# kickers



## BethanT (12 March 2013)

OK, so after much debate about which bit to put my boy in - fianlly decided on a jointed pelham with double reins, and had suitable breaks - we had a cracking day out hunting before an end to the season came. 

However, there is a but - and its a BIG but. He had some slight issues with keeping his feet to himself. Not kicking at horses, but aiming for hounds - Naughty!!! Luckily he doesnt have shoes on behind, and hes only 14hh, but after being kicked myself out hunting and shattering my lower leg, obviously I'd rather he didnt develop this habit, besides the bad etiquette of a kicker in the hunting field as well of course. 

So my question is, how would you stop him??? Im telling him off as soon as he does it, and ensuring that I am at the back of the field and away from hounds and facing them where I can, so to give him little oppertunity to kick at anything in the first place.


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## meesha (12 March 2013)

Massive *******ing as soon as he raises a leg, mine learnt after the first outing... But you really do need to reprimand strongly and quickly, in future even if he puts ears back a growl at him.  Glad the brakes were sorted, very jealous as haven't managed to get out for ages...


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## Drakerath (13 March 2013)

You need to take your stick and give your horse a thrashing. It HAS to stop doing it (otherwise you should not take it hunting at all, not even staying at the back).
I've seen hounds that have been shot on the spot having been kicked by a horse.
YOU have to stop your horse raising a leg or you don't bring the horse out. 
Hounds' safety is paramount and surpasses you desire to hunt on a given horse.


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## HeresHoping (13 March 2013)

Drakerath said:



*You need to take your stick and give your horse a thrashing*. It HAS to stop doing it (otherwise you should not take it hunting at all, not even staying at the back).
I've seen hounds that have been shot on the spot having been kicked by a horse.
YOU have to stop your horse raising a leg or you don't bring the horse out. 
Hounds' safety is paramount and surpasses you desire to hunt on a given horse.
		
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Harsh, don't you think?


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## Drakerath (13 March 2013)

No, it's not harsh. I'm not talking about 10 minutes of prolonged hitting!
The moment it has lifted its leg out at a hound (or other horse), you need to swiftly give it half a dozen whacks behind your leg.
the message you are sending is that it is not acceptable and the idea is you make your horse think twice before doing it again.
The punishment has to be without pause for breath! The link between 'kick' and 'punishment' has to be simultaneous.

It's always been the given way on how to sort out a kicker, the fastest way.

When hounds are put at risk of life and limb, it's hardly a big deal to give a horse a few whacks with a stick is it?


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## Happy Hunter (13 March 2013)

Harsh - I dont think so.

Why should a Hound suffer because a horse is disobeying/ being naughty. The Hunt provide a service to us by going out every weekend, the field have no given 'right' to attend - if they are dangerous they will be asked to leave (In some cases more politely than others!)

No suggesting this horse is the devil! - I'm sure he can be corrected swiftly, at least OP is going the right way and taking suggestions.

Do you have a clever dog that you could 'borrow' of a very good and understanding friend to try and initiate the horse a little more? - I dont mean turn the dog loose, just have it on a lead nearby while hacking out a few times.

Some say Chickens in the stables at night will help the horse get used to things around back feet. - and Chickens are cheaper


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## HeresHoping (13 March 2013)

Drakerath said:



			No, it's not harsh. I'm not talking about 10 minutes of prolonged hitting!
The moment it has lifted its leg out at a hound (or other horse), you need to swiftly give it half a dozen whacks behind your leg.
the message you are sending is that it is not acceptable and the idea is you make your horse think twice before doing it again.
The punishment has to be without pause for breath! The link between 'kick' and 'punishment' has to be simultaneous.

It's always been the given way on how to sort out a kicker, the fastest way.

When hounds are put at risk of life and limb, it's hardly a big deal to give a horse a few whacks with a stick is it?
		
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Regardless of my opinion as to whether half a dozen whacks is acceptable, what you have stated above is quite a bit different from 'a thrashing'.


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## Amymay (13 March 2013)

So my question is, how would you stop him???
		
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Three hard cracks with your stick.


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## BethanT (13 March 2013)

Thank you all for suggestions. Will deff be carrying a stick next season as we won't be going again this season. Liking the sound of chickens, and it might actually work with him. As he really doesn't like things behind him, even while galloping with hound following close behind he wasn't happy. Something to work on in summer I guess!


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## Amymay (13 March 2013)

Why were the hounds behind him when you were galloping?


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## BethanT (13 March 2013)

It was towards end of meet so very few of us left so was up front but behind master and 3 hounds where lolopping behind. I moved to side so they could pass but they didn't.


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## Amymay (13 March 2013)

Ah, I'm with you.


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## wench (13 March 2013)

I read the title as "knickers"... whoops!


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## BethanT (13 March 2013)

He's odd cause we've got about 6 dogs down yard all of which run and play around him and by his feet and he doesn't care. :/


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## ILuvCowparsely (13 March 2013)

Hereshoping said:



			Harsh, don't you think?
		
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^ agreed


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## RunToEarth (13 March 2013)

Hereshoping said:



			Harsh, don't you think?
		
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I agree with HH & D - horses should not be kicking out anyway, at a hound or at anything else, so regardless of whether you're hunting or anywhere else, you need to teach it not to boot anything, if that means a good few cracks then so be it - it works. 

If your horse kicks and hound and injures/kills it, I doubt you would be welcome hunting again.


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## Ditchjumper2 (13 March 2013)

Drakerath said:



			You need to take your stick and give your horse a thrashing. It HAS to stop doing it (otherwise you should not take it hunting at all, not even staying at the back).
I've seen hounds that have been shot on the spot having been kicked by a horse.
YOU have to stop your horse raising a leg or you don't bring the horse out. 
Hounds' safety is paramount and surpasses you desire to hunt on a given horse.
		
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I quite agree.


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## I.M.N. (13 March 2013)

I agree, smack him HARD, kicking is completely unacceptable (and incredibly dangerous) anywhere not just hunting.


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## meesha (13 March 2013)

sorry but a good few hard whallops worked with mine ... when he raised a leg the first time out he was severley reprimanded (at suggestion of more experienced members of the field - and I thank them for it !).

I am sorry but my good few whallops with my crop did not leave a mark on him and he learnt his lesson - I used to have to keep him away from other horses at faster paces and from dogs out hacking - he has learnt his lesson and can now be trusted around both hounds and horses and is a much nicer person for being taught what is acceptable - I would not want to hunt him if he was liable to kick horse or hound.


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## irishdraft (13 March 2013)

also the fact the pony is 14hh and unshod behind makes no difference it can still cause serious damage. Last season a 14hh unshod pony kicked another subscribers horse on the shoulder and cracked it cue horse off for the rest of the season and cross tied in his stable for 12 weeks.


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## ester (13 March 2013)

BethanT said:



			He's odd cause we've got about 6 dogs down yard all of which run and play around him and by his feet and he doesn't care. :/
		
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Mine has never had a problem with dogs round him/behind him etc and still doesn't but he has been twitchy about hounds coming through at times and he caught a puppy cubbing while standing round covert (I was actually so shocked he did it I was slow to react). I think he reacts differently because his blood is up and he is just more wired generally and therefore reacted unexpectedly. 

Fwiw he hasn't been again due to lameness (my sincere apologies were accepted) but I would have been much more careful in future and if shown any inclination to do it again he wouldn't have been attending.


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## livetoride (13 March 2013)

Well, I'm in the camp that says lifting a leg deserves a good hiding. I've seen too many nasty "accidents". Any kicking is totally unacceptable and must be nipped in the bud, particularly involving hounds. In most hunts, it is pretty much mandated that kickers are quickly taken aside to be disciplined with the stick. In our's, if you let a kicker get away without a few good hard whacks you would certainly be spoken to and made to feel very unwelcome.


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## frostyfingers (14 March 2013)

Exercise him with your dogs (I did this with my new horse before I took him hunting to gauge whether he was likely to react to them), and look into going hound exercising in the autumn, then lots of autumn hunting so that he gets used to them in a less exciting environment.  Every time he thinks about lifting a leg you need a voice reprimand, and every time he does it he needs a physical reprimand.  If you still feel he's likely to kick then you have to give up - it makes hunting miserable for you, and dangerous for everyone else.


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## maggiesmum (14 March 2013)

I'm generally anti violence but I had a mare kick out on the hunting field (at the field masters daughters pony!!), she got 1 instant almighty crack on the backside and never so much as lifted a leg from that day on. 
A prolonged thrashing isn't necessary, it's about timing and a short sharp shock.  
In the meantime how about some desensitizing around the legs.


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## CrazyMare (15 March 2013)

If mine did that, they would get a good old smack. My old mare doesn't even twitch if hounds move past her, which is just as well, as she'd have a melt down if I carried a whip!

I carry a leather jumping whip usually, and the best bit about it, is that it makes a good whacking noise which does just as much if not more than the feel of it IMO.


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## Luci07 (15 March 2013)

I think I would not be quick enough. At least that was the conclusion I drew on a previous horse and as he was a hefty 16.2 mw, decided it wasn't worth it. Neither did I think me being on constant tenterhooks was going to be enjoyable.

I know my young horse will be absolutely fine though. He had a summer to get used to hacking out with dogs and while he had major paddies to start with, he no longer cares about noises in the bushes or, more importantly, a dog suddenly coming out behind him. Now he doesn't care about that, I have been training my dog to stay in front of us but thought it would be good for my boy to be used to dogs coming past and behind (thinking specifically of standing in woods etc when out hunting).

I just won't risk it or if I thought I had a horse that could be sorted out would actually be sorely tempted to hand it over to another person who could be quicker than me!


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## BethanT (25 March 2013)

Thank you all for you replies. Unexpectedly I managed to get to another meet and he didn't so much as think about raising a foot and one the one occasion he did I growled at him and he stopped thinking about it. Even had horses backing up into him in tight spaces. Clever pony!


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