# Tell me about show cockers



## Patchworkpony (30 December 2015)

I love spaniels. I love working spaniels but know that I am too long in the tooth to give one the active working life it needs. So the compromise is Cavaliers or show cockers. Cavaliers from reputable breeders round here means going on a year's waiting list and then as they say themselves there is still no guarantee of a healthy dog therefore the remaining choice is a show cocker. I have seen a smaller one locally but the majority I come across seem to be heavy coated dogs with thick limbs and overlong ears which is why I prefer the look of the lighter more agile looking working breed. My questions to the spaniel experts out there are:

Are all show cockers built on the heavy chunky side?

Are they as intelligent as the working breeds?

Do they take easily to being trained or are they stubborn?

My vet said they can be possessive and unpredictable is this true?

Is it best to keep them clipped as they have such thick coats?

Are they truly less active than the workers? 

Can you sometimes find a quiet working type that is content to flop? 

I would appreciate your honest input. Thank you.


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## Alec Swan (30 December 2015)

1.  Not sure,  but they appear to be.

2.  Define intelligent!  Being stubborn and intractable is often mistaken for being Thick.

3.  See 2!  The question 'Are they generally 'trainable' ' would come back with a general 'No'!

4.  Of the few that I've had any dealings with,  I'd say that your vet may well be right.

5.  I wouldn't know,  it would probably be dog-dependent.

6.  Generally,  yes.

7.  Most certainly you can,  and the best place to find one may be a rescue of an adult dog (12+ months),  then what you see is what you will get!

8.  You're welcome! 

I've never yet seen a show-bred Cocker that I would want.  They may exist,  it's just that I've yet to see one!

Alec.


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## {97702} (30 December 2015)

Patchworkpony said:



			I love spaniels. I love working spaniels but know that I am too long in the tooth to give one the active working life it needs. So the compromise is Cavaliers or show cockers. Cavaliers from reputable breeders round here means going on a year's waiting list and then as they say themselves there is still no guarantee of a healthy dog therefore the remaining choice is a show cocker. I have seen a smaller one locally but the majority I come across seem to be heavy coated dogs with thick limbs and overlong ears which is why I prefer the look of the lighter more agile looking working breed. My questions to the spaniel experts out there are:

Are all show cockers built on the heavy chunky side? 

No, they aren't

Are they as intelligent as the working breeds?

Do they take easily to being trained or are they stubborn?

Yes they do 

My vet said they can be possessive and unpredictable is this true?

Ignore what your vet says, any dog acts differently when it is being seen/treated by a vet! 

Is it best to keep them clipped as they have such thick coats?

Entirely your choice about how much of an easy life you would like 

Are they truly less active than the workers? 

Thankfully yes, still fun and playful but not hyperactive 

Can you sometimes find a quiet working type that is content to flop? 

I would appreciate your honest input. Thank you.
		
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I've answered what I can - my sister has a show cocker now, he is a sweetie who has a lot more about him than her 2 CKCS  I have a friend who has working cocker & I freely admit it would drive me mad to live with such manic dogs, they never seem to stop


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## Patchworkpony (30 December 2015)

You are the two 'experts' I was hoping for an opinion from. Thank you both.


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## BuzzyBea (30 December 2015)

I've had 2 show cockers over the years. Lost one 4 years ago and now have a nearly 12 year old. My brother has a working cocker of the same age so they have almost grown up together. Hopefully I can answer your questions helpfully!!

Are all show cockers built on the heavy chunky side? Our boy is very stocky but was very large born wheras our girl was much lighter set. She was solid but not heavy.

Are they as intelligent as the working breeds? Just as intelligent I would say just so much more laid back and chilled. 

Do they take easily to being trained or are they stubborn? Very food orientated so I have found them easy to train - only issue with both is selective hearing re-call wise. Never a major problem and no running off but prefer to snuffle in the undergrowth than come back sometimes!! My brother's girl is spot on with her re-call as is my dalmatian (suggesting it is the breed rather than the owner!!)

My vet said they can be possessive and unpredictable is this true? Found all of them very level temperament wise and very predictable!! All I would say is that they have their favourites ie my girl loved my OH more than anyone else but my boy is by my side every minute and doesn't really care for anyone else. On the other hand my brother's w/cocker is the same with him.

Is it best to keep them clipped as they have such thick coats? My girl had a thick curly coat which matted easily so I kept it short. My boy has a soft silky coat so he is able to keep his longer with a skirt. 

Are they truly less active than the workers? They are still very bouncy. My old boy has displaced hips but even now will jump with both feet off the floor when he is excited! I have found though that with a good off the lead run everyday that by the time they reach 3 they tend to sleep the rest of the time.

Can you sometimes find a quiet working type that is content to flop? I haven't met one!!! Maybe a show x working might give you the best of both worlds?

Good luck!!! I have to say that if it was my decision going from a working cocker for something quieter but still with some life about them I would always choose a Cocker over a Cav. Seems like a greater leap to be making IMO.


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## blackcob (30 December 2015)

My mum has one which I handle in the show ring so I've ended up spending more time than I'd anticipated around the little beggars.

Are all show cockers built on the heavy chunky side?

Bitches are smaller and finer but yes, they have more bone and are more 'sturdy' than most workers. Ears are long and getting longer, as are coats

Are they as intelligent as the working breeds?

In my limited experience, no - they tend towards being dippy and a bit fick. I am sure there are exceptions, there are a small number with working titles

Do they take easily to being trained or are they stubborn?

Despite not being the cleverest dog he's surprisingly trainable, much more so than my sibes - 'biddable' is the word I'd use

My vet said they can be possessive and unpredictable is this true?

There are various rumours/myths about 'rage syndrome', not sure of the truth of it. Mum's dog has a tendency to be possessive of her but is not bothered about toys etc. I would describe the majority I've met as sweet, loving, dippy little dogs, with perhaps a tendency towards being sensitive or clingy

Is it best to keep them clipped as they have such thick coats?

The full show coat requires daily maintenance and regular skilled stripping/trimming - it is a LOT of work and very impractical for a pet dog, it stays wet and gets full of crud very easily. Equally I do hate to see them clipped down to the wood, they look all naked and uncockery.  There's probably a balance to be had between the two but either way it involves regular grooming. Solid black dogs have the heaviest coats, goldens and partis are a bit easier to manage

Are they truly less active than the workers? 

They seem to take as much or as little exercise as you're able to give them, certainly ours can do a full day out with the sibes but is otherwise content on about an hour a day

Can you sometimes find a quiet working type that is content to flop?

Probably, there is huge variation in the breed. 

There are health issues to be aware of - eyes in particular are a concern.


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## luckyoldme (30 December 2015)

am i the only one who was opening this thread to post on how nice it is to come home to dinner ready in the slow cooker?


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## satinbaze (30 December 2015)

What about trying to find a show X working cocker. They sometimes come up on agilitynet.com as they can be great small agility dogs. A good amount of drive without being OTT


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## Patchworkpony (30 December 2015)

Thank you Blackcob and Buzzybea - SO helpful. I am very, very grateful for all this first hand info.


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## Patchworkpony (30 December 2015)

satinbaze said:



			What about trying to find a show X working cocker. They sometimes come up on agilitynet.com as they can be great small agility dogs. A good amount of drive without being OTT
		
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 That's a very good idea but have never seen any advertised locally.


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## Sandstone1 (30 December 2015)

luckyoldme said:



			am i the only one who was opening this thread to post on how nice it is to come home to dinner ready in the slow cooker?
		
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No, I did that. Really need to get some new glasses! Glad it's not just me.


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## Patchworkpony (30 December 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Most certainly you can


Alec.
		
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 You have give me hope. I would much rather have a working one but thought I was too old to give it what it needs. However I have spoken to our vet's head nurse who trains working spaniels as hearing dogs and she said they are keen to work, have less health problems than the show ones and provided they get plenty of mental stimulation they don't need to be walked for two hours a day. I have a paddock that is completely dog escape proof and it would be in there I could work it and train it to maybe do agility etc. There is a lovely dog friendly hotel on Dartmoor that has a gorgeous working spaniel who is very quiet and laid back. She was bred by a local gamekeeper from true working strain but I think she gets so much stimulation from guests and all the other dogs that it probably tires her out. She is beautifully behaved and very friendly. I had planned to kidnap her but she is just too loyal to her owner!


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## Alec Swan (30 December 2015)

luckyoldme said:



			am i the only one who was opening this thread to post on how nice it is to come home to dinner ready in the slow cooker?
		
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It took me a minute,  but no,  it seems that you aren't! 

You've brought a smile to a cold,  windy and miserable afternoon! Thanks! 

Alec.


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## Cinnamontoast (30 December 2015)

My older boy is a working lines springer. He's not mad, doesn't need hours of exercise and has been known to flag before me (in the days when we did epic walks). He is happy with half an hour running round the local big park. He then chills the rest of the day. 

The youngsters can be a pain until they've been out. Today, Zak had about 20 minutes of retrieves with a ball and a dummy and a little play with the rabbit skin ball. Then he stared at the fish for an hour then played football-on his own-for ten minutes. He will not need taking out again. They have a very firm routine, walk, which is normally training and keeps their brains busy, then that's it, really. In good weather, there's lots of water retrieves and longer walks in the woods. 

When it's time for more, we will go and get two workers, probably. I firmly believe it's getting them used to your routine. My three are currently asleep, one on my knee. Zak will want to play later, the others won't. As long as you get biddable types and the breeder can advise on their individual characters, I think you could go for working types. I chose the quiet one last time, superb dog.

Happy: 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Equally happy:


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## Patchworkpony (30 December 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			My older boy is a working lines springer. He's not mad, doesn't need hours of exercise and has been known to flag before me (in the days when we did epic walks). He is happy with half an hour running round the local big park. He then chills the rest of the day. 

The youngsters can be a pain until they've been out. Today, Zak had about 20 minutes of retrieves with a ball and a dummy and a little play with the rabbit skin ball. Then he stared at the fish for an hour then played football-on his own-for ten minutes. He will not need taking out again. They have a very firm routine, walk, which is normally training and keeps their brains busy, then that's it, really. In good weather, there's lots of water retrieves and longer walks in the woods. 

When it's time for more, we will go and get two workers, probably. I firmly believe it's getting them used to your routine. My three are currently asleep, one on my knee. Zak will want to play later, the others won't. As long as you get biddable types and the breeder can advise on their individual characters, I think you could go for working types. I chose the quiet one last time, superb dog.

Happy: 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Equally happy: 





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 I always follow your threads with great interest as you seem to talk such common sense. I felt very cheered by this post as I am in my sixties and didn't want to be unfair to a dog but the truth is I prefer the working breed any day. How did you manage to choose a quiet dog - could you tell when it was a puppy? What did you look for in the litter?


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## Clodagh (30 December 2015)

I only see spaniels in the shooting field but the cockers do seem more manic and springers easier and calmer, bearing in mind they are all very excited to start with, I am hardly assessing them impartially.


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## Cinnamontoast (30 December 2015)

Patchworkpony said:



			I always follow your threads with great interest as you seem to talk such common sense. I felt very cheered by this post as I am in my sixties and didn't want to be unfair to a dog but the truth is I prefer the working breed any day. How did you manage to choose a quiet dog - could you tell when it was a puppy? What did you look for in the litter?
		
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Thank you! Honestly, when I chose Bear, I picked up every boy and tried to cuddle the head into my collar bone and hold them there for a second. Bear and one other didn't object, so I looked at markings as a final decider. Bear had a better stripe and an all black nose. I think you can tell when ypu spend a bit of time with a litter, plus the breeder generally has a good idea of who's bold, who's not. 

For all he's a calm dog, he's not boring. He's a replica of the older one, weirdly, my kind of dog, up for hours tramping round the wood, training walks, swimming or cuddles. The pup we got for my bil last year is very similar. He was from this website, no doubt Alec can tell you more and he might recommend Will Cluelee who is a springer/cocker breeder in Shropshire, I believe. http://gundogsdirect.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewAds&catId=13

These two are up for re-homing together just to throw a spanner in the works: 
http://www.syessr.co.uk/index.php/forum/dogs-currently-in-our-care/664-luggs-buddy-dob-02-2008#4355


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## blackcob (30 December 2015)

Out of pure curiosity as I'm local I've just googled Will Cluelee and looked up the first stud dog listed on the website - 118 litters by a dog without any health tests, in a breed in which genetic diversity is rapidly vanishing, mostly due to the popular sire effect. It was enough of a minefield finding mum's dog, I had assumed it would be easier to find a sustainably bred working type, maybe I was wrong!


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## Suzie86 (30 December 2015)

I have a show cocker and boy and 2 working springer girls.

I absolutely love him - he's not been so easy to train as the springers though, and he is stubborn, but I imagine it's more through him being our first dog and knowing what we were doing better with the other two!

He does also need regular haircuts which the girls don't need, and he keeps the weight on far easier so eats much less. He loves a good walk but he is lazy as anything around the house and loves nothing better than curling up on your lap!

He's not possessive at all, great with other dogs and children, but nervous of strangers, men in particular for no reason we know of! The people he knows and loves though he absolutely adores


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## Suzie86 (30 December 2015)

And some pics....


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## Alec Swan (30 December 2015)

There's a great deal of misunderstanding and misleading information available,  it seems.  Never mind,  we can always bash away with knowledge derived from assumptions!  

The world of the Working Cocker,  has never before had such a diversity of 'blood',  the genetic lines are very well established,  and there is a massive gene pool from which dogs are sourced.  What's of interest and should be considered is that there are branches which appear now and then and from dogs which have won in trials,  and when they are introduced in to the national pool,  so they add yet more diversity.  

Where to start?  Here; Google Cocker Spaniel Database.  For those who,  and as I do,  find that they can become swamped with facts and figures,  the pedigrees of just about every working Cocker,  of any worth,  are listed.  Perhaps those with Working Cockers would like to research the parentage of their own dogs,  it can be illuminating.

Names do matter!  The Cocker of today,  all those which are succeeding come from a bitch line which has placed a stamp upon the modern dog;  Wernffrwd.  The bitch lines of just about every dog of worth will have Ci Twt,  Dai Bach,  Kathleen,  Silk and Mai and others featuring strongly,  and sometimes above and below at the same time!  Line breeding,  done with care,  is the reason why we're as we are,  and our Cockers are as healthy as they are.

None of those who would be considered to be from the top draw would consider themselves to be geneticists,  but men like Peter Jones (Maesydderwen) and perhaps the most focused of breeders,  Will Clullee (Poolgreen and his father before him,  Peter Clulee of Larford),  Timsgarry and Mallowdale,  have through a passion,  and perhaps unintentionally directed us to where we are today.

Another name for anyone who may wish to talk Cockers;  Darren Skidmore.  He bred the 2013-14 Cocker Championship winner Moel Famau Griffon and I believe the winning bitch from the previous year,  also run by Will Clullee.  Darren also trains to a very high standard and within 10 years will be leading the way,  I'm almost certain.  For those who would like to see some top class dogs,  google Moel Famau Cockers.  On that site you'll see a little bitch called Lily.  I wanted to buy her when she was 7 months,  but she wasn't for sale!  My word but she was and still is a delight.

The world of the Working Cocker is in a healthy position.  The gene pool is probably 10 times the size that it was 20 years ago,  and strangely perhaps,  I don't believe that any of those dogs which we see today have ever been health tested.  Most of those who breed from top class stock ignore the directions suggested by the Kennel Club,  and with good reason.  

Also,  to the best of my belief,  there isn't one of those breeders and trainers listed who has a dog with a tail which is intact!  Fad or fashion?  Possibly,  but more likely an understanding of a need.

There is in my view,  a problem looming and it concerns me,  but that can wait for another time.

Alec.


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## blackcob (30 December 2015)

On the contrary, the cocker spaniel gene pool is demonstrably shrinking. To be fair the same can be said for most pedigree dog breeds but cockers are among the more rapid and consistent; the effective population size is now less than 50 individuals. 

Moelfamau Lilly has an inbreeding coefficient of 17.7%. To put that in perspective a mating of first cousins is 6.25%, father/daughter results in 25%. This figure means little in isolation but is significant when looking at the population as a whole. These are the numbers where populations start to become unsustainable due to loss of genetic diversity and proliferation of genetic disease. 

Apologies to the OP for the derailment, I neither work nor breed cockers but have a growing interest in the health of pedigree dogs.


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## Alec Swan (30 December 2015)

blackcob said:



			On the contrary, the cocker spaniel gene pool is demonstrably shrinking. &#8230;&#8230;.. ; the effective population size is now less than 50 individuals. 

&#8230;&#8230;..
		
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Would you care to expand on that curious statement?  I have neither knowledge of nor interest in Show bred Cockers and am wondering how,  considering Working Cockers,  how you've decided that there is an effective population of less than 50 individuals,  or perhaps I've missed your point.  

Alec.


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## blackcob (30 December 2015)

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/686540/spaniel__cocker_.pdf

Link to the recent population analysis published by the Kennel Club. There's one for each breed if any other saddos like me are interested, it's one of the more useful things the KC has done recently (I know, too little too late, etc. )


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## Karran (30 December 2015)

This is my worker. I was a bit reluctant to take her on, being based in London and a fulltime job and having heard horror stories about other spaniels being impossible to tire out.

But i'm so glad I gave her a chance, I dont know if we got lucky or not as I dont have her papers but she's a pretty chilled character  (although with the odd moment!)
We do 90 minutes a day normally spread into 3 walks before and after work and she's quite happy with that. I also do a bit of trick training with her on the occasional day I can't make a walk and she comes to the yard 3x a week (in place of evening walks) and we recently started flyball training which she loves.
Her main issues is that she wants cuddles or tug games rather than a lot of walks but is quite happy to entertain herself if we're busy.

Been off for xmas so we have been upling the ante and doing 7-9 mile walks daily and she has been equally loving those so she can adapt although I think 90 mins is the minimum I can get away with to keep her happy.





Going... going....






Gone!

(Sorry - don't know how to change the rotation on my phone)


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## Cinnamontoast (30 December 2015)

blackcob said:



			Out of pure curiosity as I'm local I've just googled Will Cluelee and looked up the first stud dog listed on the website - 118 litters by a dog without any health tests, in a breed in which genetic diversity is rapidly vanishing, mostly due to the popular sire effect. It was enough of a minefield finding mum's dog, I had assumed it would be easier to find a sustainably bred working type, maybe I was wrong!
		
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Interestingly, I have heard that working dogs are far less likely to be health tested, which did put me right off the bil's pup at first (not a Cluelee litter, I enquire do, they were expecting a l/w lot, wrong colour, shoot me!) particularly as he has Chewky Wolf in his lines, as do hundreds of other springers. Interestingly, although there is one example of line breeding in his five generation pedigree, there are also Irish imported dogs in there, no doubt to encourage the gene diversity. I saw both parents and was given a demonstration of their obedience/retrieving. Impressive stuff! I'd go there for my next two. 

 Thing is, people who work them wouldn't breed from them if they were showing issues down the years.

The wee pup (we kept him for the first few weeks til the bil was ready)


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## Alec Swan (31 December 2015)

blackcob said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Moelfamau Lilly has an inbreeding coefficient of 17.7%. To put that in perspective a mating of first cousins is 6.25%, father/daughter results in 25%. This figure means little in isolation but is significant when looking at the population as a whole. These are the numbers where populations start to become unsustainable due to loss of genetic diversity and proliferation of genetic disease. 

&#8230;&#8230;... 

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Most of the line-bred working Cockers of today have an iBC in excess of (say) 17%,  certainly all of mine have.  It's a generally held view (certainly amongst Cocker breeders),  that the system of researching an in-breeding coefficient and the results are an irrelevance.  I have no idea how the iBC figures are arrived at,  but considering the bitch Lily,  there is no direct cousin lineage that I can see and yet she steps far beyond your figure of 6.25%.

The principles of line-breeding,  from my understanding,  are that the dog to be produced will have the grandsire on the sire side as the same dog as the great grandsire on the dam side.  It isn't something which I truly understand,  to be honest,  and equally I'm not sure that it always works!  Lily's G/Sire on her sire's side,  Argyll Warrior is also her G-G/Sire on her dam's side.  Argyll Warrior still lives and was still covering two years ago,  but I used is son MF Griffon.



blackcob said:



http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/686540/spaniel__cocker_.pdf

Link to the recent population analysis published by the Kennel Club. There's one for each breed if any other saddos like me are interested, it's one of the more useful things the KC has done recently (I know, too little too late, etc. )
		
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Statistics?  Whilst I'm prepared to believe that they may have their place,  relying upon them is a mistake.  When faced with the fact that the realities fly in the face of the theories,  then their efficacy must be in serious doubt.  I put this point to a lady from the KC and asked why,  if the dogs being bred today were as successful as they are,  what was the use of the figures when the evidence which is physical,  contradicts the theory and she said that she didn't know!

An interest in the statistics of breeding isn't 'sad' at all,  but I believe it to be a retrograde step to rely upon figures alone and ignore what's clearly visible.  Just as our modern Thoroughbred racehorses originate from 5 stallions,  so the modern Cocker and in modern times researches that the Wernffrwd bitches previously mentioned,  appear in perhaps 90%(?) of our modern day breeding.  Similarly,  the Gwibernant dogs remain an influence,  though whether they share the same breeding as the Wernffrwd dogs,  I'm not sure.  

It was a far smaller gene pool 20 years ago than we have today,  and many of the top-flight dogs of today,  if the truth be known,  have pedigrees which are fraudulent,  with both Setters and ESS being used in an attempt to improve on the stamina levels of our modern Cocker which is another reason to doubt 'statistics'.

Alec.


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## Patchworkpony (31 December 2015)

Wow - I love this forum. So many intelligent people with so many different opinions. Just for the record my world is native ponies and sadly 'line' breeding has done for so many original breed traits. I challenge, for instance, anyone to take one of the modern long pastern, boxy feet, over-excitable welsh cobs from the show ring and ride it over rough mountain tracks (peppered with bogs) in torrential rain, with a sick lamb balanced on the front of the saddle and get to the other side safely and calmly. AND this can be said of most of our native breeds who are all beset with behaviour problems and laminitis.


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## Alec Swan (31 December 2015)

The problem Pwp,  is that as all of our 'breeds'  regardless of type,  have previously evolved,  but for the last 50+(?) years they've stagnated,  with standards being set which fail to take in to account,  the vital word 'Type'.  Consider the Scottish Deerhound,  for instance;  With a minuscule and ever diminishing gene pool,  so the dogs themselves are nothing short of being pathetic representatives of those of perhaps 100 years ago.  Would the Deerhound benefit from an infusion of Greyhound,  and then when a bit of 'foreign' blood's been introduced,  carefully select those puppies which will assist with the maintenance of a standard,  so as a Breed it will progress?  I think that it's the only way forward for any animal which is to be considered as a breed.  It would be a move which would be rejected out of hand by most canine Breed Societies AND the KC,  but if the focus is maintained whereby only the accepted is acceptable,  then the decline will accelerate.  The same applies to Welsh Cobs and just about every breed of horse,  except perhaps for the Irish Draft,  when to my relief,  I see the odd inclusion of TB.

All our Breeds need to continue to evolve,  and though mistakes will have been made,  the Cocker,  seems to me anyway,  to be in good heart!

Alec.


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## Patchworkpony (31 December 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			The problem Pwp,  is that as all of our 'breeds'  regardless of type,  have previously evolved,  but for the last 50+(?) years they've stagnated,  with standards being set which fail to take in to account,  the vital word 'Type'.  Consider the Scottish Deerhound,  for instance;  With a minuscule and ever diminishing gene pool,  so the dogs themselves are nothing short of being pathetic representatives of those of perhaps 100 years ago.  Would the Deerhound benefit from an infusion of Greyhound,  and then when a bit of 'foreign' blood's been introduced,  carefully select those puppies which will assist with the maintenance of a standard,  so as a Breed it will progress?  I think that it's the only way forward for any animal which is to be considered as a breed.  It would be a move which would be rejected out of hand by most canine Breed Societies AND the KC,  but if the focus is maintained whereby only the accepted is acceptable,  then the decline will accelerate.  The same applies to Welsh Cobs and just about every breed of horse,  except perhaps for the Irish Draft,  when to my relief,  I see the odd inclusion of TB.

All our Breeds need to continue to evolve,  and though mistakes will have been made,  the Cocker,  seems to me anyway,  to be in good heart!

Alec.
		
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 Alec you are an intelligent, educated and forward thinking representative of dogs, working animals and the British countryside but sadly I have to say you are in the minority. So many 'new' country dwellers and dog owners just want the trappings with none of the real responsibility - you only have to look at the numbers of badly kept horses and out of control dogs to come to that conclusion. While there are people who simply want a pedigree dog and ignore how it came to be bred in the first place and are ignorant about the strong possibility of inherent health problems poor quality and interbred dogs will continue to be in the market - exactly the same as in the pony world.


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## blackcob (31 December 2015)

I fully accept the limits of things like COI - to use Alec's example, it would appear on paper that deerhounds are far more genetically diverse and in more robust health than cockers, which we both know to not be the whole picture. However, it would be foolish to completely disregard it as a tool. Consistent loss of genetic diversity is a ticking time bomb for a breed and 17% is unsustainable - these are the levels in which proliferation of genetic disease occurs and inbreeding depression rears its head. For two apparently unrelated dogs to only have enough genetic material between them to result in almost the equivalent of a father/daughter mating is alarming for the future of the breed.

To use CT's examples the use of imported dogs is surely very important but unfortunately demonstrates one of the limitations of COI; very often fewer generations are used when calculating for imported dogs which can result in an artificially lowered figure - go back another generation or two and more related dogs appear. 

I also concede the point that no-one would be breeding like this if the dogs weren't outwardly healthy and successful, and I've no doubt that the vast majority are! The risk comes from things diagnosed later in life, PRA and DCM come to mind for cockers, the latter with an average age at diagnosis of something like 7. A popular sire will have several hundred offspring on the ground by then and it's too late. IIRC similar has happened in other breeds, haemophilia in GSDs is a case in point (I am ready to be corrected by the GSD mafia! )

Those breeding for the show ring take a lot of flack for their breeding practices (and rightly so in a lot of cases, thinking of the physical exaggerations that have proliferated purely as a result of what is being rewarded in the ring, and loss of working ability) but in this instance they appear to be taking a far more long term approach to the genetic health of the breed.


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## Cinnamontoast (31 December 2015)

I agree, breeds need to evolve. Springers are the third most numerous registered breed in the country, labs being first, I believe. An infusion of foreign blood is desperately needed, be it Irish or further afield. Trouble is, the purists (stick in the mud people who refuse to acknowledge the benefit) won't have it. Look at the lady who added foreign blood to the Dalmatian lines to attempt to remove the purine issue: her line is still not recognised, although it may be the saving of the breed in future years. 

I do get cross at the 'designer' cross breed thing, but to save the breed, we need to drastically re-think the purist way, without breeding the designer types for money. 

So patchworkpony, what are your current thoughts on breed and type? I'm lame as heck still, but I've managed two dog walks with some very lively springers this morning, although I have no idea how I'm supposed to get the vacuum downstairs and clipping the cob will have to wait!


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## Patchworkpony (31 December 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			So patchworkpony, what are your current thoughts on breed and type?
		
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 To be honest a bit confused and sad that there are so many man-made problems in dogs now. In my youth you could get a good old mongrel or cross breed for next to nothing and most lived to a ripe old age. It seems now that every breed is beset with health problems of some kind which is why everyone needs insurance these days. My vet said that most of the working cockers only come in for their annual injection so maybe Alec's got a point. 

I must say though that all these breeding lines points are way over my head. All I want is a nice spaniel to love, work and have some fun with. I've been talking to someone who knows all the working spaniel breeders in our area and thinks she may be able to find me something fairly grounded. What exactly do you do with your boys in the way of work? Do you do field trials? I would love to go and watch some - used to go years as I was going to compete with my springer but then hunting and a busy showing schedule got in the way. I think you may have put a video up on here of working two dogs together - would love the link. What part of the country are you based in?


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## Cinnamontoast (31 December 2015)

My lot don't work, they are trained as if they work and the naughty one in particular has been trained to search for items up a height and for scent. We do a lot of water retrieves. They're a bit of a tag team, probably very frowned upon! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





We're in Hertfordshire and have a good friend who is a gun dog trainer. We are in a gun dog group, but I don't have time to work my lot. 

I think you should get a worker, I'm sure it would be fine and you have to go with your heart. As long as you can get out and about, then why not? There are a pair of spanners locally who walk beautifully, attached to their owner's electric wheelchair.

That video, which I posted on your thread about Cockers being madder than springers: http://youtu.be/pZR2l_IQmlI

I told the OH he should pretend to use the Force when training, they go to hand signals, voice, anything!


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## Patchworkpony (31 December 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			My lot don't work, they are trained as if they work and the naughty one in particular has been trained to search for items up a height and for scent. We do a lot of water retrieves. They're a bit of a tag team, probably very frowned upon! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





We're in Hertfordshire and have a good friend who is a gun dog trainer. We are in a gun dog group, but I don't have time to work my lot. 

I think you should get a worker, I'm sure it would be fine and you have to go with your heart. As long as you can get out and about, then why not? There are a pair of spanners locally who walk beautifully, attached to their owner's electric wheelchair.

That video, which I posted on your thread about Cockers being madder than springers: http://youtu.be/pZR2l_IQmlI

I told the OH he should pretend to use the Force when training, they go to hand signals, voice, anything!
		
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 Thank you SO much I am going to go with my heart and get a working spaniel. Toy breeds do nothing for me I'm afraid as I like proper country dogs with a purpose. Your encouragement has been wonderful and has meant a great deal. I'd convinced myself that I was too old but I now know if I get this kind of dog I would give it the love and commitment it needs and it certainly won't be left locked up all day like so many dogs. I spoke to a local breeder tonight and she said they are really loyal little dogs that just want to please and I do love training. My beloved fell pony breed is a bit beyond me now but I think a cocker is probably a bit like a fell. My fell mare was loyal, loving, intelligent, quick to learn but always busy and terribly impatient so I guess a spaniel won't be too much different. Have a very Happy New Year!


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## alainax (31 December 2015)

From my very limited experience, the working cockers are fabulous dogs. I also took a look at the show cocker spaniels, but didn't like they way they looked. 

I have never met a breed so easy and willing to learn and work. Our girl is a pet, and amazes our friends with her obedience and happy disposition. We have had offers from a local man who uses them whilst shooting to buy her, and threats from friends to steal her! Don't get me wrong, she had her moments - with our house cats in particular, however that was a matter of novice trainers more than anything!  We have a young family, and she is very gentle and loving. Although she is energetic, there is never a time where you feel overwhelmed by her - a simple command and she is all ears!  








She wouldn't dare take this toy from the baby even as he flapped it around, until she was told it was ok.


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## Alec Swan (31 December 2015)

alainax,  a smart little dog,  eye contact too,  that's what's wanted!

Your bottom pic;  if I wriggle my cursor up and down,  your baby's feet go up and down too!  Excellent! 

Alec.


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## Patchworkpony (1 January 2016)

alainax said:



			From my very limited experience, the working cockers are fabulous dogs. I also took a look at the show cocker spaniels, but didn't like they way they looked. 

I have never met a breed so easy and willing to learn and work. Our girl is a pet, and amazes our friends with her obedience and happy disposition. We have had offers from a local man who uses them whilst shooting to buy her, and threats from friends to steal her! Don't get me wrong, she had her moments - with our house cats in particular, however that was a matter of novice trainers more than anything!  We have a young family, and she is very gentle and loving. Although she is energetic, there is never a time where you feel overwhelmed by her - a simple command and she is all ears!  








She wouldn't dare take this toy from the baby even as he flapped it around, until she was told it was ok. 





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 What a totally gorgeous little dog - you must be so proud of her.


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## Cinnamontoast (1 January 2016)

Patchworkpony said:



			Thank you SO much I am going to go with my heart and get a working spaniel. Toy breeds do nothing for me I'm afraid as I like proper country dogs with a purpose. Your encouragement has been wonderful and has meant a great deal. I'd convinced myself that I was too old but I now know if I get this kind of dog I would give it the love and commitment it needs and it certainly won't be left locked up all day like so many dogs. I spoke to a local breeder tonight and she said they are really loyal little dogs that just want to please and I do love training. My beloved fell pony breed is a bit beyond me now but I think a cocker is probably a bit like a fell. My fell mare was loyal, loving, intelligent, quick to learn but always busy and terribly impatient so I guess a spaniel won't be too much different. Have a very Happy New Year!
		
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Excellent! Handy to have a local breeder. When are pups due?


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## Patchworkpony (1 January 2016)

cinnamontoast said:



			Excellent! Handy to have a local breeder. When are pups due?
		
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 Not until a lot later this year but we have just been out to lunch at the Dartmoor hotel with the little working cocker I adore and the owner has given me the name of another local breeder. It is SO delightful this spaniel - it's quiet, very obedient, exceedingly gentle, very intelligent and at no time does it ever smell. My dream dog! The owner is thinking of putting it in pup but not until much later this year - not sure I can wait that long.


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## Patchworkpony (2 January 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			There is in my view,  a problem looming and it concerns me,  but that can wait for another time.

Alec.
		
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 Alec I just HAVE to know what this looming problem is. Sorry but I really don't think you can say that and then leave us all on the edge of our seats!  Also you said 'I don't believe that any of those dogs which we see today have ever been health tested. Most of those who breed from top class stock ignore the directions suggested by the Kennel Club, and with good reason'.  

Lots of people round here advertise home bred working pups from their working spaniel and they certainly never have DNA tests etc. done - so is it risky buying these pups even if the parents are healthy or should you only ever buy from accredited breeders who always have a waiting list. AND because these breeders have usually docked the tails they say they can only sell to people who are going to use them in the shooting field, so if you just want a pet (which will still be worked but in perhaps agility) they say that they are obliged to sell to working homes first. Minefield or what!


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## Alec Swan (3 January 2016)

For those who breed and train dogs commercially,  and who are generally the most successful,  their work is a serious business.  With the limited number of whelpings that a bitch is correctly permitted and to have registered,  is it 5 or 6 litters in her lifetime?  something like that,  a bitch through her life may produce about 35 pups.  Consider the dog which BlackCob referred to who had in excess of 100 coverings in a year,  then the revenue to be derived from a Dog in a lifetime may earn his owner £200++k,  whereas an equally successful Bitch may show a return of about £20-30k at best.

The economics of training a Dog and a Bitch simply have no comparison.  Why bother to campaign a Bitch and win the Championship with her,  when a Dog will show a financial return of probably 10 times that amount.  By breeding from the dogs which achieve the status of a Field Trial Champion (FtCh) so we set the benchmark of dogs which are trainable,  capable and suitable.  That's how and why working gundogs are judged and bred.  

Currently,  we're still reliant upon the Dam-lines of 20 years ago.  There are very few dam-lines which would have the bitches judged upon their merits,  and which are replacing those which were previously available.  In another 20 years there will be no dam-lines which are worth bothering ourselves with,  we're already reliant upon 3 or 4 generations back and that is where the problem lays.  The Irish will tell us that "It's all in the mammy",  and they're right and the 'mammies' (the dam-lines) are being neglected.

Those few bitches which do reach the top are commanding pup-prices of between £1500 and £2000 each,  but then generally only for the first litter.  If those first pups born don't succeed,  then despite her own achievements she'll be relegated to the ranks of an also-ran, with pups being sold for £5-600.  The risks attached to campaigning Bitches are too great,  and it's simply the economics.

Alec.


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## Patchworkpony (3 January 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			For those who breed and train dogs commercially,  and who are generally the most successful,  their work is a serious business.  With the limited number of whelpings that a bitch is correctly permitted and to have registered,  is it 5 or 6 litters in her lifetime?  something like that,  a bitch through her life may produce about 35 pups.  Consider the dog which BlackCob referred to who had in excess of 100 coverings in a year,  then the revenue to be derived from a Dog in a lifetime may earn his owner £200++k,  whereas an equally successful Bitch may show a return of about £20-30k at best.

The economics of training a Dog and a Bitch simply have no comparison.  Why bother to campaign a Bitch and win the Championship with her,  when a Dog will show a financial return of probably 10 times that amount.  By breeding from the dogs which achieve the status of a Field Trial Champion (FtCh) so we set the benchmark of dogs which are trainable,  capable and suitable.  That's how and why working gundogs are judged and bred.  

Currently,  we're still reliant upon the Dam-lines of 20 years ago.  There are very few dam-lines which would have the bitches judged upon their merits,  and which are replacing those which were previously available.  In another 20 years there will be no dam-lines which are worth bothering ourselves with,  we're already reliant upon 3 or 4 generations back and that is where the problem lays.  The Irish will tell us that "It's all in the mammy",  and they're right and the 'mammies' (the dam-lines) are being neglected.

Those few bitches which do reach the top are commanding pup-prices of between £1500 and £2000 each,  but then generally only for the first litter.  If those first pups born don't succeed,  then despite her own achievements she'll be relegated to the ranks of an also-ran, with pups being sold for £5-600.  The risks attached to campaigning Bitches are too great,  and it's simply the economics.

Alec.
		
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 Thank you for answering my question so fully. A most interesting and erudite answer. I wonder how many other spaniel breeders have given the problem this much thought? It is very worrying when you strip it all down to simple basic economics - this why one struggles to find a decent healthy dog and ditto a decent native pony.


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## H_A_C (3 January 2016)

If you ignore the very minor recall problem I'm having currently  (I'm putting it down to adolescence), I was in the same dilemma as you I had a good friend about to have her 2nd litter and was completely torn. With some people saying they were mental others saying they are a production of there upbringing. 

I can safely say Beau is lovely the most affectionate dog I've ever met, he accepts everything learns so quickly, and comes for cuddles every morning in bed. 

He is 7 months doesn't need masses of walking  (not that I would at his age) he has started puppy agility and today done sent work all with gusto.


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## Alec Swan (3 January 2016)

The answer to the question of whether to concentrate on Dogs or Bitches could be solved by having single sex Championships whereby the Bitches are allowed their own Championship Trials,  rather as it is in horse racing,  and so the Dam-lines would be maintained,  strengthened and be of worth.  I can't see it happening somehow!

Alec.


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## {97702} (3 January 2016)

Patchworkpony said:



			Thank you for answering my question so fully. A most interesting and erudite answer. I wonder how many other spaniel breeders have given the problem this much thought? It is very worrying when you strip it all down to simple basic economics - this why one struggles to find a decent healthy dog and ditto a decent native pony.
		
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No, this isn't why Patchworkpony - luckily for the vast majority of breeders it is not all about economics, it is about producing an excellent specimen of the breed to carry on their line not about whether they can make money from what they do!   If someone is looking at it purely from economics they most certainly should not be breeding, as they clearly do not have the interests of any breed - whether equine or canine - at heart.  In my personal opinion you can 'overthink' a situation a little too much, and whilst it is extremely important to go to a reputable breeder who health tests their stock you cannot guarantee any animal will be free from illness or injury, whether inherited or not, unless you resort to a stuffed toy from a shop


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## Patchworkpony (3 January 2016)

H_A_C said:



			If you ignore the very minor recall problem I'm having currently  (I'm putting it down to adolescence), I was in the same dilemma as you I had a good friend about to have her 2nd litter and was completely torn. With some people saying they were mental others saying they are a production of there upbringing. 

I can safely say Beau is lovely the most affectionate dog I've ever met, he accepts everything learns so quickly, and comes for cuddles every morning in bed. 

He is 7 months doesn't need masses of walking  (not that I would at his age) he has started puppy agility and today done sent work all with gusto.
		
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 Thanks for that - very reassuring. I am probably going to wait until spring so I can do my homework on breeders etc. Confusing as to where to go! Please put up a pic of your little man, he sounds SO adorable.


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## Patchworkpony (3 January 2016)

Lévrier;13131386 said:
			
		


			In my personal opinion you can 'overthink' a situation a little too much, and whilst it is extremely important to go to a reputable breeder who health tests their stock you cannot guarantee any animal will be free from illness or injury, whether inherited or not, unless you resort to a stuffed toy from a shop
		
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 As I told Alec most of the reputable breeders round here sell pups with docked tails so favour shooting homes in the main. Only if they have puppies left over will they consider a pet home - very difficult unless you lie and say you are going to use the dog on proper live shoots. So does one then go to an amateur breeder who doesn't do health checks but equally doesn't stipulate the dog has to go shooting-  as of course it has a full tail. 'There's a hole in my bucket....'


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## hairycob (3 January 2016)

We have a 3yo working cocker who I suspect may have helped H_A_C in making her decision after she babysat him. He is lively but is happy burning off a lot of his energy in the garden. He loves people and would do anything for a tennis ball. He loves his flyball & is a great favourite at the nursing home when OH visits his mum.


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## {97702} (3 January 2016)

Patchworkpony said:



			As I told Alec most of the reputable breeders round here sell pups with docked tails so favour shooting homes in the main. Only if they have puppies left over will they consider a pet home - very difficult unless you lie and say you are going to use the dog on proper live shoots. So does one then go to an amateur breeder who doesn't do health checks but equally doesn't stipulate the dog has to go shooting-  as of course it has a full tail. 'There's a hole in my bucket....'
		
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In your position I would have gone for a CKCS - based on my experiences of 34 years of the breed, knowing many hundreds of them who have been repeatedly health, fit, active dogs living on average to around 14 years old age, in apparent defiance of all the horror stories you see perpetuated about them


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## Patchworkpony (3 January 2016)

Lévrier;13131422 said:
			
		


			In your position I would have gone for a CKCS - based on my experiences of 34 years of the breed, knowing many hundreds of them who have been repeatedly health, fit, active dogs living on average to around 14 years old age, in apparent defiance of all the horror stories you see perpetuated about them 

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 No breeders round here - seem to have moved or given up. I won't travel miles now to look at animals as I spent too many years doing that finding horses.


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## {97702} (3 January 2016)

Patchworkpony said:



			No breeders round here - seem to have moved or given up. I won't travel miles now to look at animals as I spent too many years doing that finding horses.
		
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And unfortunately therein lies your problem - the likelihood of finding exactly what you want on your doorstep is slim to non-existent, so in my experience in the end people either 'make do' with another breed or 'make do' with going to a breeder who doesn't exactly meet their requirements.


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## blackcob (3 January 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			The answer to the question of whether to concentrate on Dogs or Bitches could be solved by having single sex Championships whereby the Bitches are allowed their own Championship Trials,  rather as it is in horse racing,  and so the Dam-lines would be maintained,  strengthened and be of worth.  I can't see it happening somehow!

Alec.
		
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This is perhaps the difference with the show cockers then, as there's as many tickets for bitches as for dogs. Entry numbers for bitches are consistently higher than those for dogs. And though I don't doubt that some show breeders are making big money it's less about economics and more about achieving the big wins and titles, IMO. Even the most popular and successful show cocker sires only seem to be used for 20-25 litters. 

I'm in agreement with Lévrier on the travelling point, though perhaps not to the extremes of a good friend of mine who is going to Sweden for the second time to fetch another puppy. What she wants isn't available in the UK so she's driving for seven days straight to the arctic circle to fetch it.  

(And yes she offered to bring one back for me, I'm hopping mad I'm not allowed one yet...)


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## Cinnamontoast (3 January 2016)

There's a springer breeder on the Isle of Skye who suggested I come to get my bil a pup. She has people from Europe go to her. She has a litter on the ground now. I would travel, but not that far, although we went to Herdord to ensure we got the right size/type of springer for our first two. It's definitely worth travelling.


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## {97702} (3 January 2016)

blackcob said:



			This is perhaps the difference with the show cockers then, as there's as many tickets for bitches as for dogs. Entry numbers for bitches are consistently higher than those for dogs. And though I don't doubt that some show breeders are making big money it's less about economics and more about achieving the big wins and titles, IMO. Even the most popular and successful show cocker sires only seem to be used for 20-25 litters. 

I'm in agreement with Lévrier on the travelling point, though perhaps not to the extremes of a good friend of mine who is going to Sweden for the second time to fetch another puppy. What she wants isn't available in the UK so she's driving for seven days straight to the arctic circle to fetch it.  

(And yes she offered to bring one back for me, I'm hopping mad I'm not allowed one yet...)
		
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That's quite standard in my experience - my mum has exported to Finland, Denmark, Sweden, America, France etc etc to people who want to get the right dog.  As she won't allow the puppy (not tiny puppy obviously, a teenager!) to travel in the hold the prospective owners will fly over, and fly back with the dog on their knee


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## H_A_C (3 January 2016)

These are my 2 together, he was approximately 6 months when this was taken! 






[/URL]

Christmas Jumper 






[/URL]

Snuggle tunnel he loves this!!!






[/URL]


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## Patchworkpony (3 January 2016)

H_A_C said:



			These are my 2 together, he was approximately 6 months when this was taken! 






[/URL]
		
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Gorgeous - my favourite colour.


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## H_A_C (3 January 2016)

I've added another couple of pics. I love black dogs. Having a debate with myself about castration as he is no problem doesn't mark, didn't notice a bitch on heat last week. ........ not sure if I want to put him through surgery for no reason


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## blackcob (3 January 2016)

Lévrier;13131560 said:
			
		


			fly back with the dog on their knee 

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Fine with a CKCS, bit of an ask with a land shark 16 week old sibe puppy.  

Two of Roscoe's relations have gone to Australia in the last year, that must be a big undertaking, but necessary for the continued health of the breed. Certainly the dogs nutty friend is bringing over are completely unrelated to anything currently in the UK, from proven working stock, and oh god I neeeeeed one it's not fair.


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## {97702} (3 January 2016)

blackcob said:



			Fine with a CKCS, bit of an ask with a land shark 16 week old sibe puppy.  

Two of Roscoe's relations have gone to Australia in the last year, that must be a big undertaking, but necessary for the continued health of the breed. Certainly the dogs nutty friend is bringing over are completely unrelated to anything currently in the UK, from proven working stock, and oh god I neeeeeed one it's not fair. 

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Go on, go on, have one have one HAVE ONE


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## blackcob (3 January 2016)

I can't yet, for various boring and complicated reasons, mostly centred around not owning our own house.  

I'm sure I will be having first pick of this lot's offspring, having proven themselves on the UK racing scene. 

I've managed to go the whole thread without posting a picture, little dude and his bodyguards:


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## {97702} (3 January 2016)

blackcob said:



			I can't yet, for various boring and complicated reasons, mostly centred around not owning our own house.  

I'm sure I will be having first pick of this lot's offspring, having proven themselves on the UK racing scene. 

I've managed to go the whole thread without posting a picture, little dude and his bodyguards: 






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Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww       Sooooo cute


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## dingle12 (3 January 2016)

I know of two show cockers both had issues one only been Pts aged 4 about a month ago due to aggression for no reason. Had a lot of work put into him.

I know of workers and they are much nicer dogs.


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## Thistle (3 January 2016)

H_A_C said:



			I've added another couple of pics. I love black dogs. Having a debate with myself about castration as he is no problem doesn't mark, didn't notice a bitch on heat last week. ........ not sure if I want to put him through surgery for no reason
		
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If you are considering castration then wait until he is at least 18 months to allow growth plates to close.


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## Patchworkpony (4 January 2016)

H_A_C said:



			These are my 2 together, he was approximately 6 months when this was taken! 






[/URL]

Christmas Jumper 






[/URL]

Snuggle tunnel he loves this!!!






[/URL]
		
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 Thank you for the extra photos. I love the one of him in the snuggle hood!


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## alainax (4 January 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			alainax,  a smart little dog,  eye contact too,  that's what's wanted!

Your bottom pic;  if I wriggle my cursor up and down,  your baby's feet go up and down too!  Excellent! 

Alec.
		
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Thank you 

Lol @ the feet, now you have me doing it  


Patchworkpony said:



			What a totally gorgeous little dog - you must be so proud of her.
		
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Thank you, she is a fab girl.


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