# Akita bitch attacking my other dogs and biting me?



## Dudleydoodlebug (21 August 2013)

My 2.5year old akita bitch who i have owned since she was just under a year old has attacked my older akita bitch, who i have owned for the same amount of time, approx 2 years, 3 times seriously since january. Major vet bills and both of them needing stitching back together. 
Yesterday, she attacked my little whippet bitch for absolutely no reason, completely unprovoked and as you can imagine my whippet is completely submissive. I appreciate the older akita being a threat to her dominance but the whippet - no threat at all. 
She has also started putting her teeth on me when she doesnt want to do something. If she doesnt want to come in and i try and lead her by her collar she has no problems turning round and putting her mouth on my arm, i guess to try and warn me off. This seems to be occuring more frequently now.

What do i do with her? She cannot go out with the other dogs and im very lucky that she didnt kill my whippet yesterday. Thoughts are that it is unwise toi rehome her with this obvious dominant issue. So people have made noises about having her PTS. 
My other akitas know their place they submit when they are told off and bow down or roll on their back but this girl just sits and looks at you wagging her tail, looking very cocky. Like the discipline doesnt even register on her radar.

Opinions please, my partner wont allow his children out with her now, which is understandable but i feel very harsh having her PTS???


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## bonny (21 August 2013)

It would be completely reasonable to have her PTS and completely unreasonable to keep going the way you are.....


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## Elsbells (21 August 2013)

It sounds as if you know what you have to do but you need support.

You know she's a high risk to humans and other animals and its just a matter of time until she does kill. I love my Dobermanns but they have to be safe and obedient. It's one thing for a toy breed to nip and bite, they get away with it but a big guarding breed never!


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## CorvusCorax (21 August 2013)

OK, typed out a big reply but appreciate this is an internet forum and I will get flamed for some of my suggestions. 'Dominance' is a tricky subject so I don't even want to go there. 'Discipline' and 'telling off' can mean many things.

'Harsh' is not putting to sleep an aggressive, unpredictable, uncontrollable dog who has hurt your other dogs and is on the way to hurting you, badly.

First of all I would ask the vet for a battery of tests to rule out a physical cause.

Then I would ask myself, am I prepared to change my entire management of this dog, to close down all her options, to watch her every movement, to keep her under the tightest control and only let her fart when I say so, to potentially have a real 'come to Jesus' meeting with her, and am I prepared for the fact that I might get hurt in the process? If not, and if you don't think it is worth it I'd say PTS. Especially if there are children involved.

If you want to persevere, get a trainer or behaviourist with a good working knowledge of aggressive dogs.

Bear in mind, after four attacks on your dogs, by a big strong bitch of a breed not inclined to give warnings before they act, and several moves on you, without you mentioning any consequence, you may have reinforced that she is in the right.
If she lays teeth on you and you stop doing what you are doing, as long as it is reasonable, then she has learned that laying teeth on you gets her what she wants. If you respond using conflict or emotion, you may also make the situation worse and she may think she was right to warn you off.

If she has attacked four times and there has been no immediate function or consequence, she has learned that attacking is acceptable.

Please attach a small hand line/end of an old lead to her collar in the meantime so you can handle her without getting your hand so close to the danger zone.


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## Dudleydoodlebug (21 August 2013)

Thank you so much for your replies, yes I do need support!  Its a terrible job, having a healthy looking dog PTS, which makes it much harder. Very sad situation. x Thanks again guys much appreciated.


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## bonny (21 August 2013)

I'm sorry but it would be far worse if she killed your other dog and it sounds like she will or even attacked a child. I've known an aggressive Akita bitch who ended up being shot at a distance as not even the owner could get close.....it's not worth it.


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## CorvusCorax (21 August 2013)

If you don't 'like' her or are scared of her, she will pick this up.

'Healthy' doesn't just cover physical. A dog that is constantly in attack more or on guard, to me, is not stable or happy in the head. It could be mental, it could be physical, it could be genetic, it could be environmental, it could be all of those things.

As a human, having to be on guard all the time to ensure she does not attack, does not make us happy in the head and impacts on our relationship with the dog.


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## Goldenstar (21 August 2013)

A hard place to be , but with children in the house I really think you have choice .


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## Dudleydoodlebug (21 August 2013)

Cavecanem, you are very right, having to constantly be on watch for this dog does not make for a happy household. Very stressful. Even having to give the dogs shifts outside so they can have time out is stressful. I understand that healthy covers a multitude of things as you say and some issues we cant see. I think I've no choice........


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## CorvusCorax (21 August 2013)

...and if you are stressed, she will be stressed and more likely to be on the edge, your other dogs will be stressed....I don't mean to labour the point but you get what I mean.


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## ladyt25 (21 August 2013)

Unless you can rehome her (maybe via or with assistance from a breed rescue) to someone very knowledgeable when it comes to these dogs and dealing with aggressive behaviour, or you're prepared to get someone in to help you, I think sadly you have very few options. Not being able to trust a dog, especially one of this power and size, is no fun for you or the dog. An ex of mine had to make the decision to pts his akita many years back as she went the same yet he knows it was his fault for not establishing clear ground rules and essentially mollycoddling her. The final straw was she went to attack a small child. That's when he realised what a time bomb he had. Not a nice decision to have to make but these big dogs can do so much damage. So sorry you are in this position :-(


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## Alec Swan (22 August 2013)

As the dog has the better of you,  and as it sounds as if,  for you anyway,  that position is irreversible,  I'd strongly recommend the humane destruction of the dog,  and before you or one of your other animals is badly injured.

Such breeds were never bred for,  nor intended to be pets,  so I'm still at a loss as to why those with limited or even no experience,  want to take on what those with a rough idea of what they're doing,  wont touch.  I'm sorry OP,  I'm not having a dig at you,  but why such breeds hold such attractions for those with limited or nonexistent abilities,  remains a mystery.

Alec.


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## ThoroughbredStar (22 August 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			As the dog has the better of you,  and as it sounds as if,  for you anyway,  that position is irreversible,  I'd strongly recommend the humane destruction of the dog,  and before you or one of your other animals is badly injured.

Such breeds were never bred for,  nor intended to be pets,  so I'm still at a loss as to why those with limited or even no experience,  want to take on what those with a rough idea of what they're doing,  wont touch.  I'm sorry OP,  I'm not having a dig at you,  but why such breeds hold such attractions for those with limited or nonexistent abilities,  remains a mystery.

Alec.
		
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I agree completely Alec- this breed should be on the dangerous dog register imho. Not one that I have ever come across has been straight forward or without a vicious/dangerous tendancies. 

We unfortunately have one in our family- a rescue as a tiny pup from the RSPCA as a group of them were dumped on xmas eve few yrs back. He's turned out to be quite large and I knew from his behaviour and physical attributes he had part Akita in him. DNA tested earlier this yr and yes he is mainly Akita x with staff- who would honestly breed these two breeds together............

He is not trust worthy with other dogs and small children. 

I would strongly recommend anyone against having this breed especially if it had behavioural issues.

I really feel for you OP as it is a horrid decision, one I have also made in the past. A rescue bitch I once had mauled my JRT to death and she showed signs of aggression after that to others so I had her PTS.I don't regret it one bit.


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## Dobiegirl (22 August 2013)

They are stunningly beautiful and thats their downfall, a lot have been bred with no consideration for temperment and have soon landed in trouble. They are impossible to read and in my opinion very serious dogs who should only be owned by experienced people. Cayla on here owns one and that dog is lovely but Im sure Cayla would tell you they are a breed apart which should not be owned by anyone other than serious dedicated experienced people.

OPI feel for you, Ive never owned a dog like that but if I did it would be pts, no shame in that, just being realistic and I think any rescue would not be interested in this dog either. I hope your Whippet recovers well  and stays safe.


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## Dudleydoodlebug (22 August 2013)

I thank you all for your replies. It's lovely to have so much support. 
My thinking is that I will be having her pts only for acting out typical akita traits and is this fair? Do please tell me I'm crazy if you think I am being!
Nearly Everyone I speak with and on the forum says pts but the akita people say different and that she is just being an akita and needs managing differently? Who is right and should I just make efforts to rehome with full history known? 
Aaarrrrggghhh this is horrible " pulling hair out"


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## Buds_mum (22 August 2013)

Just wanted to say I really feel for you. 
A year ago I had to make the decision to put to sleep my rescue cocker. Had him for just a year.

He was utterly beautiful, black big working cocker. He was also a resource guarder and due to previous treatment to try and rectify his behavior he gave no warning before he bit, he gave what a behaviorist described as a level 4 bite? He bit down, he hung on and he didn't let go. He bit my step dad like this because he reached down to itch his own ankle, the dog was lying at his feet and my step dad inadvertently penetrated the dogs space, 9 stitches that caused.

He bit my mum, taking off the end of her finger, she was drying him after his morning walk, she had done this countless times. 

He bit every member of the household, all for misdemeanors which we could not forsee. He had a dedicated behaviorist who could do nothing for him. I spent thousands on this dog because between times of the aggression he was a fun loving, brilliant and intelligent dog who adored life and thrived on his walks and training. 

Putting him to sleep was heart wrenching and unbearable (the one consolation may of been the mauled arm I recieved muzzleing him for the vet). He did not go quietly and he fought, and the look in his eyes was heart breaking. When he finally went to sleep I took of his muzzle and stroked him for the first ever time, he was laying so peacefully and it was then I realised that for a year I had been forcing my entire family to tread eggshells around a dog who didn't even want to be stroked. 
an incredibly difficult experience but I do not feel guilty, I tried, I failed and then did the right thing for the dog.

A happy family pet does not fight with its family. A dog that does this is miserable and so are the people around it.

Just to add I looked extensively into rehoming with the help of vets, specialist cocker rescues and my behaviourist but due to the dogs 'bite history' no one could/would take him on. In retrospect it wouldn't of been fair to send him elsewhere as he wasn't 'fixable' but you do feel better knowing you have looked into it.


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## Alec Swan (22 August 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			They are stunningly beautiful and thats their downfall, a lot have been bred with no consideration for temperment and have soon landed in trouble. 

They are impossible to read and in my opinion very serious dogs who should only be owned by experienced people. 

........
		
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Stunningly beautiful has never been grounds for owning any animal.

Breeding for temperament in an established and generally amenable breed,  is one thing,  but there can't even be lip service to the question of temperament,  when we're discussing breeds where no thought,  for the last 100+ years has been paid to that particular breed and its likely temperament,  and expecting it to fit in with our western World,  or families,  or children,  or other dogs.

Then we get to your second,  and accurate paragraph,  and I suppose that they may just as well be unreadable,  as the bulk of the owners wouldn't recognise what was going on in the head of a spaniel,  far less such a creature.  Akitas have the potential (to the point of _Likelihood_) that they will be difficult at best,  and bloody dangerous at worst.  

Alec.


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## Dudleydoodlebug (22 August 2013)

Alec, I am really interested in your views, you seem very knowledgeable regarding this. 
Can I please have you views on my more recent response, slightly above? X


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## Elsbells (22 August 2013)

I took in my sisters Dobermann bitch. She was stunningly beautiful and loving, but she was also totally unpredictable. I now think it was her sight and that she must of been almost blind as she was insecure and nervous outside of our home and I'm sure that she saw shapes and didn't recognise people she'd already met and liked as she would suddenly turn and bite as if surprised at their arrival.

We tried everything. We are very experienced and confident but this bitch was different and I just couldn't put a handle on her. Ultimately I squared myself up, took the decision and was with her gazeing into her eyes and muzzled face as three vets administer the injection that released her from all that fear and pain. 

My only sadness is that I couldn't help her and that although she was the gentlest and sweetest girl at home with us,  she was dangerous. I feel saddened that other people didn't get to see her as we did and I will always feel her loss and will never forget her. I'm crying now as I write this, even so, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that I did the only right and proper thing I could do, both for us her family and more importantly her.

RIP Daisy. We will always miss and love you x


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## Alec Swan (22 August 2013)

Dudleydoodlebug said:



			.......

My thinking is that I will be having her pts only for acting out typical akita traits and is this fair? Do please tell me I'm crazy if you think I am being!

....... but the akita people say different and that she is just being an akita and needs managing differently? .......

Aaarrrrggghhh this is horrible " pulling hair out"
		
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Few on here are so flattering,  so I'm going to take your post as it's written,  and assume that you actually want a reply! 

Right;  Para 1.  Yes,  sadly you will be doing just that,  but it's nothing to be ashamed of.  If you,  next time you acquire an unsuitable dog,  acquire it without research,  then that will be your fault!  Blunt perhaps,  but there's no intention to be rude.

Para 2.  "The Akita People"?  Really?  She does need managing differently,  but as she's now at the stage of having put you in your place,  I suspect that you've missed the boat.  If these experts want her,  excellent,  let them have her,  it'll save you the trouble and the cost of her disposal.  When she's been "managed properly",  what will you have at the end of it?  A bolshy,  strong,  opinionated creature which will probably challenge your sanity every day,  for the rest of its life.

Breeds like Akitas,  and there are others (often those dogs which come from the frozen north),  lived existences where they were never truly domesticated.  They were tools to be used,  and there was little in the way of attachment between man and dog,  in a way that could be called a relationship.  I know that Blackcob and others will now have a purple fit,  but the truth is that _their_ dogs,  and perhaps the parents of those dogs have had a great deal of input from those who use them for a sport.  As a breed,  and as a household pet,  such dogs come with a myriad of problems,  and they're generally beyond the wit of Joe Public.

I'll probably be shot now!

They are handsome animals,  I'll grant you that,  but in my less than modest way,  I used to quite fancy myself as a dogman.  Never would I have wanted one,  ever!

Don't feel guilty,  put the dog down now,  whilst you have a choice,  and before she does serious damage to another living creature,  and you have no choice.

Was that what you wanted?  Sorry if it wasn't.

Alec.


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## CAYLA (22 August 2013)

It is true, this breed is not for the inexperienced and the traits she is showing (can be typical the bred) they are by nature dominant but they don't have a tendancy to just (bite their owner out of the blue) they actually form a strong family bond and its unfamiliar people they are aloof with, but with dogs they are renound for their dominant streak, I love the breed (and will probably always own them) but I appreciate what they stand for and the fact they need a confident and experienced hand and they are certainly not for those who admire from afar then buy the next day) we have recently rehomed a few through our rescue over the years and 3 in the last few months (as not even the breed rescue had space) and the issue is not the work we put into them or the offers of homes but (where we place them) they are like no other breed I have ever trained/worked with and one which I would never recommend as a family pet. Mine is a model citizen (but she was not always) and at 50kg she learned the rules **** hot and is happy in a large pack (but was not always). 
I would have some tests done on her if the behaviour has suddenly arose, such as thyroid for sure and ruling out neurological issues and pain related issues (hips) esp. I would obs say (dont pass her on) and do what needs to be done feel free t PM me with more detail if you need to chat.


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## Dudleydoodlebug (22 August 2013)

Thank you Alec, yes just what I wanted. I guess even if she is displaying 'typical' akita traits, these still aren't desirable in any breed. Someone did day to me that if it were a Labrador carrying out these behaviours we wouldn't need to think twice the dog would be pts ASAP. I guess excuses shouldn't be made to keep an aggressive dog around. 
I won't carry on in this situation and I have had a Look at the rehoming option and thre are hundreds throughout the uk looking for homes, so what chance does my one have?  I don't mean to sound soppy but I am devastated that my whippet, who is my doggie soul mate, has had to suffer at the hands of my other dog.  obviously the universe was shining down on her otherwise I'm not sure she would still be here. X


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## ladyt25 (22 August 2013)

Personally I do not find these dogs attractive at all so I don't see why people want them but, each to their own I guess. OP, IF there are genuine and experienced people out there who know Akitas and are willing to take this dog off you then maybe you can try that route. I don't know if there are breed rescues for these but if so, maybe discuss with them if there is any possibility the dog can be helped.

At the end of the day though I think it's unfair on an animal to not be trusted and to not have trust in its owner/handler. It does make me sad as no dog asked to be put in the position of being a pet and some breeds just are not suited to this lifestyle yet, through trends and fashion have found themselves in it. So many are destroyed or abandoned when the owners realise they're out of their depth but in the worst cases the behaviour is ignored or the animal is excluded (shut in a room/tied in a yard, not exercised) because the owner is, quite frankly, scared of it. Then the dog eventually turns on someone and is destroyed (by the intervention of other authorities). This is not how it should be. 

I do hope you find a way out for this dog for one way or the other as at the moment neither the dog or you/your family seem happy with how things are.


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## CorvusCorax (22 August 2013)

OP, as I was chatting to someone earlier today - let's say theoretically, my dog challenges me and means it and I take him to task over it and refuse to back down (which you have not yet done). 
Grand. 
It's my dog, my issue, it's my decision to take, if I get holes in me and end up in A&E, that's my problem. I don't have any other dogs in the house, I don't have kids in the house, I don't have dependants, although my mother might not be amused.
You have all of these things.
No breed of dog should randomly attack other dogs and threaten their owner as a breed trait. You should be a team.

We have PTS otherwise physically healthy, but aggressive/unpredictable dogs - sad, yes, but the feeling of relief that the dog is no longer in torment, and not having to be eagle eyed and stressed all the time, outweighed that sadness.
Do you really, in your heart of hearts, consider her happy? And could you live with yourself if you rehomed her and ended up doing even more damage?


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## Dobiegirl (22 August 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Stunningly beautiful has never been grounds for owning any animal.

Breeding for temperament in an established and generally amenable breed,  is one thing,  but there can't even be lip service to the question of temperament,  when we're discussing breeds where no thought,  for the last 100+ years has been paid to that particular breed and its likely temperament,  and expecting it to fit in with our western World,  or families,  or children,  or other dogs.

Then we get to your second,  and accurate paragraph,  and I suppose that they may just as well be unreadable,  as the bulk of the owners wouldn't recognise what was going on in the head of a spaniel,  far less such a creature.  Akitas have the potential (to the point of _Likelihood_) that they will be difficult at best,  and bloody dangerous at worst.  

Alec.
		
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I cant believe you misunderstood me again, stunningly beautiful has made them desirable to people who go by looks hence the great interest by BYBs breeding from dogs and using those of iffy temperments. They are difficult to read, nothing like a Spaniel or a Lab  who are an open book

I think Cayla has explained very well what they were bred for and how they lived with their family in their native country of Japan, they were trusted family members and having an iffy temperment would never have worked in that environment.


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## CAYLA (22 August 2013)

Indeed DG, being stunningly beautiful/looking menacing has been just that  (grounds to buy) for a lot of people. Huskys and staffs, (for example) of course its never a sensible decision to act on alone but it never stopped them being bought sadly) 
As huskys akitas can be a victim of their unique striking looks sadly (and a harsh lesson to learn).

OP lots of good advice here (dont want to go off topic lol)


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## Alec Swan (22 August 2013)

I haven't misunderstood you.  I was supporting and underlining your thoughts.  I agree with you.  Don't be a cross patch! :tongue3:

Alec.

Just as a footnote,  D_G,  serious question,  I wonder what the reaction was when the Dobe was first designed and bred,  as I'm assured that it was.  The guy who was responsible for creating them,  wanted a dog which was virtually expressionless,  unless I've been misinformed.  I'd think that you'd need to be in tune with them,  as a breed to be able to predict with any certainty,  their next move.  Not generally my dog,  but one of the dogs in my life which really stood out was a Dobe.  He was some boy.


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## Dobiegirl (22 August 2013)

Im no cross patch, you said my second paragraph was accurate which implies the first was not.

Im no Akita expert and Im sure you will be the first to admit you are not either, so will leave the advice now to Cayla now she is here as she is the only one to my knowledge who actually has real knowledge of owning this breed.


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## Luci07 (23 August 2013)

I know nothing about this breed, but think you have had very good advice on here. If the experts won't take this girl on, then you don't have an option as clearly your home life, relationship and other dogs are now struggling because of this behaviour. Good luck OP.  personally, if one of my dogs bit me deliberately and with no notice they would get short shift..although I can be a little complacent as mine are all staffords and the chances of them behaving like that is pretty remote.


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## Dobiegirl (24 August 2013)

[

Alec.

Just as a footnote,  D_G,  serious question,  I wonder what the reaction was when the Dobe was first designed and bred,  as I'm assured that it was.  The guy who was responsible for creating them,  wanted a dog which was virtually expressionless,  unless I've been misinformed.  I'd think that you'd need to be in tune with them,  as a breed to be able to predict with any certainty,  their next move.  Not generally my dog,  but one of the dogs in my life which really stood out was a Dobe.  He was some boy.[/QUOTE]

Just noticed this hence the late reply,Herr Louis Dobermann  was responsible for this breed and numerous dogs were used in the early days, Ive never seen any reference in any book on Dobes refer to a virtual expressionless dog being one of the attributes he wanted. The fact that they are black does mean their facial expressions are not easy to see but they are readable if you know what you are looking at. My current Male Dobe Diesel has very few tan markings on his face but its as plain as day to me what his expressions mean. My current Dobes are lovely and well loved but they cant hold a candle to my previous dog who I sadly lost age 4. He was mainly Eastern European bred and was very sharp but very obedient, he was a private rescue so I had his pedigree and many times I thought I was out of my depth but finding the  right trainer an old school ex police dog trainer was the key to making this dog a dog of my lifetime. Its my opinion these dogs have been dumbed down to make them easier  for Joe Public and Im sure Herr Dobermann would turn in his grave at some who are now very large lap dogs.


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## melle (25 August 2013)

I agree with Cayla. I don't think aggression to a family member is an akita trait! They were said to be used as nanny dogs to because of their loyalty to their family. However dog aggression is common as is a fine tuned hunting instinct. The akita we rescued (inadvertently) 9 years ago would not have been happy in a multi dog household nor would he have been trustworthy. We turned him around after rescuing him as a 9 month old. He had been beaten and was unpredictable but there are gaps in his education such as socialisation with other dogs have never been remedied. I would trust him with any human family member though. And we always said if we had him any later he would have been too far gone. He used to bite. 

Someone will probably take your dog on (akita rescue etc) however at a local charity to me they have 3 akitas in all who have been there over 2 years! Whether they will find someone else to take them on is another matter. And our akita would have hated a life in kennels. He is a family dog. i think what im trying to say is that we were lucky with ours. We were very naive about the breed but he came good. However if he hadn't we wouldn't have sent him to kennels for rehoming. That environment would have been the worst thing for him.  We would have him put down. 

As an aside 70% akitas develop thyroid problems. Over active thyroid can cause aggression - could be worth a blood test?


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## Superhot (25 August 2013)

That's very interesting about the thyroid problem.  OP how are things now???


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