# Dead Foals in South Wales, now over 24 dumped!



## Vanah.Horses (12 July 2012)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=414059601979726&set=a.172431009475921.48044.170577236327965&type=1&theater

This is from today's Horse and Hound Magazine, 12.07.12. 
Please can people share the word to anyone living in the areas these bodies are being dumped, to farmers, residents or dog walkers who may have seen vehicles which looked / acted suspiciously. 

We do not have any agenda's and really hope people do not try to get this thread pulled, we will not reply to any attacks against us to discredit us. Please can everyone pull together, act in unity to find out who is responsible. 

*WE WANT TO GET ANSWERS & JUSTICE FOR THESE POOR DEAD INNOCENT FOALS.*

_Just a couple of corrections: VANAH is not a charity but a campaign group which was established after an increasingly high death rate caused by starvation of horses in the Bridgend borough, South Wales in 2010. Then followed the fly-grazing epidemic which we are also trying to fight to bring to an end. _

www.facebook.com/vanah.horses


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## TrasaM (12 July 2012)

Yes..noticed your other thread and guessed it had been pulled. No surprise really when all it resulted in was a slagging match between what I am assuming are Adults. I'd no idea in the end what was going on but it certainly wasn't helping the dead horse /Innocent foals, situation. I'm normally a mild polite person but the original thread really hacked me off. 

Perhaps if all concerned cooperated you might solve the problem?


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## Vanah.Horses (12 July 2012)

TrasaM said:



			Perhaps if all concerned cooperated you might solve the problem?
		
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We wish others would join forces and pool information, plus resources, but we have yet to meet anyone willing to try to do this. We will always keep our doors open for anyone or any group to help us to help the horses, that is ALL that we are for.

We know that this is not just Bridgend and the Vale, it is happening UK wide, but it is very frequent and on increasingly higher numbers in these boroughs of South Wales, almost to the point of being blatantly done to antagonise the council?
Bridgend has 'designated dumping areas' pre-arranged with the council (yes, really!), which in itself is totally absurd and not acceptable either. 

People know who the culprits are, we need people to come forward with information to catch them. If you do not want to go directly to the council or police, we will take the information and pass it on anonymously on your behalf. 

We protect those who are putting themselves at risk by providing information as we know how dangerous informing on certain individuals are. We will ONLY give out your personal details if you give your permission first.

If ANYONE can help, please contact the Vale council, or us. 

We also ask all members of VANAH and Horse + Hound forum, to please send an email to your local MP's to support the campaign to ensure that ALL horses have micro-chips and passports, and also, that the council and authorities actually enforce this legislation to all members of the equine community, regardless if 1 or 1000 horses are owned by one person. There is no excuse to discriminate anyone with this law. Everyone is liable for their horse and to adhere to this regulation. 
What is the point in having legal legislation when no-one enforces it? What is then the point in the Passport and Chip scheme at all? 

The link to parliament to find your local MP is:
http://www.parliament.uk/about/contacting/mp/


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## Amymay (13 July 2012)

Wish the Council's involved would pull the fingers out - and sort it out.

Disgraceful.


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## Ranyhyn (13 July 2012)

Vanah.Horses said:



			People know who the culprits are, we need people to come forward with information to catch them. If you do not want to go directly to the council or police, we will take the information and pass it on anonymously on your behalf. 

We protect those who are putting themselves at risk by providing information as we know how dangerous informing on certain individuals are. We will ONLY give out your personal details if you give your permission first.
		
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You can report to the police anonymously too, I'd be far more likely to trust their protection than a campaign group, sorry.


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## TrasaM (13 July 2012)

Do you know how the foals got to be dead? Natural cause, neglect or killed. .??


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## mountainview22 (13 July 2012)

Hatchet buried, 13 more were found by mine on wednesday morning. If you want more info pm me on facebook, the additional 13 have yet to be disclosed to the public.


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## mountainview22 (13 July 2012)

Trasa, few shot, through the head may I add, others with marks on the head body, others with not sign whatsoever.


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## TrasaM (13 July 2012)

Thank you for replying mountain view.  
What you describe sounds truly awful. How on earth has this gone on for so long without someone doing something about it?  There's DEFRA RSPCA police local authority yet it's still happening?


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## Vanah.Horses (13 July 2012)

TrasaM said:



			ere's DEFRA RSPCA police local authority yet it's still happening?
		
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There are a number of ongoing investigations being conducted, all as cautious as each other. 

We are well known to protect people who provide us with information, that we do everything in our power to never disclose any identity or personal information, unless it is pre-arranged and we have authority. 
We also know that more information is leaked by the authorities to pre-warn owners of horses of concern of intended 'surprise' visits, hence why there is also some reluctance from people to talk to the people who you are supposed to turn to for help. 
We are just providing that branch for people to try to help protect them when giving out obviously very sensitive information.  It is by providing this guarantee we hope more people will stand forward to talk about what they know and for us to forward the information, than for those people to continue to stay quiet. 
Of course people can contact the Trading Standards of the Council's involved who are the people dealing with the dead foals investigations, and we hope that people ARE giving information to whoever can help, the council,police,crimestoppers,us - but it is ultimately the council issuing the appeals and should be the main point of contact. At least there is a choice for people, thats what matters.


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## Ranyhyn (14 July 2012)

I'd still urge anyone who has any information to tell it to the police, not a faceless campaign group who could be anyone.


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## mountainview22 (14 July 2012)

Without starting a debate,  I did see on of your admin leaking a name, admittedly spelling it wrong and it's still there. Either way, atleast now i'm not working for him, or i'm not who I was implied to be  we'll leave it at that.


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## jools123 (14 July 2012)

this is a big warning to us all THERE ARE TOO MANY HORSES OUT THERE STOP BREEDING


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## TrasaM (14 July 2012)

jools123 said:



			this is a big warning to us all THERE ARE TOO MANY HORSES OUT THERE STOP BREEDING

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I wish..like the puppy mills as long as there's a profit in breeding.it will continue. Tighter laws on stallion owning maybe? Plus a body with the authority to enforce.


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## Ranyhyn (14 July 2012)

jools123 said:



			this is a big warning to us all THERE ARE TOO MANY HORSES OUT THERE STOP BREEDING

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Or stop breeding trash?


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## Spook (14 July 2012)

It is a sad fact that there are far too many horses and ponies about and that these foals have suffered such a fate, how awful for the finders of these carcasses.

Is it not time for the horse and animal charities to step up to the plate and offer a subsidised humane euthanasia and disposal service for ill, elderly and unwanted equines and come to that other pet animals? They themselves suggest that owners pts such animals and I am convinced that many more would be pts if it were not for the stigma and to some extent expence associated. If the charities were more open to such an approach owners would not feel so guilty..... I have no problem with any animal being kept into a happy, well looked after old age, but these are desperate times for some.

It is so sad that people are resorting to such barbaric and desperate practice as this.

Very sad indeed


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## jools123 (15 July 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			Or stop breeding trash?
		
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to be honest i think its just stop breeding completely for the next few years-often you dont know its trash till it arrives


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## mountainview22 (15 July 2012)

Jools, couldn't agree more with the first part of that statement!
Unfortunately the horses in original question are defiantly in no way breeding stock.


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## Bigbenji (15 July 2012)

World of differance in people who put thought, time and money into breeding to those who just put any old coloured cob in a field with a bunch of substandad mares in the hope that something with a bit of feather will pop out 

Poor little foals.


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## Spook (15 July 2012)

Unless there is a market there is no sense in breeding at all. There will be a few folk who will catch the market just as it picks up (when ey?) and those few may make a killing ...good luck to them..... There will not be a market for youngstock untill there is a shortage thereof, if studs etc. keep breeding this will be a long time coming!

House prices are falling nationwide, pretty much, with so many concerns...mortgage, work, children..... who is worrying about equines, the charities?? They need to get a grip and do something positive.


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## siennamum (17 July 2012)

So presumably the colt foals are killed as they can't be bred from & currently they are too expensive to fatten up - even if it is on someone elses land. The fillies are kept for further breeding, and as a rule these animals are all being bred for meat - such as the 100's exported on the hoof to the continent, by the Essex guy recently prosecuted.

It is a National disgrace that there is a huge, unregulated & brutal business breeding livestock for consumption which the authorities are turning a blind eye to. I suppose one consolation is that the indifferent end consumers of these animals will be eating lots of meat raised on a diet of ragwort.


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## Alec Swan (17 July 2012)

siennamum said:



			.......

It is a National disgrace that there is a huge, unregulated & brutal business breeding livestock for consumption which the authorities are turning a blind eye to. I suppose one consolation is that the indifferent end consumers of these animals will be eating lots of meat raised on a diet of ragwort.
		
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To break down your argument,  a little,  I'm not so sure that the business of breeding horses for meat is "Huge".  I'll agree that as an industry,  and specifically for equines,  then if meat production is the end goal of the breeder,  then it should be regulated,  just as are cattle and sheep.  Whether it's brutal or not,  would also be open to question.  If you consider that it's wrong that horses are eaten,  then I fail to see the distinction between horses and cattle.  

With regulation of this dubious industry,  then record keeping would be a requirement and those owning the breeding stock would have terms and conditions laid down by Defra and the EU.

I accept that here in the UK we tend to view horses in a different light from the rest of the Continent.  With the export bans now in place,  for live animals,  and the facility within passports to remove a horse from the human food chain,  we as a nation,  have done our equines no service at all.  If there is no commercial meat outlet for youngsters,  and there isn't,  then there are those who will shoot and dump their unwanted foals and youngsters.  

As I see it,  the only certain lines of prosecution would be that the owners have failed to properly dispose of the carcasses.  Whilst the practice of breeding foals,  and then simply shooting and dumping them,  seems to be both wasteful and pointless,  it doesn't automatically carry the label of cruelty.

Alec.


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## siennamum (17 July 2012)

We have issues in the SW with herds of equines being kept (not dumped) on industrial sites, being killed on the roads and costing the taxpayer a blooming fortune, not interested in subsidising someone elses lifestyle in this way.



Alec Swan said:



			To break down your argument,  a little,  I'm not so sure that the business of breeding horses for meat is "Huge".  I'll agree that as an industry,  and specifically for equines,  then if meat production is the end goal of the breeder,  then it should be regulated,  just as are cattle and sheep.  Whether it's brutal or not,  would also be open to question.  If you consider that it's wrong that horses are eaten,  then I fail to see the distinction between horses and cattle.  

[I*]I have no particular issue with horses being eaten, so long as they have some protection. Instead they are kept in horrendous conditions shipped indifferently from one end of the country to the other and if surplus to requirements slaughtered by being beaten round the head in some instances it seems. What the other foals died from isn't clear - aside from those that were shot, but if people slaughtered calves by beating them round the head, drowning them or similar it would be in the DM. This may not be a huge industry but there are thousands of equines, (Welsh Hill ponies, Dartmoor Hill Ponies, loose herds of 100's of horses in unsafe Industrial areas all over the UK)  in it so it isn't small.[*/I]

With regulation of this dubious industry,  then record keeping would be a requirement and those owning the breeding stock would have terms and conditions laid down by Defra and the EU.

I accept that here in the UK we tend to view horses in a different light from the rest of the Continent.  With the export bans now in place,  for live animals,  and the facility within passports to remove a horse from the human food chain,  we as a nation,  have done our equines no service at all.  If there is no commercial meat outlet for youngsters,  and there isn't,  then there are those who will shoot and dump their unwanted foals and youngsters.  

[I*]There are outlets, they require rule breaking, but horses have been shipped to Ireland and the Continent for decades for meat, and until recently it was presumably nice and profitable if you had no overheads. I can't see a single argument in favour of resinstating live export for meat as an option.[/I]
*
As I see it,  the only certain lines of prosecution would be that the owners have failed to properly dispose of the carcasses.  Whilst the practice of breeding foals,  and then simply shooting and dumping them,  seems to be both wasteful and pointless,  it doesn't automatically carry the label of cruelty.

*Shooting them may be acceptable, as it is with bull calves, but it isn't clear how some have been killed which is worrying and others have apparently been beaten round the head - personally I think the whole scenario of the way these foals are raised kept and disposed of disgusting, suprised anyone wouldn't tbh*

Alec.
		
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## Ranyhyn (17 July 2012)

Is there any solid evidence that they were beaten - or do they have lesions/bruising that could have happened after death - ie when being loaded onto a wagon in order to be dumped?
I've had fallen stock be collected and dragged up the hunt's ramp and if they were unloaded the other side and a do-gooder laid eyes on them, I'm quite sure they might also summise about the fact my ewes had been "beaten" or "brutalised" just some of the emotive language that accompanies these stories.

Not saying they haven't, though.  But don't we work on the premise of innocent until proven guilty, in this country?


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## FairyLights (18 July 2012)

Talking to someone the other day who breeds decent coloured cobs. He tells me one guy in S Wales ownes over 2500 and another over 1700. Until These people are hit in their pockets they wont do anything about keeping on breeding these unfortunate animals. Meanwhile this over breeding is killing the market for responsible breeders.


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## Alec Swan (18 July 2012)

siennamum,

I accept your points,  but there's a world of difference between a meat producing industry,  and those who are capitalising on land which is viewed as "Free",  free that is,  to keep horses on.

If the situation is as bad as everyone seems to think,  then the simple answer is that the owners of these horses should be tracked down  or failing that notices placed where the owner couldn't reasonably be expected to miss them,  and then it should be clearly pointed out that if the animals aren't removed (within a specified period),  then they will be herded together,  and shot.  End of the problem,  I'd say,  what do you think?

Alec.


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## FairyLights (18 July 2012)

I agree Alec.


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## siennamum (18 July 2012)

They do all of the above in S Wales. One guy has massive Scania transporters, he rounds them up and takes the live ones on the day the 14 day period runs out. Leaves the corpses for the council to clear. 

As horses are forever says this one guy alone has 2,500 gypsy cobs in South Wales. Many if not most roaming on public land including up and down the M$ and a range of A roads, it costs the taxpayer a fortune and is predominantly a meat business with those numbers involved.


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## Crugeran Celt (18 July 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			siennamum,

I accept your points,  but there's a world of difference between a meat producing industry,  and those who are capitalising on land which is viewed as "Free",  free that is,  to keep horses on.

If the situation is as bad as everyone seems to think,  then the simple answer is that the owners of these horses should be tracked down  or failing that notices placed where the owner couldn't reasonably be expected to miss them,  and then it should be clearly pointed out that if the animals aren't removed (within a specified period),  then they will be herded together,  and shot.  

Alec.
		
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Can to owner be amongst them at that time!


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## TrasaM (18 July 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			Can to owner be amongst them at that time!
		
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I'm struggling to understand this comment?


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## Crugeran Celt (18 July 2012)

When they are rounded up and shot! That would ensure an end to it for sure!


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## Bigbenji (18 July 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			When they are rounded up and shot! That would ensure an end to it for sure!
		
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Indeed!


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## TrasaM (18 July 2012)

Crugeran Celt said:



			When they are rounded up and shot! That would ensure an end to it for sure!
		
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That ought to work horses did not create the problem after all.
 huge problem in Ireland as well and back in springtime 65 horses were rounded up and euthanised. I'm sure there are lots more but this is just the one event I know of as I was in Galway at the time.
 Victims of the recession apparently.


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## Vanah.Horses (18 July 2012)

TrasaM said:



			That ought to work horses did not create the problem after all.
 huge problem in Ireland as well and back in springtime 65 horses were rounded up and euthanised. I'm sure there are lots more but this is just the one event I know of as I was in Galway at the time.
 Victims of the recession apparently.
		
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Sadly it is all around the UK, Ireland and Wales. All horse owners are being hit very badly with the recession and it doesnt seem to be getting any better. 
However, its also about having the right number of horses that you are able to afford to keep, and clearly, said breeders who do indeed have 2000 and a lot more horses, cannot afford to keep them at their own personal cost, as they allow them to fly-graze on everyone else's land or gardens. 

Everyone needs to stop the over-breeding throughout the UK as a whole. People need to remove the stallions, castrate the colts (dont let them continue to run with their mothers and sisters for a year or two - they are fertile and have been seen covering mares), euthanise/sell or even give away some of the horses! The owners are clearly not coping or able to accept they need help (or more to the point,one who actually doesnt even care two pennies worth for most of the 'second herd' they own).  and they need to stop now as the horses situations are getting much worse each and every winter, not better! 

All the rescues are hugely over-burdened, they cannot re-home a lot of the existing horses they have, which would enable them to receive more very urgent cases. To the point, a lot of these rescues now suggest euthanise as an alternate (sometimes only option) instead of being able to take the horses in for care. 

Where are all the horses going to end up? Dead, starving, suffering, abandoned, killed and dumped? 
At least if they are euthanised with the practive carried out by experienced and qualified veterinarians, huntsmen, or other such person, the process would be very quick, the suffering ended, and the bodies disposed of in the correct manner. 
Its not what we want, its not something we like to say, but what is the worse outcome for these poor foals? A very hard, stressful and usually very short life struggling to eat before being sent off on thousands of miles journey, frightened and scared and suffering until they meet an end in a slaughterhouse, in who knows what dreadful conditions. 

The owners need to wake up, stop breeding. 
We need to at least limit the amount of foals being born, possibly enable the owners to afford to castrate what colts are born, or have a chance of a future with people who care.


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## TrasaM (18 July 2012)

Can't see the point in breeding horses for meat. How economic can it be when they take at least 4years to full growth?


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## siennamum (18 July 2012)

TrasaM said:



			Can't see the point in breeding horses for meat. How economic can it be when they take at least 4years to full growth?
		
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It's like a black market version of continental breeding.

Breed for type. In this case gypsy cobs which were fetching good money a few years ago. Keep & sell the good ones at market. Ship the crap ones off for meat. In principle perfectly reasonable & not unlike barns of youngstock on the continent, where a proportion will go for meat, or similarly racehorse breeding in this country.  In reality when the bottom has dropped out of the market less of a good idea. Economics are relative really, after all they will not have to pay for keep, food, farriery, worming, passports or any welfare of the animals. clearly they also don't pay to have surplus colts slaughtered humanely.


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## Crugeran Celt (18 July 2012)

Vanah.Horses said:



			Sadly it is all around the UK, Ireland and Wales. All horse owners are being hit very badly with the recession and it doesnt seem to be getting any better. 
However, its also about having the right number of horses that you are able to afford to keep, and clearly, said breeders who do indeed have 2000 and a lot more horses, cannot afford to keep them at their own personal cost, as they allow them to fly-graze on everyone else's land or gardens. 

Everyone needs to stop the over-breeding throughout the UK as a whole. People need to remove the stallions, castrate the colts (dont let them continue to run with their mothers and sisters for a year or two - they are fertile and have been seen covering mares), euthanise/sell or even give away some of the horses! The owners are clearly not coping or able to accept they need help (or more to the point,one who actually doesnt even care two pennies worth for most of the 'second herd' they own).  and they need to stop now as the horses situations are getting much worse each and every winter, not better! 

All the rescues are hugely over-burdened, they cannot re-home a lot of the existing horses they have, which would enable them to receive more very urgent cases. To the point, a lot of these rescues now suggest euthanise as an alternate (sometimes only option) instead of being able to take the horses in for care. 

Where are all the horses going to end up? Dead, starving, suffering, abandoned, killed and dumped? 
At least if they are euthanised with the practive carried out by experienced and qualified veterinarians, huntsmen, or other such person, the process would be very quick, the suffering ended, and the bodies disposed of in the correct manner. 
Its not what we want, its not something we like to say, but what is the worse outcome for these poor foals? A very hard, stressful and usually very short life struggling to eat before being sent off on thousands of miles journey, frightened and scared and suffering until they meet an end in a slaughterhouse, in who knows what dreadful conditions. 

The owners need to wake up, stop breeding. 
We need to at least limit the amount of foals being born, possibly enable the owners to afford to castrate what colts are born, or have a chance of a future with people who care.
		
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If this is the case then surely an option for the powers that be would be to humanely cull these unwanted animals so taking away any profit these people would make. Wouldn't that encourage these 'breeders' to stop this. I may be being very niave, there is a breeder of gypsy cobs near me and I have spoken to him regularly and haven't given it a thought that he could be involved in something like this and I am sure he isn't as he breeds nice natured animals and I have noticed that he is starting to breed palaminos and duns now obviously as fashion coloureds are no longer selling at a stupidly high price regardless of quality.


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## Alec Swan (18 July 2012)

TrasaM said:



			Can't see the point in breeding horses for meat. How economic can it be when they take at least 4years to full growth?
		
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That of course,  is a valid point.  Those horses in France which were traditionally bred for the table,  were generally killed,  as lambs are,  shortly after weaning,  or at least by the age of 12 months.

The trade in horses,  today,  is in the adult animals which are of no further use to their owners.  That trade may well include the South Wale-an cobs,  but better a humane and correct end,  than being left to scavenge as best they can.  That's the obscenity,  I'd suggest.

Alec.


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## Spook (18 July 2012)

The answer is for abbotoirs to be opened in England, Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland. The horses would not have to travel huge distances to slaughter (which is one of the main welfare issues associated with the horse meat trade). Some value would return to the horse/pony market (there is a world shortage of meat incidentally) as a bottom would be put in by the meat value. There would not be the welfare issues associated with a horse population of little or no value whatsoever.

This may be an unpalettable soloution for many people but it would solve most of the welfare problems we are seeing now, and have been doing for quite some years, indeed before the recession started this was a problem. We forget that historically horses have always had a carcasevalue be it from the knackery or the abotoir.

Perhaps this shouldbe lobbied for by the charities.


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## Alec Swan (18 July 2012)

Spook,

that's all very well,  and you're right,  but it's your last line that I have problems with;  to wit,  "The Charities"  are reliant upon donations,  they will never support a reinstatement of the status quo.

We now have equine passports where there's a section for an owner to sell the horse with a condition that it never goes into the food chain.  Any such animal sold has an immediate and liable penalty put upon it.  The horse which has a slaughter value of £500 now has the liability of a £1000 disposal cost attached to it.

The Equine welfare bodies will all agree,  *privately*,  that we need a commercial disposal system,  but as they rely upon charitable donations,  in the main,  few have the courage to step up and be counted. 

Alec.


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## TrasaM (18 July 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Spook,

that's all very well,  and you're right,  but it's your last line that I have problems with;  to wit,  "The Charities"  are reliant upon donations,  they will never support a reinstatement of the status quo.

We now have equine passports where there's a section for an owner to sell the horse with a condition that it never goes into the food chain.  Any such animal sold has an immediate and liable penalty put upon it.  The horse which has a slaughter value of £500 now has the liability of a £1000 disposal cost attached to it.

The Equine welfare bodies will all agree,  *privately*,  that we need a commercial disposal system,  but as they rely upon charitable donations,  in the main,  few have the courage to step up and be counted. 

Alec.
		
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So it's the economics of cost rather than the economics of value which makes the situation worse then?


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## Koala Kate (18 July 2012)

WOW!!! 
You guys sure do fight !


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## TrasaM (18 July 2012)

Koala Kate said:



			WOW!!! 
You guys sure do fight !
		
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 fight ?  Who's fighting?


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## YorksG (18 July 2012)

I remember well when we had local horse abbatoirs and the EU rules whch made them impossible to continue was one of the worst days work done  We were fortunate that we had such an abbatoir in our area, we are also fortunate that when it closed as a commercial abbatoir, it then continued as a 'pet' cremmatorium. I still fail to understand why a large herbivore is not seen as a viable source of meat in this country. I also fail to see who would eat mature horse meat, as opposed to younger meat, as we eat in all other cases.


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## Spook (19 July 2012)

Koala Kate said:



			WOW!!! 
You guys sure do fight !
		
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No, not fighting either, just discussing the subject, a soloution is vital for the wellbeing of all equines.

Yes one of the reasons we are in such a predicament is to some extent to do with the economics of the animal charities..... If the soloution discussed was employed the Charities would not be so vial for animal welfare as there would be far fewer cases of elderly, unwanted, lame or neglected animals going about, those bred for meat at present (and I'm not sure many are at all) would only travel a relatively short distance to slaughter, no more than our cattle do hopefully, and leave the contry on the hook.

Alec Swan, The Charities are being disingenuous if privately they say one thing but refuse  commit, so far as I can see,  to the only action to solve the problem. Which camp is the BHS in?? 

Of course the Horse Charities would find themselves to be largely un-neccessary, but not completely....... Is that the problem???????

Of course we would run the risk of there being a profitable trade in meat horses, unlikly I think (and this is probably a reason the slaughter houses would need to be charity driven as they would only work when the throughput was viable otherwise) In a country where we eat large herbivores anyway the arguement against horse meat is a tad wobbly and largely emotive. Untill very recent times studs have always sent their unwanted/poor quality horses in for meat, the best being the kept, the cream of the crop. .....and this is a reason we have so much crap going about in ALL breeds(Another subject perhaps)

And yes in poor econoic times studs always have sold some or most of their yongsters for meat. We are in a mess of our own making due to the persistant brainwasing by the animal rights lobbyists..... we are very guilleable.


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## TrasaM (19 July 2012)

I knew very little about the horse meat situation except of course for the issue of transporting live animals to the continent under what was reported as terrible conditions. However having grown up on a farm with beef cattle we were never under any illusion as children as to where they would end up. Even the cute baby ones we had to hand feed. As to eating horse, personally I'd prefer not but I used the sense in having a proper system set up whereby they are humanely killed and their meat used rather than being incinerated. Environmentally I'm pretty sure this would also be better. I don't know what it is about horse. I happily eat venison and have no conflict with pictures of cute bambi creatures and venison on my plate so I suppose it's just a mind shift.

Outside the farming community most people have little or no contact with farm animals and there is definitely a lack of understanding as to how those packages of meat get to the butchers and supermarkets. Remember the fuss some years back about orphren calves and the dairy farmers?  
Reality check is needed for us all methinks.  Government often hives off it's sticky animal welfare issues on charities.  Charities get their funds from people who care and believe they are doing the right thing and their presence allows authorities to hive off problems of animal welfare onto charities when they should be dealt with properly through government agencies and the legal system.


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## Vanah.Horses (19 July 2012)

Spook said:



			The answer is for abbotoirs to be opened in England, Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland. The horses would not have to travel huge distances to slaughter (which is one of the main welfare issues associated with the horse meat trade). Some value would return to the horse/pony market (there is a world shortage of meat incidentally) as a bottom would be put in by the meat value. There would not be the welfare issues associated with a horse population of little or no value whatsoever.

This may be an unpalettable soloution for many people but it would solve most of the welfare problems we are seeing now, and have been doing for quite some years, indeed before the recession started this was a problem. We forget that historically horses have always had a carcasevalue be it from the knackery or the abotoir.

Perhaps this shouldbe lobbied for by the charities.
		
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This has been subject to a massive petition, lobbied and recently reviewed by the government who made a very few slight changes, but basically allowed the process to continue.

There are two main equine slaughterhouses in the UK, Turners and Potters, and these buy horses at the market and privately. They also export live.
Mares, geldings, stallions, colts, fillies, and foal are ALL acceptable to be entered into the meat slaughter chain (even pregnant mares). 

Due to the huge campaign in the USA to stop the horses being travelled many thousands of miles to slaughter in Mexico and Canada after the usa equine slaughter ban, they recently RE-INTRODUCED the equine slaughter facility. 
Horses are turning up in urban areas, such as Miami-Dade, that have been butchered and remains left that would prove they were slaughtered for meat, not just to dispose of a body. 
Another reason they re-introduced the slaughter was to try to stop all the back-street butchers that carry out self-slaughters in who knows what methods or conditions.


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## Spook (19 July 2012)

Do Turners and Potters export live horses and ponies out of the UK for slaughter?

If not who are "They" Vannah.Horses


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## Alec Swan (20 July 2012)

Vanah.Horses said:



			.......
There are two main equine slaughterhouses in the UK, Turners and Potters, and these buy horses at the market and privately. They also export live.
.......
		
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I'm assuming that you have evidence to support your statement.  I'd like to see it,  because I doubt your claim.

..........................................

The breeding of horses for meat in this country has always been viewed with a great deal of distaste.  We have never had abattoirs which have been set up,  on a commercial basis,  to deal with horses, and we never will,  because firstly,  the will simply isn't there,  and secondly,  the production of horses for meat would make for no economic sense.  

We have only ever _previously_ had slaughter houses which have viewed horses as of secondary interest to the main slaughter of farm stock.  The Continental market for horse meat is generally centred around young and purpose bred horses,  the old and the infirm,  the knackered,  would go as processed meat and certainly not as a prime purpose bred and finished product.  All that we generally have to offer the Continental meat buyers,  would be meat from the lower end of the value scale.

It would be quite correctly illegal to transport horses which are not fit to travel,  those with broken limbs,  for instance,  so the bulk of those horses taken in by our two existing specialist equine abattoirs,  would only fit into the category of the less than desirable,  from the meat buyers perspective.  

As a Nation,  we've been through times of stringent recession before,  but after a brief lull,  we've turned it round,  and once again been on the up.  This recession is world wide and it's here to stay.  We have to learn how to live within our means,  and that wont include the speculative business of breeding horses that no one wants,  or can afford. In our current economic climate,  and following on from a massive over production of horses,  we have a huge excess,  with no coherent plan for their disposal.  That in itself wouldn't be grounds for the capitol expenditure,  which is massive,  which would be needed to construct equine abattoirs,  from scratch.

In my view the two existing abattoirs,  Potters and Turners should be given every support,  not only from the horse owning public,  but from Government.  As someone else has said,  Government tends to hive off the responsibilities of animal welfare to the charities (that makes for good vote gathering tactics ),  so there's little support to be had from that direction,  though I suppose that if we were to invite officials from the BHS or the RSPCA or other such bodies to comment on there stance regarding the commercial slaughter of horses,  perhaps if they're in agreement,  it would be a step towards solving our current problem.

I'd be interested to hear the comments of the Original Poster,  to this post.

With a base line commercial value for our horses,  we will have a starting point,  and a reason for the less than moral to make greater efforts to protect their investment.  With no such value,  foals,  are apparently being dumped and awaiting Council refuse collection.  It's a sorry state of affairs.  Whinging about it and reporting the offenders to Authority is demonstrably pointless.  We need to support another system,  and *"WE" is you and I*.  We need to lobby those charities who have the ear of Government,  in an effort to support our existing and limited and local abattoirs.

That's what I think,  and I shan't be wearing a tin hat,  because I believe in my argument!! 

Alec.


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## siennamum (20 July 2012)

If equines are to be reared for meat they need the same protection as other livestock. I agree with the poster who suggested a mass cull would be a start. I think Potters & Turners do a good job, they are just awash with unwanted animals at the moment though.
In their fields you will see ponies with foal at foot, who are in foal, all being fattened for slaughter. The whole situation is a disgrace, this petition will interest anyone who feels the same:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/35003


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## TrasaM (20 July 2012)

siennamum said:



			If equines are to be reared for meat they need the same protection as other livestock. I agree with the poster who suggested a mass cull would be a start. I think Potters & Turners do a good job, they are just awash with unwanted animals at the moment though.
In their fields you will see ponies with foal at foot, who are in foal, all being fattened for slaughter. The whole situation is a disgrace, this petition will interest anyone who feels the same:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/35003

Click to expand...

Signed. Perhaps a new thread explaining the petition would also be beneficial.


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## Alec Swan (20 July 2012)

siennamum said:



			.......

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/35003

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I'm about to sign it,  but am unsure as to the intention of the petition.  Is the intention A/  To simply bring horses into the same regulatory control as other farm livestock,  and thereby make the owners responsible,  B/ To attempt to put a stop to those who would breed ostensibly for meat?  A combination of A & B or C/ Any other intention?

I agree with those who would have the practise of breeding horses for meat,  stopped,  but am realistic enough to accept that firstly the current situation needs dealing with,  with a degree of expediency,  and secondly that stiff and enforceable regulations may help in the future,  the one small fly in the ointment being,  that if the owners of these horses have no fixed abode,  then as with all other crime and regulation which applies to them,  the Authorities seem loathe to act.  Something to do with race relations,  or their level of ethnicity,  so I'm told. 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (20 July 2012)

TrasaM said:



			........ Perhaps a new thread explaining the petition would also be beneficial.
		
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We've cross posted.  Quite and I agree.

Alec.


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## Cuffey (20 July 2012)

Personal opinion
If horses are bred specifically for meat then all the regulations applied to our other meat producing animals should be adhered to including proper identification,control of medication etc 

If this business were to increase in UK more properly licensed abattoirs will be needed, long distance transport to less well regulated abattoirs outside UK must be stopped

THE breeder in S Wales will say he does not produce for meat--his intention is to breed cobs selling for 4 figures plus to sell to US and Continental buyers


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## Crugeran Celt (20 July 2012)

This might seem like a really silly question but do pople have to have a licience to keep a stallion? If not why not? I am sure this problem does not only apply to horses but to dogs and cats also,  it is a very sad fact that there are many animals living an awful life only to meet a painfull early death. I still feel that these animals should be humanely culled, surely they can be removed from the owner if it is proved that he is unable to supply a suitable habitat for them, if it was one of us with an animal that was not being looked after I am sure they would be confiscated pretty quick. Once a cull has been carried out and owner banned from horse ownership the situation would improve as I am sure he/she/them would not bother trying to build up another herd especially if they were checked regularly. In the long run that would be cheaper than having to clear up the carcusses of these foals every year!


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## tristar (20 July 2012)

stallions no longer are legally obliged to be licensed, my first stallion many years ago was licenced by the ministry of agriculture, a vet came and gave him a basic vetting and opinion on confo etc., the licencing was abandoned later maybe because horse are not considered agricultural animals in uk.

my present stallion is licenced by his breed society to enable his foals to be registered.

i personally think all stallions and breeders of horses should be licenced, the current tragic situation is prove enough for anybody, i should have thought.


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## Crugeran Celt (20 July 2012)

Tristar I totaly agree thats why I asked if they were, as I bred a foal 19 years ago and used a licienced stallion so assumed that they still had to be.  Perhaps that would be a way forward that all stallions should only be kept by a registered, licienced owner. Unfortunately until something is decided more and more horses and other animals are going to be found this way as this type of peson will not keep what they can't sell for a profit. Perhaps cheaper vets fees for gelding would be another suggestion.


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## Spook (21 July 2012)

I think this is pertinent to this thread?

Today I have been told of a vet refusing to pts 2 horses which the owner can no longer afford to keep, one is elderly but healthy and the other has long standing health issues requiring constant monitoring.... neither is in pain, but one is intermittently uncomfortable. The grounds for refusal are that they have a good quality of life and that the conditions are manageable. Personally I think this is a disgraceful situation.

If the owner of the foals which were dumped or any other persons met with this attitude what on earth are they supposed to do??? The owner is going to ring the knackery, but she really had wanted the deed done by injection.

Are vets not overly keen on the horse population dropping??


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## YorksG (21 July 2012)

Spook said:



			I think this is pertinent to this thread?

Today I have been told of a vet refusing to pts 2 horses which the owner can no longer afford to keep, one is elderly but healthy and the other has long standing health issues requiring constant monitoring.... neither is in pain, but one is intermittently uncomfortable. The grounds for refusal are that they have a good quality of life and that the conditions are manageable. Personally I think this is a disgraceful situation.

If the owner of the foals which were dumped or any other persons met with this attitude what on earth are they supposed to do??? The owner is going to ring the knackery, but she really had wanted the deed done by injection.

Are vets not overly keen on the horse population dropping??
		
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That is such bad practise by the vet, that one wonders at which point the vet does believe it is appropriate to euthenise the animal, when it is emmaciated when the owner cannot afford to feed it, perhaps?


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## FfionWinnie (22 July 2012)

Amazing they get away with it. If it was a cattle or sheep farmer running animals and dumping bodies like this they would be in jail for it!


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## Spook (31 July 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			Amazing they get away with it. If it was a cattle or sheep farmer running animals and dumping bodies like this they would be in jail for it!
		
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Well hauled over the coals at least!! We must get a grip!!!!! and so must The Charities & Do Gooders.


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## Rollin (1 August 2012)

tristar said:



			stallions no longer are legally obliged to be licensed, my first stallion many years ago was licenced by the ministry of agriculture, a vet came and gave him a basic vetting and opinion on confo etc., the licencing was abandoned later maybe because horse are not considered agricultural animals in uk.

my present stallion is licenced by his breed society to enable his foals to be registered.

i personally think all stallions and breeders of horses should be licenced, the current tragic situation is prove enough for anybody, i should have thought.
		
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In France, I am regarded as an 'agriculturalist' because I breed horses.  I do not need a licence for my stallion but

all horses must be registered on the National Database SIRE

all movements of horses must be recorded either in a book or now registered on line with National Stud.  If a book is used, then one page per horse which must be signed by the local Mayor.

all 'keepers' of horses must be registered

stallions must have a breeding book issued at the beginning of each year, all coverings are notified to National Stud on-line and if for some reason the stallion does not have a book foal births must be registered on-line within 15 days.

People who breed from horses who have no SIRE number can only obtain 'pet ID' type passports for their foals and they cannot then compete in anything other than Western Riding or Le Trec.

The National Stud also protects breeders by refusing to issue passports if covering fees have not been paid to the stallion owners.


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## mountainview22 (7 August 2012)

Wow, learn a little  or a lot in my case, every day.

Just an update, a lot of mares And foals have been rounded up. Pistol shots on yard have been heard, had loose horses up and down the lanes for two weeks. Just to keep you up to date on my area...


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## Alec Swan (7 August 2012)

However sad that may be,  and it is,  it's the better way.  

Somehow,  someone,  somewhere,  needs to have a hold on the owners,  and point out to them,  quite clearly,  that this really wont do.

No one who shoots horses enjoys doing it,  NO ONE.  I've done it,  and hate it.

Alec.


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## mountainview22 (9 August 2012)

Bridgend county borough council have advertised two jobs, a horse warden and assistant horse warden, Cardiff councils horse warden now works for tom unfortunately...


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## Hairy Old Cob (9 August 2012)

ITs not only Happening in Bridgend Dead Foals are turning up in Leicestershire & Northamptonshire NO Prizes for Guessing where they are coming from


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