# Cremello x Chestnut = Colour query



## stanley1234 (5 June 2008)

Cremello mare x Chestnut stallion = palomino we thought....but our mare had other ideas and landed down with a very mousy-coloured dun yesterday! Foal is healthy and that's the main thing - but realistically what cross do we need for palomino next time?


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## Daisychain (5 June 2008)

I thought that was guaranteed lol!


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## scotsmare (5 June 2008)

Early days for the foalie yet though - his coat may change.


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## amabelscott (5 June 2008)

palomino stallion??


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## stanley1234 (5 June 2008)

We thought a palomino was guranteed with a Cremello x Chestnut cross - is this other people's opinion too?


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## Daisychain (5 June 2008)

Yes it should be as the creme dilutes the chestnut to make a pally.


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## Willow1306 (5 June 2008)

I'm not 100% on this .... but could the Agouti gene be a factor? Although i think this is probably wrong as Perlino's carry the agouti gene? As i say , not 100% sure but thought i'd throw a suggestion in there...

I too did think that a Palo was guaranteed from that breeding though...


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## Nailed (5 June 2008)

Thts a load of rubbish, colours do not 'dilute' in genetics. If i was to cross two grays. nothing says the foal would be gray unless they were both homozygous grays.. To ensure a palimino go and have you mare covered by a homozygous palamino stallion and hope for the best.....

A chestnut and a cremello crossed coul throw a mulitude of colours dependant on the sire and dms own genetic make up...

Is colour really that important?


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## PrincessDana (5 June 2008)

I thought palomino was guarenteed with this cross??? Maybe foalies colour will change.

Opie should be able to shed more light on this


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## Damien (5 June 2008)

the mare wasn't cremello she is perlino....... only answer I can think of. Oops.........

Cremello on chestnut gaurantees palomino no other colour variation possible....

Perlino is also double dilute but he carries the black gene.....


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## Damien (5 June 2008)

To ensure a palimino go and have you mare covered by a homozygous palamino stallion and hope for the best.....

haven't heard that one before.........  
	
	
		
		
	


	





sadly you cant garantee palomino from your mare, sorry got a bit muddled....... she must carry the black factor....... 

But bucksin is lurvley too.............


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## Nailed (5 June 2008)

Homozygous is a commonly used erm in breeding....

Its the same as human genes and dog genes... 

Why is that the only colour variation.?

what if you end up with two horses who both have say a recessive bay allele and this alleles match up.. the horse woul be bay.

I also dont see why colour is so important.. care to spread some light?
Lou


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## brighteyes (5 June 2008)

Oh great, wrong colour.  We'll try again........... I am about to explode. Buy a bloody palomino and stop adding more to the market.  Poor mare, has to breed again just because you want a palomino


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## magic104 (5 June 2008)

Brighteyes we dont know the full circumstances, your reply is a wee bit harsh.  As for colour, why should people be slated for wanting a Palomino, does not mean they are not looking at the conformation of both horses.  If my daughter had her way we would never breed from Mo again &amp; if we did it would be to try for a Palomino.  That does not mean that we would not be looking carefully at the stallion.  And besides there is a good market for Palominos, sad but true.


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## _Samantha_ (5 June 2008)

Sorry I can't explain why but I was curious about the colour foal I will get next year so I searched and found a couple of websites that helped. I too was tempted to try and get a specific colour as I won't be selling the foal but in the end I decided performance was more important to me. Hope this helps.

http://www.doubledilute.com/color-chart.htm

http://www.horsetesting.com/CCalculator1.asp


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## Daisychain (5 June 2008)

I think people are being a bit sharp on here, what is wrong with wanting a Palomino, racehorse, eventer, showjumper etc... its horses for courses if you want to show a palomino its no good having a Dun is it?


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## _Samantha_ (5 June 2008)

We all breed with a desired outcome in mind whether it be to breed for dressage, show ring, allrounder etc. If colour is what you are breeding for then the links in my previous post should be somewhat helpful. 

I'm sure the dun is gorgeous though. Would love to see pics of the arrival!


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## Fahrenheit (6 June 2008)

I'm going to try and explain Palomino in as simple as terms as possible (not that I could explain it any other way  
	
	
		
		
	


	




) to clear up the different things that have been said on this thread  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Palomino is not a colour in it own right like chestnut etc... Palomino is only achieved when you cross two other colours, those being chestnut and cremello and crossing chestnut to cremello will always equal palomino of some shade (unless of course the cremello of the parentage isn't cremello like previously explained by Opie). Because Palomino is not a colour in its own right, you can not get a homozygous Palomino, every palomino carries the chestnut gene and the cremello gene and will not pass on a palomino gene onto its offspring, as a palomino gene does not exist, it will pass either a chestnut or cremello gene to its offspring so you would not be guaranteed a palomino if you crossed 2 palomino's you would also possibly get a chestnut or a cremello.  The way I understand it the shade of chestnut you use can influence the shade of palomino you get as well but as i'm not a genetics expert this is as far as I can explain it.... 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Ashbank is really good at genetics and could explain it better I am sure


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## ashbank (6 June 2008)

As the others have said above, the most probable situation is that the "cremello" was not a cremello, but was in fact a perlino or possibly a smokey cream.  To look at, they are very similar so you'd not necessarily be able to tell without having the tests done - or by seeing what colour the offspring are, as in this case.

A palomino is a chestnut horse with ONE copy of the Cr dilution gene.  A cremello is a chestnut horse with TWO copies of the gene - ie homozygous for the Cr gene.  This means that if you cross a cremello and a chestnut, you will geet a palomino foal guaranteed.

However, in this case, we have had a stray non chestnut added into the mix - which has given us a foal who is not chestnut, and therefore with the addition of the Cr gene, is not palomino.

You will NOT be able to guarantee a palomino foal from this double dilute horse - no matter what the colour of the other horse you put it to is.

Buckskins are lovely though - I have a smashing one myself this year (we knew he was going to be a buckskin - he's not bred for his colour, but I knew I was going to get that right from the conception).


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## zigzag (6 June 2008)

Ah that would explain why our cream mare never produced a palomino 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 she produced one was balck the other very dark brown, stallion was a chesnut, she looked a cream ..


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## volatis (6 June 2008)

zigzag, if your mare was definatly carrying two copies of cream then the first foal must have been smokey black and the second a very dark buckskin. 
It is possible your mare wasn't carrying any copies of the red gene, which is why you didnt get a palomino.

Ashbank explains the genetics very clearly. Cremello is simply chestnut plus 2 copies of cream, perlino is bay plus 2 copies of cream, and smokey black is black plus 2 copies of cream. This means a 'cream' horse will always pass on one copy of its cream gene to its offspring.


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## xspiralx (6 June 2008)

Quite.

If the cross is chestnut x cremello you will always get a palomino. The only explanation for the foal coming out buckskin [not dun] is if one parents is actually a perlino [bay with a double dilute] instead of cremello [chestnut with a double dilute.]


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## stanley1234 (6 June 2008)

Firstly, thanks everyone for your feedback. I really appreciate it. There's been a few questions asked so some additonal info:

- The mare is a blue eyed cream Connemara 5 year old. We bred her. A a BEC, she's not entitled to be 'truly' affilitated with the Connemara society and she's virtually worthless to other buyers - she might be bought by someone else for breeding purposes but realistically her future would be pretty poor if she missed a foaling year. She can't ever be ridden - her sight is very poor and we'd never ever sell anything on like this. But as we have a farm and she's an absolutely smashing sort, we put her in foal.
- Our first priority was a healthy foal, which she is. The second is that confirmation wise, she's straight and she is. Thirdly, we're concerned about colour because as breeders we do not risk bringing another animal into the world that may have poor sight. Consultations like this (and others we did previously) I think are indicative of responsible breeding. For example, we wouldn't even risk breeding her to a connemara stallion because the BEC pheonmeon is absolutely rife. 
- What we want to breed are really nice riding ponies and for this type of market, colour can sometimes matter. But above all else, we want a foal that will have healthy eyes. We're going to try her again because she's turning out to be a great mum (which is I think what she's meant to do). But next time, do you advise we go to a bay stallion?


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## xspiralx (6 June 2008)

Do you know what colour her parents were?

Going to a bay stallion won't give you a better chance at a palomino, you're more likely to get another buckskin.

Chestnut is the best shot you have at getting a pally, but even so I don't think people would be at all put off by a buckskin baby!


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## stanley1234 (6 June 2008)

Actually we're not that bothered about getting Palomino - It would have been nice and we thought we'd be in with a good chance of it this year but howandever. The main thing is healthy eyes. A proper dun would be great. 

Her parents were both greys.


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## SirenaXVI (6 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Actually we're not that bothered about getting Palomino - It would have been nice and we thought we'd be in with a good chance of it this year but howandever. The main thing is healthy eyes. A proper dun would be great. 

Her parents were both greys. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Although her parents were both grey, this is not a colour but a fading gene.  I would hazard a guess that they were both single dilute bays (buckskin - not dun, dun is a completely separate gene) which meant that each carried a creme gene and also the grey gene.  It would appear that neither passed on the greying gene to your mare which makes her a double dilute bay (perlino), if you put her to a bay you will get a buckskin, if you put her to a chestnut you would also more than likely get a buckskin, unless she carries the red (chestnut) gene, the bay (agouti) gene is dominant over the red gene which makes me think it unlikely that you would get a palomino.  Whoever said put her to a homozygous palomino is talking rubbish, palomino is a chestnut with one cream gene and not a colour as such.  If you do put her to a palomino any foal would be double dilute and either cremello or, more likely another perlino.

Phew, sorry - hope this makes sense.


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## flyingcolors (6 June 2008)

Cremello x Chestnut = 100% Palomino

Dun is not possible from the cream gene, only from the dun gene. The Cream on Bay is Buckskin, not Dun.

So that foal is probably Buckskin if the dam is a Perlino which is the only possibility that remains.


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## flyingcolors (6 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 If you do put her to a palomino any foal would be double dilute and either cremello or, more likely another perlino. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not correct. If you put a double dilute to a single dilute you get 50% double dilutes and 50% single dilutes.


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## SirenaXVI (6 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Thts a load of rubbish, colours do not 'dilute' in genetics. If i was to cross two grays. nothing says the foal would be gray unless they were both homozygous grays.. To ensure a palimino go and have you mare covered by a homozygous palamino stallion and hope for the best.....

A chestnut and a cremello crossed coul throw a mulitude of colours dependant on the sire and dms own genetic make up...

Is colour really that important? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but you obviously don't understand the creme gene, a chestnut and a cremello always throw a palomino - I could explain but I can't be bothered, suffice to say that colours DO dilute in genetics.


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## SirenaXVI (6 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
 If you do put her to a palomino any foal would be double dilute and either cremello or, more likely another perlino. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not correct. If you put a double dilute to a single dilute you get 50% double dilutes and 50% single dilutes. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, did not realise that, that is interesting, but does make sense.


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## ecs (6 June 2008)

only reason you could get a dun is because the mare is perlino as opie said, my friend has a "cremello" stallion, which threw a dun proving he was perlino, but alas he also threw grey, proving he is actually a grey with 2 dilute genes, because he is so pale to start with you could not tell he had greyed out


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## ecs (6 June 2008)

yes thats right buckskin, not dun but its hard to tell the difference, and most people would think it was dun, palomino to palomino, could produce a palomino if one parent threw a cream gene and one a chestnut gene, but equally you  could get a cream or in fact a chestnut


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## ecs (6 June 2008)

the connamara society actually recognize cremellos now, so your mare is eligable for the studbook


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## volatis (6 June 2008)

Chestnut is so rare in Connemaras that I would put plenty of money on your mare being perlino.
Do you feel her eyesight is linked to her colour? I have a cremello and a perlino and neither have anything wrong with their eyesight - they do have blue eyes and so wear fly masks in very bright sunlight as they are more sensitive, but their sight is fine.

A friend of mine has a cream Connemara who also carries grey. You cant tell by looking at her clearly, but her first foal (a smokey black) greyed out. Strong chance your mare carries grey, you just cant see it with the cream.


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## KarynK (6 June 2008)

The confusion arises as we in this country think that Buckskin is an Americanism for dun and it's not!  The dun is a completely separate dilute gene available in homozygous form without the crème effect.  (unless of course its  a cross a so called dunskin or dunmino)!!!
Ask the New Forest Pony Society as they didnt realise until presto pseudo albino's on the forest (taken last week)







This despite them having banned pale chestnut stallions (who they think are responsible!) and Palominos who are in their opinion highly responsible for "Blue eyed Creams" as everything else is dun!  (I have never seen a dun on the Forest!).  So now they have a load of buckskins, dark buckskins and black buckskins who are all capable of producing "creams", but "DUNS" sold really well last year!!!!!  Poor old palominos who have the same gene are banned from the breed altogether and if a nice colt is born pale chestnut its off with them oh dear!!!


Once again you really need to separate out the genes at work here to understand why a supposed cremello didn't give chestnut. 

Her base colour, having produced a buckskin to a chestnut you now know she has 1 E series gene (making her base coat black) and one A (bay) or At (brown) gene (changing her black base to bay or brown).  So her base colour is black but without the dilute she would be a bay or brown horse.  What you need to know is what her other E series gene is, that is easy if one of her parents was a palomino as she would have e (chestnut since chestnut can only be found with two little e genes ) but if she is from two buckskins then you would not know without testing her genetically since bay brown can carry chestnut (cost of test about £16).

Then you might want  to know what her other A series gene is, if one of her parents was a black buckskin then you know is a (no agouti) if not then it's a case of another test, but this does not affect chestnut so its probably not worth bothering about!

She has a double dose of the cream dilute so she can only produce dilutes, but she needs a little e gene if she is ever going to give you a palomino and to raise the odds and to get the best colour you need a cherry red chestnut without ticking in the coat or smut marks apparently the golden coin recipe!

Best estimate of her colour genes on info so far E and ? (black) A and ? (bay or brown) and two cream Cr Cr.


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## Zebedee (6 June 2008)

Quick way to tell the difference between buckskins &amp; duns.......buckskins don't have dorsal stripes.


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## KarynK (7 June 2008)

Ah that ones a bit of a myth some buckskins do,  sometimes have counter-shading that mimics a dorsal stripe, but it is wider, with fuzzy edges.  This is probably from the bay as some bays have dorsal stripes and therefore these can be inherited separately of dun.  Palomino will not have this.

The sure  identifiers for dun are the primitive markings striping (barring) on the legs, generally across the knees and hocks, a shoulder stripe or shadow across the withers, dark ear tips, shadowing on the neck, cobwebbing on the face, frosting in the mane and tail, and mottling. These will be the same color as the mane and tail .  Dunskins and Dunmino's can also have these and dorsal stripes.


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## SirenaXVI (7 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Ah that ones a bit of a myth some buckskins do,  sometimes have counter-shading that mimics a dorsal stripe, but it is wider, with fuzzy edges.  This is probably from the bay as some bays have dorsal stripes and therefore these can be inherited separately of dun.  Palomino will not have this.
The sure  identifiers for dun are the primitive markings striping (barring) on the legs, generally across the knees and hocks, a shoulder stripe or shadow across the withers, dark ear tips, shadowing on the neck, cobwebbing on the face, frosting in the mane and tail, and mottling. These will be the same color as the mane and tail .  Dunskins and Dunmino's can also have these and dorsal stripes. 

[/ QUOTE ]


Was just going to say that re the dorsal stripe.  Sirena was a chocolate dun at birth
and greyed out - this is a picture of her as a yearling and you can see the shading, she also had cobwebbing and bars, although you can't see them that clearly in this photo, interestingly once her black foal mane came out, her main and tail were blonde rather than grey:






My filly born yesterday is bay turning grey, but she does have darker patches on the shoulder and along her back which shows that these patches on a buckskin come from the bay gene.  Not sure how clear this is in the photo.


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## cruiseline (7 June 2008)

Slightly off topic here, but in reference to what KarynK has said.

Why in the UK is there a palomino society with palomino showing classes, but they do not recognise the Buckskin, it is the same gene that produces both colours, just on different base coats.

I have never understood this. Isn't that colour racist


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## SirenaXVI (7 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Slightly off topic here, but in reference to what KarynK has said.

Why in the UK is there a palomino society with palomino showing classes, but they do not recognise the Buckskin, it is the same gene that produces both colours, just on different base coats.

I have never understood this. Isn't that colour racist 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I think the reason is that in the UK people don't realise that there is a difference between a buckskin and a dun.  I seem to remember that there was once a Dun Horse Society so all the unrecognised Buckskins were classified as duns.  I had a couple of Connemaras as a kid, one was grey (have no idea what her true colour was) and the other 'dun', have recently found out (through HHO 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) that those 'dun' connemaras are, in fact buckskins and are recognised as such by the breed society.


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## stanley1234 (7 June 2008)

We do think that her eyesight is linked to her colour. Her own mother has since had other foals who were perfect (colour and sight wise).


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## KarynK (7 June 2008)

Poor old buckskins dip out!  Actually when I contacted them out of a bit of wicked curiosity the Palomino society didn't even really know how you bred them!!!  It's a bit silly really as they can never be a breed as you don't always get them, they would all be better off joining together under a cream society!

The cremello society are the most useful they know exactly what they have and what they can produce and have an excellent website with references!!!  

There are dunskins in the Fijord breed of duns, I forget what they are called and cant find my book!!!  Their dun colours are a bit different to other breeds.


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## flyingcolors (8 June 2008)

Dun x Buckskin = Dunskin
Dun x Palomino = Dunalino


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## KarynK (8 June 2008)

Sorry no I was thinking of the breed terms, which I  can never remember, wonder why?  but found it 

Brown (bay) dun  brunblak 90% are this colour!
Dark dun  -  mort brunblak
red dun  rødblakk 
Black (Grulla) dun  grå (they are all silvery in this breed)

The ones I was thinking of are the rare ones of  which are cream plus fjord dun plus base coat colour so Palomino and Buckskins.

Uls (White) dun  ulsblakk
Yellow dun  gulblakk
Interestingly the primitive markings are overridden when two cream genes are inherited with foals born with full coat color cream dilution, including blue eyes.  So it overrides the dun.


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## Amelia27 (13 June 2008)

I know this might sound like a strange question but what would happen if the mare in question (perlino) or a cremello mare were put to a true dun?

if the foal looked like a dun would it actually be a buckskin?

likewise if a buckskin was put to a true dun would you be able to get a true dun foal?

Sooooooooooooo confusing!!


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## Damien (13 June 2008)

not sure maybe karyn can confirm but think they are known as dunskin


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## Damien (13 June 2008)

double post oh well its already been answered........ so yes dunskin or dunalino..... same creamy colour but with dorsal strip and possibly leg barring......


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## htobago (15 June 2008)

Two questions for all the colour experts:

What do you get if you breed a chestnut to a dun?

And also, does the shade of a palomino at birth have any bearing on  what shade of palomino it will turn out? E.g. if the palomino foal is quite a dark shade at birth - looking almost chestnut rather than palomino - will the foal just lighten to become a normal palomino, or will it be a darker shade of palomino, or what?


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## Damien (15 June 2008)

a red dun? assuming dun is homozygous and always passed on..... don't know...

with regards to the palomino question, everything is variable.

Clients of ours had a very white palomino filly foal last year, she then went quite dark, almost dark chocolate, termed sooty palomino or sometimes smutty palomino....... her new owners tells me she is almost carmel in colour now with the darker liver chestnut points she had after her first shedding but still has her platinum mane and tail as opposed to cream. The dam was liver chestnut.

Mcjonnas filly 

this year we have seen a variety of colours from our clients mcjonnas babies, one was almost chestnut with chestnut mane tail and body almost all the same shade, he has since gotten lighter but his coat is still very golden.

One of our own very white palomino fillies is now coming in a dark gold around her eyes and muzzle, so there doesn't seem to be any real pattern.

Really looking forwards to seeing how they all end up, two other colts were also much creamier at borth whilst the two fillies were white and the elder of the two is still very white yet her legs and under side are very golden.

Chestnut is a funny colour anyway, and really seems to change from one year to the next, umenno's tail was always a rich fox red chestnut but its now dark liver...... 

and have seen so many bright chestnuts at three and four years of age end up very very dark as they got older.. whilst some remain the same...

I guess perhaps some of the palominos coat changes in the same way........

some lovely examples can be seen here:

http://www.norsirefarms.com/goldlocket.html

and here

http://www.norsirefarms.com/sales.html


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## cloppy (15 June 2008)

Kate. the palomino will go the colour of its legs.


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