# Vets, barefoot, evidence-based medicine...........



## MontyandZoom (27 October 2012)

I'm a 4th year at vet school and have been reading with interest the NUMEROUS posts about shoeing vs barefoot trimming.

I got to thinking about why this method of treatment has not filtered into the mainstream in terms of vets and teaching. There are lots of posts on here which talk about vets 'not knowing any better' than remedial shoeing, but this strikes me as unfair.

As a vet you should always be able to defend your chosen treatment in terms of evidence based medicine. The benefits of a particular treatment having been shown in a peer-reviewed, published study with a significant enough sample size. 

If barefoot trimming really is so much better than shoeing, surely people should be lobbying for studies to be done to prove it. (they may be some already.....I'm not sure). Otherwise how can vets legally and ethically recommend it on purely anecdotal evidence? I am not at all dismissive of it but would like to know what it going on in terms of moving forward in barefoot trimming and veterinary medicine.


----------



## dressagelove (27 October 2012)

MontyandZoom said:



			If barefoot trimming really is so much better than shoeing, surely people should be lobbying for studies to be done to prove it. (they may be some already.....I'm not sure). .
		
Click to expand...

I think there is a certain amount of this going on...

Also, the point you make is fine, but why are vets so AGAINST trying other things as opposed to completely shooting them down, which is what I have experienced. Fine to promote and recommend what you think works, but to make horse owners feel bad for wanting to try something else? That's what gets my back up, and I have encountered a LOT of that.


----------



## cptrayes (27 October 2012)

MontyandZoom said:



			As a vet you should always be able to defend your chosen treatment in terms of evidence based medicine. The benefits of a particular treatment having been shown in a peer-reviewed, published study with a significant enough sample size.
		
Click to expand...

What you want for barefoot does not exist for shoeing and yet you are still being taught it. You cannot defend remedial shoeing in terms of evidence based medicine. There are NO scientifically valid peer reviewed published research papers for any kind of shoeing, remedial or otherwise. (please, please prove I am wrong on this!)

The last time I had this discussion with a vet she quoted one study after another. And one study after another was of tiny numbers, around ten, with NO CONTROL GROUP. Not scientifically valid in any way.

My favourite one does have significant numbers. It starts with 82 horses with navicular spectrum front foot lameness. They shoot 27 of them because they are "too difficult to help". Of the remainder of 55, an unspecified number are described as not lame enough for it to be noticeable. They bar shoe ALL of them. Around 50% are "improved", though how you judge improvement in a horse that was not lame is beyond me. No timescale was given for any follow up checks to see if the improvement was sustained. And people are seriously suggesting on this forum from time to time that this study indicates a 50% recovery rate.

It would be hilarious if it was not so serious for horse welfare.

Can I suggest that you lobby Leahurst to publish the massively successful treatment that has been going on at Rockley Farm under the watchful eye of one of their professors? It's on the website if you want to read full details and I know for a fact that Nic Barker would be absolutely delighted to receive a visit from a group of year 4 vet students so that she can show them what she does.

She's not alone, there are further large numbers of us that have done one or two rehabs, and other trimmers that have done more than that. I'm on my second. The first was booked in to be put to sleep two days after I took him on. That appointment was cancelled. He now hunts and wins at his national breed show. I'm on my second. He won't stay sound in shoes, remedial or otherwise. He's sound now and changing how he moves every day. I'm only two weeks in but I'd say that the chances of him hunting with me around New Year are extremely high. 

We'd all love the research, can you point us in the direction of some funding, because there's no money in a "don't medicate or shoe" for anyone to be incentivised to fund it?  I do the lottery to try to win enough money to do it. No luck so far 



ps it may interest you to know that the one peer reviewed and published research into barefoot versus shoes showed a significant reduction in size of foot at the coronet band and an adverse change in hoof pastern axis after ONE shoeing cycle. We need more of this stuff, the numbers weren't huge and it was only one breed of horse, but at least there was a decent 100% control group.


----------



## MontyandZoom (27 October 2012)

dressagelove said:



			I think there is a certain amount of this going on...

Also, the point you make is fine, but why are vets so AGAINST trying other things as opposed to completely shooting them down, which is what I have experienced. Fine to promote and recommend what you think works, but to make horse owners feel bad for wanting to try something else? That's what gets my back up, and I have encountered a LOT of that.
		
Click to expand...

I actually totally agree with you in terms of things getting shot down. I have experienced that as a horse owner before.

I went to an interesting talk the other day at school regarding litigation though. I think the threat of being sued is MASSIVE as an equine vet so vets tend to be too afraid to say anything that they don't think is easily defensible if you were to be hauled in front of the RCVS. 

Even on here there is alot of chat of negligence and complaints etc. (Not that I am saying people shouldn't make complaints......that's what the system is there for).

I looked into doing barefoot as my undergraduate project but it is just too big a topic and there didn't seem to be enough evidence either way for me to write a solid project.


----------



## MontyandZoom (27 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			What you want for barefoot does not exist for shoeing and yet you are still being taught it. You cannot defend remedial shoeing in terms of evidence baced medicine. There are NO scientifically valid peer reviewed published research papers for any kind of shoeing, remedial or otherwise. (please, please prove I am wrong on this!)

The last time I had this discussion with a vet she quoted one study after another. And one study after another was of tiny numbers, around ten, with NO CONTROL GROUP. Not scientifically valid in any way.
		
Click to expand...

You may be completely right! In terms of teaching, we get hardly any. In fact, in four years I have had ONE lecture by the farriery team which was the other night (hence why it got me thinking). 

I am making some fairly huge assumptions in terms of the number of vets advising wedges and bar shoes. I was thinking that there surely must be evidence to show the benefit. If it is the case that there really is very little evidence to advocate these techniques then there is a major problem that needs to be addressed.

Incidently, i am really not biased either way, just very interested as to how this situation could have occurred when we are talking about such a huge area of veterinary medicine.


----------



## lachlanandmarcus (27 October 2012)

A basic grounding in the structures and biomechanics of the horses hoof/legs and movement now that we have the advantage of scans to see what actually happens inside gives all the proof of the potential benefits of barefoot and the potential harm of shoeing, unless outweighed by other factors (eg a horse requiring shoes for massive amounts of  roadwork). You dont need a peer reviewed study to understand the implications of shoeing removing the ability of the hoof to function to absorb shocks and circulate blood around the hoof and retain the navicular in its correct position and angle - it just 'is' the case!

Particularly in the area of 'navicular 'disease'': -  understanding of how to avoid it and how to treat it have been completely turned on their heads. 

Shoeing is easier for owners as they dont have to pay so much attention to diet, bother with boots or conditioning, but I think it is harder to say these days that shoeing is 'good' for the horse. It is better for the horse if the owner doesnt have the time/interest to devote to hoof health. 

Given the proportion of horses who are now barefoot I would think vet colleges who didnt cover this area of horse health in great depth would be rapidly left behind.


----------



## TarrSteps (27 October 2012)

There is also, as always with all research, the question of who would pay. Academic institutions are far, far less likely to fund 'art for art's sake' in this day and age and outside funding is tricky to get. Unfortunately much of our current research re equine products and practices is funded by private industry. This does not negate the usefulness of a well designed, impartial study but it does tend to mean investigations that have no 'benefit' will be harder to find funding for, especially the amount that would be needed to do such a study thoroughly. 

Which is not to say it's not a valid question, just to point out that it may not just be a case of people being wilfully resistant.


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (27 October 2012)

I had a conversation with another farrier the other day, not my own. The woman who owns the horse couldn't be there so I said I'd hold her horse. I told him about getting mine out of shoes as they needed it even if it was only for a break. Told him my farrier had been at me for ages to do so. He said, well any farrier that doesn't recommend a break from shoes at least once a year isn't doing the best for the horses. He said it doesn't matter how much things advance in farriery or medicine, most problems wouldn't need fixing if people gave the feet a chance to right themselves without shoes. 

That's not science and it's not veterinary but the words of a man who's been shoeing horses for a long time. 

Terri


----------



## tallyho! (27 October 2012)

A study will be hard to make come about. Farriers (and shoe manufacturers) have so much to LOSE once people realise barefoot is relatively easy, you'd think they will HAVE to do a study with a CONTROL group of barefoot horses. 

But why would they do that? It will be commercial suicide. Most farriers KNOW horses need time out of shoes.

Barefooters have no money with which to do a study and anyway, why bother as the evidence speaks for itself. As a barefooter myself, I don't really care. If I need to shoe I will (call a decent farrier). If I don't, I won't.

It isn't complicated (hooves aren't that complicated). I sometimes feel that vets can complicate things further than they need to be.


----------



## MontyandZoom (27 October 2012)

I agree that a foot is designed to work without shoes on and can agree with the theory that putting shoes on will impair the natural action of the hoof structure.

I also agree that to a certain extent convenience comes into the picture. However, vets are not generally asked to advise about foot management of normal horses. The majority of cases are horses who have been presented with lameness issues and require treatment (perhaps damage caused by shoeing in the first place.........) 

This is where studies really are needed to advise as to what 'gold standard' of treatment would be.


----------



## ester (27 October 2012)

M&Z.. 4 years now .. jeez time flies! 

fwiw the science geek in me would love there to be more peer reviewed evidence for barefoot... unfortunately like many things it isn't something that would easily attract research funding . As CP also says if you get searching on WOK or others for recent shoeing papers they usually aren't great either. 

So although I would have loved to have more proper evidence before my lads shoes came off and I made him my own personal case study of 1  it wasn't there. 

My observations of my case study were (diagnosis DJD in coffin joint and reverse pedal bone rotation - I suspect had some collateral ligament damage too) bar shoes = still lame, steroid+ HA injections = still lame, vet (and me) not keen on wedges in the long term, barefoot (march)- now sound back in medium work. That will have to do me for the time being. 

fwiw my vet was not against me taking shoes off, although it was mine not his suggestion. He has sent horses to rockley and had clients home barefoot for navicular. He had no evidence to suggest it might work for Frank's diagnosis so I said I'd let him know how I got on 

eta further to your ^^ post.. problems def not helped by shoeing previously


----------



## Littlelegs (27 October 2012)

It's also worth bearing in mind that in other areas proper research has often only come long after established practice of what does or doesn't work. If you take even a condition like colic, a hundred years ago a lot of the basic rules were the same as today. Research has given us more options for treatment in recent years, but basic principles like not allowing vigorous rolling etc remain the same. Why? Because it was anecdotal, same as the principles we still use today to avoid colic in the first place. Basically a lot of veterinary practice has come about through trial & error, with research done much later. And as far as barefoot rehab goes, there's no financial gain to be made by anyone, so no economic grounds to research it. Doing comprehensive studies into for example ligament damage, is financially a sensible move, because it has an impact on racehorses, which are the money spinners of the equine world, right down to how big a bill the one horse owner receives for treatment for their leisure horse. And the same can be said for a lot of conditions & treatment. Barefoot research isn't going to earn anyone anything, so there's no financial sense in the veterinary industry funding comprehensive research.


----------



## tallyho! (27 October 2012)

MontyandZoom said:



			I agree that a foot is designed to work without shoes on and can agree with the theory that putting shoes on will impair the natural action of the hoof structure.

I also agree that to a certain extent convenience comes into the picture. However, vets are not generally asked to advise about foot management of normal horses. The majority of cases are horses who have been presented with lameness issues and require treatment (perhaps damage caused by shoeing in the first place.........) 

This is where studies really are needed to advise as to what 'gold standard' of treatment would be.
		
Click to expand...

Then, surely, as a vet it is up to you (and your profession) to get clued up about foot lameness from all angles. OR get a study going. You said yourself it is hard to do. There is no interest for anyone else to do it.

If all you get is a session with a farrier, I am not confident about calling you out for a foot issue. I'd rather call my trimmer/farrier.


----------



## MontyandZoom (27 October 2012)

ester said:



			M&Z.. 4 years now .. jeez time flies! 


fwiw my vet was not against me taking shoes off, although it was mine not his suggestion. He has sent horses to rockley and had clients home barefoot for navicular. He had no evidence to suggest it might work for Frank's diagnosis so I said I'd let him know how I got on 

Click to expand...

I know.......I might actually have to be a vet fairly soon!!!! 

It is good that your vet had a good attitude to trying without the shoes. I'm hoping I will be open to ideas when I qualify, I reckon it helps that I'm a wrinkly (I'll be 30 when I graduate!).

I think this totally emphasises the importance of vets submitting case reports to the various publications. At least then, even in the absence of a control group, there would be enough anecdotal evidence compiled to make it a more defensible course of action. Maybe vets would then be a bit more open to it.


----------



## ester (27 October 2012)

I was fully prepared for it not to work but as the alternative was retirement and he would be having his shoes off then anyway


----------



## tallyho! (27 October 2012)

MontyandZoom said:



			I'm a wrinkly (I'll be 30 when I graduate!).
		
Click to expand...

 how very dare you!!!!


----------



## MontyandZoom (27 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Then, surely, as a vet it is up to you (and your profession) to get clued up about foot lameness from all angles. OR get a study going. You said yourself it is hard to do. There is no interest for anyone else to do it.

If all you get is a session with a farrier, I am not confident about calling you out for a foot issue. I'd rather call my trimmer/farrier.
		
Click to expand...

You seem a bit annoyed  We get one lecture on SHOEING......because sboeing is not my job. We get lots of lectures on foot lameness, anatomy, physiology etc because that is what I will be paid to know about. 

I would love to do a study.......but I am busy trying to pass vet school first


----------



## Goldenstar (27 October 2012)

MontyandZoom said:



			I'm a 4th year at vet school and have been reading with interest the NUMEROUS posts about shoeing vs barefoot trimming.

I got to thinking about why this method of treatment has not filtered into the mainstream in terms of vets and teaching. There are lots of posts on here which talk about vets 'not knowing any better' than remedial shoeing, but this strikes me as unfair.

As a vet you should always be able to defend your chosen treatment in terms of evidence based medicine. The benefits of a particular treatment having been shown in a peer-reviewed, published study with a significant enough sample size. 

If barefoot trimming really is so much better than shoeing, surely people should be lobbying for studies to be done to prove it. (they may be some already.....I'm not sure). Otherwise how can vets legally and ethically recommend it on purely anecdotal evidence? I am not at all dismissive of it but would like to know what it going on in terms of moving forward in barefoot trimming and veterinary medicine.
		
Click to expand...

Why should I want studies I am happy with what I am doing with my horses.
I am not interested in any vet seeking to micromanage my horses I am quite happy to that my self.
Vets need IMO a little more curiousity and a little less ego in many cases.
My own vet was anti the whole BF thing and told me so in no uncertain term that sport horses can't work without shoes ( in alll fairness this was my view for many years )
We did have a couple of little runs in over it but its either assist me and my choices or off I go with the around 10 k a year I spent to someone who will, now she's coming round because you can't argue with sound horses moving as well if not better than they did with shoes .
If one of the shod ones had say navicular symptons there's is no way I would consent to remedial shoeing and navilox and the like as a way forward 
I am lucky in that I can afford not to insure my horses my choices are my own 
We shoe horses with not a lot of research And not even the most pro shoeing vet can argue that shoeing does not compromise hoof health because it does as owner we must takes responsiblity to keeping horses in shoes all year leads to many many problems the old horsemen knew this we need to relearn that lesson


----------



## criso (27 October 2012)

MontyandZoom said:



			. 

I am making some fairly huge assumptions in terms of the number of vets advising wedges and bar shoes. I was thinking that there surely must be evidence to show the benefit. If it is the case that there really is very little evidence to advocate these techniques then there is a major problem that needs to be addressed.
		
Click to expand...

Here's one of the studies, assuming as a vet student you can download the whole thing which someone sent me as a pdf.

The stats on this are pretty low in terms of percentage of horses coming back into full work after a traditional approach, as low as 10% for collateral ligament damage to just over 20% for ddft.  I pulled these out as they were what my horse had.  (He's an ex rockley horse) but I wouldn't take figures like this as a resounding endorsement of an approach.


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...081.x/abstract  (the site appears to be offline temporarily but I'm sure will be up again soon)

What strikes me in all these discussions is you can't have real evidence for one without the other.
Any study of barefoot horses has to have a shod control group with similar issues and the same of any study of shod horses.


----------



## tallyho! (27 October 2012)

Sorry. I'm only annoyed because vets say they "need" these studies but they can't magically appear. Someone needs to start one but as I said in my previous post, it seems there is no interest on either the farriers part nor the trimmers.

Who do you propose shells out on this study?


----------



## ester (27 October 2012)

you also need several studies with everyone finding the same conclusions for anything to be classed as valid really. I certainly thinks shoes off is some time off that.


----------



## Littlelegs (27 October 2012)

I will also add my own experience of vets & barefoot. My farrier is the recommended remedial farrier by my vets, & the farrier is a big advocate of removing shoes. My horse has never had any problems, so I'm not sure how pro barefoot my vet is, but I do know he agrees with his farrier on all the cases I've heard of. My mares feet are naturally big, prone to spreading & closer to flat than the perfect concave. They have to be trimmed regularly to avoid spreading & flares. So not amazingly pretty trimmed in their natural wide shape, but they more than serve their purpose & are very healthy. A new employee came from my vets for last jabs & proceeded to lecture me uninvited on my mares feet. Apparently they needed a good farrier to trim them back into a smaller, narrower, more attractive shape, & put on shoes to stop future spreading. And her current hooves are causing problems, which was news to us. In short I needed a good farrier instead of whichever cowboy does them now. All of which he was able to say from seeing her in her stable, without being asked for his opinion. I let him rabbit on, then told him the so called cowboy was the remedial farrier used by his practice, & his boss would be able to tell him that not only are he & farrier more than happy with her feet, but that she's only ever been unsound in her life a handful of times, all following injury from a specific external cause. At this point he remembered he had to hurry off to his next appointment. His ignorance wasn't anything but laughable for me, but could have had a very different impact if he worked for a vet with different views & he was called to an unsound horse.


----------



## thatsmygirl (27 October 2012)

I don't need any more proff, my lad was lame in shoes and lame when trimmed by farrier or trimmer. After his reverse pedal bone rotation had been found on x rays I looked at options ( he was shod on box rest and crippled) which was the norm for this horse. I had excepted the fact I probable would never ride him again so had to get him sound to keep as a pet or pts. The vets talked through my shoeing option of £150 half gel shoe things which I couldn't afford every 6 weeks so we spoke about barefoot as a option. My vet said she was open minded about it as she had seen it work before so if I wanted to take that route she would support me. 
It's been 3 months now, he's sound as sound and in fact never had a days lameness since the shoes come off and back in work with boots/pads which I never thought I would see again. 
Since this iv started slowly taking all my horses shoes off but it's not the easy option by far and as somebody else has said, you need to be more carefull with diet and managment as you can't get away with the same as you would with shod horses.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (27 October 2012)

there's a huge problem with the lack of evidence based vet medicine in this country. clinicians mostly aren't interested-and my first opinion practice is a university one. too many papers written retrospectively, insufficient history taken and too much hurry to invasively treat within the 12 month insurance time frame. There's little good evidence (ie with controls, which is difficult clinically) to suggest that some of the more novel treatments (stem cell, iRAP) actually work in horses and too much reactive treatment (mostly insurance and owner driven). Some therapies are bought in with much less evidence than the anecdotal evidence with see with barefoot but yes, the risk of a malpractice suit is huge. 

part of the problem with barefoot is the perceived lack of training in trimmers, the lack of regulation and the fact that many vets don't know enough about the hoof and therefore cowtow to farriers. I wouldn't let the university practice remedial farrier within 10 foot of one of my horses even before I took mine barefoot. Luckily we have a local trimmer who's been around for quite a while that local vets and farriers (rather grudgingly) think does a really good job.


----------



## MontyandZoom (27 October 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Why should I want studies I am happy with what I am doing with my horses.
I am not interested in any vet seeking to micromanage my horses I am quite happy to that my self.
Vets need IMO a little more curiousity and a little less ego in many cases.
		
Click to expand...

This post makes me extremely sad for the rest of my career. You have completely missed the point  I HATE this 'them and us' attitude. This is precisely what prevents the profession from moving forwards. 

No one is trying to 'micromanage' your horses. We are paid to give our opinion, and that's what we do.

I can also guaruntee that I know alot more vets than you do. Some of them are ********s, some of them are lovely. Same as any other profession.

Tallyho - I totally agree. It is a very difficult situation. Retrospective studies are not expensive if we can encourage every vet to keep good case records. Now I just need some willing PhD student...........


----------



## amandap (27 October 2012)

I have had to return to reply here. 


MontyandZoom said:



			This is where studies really are needed to advise as to what 'gold standard' of treatment would be.
		
Click to expand...

Emphasis on prevention as a first line... 

ps. I do agree we need studies re treatment options. Also I find it so sad that fear of litigation is so prevalent among professionals these days. Openness with the client along with frank discussion has to be a key component of decision making imo.


----------



## Oberon (27 October 2012)

MontyandZoom said:



			If barefoot trimming really is so much better than shoeing.
		
Click to expand...

No no no .

Trimming is a very small part of creating a healthy hoof.

Tools are NOT the answer.

You need to take the sick hoof, feed it properly and allow movement within the horse's comfort in order to grow a healthy and strong hoof.

This takes the owner's dedication and time (at least six months).

Not many insurance companies, vets or owners are going to want to accept a six month 'wait and see' approach with barefoot.

Not many vets are going to recommend barefoot rehab as a treatment option when the best we have to justify it all is some dubious anecdotal evidence from a bunch of militant hippies on the internet......

The thing with barefoot rehab is that it can go wrong if the basics of diet and movement are not in place. You are placing a lot of trust in the owner and if they mess up somehow - they will turn around and blame you, the vet .

The only way forward (for now) is for vets to look a bit deeper into the subject and spend some time with some of the more sensible barefoot hippies  and see for yourself what is what.

I run a library on The Phoenix forum for members to access my personal stock pile of books and DVDs on hooves. You are welcome to join and add yourself to the list


----------



## Goldenstar (27 October 2012)

MontyandZoom said:



			This post makes me extremely sad for the rest of my career. You have completely missed the point  I HATE this 'them and us' attitude. This is precisely what prevents the profession from moving forwards. 

No one is trying to 'micromanage' your horses. We are paid to give our opinion, and that's what we do.

I can also guaruntee that I know alot more vets than you do. Some of them are ********s, some of them are lovely. Same as any other profession.

Tallyho - I totally agree. It is a very difficult situation. Retrospective studies are not expensive if we can encourage every vet to keep good case records. Now I just need some willing PhD student...........

Click to expand...

Monty and Zoom I am sorry on second reading that sounds very strong it was not my intention to be rude.
The force of my feeling is I think based on one incident vet looking at horse on yard another horse BF in stable behind stall chain so you can see it feet horse whose conformation is slightly turned in has small flares on the insides of his front feet ( these have over time almost completly resolved themselves as have the splints that I spent £££££ having shock waved , the splints almost completly disappeared after I removed the shoes.)
The vet unbidden and unasked proceeds to give me a dressing down about the flares about how they will be compressing the structures in his feet I was taken aback and tried to understand what was being said however the tone was unpleasant so I just said if I wanted an opinion I would ask and could we just deal with want we where doing I was pretty short.
If all vets are getting as little training as you on the shoeing sides of things I think I can safely discount vets opinions even more than I thought.
There a huge issues with the standard of farriers no one  is addressing this it is the elephant in the room if it easy to get assess to great farriery then many going down the BF route would never have started that's what pushed me into it.
I now see there is another way to manage some horses in work even if a horse say eventing goes into shoes four months a year it better and healthier than being shod year round.


----------



## MontyandZoom (27 October 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Monty and Zoom I am sorry on second reading that sounds very strong it was not my intention to be rude.
The force of my feeling is I think based on one incident vet looking at horse on yard another horse BF in stable behind stall chain so you can see it feet horse whose conformation is slightly turned in has small flares on the insides of his front feet ( these have over time almost completly resolved themselves as have the splints that I spent £££££ having shock waved , the splints almost completly disappeared after I removed the shoes.)
The vet unbidden and unasked proceeds to give me a dressing down about the flares about how they will be compressing the structures in his feet I was taken aback and tried to understand what was being said however the tone was unpleasant so I just said if I wanted an opinion I would ask and could we just deal with want we where doing I was pretty short.
If all vets are getting as little training as you on the shoeing sides of things I think I can safely discount vets opinions even more than I thought.
There a huge issues with the standard of farriers no one  is addressing this it is the elephant in the room if it easy to get assess to great farriery then many going down the BF route would never have started that's what pushed me into it.
I now see there is another way to manage some horses in work even if a horse say eventing goes into shoes four months a year it better and healthier than being shod year round.
		
Click to expand...

I can totally understand your point of view and experiences with vets like yours are disappointingly common. From my point of view, that's why I started the thread in the first place.

I want to be a really good vet and to me that means addressing these problems and making sure that everyone is singing from the same hymnsheet  

I am a few years off being in a position to really do anything about it but the recent activity on here has definitely made me think. I will do my part to try and be an 'educated' vet but I think we all need to have more of an open mind when it comes to understanding the challenges from all perspectives - farriers, vets, owners so we can all acheive our ultimate goal - improving welfare for the horses in this country. 

Feeling quite motivated now for the future. I have fourth year exams coming up (sitting in my pjs reading about neurology atm  ) but once I'm done with that, if there are any barefoot trimmers/farriers/vets out there who would be willing for me to come and have a chat about it I'd be very interested.


----------



## Oberon (27 October 2012)

MontyandZoom said:



			This post makes me extremely sad for the rest of my career. You have completely missed the point  I HATE this 'them and us' attitude. This is precisely what prevents the profession from moving forwards.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly.

It's a common theme among barefooters where they dread calling the vet and become very anxious about having a confrontation over the hooves.

Some vets will see any lameness as being caused by the lack of shoes. This is sometimes the case, but not EVERY time.

It's especially difficult for owners who have had to rehab their horse alone, secretly, and with no support from a vet (and sometimes farrier) and are happy and established with the hooves.......then something else goes wrong and they are frightened to call the vet because of the, "you must put remedial shoes on" reply. 
When the owner has already been through remedial shoes and finally got healthy hooves growing - that's the last thing they want to hear.

There have also been occasions when barefoot endurance riders have been made to feel uncomfortable by the vet at rides, suggesting their horse will be ruined by the end of the ride . 
Of all horses - barefoot endurance horses have the hooves you really want to hold in your hand and gaze upon for a while .


----------



## Flame_ (27 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			You need to take the sick hoof, feed it properly and allow movement within the horse's comfort in order to grow a healthy and strong hoof.

This takes the owner's dedication and time (at least six months).

Not many insurance companies, vets or owners are going to want to accept a six month 'wait and see' approach with barefoot.

Not many vets are going to recommend barefoot rehab as a treatment option when the best we have to justify it all is some dubious anecdotal evidence from a bunch of militant hippies on the internet......

The thing with barefoot rehab is that it can go wrong if the basics of diet and movement are not in place. You are placing a lot of trust in the owner and if they mess up somehow - they will turn around and blame you, the vet .
		
Click to expand...

This would all be very understandable if there were actually any evidence that remedial shoeing and the other treatments currently used were in fact effective. I'm at a point now where I'd rather they recommended a bullet in the first place than complicated shoes. It doesn't make sense to me that barefoot isn't taken seriously due to a lack of scientific proof of success but remedial farriery is. How is this one explained? 

ETA Even with remedial farriery it is a waiting and seeing game and they tell you the horse will eventually deteriorate anyway.


----------



## Goldenstar (27 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			This takes the owner's dedication and time (at least six months).

Not many insurance companies, vets or owners are going to want to accept a six month 'wait and see' approach with barefoot.


 As an owner if you will do six months box rest followed by rehab for say a suspensory injury and have the horse off work for a year why not the same for the feet ?
I bought a TB , typical foot troubles for a horse of his type and lifestyle he had had I thought it through, if it was further up his leg the issue was showing I would have not given taking  six months or a year a second thought so I gave his feet the same consideration six months on I am astounded by his progress and saddened for some of  my past horses who I did not give the same chance.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## TarrSteps (27 October 2012)

What does interest me is that back in the day  the standard regime for treating many ills was do whatever we could, then shoes off and into the biggest, roughest area possible, pat horse on head, check back in 6 months. If sound, start walking.  If not sound, back in field, check again in 6 months.  It was not that unusual for horses to miss a year or more.  And even without an injury it was common for horses to have shoes off and out/reduced work for part of the year anyway.

Even some of the treatments that were a bit dodgy but often involved extended rest.  I've had old horsemen tell me the best thing about firing is it looks awful so people give the poor animal the time off because they don't want to be seen on it before it's healed anyway!

I am not for or against shoeing.  Courses for horses.  But it does seem to be getting more and more complicated but not necessarily more and more successful.  I've seen at least three horses treated aggressively for hoof related lameness this year that have ended up having the better part of 6 months or more off.  I do wonder sometimes what might have happened if they'd just had the shoes off and out.  (Much harder to do now and here, I realise.). I've had one out post injury and rehab shoeing that wasn't working and I'd say it's taken nearly a year for him to look completely comfortable.  He's been technically sound for months but only recently has his posture and general outlook started to improve to the point where I would think we're getting back to something like optimum, given wear and tear etc.

Things take time.  Whenever I've been injured it's taken much longer to return to full function than to "heal" in a medical sense. And even that is relative as I have bits that will never be exactly as they were.  Why do we expect different from our animals?


----------



## Oberon (27 October 2012)

Flame_ said:



			This would all be very understandable if there were actually any evidence that remedial shoeing and the other treatments currently used were in fact effective. I'm at a point now where I'd rather they recommended a bullet in the first place than complicated shoes. It doesn't make sense to me that barefoot isn't taken seriously due to a lack of scientific proof of success but remedial farriery is. How is this one explained? 

ETA Even with remedial farriery it is a waiting and seeing game and they tell you the horse will eventually deteriorate anyway.
		
Click to expand...

The idea of sculpting and manipulating the hoof and limb loading via shoes is well recognised with centuries of practice. It's the accepted way to do things. You often see instant 'results' with remedial shoes in terms of comfort and the appearance of loading better.

When I first got into barefoot in 2004 there were horses that, "just couldn't go barefoot". Diet was all about 'magic barefoot powder' (linseed, BY and seaweed).

Around 2007, the impact of mineral balancing on the hoof emerged and came over to the UK. Then 'magic barefoot powder' was out and copper and zinc was in. This was a key piece to some of those horses that were difficult before.

But it's always a 'sometimes not always' approach with barefoot as each horse is an individual, and what works for one may not work for another.

There is still a lot we don't really understand about what makes hooves tick (nerve function, proteins, hormones etc) and when something new comes to light - we change our recommendations.

So it looks like barefooters are always changing their story on what works - it makes us look wafty and like we're constantly making s*** up .

Remedial shoes, as a comparison, are an established answer that don't change with the wind.....

It's easier to place your faith in remedial shoes .


----------



## Goldenstar (27 October 2012)

Tarrsteps when I was a child ,rough hill ,companion pony and a lump of rock salt was the best chance of a cure for many things from sore heels to stifle issues I think perhaps we have got to clever and have too much reliance on jabbing or operating on this that and the other .
Youngstock was kept thin by modern standards in fact horses generally were thin by modern standards .
I don't think all in the past was best but I think we have lost the way a bit in some areas.


----------



## amandap (27 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			The idea of sculpting and manipulating the hoof and limb loading via shoes is well recognised with centuries of practice. It's the accepted way to do things. You often see instant 'results' with remedial shoes in terms of comfort and the appearance of loading better.

When I first got into barefoot in 2004 there were horses that, "just couldn't go barefoot". Diet was all about 'magic barefoot powder' (linseed, BY and seaweed).

Around 2007, the impact of mineral balancing on the hoof emerged and came over to the UK. Then 'magic barefoot powder' was out and copper and zinc was in. This was a key piece to some of those horses that were difficult before.

But it's always a 'sometimes not always' approach with barefoot as each horse is an individual, and what works for one may not work for another.

There is still a lot we don't really understand about what makes hooves tick (nerve function, proteins, hormones etc) and when something new comes to light - we change our recommendations.

So it looks like barefooters are always changing their story on what works - it makes us look wafty and like we're constantly making s*** up .

Remedial shoes, as a comparison, are an established answer that don't change with the wind.....

It's easier to place your faith in remedial shoes .
		
Click to expand...

This along with this ---


MontyandZoom said:



			It is a very difficult situation. Retrospective studies are not expensive if *we can encourage every vet to keep good case records*. Now I just need some willing PhD student...........

Click to expand...

Just imagine how far and fast we could improve our knowledge and practice with more thinking outside the box and sharing info/experiences.


----------



## Oberon (27 October 2012)

reborn amandap said:



			This along with this ---


Just imagine how far and fast we could improve our knowledge and practice with more thinking outside the box and sharing info/experiences.
		
Click to expand...

You couldn't resist us for long


----------



## TarrSteps (27 October 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Tarrsteps when I was a child ,rough hill ,companion pony and a lump of rock salt was the best chance of a cure for many things from sore heels to stifle issues I think perhaps we have got to clever and have too much reliance on jabbing or operating on this that and the other .
Youngstock was kept thin by modern standards in fact horses generally were thin by modern standards .
I don't think all in the past was best but I think we have lost the way a bit in some areas.
		
Click to expand...

Oh, I have no illusions about the old days! . Remember tube worming?!?  Or horses with giant white wither scars?? 

I just flinch a bit now when I hear people saying that this or that intervention is the "only chance".  It's clearly not, as proved by the fact that horses did come back from even quite serious conditions in the past.  And when it cost very little to turn horses away there were certainly "miracle" stories of horses given a "last summer" turning it around.  

Shoeing does follow fashion though, too.  Remember giant trailers?  I recently saw some horses kept in what we in the UK/North America would consider "old style" ways, some with big trailers behind.  It made me laugh as have not seen that for years.  Ditto wedges for hock spavins - they work by a well understood mechanism of transferring force and it used to be you just put them on and hoped you got a few more years out of the horse.  No one thought they were "curing" anything.  Maybe that's part of the change?  The trend towards, quick decisive answers?


----------



## amandap (27 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			You couldn't resist us for long 

Click to expand...

 It was no mention of prevention that got me.


----------



## Oberon (27 October 2012)

reborn amandap said:



 It was no mention of prevention that got me. 

Click to expand...


----------



## Goldenstar (27 October 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			Oh, I have no illusions about the old days! . Remember tube worming?!?  Or horses with giant white wither scars?? 

I just flinch a bit now when I hear people saying that this or that intervention is the "only chance".  It's clearly not, as proved by the fact that horses did come back from even quite serious conditions in the past.  And when it cost very little to turn horses away there were certainly "miracle" stories of horses given a "last summer" turning it around.  

Shoeing does follow fashion though, too.  Remember giant trailers?  I recently saw some horses kept in what we in the UK/North America would consider "old style" ways, some with big trailers behind.  It made me laugh as have not seen that for years.  Ditto wedges for hock spavins - they work by a well understood mechanism of transferring force and it used to be you just put them on and hoped you got a few more years out of the horse.  No one thought they were "curing" anything.  Maybe that's part of the change?  The trend towards, quick decisive answers?
		
Click to expand...



Remember 90% of conditions required a kaolin poultice or a bran mash or both.
                 The regular use of lead lotion ,toxic to horse and groom
                  And the use of whale oil !!! ( hangs head in shame)


----------



## Honey Pony (27 October 2012)

This thread is very interesting to me as i am having a problem with my vet who appears to be totally anti barefoot. The first thing he told me was that my pony doesn't need magnesium as she will get enough from her feed. I had to point out that as a fat pony she doesn't get much in the way of feed!

 He has now told me that the only way of solving the reverse rotation and broken angles of her front feet is to shoe as it was being barefoot that caused this. The fact that she had had shoes on for 8 weeks due to him insisting that i keep them on so that he could x ray her and then forgot to book her in, which was why her toes where too long escaped his notice. 

Pony has now got shoes back off angles back to normal.

Still lame but i knew it was unlikely to be her feet in the first case.

So £600.00 later no further forward


----------



## ozpoz (27 October 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Remember 90% of conditions required a kaolin poultice or a bran mash or both.
                 The regular use of lead lotion ,toxic to horse and groom
                  And the use of whale oil !!! ( hangs head in shame)
		
Click to expand...

I don't remember using whale oil! What was it for?

I think that most research is funded. And there isn't much 'product' to sell in barefoot, or rest for that matter.


----------



## TarrSteps (27 October 2012)

Goldenstar, I fear we may be very, very old!


----------



## tallyho! (27 October 2012)

There is no money in it. It would be a shameful waste. A study will laugh in the face of farriers that have "gone" barefoot and all the years sitting in the desert studying hooves, dissecting hooves, taking expensive scans with their own money to further their OWN knowledge about hooves. Now, why can't others be content with building on this?

You only have google or borrow Obe's books to learn a little bit. Most of it is practical physics and physiology. Does the fact that thousands and thousands of horses roam untamed unshod surviving anything the wild throws at them bear nothing on our thoughts? 

This is why I personally think a study will only prove that shoes are not necessary in many cases and should be used as needed.

Anyway, so many things need sorting in this country. Over feeding, over rugging, and under working! That, IMO, is the biggest problem to hooves (and everything else!), not whether they have steel bits nailed to them or they have a manicure every few months.


----------



## Palindrome (27 October 2012)

Unfortunately not peer reviewed research but if you can get ahold of it watch the DVDs Under the Horse from Pete Ramey, lots of clear explanations about barefoot trimming and management and how to help the horse heal steaming from rehabilitating lots of lame horses.
He has some online articles but not as good as the DVDs:
http://www.hoofrehab.com/hoof%20articles%20by%20Pete%20Ramey.htm


----------



## Nickles1973 (27 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			Exactly.

It's a common theme among barefooters where they dread calling the vet and become very anxious about having a confrontation over the hooves.

Some vets will see any lameness as being caused by the lack of shoes. This is sometimes the case, but not EVERY time.

This very thing applied to me this week. My horse has been undergoing exams and treatments for PSD and associated lameness issues. So far he has had fetlock's and hocks medicated and although now no longer lame was still very sore through his S/I. 
Aside from this I have been working hard to transition him to barefoot as his hooves were very shoe sick with the suppport of an excellent farrier. My vet was aware that I had removed his prescibed bar shoes fronts and rolled toe hinds but had yet to acknowledge this fact verbally.
Part of the plan to get my horse better had always been to inject his S/I area if it became necessary so when he still seemed stiff I called my vet.
She came on Tuesday and before even examining him or trotting him up she was talking about putting hoof testers on  
Funnily enough though after seeing him move and having to admit how sound he looked (just very tight over his back) she agreed that his S/I was to blame and carried out the injections and shockwave.
Hoof testers were not mentioned again 

Click to expand...


----------



## TigerTail (27 October 2012)

Honey Pony said:



			The first thing he told me was that my pony doesn't need magnesium as she will get enough from her feed.
		
Click to expand...

Haha - had the exact same conversation with my sister (vet) who said that horses aren't cows, therefore they dont need extra magnesium. I explained that due to forage analysis I know my grazing is deficient in magnesium - so by feeding the deficit Im taking the grass back to neutral, rather than feeding extra for what they lose during work.

Said sister is also clueless on BF - advice for large sandcrack was a clip  when helping me worming at the weekend and horse puts it head up she wanted to twitch, i refused so then shes neck twitching and then tried ear twitching before we fell out  No horse handling skills at all grr

She looked at one of mines foot as shes slightly lame which I was convinced was her knee as it was hot and swollen the night she did it, sister saw old abscess exit point on sole and whipped hoof knife out - ARGH!!!! Took that off her too 

Her primary interest is farm though not equine (she cant stand us high maintenance equine owners!) so she isnt going to go and do further research into bf. What you need is a few equine vets to get their heads out of their backsides, go and do the UKNHCP course, research themselves etc etc.


----------



## cptrayes (27 October 2012)

Can I just say how great a vet it sounds as though you are going to be Monteandzoom?

I am sorry that you will operate in an environment of fear of being sued, I know that it is holding back barefoot rehab recommendations. 

I also fear that it is resulting in an absolute explosion in box rest for conditions that would be better kept moving, but that's another thread.


----------



## Goldenstar (27 October 2012)

ozpoz said:



			I don't remember using whale oil! What was it for?

I think that most research is funded. And there isn't much 'product' to sell in barefoot, or rest for that matter.
		
Click to expand...

We mixed it with a little pine oil , then equal parts of cod liver oil , whale oil , and I think neats foot oil ( Not sure on that ) to make a gloppy potion for mud fever , crackled heels etc.
I think it's what was called four oils.


----------



## MontyandZoom (27 October 2012)

Cptrayes - thank you so much for that  I have been stuck revising today so that's cheered me up!

I do agree with so much of what is being said and I really REALLY want to avoid being one of those vets that gives the whole profession a bad name.

I have had some really helpful PMs and I'm going to speak to the equine clinical club at school about maybe getting a guest speaker in. (The club offers evening optional talks for those interested in equine)

Feel quite right on about sorting out these issues and getting things moving in the right direction.


----------



## TigerTail (27 October 2012)

MontyandZoom said:



			Cptrayes - thank you so much for that  I have been stuck revising today so that's cheered me up!

I do agree with so much of what is being said and I really REALLY want to avoid being one of those vets that gives the whole profession a bad name.

I have had some really helpful PMs and I'm going to speak to the equine clinical club at school about maybe getting a guest speaker in. (The club offers evening optional talks for those interested in equine)

Feel quite right on about sorting out these issues and getting things moving in the right direction.
		
Click to expand...

Woohoo please please do!!! The profession isnt moving forwards which is such a shame when your clients are


----------



## spookypony (27 October 2012)

This is a marvellous thread!

The politics and economics of research funding priorities certainly merit their very own funded research...

I've had good and bad experiences with vets. I was first turned towards barefoot as a child, actually, by a _vet_, who was a family friend. This vet (whose name you'll be able to guess from context) is a bit of a controversial figure in the UK, at least (though not so much on the continent). This controversy, itself, might easily be a study in the socio-politics of the hoof care world: there's a lot of stories and blame, and obfuscation of events...people aligning themselves certain ways, just to avoid being tarred with the same brush, whether or not that brush actually _has_ any tar on it at all...

As the rider of a barefoot Endurance horse, I receive criticism on two fronts: riders, _none of whom have had a barefoot performance horse_, and some ride vets. Interestingly, I've _never_ had any issues with the ride farriers (we have those in Scotland)! _They_ tend to say: you'll be fine!

Managing a barefoot horse here is more difficult than where I grew up. We keep them on mud here, and expect them to perform over really stony ground. Common sense should tell us that this isn't trivial, and that we should expect to think carefully about a training regime and about booting when necessary. 

I made a mistake at the beginning of this season, building up training too fast, and the pony's feet wore too quickly and in undesirable ways. The trimmer spotted this immediately, and we took remedial action, with careful trimming and booting. A ride vet later (the horse was already improving) was not interested in any of this, and instead wanted to point out over and over that the horse's hooves were too short (we knew, and were taking action), and that they were probably too short to be shod (fine, not interested! Boots being applied!). He was right in what he pointed out, but what really irritated me was his apparent inability to comprehend that _I already knew all this, and was taking remedial action_. If he were my regular vet, I think I would get a lot of resistance to even conversing about barefoot.

The most positive experiences have been with two younger vets. One is the pony's regular vet, and what impresses me about her is her willingness to acknowledge when she needs to find out more about a situation. There appears to be no ego at play whatsoever, and I think she's set to be a pretty formidable vet.

A thing that saddens me a bit is the knowledge that we always have something to prove: if we're successful, it will be seen as being _despite_ being barefoot, and if we have problems, it will be seen as being _because_ of being barefoot, never mind all the billion other things that could go wrong. It's a bit of pressure, thinking that you can't afford to lame out of a ride, because it might tarnish an image...thankfully, I'm generally too hapless to pay attention to such things until afterwards!


----------



## amycamycamyc (27 October 2012)

MontyandZoom said:



			I do agree with so much of what is being said and I really REALLY want to avoid being one of those vets that gives the whole profession a bad name.
		
Click to expand...

You're going to be my vet right?! 
I actually I think an element of this debate is rooted in the 'old school/new school' thing. My mum is a doctor who is v senior but qualified a million years ago. My sister is in her final year now, not even qualified yet. They sometimes disagree on things and its genuinely sometimes very hard to know which is better educated on a particular topic... My mum has vastly more experience but based on traditional thinking, but my sister knows the new research and latest thinking...and is definitely more open to new ideas.
By the same token, for some things an old experienced vet is better, for others, a younger more 'modern'(if that's the word?) vet would be better.

Luckily for you m&z, you will be a modern but OLD vet  best of both!


----------



## Freddie19 (27 October 2012)

sat outside the stable manager's office at very large show in eastern part of england a few months ago.....watched, I would say many many horses and ponies walk (hobble) past on way to lorries or show rings.....roadway was hard standing, with some small stones and gravel, bordered by grass.  I was amazed at how many (mostly) ponies manouvered their way onto grass to walk, when on lane, some looked quite frankly as if they were laminitic.  have no knowledge of barefoot technology,  but feel, it must be very very strongly watched by vets or farriers who do know about it.  Do not want to put down those people who are very aware of how long it takes to turn a shod equine into a barefoot one, but please, take good advice if you are intending to go down this route.  I still have nightmares about one little pony.


----------



## tallyho! (27 October 2012)

Freddie19 said:



			sat outside the stable manager's office at very large show in eastern part of england a few months ago.....watched, I would say many many horses and ponies walk (hobble) past on way to lorries or show rings.....roadway was hard standing, with some small stones and gravel, bordered by grass.  I was amazed at how many (mostly) ponies manouvered their way onto grass to walk, when on lane, some looked quite frankly as if they were laminitic.  have no knowledge of barefoot technology,  but feel, it must be very very strongly watched by vets or farriers who do know about it.  Do not want to put down those people who are very aware of how long it takes to turn a shod equine into a barefoot one, but please, take good advice if you are intending to go down this route.  I still have nightmares about one little pony.
		
Click to expand...

Lots of ponies are left unshod and so may not be "barefoot". Lots of people hate the term but I think it is needed to differentiate between just taking shoes off (being "unshod") and being "barefoot" which I think has a certain philosophy attached to it about management style. Hope that made sense. To me anyway as when I was growing up, unshod meant taking shoes off and sticking pony back in the field and not doing much with it apart from the odd hack in the fields.

It sounds to me as if these ponies are not "barefoot" but unshod or like you say, just jumped on the 'take the shoes off' bandwagon - barefoot is certainly NOT about that! No horse or pony should be in pain and these probably are because they are not given the care they need to cope on stones. Having said that, I have seen shod ponies do the same at some venues... so foot quality is a clear issue.

I will retract what I said earlier about not needing a study... reading the above post kind of makes me think that people do need to be guided by trustworthy sources if horses and ponies are not to suffer.

These are my thoughts, I know many people here do have perfectly brilliant working "unshod" horses but that is their prerogative and this is mine.


----------



## cptrayes (27 October 2012)

Freddie19 said:



			have no knowledge of barefoot technology,  but feel, it must be very very strongly watched by vets or farriers who do know about it.
		
Click to expand...

But they don't.

Neither vets nor farriers have hardworking barefoot horses covered in their courses.

A farrier will only have experience during his training if the Master he is apprenticed to has them on his books. And most of them don't.

I have no idea why the horses and ponies you saw were hobbling on hardcore. I spent a fair part of this afternoon cantering over it. The ones you saw were not, in my book, barefoot. The term for me means horses and ponies who are doing work without shoes that it would be expected that they would need to wear shoes for.


----------



## Orangehorse (27 October 2012)

MontyandZoom - I put up a question once - following lots of "my horse has navicular" threads.  I said "I don't want a cure for navicular, I want to know how to stop my horse developing navicular in the first place."

Vets come in when there is a problem, want all owners want is to stop that problem happening.  My horse is currently shod, but he had some time out of shoes and working and I am convinced that if he hadn't had that time out he would be lame by now because it improved his foot fall tremendously.  I would watch him walk across the field and think that something wasn't right, but didn't know what it was.  I know now that he was landing toe first instead of heel first.


----------



## TarrSteps (27 October 2012)

Re the sore footed ponies, is there a chance they were without shoes in order to get under height?  

And re horses not wanting to walk on stony/hard ground when there is an option available, unfortunately this is not uncommon in shod horses as well.  Again, I am not saying one is better than the other but if a shod horse was reluctant to walk on a particular surface I don't think too many people would even suspect the shoes. 

Interestingly, as. COMPLETELY PERSONAL AND ANECDOTAL OBSERVATION, I have seen a few situations now where an apparent behavioural change has followed a shoeing change.  Suddenly being unwilling to load is a particular link I've observed.  Of course there is no way of knowing if the problem is linked to the progression of whatever necessitated the corrective shoeing but it's a question I always ask now when a new behaviour seems to have come out of nowhere.  Recently a client's horse refused to stand at his usual place on the concrete slab outside the barn, out of the blue.  It turned out that, unknown to the owner at that point, the horse had jumped out and spent the night in a rich, resting field.  Back in his regular paddock the "disobedience" disappeared. . . 

In another case a horse that turned out to have quite serious hoof pain (blocked out hopping) had been vetted by the treating vet originally and passed with flying colours, even though it was observed to be very reluctant to canter in a school, although less so in a straight line in a field.  This was put down to "laziness" (partly due to breed type) and continued to be so in subsequent investigations until blocks were done.

I find it very hard to have discussions about these sorts of "behavioural" issues with most vets and, I have to say, I've had mostly very good relationships with the many vets I've dealt with over the years and respect them highly.  The problem is most of us only know what we know and being an expert in one sphere does not make you one in another.  I do find some vets are very reluctant to take anything on board that doesn't reflect what they've been taught and experienced. 

 Interestingly, I've often had vets be very sanguine about choices I've made for horses when they were far less so for less experienced clients.  I would not want to be a vet though!  Look how many people on here, for instance, are angry BECAUSE their vet has not told them what to do or been able to provide hard answers.  They can't win!  I look at vets like mechanics - they bring their expertise to a situation, other people bring different strengths.  I'm not sure THEY always feel that way, although I have observed that many, absolved from the expectation of being "right/certain" are suddenly a bit more relaxed about the options.


----------



## Monkers (27 October 2012)

MontyandZoom said:



			I'm a 4th year at vet school and have been reading with interest the NUMEROUS posts about shoeing vs barefoot trimming.

I got to thinking about why this method of treatment has not filtered into the mainstream in terms of vets and teaching. There are lots of posts on here which talk about vets 'not knowing any better' than remedial shoeing, but this strikes me as unfair.

As a vet you should always be able to defend your chosen treatment in terms of evidence based medicine. The benefits of a particular treatment having been shown in a peer-reviewed, published study with a significant enough sample size. 

If barefoot trimming really is so much better than shoeing, surely people should be lobbying for studies to be done to prove it. (they may be some already.....I'm not sure). Otherwise how can vets legally and ethically recommend it on purely anecdotal evidence? I am not at all dismissive of it but would like to know what it going on in terms of moving forward in barefoot trimming and veterinary medicine.
		
Click to expand...

Have you chosen your dissertation subject yet?


----------



## tallyho! (27 October 2012)

Related but as an aside *slightly* who are vets more inclined to help/support? Clients who seem to be leaning too much for support on subject matter or ones who are a bit more willing to self-educate?

If I were a vet, imagining myself in your shoes, I would say the latter because 1. there is no evidence either way; 2. I can't protect myself or my client if something goes wrong so being there almost as an observer would feel more comfortable.

I wish there were more vets like yourself M&Z. Good luck with your exams and you have many supporters... if you need some barefoot horses for your project, you know who to call


----------



## amandap (27 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Can I just say how great a vet it sounds as though you are going to be Monteandzoom?
		
Click to expand...

Seconded wholeheartedly.



cptrayes said:



			I also fear that it is resulting in an absolute explosion in box rest for conditions that would be better kept moving, but that's another thread.
		
Click to expand...

I so agree and this is one of my particular pet hates. Stressed, box walking (in tight circles) etc. so then sedated...  
Whatever happened to risk management and devising a plan of care that is agreed, workable and less stressful for the horse and owner. Care planning should take into account all aspects ie. take account of the effects of interventions on the horse and particularly any negative impact.

ps. Thanks Obi one. x


----------



## tallyho! (27 October 2012)

reborn amandap said:



			Whatever happened to risk management and devising a plan of care that is agreed, workable and less stressful for the horse and owner. Care planning should take into account all aspects ie. take account of the effects of interventions on the horse and particularly any negative impact.
		
Click to expand...

That's kind of why I chose a qualified trimmer over a farrier when I went barefoot. I felt like there was a plan based on what we had to work with and we were being cared about right from the very beginning. I started out like most people... a wreck at my wits end facing potential pts. This is what I think a lot of trimmers have to work with in the beginning.

I think the two big "schools of barefoot" have a lot to offer the veterinary profession if they would open up and listen.


----------



## Alyth (28 October 2012)

. 

I would love to do a study.......but I am busy trying to pass vet school first [/QUOTE]""

I would love to know what was reccommended as treatment for the various forms of lameness etc....


----------



## Hollycatt (28 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			But they don't.

Neither vets nor farriers have hardworking barefoot horses covered in their courses.
		
Click to expand...

This is not necessarily true. Maybe in the UK, but certainly not everywhere   I should also be a 4th year vet student, however I dropped out of my degree as I could not afford my tuition fees. Once I win the lottery etc I will be back  

Where I study as part of our degree we can choose a course called 'the horse in the farriers view'. I think its about 20 hours lectures and I am pretty sure the lecturer will be sympathetic to barefoot.  I know a lot of horses here work hard barefoot. An hour outside the capital you can see mares with foal at foot pulling carts laden with produce/manure or whatever along the road in the summer. They are real working horses. Of course we also have sports horses too.

I also very much wanted to do my thesis on barefoot as most (but not all) my horses in the last 10 years have been barefoot and I have attended trimming courses and trimmed myself. Howver I took the easy way out and my thesis is finished and although on an entirely different topic hopefully is good enough to publish  

If I ever get on that course and get back to uni I will let you know what they say and teach


----------



## sarahann1 (28 October 2012)

http://abertay.summon.serialssoluti...ontentType,Journal+Article,&s.q=Horse+shoeing

There are a fair number of peer review papers available regarding shoeing, effects of shoeing etc. This is only a list from my own institutions subs which are limited by comparison to larger institutions.


----------



## tallyho! (28 October 2012)

Thanks Sarah. None of us can access them though as you need a password.


----------



## saturdaygirl (28 October 2012)

Hi MontyandZoom, really happy to have found this post as it echoes a lot of what I'm feeling at the moment!

I'm a final year student, with a really keen interest in barefoot management. I'm trying to read and find out as much as I possibly can, but as you say the lack of evidence based medicine (and the fact that remedial shoeing has been set a precedent in the treatment of so many lamenesses) makes me wonder how far I'm going to be able to get in recommending barefoot for lame horses in my career. At least early on in my career the very least I can hope is that I will be sympathetic vet and useful to those owners who are already barefoot - but the dream is to be able to confidently recommend shoes-off a management tool for navicular type injuries etc, and get more people managing horses barefoot as I really believe in it. In the end I did my dissertation on MRI of the digit, as I felt trying to do something barefoot-related was a total minefield. I'd be very interested in doing some of the barefoot courses though, and I've spent time seeing practice with an older vet who is VERY pro 'shoes off' and trims a lot of horses himself.

Do let me know if you get somewhere with finding ways of learning about barefoot and trimming, I'm a bit of a lurker on here but would be very interested.


----------



## sarahann1 (28 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Thanks Sarah. None of us can access them though as you need a password.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately peer reviewed is very commonly hidden behind a pay wall. In this case you'd need a uni sub. But at least it shows that research is being done, even if it's not available to the man on the street.


----------



## ester (28 October 2012)

I have pretty full access although I have only tried to find stuff on shoeing pathological hooves previously rather than shoeing for soundness per se, I know that I wasn't that impressed with what I read a while ago, I might have a gander through your list if I get time.


----------



## cptrayes (29 October 2012)

ester said:



			I have pretty full access although I have only tried to find stuff on shoeing pathological hooves previously rather than shoeing for soundness per se, I know that I wasn't that impressed with what I read a while ago, I might have a gander through your list if I get time.
		
Click to expand...

Ester if you do, and you can find a single one with serious numbers in the study (more than ten would help!) with an unshod control group then I will cheerfully eat my own hat


----------



## cptrayes (29 October 2012)

Hollycatt said:



			This is not necessarily true. Maybe in the UK, but certainly not everywhere 

Click to expand...


Errrrr - this is a UK based forum?  What I wrote is true of the UK. The fact that it may not be where you live is of no help whatsoever to all of us who keep horses in Britain. Though I am glad it may be better elsewhere


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (29 October 2012)

MontyandZoom said:



			I'm a 4th year at vet school and have been reading with interest the NUMEROUS posts about shoeing vs barefoot trimming.

I got to thinking about why this method of treatment has not filtered into the mainstream in terms of vets and teaching. There are lots of posts on here which talk about vets 'not knowing any better' than remedial shoeing, but this strikes me as unfair.

As a vet you should always be able to defend your chosen treatment in terms of evidence based medicine. The benefits of a particular treatment having been shown in a peer-reviewed, published study with a significant enough sample size. 

If barefoot trimming really is so much better than shoeing, surely people should be lobbying for studies to be done to prove it. (they may be some already.....I'm not sure). Otherwise how can vets legally and ethically recommend it on purely anecdotal evidence? I am not at all dismissive of it but would like to know what it going on in terms of moving forward in barefoot trimming and veterinary medicine.
		
Click to expand...

I am currently doing a study/dissertation into barefoot vs shoeing in terms of foot balance, soundness and performance


----------



## amandap (29 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Ester if you do, and you can find a single one with serious numbers in the study (more than ten would help!) with an unshod control group then I will cheerfully eat my own hat 

Click to expand...

Hope it's a straw one... just in case


----------



## MontyandZoom (29 October 2012)

badgermyers said:



			I am currently doing a study/dissertation into barefoot vs shoeing in terms of foot balance, soundness and performance 

Click to expand...

Please please let us know what you find out!! I'm sure there are loads of people who would be interested in the results x


----------



## ester (29 October 2012)

Is that a practical project BM or literature?

CP I'll keep in touch


----------



## serenityjane (29 October 2012)

My son is a student vet (3rd year) and got marked down in his horse EMS (Work experience) report in the first year for suggesting that shoes were not a necessity for the working horse! He plans to try to do some work experience next year with a vet who is also a barefoot trimmer so that he can form an unbiased, medical based opinion on horses performing without shoes and the whole idea of shoe removal therapy.


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (29 October 2012)

Practical but I have looked at papers from both sides. 

I am aiming to find around 20 shod and 20 barefoot horses to carry out measurements on. I am looking forward to the results


----------



## Hollycatt (29 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Errrrr - this is a UK based forum?  What I wrote is true of the UK. The fact that it may not be where you live is of no help whatsoever to all of us who keep horses in Britain. Though I am glad it may be better elsewhere 

Click to expand...

Yes, it is a UK based forum. I am a UK national. I have trained as a vet overseas as the tuition fees and cost of living in the UK were too high for me. I along with many of my peers will work in the UK on graduation. This is just one school. More and more vet schools throuout europe are offering English language degrees and more and more students priced out of the UK will study overseas and then return.  I know many vets of all nationalities and from different vet schools worldwide working in the UK. So overseas education is very relevant as on some issues it is superior to UK vet education, in some areas woefully behind. 

I am glad to see so many other students are looking at this issue and writing their thesis on it


----------



## TigerTail (29 October 2012)

serenityjane said:



			My son is a student vet (3rd year) and got marked down in his horse EMS (Work experience) report in the first year for suggesting that shoes were not a necessity for the working horse! He plans to try to do some work experience next year with a vet who is also a barefoot trimmer so that he can form an unbiased, medical based opinion on horses performing without shoes and the whole idea of shoe removal therapy.
		
Click to expand...

Which vet school is that?! He shouldve complained and put forward endurance horses etc as egs


----------



## cptrayes (29 October 2012)

serenityjane said:



			My son is a student vet (3rd year) and got marked down in his horse EMS (Work experience) report in the first year for suggesting that shoes were not a necessity for the working horse! He plans to try to do some work experience next year with a vet who is also a barefoot trimmer so that he can form an unbiased, medical based opinion on horses performing without shoes and the whole idea of shoe removal therapy.
		
Click to expand...

Please tell your son to appeal that mark. I and others would gladly provide him with evidence that shoes are not a necessity to hunt, event or do endurance on. Please PM me if I can assist, I have a ton of photographic evidence which would prove the point.


----------



## cptrayes (29 October 2012)

Freddie19 said:



			sat outside the stable manager's office at very large show in eastern part of england a few months ago.
		
Click to expand...

Can I ask how many of the horses and ponies you saw at that "very large show" were in show condition? In other words, fat ????  Because that's probably the number one cause of horses which cannot work without shoes.


----------



## LucyPriory (29 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Can I ask how many of the horses and ponies you saw at that "very large show" were in show condition? In other words, fat ????  Because that's probably the number one cause of horses which cannot work without shoes.
		
Click to expand...

I've worked on horses that go lame when fat and sound when a better weight.  Not all owners get it and I can think of one in particular that would rather their horse was lami, shod and fat then slim and sound.  Very sad


----------



## tallyho! (29 October 2012)

LucyPriory said:



			I've worked on horses that go lame when fat and sound when a better weight.  Not all owners get it and I can think of one in particular that would rather their horse was lami, shod and fat then slim and sound.  Very sad
		
Click to expand...

Show pony?


----------



## SusieT (29 October 2012)

of course just because the barefoot people shout loudest at times doesn't mean they are right and that is part of what being a vet is about-telling someone their horse needs shoes, same as telling the man who won't feed his cats meat, the person who 'doesnt believe' in not having multiple litters of pups and  all the other wacky things people come up with which are actually harmful. Not saying it is for all horses-but alternative treatments are not always successfull just because t hey are alternative..


----------



## Goldenstar (29 October 2012)

SusieT said:



			of course just because the barefoot people shout loudest at times doesn't mean they are right and that is part of what being a vet is about-telling someone their horse needs shoes, same as telling the man who won't feed his cats meat, the person who 'doesnt believe' in not having multiple litters of pups and  all the other wacky things people come up with which are actually harmful. Not saying it is for all horses-but alternative treatments are not always successfull just because t hey are alternative..[/

Cats are carnivores , horses are not born with shoes on it does not really seem a comparison to me.
I still never understand why this subject stirs people up so much I am sure having three BF that most horses can do a certain level of work BF I am about to see how hunting goes we shall see ,if he's not coping I shoe him for the winter then pop them off again in March it's not like having a horse BF is like embracing a religion or something it's ok to dip in and out or if you want work the horse less to keep it at a level it's comfortable with if it suits your situation . 
My OH's horse is shod he hunts him hard the horse spent the summer working without shoes or in boots his feet got a good rest from shoeing  his heels improved and he got good heel first landing established he had a worrying toe first landing by the end of last season. I don't see having him in shoes any sort of failure in march he be straight out of shoes and spend the summer working BF using boots if necessary .
Why should this approach be controversial .
		
Click to expand...


----------



## cptrayes (29 October 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Cats are carnivores , horses are not born with shoes on it does not really seem a comparison to me.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Clava (30 October 2012)

Freddie19 said:



			sat outside the stable manager's office at very large show in eastern part of england a few months ago.....watched, I would say many many horses and ponies walk (hobble) past on way to lorries or show rings.....roadway was hard standing, with some small stones and gravel, bordered by grass.  I was amazed at how many (mostly) ponies manouvered their way onto grass to walk, when on lane, some looked quite frankly as if they were laminitic.  have no knowledge of barefoot technology,  but feel, it must be very very strongly watched by vets or farriers who do know about it.  Do not want to put down those people who are very aware of how long it takes to turn a shod equine into a barefoot one, but please, take good advice if you are intending to go down this route.  I still have nightmares about one little pony.
		
Click to expand...

You don't say if these ponies were shod or bare? At least if they were bare there are pre-laminitic symptoms that could be treated (footiness) which probably wouldn't be apparent if they were shod until it was too late.


----------



## TigerTail (30 October 2012)

SusieT said:



			of course just because the barefoot people shout loudest at times doesn't mean they are right and that is part of what being a vet is about-telling someone their horse needs shoes
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't mind being told that if I knew that the vet knew at least as much as I do about bf!!! When they dont, are not taught it on the syllabus and are actively discouraged from learning about it they do not have the right to tell me to put nails in my horses feet!


----------



## Goldenstar (30 October 2012)

TigerTail said:



			I wouldn't mind being told that if I knew that the vet knew at least as much as I do about bf!!! When they dont, are not taught it on the syllabus and are actively discouraged from learning about it they do not have the right to tell me to put nails in my horses feet!
		
Click to expand...

No Tiger Tail they no not ,vets should at least be opened minded ,however I fear that the attiude of some let's be clear I am lumping all vets together in this is governed by ego or even worse the fact there is very little money in it for the vets to approach issues the BF way.
Insurance is also an issue ( thankfully not for me) is a horse has caudal pain in the foot then the clock is ticking from the moment the vet first sees it that makes it difficult for a vet a say take off his shoes and lead him round for three months then we will take another look.
From the moment a vet sees a lame insured horse the time clock is ticking and they have x to spend in a set time frame before the issue becomes uninsured .


----------



## tallyho! (30 October 2012)

If it wasn't about being barefoot.... But it was about horses actually needing time out of shoes, would that curry a different attitude from vets?

I still can't see why a vet, who can clearly see a deformed foot in shoes, can actually say try another type of shoe. Why is not commonly taught that the best thing is to rest the foot?

If its because the owner wants a horse to ride then shame on them. Shoeing a crippled horse in wedges and still competing it is much more cruel than taking its shoes off and letting it have a winter or summer off.


----------



## amandap (30 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			If it wasn't about being barefoot.... But it was about horses actually needing time out of shoes, would that curry a different attitude from vets?

I still can't see why a vet, who can clearly see a deformed foot in shoes, can actually say try another type of shoe. Why is not commonly taught that the best thing is to rest the foot?

If its because the owner wants a horse to ride then shame on them. Shoeing a crippled horse in wedges and still competing it is much more cruel than taking its shoes off and letting it have a winter or summer off.
		
Click to expand...

To put a slightly different spin on these points I wonder if keeping the horse working is often the driver. I mean as opposed to stopping and saying...hang on a minute this isn't right, what is causing all these problems...


----------



## Clava (30 October 2012)

reborn amandap said:



			To put a slightly different spin on these points I wonder if keeping the horse working is often the driver. I mean as opposed to stopping and saying...hang on a minute this isn't right, what is causing all these problems...
		
Click to expand...



I agree. For me it is broke (as in the hoof needs shoes) so I would want to try and "fix " it or at least see if it could be made stronger.


----------



## TigerTail (30 October 2012)

Tallyho - im guessing because when you take shoes off horses on the average pre bagged mix diet they will be lame? So vet would get blame and bf would be bad etc etc?


----------



## tallyho! (30 October 2012)

TigerTail said:



			Tallyho - im guessing because when you take shoes off horses on the average pre bagged mix diet they will be lame? So vet would get blame and bf would be bad etc etc?
		
Click to expand...

Yes but what I was precluding to was time out of shoes, rested in a field. This is what used to happen to the hunters and they came back sound and were shod sound ready to be fittened up for the season.


----------



## Fransurrey (30 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Errrrr - this is a UK based forum?  What I wrote is true of the UK. The fact that it may not be where you live is of no help whatsoever to all of us who keep horses in Britain. Though I am glad it may be better elsewhere 

Click to expand...

Actually many vets qualified elsewhere do work here, so it is very relevant. Certainly the local small animal practice where I live uses Australians quite a lot! Also, due to the EU freedom to work regs, vets can work here if qualified elsewhere in the EU (Hollycatt is in Budapest).

Below are some references to shoes and the effects on horses with regards to way of going and injury. Further references for vets to look up would be Dr James R Rooney DVM (RIP, what a guy!), Dr Robert Bowker VMD, PhD and to an extent Gene Ovnicek. Dr Rooney in particular submitted many articles to the American Farriers' Journal and is also the author of The Lame Horse, one of his finest achievements. 
I found those below referenced in an article on IVIS (International Veterinary Information Service, of which I'm a member). The article was:

Review of Some Past, Present and Possible Future Directions in Biomechanics of the Equine Hoof
Jeffrey J. Thomason PhD
Author&#8217;s address: Department of Biomedical Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario

------------------------
Thomason JJ, Cruz AM, Bignell W, et al. In situ strain measurement on the equine hoof, in
Proceedings. Soc Exp Mech 2008;1636-1642.
^Marked differences in hoofstrain in midstance observed during a study. Not included in detail in the paper, but referenced on IVIS: 
------------------------
Benoit P, Barrey E, Regnault JC, et al. Comparison of the damping effect of different shoeing by
the measurement of hoof acceleration. Acta Anat 1993;146:109-113.

Back W, van Schie MHM, Pol JN. Synthetic shoes attenuate hoof impact in the trotting
warmblood horse. Equine Comp Ex Phys 3(03):143-151.
^^Metal shoes increase the magnitude of the &#8216;impact strike&#8217;.
-------------------------
McClinchey HL, Thomason JJ, Runciman RJ. Grip and slippage of the horse's hoof on solid
substrates measured ex vivo. Biosys Eng 2004;89(4):485-494.

Vos NJ, Riemersma DJ. Determination of coefficient of friction between the equine foot and
different ground surfaces: an in vitro study. Equine Comp Ex Phys 2006;3:191-198.

Pardoe CH, McGuigan MP, Rogers KM, et al. The effect of shoe material on the kinetics and
kinematics of foot slip at impact on concrete. Equine Vet J Suppl 2001;(33):70-73.

Pratt GW. Model for injury to the foreleg of the Thoroughbred racehorse. Equine Vet J Suppl
1997(23):30.
^^^^Reducing slippage time (using shoes/toegrabs) is potentially dangerous in horses. Friction between show and surface can be an influential factor.
------------------
Thomason JJ. Variation in surface strain on the equine hoof wall at the midstep with shoeing,
gait, substrate, direction of travel, and hoof shape. Equine Vet J Suppl 1998;26:86-95.
^Orientation of strains differs significantly in shod hooves (the magnitudes of the strains do not)


----------



## MotherOfChickens (30 October 2012)

my old farrier (I now use a trimmer) used to recommend a yearly shoe 'holiday' to all owners-but he said that when he wanted the holiday to be long enough for the nail holes to grow out most owners balked. Basically, most owners these days want their horses in low amounts of work year round.  Back in the day most working horses such as hunters and jumpers would get properly let down and have 24/7 turnout while being unshod (and then properly legged up but thats a different thread).
Of course a 3 month holiday while paying for livery costs may make some balk but there are plenty of good boots available now and most people I know only ride in a sandbox anyway-especially in the winter.


----------



## SO1 (30 October 2012)

Have not read all the posts but I imagine there might be an insurance issue with recommending treatment for which there is no peer reviewed evidence based clinical trials if it goes wrong and person decides to sue vet.

With regard to clinical trials they are difficult to run properly as you need a control group with the same injury and with horses of a similar type age and size and both need to ideally be on the same premises and on the same diet to prove it is actually shoes off and trimming techniques that is causing the improvement not the lifestyle/diet of barefoot horses which can be different to shod ones. You also need to have owners who are willing to take the risk of letting their horse be in the clinical trial where one treatment might be not as good as the other. 

Rockley has had a good success rate but my understanding is that Nic only takes on cases if she thinks that they have a good chance of recovery. Ethically this is the right thing to do as it means people do not waste money when there is little hope of improvement. However in terms of how successful barefoot is on the whole in terms of curing problems it would be fair on this evidence to say that not all horses will be suitable candidates for this sort of rehabilitation in the same way as not all horses will do well on traditional methods recommended by most vets.

I think another problem is that a lot of the barefoot advocates can come across as closed minded to other forms of treatment and possibly the way that they communicate does not help them build up relationships with vets who come from a more traditional background. For example you have to think how you would feel if you had been mainly recommending a certain practice for years and felt it had been successful and then someone with no qualifications or training in your subject came along and told you in maybe quite a forceful way that what you were doing was detrimental to the welfare of the animals you were trying to treat. People often find change quite challenging and it is something you have to introduce gently to get people used to the idea, with plenty of evidence to back it up.

The only other thing that might be useful was if a database was set up in which people could store information about successful outcomes of using barefoot which could be accessed by vets. The cases would have to be approved by a vet with before and after videos before they could be added to verify that improvement had taken place. In terms of sponsorship/funding you would ideally want to be independent from organisations that would make money from the results such are feed companies that supply barefoot feeds etc . Ideally you would want funding from an academic institution as project.


----------



## Littlelegs (30 October 2012)

I don't think the insurance has that much relevance to vets. Cartrophen isn't even licensed (or wasn't last I heard) but neither vets nor insurance have a problem with it. The only insurance complication is that most of them like as many reasons not to pay out as they can think up.


----------



## Goldenstar (30 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			I don't think the insurance has that much relevance to vets. Cartrophen isn't even licensed (or wasn't last I heard) but neither vets nor insurance have a problem with it. The only insurance complication is that most of them like as many reasons not to pay out as they can think up.
		
Click to expand...

I think you are right many untested treatments are used on horses however time pressure does I think pay a roll in how vets act .


----------



## Goldenstar (30 October 2012)

TigerTail said:



			Tallyho - im guessing because when you take shoes off horses on the average pre bagged mix diet they will be lame? So vet would get blame and bf would be bad etc etc?
		
Click to expand...

For years I fed my horses pre  bagged food and they where not lame when I removed shoes( unless of course they had a lameness) and have always regularly removed shoes however once I started to work the horses without shoes I had to make changes to how I fed them to get them working BF.


----------



## Littlelegs (30 October 2012)

Very good point re feed. My mare never had diet changes when her shoes came off. And I haven't ever fed a barefoot diet in shoes either. But, being connie x tb, she's a very good doer with lots of energy, so her feed was always managed for that, rather than the typical mixes etc. At 14 its not like I was thinking of healthy hooves when I avoided most feeds. Just her weight & behavior. Which no doubt goes a long way to explain why her transistion to shoeless consisted of removing shoes one day & very little else.


----------



## FairyLights (30 October 2012)

Very interesting thread.


----------



## LucyPriory (30 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Show pony?
		
Click to expand...

'traditionally built' lady (Ladies No. 1 Detective) felt more comfortable that a large horse could accomodate.  So rather than buy a large horse she made a smallish/medium one very fat.

PS I am also traditionally built, so no bias there.


----------



## LucyPriory (30 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			If its because the owner wants a horse to ride then shame on them. Shoeing a crippled horse in wedges and still competing it is much more cruel than taking its shoes off and letting it have a winter or summer off.
		
Click to expand...

Very sadly I come across this all the time, not daily, but pretty close.


----------



## LucyPriory (30 October 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I think you are right many untested treatments are used on horses however time pressure does I think pay a roll in how vets act .
		
Click to expand...

I agree at least 50% probably more conversations I have with vets include the insurance claim time.


----------



## Holly Hocks (30 October 2012)

SO1 said:



			Have not read all the posts but I imagine there might be an insurance issue with recommending treatment for which there is no peer reviewed evidence based clinical trials if it goes wrong and person decides to sue vet.
		
Click to expand...

Well I assume that if a vet is recommending a shoeing treatment then it's going to be remedial shoeing.  Is there actually any peer reviewed evidence that remedial shoeing works?  And I don't mean shoes on, horse sound for 12 months.  I mean long term evidence.


----------



## cptrayes (30 October 2012)

Fransurrey said:



			Actually many vets qualified elsewhere do work here, so it is very relevant. Certainly the local small animal practice where I live uses Australians quite a lot! Also, due to the EU freedom to work regs, vets can work here if qualified elsewhere in the EU (Hollycatt is in Budapest).
		
Click to expand...

In over 30 years of multiple horse ownership I have met only  two equine vets who did not qualify in this country.

Is there any evidence that vets who qualify in other countries are taught any more about hardworking barefoot horses and barefoot rehabs for caudal hoof lameness than UK vets are?


----------



## cptrayes (30 October 2012)

SO1 said:



			Rockley has had a good success rate but my understanding is that Nic only takes on cases if she thinks that they have a good chance of recovery. Ethically this is the right thing to do as it means people do not waste money when there is little hope of improvement. However in terms of how successful barefoot is on the whole in terms of curing problems it would be fair on this evidence to say that not all horses will be suitable candidates for this sort of rehabilitation in the same way as not all horses will do well on traditional methods recommended by most vets.
		
Click to expand...

This may be true but it is a misleading thing to read unless you know the horses that she takes on. Many of them have been very long term lame in spite of the best that farriery and medicine can provide. Many of them are going to Rockley as a last resort before they are shot or put out to grass. But she knows that there is a good chance that a barefoot rehab will work, so she takes them on. 

As an example, her one she did free this summer was an ex racer, lame for over a year, already barefoot and failing to improve with "typical" flat and underrun TB feet.  The horse is back in work for the first time in many months.

So to say that the results are skewed because she only takes on horses she knows it will help is not correct. The truth is that she takes on almost any horse with soft tissue damage inside the feet (and many with additional bone and cartilage problems) which does not have metabolic disease which will prevent it from forming good feet. And most of those horses recover, where the success rate for conventional treatments is much, much, _much_ lower.

My own impression, having followed every horse that appears on the Rockley blog, and part way through my own second rehab that was long term unsound in remedial shoes,  is that if a horse does not recover with a barefoot rehab it's got almost no chance with remedial shoeing and medication.


----------



## criso (30 October 2012)

SO1 said:



			Rockley has had a good success rate but my understanding is that Nic only takes on cases if she thinks that they have a good chance of recovery. Ethically this is the right thing to do as it means people do not waste money when there is little hope of improvement. However in terms of how successful barefoot is on the whole in terms of curing problems it would be fair on this evidence to say that not all horses will be suitable candidates for this sort of rehabilitation in the same way as not all horses will do well on traditional methods recommended by most vets.

.
		
Click to expand...

But to be fair the cases she takes on have often already gone through and been failed by tradtional treatment so if she is not taking a representative sample it is arguable she is taking on all the failures and worse cases; the write offs and loss of use and horses the vets have said pts.   A random sample would actually include alot of easier cases not so far advanced but the reality of where things stand is that people turn to barefoot after all else has failed.

As for traditional treatments, let's just look at the stats in this study  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2010.00081.x/abstract

For one of the injuries Frankie had the recovery rate was 10% and that's before you consider that horses with combined pathologies had a worse prognosis and he had two other issues.  If I'd seen these figures before, I wouldn't have gone down the traditional route with that kind of success rate.

Plus I also took part in a study that followed up horses with foot injuries from where he had the MRI.  This study took the highly rigorous approach of asking owners to fill in a questionnaire assessing their horses.  No follow up with the vets, no work ups, no videos or picture, just a questionnaire to the owners asking to assess how many tenths lame at various points.  No doubt this will be published to great acclaim because it comes out of a highly respected clinic.

Having said that I think that posters have been a little harsh on vets, I know mine tried to do the best with limited tools and would have done anything he could to help me.  He admitted some treatments (Cartrophen) had limited justification but on the basis they would not do any harm it was worth a try if it would get my horse sound for me.

When it came to refer him to Rockley he did so despite no experience of it, he knew there was nothing else he offer me. He warned me not get my hopes up but  not because he was being anti barefoot but because he did not want me pin too many hopes on it.  

If you've always been taught a certain way it is very difficult to stand against everyone and take an opposing stance and vets have to be very careful because I've seen owners be very quick to come back and blame if something doesn't work.

For the OP and the other potential vets who want to investigate, get in contact with Rockley and other trimmers/farriers who are doing work in this field and make your own mind up.


----------



## Bikerchickone (30 October 2012)

Cptrayes you beat me to it about the free horse Nic took on this year. After all the comments about how Nic was 'sure' to pick an easy horse, those saying so should really take a look at the pictures of this horse's feet. He's working well now though! Having also seen another HHO forum member's horse arrive at Rockley and seen just how crippled he was when he arrived to how he's been in recent pics on facebook I'd have to say nobody would have said he was going to be easy to rehab. 

The fact is Nic doesn't offer guarantees, but like Criso's horse above my lad had a 10% chance of recovery with conventional treatment, for just one of his issues, yet thanks to Nic and the barefoot people on here I have a sound and healthy horse who's enjoying life to the full. 

Incidentally as well, I mentioned this thread to Nic and she's more than happy for any vets or vet students to contact her about going to see what she does, so please do contact her. Lots of us on here can help if you need an email address etc.


----------

