# Backing the young horse - NOT the MR way!!



## JanetGeorge (16 July 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI6MkOXNrl4

I confess I can't back a horse in 10 hours - or should I say I WON'T!!  Which would YOU prefer?

The video shows a young (4) RID mare who'd done 4 weeks groundwork before rider went on and this is 5th day with rider on - and first day with rider OFF the lunge!

4 weeks AFTER this video, a potential buyer tried her - a nervous middle-aged lady who had hardly been on a horse since losing hers 6 months ago.  The mare stood like a rock at the mounting block - and carried her around in walk, trot and canter without putting a foot wrong!  And - funny enough - she didn't need a buckstop at ANY stage of her training!


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## BlackRider (16 July 2012)

Well said! so many people think MR is more than a quick fix, and don't realise it isn't the long term solution for a good riding horse.


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## ForeverBroke_ (16 July 2012)

What a poppet!! If she hasn't been snapped up already  by the lady then she's going to make someone a cracking horse - lucky them!


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## JanetGeorge (16 July 2012)

Fleabite said:



			What a poppet!! If she hasn't been snapped up already  by the lady then she's going to make someone a cracking horse - lucky them!
		
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Lady is VERY torn - she fell in love with a chestnut 3 year old filly who we hadn't even started backing.  So we started on her 3 weeks ago - she saw chestnut work and still loves her but of course she wasn't ready to put someone (other than staff) on.  And riding Secret swayed her towards HER.  But she's coming back next week-end to try chestnut.


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## tallyho! (16 July 2012)

I still don't get the whole MR obsession anyway. Plenty of safe horses are started in this country (and many others) in kind and sympathetic fashion using that amazing method... wait for it... common sense. Well done for posting.


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## JanetGeorge (16 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			I still don't get the whole MR obsession anyway. Plenty of safe horses are started in this country (and many others) in kind and sympathetic fashion using that amazing method... wait for it... common sense. Well done for posting.
		
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Exactly!  It's all marketing.  I'm thinking of launching my own 'school' of horsemanship - perhaps 'No ***** Horsemanship" - has a ring to it??


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## AFlapjack (16 July 2012)

What a gorgeous mare 

May I ask what routine you do throughout the whole backing process (like you say 4 wks groundwork, what does this include?) and why you use two sets of reins (one on noseband, one on bit?)

Sorry if I'm being too nosy but its interesting


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## Moggy in Manolos (16 July 2012)

She is a very nice mare, I hope Nell goes as quietly as her come the time...


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## ester (16 July 2012)

JG your post just reminded me who was it on here who had the spotty that you did a re-break or similar on? just pondering how he was going now!


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## ForeverBroke_ (16 July 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			Lady is VERY torn - she fell in love with a chestnut 3 year old filly who we hadn't even started backing.  So we started on her 3 weeks ago - she saw chestnut work and still loves her but of course she wasn't ready to put someone (other than staff) on.  And riding Secret swayed her towards HER.  But she's coming back next week-end to try chestnut.
		
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Well good luck to her, and both horses in question! Either way she'll be in for a treat I'm sure and many years of happiness - well done!


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## Holly Hocks (16 July 2012)

Lovely horse! Looks to have such a kind temperament. I wouldn't use MR methods to start a young horse, because I always thought his methods were more directed towards horses which were problematic (aka ballsed up first by another human!), so I do think they have their place in that respect, but as for starting a youngster, then there is no reason to use anything other than common sense I wouldn't have thought. 

JG - what do you do with your horses as three year olds?  I've got a little 13.3hh NFx filly -she has been taught to lunge (lightly), bitted, long-reins round the school, but most of my work with her involves taking her out walking on the roads in hand as I really really want a pony who has seen as much as possible.....is there anything else you can recommend? She won't be broken in until next year, although has had a saddle on and didn't react at all!Thanks


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## RuthM (16 July 2012)

I'm sure that method sounds familiar....

Marketing though, you'd need something attention grabbing - maybe a special bit of kit? And the time scales are a bit boring, I mean a couple of months - that's as old as the hills, maybe try 20 minutes after chasing for a few hours (ooops - that was the MR mustang one wasn't it? best not then), maybe slow breaking? add a year on twiddling, whoops - not very easy to demo. Oh hell, I don't know, seems to me to make a bundle it's got to be portable, fast, attract the media and have merchandise. 

I think, if I'm honest, you might have to forgo the mega bucks and just stick to breaking horses....


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## splashgirl45 (16 July 2012)

how nice to see someone taking time to break a horse, i cant understand why so many people think its clever to be the quickest, im sure its for the publicity half the time.....thanks for sharing

alice flapjack, in case jg doesnt answer re 2 reins, i did exactly the same when i backed my last horse and my reason was so i wouldnt give her a jab in the mouth if the unexpected happened.  also as she was used to pressure from a headcollar ii used the rein to the noseband first and gradually got her used to use of the bit....hope that helps, im no expert but it worked very well for me...


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## Meowy Catkin (16 July 2012)

Beautiful mare.


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## LD&S (16 July 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI6MkOXNrl4

I confess I can't back a horse in 10 hours - or should I say I WON'T!!  Which would YOU prefer?

The video shows a young (4) RID mare who'd done 4 weeks groundwork before rider went on and this is 5th day with rider on - and first day with rider OFF the lunge!

4 weeks AFTER this video, a potential buyer tried her - a nervous middle-aged lady who had hardly been on a horse since losing hers 6 months ago.  The mare stood like a rock at the mounting block - and carried her around in walk, trot and canter without putting a foot wrong!  And - funny enough - she didn't need a buckstop at ANY stage of her training!
		
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I'm not sure if there is a part of this thread missing, is there a post I can't see extolling the virtues of the buckstop or is this yet another dig at MR?

Surely no matter what their name or reputation whether it be MR, Parelli or the local yard down the road, if someone backs a horse safely without causing pain and fear and encourages others to do the same that at least should be recognised.


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## JanetGeorge (16 July 2012)

AliceFlapjack said:



			What a gorgeous mare 

May I ask what routine you do throughout the whole backing process (like you say 4 wks groundwork, what does this include?) and why you use two sets of reins (one on noseband, one on bit?)

Sorry if I'm being too nosy but its interesting 

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She IS nice - won a strong Yearling class at the Breed Show in 2009 her first (and last) time out.  She was late born and came up rather smaller than her siblings - I have a 3 year old full siser who is HUGE (and who won the 2&3 yo class at 3 Counties HER first time out!)

Groundwork is basically lunging - initially just cavesson, then cavesson and roller, then cavesson, bit & roller, then saddle and ride reins added.  The aim is to develop balance and get them word perfect to voice commands.  Can take 2-5 weeks depending on the individual - she was a touch sharp for an ID.

The two reins is to ensure the mouth is protected.  When steering and stopping is just coming you CAN have an emergency and HAVE to pull up.  We always start with the rein on the cavesson shorter while gradually introducing the feel of the bit - so the mouth remains sensitive.  The pressure on the noseband also helps keep the head in a good position (without using the bit to crank them in.)  Youngsters going around with their noses in the air just don't learn to accept the bit.  For similar reasons we always have a good helper on the ground with a lunge whip so the rider can use legs lightly - and get back-up from the lunge whip if horse doesn't go forward - rather than having to kick more.  Who wants a horse you have to kick and pull?? FAR too much like hard work!


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## JanetGeorge (16 July 2012)

ester said:



			JG your post just reminded me who was it on here who had the spotty that you did a re-break or similar on? just pondering how he was going now!
		
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Ah - the unbreakable horse!  That was lindsayH's Clyde - haven't heard lately.

Are you there, lindsayH??


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## JanetGeorge (16 July 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			JG - what do you do with your horses as three year olds?  I've got a little 13.3hh NFx filly -she has been taught to lunge (lightly), bitted, long-reins round the school, but most of my work with her involves taking her out walking on the roads in hand as I really really want a pony who has seen as much as possible.....is there anything else you can recommend? She won't be broken in until next year, although has had a saddle on and didn't react at all!Thanks
		
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Most of my 3 year olds are still in the field.  We used to back them at 3 - but then I got behind as we had so many visitors - and then I found that backing at 4 was FAR easier.  Horses were mentally and physically more mature - and readier to sell at the end of the process.

What you're doing sounds fine!


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## JanetGeorge (16 July 2012)

LD&S said:



			I'm not sure if there is a part of this thread missing, is there a post I can't see extolling the virtues of the buckstop or is this yet another dig at MR?

Surely no matter what their name or reputation whether it be MR, Parelli or the local yard down the road, if someone backs a horse safely without causing pain and fear and encourages others to do the same that at least should be recognised.
		
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Read this thread!  http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=550028

Anyone who uses a buckstop just so they can back young horses in 10 hours SHOULD be recognised - as a self-promoting idiot who doesn't actually care about a horse's long-term future!!


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## Meowy Catkin (16 July 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			Most of my 3 year olds are still in the field.  We used to back them at 3 - but then I got behind as we had so many visitors - and then I found that backing at 4 was FAR easier.  Horses were mentally and physically more mature - and readier to sell at the end of the process.
		
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That's very interesting. I had decided to back my grey at four (and that's what happened) but I had so much pressure from others to start her at three. I'm really glad that I waited as she took to it really well.


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## rhino (16 July 2012)

Love the work you do, I just wish you'd put more videos up on your youtube channel! I liked the spotty you had recently - saw him advertised for sale and thought I recognised the yard.

Let your work stand on its own merits though, as it will, I'm not sure the jibes at MR or any other trainer are necessary, and I found it a little uncomfortable coming from someone I considered a true professional


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## LD&S (16 July 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			Read this thread!  http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=550028

Anyone who uses a buckstop just so they can back young horses in 10 hours SHOULD be recognised - as a self-promoting idiot who doesn't actually care about a horse's long-term future!!
		
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As I can't access the report referred to I can't comment on it's use in the trials, it is only hearsay but I was led to believe it was part of the kit taken but I don't know if it was used or not.


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## Pearlsasinger (16 July 2012)

LD&S said:



			I'm not sure if there is a part of this thread missing, is there a post I can't see extolling the virtues of the buckstop or is this yet another dig at MR?

Surely no matter what their name or reputation whether it be MR, Parelli or the local yard down the road, if someone backs a horse safely without causing pain and fear and encourages others to do the same that at least should be recognised.
		
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As many people on HHO do indeed recognise the methods JG has used and is still using to back her horses safely without causing pain and fear, unlike the aforementioned Americans who have demonstrated their methods which DO cause pain and fear (including the use of the buck stop and the gumline).
I can never understand why any-one in the UK would listen to these charlatans when they try to tell us that their methods are 'kinder/better' than traditional ones.  Traditional American methods are indeed inhumane and 'break' describes them perfectly.  Traditional British methods, used by experienced horsemen and women for a very long time, are much less questionable imo.


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## AFlapjack (16 July 2012)

splashgirl45 said:



			how nice to see someone taking time to break a horse, i cant understand why so many people think its clever to be the quickest, im sure its for the publicity half the time.....thanks for sharing

alice flapjack, in case jg doesnt answer re 2 reins, i did exactly the same when i backed my last horse and my reason was so i wouldnt give her a jab in the mouth if the unexpected happened.  also as she was used to pressure from a headcollar ii used the rein to the noseband first and gradually got her used to use of the bit....hope that helps, im no expert but it worked very well for me...
		
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JanetGeorge said:



			She IS nice - won a strong Yearling class at the Breed Show in 2009 her first (and last) time out.  She was late born and came up rather smaller than her siblings - I have a 3 year old full siser who is HUGE (and who won the 2&3 yo class at 3 Counties HER first time out!)

Groundwork is basically lunging - initially just cavesson, then cavesson and roller, then cavesson, bit & roller, then saddle and ride reins added.  The aim is to develop balance and get them word perfect to voice commands.  Can take 2-5 weeks depending on the individual - she was a touch sharp for an ID.

The two reins is to ensure the mouth is protected.  When steering and stopping is just coming you CAN have an emergency and HAVE to pull up.  We always start with the rein on the cavesson shorter while gradually introducing the feel of the bit - so the mouth remains sensitive.  The pressure on the noseband also helps keep the head in a good position (without using the bit to crank them in.)  Youngsters going around with their noses in the air just don't learn to accept the bit.  For similar reasons we always have a good helper on the ground with a lunge whip so the rider can use legs lightly - and get back-up from the lunge whip if horse doesn't go forward - rather than having to kick more.  Who wants a horse you have to kick and pull?? FAR too much like hard work!

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Thank you both! Makes perfect sense when you think about it!   I am assisting with breaking in horses and ponies over the summer, all for experience/knowledge!


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## JanetGeorge (16 July 2012)

rhino said:



			Let your work stand on its own merits though, as it will, I'm not sure the jibes at MR or any other trainer are necessary, and I found it a little uncomfortable coming from someone I considered a true professional 

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MR and Prat Parelli are the only ones I bother insulting  - and as both of them have promoted themselves with claims that their way was the only kind way, they can hardly complain!

When MR first stuck his head into the UK I did a bit of research - and it was clear that he jumped from relative obscurity to 'fame' on the back of The Horse Whisperer and claims that HE was the inspiration for the book (which he wasn't!)  I learned a bit more when I met Nick Evans during a Newsnight interview - VERY illuminating. But far too many people swallowed him - and Parelli - whole!

To my mind, any trainer who puts young and/or problem horses into a side-show atmosphere and tries to 'fix' them there - against the clock - isn't a trainer's behind!  And that goes for a LOT of the people now promoting/adapting their methods in the UK- and horses are suffering!


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## tess1 (16 July 2012)

LD&S said:



			As I can't access the report referred to I can't comment on it's use in the trials, it is only hearsay but I was led to believe it was part of the kit taken but I don't know if it was used or not.
		
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You will be able to access it in September (at a cost) or sooner if you are studying at post-grad level or part of a faculty that has access to published research.  In the meantime I can absolutely promise you that everything I have said is true with regards to the frequency of buckstopper use and the history of the horses, to the best of my knowledge and understanding of what I have read.  There is a graph displayed in the study which indicates the frequency of every piece of equipment used by both Monty and the conventional trainer.


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## Maesfen (16 July 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			To my mind, any trainer who puts young and/or problem horses into a side-show atmosphere and tries to 'fix' them there - against the clock - isn't a trainer's behind!  And that goes for a LOT of the people now promoting/adapting their methods in the UK- and horses are suffering!
		
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Well said Janet, very true.


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## Hollywood (16 July 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			MR and Prat Parelli are the only ones I bother insulting  - and as both of them have promoted themselves with claims that their way was the only kind way, they can hardly complain!

When MR first stuck his head into the UK I did a bit of research - and it was clear that he jumped from relative obscurity to 'fame' on the back of The Horse Whisperer and claims that HE was the inspiration for the book (which he wasn't!)  I learned a bit more when I met Nick Evans during a Newsnight interview - VERY illuminating. But far too many people swallowed him - and Parelli - whole!

To my mind, any trainer who puts young and/or problem horses into a side-show atmosphere and tries to 'fix' them there - against the clock - isn't a trainer's behind!  And that goes for a LOT of the people now promoting/adapting their methods in the UK- and horses are suffering!
		
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Well said - I can't understand how some people are so taken in with all the hype around these people and spend their hard earned cash buying their products.  

I love watching your clips on breaking your horses - such a good tried and proven method - this is the sort of method that should be promoted more and then there would not be so many ruined horses.


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## maisie06 (16 July 2012)

Well done! I think lots of people want a quick fix backing these days. No wonder there are so many problem horses around, well actually it's not the horse that is the problem but the owner!
I have often been slated for the fact I have taken so long to do my youngster, (I do a bit then leave him due to other commitments etc) and he is, I am pleased to say a sensible, well rounded youngster who is a reliable hack, yet I still get nagged because he isn't in an outline or competing yet!!


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## Goldenstar (16 July 2012)

Just a lovely mare so sweet and lucky to get a great start in life.


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## Echo Bravo (16 July 2012)

I have a 7 year old mare that is still deciding wether she want's to be broken in yet,she will let me know at sometime.


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## dafthoss (16 July 2012)

Love the way you break horses JG and if ever I had one needing breaking I'd not hesitate to send it your way. Having seen some one of yours out and about (baby rhythm) he is a lovely young lad. If only you bred small horses I'd be on my way when I next was horse shopping .


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## JanetGeorge (16 July 2012)

dafthoss said:



			Love the way you break horses JG and if ever I had one needing breaking I'd not hesitate to send it your way. Having seen some one of yours out and about (baby rhythm) he is a lovely young lad. If only you bred small horses I'd be on my way when I next was horse shopping .
		
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Rhythm is a sweetie - but quite a BIG sweetie (his Mum is 17.1 so not surprising that he's a big boy.)

How small do you like - the mare in that video is barely 15.3 and I have a couple of 2 and 3 year olds who'll be under 16hh


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## Caol Ila (16 July 2012)

I like JanetGeorge's methods so no arguments there, but talking about "traditional British methods" versus "traditional American methods?"  As though one is considerably superior to the other?  Really?  

I've seen just as many badly trained horses in Britain as I have seen in the US.  The methods I learned when I was trained how to start youngsters may have been more Western orientated, but they were kind, compassionate, patient, and put as good a foundation on a colt as you could want.  No gadgets at all.  

"Common sense" horsemanship is only common sense to people who have a thorough background in horses and a solid understanding of how their brains work and how to communicate with them.  And maybe a grasp of how operant conditioning works.  As they are prey animals and have a very different view of their world than us, mere "common sense" will not make a good horseman, as the novice horseman, not knowing any better, may well assume that the horse thinks like us more than it does.   It annoys me when people say, "My training is just common sense."  Common sense to who?  To some, "common sense" would dictate not getting on the back of a 1000lbs flight animal to begin with!

Parelli is just as controversial in the States as he is here.


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## dafthoss (16 July 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			Rhythm is a sweetie - but quite a BIG sweetie (his Mum is 17.1 so not surprising that he's a big boy.)

How small do you like - the mare in that video is barely 15.3 and I have a couple of 2 and 3 year olds who'll be under 16hh
		
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I'd love to know how he manages to be so cute despite being so huge 

I like mine fairly small  current ones only 14.2 but when I leave uni I'll be after some thing a little larger (as well as him as he isnt going any where) but I'm only 5'2 so feel silly on any thing big. Will just be after some thing that can make horse strides out competing basically so about 15something if it rides like a big pony then that would be perfect. But would like to not have to undo some one elses mess ups next time so will be looking at some thing correctly produced from the out set to go out and have fun on.


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## rubysmum (17 July 2012)

your methods sound lovely AND effective - i am only a numpty, but have just acquired a 5 yr old - who was backed & ridden away & has done very little since - i am happily spending a couple of weeks lunging, re-introducing tack and doing manners work but have been asked why i am not riding her yet - personally i like to set up horses to succeed, so 14/21 days of making sure that it will go well when she is ridden just seems sensible - perhaps in our super-fast culture people cannot cope with anything that does not give instant gratification


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## Kaylum (17 July 2012)

That's how we would back so much likey, the only thing I would say is we would be off the yard if we didn't have a riding hat and a good pair of boots on when on the ground. 

Regarding the mr debate there is no reason to cause an animal pain, I don't care who you are or what your methods are.  I saw a very high up BHS instructor beat a girls horse up after she had ridden it, the horse had been hoof perfect. She didn't know I was watching her I should have filmed it.  She saw me afterwards and gave me some very nasty looks which I gave back, I told the owner but she didn't believe me.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (17 July 2012)

Preaching to the choir JG. I will say that the last 3 we've had were more like 8 weeks riding nicely but when we got them they actually didn't even know how to lead. The first week alone was learning to lead, have a schedule, and basics like grooming. 

We did have one we bred ourselves in which we used to ride in from the field before she was broke in just a headcollar and rope. A Ginger TB mare of all things. But we did all the regular stuff when it was time to start her.

It's all in what you get through your door I suppose.

Terri


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## LauraWheeler (17 July 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			Exactly!  It's all marketing.  I'm thinking of launching my own 'school' of horsemanship - perhaps 'No ***** Horsemanship" - has a ring to it??
		
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You mean you don't chase your horses round till they are to exausted to argue with you     

Don't get me started on MR  

I was thinking of setting up my own 'school' to. The only trouble is I do it for the good of the horse. NOT as a money making sceam 

That mare looks a real sweetie. Well done you for giving her the best start in life. I hope you find her a wonderful home and she goes on to give someone many years of happyness. Keep up the good work.


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## tallyho! (17 July 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			I like JanetGeorge's methods so no arguments there, but talking about "traditional British methods" versus "traditional American methods?"  As though one is considerably superior to the other?  Really?  

I've seen just as many badly trained horses in Britain as I have seen in the US.  The methods I learned when I was trained how to start youngsters may have been more Western orientated, but they were kind, compassionate, patient, and put as good a foundation on a colt as you could want.  No gadgets at all.  

"Common sense" horsemanship is only common sense to people who have a thorough background in horses and a solid understanding of how their brains work and how to communicate with them.  And maybe a grasp of how operant conditioning works.  As they are prey animals and have a very different view of their world than us, mere "common sense" will not make a good horseman, as the novice horseman, not knowing any better, may well assume that the horse thinks like us more than it does.   It annoys me when people say, "My training is just common sense."  Common sense to who?  To some, "common sense" would dictate not getting on the back of a 1000lbs flight animal to begin with!

Parelli is just as controversial in the States as he is here.
		
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I see children make "friends" with horses all the time. They are gentle, compassionate and show LOVE & RESPECT. The horses and ponies show it back.

If you don't like the word "common sense", then I can't argue with you. I'm sorry it annoys you.

I can still hold on to my opinion that I communicate with my animals with a sense of that love and compassion. Ever since I was a child. I did not need MR or PP to show me how to communicate with my animals. That to me is common sense. It is innate and all are capable of it.

Come to think of it, thousands of caring compassionate people have come before the subject matter and produced beautiful partnerships. None needed carrot sticks or painful halters. Just time and the will to listen.

Granted, there are bad trainers everywhere, it is shame they have have so many blind followers.


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## eahotson (17 July 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			I like JanetGeorge's methods so no arguments there, but talking about "traditional British methods" versus "traditional American methods?"  As though one is considerably superior to the other?  Really?  

I've seen just as many badly trained horses in Britain as I have seen in the US.  The methods I learned when I was trained how to start youngsters may have been more Western orientated, but they were kind, compassionate, patient, and put as good a foundation on a colt as you could want.  No gadgets at all.  

"Common sense" horsemanship is only common sense to people who have a thorough background in horses and a solid understanding of how their brains work and how to communicate with them.  And maybe a grasp of how operant conditioning works.  As they are prey animals and have a very different view of their world than us, mere "common sense" will not make a good horseman, as the novice horseman, not knowing any better, may well assume that the horse thinks like us more than it does.   It annoys me when people say, "My training is just common sense."  Common sense to who?  To some, "common sense" would dictate not getting on the back of a 1000lbs flight animal to begin with!

Parelli is just as controversial in the States as he is here.
		
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Like.


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## eahotson (17 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			I see children make "friends" with horses all the time. They are gentle, compassionate and show LOVE & RESPECT. The horses and ponies show it back.

If you don't like the word "common sense", then I can't argue with you. I'm sorry it annoys you.

I can still hold on to my opinion that I communicate with my animals with a sense of that love and compassion. Ever since I was a child. I did not need MR or PP to show me how to communicate with my animals. That to me is common sense. It is innate and all are capable of it.

Come to think of it, thousands of caring compassionate people have come before the subject matter and produced beautiful partnerships. None needed carrot sticks or painful halters. Just time and the will to listen.

Granted, there are bad trainers everywhere, it is shame they have have so many blind followers.
		
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Tallyho I have usually had good and very good relationships with my horses on the ground with no fancy equipment, just by good will patience and getting to know them etc.HOWEVER I have usually bought/handled pleasant natured horses with a non abusive background.There are some horses that are much more challenging and thats where knowledge and experience come to the fore.


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## tallyho! (17 July 2012)

eahotson said:



			Tallyho I have usually had good and very good relationships with my horses on the ground with no fancy equipment, just by good will patience and getting to know them etc.HOWEVER I have usually bought/handled pleasant natured horses with a non abusive background.There are some horses that are much more challenging and thats where knowledge and experience come to the fore.
		
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I do not doubt it. All I am saying is that NH is not the only way. 

What we have to remember is that everybody's experiences are different. I believe the majority of the market going to NH demos are young and inexperienced looking for that 'natural' way. When plenty of experience exists here. 

I also have had to learn as I go. I have been to see MR  as I was interested. What I saw only mirrored my "English" mentors be it a little more flashy. So, I have seen with my own eyes and made my own judgement. I have not come here to criticise individuals as some have come to criticise my views.


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## JanetGeorge (17 July 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			I like JanetGeorge's methods so no arguments there, but talking about "traditional British methods" versus "traditional American methods?"  As though one is considerably superior to the other?  Really?  

I've seen just as many badly trained horses in Britain as I have seen in the US.
		
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I'd agree there are bad trainers in all 'schools' of horsemanship.  But 'traditional' in America was pretty much the same as 'traditional' in Australia.  Horses ran pretty much 'wild' on LARGE acreages with very little handling.  And then the cowboys 'broke' them in - which in most cases involved roping them, getting the tack on (pretty forcefully) and riding them until they stopped bucking!!

Within those 'traditional' approaches there were people who did it better - taking time and patience.  There was a chap in Oz, backing young TBs dewstined for the track, who had his own version of Join-up (rather better than MR's IMHO) - and the horses he backed were always far better behaved and easier to ride/handle than most others!  MR claims his father used 'abusive' methods - but this has been strongly disputed by many who knew him well!

in the UK, much less land so horses kept closer - so quieter to start with.  Early handling of foals and youngstock makes a HUGE difference.  And the uses of horses - even 100 years ago - were rather different (not too many 10,000 acre stations to muster in the UK!!  So generally I think it's fair to say that 'traditional' UK methods tended to be quieter and kinder than MOST in the countries where there were extensive cattle ranges to cope with.


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## JanetGeorge (17 July 2012)

rubysmum said:



			your methods sound lovely AND effective - i am only a numpty, but have just acquired a 5 yr old - who was backed & ridden away & has done very little since - i am happily spending a couple of weeks lunging, re-introducing tack and doing manners work but have been asked why i am not riding her yet - personally i like to set up horses to succeed, so 14/21 days of making sure that it will go well when she is ridden just seems sensible - perhaps in our super-fast culture people cannot cope with anything that does not give instant gratification
		
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You're NOT a numpty!!  "Setting a horse up to succeed" is the very basis of my training philosophy!!  Take a step back when there are gale force winds - that's NOT the day to introduce something new!  Turn a mare out when she's ragingly in season - that's NOT the day to expect her to listen to you!  You want every step to go well - give it the best chance!


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## eahotson (17 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			I do not doubt it. All I am saying is that NH is not the only way. 

What we have to remember is that everybody's experiences are different. I believe the majority of the market going to NH demos are young and inexperienced looking for that 'natural' way. When plenty of experience exists here. 

I also have had to learn as I go. I have been to see MR  as I was interested. What I saw only mirrored my "English" mentors be it a little more flashy. So, I have seen with my own eyes and made my own judgement. I have not come here to criticise individuals as some have come to criticise my views.
		
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I ABSOLUTELY agree that NH is not the only way.Again it depends on your experiences.The TRADITIONAL way a few years ago was presented to me as no nonsense wack it if it doesn't behave.You get posters on here who write, I am no bunny hugger not me I have a stick and I know how to use it.So, like a lot ofpeople I was looking for kinder ways.I realize now that what was presented to me as traditional was just violent and ignorant horsemanship not traditional horsemanship.I think that there has always been educated and uneducated horsemanship.Elizabeth 1 had a horsemaster who wrote a book apparently, about horsemanship,which lasted until the early 19th century which talked much about kindness and gentleness in training horses.Of course that would only have been available to peopl ewho could afford it and could read.Not so many then.
I was interested in NH but not so much now.A lot seems a bit cultish and personality led.The best person with horses I have ever met is a guy called John Wilmott.Hugely experienced, very kind.The nearest thing I have ever found to a horse whisperer.Although he would deny that very firmly.No carrot sticks or any other fancy equipment.
A lot of novices end up in the natural horsemanship camp because its very hard to find really GOOD proffessional help and they struggle.I did for a long time but now have a fabulous instructor who has helped me so much and I am now in a happy place but I look around me and despair sometimes.


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## YasandCrystal (17 July 2012)

Lovely mare and lovely video. Just how backing should be imo.

I must say Monty attracted a lot of fans over that mustang backing he did and I hated every minute of it. I couldn't see any skill in hounding a horse across a desert until it was physiccally and mentally so knackered that it submitted to him.  He really went down in my estimation after that. He definately has a special way with horses, I wouldn't deny that, but it's the money/marketing machine that spoils it all in the end.


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## AdorableAlice (17 July 2012)

What a lovely mare Janet.

Please remember Alice and her big brother Little Ted have their holidays with you booked in for 2014.


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## Patterdale (17 July 2012)

Am I the only one who thinks that a nervous middle aged lady who hasnt ridden for a while, is possibly not the person for a just backed 3 or 4 year old.....however well backed it is?


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## Cortez (17 July 2012)

patterdale said:



			Am I the only one who thinks that a nervous middle aged lady who hasnt ridden for a while, is possibly not the person for a just backed 3 or 4 year old.....however well backed it is?
		
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You are not.....


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## Equilibrium Ireland (17 July 2012)

I'm pretty sure Janet would not sell a horse to someone if it didn't suit.

These unhandked ponies I mentioned. Two were for a client's daughter who had a bad accident and had lost all her confidence. When the father asked me how long it would take and could daughter ride, I said I don't know. I can't know that before I get started. Happy to say it only went from good to better with both ponies. Daughter has great confidence and has learned so much. It's too long to go into all the details. 

Terri


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## Ibblebibble (17 July 2012)

anyone with even half an ounce of common sense should be able to see that Janet's way of backing a horse is preferable to trying to achieve it in 10 hours or any other rigid timetable, but in MR's defence i didn't think that 10 hours was his usual routine, for a show/ experiment yes ( and i don't think that's a good idea at all) but I would be surprised if he suggested all horses should be backed this way.
As to 'traditional' it's a term which is used a lot but i often wonder exactly what people mean by it, does it depend on what generation you grew up in
I was taught the BHS way at college, (late 1980's) at that time it all seemed about appearance and looking right and doing things by the book rather than listening to the horses and going at their pace. Even the way we lunged was different, we weren't supposed to move too much, the horse was supposed to do all the work not us, now we are told to walk a small circle rather than plant ourselves in the middle. I found the BHS way stiff and unyielding, now maybe that was just the way our instructor taught it but it was that experience which made me look for alternatives later in life when i got my own horses. MR seemed to have some good ideas so that was a starting point, from there i've progressed to looking at other trainers and their ideas. 
IMO if Monty and others get people to think about how they treat their horses and to look at different ideas it can only be a good thing.


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## Mongoose11 (17 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			You are not.....
		
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I read from the initial post that the lady was nervous as had hardly ridden for six months after losing her own. Bound to be nervous after a break but the fact that she once had her own until recently suggests she may have the appropriate experience? Just 'getting back in the saddle' nerves perhaps?


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## Caol Ila (17 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			I see children make "friends" with horses all the time. They are gentle, compassionate and show LOVE & RESPECT. The horses and ponies show it back.

If you don't like the word "common sense", then I can't argue with you. I'm sorry it annoys you.

I can still hold on to my opinion that I communicate with my animals with a sense of that love and compassion. Ever since I was a child. I did not need MR or PP to show me how to communicate with my animals. That to me is common sense. It is innate and all are capable of it.

Come to think of it, thousands of caring compassionate people have come before the subject matter and produced beautiful partnerships. None needed carrot sticks or painful halters. Just time and the will to listen.

Granted, there are bad trainers everywhere, it is shame they have have so many blind followers.
		
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My point is that Monty Roberts and Pat Parelli are not indicative of all the kinds of training happening in the US.  First of all, it's a big country.  Really big.  Riding on the East Coast probably has more in common with riding here.  In the West, while there is indeed a tradition of taking rank horses off the range and riding the buck out of them, there is also one of training them as compassionately and painlessly as possible.  Then as now, it depends on the people.  Also, Janet's comment about how there was little in the way of early handling of youngsters does not really reflect the way most domestic horses in the US live now.  Unless you adopt a mustang from the BLM, chances are most young horses will have received handling from birth, same as in the UK.   Janet's video is lovely to watch (ingenious using the cavesson by the way -- next time I back a youngster, I am borrowing that idea), while the other day I saw people riding their green four year old, hauling its face off for a good 45 minutes, as it was nervous and jiggy.  I wish its owners would start looking at Roberts' methods, or anyone, which would at least indicate that they recognise something isn't working and are interested in exploring different methods and changing something.   I personally don't think Roberts and Parelli exemplify at all what works well with methods which get labeled as "natural horsemanship," but for someone coming from the "whack him, kick him" school of thought, it's a start.  

As Parelli and Roberts have done the best marketing, there as well as here, I suppose one can get the impression of how horse training in the States is, but it's only an impression.  There are as many methods and variations on methods as people.  Americans would be horrified to find out that Brits think Parelli = "traditional" American horse training methods!  

However, I think they've found and exploited a gap in the market.  So many people without much horse knowledge get horses and there are far more lost owners than good trainers, so they go to the books, youtube videos, and DVDs of these guys who are more available and widely known than other trainers might be.  Perhaps it depends on where you are, as well.  Where I learned to ride, you couldn't get out of bed without stepping on knowledgeable horsemen and women, so it was full of opportunities to learn.  This is not the case in every geographical location and in many places, there seems to be a vacuum.


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## jools123 (17 July 2012)

patterdale said:



			Am I the only one who thinks that a nervous middle aged lady who hasnt ridden for a while, is possibly not the person for a just backed 3 or 4 year old.....however well backed it is?
		
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that was my first thought too!


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## Luci07 (17 July 2012)

Actually I don't agree with you. I am lucky enough to see a lot of babies coming through our yard and I have seen some who have actually been easy enough to have a more novicey person sitting on them once they are settled in their work. Also I know quite a few older people, myself included who are competent amateurs but not as gung ho as we once were. My own horse was pretty much at the same stage as Janets mare and once I had assured myself he was sane (!) I was happy to get on and he has been a roaring success. Conversly there have been babies who you would think would be easy and yet have been very tricky!


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## Bikerchickone (17 July 2012)

Gorgeous mare and a really lovely video of her working. If only I'd seen your videos before my girl was backed. We didn't think to use a cavesson as well as a bridle and are now working very hard to get her to learn to work correctly. Luckily we've taken everything really slowly so she's a pleasure to work with and a very willing temperament helps. She's part ID too so maybe that's it! 

Please post more videos!


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## twisteddiamond (17 July 2012)

Billie1007 said:



			I read from the initial post that the lady was nervous as had hardly ridden for six months after losing her own. Bound to be nervous after a break but the fact that she once had her own until recently suggests she may have the appropriate experience? Just 'getting back in the saddle' nerves perhaps?
		
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this was how i picked it up


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## Patterdale (17 July 2012)

Luci - while im not necessarily disagreeing with you, I have started many, many young horses and one thing that you find is that the vast majority are very quiet to start with. It's 6 months down the line when they start to find their feet a bit that things start to go wrong, and you really do need, IMO, to be an experienced confident rider to have a young horse. 
I've lost count of the amount of times I've heard someone say their just backed horse is 'lazy' or 'very steady' 'calm' etc, when in fact young horses are often just like that while they're sizing up the situation. 
Particularly if they have been backed well, as I'm sure Janets are. 
But then, I wouldn't have thought the next step was to give it to a 'nervous, middle aged lady who hadn't ridden for a while.' 
Particularly the 3 year old!!

I'm not questioning anyones methods, but I must confess that this was my first thought when reading OP, amazed no one else seemed to think so. 

Imagine if it had been the other way round, and the 'nervous, middle aged lady' had posted to say they were thinking of buying a just backed 3yo?

Probably would have been different responses....


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## JanetGeorge (17 July 2012)

patterdale said:



			Am I the only one who thinks that a nervous middle aged lady who hasnt ridden for a while, is possibly not the person for a just backed 3 or 4 year old.....however well backed it is?
		
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You and me both!  BUT - she is a very experienced rider - and a sympathetic and sensitive one.  She was nervous because she hadn't ridden for quite a while and because she knew she was on a just backed horse who MIGHT have done anything.  At the end of 20 minutes on the mare, she was grinning like a Cheshire Cat!  She is coming back next week - and probably the week after - because that's how long SHE will take to decide between the two - and how long I will take to decide it's a suitable match.

In fact the chestnut filly's full sister was sold to a rider who had TOTALLY lost her confidence trying horses - she had tried 35!!!  More than half of them had scared her witless - and the rest were not as described. She got on the 3 year old filly in a half-frozen arena - and the grin took 10 minutes to arrive - then she hacked her out and found she WAS bomb-proof in traffic.  That 3 year old is 5 now - with same owner - and it's still a total love affair!  She regularly posts on my Facebook page about how wonderful Jolene is.

A PROPERLY brought up and started youngster is often more suitable than the vast majority of older horses  - as long as the rider is competent and has good back-up!  I would NEVER sell a horse to ANY rider unless I was confident it was a good match - and I've only got it wrong once (with a 5 year old - who napped in his new home and owner didn't smack his bum sharply for it.  So the little sod escalated (he WAS out of a TBx pony mare!)  I took him back for a full refund.


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## fizzer (17 July 2012)

I agree there is a difference between " nervous but experienced" and " nervous but novice"

 I admit to getting on anything a few years ago, since having the children and just riding my own horses  I know I would be a little nervous riding a newly backed horse i was going to view.


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## JanetGeorge (17 July 2012)

patterdale said:



			Luci - while im not necessarily disagreeing with you, I have started many, many young horses and one thing that you find is that the vast majority are very quiet to start with. It's 6 months down the line when they start to find their feet a bit that things start to go wrong, and you really do need, IMO, to be an experienced confident rider to have a young horse.
		
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Thaty is certainly true of MANY youngsters - especially TB x or WBs.  But NOT with IDs who have been bred for temperament and properly raised from day 1, before being VERY thoroughly backed and hacked!

I was not surprised when I heard from someone who bought a full brother to the grey mare as a yearling.  When he was nearly 4, he was sent to a professional trainer in the SW who RAVED about how easy he was - and who was sing HIM as the 'sensible escort' for other youngsters within a few weeks.

As long as the rider is basically competent - and is going to have help bringing them on - we have never had a problem with a youngster going wrong 6-12 months down the line.  In some ways it's a better start for them - as they're not rushed as much as they might be with a VERY confident rider!


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## montysmum1 (17 July 2012)

A lovely example of a good horse and good trainer! As i'm sure others have said, this is how it SHOULD be done.
I dont want to enter into any debates, but I have previously worked at a large equestrian centre where both and PP have put on demos, and quite frankly, seeing what goes on behind the scenes to these 'shows' is enough to put me off them, nevermind the fact that I would prefer to class myself in the 'common sense' brigade and ignore their hype and marketing.
Again, lovely job JanetGeorge


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## millsandboon (17 July 2012)

What lovely bird song in the video


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## Pale Rider (17 July 2012)

Nervous or novice, a sale is a sale.

No matter how many times they try a horse out, there is always problems a few weeks months down the line.

I agree with Patterdale you need experience with green horses.

When we were breeding, backing and selling I ended up refusing to sell to most who turned up, so we just stopped doing it.


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## JanetGeorge (17 July 2012)

millsandboon said:



			What lovely bird song in the video 

Click to expand...

Drivbes me mad - the bu**ers never stop!!  And we WON'T mention the mating pigeons who plunge down into the manege just as we get on a backer for the first time!  They're worse than the ruddy Air Force (we're on the Cosford flight path so get LOTS of low-flying planes of all sorts!)




			Nervous or novice, a sale is a sale.

No matter how many times they try a horse out, there is always problems a few weeks months down the line.

I agree with Patterdale you need experience with green horses.
		
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I often decline a sale if I think the horse and rider are unsuited - I want my babies to go to the RIGHT home - and stay there.  But you are TOTALLY wrong about 'always problems a few weeks/months down the line'!  We have the odd one who is unsettled in a new home in the first week - but I talk buyers through how to deal with that!  And I am still in touch with owners who have my horses - 3 - 4 years down the line - and they've had no problems worth mentioning!

How on EARTH does someone get experience with green horses if they never have one????  I've sold a number of babies to people who have never brought on a baby before.  I ensure they are sensible enough to get help, to contact me if they run into a problem or are not sure of the next step.  And they learn!  Several of my babies who have gone to people who have never brought on a young horse before are now winning and placing at Affiliated Dressage - 12 months later!!  Hardly a problem!


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## nikCscott (17 July 2012)

Sorry not read all what is Buckstop?


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## tristar (17 July 2012)

yes what's a buck stop, sounds frightfull, i have no respect for anyone who gets on baby horse that quick,  i thought the whole idea of the preparation phase was to start to develop the right muscles and achieve a little fitness, so you could ride away the newly backed horse almost as if it knows what its doing, well that's my experience.

i've taken to longreining in headcollar, in an enclosed space, so they can make their baby fumbles without the bit, and for a long time only backed at 4 years, the balance is better, so lunging is easier and the whole thing falls into place.


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## tallyho! (17 July 2012)

eahotson said:



			I ABSOLUTELY agree that NH is not the only way.Again it depends on your experiences.The TRADITIONAL way a few years ago was presented to me as no nonsense wack it if it doesn't behave.You get posters on here who write, I am no bunny hugger not me I have a stick and I know how to use it.So, like a lot ofpeople I was looking for kinder ways.I realize now that what was presented to me as traditional was just violent and ignorant horsemanship not traditional horsemanship.I think that there has always been educated and uneducated horsemanship.Elizabeth 1 had a horsemaster who wrote a book apparently, about horsemanship,which lasted until the early 19th century which talked much about kindness and gentleness in training horses.Of course that would only have been available to peopl ewho could afford it and could read.Not so many then.
I was interested in NH but not so much now.A lot seems a bit cultish and personality led.The best person with horses I have ever met is a guy called John Wilmott.Hugely experienced, very kind.The nearest thing I have ever found to a horse whisperer.Although he would deny that very firmly.No carrot sticks or any other fancy equipment.
A lot of novices end up in the natural horsemanship camp because its very hard to find really GOOD proffessional help and they struggle.I did for a long time but now have a fabulous instructor who has helped me so much and I am now in a happy place but I look around me and despair sometimes.
		
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I am sorry that you only found slap-happy professionals on your journey.

I don't know why they exist. Actually maybe I do know why. There was a time when German scholars were very popular in Britain. The barbaric methods still exist today. You won't need to look far to see it in action and actually exalted as gospel horse training. There was a also a famous french trainer whose methods were far from compassionate... and these were considered "classical". 

A book that helped me understand the chronology of horse training evolve was "The Royal Horse of Europe". It does not include American methodology (there are a few Americans who I like actually) but a lot of it shows you what it is based upon. Some of these men were responsible for training THOUSANDS of horses for battle - dressage. 

Much of the trainers I have met seem to follow the classical "masters". They have all shown compassion and fair discipline. None more than what a mare would use to discipline her foal. It makes sense. Poking a horse repeatedly makes no sense to me when one poke would suffice.

You could firmly put me in the classical camp - the kind one may I add. I am here with a tent, a kettle boiling on a fire so do join me for a cuppa and some marshmallows


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## mturnbull (17 July 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			A PROPERLY brought up and started youngster is often more suitable than the vast majority of older horses  - as long as the rider is competent and has good back-up!
		
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I completely 100% agree with this, my yearling stands better tied up, loads better in a trailer/lorry and stands to get her feet trimmed than many ''older'' horses on our yard (one of them being my other horse whos 15!)! 

JG I also wish you were eh about 6 hours closer to me as in 3 years time a set of eyes or another riders bottom would just go down a treat as the way you have described is pretty much the route I am going to go down!

As for the MR/Oarelli discussion on this thread I am just going to keep my tuppence to myself!


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## Tinypony (17 July 2012)

Don't take this the wrong way because I normally enjoy reading your posts Janet but, let's be honest, if Kelly Marks had come on here with a similar post to demonstrate that her way is better than for example Endospink, there would have been outrage and accusations of advertising.  Personally I'm not bothered if people post in this vein about what they do, it's all interesting to me and a lot of "advertising" threads backfire on the originator, but this does feel a bit unfair.

(There, I've said what others have been hinting at.  I'll now go and hide under a stone).


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## JanetGeorge (17 July 2012)

Tinypony said:



			Don't take this the wrong way because I normally enjoy reading your posts Janet but, let's be honest, if Kelly Marks had come on here with a similar post to demonstrate that her way is better than for example Endospink, there would have been outrage and accusations of advertising.  Personally I'm not bothered if people post in this vein about what they do, it's all interesting to me and a lot of "advertising" threads backfire on the originator, but this does feel a bit unfair.

(There, I've said what others have been hinting at.  I'll now go and hide under a stone).
		
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  I'm surprised someone hasn't pushed the button yet!  But I assure you it was NOT intended as an advertising post - frankly, the LAST thing I need is more outside horses to back as we're booked-up for the next 4 months and by then it will be time for me to start on a field FULL of my own 3 year olds (once I've got the last two 4 year olds started and finished!!)  Just as an example of how nicely a youngster can go if she's backed - given TIME - and no buck-stop or hype!


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## popeyesno1fan (18 July 2012)

hey guys, should i watch the video. I have a young mare into be ridden atm, should i do it my way or mr way. i want my friend to be able to sell her, so whats the story!!!!


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## ihatework (18 July 2012)

God, I'm probably going to be torn to shreds for this comment, and rest assured I'm not making it lightly, but as you back horses for a living, employ staff and therefore have some responsibility for their safety, and are promoting this video as a good example of backing then why is the handler not wearing gloves and why is the jockey in Wellies?

I'm all for personal choice, don't get me wrong there, and I fully agree with your approach to young horses. But in the context with which the video has been released/displayed I feel it would be prudent to highlight to less experienced people the safety aspect of correct footwear etc


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## RuthM (18 July 2012)

I think it would be incredibly sad if this thread was deemed advertising. Without people that get up and go to work with youngsters being able to actually speak about what they do there's a whole chunk of equine life unable to be discussed. 

My initial response to this thread was so tongue in cheek I think it didn't make clear what I actually wanted to say. Breaking isn't about speed, there's no use for speed to the horse, there's less time with speed for a horse to think, there's less opportunity with speed for the horse to learn, there's less time with speed to address issues that don't always show in day one. Apart from squashing the process into a showman demo space of time I can see no reason why it ever arose. Frankly if someone was to try and demo the long process no-one would pay to see a minimum of 6 weeks worth and if anyone did a huge chunk would be bored to death by it - it's not a merchandisable process. Of people that turn up supposedly keen to learn and with oodles of horse experience a significant chunk can't be bothered to pay attention long enough to something so effective but unflashy. 

In regard to experience and owning youngsters, there's no absolute about it. As long as someone has simple and sound riding skill, in my view, attitude always trumps experience and even talent. As someone who's seen a stream of riders on umpteen different horses I frequently switched off while a person trawled out what they saw as amazing experience and waited to see what they did, both in response to horses and in regard to their own self discipline to learn. The sad reality is that for many they can and do purchase experience, or their parents purchased it for them and frankly more than a few are a complete pain in the rump! On the other hand, someone with a earnest desire to keep learning, maybe nervous, maybe started as an adult, but who is not looking to pre madonna it on their new purchase, just to take things step by step; they, that kind, on a genuine and rightly schooled young horse can thrive. Older horses are only as good as their life before allows them to be and can come with a catalog of baggage for more engrained than any youngster. 

What's experience anyway? As years roll by 5 years starts to look like a novice, then 10, then 20 gets questioned if it's not the right experience. Experience is worse than height in terms of what it describes, at least there is an 'average' height to which a person can say they are tall or short, there's no average experience, type and length are as varied as each individual. Where breaking is concerned my old gaffa used to say you need 20+ neds under your belt before you have begun, I had begun, in other words was nowhere and happy to be so because it's the learning that's the buzz of breaking.


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## eahotson (18 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			I am sorry that you only found slap-happy professionals on your journey.

I don't know why they exist. Actually maybe I do know why. There was a time when German scholars were very popular in Britain. The barbaric methods still exist today. You won't need to look far to see it in action and actually exalted as gospel horse training. There was a also a famous french trainer whose methods were far from compassionate... and these were considered "classical". 

A book that helped me understand the chronology of horse training evolve was "The Royal Horse of Europe". It does not include American methodology (there are a few Americans who I like actually) but a lot of it shows you what it is based upon. Some of these men were responsible for training THOUSANDS of horses for battle - dressage. 

Much of the trainers I have met seem to follow the classical "masters". They have all shown compassion and fair discipline. None more than what a mare would use to discipline her foal. It makes sense. Poking a horse repeatedly makes no sense to me when one poke would suffice.

You could firmly put me in the classical camp - the kind one may I add. I am here with a tent, a kettle boiling on a fire so do join me for a cuppa and some marshmallows 

Click to expand...

Love to join you Tallyho!


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## Tinypony (18 July 2012)

I agree that it would be a shame if this thread were to be deemed advertising.  I'm pointing out what I consider to be an inconsistent approach.  I didn't think that the infamous thread by Kelly was advertising either.  As she is at the head of a very popular training organisatino in the UK (whatever people think of her approach) she hardly needs to tout her business on here.  Posting "Why not go to XX, he's brilliant" at regular intervals, when XX is your husband is a bit more dodgy maybe?
Popeyesno1fan - if you're serious then you either need to use an approach that you are confident with, or find a trainer that you trust.


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## diet2ride (18 July 2012)

Sorry just a quickie, otherwise i'll be late for school run. and not wanting to sound a numpty but what is MR?  

thanks, will read through later


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## RuthM (18 July 2012)

Monty Roberts.


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## Patterdale (18 July 2012)

For years Monty Roberts has been coming over every spring and starting every single one of the Queens horses. 

They look steady and happy enough on parades to me. 

I'm not disputing that your methods may work JG, but I don't think you should need to drag someone else's name down in an attempt to illustrate that.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2012)

Depends on personal viewpoints really, I hate to see threads pulled, but would also hate it if the floodgates to advertising opened on this forum.
As someone who has had some remedial work done on them by the Fat Controller, its just part of expressing your views, valid or not.
No doubt some anti Kelly Marks person complained, and having read Janet George's latest advertising campaign, I'm suprised someone from the Kelly camp hasn't returned the favour.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2012)

Agree with Patterdale on that one, Janet George is always having a go at MR and PP, you never hear them say a bad word about her, lol.


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## diet2ride (18 July 2012)

Doh! it came to me as I walked away: Monty Roberts ? that'll teach me to sneak a few mins on here before school... and i nearly forgot swimming kit. :-s


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## MagicMelon (18 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Agree with Patterdale on that one, Janet George is always having a go at MR and PP, you never hear them say a bad word about her, lol.
		
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I personally find MR and PP to be quite different in their methods.  MR seems to do what he does based on how horses treat each other in the wild (ie. join-up for example, although I know there was a thread the other day slagging this off).  PP however is totally different, IMO he is a business man who has made a lot of money out of telling nervous or inexperienced people that if they dont follow his methods then they're can never understand a horse. 

With regard to this post - the horse looks great and I'm sure has a super future. But I dont think its ever a good idea for a novice person to buy a youngster, yes some end up happy stories I'm sure but the vast majority don't and why take that risk. I've sold a few young ponies who I've backed and sold quite quickly afterwards - I've turned people away because their kids are just too novicey.


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## Patterdale (18 July 2012)

I agree PR. 

I've had an infraction for far, far less than this. 9 pages now of blatant advertising, AND badmouthing someone else in the process....

And no, I'm not a button pusher. 
But I'm amazed that no one else has been yet....


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2012)

Yes, I keep getting done, I suspect it is my NH views.
I think the Traditional Mafia, which are so abundant, control the Fat Controller, lol.


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## JanetGeorge (18 July 2012)

ihatework said:



			God, I'm probably going to be torn to shreds for this comment, and rest assured I'm not making it lightly, but as you back horses for a living, employ staff and therefore have some responsibility for their safety, and are promoting this video as a good example of backing then why is the handler not wearing gloves and why is the jockey in Wellies?
		
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I'm a stickler for safety on the things that count.  Rider is actually in someone else's Muck boots - which are safe to ride in - and are a size too big - because she filled her boots with mud that morning going through a very mucky gateway.  And Phil rarely wears gloves unless the horse is VERY wild - even then he prefers not too because he says he can't grip in them if a horse takes off.  (And he's held some very strong horses without ropeburn - not least because we use cushioned lunge lines rather than the nasty nylon hand slicers.)  On gloves it's choice - hats and sensible handling are compulsory!


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## tallyho! (18 July 2012)

I don't wear gloves.... My callouses are much gripper than a pair of gloves


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## JanetGeorge (18 July 2012)

RuthM said:



			I think it would be incredibly sad if this thread was deemed advertising. Without people that get up and go to work with youngsters being able to actually speak about what they do there's a whole chunk of equine life unable to be discussed.
		
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Exactly RuthM - almost every day there are threads from people wanting to back their own horse and asking hows and whys!  A video gives SOME idea of just one stage - and it's very boring when there's no chasing around a round pen or wild bucking.  Hopefully a few people will have got some ideas from this one of simple things which a lot of people haven't thought of yet - the use of the cavesson to help teach steering and stopping without risking damage to the horse's mouth, the use of the person on the ground to help teach 'forward' to the legs etc. 




			Agree with Patterdale on that one, Janet George is always having a go at MR and PP, you never hear them say a bad word about her, lol.
		
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Always????  Apart from the thread on the latest bit of 'research' I don't remember when I last bothered commenting on an MR thread - and the last Parelli thread I think I commented on was the Catwalk video!  And - actually - MR and PP are CONSTANTLY saying bad words about me - and hundreds more trainers like me when they claim THEY are the only ones who care about kindness etc and that 'traditional' methods are bad!!

And - of course - they make it quite difficult to justify the 6-8 weeks it takes to do a decent job of backing a young horse when they promote methods that let them 'back' a young horse in a few hours (and of course these horses are 'sat on' - but are NOT ready for the owners to ride safely!)


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## Marydoll (18 July 2012)

While this is an interesting thread, i am another whos surprised its still going


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## eahotson (18 July 2012)

I went to a Monty Roberts demo where they backed a previously unridden horse.Monty said that people then ask him if the horse is ready to be ridden away and he said NO.I did think at the time, well why do it then? But hey ho.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2012)

Bit egotistical there Janet, be careful, it's hard not to believe your own hype.


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## RuthM (18 July 2012)

Exactly RuthM - almost every day there are threads from people wanting to back their own horse and asking hows and whys! A video gives SOME idea of just one stage - and it's very boring when there's no chasing around a round pen or wild bucking. Hopefully a few people will have got some ideas from this one of simple things which a lot of people haven't thought of yet - the use of the cavesson to help teach steering and stopping without risking damage to the horse's mouth, the use of the person on the ground to help teach 'forward' to the legs etc.
		
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On this we must differ. I had a gutfull for re-breaks after lone attempts at it. I think using professionals with dozens of horses under their belt and the reputation to match is vastly underated. I'd ban bloody DVDs and demos - the 'do not try this at home' is a pathetic disclaimer to prevent legal action and nowt but a profound idiot fails to be aware that many will try this at home, many. A farrier is paid to shoe a horse, very few believe that by virtue of radically different experience they are equipped, in many ways the same is true of breaking, it is different and I think it takes years to learn, years with endless different horses and a fine tutor. If you said that you'd nail your own coffin no matter who much you might hate to have 'extra business' or how happy you might be with what you have already. My old gaffa never advertised, and wouldn't have advertised even for free.

I'm fortunate to have the dignity to post under my own first name, I was a groom, ergo invisible to 95% of the horse world, my name is worth little except to me. I would not and never will name the yard I worked for, because they are still friends and there's nothing more spooky than finding yourself talked about by a friend publicly - just ewww! 

The above gives me the freedom to say that the frustration felt by those doing the slog I know to be extreme, and how, if not as you have done, can it be expressed? Without a name (in many ways rightfully) no-one would listen to a jot I could say but if you have that background you equally get gagged.  

If the pro's are disallowed to speak then it gives showmen free rein to persuade without dissent. Heaven help us.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2012)

Safe to ride, Janet, I understand that these horses are only started by MR, no claims being made that they are safe. As I understand it this is just the start of their education and they are brought on over the months and years.
I think saying an in backed horse is safe to ride in 6 to 8 weeks, for a novice rider is a far bigger claim.


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## tristar (18 July 2012)

mrs george often comes across a bit like she's advertising, but i don't see how she can separate showing what she does and somehow seeming to promoting her professional work, why not?

she often  takes the time to answer people's questions in various threads without judgement and offers effective ideas whatever the subject.

i think the video clip is shows a young horse working calmly and its only by seeing clips like this that a lot of people who are'nt on prof yards will ever begin to understand what it can be like, also it must be in the interests of horses welfare  to put vidoes like this on here.


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## eahotson (18 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Safe to ride, Janet, I understand that these horses are only started by MR, no claims being made that they are safe. As I understand it this is just the start of their education and they are brought on over the months and years.
I think saying an in backed horse is safe to ride in 6 to 8 weeks, for a novice rider is a far bigger claim.
		
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Well then, why didn't Monty EXPLAIN.You see I am, like a lo t of people, quite novice especially about backing and breaking horses.If I had been thinking (perish the thought) about breaking my own I could have come away with some very strange ideas.If you are talking to novices you have to EXPLAIN a lot more, not assume knowledge.He should have said Over the next few weeks the owner will have to do the following and give advice.Instead of which, basically he just said, look how much faster I can do it than your traditional breakers.And what was the point of doing it at the demo really? Loading issues and some stuff I can understand, but not that.I like some of the stuff that Kelly does/says and respect her as a good alround horsewoman.I don't think Janet is advertizing for what its worth.I am sure that there are people up and down the country backing horses in much the same way.She was just trying to show the difference between Montys methods and, for want of a better word, the more traditional way.
I agree I would have reservations about a newly broken horse for a novice/nervous person but if the horse was a genuine one and they had VERY good back up from a genuinely good person (which usually costs a lot of money)then I guess it could work.


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## RuthM (18 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Safe to ride, Janet, I understand that these horses are only started by MR, no claims being made that they are safe. As I understand it this is just the start of their education and they are brought on over the months and years.
I think saying an in backed horse is safe to ride in 6 to 8 weeks, for a novice rider is a far bigger claim.
		
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What? In reality around 30% of the horse owning world who think they are amazing are ruddy useless. Every single breaking yard HAS TO repeatedly idiot proof horses within 6 to 8 weeks because people will not pay for more, and they have to do so again and again and again. A good reputation is not 90% success - if one out of ten went wrong afterwards the person would be ripped to hell and gone. 95% is not enough one in twenty wouldn't cut it either! A good yard may have around 5 in privately owned at any one time, 3 to 4 of which will be ridden at home by solid riders but it's a fact of life that the other one or two belong to people who are rubbish and have no clue they are rubbish.

It's not a grand claim at all, it is every day life in the real world and without those willing to dig in and deal with it the horses owned by fruitloops, grown up brats and crackpots wouldn't even get a basic good backing.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2012)

I think you'll find its more like 70 per cent are ruddy useless. Lol.


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## RuthM (18 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			I think you'll find its more like 70 per cent are ruddy useless. Lol.
		
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Then, surely, one must accept my point was wholly valid. It's not a big claim, it's a mundane reality.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2012)

I do take your point, but, how does a horse feel about being made idiot proof.
I know so many who say, "i have to do this, because that's what will happen"

I've been down this route, and keep having to turn people away is no way to make any money. We all have to eat.


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2012)

I've started hundreds of horses, and all this, I can do it in 2hrs, 10hrs, a week, or 10 weeks is balls, 
It takes as long as it takes, they are all different, and the majority not difficult, thank goodness.

Once started, it's the bringing on that can make a horse or turn it into a lifetime of pain.


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## Tinypony (18 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			I've started hundreds of horses, and all this, I can do it in 2hrs, 10hrs, a week, or 10 weeks is balls, 
It takes as long as it takes, they are all different, and the majority not difficult, thank goodness.

Once started, it's the bringing on that can make a horse or turn it into a lifetime of pain.
		
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Yes.  Agree.  Although thinking about it, the way I've seen some people muck up the very early stages I guess the pain can start even before it has a saddle on it's back.  

Oh, and I don't consider gloves to be essential safety wear either.  

Arguments above for Janet being allowed to post about what she does sound remarkably similar to those expressed in support of Kelly posting.  In fact, I'd argue that Kelly is more famous than Janet, so she had even less to gain by explaining how she goes about things and why she thinks it's good.  Famous as Janet is (!) I hadn't heard of her before seeing her post on the IHDG.


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## Cuffey (18 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			I've started hundreds of horses, and all this, I can do it in 2hrs, 10hrs, a week, or 10 weeks is balls, 
It takes as long as it takes, they are all different, and the majority not difficult, thank goodness.

Once started, it's the bringing on that can make a horse or turn it into a lifetime of pain.
		
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Exactly, totally agree, but also do think Monty's background was accepting that the job had to be done quickly and he looked for a better way than the traditional cowboy method of ''breaking''


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## RuthM (18 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			I do take your point, but, how does a horse feel about being made idiot proof.
I know so many who say, "i have to do this, because that's what will happen"

I've been down this route, and keep having to turn people away is no way to make any money. We all have to eat.
		
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I don't think (honestly) that they are cognisant of it at all. It is just training, just reality. It doesn't change what's done, no rush for a 1hr job. The difference is probably the the point where the decision is made to get the owner on board and the advice given for what next. Again - it comes back to reality, some won't listen, some will but the point is 6/8 weeks is one hell of a lot more chances to prepare the horse for both the listeners and the pre maddonas. 

Another flat, hard reality is that there are those not giving any of the above and who MUST be aware of the consequences of demos and DVDs but make a shed load of cash. If a breaking yard should turn down every horse they believe has a less than amazing owner - how much more should a showman refuse to show what they know will be copied by those they've not even met?


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2012)

Well, I think that the DVD is much maligned here on this forum.
No you cannot learn it all from a  DVD, nor could you from a book a few years ago, but it didn't stop people reading around the subject.

No sensible person would take up a pastime like horses without some sort of instruction, I know a few numpties will try it, but there will always be the odd idiot.

I like to see what can be achieved, and how they achieve it. Like anything though, when things get competitive, horses suffer.


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## rhino (18 July 2012)

If someone watches a MR demo, or a PP one, or any of JG's videos, and decides that they have seen enough to replicate that at home, then that is THEIR fault. 

Maybe novices shouldn't watch GP dressage, or international eventing, or showjumping, as we might think we can do that too  What about watching stunts in films? Personally I generally try to avoid jumping off large buildings, or being set on fire, as I don't think I'd be terribly good at that either. 

Every practitioner I have seen, of any type, has NOT said watch me for an hour and look what you can go and do! Aren't people always complaining about the expense/time taken to follow certain NH training programmes? If people are stupid enough to think that they can do something, with neither the knowledge or the experience, that is their fault, so why do we not apportion at least some of the blame at them?


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## dafthoss (18 July 2012)

rhino said:



			If someone watches a MR demo, or a PP one, or any of JG's videos, and decides that they have seen enough to replicate that at home, then that is THEIR fault. 

Maybe novices shouldn't watch GP dressage, or international eventing, or showjumping, as we might think we can do that too  What about watching stunts in films? Personally I generally try to avoid jumping off large buildings, or being set on fire, as I don't think I'd be terribly good at that either. 

Every practitioner I have seen, of any type, has NOT said watch me for an hour and look what you can go and do! Aren't people always complaining about the expense/time taken to follow certain NH training programmes? If people are stupid enough to think that they can do something, with neither the knowledge or the experience, that is their fault, so why do we not apportion at least some of the blame at them?
		
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What?!?  you mean I shouldnt enter the YP for burghley this year because I watched it on telly last year


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2012)

Rhino, my point exactly, but better put.


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## rhino (18 July 2012)

dafthoss said:



			What?!?  you mean I shouldnt enter the YP for burghley this year because I watched it on telly last year 

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Och you'll be fine 



Pale Rider said:



			Rhino, my point exactly, but better put.
		
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 We're _agreeing_ on something?

*goes to edit previous post*


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## Caol Ila (18 July 2012)

I just wish poor old Monty would stop being the straw man for a general slagging of NH-style methods.  Monty is a very good example of Monty's methods.  Other trainers who roughly fall into the NH category may have some similarities in what they do, but other respects they are quite different.


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## RuthM (18 July 2012)

I'm going to bow out, we won't agree. Perhaps you see people attempting 'join up' as rare as those that think they can enter burghley after watching it on the telly. I disagree but acknowledge there is no way to evidence my position. 

I can't really add to what I've said so far, people are going to make their own mind up. I still think it would be both sad and harmful to gag dissent.


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## Caol Ila (18 July 2012)

I don't see anyone attempting "join-up."  Most folk up my way are completely dismissive of NH-style methods.

On the other hand, I got told the other day that my riding looked "western" (in spite of a squillion years of dressage lessons) so what do I know about "English" methods.


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## EllenJay (18 July 2012)

And once again JG is subtly advertising her services................

She wouldn't allow it on her forum but it is fine here.


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## JanetGeorge (18 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			I've started hundreds of horses, and all this, I can do it in 2hrs, 10hrs, a week, or 10 weeks is balls, 
It takes as long as it takes, they are all different, and the majority not difficult, thank goodness.

Once started, it's the bringing on that can make a horse or turn it into a lifetime of pain.
		
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Now there's something we can agree on!  'Basic backing' you can often do in a few days - had a 3 year old filly I bought 7 years ago and wanted JUST backed before she went to the stallion.  Day 1 - lunge, day 2 - lunge with tack on, day 3 - lay over and walk a few steps, day 4 - sit up and ride forward on the lunge in walk and trot, day 5 - hack up the drive!  Then she went in foal and has been breeding beautiful babies with fab temperaments ever since.  But we don't try to back THEM in 5 days (though we could) because they are going out to have ridden careers and need more time invested in the basics!

We had two last year which both took MONTHS (one nearly 5 months, the other closer to 6 months!!)  Both had physical and 'mental' issues - and needed lots of physio before we could start properly and then oodles of patience.  Both Warmbloods, of course!   Thankfully, both had owners who were prepared to invest in their futures!


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## JanetGeorge (18 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			I think you'll find its more like 70 per cent are ruddy useless. Lol.
		
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That is - IMHO - arrogant and wrong!  Obviously there is a HUGE range of experiences and capabilities amongst the horse-owning public.  There are a lot who have been steered in the wrong direction - or haven't had the opportunities to learn as much as they need to know - but the majority of owners who bring horses to me really CARE about their horses and getting it right!!  As do the majority of people who come to me looking for horses to buy!  They WANT to learn and they WANT to get it right!  The minority (who think they know it all and don't want to listen or learn) just get sent packing!


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## JanetGeorge (18 July 2012)

Tinypony said:



			Famous as Janet is (!) I hadn't heard of her before seeing her post on the IHDG.
		
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  And I got banned from there!  Famous I am NOT!  Older people who hunt have heard of me from my time at BFSS/Countryside Alliance (when I was a little bit infamous!), and BHS members remember me from the BHS forum, Magazine etc. when I worked there.  HHO members 'know' me from 10 years of posting, and Irish Draught people have heard of me too.  Outside those circles,  and Saddle-up, I'm nobody! 




			And once again JG is subtly advertising her services................

She wouldn't allow it on her forum but it is fine here.
		
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Aw Gee, EllenJay - did I ban you??   An enormous number of members advertise subtly on my forum - as long as they are subtle, and CONTRIBUTE to debates (rather than just plugging themselves) I turn a blind eye!


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## Pale Rider (18 July 2012)

Why put your 'humble opinion', its rarely that, JG, lol.

Arrogant I may be, but at least I'm not trying to wind green horses into green riders.

Neither do I think its right to keep having people back time after time to put things right.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (18 July 2012)

The problem with forums is that eventually some people start to blow their own trumpets. But when a business slags off another business, questions should be asked.


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## JanetGeorge (18 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Why put your 'humble opinion', its rarely that, JG, lol.

Arrogant I may be, but at least I'm not trying to wind green horses into green riders.

Neither do I think its right to keep having people back time after time to put things right.
		
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Who is?  Certainly not me!  But riders who have never brought on a youngster before HAVE to start sometime, don't they??  Just as someone who has never backed a horse before HAS to start sometime if they are to ever stand a chance of getting good at it - although they should - of course - have suitable help!!   And who has "people back time after time to put things right"?  Again, not me!  But then not everyone works as hard as I do to put together a suitable partnership!

You're just nit-picking now Pale Rider!


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## EllenJay (18 July 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



 



Aw Gee, EllenJay - did I ban you??   An enormous number of members advertise subtly on my forum - as long as they are subtle, and CONTRIBUTE to debates (rather than just plugging themselves) I turn a blind eye!
		
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No - I am very unoffensive so do not get myself banned from anywhere - I also do not do blatent advertising that is completly against T&C's.


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## EllenJay (18 July 2012)

JanetGeorge said:




Aw Gee, EllenJay - did I ban you??   An enormous number of members advertise subtly on my forum - as long as they are subtle, and CONTRIBUTE to debates (rather than just plugging themselves) I turn a blind eye!
		
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I have already answered this once - but on thinking about your response I actually find this much more insulting than my original reply.  You actuall think that because I am angry about you flouting the t&c's on this forum is beause you banned me from you site is really insulting.  just because you may be petty minded does not mean that other people are.  

You could not answer the charge that you are advertising so you decide to insinuate that I am annoyed because of a personal issue between us.  

Go away - you may be a big person on your own site - but here you are just someone who is flouting the rules to your own profit.


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## tallyho! (18 July 2012)

Fwiw... I didn't know that JG was a trainer until she posted this. I thought she was just showing the way many people back horses all over the UK. Now I do know, I still don't think it is advertising! 

The amount of stuff posted in here about methods of training could also be classed as advertising if you really want to go down that route but in all fairness. What about breeders advertising stallions? Shoeing issues advertising farriers or barefoot trimmers? Books being mentioned?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (18 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Fwiw... I didn't know that JG was a trainer until she posted this. I thought she was just showing the way many people back horses all over the UK. Now I do know, I still don't think it is advertising! 

The amount of stuff posted in here about methods of training could also be classed as advertising if you really want to go down that route but in all fairness. What about breeders advertising stallions? Shoeing issues advertising farriers or barefoot trimmers? Books being mentioned?
		
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Seriously, you didn't know that JG was trainer?  Crikey, I've got half your post count and even I knew that - and I'm not the most observant in the book either!


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## tallyho! (18 July 2012)

blazingsaddles said:



			Seriously, you didn't know that JG was trainer?  Crikey, I've got half your post count and even I knew that - and I'm not the most observant in the book either!

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I spend faaaarrrrr too much time talking about hooves clearly


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## EllenJay (18 July 2012)

blazingsaddles said:



			Seriously, you didn't know that JG was trainer?  Crikey, I've got half your post count and even I knew that - and I'm not the most observant in the book either!

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And I have even less-  but I knew.  JG doesn't post on anything other than training issues - and they are always advertising on how her way is best.  Very clever business woman - getting FREE advertising on HHO.

I have button pushed - but no response from TFC - maybe he has a vested interest???


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## RuthM (18 July 2012)

I didn't know who Janet was.


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## tallyho! (18 July 2012)

EllenJay said:



			And I have even less-  but I knew.  JG doesn't post on anything other than training issues - and they are always advertising on how her way is best.  Very clever business woman - getting FREE advertising on HHO.

I have button pushed - but no response from TFC - maybe he has a vested interest???
		
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Hey, look, the world is a big place. Just because I don't know who she is does not make me a lesser person than you or blazing saddles. I notice what I want to notice, and take in what is relevant to me. That is how things usually work right?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (18 July 2012)

In fairness to JG, she does post on other topics - and very good advice it is too from the replies I've seen.


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## Honey08 (18 July 2012)

Can't believe someone pushed the button over this thread.  Its probably one of the most interesting debates that has been on here for a long time!

I don't actually think that Janet George posts that much, and so what if she is a trainer/breeder.  She just posts things that have happened with her - just like anyone else on here does.  I'm an instructor, as are many others on here, so are we advertising when we try and help those struggling??


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## EllenJay (18 July 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Hey, look, the world is a big place. Just because I don't know who she is does not make me a lesser person than you or blazing saddles. I notice what I want to notice, and take in what is relevant to me. That is how things usually work right?
		
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Sorry - not having a go at you in any way, and in fact really pleased that you hadn't heard of JG, but I am very anoyed about the blatent self advertising that JG is so good at.  This woman has a way of advertising her services, with some of the good and great of HHO supporting her.  I am not saying that she is a charleton but I do not think that she has the right to slag other people off whilst advertising herself.

My comment about you not knowing whe she was, was down to surprise as she is so good with her personal adverts, and nothing deterimental about your lack of knowledge of who she is.


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## tallyho! (18 July 2012)

Well, obviously someone with a bit of previous issues. I hope TFC does not pull such an interesting thread. I personally am thrilled to see a British trainer getting airtime on here and more ought to be joining in not knocking each other out!!! 

But hey ho, what do I know....


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## tallyho! (18 July 2012)

But ellenjay, with all respect to you, and I do not know of you either, I am missing why she shouldn't have support? Why shouldn't British people have support? Maybe I have missed a crucial piece of information and I am barking up the wrong tree, forgive me if I am. And to all extents and purposes, if you are a trainer, we should be supporting you if you train in a compassionate and caring way.


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## asommerville (18 July 2012)

Have seen a number of jg posts not advertising...good advice in general and commented on one of mine re a question i had about a stallion.  personally i think its an interesting thread, particularly to someone like me who backed their own or is in the process of backing.  i dont see jg say give me your horse and ill break it, just good advice given.

This is not the place for personal issues to be brought up.


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## JanetGeorge (18 July 2012)

EllenJay said:



			I have already answered this once - but on thinking about your response I actually find this much more insulting than my original reply.  You actuall think that because I am angry about you flouting the t&c's on this forum is beause you banned me from you site is really insulting.  just because you may be petty minded does not mean that other people are.  

You could not answer the charge that you are advertising so you decide to insinuate that I am annoyed because of a personal issue between us.  

Go away - you may be a big person on your own site - but here you are just someone who is flouting the rules to your own profit.
		
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I DID answer the charge of advertising many pages back actually - and there is usually a reason someone takes a set against someone else on a forum!  I often find people having a go at me - and when I check their posts I find they are very anti-hunting (so they hate me!)

I actually post far more in the Breeding forum than here - because I am primarily a breeder (and no, I wasn't promoting the grey in the video as she is already sold!)  And I don't NEED to promote the training side of my business here - because whenever a thread comes up asking for recommendations, one of my happy customers usually steps in first!  I don't NEED to advertise.  What I WAS trying to do is to show how some of us 'traditional' trainers bring on a young horse - taking time, patience, and no nasty gadgets!!

As for your last remark - if this thread gets pulled it will be because it has turned 'nasty' - and you will be partly to blame.  I've been a member of this forum for more than 10 years and devoted a lot of time and effort to giving advice on a variety of topics to people who will NEVER be customers - I do it because I want to put something back into the horse world and help people (as others have helped me over the past 60 years!)  Paid advertising would actually be a FAR cheaper way of promoting my business (if I needed to) than answering numerous posts and PMs from people seeking help.  So perhaps YOU should go away and learn a little common courtesy!


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## EllenJay (18 July 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			I DID answer the charge of advertising many pages back actually - and there is usually a reason someone takes a set against someone else on a forum!  I often find people having a go at me - and when I check their posts I find they are very anti-hunting (so they hate me!)
		
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So you have checked that I havn't been banned from your own site, so you are now bringing out the "I hate hunting card" - where that has come from god know where as I regularly hunted with the East Kent, the Aldenham harriers and others, so that is'nt going to fly, but I still object to your blatent advertising.  

I am not in the business - I do not have young horses who I want to sell ( you do).  I do not want to sell my training skills - (You do).  I do not want to make a mark on the horse world - oH!  once again you do!!

Your comments about "If this thread gets pulled it is because it has turned nasty - and you will be partly to blame" - how can you justify that - when, unlike you I am not selling anything.  I have nothing to gain - where YOU are going against the rules and blatently advertising your services.

If you had started this post with video samples of how other people had brought on their youngesters sucessfully without blowing your own trumpet I would have given you full support - but no in the usual JG way it is all about you.

And now I am once again ready for the slagging off - "You are unhappy because you ahve been banned from my site" - "Your are unhapy because you are anit hunting" - *"You are unhappy because you own a training yard",  "You are unhappy because ................................."


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## sandy3924 (18 July 2012)

Just wanted to add that my horse was started, as a 5 year old, by a Monty Roberts RA.  He spent 5 weeks with this amazing horseman and I couldnt have wished for a better start for my horse.  I would recommend this wonderful, caring, knowledgeable horseman in an instant.


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## tallyho! (18 July 2012)

Oh dear.... Goodbye interesting thread, like so many others, you will be missed......


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## Syrah (18 July 2012)

Does JanetGeorge need to advertise?  I doubt it.

I enjoy watching JG's videos and reading her posts as with alot of other posters on here.  JG's horses are a credit to her and her staff.  Even if this thread hadn't been posted, her yard would have been my first port of call if I was ever to consider riding and owning a horse again.

Keep posting the vids - love them!


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## JanetGeorge (18 July 2012)

EllenJay said:



			And now I am once again ready for the slagging off - "You are unhappy because you ahve been banned from my site" - "Your are unhapy because you are anit hunting" - *"You are unhappy because you own a training yard",  "You are unhappy because ................................."
		
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Dearie, I have NO idea why you are so miserable!  Maybe you don't have a nice bottle of red wine to hand.  Or maybe you're sad because your spelling is rubbish!  Whatever!  Please accept my condolences for your misery!


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## misterjinglejay (19 July 2012)

*poking my head above the parapet to say* 

EJ - there does appear to be some personal issues surrounding yourself and JG. Noone else seems to have a problem with this thread, and from what I can see, we're all enjoying, and possibly, learning from it.

It would be a shame for another interesting topic to disappear, and as we are all in this for the good of the horse, surely it makes sense to learn/listen to everyone (with some notable exceptions - granted) - our horses may thank us for it!

So, why not put any personal differences aside, sit back and read, and put some thought into our horses, and not our egos.

*ducking down again, now with coffee*


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## PandorasJar (19 July 2012)

Decent thread and nice to see patience in training a horse rather than being rushed. The only issue was perhaps the title, 'not rushed' or something similar may have been more appropriate.

But I think JG has (as she says) put a lot of time on the forum into giving people advice and suggestions foc and without pushing herself as the answer. I certainly think her advice is usually worth taking!

Pan


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## Wheels (19 July 2012)

Back to the original topic maybe 

The video was lovely to watch, this horse has obviously been trained in a nice way, doesn't look scared or stressed and it is also nice to see a cavesson being used along with the bit to start off with.

I am just going through the pre-backing process with my youngster, we are long reining in straightish lines with a dually to begin with and doing some light in-hand work with the bit before introducting lunging in a few weeks.  JG's comments on this thread and on other threads where advice has been given has helped me have a better understanding about certain things, particularly tips about really instilling voice commands prior to actually getting on board


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## Pale Rider (19 July 2012)

I've had a look at the video and I think its very peaceful, and as traditional training goes, excellent.

Compairing what is going on with how we start youngsters, there are of course some differences. Just highlighting what we do differently is not in any way a critcism of this, its just different and what we prefer.

By the time our youngster is this age, we will have been doing groundwork with it on a regular basis.

By the time the horse accepts the saddle and rider to do exactly what is going on here. The horse will have been trained in a rope head collar, it will have been bitted but that is all, the bit for us comes much later.

The horse will circle as in the video, and will maintain gait and direction. I would expect to ask once for walk, trot or canter and the horse will do that. We don't constantly move the schooling whip, it stays in a neutral position. I would only take it out of neutral if the horse failed to change gait when asked.

The rider will be using a rope head collar, and the horse will already understand how to disengage its hind quarters when asked, which is taught on the ground.

Apart from not ever using voice commands, thats about it.

Plenty to discuss there I suppose


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## Wheels (19 July 2012)

PR that's interesting, you never use voice commands? Not even lunging and long reining or Don't you do those either?


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## PandorasJar (19 July 2012)

Wheels said:



			PR that's interesting, you never use voice commands? Not even lunging and long reining or Don't you do those either?
		
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I find this interesting too.

Personally I'd never do without vocal aids. Great when horses are out in the field and not wanting to be caught to just whistle and come over or call stand and they dutifully freeze. Same if a horse is loose.

My youngster will do vocal commands in the field, she's a bit of a smarty pants and froze with hoof mid air for stand at first to ensure a reward 

I have different tones for diferent commands and then have physical aids to back it up

Pan


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## Wheels (19 July 2012)

And also what happens if / when the horse is sold on? If he doesn't know voice aids then that makes life difficult for the new owner surely?


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## Janah (19 July 2012)

I use my voice a lot to great effect, and my boy is 21 yrs old, very useful in an emergency situation as well.

As for JG advertising, there are a few livery yard owners on here, so are they advertising?

I think not!

A very interesting thread, and I have no ambition to start a youngster, way beyond me.


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## Lucyad (19 July 2012)

There are a lot of folk on here who earn money from horses, in one way or another.  it would be a shame if none were allowed to post about their lives, acheivements or experiences.  I found the video and discussion very ineresting - thanks for posting.


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## TarrSteps (19 July 2012)

It always makes me a bit confused (and sad) that these discussions about how to start/train horses are based on an adversarial premiss - "we" are doing it right, "these other people" are doing it wrong.  I just haven't seen that in my travels.  I've seen good and bad horsemen in every sphere, producing lovely horses and damaged ones respectively.  I haven't generally found it matters much which hat they wear, so long as their principles are sensible, empathetic, take into account the horse's long term health and happiness AND recognise that most horses will have to live in the real world with the rest of us and you're not necessarily doing them any favours by making things too "perfect" or adhering too strictly to a relatively uncommon path.

Why does it have to be "Americans are bad, British people are good"?  I don't think because I've met a few people here who seem to assume being British makes them inherently good horsemen (when evidence might suggest otherwise) everyone here feels or acts that way.  Nor do I think because you see people hammering driving horses down paved roads here (something you hardly ever see in North America, perhaps outside of Mennonite/Amish etc areas) means everyone thinks that's desirable behaviour.  Even saying "cowboys did this" isn't wholly accurate as there are certainly respected trainers with huge following from that school of thought who are brilliant horsemen.  

I will say - and this is me being hugely reductionist and judgemental - there do seem to be a lot more defensive people here.  I just never hear Americans (or Germans, or French etc) give much time to saying "Those British people are doing it wrong."  Maybe it's a New World thing - there is simply not "an American" school of thought - but I am curious why successful people steeped in such tradition of horsemanship feel the need to define themselves externally.  What does it matter what other people do if you're doing a good job?  And why does other people doing something differently - and successfully - negate your own efforts?  I agree it's annoying to see people doing something you love and are good at in a "bad" way but that's hardly limited to one school of thought!  People can choose how they progress with their horse - why would we want it to be different?

The "problem" with MR, Parelli et al is the publicity, no?  Monty, to give him his due, does not recommend that people break a horse in a day and consider the job done.  I agree there's a disconnect in actually DOING that for performance purposes but I guess his original purpose was to prove such a thing could be done without violence (even though he's hardly the only person to think that).  Quick "colt starting" is a real tradition in the cowboy world (originally practical, obviously, but now mainly competitive) so I guess his point was you can get that done without tying the horse down etc.  Now, whether you agree or not with the basic idea (I do not, because I do not live in a world where the rewards of it outweigh the risks) is a different story but there is a context for his original point.

Should people who have their own horse seek to emulate that?  No, of course not.  Why?  They are not constrained by time AND they don't have the experience to make the right calls that quickly.  (Yes, experience comes with practice but if you are going to learn to do something you learn to do it right, then you learn to do it quickly.)

Also, as has been said above, horses are individuals.  The guys doing demos do pick and choose appropriate horses.  And they admit this but perhaps not firmly and loudly enough.  

Starting horses in a day is a "trick", really it is.  I guess it comes down to responsibility - is it the responsibility of the showman to explain why the audience cannot/should not do as they do?  On the other hand, as also discussed, if someone goes to a Oli Townend demo or buys a Tim Stockdale DVD do they instantly think it makes them an expert at eventing or showjumping?  

I would have to agree though with RuthM and her suggestion that GOOD professional starting of horses is underrated. Which is not to say that people can't or shouldn't start their own, but why is it assumed it's "easy" or that every horses would be suitable for every novice to learn on.  Learning, by definition, means making mistakes and ANYONE starting a horse does have to at least acknowledge that their mistakes might cost a horse for a life time.  If they accept that, if they are humble and make it about the horse, not themselves, then they will probably be all right or at least will get help when they need it. 

The minute it becomes about ego, about proving you can do it/do it better, when it stops being always about asking the questions, "Does the horse understand?  Is the horse progressing?  Are we both safe?" then there are far more likely to be problems.

It's a trick.  We all need to work in a proven system (novices and professionals alike) but at the same time, the horse has to always be more important than slavish devotion to ANY system.


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## Janah (19 July 2012)

Lucyad, you put it so much better than I did!


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## AMH (19 July 2012)

I do think this is a very interesting thread and don't feel the OP is promoting her services.

However, I do think it's a shame that it's pitched in the context of 'this method is 'better' than that method'.

Why not just celebrate that time and patience reap their own reward?

As others have mentioned, NH does not hold the monopoly on poor practise. There are many who break by the 'traditional' method who cause discomfort and distress as a means to a 'quick-fix' end, and also use gadgets to facilitate that. 

And, for the record, I have no NH agenda - I'm not an exponent and have never encountered it other than at the odd demo.


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## Caol Ila (19 July 2012)

What a great post, TarrSteps.  You said what I had been trying to say, only you said it much better!

The problem I had with this thread from the outset was how it was phrased as an "us" v. "them."  I've said, repeatedly, that Janet's methods looks really nice but then it became this whole "British" v. "American" thing, which was a load of tosh.  I am American.  I learned how to train a horse where I grew up in Colorado, so I'm familiar with what goes on out there.  Time and patience were indeed celebrated and the one-day colt starting clinics were not the norm for the average horse owner.  

In any case, NH-style trainers like Mark Rashid and Buck Brannaman have stated explicitly that they will not do "colt starting" clinics.  Mark wrote in one of his books that a horse only gets once chance in its life to have its first ride, and he doesn't think a busy, stressful, noisy clinic is the place for that.  So even amongst trainers who can be broadly placed underneath the same umbrella, there are disagreements and differences.


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## FairyLights (19 July 2012)

slightly OT but I wanted to ask Janet if she takes cients horses for backing and then selling on. I have a 2 yr old who wont be big enough for me. I am thinking about next year.


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## TarrSteps (19 July 2012)

I'm not British or American.   Maybe that's why it bothers me so much. 

Yes, as I am fond of saying re starting horses "You never get a second chance to make a first impression."  This is both the interest (and joy) and the concern (and potential tears) in the proceeding!  

As someone mentioned above, though, the sitting on the horse, even the trotting around a bit, is generally not a massive problem IF people are sensible and calm about it and the horse is well prepared and genuine.  I think one of the problems can be, though, that people THINK this is the important part, when in fact it's teaching the horse how to GO properly that has the biggest effect on its soundness, happiness and, like it or not, marketability.  (I use a similar set up to JG's cavesson although I originally learned it from a western trainer.  Starting horses in sidepulls and moving on to combination bridles before going wholly on the snaffle, to protect the mouth - and the mind - is quite common in that sphere.  I had a brilliant bridle designed specifically for the task but it's long gone - I keep meaning to get myself one made.)

I always joke that good initial training is health insurance for horses! 

Not to get tarred with the same brush, but I quite often now "help" people start their own horses.  We have regular booked sessions but they also know they can all if they have a problem or a question and can leave it for me to sort if need be, even if that just means being there to supervise.  I'm not shy about saying if I think a horse is suitable for this program or not but generally, given time (more than would be spent by a professional) and patience, it can get the job done.  The advantage, too, is that the horse always has someone on the ground who knows it and is experienced.  I did a lot of "cannon fodder" work when I was younger and then have mostly done horses on my own, for lack of good help, but it's not really the person on the horse the first few times who has to be experience, it's the person on the ground.  The REAL gem in JG's video - even given the nice horse - is the fellow doing the "driving".


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## Wheels (19 July 2012)

Lol I think horsesforever has just shown what free advertising on hho is all about...

Maybe that would have been better as a pm chuck!


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## Pale Rider (19 July 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			It always makes me a bit confused (and sad) that these discussions about how to start/train horses are based on an adversarial premiss - "we" are doing it right, "these other people" are doing it wrong.  I just haven't seen that in my travels.  I've seen good and bad horsemen in every sphere, producing lovely horses and damaged ones respectively.  I haven't generally found it matters much which hat they wear, so long as their principles are sensible, empathetic, take into account the horse's long term health and happiness AND recognise that most horses will have to live in the real world with the rest of us and you're not necessarily doing them any favours by making things too "perfect" or adhering too strictly to a relatively uncommon path.

Why does it have to be "Americans are bad, British people are good"?  I don't think because I've met a few people here who seem to assume being British makes them inherently good horsemen (when evidence might suggest otherwise) everyone here feels or acts that way.  Nor do I think because you see people hammering driving horses down paved roads here (something you hardly ever see in North America, perhaps outside of Mennonite/Amish etc areas) means everyone thinks that's desirable behaviour.  Even saying "cowboys did this" isn't wholly accurate as there are certainly respected trainers with huge following from that school of thought who are brilliant horsemen.  

I will say - and this is me being hugely reductionist and judgemental - there do seem to be a lot more defensive people here.  I just never hear Americans (or Germans, or French etc) give much time to saying "Those British people are doing it wrong."  Maybe it's a New World thing - there is simply not "an American" school of thought - but I am curious why successful people steeped in such tradition of horsemanship feel the need to define themselves externally.  What does it matter what other people do if you're doing a good job?  And why does other people doing something differently - and successfully - negate your own efforts?  I agree it's annoying to see people doing something you love and are good at in a "bad" way but that's hardly limited to one school of thought!  People can choose how they progress with their horse - why would we want it to be different?

The "problem" with MR, Parelli et al is the publicity, no?  Monty, to give him his due, does not recommend that people break a horse in a day and consider the job done.  I agree there's a disconnect in actually DOING that for performance purposes but I guess his original purpose was to prove such a thing could be done without violence (even though he's hardly the only person to think that).  Quick "colt starting" is a real tradition in the cowboy world (originally practical, obviously, but now mainly competitive) so I guess his point was you can get that done without tying the horse down etc.  Now, whether you agree or not with the basic idea (I do not, because I do not live in a world where the rewards of it outweigh the risks) is a different story but there is a context for his original point.

Should people who have their own horse seek to emulate that?  No, of course not.  Why?  They are not constrained by time AND they don't have the experience to make the right calls that quickly.  (Yes, experience comes with practice but if you are going to learn to do something you learn to do it right, then you learn to do it quickly.)

Also, as has been said above, horses are individuals.  The guys doing demos do pick and choose appropriate horses.  And they admit this but perhaps not firmly and loudly enough.  

Starting horses in a day is a "trick", really it is.  I guess it comes down to responsibility - is it the responsibility of the showman to explain why the audience cannot/should not do as they do?  On the other hand, as also discussed, if someone goes to a Oli Townend demo or buys a Tim Stockdale DVD do they instantly think it makes them an expert at eventing or showjumping?  

I would have to agree though with RuthM and her suggestion that GOOD professional starting of horses is underrated. Which is not to say that people can't or shouldn't start their own, but why is it assumed it's "easy" or that every horses would be suitable for every novice to learn on.  Learning, by definition, means making mistakes and ANYONE starting a horse does have to at least acknowledge that their mistakes might cost a horse for a life time.  If they accept that, if they are humble and make it about the horse, not themselves, then they will probably be all right or at least will get help when they need it. 

The minute it becomes about ego, about proving you can do it/do it better, when it stops being always about asking the questions, "Does the horse understand?  Is the horse progressing?  Are we both safe?" then there are far more likely to be problems.

It's a trick.  We all need to work in a proven system (novices and professionals alike) but at the same time, the horse has to always be more important than slavish devotion to ANY system.
		
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Excellent post here TarrSteps, as usual.

You are right, a lot of what goes on here does desend into adversarial arguments, which is often a pity as most of the really good stuff gets overlooked.

I have to say, that I was attempting, in my last post not to fall into this trap but, just to say 'we do things a bit different' Whether we are right or wrong wasn't really the issue for me, I'm not trying to convert or subvert anyone.

When you look at some of the colt starting competitions in the States for example, they are often starting horses which have to be tamed before any real starting, or backing in the UK sense takes place. Very few horses in the UK start from the position of having little or no positive contact with humans. Yet, they can be started in a couple of days. Now, whether or not you agree with the 'competition' and for many reasons on a personal note, I don't, the application of technique and level of skill has to be admired, and no one in their right mind would even attempt this without proper training themselves.

I take the view that a horses education starts as a foal, and progresses through its early years to the point where actually getting on its back and transfering all the ground skills it has learned to the saddle, happens as just routine for the horse. I feel that the concept of turning young horses away, is wasting their most valuble learning years. Equally, care must be taken not to make a young horse stale, by constant repetition and drilling the horse. That though is in the skill of the trainer who has a duty to keep things fresh and interesting for the young horse.

Taking on a young horse that has been newly started is in my view a massive responsibility for a horse owner, and for someone taking on a 4 or 5 year old as their first horse is not ideal. The first horse you own should have been there and done it, because whatever you are taught or whoever teaches you, nothing compares with what you learn from a horse. It's unfair on both you and the horse to both be learning at the same time.


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## kimberleigh (19 July 2012)

I had zero idea who JG is (and still don't either, except for getting the impression she may back/break horses for a living!) - to me she is just a name on here; I don't feel any need to go getting into petty arguments on an internet forum or searching someone's name for what they may have/have not posted on or about...I'm not 12 after all!

Come on guys, JG posted a good video as an example of how she backs horses - the horse looks to be happy and relaxed with the methods used (which surely is the most important part of backing a youngster?!), so really is it worth all the 'he said/she said' playground bickering?

For what its worth if I were JG I would happily post a video of my happy, newly backed horse and be accused of advertising (shock horror, the worst possible crime in the world I may add!!), if it was of eductional value to others who may actually learn something from it!!

Kim


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## JanetGeorge (19 July 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			Why does it have to be "Americans are bad, British people are good"?  I don't think because I've met a few people here who seem to assume being British makes them inherently good horsemen (when evidence might suggest otherwise) everyone here feels or acts that way.  Nor do I think because you see people hammering driving horses down paved roads here (something you hardly ever see in North America, perhaps outside of Mennonite/Amish etc areas) means everyone thinks that's desirable behaviour.  Even saying "cowboys did this" isn't wholly accurate as there are certainly respected trainers with huge following from that school of thought who are brilliant horsemen.
		
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That certainly wasn't my line (after all, I'm not British, I'm Australian!)  Thething that gets on my wick is MR and PP coming over here and trying to claim that everyone ELSE (other than them) is wrong.  PP is the worst in this regard and his 'disciples' can be even worse - a good friend of mine was literally driven off the livery yard she'd been at for years when it was taken over by Parelli followers who tried to brainwash her into playing games with her horse!

And I agree TOTALLY that there are good and bad in EVERY 'camp'!  I have NO time for MR or PP because they exploit horses for publicity and profit.  There are NH trainers who I think are 'good' and BHS trainers I wouldn't let NEAR a horse of mine! (And vice versa of course!)


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## tristar (19 July 2012)

my opinion is that the backing and riding away process is a crucial moment in a horses life, that first impression that you go forward properly when asked, can make or spoil a horse, i think  it accounts for many horses that are not properly forward, almost hanging back, which is the worst fault in the early training , yet i've seen horses like this win dressage comps! when i got one like this i could hardly make it move!  i felt like i could'nt be bothered to ride that every day.

the only thing about the video, and this is not meant as critisism, is,  i would like  to see the young lady rider using her legs not so far back,  but nearer the girth.


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## JanetGeorge (19 July 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			I would have to agree though with RuthM and her suggestion that GOOD professional starting of horses is underrated. Which is not to say that people can't or shouldn't start their own, but why is it assumed it's "easy" or that every horses would be suitable for every novice to learn on.  Learning, by definition, means making mistakes and ANYONE starting a horse does have to at least acknowledge that their mistakes might cost a horse for a life time.
		
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Have separated these two quotes as they are very different subjects (and an excellent, thoughtful post TarrSteps!)

I have often considered writing "The Dummy's Guide to Horse Starting" - after all, backing a horse is NOT rocket science and any reasonably competent, confident rider working to a sensible 'guide' could back 9 out of 10 horses successfully - or even 19 out of 20 if they were lucky!  The problem arises with that ONE horse for whom a standard programme just doesn't work.  There ARE professional trainers out there - who have good reputations and do a good job with 9/10 or 19/20 - but make a pig's dinner of that ONE (either wrecking it totally - or sending it home as 'unbreakable'!

But the existence of that one horse stops me doing it - because I just couldn't write a guide to recognising that ONE horse early on - or deciding which extra tools have to be pulled out of the tool box to enable you to deal with it.  And if you get it wrong, the horse is wrecked - or you are dead or in a wheelchair - or both!! That's TOO big a responsibility!

As I mentioned in an earlier post - until last year I had NEVER considered sending a horse home as 'unbreakable' - but last year I had TWO where I came very close to it!  They were both very different, with different problems (although both had physical issues that had to be sorted first!)  Both horses were potentially dangerous and I spent literally hours discussing the options with my two senior riders (and between us we have probably backed more than 2,000 horses)  And there was no easy answer - it was trial and error!  And that's the risk of 'The Dummy's Guide' - and why I'll probably never write it!





			I did a lot of "cannon fodder" work when I was younger and then have mostly done horses on my own, for lack of good help, but it's not really the person on the horse the first few times who has to be experience, it's the person on the ground. The REAL gem in JG's video - even given the nice horse - is the fellow doing the "driving".
		
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VERY true!!  The lass on the mare is a novice at backing horses - she is learning and this is about her 4th horse with me.  Phil is the senior partner - and he is on the mare now getting her hacking out.  I am fortunate to have two VERY capable and experienced 'lads' (Phil and John - although John is well past being a 'lad') and each of them works with one of the girls who are learning the ropes.  The two girls trust John and Phil NOT to put them at risk - and KNOW they still have an enormous amount to learn before they could take the senior role.  I wish like hell I'd had a job like theirs when i was just starting - I learnt the hard way!


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## Pearlsasinger (19 July 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			That certainly wasn't my line (after all, I'm not British, I'm Australian!)  Thething that gets on my wick is MR and PP coming over here and trying to claim that everyone ELSE (other than them) is wrong.  PP is the worst in this regard and his 'disciples' can be even worse - ............................................................................................... I have NO time for MR or PP because they exploit horses for publicity and profit.  There are NH trainers who I think are 'good' and BHS trainers I wouldn't let NEAR a horse of mine! (And vice versa of course!)
		
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I commented on the fact that MR and PP are American, for the very reason that JG cites here.  THEY are the ones who describe 'traditional methods of horse-breaking' as being to the detriment of the horse.  This leads me (and many others) to assume that they must be talking about the traditional American methods that are linked to rodeos etc, as traditional British methods, when they are done properly, enable the rider to work in partnership with the horse, rather than dominating it.
I appreciate that not all British horses are broken sympathetically and would not support these 'breakers' any more than I support PP and MR.  However I do not know of any such British 'breaker' who publicises their work in the way that these 2 'cowboys' (and I use that word advisedly with all its connotations) do.


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## TarrSteps (19 July 2012)

But they are just two people and nothing to you, are they? To be fair to Monty I haven't really got that vibe - he thinks his methods are BEST, but then surely that's true of all of us, otherwise why would we be using the methods we do?

I've done horses in quite a few systems now, both as a rider and on the ground, and generally found, done well, you get decent results from them all, given the usual qualifiers.

Two things that have been my experience though. . .one, systems are systems for a reason and are not as 'mix and match' as some people think. You can learn valuable things from studying different approaches, and there is a lot of overlap, but to some extent they have to be seen as whole cloth.

Two, different systems often work more directly towards specific ends, looking at the big picture. Knowing what the horse's eventual job is likely to be can make certain approaches more suitable than others because, as we've observed, the first time you pick up the rein or affect the way of going,.you are starting to teach the horse what people will want from it. Of course you can start one way then backtrack - it's better to use a good trainer from a different discipline than a bad one from your own - but I think it's an advantage if the person doing the initial riding had knowledge of the end goal. 

One exception might be particularly difficult horses, although again, in that case you're just looking for a specialist!


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## TarrSteps (19 July 2012)

There are lots of people that are based in/come to the UK promoting similar systems and/or taking horses for training - Michael Peace, Jason Webb, Clinton Anderson (when I see him work perhaps my least favourite of the bunch), Mark Rashid, Buck Brannaman and many others who operate in the US and Canada - John Lyons for instance - but don't figure prominently here. There are also French and German 'alternatives' starting to publish in English. 

Parelli has tried a couple of times now to ally himself with prominent trainers in other disciplines to make 'better' event and dressage horses, for instance. This has not been an unqualified success.   Same with Monty addressing the Global Dressage Forum - the methods have limited application in other spheres. 

Which is my long winded way of saying there is a lot more to it. There are things JG's people are doing in that vid which would be frowned upon in a BHS test. What does that mean? Who is 'wrong'?


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## TarrSteps (19 July 2012)

Btw, how come people who don't believe MR and PP's methods are right believe them when they say the other people in 'America' are doing it wrong?


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## Tinypony (19 July 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			There are lots of people that are based in/come to the UK promoting similar systems and/or taking horses for training - Michael Peace, Jason Webb, Clinton Anderson (when I see him work perhaps my least favourite of the bunch), Mark Rashid, Buck Brannaman and many others who operate in the US and Canada - John Lyons for instance - but don't figure prominently here. There are also French and German 'alternatives' starting to publish in English. 

Parelli has tried a couple of times now to ally himself with prominent trainers in other disciplines to make 'better' event and dressage horses, for instance. This has not been an unqualified success.   Same with Monty addressing the Global Dressage Forum - the methods have limited application in other spheres. 

Which is my long winded way of saying there is a lot more to it. There are things JG's people are doing in that vid which would be frowned upon in a BHS test. What does that mean? Who is 'wrong'?
		
Click to expand...

Blimey, I thinkthe people you've listed there would be horrified to be thought to be using similar systems to Monty.


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## TarrSteps (19 July 2012)

Really? Compared to the 'traditional' British system? All those mentioned use round pen work, disengaging the hind quarters and other common 'western' practices. 

My only point was that people are taking a tiny sample and extrapolating out from it, which isn't fair. I am not Monty's greatest fan, frankly, but even I would have to admit many people have had success with their horses using his methods and I've started horses similarly when the situation and facilities suggest it's the best choice. 

Even Pat has brought interesting things to the party. Many of the ' Games' are quite standard ground work practices.

I am cautious of extremes. Anyone who takes a good idea and turns it into a religion is suspect in my book and anyone who only ever considers one point of view is missing out and, perhaps subconsciously, being judgemental by saying other views have no possible value. 

I hate that horsemen fight! And, generally, the more experienced and talented people are,.the more interested they are in what other people are up to. But schools of riding have always verged on religion - usually with a strong nationalistic bent - so plus sa change, plus sa meme chose,.I guess.


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## JanetGeorge (19 July 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			There are things JG's people are doing in that vid which would be frowned upon in a BHS test. What does that mean? Who is 'wrong'?
		
Click to expand...

Thankfully, the BHS doesn't examine on backing horses! 

I have history with the BHS - and I support it.  I came to England originally to do BHS exams - and then ended up working for the BHS for 3 years - initially as Head of Public Affairs and then as Acting CE for 8 months.  But only one of my staff is BHS qualified - and I wouldn't let her NEAR a breaker. 

The BHS 'rules' are a great starting point - teach people to do things safely when they aren't experienced enough to make their own judgements.  But a lot of them don't work with breakers - in particular, things like standing still when lunging: it used to be a fail if you walked around when lunging.  But with breakers you HAVE to - you need to keep them going forward with your body position - and have them on a short line for control - but a large circle to save their joints when they're unbalanced.


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## TarrSteps (19 July 2012)

That's kind of my point.  It was a running joke that even though I taught people for the equivalent exams I'd most likely fail now as do all sorts of "wrong" things without thinking and because it works better that way. 

It just goes back to the idea that it depends on whose standards you are using.  I'm amused by most of the books on starting horses I've ever read because most start with a premiss - "first you get your round pen/two helpers/stock saddle/experieced lead horse/off road hacking" and offer no alternative ideas if you don't have whatever they consider essential.  Again, I agree a system is a system and you can't just leave bits out but it does prove that there are many ways to skin a cat or most horses in the world would never get started!  

I'd say what bothers me most about some of the "showmen" is they shy away from discussing the most important piece of equipment, especially if the horse is not straightforward - the people! I've seen videos of you and the fellow who works for you, JG, and a big part of why you are so successful is you're good horsemen and know what you're up to.  Say what you will about people like Monty and how they use their skills, they are vastly experienced and know a lot about horses, much of it they don't even know they know anymore.  For them to say "do as I do and you'll get the me results" is disingenuous at best and potentially dangerous at worst.  No one thinks they are going to like Mark Todd from a few videos or clinics . . .

Which is not to say that inexperienced people should not start horses but surely there has to be some recognition that it's something people have to learn, that they will make mistakes doing it (in the same way that almost everyone has diminished horses in their ridden work through inexperience), that not every horse is a suitable starter model and that not every rider has the necessary time, patience and skill to do a good job.


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## lizstuguinness (20 July 2012)

BHS doesnt work for anything above riding school. I struggled like mad with one of my top horses I simply couldnt stop him or keep his attention. Had some training with Rob Hoekstra who promptly told me to forget everything id ever been told about riding. had my lunging with eyes closed, and riding eyes closed too - that took some confidence but teaches you alot. Thank God. Riding is now so much simpler and more intuitave. 
I think its the same with the rest of the NH brigade, frankyl ive never understood the "games" why poke and wave a stick at your horse? just spent time with it getting it to trust you? surely its that simple? well its worked for all of the 30 odd horses that ive bred, broken and competed. hardly rocket science.


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## Caol Ila (20 July 2012)

There is something to be said for presenting horse training as more of  concrete system.  Not for the horses, but for the people working with them.   Here is an anecdote which illustrates what I mean.

When I was 13, I got my first horse, a 10-year old appendix QH named Angie.  I wasn't completely green -- I'd been in regular riding lessons since I was 7, had done care-for-a-pony day camps, that sort of thing.  Nevertheless, it didn't take long before both Angie and I realised how little I knew and within a few months of buying her, I was faced with all sorts of behaviour problems.  As a teenager in love with horses, I of course spent loads of time with her trying to get her to "trust" me.  It just didn't bloody well work!  Horse had my number.  Same old story.  Only this was in the days before internet forums, so I couldn't come online and moan about it.  

Anyway, there was a boarder (American for livery) at my barn who was doing a certification in a horse training method called TTEAM.  It was all the rage in the 90s but seems to have gone out of fashion.  She took me under her wing and using these methods, turned around my rapidly deteriorating relationship with this horse.  The methods might look "gimmicky" to the outside observer.  You have a 4' dressage whip called a "wand" that you use to signal and direct the horse, and touching it on various parts of its body is a cue for different things (you never smack it with the wand; it should never be seen in that way by you or the horse.  If a smack is warranted, use something else).  You have a "TTEAM lead," which is essentially a stud chain, but wrapped around the noseband of the headcollar so it does not apply direct, painful pressure to the horse in the way they're traditionally used.   Could you use any other halter?  Sure, but something about having these "TTEAM" things gave the whole process more focus.  Most of the exercises involved using the wand to get the horse to yield different parts of its body and leading the horse through various obstacles: around barrels, over various configurations of poles on the ground, and practicing different ways of leading such as leading close to the horse's head, leading at the end of the lead, and so on.  The exercises all had silly names (which I can't remember).  There was also a "touch" component, wherein you learned various "TTOUCH"s which essentially played off the horse's accupressure points and helped them feel good and relaxed (I still use some of these to this day; they do work!).  

The point of this rambling narrative is that as kid, I "got" this method because it was straightforward and concrete. A clearly laid out series of exercises, all with a specific, carefully laid-out goal, is something even a ditzy teenager can get a handle on.  You have your special tools that make you feel more purposeful, which of course makes you seem like more of a "leader" to your horse.  It enabled me to communicate with my horse and provided a fantastic foundation for understanding how horses think.  As a fairly clueless teenager, I would have struggled with the more abstract writings of guys like Mark Rashid and would have been in real trouble if someone told me working with my horse was "common sense" and "intuitive."  For me at the time and for thousands of other novice horse owners, it's not!  

Should people rely on the tools and exercises as a crutch? Should they close their mind to other things because they have the "one right way."   Of course not.  They should absolutely expand their horizons and learn about all sorts of methods and philosophies and most importantly, listen to what the horse itself has to teach.  But methods like TTEAM, or even Parelli's seven games (which I don't like very much, but hey ho) can offer a concrete basis for a lifetime's education.  You can't do calculus until you can add.


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## TarrSteps (20 July 2012)

Excellent example and explanation, CI.

One note re the TTEAM stuff, a lot of the routines Linda promoted are standard physio/rehabilitation/proprioceptive exercises and, as you say, combined with "body work".  All before it was common for every horse to have regular massage, chiro etc.  I suspect at least some of the time there was a multipronged approach going on rather than it being a straight training exercise.

In fact, that's true of quite a lot of "ground work".  Teaching a horse to move its body in proscribed directed ways is physical therapy as well as training and can provide the horse with "ah ha" moments about what people want from it and how to comply.  Good riding should be yoga for horses, too.  Which is another reason trainers have to follow "rules" - because if a horse is allowed to learn to move or behave in "incorrect" ways there can be repercussions way down the line.  One of the things experience teaches is that it's not okay to let horses be crooked or rushed or tense because undoing the problem later is a heck of a lot more work.  For inexperienced trainers it's easier to follow a system - the horse must do these exercises in these forms - than to continually assess quite subtle cues about how the horse is breathing, loading its legs etc.  That will come later - and is one of those things I mentioned that experienced good trainers monitor without thinking - but at the beginning it might very well be best for people to simpy accept that for instance, a horse has to learn to move its hindquarters by stepping both in front and behind the stationary leg, or that it has to learn to do everything in both directions.  Many first time trainers figure that sort of thing is just nitpicking and find out only down the line why it isn't.  One benefit of the more codified systems is they make people pay attention to that stuff "just because" until they see why it's important.


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## JanetGeorge (20 July 2012)

One point about backing that I have become increasingly aware of is that too many horses are not 'fit' to be backed - and the owners are not aware of it!  Just because a horse is a youngster and has never been ridden does NOT mean that it is sound and fit to work.

On top of the two real problem horses we had last year, we have had THREE this year already that were not fit to be backed.  Two were sent home within a week, one with the recommendation that he be taken to a good veterinary hospital for diagnosics.  He has been seen by Chris Colles and diagnosed as an old cervical injury - probably suffered as a foal.  The other was a rescue job which was just far too immature, with its backside a hand higher than its wither and the back sagging between the two (owner was advised to do lots of walking in hand up and down hill once it levelled up - and to wait until it was at least 4 before considering backing.)  Another we started with although we were unhappy with its way of moving - got to walk and trot under the rider and it was clear it wasn't coping - this one also looks like a long-standing neck injury that has left it weak and un-co-ordinated behind.  So it's going home to be taken for diagnostics.

Watching novices (and some professionals too!!) handle foals makes me cringe!!!!  Headcollars on and USED too young, foals fighting and pulling back - sometimes falling, people forcing foals to move by pulling their tails over their backs - and worse.  I am convinced that rough, careless or ignorant foal handling is responsible for MANY unseen injuries that lead to problems later on.  We NEVER lead a foal off a headcollar until it is around 3-4 months old: they wear them, but they also have a lead rope around the neck and a bum rope so there is no need to pull on their heads which encourages foals to pull back and go down - or over!  (The rule at my stud is that if a youngster goes over on the yard, you'd damn well better be under it - cushioning its fall! )


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## TarrSteps (20 July 2012)

^ Absolutely.

I always find it interesting that once horses reach riding age people almost always claim injuries happen in the field and yet many people assume unbacked horses could not possibly have sustained an injury. . .clearly the truth is in the middle somewhere.

Related to that the idea that any problems that crop up early *must* be behavioural or, at most be related to teeth or saddle fit (lets not even start on the subject of saddle fitting and unbacked horses).

This is another thing people learn by experience - if the horse doesn't look or behave 'normally' (within quite a large range) then it is not coping and needs further investigation.

 The same with when a horse is ready to back. I, personally, like to see young horses out with their peers on varied footing, developing physically and mentally, even if it means they don't get much handling. My PERSONAL experience is more long term problems result from keeping young horses like hot house flowers and substituting human work for horse play. I haven't even found it makes much difference to the backing process, so long as what handling the horse had had has been sensible and positive. 

I find many people keep baby horses like grown ups under the excuse that it teaches then what they need to know, meaning the ways of man. But especially if we are going to ask our horses to push their mental and physical limits later on, what they really need to learn to be is strong, agile and physically brave. They also benefit from learning how to live in a herd and speak good Horse.

Again though, to each their own. But I do think people who are starting horses have to give some thought to the whole horse, even if that's not the most convenient path. (Btw, I'd also say leaving horses too long to back isn't doing them any favours either. I've certainly seen late backed horses succeed but it tends to be a tougher process.)


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## Equilibrium Ireland (20 July 2012)

Agree with watching people and foals. Cringeworthy. I put headcollars on and then off for turnout and vice versa coming in. It's not my intention to teach them to wear the headcollar. However, I do lead them before 3 or 4 months. You can be capable of doing so without risking injury. Mine need their feet done in that span of time and need to know about some pressure. To each his own but if I can break horses I should be capable of leading/teaching without doing damage. I also use slip through ropes on babies and not snaps.

And please stop generalising about how people break horses in America. As if all of America has only horseman capable of bucking one out to get them broke. Those NH guys sure have done a good job of portraying it that a way. Wrong.

Terri


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## RuthM (20 July 2012)

Another one agreeing with poor foal handling! I worked on a large set-up that saw a years crop of foals born, weaned and then turned out for years until ready to break. When they came in they weren't that well handled but were fresh and unspoiled, they did get moved and some handling between so weren't wild but not 'handled' as in people attempting to do more than hat was needed for health/welfare. They were fairly simple to break. 

The other thing I think effects fitness at 3/4yrs is the lack of selection of brood mares. We would see between 100 and 200 come in each year to be covered (just before AI really took off, 3 coverings a day etc!). While stallions still seemed to be a rarity in the circles I worked in and very selected, mares - half the youngstock's genes, were not. Sentimentality might have it's place but it's place isn't in breeding, just because someone adores their lovely mare that failed to stay sound till she was 8 doesn't mean the reasons she did not stay sound are any less genetic. Also people are often poor judges of their own horses, ie, see them as more 'special' than they are. That's not a disrespectful comment because I think the favouring is just human nature, I do it too! Seeing swathes of mares pass through almost none were of the standard of the stallions and some were sent home as unethical to breed from. 

But, as I alluded to earlier, if there isn't cash in the cure it doesn't get cured. If how to solve a problem (in this case - trauma to horses during breaking) isn't profitable, salable, merchandisable, then it gets left. Alot of what works is as dull as dishwater but still correct and functional.


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## cornbrodolly (20 July 2012)

It will probably annoy many on this forum , but I would say the words of wisdom are coming from those who have backed many horses over many years. Its no use saying 'x' method did a great job of mine , or that I backed one horse using a method therefore its great. I know horse magazines are constantly requested for acticles on how to back your own horse - some will get away with doing their own - depending on the horse s personality and the owners common sense. But really to back a horse you need the experience of having observed then worked with dozens of horses.
 What DOESNT work - this is my opinion -
backing too quickly for unstanding and comprehension to take place - should never be less than 3 weeks minimum imho.
backing with fear and force
punishment ,roughness,shouting,'give it a pasting'
trying to tire a horse out to make it comply
humiliating the horse/ tie down with every rope and gadget
endless lunging/ boring it to death
using a whip to intimidate
inexperienced handlers that think love is enough
horse too young or unfit or physically unready for work

Horses treated to any of the above will soon become a problem , and as any restart expert will tell you , to erase a bad backing is SOOO difficult.[ Our most difficult restart was 9 weeks.]

OH backed horses for nearly 40 years - but we have stopped- [ so no I m not advertising - and JG probably wasnt either ]- because good horse people are always full of horses to back or reback - word of mouth is all you need , when you re doing the job properly.!
 I helped back youngsters with an event rider many years ago, and obviously have helped OH. Until 1999 all our work was BHS , and can say it was done well, with every thought to the horse, no force,fear, gadgets. However, coming across N H led to even better backing - not a shorter lengths of time , but getting better results.
 Like Pale Rider [ whom I think I know and have met - did you Dales ponies at one point?] we dont use voice commands . One reason would be illustrated by the gypsy cob we have; he was a driving horse for many years, but now only ridden. 'Whoa' 'Stand' etc were great for the first few months , but as we werent used to making voice commands , we often forgot. And guess what - within a few months he forgot them too! he s agood lad , so now we just laugh when he wont 'Whoa' on command!


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## tristar (20 July 2012)

tteam linda tellington-jones was slightly different in some respects to recent 'natural horsemanship' exponents,?    she semed to look indepth at why the horse did what  it did even down to anylising, (can't spell sorry,) personality through markings, and the relation of conformation  and a  horses ability in certain disciplines, and she was accepted and worked with some very high level competition horses.


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## Caol Ila (20 July 2012)

DIY backing has gained a lot of popularity.  I remember more people using professional trainers to do it even as recently as fifteen years ago in the US.  The trouble seems to be that there is a lack of education into how horses think and as a result, I see loads of confused and "misbehaving" youngsters.  Horses acquire unwanted behaviours as easily as desired ones.  A horse who has learned the wrong behaviours is labeled as "disrespectful" while one who has learned the right behaviours is labeled as having "good manners."  But ALL of their interactions with humans are learned behaviours.  That's where the horseman needs to be aware of everything he or she does, and the underlying principles supporting it, or risk inadvertantly teaching the horse the incorrect thing.  You can sentence a horse to a lifetime of people shouting at it if you're not careful.

Linda Tellington-Jones is generally not considered to be in the "NH camp."  The similarity lies in the fact that both she and Rashid, Brannaman, Chris Cox, et al are interested in and insightful about horse psychology and behaviour.  I used her work as an example above because it was the first thing I learned when I got beyond the riding school stage, and the manner in which the exercises are presented as concrete ideas with a specific goal was exactly the kind of schooling I needed.  It takes more education before the developing horseman grasps the "whole," and systems like TTEAM are one way of educating.  

I also think her work on conformation is fantastic and should be more available.  If you know something about that, it can have a positive effect on how you ride a particular horse to its strengths.


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## Cortez (20 July 2012)

I think that ANY system (that is not abusive, obvs) is better than none. I don't find the BHS way particularly insightful or effective, but at least it is a structure for otherwise uninformed people to start with. The best way to learn to break is to shadow an experienced, reputable person (the way I learned, millions of years ago). Also, NO SYSTEM works 100% of the time on 100% of horses. And every system (bar the abusive ones, as above) has something of interest to the non-closed minded, the trouble is with people who don't know enough to be able to sift out the nonsense.


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## TarrSteps (20 July 2012)

^ That's it in a nutshell. 

I do think the proliferation of diy backing (and systems that are promoted as making that possible) had its roots in economic and social factors as well.

As more people come in to horses late in life and without a rural background, there has been a proliferation of people whose theory outstrips their practical experience. The internet and video has contributed to this, of course, and more people think they know what to do because they've seen it done when in fact watching a video and shadowing a good trainer are very different experiences.

Combined with the huge increase in the availability of custom bred horses targeted for sport, and you have a lot more people with high aspirations but perhaps fewer resources, both financial and in terms of a support system. So people see getting a well bred young horse and doing the work themselves as an easy and cheap way to end up with a super competition horse. 

So there is a ready market for people who tell them what they want to hear


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## JanetGeorge (20 July 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			DIY backing has gained a lot of popularity.  I remember more people using professional trainers to do it even as recently as fifteen years ago in the US.  The trouble seems to be that there is a lack of education into how horses think and as a result, I see loads of confused and "misbehaving" youngsters.  Horses acquire unwanted behaviours as easily as desired ones.  A horse who has learned the wrong behaviours is labeled as "disrespectful" while one who has learned the right behaviours is labeled as having "good manners."  But ALL of their interactions with humans are learned behaviours.
		
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right! Whether the increase in D.I.Y. backing is due to a general increase in D.I.Y. everything - or whether it's economics - or whether it is because it is FAR from uncommon to get horror stories about _professional_ trainers, I don't know.

But I think a competent amateur who CARES about their horse and gets advice can often do a better job than a cr*p professional.

We had one classic - I think it might have been owned by an HHO member    She sent it to a trainer who sent it back - fairly quickly  - as 'unbreakable' and 'dangerous'.  His claim that the horse was unbreakable was based on the fact it bucked him off - and the dangerous bit was because the horse kicked him as he was wafting earthwards!!  Of course it bucked because it hadn't been properly prepared for the rider getting on - and it tried to kick him because - in the horse's hind - he was a predator!  Having dislodged the predator he was NOT going to let it come back and attack his underbelly!  Smart horse, dumb trainer!

Another client was going to send a horse to us and had 2nd thoughts because we were so far away (over 100 miles.)  So she went to see a local (big!) yard that had a good reputation as far as she could tell.  While looking around, she found about 6 horses standing in their stables in bridles, rollers and TIGHT side reins!  She enquired what this was about and was told: "Oh, they're being mouthed."  She sent her horse 100 miles!


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## siennamum (20 July 2012)

I just saw a video on facebook this afternoon, of a horse being backed by a 'professional'. It was horrible to watch, a lot of arrogance & a lack of real knowledge or understanding.
My son has had a lovely horse to 'break' since before Christmas. My son is 16, and has a nice way with horses and a real desire to learn. I have supervised and given him specific steps, or tasks along the way and he has done a lovely job and now has a really great bond with the horse.

Its taken a longer  time as we have no arena and ground has been too wet to do any work anywhere but on our concrete yard and on the lanes, also horse is a funny shape so we have spent months trying to find suitable saddle. Horse is extremely powerful and reactive and I have had my sons safety at the front of mind at every step, we've done everything twice and gone back over anything which elicited any anxiety (especially when you are backing on concrete).

I'll put a video up at some point, horse is just being ridden away really and is going round the lanes to fitten and strengthen him. Its taken 6 months of just pootling at weekends and fitting horse around exams, to get here from a horse which leaped to the back of the stable (in a normal baby way) if you patted him. 

Son has enjoyed the theory behind why he has done specific things, and that's something which an amateur in particular has the liberty to do.

Everything was done in a very traditional 'English' way, the way I was taught 40 years ago at a dealers yard in the Midlands when I was used as crash test dummy. I think many NH people would be suprised about how much of that is the same in all but name to what is done by NH practitioners today. I also rode ponies for Jo Knowles and she always had a coupling from noseband to bit for the reins when backing.


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## tristar (20 July 2012)

i think siennamom makes a very important point about the bond that is formed between horse and backer, i find its an instinctive thing to know the right moment to back and comes from the connection made during preparation

i would never back a horse under six weeks prep, why rush it, you are not on time clock.

its not s new thing people buying a horse and breaking it with no experience, a well known saddler commented to me on that subject 30 years ago


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## tristar (20 July 2012)

sorry, siennamum not mom!


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## siennamum (20 July 2012)

Actually, also the trust between the horse and the person on the ground. Although son has had the main role, I have been the one holding the front end and shovelling nuts in on occcasion. Horse consequently will 'bulge' towards me and listen to me, which has been funny on occasion.

One thing we have done a lot of because we haven't an arena is riding and leading. My young gelding has been relegated to the role of sensible schoolmaster, which he is rather put out about.


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## tristar (20 July 2012)

as i prepare and back myself, that's what i was meaning, always the person on the ground is in charge and provides the continuity and security for the horse, during the preparation and  i never back until the horse 'tells me he is ready' i would never have a leader or holder, that would indicate to me the horse is not ready on some level, to be honest i would feel that shows lack of confidence or prep, i only back when the horse is ready to be ridden away on his own, under his own steam and i expect it to go uneventfully because the horse is fully ready.


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## siennamum (20 July 2012)

That demonstrates there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I always have a holder whether it's me backing or someone else up. I think the risk of the horse being startled is too great if they do suddenly do something unpredictable, see you out of the corner of their eye or whetever - however much you have prepared them. Its at that point when the holder can prevent the horse scaring itself more and disastrously decanting rider. I personally like bribery, think eating is also calming. I may of course just be an old worry wort.
i also do lots of walking with rider leaning over, which is hard without someone leading.


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## tristar (21 July 2012)

'if they do something unpredictable' that's it, i first accustom the horse to something higher than itself by standing on a dustbin near the saddle area, then if no response put my arms over the back and pat gently, after a few days of this i start to lean on the horse and eventually put my full weight completely on the horse by leaning over the back, but if there is any reaction i retreat to the previous level, then i sit on the horse without a saddle, all this is done in a stable for calmness and security.

the first ride outside i do with the saddle on, sitting on the horse properly, i feel this is this best position to be in should they do something unpredictable, so i can respond in balance to any unbalanced movements and counteract them, which if the horse moves on when asked should'nt really happen, then harness the forward movement and occupy their mind, lots of praise, all done in an large enclosed area.


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## Caol Ila (22 July 2012)

I don't have any issues with DIY backing.  Only with people who think it's ust like training a dog, or who think they/horse/kid can "learn together."  I've done it and will do it again.  When I did it, I looked at a bunch of babies.  Lead them around, briefly free-lunged them in a round pen.  I chose one who was curious, basically calm, and not at all bothered that he'd been removed from his herd and had to hang out with us humans for twenty minutes or so.  I thought a horse like that would be the easiest to start.  And he was.  He was a lovely fellow to get going.  I think some horses, ones who are sharp or more fearful of new things, are best when started by someone who has started lots of horses, but others are perfectly suited to first-time starters.  This is an important distinction.  

There does seem to be a thing going round about professional yards.  I was speaking to a fellow livery the other day, who has started her own four year old.  She was going on to me about how she would never ever send the horse to a professional because they "abuse" them at professional yards.  I kind of nodded and smiled, as didn't want to get into a debate over it (in this same conversation, she said I ride in a "western" style, which was news to me as I thought I was doing dressage ).

When I started Dante (my three year old), I'd gotten him accustomed to weird things happening around him generally and also things over his head.  He was wearing a saddle, bridle, and long lining.  I had also led him around while a friend balanced one of those huge exercise balls on the saddle.  As stated above, he was not a spooky guy so he was totally unfazed.  After the exercise ball, I figured he was ready to go.  When I did get on him, I had  friend lead him.  Just for the first few minutes.  As it was going well, she turned us loose and we had a wee walk and trot around the arena.


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## siennamum (22 July 2012)

tristar said:



			'if they do something unpredictable' that's it, i first accustom the horse to something higher than itself by standing on a dustbin near the saddle area, then if no response put my arms over the back and pat gently, after a few days of this i start to lean on the horse and eventually put my full weight completely on the horse by leaning over the back, but if there is any reaction i retreat to the previous level, then i sit on the horse without a saddle, all this is done in a stable for calmness and security.

the first ride outside i do with the saddle on, sitting on the horse properly, i feel this is this best position to be in should they do something unpredictable, so i can respond in balance to any unbalanced movements and counteract them, which if the horse moves on when asked should'nt really happen, then harness the forward movement and occupy their mind, lots of praise, all done in an large enclosed area.
		
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We always do all of the above. BUT I have known horses who have a moment where they are unnerved by the rider either when they first move and feel the weight shift or when the rider accidentally touches them on the bum or similar, or when they see the rider behind and above them, how ever much you have stood on the mounting block and patted their bum, neck, shoulder etc. Someone on the ground and a calming pat can make a big difference I think. It's just risk management.

I think the other issue is if the youngster moves when you are about the mount for the first time, I think you are vulnerable, you risk them learning that they can move away from the block and I want to avoid them learning the wrong thing.


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## tristar (23 July 2012)

i once saw a horse being led with someone on for the first time, and it exploded 6 feet in the air the rider came off, the leader was helpless in stopping it.


that's  why you need to be sure before you get on board, and it helps if the trainer on the ground is the same person that backs the horse, the connection is in place, the relationship is of confidence, the horse trusts the backer and this for me is the key to successful backing.

i think people who are over cautious or inexperienced sometimes provoke an incident by expectation of something going wrong.  


year ago they used dumb jockey's fixed to a roller, or sacks of filled with something tied on both sides before backing


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## TarrSteps (23 July 2012)

siennamum said:



			We always do all of the above. BUT I have known horses who have a moment where they are unnerved by the rider either when they first move and feel the weight shift or when the rider accidentally touches them on the bum or similar, or when they see the rider behind and above them, how ever much you have stood on the mounting block and patted their bum, neck, shoulder etc. Someone on the ground and a calming pat can make a big difference I think. It's just risk management.

I think the other issue is if the youngster moves when you are about the mount for the first time, I think you are vulnerable, you risk them learning that they can move away from the block and I want to avoid them learning the wrong thing.
		
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I would agree with all of that and it's definitely my preference.  I can sort of see the other side though as many times I've been starting horses without someone good to be on the ground and then I'd rather have no help than bad help!  I've had a few really bad moments when someone trying to help does exactly the wrong thing!  Of course it goes the other way - I was being a ground man for someone last year - someone I didn't know well but who had started lots of horses for racing so knew what she was about - and for some unknown reason when the horse stalled a bit instead of clicking or letting me get it moving again she reached back and walloped it!!!  I guess she forgot what she was sitting on.   The horse jumped on top of me, bucked her off and took weeks to be okay again!  

I would also agree with CI though, having the right horse is essential.  Some are very easy, most are easy enough if you use some skill and sense, some are very tricky and need careful handling.  I think the problem might be though, that people who don't have the skills for a tricky one might not be able to tell (or maybe admit) they've got a tricky one.

Re pro yards, yes I've heard the same thing.  Weird.  That's like saying you would fix your own car better than a trained mechanic, no matter what the problem.  I would say I think pros who DON'T specialise in starting horses are perhaps a worse bet than a good, patient amateur though, as they often see it as an easy, quick way to make money and just because someone jumps a lot of big fences, that doesn't necessarily give them the skills to start horses well.  Apples and oranges.  I broke a few for a trainer who had sent horses to the Olympics and she had some VERY odd ideas about how baby horses behaved!


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## TarrSteps (23 July 2012)

tristar said:



			year ago they used dumb jockey's fixed to a roller, or sacks of filled with something tied on both sides before backing
		
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Lots of people still do that.  I've done it myself, at least with stuffed legs, for horses that worried about trotting with something on them - it's not usually walking that causes problems!

I know what you mean about the person on the ground not really being able to avert disaster but I think it does give a horse that's used to being lead some consistency and reassurance.  When I do horses by myself I'm very sure they stop and steer with me leaning over them before I commit!


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## Holly Hocks (23 July 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			Lots of people still do that.  I've done it myself, at least with stuffed legs, for horses that worried about trotting with something on them - it's not usually walking that causes problems!
		
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Years ago when I used to help out backing horses (when I was younger, lighter and had no concept of danger!) the trainer used to tie filled haynets to the roller rings of the more sensitive horses and lunge with those on.  It seemed to work well.


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## tristar (24 July 2012)

i do find that teaching a youngster to lead really well on the ground  before starting to lunge is the half the battle.

also i lead youngsters out inhand, on tracks and the road, during the breaking process, the first few outings are pretty hairy, however, they rapidly gain great confidence and start to enjoy exploring, i like to do this  because i want to ride them out on their own, when ready and not follow another horse, they have to face the world, my current stallion was ridden out 2 weeks after backing, on his own, he went past all the scary bits, if he had not faced up to it boldly he would have been gelded.


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## RuthM (24 July 2012)

...he went past all the scary bits, if he had not faced up to it boldly he would have been gelded.
		
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Now THAT'S what I call incentive!


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## Caol Ila (24 July 2012)

tristar said:



			i do find that teaching a youngster to lead really well on the ground  before starting to lunge is the half the battle.

also i lead youngsters out inhand, on tracks and the road, during the breaking process, the first few outings are pretty hairy, however, they rapidly gain great confidence and start to enjoy exploring, i like to do this  because i want to ride them out on their own, when ready and not follow another horse, they have to face the world, my current stallion was ridden out 2 weeks after backing, on his own, he went past all the scary bits, if he had not faced up to it boldly he would have been gelded.
		
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Yes, me too.  My guy never batted an eye whether or not he was out by himself or in company.  He was a brave soul.  

I must confess, though, I chickened out of cantering him on the trail for the first time.  I recruited a brave and willing friend to do it; she used to trick-ride, a mad American thing where you hang off the front/back/sides of the horse while it pelts along at a full gallop.  I led the canter on my older horse and she and Dante cruised along behind us.  He did one little buck, but was otherwise fantastic.


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## tristar (24 July 2012)

agree about the cantering bit!  but don't bother about cantering for some time, i find the first canter is obviously somewhat unbalanced and as you are going from a stable two time movement to a three  its easier for them to buck or  even shoot forward a little from the new sensation, this is where a good  balanced rider going with the horse and not bearing down on the back helps i find.

i usually ask for the first canter when going slightly uphill, and ask when the horse is going forward so it falls into the canter itself from it's own momentum, to minimise the disturbance to the overall balance, so it happens naturally.


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## milesjess (24 July 2012)

I haven't read all the replies but did watch some videos. 

OP I really like your methods and how you handle/ back your horses  

If I was looking or do look to re-buy in the future I'd certainly look your way. If only all sellers were like you!


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