# Trainers Championship



## Clodagh (16 April 2016)

Well it is going to the wire! How exciting.
Paul Nicholls was on a roll today on C4 (just feeding dogs then back to RUK for the last few).
Who do you think will win? I would hate it to go to Ireland.


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## Elf On A Shelf (16 April 2016)

I was rooting for Nichols in the National because it would have laid it to bed.  Then I was rooting for Mullins in the Scottish to seal it. Basically so the pair of them didn't come and steal all.of Perth's prizes with their 10th string horses so the rest of us would have a chance next week! 

But now with Nichols, Mullins, Twiston-Davies and Elliot all sending horses to Perth we are Screwed! Yes with a capital S lol


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## Clodagh (16 April 2016)

Oh dear. Will be good for Perth racecourse though!


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## Elf On A Shelf (16 April 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Oh dear. Will be good for Perth racecourse though!
		
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It'll be great for Perth to be fair.


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## Fiona (16 April 2016)

How much is pn ahead by?

I would have loved to see Willie Mullins keep it 

Fiona


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## Clodagh (16 April 2016)

Bah Fiona! You are from the wrong side of the sea. ;-)
I don't know by how much he is now in front, the website is not up to date.


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## Elf On A Shelf (16 April 2016)

Nichols is up by just over £33k. Neither have many entries on the last day of Perth and a decent handful over the previous 2 days. I am guessing they are both gunning for the big races on Saturday at Sandown.


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## Alec Swan (16 April 2016)

How sporting we are,  wishing that one trainer will win,  but only because we would REALLY hate it if another were to win!  Mind you,  I'm no better!! 

I wouldn't deny anyone success,  but when Mullins came over to Cheltenham with 64 horses,  what earthly chance have the smaller establishments got?  It's such a shame that success breeds success and that without a name and a reputation,  some of the smaller and equally competent trainers don't have the quality of horses offered to them that the big boys get.  It's the way of the world,  I suppose.

Alec.


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## Fiona (16 April 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Bah Fiona! You are from the wrong side of the sea. ;-)
I don't know by how much he is now in front, the website is not up to date.
		
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lol clodagh... I'd cheer an English trainer too if it were to beat pn 

Very true Alec,  but realistically a smaller trainer is v unlikely to win it aren't they, and there seem to be lots of new young trainers winning big races which is great for the sport 

Fiona


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## Dobiegirl (16 April 2016)

I see Willie Mullins has a horse entered at Taunton where PN has horses entered, that looks a bit personal to me and is hardly sporting.


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## AdorableAlice (16 April 2016)

Fiona said:



			lol clodagh... I'd cheer an English trainer too if it were to beat pn 

Very true Alec,  but realistically a smaller trainer is v unlikely to win it aren't they, and there seem to be lots of new young trainers winning big races which is great for the sport 

Fiona
		
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And me, can't bear the arrogant git.  I would like to see a cap on numbers that can be trained by one trainer.  Racing would be far more fair and interesting if the horses were spread out more.  Obviously standards must be maintained.  There is no way one man can manage a yard of 100 plus horses.  It is the unsung staff that train those horses for someone else to take the credit for.

Of course it will never happen and owners can place their horses where they want, but the monopoly that Mullins and Nicholls have is boring.  I love seeing the younger trainers have a good day.


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## Clodagh (16 April 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			I see Willie Mullins has a horse entered at Taunton where PN has horses entered, that looks a bit personal to me and is hardly sporting.
		
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Do you remember the PN v Martin Pipe battles? Horses were running twice a week in some cases, was true poor sportsmanship at its very worst.


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## AdorableAlice (16 April 2016)

Is there a monetary prize for the championship ?


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## Clodagh (16 April 2016)

I dion't think so, just kudos really. (IAm not 100% on that).


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## Elf On A Shelf (16 April 2016)

Just the glory of winning. If you think that Mullins has won over £2million on British turf you then need to add on what he has won in Ireland to give his seasons total. Scary numbers!

Pipe vs Nichols came down to the final race at Sandown one year. It was down to pounds and pence. There were 10 runners in the race - 5 from each trainer. Who ever got the most place money won. Pipe brought home the winner and another 3 in the money thus got the championship. 

That would have been a good race for some small trainer to spoil the party at lol!


ETA: Mullins has won over &#8364;2million in Ireland alone too so bringing his total to over £4million ...


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## Dobiegirl (17 April 2016)

I remember the Pipe v Nicholls farce and how Martin Pipe was flying horses all over the country, personally I would love to see someone like Colin Tizzard win or Dan Skelton.

Its frightening the calibre of horses WM has, is it because he has owners with deep pockets or is he doing something that someone else isnt doing.


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## Alec Swan (17 April 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Its frightening the calibre of horses WM has, is it because he has owners with deep pockets or is he doing something that someone else isnt doing.
		
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Success breeds Success and it tends to be as a snowball rolling down a hillside.  Every now and then there's a blip,  the trainer (think Sir Henry here),  falls out of favour and the rug's pulled from under them.  

It's often to do with egos and following on from the Nichols/Stewart fall out,  as soon as a trainer slips off the radar,  even by an inch,  those owners desperate to succeed will be looking elsewhere.  Racing's a fickle creature!

Alec.


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## Maesfen (17 April 2016)

To a certain extent, it's a shame the Champion Trainer isn't limited to the British Isles rather than have 'an invader' come and plunder the richest races.  You don't see Nicholls and Co., competing for the Irish Trainers Championship even if they had the ammunition that WM has.

BTW, looks like Kashgui (sp) will be having NH runners too if talks with Mullins and Rich bear fruit!


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## Dobiegirl (17 April 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Success breeds Success and it tends to be as a snowball rolling down a hillside.  Every now and then there's a blip,  the trainer (think Sir Henry here),  falls out of favour and the rug's pulled from under them.  

It's often to do with egos and following on from the Nichols/Stewart fall out,  as soon as a trainer slips off the radar,  even by an inch,  those owners desperate to succeed will be looking elsewhere.  Racing's a fickle creature!

Alec.
		
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Paul Nicholls hasnt fallen out with Andy Stewart, I think you mean Clive Smith.


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## Alec Swan (17 April 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			Paul Nicholls hasnt fallen out with Andy Stewart, I think you mean Clive Smith.
		
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Wrong owner,  so wrong name.  Thank you for the correction.

Alec.


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## popsdosh (17 April 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			Paul Nicholls hasnt fallen out with Andy Stewart, I think you mean Clive Smith.
		
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I dont think PN lost much sleep over that one. You can have to many egos in a yard.


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## Clodagh (17 April 2016)

Dan Skelton has done well this year, and will do even better next. apparently though he won't train for owners with retained jockeys, so no Isaac Meneer (spell?) or McManus horses will be off to him. 
I agree that the Irish shouldn't be able to contest 'our' competiiton, although you can't blame them for doing so when they can.
Philip Hobbs on the ML said that it was Mullins' buying policy, he said there is no point waiting until the horse has won its race, by the time it has pulled up Mullins' agents have already bought it - or words to that effect. Anyone with enough money could do that.


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## Clodagh (17 April 2016)

popsdosh said:



			I dont think PN lost much sleep over that one. You can have to many egos in a yard.
		
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I agree, and although CS had two fantastic horses he didn't have a yard full of them.


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## Mariposa (17 April 2016)

I'm rooting for PN! Nothing against Willie Mullins and his stable of amazing horses, but I do get a little bored when he wins everything.....


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## AdorableAlice (17 April 2016)

Mr Nicholls would enter his grandmother if there was a quid to be won.


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## Maesfen (17 April 2016)

Lol AA!

He does seem to give off the feeling he's a bit more ruthless/greedy now than he used to be but TBF to him, he did lose at least three stars in very quick succession who used to bring home the bacon; it must be hard to go back to mostly young horses and build up again.


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## AdorableAlice (17 April 2016)

Maesfen said:



			Lol AA!

He does seem to give off the feeling he's a bit more ruthless/greedy now than he used to be but TBF to him, he did lose at least three stars in very quick succession who used to bring home the bacon; it must be hard to go back to mostly young horses and build up again.
		
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I saw him being rude  at a small meeting a few years ago, what you see on C4 and the real thing is different.


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## Maesfen (17 April 2016)

No excuses for being rude at all.   Playing up for the camera is an art form for some; our local trainer comes to mind!


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## zaminda (17 April 2016)

I would like to see the championship being done on winners, not prize money. It is just as hard to train a small winner as a big one. Most of the trainers are very different in public, although I've been told PN is pretty good to work for. PN also doesn't have the numbers WM does.


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## Alec Swan (17 April 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Mr Nicholls would enter his grandmother if there was a quid to be won.
		
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I suspect that he isn't alone,  but; 

Alec.


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## HashRouge (17 April 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Mr Nicholls would enter his grandmother if there was a quid to be won.
		
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That's cracked me up


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## KautoStar1 (18 April 2016)

I think its great for racing to have another challenger to the trainers title.  PN has won it plenty of times and well deserved I am sure from a training perspective (not keen on the man himself) but its good to have someone else come in and shake things up a bit and WM is perfectly entitled to bring his horses over to run here, just as the British trainers can go to Ireland anytime they want.   Why they don&#8217;t is their choice but I guess most of the top races are here in Britain, when you consider our fixtures there are really good graded races every month.  Imagine if he didn&#8217;t (or wasn&#8217;t allowed to) bring his horses, we (the paying punter) would miss out on seeing the likes of Annie Power, Douvan, Faugheen, Vatour &#8211; blimey the list is endless is it.  As Alec said, success breeds success and that counts for any sport or business.  The fact he has some of the best horses is because of this.  It might be dull for some that he wins everything, but his horses are on the whole breathtakingly good.  Clever buying certainly, but he and his team still have to manage these talented and delicate animals.   He and PN are also very good at placing their horses in the right races, giving themselves the best chance of a winner.
Whether WM will win the title is yet to be decided, but what is most remarkable is that his UK prize money total has been won from very few races (23) and with a very few horses, when you compare to PN (111).


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## Maesfen (18 April 2016)

KautoStar1 said:



			but what is most remarkable is that his UK prize money total has been won from very few races (23) and with a very few horses, when you compare to PN (111).
		
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Yes, but they have been the top sponsored prize money races not a run of the mill chase at Bangor so he hasn't had to win many to get to that amount of prize money unlike many of both PN and Nicky Hendersons & Co., which have been bread and butter races.

Nobody's denying WM talent and appreciate his stars coming over; they're doing nothing but good for racing, just saying it's unfair that he's allowed into the British trainer's championship simply because the races have been held over here.  I'm sure the Irish would say the same if one of our trainers went and plundered their own championship just by winning a few big races up against those that slog for months on end in their own country.  
WM isn't so much a raider now, he could take out British citizenship!


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## KautoStar1 (18 April 2016)

That's true Maesfen but hes won just as many races at home in Ireland as PN has over here.

I suspect he just targeted the usual grade 1 UK races with his good horses, as he has done for the last few years as normal and the championship thing has just snowballed in the usual media frenzy.  I wonder if it was ever intentional ?

Its odd how the championships vary though, very inconsistent with number of winners for jockeys and prize money for trainers.  Wish the BHA would sort that out.


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## Maesfen (18 April 2016)

Totally agree.  It should be races won, not prize money for both of them.  Only takes a couple of big money wins to screw it up unfairly.


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## Dobiegirl (18 April 2016)

When you think how many Grade 1 horses WMs has compared to PNs 1, Colin Tizzard has 2 so that gives you some idea that PN doesnt have the fire power of old but then he only had 3/4 in the good old days.

Un Deaux Seaux takes on Sprinter Sacre again at Sandown and I hope yet again SS proves the better horse, it will be some race though and the one Im looking forward to the most.


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## Mariposa (18 April 2016)

Maesfen said:



			Totally agree.  It should be races won, not prize money for both of them.  Only takes a couple of big money wins to screw it up unfairly.
		
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I totally agree! It should  be like it is in the Jockey's championship.


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## Alec Swan (18 April 2016)

Mariposa said:



			I totally agree! It should  be like it is in the Jockey's championship.
		
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Or possibly F1?  Points for placings rather than money won and with say the first three placed being on a sliding scale,  would have the high flying trainers entering horses upon their possible merit,  rather than the value of the winnings,  at least for the race of the most successful trainer.

Alec.


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## popsdosh (18 April 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Or possibly F1?  Points for placings rather than money won and with say the first three placed being on a sliding scale,  would have the high flying trainers entering horses upon their possible merit,  rather than the value of the winnings,  at least for the race of the most successful trainer.

Alec.
		
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It depends how you quantify success does it not.


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## Elf On A Shelf (18 April 2016)

If you did it on winners not money then McCain would have won it hands down a couple of.times. He used to send out winner after winner after winner at all the small.meetings but only had a couple of very good horses. 

That was before the bust up and he lost half.of his string though.


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## Clodagh (18 April 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			Un Deaux Seaux takes on Sprinter Sacre gain at Sandown and I hope yet again SS proves the better horse, it will be some race though and the one Im looking forward to the most.
		
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I am not sure that my heart can stand it! I am working Saturday morning, home in time for Sandown and am not speaking to a soul for the afternoon.


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## Clodagh (18 April 2016)

EKW said:



			If you did it on winners not money then McCain would have won it hands down a couple of.times. He used to send out winner after winner after winner at all the small.meetings but only had a couple of very good horses. 

That was before the bust up and he lost half.of his string though.
		
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I have been meaning to ask you - I see Jason Maguire went with the big owenrs (can't remember their names)... I thought him and DMcC were best friends? It must have been a double kick to lose your best horses and you friend. What happened? Is it common knowledge? I was so glad they didn't win the National!


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## Alec Swan (18 April 2016)

EKW said:



			If you did it on winners not money then McCain would have won it hands down a couple of.times. He used to send out winner after winner after winner at all the small.meetings but only had a couple of very good horses. 

&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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But if the Trainer's Championship was based upon winners and placings rather than the monies won,  then rather than one trainer winning all the classics or the most lucrative races and being at the top of the tree,  (s)he'd need to enter horses regardless of the potential winnings.  Stands to reason! 

Alec.


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## Dobiegirl (23 April 2016)

PN has won his 10th trainers title, congratulations to him and wasnt Sprinter Sacre just wonderful again today.


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## Clodagh (23 April 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			PN has won his 10th trainers title, congratulations to him and wasnt Sprinter Sacre just wonderful again today.
		
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I cried! (not for Paul Nicholls, although am delighted and huge congratulations to him) but when they showed the montage of SS beforehand and then when he won. I love that horse.
My RUK subscription finished today (I do it for 18 months at a time as I don't watch in the summer) so I can't watch the last three races, why is Vroom Vroom Mag a non runner? Is Willie having a sulk? I thought you weren't allowed to withdraw on a whim?


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## Dobiegirl (23 April 2016)

According to the RP VVM was withdrawn once Willie knew his chances of wining the trainers title was gone, presumably if she won it wouldnt have clinched the title for him. It does sound like a sulk as he will have robbed many racegoers the chance of seeing her as she is a special girl. PNs got the 1st and 2nd in that race just to further enhance his winnings. I do hope the stewards take a dim view of the withdrawal, WMs has certainly gone down in my estimation.With his challenge over, Mullins withdrew Vroum Vroum Mag from her intended race later on the card.


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## Clodagh (23 April 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			According to the RP VVM was withdrawn once Willie knew his chances of wining the trainers title was gone, presumably if she won it wouldnt have clinched the title for him. It does sound like a sulk as he will have robbed many racegoers the chance of seeing her as she is a special girl. PNs got the 1st and 2nd in that race just to further enhance his winnings. I do hope the stewards take a dim view of the withdrawal, WMs has certainly gone down in my estimation.
		
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Yes, I am ashamed of him, where do you stand if you had a bet before hand?


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## Dobiegirl (23 April 2016)

Presumably Clodagh it will be refunded, it certainly shows his contempt for the racegoers and Im sure she will be re-routed to Punchestown.


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## bonny (23 April 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			According to the RP VVM was withdrawn once Willie knew his chances of wining the trainers title was gone, presumably if she won it wouldnt have clinched the title for him. It does sound like a sulk as he will have robbed many racegoers the chance of seeing her as she is a special girl. PNs got the 1st and 2nd in that race just to further enhance his winnings. I do hope the stewards take a dim view of the withdrawal, WMs has certainly gone down in my estimation.
		
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Same here, I'm really pleased he didn't win the championship, assume he's keeping the mare for Punchestown now, he'll get a fine I imagine but won't care. Brilliant day's racing, sad that it's the end of the season and we've all summer to wait till it starts again !


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## bonny (23 April 2016)

See they have both withdrawn horses from the last race, be interesting to see what happens now ?


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## Clodagh (23 April 2016)

bonny said:



			See they have both withdrawn horses from the last race, be interesting to see what happens now ?
		
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That is shocking. :-(


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## Goldenstar (23 April 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			PN has won his 10th trainers title, congratulations to him and wasnt Sprinter Sacre just wonderful again today.
		
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He was wow just wow nothing else you can say .
Like a racehorse from a dream .


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## Dobiegirl (23 April 2016)

http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=16272824&category=0

So he has admitted it though and then adds he is sorry for the racegoers and punters, the punters will Im sure get their money back but would imagine a lot more people wanted the chance to see her in action.

I just think it smacks of poor sportmanship and Im sorry to see PNs has done the same.


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## Dobiegirl (23 April 2016)

Nicholls and Mullins also withdrew runners for the final race on the card. Mullins, who went on to win the British jumps season's final race with McKinley, scratched Burgas, while Nicholls took out Alcala and Chartbreaker.

All three withdrawals were blamed on the change of going and no penalties were handed out.


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## bonny (23 April 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			Nicholls and Mullins also withdrew runners for the final race on the card. Mullins, who went on to win the British jumps season's final race with McKinley, scratched Burgas, while Nicholls took out Alcala and Chartbreaker.

All three withdrawals were blamed on the change of going and no penalties were handed out.
		
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I guess they were lenient with them both in the circumstances and considering it was the last race of the season. In racing, rules are made to be broken !


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## Alec Swan (23 April 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. and wasnt Sprinter Sacre just wonderful again today.
		
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Goldenstar said:



			He was wow just wow nothing else you can say .
Like a racehorse from a dream .
		
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Indeed.  Such a horse.

Alec.


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## AdorableAlice (23 April 2016)

Mullins was fined 1K, which in the league the mares owners are in, is merely a round of drinks.


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## Mariposa (23 April 2016)

What a wonderful day's racing - Menorah, Sprinter Sacre and The Young Master - who finally paid back my faith in him by winning, I've had money on him in every race this season! 

I was pleased that Nicholls won the trainer, but even more delighted that Nicky Henderson got the Special award and that wonderful Thistlecrack won Horse of the Year. It might have been Nicholls and Mullins scrapping for the championship title, but I'll remember this season for Sprinter Sacre's come back ( as well My Tent) and Colin Tizzard's wonderful Cue Card and Thistlecrack.


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## Clodagh (23 April 2016)

And it was actually really good that they didn't win any of the major races! 
On the RPs page there are a lot of comments about the withdrawals, but one says that in harness racing if you withdraw a horse for no reason other than you are sulking (I paraphrase) you cannot then run it anywhere else for two weeks. Good call!


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## Dobiegirl (23 April 2016)

Im glad they didnt win all the big races, great to see Menorah win as well and Dickie Johnson his first champion jockeys title. For me the season has been sensational with the wins of Sprinter Sacre,Cue Card & Thistlecrack who sadly being lame isnt going to Punchestown.

Next season Coneygree will be back and the horse Im most looking forward to seeing is Ar mad of Gary Moores, I can now spend my Saturday afternoons in the garden.


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## splashgirl45 (23 April 2016)

it made my day to see sprinter sacre, he is a magnificent looking horse and it was a bonus that he  won so convincingly...and I also love menorah and as really pleased that he won as well.   well done to harry skelton for pulling up the grey horse before the first jump, I think they said he had fractured his pelvis, hopefully he ill recover to fight another day.


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## claracanter (24 April 2016)

A great end to the NH season. Sprinter Sacre is in a class of his own and has been the absolute highlight for me.


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## Honeylight (24 April 2016)

One of the rare days this season that I have watched the racing live, put a casserole in the slow cooker and my feet up!
Sprinter Sacre magnificent, I could hardly bear to watch the race!
As for the championship, how ridiculous that they want to win a paper prize so much they will play with horses like that. Imagine if there had been fatalities of these outstanding prospects? Actually Nicholls did lose Simon Squirrel on Friday.
In the end of course Mullins is just a servant to a rich and powerful man, I presume it was he that put pressure on him to withdraw Vroum Vroum Mag, (what a horrible name for a beautiful mare) when they was no chance of victory in the championship. As someone already said £1000 is nothing to the owner. He seems a ghastly man.


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## Clodagh (24 April 2016)

So sad about Simon Squirrel, I loved his name and therefore him. Is that where Sam T-D got his black eye and multi cloured face from?
I don't see that PN played with the horses on Saturday? Noone ran that wasn't capable from his yard although actually I do agree that Mullin's didn't do well, running the two that had horrible falls one or two weeks ago was a bit desperate.


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