic twice daily. I put oil in his feed and for the past 8 days he has had 2 scoops of Naf Gastri Aid, however symptoms haven't improved. I was told on Sat though that Gastri Aid is useless and is basically the bargain basement ulcer supplement. Instead I was recommended Equine America's ulcer calm is it? Or gastro calm or something?

Basically, like you Hedwards, I want to hopefully get an indication of ulcers first if possible before scoping.


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## Holidays_are_coming (14 January 2013)

I agree with arctic fox, you have to give lots of ranitidine tablets for it to be effective.

The only treatment is ompeprazole but constant access to fibre, hay rather than haylage, decrease in stressful situations (if I remember correctly you have moved him recently this could be a trigger).


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## Holidays_are_coming (14 January 2013)

I'd get rid of the power and performance if you need energy or condition try either cool stance copra or a Sarecen product for ulcer/horses that tie up. Also change the honey chop for alfalfa it helps to neutralise the stomach acid!


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## Holidays_are_coming (14 January 2013)

Sorry cant edit on my phone it's called Saracen relieve, I think ps has cs on it and its going well!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (14 January 2013)

yes!

get rid of the P+P and swap to saracen re-leve, its high energy but ulcer friendly.


cant imagine the honey chop has any value so swap for alfa a or alfa a oil which is better for ulcers and energy.

only GG or straight omeprazole will heal, but ive had super results with Egusin SLH for after care, best one ive tried on CS (feedmark ulcer calm is one of the better budget ones).


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## SpottedCat (14 January 2013)

SS - the symptoms of ulcers are so varied that whatever you do you may not get an indication by changing feed/supplements first. For example my retired horse's only symptom was chipping in at combination fences - and he was already fed an entirely fibre diet and was turned out 24/7 at the time. 

Scoping really isn't expensive and can be done at your yard. It was only about £130ish when I last had it done, which in the grand scheme of horse owning is nothing! 

If you really think it is ulcers, get him scoped asap - the problem is that if it is and you don't sort it, then it can lead to long term issues which take a great deal of time to resolve - it took a long time to get my boy back SJ properly again, I don't think he was ever quite the same horse, and I spent a fortune with a pro rider. If there hadn't been such a delay in diagnosing my horse his performance would never have deteriorated to the point it did.


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## Hedwards (14 January 2013)

Oh, and i forgot to say he gets Micronised linseed too...

I have no idea what the P&P or the honeychop are like, but you basically want low starch & low sugar, FF and/or Alfa-a or similar would be a perfect base, I like to use FF to bulk the feed out as its inexpensive (plus its what i feed my retired mare so buy it anyway). Alfalfa is a really good 'buffer', so anything high in that would be good, but be warned, some horses do react to it, I'm lucky and my boy doesnt...


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## Perfect_Pirouette (14 January 2013)

Right, okay I am writing all this down thanks.

Right, I need to get a 2nd opinion from another vets then as I was quoted a lot more than that on Fri, christ if thats the case I'd have him scoped tomorrow.


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## SpottedCat (14 January 2013)

Your insurance should cover it anyway - the only reason I thought the cost was relevant is if they're not insured!


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## Tr0uble (14 January 2013)

When I had Snip scoped it cost £130. That was about 4 years ago now but i can't imagine it will be THAT much more now.

No amount of diet and management change will fully help if the horse does have ulcers until you have actually cured them, and the only way to do that is Omeprazole. GG being the only licensed form of that in this country.

If you are insured, then get scoped, get a claim form, and the insurance will pay out on Gastrogard...easiest way.

After that, the diet and management are the most important part. There are many supplements, you will need some trial and error to get the right one for your horse, but general rules are to keep stress to a minimum, cut out sugar and starch wherever possible...high fibre feeds, and small, long fibre feeds before and after riding as these will form a barrier that will stop/reduce acid splashes.

Adding liquid oil (unfortunatley micronised linseed won't do the same job) is great for giving a coating in the stomach, thicker oils like soya or corn are ideal.

Alfalfa feeds (as mentioned in an above post) are great as they help with calcium levels and neutralising the stomach acid. 

There are also herbal things you can feed like marshmallow root, liquorice root, Slippery Elm, but there are so many good ready made supplements now that you are probably best to start with those. 

Be careful with things like worming, giving bute, anything that could upset the stomach balance. Whenever Snip hurt himself (regularly) I put him on Metacam rather than bute, as it was kinder to his stomach.

Also, look into physio....Snip used to hold himself rigid and therefore pull small muscles regularly and was really tight. Bowen and physio really helped with that side of things.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (14 January 2013)

Insurance wouldn't cover the scope anyway as my excess is £350!!

Okay, well I will see if I can get hold of any of the above mentioned products asap and get him on some. I'll ring vets re scoping too.


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## galaxy (14 January 2013)

There is a link between garlic and ulcers so if theres a concern I would cut out the garlic

I know you said you excess is £350, but the scope is for the same problem that you had him looked for last week isn't it?  So if you combine the bills it must be over the excess?


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## Perfect_Pirouette (14 January 2013)

galaxy said:



			There is a link between garlic and ulcers so if theres a concern I would cut out the garlic

I know you said you excess is £350, but the scope is for the same problem that you had him looked for last week isn't it?  So if you combine the bills it must be over the excess?
		
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Haven't had the bill for last week yet and ulcers wearn't investigated on Fri, just his lameness.


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## galaxy (14 January 2013)

SummerxStarsx said:



			Haven't had the bill for last week yet and ulcers wearn't investigated on Fri, just his lameness.
		
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Could you not get your vet to class is as performance issues?  Wasn't his main symptom issues tacking up?  That could be caused by lameness (remembered pain) and ulcers.  I'd have a chat with your vet.  You didn't know he was lame when he was taken in did you?


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## TPO (14 January 2013)

To get my horse scoped was £230-240ish iirc and that was in June of 2012.

He was on a course of GG and since he was already on a fibre diet (as described by others above A-A Oil, speedibeet & linseed). I put him on Feedmarks Ulcercalm for approx 3mths after the GG finished. 

TBH I don't think the ulcers were affecting him and therefore have not noticed a difference. He is an ex-racer so expected to have them but he'd never shown any signs and he was only scoped as vets drew a blank on another issue so she was clutching at straws and didn't do any follow up <roll eyes>.

Worrying the vet that done the scoping was advising feed with cereals and molasses in it (baileys no.6 iirc)...

I feed the same but have stopped the Ulcercalm and use Equine Answers 365 as my GP supplement now along with mint.


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## The Bouncing Bog Trotter (14 January 2013)

A friend who works on one of the big TB studs has used Aloequine in the past for horses with ulcers. He uses it to help horses that are scoped as having ulcers and also as a preventative medication especially prior to sales prep. I just checked out the website and his stud is one of the ones that provided a testimonial.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (14 January 2013)

galaxy said:



			Could you not get your vet to class is as performance issues?  Wasn't his main symptom issues tacking up?  That could be caused by lameness (remembered pain) and ulcers.  I'd have a chat with your vet.  You didn't know he was lame when he was taken in did you?
		
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Yes, trying to get hold of vets now. Nope, didn't know about the lameness. Though it was lunged on a circle on concrete so I don't suppose I would've noticed.


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## wench (14 January 2013)

What is the treatment/further diganosis going to be with the lameness...


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## Perfect_Pirouette (14 January 2013)

wench said:



			What is the treatment/further diganosis going to be with the lameness...
		
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Well bute trial to see whether the lameness is causing the tacking up issues. If not,then think we can safely go down ulcer route. Re lameness, again, trying to get hold of vet now but on Fri I asked whether they would want him in for x rays/ nerve blocks etc and they said no, first route of treatment would be physio and probably lots of pole work and the like to try and strengthen the muscles as apparently he is unlevel behind slightly. He basically doesn't track up as much with that right hind as he does with the left and if you look closely you can see that he hops into the stride a bit on that foot.


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## galaxy (14 January 2013)

SummerxStarsx said:



			Yes, trying to get hold of vets now. Nope, didn't know about the lameness. Though it was lunged on a circle on concrete so I don't suppose I would've noticed.
		
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I definitly think you should be able to get it in under one claim then.  You just need to tell you vet your plan so they fill the form out correctly.


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## wench (14 January 2013)

If it was me I would be wanting nerve blocks/x-rays to see whats going off (if anything).


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## YasandCrystal (14 January 2013)

My horse had suspected ulcers and following an ranitidine (high strength) for 2 days trial he improved marginally, so we had him scoped and he was found to have only a few low grade ulcers. These were treated with a month on GG and turned away.

We and the vet knew immediately though that these low grade ulcers were not bad enough to be causing all his issues and were likely symtomatic of something far worse, so further investigations followed. He was sent to Sue Dyson's lameness clinic where she diagnosed chronic SI dysfunction and we got LOU for him.


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## Holidays_are_coming (14 January 2013)

If u suspect ulcers you really should be using danilon, my vets really were not happy even trying danilon when we needed to try and see if we had a lameness issue, I was only aloud to use it for 2-3 days max at 2 a day.


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## noodle_ (14 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			SS - the symptoms of ulcers are so varied that whatever you do you may not get an indication by changing feed/supplements first. For example my retired horse's only symptom was chipping in at combination fences - and he was already fed an entirely fibre diet and was turned out 24/7 at the time. 

Scoping really isn't expensive and can be done at your yard. It was only about £130ish when I last had it done, which in the grand scheme of horse owning is nothing! 

If you really think it is ulcers, get him scoped asap - the problem is that if it is and you don't sort it, then it can lead to long term issues which take a great deal of time to resolve - it took a long time to get my boy back SJ properly again, I don't think he was ever quite the same horse, and I spent a fortune with a pro rider. If there hadn't been such a delay in diagnosing my horse his performance would never have deteriorated to the point it did.
		
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this really...



since loosing a horse because of this and colic - it would be the first thing i do - scope - for any changes behaviourally etc....


its not that expensive....just the treatmentis.


with all due respect you say you need to sell this horses asap etc - then scope, know what your dealing with and it could be a simple case of ulcers?  so why go the vets and not scope?
just a thought


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## HD15 (14 January 2013)

I'm nearly done with the initial 28 days of GG for mine and he's getting re-scoped Wednesday.  He was very angry at the leg and extremely girthy.  He is much much better now.  

At the moment he is on a balancer, Alfa-a and linseed oil.  There are lots of different oils to choose from, but I've gone for linseed oil because the high omega-3 vs omega-6 (4:1) ratio is anti-inflammatory so helps to reduce the inflammation from the ulcers (and in general).  

When he's done with the GG the vet has recommended either of Relive, Copra, Cool Stance and Ritetrac which I'm still in the process of investigating.  

I'm also feeding him half a scope of Alfa-a 20min before riding.  

Just one point to think about on the insurance.  You might consider keeping the claims separate if they find ulcers.  GG is expensive, something like £30 a day (initial recommended course is 28 days) plus scoping and re-scoping (mine was way more than £130 but I am in Surrey) so if you have other issues that need attention you may reach your claim limit too quickly if the issues are combined.  Anyway you'll know what will work for you.

Good luck!


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## YasandCrystal (14 January 2013)

HD15 said:



			Just one point to think about on the insurance.  You might consider keeping the claims separate if they find ulcers.  GG is expensive, something like £30 a day (initial recommended course is 28 days) plus scoping and re-scoping (mine was way more than £130 but I am in Surrey) so if you have other issues that need attention you may reach your claim limit too quickly if the issues are combined.  Anyway you'll know what will work for you.

Good luck!
		
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Good point. My claims were kept separate. Just over £1100 on the ulcers and then maxed out £5k on the SI dysfunction before getting LOU.


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## Ilovefoals (14 January 2013)

My scope and resulting GG treatment, then re-scope cost nearly £2k so I'd definitley raise a claim with the insurance co and get him scoped.  If he doesn't have ulcers then all well and good, but if he does, the treatment is expensive.


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## ArcticFox (14 January 2013)

Holidays_are_coming said:



			If u suspect ulcers you really should be using danilon, my vets really were not happy even trying danilon when we needed to try and see if we had a lameness issue, I was only aloud to use it for 2-3 days max at 2 a day.
		
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I think there has been discussions as to whether Danilon (suxibuzole) or Bute (Phenylbutazone) are better than the other in the short term.  

i believe that Danilon is better long term but I'm not sure in the short term. Can't find any research on this on my brief search.  Afaik danilon is useful as it is highly palatable. 

If you were using a NSAID and were concerned about ulcers, I think firocoxib may be the NSAID of choice as its a cox 2 inhibitor (so its sparing on cox1, which is the enzyme that is involved in maintaining gut protectant production, blood flow and other useful things - these are enzymes in the arachidonic acid cascade).  most NSAID are cox 2 prefential but still supress cox 1, therefore making it riskier when administering.


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## philamena (14 January 2013)

The latest research I read on Bute vs Danilon suggested they're less confident in Danilon being much better these days... Apparently they'd initially thought it was about the effect the actual substance had while in the stomach, and now they've decided that it's about the effect it has once absorbed into the system and that there isn't as much difference as they thought.  That was only in one place though that I read that and now I can't for the life of me remember where. It was somewhere scientific though (ie a paper) not a random rambling on a forum like I'm doing now (ahem). Anyway, having an ulcery horse I'd investigate this next time I had to make a choice...


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## Holidays_are_coming (14 January 2013)

My mare wont eat bute in any circumstance so I have no choice!!!


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## el_Snowflakes (14 January 2013)

Hi there,

Its funny (not haha funny btw!) but i was thinking of ulcers the other day when you decribed the problems you have been having with your horse. My horse recently underwent a behavioural change (strange angry behaviour in stable) and everything pointed towards ulcers, especially as she had recently had a very upset tummy due to very wet haylage. The vet told me over the phone that she would need to go to the vet school for an endoscopy and explained that the tests would be quite pricey so recommended that I try guastroguard for a week as this is what would be prescribed if ulcers were present. After he priced up the medication he said I would be as well sending her to the vet school as a week of guastroguard was coming in at around £240 (if i remember correctly!) The vet told me to try her in a different stable for 2 weeks to see if her behaviour changed (her stable was next to the haylage and she was very angry that others were helping theirselves to 'her' bale! lol.......about a month and a half on and she is right as rain. It just shows how sometimes we overlook behavioural issues and over worry that it might be something more sinister. 

I wouldnt change your horses feed at the moment as you dont want to have too many variables in the equation. I would get him scoped and get to the root of the problem. Can you claim this on your insurance? Hopefully you get to the bottom of it straight away and its a straight forward fix!


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## Gingerwitch (14 January 2013)

Pay for 3 tubes of gastroguard...... you will know by the end of these if its ulcers - the results are so obvious.


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## philamena (14 January 2013)

Gingerwitch said:



			Pay for 3 tubes of gastroguard...... you will know by the end of these if its ulcers - the results are so obvious.
		
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I genuinely don't think that would be guaranteed - mine certainly wasn't so different within three days (or a week, or two weeks) that I'd have considered that a diagnosis. She'd been scoped, had a month of GG and scoped clear. But there was no sudden 'epiphany' change in behaviour like some people experience...


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## Gingerwitch (14 January 2013)

I have had two horses with ulcers - and I was shocked at the differance within the first few days


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## philamena (14 January 2013)

Gingerwitch said:



			I have had two horses with ulcers - and I was shocked at the differance within the first few days
		
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And that's why we spend all our time obsessing about them - because they're all different! 

Also if there's something else going on to cause some of the signs and symptoms, you may see a change in some symptoms but not others and not know whether that's because those remaining symptoms are caused by ulcers and would go with more gastrogard / treatment, or are something else altogether. If you're prepared to pay a full course of gastrogard then scoping isn't that expensive by comparison. But then almost NOTHING'S expensive compared to a month of gastrogard


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## dressagecrazy (14 January 2013)

FWIW Ranitadine was the only drug available to try to treat ulcers trouble with it is it's rediculous to administer. Lots of Tablets & administered every 12hours or it doesn't work. Due to the administration it's never been considered really effective. 

Omprazole is a god send compared to it once a day administration is all thats needed.
I also agree with being very careful with what NSAID you use if you really believe ulcers are there. One of mine was administered 1/4 tab a day of Previcox when he needed a painkiller. Vet wont let me use Danilon or Bute with him.

I currently use Gastro G from Superfix for mine, my boy had a flair up a few months ago due to a slight change in management. I decided to try Superfix's Gastro G & ive been very happy with the results enough so I'm still using it on a maintenance dose. It's the first time I've been able to not have to use Omprazole.

I also found my boy couldnt cope with Alfa it's reported it is good for Ulcer horses due to the Calcium acting as a buffer. But IMO it creates more problems than it worth, I don't feed it to any of my horses now.


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## philamena (14 January 2013)

dressagecrazy said:



			I also found my boy couldnt cope with Alfa it's reported it is good for Ulcer horses due to the Calcium acting as a buffer. But IMO it creates more problems than it worth, I don't feed it to any of my horses now.
		
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Interesting - how did you uncover that the Alfalfa was causing an issue?


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## dressagecrazy (14 January 2013)

philamena said:



			Interesting - how did you uncover that the Alfalfa was causing an issue?
		
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It was purely by chance tbh I have suffered terribly with this horse. He would scour at nothing & he would be that uncomfortable he would wedge himself up against walls.then as he would feel the burn from the scouring he would trot round the stable to try to get away from the pain.
In later years we found the only way we could stop him going into full blown colicky stress melt down from it was to sedate him. Obviously this is not really a great thing to keep having to do. It was so serious when it started it was not something that could be ignored. Sometimes it would last for days at a time.

By a twist of fate i ended up switching to Pure Feeds which doesn't contain Alfa. I switched as I liked the idea of feeding one feed, I thought It would cut down my time. 
Instead it didn't work that well for all my horses, but we did realise after 3 months of being on this feed that my ulcer boy hadn't had any scouring or colicky behaviour. It was at this point I made the link to him being intolerant to Alfa, all his feed prior to this point had always been forage based using Alfa.

 I don't feed Pure Feeds anymore but I am thankful I tried it as I would of never of made the link or thought Alfa was causing him such problems. I had so many long conversations with the vets & none of us ever thought his diet was contributing as he was on the perfect on paper Ulcer friendly diet.

He's been off Alfa now for 2 years or so & we haven't had a single vet call out to him since he's so stable it's wonderful *touches wood lol*.

When he has had a slight Ulcer flare & it is slight,Ive notice it through his performance rarther than anything untoward now. Within a week of being on Superfix it's sorted.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (15 January 2013)

Okay, so after having a think last night I think I am just going to bite the bullet and get him scoped.

I HAVE SOME Q'S IF ANYONE CAN HELP ME PLEASE.

1.Can I make 2 seperate claims to my insurance company if needed? One for lameness and one for scoping/GG if needed? 

2.Treatment for lameness recommended by vets at the moment is just physio and pole work, will insurance pay out for physio if he has to have lots?

3. Would I be able to ring my insurance company and try and get my excess down if I bump my monthly premium up a bit do you think? Or will they smell a rat and say I can't or can't make a claim for weeks and weeks after doing so? I need to ring them but I have about 5000 calls to make at the moment and I only get half an hour lunch!

4. If I claim through my insurance for ulcers, when I sell him, will new owners be able to claim on their insurance for ulcers or will it be void?

Any help on the above would be appreciated until I can get to speak to insurance co/vets.

Thanks


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## tibby (15 January 2013)

As the " nervous " previous owner of said orange horse, when I owned him he had ad lib soaked hay and  two feeds a day of Mollichaff Calmer, which is a high fibre feed, I fed no short feed, I added garlic and Equine America Glucosamine, and Naf Liquid Pro Feet, and grated carrots. He was slightly cold backed more so in winter, I rode him in a GP saddle with a conventional girth he was fine to tack up. Orange horse has had four changes of yard in a year, College, Farm, posters home and now busy livery yard, I would not be surprised if he has ulcers due to excess acid in his gut due to stress. I apoligise for the rant but am fed up of being portraid as ignorant and incompetant I am in my early fifties I have ridden since I was three, and owned horses for 35 years. I owned orange horse for six years and never really got on with him to ride, to handle he was a dream. Due to my personal circumstances I considerred pts as I did not want him passed from pillar to post, I am beginning to regret my decision after reading previou sposts on here!! Sorry.


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## ester (15 January 2013)

My answers would be 

1) yes
2)yes

3) I'd be surprised if they let you do this, 

4)If he has ulcers it will make no difference if they were claimed for on the insurance they will still be excluded as a pre existing condition (and potentially other gut stuff too)


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## whizzer (15 January 2013)

The lameness & scoping for ulcers are 2 different conditions so yes will be 2 different claims. Not sure about insurance company paying for physio.             You could try ringing insurance company about point 3 but tbh I've not heard of anyone doing that & I don't think they'll go for it. If you sell the horse new owners won't be able to insure for ulcers,the insurance companies would regard that as fraud I'm afraid.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (15 January 2013)

tibby said:



			As the " nervous " previous owner of said orange horse, when I owned him he had ad lib soaked hay and  two feeds a day of Mollichaff Calmer, which is a high fibre feed, I fed no short feed, I added garlic and Equine America Glucosamine, and Naf Liquid Pro Feet, and grated carrots. He was slightly cold backed more so in winter, I rode him in a GP saddle with a conventional girth he was fine to tack up. Orange horse has had four changes of yard in a year, College, Farm, posters home and now busy livery yard, I would not be surprised if he has ulcers due to excess acid in his gut due to stress. I apoligise for the rant but am fed up of being portraid as ignorant and incompetant I am in my early fifties I have ridden since I was three, and owned horses for 35 years. I owned orange horse for six years and never really got on with him to ride, to handle he was a dream. Due to my personal circumstances I considerred pts as I did not want him passed from pillar to post, I am beginning to regret my decision after reading previou sposts on here!! Sorry.
		
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Replied to you privately.


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## wench (15 January 2013)

Has the vet said what they think is causing the lameness? Or is it to keep costs down that you are trying the physio route first?


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## Puppy (15 January 2013)

It is incredibly common for a horse to develop a sore back, secondary to hind limb lameness. My horse developed PSD behind and as a result suffered ligament damage to her back which caused a very adverse reaction to being saddled. The back problem was resolved with a few sessions of shockwave treatment. If I were you I would bear this in mind before you become completely convinced about ulcers. 

I do feel sorry for the old owner. Hope this isn't too distressing for you, Tibby.


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## wench (15 January 2013)

Puppy said:



			It is incredibly common for a horse to develop a sore back, secondary to hind limb lameness. My horse developed PSD behind and as a result suffered ligament damage to her back which caused a very adverse reaction to being saddled. The back problem was resolved with a few sessions of shockwave treatment. If I were you I would bear this in mind before you become completely convinced about ulcers.
		
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This I'm afraid. Hence why I have asked what the vet has diagonosed. After my own experiences with lame/not right horses, you end up saving money in the long term by biting the bullet, and getting the vet out, and paying for the x-rays/nerve blocks required.


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## Delicious_D (15 January 2013)

SummerxStarsx said:



			Okay, so after having a think last night I think I am just going to bite the bullet and get him scoped.

I HAVE SOME Q'S IF ANYONE CAN HELP ME PLEASE.
		
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1.Can I make 2 seperate claims to my insurance company if needed? One for lameness and one for scoping/GG if needed?  -*You wil need to ask your insurance compnay and vet this, it depends if the vet thinks the two are connected.*

2.Treatment for lameness recommended by vets at the moment is just physio and pole work, will insurance pay out for physio if he has to have lots? *Again, you need to ask your insurance as it depends what is covered. *

3. Would I be able to ring my insurance company and try and get my excess down if I bump my monthly premium up a bit do you think? Or will they smell a rat and say I can't or can't make a claim for weeks and weeks after doing so? I need to ring them but I have about 5000 calls to make at the moment and I only get half an hour lunch! *This is fraud really. You vet would need to provide a report to the insurance company and on it will be the date of your cal out when ulcers were first suspected. If your policy started after this date your insurance will probably be void for not declaring it.*

4. If I claim through my insurance for ulcers, when I sell him, will new owners be able to claim on their insurance for ulcers or will it be void? *It will be deemed a pre-existing condition...unless you dont tell them which would be highly immoral.*


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## BlackVelvet (15 January 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			1.Can I make 2 seperate claims to my insurance company if needed? One for lameness and one for scoping/GG if needed?  -*You wil need to ask your insurance compnay and vet this, it depends if the vet thinks the two are connected.*

2.Treatment for lameness recommended by vets at the moment is just physio and pole work, will insurance pay out for physio if he has to have lots? *Again, you need to ask your insurance as it depends what is covered. *

3. Would I be able to ring my insurance company and try and get my excess down if I bump my monthly premium up a bit do you think? Or will they smell a rat and say I can't or can't make a claim for weeks and weeks after doing so? I need to ring them but I have about 5000 calls to make at the moment and I only get half an hour lunch! *This is fraud really. You vet would need to provide a report to the insurance company and on it will be the date of your cal out when ulcers were first suspected. If your policy started after this date your insurance will probably be void for not declaring it.*

4. If I claim through my insurance for ulcers, when I sell him, will new owners be able to claim on their insurance for ulcers or will it be void? *It will be deemed a pre-existing condition...unless you dont tell them which would be highly immoral.*

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Pretty much this. If you choose to have him scoped then this will be on the vet history anyway,and if the ulcers bother him years down the line then the insurance are unlikely to pay out. Maybe phone your insurers and ask what would be best to do.


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## ArcticFox (15 January 2013)

Although some insurance companies will remove exclusions if so many years have passed with no problems (think its around 4 years)

not sure though


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## Delicious_D (15 January 2013)

Im with KBIS and i *think* ours is two years...i would have to double check mind you.


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