# Highland x TB as a hunter - yr thoughts please



## turnbuckle (21 May 2016)

Have always had an idea that the right HighlandxTB would make a cracking hunter - quality leavened with soundness and common sense!

I'm 6ft and ride 15st, so clearly would need a little height in the end result.

Thoughts and experiences all v welcome....


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 May 2016)

a modern Clydesdale, ,  [you need 16.00 hh+not 15.00 hh], or a mature Cleveland Bay or pm janetgeorge


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## be positive (21 May 2016)

It is unlikely to be big enough as a first cross, I had one at livery that was 14.2 he had the limbs of the tb and the body of the Highland, not as bad as it sounds but he was no weight carrier, a Cleveland as suggested above would be an excellent choice, a rare breed that needs supporting.


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## spacefaer (21 May 2016)

I used to teach a Highland x Arab - wasn't a good cross. It was as sharp as an Arab and as stubborn as a Highland. Looked like a Highland too - he was dun, about 15.1 and lazy as all get out. (except when he was napping, spinning and rearing)

I can't see it working as a first cross, but then what would you put it back to? Back to a Highland, you'd reinforce the stockiness, but not get any taller, back to a TB, you'd lose the bone.....

As with all mongrels/cross breeds, it would be hard to predict the outcome.  I can't imagine you would get the height to carry you  - a pure Highland would carry you - my OH has put more weight than that in stags on his working Highlands, but I bet you'd feel too tall.

Depends how much quality you want, with the weight carrying ability - I would go down the Cleveland Bay, RID route - or stick some cold blood in there, and go down the Shire or Clydesdale route (although you can get height without bone, and Shire crosses IME can be quite stressy)


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## Maesfen (21 May 2016)

As reasons stated.  I'd go for a proper ID x TB, bone and substance with quality.  Talking about stubbornness, a CB is up with a Highland for that any day.


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## spacefaer (21 May 2016)

Maesfen said:



			As reasons stated.  I'd go for a proper ID x TB, bone and substance with quality.  Talking about stubbornness, a CB is up with a Highland for that any day.
		
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Maesfen - I was trying not to insult a much revered rare breed, but sometimes things are rare for a reason...... the only CBs I have met have been very light in front and so backwards in coming forward, that they needed to turn up for a lesson the day before.  

They produce fabulous in hand youngsters though, for hunter showing......


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## Maesfen (21 May 2016)

Lol, totally agree with you.  
TBF to them,they need work, a bit like collies and spaniels; if they have a proper job to do they can be delightful if it suits them.  The ones I've known have been what we call - noggin headed and that's what colours my judgement; I'm sure there must be wonderful ones out there, the same as there must be some nice Shetlands.............somewhere!


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## turnbuckle (21 May 2016)

All makes sense, and explains why you don't see many. Still, one day when I'm rich and idle it would be fun to try and prove everyone wrong!

Mind you that's from the man who thought about bringing Mongolian ponies over as crossing stock. Not my brightest. Luckily didn't get past the planning stage 

Still think they might sweep the board at mounted games though!


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## AdorableAlice (21 May 2016)

My first thoughts would be 'why' would anyone want to breed such a thing.  Welsh D x TB used to be a popular  for riding club all rounders, not popular now probably due to the bigger Section D stallions no longer being around.  In my youth there were plenty of of them and many were really useful and successful small horses.

For 15 stone and 6' an ID would be ideal.  A ready made one will command a good price.  I would not touch another CB, I had one as a teenager and it could argue with itself.

How about a clipped out one of these OP ?  When mature he will carry 16 + stone.  Irish Cob on a Shire, sharp and forwards but eventually will be a nice horse.


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## MotherOfChickens (21 May 2016)

I don't breed but have seen several Highland x Tbs and Highlands x Arabs and liked none of them-either as mentioned you get Highland body on TB legs or Arab/TB front or backend with the Highland on the other. None have been very big. I seem to remember someone on here though who had one that was rather nice but that was ages ago. 

An overheight Highland would probably do you-depends how long in the torso you are and if you like 'em wide or not! Rather that than a CB anything (sorry CB fans). Highlands can be quite sharp btw..


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 May 2016)

In defence of CBs, I owned and hunted a Mulgrave Supreme, he did nothing wrong ....


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## Hepsibah (21 May 2016)

People who want a compliant, easy to ride horse don't like Cleveland Bays IME. CBs have minds of their own and don't like to be bored going round and round in pointless, endless circles. They are loyal and love their people, would jump off a cliff for their rider if asked to but are perfectly willing to stand still while someone they don't know or like is ineffectually flapping around on their back. 
They are fantastic heavyweight hunters and excell on the hunting field. They're brave, sensible and reliable. They are also an excellent first cross as competition horses and a second cross at international level competition. They just don't suffer fools gladly, or at all....


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## hayinamanger (21 May 2016)

I bred one 25 years ago, seemed like a good idea at the time.  

He was out of a stonking 14.2 Highland, by a 17.2 son of Sir Ivor.  Grew to about 15.1, looked quite nice, wasn't strong enough for hunting and was a little git.

Look for an ID or Clydesdale type.


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## KSR (21 May 2016)

Hepsibah said:



			People who want a compliant, easy to ride horse don't like Cleveland Bays IME. CBs have minds of their own and don't like to be bored going round and round in pointless, endless circles. They are loyal and love their people, would jump off a cliff for their rider if asked to but are perfectly willing to stand still while someone they don't know or like is ineffectually flapping around on their back. 
They are fantastic heavyweight hunters and excell on the hunting field. They're brave, sensible and reliable. They are also an excellent first cross as competition horses and a second cross at international level competition. They just don't suffer fools gladly, or at all....
		
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Exactly this.

Owner of four, and other warmblood breeds. 

Pure and part bred alike have been used to create and improve the lines of many competition lines, and several big names are out there right now, achieving high standards and achievements in various spheres of work.


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## Pipkin (21 May 2016)

Hepsibah said:



			People who want a compliant, easy to ride horse don't like Cleveland Bays IME. CBs have minds of their own and don't like to be bored going round and round in pointless, endless circles. They are loyal and love their people, would jump off a cliff for their rider if asked to but are perfectly willing to stand still while someone they don't know or like is ineffectually flapping around on their back. 
They are fantastic heavyweight hunters and excell on the hunting field. They're brave, sensible and reliable. They are also an excellent first cross as competition horses and a second cross at international level competition. They just don't suffer fools gladly, or at all....
		
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Exactly this!
Had my CB for 7 years and you will not find a more brave and loyal horse. shes by far the easiest I own and have ever owned. Don't get me wrong she took a bit of getting used to but I would buy another in a heart beat. 
They can be opinionated with people who confuse them.


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## ihatework (21 May 2016)

Someone I knew as a teenager had a super Highland x Anglo, it was the envy of everyone at pony club. That said it was only 15hh and far to light a type for a big bloke!

Go for a good quality draft x TB.


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## Goldenstar (21 May 2016)

You can't beat a good ID as a substantial hunter .
I not even really a huge fan of the ID/ TB I can never work out why you would not have either a lovely NH type of TB to do the job or an RID ( Height to suit you ).
The ultimate hunter for a rider is a TB they have the full package .For someone working all week who needs a pal to take them out to hounds you simply can't beat the purpose trained RID .
I have two RID.
Fatty is the nearest thing to a black leather sofa you will ever hunt he's a remarkable horse he knows more about hunting than any of us and I could fill pages with amusing tales about him .
His best attribute Irish draught auto correct which is engaged when the rider has more than three drinks it's pause after landing to check the rider is there followed by hitch to centre the rider if Fatty considers it necessary.
H takes a bit more riding ( of course he's half Fatties age ) he has enough about him to field master. He one of those horses who adjusts his behaviour according to who is riding him and goes very well for Fit young friend out in front and then next time out copes with MRGS's loose rein you sort it horse method of riding.
He arrived an angry nervous horse with a serious bronc I am very proud of how he's taken his opportunity for change .
Having said of all this I do think ID's are usually to wide for all but the tallest ladies to hunt. My favourite hunter was an Anglo Arab I had as a teenager and I had an epic 7/8 bred TB with splash of Connie who I still miss twenty years after I lost her .


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## Celyn (22 May 2016)

I can't believe the negative comments I'm reading towards the CB's! 
How many have you against them actually had or dealt with.
I myself have had nearly a grand total of 40 pure and part breds (combined) and none have been stubborn or backwards. In fact they have to be one of the easiet and most loyal breeds I have come across (and I have plenty of ish, warmbloods and Welsh ponies in my yard). And no matter what they seem to be crossed with they still seem to make an incredibly versitile animal.
Just look at some that are out there, winning hunter hoys qualifiers, psg level dressage and some crosses have completed badminton. There's a lot to be said for the Cleveland Bay , they are certainly not to be overlooked. 

And to the OP I think a highland x tb could make a great hunter however I'm not sure you'd get the height required.


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## turnbuckle (22 May 2016)

Goldenstar, can I please send my lovely, mainly-blood ISH to Fatty for some lessons?

On second thoughts, I'm not sure we'd get very far...


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## Clodagh (22 May 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			You can't beat a good ID as a substantial hunter .
I not even really a huge fan of the ID/ TB I can never work out why you would not have either a lovely NH type of TB to do the job or an RID ( Height to suit you ).
The ultimate hunter for a rider is a TB they have the full package .For someone working all week who needs a pal to take them out to hounds you simply can't beat the purpose trained RID .
I have two RID.
Fatty is the nearest thing to a black leather sofa you will ever hunt he's a remarkable horse he knows more about hunting than any of us and I could fill pages with amusing tales about him .
His best attribute Irish draught auto correct which is engaged when the rider has more than three drinks it's pause after landing to check the rider is there followed by hitch to centre the rider if Fatty considers it necessary.
 .
		
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I agree with your post. On another point, my son had a welsh B pony who he hunted and did XC on, he never shortened the reins so he had any contact but that pony could do it by herself. She really did hitch the shoulder to keep him on if he was going out the side door, a rare and precious commodity.

I have known one CB and he was an excellent hunter. didn't do circles though, spent his whole time thinking out better ways to keep entertained.
I think anything Irish bred (not this new silly Irish warmblood stuff but a proper ID or ID x )tends to be a fantastic horse.


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## spacefaer (22 May 2016)

KSR said:



			Exactly this.

Owner of four, and other warmblood breeds. 

Pure and part bred alike have been used to create and improve the lines of many competition lines, and several big names are out there right now, achieving high standards and achievements in various spheres of work.
		
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I stand to be corrected - I can only speak as I find, and the ridden CBs I have met have clearly not done the breed any favours.

KSR and Celyn - can you tell us who the successful ones are, please, as they are obviously not advertising their breeding?


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## Maesfen (22 May 2016)

spacefaer said:



			I stand to be corrected - I can only speak as I find, and the ridden CBs I have met have clearly not done the breed any favours.
		
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Ditto this and also the ones I've known on the ground.  Without doubt the strongest, stubbornest, most property damaging beasts I've ever known; will walk through walls to get where they want.


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## Clodagh (22 May 2016)

Maesfen said:



			Ditto this and also the ones I've known on the ground.  Without doubt the strongest, stubbornest, most property damaging beasts I've ever known; will walk through walls to get where they want.
		
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I suppose at the end of the day they were bred to be cart horses and stubborn is probably a plus for that. I hope Rollin doesn't see this thread!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 May 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I suppose at the end of the day they were bred to be cart horses and stubborn is probably a plus for that. I hope Rollin doesn't see this thread!
		
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Cart horses .......... NO, BRED BE CARRIAGE HORSES, GET YOUR FACS RIGHT.


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## AdorableAlice (22 May 2016)

Bonkers2 said:



			Cart horses .......... NO, BRED BE CARRIAGE HORSES, GET YOUR FACS RIGHT.
		
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Perhaps that fact indicates why they are now, very sadly, on the rare breed list.  Together with the fact that top end four in hand teams are warmbloods with paces that score well in the dressage phase, have scope to gallop and are more athletic.  You only have to look at the teams the Bowmans drive to see that a CB would not have a hope in hell of competing against them.

As a riding horse the CB unless crossed with a TB would not have the speed and scope to event beyond the lower levels, his paces are correct but not special, his look is plain and often coarse through the head.  

I don't think they fell out of favour as such, more a case of other breeds improving and becoming more useful than a CB.  The one I had in my youth was nice enough and his outlook improved as he aged, but he was never generous and never 'took' me, far more of a 'make me' type of horse.  He was also bone idle and paid the price of idleness by turning over out hunting, thankfully he threw me clear but he paid the ultimate price for being careless.

There used to be a splash of CB in some show hunters but not now.  There is always a reason why a breed or type of any animal does not thrive be it habitat, predators or usefulness.    Sadly for the CB, the Suffolk and the Hackney things are not looking good.


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## Clodagh (22 May 2016)

Bonkers2 said:



			Cart horses .......... NO, BRED BE CARRIAGE HORSES, GET YOUR FACS RIGHT.
		
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Be calm! Was sort of a joke, and a cart is much like a carriage.


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## PorkChop (22 May 2016)

Maesfen said:



			Ditto this and also the ones I've known on the ground.  Without doubt the strongest, stubbornest, most property damaging beasts I've ever known; will walk through walls to get where they want.
		
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Got to agree with this - though I have only had one, but would never have another!


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## turnbuckle (22 May 2016)

Feeling rather guilty, this seems to have turned into a we-don't-care-if-CBs-become-extinct thread! Tempted to go and buy one to prove everyone wrong, just for the hell of it


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## PorkChop (22 May 2016)

turnbuckle said:



			Feeling rather guilty, this seems to have turned into a we-don't-care-if-CBs-become-extinct thread! Tempted to go and buy one to prove everyone wrong, just for the hell of it 

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Rather you than me


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## ester (22 May 2016)

I don't ever understand why we worry so much about breeds becoming extinct. If they were useful enough they wouldn't  and they are't an entire species just a human manufactured breed. 

And no, you don't see many CBs at driving trials, can't actually think of any. The nicest team are arabx friesians  and none of the warmbloods used are crazy either, well normal enough to stand in stalls just chilling in between phases.


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## Zuzan (22 May 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Perhaps that fact indicates why they are now, very sadly, on the rare breed list.  Together with the fact that top end four in hand teams are warmbloods with paces that score well in the dressage phase, have scope to gallop and are more athletic.  You only have to look at the teams the Bowmans drive to see that a CB would not have a hope in hell of competing against them.

As a riding horse the CB unless crossed with a TB would not have the speed and scope to event beyond the lower levels, his paces are correct but not special, his look is plain and often coarse through the head.  

I don't think they fell out of favour as such, more a case of other breeds improving and becoming more useful than a CB.  The one I had in my youth was nice enough and his outlook improved as he aged, but he was never generous and never 'took' me, far more of a 'make me' type of horse.  He was also bone idle and paid the price of idleness by turning over out hunting, thankfully he threw me clear but he paid the ultimate price for being careless.

There used to be a splash of CB in some show hunters but not now.  There is always a reason why a breed or type of any animal does not thrive be it habitat, predators or usefulness.    Sadly for the CB, the Suffolk and the Hackney things are not looking good.
		
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Quite simply the reason they are out of favour is that they require excellent horsemanship and are not "push button" horses..  Which is a bit sad.. it isn't, in my opinion, a failing of the breed more a failing of modern horsemanship.


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## AdorableAlice (22 May 2016)

Zuzan said:



			Quite simply the reason they are out of favour is that they require excellent horsemanship and are not "push button" horses..  Which is a bit sad.. it isn't, in my opinion, a failing of the breed more a failing of modern horsemanship.
		
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The UK has some of the best riders in the world in all disciplines.  They don't ride CB's.  Tell me why they don't.


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## spacefaer (22 May 2016)

I think the CB is a stunning looking horse, and as a partbred, has its uses. However the breed in its original conception, falls between many stools nowadays and is no longer fit for purpose, so far as I can see.

Take the ID for example of a popular breed - the draughts of the 1970s were in the main, jugheaded opinionated thugs, which were still quite close to the "draught" history of the breed.  The Irish looked at the breed, looked at the market, and modernised the breed, to make it the attractive, sporty, rideable, trainable breed it is today.  If you get a ID with "old" bloodlines, outcrosses, or "throwbacks" even now, you will discover quite how stubborn and opinionated even today's draughts can be.

It isn't possible to "improve" the CB, being (as I understand it) a closed stud book, and the breed society itself strongly resists making the breed a commercial proposition.  If they continue down this route, the breed will become extinct as the demands of modern competition have moved past what the CB can offer.

I am still waiting for the competition successes of modern CBs to be listed........

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news...od-divides-cleveland-bay-horse-society-314859


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## spacefaer (22 May 2016)

Zuzan said:



			Quite simply the reason they are out of favour is that they require excellent horsemanship and are not "push button" horses..  Which is a bit sad.. it isn't, in my opinion, a failing of the breed more a failing of modern horsemanship.
		
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Define excellent horsemanship vs, say Michael Jung, Michael Eilberg, Michael Whitaker - I don't think they start off with "push button" horses? I think they pick the horses that will produce the goods for them, and sadly, it's not the CB, or even a part bred CB.


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## Zuzan (22 May 2016)

spacefaer said:



			Define excellent horsemanship vs, say Michael Jung, Michael Eilberg, Michael Whitaker - I don't think they start off with "push button" horses? I think they pick the horses that will produce the goods for them, and sadly, it's not the CB, or even a part bred CB.
		
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Well for a start I have seen Michael Jung rollkur / LDR Sam .. in Show jumping ring Europeans at Fontainbleu...  Sorry to disabuse of your perception of excellent horsemanship but those who use rollkur etc aren't in my book excellent horseman.. whilst they may still be effective and winners competitively given the current standards of judging FEI rules and lack of enforcement of them I hardly rate competitve success as proof of excellent horsemanship...

 which doesnt mean I think all competive horsemen / women aren't excellent horsepeople


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## spacefaer (22 May 2016)

And still no evidence of successful CBs or part bred CBs in the modern day .........


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## Tetrarch 1911 (22 May 2016)

... and just because they are not in fashion at present doesn't mean that at some point in the future the CB may become popular once more. I've known a few and to a horse they have been kind, able and sensible. Genetically they probably have a lot to offer - and I'll be happy to bide my time and see what happens with a breed that I have a soft spot for. 

Personally I have no time for warmbloods - I've seen too many of the neurotic sorts with suspect joints (I owned a couple, and wasn't too impressed) that don't have longevity in the competing world, but hey - I'm not one to judge. We all have our foibles, likes and dislikes, and just because the CB isn't in vogue at the moment doesn't mean they don't have a place in the world. 

By the way ... I thought we were discussing the idea of a Highland x TB? I love both breeds, but as a hunter you can't beat a TB, and you do get the type that could take 15 stone. But I also agree that the ID has the welly to go all day over all terrains and carry their rider safely. Gotta go with that! 



spacefaer said:



			And still no evidence of successful CBs or part bred CBs in the modern day .........
		
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## Goldenstar (23 May 2016)

I am sure Cleveland bays where very good carriage horses when the wealthy needed four smart looking matching horses to pull a coach between two places .
But what's their job today ?
They are not out and about excelling at driving trials which you would think would be their natural home .
We do have the some of the best riders in the world if CB's where so great they would be riding them .
I am always amused by the sort of feeling you get that some people think there's some sort of conspiracy against CB's.
The reason the ID is popular and CB is not is very simple the ID was developed from the start as a multipurpose horse and CB was not the CB was developed to be bay and pull a coach .
The ID has a job in modern world.


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## ester (23 May 2016)

How long do we wait for them to be popular again, while bewailing their demise in popularity in the meantime . I think there are probably more ridden clydies that CBs about! I guess someone could invent a job for them to do, like people who invent new sports and are then the best at them


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## ihatework (23 May 2016)

ester said:



			How long do we wait for them to be popular again, while bewailing their demise in popularity in the meantime . I think there are probably more ridden clydies that CBs about! I guess someone could invent a job for them to do, like people who invent new sports and are then the best at them  

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If we are not careful BD will introduce a Cleveland bay championship!!
Said tongue in cheek btw.

I agree with the use of CB as sports horses, why would you? However I'm also pleased that there are people in this country who are in their side and trying to preserve the breed - it would be a shame to loose them, even if they are just well loved pets for the most part


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## Hepsibah (23 May 2016)

I'm not terribly up on modern competition TBH - the most recent I really know of myself is Harvey Smith who favoured partbreds such as Madison Time. 






 

I believe Spring Pascal is doing quite well in dressage.








 Prince Phillip drove a team of PBCBs, Boyd Exell has a PBCB in his indoor team. Oathill Take The Biscuit (commonly known as Hovis) is a successful PB show hunter.








 William Tell PB HWH qualified for HOYs and last but not least the Royal carriage horses. 

There will be many more out there who are not advertising themselves as a quarter Cleveland or an eighth Cleveland or whatever. For some reason, people are prejudiced against them so they are called tbx by their owners instead.


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## ester (23 May 2016)

See I do struggle to see the point of them if they are only useful in part bred form.


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## Hepsibah (23 May 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			I am sure Cleveland bays where very good carriage horses when the wealthy needed four smart looking matching horses to pull a coach between two places .
But what's their job today ?
They are not out and about excelling at driving trials which you would think would be their natural home .
We do have the some of the best riders in the world if CB's where so great they would be riding them .
I am always amused by the sort of feeling you get that some people think there's some sort of conspiracy against CB's.
The reason the ID is popular and CB is not is very simple the ID was developed from the start as a multipurpose horse and CB was not the CB was developed to be bay and pull a coach .
The ID has a job in modern world.
		
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The ID has had much better advertising. They're also common unlike CBs. Otherwise they're very similar. They were bred as draft horses, to have a varied role in the household. They could pull a plough, drive the family to church and take a man hunting.


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## Hepsibah (23 May 2016)

The majority of people are not competitors. They don't need a performance horse. They need a sensible, reliable horse to take them hunting or out hacking, riding club, local shows etc. Their horses are still useful, even though they aren't out competing.


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## AdorableAlice (23 May 2016)

Hepsibah said:



			The majority of people are not competitors. They don't need a performance horse. They need a sensible, reliable horse to take them hunting or out hacking, riding club, local shows etc. Their horses are still useful, even though they aren't out competing.
		
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Very true and if the CB fitted the bill they would not be as rare as they are now because they would be doing that crucial job as a useful allrounder.


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## ester (23 May 2016)

Absolutely, but pure CBs aren't filling the requirements of a leisure rider either, mostly because I presume as we have been told earlier in this thread most of us wouldn't be good enough to ride them.


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## Goldenstar (23 May 2016)

Hepsibah said:



			The ID has had much better advertising. They're also common unlike CBs. Otherwise they're very similar. They were bred as draft horses, to have a varied role in the household. They could pull a plough, drive the family to church and take a man hunting.
		
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What do you really mean by common has substance ? 
Has a built in calm temperament ? is proven to be versatile ?
The biggest issue the CB has it's dangerously limited gene pool for that reason alone I would not have one .
I actually think common is the wrong word of Cb's they are coach horses and they look like coach horses although some have coarse heads .
I have been thinking about why I dislike them and I do know them one of my first bosses was from Cleveland country and had a few over the years .
I have never met one with a sense of humour something you can't ever say about a ID .
I did know a lovely part bred ,very successful horse he was a sweetie but even that would not tempt me to buy now


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## ester (23 May 2016)

I thought by common hepsibah meant numerous.


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## Hepsibah (23 May 2016)

ester said:



			I thought by common hepsibah meant numerous.
		
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Yes, I meant easy to get because there are plenty of them. 
I agree the gene pool is getting smaller and I think it's a shame the CBHS won't allow any new blood to be introduced to the breed but they are adamant the breed is to be preserved rather than conserved so we are a bit stuck.
I also wouldn't say most riders aren't good enough for them but I would say that riders need to think "pony" rather than "horse" to be able to enjoy them. Those who do enjoy them really, really enjoy them  and for those people it would be a great shame if they were put off by the usual prejudice as seen on this forum and dismissed the idea of a Cleveland Bay without ever getting to know one.


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## JFTDWS (23 May 2016)

The CB x highlands they breed up in the highlands are some fine looking animals, who seem quite popular in their own little niche.  I wouldn't turn my nose up at one if I were looking for something bigger as an all-rounder.

Wouldn't have pure CB myself, but that's just a laziness towards larger horses more than anything.


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## Rollin (23 May 2016)

Maesfen said:



			As reasons stated.  I'd go for a proper ID x TB, bone and substance with quality.  Talking about stubbornness, a CB is up with a Highland for that any day.
		
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I have (just counting) 6 pure bred and two part bred Cleveland Bays I have never recognised this description.

Ormiston Highlands on Speyside stood a CB stallion for years, the owner adored him and produced some smart and useful hunters by putting him to Highland Mares.


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## Rollin (23 May 2016)

spacefaer said:



			And still no evidence of successful CBs or part bred CBs in the modern day .........
		
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Top performing horse on the UK junior dressage team for many years has been Spring Pascall, part-bred CB.  John o Gaunt won Burleigh, Lord Fairfax sired two Olympic Show jumpers but the answer from British breeders is 'that was a long time ago'.  So was Milton, so was Stroller, so was Red Rum but when H&H asked readers to nominate their all time favourite horses, these three names appeared.  Arun Tor and Powder Monkey were top class international dressage horses, as is the Dutch bred stallion Ravel, grandson of the CB stallion Manningford Hermes exported to Holland to 'improve' young stock in a state run stud.  The Dutch knew were to shop for the best.

When I started looking for a Shagya stallion no one in the UK had ever heard of one.  So we went off to Hungary to the National Stud at Babolna and were told that an Olympic SJ in the UK had Shagya bloodlines.  I contacted BS who could tell me nothing of this horse.  We purchased this farm in France from a couple who bred AA show jumpers, when I said "Shagya Arab"  the wife replied "Aston Answer".  Aston Answer was a Grand Prix SJ in her own right, grand daughter of the stallion BASA, Shagya-XII-3(HU), who stood in the UK in 1930's.  Aston Answer bred a foal called MILTON.  Ramiro-Z was the grandson of the Anglo-Shagya Arab stallion Ramzes, at theWEG in Achen and Kentucky, 45% of the horses competing had Ramzes in their pedigree - but as you all know as well as CB's being stubborn, Arabs don't jump do they?

My point is that because a breed is 'rare' it does not mean it lacks utility.  Nor should people continue to brand the CB as a harness horse.  

Just to finish my Shagya stallion jumped big fences at Angers on saturday, most of the 40 horses in the class were SF with 1,000's euros of prize money.  Our boy did not start jumping till he had completed 3 x90km endurance.  Our rider is a well known SJ and after our little chaps amazing display, he was asked "What breed of horse were you riding?"  Next year I hope they will be asking the same questions of a talented CB also home bred.

To finish my 'rant' the fact that so many people on this forum know nothing of my two rare breeds does not worry me one bit.  A Dutch man who recognised by BEF for services to British Breeding has often said, the British are buying back what they exported to Europe!!


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## Tetrarch 1911 (24 May 2016)

Well said, Rollin ... well said ... and as for 'improving' the CB - what on earth would you 'improve' them with? Warmbloods? I think not. There is a place for them in today's equine world. I mean ... what about the Friesian with its upright shoulder and hairy ankles? Draught horses used by undertakers. Yet very popular, and they have a very solid fan base in the horsey world. That's fine by me, and nobody is suggesting they are 'improved' to make them more useful. 

The purity of the CB will, in the long run, be its strength. They were bred for stamina and durability. Good coach horses that could stand up to a long working day, not only as posh four-in-hands for the wealthy, but as workaday horses that were teams in coaches running from Lands' End to John O'Groats. Look at any advert for horse auctions at Tattersalls in the 19th century, and you will find sturdy coach horses that had plenty of work left in them and stood up to the pressure of making a living for their owners. These are talents that will in time bring the CB back, given the opportunity. I would say it is more fashion than lack of talent that is harming the CB. They have been the 'improvers', not the reverse.

And I'm a big fan of Shagyas, Rollin. Well done with your little fellow, and it's lovely to see him do so well among the fashionable SFs.


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## minesadouble (24 May 2016)

Bonkers2 said:



			In defence of CBs, I owned and hunted a Mulgrave Supreme, he did nothing wrong ....
		
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OMG Bonkers2 - are you telling us in a roundabout way that you are The Queen??


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## ester (24 May 2016)

Improvement more means not restricting yourself to such a genetically small pool that at some point genetic predisposition to issues will become a problem. 

I would argue that friesians have been improved, they have certainly split into baroque and more sporty type, same as IDs


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## Clodagh (24 May 2016)

Tetrarch 1911 said:



			Well said, Rollin ... well said ... and as for 'improving' the CB - what on earth would you 'improve' them with? Warmbloods? I think not. There is a place for them in today's equine world. I mean ... what about the Friesian with its upright shoulder and hairy ankles? Draught horses used by undertakers. Yet very popular, and they have a very solid fan base in the horsey world. That's fine by me, and nobody is suggesting they are 'improved' to make them more useful. 
.
		
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TBH Freisians are a dreadful ridden horse, they really are cart horses. CBs have a place and I do hope that as a rare breed they can continue, it is worth rare breeds being bred or we will all end up with an amorphous 'warmblood'. I wouldn't want one, but I would much rather have one than a freisian! 
Shagyas are different, IMO, as they are more like the original and unimproved arab, they are strong athletic and durable, whereas the little sea horse in hand weeds are the 'improved' version.


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## MotherOfChickens (24 May 2016)

I am feeling guilty about my comment earlier now. I have known and ridden several CBs (full and half bred) over the years and didn't care for them much-but then if I were to go for a larger horse they would be higher on the list than lots of others. 

I am a keen supporter of a different, rare, unfashionable UK breed that people are often very rude about and prejudiced against i.e. Exmoor ponies and know what its like (and I for one do not want the Exmoor breed 'improved') so I apologise.

I think most of us have breeds/types that we click with or ones where we are more accepting of their foibles for whatever reason-particularly when we aren't riding lots of different horses regularly perhaps. Fashionable doesn't mean good or best necessarily-especially when it comes to family mounts/amateur riders.


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## Meowy Catkin (24 May 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Shagyas are different, IMO, as they are more like the original and unimproved arab, they are strong athletic and durable, whereas the little sea horse in hand weeds are the 'improved' version.
		
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Shagyas are wonderful, but they are tall. If you want an old style arab, then Iranian Asils are predominantly old style desert horses, though some do have a bit of dish.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d8/12/1e/d8121ebbd210f436e9c63327e25afebb.jpg

Of course the Crabbets are still fabulous horses.


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## JFTDWS (24 May 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I am feeling guilty about my comment earlier now. I have known and ridden several CBs (full and half bred) over the years and didn't care for them much-but then if I were to go for a larger horse they would be higher on the list than lots of others. 

I am a keen supporter of a different, rare, unfashionable UK breed that people are often very rude about and prejudiced against i.e. Exmoor ponies and know what its like (and I for one do not want the Exmoor breed 'improved') so I apologise.

I think most of us have breeds/types that we click with or ones where we are more accepting of their foibles for whatever reason-particularly when we aren't riding lots of different horses regularly perhaps. Fashionable doesn't mean good or best necessarily-especially when it comes to family mounts/amateur riders.
		
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Indeed.  It's interesting - a few early posts described highlands as stubborn.  It's not a phrase I would generally use to describe mine - they have their moments, but largely, mine are really very compliant.  I sent one across a high, narrow bridge over a river the other day without a leader (into the waiting hands of a friend!) while the other gave me one of the best TREC PTV runs of my life a few hours later (despite having had a crashing horse fall that morning on bad ground - not his fault).  I would hate to see the highland breed "improved" by outside blood to make it sportier or "less stubborn" or anything like that.  

I feel similarly about CBs - even if they are less fashionable than highlands right now.  Times change - it wasn't so long ago you did see a fair number of highland x tbs / arabs out and about.  They're not fashionable now either, but maybe not forever.  Would be a shame if we lost them forever.


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## cloverpenny (25 May 2016)

First of all I have no experience of hunting so couldn't tell you if a Highland cross TB would be suitable or not. However I do own a Pure bred highland and have had her for nearly 15 years. We hack mostly but have taken part in showing ridden and in hand in the past. I also have ridden a highland cross throughbred she was forward going , could jump , she had the looks and hairiness of the highland plus the speed and height of the thoroughbred.


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## Clodagh (25 May 2016)

Faracat said:



			Shagyas are wonderful, but they are tall. If you want an old style arab, then Iranian Asils are predominantly old style desert horses, though some do have a bit of dish.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d8/12/1e/d8121ebbd210f436e9c63327e25afebb.jpg

Of course the Crabbets are still fabulous horses.
		
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A friend of mine breeds Arabs (in a tiny way) and she has a Russian mare who I like a lot, also a Crabbet. Bred to do what they should be doing! I am not keen on that Iranian one in the pic.


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## Meowy Catkin (25 May 2016)

Yes, the desert type is a different beast, but they really are tough. When you look at old photos of the Blunt's desert bred horses, they have that same look.


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## Clodagh (25 May 2016)

Great photo.


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## vichyb (25 May 2016)

Wow! Let's bash the CB's eh? It must be wonderful to sit in your ivory towers preaching about the virtues of your chosen horses.   I own a pure and he is by far one of the best horses I've owned, he's not going to take me to Grand Prix but then again I couldn't care less, my main objective in life is to have fun and enjoy.  I am sick and tired of the holier than thou brigade who sit behind keyboards extolling the virtues of their 'perfect' lives when in actual fact it's all a fantasy.  So a CB isn't for you, who cares?! As my mother always told me, if you've got nothing nice to say then keep yer big trap shut. Each to their own, it's horses for courses, I'd never own a TB again, a WB, a cob or any other breed other than a CB because unlike many, my horse is part of my family, he's not a dispensable item that once past his usefulness becomes expendable.  He will be with me to the end and I'm in no hurry with him.  So my advice would be in future to recommend your preferences without judging or condemning others choices.  
Rant over!


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## Goldenstar (25 May 2016)

vichyb said:



			Wow! Let's bash the CB's eh? It must be wonderful to sit in your ivory towers preaching about the virtues of your chosen horses.   I own a pure and he is by far one of the best horses I've owned, he's not going to take me to Grand Prix but then again I couldn't care less, my main objective in life is to have fun and enjoy.  I am sick and tired of the holier than thou brigade who sit behind keyboards extolling the virtues of their 'perfect' lives when in actual fact it's all a fantasy.  So a CB isn't for you, who cares?! As my mother always told me, if you've got nothing nice to say then keep yer big trap shut. Each to their own, it's horses for courses, I'd never own a TB again, a WB, a cob or any other breed other than a CB because unlike many, my horse is part of my family, he's not a dispensable item that once past his usefulness becomes expendable.  He will be with me to the end and I'm in no hurry with him.  So my advice would be in future to recommend your preferences without judging or condemning others choices.  
Rant over!
		
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We don't need to like the same things ,it's a good job we all don't .
This is a forum it's about opinions if you struggle with that I suggest perhaps you find something which amuses you more .


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## Goldenstar (25 May 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Great photo.
		
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It is lovely .
I have a big soft spot for Arabs ( I am sadly to big for one ) my second horse ( my first horse was a disaster ) was an Anglo but very Arab in type she was magic .


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## ester (26 May 2016)

Who mentioned their perfect life!? 
vichyb you seem to have taken this quite personally against your horse!? It isn't, it is a wider discussion of the virtues, or not, of the breed. I think you will also find that many/most/all people posting on this thread also keep their horses for life, not just while they are useful, I don't know where you have gotten any other impression from on this thread?

If people only ever said nice things/backed up others nothing would ever get challenged however important it was that it would be challenged. The internet would also be a very quiet place. Like GS I would suggest that if you don't like people expressing opinions and would prefer people to only do fawning then perhaps this isn't the right place for you . 

I still maintain that all things are usually rare for a reason and this is still a man-made breed not a species so I can't really understand the woe that has been posted about the situation previously.


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## GirlFriday (30 May 2016)

Now, why had no one suggested a TB x Suffolk?!? I think they are pretty rare too and utterly gorgeous. I've had more contact with Ardennes (more mixed quality) than Suffolks despite not living far from the county... That seems sad! (Because, I like riding orange horses, albeit usually crabbet-sized ones)


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## cundlegreen (30 May 2016)

ThursdayNext said:



			Now, why had no one suggested a TB x Suffolk?!? I think they are pretty rare too and utterly gorgeous. I've had more contact with Ardennes (more mixed quality) than Suffolks despite not living far from the county... That seems sad! (Because, I like riding orange horses, albeit usually crabbet-sized ones)
		
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Agree with above. Living in Suffolk country, Hollesley Bay Colony used to breed some of their Suffolk mares to TB's and even a trakehner. They got some lovely crosses but were rarely sold outside the system. The next cross back to a TB produced one of the best Hunter broodmares, Panali.


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## lilly1 (1 June 2016)

I went to Twemlows stallion open day last month and have to say out of all the stallions on view the CB looked the toughest and the most correct.  I've never saw a CB in the flesh before and really quite liked him.  He had good quality bone and excellent feet, something the more modern types can lack.  Breeding for soundness, if I'd had to pick one on the day it would have been the CB.


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## Goldenstar (1 June 2016)

ThursdayNext said:



			Now, why had no one suggested a TB x Suffolk?!? I think they are pretty rare too and utterly gorgeous. I've had more contact with Ardennes (more mixed quality) than Suffolks despite not living far from the county... That seems sad! (Because, I like riding orange horses, albeit usually crabbet-sized ones)
		
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It's a very good cross particularly in the 1/4 Suffolk 3/4 TB form they are rare because the Suffolk mares are so rare .


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## MotherOfChickens (2 June 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			It's a very good cross particularly in the 1/4 Suffolk 3/4 TB form they are rare because the Suffolk mares are so rare .
		
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is that because fertility is an issue? It was a while ago that I knew of any but they had a lot of problems getting them in foal.


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## ester (2 June 2016)

I assumed it was a sheer lack of numbers issue that it would be frowned upon to be using mares to cross out to TBs?


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## Zuzan (2 June 2016)

ester said:



			Who mentioned their perfect life!? 

I still maintain that all things are usually rare for a reason and this is still a man-made breed not a species so I can't really understand the woe that has been posted about the situation previously.
		
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The reasons are various and nothing to do with the quality of the CB

The 1stWW - many never came back
Hunter breeding - many CB mares were crossed with TBs to breed hunters which meant fewer and fewer pure CB mares
Marketing - namely of Coloured cobs, warmbloods and Irish bred horses..  all of whom have been ahead of the curve and I think suplanted the CB
As the numbers of CBs declined fewer and fewer are seen competing..  think about the stats of competition at high level and the amount of "wastage" in warmblood breeding programmes the odds become very stacked against a rare breed.

Re my earlier comment about excellence of horsemanship..  I am old school the use of force and lack of tact in modern (competition) riding is exactly what makes the CB "harder" for modern riders ..  trained with tact and correctly schooled and without the must get ribbons mentality CBs and their crosses make excellent hacks, hunters, riding club and competition horses..  sadly I think modern horsemanship lacks this tact and patience largely.. (this is generalisation obviously).  As stated when I saw Michael Jung rollkur Sam it was to force Sam into submission this is exactly what would cause a CB or a CB cross to fight back and "go wrong".    Above all you have to respect the CB's brains..  

So sadly as I see it the decliine of the CB goes hand in hand with the decline in our horsemanship.


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## Rollin (3 June 2016)

Zuzan said:



			The reasons are various and nothing to do with the quality of the CB

The 1stWW - many never came back
Hunter breeding - many CB mares were crossed with TBs to breed hunters which meant fewer and fewer pure CB mares
Marketing - namely of Coloured cobs, warmbloods and Irish bred horses..  all of whom have been ahead of the curve and I think suplanted the CB
As the numbers of CBs declined fewer and fewer are seen competing..  think about the stats of competition at high level and the amount of "wastage" in warmblood breeding programmes the odds become very stacked against a rare breed.

Re my earlier comment about excellence of horsemanship..  I am old school the use of force and lack of tact in modern (competition) riding is exactly what makes the CB "harder" for modern riders ..  trained with tact and correctly schooled and without the must get ribbons mentality CBs and their crosses make excellent hacks, hunters, riding club and competition horses..  sadly I think modern horsemanship lacks this tact and patience largely.. (this is generalisation obviously).  As stated when I saw Michael Jung rollkur Sam it was to force Sam into submission this is exactly what would cause a CB or a CB cross to fight back and "go wrong".    Above all you have to respect the CB's brains..  

So sadly as I see it the decliine of the CB goes hand in hand with the decline in our horsemanship.
		
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This.  

The first pure bred CB filly I bred was labelled by French riders as lazy.  My French trainer who spent 20 years in the UK and is a BHS AI disagrees.  He taught me new techniques which do not regard 'force'.  As for her 3 year old full sister, this is the filly on this yard HE would take home if he could.  She has it all conformation, light paces a fabulous temperament.  There are photos of this one on H&H FB page, when she was a foal, I didn't do FB then but was told there were 3,00 views.  Both her parents QA by CBHS and her dam a champion filly foal as a yearling at Hexham rare breeds show.

Zuzan your comments on fighting are just as true of my Shagya Arabs.  Since our professional SJ stopped changing her bit, putting on draw reins and a too tight flash - our 6 year old has jumped 7 clear rounds and is currently 34th place out of 600 horses in the SJ championships.


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## spacefaer (3 June 2016)

If you tried to force any of my Irish Draughts to do anything they didn't want to do, you would soon learn the errors of your ways. There are no breeds that react well to dominance - maybe in the short term, you get "learned submission" but in the long term, it never works.


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## amanda123 (3 June 2016)

My daughter had a Highland x TB, we bought him as an unbroken 5yr old from his breeder (they also had the Highland Stallion who they used to hunt) he was only 14.2hh and had been left as he wasn't big enough for his owner. He was quite simply the best pony ever. He was a brilliant hunter, evented, show jumped, did dressage. He was more like a TB than a Highland though.  He was no weight carrier, everyone thought he was a Connie. He went on to another PC/Hunting home. I bought him because I liked him. It's better to look for a type of horse more than a specific breed in most cases, another Highland x TB might not have been anything like him.


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