# Crufts 2018



## blackcob (8 March 2018)

Who is going, what shopping bargains are there, thoughts on the TV coverage?

Just heard Clare Balding confidently assert that samoyeds were bred to herd moose, my sammy friend is frothing.  

Not showing a dog this year, just taking mum shopping as my mother's day treat, and doing some puppy networking.


----------



## {97702} (8 March 2018)

Why.... just why.....


----------



## blackcob (8 March 2018)

To buy more stuff I don't need.


----------



## {97702} (8 March 2018)

Hmmmph that is not a valid reason 

Mind you I smiled at the Mothers Day treat idea - my mum is going on Saturday (obviously) so I am taking her out for lunch on Sunday, phew I missed it


----------



## Annette4 (8 March 2018)

We were there today; not many bargains (as always) but stayed on list and be in budget, lots of corgi cuddles (may have had a little cry when I spotted one the spit of Jack-in my defence yesterday would have been his 14th birthday) and got to watch the flyball and agility.


----------



## maisie06 (8 March 2018)

Waits with trepidation to see what wins the gundog section...


----------



## MurphysMinder (8 March 2018)

I've been watching groups live on youtube. Slightly less inane comments than on tv coverage but still annoys me.  I have picked both group winners so far though


----------



## MotherOfChickens (8 March 2018)

nice to see a decent breed come 3rd in the Pastoral 


why can't breeders give nice names? poor Corgi being called XX Mr Blobby. bleurgh.


----------



## Cahill (8 March 2018)

not liking the gsd`s


----------



## maisie06 (8 March 2018)

I think those breeds bred to work should actually do a working test of some sorts...I think many of the GSD's would struggle, their hind ends are shocking, why are we breeding disabled dogs???


----------



## CorvusCorax (8 March 2018)

Whether or not one's cup of tea, GSD Best of Breed is IPO3 (highest available working test) and has A-Stamp hips and elbows (best available under German scheme).


----------



## {97702} (8 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			Whether or not one's cup of tea, GSD Best of Breed is IPO3 (highest available working test) and has A-Stamp hips and elbows (best available under German scheme).
		
Click to expand...

Ah here we go, the annual GSD debate


----------



## MurphysMinder (8 March 2018)

Lévrier;13738230 said:
			
		


			Ah here we go, the annual GSD debate 

Click to expand...

CC is more patient than me.  I am so fed up of it decided not to comment (and now I have  )


----------



## CorvusCorax (8 March 2018)

No debate from me, that's all I have to say on the matter....


----------



## {97702} (8 March 2018)

Its OK, it will switch to cavaliers on Saturday


----------



## {97702} (8 March 2018)

MurphysMinder said:



			CC is more patient than me.  I am so fed up of it decided not to comment (and now I have  )
		
Click to expand...

Sorry MM....


----------



## CorvusCorax (8 March 2018)

Shopping! Show us your shopping!!!!


----------



## MurphysMinder (8 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			Shopping! Show us your shopping!!!!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Annette4 (9 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			Shopping! Show us your shopping!!!!
		
Click to expand...


If you insist


----------



## CorvusCorax (9 March 2018)

Love the jumper and the Batman gear!
(Mr Blobby did actually tickle me...)


----------



## druid (9 March 2018)

Will be there on Sunday for Gundogs - horrendously early flight over!


----------



## Annette4 (9 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			Love the jumper and the Batman gear!
(Mr Blobby did actually tickle me...)
		
Click to expand...

Ill see if I can post the video so Dobby trying to walk in it :lol: 

I do (as always) think the Corgis were robbed but that Collie is bloomin nice!


----------



## PapaverFollis (9 March 2018)

Just checked the pastoral result out of interest to see if how the Smooth Collie got on... so thrilled to see a smooth do well! Lovely dog. If anyone could persuade me to get a pedigree dog ever again it'd be a smooth collie.


----------



## Amye (9 March 2018)

I'm going tomorrow! Been years and years ago but this is the first time with my own dog (previous years gone with parents and bought stuff for their dogs) so looking forward to spoiling him  

I'm interested in watching the agility and flyball, they look like so much fun, and I'm really interested in taking Teddy to agility at some point


----------



## blackcob (9 March 2018)

Loving the Batman gear. Mine have superhero collars for agility, one Marvel/DC logos, one Spiderman. 

Someone at club has just had a smooth collie pup and I got to squeeze it last week, very cute. 

For a giant dog who recently seem disposed to exaggeration I thought the newfie was beautifully moderate and athletic, it looked like what it should be, a big water retriever.

My agility instructor was third in the medium teams today, they've won it a couple of times previously but still chuffed for them. Now eagerly awaiting the large novice ABC final.


----------



## blackcob (9 March 2018)

Absolutely creasing with laughter here this evening at the suffix of the Scottie - Beameup...


----------



## Clodagh (10 March 2018)

So as not to take over the hounds thread. I loved the Manchester terrier, does anyone have one? What are they like? It looked a happy, game little dog. 
The boxer was a bundle of muscle, but I do prefer them with docked tails, same for all the formerly docked ones really, their tail carriage is awful. I suppose there was never any need to breed for a nice tail. Will it be improving? Is there now a tail standard for Dobes, Boxers, Rotties, that sort of thing? I loved the Dobermann, such graceful dogs.


----------



## Clodagh (10 March 2018)

And another thing. Watching the group judging of the working breeds (I think working, the Newfoundland won it - I liked her, she was not obese and moved nicely to my eye, although I know nothing of the breed). Several of them were a bit stiff and resistant to be handled by the judge. He didn't place any of those, so does temperament matter, or would it just be that he didn't particularly like them anyway?
The Neopolitan mastiff was a travesty of a dog, poor thing.


----------



## CorvusCorax (10 March 2018)

Temperament definitely should matter and I do notice the dogs who flinch/shy away. 
Have seen dogs variously placed to the back of the line or excused for temperament issues, as it should be IMO. But ideally not put in that position at all.....
The all rounder judges are a lot more hands on though....my own breed just have teeth and testicles checked and a measuring stick...the dog is not touched otherwise. Not sure how it is for other breeds but it is something a show dog should be trained for.


----------



## splashgirl45 (10 March 2018)

did anyone else think the irish wolfhound wasnt sound? i was surprised he was placed...loved the whippet but it didnt look very happy IMO....loved the temperament of the little jack russell in the terriers, he was loving everything...


----------



## Cahill (10 March 2018)

omg that international agility final was `edge of the seat` stuff !


----------



## blackcob (10 March 2018)

The winning run was phenomenal. Her line heading towards the tunnel for the second time, with a sort of double blind, was genius.


----------



## Cinnamontoast (10 March 2018)

Unbelievable that the judge pulled all three poodles for the utility group. Stupid, IMO. Clearly a poodle fan. :rolleyes3:


----------



## blackcob (10 March 2018)

Poodle yawn.


----------



## CorvusCorax (10 March 2018)

I wish the vet would, er, go and do some vetty things.
(Awaits flinging of rotten vegetables from his legion of fans )


----------



## blackcob (10 March 2018)

I've delayed watching by half an hour so I can fast forward past his smug face.


----------



## 3Beasties (10 March 2018)

blackcob said:



			I've delayed watching by half an hour so I can fast forward past his smug face. 

Click to expand...

Haha, I was calling him Super Smug Vet today!

Great day there today but soooo busy! Left fairly early as we couldn't get in to the main arena and we were shopped out! I somehow managed to spend nearly £90 on treats, chewy things and a tug toy, eeep! Did stick to my list though and got some bargains!


----------



## blackcob (10 March 2018)

Zoomy forward time is also reserved for skipping past heelwork to music, sorry to any fans of it, I just can't. 

I've just seen a video of the queue for the arena today, I'm meant to be meeting friends there tomorrow to watch the champ agility, might have to give it a miss if it's like that again. More shopping time it is!


----------



## dingle12 (10 March 2018)

We have just got back two and half hours waiting to get into the arena we gave up as we had to get back to the bus, gutted to miss it be we got lots of shopping in and saw the smaller arenas


----------



## {97702} (10 March 2018)

cinnamontoast said:



			Unbelievable that the judge pulled all three poodles for the utility group. Stupid, IMO. Clearly a poodle fan. :rolleyes3:
		
Click to expand...

An all-rounder going for the safe bet yet again.....


----------



## Cinnamontoast (10 March 2018)

I really fancy a standard cream or apricot poodle in the future, but that was ridiculous! Bring out the keesie or the spitzes!!


----------



## Cahill (10 March 2018)

blackcob said:



			The winning run was phenomenal. Her line heading towards the tunnel for the second time, with a sort of double blind, was genius. 

Click to expand...

it was brilliant,i am just learning `euro` moves.


----------



## MurphysMinder (11 March 2018)

blackcob said:



			The winning run was phenomenal. Her line heading towards the tunnel for the second time, with a sort of double blind, was genius. 

Click to expand...

It was an amazing run! I think I am doing well if one blind works as I intended ,  and as for remembering a course like that .....


----------



## paddy555 (11 March 2018)

splashgirl45 said:



			did anyone else think the irish wolfhound wasnt sound? i was surprised he was placed...loved the whippet but it didnt look very happy IMO....loved the temperament of the little jack russell in the terriers, he was loving everything...
		
Click to expand...

yes I wondered if the IWH was sound.


----------



## blackcob (11 March 2018)

Quick, more shopping before anything else can kick off.  







Bargain piece of vetbed, Butchers freebies, 1kg of chicken feet, enough treat biscuits to make two plump Siberians and a lead and collar for a dog that hasn't even been conceived yet.


----------



## Amymay (11 March 2018)

I'm going for the Pointer or Papiollon for BIS.


----------



## Evie91 (11 March 2018)

I do love a whippet but have cats and been advised they are no good with small furries! On a different note- I&#8217;d love to know if show dogs have a nice life outside of the ring- some of the breeds look so groomed and fluffed I cant imagine they are allowed a good walk through the countryside, running through muddy puddles and so on! Anyone care to update me?
Think I&#8217;d like the border collie to win.


----------



## {97702} (11 March 2018)

Evie91 said:



			I do love a whippet but have cats and been advised they are no good with small furries! On a different note- I&#8217;d love to know if show dogs have a nice life outside of the ring- some of the breeds look so groomed and fluffed I cant imagine they are allowed a good walk through the countryside, running through muddy puddles and so on! Anyone care to update me?
Think I&#8217;d like the border collie to win.
		
Click to expand...

Some whippets will be lovely with small furries - it very much depends on the individual dog?  If you wanted to find a cat-safe whippet you definitely would     As far as the life of show dogs, some absolutely have a natural lifestyle and some have a very VERY artificial lifestyle... it very much depends on the owner sadly


----------



## Sandstone1 (11 March 2018)

I like the collie and the pointer


----------



## blackcob (11 March 2018)

Can't speak for all show dogs but - my mum's cocker has been to Crufts twice previously. Show cockers are primped and groomed and trimmed to within an inch of their lives. The following day he was turfed out in the paddock to roll in crap and wallow in the stream, as he has every day before and since.  As Lev says it very much depends. 

I'm gonna go for the newfie, there's something I really like about her, can't quite put my finger on it.


----------



## Clodagh (11 March 2018)

I like the Newfie, at least she is cheerful. Also the Papillon and the pointer.


----------



## ihatework (11 March 2018)

That pointer is beautiful. I hope it wins


----------



## blackcob (11 March 2018)

It's all kicking off!


----------



## CorvusCorax (11 March 2018)

What happened?? Fair play to that handler getting her dog out of the way.


----------



## Elbie (11 March 2018)

What just happened in the prize giving?!


----------



## Sandstone1 (11 March 2018)

Dont know what happened there.  I got one out of two.


----------



## Clodagh (11 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			What happened?? Fair play to that handler getting her dog out of the way.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, well done her. What on earth happened?


----------



## blackcob (11 March 2018)

Tried to rewind it but the digibox wotsit is playing up. And yes fair play to her, she grabbed the dog pronto, someone swiftly grabbed the trophy also.


----------



## Elbie (11 March 2018)

blackcob said:



			Tried to rewind it but the digibox wotsit is playing up. And yes fair play to her, she grabbed the dog pronto, someone swiftly grabbed the trophy also. 

Click to expand...

Yeah we tried rewinding on TiVo but couldnt really see what happened!


----------



## Snowfilly (11 March 2018)

Wtf? People and dogs everywhere and my box is refusing to rewind. Poor reserve handler didn't get an interview. Anyone know anything?


----------



## deb_l222 (11 March 2018)

Do you reckon it was the Kurdish?  Theyve been at it all day.  Or maybe someone objecting to the price of chum!!

I liked the pointer but it didnt look happy.  Collie was fabulous but too star struck.  Loved the scottie.


----------



## Peter7917 (11 March 2018)

Not watching. What's happened ?


----------



## confirmedponyaddict (11 March 2018)

Looked like some lunatic ran on to the carpet and then got tackled to the floor.


----------



## Evie91 (11 March 2018)

What a shame for the winner and reserve. Loved the way the whippet lady picked her dog up immediately. Id wanted he border to win but felt it looked unsettled tonight. Id chosen the Pointer and then the whippet.


----------



## Fools Motto (11 March 2018)

It looked like rugby. Eveyone running about, and falling on the floor - or should it be football?
I suspect animal rights people, who don't like showing. Sad end really.
Love the whippet. Gone all whippet broody!! The papion should have been reserve... but they were all well deserved finalists.


----------



## only_me (11 March 2018)

Not a fan of whipped but liked her coloring. Really liked the pointer! And the Newfie.

We tried to rewind the to see the pitch invader but didn&#8217;t, we did have a laugh wondering what would have happened had they gone at the Akita...


----------



## Equi (11 March 2018)

I only tuned in just as they were announced so missed the showing, but i liked the little whippet and adore the fast reaction of the handler "whipping" her away. God knows these days what people might do to a dog to prove how against animal abuse they are..hope theyre not too shaken up after it all.


----------



## {97702} (11 March 2018)

If you breed extreme examples of breeds that cannot perform the job expected of them, these idiots will flourish.... &#9785;&#65039;&#9785;&#65039;&#9785;&#65039;


----------



## CorvusCorax (11 March 2018)

Yes and no. Any utilisation of dogs for any purpose, particularly for hunting or in competition is frowned upon. 
Some groups believe no one should 'own' an animal at all/they're better dead than 'subjugated'.


----------



## PapaverFollis (11 March 2018)

Geez, I felt whippet woman's fear just watching that.


----------



## {97702} (11 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			Yes and no. Any utilisation of dogs for any purpose, particularly for hunting or in competition is frowned upon. 
Some groups believe no one should 'own' an animal at all/they're better dead than 'subjugated'.
		
Click to expand...

Quite true - if it was PETA or similar then there is no hope


----------



## Amymay (11 March 2018)

According to Crufts it was PETA


----------



## PapaverFollis (11 March 2018)

Looks like it was PETA. My eyes might fall out if I roll them any harder. As usual, not the way to make any kind of point valid or not.


----------



## only_me (11 March 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			Looks like it was PETA. My eyes might fall out if I roll them any harder. As usual, not the way to make any kind of point valid or not.
		
Click to expand...

Kinda wishing the Akita had a wee nibble on the arm, or the police/raf/army dogs were in attendance... 
PETA are all about the publicity, and did itself a disservice when they managed to scare the other dogs going against their policy.


----------



## ester (11 March 2018)

There would have been a pleasant irony in a peta protester being taken out in the crufts ring by working dog... 

I found it slightly amusing that she grabbed the dog much quicker than anyone grabbed the trophy! 

I picked the winner but did wonder if it would because the judge had them too as it often goes against them. The newfie was lovely but the concept of having to take a towel into the show ring is


----------



## MyBoyChe (12 March 2018)

BBC News website now saying it was PETA.  Im not sure what good they thought 2 guys leaping into the arena, being watched by however many thousand dog lovers were there, was going to do to their cause, but hey, each to their own.  I would think most of the audience thought they were barmy, stupid or most certainly misguided, none of the competitors will this morning be reconsidering their particular discipline and its doubtful the PETA ranks will have been swelled.  Yes, they have brought attention to themselves and their cause but not in a positive light!


----------



## ycbm (12 March 2018)

Going back to the showing itself, can anyone explain to a numpty how we have ended up with 'working dogs' and 'show dogs' which are so different that they are effectively different breeds?  

Why didn't the showing standards say that the dog should be able to do the job the breed was created for?


----------



## MurphysMinder (12 March 2018)

It was PETA,  idiots.  I've just seen footage taken from the audience and the first to rush in looked to be a female.  Fair play to the whippet owner for reacting so quickly,  I have seen still photos and the poor woman looks absolutely terrifed.     Equally quick reactions from KC officials to protect the trophies!   Shame the IPO qualified GSD wasn't in the ring


----------



## CorvusCorax (12 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Going back to the showing itself, can anyone explain to a numpty how we have ended up with 'working dogs' and 'show dogs' which are so different that they are effectively different breeds?  

Why didn't the showing standards say that the dog should be able to do the job the breed was created for?
		
Click to expand...

A variety of reasons.
A lot of the original uses of some breeds are at best, unpalatable to the general public and at worst, illegal. See bull breeds. Even hunting and shooting isn't most people's cup of tea and well, there goes the gundog and hound group. 

Tastes have changed. Trends have developed. Very few pet owners want a high-drive working dog. They want something to take for a leisurely walk and plop on the sofa afterwards. The fizz and pop is being bred out of most breeds. I WANT A WORKING TYPE xxx - oh dear, he's eaten my fitted kitchen/excavated my garden/kept the neighbours awake all night because he is bored. 
The vast majority of the public now want a dog that looks like what they want it to look like, but has no desire to do the job it was intended for - those are the dogs that make the revenue and those are the dogs that will continue to be bred from and instincts will be further diluted because the show world is only a tiny portion of the dogs out there - the vast majority of dogs are sold to pet homes.

Working a dog is fun, but it is hard. It costs a lot of time and money and the training involved is difficult to fit into modern lifestyles and public perceptions.
'You're MAKING a dog do THAT? That's cruel.'
'Sorry, I can't come to the party, I am standing in a muddy field all day getting shouted at' 
'Yeah, about your birthday present, I just spent 300 quid on x-rays'.

And no matter what it looks like, if you don't work the dog, you don't know if it is good or not, and if you breed it and it's not good, then you don't know if the conformation or character stands up to a day's work or not. Is it gun shy? Don't know, too late, it's been bred from. Are his grips chewy and insecure? Don't know, he's never seen a sleeve but I am sure it will be fine. Whoops.
Can she jump the 1m hurdle? Of course she can. I think. 
Swings and roundabouts.

Also, simply put, in these islands, there is no REQUIREMENT to work or health test your dog or DNA test it.
You register a pedigree dog and rock up to a show. It can have a hip score of 106, it can run away from a helper in a trial, and you can still breed from it and show it. No sanctions.
REQUIREMENTS would cause registrations, show entries, stud fees and puppy sales to plummet, ie, there would be no money in it.

In my own breed, right up until the early 80s, the top show dogs were also high level working dogs, in the show rings you would see black and gold dogs, grey dogs, black dogs, bi-colour dogs.
Money and fashion and human foibles and personal agendas caused the split we see today. 
Anyone with a GSD that isn't black and gold gets asked 'Is that a crossbreed? Is that a Belgian Shepherd? Are they supposed to be that colour?'
You can of course still see show dogs with working titles and working dogs with show grades.
There are still crazy people who show their dogs under a different system which prioritises health and working ability 
But things have definitely changed and it is just part and parcel of modern life.


----------



## ycbm (12 March 2018)

Thanks for taking the time to write that CC, I really learnt a lot.


----------



## Auslander (12 March 2018)

Evie91 said:



			On a different note- Id love to know if show dogs have a nice life outside of the ring- some of the breeds look so groomed and fluffed I cant imagine they are allowed a good walk through the countryside, running through muddy puddles and so on! Anyone care to update me?
		
Click to expand...

Can't speak for all show dogs, but my parents Welsh Springer Spaniel is only a show dog on show days. The rest of the time, he is a much loved family pet, who goes out walking in all weathers, and gets disgustingly muddy/sandy/dirty! He does have regular appointments with his "stylist" though.

He went to Crufts two years ago, and caused much amusement by sticking his tongue in the judges ear whilst being examined!


----------



## skinnydipper (12 March 2018)

deleted


----------



## CorvusCorax (12 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Thanks for taking the time to write that CC, I really learnt a lot.
		
Click to expand...

No problem, it's a favourite topic lol.

If anyone is interested, GB is hosting the Universal Sieger World Championships in 2019, this will see German Shepherds from around the world take part in a full IPO3 trial and then go into the show ring for a grade. The winning dogs will have an average number of points from their trial scores and show placing.
Should be a fantastic competition.

EDIT: I mean an IGP3 trial, the name is changing AGAIN


----------



## splashgirl45 (12 March 2018)

although i love whippets and the winner was a good specimen, i felt very uncomfortable watching her.  she seemed to be really shut down,the only time her tail wasnt under her belly was when she was moving and i didnt like the way she was handled, she was strung up tight when moving and she wasnt even allowed to relax when she had won, the handler was pushing her around all of the time, and didnt seem to give off any affection at all....i loved the temperament of the akita who looked like it was having fun and also liked the newfie, thought she deserved to be placed.....


----------



## Fellewell (12 March 2018)

I loved the Papillon, still showing his little socks off at the end of the day.

Militant vegans?? Where did they get the energy from ;-)


----------



## Snowfilly (12 March 2018)

Fellewell said:



			I loved the Papillon, still showing his little socks off at the end of the day.

Militant vegans?? Where did they get the energy from ;-)
		
Click to expand...

Don't know but my vegan friend was despairing over it. She loathes PETA with passion and feels groups like that really affect how vegans are regarded, and says she gets many more nasty comments when something like this has been in the news.


----------



## Annette4 (12 March 2018)

Snowfilly said:



			Don't know but my vegan friend was despairing over it. She loathes PETA with passion and feels groups like that really affect how vegans are regarded, and says she gets many more nasty comments when something like this has been in the news.
		
Click to expand...

Fellow very fed up vegan who can&#8217;t stand PETA. They are misoginsts, spread flat out lies about diary causing autism and destroy 95% of animals in their care. I don&#8217;t see how animal animal lover with half a brain would think scaring dogs and their handlers would get their point across. It&#8217;s yet another stunt which will lead to the vast majority of normal folk to assume those of us who happen to share the same choices with have the same ideals and I don&#8217;t half get fed up of explaining myself and why I can&#8217;t stand PETA either.


----------



## Fellewell (12 March 2018)

Snowfilly said:



			Don't know but my vegan friend was despairing over it. She loathes PETA with passion and feels groups like that really affect how vegans are regarded, and says she gets many more nasty comments when something like this has been in the news.
		
Click to expand...

Well I'm sure even PETA has a point when it comes to brachycephalic breeds. It's not always that people are being nasty to your friend regarding vegans. They may be genuinely concerned regarding levels of calcium, vit D, vit B12, zinc, omega-3 fatty acids and then there's the liver & thyroid function. Worth a thought.


----------



## deb_l222 (12 March 2018)

splashgirl45 said:



			although i love whippets and the winner was a good specimen, i felt very uncomfortable watching her.  she seemed to be really shut down,the only time her tail wasnt under her belly was when she was moving and i didnt like the way she was handled, she was strung up tight when moving and she wasnt even allowed to relax when she had won, the handler was pushing her around all of the time, and didnt seem to give off any affection at all....i loved the temperament of the akita who looked like it was having fun and also liked the newfie, thought she deserved to be placed.....
		
Click to expand...

I felt the same way about the pointer.  Every Pointer I've ever met (English or otherwise) has been a happy, waggy specimen.  I think the English ones can sometimes be a bit aloof but this one seemed very distant and didn't wag its tail once.

I'm not a massive fan of Akitas but at least it was happy, as was the Newfie, the Papillion and the Scottie.  The Collie looked a bit overwhelmed but not unhappy.


----------



## Pinkvboots (12 March 2018)

I loved the pointer noticed him very early on and the other 2 that stood out for me was the Papillon gorgeous little dog and I though the Akita was also lovely and seemed to love showing off in the ring.


----------



## MurphysMinder (12 March 2018)

You can see from this video,  posted by PETA,  why the whippet owner grabbed her dog and ran,  several people all running towards her.  Hopefully PETA have shot themselves in the foot with this stunt as they are getting a lot of adverse comments.

https://www.facebook.com/OfficialPETAUK/videos/vb.223357247712390/1649010801813687/?type=2&theater


----------



## meleeka (12 March 2018)

Claire Balding explained that these dogs have to be fit to be a good show dog. Is that actually true?


----------



## {97702} (12 March 2018)

meleeka said:



			Claire Balding explained that these dogs have to be fit to be a good show dog. Is that actually true?
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely not - the rubbish you hear from the commentators at Crufts is hilarious  I still remember one describing a fat greyhound with no muscle as fit as a fiddle, not an ounce of fat on him  

Dog show judges appear to exist in a parallel universe where things appear in a very different way.....


----------



## {97702} (12 March 2018)

MurphysMinder said:



			You can see from this video,  posted by PETA,  why the whippet owner grabbed her dog and ran,  several people all running towards her.  Hopefully PETA have shot themselves in the foot with this stunt as they are getting a lot of adverse comments.

https://www.facebook.com/OfficialPETAUK/videos/vb.223357247712390/1649010801813687/?type=2&theater

Click to expand...

Wow I did a quick scroll through the comments and couldnt find a single positive one?!


----------



## MotherOfChickens (12 March 2018)

the English setter was fat too  

what utter muppets PETA and their vegan friends are-apart from scaring the dogs its out of order performing this kind of stunt after the terrorist attacks UK and Europe have suffered in recent years.


----------



## meleeka (12 March 2018)

Lévrier;13740041 said:
			
		


			Absolutely not - the rubbish you hear from the commentators at Crufts is hilarious  I still remember one describing a fat greyhound with no muscle as fit as a fiddle, not an ounce of fat on him  

Dog show judges appear to exist in a parallel universe where things appear in a very different way..... 

Click to expand...

That makes sense, thats what I think about the Kennel Club.


----------



## CorvusCorax (12 March 2018)

meleeka said:



			Claire Balding explained that these dogs have to be fit to be a good show dog. Is that actually true?
		
Click to expand...

Yes and no...a guy I was training with yesterday gets up at 5am to run his dogs in the forest. 
I know people who have their dogs pull sleighs, I know one dog who was kept in Europe who climbed up the mountain and was brought down on the gondola so that the 'uphill' work wouldn't be undone 
However I also see (and smell ) dogs that clearly don't get out of the kennel much between shows. I think the people who love their dogs will keep them fit anyway, the people who see them as a vehicle for them to win shiny things, won't.
My dog is in super condition but I do let him put on a couple of kilos before I show him, in full working mode he would be considered a bit too pointy


----------



## Sandstone1 (12 March 2018)

Not all vegans are fans of Peta.    I dont agree with what they do at all.  However, they definitely have a point about some breeds of show dogs.   ie Gsds, bulldogs etc


----------



## 3Beasties (12 March 2018)

splashgirl45 said:



			although i love whippets and the winner was a good specimen, i felt very uncomfortable watching her.  she seemed to be really shut down,the only time her tail wasnt under her belly was when she was moving and i didnt like the way she was handled, she was strung up tight when moving and she wasnt even allowed to relax when she had won, the handler was pushing her around all of the time, and didnt seem to give off any affection at all....i loved the temperament of the akita who looked like it was having fun and also liked the newfie, thought she deserved to be placed.....
		
Click to expand...

Completely agree with all of that. I liked the whippet and thought she might win but she really did lack sparkle. The owner didn't praise her once even after they'd won!


----------



## MotherOfChickens (12 March 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			Not all vegans are fans of Peta.    I dont agree with what they do at all.  However, they definitely have a point about some breeds of show dogs.   ie Gsds, bulldogs etc
		
Click to expand...

I didn't say all vegans  but PETA are describing them as their friends. It was the Vegan Strike Group that pulled this stunt. They do have a point about some breeds-just not the breeds that won and were runner up lol. It was badly made and poorly executed but it has made PETA look stupid and thats no bad thing IMO.


----------



## Evie91 (12 March 2018)

Thanks to those who have updated me on the life of some show dogs, interesting reading. Suppose its the same for any discipline with animals involved - some people will consider the animal as a whole and other people see it as a commodity. 
Also interesting reading about how dogs are being bred.


----------



## Chinchilla (12 March 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			Not all vegans are fans of Peta.    I dont agree with what they do at all.  However, they definitely have a point about some breeds of show dogs.   ie Gsds, bulldogs etc
		
Click to expand...

No one's knocking vegans. Most are decent people. 
What people are slagging off (or should be) vega_nazis_! 
There's a big difference


----------



## CorvusCorax (12 March 2018)

Evie91 said:



			Thanks to those who have updated me on the life of some show dogs, interesting reading. Suppose it&#8217;s the same for any discipline with animals involved - some people will consider the animal as a whole and other people see it as a commodity. 
Also interesting reading about how dogs are being bred.
		
Click to expand...

From my own observations I think people should keep fewer dogs. As I always hear it as an excuse as to why people can't train/title/health test. Oh, I couldn't possibly, I don't have time and I couldn't afford to health test or work or keep fit THIS many dogs - OK then, keep fewer, breed fewer, invest in the breed and don't breed from the ones that don't come up to the mark then, perhaps?


----------



## Clodagh (12 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			From my own observations I think people should keep fewer dogs. As I always hear it as an excuse as to why people can't train/title/health test. Oh, I couldn't possibly, I don't have time and I couldn't afford to health test or work or keep fit THIS many dogs - OK then, keep fewer, breed fewer, invest in the breed and don't breed from the ones that don't come up to the mark then, perhaps?
		
Click to expand...

I look on preloved quite a bit, pure nosiness, and there is always a litter of labs for sale from a local town. They are now selling a four year old bitch, I assume she has had her litters or something has gone wrong. They sell maybe 5 or 6 litters a year, for pure finanical gain. Now I am no saint when it comes to money but wouldn't it be better to breed because you have a dog that will enhance the breed and you want a puppy, or you have been asked for a puppy by people?


----------



## RunToEarth (13 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Now I am no saint when it comes to money but wouldn't it be better to breed because you have a dog that will enhance the breed and you want a puppy, or you have been asked for a puppy by people?
		
Click to expand...

I agree - but I cant believe the fashion associated with dogs which Ive never really seen before. 

We had a litter last summer because I knew I had guaranteed six homes and through speaking to the sire he had list of people wanting pups. What I wasnt prepared for were the amount of people who were buying specifically for the colour of the dog (working retriever) with absolutely NO understanding of the breed or their characteristics - it makes finding suitable homes that bit more difficult when you have to sift through a sea of people willing to pay good money, offering a good loving home and often all the time in the world for a puppy but no understanding how a working bred dog can differ from its showing counterpart. I suppose it does go back to the point CC made earlier in relation to hunting and working breeds which is entirely accurate.


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			I look on preloved quite a bit, pure nosiness, and there is always a litter of labs for sale from a local town. They are now selling a four year old bitch, I assume she has had her litters or something has gone wrong. They sell maybe 5 or 6 litters a year, for pure finanical gain. Now I am no saint when it comes to money but wouldn't it be better to breed because you have a dog that will enhance the breed and you want a puppy, or you have been asked for a puppy by people?
		
Click to expand...

Why is it wrong to breed puppies people want to buy, for money?  We don't criticise big studs breeding horses for money.


----------



## Clodagh (14 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Why is it wrong to breed puppies people want to buy, for money?  We don't criticise big studs breeding horses for money.
		
Click to expand...

Because hopefully the big studs are breeding from mares and stallions that will bring something to the horse world. I have no problems with breeders making money, but it would be nice if the sole defining achievement of the mother was more than 'it has a uterus'.


----------



## MurphysMinder (14 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Because hopefully the big studs are breeding from mares and stallions that will bring something to the horse world. I have no problems with breeders making money, but it would be nice if the sole defining achievement of the mother was more than 'it has a uterus'.
		
Click to expand...

Agree.  I would consider the big studs to be equivalent to the better dog breeders who health test and always breed to improve.   Whereas the people who advertise pups  on preloved and the like are the canine equivalent to those who produce the scrappy foals that often end up at markets selling for £10.


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Because hopefully the big studs are breeding from mares and stallions that will bring something to the horse world. I have no problems with breeders making money, but it would be nice if the sole defining achievement of the mother was more than 'it has a uterus'.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't limit big studs to elite studs. There are plenty of studs running a couple of fields full of freebie mares to sell horses at a profit so that ordinary people who want an ordinary horse can buy one.  I see nothing wrong with that and I can't see any problem with responsibly breeding puppies for profit either.  We breed cows for a profit to eat, what's wrong with breeding an animal for a profit to give enjoyment to people?


----------



## Clodagh (14 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			I have no problems with breeders making money.
		
Click to expand...

For ycbm.


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

MurphysMinder said:



			Agree.  I would consider the big studs to be equivalent to the better dog breeders who health test and always breed to improve.   Whereas the people who advertise pups  on preloved and the like are the canine equivalent to those who produce the scrappy foals that often end up at markets selling for £10.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about the ones run like an illegal puppy farm. 

The studs I'm talking about, and I know of several, run a few of fields full of mares they have been given for free, and breed ordinary, healthy, horses for ordinary people to buy.  My appyx has nine waiting to be born this spring from his field full of mares (not mine, he's a gelding now).

What's wrong with that?


----------



## CorvusCorax (14 March 2018)

Labs are a breed, like many others, which suffer inherited genetic conditions like HD/ED and if you breed away at them blindly with no health tests you don't know what is lurking and the heartache, pain and misery you are passing down the generations.

Also if you breed 5 or 6 litters of unpapered dogs a year in the same geographic area and no one knows who is who, imagine what happens when the close relatives start breeding. Nice.

It's not responsible, it's profiteering off an animal's uterus.
And some people are making a shedload of untaxed pocket money that isn't being declared.

A mare also isn't capable of producing 5-10 offspring twice a year.


----------



## Clodagh (14 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			I'm not talking about the ones run like an illegal puppy farm. 

The studs I'm talking about, and I know of several, run a few of fields full of mares they have been given for free, and breed ordinary, healthy, horses for ordinary people to buy.  My appyx has nine waiting to be born this spring from his field full of mares (not mine, he's a gelding now).

What's wrong with that?
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully the mares are sound, and of decent temperament, ditto the stallion.


----------



## ester (14 March 2018)

There are very few genetically inheritable conditions in horses in comparison to those in dogs. Even more so if you take out the new world breeds/colours.


----------



## Chinchilla (14 March 2018)

ester said:



			There are very few genetically inheritable conditions in horses in comparison to those in dogs. Even more so if you take out the new world breeds/colours.
		
Click to expand...

why is that with what you refer to as the new world breeds/colours? I mean I agree, there's HYPP and PSSM I think, probably others too, but why are congenital disorders higher compared to European breeds?
(Sorry for hijacking thread.)


----------



## ester (14 March 2018)

yes I was thinking those two and lethal white overo too . 

I'm not entirely sure I was right to say number of conditions so much as number of horses carrying them due to selection for it due to breeding practices. It certainly means that for most horse breeders over here they don't have to worry about such inherited conditions being an issue, particularly if crossing breeds. I also think dogs have more cross over of genetic conditions between breeds.


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			Labs are a breed, like many others, which suffer inherited genetic conditions like HD/ED and if you breed away at them blindly with no health tests you don't know what is lurking and the heartache, pain and misery you are passing down the generations.

Also if you breed 5 or 6 litters of unpapered dogs a year in the same geographic area and no one knows who is who, imagine what happens when the close relatives start breeding. Nice.

It's not responsible, it's profiteering off an animal's uterus.
And some people are making a shedload of untaxed pocket money that isn't being declared.

A mare also isn't capable of producing 5-10 offspring twice a year.
		
Click to expand...

Tax evasion is irrelevant to the question of why people shouldn't make money out of breeding puppies people want to buy. 

Few people breed from their pet dogs, the unknowing inbreeding question is an issue but not a big one. 

Why does unpapered have to be synonymous with untested for genetic defects ? Let's assume for the sake of the argument that they are tested - what's wrong with making a profit from breeding puppies?

I don't see the difference between selling one offspring for profit and selling five.

What is the problem with profiting off a mares uterus? Don't stallion owners profit off a stallion's semen?  Don't all meat and dairy farmers profit off uterus/i (?) None of the animals is being asked to do anything unnatural. 

Just what is so wrong about breeding puppies for profit that isn't also wrong about breeding horses, birds, guinea pigs or any other pet?


----------



## CorvusCorax (14 March 2018)

Yes, if you mate a poodle with hip dysplasia with a lab with hip dysplasia you will likely get dysplastic crossbreeds. Or if you mate a dysplastic dog to a non dysplastic dog, it doesn't cancel out the risk.


----------



## ester (14 March 2018)

See you only have to hang around the pet facebook groups to see actually quite a lot of people breed from their untested pet dogs. 

Often they will state that the pups if purebred won't be registered and if you ask 9 times out of 10 it is because the parents haven't been tested or the bitch has already had too many litters. If they are a high risk breed I will often ask if the parents are health tested (particularly if you are asking £1300 for your mini daschunds :rolleyes3 only once has anyone ever said yes and included tested results. As a purchaser that just sounds like an expensive way to heartbreak to me and not fair on the pup either.


----------



## CorvusCorax (14 March 2018)

Tax evasion is irrelevant to the question of why people shouldn't make money out of breeding puppies people want to buy. 
BECAUSE IT'S ILLEGAL AS WELL AS UNETHICAL? IT'S A COMPANION ANIMAL, NOT A PRODUCT LIKE A TOASTER OR TELEVISION.

Few people breed from their pet dogs, the unknowing inbreeding question is an issue but not a big one. 
NOT MY EXPERIENCE...LOTS OF PEOPLE BREEDING PETS NEAR ME. 

Why does unpapered have to be synonymous with untested for genetic defects ? Let's assume for the sake of the argument that they are tested - what's wrong with making a profit from breeding puppies?
YOU CAN'T RECORD AN OFFICIAL HEALTH TEST ON A DOG WITH NO ID/PAPERS. PEOPLE WHO SELL PUPS FOR MAXIMUM PROFIT DON'T GO TO THE BOTHER OF SPENDING MONEY ON REGISTRATIONS OR HEALTH TESTS. 
MANY OF THESE BREEDING ANIMALS ARE TOO OLD OR HAVE EXCEEDED THEIR ALLOCATED LITTERS SO PUPS CANNOT BE REGISTERED.

I don't see the difference between selling one offspring for profit and selling five.
FOUR MORE IN RESCUE/NEEDING REHOMED?

What is the problem with profiting off a mares uterus? Don't stallion owners profit off a stallion's semen?  Don't all meat and dairy farmers profit off uterus/i (?) None of the animals is being asked to do anything unnatural. 
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT HORSES/COWS. I'M TALKING DOMESTIC PETS THAT LIVE IN A HOUSE WITH PEOPLE.

Just what is so wrong about breeding puppies for profit that isn't also wrong about breeding horses, birds, guinea pigs or any other pet? 
I DON'T AGREE WITH BREEDING ANY PET ANIMAL FOR PROFIT. THERE ARE THESE THINGS CALLED JOBS?


----------



## Amymay (14 March 2018)

Why does unpapered have to be synonymous with untested for genetic defects ? Let's assume for the sake of the argument that they are tested - what's wrong with making a profit from breeding puppies?
		
Click to expand...

You've only got to be a member of local fb pages to see the number of people breeding from their pets. Ask them if xyz tests have been done on mum and dad, nine times out of 10 the answer is no. It's irrelevant whether they're papered or not.  So breed your untested bull dog bitch and sell the pups for 1k each - what a smashing little earner. Let's do it again!  Likewise let's cross your bitch with another cutie and sell the pups for £500, just because it has a womb.

I have no problem breeding for profit, but a somoene doing it right won't be. They'll be doing it to improve or (at least) maintain the breed.

I think you're being a little disingenuous YCBM, which does you no favours.


----------



## paddy555 (14 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Few people breed from their pet dogs, the unknowing inbreeding question is an issue but not a big one. 

Why does unpapered have to be synonymous with untested for genetic defects ? Let's assume for the sake of the argument that they are tested - what's wrong with making a profit from breeding puppies?

I don't see the difference between selling one offspring for profit and selling five.



Just what is so wrong about breeding puppies for profit that isn't also wrong about breeding horses, birds, guinea pigs or any other pet?
		
Click to expand...

I don't see anything wrong with breeding pups for profit. However having spent  2 years finding a quality pup, from health tested parents and with a pedigree that has been checked I have seen an awful lot of rubbish both with low quality breeders and home breeders. More than you think breed from their pet dogs (untested) . The unknowing public buy them and many are lined up already for future health problems. That means the dogs are going to be the ones with health problems. They may well be bred from again and another generation of potential health problems will be lined up. 

In the past we bred healthy mongrels now we seem to breed pups with potential genetic and health problems. This doesn't seem to have happened so much in horses. 

I am not sure that many of these unpapered dogs will have been health tested. Their owners are breeding for profit. Are they going to pay the costs of vets fees and x rays etc? I think not. Look at pups advertised in your local paper and then ask how many are hip  and elbow tested and also tested for genetic defects in that breed. 

I see it as something like if someone had a couple of QH  mares in a field dolng nothing. There was a QH  stallion up the road. Small stud fee and they could sell the purebred QH foals for a lot of money Would you buy one? No doubt nice foals that would make nice calm riding horses. Neither of the parents have been 5 panel tested. Look at all the problems you could be buying!!  That situation equates to current dog breeding.


----------



## MurphysMinder (14 March 2018)

This post appeared yesterday elsewhere .  The owner of the pup tried to contact the "breeder" who immediately blocked them . &#128545;    

Just had an interesting conversation with a lady who had to have her 7 month old puppy pts with severe hip/elbow dysplasia, EPI and a degenerative bone disease affecting his spine. She gave me his registered name so I had a nose on My KC and came up with neither parent health tested (or any of their siblings) and the sire had produced 7 litters ranging from 12 - 15 in each litter and the dam produced 2 litters of 12 and 13.  Is it me or does that seem rather unusual to have so many large litters and no average ones?  They are all registered without affixes and I did wonder if they could be puppy farm puppies with dodgy registration.


----------



## CorvusCorax (14 March 2018)

Can nobody see the connection here? Breeding FOR PROFIT is what is ruining these breeds and what everyone here is complaining about.

Money leads to the ruination of everything.
Good breeders don't 'make' money.
The people who cover their costs or contribute to the gene pool and plough the money back into dogs aren't the ones who are causing the problems.
It's those who seek to line their own pockets and won't shell out on health tests and registrations and show entries and training and working their dogs to prove that they are of suitable quality to breed from.

Even if you want to breed your pet...health test it and cover your costs. Don't pimp your supposed mate who lives in your house to line your own pocket and don't breed it if the health isn't good.


----------



## CorvusCorax (14 March 2018)

Oh and those who register their dogs, test them and breed them despite poor results (because there are no requirements/sanctions) are just as bad.....


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			I DON'T AGREE WITH BREEDING ANY PET ANIMAL FOR PROFIT
		
Click to expand...

I get that, but so far you have not explained WHY.

Thank goodness not everyone agrees with you or there wouldn't be enough horses for the rest of us to buy and ride or rabbits and guinea pigs for kids to own.


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			Can nobody see the connection here? Breeding FOR PROFIT is what is ruining these breeds and what everyone here is complaining about.
		
Click to expand...

Breeding for showing prestige was what started off the problems, surely?


----------



## CorvusCorax (14 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			I get that, but so far you have not explained WHY.

Thank goodness not everyone agrees with you or there wouldn't be enough horses for the rest of us to buy and ride or rabbits and guinea pigs for kids to own.
		
Click to expand...

You're missing the 'for profit' bit. Are we short on horses or guinea pigs?


----------



## CorvusCorax (14 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Breeding for showing prestige was what started off the problems, surely?
		
Click to expand...

Showing prestige can = puppy sales/stud fees.
If someone breeds purely to make a profit and skips the expensive stuff like health tests etc then they are part of the problem. The only reason one would skip the health tests or breed from an animal with poor results, is to make money.

I repeat, the percentage of dogs in the UK actively taking part in shows is tiny.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (14 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			Can nobody see the connection here? Breeding FOR PROFIT is what is ruining these breeds and what everyone here is complaining about.

Money leads to the ruination of everything.
Good breeders don't 'make' money.
The people who cover their costs or contribute to the gene pool and plough the money back into dogs aren't the ones who are causing the problems.
It's those who seek to line their own pockets and won't shell out on health tests and registrations and show entries and training and working their dogs to prove that they are of suitable quality to breed from.

Even if you want to breed your pet...health test it and cover your costs. Don't pimp your supposed mate who lives in your house to line your own pocket and don't breed it if the health isn't good.
		
Click to expand...

Needs quoting as it's not being read. Or maybe not being understood.


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			Showing prestige can = puppy sales/stud fees.
If someone breeds purely to make a profit and skips the expensive stuff like health tests etc then they are part of the problem. The only reason one would skip the health tests or breed from an animal with poor results, is to make money.

I repeat, the percentage of dogs in the UK actively taking part in shows is tiny.
		
Click to expand...

Look, I'm not talking about skipping health tests or anything else on that front, or tax evasion, or in breeding.

I'm talking about your pure and simple belief that no pet of any species should ever be bred for profit. 

I don't understand why you feel that way, and you have so far said nothing that helps me understand why you feel that way.

Why do you feel no healthy animals should be bred and sold for a profit to loving homes who want to buy them?


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			You're missing the 'for profit' bit. Are we short on horses or guinea pigs?
		
Click to expand...

I don't understand your question. Both are bred and sold for profit.


----------



## ester (14 March 2018)

I'm not sure many horses are bed and sold for profit in their raw state though, that has come up several times over the years on this forum. 

Equally the same seems to happen with dogs, you don't make a profit unless you have an unusually large litter, or you have skimped on the health tests and health care of those dogs.


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

ester said:



			I'm not sure many horses are bed and sold for profit in their raw state though, that has come up several times over the years on this forum. 

Equally the same seems to happen with dogs, you don't make a profit unless you have an unusually large litter, or you have skimped on the health tests and health care of those dogs.
		
Click to expand...

That's not the point Ester. The point is the ideological rejection of breeding animals for profit. I don't understand it, but I'd like to.


----------



## CorvusCorax (14 March 2018)

Ycbm. I can't make you understand it, if you can't. It is the profit that corrupts. The 'making a bit extra'...then a bit more...then a bit more...then the ethics start to go out the window.
If you truly love your dog...then cover your costs or reinvest into the dog/breed/lines.
Don't use your pet to make money. Otherwise the dog is no better than any other household object or possession.
A commodity.

It's worth saying that nothing anyone says will change my mind and my deeply held convictions are based on my own experiences over many years. 
In the same way that nothing I say will change yours.


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

Well that might explain things if you are only talking about personal pets being bred from.  I would classify any bitch being bred from for profit as a working dog, not a pet. And obviously I see no problem with that.


----------



## oldie48 (14 March 2018)

Sorry not read the complete thread but don't buyers need to use a bit of common sense? Rogue breeders (puppy farms or not) will only make a profit and continue to breed if buyers continue to be stupid. There's loads of info on the net advising buyers what to check, it's not rocket science. Stanley is not KC registered and I know why and am completely satisfied. I saw both parents, picked Stan when he was 4 weeks old, visited weekly until he was ready to come home. BTs are a breed that is recognised to have few inherited problems and tbh I think that the working lines are much tougher than the show lines. This was Stan's mother's last litter and she has been spayed and is a lovely family pet. I hope my breeder, who is local to me, makes some money out of breeding or she might not continue. She breeds lovely dogs, takes care of the pups beautifully and loves to keep in touch with her owners. Stan was cheap in comparison to most breeds but it took as much effort to get him to 8 weeks safely than it would a much more expensive dog. Oh, and never has to advertise as her owners and dogs do that for her, I sold two the next litter her other bitch had by word of mouth.


----------



## ester (14 March 2018)

I think the trouble is that while removing all the stupid buyers would resolve the problem from the bottom up being able to do so seems unlikely to happen and in the meantime there are dogs suffering from completely preventable inheritable conditions.


----------



## CorvusCorax (14 March 2018)

Ok. Well that wouldn't be my classification of a 'working dog'...I can't see any pet dog breeders standing out here in the mud and sideways rain and gales today.
And I don't know anyone who breeds dogs 'well', who makes money out of it. And I know a lot of breeders.


----------



## ester (14 March 2018)

I wonder if that is what makes it a moot point, if it isn't possible to breed well, without welfare compromise, with health tested parents and make a profit? Ergo automatically anyone doing so to make a profit is doing something substandardly?


----------



## CorvusCorax (14 March 2018)

Profit should be the last reason to breed IMO. As if you haven't guessed


----------



## ester (14 March 2018)

well quite, but I'm just trying to work it out as ycbm is suggesting profit while doing everything right, if that isn't possible then profit automatically is a 'bad thing'.


----------



## Clodagh (14 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Well that might explain things if you are only talking about personal pets being bred from.  I would classify any bitch being bred from for profit as a working dog, not a pet. And obviously I see no problem with that.
		
Click to expand...

So all puppy farm bitches are working dogs?I normally have no problem debating with you but you are arguing for the sheer love of it. Head desk!


----------



## Cahill (14 March 2018)

working at making puppies


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			So all puppy farm bitches are working dogs?I normally have no problem debating with you but you are arguing for the sheer love of it. Head desk!
		
Click to expand...

What problem do you have with that definition? I'm talking about working for their living, not breed classification.

I am simply trying to understand why some people have an ideological objection to breeding any pet animal for profit. But by all means attribute your frustration at your own inability to provide any logical answer to that question to me if it makes you happier.


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

Cahill said:



			working at making puppies 

Click to expand...

What is the difference between that and a brood mare working at making a foal? 
  Many vets refer to it metabolically as work.  And why is it worse to work at making a puppy than it is to work at agility or retrieving birds?   I really, really do not understand and I think this is a gut reaction that no-one can logically explain. Can't we just agree to differ? Contrary to what I'm accused of, I do not argue a point just for the sake of it, I really was hoping for an explanation. Unfortunately when people can't offer one, they then tend to make accusations of 'arguing for the sake of it' rather than simply agreeing to differ. But that's the nature of forums


----------



## CorvusCorax (14 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			What problem do you have with that definition? I'm talking about working for their living, not breed classification.

I am simply trying to understand why some people have an ideological objection to breeding any pet animal for profit. But by all means attribute your frustration at your own inability to provide any logical answer to that question to me if it makes you happier.
		
Click to expand...

Puppy farm bitches 'working for their living'? Boke.
I go to work and I use a lot of my pay to provide for my dog, from whom I have never made a penny, nor do I ever intend to. He owes me nothing.
Please do not equate a poor puppy farmed, money machine with a prolapse and teats dragging the ground to happy, healthy, fit for purpose animals doing what they love.


----------



## Clodagh (14 March 2018)

The breeder who I got my best dog from does it and makes a profit on her litters. Each of her bitches has the maximum number of litters allowed that can be registered. She then rehomes them to pet or lightweight type working homes, spayed with a contract about 20 pages long, to people she knows. She has about 3 bitches on the go at a time and breeds maybe 2 litters a year. The more she breeds the more money she makes as most health tests are a one off cost.
However, before they are bred from they do have every health test available to a lab - and there are a lot. They have to win at least one field trial. They have to be of exceptional calmness and good natured 'pets' who also pick up four days a week all season. 
There is no problem, to my mind, with her making money. If you actually put her hours in, of training and travelling, of interviewing prospective buyers, of sitting each buyer down and explaining the contract it is probalby not an enormous amount. She will always take anything she bred back, at any age.
So, yes she makes money but she is also contributing to the labrador breed as a whole both working ability, temperament, soundness, trainability and health.

I have no problem with that - as I have said ad infinitum. To compare her to the people in the next village who spit out a litter every season, then sell the bitch - still unspayed - on preloved is laughable, and that, ycbm, is what you are condoning. And at least the people in the next village do give their breeding bitches a name and look at them now and then, so they are far better off than hundreds of puppy machines, that you say are entirely defensible. So as long as the puppy can be sold that is all that matters? I think not.


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			Puppy farm bitches 'working for their living'? Boke.
I go to work and I use a lot of my pay to provide for my dog, from whom I have never made a penny, nor do I ever intend to. He owes me nothing.
Please do not equate a poor puppy farmed, money machine with a prolapse and teats dragging the ground to happy, healthy, fit for purpose animals doing what they love.
		
Click to expand...

I don't. My argument, as I've tried to say time and time again, is nothing whatever to do with bad breeding practices.


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			The breeder who I got my best dog from does it and makes a profit on her litters. Each of her bitches has the maximum number of litters allowed that can be registered. She then rehomes them to pet or lightweight type working homes, spayed with a contract about 20 pages long, to people she knows. She has about 3 bitches on the go at a time and breeds maybe 2 litters a year. The more she breeds the more money she makes as most health tests are a one off cost.
However, before they are bred from they do have every health test available to a lab - and there are a lot. They have to win at least one field trial. They have to be of exceptional calmness and good natured 'pets' who also pick up four days a week all season. 
There is no problem, to my mind, with her making money. If you actually put her hours in, of training and travelling, of interviewing prospective buyers, of sitting each buyer down and explaining the contract it is probalby not an enormous amount. She will always take anything she bred back, at any age.
So, yes she makes money but she is also contributing to the labrador breed as a whole both working ability, temperament, soundness, trainability and health.

I have no problem with that - as I have said ad infinitum. To compare her to the people in the next village who spit out a litter every season, then sell the bitch - still unspayed - on preloved is laughable, and that, ycbm, is what you are condoning. And at least the people in the next village do give their breeding bitches a name and look at them now and then, so they are far better off than hundreds of puppy machines, that you say are entirely defensible. So as long as the puppy can be sold that is all that matters? I think not.
		
Click to expand...

No that is NOT what I am condoning. Have you actually read my posts?  You are agreeing with me!!!  What I am condoning is your first  description of the breeder of your pup making a profit.


----------



## {97702} (14 March 2018)

Blimey this has turned into a real 'head desk' thread hasn't it!  

The basic facts of life being what they are YCBM, it is exceptionally unlikely that ANY breeder who undertakes proper responsible breeding will make a profit from selling their puppies.  Ergo, those who do make a profit are taking short-cuts in some area - and that is totally unacceptable.  This is why I personally object to those who make money from breeding from their bitch.


----------



## Clodagh (14 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			No that is NOT what I am condoning. Have you actually read my posts?  You are agreeing with me!!!  What I am condoning is your first  description of the breeder of your pup making a profit.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, your post was if a field full of free mares can't produce workable foals why can't the same be true for dogs? (in summary). You said as long as they would be loved there was no harm in their being bred, you said pets could be put in whelp and therefore become 'working dogs'. Not the same thing at all.


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

Lévrier;13741397 said:
			
		


			Blimey this has turned into a real 'head desk' thread hasn't it!  

The basic facts of life being what they are YCBM, it is exceptionally unlikely that ANY breeder who undertakes proper responsible breeding will make a profit from selling their puppies.  Ergo, those who do make a profit are taking short-cuts in some area - and that is totally unacceptable.  This is why I personally object to those who make money from breeding from their bitch.
		
Click to expand...


Clodagh's pup's breeder makes a profit.

And  I am in the middle of hill sheep farming country. Round here, people breed unregistered working border collies, strong sound dogs, for profit.

I think that's fine. Other people don't. No problem, let's agree to differ


----------



## Clodagh (14 March 2018)

Yes I don't agree that breeders don't make a profit, or that it is morally wrong. Your definition of a breeder is different to mine, ycbm. Let'e leave it at that, as you say.


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Yes, your post was if a field full of free mares can produce workable foals why can't the same be true for dogs?
		
Click to expand...


No it wasn't!   That would be a completely stupid thing to have said.

What I said was  'if it's  OK to breed foals for profit why isn't it OK to breed pups for profit?'.

And we agree that it is ok to breed for profit so I hope we can stop at that, since we do agree.


----------



## {97702} (14 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Clodagh's pup's breeder makes a profit.

And  I am in the middle of hill sheep farming country. Round here, people breed unregistered working border collies, strong sound dogs, for profit.

I think that's fine. Other people don't. No problem, let's agree to differ 

Click to expand...

So, they cut corners - no health testing, no registration, probably not a decent quality of food.  I said RESPONSIBLE breeders don't make a profit....


----------



## ycbm (14 March 2018)

Lévrier;13741417 said:
			
		


			So, they cut corners - no health testing, no registration, probably not a decent quality of food.  I said RESPONSIBLE breeders don't make a profit....
		
Click to expand...


Wow, judgmental assumptions or what!?

No, they don't cut corners and yes they are responsible breeders.  Some of these dogs are by or from very high class trials dogs. And they are all lovely strong puppies who lead active and long working lives on local farms.

Kennel Club members aren't the only people who can breed good healthy dogs  responsibly!


----------



## {97702} (14 March 2018)

Which illustrates how little you know about the whole matter - Kennel Club members just pay a fee to a club, it doesnt make them better or more qualified than anyone? Hence the ridiculous scheme that is the Accredited Breeder scheme 

I really couldnt care less if you think Im being judgemental - it is a fact that someone who is a responsible breeder will ensure that they only breed from health tested parents of the best lines, regardless of whether they are breeding dogs, horses or anything else


----------



## PucciNPoni (14 March 2018)

blackcob said:



			Poodle yawn.
		
Click to expand...

lol wasn't YAWN for me.  The G3 dog was my miniature's breeder (same dog who was RBIS last year so was pretty pleased for her) and the G4 was my brother's littermate.  Over the moon


----------



## KittenInTheTree (14 March 2018)

PucciNPoni said:



			lol wasn't YAWN for me.  The G3 dog was my miniature's breeder (same dog who was RBIS last year so was pretty pleased for her) and the G4 was my brother's littermate.  Over the moon 

Click to expand...

I liked the poodles


----------



## CorvusCorax (14 March 2018)

I must admit I always think of PnP's poodles when people ask if primped and preened show dogs get to be 'normal'!


----------



## blackcob (14 March 2018)

Apologies PnP - no judgment on the individual dogs, just that there were all three of them!


----------



## paddy555 (14 March 2018)

i really hope the lady who bred my pup made a profit. From the amount of work she put in she certainly deserved to. She did everything correctly so she won't have made as much as someone who didn't do health checks, good food and all the rest of it but I hope she came out of it OK. If she didn't then she is almost subsidising me having a dog. 

A litter of say 8 pups is £8000. Surely there is profit to be  made even if it is all done correctly. If those are quality, tested pups what is wrong with profit? 
It is not profit that is the problem but people breeding from  poor quality animals and that applies to horses as well. Then there is the public who don't carry out the necessary checks to get as healthy a dog as possible.


----------



## ester (14 March 2018)

Clodagh, if your breeder paid herself a decent wage for the hours she puts into producing each pup do you think she would still turn a profit?
I kind of think the same about the farm dogs, those farmers have created pups worth money because they have spent the time working and trialling the dogs used to produce them so they are creating stock people will pay for because of what they can do. 

I've given it quite a lot of thought and I think I conclude it's fine to make a profit it you manage to, to breed with the intention of good profit margins, not so much.


----------



## CorvusCorax (14 March 2018)

£1000 a pup? Ouch.
I can see why some people are making a profit selling pet dogs.


----------



## RunToEarth (14 March 2018)

Lévrier;13741417 said:
			
		


			So, they cut corners - no health testing, no registration, probably not a decent quality of food.  I said RESPONSIBLE breeders don't make a profit....
		
Click to expand...

Im not a breeder but I did have a litter of pups from my bitch last year. The health testing was around £500, the stud fee slightly more than that. KC reg was around £20per pup, my insurance premium was fairly negligible, their food worked out about £80 for 30kg grain free premium food, they were flead and wormed and 1st vaccs, chipped etc - I went by the book and I didnt cut any corners that I know of. I let them go at 10weeks, I sold 4 of them under MV to friends and family, two at MV (that I could have sold several times over) and kept one for myself and I did make a profit. Did I do something wrong? Genuinely interested where my corners were cut?


----------



## Clodagh (14 March 2018)

ester said:



			Clodagh, if your breeder paid herself a decent wage for the hours she puts into producing each pup do you think she would still turn a profit?
I kind of think the same about the farm dogs, those farmers have created pups worth money because they have spent the time working and trialling the dogs used to produce them so they are creating stock people will pay for because of what they can do. 

I've given it quite a lot of thought and I think I conclude it's fine to make a profit it you manage to, to breed with the intention of good profit margins, not so much.
		
Click to expand...

Does she make a profit in real terms? Maybe not. But she is retired, training and competing her dogs is what she does anyway.


----------



## CorvusCorax (14 March 2018)

So...she reinvests in the dogs, then? 
I don't know why anyone would want to fund the purchase of (for example) cars, foreign holidays, conservatories or household goods, off the back of a pet animal. Maybe it's just me!


----------



## RunToEarth (14 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			So...she reinvests in the dogs, then? 
I don't know why anyone would want to fund the purchase of (for example) cars, foreign holidays, conservatories or household goods, off the back of a pet animal. Maybe it's just me!
		
Click to expand...

My dogs get fed (what I consider to be) a very high quality food, they have their exercise and their training, their insurance, their annual vaccs etc regardless - so regardless of whether I offset my profit from breeding on their food and their training, it is still a profit, so I do get where YCBM is going with her argument. Im reinvesting in my dogs but then they are my family and my hobby and my life and Id be spending X amount on them regardless.


----------



## CorvusCorax (14 March 2018)

Then I think we're all mostly on the same page


----------



## ihatework (15 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			£1000 a pup? Ouch.
I can see why some people are making a profit selling pet dogs.
		
Click to expand...

I don&#8217;t see why an ethically bred dog that is destined to be a lifelong pet or working dog for someone shouldn&#8217;t be worth £1000? And yes, if the litter is big enough or it&#8217;s a second/third litter and the health testing has been done previously there would be some kind of &#8216;profit&#8217; to be made. It&#8217;s up to the breeders to not cut corners and to Vet purchasers but it&#8217;s also up to buyers to do their homework and buy from responsible breeders.

Of course there will be the unscrupulous, there is in all walks of life, and few people would support backyard breeding purely for profit.

I do get your unease at breeding pedigree for profit, but at the end of the day if the breeds are to survive in their healthiest possible state surely this is more likely to happen if there is potential for financial gain.


----------



## MurphysMinder (15 March 2018)

£1000 is the top end of pricing for a GSD pup.   I could find a pup with  really good lines ,  with full health test and working/show qualifications for less than that.  However I don't know the breeding of Paddy555's pup and he may well be from one of the top kennels.  Conversely there is a very dodgy kennel,  albeit with a very impressive website,  which charges £3000 a pup !


----------



## meleeka (15 March 2018)

I dont agree with bitches having one litter after another anymore than Id agree with horses doing the same. I know a couple of people that do this with their pet dog just because the puppies can sell for over a thousand each.  They dont seem to consider the risks to their much loved pet at all, just see it as an easy way to make money.


----------



## ycbm (15 March 2018)

meleeka said:



			I dont agree with bitches having one litter after another anymore than Id agree with horses doing the same. I know a couple of people that do this with their pet dog just because the puppies can sell for over a thousand each.  They dont seem to consider the risks to their much loved pet at all, just see it as an easy way to make money.
		
Click to expand...

If it is healthy and happy, what's wrong with it doing something which is entirely natural?  (I'm happy to have it explained to me that a bitch that breeds every year cannot be happy or healthy, and why, if that's the case).

Can you explain why you think it is OK for a mare to be ridden for year after year, some at very strenuous sports, but not for it to stand in a field making a foal?  If you gave a mare a choice I think we can be pretty sure she'd choose the foals. 

Also, where do you think horses to buy would come from if people did not run brood mares whose job is to produce a foal most years?  Or are you suggesting  that horses should go back to being a sport only for the rich?


----------



## meleeka (15 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Thats a whole other can of worms! I dont believe horses should be available cheaply to some of the people that have them and clearly cant even  afford their care. If they couldnt buy them for a few quid it might help. 

Ive had children and although its perfectly natural, I know the effect its had on my body. I think Id like to preserve my pet as much as possible so that she lives a long and healthy life rather than breed from her so I can afford to go on holiday next year.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## ycbm (15 March 2018)

Again, I am not talking about breeding herds full of wormy scrubby coloured cobs or people who can't afford them owning horses. Those are different issues than the question of why a mare should not produce a foal a year rather than compete at dressage, for example. I'm not sure human childbirth compares. The mare doesn't have to  do the housework, go back to work,  or look after the other kids and in most animals labour seems a lot less onerous than in women.


----------



## Clodagh (15 March 2018)

Bitches should not produce a litter every season. The Kennel Club, who care about very little except money, will not register back to back litters. (I am pretty sure, but stand ready to be corrected).


----------



## meleeka (15 March 2018)

The KC states Licensed breeders must: Not mate a bitch less than 12 months old. Not whelp more than four litters from a bitch. Not whelp two litters within a 12 month period from the same bitch. Which is very different to what the person I know whos breeding from her pet is doing. That just has one litter after another and will do until its too old. 

The KC obviously believe that constantly reproducing can be detrimental to health or presumably they wouldnt have these rules?


----------



## CorvusCorax (15 March 2018)

I could get an ethically bred show or working pup from health tested, well performing parents for less than £1000 or the equivalent in euro elsewhere, but having slept on it I do appreciate there may be regional differences!!
If people are happy to pay that sort of money and upwards, then I suppose people will charge, even though it may make me a little uneasy.

I know of females who get bred year on year and (yuck) back to back (in my own breed and others, females can have two seasons in a year) and they don't look particularly happy to me. I personally find it abhorrent. Please don't ask me to explain myself lol, I can't put into someone else's head what I can see with my own eyes.


----------



## BBP (15 March 2018)

From my recent experiences looking for a puppy to be a family pet, the designer mongrel and unregistered dog market are pushing up the prices. I saw designer mongrels going for £800 with no health testing and border collies from untested unregistered parents going for £500-750. I followed up on these ads and it seems like none have problems selling their puppies at these prices. So its understandable to me that those breeders who carefully select lines for optimum health and who health check their dogs, who raise them on good diets and socialise them well, would think they deserve a better return than the I have two nice dogs who could make pretty  babies together breeders.

I made a decision when buying my dog that I did not want to reward breeders who put no thought into health testing. One breeder who owned both the notch and dog told me that temperament was the most important thing, to which I replied that temperament is very important to me, but I wanted to minimise the risks of my lovely tempered dog suffering from hip dysplasia, eye issues or epileptic fits and so I would not be buying her puppy. Those same 9 puppies have all sold for £500 each. The two parent dogs came from an agent who sources border collie puppies from welsh farms. There is little traceability on these dogs and for all I know the two dogs are closely related.

So whilst my dog cost more than I had expected to spend, I know that he is from lines with no known history of epilepsy, they are all DNA clear of genetic conditions, hip scored, eye tested. The breeder breeds for the love of it, she only has 2 bitches who are part of her family and the bitch will have no more than 3 litters in her life. She only had 3 puppies in her last litter. To sell 3 good quality puppies at £500 each, vaccinated and microchipped and kept for 10 weeks does not generate much profit or money to reinvest in the dogs, so she charged a higher price. I made a decision to pay it to support a breeder who is doing things the way I would want them done. Fortunately for me, I have ended up with a dogs whos temperament is incredible, and if I had known just how fantastic a temperament he had I would have paid more (if I had the money!!)


----------



## {97702} (15 March 2018)

RTE - see esters point, you havent factored in your time!


----------



## ihatework (15 March 2018)

BBP said:



			From my recent experiences looking for a puppy to be a family pet, the designer mongrel and unregistered dog market are pushing up the prices. I saw designer mongrels going for £800 with no health testing and border collies from untested unregistered parents going for £500-750. I followed up on these ads and it seems like none have problems selling their puppies at these prices. So it&#8217;s understandable to me that those breeders who carefully select lines for optimum health and who health check their dogs, who raise them on good diets and socialise them well, would think they deserve a better return than the &#8216;I have two nice dogs who could make pretty  babies together&#8217; breeders.

I made a decision when buying my dog that I did not want to reward breeders who put no thought into health testing. One breeder who owned both the notch and dog told me that temperament was the most important thing, to which I replied that temperament is very important to me, but I wanted to minimise the risks of my lovely tempered dog suffering from hip dysplasia, eye issues or epileptic fits and so I would not be buying her puppy. Those same 9 puppies have all sold for £500 each. The two parent dogs came from an &#8216;agent&#8217; who &#8216;sources&#8217; border collie puppies from welsh farms. There is little traceability on these dogs and for all I know the two dogs are closely related.

So whilst my dog cost more than I had expected to spend, I know that he is from lines with no known history of epilepsy, they are all DNA clear of genetic conditions, hip scored, eye tested. The breeder breeds for the love of it, she only has 2 bitches who are part of her family and the bitch will have no more than 3 litters in her life. She only had 3 puppies in her last litter. To sell 3 good quality puppies at £500 each, vaccinated and microchipped and kept for 10 weeks does not generate much profit or money to reinvest in the dogs, so she charged a higher price. I made a decision to pay it to support a breeder who is doing things the way I would want them done. Fortunately for me, I have ended up with a dogs who&#8217;s temperament is incredible, and if I had known just how fantastic a temperament he had I would have paid more (if I had the money!!)
		
Click to expand...

Well said & this is exactly how it should be in a perfect world


----------



## paddy555 (15 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			I could get an ethically bred show or working pup from health tested, well performing parents for less than £1000 or the equivalent in euro elsewhere, but having slept on it I do appreciate there may be regional differences!!
If people are happy to pay that sort of money and upwards, then I suppose people will charge, even though it may make me a little uneasy.

I know of females who get bred year on year and (yuck) back to back (in my own breed and others, females can have two seasons in a year) and they don't look particularly happy to me. I personally find it abhorrent. Please don't ask me to explain myself lol, I can't put into someone else's head what I can see with my own eyes.
		
Click to expand...

I expect you probably could get a shepherd pup cheaper, probably so could MM however both of you obviously have considerable background knowledge, know where to go and the right people. For amateurs like me we simply don't have the connections.

Most GSD pups I found (and I looked for a very long time) were around £850 -£1100. I think I did find the £3000 one!  I actually paid £950 and it has been worth it so far. My pup's litter (a private breeder not a kennel) could have been sold 3 or 4 times over so haggling on price was not an option. Her next litter I think is already spoken for but I doubt she will be bred for another year. I can't speak for the rest of the UK but in S England there is a high demand for quality pups so people have no problem selling at £1000. Many other breeds seem equally expensive. 

I was amazed at  my journey through the relatively simple task of find a GSD pup. I had no idea breeders bred back to back registering only half of their litters, bred from very young bitches, bred from a seriously lame stud dog. No idea how unscrupulous some were, had no idea how they bred from stock with previous litters with high scores. Had no idea they would breed from their own stock with high scores. I very nearly gave up and walked away as I didn't trust anyone in the end.


----------



## KittenInTheTree (15 March 2018)

I know I'll regret asking this, but what's considered to be a fair price for a standard poodle these days? Let's pretend that I'm asking for a friend and not wavering in my determination never to own another dog after my current chap goes.


----------



## KittenInTheTree (17 March 2018)

KittenInTheTree said:



			I know I'll regret asking this, but what's considered to be a fair price for a standard poodle these days? Let's pretend that I'm asking for a friend and not wavering in my determination never to own another dog after my current chap goes.
		
Click to expand...

Two days with no replies, gosh, you're an uninformative bunch at times! Not to worry, I had a good nosy around and found the answer for myself - about £700 to £950, so essentially equal to one winter's worth of hay or haylage. Hmm. I actually reckon that's okay, all things considered. I'm going to see about opening an ISA to save up for one as my next dog. Hopefully it will be at least five years before I really need to start looking for a breeder. Still can't believe that my beloved collie will be seven this summer, where does the time go? NB I shan't have another collie after him because I'd forever be comparing them, which wouldn't be fair on the future dog or healthy for me.


----------



## Moobli (19 March 2018)

paddy555 said:



			i really hope the lady who bred my pup made a profit. From the amount of work she put in she certainly deserved to. She did everything correctly so she won't have made as much as someone who didn't do health checks, good food and all the rest of it but I hope she came out of it OK. If she didn't then she is almost subsidising me having a dog. 

A litter of say 8 pups is £8000. Surely there is profit to be  made even if it is all done correctly. If those are quality, tested pups what is wrong with profit? 
It is not profit that is the problem but people breeding from  poor quality animals and that applies to horses as well. Then there is the public who don't carry out the necessary checks to get as healthy a dog as possible.
		
Click to expand...

This reflects most closely how I feel about dog breeding.  I have no problem at all with breeders making a profit on their litters if they are well bred (through health testing, sporting achievements, working ability etc), the pups are well reared (quality food, regular worming, start of the socialisation process for pets and to a lesser extent working dogs) and the breeder genuinely cares where their pups go and offer back up for life if needed.  I do not condone breeders who churn out litter after litter PURELY for profit with no health testing done, no regard for where pups end up etc.


----------

