# Electric shock collars banned



## Flicker (24 March 2010)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/8584028.stm

I mean, why would you??  You surely have to ask yourself the question that, if you have to give your dog an electric shock to train it, should you have a dog??


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## TableDancer (24 March 2010)

FWIW as someone who has lived in Wales for the last 16 years it is giving me a huge problem. We have a 10 acre property, well-fenced from the point of view of horses, sheeps etc. We also have a terrier. We also have a footpath through our land. Terrier likes nothing better than following walkers who come through. We are also surrounded by sheep farmers who are understandably nervous about unattended dogs running loose, especially at this time of year. For the last 12 years we have had an electronic dog fence which surrounds nearly the whole property, which terrier is quite happy to respect. This allows him to roam about 7 acres of land, be with us while we do horses etc etc . He never gets a shock because he never crosses the boundary, which has a beeping alarm on the collar to warn him if he gets too close.

Now we cannot use this fence. Terrier will go back to following walkers thus ending up straying. He will be at risk of being shot by local farmers (who have occasionally had trouble with other people's dogs). I will have to keep him shut in house or tied up while I teach/ride in the arena as I can't concentrate on making sure he doesn't sneak off rabbiting. How does this improve the quality of his life?? No doubt the stupid people in the Welsh Assembly fell into the same trap as you just have of not thinking through the implications of this blanket ban properly. I'm as against cruelty as the next person and possibly there may be a case for banning the collars which allow people to "zap" their dogs willy nilly, I can see these could be cruel in the wrong hands. But why ban perimeter fences, which even the RSPCA has no problem with? It's lazy, sentimental, unthinking decisions like these which drive me mad


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## lizziebell (24 March 2010)

I don't personally like them, and I do feel that too many are used in the wrong hands and as a replacement for proper training, however I can also see that they are usefull in certain situations, such as that for TableDancer, therefore I think a complete ban is unreasonable, but am not sure what the answer is either (useless I am !).


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## flyingfeet (24 March 2010)

Ridiculous the welsh assembly clearly has way too much time on its hands and trying to make themselves famous!  

Strip them of their powers and stop wasting money on yet another bunch of bureaucrats. 

1. Only people who 'care' about their dogs buy and use these products, the ones that don't give sh*t either beat their dogs or let them roam free

2. Reward training doesn't work when you dog is chasing livestock. Its either this or a bullet. 

People in towns that never let dogs off the lead do not need shock collars. They don't understand. Hence the vocal bunny huggers win again!


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## CorvusCorax (24 March 2010)

Posted in dogs earlier, shall just repeat myself.

E-collars have saved lives and I have seen it myself.

Sorry to sound patronising, but if you have seen some of the dogs I have seen, GSDs and other breeds, hard hard animals, with fight drive, prey drive, pure spunk and no sense bred into them, ingrained for generations, with that drive misdirected or gone to a home who got overwhelmed, to the extent it becomes dangerous, for whom 'naughty naughty' and a little treat just won't cut it, turned into very sociable members of society, then you wouldn't want to see e-collars banned.

Regulated yes, banned no, in the right hands, they can, like I say, save lives.
I have never used one myself but I have used the pinch, well documented here, and if I hadn't I don't know what might have become of my boy. 

High-drive dogs that zone out and lock on cannot be cured by a little pat on the head. I'd rather give a dog a pop on the neck than a bullet or a needle.

I am very sad for the dogs who will no doubt have to be shot or put to sleep because of this decision.


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## kerilli (24 March 2010)

i had one for one of mine, need to get her another one actually (while i still can). she goes off across the fields and is UTTERLY deaf to recall when she's busy having a good sniff, or a chase. this, on 'tingle' setting (i never used it higher, and i tried it on my own hand at all settings (including the highest) so i knew what i was dealing with) worked like a charm to distract her. Once distracted from her fun, she'll come back. 
They aren't cruel if used carefully, and I really wish i'd had one years ago when i had a lovely healthy dog pts because next door's dog came around, took him off, and taught him to worry sheep...  once he'd learnt how much fun that was, and how good they taste (he ripped the ears off them, i paid for all injuries and luckily he never killed one) then it didn't matter what i did, the moment he was loose, even if just for 5 seconds, he shot off to chase them again. hence, short trip to heaven.   
one of these would have saved his life, and i'd still have my lovely Smartie.
this ban is ridiculous imho.


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## wizzlewoo (24 March 2010)

CotswoldSJ said:



			2. Reward training doesn't work when you dog is chasing livestock. Its either this or a bullet. 

People in towns that never let dogs off the lead do not need shock collars. They don't understand. Hence the vocal bunny huggers win again! 

Click to expand...

Nail on the head, they are in the end ogs and so have the ability to ignore and cause trouble, when this trouble comes in to contact with another animal or worse a child then collars like this are better than jumping to the last resport of PTS. Dogs dont even have to be difficult breeds, i have a collie that switches of even though it has been through ridgid training from myself and others, it still barks at people who come on to the property and there is no way of calling him off from a distance. I dont actually have a collar for him but have been thinking of one as an option.

See the tread in All About Dogs


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## Puppy (24 March 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Posted in dogs earlier, shall just repeat myself.

E-collars have saved lives and I have seen it myself.

Sorry to sound patronising, but if you have seen some of the dogs I have seen, GSDs and other breeds, hard hard animals, with fight drive, prey drive, pure spunk and no sense bred into them, ingrained for generations, with that drive misdirected or gone to a home who got overwhelmed, to the extent it becomes dangerous, for whom 'naughty naughty' and a little treat just won't cut it, turned into very sociable members of society, then you wouldn't want to see e-collars banned.

Regulated yes, banned no, in the right hands, they can, like I say, save lives.
I have never used one myself but I have used the pinch, well documented here, and if I hadn't I don't know what might have become of my boy. 

High-drive dogs that zone out and lock on cannot be cured by a little pat on the head. I'd rather give a dog a pop on the neck than a bullet or a needle.

I am very sad for the dogs who will no doubt have to be shot or put to sleep because of this decision.
		
Click to expand...

I completely agree.


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## RunToEarth (25 March 2010)

Why would they ban them, I mean, honestly!? 
From what I recall they are pretty expensive, people do not spend that amount to abuse their dog, they are an effective way of dealing with livestock issues, I agree, and when used correctly only have a positive affect on the way a dog behaves. 
Honestly, such a nanny state!


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## Toffee44 (25 March 2010)

Yet it's ok for us to zap our horses and cattle and sheep etc to keep then within a perimeter fence or protect from harm and hazards. Don't see any one fighting that corner? This is classic ignorance of circumstances.


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## perfect11s (25 March 2010)

CotswoldSJ said:



			Ridiculous the welsh assembly clearly has way too much time on its hands and trying to make themselves famous!  

Strip them of their powers and stop wasting money on yet another bunch of bureaucrats. 

1. Only people who 'care' about their dogs buy and use these products, the ones that don't give sh*t either beat their dogs or let them roam free

2. Reward training doesn't work when you dog is chasing livestock. Its either this or a bullet. 

People in towns that never let dogs off the lead do not need shock collars. They don't understand. Hence the vocal bunny huggers win again! 

Click to expand...

 You make a good point ..maybe the now redudant collars could be reused on the petty bureaucrats and politicians  that blight our lives!!!!


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## Pedantic (25 March 2010)

What will these people do ?

http://newsarse.com/2010/03/24/welsh-perverts-seeking-new-excuses-to-buy-electric-shock-collars/


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## Andalusianlover (25 March 2010)

I've had one for years and its been a lifesaver for my two dalmations.  One of them is "uber" clever and the other one is as thick as a plank.  The clever one on many occasions has deliberately done a runner the minute I turned my back and taken the the other one with him.  I've tried all the settings on my own hand and for years have never had to use any other setting than the warning bleep.  I cant recommend them enough. and fortunately my dogs are still with me at the ages of 12 and 10.  I did hear many years ago that some "working dog" trainers had used them at a high level to teach the dogs to come back to them in a straight line which I think is disgusting.  In the right hands these collars and fences have probably saved many a dogs life.

Idiots in corridors of power make me sick, they havent got a clue


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## Nailed (25 March 2010)

So what your saying is.. its rediculous to shock a dog to teach it the boundaries it is aloud to go to.. but its okay to shock your horse to keep it in the field.. Sorry what ****!

My nextdoor neighbour has two rotties x mastiffs. so you can imagine the size of them. They jump up at the fence.. the fence gets broken. They have had ESC on for the last two days, with the wire acrosss the top of the fence (only shocks when they jump UP at the fence) and they nolonger jump up.. the wire strip was turned off yesterday evening and they didnt jump up.. I think they learnt there lesson.

Dont be so judgemental.

Lou x


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## Tiggy1 (25 March 2010)

Bl**dy stupid. My Jack Russell would have been put down years ago if it wasn't for our dog fence.
Now we don't even have to put it in as she has learnt the boundaries of the fence and will not stray beyond them.


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## Hels_Bells (25 March 2010)

I don't really see that they're any different to giving your horse a whack on the bum if it misbehaves.   In the same way that use of the whip can be abused so can these collars but the whip isn't banned because the vast majority of people find it useful and don't abuse it.

I have never used an electric collar, but have seriously considered it esp when I got my current rescue collie.  She's so fast and once she's in "the zone" and running there is very little you can do to stop her.  We are on a large farm so it's wasn't the end of the world but if she were to stray into some of the game areas around us the keeper might want to take a shot at her if she was worrying his pheasants.  Luckily she is now fine and rarely shoots off (esp if we carry a ball!!!) but there were several times in the past when I almost went and bought one of these collars.

I think banning them is ridiculous.


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## Tinkerbee (25 March 2010)

Oh for pitys sake. 

Who comes up with these ideas?


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## Toffee44 (25 March 2010)

Nailed said:



			So what your saying is.. its rediculous to shock a dog to teach it the boundaries it is aloud to go to.. but its okay to shock your horse to keep it in the field.. Sorry what ****!

My nextdoor neighbour has two rotties x mastiffs. so you can imagine the size of them. They jump up at the fence.. the fence gets broken. They have had ESC on for the last two days, with the wire acrosss the top of the fence (only shocks when they jump UP at the fence) and they nolonger jump up.. the wire strip was turned off yesterday evening and they didnt jump up.. I think they learnt there lesson.

Dont be so judgemental.

Lou x
		
Click to expand...

If that was aimed at me I think my tired grumpy self did not make sense last night. What I meant was something along the lines of: if its acceptable to shock a horse and cattle to keep it within boundries why is it NOT acceptable to do this for a dog. Why have they targeted dog electric and not cattle, sheep, horses, rabbit, fox etc. Does that make sense?


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## perfect11s (25 March 2010)

Tinkerbee said:



			Oh for pitys sake. 

Who comes up with these ideas?
		
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 My guess is people who should have learnt a usefull trade but instead went to uni and are now infesting local and national goverments!!!


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## SpruceRI (25 March 2010)

toffee44 said:



			Yet it's ok for us to zap our horses and cattle and sheep etc to keep then within a perimeter fence or protect from harm and hazards. Don't see any one fighting that corner? This is classic ignorance of circumstances.
		
Click to expand...

Laugh not 

This will probably be the next on the list


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## _jetset_ (26 March 2010)

I have an electric shock collar and it was the only reason my English Pointer is now as well behaved and easy to recall as she is now. We bought it when she was 2 years old after losing sight of her on a walk (she got a pheasant up carried on running through fences, fields, woodland... ignorant of the fact we were shouting her). She ended up being caught on a 60mph road about 2 miles from where we had lost her  That is when I said enough was enough. 

I had done dog training with her for months and 9 times out of 10 she was fantastic to call back. But just that one time had left her in a position where she could have been killed, or caused a nasty accident for another driver. 

Like Kerilli, I used the collar on myself first on all settings and then started her training with it. This involved using the sound warning first and teaching her what would come next. It took me about a month to fully train her with it, and only 6 months later I could take the collar off and it is still in the cupboard never used since. 

She is 6 years old now and a super dog to have around


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## Mike007 (26 March 2010)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...-work,-say-call-centre-managers-201003252593/  For another viewpoint the Daily Mash.


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## qwertyuiop (26 March 2010)

Are you still allowed to buy them? Its the only way that I can keep my unruly staff and girlfriend in check and they burn out so quickly...


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## only_me (26 March 2010)

My dad sells the Invisible fence system for dogs -  a wire is set around perimeter of home and land, and dog wears a collar. If the dogs get within 10 ft of the wire they get a warning beep - you train the dogs to run away back when they hear the beep. if They continue to go closer the beeps get higher pitched (i think) and then once within 6ft of wire they get a shock.

This system is the ONLY reason my 12 year old dog is still with me - he is a beagle and as a hound he has selective hearing - more so than normal considering we live in the country and have a fair few wild hares and foxes running around!! 

They save dogs lives - if we can electric fence our fields for animals then why not dogs?!


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## Ravenwood (26 March 2010)

Andalusianlover said:



			I did hear many years ago that some "working dog" trainers had used them at a high level to teach the dogs to come back to them in a straight line which I think is disgusting.
		
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I think you might be referring to "force fetch" which is used in America.  Basically dogs who are doing high level field trials have to go out to fetch and retrieve a bird in a straight line regardless of the terrain and an electric collar is used to train them to do so.

In this country however, we are much more lenient on whether the dog goes in a straight line to fetch and bring back a bird and very few field trial trainers use an electric collar to achieve this.  We merit a dog  more on intelligence in this country!


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## imafluffybunny (26 March 2010)

We originally bought an electric collar because our Dalmation would chase Deer, we lived in Germany at the time and they are protected and Rangers have the right to shoot dogs chasing them. We then got another Dalmation when we were back in the UK and he would chase sheep, a few times wearing the collar cured that and we can now take both dogs ANYWHERE and they will come not chase livestock. I can count on one hand the amount of times we actually shocked them and even then it wasnt on full power. 

Our dogs very rarely wear the electric collars, every now and again we put them on and the BEEP gives them a reminder. I honestly think we could have lost both dogs to chasing livestock if it wasnt for these collars. 

These collars were £300, I cannot see people paying this to abuse a dog.


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## jumbyjack (27 March 2010)

I do think there is a place for the collars in the right hands, my vet's daughter saved her Husky from being PTS by using one to stop her stock chasing.  The ones that do want banning are the  type that just react to barking and it could be any dog barking, not just the one wearing the collar!

The one I have at it's lowest setting gives nothing more than a tingle, I've tried it on myself and other people and we all agree.  I don't use it as after a couple of tries I did feel it was inappropriate for my dog but I should have had one for my Husky when he was young as he was seriously dangerous around stock.  As has been said, the cost of a good SC is fairly steep and hopefully the cost would deter a casual purchaser.


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## lachlanandmarcus (27 March 2010)

This ruling will result in a lot of dead or run over dogs and probably dead livestock too. As an owner and lover of both dogs and livestock I think it is a stupid myopic decision but of course the law makers can just sound good and wont have to address the consequences of their actions. Not all dogs are at all ressponsive to food or toys in training, my Dobie had 3 weeks residential training and they couldnt do a thing with him (he was a rescue adoption. Thankfully we could afford £7000 to fence 4 acres with 6 foot mesh and electric fencing but 99.9% of people cant. 

A silly decision as I have never heard of them being widely abused and they cost a lot so arent likely to be. I hope the dead dogs trouble their consciences.


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## Doncella (27 March 2010)

WAG has too much time on its hands.
They have no one to govern and too much power.
I know I live in the Principality.


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## Theresa_F (30 March 2010)

These collars when used sensibly are a life saver.  My friends have two large ridgeback x labs - they are wonderful dogs, but when they see deer, they often just go and the collar is the only way of stopping them when they get the scent up -ridgebacks are hunting dogs.  They can also now go off lead as they hear the bleep and know to stop or it is zap time.  It has also made them stop thinking about chasing horses.

Without the collars, they would have to be kept on lead at all times, surely it is kinder to have the collar and the ability to give them a reminder to come back and be able to run free?

I sent one to my dad in Thailand for one of his ridgebacks, again with a few weeks of training, it has turned Simba from a dog that would run off to one that stops and waits when bleeped. He also thinks twice about getting into a fight with the local Thai dogs and dad can now enjoy long walks without problems with them chasing dogs and motorcycles.

Like all things they can be abused, but personally I would rather have one and a dog I can recall than to keep it constantly on the leash in case they got scent and went.


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