# 3rd body found...



## JM07 (1 September 2008)

www.bbc.co.uk


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## Amymay (1 September 2008)

Tragic and totally outside anything I can understand.


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## CracklinRosie (1 September 2008)

I'm with you on that one Amymay, I can't understand either.


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## Kenzo (1 September 2008)

This case has really effected me, I know tragic things happen all the time, people getting murdered etc etc but this has really got to me, I just cant stop thinking about it and how terrible the whole thing is, all I hope is that they did not suffer too much, were put through too much distress etc before they were shot, I cant imagine what there families must be going through right now, so very sad.


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## jules89 (1 September 2008)

agree kenzo. im addicted to the news because i want to know the truth so i can lay this to rest. i actually deamt about this last night..


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## henryhorn (1 September 2008)

It looks as if in his deranged way he decided to take everything they loved with them, hence the dogs/horses etc being shot.
Perhaps he killed his daughter first when she was sleeping, then his wife then all the animals and returned to kill himself next to his wife's body.
You can only shudder at anyone who's state of mind would allow them to do all that.
My thoughts today are with their relatives, parents/friends etc, how terrible it must be for them to have to imagine what their loved ones faced in their final moments.
He had to be mentally ill, so perhaps we can pity him..


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## Weezy (1 September 2008)

Well I don't pity him one bit, sick bastard - what gave him the right to think that because he was a shite businessman who had made himself and his family bankrupt he could destroy 2 lives 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  I just hope and pray that the wife and daughter were killed swiftly, but I think I am right in saying that the wife did not die outright?

This is all very close to home to me right now, but at least he did the right thing and killed himself too.


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## Skhosu (1 September 2008)

Think the wife died of a gunshot wound to the head. I do wonder if both the wife and husband were involved, but also why they cant determine the mode of death for the male?
Thing that makes it sad for me is that they look like an ordinary horsey family from the pictures shown


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## *hic* (1 September 2008)

QR: echo Weezy.


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## Paddywhack (1 September 2008)

At the moment they are treated it as a murder and i heard something about a hitman.Its all very sad and my thoughts goes out to the family,there must be so much that they are not telling us about this case and the more we speculate the angrier we will get.So just let us sit back and wait for the truth to come out


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## The Virgin Dubble (1 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Well I don't pity him one bit, sick bastard - what gave him the right to think that because he was a shite businessman who had made himself and his family bankrupt he could destroy 2 lives 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  I just hope and pray that the wife and daughter were killed swiftly, but I think I am right in saying that the wife did not die outright?

This is all very close to home to me right now, but at least he did the right thing and killed himself too. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%. I have absolutely NO sympathy for him whatsoever.

There are thousands of people who have lost everything due to financial problems, but they don't slaughter and destroy everything in their path.


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## Madam_max (1 September 2008)

QR- I don't think it's right to jump to conclusions when nobody know what actually happened.  I am sure the press are making him out to be a complete monster etc etc.  I mean so what he was stripping assets from his business to set up another, that happens everyday, but doesn't make people evil  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 He must have done something right at some point as he did have a successful company.  I just find it all very sad, especially for the daughter


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## The Virgin Dubble (1 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 but also why they cant determine the mode of death for the male?


[/ QUOTE ]I would imagine that they have to be 100% certain as to whether he killed himself, or was murdered.


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## JM07 (1 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Think the wife died of a gunshot wound to the head. I do wonder if both the wife and husband were involved, but also why they cant determine the mode of death for the male?
Thing that makes it sad for me is that they look like an ordinary horsey family from the pictures shown 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

The male died from gunshot too...just obviously takes longer when he's committed suicide through his mouth...hard to find all the relevent bits i should think...


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## Tinkerbee (1 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
This case has really effected me, I know tragic things happen all the time, people getting murdered etc etc but this has really got to me, I just cant stop thinking about it and how terrible the whole thing is, all I hope is that they did not suffer too much, were put through too much distress etc before they were shot, I cant imagine what there families must be going through right now, so very sad. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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Ditto. Bizarre stories happen all the time but this one has really upset and confused me and reading an article in the paper I had tears in my eyes  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 and I don't understand why it has affected me so much?  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Maybe it's because she had horses or I don't know and she looks a bit like one of my old friends/similair house/family life so that may be it  
	
	
		
		
	


	





It is just tragic and my heart goes out to their family and friends


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## GinaB (1 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Think the wife died of a gunshot wound to the head. I do wonder if both the wife and husband were involved, but also why they cant determine the mode of death for the male?
Thing that makes it sad for me is that they look like an ordinary horsey family from the pictures shown 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

The male died from gunshot too...just obviously takes longer when he's committed suicide through his mouth...hard to find all the relevent bits i should think... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, with the intensity of the fire within the house, much of the evidence and bodies will be totally destroyed.

A very sad state of affairs


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## brighteyes (1 September 2008)

And it wasn't just two lives - animals or no, theirs were taken as well.  Sick, sick, sick.


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## Beanyowner (1 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Well I don't pity him one bit, sick bastard - what gave him the right to think that because he was a shite businessman who had made himself and his family bankrupt he could destroy 2 lives 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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Nothing has actually been said by the media concerning that tho has it? As far as I was aware all that has been confirmed is the body of Mrs Foster, 2 other bodies and the animals bodies. For all we know the financial affairs of the family may not have anything to do with it as that was all wound up in 2007...although very unlikely that its not to do with money.

I do feel very sorry for the daughter as families do not tend to share their financial worries with the children of the family.

Also...the poor animals...very sad indeed.


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## jules08 (1 September 2008)

also think its heartbreaking and on the pic of them the night befor they died they all look perfectly happy, if he did do it some thing was very wrong god it must have taken some planning to do that alone, i am still wondering wether someone else was responsible? seems like a difficult task for one person. personally i feel devestated for all those involved and really hope that the real version of events can come out


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## Puppy (1 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Think the wife died of a gunshot wound to the head. I do wonder if both the wife and husband were involved, but also why they cant determine the mode of death for the male?
Thing that makes it sad for me is that they look like an ordinary horsey family from the pictures shown 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I think if the wife was involved then she would have taken her own life - by an overdose/hanging, not asked her husband to shoot her, and would not allow her daughter and animals to be taken too. I very much doubt that she is involved 
	
	
		
		
	


	












 Her and the daughter (and animals of course) are undoubtedly the most innocent of victims imaginable to me 
	
	
		
		
	


	













The whole thing is just heartbreaking


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## carys220 (1 September 2008)

I still think that someone else killed them, grudge or something.....surely he would've just let the animals free, they could start a new life.....I can't understand any reason he would have to kill them..... or TBH his wife and child.....most business men who kill themselves in this kind of situation do it alone to 'help' their families.....if he really did do it all himself he must've had severe mental problems and surely someone would've noticed......

ETA BBC says that the body of an 'unidentified man' has also been found......hitman??


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## mickey (1 September 2008)

QR: I think it is still very much open with regard to whether he commited murders or whether there is some other explanation.
IF he did this, I am not saying I can understand or forgive, but I do think he must have been sick and thus we should not necessarily judge him as we would one of us.
BTW has anyone considered that the wife might have done this?????????


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## kerilli (1 September 2008)

No, because that is even more inconceivable to me.


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## pinktiger (1 September 2008)

this is just too horrific for words,,, the poor daughter who wouldnt have had any idea at all of financial problems prob and was just doing what teenagers do,had rest of her life ahead, and those poor animals.  I cannot believe that a father could possibly do this to his family.  my heart goes out to the family and friends involved at this awful time.


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## ForeverBroke_ (1 September 2008)

I just feel for the poor horses! What a twisted plot, with the horse box and everything?! Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez


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## The Virgin Dubble (1 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

BTW has anyone considered that the wife might have done this????????? 

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe the wife received a gunshot wound to the back of the head, so highly unlikely.


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## katherinef (1 September 2008)

I've been a bit obsessed with this one myself, feel so sorry for the daughter and hope she was dead before seeing her life destroyed around her,  her horses shot and her mother murdered.
I don't feel it was a hitman as too much of a trail would have been left, there were spent bullet cartridges littering the courtyard no professional would leave these lying around, it leaves an evidential trail
A professional might shoot a dog to keep it quiet but little point shooting horses 
Also the house had been boarded up and the windows locked from the inside  which suggests the person who did that died in the house
Whatever happened though was sudden - there was no chance for anyone either the wife or daughter to make a 999 call using a mobile or landline - or at least we don't know if any attempt was made to do so. 
It is rather chilling to see that photo of them at the barbecue and then know what transpired a few hours later.  Perhaps something happened when they returned home -maybe the mother was threatening to leave or maybe the father had his plans in place by that point?
It seems odd the daughter was talking on the internet at 1pm and all apparently seemed well - what happened in those two hours?  
All very chilling and very sad


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## The Virgin Dubble (1 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I still think that someone else killed them, grudge or something.....surely he would've just let the animals free, they could start a new life.....I can't understand any reason he would have to kill them..... or TBH his wife and child.....most business men who kill themselves in this kind of situation do it alone to 'help' their families.....if he really did do it all himself he must've had severe mental problems and surely someone would've noticed......

ETA BBC says that the body of an 'unidentified man' has also been found......hitman?? 

[/ QUOTE ]

A hitman would have no reason to kill the animals, or burn the family vehicles.
In fact, a hitman would want to get in, get the job done, and get out, in the minimum of time, so as to avoid detection.


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## Natch (1 September 2008)

QR

Another person who has been horribly affected by this tragedy of strangers.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





I just think that if he did it he must have been terribly mentally unwell to put it mildly. What on earth drives someone to destroy his life and those of the people and animals who shared it is a mystery to me, but I cannot comprehend that somebody of sound mind could do that.

I do pity the man. I pity the wife and daughter and animals too, but I don't see any point in being angry at him. People who commit suicide are rarely/never in a rational frame of mind. Massive shame that nobody spotted and got him help for whatever turmoil that was going on inside him.


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## mickey (1 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


I just think that if he did it he must have been terribly mentally unwell to put it mildly. What on earth drives someone to destroy his life and those of the people and animals who shared it is a mystery to me, but I cannot comprehend that somebody of sound mind could do that.

I do pity the man. I pity the wife and daughter and animals too, but I don't see any point in being angry at him. People who commit suicide are rarely/never in a rational frame of mind. Massive shame that nobody spotted and got him help for whatever turmoil that was going on inside him.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





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I agree. I am not meaning to undermine this horrific tragedy and loss of life. But I do think that to be angry or hate this man is not fruitful. He must have been very very sick if he did this and that is something that none of us can truly understand.


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## itsme123 (1 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I still think that someone else killed them, grudge or something.....surely he would've just let the animals free, they could start a new life.....I can't understand any reason he would have to kill them..... or TBH his wife and child.....most business men who kill themselves in this kind of situation do it alone to 'help' their families.....if he really did do it all himself he must've had severe mental problems and surely someone would've noticed......

ETA BBC says that the body of an 'unidentified man' has also been found......hitman?? 

[/ QUOTE ]

A hitman would have no reason to kill the animals, or burn the family vehicles.
In fact, a hitman would want to get in, get the job done, and get out, in the minimum of time, so as to avoid detection. 

[/ QUOTE ]

No a hitman would have just got the job done, as you say. However, someone with a serious grudge, or if they'd REALLY peed someone off may have wanted to cause as much distress as possible before the deaths. Horses, dogs, everything the family treasures... it may have been made to look like the father did it himself. I just cannot concieve that a father would do that just because of debt. A guy of his wealth must have had some degree of intelligence and control, it just doesnt add up.


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## Springs (1 September 2008)

We are all very shocked in the local area and our thoughts are with thoes that have suffered.

There was no need for the horses and dogs and gerbals to have suffered and I hope in time the truth will be known and who ever is brought to justice.

Time will tell


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## mickey (1 September 2008)

Your argument is valid I think - An interesting take on things. Sometimes things are not as simple as they first seem?


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## Nickijem (1 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
QR

Another person who has been horribly affected by this tragedy of strangers.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





I just think that if he did it he must have been terribly mentally unwell to put it mildly. What on earth drives someone to destroy his life and those of the people and animals who shared it is a mystery to me, but I cannot comprehend that somebody of sound mind could do that.

I do pity the man. I pity the wife and daughter and animals too, but I don't see any point in being angry at him. People who commit suicide are rarely/never in a rational frame of mind. Massive shame that nobody spotted and got him help for whatever turmoil that was going on inside him.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





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My thoughts exactly.
I know that it is true that the further you climb up, the further you have to fall.  Maybe he just couldn't face the shame his bankruptcy would cause but why take your family and animals too?  A truly tragic case.


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## spaniel (1 September 2008)

QR.  I find it interesting that the media, and a number of people on here, keep referring to this man as a millionaire and to a wealthy family.  They were neither.  The guy had bugger all,  the house belonged to the building society and he was a bankrupt.

There is more to this than meets the eye Im sure and IMO this is not just a straighforward financial desperation thing.


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## katherinef (1 September 2008)

I have read police are working on the theory Kirstie was killed in her bedroom.
They have worked out (God knows how) that the two previous bodies were in the sitting room. Kirstie's bedroom was on the very top floor. If her mother was murdered in the sitting room and she perhaps had her Ipod on or similar she may not have heard the shot especially given the size of the house.
She suddenly went offline at 1am  this may have been the time she was killed.
therefore  the time line  gave whoever (possibly the father) plenty of time to kill the animals and set the fires.
Supposition but feasible


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## Flame_ (1 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

I do pity the man. I pity the wife and daughter and animals too, but I don't see any point in being angry at him. People who commit suicide are rarely/never in a rational frame of mind. Massive shame that nobody spotted and got him help for whatever turmoil that was going on inside him.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





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I see a point getting angry. I'm not angry at any particular person as I don't feel I know what happened. There are too many possibilities. But whichever b'stard is responsible for murdering a fifteen year old girl in her own home and slaughtering healthy animals deserves to rot in hell. Whether they're sick or just evil they chose this disgusting act and I hope they died or die at least as horribly.


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## carys220 (1 September 2008)

Something I've just thought, and it may have been covered in the media but....if he used a shotgun to shoot horses and dogs, surely someone heard it....? It would've been very quiet at that time of the morning and there must've been at least 5 shots....I suppose none of that matters now


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## katherinef (1 September 2008)

If it was a third party who is at large out there that is truly frightening
If the truth lies close to home its tragic - if he couldn't face his money worries he should at least have let his daughter have her life 
I do feel that this is one where no third party was involved...


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## carys220 (1 September 2008)

Am I mistaken in thinking that one of the bodies found is an 'unidentified man' then? As reported on BBC website.....


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## itsme123 (1 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
QR.  I find it interesting that the media, and a number of people on here, keep referring to this man as a millionaire and to a wealthy family.  They were neither.  The guy had bugger all,  the house belonged to the building society and he was a bankrupt.

There is more to this than meets the eye Im sure and IMO this is not just a straighforward financial desperation thing. 

[/ QUOTE ]

the building society don't just give out large houses to any tom dick or harry. You have to have money in the first place. 

YES he went bankrupt, but he was also the owner of a buisness which allowed him to purchase all of his 'possessions'. You either get money via working hard, inheritance or dodgy dealings. 

I would suspect the latter. You have to be pretty intelligent and rational to build up a buisness with enough collateral to allow the building society to 'give' you a house of that size. AND to do dealings so dodgy...


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## The Virgin Dubble (2 September 2008)

The dodgy dealing theories are stemming from the hitman theories imho.

I have not heard a single thing which suggests that his business was anything other than above board and legal. The companies he owed money to, are also large, legitimate companies.
He had a great idea, got it manufactured, and made a huge amount of money out of it.

His 'downfall' appears to have stemmed from him living the dream, and spending more than he was earning. The only dodgy aspect about him was when his business was failing, he started syphoning off assets and putting them in the name of a new company. He also made out that there were 'loans' for huge amounts, paid to company directors.
That's where his business morality was called into question by a judge.
However, none of that is the stuff of gangland drama or hitmen.

He made money in the past, and he squandered it, and at the time of the fire, he was penniless, and didn't have control over any of his assets.

Picking all the news stories about him apart, one thing seems to remain consistant, and that is that he played the millionaire lifestyle to the hilt, and was in complete denial and would not accept his true financial status. He also went to great lengths to ensure nobody else knew that the end of the dream was closing in.

His refusal to accept or acknowledge how bad things had become, is one of the main reasons why I am convinced that he did it.


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## Weezy (2 September 2008)

Spaniel is right thought - although the Title Deeds were still in his name, the liquidators had the rights over the property, i.e. any monies generated from a sale would not have gone to the family.

We KNOW he is guilty of dodgy dealings, he owed a company £800k for taking his business elsewhere when he was contracted to use them!

For those that have sympathy for him, you are better people than me.  Seeing that one of my oldest friends has been murdered in the same week in similar circumstances I am afraid I have nothing but anger and totally spiteful feelings for any person that can kill in such cold blood.


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## hairycob (2 September 2008)

This is freaking me out a bit. About 17 years ago I worked for a company in a similar line of business &amp; similar financial circumstances. MD was completely delusional &amp; kept up his lavish life style even after the company was wound up. It got to the stage where on a Thursday night I would take the cash tin key home with me or the cash to pay the wages would not be there in the morning if one of his creditors sent the heavies round. It was a period of my life I don't like to be reminded of. Was on first name terms with all the local bailiffs &amp; the police got used to turning up as I reported criminal damage by heavies (was one excuse used not to pay the bill!). Thank god it never got to the stage this got to, but there were some VERY nasty threats made &amp; often there were only a couple of us ladies in the office to hear them. I was really afraid for my own safety on more than one occasion. The thing is I can imagine the guy I worked for totally flipping &amp; doing something dreadful when reality finally hit home.
Also, my husband was very depressed for a while. He would put on a show &amp; look perfectly ok when anyone was around, but as soon as it was just us he would lose his temper, nothing violent, just venting his paranoia about imagined slights &amp; being hell to live with. It's easy for outsiders not to know what is really going on inside a family.


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## JM07 (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Something I've just thought, and it may have been covered in the media but....if he used a shotgun to shoot horses and dogs, surely someone heard it....? It would've been very quiet at that time of the morning and there must've been at least 5 shots....I suppose none of that matters now 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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"he" used a .22 calibre rifle NOT a shotgun...so it could have had a silencer fitted.


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## Paddywhack (2 September 2008)

Its never easy to understand what goes through a persons mind. And yes this man did have money,daughter went to one f the best girls schools,and look at the property !
I have been in severe debt and you stick your head deeper and deeper into the sand wishing it will all go away instead of facing the music. IF he did the horrible thing i think that his reasoning was "Well if i cant have it no one will" and that includes cars,dogs etc etc.
And maybe he did no want his wife and daughter to feel the humiliation ?? Its no excuse and 
I am not saying that i feel sorry for him,IF it was him,we dont know if it was.
My mother went through a very very very bad depression 15 years ago and she was in a very bad place.
Not everyone lives happy families, behind the 4 walls there is always a different story.


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## MotherOfChickens (2 September 2008)

I refuse to condemn him before we know the truth. 

yes, he could have done it but there is equal evidence (ie not a huge amount either way) that it could have been a set up.


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## Natch (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Am I mistaken in thinking that one of the bodies found is an 'unidentified man' then? As reported on BBC website..... 

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as I understood it, they have identified the wife's body, but that there is indeed an "unidentified male" body, which they haven't found out or told us yet if it is or isn't the husband or another person. I'm not entirely sure if they have identified the 3rd body as being the teenage daughter or not either.


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## Thistle (2 September 2008)

If it was the husband and he killed himself he would have probably shot himself through the mouth - so being very difficult to positively identify.


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## trotter259 (2 September 2008)

I am another one that is absolutely glued to this story. I just want to know what on earth happened in the house. 

Im not defending him, but people who are in debt, as mentioned before, do tend to bury their heads in the sand as they think it will all go away, but unfortunately is doesn't. Becoming so distressed and unhappy with debt often makes people do silly things, it just sounds like an act of desperation.

Im just waiting with baited breath to hear the outcome of all this so I can stop thinking about it. I actually makes me sick to think anyone could possibly kill a person, let alone defenceless animals, its disgusting in my opinion. Lets just hope the truth comes out soon. 

Thinking of their families and friends at this awful time.


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## Paddywhack (2 September 2008)

The male has still not been identified,the third body is in an area that was not safe enough for them to remove it.


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## brighteyes (2 September 2008)

I'm glad I am not alone in feeling disgust and utter contempt for anyone who takes a life needlessly and even more so if that action is driven by personal failure.  You have no right to commit murder and he had absolutely no excuses for doing any of what he did.  He is completely responsible for making the decisions which led to this impasse as far as he was concerned.  Typical male ego at work here. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I think that fairly covers it, without actually accusing him of being the killer and torcher.


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## TarrSteps (2 September 2008)

Anyone who commits that level of destruction for no gain and commits suicide is not in his right mind.  Hating him or feeling sorry for him or anything else does no good now.

We all know how depressing it is to wake up every day to news reports about the down turn of the economy, how our houses are worth less than we paid for them, how there is little or no chance of improvement in the immediate future, in fact quite the opposite . . . imagine being in that sort of state and hearing all that?  Most of us are looking at tightening our belts, imagine looking at losing everything, including the respect of the people you value?

Of course I am not defending him.  But it seems obvious he was mentally ill and in WAY over his head.  Perhaps he thought "if I can't have it no one can", perhaps be thought "I don't want my family and animals to suffer disgrace and poverty and losing the things they have".  We'll never know.  Well, I HOPE none of us ever know.

A good friend of mine killed himself because his truck was going to be repossessed in part because of a tax debt.  Of course it wasn't the truck that did it, that was the trigger.  But he was just as dead.  

It's all very well to say people *shouldn't* feel so desperate about money/debt/taxes but then we live in a society that puts such incredible emphasis on getting ahead, having the most toys, and being the best provider.  Combined with a fragile personality, bad judgement and circumstance it's easy to see the slippery slope.  It's impossible to see how this leads to murder but then that's because none of us is in that situation.

As far as it being "male", yes there is probably an aspect of that.  (In which case, how grim to be male in our society.)  But then women have been known to kill their children to save them from all sorts of things, some real, some imagined.  Again, those of us that don't think like that can't possibly understand someone who does.  Whatever their gender.

Poor wife and daughter.  Poor horses and dogs.  Poor friends and family members.  It's all just awful.


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## YorksG (2 September 2008)

Absoletly agree with you TarrSteps.


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## Sooty (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 For those that have sympathy for him, you are better people than me. Seeing that one of my oldest friends has been murdered in the same week in similar circumstances I am afraid I have nothing but anger and totally spiteful feelings for any person that can kill in such cold blood. 


[/ QUOTE ] 

How awful, I had no idea. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I understand this man was heard to say 'if I can't have it (his possessions), no-one can'. Killing yourself is one thing, but a 15-year-old girl? Your own daughter? He valued his own pride and vanity more. He was a morally bankrupt businessman who thought nothing of owing others thousands, and possibly ruining their businesses. For that alone he is a loathesome character, and if he has indeed committed this atrocity, I feel nothing but hatred for him.


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## LauraBR (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]
 For those that have sympathy for him, you are better people than me. Seeing that one of my oldest friends has been murdered in the same week in similar circumstances I am afraid I have nothing but anger and totally spiteful feelings for any person that can kill in such cold blood. 


[/ QUOTE ] 

How awful, I had no idea. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I understand this man was heard to say 'if I can't have it (his possessions), no-one can'. Killing yourself is one thing, but a 15-year-old girl? Your own daughter? He valued his own pride and vanity more. He was a morally bankrupt businessman who thought nothing of owing others thousands, and possibly ruining their businesses. For that alone he is a loathesome character, and if he has indeed committed this atrocity, I feel nothing but hatred for him. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to quote such a huge chunk of text but I totally agree with you both.


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## jacks_mum (2 September 2008)

I'm really sorry but I find it appalling that anyone can have *hatred* for a man you have never met and who has not directly affected your life. If you abhorred his actions - assuming they are his actions - then I would agree with you, they are abhorrent actions but *hate* is such a strong word.


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## Madam_max (2 September 2008)

I am with you on this one and to all be saying it was greed etc etc, you really don't know that.


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## KatB (2 September 2008)

I feel nothing but utmost sympathy to him if he did do it.  How horrendous to be pushed to such a state you end up killing everything you love and have worked to acheive. Also there were talks of threats of kidnap to his daughter, if he had killied himself, he would have left all the debts behind for his family to deal with and I very much doubt any of us know how unpleasant the people he was dealing with were. Would you want to leave your loved ones to deal with people like that? 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I think it is very veyr sad that things ended how they did. RIP to all involved


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## Flame_ (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

A good friend of mine killed himself because his truck was going to be repossessed in part because of a tax debt.  Of course it wasn't the truck that did it, that was the trigger.  But he was just as dead.  


[/ QUOTE ]

Suicide; whole different thing to murder.
Someone murdered a teenage girl. They deserve nothing but hatred. They've possibly even escaped punishment by killing themself. 

Incidentally Brighteyes, while in the most part I agree with you about the gender aspect, when I did jury service I got a murder trial for a female arsonist who killed the family she was staying with.


----------



## LauraBR (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I'm really sorry but I find it appalling that anyone can have *hatred* for a man you have never met and who has not directly affected your life. If you abhorred his actions - assuming they are his actions - then I would agree with you, they are abhorrent actions but *hate* is such a strong word. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh well, I'm afraid I stand by it and certainly make no apology for it!


----------



## jacks_mum (2 September 2008)

It may be slightly different but the mind set is the same, the reasons are the same. The only difference is whether you  go alone or not.


----------



## Natch (2 September 2008)

Do they deserve nothing but hatred even if it was/could somehow be proven that they were incredibly mentally ill?

What evidence do we have that says he was of a completely sound frame of mind when he did this? We may never know one way or the other, but I really don't think he could have been of sound mind to have planned and committed these henious crimes. Losing a business and all your worldly wealth must have been incredibly stressful, what's to say that didn't trigger something a lot more serious?

That's why I can't hate him. Because I cannot comprehend that he was 100% sane &amp; sober in mind to have done this.


----------



## brighteyes (2 September 2008)

<font color="blue">  He valued his own pride and vanity more. He was a morally bankrupt businessman who thought nothing of owing others thousands, and possibly ruining their businesses. For that alone he is a loathesome character </font>

Which was the underlying character, regardless of whether he subsequently got depressed and the split personality or whatever syndrom e he supposedly might have got.  I knew when I was depressed (and what a self destructive and family ruining experience that was) exactly what had led to the downward spiral of my mental and physical state.  I did something about it and recovered and vowed not to 'go there' again (cause or effect). 

It didn't involve doing anyone down but myself and it bloody well serves HIM right that he lost everything, but that his family and their beloved animals paid the ultimate price for his morally unscrupulous behaviour is heartbreakingly tragic.

lzt and Sooty - yup, hate is OK.  No word strong enough really.
For those who are feeling pity due to mental illness, 'insanity' is a popular plea.  He should have offed himself.  If I was given the option, I'd go for bankrupt and alive thank you very much.  If my OH wants to blow his head off, that's up to him.  We'd cope.


----------



## Flame_ (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Do they deserve nothing but hatred even if it was/could somehow be proven that they were incredibly mentally ill?


[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. There may be a label for why a murderer's a murderer that does not make it OK. If you are becoming mentally ill, guess what you can phone your doctor. If you are a millionaire you can go to re-hab. Hell you can blow your brains out if you want. This was calculated, cold-blooded murder. There is always a choice and however ill you might be you know when you've got a gun in your hand and you're shooting people.


----------



## Madam_max (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
This was calculated, cold-blooded murder. 

[/ QUOTE ]

You know that then?


----------



## Faithkat (2 September 2008)

I read a report that he owed over £2 million and the house was about to be repossessed . . . . . . . Like you, I believe he killed wife, daughter and animals, set the the fires and then shot himself.


----------



## Sooty (2 September 2008)

Snap. I feel unspeakable rage and immense sorrow when I think of a 15 year long life being snuffed out, and I do not accept the 'state of mind' argument. This man was described by a High Court Judge as being morally bankrupt; he systematically despatched his animals and family and made it impossible for rescue services to enter. My only hope now is that he didn't botch any of the shootings, and that it is indeed his body also inside the house.


----------



## TarrSteps (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

A good friend of mine killed himself because his truck was going to be repossessed in part because of a tax debt.  Of course it wasn't the truck that did it, that was the trigger.  But he was just as dead.  


[/ QUOTE ]

Suicide; whole different thing to murder.
Someone murdered a teenage girl. They deserve nothing but hatred. They've possibly even escaped punishment by killing themself. 

Incidentally Brighteyes, while in the most part I agree with you about the gender aspect, when I did jury service I got a murder trial for a female arsonist who killed the family she was staying with.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think someone sane would kill themselves merely to escape punishment?  What's the point in that?  OF COURSE, he should NEVER have even considered harming his wife and daughter but it's not like he killed them to cover up a crime or because he was somehow annoyed with them.  He clearly felt - for whatever reason - he couldn't "leave them behind".  NOT SANE.  (Although kings are famous for it.)  

This really doesn't look like he killed them in passion and then shot himself in grief, which might be the other argument in the escaping punishment point.  It's ABHORRENT to take a life, to hurt other people . . . does everyone really think this was his goal, though?  That escape and desperation and imbalance had nothing to do with it?

As to suicide, everyone knows that hurts other people.  And yet people do it anyway.  I don't for a second think people who make that choice think about it rationally . . . if they could do that would they reach that conclusion?  I'm sure my friend thought he was SAVING his fiance the pain of his humiliation.  Idiot.  

I would argue all of us have lied to love ones.  Not on this scale and never with these consequences but hands up the person who has never made light of a debt or run away from a problem.  OF COURSE this doesn't excuse his behaviour - nothing does.  But to say he planned all this out, just to be a prick . . . it doesn't make any sense.  So if he's not making sense . . . 

*Should* this man have left his wife and child safe?  Of course.  He should never have got them into the whole mess in the first place.  He shouldn't have lied, he shouldn't have fiddled the books, he should have been realistic and sensible.  Obviously.  But he wasn't.  For a long, long time.


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## Amymay (2 September 2008)

Sooty, as ever, sums it up beautifully.


----------



## Natch (2 September 2008)

Quote:


[/ QUOTE ]
 If you are becoming mentally ill, guess what you can phone your doctor.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with that statement. There are many, many people who suffer from all sorts of mental illnesses in this country yet do not go to their doctor. The reason they don't go to their doctor is often related to the illness, and can vary from "I'm making it up" to not understanding that there is anything wrong. 

...but I am happy to agree to disagree with others on the pity/hate thing, its your emotions and entirely your choice!


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## The Virgin Dubble (2 September 2008)

Every single person who has committed a crime, has had a 'reason' to do it.

Paedophiles who rape and kill young children have mental issues which drive them to commit these acts, but we rarely see anybody fighting their corner and telling others that they shouldn't hate these men for what they have done.

This man destroyed everything systematically, and made sure that nothing could be saved.
I would be interested to hear what a criminal psychologist makes of his actions, because from where I'm sitting, his actions go WAY beyond those of a man at the end of his tether.


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## mrussell (2 September 2008)

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and FWIW, here is mine.

"Innocent until proven guilty".

My condolensces to anyone affected by this horror.


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## jacks_mum (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Every single person who has committed a crime, has had a 'reason' to do it.

Paedophiles who rape and kill young children have mental issues which drive them to commit these acts, but we rarely see anybody fighting their corner and telling others that they shouldn't hate these men for what they have done.


[/ QUOTE ]

You must have missed the thread a few weeks ago about Gary Glitter and peadophiles and the mental aspect of what they do and how they should be treated somehow rather than despised and attacked by mobs then?


----------



## brighteyes (2 September 2008)

The only thing I can liken it to is what supposedly happens when you upset The Mob.  Almost the stuff of fantasy and completely incomprehensible to the average person.


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## Flame_ (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This was calculated, cold-blooded murder. 

[/ QUOTE ]

You know that then?  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. The driveways were blocked and the exits were blocked. Not a crime of passion.


----------



## The Virgin Dubble (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Every single person who has committed a crime, has had a 'reason' to do it.

Paedophiles who rape and kill young children have mental issues which drive them to commit these acts, but we rarely see anybody fighting their corner and telling others that they shouldn't hate these men for what they have done.


[/ QUOTE ]

You must have missed the thread a few weeks ago about Gary Glitter and peadophiles and the mental aspect of what they do and how they should be treated somehow rather than despised and attacked by mobs then? 

[/ QUOTE ]
Why the patronising comment that I must have missed that thread?

No, I did not miss it. 
However, the views of a few people on a horsey forum are hardly representative of the views of the whole population.

I quote " <font color="blue"> we *rarely* see anybody fighting their corner.  </font>


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## Weezy (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and FWIW, here is mine.

"Innocent until proven guilty".

My condolensces to anyone affected by this horror. 

[/ QUOTE ]

He has been proven guilty, unless the CCTV of him with a shotgun leaving the stable block was tampered with


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## kerilli (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This was calculated, cold-blooded murder. 

[/ QUOTE ]

You know that then?  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. The driveways were blocked and the exits were blocked. Not a crime of passion. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with KVS. The blocking of the driveway with the trailer with slashed tyres, to deliberately slow down the rescue services, and the barricading of the doors inside the house, is surely proof of premeditation.


----------



## Flame_ (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and FWIW, here is mine.

"Innocent until proven guilty".

My condolensces to anyone affected by this horror. 

[/ QUOTE ]

A small consolation, but I'd love it to turn out not to be the husband and it be someone trying to get revenge and set him up. I also want whoever did it to rot in hell.


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## Madam_max (2 September 2008)

Or maybe he blocked the windows and the drive as he knew the bailiffs were coming and the events unfolded from there.


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## The Virgin Dubble (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Or maybe he blocked the windows and the drive as he knew the bailiffs were coming and the events unfolded from there. 

[/ QUOTE ]
It is feasible, but I don't think Kirstie would have been happily chatting to friends on the internet, while her daddy was barricading the house.


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## JM07 (2 September 2008)

maybe i've watched "murder she wrote" too often, but...



"he" put a silencer on the gun, shot the daughter/wife..

went outside, shot the 3 horses/dogs, drove horsebox to end of drive, blocked drive, walked back, set fire to garage and stables....walked to house, chucked the dogs inside, baracaded doors, set fire to house, then when all was well alight, went to his wife and shot himself...

my 50pence worth...


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## Flame_ (2 September 2008)

Impressive  

OK Sherlock, why did "he" do it and do you feel sorry for him?


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## Tia (2 September 2008)

Totally agree.

He did it because he was an arrogant and self centred assh*le.


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## jacks_mum (2 September 2008)

[quoteWhy the patronising comment that I must have missed that thread?



[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't patronising Dubs, or I wasn't meaning to. I thought you must have missed it and was saying that it had happened and people had 'defended' and said that paedophiles aren't necessarily in control of themselves. Sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my intention.


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## mrussell (2 September 2008)

Weezy, I havent seen any reports of what was in the CCTV footage. The lunchtime BBC news said that there were rumours that it contained images of the father but that this hadnt been confirmed.

I doubt it would be tampered with but until its is confirmed by official sources that he had the gun and was seen killing anything or anyone, I will reserve my judgement.

He MIGHT have barracaded the family in and blocked the gates, then gone and got a gun to try and protect the family.  Who knows at this moment in time?


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## The Virgin Dubble (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[quoteWhy the patronising comment that I must have missed that thread?



[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't patronising Dubs, or I wasn't meaning to. I thought you must have missed it and was saying that it had happened and people had 'defended' and said that paedophiles aren't necessarily in control of themselves. Sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my intention. 

[/ QUOTE ]

No probs hun - you certainly haven't offended me. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I really do see what you're trying to say, but everything about this man seems to point to greed and pride.

He continued his luxury lifestyle WAY after his business floundered, and syphoned off assets in order to keep going.

If he had killed himself, I could sympathise to an extent, and even killing his family might indicate a man who wanted to spare them the shame of being penniless, but it is still all about his pride.

But when you add on the killing of the animals, the destruction of the cars, and the burning down of the house, it becomes more than just saving your family from shame.

The only reason I can see for doing all that is a 'if I can't have it, nobody can' mentality.


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## jacks_mum (2 September 2008)

So many do that though - I've worked for several, the only reason people are up in arms about it is because of what it appears it has lead to, otherwise no-one gives a toss.

I am finding it hard that people are saying they hate a man they have never met and who has not directly affected their lives based on this. It seems very OTT to me. I am also trying to point out - very very badly it appears - that there are always two sides to every story and often the obvious is not always the reason for something. Everyone, myself included, is jumping to the most disturbing conclusions and assumptions, believing what the papers print - and we all know they can't be trusted -and calling a man none of us knows the most vile things with no concrete proof. To be honest it makes me sad for human life. I think I should stop trying to see both sides of the coin, it only ever gets me into trouble.


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## teabiscuit (2 September 2008)

the trouble is, which ever side of the coin i look at it from, it doesn't look anything but nasty


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## jacks_mum (2 September 2008)

I must be looking at the edge too then


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## Madam_max (2 September 2008)

I'm with you.  All we know at the moment is that his company hit financial difficulty after changing suppliers resulting in a breach of contract.  This does not make him evil, etc etc.  What other actual proof is there that he was vile, selfish etc etc.


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## jacks_mum (2 September 2008)

Only what the papers sensationalise.


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## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 This does not make him evil, etc etc.  What other actual proof is there that he was vile, selfish etc etc.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'd see the fact that he slew his family, and pets as an indicator.

If ever you find I've killed and torched my OH, horses, and Samham, along with the house, feel free to call me vile and selfish.
S


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## Madam_max (2 September 2008)

Do you know that then?


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## teabiscuit (2 September 2008)

is it the fact that his guilt hasn't been proved that is troubling you JM and MM?

if it comes out that he is indeed guilty of shooting 4 dogs, 3 horses, his wife and daughter, setting fire to his house before killing himself will you still defend him?


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## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know that then? 

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty confident.
Aren't you a teensy weensy little bit suspicious that everything was barricaded from the inside, that he's been spotted running around torching things with a rifle in his hand?
I'm willing to bet you?!
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





ETA: Or do you reckon it is cunning creditors and their hitmen, burning all the assets....oh wait....


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## The Virgin Dubble (2 September 2008)

No JM, differing opinions allow us to see things from a different perspective. It wouldn't do for us all to think the same. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




I do not 'hate' Chris Foster, but I hate what he has done, and feel absolute disgust that he murdered his wife and child.

The news conference has confirmed much of the press speculation I'm afraid, though I feel nothing but sadness at having my thoughts confirmed.


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## TarrSteps (2 September 2008)

Maybe because believing he was just all evil makes it "easier" to bear.  If he was just a selfish, psychopath then it's simple to explain and nothing similar would ever, ever happen to anyone any of us know.  If he was "normal", even if not the nicest (after all, few crooked businessmen kill their families and animals and destroy their houses - usually they just leave wreckage and keep going) and then snapped somehow . . . well, what does that say about what people are capable of?

How does everyone know, if the worst suspicions can ever be confirmed, that the wife and daughter weren't in on it?  Perhaps they agreed that a life without all they had wasn't worth living?  There is precedent.  I'm not saying it's likely or even possible but as a few people have said, we just don't know. . . 

Of course he could just have been a selfish ******* who lied, cheated and ruined everything then tried to take it with him, no matter who got hurt.  It's happened.  Lots of very famous people have done the same, even with social encouragement.  (Wives sealed up in tombs anyone?)  The fact is we don't know, we likely never will.  Do we avoid the evil people or try to make them less evil or try not to make sure borderline people don't fall over the edge?  Or do we just accept there are things we'll never know about?

And J_M, don't give up.  The world needs people who see the grey, just like it needs people prepared to run with a belief no matter what.  Life is confusing and complicated and while it's tempting to *make* it simple I haven't been able to see the wisdom in that.  But I'll agree, living in the middle usually gets you in trouble with both ends!


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## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

'BBC Breaking news:  West Mercia Police say they believe Christopher Foster killed his wife and daughter before setting fire to his Shropshire mansion and taking his own life' 

Is is ok to call him an evil sh*t yet?
S


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## Madam_max (2 September 2008)

Again, do you 'know' he has been seen running around with a rifle.

Of course I don't think it's his creditors/hitmen.

I am commenting on all the other crap that has been reported about him.  I just feel there is a lot more to this than some man doing this out of selfishness.


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## jacks_mum (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
if it comes out that he is indeed guilty of shooting 4 dogs, 3 horses, his wife and daughter, setting fire to his house before killing himself will you still defend him? 

[/ QUOTE ]

I would not defend his actions - I don't believe I have defended the actions of who ever has done this. But I would not hate him, that is too wrong, too harsh. The actions are abhorrent certainly but there will be a reason for them. Whether that reason makes any sense at all to anyone other the perpetrator is irrelevant, it made pure, total sense to them at the time they  did it.

Dubs - I am glad you say you dont him, just his actions. That is rational, hating him IMO is not.

Tarrsteps - you just made me cry.


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## teabiscuit (2 September 2008)

MM won't you answer my question?
is it the fact that he's being judged guilty before it's proved that is bothering you?

if he is guilty would you feel the same way?


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## Madam_max (2 September 2008)

As I have said my issue isn't about the result of this.  What I think is wrong is all the other crap that has been dragged up about his character.


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## teabiscuit (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
The actions are abhorrent certainly but there will be a reason for them. Whether that reason makes any sense at all to anyone other the perpetrator is irrelevant, it made pure, total sense to them at the time they did it.


[/ QUOTE ] 

i agree - i'm sure it made sense to him at the time, i'm sure he had his reasons all worked out

that doesn't excuse him.


----------



## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Again, do you 'know' he has been seen running around with a rifle.

Of course I don't think it's his creditors/hitmen.

I am commenting on all the other crap that has been reported about him.  I just feel there is a lot more to this than some man doing this out of selfishness. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.  The police believe it was him as I posted above;
'BBC Breaking news: West Mercia Police say they believe Christopher Foster killed his wife and daughter before setting fire to his Shropshire mansion and taking his own life' 

S


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## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
As I have said my issue isn't about the result of this.  What I think is wrong is all the other crap that has been dragged up about his character. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not every businessman is castigated by a judge for immoral activities, who also described Foster as 'not to be trusted'.
Seems that would have been good advice for his family too...
S


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## teabiscuit (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
As I have said my issue isn't about the result of this.  What I think is wrong is all the other crap that has been dragged up about his character. 

[/ QUOTE ]

ahh i haven't read those comments, except that he might have taken pot shots at grey squirels now and again.

i'm not sure what people could say about him that can be worse than killing his family and pets and himself, and setting fire to his home


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## Tierra (2 September 2008)

Well one of the bodies is definitly that of Mr Foster:-

West Mercia Police confirmed that Christopher Foster's body had been identified after being found at Osbaston House, in Maesbrook

Taken from bbc news. Theyre still waiting complete confirmation on the daughter but i think everyone is pretty certain who it is 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Such a sad state of affairs and my thoughts go out to all those close to the family.


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## TarrSteps (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

Tarrsteps - you just made me cry. 

[/ QUOTE ]


Oh dear.  Not my intention, sorry.  Was just trying to assure you there are lots of people wandering around in the fog, wondering if they've missed a memo that everyone else is so certain!

I'd give you one of my shortbread cookies but I can't figure out a way to put it in a PM.


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## Madam_max (2 September 2008)

How very, very sad.


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## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Tarrsteps - you just made me cry. 

[/ QUOTE ]


Oh dear.  Not my intention, sorry.  Was just trying to assure you there are lots of people wandering around in the fog, wondering if they've missed a memo that everyone else is so certain!


[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, I think if you have any information to the contrary, you ought to contact West Mercia Police as a matter of urgency so they can start looking for the correct culprit/s without delay.
S


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## teabiscuit (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
How very, very sad.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

yes, and utterly horrifying. it's one of those cases that has really had an impact on me.
how many of us have had hard financial times?

we certainly have, tough tough times. there but for the grace of god....


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## Madam_max (2 September 2008)

It has me.  I think it really is because I find it do difficult to understand what makes someone do this.


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## TarrSteps (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Tarrsteps - you just made me cry. 

[/ QUOTE ]


Oh dear.  Not my intention, sorry.  Was just trying to assure you there are lots of people wandering around in the fog, wondering if they've missed a memo that everyone else is so certain!


[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, I think if you have any information to the contrary, you ought to contact West Mercia Police as a matter of urgency so they can start looking for the correct culprit/s without delay.
S  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Um, huh?  

Was referring (using my quote button and quick reply appropriately, I think) back to the sidebar conversation which was not specifically about this case but applied to a more general comment.  Sorry to have offended/annoyed/upset you by answering someone else's comment to me.


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## TURBOBERT (2 September 2008)

How sad he has been driven to do such a horendous thing.  Goodness know his state of mind at the time.  The members of the extended family must be totally traumatised.  We can only offer our simpathy to all who knew and loved them.


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## YorksG (2 September 2008)

Agreed there, I must say that I find it odd that people are talking about him 'taking it with him' and that he is an evil man etc. I could see that if he had killed the family, animals etc, torched the house and run away to live in some country without an extridition treaty. BUT the man himself is dead as well, how does that mean he got away with anything. Dead seems pretty much final to me.


----------



## JM07 (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]





 Impressive  

OK Sherlock, why did "he" do it and do you feel sorry for him?   
	
	
		
		
	


	









[/ QUOTE ]

WHY??? no idea.....and TBH, It doesn't really bother me either way...

i didn't know him, his wife or his extended family  so i'm not personally effected...


----------



## SirenaXVI (2 September 2008)

I find it hard to castigate the man too, his state of mind must have been severe for him to do what he did.  Whilst his actions are alien and abhorent to me, the man did kill himself too, and it appears must have been thinking about it for some time. I am in no way excusing what he did to his family and their animals, but his mental state must have been terrible, none of us can know just how he was feeling but I do feel that we should have some compassion for a man who was very obviously mentally ill.

This is all so very very sad but I do not think Chris Foster was evil, sick yes, but not evil.


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## Madam_max (2 September 2008)

Phew, that was put far better than I did and that sums it up.


----------



## lucretia (2 September 2008)

i havent read this whole thread but it seems to me that by killing the animals the man had a shred of humanity left. he must have known he was going to torch the house, that would be a terrible death for them. 
  And it is easy to judge from afar but it is also easy to be driven to insanity by combinations of circumstances that indivdually would not have so drastic an effect. If you are on the precipice the actions he took would all have looked sane and for the best to him. 
  i do not condone what he has done but i have been close to total breakdown myself and had it not been for one or two  people whose unexpected kindness saved me who knows where i might have ended up. perhaps the man was not so lucky, perhaps his life' choices gave him no one to  turn to and therefore he stepped over the brink.
  this is the most sad and tragic story, i think our thoughts should be entirely with any relatives and that that castigating the man when he is dead and we do not know the circumstances serves little purpose except to make the paparazzi richer.


----------



## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
but I do feel that we should have some compassion for a man who was very obviously mentally ill.

This is all so very very sad but I do not think Chris Foster was evil, sick yes, but not evil. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you can simplify things, or absolve him from responsibility by saying he committed suicide, ergo he must be insane.
His actions in killing his wife, daughter, animals and destroying property belonging to others were evil, and if one is the sum of one's actions, he is evil too.
May Jill and Kirstie Foster rest in peace, and their relatives find some comfort.
S


----------



## lucretia (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Phew, that was put far better than I did and that sums it up. 

[/ QUOTE ]

couldnt agree more.


----------



## SirenaXVI (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but I do feel that we should have some compassion for a man who was very obviously mentally ill.

This is all so very very sad but I do not think Chris Foster was evil, sick yes, but not evil. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you can simplify things, or absolve him from responsibility by saying he committed suicide, ergo he must be insane.
His actions in killing his wife, daughter, animals and destroying property belonging to others were evil, and if one is the sum of one's actions, he is evil too.
May Jill and Kirstie Foster rest in peace, and their relatives find some comfort.
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Not insane, mentally ill, mental illness is a terrible thing, people loose the ability to think logically, for him perhaps this was the only way out that he could see.  I also believe that he knew that by killing himself, any life insurance would be null and void, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that he wanted to spare his family   grief, sadness and an uncertain financial future, like Lucretia, I believe the animals were killed in an act (in his eyes) of compassion.   Perhaps he also believed that the family could be together after death, who know what this man was thinking.  

I am in no way absolving him of blame, just trying to understand why someone would do this terrible thing, I just do not believe it was a selfish act, tbh if he was selfish, he would have just killed himself and left them all to come to terms with it.

Who knows


----------



## mickey (2 September 2008)

QR Haven't read all of this post, but I do think it is pointless trying to understand why he did this, that, or the other, without a consultant's view. Also equally pointless trying to treat his actions (with hate, rage etc) as if he were right in his head. I personally think the only people fit to judge why he committed this crime and whether his sickness meant he was not able to feel a sense of right or wrong at the time are PSYCHIATRISTS. We are wasting our time speculating or stating that he was 'evil'.


----------



## Natch (2 September 2008)

Good point well made, Mickey.


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## brighteyes (2 September 2008)

<font color="blue"> by killing the animals the man had a shred of humanity left. he must have known he was going to torch the house, that would be a terrible death for them.  </font> 

Yes you are right.  Next time I want my cake and my ha'penny, I'll kill all my horses, my kids and their pets and my OH.  Before topping my poor sorry self I'll incinerate my property (which is half my OH's but that's OK because he's now dead) and waste christ knows how much police and forensics time and maybe even cost a fire-fighter or two their life.  Because I am humane.


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## siennamum (2 September 2008)

I can't feel any sympathy for people like Mr Foster. He's no different to the men/women who kill their children due to marital break up or the woman who recently killed her baby in a microwave. Do we have lots of sympathy for the man who killed those four small children in North Wales 'cause his wife had left him... I certainly don't, only for the innocents that are killed &amp; the grieving family members who remain.

He had absolutely no right to kill his wife &amp; child, couldn't give a to** how depressed he was at the fu*k up he'd made of his life. No sympathy for him from me.


----------



## lucretia (2 September 2008)

read the post properly before making a sarcastic comment. as Mickey said we are not experts we dont know what was going on in his head, i just think he thought it better to shoot the animals instead of letting them dies in the flames. i did not say that made his actions better or worse, i am just not prepared to call a man evil before i know all the facts. as several people have said, mental illness does not mean evil. 
  frankly his actions though terrible will waste a lot less police time, if you are so concerned with that, than collecting evidence against jamie gray, or the moors murderers or the railway rapist. or if he had killed the family and done a runner for that matter. as soon as the bodies are all identified thats pretty much it  for police time really.


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## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 I just do not believe it was a selfish act, tbh if he was selfish, he would have just killed himself and left them all to come to terms with it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, I'm so hoping my OH is a selfish b*st*rd, and, if the urge takes him, tops himself whilst leaving me to 'come to terms with it'.
I hope he doesn't nobly try to slaughter me, healthy animals and our possessions too.
S


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## chunklovescooks (2 September 2008)

Am i the only one thinking (VERY slim chance) but maybe he did it for the benefit of his family? he didnt want them living in poverty after his debts were collected and would rather them be dead than have a poor quality of life? its still selfish.. but slightly less wierd?

S


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## teabiscuit (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
frankly his actions though terrible will waste a lot less police time

[/ QUOTE ]

posts like this confuse me, i'm really not sure why that's relevant


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## Weezy (2 September 2008)

QR:  Just wanted to say I don't *hate* him and I have been careful about saying that.  I hate what he has done and I despise him as a man, father and husband - he has put his family in a tenuous situation for years because of his own actions and that is abhorrent.  Just say that it had have been a hit, the blood would STILL have been on his hands, whichever way you look at it.  I am angered and disgusted.

I tend not to try and hate anyone, but there is one person I hate right now, and that is Alan Jermey for what he did to my friend.  I hate him for what he has done to 2 innocent little girls.  I hate him for what he has done to Kirsty's family and friends.  Maybe the hate will dissipate into something else over time, but right now the raw, emotional feelings I have are eating me up.  I don't think I will ever feel sorry for him, but he has a life sentence knowing what he did, in cold blood, and for that I spit at him.


----------



## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
QR Haven't read all of this post, but I do think it is pointless trying to understand why he did this, that, or the other, without a consultant's view. Also equally pointless trying to treat his actions (with hate, rage etc) as if he were right in his head. I personally think the only people fit to judge why he committed this crime and whether his sickness meant he was not able to feel a sense of right or wrong at the time are PSYCHIATRISTS. We are wasting our time speculating or stating that he was 'evil'. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is pointless of you to comment on how pointless it is for us to consider whether he is sane or not.  I am not sure I even accept your point that only PSYCHIATRISTS (why SHOUT?) are the only people fit to judge. 
I think only psychiatrists, sorry PSYCHIATRISTS, are fit to judge whether there is any point in your considering our  contributions pointless, too.
But that doesn't seem to have stopped you.
S


----------



## jacks_mum (2 September 2008)

My cousin has had to 'come to terms' finding her husband hanging from a light flex in his study. It's not all you'd make it out to be Shils and I know on more than one occasion she has wished he took her too rather than leave her to cope with the fall out that followed. Be careful what you wish for


----------



## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
i havent read this whole thread but it seems to me...

read the post properly before making a sarcastic comment.  

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone see a contradiction here?
S


----------



## JM07 (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i havent read this whole thread but it seems to me...

read the post properly before making a sarcastic comment.  

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone see a contradiction here?
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

me, me, me...



do i get a prize???


----------



## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
My cousin has had to 'come to terms' finding her husband hanging from a light flex in his study. It's not all you'd make it out to be Shils and I know on more than one occasion she has wished he took her too rather than leave her to cope with the fall out that followed. Be careful what you wish for 

[/ QUOTE ]

Excuse me?!  What on earth are you saying to me?  How absolutely dare you lecture me about your cousin's husband's suicide?
Read my post more carefully, as you appear to have missed the meaning ENTIRELY.
S


----------



## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i havent read this whole thread but it seems to me...

read the post properly before making a sarcastic comment.  

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone see a contradiction here?
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

me, me, me...



do i get a prize???






[/ QUOTE ]

Well done, JM07, you are the Clouseau of HHO.
S


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## JM07 (2 September 2008)

finger on the pulse at all times....


----------



## jacks_mum (2 September 2008)

No I haven't missed you meaning, I just felt it was in bad taste and extremely hurtful to anyone who may have been in the situation of having a close family member commit suicide.


----------



## Sooty (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 I am finding it hard that people are saying they hate a man they have never met and who has not directly affected their lives based on this. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

IF this story turns out to be true, then I feel deep hatred for such a cold-blooded, cold-minded premeditated act of wanton murder; especially of a young girl, and the person responsible for it. I also have a deep hatred and loathing of Hitler, whom similarly I have never met.


----------



## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
No I haven't missed you meaning, I just felt it was in bad taste and extremely hurtful to anyone who may have been in the situation of having a close family member commit suicide. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you have missed my meaning entirely.
And your comments seem to be in extremely bad taste, to me.
Not that you'll care, I'm sure you can't see past your own family.
S


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## Sooty (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 i havent read this whole thread but it seems to me that by killing the animals the man had a shred of humanity left. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Or he didn't want to just turn them loose in case someone else ended up with them... Let's hope he was an expert shot, as we all know that shooting a horse requires a great deal of accuracy if it is to be a humane death.


----------



## teabiscuit (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]
 I am finding it hard that people are saying they hate a man they have never met and who has not directly affected their lives based on this. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

IF this story turns out to be true, then I feel deep hatred for such a cold-blooded, cold-minded premeditated act of wanton murder; especially of a young girl, and the person responsible for it. I also have a deep hatred and loathing of Hitler, whom similarly I have never met. 

[/ QUOTE ]

i've been wanting to make the same point myself Sooty but wimped out


----------



## Weezy (2 September 2008)

I was going to write that I couldn't hate people I didn't know, then thought about Hitler and deleted that line in my post


----------



## LauraBR (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I also have a deep hatred and loathing of Hitler, whom similarly I have never met. 

[/ QUOTE ]

But Sooty, in order to commit genocide Hitler must have been mentally ill therefore deserves everyones sympathy and understanding and is absolved of a degree of responsibility. Apparently 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Sorry to be so flippant but sheesh, you could argue any mass murderer must be mentally ill in order to commit their crimes. It's not a carte blanche excuse.


----------



## Sooty (2 September 2008)

I think Hitler sprang to mind simply because of the premedidated nature of the whole set-up. Obviously there have been many tyrannical murderous leaders of various nations, but it is the clinical nature of this that has really got to me.


----------



## lucretia (2 September 2008)

yes that is also fair comment and i hope so too.


----------



## lucretia (2 September 2008)

yeah but there are several types of nutter arent there? ones that are born with little or no conscience and those that become unstable because of circumstances? hitler was a pyschopath or is it a sociopath, if your man in shropshire was one of those then it was likely to be premediated evil but then he would be unlikely to kill himself because those sorts of nutters dont see that they have done wrong or tht normal rules apply to them. maniac depressiveness is something else entirely and i will be interested to find out ( as we will in the course of time) what sort of mental problem this man did have. it doesnt excuse him but might explain it.


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## Sooty (2 September 2008)

Sociopath and psychopath are basically the same thing, and from reading about his business dealings it does seem this man was somewhat lacking in the moral fibre department. Who now knows how far his ruthlessness went? Well, I mean we now know the final effects, but I wonder what he was like as a person. None too nice, yet with a charming exterior, I'd wager.


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## kerilli (2 September 2008)

I cannot believe that people are trying to justify what he did, and saying that it was "humane" to shoot the animals. why not put the horses out in the field? and put the dogs in a car and drive it down the lane 100 yards, knowing that the police and firemen will be there within an hour anyway.
it beggars belief that this coldly calculated slaughter can possibly have a positive spin put on it.
like Shilasdair, i very sincerely hope, to the very bottom of my heart, that no-one ever presumes to be so "humane" on behalf of me or my animals.


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## LauraBR (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot believe that people are trying to justify what he did, and saying that it was "humane" to shoot the animals. why not put the horses out in the field? and put the dogs in a car and drive it down the lane 100 yards, knowing that the police and firemen will be there within an hour anyway.
it beggars belief that this coldly calculated slaughter can possibly have a positive spin put on it.
like Shilasdair, i very sincerely hope, to the very bottom of my heart, that no-one ever presumes to be so "humane" on behalf of me or my animals. 
	
	
		
		
	


	













[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree Kerilli


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## Jingleballs (2 September 2008)

I've also been glued to this story since this broke and am desperate to find out what really happened.

I don't feel any anger or hatred towards the father - if he indeed was responsible.  The whole thing has just made me very, very sad.


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## teapot (2 September 2008)

One of the reasons he would have shot the horses &amp; dogs is that once the fire had started in the stable block (which judging by the photos was seperate to the house) the noise they would have made would have alerted the wife and daugther. They would have no doubt have come running and thus mucked up his plan for them to be in the house at the time. 

Once they had seen the fire, the fire bridage would have been on there way and it would have completely scuppered his plans of shooting them. How would he able to explain two shot bodies by the stable yard 10mins after a phone call to 999? Nothing humane about killing those animals, he did it to avoid any problems later on that night. 

Feel sorry for the wife and daughter in all of this


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## LauraBR (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
One of the reasons he would have shot the horses &amp; dogs is that once the fire had started in the stable block (which judging by the photos was seperate to the house) the noise they would have made would have alerted the wife and daugther. They would have no doubt have come running and thus mucked up his plan for them to be in the house at the time. 


[/ QUOTE ]

My understanding is that the police believe the family to have been shot first.


----------



## SirenaXVI (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One of the reasons he would have shot the horses &amp; dogs is that once the fire had started in the stable block (which judging by the photos was seperate to the house) the noise they would have made would have alerted the wife and daugther. They would have no doubt have come running and thus mucked up his plan for them to be in the house at the time. 


[/ QUOTE ]

My understanding is that the police believe the family to have been shot first. 

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my understanding too


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## MotherOfChickens (2 September 2008)

I cant believe how much people seem to be enjoying the drama, imagining how things happened


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## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I cant believe how much people seem to be enjoying the drama, imagining how things happened 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

That Sirena always enjoys blood and gore.
I only wish there were more decent people like you, who'd stay out of nasty threads like this.
S


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## Tia (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
as several people have said, mental illness does not mean evil. 


[/ QUOTE ] 
Yes and evil does not mean mental illness.  Just as kindness does not mean mental illness.  Just as compassion does not mean mental illness.

Face it; in life there are good people and bad people - he was bad in my opinion.


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## MotherOfChickens (2 September 2008)

QR has alot to answer for. you are very clever arent you.


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## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
QR has alot to answer for. you are very clever arent you. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally, the insult is 'clever and evil'.
Do try harder  
	
	
		
		
	


	




S


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## JM07 (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I cant believe how much people seem to be enjoying the drama, imagining how things happened 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]


just wait till the funeral...i can imagine it now..... will be very "Diana"...with national outpouring of grief, flowers thrown at every corner........

with people talking about it, making doumentaries, conspericies, claims, counter claims, court cases....ooo, at least in ten years time....


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## MotherOfChickens (2 September 2008)

didnt want to flatter too much


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## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
didnt want to flatter too much 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

If you are frightened I will become conceited, I think you're shutting the stable door after the horse has been shot.
S


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## brighteyes (2 September 2008)

Just back in from jobs...... humane would have been consulting everything and everyone about their desire to be shot and burned, not making that decision on behalf of at least those animals.

Whoever thinks people on here are getting off on imagining all the scenarios which led to this - well, I'm just glad most folks are baffled and horrified and sickened.  Mulling over they whys and wherefores are a normal way of trying to assemble the mess into something which might make sense.  It won't, of course.

That was a QR


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## hotellie (2 September 2008)

well said Tia
not saying mr foster was evil or mentally ill as i dont know him
but some people are evil and some are mentally ill and both can commit these atrocities and are thus very bad humans.


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## teapot (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One of the reasons he would have shot the horses &amp; dogs is that once the fire had started in the stable block (which judging by the photos was seperate to the house) the noise they would have made would have alerted the wife and daugther. They would have no doubt have come running and thus mucked up his plan for them to be in the house at the time. 


[/ QUOTE ]

My understanding is that the police believe the family to have been shot first. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooooooo didn't know that! Ignore me then  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Either way, it shouldn't have happened


----------



## JM07 (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
maybe i've watched "murder she wrote" too often, but...



"he" put a silencer on the gun, shot the daughter/wife..

went outside, shot the 3 horses/dogs, drove horsebox to end of drive, blocked drive, walked back, set fire to garage and stables....walked to house, chucked the dogs inside, baracaded doors, set fire to house, then when all was well alight, went to his wife and shot himself...

my 50pence worth... 

[/ QUOTE ]

my 50 pence worth is looking pretty good, then


----------



## jacks_mum (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 humane would have been consulting everything and everyone about their desire to be shot and burned, not making that decision on behalf of at least those animals.



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't recall consulting either my cats, my rats, my gerbils or my horse before I had them PTS.  Or are you saying you should only consult your animals if you are going to shoot and burn them? Better contact the knacker man and vets to make sure all the clients they have that have their animals shot and then cremated have consulted the animals first and talked it through with them. If that's the only humane way to do it.


----------



## mickey (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
QR Haven't read all of this post, but I do think it is pointless trying to understand why he did this, that, or the other, without a consultant's view. Also equally pointless trying to treat his actions (with hate, rage etc) as if he were right in his head. I personally think the only people fit to judge why he committed this crime and whether his sickness meant he was not able to feel a sense of right or wrong at the time are PSYCHIATRISTS. We are wasting our time speculating or stating that he was 'evil'. 

[/ QUOTE ]


I think it is pointless of you to comment on how pointless it is for us to consider whether he is sane or not.  I am not sure I even accept your point that only PSYCHIATRISTS (why SHOUT?) are the only people fit to judge. 
I think only psychiatrists, sorry PSYCHIATRISTS, are fit to judge whether there is any point in your considering our  contributions pointless, too.
But that doesn't seem to have stopped you.
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Although I am almost lost in this - I am a bit dim sometimes!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 -I do believe that this post is personally very insulting. I do not need a psychistrist to analyse what I have just said - Please do not compare me to a man that has just murdered his family.


----------



## kerilli (2 September 2008)

that's nice and sarky. congratulations. 
Presumably most people, including you, only have animals pts when they are elderly, or ill, or in pain, not just to suit themselves because they've decided to check out of life today...


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## jacks_mum (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 that's nice and sarky. congratulations. 

[/ QUOTE ]

You recognised it. Good.


----------



## Flame_ (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



I think it is pointless of you to comment on how pointless it is for us to consider whether he is sane or not.  I am not sure I even accept your point that only PSYCHIATRISTS (why SHOUT?) are the only people fit to judge. 
I think only psychiatrists, sorry PSYCHIATRISTS, are fit to judge whether there is any point in your considering our  contributions pointless, too.
But that doesn't seem to have stopped you.
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Although I am almost lost in this - I am a bit dim sometimes!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 -I do believe that this post is personally very insulting. I do not need a psychistrist to analyse what I have just said - Please do not compare me to a man that has just murdered his family. 
	
	
		
		
	


	









[/ QUOTE ]

Congratulations Shils, you have totally baffled another one.


----------



## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
QR Haven't read all of this post, but I do think it is pointless trying to understand why he did this, that, or the other, without a consultant's view. Also equally pointless trying to treat his actions (with hate, rage etc) as if he were right in his head. I personally think the only people fit to judge why he committed this crime and whether his sickness meant he was not able to feel a sense of right or wrong at the time are PSYCHIATRISTS. We are wasting our time speculating or stating that he was 'evil'. 

[/ QUOTE ]


I think it is pointless of you to comment on how pointless it is for us to consider whether he is sane or not.  I am not sure I even accept your point that only PSYCHIATRISTS (why SHOUT?) are the only people fit to judge. 
I think only psychiatrists, sorry PSYCHIATRISTS, are fit to judge whether there is any point in your considering our  contributions pointless, too.
But that doesn't seem to have stopped you.
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Although I am almost lost in this - I am a bit dim sometimes!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 -I do believe that this post is personally very insulting. I do not need a psychistrist to analyse what I have just said - Please do not compare me to a man that has just murdered his family. 
	
	
		
		
	


	









[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I couldn't possibly; as I explained only a PSYCHIATRIST at consultant level would be qualified to compare you and ascertain whether you/he are evil.  Given that you personally think the only people fit to judge why he committed this crime and whether his sickness meant he was not able to feel a sense of right or wrong at the time are PSYCHIATRISTS, I find it interesting (although again perhaps pointless) that you are keen NOT to be compared to him, which would suggest that you certainly have judged him; if this was not so, then you would be neutral about the suggestion of the comparison, (however pointless in the eyes of PSYCHIATRISTS)
Don't you agree?
S


----------



## brighteyes (2 September 2008)

*_blinks_*


----------



## mickey (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
QR Haven't read all of this post, but I do think it is pointless trying to understand why he did this, that, or the other, without a consultant's view. Also equally pointless trying to treat his actions (with hate, rage etc) as if he were right in his head. I personally think the only people fit to judge why he committed this crime and whether his sickness meant he was not able to feel a sense of right or wrong at the time are PSYCHIATRISTS. We are wasting our time speculating or stating that he was 'evil'. 

[/ QUOTE ]


I think it is pointless of you to comment on how pointless it is for us to consider whether he is sane or not.  I am not sure I even accept your point that only PSYCHIATRISTS (why SHOUT?) are the only people fit to judge. 
I think only psychiatrists, sorry PSYCHIATRISTS, are fit to judge whether there is any point in your considering our  contributions pointless, too.
But that doesn't seem to have stopped you.
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

*Forgot to say - Above - Seems to be a discrepancy??? - **I am not sure I even accept your point that only PSYCHIATRISTS (why SHOUT?) are the only people fit to judge. *** 
***I think only psychiatrists, sorry PSYCHIATRISTS, are fit to judge whether there is any point in your considering our  contributions pointless, too.*** 

*So one minute you think psych are not the only people qualified to judge and the next you think they ARE the only people to judge?* 

Although I am almost lost in this - I am a bit dim sometimes!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 -I do believe that this post is personally very insulting. I do not need a psychistrist to analyse what I have just said - Please do not compare me to a man that has just murdered his family. 
	
	
		
		
	


	









[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I couldn't possibly; as I explained only a PSYCHIATRIST at consultant level would be qualified to compare you and ascertain whether you/he are evil.   [/b]  Given that you personally think the only people fit to judge why he committed this crime and whether his sickness meant he was not able to feel a sense of right or wrong at the time are PSYCHIATRISTS, I find it interesting (although again perhaps pointless) that you are keen NOT to be compared to him, which would suggest that you certainly have judged him; if this was not so, then you would be neutral about the suggestion of the comparison, (however pointless in the eyes of PSYCHIATRISTS)
Don't you agree?   *****I have not judged him, but I do know the facts as publicised. I said that I thought the best people/person to give a qualified opinion on that man's mental state at the time of the incident were PSYCHIATRISTS (losing my voice now, need to fetch a foghorn prompto). This man, as we have established, committed several murders. His state of mind thus would warrant expert attention???? I did not murder animals and people, thus I do not see that I require that attention. It is irrelevant (and quite possibly pointless.........to make that comparison). ****** Bloody hell - The plot thickens. Better stop that flow of white wine at once.


----------



## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
QR Haven't read all of this post, but I do think it is pointless trying to understand why he did this, that, or the other, without a consultant's view. Also equally pointless trying to treat his actions (with hate, rage etc) as if he were right in his head. I personally think the only people fit to judge why he committed this crime and whether his sickness meant he was not able to feel a sense of right or wrong at the time are PSYCHIATRISTS. We are wasting our time speculating or stating that he was 'evil'. 

[/ QUOTE ]


I think it is pointless of you to comment on how pointless it is for us to consider whether he is sane or not.  I am not sure I even accept your point that only PSYCHIATRISTS (why SHOUT?) are the only people fit to judge. 
I think only psychiatrists, sorry PSYCHIATRISTS, are fit to judge whether there is any point in your considering our  contributions pointless, too.
But that doesn't seem to have stopped you.
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

*Forgot to say - Above - Seems to be a discrepancy??? - **I am not sure I even accept your point that only PSYCHIATRISTS (why SHOUT?) are the only people fit to judge. *** 
***I think only psychiatrists, sorry PSYCHIATRISTS, are fit to judge whether there is any point in your considering our  contributions pointless, too.*** 

*So one minute you think psych are not the only people qualified to judge and the next you think they ARE the only people to judge?* 
 <font color="blue"> Initially I was uncertain, but after reading the quality of your argument, I became utterly convinced. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 </font> 
Although I am almost lost in this - I am a bit dim sometimes!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 -I do believe that this post is personally very insulting. I do not need a psychistrist to analyse what I have just said - Please do not compare me to a man that has just murdered his family. 
	
	
		
		
	


	









[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I couldn't possibly; as I explained only a PSYCHIATRIST at consultant level would be qualified to compare you and ascertain whether you/he are evil.   [/b]  Given that you personally think the only people fit to judge why he committed this crime and whether his sickness meant he was not able to feel a sense of right or wrong at the time are PSYCHIATRISTS, I find it interesting (although again perhaps pointless) that you are keen NOT to be compared to him, which would suggest that you certainly have judged him; if this was not so, then you would be neutral about the suggestion of the comparison, (however pointless in the eyes of PSYCHIATRISTS)
Don't you agree?   *****I have not judged him, but I do know the facts as publicised. I said that I thought the best people/person to give a qualified opinion on that man's mental state at the time of the incident were PSYCHIATRISTS (losing my voice now, need to fetch a foghorn prompto). This man, as we have established, committed several murders. His state of mind thus would warrant expert attention???? I did not murder animals and people, thus I do not see that I require that attention. It is irrelevant (and quite possibly pointless.........to make that comparison). ****** Bloody hell - The plot thickens. Better stop that flow of white wine at once. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]
 <font color="blue"> By several murders, I assume you mean two?   I appreciate that consultant PSYCHIATRISTS (cough, cough - why do we shout that?) are important to ascertain his state of mind, at the time he was on his killing and burning spree.  As a rank amateur, however, I feel able to speculate that he was feeling a little overtired, at the very least.
May I refer you again to your point which stated 'We are wasting our time speculating'.... 
	
	
		
		
	


	




S 
	
	
		
		
	


	




</font>


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## mickey (2 September 2008)

The only speculating I have done is to predict that the best people to assess motives/state of mind are PSYCHIATRISTS. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I use uppercase because of their undoubted importance and superiority. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




I included the animals as well as people when I said 'several'.


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## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
The only speculating I have done is to predict that the best people to assess motives/state of mind are PSYCHIATRISTS. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I use uppercase because of their undoubted importance and superiority. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




I included the animals as well as people when I said 'several'. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, my cousin is a CONSULTANT and certainly always uses capitals when writing or speaking of himself (seriously  
	
	
		
		
	


	




) so I understand your point regarding PSYCHIATRISTS.
I don't like to be pedantic but (ok, I do 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 ) technically, however, I don't believe animals can be 'murdered', perhaps only killed...otherwise flyswatters and waspslayers might face lengthy terms...
S


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## brighteyes (2 September 2008)

I was going to question if several murders included the animals - or has this madman been at it before?  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  Far as I know, shooting three horses and four dogs - all presumably in good health - is legal, and in some people's eyes humane.


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## RagazzoSam (2 September 2008)

Personally I wouldn't rely on a psychiatrist to assess state of mind of anyone, having met one who seemed less sane than moi.

Speculating about this horrendous slaughter (even if it was by rifle) is surely part of human nature. So too, is getting hot under the collar about the waste of life, the perceived arrogance of the man etc etc.

Nothing we write on this forum will bring back those lost lives.


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## jacks_mum (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 As a rank amateur, however, I feel able to speculate that he was feeling a little overtired, at the very least 

[/ QUOTE ]

Shilasdair 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 please behave yourself


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## brighteyes (2 September 2008)

Yeah, somebody spank her...........


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## jacks_mum (2 September 2008)

She is simply incorrigable(sp?)


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## Shilasdair (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
She is simply incorrigable(sp?) 

[/ QUOTE ]

Corrugated?
S


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## jacks_mum (2 September 2008)

what metal and bent?


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## brighteyes (2 September 2008)

Well, I know one of her legs is tin.


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## jacks_mum (2 September 2008)

PMSL


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## brighteyes (2 September 2008)

Jacks_Mum thinks you are  'A lighter-than-air craft that can be steered and propelled through the air'


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## mickey (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only speculating I have done is to predict that the best people to assess motives/state of mind are PSYCHIATRISTS. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I use uppercase because of their undoubted importance and superiority. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




I included the animals as well as people when I said 'several'. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, my cousin is a CONSULTANT and certainly always uses capitals when writing or speaking of himself (seriously  
	
	
		
		
	


	




) so I understand your point regarding PSYCHIATRISTS.
I don't like to be pedantic but (ok, I do 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 ) technically, however, I don't believe animals can be 'murdered', perhaps only killed...otherwise flyswatters and waspslayers might face lengthy terms...
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Well this is interesting. I had never really considered whether killing an animal was murder or not. What is the difference between murder and killing, in particular, when referring to animals? Anyone got any definitions??


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## The Virgin Dubble (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
One of the reasons he would have shot the horses &amp; dogs is that once the fire had started in the stable block (which judging by the photos was seperate to the house) the noise they would have made would have alerted the wife and daugther. They would have no doubt have come running and thus mucked up his plan for them to be in the house at the time. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Jill and Kirstie were killed before he slaughtered the animals.

He could have let the horses go without detection.


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## Sooty (2 September 2008)

Yes, but someone else may have in some way benefitted from them. That would never do.


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## The Virgin Dubble (2 September 2008)

QR:

You know what?
I really don't CARE if Chris Foster was pushed to the edge / distraught / stark raving bonkers. 
He lost the right to my sympathy when he blew away his fifteen year old daughter.

This is about a man not only killing himself and his family, but systematically destroying EVERYTHING he considered to be HIS.

He didn't lose his mind and rampage about with a gun, killing all and sundry. He didn't direct his anger at himself, or his creditors, or the population in general. He selected what he considered to be his possessions alone. Nothing else.

The ultimate control freak imho.


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## Flame_ (2 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

 What is the difference between murder and killing, in particular, when referring to animals? Anyone got any definitions?? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Murder - The act of putting a PERSON to death, intentionally and unlawfully

Kill - To cause the death of, to slay, to destroy

To murder is always to kill. To kill is not always to murder.


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## Puppy (3 September 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Murder - The act of putting a PERSON to death, intentionally and unlawfully

Kill - To cause the death of, to slay, to destroy

To murder is always to kill. To kill is not always to murder.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to C&amp;P, but as I put in SB earlier...

Murder requires a specific mens rea (Acting with the intention to kill, or in a manner that either intentionally causes, or recklessly risks, very serious harm) with no legal defence. 

Self defence and diminished responsibility are partial defences that reduce the charge of murder to manslaughter. 

Diminished responsibility is basically pleading insanity (which is not the same legally as it is medically, and therefore a surprising number of killers don't like to do... 
	
	
		
		
	


	




). 

To be successful in pleading such a defence, the killer must prove that they were unaware in the circumstances, of (1) the true circumstances (i.e they were so mentally disturbed that thought they were killing aliens not people!!), or (2) unaware that what they were doing at the time was wrong (i.e they didn't think it was wrong to kill), (or it can also be pled that at the time time of trial they are now in a state of diminished responsibility where they don't understand the proceedings so should be hospitalised rather than imprisoned). 

To me the actions of Mr Foster; killing his wife and daughter (as said, to have done so to both of them in different parts of the house, means in great likelihood with a silencer), but then not immediately kill himself, but to then go onto block the gates to the property with the horsebox AND shooting out the tyres, followed by killing the horses, dogs, and other pets so systematically - including moving the bodies, spreading accelerant around such huge grounds and the cars, so as to start three fires, ALL indicate to me that this was not rash, and it was more than flipping out, or even a couple of mad hours of actions 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I totally agree that the likelihood was that he had this planned BEFORE the happy BBQ pics, as he's already made up his mind and wanted them to have one more last night before the balliffs came. I don't think that the timing is coincidental, and I think this was carefully planned. 

IMO, Mr Foster is indeed a murderer - and not legally excusable for his actions, albeit he must have had a certain mindset to act in such an evil manner. 

I find it all so sad for the friends and family of those effected


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## antiantianti (3 September 2008)

There ends the case for the prosecution


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## Puppy (3 September 2008)

Why thank you!


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