# will my bitch still be pregnant?



## aintgotnohay (1 August 2012)

my poodle was mated to a proven stud dog poodle.we had all tests done etc beforehand and she went onto have a healthy litter of 4 pups.she was a maiden.2 months later my maiden westie went to the same stud dog and had tests etc done beforehand even though she a maiden bitch aswell.well she was mated on the 19th of july and tied successfully with the poodle.one week later she developed a brown bloody discharge-vet said it was end of her season-WRONG.took her back on tuesday 31 august and she has a uti.vet has given me noroclav antibiotics to clear up infection.did she get this from the stud dog as he also has an infection and the stud owner wants me to pay the vets bill for her dog.what are her chances of coming out this pregnant aswell??


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## BigRed (1 August 2012)

let me get this right - you have put your westie to a poodle stud dog - why on earth would you do that ?


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## s4sugar (1 August 2012)

Hopefully she is not pregnant.


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## meandmyself (1 August 2012)

I can't believe how nasty some of the answers in this forum can be. Op, can your vet scan her so you know for sure?


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## Miss L Toe (1 August 2012)

I suppose that will be a Pestie, or perhaps a Woodle?  No reason why two dogs of similar size should not be mated. I don't see stud dog owner has any comeback, I don't see how you can  pay bill for another persons dog, it is more likely that the infection came from the dog rather than a maiden bitch which had been tested for disease, and cleared.


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## lexiedhb (1 August 2012)

meandmyself said:



			I can't believe how nasty some of the answers in this forum can be. Op, can your vet scan her so you know for sure?
		
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Whats nasty? Just hope the stud dog was not a standard poodle!!! Not that i think a Westie/Poodle cross is a necessary paring anyway


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## aintgotnohay (1 August 2012)

i forgot to add the stud dog is a toy poodle.poodles xs with westies are called westiepoos.


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## Amymay (1 August 2012)

I would say that if the stud dog owner accepted the necessary paperwork stating your bitch was 'clean', then they have no comeback.

As for whether she is still in pup - your vet will be able to tell you that.



aintgotnohay said:



			poodles xs with westies are called westiepoos.
		
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No, they're called cross breeds - or mongrels - to be absolutely correct.

But sounds like a nice cross.


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## EAST KENT (1 August 2012)

Nope OP they will be mongrels with an inborn coat problem in a year or so.Some bitches end their season a bit messily,but the Noroclaf should sort that..so yes,you will no doubt have a huge litter of lovely mongrels.


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## CorvusCorax (1 August 2012)

Head...approaching...desk...can't...stop....


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## ladyt25 (1 August 2012)

I don't have any particular issue with people mixing whatever breeds of dogs together (although the fact the country is over-run with unwanted dogs does make me wonder WHY people want to do this??). However, what irks me is that people breed a mongrel dog (one you would previously have been able to pick up from a rescue for a pittance) and then decide to call it some ridiculous name and flog puppies for a huge sum!

I can't wait for when this trend eventually stops - what is it with this country having some obsessions with putting two separate names together to make one 'new' (daft) one?!

I have no answer to your question as know nothing about breeding. I am sure if she is in pup they will be, well cute little puppies. Whether necessary is a whol other thread.


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## MurphysMinder (1 August 2012)

If the bitch was swabbed clear before mating (presume this is what you mean by tests), then the stud dog owner has no comeback.  Depending on how bad the infection your bitch may or may not hold.
I'm slightly puzzled that you were so upset when you thought your poodle might possibly be having a cross bred litter yet you have deliberately planned one with another dog.


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## Cinnamontoast (1 August 2012)

Did your poodle girl have pups after she came ome with nasty wolf mongrel dog? Are they DNA tested for pure poodle? 

If you swabbed the _maiden_ westie prior to mating, then I don't see how it's her to blame for the study's infection? Also, why's the stud owner allowing cross breeding?


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## Dobiegirl (1 August 2012)

[.
I'm slightly puzzled that you were so upset when you thought your poodle might possibly be having a cross bred litter yet you have deliberately planned one with another dog.[/QUOTE]

Because its all about the money, if Wolfie had sired the last litter the pups would have been worthless.

OP I hope you are going to provide back up for all these puppies and take any back that develop health problems, Im sure as a responsible breeder you will say of course you will.


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## The Original Kao (1 August 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Head...approaching...desk...can't...stop....
		
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*quickly puts pillow on desk*  Will join you on the *headesk* tho


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## joeanne (1 August 2012)

Might be wrong but this is how I read it....
OP has deliberately mated her dog, and it got an infection. OP wants to know if the dog gave the infection to the bitch, or whether the bitch gave it to the dog and OP is responsible for the incurred bills from stud dog to clear his animal.
OP would also like to know if its possible the bitch is pregnant despite the infection and treatment.

Car crash from start to finish.....


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## Star_Chaser (1 August 2012)

aintgotnohay said:



			i forgot to add the stud dog is a toy poodle.poodles xs with westies are called westiepoos.
		
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Oh dear  they are called cross breeds there is no such breed as a westiepoo.  There are some dreadful health conditions that can arise from mixing two pedigree breeds because you could be unfortunate and get the worst of both breeds.  Part of the benefit of a pedigree is that the health tests are specific to the breed (unless its hips which are generic).

I would love to know which 'health' tests were carried out to do this mating  

No you should not be paying for the stud dogs vet bills as there will be no proof which dog passed on the infection if your bitch is a maiden bitch then in all likelihood it will be the stud dogs fault in which case you could claim your own vet bills from the owner.

I have to admit I would hope on this occasion there are no puppies from the mating.  In future consider going to a stud within your own breed and health test accordingly. Ask you vet to scan your bitch to confirm that she is pregnant.


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## piebaldsparkle (1 August 2012)

Has the OP ever stated that either her Poodle or Westie or the stud Poodle are pedigree??

Have suspicion that 'health tests' will be no more that the vet checking it has a pulse prior to vaccs (if that).

OP sounds nothing more than a BYB.


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## Alec Swan (1 August 2012)

aintgotnohay said:



			my poodle was mated to a proven stud dog poodle.we had all tests done etc beforehand and she went onto have a healthy litter of 4 pups.she was a maiden.2 months later my maiden westie went to the same stud dog and had tests etc done beforehand even though she a maiden bitch aswell.well she was mated on the 19th of july and tied successfully with the poodle.one week later she developed a brown bloody discharge-vet said it was end of her season-WRONG.took her back on tuesday *31 august* and she has a uti.vet has given me noroclav antibiotics to clear up infection.did she get this from the stud dog as he also has an infection and the stud owner wants me to pay the vets bill for her dog.what are her chances of coming out this pregnant aswell??
		
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Today is the 1st. of August (see the bold print above),  point one,  and point two,  this is another post of yours from the 24th. of May.  

Tell me something,  is it just me,  or is this all a work of fiction?  Are these two dogs one and the same?  I'm a little confused,  explain to me.

Finally,  if your planning on a career as a dog breeder,  I'd give up now,  you'll be happier,  and so will your dogs. 

Alec.


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## Star_Chaser (1 August 2012)

Just in case anyone is reading this that genuinely wants to produce a crossbreed litter I hope you will think about a couple of things:

Each pedigree breed has a dedicated rescue who are there for you when for whatever reason things go wrong and you need help be it as an owner or a breeder, if you produce a cross breed litter then your only option is the RSPCA or mix breed rescue which currently are inundated with dogs so much so that many have a waiting list for dogs to come in.  Many are PTS. There is no breed support the two involved will not touch for the vast majority a cross breed as they have many pedigrees needing their limited funds.

The second thing is that these days you can no longer just breed and run when the pups are of an age to sell there can be comeback from the owners of your puppies long into their old age so that could be 15 years of repercussions both personal and financial from breeding a single litter  

It really isn't worth it.  If anyone does have a crossbred litter and accidents do happen then register them with the KC under the Activity Register and Microchip before they leave you at least then you have taken some responsibility for the animals that you produce.


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## CAYLA (1 August 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Today is the 1st. of August (see the bold print above),  point one,  and point two,  this is another post of yours from the 24th. of May.  

Tell me something,  is it just me,  or is this all a work of fiction?  Are these two dogs one and the same?  I'm a little confused,  explain to me.

Finally,  if your planning on a career as a dog breeder,  I'd give up now,  you'll be happier,  and so will your dogs. 

Alec.
		
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THIS ^^^^
Also I have not seen 1 NASTY comment as suggest by someone maybe meandmyself, I see some very good questions aswell as answers. Back Yard Breeders need as much advice as they can get so keep it coming to the OP.

If the other Back Yard Breeder asks for her vet bills to be paid be sure you both claim it back on your TAX RETURN.


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## Arizahn (1 August 2012)

So what do you do if you actually do prefer mongrels? Or feel that paying the cost of a small mortgage for a dog is unacceptable? Why can't there be a middle ground, where mongrel types are bred as pets, but under some sort of regulated conditions that ensure their welfare and prevent too many litters per year from being bred? Say where would-be breeders have to have their dogs assessed for health and temperament and then if deemed suitable they get assigned onto a waiting list for when they can breed a litter.

Maybe no one should be allowed to breed any more dogs at all until all the ones that already exist have homes...


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## piebaldsparkle (1 August 2012)

Arizahn said:



			So what do you do if you actually do prefer mongrels? Or feel that paying the cost of a small mortgage for a dog is unacceptable?
		
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Well you wouldn't one of these crossbreeds as they often want more than the asking price of a pedigree to go withe the made up name. 

As for not breeding till all dogs have a home that's not very practical.


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## piebaldsparkle (1 August 2012)

CAYLA said:



			If the other Back Yard Breeder asks for her vet bills to be paid be sure you both claim it back on your TAX RETURN.

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LMFAO like they declare


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## CorvusCorax (1 August 2012)

Arizahn said:



			Or feel that paying the cost of a small mortgage for a dog is unacceptable?
		
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My young dog was the product of two dogs which have competed at national and world level. Every dog in first three gens has highest working qualification and and every dog in five gens has low-scoring hips and elbows.
He is also a pet by the way, he is lying on the hearthrug snoozing as I type.
He was home reared with kids, dogs and horses.
He cost me approx £390 sterling at 14 weeks with quite a lot of foundation clicker training, socialisation and his toilet training done, registered, microchipped, vacced etc.

I have just Googled 'westiepoo pups for sale' and have got pups ranging from £350-£600.
Equally I have Googled 'German Shepherd pups for sale' and got unknown breeding and the pups are being sold for £400-£850.

I'd rather reward people who put work into their breeding (crossbreeds or otherwise) than hand out my money to people who reverse any old bitch into any old dog for the purposes of making cash.

Each to their own, though...


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## CAYLA (1 August 2012)

Arizahn said:



			So what do you do if you actually do prefer mongrels? Or feel that paying the cost of a small mortgage for a dog is unacceptable? Why can't there be a middle ground, where mongrel types are bred as pets, but under some sort of regulated conditions that ensure their welfare and prevent too many litters per year from being bred? Say where would-be breeders have to have their dogs assessed for health and temperament and then if deemed suitable they get assigned onto a waiting list for when they can breed a litter.

Maybe no one should be allowed to breed any more dogs at all until all the ones that already exist have homes...
		
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If you prefer a mongrel go to a rescue, we have plenty mongrels and the self and same ones (handed to us) that where bred and sold for £600 + with a fashionable name are placed on our site as a cross breed and we ask a donation of £150 and they are neutered, vaccinated, chipped and insured with lifetime back up
There are still plenty or irrisponsible folk allowing their dogs to breed simply because they "apparently cannot afford" to neuter so they get banged up by the dog next door, they are as untested as the "designer ones" at half the price and are actually sold as mongrels.


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## Alec Swan (1 August 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			.......

I'd rather reward people who put work into their breeding (crossbreeds or otherwise) than hand out my money to people who reverse any old bitch into any old dog for the purposes of making cash.

Each to their own, though...
		
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As good an AAD post as one will read,  to date.  

Every single pedigree dog is a cross breed,  it's just the planning that takes place,  which separates success from disaster.

Alec.


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## CAYLA (1 August 2012)

piebaldsparkle said:





LMFAO like they declare
		
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Exactly, hence the 
I have had some sucess recently informing the tax man, they are becoming very interested in this breeding money malarky


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## Arizahn (1 August 2012)

I love the fact that no one likes my suggestion of a properly run register for breeding non pedigrees, and that apparently stopping breeding whilst we have more dogs than homes isn't practical

Small mortgage comment refers to those selling whatever sort of dog for several thousand pounds, as opposed to several hundred. Anyone run into those sort of folk lately? Ridiculous...

And sorry, but I wouldn't take on another rescue, or certainly not an adult. I've been lied to in the past about very serious health and behaviour issuesI'd far rather take my chances with a pup, but even then would be wary of a rescue. Too many bad memories. Dog in question should not have been rehomed - it was dangerous to itself and others.

Fire away, I've given you some more fuel...


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## CorvusCorax (1 August 2012)

The register is not a bad idea but the KC can't even seem to crack down on the wheeler-dealers of pedigrees......

Breeding moratoriums have been mentioned on here before. I think it is worth consideration, actually. There would obviously have to be some sort of exemptions for things like working dogs, rare/at risk breeds etc.

And yes, I saw unregistered Maltese pups in the papers for £1200 once.


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## Arizahn (1 August 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			The register is not a bad idea but the KC can't even seem to crack down on the wheeler-dealers of pedigrees......

Breeding moratoriums have been mentioned on here before. I think it is worth consideration, actually. There would obviously have to be some sort of exemptions for things like working dogs, rare/at risk breeds etc.

And yes, I saw unregistered Maltese pups in the papers for £1200 once.
		
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Maybe we could form a new KC
Scary what people pay for those tiny ones

Yes, of course certain breeds/types would need special consideration.

Sorry, I think about this a lot. Am somewhat obsessed with it really


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## bluewhippet (1 August 2012)

Arizahn said:



			So what do you do if you actually do prefer mongrels? Or feel that paying the cost of a small mortgage for a dog is unacceptable? Why can't there be a middle ground, where mongrel types are bred as pets, but under some sort of regulated conditions that ensure their welfare and prevent too many litters per year from being bred? Say where would-be breeders have to have their dogs assessed for health and temperament and then if deemed suitable they get assigned onto a waiting list for when they can breed a litter.

Maybe no one should be allowed to breed any more dogs at all until all the ones that already exist have homes...
		
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I know what you mean.

I have had pedigree dogs over the last decade but I get shocked by the irresponsibility of some of these breeders that I have come across. I don't really see how a line can be drawn which equals crossbreds bad, pedigrees good. 

I think the conjoined dog breed names are really annoying but people are willing to pay the money...and pedigree dogs are often inbred and foolishly bred, I really don't see the difference myself. There are kind, thoughtful breeders and those just in it for the money.

If somebody has a crossbreed bitch that they love and that is healthy and with a good temperament and wants to keep a puppy from that litter and knows a friend who is also interested in one, and then advertises the others, after giving them the best start in life possible, and has an open door policy for problems, I don't see that they should be judged as inferior to a responsible pedigree breeder.


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## Dobiegirl (1 August 2012)

For anyone thinking of breeding it might be helpful to read this.

http://www.dogstuff.info/to_breed_or_not.html


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## Cinnamontoast (1 August 2012)

Arizahn said:



			I love the fact that no one likes my suggestion of a properly run register for breeding non pedigrees, and that apparently stopping breeding whilst we have more dogs than homes isn't practical.
		
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No, I agree dog breeding ought to be registered, but who will pay, organise and enforce? Someone suggested a moratorium on staffie breeding for a couple of years if we are to save the breed: I quite agree, every other dog round here is a staff. I dread to think what it's doing to the gene pool.  I wonder also if you were to DNA test, how many locally would be related? 

I would far rather pay an awful lot more than I did for a decently bred pup from health tested parent, certainly, but having looked recently on the KC website for a health tested springer pup (just for laughs! ) they are few and far between. I'm happy to wait for the right lines and pup now I actually know what to look for, but I'd be hard pressed to find one with the markings, temperament and lineage I want. I see why people just buy from byb. 

As for the designer crossbreeds, don't get me started! I can only hope it's a phase which will die out soon.


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## Arizahn (1 August 2012)

Apparently all domestic dogs are descended from just three original bitches, from Asia, if I recall correctly.


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## Cinnamontoast (1 August 2012)

Arizahn said:



			Apparently all domestic dogs are descended from just three original bitches, from Asia, if I recall correctly.
		
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Isn't that hamsters?  

Seriously, no idea, never looked into it.


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## Arizahn (1 August 2012)

Some stuff about dogs...

McCourty, C Origin of dogs traced (2002) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2498669.stm

University of Arizona. "Ancient domesticated dog skull found in Siberian cave: 33,000 years old." ScienceDaily, 23 Jan. 2012. Web. 13 May 2012.

Nikolai D. Ovodov, Susan J. Crockford, Yaroslav V. Kuzmin, Thomas F. G. Higham, Gregory W. L. Hodgins, Johannes van der Plicht. A 33,000-Year-Old Incipient Dog from the Altai Mountains of Siberia: Evidence of the Earliest Domestication Disrupted by the Last Glacial Maximum. PLoS ONE, 2011; 6 (7): e22821 DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0022821

 Expertanswer (Expertsvar in Swedish). "First dogs came from East Asia, genetic study confirms." ScienceDaily, 23 Nov. 2011. Web. 13 May 2012.
Z-L Ding, M Oskarsson, A Ardalan, H Angleby, L-G Dahlgren, C Tepeli, E Kirkness, P Savolainen, Y-P Zhang. Origins of domestic dog in Southern East Asia is supported by analysis of Y-chromosome DNA. Heredity, 2011; DOI: 10.1038/hdy.2011.114

Enjoy


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## Arizahn (1 August 2012)

Wrote my dissertation on dogs in ancient society, it was fun to research.


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## Arizahn (1 August 2012)

Oops...only 95%


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## suzysparkle (1 August 2012)

OP - Why are you breeding a) at all and b) again so quickly??

Two very genuine questions.


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## s4sugar (1 August 2012)

Arizahn said:



			Wrote my dissertation on dogs in ancient society, it was fun to research.
		
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But those dogs were not bred for quick cash.

Poor breeding is poor breeding whether pure bred or not. ( & you have made the common mistake iof confusing breed & pedigree (a pure bred is always pedigree but a pedigree is not always pure bred)
The problem is that people will purchase poorly bred puppies and/or puppies that have no hope of suiting their lifestyle so these puppies get dumped on rescues.

What are people paying money for crossbreeds? Ignorance! 

The original breeder of Labradoodles only did the cross because there were no large standard poodles or curly coated retrievers ( & he didn't know of Russian black terriers, Airedales, Giant Schnauzers nor Bouviers that may have worked) within about a thousand mile. The experiment was not a success but puppy farmers cottoned on to marketing gimmick and the puppy buying public will do more research on buying a toaster than a puppy; Often becoming selectively deaf when told cons about a breed by a reputable breeder but believing the lies of the commercial breeder. 

I work with several breed rescues. We rarely get dogs in from reputable breeders and this is for two reasons - one, they take back anything they breed and two, they screen the buyers better.

If people stopped buying the products of bad breeding the commercial breeders would move on to something else. 
The KC could do more but is powerless against those who don't register. The councils that do have power would rather sit back & take the money from puppy farms.


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## suzysparkle (1 August 2012)

To everyone else - what a minefield! We have had one litter and kept them. That said we imported the Dad, and the Mum is from 2 imports. In so many ways I'm glad she had a small litter as we kept them - but so many people want good working dogs. We would always take back any pup we bred no questions asked but then we'd never sell one to anyone that would be likely (excluding something totally unforseen) to ever have to do so. But then, we'd never be where we are with our dogs if other people hadn't sold pups to us. That said, we were obviously very genuine to these people and they were all (bar our first one) from very reputable people who all had waiting lists and kept at least one of the litter. Also, all bar our first have clauses that should we not be able to keep them they must go back to the breeder. This is how it should be.

I will add our £80 collie doesn't have any clauses. He is also the only dog we own with a health issue (heart murmer). Says a lot!! That said, he's very very fit and has a great temperament. He also runs in harness with the huskies!

I see people I class as friends talking about breeding and it dispairs me (other breeds). They are good people but clearly have no idea of what is a good dog. Maybe my standards are too high - but given we want good workers we very quickly discount dogs for breeding. We don't show (that's a whole other debate) but we very much look at dual purpose as well.  I have successfully talked a few people out of breeding, and of owning Siberians   As for 'designer breeds', and there is no other way of describing these names, they are purely made up to make money. Calling it 'X crossed with X' doesn't sounds as attractive as a 'Westiepoo' (is that it?) to many people. It's all in the 'name'. Same goes for designer clothes.....they are probably made in the same factory as cheaper labels!!

I saw Husky / Lab crosses at £650 a while ago?? WTF?? WHY WOULD YOU?? DO PEOPLE KNOW NOTHING??


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## suzysparkle (1 August 2012)

As for health tests, all the ones recommended for the breed should of course always be done.


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## Arizahn (1 August 2012)

s4sugar said:



			But those dogs were not bred for quick cash.

Poor breeding is poor breeding whether pure bred or not. ( & you have made the common mistake iof confusing breed & pedigree (a pure bred is always pedigree but a pedigree is not always pure bred)
		
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No, they were bred to fulfill a role. Unwanted pups were also culled to give the rest a better chance at survival. Sometimes the breeder would place the pups inside a circle of fire and let the bitch choose which ones to save..what is your point? I had an interesting link and wanted to explain where I found it.

And I'm not confused about pedigree, by the wayI was talking about controlling how many dogs were bred. Full stop.

A pure bred is not always pedigree: it is a dog whose parents are both known and both of pure breeding - such as a collie cross Labrador as compared to say a collie cross unknown mix. Thus you can have purebred doodles, oodles, (possibly even noodles by now) and lurchers, but not purebred Heinz 57s...

A pedigree is one where both parents are of traceable lineage and of the same breed of dog - such as a collie cross collie equals (duh) a pedigree collie.


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## Cinnamontoast (2 August 2012)

Far as I know, two pedigrees crossed= crossbreed. Two crossbreeds crossed= mongrel.

I saw a staffie x husky this week. Beautiful ears, bright blue eyes, spectacle markings, staffie body. Odd mix. Made me stop and look.


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## Bosworth (2 August 2012)

I have been looking at the price and breeding of dogs for the past two or three weeks as looking for a companion. It is ridiculous, anything crossed with a chi is for sale at about £700+ and if it has a stupid name then it goes for even more. Pedigree labs, with full papers, health tested etc were going for about £300, make it a labradoodle and its about £550+. I will happily have a mongrel, I have no problem with them at all, but I cannot see how people can be stupid enough to believe the rubbish about the dog being a pedigree labradoodle. a pedigree jacchi, or cavachon. Its a mongrel, it is not more healthy, it could be the sum of both parts and have double the trouble. The the trouble is the BYB rely on peoples ignorance and stupidity, and there are plenty of ignorant, stupid people out there who will buy these designer names, to the detriment of the breed. Hopefully sometime soon the trend for designer names will stop and mongrels will become that again.


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## Kaylum (2 August 2012)

I will say this again, a KC registered breeder with a good stud dog will not cross it with any bitch, unregistered or registered unless its a very good example for the SAME breed. 

People with stud dogs, why? What do they know about breeding, very little in my opinion.   What breed lines are these dogs?  What temperaments? Can you trace them back? 

What about pregnancy putting one breed to another is very risky. But there again monkey see monkey do. 

Would rather pay for a good example of a pedigree with lines I can research, an pay more than I have ever paid for a horse in my life. I.e I have never paid more than 1k for a horse, never had to.


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## MurphysMinder (2 August 2012)

Interesting points about a moratorium of breeding.  I guess I sort of had a self imposed breeding ban for 12 years,  I had found I was having to turn more people down who were not suitable for GSDs and although I had always found great homes for pups I decided to have a break.
  It was only because I had a lot of people wanting a pup that I decided to mate Evie, and I have been pleasantly surprised by how clued up purchasers are about health tests(hip scores etc) temperament and the like.   Whilst I have been out and about with Freya I have had no end of people coming up asking where I got her, and then asking when I am planning another litter!  It seems that round here people want well bred, healthy pups but there are not many people breeding, yet there are many adverts in the paper for shepherd pups, often at higher prices than I charged and without hip scores etc.  I have been asking round amongst decent breeders I know and none have litters planned, so it does seem that what is happening is that the responsible breeders are cutting back on their litters, and the BYBs are cashing in on it.  Presumably they sell to the people who haven't done their research and may well in future decide it might be a nice idea to have pups and the problem is perpetuated.
So I have no real answers, education does seem to be the way to go but how do you get it across to people that a dog is not just a cash machine.

cinnamon toast - staff x husky, eek.  I like both breeds but just what would you be looking to achieve by crossing them, oh I know super status dogs!


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## s4sugar (2 August 2012)

Arizahn said:



			A pure bred is not always pedigree: it is a dog whose parents are both known and both of pure breeding - such as a collie cross Labrador as compared to say a collie cross unknown mix. Thus you can have purebred doodles, oodles, (possibly even noodles by now) and lurchers, but not purebred Heinz 57s...

A pedigree is one where both parents are of traceable lineage and of the same breed of dog - such as a collie cross collie equals (duh) a pedigree collie.
		
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Actually you are completely wrong. A pedigree is a family tree with known animals of whatever breed so to be a purebred it is also pedigree (papers can get lost) .
A pure bred only has the same breed in it's pedigree. A cross of two or more breeds is never a pure breed so you cannot have purebred crosses. Lurchers are crosses but can, and should, have pedigrees. 
Ignorance like the quote above is a blessing to the puppy farmers. PDE gave them a license to print money and no registrations means no paper trail or regulation. As MurphysMiner says, good breeders breed seldom & have cut back.
Too many dogs are being bred and too many of these are bred for monetary reasons.

A good example of pedigree animals that are not purebred are Holstein horses.


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## Cinnamontoast (2 August 2012)

MurphysMinder said:



			cinnamon toast - staff x husky, eek.  I like both breeds but just what would you be looking to achieve by crossing them, oh I know super status dogs!

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She was pretty, as long as you didn't look at the body and head together! I asked if it was ok to let my two off as she was on lead, he said yes but I waited til he'd gone cos she had a major gash half healed that he said was her fault and another dog and a ball had been involved. Cue CT hiding the ball launcher and scuttling away!


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## aintgotnohay (3 August 2012)

well what an interesting thread.
first of all westiepoos have been around since the 1960s-they have not suddenly appeared on the dog breeding scene.by crossing a westie with poodle you can get dogs suitable for people with allergies.while there is a demand people will keep breeding them.
as for me been a back yard breeder-we all have to start somewhere.i do not breed my dogs at every season and have no intention of either.i have a friend who breeds litter after litter and then rehomes her bitches after they had 3 or 4 litters-that not right.
the dogs i breed are poodles westies and shith zus.these types of dog are in demand and sell as soon as dog is pregnant more or less.i do not breed staffies and wouldnt cos theres millions of them everywhere.
also all my dogs are given 100 per cent care with worming,vacs,defleaing.etc.they are all well fed and live together in a pack .i walk all five of them 4 times per day.they are all happy and well balanced dogs with no behavouir issues of any kind.
all my bitches receive proper tests proior to mating and have 100 per cent care whilst pregnant.so please to not condone people b4 you know what you on about.
my bitches infection has cleared up now and all is well and in few weeks i will know if she is pregnant or not.


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## Amymay (3 August 2012)

Actually, I've just done a bit of reading up on the cross - and it does sound interesting, and quite well established.   And I must apologise for calling it a mongrel. 

Posts such as yours will always generate heated debate, because many 'purists' are against crosses of any types. 

Plus the tone of your original post gives the impression of someone not experienced in breeding (although of course everyone has to start somewhere), so that will also raise questions and heated debate.  I'm quite suprised to read your last post here where you do seem to have some experience....

Anyway, good luck with the litter, and it would be lovely to see some photo's when the pup's are born.


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## lexiedhb (3 August 2012)

aintgotnohay said:



			well what an interesting thread.
first of all westiepoos have been around since the 1960s-they have not suddenly appeared on the dog breeding scene.by crossing a westie with poodle you can get dogs suitable for people with allergies.while there is a demand people will keep breeding them.
as for me been a back yard breeder-we all have to start somewhere.i do not breed my dogs at every season and have no intention of either.i have a friend who breeds litter after litter and then rehomes her bitches after they had 3 or 4 litters-that not right.
the dogs i breed are poodles westies and shith zus.these types of dog are in demand and sell as soon as dog is pregnant more or less.i do not breed staffies and wouldnt cos theres millions of them everywhere.
also all my dogs are given 100 per cent care with worming,vacs,defleaing.etc.they are all well fed and live together in a pack .i walk all five of them 4 times per day.they are all happy and well balanced dogs with no behavouir issues of any kind.
all my bitches receive proper tests proior to mating and have 100 per cent care whilst pregnant.so please to not condone people b4 you know what you on about.
my bitches infection has cleared up now and all is well and in few weeks i will know if she is pregnant or not.
		
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Oh what baloney. there is NO way of knowing what sort of coat will be produced when cross breeding, so no way of knowing wether they will help allergy sufferers. 

NO not everyone HAS to start breeding somewhere- have em spayed keep em as pets. instead of seeing the pound signs before your eyes. 

What health checks did your dog/ the stud receive?


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## MurphysMinder (3 August 2012)

Hmm, if I had a friend who bred a bitch at every season they would no longer be a friend.
Okay you have more experience than it initially appeared from the questions you were asking, but I'm afraid the fact that you seem to be producing pups regularly just because there is a demand doesn't impress me.  Why exactly do you breed, to improve your line and keep a puppy or because there is a ready market?
Re the westie x poodle cross, you MAY get a dog with a suitable coat for people with allergies but as has been said loads of times on here there is no guarantee.


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## 4x4 (3 August 2012)

Well I breed the odd JRT and I have paperwork and pedigrees (not KC reg) going back for over 20 years! And it's all true!


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## Kaylum (3 August 2012)

lexiedhb said:



			Oh what baloney. there is NO way of knowing what sort of coat will be produced when cross breeding, so no way of knowing wether they will help allergy sufferers. 

NO not everyone HAS to start breeding somewhere- have em spayed keep em as pets. instead of seeing the pound signs before your eyes. 

What health checks did your dog/ the stud receive?
		
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Exactly this.  First of all dogs carry dust mites in their coats.  End of.  If you are allergic to dust mites you might get a nasty reaction when dogs are around. in fact curly coated dogs carry more dust mites. Secondly all dogs shed.  Westies had a couple of them, they all shed. Thirdly if you want a dog that doesnt shed AS MUCH why not get a pedigree why does it have to be a cross.


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## 4x4 (3 August 2012)

Surely if you are allergic to dogs' hairs then you should make them live in a kennel or not have  dog at all!


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## Cinnamontoast (3 August 2012)

lexiedhb said:



			Oh what baloney. there is NO way of knowing what sort of coat will be produced when cross breeding, so no way of knowing wether they will help allergy sufferers. 

NO not everyone HAS to start breeding somewhere- have em spayed keep em as pets. instead of seeing the pound signs before your eyes. 

What health checks did your dog/ the stud receive?
		
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This. One imagines the pedigrees are kc registered so we can all see their hip scores etc on the kc website? Unless they've had the specifically recommended tests for the breed, other tests are worthless. 

Coat is unknown til the pup is a a bit older, it is a total NONSENSE to say that a poodle cross will not shed. Crap, dare I even say!


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## CorvusCorax (3 August 2012)

Nice line at the top of the Mini Poodle breed club website:
"The Club does NOT support the inter breeding of Poodles with other breeds nor the breeding of Parti-Colour Poodles for exhibition."

Mini poodle health tests alone include:
Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA testing/eye clearance 
Hip Dysplasia x-rays
Patellar Luxation evaluation
They can also suffer epilepsy, VW disease, thyroid problems.

Shih Tzu and Westie health tests I am not so sure about but I trust your Westie has no skin issues as they should definitely not be bred from.

"worming,vacs,defleaing" is something ALL house/family dogs should have done anyway, it is not just a 'health' thing, it's a housekeeping thing.

And agree, saying that all dogs of a certain cross don't moult is a fallacy.


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## Cop-Pop (3 August 2012)

I might be being naive but why can't this country be like Australia and by law require dogs are neutered unless you've registered your dog as a breeding dog?  My aunts dogs had to have special tags on to say they've been done - I suppose like license tags.


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## Luci07 (3 August 2012)

Cop-Pop said:



			I might be being naive but why can't this country be like Australia and by law require dogs are neutered unless you've registered your dog as a breeding dog?  My aunts dogs had to have special tags on to say they've been done - I suppose like license tags.
		
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That's a brilliant idea, but then I love staffords who are the ultimate example of a breed being ruined by backstreet breeders. 

People are completely shocked when I start throwing stats at them, like a pound only keeps a dog for 7 days, then it's out if they are lucky to a rescue or PTS. Or that Staffie types, heathy and young are being PTS at upto a rate of 40 - 70 dogs a day, or that rescues, are not vote less pits of money but for the most, run on a shoestring, by volunteers.  I would like to see all breeders having to register their dogs. I appreciate that in some instances, breeding pedigree dogs brings its own set of health issues but the Australian approach sounds sensible.


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## aintgotnohay (3 August 2012)

well im all for breeders been regesired and dog licences and microchipping.
all puppies i sell go with a health certificate,have first injections,insured for 4 weeks and guarantee or will have them back if new owners not want them/cant cope or whatever reason up to 5 months from the sale.all owners have receipt and supply of food to go and my puppies do not leave here until they are 8 weeks old.i can understand where some people are coming from on breeding dogs.all my breeding dogs come from excelleant breeding lines of their type.they are only bred if they are in tip top condition and are 3 years old.when they have had their litters and they come into season again.they are not bred from again straightaway.i d rather breed fewer healthy puppies than mass produce them everytime a bitch is in season-not my style.breeding dogs is not just about making money.its about supply puppies of whatever breed for family pets.my puppies are all well socialised as much as i can in the time i have them.so just cos i have bred my westie with a poodle doesnt make me a bad person.i have had westiepoos b4 and they are lovelly dogs.my dogs are not overpriced either.ive seen westiepoos got for £700.mine are much less than that.


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## TurtleToo (3 August 2012)

So if the owner is unable to keep the pup, but it's more than 5 months after the sale, you take nothing to do with it and pup ends up in rescue? You allowed the pup to be brought into the world, you have a responsibility to that pup for the rest of its life, whether you're asked to take it back after 2 weeks or 15 years.

I've been asked to rehome a litter of pups because the owner never bothered to spay their bitch, I'm getting pups microchipped (before which they'll have a quick vet check), worming and defleaing them and they're going to their new homes with a contract (I know it may not be legally binding but at least its something) that they'll be vaccinated within 24 hours and neutered at 6 months. As well as this I'm offering lifetime backup for the pups, behavioural and if the worst came to the worst emergency foster before finding a new home. I have absolutely no responsibility for these pups, yet I'm doing as much for them as you do for your pups. Glorified puppy farming springs to mind.


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## Amymay (3 August 2012)

guarantee or will have them back if new owners not want them/cant cope or whatever reason up to 5 months from the sale.
		
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Why aren't you offering a lifetime guarantee to have them back?


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## MurphysMinder (3 August 2012)

IMO a breeder should take responsibility for a dog they have bred for life not just for 5 months.  Evie's gang are coming up to 5 months now, I cannot imagine washing my hands of them at this stage.  Some people will remember me asking on here for help to rehome a bitch who I had bred nearly 11 years previously, that is what a responsible breeder should do.  For those that do remember Saffie, she is still going strong at 14.5 years, bless her.


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## Amymay (3 August 2012)

Was that the dog whose owner had died MM, and the son couldn't keep her??


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## CorvusCorax (3 August 2012)

Nice deviation from the points people are making


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## Spudlet (3 August 2012)

What does a health certificate cover? Is that a certificate to show that the parents have had all the relevant tests for their breeds with their scores, or is it a certificate to say a vet has looked at the puppies and they appear healthy?


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## Dobiegirl (3 August 2012)

Op your dogs may be health checked and good blood lines but if they are not health tested you are being very irresponsible. Im sure if they were you would be singing it from the rooftops the fact you have failed to mention it leads me to believe they are not.

If you were a genuine responsible breeder you wouldnt be breeding these xbreeds, breeders of pedigrees bitches have a litter limitation placed on them by the Kennel Club and anyone over the limit cant register their puppies.As you are working outside these rules you have no such restrictions and have carte blanche to breed as many as you like, in my opinion it a licence to print money.

I hope you are declaring all this to the Inland revenue as this is classed as unearned income and Ive heard they are cracking down on people like you.


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## CAYLA (3 August 2012)

5 months that is utterly disgraceful. Is that so it's easier to re sell as they are still puppies or because they may not be neutered at that age and you can re breed

We as a rescue offer "life time back up" we never bred, we where not responsible for them being abandoned and we sure a s hell made no money from them. Who are the mugs here then
I have just taken an 11 year old rescue back that I rehomed when she was 10 months old. Clearly I should have said "tuff, not my problem, hoy her on gum tree"


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## lexiedhb (3 August 2012)

CC you were so right

HEAD..................... DESK..................


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## CorvusCorax (3 August 2012)

Just out of interest, how much do these puppies retail for?
Hay prices are through the roof, in fairness....


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## MurphysMinder (3 August 2012)

Yes Amy may that was her, son did keep her in the end


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## Amymay (3 August 2012)

Oh that's great.  Remember it very well, but had sort of lost track.  Perfect outcome.


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## EAST KENT (3 August 2012)

Blimey,what a great idea,only take back up to five months..brilliant..probably house trained and lead trained by then and  very very resellable.
  Think I`m going wrong here somehow, and of course having a knowledge of simple genetics is an awful hinderence.It would mean you had to admit you knew that NOT all these lovely pound sign puppies are non allergic ! Goodness,what a twit I have been.


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## lexiedhb (3 August 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			Blimey,what a great idea,only take back up to five months..brilliant..probably house trained and lead trained by then and  very very resellable.
  Think I`m going wrong here somehow, and of course having a knowledge of simple genetics is an awful hinderence.It would mean you had to admit you knew that NOT all these lovely pound sign puppies are non allergic ! Goodness,what a twit I have been.
		
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You really should pay more attention EK


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## HeatherAnn (3 August 2012)

".breeding dogs is not just about making money"

Yeah okay  nice touch btw. I mean who breeds "designer dogs" to make the world a better place?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (3 August 2012)

Aintgotnothayaintgotnobraineither.

Seriously though, I've read  posts from aintgonothayorbraineither and she/he is a subtle troll. The slight grammatical errors, contentious posts, the feigned ignorance reeks TROLL.


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## noodle_ (3 August 2012)

horseloaner said:



			It really isn't worth it.  If anyone does have a crossbred litter and accidents do happen then register them with the KC under the Activity Register and Microchip before they leave you at least then you have taken some responsibility for the animals that you produce.
		
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nooooo the KC aint got **** on the "dog lovers register"...


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## foxy1 (3 August 2012)

To those who say why are these cross breeds £500-£700, ask yourself why any puppy costs this? 

The health tests are only a one off cost, a bitch is only pregnant for 9 weeks, dogs don't cost much to feed. Why does any breeder think it's ok to get thousands of pounds for a litter?

I don't think ANY breeder can take the moral high ground here.


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## MurphysMinder (3 August 2012)

Have a look at Viszlaks thread from a couple of months ago on the cost of rearing a litter properly, you might find it interesting foxy.


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## Dobiegirl (3 August 2012)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=529866



Foxy this is the thread that MM was referring to, if you read it you will see the true cost of responsible breeding and I can assure you Viszlak did not sell her puppies for £1,000.00 or more.


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## Cinnamontoast (3 August 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Nice deviation from the points people are making 

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Love it! *Just gonna avoid the issuse by babbling on about other stuff....*



lexiedhb said:



			CC you were so right

HEAD..................... DESK..................
		
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^^ This


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## MurphysMinder (4 August 2012)

Thanks Dobiegirl.

You know Foxy, I actually do feel I can take the moral high ground here.  Yes I had a litter from Evie earlier this year, she was bred from purely because I wanted a bitch to keep (aintgotnohay hasn't answered my question if she breeds to keep/improve her line).    I got my pup in Freya who so far is everything I could have hoped for (and 5 other pups who are making their new owners very happy and are in regular contact).  Whilst going out and about with Freya I have been approached by many people asking when I will be breeding again because they want a pup.  Evie is in season now, so it could be tempting to take her next time, but in October she will be being spayed, as has always been my intention.


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## aintgotnohay (7 August 2012)

lifetime guarantee? so i should have the pup back at any age.so if its about 14.i should have it back even if im no longer a breeder-r u mad whoever said that.ive been breeding dogs for ages and only ever had 2 complaints.my dogs get the best in care and that includes vet care.they r kept in a clean environement and are all happy and healthy.if you want to come and see them then please do.oh yes my westie is pregnant.


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## Spudlet (7 August 2012)

You made it - you're responsible for it. 'We order the time of their birth and the time of their death - in between, we have a duty.'

You never actually answered my question on the health certificates?


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## lexiedhb (7 August 2012)

aintgotnohay said:



			lifetime guarantee? so i should have the pup back at any age.so if its about 14.i should have it back even if im no longer a breeder-r u mad whoever said that.ive been breeding dogs for ages and only ever had 2 complaints.my dogs get the best in care and that includes vet care.they r kept in a clean environement and are all happy and healthy.if you want to come and see them then please do.oh yes my westie is pregnant.
		
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What were the complaints?

and no they are not mad they are RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS something you obviously know naff all about.


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## Amymay (7 August 2012)

aintgotnohay said:



			lifetime guarantee? so i should have the pup back at any age.so if its about 14.i should have it back even if im no longer a breeder-r u mad
		
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It's certainly what responsible breeders do.  And morally is of course the correct thing to do.


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## MurphysMinder (7 August 2012)

aintgotnohay said:



			lifetime guarantee? so i should have the pup back at any age.so if its about 14.i should have it back even if im no longer a breeder-r u mad whoever said that.ive been breeding dogs for ages and only ever had 2 complaints.my dogs get the best in care and that includes vet care.they r kept in a clean environement and are all happy and healthy.if you want to come and see them then please do.oh yes my westie is pregnant.
		
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Yes you should have your pups back or at least help if they need rehoming at any age if you are a decent breeder.  See my post a bit further up about the 11 year old I bred!  If you have been breeding dogs for ages why do you keep coming on here and asking stupid questions? 
 Having just realised your location I wonder if you are the "breeder" who is constantly advertising pups for sale of the breeds you have.  Breeds which incidentally seem to be a favourite choice of puppy farmers.


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## CorvusCorax (7 August 2012)

Taking back a dog you bred at any age is not mad, it is responsible.
I am friends with lots of top-end show breeders on Facebook and they often post appeals for rehoming of dogs they have taken back at 9, 10, 11 years old.
Shame on you.


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## Dobiegirl (7 August 2012)

I think we all agree the op is a byb who has little actual knowledge about breeding and is in it purely for the money. OP perhaps you would be good enough to give me your name and address so I can pass on your details to the Inland Revenue.


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## s4sugar (7 August 2012)

aintgotnohay said:



			lifetime guarantee? so i should have the pup back at any age.so if its about 14.i should have it back even if im no longer a breeder-r u mad whoever said that.ive been breeding dogs for ages and only ever had 2 complaints.my dogs get the best in care and that includes vet care.they r kept in a clean environement and are all happy and healthy.if you want to come and see them then please do.oh yes my westie is pregnant.
		
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http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/247
Please read sections 6, 10 & 14.


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## MurphysMinder (7 August 2012)

Oh dear, I have just looked at some of aintgotnohay's other posts.  I really do hope that he or she is a troll, as it appears they live in a flat and the dogs live in a garage, and they also had an elderly, arthritic horse who was sold on to buy a car!


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## Amymay (7 August 2012)

MurphysMinder said:



			Oh dear, I have just looked at some of aintgotnohay's other posts.  I really do hope that he or she is a troll, as it appears they live in a flat and the dogs live in a garage, and they also had an elderly, arthritic horse who was sold on to buy a car!

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  Must be a troll.  People like that don't really exist do they


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## joeanne (7 August 2012)

Sadly AmyMay.....they do


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## CorvusCorax (7 August 2012)

Well if it...er, she...is real then they have shown their true colours and hopefully anyone in the Staffordshire area reading this will run a mile before buying pups and putting money in her pocket, result


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## CAYLA (7 August 2012)

MurphysMinder said:



			Oh dear, I have just looked at some of aintgotnohay's other posts.  I really do hope that he or she is a troll, as it appears they live in a flat and the dogs live in a garage, and they also had an elderly, arthritic horse who was sold on to buy a car!

Click to expand...


A flat, and runnin a puppy farm from the garage this gets worse by the minute!


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## Dobiegirl (7 August 2012)

I wonder if she is paying business rates on her council tax as she is running a business from home.


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## CAYLA (7 August 2012)

aintgotnohay said:



			lifetime guarantee? so i should have the pup back at any age.so if its about 14.i should have it back even if im no longer a breeder-r u mad whoever said that.ive been breeding dogs for ages and only ever had 2 complaints.my dogs get the best in care and that includes vet care.they r kept in a clean environement and are all happy and healthy.if you want to come and see them then please do.oh yes my westie is pregnant.
		
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Why should I take your pup back at the age of 14???, whether you are still breeding or not! you SOLD AND PROFITED from that pup so you KEEP it out of RESCUE, you know!.... those places where other folk pay out for your produce, produce you did not really have to produce, esp if you have no intention of "offering them back up", 5 months is absoloutely disgusting puppy farmer at it's worst.
Exactly how any dogs can you take back living in a flat with them in a garage


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## CAYLA (7 August 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			I wonder if she is paying business rates on her council tax as she is running a business from home.
		
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What like I do you mean? for running a legit business where I declare tax, pay business rates and im licenced and insured. I doubt it.
Im in the wrong business


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## Spudlet (7 August 2012)

CAYLA said:



			Exactly how any dogs can you take back living in a flat with them in a garage

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Oh now, they're only little. I bet if you stack those crates two or three deep, you can cram loads in.

I think I've found the ad on Preloved - 'deposit secures'. Clearly very selective about making sure the pups go to an appropriate home.


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## s4sugar (7 August 2012)

I think that is a different BYB litter as the OP's pups are not born yet.


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## CorvusCorax (7 August 2012)

S4S, presume you are aware of the term, "one on the ground, one on the way"!!!


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## MurphysMinder (7 August 2012)

I think the "on the ground" litter are poodles aren't they?


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## suzysparkle (7 August 2012)

aintgotnohay said:



			lifetime guarantee? so i should have the pup back at any age.so if its about 14.i should have it back even if im no longer a breeder-r u mad whoever said that.ive been breeding dogs for ages and only ever had 2 complaints.my dogs get the best in care and that includes vet care.they r kept in a clean environement and are all happy and healthy.if you want to come and see them then please do.oh yes my westie is pregnant.
		
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You have clearly come on this forum to wind people up. For starters, if you have been breeding for ages you shouldn't be coming on asking questions about it. Given that plenty of the people who have replied are involved in some way with welfare it's no wonder they are furious. They have to mop up the mess left by irresponsible breeders (sorry, puppy farmers) like you who don't provide back up and breed for all the wrong reasons. If you can't see the wrongdoing in your methods than I despair. And that's not even mentioning a lot of other questions raised on the post.


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## suzysparkle (7 August 2012)

MurphysMinder said:



			Oh dear, I have just looked at some of aintgotnohay's other posts.  I really do hope that he or she is a troll, as it appears they live in a flat and the dogs live in a garage, and they also had an elderly, arthritic horse who was sold on to buy a car!

Click to expand...




aintgotnohay said:



			yes he he is old and peeps didnt want him anymore.he is just a pet come light walking hack.he has a home with me for life whether he can be ridden or not.love old haggy and just think he was a day away from slaughter.he was 100kg underweight aswell and lame on all four.has no bute now and is in good health now aswell as can be expected.
		
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Oh dear :-(


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## MurphysMinder (7 August 2012)

Yeh, so much for home for life!  Maybe its like the pups she breeds, the responsibility only lasts for 5 months.


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