# Princess Anne's eat more horsemeat comment



## 3OldPonies (15 November 2013)

Just wondering what other people made of the comment from Princess Anne about eating more horse meat in this country?

Personally I'm appalled that she thinks this could be a way to solve the welfare crisis - surely it would make it worse because there would be more not less horses being badly treated if they were being bred indiscriminately for meat. Not only that her assumption that people would treat their horses better if they thought they'd get money by selling them for meat at the end of their lives is way off, if you've nurtured, cared for and competed your horse would you really be selling it for meat at that awful time that we all dread?  Of course not.  And the poor things that really are part of the welfare crisis will just be bred from more and more to supply a new market.  Also, if there were a meat price of more than a couple of quid on a horse's life - how fast would theft increase as inscrupulous people just took them from fields (as happens now with cattle, pigs and sheep)?

Sorry, but I think she has made a really mis-placed and ill-informed comment this time.  The only way to stop the welfare crisis is to stop indiscriminate breeding and also sort the economy out so that honest, hard working, caring owners aren't being forced into giving up or PTS their equines in order to keep a roof over their own heads.


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## Alec Swan (15 November 2013)

3OldPonies said:



			.......

Personally I'm appalled that she thinks this could be a way to solve the welfare crisis - surely it would make it worse because there would be more not less horses being badly treated if they were being bred indiscriminately for meat. ........
		
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The Lady made perfect sense.  When we give horses an end of life value,  then better care will be taken of them,  and not as you assume,  worse.  The rest of the world seems to consider horses as farm stock.  When we are just about the only nation which is out of step with the rest of the world,  then it begs the question as to how right we are.

Not what you want to hear,  I realise and I apologise,  but there is a swelling of those who consider that we can't carry on in the neglectful way that we do.  It would seem that the Princess Royal's amongst them too.

Alec.


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## 3OldPonies (15 November 2013)

No need to apologise Alec.  I did ask for people's views and if they don't agree with mine that's fine - I wouldn't have asked if I didn't want to know!  

And at least we are agreed on one thing, that the current situation can't be allowed to continue.


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## spottybotty (15 November 2013)

I thought well done Princess Anne for broaching the subject! If horse "farming" was regulated like beef, sheep, pig farming surley it would improve the lives of so many equines and help regulate breeding.At the moment there is no market for horses/ponies.


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## CorvusCorax (15 November 2013)

As you point out in your last par, they are already being bred indiscriminately, I'd personally prefer that the surplus animals be utilised rather than PTS or left to fester. If the revelations are to be believed, a lot of us have been eating horsemeat unawares already so I don't see a huge problem with what she's saying.


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## Joyous70 (15 November 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			The Lady made perfect sense.  When we give horses an end of life value,  then better care will be taken of them,  and not as you assume,  worse.  The rest of the world seems to consider horses as farm stock.  When we are just about the only nation which is out of step with the rest of the world,  then it begs the question as to how right we are.

Not what you want to hear,  I realise and I apologise,  but there is a swelling of those who consider that we can't carry on in the neglectful way that we do.  It would seem that the Princess Royal's amongst them too.

Alec.
		
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Completely agree with you Alec 

Cattle, sheep and pigs are all cared for and nutured, prior to entering the food chain, the carcases are graded and the producer is paid per kg depending on the grade the beast makes which in my eyes is a good thing, as the animals are far better cared for to ensure the payout is higher.  In my eyes if horses became more common as meat then the people who are trying to make a quick buck from ill treated poorly bred stock would soon be out of business.

ETA: People who keep horses as a hobby or pets etc., will continue, as i see it to have their "friends" PTS the same as they do currently, most of our horses couldn't enter the food chain anyhow as nearly all of them will have had some form of drug that will negate them from entering the food chain.  No horse of mine would go for meat, down to my personal preference and due to the fact they have all had bute at some point.


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## DragonSlayer (15 November 2013)

If we ate horsemeat in this country, then the trade would be regulated as well as that for other livestock.

Currently you can trace a cow/sheep/pig from it's grandparents x 5 (for example) to the slaughter house.

It is my belief that such a trade would help to end the appalling conditions equines suffer in being transported abroad and also help stop the indiscriminate breeding of horses we see in this country, as only horses that are seen fit and healthy will be allowed to enter the food chain.

There is a worse fate than PTS humanely - stuck in a field, left to starve etc etc....

Not saying it guarantees to end all cruelty, but by heck, I bet it would make a difference....


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## jenni999 (15 November 2013)

I think she has made a perfectly valid argument - as she said, chuck it out there and let the debate begin.


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## Templebar (15 November 2013)

I was once told in regard to rare breeds, that the only way to save them is to eat them.

I feel that this comment could apply to a lot of animals if we made them a valuable end product.
I disagree that there would be more neglectful activity and theft as now with cattle those that are in poor condition dont sell so well as they do not have the desireable cuts therefore if people look after them better then they would sell better. Also this would be what the equine industry needs to kcik them up the rear end and tighten up the passport system, if the whole thing was truely legalised and done properly then you wouldn't be able to take an animal to the abbatoir without its passport in the correct ownership details.

I was discussing the BHS newsletter the other day with my instructor and we were saying how one of their key points was cheaper disposal is needed for horses. This is right. Many horses are being neglected and abandoned today because unless you have at least £500 to spare then you cannot have a horse PTS. So people instead are leaving them as they cannot afford it. Whereas if they made it that we could legally sell our horses then this would allow people who can no longer keep the horse to sell it without costs.

Currently the value on low grade horses is as little as a few £10 notes, some people cannot even give their horses away. If you put a meat value on them then you increase that immediately close to £300 if not more. These animals would then be worth something.


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## 3OldPonies (15 November 2013)

Templebar said:



			I was discussing the BHS newsletter the other day with my instructor and we were saying how one of their key points was cheaper disposal is needed for horses. This is right. Many horses are being neglected and abandoned today because unless you have at least £500 to spare then you cannot have a horse PTS. So people instead are leaving them as they cannot afford it. Whereas if they made it that we could legally sell our horses then this would allow people who can no longer keep the horse to sell it without costs.
		
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Templebar - that is an interesting point you make about disposal costs and very valid I should think in some cases.  If you are having financial diffiiculties for whatever reason then finding the money for PTS is probably a real reason why so many horses and ponies are being abandoned with charities or left to fend for themselves.


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## dunthing (15 November 2013)

I've always wondered why we don't eat horsemeat in this country. It makes perfect sense. The only problem I have with it is the transport and destruction of horses. When they're sent for meat, they shouldn't be herded into overcrowded lorries and denied basic comforts. If they were PTS in the UK, as opposed to being sent abroad, then surely there wouldn't be those problems. I used to mince horse meat for the kennels and I have to say that it smelled delicious. Sorry to those who don't agree.


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## Lizzie66 (15 November 2013)

Giving them a livestock status probably would improve the welfare of horses being transported for slaughter abroad.

However it could have massive implications to the use of horses for sport and leisure if the extremely strict controls of movement of livestock were imposed on all horse movements.

A lot of thought would have to go into the practicalities.


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## Maesfen (15 November 2013)

Lizzie66 said:



			Giving them a livestock status probably would improve the welfare of horses being transported for slaughter abroad.

However it could have massive implications to the use of horses for sport and leisure if the extremely strict controls of movement of livestock were imposed on all horse movements.

A lot of thought would have to go into the practicalities.
		
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I don't see why it should.  They do not have the same diseases that cattle do so with horses there would be no need to inform DEFRA any time you wanted to go to a show, clinic, whatever as long as the horse was still permanently kept at the same premises with the same owner.  You'd only need to inform them if you've sold the horse or it's moved permanently away.  Very simple.  The cattle database is easy to use and pretty efficient, would be good to have something as good for horses.

As an add on to what PA has written, I'd also do a round up of anything that does not have a micro cip at present and they can start the ball rolling by being first in line on the slab.  We have to get rid of them some how.


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## sywell (15 November 2013)

I heard a welfare represenative on the TV this morning and appreciate that the real problem is the difficulty in proving who owns the horse as I am sure the 2000 ponies on the Welsh hills have no passports as they need to. As DEFRA have never enforced this legislation the people in this trade ignore the regulations completely. One other area of concern is the fact that most owners do not realise how the end of life costs have increased. Vets who cover large yards like all the horses to have section IX signed not for human consumpstion as this makes their decision which drugs to use muck easier. I had a case where a vet did the flu/vac with the aid of a groom and the owner sent a horse for slaughter for human consumption only to discover that the vet had signed all the horses out and never told her.


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## CorvusCorax (15 November 2013)

I don't see that it would present a damage welfare either. 

Here's a welfare case from my locality this summer:

(JOE BLOGGS), of (ADDRESS) was sentenced at (LOCAL TOWN) Magistrates&#8217; Court on 21 June 2013 of one charge under the Welfare of Animals (Transport) Regulations (LOCAL REGION) 2006. Mr Bloggs had previously pleaded guilty on this charge. 
Mr Bloggs was fined £400 plus £30 costs. 

This case involved the transport of two cows over 30 miles to (NAMED) abattoir where on arrival the (Govt) veterinary officer found that one cow had a chronically infected, deformed left hind foot and had possible hip enlargement and abscessation of both hips. The animal was bearing minimal weight on the left hind leg. The hock and both hips of this carcase was condemned as being unfit for human consumption.

The other cow was thin and had a chronically infected, swollen and painful right hind foot on which it was bearing minimal weight. The carcase of this animal was condemned as being unfit for human consumption.

In the opinion of the official veterinarian at (meat company), the transportation of these two animals from (twon) to (company) caused them further unnecessary suffering.

....so, it is often the meat plants/vets who pick up on welfare cases.


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## Saneta (15 November 2013)

There might be a good suggestion here, but if this did happen, how many people would actually eat horsemeat within the UK I wonder?


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## chestnut cob (15 November 2013)

3OldPonies said:



			Personally I'm appalled that she thinks this could be a way to solve the welfare crisis - surely it would make it worse because there would be more not less horses being badly treated if they were being bred indiscriminately for meat..
		
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Horses are already bred indiscriminately.

I agree with Princess Anne.  I can't understand why the UK is so squeamish about eating horses, and horses going for slaughter.  As long as the animal has a good life and a good death, why does it matter what happens to the carcass?


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## MadBlackLab (15 November 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			The Lady made perfect sense.  When we give horses an end of life value,  then better care will be taken of them,  and not as you assume,  worse.  The rest of the world seems to consider horses as farm stock.  When we are just about the only nation which is out of step with the rest of the world,  then it begs the question as to how right we are.

Not what you want to hear,  I realise and I apologise,  but there is a swelling of those who consider that we can't carry on in the neglectful way that we do.  It would seem that the Princess Royal's amongst them too.

Alec.
		
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I agree with this. Better price for horse at end of life better care taken. I personally don't agree with the idea but the logics are there and cant be denied


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## MotherOfChickens (15 November 2013)

I'm not anti-horsemeat but not sure this would solve the current welfare problem-except for those poor squibs that are bred and never receive any vet treatment, such as the DHP and welshies. I am all for all horses having a basic value though-and they don't atm. are the above breeds ones we could eat and is it worthwhile using such types? What we need is an affordable way for horses to go to slaughter, should their owners choose it or need it-but most leisure horses will have had bute.


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## Penny Less (15 November 2013)

Is there not still a market for horsemeat abroad. I know at the moment they are travelled live, but if they were slaughtered here and sent abroad ? Although shortage of abatoirs here Not nice to think about but things are desperate now


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## dogatemysalad (15 November 2013)

Why is horse meat so cheap ? Because its a nasty trade dealing with desperate horses. we're not talking about farmed livestock with all the costs that producing quality meat from farming entails. 
 The horsemeat reaching your cottage pie has come from a fraudulent source. Horse slaughter on the continent and here in the UK is not a pleasant business with proper regulation. The horses were once someone's pet, or someone's hope for a derby winner. Those horses knew better times. It is the ultimate betrayal to be penned with other strange and frightened horses arriving daily at a slaughter house with no care and minimal hay and water, that the stronger horses get access to. They may be in those conditions for up to 5 or 6 days with strange horses arriving during that time. They can smell the slaughter. 

If horses are farmed from birth like cattle, with the same regulations here in the UK, it would be more acceptable.  I suspect farmers of cattle, sheep and pigs would not want to compete with a market of unregulated horsemeat for human consumption as it would affect their prices. 
But then, I did not think the UK is suffering from a shortage of meat anyway.


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## dianchi (15 November 2013)

As I read the statement after she said "throw it out there to discuss"

Which is exactly what we are doing!

Personally I think it would be better if they were slaughtered at home and the meat shipped rather than the live horses.
Also gives people choice over the food that they eat.

I find that it is similar to the fish debate. Pollock is a cheap cod alternative, many if not all of the supermarkets "breaded fish" or "battered fish" that you find in the freezer will be Pollock rather than cod, I don't really see how it is that different if you gave the people a choice of "meat lasagne" and "beef lasagne"

Surely it comes down to the customers in the market place


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## flyingfeet (15 November 2013)

I think its a valid argument - people obviously don't mind the taste 

Horses have no residual value, so I think this can only be a good thing. If we could get all their related products and services VAT free, that would be great 

However yes we would have to be strict, and 90% of horses would be out of the food chain for having bute in their lives. So drug companies would need to spend more testing their products (i.e. same antibiotic has a withdrawal period for cows but writes a horse out of the food chain is illogical) 

I would eat horse, just not my own!


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## CorvusCorax (15 November 2013)

Saneta said:



			There might be a good suggestion here, but if this did happen, how many people would actually eat horsemeat within the UK I wonder?
		
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Wouldn't bother me, I guess I have already probably eaten it already either in the UK under false labelling or in France or Italy as a generic 'steak' . I have eaten donkey in Sardinia.


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## MadBlackLab (15 November 2013)

dianchi said:



			As I read the statement after she said "throw it out there to discuss"

Which is exactly what we are doing!

Personally I think it would be better if they were slaughtered at home and the meat shipped rather than the live horses.
Also gives people choice over the food that they eat.

I find that it is similar to the fish debate. Pollock is a cheap cod alternative, many if not all of the supermarkets "breaded fish" or "battered fish" that you find in the freezer will be Pollock rather than cod, I don't really see how it is that different if you gave the people a choice of "meat lasagne" and "beef lasagne"

Surely it comes down to the customers in the market place
		
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I agree with this. Def be slaughter here in UK rather then transported alive in horrific conditions as we have seen on the continent many times.

Re if people will eat horse meat that's something that be  discussed. I think as long as the consumer knew they were buying horse meat unlike the scandal last winter then it may prove an answer to a growing welfare problem


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## Exploding Chestnuts (15 November 2013)

Yes, there are several insurmountable problems.
1] Most horses are treated with drugs, and many passports are signed off. This cannot be altered
2] Many areas of the country don't have suitable facilities for slaughtering for human consumption
3] The UK trend for animal slaughter is for fewer facilities, meaning extended transportation, how would this suit the horse owner.
4] Cattle can be penned in groups in the lairage, I believe they have to be starved before slaughter, is this acceptable?
5] Horses are more likely to be difficult to handle and panic, break legs.
6]Welfare organisations have been campaigning on behalf of equids for years, but they are still moving across country boundaries, live. This is not a good solution.
7] Consumer resistance.


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## CorvusCorax (15 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			5] Horses are more likely to be difficult to handle and panic, break legs.
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We still manage to consume deer!! And addressing point two, dedicated horse slaughterhouses could be set up, as some venison producers have done (set up their own facilities).


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## Rollin (15 November 2013)

I have only just seen the news item, and had already had her comments misquoted to me.

I don't think that a trade in horsemeat would bring improved welfare.  There are lots of countries in Europe where horsemeat is consumed and welfare is appalling.

Please BBC stop talking about the horsemeat consumption in France.  Very few French people eat horsemeat.  My local supermarkets have never more than two packs on display from where????  Canada!!!

My village butcher used to be a horsemeat specialist, it is never on display and is sold  only if asked for.  He buys his horsemeat from Canada too!!

There is insufficient demand to by a whole horse.


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## Piglet (15 November 2013)

I personally don't want to eat horse meat but I don't have an issue with those who do!!  If there is a chance that our equine friends would have a better regulated life and that there is a market for them then hopefully we won't see so many neglected abused and downtrodden horses.  We used to have 4 chickens which were pets but I still eat chicken (although I would have not eaten my "ladies")


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## Alec Swan (15 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			Yes, there are several insurmountable problems.
1] Most horses are treated with drugs, and many passports are signed off. This cannot be altered
2] Many areas of the country don't have suitable facilities for slaughtering for human consumption
3] The UK trend for animal slaughter is for fewer facilities, meaning extended transportation, how would this suit the horse owner.
4] Cattle can be penned in groups in the lairage, I believe they have to be starved before slaughter, is this acceptable?
5] Horses are more likely to be difficult to handle and panic, break legs.
6]Welfare organisations have been campaigning on behalf of equids for years, but they are still moving across country boundaries, live. This is not a good solution.
7] Consumer resistance.
		
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So what would your suggestions be?

1] The main stumbling block is the use of (generic) Bute,  but it was formerly in common usage for humans.  The minimal risk to humans of the residual traces,  stored within the horse,  was the leverage behind the relevant page within the passport.
2] I know of a nearly new (as in barely used) abattoir which is now mothballed,  but with such resistance from those who have an eye to their fund raising stance,  and the fact that my requests of the welfare charities who are (or were) refusing to accept the need for a worthwhile end for our hoses,  I've rather given up. 
3] See above.  There are plenty of facilities around the Country which could be re-opened.
4] Not so,  but having livestock empty makes for cleaner,  easier and faster work.  The question could easily be addressed by offering forage,  and with a correctly run establishment,  lairage facilities would be better than we see in many equine market places.
5] Again,  see above.  There's no earthly reason why horses should be stressed unduly at the point of slaughter.  Correctly done,  they are NOT treated like cattle,  and they would be led into and stand in a room.
6] The answer to that is simple.  More small and low-throughput abattoirs.
7] Yes,  that's a problem.  Without the support of Government and welfare charities,  and the horse owning public,  the Princess Royal's incentive will be lost.

I've felt for some while now that we can't continue as we are.  I've written to the HSA,  to welfare organisations,  and to those who could bring about change,  but not one of them have the balls to stand up and do what's right.  Apparently,  the rspca are now showing some interest following on from this morning's news.  Presumably they'll need to assess the likelihood of the impact that such a stance will have upon their fund raising abilities.  All that it'll need will be for the WHS to stand against such a move,  and the rspca's CEO will be taking a wage cut! 

Alec.


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## Sussexbythesea (15 November 2013)

I think it is flawed logic. The problem is with feral and indiscriminate breeding none of which would be suitable for human consumption in accordance with laws to protect human health. All horses would have to be specially bred, tagged, passported and treated like a fully traceable agricultural animal. If money were the only driver for breeding we wouldn't have over-breeding, much of it is cultural and due to ignorance and lack of care.


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## doriangrey (15 November 2013)

dogatemysalad said:



			Why is horse meat so cheap ? Because its a nasty trade dealing with desperate horses. we're not talking about farmed livestock with all the costs that producing quality meat from farming entails. 
 The horsemeat reaching your cottage pie has come from a fraudulent source. Horse slaughter on the continent and here in the UK is not a pleasant business with proper regulation. The horses were once someone's pet, or someone's hope for a derby winner. Those horses knew better times. It is the ultimate betrayal to be penned with other strange and frightened horses arriving daily at a slaughter house with no care and minimal hay and water, that the stronger horses get access to. They may be in those conditions for up to 5 or 6 days with strange horses arriving during that time. They can smell the slaughter. 

If horses are farmed from birth like cattle, with the same regulations here in the UK, it would be more acceptable.  I suspect farmers of cattle, sheep and pigs would not want to compete with a market of unregulated horsemeat for human consumption as it would affect their prices. 
But then, I did not think the UK is suffering from a shortage of meat anyway.
		
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Absolutely agree.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (15 November 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			We still manage to consume deer!! And addressing point two, dedicated horse slaughterhouses could be set up, as some venison producers have done (set up their own facilities).
		
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Yes deer are farmed, are we talking welfare or farming?


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## FairyLights (15 November 2013)

doriangrey said:



			Absolutely agree.
		
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I agree too


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## Spook (16 November 2013)

This has been a long time coming, I sincerely hope that the Welfare Charities give this some very serious thought. IF welfare is at the top of their agendas they will support the supervised, correctly organised slaughter of horses  for human consumption in Britain either for export or home use. 

I do fear that there is the possibility that an influence against this may be financial ....... if there is no welfare issue and horses do have a realistic end value some of the charities will go out of business. As things stand so many horses are a financial liability, they have no hope, the cost of having them pts has become ridiculous, no wonder so many are being abandoned. Legislation will no doubt be brought in to deal with withdrawal periods for various drugs and frankly those horses who are unwanted, dangerous, lame etc but healthy will have a good value, those horses who are as above but signed out of the human food chain will be at best worthless at worst a financial liability. 

It is not just the indiscriminate breeders who find themselves with an overload of stock, the country is awash with unwanted, neglected horses.

Time for horsemeat to be properly labeled as just that or as a part of a pie etc...... and sold here or exported..... let the customer decide.


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## shannonandtay (16 November 2013)

Perhaps this country needs to look into some of the appalling behaviour that goes on in slaughter houses before we even start thinking about sending horses there for meat.  I'm not saying all of them at all but some proper supervision needs to be at these places for all the animals that end up there.


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## misterjinglejay (16 November 2013)

I agree, Alec - good points and well made


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## Micky (16 November 2013)

Why can't we have licences for ownership of horses and do the same with dog ownership?? I personally think it is a good idea what P Anne has suggested though not sure i need to be told that i'm eating horsemeat, but after all the recent supermarket scandal of having horsemeat in various readymeals and the population ate quite happily, I can't see a great issue...bar the management from beginning to end..its a big project.


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## Caledonia (16 November 2013)

I'm with PA. 

Surely a swift dispatch on UK shores is better than being shipped abroad? 

It's not like it doesn't already happen legitimately in the UK. There is also evidence of backyard slaughter happening, and that is totally unregulated. People need to accept the abattoir as a means of disposal for the unwanted horses. Those who don't are inhibiting the progress towards it, and ensuing continuing suffering. 

Worse than death, there is suffering.


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## ILuvCowparsely (16 November 2013)

We have been a country who regards horses as pets and as a means to travel  for so many years, and also been a country who regards horses not  meals to fill the belly for so long.  I am amazed that the Royal party has made a comment like this when horses  have always been highly regarded in the Royal family.


   The idea of eating a horse make my stomach churn.  I for one still think of the UK as horse free consumption.  I have had these view  and a long with 1000 of others.  Feel disgusted in her comment.
  With the outrage of recent events  of it found in our food chain, I am not alone in thinking this way.
   Could not even look at a plate of it grosssss


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## Caledonia (16 November 2013)

And here's another good reason to support abattoirs. Read the 'lottery' post. 

https://www.facebook.com/chrismill.cobsandponys?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (16 November 2013)

shannonandtay said:



			Perhaps this country needs to look into some of the appalling behaviour that goes on in slaughter houses before we even start thinking about sending horses there for meat.  I'm not saying all of them at all but some proper supervision needs to be at these places for all the animals that end up there.
		
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There is supervision, do you mean chickens?........ do you eat meat?


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## shannonandtay (16 November 2013)

Does it matter whether it's chickens or not? I'm talking about all animals that go to slaughter, and some of the undercover filming showing cruelty that can occur.  Obviously if those places we're being supervised at the time then it's not good enough is it, as I said not all abbatoirs obviously.  Sorry if I've made a point about cruelty that you don't like and whether I eat meat or not makes no difference does it.


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## Honeylight (16 November 2013)

That Facebook page is very revealing & it shocked me to see it, the level of ignorance of some people. Horrible, thankyou for posting the link.


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## CorvusCorax (16 November 2013)

Abbatoirs and meat plants in the UK are well run and supervised on the whole, one bad video doesn't mean that all abbatoirs are run in the same way, for instance, the welfare case I mentioned on page one was detected AT the meat plant when the animals arrived.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (16 November 2013)

shannonandtay said:



			Does it matter whether it's chickens or not? I'm talking about all animals that go to slaughter, and some of the undercover filming showing cruelty that can occur.  Obviously if those places we're being supervised at the time then it's not good enough is it, as I said not all abbatoirs obviously.  Sorry if I've made a point about cruelty that you don't like and whether I eat meat or not makes no difference does it.
		
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You don't get my point.......... of course cruelty can occur at any time, whether in the abattoir or en route, or "at home".
We kill millions of chickens every year.  In the UK most are killed under controlled conditions, and the "pre killing " room is darkish and is quiet. These conditions are considered acceptable by meat eaters. They are acceptable under UK laws.
I am just citing chickens as an example, in times gone by, this would not be a consideration, but "the consumer" considers that meat on the shelves has been raised and killed in a legal and a human way.


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## devonlass (16 November 2013)

I'm unsure about allowing pet animals that have been or need to be PTS used as food.Not a terrible idea on the surface,but would be difficult to bring about and monitor safely I would have thought.

On the farming issue,breeding and treating them like any other livestock,and them being subject to the same rules and treated well etc,can't see how that will work at all TBH.

Not all livestock are treated 'well' despite regulation and legislation.Adequately for their type and needs maybe but it would be deluded to think horses could live that kind of lifestyle or that the average farmer would have the funds or inclination to treat them 'well'.

Horses have more complex needs than other livestock,would farmers really cater for this and the other special requirements they have?? Is horsemeat desired enough as a food source in this country for the returns to be enough to ensure good standards of care?? 

I am not saying BTW that all livestock should or needs to have the highest levels of care,I am more than aware that's not feasible,but horses need very different things to other meat bred animals we have in this country,which is maybe why we haven't ever been a nation that has them the same as we have cattle etc,perhaps we just can't facilitate their requirements as some other countries can??

I suspect the type of horses that suffer the most now would still be the ones worst off,there would just be greater numbers of them and the people keeping them instead of being dealers would be calling themselves farmers.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (16 November 2013)

Round our way [Scotland] there are no horsemeat abattoirs, and since it is difficult to dispose on land, most are destined for the knackerman, who will kill on site then remove the carcass.
This must be the most humane method.
HRH Anne has not just thrown this out without due consideration,  it is a concern she has raised, to find a practical solution and to end suffering.
Vets recommend "signing off" the passport, and once "signed off" the meat cannot enter the food chain.


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## shannonandtay (16 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			You don't get my point.......... of course cruelty can occur at any time, whether in the abattoir or en route, or "at home".
We kill millions of chickens every year.  In the UK most are killed under controlled conditions, and the "pre killing " room is darkish and is quiet. These conditions are considered acceptable by meat eaters. They are acceptable under UK laws.
I am just citing chickens as an example, in times gone by, this would not be a consideration, but "the consumer" considers that meat on the shelves has been raised and killed in a legal and a human way.
		
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I understand what you mean and yes if animals are killed in controlled conditions then I don't have a problem with that.  I meant that there seems to be a lot of cruelty before the actually killing process as in the horrible footage taken of animals being beaten and tortured for fun, I think in general there's more cruelty around in homes etc that we don't know about but I was trying to say that this needs to be addressed properly in abbatoirs so at least these animal s have some dignity in their last moments .


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## Exploding Chestnuts (16 November 2013)

dianchi said:



			As I read the statement after she said "throw it out there to discuss"

Which is exactly what we are doing!

Personally I think it would be better if they were slaughtered at home and the meat shipped rather than the live horses.
Surely it comes down to the customers in the market place
		
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Wrong.....there is a lot of legislation. ... and for good reason....
If we followed your logic we would find people killing home grown animals at home, by whatever means available, and selling off bits in plastic bags to back street restaurants.
This already happens unfortunately,  tho it is usually what happens to  rustled sheep/cattle.

On another tack: customers of Tesco have voted with their feet in spite of Jamie Oliver's campaign, ........ they continue to purchase chicken meat and other meats which have been raised in legal conditions, but not welfare friendly conditions.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (16 November 2013)

shannonandtay said:



			I understand what you mean and yes if animals are killed in controlled conditions then I don't have a problem with that.  I meant that there seems to be a lot of cruelty before the actually killing process as in the horrible footage taken of animals being beaten and tortured for fun, I think in general there's more cruelty around in homes etc that we don't know about but I was trying to say that this needs to be addressed properly in abbatoirs so at least these animal s have some dignity in their last moments .
		
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Of course, we all want animals to have a peaceful end, and things have improved steadily over the years, as our knowledge and understanding increases, the conditions in slaughterhouses have improved.
There are already laws in many countries to prevent cruelty, but enforcement is variable, as is what is considered acceptable.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (16 November 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			So what would your suggestions be?

1] The main stumbling block is the use of (generic) Bute,  but it was formerly in common usage for humans.  The minimal risk to humans of the residual traces,  stored within the horse,  was the leverage behind the relevant page within the passport.
2] I know of a nearly new (as in barely used) abattoir which is now mothballed,  but with such resistance from those who have an eye to their fund raising stance,  and the fact that my requests of the welfare charities who are (or were) refusing to accept the need for a worthwhile end for our hoses,  I've rather given up. 
3] See above.  There are plenty of facilities around the Country which could be re-opened.
4] Not so,  but having livestock empty makes for cleaner,  easier and faster work.  The question could easily be addressed by offering forage,  and with a correctly run establishment,  lairage facilities would be better than we see in many equine market places.
5] Again,  see above.  There's no earthly reason why horses should be stressed unduly at the point of slaughter.  Correctly done,  they are NOT treated like cattle,  and they would be led into and stand in a room.
6] The answer to that is simple.  More small and low-throughput abattoirs.
7] Yes,  that's a problem.  Without the support of Government and welfare charities,  and the horse owning public,  the Princess Royal's incentive will be lost.

I've felt for some while now that we can't continue as we are.  I've written to the HSA,  to welfare organisations,  and to those who could bring about change,  but not one of them have the balls to stand up and do what's right.  Apparently,  the rspca are now showing some interest following on from this morning's news.  Presumably they'll need to assess the likelihood of the impact that such a stance will have upon their fund raising abilities.  All that it'll need will be for the WHS to stand against such a move,  and the rspca's CEO will be taking a wage cut! 

Alec.
		
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The whole idea is not commercial, who is going to subsidise it?
A recent quote for me was £300 for disposal. 
There was no way I would send my horse on a journey of 500 miles to be slaughtered in a place  I do not know and have no control over. I would not consider it acceptable for "my boy"
Of course the RSPCA are going to respond, what else would they do.


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## Caledonia (16 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			The whole idea is not commercial, who is going to subsidise it?
A recent quote for me was £300 for disposal. 
There was no way I would send my horse on a journey of 500 miles to be slaughtered in a place  I do not know and have no control over. I would not consider it acceptable for "my boy"
Of course the RSPCA are going to respond, what else would they do.
		
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It will subsidise itself the way Potters already does. 

And people like you are not the problem. Except in your aversion to the idea.

Please don't bury your head in the sand about the amount of horses that are continually on the market merry go round, until someone either ships them to slaughter, or they get bought by a clown and suffer abuse and awful circumstances, or they are dumped or abandoned (such as those of Tom Price's) until they die of neglect.

Surely a relatively quick local death is way preferable to all of the above?


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## Alec Swan (16 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			The whole idea is not commercial, who is going to subsidise it?
........
		
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Perhaps I didn't make myself clear,  the idea would be that ALL equine abattoirs would be run on a commercial basis.  The two existing premises run at a profit (or try to),  but with the welfare bodies,  and those who would have every horse spend its days in a field of daisies,  with the sun shining,  leaning on those who make the regulations by which we live,  and by pressure,  so they let in by a side door,  what I believe is the page known as Section IX,  whereby any owner,  during the horse's life can sign the "Not for slaughter" clause,  and the next owner will be taking on a liability.

When those who engineered the prescriptive legislation (mostly the charities and welfare groups all jockeying for position around the trough of charity),  managed to make the slaughter of horses for human consumption virtually impossible,  at least on a truly commercial scale,  then they probably couldn't see the frightful mess that their short sighted decisions have led us in to.  We now have welfare cases which are truly appalling,  we have what are loosely referred to as "rescues" and the truth is that many of the wretched and imprisoned creatures (useful none the less at persuading others to slacken their purse strings),  should be humanely despatched.  The bulk of these poor creatures are not fit for a commercial end,  because whilst their probably not fit to travel,  they're also as poor as old rooks,  and of no value.  Before these animals reached this dreadful state,  they should have been offered the chance of a decent and humane end,  and whilst they were of some value.  

Whilst a horse has a perceived value it stands a better chance of being cared for,  if only for its owner to protect their investment.

Let us imagine that the welfare groups,  the charities and those who administer to the well being of both us and our animals,  actually take on board the problem,  and accept that they are largely responsible for this mess,  then with the "trade" improved,  with a profit margin,  with State veterinary supervision,  as there is (or should be) in conventional abattoirs,  with permanent and maintained CCTV recording facilities for those who think that it'll help,  we can have a correct and well managed equine slaughter system which will be the envy of the world.  Wherever horses are slaughtered,  from Europe to Australia and America,  the system is flawed.  The protocols for correct equine slaughter are not followed,  abattoirs which kill cattle and sheep,  probably set aside one day a week for horses , and they can't be treated as farm stock,  at the point of slaughter.  Potters are about as good as it is,  but even then,  it's far from ideal,  and with the plan for a viable business,  so there would be a need for serious financial investment,  and if that happy state ever arrives,  it's already long overdue!

I'm sorry if I've rather "gone on",  but it's a subject about which I feel very strongly.

Amongst the hoards of those who think that a slaughter trade would be wrong,  I've yet to hear any viable alternative,  apart from relaxing the laws and having a shooting and burial system.  Perhaps it'll come to that,  yet!

Alec.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (16 November 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Perhaps I didn't make myself clear,  the idea would be that ALL equine abattoirs would be run on a commercial basis.  
Amongst the hoards of those who think that a slaughter trade would be wrong,  I've yet to hear any viable alternative,  apart from relaxing the laws and having a shooting and burial system.  Perhaps it'll come to that,  yet!

Alec.
		
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We can't have a shoot and bury system due to pollution of groundwater, one can't bury at home, unless it is a pet  AND not near groundwater.

The two existing abattoirs must be running at a profit or they would close. but there are only two, which suggest it is not viable to start up new enterprises all over the country.
I confess I do not know anyone who is shipping horses there from Scotland, or Ireland, though it may be going on, presumably it is not solving the problem.

The local facilities here send meat for pet food [i think], but there must be a lot of biological waste.
We hear of people "rescuing" horses from slaughter, this is their prerogative, but not too many people do get involved, they realise it is a huge commitment. Far  better to donate to a charity.

If there are people all over the country who are neglecting their animals, and I know there are, then the Law should be enforced and the culprits prosecuted. End of.

If anyone watched the recent documentary about the horses of the Great War, they also saw the field abattoir, not a pleasant sight. But people were hungry and the horses were sold for butcher-meat. I don't see that as being an acceptable conclusion for any of the Household Cavalry remounts. I mean acceptable to the general public, not just people who are anti "horse-meat eating" per se.


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## Alec Swan (16 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			.......

If there are people all over the country who are neglecting their animals, and I know there are, then the Law should be enforced and the culprits prosecuted. End of.

........
		
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Is this the only suggestion that you have to make?  Do you have no other possible solutions,  or ideas as to how resolve can be reached?

Alec.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (16 November 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Is this the only suggestion that you have to make?  Do you have no other possible solutions,  or ideas as to how resolve can be reached?

Alec.
		
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No Alec it is not the only suggestion I have to make.........  I can send you a picture of my boy after being in the hands of some "HORSE LOVER" for six months, she had to option to lift the phone and ask me to take him back, but she decided starvation was the better option.


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## Alec Swan (16 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			No Alec it is not the only suggestion I have to make.........  .
		
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So what would your proposals be?  I'm genuinely interested. How would you see this huge and worsening backlog of unwanted horses reach an acceptable conclusion?  

Alec.


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## hoggedmane (16 November 2013)

On the news yesterday was the report about the dartmoor ponies and their plummeting value. Presumably these ponies have had minimal treatment with drugs and could potentially have value for meat. I noticed how many coloured ponies there were and as I understand it piebald and skewbald are not allowed colours for dartmoor ponies. I expect a few coloured ponies have been released on to the moor. If these ponies had a value for meat may be it would help finance a reducuction of the poorly bred ones and get back to a core of good dartmoor type ponies.


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## devonlass (17 November 2013)

hoggedmane said:



			On the news yesterday was the report about the dartmoor ponies and their plummeting value. Presumably these ponies have had minimal treatment with drugs and could potentially have value for meat. I noticed how many coloured ponies there were and as I understand it piebald and skewbald are not allowed colours for dartmoor ponies. I expect a few coloured ponies have been released on to the moor. If these ponies had a value for meat may be it would help finance a reducuction of the poorly bred ones and get back to a core of good dartmoor type ponies.
		
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I am not 100% certain of this but am pretty sure they go to the zoo for meat if no other homes can be found.

I'm not sure of the money involved,possibly not a lot if any but then they don't have a lot of size or condition to them a lot of the time so wouldn't be worth much anyway.

What usually happens though from what I've seen is that well meaning people publicise that there are ponies in need of homes,and make please for people to buy them for pennies so they don't go to the zoo.
Often wondered if people often end up regretting the impulse /pity buy and the ponies end up unwanted once more.Probably been better off going to the zoo in the first place in a lot of cases TBH.

Think the breeding situation on the moor is a bit complicated.Not helped by the fact that the Dartmoor hill pony (which is the type you see going for pennies and for meat) aren't a registered breed as such and covers the collective of ponies roaming on the moor,I *think* anyway.True Dartmoor ponies are usually quite sought after and have a reasonable value.As much as I understand it that's the case anyway.

Do all Zoo's use,or have the option to use horse meat?? Maybe that could be utilised more than it is??


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## Exploding Chestnuts (17 November 2013)

OK, if we accept that this is a crisis born out of economic recession then it should start to ease as we move out of the current economic climate........... this is the sort of rhetoric  David Cameron et al will present...........
In the meantime, winter is upon us and if people can't afford to feed their horse they will take whatever option they have been taking ........ no one can suddenly alter legislation overnight in favour of horse welfare, and to be realistic, once the passport is signed, in the long term the horse is destined for pet-food.
Not every problem has a satisfactory solution is what I am saying. if there was one available we would already be going down that route.


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## eahotson (17 November 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Perhaps I didn't make myself clear,  the idea would be that ALL equine abattoirs would be run on a commercial basis.  The two existing premises run at a profit (or try to),  but with the welfare bodies,  and those who would have every horse spend its days in a field of daisies,  with the sun shining,  leaning on those who make the regulations by which we live,  and by pressure,  so they let in by a side door,  what I believe is the page known as Section IX,  whereby any owner,  during the horse's life can sign the "Not for slaughter" clause,  and the next owner will be taking on a liability.

When those who engineered the prescriptive legislation (mostly the charities and welfare groups all jockeying for position around the trough of charity),  managed to make the slaughter of horses for human consumption virtually impossible,  at least on a truly commercial scale,  then they probably couldn't see the frightful mess that their short sighted decisions have led us in to.  We now have welfare cases which are truly appalling,  we have what are loosely referred to as "rescues" and the truth is that many of the wretched and imprisoned creatures (useful none the less at persuading others to slacken their purse strings),  should be humanely despatched.  The bulk of these poor creatures are not fit for a commercial end,  because whilst their probably not fit to travel,  they're also as poor as old rooks,  and of no value.  Before these animals reached this dreadful state,  they should have been offered the chance of a decent and humane end,  and whilst they were of some value.  

Whilst a horse has a perceived value it stands a better chance of being cared for,  if only for its owner to protect their investment.

Let us imagine that the welfare groups,  the charities and those who administer to the well being of both us and our animals,  actually take on board the problem,  and accept that they are largely responsible for this mess,  then with the "trade" improved,  with a profit margin,  with State veterinary supervision,  as there is (or should be) in conventional abattoirs,  with permanent and maintained CCTV recording facilities for those who think that it'll help,  we can have a correct and well managed equine slaughter system which will be the envy of the world.  Wherever horses are slaughtered,  from Europe to Australia and America,  the system is flawed.  The protocols for correct equine slaughter are not followed,  abattoirs which kill cattle and sheep,  probably set aside one day a week for horses , and they can't be treated as farm stock,  at the point of slaughter.  Potters are about as good as it is,  but even then,  it's far from ideal,  and with the plan for a viable business,  so there would be a need for serious financial investment,  and if that happy state ever arrives,  it's already long overdue!

I'm sorry if I've rather "gone on",  but it's a subject about which I feel very strongly.

Amongst the hoards of those who think that a slaughter trade would be wrong,  I've yet to hear any viable alternative,  apart from relaxing the laws and having a shooting and burial system.  Perhaps it'll come to that,  yet!

Alec.
		
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Agree with every word you say Alec and particulary the trough of charity bit.Thats not exclusive to horse welfare sadly.I have to say though, that the current heads of the major welfare organizations are possibly not the ones that helped to formulate this mess.Princess Anne has tried to help by at least bringing this situation to the attention of the news, they have only reported it because she says so.They have reported it in a thoroughly irresponsible way in my view.You wonder what else they get wrong!They say people were revolted when they discovered they may have inadvertantly eaten horse.I don't think so.They were more annoyed by the deceit.


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## Bertieb123 (17 November 2013)

At Last someone high profile has spoken out about this issue and I fully support her for having the guts to bring the issue up publicly, below is something I have copied and pasted which I posted a while ago, I would fully support any abattoir that started to or was to open to slaughter horses with the correct facilities, and I am still waiting for the first supermarket to have the nerve to put horsemeat on the shelves (legitimately this time)! I think there would actually be a market for it, especially as we have a huge Eastern European population here. 


I am certainly against live export of any animal to slaughter let alone equines, and would support any horse abattoir that ran within all the correct regulations and procedures, it would be IMO far better to have any unwanted etc. equines slaughtered here than be exported live, abused or dumped. I know there are many against the slaughter of horses and I think we are too guarded about it in this country if done correctly I see it as no different to cattle, sheep, pigs or poultry being slaughtered as long as it done in a humane way of course, I have mentioned a while ago that if people feel they can or are curious they should go and spend a day in a abattoir (any species), I know many who were pleasantly surprised how humane the process actually was, and by having the whole process explained as to what was happening in detail they had more understanding as to why the process *looks* horrific. lots of people have an image of the animal twitching whilst and after being bled, yes that happens but the animal is dead, (ok there are exceptions as we have all seen, and lets hope the investigation has a acceptable conclusion) Media and tv have a lot to answer to as when you see someone killed on TV or in a film they just lie still well sorry that does not happen!


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## Sussexbythesea (17 November 2013)

Do countries that eat horses have a better standard of horse welfare than the UK? I highly doubt it. 

I'm not against humane slaughter but a whole country to change its culture to eat horsemeat is extremely unlikely and not a very viable solution. If we were all starving it might be different but we are not. 

Apparently even in Belgium and France only a very small percentage of the population regularly (at least purposely eats horse meat). If so few eat it there where it is a normal part of the culture I can't think that it would catch on here.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (17 November 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			Do countries that eat horses have a better standard of horse welfare than the UK? I highly doubt it. 

I'm not against humane slaughter but a whole country to change its culture to eat horsemeat is extremely unlikely and not a very viable solution. If we were all starving it might be different but we are not. 

Apparently even in Belgium and France only a very small percentage of the population regularly (at least purposely eats horse meat). If so few eat it there where it is a normal part of the culture I can't think that it would catch on here.
		
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Exactly


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## Spook (17 November 2013)

It is nonsense to say that there has been no history of horse meat being eaten in Britain


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## MagicMelon (17 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			Round our way [Scotland] there are no horsemeat abattoirs, and since it is difficult to dispose on land, most are destined for the knackerman, who will kill on site then remove the carcass.
		
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Out of interest, why is it difficult to dispose of a horse on your own land?  When mine are PTS, they will be buried in their field - I'd never ever consider getting Douglas Brae (the knacker man up my way!) to come and zap my horse and take the body away.


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## eahotson (17 November 2013)

OK we have (and the horse charities which are full to bursting assure us we have) thousands of horses which are facing a winter of startvation and cold.The BHS says we need a cull.What would you sugest we do about this?


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## Sussexbythesea (17 November 2013)

MagicMelon said:



			Out of interest, why is it difficult to dispose of a horse on your own land?  When mine are PTS, they will be buried in their field - I'd never ever consider getting Douglas Brae (the knacker man up my way!) to come and zap my horse and take the body away.
		
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The odd pet horse buried is fine as long as you are not near a spring, well or borehole or near a watercourse that is why it is recommended you check your locality presumably with SEPA in Scotland before burial. Why? Because they rot and the juices from the putrefication could end up in a water supply or polluting a stream. Obviously if you had a mass burial it would be extremely polluting in the wrong place and would also produce a lot of gas.


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## Sussexbythesea (17 November 2013)

eahotson said:



			OK we have (and the horse charities which are full to bursting assure us we have) thousands of horses which are facing a winter of startvation and cold.The BHS says we need a cull.What would you sugest we do about this?
		
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A suggestion less stupid than the entire country decides to have roast horse instead of turkey for Christmas? 

A stupid idea isn't better than no idea.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (17 November 2013)

MagicMelon said:



			Out of interest, why is it difficult to dispose of a horse on your own land?  When mine are PTS, they will be buried in their field - I'd never ever consider getting Douglas Brae (the knacker man up my way!) to come and zap my horse and take the body away.
		
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A2: Regulation (EC) 1069/2009 provides a derogation in Article 19(a) permitting the burial of pet horses. If you wish to do so, you may bury your pet horse, following your local authority and Scottish Environment Protection Agency guidelines. These are likely to require pet horse burial sites to:

be at least 250 metres away from any well borehole or spring that supplies water
be at least 30 metres from any other spring or watercourse, and at least 10 metres from a field drain
have at least 1 metre of subsoil below the bottom of the burial pit, allowing a hole deep enough for at least 1 metre of soil to cover the carcass
be free of water at the bottom of the hole, when first dug.
You may also dispose of your pet horse at a pet crematorium, or if you are a member of the National Fallen Stock Company you can use their collection service for your horse.

Horses that are not classified as pets must be disposed of as fallen stock.

Note this last line.......... one would have difficulty classifying certain horses as pets if they are used in a commercial operation, also in certain parts of the country it might be difficult to find a suitable site.


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## Caledonia (18 November 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			A suggestion less stupid than the entire country decides to have roast horse instead of turkey for Christmas? 

A stupid idea isn't better than no idea.
		
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Why is it a stupid idea? What alternative would you offer?


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## LittleRooketRider (18 November 2013)

Personally for me it wouldn't be my choice of action...but i do agree that it could help, it may not end the welfare crisis but it could stop atrocities such as those that occur from traveling horses long distance for slaughter for example.


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## Alec Swan (18 November 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			A suggestion less stupid than the entire country decides to have roast horse instead of turkey for Christmas? 

A stupid idea isn't better than no idea.
		
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I'm sorry but I don't agree with you.  Even stupid ideas encourage debate,  and the chance of pertinent dialogue.  That's a bit t-i-c,  but I've yet to hear any realistic suggestions from those who would criticise a commercial slaughter system,  and apart from the fact that it's believed to be wrong,  few seem to offer any alternatives.

As Rollin (I think it was),  has pointed out,  on the Continent,  their tastes are changing and rather as the "Wet fish trade" here,  the popularity and demand for horse meat,  are on the wane,  with perhaps the older generation finding it palatable.  I don't know,  but am guessing!  

I suspect that those Continental abattoirs which specialise in horses,  or at least process them,  probably find that the bulk of their sales,  go to the processed arm of the meat trade,  which is exactly how we've ended up with so much on our supermarket shelves.  There is also the pet meat trade,  and considering the cost of those commercially produced dog foods which contain meat,  there is a ready market for a product,  and whilst there needs to be a dedicated slaughter system,  and one which is humane and ethical,  it remains the only viable answer,  that I can see.

MrsD123, that's an interesting post of yours.  I've always been convinced that burial of horses was illegal,  no matter what their status.  I wish that I'd known,  the owners of that legend Desert Orchid could have gifted him to me an hour or so before he died.  I'd have considered it a privilege to have had the old chap end up here.  

I suspect that we're going round in circles with this one,  so to the relief of most I'm sure,  I'm off!! 

Alec.


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## Caledonia (19 November 2013)

And maybe if there was easier abattoir access this carnage might have been avoided too. 

http://horsetalk.co.nz/2013/11/20/m...anised-welfare-operation-wales/#axzz2l8TgVCBz


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## fburton (20 November 2013)

So why can't they install webcam CCTV in abattoirs so that the workers know their conduct is being monitored? Wouldn't that push standards up?


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## Dry Rot (20 November 2013)

I haven't read the whole thread but can we look at the practicalities of setting up an equine abattoir from scratch, please?

I can see nothing wrong in PTS, but then as I've explained on another thread, I'm a farmer and life and death are part of the job. So long as the end is humane, I can see no problem.

How would a horse abattoir be financed? I think quite a few abattoirs (don't know about the horse ones) are owned by the local council and rented out to butchery companies. I used to have a kennel of about 50 of my own dogs and fed them on offal (beef tripe passed for human consumption) out of the back door of various abattoirs, so I have visited a few. 

I also had a friend who was a game dealer who supplied the pet food manufacturers. The pet food trade is VERY lucrative but extremely competitive so businesses are very fussy over their sources for obvious reasons. My friend used to buy in rabbit heads from other game dealers and had a team of people skinning them. They'd then be processed for the major pet feed companies.  One day he asked me, "How much rabbit do you think goes into a tin of rabbit cat food?". I had no idea and said so. "About a teaspoonful". Apparently, the rest is soya, animal by products, meat from the knackerman, etc.

I suspect it is emotion and politics which prevent there being more equine abattoirs. The regulations are pretty strict and I know that the red tape drives the managers of standard abattoirs to distraction! With the outcry over live exports of horses a recent memory, how many entrepreneurs would risk investing in an equine abattoir? How many charities would willingly get involved? (You can imagine what would happen to their contributions from the public if they did!).

So, how would you encourage the establishment of new equine abattoirs? If that can't be done, Princess Ann's words are wasted.


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## Nessa4 (22 November 2013)

I am not against eating horse (as long as it's not one I've been introduced to) but I do need to know that a) it is horse; and b) it has been ethically produced and killed.


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## hnmisty (22 November 2013)

Nessa4 said:



			I am not against eating horse (as long as it's not one I've been introduced to) but I do need to know that a) it is horse; and b) it has been ethically produced and killed.
		
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If I knew your (a) and (b) then I would be a lot more likely to eat horse. I am not certain I would, but I have always said I don't object to people eating horse as long as it hasn't suffered. I choose to eat free range chicken and buy British pork even though it's more expensive (always buy British meat).

It drives me mad when people go on about how no one cares about the welfare of farm animals. That is an ignorant accusation. My dad for one works very hard to neglect or abuse their livestock face punishment, this is just one case my dad was involved in http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/archive/2004/07/08/7274782._Callous__farmer_jailed/. He is a DEFRA vet and finds the welfare cases the most satisfying. I have seen him come home almost in tears from some of the farms he's been out to inspect. I was home last week and he told me of another farmer he has had prosecuted, this one for travelling cattle who weren't fit to be moved.

I think Princess Anne has spoken a lot of sense. If the kind of people who own the horses that are being dumped or left for dead knew they could get say £200 for meat from the animal (that's a number plucked from the air) if it was in good condition, but nothing if they leave it to starve, they might be more motivated to improve its welfare. 

Something needs to be done, and unless everyone who is against the slaughter of healthy but unwanted horses steps up to the plate and they are all rehomed, then what is the point in keeping them alive if it means charities can't take on cases that are more in need? 

Animals aren't people, they don't know they are living with a death sentence over their head. 

I often say I am as soft as they come, but I'm a realist. I'd love it if every neglected or abused animal could be rescued and live out its life in a nice field, but they can't. 

Here's a photo of people queuing for horse meat during WWII. 
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?sa=X...nh=175&tbnw=148&start=0&ndsp=16&tx=145&ty=226
They were hungry, so they weren't able to be as picky as we are now.


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## Alec Swan (22 November 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			I haven't read the whole thread but can we look at the practicalities of setting up an equine abattoir from scratch, please?

........
		
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I was off,  but've been tempted back.  The set up costs of new abattoirs would be prohibitive,  even for high and premium valued farm stock.  With,  or for the commercial slaughter of equines,  which would possibly be valued at 1/3 of the value of a bullock,  then it would make no sense,  what so ever.  It would also be true,  I suspect,  that a very large percentage of those equines going trough the system,  would probably not go for human consumption,  but in to the pet meat trade. 

There are,  dotted about the country,  many former and small abattoirs which have either been mothballed,  or have fallen in to misuse or disrepair.  I'd suggest that with Government approval,  if not financial assistance,  these premisses could be brought back in to business.  There would need to be an ethical approach taken whereby the correct slaughter processes were followed,  for equines,  but the conversion or rejuvenating costs should be within a sensible realm.  I'd suggest that the WHW,  or Redwings,  or any of the other phenomenally wealthy charities could contribute to the set up of the first,  and then with approval and a successful system,  so lessons could be learned,  and subsequent venues be approved and in use,  to the benefit of everyone,  and especially the equines.

Alec.


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## Penumbra (22 November 2013)

I think it is certainly a suggestion worth considering. Every year, dartmoor hill ponies are culled- off the moor, you can pick one up for less than £10 easily. As they are essentially wild animals (in the sense they have had no handling or training), they don't have any value as children's mounts. Often, there are welfare issues. These ponies aren't seen by their owners on a regular basis, so they can end up with health conditions/injuries which really need vet attention. These problems can go untreated for long periods of time, as it is hard to trace the owners of the ponies. They often look very poor in winter, and I'm sure in the harder winters, some must die of starvation, although it's hard to find the figures for this. 

As their value is so low, and they'll probably be killed anyway, owners don't bother to spend money on castrating them, so more are bred each year, often from mares that aren't that healthy in the first place. 

If the ponies are given some value (and currently some local zoos are trying to do this by using the meat to feed their animals), then perhaps the owners will be more interested in the welfare of the animals, and try to breed for a purpose- even if that purpose is meat. 

There are charities which do good work with ponies, trying to give them a value as family pets/riding ponies. I'm not suggesting this work should stop. 

The BHS is also trying to tackle the problem- through starting to offer subsidised castration for colts/stallions in some areas. However, this program is very new, and it will probably take years to have a noticable impact on the number of unwanted horses/ponies. It also doesn't solve the problem of how we deal with unwanted horses/ponies that are already here. 

I think, if horsemeat were produced safely and ethically, there could be a market for it, and this could help solve the problem of unwanted horses. I don't think humane slaughter is the worst thing that can happen to an animal.


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## Caledonia (22 November 2013)

Horsemeat is not that much cheaper than beef when it's produced in a similar manner. It certainly is a viable product, even for export. 

http://boucherie-cheval.fr/viande-chevaline-epices-recettes/

This is the current price breakdown for horse meat at the abattoir in France (no parallel in the UK) as live weight.

http://www.franceagrimer.fr/content/download/27757/245062/file/COT-VRO-equides-A13-S46.pdf

And the beef one.

http://www.franceagrimer.fr/content/download/27760/245104/file/COT-VRO-GBEA_regionale-A13-S46.pdf

I'm not savvy enough to know the breakdown of the liveweight to deadweight (meat) for beef, but it's approx 65% of the liveweight for horses.

On these figures it's certainly viable.


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## Spook (22 November 2013)

Yes! WHW, RSPCA, Redwings etc...... could/should use some of their funds to ensure the set up/supervision/monitoring ......or actually pay for an equine line (and they are different) at an abattoir or to open an existing but closed facility


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## Alec Swan (22 November 2013)

Spook said:



			Yes! WHW, RSPCA, Redwings etc...... could/should use some of their funds to ensure the set up/supervision/monitoring ......or actually pay for an equine line (and they are different) at an abattoir or to open an existing but closed facility
		
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Redwings,  as an example,  have disposable assets of some *£14mil*,  or thereabouts.  With the expenditure of just *£0.5mill*,  a new and purpose built abattoir could be constructed.  What would you imagine the chances of that to be?  That's it,  you've got it,  NIL.  What would be the point of any charity taking steps to end the problem?  Why should they render themselves redundant? 

Alec.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (23 November 2013)

Spook said:



			Yes! WHW, RSPCA, Redwings etc...... could/should use some of their funds to ensure the set up/supervision/monitoring ......or actually pay for an equine line (and they are different) at an abattoir or to open an existing but closed facility
		
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I don 't really think these charities would have the expertise etc to run such a business, and from a PR point of view , I can see the headlines now......... it may be contrary to their current policies, and while a horse meat trade seems like a good idea, skinny animals with no case history are not what buyers would require, look at the controls and documentation which are kept by farmers, it is no longer possible just to to keep a few animals for fattening.


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## Caledonia (23 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			I don 't really think these charities would have the expertise etc to run such a business, and from a PR point of view , I can see the headlines now......... it may be contrary to their current policies, and while a horse meat trade seems like a good idea, skinny animals with no case history are not what buyers would require, look at the controls and documentation which are kept by farmers, it is no longer possible just to to keep a few animals for fattening.
		
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Of course they would be able to run an abattoir. It's hardly rocket science. And the point PA made was that there was a greater likelihood of the animals being kept fed when they had a value for doing so.

The enforced documentation would be the biggest step forward. Its the lack thereof that is partially responsible for the mess horses are currently in.


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## Spook (23 November 2013)

Actually historically horses were gathered/bought for fattening in just the same way that cattle and sheep are now....... when they were "fit" they went to slaughter, they were well fed, kept and carefully transported....... bruised stock were/are not well received as that meat had to be rejected. Horse meat was sold in both Leeds and Manchester as late as the 1960s..... and sold as such..

Is there any good reason why an appropriate "withdrawal period" cannot be decided on for horses as it is for all other meat animals?

I agree that the chances of the Charities funding any slaughter houses are almost nil, but that still does not mean that such action would not. be in the best interests of equine welfare........ Indeed in the long run there may well not be enough horses to keep such facilities running all the time unless there is a huge demand for the meat..... then I suppose they will be bred for the job. I agree Mrs D123 that the charities may not have the "expertise"....... but they do have the funds to pay for it.

Failing this, another sensible solution would be for the charities to bite the bullet so to speak and organise a mass funded cull . Perhaps one day a month when you could take a horse in for pts and disposal at the expense of WHW or RSPCA for example...... probably not overly acceptable to them either....... might rattle the vets up a tad too.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (23 November 2013)

Caledonia said:



			Of course they would be able to run an abattoir. It's hardly rocket science. And the point PA made was that there was a greater likelihood of the animals being kept fed when they had a value for doing so.

The enforced documentation would be the biggest step forward. Its the lack thereof that is partially responsible for the mess horses are currently in.
		
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Not sure how lack of documentation has contributed to the problem, most pet horses are signed off from the meat trade, and horse owners are not like UK farmers who are already subject to a lot of control, and are used to form filling.
I don't know what extra documentation is required, or how it would help. All I know is that the passport system and the requirement that it is kept with the horse allows people to take horses away from their legal owners, and if they so wish, to dispose of the animal........... I just sold a horse, and presumably the new owner has changed the passport, I have not been informed.
Enforcing microchipping would also add to costs, and when we are talking about animals which are very low value anyway, I think they would end up in the same downward spiral  we see today.


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## Dry Rot (23 November 2013)

How do knackeries operate? Are they government funded in any way? Yes, I realise they have to be paid to take away fallen stock, but then they take everything, even going carcases,  and need to be paid. Do they not make a profit on clean fresh knacker meat (i.e. horse)?

The point I was trying to make in my previous post was that there is money in pet food. Of course, there is money in horse meat for human consumption but I doubt whether there is sufficient demand for it in this country.

I used to correspond with a Chinese vet in Taiwan. He told me that what I was buying for under £2 for 12kgs to feed to my dogs, he would be paying £12 per kilo for human consumption! He also added, "We Chinese eat everything".

So maybe we could sell our horse meat to the Chinese and I will be able to afford to buy steak again!

I cannot see any of the rescues or charities wanting to be involved in anything that openly involves the slaughter of animals. How many little old ladies would contribute to that?


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## Caledonia (23 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			Not sure how lack of documentation has contributed to the problem, most pet horses are signed off from the meat trade, and horse owners are not like UK farmers who are already subject to a lot of control, and are used to form filling.
I don't know what extra documentation is required, or how it would help. All I know is that the passport system and the requirement that it is kept with the horse allows people to take horses away from their legal owners, and if they so wish, to dispose of the animal........... I just sold a horse, and presumably the new owner has changed the passport, I have not been informed.
Enforcing microchipping would also add to costs, and when we are talking about animals which are very low value anyway, I think they would end up in the same downward spiral  we see today.
		
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But it's the lack of traceability that has allowed situations like Tom Price owning thousands of unregistered horses (and the others that do what he does, but as yet haven't been brought to account) and just abandoning those that won't make him money at Appleby or wherever.

If there was traceability, then these situations would be far rarer.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (23 November 2013)

Caledonia said:



			But it's the lack of traceability that has allowed situations like Tom Price owning thousands of unregistered horses (and the others that do what he does, but as yet haven't been brought to account) and just abandoning those that won't make him money at Appleby or wherever.

If there was traceability, then these situations would be far rarer.
		
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I don't know the in and the outs, but experience tells me the criminals in society just use any means to make money, they really don't care, and who is going to "police" these matters............ the local police have no expertise, it is not something they would/could take the initiative.
Unregistered horses, I assume  you mean un-passported, there is no single register for horses to my knowledge, individual horses are often passported by owners who wish to sell legally, it costs maybe £50, so no one buying horses @£100 is going to bother. Criminals don't bother too much about documentation, it would work to their disadvantage.
In every trade there is potential for criminality, it occurs in the meat trade in spite of documentation and regulation at markets, a place where most meat animals have to go..........  only illegal slaughter can avoid it., but illegal slaughter still occurs, people rustle animals then kill them, then sell the meat. It is illegal, all you need is a dark night, a Stanley knife, and a willing buyer.


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## Caledonia (23 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			I don't know the in and the outs, but experience tells me the criminals in society just use any means to make money, they really don't care, and who is going to "police" these matters............ the local police have no expertise, it is not something they would/could take the initiative.
Unregistered horses, I assume  you mean un-passported, there is no single register for horses to my knowledge, individual horses are often passported by owners who wish to sell legally, it costs maybe £50, so no one buying horses @£100 is going to bother. Criminals don't bother too much about documentation, it would work to their disadvantage.
In every trade there is potential for criminality, it occurs in the meat trade in spite of documentation and regulation at markets, a place where most meat animals have to go..........  only illegal slaughter can avoid it., but illegal slaughter still occurs, people rustle animals then kill them, then sell the meat. It is illegal, all you need is a dark night, a Stanley knife, and a willing buyer.
		
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There would need to be a register for horses if the horse became accepted as a meat animal. And that can only be a good thing. The reason they (the dodgepots) get away with it just now is because there is NO obligatory system. It would, however mean ownership etc was far easier to prove. It might stop the indiscriminate breeding id every animal HAD to be registered, or face a whoppong fine and animals seized. 

With a legitimate source for horsemeat in a registered abattoir, the backyard butchers would be way less necessary. 

I really don't understand your negativity - with the apathy in your replies, nothing will change.


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## Holly Hocks (23 November 2013)

An issue I see is that if every horse has to have a passport, if someone decides not to fill in the page "not for slaughter", then the vets are unable to give the animal certain drugs and this in itself may cause a welfare issue in that illness/injuries may not receive adequate medication.  After all, we've all seen cows and sheep limping round fields.  Is that what we want to see horses doing?


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## Alec Swan (23 November 2013)

Holly Hocks said:



			....... if someone decides not to fill in the page "not for slaughter", then the vets are unable to give the animal certain drugs and this in itself may cause a welfare issue in that illness/injuries may not receive adequate medication.  After all, we've all seen cows and sheep limping round fields.  Is that what we want to see horses doing?
		
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You've raised two points,  firstly;

I don't really understand the page which you quote,  because as you rightly say,  any owner can elect to take the horse out of the slaughter system by signing page IX (I think it is),  but then if they sell the horse,  I would think that gives the next owner the opportunity to sign the *subsequent* page,  and with a *subsequent* date,  which would I suspect override the previous owners wishes,  and place the horse straight back in to the slaughter system.  Is there anyone out there who can give a clear answer to this,  rather than a possible opinion?  Can anyone clearly explain the workings of two separate and contradictory pages?

Secondly;  lame cattle and sheep are as entitled to the protection of the Law as are horses,  and I can assure you that the Farm Teams from Trading Standards WILL visit those who keep consistently lame stock.

Alec.


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## Holly Hocks (23 November 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			You've raised two points,  firstly;

I don't really understand the page which you quote,  because as you rightly say,  any owner can elect to take the horse out of the slaughter system by signing page IX (I think it is),  but then if they sell the horse,  I would think that gives the next owner the opportunity to sign the *subsequent* page,  and with a *subsequent* date,  which would I suspect override the previous owners wishes,  and place the horse straight back in to the slaughter system.  Is there anyone out there who can give a clear answer to this,  rather than a possible opinion?  Can anyone clearly explain the workings of two separate and contradictory pages?

Secondly;  lame cattle and sheep are as entitled to the protection of the Law as are horses,  and I can assure you that the Farm Teams from Trading Standards WILL visit those who keep consistently lame stock.

Alec.
		
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Thanks Alec.  
Yes the page I mean is the page you are talking about.  I fail to see how the horse can be put back into the slaughter system as if it has been signed out of it it may have been given drugs which mean the horse cannot be used for slaughter.   But I will try and find my passport and have a look (why can you never find these things when you want them!)

My query was more about if horses became a farm meat product and farmers farmed horses as they would sheep and cows.  If a horse became injured, surely they wouldn't be treated appropriately because the drugs they are allowed would be limited.   I would just hate the thought of horses being in pain because they were destined for the food chain.


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## Toffee_monster (23 November 2013)

Saneta said:



			There might be a good suggestion here, but if this did happen, how many people would actually eat horsemeat within the UK I wonder?
		
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I would ! And i eat it whener i am in france, it is lean and as beautiful as fillet steak !


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## Caledonia (23 November 2013)

Holly Hocks said:



			An issue I see is that if every horse has to have a passport, if someone decides not to fill in the page "not for slaughter", then the vets are unable to give the animal certain drugs and this in itself may cause a welfare issue in that illness/injuries may not receive adequate medication.  After all, we've all seen cows and sheep limping round fields.  Is that what we want to see horses doing?
		
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Do you really believe that the horses such as those that were seized recently had any medication, or care? And given that the authorities had to euthanase so many, I'm guessing that limping round fields was the least of their welfare worries.


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## bonny (23 November 2013)

I think that all this talk about eating unwanted horses is fudging the issue which is that they are being bred in huge numbers in the first place. Finding something to do with the unwanted cannot be the answer, more will just be bred and the problem will continue. I see no evidence that people in the UK want to eat horses, I think if the demand was there then it would be filled already, food suppliers are not slow to supply anything if there is profit in it.


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## Holly Hocks (23 November 2013)

Caledonia said:



			Do you really believe that the horses such as those that were seized recently had any medication, or care? And given that the authorities had to euthanase so many, I'm guessing that limping round fields was the least of their welfare worries.
		
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no of course not - that is why my question was regarding whether if horses became actually farmed rather than just indiscriminately overbred and herded off the moors.


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## Caledonia (24 November 2013)

bonny said:



			I think that all this talk about eating unwanted horses is fudging the issue which is that they are being bred in huge numbers in the first place. Finding something to do with the unwanted cannot be the answer, more will just be bred and the problem will continue. I see no evidence that people in the UK want to eat horses, I think if the demand was there then it would be filled already, food suppliers are not slow to supply anything if there is profit in it.
		
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Sure that's the root of the problem, but what about those horses that need to be disposed of now? Those in foal for the next year, and the ongoing chain of reproduction in horses that are left to run with with mares and foals together? What about the horses that get older and people want to sell to get a new one that does their job better? What about those that people simply can't afford any more? Those that have an injury that means they can't be competitive, or ridden? People can't afford companions. 

There are far too many horses in the UK, and it will take many years to try and regulate the numbers. In the interim, thousands of horses will suffer, either through neglect or being shipped abroad for slaughter, often with an ongoing trip to Italy after time in a holding farm. 

Everything needs addressing. The suffering horses won't magically disappear because the idea of eating horsemeat is distasteful to some people here. There is however an export market for horsemeat, and it wouldn't be hard to convert some abattoirs to having a slaughter day for horses, pretty much how it works at Potters anyway.

Giving the unwanted horses value as a food will go a long way to helping their welfare.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (24 November 2013)

Caledonia said:



			There would need to be a register for horses if the horse became accepted as a meat animal. And that can only be a good thing. The reason they (the dodgepots) get away with it just now is because there is NO obligatory system. It would, however mean ownership etc was far easier to prove. It might stop the indiscriminate breeding id every animal HAD to be registered, or face a whoppong fine and animals seized. 

With a legitimate source for horsemeat in a registered abattoir, the backyard butchers would be way less necessary. 

I really don't understand your negativity - with the apathy in your replies, nothing will change.
		
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It is fine to sit here and say, we need a register of horses.......... OK, thismight work if everyone who owns a horse is willing to pay a nominal fee, say £25.00 for registering, but there is probably only one way to easily identify horses and that is the microchip, [though we know these can be removed if somebody really wants to].
So the owner needs to fork out another £75.00 for microchipping, plus £25.00 for the passport.

To be practical, how would it work with the feral ponies on the moor, I am just not sure........
In Ye Olden Days there used to be a dog licence, it cost 7/- and 6d! ie £5.00. I don't think anybody except responsible dog owners bought one, and the scheme was dropped....

Any sort of system is going to require EC and or UK parliamentary time, the existing charities are not even discussing this, hence HRH Anne's suggestion.
It is not negativity, it is just not the answer for the horses and  ponies who are "in the system"

I don t think there is a single register for cattle or for sheep, as far as I am aware, meat traceability is done by tagging the ears and records being kept by the farmer, the tags are issued in batches to farmers, he has to record when each tag is used, and that record is kept by him.


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## Caledonia (24 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			It is fine to sit here and say, we need a register of horses.......... OK, thismight work if everyone who owns a horse is willing to pay a nominal fee, say £25.00 for registering, but there is probably only one way to easily identify horses and that is the microchip, [though we know these can be removed if somebody really wants to].
So the owner needs to fork out another £75.00 for microchipping, plus £25.00 for the passport.

To be practical, how would it work with the feral ponies on the moor, I am just not sure........
In Ye Olden Days there used to be a dog licence, it cost 7/- and 6d! ie £5.00. I don't think anybody except responsible dog owners bought one, and the scheme was dropped....

Any sort of system is going to require EC and or UK parliamentary time, the existing charities are not even discussing this, hence HRH Anne's suggestion.
It is not negativity, it is just not the answer for the horses and  ponies who are "in the system"

I don t think there is a single register for cattle or for sheep, as far as I am aware, meat traceability is done by tagging the ears and records being kept by the farmer, the tags are issued in batches to farmers, he has to record when each tag is used, and that record is kept by him.
		
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I am fully aware it's going to involve work, but quite frankly, if people who own a horse cannot afford to chip and passport them, they they should NOT own them. How will they pay a vet bill, or farrier? If done along the lines of the French system including an owners card additional to the passport then it also safeguards proof of ownership of their horse. 

There is already a perfectly good database model in the Weatherbys system. As Weatherbys is a PIO for all horses now, then all it would take is more staff and computers to kickstart the process. And you are absolutely wrong that the charities are not discussing this - of course they are. Using the dog parallel won't work, as AFAIK nobody has yet mooted eating them here. 

As far as the feral ponies go, then there will be a way of addressing that. They are all owned by people, so the onus is on them to identify and protect these ponies. Frankly, they've got away with neglect for years because of the laxity of the system. So many of these ponies are worth nothing because they are overstocked and inbred, or outbred to make nice colours that have deformed many of them, certainly in the case of the Dartmoor Hill ponies. 

You seem determined to allow the status quo of misery to be maintained - how about putting some thought into a genuine solution, rather than nit-picking at the ideas of those who are genuinely trying to help horses.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (24 November 2013)

Obviously I don't want to see ponies starving, I've just spent an arm and a leg rescuing one and finding a new home. 
I am just being practical, the only way that particular pony was going to find a new home was if I bought him and re-homed him, and he can't be the only one, there was nowhere for him to go. 
I have said before , there is no easy solution,  I am not against meat eating or anything, I just don't see any sort of practical solution which can be set up this winter.


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## Maesfen (24 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			I don t think there is a single register for cattle or for sheep, as far as I am aware, meat traceability is done by tagging the ears and records being kept by the farmer, the tags are issued in batches to farmers, he has to record when each tag is used, and that record is kept by him.
		
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For cattle there is indeed a database/register and woe betide you if you haven't applied for calf passports within 28 days of birth, you don't get second chances except in exceptional circumstances.  From the day that calf is registered to the day it is finally slaughtered, that database will be kept up to date as by law they have to be notified within 3 days of any change of owner with huge fines if you don't comply.  It's a shame there isn't the same for horses.  Sheep also have to have 'known whereabouts' at all times, and each sheep should have an individual number plus flock number.
Until we can get horses reclassified as an agricultural animal it will always be at a disadvantage through lack of the regulations that protect other species of farm animal.  Get that done and you might see abattoirs more willing to accept horses too.


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## Dizzy socks (24 November 2013)

Not read thread- but what will stop them being treated like cattle, where conditions are often very unsavory?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (24 November 2013)

Dizzy socks said:



			Not read thread- but what will stop them being treated like cattle, where conditions are often very unsavory?
		
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I don't think conditions will be particularly unsavoury in UK cattle abattoirs, it is my understanding that a lot of work goes in to making the whole process calm and clean. I certainly have seen this in a modern chicken processing line.
It is many years since I went to Glasgow meat market, I was there when the Rabbi was doing his bit ............. that was not nice, but it was clean, and I suppose it was legal.
Most animals are handled quietly, there will always be exceptions.

Having said that, it is not something I would want for my pet, so should  I want it for unknown animals? It is a dilemma. If the option is starve slowly or die quickly , then the latter option seems clear, unfortunately, there does not seem to be such a clear cut choice.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (24 November 2013)

Caledonia said:



			I am fully aware it's going to involve work, but quite frankly, if people who own a horse cannot afford to chip and passport them, they they should NOT own them. How will they pay a vet bill, or farrier?
		
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Is this not the whole problem , people who allow their animals to starve are NOT responsible owners, they won't be calling a vet or a farrier.


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## Dizzy socks (24 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			I don't think conditions will be particularly unsavoury in UK cattle abattoirs, it is my understanding that a lot of work goes in to making the whole process calm and clean. I certainly have seen this in a modern chicken processing line.
It is many years since I went to Glasgow meat market, I was there when the Rabbi was doing his bit ............. that was not nice, but it was clean, and I suppose it was legal.
Most animals are handled quietly, there will always be exceptions.

Having said that, it is not something I would want for my pet, so should  I want it for unknown animals? It is a dilemma. If the option is starve slowly or die quickly , then the latter option seems clear, unfortunately, there does not seem to be such a clear cut choice.
		
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I don't mean the abattoirs - I mean simply in the housing. I think progress should be made to have cows treated more like horses - not the other way around.

How many cows do we see living in makeshift, crowded accommodation, which leaks, that are not let out or mucked out the whole winter. Is this what we want for our horses??


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## Alec Swan (24 November 2013)

Dizzy socks said:



			.......

How many cows do we see living in makeshift, crowded accommodation, which leaks, that are not let out or mucked out the whole winter. Is this what we want for our horses??
		
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A popular misconception.  Deep litter has a purpose behind it.  Deep litter,  whilst going through the rotting down process gives off heat,  and cattle in the warm will thrive where those in the cold,  regardless of their food intake,  will not.  With the heat being given off by deep litter,  so cattle are actually encouraged to lie down,  and a resting animal will put on weight and prosper.  Assuming that animals have somewhere warm  and comparatively dry to lie down (and that includes horses) they'll come to no harm on deep litter.

All may not always be as it would seem!

Alec.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (24 November 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			A popular misconception.  Deep litter has a purpose behind it.  Deep litter,  whilst going through the rotting down process gives off heat,  and cattle in the warm will thrive where those in the cold,  regardless of their food intake,  will not.  With the heat being given off by deep litter,  so cattle are actually encouraged to lie down,  and a resting animal will put on weight and prosper.  Assuming that animals have somewhere warm  and comparatively dry to lie down (and that includes horses) they'll come to no harm on deep litter.
omg Alec, don't you know you have just released whole generation of lazy idle so and so from keeping a clean bed for their pony
All may not always be as it would seem!

Alec.
		
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OMG Alec, don't you know you have just released whole generation of lazy idle so and so's  from giving pony a clean bed:  "pony does not get mucked out .....  he is on deep litter"
Deep litter for cattle depends on management as with everything else and also on ventilation, coop a load of young calves in nice warm building and they will go down with pneumonia at the drop of a hat


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## Exploding Chestnuts (24 November 2013)

When I suggested to a local farmer that he could have horses on his farmland over winter, he pointed out to me that the cattle were housed in winter to keep them clean, and to keep the fields in good condition. They are a lot better off welfare wise than 40 years ago when all milk cows were kept tied up by the neck seven months of the year. Not saying that things can't be improved, but cattle sheds do allow them to wander around and eat as much as they like.


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