# Stabled horses and the Animal Welfare Act...your thoughts??



## SatansLittleHelper (23 February 2015)

Just musing really but I wondered what people's thoughts are on horses that spend a lot of time stabled in relation to the AWA 2006.
It states that the horse must have "appropriate company" and be able to "express normal behaviours". So how does this fit in with horses who are kept stabled for a good proportion of the day? Obviously they are far from able to express normal behaviours and are alone??
I'm not stable bashing or anything like that, just genuinely curious


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## SpringArising (23 February 2015)

So how does this fit in with horses who are kept stabled for a good proportion of the day?
		
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It doesn't, and that's why a heck of a lot of horses who are kept in for long periods of time throughout the day develop stable vices and OCD behaviours.


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## ljohnsonsj (23 February 2015)

I don't think they class as 'alone' when on a yard, they can all see one and other so I wouldn't class that as 'alone' personally, as even when mine are out they are in individual paddocks, so technically alone but they are surrounded by horses. My horses are stabled all the time at the min due to the awful weather and the fields being drenched, but they get turned out in the school on a night and rode when I go down, so get to go and have a blast around the school to let off some steam, which is 'experssing normal behaviours' although not in a natural environment... I don't think that Act is very applicable in this day and age.


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## Pearlsasinger (23 February 2015)

Not all stabled horses are alone.  Some actually share their stable with another, others have a partial wall between them and their neighbour, still others are kept in a barn system.  I like ours to spend as much time as possible in the field but if weather dictates that they must stop in, at least they can interact with their neighbours, over the walls, which is no less than those horses which graze in individual paddocks.  So not ideal but acceptable imo although I would not want that to be their only opportunity for interaction, when ours go out they are in shared fields.  Roll on summer when they can spend all their time outside with company.


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## SpringArising (23 February 2015)

ljohnsonsj said:



			I don't think that Act is very applicable in this day and age.
		
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Why not?


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## Thriller (23 February 2015)

The law states that, but does not state how long for. It can mean that it must get out an hour a day, or 15mins or 10  hours. There is no law on that because they know full well that it can not be a) appropriate for all horses b) policed at all. Hence just the suggestion that it should be able to. Also, company can be a human or any other animal. There are many lone horses about and it is not against the law to keep a horse alone.


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## ljohnsonsj (23 February 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Why not?
		
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Because how can it apply to every single horse. Competition horses for example, that are stabled majority of the time and get turned out in their own paddock. Their welfare is still obviously important to owners/grooms and they are kept better than majority of 'everyday' horses although if you just grouped it under this act, it would suggest that they aren't getting what they are supposed to be. (Wording isn't brill, i know what I mean but wasn't sure how to word it!)


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## Queenbee (23 February 2015)

ljohnsonsj said:



			Because how can it apply to every single horse. Competition horses for example, that are stabled majority of the time and get turned out in their own paddock. Their welfare is still obviously important to owners/grooms and they are kept better than majority of 'everyday' horses although if you just grouped it under this act, it would suggest that they aren't getting what they are supposed to be. (Wording isn't brill, i know what I mean but wasn't sure how to word it!)
		
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But they are not getting what they are supposed to be getting.

Just because they have their own personal stable and their own personal field and are wrapped up in cotton woll, does NOT mean they are getting what they need.  They don't get the opportunity for social interaction.  I'm sorry but a competition horse is still just a horse and as such should have those basic needs met, just as any other horse should.

I'm not quite sure if people with competition horses believe their horse will melt if it lives in any way like a horse should, but if turnout and socialisation with other horses is good enough for carl jesters competition horses then I'm pretty sure it won't harm other competition horses either.


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## Scarlett (23 February 2015)

Queenbee said:



			But they are not getting what they are supposed to be getting.

Just because they have their own personal stable and their own personal field and are wrapped up in cotton woll, does NOT mean they are getting what they need.  They don't get the opportunity for social interaction.  I'm sorry but a competition horse is still just a horse and as such should have those basic needs met, just as any other horse should.
		
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Amen. I don't agree that a pampered competition horse is better looked after than a cob in field as part of a herd. A thick bed, big rugs and 3 feeds a day doesn't replace interaction with other horses, space to move about and freedom to be a horse - which they all are at the end of the day. Horses have been conditioned to adapt to the way they are now kept - doesn't mean it's good for them.

Other European countries have laws against horses being kept alone.


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## ljohnsonsj (23 February 2015)

Queenbee said:



			But they are not getting what they are supposed to be getting.

Just because they have their own personal stable and their own personal field and are wrapped up in cotton woll, does NOT mean they are getting what they need.  They don't get the opportunity for social interaction.  I'm sorry but a competition horse is still just a horse and as such should have those basic needs met, just as any other horse should.

I'm not quite sure if people with competition horses believe their horse will melt if it lives in any way like a horse should, but if turnout and socialisation with other horses is good enough for carl jesters competition horses then I'm pretty sure it won't harm other competition horses either.
		
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It isn't always a choice,many yards in my area only do individual turnout, they are next to each other and can groom each other over the fence, but can't actually get together. I personally don't think any horse either in a herd or turned out individually is any worse off than the other, as long as the said horse is happy and relaxed.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (23 February 2015)

I often wondered about the size of the stable, I have seen horses who have little choice but to stand diagonally. One would  think this would be something that could be in legislation.
How does this compare with legislation for zoo animals and poultry in cages, not sure, just asking.
Also, when I enforced dairy cow legislation the buildings had to be well ventilated, and natural lighting provided. This is not something that stables seem to consider. To keep animals in dark wet boxes with no outlook is not good husbandry, yet is seems to be allowed for horses. The stabling needs planning permission, should that not include these considerations if to be used for housing animals?


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## LittleRooketRider (23 February 2015)

Queenbee said:



			But they are not getting what they are supposed to be getting.

Just because they have their own personal stable and their own personal field and are wrapped up in cotton woll, does NOT mean they are getting what they need.  They don't get the opportunity for social interaction.  I'm sorry but a competition horse is still just a horse and as such should have those basic needs met, just as any other horse should.

I'm not quite sure if people with competition horses believe their horse will melt if it lives in any way like a horse should, but if turnout and socialisation with other horses is good enough for carl jesters competition horses then I'm pretty sure it won't harm other competition horses either.
		
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On another note..if a lot of male racehorses and showjumpers ar stallions it is not safe to have them tuned out with other horses, they may fight with other stallions or geldings or get mares in foal. Yes turnout with companionship is the IDEAL but this is not always possible. I agree it is best and think what CH does is brilliant but I certainly wouldn't class stabled competition horses as cruel.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (23 February 2015)

I am totally pro turnout, but there are risks, broken legs among them.
NH racehorses tend to have very busy lives, they also usually sleep rather a lot, so except for very few, they seem to be OK in stabling, they usually get three months off in a field every year.


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## SpringArising (23 February 2015)

A thick bed, big rugs and 3 feeds a day doesn't replace interaction with other horses, space to move about and freedom to be a horse
		
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			But they are not getting what they are supposed to be getting.

Just because they have their own personal stable and their own personal field and are wrapped up in cotton woll, does NOT mean they are getting what they need. They don't get the opportunity for social interaction. I'm sorry but a competition horse is still just a horse and as such should have those basic needs met, just as any other horse should.
		
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Absolutely agree. 

The most basic and fundamental thing any horse can have for their wellbeing and mental health is turnout and company. I despair at how long some horses are stabled for per day, and how their owners think it's completely fine and normal


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## Scatterbrain (23 February 2015)

If I were a horse I wouldn't want to be locked in a stable for any length of time. To me, that must feel similar to being locked up in a small utility room, enough room to lay down, get fed and watered, but what sort of quality of life is that? 
Competition horse or not, every horse should be given the opportunity to express themselves and interact with others with lots of turnout. My little herd live out 24/7 with access to their stables (doors pinned open) if and when they choose.
 I realise people on livery sometimes don't have the same freedom to choose this system, but at the very least they should ensure maximum turnout for their beloved horses.


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## Princess16 (23 February 2015)

What does make me laugh are those who feel the need to stable/rug up their horses at the slightest bit of rain! Mine is out 24/7 and even with access to field shelter chooses to stand outside come rain or shine or blizzards! It's what horses used to do and hence why they have their woolly coats in winter . They won't melt! I would rather see my boy running free in the rain than cooped up in a stable bored to death. Agree some horses are mollycoddled these days!

Obviously I'm not getting at those who don't have the advantage of any kind of turnout but I do find some people who choose to stable their horses tend to think they are giving their horses a better existence.


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## pennyturner (23 February 2015)

LittleRoodolphRider said:



			On another note..if a lot of male racehorses and showjumpers ar stallions it is not safe to have them tuned out with other horses, they may fight with other stallions or geldings or get mares in foal. Yes turnout with companionship is the IDEAL but this is not always possible. I agree it is best and think what CH does is brilliant but I certainly wouldn't class stabled competition horses as cruel.
		
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You need to visit my herd of stallions and geldings living out peacefully together.  Stallions turn out together rather well,  provided they've not been turned into mental cases by being stabled 24/7.


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## Lintel (23 February 2015)

Unfortunately we have 0 winter turnout so all my yards have been in since November. But I always ensure my boy is turned out in the school is free to roll and do horsey things, and that he has physical contact with another horse. I wouldn't go to a yard where individual turnout was I personally don't like it- although that be said my boy probably wouldn't care whether he was in a paddock full of horses or with none at all. He's quite the people horse!


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## Goldenstar (23 February 2015)

It's a bad act IMO 'freedom to express normal behaviours' in means of course ,perch to scratch that sort of thing but we encourage curtailment of reproductive freedom and of natural aggression , it's normal for male animals to fight , make a complete mockery of each of the five freedoms if you set out to.
Then what's normal if you a native  pony you could argue that 24/7 on a moor ( not much point of owning a pony in those conditions but that's natural living for them )
But a TB product of over three hundred year of selective breeding to run fast with no thought given to it being able to survive on it's own because people had a lot of imput into it's management , that's not so clear cut .
And then consider where 24/7 turned out horses are kept I am not at all sure the tiny mud filled paddocks I see on some yards are a good natural enviroment to live in and certainly they don't trump stabled with turnout and exercise .
Humans used to live in caves it was natural to us does not mean it's the best way to live now .


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (23 February 2015)

you have to dovetail the idea of the act,with why we have horses though................competition horses are part of an industry and have a job to do, their owners do not pay just to see them all happily mutual grooming in the field.

it is of course important to make each life as happy/healthy/natural as possible within the parameters of the horses intended use.

also as GS points out, all the people that smugly say "well my horses live out 24/7 so MUST be happier/more correctly kept than yours"................but actually have 4 ponies on a tiny mud pit with no shelter, need to think again!

i like mine to go out, but they go out in individual paddocks to minimise the risk of injury and are stabled overnight to allow better control of diet and fitness, which to my mind is an appropriate compromise.


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## SpringArising (23 February 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Humans used to live in caves it was natural to us does not mean it's the best way to live now .
		
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The thing is, though, we still have our freedom. We are still given a choice of where we live, who we live with and how we live. Horses aren't.


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## Queenbee (23 February 2015)

ljohnsonsj said:



			It isn't always a choice,many yards in my area only do individual turnout, they are next to each other and can groom each other over the fence, but can't actually get together. I personally don't think any horse either in a herd or turned out individually is any worse off than the other, as long as the said horse is happy and relaxed.
		
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don't get me wrong, I'm not against individual turnout.  Currently my boy is on individual and grooms over the fence with other horses and sometimes has a paddle around in the mud with his neighbour Toucan.  He's been a bit of a loner since he lost ebony so for him, it's fairly ideal... It's  not something I'd have been happy about with my other horses and if ebony were still alive they would be in together. However, my reference is more for those competition horses that are boxed the majority of the time and have minimal turnout, or even a horse kept in a field completely without company in some cases none and little to no opportunity for any interaction.


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## laura_nash (23 February 2015)

When I was at equine college (some 20 years ago) we all had to spend an hour in a small "stable", with no entertainment (i.e. no books etc).  It certainly makes you think about stabling and when it is appropriate.  

I now have a hairy cob who lives out 24/7, but I have known plenty of horses that wouldn't be happy with his current lifestyle, including some that were happier stabled in any bad weather (providing they had a large stable and other horses around them).


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## Queenbee (23 February 2015)

LittleRoodolphRider said:



			On another note..if a lot of male racehorses and showjumpers ar stallions it is not safe to have them tuned out with other horses, they may fight with other stallions or geldings or get mares in foal. Yes turnout with companionship is the IDEAL but this is not always possible. I agree it is best and think what CH does is brilliant but I certainly wouldn't class stabled competition horses as cruel.
		
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Bonkers2 said:



			I am totally pro turnout, but there are risks, broken legs among them.
NH racehorses tend to have very busy lives, they also usually sleep rather a lot, so except for very few, they seem to be OK in stabling, they usually get three months off in a field every year.
		
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I understand the reasoning behind it, and the belief that they are ok in stabling, however, when they leave their yard and go on to private homes, it would seem that in many cases they were not ok with their way of life, invariably there is a whole hornets nest of issues to resolve.  Not all of these are a direct result of over stabling, but I doubt that some of the issues would be quite so bad if they were managed differently with regards to turnout and socialisation. 

My point is not even about the physiological, it's about the mental state.  I'm pro turnout of course, but I also realise that as much as we are individuals so are horses, there are those die hard owners who would turn out 24/7 regardless just because it's how horses live in the wild.  My poor boy would break his heart... He loves to come in to his bed.  My point is more that, just because it suits owners to keep competition horses stabled the majority of their lives, we have a duty of care to think of the mental and emotional impact this has on the animal.  To some extent yes, we should try and enable them to live as a horse, for this is what they are.  We should respect that, I believe that in doing so we will get a better more healthy and productive animal, with less ailments, issues and vices.  It may be that vices and issues is a trade off that a competition home is happy to put up with, but personally, a lifestyle that may contribute to ulcers, weaving, cribbing, soundness or mental issues is not something that we as horse owners (leisure or competitive) should be happy to risk.  

It's very difficult, as I've already said, horses are individuals and so there is no one template that fits, saying a horse should have x amount of turnout, or turnout with a companion - may not suit some horses, and it may be completely impractical for the owner - but it should always be about what is best for the horse, to the best of our ability we should do whatever we can to meet the needs of the horse as an individual.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (23 February 2015)

Queenbee said:



			I understand the reasoning behind it, and the belief that they are ok in stabling, however, when they leave their yard and go on to private homes, it would seem that in many cases they were not ok with their way of life, invariably there is a whole hornets nest of issues to resolve.  Not all of these are a direct result of over stabling, but I doubt that some of the issues would be quite so bad if they were managed differently with regards to turnout and socialisation.
		
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The problem with ex racehorses very often is that the people who buy them don't have the facilities or the ability to work with them, this is the reason why  the various charities take racehorses in and re hab them.
We had one or two who who could never have gone on to be re habbed, we were often able to keep them in training, but in the end we did not send those ones to public auction sales. 
I am not wanting to get in to an argument about ex racehorses, just saying that a lot of people buy horses that are not suitable for them, often because they are cheap.
Some racehorses do get daily turnout, but most NH horses get more exercise than most happy hackers, they are out of the stable in the morning [60 - 90 mins and in the afternoon 20-25mins.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (23 February 2015)

PS  Some trainers do turn them out, I have worked in both types of yards and dont see any difference with the "happiness", in fact the ones that had no turnout were looked after better generally. I think that was general management being poor in the yard that did turnout: their horses were turned out whether they liked it or not, and some did not.


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## Annagain (23 February 2015)

I am very pro turnout. Mine get turned out every day for at least 10 hours and are out 24/7 for at least 7 months of the year. 

However, I think there are horses who cope with little turnout very well and even enjoy it. You have to judge each case on its mertis. My share horse is pretty anti-social. He's in a very settled herd of 6 geldings which hasn't changed for about 8 years (along with my horse who's in the middle of everything and is everybody's friend) but he's always on the fringes, doesn't like horses in 'his' space and interacts very rarely. I've seen him groom one of his fieldmates (the same one - an old, almost blind, very unthreatening boy) twice in 8 years.

When he was on 5 months box rest, he was happy as larry in a little pen in the corner of the field in the day and in his stable overnight (the others were stabled overnight too as it was winter). As he got ready to go back into the field, we gradually made his pen bigger and he spent more and more time in there (now spring so other horses out 24/7). When we put him back in the field, he spent the first three days trying to get back into his pen. He didn't want the others anywhere near him. He's actually scared of them which is why he doesn't want them near him. His herd have found a way to manage him, they leave him alone and he keeps out of trouble, but he would be totally happy on his own with just humans for company. 

Mine on the other hand...I'd have hm PTS rather than put him on box rest - even a couple of hours late for being turned out turns him from Victor Meldrew (grumpy but harmless) into Hannibal Lecter (psycho who wants to eat humans). I know he'd never settle so if he couldn't be fixed in the field, it's not something I'm prepared to put him through.


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## Loulou2002 (23 February 2015)

laura_nash said:



			When I was at equine college (some 20 years ago) we all had to spend an hour in a small "stable", with no entertainment (i.e. no books etc).  It certainly makes you think about stabling and when it is appropriate.
		
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My horses are a bit thick and cant read anyway! he he


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## Gloi (23 February 2015)

Maybe if the act was enforced then livery yards would have to be organised differently to fit in with the horse's needs. I think that problems with injuries during turnout are going to happen much more often when stabled horses are just turned out an hour a day to stretch their legs or where horses are turned out with different companions on a regular basis rather than when they have settled into a stable herd where everyone is sure of their position in the herd ranking.


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## Queenbee (23 February 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			The problem with ex racehorses very often is that the people who buy them don't have the facilities or the ability to work with them, this is the reason why  the various charities take racehorses in and re hab them.
We had one or two who who could never have gone on to be re habbed, we were often able to keep them in training, but in the end we did not send those ones to public auction sales. 
I am not wanting to get in to an argument about ex racehorses, just saying that a lot of people buy horses that are not suitable for them, often because they are cheap.
Some racehorses do get daily turnout, but most NH horses get more exercise than most happy hackers, they are out of the stable in the morning [60 - 90 mins and in the afternoon 20-25mins.
		
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  Don't get me wrong, I'm not against racing, or arguing against it, you are very correct, many people simply don't have the knowledge or the facilities to re-hab such horses, but this is just one factor, the fact is that many horses need rehabbing, there is a difference between rehab and retraining, all racehorses would need retraining, but rehabbing is dealing with physiological and yes sometimes behavioural issues that arise, not just from the racing but also from the way they have been kept.  It's commendable how stringent you have been about passing horses on, I only wish others would do the same, I was only talking last week to a trainer and discussing this silly issue - why do people feel that a horse has to go on to do a new job, for example Kauto Star, or even continue racing - Best Mate, why not find them a slot in a less pressurised situation Where they can continue their lifestyle in a less pressurised situation - for example as a nanny  on the gallops etc, of course not all horses can do this, but sometimes the expectation that these horses would be happier being pushed to do something else is a little bit bonkers to me (but then that's a whole different thread and I am digressing!)

With regards to the level of work that the horses do, being out in a field is not the same thing, to my mind just because a horse has done a significant amount of exercising does not mean that they should not have some turnout, a time to just be themselves, have. Good roll, eat some grass, buck and fart a bit, socialise if it's appropriate or possible, but to me, exercise, field time and stable time are three completely different things.


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## Arizahn (23 February 2015)

Mine live out 24/7, along with several others as a herd, and were last seen wandering off up the sheep trail into the gorse for the night. I have stables and bring them in when the vet, farrier, dentist and so on are due. They also come into the yard to be groomed or worked. This suits them and me very nicely.


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## rara007 (23 February 2015)

I think the awa is even more applicable since we've had advances in vet care, understanding of behaviour, less need for horses to truely 'work' to earn their keep (even a professionals competition horse doesn't need to be delivering the milk 12 hours a day) etc. 
There's negative welfare implications at both ends of the equine class system (over produced 6/7 figure horses that never have the sun on their backs or a good mutual groom, down to gypsy ponies in bogs without feed.)


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## Queenbee (23 February 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			PS  Some trainers do turn them out, I have worked in both types of yards and dont see any difference with the "happiness", in fact the ones that had no turnout were looked after better generally. I think that was general management being poor in the yard that did turnout: their horses were turned out whether they liked it or not, and some did not.
		
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See, I do find that it all comes down to the concept of wellbeing. I'm not anthropomorphising here, but for humans wellbeing is seen as all encompassing, mental and physical. So should it be for horses and indeed any animal. Emotional wellbeing is crucial, and standing in a stall all day except to be exercised is not tending to emotional wellbeing.  I wonder what the ratio was on the turnout v's no turnout yard of stable vices, ulcers, injuries.  It would be interesting to know. I've kept my horse on box rest, I'm incredibly lucky he adores his box, loves to lie down, loves to chill out in there, and as much as he is either waiting at the gate for me or gallops to the gate without fail to be bought in, I am under no illusions he also loves and benefits from his time out, he bucks he farts he does the wall of death, he sets other horses off bucking and farting... I could never take that from him no matter how much he loved his stable, and if commercially or privately stabling 24/7 was the only way I could keep a horse, I'd take up knitting.


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## Penumbra (23 February 2015)

In my opinion, there are some issues with the Animal Welfare Act (2006), mainly that it is often hard to enforce when people are breaking the law, and, in many ways, it is too general, as it covers animals in all settings, from pets to lab animals to farm animals to animals in zoos. 

It's worth bearing in mind that in actual practice pet animals gain very little protection from the act. Dogs, for example, are generally considered a social animal, but it is see as perfectly ok to keep one dog and rarely allow it to play/interact with other dogs. It's also seen as ok to leave a dog alone for several hours while the owners go out to work. In my opinion, keeping a lone dog in this way does contravene both the letter and the spirit of the act, but no-one would ever police it and prosecute it in this way. You would need to have a home office license to do this to a dog in a lab for 24 hours, but it's seen as fine for someone to do in their own home.  

I don't think the way the act is phrased insists on 24/7 turnout, stabling (especially in extreme weather) can be more appropriate. However, if a horse is always stabled, then I agree that this should be considered breaking the law. However, a prosecution would never be achieved for this reason. 

The problem, IMO, is not really the act as such- it is a good idea to have general protection for all animals in law. The problem is that pet animals are not protected and no-one is willing to take responsibility for doing this. We do tolerate things for pets that we would never tolerate for zoo animals or livestock (as an example). I do think there should be specific provision for pets in law (or at least vertebrate pets) explaining exactly how they should be cared for, but, more importantly, the law should state who is responsible for policing this, and when they should act. All too often, charities are relied upon to enforce the law, meaning enforcement is patchy and often ineffective.


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## Goldenstar (23 February 2015)

SpringArising said:



			The thing is, though, we still have our freedom. We are still given a choice of where we live, who we live with and how we live. Horses aren't.
		
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That's really the point, the sort of horses I have are a human creation they are not designed to live on the steppe .
To be clear my horses get a lot of turnout .
But I don't consider for example being out 24/7 in summer being driven mad by flys better than coming in the stable .


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## Goldenstar (23 February 2015)

The individual turnout thing is a hard one I like all my horses to go out in a group but there's no doubt turning out fit horses together is a considerable risk .
I brought my new horse home today he's an expensive horse (advanced eventer ) he's used to going out alone , what do you do for the best ?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (23 February 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			PS  Some trainers do turn them out, I have worked in both types of yards and dont see any difference with the "happiness", in fact the ones that had no turnout were looked after better generally. I think that was general management being poor in the yard that did turnout: their horses were turned out whether they liked it or not, and some did not.
		
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I don't think any of the horses developed stable vices, [I only recall one that cribbed], and ulcers were never mentioned, to be honest I have seen more leisure horses cribbing than racehorses. I only worked at a few smaller flat yards, and again, they were all kept pretty occupied, I used to buy an odd one off the track as they say on here, and they were fine, but then I'd not buy one that showed "behaviours"


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## wench (23 February 2015)

Just to be a bore, I'd almost turn the original post around and say does having horses turned out in a group in a small mud pit go against the act?

Which situation would you rather be in? Dry and fed up, or cold, wet, up to your knees in mud and fed up. I know which one I'd rather have


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## SpringArising (23 February 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			The individual turnout thing is a hard one I like all my horses to go out in a group but there's no doubt turning out fit horses together is a considerable risk .
I brought my new horse home today he's an expensive horse (advanced eventer ) he's used to going out alone , what do you do for the best ?
		
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Do you not have a placid horse you could turn him out with? I think some real company would be really nice for him after being alone for (what I presume) a long time.


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## Princess16 (23 February 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			But I don't consider for example being out 24/7 in summer being driven mad by flys better than coming in the stable .
		
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Fly mask and shelter suits him fine not to mention freedom of running around interacting with his friends as opposed to being shut in a stable for hours on end. Know what he'd choose if he could talk !


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## Goldenstar (23 February 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Do you not have a placid horse you could turn him out with? I think some real company would be really nice for him after being alone for (what I presume) a long time.
		
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Not really, Fatty is the best bet I'll have to wait until he's having a holiday and has no shoes which will be shortly but that won't be for long as Fatty has to go into a track system as soon as the spring starts .
It's a big big dilemma .


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## Goldenstar (23 February 2015)

Princess16 said:



			Fly mask and shelter suits him fine not to mention freedom of running around interacting with his friends as opposed to being shut in a stable for hours on end. Know what he'd choose if he could talk !
		
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You don't know my horses .
Don't presume you do .


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## Princess16 (23 February 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			You don't know my horses .
Don't presume you do .
		
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And you don't know mine.

There will always be pros and cons for stabling vs turnout so each to their own. I will leave it at that


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## Tiddlypom (23 February 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			It's a big big dilemma .
		
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Adopt a suitable companion horse or pony from one of the equine charities ? If none of your others would be suitable as turnout buddies, and it would keep the new boy happy, maybe worth a thought?


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## Fellewell (23 February 2015)

As any farrier will tell you, keeping them sound at this time of year is a struggle. The constant wet/dry does hooves no favours. If you have an expensive, competition/event horse in fittening work, it's better to have him ready in the stable for work in the morning. Horses are happy in if they have company and some forage just as they are out. There is far more capacity for injury in a soggy bog than in a stable. As for stable balanced herds, I have yet to see this on a livery yard. No one with an expensive horse wants to see all their hard work put at risk. Some of the horses I see in full work would relish the opportunity to be bored in a stable! You have to provide a work/life balance for them IMO


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## SpringArising (23 February 2015)

Fellewell said:



			If you have an expensive, competition/event horse in fittening work, it's better to have him ready in the stable for work in the morning.
		
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For the owner it's better. 




			No one with an expensive horse wants to see all their hard work put at risk.
		
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Once again, practicality for the owner is being put before the welfare of the horse. 




			Some of the horses I see in full work would relish the opportunity to be bored in a stable!
		
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Can't for the life of me work out how you think this. 

No one enjoys being bored, whether it be a fish, a dog, a human or a horse. 

Moreover, turnout isn't just about being mentally stimulating. It's about their physical health, too.


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## Fellewell (23 February 2015)

SpringArising said:



			For the owner it's better. 



Once again, practicality for the owner is being put before the welfare of the horse. 



Can't for the life of me work out how you think this. 

No one enjoys being bored, whether it be a fish, a dog, a human or a horse. 

Moreover, turnout isn't just about being mentally stimulating. It's about their physical health, too.
		
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If you enjoy riding/competing these things have to be considered. Fail to see how his welfare is compromised? Horses in work don't have time to get bored, that's why I included the work/life balance bit.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (23 February 2015)

My horse lives in, I'd rather that than him keep jumping onto a busy road!!


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## Goldenstar (23 February 2015)

Horses like resting they do it in a field they do it in stables .
I simply don't get these anti stabling fundamentalists .


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## Nancykitt (23 February 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Horses like resting they do it in a field they do it in stables .
I simply don't get these anti stabling fundamentalists .
		
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Totally agree. 
Before we moved house, our horses were kept out 24/7 in a large field with a field shelter and extra forage in winter. 
Now they are out during the day and in at night.
I honestly can't see any difference in their behaviour/attitudes/whatever. They hack out and hunt every week and seem very biddable. 
They do seem to like coming in when the weather's bad. They are stabled in a block and can see each other. 
As far as I can see, they have everything they need. They have company, food, foot care, vet care, rugs as necessary, grooming, pampering...
I have absolutely no qualms about keeping them stabled as I do.


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## honetpot (23 February 2015)

What annoys me is that stable design for the most part takes no account of horses natural behaviours and simple changes that could cost very little or nothing could improve an animal quality of life.
 I did the  tour round the trainers yards is Newmarket several years ago and the difference in the yards and the horses apparent ease not only depended on the buildings but the way they were managed. My favourite was a state of the art barn with wide walkways, plenty of natural light, grills between boxes and an extra top door at the back of the box. Not everyone has lots of money but putting extra natural light may be actually cheaper than a solid roof, an extra top door at the back of the box £200.
  My land is clay and very wet so mine are kept in groups in barns, with open front and back and a mud play area. Its cheaper and it keeps them moving so warmer, if they get on outside the chances are they will do well together inside as long as there is plenty to eat.


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## SpringArising (23 February 2015)

Fellewell said:



			If you enjoy riding/competing these things have to be considered. Fail to see how his welfare is compromised? Horses in work don't have time to get bored, that's why I included the work/life balance bit.
		
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What type of work are you talking about here? Most horses are ridden for an hour/two hours tops. What are they doing for the other 22 hours a day? 

To clarify, I don't have so much of an issue with horses who are out during the day and in at night. What I think is absolutely barbaric is to keep a horse locked up for more or less 24 hours a day. 

Would you think that acceptable for a dog?


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## amandaco2 (23 February 2015)

My 4 are living out on 10 hilly acres in winter then rotating on 4 summer acres. The imported inter ii dressage pony loves it.

been on yards promising turnout all year, but that then say no turnout nov to april if its wet!
so its not always owners choice to keep their horses in.....


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## sport horse (24 February 2015)

Many warmbloods do not thrive living out in the cold and wet. I have competition horses that I have bred, reared, produced and several kept in their retirement in their 20's.  As youngsters they spent most of their lives outside except in the worst of the wet winter weather. As competition horses they spent most of their lives in stables with daily turnout. As retired horses they pretty much have the choice. What do they choose? As soon as it rains they hang about by the gates calling to come in. If I leave a stable door open often they will not even venture out onto the yard. If left out they will often jump over the gate and put themselves away. I think that says it all. Horses become accustomed to their lifestyles and to enforce change because a human being puts human thoughts into a horse brain is pretty stupid aka cruel. We now have a breed of horse that is bred for  sport work and to insist that that horse lives the lifestyle of a native pony may be failing to provide for its needs as much as failing to feed etc.


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## Fellewell (24 February 2015)

SpringArising said:



			What type of work are you talking about here? Most horses are ridden for an hour/two hours tops. What are they doing for the other 22 hours a day? 

To clarify, I don't have so much of an issue with horses who are out during the day and in at night. What I think is absolutely barbaric is to keep a horse locked up for more or less 24 hours a day. 

Would you think that acceptable for a dog?
		
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You could enjoy a day's hunting if your horse is fit enough. Look at the other disciplines on boards, they keep busy enough. For fittening work, which is what I mentioned, you would need to split those two hours to am and pm. Most yards have horse walkers these days. Horses don't stand around looking bored at le Cadre Noir, it's that work/life balance again.
Horses turned out in pairs on dry days/well drained paddocks for short periods works for some but the grazing is checked and maintained meticulously.

Horses kept on a budget are a whole different argument and 'freedom of expression' is often used as an argument for chucking them out and leaving them there. Many yard owners insist on stabling during winter but if you rush down to the farm at 6am and turn your horse out in the pouring rain/pitch black can you see what state the field is in? Do you have time to inspect it for broken fencing or sinkholes etc? You should pay for part/full livery if this is the case.

Yes, I have expensive purpose-built outdoor kennels and runs but I don't have an indoor cage.


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## GinaGeo (24 February 2015)

I have in the past kept my horses together with access to the open stables 24/7.  Unfortunately when you have horses with differing needs; a fat Connemara who needs a restricted diet, a geriatric who needs to eat constantly, and a fit young eventer who loves to play and needs to eat but gets distracted by company - keeping them like that is hard.

One gets fat, one gets thin and the other drives the other two potty and doesn't eat enough.  

They are now stabled individually overnight.  The old boy gets an exclusive haynet, which he can eat slowly through the night. The fatty gets him limited haynet, which is treble netted and the young eventer is kept out the way so everybody can have some rest.  

They're all good friends - but sometimes need their own space.  Sometimes stabling is a necessary evil and an essential part of management.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 February 2015)

Fellewell said:



			You could enjoy a day's hunting if your horse is fit enough. Look at the other disciplines on boards, they keep busy enough. For fittening work, which is what I mentioned, you would need to split those two hours to am and pm. Most yards have horse walkers these days. Horses don't stand around looking bored at le Cadre Noir, it's that work/life balance again.
Horses turned out in pairs on dry days/well drained paddocks for short periods works for some but the grazing is checked and maintained meticulously.

Horses kept on a budget are a whole different argument and 'freedom of expression' is often used as an argument for chucking them out and leaving them there. Many yard owners insist on stabling during winter but if you rush down to the farm at 6am and turn your horse out in the pouring rain/pitch black can you see what state the field is in? Do you have time to inspect it for broken fencing or sinkholes etc? You should pay for part/full livery if this is the case.

Yes, I have expensive purpose-built outdoor kennels and runs but I don't have an indoor cage.
		
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GinaGeo said:



			I have in the past kept my horses together with access to the open stables 24/7.  Unfortunately when you have horses with differing needs; a fat Connemara who needs a restricted diet, a geriatric who needs to eat constantly, and a fit young eventer who loves to play and needs to eat but gets distracted by company - keeping them like that is hard.

One gets fat, one gets thin and the other drives the other two potty and doesn't eat enough.  

They are now stabled individually overnight.  The old boy gets an exclusive haynet, which he can eat slowly through the night. The fatty gets him limited haynet, which is treble netted and the young eventer is kept out the way so everybody can have some rest.  

They're all good friends - but sometimes need their own space.  Sometimes stabling is a necessary evil and an essential part of management.
		
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completely agree with these two posts.

we have 2 real fatties, both lammi risks that need VERY restricted grazing year round. 1 very fit dressage horse and 1 entire 3yo-completely impractical to keep them together! 

as per my earlier post too, yes, i make compromises that make life easier for me because if it wasn't easy for me to keep and compete the beggars, i wouldnt have them, and neither would a lot of competitive riders i know and the breeding industry and general market for horses would be even more up the creek!

and again (repeating myself)-chuck your horse out in your acre of clay sludge, let it stand around and get mud fever, cold and stiff from not being able to move freely through said sludge, and then try and tell me THATS not a welfare issue.............................but many people do it and preach its the best way.BS..............


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## stormox (24 February 2015)

My horses live in all the time, and are ridden for at least an hour each day, and led out for 10 mins morning and evening. Our land isn't great, not even in summer. and most horses I have known in many different yards are keener to come in in the evenings than go out in the mornings. My horses seem content, no stable vices, ride well, and are very mannerly. So I don't consider myself cruel at all.
Also, surely a dog, living in a family home, shut in a house (whether in one room, or the whole house), especially if people are at work all day, and on a lead for walks, also has its freedom curtailed? A hamster or rabbit in a cage, a bird in a cage, isn't it all cruel in the same way as a horse in a stable?


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## twiggy2 (24 February 2015)

ljohnsonsj said:



			Because how can it apply to every single horse. Competition horses for example, that are stabled majority of the time and get turned out in their own paddock. Their welfare is still obviously important to owners/grooms and they are kept better than majority of 'everyday' horses although if you just grouped it under this act, it would suggest that they aren't getting what they are supposed to be. (Wording isn't brill, i know what I mean but wasn't sure how to word it!)
		
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they are not kept better for the horse they are kept to suit owners better if they are kept as you mention.

many 'competition' horses are not kept as you state some of the ones that are less stressed and have less stable vices but go out and compete at a high standard are kept I know of many that live out all year round in herds and the go out and event, dressage, showjumping, pony club and hunting, others that are in herds and out at night in summer and daytime in winter and again others that live out in individual paddocks-I wish people would not think that because a horse competes it cannot be a horse.

what is an 'everyday' horse and how is it different from a horse that competes?


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## twiggy2 (24 February 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I am totally pro turnout, but there are risks, broken legs among them.
NH racehorses tend to have very busy lives, they also usually sleep rather a lot, so except for very few, they seem to be OK in stabling, they usually get three months off in a field every year.
		
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Personally I think the risks of not turn out far outweigh the risks of putting them out.

higher risk of colic/ulcers/soft tissue injury due to lack of movement affecting strength and elasticity/stable vices/getting cast to name a few. 
a friends horse broke its pelvis overnight in the stable had to be shot they think she got cast,


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## twiggy2 (24 February 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			The individual turnout thing is a hard one I like all my horses to go out in a group but there's no doubt turning out fit horses together is a considerable risk .
I brought my new horse home today he's an expensive horse (advanced eventer ) he's used to going out alone , what do you do for the best ?
		
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surely the fact that he is expensive should be irrelevant , owners should still do the best for the individual horse?
we have an eventer at work that has come from a yard where he was out 24/7 all summer in a mixed herd of approx 30 horses, he is turned out alone here as he runs everything ragged and the mares will kick 7 bells out of him- he needs to be on a bigger busier yard with lots of others to go out with -if he was mine I would move yards or sell him. he is surrounded by the other horses and on the face of it seems ok with that but he does like to play and is slowly wrecking the place whilst trying to entertain himself


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## ljohnsonsj (24 February 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			surely the fact that he is expensive should be irrelevant , owners should still do the best for the individual horse?
we have an eventer at work that has come from a yard where he was out 24/7 all summer in a mixed herd of approx 30 horses, he is turned out alone here as he runs everything ragged and the mares will kick 7 bells out of him- he needs to be on a bigger busier yard with lots of others to go out with -if he was mine I would move yards or sell him. he is surrounded by the other horses and on the face of it seems ok with that but he does like to play and is slowly wrecking the place whilst trying to entertain himself
		
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If the horse is used to being alone I see no problem. In the case where a horse is wrecking things because he is that bothered about being alone then maybe small group turn out, 1 or 2 other horses. It is different for every single horse that is why I think the 'act' is a bit of a shambles. Turning a horse out on its own is not an act of cruelty or wrong for it's welfare, as the 'act' suggests.


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## twiggy2 (24 February 2015)

ljohnsonsj said:



			If the horse is used to being alone I see no problem. In the case where a horse is wrecking things because he is that bothered about being alone then maybe small group turn out, 1 or 2 other horses. It is different for every single horse that is why I think the 'act' is a bit of a shambles. Turning a horse out on its own is not an act of cruelty or wrong for it's welfare, as the 'act' suggests.
		
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he was in a small group at work but the he runs everyone ragged so he gets beaten up as he wont leave them alone, he is wrecking the place because he is bored.
I agree it is different for every horse but i hate the 'my horse competes therefore it is automatically in my horses best interest to stay in 23 hrs per day and be turned out alone on the rare occasion turn out happens'


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## SpringArising (24 February 2015)

Horses become accustomed to their lifestyles and to enforce change because a human being puts human thoughts into a horse brain is pretty stupid aka cruel.
		
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Except we're not doing that. Those of us who don't like stabling are doing the exact opposite of that. It's the people who stable who are putting human thoughts into a horse's brain. 

They think their horses want to be 'tucked up in bed', wearing their 'pyjamas'. 




			chuck your horse out in your acre of clay sludge, let it stand around and get mud fever, cold and stiff from not being able to move freely through said sludge, and then try and tell me THATS not a welfare issue
		
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And horses in stables can move around freely? At least in the field, they have the option to if they want.




			My horses live in all the time, and are ridden for at least an hour each day, and led out for 10 mins morning and evening. My horses seem content
		
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So that's an hour and twenty minutes out of the stable, per day, in total. Would you be happy with that, if you were in your horse's shoes? 




			Most yards have horse walkers these days. Horses don't stand around looking bored at le Cadre Noir
		
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Gee! Great! Half hour walking round and round on a concrete slab. What fun that must be. 




			Personally I think the risks of no turn out far outweigh the risks of putting them out.
		
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			I agree it is different for every horse but i hate the 'my horse competes therefore it is automatically in my horses best interest to stay in 23 hrs per day and be turned out alone on the rare occasion turn out happens'
		
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Agree. IMO there are two very different types of horse owner.


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## pinkypug1 (24 February 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Except we're not doing that. Those of us who don't like stabling are doing the exact opposite of that. It's the people who stable who are putting human thoughts into a horse's brain. 

They think their horses want to be 'tucked up in bed', wearing their 'pyjamas'. 



And horses in stables can move around freely? At least in the field, they have the option to if they want.



So that's an hour and twenty minutes out of the stable, per day, in total. Would you be happy with that, if you were in your horse's shoes? 



Gee! Great! Half hour walking round and round on a concrete slab. What fun that must be. 





Agree. IMO there are two very different types of horse owner.
		
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Totally agree!!


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## Goldenstar (24 February 2015)

You may consider his cost irrelevant , perhaps because you have not just written the cheque to buy him.
My OH's first house cost less than he did so keeping him safe is a big issue and if he gets injured I won't be able to get another all my eggs are truely in this basket ,he is used to being protected I don't know if he has any social skills at all.
Single turnout has probably been his lot for a long time , to impose group turnout on him on a new yard might well end in injury to him or one of my existing also very precious ( to me )horses .
The case of the horse you describe is not relevant that horse is clearly unsettled in it's management it needs less hard food or more work or different work or something else , my new new horse is in every situation well mannered and settled he's been with very good yards all his life ,he's a lovely well adjusted horse .
He's standing resting in the sun ATM sheltered by a big hedge , I wish he was grazing a bit more but he looks content .
He's been out since quarter to nine , I rode out at seven fifteen then turned him out so he was not too fresh in strange field .
It's a question , as all competition horse management is , of balancing all the priorities to get the best plan for each horse .


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## Moomin1 (24 February 2015)

sport horse said:



			Many warmbloods do not thrive living out in the cold and wet. I have competition horses that I have bred, reared, produced and several kept in their retirement in their 20's.  As youngsters they spent most of their lives outside except in the worst of the wet winter weather. As competition horses they spent most of their lives in stables with daily turnout. As retired horses they pretty much have the choice. What do they choose? As soon as it rains they hang about by the gates calling to come in. If I leave a stable door open often they will not even venture out onto the yard. If left out they will often jump over the gate and put themselves away. I think that says it all. Horses become accustomed to their lifestyles and to enforce change because a human being puts human thoughts into a horse brain is pretty stupid aka cruel. We now have a breed of horse that is bred for  sport work and to insist that that horse lives the lifestyle of a native pony may be failing to provide for its needs as much as failing to feed etc.
		
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How handy.  I have yet to come across a horse (let alone more than one in a yard) who actually will regularly jump a gate and put itself in the stable if it chooses, or stand in an open stable and never venture out of the door.  Where do you get horses that do that? Lol, it would save an awful lot of time and effort each day.



stormox said:



			My horses live in all the time, and are ridden for at least an hour each day, and led out for 10 mins morning and evening. Our land isn't great, not even in summer. and most horses I have known in many different yards are keener to come in in the evenings than go out in the mornings. My horses seem content, no stable vices, ride well, and are very mannerly. So I don't consider myself cruel at all.
Also, surely a dog, living in a family home, shut in a house (whether in one room, or the whole house), especially if people are at work all day, and on a lead for walks, also has its freedom curtailed? A hamster or rabbit in a cage, a bird in a cage, isn't it all cruel in the same way as a horse in a stable?
		
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Yes, you are quite correct.  Shutting a dog in a house 23 hours a day with only an hours exercise out of the house would also be extremely unreasonable and a welfare issue.  As for rabbits and birds in cages...don't get me started.

How come your horses aren't turned out?  Is it just a land issue?


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## FairyLights (24 February 2015)

my horses love their stables and are in no rush to go out in the mornings  i often have to insist. they have plenty to eat outside. but they do go out every day for 8 hrs minimum. rugged and warm


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## twiggy2 (24 February 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			he is used to being protected I don't know if he has any social skills at all.
Single turnout has probably been his lot for a long time , to impose group turnout on him on a new yard might well end in injury to him or one of my existing also very precious ( to me )horses .

******THIS I AGREE WITH^
you need to get to know him******


The case of the horse you describe is not relevant that horse is clearly unsettled in it's management it needs less hard food or more work or different work or something else , 

******......he is not on any hard feed, he has been with us a year and in that time different feeds have been tried-he cannot cope with sugar or too much protein, haylage gave him hives and made him very grumpy-he is really sociable and mentally very busy, he is worked 6 days per week but if he were mine he would be doing a lot more than he does- he really needs to be out in a herd with lots of others-I have never meet such a busy brained horse in all my years with them, if you put toys etc in the field he plays with them once then is bored but if someone leaves a wheel barrow out there then he stamps on it till it is broken, he takes the slip rails down, he barges the yard gates open, he plays with the hose but only if the water is running through it creating vibrations in it.....******

It's a question , as all competition horse management is , of balancing all the priorities to get the best plan for each horse .
		
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the purchase cost of the 3 horses/ponies where I work adds up to just shy of 50k (+a free shetland) and the 2 (1 of which is broken) girls are now living out full time together, he cannot go with them as he just does not let anything rest and the broken one is supposed to be healing-they would paste him if he ran them ragged anyway. 
I agree the best plan for each horse but I believe that should be regardless of financial cost of the horse. my mare goes out with anything anywhere, she had been kept in a stable for 24 hrs per day for a year before I bought her as a 2 yr old, she was out of my friends mare but had been sold a s a yearling, she is turned out every day for at least 5 hrs regardless of weather and waits to come in but she comes in to easy food if the stable was empty she would probably choose to stay out.


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## Goldenstar (24 February 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			he was in a small group at work but the he runs everyone ragged so he gets beaten up as he wont leave them alone, he is wrecking the place because he is bored.
I agree it is different for every horse but i hate the 'my horse competes therefore it is automatically in my horses best interest to stay in 23 hrs per day and be turned out alone on the rare occasion turn out happens'
		
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I don't think anyone has said that my horse has to stay in 23 hours a day because it's a competition horse .


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## stormox (24 February 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			How handy.
How come your horses aren't turned out?  Is it just a land issue?
		
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Yes, I only have an acre, including my house, and it is extremely difficult to rent around here. In a perfect world they would be in at night, get fed, mucked out and groomed- then ridden and turned out for a few hours before coming in.
It is much more convenient to ride a horse from a stable than it is from a muddy field too. Also, I wonder how any people whos horses are turned out all the time actually pick feet out (VERY important), and groom properly, checking for injuries etc EVERY DAY?


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## Moomin1 (24 February 2015)

stormox said:



			Yes, I only have an acre, including my house, and it is extremely difficult to rent around here. In a perfect world they would be in at night, get fed, mucked out and groomed- then ridden and turned out for a few hours before coming in.
It is much more convenient to ride a horse from a stable than it is from a muddy field too. Also, I wonder how any people whos horses are turned out all the time actually pick feet out (VERY important), and groom properly, checking for injuries etc EVERY DAY?
		
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I'm a bit perplexed by this statement.  The answer would be, quite easily lol.  You simply catch horse, tie up somewhere, pick horse's feet out, groom, and check for injuries...daily.  Job done.  And in any case, horses don't need grooming daily.  If living out, it's actually detrimental to groom them daily as it strips the natural protection from the coat, including mud, which is a natural protector.  

But like you say, if someone doesn't want the inconvenience of having a muddy horse which they have to groom before they ride then that's up to them.

ETA, I don't agree with keeping horses when you don't have the appropriate facilities to provide their needs.  If you only have one acre, and are not able to rent more, then I'm afraid IMO you should not have more than one horse.  And tbh, even for one horse only, one acre is pushing it.


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## Cortez (24 February 2015)

As usual this has turned into the 24/7-ers VS people who stable their horses some/all of the time. In an ideal world I suppose horses would have free access to field and stable all the time, but it's not an ideal world is it? There have to be practicalities. I have in the past had stables and/or shelters open to fields; a few horses never went into their stables; some horses preferred to stay in some of the time (one reprobate only ever went in the stable to pee); one or two spent hours in, or came in at the slightest hint of "weather" - very individual choices.  I do not exist to pander to my horse's whims, but I do wish to take care of him responsibly, IMO a combination of stabling and turnout is best for both the horse AND the caretaker. As long as the horse is fed appropriately, exercised enough (and this is key), and kept with sufficient, clean bedding then I believe his needs are met.

Whether the UK's animal welfare act really has relevance to the care of horses I cannot say, but I have a feeling it was not designed to dictate to responsible horse owners.


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## stormox (24 February 2015)

Apallingly to some people, I suppose, I have my horses for MY pleasure, I spend plenty of money on feed, hay, shoes, vets etc etc- I want to look after them as well as I possibly can, I get up at unearthly hour every morning, rush home from work in my lunch hour, and look after them before I feed myself.
I have worked/known plenty of yards and a lot of horses are stabled ALL the time.
I have seen many horses out 24 hours of a day who have rugs on that no one ever changes according to the weather. Miserable horses standing shivering in fields seeking whatever shelter they can get. horses with rain scald due to heavy NZ rugs not being taken off/changed.
My horses are always happily munching hay, dozing, lying down asleep or working. Any injury, skin complaint, whatever is instantly picked up on and treated (and I know fro other threads this isn't always the case with horses in fields).
I am sure they are 'happy' - at least as happy as a lot of turned out all the time horses! But is 'happiness' an emotion a horse feels? I tend to think horses feel contentment, or need, but that happiness is a human emotion.


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## sport horse (24 February 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			How handy.  I have yet to come across a horse (let alone more than one in a yard) who actually will regularly jump a gate and put itself in the stable if it chooses, or stand in an open stable and never venture out of the door.  Where do you get horses that do that? Lol, it would save an awful lot of time and effort each day.

Well Moomin I have more than one. Where do I get them. I breed them mostly. You have not come across one - well you are unlucky aren't you. Perhaps in time you will,maybe not, but please do not be so sarcastic or disbelieving of others. I have always found it better to keep an open mind and accept that there is more than one way that is right and it may not always be your way.
		
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## SpringArising (24 February 2015)

ETA, I don't agree with keeping horses when you don't have the appropriate facilities to provide their needs. If you only have one acre, and are not able to rent more, then I'm afraid IMO you should not have more than one horse.
		
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Completely agree. 




			Apallingly to some people, I suppose, I have my horses for MY pleasure, I spend plenty of money on feed, hay, shoes, vets etc etc- I want to look after them as well as I possibly can
		
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No, it's not appalling. Let's face it; we all have horses for our own pleasure. But what I despise, is the 'I pay a lot of money to keep a horse, so therefore I am going to do what's convenient for me, and if my horse's welfare might be compromised, then he'll have to deal with it' attitude. 

Your horse doesn't know/care he's expensive. 




			I have worked/known plenty of yards and a lot of horses are stabled ALL the time.
		
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So? 




			My horses are always happily munching hay, dozing, lying down asleep
		
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Well, what else is there to do in a stable?




			My horses are always happily munching hay, dozing, lying down asleep or working. Any injury, skin complaint, whatever is instantly picked up on and treated
		
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Honestly, I'd rather see a few marks on my horses than think even for a second that they were bored stiff, spending their life standing surrounded by four walls. 

For me, there's nothing better than watching a group of horses having a gallop around in the field, grooming each other and playing.

I think the least we can do for our horses, after all they do for us, is ensure their most basic need is met.


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## express_75 (24 February 2015)

stormox said:



			Apallingly to some people, I suppose, I have my horses for MY pleasure, I spend plenty of money on feed, hay, shoes, vets etc etc- I want to look after them as well as I possibly can, I get up at unearthly hour every morning, rush home from work in my lunch hour, and look after them before I feed myself.
I have worked/known plenty of yards and a lot of horses are stabled ALL the time.
I have seen many horses out 24 hours of a day who have rugs on that no one ever changes according to the weather. Miserable horses standing shivering in fields seeking whatever shelter they can get. horses with rain scald due to heavy NZ rugs not being taken off/changed.
My horses are always happily munching hay, dozing, lying down asleep or working. Any injury, skin complaint, whatever is instantly picked up on and treated (and I know fro other threads this isn't always the case with horses in fields).
I am sure they are 'happy' - at least as happy as a lot of turned out all the time horses! But is 'happiness' an emotion a horse feels? I tend to think horses feel contentment, or need, but that happiness is a human emotion.
		
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This ^^
My horses are stabled as our turn out is so wet but do get to go out there when it's not so bad, they are healthy, content, get schooled, hacked, hunted, shown, left alone to be horses and as much as id love them out for most of the day and in at night, it's just not possible (at the moment) as it would cause more hassle than it's worth.  Their stables all have grills so they see each other, they have the company of chickens & cats wondering around for their amusement too...


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## debserofe (24 February 2015)

I think it depends on the horse and the circumstances - I have an ex racehorse who, although he has the choice to leave his stable and interact with others, chooses to stay in a stable - I am lucky that, in really bad weather, I have a courtyard where my horses can all interact but have shelter available to them - my ex racer comes out of his stable and walks straight into one of my other horses' stables and then stays there for the rest of the day!  It seems that a change of stable is all he needs!!  I should add that all my stables are 16 by 16 with the top half of the interconnecting walls open to allow interaction (except for the one between my boys and my mare - she likes her privacy when in her stable!)  I think that the size of the stable is more important than the time spent in it - if they can move around and get out into a school or whatnot to roll and stretch their legs at some point during the day, they seem quite happy to be sheltered from the elements - they can wander around the courtyard if they want but, in really bad weather, you will find them all sheltering either under the stable overhang or in any one of the stables - sometimes all in the same one!


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## Goldenstar (24 February 2015)

Well I say honestly I keep horses to use them, not be a form of equine slave and they are  easier and nicer to use when kept on the combined system .
I really believe for horses in work / being trained the combined system offers both the horse and human the best of both worlds, although it is undoubtedly much easier on the human to have them out all the time .  
I have one who only comes in to work although he costs me much more to feed than my others he costs far less in time .
He prefers out with a shed , he's quite a damaged difficult horse I think out suits him best but who knows , interestingly he spend quite a lot of his youth stalled and I wonder if that impacted on him.
I had one who did not like being out at all ,the most you get her to do was three hours in warm still weather ,she just jumped back in or stuck her leg through the gate (a sure fire way to be brought in ) .
I worked for a family that had a little Irish horse that jumped back onto the yard as well ,you often would find him back in his stable and the paddocks there where lovely he would jump away from company to come back to the yard  .
My best horse used to jump into the garden when she saw me working there and lie down on the lawn close to me , I loved that it felt like a real honour .


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## stormox (24 February 2015)

Spring Arising, where are you? because some places have more available land with less restrictions than others.
And Moomin1 - there is a horse welfare crisis at the moment. Horses are being abandoned here there and everywhere. The rescue homes and charities are full.
If you deny normal people, who work hard, pay taxes but don't have the luxury, or ability to acquire land, or have nearby yards with turnout, the right to keep horses to the best of their ability, and those horses are perfectly fine in the way they are cared for, whats going to happen??? EVEN MORE HOMELESS HORSES


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## eggs (24 February 2015)

Just to weigh in to this thread

I've got five fit competition horses (advanced medium dressage and BE100 eventers).  They go out in the field together at about 7.30 and come in any time before dark.  They then spend the night in their own stables although they can interact with each other due to 3/4 height walls between the stables.  In the summer I switch around and they come into the stable in the morning and go back out into the fields together early evening.

However I keep them at home in a static herd (ie. no new horses turning up to be integrated).  What I have noticed is that the youngsters are happy to stay out in all weathers (they have access to large barns and live out 24/7) but the adult horses tend to start hanging around the gate about an hour before they are due to come in and if it starts raining they go galloping down to the gate to try to convince me they will dissolve in the rain.  Fortunately my fields hold up well but I will get them in early if they start fannying around at the gate (like someone else mentioned - putting a hoof through the bars of the gate is a favourite trick).

I do think the majority of horse adapt very well to the routine they are kept in.


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## Moomin1 (24 February 2015)

stormox said:



			Spring Arising, where are you? because some places have more available land with less restrictions than others.
And Moomin1 - there is a horse welfare crisis at the moment. Horses are being abandoned here there and everywhere. The rescue homes and charities are full.
If you deny normal people, who work hard, pay taxes but don't have the luxury, or ability to acquire land, or have nearby yards with turnout, the right to keep horses to the best of their ability, and those horses are perfectly fine in the way they are cared for, whats going to happen??? EVEN MORE HOMELESS HORSES 

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Believe me, I am more than aware there is a welfare crisis.  I have spent eight years working on the front line of animal welfare/cruelty/neglect cases.

The fact that there is a crisis does not mean that you or anyone else are exonerated from having to meet a horse's needs to a reasonable standard.  I have no doubt whatsoever you care for your horses to an excellent standard by the sounds of it.  However that doesn't make right IMO the fact that they have spend their entire lives couped up in a stable.  

As far as the homeless horse situation goes, that's an entirely different subject.

But that is my humble opinion.


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## Tobiano (24 February 2015)

duplicate post


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## Tobiano (24 February 2015)

I am dead against keeping a horse on its own.  I know there are a few horses who dont seem to mind this but IMO it is cruel.  Thats not to say that individual turnout, where they can see other horses and interact over a fence, is cruel though.  

As for stabling / turnout - again personally I believe that it is cruel to keep a horse stabled 23 hours a day unless it is for veterinary reasons.  

In my (admittedly very limited compared to some of the posters on here) experience, my horses let me know if they are unhappy with their routine.  My youngster was acting up without enough turnout so he has now gone out 24/7.  My other horse won't go out on his own (dont blame him); hates staying in if he sees another horse put in his field, (tries to jump over his stable door: that was when he was on box rest and we had run out of sedalin - he went out!) and although he is the best natured and most well behaved horse 99% of the time, he really lets me know when he doesnt like something.  Weirdly, although he wont stay in the field on his own, even if I am in there with him, he is happy to be grazed in hand next to the field and after 20 minutes or so seems to feel he has got what he needs and will happily settle in the stable.  This only happens if the fields are waterlogged or his field companion is not available.  

Perhaps I am lucky to have expressive horses but I think most horses show if they dont like how they are kept.


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## GemG (24 February 2015)

As Cortez says this has maybe turned into a stablers vs out 24/7 ers debate.

...the reality is that we ALL subject horses to an unnatural lifestyle as they are all in admittedly varying different degrees of unnatural ness -making up my own language here!  But as soon as we started segregating, inflicting our routines, feeds, tacking riding and then competing on, working etc the list goes on, we, as in society have put our ideals and needs above the horses.

That doesn't mean we are all cruel.  But I think we are blinkered if we think we all keep our animals the way nature intended, as we quite simply do not.  

Mine are NOT kept as nature intended, this could lead to another debate about riding etc and that's not what I intend. Simply to say even me, myself fails to provide that twenty four hour herd environment etc, especially with one being a stallion, he has to be isolated to a degree, albeit he has a wife that is running with him at the mo.  They are also worked etc.

Does that make me cruel. No I don't think so. ...


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## Moomin1 (24 February 2015)

GemG said:



			As Cortez says this has maybe turned into a stablers vs out 24/7 ers debate.

...the reality is that we ALL subject horses to an unnatural lifestyle as they are all in admittedly varying different degrees of unnatural ness -making up my own language here!  But as soon as we started segregating, inflicting our routines, feeds, tacking riding and then competing on, working etc the list goes on, we, as in society have put our ideals and needs above the horses.

That doesn't mean we are all cruel.  But I think we are blinkered if we think we all keep our animals the way nature intended, as we quite simply do not.  

Mine are NOT kept as nature intended, this could lead to another debate about riding etc and that's not what I intend. Simply to say even me, myself fails to provide that twenty four hour herd environment etc, especially with one being a stallion, he has to be isolated to a degree, albeit he has a wife that is running with him at the mo.  They are also worked etc.

Does that make me cruel. No I don't think so. ...
		
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I would have thought it was common sense though that none of us can keep horses or any domestic animal in an environment which is identical to nature's intent.  

Where it becomes debatable IMO is when it is to extremes.  This could mean both keeping horses stabled 24/7 or it could mean turning out and leaving completely unhandled/unchecked for weeks on end.  Both IMO are completely irresponsible and unreasonable methods of keeping horses.  If we have animals, we should make sure we keep them to the best of our ability, with a happy compromise on the animal's mental and physical welfare, and on our convenience.  IMO, it is not conducive to the welfare of a horse to have them couped up 24/7 with only an hour's exercise, unless it's for veterinary reasons/absolute necessity.  Keeping them in permanently simply because someone doesn't have the available land to support horses is not acceptable and 'I keep my horses for my enjoyment/pleasure'  is not an excuse.


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## glamourpuss (24 February 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Horses like resting they do it in a field they do it in stables .
I simply don't get these anti stabling fundamentalists .
		
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One of the most sensible posts I've read. 
Yes stabling does make things more convenient for owners but it's not always the hideous, evil, cruel thing. 

One of mine is currently stabled pretty much all the time. I'm not risking his legs in the deep clay & he wouldn't keep his shoes on & again I'm not risking knackering his feet before the event season starts. My horse, my choice.
That said because I choose to keep him this way I do everything to keep him stimulated & happy. He is worked hard with a very varied routine including lots of hacking. He goes on the walker, he is hand grazed & has lots of contact & company with other horses. He is on a busy yard so lots to watch, has constant forage & is regularly massaged & treated to keep his body supple. 

I honestly don't think he would prefer to be on the postage stamp mud bath with the other horses down the road. Even if the owners do gleefully boast they don't ever stable their horses.


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## SpringArising (24 February 2015)

...the reality is that we ALL subject horses to an unnatural lifestyle
		
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Exactly! So surely, the least we can do is make it as natural as possible for them? 




			He is on a busy yard so lots to watch
		
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This is really not a compromise and I think it's a very poor attempt at trying to make light of a horrible situation for a horse. I wouldn't feel happy being shut in my room just because I could see lots going on outside. 




			I honestly don't think he would prefer to be on the postage stamp mud bath with the other horses down the road.
		
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Do you really, honestly, in your heart of hearts, think that your horse would rather be locked in four walls, than be out in a field, in a herd with other horses, free to wander about where and when he wants?


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## glamourpuss (24 February 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Exactly! So surely, the least we can do is make it as natural as possible for them? 



This is really not a compromise and I think it's a very poor attempt at trying to make light of a horrible situation for a horse. I wouldn't feel happy being shut in my room just because I could see lots going on outside. 



Do you really, honestly, in your heart of hearts, think that your horse would rather be locked in four walls, than be out in a field, in a herd with other horses, free to wander about where and when he wants?
		
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This horse isn't stabled constantly all year round. He lives out in the summer, he was turned out in the day up until Christmas as the fields weren't deep & likely to cause injury. He does go out if the turn out isn't too deep so does go out but at the moment he does spend a lot of his time stabled with the compromises I listed. I should've been clearer in my post. 
Of course, for a horse, the perfect scenario would be the one you describe but very few horses anywhere get that. 
Is my horse happier than the ones I see down the road? Absolutely, hand on heart, I think yes. They literally stand around in thick gloopy mud, I see no wandering about or interaction. Just peed off horses stood with their bums to the weather chewing on hay. 

When this horse goes out he has a buck & a fart, a good roll, he will graze or groom & play with his companion. 

My other horses live out 24/7 as I have a great field at home that drains beautifully. If they need to come in it's into a barn separated by half height partitions into huge seperate stables.


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## Princess16 (24 February 2015)

stormox said:



			Yes, I only have an acre, including my house, and it is extremely difficult to rent around here. In a perfect world they would be in at night, get fed, mucked out and groomed- then ridden and turned out for a few hours before coming in.
It is much more convenient to ride a horse from a stable than it is from a muddy field too. Also, I wonder how any people whos horses are turned out all the time actually pick feet out (VERY important), and groom properly, checking for injuries etc EVERY DAY?
		
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Mine is kept out 24/7, checked twice a day, feet hoof picked regularly but groomed only once a week in order to protect the oils in his coat because of being out which I would have thought most horse owners would know . Nevertheless his rugs are changed daily so body is fully checked then. We are all not imbeciles that keep ours out.


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## PollyP99 (24 February 2015)

It does always turn into 24/7 vs stabling of any kind.  I don't get why it's always the 24/7 that start this kind of debate though, if you are happy with how you keep yOur horse, good for you.  I really dont see enough  24/7 turnout horses round here being excercised appropriately or even seen to regularly, just because they are out up to there knees I mud doesn't mean rugs shouldn't be changed daily etc.  

I really think there are fields of poor looking horses and ponies with little care outside of the weekend, whose owners think it's fine as they are living naturally (which they are not as they would be free to find a better place to stand out of the wind and mud), I beleive this is much worse than being stabled for half of the day, IMO.

The point is it's my opinion, everyone is entitled to one so why the constant debate.


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## fburton (24 February 2015)

PollyP99 said:



			I don't get why it's always the 24/7 that start this kind of debate though
		
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Was it in this case? That isn't obvious to me.




			I really think there are fields of poor looking horses and ponies with little care outside of the weekend, whose owners think it's fine as they are living naturally (which they are not as they would be free to find a better place to stand out of the wind and mud),
		
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I guess the ones that are outside and suffering are more obvious than the ones that are inside and suffering. (Not that I am saying that being inside or outside necessarily means they are suffering!)




			I beleive this is much worse than being stabled for half of the day, IMO.
		
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Stabled half of the day doesn't sound bad at all to me.


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## supsup (24 February 2015)

I think the 24/7 vs. stabled debate is beside the point. 

What I don't understand is why horse owners (as consumers paying quite a big chunk of money for livery) do not press for alternative yards with more horse-friendly livery arrangements. E.g. large, shared indoor stables for small groups of horses, with access to small all-weather turnout paddocks as an alternative to individual stables. It does not necessarily take more land to build stables that allow horses to be kept in small groups with free access to outdoor space (which does not have to equal green fields with grass, or muddy trashed fields!). I do understand that there are many old facilities where a complete overhaul would be out of the question. But even new builds are still based on the old concept one horse - one stable. 

On the continent, they seem to be much farther along and there are many new facilities that aim to be more horse friendly than the old stable setup. It's come about due to consumer demand. Why is there no such demand in this country? I do think it is because many horse people are traditionalists and cannot picture their horses in other living arrangements.


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## SpringArising (24 February 2015)

I really dont see enough 24/7 turnout horses round here being excercised appropriately
		
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Huh? What does that have to do with anything, and why do they need to be exercised?


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## FairyLights (24 February 2015)

PollyP99 said:



			It does always turn into 24/7 vs stabling of any kind.  I don't get why it's always the 24/7 that start this kind of debate though, if you are happy with how you keep yOur horse, good for you.  I really dont see enough  24/7 turnout horses round here being excercised appropriately or even seen to regularly, just because they are out up to there knees I mud doesn't mean rugs shouldn't be changed daily etc.  

I really think there are fields of poor looking horses and ponies with little care outside of the weekend, whose owners think it's fine as they are living naturally (which they are not as they would be free to find a better place to stand out of the wind and mud), I beleive this is much worse than being stabled for half of the day, IMO.

The point is it's my opinion, everyone is entitled to one so why the constant debate.
		
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Exactly! I'm off out in a minute to bring mine in for the night.


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## PollyP99 (24 February 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Huh? What does that have to do with anything, and why do they need to be exercised?
		
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Not leaving the same piece of land EVER is not a life I would want, that's how some are kept around here, as in that's all they ever see, not ridden, never leave the paddock they are in, chucked  hay over the gate, that's it.  Just as odd  I think in terms of behaviour, was my point.


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## tabithakat64 (24 February 2015)

I have to say I agree that by stabling horses we are preventing them from exhibiting natural behaviour.

The exception to this would be a group of horses kept in a large barn.

 I think the same about horses on individual turnout, those in small muddy paddocks and those who are stabled the majority of the time. All of these prevent natural behaviour being exhibited and yes I do believe all of them are cruel unless needed for medical reasons.

I recognise that many horses are conditioned to being stabled much of the time and may even opt for this if the only turnout provided is unsuitable. 

What really irritates me is that people often say they don't have a choice about turnout and justify keeping a horse stabled 24/7 because their yard limits turnout, for me there is always a choice which is not to have horses.


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## PollyP99 (24 February 2015)

supsup said:



			I think the 24/7 vs. stabled debate is beside the point. 

What I don't understand is why horse owners (as consumers paying quite a big chunk of money for livery) do not press for alternative yards with more horse-friendly livery arrangements. E.g. large, shared indoor stables for small groups of horses, with access to small all-weather turnout paddocks as an alternative to individual stables. It does not necessarily take more land to build stables that allow horses to be kept in small groups with free access to outdoor space (which does not have to equal green fields with grass, or muddy trashed fields!). I do understand that there are many old facilities where a complete overhaul would be out of the question. But even new builds are still based on the old concept one horse - one stable. 

On the continent, they seem to be much farther along and there are many new facilities that aim to be more horse friendly than the old stable setup. It's come about due to consumer demand. Why is there no such demand in this country? I do think it is because many horse people are traditionalists and cannot picture their horses in other living arrangements.
		
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Which part of the continent are we talking about, France for example have a really high percentage of horses kept in 24/7, these are normal riding schools, everyone I went to had almost no land, totally bizarre as land is cheap and plentiful.


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## stormox (24 February 2015)

I never said everyone who keeps a horse out is an imbecile, Princess16.  Nor is everyone who keeps a horse in a stable cruel!! There is more than one 'right way' to keep a horse- all horses are different, as are all owners and their situations.
You just have to compromise, find some way that suits you, your horse and your situation and allow others to do the same....


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## Goldenstar (24 February 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Exactly! So surely, the least we can do is make it as natural as possible for them? 



This is really not a compromise and I think it's a very poor attempt at trying to make light of a horrible situation for a horse. I wouldn't feel happy being shut in my room just because I could see lots going on outside. 



Do you really, honestly, in your heart of hearts, think that your horse would rather be locked in four walls, than be out in a field, in a herd with other horses, free to wander about where and when he wants?
		
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No horse in Britain can wander where it wants a field is just another confined space to a' natural horse ' used to covering huge distances living in different places at different times of year risking starvation in winter if it makes some wrong choices .
I do see some horses that are having a fairly natural life , a livery yard near here has a group of Shetlands in winter they run on a hill with the sheep no supplementary  food , not much human contact I rode past them last week they look well for Shetlands by that I mean non are obese , they come down to the farm and are restricted in summer though.
I think my horses are used to care ,they are used to work they are used to stimulating training and stimulating work most of ours will hunt and have a lot of exercise and fun running around in a big group doing that .
My horses are never bored their lives are varied busy and fun .
I think they are happier with the role the stable has in their lives .
Turned out 24/7 Fatty would dead he simply has to have very restricted access to grass in summer .
J hates rain and cold and gets eaten alive by flys and his eyes are sensitive in summer I am very very anti rugs in summer I would rather stable him a few hours in the worse part of the day .  He comes in and lies straight down .
H would do ok he's tough but he loves the stable ,loves people contact he's very curious he loves to be watching human stuff going on. My horses like contact with us they are happy with people they see us as a group we are part of their little closed herd 
Tatts was feral for two years he was stalled then feral I think that's part of his issue no balance in his conditioning but he likes to spend time with humans and come in in summer as well.
I will never accept that the out 24/7 system is better than the combined system for horses in work.


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## Princess16 (24 February 2015)

stormox said:



			It is much more convenient to ride a horse from a stable than it is from a muddy field too. Also, I wonder how any people whos horses are turned out all the time actually pick feet out (VERY important), and groom properly, checking for injuries etc EVERY DAY?
		
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Erm excuse me but that is very much what you inferred that we don't look after our horses carefully.  I agree some people do just turn out and forget about the day to day care of the horse but please don't tar us all with the same brush . Mine has more human interaction than most in that we spend weekends up there doing chores, planting, poo picking etc  whilst he joins us usually for a nose  he is certainly never left on his own for hours at a time.


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## Goldenstar (24 February 2015)

Princess16 said:



			Erm excuse me but that is very much what you inferred that we don't look after our horses carefully.  I agree some people do just turn out and forget about the day to day care of the horse but please don't tar us all with the same brush . Mine has more human interaction than most in that we spend weekends up there doing chores, planting, poo picking etc  whilst he joins us usually for a nose  he is certainly never left on his own for hours at a time.
		
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So you accept that out 24/7 can be done badly so is it a huge jump to say they the combined system can be done very very well as well as not so well .


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## stormox (24 February 2015)

Princess16 theres a bit of a typo there, only just noticed- 'any' should be 'many'- sorry. I see plenty of well cared for horses out in fields, I also see a lot of scrawny wormy looking ones with bad feet and rain scald! But I also see a lot of well looked after horses in stables, and a lot of neglected ones who don't get skipped out, fed early enough etc.


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## SpringArising (24 February 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			My horses are never bored their lives are varied busy and fun .
H would do ok he's tough but he loves the stable ,loves people contact. My horses like contact with us they are happy with people they see us as a group we are part of their little closed herd.
I will never accept that the out 24/7 system is better than the combined system for horses in work.
		
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I'm not trying to be obtuse here but I don't really understand how you could possibly know that your horses 'love' everything mentioned above. 

And sure, they might lie down in their stables. But that doesn't mean they love it? I've seen all my horses lie down and relax in the field, too. 

I'm not disputing that your horses like human contact. I've had one of two who are very people orientated. But that doesn't mean I think they shouldn't be with their own species. Nothing is a substitute for that, ever.


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## Goldenstar (24 February 2015)

The thing is all the systems at grass ,combined , fully stabled ,are liable to be unpleasant to the horse if they have a bad feckless owner .
IMO Fully stabled is only acceptable for adult horses in full work where there's time and labour available for alot input daily .


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## Goldenstar (24 February 2015)

SpringArising said:



			I'm not trying to be obtuse here but I don't really understand how you could possibly know that your horses 'love' everything mentioned above. 

And sure, they might lie down in their stables. But that doesn't mean they love it? I've seen all my horses lie down and relax in the field, too. 

I'm not disputing that your horses like human contact. I've had one of two who are very people orientated. But that doesn't mean I think they shouldn't be with their own species. Nothing is a substitute for that, ever.
		
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Just swop love for like ,enjoy or whatever similar word you want .
And where have I said I keep my horses away from their own species .


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## GemG (24 February 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			I would have thought it was common sense though that none of us can keep horses or any domestic animal in an environment which is identical to nature's intent.
		
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Common sense, absolutely. 

And agree, yes, it becomes debatable at each extreme.


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## SpringArising (24 February 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Just swop love for like ,enjoy or whatever similar word you want .
And where have I said I keep my horses away from their own species .
		
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			My horses like contact with us they are happy with people they see us as a group we are part of their little closed herd
		
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			H would do ok he's tough but he loves the stable ,loves people contact he's very curious he loves to be watching human stuff
		
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			Tatts was feral for two years [...] but he likes to spend time with humans and come in in summer as well.
		
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I was making a separate statement, although it could have been based on your quotes above.


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## FairyLights (24 February 2015)

just back from putting mione in for the night, warm, dry and rugged with plenty of hay to eat  sadly I have to drive past 2 poor souls who are out 24/7 one wears a headcollar permanently and the other is old and rugged. the rug goes on in October and comes off in April. it stands a lot of the time in a patch of mud with its head down. pooe poor old horse, its straps are dangling round the hind legs getting longer and longer as the winter goes on they were at its hocks and are now near its fetlovks the rug has slipped back and still now one comes. when it snows the farmer who owns the field chucks some hay in. they owners dont come near but seem to be relying on me or the other local horse owners to raise the alarm if   there is anything wrong like a broken leg. its terrible. goodness knows if there are sores under the rug or rubs or if the old horse is thin :-(

sorry for the typos my hands arnt what they were


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## SpringArising (24 February 2015)

FairyLights said:



			just back from putting mione in for the night, warm, dry and rugged with plenty of hay to eat  sadly I have to drive past 2 poor souls who are out 24/7
		
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That's a separate welfare issue. If they were in a stable and owned by the same person they'd probably be standing in crap with nowhere to get away from it! It's not the turnout that's causing possible misery to those horses, it's a bad owner!


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## Pinkvboots (24 February 2015)

ljohnsonsj said:



			Because how can it apply to every single horse. Competition horses for example, that are stabled majority of the time and get turned out in their own paddock. Their welfare is still obviously important to owners/grooms and they are kept better than majority of 'everyday' horses although if you just grouped it under this act, it would suggest that they aren't getting what they are supposed to be. (Wording isn't brill, i know what I mean but wasn't sure how to word it!)
		
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Sorry how are competion horses looked after better than most "everyday" horses? If they are hardly ever turned out and when they are it will be on their own! I think most normal horse owners do a better job of meeting their horses needs than people that think horses are to precious to  spend time in a field with another horse.


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## ridefast (24 February 2015)

Queenbee said:



			But they are not getting what they are supposed to be getting.

Just because they have their own personal stable and their own personal field and are wrapped up in cotton woll, does NOT mean they are getting what they need.  They don't get the opportunity for social interaction.  I'm sorry but a competition horse is still just a horse and as such should have those basic needs met, just as any other horse should.

I'm not quite sure if people with competition horses believe their horse will melt if it lives in any way like a horse should, but if turnout and socialisation with other horses is good enough for carl jesters competition horses then I'm pretty sure it won't harm other competition horses either.
		
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Like!


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## soloequestrian (24 February 2015)

The Act should apply to quite a few horse management practices, and it would probably be very effective except that it's not enforced well at all.  Councils can decide whether they enforce it or not, and none of them have the resources to deal with anything other than blatent animal cruelty, which is generally passed to the RSPCA or other body.  It doesn't work well for many farm animals either due to various loopholes built into the interpretation of the Act (the codes of practice).


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## stormox (24 February 2015)

It might, if a horse used to jumping 1.30 fences was put in a field with usual height fencing! A lot of show jumpers wouldn't risk their horse jumping out.
And quite a lot of competition horses are stallions these days.


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## Goldenstar (24 February 2015)

soloequestrian said:



			The Act should apply to quite a few horse management practices, and it would probably be very effective except that it's not enforced well at all.  Councils can decide whether they enforce it or not, and none of them have the resources to deal with anything other than blatent animal cruelty, which is generally passed to the RSPCA or other body.  It doesn't work well for many farm animals either due to various loopholes built into the interpretation of the Act (the codes of practice).
		
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The 2006 AW act only covers farm animals , horses are not generally considered as farm animals in the UK , ( although they can be in limited circumstances ) so we have having a hypothetical discussion .
Judging by the conditioned accepted for raising many farm animals it's not very likely stabling horses would be prevented if it where.


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## rara007 (24 February 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			The 2006 AW act only covers farm animals , horses are not generally considered as farm animals in the UK , ( although they can be in limited circumstances ) so we have having a hypothetical discussion .
Judging by the conditioned accepted for raising many farm animals it's not very likely stabling horses would be prevented if it where.
		
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Really?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/45/section/1


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## Moomin1 (24 February 2015)

rara007 said:



			Really?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/45/section/1

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GS I'm not sure where you've got that from. The AWA most certainly does not just cover farm animals.


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## Princess16 (24 February 2015)

SpringArising said:



			That's a separate welfare issue. If they were in a stable and owned by the same person they'd probably be standing in crap with nowhere to get away from it! It's not the turnout that's causing possible misery to those horses, it's a bad owner!
		
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Totally agree SA.

Fairy  you are going off topic here. We are talking about horses living out that are clearly well looked after . Unfortunately abuse happens in or out of the stable due to the humans who have a duty of care to look after them properly. That alone is not due to them actually living out. We are talking about horses who are well looked after, fed, watered, seen to by farrier, appropriately rugged, sheltered etc as opposed to said horse cooped up in a box weaving, shaking his head and just hanging his head out of the stable door willing someone to give him some attention .

What you have witnessed unfortunately is another topic altogether.


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## cobgoblin (24 February 2015)

Why does everything have to get so polarised on here? Some horses do well living out 24/7 and some don't.
My cobs should live out very well BUT they know they have nice dry stables so when it's blowing  a gale and sleeting as it has been today, they want to come in for the night. How do I know they want to come in? Well the alacrity with which they come to the gate, the plaintive looks whilst waiting, would be enough for any idiot to understand.
Likewise in the summer they can't wait to get out of the heat and flies during the day.
Most people make the best of the facilities they have. I wouldn't like mine stabled for 24/7, but then again, if we didn't have stables, I wouldn't like them out 24/7 either. We all make decisions for our horses based on feeding needs, weather forecasts, land condition etc. etc. etc. All things that the horses themselves would never think about.
I think horses can be well managed if always stabled as long as they have a dedicated owner, the same for those out 24/7. Most of us choose a mixed method and I certainly don't see any objections from our lot, despite the fact that they have full walls between their stables.


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## Nancykitt (24 February 2015)

cobgoblin said:



			Why does everything have to get so polarised on here? Some horses do well living out 24/7 and some don't.
My cobs should live out very well BUT they know they have nice dry stables so when it's blowing  a gale and sleeting as it has been today, they want to come in for the night. How do I know they want to come in? Well the alacrity with which they come to the gate, the plaintive looks whilst waiting, would be enough for any idiot to understand.
Likewise in the summer they can't wait to get out of the heat and flies during the day.
Most people make the best of the facilities they have. I wouldn't like mine stabled for 24/7, but then again, if we didn't have stables, I wouldn't like them out 24/7 either. We all make decisions for our horses based on feeding needs, weather forecasts, land condition etc. etc. etc. All things that the horses themselves would never think about.
I think horses can be well managed if always stabled as long as they have a dedicated owner, the same for those out 24/7. Most of us choose a mixed method and I certainly don't see any objections from our lot, despite the fact that they have full walls between their stables.
		
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Very well said, cobgoblin. 
My horses are the same; they certainly let us know when they want to come in and when they want to go out. 
They look happy enough to me and seem to enjoy their work (hacking and hunting). I can't say with absolute certainty that they are 'happy', but they definitely didn't appear any happier when they were out 24/7.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (24 February 2015)

stormox said:



			It might, if a horse used to jumping 1.30 fences was put in a field with usual height fencing! A lot of show jumpers wouldn't risk their horse jumping out.
And quite a lot of competition horses are stallions these days.
		
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This. 

My horse is just gelded so jumps out to follow people hacking. Why would I risk him hurting himself or those hacking?!


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## amandaco2 (24 February 2015)

stormox said:



			Yes, I only have an acre, including my house, and it is extremely difficult to rent around here. In a perfect world they would be in at night, get fed, mucked out and groomed- then ridden and turned out for a few hours before coming in.
It is much more convenient to ride a horse from a stable than it is from a muddy field too. Also, I wonder how any people whos horses are turned out all the time actually pick feet out (VERY important), and groom properly, checking for injuries etc EVERY DAY?
		
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Why wouldnt they be checked simply because they live out? Dont really understand this?


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## Neburu (24 February 2015)

If I turned out for even an hour over winter regardless of weather, I would have a horse that would be lame in all legs from nasty mud fever and would probably would have lymphangitis a few times over winter. 

Just because it's more natural doesn't mean it's the right thing to do for every horse, I can turn my horse out to be more natural, but have other aspects of her welfare suffer. So I choose to stable 24/7 to avoid medical issues that happen every winter regardless of what yard I am on. 

It also doesn't help that even if she didn't suffer with nasty mud fever over the winter she refuses to go in muddy paddocks, I end up having a horse rearing at me and pulling free so she doesn't have to go out in it. There is no point me turning her out for her to stand in  a muddy gate way cause she wants to come in.


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## Moomin1 (24 February 2015)

Nancykitt said:



			Very well said, cobgoblin. 
My horses are the same; they certainly let us know when they want to come in and when they want to go out. 
They look happy enough to me and seem to enjoy their work (hacking and hunting). I can't say with absolute certainty that they are 'happy', but they definitely didn't appear any happier when they were out 24/7.
		
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Maybe I've missed something, but I don't see where people are saying that horses HAVE to be out 24/7 to be happy?  I think the debate is more about horses being stuck IN 24/7, rather than having a combined system, or being out all the time.



Nightmare before Christmas said:



			This. 

My horse is just gelded so jumps out to follow people hacking. Why would I risk him hurting himself or those hacking?!
		
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Neburu said:



			If I turned out for even an hour over winter regardless of weather, I would have a horse that would be lame in all legs from nasty mud fever and would probably would have lymphangitis a few times over winter. 

Just because it's more natural doesn't mean it's the right thing to do for every horse, I can turn my horse out to be more natural, but have other aspects of her welfare suffer. So I choose to stable 24/7 to avoid medical issues that happen every winter regardless of what yard I am on. 

It also doesn't help that even if she didn't suffer with nasty mud fever over the winter she refuses to go in muddy paddocks, I end up having a horse rearing at me and pulling free so she doesn't have to go out in it. There is no point me turning her out for her to stand in  a muddy gate way cause she wants to come in.
		
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I think we've established that most people do not have a problem with horses being stabled 24/7 for veterinary reasons.  I think the issue is when horses are stabled for human convenience, or lack of facilities.


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## honetpot (24 February 2015)

I have managed horses for 35 years, in competitive yards, large amounts of land, small a mounts of land and they are extremely adaptable creatures to the way we want to manage them, and what ever system you use its never really natural but we have a duty to adapt what ever system we use to cause as little stress as possible to the horse in our care. Some horses are great at appearing coping with stress and others only need a few stress factors to develop 'stable vices' and stress related illness.
  Most horses seem to need simple things to cope with stress, large amounts of bulky food, companionship, and a routine and an environment where they can switch off and relax and feel safe from threat. Whether we like it or not a horses best friend is another horse even if the other horse is a bit of a bully.


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## Moomin1 (24 February 2015)

Would it be acceptable for a dog to be kept in a crate 23 hours a day, with one hours walk, simply because it is more convenient for the owner to keep it in a crate to stop it messing the place up or chewing the furniture?  Some dogs of course, will cope well from appearance, others won't, but it doesn't make it right.


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## Nancykitt (24 February 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			Maybe I've missed something, but I don't see where people are saying that horses HAVE to be out 24/7 to be happy?  I think the debate is more about horses being stuck IN 24/7, rather than having a combined system, or being out all the time.
		
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Th original post refers to 'long periods of being stabled' so I suppose it depends on how you define that. 
In the depths of winter, mine spend a bit more time indoors than outdoors. Most of the year it's the other way round. 
I think one thing we have to consider is the impact of weather on the land. Our land is clay and waterlogged. The image of the horses galloping around and playing is all very nice but at this time of the year it just isn't happening. They trudge around in the boggy swamp, spending long periods of time standing around. Over in Cheshire where we go hunting, a lot of the land stands up very well to the wet weather and horses turned out there seem to have a better deal. Most of the yards round here severely restrict turnout during the winter because the land just can't take it and needs to be carefully managed to ensure that there's grass in the spring and summer. 
If you put a ban on people keeping horses because they haven't got 'the facilities' (ie, lots and lots of free-draining land) then we'd have to wipe out a good proportion of the county.


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## spotty_pony (24 February 2015)

I am lucky as I keep my horses on a farm and grazing is never limited so I can have mine out 24/7 in summer and out everyday in the winter. I agree though - horses should be allowed to be horses whether they are competition horses are companions. It is not good for their mental health to restrict turnout/social interaction. Mine do have days in when I am riding but they can touch each other over the stable doors and walls so can always interact and they get adequate exercise when not turned out, they never spend more than 2 days in a row without turnout though.


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## SatansLittleHelper (26 February 2015)

Eeeekk..I didn't expect quite as many replies!!
In my OP I wasn't trying to get into a in or out 24/7 debate. I simply pondered how people viewed the Act based on long periods of stabling. By this I mean over 14 hours a day.
My own "PERSONAL OPINION" is that it is grossly unfair to keep a horse cooped up for long periods of time and I cannot fathom ever keeping a horse away from other horses. I'm not against stabling overnight etc and I definitely agree that each horse is an individual and it's care needs must be based on that.
I cannot get my head around a large animal being trapped in a box 23 hours a day because he is expensive/competition blah blah. 
Mine lives out 24/7 with another horse and a large shelter. I would love to have a stable on occasion for if the weather was truly terrible etc but don't have that option right now. This works for me and my horse and we are both happy with this arrangement


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## supsup (26 February 2015)

When I mentioned alternative stable setups on the continent, I was thinking mostly of Germany, Switzerland, Austria. But I think the ideas are also spreading towards the Netherlands and Scandinavia. For examples, do a search for "HIT Aktivstall" on youtube, or google "Laufstall AG". The first is something of a franchise offering building blocks to create a stable system (including automated feeding stations), the second is a control body, checking stables against criteria and awarding stars for  horse-friendliness of the setup. Or just a search for "Aktivstall" or "Laufstall" will bring up lots of examples.


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## Pigeon (26 February 2015)

I think that being stabled 24/7 (apart from ridden work) is horrifically cruel. Not everyone agrees, but after everything I've seen and read I can't really shake that opinion.


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## baylover (26 February 2015)

A owner on my yard keeps her horse in 24 hours a day, she had the horse whisperer out and he said that the horse didn't like going out, so now, he doesn't go out. Ever at all. Myabe on the weekend for an hour or two


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## fburton (26 February 2015)

baylover said:



			... she had the horse whisperer out and he said that the horse didn't like going out, so now, he doesn't go out.
		
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Oh FFS! :mad3:


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## FairyLights (26 February 2015)

SpringArising said:



			That's a separate welfare issue. If they were in a stable and owned by the same person they'd probably be standing in crap with nowhere to get away from it! It's not the turnout that's causing possible misery to those horses, it's a bad owner!
		
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true


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## Princess16 (26 February 2015)

fburton said:



			Oh FFS! :mad3:
		
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My sentiments exactly!

Horse whisperer my eye! Bet he soon took the cash!


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## Jane_Lou (26 February 2015)

My Welsh A has lived out all winter with access to a large shelter. She chooses to spend most of the day and all of the night in there when it is wet , cold or windy, she ventures out only on nice days! She is in a nice big sheltered field with company, she just likes her home comforts!


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## Princess16 (26 February 2015)

Jane_Lou said:



			My Welsh A has lived out all winter with access to a large shelter. She chooses to spend most of the day and all of the night in there when it is wet , cold or windy, she ventures out only on nice days! She is in a nice big sheltered field with company, she just likes her home comforts!
		
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This is exactly the same as my Connie - happy as Larry to come and go as he pleases yet the idiot chooses not to use his shelter in bad weather LOL. I cannot and will not believe that a horse through choice would prefer to be stabled most of the day.


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## baylover (26 February 2015)

Princess16 said:



			My sentiments exactly!

Horse whisperer my eye! Bet he soon took the cash!
		
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I know.... appalling isn't it! how can you leave your horse in all day and all night. Makes me really cross. 
He also told her that her horse likes purple and so now everything she owns is purple!!!


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## SpringArising (26 February 2015)

baylover said:



			I know.... appalling isn't it! how can you leave your horse in all day and all night. Makes me really cross. 
He also told her that her horse likes purple and so now everything she owns is purple!!!
		
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She sounds mentally unstable and a total moron. 

I really hope she gives up horses sharpish.


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## baylover (26 February 2015)

Oh trust me she is nuts and a massive bully. Best steer clear of those people, just a shame on the poor horse!


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## blitznbobs (26 February 2015)

Well mine stayed in today - blowing a hoolie, fields are a biggy mess and rain ishorizontal - hey didn't seem all that stressed - the act is there to give the authorities teeth but they're not going to use it cos you put your horse in a stable occasionally!


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## SpringArising (26 February 2015)

blitznbobs said:



			they're not going to use it cos you put your horse in a stable occasionally!
		
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Of course not! This thread is more about keeping horses in 24/7.


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## smellsofhorse (26 February 2015)

ljohnsonsj said:



			It isn't always a choice,many yards in my area only do individual turnout,
		
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But the owner, the person suposidly caring for the horse, does have an option.
To keep the horse at that yard or a more appropriate one, catering to the horses needs better.


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## Lillybob (26 February 2015)

Part of the degree i'm studying involves studying welfare and I don't personally agree with heavy stabling as I feel it is a welfare problem. Stereotypical behaviours are a symptom of stress and these are NEVER found in the wild and I can't recall any counts of them found in field-kept horses.
Completely not shaming people who stable their horses, but I would never say that because a competition horse has a fancy stable and whatnot, that it's better for it. I would say a horse is probably happier rolling around in mud and playing with other horses. Stabling is sometimes the only practical way to keep a horse and is definitely necessary when a horse is injured or underweight etc and I understand that.
I just don't feel that it a way of keeping a horse that allows them to express natural behaviours. I personally have never stabled my horse and I feel that it is better for her to live the most natural life I can provide as an owner, allowing her to live in a herd and have a nearly 100% grass/hay diet. She is only fed hard feeds as a token after she is ridden as she maintains weight quite well.

In summary, I understand why people stable their horses, but I don't feel it is natural or that it allows them to express their natural behaviour, therefor I personally try to avoid it.

But I would never sham anybody who stabled their horse


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## catroo (26 February 2015)

I don't have an issue with part stabled part turned out, I occasionally bring mine in during the heat of the day in summer (still feels a long way away!) or when it's been raining for ages to give them a chance to dry out.

What I can't stand is individual turnout, for me it's completely unnecessary. I think a lot of turnout issues stem from youngsters being isolated so they never learn correct interaction leading to issues in later life. 

My stallions, colt and geldings all go out together. Yes there's rough and tumble but they love each other's company and even in 30 acres the herd is always together. 

I've previously had to retire my horse of a lifetime due to a field accident when he was in his prime, eight years of hard work down the drain, but I don't regret it and it hasn't changed my view


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## baylover (26 February 2015)

I think there's a difference between individual turn out and being in 24/7. My boy is on individual turn out because another gelding beat the crap out of him. He's next to 4 geldings on one side a mare on the other and has another gelding Infront of him. He has plenty of socialisation without getting attacked, I have none of the worry! I often watch them and him the mare and other gelding meet in the corner for a chat and a groom!

I had an obscene amount if vet bills and rug repair bills that I just couldn't afford to keep paying. He spends his time eating, at no point have I seen him pine for other horses because he has friends around him. The only time the stress comes is if he's left out all alone


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## Moomin1 (26 February 2015)

catroo said:



			I don't have an issue with part stabled part turned out, I occasionally bring mine in during the heat of the day in summer (still feels a long way away!) or when it's been raining for ages to give them a chance to dry out.

What I can't stand is individual turnout, for me it's completely unnecessary. I think a lot of turnout issues stem from youngsters being isolated so they never learn correct interaction leading to issues in later life. 

My stallions, colt and geldings all go out together. Yes there's rough and tumble but they love each other's company and even in 30 acres the herd is always together. 

I've previously had to retire my horse of a lifetime due to a field accident when he was in his prime, eight years of hard work down the drain, but I don't regret it and it hasn't changed my view
		
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I really don't see any problem with individual turnout, adjacent or within sight even of other horses.


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## marmalade76 (26 February 2015)

Queenbee said:



			But they are not getting what they are supposed to be getting.

Just because they have their own personal stable and their own personal field and are wrapped up in cotton woll, does NOT mean they are getting what they need.  They don't get the opportunity for social interaction.  I'm sorry but a competition horse is still just a horse and as such should have those basic needs met, just as any other horse should.

I'm not quite sure if people with competition horses believe their horse will melt if it lives in any way like a horse should, but if turnout and socialisation with other horses is good enough for carl jesters competition horses then I'm pretty sure it won't harm other competition horses either.
		
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Have to agree..


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## JDH01 (26 February 2015)

Having carefully consider all of these arguments  and read every post I am still really happy that my 2 are out 24/7 1st May to end of September and in 24/7 the rest of the year.  They have genuinely ad lib forage when in and fully clipped hunt hard all winter.  I have kept 9 horses over the years on this system and all have shown much less stress than the horses who only hack out lightly all year round.


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## Moomin1 (26 February 2015)

JDH01 said:



			Having carefully consider all of these arguments  and read every post I am still really happy that my 2 are out 24/7 1st May to end of September and in 24/7 the rest of the year.  They have genuinely ad lib forage when in and fully clipped hunt hard all winter.  I have kept 9 horses over the years on this system and all have shown much less stress than the horses who only hack out lightly all year round.
		
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I am not sure what the hacking out lightly and hunting hard all winter part has to do with it?  Are you suggesting that horses kept out 24/7 and only hack out lightly are a lot more stressed than horses kept in 24/7 who go hunting hard all winter?


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## JDH01 (26 February 2015)

In my experience yes as they don't have a routine.  You need to respect this as my experience and not necessarily yours.


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## Moomin1 (26 February 2015)

JDH01 said:



			In my experience yes as they don't have a routine.  You need to respect this as my experience and not necessarily yours.
		
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I don't 'need' to do anything.  However, if that's your experience, then fine.  

I personally think that's a load of rubbish.


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## OwnedbyJoe (27 February 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I will never accept that the out 24/7 system is better than the combined system for horses in work.
		
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I have what comes about as close to "as nature intended" as I think you can really get.. 100 acres, 2 natural watering points, mob of 7 of varying ages, alpha mare.. The only real difference is there is no dominant stallion and they do get wormed.
We have a slow but significant turnover of horses here: I retrain and rehome off the track Standardbreds. In addition we have an Arab, an Anglo, a Welsh X Stockhorse and a Connemara! The Standies mainly come from homes where the majority are yarded (Australian system - walk in shed plus a small sand yard, hay and hard feed twice a day). I am sure they are all very well loved but I have yet to see one that did NOT improve, both physically and mentally, with 24/7 turnout. Their minds improve, their gut improves, and their feet ALL improve. It takes a little while, and it is a bit of a shock to their system for some: some don't know how to talk horse but because all of the others do they learn fairly quickly. Their gut has to adjust but in all cases (so far) they have adapted to the high roughage, low grain diet and end up as very easy keepers because their hindgut is healthy and doing what it has evolved to do. I have NO stable vices (well, they do eat trees..) and 2 who came as apparently confirmed crib biters/windsuckers have stopped.
I also work 2 endurance horses from the paddock: one has completed 100 mile rides.
It IS possible to keep a horse well stabled 24/7, but IMO even when everything is done to the best it can possibly be it is NOT natural, or ideal... Combined is better than stabled 24/7, but even then movement and feeding are sub optimal.


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## OwnedbyJoe (27 February 2015)

Oops: forgot to add: I do have an advantage in that I live i Oz.. The biggest problem with 24/7 turnout in the UK is the UK isn't really designed for it! We have lots of space, lots of dry high fibre feed, and a very low rainfall. The UK has mud, heavily improved pastures designed for dairy cows, and a distinct lack of space!
I'm sure it would be easier to mange 24/7 turnout in the UK if you could all live at the top of a hill on Exmoor with free draining sandy soils and lots of heather..


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## pegasus1986 (27 February 2015)

Mine have been stabled 24/7 the last week due to bad mud fever.


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## SpringArising (27 February 2015)

They have genuinely ad lib forage
		
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Huh? And why is that relevant?


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## Scatterbrain (27 February 2015)

OwnedbyJoe said:



			Oops: forgot to add: I do have an advantage in that I live i Oz.. The biggest problem with 24/7 turnout in the UK is the UK isn't really designed for it! We have lots of space, lots of dry high fibre feed, and a very low rainfall. The UK has mud, heavily improved pastures designed for dairy cows, and a distinct lack of space!
I'm sure it would be easier to mange 24/7 turnout in the UK if you could all live at the top of a hill on Exmoor with free draining sandy soils and lots of heather..
		
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I have to disagree with this. There are loads of free draining sandy soil fields in the UK, my ground included. The fields in any area in the UK can vary from heavy clay, sandy soil, hilly, flat etc. Even fields within a stones throw of each other can have different types of soil IME. What's important is that horse owner's carefully select where they are going to keep their horses, based on suitability of the land. Heavy clay notoriously isn't suitable for keeping livestock out 24/7 during winter months. I wouldn't keep horses out 24/7 standing in a muddy bog and certainly wouldn't keep them stabled 24/7 either as a compromise.


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## marmalade76 (28 February 2015)

JDH01 said:



			Having carefully consider all of these arguments  and read every post I am still really happy that my 2 are out 24/7 1st May to end of September and in 24/7 the rest of the year.  They have genuinely ad lib forage when in and fully clipped hunt hard all winter.  I have kept 9 horses over the years on this system and all have shown much less stress than the horses who only hack out lightly all year round.
		
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My horses 'lightly hack' more than anything else and all live out 24/7/365 and I can assure you that none of them are stressed!


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## amandaco2 (28 February 2015)

Id hate 24 7 confinement for mine. Stuck in a 14x14 box is tiny for such long periods. Id worry about dust in lungs, feet in messy beds, stiff joints, lack of constant grazing motion in muscles.... not to mention mine would be very excitable making ridden work more difficult than it need be. 
I like to make things as easy as I can so for me I have them out as much as possible....
which is 24hrs day.


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## MagicMelon (28 February 2015)

ljohnsonsj said:



			Because how can it apply to every single horse. Competition horses for example, that are stabled majority of the time and get turned out in their own paddock. Their welfare is still obviously important to owners/grooms and they are kept better than majority of 'everyday' horses although if you just grouped it under this act, it would suggest that they aren't getting what they are supposed to be. (Wording isn't brill, i know what I mean but wasn't sure how to word it!)
		
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Hmm... I'd disagree that competition horses have a "better" life than your average horse. Just because its wrapped in cotton wool, goes swimming once a week, gets to stand under heat lamps daily, travel in luxury etc. that does not mean it has a "better" life IMO. All these things go against what a horse would naturally do so IMO actually these horses will be the most stressed mentally, by choice they'd rather be outside with a herd of horses grazing, as nature intended.


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## SpringArising (28 February 2015)

MagicMelon said:



			Hmm... I'd disagree that competition horses have a "better" life than your average horse. Just because its wrapped in cotton wool, goes swimming once a week, gets to stand under heat lamps daily, travel in luxury etc. that does not mean it has a "better" life IMO. All these things go against what a horse would naturally do so IMO actually these horses will be the most stressed mentally, by choice they'd rather be outside with a herd of horses grazing, as nature intended.
		
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Completely agree.


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## spookypony (28 February 2015)

Wow, quite a few Straw Men wandering about on this thread!  

I'll out myself as someone with a small "mud pit" of a paddock. Said paddock has the following features: good natural shelter on 2 of the 3 sides, drains quite well, hay feeder in the most sheltered area. In the worst of the winter, the area nearest the gate (and hay feeder) is quite deep mud, but the rest of the field, though there is no grass, is generally reasonably dry. The immediate surrounds of the hayfeeder are stomped flat (and I put down bedding to assist in soaking up), so the horses are standing mostly out of mud when they are at the feeder. From April to October, the paddock is dry, yet still bare.

There are 3 in the paddock: 2 ponies and one small horse with a lot of Native in her. Two of the three are confirmed laminitis risks. Since being in this field, on very good hay and next to no grass, there have been no problems with this, and though the companion pony is still a bit round, the other two are coming out of the winter spot-on. Though they are rugged only rarely, when it's truly awful, there's been no rainscald. Nor has there been mud fever or stacks of abscesses (1, in all the time I've had any of these horses). The pony that had dodgy frogs before still has somewhat dodgy frogs (improving now that I've changed his supplement), and the ones that had great frogs, still have great frogs. All three are trimmed regularly, have the vet out if there's any problem, have teeth/jabs as needed, and are on a carefully-managed diet. The two ridden horses get saddle fitter and physio, and I have regular lessons.

Still, twice in this last month, I've been reported, first to WHW, then to the SSPCA, for "starving horses in a muddy field". Both inspectors were completely satisfied with what they saw, especially as I do have stables to bring them in, if it were truly necessary! But when it's been blowing a gale with heavy rain, and I've run out in the middle of the night to check, what do I find? Three furry mud-monsters companionably chewing at the hay feeder, toasty warm. When I have brought them in, they have been eager to go out again as soon as possible. It appears that the mud bothers them a heck of a lot less than it bothers me! 

In an ideal world, I would have the whole of the paddock turned into an all-weather turnout, and give them free access to the stables. Actually, no, I would run an all-weather track system with varied surfaces all around the property, and have a smaller paddock and a school. But until I strike it rich, I manage as best I can with the resources I have, and I can be sure that vet, trimmer, and instructor would be quick to say something if there was a real problem.

I think it's easy to generalise based on surface appearances, but to truly assess the way any horse is kept, one needs the full picture. There are clearly a range of strategies that can result in relaxed horses and happy horse-keepers, as long as the horse-keeper is constantly willing to assess and question if the balance between horse's and horse-keeper's interests is ok. I'm generally in favour of more turnout, but the individual situation has to be considered.


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## MagicMelon (28 February 2015)

spookypony said:



			I'll out myself as someone with a small "mud pit" of a paddock.

Still, twice in this last month, I've been reported, first to WHW, then to the SSPCA, for "starving horses in a muddy field". 

In an ideal world, I would have the whole of the paddock turned into an all-weather turnout, and give them free access to the stables.
		
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Oh no that's a shame!  Non-horsey people can be pretty stupid, I remember my neighbour used to get reported frequently because she kept her shetland on a bare paddock with long grass the other side of the fence, they thought it was cruel but the pony was very lami-prone!  I also have a small field, not big enough really for what's on it but I have to make-do (I have been asking around everywhere for local grazing to rent but to no avail so far, have just rehomed one of the horses to make a little more room). What I adore at my place is that when I had my stables built, I had them put on a big hardcore pad which extends out the front so that's where I put their hay feeder, and leave the stable doors open all the time. They love it, they spend probably 80% of their day at the moment standing on the totally dry hardcore munching hay and then going inside for a snooze. Could you maybe look into getting a patch of hardcore spookypony, I couldn't live without it at mine! Keeps the hay dry and clean too


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## Leo Walker (28 February 2015)

I'm very, very, very lucky! My boy lives out 24/7 on 30 acres with about 13 other geldings. They get big bale hay as needed in the winter, and because its a well draining field on sandy soil I can walk through it in trainers if needs be. My other horse is on loan a mile down the road, and his fields get very wet and boggy, so in winter they come in overnight to give the fields and the horses a rest. They both seem happy and content. The one thing I wont do is in 24/7. I had a brief period last winter when he had to be in for a couple of months with only turn out in the round pen  As soon as I could, I turned him away for the winter and had him out 24/7.

If my only option was in 24/7 then I wouldnt keep horses


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## spookypony (28 February 2015)

MagicMelon said:



			Oh no that's a shame!  
 Could you maybe look into getting a patch of hardcore spookypony, I couldn't live without it at mine! Keeps the hay dry and clean too 

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Should have said, twice in the last 6 months, not 1 month! Oops!  Yes, I had an estimate done for a large area of hardcore in the field; it's rather more than I can afford just now, but I can think about ways to accomplish the same thing a bit cheaper. My stables were formerly a double garage: they have a 10m x 10m square area of hard standing in front. My next home investment, I think, will be to have that area fenced in properly, so that I can use that for when the weather is at its worst. Having the other idea costed has at least given me an idea of how much various options might cost. 

Thankfully, the hay stays well dry: I built a feeder out of two tractor tyres (metal rings removed so that no trapping can happen) bolted on top of each other on top of a pallet. The hay stays dry, and on the rare occasions that hooning-around happens, they appear to just bounce off the thing (the sides are nice and high).


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## SatansLittleHelper (4 January 2016)

Given the time of year etc I thought I'd resurrect this to see what others have to say 
I like a good debate


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## Goldenstar (4 January 2016)

Well apart from days traveling to clinics and vets that sort of thing I have kept three of my horses in the last two days for the first time in three years .
One is on box rest after an OP and has been in a month he been hand walked and grazed in the last two weeks and can go out tomorrow, let's hope the weathers nice enough for it to be a pleasant experience for him. 
The other two are in work and we have had three days of non stop torrential rain the already fields are total waterlogged so they are staying in they where doing nothing except standing in the mud in the pouring rain trying to get back in .
So I listened to them kept them in cut back their food and upped their work as soon as we get a break in the weather they will go back out .
Fatty can't be ridden as he's minus a shoes so he's still going out for a while everyday.
Tatts my outside loving care in the community horse is still out but I have barely seen him outside his shed in the last two days .I brought him in on Saturday he stood for three hours happily then asked to go out and walked straight over to his shed and went in he's a funny boy.
It's truly awful here why force them out to stand at the gate trying to get back in better just to work them and that's been a deeply unpleasant experience the last two days and leave them in. 
Next years must have a sheltered hardstanding so they at least have somewhere decent to stand .


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## Mooseontheloose (5 January 2016)

Looking back at some of the past posts as ever there are some pretty strongly held opinions on how we should all behave. We also need to understand that we do not have the wild range, the open savannah, the hillsides with lots of well drained shelter that feral horses have. Living out can often mean a small flat muddy paddock however hard the owner tries to maintain it. We have to do the best we can. Have an open piece in the stable where horses can touch through it and groom each other. Keep youngsters together to have lots of contact. Feed as near nature as you can. 
But, if you once accept that we own horses and keep them for our wishes, we have created an artificial environment for them, just as most horses now are 'artificial' in that they have been specifically bred for certain activities. Unless we own a Prewalski's horse, a zebra or a donkey, really all horses are far removed from their original species.
That is not to say they do not have lots of welfare needs and I think the vast majority of owners do their utmost to meet these. 
As ever, some very judgemental posters.
I would say though that if I left one of my horses out in this weather it would top itself!


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## npage123 (5 January 2016)

OwnedbyJoe said:



			I have what comes about as close to "as nature intended" as I think you can really get.. 100 acres, 2 natural watering points, mob of 7 of varying ages, alpha mare.. The only real difference is there is no dominant stallion and they do get wormed.
We have a slow but significant turnover of horses here: I retrain and rehome off the track Standardbreds. In addition we have an Arab, an Anglo, a Welsh X Stockhorse and a Connemara! The Standies mainly come from homes where the majority are yarded (Australian system - walk in shed plus a small sand yard, hay and hard feed twice a day). I am sure they are all very well loved but I have yet to see one that did NOT improve, both physically and mentally, with 24/7 turnout. Their minds improve, their gut improves, and their feet ALL improve. It takes a little while, and it is a bit of a shock to their system for some: some don't know how to talk horse but because all of the others do they learn fairly quickly. Their gut has to adjust but in all cases (so far) they have adapted to the high roughage, low grain diet and end up as very easy keepers because their hindgut is healthy and doing what it has evolved to do. I have NO stable vices (well, they do eat trees..) and 2 who came as apparently confirmed crib biters/windsuckers have stopped.
I also work 2 endurance horses from the paddock: one has completed 100 mile rides.
It IS possible to keep a horse well stabled 24/7, but IMO even when everything is done to the best it can possibly be it is NOT natural, or ideal... Combined is better than stabled 24/7, but even then movement and feeding are sub optimal.
		
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Your facilities sounds amazing!  I hope your horses are easy to catch, haha


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## DD (5 January 2016)

lots of yards near to me have no winter turn out a\t all. some of the horses dont even get ridden out or lunged. a local yard owners keeps her and her liveries in 24/7 during the winter. hers stay in until spring turn out not ridden led out in hand or lunged or anything. I think it should be illegal.


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## TeamChaser (5 January 2016)

Mooseontheloose what a sensible post, couldn't agree more! Mine are in at the moment but exercised every day and get an hour turn out in arena morning and evening to have a leg stretch, a play and a roll 

Far too many opinionated folk who maintain that stabling is evil and unnatural. It's not ideal but whilst I do rent privately, the land is not mine and I therefore need to be respectful of that. 2-3 weeks in in the worst of the winter won't kill them and they have 24/7 turnout for around 7 months of the yr with 8 acres for just the 2 of them. They've managed to go out nearly every day this autumn/winter up until last few days. You do the best you can

Our domesticated horses are fairly far removed from 'native' these days and individual turn out in a half acre paddock is not keeping them naturally either!


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## rascal (5 January 2016)

I totally agree with those who have said pampered competition horses, are not always happy content horses. They cant interact with other horses,  and are not allowed to live a natural life.
Some race horses never see a field, which is hardly a good lifestyle. Its strange how SOME of the owners and trainers are just starting to see the benefit of turnout. 
I'm not a horse but I know I would soon get fed up of looking at the same walls  all day


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## Nudibranch (5 January 2016)

Not coming down either side of the fence particularly,  but my horses make their opinions quite clear. They have 9 acres on rolling hill in winter, including a 30ft straw bedded 3 sided shelter. If its really awful I bring them in to a half covered yard, 50 x 25 ft with deep straw bed and all the hay they can eat.
They still stand at the gate looking wistfully out at the hill...if I open it they just wander right back out.


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## rachk89 (5 January 2016)

Kind of think it depends on the situation. Like I know a mare with a damaged tendon who only gets to leave her stable twice a day for a 10minutes walk each time. But to do anything else would damage her and she may need put down if she injured herself severely. Is that cruel? No.

However I also know a dealer nearby who keeps her horses in all day no matter what as it's too much time to put them all out. They are all fit but none of them looked overly happy. One bit my dad quite badly. We didn't buy from her.


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## zoelouisem (6 January 2016)

After having the 2nd set of staples taken out of my competition pony in the last 6 months today. because she tried yet again escaping and bringing herself in from the field she's now happy in her stable.
We've tried her individually in a pair with others, with hay feeding her in the field she jumps out regularly when in the electric fence field. She paces drops weight and gets upset when she's out even for half an hour. I've come to the conclusion she's better off in her box. Even when I put her loose in the sand school she jumped out!  
So it's not right that all horses should be out all the time with others she hates others!


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## Peggs (6 January 2016)

I'm afraid I haven't read all the responses, (I'm supposed to be revising!), to put a different perspective on it, are the horses who are stabled for long periods actually in a state that is termed 'helplessness'. Helplessness in horses may actually be deemed as a positive by some as the horses appear apathetic and lethargic and so are easier to handle. Its almost like a state of depression for them and is contrary to what people may think as they see a horse showing no signs of stereotypic behaviour therefore must be ok.

There's evidence in a previous post of a horse who appears to love her stable (Im really sorry I dont mean to pick on you but its the one of the ones I read!), is this because in her early days she was stabled a lot and the additional stimuli of being out in a field is too overwhelming? Maybe she is ok out competing because she has learned and grown with these kind of stimuli and given boundaries to rely on imposed by humans. 

I think as far as the welfare act 2006 is concerned it needs to be revamped to encompass growing evidence of reduced stereotypic behaviours seen in horses with such things as stable mirrors and dual aspect stables.

I'm not against stabling, we can't all be lucky enough to have vast acres of grass, especially if you're in arable areas and health and medical issues do require box rest in some cases. I do think we have a duty to our horses to make the experience of being in a stable as stress free as possible.


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## Peggs (6 January 2016)

Can I just add to my previous post,  little bit of a back track I suppose! - Im not saying all horses are in a state of helplessness but in some circumstances it could be inferred, especially if stabling for a long length of time has become life long issue for them.


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## elliefiz (6 January 2016)

There's a few points raised that I find interesting having read a few pages from the start.
Firstly this notion that competition horses are kept better than everyone else's. Granted they will have a pretty high level of human care, ie feed, decent bedding, heaps of rugs and no doubt a fancy hanging basket or flower pot outside the stable. To a human it looks all so nice and perfect, one would want to move in themselves! But a horse's basic needs are none of the above really. They exist quite happily without any of the fancy trappings as long as they have other horses for company, water and forage. They like to move about. A study tracked feral horses in Australia and found they travelled nearly 20km a day. As foragers (not grazers as people usually think) their bodies are designed to travel long distances daily. To be cooped up in a stable with maybe 1 or 2 hours exercise a day isn't healthy no matter what we try to convince ourselves. We can convince ourselves that horses have changed and developed over the years but physically our horses have not evolved to the point of living fairly sedentary lifestyles, they share all the same characteristics of their feral relations. It doesn't surprise me that world wide success aside, Carl Hesters competition horses tend to have longevity in their careers and seemingly above average soundness considering the demands of top level dressage on the horse's body. I personally believe that it's not a case of just luck and can be attributed to his attitude of letting horses be horses with regular turn out and company. 

There is a very interesting experiment being undertaken at the moment which entails producing a flat racehorse of very good breeding in a very natural way with the aim of racing in grade 1 races. The study has attracted some huge names keen to advise and learn from the study, it will be really interesting to see the results. Turn out, amongst other things, plays a big part of the study. Racing yards, despite what others have said would most certainly see the highest occurances of stable vices, stomach ulcers and stressy horses. There are yards in areas like Lambourn, famous for its racing yards, with yards of 40/50 boxes on 2 to 3 acre sites. There is no turn out facilities, period. It's deeply sad. Yes competition horses and racehorses have a job to do and these horses are just spokes in a wheel of a giant industry that generates a lot of money but they are living creatures. They aren't bicycles which can be left the garage when not in use. We at least owe them a half decent standard of living. And by that I don't mean that horses need to be out 24/7, it's not convenient for someone with a job and limited time to be wrestling a muddy horse out of a field to ride in the pitch black at 7pm in the middle of winter. But there also should be a balance. I know livery yards close to urban areas are a dying breed. I know that many exist on tiny plots with far too many horses so that the overheads can be paid. And as a result there's nowhere to put the horses day to day throughout winter. In which case they should do away with their muddy paddock altogether and lay down all weather turn out paddocks instead which can be used year round and feed the horses hay in them. Many of the yards in Germany I have visited have something like this for winter turnout as they don't always have huge amounts of land. If the yard only has 10/12 acres and 16/18 horses there isn't going to be enough grass to last very long even in summer, so trying to preserve paddocks is a futile exercise.


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## Mooseontheloose (6 January 2016)

I don't think there's any doubt that horses kept as 'naturally' as possible in this very unnatural world we live in is what we should all be aiming for. 
But, unless one owns rolling acres and not many of us do in the UK, we have to keep our horses on what are small patches of land which do not allow them the room to roam, as they would in the wild. Studies show that wild horses have territories of many square miles.  
Does this mean that only the very wealthy landed gentry should have horses? I'm not playing the inverted snobbery card here, just wondering what all these owners who work their socks off to keep their horses, perhaps at livery or on small patches of land which they diligently poo pick, top, fertilize, fence and so on are meant to do?
I am currently extremely privileged and lucky to have a large, sloping, light land field with a shelter to keep my elderly horses on which even after this rain is still without too much mud. In the worst of the weather they'll be out on the hill foraging and happy. BUT, in the past I've been based on clay, and regardless of the acreage it would be horrendous mud fever inducing unwalkeable in by now. The horses would stand by the gate and be desperate to come in. 
I do think it is becoming much more common for competition horses to be given more field time and I think the life of a young race horse, stuck in it's stable 23 hours a day must be pretty grim, but then they wouldn't enjoy standing in clay mud hock deep either. 
It's not a perfect world for horses, but as I said in an earlier post, the majority of owners do their absolute best.


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## Nativelover (6 January 2016)

I completely agree, most owners do the best they can with the circumstances they have. I am one of those, I've put a few posts on here about my lack of turnout. I can see clearly the horses would prefer being out for even just a morning or afternoon more frequently than 2 x full days per week. But how do you convince the YO, of the yards who severely restrict turnout, to change their ways??
Would this Act have any influence if it was enforced? 
Would it have any bearing on planning decisions to provide all weather tirnout areas?
What I am aware of is how more common it is to find yards close fields completely for a long winter. Citing the weather as the reason, but don't feel any responsibility to provide alternatives.


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## Mooseontheloose (6 January 2016)

I think you've raised a very serious point. The climate is changing. We are getting warmer, wetter winters. We need to start thinking now how we are going to cope in the future, indeed, if we can cope.
Part of my land is under water, as a Yard owner I can't trash those fields and my elderly herd (mine and other people's) is settled and happy and putting strangers in on a short term basis is not an option.
So I have a hideous wet bog, that some can have a run round in and some concrete they can walk on.
We do need to start paying real attention, both as owners and yard owners, how we are going to cope if, as predicted, winters will get wetter and windier.
Everything gets exercised or a leg stretch of some sort every day. They look good and are touch wood healthy and happy. But I'm lucky, I have room to do it.
Do we start putting a limit on how many horses one can have per acre? Raise the cost of livery to include putting in a drained, clean paddock or pen for people to use? In the end a lot of it comes down to money.  But we also need to be imaginative and pro-active.
But, are the owners who want to use their yard's paddocks regardless of the wet prepared to foot the bill to restore it in the spring? Or pay for extra hay while fields have to be rested? I'm not accusing anyone of anything but it's not always straight forward and simple.
I would like to think that this is an exceptional winter but I don't think that any longer.


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## sandy3924 (6 January 2016)

I always read these threads with interest.  I absolutely understand the importance of turnout and try to get my gelding out everyday even if its just for a couple of hours. From April to November he can stay out 24/7.  However if we are debating the rights and wrongs of restricting grazing and stabling in these incredibly wet conditions,  then then I would consider all the other unnatural things we do with horses .  we travel them around in a metal crate where the noise must be intolerable and the prospect of being locked in a tiny space totally alien to a horse. We put a saddle on them and a bit in their mouths and then we sit on their backs. For a prey animal to even allow this is remarkable. We nail metal to their feet, we geld them, we sell them on and rip them away from long held friendships without a second thought.  So actually keeping a horse stabled due to the atrocious weather conditions   really isn't that bad if you take into consideration every other 'unnatural' practices we force on our horses. Of course we all try and do our very best for our Equine friends even if sometimes we have to compromise.


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## express_75 (6 January 2016)

sandy3924 said:



			I always read these threads with interest.  I absolutely understand the importance of turnout and try to get my gelding out everyday even if its just for a couple of hours. From April to November he can stay out 24/7.  However if we are debating the rights and wrongs of restricting grazing and stabling in these incredibly wet conditions,  then then I would consider all the other unnatural things we do with horses .  we travel them around in a metal crate where the noise must be intolerable and the prospect of being locked in a tiny space totally alien to a horse. We put a saddle on them and a bit in their mouths and then we sit on their backs. For a prey animal to even allow this is remarkable. We nail metal to their feet, we geld them, we sell them on and rip them away from long held friendships without a second thought.  So actually keeping a horse stabled due to the atrocious weather conditions   really isn't that bad if you take into consideration every other 'unnatural' practices we force on our horses. Of course we all try and do our very best for our Equine friends even if sometimes we have to compromise.
		
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Agree with this.  As much as I like mine out as much as possible, the land just isn't allowing.  
They are warm, dry, happy, plenty of hay, get turned out in the yard every evening, ridden / lunged/ loose schooled as much as possible during the week (I work full time) and hacked the weekends or mooch around the yard. Hopefully we can all enjoy a decent spring.


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## Goldenstar (6 January 2016)

I just back from a local yard were I had a lesson .
I would say they have between 25 and 30 horses and they have good livery grazing for a stabled at night yard by that I mean they offer no grass livery it's a horses in work type of yard .
There were four horses out in two two small very sloping paddocks , and the big fields which are flat are literally like lakes with little bits of grass peaking through .
What can the YM do when it's like that even if she allows turnout you simply could not use those fields it would be not safe and I can't see why you would want to .
It's a yard where you always see lots of horses in fields when you go .
I drove through floods across roads to get there .
I do think we will have to think about changing the way we manage horses I am glad mine are in work because it does make it easier in some ways .


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## Brightbay (6 January 2016)

Possibly because I live in a very wet area (west of Scotland), I have been thinking about this for quite a few years and have started to plan and develop.

Instead of investing in expensive barns and stables, I have put what available cash I have to making a good all weather outdoor space.  There is a shelter big enough for three horses, there is a hard standing area for hay and there is an all weather track so that the horses can move around freely, socialise and "browse" on several different kinds of forage that I put out.

So I don't have to restrict their ability to move and have normal social contact, I don't have to force them to lie on their own poo, they don't have to eat dusty hay in an indoor space and they don't have to be overrugged because shelter is always available.

I could have spent the money building lovely individual stables, but I didn't, because I don't want my horses in solitary confinement because the climate has changed - their needs haven't 

We still have access to 20 acres of grassland, but in winter at least they can have a dry area - that still has hills, different surfaces and nice views and choice. IT also has the added advantage of being available in summer for the ones who can't tolerate grass turnout.

I think we need to stop thinking in terms of "turnout = grass" and more in terms of "turnout = space to move and socialise" - the horses need forage, movement and company, not "grass".


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## Goldenstar (6 January 2016)

Disagree that horses don't need grass horses are designed to eat grass and they do best with access to grass even if it is restricted .
We need to increase stocking levels One acre one horse won't do it any more in most areas .
We need plans to provide exercise when hard standings and things like that are used turnout in a school or a hard standing is not healthy on a regular basis when exercise is not being given as well .
Horses need work to replace the large areas they are designed to move in nature .


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## elliefiz (6 January 2016)

Brightbay said:



			Possibly because I live in a very wet area (west of Scotland), I have been thinking about this for quite a few years and have started to plan and develop.

Instead of investing in expensive barns and stables, I have put what available cash I have to making a good all weather outdoor space.  There is a shelter big enough for three horses, there is a hard standing area for hay and there is an all weather track so that the horses can move around freely, socialise and "browse" on several different kinds of forage that I put out.

So I don't have to restrict their ability to move and have normal social contact, I don't have to force them to lie on their own poo, they don't have to eat dusty hay in an indoor space and they don't have to be overrugged because shelter is always available.

I could have spent the money building lovely individual stables, but I didn't, because I don't want my horses in solitary confinement because the climate has changed - their needs haven't 

We still have access to 20 acres of grassland, but in winter at least they can have a dry area - that still has hills, different surfaces and nice views and choice. IT also has the added advantage of being available in summer for the ones who can't tolerate grass turnout.

I think we need to stop thinking in terms of "turnout = grass" and more in terms of "turnout = space to move and socialise" - the horses need forage, movement and company, not "grass".
		
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This times 100!! Sounds like a great set up. As you say, the climate has changed, the horses needs haven't. Yes some yards have probably been shocked this year by how wet their fields are and been forced to close them for the first time ever. However local to me are loads of yards who have shut fields all winter for years now and have made no effort in the interim to address the issue. If you are a livery there, the fields are closed for 3 months and that's just tough luck. Oh and no turn out in the school either as the surface will get damaged. Instead of voting with one's feet and giving custom to yards where the horses well being is a higher priority, most people suck it up in silence and spend 3 months moaning about the high cost of bedding and haying a horse 24/7. Yards will only change if they have to to keep their customers.


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## Brightbay (6 January 2016)

elliefiz said:



			This times 100!! Sounds like a great set up. As you say, the climate has changed, the horses needs haven't. Yes some yards have probably been shocked this year by how wet their fields are and been forced to close them for the first time ever. However local to me are loads of yards who have shut fields all winter for years now and have made no effort in the interim to address the issue. If you are a livery there, the fields are closed for 3 months and that's just tough luck. Oh and no turn out in the school either as the surface will get damaged. Instead of voting with one's feet and giving custom to yards where the horses well being is a higher priority, most people suck it up in silence and spend 3 months moaning about the high cost of bedding and haying a horse 24/7. Yards will only change if they have to to keep their customers.
		
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What about all the countries in the world where grass pasture isn't available?  
Horses need constant access to forage.  Most forage is preserved grass - the freshness of the grass isn't really an issue.  Grass is a complete red herring, and seems to be the main reason that people end up getting stuck in this "Horse needs grass, grass is now mud, horse must now live in stable 24/7 until grass returns, grass has returned but when I turn horse out he goes bonkers and may injure himself, so he must stay in" dilemma.

Horses need access to appropriate forage, companionship and space to move.  I would love to say our group spends the winter galloping across the 20 acres of hillside with the wind in their manes, but they mostly spend it ambling between the stream and the hay without touching the boring winter grass.  On the basis of this, I believe spending it ambling along an all weather track munching on big bales of dried out grass with their pals is a reasonable substitute.

Since it also means their feet get nicely conditioned to a variety of surfaces so they don't need hoof protection, we're all winners in this game


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## Goldenstar (6 January 2016)

No grass is not a red herring .
The horse gut works best when eating grass not dried grass .
I have worked in countries where there's not grass and they have a much higher colic rate than you see here .


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## luckyoldme (6 January 2016)

Brightbay said:



			Possibly because I live in a very wet area (west of Scotland), I have been thinking about this for quite a few years and have started to plan and develop.

Instead of investing in expensive barns and stables, I have put what available cash I have to making a good all weather outdoor space.  There is a shelter big enough for three horses, there is a hard standing area for hay and there is an all weather track so that the horses can move around freely, socialise and "browse" on several different kinds of forage that I put out.

So I don't have to restrict their ability to move and have normal social contact, I don't have to force them to lie on their own poo, they don't have to eat dusty hay in an indoor space and they don't have to be overrugged because shelter is always available.

I could have spent the money building lovely individual stables, but I didn't, because I don't want my horses in solitary confinement because the climate has changed - their needs haven't 

We still have access to 20 acres of grassland, but in winter at least they can have a dry area - that still has hills, different surfaces and nice views and choice. IT also has the added advantage of being available in summer for the ones who can't tolerate grass turnout.

I think we need to stop thinking in terms of "turnout = grass" and more in terms of "turnout = space to move and socialise" - the horses need forage, movement and company, not "grass".
		
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i think thats briliant, putting the horses needs first!


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## Mooseontheloose (6 January 2016)

Brightbay, sounds like you have a lovely set up, but I think the problem is more what to do in these very high density horse areas where there simply aren't twenty acres and barns, or if there are they cost several million.
To put the cat among the pigeons and I'm anticipating some of the replies, my non horsey husband has just had a look at this thread and was heard to mutter, quite loudly actually - 'First world problem, I know people who'd happily live in your field shelter'. He may have a point!


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## Goldenstar (6 January 2016)

Mooseontheloose said:



			Brightbay, sounds like you have a lovely set up, but I think the problem is more what to do in these very high density horse areas where there simply aren't twenty acres and barns, or if there are they cost several million.
To put the cat among the pigeons and I'm anticipating some of the replies, my non horsey husband has just had a look at this thread and was heard to mutter, quite loudly actually - 'First world problem, I know people who'd happily live in your field shelter'. He may have a point!
		
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It is a first world problem but it's a problem none the less horses are going to get more expensive to look after and we will have space for fewer of them if wetter winters become the norm and land becomes built on to build extra houses that we clearly need ,something will have to give .
I suspect it will have to be the number of horses in the country .


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## Cortez (6 January 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			It is a first world problem but it's a problem none the less horses are going to get more expensive to look after and we will have space for fewer of them if wetter winters become the norm and land becomes built on to build extra houses that we clearly need ,something will have to give .
I suspect it will have to be the number of horses in the country .
		
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Is this not already happening? All those unwanted horses filling up the rescue centres....


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## ycbm (6 January 2016)

Dupe


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## ycbm (6 January 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			No grass is not a red herring .
The horse gut works best when eating grass not dried grass .
I have worked in countries where there's not grass and they have a much higher colic rate than you see here .
		
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What else were they fed, though? Countries with no grass also tend to have no hay. I've been on a yard abroad with no hay and they got a lot of colic. And they may get more colic but I'll bet they don't get much laminitis/IR/ems/grass sickness.



Goldenstar said:



			Disagree that horses don't need grass horses are designed to eat grass and they do best with access to grass even if it is restricted .
We need to increase stocking levels One acre one horse won't do it any more in most areas .
We need plans to provide exercise when hard standings and things like that are used turnout in a school or a hard standing is not healthy on a regular basis when exercise is not being given as well .
Horses need work to replace the large areas they are designed to move in nature .
		
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I don't think horses did evolve to eat grass. I think they evolved to eat large quantities of scrub and walk a long way to find it. Wild horses with access to grass stop moving, eat, and get all the foot problems that domestic horses get. I agree with you completely on the exercise.


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## Copperpot (6 January 2016)

All I know is that when my horse was on a "posh" yard where he was, what many consider pampered, he was as miserable as sin. A bit of rain and he had to stay in all day. I dread to think how long he would have been kept in this winter. Now he's living the life of an actual horse and free to wander 24/7 and play and groom with my other 2, he's happy. Muddy, hairy and not at all pampered, but happy.


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## Goldenstar (6 January 2016)

Cortez said:



			Is this not already happening? All those unwanted horses filling up the rescue centres....
		
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Yes sort of but it seems to me that most ( not all )of the horses in rescue centres are there because of breeding of poor quality stock .
As land pressure increases livery supply will drop costs will then rise and then those horses will be homeless horses that where in good hands .
I am pessimistic about the future .
I think people getting excited about other people keeping their horses stabled will be 
the least of our worries .
ATM livery costs does often not reflect the value of the land it uses in the same way a hotel room does ,when it starts to it's not going to be nice .


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## MotherOfChickens (6 January 2016)

I agree GS, its not going to be pretty and we'll return to horses being only for the (much) better off. Haven't decided yet if thats such an awful thing (might mean less dross bred in the first place, riding schools etc might make something of a comeback, leases will become more common and novices less likely to buy right from the start. The dedicated will still find a way though!) but also don't think it will happen in our life time.


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## Pedantic (6 January 2016)

Prancer and Vixen said:



			But they are not getting what they are supposed to be getting.

Just because they have their own personal stable and their own personal field and are wrapped up in cotton woll, does NOT mean they are getting what they need.  They don't get the opportunity for social interaction.  I'm sorry but a competition horse is still just a horse and as such should have those basic needs met, just as any other horse should.

I'm not quite sure if people with competition horses believe their horse will melt if it lives in any way like a horse should, but if turnout and socialisation with other horses is good enough for carl jesters competition horses then I'm pretty sure it won't harm other competition horses either.
		
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I agree with this.


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## TheMule (6 January 2016)

I got fed up of having to keep my horses in a way that didn't sit comfortably with me, decided to think outside the box and they now live out in a little herd on a local farm. Everyone around here says it's hard to find 24/7 turnout. Well, it's not, if you try!
 They are competition horses, to a decent amateur level (BE Intermediate/SJ Fox). They are happy, healthy horses who go out and do a job.


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## Mooseontheloose (7 January 2016)

Well, this morning my outdoor ones are huddled in the field shelter and I 'm not sure what good would be achieved by turning out my indoor ones, except perhaps to give them swimming lessons.
They'll all get a leg stretch but honestly, they're not even putting their heads out!


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## julie111 (7 January 2016)

My cob lives out 24/7, I moved him from a small DIY yard about 5 weeks ago as all the horses were having to stay in. The rain is a pain in the bum but I would rather him out than in, he is in a herd of 10 in big fields with very high hedges.


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## MagicMelon (7 January 2016)

SpringArising said:



			It doesn't, and that's why a heck of a lot of horses who are kept in for long periods of time throughout the day develop stable vices and OCD behaviours.
		
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This. Even if horses are stabled beside other ones, this is not allowing them to display normal behaviours. I find it amazing the horse world gets away with keeping horses cooped up for such long periods of time, if people did the same to dogs or cats in this country they would get done for cruelty.


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## minesadouble (7 January 2016)

Things need to be looked at from the point of view of the individual horse. We have some living out and some in. One of our TBs goes nuts if left in all day the other cannot bear bad weather and literally hides his head in the corner of the stable when you go in with a headcollar. The second horse would happily spend all Winter in his stable if he were allowed too. In weather like this he has to be dragged to the field!


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## Mooseontheloose (7 January 2016)

Beware Minesadouble, some of the more militant 24/7ers will accuse you of brainwashing him into thinking he doesn't like going out! 
There's a happy medium and the art of the possible. My low lying fields are currently flooding. The river is over it's banks. It's beauitful in the summer and the horses are out there full time. It's simply not possible now. I can only do what is practical and sensible.
I don't mind that the ground gets churned up, it will recover. I do mind that they'll get mud fever, soaking, miserable, possible rain scald, for what? They're domestic animals. 
I have no stereotypical behaviour, very open stables, happy horses from two to thirty three. Why should I feel guilty that some days they only get a leg stretch!


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## minesadouble (7 January 2016)

Hahaha, well I can't be accused of mollycoddling or brainwashing as I have an 18 year old TB mare living out 24/7 - Unrugged too!!! She is as happy in the field as the bad weather hater is in his stable


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## luckyoldme (7 January 2016)

TheMule said:



			I got fed up of having to keep my horses in a way that didn't sit comfortably with me, decided to think outside the box and they now live out in a little herd on a local farm. Everyone around here says it's hard to find 24/7 turnout. Well, it's not, if you try!
 They are competition horses, to a decent amateur level (BE Intermediate/SJ Fox). They are happy, healthy horses who go out and do a job.
		
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I agree with this.
my horse was the worst when i got him, i posted on here about the problems i had and got slated for keeping him on his own. The problem was he was poorly socialised and every time he got near another horse he just have to have a taste,
Seven years on he is on 24/7 turnout in a steady group and it could nt be better. Theres no school, no toilet or anything that a lot of people look for , but for me its worth it just to have the peace of mind that in the larger proportion of time when im not there he is happy and content..the cribbing and fence walking are history.
I will eventually have another horse and if it turns out to be a wuss and need a stable its there, but that would be a last resort for me.


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## Tnavas (7 January 2016)

SpringArising said:



			It doesn't, and that's why a heck of a lot of horses who are kept in for long periods of time throughout the day develop stable vices and OCD behaviours.
		
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Not the case at all - very few develop any bad vices when stabled for long periods of time.

I've worked with stabled horses for many decades - in yards where 100 or more horses are stabled 24/7, 365 days of the year.

I've also seen countless horses turned out on strip grazing areas that are not much bigger than half a dozen stables joined together or no bigger than a dressage arena - they cannot exercise themselves - but says the owner - "they live out". I currently pass three horses every day that are in a miniscule area - the paddock is filthy and though the horses get a new strip of grass everyday the fence is moved behind them as well. Just as cruel as being stabled for long periods!


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## HashRouge (7 January 2016)

I wonder if one of the (possible) solutions might be an increased use of track systems. A local yard had a track system built during the summer which allows them to avoid the problem of wet, muddy fields (they are on heavy clay). They haven't even had to have it surfaced, they just scraped it back to the bedrock (which admittedly wouldn't work everywhere) and as far as I know it is holding up well. This is a yard that, previously, used to close its fields for months at a time because the land just couldn't cope with horses on it over winter. Now they can have 24/7 turnout on the track year round. I suppose the initial problem is the cost of setting up the track, but I do think that when it's done, it would solve lots of problems for many yards.


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## EQUIDAE (7 January 2016)

Dogs sleep in dens so crate training a dog is not seen as cruel, however we would call it cruel for someone to leave a dog in a crate for 23 hours a day (someone posted about their neighbour kennelling their dogs all day being wrong too). Horses are herd, and nomadic animals but some see no issue with them being stabled for 23 hours a day - something that goes completely against their nature...


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## Cortez (7 January 2016)

Pretty much everything we do with horses goes against their nature, so that argument does not hold up. Stabling horses without sufficient exercise, whether that is ridden, loose or turned out, is a bad practice. If their management includes a balance of energy in = energy out then horses generally do very well.


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## ester (7 January 2016)

Tnavas said:



			Not the case at all - very few develop any bad vices when stabled for long periods of time.

I've worked with stabled horses for many decades - in yards where 100 or more horses are stabled 24/7, 365 days of the year.

I've also seen countless horses turned out on strip grazing areas that are not much bigger than half a dozen stables joined together or no bigger than a dressage arena - they cannot exercise themselves - but says the owner - "they live out". I currently pass three horses every day that are in a miniscule area - the paddock is filthy and though the horses get a new strip of grass everyday the fence is moved behind them as well. Just as cruel as being stabled for long periods!
		
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Well only if your stable is the size of an arena surely?

I think more tracks would be an excellent way to go, for winter and summer!


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## Tnavas (7 January 2016)

Cortez said:



			Pretty much everything we do with horses goes against their nature, so that argument does not hold up. Stabling horses without sufficient exercise, whether that is ridden, loose or turned out, is a bad practice. If their management includes a balance of energy in = energy out then horses generally do very well.
		
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Agree whole heartedly.


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## crabbymare (7 January 2016)

I think we need to work on the principle that in a perfect scenario they would live out and be able to roam freely in a herd. but we also need to accept that although we want to do the best we can to keep them in this way there are not many places offering livery with 365 turnout and in many cases farmers in very wet areas will not want their fields used in winter so owners need to adapt the best they can and make sure the horses are managed so that they get plenty of exercise (if fields are closed) and are not left standing in all the time. does anyone know if putting in tracks in places that have clay soil would need planning permission as it will involve digging out the earth and putting in a base? If this weather carries on people with horses in the affected areas will have a choice of mud and swamp fields for turnout or horses with very restricted turnout or the best livery yards will have tracks or turnout areas and put their prices up to cover the cost of the building and upkeep which will price out many people who would love to have those facilities


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