# Advice.



## Nakita (5 February 2010)

Hi just looking for some advice ...
I own a 16.2 Irish Draugh x TB mare I think she is coming up on 15 this year ... need to double check her passport to be 100% it could be 14! 
I was wondering if there is any way you can tell if she has had a foal before? 
If she is healthy - is 15 too old for her to have her first foal if she has never had one? 

Thanks x


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## Holly831 (5 February 2010)

15 Isn't too old (optimum I think is beteen 5 and 12) but she may just be a bit harder to get in foal.

If you have her checked prior to breeding I think a vet would be able to give you an indication if she has foaled before.

Good Luck!


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## JanetGeorge (5 February 2010)

Is she passported with IDHS (GB) - if so, let me know her registered name and I can look her up and see if she's had any progeny registered.  Otherwise, look at her teats - if they are slightly lumpy, one bigger than the other, and/or a bit of sagginess in the bag itself, then she MIGHT have.

15 isn't too old but older maidens DO tend to have problems with uterine clearance.  She'll need to go to a GOOD stud/AI centre where she can be vigorously managed to ensure she doesn't retain fluid.


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## Nakita (5 February 2010)

Thank you 
	
	
		
		
	


	




The vet is coming up in a couple of weeks to examine her but now that you have mentioned it there is slight sagginess in the bag itself also she has a pot belly that no matter how fit she gets she always keeps that kind of slightly dropped stomach - it could just be her shape but I thought that may be because she has previously had a foal?
No she isn't passported with them but thank you.

I may not even be going through with it if the vet doesn't feel she is up to it but I have been looking at stallions and I really don't know what would compliment her ...
Like I said she is Irish Draught x TB, middleweight and quite long in the back/neck etc any ideas the type of stallion to compliment her?!

Oh sorry another question! Lol. What is best considering her age A.I or natural?

Thanks!


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## Eothain (6 February 2010)

You need a thoroughbred on her. A real good quality thoroughbred that has, what I like to call, proper stock. Jumpers/eventers etc. There's a stallion here in Ireland called Watermill Swatch. From what I've seen of his youngstock, he's gonna be a huge improver of mares. He might even be the horse to re-ignite the Irish breed. He stands at Kylemore Stud and I think they have a licence to export semen.

www.kylemorestud.com

Watermill Swatch is the only thoroughbred stallion ever to come through the 70 day KWPN Stallion test successfully. He is approved by the IHB and KWPN. He competed at dressage in Holland and won the Croker Cup at the Dublin Horse Show in 2008 which is an in-hand showing class for Approved Thoroughbred Stallions and a rather big deal. The French judge lamented about how they have no thoroughbred stallion of such quality available to Sport Horse breeders in France.

He's gonna be a huge deal! His stock have sold for up to 12,000 euros at public auction here in Ireland.

The reason I say to use a tb like Watermill Swatch on your mare is because generally, mares with close RID breeding need at least 2 crosses of of good blood stallions before producing an animal that is relevant to modern sport.

If you were lucky enough to get a filly by him and retain it for breeding, you'd have far more options available to you if you're trying to breed proper performance stock


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## Simsar (7 February 2010)

Eothain,  pinching the post slighly 
	
	
		
		
	


	




, thank you for the link he is very very nice.


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## Eothain (7 February 2010)

I did too didn't I! Oopsie sorry about that


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## Simsar (7 February 2010)

No No you didn't they wanted advise and you gave, but I was just interested in the stallion and felt like I was nicking post.


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## Eothain (8 February 2010)

In that case ... Happy days!


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## magic104 (8 February 2010)

Interesting breeding, Jukebox sired Nickel King who had success as an event stallion, siring King William.  The sire Mytens appears as a sire of Eventing &amp; Show Jumpers, so he has some decent TB breeding there.  His own performance record is impressive;
NOTE OF STALLIONS PERFORMANCE:
Watermill Swatch xx is the first TB to ever undergo the 70 day test in
Ermelo, Holland. He finished with excellent results and was approved. He is a big, blood scopey stallion wit a most kind and c-operative character. He is beautiful and has 3 wonderful paces with lots of expression. He has competed as a dressage horse and as a showjumper in Holland following a successful racing career in which he was a winner and placed several times.

It was not many months ago that a post suggested the TB had had its day in Sporthorse breeding...


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## Eothain (9 February 2010)

There will always be a place for thoroughbreds in sport horse breeding. However, they have to be performers themselves. Its not good enough any more to be using flat-bred horses to get show jumpers. I mean even NH horses are bred from stayers so the modern thoroughbred horse has got to be able to hold his own in open competition. They give more blood than any other breed, so for horses with draughty breeding, they are a necessity.

I can see it in this country, with Irish Draught breeding so prevalent in the Irish Sport Horse broodmare herd, that in order to maximise the influence of good sports stallions, a thoroughbred cross is required after the Draught blood. Then if you have a filly from that mating; the person who eventually breeds from her will have more available options to use the likes of a Luidam, Russel, Arko, Peppermill, Je t'Aime Flamenco etc. As these horses will not have to be 'improver' stallions, instead they're moving the genes along.

Then it becomes an issue of choosing stallions that will retain enough blood while having substance also. That's not taking into consideration the confirmation necessities either by the way! Unfortunately there's no set formula!

At least that's my take on the matter at hand.


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## Simsar (9 February 2010)

Well said apart from the foreign bit!!!  LOL!


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## Eothain (9 February 2010)

Not foreign. Kinda ... neighbourly!


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## hilly (11 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
He stands at Kylemore Stud and I think they have a licence to export semen.

www.kylemorestud.com

Watermill Swatch is the only thoroughbred stallion ever to come through the 70 day KWPN Stallion test successfully. He is approved by the IHB and KWPN. He competed at dressage in Holland and won the Croker Cup at the Dublin Horse Show in 2008 which is an in-hand showing class for Approved Thoroughbred Stallions and a rather big deal. The French judge lamented about how they have no thoroughbred stallion of such quality available to Sport Horse breeders in France.

He's gonna be a huge deal! His stock have sold for up to 12,000 euros at public auction here in Ireland.



[/ QUOTE ]

A big WS fan here but just to give his stablemate, Womanizer credit for siring the 12,000 foal at the Cavan Elite sales; Swatch's highest-priced foal sold there for 5k.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Bernard Le Courtois was indeed eloquent in his praise for Swatch after judging him at Dublin and there were several French and English mares over for covering last year by Swatch so that solved the export license issue.

Getting back to the OP's query. What are you hoping to breed? It sounds like a 'keeper' foal? I'd look for a short-coupled stallion with a good temperament, particularly if it's your first experience breeding foals. If you weigh it up, you're often better to go look amongst the hundreds of horses already out there, rather than breed but if this is a keeper foal and you've weighed up all the pros &amp; cons, plus expense entailed, good luck - it can be very exciting breeding a replacement from a favourite.


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## Eothain (12 February 2010)

It was the 2008 foal sales in Cavan that he got the big foal price. Maybe it wasn't 12,000 but not far off!

As for Womanizer ... What a horse!


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## druid (12 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
 As for Womanizer ... What a horse!  

[/ QUOTE ] 

Another one with a questionable temperament - although his perfromance can't be faulted


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## druid (12 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
He stands at Kylemore Stud and I think they have a licence to export semen.


[/ QUOTE ]

To my knowledge there is no where in Ireland that meets the EU regs. to export semen. Most stallions available outside of Ireland go to the UK or continent for collection over winter and are offered frozen outside of Ireland. However, there is certainly "under the radar" shipping of chilled semen out fo Ireland.


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## Eothain (15 February 2010)

Womanizer has a tremendous temperament. I know he can skip and buck a bit in the ring but I like that. He still focuses on the job at hand which is most important. I mean to say his playfulness amounts to a questionable temperament is like saying that the all conquering Cumano has a questionable temperament!
As for export licenses, Robert Splaine must surely have one as more foals were born by Coolcorron Cool Diamond in France in 2004 than in Ireland!!!


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## hilly (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
It was the 2008 foal sales in Cavan that he got the big foal price. Maybe it wasn't 12,000 but not far off!


[/ QUOTE ]

OP, sorry for deviating, particularly as just saw from another post, that you're based in Scotland so perhaps would be best  to look for something closer to home or more readily AI-available.   
	
	
		
		
	


	





However, it  _was_  the 2008 Elite Foal sales in Cavan that those prices were made - 12k for a Womanizer x Corland and 5k for a Watermill Swatch x Landadel - it's all on the Kylemore website. 

One WS colt sold at  Cavan 2009 autumn foal sale to Oli Townend for 2,200 - more a reflection on how prices nose-dived than on the foal but compared to others, *lucky* to get that price.


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## Eothain (15 February 2010)

In that case, I hold my hands up and stand corrected!

...

...

... Still the best thoroughbred for sport horses in Ireland though!


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## hilly (16 February 2010)

You may put your hands down.. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Not being pedantic but you know how the horse world goes, rumours become facts and 'I heard..' becomes gospel.

The best? Oh my. I am a huge WS fan and have 2 in foal to him but with the greatest of respect to this lovely horse and his equally nice connections, he and his progeny have a few years to go before he can claim that title. For now, "The most exciting young TB stallion prospect" - definitely.

Master Imp has left a huge gap in the TB sires market - I honestly can't think of many other proven TBs to rival him at the moment. Cult Hero and Rich Rebel have retired too. Ghareeb and Frankfort Boy (seriously under the radar) are two reliables .. there's a couple of promising young horses, headed by WS but breeders opting for TB sires are not spoilt for choice.

I think Presenting should be ..presented .. to sporthorse breeders for a year.


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## Eothain (16 February 2010)

That'd be pretty cool. I can't see it happening though.

What about French Buffet? He's a nice sort. I'm thinking of using him on my Ojasper x Flagmount King mare this year. I'd use Watermill on her but I've a Classic Vision x Duca Di Busted mare going to him and I don't like using the same stallion on multiple mares for the sole reason that I find it a bit boring! It wouldn't take a lot to convince me to use him twice though!!!

I'm not really a fan of Cult Hero or Rich Rebel or Ghareeb for that matter. I think they're over hyped and produced less than they're given credit for. I just don't see the attraction.

I'm a big fan of Well Chosen though. The Classic Vision mare is in foal to him. He gets lovely stock and is a beautiful horse in his own right.

Since the loss of Master Imp, Mister Lord and Great Hussar, I think there's only 9 thoroughbred stallions that Sport Horse breeders in Ireland have to choose from. Watermill Swatch, French Buffet, Painters Row, Golden Lariat, Well Chosen, Poltarf, Seabrook and a little known stallion approved on the Elite Thoroughbred Register called Musical Pursuit.

If I'm looking through a sales catelogue and see horses with thoroughbred blood other than any of those 12, I just keep going past. They're like my Round Table Of Thoroughbred Stallions


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## hilly (3 April 2010)

Aha, thought there  was a previous post about Presenting! 

It would be a hypothetical dream cross - Presenting and a group of elite Irish mares with any resultant fillies bringing quality and substance back into the herd.

One can dream. Or else buy a Presenting filly.

I like French Buffet, he's proved as tough as teak throughout his competition career and his pedigree, with Pardal 4 x4 so close-up on his dam's side, is as close as Irish breeder's can get to Stan The Man's male tail line.

I have two in foal to Swatch and can't wait to see what he produces. One is a carbon copy of her sire, Clover Hill,  while the other is a rangier, half-bred type so will be interesting to see how Swatch refines two very traditional types. The Clover Hill mare is anything but boring with what she produces, colour-wise everything from black to chestnut with four perfect stockings but precious few fillies. Here's hoping.

Her daughter qualified for Dublin as a 3 & 4yo; placed in the Discovery Final top ten when Oldtown Katie won and has bred a stream of youngsters by warmblood sires - Kannan, OBOS Quality, Chippison and now Mermus R. When her owner puts her in foal to a TB and the end result is a filly, I will beat  a path to his door quicker than a gold digger in a nightclub full of drunk Premiership footballers.

Cult Hero, Rich Rebel and Ghareeb consistently produced good-looking horses that go on to event, in Rich Rebel's case all the way to the Olympics. I don't see them as hyped because their owners have never claimed they will sire world-class showjumpers but they do exactly what they say on the tin in all other respects and their progeny are very popular with the eventing agents.

Hopefully, Cult Hero will get a reprieve from retirement if his latest fertility treatment works; his progeny had several placings at Gatcombe last week including The Deputy, another former All Ireland show champion.

Master Imp has left such a void particularly after Ringwood Magister's big win in America last week and there just might be a young pretender amongst his final crop this year.

Fill me on why you would choose Great Hussar as a top TB? With his pedigree (4x4x5x5 to Fair Trial) and lots of Diamond Lad wives literally on his doorstep, I often wondered why he hadn't produced more? Primo Pageant was another with a great eventing pedigree and a hinterland of Diamond Lad and Clover Hill mares. A Clover Hill half-sister to my first broodie (half-sister to a Dublin Grade E champion and grand-dam to Rich Fellers' Shannondale Dot Com) produced one of Great Hussar's better showjumpers but genuinely can't think of many more.

I like some of those young stallions but would like to see their progeny under saddle first before rating them with the handful of serving senior lights. Orbis is my favourite by a country mile of the Mr Prospector sires, (Golden Lariat and Emperor Augustus have youngstock in the pipeline) and good to see his Poppy Coin win at Gatcombe last week too. Gets fantastic-looking horses and if I was in the market for a replacement mare, there is a certain Orbis cross that would be top of my list. Or a Kiltealy Spring mare.

Also Power Blade is a good commerical choice - sired Jemma Kirk's European gold medallist, Wexford, and the Dublin supreme champion hunter, Woodfield Indo - and Loughehoe Guy too.

Would like those TBs in contemporary pedigrees- otherwise, the all-time greats I would look for in back pedigrees: Carnival Night, Final Problem, Bahrain, Water Serpent, Imperius, Middle Temple, Sky Boy, Golden Years, Coevers, Highland Flight, Nordyls and Ozymandias. 

Not all prophets in their own time either!


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## maestro (3 April 2010)

TB is a good reliable cross to go with with ID/TB and without seeing your mare the choice of stallions in England is quite good.  There is my own Weston Justice who is advanced and graded, he has some corking ID/TB crosses coming under saddle at the moment, showing real elasticity and jump.  SallyF at Groomsbridge stud has some well bred TB with the bloodlines to do the job.  Revolution is another one who might not be flashy but is producing some competitive stock.  Also look on SHBGB website for more.
As your mare is a little older and may have had a foal a good repro vet is most important as all the dreaming and money in the world comes to nothing if using AI and the vet is not upto speed.
Good luck and keep asking its lovely to have informative information coming on the forum.


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