# Starvation Paddocks/Laminitis



## Kayfamily (22 April 2010)

How big should a starvation paddock be? 

Got a sec A about 4 weeks ago, he's definitely a fatty with a big crest, his feet were a mess when we got him so farrier came trimmed his feet and put front shoes on, next day he was lame thought at first he might just be a bit foot sore, not sure how long since he was last done, anyway he never got any better so I got a different farrier out who took his shoes off and trimmed his feet properly, his soles are bruised and he still has heat in off side fore. He hasn't been ridden for a fortnight and I don't want him putting any more weight on, farrier is sure he's had laminitis at some point. 

He's out in the day and stabled at night with no more than 1 slice of soaked hay. 

He's the only pony we've got so there's no one else to eat the grass down for him I've cut the grass as short as I can and moved him to one end where's there's a bit more shade (there's no field shelter in there).

Can I do anything else to prevent laminitis?


----------



## elizabeth1 (22 April 2010)

The laminitis clinic has an excellent website with lots of useful information.Otherwise feed companies like Dengie  or Spillers or Dodson and Horrell are also very helpful.You are obviously aware of the dangers and staying alert is the single most important factor in dealing with a potential laminitic!You need to learn to take his digital pulse daily as a raised pulse shows an attack is beginning-get your farrier to show you how.
Good Luck!


----------



## touchstone (22 April 2010)

If he has already had laminitis and recently been lame then I think I'd put him on a small starvation area and muzzle him so he gets practically no grass but is still managing to move around.  

He still needs plenty of fibre though, so I'd weigh his hay and make sure he was getting 1.5% of what his bodyweight 'should' be. Soaking hay helps to reduce the sugars. I use a track system around the edge of the paddock sucessfully, but it does need to be grazed down gradually.  Feeding magnesium oxide can help to metabolise fat and Naf have brought out Slimline which is supposed to help. The world Horse Welfare website has some good information on dealing with obese ponies.

If he's still sore at the moment I'd be worried that he has low grade laminits and stop his grass intake altogether, bringing him in onto a deep bed with soaked hay.  Regularly checking his digital pulses can indicate whether it is flaring up.

Good luck with getting his weight down, at least you are getting on top of it!


----------



## Hels_Bells (22 April 2010)

We used to have a 12.2hh Welsh Mountain pony who was laminitic and he would go out in an area of grass that was probably about 20 x 10m or something like that.


----------



## wizzybit (22 April 2010)

Short grass is stressed grass which has a MUCH higher sugar content.  At the moment he needs NO grass and lots movement with no shoes on.
Best way to achieve this is to create a "Paddock Paradise" - google this for more info.  Is basically a track which you can make either round the edge of the paddock or in and out of yards, roads, tracks driveways etc.
Soak his hay approx 15 mins will dissolve most of the sugar then rinse it before feeding.  To keep his pH levels neutral, he needs to eat 18 hours out of 24.  It is perfectly ok to feed him oat straw ad-lib to keep him happy.  This has a sugar content of less >2%.  He may get a fat belly as a result of higher fibre in his hind gut.  Also make sure he is getting adequate MgO2 (Magnesium Dioxide) - most horses in this country are lacking in this essential mineral.  You can buy it direct from ebay and is fed at a rate of 2g per 100kg body weight it's pretty cheap, approx £10/kg so should last you ages.  Lastly if he isn't being fed any grass at all he will need vit e, protein, salt, calcium as a minimum requirement.  If you need any more specific dietary advice you can pm me.


----------



## galaxy (22 April 2010)

There are actually more sugars in the grass 1st thing in the morning and last thing at night, so a lot of people bring in 1st thing in the morning and turn out last thing at night.

The other thing to reduce the risk of lami is exercise exercise exercise!  A vet around here who was a lami/foot nut (!!) said he's never met a horse that was in proper work that got lami.  

Obviously it's only a small pony, but could you lunge him?  20 mins once or twice a day would really help.

If you have no other horses to keep the grass down, I think muzzling him when out would be a good idea.  Then you can give him a slightly larger area to roam.


----------



## DuckToller (22 April 2010)

New research has shown that the level of sugars in grass rises steadily throughout the day, in line with the amount of sunshine the grass receives, and peaking in the afternoon, so therefore it is better to bring them in around mid day.  

Hay needs to be soaked for around 12 hours to properly reduce the amount of sugars.

Fructans in stressed grass are now proven NOT to be responsible for causing laminitis -  it is the weeks/months/years of overfeeding that cause an attack.  The fat in the crest/body/quarters is not inactive, it secretes a hormone, which in turn causes inflammation, which affects the lamellae of the hoof.  There you have it - the fat causes laminitis.

So stressed grass is not the cause, and this is according to the very latest research, merely the final few calories that can tip the balance and trigger laminitis - fructans are no more evil than any other form of calorie!  Therefore turning out on the shortest grass you can find is best.  Restrict the area - I was told to fence of an area the size of a basket ball court, get other horses to eat it right down, and only then turn out my laminitic out on it.  

How old is the pony?  As suggested, can you lunge, walk in hand, or even clip him? The best way of reducing his risk is to decrease his fat as quickly as you can, without starving him.  As suggested above, feeding straw, soaked hay, and reduced grazing all good.  Can you get him a companion, to help eat the grass and with the benefit that he  has a friend, someone to play with and run about with, and use up more calories?


----------



## Kayfamily (22 April 2010)

Thanks for the advice Llewelyn, Cracker is 12 yrs old. I'm not sure if he's ever been lunged and I haven't got the equipment needed, I am walking him in hand around the paddock and he seems fine doing that if I take him on the road he's lame. 
I have been looking for another horse for me but as I need something that can take my husband's weight (abought 15stone) and I wanted one that was sensible enough for me to lead the kids from I have been struggling to find what I need.
At the minute he is on shavings when he's in are you suggesting that a straw bed would be better or should I just provide straw as a food supplement?
I am also going to set up a track system for him.


----------



## scallywags (22 April 2010)

My sec a has a paddock about 8x14m. 

My old vets also suggested 1 section of hay twice a day soaked. But I disagree as horses need adlib forage to aviod gastric issuse like ulsers. Horses have evolved as grazers, to graze for 18 hrs a day. Our fields are just too lush, compared to what wild horses live off. So IMO its the quality of the feed thats the problem not the quantity.

I feed my boy ad lib hay all winter. As the grass grows, and that is too many calories, I change it and feed him, ad lib barley straw, and 1 secion of hay twice a day. He also has a broadstectrum vitamin suppliment daily, in a handful of chaff. 
I've had him 4 yrs, and this routine suits us. As his weight is kept off and he's happy munching all day, like he's evolved to do.


----------



## Hels_Bells (22 April 2010)

If you want to get grass down, I bet a local farmer might be happy to get a bit of free grazing for his sheep from you esp if there's plenty of good long grass???  Might be worth an ask around while you look for horse #2.  They will top it off in no time and then maintain it nice and short!


----------



## wizzybit (22 April 2010)

I didn't know that Llewellyn, interesting about about fructans/stressed grass etc.  Can you point me in the direction of the latest up to date science behind this?

Thanks


----------



## brucea (22 April 2010)

Elizabeth - the feed companies what to sell you...well feed. Very few of the bagged feeds are actually suitable for laminitics - even the ones with the Laminitis Trust logo. 

Kayfamily - 




			he's definitely a fatty with a big crest, his feet were a mess
		
Click to expand...

Have a look on the UKNHCP forum - lots of folks sucessfully manageing ponies like this on there and you'll get practical advice.

Are you feeding Magnesium Oxide at all? Your pony sounds typically metabolically challenged.

We have 2 wiht these whale crests - in bith cases when we put them onto MagOx, the crest started coming down after a loading period of 3-4 weeks - and have stayed down. It's a little bit of magic, and not expensive.

I'll PM you a useful site.


----------



## Kayfamily (22 April 2010)

Thanks Brucea that would be great


----------



## Donkeymad (23 April 2010)

Please do NOT exercise whilst he is/may be suffering from laminitis. Exercise whilst free of lami is good, but during - never.


----------



## brucea (23 April 2010)

Absolutely Donkeymad - should never excecise a lami when they are in an acute laminitic attack. 

But once they are walking around their stable off their own bat, then start with round the block, then 50 yards then 100 - very gently building it up. Exercise is important for them. 

That's a seriously cute donklet in your siggy! We have donks next door to us and they provide a source of gut-liquifying terror to our three!

Thay ware in quite lush grass, but they seem to cope. How many donks do you know that get laminitis? I don;t know many donks, so have not seen any lami-donks?


----------



## happy_talk (23 April 2010)

Llewelyn said:



			Fructans in stressed grass are now proven NOT to be responsible for causing laminitis -  it is the weeks/months/years of overfeeding that cause an attack.  The fat in the crest/body/quarters is not inactive, it secretes a hormone, which in turn causes inflammation, which affects the lamellae of the hoof.  There you have it - the fat causes laminitis.
		
Click to expand...

Where did you get this information from!?! This is NOT true. There is no evidence to say that fructans do not cause laminitis, this theory has most definitely not been disproved!!
Obesity can increase the risk of laminitis- but if it was ONLY due to obesity why are there many fat ponies with no laminitis and skinny ponies still developing laminitis!?!?

OP- seek advice from the laminitis clinic/ trust or an independent source such as the BHS.


----------



## TGM (23 April 2010)

Llewelyn said:



			Fructans in stressed grass are now proven NOT to be responsible for causing laminitis -  it is the weeks/months/years of overfeeding that cause an attack.  The fat in the crest/body/quarters is not inactive, it secretes a hormone, which in turn causes inflammation, which affects the lamellae of the hoof.  There you have it - the fat causes laminitis.

So stressed grass is not the cause, and this is according to the very latest research, merely the final few calories that can tip the balance and trigger laminitis - fructans are no more evil than any other form of calorie!
		
Click to expand...

Llewelyn, can you give a link to this research please?  I have seen the stuff about long term obesity making animals more susceptible to laminitis, but was still under the impression that a high sugar/starch diet was more likely to tip the susceptible animal into a laminitic state, than a diet where the calories were obtained mainly from fibre.


----------



## happy_talk (23 April 2010)

Also- a bit of further info: fructans accumulate during the day when the grass is able to photosynthesise. fructans are energy storage for grass. Under "normal" conditions, at night the grass grows via respiration and uses the fructans/ storage sugars to grow. The problem and confusion comes with spring and autumn, when the day is warm enough for the grass to store lots of sugar during the day but the temperature at night is too low for respiration, therefore the sugars accumulated during the day have not been utilised during the night, leading to a high and potentially dangerous level of sugars in grasses during the morning. Therefore saying morning or afternoon turn out is safest is certainly not a fixed rule and depends on the weather/temperature!!


----------



## stormybracken (23 April 2010)

Although exercise is very important please only exercise your pony on surfaces he is comfortable on!

Good luck, sounds as though you're doing everything you can.


----------



## teddyt (23 April 2010)

OP- you need to get the vet. Your pony could have laminitis now- there are various severities and being fat with bruised feet and sign of lameness are all indications that laminitis is a strong possibility. You just cant guess that its down to the recent trimming and shoes, with no underlying problem. The hammering on of the shoes could have made the laminitis worse, drawing your attention to it because of the lameness. 

You really do need to get the vet. You must NOT work the pony if it is laminitis. And currently you dont know if it is or isnt. To avoid the pony getting worse you need a professional assessment.


----------



## brucea (23 April 2010)

That woman is following me around...TeddyT...she';s stalking me 

She's absolutely right - If you haven't had the vet then you should get him reviewed.


----------



## teddyt (23 April 2010)

brucea said:



			That woman is following me around...TeddyT...she';s stalking me 

Click to expand...

 I normally stalk donkeymad. Or she stalks me. Depending on who gets to a thread first!


----------



## Donkeymad (24 April 2010)

I know teddyt. I get ready to answer a thread and often you have beaten me with a fantastic eply.

brucea, I have six donkeys. One has had two laminitis episodes, both caused by stress. They do tend to get it very commonly. I'm actually surprised you have come across so few.

If I start her on MagOx would it help, alongside her regime, to help keep another attack at bay? If so, where is the best place to buy and what dosage? She is currently 145Kg.


----------



## brucea (24 April 2010)

Things I found with MagOx... 

- Loss of large firm crests 
- Reduction of fatty pads in croup shoulders, above eyes 
- Reduction in swolen sheath 
- Better hoof quality overall 
- Changes in coat colour 
- Very significant changes in mane texture - from wiry to silky 
- More "lustre" in coat 
- Less very mucky eyes 

Now we have also moved to the MBP based diet in the same period, so maybe that was not all down to the MagOx, but certainly the changes to coat and crests happened within 2 months after the MagOx.

Will it prevent laminitis? I would hate to make that claim - Magnesium is in a lot of the laminitis specific supplements, so it may have a preventative role. I noticed a big improvement in my laminitics on it.

Animal Health Trust research gives a recommended RDA of 25g per day, particularly if the diet is high in calcium. Supplementation of magnesium in a _deficient _horse will have a huge effect on its wellbeing. 

Magnesium plays an important part in nerve and muscle function, and horses deficient in this important element can show signs of nervousness, wariness, excitability, and muscle tremors. This gives magnesium its reputation for having a calming influence on equines - however  Magnesium in itself is not a "calmer", a horse that is not deficient in magnesium will not be "calmed" by being given more! 

Magnesium is also known to play an important part in reducing equine obesity, and can lessen the risk of laminitis in animals prone to it during periods of strong spring grass growth. _*But I have to say the only "safe" grass for laminitics is the imaginary kind.*_

When a horse with obvious signs of metabolic issues such as a fat pads on rump and shoulders and a cresty neck are fed magnesium, the crest and fat pads may start to dissappear, note that it will take about 3-4 weeks before an effect is noticeable.

I usualy keep a stock and sell it to folks locally for £9 a kg but am currently out of it and waiting for another 25Kg from the suppliers. 

Best place is Jackie Taylor at Metabolic Horse - can do next day. Also Jackie has information abotu it on her site


----------



## Donkeymad (24 April 2010)

Thankyou Brucea. I appreciate that no supplement can prevent lamintitis, just thought that maybe anything that may aid in a regulated anti-lami regime, might be helpful. I have to say, if this mare were any more laid back, she would fall over!!


----------



## brucea (26 April 2010)

Mine too! But he wasn't always that way.




			Magnesium plays an important part in nerve and muscle function, and horses deficient in this important element can show signs of nervousness, wariness, excitability, and muscle tremors. This gives magnesium its reputation for having a calming influence on equines - however Magnesium in itself is not a "calmer", a horse that is not deficient in magnesium will not be "calmed" by being given more!
		
Click to expand...

This is something though that i find annoying - the feed/tack shops are full of expensive magnesium based calmers. It may be the case that they get their reputation for working becuase many horses in the UK are mag deficient.

But soemof them even use Calcined magnesite -and I saw one at £15 for about 750 gr and the main ingredient was CalMag
 It costs about 50P a Kg!!!!

They'd be far better off just getting a Kg of heavy MGO for about £10 and trying that.

So if the calmer works - your horse is magnesium deficient. It's not really a calmer!


----------



## lillith (26 April 2010)

any links to that research on long term obesity being more of an issue than current fructan levels?


----------

