# Is anyone else not entirely convinced by the Horse Hoarders plight?



## djlynwood (11 January 2013)

Im totally amazed at the response generated in my area after this programme was aired.

Numerous people in my local area have set up accounts and asking for clothes, food etc. 

We have a room at out yard which is packed to the brim with donations including a gas camping stove and generator.

Please dont think that Im not a charitable person, Im actually impressed that people have massed together to do this in this day and age with things how they are.

I wonder how many will still be doing this in a years time for him. I dont know what it is but something does not sit quite right with me.


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## competitiondiva (11 January 2013)

Have to say I didn't watch it, but the fact he had horses removed which a vet said was suffering, and he pleaded guilty to causing suffering on 6 counts, my sympathy wanes a little. OK he needs help, but his animal maintenance/care needs addressing which only a court can do. Glad it's now all in hand though, for him and the horses.


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## WelshD (11 January 2013)

If people want to donate I guess they will

My point of view is that we dont actually know that he doesn't have anything, he could have all these things in that house somewhere!

I'd think it best to concentrate on the horses. The chaps income should recover as the horse numbers decrease 

I really think any stuff donated will just end up in piles in the house

I don't doubt the generosity of lots of people but they aren't going to be able to change him

Remember Mr Trebus? He had overwhelming public support but was ungrateful to people for meddling in his affairs 

The chap would appear to own a potentially nice house with land that has value, no reason that can't be sold at the end if the day

If he were truely destitute i would feel differently 

I have a mother with mental illness so I know it's not straightforward before anyone leaps on me!


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## Shadow the Reindeer (11 January 2013)

I would have thought, electric, gas, and water would be high up on his list.. a very 'big' clear out as well..


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## Ibblebibble (11 January 2013)

how many people who donate or raise money for children in need, comic relief , sports relief and all the others actually do anything other than at those specific times. We tend to pay attention when it's foremost in our minds (in our faces on TV), once the publicity dies most people move on to the next cause. The same will happen with clywd I'm sure, the 'novelty' will wear off and the next hard luck case will be thrust in our faces and some will feel moved enough to motivate others into action
Before Christmas a pub landlord disappeared with the locals saving fund that they had been putting into every week, 30k was missing and after the news went nationwide people donated money and the fund was replenished within a week, one annonymous donor apparently gave 10k.Some people feel good for helping other people, personal choice as to who they feel deserves their help, some will feel that Clywd does and others won't.


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## Coldfeet! (11 January 2013)

I saw an ad on preloved yesterday asking for donations, Dont get me wrong I feel bad for all concerned but what aggreived me was that the advertiser was putting it across that poor michelle has 22 or so of her own horses and helps the gent, the ad was asking for donations of rugs/headcollars etc well I am sorry but it is her choice to have 20 add horses of her own and she runs livery, she isnt a charity and she choses to own this many horses if their needs cannot be met then they need to find new homes, I think she is great to be helping out but I think the old chap is stuck in his ways and no amount of "help" will fundamentally change him, I just wish he had a better standard of living and I feel he does really care about the horses going without himself to feed them. Messy situation all round.


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## webble (11 January 2013)

djlynwood said:



			Im totally amazed at the response generated in my area after this programme was aired.

Numerous people in my local area have set up accounts and asking for clothes, food etc. 

We have a room at out yard which is packed to the brim with donations including a gas camping stove and generator.

Please dont think that Im not a charitable person, Im actually impressed that people have massed together to do this in this day and age with things how they are.

I wonder how many will still be doing this in a years time for him. I dont know what it is but something does not sit quite right with me.
		
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Mine too and there are threads running on local forums ot help him. I have mixed feelings on the subject personally. Are you local to him too djlynwood?


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## Flame_ (11 January 2013)

I'm convinced the world's gone nuts. Maybe if I start breeding random horses I can't afford and have no where to keep people will send me money?


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## ISHmad (11 January 2013)

Have read on FB this morning that a Paypal account has been set up via a non registered charity, because the registered Charity which Michelle has got apparently hasn't got a Paypal account. Like it takes long to set one up?

The donations will be used for Clwyd to 'KEEP HIS HORSES'. Eh? I'm horrified by this as thought the whole idea was they were being handled and sold to cover the cost of livery and associated horse keeping costs.

If he still wanted contact with horses he could help Michelle. 

Up until I read that this morning I was sympathetic, now I'm not comfortable at all. And why would people send cash to an unregistered charity?


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## micki (11 January 2013)

I didnt see the program, only read what people have written on forums about it. I feel for him that he can't afford to look after the horses that he has properly as it sounds like he does love them but sometimes when you love an animal you have to sell it to do the best for it. It sounds like that is what he should be doing with what he has and just keep a few so he can afford to keep them properly. I dont expect other people to pay out to keep mine and that it is what is happening there now with him.


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## djlynwood (11 January 2013)

webble said:



			Mine too and there are threads running on local forums ot help him. I have mixed feelings on the subject personally. Are you local to him too djlynwood?
		
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Im not local, on the Wirral but not too far from Wrexham where he is. 

I am shocked to hear about FB pages being set up for paypal donations to an unregistered charity.

Everyone here is going Clwyd crazy and Im starting to be classed as an outcast if I say anything against it.

Glad to know Im not the only one.


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## russianhorse (11 January 2013)

WelshD - that isn't his house - its an abandoned farm house he found to squat in, so no money value for him in that property


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## webble (11 January 2013)

djlynwood said:



			Im not local, on the Wirral but not too far from Wrexham where he is. 

I am shocked to hear about FB pages being set up for paypal donations to an unregistered charity.

Everyone here is going Clwyd crazy and Im starting to be classed as an outcast if I say anything against it.

Glad to know Im not the only one.
		
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Oooo me too, well Ellesmere Port so the bottom end. Yes I know excatly what you mean


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## ISHmad (11 January 2013)

Copied from the FB Page. See comment underneath re keeping the horses

t is with great pleasure and gratitude that Jaden Cornelious Fundraising has offered very kindly to accept Paypal donations for and on behalf of the Horse and Owner Help Center registered address:

18 FRIARSMEWS
BANGOR-ON- DEE 
WREXHAM 
WALES 
LL13 0AX 


The Horse and Owner Help Centre (registered company number 08306087) was founded and is run by Michelle Crowther. Its mission is to distribute assistance and financial help to horses and their owners such as Clwyd Davies and his equines.

Q&A:

Q: Who is JC Fundraising?

A: JCF is an independent group of volunteers who raise funds for charities, organisations and individuals in need

Q: Why not use the Horse and Owner Help Centre Paypal account?

A: As of yet a Paypal account has not been set up but this is in hand. Many people have requested a Paypal facility so in the interim JCF will collect any Paypal donations and a cheque will then be forwarded to the Horse and Owner Help Centre.

Q: Will Clwyd (or any other horse owner) get the funds personally?

A: All funds raised by way of Paypal donations through JCF will directly benefit Clwyds horses and others in the same situation as Clwyd. The owners will not personally gain from the money raised but they will be reassured that every effort will be given to help and support by way of providing feed, vets bills and other medical supplies etc for as long as the money is available.

Q: How can you donate?

A: Via the our Causes page on the JC Fundraising website www.jcfundraisi*ng.com/*our-causes scroll down to the photo of Clwyd and his horse.
Our Causes - Jaden Cornelious Fundraising
2 hours ago*·**·*Like*·*Share*·*Report
33 people like this.
Support for Clwyd Davies and his horses
Amazingly kind offer am off to make my donation 
2 hours ago*·*Like*·*2
Support for Clwyd Davies and his horses
Can i just say...no one has to make a donation but long term care and funding is needed to provide Clwyd to be able to keep his horses, Michelle is building a good team around her to enable her to give support and aid to anyone suffering from poverty and hardship and your support is needed not just in the short term but for long term as well. For me personally i want to learn about that bond that Clwyd has with his horses, it was plain to see he has something very special So my financial support is set in stone now and long may it continue and lets all hope that channel 4 bring us a program about Clwyd and his lovely horses and THAT special bond  (debs) x


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## djlynwood (11 January 2013)

The person on the Wirral who is organising and spreading the word has spoken to Michelle who told her that she needs to raise £400 to be able to register for charity status.

Does anyone know if you do need to pay this much to register as a charity?


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## s4sugar (11 January 2013)

no one has to make a donation but long term care and funding is needed to provide Clwyd to be able to keep his horses
		
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OK just why does he "need" to keep his horses?

 I could understand if money was to go towards gelding the entires but considering his age most of those horses can be expected to outlive him needing future rehoming and any reasonable person would be cutting back numbers (or not getting into his situation). I can think of far more effective uses for donations.


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## Goldenstar (11 January 2013)

Flame_ said:



			I'm convinced the world's gone nuts. Maybe if I start breeding random horses I can't afford and have no where to keep people will send me money? 

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Worth a try but I would not advise it I'll help out and donate you some old freezers a cooker an old car and other assorted junk for your garden.


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## horsesatemymoney (11 January 2013)

if I had a spare tenner to donate, I'd rather give it to a kid's cancer charity. I'm not denying this guy needs some help, but I think it's via a gp , not monetary donations. one of the horses is up for 500 pounds not a lot and might not sell, but if he sells 20 that's 10k! I wonder if some people want to help because they see it as doing something against the rspca ? its very sad allround but I don't think giving him money to carry on will help....he needs the help and support of professional mental health workers or likely is he'll do this again in the future....he's a hoarder .


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## djlynwood (11 January 2013)

horsesatemychristmasmoney said:



			if I had a spare tenner to donate, I'd rather give it to a kid's cancer charity. I'm not denying this guy needs some help, but I think it's via a gp , not monetary donations. one of the horses is up for 500 pounds not a lot and might not sell, but if he sells 20 that's 10k! I wonder if some people want to help because they see it as doing something against the rspca ? its very sad allround but I don't think giving him money to carry on will help....he needs the help and support of professional mental health workers or likely is he'll do this again in the future....he's a hoarder .
		
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Like this post. Totally agree.


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## WelshD (11 January 2013)

Thanks for clarifying that Russianhorse.

I think that actually makes me feel worse though! So he is a squatter living on someone else's land and accumulating horses

I can imagine the replies if someone posted on here to say they own a potentially valuable place that a squatter is living in!


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## Cortez (11 January 2013)

I see people saying "he's a hoarder" a lot, but actually I just think he's a breeder who has not been able or inclined to sell his horses. Various people have come on here saying they have purchased from him in the past - is it not just possible that with the numbers he has not been able to handle the young horses sufficiently to get them saleable? And the situation has spiralled from there. It is very easy to get out of control numbers wise, especially with gelding, worming, etc. The woman is helping him by handling the horses and getting them sold. The comment about him keeping the horses came from a member of the public, not from anyone associated with the operation.


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## Archangel (11 January 2013)

There is no fee for setting up a charity in fact if the annual income is under £5k a year you can still be a charity but registered with HMRC rather than the charity commission.  However, yoiu will still need a governing document, charitable object(s), trustees so there is a cost involved in getting it all together, maybe she just picked £400 as a guesstimate.

I do know someone who lives like Clwyd. He sort of semi dosses in one of his brother's barns (my old feed room in fact).  He doesn't have running water or a toilet/washing facilities.  He could very easily sort it out but chooses not to.  He is not mentally ill, he just chooses to opt out of life a bit.  I think he lives in a pig sty but I would say he is happier and more relaxed than many people I know!


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## ISHmad (11 January 2013)

Cortez you are wrong there. The comment about him keeping the horses came from one of the Admins on that site!


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## Star_Chaser (11 January 2013)

I have to be honest at first I thought the best way to help this situation was to see about rehoming one of his horses I am looking and a youngster to be broken or foal or one of the old girls needing retirement would suit me down to the ground.  

There are 20+ still with Clywd but none of these appear to still require rehoming and my attempts to find out have resulted in posts asking for details of those needing rehoming being removed. Michelle does have other horses but I do think it a little misleading that the generosity being shown by people is NOT clearly being used for horses that are in dire need of assistance within Clywds own herd but instead unless clearly marked is going to Michelle's rescue.

What I will not do is support financially or otherwise a breeder for anything dogs, cats, horses etc and at the end of the day if Clywd is in a more manageable situation with his herd and is retaining for breeding purposes what he has left then I am afraid for me beyond normal purchase of a horse I will not be handing over any cash.  I would not pay to support anyone elses horse habit but I am happy to support a rescue (which I already do elsewhere).  I do feel for Clywd he has obviously got a problem but it is not one that should be encouraged.

I did like the look of some of the horses and a few people have posted info of some of theirs none of which are for sale.  He obviously breeds some nice stock and I hope that the support he is receiving allows him to have a more positive future.


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## Star_Chaser (11 January 2013)

Cortez said:



			I see people saying "he's a hoarder" a lot, but actually I just think he's a breeder who has not been able or inclined to sell his horses. Various people have come on here saying they have purchased from him in the past - is it not just possible that with the numbers he has not been able to handle the young horses sufficiently to get them saleable? And the situation has spiralled from there. It is very easy to get out of control numbers wise, especially with gelding, worming, etc. The woman is helping him by handling the horses and getting them sold. The comment about him keeping the horses came from a member of the public, not from anyone associated with the operation.
		
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Agree with this. Good post although it was admin that told me that he was retaining his current level of stock.  The only one available for sale is the one that Michelle originally purchased from him herself.


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## FionaM12 (11 January 2013)

This is the power of television and the celebrity culture. 

If someone had said they or a friend lived on a squalid squat full of junk and hazards, indiscriminately bred unwormed semi-feral horses which they sell from time to time to fund the operation and needed financial help can you imagine the response a week ago? Especially here? 

One short very biased film (giving very few facts) on prime-time tv and the chap's a celebrity. I did watch the film and the emotional effect of it worked on me for a moment too. Yes I feel sorry for Clwyd, who looks like a rather lost soul with probable mental health issues. But he's a hoarder (whether or not he was once a reputable breeder) whose horses are at risk and not properly cared for.


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## Patterdale (11 January 2013)

Rebelrebel totally agree with that last statement (can't quote though).
My dads great uncle lived like that, just 'opting out' a bit as you put it. He was totally happy and relaxed with life. 
Can't speculate on Clwyd's mental state as I don't know him but who's to say he's not choosing this lifestyle himself?
The bath for instance, he probably preferred to do it the eccentric way. I'm sure that Michelle would have let him use her shower or something if he'd wanted!


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## Star_Chaser (11 January 2013)

Have to admit I loved that bath set up!  My friends an artist and lives a bit of a hobo lifestyle and I know he would love that bath!


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## Patterdale (11 January 2013)

Fiona agree with that sadly.
The film did upset me but I have a real weakness for lonely people and those with mental health issues. I just felt so desperately sorry for him. 

There must be thousands of other people living like this and it makes me very sad. 
But I certainly won't be sending money to fund his horse habit. 

Michelle may be his guardian angel, but may not. My husbands first comment when she was selling his horses etc 'Crikey, she's no fool. Bet she won't be getting misty eyed when she's totting up the livery bill.'

But then again he's a cynic!


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## Pipkin (11 January 2013)

This is from someone who lives literally minutes away and has known him all their life

RE: Horse Hoarder TV Show -
Something that wasn't tackled on the programme -
they're not short of cash/donations -
Michelle sells them for between 300-800 quid a pop!! (sometimes more!!) regularly posts all over facebook asking for free feed/rugs/bedding/farriery/hay/mucking out... etcetc... I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I'VE BEEN UP THERE when she started taking them to sell, as the advert said - HOMES WANTED FOR RESCUE HORSES - me being me jumped up to help, only to be told i'd have to pay £400 for a 13.2 dapple grey un handled & un registered (& of questionable parentage) 4yo stallion !! I even got roped into helping catch a traditional colt she'd sold but needed gelding while i was up there viewing!! I'm not saying he should/shouldn't have horses - I'm saying that its NOT rescue, its a business partnership between the two of them using peoples goodwill & kind hearts to make them pay over the current market value for (in the most part) poor quality, un-registered stock!! (thats what p's me off!)
(Yeah I'll get a load of abuse for this - But its the god honest truth - what reason have I to lie?!)


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## djlynwood (11 January 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Fiona agree with that sadly.


Michelle may be his guardian angel, but may not. My husbands first comment when she was selling his horses etc 'Crikey, she's no fool. Bet she won't be getting misty eyed when she's totting up the livery bill.'

But then again he's a cynic! 

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I can see where he is coming from though. Michelle strikes me as a woman who has her head screwed on.


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## horsesatemymoney (11 January 2013)

in the film clwyd himself mentioned 35 pound a week livery....did anyone else hear that?


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## Patterdale (11 January 2013)

Yeah that's how much she charges him, she knocks all the costs off the sale price so I wouldn't have thought he ends up with much, if anything. 
No wonder he's in no rush to move them on!


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## Equilibrium Ireland (11 January 2013)

I didn't watch but have gleaned enough from posts in various places. The horses need rehomed. That's it really. Why fund what he can't take care of because it makes it easier for him? Breeding needs to stop and the horses rehomed. 

This man needs to help himself but that's only if he wants to. He has that choice. If mentally he can't make choices for himself then he needs to be taken for help. However, the horses have no choices. So no, I also would not fund and charity that means he gets to keep his animals. How is that helping. The one clip I saw was of horses living in crap conditions. I'm not funding that crap. 

If any of you read COTH, why don't you hop on over to the Breeding section. If you have a spare day of reading catch up on the Jill Burnell thread. A breeder of very nice horses living in squalid conditions. She herself is living illegally in squalid conditions. Nobody in their right mind would give money to this woman to keep going. What they have done is set up a fundraiser to help the horses which are being confiscated. 4 so far. Also the money will be used to help mare owners get money back from Jill's shady business dealings. But not a cent of that money will be used to help that woman to keep her horses. No way and nobody would even think of donating. Check out the ratemyhorsepro website and see the pictures. 

Now if this man was going to give up his horses to be rehomed, then yes a charity to help the horses would be something I'd contribute to willingly. But letting people keep this situation going, nope no way. There's help and then there's enabling. I'm not enabling this person so the sad story continues. 

Terri


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## FionaM12 (11 January 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Rebelrebel totally agree with that last statement (can't quote though).
My dads great uncle lived like that, just 'opting out' a bit as you put it. He was totally happy and relaxed with life. 
Can't speculate on Clwyd's mental state as I don't know him but who's to say he's not choosing this lifestyle himself?
The bath for instance, he probably preferred to do it the eccentric way. I'm sure that Michelle would have let him use her shower or something if he'd wanted!
		
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I did wonder how much of the "outdoor bath" scene was for the cameras. Perhaps even the film-makers' idea? Nothing after all is quite what it seems on tv, almost everything's edited, contrived or set up.

I felt the bath scene was great entertainment, with Clwyd enjoying himself and acting up for his audience.

I think when we watch this type of thing, we have to remember we're being manipulated and being carefully shown only the "facts" the film-makers want us to see.


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## SnowPhony (11 January 2013)

Whilst I sympathise with his obvious mental health issues,I also felt the programme was a little one sided. 

Could have done with being longer to give a bit more of the story. Couldn't really make my mind up either way to be honest!


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## FionaM12 (11 January 2013)

TashyTinsel said:



			Whilst I sympathise with his obvious mental health issues,I also felt the programme was a little one sided.
		
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I would say a great deal more than "a little". I can't remember one person they spoke to which gave the other side of the story.


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## horsesatemymoney (11 January 2013)

patterdale glad I didn't dream that! nobody seems to have noticed that Michelle is not doing it completely out of the goodness of her heart ...she's actually charging livery....no wonder people cant find details of what is for sale!


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## Beausmate (11 January 2013)

I don't think he has mental health issues.  He seems to be a stubborn old man who has let his herd get out of hand and won't admit it (well, he'd be admitting he was wrong) and certainly won't do what anyone else tells him, he'll just dig his heels in further.  I also expect he may be enjoying his non-conforming lifestyle-two fingers up to society etc.  I doubt very much anyone will ever change him but if people want to hand over their hard-earned, that's their prerogative.  At least the horses will get something out of it.


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## Dry Rot (11 January 2013)

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this situation (and I'm not going there!), we can be sure of one thing; from here on in both Clwyd's and Michelle's activities will be under a microscope.

Personally, I would not wish that on my worst enemy!

Clwyd obviously cares deeply for his horses and why shouldn't he keep them (but, preferably not breed) for as long as he is able to care for them?

Assuming we are all horse lovers here, how many would be happy to have their horses forcibly removed from them, even though they could still care for them, because society had decided they'd got a bit dotty in their old age?

As for the prices being asked by Michelle for her horses, they do not seem out of line to those sought by the WHW in a similar case. To many, price equals value -- which can be very sad for the animal as I know to my cost.

As I read it, donations are being directed to a separate charity which specialises in supporting worthy causes, so there is no danger of them being frittered away by Clwyd or Michelle. But I am sure someone will be along in a moment to say it really ought to be given to real professional carers who will know exactly what to do with it, like the RSPCA. Apparently, they can't be scrutinised or criticised at all so that would be an end to the problem.


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## horsesatemymoney (11 January 2013)

but dryrot he can't care for them....can't worm them, geldthem and I bet they've not been vaccinated. there's an appeal on facebook for a 'fa rrier with a heart' so that tells me he cant care for them properly. I'd have no issues if he lived a reculsive lifestyle and cared properly for his horses but he can't and so now needs handouts.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (11 January 2013)

Yeah, handouts because he loves his horses. My oh my this is hypocritical. Shall we revisit the benefits thread where all people on benefits were scum of the earth, who cares you fell on hard times, you don't deserve anything that you love. But show this guy on TV and wow people have a heart. 

Terri


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## FabioandFreddy (11 January 2013)

Much as i feel a bit sorry for the guy, i'm sure if he has help this year, colts are all gelded etc. He'll still end up with at least one stallion to cover the mares next year which will lead to more colts and the vicious circle starts all over again. Hoarders will never stick to just a few animals unfortunately.


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## FionaM12 (11 January 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			Yeah, handouts because he loves his horses. My oh my this is hypocritical. Shall we revisit the benefits thread where all people on benefits were scum of the earth, who cares you fell on hard times, you don't deserve anything that you love. But show this guy on TV and wow people have a heart. 

Terri
		
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I agree. I do have sympathy with the man, but he has nowhere to keep horses and no funds for their care. Who knows when he'll be moved on from the land he squats on? What happens to his horses then?

As you say, people who keep a horse (never mind many!) which they clearly can't afford and allow to suffer as a consequence usually get little sympathy here. Neither do the travellers who squat on other peoples' land.

But hey, this man's a tv celebrity!


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## FionaM12 (11 January 2013)

horsesatemychristmasmoney said:



			but dryrot he can't care for them....can't worm them, geldthem and I bet they've not been vaccinated. there's an appeal on facebook for a 'fa rrier with a heart' so that tells me he cant care for them properly. I'd have no issues if he lived a reculsive lifestyle and cared properly for his horses but he can't and so now needs handouts.
		
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I'm guessing a "farrier with a heart" is one who will treat all his semi-feral horses' feet for free then?


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## russianhorse (11 January 2013)

I agree that he shouldn't be getting handouts and am pretty unsure why people are donating monies :/


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## horsesatemymoney (11 January 2013)

yep fiona I'm looking for one too


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## Patterdale (11 January 2013)

Haha yes, me too! My farrier charges EVERY TIME, the swine!


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## FionaM12 (11 January 2013)

The Facebook page is astonishing. No criticism of Clwyd allowed, all singing his praises as if he's a sort of horse guru. Some posts saying how much better cared for his horses are than conventional horse owners' horses. There's talk of fences on his squat so that he can keep his horses, and concern expressed that the large donations coming in mustn't effect his benefits.

He is fast becoming a folk hero.

The trouble with campaigns such as this which are based on an emotional reaction and sentiment is that they burn out quite quickly and may not address the long-term issues.


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## FionaM12 (11 January 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Haha yes, me too! My farrier charges EVERY TIME, the swine!
		
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Heartless, aren't they?


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## Baggybreeches (11 January 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Rebelrebel totally agree with that last statement (can't quote though).
My dads great uncle lived like that, just 'opting out' a bit as you put it. He was totally happy and relaxed with life. 
Can't speculate on Clwyd's mental state as I don't know him but who's to say he's not choosing this lifestyle himself?
The bath for instance, he probably preferred to do it the eccentric way. I'm sure that Michelle would have let him use her shower or something if he'd wanted!
		
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My mother lives a little like this too, she is intelligent, articulate and wealthy (as in has enough money to go and buy a small house outright!), yet she chooses to live in a static caravan behind her friend's indoor school. Lots of people who know of her but  don't know her ask me why she is there. I don't have the answer and I never will, I know one thing though, if my mother makes her choice nobody changes her mind. 

I didn't watch the show because it would not have been a balanced view, but from what I have heard the chap needs his psychological issues sorting out first and foremost.


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## djlynwood (11 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			The Facebook page is astonishing. No criticism of Clwyd allowed, all singing his praises as if he's a sort of horse guru. Some posts saying how much better cared for his horses are than conventional horse owners' horses. There's talk of fences on his squat so that he can keep his horses, and concern expressed that the large donations coming in mustn't effect his benefits.

He is fast becoming a folk hero.

.
		
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oh......my........lord!!!


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## YorksG (11 January 2013)

To those who are saying he is 'obviously mentaly ill'. There are two pieces of legislation which will be used to look at his mental state. The Mental Capacity Act and The Mental Health Act. For him to be 'treated' against his will, he will have to be shown to be suffering from 'Disease of the mind' and to be a danger to himself or others. For him to be deemed incapable of making decisions about specific parts of his life, he would have to be shown to be incapable of understanding the consequences of the decisions he is making. The law states that there is a presumption of capacity to make decisions, unless it can be demonstrated that there is a lack of capcity. Just because people make unwise decisions doesn't mean that they don't have the capacity to make the decision. Some people would think that I was unwise to pay for my horse to have new shoes, when my work shoes coud do with replacing!


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## FionaM12 (11 January 2013)

YorksG said:



			To those who are saying he is 'obviously mentaly ill'. There are two pieces of legislation which will be used to look at his mental state. The Mental Capacity Act and The Mental Health Act. For him to be 'treated' against his will, he will have to be shown to be suffering from 'Disease of the mind' and to be a danger to himself or others. For him to be deemed incapable of making decisions about specific parts of his life, he would have to be shown to be incapable of understanding the consequences of the decisions he is making. The law states that there is a presumption of capacity to make decisions, unless it can be demonstrated that there is a lack of capcity. Just because people make unwise decisions doesn't mean that they don't have the capacity to make the decision. Some people would think that I was unwise to pay for my horse to have new shoes, when my work shoes coud do with replacing!  

Click to expand...

I don't think it's "obvious" he has mental health problems. I certainly doubt he's ill enough to be treated against his will or would accept treatment voluntarily if offered.

I respect his choice to lead an unconventional life, but not to keep animals which he cannot afford to properly care for.


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## Baggybreeches (11 January 2013)

YorksG said:



			Just because people make unwise decisions doesn't mean that they don't have the capacity to make the decision. Some people would think that I was unwise to pay for my horse to have new shoes, when my work shoes coud do with replacing!  

Click to expand...

Hence I chose my words carefully! As I said he has psychological issues which is not always the same as mental illness


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## YorksG (11 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			I don't think it's "obvious" he has mental health problems. I certainly doubt he's ill enough to be treated against his will or would accept treatment voluntarily if offered.

I respect his choice to lead an unconventional life, but not to keep animals which he cannot afford to properly care for.
		
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And so like anyone else who make an unwise decision, he will be subject to whatever the legal consequences are.



Baggybreeches said:



			Hence I chose my words carefully! As I said he has psychological issues which is not always the same as mental illness 

Click to expand...

He may have, but unless he chooses to 'have the psychological issues sorted', they will remain as they are, no one can force people to have treatment, unless they fit within the mental health act.


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## horsesatemymoney (11 January 2013)

there's a difference between him waiting help/living life as he sees fit and inflicting a basics lifestyle on horses who don't have a choice. that's my issue I'm afraid


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## SO1 (11 January 2013)

This completely disgusts me there are so many people who have "bonds" with their horses and have to sell them for financial reasons and these are nice decent people too and no-one sets up a charity to help them.

This man should be satisfied with just one or two horses that he can afford to care for and have the time and money to do so properly just like most people who on here who have horses. As he does not own the property he is at risk of being evcited at any point and then how will he cope with finding somewhere else to keep large numbers of horses. Ideally he needs to get the numbers down to a couple of quiet geldings so he can't accidently breed any more.

It is ridiculous people donating to help it will just encourage him to continue living his life in the same way and it indicates that it is acceptable, if people want to give to charity to help horses then why not give to one of the horse charities such as redwings or WHW.


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## fburton (11 January 2013)

Of course one has 'sympathy' but one also has to consider the greater good. Take away all his horses -> depression + suicidal ideation -> Section 2 -> maybe a course in ECT will get rid of those hoarding tendencies as well, who knows? -> total societal conformity. No relatives? Excellent. Horses happy, land owner happy, RSPCA happy. Problem solved!

Seriously, though, I agree that if he could be persuaded (somehow!) to be happy with a handful of non-breeding horses, that would be the best solution.


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## CBAnglo (11 January 2013)

On the registered charity question, it is relatively simple to set up a charity.  You only have to show that you have or will receive donations of at least £5k.

However, then you have all the reporting obligations and tax record (when people check the Gift Aid box it is notified to HMRC) which could be a little awkward when you claim that you havent received anything ... or you are found to be selling off your "donations" ...

Incidentally, there would need to be a charitable cause which is fairly easy to draft for animal type charities.


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## FfionWinnie (11 January 2013)

It's the Great British thing to champion the underdog.  I wouldn't send money personally. Michelle should be looking to get the horses away and him into decent accommodation if possible. Keeping a few would be fine but definitely not breeding more.


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## Cortez (11 January 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			It's the Great British thing to champion the underdog.  I wouldn't send money personally. Michelle should be looking to get the horses away and him into decent accommodation if possible. Keeping a few would be fine but definitely not breeding more.
		
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This ^^^


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## wallykissmas (11 January 2013)

I thought that that house and land belonged to someone else and its now being squatted on. So the house and the land won't be there for use much longer so where will any remaing horses go ??

I did watch the programme and heard Michelle say £35 a day, only joking. The only person who can confirm if he is paying livery is Michelle.

It's a very sad situation of what appears to be a man who has lost control of the horses, they looked wormy and they are breeding without having the colts/stallions separated. Maybe he could make money out of them in the past but in the current climate he must sell them all. How can it be viable for him to keep any horses without the land and on a low income and no home.

I think Michelle is doing a great job of preventing the horses suffering any longer.


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## ponypilotmum (11 January 2013)

wallykissmas said:



			I thought that that house and land belonged to someone else and its now being squatted on. So the house and the land won't be there for use much longer so where will any remaing horses go ??

I did watch the programme and heard Michelle say £35 a day, only joking. The only person who can confirm if he is paying livery is Michelle.

It's a very sad situation of what appears to be a man who has lost control of the horses, they looked wormy and they are breeding without having the colts/stallions separated. Maybe he could make money out of them in the past but in the current climate he must sell them all. How can it be viable for him to keep any horses without the land and on a low income and no home.

I think Michelle is doing a great job of preventing the horses suffering any longer.
		
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So why are donations not being used to castrate these colts? Why are they being sold entire? I just don't understand that. I do not understand ANY horse lover who sells non quality colts entire. Geld it for £90, add the £90 onto the asking price if need be, but son't pass on cr*p for someone else to breed cr*p from. So, no, Michelle is not doing a great job, she's selling these colts for good money and not bothering to do the ONE fundamental thing for their future welfare before they leave.


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## Cortez (11 January 2013)

ponypilotmum said:



			So why are donations not being used to castrate these colts? Why are they being sold entire? I just don't understand that. I do not understand ANY horse lover who sells non quality colts entire. Geld it for £90, add the £90 onto the asking price if need be, but son't pass on cr*p for someone else to breed cr*p from. So, no, Michelle is not doing a great job, she's selling these colts for good money and not bothering to do the ONE fundamental thing for their future welfare before they leave.
		
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ARE the colts are not being castrated? Even during the program there were some that we were told were caught to be gelded. Perhaps some have been sold entire, but surely the new owners would have them gelded? Who would want an unregistered, unhandled colt, let alone be prepared to breed from them?


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## wallykissmas (11 January 2013)

ponypilotmum said:



			So why are donations not being used to castrate these colts? Why are they being sold entire? I just don't understand that. I do not understand ANY horse lover who sells non quality colts entire. Geld it for £90, add the £90 onto the asking price if need be, but son't pass on cr*p for someone else to breed cr*p from. So, no, Michelle is not doing a great job, she's selling these colts for good money and not bothering to do the ONE fundamental thing for their future welfare before they leave.
		
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Cortez said:



			ARE the colts are not being castrated? Even during the program there were some that we were told were caught to be gelded. Perhaps some have been sold entire, but surely the new owners would have them gelded? Who would want an unregistered, unhandled colt, let alone be prepared to breed from them?
		
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I too thought they were being gelded, he had got some in a seperate part building ready to have them gelded.??


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## horsesatemymoney (11 January 2013)

I've just watched it again- definately 35 a week livery. Also, Clwyd was ranting that after the fees taken out of the sale, there'd be no money left for him. Hmmm....


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## grandmaweloveyou (11 January 2013)

I was all for the support but am already ignoring the numerous status updates gushing about this that and the other...


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## randomatheart (11 January 2013)

I think it is awful that people are donating money, feed, and everything else. 
This man was not reported to the rspca for no reason and wouldnt of said he was guilty. 
Many people in his local area are absolutely discussed that people feel sorry for him! 
This is because they know what the man is really like, half of them horses he has there it could be garanteed they are inbreed,(most fillies and mares being in foal to their own sires)  and would be surprised about how many horses he has buried on his land because he has shot them or killed them due to not being able to provide them proper vetenairy care. 
All off them horses michelle is selling she sells for 300-800 pound a piece so clwyd does not need anybody else to be donating him money, wormers etc because he has enough income to provide them decent care. 
People feeling sorry for the state he lives in well how about keeping a few (2 or 3 ) horses under good care, instead off letting them get out of controlling breeding more and more through no fault of their own but throught the faults of the owner!

He should not be allowed to keep 52 horses and really shouldnt be allowed to keep any off them if he can not look after himself how on earth is he meant to look after 52 horses! OK the horses look in good condition that doesnt mean they are not riddled with worms and lice etc which most of them are! 

I believe no human being should be allowed to keep any sort of animal if they can not look after themselfs in the first place and espically not this man!!


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## hippo66hippo66 (11 January 2013)

I watched the program and to be honest I wasn't convinced about any of it

During the program a lot of hints were dropped about Clwyd's mental health and that the loss of his child had started all of the problems he was having  - to be honest what I saw was a 'switched on' wily old man who was more than capable of manipulating the situation to his own ends.


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## iconique (11 January 2013)

horsesatemychristmasmoney said:



			if I had a spare tenner to donate, I'd rather give it to a kid's cancer charity. I'm not denying this guy needs some help, but I think it's via a gp , not monetary donations. one of the horses is up for 500 pounds not a lot and might not sell, but if he sells 20 that's 10k! I wonder if some people want to help because they see it as doing something against the rspca ? its very sad allround but I don't think giving him money to carry on will help....he needs the help and support of professional mental health workers or likely is he'll do this again in the future....he's a hoarder .
		
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I agree with this, by giving him money and items it encouraging him to continue, but imo the person who is making money out of this is Michelle.  I saw the programme and it struck me  when I saw her and another trying to tug a pony into a box using the tail that it is a person who has very cleverly got the media involved to tell everyone how terrible it is but then really advertise her plight to sell horses.  Theres a post early on on this post, which I haven't quoted but they've apparently been there and by what they say this lady is in it for the money - bet she wouldn't be able to afford to run her stables without this income?

Unfortunately the RSPCA didn't come over very well - don't want to raise this as a debate there are plenty already.  There are obviously some issues around his caring for himself, but I think this needs proper help to help him not live in squalor.  

To me its a bit like puppy farming, stop buying, stop the demand and they stop breeding!  But he is also being given ponies?  Stop this as well, put money to gelding what he has and hey presto much of the problem solved.
If I was donating, I'd send him a tube of wormer, but I won't be as a proper charity would come much higher up the list.


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## joeanne (11 January 2013)

The facebook sites that Michelle advertises on sells them as colts.....for far more than they are worth imo.


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

This man has been found guilty of causing unnecessary suffering to horses.it was not through ignorance, he used to be a prolific breeder. Some of the horses which were subject to the case were emancipated, and I have linked a case photograph onto the original thread showing this. So why on earth anybody feels that this man is some sort of celebrity who should receive handouts I really don't know and quite frankly am shocked. I would rather flush my money down the loo than fund him to continue putting horses at risk.


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

Joeanne just seen your post.  How responsible selling them on as colts!


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

Stupid phone! Emaciated not emancipated!


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## joeanne (11 January 2013)

Probably one of the few times you and I see eye to eye Moomin eh!
But yes.....of you are going to sell goals without breed papers, for far more than they are worth, then bung another £90 on and geld the poor sods.


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## joeanne (11 January 2013)

Sell foals* 
Poxy phone....


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## carthorse (11 January 2013)

There seem to be some now up for rehoming on facebook. The trouble with all charities is people realise they can make money and if the problem is solved then their money stops. It is legal to pay yourself a wage through a charity.  If the horses are given up to the RSPCA then they will go out for adoption properly. I am just wondering if they are selling them and keeping some which they can use the donations


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## carthorse (11 January 2013)

To keep


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## FionaM12 (11 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Stupid phone! Emaciated not emancipated!
		
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Made me smile though.


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## Mrs. Jingle (11 January 2013)

I won't add to the numerous posts already made concerning both the wily old fox and his business partner. I have already done this on facebook and it will not make one jot of difference to the mass hysteria now associated with giving anything and everything to this rather dubious 'cause'.

However I would like to say that I have not seen one comment about the role that the sponsors and  producers of this television garbage have played in this farce? Am I the only one who questions the morality of the decision to air an extremely biased and inaccurate picture of what is going on with this 'down on his luck breeder and dealer of third rate ponies'?

But then why am I surprised...this seems to be the medias latest choice of money spinner....just another highly inaccurate and inflammatory 'documentary' that falls apart when the truth is questioned more closely.


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			Made me smile though. 

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Believe me I have had people actually say that to me, and I  have had to stifle my laughter so much that my my cheeks have ended up aching!


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## whoatherejig (11 January 2013)

The programme just made me think wtf was that all about????


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## horsesatemymoney (11 January 2013)

Emancipating them might solve the issue! I'd love 52 horses, but I know I can't afford more than 1 or 2...therefore, I only live within my horsey means and don't buy a mare and stallion and let them run wild together! Simples! I think there's more too it than we know, but expect it will all become clear at some point


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

whoatherejig said:



			The programme just made me think wtf was that all about????


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I'm not surprised!

What it was really about, and what it should have shown, is basically a hoarder who failed to provide basic care on a long term basis to his masses of horses, despite over 200 hours of help from the RSPCA (and more than likely other organisations aswell), with two warnings, one of which the time limit was actually extended in order to give him even more of a chance to rectify things, finally ending up being found guilty of unnecessary suffering after causing some horses to become emaciated.  Not to mention the fact that in the meantime, despite the warnings he went and got more horses, possibly resulting in the death of a foal.

But no, that would be too boring for the media wouldn't it?  Instead they thought they would miss out the fact that he had all this prior help, and just launch in making out that the RSPCA had just recieved a call, skidded around the corner with a load of horseboxes and removed everything straight away!


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## guesstimation (11 January 2013)

It's not sat right with me either.  Don't get me wrong I am all for helping people but it has to be the right kind of help.  It never ceases to amaze me how many people will donate money to something without really knowing what's going on, loads of people are offering all sorts of help and money based on a well edited half hour programme! 

Donating money to the feed shop to pay to feed his horses, surely that is just enabling him?

If people really want to help perhaps donate to a vet to castrate his colts.

At the end of the day he is a hoarder so if his horses are helped and re-homed etc whose to say he isn't just going to get more.

His living conditions looked appalling and I imagine he needs help of some kind but not sure this is it, and he needs to want it and accept it not just take money to pay for his horses (not saying this is what's going on as don't know where the money is going or what it's doing) but yes it doesn't sit right with me at all!  

Ideally for me I'd like to see the horses re-homed and him left with a few that he can manage so he can keep them in his life, but not add to at a later date, and for his living conditions to improve and hopefully accept help and support in that area.

I imagine there will be another documentary on his house being cleared and the horses in the near future


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

I wonder if those people who are so keen to donate and feel like he is some kind of celebrity have seen the things that the documentary did not feel necessary to show?

Like this for instance? :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rspca/8365018496/in/photostream


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## guesstimation (11 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			I wonder if those people who are so keen to donate and feel like he is some kind of celebrity have seen the things that the documentary did not feel necessary to show?

Like this for instance? :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rspca/8365018496/in/photostream

Click to expand...

This is what gets me how so many people can jump on board without knowing the full story, people just believe what they see on TV as gospel!  I am the first to be infuriated with the way the RSPCA loaded that pony, that was appalling (I've loaded a lot of wild ponies over the years and never needed to dart one or upset them quite so much) but we were not given any info on the ones taken away, the state they were in, the history of visits etc.  I'd want to know everything before deciding whether I should part with my cash!


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## carthorse (11 January 2013)

On facebook they have asked people to ask channel 4 to do another programme on him. These horses need the right adopting homes so they can have care all their life. Some of the people asking about them dont sound like the people who could train a feral.pony.


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

guesstimation said:



			This is what gets me how so many people can jump on board without knowing the full story, people just believe what they see on TV as gospel!  I am the first to be infuriated with the way the RSPCA loaded that pony, that was appalling (I've loaded a lot of wild ponies over the years and never needed to dart one or upset them quite so much) but we were not given any info on the ones taken away, the state they were in, the history of visits etc.  I'd want to know everything before deciding whether I should part with my cash!
		
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The darting and loading was all done under a vets supervision.  Darting may look terrible, but it really is imperitive in some situations.  Lots of people have commented on here about the fact it took a long time to actually take any effect.  The sedative can, when adrenalin levels are very high in some horses take a long time to take effect, whereas in others it may work immediately.  Personally I think it was worse when that Michelle was pulling the tail to try and get it in!  She clearly doesn't realise that it is a continuation of the spine!


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## joeanne (11 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			I wonder if those people who are so keen to donate and feel like he is some kind of celebrity have seen the things that the documentary did not feel necessary to show?

Like this for instance? :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rspca/8365018496/in/photostream

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In all honestly Moomin that could be any old horse. There is nothing on that saying its his.
I think there is fault on all sides here.
The RSPCA could have handled that a whole lot better (particularly the loading of the pony).
Michelle could stop exploiting the old man, and instead of charging him £35 a week livery, she could geld and sell the colts (and the stallion producing them).
Oh and somebody could involve SS and try and sort that poor sods living arrangments out...whether he likes it or not!


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

Oh my god someone on the fb site is actually wondering if they can get Princess Anne or Zara Phillips to support their cause!! 

Are they for real?


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

joeanne said:



			In all honestly Moomin that could be any old horse. There is nothing on that saying its his.
I think there is fault on all sides here.
The RSPCA could have handled that a whole lot better (particularly the loading of the pony).
Michelle could stop exploiting the old man, and instead of charging him £35 a week livery, she could geld and sell the colts (and the stallion producing them).
Oh and somebody could involve SS and try and sort that poor sods living arrangments out...whether he likes it or not!
		
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The RSPCA issued a statement along with that photo on their site.  I promise you, it is genuine, and one of the horses involved in the prosecution.


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## horsesatemymoney (11 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			I wonder if those people who are so keen to donate and feel like he is some kind of celebrity have seen the things that the documentary did not feel necessary to show?

Like this for instance? :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rspca/8365018496/in/photostream

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was this one of this?!


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## YorksG (11 January 2013)

Oh and somebody could involve SS and try and sort that poor sods living arrangments out...whether he likes it or not![/QUOTE]

I did explain earlier in the thread which laws can be used and they do not seem appropriate from what I've read on this thread. It does sound as if he could be evicted by the landowner, or possibly the 1948 national assistance act could be used to clean the property up, if it is as insanitary as it sounds. Things cannot be done to people and their housing 'whether they like it or not'.


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## guesstimation (11 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			The darting and loading was all done under a vets supervision.  Darting may look terrible, but it really is imperitive in some situations.  Lots of people have commented on here about the fact it took a long time to actually take any effect.  The sedative can, when adrenalin levels are very high in some horses take a long time to take effect, whereas in others it may work immediately.  Personally I think it was worse when that Michelle was pulling the tail to try and get it in!  She clearly doesn't realise that it is a continuation of the spine!
		
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The darting isn't the issue for me it's the fact there shouldn't have been any need to dart the pony in the first place, with people correctly trained in dealing with feral ponies and a well thought out plan and equipment set up etc it is possible to load such ponies in a much less stressful manner.


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## SatansLittleHelper (11 January 2013)

Moomin1..Im shocked to discover that I more or less agree with you...!!!!


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## horsesatemymoney (11 January 2013)

HeavyHorseHugger said:



			Moomin1..Im shocked to discover that I more or less agree with you...!!!! 

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 I agree with Moomin on this one too!


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## BeesKnees (11 January 2013)

Or he could have accepted he needed help, stopped sitting eating his lunch and laughing whilst the horse he 'loved' became distressed and had to be darted, and HELPED?! 

Honestly the thing is a bloody farce. And people now rushing to send money are simply enabling a very unsatisfactory situation to continue.


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## horsesatemymoney (11 January 2013)

BeesKnees said:



			Or he could have accepted he needed help, stopped sitting eating his lunch and laughing whilst the horse he 'loved' became distressed and had to be darted, and HELPED?! 

Honestly the thing is a bloody farce. And people now rushing to send money are simply enabling a very unsatisfactory situation to continue.
		
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On the FB page, somebody has written to DIY SOS to sort his house out! They must have forgot he squats there!


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## fizzer (11 January 2013)

I think it is sad that he lives in a squalor BUT to find out its not even his house or land is shocking.  

Would he have so many horses if he had to  A) pay rent or  B) buy some land.    NO......

This is what annoys me, I know lots of people that would love to own their own horse, land and house but can not afford.  They do not just find a derelict farm and squat.


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## horsesatemymoney (11 January 2013)

fizzer said:



			I think it is sad that he lives in a squalor BUT to find out its not even his house or land is shocking.  

Would he have so many horses if he had to  A) pay rent or  B) buy some land.    NO......

This is what annoys me, I know lots of people that would love to own their own horse, land and house but can not afford.  They do not just find a derelict farm and squat.
		
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And then get 52 horses! Irresponsible


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## competitiondiva (11 January 2013)

Wow a thread where people are singing off the same hymn sheet. How refreshing!!! I thought the country had finally gone mad until I read this! Oh and moomin you made my night with that 'emancipation' miss type!!!! Loll


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## carthorse (11 January 2013)

They have just threatened to remove me from their facebook page just because I mentioned I was concerned about the horses being sold instead of adopted.


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## horsesatemymoney (11 January 2013)

carthorse said:



			They have just threatened to remove me from their facebook page just because I mentioned I was concerned about the horses being sold instead of adopted.
		
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I'm not sure I'm looking at the right one- the Wrexham one? I was surprised the coloured is £500, if you're looking at the same one.


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

horsesatemychristmasmoney said:



			was this one of this?! 

Click to expand...

Yes that was one of them.

I wonder what the people on the fb site would think if that picture was put up! 

Thank god people here can see it for what it is, was beginning to lose faith in humanity reading some of the fb support for him.


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## brighteyes (11 January 2013)

Baggybreeches said:



			My mother lives a little like this too, she is intelligent, articulate and wealthy (as in has enough money to go and buy a small house outright!), yet she chooses to live in a static caravan behind her friend's indoor school. Lots of people who know of her but  don't know her ask me why she is there. I don't have the answer and I never will, I know one thing though, if my mother makes her choice nobody changes her mind. 

I didn't watch the show because it would not have been a balanced view, but from what I have heard the chap needs his psychological issues sorting out first and foremost.
		
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He needs all his colts' balls chopping off first   And I don't believe he is a hoarder.


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

competitiondiva said:



			Wow a thread where people are singing off the same hymn sheet. How refreshing!!! I thought the country had finally gone mad until I read this! Oh and moomin you made my night with that 'emancipation' miss type!!!! Loll
		
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Ha ha!!  I have new iphone and I'm no good with all this new fangled technology and predictive text stuff!  Was mortified when I realised - thank god I spotted it quickly!


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## djlynwood (11 January 2013)

Moomin1 I cant open the picture you posted. Would have liked to post it on my facebook page.


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## horsesatemymoney (11 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Yes that was one of them.

I wonder what the people on the fb site would think if that picture was put up! 

Thank god people here can see it for what it is, was beginning to lose faith in humanity reading some of the fb support for him.
		
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Shocking! That's not just a bit lacking in worming etc


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

djlynwood said:



			Moomin1 I cant open the picture you posted. Would have liked to post it on my facebook page.
		
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/rspca/8365018496/in/photostream

Try this.

As I say I am a bit rubbish with technology - does anybody else on here know how djlynwood could open it if it doesn't work?

Does it work for everyone else?


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

horsesatemychristmasmoney said:



			Shocking! That's not just a bit lacking in worming etc
		
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I know, that's why I got a bit heated on the other thread - I just can't understand people who think that this man shouldn't have had his horses removed or been taken to court.


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## carthorse (11 January 2013)

Photo has been put on the support facebook page. I could see it on there


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

carthorse said:



			Photo has been put on the support facebook page. I could see it on there
		
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Good stuff.

No doubt of course it will get poo-pooed as fake or photo shopped or some rubbish like that! 

At least if it gives a little insight into the other side of the coin and the real story then it may do some good.


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## competitiondiva (11 January 2013)

Anyone got the link to the Facebook page?


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## carthorse (11 January 2013)

Its 'support for Clwyd Davies and his horses' then you have to click posts by other people


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

competitiondiva said:



			Anyone got the link to the Facebook page?
		
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I would prepare yourself to be very riled competitiondiva if you are going to have a read through there!


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## FionaM12 (11 January 2013)

Someone has posted Moomin's photo on the Fb page and the only comment says "poor Clwyd!"

eta (by Moomin's photo I mean the one Moomin posted here, btw!  Not a photo belonging to or of Moomin. )


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## carthorse (11 January 2013)

I want the horses looked after and also him being looked after but think it needs to be done properly and he needs to realise he can't just let horses run wild and breed.


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			Someone has posted Moomin's photo on the Fb page and the only comment says "poor Clwyd!"
		
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Yes I know! 

The disease she is talking about on that comment is mainly caused by chronic excessive worm burden, and no they don't always lose condition within days, it is usually chronic weight loss.


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			Someone has posted Moomin's photo on the Fb page and the only comment says "poor Clwyd!"

eta (by Moomin's photo I mean the one Moomin posted here, btw!  Not a photo belonging to or of Moomin. )
		
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Oh my god glad you clarified that Fiona!!


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

Urgh don't think I can even look at that fb site any longer - someone's comment about 'if his horses are well cared for etc etc then whose business is if he has them etc etc.  Are these people completely blinkered and narrow minded?

Anyway thought I would repost this (put it on the original thread).  The statement made along with the photo:

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/kl67j7


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## competitiondiva (11 January 2013)

Thanks for that moomin, pity it's hidden on twitter, which I don't do, and not on their own website? Still can't find where the pic is listed on the Facebook page.


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

competitiondiva said:



			Thanks for that moomin, pity it's hidden on twitter, which I don't do, and not on their own website? Still can't find where the pic is listed on the Facebook page.
		
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No it's miles down somewhere now - I can't find it anymore, it was a few days ago and there were tons of posts on it.  That pic was posted along with the statement.


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## competitiondiva (11 January 2013)

Found out now, apparently it had protein losing entropathy, which googling is caused by over use of brute or heavy parasitism!


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

competitiondiva said:



			Found out now, apparently it had protein losing entropathy, which googling is caused by over use of brute or heavy parasitism!
		
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Yes and that usually causes chronic weight loss not rapid as Michelle is suggesting.

Either way, the horse was under no vet treatment by Clwyd whatsoever, and the heavy worm burden is most likely to have caused the PLE.


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## competitiondiva (11 January 2013)

Lol just seen my post, over use of brute not bute!!! Well that'd cause it too am sure!!! Lol.


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

competitiondiva said:



			Lol just seen my post, over use of brute not bute!!! Well that'd cause it too am sure!!! Lol.
		
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PMSL!  That would definately cause it to become emancipated!


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

How interesting..the original comment made by Michelle or whoever runs that fb page, saying about the horse being one of Clwyds which had PLE, has now disappeared, and everyone is trying to be clever rolleyes saying that the pic is not linked to Clwyd's horses, and is nothing to do with him!  

I love the fact they are trying to call Carthorse a troll - pmsl, the picture IS authentic, and it has been issued by the RSPCA on their fb site with the statement.


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## horsesatemymoney (11 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			How interesting..the original comment made by Michelle or whoever runs that fb page, saying about the horse being one of Clwyds which had PLE, has now disappeared, and everyone is trying to be clever rolleyes saying that the pic is not linked to Clwyd's horses, and is nothing to do with him!  

I love the fact they are trying to call Carthorse a troll - pmsl, the picture IS authentic, and it has been issued by the RSPCA on their fb site with the statement. 

Click to expand...

could you share that RSPCA page, not the link, on the Clwyd facebook page? I've just watched it again, the sad bit was when he said he thought of Michelle as a daighter


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## Echo Bravo (11 January 2013)

No sympathy at all as he let this horses breed and did nothing about their welfare and chucking food into the mud,20 horses went and he let 20 horses back on and had 1 filly foal killed and he wasn't even bothered about it,he's mentally ill and should be treated as such and the rest of the horses taken away.


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## lula (11 January 2013)

absolutely incredible how hypocritical facebook pages and their mobs can be.

anyone remember those shires about a year ago that were being left to rot and a young lady vet saved a young filly that had fallen into a river and nearly drowned?

Cant remember the exact details now but there were photos of a herd of shire horses in a similar condition and people could not call the man responsible enough names or condemn him enough. Appalling etc etc yet when a poster called 'Richard Partington' posts a similar welfare case photo of a horse owned by Clywd Davies people are turning themselves inside out to defend the owner responsible and calling the poster a 'troll' for daring to bring it up.!!

Has the world gone blinking mad or have people just got very short memories?


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## lula (11 January 2013)

carthorse said:



			On facebook they have asked people to ask channel 4 to do another programme on him..
		
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i expect we'll see him on Celebrity Big Brother next.


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## Highlands (11 January 2013)

Plenty of our causes that seem to not be mentioned hmmm.......no one held a gun and said have 52 horses...... Sorry charity begins at home...I did send three rugs and some money to a local charity the other day. Got such a nice message back from lady.... But not for someone with 52!

Would have thought rugs for feral horses was a fab idea...... Put in on today..... Can't get near it ever..... 

Would rather give my money to horses in Egypt who exchange bits and make fleecy nosebands.... It makes their lives easier and these poor horses belong to people so poor they can't even eat themselves.


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## Highlands (11 January 2013)

lula said:



			i expect we'll see him on Celebrity Big Brother next.
		
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The facebookers can pay for the right to feed his horses ? Take a badge home..... I have fed a feral horse.


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

horsesatemychristmasmoney said:



			could you share that RSPCA page, not the link, on the Clwyd facebook page? I've just watched it again, the sad bit was when he said he thought of Michelle as a daighter 

Click to expand...

I won't get involved on that page, for personal reasons, but I can try and scroll down the RSPCA page and find it, then post the link on here if anyone else wants to put it on the Clwyd fb page.

https://twitter.com/rspca_official

I'm so rubbish at technology!  Scroll down to the tweet at melissa_wright and the photo is there

Mm worrying that melissa_wright appears to think that because it's coat is 'shiny' it's not suffering!  She obviously has more qualifications and veterinary knowledge than the independant vet who deemed these horses to be suffering.


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## BoxCleva (11 January 2013)

ISHmad said:



			Copied from the FB Page. See comment underneath re keeping the horses

t is with great pleasure and gratitude that Jaden Cornelious Fundraising has offered very kindly to accept Paypal donations for and on behalf of the Horse and Owner Help Center registered address:

18 FRIARSMEWS
BANGOR-ON- DEE 
WREXHAM 
WALES 
LL13 0AX
		
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The registered address is that of her accountant . I know this as up until last year he was my accountant as well. 

I also know someone who has  bought a horse from Clwyd (via Michelle). 

He is indeed technically squatting in the property, but it is far from that straightforward. He has use of the land from the farmer which just happens to have that semi derelict house on it in which he resides. Officially he is squatting. Off the record he has full use of the property, and land, with the full blessing of the land owner.


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## lula (11 January 2013)

BoxCleva said:



			The registered address is that of her accountant . I know this as up until last year he was my accountant as well. 

Click to expand...

slightly confused.

Is Jaden Cornelious Fundraising an actual charity or is the money they're asking for going directly to Michelle's accountant?

edited: ah, ok sorry thnk i understand now, said accountant has set up this 'Horse and owner' charity for michelle.
sound like an excellent idea. I wonder if they'd like to give me some? I am officially a horse owner after all


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## BoxCleva (11 January 2013)

That is unclear. 

The donations go to JC as he has a Paypal account. The funds should then be passed to Michelle to administer on Clwyd's behalf. What happens after that I don't know.


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## ofcourseyoucan (11 January 2013)

didnt see the programme but from face book and internet info it is soundin like the rspca has gone in rightly or wrongly. now face book and jcfunding are collecting much money/donation of food/ work etc. now seeming to smell like scamming to me. shame no one on this forum felt the compassion when sticking the knife into friends of champ in henley in arden last year. very similar situation. only her name was/is not michelle..


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## Moomin1 (11 January 2013)

ofcourseyoucan said:



			didnt see the programme but from face book and internet info it is soundin like the rspca has gone in rightly or wrongly. now face book and jcfunding are collecting much money/donation of food/ work etc. now seeming to smell like scamming to me. shame no one on this forum felt the compassion when sticking the knife into friends of champ in henley in arden last year. very similar situation. only her name was/is not michelle..
		
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I remember that, another ramshackle disaster of a 'rescue'.

The only reason people are rallying around is because they basically are glory hunting!  The mass hysteria has set in and like a herd of sheep they blindly follow suit without looking at the cold hard facts.

I do wonder if it had been WHW who had (if the did do them) brought the prosecution whether a) there would  have been a documentary made in the first place, and b) whether all of these Clwyd fans would see him in the same light and offer the same support then.  It strikes me many of them are doing it because they have a point to make against the RSPCA, which really is shocking considering they are not thinking about the poor horses which have suffered at the hands of this man.


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## ofcourseyoucan (12 January 2013)

i think michelle crowther's tax return in the next couple of yearsw might make interesting reading. i would gladly re home one. i would not buy one.


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## Moomin1 (12 January 2013)

ofcourseyoucan said:



			i think michelle crowther's tax return in the next couple of yearsw might make interesting reading. i would gladly re home one. i would not buy one.
		
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Yes it's quite funny how Michelle is Clwyd's saviour and yet she still charges him £35 pw livery!


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## lula (12 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Yes it's quite funny how Michelle is Clwyd's saviour and yet she still charges him £35 pw livery!
		
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and be saving a wedge on having to buy a lot of wormers and rugs now the public are happy emptying their purses and tack rooms for her.

Maybe thats unfair of me though, is she a registered horse charity?


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## Moomin1 (12 January 2013)

lula said:



			and be saving a wedge on having to buy a lot of wormers and rugs now the public are happy emptying their purses and tack rooms for her.

Maybe thats unfair of me though, is she a registered horse charity?
		
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I don't think so, but not 100% sure.  Either way, I have little time for 'rescues' which take on more than they can afford.


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## horsesatemymoney (12 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Yes it's quite funny how Michelle is Clwyd's saviour and yet she still charges him £35 pw livery!
		
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This was what I didn't like- if she needed to charge him, 35 is quite steep for a 'rescue'- she loaded 3 on to take to her yard in the programme- £150 a week- no wonder she was panicking about the RSPCA coming back when he had the 10 TBs on the land- worried her cash cow was going to be taken away!


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## Moomin1 (12 January 2013)

horsesatemychristmasmoney said:



			This was what I didn't like- if she needed to charge him, 35 is quite steep for a 'rescue'- she loaded 3 on to take to her yard in the programme- £150 a week- no wonder she was panicking about the RSPCA coming back when he had the 10 TBs on the land- worried her cash cow was going to be taken away! 

Click to expand...

Yup!  Lol!


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## horsesatemymoney (12 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Yup!  Lol!
		
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 hmmmm....i expect time will tell!


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## Moomin1 (12 January 2013)

Lol, they've got some crackers on that fb site!!  

There's someone thinking they are so clever now and saying that the photo posted is actually Richard Partington's own private album, and they have downloaded the photos, taken a reg number of a van seen in one photo, believing Richard Partington to be an RSPCA officer, in order to report them to the RSPCA!!    I would love to be a fly on the wall when they get the answer of 'err, yes, that is our twitter photograph album' !!!! 

Can't believe how hell bent some people are to believe his innocence!


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## EstherYoung (12 January 2013)

competitiondiva said:



			Found out now, apparently it had protein losing entropathy, which googling is caused by over use of brute or heavy parasitism!
		
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Our yard lost a young horse to this. It was caused by an eruption of encysted immature redworm, and the horse went from perfectly OK to deaths door in 48 hours. Very very scary. In his case it was caused by resistance to moxidectin allowing the redworm to flourish. He clung on for another three weeks with intensive vet support but eventually lost his fight. 

Unfortunately I don't think that resistance to wormers was the issue in this case (because they would have actually had to have had some....), but I thought I ought to post my experience as I would hate for people to be complacent about redworm. It is a very very serious problem, it can be very sudden in onset, it is not just confined to neglect cases, and there is no test for the immature worms as they are not mature enough to lay eggs. Young horses are particularly at risk, and with resistance growing to the only two wormers that deal with the issue even having a good worming programme may not save the horse. Sometimes worming the horse can trigger an attack, as clearing the gut of adult mature worms can act as a 'call to arms' to those buried beneath and then they all erupt en masse.

The symptoms are lethargy, extreme weight loss, and swollen body parts caused by the leaking protein. Don't ever think that just because a horse looks 'well' that it doesn't have worms.


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## hairycob (12 January 2013)

Sure the guy needs help - help to realise he must get rid of & mustn't replace his horses. Never, for god's sake to keep them. I'm still not convinced that prosecution is the right thing simply because I don't think it will change him, just use up money that could be put to use gelding/moving on etc his & other horses. The money would be spent then a short while later he would have a pile of horses somewhere. Mentally ill or just messed up in his head - I don't know.
Like I said on the other thread, he reminds me of my uncle. If he had been charged with vagrancy it wouldn't have made one iota of difference for his decisions to sleep rough. But just because it was his choice it doesn't mean it's what made him happy. My uncle was a deeply unhappy man & that's what drove him to his choices. I know what was behind his deep unhappiness, but it's a private family matter I'm not prepared to discuss on a forum. I know the same situation has affected all those involved deeply & lastingly but in different ways. If he had had outside support as a child/young man maybe things would have been different. All I know is by the time he was offered outside support it was too late & he was too ingrained in his habits to want to change - in truth he was scared of change & scared of living a "normal" life.
Maybe that's what has happened to this guy, maybe not. But I can't see that helping him keep this vast herd will help him. Sadly I also don't know after all this time what will & suspect the best thing in the end would be for him to be allowed to live out his life in his squalour, possibly with some contact with horses or closely monitored ownership of 1 or 2 geldings.


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## competitiondiva (12 January 2013)

What people seem to forget, or not know, is that if Clwyd is refusing to alter the situation, it is a only a court that can enforce those changes. Therefore a prosecution is the only solution. The fact he was given 2 warning notices and a time extension from the RSPCA, smacks to me that this is the situation.


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## djlynwood (12 January 2013)

Someone mentioned in an earlier post about dead horses being found in his previous residence. Was anything done about this?


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## Patterdale (12 January 2013)

Just seen the Facebook page. 

Good Lord!


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## lula (12 January 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Just seen the Facebook page. 

Good Lord! 

Click to expand...


Clwyd for Prime Minister!


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## Patterdale (12 January 2013)

'We need to get this man some land of his own'

 

Aye, and I could do with a few more acres while they're at it! I only keep as many horses as I can afford though, so I'm probably not eligible. 

After reading Michelle's comments she has gone up a bit in my estimation though. She's not getting into any personal or heated arguments that I can see, and is admitting the horses were poor and needed to be taken away.


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## hairycob (12 January 2013)

Just delved into the facebook page. Wow - I never realised there were so many idiots in the world! How can they possibly see some of the suggestions as a good idea. I suspect all sorts of dodgy people will be sitting reading that & working out how to make a quick buck out of them. I can also see the old boy getting a bit peed off with the interference.
Someone made the point that probably the only way the RSPCA can get some of the horses away is by prosecuting & I guess that is fair comment but it is a shame they have to use resources that way.


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## Moomin1 (12 January 2013)

Patterdale said:



			'We need to get this man some land of his own'

 

Aye, and I could do with a few more acres while they're at it! I only keep as many horses as I can afford though, so I'm probably not eligible. 

After reading Michelle's comments she has gone up a bit in my estimation though. She's not getting into any personal or heated arguments that I can see, and is admitting the horses were poor and needed to be taken away.
		
Click to expand...

Yes and seems her 'supporters' appear to be blatently ignoring that and still trying to deny that the horse was his or in bad condition! 

Interestingly, it would appear Michelle had a 'helper' who sadly died in a tragic accident last year.  This girl apparently used to sell a lot of horses at Beeston and 'stand up on them' in the ring.


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## fburton (12 January 2013)

So how would people like to see this situation resolve, ideally? Moomin1?


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## Patterdale (12 January 2013)

Do feel a bit sorry for Clwyd in all this. I very much doubt it was his idea to set up a Facebook page....


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## Patterdale (12 January 2013)

Do feel a bit sorry for Clwyd in all this. I very much doubt it was his idea to set up a Facebook page....and have his life made very public


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## Moomin1 (12 January 2013)

fburton said:



			So how would people like to see this situation resolve, ideally? Moomin1?
		
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You have asked me this before I think fburton.

I think the actions of the RSPCA were proportionate and just, and the only option left.  

Ideally, I don't think any person who has been found guilty of causing unnecessary suffering should be in possession of any animal.  Harsh on him maybe, but I don't for one second believe he was that fussed about them anyway, given the fact the documentary itself said that he 'was disgruntled that the proceeds of the sales were going to have to be spent on wormers etc for the remaining ones'.  I can't believe that people seem to have clouded over that bit! 

However, if that is not going to happen then I would like to see Clwyd recieve some psychological help, have the majority of horses removed from him, and a close eye kept on him to ensure he doesn't get any more and the ball start rolling again.  I also have concerns about the way Michelle is running the show, taking on more horses than she herself appears to be able to afford or cope with, asking random strangers to come and help out (bearing in mind it appears one of her previous helpers used to sell loads of horses through Beeston and was known for 'standing up on their backs' in the ring.) and donate money to pay for a man to keep horses when he has already caused suffering.  Plus, donating cookers etc because they say he can't afford to live, yet he said he was spending £100 per week on his horses from his pension.  Well, he doesn't have as many horses now, and also, it is quite frankly his look out if he has chosen to live that way and have the horses instead of looking after himself.  Nobody, however much they donate etc etc, is going to do any good for him in the long run, because it is just making it a damn site easier for him to go out and get more and more.  Plus, the fact that Michelle was or is charging him £35 per week livery, but then asking for donations to help out, to me, is hardly 'charitable' on her behalf.  More of a business, laced with glory.


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## Patterdale (12 January 2013)

I actually agree with you (for once! ) moomin. 
There isn't really a resolution for this that will leave all parties happy IMO. 

But the hype and donations etc going on now doesn't sit v well with me.


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## fburton (12 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			You have asked me this before I think fburton.
		
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I did, but this is the first time you've actually said what you would like to see happen in the future. Thank you.


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

Claudia, you may be right but can you back that up with more information? People need some evidence of what you say, and what your connection with the case is before accepting your remarks as valid.


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

...and now my post looks insane as Claudia has disappeared without a trace...


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## WelshD (12 January 2013)

Pats Fiona on the shoulder... There there did your imaginary friend go home?....

It's ok, I saw it too 

Just as well it's gone, it could have got the thread pulled


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## Star_Chaser (12 January 2013)

I don't think it is really anyone else's business or decision what happens next that is up to Clywd himself.  Having said that though he is getting on and given his lifestyle downsizing a bit more than he has would be advisable.

In all honesty I would rather give my cash to John Dunlop he was very kind to me years ago sad to see him go into liquidation.


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## Patterdale (12 January 2013)

Got an imaginary friend, Bill? 








Only joking.......I saw it too!


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## djlynwood (12 January 2013)

Was the post by Claudia with reference to horses at a previous residence?


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

djlynwood said:



			Was the post by Claudia with reference to horses at a previous residence?
		
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Not sure it mentioned that, but it allegations re Michelle. Best not repeated as I might vanish like Claudia did!


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## djlynwood (12 January 2013)

Ah right, missed that one.


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## coralwings20 (12 January 2013)

i have asked for details of the accountant in charge of the huge amount of donations rec'vd & been accused of being ignorant & nasty?! so, does anyone know who is registering the donation money & what it's being spent on? does clwyd or michelle rec the money? does it all go on the horses? where does the sale money go & how comes (if he is not breeding/collecting anymore) does he mantain to sell so many monthly as months ago he got the numbers down to 20?! 

i have no problem with donating but in a legit way


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## Patterdale (12 January 2013)

I think, coralwings, that they may be the million dollar questions.......


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## Moomin1 (12 January 2013)

It appears any slight thing you say which may infer suspicion or disagreement with the supporters of this cause is responded to with an accusation of being nasty, vindictive or a troll on fb!


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## rascal (12 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			You have asked me this before I think fburton.

I think the actions of the RSPCA were proportionate and just, and the only option left.  

Ideally, I don't think any person who has been found guilty of causing unnecessary suffering should be in possession of any animal.  Harsh on him maybe, but I don't for one second believe he was that fussed about them anyway, given the fact the documentary itself said that he 'was disgruntled that the proceeds of the sales were going to have to be spent on wormers etc for the remaining ones'.  I can't believe that people seem to have clouded over that bit! 

However, if that is not going to happen then I would like to see Clwyd recieve some psychological help, have the majority of horses removed from him, and a close eye kept on him to ensure he doesn't get any more and the ball start rolling again.  I also have concerns about the way Michelle is running the show, taking on more horses than she herself appears to be able to afford or cope with, asking random strangers to come and help out (bearing in mind it appears one of her previous helpers used to sell loads of horses through Beeston and was known for 'standing up on their backs' in the ring.) and donate money to pay for a man to keep horses when he has already caused suffering.  Plus, donating cookers etc because they say he can't afford to live, yet he said he was spending £100 per week on his horses from his pension.  Well, he doesn't have as many horses now, and also, it is quite frankly his look out if he has chosen to live that way and have the horses instead of looking after himself.  Nobody, however much they donate etc etc, is going to do any good for him in the long run, because it is just making it a damn site easier for him to go out and get more and more.  Plus, the fact that Michelle was or is charging him £35 per week livery, but then asking for donations to help out, to me, is hardly 'charitable' on her behalf.  More of a business, laced with glory.
		
Click to expand...



I agree with this, he didnt want the money spent on the remaining horses, and didnt seem very interested in them. This is a mess of his own making and it should be him who has the cost of putting things right. 
The other horses should be removed, though maybe get someone who knows how to handle a horse to do it, as is normal for the rspca they made a ROYAL MESS OF IT!!


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## coralwings20 (12 January 2013)

exactly so im going to leave it. just feel for all the people that are donating to him when such registered charities like ERR are calling out for legit donations.


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## coralwings20 (12 January 2013)

not ERR i meant EMW :-\


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## debbie do dar (12 January 2013)

coralwings20 said:



			i have asked for details of the accountant in charge of the huge amount of donations rec'vd & been accused of being ignorant & nasty?! so, does anyone know who is registering the donation money & what it's being spent on? does clwyd or michelle rec the money? does it all go on the horses? where does the sale money go & how comes (if he is not breeding/collecting anymore) does he mantain to sell so many monthly as months ago he got the numbers down to 20?! 

i have no problem with donating but in a legit way 

Click to expand...

On which post/page did you ask? because i am admin on the page and i cant see where you have posted???????????????? enlighten me please? am flabbergasted at the amount of untruths many of you have been spouting on this thread, at no point on the support page have any of the admins or Michelle herself been untruthful if its been asked we respond (admitted i have made fun of H&H but who dosent!) and we have tried to direct anyone who wants to enquire about money horses shoe size to the right people. Am not going to start a debate with anyone but i can assure anyone who asks that everything that can possibly be done is being done to assist Clwyd and his horses, the right people are in place and do you no what if someone wants to send him a pair of wellies and a packet of biscuits then thats up to them! and also can i remind you all that being personal about Michelle is the lowest of the low, by all means have an adult debate about the program and its contact but leave the personal insults to the kids! NOW some one please point me in the direction where you were you have been accused of being ignorant & nasty....... Debbie


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

People have been carried away by an emotional reaction engineered by a manipulative piece of filming, IMO. There's a sort of mob mentality on the Fb page where no-one can post anything which even asks a question without being shouted down.

They're all blinded by their sentimental idea of who Clwyd is, which is nothing to do with the real man. Someone on there has said it will all evaporate when the next Fb story takes their attention, and that's possibly so.

I just hope it ends well for the horses, and for Clwyd himself. Somebody on this thread said what he chooses to do is his business. As regards himself, that's true of course. But when a man is found guilty of cruelty to animals surely the fate of any in his care is of public concern?


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## coralwings20 (12 January 2013)

its in black & white, anyone who dares question you is ignorant debbie. its all over the fb page & tbh some peoples comments have been deleted. am not arguing on apublic forum, will pm you will all of my concerns


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## debbie do dar (12 January 2013)

coralwings20 said:



			its in black & white, anyone who dares question you is ignorant debbie. its all over the fb page & tbh some peoples comments have been deleted. am not arguing on apublic forum, will pm you will all of my concerns 

Click to expand...

Yes please do but there IS nothing to hide! i have never said you are ignorant (cant even spell it!) and only three posts have been removed since the page started due to the nature and tone of them, I responded to yours and anothers post after i was called to remove you both, to which i have not and will not, I no people dont have the time to go through every single post but you kept asking the same things and it was responded too........ and i also stated to please PM me because even i cant keep up with the amount of posts.


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## coralwings20 (12 January 2013)

remove us for what?! for asking polite genuine questions?! then add further fb posts stating people are ignorant/nasty?! far from it - people asking questions similar to mine have been deleted which is very worrying. the only comments you leave on there are the ones supporting & giving money. 

i do so hope my worries are unfounded & that clwyd manages to stick to having a couple as petsrather than keep obtaining & selling


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

coralwings20 said:



			remove us for what?! for asking polite genuine questions?! then add further fb posts stating people are ignorant/nasty?! far from it - people asking questions similar to mine have been deleted which is very worrying. the only comments you leave on there are the ones supporting & giving money. 

i do so hope my worries are unfounded & that clwyd manages to stick to having a couple as petsrather than keep obtaining & selling 

Click to expand...

It wouldn't be the first FB page where only one pov is allowed and anyone else gets deleted, insulted, called a troll etc. 

No-one on that page wants discussion or to even consider there may be more to the story than victimized innocent Clwyd and evil the RSPCA 

Best leave them to it IMO. As I said before, I just hope it ends well when the circus is over.


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## coralwings20 (12 January 2013)

will do fiona


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## debbie do dar (12 January 2013)

coralwings20 said:



			remove us for what?! for asking polite genuine questions?! then add further fb posts stating people are ignorant/nasty?! far from it - people asking questions similar to mine have been deleted which is very worrying. the only comments you leave on there are the ones supporting & giving money. 

i do so hope my worries are unfounded & that clwyd manages to stick to having a couple as petsrather than keep obtaining & selling 

Click to expand...


Your worries are unfounded have some faith that many systems are in gear and the outcome will always be for the animals best interest, (makes a darn change i can tell you!) admitted its not been in the past but thats why Michelle is so valuable to not just Clwyd and his horses but to the likes of the RSPCA etc Can you also actually read my posts, i was asked by some to remove you I DID NOT and DID NOT WANT TO >look am using shouty capitals now grrr< remove you or anyone because for me personally i feel that everyone is initialled to air there concerns....i even got some info wrong today and had to apologise! never in a million years did i see the way the page would go and with that many people all vieing for post space somethings can get caught up and not responded too...Michelle has said she or clwyd have nothing to hide and i can see that....thats why i direct people to Michelle....


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## coralwings20 (12 January 2013)

thanks for clearing that up debbie. i doubt any of us will ever get the full "truth" but lets hope as others have said, the circus dies down & people stop giving to michelle/clwyd & to proper registered charities. michelle charging £35pw livery is hardly charitable, thought charity started at home?! i have some old nags in a rented field, anyone wanna give me some freebies & cash?!


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## debbie do dar (12 January 2013)

coralwings20 said:



			thanks for clearing that up debbie. i doubt any of us will ever get the full "truth" but lets hope as others have said, the circus dies down & people stop giving to michelle/clwyd & to proper registered charities. michelle charging £35pw livery is hardly charitable, thought charity started at home?! i have some old nags in a rented field, anyone wanna give me some freebies & cash?!
		
Click to expand...

grr this forum keeps logging me out! 

shes not charging him for livery lol  that is a private joke between the two of them...in fact you can see the humour and the irony in the shot... Any way please feel to ask if there is anything uncomfortable that sits with any of you just ask. you all no who i am on the page so message me there or here. OH and EMW are an amazing charity


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## Star_Chaser (12 January 2013)

Debbie Do Dah as you are directly involved could you confirm if Clywd has any of the herd still require rehoming or are for sale??  Having trawled the pages I have only been able to see the possibility of the cobs that have come from someone else.


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## competitiondiva (12 January 2013)

Can you also confirm if the donations are to assist him in keeping any and if so how many?


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## competitiondiva (12 January 2013)

Can you also explain why last night in reference to the picture of one of the seized horses, it was initially explained as a maRe with ple, but then that comment was deleted when the date was referred to, then they claimed it wasn't even one of his horses. Either you (or the poster) knows the horse and it's condition, or you don't????


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## debbie do dar (12 January 2013)

Star_Chaser said:



			Debbie Do Dah as you are directly involved could you confirm if Clywd has any of the herd still require rehoming or are for sale??  Having trawled the pages I have only been able to see the possibility of the cobs that have come from someone else.
		
Click to expand...

Yes she has some of his in her yard now which are undergoing handling and three colts waiting to be gelded, she also has some other horses/ponys in which are either undergoing the same esp handling, she is also, over the next few months reducing him down to hopefully 8 (baring in mind a court date is due in april) and she has committed to keeping an eye on him, worming the mares he will have and helping him with his personal life and his activity's, sadly at 68 he his stuck in his ways but he does see the severity of the situation he is in however that was plain to me when i spoke to him yesterday, there is no disputing that, Michelle really does need our support she has helped a lot of owners and horses where no one else would, and it would now seem that the elderly land owner needs help and support as well, so i am rooting for a good out come for all parties and Michelle has my support as well as Clwyd.... such a sad sad situation for them all to be in to be honest.


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## debbie do dar (12 January 2013)

competitiondiva said:



			Can you also explain why last night in reference to the picture of one of the seized horses, it was initially explained as a maRe with ple, but then that comment was deleted when the date was referred to, then they claimed it wasn't even one of his horses. Either you (or the poster) knows the horse and it's condition, or you don't????
		
Click to expand...

AWR that was me because michelle and I had talked about one of the horses having PLE and i jumped to the conclusion that the horse in the photo was the one, i was corrected and felt i should remove my misleading post!


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## Girlychu (12 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			You have asked me this before I think fburton.

I think the actions of the RSPCA were proportionate and just, and the only option left.  - *Well said!*

Ideally, I don't think any person who has been found guilty of causing unnecessary suffering should be in possession of any animal.  Harsh on him maybe, but I don't for one second believe he was that fussed about them anyway, given the fact the documentary itself said that he 'was disgruntled that the proceeds of the sales were going to have to be spent on wormers etc for the remaining ones'.  I can't believe that people seem to have clouded over that bit!  - *Totally Agree*

However, if that is not going to happen then I would like to see Clwyd recieve some psychological help, have the majority of horses removed from him, and a close eye kept on him to ensure he doesn't get any more and the ball start rolling again.  I also have concerns about the way Michelle is running the show, taking on more horses than she herself appears to be able to afford or cope with, asking random strangers to come and help out (bearing in mind it appears one of her previous helpers used to sell loads of horses through Beeston and was known for 'standing up on their backs' in the ring.) and donate money to pay for a man to keep horses when he has already caused suffering.  Plus, donating cookers etc because they say he can't afford to live, yet he said he was spending £100 per week on his horses from his pension.  Well, he doesn't have as many horses now, and also, it is quite frankly his look out if he has chosen to live that way and have the horses instead of looking after himself.  Nobody, however much they donate etc etc, is going to do any good for him in the long run, because it is just making it a damn site easier for him to go out and get more and more.  Plus, the fact that Michelle was or is charging him £35 per week livery, but then asking for donations to help out, to me, is hardly 'charitable' on her behalf.  More of a business, laced with glory.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure all those who are donating/assisting/helping are doing it with the best intentions, I just wonder if they will continue to so indefinitely because I also suspect that he will continue to hoard/breed.  

I'm afraid I don't see Clywd as a simpleton, I see him as a man who at one time was a shrewd business man. He must have been making money when he was a respected breeder.

He now chooses to hoard horses, squat in a derelict farm house and opt out of the "system". He also chose to spend his pension on his ponies - freedom of choice - and he knew that the care his ponies received was inadequate yet he didn't ask for help, again his choice. 

I can't help thinking that he may well be embarrassed by all the attention that he is currently under going and there is more to this story than was given in the programme.

I for one think there is far more worth causes out there that need donations/help urgently.


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## competitiondiva (12 January 2013)

Agree with you there, as I said earlier, is the plan to rehome ALL his horses? Or is that dependant on his sentencing in April???


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## lula (12 January 2013)

debbie do dar said:



			Michelle really does need our support she has helped a lot of owners and horses where no one else would, and it would now seem that the elderly land owner needs help and support as well,
		
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heh!

Timing coincidence, much?
 Expect he's seen how well all this charity & donations, publicity is working out so well for Clywd

they may be' lovable old rogues' but they sure 'aint stupid!


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## coralwings20 (12 January 2013)

anyone else seen this?? not for the faint hearted - would people still donate after seeing these distressing photos??

http://horsegossip.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=guests&action=display&thread=151650


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## competitiondiva (12 January 2013)

Wow coralwings,  just goes to show you the power of television and how slanted it can be, disgusted, thank God the RSPCA are prosecuting looking at those pictures......


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

coralwings20 said:



			anyone else seen this?? not for the faint hearted - would people still donate after seeing these distressing photos??

http://horsegossip.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=guests&action=display&thread=151650

Click to expand...

That's utterly horrific. Assuming those photos really were taken at his place, it's not surprising he was found guilty. 

Wherever those photos were taken, it's heartbreaking. That little grey had clearly broken her leg some time ago and it has tried to heal itself into that shape.


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## Archangel (12 January 2013)

I'm speechless.


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## ester (12 January 2013)

the programme never stated what the 6 cases he pleaded guilty to were. They also never said what was wrong with the little black that the RSPCA took.

Given how slow they are to act with horses generally I was surprised if there was nothing the programme wasn't avoiding that the RSPCA knew. 

I didn't really feel sorry for him watching the programme and anyone who takes on another stallion and chucks it in a field with mares and foals is a tit at the very least.


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## joeanne (12 January 2013)

If the guy has committed and act of cruelty/neglect (which clearly he had as he went on to plead guilty to 6 counts of neglect) then its right he should be prosecuted....BUT and here is the but.....
This is an old man who clearly has mental health issues. Whilst I am not condoning what has happened, there are FAR worse animals out there whom really need help yet the RSPCA turn their backs on them.
And worst of all, like it or not, Michelle has exploited the whole thing to her gain. 
Begging for donations, yet selling Clywds horses at vastly inflated prices.
It clearly states in the program Michelle was charging him £35 a week livery. 
And the old man himself was heard to say he did not believe that the paultry sum he was getting was fair. 
To sell ONE horse for £400 would cover wormer for the whole herd and if bought in bulk, would probably see him through a good six months. Michelle has sold more than one horse.....yet is begging for donations and money from Joe Public.


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## cheeryplatypus (12 January 2013)

coralwings20 said:



			anyone else seen this?? not for the faint hearted - would people still donate after seeing these distressing photos??

http://horsegossip.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=guests&action=display&thread=151650

Click to expand...

Absolutely awful 
Poor, poor ponies.


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## Amymay (12 January 2013)

Lord....


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## ester (12 January 2013)

have you seen the most recent link Joeanne? Because if those pics are correct these animals very much did need the RSPCAs help.


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## competitiondiva (12 January 2013)

And without prosecuting him, what's to stop him going out and getting a load more once these have been sorted.... Those pics in that thread were from 2008! So this is a recurring problem which only a court can stop...


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## Girlychu (12 January 2013)

So sad....oh Lord


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## Mrs. Jingle (12 January 2013)

OMG! Those pictures, I really hope they serve the purpose of bringing some of these crazy followers of this man and his equally culpable lady friend to their senses. So distressing, horse rescuers my a***e.


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

Can anyone think of any way of verifying they're really Clwyd's ponies in those photos? 

The photos are so upsetting. That poor mare, and I wonder what sort of deaths those dead ones suffered before being left to rot on the ground?


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## djlynwood (12 January 2013)

Is there any way to verify if those pictures are true?


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## Patterdale (12 January 2013)

Good Lord......those pictures are HORRIFIC. 

That poor, poor mare with the broken leg.

Whatever 'issues' this man may have, I'm afraid there are NO excuses for that. Those dead ones must have been there for a good while. 

And people are giving money to this man so he can KEEP his horses!?

I notice Debbie has gone quiet since that link surfaced.....


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## djlynwood (12 January 2013)

Oops cross posted Fionam12.
Those pics are very upsetting.


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## Patterdale (12 January 2013)

I think the program makers have a lot to answer for...


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## coralwings20 (12 January 2013)

sorry, didnt mean to upset anyonebut this needs to be stopped & NOW! people need to stop buying/donating. but couldntpost this on their fb page as would obviously be deleted.


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

coralwings20 said:



			sorry, didnt mean to upset anyonebut this needs to be stopped & NOW! people need to stop buying/donating. but couldntpost this on their fb page as would obviously be deleted.
		
Click to expand...

Someone has posted it. Not deleted yet.


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

djlynwood said:



			Is there any way to verify if those pictures are true?
		
Click to expand...

There's a woman on FB says she knows the girl who took the photos, and that they are genuine and definitely his. Not proof, but something.


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## Ibblebibble (12 January 2013)

Patterdale said:



			I think the program makers have a lot to answer for...
		
Click to expand...

absolutely, very misleading programme


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## Archangel (12 January 2013)

It would explain why
(a) he was chucked off his previous land
(b) he wasn't distressed to see the dead foal.


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## coralwings20 (12 January 2013)

also, post on from the cousin of the owner of the land stating that clwyd is wanted off of the property - another post slating this forum post. people dont like truth :'(


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## ISHmad (12 January 2013)

Could the RSPCA verify they were his horses at his previous dwelling? As the poster on here who was taken there said they reported him to them.

And also, have those images been forwarded to Channel 4? Sod follow up programmes about Clwyd skipping off into the sunset, they need to see the other side of things. The FB page has been driving people to e mail C4 for follow up shows. 

More publicity, more donations for the non registered Charitys PayPal account?  I don't doubt Clwyd needs support for his mental and emotional health. But this needs to be got under control now and people need to see the whole picture not just as portrayed on TV.

RIP all the horses who passed in his hands


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## Moomin1 (12 January 2013)

This is exactly why the press need stopping.  The biased crap that they come out with could cause untold suffering. The media stinks.


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## Ibblebibble (12 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			This is exactly why the press need stopping.  The biased crap that they come out with could cause untold suffering. The media stinks.
		
Click to expand...

now don't faint but i agree with you Moomin!! 
in this case a neglectful owner has been portrayed as a lovable lost soul and countless people have parted with hard earned cash to support him
I like to try and not judge and take people as i find them but in this case the real picture is much worse than i think any of us were imagining.
I may not like the rspca and how they sometimes act but channel 4 has pulled the wool over a lot of peoples eyes in this case


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## ossy (12 January 2013)

I assume this is the same guy as well 
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/farming-...tenant-vows-to-fight-eviction-55578-22785329/


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## lula (12 January 2013)

unbelievable

there are still posters on the fb page turning them inside out to try to justify the pictures on the recent link posted

'that was 5 years ago

'he''s moved properties since then'

' the chestnuts look ok - (as in not deformed, injured or dead i assume he means)

it really sickens me that they're shown a half hour edited program of someone's life they decide they like him so will defend his deeds to the death.

so hypocritical when similar people's actions they will turn into a baying mob for horse abuse like this yet because they think they know him and he's 'sweet' its blindly defended.

people make me want to hurl sometimes, especially the blindly following facebook non thinking for themselves keyboard fb mobs


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## horsesatemymoney (12 January 2013)

Oh jeez, I don't think I'll ever get that grey mare's face out of my head. Such kind eyes and an honest face, and she's like that. I think it needs verifying that it is definately him, and if so needs sending to CH4 and he needs to be banned for life. 

Moomin, you might be able to answer this, what does one have to do to be banned from keeping horses for life by any welfare organisation- as if this isn't enough, then what the hell is? (Only asking you as I'm guessing you work in this area and I'm interested to know) So sad poor, poor horses.


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## horsesatemymoney (12 January 2013)

lula said:



			unbelievable

there are still posters on the fb page turning them inside out to try to justify the pictures on the recent link posted

'that was 5 years ago

'he''s moved properties since then'

' the chestnuts look ok - (as in not deformed, injured or dead i assume he means)

it really sickens me that they're shown a half hour edited program of someone's life they decide they like him so will defend his deeds to the death.

so hypocritical when similar people's actions they will turn into a baying mob for horse abuse like this yet because they think they know him and he's 'sweet' its blindly defended.

people make me want to hurl sometimes, especially the blindly following facebook non thinking for themselves keyboard fb mobs
		
Click to expand...

I don't see how horse lovers can defend that, ever.


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## Amaranta (12 January 2013)

God I feel sick at the thought of what that grey mare suffered.

First to admit, I was suckered


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## joeanne (12 January 2013)

ester said:



			have you seen the most recent link Joeanne? Because if those pics are correct these animals very much did need the RSPCAs help.
		
Click to expand...

If they are truely Clywds horses then yes I would have to totally agree.....


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

ossy said:



			I assume this is the same guy as well 
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/farming-...tenant-vows-to-fight-eviction-55578-22785329/

Click to expand...

Your link doesn't work.


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## competitiondiva (12 January 2013)

Only a court can apply any ban/disqualification and/or confiscation.


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## guesstimation (12 January 2013)

If they are as said it's just sickening and more proof what idiots people are jumping on something based on a tv programme and not looking into it further first. Problem is if this proves to be his horses people will still carry on to save face


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

Amaranta said:



			God I feel sick at the thought of what that grey mare suffered.

First to admit, I was suckered 

Click to expand...

Me too. 

When I watched the film I was taken in, it was only later the emotional reaction faded and I started to think for myself.


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## ossy (12 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			Your link doesn't work. 

Click to expand...

No it dosen't anymore, how strange. 

If you go to yahoo sear Clywd Davies Tenant and rather than click the link click on the Cached bit, that still takes you to it.


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## guesstimation (12 January 2013)

I'm not all for the rspca with the loading still  but I've also not been against them pointing out if they'd done nothing they'd be uproar, imagine if those photos we're put about saying we saw this suffering rang rspca they did nothing they'd be outrage and that would be a reasonable response!


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## brighteyes (12 January 2013)

Can someone do a FB page entitled Support for Clwyd Davies (NOT) and post the HG pictures? And people can put the truth and keep doing sneaky links on the first support page?


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## Moomin1 (12 January 2013)

The rspca will usually ask for a ban on all animals in any prosecution they take where someone has been found guilty of causing suffering.  The outcome of that however is so varied between different magistrates that it boggles the mind.  Sadly, there are some shocking cases which magistrates don't feel the need to impose a ban, and by the same token some have imposed a ban on fairly minor stuff.  :-( .  That being said, there are some fantastic outcomes and most of the time are more than satisfactory


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## competitiondiva (12 January 2013)

Ossy managed to find it the long way, yes same person, and that is exactly the attitude I suspected!!!


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## horsesatemymoney (12 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			The rspca will usually ask for a ban on all animals in any prosecution they take where someone has been found guilty of causing suffering.  The outcome of that however is so varied between different magistrates that it boggles the mind.  Sadly, there are some shocking cases which magistrates don't feel the need to impose a ban, and by the same token some have imposed a ban on fairly minor stuff.  :-( .  That being said, there are some fantastic outcomes and most of the time are more than satisfactory
		
Click to expand...

I wonder why they didn't take them when they saw this, or is it likely to be the magistrate? I know in the programme, they kept referring to things being bad before, but now it had been addressed- I don't think I knew what bad was until I saw those pictures


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## Achinghips (12 January 2013)

Well I was well and truely suckered! Gob smacked!


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## Dry Rot (12 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			This is exactly why the press need stopping.  The biased crap that they come out with could cause untold suffering. The media stinks.
		
Click to expand...

So, you believe in Press censorship but not in the RSPCA being investigated?


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## PonyIAmNotFood (12 January 2013)

I was completely taken in, how awful the truth is  the programme makers ought to be ashamed.


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## competitiondiva (12 January 2013)

Investigated for what dry rot?


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## Moomin1 (12 January 2013)

Err please tell me where I have ever said they shouldn't be?  Stop trying to just argue about the rspca fgs, this is about suffering horses


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## Ibblebibble (12 January 2013)

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/WALES...+off+farm;+Tenant,+65,+vows+to...-a0192611507
another link to the newspaper article


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## miss_wilson (12 January 2013)

http://horsegossip.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=guests&action=display&thread=151650


Was shocked to read this thread!! Some of the pictures aren't nice you have been warned


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## Amaranta (12 January 2013)

I am absolutely horrified by this, but would like to ask the question:

Why did the RSPCA not do something FIVE years ago?


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

Amaranta said:



			I am absolutely horrified by this, but would like to ask the question:

Why did the RSPCA not do something FIVE years ago?
		
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Things do take a long time to come to court. Could the current court case date back that far?


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## Girlychu (12 January 2013)

Amaranta said:



			I am absolutely horrified by this, but would like to ask the question:

Why did the RSPCA not do something FIVE years ago?
		
Click to expand...

Good question....


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## ester (12 January 2013)

I did wonder whether that incident was what the court case referred to, not sure how long it would have taken to bring to court.


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

This forum's a strange place. 

A few days ago, the theme was, poor Clwyd davies, lovely man, evil RSPCA being mena to him.

Now it's omg Clwyd Davies was so cruel! Evil RSPCA not acting soon enough.


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## Amymay (12 January 2013)

Be interesting to know what the programme makers make of this 'possible' turn of events, and the rspca response....


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

amymay said:



			Be interesting to know what the programme makers make of this 'possible' turn of events, and the rspca response....
		
Click to expand...

I doubt they care. The crew made an entertaining film, and probably knew much more but chose to take one side only. They didn't actually lie, just carefully edited. I shouldn't think horse welfare's that big a deal to them.

It was an appealing angle, the little guy down on his luck against powerful authority. The announcer before it started even said it was asking do we care more about animals than people. 

Or am I just cynical?


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## Copperpot (12 January 2013)

I never thought poor Clwyd. I thought poor horses. He had a choice as to how he lives, they don't. Call me cynical but I don't believe for a minute he knows nothing about worming and proper horse care. I know he has had a tragic incident in loosing his daughter but, other people have experienced the same and it's no excuse to let animals suffer because of it.


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## sherry90 (12 January 2013)

The thing that worries me most is the 'sheeple' saying that many are believing photos that are not yet verified to be Clwyds horses shown. Yet, they happily follow the others to praise him and Michelle and some even laugh about the bath scene saying he will soon bring his own 'woodland bath range'? I feel it is all snow balling into a Facebook band wagon that will soon die down. However, his horses will still continue to suffer. 
He doesn't need money for food, shelter or clothes. He gets a pension, if he went to his local council he could potentially get assistance from them for shelter etc. the horses on the other hand rely on people to care for them which he is not doing.
I think the best thing for the RSPCA to do would be to seize them all (not sure they have the legal power), failing that, a Judge needs to court order him to be prohibited from owning any animal for life. Im afraid it would boil down to survival of the fittest in that herd now and it seems the weaker one met its fate 
I also agree that the RSPCA's loading technique left a lot to be desired but I squirmed at the way in which Michelle and friend pulled the other into the stable by its tail. Surely that would cause some contortion of the spine?! Or at least some future handling problems. 
Some people are writing him letters of support! Support for what, why would a horse lover support someone who has caused so many counts of neglect! It's beyond me!


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

I've been banned form posting on the Facebook page for asking awkward questions!


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## Amymay (12 January 2013)

What is the Facebook page please?


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## Copperpot (12 January 2013)

Lol. I had to reply to some girl on there who said said he respected Clwyd for going without to care for his horses. Pointed out his horses rather went without as well and I don't respect people who let horses suffer.


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

amymay said:



			What is the Facebook page please?
		
Click to expand...

http://www.facebook.com/SupportForClwydDaviesAndHisHorses

It's called Support for Clwyd Davies and his horses. Admin have just removed all the negative remarks, photos and links casting doubt on Mr Davies, also anyone asking awkward questions!


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

Copperpot said:



			Lol. I had to reply to some girl on there who said said he respected Clwyd for going without to care for his horses. Pointed out his horses rather went without as well and I don't respect people who let horses suffer.
		
Click to expand...

You do know you'll get banned, don't you?  Don't diss the "Welsh hero" or "the new Monty Roberts" as I've seen him called on there.


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## guesstimation (12 January 2013)

Facebook group. http://m.facebook.com/home.php#!/SupportForClwydDaviesAndHisHorses?ref=stream&__user=0

I don't get how people believe 100% the TV programme and stuff they're told by strangers on Feb but won't then believe these photos!  I'm not judging it one way or other til it all comes out officially what is and isn't m this odd to whole heartedly believe one side of a story and not even consider the other


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## Copperpot (12 January 2013)

Ooo I shall do my best to get banned  embrace your banning like a badge of honour


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## Shadow the Reindeer (12 January 2013)

https://www.facebook.com/SupportForClwydDaviesAndHisHorses/posts/407702455977473

Michelle has responded to recent events.


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## Shettie (12 January 2013)

There is also a group that Michelle runs called Wrexham Rescue Horses


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## ester (12 January 2013)

I'd like Michelle/someone to mention what the prosecutions were for if these were not it then. Presumably possibly the march 2011 when she says some were in poor condition?


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## sherry90 (12 January 2013)

Could someone post the link of the RSPCA announcement and photo Hannah Stanfields comment? I can't find the link now :/


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

Shadeyoak said:



https://www.facebook.com/SupportForClwydDaviesAndHisHorses/posts/407702455977473

Michelle has responded to recent events.
		
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Yes, it seems she can't say the photos aren't Clwyd's ponies as she didn't know him then but she doubts it. Makes some dark noises about his solicitor and a smear campaign. Also says Clwyd didn't understand how to worm horses (despite decades of being reputable horse breeder) 

All the doubters have been dumped off the group and everyone's on about what a hero he is again.  It's madness.


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## Shadow the Reindeer (12 January 2013)

Michelle Crowther
Regarding the horrible photographs posted on some forums - 

I will not defend anybody's right to allow horses to live and die in these conditions.

Without speaking to Clwyd I cannot confirm whether or not they were Clwyd's horses. However I doubt it because there would have been evidence of a prosecution at this time and there is none. That the RSPCA were called and ignored such cruelty seems most unlikely. 

The photographs and posts have been copied and sent to Clwyd's solicitor. It seems likely that they are evidence of a smear campaign.

However, I met Clwyd in June 2009 and have never seen conditions like that in the time I have known him. In Feb/March 2011 some of his horses were in very poor condition and needed some intervention. One problem was inadequate worming because Clwyd did not understand the different types of worms and how to treat them properly. We addressed this as quickly as possible and the condition of the horses improved. A further problem was the number of colts. We targeted these and brought them to the rescue centre for taming, worming, microchipping, passporting etc. In total 30 beautiful, healthy, useful horses and ponies were rehomed. Currently Clwyd has 22 horses which are in beautiful condition. We still have approximately 12 to catch and rehome, leaving Clwyd hopefully with less than 10 older mares and no stallion. 

My remit has been at all times to help Clwyd to help his horses which he does indeed love.


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## amandap (12 January 2013)

Amaranta said:



			I am absolutely horrified by this, but would like to ask the question:

Why did the RSPCA not do something FIVE years ago?
		
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If these are photos of this mans horses at a previous farm then I agree. 

Whoever the horses in those photos belong to the photos show past and ongoing severe neglect and suffering and surely there is a procedure for immediate seizure?
Yes humans/owners have rights but at that level of neglect they should be forced to forfeit them and immediately.


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## sherry90 (12 January 2013)

*waves* can I join the kicked out club now too?!

In all seriousness I am upset as people are now being blinkered from the potential truth ( not saying just truth yet as its not 100%) However, I just posted the link up directing attention to the RSPCA twitter post and have now been removed along with my comment. 
It's distressing and worrying that so many horse lovers out there are being blinded by a biased 30 minute documentary that only glanced over this mans history with horses.


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## Amymay (12 January 2013)

The poster of the photos says that the horses were reported and the grey mare destroyed.....


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

amymay said:



			The poster of the photos says that the horses were reported and the grey mare destroyed.....
		
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Poor little grey mare, whether she was his or not.  It's awful to think what she must have gone through and how long she'd been hobbling round with a broken leg.


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## Mongoose11 (12 January 2013)

Sorry where is the proof that the neglected animals on that thread are linked with Clywd or have I missed it?


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## guesstimation (12 January 2013)

I don't think there is any yet its all hearsay on both sides I'm hoping RSPCA will make some kind of statement so we know what is true and what isn't

I have to stop reading the fb group now I keep going to comment as its winding me up then deciding better of it!  Not worth it


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## Fii (12 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			Sorry where is the proof that the neglected animals on that thread are linked with Clywd or have I missed it?
		
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just what i was wondering!


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## Patterdale (12 January 2013)

There isn't any proof.....yet. 
Those photos really, really shocked me and my immediate reaction was just utter disgust. 

However, on reflection......yes it was horrible, particularly that poor, poor grey mare - but there ISN'T any proof just yet that they were his. 

That Michelle posted, seemingly quite honestly, that she didn't know until she can ask him. 

I'm still not too sure about her but she does seem to be conducting herself quite well on the Facebook page, and trying to answer things honestly. 

I still stand by my comments about the RSPCAs failings, but these were of a general nature and not confined to this case. My dislike of the RSPCA stems more from their political motives. 

BUT this has taught me an awful lot about not believing everything you see or read. 

And to this end, I can't believe that those pictures are his horses until there is proof, which, if if exists, will no doubt surface soon


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## horsesatemymoney (12 January 2013)

Patterdale said:



			There isn't any proof.....yet. 
Those photos really, really shocked me and my immediate reaction was just utter disgust. 

However, on reflection......yes it was horrible, particularly that poor, poor grey mare - but there ISN'T any proof just yet that they were his. 

That Michelle posted, seemingly quite honestly, that she didn't know until she can ask him. 

I'm still not too sure about her but she does seem to be conducting herself quite well on the Facebook page, and trying to answer things honestly. 

I still stand by my comments about the RSPCAs failings, but these were of a general nature and not confined to this case. My dislike of the RSPCA stems more from their political motives. 

BUT this has taught me an awful lot about not believing everything you see or read. 

And to this end, I can't believe that those pictures are his horses until there is proof, which, if if exists, will no doubt surface soon 

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Whoever owned that poor grey, and the deceased ones, should be ashamed of themselves.


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## Star_Chaser (12 January 2013)

debbie do dar said:



			Yes she has some of his in her yard now which are undergoing handling and three colts waiting to be gelded, she also has some other horses/ponys in which are either undergoing the same esp handling, she is also, over the next few months reducing him down to hopefully 8 (baring in mind a court date is due in april) and she has committed to keeping an eye on him, worming the mares he will have and helping him with his personal life and his activity's, sadly at 68 he his stuck in his ways but he does see the severity of the situation he is in however that was plain to me when i spoke to him yesterday, there is no disputing that, Michelle really does need our support she has helped a lot of owners and horses where no one else would, and it would now seem that the elderly land owner needs help and support as well, so i am rooting for a good out come for all parties and Michelle has my support as well as Clwyd.... such a sad sad situation for them all to be in to be honest.
		
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Thank you.  Will what is available be posted somewhere for interested parties at the end of the day the horses still need a home and that should be the priority no matter what all the hoo har is that is going on.


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## Fii (12 January 2013)

horsesatemychristmasmoney said:



			Whoever owned that poor grey, and the deceased ones, should be ashamed of themselves.
		
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Absolutely!!
 But if i posted those pics, or ones like them and said the horses belonged to you, you might be a tad miffed!
 I am holding back on this until it has been proved they belonged to this man!


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## paddi22 (12 January 2013)

the girl who posted them seems very confident to stand behind them. 

I got blocked from the facebook site and i've never been blocked in my life from a site. i was entirely reasonable as i really believe the only way to debate stuff is to stay understated and logical. It's hilarious i was blocked. I had posted harmless questions, so now i really do believe the site is dodgy/misguided. 

I feel sorry for any person with mental health issues, but turning him into some kind of fairytale character, and allowing him to keep horses he is unable for, is just completely wrong and no-one comes out of it properly.


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## Patterdale (12 January 2013)

Also lets not forget he's squatting on a farm owned by an 80yr old man who's allegedly been trying to move him off the land for years and has had no end of stress over it. 
He is effectively fly grazing his horses there.


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## sherry90 (12 January 2013)

Michelle has confirmed that she has checked the markings of the horse and it is not one a his. Not sure which picture she is referring to but I just thought I would let you all know.


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## Patterdale (12 January 2013)

But if she didn't know him then, how would she know the markings of all his countless horses??
Plus you couldn't see any markings on the poor dead ones...

Not convinced either way I'm afraid.


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

sherry90 said:



			Michelle has confirmed that she has checked the markings of the horse and it is not one a his. Not sure which picture she is referring to but I just thought I would let you all know.
		
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What?  She's already said those horses (and there are more than one) would have been from before she knew him?


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

sherry90 said:



			Michelle has confirmed that she has checked the markings of the horse and it is not one a his. Not sure which picture she is referring to but I just thought I would let you all know.
		
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Where does she say this? I can't find it on the Fb page. I'm sorry but this doesn't make any sense. She didn't know him in 2008!


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

The convicted neglect is nothing like the level of neglect shown within these photos. If the story is true and he was convicted over the neglect shown in them, as suggested by the person claiming to have taken them, then it would be very unlikely that he would have received such a light sentence in the supposed second neglect case that we saw televised. He would have been banned for life from keeping animals if the set of photos were indeed linked to him and the RSPCA were then involved. Am I the only one thinking even slightly outside the box here?


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## scrunchie (13 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			Where does she say this? I can't find it on the Fb page. I'm sorry but this doesn't make any sense. She didn't know him in 2008!
		
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It's under Hannah Stansfield comment on the right hand side of the page.


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## sherry90 (13 January 2013)

She says it under 'recent posts by others' scroll down to Hannah Stansfields' post about the 'Flicker picture' its under there. I think this is the chestnut picture not the grey with the leg by the way.


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## FionaM12 (13 January 2013)

sherry90 said:



			She says it under 'recent posts by others' scroll down to Hannah Stansfields' post about the 'Flicker picture' its under there. I think this is the chestnut picture not the grey with the leg by the way.
		
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She is talking about the official RSPCA photo it seems. So she's claiming the RSPCA made that up. Serious allegation.


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## Patterdale (13 January 2013)

No billie you're not


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## competitiondiva (13 January 2013)

Billie from what I'd read he hasn't been sentenced yet, sentencing is in April?


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## cronkmooar (13 January 2013)

I'm truly shocked by those photos.

I have no idea if they are true representation of fact but the photos have been checked by an unconnected party on HG and they all were taken at the same time in May 2008 - this information is on photobucket for those that are technical and want to check.

They do not appear to be just random photos.

There have also been quite a few confirmations that this person did live where the girl is claiming he did until about three years ago.

I think in all probability that these photos are genuine and I am so glad that I checked on here before watching that program and deleted it without watching


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## natalia (13 January 2013)

For gods sake what is wrong with Michelle getting paid to take in these animals?!? £35 a week is nothing, they probably eat £25 of that in hay and then she has her staff and time costs, not to mention other costs of running the yard! The fact she's helping him At all is good in my book, rather than looking the other way. If those people who took the photos were bothered rather than calling the RSPCA they could have at least set the ball rolling and done the same thing. I know if I went there I wouldn't have left the property without seeing the grey mare PTS on the spot, even if I had to pay my own vet to do it. It's all very well people condemning the fact they are trying to get some money back for these animals but the fact of life is helping animals does cost money! If I were to take in an emergency horse as an RSPCA safe house I would be paid full livery rates by the charity. Which is considerably more than £35 a week! People on here need to get a grip and realise that. As for the whole situation in Wales, the aim is so I am told to get the herd down to ten older mares only, no stallion. Properly cared for there is no reason this shouldn't be perfectly ok.


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

CD - am I am speaking hypothetically. Suggesting that if those pics were of his horses and representative of a previous case against him then there would be record of it.


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## russianhorse (13 January 2013)

I'll be honest, I have no idea what the truth is. I think it's crazy people are donating in all honesty - I think the set up they had on the programme was ideal as in Michelle taking them, selling them and using the money to cover her costs, for the remaining horses treatment and the left over monies to him. I found the programme sad, but he chose to live like that and was happy as he was. It just was incredibly sad about the way he has dealt with the loss of his daughter

I agree the programme was very one sided and aimed to pull heart strings which it did (although if I watched it for a second time, I expect I'd watch it with more of an objective view)

However the RSPCA trying to catch that pony was so awful that it didn't show them in a good light whatsoever. On thd flip side, I wasn't impressed on how Michelle and that other girl were yanking on that ponies tail 

What I don't understand is a) why no one is confirming what the charges fof neglect were - was it just for not listening to the RSPCAs advice of not getting , down to an agreed number, and the pending charges went ahead (I.e lack of worming, teeth etc) - the programme certainly suggested that and the sentence he got was very light IMO. 

B) why have the RSPCA stayed so silent? They are usually the first on front of publicity - and kets be honest, they woukd have been better saying something because the orogramme made it look like they are a bunch of numpties  If those pictures are true was he not prosecuted for the cruelty of those poor horses? If so, why is no one in a position to confirm this?  - and why was his recent sentance so light? 

Usually I come across media of pictures with imaginable cruelty of owners that have been prosecuted, but this time it seems it is silent, and yet those pictures circulating are horrendous

Come on RSPCA stand up and say something, especially if people are now donating their head earned cash and making him into a hero ......


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## brighteyes (13 January 2013)

sherry90 said:



			Michelle has confirmed that she has checked the markings of the horse and it is not one a his. Not sure which picture she is referring to but I just thought I would let you all know.
		
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Have I missed where the date of the picture was taken can be found? Is this single horse photo supposed to be a recent seizure?


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## brighteyes (13 January 2013)

natalia said:



			For gods sake what is wrong with Michelle getting paid to take in these animals?!? £35 a week is nothing, they probably eat £25 of that in hay and then she has her staff and time costs, not to mention other costs of running the yard! The fact she's helping him At all is good in my book, rather than looking the other way. If those people who took the photos were bothered rather than calling the RSPCA they could have at least set the ball rolling and done the same thing. I know if I went there I wouldn't have left the property without seeing the grey mare PTS on the spot, even if I had to pay my own vet to do it. It's all very well people condemning the fact they are trying to get some money back for these animals but the fact of life is helping animals does cost money! If I were to take in an emergency horse as an RSPCA safe house I would be paid full livery rates by the charity. Which is considerably more than £35 a week! People on here need to get a grip and realise that. As for the whole situation in Wales, the aim is so I am told to get the herd down to ten older mares only, no stallion. Properly cared for there is no reason this shouldn't be perfectly ok.
		
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Nothing, except it should have been made perfectly clear she takes the 'decent' ones in, charges for all costs in relation to their rehab and gives anything, if there _is_ anything left over from the sale to CD.  I'm thinking she doesn't cut the colts as this would add to her costs and they wouldn't necessarily be recouped. I wouldn't do it for nothing and she just appeared weary of his endless overbreeding and therefore her neverending task.  I am not sure how lucrative it is for her. The impression given was that it was a bit of nuisance.


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## coralwings20 (13 January 2013)

Natalia - the point is is that Clwyd & Michelle are raking in the monetary donations as well as people buying these horses hay/hard feed/rugs and equipment so why does Michelle need to charge £35.00 pw per horse as she is selling approx 10 a month so thats approx £350.00 a week with no overheads other than electric/water/time?!  The other thing that confuses me is that colts are still being sold such as a 4 year old TB that has never raced so why not geld before selling (with the vast amounts of money being dontated). Also, the documentary was filmed in the summer so some 6 months ago - Clwyd 6 months ago had cut down to around 22 horses but Debbie has stated that "he still has 22 horses" so selling 10 a month = 60 horses (more than he had to start) so can't anyone else see that this is a money making scheme that Michelle benefits from? 

Do people not remember that poor foal that was killed becuase Clwyd decided to simply turn another 10 horses out with the already established herd (inc. colts/stallions) & Michelle just said "oh Clwyd". This image will haunt me but neither of them seemed shocked/upset?!

My heart goes out to Clwyd losing his precious daughter - he is still suffering and will do til his day comes. SS need to get involved and find Clwyd some sheltered accomodation as he has no heating/hot water and it's winter. Clwyd needs help with his hoarding but not the sort of help Michelle is offering - making money (alot of) out of a sad old man. The RSPCA need to be informed of the vast donations so that they can ensure that the money is spent of the "present" horses not ones that come from the markets to sell.


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## CalllyH (13 January 2013)

After the programme I nearly rang the feed shop they use to donate a couple of bales of hay or a bag of feed but having seen the Facebook page I am absolutely unconvinced we know the full picture and exactly what the real financial state is and will be 'unliking' the page today.

I am not prepared to donate to someone who won't help themselves. The Facebook page talks about getting his horse numbers down to 12 but to be perfectly honest why should he have any when he can't pay for them and it's not his land in the first place.


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## lula (13 January 2013)

Shadeyoak said:



			Michelle Crowther
Regarding the horrible photographs posted on some forums - 

The photographs and posts have been copied and sent to Clwyd's solicitor. It seems likely that they are evidence of a smear campaign.
		
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just have to lol for a minute at how a man that apparently cant afford heating or hot water can afford a solicitor.


srsly though, what upsets me bout these fb groups is i notice the same fb posters crop up again and again whenever a new fb group page is set up over the latest horsey scandal/drama or the day and they believe what they're told religiously and dont seem to have any thought for themselves

some of them can get down right nasty if anyone dares so much as question them. Some (by far though, not all) are barely literate and seem to be the ones that shout the loudest.

i do from the bottom of my heart think that the admin's intentions are good and seeing people willing to help others i have utmost respect for.

 What i dont like is the mob, sheep like mentality that seems to take over these groups where a lot of them blindly believe what they're told and tow the 'official admin line' with out question and shout down anyone that does as 'trolls' and 'troublemakers'.

some people really are sheep and love to find solidarity in a mob.


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## brighteyes (13 January 2013)

CalllyH said:



			After the programme I nearly rang the feed shop they use to donate a couple of bales of hay or a bag of feed but having seen the Facebook page I am absolutely unconvinced we know the full picture and exactly what the real financial state is and will be 'unliking' the page today.

I am not prepared to donate to someone who won't help themselves. The Facebook page talks about getting his horse numbers down to 12 but to be perfectly honest why should he have any when he can't pay for them and it's not his land in the first place.
		
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I'd give that opinion 10 seconds on the FB page. Max.


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## brighteyes (13 January 2013)

lula said:



just have to lol for a minute at how a man that apparently cant afford heating or hot water can afford a solicitor.


srsly though, what upsets me bout these fb groups is i notice the same fb posters crop up again and again whenever a new fb group page is set up over the latest horsey scandal/drama or the day and they believe what they're told religiously and dont seem to have any thought for themselves

some of them can get down right nasty if anyone dares so much as question them. Some (by far though, not all) are barely literate and seem to be the ones that shout the loudest.

i do from the bottom of my heart think that the admin's intentions are good and seeing people willing to help others i have utmost respect for.

 What i dont like is the mob, sheep like mentality that seems to take over these groups where a lot of them blindly believe what they're told and tow the 'official admin line' with out question and shout down anyone that does as 'trolls' and 'troublemakers'.

some people really are sheep and love to find solidarity in a mob.
		
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I'll let you know if I get a letter. Taxpayer's money well wasted I'd say.


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## guesstimation (13 January 2013)

His solicitor is no doubt funded by us on legal aid anyway, our taxes are donating to his cause ;-)


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## lula (13 January 2013)

coralwings20 said:



			Natalia - the point is is that Clwyd & Michelle are raking in the monetary donations as well as people buying these horses hay/hard feed/rugs and equipment so why does Michelle need to charge £35.00 pw per horse as she is selling approx 10 a month so thats approx £350.00 a week with no overheads other than electric/water/time?!  The other thing that confuses me is that colts are still being sold such as a 4 year old TB that has never raced so why not geld before selling (with the vast amounts of money being dontated). Also, the documentary was filmed in the summer so some 6 months ago - Clwyd 6 months ago had cut down to around 22 horses but Debbie has stated that "he still has 22 horses" so selling 10 a month = 60 horses (more than he had to start) so can't anyone else see that this is a money making scheme that Michelle benefits from? 

Do people not remember that poor foal that was killed becuase Clwyd decided to simply turn another 10 horses out with the already established herd (inc. colts/stallions) & Michelle just said "oh Clwyd". This image will haunt me but neither of them seemed shocked/upset?!

My heart goes out to Clwyd losing his precious daughter - he is still suffering and will do til his day comes. SS need to get involved and find Clwyd some sheltered accomodation as he has no heating/hot water and it's winter. Clwyd needs help with his hoarding but not the sort of help Michelle is offering - making money (alot of) out of a sad old man. The RSPCA need to be informed of the vast donations so that they can ensure that the money is spent of the "present" horses not ones that come from the markets to sell.
		
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i think this is an excellent summary.


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## lula (13 January 2013)

guesstimation said:



			His solicitor is no doubt funded by us on legal aid anyway, our taxes are donating to his cause ;-)
		
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legal aid wont fund 'smear campaigns' 
 this is a complete bluff just to stop bad press being printed since you'd actually find out if the facts were correct or not (michelle said she hadn't spoken to clywd to confirm whether they were his horses or not) before you started wasting your time sending solicitors evidence to pursue a libel claim which isnt funded by legal aid either and i doubt Clywd would want to be paying for solicitors or michelle paying for it on his behalf do you?!


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## Equilibrium Ireland (13 January 2013)

10 horses should be ok? Really? One older man who can't take care of himself. My husband and I do 7 plus working. Alright ours come in at night because I don't want them standing in crap. But even living out and dealing with things properly on a day to day basis is a bit of work. Clean water, not eating out of muck, access to free choice forage. Why do 10 horses have to suffer with less than minimal care? Or is that a number people don't mind paying for him to have. Keep the charity going and find more farriers and vets "with a heart". 

As we've stated on various threads before. Horses are a choice and a luxury. Loving them isn't enough. If he really loved them he'd let them go. Maybe he'd keep 2 favorites and pay for them to stay in better conditions and visit them daily. That's loving horses. 

I really don't care how he lives. His choice. 

Terri


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## CalllyH (13 January 2013)

These Facebook pages are ridiculous though. I got a slamming on the valegro one for saying that surely if this was endorsed by cal he would make a public statement and we don't know whose behind it. 

Unsurprisingly Carl made a statement a few days later to say he wasn't supporting it. 

They just grow mass hysteria, they should not be allowed by Facebook. They do more damage than good.


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## guesstimation (13 January 2013)

I was thinking more if the RSPCA case against him funding wise not bringing a claim for libel


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## amandap (13 January 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			10 horses should be ok? Really? One older man who can't take care of himself. My husband and I do 7 plus working. Alright ours come in at night because I don't want them standing in crap. But even living out and dealing with things properly on a day to day basis is a bit of work. Clean water, not eating out of muck, access to free choice forage. Why do 10 horses have to suffer with less than minimal care? Or is that a number people don't mind paying for him to have. Keep the charity going and find more farriers and vets "with a heart". 

As we've stated on various threads before. Horses are a choice and a luxury. Loving them isn't enough. If he really loved them he'd let them go. Maybe he'd keep 2 favorites and pay for them to stay in better conditions and visit them daily. That's loving horses. 

I really don't care how he lives. His choice. 

Terri
		
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I tend to agree with this. Also, it appears he is squatting, what happens when he is evicted?


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## lula (13 January 2013)

guesstimation said:



			I was thinking more if the RSPCA case against him funding wise not bringing a claim for libel
		
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ah, well you would probably be right then.

18 charges is a lot.
 I'd like to know exactly what these charges are.

it is pretty difficult to get the RSPCA to do anything let alone stage an expensive prosecution (unless you're a fox hunter in DC"S constituency ofc ) so it would have to be pretty serious for them to go that far.


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## MagicMelon (13 January 2013)

Sorry but I think its ridiculous people are donating stuff to this man.  He is clearly a hoarder and hoarders often CHOOSE to live like this (he obviously has because he spends his money on the horses which he doesn't need to have). I knew a hoarder who lived just like him - we gave her numerous things, my family even paid to have a brand new bathroom put into her house, you know what she did - she used the bath to store coal in and refused to use the toilet (instead using a bucket...) - they often CHOOSE to live the way they do.  

At the end of the day, he should not have horses. He cannot afford them and they are suffering as a result, that poor foal died because he was stupid enough to put 10 friends horses (including a stallion I remember) in the field.  Its very sad that he lost his daughter but that is an entirely seperate issue, it does not excuse animals suffering.  It doesn't matter how much he claims to love horses - he doesn't because he's killing them.  And that lady, she seems to pretend to like horses when actually she didn't look at all bothered about that dead foal - I bet she's making money out of selling his ponies for him...

These people IMO do not deserve pity, they know what they're doing and its wrong.  I hope the RSPCA remove every single one of his horses (and any other animals he might have) and he's banned for life from keeping them.  If he so desperately loves horses then I'm pretty sure he could simply go and help that lady out with hers!

I haven't read all the posts, does anyone know what's happened since?


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## smokey (13 January 2013)

coralwings20 said:



			Natalia - the point is is that Clwyd & Michelle are raking in the monetary donations as well as people buying these horses hay/hard feed/rugs and equipment so why does Michelle need to charge £35.00 pw per horse as she is selling approx 10 a month so thats approx £350.00 a week with no overheads other than electric/water/time?!  The other thing that confuses me is that colts are still being sold such as a 4 year old TB that has never raced so why not geld before selling (with the vast amounts of money being dontated). Also, the documentary was filmed in the summer so some 6 months ago - Clwyd 6 months ago had cut down to around 22 horses but Debbie has stated that "he still has 22 horses" so selling 10 a month = 60 horses (more than he had to start) so can't anyone else see that this is a money making scheme that Michelle benefits from? 

Do people not remember that poor foal that was killed becuase Clwyd decided to simply turn another 10 horses out with the already established herd (inc. colts/stallions) & Michelle just said "oh Clwyd". This image will haunt me but neither of them seemed shocked/upset?!

My heart goes out to Clwyd losing his precious daughter - he is still suffering and will do til his day comes. SS need to get involved and find Clwyd some sheltered accomodation as he has no heating/hot water and it's winter. Clwyd needs help with his hoarding but not the sort of help Michelle is offering - making money (alot of) out of a sad old man. The RSPCA need to be informed of the vast donations so that they can ensure that the money is spent of the "present" horses not ones that come from the markets to sell.[/QUOTy

This sums up my feelings perfectly

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## djlynwood (13 January 2013)

Is there anyone who is local to him? It would be interesting to hear what the locals think about him. 
Also does anyone know if any more posts have been made by the cousin of the 80 yr old landowner?


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## FionaM12 (13 January 2013)

djlynwood said:



			Is there anyone who is local to him? It would be interesting to hear what the locals think about him. 
Also does anyone know if any more posts have been made by the cousin of the 80 yr old landowner?
		
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I think she's behind this Facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/TheTruthAboutClwydDavies?fref=ts


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## Moomin1 (13 January 2013)

glesni said:



			Michelle is valuable to the RSPCA???!!!! All she and that man did was refuse to help them to catch the black pony, causing it distress instead and stood there ridiculing the RSPCA and sneering at them.She loves being thought of as horse rescue.its a joke. Disgusting. I cant say anything on here but its no good trying to fool me
		
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I agree.


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## djlynwood (13 January 2013)

I have just been deleted from the support Clwyd fb site. I have never had a post deleted before! I asked Debbie if she was the best person to be an administrator of the site given her previous history. 

also was disgusted to see the cartoon depicting Clwyd surrounded by horses with the caption ' horses have feelings too. May the horse be with you'


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## Queenbee (13 January 2013)

amymay said:



			Be interesting to know what the programme makers make of this 'possible' turn of events, and the rspca response....
		
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I keep thinking exactly the same thing


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## djlynwood (13 January 2013)

Just googled Margaret O Leary. This is the one who whos 10 horses he introduced to his own and resulted in the dead foal he wasnt arsed about.


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## Spiritedly (13 January 2013)

This has been posted on another page and is apparently an email to Kelly Marks. KM has given permission for it to be passed on as has the RSPCA officer.
"An IH student works for the RSPCA and let me know the following. Please understand this was a completely unofficial letter which the student in question has given me permission to reveal without the name of the writer."

Hi kelly. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to tell u about the prosecution or release photos as i believe it is still in process.
I can tell u that the horses seized were in a terrible state, the black pony in the documentary had such a high worm burden it was projectile scouring so it was extremely dehydrated, it was so infested with lice that it was suffering with anemia and it had very overgrown feet. The other 4 were suffering with the same problems with a couple also being very emaciated which then obviously leads to all sorts of problems. 

The RSPCA will only remove animals in extreme cases and will in fact try to educate owners. The horses shown in the documentary were not bad enough to seize but obviously there were some welfare issues with feet, lice and worms. It stated in the documentary that Clwyd has six months to further reduce his numbers and resolve any welfare issues before any action is taken, which I think is fair. 

I also see that a lot of people were not happy with the way the black pony was herded and loaded. Firstly i must point out that it was not darted with an immobilising drug but with a normal sedative and as a IH student myself I do agree that a round pen, more man power and the help of an RA would of been a lot less stressful for the pony but I do believe they did the best they could with the knowledge and tools they had. 

Hopefully i have given u some helpful information and the RSPCA's view on IH is slowly moving in the right direction and in fact after i attended the untouched course and after having John Jones in to work with a pony the methods r now used by all staff when handling the wild ones. we now have a handy stick, use pressure and release, body language and even use the roping technique when catching the really wild ones. This is a great success!!!  oh and not to forget the pony we brought to monty's demo last year. None of these things would ever of been considered a few years ago.


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## sherry90 (13 January 2013)

Ok so I have had a PM from Michelle and a friend request after I messaged her to query why I was banned from the page. I won't post it all incase she comes on here and links me to my fb profile (I like to be under the radar on here!) 
She again confirmed that she is unable to confirm if the pictures were of Clwyds horses and stated that if they were she would not condone or defend them. Having looked back on the support page and her personal page I am disturbed and can only sit and shake my head. I do wonder wha this world is coming to. Social media is a fabulous tool but it doesn't half cause some problems sometimes. It's a platform of information but it breeds like wild fire and I'm sure everyone's main concern is the horses  I hope it ends well but I fear it won't. I like to be, rightly or wrongly, ignorant of these sorts of goings on. However, I have found myself concerned and worried at the state of not only these horses but those who are suffering similar fates across the UK


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## djlynwood (14 January 2013)

Does Clwyd have any family? Is he completly on his own, are there other sons and daughters and what about an ex wife/partner....where are they?


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## russianhorse (14 January 2013)

Djlynwood - I think he must have a son (as programme states he had 2 children and an ex-wife, but that he lost his only daughter)

No mention at all after that to where they are or whether he has a relationship with his son, but I assume not :/


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## ester (14 January 2013)

Somewhere reported that he had 2 other estranged children.


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## djlynwood (14 January 2013)

Has anyone looked at the Jaden Cornelious website that takes the paypal donations.

In the meet the team section, Debbie De St Croix is a trustee member and that mad monk man is a patron of it.


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## cronkmooar (14 January 2013)

djlynwood said:



			Has anyone looked at the Jaden Cornelious website that takes the paypal donations.

In the meet the team section, Debbie De St Croix is a trustee member and that mad monk man is a patron of it.
		
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They look like a right bunch of freaks


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## djlynwood (14 January 2013)

cronkmooar said:



			They look like a right bunch of freaks
		
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Thats what I thought but was too polite to say.


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## cronkmooar (14 January 2013)

djlynwood said:



			Thats what I thought but was too polite to say.
		
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Are you implying I am rude?


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## djlynwood (14 January 2013)

cronkmooar said:



			Are you implying I am rude?

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ha no, didnt mean it like that.


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## OWLIE185 (14 January 2013)

I think one has to be realistic about this entire situation that the entire priority is the welfare of the horses concerned.
The gentleman concerned is 80 years old and at that age he would find it difficult to look after and manage just one horse properly let alone the herd he appears to have.
Just to poo pick his fields would take at least a days work for one person and at his age it would be an impossible task.
Unfortunately there are people out there that collect animals and it is clearly a mental condition which needs to be diagnosed and named so that legislation can be put in place.  One finds that with some of the studs the owners do not know  when to run them down and just continue without the ability to look after the animals any more.
One must also remember that his knowledge (if he had any) of equine management and veterinary care would be well outdated so he would have no concept of worming etc.
In Australia there is legislation which prevents people from owning more that a specified number of animals without a licence and regular audits and I would suggest that this is what is needed here.


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## cronkmooar (14 January 2013)

djlynwood said:



			ha no, didnt mean it like that.
		
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Didn't think for one moment you did 

I just googled that woman and the monk (studying for an advanced tax exam and I am stuck so anything to divert me!) and found the Jersey womans farm saga - another one of those trustee/team/patron people was involved with that as well.

I have not been keeping up with the donation side of this situation - but it all seems very strange and I wonder what is going on with these peoples involvment

Also just out of interest - does anyone know if the monk managed to raise £1m to turn the other farm into a retreat and did he let the animals stay ?


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## cronkmooar (14 January 2013)

Also the boy/girl group b-Yond seems to have totally passed me by - were they really famous?


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## ester (14 January 2013)

OWLIE185 said:



			I think one has to be realistic about this entire situation that the entire priority is the welfare of the horses concerned.
The gentleman concerned is 80 years old and at that age he would find it difficult to look after and manage just one horse properly let alone the herd he appears to have. He is 68, the land owner is 80Just to poo pick his fields would take at least a days work for one person and at his age it would be an impossible task.
Unfortunately there are people out there that collect animals and it is clearly a mental condition which needs to be diagnosed and named so that legislation can be put in place.  One finds that with some of the studs the owners do not know  when to run them down and just continue without the ability to look after the animals any more.
One must also remember that his knowledge (if he had any) of equine management and veterinary care would be well outdated so he would have no concept of worming etc.
In Australia there is legislation which prevents people from owning more that a specified number of animals without a licence and regular audits and I would suggest that this is what is needed here.
		
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just highlighted in the interests of accuracy
...


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## Mongoose11 (15 January 2013)

glesni said:



			in the film michelle also said she "gets a lump when a horse goes"..... did she mean a  lump of money?
		
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Lump in her throat I would presume. 

Goodness.


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## Queenbee (15 January 2013)

On the FB page 'The Truth about Clywd Davies' poster SM (profile of face painted with a union jack) posted under the pictures of the horses and carcasses that he as the person who reported the neglect, got a follow up call from the RSPCA at the time to say they had found 10 carcasses on the land... he then said he was going to call the RSPCA and find out what the outcome was, to try and clarify if the charges now are linked to those findings, and if not what the outcome was... why he was not prosecuted then etc.  Does anyone know what the outcome was? Did he call the RSPCA?


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## leprechaun-lady (15 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			Lump in her throat I would presume. 

Goodness.
		
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Where is your sense of humour ?


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## mbsports (15 January 2013)

Just looked at the pictures on horsegossip. Take a look i want to cry!!!!!!!


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## Mongoose11 (15 January 2013)

leprechaun-lady said:



			Where is your sense of humour ?
		
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It would have been funny if Glensi meant it to be funny but I fear that it was a deadly genuine enquiry


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## leprechaun-lady (15 January 2013)

glesni said:



			in the film michelle also said she "gets a lump when a horse goes"..... did she mean a  lump of money?
		
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I noticed it also when she said about a lump... Ha ha the same thing crossed my mind!!


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## Mongoose11 (15 January 2013)

glesni said:



			Thanks for PM. Take no notice of that one she is one of these who owns on horse for a few years on a yard,,,sad act so to say
		
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 apologies that I can only afford to own one horse and that I can't afford to have my horses at home. If that makes me a sad act I would say you are probably insulting 75% of the members here


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## DizzyDoughnut (15 January 2013)

glesni said:



			Thanks for PM. Take no notice of that one she is one of these who owns on horse for a few years on a yard,,,sad act so to say
		
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seriously?? how rude


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## smokey (15 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



 apologies that I can only afford to own one horse and that I can't afford to have my horses at home. If that makes me a sad act I would say you are probably insulting 75% of the members here 

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I found that a very strange thing to say. Does that mean that in order to be a proper horse person you must own multiple horses, and keep them on your own land?


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## Mongoose11 (15 January 2013)

glesni said:



			sorry but if somebody insults me and talks to me in a condesending manner , then I have no other alternative other than to retaliate. I have had nothing but vile insults from this person just because I was trying to be friendly and PM her and asked her "area" not location like she/he is telling people . I do wish she would stop bullying and ignore my posts.
		
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If only we could stick to the facts


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## lula (15 January 2013)

glesni said:



			sorry but if somebody insults me and talks to me in a condesending manner , then I have no other alternative other than to retaliate. I have had nothing but vile insults from this person just because I was trying to be friendly and PM her and asked her "area" not location like she/he is telling people . I do wish she would stop bullying and ignore my posts.
		
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ok ladies, handbags away please. Its going to be might icy at dawn anyway.


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## DizzyDoughnut (15 January 2013)

glesni said:



			sorry but if somebody insults me and talks to me in a condesending manner , then I have no other alternative other than to retaliate. I have had nothing but vile insults from this person just because I was trying to be friendly and PM her and asked her "area" not location like she/he is telling people . I do wish she would stop bullying and ignore my posts.
		
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Ummm I haven't seen her bullying you and i couldn't care less what was said in PMs, its you that just made the nasty comments on here


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## Mongoose11 (15 January 2013)

glesni said:



			Just leave me alone please and stop cyber bullying
		
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## smokey (15 January 2013)

glesni said:



			sorry but if somebody insults me and talks to me in a condesending manner , then I have no other alternative other than to retaliate. I have had nothing but vile insults from this person just because I was trying to be friendly and PM her and asked her "area" not location like she/he is telling people . I do wish she would stop bullying and ignore my posts.
		
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I haven't seen her being rude or bullying towards you. You are the one keeping this going. May I respectfully suggest that you take your head out of your ass, get a grip and get over it! There is actually a serious thread about something slightly more important than your take on BB. Most of your posts have been coherent and sensible, please don't drag this thread, and yourself down.


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## leprechaun-lady (15 January 2013)

DizzyDoughnut said:



			Ummm I haven't seen her bullying you and i couldn't care less what was said in PMs, its you that just made the nasty comments on here
		
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HI, I dont want to be taking anybodys side as i have only jsut joined, but if you look a few posts back  BillyBlitzen was a bit mean about one of glesni's post which I think she meant as a joke. but there you go.


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## leprechaun-lady (15 January 2013)

smokey said:



			I haven't seen her being rude or bullying towards you. You are the one keeping this going. May I respectfully suggest that you take your head out of your ass, get a grip and get over it! There is actually a serious thread about something slightly more important than your take on BB. Most of your posts have been coherent and sensible, please don't drag this thread, and yourself down. 

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Oh gosh


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## Mongoose11 (15 January 2013)

I strongly suspect we won't be seeing Glesni and Leprechaun Lady logged in at the same time anytime soon. Unless of course we get the mobile and laptop fired up at the same time (thought I had better pre-empt that one).


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## smokey (15 January 2013)

leprechaun-lady said:



			Oh gosh
		
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You said you hadn't read the rest of the thread, and you weren't taking sides. I have read it all, and I'm not taking sides either. I have actually agreed with both these posters, and they with me. Perhaps instead of jumping in with both feet and making assumptions, you could take a few minutes to read all the posts. 
Apologies, you didn't say you haven't read the whole thread, my bad!
However, IF you have read it all, it makes your posts all the more confusing!


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## smokey (15 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			I strongly suspect we won't be seeing Glesni and Leprechaun Lady logged in at the same time anytime soon. Unless of course we get the mobile and laptop fired up at the same time (thought I had better pre-empt that one).
		
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And here was me trying to smooth the waters! You stirrer you!


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## Mongoose11 (15 January 2013)

smokey said:



			And here was me trying to smooth the waters! You stirrer you! 

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But when have you ever known a brand new poster to start in the middle of a mini barney and take sides (with one poster then making public reference to the helpful pm of support from the brand new member )

Sorry  you were doing a Stirling job too. I just keep being drawn into to the odd comments and as much as you want to ignore you also want to defend yourself, your one horse and your few years of ownership


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## smokey (15 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			Sorry  you were doing a Stirling job too. I just keep being drawn into to the odd comments and as much as you want to ignore you also want to defend yourself, your one horse and your few years of ownership 

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. Ye, us one horse owners, nightmares!


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## leprechaun-lady (15 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			But when have you ever known a brand new poster to start in the middle of a mini barney and take sides (with one poster then making public reference to the helpful pm of support from the brand new member )

Sorry  you were doing a Stirling job too. I just keep being drawn into to the odd comments and as much as you want to ignore you also want to defend yourself, your one horse and your few years of ownership 

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I havent joined the forum for a row but glesni sent me private message and got chatting. What are you implying.


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## cronkmooar (15 January 2013)

leprechaun-lady said:



			I havent joined the forum for a row but glesni sent me private message and got chatting. What are you implying.
		
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Yeh right then

Is everyone still reading the Horse Gossip thread on the matter?


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## smokey (15 January 2013)

leprechaun-lady said:



			I havent joined the forum for a row but glesni sent me private message and got chatting. What are you implying.
		
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Sorry, I mis understood, coz to the untrained eye it looks like the first reference to a private message is glesni thanking you for your PM. if you haven't joined for a row, I'm afraid you haven't got off to a very good start.


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## djlynwood (16 January 2013)

A solicitors Hughes and Parry Partnership based in Holywellm, North Wales have offered their services free for the case.

Bear in mind if you ever need a free solicitor!


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## misterjinglejay (16 January 2013)

djlynwood said:



			A solicitors Hughes and Parry Partnership based in Holywellm, North Wales have offered their services free for the case.

Bear in mind if you ever need a free solicitor!
		
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OMG how much further is this going to go?


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## ester (16 January 2013)

glesni said:



			Just leave me alone please and stop cyber bullying. anyone wishing to see my PM to BB to prove my innocence please ask and i can forward it to you. I only tried to be friendly and ask if she lived in the area of this clwyd davies and she was vile towards me
		
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Oh do stop getting your knickers in a knot, we've seen the PMs and you were the first to give the snipey reply. So unless there have been more BB is def not cyberbullying you


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## smokey (16 January 2013)

ester said:



			Oh do stop getting your knickers in a knot, we've seen the PMs and you were the first to give the snipey reply. So unless there have been more BB is def not cyberbullying you 

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This needed to be said!


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## Mongoose11 (16 January 2013)

ester said:



			Oh do stop getting your knickers in a knot, we've seen the PMs and you were the first to give the snipey reply. So unless there have been more BB is def not cyberbullying you 

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Cheers Ester, thought I was going mad. There was another PM I said something about a differing opinion not being a sign of cyber bullying


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## equestriansports (7 July 2015)

Hi all, does anyone have a contact number for Michelle Crowther? Ive found out my little pony is one of the colts shown in the documentary and I'd love to find out more information about him and what happened. feel free to pm me. Thanks.


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## sychnant (7 July 2015)

She's on Facebook, equestriansports


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## equestriansports (7 July 2015)

iconique said:



			I agree with this, by giving him money and items it encouraging him to continue, but imo the person who is making money out of this is Michelle.  I saw the programme and it struck me  when I saw her and another trying to tug a pony into a box using the tail that it is a person who has very cleverly got the media involved to tell everyone how terrible it is but then really advertise her plight to sell horses.
		
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Dragging this back up again but that little skewbald colt is my pony. He doesn't appreciate being stabled and takes a lot of encouragement to go into a stable. He's pretty weary of people sometimes too and very headshy. Just so sad to know this happened to him. I can't understand the need to haul on his tail.
I've tried adding her and messaging her but I've had no reply. I've posted on FB groups to do with this too. Just seem to be getting nowhere.


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## MagicMelon (7 July 2015)

Flame_ said:



			I'm convinced the world's gone nuts. Maybe if I start breeding random horses I can't afford and have no where to keep people will send me money? 

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Ditto.  I didn't see the programme but whats the reason for him not selling them?  If you can't afford to keep a horse, then you sell it, pretty simple... I personally would never give money to something like this and I think people are a bit mad to do so!


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