# Help with training a stubborn horse to load in a horse box!



## rowy (31 May 2014)

I have a 5 year old Connie x mare. She has always been really good loading and travelling. We did approx 7 journey's last year where she was really well behaved but she had a break over the winter and this year she has been getting progressively worse at loading. 

Last two journeys have been the worst where we have been to the vet. Went straight on for the journey there but when we went to leave she would put both front legs on the ramp and refuse to move any further. Any pressure put on the lead rope or from behind with noises/ a stick, made her pull back and off the ramp. 

It took us 1 hour to load her. She's wasn't scared, just being stubborn whenever any pressure was out on her to load. We tried the lunge line behind her, food (including carrots, her favourite lick and pony nuts), two men tried to scoop her bum in. 4 of us were stood around her trying to get her in. In the end it took sedation and putting the horse box on stocks to get her to walk in. 

We are going to start practising at home again with lots of reward when she takes the right action and food. But does anyone have any other ideas? If she were scared it would give me some further ideas to work on but she really isn't scared at all.


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## superpony (31 May 2014)

Watching this with interest.. I have one exactly the same. We had to sedate him too last time, although tbh he has recently been up and over which I think has scared him but he has always been stubborn/slightly awkward particularly away from home.

I have gone right back to the start.. little steps just getting him happy standing on the ramp, then just standing with his front feet inside etc. This does seem to be working with him.


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## LEC (31 May 2014)

Get an expert like Tarr Steps in to teach you? Money well spent in my experience!


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## JillA (31 May 2014)

Reinforcement training works really well with loading (think clicker training without the clicker). Reward for small tries (step towards the ramp, then one toe on ramp, them two feet on ramp etc) - it isn't the same as enticing with food, it is rewarding attempts, small and then building. Once they have got the idea it tends to progress quite quickly, so long as your timing is spot on. If they run back, don't stress, just take it as another chance to teach them to load - the more you do it the quicker it gets.
Don't get into a tug of war of any kind - you simply cannot win against half a ton of horse and all it will do is convince them here is something scary about he transport.
Then all you need to do is make sure they don't run back when you do up the ramp/breeching straps etc - I teach a "wait" in the same way I teach a dog to stay and that takes care of that.


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## siennamum (31 May 2014)

I would question why she has gone from liking the box to not liking it and ensure you have covered off all possible reasons she could be unhappy.
We have a very clever, very stubborn and very large gelding who hates the lorry, and he could somedays drag you on the lorry and others plant at the bottom of the ramp for a couple of hours!! 
The answer is a controller halter and endless patience. As Lec says there are specialists who can show you some techniques to get results reasonably quickly and duplicate them.


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## PorkChop (31 May 2014)

Invest in a Richard Maxwell halter, I have never been unable to load a horse whilst using it, and I have loaded lots and lots of horses, including those at shows etc.


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## CBAnglo (31 May 2014)

I have one like this; loads himself on a lorry or side loading trailer but hates anything rear loading.  Once on he travels well but getting him on can take anything up to 2 hrs.  I have had him almost 9 years and the only thing that had worked is lunging.  So I present him with the trailer; if he doesn't get on then it is straight into the school and I lunge him for about 20 mins.  Try again, if he s doesn't get in, then back to the school.  He now gets on 5 times out of 6.  The 6th time all I have to do is pick up the lunge whip and he normally turns back to the trailer and loads himself.

He is an ex-racer and always hated going into the start box (he was a pants race horse).  Once on I always give him a treat so he gets a reward too.

The only time I couldn't use this approach was when I was bringing him home after his KS surgery; we just had to wait him out (2hrs) as I was terrified of him hurting himself (he had also had a double neurectomy).

Two things I hate with difficult loaders;the "helpful" people who think they can load your horse (they normally receive a hoof in their face for the trouble) and peor who beat horses on.


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## AengusOg (31 May 2014)

rowy said:



			Any pressure put on the lead rope or from behind with noises/ a stick, made her pull back and off the ramp.
		
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You can't pull or force a horse into a trailer; it has to be the horse's decision to load, so you have to make it an exercise in persuasion through training. It's about creating a horse which recognises the benefits of doing as it's asked, not one which is afraid of the consequences of non-compliance.



rowy said:



			She's wasn't scared, just being stubborn whenever any pressure was out on her to load. We tried the lunge line behind her, food (including carrots, her favourite lick and pony nuts), two men tried to scoop her bum in. 4 of us were stood around her trying to get her in.
		
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So your mare has learned that she can refuse to load and there's not much can be done about it.. You can hardly blame any horse for refusing to load with all that going on. The last thing a horse is likely to do is go into a small confined space if it feels unsafe or worried; its instinct is to remain in the open with the option of flight.



rowy said:



			We are going to start practising at home again with lots of reward when she takes the right action and food. But does anyone have any other ideas? If she were scared it would give me some further ideas to work on but she really isn't scared at all.
		
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I don't know how anyone can be sure that a horse is not scared when refusing to load. I would say its pretty much certain that the horse is afraid of something, whether it be the box or the consequences of going into it, ie the vet, possibly, or even the consequences of not going into it. Horses don't refuse to load just to p!ss us off.



rowy said:



			It took us 1 hour to load her.
		
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It doesn't take an hour to teach yielding to halter pressure, and your mare will quickly learn the benefits of following you closely and being free of pressure by doing so. If you train her to trust you and to be compliant and calm, by being trustworthy and calm yourself, your mare will be more likely to load for you.


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## GinaGeo (31 May 2014)

Mine can be a bit funny about loading sometimes.  He's never been the best traveller and when he's by himself is much better without a partition in the trailer, in a pair he has to travel on the right or he falls over.  So firstly make sure there's no reason for her to not want to load.

A few weeks ago, we were going out with a group of friend and hired a box. He's never been in a box before and I stupidly didn't consider that he'd not understand the question being asked of him.  He's a very clever boy and likes to assess situations fully before putting himself at risk.  The time to do that was not with a group of people, a transporter and a time limit.  He was barely given time to understand what was being asked of him, before people set too trying to tempt him with food, push him in from behind and wrap lunge lines around his bum. I said enough, and put him to bed. It wasn't worth terrifying him.  For a few weeks afterwards he was funny about loading.  I'd inadvertently taught him that saying "no" meant he didn't have to go.

It hasn't taken long to get him back on side.  I use a pressure halter for loading, the groundwork needs doing first.  You need to be able to control the horses feet, get her to back up etc. with the smallest of pressures.  

You will never be able to pull her in, you have to make the box a more comfortable place to be than the ground, and therefore make it her idea to load.  With mine I present him to the ramp, walk on confidently.  If he stops, he gets a moment to consider before I put pressure on the halter, suggesting he join me.  If he walks forward the pressure is released instantly.  If he doesn't move or steps backward then I back him off the ramp assertively.  Stop. Then represent.  I basically repeat this until he walks in.  Usually one attempt does it, with a confirmed bad loader it can take 30mins or more.  It's not failed me yet!

Once they're in, take them back out. And repeat the loading process as many times as possible (10+) until it's completely stress free. Horse's learn by repetition, so you need to make sure she walks in perfectly many more times than she refuses.  I'd repeat it as often as possible as well.  I'm also a bit naughty and always give mine a treat once they're in.


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## rowy (3 June 2014)

I don't think she was refusing to load because she was trying to annoy us. Equally I'm not 100% convinced she's scared. 
My thoughts were that she's a mare, a part bred Connie so stubborn and when she is in situations where she feels like she's being pressured, she instantly says no. 
So even if we are inadvertently slightly pressuring her (so slight tension on the lead rope, encouraging her forward with noise like clicking) she instantly puts the hand break on.

This was proven correct today as we decided to do some loading practise. Straight after riding we opened the box with the goal to get her just stood inside and then take her straight back off.
Even the slightest pressure at all from the lead rope made her back off down the ramp. We found food persuasion as well as a lot of gushing from us made her head in the right direction. 

After 20mins of just her front feet on the ramp, I just put the lead rope over her neck (so I wasn't holding it) and got her favourite lick. And she went straight in! 
So proves my theory of stubborn Connie mare! 

So we will try this again every day or so over the next few weeks and maybe do a short journey round the block and straight back home again before trying to get her to load at strange places.


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## Ditchjumper2 (4 June 2014)

I cannot be doing with horses that won't load and never have. I would no doubt be viewed as an awful person, but if they are not frightened then it is a disobediance not to do as they are told.

Set a aside a day when you have all day. I use a halter made of thin cord, a bridle, a lunge line, hat and gloves. I asked them to load, if they don't then sharp downwards yanks on halter and push them backwards. The ask again...and so on. I have found this always works. Once on praise, take them of then load again.

My horses will all self load and I cannot be doing with the will they won't they load worries. Be confident...if you expect them not to load they probably won't.  Not everyones methods but works for us.


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## TheMule (4 June 2014)

If the horse goes backwards when you pull you need to give it a lesson in yielding to pressure- push her back more. Everytime you put pressure on and she goes back you just quietly keep pushing her back. Works for me everytime!


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## JillA (4 June 2014)

Ditchjumper2 said:



			I would no doubt be viewed as an awful person, but if they are not frightened then it is a disobediance not to do as they are told.
		
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How do you know they are not frightened?? As prey animals they are aware that showing fear could be disastrous for them, so they usually internalise it - when did you ever see a horse shaking with fear? 
Why would a horse, an animal who has made a career out of being obedient to almost every wish of us humans, be disobedient? That is anthropomorphising - instead of fitting them into a human tern of reference, can I respectfully suggest you look at it from the horse's point of view? Your methods probably work for you - so far, but I pity the poor sensitive horse who happens to be the first you encounter who genuinely hates being coerced in that way. The problem with coercion is that if it doesn't have the desired result you have to escalate it until it becomes outright cruelty or you have allowed the horse to learn that resistance does work.


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## BethH (4 June 2014)

Daft answer - my connie x was exactly like this - realised he was a bit claustrophobic and had a bad journey that made him go from fine to not.  We now make sure the partition is moved to give loads of room to go in, jockey door/side ramps now open to give lots of light and he is far happier in a trailer that a lorry with a higher chassis, it seems the lower the better.  We let him stop on the ramp to look and put a feed bucket on the floor with pony nuts that rattle and he now on the whole seems to stroll in of his own free will fairly quickly.


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## Twiglet (4 June 2014)

It's funny how many people have 'stubborn' horses only when it comes to loading. 

Mine is a terrible loader and I got very bored of people telling me that he was naughty or stubborn. He didn't look particularly stressed - more bored - during the hours of standing at the bottom of the ramp, and I frequently had to decline the offers of brooms, lunge lines, whips et. (in fact the one time in a moment of frustration I gave in to the old two lunge lines, chifney method - with four people - he wiped us all out, took off and spent 20 minutes galloping loose). He'd had a bad accident as a two year old whilst travelling involving him getting some significant injuries, and he is genuinely scared of loading and being on the lorry, and no amount of forcing him with bridles and lunge lines was going to change his opinion on that. 

As someone else has mentioned, if you've tried everything and not getting any progress, it's probably time to get a professional in. Sometimes just a fresh pair of eyes can help with finding the solution. I really rate Tarrsteps' methods because she solved our loading issues (and mine is the worst I've ever known in terms of sheer force of will, size and strength) without gadgets or strongarming him in. She also gave us 'tools' to carry on in the future. 

Good luck with whatever you choose - it really is the most frustrating situation.


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## Sb2 (4 June 2014)

Try Gary Witheford's- you can take the horse down to his yard & he will have them loading in 10 mins after some groundwork.  No hassle &  very systematic methods &horse will just pop in like a lamb. Half a days training is only £66 so you can go over a few times to re enforce the training


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (4 June 2014)

JillA said:



			How do you know they are not frightened?? As prey animals they are aware that showing fear could be disastrous for them, so they usually internalise it - when did you ever see a horse shaking with fear? 
Why would a horse, an animal who has made a career out of being obedient to almost every wish of us humans, be disobedient? That is anthropomorphising - instead of fitting them into a human tern of reference, can I respectfully suggest you look at it from the horse's point of view? Your methods probably work for you - so far, but I pity the poor sensitive horse who happens to be the first you encounter who genuinely hates being coerced in that way. The problem with coercion is that if it doesn't have the desired result you have to escalate it until it becomes outright cruelty or you have allowed the horse to learn that resistance does work.
		
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i sort of agree with both DJ and with JillA-i guess the trick is to know your horse and be very aware of body language...

CS is generally a bit nappy, both to ride and to handle on the ground, its no surprise therefore that he can be difficult to load. Not upset or worried, just stops 5 foot away and plants himself. All the sweet talking and bribery in the world will not budge him, pressure halters,chifneys etc cause vertical rearing and he can run backwards through any number of lunge lines!
what worked for him was 2 things,moving him side to side as soon as he plants, so he might not be going where i want eventually, but equally he isnt allowed to do his thing of just parking up!
on the days he really wouldn't go we would get him to the point of one hoof on the ramp, blindfold him with a towel and then he would go (towel pulled off as soon as moving up ramp so he could see to turn).
Now he self loads and if he stops, as soon as we pick up a towel he goes! He travels like a dream and is very calm on arrival, this is just his attitude all over tbh and i wont stand for it, so easier to blindfold and get the job done asap in the same way that when riding, i dont get in to a technical argument, if he plants, i do whatever the heck it takes to get him to GO and thats that. Hes not given many options as give an inch and he will take a mile!

With Fig, who is an easy going love bug, but a worrier, Taking the *my way or the highway* tack, would result in a very upset chap, he would be one where letting him take his merry time would pay off in the long run, lots of fuss and repetition (he's actually a super loader, this is just an example of diff horses/diff tactics).


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## Puppy (4 June 2014)

rowy said:



			Last two journeys have been the worst where we have been to the vet.
		
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Could this be relevant?  What did you go to the vet for? Could she have been uncomfortable when it came to coming home?


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## stencilface (4 June 2014)

Puppy said:



			Could this be relevant?  What did you go to the vet for? Could she have been uncomfortable when it came to coming home?
		
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Agree with this.  Maybe just go out for some rides in the horsebox again, let her out for a graze, put her back in and go home sort of thing, something she enjoys doing.

We had great success with my sisters youngster not loading using a normal halter and a schooling whip.  You need to do groundwork to establish that they know that tap on side means go forward, but that done its a simple process.  Walk up to ramp, as soon as they stop tap with whip.  Keep tapping with whip until they move forward.  This may be some time, and you need to keep increasing the 'force' of the whip.  Do no allow them to turn around and just keep at it.  They will move forwards if they understand that the whip/tap on side means go forward and nothing else.  You are not hitting as punishment, there is no anger in it, you are tapping as an aid.


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## Becky.tinnion (5 June 2014)

I personally used to have a pony that sometimes would walk straight into the box but 9 times out of 10 point blank refused. After trying everything, lunge lines, feed etc my trainer told me to use a squirty bottle filled with water and squirt him up the bum and I have to say worked first time and eventually I could just squeak my teeth and got him in as it sounds with the water squirting. The only reason I can guess it works is if someone squirted cold water at you you would run away wouldn't you and just for a not it doesn't work with all them


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## Ditchjumper2 (5 June 2014)

JillA said:



			How do you know they are not frightened?? As prey animals they are aware that showing fear could be disastrous for them, so they usually internalise it - when did you ever see a horse shaking with fear? 
Why would a horse, an animal who has made a career out of being obedient to almost every wish of us humans, be disobedient? That is anthropomorphising - instead of fitting them into a human tern of reference, can I respectfully suggest you look at it from the horse's point of view? Your methods probably work for you - so far, but I pity the poor sensitive horse who happens to be the first you encounter who genuinely hates being coerced in that way. The problem with coercion is that if it doesn't have the desired result you have to escalate it until it becomes outright cruelty or you have allowed the horse to learn that resistance does work.
		
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It depends what your definition of outright cruelty is really?! I would not be cruel to any animal but equally I am happy to admit I am not one of the "pat it and pony nut" brigade. If I ask my horse to load I expect it to. In fairness only ever had one who really refused to load and she was just being a cow. 

We gave ourselves a Sunday and spent the best part of the day getting her to load. Which she did in the end. We were just not prepared to let her win but we were not cruel, just firm. Worked for us and she became a brilliant loader. I guess you do whatever works for you. I find no pleasure in wanting to go places and not knowing if they will load or not. If some are happy with that approach that is fine...but not for me.


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## Moomin1 (5 June 2014)

Ditchjumper2 said:



			I cannot be doing with horses that won't load and never have. I would no doubt be viewed as an awful person, but if they are not frightened then it is a disobediance not to do as they are told.

Set a aside a day when you have all day. I use a halter made of thin cord, a bridle, a lunge line, hat and gloves. I asked them to load, if they don't then sharp downwards yanks on halter and push them backwards. The ask again...and so on. I have found this always works. Once on praise, take them of then load again.

My horses will all self load and I cannot be doing with the will they won't they load worries. Be confident...if you expect them not to load they probably won't.  Not everyones methods but works for us.
		
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I can guarantee you that my mare would not load for love nor money if you tried that method with her.  She would just rear and frankly refuse to go anywhere near the ramp again.

With her it was a case of slowly slowly with lots of praise and quiet, slow movements when she suddenly developed an issue loading out of the blue.


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## Goldenstar (5 June 2014)

J is an occasional non loader into the lorry .
Because I think he remembers things he does not always like what comes at the end of going on the lorry .
He will anytime into the IW ( hunting ,beach , going to the forest )
What works for him is a bridle a bungee rein ( stops him rearing )  and never giving him a moments rest until he gives in .
If he dares say no he kept on the move and presented with wagon until he complies I would take this approach with all horses but he's 8 and has been travelling since a foal .
I have it sussed now having loaded him a few times a day for a while however he is a horse who if he saw you spend a day and half loading the lorry might plant when asked to go in .


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## Tiddlypom (5 June 2014)

Might there be a problem with the lorry, so that it is giving a poor ride?

When a formerly good loader starts to play up, my first thought would be that the horse is in discomfort, or there is an issue with the transport.


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## Moomin1 (5 June 2014)

Tiddlypom said:



			Might there be a problem with the lorry, so that it is giving a poor ride?

When a formerly good loader starts to play up, my first thought would be that the horse is in discomfort, or there is an issue with the transport.
		
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Very good point made.

The first thing I did when my good loader developed a sudden problem was to have a vet check done for any discomfort etc. If nothing else, it provides piece of mind at the very least.


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## Goldenstar (5 June 2014)

No problem with the lorry the three other horses don't mind .
J's stubborn and has learnt from an young age to fight people and he's big and he knows he's big ( the most stupid thing that anyone ever teaches a horse ) he was the same in his former home .
It did not surface with us for ages , when I started jumping away from home that triggered it .
J sees the physio every three weeks so he rarely needs an extra check .


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## Louby (5 June 2014)

Slightly different as my young horse I was told was awful to load and was doped to be delivered to me so as far as I was aware he was never good to load unlike your horse.  I was dreading it but decided it had to be a positive experience and didnt want to try brute force which tbh at his size would have been a no win situation.  I came across the michael peace vid on youtube and tried that, basically not letting him stand still at the bottom of the ramp.  I had been having leading issues so had bought an attachment off Ebay for my headcollar already, transforms it into a Monty Roberts type controller headcollar for less than £5 and its worked brilliantly.  We put no pressure on him, I let him pause for minutes and I kept his feet moving side to side and couldnt believe it when with a bit of pressure on the halter he walked on.  Poor boy was shaking but he did it.  We unloaded and did it a few more times and he walked straight on.  We have yet to go anywhere but I was amazed.

I would think your horse is associating travelling with a not nice experience ie the vets or like someone else said check your lorry as there has to be a reason why a good loader suddenly changes.  My old boy changed from a good loader in a lorry to a terrified one after a trip in a trailer, he was never the same after.


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## Goldenstar (5 June 2014)

The lorry is fine .
The horse has not loaded at times throughout it's life .


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## Louby (5 June 2014)

Just re read your posts properly and you have done all this, sorry


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## AshTay (6 June 2014)

My previously OK loader decided not to load to come home from the vets a couple of weeks ago. We tried for 2 hours initially, including sedation, and couldn't get him on and the next day it took 40 minutes and a broom to shove him in. As soon as he was in he started eating his hay like there had been no kerfuffle at all!

Knowing I was going to need to travel him again for more teatment, I read a couple of threads on here and invested in a Richard Maxwell halter. Did a ten minute session in the school one evening (though I think he knew what they were about as he was limpet-boy as soon as it was on him). Then ten minutes the next night then around to the van (side loading conversion), a two minute stand-off with him leaning quietly resisting the pressure and me not backing down, a couple of front legs on and back off twice, then ome gentle encouragement from behind and he was on. Then walked him on and off ten times.

We were then due to go to Oakham this week about 1 hour journey - he loaded on and then off and on again (because someone said the horse needs to know to do the right thing every time, not just once so the more he loads on and off, the more he learns that walking on is simply what happens every time). We traveled 20 metres before we had to turn back (equipment failure at Oakham) so I unloaded him and walked him straight back on in his normal headcollar and then off again.

We were then booked in at Newmarket (2.5 hours from us) the next day - so loaded (on and off and on again) perfectly, traveled for 2.5 hours - not a particularly relaxed traveler but no sweating up or stupidity.  Arrived at Newmarket, unloaded and then walked him straight back on again (in regular headcollar). Collecting him tomorrow and hoping it will all go as smoothly again.

So, in summary, RM halter and a bit of groundwork and the will-power to load on and off and on and off until it's second nature.

(I have probably just jinxed tomorrow by saying how good he's been....oops).


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