# Has the discipline of horse management gone out the window in modern times???



## patch1234 (13 November 2012)

Around 30/40 years ago horse owners were incredibly more disciplined in their own management of horses.  I dont mean farm horses or similar but riding horses.

For example my day was as follows:

6.00 - arrive at yard check all horses are well.

6.15 - 6.30am feed all horses and put up small net.

7.00 remove feed buckets, change rugs if necessary, skip out.

8.00 lightly groom those to be ridden

8.30 - 10.30 tack up and ride

10.30 full groom including strapping if necessary

12.00 tack cleaning

1.00 2nd feed and small net

Lunch

2.00 remove feed buckets skip out

3.00 ride those not ridden in the morning then groom

5.30 skip out 3rd feed and large hay net, change rugs, set fair

8.30 (if on evening check) check horses fill nets check all is well, skip out if necessary.

We always had to look smart, hair back no jewellery, clean clothes.

Our horses were always groomed and tidy, I hardly ever heard of colic, laminitis or back problems.

If we could turn out we did, more so in summer, but they always came in and were tidied up.

Mud fever was very rarely heard of as we kept the legs clean and dry.

Today I know people who turn up to yard at about 10am, throw them out in all weathers even if its a gale so they dont have to do the stables.

Others I know keep out 24/7 horses are covered in mud fever, rain scald.

I know this is not all horse owners but there is definately a lack of discipline these days.  I know people work but there is still no exscuse for not putting the extra time into your horses.


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## MotherOfChickens (13 November 2012)

largely yes but the equestrian industry has totally changed, better roll with it 

I think that grooms, rather than owners did the routine above though.


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## FfionWinnie (13 November 2012)

We had a groom, Perkins, and Mummy wouldn't allow us to do any menial tasks such as you describe.


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## FoxTrotx (13 November 2012)

I'd love nothing more than to spend my entire day at the yard (I do actually on any days off I get) but the small matter of work tends to get in the way


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## merry mischief (13 November 2012)

When did you go to work to pay for your horse?

MM


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## Ditchjumper2 (13 November 2012)

I so remember all this. Taking the horses for a 30 minute trot round the roads the day before hunting as a rest day! No kissing spines then either!! Washing the horses legs was a real no, no. All heels were dried upon return from work and were kept well greased with a mixture of vaseline and protocon.


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## Elsbells (13 November 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			We had a groom, Perkins, and Mummy wouldn't allow us to do any menial tasks such as you describe.
		
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Ahhhh, dear old Perkins.


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## Toffee44 (13 November 2012)

Lol^^

I used to ride before school at 6am either round thr gallops or in the school. Haven't done that for a decade.


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## carthorse (13 November 2012)

Fitting 8 hours at work plus travelling time is going to be difficult with that regime. Its check,fill water,feed, put hay in field ,change rugs and turnout. Go to work. After work bring in check, pick out feet


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## Slightlyconfused (13 November 2012)

What's wrong with chucking horses out in all weather? 
I don't always make sure mine are groomed to perfection when I ride as I don't have the time, if bridle and saddle/girth area are clean and mud free off I go. 
My horses are rugged well, feed well( to their own dietary needs) and exercised. Does it matter if they don't have every bit of mud taken off and shine everyday? No it doesn't a lot of us don't really have the time to do the above.


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## carthorse (13 November 2012)

Quick ride, feed, muckout, hay and water.Rugs and home to cook dinner.lol


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## patch1234 (13 November 2012)

merry mischief said:



			When did you go to work to pay for your horse?

MM
		
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That was my business at that time.  However when I worked in the city I still went to yard at 6.00 did the usual went to work came back and groomed.  It just wasnt done to have a horse not looking well presented and as I was very proud of my horses I always did what was necessary.


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## MotherOfChickens (13 November 2012)

there may have been no kissing spines diagnosis then but there were still horses sent to the knackers for behavioural problems-probably caused by pain.

there were good and bad things about ye olden days, just as there are good and bad things about the present.


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2012)

Nothing wrong with keeping horses out, many cope just fine out without rainscald / mud fever / melting in the rain / disintegrating in a bit of a breeze


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## FfionWinnie (13 November 2012)

Elsbells said:



			Ahhhh, dear old Perkins.

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He was a dear dear old man. Never let us girls lift a finger despite him only having one leg and a stoop.  I will never forget the trip trap of him crossing the bridge to the stables every morn.


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## georgiaziggy (13 November 2012)

How about back in the day where ponies lived on mountains in wales in all weathers without a rug on


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## patch1234 (13 November 2012)

georgiaziggy said:



			How about back in the day where ponies lived on mountains in wales in all weathers without a rug on 

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They still do as do Exmoors, Darmoors ect those are not what im talking about.


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## Slightly Foxed (13 November 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			We had a groom, Perkins, and Mummy wouldn't allow us to do any menial tasks such as you describe.
		
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Hello, so glad you remember me Miss, 'twas a pleasure working for you.


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## weebarney (13 November 2012)

Sounds like pony club camp! Seriously how many horse owners had time to pretend they were at pony club every day?


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## Littlelegs (13 November 2012)

Pmsl at fw! I too hate menial tasks, & can't be bothered putting in the extra time, so I'm one of those awful people who leaves their rainscalded & mud fevered horses out 24/7 mostly. And I'm so lazy that when they are in overnight, I turn out at 7am whatever the weather so I have even less to do in the stable. And I don't bother with the feed, cba. It's just so much easier to trudge through mud to the field in the pitch black, carrying half a bale of hay, & bring in, check over, do feet, remove rug, brush over, replace rug, turn back out, fish leaves from cold water trough etc. Far easier than skipping out & throwing a net in!


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## Slightlyconfused (13 November 2012)

Wow, the rest of us are all bad, bad horses owner who take no pride in our horses then. 

If they are happy, healthy and looked after does it matter if we don't spend hours grooming to perfection? ( and since idiot pony is white he spends most of the winter cream throughout winter)


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## cptrayes (13 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			That was my business at that time.  However when I worked in the city I still went to yard at 6.00 did the usual went to work came back and groomed.  It just wasnt done to have a horse not looking well presented and as I was very proud of my horses I always did what was necessary.
		
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Your definition of necessary is very different from mine 

I don't find it "necessary" to scrape the mud off bits of my horses that won't be touched by tack, especially if  after riding I am about to chuck them back out in a gale with their modern breathable duvet filled rugs on. 

Personally I'd rather a horse was out getting freedom and fresh air in a field during the day in winter than spotless, and what's more I think the horse would too. 

Times have certainly changed, and not entirely for the worse, I think.


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## dafthoss (13 November 2012)

JFTD said:



			Nothing wrong with keeping horses out, many cope just fine out without rainscald / mud fever / melting in the rain / disintegrating in a bit of a breeze 

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What you mean horses dont melt in the rain?  or blow away in the wind


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## Slightly Foxed (13 November 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			He was a dear dear old man. Never let us girls lift a finger despite him only having one leg and a stoop.  I will never forget the trip trap of him crossing the bridge to the stables every morn.
		
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'ere, who told you I only had one leg? Twas just was the way my breeches was! And I paid a lot of money for that stoop I'll 'ave you know!


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## Starbucks (13 November 2012)

What kind of horses were you keeping?


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## Slightly Foxed (13 November 2012)

Always coped with the limp and the stop, 'twas a bit of a bind herding them goats over the bridge every day.


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2012)

dafthoss said:



			What you mean horses dont melt in the rain?  or blow away in the wind 

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Apparently not   Even if you don't wrap them up in cotton wool, three layers of rugs and chain them to the ground, apparently


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## Littlelegs (13 November 2012)

Ignore previous post, I'm with you all the way. Infact I'm building a stable for my daughter Jill to keep her two ponies in, as a xmas present. Currently she keeps her new jumping pony at the riding school.


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## Lolo (13 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			They still do as do Exmoors, Darmoors ect those are not what im talking about.
		
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Do you mean more like TBs and similar type comp horses?

(do I begin to tell about how both Reg and Bee- full TBs, both in full competition work this summer though at different levels, and Bee would still be if it weren't for an injury- are out 24/7, and the hunter is out for most of the time as well? Or just not bother?)


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## georgiaziggy (13 November 2012)

When mine used to live out I didnt even carry the haynets to the field


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## armchair_rider (13 November 2012)

I would assume it's just a change in work and lifestyle. Far more horse owners who also have full time jobs, more peopel keeping horses at livery with attendant travel time, yards with more horses per groom. Plus some things like strapping have gone out of fashion


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## Slightly Foxed (13 November 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Ignore previous post, I'm with you all the way. Infact I'm building a stable for my daughter Jill to keep her two ponies in, as a xmas present. Currently she keeps her new jumping pony at the riding school.
		
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It's Perkins here, it'd be a pleasure to build the stable foe Jill and nurture her jumping ponies, I'm only 97 and lots of years in me yet!


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## Goldenstar (13 November 2012)

OP's post is boardly how my horses live in winter.


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## flirtygerty (13 November 2012)

Do I sense a 5 letter word begining with T coming up


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2012)

Slightly Foxed said:



			It's Perkins here, it'd be a pleasure to build the stable foe Jill and nurture her jumping ponies, I'm only 97 and lots of years in me yet!
		
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Could you build me an extension on my hay barn while you're at it?  Cheers


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## JFTDWS (13 November 2012)

flirtygerty said:



			Do I sense a 5 letter word begining with T coming up
		
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Tango?  I'll have one if you're offering...


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## TrasaM (13 November 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			He was a dear dear old man. Never let us girls lift a finger despite him only having one leg and a stoop.  I will never forget the trip trap of him crossing the bridge to the stables every morn.
		
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Did he have a very gruff voice and a little beard? Somehow he sounds familiar


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## MerrySherryRider (13 November 2012)

Ah, the good old days, courtesy of google.


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## TrasaM (13 November 2012)

georgiaziggy said:



			When mine used to live out I didnt even carry the haynets to the field 








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Omg..is that the rare lesser spotted duvet horse!!


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## Goldenstar (13 November 2012)

TrasaM said:



			Did he have a very gruff voice and a little beard? Somehow he sounds familiar 

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Goat goat FW has a goat to do her horses .


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## flirtygerty (13 November 2012)

JFTD said:



			Tango?  I'll have one if you're offering... 

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Consider yourself Tango'd and it's not even the weekend


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## Nicnac (13 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			That was my business at that time.  However when I worked in the city I still went to yard at 6.00 did the usual went to work came back and groomed.  It just wasnt done to have a horse not looking well presented and as I was very proud of my horses I always did what was necessary.
		
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Blimmin' heck - you must have had a short commute.  When I worked in the city, I was on the 6.23 train every morning so horses were chucked out at 5.30am rain or shine if they were in - hay only if there was snow on the ground and brought in whenever. They were fine!


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## Pearlsasinger (13 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			That was my business at that time.  However when I worked in the city I still went to yard at 6.00 did the usual went to work came back and groomed.  It just wasnt done to have a horse not looking well presented and as I was very proud of my horses I always did what was necessary.
		
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That certainly wasn't my routine!

Our horse was kept on a farm. In winter he went out every day unless there was so much snow on the gorund that his steep field was dangerous.  I went with my father on the way to work to feed him and put him out.  Then we carried on, I usually ate my breakfast in the car, Dad dropped me off at the station and I carried on to work.  After work sis and I went to muck out and bring the horse in.  There was was  a tap at the stable but we had to take water carriers from home to the field.  There was no electricity, so we used a candle ina jam-jar (as prescribed by the farmer's wife) to light our way.  We had a flashing orange torch to warn the traffic as we led the horse from field to stable along the road.  In summer the horse lived out 24/7.  I do remember brushing his tail out every time I rode which I don't necessarily bother to do these days.
The RS where I learned to ride turned their ponies out 24/7 all winter.  They only stayed in on Saturday night so that they were ready for work on Sunday.  The only equines that stayed in were the hunters.  They were all healthy and i had never heard of KS either - I wonder if close fitting saddles are to blame.


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## rowan666 (13 November 2012)

all mine are kept out 24/7 and have never had mudfever/ rainscold or colic! they have a fab field shelter so they can come and go as they please and they choose to stay out and seem only to use the shelter as a loo which i muck out daily!!


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## Renvers (13 November 2012)

I remember 30 years ago there being as many people on my yard who would turn up at 10am to turn out as there were people who turned up at 6am. 

Think sweeping generalisations were as relevant then as they are now...


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## Brightbay (13 November 2012)

When did this firmly held belief emerge, that horses who live out in the winter spend their entire time looking miserable, up to their hocks in mud with nothing to eat?  i keep reading posts recently that suggest there are only two alternatives - in a lovely warm cosy snug stable 24/7 all winter (bar the hour on the horse walker) or outside standing in mud.

Am I the only one who has happy horses who live in a field that is occasionally wet, but still covered in grass?

I mean, it rains a lot here, in the wilds of the north, but somehow we come through each winter with grass still on the ground, and horses who haven't seen enough mud to end up with mud fever.  Oh, and fit too, as they've been outside walking around, rather than imitating their owner and eating their lunch sitting down at their desk 

Love hearing from Perkins, by the way.  I am sure I remember my nana telling me she could never have got into her sidesaddle without his help


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## Littlelegs (13 November 2012)

Thankyou Perkins! Jill will be off having a jolly good time saving the riding school from bankruptcy so you can build it while she's out being a good egg.


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## TrasaM (13 November 2012)

We've got a pond in the middle of the field and the four G's love paddling about in it.. Mind you a lot of the field is mud at the moment but they use that to roll in   them boys are total pigs!!


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## MerrySherryRider (13 November 2012)

TrasaM said:



			We've got a pond in the middle of the field and the four G's love paddling about in it.. Mind you a lot of the field is mud at the moment but they use that to roll in   them boys are total pigs!!
		
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Dahhhling ! You poor thing, how frightful to have such common bog ponies. Get Perkins to come over and give them a good strapping.


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## HaffiesRock (13 November 2012)

Brightbay said:



			When did this firmly held belief emerge, that horses who live out in the winter spend their entire time looking miserable, up to their hocks in mud with nothing to eat?  i keep reading posts recently that suggest there are only two alternatives - in a lovely warm cosy snug stable 24/7 all winter (bar the hour on the horse walker) or outside standing in mud.

Am I the only one who has happy horses who live in a field that is occasionally wet, but still covered in grass?

I mean, it rains a lot here, in the wilds of the north, but somehow we come through each winter with grass still on the ground, and horses who haven't seen enough mud to end up with mud fever.  Oh, and fit too, as they've been outside walking around, rather than imitating their owner and eating their lunch sitting down at their desk 

Love hearing from Perkins, by the way.  I am sure I remember my nana telling me she could never have got into her sidesaddle without his help 

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My pony lives out, naked 24/7. He has a large field with a woodland attached to it. Spends his days hooning around with his friends and eating the grass. If I bought him in he'd be a complete nightmare to handle, fat as anything and generally an unhappy sod. A livery put on Facebook yesterday that she had spoken to my horse while poo picking and he had said to her he wanted me to pay for him to have a nice cosy warm stable as he was cold and miserable out! She also suggested I rug him. He has the equivilant on a super heavy weight in his own fur. He sweats stood grazing! I pointed out he is the happiest horse on the yard. Each to their own I say x


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## FfionWinnie (13 November 2012)

Oh my stars Perkins. It really is you!  Only Perkins would know about the goats. I must tell Mummy she always worried what happened to you after Daddy dismissed you for being too old and doddery. 70 years service with our family wasn't it. 

How nice to hear of Jill too, and she is still doing her gymkhanas by the sounds of things. No doubt white washing away merrily. 

Splendid memories. Do keep in touch.


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## sophiebailey (13 November 2012)

What's strapping? 

Don't think I could cope with all that grooming!


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## travelmad (13 November 2012)

Life has changed completely. People work long hours, and no longer keep horses at home. We have to rely on livery as it's not affordable for a lot of people to buy land, thus spaces for keeping horses are smaller as livery yards try fit in more. 

But ... Horse riding is not longer a stuffy sport you can only do if you are upper class and dressed properly, and that has opened up a sport to so many people, and I for one think that is wonderful.


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## travelmad (13 November 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Ignore previous post, I'm with you all the way. Infact I'm building a stable for my daughter Jill to keep her two ponies in, as a xmas present. Currently she keeps her new jumping pony at the riding school.
		
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Liked this one... Sounds like it could be a storyline for a novel...


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## TrasaM (13 November 2012)

horserider said:



			Dahhhling ! You poor thing, how frightful to have such common bog ponies. Get Perkins to come over and give them a good strapping.[/QUOTE

Was thinking of making an application to the community service ppl to see if they had some miscreants who need keeping out if mischief and repay their debt to society. Sounds like old Billy Perkins will be busy until after Christmas  

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## Orangehorse (13 November 2012)

The OP is going back quite a long time, when livery yards were mostly hunting yards.  For private owners the option was to keep at home, rent a field or keep at a riding school.

The rise of the DIY yard has enabled lots more people to own a horse.  Some are a long way from perfect and I expect there is some bad practice, and some things that the old timers would throw up their hands in horror at - but horses can survive quite a lot of different mangagement and virtually all owners have their horse's welfare at heart.


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## Littlelegs (13 November 2012)

It's soooo common to leave your horse out spotty falula, & please don't tell fibs, the poor thing is only distracted from how cold & unhappy he is by the rainscald & mudfever all turned out horses have.


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## Slightly Foxed (13 November 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Thankyou Perkins! Jill will be off having a jolly good time saving the riding school from bankruptcy so you can build it while she's out being a good egg.
		
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Thank you ma'am. Jill will 'ave a complete set of stables, an indoor and an outdoor school by the time she gets home from saving the riding school and winning the Posh School riding competition (all in one day) cos she's a jolly good egg. 

By the way, can I 'ave my stoop back? I left it under the foundations.


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## Slightly Foxed (13 November 2012)

TrasaM said:





horserider said:



			Dahhhling ! You poor thing, how frightful to have such common bog ponies. Get Perkins to come over and give them a good strapping.[/QUOTE

Strapping miss?? Mmmm, count on me, Perkins! Can I assist you with the point to point?
		
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## Goldenstar (13 November 2012)

Brightbay said:



			When did this firmly held belief emerge, that horses who live out in the winter spend their entire time looking miserable, up to their hocks in mud with nothing to eat?  i keep reading posts recently that suggest there are only two alternatives - in a lovely warm cosy snug stable 24/7 all winter (bar the hour on the horse walker) or outside standing in mud.

Am I the only one who has happy horses who live in a field that is occasionally wet, but still covered in grass?

I mean, it rains a lot here, in the wilds of the north, but somehow we come through each winter with grass still on the ground, and horses who haven't seen enough mud to end up with mud fever.  Oh, and fit too, as they've been outside walking around, rather than imitating their owner and eating their lunch sitting down at their desk 


Love hearing from Perkins, by the way.  I am sure I remember my nana telling me she could never have got into her sidesaddle without his help 

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Oh yes and do remember him running in front to open all the gates ah those where the days.


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## Littlelegs (13 November 2012)

Omg trasam, you were planning to let common criminals near the dahling ponies. That simply won't do my dear. Some of those miscreants might be (takes deep breath).... From the lower classes! (shudders).


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## Slightly Foxed (13 November 2012)

Perkins here, mmm, sidesaddle... Snork and snuffle...


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## HaffiesRock (13 November 2012)

littlelegs said:



			It's soooo common to leave your horse out spotty falula, & please don't tell fibs, the poor thing is only distracted from how cold & unhappy he is by the rainscald & mudfever all turned out horses have.
		
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I suppose if I looked more closely he would be hooning around from all the itching from the mites he has, scabs of mudfever, because hes cold and hungry, bored maybe? I am a cruel cruel woman 

First thing tomorrow I will hunter clip him, invest in a whole wardrobe of heavyweight rugs with necks, fill a stable with hay and straw and keep him in 23 hours a day. I do apologise to everyone for my incompetence as a horse owner. Please dont report me to the RSPCA. I will employ a groom too! Perkins, are you free? xx


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## Goldenstar (13 November 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Omg trasam, you were planning to let common criminals near the dahling ponies. That simply won't do my dear. Some of those miscreants might be (takes deep breath).... From the lower classes! (shudders).
		
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No no no its well known our type of equines just don't  'do' the lower classes.


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## TrasaM (13 November 2012)

Damn it to Hell Littlelegs..don't you know times are very hard for the Privelaged classes at the moment! Must make ends meet dont you know.


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## moosea (13 November 2012)

My routine as a groom was similar to the OP's. However I do understand that times have changed.

While I do agree that it is good that horses are no long considered an elite hobby, I am also amazed be the lack of basic knowledge from a lot of horse owners.
Grooming is one of my pet hates - not that I hate doing it, but hate that people think that it is only for making the horse look good.
Correct grooming after exercise promotes healthy skin and improves muscle tone, among other things, and how anyone can check a horses legs for injuries while those legs are caked in mud is beyond me


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## FfionWinnie (13 November 2012)

Spottyfalulah, do come along to our special jumping competition Captain Cholly-Sawcut is kindly letting us hold. Myself Jill and Ann Derry have arranged, at a moments notice, some jolly fun games and there will be lemonade!


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## TrasaM (13 November 2012)

My name is Roberta, friend's call me Bobby. Can I come along and bring my little pony Shelta ? I promise not to wipe my nose on my sleeve ..please


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## Slightly Foxed (13 November 2012)

What?? No lashings of ginger beer??

I jolly well hope it's raining, then I'll be able to wear my jolly waterproof oilskin riding coat that weighs more than me! (Not Perkins  now!)


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## Goldenstar (13 November 2012)

We seem to have wondered in a French and Saunders and sketch .


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## littlemisslauren (13 November 2012)

I actually wanted to click on this thread and say yes and have a bit of a rant. But i'm afriad I completely disagree with the OP.

OP when did you muck out, properly? Not just removing poo. The thought of not removing wet bedding daily is poor management in my opinion.


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## MerrySherryRider (13 November 2012)

moosea said:



			My routine as a groom was similar to the OP's. However I do understand that times have changed.

While I do agree that it is good that horses are no long considered an elite hobby, I am also amazed be the lack of basic knowledge from a lot of horse owners.
Grooming is one of my pet hates - not that I hate doing it, but hate that people think that it is only for making the horse look good.
Correct grooming after exercise promotes healthy skin and improves muscle tone, among other things, and how anyone can check a horses legs for injuries while those legs are caked in mud is beyond me 

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Of course but no one straps or bangs these days, that's soooo yesterday. 

 Its all Barefoot Shiatsu massage now, don't ya know ?


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## showpony (13 November 2012)

OP seriously laughing @ your post""

Personally I have a FT job ( BUT work from home office ) If I didn't work couldnt afford to pay the bills or support the horse & pony!  Have 2 young kids , one whom is at school! My Mare is now on full livery with 7hrs turnout a day .... I groom 5 days a wk 

..... not going to bother posting anymore... due to the obvious " troll" traits you are displaying!


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## Littlelegs (13 November 2012)

Trasam, but one must consider ones position in society, it just isn't the done thing to associate with the peasants. In the good old days, daddy would have had them all hung. 
  Fw- what a brick you are to organise jolly games, we're all spent up after spending £60 on jills new pony!


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## TrasaM (13 November 2012)

Poo is such a common word dear..manure, we like to call it manure


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## Slightly Foxed (13 November 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			We seem to have wondered in a French and Saunders and sketch .
		
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Snort!


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## Brightbay (13 November 2012)

Ah yes, the mud caked legs again . Well, at least the mud caked legs in my field aren't all filled from standing in 

My mama says I am not allowed to go to any of the local gymkhanas, because people have got lost during treasure hunts and never been found, and other people have suffered concussions due to riding into trees . My name's Clarissa, by the way


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## TrasaM (13 November 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Trasam, but one must consider ones position in society, it just isn't the done thing to associate with the peasants. In the good old days, daddy would have had them all hung. 
  Fw- what a brick you are to organise jolly games, we're all spent up after spending £60 on jills new pony!
		
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I will make sure that only the best class of ..er miscreant, is supplied. Daddy can still have them hanged if they don't do a jolly good job. Must do our little bit for the working classes. So few of the poor dears have any education and never get the chance to clear up after a horse.


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## Littlelegs (13 November 2012)

Oh fiddlesticks, I've just read showponys post, & she clearly has no nanny or servants & goes out to work. Jolly unsporting to come on here posting with her betters like an equal, only to later reveal she isn't a real lady. It's just not cricket to blur the social lines in this manner. Jolly bad show.


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## TrasaM (13 November 2012)

showpony said:



			OP seriously laughing @ your post""

Personally I have a FT job ( BUT work from home office ) If I didn't work couldnt afford to pay the bills or support the horse & pony!  Have 2 young kids , one whom is at school! My Mare is now on full livery with 7hrs turnout a day .... I groom 5 days a wk 

..... not going to bother posting anymore... due to the obvious " troll" traits you are displaying!
		
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Oh, you poor darling. You have to work  do you really think you should have a horse....


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## FfionWinnie (13 November 2012)

Here is a photographic image of Jill's new super pony. 

I do think my dear you should consider getting a professional rider to ride such an animal. Jill after all is only doing grade C jumping.


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## Goldenstar (13 November 2012)

Brightbay said:



			Ah yes, the mud caked legs again . Well, at least the mud caked legs in my field aren't all filled from standing in 

My mama says I am not allowed to go to any of the local gymkhanas, because people have got lost during treasure hunts and never been found, and other people have suffered concussions due to riding into trees . My name's Clarissa, by the way 

Click to expand...

Clarissa pray don't worry ,the children that got lost where eventually found, well they where in a cottage at the ' other ' end of the village but they where found and all the trees  did eventually recover so your mater is concern is really unnecessary concerned however we have a plan it should possible for me to persuade Scrogs ( the under gardeners youngest ) to go down the drawing room chimney introducing soot into the room thereby creating a diversion to draw Perkins the butler ( yes the other Perkins brother) away from the front door allowing you to slip out we will leave it you to get a basket of food out of the kitchen without Perkins ( the cook ) noticing .


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## maccachic (13 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			We always had to look smart, hair back no jewellery, clean clothes.

Our horses were always groomed and tidy, I hardly ever heard of colic, laminitis or back problems.

If we could turn out we did, more so in summer, but they always came in and were tidied up.

Mud fever was very rarely heard of as we kept the legs clean and dry.

Today I know people who turn up to yard at about 10am, throw them out in all weathers even if its a gale so they dont have to do the stables.

Others I know keep out 24/7 horses are covered in mud fever, rain scald.

I know this is not all horse owners but there is definately a lack of discipline these days.  I know people work but there is still no exscuse for not putting the extra time into your horses.
		
Click to expand...

Looking tidy why?  My horse doesnt care what I look like and well partner is stuck with me.

Mine live out 24/7/365  hardly wear covers, never had mud fever despite not having there feet polished everday, they would hate me if I locked them inside, they have acess to trees and a shed for shelter and never use the shed.

Its not great to remove all the oil/dirt from the coat it provides protection, and one of mine loves running round dirty.

You do the best for your horse with what you have, I have to go to work so lazing round all day at the paddock is not a luxury most can afford.


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## Herpesas (13 November 2012)

My name is Little Jessica and I own the riding school Jill has saved from bankruptcy - she has invested my last 3/6 in a ponzi scheme and it's guaranteed to double my money!!  New jute rugs all round!!!


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## Littlelegs (13 November 2012)

Thanks for uploading that Fw, I've been busy writing children's books to keep Jill in ponies & stable blocks. Jolly spiffing skirt I'm wearing there too.


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## FfionWinnie (13 November 2012)

Littlelegs your daughter Jill is awfully tall for a 7yr old.


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## TrasaM (13 November 2012)

What a ghastly bungalow. Why can't those people at least live in proper houses


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## ponypilotmum (13 November 2012)

my first job was like that OP. Horses fed straights and if it was too much of a loon or tied up too often it was sent for pedigree chum. 

Back breaking work, but by God you learnt to do things properly. 

Still, I seem to recall those in work year round were turned out daily, and hunters had the summer to become slightly feral - chucked out and not bothered with while we worked on the youngsters. I remember spending many saturday nights pulling thorns from the belly of 17hh of shivering ID, and bathing it's mud fevered legs after a day's galloping round plough. It wasn't all wisps and hairnets. 

We wore breeches that were baggy at the thigh too


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## Goldenstar (13 November 2012)

TrasaM said:



			What a ghastly bungalow. Why can't those people at least live in proper houses 

Click to expand...

I quite agree how can the pony be expected to behaved when faced with that .


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## Littlelegs (13 November 2012)

That's not my 7yr old in the picture, she's away having jolly good fun at her spiffing school, malory towers. That's some delightful children from the village. Not quite top drawer but socially acceptable. 
Trasam- that's jills stable block Perkins built earlier, not my bungalow,


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## Goldenstar (13 November 2012)

Oh a modern stable block you are new money how quaint.


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## Patterdale (13 November 2012)

*snort* Malory Towers!


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## TrasaM (13 November 2012)

All we need now is a visit from the Famous 5 and we've covered all my childhood reading material.


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## Goldenstar (13 November 2012)

TrasaM said:



			All we need now is a visit from the Famous 5 and we've covered all my childhood reading material.
		
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We had lashings of ginger beer earlier keep up dear.


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## TrasaM (13 November 2012)

Too subtle for me besides there was always lashing of ginger beer. Give us a cupple o cokes just does not have the same ring to it


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## Patterdale (13 November 2012)

Wandered into this one a bit late I'm afraid, been out feeding mummy's ghastly chickens. 

Not going to get time to wash the ponies beastly little tails with the soap flakes now - Captain Cholly-Sawcutts going to go ape***** at the gymkhana tomorrow.


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## Littlelegs (13 November 2012)

How dare you accuse me of being new money? It's jolly bad form to discuss financial situations. I suspect from your lack of etiquette you didn't make it to finishing school. How frightfully vulgar you are.


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## Goldenstar (13 November 2012)

littlelegs said:



			How dare you accuse me of being new money? It's jolly bad form to discuss financial situations. I suspect from your lack of etiquette you didn't make it to finishing school. How frightfully vulgar you are.
		
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That's me vulgar , I have made a career of it.
And I have three brother and we will need someone for the younger ones some will add you to the list Daddy keeps in his desk drawer no no dont thank me honestly it's nothing.
( I did not go to finishing school because I only get out of the attic certain times of the month and my pony would hate Switzerland .)


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## Littlelegs (13 November 2012)

Sniggers at ape ****.


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## Littlelegs (13 November 2012)

Lol at Switzerland. 'goldenstar at the chalet school'.


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## Twinkley Lights (13 November 2012)

Crikey chaps Cordelia here so sorry to be late to this thread but I was busy in the tuck shop eating all the Jammy dodgers. Is the gymkhana still on for tomorrow? Can't wait it is so exciting to see ones chums and ride my pony shadow. I think we should have a midnight feast tonight and make tents from our blankets ... and eat more cake. How jolly I must write a thank you letter to mummy and daddy for my wonderful life.


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## jeeve (14 November 2012)

I have a book (2 volumes) for the gentleman farmer, that was written about 150 years ago. It has beautiful pictures and elaborate stories,  care of livestock and horses, hunting, carriage horses, racing horses, pigs, cattle, poultry, sheep, dogs, shooting and fishing and making sure you get good value out of your grooms etc, and that they adequately groom and care for your horses. My dad picked it up at a red cross sale in 1945. My gran kept it for him till we visited uk in 1976, and I have had it ever since.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (14 November 2012)

Well I think it's a bit harsh for everyone who can't keep those schedules. Horse ownership today has more people who can afford horses through hard work. So they really can't have that kind of schedule.

As far as turning out, it's for their mental and physical health and not convience. It would be more convient to not have horses covered in muck at night. In my experience with mud fever, if it is actual mud fever and it's quite easy to clear. But sometimes it can be a little tougher to heal. Those that can be sensitive year round are usually suffering from some sort of photo sensitivity. I don't think it's straight forward nor do I most owners leave horses covered in rot. And I do feel it's a system problem and not just mud. Otherwise every horse would suffer. 

We work with horses for a living and we do not have that kind of schedule. Would drive us and the horses mental. Yet we have healthy shiny horses. And while accidents happen to horses at any time anyplace, I think being out in all sorts teaches them to take care of themselves. 

But I think all common sense has definitely gone out the window in regards to horses. Last night I went out to the barn and noticed 2 with tossed stables and they were a little warm. Horses were agitated as well. I was concerned and said so to hubby. Landlord was there. He is not horsie but likes having them. Awww, how cute. Anyway he says, oh Niamh let Little Billy go and she wandered down to your horses. And then says I think one may have kicked the Walls. Well isn't that great you moron. So I ask why my board(separates my end from idiots) wasn't up. Oh, I had to take it down to get the haylage in. Ok so why couldn't you put it up before you brought horses in? I forgot. Well I said you better hope mine are ok. Trivial but who let's horses just wander for a hello. Maybe people do but I don't because it's stupid. In a barn like.

But really this isn't the first time. My horses were out at the time but a vet, yes really, and his assistant let their horses ramble around the barn aisle because it snowed and they needed exercise. So they pulled over my hay, craped in my aisle, and knocked over my brush buckets. Apparently horses can't go out in snow but it's ok to wander around the barn aisle and destroy things. When I happened upon the scene, sparks were coming off shoes as the dived around destroying the place. If you have your own barn, I just don't care what you do, but otherwise you have to keep others in mind. Needless to say, that didn't happen again. It goes along with not putting water out with your horses in freezing weather because they can get their water from snow like the wild horses. I guess the irony was lost on someone who had 4 shoes on her horse, 500grams of rugs on an Unclipped horse, and put hay out so they wouldn't have to forage. 

I want to know where common sense went! 

Terri


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## The Fuzzy Furry (14 November 2012)

OP - my training was centred around your 'day' mentioned in the 1st post.

These days am far more relaxed & tho I do keep to a routine (it suits me!) with a 6am arrival, I'm far easier about times thereafter. However feet picked out daily, a quick quarter before riding, stables set fair & yard swept before leaving the yard daily - are all part of my routine as is so ingrained.
However - I do only clean my tack once a week (religiously) but it is only weekly


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## Burmilla (14 November 2012)

Good gracious! OP may or may not be a person with noisy feet who spends a lot of time looking carefully under poorly maintained bridges: however, our horses did follow the OP's management routine. They went out every day too. My current horse follows a similiar routine and appears to be a happy loon! Having high standards is not necessarily A Bad Thing, but rigidity is not helpful. And, I wear a hairnet to ride (and so does my groom) because we like to look tidy, and it keeps hair out of the way!  No bridges here either!


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## luckyoldme (14 November 2012)

i remember working as a groom 30 years ago..the routine sounds very familiar.
The horses were immaculate, with those neat little lines wherethey had been fired,
They spent all winter going off their heads stabled 24 hours a day..and all summer hobbling round the fells when they stopped the bute. We worked all the hours for peanuts but did it because we could never dream of owning our own horses.
I ve got my own horse now at last and he is out 24/7 with ad lib hay and a hard feed in the morning, in short hes as bright as a button and totally chilled...hmmmm .
No Im not hankering after the old days!


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## indie999 (14 November 2012)

I think some owners are more wishy washy.Horse Psychology...most of the owners need to be sorted first. And I agree get the back person out is the answer for all problems. Most owners are the problem nowadays very few good genuine horse people around. Most people cant see further than the end of their noses.

However mud fever I remember seeing that a lot in the wet weather. Saddle sores were a lot more common and girth sores(those horrid string girths........). Dreaded sheepskin numnahs now you have a lovely selection.

I do remember horses were stabled a lot more(posh perfect yards did that) and I use to feel sorry for them they had to be ridden for ie one hour a day and then popped back.Thats why you hear a lot more people now turn out. Not cos they are lazy they know it makes happier horses.

But I dont remember vaccinations, dentist, worming, feeds(Oats and linseed if you were ill or worked hard)no fly spray but fly fringes and lemon balm on a cloth for flies. I remember no feet problems ie hooves all shoes on. All plain snaffle. Dutch gag was for something wild and uncontrollable. But never saw it. Vets visit was hardly ever(castration thats it). 

Outdoor clothing is much more practical now too & warmer. Good and bad of both eras. Youngsters are lazier than in the past. I got a bread and butter roll for working all day saturday and same on sunday,no pay just ride for free.


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## pottamus (14 November 2012)

Well what a lovely idilic life that routine would be! Nowadays I am afraid there is something called 'earning a living' that prevents us in time to spend the entire day 'managing' our horses! 
My horse in winter for example is never groomed until I need to ride and then I clean the mud off his saddle, girth and head areas...the rest is still covered in mud!
My lad is not rugged during the winter and is turned out every day (he canters out of his stable every morning happiliy into his field). He is turned out in all weathers, lashing rain, howling gales, knee deep snow...the lot. I have never seen him suffer from any ill effects because of this or because of my lack of management! It can be lashing rain all day and the hair underneath at the roots is bone dry and he is plenty warm.
My horse is my main 'interest' outside of work, he is my leisure and pleasure time and does not need strict management as such for him to be a horse and me to enjoy having him in my life.


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## patch1234 (14 November 2012)

Just out of interest are people under the impression that horse owners 30 years ago didnt work or didnt have busy scedules???  Ask your mum or dad if it was easier 30 years ago.

We did have jobs and had to do things with out the aid of technology that you have today. 

I do not understand why people think its ok to just clean a portion of your horse, if its stood there and youve got your kit out clean the whole body for goodness sake its just laziness not to.  Do you wake up in the morning and wash 1/2 your face or brush 1/2 your hair??

As for the troll comments, borrrrrrrrrring, just because I have the ability to start a conversation on this site doesnt make me a troll, its good to have different opinions on subjects it makes us all think a bit.


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## posie_honey (14 November 2012)

my mare seems to cope just fine living out 24/7 365 thank you 

and yes i just brush saddle area/bridle area when i ride - never the legs unless going somewhere - its when i used to brush/wash the legs that she got mudfever - better for her to keep her own oils/natural barriers

and as for stabling - just try her if you want - you can pay the bill when she breaks down the door and goes back to the field (her usual trick )


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## Littlelegs (14 November 2012)

I think what we're forgetting is 30/40yrs ago the average woman didn't have a good career with early starts & late finishes, or young kids & a ft job. And I very much doubt their were single parents with kids & ft jobs. People with disabilities or long term illness wouldn't have had help making jobs accessible, therefore wouldn't have had the income to make it necessary to look after a horse at the end of a tiring day. Disposable income has increased, so the average young working couple can afford a horse. There's been loads of development, meaning people travel further to the yard than 30/40 yrs ago. So its social dynamics that have changed, with the side effect of changing horse management.


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## touchstone (14 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			Just out of interest are people under the impression that horse owners 30 years ago didnt work or didnt have busy scedules???  Ask your mum or dad if it was easier 30 years ago.

We did have jobs and had to do things with out the aid of technology that you have today. 

I do not understand why people think its ok to just clean a portion of your horse, if its stood there and youve got your kit out clean the whole body for goodness sake its just laziness not to.  Do you wake up in the morning and wash 1/2 your face or brush 1/2 your hair??

As for the troll comments, borrrrrrrrrring, just because I have the ability to start a conversation on this site doesnt make me a troll, its good to have different opinions on subjects it makes us all think a bit.
		
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I really do think that the 'discipline' of having an immaculate horse is simply outdated and impractical nowadays.  The horse is coming to no harm not being fully groomed to within an inch of its life every day, and I'd rather an owner actually spent time riding and enjoying their horse than farting about for appearance's sake.  

Where appearance is important then fair enough, (thinking along the lines of the military, police, royalty etc) but for the average owner, does it really matter that the horse hasn't been strapped that day?  It often isn't laziness, but a fact that many work long hours combined with a commute with travel to do the horses and have families to see to as well as other commitments.  If they can make life easier for themselves and the horse is not coming to any harm then I can't see a problem.

I've done the whole disciplined thing of keeping horses immaculate and currently have a native that is happily out with minimal grooming and enjoing being a horse. No complaints or health issues from her or me.  
 I don't even go out to work, so I must be  a right lazy cow, and our tb's were often turned away with just the basics done back in the day, they were often happier and healthier than the stabled fussed over animals.


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## Tnavas (14 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			Around 30/40 years ago horse owners were incredibly more disciplined in their own management of horses.  I dont mean farm horses or similar but riding horses.

For example my day was as follows:
6.00 - arrive at yard check all horses are well.
6.15 - 6.30am feed all horses and put up small net.
7.00 remove feed buckets, change rugs if necessary, skip out.
8.00 lightly groom those to be ridden
8.30 - 10.30 tack up and ride
10.30 full groom including strapping if necessary
12.00 tack cleaning
1.00 2nd feed and small net
Lunch
2.00 remove feed buckets skip out
3.00 ride those not ridden in the morning then groom
5.30 skip out 3rd feed and large hay net, change rugs, set fair
8.30 (if on evening check) check horses fill nets check all is well, skip out if necessary.
We always had to look smart, hair back no jewellery, clean clothes.
Our horses were always groomed and tidy, I hardly ever heard of colic, laminitis or back problems.
If we could turn out we did, more so in summer, but they always came in and were tidied up.
Mud fever was very rarely heard of as we kept the legs clean and dry.
Today I know people who turn up to yard at about 10am, throw them out in all weathers even if its a gale so they dont have to do the stables.
Others I know keep out 24/7 horses are covered in mud fever, rain scald.
I know this is not all horse owners but there is definately a lack of discipline these days.  I know people work but there is still no exscuse for not putting the extra time into your horses.
		
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So know what you mean - so frustrating that people these days horses overfed, overrugged and under worked. They have every ailment under the sun and the latest craze - they can't eat grass!

Horses were generally always sound and we trotted on the tarmac for around 1hour everyday. Only fat native ponies got laminitis. The ponies never wore rugs in winter. The stabled horses wore a wool lined jute rug and once clipped a striped Witney blanket. We didn't use saddle blankets or numnahs and the horse only wore a snaffle bridle with a cavesson noseband - and heaven forbid it had a single joint!

I miss those days as I see grooms around me who wouldn't have a clue how many dungs their horse had done each day - don't notice the state of the box or even if the horse has eaten its feed from the night before. We fed four to five times a day with last feed at 10pm stables. We fed oats, barley, sugarbeet and linseed which we boiled for hours.


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## tallyho! (14 November 2012)

I say! That does sound like a spiffing routine Patch. 

It wouldn't do very well for my hippy-beliefs. I can talk to my horses you see. From a distance. They say they like the world to look blue and green. Watch the eagles take to flight. (I keep telling them they are buzzards but they don't believe me). 

See, look, Buzzards. Tsk.


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## touchstone (14 November 2012)

I agree that many are overfed and overrugged nowadays, but there is more at play than just that at creating laminitic/metabolic issues I think. 

 Our grasslands have changed dramatically with the use of high nitrogen fertilisers when it used to be the remnants of the cow byre that went on the land; herbicides are used much more widely and anthelmintics/vaccines are added to the horses system more regularly. 

Add to that the fact that most horses were hacked to events rather than boxed and nowadays there are horses that have to be boxed in order to hack safely, it is a changing world and past methods aren't applicable in the same way.  I for one am thankful that I no longer have to spend hours boiling linseed and barley.  

Not noticing whether a horse has done sufficient droppings or eaten its feed is bad management regardless of the methods used.

Those that were lame or ill were often shipped off to the knackers yard, nowadays people persevere with what would have been 'hopeless' years ago.   Horses still broke down just the same,  and I well remember the saddle sores on school ponies from badly fitted tack


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## Patterdale (14 November 2012)

*trots smartly back into thread on Black Boy*

*retreats hurriedly back to the orchard, horrified at the serious turn it has taken overnight*


















(*stops for a snackeroo of macaroons*)


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## tallyho! (14 November 2012)

Any macaroons left?


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## touchstone (14 November 2012)

patterdale said:



			*trots smartly back into thread on Black Boy*

*retreats hurriedly back to the orchard, horrified at the serious turn it has taken overnight*







Sorry it's probably my fault, but I'm always up for a macaroon, and the neighbouring farmers wife will likely come out with a basket of pork pies and ginger beer if we call by on our next jollly hack. 

Click to expand...


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## Patterdale (14 November 2012)

Frightfully sorry, Captain Cholly-Sawcutts fat kids have scoffed the lot.


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## Amymay (14 November 2012)

I have to say that I've been really lucky in my experiences with other people and how they look after their horses.

And whilst we may not all subscribe to the original posts's management - I can say hand on heart that where I've kept my horses the standards of care have been really excellent.

Who cares if a horse has a rug on that it might not need during the winter? Who cares if the horse gets a little too much feed, and not quite enough exercise? Providing its needs are taken care of in a proficient and caring manner - that's all that really matters.

The mention, though, of back problems is a particularly interesting one.  Back problems weren't an issue many years ago, because it really wasn't a consideration for many.  Saddle bought (not particularly fitted) slapped on and that was it.  Physios - what were they?  How many horses do we see nowadays with white hair on their backs and whither areas?  Not many.

Routine medical attention is so much better nowadays - if a horse has a snivel a vet is called (and good on the owner for doing it).  People take care to ensure tack is well fitting.  They obsess about what to feed, whether to shoe, whether the horse is out / in for too long - not long enough.

We are a nation of obsessors when it comes to our horses - and I thank God for it.


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## Bedlam (14 November 2012)

Just off to set fair my yard........


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## Goldenstar (14 November 2012)

Bedlam said:



			Just off to set fair my yard........
		
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Don't forget to plait the straw at the front of the stalls.


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## Amymay (14 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			Just out of interest are people under the impression that horse owners 30 years ago didnt work or didnt have busy scedules???  Ask your mum or dad if it was easier 30 years ago.
		
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30 years ago the horse leisure industry certainly wasn't what it was today - and what there was of it was probably made up pony club ponies. Pony dragged in from field when needing to be ridden, and chucked out again afterwards.

Livery yards - what were they??


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## Hippona (14 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			Around 30/40 years ago horse owners were incredibly more disciplined in their own management of horses.  I dont mean farm horses or similar but riding horses.

For example my day was as follows:

6.00 - arrive at yard check all horses are well.

6.15 - 6.30am feed all horses and put up small net.

7.00 remove feed buckets, change rugs if necessary, skip out.

8.00 lightly groom those to be ridden

8.30 - 10.30 tack up and ride

10.30 full groom including strapping if necessary

12.00 tack cleaning

1.00 2nd feed and small net

Lunch

2.00 remove feed buckets skip out

3.00 ride those not ridden in the morning then groom

5.30 skip out 3rd feed and large hay net, change rugs, set fair

8.30 (if on evening check) check horses fill nets check all is well, skip out if necessary.

We always had to look smart, hair back no jewellery, clean clothes.

Our horses were always groomed and tidy, I hardly ever heard of colic, laminitis or back problems.

If we could turn out we did, more so in summer, but they always came in and were tidied up.

Mud fever was very rarely heard of as we kept the legs clean and dry.

Today I know people who turn up to yard at about 10am, throw them out in all weathers even if its a gale so they dont have to do the stables.

Others I know keep out 24/7 horses are covered in mud fever, rain scald.

I know this is not all horse owners but there is definately a lack of discipline these days.  I know people work but there is still no exscuse for not putting the extra time into your horses.
		
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Fabulous....but I wouldn't be able to fit in a full time job if I did the above....

So. My day

Up at 6.10.

Horses fed and out by 6.30
Stables mucked out, haynets up,trough filled

Back in house for 7.30am

Off to work for 9 am.

Check horses at lunchtime

Finish work 5pm ish

Evenings.....fill water buckets, make up haynets, poo-pick.

Groom, check horses, ride.

Bring in....back home anywhere between 7pm and 10pm depending on time of year.

Additionally...I have 2 dogs, 2 kids and shift-working husband to fit in....

Disciplined enough for you?


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## 3BayGeldings (14 November 2012)

Fair enough, great routine if your full time job is as groom to those horses but otherwise.. 

I get to the yard at 6.45 and pick hooves, apply hoof dressing, change rug, turn out, muck out, do haynets/water and feeds. Then work from 8 until half 5. Then back to bring in, groom, ride/lunge, cool off, put away for the night and feed. 

I hope that is good enough.


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## Amymay (14 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			However when I worked in the city I still went to yard at 6.00 did the usual went to work came back and groomed.
		
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Which is what the vast majority of people do - So I'm not sure ultimately what point you are trying to make.......


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## TrasaM (14 November 2012)

My friend, whose horses I ride and help care for, has just had some shelters built so that the horses will have a choice of coming in in bad weather. What's the betting that they will actually use them? There are six horses of varying breeds..included an Arab and a TB, who are happily living out. All are now rugged up. They are a happy well adjusted  bunch and in good condition apart from Arab baby who needs to gain a bit of weight. From a human perspective it's a royal pain in the bum having to groom them when they get muddy but it's doing them no harm. Two of them are prone to mud fever but they got this summer because of the rain.  I can't imagine any one of them being happy stabled. .


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## kirstykate (14 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			Around 30/40 years ago horse owners were incredibly more disciplined in their own management of horses.  I dont mean farm horses or similar but riding horses.

For example my day was as follows:

6.00 - arrive at yard check all horses are well.

6.15 - 6.30am feed all horses and put up small net.

7.00 remove feed buckets, change rugs if necessary, skip out.

8.00 lightly groom those to be ridden

8.30 - 10.30 tack up and ride

10.30 full groom including strapping if necessary

12.00 tack cleaning

1.00 2nd feed and small net

Lunch

2.00 remove feed buckets skip out

3.00 ride those not ridden in the morning then groom

5.30 skip out 3rd feed and large hay net, change rugs, set fair

8.30 (if on evening check) check horses fill nets check all is well, skip out if necessary.

We always had to look smart, hair back no jewellery, clean clothes.

Our horses were always groomed and tidy, I hardly ever heard of colic, laminitis or back problems.

If we could turn out we did, more so in summer, but they always came in and were tidied up.

Mud fever was very rarely heard of as we kept the legs clean and dry.

Today I know people who turn up to yard at about 10am, throw them out in all weathers even if its a gale so they dont have to do the stables.

Others I know keep out 24/7 horses are covered in mud fever, rain scald.

I know this is not all horse owners but there is definately a lack of discipline these days.  I know people work but there is still no exscuse for not putting the extra time into your horses.
		
Click to expand...


Mine are kept as close to this idea as I can.  I work full time, so mine are

5.45 Breakfast, skip out water changed and Haynets up with daughters help.

7.30 Back in the house to get ready for work, and put washing on/away, hoover, quick tidy.

8.15 Leave for work

4.30 Daughter feeds and does haynets/water buckets.

5.00 Home change out to the yard skip out.

6.00 In for T wash up, more washing if needed!

7.00  Back out to yard, exercise/groom

9.00 Final feed skip out, feed the 2 dogs.

9.30 Inside to sit down and chill out


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## ribbons (14 November 2012)

The regime op describes was common place years ago and I worked in yards at that time. I don't think the lack of turnout was ever good for the horses, however I think some of the idiots keeping horses these days do far more harm than was ever done 30 odd years ago. 
I was taught in those days by an army captain. Everything was immaculate, in fact the saying in the yard was "if it moves, salute it. If it doesn't, paint it". 
Much of it was unnecessary I suppose but it instilled a sense of pride and responsibility, sadly lacking in all walks of life these days, not just the horse world. 
My old dad used to say " there are horse people, and there are people who keep horses". Something that is blindingly obvious when reading the diverse mix of posters on this forum.


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## skint1 (14 November 2012)

Sometimes I pretend I have a Perkins, 

I get up at 05:30, check my emails, sort my house out etc  go to the stables around 06:45 turn out between 2-5 horses (my own and other peoples-we are all in it together) muck out at least 1 but sometimes 2 (daughter's horse, if loaner is away and daughter not around)  or sometimes I chuck my horse in an empty stable with some hay, muck out and then ride with a friend at around 7:45, I get to work around 09:30 as I am clearly a slacker. I then get back up the yard around 18:00 or later and everything is ready for them to come in for the night I am a bit senile and forget my early morning frivolity and I think "ah bless that Perkins"   Sometimes, if someone finishes work earlier, they will bring them in for me.  I also help a friend who keeps her horses on a farm because I don't like to think of her alone in the dark down there. Her horses live out, though they don't have mud fever, so it doesn't take long to sort them out for the night. 

Then I go home, usually around 8pm, put dinner on, shower, eat dinner, clean up, do another hour or two of internet and work emails, get everything ready for the morning, and go to bed.

I wish I had a Mrs Perkins to do all the housework too


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## kirstykate (14 November 2012)

ribbons said:



			The regime op describes was common place years ago and I worked in yards at that time. I don't think the lack of turnout was ever good for the horses, however I think some of the idiots keeping horses these days do far more harm than was ever done 30 odd years ago. 
I was taught in those days by an army captain. Everything was immaculate, in fact the saying in the yard was "if it moves, salute it. If it doesn't, paint it". 
Much of it was unnecessary I suppose but it instilled a sense of pride and responsibility, sadly lacking in all walks of life these days, not just the horse world. 
My old dad used to say " there are horse people, and there are people who keep horses". Something that is blindingly obvious when reading the diverse mix of posters on this forum.
		
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I wish there were more people like old dad still in this world


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## Pearlsasinger (14 November 2012)

littlelegs said:



			I think what we're forgetting is 30/40yrs ago the average woman didn't have a good career with early starts & late finishes, or young kids & a ft job. And I very much doubt their were single parents with kids & ft jobs. People with disabilities or long term illness wouldn't have had help making jobs accessible, therefore wouldn't have had the income to make it necessary to look after a horse at the end of a tiring day. Disposable income has increased, so the average young working couple can afford a horse. There's been loads of development, meaning people travel further to the yard than 30/40 yrs ago. So its social dynamics that have changed, with the side effect of changing horse management.
		
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I think what OP is forgetting is that she worked as a groom when she stuck to that routine.  There were no where near as many horse-owners 30/40 yrs ago.  The advent of better career choices  for women and the Equalities Act has brought the financial ability to own a horse to the masses but this means that the vast majority of horse-owners keep their single horse at some sort of livery and have to fit their routine around their working lives.


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## ribbons (14 November 2012)

Trouble is everyone wants everything. Demanding careers, horses, children. It's not possible to do it all properly so everything is compromised. Its an excuse not a reason.


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## kirstykate (14 November 2012)

ribbons said:



			Trouble is everyone wants everything. Demanding careers, horses, children. It's not possible to do it all properly so everything is compromised. Its an excuse not a reason.
		
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My horses come first, they are definitely not compromised, but as for the child!!  Thats another matter


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## Trot_On_Dressage (14 November 2012)

I'm going to stick up for the OP here. 

Rather than there being a lack of management regarding the routine the OP spoke off, I definitely think there is a lack of discipline to horses management in terms of their care these days.

Grooming is not only to make your horse look nice and cared for. It's an opportunity to bond with your horse, look for cuts, feel for bruises, increase circulation, promote healthy skin, relax tired muscles etc etc. I fully groom my horse every day without fail and I even strap him. The result, a lovely shiny soft coated horse. 

The type of routine the OP mentions is the ideal stable routine if you don't have other things to do. How ever, there are important areas within that routine that should be done everyday. 

It is definitely a good thing the horse industry has changed and has become open to those who wouldn't have been able to have a horse in days gone by. But a consequence of this is not everyone knows horse management and basic care. In the old days it would have been the grooms that would have looked after the horses so the horses would have been looked after by knowledgable people.


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## Hippona (14 November 2012)

ribbons said:



			Trouble is everyone wants everything. Demanding careers, horses, children. It's not possible to do it all properly so everything is compromised. Its an excuse not a reason.
		
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Speak for yourself. I compromise on nothing. Other than housework


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## FfionWinnie (14 November 2012)

Far fewer horses suffer from vices these days. When I was a child I remember many many horses weaved, windsucked and cribbed.  Don't know when I last saw one in recent years. 

I don't see the need for the snobbery in this thread. I had a "proper" horsey upbringing with pony club education. A lot of it is good, a lot of it is not necessary for the health of the horse. 

At one pony club camp none of us achieved 10/10 for beds for the entire week except one boy, and we couldn't see what we were doing differently to him (nor could he). It turned out he was putting the handle of the water bucket on the corner side rather than the horse side (no doubt because he was left handed and we were all right handed, it was just natural).  It does mean I always put the handle of the water bucket on the corner side now but really, is it necessary, does it make much difference, probably not!

Mine are out 24/7 and I no doubt do things "correctly" other than that, according to the op's take on correct, because I am a stickler for doing things the old fashioned correct way. However they are out 24/7 because they are quite happy that way and no, I don't want to be mucking out stables if I don't need to.  Modern rugs make it easy to keep a hard working horse in good condition out side.  

Incidentally my new horse came from a stabled situation WITH mud fever and I have got rid of it no problem in my situation. 

And op, there is no problem provoking discussion, but I think you want to provoke argument due to the tone of your opening post. You weren't asking a question you were stating that horse care has gone down the swanney.


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## Tinypony (14 November 2012)

ribbons said:



			Trouble is everyone wants everything. Demanding careers, horses, children. It's not possible to do it all properly so everything is compromised. Its an excuse not a reason.
		
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Define "properly". 
I've got 3 living happy as pigs in ***** in a well sheltered field with a shelter and barn.  I don't over-groom them because they live out, but horses don't care about a bit of mud.  We have no mud fever, rainscald or other nasties.  Their hooves are treated like precious objects.  They get various vets, physios etc in when needed.  I think they are very well cared for.  I can understand why some people choose to keep horses stabled for the majority of the time (convenience, worried about their fields, liking their horses to keep looking nice) but I don't think that's the best or healthiest option for the horses themselves.  
What would a horse choose I wonder?  A shiny coat and a life stabled, or a bit of mud and interaction with other equines?


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## 9tails (14 November 2012)

Hippona said:



			Speak for yourself. I compromise on nothing. Other than housework

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Me too!  I'd rather live where my horse lives, her cupboards are also better stocked than mine.


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## Littlelegs (14 November 2012)

Speak for yourself ribbons. You might not be the type who can have it all & do it properly, but don't assume because you can't/couldn't manage nobody can.


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## ozpoz (14 November 2012)

Re. grooming /strapping though...my back person recently commented that people no longer grooming or strapping their horses is a factor in back muscles not being as strong as they used to be, with resulting injuries/strains. It is a form of massage after all.
 I thought back to what I used to do - and I have begun strapping my own again. I used to do 10 mins daily without ever thinking about it!
I also think horses were kept fit for their job mainly through hacking out. There was very little schoolwork, even in professional yards and I think horses were  happier in themselves with this.
 I also wonder if in pre insurance and routine antibiotic days it was crucial to pick up on small injuries and sources of infection quickly, and thorough grooming consequently was much more important.


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## Rudolph's Red Nose (14 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			Around 30/40 years ago horse owners were incredibly more disciplined in their own management of horses.  I dont mean farm horses or similar but riding horses.

For example my day was as follows:

6.00 - arrive at yard check all horses are well.

6.15 - 6.30am feed all horses and put up small net.

7.00 remove feed buckets, change rugs if necessary, skip out.

8.00 lightly groom those to be ridden

8.30 - 10.30 tack up and ride

10.30 full groom including strapping if necessary

12.00 tack cleaning

1.00 2nd feed and small net

Lunch

2.00 remove feed buckets skip out

3.00 ride those not ridden in the morning then groom

5.30 skip out 3rd feed and large hay net, change rugs, set fair

8.30 (if on evening check) check horses fill nets check all is well, skip out if necessary.

We always had to look smart, hair back no jewellery, clean clothes.

Our horses were always groomed and tidy, I hardly ever heard of colic, laminitis or back problems.

If we could turn out we did, more so in summer, but they always came in and were tidied up.

Mud fever was very rarely heard of as we kept the legs clean and dry.

Today I know people who turn up to yard at about 10am, throw them out in all weathers even if its a gale so they dont have to do the stables.

Others I know keep out 24/7 horses are covered in mud fever, rain scald.

I know this is not all horse owners but there is definately a lack of discipline these days.  I know people work but there is still no exscuse for not putting the extra time into your horses.
		
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mmmm funny reading your post I was having a sense of 'deja vu', read / seen somewhere else - you may not be a clip clopping bearded little being who uses bridges for cover but seriously what is the point ?

for everyone else who has made me laugh on this thread - ginger beers and macroons all around


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## skint1 (14 November 2012)

I have 2 questions that have arisen from reading this troll thread:

1. How does a person do "strapping" on their horse? It sounds like it might be worth doing

2.  I liked the sound of the person's dad who said there was a difference between a horse person and a person who kept horses,  got me thinking, what is the difference?

Is someone who competes at a high level and trains many horses successfully but keeps their horse on full livery, or has staff to do the chores, a horse person?  I don't know, I guess they could be. 
I don't know if I am, I try my best, but sometimes my job and other commitments eat into my horsey time, but I feel like a horse person, I certainly smell like a horse person too


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## Tinypony (14 November 2012)

Not grooming thoroughly (as you can't with horses living out unrugged) means that horses don't get checked over properly and are somehow neglected.  It's still possible to check horses over thoroughly in their field.  As for the massaging benefits - mine get actual massages, lucky things.
Mud fever - seen plenty of this on horses that come in.  I'm sure that leg washing doesn't help.
While I think there should be a certain "discipline" to keeping horses in that they should be looked after properly, visited and checked etc.  How disciplined do we need to be?  In the routine op describes it sounds so regimented.  I thought horse ownership was supposed to be fun.


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## Twinkley Lights (14 November 2012)

Troll or not this thread has been funny. When you are raised in the old pc way habits die hard even though as a grown up you know that you can break the rules.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (14 November 2012)

I definitely agree with the grass thing as one poster put it, grass has changed dramatically. Most grass is for super growing fast which is not for horses. Very few would have issues on native grasses. And you can add big feed to that as well. Thousands of sugary mixes to choose from nowadays and you're made to feel guilty if you don't feed fancy bags full of crap. And most horses really don't need all the hard feed we're convinced they need. If you saw the small portions I fed big horses you'd laugh. They do basic work daily and have a mix of hay and haylage. They don't need much until competing. So yeah, under worked, and over fed is an issue. 

And when you talk about issues someone will always say, well that's a human term. Well of course it is as I'm describing to another human. Look all horses that have "tantrums" or are unruly or difficult or whatever you want to call it are not suffering. They just know what they can get away with. Yes, some are in pain but not the majority. But it's an excuse. When I got my mare back from the trainer she was a bit fried from jumping and rider losing the plot with her a couple of times. Running her into walls, smacked her in the head, and yes he was fired. So when I started getting on her I felt incredibly guilty. I was absolutely not going to confuse her or upset her. Well that transformed into me letting her get away with things that made riding her incredibly difficult. Like, oh princess doesn't like me leg so I won't use any. So then I found that when she had her confidence back she was giving me the big middle finger. Then I had to correct my faulty riding and silliness. I just had to say this is the way it's gonna be and you do have to listen. Once that was sorted, we both grew up. Oh and yup I did the obligatory vet checks, 2 in fact because I was sure it wasn't my ineffectiveness! And now and again she still tries it on. That's her but once she's sure I'm not letting her away with it, she's fine. So yup, I'll admit I failed. And was looking for zebras when I heard hoofbeats if you know what I mean. 

Now all the language I just used is probably totally not politically horsie correct but that's how I can describe it. She's a funny ole thing but she keeps me honest. Where as my other horses I don't have to try very hard and they make me look good. 

Terri


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## Equilibrium Ireland (14 November 2012)

As far as morning routine goes. All get a little turnout in the arena for a buck and a roll while we do chores. Then the ridden ones get brought in for riding and then go back out to the field. Gets them loose. I use a rubber glove in circles all over muscles before a hearty brush and then tack up. Lots of walking before work and then either sponge, bath, or good rub after riding. Cooled out, rugs on and out. At night a good hearty curry and brushing for muscles. That's how the horses at the track were done and how I do it as well. I do stretches with them too. 

Terri


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## millikins (14 November 2012)

Well, I'm sorry OP but none of this adds up for me. If this is the regime you learnt 30/40 years ago, then you must be in your 50's. But in your other posts, you say you own 5 horses, 3 of which you compete and the horse which your dressage rider said was soooooo talented it would go round Badminton is kept on your own yard which is very relaxed. And you have found the time to have a career in the city despite working in racing/competition yards. Perhaps you have found time for all this in which case I apologise but I think I hear the tip tap of cloven hooves.


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## Amymay (14 November 2012)

Millikins said:



			Well, I'm sorry OP but none of this adds up for me. If this is the regime you learnt 30/40 years ago, then you must be in your 50's. But in your other posts, you say you own 5 horses, 3 of which you compete and the horse which your dressage rider said was soooooo talented it would go round Badminton is kept on your own yard which is very relaxed. And you have found the time to have a career in the city despite working in racing/competition yards. Perhaps you have found time for all this in which case I apologise but I think I hear the tip tap of cloven hooves.
		
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Psssttt, you can be in your 50's and compete, have 5 horses, and your own yard.....


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## millikins (14 November 2012)

Yes, I know Amymay, I do at a low level, it's just that the OP's posts smell a funny colour to me.


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## SatansLittleHelper (14 November 2012)

Hmmmm all of my horses live out 24/7..no field shelter other than natural...hedges,trees etc. They are all happy, dirty swamp donkeys...!!!!
Horses being stabled for most of the day actually makes me feel ill...Im claustrophobic and I feel so very sorry for the poor animals than dont have the freedom to express natural behaviours. Horseys live outside..simples lol


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## Ibblebibble (14 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			Around 30/40 years ago horse owners were incredibly more disciplined in their own management of horses.  I dont mean farm horses or similar but riding horses.

For example my day was as follows:

6.00 - arrive at yard check all horses are well.

6.15 - 6.30am feed all horses and put up small net.

7.00 remove feed buckets, change rugs if necessary, skip out.

8.00 lightly groom those to be ridden

8.30 - 10.30 tack up and ride

10.30 full groom including strapping if necessary

12.00 tack cleaning

1.00 2nd feed and small net

Lunch

2.00 remove feed buckets skip out

3.00 ride those not ridden in the morning then groom

5.30 skip out 3rd feed and large hay net, change rugs, set fair

8.30 (if on evening check) check horses fill nets check all is well, skip out if necessary.

We always had to look smart, hair back no jewellery, clean clothes.

Our horses were always groomed and tidy, I hardly ever heard of colic, laminitis or back problems.

If we could turn out we did, more so in summer, but they always came in and were tidied up.

Mud fever was very rarely heard of as we kept the legs clean and dry.

Today I know people who turn up to yard at about 10am, throw them out in all weathers even if its a gale so they dont have to do the stables.

Others I know keep out 24/7 horses are covered in mud fever, rain scald.

I know this is not all horse owners but there is definately a lack of discipline these days.  I know people work but there is still no exscuse for not putting the extra time into your horses.
		
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that is a grooms routine, which is all well and good if you are working as a full time groom but the average horse owner these days has to work as well to afford to keep their horses how exactly does that routine for a full time groom prove that standards have slipped, if you asked a full time groom to list their routine now it would probably be very similar!!


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## PolarSkye (14 November 2012)

ribbons said:



			Everything was immaculate, in fact the saying in the yard was "if it moves, salute it. If it doesn't, paint it". 
Much of it was unnecessary I suppose but it instilled a sense of pride and responsibility, sadly lacking in all walks of life these days, not just the horse world. 
My old dad used to say " there are horse people, and there are people who keep horses". Something that is blindingly obvious when reading the diverse mix of posters on this forum.
		
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This resonated with me.  Partly because I come from a services background (my father was in the RAF), and partly because I witness a vast difference between how people keep their horses.  Me, I'm a little OCD.  GD's bed is immaculate, I keep him very clean (he gets groomed every day), his rugs/bandages, etc. are washed regularly, etc.  But my stable neighbours have a much more relaxed attitude to cleanliness (their horses get properly groomed when they go out to compete, ditto their tack and their rugs are filthy) but their horses are no less well cared for.  The vet is summoned when needed, they have their farrier out regularly, they maintain their horses' condition, work them regularly and are no less caring about their horses than I am.  

Horses for courses is what I say.  As long as horses are kept in the manner which suits them and their owners, who are other people to judge?

P


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## mandwhy (14 November 2012)

If only we could all have a Perkins to keep up this routine! 

I blame feminism, all this going to university and having a job etc, it'd be so much easier if I could have just been a stay at home horse owner fulfilling my frivolous gymkhana winning desires!


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## dark_prince (14 November 2012)

I can sort of understand how you would want a routine for your horses and for them to look smart and presentable, but I don't see how putting your horse out in all weathers is something to be frowned upon? I love having a smart and clean looking horse but I would much rather have a happy horse that is free to run around all day and socialise and get filthy than one that is in all day and spotless?


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## TrasaM (14 November 2012)

mandwhy said:



			If only we could all have a Perkins to keep up this routine! 

I blame feminism, all this going to university and having a job etc, it'd be so much easier if I could have just been a stay at home horse owner fulfilling my frivolous gymkhana winning desires!
		
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Of only I'd realised when I was out waving banners and burning bras that the liberation of women would lead to a deterioration in how horses are managed.  sorry ..this is not what I'd hoped for.. Back you all go to your kitchens


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## Gentle_Warrior (14 November 2012)

mine is out 24/7, rugless, no shelter except tree line, covered in mud, and 20 years old ..... and has never been happier ...... he has done the stable routine with no turn out for 3 months to save the fields and he hated it


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## Littlelegs (14 November 2012)

It's rather working class dahling for a woman to be in the kitchen. That's what servants are jolly well for!


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## sophie550 (14 November 2012)

Im sure its already been said but.. Are we forgetting horses were all once wild? That = No rugs, no feed, no picking out feet etc etc etc and they obviously survived well, other wise we wouldn't have horses now would we! Im just going to stop there before I get carried away!


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## skint1 (14 November 2012)

TrasaM said:



			Of only I'd realised when I was out waving banners and burning bras that the liberation of women would lead to a deterioration in how horses are managed.  sorry ..this is not what I'd hoped for.. Back you all go to your kitchens 

Click to expand...

oh so it was you was it?! Did no one think of the horses?! Oh the equinity!


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## TrasaM (14 November 2012)

littlelegs said:



			It's rather working class dahling for a woman to be in the kitchen. That's what servants are jolly well for!
		
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Not all women are lucky enough to have a Perkins or three  those that can't should content themselves with cooking nice wholesome meals for their husbands and numerous children and give up on this fanciful notion about owning horses . Really, how totally absurd.


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## Gingerwitch (14 November 2012)

Dont use the T word... you will get accused of all sorts like I was the other week - urm........... check out soap box - i think the "i am really upset i have been called a Troll post is kicking about in there" oh and the other posts - in CR and NL - are about my 4 year old that is dangerous

oh and when did you fit in this.... working in the city and being someone high up in an equine charity.... or is that where the money goes that we send to charity???

The Cow
x


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## Gingerwitch (14 November 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			Spottyfalulah, do come along to our special jumping competition Captain Cholly-Sawcut is kindly letting us hold. Myself Jill and Ann Derry have arranged, at a moments notice, some jolly fun games and there will be lemonade!
		
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Susan Pyke here.... can i come to on my 28hh hunter ?


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## ElleSkywalker (14 November 2012)

It's me Mercy Dulbottle, can I come on my horsey my godmother gave me? 

Sure I will be hopeless but am a jolly good sport plus my god mothers minted & will donate heaps of prizes & a feild & cream cakes


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## TrasaM (14 November 2012)

Will the children from the village be coming. I believe some of them have those little hairy cob things..not real horses I know so they won't pose any threat to our little darlings. .


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## tallyho! (14 November 2012)

It's Tamzin here... can I bring along Cascade?


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## Gingerwitch (14 November 2012)

Susan Pyke here with her COMPETITON horse - not a HACKING horse...

he is only 4 and been broken in since yesterday and that only took half an hour.... he jumps 4ft could go higher with ease.....
we have done a full day hunting today and were just taking him to dressage on the way back - do you think it will matter about all the mud ? and were doing a x country clinic tomorrow - do you think he needs more work??


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## tallyho! (14 November 2012)

Absolutely Susan! That's just NOT enough, not for a COMPETITION horse!!!! Why ever isn't he show jumping in the evening?

If he is so talented, how come you have to go to a clinic?


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## Gingerwitch (14 November 2012)

Tally ho old bean.... its my PRO rider thats giving the X Country Clinic ! dont you know anything ! and i can afford it !!!


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## tallyho! (14 November 2012)

*snort* *snarf* Tallyho indeed Susan!!!! Shame I can't come along, I've got to go and discipline my horse management... still a few hours to go.... toodle-oo!


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## Twinkley Lights (14 November 2012)

So glad this thread is back on track and making sense again...

Cordelia here can I bring Shadow he is such a jolly heap of mischief and the plaster casts are being removed from my arms and legs tomorrow.  

We can have such high jinks and fun and take tea and sponge-cake.  I'm such a tomboy but I will wash my face and comb my hair in the looking glass to look like a girl so you know it's me.  

Mummy and Daddy have said I can go noblesse oblige and all that .. but have cautioned that one should take care not to talk to any non u sorts who use words such as toilet and lounge. I'm sure they will be civil and know their station with their little carthorses.


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## FfionWinnie (14 November 2012)

Gingerwitch said:



			Dont use the T word... you will get accused of all sorts like I was the other week - urm........... check out soap box - i think the "i am really upset i have been called a Troll post is kicking about in there" oh and the other posts - in CR and NL - are about my 4 year old that is dangerous

oh and when did you fit in this.... working in the city and being someone high up in an equine charity.... or is that where the money goes that we send to charity???

The Cow
x
		
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Er I hadn't clicked that patch was the charity worker as well as a city worker and owner who has pros ride the horses. What a fascinating life. 



ElleSkywalker said:



			It's me Mercy Dulbottle, can I come on my horsey my godmother gave me? 

Sure I will be hopeless but am a jolly good sport plus my god mothers minted & will donate heaps of prizes & a feild & cream cakes 

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Oh Mercy, so good to see you!!!


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## Gingerwitch (14 November 2012)

She does a nice line in PM's too.... have just posted it on a new thread. 

teeee heeeee heeee


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## Twinkley Lights (14 November 2012)

cmon now ladies be silly please ....


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## Suechoccy (14 November 2012)

The day-long routine mentioned in the OP's first post on this thread was a routine devised by the British Military to keep the cavalry and artillery troops busy for the whole day and thus to stop them getting into mischief or being deviant.

It wasn't designed with the horse management in mind but with man management.


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## FfionWinnie (14 November 2012)

Was the 2nd thread about the yard that wouldn't let he horse be put down deleted?


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## Gingerwitch (14 November 2012)

ohhh i did not know that was her too - 

she does get about !


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## tallyho! (14 November 2012)

Suechoccy said:



			The day-long routine mentioned in the OP's first post on this thread was a routine devised by the British Military to keep the cavalry and artillery troops busy for the whole day and thus to stop them getting into mischief or being deviant.

It wasn't designed with the horse management in mind but with man management.
		
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I say! Well, one thing is for sure... there is no room for lashings of ginger beer!

This explains much about the OP Suechoccy... I think the disciplin is not enough!!! She is still being mischievous and is a complete HHO deviant!!!!! 

Perhaps you could show here where she is going wrong? It would be jolly good of you!


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## FfionWinnie (14 November 2012)

Gingerwitch said:



			ohhh i did not know that was her too - 

she does get about !
		
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Was that to me, I thought that's what you meant about being high up in an equine charity, the person who posted saying the horse didn't need pts, said they were but I can't find the thread to check. (Olympic gold if you can follow that!)


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## Gingerwitch (14 November 2012)

ff = that was off one of the recent posts i think the one in CR - where she wanted a proper response to the dangerous 4 year old.... she mentioned it in there


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## FfionWinnie (14 November 2012)

Gingerwitch said:



			ff = that was off one of the recent posts i think the one in CR - where she wanted a proper response to the dangerous 4 year old.... she mentioned it in there
		
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Ah right ok.


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## Shysmum (14 November 2012)

I love the way people have been taken in again ! hahaha, the truth is before your eyes guys ! 

Oh and I set my stable fair tonight, laughing as i was thinking about this troll, so thanks Patch1234, you've put a smile on my face today


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## FfionWinnie (14 November 2012)

shysmum said:



			I love the way people have been taken in again ! hahaha, the truth is before your eyes guys ! 

Oh and I set my stable fair tonight, laughing as i was thinking about this troll, so thanks Patch1234, you've put a smile on my face today 

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See post 3!


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## Twinkley Lights (14 November 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			We had a groom, Perkins, and Mummy wouldn't allow us to do any menial tasks such as you describe.
		
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Which in my view is the best approach.


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## TrasaM (14 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			They still do as do Exmoors, Darmoors ect those are not what im talking about.
		
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Owners of common native types need not worry  The great outdoors is , well great, for these types.


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## DipseyDeb (14 November 2012)

I can remember working on a military yard about 25 years ago, and the routine OP describes is pretty much what I can remember, however, I'm glad that times have changed, the back man was unheard of, don't remember a EDT or saddle fitters, bucking rearing etc was put down to 'bad behaviour' yes the yard was very disciplined but it doesn't mean it was right.  My horse is happy and relaxed (without ever being strapped, not once) the yard he's at is a very happy one where we all get on, and the YO is the best.


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## MerrySherryRider (14 November 2012)

How very odd. Gingerwitch receives abusive pm from Patch 1234  and Gingerwitch is banned but the sender isn't ? 

The world has gone mad. Some trolls are funny, some cause disruption and disharmony. I prefer the first kind. It takes wit and imagination. The second type should not be fed.


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## DragonSlayer (14 November 2012)

horserider said:



			How very odd. Gingerwitch receives abusive pm from Patch 1234  and Gingerwitch is banned but the sender isn't ? 

The world has gone mad. Some trolls are funny, some cause disruption and disharmony. I prefer the first kind. It takes wit and imagination. The second type should not be fed.
		
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It's a sod, isn't it?


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## ClobellsandBaubles (14 November 2012)

reaching for my second hand copy of 'keeping your horse outside' cerca 1980 it does say that one should not groom or bath a horse that lives out too vigorously as it removes natural oils from the coat... perhaps that's why the OP thought they were suffering. 

I do love sweeping generalisations and the good old days surely better technology, information and veterinary care are good things


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## Shysmum (14 November 2012)

GW has been banned  What on earth is going on on this forum ? trolls can just carry on behaving like they do ?


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## Equilibrium Ireland (14 November 2012)

Just temporary right?

Terri


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## patch1234 (14 November 2012)

Thank you for all the reples, all very interesting points of view.

Is it possible now  to use this forum in the way it is intended as there are some very experienced people on here with some very helpful advice on subjects that would be of great interest to me.  Im not interested in the game playing so I kindly ask that if any of my posts annoy you in any way dont reply to them and move on to something of interest to you. Thank you


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## Shysmum (14 November 2012)

^^^ god i hope you get banned soon, but then you'd reappear i spose.


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## Tnavas (14 November 2012)

Gingerwitch said:



			Susan Pyke here with her COMPETITON horse - not a HACKING horse...

he is only 4 and been broken in since yesterday and that only took half an hour.... he jumps 4ft could go higher with ease.....
we have done a full day hunting today and were just taking him to dressage on the way back - do you think it will matter about all the mud ? and were doing a x country clinic tomorrow - do you think he needs more work??
		
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Now Susan you just know what will  happen here - 

*JILL will get your pony*!


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## redriverrock (14 November 2012)

I dont post on here regularly but have noticed gingerwitch and think she has a very wicked sense of humour which I for one appreciate...surely this ban wont be permanent...


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## MerrySherryRider (14 November 2012)

Tnavas said:



			Now Susan you just know what will  happen here - 

*JILL will get your pony*! 

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I'll look after your pony while you're on holiday. 
Will feed it lots of carrots and it'll be a tubby little competition (not hacking) horse when you return.


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## WelshD (14 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			Thank you for all the reples, all very interesting points of view.

Is it possible now  to use this forum in the way it is intended as there are some very experienced people on here with some very helpful advice on subjects that would be of great interest to me.  Im not interested in the game playing so I kindly ask that if any of my posts annoy you in any way dont reply to them and move on to something of interest to you. Thank you
		
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For what its worth I dont think you are a troll

But you have rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way with your style of posting and your need to be a little boastful and superior. Not everyone has the time or money that you apparently have but that doesnt make them lesser mortals or their horses uncared for scruff bags.

I hope you do stick around and become a valued member of the forum, I hate to see people pushed out but you may want to learn to wind your neck in


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## TrasaM (14 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			Is it possible now  to use this forum in the way it is intended? 

Well, you really are taking things very seriously    thank you for posting such an entertaining thread 

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## alliersv1 (14 November 2012)

WelshD said:



			For what its worth I dont think you are a troll

But you have rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way with your style of posting and your need to be a little boastful and superior. Not everyone has the time or money that you apparently have but that doesnt make them lesser mortals or their horses uncared for scruff bags.

I hope you do stick around and become a valued member of the forum, I hate to see people pushed out but you may want to learn to wind your neck in
		
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Very well put, although I have to say, this thread has been most entertaining!


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## cptrayes (14 November 2012)

shysmum said:



			GW has been banned  What on earth is going on on this forum ? trolls can just carry on behaving like they do ?
		
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Trolls don't do anything illegal.

Gingerwitch breached copyright by publishing a PM.

None of you have any evidence that Patch is a troll, and from the breadth and number of your posts on other threads, Patch I don't think you are.

You need to get used to the "perkins" sidetracking though. I find it one of the best bits of the forum


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## WelshD (14 November 2012)

It certainly has been entertaining

If I could get my boss to still pay me yet be absent from work I would happily fall in to line with that daily routine!


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## Achinghips (14 November 2012)

What did Gingerwitch do to get herself banned? 

Fwiw, I think the OP has been given a very hard time on this thread, and her condescending attitude is displayed just as overtly by many others on this forum.  Double standards in that some appear to be forgiven far more easily .......


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## alliersv1 (14 November 2012)

Achinghips said:



			What did Gingerwitch do to get herself banned? 

Fwiw, I think the OP has been given a very hard time on this thread, and her condascending attitude is displayed just as overtly by many others on this forum.  Double standards in that some appear to be forgiven far more easily .......
		
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She publicly posted a PM from OP.


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## Achinghips (14 November 2012)

Is that against the rules?  I didn't know that!!!


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## Sussexbythesea (14 November 2012)

I've enjoyed this thread so thanks Patch1234 for allowing the fun creative side of Forum members to flourish - particularly FFionWinnie, Slightly Foxed and Littlelegs  

Shame about GW though  - hope she is back soon as she is having a hard enough time as it is.


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## millikins (14 November 2012)

If a troll is someone who posts something deliberately provocative, then that is what patch has done. The military regime appears to be her ideal yet previously she has stated that her horse is turned out from 8a.m-5p.m. And if I can only answer posts I agree with, then this forum won't offer much in the way of discussion will it?


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## Bojingles (14 November 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Trolls don't do anything illegal.

Gingerwitch breached copyright by publishing a PM.

None of you have any evidence that Patch is a troll, and from the breadth and number of your posts on other threads, Patch I don't think you are.

You need to get used to the "perkins" sidetracking though. I find it one of the best bits of the forum 

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I'm with Cptrayes on this except I'd go a bit further in that I didn't enjoy the Perkins sidetracking. Suspected troll? Ignore it, surely? This schoolgirl common room savagery is deeply unedifying. We all enjoy banter and we all hope to receive sensible advice; if you think someone's taking the p** do the grown-up thing and ignore them. Alternatively, take them at face value and actually offer some help.


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## Achinghips (14 November 2012)

Millikins said:



			If a troll is someone who posts something deliberately provocative, then that is what patch has done. The military regime appears to be her ideal yet previously she has stated that her horse is turned out from 8a.m-5p.m. And if I can only answer posts I agree with, then this forum won't offer much in the way of discussion will it?
		
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You see, I didn't see it like that at all - I took it as a fun toungue in cheek regime to raise some discussion, but then OP got slated and made fun of with the Perkins sidetracking ..... Now I don't knmow what to think, tbh


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## Achinghips (14 November 2012)

PlanetHacking said:



			I'm with Cptrayes on this except I'd go a bit further in that I didn't enjoy the Perkins sidetracking. Suspected troll? Ignore it, surely? This schoolgirl common room savagery is deeply unedifying. We all enjoy banter and we all hope to receive sensible advice; if you think someone's taking the p** do the grown-up thing and ignore them. Alternatively, take them at face value and actually offer some help.
		
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^^This is where I'm currently thinking ...


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## millikins (14 November 2012)

Surely though Achinghips, if it was meant to be fun and was taken too seriously, I'd have said so, wouldn't you?


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## Achinghips (14 November 2012)

Millikins said:



			Surely though Achinghips, if it was meant to be fun and was taken too seriously, I'd have said so, wouldn't you?
		
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Possibley, but no I hadnt bothered to contribute until I heard GW had been banned  ...


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## Sussexbythesea (14 November 2012)

PlanetHacking said:



			I'm with Cptrayes on this except I'd go a bit further in that I didn't enjoy the Perkins sidetracking. Suspected troll? Ignore it, surely? This schoolgirl common room savagery is deeply unedifying. We all enjoy banter and we all hope to receive sensible advice; if you think someone's taking the p** do the grown-up thing and ignore them. Alternatively, take them at face value and actually offer some help.
		
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But in this case no help was asked for, the subject was not serious and the banter was funny imo and not personal or savage.


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## Bojingles (14 November 2012)

sussexbythesea said:



			But in this case no help was asked for, the subject was not serious and the banter was funny imo and not personal or savage.
		
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Apologies; I'm talking in the wider context of this poster, not just this post. The 4-year-old at the trainer's yard etc. I think the "banter" followed on from the existing belief she was a troll. In that context it takes on an unkind sheen, in my book.


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## Achinghips (14 November 2012)

OP was given a hard time, with accusations and suspicions - this made it personal.


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## Renvers (14 November 2012)

sorry to hear all this japery has led to GW being banned, I enjoyed her posts. 

Can I ask is banned a ban for life or a trip to the sin bin?


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## Littlelegs (14 November 2012)

If op had posted a thread to discuss the difference in stable management over the years, or the merits of 24/7 turnout versus stabling, I would have responded in kind, & had an adult discussion. However I found the sweeping statements amusing, & ridiculous, so I responded in kind. Tbh, after my initial sarcastic post, followed  by my first Jill post, which were responses to op, later posts from me were just be because I found it amusing, not aimed at op at all. Same thing happens on lots of threads. Nothing personal, I'm a jolly good sport!


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## cptrayes (14 November 2012)

littlelegs said:



			If op had posted a thread to discuss the difference in stable management over the years, or the merits of 24/7 turnout versus stabling, I would have responded in kind, & had an adult discussion. However I found the sweeping statements amusing, & ridiculous, so I responded in kind. Tbh, after my initial sarcastic post, followed  by my first Jill post, which were responses to op, later posts from me were just be because I found it amusing, not aimed at op at all. Same thing happens on lots of threads. Nothing personal, I'm a jolly good sport!
		
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Agree with you littlelegs. The tone of the original post just begged to have the pee taken out of it. I spat my tea out when I read the first post about Perkins. Doesn't make her a troll, but the lighthearted ribbing was fairly well deserved.

Now, where did I put my anglegrinder, one of my horses needs its feet trimming.


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## Renvers (14 November 2012)

littlelegs said:



			If op had posted a thread to discuss the difference in stable management over the years, or the merits of 24/7 turnout versus stabling, I would have responded in kind, & had an adult discussion. However I found the sweeping statements amusing, & ridiculous, so I responded in kind. Tbh, after my initial sarcastic post, followed  by my first Jill post, which were responses to op, later posts from me were just be because I found it amusing, not aimed at op at all. Same thing happens on lots of threads. Nothing personal, I'm a jolly good sport!
		
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Very true - no one can post a thread on a public forum and be surprised if others' contributions change the shape or intent. Otherwise why invite others to comment on it? 

The thread started with a good question and some nostalgia and others added to it - and may I say - with entertaining and humourous posts


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## FfionWinnie (14 November 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Agree with you littlelegs. The tone of the original post just begged to have the pee taken out of it. I spat my tea out when I read the first post about Perkins. Doesn't make her a troll, but the lighthearted ribbing was fairly well deserved.

Now, where did I put my anglegrinder, one of my horses needs its feet trimming.
		
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Good, because it was intended to be funny not nasty. I have never been intentionally nasty to anyone in my life and I won't start now. 

Nor would I personally start a thread which boiled down to saying modern horse keeping methods were all rubbish and anyone that kept their horse out 24/7 was neglectful...


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## Achinghips (14 November 2012)

Jest and "light hearted ribbing" is ok and may be acceptable in one context, but in the context of suspicion and giving someone a hard time, they don't look as such!


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## patch1234 (14 November 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			Good, because it was intended to be funny not nasty. I have never been intentionally nasty to anyone in my life and I won't start now. 

Nor would I personally start a thread which boiled down to saying modern horse keeping methods were all rubbish and anyone that kept their horse out 24/7 was neglectful...
		
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Where in this thread have i ever said that modern methods are rubbish and when have  I ever said that people keeping horses out 24/7 are neglectful? You have misread the start of the thread.


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## TrasaM (14 November 2012)

Think of it more as parallel threads. There was the OP about the good ole days and the Perkins thread which I found very amusing and i did contribute to just as I also contributed to the more serious question posed about horse husbandry. No offence to the OP was intended and she could have joined in and diffused the situation instead of getting annoyed about it.


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## Littlelegs (14 November 2012)

Lol @ anglegrinder Cptrayes. I also find myself sniggering whenever pea gravel is mentioned, however relevant. It makes me think of 'berefoot farriers' stood in cat litter trays.


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## TrasaM (14 November 2012)

I know this is not all horse owners but there is definately a lack of discipline these days.  I know people work but there is still no exscuse for not putting the extra time into your horses.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like criticism to me


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## Littlelegs (14 November 2012)

'throw them out in all weathers so they don't have to do the stable'
'keep out 24/7 the horses covered in rainscald & mudfever'. 
That's not criticism?


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## Achinghips (14 November 2012)

The OP was not talking in absolutes and attributing to all, TrasaM and Littlelegs


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## Tnavas (14 November 2012)

Millikins said:



			If a troll is someone who posts something deliberately provocative, then that is what patch has done. The military regime appears to be her ideal yet previously she has stated that her horse is turned out from 8a.m-5p.m. And if I can only answer posts I agree with, then this forum won't offer much in the way of discussion will it?
		
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NO MILLIKINS she h as not stated that this is HER regime but one that many of us who have worked in big yards will totally understand as we have had to work like this. I could write out the timetable from the first yard I ever worked on in the early 70's. It's what we did.

So no she is not a troll just someone who has asked if any of us still work from a system like this. I personally think many yards still do as if you have no routine you really can't get work done properly. If you have your own horses and also work of course you won't have a routine like this unless you employ grooms to do the jubs.

This has been a great thread and some of us have taken the mick but otherwise its been an interesting thread


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## FfionWinnie (14 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



*Around 30/40 years ago horse owners were incredibly more disciplined* in their own management of horses.  I dont mean farm horses or similar but riding horses.

Our horses were *always groomed and tidy, I hardly ever heard of colic, laminitis or back problems.*

*If we could turn out we did*, more so in summer, *but they always came in and were tidied up*.

Mud fever was very rarely heard of as *we kept the legs clean and dry*.

Today I know people who turn up to yard at about 10am, *throw them out in all weathers* even if its a gale *so they dont have to do the stables.*

*Others I know keep out 24/7 horses are covered in mud fever, rain scald.*

I know this is not all horse owners *but there is definately a lack of discipline these days.*  I know people work but there is *still no exscuse for not putting the extra time into your horses*.
		
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patch1234 said:



			I do not understand why people think its ok to just clean a portion of your horse, if its stood there and youve got your kit out clean the whole body *for goodness sake its just laziness not to*.
		
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patch1234 said:



			Where in this thread have i ever said that modern methods are rubbish and when have  I ever said that people keeping horses out 24/7 are neglectful? You have misread the start of the thread.
		
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I didn't say you said it, I said your comments boiled down to that.


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## Achinghips (14 November 2012)

No they didn't You are extrapolating and assuming she is talking in complete absolutes all the time in order to confirm your assertions.

ETA: on reread - there are some absoutes there - but not as many as you attribute


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## Littlelegs (14 November 2012)

We'll have to agree to disagree achinghips if you found the ops post conducive to a thought provoking discussion. I certainly didn't.


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## Spring Feather (14 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			Around 30/40 years ago horse owners were incredibly more disciplined in their own management of horses.
		
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30/40 years ago some horse *owners* were more disciplined in their horse management and some were not.  *Grooms* have always been disciplined for the most part.  It was harder owning horses back then as we didn't have modern conveniences like we do today so yes we may have had to work harder but I don't think everyone was more disciplined per se.  What I have noticed though is the majority of horse owners in my area back then seemed quite a bit more knowledgeable than many horse owners of today.  Although thinking about it perhaps not, maybe it was just the horse folks I went around with, there wasn't any internet back then.


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## Achinghips (14 November 2012)

I didn't say that either, Littlelegs I said that was the spirit in which I thought the original post was proposed by the OP.  The subject matter wasn't interesting to me at all.


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## FfionWinnie (14 November 2012)

As with most things it's not what is said, it's how it's said. 

Look at the pony club OCD thread where everyone is having a nice time remembering the rules we learned in pony club and how we can't let go of the discipline we learned from pony club. 

If the op had said it differently it would no doubt have been taken differently, but I still think it was a post designed to provoke argument not discussion.

For instance

Title: The good old days!

First post: 

Does anyone think modern horse keeping should take some lessons from the old days?

I remember when I used to do x,y and z and we never heard of a, b, and c problems!

Second post:

Yes op I think in someways that's true, blah blah blah but remember how many horses had saddle sores, fistulous withers and other issues etc etc. 

Op posts again:

Yes I suppose you could be right about some of those things but I hate seeing horses out 24/7 with mud fever and rain scald and owners not turning up until 10am etc etc

Then that trouble maker Ffionwinnie chimes in

Op I quite agree with a lot of what you have said, there is a lack of basic knowlege these days.  On the other hand it's a completely different life style these days and on balance I think horses are on average better off since their owners are always getting saddle fitters, EDTs, physios and the like out to them. 

There's good and bad in all ages I am sure. 

(presses send and hope I don't look madder than usual)


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## HollyWoozle (14 November 2012)

Haven't read all replies as I've got this thread late on and there are a lot of replies. 

Our horses live out 24/7 and if I'm honest, have minimal attention and very minimal grooming. At this time of year I'm quite happy to ride with them muddy and dirty, provided that they are clean where it counts (under saddle, hooves picked out). 

I think it's up to the owner to manage their horses however they like, provided that the horses are happy and healthy. We've always kept ours this way and we've never had any with mud fever or rain scald. They are also relatively easy to handle. 

It's great to have a routine like the OP if that's what works for you and your horses and situation, but I know for a fact that my horses like to be out in all weathers and would hate to be stabled at all. They are happy (well, I haven't asked them lately but they seem to be!) and in good condition and that's what matters to me.


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## TheoryX1 (14 November 2012)

OP, I guess you must be around 50-60?  I am at the lower end of this age range and to be fair I helped out at a riding school when I was about 10/11 for a couple of years and we had this routine pretty much and I remember it well. I was taught to strap and groom properly etc.

However, to say that the discipline has gone out of hore care nowadays is a little bit harsh, dont you think.  For starters, most of us on here have to earn a living, and really what is wrong with leaving a bit of mud on bits of your horse that dont get covered in tack?  I work 60 hours a week, have a business to run, a home, family and an OH.  My horses are out as much as possible because they are happier that way.  Yes, I do have stables for them and yes we do rug up.  They have their tack, backs and teeth checked and done each year, plus vaccinations.  I call the vet at the merest hint of a sniffle in them, and they are very, very much loved.  If you were to say to my face that my standards of horse care were sloppy then I would have to disagree and horsewhip you soundly.

To say horse management standard have gone down is a little bit unfair - peoples lives have moved on since 1970/1980, havent they?  Nostalgia is a lovely thing and and I do look back fondly at leaving my favourite riding school pony clean in a felt stable rug and roller with a huge bed of hay and going home for tea (not piss taking and no, mater and pater did not employ Perkins).  Now I leave my muddy horse rugged up in his best Weatherbeeta in a stable with rubber matter and a bale of Auboise, and then go home and make the bloody tea!


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## Littlelegs (14 November 2012)

Ok achinghips, I'll rephrase. If you think the thread was posted in the spirit of reasonable discussion, rather than in a sweeping, my mind is already made up, criticizing way, as I saw it, we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## FfionWinnie (14 November 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Ok achinghips, I'll rephrase. If you think the thread was posted in the spirit of reasonable discussion, rather than in a sweeping, my mind is already made up, criticizing way, as I saw it, we'll have to agree to disagree.
		
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Drat that's what I was trying to say


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## dressedkez (14 November 2012)

Dear Perkins - if only when you were active, we could have let you have all those labour saving devices we have now? Instead you had to struggle with the old Jute Rugs, NZ rugs that were a bit of old canvas, and weighed a ton when they got wet.....clipper that you had to wind up by hand as you were using them (with your teeth) and don't forget all those lovely hours you spent grinding chaff and rolling oats by hand.......
Of course in your spare time you were brushing the underside of all those lovely linen lined saddles - using that wonderful glycerin saddle soap, that you would spit on to get a lather - and of course concocting some wonderful remedies for all equine ills, using Epsom Salts and Stockholm tar.
Those really were the days........
Oh don't forget those woolen day rugs you had to beat the hairs out on a weekly basis, and all that plaiting of straw for wisps to STRAP (see PC manual 4th edition 1968 - P22) 
Blimey - how would we cope with all that now? Sadly Perkins and his ilk  (though my fantasy groom was Dick - remember him from Flambards??) did quite wisely join a Trade Union, and refused to accept a shilling a week and as many eating apples as he could carry home from the Orchard - and we had to start doing it all ourselves - I don't think we do a bad job, mostly, considering - and complete feeds, nice new fabrics for rugs, better field management etc. etc. mean that we get the Perkin's gloss, often via buying in an alternative.
Though, if I added up all the extras I spend on my darlings - and if Perkins could nail on shoes too - then it might be cheaper in the long run to have him back.......


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## Silvermiyazawa (14 November 2012)

Wasn't Jill's mother a single parent and an author? I seem to remember they could afford buns for tea if she had sold a book.


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## dressedkez (14 November 2012)

Silvermiyazawa said:



			Wasn't Jill's mother a single parent and an author? I seem to remember they could afford buns for tea if she had sold a book.
		
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She was - her books were about 'soppy girls called Angelina....' 
Actually most of those books written in the mid to late 1960's were about horse keeping on a shoe string...not too many grooms appeared in the Pullein Thompson books - and when Jill had Plum (the perfect pony) she was very scathing of the lack of affection the pony got from the groom et al.


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## Littlelegs (14 November 2012)

That's right, I'm jills mummy, I write children's story books. Because we are so poor, we only have one servant!


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## millikins (14 November 2012)

And buns?


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## FfionWinnie (14 November 2012)

dressedkez said:



			Dear Perkins - if only when you were active, we could have let you have all those labour saving devices we have now? Instead you had to struggle with the old Jute Rugs, NZ rugs that were a bit of old canvas, and weighed a ton when they got wet.....clipper that you had to wind up by hand as you were using them (with your teeth) and don't forget all those lovely hours you spent grinding chaff and rolling oats by hand.......
Of course in your spare time you were brushing the underside of all those lovely linen lined saddles - using that wonderful glycerin saddle soap, that you would spit on to get a lather - and of course concocting some wonderful remedies for all equine ills, using Epsom Salts and Stockholm tar.
Those really were the days........
Oh don't forget those woolen day rugs you had to beat the hairs out on a weekly basis, and all that plaiting of straw for wisps to STRAP (see PC manual 4th edition 1968 - P22) 
Blimey - how would we cope with all that now? Sadly Perkins and his ilk  (though my fantasy groom was Dick - remember him from Flambards??) did quite wisely join a Trade Union, and refused to accept a shilling a week and as many eating apples as he could carry home from the Orchard - and we had to start doing it all ourselves - I don't think we do a bad job, mostly, considering - and complete feeds, nice new fabrics for rugs, better field management etc. etc. mean that we get the Perkin's gloss, often via buying in an alternative.
Though, if I added up all the extras I spend on my darlings - and if Perkins could nail on shoes too - then it might be cheaper in the long run to have him back.......
		
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Brilliant


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## Silvermiyazawa (14 November 2012)

Nowt wrong with buns! I bought a mag called Cupcakes. When I came to read it my husband had crossed it out and written BUNS.

I'm going away now as I have nothing constructive to add apart from to say I still do most things the way I was taught (not through PC but I suspect my mentor was old PC). At no time have I been able to live up to that regime though and my horses have appeared to be happy and healthy (with t/o every day).


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## dressedkez (14 November 2012)

Silvermiyazawa said:



			Nowt wrong with buns! I bought a mag called Cupcakes. When I came to read it my husband had crossed it out and written BUNS.

I'm going away now as I have nothing constructive to add apart from to say I still do most things the way I was taught (not through PC but I suspect my mentor was old PC). At no time have I been able to live up to that regime though and my horses have appeared to be happy and healthy (with t/o every day).
		
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Me too (re mentor) and many of the old ways, were good ways, but like everything else we move on - you only have to watch Downton Abbey to recognise that - and no, I am not about to embark on a how clean is your house discussion - and do you still use lemon juice / vinegar and newspaper to clean your windows, and iron the Daily Torygraph for the other half to read, once you have had a quick peek prior to him seeing it in the mornings.......??!!


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## Silvermiyazawa (14 November 2012)

dressedkez said:



			Me too (re mentor) and many of the old ways, were good ways, but like everything else we move on - you only have to watch Downton Abbey to recognise that - and no, I am not about to embark on a how clean is your house discussion - and do you still use lemon juice / vinegar and newspaper to clean your windows, and iron the Daily Torygraph for the other half to read, once you have had a quick peek prior to him seeing it in the mornings.......??!!
		
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God no. I remember thinking that mixes were only for VERY posh horse owners. Main Ring Red and Blue were all that was on offer I think. Very glad we don't have to boil linseed etc. However it was quite handy being able to go to the sawmill for a mahoosive bag of shavings for free. And rugs have changed beyond belief, although I still occasionally refer to T/O rugs as New Zealand rugs and feel VERY old when I get baffled looks (I'm not THAT old!!). Our old rubber reins were orange. (Sorry, I said I was going away!).


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## Tnavas (15 November 2012)

Yes Dressedkez I still use Vinegar and newspaper to clean the windows - it works really well and is a fraction of the price of the shop bought stuff 

Wasn't Jills dad an archiologist working away somewhere? - or maybe I'm getting muddled with one of the other characters. She may have been a war widow for all we know - many of these books were written not long after the WWII. Kids with ponies generally went to bording school and the ponies were turned out - on Heaven forbid GRASS! all term while they were away and didn't get laminitis. They were obsessed with not falling on the road and breaking their ponies knees. 

Feeding wasn't a problem as we fed the fresh basics - or not at all- which was the general case. When Pony Cubes arrived on the scene it was the beginning of the end. Last week a pony club instructor declared it was stupid teaching the kids to recognise the basic feeds.

Paddock management was every bit as good as it is today - nothing changed there! 

Worming was awful - you needed to give the horses a week off to allow their poor tums to settle after the stuff had ripped through them. 

We didn't have numnahs and saddle blankets to wash because we rarely ever used them. 

Our saddles seemed much easier to fit than they do now - but then they didn't have excessively deep seats so didn't need gussets in the panels - still find the close contact saddles the most easy to fit. 

I loved the jute rugs at night, with striped blankets and the wool rugs by day or a linen sheet in summer. 

Our tack was simple and to the poster that said we don't see fistulars any more - I only ever saw one growing up but many since - especially on those that are over rugged. 

Riders looked elegant in their tweed or black/navy jackets  
Now many look like hookers heading off to work with bling and colours hanging off every edge - as you can see I loath the current trend of overlarge ornate browbands and jackets where every edge has a colour trim and the shirt and tie is a mess of spots or stripes. 

We rode the the farrier and spend cold mornings around the big roaring forge. When done he'd slap a rich thick glorious smelling hoof oil on their feet. 

We hacked to shows with an old satchel on our backs with a brush and lunch in it. Now half the truck space is taken up with this that and the other. 

We rarely rode in an arena because only the very rich could afford them, our horses worked on grass and in shoes, were sound all the time - my big hack was the first horse I had that went lame and I had been working then for a couple of years. In fact I don't remember anything becoming lame except with an injury.

They were the good old days - there were people happy to help you olearn without charging for their knowledge.


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## JennyNZ (15 November 2012)

I don't remember Jill ever having a father.   I do remember when she first got Black Boy the only thing she had to ride in was her gym slip and I couldn't figure out why she just didn't wear jeans.


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## Ladyinred (15 November 2012)

Tnavas said:



We rode the the farrier and spend cold mornings around the big roaring forge. When done he'd slap a rich thick glorious smelling hoof oil on their feet. 

.
		
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Don't think Jill ever did anything THAT outrageously bad


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## maccachic (15 November 2012)

Tnavas said:



			Now many look like hookers heading off to work with bling and colours hanging off every edge -
		
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Haha brillant!!!


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## JennyNZ (15 November 2012)

Ladyinred said:



			Don't think Jill ever did anything THAT outrageously bad 

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Laughing and spitting coffee all over my keyboard .....


So another burning question from my child hood - when the Famous Five went on their jolly camping hols, were was the loo?  

'cos being in the colonies and all that, Dad always had to dig a long drop, but they never did.  Just asking


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## TrasaM (15 November 2012)

JennyNZ said:



			Laughing and spitting coffee all over my keyboard .....


So another burning question from my child hood - when the Famous Five went on their jolly camping hols, were was the loo?  

'cos being in the colonies and all that, Dad always had to dig a long drop, but they never did.  Just asking 

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Oh dear! One does not mention those sort of base things


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## Tnavas (15 November 2012)

We rode *TO *the farrier and spend cold mornings around the big roaring forge. When done he'd slap a rich thick glorious smelling hoof oil on their feet. 



Ladyinred said:



			Don't think Jill ever did anything THAT outrageously bad 

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Just spat tea over my key board - need to proof read better!


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## cptrayes (15 November 2012)

Tnavas said:



			They were the good old days - there were people happy to help you olearn without charging for their knowledge.
		
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I have some very bad memories though, of "old timers" keen to share their knowledge with me. First of all they looked down on me because I had an Arab (they were hunting folk) and then they looked down on me because I replaced him with a palomino. 

They came back from the last day of hunting at the end of March and no matter what the weather they chucked their fully clipped hunters out in the field and didn't bring them in again until preparing for the next season. 

Schooling was for wusses who couldn't jump.


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## Tnavas (15 November 2012)

Hi Have fond memories of Jim an ex cavalry officer who taught me so much. He always had time to discuss things and to help when I needed it. Sadly he died a year or so ago in his 90's.


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## Spyda (15 November 2012)

Silvermiyazawa said:



			God no. I remember thinking that mixes were only for VERY posh horse owners. Main Ring Red and Blue were all that was on offer I think. Very glad we don't have to boil linseed etc. However it was quite handy being able to go to the sawmill for a mahoosive bag of shavings for free. And rugs have changed beyond belief, although I still occasionally refer to T/O rugs as New Zealand rugs and feel VERY old when I get baffled looks (I'm not THAT old!!). Our old rubber reins were orange. (Sorry, I said I was going away!).
		
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Wow! Main Ring!!! What a reminder of the past  And yep, my step-dad used to get the _free_ bags of shavings from the local saw mill for me, too! And I know my poor old mum does not miss chiseling off the dried on linseed gloop from her stove top anymore. And all rugged horses and ponies could be clearly identified by the pair of bald patches on either side of their chest! Ahhhh, those were the days 

OP, your 'list' looks suspiciously similar to the one from my ancient (cira early 1970's) 'How to Keep Horses and Ponies' paperback!!! You don't happen to possess a copy too, do you?


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## dominobrown (15 November 2012)

Tnavas- Hilarious! 
Jill's _Mother_ was a war widow I think. Books were set in the late 40's. I love reading about all the 'old ways' and looking at pictures of old yards. I remember when I was in primary school we went on a school trip around Hopetoun house. We got a tour around some of the old 'undeveloped' part of the stables, with old brushes and stuff, just left from ages ago. It was fascinating. 
Anyone got any old pictures of yards etc?


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## armchair_rider (15 November 2012)

Silvermiyazawa said:



			Wasn't Jill's mother a single parent and an author? I seem to remember they could afford buns for tea if she had sold a book.
		
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That's the railway children.

Possibly Jill as well, I never read them 

And it was Noel in the Pullein-Thompson Noel and Henry books that had an archeaologist father. (Great books by the way and a couple have been republished quite recently - six ponies and one day event)

Personally I thought that the topic of the thread was entirely reasonable but that the OP's initial post didn't lend itself to a serious discussion. The trolling accusations were a bit harsh. But the Perkins stuff was hilarious. 


Clarissa dear do you actually have a pony or just the collection of legs you mentioned? (p8 I think)


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## ClobellsandBaubles (15 November 2012)

dominobrown said:



			Tnavas- Hilarious! 
Jill's _Mother_ was a war widow I think. Books were set in the late 40's. I love reading about all the 'old ways' and looking at pictures of old yards. I remember when I was in primary school we went on a school trip around Hopetoun house. We got a tour around some of the old 'undeveloped' part of the stables, with old brushes and stuff, just left from ages ago. It was fascinating. 
Anyone got any old pictures of yards etc?
		
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I tried to start a thread about this ages ago, I love looking at old fashioned yards  with the stalls and herringbone flooring but it got shunted to PG and no one replied


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## Littlelegs (15 November 2012)

I can't remember what happened to kills father. Railway children the mum wasn't a widow, the dad was falsely accused of fraud or similar, then returns at the end.


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## Littlelegs (15 November 2012)

Ps Pmsl at 'we rode the farrier'. Classic!


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## Doogal (15 November 2012)

If I remember rightly, Jill's father went to Africa for a few months, Jill's mother received a cable saying he had contracted a fever but they never heard from him again 

Pretty traumatic you'd think, but you'd never know it as he doesn't get a mention after that!


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## dominobrown (15 November 2012)

Cloball said:



			I tried to start a thread about this ages ago, I love looking at old fashioned yards  with the stalls and herringbone flooring but it got shunted to PG and no one replied 

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Arrghh dam. I love seeing the layout and the equipment they used. I am addicted to the videos on horse hero of the Badminton Yard Tour


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## Cadfael&Coffee (15 November 2012)

Tnavas said:



			Worming was awful - you needed to give the horses a week off to allow their poor tums to settle after the stuff had ripped through them. 

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i always wondered why my mum gives the horses a day or two after worming before working them- i still leave them for a day (do it just as their normal day off and work around it), just in case they feel peaky, but I get looked at like i'm crazy if i discuss it with people! 

this is obviously where the habit stems from 

ps there's nothing wrong with riding the farrier, as long as they are at least fairly attractive (rules out 95% of them lol)


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## dominobrown (15 November 2012)

My neighbour (who is in his 80's) wormed by giving them Stockholm tar on a spoon down their throats which the worms to stick too!


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## Spyda (15 November 2012)

dominobrown said:



			My neighbour (who is in his 80's) wormed by giving them Stockholm tar on a spoon down their throats which the worms to stick too!
		
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## ClobellsandBaubles (15 November 2012)

Cadfael&Coffee said:



			i always wondered why my mum gives the horses a day or two after worming before working them- i still leave them for a day (do it just as their normal day off and work around it), just in case they feel peaky, but I get looked at like i'm crazy if i discuss it with people! 

this is obviously where the habit stems from 

ps there's nothing wrong with riding the farrier, as long as they are at least fairly attractive (rules out 95% of them lol)  

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The yard I worked on it seemed like a right of passage ... oh and the vet 

I may have a habit of looking at french chateaus for sale just to see if they have pictures the original stable blocks so many of the stables of the old houses here have been turned int cafes I think it's sad


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## armchair_rider (15 November 2012)

littlelegs said:



			I can't remember what happened to kills father. Railway children the mum wasn't a widow, the dad was falsely accused of fraud or similar, then returns at the end.
		
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True. But in the meantime they only had buns when mother sold a story.
Also the station porter was called Perks. Which is perilously close to Perkins. Which proves something.


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## tallyho! (15 November 2012)

I still think England is the WORST place in the world to keep horses or ponies no matter what regime you have or whether or not Perkins is there to provide lashings of ginger beer.

(Sulking as I slipped and sat in some cold mud yesterday and there was no one to help me up so I had to plonk my hands down into a load of cow pats to haul myself up and pull my boots out)


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## dominobrown (15 November 2012)

tallyho! said:



			I still think England is the WORST place in the world to keep horses or ponies no matter what regime you have or whether or not Perkins is there to provide lashings of ginger beer.

(Sulking as I slipped and sat in some cold mud yesterday and there was no one to help me up so I had to plonk my hands down into a load of cow pats to haul myself up and pull my boots out)
		
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Its the mud!!! 

p.s I don't recommend stuffing Stockholm tar down your horse's throat to worm, I am not sure how effective it is! Or how good it is for the horse.


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## Fellewell (15 November 2012)

Doogal said:



			If I remember rightly, Jill's father went to Africa for a few months, Jill's mother received a cable saying he had contracted a fever but they never heard from him again 

Pretty traumatic you'd think, but you'd never know it as he doesn't get a mention after that!
		
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I seem to remember he ran off with someone from the women's institute because there was never anyone home to fetch his slippers or cook dinner.

They were all too busy religiously cleaning tack and filling haynets made from baling twine.


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## Tnavas (15 November 2012)

*To worm for Bots* after fasting for 24 hours
1
Creolin          2 drachms
Turpentine     1½ ounces
Linseed Oil to 1 pint

2
Benzene        1 ounce
Tincture of Iodine ½ ounnce
Linseed Oil to 1 pint

3
Creosote       1 drachm
Chloroform     2 drachms
Turpentine     1½ ounces
Linseed Oil to 1 pint

*To worm for Tapeworm* after 24 - 36 hours fasting
1
Turpentine   60ml
Male Fern Extract  4ml
Linseed Oil to 1 pint

2
Kamala (a lotus plant)  30 grammes
or Freshly ground areca (betel) nut  30 to 45 grams

*To worm for Roundworm*
Piperazine    10 grammes per 100lbs
Phenothiazine may be toxic to some horses
Given in food with mollases

*To worm for Thread worms*
Piperazine adipate   10 grammes per 100lbs
Along with 
Application of mercuric or carbolic ointment around the anus
A saline enema is also suggested

Some lovely notes
Spraying dung patches in pasture with Jeyes Fluid for removal of redworm
Obviously this will involve a good deal of labour; but in not a few places it has been carried out most efficiently by a conscientious old groom or stable hand who is not fit for hard work, but who is interested enough to be happy 'mooching' about the patures among the horses with his barrow and shovel for most of the day. 

All the worms which are observed to come away from the horse, whether naturally or by the influence of medicine, should be thrown into a fire or into boiling water, so as to cut short their power of evil.

_Veterinary Notes for Horse Owners First Edition 1877 by Captain M Horace Hayes FRCVS_


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## Cadfael&Coffee (15 November 2012)

yes, that would explain an awful lot! thanks for that- very interesting


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## frozzy (15 November 2012)

On a visit to the Mets mounted division museum I saw a daily diary for the vets attention and the amount of sore back entries were quadruple the other entries. So sore backs were just as common in the working animals back in time.
Worming? A plug of tobacco shoved over the throat took care of that!


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## Fairytale (15 November 2012)

littlelegs said:



			I can't remember what happened to* kills *father.
		
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Maybe that explains what happened to Jill's father.......I don't remember him ever being mentioned....but then again, I don't remember Ann having a father either, and the ones who had a father never seemed to have a mother.... 

And I've completely forgotten what the OP was about!


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## tallyho! (15 November 2012)

Single parents? Not working? No wonder they can afford a pony........ Oh hang on, is that just modern times.....


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## Patterdale (15 November 2012)

Ann had a father because he had a horse box which he let them use once. 
I remember thinking why does he have a horse box and why do they still hack everywhere? And if he doesn't like using the horse box, then why have it?


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## Fairytale (15 November 2012)

Are you sure P?  I though there was a chap called Martin who lived in a wheelchair who maybe had a horsebox...... mind you, I read these books like nearly 50 years ago and the memory aint quite what it was.....


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## JFTDWS (15 November 2012)

JennyNZ said:



			Laughing and spitting coffee all over my keyboard .....


So another burning question from my child hood - when the Famous Five went on their jolly camping hols, were was the loo?  

'cos being in the colonies and all that, Dad always had to dig a long drop, but they never did.  Just asking 

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Standard rough camping rules, one presumes.  Never any discussion of such arrangements.  I was always envious that none of them ever seemed to need the loo at awkward moments - never locked in a room/cave/dungeon crossing their legs desperately to avoid peeing in front of their cousins/brothers/sister, always ready to rush off in search of mystery at a moment's notice without popping "into the woods" first.

Bitter, I am.


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## Patterdale (15 November 2012)

Yep he definitely did. It was mentioned in one book where they went to a show in it and then never again. 

I loved the Jill books so much!

Even though I could never comprehend how in the first book she had just completely failed to notice that she had a stable at the bottom of the garden....


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## dominobrown (15 November 2012)

Tnavas said:



*To worm for Bots* after fasting for 24 hours
3
Creosote       1 drachm
Chloroform     2 drachms
Turpentine     1½ ounces
Linseed Oil to 1 pint

_Veterinary Notes for Horse Owners First Edition 1877 by Captain M Horace Hayes FRCVS_

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Aaah the good old days.... when you starved your horse then fed it Chloroform!


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## Sugarplum Furry (15 November 2012)

I always wondered if Jill's mother would end up marrying Martin....


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## DragonSlayer (15 November 2012)

gala said:



			I always wondered if Jill's mother would end up marrying Martin....
		
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I wondered that! Afterall, he was not that old, about Mummy's age....


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## Brightbay (15 November 2012)

armchair_rider said:



			That's the railway children.

Possibly Jill as well, I never read them 

And it was Noel in the Pullein-Thompson Noel and Henry books that had an archeaologist father. (Great books by the way and a couple have been republished quite recently - six ponies and one day event)

Personally I thought that the topic of the thread was entirely reasonable but that the OP's initial post didn't lend itself to a serious discussion. The trolling accusations were a bit harsh. But the Perkins stuff was hilarious. 


Clarissa dear do you actually have a pony or just the collection of legs you mentioned? (p8 I think)
		
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Can't believe I'm still reading this thread . Yes, Clarissa Dandleby here again.  All I can say is, don't get me started on my collection of horse legs - I have tramatised a largeish group of local tradesmen, and now have a reputation locally as either a witch or a member of the mafia.

I do also have a complete horse, for the record (with no mud on his legs ).




			horse box which he let them use once. 
I remember thinking why does he have a horse box and why do they still hack everywhere? And if he doesn't like using the horse box, then why have it
		
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Petrol rationing, of course ;-)

I also now remember the discovery of the stable, and all that scrubbing and decobwebbing.  I am SURE I would notice a stable at the bottom of my garden (have a piggery instead, but I am sure, given time, I will be able to make it resemble a stable.  With whitewash, and lashings of ginger beer.


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## Doogal (15 November 2012)

DragonSlayer said:



			I wondered that! Afterall, he was not that old, about Mummy's age.... 

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Not that ancient, about 35... 

I also wondered that, but he disappears from the series doesn't he?


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## FfionWinnie (15 November 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ferguson

"In the first book in the series, Jill's Gymkhana, Jill's father has recently died, and she moves with her mother to a small cottage near the fictional village of Chatton. Her mother hopes to support them both as a children's author (shades of E. Nesbit's classic The Railway Children). Jill is at first a social outcast in "horsy" Chatton because she doesn't own a pony and can't ride. When her mother's stories finally begin to sell, however, the first thing she buys is a pony for her daughter. With hard work and the expert assistance of Martin Lowe, a wheelchair-using former Royal Air Force pilot, Jill becomes a star of Chatton equitation."

I always wanted to live in Chatton!!


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## FfionWinnie (15 November 2012)

One of the first rosettes I received had "sponsored by main ring from rumenco" on it


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## DragonSlayer (15 November 2012)

Doogal said:



			Not that ancient, about 35... 

I also wondered that, but he disappears from the series doesn't he?
		
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I expect the poor devil died from the over-adminstrations of his parents who felt sorry for him...


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## dressedkez (15 November 2012)

If this post does not make the top 3 Forum posts mentioned in H&H, then the whole thing is a swizz......I have loved this thread, and it has made me laugh two nights in a row - when there is not much happening at the moment, that is fun (work related - not horse, though don't get me talking about the git who is being difficult to be shod at the moment - maybe the subject of a separate post, or maybe not........!)
Perkins / pony books / outrage at the general principles of whether OP is right or wrong in relation to standards today compared to yesterday.
Fantastic - well done everyone for thier wonderful contributions - it is this type of post that makes H&H Forum fun, and entertaining - with a few good nuggets of advice picked up along the way!


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## armchair_rider (15 November 2012)

I have a horse book from 1911 which has an entire chapter devoted to giving alcohol to your horse.

Sugegstion for worming 1/2 pint linseed oil, 2 tablespoons turps 1 tablespoon camphor


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## Sussexbythesea (15 November 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Single parents? Not working? No wonder they can afford a pony........ Oh hang on, is that just modern times..... 

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## Doris68 (15 November 2012)

Now if you want to go back....I have the full set (9 volumes) of "The Horse, its Treatment in Health & Disease" by Prof. Wortley-Axe - they belonged to my Grandad who was an old horseman.  There's a lot of stuff in there that would make you cringe, but also a lot that is very relevant even today.  We all live and learn...!


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## Tnavas (16 November 2012)

Doris68 said:



			Now if you want to go back....I have the full set (9 volumes) of "The Horse, its Treatment in Health & Disease" by Prof. Wortley-Axe - they belonged to my Grandad who was an old horseman.  There's a lot of stuff in there that would make you cringe, but also a lot that is very relevant even today.  We all live and learn...!
		
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Doris - are they bound in green and contain the most amazing drawings you could ever imagine?

If so they are wonderful - I would kill to get hold of those books. My old boss has a set - and I am plucking up the courage to ask him if I can buy them from him.

The drawings of the disections are so detailed - nothing like you ever see these days.


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## Windwood (16 November 2012)

Didn't Jill's family have a housekeeper called Mrs Crosby who they referred to as NRTB - no relation to Bing ?


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## Doris68 (16 November 2012)

Tnavas said:



			Doris - are they bound in green and contain the most amazing drawings you could ever imagine?

If so they are wonderful - I would kill to get hold of those books. My old boss has a set - and I am plucking up the courage to ask him if I can buy them from him.

The drawings of the disections are so detailed - nothing like you ever see these days.
		
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Yes, Tnavas, those are the books, bound in green with wonderful drawings and coloured prints of horses.  You're a bit too far away, or else you could borrow them!  I'm very lucky to have them.  I hope you make a successful bid to buy them from your old boss..!!

Doris


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## zigzag (19 February 2013)

What is a gymslip?


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## Tnavas (19 February 2013)

zigzag said:



			What is a gymslip?
		
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A very unflattering school uniform


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