# Foxhunting! Help!



## Jade and Dolly (29 November 2015)

I have heard loads of people talk about how fun Foxhunting is and i really wanted to give it a go with my horse!

However I've been told by my mums close friend not to go as they don't care about the horses and it's the most dangerous thing , as horses are always breaking legs and getting damaged! And the horse get there hooves stuck down rabbit holes and torn apart by thorns, I understand it's very dangerous and it's more dangerous than  eventing! 

But how dangerous is it truthly for the horse and rider like do horses break damage legs often?!

Any advice and views will be really appreciated!


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## Fairynuff (29 November 2015)

it's not fun for the fox and certainly more dangerous for him. Drag hunting is safer for everyone


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## spacefaer (29 November 2015)

Of course we care about our horses - we spend hours in the saddle, getting them fit and taking them hunting - we know them incredibly well, and they are wrapped in cotton wool to make sure they are fit and well enough to take hunting. 

Ours have a fab life - they get most of the summer being horses in the field, and spent the winter cantering round the countryside with their friends - what's not to like??

I have evented and hunted all my life - my worst falls have been eventing, and the most damage any of my horses have had, was at a hunter trial over a 2'9 fence.

Of course, there are risks, to both horse and rider, but we do everything possible to minimise them.

Never had a broken leg, hoof stuck in rabbit hole and I have had the occasional thorn in a leg, but certainly not "torn apart" and it was no worse than you might get cantering across a common!

Just to add, since we are trail hunting (following a man made scent), fairynuff's comment is irrelevant. Drag hunting is no more or less "safer" than any other form of hunting.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 November 2015)

Fairynuff said:



			it's not fun for the fox and certainly more dangerous for him. Drag hunting is safer for everyone 

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Do you hunt foxes in Italy? We haven't for some years in the UK.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (29 November 2015)

I both event & hunt, and have to say, I think it's certainly no more dangerous than eventing, in fact, I think you hear about more eventing accidents happening than you do hunting. Hunting is a truly wonderful sport, and pretty much every horse loves it! 

With regards to not caring for our horses, well that certainly, or at least in the large majority of cases, isn't true. All our horses mean the world to us, and we certainly take _every_ measure imaginable to ensure no harm comes to them. I love my horses, and if it doesn't sound too cheesy, with all my heart. I'd never wish any harm upon them.

Broken legs out hunting - very rare indeed. Of course there's always a risk, however, it's certainly no greater risk than racing or eventing. There's a risk that they can break a leg in the field grazing, but, most of us take that risk by turning them out, don't we? 

I've recently lost one to a catastrophic fracture, sustained in her field. She was a retired mare, who simply spent her days eating grass. So I guess there's always that risk, with anything we do with our horses, be it leave them in the stable, or race them.

Falling in rabbit holes - That can also happen out hacking. In the time I've hunted, I've never seen yet a horse fall through one.

There's a small chance that, if jumping hedges, they can get a thorn stuck in them, but it's not that common.
Most packs will have a non-jumping option, so if you don't wish to jump a hedge, you often don't have to. It depends on the pack.

Have a go at hunting, perhaps autumn hunting first, the pace is slower and more relaxed. As I said, most horses, and their riders, love it, and, it's really no more dangerous than other equestrian activities


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## Orca (29 November 2015)

I don't hunt now but everyone I have known who does, cares a great deal about their horses. I was present at a hunt where someone was killed (a Whip, my friend and neighbour) but this was an unfortunate accident. I've seen many more accidents eventing and more horses injured at xc than hunting. It's possible to gather thorns out hacking and the only time I've ever had a horse get her leg into a rabbit hole was also out hacking. I would say hunting is no more or less dangerous than any other cross country ride at speed, for horse and rider at least


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## Shay (30 November 2015)

Of all the untrue, biased misconceptions on hunting your mum's friend's view is one of the oddest.  I would echo others' responses that hunting is almost certainly less dangerous than eventing.  I have hunted all my riding life (pre and post ban) and seen only a small handful of horses injured at all.  In contrast my daughter events and I fence judge BE and I see more horses injured in a weekend at some events than I have seen my entire life hunting.   We broke more kids at PC camp this year than injured riders last season  - although I accept we had a bit of a rough PC camp!

 And to suggest that we don't care about our horses is - to be honest - offensive.  Absolutely we care - massively.  Equiequestrian's response to that is eloquent.

As Fuzzy Fury says we haven't actually hunted foxes in the UK for 10 years - although the name foxhunting, as opposed to drag hunting, blood hounding, beagling etc, remains to differentiate what the hounds are trained for and how they are worked.  All hunts follow a trail laid one way or another.  

The only way to really know what hunting is like is to try it.  Don't let others uninformed views put you off.


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## Orangehorse (30 November 2015)

Get horses galloping and jumping over unknown ground and there are always going to be the occasional accident.  In fact I think that hunting has quite a good record when you think of the numbers involved and what sort of terrain (unknown) they are going over.  The fact that the ground is soft, I always think.  Yes, I have known of horse fatalities, serious accidents and human deaths, but they are rare.

As a previous poster says, horses can damage themselves at grass.  The best preventative is to get the horse properly fit, well schooled enough so it isn't going to be completely out of control and run itself into danger, and for the rider, keep alert to hazards and make sure the horse is presented correctly at any obstacle, so it knows what the question is, be brave and kick on.


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## Fairynuff (30 November 2015)

there is very little 'fox hunting, (one pack in Rome ) the rest drag hunt.


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## Fairynuff (30 November 2015)

Shay said:



			Of all the untrue, biased misconceptions on hunting your mum's friend's view is one of the oddest.  I would echo others' responses that hunting is almost certainly less dangerous than eventing.  I have hunted all my riding life (pre and post ban) and seen only a small handful of horses injured at all.  In contrast my daughter events and I fence judge BE and I see more horses injured in a weekend at some events than I have seen my entire life hunting.   We broke more kids at PC camp this year than injured riders last season  - although I accept we had a bit of a rough PC camp!

 And to suggest that we don't care about our horses is - to be honest - offensive.  Absolutely we care - massively.  Equiequestrian's response to that is eloquent.

As Fuzzy Fury says we haven't actually hunted foxes in the UK for 10 years - although the name foxhunting, as opposed to drag hunting, blood hounding, beagling etc, remains to differentiate what the hounds are trained for and how they are worked.  All hunts follow a trail laid one way or another.  

The only way to really know what hunting is like is to try it.  Don't let others uninformed views put you off.
		
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Fox hunting has not stopped in the UK.


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## Fairynuff (30 November 2015)

Fairynuffs comment is not 'irrelevant', thankyou very much! Drag hunting has its risks too but as the hounds follow a prelaid scent the chances of finding yourself in unknown country with unknown risks the chances of having an accident is limited. The jumps are usually ' jump friendly having been built by the hunt. It can be fast and accidents can happen, as they can in any sport' and as someone pointed out-horses can be injured in their field. The wonderful thing about draghunting is the absence of the fox


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## Luci07 (30 November 2015)

Fairynuff said:



			Fairynuffs comment is not 'irrelevant', thankyou very much! Drag hunting has its risks too but as the hounds follow a prelaid scent the chances of finding yourself in unknown country with unknown risks the chances of having an accident is limited. The jumps are usually ' jump friendly having been built by the hunt. It can be fast and accidents can happen, as they can in any sport' and as someone pointed out-horses can be injured in their field. The wonderful thing about draghunting is the absence of the fox 

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Its not unknown country for the hunt. The hunt staff know where they are going and you seem to be forgetting that as we follow a laid scent, not a fox, the route has been agreed and set. Even in the time of proper hunting, hunt staff know the general lie of the land and where to take care. I have hunted across land where the entire hunt was told they had to follow a single line due to conservancy.. and did, or steer clear of a headland to avoid wrecking fields.. and we did. Personally, having tried drag hunting, I found hunting much safer as the manners seemed to be better! I could hunt my horse quite happily for the majority of the day but we only lasted 1 hour out on the drag. Too many people seriously out of control who wound my horse up badly.


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## Templebar (30 November 2015)

Most in the UK is drag hunting now, but the main difference being foxhounds where the scent is laid as a fox may have gone in days gone by, twisting forth and back and patches of lost scent so followers might get to see how hounds work and make their way through a cover. Some legal fox hunting is allowed but this still follows a degree of planning on which areas will and wont be covered, both types with fox hounds is over all slower with fast sections and stops to wait for the hounds to find the scent. 

The other is blood hounding or what was drag hunting in the times before the ban, this follows a scent over a predetermined trail, mainly designed for enjoyment of the follower, so tends to be faster runs over a number of fences, which are mostly designed by the hunt so deemed safe. This has fewer breaks and tends to be faster. 

The pack you go with will determine the type of hunting you do and between foxhound packs can vary greatly, hill packs can be quite slow paced and allow more time for watching the hounds work but lower land packs are more often faster and jumping packs, so find one that suits you.


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## spacefaer (30 November 2015)

Templebar said:



			Most in the UK is drag hunting now, but the main difference being foxhounds where the scent is laid as a fox may have gone in days gone by, twisting forth and back and patches of lost scent so followers might get to see how hounds work and make their way through a cover. Some legal fox hunting is allowed but this still follows a degree of planning on which areas will and wont be covered, both types with fox hounds is over all slower with fast sections and stops to wait for the hounds to find the scent. 

The other is blood hounding or what was drag hunting in the times before the ban, this follows a scent over a predetermined trail, mainly designed for enjoyment of the follower, so tends to be faster runs over a number of fences, which are mostly designed by the hunt so deemed safe. This has fewer breaks and tends to be faster. 

The pack you go with will determine the type of hunting you do and between foxhound packs can vary greatly, hill packs can be quite slow paced and allow more time for watching the hounds work but lower land packs are more often faster and jumping packs, so find one that suits you.
		
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Blood hounding and drag hunting are completely separate and always have been.  Blood hounding is "hunting the clean boot" where the blood hounds chase the scent of a man (or woman) running with a head start in front of the hounds.  Drag hunting is a man made scent, laid sometime before (earlier that day, or the day before) and followed by fox hounds. Different again from trail hunting, which pre-ban, was fox hunting, using fox hounds.


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## ycbm (30 November 2015)

Cross posted with spacefaer.

Legal hunting in this country, to clear up some confusion that seems to have arisen.

1. Trail hunting. This is carried out by hunts which used to hunt fox. The scent is set by man to mimic as far as possible following scent left by fox. Sometimes (usually?) the hunt has only a rough idea where the scent goes, again to mimic true hunting conditions. Hounds are fox hounds. Some hunts have no jumping, some have huge hedges, and there are a variety in between.

2. Drag hunting following a scent laid by a runner.  The huntsman knows where the trail has been laid and will keep the hounds to the trail. The scent is generally stronger, and very recently laid. Hounds are fox hounds. All drag hunts have jumps but some guarantee a way round for non jumpers.

3. As 2, but the scent is laid by horse's hoof, which is much quicker.  This can mean shorter checks, so the hunt can crack on if the weather is bad, for example. Otherwise, identical.

4. Hunting the clean boot. Following the body scent of a person who is running with a head start on the hounds. Tends to be slower because the hounds have such a weak scent to go on. Hounds are bloodhounds.

Is it dangerous? No more so than any other fast riding.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (1 December 2015)

spacefaer said:



			Blood hounding and drag hunting are completely separate and always have been.  Blood hounding is "hunting the clean boot" where the blood hounds chase the scent of a man (or woman) running with a head start in front of the hounds.  Drag hunting is a man made scent, laid sometime before (earlier that day, or the day before) and followed by fox hounds. Different again from trail hunting, which pre-ban, was fox hunting, using fox hounds.
		
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^^ This. Drag hunting & bloodhounding (what I do) are two different things.


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## oldie48 (1 December 2015)

How dangerous it is to the rider depends on how sensible your horse is, how well you ride and which hunt you are out with. I don't canter my horse on the road, gallop through heavy going or on hard ground or jump fences  when I don't know how safe they are and what the ground is on the other side, hunts do. Frankly to say eventing is more dangerous than hunting is rubbish. With eventing you walk the course, know what you are jumping, can choose not to run if the ground is unsuitable and don't have to queue to jump a fence or avoid fallers. there are many hunts who will be very welcoming to newcomers and others who frankly are snobby, so choose carefully. I am not anti hunt and my daughter evented at quite a high level and also evented, we had more horse injuries hunting than eventing! My daughter was never injured eventing, my friend who hunts regularly has clocked up a number of broken bones over the years. There are lots of hunting videos on youtube, have a look at some of them and make your own mind up.


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## hackneylass2 (2 December 2015)

Personally I would say that there is more chance of injury eventing, because there is that competitive element, I have had many times I have thought, crikey, did I really chance that?

I would start with bloodhounds, see how you go and then try trail or drag.   But in any event, you can choose your pace somewhat and there is no pressure to 'win'.
Contact the packs you are interested in and ask questions - then try the pack that made you feel most comfortable and welcomed.


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## rachk89 (2 December 2015)

Any discipline can be dangerous for a horse even hacking. What makes it safer is how you approach it with common sense. If you see a hole in the ground steer around it. If you see a thorny bush avoid it if you can. It's simple haha. Just ignore her I imagine she just disagrees with the actual hunting a fox part even though that's now illegal in Britain though that doesn't stop people of course.


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## char3479 (2 December 2015)

I'm interested in the idea that no-one hunts foxes in this country.  It is illegal to hunt foxes with dogs. But, let's face it, it still happens, but the kill isn't made by the dogs in order to get round the law.  The kill is made by an eagle owl, or a gun. And cubbing still happens.
To the people who say fox hunting doesn't happen in this country: do you really believe this? 
I'm genuinely trying to get my head around the fact that so many people I know who appear perfectly normal, and are huge animal lovers, manage to thoroughly enjoy hunting foxes.


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## Fairynuff (2 December 2015)

char3479 said:



			I'm interested in the idea that no-one hunts foxes in this country.  It is illegal to hunt foxes with dogs. But, let's face it, it still happens, but the kill isn't made by the dogs in order to get round the law.  The kill is made by an eagle owl, or a gun. And cubbing still happens.
To the people who say fox hunting doesn't happen in this country: do you really believe this? 
I'm genuinely trying to get my head around the fact that so many people I know who appear perfectly normal, and are huge animal lovers, manage to thoroughly enjoy hunting foxes.
		
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sorry to say Char but the hunts are still killing foxes with hounds. They seem to think they are above the law  Know what you mean about the animal lovers who enjoy hunting, can't get my head round it either. I hunted many years ago and still haven't managed to forgive myself.


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## hackneylass2 (3 December 2015)

The day I see an eagle owl kill a fox is the day I will turn myself in as iving in cloud cuckoo land and believing I am God!


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## char3479 (3 December 2015)

hackneylass2 said:



			The day I see an eagle owl kill a fox is the day I will turn myself in as iving in cloud cuckoo land and believing I am God!
		
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 That sounds like a fantasy. The eagle owl, on the other hand, is a fact. It travels around on the back of a quad bike, in a metal box, until the fox is seen. I know, because I have seen it happen on more than one occasion.  Those who hunt with that particular hunt will know what I'm talking about.


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## Fairynuff (3 December 2015)

hackneylass2 said:



			The day I see an eagle owl kill a fox is the day I will turn myself in as iving in cloud cuckoo land and believing I am God!
		
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me too!


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## ycbm (3 December 2015)

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/jun/23/specieswatch-european-eagle-owl-foxhunting




hackneylass2 said:



			The day I see an eagle owl kill a fox is the day I will turn myself in as iving in cloud cuckoo land and believing I am God!
		
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## char3479 (4 December 2015)

ycbm said:



http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/jun/23/specieswatch-european-eagle-owl-foxhunting

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Yup.


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## hackneylass2 (5 December 2015)

The word was  'possible'.   It's possible for a JRT ko kill a human in certain circumstances! When I hear or read an account from a hunt detailing a kill DIRECTLY from a bird of prey used by them I will most probably believe it.  It's not illegal, so why are hunts not singing the praises of their birds?  unless most of the birds are kept on fist throughout and are just there for show?

Flushing, yes...killing?  I highly doubt it! Considering the cost of a trained Eagle Owl or Golden Eagle, the possibility of injury to the bird is real and as such it seems an expensive way of going about things.

I would be interested to hear from anyone with direct and not anecdotal evidence. Char, does that particular BOP flush or kill?  I am genuinely interested. because I still don't believe it.  As I said, it is perfectly legal to use a BOP  in this way (as far as I am aware) so I would welcome an expert falconer's view.


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## chillipup (5 December 2015)

hackneylass2 said:



			The day I see an eagle owl kill a fox is the day I will turn myself in as iving in cloud cuckoo land and believing I am God!
		
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LOL



char3479 said:



			That sounds like a fantasy. The eagle owl, on the other hand, is a fact. It travels around on the back of a quad bike, in a metal box, until the fox is seen. I know, because I have seen it happen on more than one occasion.  Those who hunt with that particular hunt will know what I'm talking about.
		
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This owl may well be paraded around on the back of a quad bike but did you see it physically attack and kill a fox? If the answer is yes, please tell me exactly what happened, I'm intrigued.


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## chillipup (5 December 2015)

hackneylass2 said:



			The word was  'possible'.   It's possible for a JRT ko kill a human in certain circumstances! When I hear or read an account from a hunt detailing a kill DIRECTLY from a bird of prey used by them I will most probably believe it.  It's not illegal, so why are hunts not singing the praises of their birds?  unless most of the birds are kept on fist throughout and are just there for show?

Flushing, yes...killing?  I highly doubt it! Considering the cost of a trained Eagle Owl or Golden Eagle, the possibility of injury to the bird is real and as such it seems an expensive way of going about things.

I would be interested to hear from anyone with direct and not anecdotal evidence. Char, does that particular BOP flush or kill?  I am genuinely interested. because I still don't believe it.  As I said, it is perfectly legal to use a BOP  in this way (as far as I am aware) so I would welcome an expert falconer's view.
		
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My sentiments exactly. No self respecting owner/handler in their right mind, would surely risk their bird being injured by a fox.


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## Fairynuff (5 December 2015)

hackneylass2 said:



			The word was  'possible'.   It's possible for a JRT ko kill a human in certain circumstances! When I hear or read an account from a hunt detailing a kill DIRECTLY from a bird of prey used by them I will most probably believe it.  It's not illegal, so why are hunts not singing the praises of their birds?  unless most of the birds are kept on fist throughout and are just there for show?

Flushing, yes...killing?  I highly doubt it! Considering the cost of a trained Eagle Owl or Golden Eagle, the possibility of injury to the bird is real and as such it seems an expensive way of going about things.

I would be interested to hear from anyone with direct and not anecdotal evidence. Char, does that particular BOP flush or kill?  I am genuinely interested. because I still don't believe it.  As I said, it is perfectly legal to use a BOP  in this way (as far as I am aware) so I would welcome an expert falconer's view.
		
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I don't think you're going to get a reply any time soon...


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## char3479 (5 December 2015)

chillipup said:



			LOL



This owl may well be paraded around on the back of a quad bike but did you see it physically attack and kill a fox? If the answer is yes, please tell me exactly what happened, I'm intrigued.
		
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No, it was just there for the scenery - it told me it like hooning round the countryside on the back of a bike in a box, and it looked forward to hunt season just so it could get out and about.
(Just to confirm, this is sarcasm. I feel I need to clarify as you are so clearly unable to read between the lines). 
hackneylass2, I know admitting you are wrong would mean handing yourself in as living in Cloud Cuckoo land, but it might be quite nice there...


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## chillipup (5 December 2015)

char3479 said:



			I'm interested in the idea that no-one hunts foxes in this country.  It is illegal to hunt foxes with dogs. But, let's face it, it still happens, but the kill isn't made by the dogs in order to get round the law.  The kill is made by an eagle owl, or a gun. And cubbing still happens.
To the people who say fox hunting doesn't happen in this country: do you really believe this? 
I'm genuinely trying to get my head around the fact that so many people I know who appear perfectly normal, and are huge animal lovers, manage to thoroughly enjoy hunting foxes.
		
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char3479 said:



			No, it was just there for the scenery - it told me it like hooning round the countryside on the back of a bike in a box, and it looked forward to hunt season just so it could get out and about.
(Just to confirm, this is sarcasm. I feel I need to clarify as you are so clearly unable to read between the lines). 
hackneylass2, I know admitting you are wrong would mean handing yourself in as living in Cloud Cuckoo land, but it might be quite nice there...
		
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Ahhh, now I get it char3479, thanks for clarifying both your above posts, it was your attempt at sarcasm.

So reading between your lines a-fresh, just so I'm clear, you don't believe the BOP is actually used to kill the fox, it's there for display purposes only and hunting with dogs still continues? -   No argument from me then. Perhaps for the benefit of others like me, who have difficulty reading between your lines, how about just saying it as you think? just a suggestion.


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## AdorableAlice (5 December 2015)

A sensible answer to the OP's question is.

Prepare your horse correctly to enable it to hunt safely.  Take an unfit horse and you will break it.  Choose the type of horse needed for the type of country you are intending to cross.  For instance a big moving warmblood will not suit moor or woodland hunting, likewise a native or stuffy cob will struggle to cross big jumping and galloping areas like Leicestershire.

Speak to the secretary and they will be more than happy to help you enjoy your day.


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## char3479 (5 December 2015)

chillipup said:



			Ahhh, now I get it char3479, thanks for clarifying both your above posts, it was your attempt at sarcasm.

So reading between your lines a-fresh, just so I'm clear, you don't believe the BOP is actually used to kill the fox, it's there for display purposes only and hunting with dogs still continues? -   No argument from me then. Perhaps for the benefit of others like me, who have difficulty reading between your lines, how about just saying it as you think? just a suggestion. 

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Nope. Wrong again. Congratulations on completely misinterpreting my original comment. Just to clarify: I know a hunt who uses an eagle owl to kill foxes.  I do hope that's simple enough for you and your clearly limited comprehension skills.
Apologies to the OP, I had no intention of distracting from the original post, but unfortunately some people just like to argue for the sake of it.  Mine was a genuine question originally. It has descended into a silly playground conversation through the utter stupidity of the comments regarding how genuine I was with my claim. I didn't come on here to argue with silly people. I was hoping to further my understanding of fox hunting. I should have known better than to expect a reasoned response.


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## chillipup (5 December 2015)

char3479 said:



			I'm interested in the idea that no-one hunts foxes in this country.  It is illegal to hunt foxes with dogs. But, let's face it, it still happens, but the kill isn't made by the dogs in order to get round the law.  The kill is made by an eagle owl, or a gun. And cubbing still happens.
To the people who say fox hunting doesn't happen in this country: do you really believe this? 
I'm genuinely trying to get my head around the fact that so many people I know who appear perfectly normal, and are huge animal lovers, manage to thoroughly enjoy hunting foxes.
		
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char3479 said:



			Nope. Wrong again. Congratulations on completely misinterpreting my original comment. Just to clarify: I know a hunt who uses an eagle owl to kill foxes.  I do hope that's simple enough for you and your clearly limited comprehension skills.
Apologies to the OP, I had no intention of distracting from the original post, but unfortunately some people just like to argue for the sake of it.  Mine was a genuine question originally. It has descended into a silly playground conversation through the utter stupidity of the comments regarding how genuine I was with my claim. I didn't come on here to argue with silly people. I was hoping to further my understanding of fox hunting. I should have known better than to expect a reasoned response.
		
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Just rude. I asked a legitimate question.


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## chillipup (5 December 2015)

Jade and Dolly, I spent a couple of hours hunting, but only from the comfort of my sofa. (far too decrepit to have a go myself, sadly)  Check out Youtube and especially vids from Pearson Eventing and Ledbury Headcam, really good footage, I thoroughly enjoyed it. It may give you some idea but obviously nothing like the real thing.


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## hackneylass2 (6 December 2015)

Chillipup, I agree that Char was rude too.   

Char, if my or Chillipup's comments were  'utterly stupid' why don't you clarify things and enlighten us with your knowledge?   Who was arguing anyway?  

It is my  PERSONAL SUPPOSITION  that it would be illogical to use an expensive trained BOP such as a Golden Eagle or and Eagle Owl to KILL  foxes, and I doubted that such a bird could kill a fox (in a foxhunting scenario) that's all.   Go on, stun us with your expertise!  tell us all about it - I am sure that a good few folks on here would love to know the definitive answer.


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## popsdosh (6 December 2015)

hackneylass2 said:



			Chillipup, I agree that Char was rude too.   

Char, if my or Chillipup's comments were  'utterly stupid' why don't you clarify things and enlighten us with your knowledge?   Who was arguing anyway?  

It is my  PERSONAL SUPPOSITION  that it would be illogical to use an expensive trained BOP such as a Golden Eagle or and Eagle Owl to KILL  foxes, and I doubted that such a bird could kill a fox (in a foxhunting scenario) that's all.   Go on, stun us with your expertise!  tell us all about it - I am sure that a good few folks on here would love to know the definitive answer.
		
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The Fitzwilliam has a golden eagle that indeed does kill foxes ,in fact the most spectacular was taking a fox in mid flight jumping a fence it is out every hunting day apart from when its feathers are moulting. You mess with it at your peril ! I think you are totally unaware of the strength and power of them. They have been used for years in Kazakhstan and Mongolia to control foxes.
Why is it illogical? you can use a full pack of hounds to flush the fox and  then make sure they back off before the Eagle is flown mainly for the hounds protection.


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## char3479 (6 December 2015)

chillipup said:



			Just rude. I asked a legitimate question.
		
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No, you were rude. Your question had been answered but you deliberately tried to antagonise. I've been a member of this forum for a while, but I've made the decision that people like you are not worth the time it takes to respond. I cannot bear the ignorance and arrogance displayed towards anyone who dares to have an opinion (or factual comments in my case); it seems that polite discussion cannot be had when there are people like you who chose to bitch. I appreciate I was sarcastic, but your comment deserved nothing more.  I made a clear statement initially. It didn't fit with you or Hackneylass' views so you chose to belittle my initial comment and now, when I defend myself with comments which equal yours in their sarcasm, I'm the one being rude. You didn't have the manners to respect my initial post, and you questioned my perfectly legitimate statement.  So before I really do get rude (and you two are clearly not in a position to judge manners) I will be leaving the forum.  Try to open your eyes to others' experiences rather than just antagonising people with whom you disagree.


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## popsdosh (6 December 2015)

char3479 said:



			No, you were rude. Your question had been answered but you deliberately tried to antagonise. I've been a member of this forum for a while, but I've made the decision that people like you are not worth the time it takes to respond. I cannot bear the ignorance and arrogance displayed towards anyone who dares to have an opinion (or factual comments in my case); it seems that polite discussion cannot be had when there are people like you who chose to bitch. I appreciate I was sarcastic, but your comment deserved nothing more.  I made a clear statement initially. It didn't fit with you or Hackneylass' views so you chose to belittle my initial comment and now, when I defend myself with comments which equal yours in their sarcasm, I'm the one being rude. You didn't have the manners to respect my initial post, and you questioned my perfectly legitimate statement.  So before I really do get rude (and you two are clearly not in a position to judge manners) I will be leaving the forum.  Try to open your eyes to others' experiences rather than just antagonising people with whom you disagree.
		
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Some dont wish to see past their own preconceived ideals.


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## Tiddlypom (6 December 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Some dont wish to see past their own preconceived ideals.
		
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Well, I for one was happy to be educated on how a bird of prey fits in with post ban hunting. All my hunting was done pre ban. I know that one local pack was intending to use a bird of prey (can't remember which species). A subscriber to a neighbouring pack dismissed it as the ***** pack's 'budgie' .

I thought that char3479's initial repsonses were tongue in cheek too, things can come across differently in writing cf face to face speech.


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## chillipup (6 December 2015)

My previous question to the other poster, was to clarify whether they had actually seen the Eagle Owl used by the hunt, kill a fox. I'm aware a Golden Eagle, can and most certainly will be able to take out a fox, I've no doubt about that having also seen it myself, and on occasions, young/small deer (albeit not seen it in this country) A Golden Eagle is often taken out on one of the local estates near me to hunt rabbits.

I was, honestly and genuinely, querying the use of an Eagle Owl having the same ability. Being a much lighter bird than a Golden Eagle, and a nocturnal predatory species, as opposed to the diurnal Golden Eagle. I wasn't aware of it's ability to take anything much bigger than an adult hare/rabbit. And would be truly surprised if it could take an adult fox and not be subject to serious harm itself in the process.

I have, in the past, been fortunate to be, up close and personal to many, both wild and captive bred, birds of prey and close to fledgling Eagle Owls. Although they were rather cute and fluffy at that stage (resembling something from the Muppet show) I would never have imagined them being quite able, even when fully grown, to kill an adult fox.

My knowledge of birds of prey is pretty limited. I obviously did not interpret the other poster's comments in the way they were meant, which is why I asked again for clarification. I was not seeking an argument at all, I just wanted to know if they'd seen this owl kill a fox. If it's used just to 'pretend' that it will and can kill, fair enough - I've no problem with that, what so ever. If it is able to actually kill the fox, I'm keen to know and interested in hearing the details. 

Interpreting someones comments can work both ways.

Apologies OP. Didn't set out to cause such a fuss.


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## popsdosh (6 December 2015)

To be fair an eagle owl is not at all likely to kill a fox they were used primarily to get around the ban.
There was nothing in the act that said the bird of prey had to be capable! A golden eagle is a totally different kettle of fish and needs somebody handling it who knows what their doing! They are not an ornament that looks pretty . There was some footage on you tube of the time the eagle caught the fox over the post and rail fence ,however it was deemed inappropriate and removed by you tube .


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## chillipup (6 December 2015)

popsdosh said:



			To be fair an eagle owl is not at all likely to kill a fox they were used primarily to get around the ban.
There was nothing in the act that said the bird of prey had to be capable! A golden eagle is a totally different kettle of fish and needs somebody handling it who knows what their doing! They are not an ornament that looks pretty . There was some footage on you tube of the time the eagle caught the fox over the post and rail fence ,however it was deemed inappropriate and removed by you tube .
		
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Thank you popsdosh for taking the trouble, and yes, a Golden Eagle, must be more than capable. I just couldn't imagine how or why an Eagle Owl would be used, at least I finally know now....heaves big sigh of relief... So I shall have to work on my posting skills and learn how to interpret better! plus try not to be so naive in future  

I'm surprised the Youtube vid of Golden Eagle v fox was taken down though, given that others are able to put the most horrendous, inappropriate clips up, (that no one in their right mind would ever wish to see) that are left on. Having learnt my lesson on that site, I don't click on anything that I'm not totally sure of now.

Thanks again, much appreciated.


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## Alec Swan (6 December 2015)

Eagles are regularly used on the Steppes for killing foxes,  but the lunacy of the Act is that being killed by hounds would be far more humane than by any bird of prey.  Those who I've accompanied whilst flying birds of prey at game,  have generally had the bird starting to eat its quarry whilst it's still alive.  I've seen Goshawks killing both hares and rabbits,  and generally it's the human who administers the coup de gras,  and only when they've arrived on the scene which can be after some while.  

Left to their own devices,  birds of prey take quite some while to kill what they've caught.  Conversely,  when the first hound takes hold of the fox then with the following hounds being immediately behind then its end comes in seconds.

However well intentioned the Hunting Act may (possibly) have been,  our vulpine population have been dealt a grave disservice.  I'm also left wondering how it can be right that man is prevented from hunting foxes with dogs but it's ok to use birds of prey.  Perhaps falconry is seen as a sport of the proletariat,  and so it's acceptable!

Alec.


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## Irish gal (6 December 2015)

This thread has evolved now into a bird of prey thing but getting back to the OP's first question - please don't worry your head for a second about a horse being cut with thorns or what awful accident could happen. The simple truth is that there is nothing that a horse likes better than going hunting. It's like horse Nirvana.

Think about it. Horses are herd animals, now they get to cross country in a herd, with lots of excitement, all sorts of fences. It's pure addiction for a horse and once a convert - that's it.

My last great horse was a TB I bought to go hunting. He was destined for racing and a lot of people thought I was mad to buy an unbroken TB for hunting. Well he gave me the best runs and thrills of my life. Quiet by nature, he took to hunting like a duck to water. On his first outings his ears nearly crossed over in excitement and joy. He did put in a bit of rearing but all newbies will do that - he just couldn't wait to get on with the job!

There was nothing he would not jump and he was a pure pleasure for me as a rider - it was the closest I'll ever get to riding a race. There is nothing like hunting a good TB. Any way, later on this poor lad sustained a stress fracture to a back leg while in training for point to pointing.

His only hope was that the bones might knit while standing basically still in the stable - standard treatment. My big worry was that the hunt would pass anywhere nearby and he would hear that hunting horn and dance in the stable thus completely messing up the leg.

That's how much he loved it. I often think we are getting very far removed from what the horse really enjoys: so many are in livery with very little turnout ect. The closer we can get to the natural state of horses the more they like it. And hunting is a very natural state for them. I can tell you now, your horse would rather be torn by thorns then not allowed to go hunting. So if you want to help/broaden your horse's experience there's nothing better that you can do for him than take him hunting.


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## hackneylass2 (9 December 2015)

Ah, nice to see that my opinion was not too far from the truth Popsdosh.  I spoke with a member of the local shoot who's brother is a keen falconer and the opinion was that Eagle Owls are too unpredictable (actually, he said they were tw*ts) and whilst a Golden Eagle was capable of killing a fox it was not best practice to expose the bird to such danger.  In his opinion the birds were primarily used as figureheads to get around the ban.  

He also said that a BOP in a box on a quadbike offroad would likely suffer feather damage or worse and he would never condone doing this with any BOP.  He also said that you would need a very experienced handler to cope with a Golden Eagle or Eagle Owl.

So, I have my answer, from a no-nonsense guy who has hunted for decades.  His last words to me were that the general public will believe anything if they are not directly involved.  Ah, the majority are just as hooded as the birds of prey then  

As for falconry being percieved as a sport for the proletariat,  Alec, come on!  Crap like that only reinforces the toffs v townies hunting argument.   I know a lot of proles (if you define proles as those who have to work for a wage) who hunt, indeed, they vastly outnumber those who do not have to work to make a living.  As to Falconers, I don't know of any, but I would guess that they come from most walks of life too. The guy I spoke to is a farmer, his falconer brother has a car dealership.


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## popsdosh (9 December 2015)

hackneylass2 said:



			Ah, nice to see that my opinion was not too far from the truth Popsdosh.  I spoke with a member of the local shoot who's brother is a keen falconer and the opinion was that Eagle Owls are too unpredictable (actually, he said they were tw*ts) and whilst a Golden Eagle was capable of killing a fox it was not best practice to expose the bird to such danger.  In his opinion the birds were primarily used as figureheads to get around the ban.  

He also said that a BOP in a box on a quadbike offroad would likely suffer feather damage or worse and he would never condone doing this with any BOP.  He also said that you would need a very experienced handler to cope with a Golden Eagle or Eagle Owl.

So, I have my answer, from a no-nonsense guy who has hunted for decades.  His last words to me were that the general public will believe anything if they are not directly involved.  Ah, the majority are just as hooded as the birds of prey then  

As for falconry being percieved as a sport for the proletariat,  Alec, come on!  Crap like that only reinforces the toffs v townies hunting argument.   I know a lot of proles (if you define proles as those who have to work for a wage) who hunt, indeed, they vastly outnumber those who do not have to work to make a living.  As to Falconers, I don't know of any, but I would guess that they come from most walks of life too. The guy I spoke to is a farmer, his falconer brother has a car dealership.
		
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Perhaps your keen falconer friend needs enlightening and should spend a day with the Fitz . They employ a full time Falconer who indeed carries the eagle around in a box on a quad and its fine! Whats more they risk it and it kills foxes!!!, it had one close escape when younger but funnily enough that sharpened it up a little.


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## Alec Swan (9 December 2015)

hackneylass2 said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. .  As to Falconers, I don't know of any, but I would guess that they come from most walks of life too. The guy I spoke to is a farmer, his falconer brother has a car dealership.
		
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I suspect that you may well have missed my point! 

Alec.


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## popsdosh (9 December 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			I suspect that you may well have missed my point! 

Alec.
		
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Im shocked!


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## applecart14 (14 December 2015)

Jade and Dolly said:



			I have heard loads of people talk about how fun Foxhunting is and i really wanted to give it a go with my horse!

However I've been told by my mums close friend not to go as they don't care about the horses and it's the most dangerous thing , as horses are always breaking legs and getting damaged! And the horse get there hooves stuck down rabbit holes and torn apart by thorns, I understand it's very dangerous and it's more dangerous than  eventing! 

But how dangerous is it truthly for the horse and rider like do horses break damage legs often?!

Any advice and views will be really appreciated!
		
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I have never been hunting, but on your insurance policy you may have to pay a more expensive premium if you go hunting.  That speaks for itself. Its my understanding that when an inexperienced horse gets the adrenalin flowing through him with the other horses galloping and jumping next to him, there is every chance that he might tackle something he is not confident with, and could have an accident as a result.  No matter what you do with horses, from schooling at home, to hacking on the roads, there is always an element of risk.  But hunting is another kettle of fish altogether.

This is my understanding of the situation and I might be totally wrong, like I say I have never hunted before.  Personally, I would not risk my horse hunting, anymore than I would risk him going round a team chase, or entering anything XC over 90cm/1m in height for the fear he would hurt himself.


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## Alec Swan (14 December 2015)

Jade and Dolly said:



			..

However I've been told by my mums close friend not to go as they don't care about the horses and it's the most dangerous thing , as horses are always breaking legs and getting damaged! And the horse get there hooves stuck down rabbit holes and torn apart by thorns, I understand it's very dangerous and it's more dangerous than  eventing! 

But how dangerous is it truthly for the horse and rider like do horses break damage legs often?!

..
		
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To return to the opening post;  Of course there are accidents in the Hunting field,  just as there are road traffic accidents involving cars,  but proportionally I would imagine that there are far more 'field accidents' with horses turned out,  than there are whilst Hunting.  Most accidents are through rider error when horses are over-faced with a jump,  and the cautious rider is safer out Hunting than hacking on a public road.  In essence,  your mum's best friend is talking alarmist twaddle!

I'm sorry for the delay in responding,  but if you were to ask for help and guidance from someone present who is experienced,  I'm sure that you will be safe.  I hope that you enjoy your day,  should you go.  If you pluck up the courage,  will you come back and give us a report?  It's almost compulsory! 

Alec.


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