# Homozygous with homozygous?



## Andyy123 (19 February 2011)

I was wondering what would you get if you bred say a homozygous black leopard spot appaloosa stallion with a homozygous grey mare????

Also, i really want to breed an appaloosa foal so was wondering what is the best colour mare to breed with an appaloosa stallion to give the highest possibility of having an appaloosa foal?? many thanks


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## Kallibear (19 February 2011)

I think the grey gene, and the coloured gene are totally separete so don't cancel each other out, so you'd get an spotte foal that would grey out to white.

If the stallion is homozygous spotted than you'll get a spotted foal regardless of the mare colour. The question is what base colour you want. In thoery ( but I'm not entirely sure if it's works like that) if you put a homozygous coloured mare to the stallion you would get a patchy spotty foal  (which you can then sell to me as I'd love one )


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## JoBird (19 February 2011)

I am looking to breed appaloosas this year so have been looking into it.  All I can say is PLEASE dont use the grey as greys have the "fade" gene so the spots will fade in time and it is really discouraged by appaloosa societies for that reason. Other than that, I believe any colour is fine.  For example I am putting an appaloosa mare to an appaloosa stallion in the hope of getting a pure appaloosa and maybe a few spot (good for future breeding) and my other mare is a bay/brown TB going to the same appaloosa stallion in the hope of maybe getting a blanket or something but 50% chance of something (except if I used the homozygous stallion!).  
If your stallion is homozygous I believe you will be guaranteed some spotting characteristics whatever you put it to but remember not to use the grey or however beautiful it looks as a foal it will loose its spots later and fade out to grey.
Please keep in touch I would love to follow your progress along with my own. x


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## Andyy123 (19 February 2011)

Thankyou both for your answers. I was thinking of using Palousa SAN Sebastian (google him) a beautiful leopard spot stallion but not sure whether he is homozygous or not. I don't have a ton of money so need to get it right first time if i want an appaloosa foal. I'm currently looking for broodmares at the mo. I will keep you all posted!


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## GinnieRedwings (19 February 2011)

If that stallion is leopard spotted, he will not be homozygous. Interestingly enough, horses that are homozygous for spots don't have any... They are known as "fewspots" and look almost white with pink skin (I believe that because they have 2 copies of the spotty gene, they cancel each other out), but breeding from a Fewspot is your only certainty of a spotty foal. 

A leopard spotted stallion will pass on either the spotty gene, or not! For statistics on what you can expect from various colour combinations, there is a website:
http://www.horsetesting.com/CCalculator1.asp
If nothing else, it's fun!

KarynK on here breeds spotties and knows everything there is to know about colour genetics...


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## Jackpotsstud (19 February 2011)

I don't think Palousa San Sebastian is Homozygous.  As said above homozygous stallions or mares don't show the spots but are white born (can be confused with grey) or few spot.

Below is a photo of our homozygous white born mare, who although has no spots garuntees 99% of the time spotting characteristics to her foals.  







If you breed a white born stallion to a grey mare and that mare passes her grey gene on you will end up with a foal who is born spotty and over time, it's spots will fade and the horse will appear grey.  The base colour of your mare and stallion will determine the colour of the spots that your foal has!  The spotty  gene is so complicated and there are so many different expressions of it that it is not easy to guess what you are going to get, even with 2 spotty parents!


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## Andyy123 (19 February 2011)

Thankyou both, but Ginnie i have tried that colour calculator to determine a fial colouring but what do you put as the sire's colour? because there is no option for black leopard spot??? thankyou


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## Jackpotsstud (19 February 2011)

Most of the colour calculators that I have come across don't have the option for spotted colours!!

Roughly speaking, using a heterozygous leopard spotted stallion with a solid coloured mare (ie not spotty or piebald/skewbald or grey) you are looking at a 50% chance of having a spotty foal.


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## eventrider23 (19 February 2011)

Grey is essentially a dilutant and thus a 'non colour' thus if you put anything homozygous to a homozygous grey, the resulting offspring may well come out spotted/coloured/whatever sire was homozygous for but will ultimately fade out to grey as the grey is more domininant.


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## KarynK (19 February 2011)

If a mare is homozygous for grey all her foals will be grey and all will fade to white, so quite frankly is is pointless using a homozygous grey when breeding specifically for any colour.

Leopards can be homozygous for leopard but will not always throw pattern when using solid mares.  Unfortunately there is not an all encompassing spotted gene there are several along with genes that determine pattern and extension of white and the varnish gene which also turns solid coat colour through roanish eventually to near white.  There are some pictures of this process on my profile album.

I never use the word Homozygous with appaloosas as the genes are not identified and there is no test to prove the genes themselves or even if they are available in homozygous form.  I know of true fewspots that throw solids and horses with just mottled skin,  my own mare threw just Varnish, that foal was the result of the breeding of two supposedly homozygous individuals, she was born solid coated and though she has varnished out very rapidly from 2-3 years she has no spots at all and I suspect she did not inherit the spotted gene only  her mothers varnish, her father does not have this effect.

I have also come across solid horses that have somehow managed to throw appaloosa foals, there is an owner of such a mare on this forum!

Basically there is no guarantee of what coat pattern you will get, the extent of that pattern and what if any actual spots you will get, but if the mare is homozygous for the grey gene the effect will not last for long.

When breeding appaloosas you need to research thoroughly and you have started that process, but as with any breeding you should pick a stallion that compliments your mare and is a sound performer before you think about their colour.  Appaloosas are not subjected to grading (apart from Knabstruppers of course) and can very much vary in type and ability, so you need to scrutinise potential mates carefully with what you want in mind.  

You should also make yourself familiar with registration requirements for the societies before breeding as some exclude grey and there are different stud book entry requirements for each that will make a foal either a main register entry or a part bred and in some cases ineligible.  I would also look at the stallion licensing requirements and make sure that the stallion you use has met those and is currently licenced before you breed.


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## Andyy123 (19 February 2011)

Thankyou very much, it really is a guessing game isn't it lol.
I will try a fewspot stallion with a bay mare. I'll let you all know


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## JoBird (19 February 2011)

Fewspot stallion with bay mare sounds your best option.  Ooh it will be exciting and you are taking less of a gamble than I am by using a heterozygous leopard stallion - but then I do like the occasional gamble!!


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## Endrete (19 February 2011)

I had a bay TB mare with a few spot stallion and had this;







She is three in April and very sadly for sale due to the break up of a business partnership.

The stallion is stunning and I would definately use him again.  Its a shame that he isnt doing AI at the moment as I have a mare i would love to put him to.

http://www.thegallopsstud.co.uk/#/mikker/4537492159


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## Andyy123 (20 February 2011)

that is a beautiful foal! thats what i want!! how high will it grow to roughly? and how much do you want for it? (sorry for calling it 'it' as don't know whether its a boy or girl.)  I was thinking of maybe going to Pictus stud or Tresaison stud ????


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## Hollywood (20 February 2011)

Andyy123 said:



			that is a beautiful foal! thats what i want!! how high will it grow to roughly? and how much do you want for it? (sorry for calling it 'it' as don't know whether its a boy or girl.)  I was thinking of maybe going to Pictus stud or Tresaison stud ????
		
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Its worth having a look at the Tresaison Stud - Lesley has some lovely young stock for sale and stands the stallion Nobody's Harlequin which is a Knabstrupper - he is homozygous few spot and has a fantastic temperement and stunning paces - I have Tresaison Hollywood a bay leopard spot 2 yo filly she is stunning and very intelligent - if you want to breed something with quality and height this is the stallion.


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## Andyy123 (20 February 2011)

I really like the look of Tresaison Temptress but POA makes it sound as though my pocket is not deep enough :/ lol


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## eventrider23 (20 February 2011)

Would second Nobody's Harelquin as the stock I have seen by him have been very nice!


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## QUICKFIRE (20 February 2011)

Andyy123, If you haven't yet got a broodmare, and not got a pot of money as you have stated, Why do you want to breed somthing that may or may not be what you want at the end of the day? You would be looking at least a 6 yr time frame before you could be working said foal!!!! would it not be wiser and cheeper to go out and buy what you want???   There is a saying      "fools breed horses, for wise men to buy!!!


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## JoBird (20 February 2011)

Dont worry Andy - yes I agree "fools breed horses for wise men to buy" having just sold my fantastically bred sporthorse filly at 3yrs for only £900 and I know she will be an amazing show jumper.  I have hopefully managed to keep a 10% share in her (will know if they have signed the agreement when they collect her on saturday). The stud fee and cost of care do not add up to profit, nearly always a loss! 
However, if you want to breed, GO FOR IT!  It is a fabulous exciting thing to do and, like you, I am going for appaloosas this year.  
Some people want to breed babies but at least with a horse you can sell it if it doesnt turn out to be your cup of tea!!!
That is not to say people should breed indescriminantly but you obviously are doing your homework and just because you are on a limited budget you can still get fabulous stock.  My broodmare is fantastically bred by Alflora (plus she is amazing to ride - I rode her up until 10 days before she gave birth last time!) and I got her unseen (not even a photo) from Wales for £700.  She actually came from Tresaison stud (but I believe normally their horses are expensive) it was just she was an ex-racer and in poor condition. 
Anyway, who knows we may both breed something fabulous ourselves so dont be put off!


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## Andyy123 (20 February 2011)

I also agree with the saying but i am breeding a horse for my own use. I do not intend to sell the foal at all. Basically last year i was supposed to be buying an absolutely beautiful 16.3hh black leopard spot appaloosa gelding, i fell in love with the idea of owning a blakc leopard spot but the sale fell through, she messed me around and tried to run off with my deposit!!! so since then i have had two horses, a coloured and now i have a grey gelding, but i have decided that i will not be satisfied until i have a spotty horse!! and seeing as they are very expensive to buy i think breeding one would be the best way to go about it. I live on a farm with 550 acres of grazing land so space and feed will be very low cost. I have a stable and my dad grows wheat so we have hundreds of bales of straw so bedding is free and livery obvs.


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## LazyS (21 February 2011)

"Animal Genetics will soon be offering new assays for Appaloosa horses:

1) DNA test for spotted coat pattern commonly referred to as "leopard-complex".  This assay will determine if the horse carries the LP mutation and is homozygous or heterozygous for the Appaloosa coat pattern."

I have been trying to find out a little more about this, for our breed society newsletter but not getting very far - but worth your while looking at the 'Appaloosa Project' - Google it.

Animal Genetics also test for the various base colours for example I have an American few-spot who is bay base coated (Aa Ee) he carries chestnut also - see the foal in KarynK's signature.


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## magic104 (21 February 2011)

Andyy123 said:



			I also agree with the saying but i am breeding a horse for my own use. I do not intend to sell the foal at all. Basically last year i was supposed to be buying an absolutely beautiful 16.3hh black leopard spot appaloosa gelding, i fell in love with the idea of owning a blakc leopard spot but the sale fell through, she messed me around and tried to run off with my deposit!!! so since then i have had two horses, a coloured and now i have a grey gelding, but i have decided that i will not be satisfied until i have a spotty horse!! and seeing as they are very expensive to buy i think breeding one would be the best way to go about it. I live on a farm with 550 acres of grazing land so space and feed will be very low cost. I have a stable and my dad grows wheat so we have hundreds of bales of straw so bedding is free and livery obvs.
		
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In your circumstances I would buy, not breed.  It is too much of a gamble to get what you want & you spoke of having to sell a 4yo before you could look at making a purchase.  You have said about getting a TB mare from the sales, why not get one on loan, if this is a one off?  I am sure you could find a decent foal at a price that is well below what it would cost to breed.  If you cant save that sort of money in 11 months incl your stud fee & vet bills, then you really should be thinking twice about breeding one.  There is a big buzz with breeding, but there is also a lot of disapointment.


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## LazyS (21 February 2011)

"Animal Genetics also test for the various base colours for example I have an American few-spot who is bay base coated (Aa Ee) he carries chestnut also - see the foal in KarynK's signature. "

Oh dear - DON'T see the foal in KK's sig - its been changed - might have guessed  
Here is another of his offspring. The bay and the pattern has come out from a lovely solid mare (she was also Aa Ee) and we knew that they would produce something spectacular.


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## KarynK (21 February 2011)

If someone wants to promote a stallion on the forum by using their photos then that is fine by me, but as you well know I go out of my way not to use this forum to promote my own horses, it would be really nice if you would respect that decision on my part and refrain from involving me.  

Many thanks

Karyn


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## hstuke (5 November 2012)

Interesting to read all this.  I am the owner from PALOUSA SAN SEBASTIAN.  I bought him as a foal, he is graded with British Warmblood (graded amongst solid coloured stallions), he was Champion of his group that year, currently he is showjumping at 1.20/1.30m and has won and placed 2nd at that level.  His sire is San Remo (son of Wolkentanz/Weltmeyer, out of a dam by Volturno, who was twice silver medalist Olympic Games Eventing and twice German champion eventing), his dam was 5x in a row best mare with Dutch appaloosa, her sire is GRIBALDI, currently 3rd in the Worldranking dressage sires. Love to hear any comments or welcome to join his group on Facebook


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## hstuke (5 November 2012)

Andyy123 said:



			Thankyou both for your answers. I was thinking of using Palousa SAN Sebastian (google him) a beautiful leopard spot stallion but not sure whether he is homozygous or not. I don't have a ton of money so need to get it right first time if i want an appaloosa foal. I'm currently looking for broodmares at the mo. I will keep you all posted! 

Click to expand...

YOU ARE MOST WELCOME TO JOIN HIS GROUP ON FACEBOOK.  I AM THE OWNER OF PALOUSA SAN SEBASTIAN


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## s4sugar (5 November 2012)

Please reconsider breeding as the only criterion you have set is that you want spots - not an appaloosa as the stallion suggested above is a sportshorse and you would have difficulty registering a foal in an appaloosa registry.
It costs as much to put cheap mare in foal as a good mare.

Try messaging Whirlwind horses I'd be very surprised if she couldn't direct you towards a nice spotty.


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## jisrbazun (7 November 2012)

Go on to whirlwindhorses.co.uk, she breeds appaloosas and has a lovely few spot stallion and has super foals from him. She is based in shropshire and currently has some foals and broodmares for sale.


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