# Jazz progeny...



## _jetset_ (27 April 2009)

Has anyone had any dealings with some Jazz progeny???

It may be that the stallion who is my 1st choice this year will be unavailable 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Jazz would be my second choice...


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## BigRed (27 April 2009)

My friend has a Jazz daughter.  She was bred in Holland and spent her younger years being ridden then broodmare then ridden again.  She did not produce mega foals.  She is small, chestnut and very sharp.  I believe a lot of his children are sharp.  

I know he is a successful stallion, but there are others that have children with better brains.


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## MillionDollar (27 April 2009)

Who are you putting in-foal??


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## _jetset_ (27 April 2009)

Ah, now that is a secret


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## milliepup (27 April 2009)

I have a Jazz x Wolfgang mare who is 6 this year. She has amazing paces and is finally starting to enjoy her work but she has tested us and a few professional riders along the way! Very sharp and very spooky but an angel to handle on the ground but not for the faint hearted to ride. 
Shes approx 16.2hh so a decent size for us.


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## AmoreStud (27 April 2009)

I know them to be rather sharp and not one for the amateur rider.

Gorgeous horses and some with world class paces but not the mind which I think is more important.

How may offspring by Jazz have gone higher up the levels?


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## Halfstep (27 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

How may offspring by Jazz have gone higher up the levels?  

[/ QUOTE ] 

A fair few. Parzival is probably the most high profile but there are others. In this country, Sandman is one.  Movistar another.

They are known to be hot and not easy.  But talented for sure.


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## tasel (28 April 2009)

Also heard about them being hot-headed!!! My friend told me about one at her stbles that is an absolute nutcase and not for the faint-hearted!


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## _jetset_ (28 April 2009)

I agree with them being hot, but I am also into nurture vs nature too and work really hard with them as youngsters (from day one) to get their brains thinking and processing without the silly behaviour 
	
	
		
		
	


	





He is only one option, and certainly not my 1st choice of stallion at the moment. But it has to be something of Dutch blood... I am not looking for anything with the German lines


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## Faberge (28 April 2009)

Have you considered this boy - he is Dutch bred by Gribaldi but UK licensed and based. He is stunning and lovely nature:

http://www.adonnis.co.uk/


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## nomis (28 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I know them to be rather sharp and not one for the amateur rider.

Gorgeous horses and some with world class paces but not the mind which I think is more important.

How may offspring by Jazz have gone higher up the levels? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Jazz would not be ranked Number 1 Dressage Stallion in the WBFSH Rankings if his offspring were not out competing at the highest level.

If you are breeding to any stallion you have to take great consideration of your own abilities as a rider.  Its all well and good looking at Jazz or his offspring, but if you are not a good rider and able to ride these types of horses then look at another stallion.

Most horses tend to be ruined because riders dont know their own capabilities.  They see these horses, then think they will like one themselves, and are unable to do the horse any justice at all.  The next of it you hear people talking about them being "difficult" when in fact its the rider who has ruined the horse because it was basically too much horse for them.

Jazz offspring in the right hands are unbeatable, in the wrong hands they are ruined.


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## _jetset_ (28 April 2009)

nomis, I think that is the case with many 'problem' or 'difficult' horses 
	
	
		
		
	


	





OK, I am not a professional rider or anywhere near to being, but what I do have is real dedication, I am eager to learn and quick to recognise when I need help! I am also not too proud to admit when something is a little beyond me either. However, I do also feel that we all have to start somewhere 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I remember when I was putting one of my mares in foal a few years ago, someone on here sent me a PM really trying to put me off breeding because I had no experience 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 However, I said to them what I will say again, as long as you are willing to ask for advice, have common sense and are keen to learn new things, I don't think you can tell anyone they should not be doing something. 

Yes, a Jazz horse could be too hot for me, but then I am sure if handled correctly from birth that this hotness could be used in a positive way and not become an issue. Then again, I have met horses who you would never imagine to be hot potatoes who are the steamiest ones I have ever known... one particular Welshie comes to mind


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## ottodyl1 (28 April 2009)

Excuse me in my ignorance but would the mare not also have something to do with how the youngster turns out?  I have known one or two Jazz youngsters - v sharp.  One came from Holland, presumably as unbacked 3 yr old but later suspected someone had tried &amp; failed.  Think it got sent back eventually as v v difficult.  However, as others have posted, surely nurture will have an effect.  Obviously if the mare also has a hot temperament you're likely to end up with a firecracker!! And even the majority of professionals want something trainable - I agree there are professionals that are able to cope with sharp, talented horses, but I think you are looking at a limited market and possible bad publicity if a youngster that is too sharp ends up somewhere unsuitable.


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## Iestyn (28 April 2009)

If you're talking about what I think you're talking, then I possibly wouldn't consider Jazz as the mare line is known to be hot too. Think about something with Donnerhall in the lines, as they are known for their rideability and trainability. Also, OH has a Rosario 4 yr old that is mega and very trainable.


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## _jetset_ (28 April 2009)

The mare is not hot at all, has a really lovely temperment and is a pleasure to be around 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Jazz is not my first choice, but the stallion I would really like to use may not be available


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## Iestyn (28 April 2009)

What is she like ridden? Dou you know? You know my chestnut was sharp as anything to ride but was so, so easy to handle on the ground and had an adorable temperament! Once on his back though, he was very different. Mare may be lovely, but she carries the genes! We've heard of throwbacks many a time with regards to height, etc! If you are going to breed, don't just look at what you've got - think about the lineage too. I would say always, always steer clear of anything that may indicate potential offspring would only be for competent/ pro riders.


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## kumala (28 April 2009)

Jazz is a fantastic stallion and we had a jazz filly who was a complete doll but the majority are a professionals ride, If you are interested in using a KWPN stallion with a good temperament have you considered Sir Oldenburg?


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## SAMgirl (28 April 2009)

S_V your not talking about a Weltmeyer mare are you?  We have one that is exactly as you describe and (if we didn't have our own stallions) breed from her it would be to Donnerhall/Rubinstein/Sandro Hit lines too!!  In fact we have just acquired a new mare - she is Rohdiamant X Weltmeyer and is going in foal to our stallion Sir Frederic - this is him (not very good photo or video unfortunately):





YouTube Video

Nomis - I couldn't agree more!  A friend of ours in Germany really rates Jazz and predicts that we should see many more Jazz horses at top level in the future!  I believe that you should weight the foal as 60% to the mare anyway?

Jetset, I have a Jazz lad and  I love him to bits!  I have ridden quite a few Jazz horses and they are all different but I would say from the ones I have ridden they seem to all be varying degrees of sharp (from sensitive &amp; responsive to borderline bolter), and varying degrees of spooky (from a bit looky to scared of own shadow)!  But I really like them and would definitely have another one - no hesitation!


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## SAMgirl (28 April 2009)

Kumala, our stallion Sir Frederic (see above post) is by Sir Oldenburg - do you have any Sir Oldenburg offspring?  Sir Frederic was vice Champion at his stallion grading in Warendorf (and champion 4yo) and his full brother is being put forward this year!

ETA sorry to go slightly Off Topic!


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## _jetset_ (29 April 2009)

Thanks for the feedback... yes, this is a Weltmeyer mare 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I am really not a Sandro Hit fan so want to stay as far away from him as possible. I know people love him and he had proved very very successful, but he is really not for me 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I really want a KWPN, and this would be bred for me rather than with a view to sell (although should the worst happen and I can no longer keep it, I would obviously have to face the reality of selling at this point). She was good to ride, very trainable and sweet. She reminds me very much of Grace in her temperment, in that she can be quite sensitive but is also trying her very hardest to please (which can sometimes make her stressy because she gets it wrong). 

I am hoping to breed something special, something that has the potential to take me as far as I can go (and I do mean as far as I can go... I no doubt have my own limitations). I am always drawn to the Jazz horses, there is just something so special about them in my eyes. Perhaps that is why I have been so drawn to my 1st choice of stallion 
	
	
		
		
	


	





But, as I say, my main criteria is something of Dutch blood as I really don't want to put any German blood in there... The mare is double branded as Hannoverian and Oldenberg.


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## Iestyn (29 April 2009)

So does that not mean you want to go Hanoverian or Oldenburg to get offspring pink papered? Both of which are German? Correct me if I'm wrong but would you not have to have the mare graded with KWPN for resulting offspring to be given that breed society's full passport and papers? I might be completely wrong but I think that's the case with the Hanoverian breed society that my little mare is registered and pink papered with.


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## Bossanova (29 April 2009)

All I would say is that you have to enjoy your own horse so go for something you really want but be mindful of the fact that a professional's ride may mean you need extra help when breaking it and at various times along its education. It may not be a suitable 'pet' and may not be easy to take to competitions on your own.

I want to breed my next proper eventer from my mare but she wont be going to anything that I know produces difficult (if talented) horses as I cant always guarentee an extra pair of hands when required and I frequently go places on my own- some youngsters you just cant do this with.


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## Halfstep (29 April 2009)

I have to say, I would be wary of crossing Jazz to a Weltmeyer mare.  Hot x hot can easily = unrideably hot. 

For Weltmeyer, especially if you are looking at a Dutch stallion, I'd be thinking of the Ferro or Kostolany lines.  Sorry!  Jazz I think is amazing but I'd only use him on a mare with rideability imprinted in her genes (Rubenstein or Florestan, for example).


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## _jetset_ (29 April 2009)

No, I don't want to use the German lines... I would like to add some dutch blood into her 
	
	
		
		
	


	





She is also BWB registered... 

I am not 100% sure about getting the KWPN pink papers, but most KWPN horses are also graded through the various different stud books. But she could get graded as KWPN (I think) with the foal at foot as that is how she got the Oldenberg. Her head stud book is Hanoverian and she is pink papered for that (it is getting far too complicated).

The stallion who is my 1st choice is Vivaldi... but there is limited semen at the moment and the mare is well overdue too 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I really like her 2008 foal. He is by Santana and is an absolute sweetheart to be around so I know how she stamps her babies in temperment 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I would be getting a lot of help with the backing etc of the foal (as I will be doing with Troy at the end of the year) and I will be very hands on from the start with it 
	
	
		
		
	


	





So... out of curiosity, what stallions would you consider for a Weltmeyer mare? She is 17hh, chestnut and has a nice even conformation although being a mare is a little long in the back. However, her hind legs are set on her really nicely and she is quite an 'old fashioned' type WB as she has a decent amount of bone. 

The foal would need to make 16.3hh + for me to keep. And no German lines


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## Halfstep (29 April 2009)

Ok, maybe not Ferro himself if she is a bit old fashioned.  But one of his sons maybe? Rousseau?  Or maybe Gribaldi? United?  

Don't know what you have against German lines?  its much of a much really, and more important is to find a stallion that suits tbh.......


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## _jetset_ (29 April 2009)

I have been advised that the German lines can be a bit cold, therefore by adding some Dutch blood in there, you can really produce a warmer horse 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Gobbledy goop to me, but it was a trusted person who gave me this information 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 They also said that many of the German studs are now starting to add some of the Dutch lines in there for this very reason. 

So, I don't have anything against the German lines at all, I think there are some stunners out there, but I think for this mare a Dutch horse will really complement her 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I have heard some strange things about Gribaldi which have really put me off him. Plus, there seem to have been a lot of young horses for sale recently in H&amp;H for really low prices (one was £4,000) and was wondering whether they simply are not a 'desirable' horse by him. I know this is for me to keep, but I have to be realistic too and if there is any reason I cannot keep it, I would have to sell it 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I do like Gribaldi though as a horse and he is one I was considering for Han when I put her in foal...


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## sarahhelen1977 (29 April 2009)

I have a young Gribaldi stallion, and couldn't rate him highly enough - excellent conformation and movement, and his temperament and trainability are fantastic!  He has also got lots of offspring competing at the highest levels (Painted Black, Moorlands Totilas, Sisther de Jeu) and in this country Peter Storr's Privaldi and Darryl Thickett's Rex are both Gribaldi offspring, so how he could be considered undesireable I don't know!!
Aren't most horse prices a little low at the moment?


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## _jetset_ (29 April 2009)

This is not a recent thing I noticed GAN1... I first noticed it back in 2006 and since then noticed more and more and lower prices than what I thought they should be from such a stallion. 

I would not consider one of his progeny as 'undesirable', I was merely wondering why they seem to be priced at the lower end of the 'competition horse' price bracket. 

What type of mare is your boy out of?


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## sarahhelen1977 (29 April 2009)

He is out of a KWPN mare by Mondriaan - his pedigree is here
http://www.sporthorsedata.com/d?z=YgNVcx&amp;d=Adonnis

lots of Trakehner blood!

I have found my chap to be very brave, and quick to learn - he can be sharp sometimes, but I expect that in a quality horse! He is also naturally uphill with a very active hock - I absolutely love his paces, both to look at and to ride!


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## christine48 (29 April 2009)

why are you disregarding german lines? if the mare is double branded oldengerg and hannovarian already it will be easier to register the foal. 
I think you should really think carefully about Jazz lines as others on here have said his offspring are renound for being sharp but can be fantastic in the hands of professionals.
I know you think that with the correct handling you may overcome this but I doubt it if it's the genes.  you say the mare is  sensitive and can get stressy so why add sharpness  too? Also if you have to sell in the future Jazz lines may not be that easy to sell if renound for not being easy.
You are an amateur like the majority of us on here and there are so many stallions out there with good reputations for trainability which are easier for the non professionals.


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## Halfstep (29 April 2009)

I really don't think you can generalise about "German" or "Dutch" in that way.  Lauries Crusader was Hannovarian stallion of the year a few years back and he's FULL tb!  KWPN, like Hann and a lot of the other German studbooks, is essentially open - if they like the stallion they will approve it!  And the trend in most of the German studbooks recently has been towards the lighter, more modern type.  Especially Hannovarian, Westfalian and Oldenburg.  

Interestingly, a lot of the best Dutch stallions are essentially Trakheners.......

Gribaldi: I think a good one is BRILLIANT, but he was heavily used and perhaps not always on the best mares, hence a few not so great progeny out there.


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## volatis (29 April 2009)

I was just about to say that, there is a lot of German blood in the Dutch lines, like Voltaire (actually a Hanoverian) and stacks of Trakehner blood.
Dont think about what country a particular stallion was born in, think about your mare as an individual and what type of stallion you want to use, irrespective of stud book


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## machannah (29 April 2009)

always remember to compliment the horse you are breeding from, not necessarily follow trends or the "in" breed. 

Would love to understand your definition of hot and cold horses and the influence of german or ducth on this. Sorry to ask but just sounds like an odd comment which i cant personally understand.


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## SAMgirl (29 April 2009)

ETA - I was just going to echo what Halfstep &amp; Volatis have just said!  Sir Oldenburg is eligible for Oldenburg, Hannover, Westfalen &amp; Rheinland, Süd Deutschland, Dansk Varmblod, KWPN Studbooks!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  We have two Weltmeyer mares one with Hanoverian pink papers and one with dutch papers - and she has been granted Keur status too despite technically being Hanoverian!!


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## competitiondiva (29 April 2009)

My friend has 2 Jazz colts, she's on here too somewhere!! The oldest is 3 this year and won the BWBS grading here, then went to Germany and has graded into several studbooks there I believe.  Look for posts on Boston!!  He's got alot of people talking!!

And I have a 2009 colt by Movistar (Jazz) on the ground who appears to me to be stunning and so far a quick learner, leading and feet picking up by himself at 1 week old!!  

So I can only give a thumbs up for jazz and Movistar!!


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## _jetset_ (29 April 2009)

That was the main reason I was thinkin Vivaldi... he would really complement the mare and if things went well, they would produce a lovely foalie 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 However, I know things don't always go straight forwards too 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I do want something that if a filly, it could be a good quality foundation mare for me. I cannot afford to buy the type of horse that I could breed from this mare as a 2 / 3 year old, and I have just loved the whole experience of breeding 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I can't believe how much I have enjoyed it to be honest, more than I ever expected!

I would like to use a really good quality stallion if possible because she produces lovely stock herself, so I know it is worth spending a little bit more on a stallion for her. 

Everyone has a 'type' of horse that they just adore. The one that summed it up for me was Parzival... I simply adored the whole picture 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 That is the 'type' (please don't think I am naive enough to think I could breed one of that quality, that is not what I mean, I am talking the shape etc of the horse) I would look at producing for myself.


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## Halfstep (30 April 2009)

regarding KWPN breeding, my horse is a very good example of how modern warmblood breeding works. He is a pink papered KWPN, born in Holland to two fully graded KWPN parents. 

His sire (who was KWPN licensing champ in 02) is by a Trakhener stallion, and out of a mare by Donnerhall (German!).  His dam (KWPN ster mare) is by  Holsteiner stallion (Heidelberg), who himself is by a British full TB (Ladykiller).  Dam's mother is by another KWPN approved TB (Erdball).   

This is pretty typical of the modern KWPN, but the same can be said of various other European open studbooks.


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## kumala (30 April 2009)

Jetset have you seen this video.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XreNHgyUBf8
Think you will like it 
	
	
		
		
	


	





SAMgirl I have met Sir Oldenburg and he really is a lovely stallion. Extremely quiet and what a front! Lovely!


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## Tempi (30 April 2009)

If you want the Jazz lines how about Johnson?  

You know how fab my little man is and hes a pleasure to be around and handle.


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## Halfstep (30 April 2009)

Ohh yes, Johnson!  Lovely, lovely, lovely 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.  Jazz x Flemmingh.  The latter should add rideability, while complementing the movement and presence.  

How is your lovely little boy?  Kisses to him!   

xx


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## Tempi (30 April 2009)

Little man is fine - altho not so little anymore!!  i was going to pop in and see him after work but its chucking it down with rain so probably wont now.


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## Halfstep (30 April 2009)

How big is he now?  He'll be 2 soon, yes?  take some pictures!  Does he still have that lovely cheeky face?


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## kumala (30 April 2009)

Oh now i have seen LOTS of lovely Johnson offspring


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## _jetset_ (30 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Jetset have you seen this video.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XreNHgyUBf8
Think you will like it 
	
	
		
		
	


	





SAMgirl I have met Sir Oldenburg and he really is a lovely stallion. Extremely quiet and what a front! Lovely! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my... what a fantastic video!!!

Thank you so much for showing it to me, I have never seen that


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## _jetset_ (30 April 2009)

Johnson is actually on my list too, but then I see this video and just faint with longing... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWujhqfZ73g&amp;feature=related


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## Tempi (30 April 2009)

hes 1 on 1st May 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  I was going to take some pictures today but the weather is awful.  Il try and get some next week at some point


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## Tempi (30 April 2009)

I personally dont like Vivaldi's action - personal opinion tho before anyone shoots me down in flames....


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## christine48 (30 April 2009)

I thought you'd asked these questions about Jazz a few months ago? if you are thinking of breeding this year you need to decide soon.


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## Bossanova (30 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I personally dont like Vivaldi's action - personal opinion tho before anyone shoots me down in flames.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely agree- all knee action and no push off behind. Very 'showy' but very incorrect and you can see he loses regularity behind because he cant maintain his balance when his knees are up by his nose. I dont like his canter at all.


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## Tempi (30 April 2009)

Agree with you boss, couldnt have put it better myself!!


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## Madam_max (30 April 2009)

I agree totally.  Does nothing for me at all.  Rather see a horse with a good engine, rather than flashy.


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## MillionDollar (30 April 2009)

Fully agree!!!! I personally don't like his action at all.

Johnson is top of my list if I put Lottie in-foal again this year


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## Halfstep (30 April 2009)

I'd like to see a video of Vivaldi ridden in a more normal way without the hype. I think he's probably much nicer than he looks in that video if not held up and pushed to be flashy!


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## SAMgirl (30 April 2009)

Johnson is fabulous - I have ridden the most gorgeous gelding by him - stunning looking and moving horse!

ETA - I agree with Halfstep re Vivaldi.  I think Vivaldi is gorgeous!  BUT my friend who has seen him in real life said he is a VERY modern stamp of horse - and some of the offspring he saw were (in their opinion) too light, they said to me they would only breed from Vivaldi with a very good stamp of a mare.


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## kumala (30 April 2009)

I have seen Vivaldi in the flesh too, he is light of bone (which was mentioned at his stallion approval) and also quite narrow (through the chest), he does have a short, weak, vertical neck so i would use him on a mare with a good neck and one that is not too modern in type. Saying that, his movement, especially trot work is amazing and watching him warm up was a real delight. If you want to use a more proven stallion, than Jazz would be personally my No 1 choice, he is proven over and over again and i have been told by a well respected breeder in holland that if you breed a good Jazz filly hang on to her as she will be woth her weight in gold!
 Johnson was much stronger in the hind leg and more muscled when i saw him earlier this year compared to previous outings. The Johnson x TCN partout colt was fantastic this at this years stallion selection, fantastic conformation and carrying power (and was selected for the championship round).


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## pinktiger (30 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I personally dont like Vivaldi's action - personal opinion tho before anyone shoots me down in flames.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely agree- all knee action and no push off behind. Very 'showy' but very incorrect and you can see he loses regularity behind because he cant maintain his balance when his knees are up by his nose. I dont like his canter at all. 

[/ QUOTE ]



ditto above and was actually shocked at his lack of hock action compared to the front, just looks odd and a little maufactured, which im sure isnt, but wouldnt be for the faint hearted in the training department!!


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## piaffe (30 April 2009)

What about United? His babies seem to be doing well and it was a United baby,Bordeaux, that was crowned champion at the KWPN stallion inspection in Den Bosch (also I am biased as I have a united baby)!

Here a video of him-
web page


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## nomis (7 May 2009)

Have you thought about "Ampere" (Rousseau x Flemmingh x Amor).  He has also just been Approved by Holstein.....and that is no mean feat at all!  His semen is 750 euros per dose for frozen and having seen him in the flesh in Holland he is a cracking dressage horse!  Think there are not much registries that he is not Approved with now.  You can have semen ordered direct from Reesink.

Reesink Horses - Ampere


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## kumala (7 May 2009)

Hmmm
Well i wouldn't mind a horse who had this canter...
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z36/richyaustin/Foto-GQOAKYOO.jpg
(Personal pic from feb).
Or a stallion that was producing 3 year olds like this.....
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z36/richyaustin/vivaldison.jpg

Or foals like this.....

http://www.sell-veulenveiling.nl/paarden_outp.php?id=151

http://www.starsaleveulenveiling.nl/index.php?taal=uk Star sale foals 2008, number 15 deejay.

Oh and is winning pretty much everything (carl hester gave him 10/10 in ridden test, quote from Carl taken from Eurodressage.com ..... "He's the best 5-year old I've ever ridden. He's so forwards and has a enormous engine which you only have to steer. I think I want to take him home.") oh and has a fantastic foal report which is backed up with 3 foals in the national foal kwpn championship ring, one being claimed the champion??


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## kumala (7 May 2009)

Ampere is an absolutely fantastic stallion but I'm sure Jetset wanted a stallion to add foreleg length (unless i am mistaken) which i don't think Ampere would? Although his temperament and pretty much everything else would be perfect, lovely young stallion


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