# 17 Stone beginner rider



## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

Where on earth would you look to advise  someone whom Weighs this much to go for a riding lesson.   They only want to learn to hack but I am at a loss. And if they took to riding what on earth could they look to buy?    Would a  clydsdale, perchon  shire be the only thing they would be looking at?  If you add tack etc is 18/19 stone even acceptable for a horse to carry?


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## Clodagh (28 June 2020)

They must have an inkling that they may be a little large!?


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## cobgoblin (28 June 2020)

I think I'd just point out that Riding schools have weight limits and leave it at that.


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## conniegirl (28 June 2020)

The highest weight limit ive ever seen at a riding school was 14st


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## Brownmare (28 June 2020)

Would driving be an option instead?


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## Cortez (28 June 2020)

Draught horses aren't necessarily able to carry vast amounts of weight. I would advise someone like that to either lose weight or look for another activity.


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## mini_b (28 June 2020)

Would wanting to ride encourage them to lose weight to do so?


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

it's for a male,  naturally thick set and muscular he has said he will get to 16 or 15.5 but I still worry about a beginner of this weight.


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

and I weighed him on my scales and he was telling the truth as I know one riding school that had a 14 stone weight limit but would go off the weight that was written down.


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## gracie.flannagan (28 June 2020)

I think that although it may be hard to hear, it is just simply not in the best interest of the animal to be ridden by someone of this size that doesn't yet know how to balance themselves or be "light" on the horse's back. It's often hard on a horse's back when "average" sized adult beginners start riding, so I have to recommend to, with regret, inform him that this just may not be the sport for him.


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			Draught horses aren't necessarily able to carry vast amounts of weight. I would advise someone like that to either lose weight or look for another activity.
		
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I suppose it's a mistaken conception that because they are18.2hh plus they  must be able to carry weight.   But a beginner is going to be a heavy unbalanced lump.


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## Cortez (28 June 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			I suppose it's a mistaken conception that because they are18.2hh plus they  must be able to carry weight.   But a beginner is going to be a heavy unbalanced lump.
		
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Draught horses are designed to pull, not carry. You'd be better off with a proper weight carrier like a heavyweight cob or heavy hunter.


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

gracie.flannagan said:



			I think that although it may be hard to hear, it is just simply not in the best interest of the animal to be ridden by someone of this size that doesn't yet know how to balance themselves or be "light" on the horse's back. It's often hard on a horse's back when "average" sized adult beginners start riding, so I have to recommend to, with regret, inform him that this just may not be the sport for him.
		
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It's not hard to hear for me,  but he is a genuine animal lover and a decent chap and would love to have a lesson as he dreamt of it as a child but it was too girly according to his family so had guitar lessons instead which he hated.   So I sort-of feel sorry for him.


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			Draught horses are designed to pull, not carry. You'd be better off with a proper weight carrier like a heavyweight cob or heavy hunter.
		
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When a horse is advertised as a weight carrier what range is that referring to?


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## Cortez (28 June 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			When a horse is advertised as a weight carrier what range is that referring to?
		
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Depends on whether it's a light, middle, or heavy weight I suppose.


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## cobgoblin (28 June 2020)

I wouldn't put that weight on my 15.3 heavyweight cob even though he has 11" of bone.


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

Heavy?
But is a 16 stone beginner ever good for a horse add the tack etc 16 is soon 17.5, 17 is 18.5 and 18 is almost 20.


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## Keith_Beef (28 June 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			Where on earth would you look to advise  someone whom Weighs this much to go for a riding lesson.   They only want to learn to hack but I am at a loss. And if they took to riding what on earth could they look to buy?    Would a  clydsdale, perchon  shire be the only thing they would be looking at?  If you add tack etc is 18/19 stone even acceptable for a horse to carry?
		
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This kind of question seems to crop up fairly often....

I'm quite out of practice with thinking in stones and pounds, so convert everything to kg.

17 stones is 108kg; that's heavier than I've ever been (105kg, back in 2010), and I usually hover between 89kg and 95kg, which are 14 stones and 15 stones, respectively. I've ridden a Clydesdale once, but all of the horses that I've ridden have been fine with my weight, sometimes riding for four hours at a time over varied terrain (road, rocky path, sand, grass, uphill and downhill, fording streams).

Often, answers to these kinds of questions bring up the subject of total novices being unbalanced and being harder work for the horse than better riders of the same weight. I've also seen claims that mules can carry heavier loads than horses, and that mules can do dressage and jumps.... 

Which leads me to wonder if a heavy person could perhaps learn on a mule, and then move to a horse after learning good balance and posture.


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

cobgoblin said:



			I wouldn't put that weight on my 15.3 heavyweight cob even though he has 11" of bone.
		
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Hi cb,  what would you class as weight though?  14 stone and we're talking a beginner here?


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## cobgoblin (28 June 2020)

Keith_Beef said:



			This kind of question seems to crop up fairly often....

I'm quite out of practice with thinking in stones and pounds, so convert everything to kg.

17 stones is 108kg; that's heavier than I've ever been (105kg, back in 2010), and I usually hover between 89kg and 95kg, which are 14 stones and 15 stones, respectively. I've ridden a Clydesdale once, but all of the horses that I've ridden have been fine with my weight, sometimes riding for four hours at a time over varied terrain (road, rocky path, sand, grass, uphill and downhill, fording streams).

Often, answers to these kinds of questions bring up the subject of total novices being unbalanced and being harder work for the horse than better riders of the same weight. I've also seen claims that mules can carry heavier loads than horses, and that mules can do dressage and jumps.... 

Which leads me to wonder if a heavy person could perhaps learn on a mule, and then move to a horse after learning good balance and posture.
		
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Mules are usually quite smallish and large people need large saddles.


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## Red-1 (28 June 2020)

I have taught several people of this weight. 

1. The horse has to be the right type. Not a pure draught, more a 3/4 or half, with the rest a TB type. So hunter type.

2. It has to be fit, and fit in the right way. I am talking one who works correctly over its back, lifting and taking weight. So, not a typical riding school type.

3. The tack has to really fit.

4. The instruction has to be good. The horse is well schooled, so the rider usually has to start with a lead rein, then lunge lessons. Many lunge lessons concentrating on how to sit before even trying to control the horse. I always say, you have to be in control of yourself before you can control the horse. 

5. The horse has to be in other work too, so not always ridden by the heavy rider. So, for one heavier to learn to ride, it might take 4-6 of that type of horse so one horse is not taking the strain. Half an hour, once a week is OK. Done 5 times, using 5 different horses, the rider improves rapidly whilst the horses are not caned.


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 June 2020)

For weight carrying ability you need short coupled and stocky. Big and rangey won't cope with carrying weight. Drafts are desgined to pull so tend to have strong front ends and weak back ends.

A short coupled maxi-cob that is fit enough through regular work should be able to cope for short periods of time doing flatwork not galloping or jumping.

Basically you need a 16hh shetland.


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## Shilasdair (28 June 2020)

Really there is no weight that is beneficial for the horse to carry, so all you skinny minnies are causing harm, too.


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## Shilasdair (28 June 2020)

Red-1 said:



			I have taught several people of this weight.

2. It has to be fit, and fit in the right way. I am talking one who works correctly over its back, lifting and taking weight. So, not a typical riding school type.
		
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   Don't know which riding schools you frequent - riding school horses are often better schooled and sounder than a lot of privately owned ones!


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## cobgoblin (28 June 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			Hi cb,  what would you class as weight though?  14 stone and we're talking a beginner here?
		
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A heavyweight cob should be able to carry 16st..that would include tack. A cob with driving conformation would carry less.

I've only known one horse that would carry your friend's weight and that is a huge ID type hunter that is owned by a very large girl, but she is a very experienced rider.

.


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## Wishfilly (28 June 2020)

FWIW, I know a few riding schools who have weight limits of 16st- although they wouldn't necessarily allow riders of this weight to do all activities. It might be worth looking, as some riding schools do have big/solid weight carrying types (not draught horses, but more like a large hunter in build, or maybe draught crosses, some large ID types might cope). It's worth looking around to see if there is anywhere that could accommodate him at that weight.

At 17st, I think it will be very hard to find a riding school who are able to help.

Horses that can comfortably carry this sort of weight are rare- finding one that would carry a beginner safely would cost £££s.

It's also worth bearing in mind that finding a comfortable saddle can be difficult for this sort of rider too!


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## cobgoblin (28 June 2020)

Shilasdair said:



			Really there is no weight that is beneficial for the horse to carry, so all you skinny minnies are causing harm, too.


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What weight are daemons then?
.


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## Keith_Beef (28 June 2020)

cobgoblin said:



			What weight are daemons then?
.
		
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The four horsemen of the apocalypse look like bags of skin and bones... hardly weigh a thing.


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## Not_so_brave_anymore (28 June 2020)

Just running the maths- 17 stone is 108kg, plus 8kg for tack etc, comes to 116kg. Which  is 20% of 580kg, and 15% of 773kg. There must exist a suitable (fit!) horse that he could walk around on for half an hour? Or have I done the numbers wrong?!


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## Red-1 (28 June 2020)

Shilasdair said:



   Don't know which riding schools you frequent - riding school horses are often better schooled and sounder than a lot of privately owned ones!
		
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I don't often frequent riding schools. I did when Mr Red was learning, and the ones for adult beginner riders were usually ridden by...beginners, and therefore were not using their cores to lift their backs and work correctly. 

Riding school horses (around here anyway) for the larger beginner riders tend to be the full draught or cob types, not the best IMO for the job of the heavier rider.


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## Pearlsasinger (28 June 2020)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Basically you need a 16hh shetland.
		
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That was a perfect description of my Westphalien Kaltblut, who thoroughly enjoyed teaching my very heavy friend,to ride, for short periods of time.  Friend had to relocate for work so the sessions had to stop.


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## Auslander (28 June 2020)

Red-1 said:



			I don't often frequent riding schools. I did when Mr Red was learning, and the ones for adult beginner riders were usually ridden by...beginners, and therefore were not using their cores to lift their backs and work correctly.

Riding school horses (around here anyway) for the larger beginner riders tend to be the full draught or cob types, not the best IMO for the job of the heavier rider.
		
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Ironically, the best horses for carrying weight, and teaching beginners on, are horses like Alf, and most people who own horses like him would die of shock at the thought of using them to teach beginners on. Alf has done a bit of schoolmastering, and he's fab - he makes life easier for himself, and his rider, by being very balanced and rhythmical. He is the ideal weight carrier, as he is tall, but not excessively tall, is short coupled and strong, with a leg at each corner, and uses his body in a way that makes carrying a rider less of a chore. He has always been worked correctly, so his muscle tone and body strength is good for an old horse. He also thinks that being a riding school donk is very suitable for a gentleman of advancing years.


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## w1bbler (28 June 2020)

Can you find somewhere with a simulator? Would give a basic feel / balance & possible incentive to loose a bit of weight.
I used to work at a trekking centre, weight limit was 16 stone for experienced riders, 15 for novices


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## ester (28 June 2020)

Most simulators have a conservative weight limit.


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## Red-1 (28 June 2020)

Auslander said:



			Ironically, the best horses for carrying weight, and teaching beginners on, are horses like Alf, and most people who own horses like him would die of shock at the thought of using them to teach beginners on. Alf has done a bit of schoolmastering, and he's fab - he makes life easier for himself, and his rider, by being very balanced and rhythmical. He is the ideal weight carrier, as he is tall, but not excessively tall, is short coupled and strong, with a leg at each corner, and uses his body in a way that makes carrying a rider less of a chore. He has always been worked correctly, so his muscle tone and body strength is good for an old horse. He also thinks that being a riding school donk is very suitable for a gentleman of advancing years.
		
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Our Charlie Horse was not in Alf's league, but he did SJ to newcomers, event to novice and had some BD points. He was also used to working correctly, loved a newbie to look after in the school. He was ID X TB, almost 17hh, and had thrown with plenty of bone. 

I usually teach first on the lead rein then lunge, as on the lunge I can keep the horse working into side reins, so keep the back working and core engaged. That is also easier for the novice to learn on as the paces stay more elastic and less bone-shaking. Like Alf, I am sure.


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

It does make you wonder when you see some larger folk riding at what points they think they are too heavy.   Or see riders trying to say they ride light,  but 17 stone is 17 stone whichever way you say it but was does ride light mean or is it just a way of making the rider feel better.  X flipping  predictive text,


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## cobgoblin (28 June 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			It does make you wonder when you see some larger folk riding at what points they think they a tee too heavy.   On French see riders trying to say they ride light,  but 17 stone is 17 stone whichever way you say it but was does ride light mean or is it just a way of making the rider feel better.  X
		
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A better way of saying it is that beginners ride heavier than their weight because they are unbalanced whereas an experienced rider rides at their weight, in balance.
.


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## Wishfilly (28 June 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			It does make you wonder when you see some larger folk riding at what points they think they a tee too heavy.   On French see riders trying to say they ride light,  but 17 stone is 17 stone whichever way you say it but was does ride light mean or is it just a way of making the rider feel better.  X
		
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I don't think anyone can ride lighter than their actual weight (plus weight of tack etc) but an experienced, balanced and generally fit rider of any weight is going to be easier to carry than someone unbalance/lacking core strength/inexperienced of the same weight. E.g. if someone is landing heavily in the saddle, bouncing a lot or is leaning/putting more weight on one side, that will be much harder for the horse.


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			I don't think anyone can ride lighter than their actual weight (plus weight of tack etc) but an experienced, balanced and generally fit rider of any weight is going to be easier to carry than someone unbalance/lacking core strength/inexperienced of the same weight. E.g. if someone is landing heavily in the saddle, bouncing a lot or is leaning/putting more weight on one side, that will be much harder for the horse.
		
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Maybe we should ban rides light and change it to be 17 stone but rides like a heavyweight lump so more like 20 stone.


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## Wishfilly (28 June 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			Maybe we should ban rides light and change it to be 17 stone but rides like a heavyweight lump so more like 20 stone.
		
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Yeah, I do think "rides light" implies that you can ride lighter than your actual weight- which of course isn't true. But an unbalanced heavy rider is going to potentially cause more damage than a balanced one (depending on the activities being done and so on).


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## cobgoblin (28 June 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			Maybe we should ban rides light and change it to be 17 stone but rides like a heavyweight lump so more like 20 stone.
		
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Try saying that on Facebook  
.


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## Auslander (28 June 2020)

I don't take "riding light" to mean riding a stone lighter than one's actual weight. To me, riding light means riding in a balanced fashion, being aware of the impact you have on the horse, and doing your best to make yourself the most comfortable load possible. I@m no lightweight, but I can say with my hand on my heart that my horse finds me easier to cart around than someone lighter who slops around, doesn't sit straight, and crashes onto his back every time their arse hits the saddle.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (28 June 2020)

I find the weight limits in respect to men ridiculous. They naturally weigh more no matter how tall etc they are.

Kia carried me at over 15st no bother and he was 14.3hh he also carried my OH who at the time was around the same but he was 6.4. He was a D x Appy. Here is a few pics I recently shared as no one could believe a 6ft4 15.5st bloke could ride a 14.3 and be carried fine.


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## Littlebear (28 June 2020)

I used to have 2 horses my partner who is slightly higher in weight than mentioned used to ride now and again, one was a 16’1 Suffolk x and the other was a 16’3 Irish x
Both happily wandered around with him on board 
I’ve worked at several riding schools and the heaviest weight I’ve seen allowed is 15 stone


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## laura_nash (28 June 2020)

I used to work at a trekking centre that would sometimes take riders of that weight many years ago.  They seem to be still going though I don't know what their policies are these days: https://noltonstables.com/ .  They used to have some quiet, fit, ID and ID x TB hunter types that could cope with heavier riders for short periods.

ETA - I feel old now looking at that website and seeing James as an instructor there, he was about 8 years old when I was there!


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

I will ask if ask if he can get to 15  at one and take it from there. 

Do you really think that many riders are aware of their real weight or knock off a stone or so off?  I saw a lad who looked rather heavy,  her legs splayed out and her belly was much larger than her boob's.   The horse wobbled at the mount block and was swishing the tail and napping.   It was a fine 16hh is that type and this was at an arena hire specifically for jumping.  I walked away as if I had stayed I would have ended up being banned from their.


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## ester (28 June 2020)

Not sure the significance of belly to boob ratio.


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 June 2020)

To me riding light and riding heavy is like carrying live weight to dead weight. A live weight will help hold themselves up, a dead weight just flops and seems much heavier to carry even though both would weigh the same on a scale.


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## MiniMilton (28 June 2020)

I think if you keep lessons short, no more than 30 mins, then a large Irish Cob type would cope very well. 

Back in my hunting days I do recall a larger woman, I'm guessing minimum 16 stone, hunting an equally chunky cob twice a week. The cob never looked like he struggled. An extra stone really isn't that much more. 
She always stood out to me because they never once looked out of breath while I was panting heavily with a redish/purplish hue to my face. 

If the beginner rider did shorter lessons more often, then increase as their balance developed I don't see a huge problem.


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## Cinnamontoast (28 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			Draught horses aren't necessarily able to carry vast amounts of weight. I would advise someone like that to either lose weight or look for another activity.
		
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This. Our local riding schools have a strict upper limit of 15st. I’ve known some RS have scales!


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## windand rain (28 June 2020)

Very large people ride highland ponies, I would guess a 14.2 old fashioned garron would carry him perhaps if thats too short then a percheron might be an option or a suffolk type something with a shortish back short flat boned cannons and good feet. Big horses tend to have longer legs and longer backs which tend to be less able to carry weight. A few simulator lessons to improve balance and core strength might make riding nearer possible


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## Nari (28 June 2020)

My RID would have carried him even as a beginner, he was a proper weight carrier and correctly schooled to engage and lift himself. The only problem would have been he was far too sharp and didn't tolerate mistakes - the rider would have either learned very quickly or ended up very broken! But there must still be horses out there of his stamp (the substantial RID, not the lighter weight sportier looking ones that are now so popular now but to me look more like the old IDxTB of 40 years ago) with a calmer nature. What do larger men hunt on nowadays? If horses are still out there that can take a large man for a full day hunting then there are almost certainly ones that can manage 30 minute lessons for a beginner!


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## charterline (28 June 2020)

Is he rugby player type, heavier but fit, or just a larger man?

If he’s not fit, maybe suggest that he takes up yoga/Pilates and some CV activity


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

charterline said:



			Is he rugby player type, heavier but fit, or just a larger man?

If he’s not fit, maybe suggest that he takes up yoga/Pilates and some CV activity
		
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He's a hooker build, very strong and quite fast over a short distance slightly grainer than a bull terrier but basically the human equivalent lol


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			He's a hooker build, very strong and quite fast over a short distance slightly grainer than a bull terrier but basically the human equivalent lol
		
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That should read brainer !


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## charterline (28 June 2020)

So he’s overall a fit bloke?


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

charterline said:



			So he’s overall a fit bloke?
		
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Yes but a total beginner horse rider


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## zaminda (28 June 2020)

The riding school I taught at did have one horse that had a weight limit of 18 stone. Sadly the horse was eventually PTS, but was well over 25! Tell your friend to try an army saddle club, they are set up for larger men and teach lots of that size.


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

Thsnk


zaminda said:



			The riding school I taught at did have one horse that had a weight limit of 18 stone. Sadly the horse was eventually PTS, but was well over 25! Tell your friend to try an army saddle club, they are set up for larger men and teach lots of that size.
		
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Thank you off to find an army saddle club in the east/west mids or staffs Warwick Leicester areas


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## YorksG (28 June 2020)

Our old Clyde mare much preferred to have my ex OH ride her. He was a novice, 6'2" 15 stone ex rugby player. Sister was her other main rider and I occasionally rode her. I'm 5'6" and weighed about 9 stone. Sister and I made her work, the OH was much more inclined to let amble along at her own pace,  marching on was not something she thought she should do😁


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## Reri1826 (28 June 2020)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			To me riding light and riding heavy is like carrying live weight to dead weight. A live weight will help hold themselves up, a dead weight just flops and seems much heavier to carry even though both would weigh the same on a scale.
		
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I think this is key- babies get really heavy to carry, then they strengthen in their cores and are much easier to carry than before, cause they carry themselves better and aren’t a dead weight.


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## thefarsideofthefield (28 June 2020)

When I was a working pupil at a very large riding school in Surrey the proprietor had a strict weight limit of 12 stone ,fully clothed , and there were absolutely NO exceptions . If she suspected that a new client was not being entirely honest about their weight , or that a current client had gone over the weight , out would come the scales . If the person refused to get on the scales then they didn't get on the horse . We had some big horses in the school too , including a 17hh HW hunter type but she was adamant that no horse should be asked to carry more than that weight . Her argument was that , regardless of whether the rider was experienced or novice or the horse was young/old/ long backed/short backed/ fit/unfit/green/schooled or however it carried itself , at the end of the day you were placing a 12 stone weight , on a very small area , on the back of an animal whose back was not designed to bear weight . If you wanted a horse to have a long ridden career then you didn't over load it .
I remember one long term client being asked to get on the scales to verify her weight and was subsequently found to be over the limit . She was told she wouldn't be able to ride again until she lost weight . The proprietor was as pleasant as possible in the circumstances but the client was understandably upset - I mean there's really no nice way of saying it , is there ? The client was arguing that horses X  and Y could carry her and that if X or Y appeared to be struggling then she would get off .
The proprietor asked the lady if she had ever injured her own back . The client responded that actually she had and so therefore she would of course be extra sensitive to the horse being in discomfort .
' So when you injured your own back ' asked the proprietor ' when did you first become aware of it ?'
A blank look from the client .
' I mean ' explained the proprietor ' did you feel the pain BEFORE you injured it ?'
'Don't be silly ' said the client .
' So what you're saying ' pointed out the proprietor ' that by the time you felt pain you had already sustained the injury  ? '

Would your friend ( the animal lover ) hanker after taking up any other new activity with the knowledge that it might cause damage or injury to HIS own back or joints ? Sorry - but ( IMO ) 17 stone is way too heavy for any horse .


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## Cortez (28 June 2020)

I have in the past sourced hunters for an extremely wealthy gentleman who weighed around 18 stone. The gentleman was an absolutely horrible rider, money was no object and he bought some of the most lovely made hunters I've ever seen. He went through on average 3 - 5 horses a season, and always had to buy new horses each year. He absolutely ruined at least 15 horses. I stopped looking for horses for him after the first year, it was sickening to be a part of.


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## SatansLittleHelper (28 June 2020)

I'm tall (5'11") and approx 15.7st.
My local riding school where I have just restarted lessons has a limit of 16st. 
My 15.2 heavy loan cob could carry me and someone else lol...he doesn't even break into a sweat and he's currently fat 😳😳 I do ride in a light synthetic saddle rather than leather.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (28 June 2020)

thefarsideofthefield said:



			When I was a working pupil at a very large riding school in Surrey the proprietor had a strict weight limit of 12 stone ,fully clothed , and there were absolutely NO exceptions . If she suspected that a new client was not being entirely honest about their weight , or that a current client had gone over the weight , out would come the scales . If the person refused to get on the scales then they didn't get on the horse . We had some big horses in the school too , including a 17hh HW hunter type but she was adamant that no horse should be asked to carry more than that weight . Her argument was that , regardless of whether the rider was experienced or novice or the horse was young/old/ long backed/short backed/ fit/unfit/green/schooled or however it carried itself , at the end of the day you were placing a 12 stone weight , on a very small area , on the back of an animal whose back was not designed to bear weight . If you wanted a horse to have a long ridden career then you didn't over load it .
I remember one long term client being asked to get on the scales to verify her weight and was subsequently found to be over the limit . She was told she wouldn't be able to ride again until she lost weight . The proprietor was as pleasant as possible in the circumstances but the client was understandably upset - I mean there's really no nice way of saying it , is there ? The client was arguing that horses X  and Y could carry her and that if X or Y appeared to be struggling then she would get off .
The proprietor asked the lady if she had ever injured her own back . The client responded that actually she had and so therefore she would of course be extra sensitive to the horse being in discomfort .
' So when you injured your own back ' asked the proprietor ' when did you first become aware of it ?'
A blank look from the client .
' I mean ' explained the proprietor ' did you feel the pain BEFORE you injured it ?'
'Don't be silly ' said the client .
' So what you're saying ' pointed out the proprietor ' that by the time you felt pain you had already sustained the injury  ? '

Would your friend ( the animal lover ) hanker after taking up any other new activity with the knowledge that it might cause damage or injury to HIS own back or joints ? Sorry - but ( IMO ) 17 stone is way too heavy for any horse .
		
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She sounds a lovely person not. Also 12st would rule out most men not stick thin so you are discriminating against the vast majority of male riders. The heavyweight hunter is described as a horse able to carry in excess of 14st and if you look at the men riding them I doubt many are that limit or below and they aren’t fat.


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## AdorableAlice (28 June 2020)

I have/have had, some weight carrying horses. My much missed grey horse would carry the gentleman easily, but these type of horses are rare now and unlikely to find themselves in a riding school.  He was carrying 15 stone plus his tack in this picture and aged 6. 18h and still growing. At 9 he was a lot deeper,  massively powerful and thankfully had manners to spare. He would have been kind enough to carry a beginner but his movement was so massive the beginner would have been launched on every trot stride.  He was shown as a HW at county level and the ride judges loved him but always commented on his paces.  I used a neck strap when he was learning changes, his step through was like sitting on a rocket launcher and he did dump me in the dressage arena in his first test with a change in it.

My feral cart horse would also carry weight, but would panic and dump anyone light or heavy, as soon as the rider lost balance.  He also likes to travel on his forehand if allowed (he is out of a pure Shire mare, so bred to pull) so would find a big weight more hard work than than the grey horse.  The cart horse is 17h.   My lovely maxi cob, only 15,2 would also carry the gentleman beginner and be absolutely ideal for him to learn on, finding another one in her mould would take some doing.  I have only seen one like her recently and that was with Robert Oliver who wanted a small mortgage for it ! 

 Years ago many breeders put HIS stallions on their cart mares and produced proper heavyweight quality horses, sadly those days are gone.  If I was a lot younger I would be very tempted to breed from the maxi cob.


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## SatansLittleHelper (28 June 2020)

Wow AA, that grey is some horse..!!!!!!!


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## AdorableAlice (28 June 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			She sounds a lovely person not. Also 12st would rule out most men not stick thin so you are discriminating against the vast majority of male riders. The heavyweight hunter is described as a horse able to carry in excess of 14st and if you look at the men riding them I doubt many are that limit or below and they aren’t fat.
		
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Open point to pointers carry 12.7lb over 3 miles plus.  Red Rum, who was a small horse carried 12st to win.  Maybe we have got used to seeing petite ladies riding enormous horses and forgotten that horses can carry much more weight if they had to.


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## Cortez (28 June 2020)

Ooh, just remembered: I once found a horse for Pavarotti! This would have been 25 years ago, and again money was no object. The horse we got for him was a lot like AA's grey, but I must have tried at least 30 horses to find him, and he cost several 10's of thousands.


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## AdorableAlice (28 June 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Wow AA, that grey is some horse..!!!!!!!
		
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He was an Embla George x Embla Daisy (Colman) . Had him as a weanling thinking he would be 16.2.  Which he he was - at 2 !  He was the sweetest boy and a joy to bring up. Lost to colic at just 13 and right in his prime.


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## cobgoblin (28 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			Ooh, just remembered: I once found a horse for Pavarotti! This would have been 25 years ago, and again money was no object. The horse we got for him was a lot like AA's grey, but I must have tried at least 30 horses to find him, and he cost several 10's of thousands.
		
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How much did Pavarotti weigh? 
.


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## Cortez (28 June 2020)

cobgoblin said:



			How much did Pavarotti weigh?
.
		
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More than 18 stone.....and the horse had to be safe to lead his child's pony from. I never met him, but he did send a video of him riding in Italy and leading the kid on the pony (and a rather sweet note and a gift).


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## Pearlsasinger (28 June 2020)

I am sure that most police and cavalry horses regularly carry  a lot more than 12 st!  The military saddles alone weigh goodness knows how much - far more than the usual RS horse's saddle.


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## thefarsideofthefield (28 June 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			She sounds a lovely person not. Also 12st would rule out most men not stick thin so you are discriminating against the vast majority of male riders. The heavyweight hunter is described as a horse able to carry in excess of 14st and if you look at the men riding them I doubt many are that limit or below and they aren’t fat.
		
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She was quite nice actually - but she was definitely something of a battle axe . They were her horses and that was her view , they worked hard and she wanted them to have a long and healthy working life . We had liveries on the yard who were over 12st but she did not tell people with their own horses what to do .
I know men of all shapes and weights who might fancy a sit on a horse , but if I personally felt that they were too heavy then , regardless of whether it may be seen as ' discriminating against the vast majority of male riders ' goes , I , personally , would be inclined to put the welfare of the horse before the feelings of the rider . I also would not agree that ' most men ' would have to be stick thin to be under 12 stone ! My OH  is 5' 11" and a very fit and muscular 11st . Lucky him ? Hell no - he competes in endurance events and spends hours training and watches what he eats  because that's what his sport/hobby requires . He wants to be fit enough to enjoy his sport - but if he isn't - then the only person that suffers as a consequence is him . 
I am 5' 10' and no stick insect myself , I have to work hard at maintaining a healthy weight but as a rider I do try really hard , because I feel that it is MY responsibility towards my horses to maintain an acceptable weight because they don't get any say in the matter. Nobody is monitoring me but if I felt that I was too heavy for my horses then I would either lose weight or stop riding . This is my opinion - every one will have their own ' red line'.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (28 June 2020)

It’s honestly a horrible thing being judged because you don’t fit the perceived expectation of petite and overhorsed. I was told that I was too fat for Kia when I was about 10.5st and a size 12 because god forbid there was a belly roll poking through my 28’ jodhs 🙄 God knows what they would have though seeing him carting me as a size 18/20 and 15 odd st across 20+ miles of common riding pulling the arms off me and living every second of it. I’m 5ft1 and short coupled with long legs for my height (my conformation is terrible 🤣) and I’m hourglass shaped so heavy chested with a more than adequate behind (even as a size ten) which I’m very honest about. I’ve always been thought to be heavier than I am. I don’t even look thin at 9.5st in size 10 clothes 🤷🏼‍♀️ But people don’t really have a clue what 9/10/11/12st looks like on the real world. It looks different on everyone.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (28 June 2020)

thefarsideofthefield said:



			She was quite nice actually - but she was definitely something of a battle axe . They were her horses and that was her view , they worked hard and she wanted them to have a long and healthy working life . We had liveries on the yard who were over 12st but she did not tell people with their own horses what to do .
I know men of all shapes and weights who might fancy a sit on a horse , but if I personally felt that they were too heavy then , regardless of whether it may be seen as ' discriminating against the vast majority of male riders ' goes , I , personally , would be inclined to put the welfare of the horse before the feelings of the rider . I also would not agree that ' most men ' would have to be stick thin to be under 12 stone ! My OH  is 5' 11" and a very fit and muscular 11st . Lucky him ? Hell no - he competes in endurance events and spends hours training and watches what he eats  because that's what his sport/hobby requires . He wants to be fit enough to enjoy his sport - but if he isn't - then the only person that suffers as a consequence is him .
I am 5' 10' and no stick insect myself , I have to work hard at maintaining a healthy weight but as a rider I do try really hard , because I feel that it is MY responsibility towards my horses to maintain an acceptable weight because they don't get any say in the matter. Nobody is monitoring me but if I felt that I was too heavy for my horses then I would either lose weight or stop riding . This is my opinion - every one will have their own ' red line'.
		
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The problem is this ‘perceived’ welfare issue. You ‘perceive‘ there is a welfare issue because someone is over 12st. I very much doubt my old boy would have been going round common ridings in his 30s when he was in his teens in the pics I have put above if there had been a welfare issue.

I am a very forthright person, so if anyone asked me to step on scales because they perceived I was over the limit even though I knew I wasn’t I’d skelp them round the head with the scales.

This is me in size 28jodhs and a size 12 shirt after sweating my ass off riding for three hours and doing the final canter on my 30+ yr old heart horse. Don’t look light Enough do I?



This is a subject that does people harm, I have seen people mentally scarred by other people’s perceptions.

ETA I bought this picture before anyone reports it 👌🏼


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## conniegirl (29 June 2020)

People would be horrified by how much i ask my 13.2hh welshie to cart round.
Mind you he doesnt seem to have an issue with it When he is carting my fat arse up some fairly steep hills with no brakes!


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## SatansLittleHelper (29 June 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			It’s honestly a horrible thing being judged because you don’t fit the perceived expectation of petite and overhorsed. I was told that I was too fat for Kia when I was about 10.5st and a size 12 because god forbid there was a belly roll poking through my 28’ jodhs 🙄 God knows what they would have though seeing him carting me as a size 18/20 and 15 odd st across 20+ miles of common riding pulling the arms off me and living every second of it. I’m 5ft1 and short coupled with long legs for my height (my conformation is terrible 🤣) and I’m hourglass shaped so heavy chested with a more than adequate behind (even as a size ten) which I’m very honest about. I’ve always been thought to be heavier than I am. I don’t even look thin at 9.5st in size 10 clothes 🤷🏼‍♀️ But people don’t really have a clue what 9/10/11/12st looks like on the real world. It looks different on everyone.
		
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Exactly...I'm 15st 7 but am 5' 11" so nobody ever thinks I weigh that much.
Not the best pic but me with my young lad last year...I was 15.9 then


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## JJS (29 June 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			The problem is this ‘perceived’ welfare issue. You ‘perceive‘ there is a welfare issue because someone is over 12st. I very much doubt my old boy would have been going round common ridings in his 30s when he was in his teens in the pics I have put above if there had been a welfare issue.

I am a very forthright person, so if anyone asked me to step on scales because they perceived I was over the limit even though I knew I wasn’t I’d skelp them round the head with the scales.

This is me in size 28jodhs and a size 12 shirt after sweating my ass off riding for three hours and doing the final canter on my 30+ yr old heart horse. Don’t look light Enough do I?
View attachment 50785


This is a subject that does people harm, I have seen people mentally scarred by other people’s perceptions.

ETA I bought this picture before anyone reports it 👌🏼
		
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conniegirl said:



			People would be horrified by how much i ask my 13.2hh welshie to cart round.
Mind you he doesnt seem to have an issue with it When he is carting my fat arse up some fairly steep hills with no brakes!
View attachment 50786

Click to expand...




SatansLittleHelper said:



			Exactly...I'm 15st 7 but am 5' 11" so nobody ever thinks I weigh that much.
Not the best pic but me with my young lad last year...I was 15.9 then
	View attachment 50787

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But the difference is that none of you are unbalanced beginners (nor do any of you actually look too big for your horses) 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## Red-1 (29 June 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Exactly...I'm 15st 7 but am 5' 11" so nobody ever thinks I weigh that much.
Not the best pic but me with my young lad last year...I was 15.9 then
	View attachment 50787

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This one did make me smile. So, fully dressed, you would have been the dreaded 16 stone. It is a poor do when I look at your photo there and think that there are some people who think that no horse could carry you.

I guess it goes back to the fact that we all look at life through our own personal experience. If some people are small, they think that is the norm. Not that I agree with some of the sights I see, with people obviously too large. Like that lady who took a poor TB on the common ride, whose photo hit the press. It is about the horse using itself correctly to use the core and lift the back when carrying heavier weights, being suitably fit, plus the tack fitting. Beginner riders do make mistakes, but good teaching can minimise that. 

Police horses carry big men, especially they did 20 years ago when most Police Officers were men. There was a 'weight limit' for new starters, can't recollect actually getting anyone to step on the scales though. Once they were in, they rarely looked the same shape 20 years on!


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## teddypops (29 June 2020)

I worked at an equestrian centre that didn’t really have a weight limit. There were ID’s, shire x TB’s, highlands and fjords who all could carry weight. I’m amazed at riding schools having a 14stone limit as that’s not heavy for a man. My husband is 5’11” and skinny, he weighs 13.5stone!


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## Gingerwitch (29 June 2020)

Hi


SatansLittleHelper said:



			I'm tall (5'11") and approx 15.7st.
My local riding school where I have just restarted lessons has a limit of 16st.
My 15.2 heavy loan cob could carry me and someone else lol...he doesn't even break into a sweat and he's currently fat 😳😳 I do ride in a light synthetic saddle rather than leather.
		
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Slh - what area are you in and if a 100 mile radius of Burton on Trent could you pm me the place. Thanks


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## 2ndtimearound (29 June 2020)

When they are back open again, Cannock Chase Trekking Centre has a weight limit of 16 stone and a few weight carriers (they do lessons as well as treks). Obviously, he’ll still have to lose a little. It’s a 35 to 45 minute drive from Burton.


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## conniegirl (29 June 2020)

JJS said:



			But the difference is that none of you are unbalanced beginners (nor do any of you actually look too big for your horses) 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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Not a beginner but I am over the proposed 12st limit an he isnt exactly a huge hunter or a weight carrying type


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## Goldenstar (29 June 2020)

We have to wonder if a twelve stone weight limit is used how any average man can ever learn to ride .


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## Gloi (29 June 2020)

conniegirl said:



			People would be horrified by how much i ask my 13.2hh welshie to cart round.
Mind you he doesnt seem to have an issue with it When he is carting my fat arse up some fairly steep hills with no brakes!
View attachment 50786

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It takes me back to my early teens (early 1970s) and what we made our ponies put up with.
We were a gang of pony mad friends. Some could afford ponies , some just ride at the school. On nice days we would get together and so we could all go out on a hack (read day long expedition sometimes) , we used to ride bareback , 2 to a pony, any others on bikes to swap over part way. It showed how tough the little beasts were. Mine was a 13.1 Fell type and carrying two strapping teenagers never seemed to tire him and none of them ever seemed worse for wear for it.


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## Gingerwitch (29 June 2020)

AdorableAlice said:



			I have/have had, some weight carrying horses. My much missed grey horse would carry the gentleman easily, but these type of horses are rare now and unlikely to find themselves in a riding school.  He was carrying 15 stone plus his tack in this picture and aged 6. 18h and still growing. At 9 he was a lot deeper,  massively powerful and thankfully had manners to spare. He would have been kind enough to carry a beginner but his movement was so massive the beginner would have been launched on every trot stride.  He was shown as a HW at county level and the ride judges loved him but always commented on his paces.  I used a neck strap when he was learning changes, his step through was like sitting on a rocket launcher and he did dump me in the dressage arena in his first test with a change in it.

My feral cart horse would also carry weight, but would panic and dump anyone light or heavy, as soon as the rider lost balance.  He also likes to travel on his forehand if allowed (he is out of a pure Shire mare, so bred to pull) so would find a big weight more hard work than than the grey horse.  The cart horse is 17h.   My lovely maxi cob, only 15,2 would also carry the gentleman beginner and be absolutely ideal for him to learn on, finding another one in her mould would take some doing.  I have only seen one like her recently and that was with Robert Oliver who wanted a small mortgage for it !

Years ago many breeders put HIS stallions on their cart mares and produced proper heavyweight quality horses, sadly those days are gone.  If I was a lot younger I would be very tempted to breed from the maxi cob.

View attachment 50778
View attachment 50779
View attachment 50778
View attachment 50779
View attachment 50780

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What a stunning grey, and sorry your never too old to put some good genes back in the pool.  
Wonder where side saddle would fit in with all this ?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (29 June 2020)

JJS said:



			But the difference is that none of you are unbalanced beginners (nor do any of you actually look too big for your horses) 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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i was told in that picture I was too fat for him. I needed to slim down for his sake.


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## Lillian_paddington (29 June 2020)

Isn’t the difference that the 12st weight limit was for a riding school, and those objecting have privately owned horses? Riding school horses might do 4 hours of work a day, almost exclusively with beginners. There is a world of difference between a good 16st rider on their own horse, who can school the horse to be able to carry their weight correctly, and (I assume) only rides once a day, and several heavier riding school clients who all allow the horse to hollow and fail to carry weight correctly, while falling heavily on the horse in trot as they have not learned a smooth rising trot yet.


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## TotalMadgeness (29 June 2020)

I'd maybe start him on a simulator to learn balance/rising trot...


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## Goldenstar (29 June 2020)

For a while I ran a riding school we had three weight carriers .
a 14.3 coloured section D type really good back easily carried an big man in a group lesson .
A TB tall horse mature very good back did his work daily and well he left us as an 18yo to go to a client for her husband to hack he was lovely .
Someone persuaded the boss we needed a CB so one arrived it had a back like a cab horse and was a waste of hay .
Conformation is key to weight carrying .


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## jnb (29 June 2020)

SOME - note i say SOME! of the judgemental phrases used in this thread are the reason people like me agonise for hours about posting pictures. Anyone who has never struggled with their weight or been on the receiving end of comments like these will NEVER understand what I mean.
I doubt there are many men riding under 12 stone, and I bet those of you size 8s/10s would be surprised how many female riders are over 12 stone too. I've just lost nearly 5 stone so I can ride my baby cob, I am still way over this 12 stone cut off. I'm having a weight crisis and struggling now & I'm more terrified of putting it all back on as it's nearly killed me getting it off.
And I think this pic summarises how i feel about myself. It might help those of you who can't/won't understand how hard an issue weight is, to understand.
I wish people would see the human inside the fat.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (29 June 2020)

jnb said:



			SOME - note i say SOME! of the judgemental phrases used in this thread are the reason people like me agonise for hours about posting pictures. Anyone who has never struggled with their weight or been on the receiving end of comments like these will NEVER understand what I mean.
I doubt there are many men riding under 12 stone, and I bet those of you size 8s/10s would be surprised how many female riders are over 12 stone too. I've just lost nearly 5 stone so I can ride my baby cob, I am still way over this 12 stone cut off. I'm having a weight crisis and struggling now & I'm more terrified of putting it all back on as it's nearly killed me getting it off.
And I think this pic summarises how i feel about myself. It might help those of you who can't/won't understand how hard an issue weight is, to understand.
I wish people would see the human inside the fat.
	View attachment 50792

Click to expand...

we all fluctuate in weight. I’m at my heaviest right now in about three years. Over the 12st mark at least. Medical issues and inability to investigate at the moment are not being kind to me but you persevere. I’ve always been told I look heavier than I am. However at my heaviest I got told I carried it well 🤷🏼‍♀️ Only because it was evenly spread out all over me, I was like a bowling pin 😅 weight struggles are hard and people who don’t have to worry about it can be harsh critics and make the harshest critic (ourselves normally) even harsher.

Be kind to yourself you are doing great and keep going at your own pace x


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## jnb (29 June 2020)

No one could hate me and my weight more than I hate myself. 
If I could wave a magic wand and be able to never eat again I would. But you cannot give up eating like you can give up alcohol or smoking. 
It hurts and angers me so much when people say, "well just lose weight then". If only they knew the internal conversations I have with myself about every single thing I eat, until the control slips and I stop listening to myself.


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## Pearlsasinger (29 June 2020)

I volunteer with a RDA group who takes adult riders with Learning Disabililties, most of the riders are not well balanced and even those who are reasonable riders take a few sessions to get back into the swing of things at the beginning of each season (we only ride in spring/summer months).  The horses cope with no problems at all, over the years many of them have been used to hunt in the winter and WH in the summer because they are not just used for beginners.  That, of course, is what good RS do, vary the horses' work.


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## cobgoblin (29 June 2020)

Riding schools that have a weight limit are not 'judging' anyone, they are simply protecting their horses and livelihood. Plus true weight carriers are harder to find, more expensive to buy and cost more to keep, but at a regular riding school no one is going to want to pay more for their lessons because they need a weight carrier. Just as nobody wants to pay more for clothing in a large size, even if the clothes take twice as much material. 
.


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## Keith_Beef (29 June 2020)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I am sure that most police and cavalry horses regularly carry  a lot more than 12 st!  The military saddles alone weigh goodness knows how much - far more than the usual RS horse's saddle.
		
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Yes, if I could spare the time, I'd dig through some books about the history of cavalry and find out how much weight of kit (tack, camping gear, rations, water, weapons and ammunition), in addition to the rider, a horse would have carried in the Napoleonic and Boer wars, and in WWI and WWII.


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## Cinnamontoast (29 June 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Exactly...I'm 15st 7 but am 5' 11" so nobody ever thinks I weigh that much.
Not the best pic but me with my young lad last year...I was 15.9 then
	View attachment 50787

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You look a lot lighter than that. I’m pretty sure your lad can carry you fine!


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## cobgoblin (29 June 2020)

Keith_Beef said:



			Yes, if I could spare the time, I'd dig through some books about the history of cavalry and find out how much weight of kit (tack, camping gear, rations, water, weapons and ammunition), in addition to the rider, a horse would have carried in the Napoleonic and Boer wars, and in WWI and WWII.
		
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I'm sure the horses carried a great deal... They were also 'expendable'!


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## scats (29 June 2020)

The 12 stone rule seems a bit over the top.  There are many, many horses out there who would be capable of carrying 12 stone without an issue.

I can see a riding school having a limit of say 16 stone if they didn’t have the right type of horses, but most riding schools nowadays do try to have one or two weight carriers on the yard.


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## thefarsideofthefield (29 June 2020)

Lillian_paddington said:



			Isn’t the difference that the 12st weight limit was for a riding school, and those objecting have privately owned horses? Riding school horses might do 4 hours of work a day, almost exclusively with beginners. There is a world of difference between a good 16st rider on their own horse, who can school the horse to be able to carry their weight correctly, and (I assume) only rides once a day, and several heavier riding school clients who all allow the horse to hollow and fail to carry weight correctly, while falling heavily on the horse in trot as they have not learned a smooth rising trot yet.
		
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Exactly this !
I'm slightly bemused as to why some people have jumped on the 12st bandwagon . Where does it say that that's the universal limit ? Who has said that you shouldn't ride if you're over 12st ? If you read my original post it says that I used to work in a RC where the owner imposed a weight limit of 12st . That was my experience and I shared it . I didn't say it was my rule , my opinion or even that I agreed with it . Other people have posted that they know of establishments with a limit of 14/15/16 stone - so there are obviously lots of different opinions on the subject .
Your horses welfare ( IMO ) is your responsibility because , as I said previously he doesn't get a say in the weight of the rider he is asked to carry , you have to make that judgement . So if, as his/her rider , you are confident that your horse can carry you comfortably then saddle up and enjoy your riding .


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## Keith_Beef (29 June 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			The problem is this ‘perceived’ welfare issue. You ‘perceive‘ there is a welfare issue because someone is over 12st. I very much doubt my old boy would have been going round common ridings in his 30s when he was in his teens in the pics I have put above if there had been a welfare issue.

I am a very forthright person, so if anyone asked me to step on scales because they perceived I was over the limit even though I knew I wasn’t I’d skelp them round the head with the scales.

This is me in size 28jodhs and a size 12 shirt after sweating my ass off riding for three hours and doing the final canter on my 30+ yr old heart horse. Don’t look light Enough do I?
View attachment 50785


This is a subject that does people harm, I have seen people mentally scarred by other people’s perceptions.

ETA I bought this picture before anyone reports it 👌🏼
		
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I wish you'd put that picture inside a spoiler, with a warning to put on sunglasses before viewing!

No need for a high-viz jacket with that clobber!


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## cobgoblin (29 June 2020)

scats said:



			The 12 stone rule seems a bit over the top.  There are many, many horses out there who would be capable of carrying 12 stone without an issue.

I can see a riding school having a limit of say 16 stone if they didn’t have the right type of horses, but most riding schools nowadays do try to have one or two weight carriers on the yard.
		
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They are not private horses that do very little work with the same rider on board. Riding schools have the absolute right to protect their horses and business in any way they see fit. 
It's good that so many have their horses' welfare in mind. 
.


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## scats (29 June 2020)

cobgoblin said:



			They are not private horses that do very little work with the same rider on board. Riding schools have the absolute right to protect their horses and business in any way they see fit. 
It's good that so many have their horses' welfare in mind. 
.
		
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Fair enough.  I do actually strongly agree with weight limits for horses particularly horses like riding school horses who may be carrying lots of different abilities for many hours a day.  But I still do think 12 stone is probably at the lower end of the scale.


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## sbloom (29 June 2020)

Just as a thought, quite a few people wanting, and struggling, to lose weight, have some executive function issues, worth looking up, there is some help out there.  Not read the whole thread but saddle size is an issue, weight carriers are so often short backed and even if a big horse can't take more than a 17.5, so the PSI under the saddle too high, and the ability to balance the saddle correctly much reduced.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (29 June 2020)

Keith_Beef said:



			I wish you'd put that picture inside a spoiler, with a warning to put on sunglasses before viewing!

No need for a high-viz jacket with that clobber!
		
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lol nope but it all looks fab with the show jacket on top 😆 just couldn’t have survived having it on in summer heat 🤣🤣🤣


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## ester (29 June 2020)

I absolutely have executive function issues, and that + drug side effects make for a fat but fit ester. 
I'm not currently riding and don't expect I will be for some time.


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## Auslander (29 June 2020)

ester said:



			I absolutely have executive function issues, and that + drug side effects make for a fat but fit ester.
I'm not currently riding and don't expect I will be for some time.
		
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Come and ride Alf! He's good with fat but fit!


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## HollyWoozle (29 June 2020)

A few riding schools agreed to accept my beginner partner for lessons - he is approximately 16st 4lbs, but he is 6'4", active and fit which I think went a long way towards them agreeing to it. I think 17st is beyond almost anywhere but if they were able to lose a stone then they'd definitely have some options.


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## AdorableAlice (29 June 2020)

If anyone is looking for a HW, there is a Roma Diamond Skip on Facebook page, Quality  Draught and ISH page.  It is orange, but a super stamp.


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## cobgoblin (29 June 2020)

AdorableAlice said:



			If anyone is looking for a HW, there is a Roma Diamond Skip on Facebook page, Quality  Draught and ISH page.  It is orange, but a super stamp.
		
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This one? 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10220518245200819&id=1073592475
.


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## hellfire (29 June 2020)

Keith_Beef said:



			Yes, if I could spare the time, I'd dig through some books about the history of cavalry and find out how much weight of kit (tack, camping gear, rations, water, weapons and ammunition), in addition to the rider, a horse would have carried in the Napoleonic and Boer wars, and in WWI and WWII.
		
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They’d possibly carry 17st in the old day’s knights in shining armour, plus all the wars after. They were smaller stockier horses back then with weight carrying backs. But no consideration for the horse and what he felt and often the horses didn’t live to the ages we see now. My vet reckons my fell x Welsh d could carry 14st no problem. My oh did ride him shortly in the school and he’s 15st and prob sat like a 20st sack of spuds. Sparky showed no problem at all and still wanted to go. He is the type who’d tell you if he was upset! It’s not something I’d do regularly with him but there are weight carriers out there just rare. I’ve seen heavy riders who ride very light but it’s finding a horse for a beginner who will be unbalanced and sit heavy. Would have to be short sessions I expect.


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## Shilasdair (29 June 2020)

I remember being told by the school nurse that all girls should weigh 8 stone.

Height was immaterial in this.  I'm 5'10 and should apparently weigh the same as a 4'10 shortarse.    I remember thinking that the school nurse was a f uckwit.  I wasn't wrong then and I'm not wrong now.


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## Wishfilly (29 June 2020)

cobgoblin said:



			Riding schools that have a weight limit are not 'judging' anyone, they are simply protecting their horses and livelihood. Plus true weight carriers are harder to find, more expensive to buy and cost more to keep, but at a regular riding school no one is going to want to pay more for their lessons because they need a weight carrier. Just as nobody wants to pay more for clothing in a large size, even if the clothes take twice as much material.
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I agree with this to an extent, although I think a riding school with 12st as a weight limit is doing themselves out of business, that really is pretty low! 

It's also worth bearing in mind a lot of people lie about their weight (I do understand the reasons behind this) or at least round down! Most riding schools won't force someone on the scales as soon as they arrive, so they have to round down their weight limit too.



Keith_Beef said:



			Yes, if I could spare the time, I'd dig through some books about the history of cavalry and find out how much weight of kit (tack, camping gear, rations, water, weapons and ammunition), in addition to the rider, a horse would have carried in the Napoleonic and Boer wars, and in WWI and WWII.
		
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And how long did those horses last as useful, working animals? A riding school, for example, that treated their horses like horses were treated in e.g. WWI would be quickly shut down! 

I'm sure it's possible to find a horse that can carry a 17st beginner, but it's not going to be an easy thing to find necessarily.


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## Cinnamontoast (29 June 2020)

cobgoblin said:



			This one?

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10220518245200819&id=1073592475
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Pants, the link isn’t working. I”d love to see the orange horse!


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## Wishfilly (29 June 2020)

I do think as people are getting heavier/taller, riding schools do need to adapt and provide more weight carrying options but it is tricky. 

A few years ago, I worked for a trekking center- we had a stated weight limit of 16st. We had two horses who could comfortably carry more than that- one probably up to 18st, but that one wasn't suitable for complete beginners. We'd regularly have groups of people ring up where one of them was a bit over the weight limit, which is fine, because we could accommodate that. We also sometimes had groups ring up with 3/4 people right at the weight limit, that was ok because again, we usually had the horses available that could carry them. 

If you think in terms of repeat business, having one horse that can carry, say 18st, isn't really enough for a riding school to advertise a weight limit of 18st, because what if that one horse goes lame and you have to turn them away? You also don't really want a horse working right at its weight limit all the time. So, we had a stated weight limit online, but we were flexible with it in reality- and we still had people we needed to turn away due to weight. 

Other people might disagree with doing it like that, but it worked for them at the time!

Real weight carriers who are safe for beginners cost £££ compared to a well behaved 14-15hh cob/cobx who can safely carry most people- and the 14-15hh horse is usually cheaper and easier to keep, too. Or at least they did in our area of the country at the time!


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## cobgoblin (29 June 2020)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Pants, the link isn’t working. I”d love to see the orange horse!
		
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The ad seems to have gone.


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## Cinnamontoast (29 June 2020)

Darn it! There was an orange horse called Tango being sold by someone in Ireland who asks everyone if they would buy from there when they ask about a horse on the Happy Hackers and Family Horses Page. I wondered if the pic was nicked, I’m so suspicious!


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## cobgoblin (29 June 2020)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Darn it! There was an orange horse called Tango being sold by someone in Ireland who asks everyone if they would buy from there when they ask about a horse on the Happy Hackers and Family Horses Page. I wondered if the pic was nicked, I’m so suspicious!
		
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This was a horse that had been hunted then put out on loan to someone who now wanted to do dressage. There wasn't a price. Nice horse though. 
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## Red-1 (30 June 2020)

cobgoblin said:



			This was a horse that had been hunted then put out on loan to someone who now wanted to do dressage. There wasn't a price. Nice horse though.
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*flicks back through thread to see if I can identify who snapped up the lovely orange horse*


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## Keith_Beef (30 June 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			And how long did those horses last as useful, working animals? A riding school, for example, that treated their horses like horses were treated in e.g. WWI would be quickly shut down!
		
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When I wrote about those wars (Napoleonic, Boer, WWI, WWII), I was thinking of lighter cavalry for carrying out reconnaissance or skirmishing and striking at a long distance from the main body of the army. These units are more lightly armed, usually not armoured, and might have to carry rations and at least bedrolls (rather than requiring local populations to house them overnight).



Wishfilly said:



			If you think in terms of repeat business, having one horse that can carry, say 18st, isn't really enough for a riding school to advertise a weight limit of 18st, because what if that one horse goes lame and you have to turn them away? You also don't really want a horse working right at its weight limit all the time. So, we had a stated weight limit online, but we were flexible with it in reality- and we still had people we needed to turn away due to weight.
		
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The problem of keeping enough horses to carry different ranges of ability and weight is a tough one to solve, you're absolutely right. Where I ride, there are close to 30 riding school horses, of which I think five or six are suitable for me. So depending on the day of the week and the time of day, there might be only one or two that can work for another hour, so any lame horse might put me out of luck... And then, there is an added complication: a couple of them are used by the showjumping and eventing teams, and might be having a rest day before a competition. As I improve, though, another three or four horses will become available for me.

And it's true for most businesses, that you don't want to work your plant and machinery or your staff at anything near to 100% of capacity for long periods of time.


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## Wishfilly (30 June 2020)

Keith_Beef said:



			When I wrote about those wars (Napoleonic, Boer, WWI, WWII), I was thinking of lighter cavalry for carrying out reconnaissance or skirmishing and striking at a long distance from the main body of the army. These units are more lightly armed, usually not armoured, and might have to carry rations and at least bedrolls (rather than requiring local populations to house them overnight).
.
		
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I was thinking more of the attitude towards horses as generally disposable. My understanding is that any horses that went lame or were no longer useful were fairly quickly shot, which wouldn't really be acceptable to the average riding school customer. They weren't looking to keep those horses in work for years and years necessarily- so weight becomes less of an issue within reason.



Keith_Beef said:



			The problem of keeping enough horses to carry different ranges of ability and weight is a tough one to solve, you're absolutely right. Where I ride, there are close to 30 riding school horses, of which I think five or six are suitable for me. So depending on the day of the week and the time of day, there might be only one or two that can work for another hour, so any lame horse might put me out of luck... And then, there is an added complication: a couple of them are used by the showjumping and eventing teams, and might be having a rest day before a competition. As I improve, though, another three or four horses will become available for me.

And it's true for most businesses, that you don't want to work your plant and machinery or your staff at anything near to 100% of capacity for long periods of time.
		
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It's definitely tough and I think regular customers are more likely to be understanding about a horse being lame or only available at certain times- whereas as a trekking center a lot of our business over the summer was one offs- if you couldn't accommodate someone, they were likely to take their business elsewhere and sometimes leave a bad review. 

Like I said previously, I do think some lower weight limits (e.g. 12st) are fairly extreme, but equally if you can run your business successfully that way then fair enough! I do know a riding school which basically just has ponies with a few larger horses and usually caters to children/teenagers, I imagine their weight limit is pretty low and it seems to work for them!


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## cobgoblin (30 June 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			Like I said previously, I do think some lower weight limits (e.g. 12st) are fairly extreme, but equally if you can run your business successfully that way then fair enough! I do know a riding school which basically just has ponies with a few larger horses and usually caters to children/teenagers, I imagine their weight limit is pretty low and it seems to work for them!
		
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On the other hand, unless you are going to forcibly weigh customers, you can be pretty sure a large number will either lie or guesstimate their weight downwards perhaps to the tune of 1-1.5st. Then add on clothing and saddle weight of approx 1.5st and suddenly the horse is carrying 15st.

.


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## Wishfilly (30 June 2020)

cobgoblin said:



			On the other hand, unless you are going to forcibly weigh customers, you can be pretty sure a large number will either lie or guesstimate their weight downwards perhaps to the tune of 1-1.5st. Then add on clothing and saddle weight of approx 1.5st and suddenly the horse is carrying 15st.

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Oh for sure- I think this is another reason riding schools have to be conservative with their weight limits, because everyone rounds down, and some people definitely actively lie.


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## SEL (30 June 2020)

2ndtimearound said:



			When they are back open again, Cannock Chase Trekking Centre has a weight limit of 16 stone and a few weight carriers (they do lessons as well as treks). Obviously, he’ll still have to lose a little. It’s a 35 to 45 minute drive from Burton.
		
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I was going to mention the trekking centre as well - they have some good heavyweight types including a part bred Ardennes. He's got the chunky stamp, but bigger and more designed for riding than pulling. You can only get a 16.5" saddle on my pure bred which is only good for titchy bottoms!


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## Tiddlypom (30 June 2020)

On the Adventure Clydesdale website:

*WE DON'T TAKE BEGINNERS.*
*PLEASE NOTE THAT WE HAVE A WEIGHT LIMIT OF 16 STONE FOR THE 2 HOUR RIDE AND 14.5 STONE FOR THE 3 HOUR AND FULL DAY RIDES, THIS IS FOR THE WELFARE OF OUR HARD WORKING HORSES AND WILL BE STRICTLY ADHERED TO.  THESE WEIGHTS ARE FULLY KITTED OUT FOR RIDING, NOT ON THE BATHROOM SCALES.*

*WE DO HAVE SCALES AT THE FARM AND WILL ASK PEOPLE TO WEIGH IF WE ARE IN DOUBT.*

Quite right, no messing with these people.

http://www.adventureclydesdale.com/rides/daily-rides


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## 2ndtimearound (30 June 2020)

SEL said:



			I was going to mention the trekking centre as well - they have some good heavyweight types including a part bred Ardennes. He's got the chunky stamp, but bigger and more designed for riding than pulling. You can only get a 16.5" saddle on my pure bred which is only good for titchy bottoms!
		
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True, and he's still going well, considering his age! They've also intentionally bought a couple more weight carriers in the last couple of years or so to better accommodate larger customers too.


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## Gingerwitch (30 June 2020)

Thank you all so much for the help.  Plan is to aim for a stone loss and then see what is available at the time.

This thread has helped enormously as it has helped to explain that I am not being personal about his size.


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## Frumpoon (30 June 2020)

I must admit I can't see anybody in this thread being judgemental for the sake of it. It's perfectly ok to say that somebody is too heavy for horse X without there being anything personal or malicious in it.

I'm much more concerned with animal welfare than peoples feelings though


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## Kat (1 July 2020)

I think many people have no idea what a specific weight looks like, especially on a tall man. 

Many people would say my husband shouldn't be riding anything other than a huge weight carrier if they stood him on the scales but seeing him standing in front of them would be happy for him to ride some pretty lightweight horses, because he doesn't look fat, he wears 32" waist jeans and can fit in a 17" saddle as long as he can have long stirrups. 

The MINIMUM weight for endurance is 75kg, and it was the same for eventing back in the 80s. That is just under 12 stone. So all of those fine endurance horses are carrying around 12 stone. 

Mark Todd talks about crash dieting to be close to the minimum weight before a comptition. So he was almost certainly galloping and jumping a 15.3hh TBx while weighing more than 12 stone. 

I know riding schools are different and beginners are hard on horses but I think threads like this get a bit extreme about weight, and risk really upsetting people.


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## Regandal (1 July 2020)

The other thing to consider is that racehorses and hunters in hard work are fit. Not your average plod.


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## Kat (1 July 2020)

Gingerwitch I will try to PM you for somewhere to try


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## Gingerwitch (2 July 2020)

Kat said:



			Gingerwitch I will try to PM you for somewhere to try
		
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thank you for the pm GW x


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## Chinchilla (2 July 2020)

This is what your friend needs GW ...... Breton mule  (sadly not mine), due to hybrid vigour they can carry a greater % of their body weight than horses or donkeys (seen figures quoted 20-30%, 30 seems an awful lot though).

Sorry, I AM being a bit silly - but just wondering if you had found anywhere yet or come to a solution? I hope your friend can learn to ride.


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## ycbm (2 July 2020)

Kat said:



			The MINIMUM weight for endurance is 75kg, and it was the same for eventing back in the 80s. That is just under 12 stone. So all of those fine endurance horses are carrying around 12 stone. 

Mark Todd talks about crash dieting to be close to the minimum weight before a comptition. So he was almost certainly galloping and jumping a 15.3hh TBx while weighing more than 12 stone. 

I know riding schools are different and beginners are hard on horses but I think threads like this get a bit extreme about weight, and risk really upsetting people.
		
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All the sports horses carrying those sort of weights are not only very fit,  but as part of being very fit are carrying little body fat of their own.  Charisma when eventing,  for example,  was maybe 30 to 50 kilos lighter than if he was in an ordinary leisure home.  So you could knock that 30 to 50kg off the rider's weight before calculating how much the horse could carry.


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## Nari (3 July 2020)

ycbm said:



			All the sports horses carrying those sort of weights are not only very fit,  but as part of being very fit are carrying little body fat of their own.  Charisma when eventing,  for example,  was maybe 30 to 50 kilos lighter than if he was in an ordinary leisure home.  So you could knock that 30 to 50kg off the rider's weight before calculating how much the horse could carry.
		
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And this is my view on my welsh cob's weight, if he's not carrying much excess and is fit enough for the job he's doing then he can cope with a bit more rider weight. But I have heard people completely misunderstand the rider as a % of horse bodyweight argument and take the approach that if their horse is fatter it can carry more as 20% of it's bodyweight is now a bigger figure.


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## Bernster (3 July 2020)

Late to this thread but this got me thinking about rider weight v total weight. Found some old hho threads noting that kit could add on 2 stone!

Is the 15% ratio (on a not fat horse) just rider weight or total inc kit?


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## Chinchilla (3 July 2020)

Bernster said:



			Late to this thread but this got me thinking about rider weight v total weight. Found some old hho threads noting that kit could add on 2 stone!

Is the 15% ratio (on a not fat horse) just rider weight or total inc kit?
		
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Bernster said:



			Late to this thread but this got me thinking about rider weight v total weight. Found some old hho threads noting that kit could add on 2 stone!

Is the 15% ratio (on a not fat horse) just rider weight or total inc kit?
		
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It's the total weight the horse has to carry as a % of its ideal body weight


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## Tiddlypom (3 July 2020)

Bernster said:



			Late to this thread but this got me thinking about rider weight v total weight. Found some old hho threads noting that kit could add on 2 stone!
		
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That might have been me. My riding kit inc all tack and my riding clothing added 2.5 stone to my nekked weight .

That was an 18” Ideal event saddle with wintec girth, Mattes sheepskin correction numnah, bow balance stirrups, snaffle bridle, HS1 crash hat, jodh boots, half chaps, hit air vest, jodhs, polo shirt.


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## Bernster (3 July 2020)

TPom, which sounds like pretty standard kit.  Trying a new saddle atm and it’s much lighter than my Albion.


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## cobgoblin (3 July 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			That might have been me. My riding kit inc all tack and my riding clothing added 2.5 stone to my nekked weight .

That was an 18” Ideal event saddle with wintec girth, Mattes sheepskin correction numnah, bow balance stirrups, snaffle bridle, HS1 crash hat, jodh boots, half chaps, hit air vest, jodhs, polo shirt.
		
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I think I did the same on that thread, with a lightweight saddle my lot came to something like 27lbs.
.


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## Tiddlypom (3 July 2020)

The Ideal is a sturdily built traditional saddle. I now have a Fairfax GPD, it feels a lot lighter than the Ideal but I haven’t had it on the scales yet. The Equipe jump saddle which I have for another horse is very light.


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## Keith_Beef (3 July 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			That might have been me. My riding kit inc all tack and my riding clothing added 2.5 stone to my nekked weight .

That was an 18” Ideal event saddle with wintec girth, Mattes sheepskin correction numnah, bow balance stirrups, snaffle bridle, HS1 crash hat, jodh boots, half chaps, hit air vest, jodhs, polo shirt.
		
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I'm tempted to take the bathroom scales up to the yard, especially when we go out on an all day or a three day ride. We have a support vehicle carrying the midday picnic for us and the horses, but we carry some extra gear on the horses. 

In addition to the usual tack and clothing (and Leatherman), I'd typically carry

a lead rope,
3m of paracord with a magnet attached,
two 1L bottles of water,
small first-aid kit,
high-vis jacket and reflective bands,
head torch,
pocket torch,
waxed cotton jacket (or an unlined drover's coat),
folding water bucket,
small bag of barley or oats,
small bag of horse treats (or a couple of apples).

I might have forgotten a couple of items, but that must add about 3kg at a rough guess, but on the other hand we often have lightweight saddles for that kind of outing.


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## ester (3 July 2020)

I'm never sure why people are so keen on percentages when there is no decent research to support any of those numbers.


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## cobgoblin (3 July 2020)

Keith_Beef said:



			I'm tempted to take the bathroom scales up to the yard, especially when we go out on an all day or a three day ride. We have a support vehicle carrying the midday picnic for us and the horses, but we carry some extra gear on the horses. 

In addition to the usual tack and clothing (and Leatherman), I'd typically carry

a lead rope,
3m of paracord with a magnet attached,
two 1L bottles of water,
small first-aid kit,
high-vis jacket and reflective bands,
head torch,
pocket torch,
waxed cotton jacket (or an unlined drover's coat),
folding water bucket,
small bag of barley or oats,
small bag of horse treats (or a couple of apples).

I might have forgotten a couple of items, but that must add about 3kg at a rough guess, but on the other hand we often have lightweight saddles for that kind of outing.
		
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The 2L of water would be 2kg for a start.. So I would say that lot was more than 3kg.
.


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## cobgoblin (3 July 2020)

ester said:



			I'm never sure why people are so keen on percentages when there is no decent research to support any of those numbers.
		
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Because its all we have? It would be nice if there was something more concrete.


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## Bernster (3 July 2020)

ester said:



			I'm never sure why people are so keen on percentages when there is no decent research to support any of those numbers.
		
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presumably because of the absence of any other useable guidance?  % do seem to be the standard/accepted approach.


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## ihatework (3 July 2020)

Bernster said:



			presumably because of the absence of any other useable guidance?  % do seem to be the standard/accepted approach.
		
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Yes I think the 15-20% is a reasonable guide. It’s a bit of an art, not an exact science and the horses age, fitness, conformation all have to be considered as well as the rider ability and type of work expected.

I can well see why riding schools set weight limits reasonably low. Those horses, day in and day out have novice riders thumping around on their backs.


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## Surbie (3 July 2020)

Nari said:



			And this is my view on my welsh cob's weight, if he's not carrying much excess and is fit enough for the job he's doing then he can cope with a bit more rider weight. But I have heard people completely misunderstand the rider as a % of horse bodyweight argument and take the approach that if their horse is fatter it can carry more as 20% of it's bodyweight is now a bigger figure.
		
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I've heard that too - makes me really eye-rolly.


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## J&S (3 July 2020)

When I had a NF pony 30 odd years ago, I bought as many editions of the breed society book that came my way.  I had some pretty old ones and I noticed that they would have the results of the New Years Day Point to Point from the previous year in them.  When I read about 13 st men (or more) riding 12.2 -  14.hh ponies I was a bit horrified.  My farrier at the time was a real old time Forester/owner/breeder and had a wealth of information so I would always quizz him.  He said the reason these ponies could gallop the approximately 3 mile race accross the forest with these weights was because in those days they were so fit, most of them spending their days between the shafts or some other activity. This race was a day off for them!  He pointed out that for the average leisure pony to be ridden 5 days a week for an hour or so was just no comparison.  My vet made similar mention of this when my mare was suffering from a bit of congestion.


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## Gingerwitch (3 July 2020)

Chinchilla said:



			This is what your friend needs GW ...... Breton mule  (sadly not mine), due to hybrid vigour they can carry a greater % of their body weight than horses or donkeys (seen figures quoted 20-30%, 30 seems an awful lot though).

Sorry, I AM being a bit silly - but just wondering if you had found anywhere yet or come to a solution? I hope your friend can learn to ride.

View attachment 51013

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I love that mule🥰he has gone on a diet and is checking in once a week.  He is aiming for September.  So it sounds feasible.  If I find somewhere I will book him in earlier but have asked him to weigh himself in light clothing and boots just so he is not getting his hopes up and gets embarrassed.  He is also considering a carriage drive which may be a good fit. So on the search for a trial lesson for that now but will start a new post. X


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## ycbm (3 July 2020)

J&S said:



			When I had a NF pony 30 odd years ago, I bought as many editions of the breed society book that came my way.  I had some pretty old ones and I noticed that they would have the results of the New Years Day Point to Point from the previous year in them.  When I read about 13 st men (or more) riding 12.2 -  14.hh ponies I was a bit horrified.  My farrier at the time was a real old time Forester/owner/breeder and had a wealth of information so I would always quizz him.  He said the reason these ponies could gallop the approximately 3 mile race accross the forest with these weights was because in those days they were so fit, most of them spending their days between the shafts or some other activity. This race was a day off for them!  He pointed out that for the average leisure pony to be ridden 5 days a week for an hour or so was just no comparison.  My vet made similar mention of this when my mare was suffering from a bit of congestion.
		
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I do think we just don't realise these days how much work a horse, and especially a pony,  can do.

But I also remember that when I bought my first horse over forty years ago,  any horse over the age of eight was described as 'aged',  horses generally reached their maximum value by ten and then were worth less as they got older,  and a horse in ridden work at 25 was a real rarity. 

.


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## Pearlsasinger (3 July 2020)

ycbm said:



			I do think we just don't realise these days how much work a horse, and especially a pony,  can do.

But I also remember that when I bought my first horse over forty years ago,  any horse over the age of eight was described as 'aged',  horses generally reached their maximum value by ten and then were worth less as they got older,  and a horse in ridden work at 25 was a real rarity.

.
		
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Well yes but in the early 70s I knew a RS with 4 ponies in their 30s/40s before they were pts.  Admittedly they were retired and kept on for sentimental reasons by that age, except for the odd very gentle hack but they had been working in the RS when I first knew them in 1968 (?).


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## ycbm (3 July 2020)

Ponies are different,  they've always,  in general,  lived and worked longer than horses.  They also have faster skin healing when injured,  but that's a by the by.  

.


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## Nari (3 July 2020)

I do feel many people take the % of bodyweight figure too seriously and fail to factor in other considerations such as conformation, health issues, age, fitness to name but a few. Whatever happened to common sense?


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## Auslander (3 July 2020)

Nari said:



			Whatever happened to common sense?
		
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Don't be ridiculous!


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## Chinchilla (3 July 2020)

Auslander said:



			Don't be ridiculous!
		
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I wasn't suggesting it was a set in stone rule....


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## palo1 (4 July 2020)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			To me riding light and riding heavy is like carrying live weight to dead weight. A live weight will help hold themselves up, a dead weight just flops and seems much heavier to carry even though both would weigh the same on a scale.
		
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Yes!  Anyone who has carried a toddler will understand too: if you wear one of those child carrying backpacks (as I have done in the past!) and you have a child sitting up, interested and able to use some of their own muscle to sit up it is vastly different to a toddler who is lurching around or not able to carry themselves much.  Truly it makes you think about what horse have to put up with!!


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## Foxterrierist (27 July 2020)

It's not fair on the horse so perhaps lose some weight then come back.


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