# More on the misold schoolmistress



## Michen (19 August 2015)

Might as well continue on the update seeing as everything is already on here anyway and all of it factual and all known by her. 

I met with seller on Monday. We agreed she would come and ride the horse. Cutting a long story short the horse stood bolt up right with her when hacking alone and asked to take a turning down the round, standing on her back legs walking backwards into a hedge. I thought she was going to go over- it was terrifying and that was just from the ground.  Seller still claims mare did not do this under her care (despite groom describing that exact behaviour). She says groom never relayed that information back to her as it would have meant he lost the ride. On top of this, yesterday the mare also flipped herself over on the long reins yesterday. Or rather she reared, staggered backwards, met a bank and sort of stumbled onto her side. And she did it twice, despite absolutely zero pressure on her mouth from me. Yes I got her to go where I wanted her to go and "won" but quite frankly a horse that's capable of that is most definitely out of my capability and shows a total lack of self preservation from the horse. 

Seller still refused, in person, to take mare back as apparently has spent the money. 

So a run down of the facts:

- Receipt says description of horse and "sold as trialed on xxx". However no value on there- more fool me. All I have to prove how much I paid was a text message exchange negotiating price, the 4k in CASH that I withdraw on the day and the fact she was advertised at 4250.  Plus a 250 deposit bank transfer. 

- I have advert which says schoolmistress, suitable for first horse, no vices/quirks 

- It was a private sale but her and her husband have a facebook page advertising sales, comp prep, livery etc etc. I have screenshots of ads for other horses (3 this year) however I can find nothing on company house/duedil about the company existing. I imagine she will seperate herself from her "husbands company" to claim its a private sale. 

- Former groom willing to issue a statement stating mares behaviour, but she herself mentioned taking legal action against him today (I did not ask about what) so imagine that could get very messy. 

- I have a facebook screenshot convo of the girl who sold her the mare in January stating that she told the seller "the mare was a nightmare" and earlier convo detailing her behaviour. 

- I have a physio who has seen mare and happy to state nothing physically wrong to describe behaviour. Friend who is a freelance groom/rider who has seen mare behaviour.

- I have consulted an equine lawyer who says I have a good case but to have them involved in a small claims case would likely cost thousand and legal fees aren't recoverable in these claims. Even an initial letter to seller is 600 quid/3 hours work! 


I imagine that due to the receipt/cash etc I'm totally screwed. And I feel so sad for this mare who, after sunday, I was desperately willing to give a chance. I do believe some of her behaviour is genuine insecurity and fear (she planted on the way BACK home for example!), she will always go forward if I walk by her rather than behind. However having seen what she did today on that road I will never ride her out by herself again or even long line her. I cannot have a horse whose immediate reaction to fear or annoyance is to do that. I actually, until today, didn't really believe she would be capable of that under saddle.  Her fear rears are the big ones, her nappy rears are the little hops which are quickly solved with a smack and a boot. Given the fact that she's had this behaviour since a 4 year old, it's unlikely to ever really go away.


Not really sure why I'm posting to be honest- perhaps someone has a magical solution! I'm not even sure what my options are other than to send her on sales livery to be sold as a rearer when hacked alone (would anyone even buy a horse like that for more than a few hundred quid- however incredible to ride? Even if a pro sorted her out and got her out hacking alone with no rearing she would still have to be sold with that potential to rear and full disclosure), go down the court route or give her away as a broodmare and kiss goodbye to my 4k. 

And what do I do with her in the mean time? I'm happy to hack her out in company and ride her in the school etc, but I certainly won't ever long line her out on a hack or attempt to hack her alone again.


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## Sukistokes2 (19 August 2015)

Sorry to hear that this is the position you find yourself in. I have nothing to add except I would seek legal advice before I gave up. You never know what they could come up with. I hope things work out.


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## Michen (19 August 2015)

Sukistokes2 said:



			Sorry to hear that this is the position you find yourself in. I have nothing to add except I would seek legal advice before I gave up. You never know what they could come up with. I hope things work out.
		
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And the blooming mare who, for her all issues, is not a bad little horse. Totally soul destroying how people can be so dishonest. Thanks xx


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## crabbymare (19 August 2015)

If it was me it would be straight to court as you have plenty of evidence that the horse was not as described and is far from a schoolmistress. no way would I want to breed from her and as to riding her thats your choice. but if it was me I would not be doing anything with her until after the court case. sorry its probably not what you want to hear. I really hope you do get your money back or another more suitable horse in exchange as you deserve something good to happen after all you have been through


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## Goldenstar (19 August 2015)

Michen did the horse have a five stage vetting ?


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## sunshine100* (19 August 2015)

bless you what an ordeal--the ONE person who I would direct you to is Gary Witheford--http://www.garywitheford.co.uk/ he can solve/help any horse with love and kindness--plse contact him even for a chat or email him--DONT you dare give up getting your money back pay for a 5 min chat with lawyer in yr town and they will direct you to right path--in the meantime---just give horse lots of love and care plse contact gary! will be watching this closely and hope you take advice


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## Michen (19 August 2015)

Yes BUT it was done by a previous purchaser who then pulled out as the vet who did it happened to be the same vet who treated her for a sarcoid 5 years ago. They had a horrid experience with a sarcoid horse and pulled out but allowed me to have vetting, but it wasn't done under my instruction. I bought her about a week after she passed the vet. 





Goldenstar said:



			Michen did the horse have a five stage vetting ?
		
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## Amymay (19 August 2015)

Jesus. Never, Ever get on that horse again.

I second legal advice, you have a strong case. In your shoes I'd go for a full refund, with no return to the seller, but destruction upon receipt of full refund. She can NOT be passed on.

I am so, so sorry xxx


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## Fun Times (19 August 2015)

The small claims procedure is designed to be user friendly so that people can use it without having to engage lawyers. You could have a crack at it on your own? So long as you write your statements clearly and in a manner which is factually accurate I would say you have as good a chance as anyone.


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## ycbm (19 August 2015)

You do not need a lawyer to take a claim to the small claims court. You can do it all yourself, and clearly from the way you write, you are totally capable of doing that.


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## Michen (19 August 2015)

I wouldn't actually mind riding her out hacking in company as she's genuinely fine to hack when she's with someone. Or are you of the opinion that any horse that can do this is not to be ridden at all? I've never had a rearer- it's unknown territory to me as to whether they shouldn't be trusted in any situation or just not in the one that causes them to rear. 

I will try but she's extremely tough and knows the law, the situation I am in and how vulnerable my case is for various reasons. She's the type to fight it all the way to the court. 



amymay said:



			Jesus. Never, Ever get on that horse again.

I second legal advice, you have a strong case. In your shoes I'd go for a full refund, with no return to the seller, but destruction upon receipt of full refund. She can NOT be passed on.

I am so, so sorry xxx
		
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## Michen (19 August 2015)

Yes, I just think that she has a family friend who is a lawyer and if I went without one, and she went with one, I may well lose?



ycbm said:



			You do not need a lawyer to take a claim to the small claims court. You can do it all yourself, and clearly from the way you write, you are totally capable of doing that.
		
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## Orangehorse (19 August 2015)

Can't you do a Small Claims Court, which is up to £5,000.  Sounds like you have a very good case.  Have you tried the BHS for legal advice.

Dealers ALWAYS say they have spent the money when you want to take the horse back.


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## Tiarella (19 August 2015)

I don't personally think you'll get anywhere with a court case and lose a lot of money trying.

It's becoming more common for people not to hack these days due to it being so dangerous so why not try and sell her as a competition horse and state she does not hack alone. That wouldn't put many people off to be honest. 

Although haven't read other posts properly - I'm presuming she is more a competition horse than a happy hacker?

Just sell her cheap and buy the pretty grey you showed me!!


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## ycbm (19 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Yes, I just think that she has a family friend who is a lawyer and if I went without one, and she went with one, I may well lose?
		
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I don't think she can claim he costs from you, just as you can't claim yours from her, so what have you got to lose?  This sort of case is exactly what the small claims court is for.  The horse reared with her, you have two people willing to testify that she did it before with them. It doesn't seem to me that you have anything to lose but a fairly small fee for taking the case?  And some time and nervous energy of course, and only you can decide if that's worthwhile.


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## Michen (19 August 2015)

I wish- I bought the horse with a bank loan! I don't have any cash lying around. And before anyone gets at me for buying her with a loan, I earn a salary which easily enables me to pay it back- I just didn't have that cash lying around and wanted something decent.  Ho ho ho...





Tiarella said:



			I don't personally think you'll get anywhere with a court case and lose a lot of money trying.

It's becoming more common for people not to hack these days due to it being so dangerous so why not try and sell her as a competition horse and state she does not hack alone. That wouldn't put many people off to be honest. 

Although haven't read other posts properly - I'm presuming she is more a competition horse than a happy hacker?

Just sell her cheap and buy the pretty grey you showed me!!
		
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## Amymay (19 August 2015)

The horse flipped herself longlining, and almost did the same mounted with the seller. That's not something I would ever get on.

The seller does not know the law, clearly. She's just trying to intimidate you.

Speak to your bank about the loan,  and if you are protected for mis sold goods.


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## Pearlsasinger (19 August 2015)

Michen said:



			II will try but she's extremely tough and knows the law, the situation I am in and how vulnerable my case is for various reasons. She's the type to fight it all the way to the court.
		
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Or she could just be hoping that is what you will think and not pursue the case.


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## Michen (19 August 2015)

No she can't. It's more that I would assume if she had a good lawyer behind her she may automatically win as I'd be on my own 




ycbm said:



			I don't think she can claim he costs from you, just as you can't claim yours from her, so what have you got to lose. The horse reared with her, you have two people willing to testify that she did it before with them. It doesn't seem to me that you have anything to lose but a fairly small fee for taking the case.
		
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## honetpot (19 August 2015)

The whole point of he Small Claims Court is its simple, my friend went over a vets bill and it was only her, the vet and who ever was judging the case. I would imagine if they turned up with a solicitor who ever was judging it would be a bit annoyed.
  My friend won her case, just get as much paperwork together as possible and lay set the facts out clearly, its more Judge Judy than Crown Court.


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## ycbm (19 August 2015)

Michen said:



			No she can't. It's more that I would assume if she had a good lawyer behind her she may automatically win as I'd be on my own
		
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No, the small claims court is set up to help you put your case. And if she wins, so what? You're little worse off than you are now., and at least you managed to give her some aggravation and might just make her think about doing it again to someone else. Your case sounds very strong to me, but it's your call.


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## Michen (19 August 2015)

Quite possibly. Well once I've had a decent sleep and have pulled myself together she may find that I'm perhaps not quite as fluffy as I can come across  




Pearlsasinger said:



			Or she could just be hoping that is what you will think and not pursue the case.
		
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## Michen (19 August 2015)

That's an interesting thought, I hadn't even considered that. The loan is no problem in that I can pay it off in a few months, Id just be bloody cross at having to pay 4k for something I didn't end up having! 



amymay said:



			The horse flipped herself longlining, and almost did the same mounted with the seller. That's not something I would ever get on.

The seller does not know the law, clearly. She's just trying to intimidate you.

Speak to your bank about the loan,  and if you are protected for mis sold goods.
		
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## sunshine100* (19 August 2015)

plse contact gary witherford dont suffer yourself or the lovely horse


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## Possum (19 August 2015)

What an awful situation to find yourself in. The only thing I can add is that even if she doesn't operate the horse trading business through a company it doesn't mean that she's not a trader - to be classified as 'trading' it should be sufficient for there to have been a pattern of buying and selling horses with a motive of creating profits.


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## Michen (19 August 2015)

Yep I think you are right. Apparently it can take up to three months though, in the mean time what on earth do I do with the horse. Really can't afford professional livery and if I lose my case and she's not in any form of work and potentially useful for something/someone as a non hacking comp horse- then I've shot myself in the foot as well. Like I said I'd be happy enough to hack her in company and school her though I agree with what amymay says... It does seem like a bit of a risk. 




ycbm said:



			No, the small claims court is set up to help you put your case. And if she wins, so what? You're little worse off than you are now., and at least you managed to give her some aggravation and might just make her think about doing it again to someone else. Your case sounds very strong to me, but it's your call.
		
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## Moomin1 (19 August 2015)

If it were me I would cut my losses legally and I  would pts the mare also.  Sorry.


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## Michen (19 August 2015)

Not sure that's entirely sensible given she is a nicely bred, well put together mare that at the very least could be a brood mare for someone. But I get your opinion, shooting her did cross my mind also. 



Moomin1 said:



			If it were me I would cut my losses legally and I  would pts the mare also.  Sorry. 

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## Moomin1 (19 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Not sure that's entirely sensible given she is a nicely bred, well put together mare that at the very least could be a brood mare for someone. But I get your opinion, shooting her did cross my mind also.
		
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I wouldn't even consider breeding from anything with that sort of temperament, well bred or not.  But I suppose it is always a more financially viable option to consider than pts.  I certainly wouldn't allow anyone to get on her whatever you decide.


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## Amymay (19 August 2015)

A brood mare?  Ummm....


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## FfionWinnie (19 August 2015)

Phone the tax man. Trading standards and anyone else who might listen.


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## Moomin1 (19 August 2015)

amymay said:



			A brood mare?  Ummm....
		
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My thoughts entirely.  PTS would be the only way forward in my mind for this horse and I certainly would not breed from her.


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## splashgirl45 (19 August 2015)

have read all of your posts and feel for you but also feel for the horse....why not contact gary w and get his assessment of her, that may help you with your case and also he may be able to find out why she is rearing and help sort the horse out which will help her find a decent home, so you may be able to get a bit of money back that way..  if she is more of a competition horse she may thrive on doing a bit more than hacking..good luck


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## Michen (19 August 2015)

Hmm, I did speak to my instructor about it who seemed to be of the opinion that it was likely she was screwed up from backing. Given both her parents are successful eventers and she is in all other ways a very chilled, nice little horse im not sure that entirely writes her off? 

But I know NOTHING about breeding or how temperament is carried etc so in no way am I saying that I'm not completely incorrect!





amymay said:



			A brood mare?  Ummm....
		
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## Ali27 (19 August 2015)

What a horrible situation! I do wonder whether the mare is in pain though? Our 14.2 mare napped when we first tried her out. The owner's boyfriend rode her down the road and all she did was rear, spin, rear! My daughter loved her though and she was an angel to hack behind another horse so we took a gamble on her. We were lucky as the owner was completely honest about her. We have had her over 5 years and she now hacks out perfectly on her own! However, I do believe that she has been in pain most of the time that we have had her. First, I eliminated molasses and soya from her diet, then considered that clover might be making her react (calm healthy horses, a New Zealand site is very useful) and finally she tested positive for gastric and hind ulcers in November by using the succeed faecal test. She was treated with succeed digestive supplement for 90 days and was better after that. She still had the odd spooky, nappy incident with some rearing so I have just given her a course of chios mastic powder and after three weeks, I have a lovely calm, spook free, willing and tense free pony. Testing/ treating for ulcers would be my number one priority with a nappy horse. I think our poor pony has had ulcers for years.


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## Moomin1 (19 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Hmm, I did speak to my instructor about it who seemed to be of the opinion that it was likely she was screwed up from backing. Given both her parents are successful eventers and she is in all other ways a very chilled, nice little horse im not sure that entirely writes her off? 

But I know NOTHING about breeding or how temperament is carried etc so in no way am I saying that I'm not completely incorrect!
		
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The long and short of it IMO is that there are far too many unwanted horses/screwed up horses/poor progeny in this world already, therefore people shouldn't be breeding from dodgy horses just for the sake of getting something back out of it financially, or even emotionally/sentimentally.  Only breed from the best.


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## junglefairy (19 August 2015)

PTS seems a bit drastic! Whatever you decide to do I think this horse deserves a fair chance with a pro


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## Amymay (19 August 2015)

The thing is Michen, just because something has a womb it doesn't mean we should necessarily use it.

Your instructor may well be right. But then again she may not (and quite probably isn't). And unless you are prepared to take on that risk yourself I wouldn't consider it.

There are plenty of good to middling (and awful) mares popping out foals every year.  The industry can well do without another, especially from a mare with a very questionable ridden temperament. 

Sorry, that's blunt. But this has to be very head over heart, and no one with any sense would breed from her.

As for pts being drastic. Damn right it is. If op can afford a field ornament, brilliant. If not, what are the options?


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## Moomin1 (19 August 2015)

junglefairy said:



			PTS seems a bit drastic! Whatever you decide to do I think this horse deserves a fair chance with a pro
		
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That's fine....if OP is willing to fork out for it.


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## SO1 (19 August 2015)

I feel so sorry for you.

I would try not to be intimidated by the seller. I think there is some hope as she did agree to come and see you and get on the horse herself, if she expected there was a strong possibility of the horse rearing like that and that there was a risk she could fall off and hurt herself then she may not have bothered coming to see you at all.

I think the next step is to write to her and explain that you feel the behaviour demonstrated does not meet the standard description of a horse that was advertised a schoolmistress suitable as a first horse. State you would like her to take the horse back and to get a full refund. You could also mention that it appears that she has a business or is associated with a business producing horses for sale or offering sales and schooling livery as she has a facebook page is mentioned on a facebook page promoting this business and that she might want to consider her professional reputation when making this decision.


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## Goldenstar (19 August 2015)

You need some proper advice .
I am not sure than the sold as trialled receipt means a thing .
It's my understanding that you can't sign away your rights under English law .
The seller has clearly not represented the horse correctly in the adverts .
See or speak to a solicitor ASAP it needs to be one who does equine work or try the BHS legal helpline if you are a gold member  .


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## WelshD (19 August 2015)

Small claims is not expensive, I was involved in a case while at an old employer with a problem supplier

Costs were around £300 IIRC

if you want to save money then I would personally pen my own letter setting out how you come to the conclusion they are a trader/dealer and therefore accountable and give it to a non horsey solicitor to put in to legal language on some headed paper, cost would be a lot less than £600

An equine solicitor may well be a good investment though as they must know the ins and outs of these things


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## Michen (19 August 2015)

Hey- Im not saying in any way that this is what I would do- it's just a musing. I don't know anywhere near enough about breeding to have any sort of knowledge on this. Hence why people on here who do are so helpful. If a professionals opinion is that she should be shot, and I have to make that decision then the decision will be made. 



amymay said:



			The thing is Michen, just because something has a womb it doesn't mean we should necessarily use it.

Your instructor may well be right. But then again she may not (and quite probably isn't). And unless you are prepared to take on that risk I wouldn't consider it.

There are plenty of good to middling (and awful) mares popping out foals every year.  The industry can well do without another, especially from a mare with a very questionable ridden temperament. 

Sorry, that's blunt. But this has to be very head over heart, and no one with any sense would breed from her.
		
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## charlie76 (19 August 2015)

Tell her to take the horse back and refund you or you will be taking her to court for the cost of the horse plus all costs( livery etc) incurred whilst the horse is in your care.


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## Moomin1 (19 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Hey- Im not saying in any way that this is what I would do- it's just a musing. I don't know anywhere near enough about breeding to have any sort of knowledge on this. Hence why people on here who do are so helpful. If a professionals opinion is that she should be shot, and I have to make that decision then the decision will be made.
		
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You'll be unlikely to get many professionals saying she should be shot. They are more likely to try and extract some cash from you first in order to do some experimenting/work/investigation first. Which is fine if you are happy and willing to go ahead and do  that.


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## Michen (19 August 2015)

I'm not sure why I bother entertaining your posts, they are so passive aggressive in every way- you were the same with Torres. 

Whatever happens moving forward, I can assure you that the horse will be dealt with appropriately whilst in my care. Whether that is putting to sleep, having her dealt with by a pro (which I really would rather not have to fork out for but luckily I have a good monthly income so it's not unfeasible) etc etc. I have never dealt with a horse irresponsibly and nor do I intend to start now. 





Moomin1 said:



			You'll be unlikely to get many professionals saying she should be shot. They are more likely to try and extract some cash from you first in order to do some experimenting/work/investigation first. Which is fine if you are happy and willing to go ahead and do  that.
		
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## Michen (19 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			You need some proper advice .
I am not sure than the sold as trialled receipt means a thing .
It's my understanding that you can't sign away your rights under English law .
The seller has clearly not represented the horse correctly in the adverts .
See or speak to a solicitor ASAP it needs to be one who does equine work or try the BHS legal helpline if you are a gold member  .
		
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Spoke to a solicitor who says I have a good case but am better going at it alone unless I am willing to pay the likely 2k it would cost to have her involved in the small claims case. However she was very helpful and can draft a letter for around 600 pounds which may be a good starting point. 

Thanks for the advice- sensible as ever!


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## Moomin1 (19 August 2015)

Michen said:



			I'm not sure why I bother entertaining your posts, they are so passive aggressive in every way- you were the same with Torres. 

Whatever happens moving forward, I can assure you that the horse will be dealt with appropriately whilst in my care. Whether that is putting to sleep, having her dealt with by a pro (which I really would rather not have to fork out for but luckily I have a good monthly income so it's not unfeasible) etc etc. I have never dealt with a horse irresponsibly and nor do I intend to start now.
		
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No, it was simply me putting my thoughts across.  Apologies that you feel that way.  Good  luck.


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## ycbm (19 August 2015)

junglefairy said:



			PTS seems a bit drastic! Whatever you decide to do I think this horse deserves a fair chance with a pro
		
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She's had six months with a pro, who got her quiet enough to demonstrate and sell, but the tension of moving her to a new home is showing her true colours. Michen has already taken a loan to buy her, knows the mare has this history from one year old, and probably doesn't have any more money to throw at this problem, given how much she spent trying to fix the physical problems of her last one


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## charlie76 (19 August 2015)

Are you a BHS gold member? If so use the legal helpline. If not, join an use it, they were brilliant when I had an issue.


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## Amymay (19 August 2015)

Michen said:



			I have never dealt with a horse irresponsibly and nor do I intend to start now.
		
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No you haven't. 

I'm so sorry you are in this awful situation. People who mis sell are just dirt!


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## ycbm (19 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Spoke to a solicitor who says I have a good case but am better going at it alone unless I am willing to pay the likely 2k it would cost to have her involved in the small claims case. However she was very helpful and can draft a letter for around 600 pounds which may be a good starting point. 

Thanks for the advice- sensible as ever!
		
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You don't need to pay her to write that letter for you, still less that amount of money!  Draft it yourself and I'm sure there are several of us on this forum who will be willing to help you with it.


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## JanetGeorge (19 August 2015)

A horse that rears when it goes solo but not in company is demonstrating learned behaviour, not something due to pain.  And they can be incurable for their rider - I had one (an ex racehorse) who did it and before I sold it (to someone who knew him well) he hadn't tried (with me) in more than 12 months.  The first time the buyer tried him, he tried rearing on him - experienced young rider who very quickly followed my advice - never had the problem again.  But for a less experienced, less confident rider, he'd have been doing it daily.

BUT, if you're honest about her to a prospective purchaser they'd be barking mad to agree more than - say - £500!  Even if they KNOW they can cure her in a few weeks (and you never know 100%)

But why the hell should you go through trying to sell her.  Or putting her down (given how much money that would mean chucking to the wind on top of leaving you feeling guilty and lousy!)The witch who sold her to you legally qualifies to be called a 'dealer' if she's sold 3 horses in the last year - which means she owes you more than a genuine private horse owner does.  She was unfit for purpose.  I would take her to Small Claims - it costs about£150 to get the case in.  She can't claim legal costs even if she wins. (Neither can you.)

Having had a modest amount of experience with Small Claims as an 'expert witness' I have seen Judges owe a natural sympathy to someone in your position as against crooked sellers, even ones that aren't obvious dealers (and the Judge not knowing one end of a horse from another!)  Small Claims cases are pretty easy to manage - you don't need ANY legal training or know-how.  All you need is a plausible story, and some extra 'evidence' to prop up the corners.

As a breeder, I wouldn't touch her because while bad riding at a young age can 'teach' this unpleasant habit to a horse, they certainly wouldn't all develop it - there is a streak of temperament that makes it more likely and I don't want to do ANYTHING to increase the risk of breeding a foal that might grow up to be a ratbag!

Best of luck - I HATE people who knowingly sell the wrong horse to the wrong person - they are not just thieves but they are thieves showing NO concern for the risk of killing the buyer (rearers going over backwards are potential killers!)


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## Michen (19 August 2015)

Indeed, I will write it myself. Have been told by her she is consulting her solicitor tomorrow though. Hopefully her solicitor will advise her correctly. In the mean time, what to do with the mare! 




ycbm said:



			You don't need to pay her to write that letter for you, still less that amount of money!  Draft it yourself and I'm sure there are several of us on this forum who will be willing to help you with it.
		
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## junglefairy (19 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			She's had six months with a pro, who got her quiet enough to demonstrate and sell, but the tension of moving her to a new home is showing her true colours. Michen has already taken a loan to buy her, knows the mare has this history from one year old, and probably doesn't have any more money to throw at this problem, given how much she spent trying to fix the physical problems of her last one 

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Fair point, maybe the old groom who seemed fond of the mare would take her? Just think if she's a talented horse hopefully there can be another way out.


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## Michen (19 August 2015)

Thank you. It is a real shame as the mare is lovely in other ways. As I said in a previous post I took her on a sponsered ride and she behaved impeccably when a huge group of kids galloped right past her screaming and shouting. Whilst the 17 year old schoolmaster we were with was going a bit nuts! Such a shame, she could be a wonderful, wonderful horse. 




JanetGeorge said:



			A horse that rears when it goes solo but not in company is demonstrating learned behaviour, not something due to pain.  And they can be incurable for their rider - I had one (an ex racehorse) who did it and before I sold it (to someone who knew him well) he hadn't tried (with me) in more than 12 months.  The first time the buyer tried him, he tried rearing on him - experienced young rider who very quickly followed my advice - never had the problem again.  But for a less experienced, less confident rider, he'd have been doing it daily.

BUT, if you're honest about her to a prospective purchaser they'd be barking mad to agree more than - say - £500!  Even if they KNOW they can cure her in a few weeks (and you never know 100%)

But why the hell should you go through trying to sell her.  Or putting her down (given how much money that would mean chucking to the wind on top of leaving you feeling guilty and lousy!)The witch who sold her to you legally qualifies to be called a 'dealer' if she's sold 3 horses in the last year - which means she owes you more than a genuine private horse owner does.  She was unfit for purpose.  I would take her to Small Claims - it costs about£150 to get the case in.  She can't claim legal costs even if she wins. (Neither can you.)

Having had a modest amount of experience with Small Claims as an 'expert witness' I have seen Judges owe a natural sympathy to someone in your position as against crooked sellers, even ones that aren't obvious dealers (and the Judge not knowing one end of a horse from another!)  Small Claims cases are pretty easy to manage - you don't need ANY legal training or know-how.  All you need is a plausible story, and some extra 'evidence' to prop up the corners.

As a breeder, I wouldn't touch her because while bad riding at a young age can 'teach' this unpleasant habit to a horse, they certainly wouldn't all develop it - there is a streak of temperament that makes it more likely and I don't want to do ANYTHING to increase the risk of breeding a foal that might grow up to be a ratbag!

Best of luck - I HATE people who knowingly sell the wrong horse to the wrong person - they are not just thieves but they are thieves showing NO concern for the risk of killing the buyer (rearers going over backwards are potential killers!)
		
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## LinzyD (19 August 2015)

Sorry if someone has already said this; I've not had time to read all the posts, but for what it's worth here are a few pointers for you.

- Don't be put off by the other party having a lawyer.  I once won a small claims case against a national rail company who came armed with a full legal team.  It's all about having good evidence and knowing what matters.
- In your case the seller may deny that she operates as a business and you may be persuaded to believe that this makes it harder for you because the Sale of Goods Act does not apply to private sales.  There are two responses to this: 1) Collect all the evidence of the seller's equestrian business activities, via FB, adverts, every tiny thing you can find, lessons, livery, tack for sale, absolutely everything.  You then state to the court that you believe the seller's horse-dealing is 'ancilliary to their other equine business activities'.  This means that even if it is not a main source of income and the seller only sells one or two horses, it falls under the Sale of Goods Act and you can claim that the horse is not fit for the purpose for which it was sold, i.e. a schoolmistress.  You prove that it was sold as a schoolmistress by providing the advert.  You prove that it is not fit for purpose by providing a video of it displaying dangerous behaviour or by providing an expert statement from a suitably qualified person, e.g. a BHS instructor.  2) If the Court does not accept that the sale was a business transaction by the seller, then you claim 'Misrepresentation'.  This is a powerful claim.  'Fraudulent Misrepresentation' applies if the seller knew of the horse's issues, 'Negligent Misrepresentation' applies if the seller, as she indeed claims, was completely unaware of the horse's issues and advertised in good faith.  Misrepresentation applies equally to private sales.  With Negligent Misrepresentation the seller must take the horse back and refund you even if she genuinely knew nothing of the horse's behavourial issues.  The point is that it was 'misrepresented' as a schoolmistress even if the seller believed this to be true at the time.
- In the meantime just put the horse out at grass somewhere if you can.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.  The reason I know all of the above is that I took some very good legal advice when I was stung on a very expensive horse that turned out not to be fit for purpose.  In the end I did not pursue legal redress because I was subjected to threats of violence and arson against my other horses and the whole thing was making me ill, but with hindsight I wish I had pursued my case.  There is nothing to lose and everything to gain.


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## Michen (19 August 2015)

Bless you for typing all that out. Thank you! Xxx



LinzyD said:



			Sorry if someone has already said this; I've not had time to read all the posts, but for what it's worth here are a few pointers for you.

- Don't be put off by the other party having a lawyer.  I once won a small claims case against a national rail company who came armed with a full legal team.  It's all about having good evidence and knowing what matters.
- In your case the seller may deny that she operates as a business and you may be persuaded to believe that this makes it harder for you because the Sale of Goods Act does not apply to private sales.  There are two responses to this: 1) Collect all the evidence of the seller's equestrian business activities, via FB, adverts, every tiny thing you can find, lessons, livery, tack for sale, absolutely everything.  You then state to the court that you believe the seller's horse-dealing is 'ancilliary to their other equine business activities'.  This means that even if it is not a main source of income and the seller only sells one or two horses, it falls under the Sale of Goods Act and you can claim that the horse is not fit for the purpose for which it was sold, i.e. a schoolmistress.  You prove that it was sold as a schoolmistress by providing the advert.  You prove that it is not fit for purpose by providing a video of it displaying dangerous behaviour or by providing an expert statement from a suitably qualified person, e.g. a BHS instructor.  2) If the Court does not accept that the sale was a business transaction by the seller, then you claim 'Misrepresentation'.  This is a powerful claim.  'Fraudulent Misrepresentation' applies if the seller knew of the horse's issues, 'Negligent Misrepresentation' applies if the seller, as she indeed claims, was completely unaware of the horse's issues and advertised in good faith.  Misrepresentation applies equally to private sales.  With Negligent Misrepresentation the seller must take the horse back and refund you even if she genuinely knew nothing of the horse's behavourial issues.  The point is that it was 'misrepresented' as a schoolmistress even if the seller believed this to be true at the time.
- In the meantime just put the horse out at grass somewhere if you can.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.  The reason I know all of the above is that I took some very good legal advice when I was stung on a very expensive horse that turned out not to be fit for purpose.  In the end I did not pursue legal redress because I was subjected to threats of violence and arson against my other horses and the whole thing was making me ill, but with hindsight I wish I had pursued my case.  There is nothing to lose and everything to gain.
		
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## DressageCob (19 August 2015)

Hello!

I don't know if you'd qualify but it might be worth contacting the Bar Pro Bono Unit. I can't recall what their criteria is but it is worth an ask. 

You don't need a lawyer to write the letter. there are plenty of examples online or go to the citizens' advice bureau. 

Also have a look at going to a barrister direct. It sometimes works out cheaper than having a solicitor (quite often you'd have to hire a barrister for the hearing in any event, if proceeding through a solicitor). 
Otherwise there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to run a small claim on your own. It's not too complicated. Check your home insurance for legal expenses cover too. You'd be surprised how much they cover.


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## WelshD (19 August 2015)

I wouldn't do a thing more with the horse aside from day to day care. Any improvement will be held against you and any further issues held against you. 

If you found evidence of three horses for sale chances are there are more. Google phone numbers, names of both people plus shortened names eg check for Anthony and Tony (an example) horses names, house name etc you can find tonnes of stuff on the net

I investigated a thieving colleague at a former place of work. I found nearly eighty a4 pages of relevant info on the net. I'm the worlds nosiest person when it comes to digging for information


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## Michen (19 August 2015)

Oh me too! Have done all the digging I can. Google search is my friend. 




WelshD said:



			I wouldn't do a thing more with the horse aside from day to day care. Any improvement will be held against you and any further issues held against you. 

If you found evidence of three horses for sale chances are there are more. Google phone numbers, names of both people plus shortened names eg check for Anthony and Tony (an example) horses names, house name etc you can find tonnes of stuff on the net

I investigated a thieving colleague at a former place of work. I found nearly eighty a4 pages of relevant info on the net. I'm the worlds nosiest person when it comes to digging for information
		
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## Illusion100 (19 August 2015)

You don't need to pay for a Solicitor to do this for you. Facts are facts and Judges recognise the underdog. The mare may have been 'sold as seen' but she is not as advertised. It isn't because of your riding level, as the mare went up with the seller when they recently rode her. 

This mare has had longstanding issues that can be paper trailed. Given this I would say you could present that the mare was fraudulently sold to you.

In the meantime I would put the mare on grass livery (dare I say it!!!!) on individual t/o in order to demonstrate you have provided a 24/7 routine without risk of damage from other horses, or to or from other handlers going in with her.

Grass livery is cheapest, you can't be accused of 'wrecking' the mare by continuing to ride/exercise her and who knows, some time out may do the mare some good. 

If you really get stuck and need to move the mare on, PM me and I pass the details onto a Pro that will take her and assess her over a few days and give a very experienced opinion on what is what.

Don't be intimidated by the sellers Solicitor, you have a good case.


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## OldNag (19 August 2015)

Echo what other have said about Small Claims Court - it is simpler than you would think.

Also BHS legal advice is fantastic. I used them gor some advice over the phone. 

Also whoever mentioned home insurance legal cover - definitely worth checking if you are covered. 

Good luck. I am not a lawyer but I would say you have a good case,  and this woman could be classed as a dealer.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

Fantastic thank you!

My concern is that if they have someone in to asses the horse and she has had time off, she may not display the behaviour? If that makes sense. As she doesn't do it all of the to time, if she had time off she may get out of the "cycle" of it? It makes sense in my head!


Illusion100 said:



			You don't need to pay for a Solicitor to do this for you. Facts are facts and Judges recognise the underdog. The mare may have been 'sold as seen' but she is not as advertised. It isn't because of your riding level, as the mare went up with the seller when they recently rode her. 

This mare has had longstanding issues that can be paper trailed. Given this I would say you could present that the mare was fraudulently sold to you.

In the meantime I would put the mare on grass livery (dare I say it!!!!) on individual t/o in order to demonstrate you have provided a 24/7 routine without risk of damage from other horses, or to or from other handlers going in with her.

Grass livery is cheapest, you can't be accused of 'wrecking' the mare by continuing to ride/exercise her and who knows, some time out may do the mare some good. 

If you really get stuck and need to move the mare on, PM me and I pass the details onto a Pro that will take her and assess her over a few days and give a very experienced opinion on what is what.

Don't be intimidated by the sellers Solicitor, you have a good case. 

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## Illusion100 (20 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Fantastic thank you!

My concern is that if they have someone in to asses the horse and she has had time off, she may not display the behaviour? If that makes sense. As she doesn't do it all of the to time, if she had time off she may get out of the "cycle" of it? It makes sense in my head!
		
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The issue isn't about what the mare will do, it about what she has done. Nobody goes to Court with a case of 'horse may do this so I want to claim', don't over think it! Nobody pays £4 for an advertised Schoolmistress and goes to Court because of 'what if'! 

With animals (and even humans!), there is no guarantee that they will display a relevant negative/dangerous behaviour during an assessment. I can't see why the Seller would even push for this considering the mare gave her a hard time last time she rode her!

Judges aren't stupid. 

I just want to say I have no legal training but had experience as an underdog and things have gone well.


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## Equi (20 August 2015)

What a horrible situation. No matter what you decide to do do so safely and I hope it gets some sort of resolve for you and the mare.


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## PeterNatt (20 August 2015)

One other advantage of the small claims court is that if you get a judgment in your favour then and future searches of their current name and/or address will reveal that they have had a county court judgment made against them.  This could potentially effect them in many different ways in the future.


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## Tiarella (20 August 2015)

I'm so confused. Is the only thing this Mare has done wrong is rear when by herself?


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## Equi (20 August 2015)

Tiarella said:



			I'm so confused. Is the only thing this Mare has done wrong is rear when by herself?
		
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Vertical rearing when alone to the point of falling over is rather severe by any standards esp a supposed schoolmistress.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

She's reared and napped when asked to walk to school and at shows but they are small and easily worked through. She rears vertically under saddle and on long rejns when hacking alone. 

Now that I have seen how she is capable of rearing under saddle, it's obviojsly a concern that this will not just be limited to her hacking alone and that she may do this in other situations aka napping to the school. 

It's not a case of it being "the only thing she's done". she was sold as hacking alone and in company. 



Tiarella said:



			I'm so confused. Is the only thing this Mare has done wrong is rear when by herself?
		
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## Kat (20 August 2015)

OP before you start any small claims proceedings please check whether you are entitled to free legal advice either via your horse insurance, your home insurance, membership of organisations like BHS, trade unions or professional bodies. It is worth exploring as many people do not realise they are entitled to claim for this advice. If you do go and see a lawyer, preferably one that knows one end of a horse from the other (though not necessarily one that touts themselves as an equine lawyer you want one experienced with mis-selling cases). 

Your case is not necessarily a small claim (under £5k) as you can claim all the costs not just the purchase price so you may be able to recover legal costs and if that is the case a lawyer may work on a CFA (no win no fee) if you don't have insurance. 

Feel free to PM I have some experience of this type of case.


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## merlin12 (20 August 2015)

You can go to small claims court on your own.You do not need a lawyer. The court can give you information on how the process works. May go to mediation. Never get to court. I have friends who have used this process. Google small claims court.


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## Kat (20 August 2015)

PeterNatt said:



			One other advantage of the small claims court is that if you get a judgment in your favour then and future searches of their current name and/or address will reveal that they have had a county court judgment made against them.  This could potentially effect them in many different ways in the future.
		
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Only if the judgment is not paid in time. This is the same whether the small claims track or fast track (over 5k and under £25k) is used. It is the same court with the same judges just a simplified process.


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## Kat (20 August 2015)

merlin12 said:



			You can go to small claims court on your own.You do not need a lawyer. The court can give you information on how the process works. May go to mediation. Never get to court. I have friends who have used this process. Google small claims court.
		
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You can go to court as a litigant in person but why bother putting yourself through it if you could get legal representation that is funded via your insurance or a CFA.


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## almostthere (20 August 2015)

I am sorry I haven't read all of the replies so apologies if this is duplicative. 
First, I just wanted to say I am so sorry - I thought I was the unluckiest horse buyer in the world but you may just beat me with this one. 
Second, I agree with Amy May - I too purchased a rearer (unbeknown to me and I had specifically asked whether she did at the point of sale) BUT she never ever went over backwards and actually (and bizarrely) always felt incredibly balanced up there which is the ONLY reason I persevered with her. Two years on and the rears have disappeared and were probably initially borne out of pain. However, if I had witnessed what you did  - I would not have got on her ever again. My mare had very strong self preservation - your appears to have flipped beyond that.
Third when I had an issue with a  pro rider, I struggled for a while to sort it out myself (I am appropriately trained so it should have been a piece of cake) but was far too emotionally involved (outraged by the injustice of it all etc) and so I used Jacqui Fulton. Yes she wasn't cheap but she got his attention with ONE letter, and it was resolved quickly thereafter. Up to that point said pro was messing around and not really engaging just to annoy me further I think.  Jacqui was great - very no nonsense but gave me a fair assessment of my chances and I would recommend her wholeheartedly.
Again - so so sorry you are going through this. Horses are so amazing and yet there seems to be some very, very dishonest people involved in the world


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## MS123 (20 August 2015)

Michen I'm so sorry to read about this after the ordeal you went through with Torres. Others here have provided you with some fantastic advice, and I do think you have a very strong chance in winning this case through the small claims court! Best of luck x


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## lamlyn2012 (20 August 2015)

Do you have legal cover on your house/horse insurance policy. If so they will appoint a solicitor to take your case forward without charge to you, provided the legal people think you have a good chance of success in court. They will ask you for full details of the case to assess chance of success.


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## frostyfingers (20 August 2015)

I can't advise on the legal side, although from previous experience with the small claims court be prepared for it to take time, to be filling in forms and to keep having to chase things.  It took us a while but eventually we were successful in claiming for non payment of a bill.

I would reiterate what I think others have said though - do not do anything with the horse while this is ongoing.  It is possible that they will say "oh, you've been riding her, it must have happened because of that/something you've done".  Good luck.


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## Doormouse (20 August 2015)

Just a thought but in your original post about this mare you mentioned a dent in her head where she was kicked by her dam as a foal. Just wondering if this may have any bearing on her behaviour, ie affected sight or nerve pain?


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## Mooseontheloose (20 August 2015)

As with kat above, feel free to pm as I've had experience too of this kind of thing.
BHS Gold are brilliant and will give you excellent advice. NFU Mutual insurance covered costs in my case and couldn't have been more helpful. Small claims court costs v little.


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## Goldenstar (20 August 2015)

Michen I know someone who took a vendor to court in very similar circumstances they where legally advised and return the horse then sued for the return of their money .
They basically went and dropped the horse off with a witness then sued .
Make sure you get advice about what's the correct thing to do .
They won btw got the purchase price and costs .


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## DressageCob (20 August 2015)

There's a lot of misinformation here (well meaning though it is). 

Small claims limit is £10,000. Your claim is highly unlikely to exceed that amount (at best it's the horse's value plus livery costs). 

CFAs are difficult to come by these days, particularly in contract disputes. I'd rule that one out. There's no way you'd get one for a small claim. Solicitors' costs are capped (unless there's been unreasonable conduct during litigation by the other side).

Your case is what your horse has done, with some discussion on what she may do. It's unlikely that anyone will come and inspect the horse for the purposes of a small claim (which this is). 

Court case aside, it would be worth getting a video of her rearing in case the vendor says that it didn't happen. Document everything you can. Hopefully she'll see what you're on about and take the horse back.


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## ester (20 August 2015)

She is in the wrong not to take her back, 
in nobodies book is she a schoolmistress, and just because she supposedly didn't know that the mare did it in her care that is her problem, ignorance isn't a defence!

I'm sorry it has ended up like this Michen but in some ways I do think better she behaved like that with the seller rather than you trying to carry on and come up against more problems down the line.


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## RunToEarth (20 August 2015)

Tiarella said:



			Just sell her cheap and buy the pretty grey you showed me!!
		
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Whatever you do, do not take this advice. I know from your previous experiences you aren't one to pass the buck but it's shocking this advice can still be seen as a sensible option! 

I would be looking at small claims court - more evidence contesting her schoolmistress advert the better.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

I think it was meant light heartedly haha. If she was to be sold it would not be without going on sales livery with a pro and full disclosure of her issues and problems. 




RunToEarth said:



			Whatever you do, do not take this advice. I know from your previous experiences you aren't one to pass the buck but it's shocking this advice can still be seen as a sensible option! 

I would be looking at small claims court - more evidence contesting her schoolmistress advert the better.
		
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## Speedyfluff (20 August 2015)

junglefairy said:



			PTS seems a bit drastic! Whatever you decide to do I think this horse deserves a fair chance with a pro
		
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Agree with this.


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## Clodagh (20 August 2015)

I haven't read all the posts but it is a nice time of year, can you find grass livery for the time it takes to go through the court? Take her shoes off and turn her away. Then, if you lose (which I really think is unlikely) you can always quickly get a pro to get her going and sell her with a full known history? 
All the very best and I really feel gutted for you.


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## MyBoyChe (20 August 2015)

Im so sorry that this is happening.  I managed to get nearly all my money refunded from the dealer I bought my rearer from, we didnt get as far as court, she agreed to come and collect the horse and we agreed on the refund.  I should have pressed for the full amount but tbh, having read some horror stories on here I was just glad to recoup most of it.  I really dont think you should ride the horse again, whatever is causing her to rear you have confessed it is beyond your level of competence so please dont risk it.  I also agree that you have a very good case for taking this person to the small claims court, it does sound as if they are hoping you wont bother but you have an awful lot of evidence that the horse was wrongly advertised.  Good luck with whatever you decide to do x


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## Annagain (20 August 2015)

No advice sorry, just a big virtual hug. xxx


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

Ahh thank you that's probably what I need the most right now lol! Such a horrid sad situation for both me and the horse. Hey ho, I've had the horse with nightmare physical problems and the horse with nightmare behavioural issues so perhaps third time lucky- if I don't run away from horses forever more after this! 




annagain said:



			No advice sorry, just a big virtual hug. xxx
		
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## Bluedaisys (20 August 2015)

Another one here with no advice but sending a hug &#10084;&#65039;


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## hollyandivy123 (20 August 2015)

hi don't know if you are in the BHS, might be worth becoming a member and talking their legal team, sorry if this got mentioned before. i haven't read all the posts


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## Tiarella (20 August 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			Whatever you do, do not take this advice. I know from your previous experiences you aren't one to pass the buck but it's shocking this advice can still be seen as a sensible option! 

I would be looking at small claims court - more evidence contesting her schoolmistress advert the better.
		
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RTE - me and Michen have pm'ed before so looking outside the box I can understand where you are coming from. But it was meant as a light hearted joke.

If this mare is good other than hacking alone (which a huge majority of horses don't hack alone) I'm not sure I see a huge issue? If you can resolve the napping which you said you can then just don't hack alone?


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## ester (20 August 2015)

For 4k I'd want to be able to hack alone without threat of being squashed, and wouldn't even want her to have that on her list of behaviours at all, I bet there will be another time it shows up, competing or similar something she doesn't like and that will be her go to.


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## MotherOfChickens (20 August 2015)

sorry to hear this, you've really given it a good shot but a horse with no sense of self preservation is not worth it-good luck in getting your money back.


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## Caol Ila (20 August 2015)

Sorry you are having such horse drama!  Don't have any advice, other than *hugs*

I agree with Ester: a 4K 'schoolmistress' advertised as having no vices better be able to hack alone without trying to kill itself and its rider.  If it were a little spooky or balky, okay, but rearing and flipping is a bit more serious.


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## Irish gal (20 August 2015)

Glad you got to see the mare's behaviour from the ground, I was worried she could be the type to hurt herself. A professional might take her on depending on talent. Have you ever loose jumped her to see how high she can jump? I would be giving that a go, with a view to selling to a professional with full disclosure. 

And I think the small claims court is a good way to go. That dealer will be worried about revenue implications, she  probably put that cash in her pocket, without a penny going in tax. If she's shown to be a dealer, she will have questions to answer from revenue.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

Have you read the original post on this thread??? She rears vertical when hacked alone. She naps in other situations and does small rears. I know no she is capable of rearing vertically and therefore do not want a horse that can do that, whose to say she won't do that going into a collecting ring at some point?

Sorry but I think it's quite clear from my original post. 




Tiarella said:



			RTE - me and Michen have pm'ed before so looking outside the box I can understand where you are coming from. But it was meant as a light hearted joke.

If this mare is good other than hacking alone (which a huge majority of horses don't hack alone) I'm not sure I see a huge issue? If you can resolve the napping which you said you can then just don't hack alone?
		
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## applecart14 (20 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Might as well continue on the update seeing as everything is already on here anyway and all of it factual and all known by her. 

I met with seller on Monday. We agreed she would come and ride the horse. Cutting a long story short the horse stood bolt up right with her when hacking alone and asked to take a turning down the round, standing on her back legs walking backwards into a hedge. I thought she was going to go over- it was terrifying and that was just from the ground.  Seller still claims mare did not do this under her care (despite groom describing that exact behaviour). She says groom never relayed that information back to her as it would have meant he lost the ride. On top of this, yesterday the mare also flipped herself over on the long reins yesterday. Or rather she reared, staggered backwards, met a bank and sort of stumbled onto her side. And she did it twice, despite absolutely zero pressure on her mouth from me. Yes I got her to go where I wanted her to go and "won" but quite frankly a horse that's capable of that is most definitely out of my capability and shows a total lack of self preservation from the horse. 

Seller still refused, in person, to take mare back as apparently has spent the money. 

So a run down of the facts:

- Receipt says description of horse and "sold as trialed on xxx". However no value on there- more fool me. All I have to prove how much I paid was a text message exchange negotiating price, the 4k in CASH that I withdraw on the day and the fact she was advertised at 4250.  Plus a 250 deposit bank transfer. 

- I have advert which says schoolmistress, suitable for first horse, no vices/quirks 

- It was a private sale but her and her husband have a facebook page advertising sales, comp prep, livery etc etc. I have screenshots of ads for other horses (3 this year) however I can find nothing on company house/duedil about the company existing. I imagine she will seperate herself from her "husbands company" to claim its a private sale. 

- Former groom willing to issue a statement stating mares behaviour, but she herself mentioned taking legal action against him today (I did not ask about what) so imagine that could get very messy. 

- I have a facebook screenshot convo of the girl who sold her the mare in January stating that she told the seller "the mare was a nightmare" and earlier convo detailing her behaviour. 

- I have a physio who has seen mare and happy to state nothing physically wrong to describe behaviour. Friend who is a freelance groom/rider who has seen mare behaviour.

- I have consulted an equine lawyer who says I have a good case but to have them involved in a small claims case would likely cost thousand and legal fees aren't recoverable in these claims. Even an initial letter to seller is 600 quid/3 hours work! 


I imagine that due to the receipt/cash etc I'm totally screwed. And I feel so sad for this mare who, after sunday, I was desperately willing to give a chance. I do believe some of her behaviour is genuine insecurity and fear (she planted on the way BACK home for example!), she will always go forward if I walk by her rather than behind. However having seen what she did today on that road I will never ride her out by herself again or even long line her. I cannot have a horse whose immediate reaction to fear or annoyance is to do that. I actually, until today, didn't really believe she would be capable of that under saddle.  Her fear rears are the big ones, her nappy rears are the little hops which are quickly solved with a smack and a boot. Given the fact that she's had this behaviour since a 4 year old, it's unlikely to ever really go away.


Not really sure why I'm posting to be honest- perhaps someone has a magical solution! I'm not even sure what my options are other than to send her on sales livery to be sold as a rearer when hacked alone (would anyone even buy a horse like that for more than a few hundred quid- however incredible to ride? Even if a pro sorted her out and got her out hacking alone with no rearing she would still have to be sold with that potential to rear and full disclosure), go down the court route or give her away as a broodmare and kiss goodbye to my 4k. 

And what do I do with her in the mean time? I'm happy to hack her out in company and ride her in the school etc, but I certainly won't ever long line her out on a hack or attempt to hack her alone again.
		
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My first thoughts would be to send her to Micheal Pearce or Richard Maxwell to see if they are able to help her.  Max and his team are specialists with this type of horse and have ironed out many horses with similiar/same problems.  They have a team of physios/dentists and vets who work alongside them and may just give you that opinion that you need in order to make a decision.  I think he costs £300 or did when my friend had him to her horse in desperation.   http://www.richard-maxwell.com/aspx016/article.aspx?CID=1

http://www.thinkequus.com/  - Michael Pearce

This may be a lot cheaper and more beneficial for you to go down this route.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

Exactly this. Why that's hard to understand is beyond me but perhaps my patience is rather thinning lol! 





ester said:



			For 4k I'd want to be able to hack alone without threat of being squashed, and wouldn't even want her to have that on her list of behaviours at all, I bet there will be another time it shows up, competing or similar something she doesn't like and that will be her go to.
		
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## MyBoyChe (20 August 2015)

To the posters who are saying "send her to a pro or for rehab".  Are there seriously people who would be prepared to get on a horse with witnessed behaviours like the OPs for £300 ish?  I know there may be lots of reasons why she is doing it, the list is endless really, but honestly, I wouldnt want to be the one to try and fathom it!!  Im quite sure if money was no object the OP would happily try and find a reason and then make the right decision for the mare, but come on, she paid £4k in good faith for a hassle free horse.  She doesnt have unlimited funds (how many of us do) and not only that but to be fair, whilst she is dealing with all this she hasnt got a horse, that is not what she signed up to.  If she had wanted a project I believe there is a very good sight for that type of horse, and it wouldnt have cost her £4k would it!  Does anyone actually want to offer her £4k for the mare to take her away and rehab her.  Im sure she would be very grateful to anyone that could guarantee her a safe home and sort all her issues, I know I would be if I was in that situation.


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## milliepops (20 August 2015)

Yup I think ester has hit the nail on the head. I'd also take issue with the idea that lots of horses don't hack alone...  not in my experience! I don't think I've ever ridden anything that has progressed from basic backing at 3yo that needs to have company to hack in a civilised way   Well, I wouldn't accept it, put it that way.

Good luck with this Michen.  You deserve a bit of good fortune.


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## Amymay (20 August 2015)

milliepops said:



			I don't think I've ever ridden anything that has progressed from basic backing at 3yo that needs to have company to hack in a civilised way
		
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Me neither.  Not have I actually known anyone with a horse that won't hack alone.


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## sasquatch (20 August 2015)

Really feel for you Michen  
She obviously is a talented mare but somewhere down the line someone or something has happened to make her like this. If a pro could take her on, she may improve but she definitely doesn't sound like a schoolmistress or the horse you were sold.

Have you had an independent vet look her over and take bloods etc? 
Did you try her yourself, and were bloods taken then? (if there was a chance she was doped when you tried her)

Horrible horrible situation, my mum is a lawyer and has a horsey background/understanding (although not an equine lawyer) and has been involved in the CAB/small claims advice before. If you have a draft letter, I can always ask her if she will look over it for you if she has the time too. 

It sounds like the seller knew the horse was a problem and is trying to make any excuse to get rid of her imo. I would try and get as many videos/photos/documented proof of her behaviour as possible.


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## ihatework (20 August 2015)

BHS gold helpline - they will have dealt with this hundreds of times and will likely have legally correct wording that you can use to communicate with the seller.

In your shoes my aim would be to return the mare to the seller for a full refund, if seller does this quickly then I'd let expenses go. If seller is a pain I'd go all out on expenses and stirring trouble with the tax man & trading standards.

Make sure you save / screen shot adverts for other horses they are selling as well as your horses advert.

Don't enter any significant dialogue with the seller now.
State the issue, that the horse is not fit for purpose, any relevant laws, and what you expect the seller to do and by when. Then advise you will start court proceedings on X date to include full expenses incurred to date.

In the interim get a video of her rearing then turn her away and spend nothing on her bar the vitals


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## RunToEarth (20 August 2015)

Tiarella said:



			RTE - me and Michen have pm'ed before so looking outside the box I can understand where you are coming from. But it was meant as a light hearted joke.

If this mare is good other than hacking alone (which a huge majority of horses don't hack alone) I'm not sure I see a huge issue? If you can resolve the napping which you said you can then just don't hack alone?
		
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Obviously humour isn't conveyed well on internet sites - I didn't realise it was a joke, apologies. 

However, it's very clear from the OP that this £4K schoolmistress has serious issues. People often dismiss the severity of rearing, but until you have sat on a true rearer, you won't really understand. 

Something that can turn itself inside out and pull itself over might never be a safe ridden horse. Something that rears without pain is very dangerous. She's only doing it out hacking alone at the moment, but a habitual rearer will have that as her defence mechanism, often throughout her life. The danger of a habitual rearer, who rears for behavioural reasons is that you will never know when they are going to go up - it could be in the school, at a competition surrounded by people, or on the road, with an 8ft vertical drop between the saddle and the tarmac. 

It isn't worth the risk, or the liability of passing it on to someone else, because sometimes rearers are just rearers and you can't change that - I sure as hell tried with mine, and I'm sure PS would be able to tell you some tales that make your hair stand on end with the trouble she had with Pea.

I have also never met a horse that won't hack alone - it is most certainly not common here!


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

In all honesty I thought I was being a wimp about this mare before yesterday. I've never even seen a horse go up like that with someone on it let alone it be the horse that I own. It was horrible and terrifying. 



RunToEarth said:



			Obviously humour isn't conveyed well on internet sites - I didn't realise it was a joke, apologies. 

However, it's very clear from the OP that this £4K schoolmistress has serious issues. People often dismiss the severity of rearing, but until you have sat on a true rearer, you won't really understand. 

Something that can turn itself inside out and pull itself over might never be a safe ridden horse. Something that rears without pain is very dangerous. She's only doing it out hacking alone at the moment, but a habitual rearer will have that as her defence mechanism, often throughout her life. The danger of a habitual rearer, who rears for behavioural reasons is that you will never know when they are going to go up - it could be in the school, at a competition surrounded by people, or on the road, with an 8ft vertical drop between the saddle and the tarmac. 

It isn't worth the risk, or the liability of passing it on to someone else, because sometimes rearers are just rearers and you can't change that - I sure as hell tried with mine, and I'm sure PS would be able to tell you some tales that make your hair stand on end with the trouble she had with Pea.

I have also never met a horse that won't hack alone - it is most certainly not common here!
		
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## ester (20 August 2015)

No you weren't being a wimp, I know a nappy mare and rearing is her first response to something she doesn't like being asked and it's no fun and I wouldn't ride it, I like a quiet life where a spook at the whip box is the most that will happen . 

Michen I would consider speaking to the bhs, mempership is only £5/6 a month which I do for the public liability also some of the more legally minded on here (of which Kat and helenalbert both are iirc). I would think it advisable to start keeping a note of livery fees now too? Do not let this woman convince you that she knows the law better than you in the hope that she scares you off, it is not on. The horse is not as described and not fit for purpose and she doesn't even have to be a dealer (which you could prob prove she is) for these to apply. The fact she has spent the money is her problem, she could do the same as you and pay it back.


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## RunToEarth (20 August 2015)

Michen said:



			In all honesty I thought I was being a wimp about this mare before yesterday. I've never even seen a horse go up like that with someone on it let alone it be the horse that I own. It was horrible and terrifying.
		
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You're not being a wimp. I think when a lot of people discuss rearing they think of the odd, naughty 90 degree type that a lot of horses' will demonstrate at some point. 

Having had something who would rear with meaning, to the point where I had to wrap my hands around the top of his neck just to stay on board, I completely understand where you are coming from, and I don't blame you for being so cautious. 

Schoolmistresses are still horses, they might have the odd buck or some display of resistance like any other horse, but vertical rearing is something else entirely.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

Thanks all. I'm waiting to hear back from her as she is consulting her solicitor. It may be that she makes me an offer to take the horse back. Though she said she cannot immediately give me a large sum so I imagine at best it will be over a period of a few months. If I hear nothing by end of today I have a letter semi drafted and will start the court proceedings. 

In the mean time I am going to long line mare one more time with a friend to get a video just in case it's needed, and then turn her out in the 24/7 grass fields. Highly irritating that it will still cost me 60 quid a month in petrol just to check on her and feed etc but I'll keep a note of absolutely every expense.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

Thank you that's really kind. No vet check im not inclined to spend any more money on her. 

She really is such a lovely horse to ride in every other way, I am gutted. I've never sat on a horse and wanted to bring it home so much, she just floats. 




sasquatch said:



			Really feel for you Michen  
She obviously is a talented mare but somewhere down the line someone or something has happened to make her like this. If a pro could take her on, she may improve but she definitely doesn't sound like a schoolmistress or the horse you were sold.

Have you had an independent vet look her over and take bloods etc? 
Did you try her yourself, and were bloods taken then? (if there was a chance she was doped when you tried her)

Horrible horrible situation, my mum is a lawyer and has a horsey background/understanding (although not an equine lawyer) and has been involved in the CAB/small claims advice before. If you have a draft letter, I can always ask her if she will look over it for you if she has the time too. 

It sounds like the seller knew the horse was a problem and is trying to make any excuse to get rid of her imo. I would try and get as many videos/photos/documented proof of her behaviour as possible.
		
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## Annagain (20 August 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			I have also never met a horse that won't hack alone - it is most certainly not common here!
		
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This  - well one or two but they didn't last long. Neither of mine hack alone very often as I see hacking as a social, chill out activity and prefer to have a gossip and a laugh. Generally, when I ride alone, I school. However, if I do hack alone they're both fine - maybe a little more alert or jumpy but it's no big deal and if I did it regularly it would be even less of a deal. If I was ever thinking of selling either of them, I would make sure I hacked them alone day in day out for weeks before advertising them to make sure their behaviour was perfect so I could honestly describe them as such.


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## ester (20 August 2015)

Do not hand the horse back until you have had a full refund! No payment plan!


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

No I won't but in the mean time I'll be incurring costs. She did say whatever was drawn up she would have done by a solicitor to make sure it was legal and binding on both sides?



ester said:



			Do not hand the horse back until you have had a full refund! No payment plan!
		
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## Barnacle (20 August 2015)

If I were you, I'd take her for walks in-hand and keep riding her gently in the school with lots of groundwork beforehand. I don't think she's a lost cause at all. She only rears in one context and it seems to be out of habit - behavioural issues with no underlying health problem can always be solved. It's not a tumour or something crazy like that or it would not be isolated to a single context. She's young, of good breeding and from what you say lovely to ride. It would be silly to put her down and turning her away won't help her. She needs lots of time in-hand to build her trust and confidence. Obviously, if you can just return her and get your money back, fantastic... But as things stand, that's what I'd be doing.


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## fatpiggy (20 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Thanks all. I'm waiting to hear back from her as she is consulting her solicitor. It may be that she makes me an offer to take the horse back. Though she said she cannot immediately give me a large sum so I imagine at best it will be over a period of a few months. If I hear nothing by end of today I have a letter semi drafted and will start the court proceedings. 

In the mean time I am going to long line mare one more time with a friend to get a video just in case it's needed, and then turn her out in the 24/7 grass fields. Highly irritating that it will still cost me 60 quid a month in petrol just to check on her and feed etc but I'll keep a note of absolutely every expense.
		
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Well she could always get a bank loan to buy the horse - as the OP did! My friend's horse had a really serious accident and had to have surgery and two weeks in the local equine hospital.  Insurance wasn't a problem but the hospital wouldn't let her take him home until the bill was settled in full.  It was several thousand which of course she didn't have so she got a loan, then refunded it from the insurance 6 weeks later.


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## D66 (20 August 2015)

Michen said:



			No I won't but in the mean time I'll be incurring costs. She did say whatever was drawn up she would have done by a solicitor to make sure it was legal and binding on both sides?
		
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Sounds like she'll go for a payment plan.  If you are pushed into it insist on adding the expenses because you won't get the last instalment however legally the agreement is written.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

Why would I not get the last instalment?




Digger66 said:



			Sounds like she'll go for a payment plan.  If you are pushed into it insist on adding the expenses because you won't get the last instalment however legally the agreement is written.
		
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## applecart14 (20 August 2015)

MyBoyChe said:



			To the posters who are saying "send her to a pro or for rehab".  Are there seriously people who would be prepared to get on a horse with witnessed behaviours like the OPs for £300 ish?  I know there may be lots of reasons why she is doing it, the list is endless really, but honestly, I wouldnt want to be the one to try and fathom it!!  Im quite sure if money was no object the OP would happily try and find a reason and then make the right decision for the mare, but come on, she paid £4k in good faith for a hassle free horse.  She doesnt have unlimited funds (how many of us do) and not only that but to be fair, whilst she is dealing with all this she hasnt got a horse, that is not what she signed up to.  If she had wanted a project I believe there is a very good sight for that type of horse, and it wouldnt have cost her £4k would it!  Does anyone actually want to offer her £4k for the mare to take her away and rehab her.  Im sure she would be very grateful to anyone that could guarantee her a safe home and sort all her issues, I know I would be if I was in that situation.
		
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I would have thought that the Richard Maxwell or Michael Pearce route would have been far cheaper than dragging someone through Court.  It could be tha there is a genuine pyschical reason for the mares behaviour which has not yet been found.  These experts are used to sitting on such animals and whilst such a horse would faze 99.9% of us riders (me included) they would not necessarily phase an expert who is used to this kind of behaviour and sees it on a weekly or even daily basis.  Furthermore this type of person is more knowledgable in horse behaviour, and understands why the mare is behaving or reacting as she is.  If Max or Michael couldn't sort out the problem then any physical or mental problems would be recorded and would be useful to use as evidence against the vendor.  I understand that why she is dealing with the problem the OP has no horse to ride, but this would be the same with Court, and it may take many weeks or months to go through the Court process (Courts are VERY busy at the moment and very behind).

It was only a suggestion, and what I would do if I were in her situation that was all.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

I looked into MP. It's 300 pounds a DAY for him to come to your yard(including travel) and I hardly think her problems can be fixed in one session...

Or 400 a week livery. Not an option im afraid. My wage is good but not that good.


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## Equi (20 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Thanks all. I'm waiting to hear back from her as she is consulting her solicitor. It may be that she makes me an offer to take the horse back. Though she said she cannot immediately give me a large sum so I imagine at best it will be over a period of a few months. If I hear nothing by end of today I have a letter semi drafted and will start the court proceedings. 

In the mean time I am going to long line mare one more time with a friend to get a video just in case it's needed, and then turn her out in the 24/7 grass fields. Highly irritating that it will still cost me 60 quid a month in petrol just to check on her and feed etc but I'll keep a note of absolutely every expense.
		
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Only accept the full amount back! If she gets away with payment plan then you are still stuck without all the money.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

Yes but if you genuinely doesn't have it, surely better to get it back within a couple of months rather than wait 3 months for a court case which may or may not rule in my favour? I don't know. The payment plan would only be an option if draw up by a solicitor. 




equi said:



			Only accept the full amount back! If she gets away with payment plan then you are still stuck without all the money.
		
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## ester (20 August 2015)

and that is all presuming there is no physical problem, and gets the seller off the hook.


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## applecart14 (20 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Or 400 a week livery. Not an option im afraid. My wage is good but not that good.
		
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I hate to say but I think it will cost you a lot more than that to take her to Court.  From what I have just read from an article that was written in Jan 2013 it would cost you £465 for a claim of £4000. Enforcing the judgement (where the person won't pay) costs £100 on top of this.

You could at least ring Richard Maxwell and ask his opinion, I am sure he would be more than happy to discuss your mares situation with you at the very least.

Richard Maxwell used to have horses at his place but it appears that he only goes out to yards now.


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## webble (20 August 2015)

amymay said:



			Jesus. Never, Ever get on that horse again.

I second legal advice, you have a strong case. In your shoes I'd go for a full refund, with no return to the seller, but destruction upon receipt of full refund. She can NOT be passed on.

I am so, so sorry xxx
		
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Sadly I agree with this


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## Sherbie (20 August 2015)

Aww Michen, I have been following your post on your Mare and really hoped that things would work out after Sunday.

Seriously, don not ride her anymore, the small hissy fit rears are one thing but the big ones to the point she is flipping over are unreal.  I have personally been on the receiving end of a 'flipper',  seeing that saddle come towards my face is something I will NEVER forget,  it completely ruined my confidence and nearly gave up horses for life.  I do not think its normal for a horse to flip or rear to the point it nearly falls over while ridden or not.  Please keep safe.  The more this happens, the more damage she will do her own back too.  I know some fantastic riders who will not get on a big rearer, however there are some great people ( some on here im sure) who can work with them properly and the horse improves.

really hope you manage to get some kind of compensation from the dodgy dealer.  This is clearly not a first horse, bless her bet she has been through a lot :/


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## ycbm (20 August 2015)

amymay said:



			Me neither.  Not have I actually known anyone with a horse that won't hack alone.
		
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I've had one in forty years. I could make him. I'd never, ever, have let anyone else try it. They are very different from a common or garden nappy horse, of which I've had, and sorted, many.They do exist, but they aren't common.


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## Amymay (20 August 2015)

ester said:



			do not hand the horse back until you have had a full refund! No payment plan!
		
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Completely agree!!

Do not be a mug.  You must absolutely play hard ball on this.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

I know  but if the alternative is waiting a few months and me having to keep her....?


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## Amymay (20 August 2015)

Michen said:



			I know  but if the alternative is waiting a few months and me having to keep her....?
		
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Oh no,  it doesn't work like that.  Full refund within the next 7 days or court. It's  her choice.  She's played you for a fool and will continue to if you let her.


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## webble (20 August 2015)

Michen said:



			I know  but if the alternative is waiting a few months and me having to keep her....?
		
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Horrible situation for you, you aren't being a wimp at all, hugs to you


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

amymay said:



			Oh no,  it doesn't work like that.  Full refund within the next 7 days or court. It's  her choice.  She's played you for a fool and will continue to if you let her.
		
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I know but I guess what I'm trying to say is that I may shoot myself in the foot as court won't necessarily rule in my favour... Hopefully but not definite.


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## hihosilver (20 August 2015)

I feel for you but if it were me I would want to do the right thing and take responsibility of my horse-because she is your horse now. I would stop the meter running and PTS. Yes you have lost 4k- but not a life. You will soon have that 4k back by not having a horse in the horrid winter. You should not be even considering breeding from her. What on earth is the point of that? She may have KS and you are breeding from her! Please cut your loses, stay safe and keep others safe by doing the right thing fro this poor mare.


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## paddy555 (20 August 2015)

sorry I haven't had time to read all the relies. In addition to googling the woman get as much background as possible, you may have to pay but it will only be small amounts for copies of documents. 
Get an entire family history, how long she has lived there, who with, how many kids etc. Where she lived before, how long, 
You should be able to get the value of her property and make sure she actually has an asset and suffficient money to repay you. Make sure she is not bankrupt, what company directorships does she, husband or the kids hold etc. You can buy the company accounts online if necessary.  Was she recently married? if so there could be a load of problems in her maiden name. Has she traded under any other names etc. 
 Contact trading standards for her current area and previous addresses if any in say the last 10 years. These sort of people leave a trail behind them. You may find other problems via trading standards if she or OH (or their company if they have one) have made a habit of this. I dealt with  investigation as my career and it was surprising when we asked Trading standards that they had a list of problems a mile long for that individual. 

If you can trace any owners of her other sales through facebook etc try and visit them and discuss what happened with them. They may all be totally happy or it may be a long list of discontent. Someone may have tried to sue her already and you will see what happened. Google the groom/rider and make sure he is genuine. Someone good enough to be riding and training a confirmed rearer may well have history even if it is only successfully competing.You will then know how much credence you can put on his comments. 
Find out where the horse's first owner advertised her ie how did this woman get her in the first place. Where does this dealer advertise sales? where does she buy her horses from? 
Before making any decision as to what to do legally get every bit of research so you know exactly what you are dealing with. It may help you make a decision. It may also throw up other info that would either be useful in a court case or alternatively that you could take back to the woman to force action out of court. 

As for the horse then I wouldn't do anything until the legal side is decided one way or another. If she was mine, rather than loose money by giving her away etc I would keep her and try and work on her as a challenge. She doesn't show this behaviour in company so I would be looking at the question of fear from being made to hack alone and work on this for 6 months to see if it could be resolved. That wouldn't mean she could ever be sold as the perfect horse but you may still get a nice horse and she will have been given a chance. The work would be on the ground in hacking out alone situations to work out what is going wrong. That would be relatively safe if she was only ridden in company where she was not stressed. 

Is there any legal reason why you cannot put a post on here giving the womans name, address etc and asking if anyone has dealt with her and ask for pm only replies? You never know you may not be the only one. Someone may live close to her and give you some background even if only to show there is a problem or that she is the perfect dealer?


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

I sincerely WISH people would stop telling me what the right thing to do for the horse is. Never in my life have I dealt with a horse in anything but a responsible manner and I do not intend to start now. I cannot shoot a horse that is about to be the subject of a court case. 



hihosilver said:



			I feel for you but if it were me I would want to do the right thing and take responsibility of my horse-because she is your horse now. I would stop the meter running and PTS. Yes you have lost 4k- but not a life. You will soon have that 4k back by not having a horse in the horrid winter. You should not be even considering breeding from her. What on earth is the point of that? She may have KS and you are breeding from her! Please cut your loses, stay safe and keep others safe by doing the right thing fro this poor mare.
		
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## ester (20 August 2015)

I think you have a very good case, speak to the legal peeps on here and send her a formal letter setting out your terms or you will take her to court. It is not up to you to give her payment options.


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## Hetsmum (20 August 2015)

Michen I really feel for you.  After all you have been through life is a bi*ch!  There is some very good advise on here and I am sure if you accept even a legally binding agreement to hand the horse back with a payment plan then you can bet you will see 1 or 2 payments then that'll be it.  You are too nice a person to understand how pond scum work!  Lots of people have responded that you have a good chance of success with a small claims case - some of them from experience.  Have you had a chance to talk to the BHS legal yet?  I know it will be tough to ride out the next few months to get it sorted but please persist.  I also 'thought' that if someone sold more than 3 or 4 horses in a year they were automatically classes as a dealer -  however they might present themselves?  I may be wrong on that though.....its just my friend re-habs TBs off the track and re-homes (usually making a loss!) but she is aware of something like this.  Best of luck and take the (legal - where they are qualified) help that has been offered.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

I will do. Letter being drafted right now. The best part is that I got kicked in the stomach by her when I was long reining her day before yesterday! I don't blame anyone but myself for this as it was a split second of lack of concentration on my part and being too close, it's the first time she's kicked out when I've sent her forward on the long reins. 

Still it bloody hurt and the bruising seems to be hurting more! 





ester said:



			I think you have a very good case, speak to the legal peeps on here and send her a formal letter setting out your terms or you will take her to court. It is not up to you to give her payment options.
		
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## Amymay (20 August 2015)

hihosilver said:



			I feel for you but if it were me I would want to do the right thing and take responsibility of my horse-because she is your horse now. I would stop the meter running and PTS. Yes you have lost 4k- but not a life. You will soon have that 4k back by not having a horse in the horrid winter. You should not be even considering breeding from her. What on earth is the point of that? She may have KS and you are breeding from her! Please cut your loses, stay safe and keep others safe by doing the right thing fro this poor mare.
		
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The horse is as happy as Larry and certainly doesn't need destroying just yet. 

What a completely stupid and misplaced post.


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## samlf (20 August 2015)

Seems like you've been given some excellent advice but what an awful position to be in, I really don't envy you.

I know it's always easy to be on the outside and look in, but I think I remember a post by you about this mare saying she was reactive to being tacked/girthed up? Personally I'd get saddle and back checked, even if I wasn't going to continue riding her just to make sure she was comfortable and plus if she was all fine physically another bit of evidence in your favour. 

I have known some very well mannered horses react explosively when their saddle was not fitting well/they were in pain.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

I can confirm that horse is currently stuffing her face on lovely soaked hay out of a hay cube so as not to cause her any "damage" from the tugging of her haynet. That she has recently been shod all round, is on Allen and page fast fibre with a general forage plus supplement and is bedded on rubber matting and decent wood pellets. She is in during the day for relief from flies as per yard routine and has around 15 hours turnout a day. 

I can also confirm that if I took her for a hack with company, or led her down to the school and rode her she would give me a lovely ride and would be well behaved. 

So please, anyone who thinks that I won't handle this horse appropriately, re think. If I cannot get her sent back via court or agreement then the decision made for her from that point onwards will be made with equal care . 





amymay said:



			The horse is as happy as Larry and certainly doesn't need destroying just yet. 

What a completely stupid and misplaced post.
		
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## milliepops (20 August 2015)

paddy555 said:



			Is there any legal reason why you cannot put a post on here giving the womans name, address etc and asking if anyone has dealt with her and ask for pm only replies? You never know you may not be the only one. Someone may live close to her and give you some background even if only to show there is a problem or that she is the perfect dealer?
		
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Specifically on this point, it would be much much better for Michen if she doesn't do this (I very much doubt she's planning to  ) there's a sticky on the forum basically to the effect that discussions that identify dealers are totally against forum Ts & Cs. Michen is getting some useful advice on this thread and it would be a shame for this & any subsequent threads to be pulled.

....would have been a useful thing for others, were it not against da rules


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## ester (20 August 2015)

amymay said:



			The horse is as happy as Larry and certainly doesn't need destroying just yet. 

What a completely stupid and misplaced post.
		
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I don't think that poster can really comment on indiscrimnant breeding anyway so . 

Michen, if you ever want to come down for a sensible non stress pony blast you are very welcome!


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## RunToEarth (20 August 2015)

hihosilver said:



			I feel for you but if it were me I would want to do the right thing and take responsibility of my horse-because she is your horse now. I would stop the meter running and PTS. Yes you have lost 4k- but not a life. You will soon have that 4k back by not having a horse in the horrid winter. You should not be even considering breeding from her. What on earth is the point of that? She may have KS and you are breeding from her! Please cut your loses, stay safe and keep others safe by doing the right thing fro this poor mare.
		
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I wish people would stop equating rearing to kissing spine. Horses rear for reasons other than kissing spine.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

Yes she is however I think I am at fault with that, one sharp word from the owner when they tacked her up yesterday and she stopped that rubbish immediately. 

She has had physio and saddle has been professionally fitted. Physio was after I had ridden in saddle for a week or so as well. All good there. 




samlf said:



			Seems like you've been given some excellent advice but what an awful position to be in, I really don't envy you.

I know it's always easy to be on the outside and look in, but I think I remember a post by you about this mare saying she was reactive to being tacked/girthed up? Personally I'd get saddle and back checked, even if I wasn't going to continue riding her just to make sure she was comfortable and plus if she was all fine physically another bit of evidence in your favour. 

I have known some very well mannered horses react explosively when their saddle was not fitting well/they were in pain.
		
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## Michen (20 August 2015)

Yes she is however I think I am at fault with that, one sharp word from the owner when they tacked her up yesterday and she stopped that rubbish immediately. 

She has had physio and saddle has been professionally fitted. Physio was after I had ridden in saddle for a week or so as well. All good there. Both physio and saddler happy to issue statements. 




samlf said:



			Seems like you've been given some excellent advice but what an awful position to be in, I really don't envy you.

I know it's always easy to be on the outside and look in, but I think I remember a post by you about this mare saying she was reactive to being tacked/girthed up? Personally I'd get saddle and back checked, even if I wasn't going to continue riding her just to make sure she was comfortable and plus if she was all fine physically another bit of evidence in your favour. 

I have known some very well mannered horses react explosively when their saddle was not fitting well/they were in pain.
		
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## Michen (20 August 2015)

I may well have to!!!!! Are horses supposed to be fun? Surely not?  





ester said:



			I don't think that poster can really comment on indiscrimnant breeding anyway so . 

Michen, if you ever want to come down for a sensible non stress pony blast you are very welcome!
		
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## Michen (20 August 2015)

i don't see how anyone can say it's pain given she does it in completely specific circumstances aka hacking alone and that the nappy rears are quickly worked through. I could understand if I could barely get her to go forward in the school without her rearing but she's still a lovely ride in the school. The mare looked incredible when the owner rode her yesterday (pre hacking). Truly lovely. Sob! 




RunToEarth said:



			I wish people would stop equating rearing to kissing spine. Horses rear for reasons other than kissing spine.
		
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## gunnergundog (20 August 2015)

Just one word of warning re the Small Claims process.........yes, it costs very little; yes, it is very straight forwards and not at all intimidating.  However, in my experience, even if the case is found in your favour there is no guarantee that you will get your money - or at least any time soon.

You need to be aware of how people sign over their 'assets' to their partners/other family members in order to avoid payment/recovery of debt.  They come up with all sorts of dependents and ensure that - if you are lucky - you get a payment order of something stupid like 50pence per week!!!!  I kid you not.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

*opens another packet of cigarettes and considers opening a bottle of wine before 6pm*

Oh joy!




gunnergundog said:



			Just one word of warning re the Small Claims process.........yes, it costs very little; yes, it is very straight forwards and not at all intimidating.  However, in my experience, even if the case is found in your favour there is no guarantee that you will get your money - or at least any time soon.

You need to be aware of how people sign over their 'assets' to their partners/other family members in order to avoid payment/recovery of debt.  They come up with all sorts of dependents and ensure that - if you are lucky - you get a payment order of something stupid like 50pence per week!!!!  I kid you not.
		
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## Equi (20 August 2015)

gunnergundog said:



			Just one word of warning re the Small Claims process.........yes, it costs very little; yes, it is very straight forwards and not at all intimidating.  However, in my experience, even if the case is found in your favour there is no guarantee that you will get your money - or at least any time soon.

You need to be aware of how people sign over their 'assets' to their partners/other family members in order to avoid payment/recovery of debt.  They come up with all sorts of dependents and ensure that - if you are lucky - you get a payment order of something stupid like 50pence per week!!!!  I kid you not.
		
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Yes my family had to deal with this unfortunately. A bill into the thousands and they paid £50 a month. It had to be collected in person or we would never have seen it and they lived in the ******** of nowhere so the petrol money took half the £50 away anyway.


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## fatpiggy (20 August 2015)

hihosilver said:



			I feel for you but if it were me I would want to do the right thing and take responsibility of my horse-because she is your horse now. I would stop the meter running and PTS. Yes you have lost 4k- but not a life. You will soon have that 4k back by not having a horse in the horrid winter. You should not be even considering breeding from her. What on earth is the point of that? She may have KS and you are breeding from her! Please cut your loses, stay safe and keep others safe by doing the right thing fro this poor mare.
		
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Have you read ANY of the posts on this thread?  Take a chill pill and stop being hysterical.  Then you might actually understand what is and what isn't going on.


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## RunToEarth (20 August 2015)

hihosilver said:



			You should not be even considering breeding from her. What on earth is the point of that?
		
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On a side note - is indiscriminate breeding in horses some how morally more unacceptable than say... dogs?


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## webble (20 August 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			On a side note - is indiscriminate breeding in horses some how morally more unacceptable than say... dogs?
		
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No I think both are awful


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## Amymay (20 August 2015)

Let's stay on track girls...


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## Mooseontheloose (20 August 2015)

Actually you do not have to keep the horse if you are going to court providing you are seen to be mitigating your losses as efficiently as possible. However you would have to do the first three letters threatening legal action and see what the response is.
The whole idea about the small claims court is that you might not get your money but you shouldn't lose a whole lot more either. You should write and ask for the horse to be taken back and your money returned. Follow up a week later if no response. Get a solicitors letter if that fails. Then go to SCC.

You should not on any account breed from her or let anyone else. Whether her issues are mental or physical her reaction is extreme. Many horses go on for years in pain without ever rearing, poor things, and this shows a lack of self preservation on behalf of the horse.
If she was sold as a school mistress she patently isn't. Ask for and get your money back.


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## paddy555 (20 August 2015)

milliepops said:



			Specifically on this point, it would be much much better for Michen if she doesn't do this (I very much doubt she's planning to  ) there's a sticky on the forum basically to the effect that discussions that identify dealers are totally against forum Ts & Cs. Michen is getting some useful advice on this thread and it would be a shame for this & any subsequent threads to be pulled.

....would have been a useful thing for others, were it not against da rules 

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Ok, didn't realise about the rules. Sorry.


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## Ali27 (20 August 2015)

Michen said:



			i don't see how anyone can say it's pain given she does it in completely specific circumstances aka hacking alone and that the nappy rears are quickly worked through. I could understand if I could barely get her to go forward in the school without her rearing but she's still a lovely ride in the school. The mare looked incredible when the owner rode her yesterday (pre hacking). Truly lovely. Sob!
		
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Our pony ever reared and spooked when hacking alone too! She was always perfect in company! She was diagnosed with ulcers and think she must have had them for years! I think that the stress of hacking alone made the pain unbearable! For the sake of £25 then the succeed test might give you an answer?


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## southerncomfort (20 August 2015)

amymay said:



			Completely agree!!

Do not be a mug.  You must absolutely play hard ball on this.
		
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Absolutely agree with this.  She is in the wrong here.  You tell her what you want, don't let her dictate terms.

She has already proved she can't be trusted Michen so definately don't accept a payment plan.


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## MDB (20 August 2015)

southerncomfort said:



			Absolutely agree with this.  She is in the wrong here.  You tell her what you want, don't let her dictate terms.

She has already proved she can't be trusted Michen so definately don't accept a payment plan.
		
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Hi Michen,

I haven't read all the replies but wanted to say that I also would be going all out to get my money back and I would not accept a payment plan. So sorry to hear of your ongoing problems. I wouldn't ride her either, it isn't worth the risk. I wish you the very best of luck, I really think you have a strong case and a lot of evidence and witnesses that demonstrate that this mare is clearly not a school mistress.


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## zaminda (20 August 2015)

A friend of mine bought a horse from someone which later turned out to be dangerous. Was sold to him as green but safe, which was within his capabilities. He tried and failed to persuade her to take the horse back, so he took her to court. She tried every trick in the book, including claiming someone else owned the horse. It went to court and she failed to turn up. She then turned up, with a lawyer. The judge then asked my friend if he wanted to put it on hold and refile including damages and costs, (he broke his wrist, and had the horse x rayed from top to bottom, plus had lots of experts involved) at this point the woman agreed to take the horse back. You cannot be awarded court costs, and neither can she.
Personally I would put in writing that you want her to take the horse back as it is not as described, and if she refuses, take her to court.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

Thanks all. Still waiting to hear back from seller. Letter will be sent recorded in next few days if no response. 

I also got the mares behaviour on long reins today on video. And will be getting a BHS Instructor (mine is not qualified and works in reputation) to witness mares behaviour.

I will not be riding the horse again, I just can't do it even in situations where I know she will be ok. 

Ball is rolling!


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## Ali27 (20 August 2015)

Sorry but not read the whole thread! Did you try the mare out hacking on her own when you tried her out?


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

No I rode her in school and then rode her in a field next to school. Advert States she hacks alone and in company though.  




Ali27 said:



			Sorry but not read the whole thread! Did you try the mare out hacking on her own when you tried her out?
		
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## Ali27 (20 August 2015)

Michen said:



			No I rode her in school and then rode her in a field next to school. Advert States she hacks alone and in company though.
		
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I know someone else that bought a horse without hacking it out! It too napped and reared when it went out on it's own or in front! Our mare reared and spinned on her own when we tried her out but that didn't bother me as long as she was fine in company! It took me a while to solve the issue but she now hacks out beautifully but think ulcers were definitely not helping the situation! I would never take the word of a seller and would always try a horse out in every possible situation!


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## Orangehorse (20 August 2015)

Just a thought - would she be a hunter, always goes out in company?  I know someone who bought a horse for hacking, very quiet, well mannered, steady, etc, just what she wanted.  But it wouldn't go out of the drive gates by itself.  (It didn't rear, just planted).  It had never been hacked by itself, it had always had company.  After trying for a while she gave up and turned it out to grass.

Someone came along and bought it for hunting and as far as I know it was fine.


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## Michen (20 August 2015)

Yeh she would be a fab hunter. She was great on fun ride with horses galloping past her all over the place. Didn't so much as throw a buck or get in the slightest bit hyped up. 




Orangehorse said:



			Just a thought - would she be a hunter, always goes out in company?  I know someone who bought a horse for hacking, very quiet, well mannered, steady, etc, just what she wanted.  But it wouldn't go out of the drive gates by itself.  (It didn't rear, just planted).  It had never been hacked by itself, it had always had company.  After trying for a while she gave up and turned it out to grass.

Someone came along and bought it for hunting and as far as I know it was fine.
		
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## Ali27 (20 August 2015)

Also, our mare hacks out on her own with a confident rider but I wouldn't trust her with anyone who wasn't 100% confident. She is such a sensitive mare and takes confidence from her rider!


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## Amymay (20 August 2015)

Could be the answer for her.


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## Equi (20 August 2015)

If she doesn't end up taking her back I do think there is a home for this mare. She just gets far too anxious when alone and a lot of horses do. She's maybe just not the one for you.


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## gunnergundog (20 August 2015)

Michen said:



			And will be getting a BHS Instructor (mine is not qualified and works in reputation) to witness mares behaviour.
QUOTE]

Am not 100% sure of current situation but it used to be that only a FBHS could act as an expert witness in court.  May be worth checking out.....quick call to BHS??
		
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## RunToEarth (20 August 2015)

Hunter still need to be exercised though - and even if it's on a hunting yard, what happens when you ask the mare to stand on point away from the field? 

Michen, I would send proof of postage rather than recorded as it demonstrates you have posted and doesn't require the seller to sign accepting delivery - often ends up in post office sorting room awaiting recovery!


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## hihosilver (20 August 2015)

poor you.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 August 2015)

Do you really need an Expert Witness, the mare is clearly not as sold, you are a credible person, the vendor is not.
An expert witness [costs more money], is there to determine in the case where it is a matter for judgement, here there is no dispute, the behaviour is unacceptable and is unsafe. The courts won't need evidence of running this as a business from Companies House, this is only for limited companies.
I gave you advice before, and stand by it, you should not run around the country looking for purchasers, you won't get rid of her and get your money and expenses back.
I think you should start small claims proceedings. and tell Customs and Excise to investigate, they won't like that.
Anyone buying this mare knowing the problem would offer less than £500, probably a lot less, and once you get down to those values, you know what happens ....... the cycle is repeated and the mare gets more and more dangerous.


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## DressageCob (20 August 2015)

If it is just an instructor watching the horse and reporting what they see it is not an expert witness. it's a witness of fact. At this stage that is better (cheaper and you need the court's permission for an expert witness while you can have as many witnesses of fact as you like).


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## Michen (21 August 2015)

I am and have and mare is turned away until further notice  ball rolling as of today xx




Bonkers2 said:



			Do you really need an Expert Witness, the mare is clearly not as sold, you are a credible person, the vendor is not.
An expert witness [costs more money], is there to determine in the case where it is a matter for judgement, here there is no dispute, the behaviour is unacceptable and is unsafe. The courts won't need evidence of running this as a business from Companies House, this is only for limited companies.
I gave you advice before, and stand by it, you should not run around the country looking for purchasers, you won't get rid of her and get your money and expenses back.
I think you should start small claims proceedings. and tell Customs and Excise to investigate, they won't like that.
Anyone buying this mare knowing the problem would offer less than £500, probably a lot less, and once you get down to those values, you know what happens ....... the cycle is repeated and the mare gets more and more dangerous.
		
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## jhoward (21 August 2015)

theres a group on facebook called dodgy dealers the truth.. maybe worth a post on there. 

many years ago I bought a mare off this very forum.. grade c showjumper but had so many issues ridden and on the floor that i bought her for meat money.. its a happy story.. but not an easy one theres a long long thread on her and the journey i went on her.. i will pm you a link 

as not only may it help you in the things you do it will help you relise that some horses are buggered up by us peole but can come good. 

ive always liked a chalenged though..


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## Michen (21 August 2015)

She's on there as a member. How ironic.  



jhoward said:



			theres a group on facebook called dodgy dealers the truth.. maybe worth a post on there. 

many years ago I bought a mare off this very forum.. grade c showjumper but had so many issues ridden and on the floor that i bought her for meat money.. its a happy story.. but not an easy one theres a long long thread on her and the journey i went on her.. i will pm you a link 

as not only may it help you in the things you do it will help you relise that some horses are buggered up by us peole but can come good. 

ive always liked a chalenged though..
		
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## jhoward (21 August 2015)

Michen said:



			She's on there as a member. How ironic.
		
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google her name with things like horses for sale after.. 

and google her phone number that should help bring up previous ads.. you have to of sold i think.. 6 horses in a year to be classed as a dealer..


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 August 2015)

jhoward said:



			theres a group on facebook called dodgy dealers the truth.. maybe worth a post on there. 

many years ago I bought a mare off this very forum.. grade c showjumper but had so many issues ridden and on the floor that i bought her for meat money.. its a happy story.. but not an easy one theres a long long thread on her and the journey i went on her.. i will pm you a link 

as not only may it help you in the things you do it will help you relise that some horses are buggered up by us peole but can come good. 

ive always liked a chalenged though..
		
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I think Michen could do with a break from challenges tbh.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 August 2015)

jhoward said:



			google her name with things like horses for sale after.. 

and google her phone number that should help bring up previous ads.. you have to of sold i think.. 6 horses in a year to be classed as a dealer..
		
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I don't think so, to be classed as a business you might only sell one or two, the taxman has a good idea of what is going on, the fact they paid someone to ride for them, on a horse which was bought cheap and sold dear with a such a warranty is evdence enough, ie the purchase was done with intent to sell at a profit.


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## jhoward (21 August 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I don't think so, to be classed as a business you might only sell one or two, the taxman has a good idea of what is going on, the fact they paid someone to ride for them, on a horse which was bought cheap and sold dear with a such a warranty is evdence enough, ie the purchase was done with intent to sell at a profit.
		
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i used to sell horses for a living and there are clarifications on what a "dealer" is , and just how many horses have to be sold per year to be classed as such. 

a business and a dealer .. of any items are two seperate things.

i think.. theres more when you read into the sales of goods act.. I could be out of date as it was many years ago i had my business.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 August 2015)

The essence of the case is "the goods are not fit for purpose", even with a private sale the vendor has to be truthful, it is just easier to take a business to court and have greater expectation of success.


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## cobgoblin (21 August 2015)

With regard to the Dodgy Dealers website,you can ask admin to put an anonymous query up for you, or a friend can ask anonymously for you, just asking 'has anyone bought from this person?' It doesn't matter if they are a member, if people have something to say, they will say it.
I don't think there is a legal definition of a horse dealer, but I seem to remember that the sales of goods act takes it as three per year.

So sorry you're having to go through this OP.
I wish you the very best of luck!


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## stormox (21 August 2015)

Nowadays most selling sites you have to click for number so the ads dont show up if you google the phone number. But I think putting a post on 'Horse dealers- the good the bad and the ugly' is a great idea, you never know what experiences other people have had, and even if one person has had a bad experience it would help your case.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 August 2015)

I think this idea of "dealer" is not recognised in law, why should it be? The vendor sold goods which are not as described. The vendor is experienced in horse matters, the purchasor is less so, but lying about the goods is misrepresentation of fact. The purchaser contracted to buy a horse as described by vendor and it is not as described. That is the fact.
The court is unlikely to find in the favoour of the vendor, and should accept the purchasers statement of costs, if they are set out clearly on A4, with one and a half line spacing,  easy to read, and bullet pointed or in short clear paragraphs.


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## criso (21 August 2015)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/horse-care/buying-selling-advice/buying-a-horse-your-rights-39942

http://www.leathesprior.co.uk/resources/news/115/


Not sure about the definition of a dealer but there is a difference in law for buying between a dealer and a private sale (as with cars, washing machines etc) so demonstrating that this was a business sale will make a big difference.


If a dealer you don't have to prove she knew about the issue just that it's not fit for purpose, the horse was sold as a schoolmistress and she clearly isn't so you have a very strong case.
If a private sale then you would need to show she knew that the horse had issues and that's quite tricky.  You would then need the statements from previous owners to say they told them about the issue and the employee.

I wonder if the £500 she bought the horse for would be evidence as a horse of that quality would not be buyable for that unless it had issues of sort some of issue


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## Michen (21 August 2015)

You are exaclty right with that last point Criso and it is my biggest hope and argument though she claims she paid 1k. Regardless that screams a problem horse as no horse with her breeding, paces and schooling would be worth that without some sort of issue. 

Letter sent, all I can do now is wait. 





criso said:



http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/horse-care/buying-selling-advice/buying-a-horse-your-rights-39942

http://www.leathesprior.co.uk/resources/news/115/


Not sure about the definition of a dealer but there is a difference in law for buying between a dealer and a private sale (as with cars, washing machines etc) so demonstrating that this was a business sale will make a big difference.


If a dealer you don't have to prove she knew about the issue just that it's not fit for purpose, the horse was sold as a schoolmistress and she clearly isn't so you have a very strong case.
If a private sale then you would need to show she knew that the horse had issues and that's quite tricky.  You would then need the statements from previous owners to say they told them about the issue and the employee.

I wonder if the £500 she bought the horse for would be evidence as a horse of that quality would not be buyable for that unless it had issues of sort some of issue
		
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## madlady (21 August 2015)

Michen I have absolutely no advice to add, I just wanted to offer a virtual hug and send along some positive vibes for this horrendous situation getting resolved for you.


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## Michen (21 August 2015)

Thank you  xxx




madlady said:



			Michen I have absolutely no advice to add, I just wanted to offer a virtual hug and send along some positive vibes for this horrendous situation getting resolved for you.
		
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## unicornystar (21 August 2015)

Please don't pass this mare on.  Friend (pro rider) took on a horse for schooling, was not told of it's "habit" of flipping and rearing (totally bloody irresponsible) and horse flipped with him, crushed him and he still several years on suffers from injuries, ruined his business and livelihood and he was incredible rider.

Having had a nappy TB who bucked rather than reared alone, or at xc starts, this behaviour is indeed learned, and once they start.....

Breed from it?  NO please don't!

PTS? sounds harsh but it is the kindest thing and most responsible thing you can do.  Although......having paid a £1 for current horse who is fantastic (within his safety boundaries) and I have put a LOT of work in, he is now hacking solo, but STILL a year on is capable of going upright, not as much and rare now BUT if he was sharp he wouldn't be here now, it is only as he is the size of an elephant and I get LOTS of warning before an episode and can avoid it.

If this mare is also doing it long reining I just cannot see a magic cure..

Don't let dealer intimidate you, no reason why you cannot go guns blazing, tell her how it as and state you have taken legal advice and are offering her the chance to take the horse back and refund you in full, hold your nerve.....


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## Irish gal (21 August 2015)

In terms of court/small claims court the problem, even if you win, is how to enforce the judgement. I was thinking of taking some one to court who I own horses in partnership with, after the partner effectively seized the horses and cut communication with me, claiming they were solely his. My problem is that I know this person has already been sued by different people and his standard reaction to a solicitors letter is to roll it in a ball and throw it in the fire. 

If a judgement is against him, he simply doesn't pay. His solicitor claims this guy hasn't a penny and makes a payment plan for like &#8364;20/month, which the guy still doesn't bother to pay and this all rumbles on for years. I would love to hear about this from a lawyer but it seems from what I can see that judgments are not enforced; yet you will still have the legal bills to pay...Probably not what you want to hear but I would have little faith in the law in terms of getting your money back.


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## Barnacle (21 August 2015)

Having had a nappy TB who bucked rather than reared alone, or at xc starts, this behaviour is indeed learned, and once they start.....

Breed from it? NO please don't!
		
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Don't get me wrong, I don't really advocate breeding from any horse (we have enough for now!), but the reaction in this thread is just a bit odd. I'm picking out this post but others have implied the same. Given that this behaviour is learned, breeding from the horse shouldn't be such a massive no-no. This horse only rears in one context - when going out alone. It's a fear/confidence issue. No one should be handed the horse without being told what she does - of course not. But if she's from good lines and someone wants her as a broodmare, I really don't understand all the outrage. Her family history doesn't suggest anything heritable in her behaviour - and neither does the behaviour itself.


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## Amymay (21 August 2015)

The mare is temperamentaly unsound. All behaviour is learnt.


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## Fun Times (21 August 2015)

madlady said:



			Michen I have absolutely no advice to add, I just wanted to offer a virtual hug and send along some positive vibes for this horrendous situation getting resolved for you.
		
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Yeah me too Michen. You don't deserve this level of crap after what happened with Torres. I really hope you get some sort of resolution that works for you and enables you to vet a decent, honest, sound horse.


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## OWLIE185 (21 August 2015)

Irish Gal!  Have you not heard of the High Court Enforcement officers???
Get the debt referred to the High Court and then get a High Court Enforcement officer to enforce the judgement.  They will turn up un-announced on the debtors doorstep and If they don't cough up immediately they will take anything and everything away that they own (including motor vehicles).


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## Barnacle (21 August 2015)

amymay said:



			The mare is temperamentaly unsound. All behaviour is learnt.
		
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Well no... That's not true at all.


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## ycbm (21 August 2015)

amymay said:



			The mare is temperamentaly unsound. All behaviour is learnt.
		
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Not all behaviour is learned, but the fact is that at some point this mare chose to stand on her back legs in situations where most other horses, however poorly ridden, wouldn't. She wasn't taught to do it, it was her choice to do it.  I've bought several horses who have been a challenge to get to hack alone, but they stop and try to turn round, sometimes they buck,they hop,  but not one has ever full on reared. So I agree with your first bit, she's temperamentally unsound to put her own life in such danger,  and breeding from her would be a risk I wouldn't take, personally.

Michen I hope you are managing to keep same through all this.


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## Amymay (21 August 2015)

Barnacle said:



			Well no... That's not true at all.
		
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Which part?


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## Michen (21 August 2015)

Guys I just wanted to update you on this before I likely have to sign something keeping my mouth shut. I know you will all have various opinions and trust me I've tried negotiating but it looks like the horse will be going back at a loss of 1k to me. I know it's despicably wrong and I cannot tell you how cross all my friends and family are and how utterly gutted I am. I am also fully aware and feeling incredibly guilty that I'm not making an example out of her and taking it as far as I can. But I am 23, life is not a breeze at the best of times and it's just too much for me to deal with alongside other difficulties and trying to hold down a career. It's distracted me so much from my work already.   

Yes I have an excellent case to drag it through the courts but quite frankly the stress is actually making me ill. I'm not a stressy sort of person at the best of times but this has affected me hugely. I feel like I have been on this nightmare treadmill since buying Torres and that if I push myself further with this I will crumble.  And she probably knows it. I need to move forward from this and draw a line under it. I could hold out and negotiate it further and continue to push but I just need this utter nightmare over with and the horse gone. 

Trust me, no one is more spitting mad and frustrated than I am but there are times in life when I guess you just have to be thankful that you walked away physically unharmed and this is one of them. 

I could not be more sad and angry that I now have a grand less to spend on a horse and that's not to mention having purchased a saddle, had it fitted, routine physio, full set of shoes inc stud holes, insurance x 2, all of her other costs livery/hay/bedding/new rugs for the last month where you can well imagine she's been looked after so well and wanted for nothing.

I cannot thank everyone on here enough for the advice, help and support you have given. It humbled me with Torres and its humbled me again with this. And a particular person on here who, without their help, I wouldn't have even known where to begin.


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## ITPersonnage (21 August 2015)

Words fail me, i am in awe of you for this and the Torres saga, well done and I can only hope to be as grown up as you one day Edited to say, I'm 51...


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## MotherOfChickens (21 August 2015)

I'm sorry you've lost out Michen, but sooner it's over, sooner you can move on.


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## Michen (21 August 2015)

ITPersonnage said:



			Words fail me, i am in awe of you for this and the Torres saga, well done and I can only hope to be as grown up as you one day Edited to say, I'm 51...
		
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If you mean my recent post I actually just feel incredibly weak and pathetic about the whole thing. God 12 months ago I would have absolutely wiped the floor with her and thrown everything at it that I possibly could but it's just one too many battle at the moment - I am tired


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## ycbm (21 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Guys I just wanted to update you on this before I likely have to sign something keeping my mouth shut. I know you will all have various opinions and trust me I've tried negotiating but it looks like the horse will be going back at a loss of 1k to me. I know it's despicably wrong and I cannot tell you how cross all my friends and family are and how utterly gutted I am. I am also fully aware and feeling incredibly guilty that I'm not making an example out of her and taking it as far as I can. But I am 23, life is not a breeze at the best of times and it's just too much for me to deal with alongside other difficulties and trying to hold down a career. It's distracted me so much from my work already.   

Yes I have an excellent case to drag it through the courts but quite frankly the stress is actually making me ill. I'm not a stressy sort of person at the best of times but this has affected me hugely. I feel like I have been on this nightmare treadmill since buying Torres and that if I push myself further with this I will crumble.  And she probably knows it. I need to move forward from this and draw a line under it. I could hold out and negotiate it further and continue to push but I just need this utter nightmare over with and the horse gone. 

Trust me, no one is more spitting mad and frustrated than I am but there are times in life when I guess you just have to be thankful that you walked away physically unharmed and this is one of them. 

I could not be more sad and angry that I now have a grand less to spend on a horse and that's not to mention having purchased a saddle, had it fitted, routine physio, full set of shoes inc stud holes, insurance x 2, all of her other costs livery/hay/bedding/new rugs for the last month where you can well imagine she's been looked after so well and wanted for nothing.

I cannot thank everyone on here enough for the advice, help and support you have given. It humbled me with Torres and its humbled me again with this. And a particular person on here who, without their help, I wouldn't have even known where to begin.
		
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You have made the right decision, and I think you have negotiated a settlement exceptionally well. Send her back, she's not your responsibility, you've had her such a short time. Sign the form, have a large drink, take a deep breath ....... and start again!


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## stormox (21 August 2015)

I still think it would be a good idea to 'name and shame' on a FB site, or anywhere, even if you do it anonymously, it might save some other innocent person going through the same nightmare.


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## Amymay (21 August 2015)

It's your decision at the end of the day.

Just make sure you get cold, hard cash.

And don't sign a piece of paper telling you to be quiet. 

Interesting turn around by seller though. I'd love to know how she justifies the £1k deduction.


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## Michen (21 August 2015)

As apparently I wrecked the horse! Hilarious. It will be cash. 



amymay said:



			It's your decision at the end of the day.

Just make sure you get cold, hard cash.

And don't sign a piece of paper telling you to be quiet. 

Interesting turn around by seller though. I'd love to know how she justifies the £1k deduction.
		
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## touchstone (21 August 2015)

I think you're doing the right thing, nothing is worth so much stress that your health is affected.  Good luck, I hope any future purchase turns out perfect for you.


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## Peregrine Falcon (21 August 2015)

Well done for getting this far!  Gosh, what a horrible thing for you to have to go through so soon after Torres.  

Make sure you take a money checker pen and check every note in front of her!  

A stiff drink is in order I think. ((HUGS))


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## Amymay (21 August 2015)

Michen said:



			As apparently I wrecked the horse! Hilarious. It will be cash.
		
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Well on that basis alone I'd be telling her to go clingfilm herself.

Her solicitor (if she has one), has told het she doesn't have a leg to stand on. So rather than face court and a ruined reputation she's offering you what she thinks she can get away with.

I respect your position, but it would be all or nothing for me.


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## fuzzymooch (21 August 2015)

Michen said:



			If you mean my recent post I actually just feel incredibly weak and pathetic about the whole thing. God 12 months ago I would have absolutely wiped the floor with her and thrown everything at it that I possibly could but it's just one too many battle at the moment - I am tired 

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Michen,

first off big internet hugs.  Please don't feel weak or pathetic, I've felt that way too before when you just are too tired to fight any more.  Give it time and I promise you'll get back to being the person who would 'wipe the floor with her' .  In the mean time as someone else said, take a deep breath (glass of wine) and regroup.  There will be some little horse out there just waiting for you to find them and take them to a loving home.  When you're ready.


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## crabbymare (21 August 2015)

You are doing the right thing for you but what a shame you had to lose so much money to someone like that. is  there any way you can warn people in the area about the mare or get pictures or her name online before you have to sign the paper? it would be a great help if a future owner had a problem. I hope you manage to find yourself a lovely horse and manage to have a lot of fun with it after all you have gone through


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## Meredith (21 August 2015)

Quote as above..." There will be some little horse out there just waiting for you to find them and take them to a loving home. When you're ready."
Sending internet hugs, Michen.


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## LilacWillow (21 August 2015)

Just wanted to say, that I've read through all your threads about this mare, and I feel terribly sorry for you.

Even if you were willing to work through her behaviour, she was misrepresented and not worth the money, which in the current market is fair bit, even for a schoolmistress.

If the seller was honest and didn't know about the problem, she'd have been rather shocked by the news and would have taken her straight back imo.

I also think that, by claiming she isn't a dealer, she thinks she can get away with cash in hand rather than putting it through legally, which as someone else mentioned, once she's taken to court and you've proved she is a dealer, revenue will be onto her, and she will be in even more trouble.

Still really cheeky of her to keep that 1k, but then again that just shows what an idiot she is. I don't blame you for resolving it like this, it's one very stressful situation nobody wants to be in, but I'm glad you have reached a resolution; the outcome could have been much, much, worse.

Best of luck... and lots of hugs!


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## Clannad48 (21 August 2015)

Peregrine Falcon said:



			Make sure you take a money checker pen and check every note in front of her!  

This is a really good idea^^

Sorry to hear how this has resolved but even with all that has happened to you recently you will be a stronger person at the end of it.

A stiff drink is definitely required -
		
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## MyBoyChe (21 August 2015)

FWIW I think youve made the right decision for you and at this time.  I know from experience how wearing it all is and how it brings you down.  Yes, its a large amount to lose but at what cost to your health and sanity!  Take her money, wave goodbye to this little mare and move on.  I also know that is easier said than done.  Maybe there is someone on here who knows of the perfect horse for you, £3k is still a reasonable budget to find what you are looking for and you know how much we all like shopping  Once again, Im so sorry you have had this awful experience, I really dont know how some people sleep at night.  Its not just the human angle is it, its the horses that suffer too.  Oh, and echo the very large glass of something later x


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## palo1 (21 August 2015)

Michen, I went through a similar experience some years ago - similarly having just lost a much loved horse.  It was crap but once resolved (pretty unsatisfactorily) I was able to move on and now have a fantastic horse that I can truly enjoy.  I think Winston Churchill very wisely once said 'If you find you are going through hell, keep going!'

Send the mare back for whatever you can, have a short break then find yourself a nice one: they are certainly out there.  Best of luck.


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## wren123 (21 August 2015)

Michen, I haven't contributed earlier because I have no legal knowledge to give you the correct advice, but I have felt so sad for you. I followed your saga with Torres and how hard you worked to mend him.
I really think you have done the right thing for your own sanity, sending you a big virtural hug!


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## Slightlyconfused (21 August 2015)

fuzzymooch said:



			Michen,

first off big internet hugs.  Please don't feel weak or pathetic, I've felt that way too before when you just are too tired to fight any more.  Give it time and I promise you'll get back to being the person who would 'wipe the floor with her' .  In the mean time as someone else said, take a deep breath (glass of wine) and regroup.  There will be some little horse out there just waiting for you to find them and take them to a loving home.  When you're ready.
		
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This.....I'm struggling to get back to my take no poop from anyone after being worn down. You will get there.


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## SallyBatty (21 August 2015)

So glad the situation is getting resolved now.  You have made the right decision for you at this time.  Sorry I haven't commented before but I know nothing about legal matters.  She may be giving you £1k less than you paid but at least you won't be forking out any more livery/feed/farrier/vet bills on a horse you can't trust to ride any more.  As mentioned above, £3k is still a reasonable budget when it comes to looking for a new horse when you have regrouped and feel ready.


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## Clodagh (21 August 2015)

Sometimes you have to walk away for your own sanity. I think you have done well and I have wasted far more than £1000 on various things over the years. At your age I would not have been nearly as strong as you. Well done.


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## Meowy Catkin (21 August 2015)

I'm so sorry that you have been put through the wringer again. I can completely understand why you have accepted the offer, your mental health is definitely worth taking the 1k loss for. Don't beat yourself up about not taking her to court. I wish you all the luck in the world for finding your new equine partner when this is all over and you are ready to look again.


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## cobgoblin (21 August 2015)

Michen I think you are doing the right thing. Annoying that you have to lose money but £1000 is peanuts when it comes to legal matters.

If it's any consolation, I think you have scared the s**t out of her for this offer to have been made.


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## Goldenstar (21 August 2015)

Sell the saddle , and you will soon save the £1000 when you're not looking after a horse .
Just put it behind you .
And ......better luck next time .


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## Kat (21 August 2015)

In the circumstances that sounds like an excellent result. You could easily  have spent time money and energy trying to get this to court and have come away with mucj less. This way you have a quick resolution and some cash to move on with. 

Might be worth a tip off to trading standards and the inland revenue though.......


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## Michen (21 August 2015)

Thanks all. In the mean time if anyone knows of any 15.2 all rounder types for 3k... Sent em my way!


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## Michen (21 August 2015)

Oh it certainly is!




Kat said:



			In the circumstances that sounds like an excellent result. You could easily  have spent time money and energy trying to get this to court and have come away with mucj less. This way you have a quick resolution and some cash to move on with. 

Might be worth a tip off to trading standards and the inland revenue though.......
		
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## splashgirl45 (21 August 2015)

what a shame for you and the horse...lets hope this person doesn't try the same thing again with her...as others have said maybe take some photos of the horse so you for your records and if this person has only offered this lower amount verbally  I would suggest you get it in writing just so she cannot say she refunded you the full price, as she sounds tricky enough to do that!!!! ...once the horse is back with the dealer you will be able to move on and we can all look out for your perfect horse....hope all goes ok...


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## criso (21 August 2015)

Think about it another way,   You might continue arguing and she offers the full amount in a few months just before it comes to court but you've had the the expense of keeping a horse you can't really do much with.

This way you can move on quickly and have money to get another horse if that's what you want to do.


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## Michen (21 August 2015)

I think I'm more likely to buy a goldfish lol! 

But yes thank you. 



criso said:



			Think about it another way,   You might continue arguing and she offers the full amount in a few months just before it comes to court but you've had the the expense of keeping a horse you can't really do much with.

This way you can move on quickly and have money to get another horse if that's what you want to do.
		
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## Luci07 (21 August 2015)

Interesting thread. You did the right thing for you because for the people who advised going through the courts...yes, she could have won BUT the problem is actually getting the money paid. I knew someone in a similar position and the dealer simply claimed that he was bankrupt, horses didn't belong to him and house was not in his name....as for a young horse rearing..I think the comments have been very strong. There is a big difference between a confirmed rearer and a young horse throwing a strop and I have seen youngsters try this and then stop it as their training went on. Anyway, onwards and upwards and hope you find a lovely horse shortly. You really deserve it!


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## Tobiano (21 August 2015)

Well done! V sensible decision by you I think OP. You've done a lot better in sorting out a rubbish situation than I ever have! And my perfect wonderful horse of a lifetime cost £2750 so you can still get one too   x x


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## Po Knee (21 August 2015)

You have done the right thing in order to move on. Hats off to you.

Somewhere out there your new horse is waiting to find you...I hope it is soon - you need something good to take the taste away. I wish you all the very best for the future. x


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## Remi'sMum (21 August 2015)

Well done on a resolution Michen. What an awful situation so soon after such heartbreak with Torres.

Check out Horses4Homes if you haven't done so already. They're a charity that organises horses with permanent (in most cases) loan homes. 

My mare came through them. After losing 2 horses in the space of 6 months, one to lameness and the second to lymphoma (she was 5 and a very promising dressage prospect, it was tragic) I had no budget left to buy another but found my dream horse through H4H on permanent loan. 

Give the website a look! You just never know!! x


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## Michen (21 August 2015)

Thanks everyone. I'm sure within the next few weeks I'll stop feeling quite so bitter. Definitely not in a rush to find another horse, could do with a few months to get myself straight financially so that I'm in a position to pay for vettings etc anyway but if the right one comes along...

Third time lucky eh?


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## ester (21 August 2015)

Can't stretch to 6k? I know a gem of a horse for that which has looked after my mum doing all sorts the last couple of years (not hers but belongs to a friend  ).

But yes, see what comes along and no rush!


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## Michen (21 August 2015)

I think Natwest would tell me to ****** off seeing as the 4k I spent on a horse was there's anyway  






ester said:



			Can't stretch to 6k? I know a gem of a horse for that which has looked after my mum doing all sorts the last couple of years (not hers but belongs to a friend  ).

But yes, see what comes along and no rush!
		
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## ester (21 August 2015)

Well you know, just in case some long lost great aunt you don't know about dies


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## debsflo (21 August 2015)

For what it's worth I think you have done yourself proud with how you have conducted yourself in such a stressful and horrible situation. I am twice your age and would have been distraught. I think your sanity and health are important and also want to send you a big hug and am sure there is a superstar horse waiting in the wings who will be very lucky to find you.


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## Sheep (21 August 2015)

I'm glad you've got a reasonable result. Hopefully the right horse finds you soon. Good luck!


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## charlie76 (21 August 2015)

I'm glad you got it resolved.... Sort of anyway! Sometimes it's best to cut your losses. I'll keep an ear out for anything that might suit you. X


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## Boulty (21 August 2015)

Sorry to hear how things have worked out but I can see the need to draw a line under it all in the least stressful way possible and move on.  You can't fight on all fronts all the time and I think given the time and stress taking it to small claims court would have cost you then you probably haven't lost out by much doing it this way  (Obviously she SHOULD be offering you the full amount back but heyho that's life I guess!).  Good luck in being 3rd time lucky!


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## Michen (21 August 2015)

She is a total witch quite frankly and I have no doubt she will one day get what she deserves! She tried to accuse me of ruining the horse. Yes... Totally. Grrrr. 




Boulty said:



			Sorry to hear how things have worked out but I can see the need to draw a line under it all in the least stressful way possible and move on.  You can't fight on all fronts all the time and I think given the time and stress taking it to small claims court would have cost you then you probably haven't lost out by much doing it this way  (Obviously she SHOULD be offering you the full amount back but heyho that's life I guess!).  Good luck in being 3rd time lucky!
		
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## Micropony (21 August 2015)

So sorry it hasn't worked out for you with the mare. As others have said, sounds like you've done really well to get as much money back from this dreadful woman as you have. Once you're no longer shelling out for livery and new gear and whatnot I bet you find your savings mount up surprisingly quickly.
Very best of luck for when you feel the time is right to start looking for a new horse. I really hope you find a corker. It will be a lucky animal x


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

hmmm, OK, not sure what the arrangement is, but I would be removing the shoes before she gets it back.
and I would arrange to meet her at her bank [inside it] to see the cash, so you don't need to count. A cheque transaction can be reversed, so no cheques.
Sign her bit of paper then name and shame, see if she wants to sue, unlikely!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

Now you are older you need to be wiser.
What about a loan with a view to buy?
Once all is sorted, write to Tax and VAT people, preferably after she has submitted her self assessment tax form, as she wiil always deny stuff, maybe someone on here working as a taxman can advise?


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## hackneylass2 (22 August 2015)

Wishing you all the best...please heed Bonkers2's advice, Karma will get her in the end, maybe it just needs a helping hand. Not Really Businesses that ARE really businesses need sorting.


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## JanetGeorge (22 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Thanks everyone. I'm sure within the next few weeks I'll stop feeling quite so bitter. Definitely not in a rush to find another horse, could do with a few months to get myself straight financially so that I'm in a position to pay for vettings etc anyway but if the right one comes along...

Third time lucky eh?
		
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I'm pleased you have finally got a resolution.  Don't blame yourself for feeling bitter - you have EVERY right to feel bitter - the only reason to try and stop yourself is the seller is a ghastly, evil cowbag and you are giving it a bit more of a win.  Give yourself a little time - think positive about the future.  I look forward to hearing you've found the right seller and got a great horse.


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## Mahoganybay (22 August 2015)

Have been reading your posts with great sympathy! For what it's worth I think you are doing the right thing, sell the horse back & move on. You never win in terms of stress and frustration with sellers like that, which ever way you think you are winning they change the goal posts.

Similar thing happened to me years ago, horse sold as perfect (yeah right) reared up & over, reared when leading and caused me a shoulder injury I still suffer with today. Seller eventually bought back at half the price I paid for the horse. This was after numerous calls being ignored, threats (from them), tears, small claims court application. In the end I had to deliver the horse back myself (hubbie drove) whilst I was throwing up due to the pain meds I was on from my shoulder injury.

Looking back it was an awful time, as it is for you, but I eventually moved on and have the most wonderful horse now from a honest seller. 

Good luck OP


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

and make sure she signs the receipt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You need a line for her full name and address and a line for your signature and one for your witness.
You can write it out before you meet her, although this is not usual, who cares, you may or [hopefully] may not need the evidence.
If you have the passport do not hand it over till you have everything cut and dried and the money in your account.


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## D66 (22 August 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			hmmm, OK, not sure what the arrangement is, but I would be removing the shoes before she gets it back.
and I would arrange to meet her at her bank [inside it] to see the cash, so you don't need to count. A cheque transaction can be reversed, so no cheques.
Sign her bit of paper then name and shame, see if she wants to sue, unlikely!
		
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I'd just post a picture of the horse rather than name and shame.


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## crabbymare (22 August 2015)

Digger66 said:



			I'd just post a picture of the horse rather than name and shame.
		
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Thats along the lines of my thinking. I would have my name in the passport and also put pictures up on various forums of the horse along with its passported name so  that IF (and I sincerely hope it would nor happen) there was a nasty accident later the history and the point at which the problem was not declared would be traceable. Obviously its also possible that the mare could find a home with someone who  could work round her attitude and all would be well but I would hate for someone to be hurt  because of the way she is.


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## Goldenstar (22 August 2015)

I wish the mare a soft landing in her future in a wonderful home that suits her poor girl.


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## Luci07 (22 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I wish the mare a soft landing in her future in a wonderful home that suits her poor girl.
		
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As do I. The horse was mis sold but that wasn't her fault. I have seen a youngster start rearing and pro didn't react. Simply scratched their head, had a think and changed what they were doing. True rearers are like bolters. In reality there are not many (thank heavens). No shame in admitting you are out of your depth (I have done so in the past) and fact remains...OP was clear about her ability and what she wanted and dealer tried to pull a fast one. Please go onto the FB page about dodgy dealers mentioned earlier and share your story.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

Bolters are rare, if they are completely mad they will kill themselves sooner or later, with or without a rider on board. Most of what people call bolters are horses which take over control and ignore the rider.
Rearers can usually be trained out of it and rarely learn it it if never ridden by someone who can't cope, once the habit is entrained it makes it more difficult [assuming there is no pain]. This one sounds very dangerous, I have to be frank.
I am not here talking about two year old hyperactive TB racehorse fillies, which can throw themselved upside down at will, but usually the lad can get off pdq.


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## Michen (22 August 2015)

Yes I have the passport however i hadn't yet got it put into my name. In fact it's not even in her name it's still in the seller from January. The seller gave me the receipt from her purchase of the horse (no price on it more fool me) and a signature transfer of ownership form but I never did it as the problems cropped up. I will be contacting trading standards before I sign anything. 





Bonkers2 said:



			and make sure she signs the receipt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You need a line for her full name and address and a line for your signature and one for your witness.
You can write it out before you meet her, although this is not usual, who cares, you may or [hopefully] may not need the evidence.
If you have the passport do not hand it over till you have everything cut and dried and the money in your account.
		
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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

You can easily say you sent passport away, then put your name and details on it and post it back when ready. They can't sell it without a passport, it might get lost in the post................
Be ready for problems, have your answer ready, etc etc, 
I trust you have written out all your expenses in detail, and also diary of events, you can keep this in your pocket to present to her as a bill if she backs out at any stage, you add on insurance, farrier, grazing etc, and estimate the cost of keeping her as an ornament at full livery charges. Not sure at what stage you would decide to shoot the mare [!] but it may come to that. you have to have a cost for that, the value of the mare you can estimate at zero as you would not sell it because it could kill someone, it is therefore a liability, say -£500 at this moment.
You still have the option to go to court, and this is the threat you can use if she does not do what you want, use email not texts as you can print these out. Block her.


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## honetpot (22 August 2015)

I think you have done the right thing, the money makes you wince but spending the next few months battling to get your money back while looking after it in winter would be even more heart breaking.
 When the dust has settled go and have a look at some PC schoolmasters on PC classifieds, you will get something that will probably have a FSH that you can check and have some fun.


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## SO1 (22 August 2015)

I think this is a good result at least she is taking the horse back you don't have the stress of going through the courts and you are not having to pay livery and spend time looking after the horse whilst waiting for the court procedures start and conclude.

Hopefully the horse will find a more suitable home and you will find a more suitable horse. Hopefully next time she will not be advertising the horse as a schoolmistress. Regarding the signing of whatever you sign maybe you could agree to not saying anything in return for her agreeing to not advertise the horse as a schoolmistress suitable as someone's first horse, would then still perhaps give you some satisfaction that someone else would not get into the same position as you have done. 

Like others have said you need to make sure you count the money and also ideally have a witness with you.


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## Equi (22 August 2015)

It would be all or nothing for me but I'm a stubborn old mule. Hope it's settled fast and both you and the mare find the partner of a lifetime.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

honetpot said:



			I think you have done the right thing, the money makes you wince but spending the next few months battling to get your money back while looking after it in winter would be even more heart breaking.
 When the dust has settled go and have a look at some PC schoolmasters on PC classifieds, you will get something that will probably have a FSH that you can check and have some fun.
		
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I think OP has made a pragmatic decision, the fact that they have made a realistic offer tells me they absolutely don't want to go to court.
The court procedure is fairly quick, and as long as OP tells then the cost of livery is for example £80 or £100 per week then this is added on until the court settles. However the horse still has to be put down by OP if they don't pay up. All this is so messy and has been considered by the vendor, which is why I think they want the horse back, and are prepared to refund at least some of the cash.
Dealing with these scum is stressful, I have been there several times, once as an innocent v a professional [cost to me for a foal not asked for £3000] and once when the scumbag person who starved my poor horse and still owes me a lot of money [£2000]: she has no intention of payment, owes money all over, so no  point in going to court.


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## Amymay (22 August 2015)

When's the mare being collected?


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## Michen (22 August 2015)

2nd Sep. She offered to pay half now and pick her up this weekend and the rest on the 2nd but that's clearly not an option. Meanwhile I get to look after her and pay livery for her for another two weeks 

Outrageous I inow but nothing I can do about it. She's got me against a wall and knows it. 



amymay said:



			When's the mare being collected?
		
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## stormox (22 August 2015)

I wish people wouldnt talk about the poor mare having to be PTS/Put down. Just because she rears in certain circumstances isnt a death warrant! She may not be Michen's cup of tea but she might be perfect for someone who only wants to ride in company, or school, she might be fine to compete with. I have ridden habitual rearers, one was my favourite mare, she would stand up when she saw something scary, but give her a moment and the adrenaline would go dowwn, shed pause for a moment and walk on. Another was a gelding who I think may have been riggy, he reared when excited.
I know this was mis-sold, and she certainly isnt a 'schoolmistress' but please dont condemn her to death. She could be the right persons perfect horse.


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## Bernster (22 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Thanks everyone. I'm sure within the next few weeks I'll stop feeling quite so bitter. Definitely not in a rush to find another horse, could do with a few months to get myself straight financially so that I'm in a position to pay for vettings etc anyway but if the right one comes along...

Third time lucky eh?
		
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Totally understand how this is the best resolution for you.  I think I'd have done the same in the circs.  Sounds like you've had a bad run of it lately. The only thing I'd add is that you may well benefit from giving yourself a break, maybe take a share or part loan or ride a friends horse. Sounds like you need some fun stress free time and to take your time maybe saving up some cash and then looking again. Although v unlikely you'll have similar problems, you do need to be extra careful with your next purchase, if only to save your sanity !  I know how frustrating it is when you want to buy your own, but given how hard it's been for you, I wonder whether a break from shopping and new horse issues might be in order.


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## Michen (22 August 2015)

It's not a case of her "not being my cup of tea". The mare has a lot of fab things about her, she really does. But going over on the long lines shows no self preservation. 
She naps going down to school occasionally and at comp warm up ring but they are tiny mini rears, hardly off the ground with the odd medium sized one that is easily worked through with a smack on the shoulder. That I could have coped with as would most semi ok riders. I guess the concern would be whether her proper rears would always be limited to hacking alone. I have no doubts a professional could sort her out so long as it was always a professional that rides her from there on, but who knows. It's out of my hands now. 




stormox said:



			I wish people wouldnt talk about the poor mare having to be PTS/Put down. Just because she rears in certain circumstances isnt a death warrant! She may not be Michen's cup of tea but she might be perfect for someone who only wants to ride in company, or school, she might be fine to compete with. I have ridden habitual rearers, one was my favourite mare, she would stand up when she saw something scary, but give her a moment and the adrenaline would go dowwn, shed pause for a moment and walk on. Another was a gelding who I think may have been riggy, he reared when excited.
I know this was mis-sold, and she certainly isnt a 'schoolmistress' but please dont condemn her to death. She could be the right persons perfect horse.
		
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## Michen (22 August 2015)

Indeed. I will be keeping an eye out but won't view anything unless it sounds utterly perfect. We shall see. 



Bernster said:



			Totally understand how this is the best resolution for you.  I think I'd have done the same in the circs.  Sounds like you've had a bad run of it lately. The only thing I'd add is that you may well benefit from giving yourself a break, maybe take a share or part loan or ride a friends horse. Sounds like you need some fun stress free time and to take your time maybe saving up some cash and then looking again. Although v unlikely you'll have similar problems, you do need to be extra careful with your next purchase, if only to save your sanity !  I know how frustrating it is when you want to buy your own, but given how hard it's been for you, I wonder whether a break from shopping and new horse issues might be in order.
		
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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

I mentioned pts because the vendor may not fullfil promises and op has to get rid of it somehow, so in her costs she has to include pts costs. she cant keep it indefinately. Pts is a known cost. Michen will find a good home for it if vendor backs down.
Sold from the field with no warranty she will be lucky to get something above meat money..
The other problem is that the vendor may be watching this post, it is easy enough to know who she is ........... and likely Michen mentioned her previous problem.


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## stormox (22 August 2015)

What I meant, Michen, is she isnt the horse for you, but she might be perfect for somebody. It seems rather drastic for people to be saying euthanise her, especially as they dont even know her!
A lot of horses dont have much sense of self-preservation, or why would they shy from a paper bag into the path of a lorry? Theres no such thing as the perfect horse, only one whos faults you can live with. Someone might find they can live with her faults. Good luck with your horse hunting- there will be one out there for you.


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## Equi (22 August 2015)

stormox said:



			Theres no such thing as the perfect horse, only one whos faults you can live with.
		
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That's a nice quote


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## stormox (22 August 2015)

applies to husbands (or wives) too


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

stormox said:



			? Theres no such thing as the perfect horse, only one whos faults you can live with. Someone might find they can live with her faults. .
		
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Its not a matter of "living with it" when the horse is  dangerous, who would live with that! 
The horse was sold as a schoolmaster but it is a horse with a previous history, and when they start to rear again they are more dificult to turn around, each time they are "sorted" it gets worse.
I had a horse who was difficult, but good riders enjoyed riding him because he was a challenge, if he had been dangerous, as Michen describes I would not have allowed anyone to ride him. As it was I instructed that that he had to brought in from field in his bridle, and not by a child. He would not have been dangerous, in that he would not attack anyone, but he was very reactive in the early days, and his reaction was to jump on top of you.... OK if you are a horse, or strong experienced adult,  but not if you are a small person.


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## Michen (22 August 2015)

I think given that then horse has been this way inclined for 3/4 years it would be a hell of a job to fix her completely. Who knows, maybe there is some underlying physical issue. I don't think so, I believe it's a behavioural thing given the situations it arises. 

Poor bloody mare either way!





Bonkers2 said:



			Its not a matter of "living with it" when the horse is  dangerous, who would live with that! 
The horse was sold as a schoolmaster but it is a horse with a previous history, and when they start to rear again they are more dificult to turn around, each time they are "sorted" it gets worse.
I had a horse who was difficult, but good riders enjoyed riding him because he was a challenge, if he had been dangerous, as Michen describes I would not have allowed anyone to ride him. As it was I instructed that that he had to brought in from field in his bridle, and not by a child. He would not have been dangerous, in that he would not attack anyone, but he was very reactive in the early days, and his reaction was to jump on top of you.... OK if you are a horse, or strong experienced adult,  but not if you are a small person.
		
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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

Michen said:



			2nd Sep. She offered to pay half now and pick her up this weekend and the rest on the 2nd but that's clearly not an option. Meanwhile I get to look after her and pay livery for her for another two weeks 

Outrageous I inow but nothing I can do about it. She's got me against a wall and knows it.
		
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It up to you, she is a complete b"itch, , I am an observer, and I would not allow this, if she now breaks her contract, just send her the account, ongoing,  and take her to court. You will win.


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## oldie48 (22 August 2015)

Michen, I have read most of the posts but not all so sorry if this has been covered. Please make sure that when they come to collect the horse that you have the money either in cash or in your bank account before they load the horse. These are not honest people and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. Make sure you have someone with you as well. always useful to have a witness. It seems like a pretty scam to me, to sell a horse then buy it back for a lot less whilst it's been kept, fed and shod at someone else's expense. A friend bought a mare from a dealer in Milton Keynes, that also reared and was not as described. She ended up returning the horse and waiting for her money until the mare was sold, again at less than she had paid. There are some real scoundrels around. I know you have made your decision but I just wanted to confirm that under the 1979 sale of goods act, the horse was miss sold ie did not match the advertisement and you would have got your money back through the small claims court. whether or not the seller is a dealer or selling privately is completely immaterial and people like this benefit from our reluctance to claim our rights. I sincerely hope everything turns out well for you and I feel so sorry that yet again you've had a hard time. Best wishes.


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## MagicMelon (22 August 2015)

Michen said:



			And what do I do with her in the mean time? I'm happy to hack her out in company and ride her in the school etc, but I certainly won't ever long line her out on a hack or attempt to hack her alone again.
		
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So she's totally ok to hack out in company and in the school?  To be fair, the odd horse won't hack on their own (for whatever reason) so not everyone expects to hack out alone. If she is 100% fine at all other times then you could sell her but state very clearly she is dangerous to hack alone? If she's a nice competition sort, a lot of people won't even care she doesn't hack alone so it wouldn't be an issue for them. Sounds awful what the seller is doing though, not acceptable at all. Did she never hack the horse out herself?  Not sure how else you'll get your money back though if you don't spend thousands on solicitor letters   Although, one letter threatening court action might be enough to scare her into refunding you?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

I would turn her out and check her twice a day, make sure she is safe and has water 24/7.
I would be sending her a weekly bill every week, outlining any extra costs.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

MagicMelon said:



			So she's totally ok to hack out in company and in the school?  To be fair, the odd horse won't hack on their own (for whatever reason) so not everyone expects to hack out alone. If she is 100% fine at all other times then you could sell her but state very clearly she is dangerous to hack alone? If she's a nice competition sort, a lot of people won't even care she doesn't hack alone so it wouldn't be an issue for them. Sounds awful what the seller is doing though, not acceptable at all. Did she never hack the horse out herself?  Not sure how else you'll get your money back though if you don't spend thousands on solicitor letters   Although, one letter threatening court action might be enough to scare her into refunding you?
		
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Its obvious the vendor knew the horse was not as described. The vendor rode the horse and could not refute the purchasors claim of rearing.
She does not need to spend thousands on solicitors letters, why would she. She can go to SmallClaims Court with no intervention from a solicitor, a solicitor will not help in this case, or in most cases, they just add to costs. Small claims charge about £50/60 to bring the case to court.


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## Goldenstar (22 August 2015)

If the horse was £2000 sold as a talented but tricky ( it also has sarcoids ) I would have expected the buyer to get on with it .
Many horses don't hack alone and in many homes it matters not one jot.
But a school mistress should not stand on it's hind legs when alone  unless it's been clearly stated that the horse does not hack alone .
For instance a schoolmaster dressage horse might well not be a good hack.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			If the horse was £2000 sold as a talented but tricky ( it also has sarcoids ) I would have expected the buyer to get on with it .
Many horses don't hack alone and in many homes it matters not one jot.
But a school mistress should not stand on it's hind legs when alone  unless it's been clearly stated that the horse does not hack alone .
For instance a schoolmaster dressage horse might well not be a good hack.
		
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I agree, but the horse was sold as suitable for Michen, you cannot say "schoolmaster" and expect professionals to even look at the horse, never mind pay £4k for it,  a schoolmaster horse "not to be ridden alone hacking" is not what Michen was sold, there were no caveats of that type.
The whole transaction was flawed legally from Michens viewpoint, all skewed in favour of the vendor, nevertheless the essence of the case is that they sold her a horse not as described. That all there is to it. The horse is dangerous, and OP should not try to ride it , what is the point? it may kill her, or it may get injured and they would then refuse to have it back for that reason. Michen should tell them to put £3000 in to her bank account and uplift the horse today other wise it will be charged per day, they have fudged it, there will be a reason for this, and it will be to their benefit not OP's, so as sonn as they default, in any way, send them a bill, including back charges, charges are per day. Include livery cost to including two visual checks daily and a farrier every six weeks and a vet report every six weeks.
The OP has assumed responsibility for the horse until it is in posession of the vendor and the cash is in OP's bank account. These people seem to have a lot of experience of de frauding people, and know just how far they can go.
Vices have to be declared, this one rears, that is a vice.


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## Amymay (22 August 2015)

MagicMelon said:



			So she's totally ok to hack out in company and in the school?  To be fair, the odd horse won't hack on their own (for whatever reason) so not everyone expects to hack out alone.
		
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It's supposed to be schoolmaster!

What point about this are people missing??


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

Vices have to be declared, this one rears, that is a vice. OP should write to the vet involved, ask him if he regularly vets horses for this person, a person who has sold her a horse with a vice. Why did this not surface when the horse was vetted?
OP has no entitlement to this information, but by doing this, if the vet is in cahoots with the vendor, the vendor will start to get a sinking feeling, OP has to set this up as though it is her her intention to go to court for her money. The vet will not be happy, who cares! Anything that can be done to alert the horse community to their responsibilities is good.
She should not be dancing to the vendors tune, but should have the vendor worried that they will end in court.
What OP should do is to be a total legal  PIA to vendor, a person who has defrauded her.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

amymay said:



			It's supposed to be schoolmaster!

What point about this are people missing??
		
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I know, its pathetic, if you ever have a rearer, you will know that it is not fun, and can be life threateningly dangerous. It is a lot worse if it has been "re schooled" as in the twinkle of an eye it defaults to rearing.
A bit like advertising a yearling worm ridden 12.2 from Dragon Driving as a "first pony" It might be the first, but most probably the last.


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## Michen (22 August 2015)

Had sarcoids. Lasered off five years ago and have not returned since, the vet who did the vetting happened to be the one that lasered them off in previous home. 

Guys, I know you all have opinions about what I should and shouldn't do. But the fact is the horse will be removed in 12 days and until that time is turned away and tended to twice a day by me. Yes it sucks but it's better than the alternative of having it removed now, half the money and potentially never getting paid the other half whatever is signed. 

Anybody can read my threads and see full passported name of the horse. 

I will be doing what I can re trading standards but I am not willing to jeprodise the settlement of the horse by causing a stink yet. I have to be a bit selfish here and think of myself in this situation too, and my own sanity. 

I do not think the seller will alter from the agreement and until such time as the horse is removed and the money paid I have to give her the benefit of the doubt. 





Goldenstar said:



			If the horse was £2000 sold as a talented but tricky ( it also has sarcoids ) I would have expected the buyer to get on with it .
Many horses don't hack alone and in many homes it matters not one jot.
But a school mistress should not stand on it's hind legs when alone  unless it's been clearly stated that the horse does not hack alone .
For instance a schoolmaster dressage horse might well not be a good hack.
		
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## Michen (22 August 2015)

i don't know any horses who won't hack out alone. Plenty who are unpleasant to hack alone yes, but their default still isn't to stand on their back legs vertically. 





amymay said:



			It's supposed to be schoolmaster!

What point about this are people missing??
		
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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

Michen I agree with what you are doing, but you have to be aware that the vendor may not come up with the money, she may not pay the money then remove the horse. You have to be aware of things that can go wrong, my advice stands, behave in a rational and reasonable manner, get everything in writing, and have all the evidence needed in order to go to court if the vendor defaults, she may not have £3K on the day, what then, do you accept £2500 ? or £2000, or £1500, or £200?
Being ready to go to court will reduce the chance of it happening, a few days befor the exchange, write to her, affirming your agreement and tell her that if the money is not forthcoming you will go to court for all your expenses and the cost of the horse.
This is not negotiable. She then must dispute the arrangement or by default she has agreed to it.
Do not respond to any other chat, written or in any other way, block her out.
These people may turn up with a lot of "friends", if you are in fear, phone 101 and ask for assistance, they will send a policeman out. don't worry about that, obviously if they threaten you use 999. I have been there and got the tea shirt. Got my tyres slashed etc etc. Got my fav horse abused, starved and no water, they are evil  I used to carry a knife in my van, if I had a shotgun, I would have carried that too.


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## Michen (22 August 2015)

She is having an legal contract drawn up for me to see by the end of next week. Horse isn't leaving yard or being loaded until I have counted the cash. Nor will it be going for a penny less than 3k! 





Bonkers2 said:



			Michen I agree with wht you are doing, but you have to be aware that the vendor may not come up with the money, she may not pay the money then remove the horse. You have to be aware of things that can go wrong, my advice stands, behave in a rational and reasonable manner, get everything in writing, and have all the evidence needed in order to go to court if the vendor defaults, she may not have £3K on the day, what then, do you accept £2500 ? or £2000, or £1500, or £200?
		
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## Amymay (22 August 2015)

Michen said:



			She is having an legal contract drawn up for me to see by the end of next week. Horse isn't leaving yard or being loaded until I have counted the cash. Nor will it be going for a penny less than 3k!
		
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What sort of legal contract? The mind boggles!


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## Speedyfluff (22 August 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			Its not a matter of "living with it" when the horse is  dangerous, who would live with that!
		
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OP has said several times that she is fine out in company. My gelding was actually a nightmare to hack. Absolutely no way could he go out alone, and in company he was still a nightmare. As it turns out he had kissing spines, but when I first found out he wouldn't hack, I just did dressage on him as I still had my old girl to hack out. He's now retired at only 15 years old along with my old girl who's 23. She also went through a nightmare stage when hacking alone. It lasted almost a year, but she came good and was the best horse ever. I could go absolutely anywhere with her, alone or in company. Having said that she didn't rear and flip. But my gelding would have. There are people who are not bothered about hacking out alone so long as the horse is useful in other ways.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

Speedyfluff said:



			OP has said several times that she is fine out in company. My gelding was actually a nightmare to hack. Absolutely no way could he go out alone, and in company he was still a nightmare. As it turns out he had kissing spines, but when I first found out he wouldn't hack, I just did dressage on him as I still had my old girl to hack out. He's now retired at only 15 years old along with my old girl who's 23. She also went through a nightmare stage when hacking alone. It lasted almost a year, but she came good and was the best horse ever. I could go absolutely anywhere with her, alone or in company. Having said that she didn't rear and flip. But my gelding would have. There are people who are not bothered about hacking out alone so long as the horse is useful in other ways.
		
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This particular a horse was sold as a schoolmaster, a safe ride, the horse is not as sold, that is the end of the matter. Even if it was not dangerous, it is still not as sold, it can be returned.
Talking about other horses which are not good to hack alone is irrelevant. Or stories about horses which came good in the end ......... I can take you to a field with three horses, one is unbreakable [not mine] and one is a graded show jumper who stops, they are of no use to the owner,  the other one is uncatchable, but who would know if they viewed it in a stable? They could sell them all as unbroken. That would not be correct, someone might be able to break the mare, someone might be able to catch the pony, someone might be happy to show jump up in a RC situation, but very few people could do any of these things. A dealer would not buy any of them, they are too well known and the owner does not want to shoot them.

The horse is not suitable for OP.:  it was sold as a schoolmaster, which to me is a warranty in law just as a "good hunter" is a warranty in law.


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## SO1 (22 August 2015)

I hope they turn up on 2nd September - hopefully as they have a facebook page and business they will be concerned enough about their reputation to come up collect the horse.

I expect the legal agreement they will expect you to sign will be a confidentiality clause- might be worth asking to see a copy of it before they turn up to give you a chance to read and digest any small print.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

SO1 said:



			I hope they turn up on 2nd September - hopefully as they have a facebook page and business they will be concerned enough about their reputation to come up collect the horse.

I expect the legal agreement they will expect you to sign will be a confidentiality clause- might be worth asking to see a copy of it before they turn up to give you a chance to read and digest any small print.
		
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What are they going to do?  sue OP?, that would not happen, if they don't have any money they won't get a solicitor, it would be very expensive as it would not be small claims court. Any bit of paper can be viewed as signed under duress. The courts would not necessarily find in their favour or award costs so really, I don't think Michen need worry about this today.

Anyway I am sure that there are other ways of discrediting people, I have had a whole horse community turned against me, even though an evil family starved my horse, the so-called leaders of the horse community and other horse lovers in the area would not help me when I needed it, they cared not a jot about my horse but it was the talk of Dunoon for a few months..


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 August 2015)

SO1 said:



			I hope they turn up on 2nd September - hopefully as they have a facebook page and business they will be concerned enough about their reputation to come up collect the horse.

I expect the legal agreement they will expect you to sign will be a confidentiality clause- might be worth asking to see a copy of it before they turn up to give you a chance to read and digest any small print.
		
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Buying nutters is a sure way to make a reputation as a dealer to be avoided. They were not concerned about their reputation when they sold this horse as a schoolmaster, why should they worry now? 

Definately ask for a copy of this disclaimer as:   "I have been advised to run it past my solicitor" Of course you risk them backing out if you take this approach, but who knows what they will do.
Or you can say you will not be present at the transaction so your representative will have the paper signed to hand over, once the money is in your bank. They can't argue that you must be there, you have to have the money in your bank, then they can get the horse [and watch they don't take your headcollar].


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## siennamiller (22 August 2015)

Speedyfluff said:



			OP has said several times that she is fine out in company. My gelding was actually a nightmare to hack. Absolutely no way could he go out alone, and in company he was still a nightmare. As it turns out he had kissing spines, but when I first found out he wouldn't hack, I just did dressage on him as I still had my old girl to hack out. He's now retired at only 15 years old along with my old girl who's 23. She also went through a nightmare stage when hacking alone. It lasted almost a year, but she came good and was the best horse ever. I could go absolutely anywhere with her, alone or in company. Having said that she didn't rear and flip. But my gelding would have. There are people who are not bothered about hacking out alone so long as the horse is useful in other ways.
		
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I absolutely do NOT understand how people do not get this. The horse is clearly dangerous, Michen bought a supposed school mistress, which this horse clearly is not.
What part of this do people not understand!!!!


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## Leo Walker (22 August 2015)

Honestly, Michen bought a schoolmistress, and it turns out the mare is anything but. Shes negotiated returning the mare and getting 75% of the money back. No its not great, but in a couple of weeks the mare will be gone and Michen will have most of the money back. I think its time to let it go! Bonkers2 your issues aren't really relevant here, other than the fact that you had a vaguely similar issue and didnt pursue it as you wouldn't get the money back. I think Michen needs a round of applause for dealing with it the way she has, then a huge hug as its terrible to have to deal with this sort of crap! Onwards and upwards Michen! And a huge hug from me!


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## Michen (22 August 2015)

Just a wicked thought.. Would it be childish to hog the mare before she goes back .. Hehe.


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## D66 (22 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Just a wicked thought.. Would it be childish to hog the mare before she goes back .. Hehe.
		
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Lol
Seriously though, I'd call the vet you used and tell him about the rearing, why the mare wasn't suitable as a school mistress. The story might get around.


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## Michen (22 August 2015)

Vetting wasn't done under my instruction. Was done a week before I viewed her but the purchasers pulled out when the vet happened to be the same one that treated her for sarcoids in a previous home 5 years ago (she's been in the same county all her life). I just got a copy of it! 




Digger66 said:



			Lol
Seriously though, I'd call the vet you used and tell him about the rearing, why the mare wasn't suitable as a school mistress. The story might get around. 

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## bluedanube (22 August 2015)

Michen said:



			She is having an legal contract drawn up for me to see by the end of next week. Horse isn't leaving yard or being loaded until I have counted the cash. Nor will it be going for a penny less than 3k!
		
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I suspect that you will have a long wait...


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## Michen (22 August 2015)

Aren't you optimistic and helpful. 

There is no reason she won't show up, clearly she wants to settle this out of court as much as I do and she knows what the alternative is and therefore has agreed on this. I mean I know she's awful and no one detests her more than me currently but I don't see any reason for her to not collect the horse. 




bluedanube said:



			I suspect that you will have a long wait...
		
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## Dubsie (23 August 2015)

Well I do see a reason for her not to collect. You are paying the livery bill currently, she might as well delay another couple of weeks...


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## Exploding Chestnuts (23 August 2015)

Dubsie said:



			Well I do see a reason for her not to collect. You are paying the livery bill currently, she might as well delay another couple of weeks...
		
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Michen will add all cost from the agreed date, if the transaction fails, this is even more evidence against the vendor in court. Michen must remaim cool and professional.


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## Speedyfluff (23 August 2015)

siennamiller said:



			I absolutely do NOT understand how people do not get this. The horse is clearly dangerous, Michen bought a supposed school mistress, which this horse clearly is not.
What part of this do people not understand!!!!
		
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No need to shout. Obviously this mare is not a schoolmistress and the OP is quite right to send her back. However the fact that she displays dangerous behaviour when asked to hack alone does not mean that she is a dangerous horse. So long as whoever buys her is made aware of this, then she could well have a useful life as a competition horse with a competent rider who is not bothered about hacking alone.


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## Speedyfluff (23 August 2015)

OP you have done well to negotiate this deal with the vendor. I am sure she will do as she has promised. I really feel for you and hope that you can put this all behind you soon.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (23 August 2015)

Speedyfluff said:



			No need to shout. Obviously this mare is not a schoolmistress and the OP is quite right to send her back. However the fact that she displays dangerous behaviour when asked to hack alone does not mean that she is a dangerous horse. So long as whoever buys her is made aware of this, then she could well have a useful life as a competition horse with a competent rider who is not bothered about hacking alone.
		
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Well no one in their right minds would buy such a horse unless it was exceptionally talented, as almost no one wants a horse that is unpredictable and capable of injuring any rider, pro or otherwise. It is a dangerous horse, how else can it be defined, only dangerous in certain circumstances, it is still dangerous!


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## Speedyfluff (23 August 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			Well no one in their right minds would buy such a horse unless it was exceptionally talented, as almost no one wants a horse that is unpredictable and capable of injuring any rider, pro or otherwise. It is a dangerous horse, how else can it be defined, only dangerous in certain circumstances, it is still dangerous!
		
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A dangerous horse for me is one that will bolt or flip over without apparent cause. A horse that displays dangerous BEHAVIOUR in a certain easily identified and avoidable situation is not necessarily a dangerous horse. It would depend on what the trigger was and whether it was easily avoidable or not. Obviously, the number of people who would be interested in such a horse, as well as the value of the horse would be much less than if there were no problems.


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## ester (23 August 2015)

wrong quote!


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## ester (23 August 2015)

Speedyfluff said:



			No need to shout. Obviously this mare is not a schoolmistress and the OP is quite right to send her back. However the fact that she displays dangerous behaviour when asked to hack alone does not mean that she is a dangerous horse. So long as whoever buys her is made aware of this, then she could well have a useful life as a competition horse with a competent rider who is not bothered about hacking alone.
		
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What this mare could do in the future is not really relevant to the thread though is it? We cannot rely on the dealer making sure that they will make buyers aware of her issues given that she has form. She is dangerous for the OP.


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## Speedyfluff (23 August 2015)

ester said:



			What this mare could do in the future is not really relevant to the thread though is it? We cannot rely on the dealer making sure that they will make buyers aware of her issues given that she has form. She is dangerous for the OP.
		
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I was just responding tho those who were so quick to shout shoot it. But I agree the horse is dangerous for the OP.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (23 August 2015)

ester said:



			What this mare could do in the future is not really relevant to the thread though is it? We cannot rely on the dealer making sure that they will make buyers aware of her issues given that she has form. She is dangerous for the OP.
		
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This reminds me of the story about the man who sold his lurcher with a homing instinct, he sold it several times over. The OP has lost over £1000, the dealer has gained almost £1000 pounds, not bad for a weeks work.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (23 August 2015)

Tiarella said:



			I don't personally think you'll get anywhere with a court case and lose a lot of money trying.

It's becoming more common for people not to hack these days due to it being so dangerous so why not try and sell her as a competition horse and state she does not hack alone. That wouldn't put many people off to be honest.
		
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She wont lose more than £100 as there is no need for a lawyer, and the case is pretty obviously dodgy dealer who has lied v sensible leisure rider, case will be found in her favour almost certainly, but dealer will back down, almost certainly.

I think a horse that is dangerous will put most people off!


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## legalbeagle (23 August 2015)

So sorry to hear of your experience we bought a pony several years ago that was very similar a friend suggested trying a horse whisperer (I was extremely sceptical) she came out seemed to perform a lot of "mumbo jumbo" we then turned the pony away to grass for 4 weeks.  When we returned her to work she was totally different and my daughter had a very successful showjumping career with her.  I know it is a long short but might be worth trying.


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## fatpiggy (24 August 2015)

stormox said:



			I wish people wouldnt talk about the poor mare having to be PTS/Put down. Just because she rears in certain circumstances isnt a death warrant! She may not be Michen's cup of tea but she might be perfect for someone who only wants to ride in company, or school, she might be fine to compete with. I have ridden habitual rearers, one was my favourite mare, she would stand up when she saw something scary, but give her a moment and the adrenaline would go dowwn, shed pause for a moment and walk on. Another was a gelding who I think may have been riggy, he reared when excited.
I know this was mis-sold, and she certainly isnt a 'schoolmistress' but please dont condemn her to death. She could be the right persons perfect horse.
		
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But what will you do if one day, one of the above rears and goes over backwards on you?  My friend's wife, a very experienced dressage rider was in the arena one day, doing some schooling. The horse napped then reared and fell on her. She's been a quadraplegic since then. The horse had never done anything like that before.


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## bluedanube (24 August 2015)

fatpiggy said:



			But what will you do if one day, one of the above rears and goes over backwards on you?  My friend's wife, a very experienced dressage rider was in the arena one day, doing some schooling. The horse napped then reared and fell on her. She's been a quadraplegic since then. The horse had never done anything like that before.
		
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Well said. Sometimes PTS is the most responsible thing to do.


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## Equi (24 August 2015)

By that statement then we will all need to go and shoot our horses cause they are all capable of doing this. Stop riding all together.


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## Goldenstar (24 August 2015)

equi said:



			By that statement then we will all need to go and shoot our horses cause they are all capable of doing this. Stop riding all together.
		
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That's a fair point and the mare is fine in company so PTS seems OTT to me for many people it would be a quirk they could work round to get a smart ( and it's a nice looking mare )  cheap horse sadly the horse was not cheap and was not advertised honestly .


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## fatpiggy (24 August 2015)

equi said:



			By that statement then we will all need to go and shoot our horses cause they are all capable of doing this. Stop riding all together.
		
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I think you misunderstand what I meant - we all know that riding is a risk sport (remember Angela Rippon?  She was very badly injured when she was mounting her horse in a yard and she collided guts first with a granite gate post).  But you can never say it won't happen to me because I'm too good a rider, or I know my horse is only reacting to a scare or whatever.  My mare used to lift off a bit when she was bursting to gallop up a hill and I was asking her to wait. No, I was never hurt but she could easily have slipped or twisted in the air and done me some serious damage if I landed badly.  I actually had the opposite problem to the OP in sense as she was a nightmare to hack out in company as she HAD to be upfront and by a country mile, or there was TROUBLE.  I tried it a few times, decided it wasn't worth the blisters and just went out on my own.  I used to dread coming across another horse out though so took to hacking at odd hours.  Its easy enough to say to the OP, oh well just don't hack out alone then, if she is ok the rest of the time, but what if something happens half way through the hack and you have no choice?  Or if you are in the show ring and are asked to go away from the group and the horse has a hissy fit and goes up vertical?  I used to know a fantastic 12.2hh jumping pony. He could beat anything in a speed class but he had to be led into the ring or he would rear and rear.  They were very experienced owners/riders and put up with his antics because once he was on the other side of the tape he was fine, but most people wouldn't want that in a child's pony.  Once the BSJA changed the rules about outside assistance his career was over of course.


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## RunToEarth (24 August 2015)

Speedyfluff said:



			A dangerous horse for me is one that will bolt or flip over without apparent cause. A horse that displays dangerous BEHAVIOUR in a certain easily identified and avoidable situation is not necessarily a dangerous horse. It would depend on what the trigger was and whether it was easily avoidable or not. Obviously, the number of people who would be interested in such a horse, as well as the value of the horse would be much less than if there were no problems.
		
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I really hope you never have to experience a proper rearer - it is terrifying and they after can come over on themselves. 

I wouldn't buy Michen's horse for £4K if it could jump around Burghley knowing that it rears, it is an inherently dangerous and unpredictable learned trait. Why you would think it is any better than bolting is beyond me.


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## Annagain (24 August 2015)

Michen, Just wanted to say I'm so pleased the whole sorry saga is nearing its end. As galling as losing £1000 is, think of it as paying for a good few lessons in (horsey) life. By the time you're 40, one or two perfect horses down the line, you'll look back on this and be grateful for what it taught you. In the meantime, in the best possible way, I hope we don't have too many posts from you for the next few (incident free) months. 
Big hugs.


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## Michen (24 August 2015)

Thank you. I cant wait for it to be over either!!! X





annagain said:



			Michen, Just wanted to say I'm so pleased the whole sorry saga is nearing its end. As galling as losing £1000 is, think of it as paying for a good few lessons in (horsey) life. By the time you're 40, one or two perfect horses down the line, you'll look back on this and be grateful for what it taught you. In the meantime, in the best possible way, I hope we don't have too many posts from you for the next few (incident free) months. 
Big hugs.
		
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## misskk88 (24 August 2015)

Hi Michen.

I cant really offer anymore advice than has been given, but just wanted to add, that I am only a few more years older than you, and I am not so sure I would have been able to handle the situation with such responsibility, level headiness and maturity that you have.

The fact you have given the horse every chance, yet admit your limitations, and are openly honest that you need to put your mental and physical health first only shows the above even more so. 

Like the last few posters, I hope that the 2nd September comes and goes with no further issues for you. Totally agree that borrowing a friends horse or finding a share would give you the horsey fix you need, but allow you to pick yourself back up again.

Will be thinking of you on the 2nd.


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## Michen (24 August 2015)

Thank you! I'm probably not all that mature when I am still vaguely considering having a friend hog the mare and clip a swear word onto her arse whilst I am getting the money and signing the receipts etc in another area of the yard. Hehe... 

Third time lucky! Xx





misskk88 said:



			Hi Michen.

I cant really offer anymore advice than has been given, but just wanted to add, that I am only a few more years older than you, and I am not so sure I would have been able to handle the situation with such responsibility, level headiness and maturity that you have.

The fact you have given the horse every chance, yet admit your limitations, and are openly honest that you need to put your mental and physical health first only shows the above even more so. 

Like the last few posters, I hope that the 2nd September comes and goes with no further issues for you. Totally agree that borrowing a friends horse or finding a share would give you the horsey fix you need, but allow you to pick yourself back up again.

Will be thinking of you on the 2nd.
		
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## Speedyfluff (24 August 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			I really hope you never have to experience a proper rearer - it is terrifying and they after can come over on themselves. 

I wouldn't buy Michen's horse for £4K if it could jump around Burghley knowing that it rears, it is an inherently dangerous and unpredictable learned trait. Why you would think it is any better than bolting is beyond me.
		
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I didn't say it was better than bolting. I said "A dangerous horse for me is one that will bolt or flip over without apparent cause." "Flipping over" means rearing and falling over backwards, so I am puzzled that you felt you had to explain this to me. And yes, I have been on a rearer that would fall over backwards. Luckily he didn't quite topple over with me but he did with my trainer. He wasn't mine and I never rode him again.

My youngster got spooked and pulled back the other day, reared and fell over when the twine snapped. He also rears when being worked. Is he dangerous? Well he could be dangerous for a novice trying to handle him, but should I shoot him? No. He's a four year old warmblood going through a stroppy stage and I am gradually winning. There is a reason for his rearing and I will train it out of him.


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## Mahoganybay (24 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Thank you! I'm probably not all that mature when I am still vaguely considering having a friend hog the mare and clip a swear word onto her arse whilst I am getting the money and signing the receipts etc in another area of the yard. Hehe... 

Third time lucky! Xx
		
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Haha! I am twice your age and meant to be a mature, responsible adult but when I took the horse back that I was misold I was tempted to go back with a tin of white paint and draw a big c**k & balls on the side of the sellers stable block! 

I didn't obviously, but was sooooo tempted.


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## old hand (24 August 2015)

I have had my back broken by an undisclosed back flipper. I should have had him shot but relented and sold him for meat money to a horse whisperer ( at a huge loss as he was a Grade C showjumper).  However have always regretted it as he broke another man's back.  I had 42 breaks in one vertebra and have had significant pain and disablement since.  the owrst thing is that I have had to live with causing someone else to be disabled because I didn't have the guts to do what I should have done.  Imagine my anger when I later found out that the horse had been returned to the dealer for back flipping seven times and had walked 100 yards out of the main arena of one of the major show sites with a professional rider on it and that it had also broken one of its' previous owners backs.  The professional rider said he had never been so frightened in his life and was amazed that I could ride it after it broke my back ( not diagnosed by hospital but that is another story).  Sorry if the horse truly back flips it should be shot , it will do it whenever under stress even if it is that the rider isn't experienced enough to ride it.  yes I could ride the horse , it never did it to me again but I chose not to as one mistake and I could have been dead.  I gave him a chance and should not have done.


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## Kaylum (25 August 2015)

Did you see the vetting the previous potential buyer had done or did they just tell you that? They seem to be good at lying. Just thinking if that would help. 

Have you had the horse vetted since your purchase?  I wonder if this might help you?  I know you have had the physio.  

Just my random thoughts.  Good luck hope everything goes well and this is why it is sometimes good to post on here about horses people are going to see.  Its not always good for the seller as can flag up a few things they didn't want others to know.  

My friend went through this she bought a horse that was called a Sports Horse and it turned out to be an ex racer.   He was terrible reared hated everything and she managed to trace his previous owners who confirmed he was not good.  Anyway his saddle had been a terrible fit and she got him feeling happy again, gave him a year off basically and restarted.  

Its difficult and a lot of people have been there done that and its not worth risking your life but these people should be stopped.


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## elliefiz (25 August 2015)

Wow what a thread. So sorry for what you have gone through, dishonest dealers suck. I bought 2 horses unseen as a pair of broodmares from a well known UK dealer. They arrived in a horrific state with one being body scored 2 out of 10 by my vet and more or less a cruelty case. The other was hopping lame and had strangles. I was incandescent with rage that anyone would find it acceptable to send out horses in that condition. We luckily have a quarantine barn but I kept those horses for 6 weeks until they were recovered as I refused to let sick horses travel and they were then returned to dealer who repaid me purchase price of horses plus all expenses. I had all his messages and the original adverts all portraying horses as very different from what actually arrived. I didn't vet them either as he had said they had a recent vetting- he had actually bought them from an auction where they had received vet Certs which is very different to an actual vetting. I had taken legal advice and sent a very strongly worded email advising of the action I would take which included sending all vet reports to RSPCA, BS, BE and all vets in his locality unless I was reimbursed for every penny I spent. I would also have gone through every person on his Facebook page and sent them the same. It wasn't slander when I have cold hard facts, legally I was reassured of that. I personally would not have settled for anything less nor cut my losses- how dare anyone think they can get away with selling animals that are not fit for purpose? If you bought a TV from Dixons that didn't turn on, you would get all your money back for that and the law protects you accordingly for that. Also whilst I agreed with dealer that I wouldn't go out of my way to tell the world about the situation, I was not going to stay quiet on it either if his name ever came up in conversation with anyone. 

 Horses didn't leave yard until money was in my bank account and then I provided him with the address his transporter could collect them from. There is no way I would give anyone the address of your yard or location of the horse until you know the money is in your keeping. If I'm being honest this seller is taking the p*ss out of you. A legal document you need to sign? She is the one in the wrong here. Bonkers has given some great advice, get the law involved and get your money and expenses back. Why should you be out of pocket for someone else? And you have to repay a loan back?  words can't express how angry I would be. This dealer is laughing at you and making a fool of you, she shouldn't get away with it.


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## criso (25 August 2015)

But in this case the seller is not officially a dealer so the OP would first have to prove this first in which case they automatically are entitled to send it back.  If it's a private sale then slightly different rules apply and you would have to show that the seller knew about the issue and misrepresented the horse.  Not impossible as the OP got in touch with previous owners and an employee who might be prepared to come forward and say they knew.  I say might because even if they seem supportive now when it came to a legal process they might decide not to get involved.

This could get long and tricky in which case OP could end having to keep a horse they can't ride on livery while this process takes place.  In that time they can't ride and move on with their life. 

Then if they win they have to collect the money, even if you get a judgement, if they present their finances in just the right way, you could end up with a ridiculous payment plan that would take years to pay off.

It's not fair that Michen is out of pocket on this but assuming the return and payment goes through smoothly, it may be the best thing to do so she can move on.


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## RunToEarth (25 August 2015)

Speedyfluff said:



			I didn't say it was better than bolting. I said "A dangerous horse for me is one that will bolt or flip over without apparent cause." "Flipping over" means rearing and falling over backwards, so I am puzzled that you felt you had to explain this to me. And yes, I have been on a rearer that would fall over backwards. Luckily he didn't quite topple over with me but he did with my trainer. He wasn't mine and I never rode him again.
		
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That's great. Sometimes it isn't necessarily best to wait for that to happen. I had a rearer, it was a behavioural trait and he would do it as his go to when he didn't want to do something. It was dangerous and incredibly unpredictable and I had him shot before he came over on me - I couldn't have sold him on, he wasn't talented enough for anyone to need to take that risk with him every day. 




			My youngster got spooked and pulled back the other day, reared and fell over when the twine snapped. He also rears when being worked. Is he dangerous? Well he could be dangerous for a novice trying to handle him, but should I shoot him? No. He's a four year old warmblood going through a stroppy stage and I am gradually winning. There is a reason for his rearing and I will train it out of him.
		
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I think we all know that young horses will do things like this, and yes it is necessary to work through things when training something. However, the OP's horse isn't a quirky 4yo, it's meant to be a schoolmistress and it is showing dangerous behaviour. 

OP I hope you get your money back, and please keep a close eye on her next moves - it would be awful to hear a similar story to yours with someone else in a months' time.


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## brighteyes (25 August 2015)

So much good and supportive advice, so little real compensation for your damaged confidence, trust and bank balance. 

She is absolutely not as advertised, and in situations you might reasonably expect a horse to behave acceptably well, she is unpredictable, and very deliberately dangerous. The rearing is situationally triggered by the sounds of it and this is the bottom line.

What anyone who knows anything about horses is that, regardless of previous partnerships and achievements, they revert to type in new surroundings with new partners. Time has to be allowed for small mistrusts and defensive behaviours (not physically provoked) and new owners should handle new horses accordingly and with respect for this.  

It truly appears this horse was totally and knowingly mis-sold and I'm really sorry you have had to accept the facts as they have turned out. I hope it hasn't totally demolished your confidence with finding another. 

I'd want to trial next time if at all possible.  One rider's problem can be nothing at all to another, so don't rule out (or panic about) a quirk. All our best ones are quirky and time has ironed those out. Chin up and very good luck with the hand over. You have handled the advice on here extremely well and deserve your lifetime horse. It will be worth the wait and bumps along the way.


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## Pippity (25 August 2015)

FrankieCob said:



			Honestly, Michen bought a schoolmistress, and it turns out the mare is anything but. Shes negotiated returning the mare and getting 75% of the money back. No its not great, but in a couple of weeks the mare will be gone and Michen will have most of the money back. I think its time to let it go! Bonkers2 your issues aren't really relevant here, other than the fact that you had a vaguely similar issue and didnt pursue it as you wouldn't get the money back. I think Michen needs a round of applause for dealing with it the way she has, then a huge hug as its terrible to have to deal with this sort of crap! Onwards and upwards Michen! And a huge hug from me!
		
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100% this. I can't imagine going through what you have, Michen.


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## *Sahara (25 August 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			Obviously humour isn't conveyed well on internet sites - I didn't realise it was a joke, apologies. 

However, it's very clear from the OP that this £4K schoolmistress has serious issues. People often dismiss the severity of rearing, but until you have sat on a true rearer, you won't really understand. 

Something that can turn itself inside out and pull itself over might never be a safe ridden horse. Something that rears without pain is very dangerous. She's only doing it out hacking alone at the moment, but a habitual rearer will have that as her defence mechanism, often throughout her life. The danger of a habitual rearer, who rears for behavioural reasons is that you will never know when they are going to go up - it could be in the school, at a competition surrounded by people, or on the road, with an 8ft vertical drop between the saddle and the tarmac. 

It isn't worth the risk, or the liability of passing it on to someone else, because sometimes rearers are just rearers and you can't change that - I sure as hell tried with mine, and I'm sure PS would be able to tell you some tales that make your hair stand on end with the trouble she had with Pea.

I have also never met a horse that won't hack alone - it is most certainly not common here!
		
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I agree with this ^
Also sending you a hug <3


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## 3DE (25 August 2015)

If you think about rearing - it goes against anything nature tells a horse. Exposure of the stomach to a 'predator' is a bad thing! In my experience (personal and seeing others) is rearing is almost always caused by pain. The rearer I had (and she only threatened) has a old fracture to the pelvis, kissing spines a fracture to the eye socket and poll damage. Sadly without xrays we never know if there is something underlying.

As for the small claims court - you can take them to court yourself. Just fill in the forms online and I think it costs about £30. You may not win but a court summons dropping on their doorstep could make them pay up.

Linky for you

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-rights/legal-system/taking-legal-action/small-claims/

and

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/overview


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## Michen (25 August 2015)

Small claims start to finish is approx 700 pounds now which I may or may not have got back. 




3DE said:



			If you think about rearing - it goes against anything nature tells a horse. Exposure of the stomach to a 'predator' is a bad thing! In my experience (personal and seeing others) is rearing is almost always caused by pain. The rearer I had (and she only threatened) has a old fracture to the pelvis, kissing spines a fracture to the eye socket and poll damage. Sadly without xrays we never know if there is something underlying.

As for the small claims court - you can take them to court yourself. Just fill in the forms online and I think it costs about £30. You may not win but a court summons dropping on their doorstep could make them pay up.

Linky for you

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-rights/legal-system/taking-legal-action/small-claims/

and

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/overview

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## 3DE (25 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Small claims start to finish is approx 700 pounds now which I may or may not have got back.
		
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Then withdraw at that point. Use the court papers appearing on their door as a bluff. The court insists on mediation too so they will be forced into that before it gets to the actual court stage. They will be told in no uncertain terms at mediation that they are out order. Also report them to the inland revenue as you can bet they won't be declaring their extra income...


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## RunToEarth (25 August 2015)

3DE said:



			If you think about rearing - it goes against anything nature tells a horse. Exposure of the stomach to a 'predator' is a bad thing! In my experience (personal and seeing others) is rearing is almost always caused by pain. The rearer I had (and she only threatened) has a old fracture to the pelvis, kissing spines a fracture to the eye socket and poll damage. Sadly without xrays we never know if there is something underlying.
		
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Pain is only one motivator behind rearing. A lot of horses will react to a block at the poll junction by evading contact at a young age, and unless they are sympathetically ridden through it, it becomes a learned trait. The initial source of the block is going to be discomfort either by the rider pushing the horse forward into contact or the horse's own excitement, which will result in the rear. However the behaviour will develop as a reaction to contact or to unfavourable situations rather than specifically pain. I think it is fairly naïve to state that only horses in pain will rear.


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## Speedyfluff (25 August 2015)

Rearing can be pain or behaviour related. I always suspect pain first. A friend of mine has a WB mare that she used to keep at mine. She flipped over with her on several occasions, in all kinds of circumstances, both hacking and in the school. Once she fell backwards into a ditch and my friend was lucky to be alive. But she kept on riding her. I was much younger then and rather stupidly brave. So I schooled her for my friend thinking it was behavioural and that she just needed a firm rider. She never once reared with me. I guess I was lucky because a male friend of her owner rode her one evening and she flipped over with him. At that point I decided not to ride her again. We had vets come and do lameness work ups etc. but nothing was found until finally she went to Rossdales. There she was diagnosed with PSD in both hinds. She had keyhole surgery and fully recovered. That was over ten years ago and the mare hasn't reared since.

But back to what is relevant here. I think the OP has done really well to secure a deal, even though it is regretful that she has lost £1k over the whole unfortunate experience. I fully understand her not wanting to go through the courts right now. I would not want to either. I would want the whole thing over with. A bird in the hand and all that. Good luck, OP. Hopefully soon you can put this all behind you.


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## Meowy Catkin (25 August 2015)

My late TB mare was a rearer, it didn't matter to me as her job was being a nanny for youngstock. She had always been a rearer and as a foal and used to walk next to her dam on her hind legs. Once backed she reared under saddle too, but she was always well balanced and under control so it didn't stop her from being a racehorse. Even in her twenties she would go right up, turn and walk about on her hindlegs while waving her forelegs about, whenever anything exciting happened.

She wasn't in pain and she certainly wasn't bothered about predators attacking her stomach. 

Sadly I missed the full height, but this was her doing her thing after a good canter round the paddock.


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## Michen (25 August 2015)

Well I've uploaded a photo of her rearing when asked to leave the yard. Just a screenshot from a video it's in my album entitled mare. Can't get it on here due to ipad being a pain and not copying the link but if anyone else can that's fab. 

And that is not her at full height...


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## Carefreegirl (25 August 2015)




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## Michen (25 August 2015)

Thanks!

There she is in all her glory. The reason the right long line is tight is from her turning around and backing up, at speed. Having lost my concentration for one second a few days before with her and getting kicked in the stomach I was getting the hell out the way. This video was taken for evidence, not with the intention of winning the battle. 




Carefreegirl said:








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## Caol Ila (25 August 2015)

That is a rather spectacular rear.


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## Michen (25 August 2015)

And not her biggest. She reared bigger than this under saddle when her old owner rode and she's done bigger on the long lines when she stumbled back and fell over. 



Caol Ila said:



			That is a rather spectacular rear.
		
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## Meowy Catkin (25 August 2015)

Blimey Michen. Her rear is definitely a different shape than what mine did, with a higher neck and head position, plus even the fuzzy photo makes your mare look very tense. What went through the seller's mind when they decided to advertise her as a schoolmistress? Was it just greed?

I'm keeping fingers firmly crossed that the collection goes smoothly.


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## Caol Ila (25 August 2015)

She missed her calling as a Hollywood stunt horse.


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## Michen (25 August 2015)

She does this snake thing with her head when she goes up as well which makes it even worst. 

Honestly? I think she thought they had fixed the problem. Stable groom said she was getting there and probably a few more months and really would have been happy and content out hacking alone. 

But then I bought her, new place, new rider (whose not a pro) and whilst she has not one second won with me (I have always got her to go where I've asked her to go whatever the situation) it's all started up again. Exact behaviour her old old owner warned me about. I reckon the seller thought they had eliminated it and took her chance. Doesn't make it right and she should never have been sold as a schoolmistress 



Faracat said:



			Blimey Michen. Her rear is definitely a different shape than what mine did, with a higher neck and head position, plus even the fuzzy photo makes your mare look very tense. What went through the seller's mind when they decided to advertise her as a schoolmistress? Was it just greed?

I'm keeping fingers firmly crossed that the collection goes smoothly.
		
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## Exploding Chestnuts (25 August 2015)

The vendor thought she could make money with this thing, take a chance it does not rear on the day and get the money then tell the purchser the horse was fine when trialled and she has "ruined it". Vendor then weeps buckets and pays out massive money to get it sorted.
Good video clip, that is enough, She is dangerours:  it is very rare for a horse to do that in those circumstance, very rare.


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## Meowy Catkin (25 August 2015)

The pro should surely know that a change can bring undesirable behaviour back. I know that although my chestnut mare doesn't nap with me any more, put a new rider on and she'll give it a go. I'm glad to say that her napping is utterly pathetic compared to what you've experienced and the seller was completely honest with me. In fact they rode her back and forth past the gate to the yard to show what she did.


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## Michen (25 August 2015)

Yep. Like bonkers said, probably taking a chance. Hey ho- I'll find the right horse one day and it's all a learning curve. If nothing else I have hugely improved my long lining skills!!!!!!!





Faracat said:



			The pro should surely know that a change can bring undesirable behaviour back. I know that although my chestnut mare doesn't nap with me any more, put a new rider on and she'll give it a go. I'm glad to say that her napping is utterly pathetic compared to what you've experienced and the seller was completely honest with me. In fact they rode her back and forth past the gate to the yard to show what she did.
		
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## Yuki1290 (25 August 2015)

I am so sorry Michen to hear that your bad luck with horses continues... Hope this get sorted soon! Out of interest, have you ever seen her rearing in the field? In my experience, there are two types of rearers, natural rearers for which rearing is second nature and they tend to be very balanced(!) they get up from stepping under and standing on their legs properly rather than throwing their weight back... Then, there are the un-natural rearers, I'm afraid that your mare seems to me to belong to the second category... which is the (most) dangerous one... Also, that "snaking" thing is a clear sign of aggression... I would try not to pressurize a horse in that frame of mind!


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## Michen (25 August 2015)

No never seen her rear in the field even when mucking about



Yuki1290 said:



			I am so sorry Michen to hear that your bad luck with horses continues... Hope this get sorted soon! Out of interest, have you ever seen her rearing in the field? In my experience, there are two types of rearers, natural rearers for which rearing is second nature and they tend to be very balanced(!) they get up from stepping under and standing on their legs properly rather than throwing their weight back... Then, there are the un-natural rearers, I'm afraid that your mare seems to me to belong to the second category... which is the (most) dangerous one... Also, that "snaking" thing is a clear sign of aggression... I would try not to pressurize a horse in that frame of mind!
		
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## Yuki1290 (25 August 2015)

I'm guessing that this has been suggested already but, maybe there's an undiagnosed pain/health issue? I wouldn't really trust a vetting from a vet that I don't know personally!


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## Michen (25 August 2015)

Vet is a well respected vet that my personal vet knows. There may well be something underlying but if there is she's had it for four years. Plus the behaviour is very specific, she works fantastically in the school and hacks out fine with others. 




Yuki1290 said:



			I'm guessing that this has been suggested already but, maybe there's an undiagnosed pain/health issue? I wouldn't really trust a vetting from a vet that I don't know personally!
		
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## criso (25 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Honestly? I think she thought they had fixed the problem. Stable groom said she was getting there and probably a few more months and really would have been happy and content out hacking alone.
		
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That's what I'm inclined to think.  This thread (and the other) is full of suggestions and recommendations of ways and people to fix her.  People always think they can.

Mine are practiced rearers in the field either together play fighting or alone.  Very high, very balanced, it's part of their play.  They both lacked confidence hacking alone and I had some long battles at first, but neither at any point thought to stand on their back legs when I was riding.  I bought Frankie from a professional and he warned me he was sticky to hack on his own though not dangerous and went to great lengths to make sure I was in a situation where I would have hacking companions if i needed them.


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## stormox (25 August 2015)

That is a serious rear- very dangerous if you were on her as she doesnt look balanced, a balanced  rearer crouches more with the hind legs to take the weight. Its so different from the horses play-rearing in the field. How could anyone EVER describe her as a schoolmistress? I would be tempted to threaten seller that you were going to put that on the internet, she really should give you all your money back.


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## Cortez (25 August 2015)

I train certain horses to rear; they are selected very carefully to be as safe as possible while doing so. I would NEVER take on a horse that rears like that; very, very dangerous!


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## Meowy Catkin (25 August 2015)

What do you look for Cortez?


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## Michen (25 August 2015)

Yes I rode a horse in Belize that was trained to and it was the first rear I ever sat. Felt completely different, was quite incredible really. 



Cortez said:



			I train certain horses to rear; they are selected very carefully to be as safe as possible while doing so. I would NEVER take on a horse that rears like that; very, very dangerous!
		
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## Cortez (25 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			What do you look for Cortez?
		
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Strong croup, plenty of hock articulation, uphill and a tendency to be a bit "airy" in front. The ability to do this:


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## Meowy Catkin (25 August 2015)

That photo shows a very controlled rear. So different from a flailing, out of control rear.


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## ester (25 August 2015)

bloody hell michen!


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## Michen (25 August 2015)

Yeah... And like I said, not the biggest she's done on the long lines by any means. And the rear she did under saddle was that big if not worse, and she walked backwards into a hedge doing it on a slippery Tarmac road. 





ester said:



			bloody hell michen!
		
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## Exploding Chestnuts (25 August 2015)

Yes, the grey is relaxed, and controlled, and controllable, obviously it is not so high, but it is all inherently safe and balanced.


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## Slightlyconfused (25 August 2015)

Carefreegirl said:








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That is actually how my wb mare used to rear......after backing her some days she would be foot perfect in the school and little hacks others if she tensed up she would go straight up or bronc until my sister came off. It got to the point I was going send her off to a pro but I wanted a full vet check up done first. First thing he did was X-ray back and que four fully fused processes and another four behind it starting to touch and from the amount of white calcification on the X-ray she had had the fusions from a very early age. We got her at nine, third home in two years and I found out the last three homes tried and failed to back her without her nearly going over on them. 

Hope things work out for you and you find your next horse soon.

And I will be also, rightly or wrongly, hoping the mare finds her place somewhere soon as well.


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## Peregrine Falcon (25 August 2015)

F'ing hell!  You wouldn't have got me anywhere near that mare!  Shhhhheeeeesssuuuusss!


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## npage123 (26 August 2015)

Another horse who needs a special rider and trainer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Dgp-qc0P5s

OP, keeping my fingers and toes crossed that everything goes smoothly for you, come September.


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## Michen (26 August 2015)

Eek. Maybe I hadn't appreciated how big and dangerous they were. I've never dealt with a proper rearer till her!




Peregrine Falcon said:



			F'ing hell!  You wouldn't have got me anywhere near that mare!  Shhhhheeeeesssuuuusss!
		
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## cornbrodolly (26 August 2015)

I ve read all this thread with interest- to lose £1000 seems bad - but easily the best and quickest option. The original reasons for rearing might have been pain or residual pain now, but once the habit is leaned it will never disappear. Ingrained habits could take 6 months rehab- and would cost more than the horse is worth  but theres no guarantee that one day there would not be a trigger ,stress,pain whatever, and the rearing would reoccur. Also, have to agree not to use as a broodmare - you want to start with the best of temperaments.
 For those who think there is no habit or vice that cant be cured - sorry, thats just plain wrong. Show me a trainer that promises a full recovery - I  would be very suprised that one exists.


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## Speedyfluff (26 August 2015)

npage123 said:



			Another horse who needs a special rider and trainer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Dgp-qc0P5s

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That is one sticky and skilled rider. But no hat? Good grief. Having said that though, that grey is obviously in a lot of pain and is bi laterally lame behind (worse in right hind). He is also being worked completely hollow, has a dipped back and is croup high. He should not be being ridden IMO. He is shouting as loudly as he can that it hurts! That is not a horse that is just being stroppy.


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## Piaffe123 (26 August 2015)

That's a serious rear and as someone else said, the snaking sounds aggressive.

I don't blame you one dot for the way you're handling the situation, it's exactly how I'd be proceeding. That kind of rear is not big, clever or funny and could very easily end up with a serious injury or worse.

Poor you


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## HeresHoping (26 August 2015)

Speedyfluff said:



			That is one sticky and skilled rider. But no hat? Good grief. Having said that though, that grey is obviously in a lot of pain and is bi laterally lame behind (worse in right hind). He is also being worked completely hollow, has a dipped back and is croup high. He should not be being ridden IMO. He is shouting as loudly as he can that it hurts! That is not a horse that is just being stroppy.
		
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My thoughts exactly.


So sorry, Michen.  I do understand, I really do.  Well done for being so pragmatic.


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## wyrdsister (26 August 2015)

Yikes, Michen! I've only just caught up with this sorry saga. I'd add to the chorus of folk who've experienced this sort of behaviour & found a pain-related cause. My youngster used to go up like that (& came down over backwards a few times!) on the lunge & long reins. Notably, she only ever did it in the school & playing in the field, she was a gem to hack, so I initially thought it was a natural tendency plus learned trait as she'd been badly mishandled in an arena before I got her. Then she went up with a rider on (not me, bless her cotton socks, she'd always been kind to me). It turned out she had serious KS & hind limb issues :-/ We went through the wringer trying to fix her & I still lost her 8 weeks ago. Whatever has caused this for your mare, I wouldn't wish any of the paths to dealing with it on anyone. I too ended up with my youngster after the sort of awful hellride you went through with Torres (though that mare is still alive & mostly a decoration now). I know what it takes out of you. I really hope you can get your resolution soon. My sympathies.


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## Fun Times (26 August 2015)

npage123 said:



			Another horse who needs a special rider and trainer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Dgp-qc0P5s

OP, keeping my fingers and toes crossed that everything goes smoothly for you, come September.
		
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Sorry to hijack but npage who on earth is the person with the grey horse you linked to? Just watched a couple of his videos on you tube where the horse is way beyond what I would be comfortable dealing with and the chap is completely unfazed by it all. Amazing.


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## npage123 (26 August 2015)

Speedyfluff - I also thought there was something not quite right with the horse's off hind.  I think he's an 18h TB ex-racehorse being retrained.  At some point he had 4 months off due to abcesses in 3 different hooves, and during that time off he became very stiff all over - whether this happened recently and the stiffness is still there and showing in the hindlegs, I don't know.  I see what you mean about the horse's way of going and I do agree the horse doesn't look comfortable and well rounded in his way of going, but I don't feel knowledgeable enough to comment on this person's riding/handling of the horse.  I'm at the moment trying to learn more about the rider's training principles and the horse's background, and this may shed some light on why the horse is going the way he is.  Regarding him not wearing a riding hat, my take on that is the person's background and current riding work is in a part of the world where it's not the norm to wear a hat, regardless of what horse you're going to ride or what style.

Fun Times - there's quite a few videos and info on him online - Jean Luc Cornille. (He's on facebook too but you've got to log in on facebook yourself in order to see his.)

http://www.scienceofmotion.com/index.html

I'm still trying to understand some of his theories, incl why he feels 'low and low' to stretch a horse, does harm to some of their muscles, and is therefore not as beneficial to them as what most people believe.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKumaWifhUA    Damages of long and long - equine biomechanics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9EzqfQa2P4  Reflections on rollkur

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJQdR__-Apo  In-hand dressage at Devon Show

Sorry Michen for posting things not related to your horse :/


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## Exploding Chestnuts (26 August 2015)

Fun Times said:



			Sorry to hijack but npage who on earth is the person with the grey horse you linked to? Just watched a couple of his videos on you tube where the horse is way beyond what I would be comfortable dealing with and the chap is completely unfazed by it all. Amazing.
		
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I think he is a "user"


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## Fun Times (26 August 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I think he is a "user"
		
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Hmm. Of horses do you mean? Or drugs? I must say I would want to be drugged before sitting the rears on that grey horse!


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## Goldenstar (26 August 2015)

Fun Times said:



			Sorry to hijack but npage who on earth is the person with the grey horse you linked to? Just watched a couple of his videos on you tube where the horse is way beyond what I would be comfortable dealing with and the chap is completely unfazed by it all. Amazing.
		
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The glaring thing about that clip is the horrendous under tracking in the trot the horse either has a big soundness issue or is very very incorrectly trained and ridden in this case my sympathy is fully with the horse .


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## Michen (26 August 2015)

On another video of the same horse it says they found later after the videos were taken that the horse had an abscess brewing and was in pain 




Goldenstar said:



			The glaring thing about that clip is the horrendous under tracking in the trot the horse either has a big soundness issue or is very very incorrectly trained and ridden in this case my sympathy is fully with the horse .
		
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## Goldenstar (26 August 2015)

I see from some else's post that the grey is a ex race horse .
The clip is a master class in how not to approach re training race horses, they need to move forward with freedom and stretch their backs and learn gradually a free and correct rhythm .
No wonder the poor thing went up .


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## Exploding Chestnuts (26 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I see from some else's post that the grey is a ex race horse .
The clip is a master class in how not to approach re training race horses, they need to move forward with freedom and stretch their backs and learn gradually a free and correct rhythm .
No wonder the poor thing went up .
		
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I have seen very few racehorses that look more like Irish Draft horses, don't believe a word of it.
This is an advert designed to put anyone off sending their horse to this idiot.


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## npage123 (26 August 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I have seen very few racehorses that look more like Irish Draft horses, don't believe a word of it.
This is an advert designed to put anyone off sending their horse to this idiot.
		
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Bonkers2 I may misunderstand you, but are you saying you doubt whether he's a TB?  There is another clip showing Chazot as racehorse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg8ezbrmem8     The making of Chazot

(Just in case anyone is wondering, I do not know this person/his horses at all, just came across the rearing video on youtube and thought I'd share it, as rearing was the problem with Michen's horse.)


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## Exploding Chestnuts (26 August 2015)

npage123 said:



			Bonkers2 I may misunderstand you, but are you saying you doubt whether he's a TB?  There is another clip showing Chazot as racehorse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg8ezbrmem8     The making of Chazot

(Just in case anyone is wondering, I do not know this person/his horses at all, just came across the rearing video on youtube and thought I'd share it, as rearing was the problem with Michen's horse.)
		
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Well, he is not a typical flat horse: TB flat horses are rarely built this strong, so he is either an older horse , in which case has has been ridden safely every day for years, or he is not.


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## ester (26 August 2015)

He's an American


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## MotherOfChickens (26 August 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			Well, he is not a typical flat horse: TB flat horses are rarely built this strong, so he is either an older horse , in which case has has been ridden safely every day for years, or he is not.
		
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why not look this chap up rather than look at one clip and decide he's lying about everything or making up a whole backstory yourself? I only vaguely know who he is but I do know there's a whole documented story on this horse for everyone to see-agreeing with his methods/outcome is a different matter.


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## stormox (26 August 2015)

The main point to this thread though is not how to stay on  a rear, or whether the grey or Summer (Michens bay mare) is in pain, but the fact that Michen's  mare was advertised as a 'schoolmistress' which she clearly isnt, and although Michen may be getting out of the situation the only way she can this 'professional' that sold her Summer, making herself almost £3500, is still £1000 the richer and still has this mare which can then be sold to someone else. I think this is dreadful, though I dont really know what can be done about it apart from name and shame once the mare has gone back....


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## Michen (26 August 2015)

I may not be able to say anything but once the mare has been collected it doesn't take much to read through my threads and find out horses full name, distinguishing features etc. I'm not convinced she will be back up for sale anyway in all honesty, I think they likely have something much worse planned for her 

The whole thing is haunting me to be honest. I feel incredibly responsible for what happens from here on and God, if she was sold to someone like me again and someone got hurt im not sure how I would forgive myself. Whole thing is bloody awful. 

Waiting to hear what the document she wants signing is. If it's to keep me quiet I'm not sure whether I can morally go through with it if I'm legally unable to say anything if I see the mare re advertised as a schoolmistress. Urgh. Feeling stressed!


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## npage123 (26 August 2015)

stormox said:



			The main point to this thread though is not how to stay on  a rear, or whether the grey or Summer (Michens bay mare) is in pain, but the fact that Michen's  mare was advertised as a 'schoolmistress' which she clearly isnt, and although Michen may be getting out of the situation the only way she can this 'professional' that sold her Summer, making herself almost £3500, is still £1000 the richer and still has this mare which can then be sold to someone else. I think this is dreadful, though I dont really know what can be done about it apart from name and shame once the mare has gone back....
		
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Sorry Michen, didn't mean disrespect to you or your situation.  My initial post where I linked in the video of the other horse was purely to show another horse with serious rearing issues.


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## Michen (26 August 2015)

I don't mind at all- didn't find it disrespectful one bit  




npage123 said:



			Sorry Michen, didn't mean disrespect to you or your situation.  My initial post where I linked in the video of the other horse was purely to show another horse with serious rearing issues.
		
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## npage123 (26 August 2015)

Phew, thank you!

It must be incredibly hard for you at the moment, where it's almost a waiting game and you've got no control over the seller's next action.  The BHS seemed helpful when you've called them before, so maybe call them again once you get the reply letter from the seller, before doing anything.  So unfair that in the meantime you've got to wrap the horse in cotton wool and have all this stress!  Hang in there!


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## Goldenstar (26 August 2015)

npage123 said:



			Bonkers2 I may misunderstand you, but are you saying you doubt whether he's a TB?  There is another clip showing Chazot as racehorse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg8ezbrmem8     The making of Chazot

(Just in case anyone is wondering, I do not know this person/his horses at all, just came across the rearing video on youtube and thought I'd share it, as rearing was the problem with Michen's horse.)
		
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And if you look at the clip of him loose he tracking up or almost tracking up naturally and then compare how the over track has been reduced when ridden it's not a great advertisement for the training .


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## stormox (26 August 2015)

Michen said:



			I may not be able to say anything but once the mare has been collected it doesn't take much to read through my threads and find out horses full name, distinguishing features etc., 

Waiting to hear what the document she wants signing is. If it's to keep me quiet I'm not sure whether I can morally go through with it if I'm legally unable to say anything if I see the mare re advertised as a schoolmistress. Urgh. Feeling stressed!
		
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People on here can read your thread, but tbh not many people who are looking for a horse would see them, or have any reason to look at HHO. And its not only Summer, whats to stop this person 'mis-selling' dishonestly other horses? Theyve obviously got no scruples!
I dont think you should sign anything anyway, and if you did it would be signed 'under duress' and not legal.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (26 August 2015)

Don't worry, you can sign whatever they  like, there is plenty of evidence to use against them, sign it off and as she leaves the yard, say cheerily," my solicitor advises me to sign this, as it has no legal substance." 
It is a good idea to have an interested observer on the yard, he is not introduced, but is within earshot.
Make sure you get a photo of her vehicle. Make her stress out. There is nothing you can do for the horse except make sure the chip matches the passport and hang on to the passport.
Email her vet telling them not to issue a new one, it is quite easy, send the same email to all her local vet practices telling them the horse has a passport already and it must not be re passported in a different name.  Make sure they have read the email and ask them to confirm this is their client, , though they won't.
If you link to this thread, it will be read.


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## Goldenstar (26 August 2015)

I've got my fingers crossed for you .


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## brighteyes (26 August 2015)

npage123 said:



			Phew, thank you!

It must be incredibly hard for you at the moment, where it's almost a waiting game and you've got no control over the seller's next action.  The BHS seemed helpful when you've called them before, so maybe call them again once you get the reply letter from the seller, before doing anything.  So unfair that in the meantime you've got to wrap the horse in cotton wool and have all this stress!  Hang in there!
		
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Michen's patient and complete (often repeated) answers to everyone's questions show what a generous and mature person she is. How awful for this to have happened to her, particularly. She has responded graciously to all suggestions and remained polite. I hope to goodness all this gets sorted soon and satisfactorily. 

Dunno about everyone else but I'm keeping an eye out for a really genuine horse for her!


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## Michen (26 August 2015)

Ahh thank you. I'm sure a few friends from the yard will snort at the idea of me being mature lol! It's a rubbish situation and I've had moments from it where I literally thought I was going to have a panic attack or throw something at the wall. 4k is a huge amount of money for me to have as a loan despite having a v well paid job for my age and I thought it would buy me everything I wanted but no. 

There will be a horse out there for me Im sure, perhaps I should be going down the turbo cob route! Thank you for your support, you guys on here have been fab  xxx




brighteyes said:



			Michen's patient and complete (often repeated) answers to everyone's questions show what a generous and mature person she is. How awful for this to have happened to her, particularly. She has responded graciously to all suggestions and remained polite. I hope to goodness all this gets sorted soon and satisfactorily. 

Dunno about everyone else but I'm keeping an eye out for a really genuine horse for her!
		
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## Bernster (26 August 2015)

brighteyes said:



			Michen's patient and complete (often repeated) answers to everyone's questions show what a generous and mature person she is. How awful for this to have happened to her, particularly. She has responded graciously to all suggestions and remained polite. I hope to goodness all this gets sorted soon and satisfactorily. 

Dunno about everyone else but I'm keeping an eye out for a really genuine horse for her!
		
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Here here.  I wish I knew of one, as I think you are fairly local to me.  I do have a wonderfully fab little horse who could do with someone to come and hack him 1/2 a week, if you are local btw !


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## Goldenstar (26 August 2015)

Bernster said:



			Here here.  I wish I knew of one, as I think you are fairly local to me.  I do have a wonderfully fab little horse who could do with someone to come and hack him 1/2 a week, if you are local btw !
		
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That's a great offer Michen it's much easier to try horses if you are riding regularly.


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## Michen (26 August 2015)

Ahh thank you! I'm in newbury. I do have quite a few horses to ride luckily, my good friends lovely one eyed eventer and a tb who is hardly ridden by his owner. 
 Xx




Bernster said:



			Here here.  I wish I knew of one, as I think you are fairly local to me.  I do have a wonderfully fab little horse who could do with someone to come and hack him 1/2 a week, if you are local btw !
		
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## paddy555 (27 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			The glaring thing about that clip is the horrendous under tracking in the trot the horse either has a big soundness issue or is very very incorrectly trained and ridden in this case my sympathy is fully with the horse .
		
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just wondered if your comments are after reading the history of Chazot and from the later videos of him as well? I think he is a very lucky horse to have found someone capable of dealing with his problems and taking responsibility for him. I find it strange that people on this thread have felt that they wouldn't ride this sort of rearer but then when some guy has the balls and experience to do so he gets nit picked and criticised!. 

Hopefully the future for Summer will be as bright and someone will try and get to the root of her problem rather than the usual situation of passing this sort of horse from pillar to post.


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## Speedyfluff (27 August 2015)

paddy555 said:



			just wondered if your comments are after reading the history of Chazot and from the later videos of him as well? I think he is a very lucky horse to have found someone capable of dealing with his problems and taking responsibility for him. I find it strange that people on this thread have felt that they wouldn't ride this sort of rearer but then when some guy has the balls and experience to do so he gets nit picked and criticised!. 

Hopefully the future for Summer will be as bright and someone will try and get to the root of her problem rather than the usual situation of passing this sort of horse from pillar to post.
		
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The reason I for one would not ride that horse is that he is in pain! He is rearing because of pain, not having a strop. I can't believe that you can't clearly see that he is hurting. I think the trainer is obviously a very good rider, far better than I, but he is blind to the fact that the horse is in pain. All he will have achieved is a horse that has learned to work through his pain because no matter how hard he shouts he is not listened to. I really pity the horse. He should have been retired, not made to go through all that torture.


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## tallyho! (27 August 2015)

Goodness. I've just read every post on here.

Michen... huge huge hugs and well done for being so balanced and sensible. I hope you move on, with the horse of your dreams one day and for your horse, I hope she finds peace and happiness one day too. Well done HHO for helping her, HHO really is the best.

I'm jus a bit perplexed at the last few pages... it's a shame that on Michens thread, there were some posters who were new to Chazot and criticised without knowing the full story and compared him to Michen's horse.

I don't think anyone can make comparisons to Chazot. Each horse has a reason for what they do, who knows what that is. It's not something Michen feels she can deal with and why should she? 

There's not many Jean Luc Cornilles out there willing to take on such a horse as Chazot and for that he gets my respect.


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## tallyho! (27 August 2015)

Speedyfluff said:



			The reason I for one would not ride that horse is that he is in pain! He is rearing because of pain, not having a strop. I can't believe that you can't clearly see that he is hurting. I think the trainer is obviously a very good rider, far better than I, but he is blind to the fact that the horse is in pain. All he will have achieved is a horse that has learned to work through his pain because no matter how hard he shouts he is not listened to. I really pity the horse. He should have been retired, not made to go through all that torture.
		
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Sorry but you really need to go and do some reading about Chazot.


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## Speedyfluff (27 August 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Sorry but you really need to go and do some reading about Chazot.
		
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I have viewed most videos. In the lungeing one he is lame in his right hind, and also stepping short with his left. Even in the film with him galloping in the field at liberty, he shows signs of sacroiliac dysfunction. Note how the two hind legs work together, rather like a bunny hop. There is no marked stride differential in the hind legs. This is a classic sign of sacroiliac pain. In walk he only just (not quite) tracks up, whilst most horses have an over-track. I don't see how doing lots of reading about him from people who are making him work and carry a rider will change this.


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## Speedyfluff (27 August 2015)

tallyho! said:



			I'm jus a bit perplexed at the last few pages... it's a shame that on Michens thread, there were some posters who were new to Chazot and criticised without knowing the full story and compared him to Michen's horse.

I don't think anyone can make comparisons to Chazot. Each horse has a reason for what they do, who knows what that is. It's not something Michen feels she can deal with and why should she? 

There's not many Jean Luc Cornilles out there willing to take on such a horse as Chazot and for that he gets my respect.
		
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They are not being compared. They are rearing for very different reasons. Chazot is clearly in pain (can't understand why some people don't see that), whilst Mitchen's mare is rearing because she is scared and shows no signs of discomfort whilst being schooled. Very different.


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## Goldenstar (27 August 2015)

Speedyfluff said:



			They are not being compared. They are rearing for very different reasons. Chazot is clearly in pain (can't understand why some people don't see that), whilst Mitchen's mare is rearing because she is scared and shows no signs of discomfort whilst being schooled. Very different.
		
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Yes it's completely different how anyone can think riding the grey like that is acceptable is beyond me.
Now Michens mare may be carrying a problem I have seen many times horses that have a red line where the problem they are concealing added to the thing they find scary becomes too much and results in rearing napping etc etc .
However she might just not like hacking alone ,teasing out what your dealing with is hard and as Michen bought for a proper price a school mistress and the mare very clearly is not I totally agree with decision she's taken .


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## Fun Times (27 August 2015)

Not specific to the grey horse (about whom I know nothing) but, perhaps controversially, I take issue with the "blanket view" that a horse "in pain" should never be worked. My horse has SI issues. The very worst thing for him is to be out of work. When he is out of work he loses muscle rapidly and this means there is less support around the affected joint. My vets words were "this horse needs to come back into work right now, otherwise he is going to melt away in front of you." I am clearly very careful as to how I work my horse and I know when to recognise the signs that something is too much for him. I of course do not advocate pushing horses in significant pain to any degree. But equally to condemn every horse to "rest" because it is not 100% would rule out a large proportion of tbe UK's riding horses in my view and would not necessarily be to their benefit. 

Anyway, aside from this little deviation, good luck Mitchen and I for one am keeping everything crossed the Pony Purchase Number 3 turns out to be your horse of a lifetime....for all the right reasons this time!!


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## Speedyfluff (27 August 2015)

Fun Times said:



			Not specific to the grey horse (about whom I know nothing) but, perhaps controversially, I take issue with the "blanket view" that a horse "in pain" should never be worked. My horse has SI issues. The very worst thing for him is to be out of work. When he is out of work he loses muscle rapidly and this means there is less support around the affected joint. My vets words were "this horse needs to come back into work right now, otherwise he is going to melt away in front of you." I am clearly very careful as to how I work my horse and I know when to recognise the signs that something is too much for him. I of course do not advocate pushing horses in significant pain to any degree. But equally to condemn every horse to "rest" because it is not 100% would rule out a large proportion of tbe UK's riding horses in my view and would not necessarily be to their benefit.
		
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I bet you don't work him in collected sitting trot in a hollow outline though? You are also well aware of his issue which is not the case, obviously with Chazot.


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## Goldenstar (27 August 2015)

Of course horses in less than 100% athletic health can be worked in an suitable     way but working a horse showing the kind of way of going the grey was in that clip is not on .


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## Speedyfluff (27 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Yes it's completely different how anyone can think riding the grey like that is acceptable is beyond me.
Now Michens mare may be carrying a problem I have seen many times horses that have a red line where the problem they are concealing added to the thing they find scary becomes too much and results in rearing napping etc etc .
However she might just not like hacking alone ,teasing out what your dealing with is hard and as Michen bought for a proper price a school mistress and the mare very clearly is not I totally agree with decision she's taken .
		
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Yes I have seen this also. Some horses in pain will work quietly but then if something else upsets them, such as something scary, they will completely lose the plot and show extreme reaction, such as rearing, which had they not been in pain, they probably wouldn't have. I have also known horses in pain to be much more spooky.


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## Luci07 (27 August 2015)

We had a horse on the yard and the only sign he gave something was wrong was at his paces started to lack expression. He was placed at at a BE event, went to the nationals but rider felt he was "of" somehow. She was right. When vet checked, the vet said he should have been hopping lame but he wasn't. He was scanned, turned away for 2 months and is now back to his normal self.


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## siennamiller (27 August 2015)

Michen- it doesn't matter if you sign something saying you will keep quiet, the are several hundred people on here who haven't signed, and will happily intervene if necessary, me included


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## criso (27 August 2015)

There is an assumption that what Michen is asked to sign is to keep quiet.   However it may be something accepting that she is taking the £3000 to settle this once and for all and  won't be making any further claims against the seller.  I would be reasonably normal in this sort of situation.


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## Michen (27 August 2015)

Guys, I'm going to have to draw a line under this now and ask that you all do the same if possible.  It's getting so stressful and I just need the horse gone, signature or no signature  

Xxx

Edited to say- not that I don't appreciate all of your opinions and help, I really do, you've all been fab. I just need to ensure that everything goes smoothly from here onwards for my own sanity and I know people are reading this thread  xx


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## npage123 (27 August 2015)

I think we all will fully understand your decision to end this thread, Michen.  You've got enough on your hands and don't need to come online to update/answer questions.  You've been remarkable from the very start, and I trust this will all be over very soon for you.  Best of luck. Please DON'T feel obliged to reply back to my message - just wanted to say best of luck to you.


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## PolarSkye (27 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			The glaring thing about that clip is the horrendous under tracking in the trot the horse either has a big soundness issue or is very very incorrectly trained and ridden in this case my sympathy is fully with the horse .
		
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Certainly not a pleasing picture - also very long in the back indicating a possible weakness (and will certainly make it harder to track up/overtrack).  Could be tension, could be pain, could be poor training - but, in any event, not particularly pleasing to watch - however, JLC was in the process of training this horse so vid could be taken as being "a moment in time" . . . or part of the journey.  I did blanche at the lack of hat, however - particularly on a known rearer (and crikey did that boy go up!).  I know it's a cultural thing, but it did make me wince.  

P


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## PolarSkye (27 August 2015)

Michen said:



			Guys, I'm going to have to draw a line under this now and ask that you all do the same if possible.  It's getting so stressful and I just need the horse gone, signature or no signature  

Xxx

Edited to say- not that I don't appreciate all of your opinions and help, I really do, you've all been fab. I just need to ensure that everything goes smoothly from here onwards for my own sanity and I know people are reading this thread  xx
		
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I wish you the best of luck - really . . . you deserve a break.  Hugs from me.

P


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## OWLIE185 (27 August 2015)

I think you have been very mature about the whole matter and must applaud you.
I very much hope that you find yourself a lovely horse and enjoy many happy years of riding.
With all my best wishes................


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## Michen (27 August 2015)

Thanks all. It's a fab thread and should be helpful to others. Just don't want to discuss the agreement etc and jeprodise the mare going back xx


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## paddy555 (28 August 2015)

Speedyfluff said:



			I have viewed most videos. In the lungeing one he is lame in his right hind, and also stepping short with his left. Even in the film with him galloping in the field at liberty, he shows signs of sacroiliac dysfunction. Note how the two hind legs work together, rather like a bunny hop. There is no marked stride differential in the hind legs. This is a classic sign of sacroiliac pain. In walk he only just (not quite) tracks up, whilst most horses have an over-track. I don't see how doing lots of reading about him from people who are making him work and carry a rider will change this.
		
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the reading will explain why he is in pain, especially about the hind end situation. It will also explain how JLC worked the horse to deal with that. Unfortunately it does require the effort of reading. It is not a case of comparing Chazot to Summer but of learning from exactly why Chazot had problems and how JLC worked to resolve them. Those reasons may well be relevant to Summer and to other problem horses. The videos are simply work in progress. Off course Chazot looks dreadful in the early ones, he had a lot of problems. 

What totally amazed me was that JLC must have been over 65 in those videos. 

The reading took me about 4 hours. I learnt loads as I had never even heard of JLC so thank you Michen for this thread as I have learnt so much.


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## npage123 (28 August 2015)

paddy555 said:



			the reading will explain why he is in pain, especially about the hind end situation. It will also explain how JLC worked the horse to deal with that. Unfortunately it does require the effort of reading. It is not a case of comparing Chazot to Summer but of learning from exactly why Chazot had problems and how JLC worked to resolve them. Those reasons may well be relevant to Summer and to other problem horses. The videos are simply work in progress. Off course Chazot looks dreadful in the early ones, he had a lot of problems. 

What totally amazed me was that JLC must have been over 65 in those videos. 

The reading took me about 4 hours. I learnt loads as I had never even heard of JLC so thank you Michen for this thread as I have learnt so much.
		
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paddy555 - I couldn't agree with you more. Jean Luc Cornille has made available DVD and books, scientistif biomechanics assessment, dvds, clinics, online info and some videos to explain what he has/is doing with his horse and he is treating every horse as ad individual and help to identify the tiniest tension in an individual small muscle on the day (not saying he's ignoring the bigger picture) - one type of rehab riding is not the cure all and be all for all horses.  He is using a tailor-made approach for each horse.  It's not fair to bash or ciritize a highly regarded expert on a short ridden/in hand video before reading any of the background.

Incidentally, if your upset or admire anything you see on his riding/teaching method - there is a section on his website where all questions are answered promplty.  Perhaps those who slated him, could as ask the rider himself about what they had seen only (via their website 'science in motion' or their facebook page.)

BUT please anyone wanting to add for opinions on Jean Luc Cornille or Chazot:  START A NEW THREAD WITH ALL YOUR OPINIONS AND OBSERVATOINS ON Jeacn Luc Cornille and his training methods.




MUCHIN HAS REQUESTED TO DRAW A LINE UNDER THIS THREAD (SEE POST *413) ,she thanked everyone for their input but she needs a well deserved break from constantly coming back online to read any new message and new replies.

Sorry to shout in CAPS - I wated to make soure ALL REGULAR HHO USERS HAS SEEN MUCHEN'S POST *413


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