# Appalling behaviour from a so-called professional



## Stoxx (13 June 2012)

A so-called professional (small time) rider/ trainer has behaved in the most horrendous way (unprovoked) whilst being paid to ride a horse.  The horse has no visible injuries but it was witnessed.

This person has not got any BHS qualifications.

Is there anyone that could or should be notified about this?

It seems wrong that people like this can just get away with it.  I have learnt that this is most definitely not an isolated case.

Thanks


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## carthorse (13 June 2012)

Dont think their is much that can be done but people might hear about it and stop sending horses to him/her. Very sad that some people take their temper out on a horse


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## livetoride (14 June 2012)

What happened? It's a bit difficult to answer your question without knowing what they are alleged to have done.


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## Stoxx (14 June 2012)

This person has form for loosing 'it's' temper it has now been realised.  It has been caught on camera before and went viral on the internet, this was a number of years ago.  However the 'treatment' that horse received was not the same and it would appear the 'method's' (the person's words) have got worse.

Until I am sure what course of action will be taken I will not share the details, believe me, I'm no bunny hugger and neither is the person that witnessed and attempted to stop what happened.  Totally totally unacceptable and a welfare issue as far as I am concerned.

I will add this is not my horse or rider, so it's not sour grapes, I am just helping the owner to find out if anything can be done.


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## PoppyAnderson (14 June 2012)

I've witnessed very well known names doing all manner of horrendous things over the years. Have made them public, named and shamed, spoken to people - it goes on day in and day out and there's pretty much nowt you can do about it.


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## kerilli (14 June 2012)

^^^ this, unfortunately.
recent revelations about a v v famous horseman using water deprivation are an example. despicable and inexcusable imho.
OP, i hope this person's name does get out there eventually, so that at least people are warned off sending their horses there.


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## BBH (14 June 2012)

I think you could advise a regulated body if they belong to one.

The biggest threat to people like this is to get the word out there and hit them in the pocket. Don't put their name on a public forum but spread the word via pm or verbally when people ask for recommendations.

It does work.


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## MagicMelon (14 June 2012)

Unless you can catch it on tape, its probably very difficult to prove and therefore get anything done about it. I dont even know what the RSPCA would do if they saw video footage, is that enough for a person to get "done" for it?  At least if you got video footage, you could put it all over You Tube and hopefully it'd damage their reputation enough that less horses would go to this person.


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## Stoxx (14 June 2012)

I know this kind of thing goes on in professional yards.  And I know there are a lot of people getting away with things they shouldn't.

However this person was riding a (how can I put this without sounding rude) very 'normal' horse and was only expected to walk and trot for the owner on their livery yard, not 'behind closed doors' as such.  I know that doesn't change anything but I think the person is praying on those that perhaps don't know better.

The cctv will be checked today to see if it picked it up.  I hope it did.

Reprimanding a horse with a whip etc is one thing, what this person did was something very different.  What worries me is the person sells themselves as being sensitive and has all the talk and yet clearly can not control their temper in any way shape or form.

Thanks for your input.  I didn't think there would be anyone to complain to however it was worth asking.  If there is video footage it will be sent to the RSPCA, as much as I think they are generally a bit useless, they may be interested.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (14 June 2012)

Um, sorry am confused by this thread.

OP doesn't need to name names here on this public forum, but it would help to have an idea of what happened???

Sorry, mebbe its just me being numpty. But a general description of the alleged incident may help to clarify?


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## Marydoll (14 June 2012)

Is post makes no sense to me whatsoever.
We are all aware that many people, famous and not so famous, use methods for training, diciplining that are at best poor, and at worst cruel.
This post is " i think" about a relatively wellknown rider who has been seen doing something, nasty, bad, or cruel to a horse ...... Which we all know happens at all levels, so if youre not naming and shaming, youre really not telling us anything we dont know, sorry if that sounds dismissive but in order to stop people sending them horses, people need to know, what they did ? And who is it ?


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## Stoxx (14 June 2012)

If you had read the post correctly you would know that this person is not well known.

You would also have realised that I was asking if there was anyone that could be reported to.

ETA:  Just because it happens, it does not make it right.  Seeing as people seem to think I'm a bunny hugger, in brief the horse was beaten around the head with full body weight behind fists up to about 30 times - this was to 'teach' the horse not to lean on their hands - almongst other equally vile things.  And no the person would not stop when told to or admit they were wrong.  This is a 'method'.

Should anyone in the Essex area wish to avoid this pondlife please feel free to PM me.


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## Kat (14 June 2012)

If they are members of BD/BE/BS then report it to them and they can take action. 

If not is it severe enough to report to WHW/BHS Welfare dept?


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## Marydoll (14 June 2012)

Ok, in order to know where report someone, we still need to know what theyve done, but youve not said ?? Youre asking who they can be reported to, but for what ?
If its blatant cruelty, then WHW, all the better if youve got video footage.
Its impossible to comment on something and advise where to take it, when we dont know what " it" is
And i did read the post, i said a "relatively" well known rider, as in, possibly in your area, is the perpetrator of the unknown act. What i did say is that basically all levels of rider can be cruel youre implying that the rider is riding for someone, im assuming for payment, as youve also said theyre " praying on people " so they taking money for riding, and if theyre " praying " on folks then they have others they ride for??
Agin the post is so cryptic its nigh on impossible to say who to report to.


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## jojo5 (14 June 2012)

Have pm'ed OP


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## Amaranta (14 June 2012)

OP have pm'd you


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## WandaMare (14 June 2012)

Just another tack but would reporting them achieve anything anyway? its unlikely that an organisation would take action unless they have comprehensive evidence.

It might be more effective to confront this person and directly discuss your concerns. Who else do they ride for? Are they sponsored? Could you speak to the people who are most significant to this person and see what they can do to help. If they are unaware there is cruelty involved they might withdraw their business/ support etc. IME this would be more of a concern to the individual than a report to the RSPCA etc. which they are more than likely to wriggle out of especially if they have done it before.


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## flyingfeet (14 June 2012)

If you have it on video, post it on YouTube

No reason why the world shouldn't see these "training methods" and may be enough to prevent this person from ever doing it again


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## Suziq77 (14 June 2012)

Personally I think if someone videoed the whole thing they aren't wholly blameless either, I cannot imagine standing by and watching something like that!


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## Stoxx (14 June 2012)

WandaMare, yes, thanks, what happened has been passed on to the trainer (who is disgusted) and others that need to know.

Suziq7, it would be caught on cctv if we have video evidence... no one just stood by!


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## elliefiz (14 June 2012)

OP, im in essex and have PM'ed you


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## Marydoll (14 June 2012)

Stoxx said:



			If you had read the post correctly you would know that this person is not well known.

You would also have realised that I was asking if there was anyone that could be reported to.

ETA:  Just because it happens, it does not make it right.  Seeing as people seem to think I'm a bunny hugger, in brief the horse was beaten around the head with full body weight behind fists up to about 30 times - this was to 'teach' the horse not to lean on their hands - almongst other equally vile things.  And no the person would not stop when told to or admit they were wrong.  This is a 'method'.

Should anyone in the Essex area wish to avoid this pondlife please feel free to PM me.
		
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Excuse me  i hope this comment isnt aimed at me !! Where have i said it makes it right, i didnt even know what was done . And if you saw it being done and did nothing then shame on you.
By all means be outraged but dont ever infer that i would be in agreement with any horse being treated in this manner.
If you had posted accurately about the incident people wouldnt need to speculate.


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## Suziq77 (14 June 2012)

Stoxx said:



			WandaMare, yes, thanks, what happened has been passed on to the trainer (who is disgusted) and others that need to know.

Suziq7, it would be caught on cctv if we have video evidence... no one just stood by!
		
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PHEW!!!!  Then I hope you have evidence and can get something done!!


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## Stoxx (14 June 2012)

You make a lot of assumptions Marydoll!


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## Marydoll (14 June 2012)

Well its difficult to do otherwise the way you posted.
Your last post infers because i say  horse cruelty is at all levels i condone it when nothing could be further from the truth.


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## Stoxx (14 June 2012)

I would never say such a thing about someone I don't know!  It was meant as a general statement.

And while we are clearing things up... I most certainly would not stand by and allow this to happen.  It has come as a great shock as the owner thought she knew this person and trusted them.


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## BBH (14 June 2012)

If its any help OP I understood your post perfectly.

Its very clear to me that you are saying you have witnessed cruelty and want to know if there is anywhere you can report it to.


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## Amymay (14 June 2012)

Stoxx said:



			the horse was beaten around the head with full body weight behind fists up to about 30 times - this was to 'teach' the horse not to lean on their hands - almongst other equally vile things.  And no the person would not stop when told to or admit they were wrong.  This is a 'method'.
		
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And the owner stood and watched this???


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## Walrus (14 June 2012)

Agree with BBH, I think the OPs posts are quite clear about what has gone on. From the OPs first and second posts it's clear that this is a so called professional (so probably reasonably well known regionally) person who is being paid to ride a fairly push button horse for a less experienced owner. The professional was then witnessed being cruel in some way to the horse (we can all guess this implies a beating of some description - temper was mentioned).

OP hasn't asked about the rights and wrongs or gone to name said lowlife but has asked about reporting to some sort of authority if the professional isn't a BHS registered instructor.

OP - if you have cctv evidence you could try WHW or something but agree with a few posters on here, if you can get the word out (or get it viral on the internet) ther best way to hit people like this is through the pocket and to discourage inncoent owners from putting business their way (without getting yourself into somesort of equine slanging match / b*tchfest that the horseworld is so good at generating!).


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## Marydoll (14 June 2012)

Stoxx said:



			I would never say such a thing about someone I don't know!  It was meant as a general statement.

And while we are clearing things up... I most certainly would not stand by and allow this to happen.  It has come as a great shock as the owner thought she knew this person and trusted them.
		
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Thats good to know thanks, and im glad you wouldnt stand and watch a horse being attacked, my apologies information wasnt there when we cross posted


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## PooJay (14 June 2012)

what a horrible story  poor horse! 

OP i really hope you manage to get him in trouble - at the very least prevent him getting hold of any horses in the future  poor animal!


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## Rosiefan (14 June 2012)

Stoxx said:



			in brief the horse was beaten around the head with full body weight behind fists up to about 30 times - this was to 'teach' the horse not to lean on their hands - almongst other equally vile things.  And no *the person would not stop when told to or admit they were wrong*.  This is a 'method'.

Should anyone in the Essex area wish to avoid this pondlife please feel free to PM me.
		
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I think Stoxx has made it clear that nobody just stood by watching. 

I will PM you as I'm in Essex Stoxx.


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## Stoxx (14 June 2012)

Thank you to those who have given me some constructive advice.  Fingers crossed it was caught on the camera's.

AmyMay, no of course not.  The lovely owner was off making said rider a cup of tea when this happened and came back at a time when the YM was attempting to get the rider to stop.  Needless to say the rider was thrown off the yard.


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## Moomin1 (14 June 2012)

Give a witness statement to the RSPCA (sorry if I have got this wrong - if you are Scotland the SSPCA) and if you know the other witnesses get them to do the same.  People have and do get prosecuted for much less than this.  It sounds like some force was used.

To put it in perspective, a traveller was recently convicted of causing unnecessary suffering by kicking a horse in the flank twice.  There was only one witness.


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## Moomin1 (14 June 2012)

marydoll said:



			Ok, in order to know where report someone, we still need to know what theyve done, but youve not said ?? Youre asking who they can be reported to, but for what ?
If its blatant cruelty, then WHW, all the better if youve got video footage.
Its impossible to comment on something and advise where to take it, when we dont know what " it" is
And i did read the post, i said a "relatively" well known rider, as in, possibly in your area, is the perpetrator of the unknown act. What i did say is that basically all levels of rider can be cruel youre implying that the rider is riding for someone, im assuming for payment, as youve also said theyre " praying on people " so they taking money for riding, and if theyre " praying " on folks then they have others they ride for??
Agin the post is so cryptic its nigh on impossible to say who to report to.
		
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There is no point in this instance sending any footage or statements to WHW - they will just pass it onto the RSPCA to prosecute.  OP should just directly get in contact with the RSPCA, and provide witness statements.


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## Stoxx (14 June 2012)

Thank you, that is very helpful.  There were a total of 3 witnesses (the other previously unmentioned was attempting to stay on their horse who had been upset by what was going on)


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## Moomin1 (14 June 2012)

Stoxx said:



			Thank you, that is very helpful.  There were a total of 3 witnesses (the other previously unmentioned was attempting to stay on their horse who had been upset by what was going on)
		
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If all of you are willing to give a statement and attend court if need be then it sounds like you have a strong case!


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## Amymay (14 June 2012)

Stoxx said:



			AmyMay, no of course not.  The lovely owner was off making said rider a cup of tea when this happened and came back at a time when the YM was attempting to get the rider to stop.  Needless to say the rider was thrown off the yard.
		
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Thanks for clarifying.

Just terrible


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## Lady La La (14 June 2012)

Stoxx said:



			Should anyone in the Essex area wish to avoid this pondlife please feel free to PM me.
		
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I have PM'ed you, as also in Essex. Sounds awful


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## Amaranta (14 June 2012)

Thanks for the PM OP, not the person I thought it was, but am shocked to see he has a spanish horse, so may well come across him.  Also checked his BD record and he is registered with them but has not competed (at least not at Novice or above) so from that would surmise that he is not a BD approved trainer (thought if he was that they would be a good place to start re reporting him).

It does sound like you have a good case and I hope that the cctv caught it and that WHW/RSPCA throw the book at him.


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## Jambo (14 June 2012)

Stoxx said:



			If you had read the post correctly you would know that this person is not well known.

You would also have realised that I was asking if there was anyone that could be reported to.

ETA:  Just because it happens, it does not make it right.  Seeing as people seem to think I'm a bunny hugger, in brief the horse was beaten around the head with full body weight behind fists up to about 30 times - this was to 'teach' the horse not to lean on their hands - almongst other equally vile things.  And no the person would not stop when told to or admit they were wrong.  This is a 'method'.

Should anyone in the Essex area wish to avoid this pondlife please feel free to PM me.
		
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I completely understood your post OP, I have also PM'd you


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## angelish (14 June 2012)

thats really shocking 

i'd tell everyone who'd listen what happened in the hope that "it" wouldn't be trusted to ride anyone elses horses in future 

if i have read the info right this person has done this to someones horse on a livery yard in front of a small group of people ?
i'd be frightened to even imagine what "it" gets up to where people can't see "it"


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (14 June 2012)

Ehm, sorry if I'm coming in a different slant here: BUT if this has been reported to the RSPCA........ and people are expecting them to do something about it, then (hate to say this) don't hold your breath's coz its likely they'll do sweet FA about it.


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## Stoxx (14 June 2012)

I have spoken to the owner & made her aware that this is a route she could go down.  What they choose to do is up to them & the other witnesses.
My faith in the RSPCA isn't great either!!


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## Moomin1 (14 June 2012)

angelish said:



			thats really shocking 

i'd tell everyone who'd listen what happened in the hope that "it" wouldn't be trusted to ride anyone elses horses in future 

if i have read the info right this person has done this to someones horse on a livery yard in front of a small group of people ?
i'd be frightened to even imagine what "it" gets up to where people can't see "it"
		
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I wonder if the witness in the recent case of a traveller being succesfully prosecuted would say the same.  Or maybe the witnesses involved in a large scale cockfighting/equine/dogs case which was VERY succesfully prosecuted a few weeks ago.

Of course it's entirely down to the owner/witnesses. If they would rather not bother, going from other people's 'knowledge' that nothing will be done then suppose there is no point doing anything.


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## Stoxx (14 June 2012)

Moomin, they want something done & they want to go about it in the correct way.

I don't want to influence their decision which is why I am discussing options with them. They are still rather shocked to be honest.

If it were me I would inform anyone I could even if it came to nothing...


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## Moomin1 (14 June 2012)

Stoxx said:



			Moomin, they want something done & they want to go about it in the correct way.

I don't want to influence their decision which is why I am discussing options with them. They are still rather shocked to be honest.

If it were me I would inform anyone I could even if it came to nothing...
		
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Sorry - I misquoted in my last post - I was meant to quote the comment about not reporting to the RSPCA because they will do nothing.  

I fully agree that they should report it!


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## Quadro (14 June 2012)

I have been in a similar situation to you although not the same (person involved is often recommend on here as a trainer and the things i have seen i wouldn't let her feed my guinea pig!)
We really felt like there was not much we could do but the horse in question was removed asap!! Later found out other people have had similar experiances but have all felt helpless as there isn't really anyone who you can report this kind of thing to sadly  
The fact it goes on is testimony to that sadly 
Q


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## Moomin1 (14 June 2012)

Quadro said:



			I have been in a similar situation to you although not the same (person involved is often recommend on here as a trainer and the things i have seen i wouldn't let her feed my guinea pig!)
We really felt like there was not much we could do but the horse in question was removed asap!! Later found out other people have had similar experiances but have all felt helpless as there isn't really anyone who you can report this kind of thing to sadly  
The fact it goes on is testimony to that sadly 
Q
		
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I really really don't understand the logic that there isn't anyone who you can report this kind of thing to?  It is potentially causing unnecessary suffering and provided the RSPCA can get a decent witness/es and a vet to support then they WILL progress.  I know, they have and they do.


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## millsandboon (14 June 2012)

How is the horse?


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## Daytona (14 June 2012)

I caught a man a livery yard once hitting his two scared polo ponies over the head with a torch as they were frightened due to him trying to get them both at same time through a narrow gate and they would no go, he never seen me approaching but knew about it soon enough when a whacked him full force across the side of the head with a riding crop bursting his ear clean open,  I nearly got kicked off the yard but I did not care I got great satisfaction out of the fact he now knew what it felt like to be beaten about the head with a object.  B**t**d he was..!!!  No excuses for being cruel to animals, he was lucky I was not there or it would of been given some of his own medicine.


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## Stoxx (14 June 2012)

millsandboon said:



			How is the horse?
		
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The horse seems normal.  Unfortunately I'm not sure this was an isolated incident (although I have no proof) as it would explain the odd relationship between the horse and person.  
The owners will give the horse some time and take it easy for a while in the hope they can start afresh with someone deserving of their trust.


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## undertheweather (14 June 2012)

Ludoctro said:



			I caught a man a livery yard once hitting his two scared polo ponies over the head with a torch as they were frightened due to him trying to get them both at same time through a narrow gate and they would no go, he never seen me approaching but knew about it soon enough when a whacked him full force across the side of the head with a riding crop bursting his ear clean open,  I nearly got kicked off the yard but I did not care I got great satisfaction out of the fact he now knew what it felt like to be beaten about the head with a object.  B**t**d he was..!!!  No excuses for being cruel to animals, he was lucky I was not there or it would of been given some of his own medicine.
		
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Admitting to physical assault/GBH on a public forum is *not* a clever idea Ludoctro. You can be easily traced.


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## jaijai (14 June 2012)

OP -have pm'd you as I am also in Essex.


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## Daytona (14 June 2012)

This was over 12 years ago and if they can track down person and see if they want to complain - trace away


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## JessPickle (15 June 2012)

Ludoctro said:



			This was over 12 years ago and if they can track down person and see if they want to complain - trace away
		
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I think the saying 2 wrongs don't make a right comes to mind here.

Your proving nothing by acting just as aggressively as the person involved!


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## Ferdinase514 (15 June 2012)

Looking at it's website, I would use the term "professional" very loosely....


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## BBH (15 June 2012)

I think the lesson for all of us at all times is research anyone you intend becoming involved with you or your horses.

Afterall we have the ways of doing this so much easier these days.

Its not the courts these people need worry about its the internet.


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## Stoxx (15 June 2012)

FinnMcCoul said:



			Looking at it's website, I would use the term "professional" very loosely....
		
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Whilst I agree FMC, the person is still being paid to teach and ride horses in this area.  I have no idea why though... it is a rubbish instructor anyway but each to their own!


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## woodtiger (15 June 2012)

OP, I've pm'd you too.


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## YasandCrystal (15 June 2012)

I have pm'd you - I have no idea if the trainer is the same as the one who abused my horse. My horse was full on punched in the face and whipped from behind on the ground in the stable. He consequently hates being stabled now. He was terrified of the trainer. This trainer has been recommended on the H&H forum by several members strangely enough, which just shows how they can get away with it!
It's wicked


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## Farma (15 June 2012)

Stoxx said:



			Whilst I agree FMC, the person is still being paid to teach and ride horses in this area.  I have no idea why though... it is a rubbish instructor anyway but each to their own!
		
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The main pic on the website  I would mortified if there was a pic taken of me riding with my hands like that!


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## BBH (15 June 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			I have pm'd you - I have no idea if the trainer is the same as the one who abused my horse. My horse was full on punched in the face and whipped from behind on the ground in the stable. He consequently hates being stabled now. He was terrified of the trainer. This trainer has been recommended on the H&H forum by several members strangely enough, which just shows how they can get away with it!
It's wicked 

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Well every time you see someone recommend this person PM the person doing the recommendation and the person asking and let them know what sort of person this is and your experience. They may thank you for it as it saves a lot of heartache.

I think its very unlikely this sort of behaviour is a one off.


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## YasandCrystal (15 June 2012)

BBH said:



			Well every time you see someone recommend this person PM the person doing the recommendation and the person asking and let them know what sort of person this is and your experience. They may thank you for it as it saves a lot of heartache.

I think its very unlikely this sort of behaviour is a one off.
		
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Very true. Definately not a one off. I did a 'search' on his name on here and that is how I saw old recommendations and praise so probably inappropriate to drag up those old threads. But I agree that the best policy is to tell people when the name pops up.

Trouble is I have done that with dealers and people don't always heed advice


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## ellie_e (15 June 2012)

What the hell did the guy do??


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## NooNoo59 (15 June 2012)

yes what did they do and who is it, people on our yard send horses away for training and would like to them a heads up


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## Quadro (15 June 2012)

moomin1 we did contact the sspca but they need video evidence which as you can imagine is really hard to get! They take the view that its your word against thiers and they say that it could be grudges etc 
Q


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## BBH (15 June 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			Very true. Definately not a one off. I did a 'search' on his name on here and that is how I saw old recommendations and praise so probably inappropriate to drag up those old threads. But I agree that the best policy is to tell people when the name pops up.

*Trouble is I have done that with dealers and people don't always heed advice *

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It does work. An accredited trainer has lost a lot of business through this method. Person was silly enough to sell a broken horse to someone who stood up for herself and got her money back. From her research it was apparent that this was not a one off.  From what we know at least 6 people have been dissuaded from buying horses.

No-one likes to do this but genuine honest people have to have ways to protect themselves and find out as much as possible about the people they are buying from. In this case not even an accreditation and affiliation to a recognised body has offered a safe guard when buying and if anything may lull people into a false sense of security.


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## YasandCrystal (15 June 2012)

vanessa roberts said:



			yes what did they do and who is it, people on our yard send horses away for training and would like to them a heads up
		
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If you look at the top of page 4 - there is a quote saying that the rider used their body weight to box the horse about the head 30 or so times repeatedly to teach it not to lean on the bit.

The trainer I refer to abuses both on the ground and ridden - via punching whipping - excessive use of the whip and violent reaction.

I would not allow anyone to ride my horse without watching them - I have heard too many tales of abuse and it only takes one incident to ruin a horse's trust.


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## Moomin1 (15 June 2012)

Quadro said:



			moomin1 we did contact the sspca but they need video evidence which as you can imagine is really hard to get! They take the view that its your word against thiers and they say that it could be grudges etc 
Q
		
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Well I don't know about the SSPCA - they are a seperate charity completely.  But to say they need video footage otherwise they can't do anything is wrong.  The RSPCA can and do take hundreds of cases each year with just the account of a witness.  Not quite sure why the SSPCA feel differently on that one.


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## Quadro (15 June 2012)

The sspca have told me that they could collect a stray dog as it was not there job!!! Dog in question was covered in sores and shaking with every bone in his body visable (have pics). When they did come 6 hours later they complained about it going on that it was "not thier job"!
Q


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## fatpiggy (15 June 2012)

The term professional means someone earns money from doing whatever. It doesn't reflect  their ability or standards.  I'm afraid I've seen some awful sights too with animals in the hands of professionals including a young mare being loaded in a lorry for the first time.  She ended up on 2 weeks box rest from it and was lucky that's all it was. Personally, I think the best weapon is word of mouth.  Who hasn't asked about people offering services locally and been given chapter and verse as to why Person X should be avoided at all costs?


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## Ferdinase514 (15 June 2012)

Stoxx said:



			Whilst I agree FMC, the person is still being paid to teach and ride horses in this area.  I have no idea why though... it is a rubbish instructor anyway but each to their own!
		
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Amazing. Not surpirsed horsesl lean on its hands looking at the photos.


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