# Dog attacking our chickens - what to do?



## Custard Cream (26 March 2013)

Our hens are free roaming around the barn and stable yard out into the paddock, they've been there for about 5 years now. We've only lost 2 or 3 to foxes, so we've been very lucky. 

New people moved into a property on the yard and their dog attacked and killed a hen about a year ago. I've caught him chasing them again this week and today he's attacked another one, which now looks very bald and like it's going to drop down dead. 

What would you do?


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## CorvusCorax (26 March 2013)

Tell them if you see it on your land again you will shoot it. Even if you have no intention of doing so. Walk around with a broken shotgun over your arm for effect 

In all seriousness, sorry for your loss but I wouldn't tolerate a third time.


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## Dobiegirl (26 March 2013)

I agree with CC, contact the owners and also say you want compensating, Ive no idea what point of lay pullets are, a fiver each ? more if they are a specific breed. Also after a shock like that it will put them off lay, not that they will be laying much in this weather but then they wont know that.


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## Custard Cream (26 March 2013)

Dog owners share the outside space and I don't own the land, I livery there along with the yard owner (who is the landlord of the people with the dog). I don't want to cause a fuss or a problem for the yard owner, but it's getting annoying now. It's a Buff Orpington that we've had for a long time now and she looks like she'll cark it overnight. They've been spoken to before when it happened and the dog wasn't to be out without supervision, but that still happens, obviously.

Rock and hard place!


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## Luci07 (26 March 2013)

Talk to the YO. Did the dog kill or chase on a shared area? or was it effectively trespassing? if it was the former then I would ask for recompense and would consider a pen for the chickens. If it was trespassing then I would ask the YO to make the dog owners fence off their part and keep their dog from trespassing.


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## lachlanandmarcus (26 March 2013)

It is rather difficult as it sounds as if the dog isn't outside the area they are entitled to be in, albeit not under control.

I would require them to pay compensation for the losses and either keep the dog muzzled or on the lead or them pay for a large hen house and walk in run for the chickens.

Do they rent or own the place? If the former, if they don't do the right thing, the landlord should be giving them notice. 

Contrary to the previous post, you cannot threaten to shoot the dog, not even farmers are allowed to do that to a sheep worrying dog owner, as it is deemed to be threatening behaviour - if a dog has to be shot for worrying livestock then the decision to do it has to be a spur of the moment thing where there is no other way of removing the currently happening attack and the dog cannot be caught.


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## SusieT (26 March 2013)

Regardless-if it's a shared area a solution needs to happen. Were you're chickens there first? Other option is to enclose the hens but have you spoken to the dog owner?


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## CorvusCorax (26 March 2013)

Muzzled dogs can still kill chickens.


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## Honey08 (26 March 2013)

Personally, I would make a large run for the hens, its the only way they will be safe.


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## Dry Rot (27 March 2013)

Dogs will chase chickens.

If the hen dies, hang it on an electric fence.


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## Clodagh (27 March 2013)

Dogs should be taught not to chase chickens!
I like the electric fence idea.
Trouble is hen chasing is such fun for a dog, loads of flapping and squarking. I think you will need to pen your hens if they won't pen their dog. I would be spitting bricks (and have been in the past when a neighbours dog attacked my hens).


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## CorvusCorax (27 March 2013)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			Contrary to the previous post, you cannot threaten to shoot the dog, not even farmers are allowed to do that to a sheep worrying dog owner, as it is deemed to be threatening behaviour - if a dog has to be shot for worrying livestock then the decision to do it has to be a spur of the moment thing where there is no other way of removing the currently happening attack and the dog cannot be caught.
		
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Not where I live, must be different legislation


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## Nikki J (27 March 2013)

The legal situation is quite clear in this case - if the land is privately owned, and the dog is not trespassing, then his owners are not liable for what their dog does on that land, unless it is a danger to humans.  However, whilst that may be the legal situation, morally of course it is unacceptable to allow your dog that you know will chase and kill chickens, and probably eat them too, to run amok amongst them.  I am assuming the chickens have their wings pinned so they cannot fly out of reach of the dog - in any case, even unpinned chickens are very poor flyers, and a quick athletic dog will be able to pull them down out of the air before they have gained the safety of a high roost.

Muzzling will not help - 1) the dog will still be able to terrify the chickens, causing them to most likely die of fright and 2) assuming the muzzle would be a baskerville-type, they could still kill a chicken.

The most obvious solution is to have the dog tied up or chained up whilst the owners are on the yard, or leave the dog in the car where possible.

Best of all would be to train him not to chase chickens.  Depending on the breed of the dog, this should not be difficult.  However, a quick, simple and fairly cheap solution would be to use an e collar. We trained our malamute cross, (Utonagan), not to chase chickens using just a couple of zaps from Ben's e collar.  2 zaps and we can now walk past the chickens with Tai giving them a very wide berth!  The owners would need to have the controller in their pockets and the dog wearing the collar for some time to be on the safe side, but this would be the quickest and most effective solution of all.

Whereas I will defend the right of owners to allow their dogs to be off-lead, it must be on the assumption that the dog is well-behaved, obedient and 100% safe with humans, other dogs and livestock.  If they are not, then the dog must be kept restrained in some way, or taught better manners.

If the dog has killed chickens, then it is only morally fair that financial compensation is offered.


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## Dry Rot (27 March 2013)

Clodagh said:



Dogs should be taught not to chase chickens!
I like the electric fence idea.
Trouble is hen chasing is such fun for a dog, loads of flapping and squarking. I think you will need to pen your hens if they won't pen their dog. I would be spitting bricks (and have been in the past when a neighbours dog attacked my hens).
		
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Of course they shouldn't but dog training in the UK is a lost art. My dog is trained to chase the hens out of the barn because they ***** in the hay. Once they are outside, she leaves them alone. She will also ignore a hen with chicks in the barn. Why? Because she's trained. 

As George Meldrum, HM The Queen's dog trainer, explained to his boss, "It's all done with cruelty, ma'am".


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## Nikki J (27 March 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			Of course they shouldn't but dog training in the UK is a lost art. My dog is trained to chase the hens out of the barn because they ***** in the hay. Once they are outside, she leaves them alone. She will also ignore a hen with chicks in the barn. Why? Because she's trained. 

As George Meldrum, HM The Queen's dog trainer, explained to his boss, "It's all done with cruelty, ma'am".
		
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Love it!!!


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## lachlanandmarcus (27 March 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Not where I live, must be different legislation 

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You can put up signs advising of the presence of livestock or asking for dogs to be kept on leads. But since there is not a positive 'right' to shoot sheep worrying dogs, but rather a defence to the offence of having shot it in the heat of an active worrying attack where there has been no other way of stopping it, to threaten it beforehand is taken to be arguably too premeditated and suggesting that the dog would be shot as a first resort rather than the focus being on catching it and calling the police, with shooting being a last resort. At least that has been what iVe been suggested. 

Personally I think it should be fine to put up such a notice!! 

In the end,  if you have repeated sheep worrying you are going to quite reasonably put up this kind of notice, it's just people need to be aware that from a legal perspective the dog owners legal team may try to use it to suggest that the farmer was trigger happy and had it in for dogs and didn't try to catch the dog (which would remove the defence in the Act).


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## Spook (27 March 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Love it!!!  

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So do I!


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## cbmcts (27 March 2013)

A bit off the wall but...can you rehome/borrow a goose or even better a bonded pair? Obviously not an option if it's a big, properly aggressive dog but it sounds like this dog is 'playing' in an unacceptable way rather than focused on killing the chickens since he's only had a few goes at them in a year even though he lives on the yard - not that even one go at them is acceptable btw. Sell it to your LL as a security system 

A goose (especially a gander with his wife) is usually happy to take on a dog and will win the battle against most! They have trained more terriers than I can count that things with feathers are to be avoided and I've seen them chase off many a fox too.


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## Honey08 (27 March 2013)

Could you catch the dog next time it is out alone, take it on a lead near the hens, and if it goes to chase, smack it and tell it off, several times if poss.  Our yellow lab loved to chase when we first got hens, but he soon learned that its not allowed.  Even the cat used to stalk them, and learned when he kept getting told off!


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## Spook (27 March 2013)

Probably completely non pc But....... I was told years ago that a dog (our own) could be cured from killing goslings(also our own) by beating it about the head with the carcases..... 'n' it did work, she never did it again.  

Blimey I bet that'll set the cat among the pidgeons.


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## Dry Rot (27 March 2013)

Spook said:



			Probably completely non pc But....... I was told years ago that a dog (our own) could be cured from killing goslings(also our own) by beating it about the head with the carcases..... 'n' it did work, she never did it again.  

Blimey I bet that'll set the cat among the pidgeons.
		
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The modern way is to distract the dog with treats......then reason with it.

(I think we'll both be black listed!).


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## weaselwords (28 March 2013)

My dogs are so daft and so obsessed with chasing and killing things, they would think that an excellent game.


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## Clodagh (28 March 2013)

I love the distract it with treats bit...it would be funny if it wasn't so true. OR as your dog dismembers the ewe (or chicken, or whatever) you click at it and then give it a biscuit when it stops.

It depends on the prey drive, although if you look at foxhounds if they riot they are beaten and it usually works. Of course they tend to have a two strikes and you are out rule as well.


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## CorvusCorax (28 March 2013)

We had an 'oh ****' moment yesterday.
I could actually see the dog working it out in his head (what happened the last time I...OH YEAH!!) before he came running over to me 
(It didn't involve a biscuit and he still has his moments )


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## Alec Swan (28 March 2013)

Re: Dog attacking our chickens - what to do?

What to do?  Simple.  Attack the bloody dog,  and mean it! 

Alec.


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## Dry Rot (28 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Re: Dog attacking our chickens - what to do?

What to do?  Simple.  Attack the bloody dog,  and mean it! 

Alec.
		
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You cannot be seerious!

Wouldn't that give the dog serious psychological problems??

Actually, this is rather interesting. A couple of years ago I put a 17th century falconry book into modern English. 

The writer was the "hawk whisperer" of his day, so a sort of Parelli of birds. Apparently, it was a common problem for your hawk to go off and kill some unfortunate peasant's hen, rather than the targetted partridge,  which tended to spoilt the day's sport. His solution was to wait until the hawk had plucked the hen and had started to eat. He'd then sneak up and sprinkle pepper on the exposed meat. 

I don't have children, but I am reliably informed by a friend that does that it is the duty of every caring parent to sprinkle pepper on a child's first ice cream with a similar objective in view.

BTW, I've tried it and it works...with hawks at least. Still waiting for a parent to volunteer a small child....  Can't see why it wouldn't work for dogs as well.


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## Nikki J (2 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Re: Dog attacking our chickens - what to do?

What to do?  Simple.  Attack the bloody dog,  and mean it! 

Alec.
		
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Alec, this is a genuine question ... and forgive me if I have muddled you up with someone else, but was it not you who described me as "barbaric" for using an e collar??!

If I remember correctly, could you explain to me why "attacking the bloody dog" - and I presume by that you mean using physical violence on the poor animal - is somehow less barbaric than giving it a nick or zap with an e collar?


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## Richie (2 April 2013)

It's a delicate situation and one you don't want to escalate into a war with your neighbours.

Dogs will kill chickens and ducks and dogs will escape. It's easier to keep you hens fenced off than it is to stop the dog from escaping.

Maybe put the ball in their court and ask your neighbours what they suggest you do to stop your hens from being killed by their dog. Ask them if they want to buy you some fencing and make an enclosure.

I know it's not ideal but probably not worth fighting with your neighbours over.


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## EAST KENT (2 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Re: Dog attacking our chickens - what to do?

What to do?  Simple.  Attack the bloody dog,  and mean it! 

Alec.
		
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Indeed.One of my collies thought it fun to get tighter and tighter circles around a bunch of hens ..pulling out tail feathers at the end of the game.I tried being mean,meaner and meanest..which entailed scruffing her and playing a tune on her ribs with my hunting whip...that last one worked.


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## Nikki J (2 April 2013)

EAST KENT said:



			Indeed.One of my collies thought it fun to get tighter and tighter circles around a bunch of hens ..pulling out tail feathers at the end of the game.I tried being mean,meaner and meanest..which entailed scruffing her and playing a tune on her ribs with my hunting whip...that last one worked.
		
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## Nosey (2 April 2013)

Well during my childhood the technique that was commonplace was to tie the dead chicken round the hen killing dogs collar till it rotted & fell off! Was supposed to turn the dog right off the idea. Obv more suited to farm rather than indoor pet dogs!


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## Coblover63 (3 April 2013)

Obviously some differences of opinion here   So... all you dog trainers, in the interests of sharing knowledge, just how would you instantly reprimand and untrained dog that was attacking a chicken?


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## ILuvCowparsely (3 April 2013)

Custard Cream said:



			Our hens are free roaming around the barn and stable yard out into the paddock, they've been there for about 5 years now. We've only lost 2 or 3 to foxes, so we've been very lucky. 

New people moved into a property on the yard and their dog attacked and killed a hen about a year ago. I've caught him chasing them again this week and today he's attacked another one, which now looks very bald and like it's going to drop down dead. 

What would you do?
		
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Speak to YO about your concerns

  .



 Why should your birds be terrorised by someone who cannot keep their dog under control.

 sorry but if someones dog was chasing my animals they would get 1 warning and say if it happens again , i reserve the right to take emediate action to eliminate the problem.


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## CorvusCorax (3 April 2013)

Coblover63 said:



			Obviously some differences of opinion here   So... all you dog trainers, in the interests of sharing knowledge, just how would you instantly reprimand and untrained dog that was attacking a chicken?
		
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I can't speak for anyone else, but there is a train of thought that a *temporary* period of discomfort for the dog, delivered quickly, fairly and without emotion/temper, is better than a chicken being *permanently* dead.
Or you could give the dog a biccie


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## Jools2345 (3 April 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			I can't speak for anyone else, but there is a train of thought that a *temporary* period of discomfort for the dog, delivered quickly, fairly and without emotion/temper, is better than a chicken being *permanently* dead.
Or you could give the dog a biccie 

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love this and fully agree


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## EAST KENT (3 April 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			I can't speak for anyone else, but there is a train of thought that a *temporary* period of discomfort for the dog, delivered quickly, fairly and without emotion/temper, is better than a chicken being *permanently* dead.
Or you could give the dog a biccie 

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Exactly,the "meanest" option worked a permanent cure,not something I would normally do,but the circumstances offered no alternative.Moss was a great bitch,hard as nails,later in life she saw her job as guarding a new foal..no one except me was allowed near the field. One of her daughters guarded behind the grill of the local post office,such was her reputation ,one of her pups was a special request.The daughter was brilliant at her job,and a great family dog as well.


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## YasandCrystal (3 April 2013)

Nosey said:



			Well during my childhood the technique that was commonplace was to tie the dead chicken round the hen killing dogs collar till it rotted & fell off! Was supposed to turn the dog right off the idea. Obv more suited to farm rather than indoor pet dogs!
		
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I wasn't going to mention it but hubby tied a dead chicken killed by his dog around her neck. She was very strongly reprimanded and then had to carry the chicken around her neck all day. She never killed another chicken and hubby is a farrier so she came across them at many yards daily.


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## Bestdogdash (3 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Re: Dog attacking our chickens - what to do?

What to do?  Simple.  Attack the bloody dog,  and mean it! 

Alec.
		
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Unbelievable....


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## Bestdogdash (3 April 2013)

EAST KENT said:



			Indeed.One of my collies thought it fun to get tighter and tighter circles around a bunch of hens ..pulling out tail feathers at the end of the game.I tried being mean,meaner and meanest..which entailed scruffing her and playing a tune on her ribs with my hunting whip...that last one worked.
		
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Also unbelievable.... That this is an acceptable solution. If I only shout at my dog she thinks her world has fallen apart. Violence is completly unnecessary in training a dog to behave - it comes down to being top dog in the pack, and it only takes intelligence to do that. If I saw anyone beating a dog with a hunting  whip I would immediately report them, and fund any legal prosecution that followed.


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## MotherOfChickens (3 April 2013)

I have a setter who is 100% reliable around my chickens-have never used any force with him. However, anybody else's dog comes after my chickens they will get reasonable force used on them-it's not my bloody job to reason or train other people's dogs around my livestock (most of you would be up in arms about dogs chasing horses!).


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## CorvusCorax (3 April 2013)

Bestdogdash said:



			Also unbelievable.... That this is an acceptable solution. If I only shout at my dog she thinks her world has fallen apart. Violence is completly unnecessary in training a dog to behave - it comes down to being top dog in the pack, and it only takes intelligence to do that. If I saw anyone beating a dog with a hunting  whip I would immediately report them, and fund any legal prosecution that followed.
		
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Yes, but that is YOUR dog. A dog who is not used to or designed to cope with pressure WILL fall apart when you shout at it. Other dogs have prey drives that are so high, they will suffocate themselves rather than let go of their prey if it is obstructing their air supply. It's a narrow view to assume all dogs are the same, a class full of human children don't all learn in the same way, why should we expect every single dog to learn in the same way?

As you have gone through your life, haven't you observed positive or negative consequences for your behaviour? Of course you have. So do dogs.

I wouldn't beat a dog with a hunting whip either but if I saw my dog heading towards and intending to eat another animal then yes, the consequences will be negative. Once the unwanted behaviour stops, then the dog's world becomes a much nicer place.
If the dog never learns about negative AS WELL as positive, how on earth does it know the difference.


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## Bestdogdash (3 April 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Yes, but that is YOUR dog. A dog who is not used to or designed to cope with pressure WILL fall apart when you shout at it. Other dogs have prey drives that are so high, they will suffocate themselves rather than let go of their prey if it is obstructing their air supply. It's a narrow view to assume all dogs are the same, a class full of human children don't all learn in the same way, why should we expect every single dog to learn in the same way?

As you have gone through your life, haven't you observed positive or negative consequences for your behaviour? Of course you have. So do dogs.

I wouldn't beat a dog with a hunting whip either but if I saw my dog heading towards and intending to eat another animal then yes, the consequences will be negative. Once the unwanted behaviour stops, then the dog's world becomes a much nicer place.
If the dog never learns about negative AS WELL as positive, how on earth does it know the difference.
		
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I actually do agree with all you say -  the point I was trying to make was that it is never acceptable to beat a dog with a hunting whip. 

My dog is an English Pointer and completely driven to follow a scent, so it wasn't so easy to get recall down to a tee nor to get her to stop chasing anything that would run. We live in sheep country though, so it had to be sorted. If a strange dog came after my hens it could certainly get a kick or something thrown at it - then a 'you cant let it happen again' chat to the owners - it is their responsibility after all.


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## Clodagh (3 April 2013)

As CC says it toally depends on the dog, both our labrador and lurcher are the sort of dog that if you roll your eyes at the and say 'tsk' they are very sorry. (Disclaimer: unless lurcher is already running in which case save your breath).
In the past we have had hard dogs though, one was a patterdale bitch, an adult, given to my OH to work. If she saw anything moving the red mist descended and you could shout til the cows came home and it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. She was so hard she couldn't even be used for digging foxes and we had her PTS.


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## Nikki J (3 April 2013)

Coblover63 said:



			Obviously some differences of opinion here   So... all you dog trainers, in the interests of sharing knowledge, just how would you instantly reprimand and untrained dog that was attacking a chicken?
		
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I'm not a professional dog trainer, but with a dog that was not mine behaving in this way, I would do my best to block him from his prey to prevent the inevitable.  This at my age isn't easy as I am no longer very nimble, but assuming I could get between him and the chickens I would shout "no" very loudly in a dominating way and if at possible catch him and take him straight back to the owners.  I would not hit the dog, or physically reprimand him in any way, but the dog would be more than aware that he had been naughty from my body language and demeanour.

If it were my dog, then he would have the e collar put on him - as we had to do with Tai with our neighbour's feral chickens here in the village - and just 2 zaps, he now gives that area a very wide berth and if the chickens happen to be on the set-aside - or in their garden but the gate has been left alone - he totally ignores them.


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## Nikki J (3 April 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			I can't speak for anyone else, but there is a train of thought that a *temporary* period of discomfort for the dog, delivered quickly, fairly and without emotion/temper, is better than a chicken being *permanently* dead.
Or you could give the dog a biccie 

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Lol!!  And a pat on the head!!


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## Nikki J (3 April 2013)

Bestdogdash said:



			Also unbelievable.... That this is an acceptable solution. If I only shout at my dog she thinks her world has fallen apart. Violence is completly unnecessary in training a dog to behave - it comes down to being top dog in the pack, and it only takes intelligence to do that. If I saw anyone beating a dog with a hunting  whip I would immediately report them, and fund any legal prosecution that followed.
		
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Well said - as with horses, you do not need to train with violence.  With our boy Ben, if you took a hunting crop to him it would be the very last thing that you ever did with your hands because you would most likely lose them.  He has been badly treated in his life, and will not tolerate physical punishment.  OH grabbed him once by the collar to take him outside because he had peed in our conservatory, and he got a bite for his pains - when he hadn't even hit the dog!  If you actually hit him, you would be in big trouble and worse than that the 2 years of trust we had built up so that we can now do virtually anything to him without fear of a bite will have been destroyed for ever.

As you say, you need to be top dog in the pack, and we do that not by beating, kicking or hitting our dogs, but by being just that - top dog - so that they respect us, love us and want to please us.


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## Nikki J (3 April 2013)

peteralfred said:



			I have a setter who is 100% reliable around my chickens-have never used any force with him. However, anybody else's dog comes after my chickens they will get reasonable force used on them-it's not my bloody job to reason or train other people's dogs around my livestock (most of you would be up in arms about dogs chasing horses!).
		
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Yup, good point!  Actually the chap who owns the chickens that Ben's father had was very reasonable about it, and when Tai also had a couple, because he said that they had escaped onto the set aside and it really wasn't the dog's fault, which I thought was extremely charitable of him.  Had he thrown a stone at Tai, or beaten him with a stick, I would not have objected.  He has every right to defend his chickens, even when they had escaped.  It is my duty as a responsible dog owner to make sure that I have my dog under sufficient control to prevent such accidents happening - even when these stupid birds hide in the long grass so you don't know they are, but at the very last moment when you are just walking past them they leap up squawking "it's the woluf, it's the woluf" and run around like the headless chickens they are very shortly about to become!  The owner wouldn't even accept compensation, which I thought was very good of him.

As for dogs chasing horses - my pet hate.  My boys are brilliant with horses, but often horses can be nervous of them because of what they look like, so we always put them on their harnesses when we see approaching horses, and if the owners allow, we go up to say hello and the dogs love to kiss them and smell their breath.


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## Nikki J (3 April 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Yes, but that is YOUR dog. A dog who is not used to or designed to cope with pressure WILL fall apart when you shout at it. Other dogs have prey drives that are so high, they will suffocate themselves rather than let go of their prey if it is obstructing their air supply. It's a narrow view to assume all dogs are the same, a class full of human children don't all learn in the same way, why should we expect every single dog to learn in the same way?

As you have gone through your life, haven't you observed positive or negative consequences for your behaviour? Of course you have. So do dogs.

I wouldn't beat a dog with a hunting whip either but if I saw my dog heading towards and intending to eat another animal then yes, the consequences will be negative. Once the unwanted behaviour stops, then the dog's world becomes a much nicer place.
If the dog never learns about negative AS WELL as positive, how on earth does it know the difference.
		
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Excellent post - except you presumably are advocating the negative as being a physical negative, such as shaking by the ruff, whacking them over the nose with your hand, with a rolled up newspaper, or whatever means you choose.

So therefore your dog will associate your hand with negativity, with violence.  Never, never, never should the hand be used to inflict pain on a dog or a horse unless in an extreme emergency and totally avoidable.  There is nothing more unpleasant than a head shy horse, or rather a hand shy horse, and a hand shy dog.  My daughter's chiahuahua is hand shy because she will smack him when he has done something she doesn't like, and I hate it.  He flinches when you lift your hand up, and that is terrible.

Whereas my boys - who have the extreme prey drive that you describe - have been trained with an invisible "stick" that is completely disconnected from us, the beloved owners, in the dogs' minds - the e collar.  Which many people will say is the height of cruelty, but the beauty of the e collar is that a little zap of static no worse than a child's game on their neck comes as such a shock to them - it is not pain - as they cannot understand how or why you can suddenly reach across 10's of feet and give them what is the equivalent of sticking a pin in.  You become as a God, and it is kind, safe, reliable and extremely quick.


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## Nikki J (3 April 2013)

Clodagh said:



			As CC says it toally depends on the dog, both our labrador and lurcher are the sort of dog that if you roll your eyes at the and say 'tsk' they are very sorry. (Disclaimer: unless lurcher is already running in which case save your breath).
In the past we have had hard dogs though, one was a patterdale bitch, an adult, given to my OH to work. If she saw anything moving the red mist descended and you could shout til the cows came home and it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. She was so hard she couldn't even be used for digging foxes and we had her PTS.
		
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A perfect candidate for an e collar, what a shame you had her PTS when literally within a few minutes you could have saved her.  I know exactly what you mean by the red mist, once it descends there is NOTHING that will penetrate that - they go deaf and blind but totally focussed on whatever it is they are chasing.  I say nothing - there is one thing, an e collar, a kind, humane, quick and simple solution.


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## Jools2345 (3 April 2013)

Nikki J said:



			A perfect candidate for an e collar, what a shame you had her PTS when literally within a few minutes you could have saved her.  I know exactly what you mean by the red mist, once it descends there is NOTHING that will penetrate that - they go deaf and blind but totally focussed on whatever it is they are chasing.  I say nothing - there is one thing, an e collar, a kind, humane, quick and simple solution.
		
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i have agreed with you on some points of the e collars before as i have used one with success on one of my dogs, i however would/could not criticise in the way you have above.
also if feel an e collar is not God and will not stop every dog in its tracks/cure ever dog from it bad behaviour but i do believe that they have a place in careful hands. your above posts do come across a bit slap dash too, i.e chuck an e collar on zap the dog problem solved-they need to be used with care and caution and when they are they can be produce the required effect


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## Nikki J (3 April 2013)

Jools2345 said:



			i have agreed with you on some points of the e collars before as i have used one with success on one of my dogs, i however would/could not criticise in the way you have above.
also if feel an e collar is not God and will not stop every dog in its tracks/cure ever dog from it bad behaviour but i do believe that they have a place in careful hands. your above posts do come across a bit slap dash too, i.e chuck an e collar on zap the dog problem solved-they need to be used with care and caution and when they are they can be produce the required effect
		
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Sorry, I didn't mean to come across so slapdash.  You are quite right to correct me, you do need to know what you're doing.  I use the word "zap" because "shock" implies an electric shock, which is not what a "zap" is, so I have learned that it is far less emotive to say "zap".  Stim in fact is the correct word to use in dog training circles, but I feel that that somehow implies an electrical current, which is not what an e collar is all about.

We had a day training session with an expert e collar trainer and my husband has been in several long skype conversations with a chap in the States who works for Dogtra - I think his name is Lou Castle, but not sure about that.  He has been most helpful in ironing out the crinkles, and as I say, we now have 2 mally crosses who can be safely let off the lead, even around livestock although we would not risk that just to be on the safe side and to be good, responsible dog owners.


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## CorvusCorax (3 April 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Excellent post - except you presumably are advocating the negative as being a physical negative, such as shaking by the ruff, whacking them over the nose with your hand, with a rolled up newspaper, or whatever means you choose.

So therefore your dog will associate your hand with negativity, with violence.  


You become as a God, and it is kind, safe, reliable and extremely quick.
		
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I mean whatever the dog perceives as negative - a dog mentioned on this thread, collapses with a harsh word. It could be simply a release of tension on a lead, or it could be a physical reprimand. Whatever suits that dog.

A dog also associates the hand with the positive, with a stroke or the administration of food. I've used a bite roll to tap or apply pressure to a dog's flank to get it to turn a corner tighter. The same bite roll is used to reward the dog for focus and tight cornering. 

The blessing and the curse with an e-collar, since you mentioned it, was that very often the dog will NOT link the correction to the human - they think that 'God' is doing it, it comes out of nowhere, it does not come from the human.

Also, re the Patterdale, you cannot say if an e-collar would have cured it - it may have laughed at the highest setting, such was it's drive.


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## EAST KENT (3 April 2013)

Hmm,glad to hear from all you dog experts.Moss would simply disappear on the farmyard and when discovered that was what she was doing.The alternative?A dead dog.I had no E Collar with a remote,my method worked.It works on erstwhile foxhounds too,their alternative is the bullet.would I do it again?If no E collar was to hand..absa-bloody-lutely.


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## Nikki J (4 April 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			I mean whatever the dog perceives as negative - a dog mentioned on this thread, collapses with a harsh word. It could be simply a release of tension on a lead, or it could be a physical reprimand. Whatever suits that dog.

A dog also associates the hand with the positive, with a stroke or the administration of food. I've used a bite roll to tap or apply pressure to a dog's flank to get it to turn a corner tighter. The same bite roll is used to reward the dog for focus and tight cornering. 

The blessing and the curse with an e-collar, since you mentioned it, was that very often the dog will NOT link the correction to the human - they think that 'God' is doing it, it comes out of nowhere, it does not come from the human.

Also, re the Patterdale, you cannot say if an e-collar would have cured it - it may have laughed at the highest setting, such was it's drive.
		
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I'm a bit confused by "bite roll" - what's that?

In the opinion of our e collar man who gave us a day's hands on training with our e collar, they very, very rarely fail - he personally has never had a failure, only ever successes.  However, to give you the benefit of the doubt, if you know of failures, that I must accept, but certainly in our experience it has literally saved the life of my boy.  He is a very intelligent dog which may account for the miraculous effect of the e collar, but when my husband first started training with the e collar, Ben would look at him as if to say "Cor blimey!  How d'ya manage to do that mate?  Right OK, I'll come toute suite!"  Now on the very very rare occasion that Ben does not immediately recall - usually because he has espied a black labrador and thinks he should go and flatten it - just a very low level stim, and he immediately comes gallumphing back full of the joys of spring!

Re the Patterdale, I would personally try ANYTHING to avoid having my dog destroyed - even using something like an e collar, which to me was very distasteful.  I was actually in tears over it, and begged my husband not to hurt him.  Thankfully, he didn't need to - but even now, I hate it when he uses it.  With my Ben it was that or have him pts as well, because you could never have kept him on a lead the whole time, it would have been cruel in the extreme unless we worked him in harness and we cannot afford a wheeled sledge, they cost a fortune.


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## Nikki J (4 April 2013)

EAST KENT said:



			Hmm,glad to hear from all you dog experts.Moss would simply disappear on the farmyard and when discovered that was what she was doing.The alternative?A dead dog.I had no E Collar with a remote,my method worked.It works on erstwhile foxhounds too,their alternative is the bullet.would I do it again?If no E collar was to hand..absa-bloody-lutely.

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You did what you had to do at the time East Kent.  Moss was a hobo, like a yellow lab that we had when I was a child.  We had him pts - no e collars in those days!


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## cremedemonthe (4 April 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			I agree with CC, contact the owners and also say you want compensating, Ive no idea what point of lay pullets are, *a fiver each ?* more if they are a specific breed. Also after a shock like that it will put them off lay, not that they will be laying much in this weather but then they wont know that.
		
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AND the rest!
I'm just about to buy some POL Maran pullets, range from £25 to £40 each, less for hybrids.I wouldn't tolerate any animal attacking my hens, I would attack the dog and mean it as Alec suggested.It wouldn't do it again.
I would also want compensating for the loss of birds.


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2013)

Nikki J said:



			I'm a bit confused by "bite roll" - what's that?
		
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It's a tug toy basically, but the point being, it can be a thing to apply pressure to the dog or it can be a super fun toy, depending on how the dog behaves.
The hand can give out pats or the hand can administer a correction - depending on how the dog behaves. A dog will not fear or be shy of something it gets a pleasurable experience from.
You can also give the dog a stim from an e-collar and then feed it, so the dog associates a correction with an immediate positive.


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## Nikki J (4 April 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			It's a tug toy basically, but the point being, it can be a thing to apply pressure to the dog or it can be a super fun toy, depending on how the dog behaves.
The hand can give out pats or the hand can administer a correction - depending on how the dog behaves. A dog will not fear or be shy of something it gets a pleasurable experience from.
You can also give the dog a stim from an e-collar and then feed it, so the dog associates a correction with an immediate positive.
		
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Ah right, thanks for that, I think I have seen those - a bit like a mini cosh?  I think I will stick to my e collar!

I still do not agree at all with using the hand as a tool of punishment as well as pleasure.  I am not saying that this form of training does not work - I am sure in many cases it does, else clearly people would not use it - but it certainly would not work on my wolfie boys, and with Ben, you would end up getting bitten, to the detriment of the dog.  If OH has had to give him a stim as a reminder that he expects him to come as soon as he is called, the dog is given huge praise - we personally don't reward with titbits, simply because our dogs are not food-motivated, or toy-motivated.  With many northern breeds, especially those with a bit more recent wolf in them such as Czechs, Saarloos, they are really not motivated by food or toys, or actually even physical pats and praise - Ben's father Hal, our old wolf cross, couldn't give a stuff about titbits, being patted, or praised.  He was Mr Aloof, the "cat" who walked by himself and only gave a damn about doing what HE wanted to do.  He hated to be overtly patted or praised, but secretly and without wishing to lose ANY of his street cred, he liked to have his gracious accession to his owners' demands to be acknowledged!! 

But for Ben, some lavish praise when he comes to you when called is all the reward he needs.


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## Nikki J (4 April 2013)

cremedemonthe said:



			AND the rest!
I'm just about to buy some POL Maran pullets, range from £25 to £40 each, less for hybrids.I wouldn't tolerate any animal attacking my hens, I would attack the dog and mean it as Alec suggested.It wouldn't do it again.
I would also want compensating for the loss of birds.
		
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Best keep my wolves well away from your brood, otherwise I'll be stoney broke then!!!

Joking apart, we are all entitled to defend our own in whatever means we think fit.  When Ben attacked our next door neighbour's black labrador, the owner beat him continuously as hard as he could over Ben's back with his walking stick - fair do's, the bloke was only defending his dog.  Not something I would have done, but each to his own.


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Ah right, thanks for that, I think I have seen those - a bit like a mini cosh?  I think I will stick to my e collar!

We personally don't reward with titbits, simply because our dogs are not food-motivated, or toy-motivated.  With many northern breeds, especially those with a bit more recent wolf in them such as Czechs, Saarloos, they are really not motivated by food or toys, or actually even physical pats and praise.
		
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Er, no, it's a tug, a toy, not a cosh. Why would I praise my dog by giving it a cosh?! I just touch him on the flank with him when we are turning a corner to remind him to get his ass around quickly, then, yep, pressure off, play with it.

Possibly straying off topic, but I understood the reason that GSD were bred into other breeds to create these types of dog was to create 'the best of both' and create a more trainable, biddable dog for work, border patrol etc, if the end result isn't motivated by the two of the main motivators used to train working dogs (even the rufftiest tufftiest police dogs are trained with a ball), then what was the point? Looks?


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## Alec Swan (4 April 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Alec, this is a genuine question ... and forgive me if I have muddled you up with someone else, but was it not you who described me as "barbaric" for using an e collar??!

If I remember correctly, could you explain to me why "attacking the bloody dog" - and I presume by that you mean using physical violence on the poor animal - is somehow less barbaric than giving it a nick or zap with an e collar?
		
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By all means,  and I apologise for being otherwise occupied.  

The canine mind is actually a relatively simple engine.  It relies upon pleasure and pain.  That's not _"necessarily"_ physical pain,  but a sense of discomfort or disquiet.  The trained dog is an extension of it's handler,  and is a willing and welcome servant.

How do we achieve the happy state of discipline?  That's simple,  we either buy an electrical aid,  and carefully follow the instructions,  OR,  we learn how to interact with a dog,  we learn how to have the dog listen,  how to make eye contact,  and how to teach the dog to accept our instructions and our demands.  The dog trainer uses one system,  and those who aren't dog trainers,  but think that they are,  use the other.  Work it out for yourself,  which is which.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (4 April 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			.......

You can also give the dog a stim from an e-collar and then feed it, so the dog associates a correction with an immediate positive.
		
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Honestly?  Correct any dog,  and then administer pleasure,  and you will teach the dog to ignore the correction.  

Unless I've misunderstood you,  I'm staggered at your quote.

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2013)

Nikki J said:



			I still do not agree at all with using the hand as a tool of punishment as well as pleasure.
		
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Just wondering when things like e-collars and choke chains are banned (like they are already in some countries) what you'll use?!


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Honestly?  Correct any dog,  and then administer pleasure,  and you will teach the dog to ignore the correction.  

Unless I've misunderstood you,  I'm staggered at your quote.

Alec.
		
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You have misunderstood me. It's pressure and release - correct the unwanted behaviour by applying pressure (tightness on a lead).
The dog executes the behaviour you want - the first positive is the release of pressure (loosen the lead), the second positive is a vocal marker that the dog has done good/reward.
It's a system used through many disciplines with success.

The e-collar/stim/feeding thing is separate issue to ^^^ that and is too convoluted to go into. I'm saying it's something you CAN do.


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## Alec Swan (4 April 2013)

Nikki J said:



			.......

I still do not agree at all with using the hand as a tool of punishment as well as pleasure.  

........
		
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The most vital tools,  in the box of the trainer,  are his voice,  and his hands.  It's been that way for centuries,  and will remain so.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (4 April 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Just wondering when things like e-collars and choke chains are banned (like they are already in some countries) what you'll use?!
		
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That's easily answered,  we'll go back to basics.  The basics being our hands,  our voices,  and our relationship with the dog.  

I understand that there are those on here who have serious issues with my argument,  but I know of many successful and professional trainers,  and don't know of one who relies upon gadgets.

Alec.


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## EAST KENT (4 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			That's easily answered,  we'll go back to basics.  The basics being our hands,  our voices,  and our relationship with the dog.  

I understand that there are those on here who have serious issues with my argument,  but I know of many successful and professional trainers,  and don't know of one who relies upon gadgets.

Alec.
		
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Do you know I never even thought of giving the bitch a biscuit


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## Nikki J (6 April 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Er, no, it's a tug, a toy, not a cosh. Why would I praise my dog by giving it a cosh?! I just touch him on the flank with him when we are turning a corner to remind him to get his ass around quickly, then, yep, pressure off, play with it.

Possibly straying off topic, but I understood the reason that GSD were bred into other breeds to create these types of dog was to create 'the best of both' and create a more trainable, biddable dog for work, border patrol etc, if the end result isn't motivated by the two of the main motivators used to train working dogs (even the rufftiest tufftiest police dogs are trained with a ball), then what was the point? Looks?
		
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By "cosh" I meant shaped like a cosh, not used like one - sometimes the written word over the internet is not the best way of communication, is it!  I get what you're saying now, a TOUCH on the flank with the bite roll to get the dog to do a tighter turn - a bit like squeezing a horse with your right leg to get him to turn left, the horse moves away from the pressure.  Sounds good to me, as you long as you do no harder than a touch or tap 

When you refer to GSD being bred into "other breeds", I am assuming you are referring to the Czech Wolfdog.  I am not sure whether Saarloos created the Saarloos Wolfdog by mixing wolf with GSD, and certainly Utonagans and Northern Inuits (which were originally the one breed - I was very good friends to the original creator who lived in Notts and from whom I purchased my old wolf cross Hal) - were not predominantly GSD, despite what you may have heard.  The very, very original "starter" mix was indeed GSD with wolf (despite again what you will have been told, having known the original breeder, I am fully aware of the facts), but this lady (who was a GSD breeder before she got involved with her wolf cross idea in the early 80's) found that the wolf/GSD mix was far too forward going, too assertive, and so experimented with wolf/Alaskan Malamute mix.  This she found to be a lot better, but as any with a Mal knows they can be extremely stubborn, are prone to running and running and never coming back and they have a tendency to be same-sex aggressive - in other words the males can be overtly aggressive towards other males, and the females to other females.  So, she then tried a third mix of Siberian Husky and found wolf x mal x husky the best combination, and that is what all utes and northern inuits are based on - mal x husky but some good old original wolf genes in there as well, along with a trace of the GSD experimentation.

Sorry, I have strayed off the point.  The Czech Wolfdog I think is probably the breed to which you refer - the CWD is a cross between Carpathian wolf and GSD, to create as you rightly say a border patrol guard dog.  You have a dog with the assertiveness and guardiness of a GSD, highly intelligent, bold and brave who would be totally loyal to his handler - apart from the highly intelligent bit, I would not describe a wolf as loyal, bold or brave, except in the defence of it's young and pack resources.  But by mixing wolf with a dog who excels in boldness, intelligence AND loyalty coupled with extreme assertiveness (wolves are not assertive), a perfect dog for border patrolling etc. was created.  They are magnificent creatures, and for a few weeks we fostered a wolf x CWD (mother = pure wolf, father = CWD) youngster we named Bruce!  We had him from 9 weeks until he was about 5 or 6 months I think, and he used to sleep in our bedroom and adored our utonagan Tai.  He was an absolute character.  Anyway, I digress yet again.

So to answer your final point - wolves and wolf crosses are the most playful of animals - Bruce, Hal, his son Ben - they ADORE playing, being the highly intelligent animals that they are.  It is ritualised hunting of course, the ball being the prey.  But can you tap a wolf on the flank with your bite roll to make him turn a corner tighter?  Yes of course you can, he would respond immediately, knowing exactly what you meant him to do.  Could you whack him on the flank with your bite roll hard to try and "punish" him into turning?  Well, you could - but you would regret it!!


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## Nikki J (6 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			By all means,  and I apologise for being otherwise occupied.  

The canine mind is actually a relatively simple engine.  It relies upon pleasure and pain.  That's not _"necessarily"_ physical pain,  but a sense of discomfort or disquiet.  The trained dog is an extension of it's handler,  and is a willing and welcome servant.

How do we achieve the happy state of discipline?  That's simple,  we either buy an electrical aid,  and carefully follow the instructions,  OR,  we learn how to interact with a dog,  we learn how to have the dog listen,  how to make eye contact,  and how to teach the dog to accept our instructions and our demands.  The dog trainer uses one system,  and those who aren't dog trainers,  but think that they are,  use the other.  Work it out for yourself,  which is which.

Alec.
		
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No probs - nice to hear from you now!  I disagree entirely about the canine mind being relatively simple - I think that is being extremely anthropomorphic and very condescending!!  It is also forgetting wherein the dog's origins lie, and who his ancestors are.  Having lived with a wolf, and having lived with dogs, and having lived with a mix of both, I can categorically say that there is nothing "relatively simple" about the canis lupus genus!!  I will accept largely your statement that the well-trained dog should be a willing servant - I am an old-fashioned girl who believes in "pack theory" and that the rules of the game are that we invite our tame "wolf" to live with us, in our house, as a trusted and valued member of our pack, BUT ... Two Legs Rules OK!  In return for us feeding them, nurturing them, keeping them sheltered from the elements, they must be obedient to us and accept our house rules, which will vary from pack to pack, or rather I should say household to household.  For instance, in our house, dogs are not fed at table, or allowed to beg at table, but they are allowed to lie down quietly under the table whilst we eat.  They are allowed on the "doggie sofa", but only if we don't want to sit there and they must get down the instant we say.  They are not allowed on any other furniture.  They are allowed freedom of the house and they sleep in their own bedroom next door to our's in an empty room on the floor.  They know their place, which is at the bottom of the heap.

Right, to move onto the e collar.  Do you honestly think that I am so stupid and so inhumane that I would "just buy an electrical aid" (misnomer, btw!) and not bother to spend the hundreds and hundreds of hours, hundreds of pounds in money, frozen my boobs off walking across miles of frozen wastes or trudging through deep mud, sought help, bought books, researched the internet, plumbed the depths of my 40+ years experience of living with dogs to try and find a way to stop my beautiful Ben from refusing to recall reliably?  He is a massive dog, weighing in at 45 kilos, he was wilful, aggressive if challenged, spoiled, disobedient and frankly he should have been put down most likely when we rescued him a couple of years ago.  Coincidentally, he turned out to be the grandson of our wolf cross Hal, so once I knew that, I knew we had hope, there was a chance.  In the past 2 years, we patiently sorted out every single problem through patient, gentle but firm handling.  You mention eye contact - that is and can be a problem with wolf crosses, and it was with Ben, but gradually he learned to trust us, that when he took him by the collar it did not mean he was being dragged away to get a beating or being chained up on concrete for 3 years with no shelter, as he endured.  He learned that when he looked at him and spoke to him and maintained eye contact, he did not need to woo aggressively at us.  My husband was bitten by him when he had peed in the conservatory, and he just took him by the collar to take him out into the garden.  He turned on the hand that fed him through sheer fear.  But we stuck with him when many would have had him destroyed, my husband included!

But we failed in one thing - we failed to overcome his genetic make up which consists mainly of Alaskan Malamute, with a bit of Siberian Husky and some wolf from several generations ago - and we could not let him off the lead except in an enclosure where we knew he could not escape from, which meant virtually nowhere because he can jump, climb and dig.  So - we were presented with 2 alternatives.  To never let him off the lead - I would not condemn him to such a life - or pay thousands of pounds on an expensive rig on wheels so that we could work him in harness.  Out of the question.  So we consulted various dog trainers/behaviourists that we knew of, and none could help.  The last one told us as a last resort to try an e collar.  My husband is a medical scientist with a degree in human biology as well as zoology, so very capable of researching a subject thoroughly, which he did.  He found out the best makes, and contacted the manufacturer Dogtra who put him onto their "e-collar man" in the States - I think his name is Lou Castle, but am not sure, and to cut a very long story short, Ben is now totally 100% reliable to let off the lead.

I will post some pictures when I get back from walking them so you can see for yourself how traumatised and unhappy he is living with us cruel people who cannot be bothered to interact with their dog properly, or maintain eye contact, or spend time training their dog with *kind* methods like the ones you use - physical violence, in other words


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## Nikki J (6 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Honestly?  Correct any dog,  and then administer pleasure,  and you will teach the dog to ignore the correction.  

Unless I've misunderstood you,  I'm staggered at your quote.

Alec.
		
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Alec, like all anti e-collar people, with the greatest respect, you are talking through your fundament!  You have absolutely no idea about how the e collar works, have you.  I suggest you do some research before commenting, because you are showing crass ignorance!

I don't want to be rude, you are more than entitled to your opinion, but I cannot let this go!!

If you want me to explain to you why the e collar works, just say the word and I will.


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## Nikki J (6 April 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Just wondering when things like e-collars and choke chains are banned (like they are already in some countries) what you'll use?!
		
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Please don't compare an e collar with a choke chain!  Choke chains are cruel and can cause physical damage to a dog like mine who will "pull" naturally - the minute they feel resistance on the lead or the collar, they will pull harder, hence they can end up with horrendous injuries to their necks.  You have to let the lead go slack when they start to pull, and control that pulling with your voice, at the most giving a momentary tug, but NEVER pulling.

E collars are banned in Wales.  If they were ever banned in England, I would continue using one simply because you cannot tell my boy is wearing one because of his double coat.


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## Nikki J (6 April 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			You have misunderstood me. It's pressure and release - correct the unwanted behaviour by applying pressure (tightness on a lead).
The dog executes the behaviour you want - the first positive is the release of pressure (loosen the lead), the second positive is a vocal marker that the dog has done good/reward.
It's a system used through many disciplines with success.

The e-collar/stim/feeding thing is separate issue to ^^^ that and is too convoluted to go into. I'm saying it's something you CAN do.
		
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EXACTLY!!  Just like with horses - they move away from the pressure of your leg, the pressure then stops because they have turned in the direction you wanted them to go.  You squeeze your left hand on the left rein to turn the head, squeeze your right leg, they turn left, pressure stops, everyone's happy.

With Ben, he is happily running along on his walk.  Deer gets up, Ben and Tai in hot pursuit.  They are whistled and called "Come".  They instantly give up on the chase, and return to their Master.  If Ben carries on though longer than Tai, and ignores the first "Come", he will get a light stim.  This then causes him to return toute suite, to praise from OH.  If he still did not come, he would get a slightly higher stim - obviously all this is taking place within seconds.

Interestingly, despite a breed with an extremely high prey drive, OH has never had to do more than 2 stims EVER.  And in the whole time we have had this e collar, he has only had to stim Ben less than 20 times.  There is a vibrate setting on it too, and this should always be tried first as an alert to the dog.  ~First and foremost, must always come the voice command.


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## Nikki J (6 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			The most vital tools,  in the box of the trainer,  are his voice,  and his hands.  It's been that way for centuries,  and will remain so.

Alec.
		
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Now that's the best thing I have ever heard you say!  As long as the hands are not used for punishing of course.


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## Nikki J (6 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			That's easily answered,  we'll go back to basics.  The basics being our hands,  our voices,  and our relationship with the dog.  

I understand that there are those on here who have serious issues with my argument,  but I know of many successful and professional trainers,  and don't know of one who relies upon gadgets.

Alec.
		
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Again, I totally agree.  Always, always, always go back to basics.

But occasionally, in very severe cases like my Ben, nothing will work.  You will have of course to trust and believe me on this one.  It was try the e collar, or have the dog put down.  We could not rehome him, he was too damaged.

I'm going to post some piccies, then you can see how amazing he is!


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## Nikki J (6 April 2013)

Here's a photograph of Ben taken recently lying in the snow on our garden table - his favourite perch!

I think everyone will agree how cruelly he is treated by us!!







and on the beach in Norfolk:


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## Dry Rot (6 April 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Again, I totally agree.  Always, always, always go back to basics.

But occasionally, in very severe cases like my Ben, nothing will work.  You will have of course to trust and believe me on this one.  It was try the e collar, or have the dog put down.  We could not rehome him, he was too damaged.

I'm going to post some piccies, then you can see how amazing he is!
		
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The last time I read so many posts praising e-collars on so little evidence was from a guy selling them!

Here are some of mine trained without an e-collar. There are another twenty dogs out of frame. AND I keep free range poultry! 

What's the matter with giving an offender a light tap across the nose with a small switch when they even look at a hen? That's the way it has been done for hundreds of years. If we call it aversion therapy, does that make it sound better?


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## Nikki J (6 April 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			The last time I read so many posts praising e-collars on so little evidence was from a guy selling them!

Here are some of mine trained without an e-collar. There are another twenty dogs out of frame. AND I keep free range poultry! 

What's the matter with giving an offender a light tap across the nose with a small switch when they even look at a hen? That's the way it has been done for hundreds of years. If we call it aversion therapy, does that make it sound better? 






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What FABULOUS dogs!!  However ... if you think that you could achieve that perfect scene with the same number of northern breed types, then think again!!

I think we are just talking at complete cross purposes here though.  I do not use an e collar to train a perfect stay, a sit, a leave, whatever.  All these things I have taught even my difficult boys to do without recoursing to an e collar.  I am talking about training a reliable recall in order to save the dog's life. 

If you tapped Ben on the nose with a switch you would end up minus at least several digits, if not the whole hand.  In my opinion, to train ANY dog like that is unacceptable.  To train any dog using an e collar is unacceptable also.  You do not use an e collar, as I have said before, unless all other resources have been tried professionally and failed.  We had a problem - Ben would not recall, so on professional advice we tried the e collar route.  Problem solved.


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## CorvusCorax (6 April 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Please don't compare an e collar with a choke chain!  

Choke chains are cruel
		
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No, they're not. Sorry, but you are talking out your fundamental in this instance. They're like any tool, like the e-collar, it is what you make it.

They can be used the same as any flat collar. You can clip your lead onto any link instead of fumbling for one D-ring. You can make it as tight or as loose as you want (and still acting as a flat collar) depending on which ring you clip the lead on to. They can be worn in water, in the sea, in the mud, and never fall apart. And sometimes, if you need it, you can clip the lead onto the live ring if you need a bit of power steering.
The same as Dry Rot's slip line pretty much, only made of metal. My dog hears his rattling and goes mad, hardly the mark of a dog who associates it with cruelty.

And I will have to disagree with the CWD thing - if they were such good utility dogs, you'd be tripping over them as police or service dogs. And...we're not. (I think there was a half and half on one of those police K9 shows). Most of the dual purpose police dogs in the UK are German, Dutch, or Belgian Shepherds, bred in house from imported lines or imported from abroad because we are breeding all the traits that make good working dogs, out, to pander to the pet market).


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## Nikki J (6 April 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			No, they're not. Sorry, but you are talking out your fundamental in this instance. They're like any tool, like the e-collar, it is what you make it.

They can be used the same as any flat collar. You can clip your lead onto any link instead of fumbling for one D-ring. You can make it as tight or as loose as you want (and still acting as a flat collar) depending on which ring you clip the lead on to. They can be worn in water, in the sea, in the mud, and never fall apart. And sometimes, if you need it, you can clip the lead onto the live ring if you need a bit of power steering.
The same as Dry Rot's slip line pretty much, only made of metal. My dog hears his rattling and goes mad, hardly the mark of a dog who associates it with cruelty.

And I will have to disagree with the CWD thing - if they were such good utility dogs, you'd be tripping over them as police or service dogs. And...we're not. (I think there was a half and half on one of those police K9 shows). Most of the dual purpose police dogs in the UK are German, Dutch, or Belgian Shepherds, bred in house from imported lines or imported from abroad because we are breeding all the traits that make good working dogs, out, to pander to the pet market).
		
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I do not like choke chains.  I am fully aware how to use them, and how they work, and I do not like them and for my particular type of dog they are cruel.  We will have to agree to disagree!

On the CWD point though, you are wrong for the simple reason that until very recently they were a banned breed, being wolf crosses.  The police and service would NEVER have been allowed to use wolf crosses, and sadly it would be a very long time, if ever, before they would be because of the ignorance of most people regarding wolves as granny and children devourers!!

I am a huge fan of GSDs, aside from their hip and roach back problems, but give me a CWD any day.  But sadly we will never see them patrolling our football grounds and streets


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## CorvusCorax (6 April 2013)

Nikki J said:



			I do not like choke chains.  I am fully aware how to use them, and how they work, and I do not like them and for my particular type of dog they are cruel.  We will have to agree to disagree!

On the CWD point though, you are wrong for the simple reason that until very recently they were a banned breed, being wolf crosses.  The police and service would NEVER have been allowed to use wolf crosses, and sadly it would be a very long time, if ever, before they would be because of the ignorance of most people regarding wolves as granny and children devourers!!

I am a huge fan of GSDs, aside from their hip and roach back problems, but give me a CWD any day.  But sadly we will never see them patrolling our football grounds and streets 

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You might not like them, but they are no more cruel than an electric collar. They are just a collar made of chain links and can be deployed in exactly the same way as a collar made of webbing, leather etc, they only 'choke' if you connect the lead to the live ring.

My GSD has neither a roach back or hip problems, in fact none of our dogs have ever had hip problems, if you go for good scoring stock and don't splat them off hard surfaces in youth you have a reasonably good chance of not having a dog with hip problems.
All numerically large breeds have heritable health issues.

Re the CWD, we will have to agree to disagree, there was a half CWD in a UK force several years ago as mentioned. There is no deliberate desire to source them, from what I have been told by people on the ground. 
How would the wolf side cope with things like busy traffic, large crowds of people etc?
Police dogs also need to be easily trainable, there's a fine line between taking out of their handler when they get corrected and having the strength courage to take on an adversary. It takes a lot of selective breeding to be able to achieve that.

*The Czech Wolfdog I think is probably the breed to which you refer - the CWD is a cross between Carpathian wolf and GSD, to create as you rightly say a border patrol guard dog. You have a dog with the assertiveness and guardiness of a GSD, highly intelligent, bold and brave who would be totally loyal to his handler - apart from the highly intelligent bit, I would not describe a wolf as loyal, bold or brave, except in the defence of it's young and pack resources. But by mixing wolf with a dog who excels in boldness, intelligence AND loyalty coupled with extreme assertiveness (wolves are not assertive), a perfect dog for border patrolling etc. was created*

- So, never mind what the GSD part was for, what was the wolf bit for, if they are not loyal, bold, brave, or assertive? There are plenty of defensive GSDs out there. The Czechs were already and still do breed GSDs which defend themselves and their handlers pretty well.

But anyway, I'll leave the last word to you, this thread was originally about chickens


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## willhegofirst (6 April 2013)

I haven't read the whole post, but when we first got out eldest spinone she was 
eleven months and thought the hens were fair game, we tried having her on a lead with them, in the end my OH let her out with them, when she went for one he threw a hard ball on a rope at her, it hit her on the side, she connected the hen with the ball hitting her and other than one occasion when one panicked right in front of her, she has never touched them since.


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## Nikki J (7 April 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			You might not like them, but they are no more cruel than an electric collar. They are just a collar made of chain links and can be deployed in exactly the same way as a collar made of webbing, leather etc, they only 'choke' if you connect the lead to the live ring.

My GSD has neither a roach back or hip problems, in fact none of our dogs have ever had hip problems, if you go for good scoring stock and don't splat them off hard surfaces in youth you have a reasonably good chance of not having a dog with hip problems.
All numerically large breeds have heritable health issues.

Re the CWD, we will have to agree to disagree, there was a half CWD in a UK force several years ago as mentioned. There is no deliberate desire to source them, from what I have been told by people on the ground. 
How would the wolf side cope with things like busy traffic, large crowds of people etc?
Police dogs also need to be easily trainable, there's a fine line between taking out of their handler when they get corrected and having the strength courage to take on an adversary. It takes a lot of selective breeding to be able to achieve that.

*The Czech Wolfdog I think is probably the breed to which you refer - the CWD is a cross between Carpathian wolf and GSD, to create as you rightly say a border patrol guard dog. You have a dog with the assertiveness and guardiness of a GSD, highly intelligent, bold and brave who would be totally loyal to his handler - apart from the highly intelligent bit, I would not describe a wolf as loyal, bold or brave, except in the defence of it's young and pack resources. But by mixing wolf with a dog who excels in boldness, intelligence AND loyalty coupled with extreme assertiveness (wolves are not assertive), a perfect dog for border patrolling etc. was created*

- So, never mind what the GSD part was for, what was the wolf bit for, if they are not loyal, bold, brave, or assertive? There are plenty of defensive GSDs out there. The Czechs were already and still do breed GSDs which defend themselves and their handlers pretty well.

But anyway, I'll leave the last word to you, this thread was originally about chickens 

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I know!!  I keep telling myself this thread is about chickens, but my fingers don't listen!!

Wolves actually are not loyal, bold or assertive, not where man is concerned.  Anything on 2 legs to a wolf = danger, and wild wolves will move heaven and earth to avoid man because of the centuries of persecution they have had to endure from man once man ceased being a hunter gathered and settled down in one place, started cutting down the forest for farming.  Wolves then ceased to be man's best friend, and became man's enemy, tragically and I believe at the detriment of the farmers, because they would have kept down prey animals wanting to eat man's crops.

But if you can mix wolf genes with dog genes - they are in fact the same genes, but with thousands of years of domestication "wolf" aka domestic dog has lost his fear of man - as in Carpathian wolf crossed with GSD, then you can set out about creating an animal with the intelligence and cunning of the wolf along with the bravery of the wolf when it comes to defending his pack and his cubs combined with the strong shepherding/herding and guarding instinct of the GSD (honed into being a good attack dog).  The CWD to my mind is the perfect dog for our police, for prisons, border patrol.

A wolf would not cope at all with crowds, busy streets etc. as already described, but the mix with GSD in the case of the CWD has created a perfect police dog IMO.  Maybe one day we will see such a thing, but with wolf crosses having only just been made legal in this country, I think it will take a few years, but it may well come.  I really hope so, they are truly stupendous dogs.  I have loads of piccies if anyone wants me to post up a couple.


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## Custard Cream (7 April 2013)

Crikey, I hadn't checked back on this thread since after reading the first few posts so am amazed at how interesting it has got!

A little update. The hen in question survived and seems to be doing OK. This is the second time this dog has attacked the hens. The first time the hen didn't survive. Owner suitable upset by it all, said she'd get rid of the dog (this infuriated me...owner was the problem, not the dog as it was only 4 months old at the time) promised to do training, not let it out unsupervised etc etc. Of course this was all rubbish and nothing changed. 

The dogs owner rents a house and a block of stables which are fenced off the plot of land we walk through to get to our stables and the chickens are free roaming around the whole area. The dog should be trained, but nothing has been done and it's allowed to run about doing what it likes. 

We are moving soon, our chickens will be coming with us....but how long before the dog gets fed up of chickens and goes for lambs?

Ho Hum, thanks for all your input


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