# flat footed horses, help!!!



## ticobay831 (17 July 2011)

Hi there
my horse was xrayed last year and he was found to be flat footed the farrier is currantly taking off his toes to encourage his heels to grow down to allow more depth in the sole.
Trouble is vet said it will take about 2 years before theres any if any improvement, he is msuch better but he is terrible on stoney ground, as the roads are herendous round by me we have stated riding on a bridle way but its so stoney and he really struggles walking on it.

I have got some easyboot gloves which he had before he had shoes put on the only think i can think of is to put them on over his shoes to help protect his feet abit, they do actually fit over the shoe, so shouldnt be a problem, any one else have the same problem and if so how do you cope with it, any ideasnhow to help would be greatly appriciated  :-/


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## MillionDollar (17 July 2011)

What sort of shoes is he in?

Mine is also very flat footed (in Xrays) so is in Egg Bars, but Heart bars may also help yours more. You could also have leather pads put under the shoes (helped a great deal with my WB).

Who is your farrier? I'm in South Warwickshire so PM me if you need a recommendation for a farrier as there are a few fab ones that come to my yard.


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## cptrayes (17 July 2011)

What diet do you have him on? Many flat footed horses are getting more sugar/carbohydrates than they can cope with. He needs a high fibre low sugar diet, which might include heavily restricting the amount of grass that he eats. You also need to balance his minerals but at the very least you should be feeding about 25 grammes of Magnesium oxide (available on eBay or from a farm supplies as calmag at £9 for 25 kilos!) If he was already on a low sugar high fibre diet with strict grass controls, then you need to look further at mineral balances that there may be in your gazing/forage or possible Insulin Resistance or other metabolic disease.

You really need to stop walking him on stones unprotected until he can cope. It's not fair for him to be in pain and it could cause bruising and abscesses if you carry on. 

If you were able to get his shoes off again and give him the right diet, his flat footedness would probably be fixed in a quarter of the time your farrier is going to take in shoes. I understand that would mean you having to protect him from stones and probably not ride much to start with, but you can't ride him properly in shoes now, so it's swings and roundabouts. 

If he must stay in shoes, he sounds to me like you need pads until you have his diet right and he has grown some thicker soles.


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## Snowysadude (17 July 2011)

mines been in eggbars, heartbars but never barefoot, with the riding you would think that would wear the heel down more (no expert here!). Friend put boots on to ride her horse when it had abcesses so had to go barefoot - that helped when horse was sound!


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## tallyho! (17 July 2011)

you should take a look at rockleyfarm.blogspot as they have some amazing cases including flatfooted tb horses. should never take two years... 6 months. there's more than one way to remedy the situation


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## ticobay831 (17 July 2011)

Hes on high fibre diet and hasnt got access to allot of gras i am very carefull.

he is loads better than he was last year on the roads but as i said as the roads are quite dangerous we rode down the bridle path today and he struggled allot more than i thought he would, i will no way take him there again with out the easy boots on.
I am very carefull not to walk him on stones but didnt realise therwould be so many on the path till i got there..:-/

I really cant see how diet will help, his pedal bone is rotated upwards so the distance between the sole is less than a horse with normal feet, i research everything if he has any problem so i can do the best for him and his diet is good.

I have a very good well known farrier and he said his feet have improved allot, he is just in rolled toes, advised by the vet.  I asked about pads a fewmonths ago and he said that they can cause other problems like stones and mud getting under them..   :-/

he was barefoot as a youngster but couldnt cope without shoes once he started doing a bit of road work, long story but he needed shoes...

Hes my pride and joy and i just want him to be happy, he so enjoys going out


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## ticobay831 (17 July 2011)

Thanks tallyho ill go have a look


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## tallyho! (17 July 2011)

If his pedal bone is rotating upwards - how is rolling the toes going to help?? He should be trying to grow the heels.... and sole which is very difficult in shoes because growth needs stimulus - boots offer that stimulus - even if you took shoes off and turned him away on grass for 6 months that would be enough stimulation for things to change. I'm all for letting nature do the work for me so I don't have to.


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## amandap (17 July 2011)

cptrayes said:



			What diet do you have him on? Many flat footed horses are getting more sugar/carbohydrates than they can cope with. He needs a high fibre low sugar diet, which might include heavily restricting the amount of grass that he eats.
		
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I wholeheartedly agree here. My tb's hooves totally collapsed (again) after a period of 24/7 turnout. I yarded her and have given soaked hay since (three months plus now) and her hooves have changed shape dramatically... 
I took drastic action because she has a history of severe cracks and they were returning. I am now trying to sort out minerals in detail along with gut support.


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## ticobay831 (17 July 2011)

farrier is trying to grow the heels down but he said hes not going to grow that much heel, he said the rolled toes will help his heel to grow down  :-/

I really dont know what to do im just taking advise from vet and farrier, after all youd think theyd know best, but im sure there must be somthing else i can do hense my post, im just not that knowledgable enough to argue with either  :-(

So i need to get my facts right befor i discuss it with either of them.


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## amandap (17 July 2011)

Have a look at this pic of underun heels. The red line showing the heel angle also actually shows the length of the heel, it's just grown flat and under the hoof as the toe has grown flat and forward. I just found the first pic on a search to show you for you to see if your horses heels are actually underun rather than short.
http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/health/hoof_care/underrun-heels/


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## Miss L Toe (17 July 2011)

You should be aware that we on this forum are not best placed to advise.

This has been going on for over a year now, X-rays showed an abnormality [both feet?], I .... I would  ask for X-rays to be sent to a Newmarket [world class] expert, local vet is not dealing with this every day. 
It would be useful to get a new set of X-rays to find out what is happening. 

Tbh I would be surprised if the horse was not uncomfortable all the time.
You could send her to Rockley, it might work out cheaper in the end, worth while talking to them to see if they have had success with similar cases.

If I were you, I would read Feet First, remove the shoes, and keep her in a yard with deep bark, change the diet and the management. I would not ride her, but take her out to build up the health of the hoof. 
Possibly she will never come right.
AND
You should be aware that we on this forum are not best placed to advise.


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## muff747 (18 July 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			You should be aware that we on this forum are not best placed to advise.

This has been going on for over a year now, X-rays showed an abnormality [both feet?], I .... I would  ask for X-rays to be sent to a Newmarket [world class] expert, local vet is not dealing with this every day. 
It would be useful to get a new set of X-rays to find out what is happening. 

Tbh I would be surprised if the horse was not uncomfortable all the time.
You could send her to Rockley, it might work out cheaper in the end, worth while talking to them to see if they have had success with similar cases.

If I were you, I would read Feet First, remove the shoes, and keep her in a yard with deep bark, change the diet and the management. I would not ride her, but take her out to build up the health of the hoof. 
Possibly she will never come right.
AND
You should be aware that we on this forum are not best placed to advise.
		
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Only the owner can decide what direction to take but she is asking for ideas as to which direction so she can make that decision.
My advice echos the barefoot route.  I found out that nailing iron shoes onto my TB's feet did great harm to them.  That became so obvious when I had them removed five years ago and I saw the complete transformation of the shape, back to how they should be, rather than the deformed shape they had become in shoes.
It only took six months for that complete transformation in shape, but they did carry on getting better and better for the next 12 months.
If your horse is lame, you have nothing to lose. I decided to try it for 12 months and if it didn't work, I could put shoes back on. There's no way I would have nails driven into his beautiful feet now. Give it a go - but you need to fully commit to it because you can't say it didn't work if you only give it half a chance.  Good luck, you obviously want the best for your horse.


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## ticobay831 (18 July 2011)

Thanks muff, im going to get them xrayed again and have a chat with the vet later.
He isnt lame at the moment in fact hes never been better and is going really well, reallly striding out it just he found the stones a bit of a problem yesterday, i only tend to hack at weekends when the traffic is quieter.
Thanks for all your advise.. x


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## Miss L Toe (18 July 2011)

ticobay831 said:



			farrier is trying to grow the heels down but he said hes not going to grow that much heel, he said the rolled toes will help his heel to grow down  :-/

I really dont know what to do im just taking advise from vet and farrier, after all youd think theyd know best, but im sure there must be somthing else i can do hense my post, im just not that knowledgable enough to argue with either  :-(

So i need to get my facts right befor i discuss it with either of them.
		
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That bit about getting heels to "grow down" just does not seem right, maybe he meant the allow the heels to develop, but they have had a year to get this right,  so it is not working.
I don't think that totally supporting the hoof wall, the heels and the frog with a metal crampon [egg bar type shoes] is going to allow any part of the foot to develop, it gives temporary support.
I am not sure why the pedal bone has rotated upwards. or when, it would seem to place extreme strain on deep Digital Flexor Tendon.
When my horse [perfect front feet] was tried in New Balance shoes as advocated by A World Class Farrier[AWCF}, I felt as though his feet were tilted upwards [when riding him], I felt that this placed a strain on the ligaments and tendons and the shoes were abandoned. The farrier's argument was that over a lifetime the horse had to wear down the toes of normal shoes, this being the equivalent of so many inches of steel.
My other farrier [I have moved my horse around] rarely uses other than normal shoes and told me that the first farrier was making a good income from these NB shoes, and he is not the type to bi@tch.
If you have a look at good feet they have a developed digital pad behind, and this will not develop if the area is covered with steel.
You could ask about spiral shoes, these are used at the vet school by the AWCF and don't seem as extreme as the eggbar type.
Have a look ar the hind feet of pinbal's horse, that to me is a real good foot, pity w e can't see the front ones, but in my experience with TB's [hundreds of National Hunt ones] they mostly have good feet [cue a storm of protest] due to good feed, good exercise on a variety of surfaces, and regular shoeing by an experienced farrier. 
I only remember two that were shod by "remedial farriers", and they still had bad feet at the end of it.


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## cptrayes (19 July 2011)

I haven't seen it of course, but I would be gobsmacked if this horse's pedal bone has "rotated" upwards. There is no force that would make it do that, is there? Someone please correct me if there is. Surely, what is FAR more likely is that it has collapsed heels which has dropped the back, not that the front has somehow magically risen? 

The only surefire way I know to rebuild collapsed heels is to get him working on the right surfaces with no shoes on.  It ain't going to get there by cutting off the toe, surely?


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## Jennyharvey (19 July 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I haven't seen it of course, but I would be gobsmacked if this horse's pedal bone has "rotated" upwards. There is no force that would make it do that, is there? Someone please correct me if there is. Surely, what is FAR more likely is that it has collapsed heels which has dropped the back, not that the front has somehow magically risen? 

The only surefire way I know to rebuild collapsed heels is to get him working on the right surfaces with no shoes on.  It ain't going to get there by cutting off the toe, surely?
		
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I actually have a client with a horse with the pedal bone rotated upwards at the front.  Its a very obese horse, obviously has issues with laminitis, so owner is trying to get horse healthy internally before shoes come off again.  

Ive not seen radiographs, only a diagram vet drew as he didnt give the radiographs to the owner.  Only thing i can think of that would cause this is laminitis, or some other kind of unnatural strain somewhere inside the hoof.  

Op, def be worth while really looking at diet, getting out anything with sugar or mollases, as it sounds like your horse has low grade lami.  As others have stated.  This would make the soles very tender, whether in shoes or without.  For me, boots and pads would be the best for this horse, and allow the foot to heal itself, internally and externally.


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## hayinamanger (19 July 2011)

Keratex hoof hardener painted all over the sole is great for this type of hoof, cut out all molassed feed, put on high fibre, seaweed & biotin, calcined magnesite.  Xrays to find out exactly what's going on in there, followed by careful trimming to restore hoof pastern axis.  Sorry if all this has been already said.


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## cptrayes (19 July 2011)

Jennyharvey said:



			I actually have a client with a horse with the pedal bone rotated upwards at the front.  Its a very obese horse, obviously has issues with laminitis, so owner is trying to get horse healthy internally before shoes come off again.  

Ive not seen radiographs, only a diagram vet drew as he didnt give the radiographs to the owner.  Only thing i can think of that would cause this is laminitis, or some other kind of unnatural strain somewhere inside the hoof.
		
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Jenny do you mean that the tip of the pedal bone (P3 as vets call it) is closer to the outside of the hoof wall than the top of the pedal bone?  I can see how the whole foot can be tilted so that the coffin bone is "negative angle". That's not uncommon, and caused by flat heels. But I'd love to understand what could cause the pedal bone to change angle to tilt upwards inside the foot. The pull is in the other direction, which is why they rotate away from the hoof wall downwards in a critical case of lami (and why they sometimes cut the tendon to treat it). Did the vet explain?


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## Pale Rider (19 July 2011)

I broadly agree with the sentiments expressed by cptrayes in this thread.

Shoeing causes the coffin bones and sensitive inner hoof structures to be surrounded, constricted and over-pressurized by the progressively-deforming hoof capsules, starving them of vital movement and circulation.

Eggbar shoes, pads, natural balance shoes, wedge pads, impression material, shoes with rails and/or frog inserts, or any other artificial appliance nailed to the hoof of the horse, is not therapeutic for the horse. 
I do not believe there is a single case of a horse that has been cured by the application of an appliance to the hoof, apart from a broken bone injury.

Therapeutic shoeing or corrective shoeing is in fact an oxymoron.

Obviously, I would suggest that you take your horse down the barefoot route as this is the only real way to redress the state of the horses hooves and will lead to a long productive life in any sphere you choose.


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## Tinypony (19 July 2011)

How difficult for you, good on you for doing the best for your horse.  Have you considered speaking to Rockley Farm just for a second opinion?  Maybe they would have a look at the xrays.  It seems to me as if you are on a long road, hopefully to recovery, with the farrier.  So why not consider a different course of action?
I'm with cptrayes on this, as usual, particularly re diet.


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## Jennyharvey (19 July 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Jenny do you mean that the tip of the pedal bone (P3 as vets call it) is closer to the outside of the hoof wall than the top of the pedal bone?  I can see how the whole foot can be tilted so that the coffin bone is "negative angle". That's not uncommon, and caused by flat heels. But I'd love to understand what could cause the pedal bone to change angle to tilt upwards inside the foot. The pull is in the other direction, which is why they rotate away from the hoof wall downwards in a critical case of lami (and why they sometimes cut the tendon to treat it). Did the vet explain?
		
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Im not too sure, as ive not seen the x rays nor spoken to the vet.  I know what you mean tho.  I would love to see the xrays so i know what exactly is going on.
As far as i know its at a negative angle, but in terms of the dorsal angle in relation to the wall, im not too sure.  

Maybe that is what the op means tho, a negative dorsal angle of P3?


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## cptrayes (20 July 2011)

I think that might be what she means. If so, it's a different ball game than laminar detachment, and much easier to manage, if the horse can be given sufficient stimulation to the back half of its foot to make it rebuild the digital cushion and strenthen the lateral cartilages.


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