# Do you take colour into account when choosing a stallion?



## bakewell (22 November 2014)

Curious on opinions, would you evaluate colour as affecting saleability of offspring in the current (depressing) market?

Specifically, would you disregard a stallion on the basis of colour or deliberately look for one that passes on a trait? (dilution or tobiano say).

Does the type of horse affect that choice? (hypothetical example, coloured WB fine but prefer a solid cob)

Please weigh in with any opinions/ anecdotes you've made a decision based on this. 

(I realise a good horse is never a bad colour, but also that breeding is with an eye to producing a calculated result)

Thank-you; very interested to hear input.


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## Meowy Catkin (22 November 2014)

Knowing your colours is essential when breeding frame overos as it is lethal in it's homozygous form (OLWS). 

I always think that the desired colour should be the cherry on the cake. Everything else must be right first.

With arabs, they should have dark skin if you want to do well showing, avoiding breeding a maximum sabino is wise. 

In the future, if I decided to breed from my grey I would ideally want a chestnut foal as it's my favourite horse colour. She is homozygous for chestnut and heterozygous for grey, so if I used a chestnut stallion, it would be 50/50 whether i got a chestnut or chestnut/grey foal. Chestnut is a common colour, so I could find a stallion in that colour that matches her/improves her and has a good temperament, performance record etc... If I was going for a rarer, fancier colour then it becomes much harder as you have less choice, eg Double dilutes.


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## bakewell (22 November 2014)

Faracat said:



			Knowing your colours is essential when breeding frame overos as it is lethal in it's homozygous form (OLWS).
		
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I've also seen some research to suggest that the silver (as in silver dapple) causes eye problems due to the effect on formation of protein.



Faracat said:



			I always think that the desired colour should be the cherry on the cake. Everything else must be right first.

With arabs, they should have dark skin if you want to do well showing, avoiding breeding a maximum sabino is wise. 

In the future, if I decided to breed from my grey I would ideally want a chestnut foal as it's my favourite horse colour. She is homozygous for chestnut and heterozygous for grey, so if I used a chestnut stallion, it would be 50/50 whether i got a chestnut or chestnut/grey foal. Chestnut is a common colour, so I could find a stallion in that colour that matches her/improves her and has a good temperament, performance record etc... If I was going for a rarer, fancier colour then it becomes much harder as you have less choice, eg Double dilutes.
		
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I love chestnut, especially the flaming deep ones. However I do think the "chestnut mare" thing still persists in some people's heads. I wonder if the greater expression of white does (perhaps subconsciously) affect things like dressage scoring... ie insufficiently sombre or not as easy to accurately register movement.


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## Moya_999 (22 November 2014)

bakewell said:



			Curious on opinions, would you evaluate colour as affecting saleability of offspring in the current (depressing) market?

Specifically, would you disregard a stallion on the basis of colour or deliberately look for one that passes on a trait? (dilution or tobiano say).

Does the type of horse affect that choice? (hypothetical example, coloured WB fine but prefer a solid cob)

Please weigh in with any opinions/ anecdotes you've made a decision based on this. 

(I realise a good horse is never a bad colour, but also that breeding is with an eye to producing a calculated result)

Thank-you; very interested to hear input.
		
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Simple answer yes I do along with breed temperament and looks and confermation and stride.


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## Spring Feather (22 November 2014)

Yes I do take colour into account when I breed my mares.


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## Alec Swan (22 November 2014)

I always used to take colour in to consideration,  but now and were we still breeding,  then no,  I wouldn't.  Colour now would be my very last consideration.

Alec.


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## mynutmeg (22 November 2014)

It would factor (there are certainly colours I do love and think look amazing) however everything elese such as conformation, temperment, complementing the mare and soundness would have to be met first


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## Meowy Catkin (22 November 2014)

bakewell said:



			I've also seen some research to suggest that the silver (as in silver dapple) causes eye problems due to the effect on formation of protein.

*Interesting.*

I love chestnut, especially the flaming deep ones. However I do think the "chestnut mare" thing still persists in some people's heads. I wonder if the greater expression of white does (perhaps subconsciously) affect things like dressage scoring... ie insufficiently sombre or not as easy to accurately register movement.
		
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If in this mythical future, I got a chestnut filly from my grey, that was wonderful in every other way too, I would be seriously thrilled. I love a good chestnut mare.  If the foal was a grey, then it would still should have all the other desirable qualities (conformation, temperament, athleticism, trainability etc...) that make a good horse.

I wouldn't say that the arab world is particularly anti chestnut as I've never had an arab person mention it to me. Whereas some non arab people I have come across do bang on about 'chestnut mares' a lot, but then the fact that CM is half arab, chestnut and a mare seemed to be the trifecta that sent them into meltdown! 

I do think that white markings look aesthetically nice, but having had an awful summer once treating my gelding for photosensitivity, it has put me off white markings. So my preference now would be for minimal or no white.


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## bakewell (22 November 2014)

Moya_999 said:



			Simple answer yes I do along with breed temperament and looks and confermation and stride.
		
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mynutmeg said:



			It would factor (there are certainly colours I do love and think look amazing) however everything elese such as conformation, temperment, complementing the mare and soundness would have to be met first
		
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If those factors were met, would any colour/ pattern be sufficient to put you off? Would you say it's valuable to make your youngstock noticeable or to meet a prevailing taste?



Spring Feather said:



			Yes I do take colour into account when I breed my mares.
		
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Could I ask what you think is most attractive/ desirable, and which you might find offputting?
Also, does certainty matter (say homozygous coloured) or do you just prefer to tip the odds a little?

Thankyou very much for responses. My only breeding background is in breeds with very limited colour genetics so this is a new consideration for me in planning (the slightly distant) future.


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## Spring Feather (22 November 2014)

bakewell said:



			Could I ask what you think is most attractive/ desirable, and which you might find offputting?
Also, does certainty matter (say homozygous coloured) or do you just prefer to tip the odds a little?
		
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I breed Hanoverians, Holsteiners and Oldenburgs and I wouldn't breed to a cremello or a tobiano or a grey (unless the mare is grey).  I breed to sell so I have to take into account what sells.  

I have two homozygous black sabinos so I'm able to choose from pretty much any colour of stallions for them.  

I have a homozygous grey mare and I have been searching for a long time for a grey stallion (and there are some that I love but for whatever reason I haven't used them on her yet).  I can breed her to whatever colour too though as her foals are always grey so base colour is neither here nor there.

The rest of my mares are bay (some flashy sabinos, some plain).  I have always chosen bay stallions for them, and probably always will.


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## sallyf (22 November 2014)

I suppose I breed for colour but only as far as grey , bay ,brown , chestnut and black.
Personally I don't do dilute , coloured etc , but then again as I am trying to breed high class event/showjumpers there isn't  much in the dilute/coloured market with enough TB blood/performance or a mix of the 2 for me to warrant looking in that direction.


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## bakewell (22 November 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			I breed Hanoverians, Holsteiners and Oldenburgs and I wouldn't breed to a cremello or a tobiano or a grey (unless the mare is grey).  I breed to sell so I have to take into account what sells.  

I have two homozygous black sabinos so I'm able to choose from pretty much any colour of stallions for them.  

I have a homozygous grey mare and I have been searching for a long time for a grey stallion (and there are some that I love but for whatever reason I haven't used them on her yet).  I can breed her to whatever colour too though as her foals are always grey so base colour is neither here nor there.

The rest of my mares are bay (some flashy sabinos, some plain).  I have always chosen bay stallions for them, and probably always will.
		
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Thank-you, that is very interesting. Particularly regarding grey. If you could elaborate on that I'd be interested, do you think it's less bankable or a harder sell... 



sallyf said:



			I suppose I breed for colour but only as far as grey , bay ,brown , chestnut and black.
Personally I don't do dilute , coloured etc , but then again as I am trying to breed high class event/showjumpers there isn't  much in the dilute/coloured market with enough TB blood/performance or a mix of the 2 for me to warrant looking in that direction.
		
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Thank-you very much, this is very useful.


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## Spring Feather (22 November 2014)

bakewell said:



			Thank-you, that is very interesting. Particularly regarding grey. If you could elaborate on that I'd be interested, do you think it's less bankable or a harder sell...
		
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It's an easier sell if the stallion is grey because those who like that particular stallion are obviously attracted to grey horses.  It's a harder sell if the foal is grey but the stallion is some other colour, except if people follow the mare and like her offspring and then the same happens as in my former comment, whereby because the mare is grey and they like her, then they're fine with buying a grey foal.

The easiest sells for me are foals who are either bay or black with big, well marked blazes and tall white stockings (especially 4!).  The only foal I am retaining this year is homozygous black, with an enormous blaze and 4 white stockings and she's the one I could have sold 50 times over as black with white markings seems to be so rare these days in WB breeding.


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## Equi (22 November 2014)

Yes. I did not under any circumstances want a chestnut or one with a strong red gene.


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## lizness (22 November 2014)

Although not a breeder if I ever bred my mare I would try and avoid a grey foal, even though they are beautiful as they are more predisposed to melanomas I believe after working at a vets I was surprised how many greys there are with them and we were not usually seeing them for the melanomas. I would be looking to produce a horse with longevity with melanomas may restrict or in my eyes anyway!


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## bakewell (22 November 2014)

equi said:



			Yes. I did not under any circumstances want a chestnut or one with a strong red gene.
		
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Strong red gene? I'm not sure I understand.


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## Equi (22 November 2014)

lizness said:



			Although not a breeder if I ever bred my mare I would try and avoid a grey foal, even though they are beautiful as they are more predisposed to melanomas I believe after working at a vets I was surprised how many greys there are with them and we were not usually seeing them for the melanomas. I would be looking to produce a horse with longevity with melanomas may restrict or in my eyes anyway!
		
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Depends on the type of melanoma. My pony was riddled with them on his sheath and anus but was over 30.


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## bakewell (22 November 2014)

lizness said:



			Although not a breeder if I ever bred my mare I would try and avoid a grey foal, even though they are beautiful as they are more predisposed to melanomas I believe after working at a vets I was surprised how many greys there are with them and we were not usually seeing them for the melanomas. I would be looking to produce a horse with longevity with melanomas may restrict or in my eyes anyway!
		
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This is a very valid point that I had overlooked a little. Outside of the grey factor do you think/ know if there's a genetic predisposition... ie a stallion who was melanoma free (as far as known) at an older age being preferable.
I guess grey, whilst delightful to look at can be a ticking time bomb in that regard.


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## bakewell (22 November 2014)

equi said:



			Depends on the type of melanoma. My pony was riddled with them on his sheath and anus but was over 30.
		
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Melanoma is the type? And typically it's the ones on the inside that can be most problematic.


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## Equi (22 November 2014)

bakewell said:



			Melanoma is the type? And typically it's the ones on the inside that can be most problematic.
		
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Yes but i mean some are really aggressive and some are not.


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## Spring Feather (22 November 2014)

bakewell said:



			This is a very valid point that I had overlooked a little. Outside of the grey factor do you think/ know if there's a genetic predisposition...
		
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Almost all greys will develop melanomas at some point in their life; either external or internal.  I love greys, I own a few and when buying a riding horse I'm more than happy to buy a grey but I wouldn't buy another grey broodmare unless she was as exceptional as the one I have now; not because of melanomas but because their foals are not so easy to sell in the WB market.


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## bakewell (22 November 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			Almost all greys will develop melanomas at some point in their life; either external or internal.  I love greys, I own a few and when buying a riding horse I'm more than happy to buy a grey but I wouldn't buy another grey broodmare unless she was as exceptional as the one I have now; not because of melanomas but because their foals are not so easy to sell in the WB market.
		
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Also the cremellos that hide their greying... you really need to test for the gene as it's not visible at all. Seen two of those.

I had noted fewer greys in the WB market (apart from SJ where most things are second to the pop). My interest is Iberian horses so unfortunately some of the most ancient/ well regarded bloodlines are often homozygous grey, I imagine similar in some arab lines.

Your sabino comments have really given me food for thought though. Thanks!


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## Spring Feather (22 November 2014)

bakewell said:



			I had noted fewer greys in the WB market (apart from SJ where most things are second to the pop).
		
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Yes there's quite a lot of grey Holsteiners and a lesser amount of grey Oldenburgs in the SJ world, but you rarely see any grey Hanoverians nowadays.




			Your sabino comments have really given me food for thought though. Thanks!
		
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What colour is your mare, if you don't mind me asking?


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## bakewell (22 November 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			What colour is your mare, if you don't mind me asking?
		
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She's (ostensibly) bright bay. *but* before I got her she bred some foals and one was a double dilute, by a buckskin stallion. 
So I need to have her tested. There's a possibility she's either a very bay looking buckskin or carries pearl (or who knows because all things lurk in spanish horses coat genetics!). The other thing is dun/ buckskin/ things that could possibly be that were not eligible for registration until recently so were often described as "bay".
Right now she's just disgustingly furry and mucky but in summer she's a very very bright bay with a gold/ orange cast. And very black points.


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## Spring Feather (22 November 2014)

Interesting.  Let us know once you get the DNA results.  And a piccy of her would be nice


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## bakewell (22 November 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			Interesting.  Let us know once you get the DNA results.  And a piccy of her would be nice 

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I'm getting a horsey photoshoot for christmas so hopefully when spring coats come in I'll have something better than my appalling efforts! (and we're moving so a better backdrop too! this farm is very... functional but 70's atcost)


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## Spring Feather (22 November 2014)

Excellent.  Look forward to seeing her.


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## Meowy Catkin (22 November 2014)

bakewell said:



			Strong red gene? I'm not sure I understand.
		
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I also want to know what Equi means by this. 

*confused*


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## Char0901 (23 November 2014)

It was the last thing I thought of really. I was looking for a stallion for my eventing mare, wanted something for SJ and maybe eventing. 
The stallion I chose suited my mare to a 'T', for me it was just a bonus he was grey. The stallion I chose is by Calido 1, so quite a bit of grey down that line. I now have a lovely 18 month old grey, with a blaze and 2 white socks, however at this rate, they will be gone by this time next year! He went grey very early, he was born a light Bay, and by 4 months old was well into greying out. 
I must add, I only bred him for myself and I will never sell him. However, I think he his nicely enough bred to appeal to a general market. I've had one offer which I politely declined as he's going nowhere. It is nice to know that others like what you have bred.


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## TheMule (23 November 2014)

I struck gold with my first foal- dam is plain bay, no white, knew bay was coming from her sire but her dam is grey and I had no idea what her base colour was,. Stallion is bay with plenty of white, definite red factor carrier through his sire.
I got a chestnut filly, sabino with plenty of white. My favourite!!


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## angrovestud (23 November 2014)

We breed for coloured racing we use to stand a 75 % TB coloured now (RIP) he sired 5 or more eventers, our coloured stallions full brother being one of them out eventing, he also sired our coloured racehorse so there are some high end quality coloured stallions


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## bakewell (23 November 2014)

angrovestud said:



			We breed for coloured racing we use to stand a 75 % TB coloured now (RIP) he sired 5 or more eventers, our coloured stallions full brother being one of them out eventing, he also sired our coloured racehorse so there are some high end quality coloured stallions
		
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Undoubtedly! And I think they have a special appeal for man people too.

TBH If I put her to a PRE stallion with the aim of producing a primarily dressage horse I'm going to take on board springfeather's solid with sabino pointers, although white marking is rarer in Iberian breeds. I also want to avoid a double dilute if possible with *this* breeding although I don't mind them generally. If she's carrying cream (or something else) that might limit me on stallion choices. Need to pull my finger and her tail to find out!

If I put her to a sporthorse or similar stallion to produce something a bit more scopey over a fence it's a different ball game.


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## Scarlett (24 November 2014)

I bred my first, and only, foal last year. My mare was a bay roan when I got her and is now fleabitten with dark points. I really, really didn't want a chestnut or a grey however I found the perfect stallion in the perfect situation and he was chestnut. Foal is everything we hoped for except she was born bright chestnut and at 18 months is now already going grey. Not the bay colt I had hoped for but perfect in her own way!


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## Bedlam (27 November 2014)

I breed for eventing and couldn't give two hoots what colour they are! Having said that I am very interested in colour genetics and am sorely tempted to get my bay mares colour tested to see what their colour genotype is - purely for interest. I honestly would say that when choosing stallions the colour is possibly just above the name of the great grand sire in determining which to choose.....


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