# Horse and rider with extreme issues...



## palo1 (1 March 2021)

I am witness to a very unhappy horse and rider partnership atm. Owner has bought a very smart ISH for drag hunting, hacking and general non-competitive riding.  Horse was in the 5 figure sum bracket; lovely conformation, well bred etc etc Horse is super smart looking, 9 yo and had a successful 5 stage vetting with a few minor notes; more on this later.  Sale was about 18 months ago. Prior to this the horse had several owners on his passport - none for longer than about a year.   Horse has every comfort and has also been scoped and treated for gastric ulcers since purchase   Ulcers were considered to be the root of several problems but in spite of several clear scopes and several thousands on various vet, dental and saddle checks/changes of tack things are no better.  I think the only thing he hasn't had is scans of his suspensories/legs and equine vets feel he is actually supremely sound in his movement (when they can get him to actually move at all) ! I think that several thousand pounds have been spent on real veterinary checks and nothing at all has been found to be an issue.  The horse has actually done hardly any work in his life it transpires because of his issues though the ulcers clearly would have had an impact on him; for how long, who knows?  He seems perfectly normal in the field and leads most places ok.  He is pretty relaxed about going out to lessons etc though he is not especially keen on that.  He will, however, work through a 45 minute flatwork and jumping lesson without horrible planting, napping.  He is 'ok' out drag hunting actually though the owner has taken that very steadily due to ulcers and generally wanting to look after him and not make anything worse.  He will nap a bit but it is much more manageable in that situation and owner just tends to go with the flow.  He won't go off on his own but he will always leave the field to go home!  He loves going home...

The owner has improved some things; like loading which was initially an issue but really serious problems still continue and appear to be worsening   This horse is the worst napper I have ever come across.  It has taken his rider 18 months to achieve a solo hack of 2 miles (almost in every sense!!).  The horse will stop and become utterly wooden up to 20 times on this ride though he will now do a basic block with only a few minor pauses....He is not much better, if better at all in company - other horses neither interest him nor inspire him to keep going.  He is happy to see a hacking companion move away and literally nothing makes a difference if he has decided to plant though he will ALWAYS and very reliably head home. That is the only time he is reasonably behaved.

Anything new at all, any deviation of route, route he hasn't travelled for a while he will plant and either reverse (not known to rear) or become utterly wooden; no circling possible, just nothing!! Owner has tried strong tactics - using a whip as well as positive and gentle encouragement.  Usually the owner will get off and lead past the moment of napping but sometimes this horse won't even consent to lead past.  He will not take the lead and will stop all the time to look at puddles, piles of horse poo, the view - goodness knows what!!  He has the slowest walk ever, is utterly unmotivated but never spooks as such.  However, on open ground - if and once he has consented to get there, he becomes really unpredictable; often squealing, bucking and becoming very strong.  He is frightening his rider now as he appears to be truly unable to take any real instruction from her; both forwards generally and in terms of his ridden manners. 

His poor owner is utterly downhearted now.  She wants him to have a home for life and was very invested emotionally (as well as financially) in his purchase but feels absolutely out of her depth now with his issues.  She does NOT want to sell or move him on but wants to resolve the issues so that she can at least hack out in company and enjoy a safe trot and canter in a field/fun ride etc. 

Money is not really an issue but vets, dentists and saddle fitter are genuinely confident that physical issues are not the problem.  This is probably this lady's last riding horse - it is currently devastating her confidence and enjoyment of horses which essentially are central to her lifestyle. 

Has anyone got any suggestions as to how to deal with this?  I would sell him, with full disclosure at a significant financial loss and be sad but relieved but I don't think that course of action is open at the moment.


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## ihatework (1 March 2021)

Life is too short. Confidence is too fragile. I had one of these once when I was younger and I know enough now that you can’t make them all.

Unless there is a very clear job that he enjoys (in which case I’d lian him for that), then I’d retire him to the field and get a horse more suited to my needs.

Sometimes the best thing for the horse is knowing when to quit


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## RachelFerd (1 March 2021)

That sounds utterly frustrating given that it seems like all the care and professional attention is being attended to thoroughly by your description. 

I don't think you could make a sale with full disclosure to anyone other than someone in the dodgy dealing space - so that wouldn't be an option for me, although could understand why others would choose it. 

For me I would insist on nerve blocks and a poor performance work up at vets, just to be able to rule out hind suspensory issues.

Then, it's a classic situation in which a 'problem horse' specialist - pref with some serious understanding of equine behaviour science to step in and work through the problem. I don't have a specific recommendation for who that might be though!


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## Pearlsasinger (1 March 2021)

I wouldn't think it ethical to sell him on, tbh.  There is obviously a problem that the horse is trying to tell his owner about but this problem is well hidden.  Do you know what he is fed on?  If he were my horse, I would cut his feed right back to hay/grass only and monitor his behaviour for at least a month.  I might also suspect hindgut ulcers, which I believe are very difficult to detect.  If all else fails, I would retire/pts this horse and buy another which is more suited to the work required.  Having been in a similar position to the owner, I sympathise.  Our problem was eventually found to be feed related.


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## Cortez (1 March 2021)

Has anybody got in a professional trainer?


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I wouldn't think it ethical to sell him on, tbh.  There is obviously a problem that the horse is trying to tell his owner about but this problem is well hidden.  Do you know what he is fed on?  If he were my horse, I would cut his feed right back to hay/grass only and monitor his behaviour for at least a month.  I might also suspect hindgut ulcers, which I believe are very difficult to detect.  If all else fails, I would retire/pts this horse and buy another which is more suited to the work required.  Having been in a similar position to the owner, I sympathise.  Our problem was eventually found to be feed related.
		
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He has been tried on hay only and now has an ulcer friendly supplement added to chaff.  He is never without forage and never fed hard food.  His condition is just about perfect I would say.   There clearly is a problem and it may well be physical; he has had scans of his back and hocks but not suspensories I don't think - that would be potentially a good thing though possibly his owner is exhausted by continual veterinary investigations at this point.  I agree that it may be difficult to sell him though a young male rider has ridden him and found a way to get him to work; by absolute persistence and utter insistence on working under saddle with acceptable manners before he was allowed home.  Sadly his owner doesn't want to or doesn't feel able to ride that strongly and so doesn't feel that is the best way forward.


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

Cortez said:



			Has anybody got in a professional trainer?
		
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His owner has been taking him for professional training (her riding) and a trainer has taken him hunting on several occasions.  The trainer who hunted him offered a reasonable sum for him too.  I understand that they had a couple of 'conversations' (horse and hunting trainer) but of course hunting this horse is actually one of the easier activities...I would say that a decent trainer has not had chance to experience the full gamut of this horse's habits!  For me, I wonder if he had issues at foaling - he is, in many ways a very strange beast.


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## Cortez (1 March 2021)

palo1 said:



			He has been tried on hay only and now has an ulcer friendly supplement added to chaff.  He is never without forage and never fed hard food.  His condition is just about perfect I would say.   There clearly is a problem and it may well be physical; he has had scans of his back and hocks but not suspensories I don't think - that would be potentially a good thing though possibly his owner is exhausted by continual veterinary investigations at this point.  I agree that it may be difficult to sell him though a young male rider has ridden him and found a way to get him to work; by absolute persistence and utter insistence on working under saddle with acceptable manners before he was allowed home.  Sadly his owner doesn't want to or doesn't feel able to ride that strongly and so doesn't feel that is the best way forward.
		
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So a pro has had success, but the owner is not capable of riding him. Sell him to a more suitable home.


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

Cortez said:



			So a pro has had success, but the owner is not capable of riding him. Sell him to a more suitable home.
		
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I think so.  I believe, with horse and rider's best interests at heart that he should go to a hunting home where he may be ridden in a more 'black and white' manner and would only really be asked to do the one job that he finds tolerable.  That may not work well in all honesty as he is not suitable as a hunt staff horse and he may be appallingly difficult to deal with for someone less tolerant and patient. He bites too though that could and definately should be dealt with as a matter of urgent priority.  He once turned to me whilst I was standing chatting next to my friend (me riding also) and tried removing my kneecap with his teeth.  I have no idea why or what prompted this after several minutes of standing perfectly nicely...I don't stand so close to him any more though lol!!   The problem with the pro hunting him was that hunting is really the thing that he finds easiest - it doesn't quite reveal the extent of his issues!!

ETA - the young male rider who got him working is not a pro (in fact is my son who is full of joy for an awkward large horse).  It is not something that I think could work on a regular basis (and we certainly don't want the blooming horse!!) But it does suggest that a different rider might have more luck...


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## PapaverFollis (1 March 2021)

If I was this lady and someone wanted the horse to hunt and the horse would do that job for that person then I would potentially sell to that person and move on.  I might loan to the hunting home so that he didn't then get sold on and lost if that's what I preferred.  Would depend on the horse.

Horses are too big, too expensive,  too potentially dangerous to be able to hold on to sentimentality all the time. Sometimes it just doesn't work.


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

I so wish that the owner of this horse could see this and either pass him to someone that wants him via sale or loan, pts or retired to the field though he is young and also a bit of a pain to deal with in that setting!!  However, at this point she seems intent on finding a compromise so that she can hang on in there with him and keep trying to ride him in a very limited way.  She has already been advised by others to sell/move him on.  I fear that she is in a downward spiral that will be entirely unrewarding and potentially very dangerous with this horse.  At the moment she is basically restricted to walk and trot and horse is clearly fit and on occasion full of life...It is horrible for both and I am full of foreboding about the future of this partnership


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## ycbm (1 March 2021)

Has anyone considered PSSM? With everything else ruled out,  that or a deeply hidden physical issue would top my list. 

I've seen and heard of  plenty of horses in pain persuaded to work by strong riders and unwittingly probably done it myself to at least one horse in the  past,  so I don't necessarily think the fact that the Pro could ride him is a good indicator. I'd go more on the ownership record,  the horse has been passed from one home to another. 
.


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## PapaverFollis (1 March 2021)

It sounds really sad, palo, but I'm not sure that there's a lot you can do. It obviously depends on your relationship with the lady too.

A test for PSSM1 as ycbm suggests or a vitamin E trial are probably worth doing even if the lady has reached veterinary intervention burnout.  Relatively easy and cheap to check.


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## P.forpony (1 March 2021)

I was just about to suggest pssm too.
As there seems to have been quite a comprehensive investigation of all other potential issues, this would be my next thought.
A Vit E trial is very cheap and easy to do and results are obvious pretty quickly. Or go the whole hog with bloods (CK and AST) hair samples and biopsies if money is no object.


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			Has anyone considered PSSM? With everything else ruled out,  that or a deeply hidden physical issue would top my list.

I've seen and heard of  plenty of horses in pain persuaded to work by strong riders and unwittingly probably done it myself to at least one horse in the  past,  so I don't necessarily think the fact that the Pro could ride him is a good indicator. I'd go more on the ownership record,  the horse has been passed from one home to another.
.
		
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The horse has been tested negative for PSSM and not responded to a Vit E trial though to my mind that wasn't taken seriously by the vet and the owner probably didn't actually give a high enough dose to clarify that. The owner is very, very 'establishment' and reluctant to trial even easy things in all honesty; she feels that the vet will have a clear cut answer and process which is preferable to informed experimentation which is fair enough I guess.  But I agree that this is a possibility.


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## oldie48 (1 March 2021)

If she is prepared to spend the money I'd have a performance vet have a look at him. I don't know where she is in the country but I could recommend someone who is completely trustworthy and does travel quite extensively. I think if she knows there is or isn't something physical going on, it might be easier for her to make a decision.


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			It sounds really sad, palo, but I'm not sure that there's a lot you can do. It obviously depends on your relationship with the lady too.

A test for PSSM1 as ycbm suggests or a vitamin E trial are probably worth doing even if the lady has reached veterinary intervention burnout.  Relatively easy and cheap to check.
		
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Thank you.  Yes it is horribly sad, frustrating and rather frightening to watch how badly things are going.  This lady is a very good friend of mine - I love her dearly and do not want her hurt.  At the same time I hate seeing such an unhappy, unwilling horse.  Thankfully, with our own horses keeping us busy and no emotional investment in my friend's horse the only real impact on me is the consequence of her spiralling confidence and joie de vivre which is having an effect on me.  I am able to ride and enjoy my horses in lots of other ways and my older horse certainly is not affected by anything that my friend's horse does which means we can still ride together - albeit with her in pieces   My young horse will have other, more helpful hacking companions too.  It is just something that I wonder if other people might have other ideas about what could be done.  To my way of thinking a high dose of Vit E for a few weeks/months would be easy, cheap etc and then I would be looking to sell with full disclosure to the already interested party or to PTS.   I know buying a nice horse can be a minefield but that is no reason to hang on to an absolutely unsuitable one!!


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

oldie48 said:



			If she is prepared to spend the money I'd have a performance vet have a look at him. I don't know where she is in the country but I could recommend someone who is completely trustworthy and does travel quite extensively. I think if she knows there is or isn't something physical going on, it might be easier for her to make a decision.
		
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I think that would be really useful but I strongly suspect that the specialist equine vet/hospital the horse has already been seen by on multiple occasions would be viewed as 'good enough' even though a different vet might have a usefully different view; or even a concurrent one!!  As so much money has already been spent I can understand the reluctance to shell out more on a horse that so many vets/investigations have found to be essentially sound and healthy.


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## Nicnac (1 March 2021)

Gosh she should sell him to a more suitable home - he's never going to be what she wants.  A bit like an alcoholic, you've got to let her get to rock bottom (and hope she doesn't get hurt) and let her make the decision herself as frustrating as it is for you to watch.  Just be there for her but step away as sounds like she won't take others advice onboard.


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## milliepops (1 March 2021)

I agree with lots of the above
the behaviour sounds oh-so-familiar to my own superstar/horrid little goblin and so my personal POV  from my experiences would be

as above attempt to get one of the chiro vets or other performance specialist as a one-off exercise to just tick that box
and then I'd go off piste and try and find a pro who is a bit more horse-centric, what you might call natural horsemanship but I wouldn't want a branded practitioner of a set type, I would want someone who really can read a horse properly, spend as long as it takes to learn how to speak to this one,  and find out what the horse is good at or wants to do.
and then only try and do that with it.  if that isn't what the owner wanted, then a very careful loan may work.

Mine was supposed to be a do-up-and-sell riding club prospect, I was going to take her cubbing, do some clear round SJ, a fun ride and dressage test and sell to someone wanting a small allrounder.
She did not want to do that, not one bit, she won't jump, she won't hack, she doesn't care what her hacking companion does as she's not interested.... the ONLY thing she has ever been happy to do is prance about in an arena learning fancy tricks. And that is how I have ended up attempting to train a 14hh furious welsh cob at GP.


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## oldie48 (1 March 2021)

palo1 said:



			I think that would be really useful but I strongly suspect that the specialist equine vet/hospital the horse has already been seen by on multiple occasions would be viewed as 'good enough' even though a different vet might have a usefully different view; or even a concurrent one!!  As so much money has already been spent I can understand the reluctance to shell out more on a horse that so many vets/investigations have found to be essentially sound and healthy.
		
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I have huge confidence in my local equine hospital, they have referrals from all over the country but I am now a total convert to using a performance vet who does nothing else than look at horses to find out why they are not performing as expected. A horse I know who has had behavioural issues for a long time, has had £Ks spent in vet fees and lots of time off and was currently being treated for hoof issues with very expensive front shoes was seen by the vet I would recommend. He saw the horse trot up and on the lunge, did some nerve blocking and gave a cautionary diagnosis which he then confirmed with scans. Shoes are now off as not required and the horse is being rested with a very guarded prognosis for the future. The owner's next step with her current vets (who are my vets) was an MRI which is hugely expensive! I feel he looks for the primary cause of a problem whereas many vets focus on the symptoms and we all know how well horses can compensate, especially athletic horses with good conformation. I now think of them as those ballet dancers who continue dancing beautifully even with injuries and if he's OK to drag hunt I wonder if your friend's horse has the added adrenaline rush that keeps him on side.


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## conniegirl (1 March 2021)

palo1 said:



			I think the only thing he hasn't had is scans of his suspensories/legs and equine vets feel he is actually supremely sound in his movement
		
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First thing i would do is get a full set of scans of his legs. I’d also get a bone scan done.

I had a pony who had issues under saddle, one of the top vet hospitals in the country had him in for a full work up and declared him as one of the soundest ponies they had seen in a while. 
I insisted on a bone scan as the behaviour just wasn’t right for that pony. 
He had fractured his pelvis in 3 places and yes he was sound, until you asked him to use his bum properly at which point he was in pain and he freaked out so badly that no one could sit him.


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## southerncomfort (1 March 2021)

Could she get in someone like Richard Maxwell to have a look?


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## milliepops (1 March 2021)

milliepops said:



			I agree with lots of the above
the behaviour sounds oh-so-familiar to my own superstar/horrid little goblin and so my personal POV  from my experiences would be

as above attempt to get one of the chiro vets or other performance specialist as a one-off exercise to just tick that box
and then I'd go off piste and try and find a pro who is a bit more horse-centric, what you might call natural horsemanship but I wouldn't want a branded practitioner of a set type, I would want someone who really can read a horse properly, spend as long as it takes to learn how to speak to this one,  and find out what the horse is good at or wants to do.
and then only try and do that with it.  if that isn't what the owner wanted, then a very careful loan may work.

Mine was supposed to be a do-up-and-sell riding club prospect, I was going to take her cubbing, do some clear round SJ, a fun ride and dressage test and sell to someone wanting a small allrounder.
She did not want to do that, not one bit, she won't jump, she won't hack, she doesn't care what her hacking companion does as she's not interested.... the ONLY thing she has ever been happy to do is prance about in an arena learning fancy tricks. And that is how I have ended up attempting to train a 14hh furious welsh cob at GP.
		
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to all this, i would add, even if you find a thing that the horse agrees to do, it will probably always be a tricky character. When not plagued by hormonal trouble mine really does appear to enjoy her work, she loved learning changes and really lights up when she has got the measure of a new thing.

 but she's still always difficult, she will always be a square peg even in the dressage hole and I always have to be mindful of training her in a way that doesn't trigger an attack of the NOs, napping, reversing and rearing are her go-to things and it can happen if I just get something wrong, for her it's about her mind being supple enough each day for the work and if I don't keep on top of that throughout a session then she will throw a big NO (though most often if I work through the NO she will carry on as though it never happened).

so if the owner is not up for that kind of introspective, analytical riding then it's probably better to accept defeat.  i find it fascinating but I very much accept progress is not linear and there are bad days as well as lovely wonderful ones.


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## lolabelle36 (1 March 2021)

Sounds like he needs to be tested for PSSM. Mine was exactly like that and I thought he was just a backwards, nappy horse. Spent thousands on vet investigations. Turns out he has PSSM which is a £30 test.


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## J&S (1 March 2021)

I wonder if he was a hand reared foal?   Friends of mine hand reared a foal off the NF and he grew into a big strapping lad.  Very experienced horsey family.    His behaviour once broken in sounds very similar to this horse.  Their pony/small horse would even get completely "stuck" on the way home too!   They  also got a man to ride him and try to get him through what they thought was a phase but he never really changed.  He just became a field ornament/companion.


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

Thank you all.  So helpful to have confirmation of what I think she and I know.  I have actually spoken to my friend today - finally she has admitted that she can't cope on her own and is going to try a Vit E trial, discuss recurrence of ulcers with her vet and investigate a suitable pro to have a discussion with.  I have stressed how fearful I feel for her safety and she is absolutely determined to try to do right by the horse whatever that is.  I personally think there is a medical issue but not sure how or if this will be identified.   My friend is happy enough to accept some compromises - only hacking in company etc and to spend more money on necessary diagnostics. She has also admitted for the first time that if a lovely horse came along that she knew would work, this one could be sold to the gent who has been interested in him. For me, as long as there are no veterinary/medical issues that would be the very best outcome.    It is just utterly exhausting for her.  I think she knows that this horse will never be the easy going friend that she thought she was buying.  Poor horse has had lots of homes and clearly has had some years of trouble even though he has been valued quite highly in financial terms.  I am certain that most of those homes knew there was something really amiss with this chap.   I certainly don't think that my lovely friend would be up for introspective, analytical riding @milliepops!!  I have previously had to work with a horse like that and found it rewarding, however I would not have this horse if I was paid to take him as I see nothing but heartache ahead with him


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## milliepops (1 March 2021)

sounds like progress. if the horse is checked out one last time and has someone interested to do stuff the horse can tolerate then that's probably the best outcome for your friend and she ought to sell and THEN look for something else. Hope it has a good outcome for the horse too.

I did find that my own outlook towards my tricky girl was a big factor, when I stopped looking at her as a bloody nightmare on 4 legs and started to see the good in her, our relationship improved 100x.   very very hard to do when you're down an awful hole though, and perhaps someone different who knew what they were getting could achieve that.


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## PurBee (1 March 2021)

It’s a sorry situation but i think matching horse to rider isnt just a case of us picking any horse we want. 
Certainly from the responses on here ive read over the years, ive come to realise that the match has to work otherwise so many issues arise.

If someone is able to successfully ride him ‘stronger’ - and your friend doesnt want to ride like that, it suggests that a firm person suits him. 
Perhaps this is due to him having many owners/homes in his short life, and he really doesnt settle well, feels nervous, and so takes a very calm, confident, sure, yet firm persona to handle and ride him.

My gelding is like this - he is best behaved around mostly men, men who are calm yet firm. With me he’s more of a prat because im naturally gentle and easy-going, and he can mirror my anguish if he can provoke it in me. He’s learnt he can spook and cause a reaction in me.  Once i realised it was about me, my nature, i ’adopt’ a more firm, no-nonsense attitude with him, when he’s stressed i adopt calmness, its not my natural state around a stressed horse, i get stressed due to them...so has taken years of practice to keep my mindset very calm. It’s not easy. But ive seen the proof of it working.  

Youre friend could try a behavioural equine trainer, and she should be there to observe how they interact with the horse. Some horses do well with a gentle approach, i prefer those horses personally!....yet some DO unfortunately require a no-nonsense firm, calm , unshakable handler and rider. 
If your friend is not that firm confident persona, she needs to realise that, and consider selling him, or changing her attitude/behaviour with the horse.


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## Flame_ (1 March 2021)

Try to get her to ride something else for a while that inspires enough joy to make her see there needs to be a point where she stops pouring time, money and emotion into a horse that isn't showing any signs of ever offering anything back.

Hopefully she'll get there but some people commit to liability horses forever no matter what and it is their choice.


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

Absolutely this is right. It is such an incredibly un-stated part of horsemanship to be able to identify and cultivate a good partnership to start with where possible.  Sadly I think a great many people think or exist in a context where horses are things that you kind of pick off a shelf depending on what attributes they have rather than investigating any natural affinity between horse and person.  That is partly because of the 'system' we have here, partly because that sounds very new-age and wafty (lol!!) and partly because 'affinity' and partnership are tricky to navigate and instruct.   I always find it incredibly interesting to see what partnerships are formed with animals and how they work but not everyone does that or wants it; some folk want a less 'complex' interaction with animals - even with love and affection as a given that doesn't necessarily mean the kind of metacognitive engagement with ideas about partnership.  For me that is central but not for everyone...


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## PapaverFollis (1 March 2021)

When we were struggling with a difficult,  unsuitable horse the thing that really tipped the balance was going for a jumping lesson and a trek at a riding centre and having a jolting realisation that this was supposed to be fun! For about 24 hours it made us feel really motivated to sort the difficult horse out... then he went and did yet another stupid thing and we realised that that was never going to happen 😒 

Perhaps if you treated her to a fun half day ride or something at a good trekking centre once things open up a bit again... she might have a similar realisation? 

I do suspect that even if the horse can be fixed that the relationship has probably gone beyond by this point.


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## milliepops (1 March 2021)

palo1 said:



			Absolutely this is right. It is such an incredibly un-stated part of horsemanship to be able to identify and cultivate a good partnership to start with where possible.  Sadly I think a great many people think or exist in a context where horses are things that you kind of pick off a shelf depending on what attributes they have rather than investigating any natural affinity between horse and person.  That is partly because of the 'system' we have here, partly because that sounds very new-age and wafty and partly because 'affinity' and partnership are tricky to navigate and instruct.   I always find it incredibly interesting to see what partnerships are formed with animals and how they work but not everyone does that or wants it; some folk want a less 'complex' interaction with animals - even with love and affection as a given that doesn't necessarily mean the kind of metacognitive engagement with ideas about partnership.  For me that is central but not for everyone...
		
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yeah and a big part of this boils down to whether you buy a horse to do a job or are interested in the horse for its own sake, as well.
If I spent 10k on a horse to do dressage with then it would be a disappointment if it turned out to be school sour and only wanted to be an endurance horse  
I have things I love doing with horses - eventing was a past passion for instance, but I've learned to find a lot of pleasure from other things and at the moment that's dressage. Maybe if my homebred's talents lie elsewhere I'll find myself pivoting again. but that's because I've committed to the individual horse rather than to a riding dream. Neither is right or wrong, it's down to the individual but I think you have to recognise when a horse and rider combination fundamentally aren't compatible for one reason or another.


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## Ambers Echo (1 March 2021)

I once had a horse like this. I have never had such a frustrating experience with a horse. The only thing he did willingly was follow other horses on a hack.  On his own, you could not go more than 4 steps in an arena or our hacking in any direction without stopping. He did not rear or go backwards. He just stood still like he was rooted to the floor. He was like an oak tree! Totally immovable. My first full lap of the arena in walk was triumph! Took him to Somerford to see if the farm ride would be better for him. Nope. Got a mile down the road, would not go on, would not go back, would not lead. At one point I was giving serious consideration  to just abandoning him in there!

Various trainers saw him too but no joy. Tried all sorts of different approaches. Guy Robertson saw him - the Brannaman style of 'light as you can be hard as you need to be' so rewarding every try however small but equally susing spurs, whip. Ignored all pressure however hard it got. Tried shaking pebbles, wips wops, waiting it out. Tried clicker. Tried hiding carrots around the arena so when he moved he'd 'find' a treat.

In the end I got a horse psycholigist who described him as a 'void' horse. Empty/ shut down. But would follow other horses so I sold with full disclosure to someone who just wanted to hack in company. If he had not even hacked I'd have retired him. He was actually very friendly and affectionate on the ground, just could not stand being ridden and any pressure at all, just sent him into himself where he became unreachable.

I would not advise your friend spends too much more time or money trying to fix this. Life's too short and horses are too time consuming, stressful and expensive!


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## quizzie (1 March 2021)

Can I suggest that if she is going to do a vitamin e trial as a last resort option, that she gets the Nano E....I know it is expensive, but it is significantly more efficiently absorbed and utilised than even the normal natural powder versions...and in some horses the only one that works.


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## Rowreach (1 March 2021)

Have his eyes been tested?


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

milliepops said:



			yeah and a big part of this boils down to whether you buy a horse to do a job or are interested in the horse for its own sake, as well.
If I spent 10k on a horse to do dressage with then it would be a disappointment if it turned out to be school sour and only wanted to be an endurance horse 
I have things I love doing with horses - eventing was a past passion for instance, but I've learned to find a lot of pleasure from other things and at the moment that's dressage. Maybe if my homebred's talents lie elsewhere I'll find myself pivoting again. but that's because I've committed to the individual horse rather than to a riding dream. Neither is right or wrong, it's down to the individual but I think you have to recognise when a horse and rider combination fundamentally aren't compatible for one reason or another.
		
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Yes, that is it.  I have never had much money to buy horses with so have always had to deal with the partnership thing and direct my attention to 'achieving' what seems possible rather than necessarily my particular interests.  This has meant that I am not especially skilled in one area but happy to adapt to what will work best for that partnership.  I am so used to doing that now that I don't really have any competitive 'ambitions'!! However I am happy to have a go at most 'disciplines' and have fun doing that so there are not usually any hard feelings    I also know that things can go wrong and when they do the strength of partnership is enormously helpful in retrieving something - whether disaster comes in veterinary, personal or sporting terms.  I find animals very interesting and often surprising to work with too !!

 I do think for some people and in some competitive situations it is possibly harder to focus on the partnership element as you can really identify more particularly what you hope to gain from a particular horse purchase/acquisition and ticking those boxes probably is important.  In this instance my friend absolutely wanted a particular 'type' (Irish SH), size (16.2+), age and sex with a 'record' as a safe hunter.  Having had fun with previous horses I am not sure that she was especially worried about feeling a particular affinity with the horses she viewed as I guess she thought that 'feeling' would come in time.  That is pretty much the opposite way I tend to choose horses although I know I probably need certain things to start with.  When I went to view youngsters a couple of years ago now I knew I would 'need/want' something of around 15.2 and wanted a youngster.  After that it was, for me, entirely down to feeling which horse I wanted to work with and how they responded - albeit in a very limited way, to me!  But I had no particular end goal in mind so that was easy enough...  Competitive riders do recognise the importance of partnership and that is what usually takes them through the hard times but it is not really something that is emphasised in our horse culture.  I don't really know why - perhaps younger riders or those with really excellent training/coaching do get more of that?  I have noticed that the best trainers discuss it but at RS level (and in more informal settings) 'riding goals' are a bit more concrete. 

It is possible to have both clear goals and partnership of course; to know where you want to go and find a great partnership to share that journey and I have been lucky in that way too with several horses but I don't take it as a given.  To be honest with my friend's horse, he may possibly be happy doing something else but at the moment I don't see him as happy at all; he really doesn't seem to enjoy anything.   I do think my friend made a mistake when buying too of not 'feeling' something really special - he was a very smart horse that ticked all the specific boxes and there were also questions over some aspects of his 'experience' that possibly could have rung warning bells.  It is a very sad situation.  It is also frightening how much money has been spent to end up with a pretty much unsaleable horse (that was a pricey beggar to start with!!) and no fun or 'reward'.  I think possibly horse feels similarly!


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Have his eyes been tested?
		
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Yes, eyes tested and hearing  He is good in both respects.


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			When we were struggling with a difficult,  unsuitable horse the thing that really tipped the balance was going for a jumping lesson and a trek at a riding centre and having a jolting realisation that this was supposed to be fun! For about 24 hours it made us feel really motivated to sort the difficult horse out... then he went and did yet another stupid thing and we realised that that was never going to happen 😒

Perhaps if you treated her to a fun half day ride or something at a good trekking centre once things open up a bit again... she might have a similar realisation?

I do suspect that even if the horse can be fixed that the relationship has probably gone beyond by this point.
		
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Yes, I think it is really honest to acknowledge when things are not working and that the best thing is to move on.  It is not necessarily easy and accepting that things have got to that point is painful I think.


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## ycbm (1 March 2021)

lolabelle36 said:



			Sounds like he needs to be tested for PSSM. Mine was exactly like that and I thought he was just a backwards, nappy horse. Spent thousands on vet investigations. Turns out he has PSSM which is a £30 test.
		
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The £30 test is type 1 only and type 2 seems to be more prevalent.  There is a test for 2 but it's over £200 and not yet fully researched and peer reviewed.

I had a type 2, negative to the £30 test, diagnosed by his reaction to high doses of vitamin E and a response to alcar, though I see these days alcar tends to be recommended for type 1 not 2.
.

Palo the vitamin E must be natural or double quantity synthetic and with a horse that bad i think most people would try 8-10,000iu a day.


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			I once had a horse like this. I have never had such a frustrating experience with a horse. The only thing he did willingly was follow other horses on a hack.  On his own, you could not go more than 4 steps in an arena or our hacking in any direction without stopping. He did not rear or go backwards. He just stood still like he was rooted to the floor. He was like an oak tree! Totally immovable. My first full lap of the arena in walk was triumph! Took him to Somerford to see if the farm ride would be better for him. Nope. Got a mile down the road, would not go on, would not go back, would not lead. At one point I was giving serious consideration  to just abandoning him in there!

Various trainers saw him too but no joy. Tried all sorts of different approaches. Guy Robertson saw him - the Brannaman style of 'light as you can be hard as you need to be' so rewarding every try however small but equally susing spurs, whip. Ignored all pressure however hard it got. Tried shaking pebbles, wips wops, waiting it out. Tried clicker. Tried hiding carrots around the arena so when he moved he'd 'find' a treat.

In the end I got a horse psycholigist who described him as a 'void' horse. Empty/ shut down. But would follow other horses so I sold with full disclosure to someone who just wanted to hack in company. If he had not even hacked I'd have retired him. He was actually very friendly and affectionate on the ground, just could not stand being ridden and any pressure at all, just sent him into himself where he became unreachable.

I would not advise your friend spends too much more time or money trying to fix this. Life's too short and horses are too time consuming, stressful and expensive!
		
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That sounds so familiar AmbersEcho   I would absolutely describe him as numb and totally shut down.  Except when he is frolicking out of control in sideways-canter-bronk, without any reference whatsoever to anything around him.  He looks quite cheery and 'alive' then - ears are usually pricked and eyes soft.   It is very, very odd. I agree that life is too short.


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			The £30 test is type 1 only and type 2 seems to be more prevalent.  There is a test for 2 but it's over £200 and not yet fully researched and peer reviewed.

I had a type 2, negative to the £30 test, diagnosed by his reaction to high doses of vitamin E and a response to alcar, though I see these days alcar tends to be recommended for type 1 not 2.
.

Palo the vitamin E must be natural or double quantity synthetic and with a horse that bad i think most people would try 8-10,000iu a day.
		
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Thank you - this is exactly what I have suggested; that she feed 10,000 iu a day for a few weeks to identify if that makes any difference.  I have told her the natural Vit E is the best bet and still pretty cheap in relation to other vet investigations.  I don't know if she will follow that route or not yet but it is the second time I have suggested it to her as a test for muscle issues.


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## ycbm (1 March 2021)

Does he zone out in the stable and then leap out of his skin when you absent mindedly  touch him,  Palo?  That was what I found wierdest about my PSSM one, who sounds very similar except he wasn't usually dangerous (though he did buck me off twice in 3 years).
.


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## oldie48 (1 March 2021)

Having had a horse that didn't want to dressage anymore, I completely understand that ability to shut down but mine was always happy to hack, tbh a completely different beast. It's when they don't want to do anything that I really worry there's a physical problem. I don't count hunting as it's in a group with lots of adrenaline and having seem a lot of lame horses on hunts (sorry but I have) I know how some will work through discomfort.


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## Goldenstar (1 March 2021)

I would get a bone scan and the hind suspensories scanned .


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

oldie48 said:



			Having had a horse that didn't want to dressage anymore, I completely understand that ability to shut down but mine was always happy to hack, tbh a completely different beast. It's when they don't want to do anything that I really worry there's a physical problem. I don't count hunting as it's in a group with lots of adrenaline and having seem a lot of lame horses on hunts (sorry but I have) I know how some will work through discomfort.
		
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Quite right; plenty of really quite unwell horses would appear to 'enjoy' a days hunting! That is something that the most responsible hunting folk do bear in mind thankfully though I too have seen some unpleasant things in that way. Also at fun rides etc.   This horse likes being in the field; he has a good relationship with his retired field mate, he plays athletically, runs up to the gate to come in and walk up to his stable.  He loads fine now and is no trouble to tack up either! He doesn't appear to enjoy any riding activity outside hunting and I have seen him acting deeply unpleasantly in that situation too.


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			I would get a bone scan and the hind suspensories scanned .
		
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I don't know if this has or hasn't been done tbh.  This friend's last horse had suspensory issues which were very successfully treated and rehabbed by her so I think she would be very aware of this potentially.  So, so much money has gone to the vet that I find it hard to keep up tbh!!


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## soloequestrian (1 March 2021)

I'm sorry, I don't have anything helpful to add but I'm fascinated to know - why did she buy him?  And for quite a lot of money??


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## scats (1 March 2021)

Before I did anything else, I’d scan his suspensories. Might aswell, seen as everything else has been checked. It would be a bit counter productive to not check out the one thing that could very likely be the issue (my PSD mare was sound behind, but had dreadful napping issues)


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

soloequestrian said:



			I'm sorry, I don't have anything helpful to add but I'm fascinated to know - why did she buy him?  And for quite a lot of money??
		
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She bought him as her riding 'last hurrah!' after losing a lovely albeit quirky mare to a Sacroiliac injury sustained in the field.  She wanted a hunter for drag hunting, fun rides, low level local jumping etc.  He lives at home in the lap of luxury with a very nice older companion (retired horse that preceded the lost mare). He was a five figure sum at purchase.  He looks fabulous - beautiful, impressive and very well made.  He has been photographed by Vogue for fashion articles and has lovely turn out, lovely stables, very well made and fitted tack, regular vet, dental and tack checks;  everything that a horse could need to keep it healthy and happy!!  He has, on occasion been quite well behaved which is extremely frustrating under the circs!

ETA - I am not suggesting that Vogue fashion photographers have a good understanding of horse-flesh here btw!! Just slightly frivolous illustration of how much is thought of his good looks


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## SEL (1 March 2021)

lolabelle36 said:



			Sounds like he needs to be tested for PSSM. Mine was exactly like that and I thought he was just a backwards, nappy horse. Spent thousands on vet investigations. Turns out he has PSSM which is a £30 test.
		
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Mine too. Couldn't care less about hacking companions, would plant, rear, reverse backwards at speed and bucked like a rodeo horse when asked to canter. Type 1 PSSM and I only got her tested because I read an article and had a lightbulb moment.


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

SEL said:



			Mine too. Couldn't care less about hacking companions, would plant, rear, reverse backwards at speed and bucked like a rodeo horse when asked to canter. Type 1 PSSM and I only got her tested because I read an article and had a lightbulb moment.
		
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Which article did you read - can you remember by any chance? I could pass that on to my friend.


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## SEL (1 March 2021)

Whereabouts are you? For a different vet experience Tom Beech is worth a try and if she can get the horse to the clinic he does with Dan Wain then she'd have 2 experienced but different to the norm viewpoints.

My friend's mare had Lyme disease (worth considering?) and it took and long, long time to diagnose and then treat. During that time the mare was stiff, nappy, uncooperative and at times downright dangerous. Even when she was 'well' the behaviours were so ingrained that she continued to be incredibly difficult. She went on full training livery with Dan for a while and he turned her around - slowly, gently persuading her that her body could work again. I watched one session and it was obvious this tricky mare really liked him and was going to try whatever he wanted her to do.


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## Gingerwitch (1 March 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			I once had a horse like this. I have never had such a frustrating experience with a horse. The only thing he did willingly was follow other horses on a hack.  On his own, you could not go more than 4 steps in an arena or our hacking in any direction without stopping. He did not rear or go backwards. He just stood still like he was rooted to the floor. He was like an oak tree! Totally immovable. My first full lap of the arena in walk was triumph! Took him to Somerford to see if the farm ride would be better for him. Nope. Got a mile down the road, would not go on, would not go back, would not lead. At one point I was giving serious consideration  to just abandoning him in there!

Various trainers saw him too but no joy. Tried all sorts of different approaches. Guy Robertson saw him - the Brannaman style of 'light as you can be hard as you need to be' so rewarding every try however small but equally susing spurs, whip. Ignored all pressure however hard it got. Tried shaking pebbles, wips wops, waiting it out. Tried clicker. Tried hiding carrots around the arena so when he moved he'd 'find' a treat.

In the end I got a horse psycholigist who described him as a 'void' horse. Empty/ shut down. But would follow other horses so I sold with full disclosure to someone who just wanted to hack in company. If he had not even hacked I'd have retired him. He was actually very friendly and affectionate on the ground, just could not stand being ridden and any pressure at all, just sent him into himself where he became unreachable.

I would not advise your friend spends too much more time or money trying to fix this. Life's too short and horses are too time consuming, stressful and expensive!
		
Click to expand...

What does a horse psychologist do and who did you use? PM me if you like. After tonight's session with grub I am starting to wonder if I will ever get to the bottom of her  x


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## Gingerwitch (1 March 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			I would get a bone scan and the hind suspensories scanned .
		
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Is a bone scan for the overall horse or just sections of the horse and is it the same sort of MRI pricing ,?


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## SEL (1 March 2021)

palo1 said:



			Which article did you read - can you remember by any chance? I could pass that on to my friend. 

Click to expand...

I was on one of the appaloosa sites at the time, but I saw this list recently and thought it helpful. I think people tend to assume PSSM = tying up whereas actually 'exercise intolerance' of one form or another is more typical. 

http://www.pssm.eu/en/symptoms-of-pssm.html


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## Gingerwitch (1 March 2021)

quizzie said:



			Can I suggest that if she is going to do a vitamin e trial as a last resort option, that she gets the Nano E....I know it is expensive, but it is significantly more efficiently absorbed and utilised than even the normal natural powder versions...and in some horses the only one that works.
		
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I have never heard of bit e for horses before tonight. So it's certainly been a school day for me.


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## ycbm (1 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			I have never heard of vit e for horses before tonight. So it's certainly been a school day for me.
		
Click to expand...

Try my thin horse thread.  Nothing wrong with him at all except low winter  vitamin E levels!


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## ycbm (1 March 2021)

quizzie said:



			Can I suggest that if she is going to do a vitamin e trial as a last resort option, that she gets the Nano E....I know it is expensive, but it is significantly more efficiently absorbed and utilised than even the normal natural powder versions...and in some horses the only one that works.
		
Click to expand...


Is this the 100% RRR version?   There's a US website selling it on ebay but I don't know whether to trust it!


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## conniegirl (1 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Is a bone scan for the overall horse or just sections of the horse and is it the same sort of MRI pricing ,?
		
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It can either be for sections or for whole horse.
From when I had one done for Reeco it was about £2k for a section or £2.8k for whole horse.


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## lolabelle36 (1 March 2021)

SEL said:



			I was on one of the appaloosa sites at the time, but I saw this list recently and thought it helpful. I think people tend to assume PSSM = tying up whereas actually 'exercise intolerance' of one form or another is more typical.

http://www.pssm.eu/en/symptoms-of-pssm.html

Click to expand...

Mine never tied up, hence it was overlooked. Although not sure I'd have ever come up with PSSM on my own. Type 2 isnt treated with vitamin e, so you are better off doing the test for type 1 and knowing definitively. From what I see other people saying Type 2 is incredibly hard to manage and most seem to end up retired and the test isnt recognised by vets yet either.


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## palo1 (1 March 2021)

SEL said:



			Whereabouts are you? For a different vet experience Tom Beech is worth a try and if she can get the horse to the clinic he does with Dan Wain then she'd have 2 experienced but different to the norm viewpoints.

My friend's mare had Lyme disease (worth considering?) and it took and long, long time to diagnose and then treat. During that time the mare was stiff, nappy, uncooperative and at times downright dangerous. Even when she was 'well' the behaviours were so ingrained that she continued to be incredibly difficult. She went on full training livery with Dan for a while and he turned her around - slowly, gently persuading her that her body could work again. I watched one session and it was obvious this tricky mare really liked him and was going to try whatever he wanted her to do.
		
Click to expand...

Lyme has been checked for and discounted but it was definately worth investigating as his vet felt that having been bred in Ireland, Lymes disease was a possibility.


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## quizzie (1 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			Is this the 100% RRR version?   There's a US website selling it on ebay but I don't know whether to trust it!
		
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Nano E is the water miscellised version made by Kentucky, sold here mostly via Saracen, it is a milky coloured liquid.

The main difference is that powdered versions of natural vitamin E are esterified to the acetate form...and the horse needs to remove the acetate to transport and utilise the vitamin E, and some horses seem to have problems with this step.

Hence why the bio-availability of Nano E is so much greater......Some anecdotal veterinary evidence from one of the major equine hospitals ( never published I think) led a couple of top level equine vets to recommend " don't mess around....if you want to see if Vit E is an issue and you want to see if you can make a difference in a particular case....use Nano E  "


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## paddy555 (1 March 2021)

palo1 said:



			The horse has been tested negative for PSSM and not responded to a Vit E trial though to my mind that wasn't taken seriously by the vet and the owner probably didn't actually give a high enough dose to clarify that.
		
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Don't forget that PSSM2 is far from just being a high dose E trial. For a problem horse who could well be suffering very badly as a result of PSSM everything else has to be in place as well. Most important of those is warmth. Behaviour ranges from total unpredictability to can barely move (not won't move) all within a very short time frame. Also biting. Did you say  it bit someone. 
If your friend is open to testing something then to accurately have any guess at all at PSSM2 (you say it was tested for PSSM1) the horse would need over rugging, an exercise sheet when ridden, constant  movement ie shelter and field/track not being stabled over night. High dose E. I used equimins and I got results in 36 hours. Horse was just a little bit nicer, within a week it was obvious something had changed a lot. Daily exercise. That is most important. When I was at that stage which was basically rock bottom I exercised on long reins and built up from 10 minutes a day to an hour a day. If the horse won't move this will be the quickest way to see if there is any progress. If the horse starts moving around happily on long reins after some build up of work it will suggest you are on the right track.


Each of those is vital in having any idea if you are looking at PSSM. If you can be pretty sure that is the problem then for some horses some of those requirements can be dropped or reduced but of course having stabilised the horse you then have to experiment to find out which ones.


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## ycbm (1 March 2021)

There seem to be a lot of hard and fast rules being laid down about PSSM lately.

My own understanding is that this is a spectrum disease ranging from asymptomatic to total write off.

My own did not need heavy rugging, grass restricted or daily exercise and had a very strong response to both vitamin E (agreed to move when ridden)  and then to alcar (muscles visibly relaxed).

I think they need treating as individuals and experimenting what works for each case.

I am not an expert, but I am worried about categorical statements of how they must be managed, for a spectrum disease.
.


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## paddy555 (1 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			There seem to be a lot of hard and fast rules being laid down about PSSM lately.

My own understanding is that this is a spectrum disease ranging from asymptomatic to total write off.

My own did not need heavy rugging, grass restricted or daily exercise and had a very strong response to both vitamin E (agreed to move when ridden)  and then to alcar (muscles visibly relaxed).

I think they need treating as individuals and experimenting what works for each case.

I am not an expert, but I am worried about categorical statements of how they must be managed, for a spectrum disease.
.
		
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I can only speak about what works and yes it does range up to total write off which, in all honesty, this horse sounds to be very close to ie at the far end of the spectrum. Unless someone very forceful really makes it move whilst it could be in considerable pain.
Yours only needed vit E and alcar, Are you talking about PSSM  or simply vit E deficiency which appeared to be the problem with Ludo.

Mine needed the whole works but I have little doubt he was bad when I started down this road and is one of the more affected ones. If this is the problem then this horse sounds pretty bad. I am afraid you come across to me that PSSM2 is pretty simple, chuck some vit E and alcar at it, it worked for yours and that is it. Sadly it isn't even half the story.   


The point I was making was that if you just test the horse with vit E it may not give you much info.
Of course they need treating as individuals and you will see that I referred to this in  my final para. However you have to have some idea what disease you are dealing with first.

If you were just to test this horse with vit e and none of the other management suggestions then you may make little progress, totally miss PSSM and waste your time. The lady in this case doesn't sound as if she is going to have much time to revisit trials that she may well not believe in.

In an attempt to be helpful I tried to supply details of everything that could be done (all at once) to try and quickly establish if PSSM was a road that the lady could be looking at or at least to eliminate it.

I am afraid that you just seem to be nit picking for the sake of it.


*ETA to Palo*. This horse does sound bad. If I was in this position I think I would have a muscle biopsy done. That is the definitive test for PSSM2. It could provide the info. the owner needs in order to move forward. PSSM is a possibility but then again so many other things are including the riding. Eliminating one could help.


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## quizzie (1 March 2021)

paddy555 said:



			I can only speak about what works and yes it does range up to total write off which, in all honesty, this horse sounds to be very close to ie at the far end of the spectrum. Unless someone very forceful really makes it move whilst it could be in considerable pain.
Yours only needed vit E and alcar, Are you talking about PSSM  or simply vit E deficiency which appeared to be the problem with Ludo.

Mine needed the whole works but I have little doubt he was bad when I started down this road and is one of the more affected ones. If this is the problem then this horse sounds pretty bad. I am afraid you come across to me that PSSM2 is pretty simple, chuck some vit E and alcar at it, it worked for yours and that is it. Sadly it isn't even half the story.   


The point I was making was that if you just test the horse with vit E it may not give you much info.
Of course they need treating as individuals and you will see that I referred to this in  my final para. However you have to have some idea what disease you are dealing with first.

If you were just to test this horse with vit e and none of the other management suggestions then you may make little progress, totally miss PSSM and waste your time. The lady in this case doesn't sound as if she is going to have much time to revisit trials that she may well not believe in.

In an attempt to be helpful I tried to supply details of everything that could be done (all at once) to try and quickly establish if PSSM was a road that the lady could be looking at or at least to eliminate it.

I am afraid that you just seem to be nit picking for the sake of it.


*ETA to Palo*. This horse does sound bad. If I was in this position I think I would have a muscle biopsy done. That is the definitive test for PSSM2. It could provide the info. the owner needs in order to move forward. PSSM is a possibility but then again so many other things are including the riding. Eliminating one could help.
		
Click to expand...


Unfortunately it’s not quite that simple....although the muscle biopsy test is fairly good, it is not definitive, there are plenty of false negatives, and some false positives, plus handling and staining issues that can create anomalous results.

Also, PPSM2 is a bit of a catch all diagnosis and covers many different muscle myopathies with different causes and different managements, however many of them do benefit from high Vit e supplementation, albeit for different reasons!

Some of the PSSM2 variations are now being split out into different diagnoses including myofibrillar myositis and recurrent tying up amongst others.


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## paddy555 (1 March 2021)

quizzie said:



			Unfortunately it’s not quite that simple... .
		
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4 years, many of thousands of pounds and several vets  later I did work that one out


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## VRIN (2 March 2021)

It may have been asked already but has she tried contacting previous owners? Presumably if a 5 figure sum was paid for a 9 year old then there would have been some positive past history to support this value?


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## ycbm (2 March 2021)

VRIN said:



			It may have been asked already but has she tried contacting previous owners? Presumably if a 5 figure sum was paid for a 9 year old then there would have been some positive past history to support this value?
		
Click to expand...

In the insanely hot market created by Covid lockdown spare time and cash,  if the horse is exceptionally good looking,  as it is said to be,  then unfortunately not. 
.


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## Gingerwitch (2 March 2021)

conniegirl said:



			It can either be for sections or for whole horse.
From when I had one done for Reeco it was about £2k for a section or £2.8k for whole horse.
		
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Thanks interesting to know. X


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## palo1 (2 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			In the insanely hot market created by Covid lockdown spare time and cash,  if the horse is exceptionally good looking,  as it is said to be,  then unfortunately not.
.
		
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To answer a few of the questions (to the best of my knowledge and without exposing too much of the owner's info!) As the horse has a history of ulcers, that is the first port of call and what the equine vet is focussing on atm.  If the horse has recurrent ulcers obviously a cause will need further investigation.  The vet has suggested looking at ulcers first, then muscle related issues and after that to consider genuine behavioural problems.  I think it is very unlikely that the owner would head down a possibly necessary PSSM rabbit hole as she is much more likely to ask for veterinary referral which may or may not provide the right assessment or information about muscle related issues.  Whilst the horse does have serious issues undoubtedly he does not appear to have problems that are particularly easily attributable to PSSM or it's relatives. I know that this is not necessarily indicative but it is quite hard for folk who haven't had complex issues to deal with previously to head down a very non-specific route I think.  This owner has an excellent relationship with her vet, trusts her implicitly and has had successful resolution of horse related issues previously so it would be very difficult and not 'necessary' for her at this point to go off piste (though I might - in part because I wouldn't have the money for the scope of veterinary investigation that this owner does have!!).  So the veterinary stuff is staying on piste for now; muscle issues will be explored but through vet means in all likelihood which may include testing and biopsy.  I know that wouldn't necessarily cover the gamut of possibilities but that is the plan.  The vet is excellent and the owner has never felt the need to question or contradict a plan of action so it unlikely that this would now be a part of the discussion!

As for the history and purchase; all of the horse's history is clear and he was identified as entirely suitable for purchase at a 5 stage vetting with a vet of the owner's choice. This was a year before Covid so no issues related to Covid inflated prices or difficulties viewing or buying!!  She had, unfortunately, travelled to view only once and ridden the horse once.  She is experienced, sensible and totally realistic about horses.   She was entirely happy with him at that point although several friends had implored her to examine some minor 'holes' /ambiguities in his advert which stressed how very quiet he was and to ride in slightly more challenging circumstances. On viewing the horse was hacked out quietly in company with no problems at all.  To ride alone was not the owner's choice at this point and the horse was jumped over small obstacles for her.  All was fine though the horse was, typically extremely quiet; this was considered a good thing.   The horse had no advisories as it were, other than he was reluctant to lunge (at that point and due to having no clue why a well bred, well produced horse couldn't or wouldn't lunge for a vetting  I advised that she should investigate or walk away) . Reason for sale was that he would not go to the top in his particular sphere as a show hunter, nor would he be particularly talented as an eventer.  All of that information was pretty much verifiable.  As it happens the horse's local vet records were entirely clean too with only routine jabs etc identified.  

The ONLY real concern at purchase was the number of homes the horse had been through since arriving in England as a 3y/o.  None for longer than a year BUT at his price and breeding it was deemed by the examining vet that this was likely due to his lack of talent.  I think, in view of several things, his purchase price was probably entirely 'realistic' (if not for me!!).  I don't think that anyone has particularly and deliberately hoodwinked this owner though the horse has most likely proved very difficult for some time; it is just that in his particular life, people have been able to pass him on rather than investigate.  This owner wants to do right by him though that won't necessarily mean that it is a happy or successful outcome for her. 

It is really sad but I am very glad that vet investigations and other options are now being explored; that is at least a way forward.  I am really grateful to HHO forumers for providing some really helpful and interesting ideas.  They have been tactfully passed forward.


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## RHM (2 March 2021)

Come to this late but thought I would add my two pennies worth as you sound as though you are describing my pony. I could have written this word for word. In his case he had suspensory issues. Now these are resolved he is happy to do certain activities, eg hack out a couple times a week and he absolutely loves ground work. But if I attempted to school him he would immediately revert back to this behaviour. I pay £150 per ultrasound when the vets check my lads legs now. Which would be a fairly cheap and quick thing to rule out before passing him on. Just a thought! X


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## abb123 (2 March 2021)

I had one just like this. Tried and tested in every way by vets and all clear. Was a complete mystery as to why she was behaving like that. One day she got colic and when they opened her up they could see that her intestines had been going in and out of a small pocket causing an intermittent blockage and inflamed and painful intestines in that area. She gradually got much better after she had recovered from surgery but she was always a bit edgy which we think was due to remembered pain.


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## palo1 (2 March 2021)

abb123 said:



			I had one just like this. Tried and tested in every way by vets and all clear. Was a complete mystery as to why she was behaving like that. One day she got colic and when they opened her up they could see that her intestines had been going in and out of a small pocket causing an intermittent blockage and inflamed and painful intestines in that area. She gradually got much better after she had recovered from surgery but she was always a bit edgy which we think was due to remembered pain.
		
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How awful for her!  Glad to hear you found the reason for her problems; I really hope my friend can also find a reason for her horse's issues.  Thank you for sharing this.


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## palo1 (2 March 2021)

RHM said:



			Come to this late but thought I would add my two pennies worth as you sound as though you are describing my pony. I could have written this word for word. In his case he had suspensory issues. Now these are resolved he is happy to do certain activities, eg hack out a couple times a week and he absolutely loves ground work. But if I attempted to school him he would immediately revert back to this behaviour. I pay £150 per ultrasound when the vets check my lads legs now. Which would be a fairly cheap and quick thing to rule out before passing him on. Just a thought! X
		
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Yes, I definately think it would be worth scanning his legs; I imagine that it will be on the long list of potential investigations  Thank you for sharing your experience.


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## fredflop (2 March 2021)

What exactly has the horse had done?


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## palo1 (3 March 2021)

fredflop said:



			What exactly has the horse had done?
		
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The horse had a 5 stage vetting ( no bloods or x-rays)  pre-purchase to assess suitability to hunt and do local WH classes, hacking, fun rides etc.  Once horse began showing issues he had hocks and back scanned (nothing found); I am not sure why these 2 areas were prioritised over other things but perhaps he was sore in some way when examined?  He has also had a subsequent basic lameness work-up (no lameness, soreness etc found so no nerve blocks involved).  The horse doesn't really move well though he 'can' move spectacularly well and generally looks incredibly sound when he is happy enough to move.  It is very hard work to get his hind end engaged when ridden.  He has had teeth, saddle, bridle and bit checked by vet and dentist as well as saddle fitter. He then went on to have physio assessment after vet referral due to these initial issues and lack of finding a cause for them. Physio identified that scoping for ulcers would be helpful.  He was scoped, ulcers found, treated.  Re-scoped as clear.  Horse has had a new saddle fitted, appropriate feed and workload identified, has attended regular training to ensure that his way of going is improving (until lockdown), had been hunted quietly by his owner (4 hours max on quiet days) and has been hunted by a lightweight gentleman for 2  half days.  As the season has been very much curtailed this is very little work.  He is 16'3 and is hacked out several days a week - always in company!!  He has done very little canter work due to safety concerns though was cantering happily out hunting.  

First lot of veterinary investigations started around 6 months after purchase; the owner had issues with the horse from the off but put that down to him needing to settle and start work.  He appeared incredibly shut down and was not 'engaged' with handling or riding.  He was 'a bit bitey' too....!!

Since treatment for ulcers he has done no jumping whilst out hunting.  He has done 1 intro dressage test and following ulcer treatment appeared to be improving in terms of his psychological approach to training.  Now, several months later he is worse than ever  I suspect he has ulcers again and the trouble will be finding the underlying cause of those.  That may be suspensories, PSSM or something else.  His feet are generally excellent and he seems well shod though he can be heavy on the forehand and stumbly/careless.  He has not had a bute trial, investigation for hind gut issues, scanning for suspensories or SI issues.  Yet!!  

The owner will leave no stone unturned to get him sorted and has the finances to do a full investigation but I do think, after all of his problems that this horse will need a different set up.  His owner wants to do things that clearly don't interest the horse at all.  He is probably 'best' when doing arena based stuff - that is what his owner likes the very least in the world!!  It is also something that was advertised as not being his 'thing' when initially sold...


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## ycbm (3 March 2021)

Over 5 figures for a horse advertised as not liking arena work?  Blimey. The more you write about this horse the more I feel nobody should be riding him until his issue,  because it's obvious that there's at least one,  is found. Are "safety reasons" for not cantering in an arena that he bucks or rears?

If the owner has the money then this scenario is crying out for a whole body scintigraph. Does she have the right vet?  I'm surprised this hasn't already been suggested.


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## palo1 (3 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			Over 5 figures for a horse advertised as not liking arena work?  Blimey. The more you write about this horse the more I feel nobody should be riding him until his issue,  because it's obvious that there's at least one,  is found. Are "safety reasons" for not cantering in an arena that he bucks or rears?

If the owner has the money then this scenario is crying out for a whole body scintigraph. Does she have the right vet?  I'm surprised this hasn't already been suggested.
		
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@ycbm - I couldn't agree more!!  I felt and expressed that feeling at the original trial and vetting that at the very least the horse was seriously over-priced; wouldn't/couldn't lunge and wasn't particularly good in an arena?  Just why though?  The thing is that neither of these things bothered the owner one bit, in spite of the implication - to me at least, of some strange issues.  Who has a 5 figure horse that won't/can't lunge???  After this the first thing I did in fact was teach my young mare to lunge (I don't usually actually and don't have an arena at home but realised how incredibly 'dodgy' it can seem if a horse can't or won't do this and I also was panicked enough to make sure that she had the physical and mental capacity to cope with that.  She did thankfully!!).  She was happy to learn in a couple of afternoons...

I do think, potentially that the horse's other credentials outweighed some very 'obvious' (to me at least) 'holes'.  However, as the owner has no interest in arena based work and doesn't particularly value lunging (and nor do I actually but that's different) they seemed immaterial to her.   He was sold as a quiet ladies hunter.  He is certainly quiet and has hunted reasonably successfully so....The owner has a good vet and good referral to a top equine hospital though to be honest,  I would have gone off piste by now and would be consulting a medium!!  

ETA - in fairness to the horse and owner who I love dearly, a good looking, quiet ladies hunter with excellent breeding of that age and stamp is usually a fair price and he did come with a hunting reference (albeit quite limited).  The market in smart hunters has always been quite strong I think.   He would certainly, potentially make a very smart county level hunter if he was ok!!  For some that would be enough to justify his price.


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## be positive (3 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			Over 5 figures for a horse advertised as not liking arena work?  Blimey. The more you write about this horse the more I feel nobody should be riding him until his issue,  because it's obvious that there's at least one,  is found. Are "safety reasons" for not cantering in an arena that he bucks or rears?

If the owner has the money then this scenario is crying out for a whole body scintigraph. Does she have the right vet?  I'm surprised this hasn't already been suggested.
		
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Like ycbm I am amazed this horse was bought/ sold with what sounds like a very dodgy history/ list of dislikes let alone for a 5 figure sum however good looking he is, I may be mistaken but I think I read he could not be lunged for the vetting but that this was not considered an issue, can he be lunged or long reined now?  Just seen he didn't lunge which means part of the vetting, possibly in this case the most important part, was not done.
I am surprised a scintigraph has not been done, I thought it was the go to for this type of problem, it can muddy the waters a bit if a lot is found but it should at least allow any suspect areas to be targeted, I would also have done a decent bute trial by now, again it doesn't give a diagnosis and may not rule out pain but it can certainly rule it in if the horse responds.

I would also go right back to basics with a horse like this but it may be too far down the line for a period of time off to really chill and 6 months starting as if he knows nothing, I would also take the shoes off.


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## Michen (3 March 2021)

Given the price of a good hunter I can understand why he would have been, in theory, worth that money to an extent if he is proven with excellent references etc.


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## palo1 (3 March 2021)

be positive said:



			Like ycbm I am amazed this horse was bought/ sold with what sounds like a very dodgy history/ list of dislikes let alone for a 5 figure sum however good looking he is, I may be mistaken but I think I read he could not be lunged for the vetting but that this was not considered an issue, can he be lunged or long reined now?  Just seen he didn't lunge which means part of the vetting, possibly in this case the most important part, was not done.
I am surprised a scintigraph has not been done, I thought it was the go to for this type of problem, it can muddy the waters a bit if a lot is found but it should at least allow any suspect areas to be targeted, I would also have done a decent bute trial by now, again it doesn't give a diagnosis and may not rule out pain but it can certainly rule it in if the horse responds.

I would also go right back to basics with a horse like this but it may be too far down the line for a period of time off to really chill and 6 months starting as if he knows nothing, I would also take the shoes off.
		
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The horse has been lunged completely successfully and without issue since so that query was put to bed fairly easily.  I have no idea why this wasn't possible at the original vetting - it was a decent vet and facilities were available.  Just odd.


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## palo1 (3 March 2021)

be positive said:



			Like ycbm I am amazed this horse was bought/ sold with what sounds like a very dodgy history/ list of dislikes let alone for a 5 figure sum however good looking he is, I may be mistaken but I think I read he could not be lunged for the vetting but that this was not considered an issue, can he be lunged or long reined now?  Just seen he didn't lunge which means part of the vetting, possibly in this case the most important part, was not done.
I am surprised a scintigraph has not been done, I thought it was the go to for this type of problem, it can muddy the waters a bit if a lot is found but it should at least allow any suspect areas to be targeted, I would also have done a decent bute trial by now, again it doesn't give a diagnosis and may not rule out pain but it can certainly rule it in if the horse responds.

I would also go right back to basics with a horse like this but it may be too far down the line for a period of time off to really chill and 6 months starting as if he knows nothing, I would also take the shoes off.
		
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I don't think his history is specifically 'dodgy' though he has had a number of homes since the age of 3. I don't understand myself why the vetting vet (from a very reputable equine hospital) didn't either insist that this had to be included or call a halt to the vetting/place a serious advisory on the notes at this point.  But they didnt and consultation between owners vet and vetting vet was positive and with no areas of concern around that.  No clue why!!  I do think a scintigraph would help but I also wonder if the current vet feels that ulcers are the key problem and to start with that...

I don't think shoes will be taken off and nor do I think the owner would want to give the horse 6 months off to re-start.  That may be a sensible course of action to some but I personally don't feel that either of those things would resolve the issue.


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## oldie48 (3 March 2021)

RHM said:



			Come to this late but thought I would add my two pennies worth as you sound as though you are describing my pony. I could have written this word for word. In his case he had suspensory issues. Now these are resolved he is happy to do certain activities, eg hack out a couple times a week and he absolutely loves ground work. But if I attempted to school him he would immediately revert back to this behaviour. I pay £150 per ultrasound when the vets check my lads legs now. Which would be a fairly cheap and quick thing to rule out before passing him on. Just a thought! X
		
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A friend has spent a fortune on her horse, lots of behavioural issues, some lameness issues with front feet etc finally diagnosed as issues with both hind suspensories all the issues were due to the horse compensating from hind limb pain which resulted in the horse being lame in front.
edit. fwiw this was a horse who competed at medium at regionals with a good result despite knackered hind suspensories, horses amaze me!


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## RachelFerd (3 March 2021)

Wouldn't waste money on scintigraphy (bone scan) - poor performance work up using nerve blocks *under saddle* and ultrasound of hind suspensories is cheaper and more accurate. Scintigraphy usually throws up a load of false positives and is only really of use when you've got something very acute going on which is causing you to not want to nerve block under saddle.


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## Michen (3 March 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			Wouldn't waste money on scintigraphy (bone scan) - poor performance work up using nerve blocks *under saddle* and ultrasound of hind suspensories is cheaper and more accurate. Scintigraphy usually throws up a load of false positives and is only really of use when you've got something very acute going on which is causing you to not want to nerve block under saddle.
		
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Where on earth would you start with the nerve blocks on a horse showing no lameness?


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## RachelFerd (3 March 2021)

Michen said:



			Where on earth would you start with the nerve blocks on a horse showing no lameness?
		
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So - this is based on my experience as a rider for poor performance work-ups at the AHT.

After an initial assessment on the lunge and under saddle, you pick the most suspect leg, and start by blocking up that leg gradually. So starting by blocking foot, then pastern, then fetlock, then hock.  If the horse doesn't engage well, then you'd probably be picking a hind leg to start with. What will often happen is that with nerve blocks (usually once you're covering hocks and suspensories) the leg you haven't blocked will start to appear lame as the blocked leg improves.

You then move on to blocking the other hindleg - so this will usually then level out any unequalness you have created.

Then, quite often, because the horse is moving better behind, you'll then be able to sport some unlevelness in front and work to block that too.

By doing each assessment after each block under saddle, the rider can report back on what they feel - not just visible lameness. So you're getting input on how the contact feels, the horses willingness, their ability to flex and bend, their desire to go forwards and step under etc.


If by blocking the limbs the horse still isn't going sufficiently well, nerve blocks into the sacroiliac and into spinous processes can also show if there are problems there that are impacting performance.

The good thing about doing nerve blocks under saddle is that you are looking for the root cause of the ridden problems - rather than looking for things on imaging which might end up being just coincidental.

After hte blocking process, there will be short list of areas of the horse to do further imaging on - which is probably a combination of x-ray, ultrasound... and then MRI if the first two haven't shown anything clear.


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## RachelFerd (3 March 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			So - this is based on my experience as a rider for poor performance work-ups at the AHT.

After an initial assessment on the lunge and under saddle, you pick the most suspect leg, and start by blocking up that leg gradually. So starting by blocking foot, then pastern, then fetlock, then hock.  If the horse doesn't engage well, then you'd probably be picking a hind leg to start with. What will often happen is that with nerve blocks (usually once you're covering hocks and suspensories) the leg you haven't blocked will start to appear lame as the blocked leg improves.

You then move on to blocking the other hindleg - so this will usually then level out any unequalness you have created.

Then, quite often, because the horse is moving better behind, you'll then be able to sport some unlevelness in front and work to block that too.

By doing each assessment after each block under saddle, the rider can report back on what they feel - not just visible lameness. So you're getting input on how the contact feels, the horses willingness, their ability to flex and bend, their desire to go forwards and step under etc.


If by blocking the limbs the horse still isn't going sufficiently well, nerve blocks into the sacroiliac and into spinous processes can also show if there are problems there that are impacting performance.

The good thing about doing nerve blocks under saddle is that you are looking for the root cause of the ridden problems - rather than looking for things on imaging which might end up being just coincidental.

After hte blocking process, there will be short list of areas of the horse to do further imaging on - which is probably a combination of x-ray, ultrasound... and then MRI if the first two haven't shown anything clear.
		
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And just to add - in the 18 months I was there doing poor performance ridden work-ups, I can't think of a single horse that we couldn't find some clear root causes of the issue. Sometimes the problems were really subtle - eg.  a dressage horse that only had a problem with half pass and otherwise appeared sound. It was only in half pass that he became very resistant and sharp - nerve blocking was able to turn the horse into one that half passed easily. And thus, root problem was identified very quickly.

The AHT is no more, but Rachel Murray is now at Rossdales and is a brilliant poor performance vet.


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## be positive (3 March 2021)

palo1 said:



			I don't think his history is specifically 'dodgy' though he has had a number of homes since the age of 3. I don't understand myself why the vetting vet (from a very reputable equine hospital) didn't either insist that this had to be included or call a halt to the vetting/place a serious advisory on the notes at this point.  But they didnt and consultation between owners vet and vetting vet was positive and with no areas of concern around that.  No clue why!!  I do think a scintigraph would help but I also wonder if the current vet feels that ulcers are the key problem and to start with that...

I don't think shoes will be taken off and nor do I think the owner would want to give the horse 6 months off to re-start.  That may be a sensible course of action to some but I personally don't feel that either of those things would resolve the issue.
		
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Dodgy was not really the word I should have used but to my mind a well bred, good looking horse that has no issues when starting out in ridden life rarely gets passed about without someone finding out what it can do successfully at the better end of the market, the fact he has been moved on frequently without achieving a record, other than being a 'quiet hunter' by the age of 7 when purchased by your friend, suggests this has been going on for some time, I have had some tricky characters over the years but most find a job they can do, hacking well in company being fundamental, although I did have one that could be tricky doing that he did show to a high level and did a decent dressage test but was one that did not get sold on. 

Shoes off and a total break would be a last resort if the owner did not want to pts without one last try but I understand not everyone will want to consider that, I have a field ornament that I was going to get restarted, he is older, sound but mentally tricky, life got in the way so he is probably having one last summer.


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## Michen (3 March 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			So - this is based on my experience as a rider for poor performance work-ups at the AHT.

After an initial assessment on the lunge and under saddle, you pick the most suspect leg, and start by blocking up that leg gradually. So starting by blocking foot, then pastern, then fetlock, then hock.  If the horse doesn't engage well, then you'd probably be picking a hind leg to start with. What will often happen is that with nerve blocks (usually once you're covering hocks and suspensories) the leg you haven't blocked will start to appear lame as the blocked leg improves.

You then move on to blocking the other hindleg - so this will usually then level out any unequalness you have created.

Then, quite often, because the horse is moving better behind, you'll then be able to sport some unlevelness in front and work to block that too.

By doing each assessment after each block under saddle, the rider can report back on what they feel - not just visible lameness. So you're getting input on how the contact feels, the horses willingness, their ability to flex and bend, their desire to go forwards and step under etc.


If by blocking the limbs the horse still isn't going sufficiently well, nerve blocks into the sacroiliac and into spinous processes can also show if there are problems there that are impacting performance.

The good thing about doing nerve blocks under saddle is that you are looking for the root cause of the ridden problems - rather than looking for things on imaging which might end up being just coincidental.

After hte blocking process, there will be short list of areas of the horse to do further imaging on - which is probably a combination of x-ray, ultrasound... and then MRI if the first two haven't shown anything clear.
		
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At 70-100 quid per block depending on the block, that could rack up very quickly unless you get the right leg and right block early on. Bone scan circa £1000 depending on where you go.


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## RachelFerd (3 March 2021)

Michen said:



			At 70-100 quid per block depending on the block, that could rack up very quickly unless you get the right leg and right block early on. Bone scan circa £1000 depending on where you go.
		
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Honestly, the bone scan was often performed at the AHT because referring vets wanted one - but they were usually a total waste of time. You have no idea if the things you see on the bone scan have got anything to do with the ridden issues - so you still have to go through the complete blocking process if you want an accurate answer. The only logic to using the bone scan is if you've got a horse who can't be worked hard enough to go through all of the blocks.

You're not going to get a vet to do a poor performance work-up properly and thoroughly at home - it's a job for a clinic. It has to be done thoroughly, starting from the foot and working gradually up each leg, else it is random pot-luck and throwing money at chance.

Having sent horses of my own in for poor performance work ups, the cost of assessing through blocks has always been less than the cost of a bone scan. Remember nuclear scintigraphy means horse has to stay on site for minimum of 2 days, and since they are radioactive on day 2, they can't do any actual further analysis, so that extends the stay on site at hospital even further.


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## palo1 (3 March 2021)

Yes, it is tricky to know where to go really.  For me, at least, the horse has had ulcers and that would be my restarting point - primarily to try to track down what is causing them.  As it is something that doesn't cause 'lameness' as such nor any apparant discomfort with back, neck then you have to think of all the 'silent' things it could be; potentially hind suspensories, muscle related issues, internal/digestive issues etc.  But you do need a really good vet to do this within what can be paid for and coped with by the owner; that is the really difficult and often limiting factor.  The other thing to bear in mind is that the owner (generally speaking) usually wants not just answers but resolution too.  I know that my friend definately wants a horse to ride at the end of this so there is more motivation to look for things that can potentially be fixed than to just look for answers iykwim.  The whole thing has spooked me most horribly as this scenario is one we all dread


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## Michen (3 March 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			Honestly, the bone scan was often performed at the AHT because referring vets wanted one - but they were usually a total waste of time. You have no idea if the things you see on the bone scan have got anything to do with the ridden issues - so you still have to go through the complete blocking process if you want an accurate answer. The only logic to using the bone scan is if you've got a horse who can't be worked hard enough to go through all of the blocks.

You're not going to get a vet to do a poor performance work-up properly and thoroughly at home - it's a job for a clinic. It has to be done thoroughly, starting from the foot and working gradually up each leg, else it is random pot-luck and throwing money at chance.

Having sent horses of my own in for poor performance work ups, the cost of assessing through blocks has always been less than the cost of a bone scan. Remember nuclear scintigraphy means horse has to stay on site for minimum of 2 days, and since they are radioactive on day 2, they can't do any actual further analysis, so that extends the stay on site at hospital even further.
		
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Fair enough but I think often there is more benefit having them done at home. Often the extra adrenaline being away masks a problem that may show up at home. I’d rather my horse was pulled from the stable relaxed and in a normal routine where the issue was consistent, assuming facilities allowed for a work up. My vet seems to agree.


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## ihatework (3 March 2021)

^^^
It’s not cut and dried what is the best approach, often only hindsight gives you that! Bone scans are a useful tool but not something I’d do from the outset. From experience working a horse up at home is generally frustrating, time consuming and works out more expensive.

If I think I have an issue I get a orthopaedic vet with a very good performance eye to look at home. They generally have a gut feel of the problem area and they get one shot to block an area and image. No improvement then the horse 100% goes to the clinic to be worked up from the bottom up. No way do I pay for that to be done at home.


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## RachelFerd (3 March 2021)

Michen said:



			Fair enough but I think often there is more benefit having them done at home. Often the extra adrenaline being away masks a problem that may show up at home. I’d rather my horse was pulled from the stable relaxed and in a normal routine where the issue was consistent, assuming facilities allowed for a work up. My vet seems to agree.
		
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I don't think a satisfactory poor performance work up can ever be done at home. It takes all day to work through blocks properly - no vet has the time to do that on a visit, but at a clinic when there are 4 horses all being worked through on the same day, it makes much more sense.

If there's a strong suspicion that there's something specific, then by all means block at home if you've got a good sense of the area. But if, like in the case of this horse, you have a sound looking horse that isn't performing, then the full work up becomes the only option. Adrenaline soon disappears when they are being ridden for the 10th time that day....


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## palo1 (3 March 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			I don't think a satisfactory poor performance work up can ever be done at home. It takes all day to work through blocks properly - no vet has the time to do that on a visit, but at a clinic when there are 4 horses all being worked through on the same day, it makes much more sense.

If there's a strong suspicion that there's something specific, then by all means block at home if you've got a good sense of the area. But if, like in the case of this horse, you have a sound looking horse that isn't performing, then the full work up becomes the only option. Adrenaline soon disappears when they are being ridden for the 10th time that day....
		
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I simply cannot imagine this particular horse tolerating being ridden that much; it would become an impossible situation I fear.  I hope that another avenue of investigation reveals what the problem is tbh.  His owner certainly would not want to be the one to try to ride him through a ridden performance work up...


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## DirectorFury (3 March 2021)

Totally left field but something about this is setting off neck arthritis alarm bells for me. Has he had any neuro assessments, and does he have a large % of TB blood?


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## fredflop (3 March 2021)

It sounds to me a though a poor performance work up would be the best thing to start with, if the owner is happy to pay for it.


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## milliepops (3 March 2021)

palo1 said:



			Yes, it is tricky to know where to go really.  For me, at least, the horse has had ulcers and that would be my restarting point - primarily to try to track down what is causing them.
		
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this makes sense to me. My horse diagnosed with ulcers this winter raised question marks about why she got them, but the way we looked at it there was no potential to work up anything else until she was comfortable enough to be ridden/lunged etc.  the behaviour was so challenging that it would have been impossible to do much else before they were settled down.


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## milliepops (3 March 2021)

DirectorFury said:



			Totally left field but something about this is setting off neck arthritis alarm bells for me. Has he had any neuro assessments, and does he have a large % of TB blood?
		
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I also thought of this because of the shutdown-ness and clumsiness.


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## RachelFerd (3 March 2021)

palo1 said:



			I simply cannot imagine this particular horse tolerating being ridden that much; it would become an impossible situation I fear.  I hope that another avenue of investigation reveals what the problem is tbh.  His owner certainly would not want to be the one to try to ride him through a ridden performance work up...
		
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No - that's why the big places employ good riders specifically for riding through performance work-ups. Our job was not to push horses hard - it was to give clear feedback to the vets on the differences we could feel and help ensure that we were objective and fair in our assessments. I rode all sorts of horses - from olympic event horses through to grand prix dressage horses, FEI ponies, happy hackers and arab endurance horses.

Most of the horses that arrived were at the end of a very long road of wasted money on saddles, physios, endless ulcer investigations, sent away to professionals etc. etc. 

I do still believe that even after you resolve physical issues, there are longstanding behavioural issues that often need to be worked through - pain is lessened, but learned behaviour still needs working through. And then horses also need to be re-strengthened up again.


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## palo1 (3 March 2021)

DirectorFury said:



			Totally left field but something about this is setting off neck arthritis alarm bells for me. Has he had any neuro assessments, and does he have a large % of TB blood?
		
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Basic neuro assessments (for wobblers for eg) all clear. He certainly doesn't present as being potentially 'neurological' but the good local vet did check that out not long after problems began.  Not a huge amount of TB blood present there either.


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## Meowy Catkin (3 March 2021)

Can you show the owner RachelFerd's posts?


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## palo1 (3 March 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			No - that's why the big places employ good riders specifically for riding through performance work-ups. Our job was not to push horses hard - it was to give clear feedback to the vets on the differences we could feel and help ensure that we were objective and fair in our assessments. I rode all sorts of horses - from olympic event horses through to grand prix dressage horses, FEI ponies, happy hackers and arab endurance horses.

Most of the horses that arrived were at the end of a very long road of wasted money on saddles, physios, endless ulcer investigations, sent away to professionals etc. etc.

I do still believe that even after you resolve physical issues, there are longstanding behavioural issues that often need to be worked through - pain is lessened, but learned behaviour still needs working through. And then horses also need to be re-strengthened up again.
		
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Yes.  It is very depressing really isn't it? I am not sure I would have the energy and heart for the remaining behavoural stuff after 18 months of unmitigated worry, disappointment and safety issues.


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## palo1 (3 March 2021)

Meowy Catkin said:



			Can you show the owner RachelFerd's posts?
		
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Owner is currently pretty fragile but as she moves through the process of investigation I will suggest her asking the vet about a full performance work up.  At the moment she is struggling to accept where she is at.


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## ycbm (3 March 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			Wouldn't waste money on scintigraphy (bone scan) - poor performance work up using nerve blocks *under saddle* and ultrasound of hind suspensories is cheaper and more accurate. Scintigraphy usually throws up a load of false positives and is only really of use when you've got something very acute going on which is causing you to not want to nerve block under saddle.
		
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Really interesting,  thank you,  I will modify my opinion of them. 
.


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## RachelFerd (3 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			Really interesting,  thank you,  I will modify my opinion of them.
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Would add - I am not a vet, and my opinion is based on those of the vets I worked with. But I think the basic logic of  'if an issue only shows up fully under saddle, you need to test whether what you have found resolves the issue under saddle' is strong. There was one case I remember where the horse's lameness was too acute for going through nerve blocks, and the mystery lameness turned out to be a tiny fracture somewhere in the knee joint. That was found through bone scan. What bone scan couldn't see is that the horse then came back months later with continued poor performance, which was ultimately something else (PSD, or SIs, or both - can't remember!)

I also subscribe to the view that you shouldn't go looking unless you're trying to find something. Horses rarely have totally clean x-rays and scans - the challenge is knowing what is causing problems, rather than what is visible. Sometimes quite big visible problems on imaging don't seem to be causing the horse any issues at all. 

In this horse's case, it sounds like owner is at the point where she *is* trying to find something - and therefore, the way you go looking should be a logical process, rather than a scattershot approach. And then there's a layer of behavioural rehab to get sorted on top of anything physical that may/may not exist.

If I was a betting person I'd put money on PSD and/or SI pain - knowing that both of those, if significant, could lead to ulcers anyway.


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## palo1 (3 March 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			Would add - I am not a vet, and my opinion is based on those of the vets I worked with. But I think the basic logic of  'if an issue only shows up fully under saddle, you need to test whether what you have found resolves the issue under saddle' is strong. There was one case I remember where the horse's lameness was too acute for going through nerve blocks, and the mystery lameness turned out to be a tiny fracture somewhere in the knee joint. That was found through bone scan. What bone scan couldn't see is that the horse then came back months later with continued poor performance, which was ultimately something else (PSD, or SIs, or both - can't remember!)

I also subscribe to the view that you shouldn't go looking unless you're trying to find something. Horses rarely have totally clean x-rays and scans - the challenge is knowing what is causing problems, rather than what is visible. Sometimes quite big visible problems on imaging don't seem to be causing the horse any issues at all.

In this horse's case, it sounds like owner is at the point where she *is* trying to find something - and therefore, the way you go looking should be a logical process, rather than a scattershot approach. And then there's a layer of behavioural rehab to get sorted on top of anything physical that may/may not exist.

If I was a betting person I'd put money on PSD and/or SI pain - knowing that both of those, if significant, could lead to ulcers anyway.
		
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This is very interesting and helpful thank you I will keep this for an appropriate moment to share.


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## PapaverFollis (3 March 2021)

I think there's 3 routes out of a situation like this.

A.Pass the horse on to someone that wants it.  Even if that means the horse then doesn't get something investigated that it should and maybe ends up in sh*t state.  Some control can be exerted, theoretically, by passing on as a loan. 

B.The full workup under saddle/nerve blocks etc as RachelFerd describes, with scans and scintigraphy and everything.   Lots of money and emotional energy. Might find a problem. Might not be able to fix the problem.  Then what? PTS? Retire?

C.Take the shoes off, chuck it in a field/track/rehab livery for a long period.  Let the feet function as feet. Let the horses just be a horse.  Re-start and bring back into work slowly as carefully.   If that doesn't work, field ornament or PTS.

I think if I could afford it I would scan for a suspensory issue then take option C.  I'd kind of prefer option A but I think my conscience would get the better of me.   Option B is probably best money allowing but I would never expect that of anyone because it's not realistic. And I couldn't do it.

Oh and of course Option D is PTS without further investment.  I wouldn't blame anyone for going there either.  If it's lame, in pain or just not right mentally then for me that is always justifiable.


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## palo1 (3 March 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			I think there's 3 routes out of a situation like this.

A.Pass the horse on to someone that wants it.  Even if that means the horse then doesn't get something investigated that it should and maybe ends up in sh*t state.  Some control can be exerted, theoretically, by passing on as a loan.

B.The full workup under saddle/nerve blocks etc as RachelFerd describes, with scans and scintigraphy and everything.   Lots of money and emotional energy. Might find a problem. Might not be able to fix the problem.  Then what? PTS? Retire?

C.Take the shoes off, chuck it in a field/track/rehab livery for a long period.  Let the feet function as feet. Let the horses just be a horse.  Re-start and bring back into work slowly as carefully.   If that doesn't work, field ornament or PTS.

I think if I could afford it I would scan for a suspensory issue then take option C.  I'd kind of prefer option A but I think my conscience would get the better of me.   Option B is probably best money allowing but I would never expect that of anyone because it's not realistic. And I couldn't do it.

Oh and of course Option D is PTS without further investment.  I wouldn't blame anyone for going there either.  If it's lame, in pain or just not right mentally then for me that is always justifiable.
		
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I would see it the same as you.  I don't think at this point I could pass the horse on. He really doesn't deserve more upheaval and lack of resolution to his issues.   If the horse were mine I would probably re-treat the ulcer symptoms (horse is behaving as he did prior to ulcer diagnosis) whilst also arranging for suspensories scan.  If that scan was positive I would, in all likelihood proceed thinking and hoping that was the way forward and that with healed (if possible) suspensories, ulcers may not recur; it would probably be a very extended and cautious rehab.  I would take off the shoes too.  

I would be desperately hoping not to get to plan B because if I were at that point I would have no money to do it anyway and would have to go for Plan D  (PTS)  in all likelihood   I don't think my friend would consider unshod as a way forward though shoes may be off as part of rehab.

I really feel her frustration and disappointment too and keep guiltily sneaking off to enjoy riding my (currently healthy - eek) horses...Riding with this horse is really not for the faint hearted as either horse or rider is constantly at melt-down point and it is all very 'charged' with angst on everyone's part.  I really, really, really, really hope that there is progress one way or another very soon.  I suspect that if ulcer meds work again no further investigation will happen unless the vet advises that (I would hope vet does but you never know).


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## RachelFerd (3 March 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			I think there's 3 routes out of a situation like this.

A.Pass the horse on to someone that wants it.  Even if that means the horse then doesn't get something investigated that it should and maybe ends up in sh*t state.  Some control can be exerted, theoretically, by passing on as a loan.

B.The full workup under saddle/nerve blocks etc as RachelFerd describes, with scans and scintigraphy and everything.   Lots of money and emotional energy. Might find a problem. Might not be able to fix the problem.  Then what? PTS? Retire?

C.Take the shoes off, chuck it in a field/track/rehab livery for a long period.  Let the feet function as feet. Let the horses just be a horse.  Re-start and bring back into work slowly as carefully.   If that doesn't work, field ornament or PTS.

I think if I could afford it I would scan for a suspensory issue then take option C.  I'd kind of prefer option A but I think my conscience would get the better of me.   Option B is probably best money allowing but I would never expect that of anyone because it's not realistic. And I couldn't do it.

Oh and of course Option D is PTS without further investment.  I wouldn't blame anyone for going there either.  If it's lame, in pain or just not right mentally then for me that is always justifiable.
		
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I think you've summed it up pretty well. Option B only really exists if you have deep pockets, or insurance that you haven't already run out of time on.

Option C is probably where I'd end up, but that would be on the basis of knowing that I still might not have a horse that wants to do the same things as I do at the end of it.

And attached to both option B and option C is that there's *still* probably a layer of reschooling to get past whatever memories the horse has about life thus far.

Edited to add - with my event horse I ended up doing B and C (although his temperament was brilliant, his performance had tailed off) - the B option took place 9 months after issues started coming up, so I was able to put through insurance. Revealed lots of problems (3x limbs with PSD, secondary SI problem) - so treated as per vets instructions, but then also turned away for 18 months, gave the horse a long time without shoes and brought back into work very slowly. Obviously doesn't compare to the OP because I was starting with a horse that had such a good temperament it made sense to try everything. it did work - and he's progressed up the levels since.


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## palo1 (3 March 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			I think you've summed it up pretty well. Option B only really exists if you have deep pockets, or insurance that you haven't already run out of time on.

Option C is probably where I'd end up, but that would be on the basis of knowing that I still might not have a horse that wants to do the same things as I do at the end of it.

And attached to both option B and option C is that there's *still* probably a layer of reschooling to get past whatever memories the horse has about life thus far.

Edited to add - with my event horse I ended up doing B and C (although his temperament was brilliant, his performance had tailed off) - the B option took place 9 months after issues started coming up, so I was able to put through insurance. Revealed lots of problems (3x limbs with PSD, secondary SI problem) - so treated as per vets instructions, but then also turned away for 18 months, gave the horse a long time without shoes and brought back into work very slowly. Obviously doesn't compare to the OP because I was starting with a horse that had such a good temperament it made sense to try everything. it did work - and he's progressed up the levels since.
		
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That is great to hear that it worked for you    It must have been helpful but also worrying to know exactly what the issues were and lovely for your horse that he was given enough time of his own to truly rest and recover.


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## Ambers Echo (3 March 2021)

RachelFerd, can I just say that was really, really interesting. I have bone scanned twice and neither time was very helpful. And as you say both  needed 3 days in hospital. I might have got more from a performance work up. So thanks for posting.


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## paddi22 (3 March 2021)

yes thats fantastic information Rachel.


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## SEL (3 March 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			RachelFerd, can I just say that was really, really interesting. I have bone scanned twice and neither time was very helpful. And as you say both  needed 3 days in hospital. I might have got more from a performance work up. So thanks for posting.
		
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I also found it very helpful. I was practically on my knees pleading with vets to assess under saddle because she looked 'ok' until a rider got on her. In the end I changed vets and sent them a video of my issues - but by that time x,y,z was ruled out from the insurance so the investigations ended up being more scattergun than they needed to be if I'd had vets follow this more logical approach from day 1 (& that was with a known PSSM diagnosis)


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## Gingerwitch (3 March 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			RachelFerd, can I just say that was really, really interesting. I have bone scanned twice and neither time was very helpful. And as you say both  needed 3 days in hospital. I might have got more from a performance work up. So thanks for posting.
		
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Me to. RachelFerd thank you for taking the time to reply with such matter of fairness. Really appreciated and most useful to many. 
Thank you


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## ycbm (3 March 2021)

Another thank you to RF for some seriously useful information.  It's all gone in my databank! 
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## RachelFerd (3 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			Another thank you to RF for some seriously useful information.  It's all gone in my databank!
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It was a well spent 18 months of my life - terrible pay, but fascinating opportunity to bend the ear of top vets and ride very smart (but also broken) horses every day. Glad to share some of it!


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## palo1 (3 March 2021)

If I can and my friend can move forward I will suggest this route in fact  Really good to know (hoping I don't need to use this information personally now!!) Thank you.


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## SmallSteps (4 March 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			No - that's why the big places employ good riders specifically for riding through performance work-ups. Our job was not to push horses hard - it was to give clear feedback to the vets on the differences we could feel and help ensure that we were objective and fair in our assessments. I rode all sorts of horses....
		
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Ages (~10yrs?) ago I worked with a liphook vet who was having trouble because the performance work up riders are so good the horses tend to progress slightly sounder every time they are ridden, so it's hard to tell if your nerve block is helping 😆


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## brighteyes (4 March 2021)

Can I ask why your friend doesn't just get another one and 'retire' this one?


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## Caol Ila (5 March 2021)

SmallSteps said:



			Ages (~10yrs?) ago I worked with a liphook vet who was having trouble because the performance work up riders are so good the horses tend to progress slightly sounder every time they are ridden, so it's hard to tell if your nerve block is helping 😆
		
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Yeah, I've found I can hide Gypsum's arthritic lameness stuff, from myself mainly, by riding her in a way that compensates. Up to a point anyway . A good rider can do a lot.


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## DabDab (5 March 2021)

I have a horse who was extremely exercise intolerant (later diagnosed as pssm), and sending for a performance work-up of the type RF describes was honestly one of the worst things I've ever done to him. And didn't diagnose the issue.

I've also known a number of frustrated owners who know that there is something wrong with their horse but nothing is found. And some vets prefer the regular rider to be on board for this reason.

And I have also met different vets over time with a whole range of diagnostic methods - some whom use scintigraphy, some very hands on and intuition based, some who use less or more blocking and I'm generally pretty uncomfortable with any one of these approaches being pushed or advised against in general terms. If you're paying for vet input you should at least trust their diagnostic methods (or those of the vet they refer to), and let them go through their own process.


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## LEC (5 March 2021)

Michen said:



			At 70-100 quid per block depending on the block, that could rack up very quickly unless you get the right leg and right block early on. Bone scan circa £1000 depending on where you go.
		
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I had nerve blocks done the other day £10 to get feet done.

I have also had bone scans done on two horses and closer to £2500. Though bone scans actually did give us an answer.


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## tallyho! (5 March 2021)

One thing struck me is about getting him to move at all sometimes... could have been my horse a few years ago. 

Has the owner checked for PSSM?


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## RachelFerd (5 March 2021)

SmallSteps said:



			Ages (~10yrs?) ago I worked with a liphook vet who was having trouble because the performance work up riders are so good the horses tend to progress slightly sounder every time they are ridden, so it's hard to tell if your nerve block is helping 😆
		
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Fair point - there were some that came in so unschooled we were definitely accidently schooling them up as we went.... 

I would add, I found it *much* harder to be objective when I rode my own horse through the blocking process when I took him in, as that emotional connection to the problem, along with being so used to riding him and compensating for his issues made it very hard to assess him as we went.

I think it's fair enough comments re. picking a vet whose approach you align with. For me, that 'intuitive' type vet I'd run screaming from!


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## conniegirl (5 March 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			Wouldn't waste money on scintigraphy (bone scan) - poor performance work up using nerve blocks *under saddle* and ultrasound of hind suspensories is cheaper and more accurate. Scintigraphy usually throws up a load of false positives and is only really of use when you've got something very acute going on which is causing you to not want to nerve block under saddle.
		
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Ive had 2 horses go through bone scans and both were useful. 
Both had had full lameness workups (including nerve blocks) under saddle at a major vet hospital and nothing or very little found. 

In fact the first one got to the point of scareing the vets rider (his problem was bolting) he was at the vet hospital for 4 days of investigations before the bonescan revealed 3 fractures to his pelvis and 1 to his skull.

The second horse was such a willing lad who had been compensating pretty much since he was backed. nerve blocks of his hocks helped but didn’t resolve the issue. Bone scan revealed some fairly major arthritis of the spine, vet was amazed the horse let anyone on his back, let alone had been showing in HOYS qualifiers and that the horse hadn’t reacted at all to the physical exam of his spine.


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## ycbm (5 March 2021)

conniegirl said:



			Ive had 2 horses go through bone scans and both were useful.
Both had had full lameness workups (including nerve blocks) under saddle at a major vet hospital and nothing or very little found.

In fact the first one got to the point of scaring the vets rider (his problem was bolting) he was at the vet hospital for 4 days of investigations before the bonescan revealed 3 fractures to his pelvis and 1 to his skull.

The second horse was such a willing lad who had been compensating pretty much since he was backed. nerve blocks of his hocks helped but didn’t resolve the issue. Bone scan revealed some fairly major arthritis of the spine, vet was amazed the horse let anyone on his back, let alone had been showing in HOYS qualifiers and that the horse hadn’t reacted at all to the physical exam of his spine.
		
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This is the sort of thing I thought they were useful for, thanks for the examples.  
.


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## RachelFerd (5 March 2021)

conniegirl said:



			Ive had 2 horses go through bone scans and both were useful.
Both had had full lameness workups (including nerve blocks) under saddle at a major vet hospital and nothing or very little found.

In fact the first one got to the point of scaring the vets rider (his problem was bolting) he was at the vet hospital for 4 days of investigations before the bonescan revealed 3 fractures to his pelvis and 1 to his skull.

The second horse was such a willing lad who had been compensating pretty much since he was backed. nerve blocks of his hocks helped but didn’t resolve the issue. Bone scan revealed some fairly major arthritis of the spine, vet was amazed the horse let anyone on his back, let alone had been showing in HOYS qualifiers and that the horse hadn’t reacted at all to the physical exam of his spine.
		
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Horse 1 - does sound like classic situation in which bone scan was really useful.

Again - in the *i'm not a vet* territory here. But where I worked for the 2nd horse, I think vets would have nerve blocked spine, demonstrated that that did help resolve the issue, then would have x-rayed. Probably saving everyone £2k plus on a bone scan. But many roads to Rome and all that and glad you found the answer!

ETA - link to article by one of the vets I was working with - https://www.horseandrideruk.com/expert-advice/articles/too-close-for-comfort/, albeit re. kissing spines not arthritis - "Nuclear scintigraphy (bone scan) has been used to assess the activity of kissing spines. A radioactive substance is injected into your horse’s bloodstream and binds to bone, particularly if the bone is actively remodelling. This shows up as a hot spot. However, hot spots on bone scans don’t necessarily equate to pain and this technique can give false positive and false negative results, so it can’t be reliably used in place of a thorough lameness examination and blocking with local anaesthetic."


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## DabDab (5 March 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			I would add, I found it *much* harder to be objective when I rode my own horse through the blocking process when I took him in, as that emotional connection to the problem, along with being so used to riding him and compensating for his issues made it very hard to assess him as we went.

I think it's fair enough comments re. picking a vet whose approach you align with. For me, that 'intuitive' type vet I'd run screaming from!
		
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Yeah I find it really hard to be objective with my exercise intolerant one (still do, I have to rely a lot on the eyes of the saddle fitter because my feedback is pretty pants), which is part of the reason I thought a full work-up might work...hey ho, got the answer eventually. I find it much easier to be objective on my others, particularly my older mare, though she is very much more a heart on sleeve type.

I really appreciate the flexibility of approach that my current vets have (and a real diversity of vets available), there are just so many individual factors, particularly when trying to figure out the issues of a complicated case.


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## tallyho! (5 March 2021)

Palo1... just to add although too late for my post above... a change of diet would be the thing I'd go to first, and cheapest to see if it makes a difference. Try a PSSM diet - it's a great diet for any horse to be fair which makes me sometimes wonder if diets for horses went wrong somewhere...


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## maya2008 (6 March 2021)

Physical problems ruled out...

If the horse likes hunting, sell it to be a hunter? I had a pony who basically hated ‘normal’ ridden life - too spooky-  but was bored in the field.  I put two years of work in to make her rideable, then sold her to be a games pony. She LOVED being a games pony so much and was really good at it. Happy as anything. Keeping her would have been unkind, selling her was the best thing for her.

I currently have a 13hh pony who is supposed to be for my son. She wants to be mine, very obviously so. I am only 5ft4, I don’t squash her, so for now at least she can have her wish. I won’t try to make her be a kids’ pony if she doesn’t want to be.


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## hollyandivy123 (6 March 2021)

maya2008 said:



			Physical problems ruled out...

If the horse likes hunting, sell it to be a hunter? I had a pony who basically hated ‘normal’ ridden life - too spooky-  but was bored in the field.  I put two years of work in to make her rideable, then sold her to be a games pony. She LOVED being a games pony so much and was really good at it. Happy as anything. Keeping her would have been unkind, selling her was the best thing for her.

I currently have a 13hh pony who is supposed to be for my son. She wants to be mine, very obviously so. I am only 5ft4, I don’t squash her, so for now at least she can have her wish. I won’t try to make her be a kids’ pony if she doesn’t want to be.
		
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reminds me of a lass when i was a kid............the kid wanted to be a show jumper the pony didn't...........the pony loved games, thrived on it...........the kid still thought of it as a "show jumper" (the pony would jump the first on the course, slow for the second and stop at the third) they eventually sold it and the person who bought through it straight into games and i think they ended up on telly!

the sort of moral of the story is sometimes they prefer to do want they were not bred for...........................

if there is nothing physically wrong with the horse the OP mentioned, it really does sound that the partnership has become blocked, they seem to both expecting a repeat of the same thing. 

horse is i do this then i can avoid doing that, rider if the horse does this then it will not do that.......................


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## Muddywellies (10 March 2021)

Sounds like the horse has done a superb job of training his owner, just as mine managed to very cleverly train me.  It took a pro to sort it out, and I still have the pro ride mine fairly regularly to help remind her what's what.  I'm by no means a novice, but just not as confident as I need to be.     In your friend's situation, if I really wanted to make it work, I'd fully investigate any possible  lameness issues and if all OK, put on long term schooling livery with a really good trainer.


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## palo1 (24 April 2021)

Update: I just thought I would update this thread.  Horse was re-treated for ulcers without a second scope and no change noted in behaviour or way of going.  Physio and vet have worked together to identify any other potential issues over the last few weeks and the horse has now had a ridden workup with both owner and pro rider. Videos of horse in lessons assessed by both too.  There is a query about some back soreness/potential kissing spines but any physical issues have been very, very difficult to find either consistently or definitively.  The horse is now on a bute trial for two weeks. So far, ironically, his behaviour has been, if anything worse!  This may point to some discomfort which will may be related to his back. He has had several specialist saddle checks carried out previously and his tack is not considered to be an issue.  No leg/foot related issues have been found at all.  It is intensely frustrating but one by one, potential causes of his behavioural issues are being eliminated.


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## milliepops (24 April 2021)

I really feel for the owner, that sound like pretty demoralising experience but full credit for trying to work out what the problem is.


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## palo1 (24 April 2021)

milliepops said:



			I really feel for the owner, that sound like pretty demoralising experience but full credit for trying to work out what the problem is.
		
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Yes, it is really soul destroying for the owner  She bought the horse thinking that at last she 'deserved' something really super; smart and well bred as she has had a variety of odd-balls over the years (all nice but all with known issues which she has worked around).  The horse was expensive to buy, pre-purchase vetted by Rossdales and was to be the owner's final glorious fling!! He has been nothing but horribly difficult and unrewarding for the last (nearly) 2 years.  He has cost an absolute fortune in non-insurance paid investigations, tack re-working etc etc but she is still doing her best to work with him.  The whole thing makes me shudder but I am full of admiration for her to put so much time, money and emotion into a horse that doesn't seem to give much back.  I don't think I could do it myself and would probably have put him in the field and gone and bought a cheap and cheerful one to enjoy! She could do that in fact yet.


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## Dexter (24 April 2021)

Has a test been done for PSSM? Its the first thing I would have done given what you describe. Sadly its likely to be type 2 in this instance, and it doesnt have a great ending usually. But at least you would have answers.


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## palo1 (24 April 2021)

Dexter said:



			Has a test been done for PSSM? Its the first thing I would have done given what you describe. Sadly its likely to be type 2 in this instance, and it doesnt have a great ending usually. But at least you would have answers.
		
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He has been tested for PSSM as far as I know and not positive.  So, so many avenues have been explored to date -none resulting in any answers sadly.


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## moosea (24 April 2021)

I assume his eyes and teeth have been tested?


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## palo1 (24 April 2021)

moosea said:



			I assume his eyes and teeth have been tested?
		
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Yes, everything has been gone over with a fine toothcomb   Poor owner would be delighted if some physical cause was now found, even if it meant retirement (which he would have) or PTS.  This horse literally wants for nothing in terms of facilities  (well owner doesn't have her own arena but can use a neighbour's 5 mins up the road for rehab work if needed), money or care.  No stone will go unturned for him.  I am astonished,humbled and in some ways inspired by her despairing determination to do right by the horse, but I would not be able to sustain that effort myself (somewhat sad to say).  She is still keen to love and enjoy him.  The next step, in veterinary terms will be x-rays of his back and subsequently scans of his legs (in spite of apparent complete soundness even with nerve blocks  ).  Investigations have cost thousands but I think that the current thinking in equestrian terms is always to assume that poor behaviour is pain/discomfort related so those things must be ruled out first.   Everyone is agreed that there is 'something wrong' though at least!!


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## maya2008 (25 April 2021)

What does his canter look like? I have known horses look sound at a trot yet their canter never looked quite right. One started by digging up the school a lot when cantering and seeming just a little more unbalanced than you would expect, and ended up cantering with a really horrible, rolling motion. Vet always said sound because they only saw it in trot. Developed pain related ulcers, behavioural issues etc eventually and needed retiring.


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## itroteverywhere (27 April 2021)

palo1 said:



			He has been tested for PSSM as far as I know and not positive.  So, so many avenues have been explored to date -none resulting in any answers sadly.
		
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I haven't read all the responses so sorry if I'm repeating something that has already been said - but there are different types of muscle myopathies, so just because PSSM1 has been ruled out, doesn't mean that the horse won't have potentially a different one. I think this is why a vitamin e trial (not the synthetic one) is so useful. 

What is the horse currently being fed? 

You also mentioned that the horse is almost worse for the bute trial. That would make me consider hind gut ulcers (which won't come up on a scope).


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## palo1 (27 April 2021)

itroteverywhere said:



			I haven't read all the responses so sorry if I'm repeating something that has already been said - but there are different types of muscle myopathies, so just because PSSM1 has been ruled out, doesn't mean that the horse won't have potentially a different one. I think this is why a vitamin e trial (not the synthetic one) is so useful.

What is the horse currently being fed?

You also mentioned that the horse is almost worse for the bute trial. That would make me consider hind gut ulcers (which won't come up on a scope).
		
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Yes, the horse has been on a Vit e trial (natural variety at 10,000 per day); no result .  Hind gut ulcers could really be a problem in my view though I would hope and imagine that all of the veterinary involvement to date would have considered this and/or discarded that?  The horse is on a very ulcer-friendly regime but I agree that being worse on bute might suggest that there is stomach discomfort somewhere...ETA - I remember that the horse has had 2 treatments of sulcralfate (which I understand is the recommendation for hind gut ulcers) with no resolution.


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## palo1 (12 May 2021)

Final (I think!) update which may be interesting for anyone else in this situation.  Horse has now been discharged for veterinary issues - performance work up at equine specialist vet has been done with any suspect areas of potential pain focussed on.  The horse has been declared fine with no physical/pain issues that can be realistically found/identified.  That is good news!  His attitude hasn't improved but the owner is happy now to work on training and doing the things that the horse seems happiest with.  It has been a hugely expensive and emotionally draining experience for the poor owner who now recognises that she would really struggle to sell him; his veterinary records would put anyone off even though nothing has been found.  After nearly 2 years of very frustrating ownership and worry I do think the owner is now reconciled to making the best of things with this horse.   He is a very, very lucky horse.  I really hope that training and the development of a partnership will make a positive difference to both horse and owner.  It is nice that the horse has a wonderful, caring home for life and entirely admirable that his owner is prepared to try to work with what the horse enjoys perhaps at the cost of what she enjoys - I so hope that ownership of this very tricky chap brings unexpected rewards.


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## BunnyDog (12 May 2021)

Forgive the late addition and post. 

I would suggest, from my own job here, that the horse might well benefit from an evaluation by a neurologist. 

There's a disease that we're seeing here in quite a lot of horses, many from your side of the Atlantic, called Equine Degenerative Myeloencephalopathy. Aka EDM, not to be confused with EPM. (Equine Protazoal Myeloencephalitis).

No way to simply test whether or not a horse has it while alive. You can only definitively confirm in it post mortem samples of the brain and spinal cord. 

Lots of symptoms, bigger red flags are changes in behavior and inability to process normal things, like ask it to go forward undersaddle and it can't. 

I work as the admin for a boarded Equine Neurologist here. Essentially this goes back to how much vitamin E/ fresh pasture the horse's have as a foals. A lacking of Vitamin E leaves the brain itself susceptible to this. BUT I am not a vet. But a ton of horses that came from places in UK/IRE/Europe without lots of pasture are being seen and put down because of this.  

Em


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## Dexter (12 May 2021)

itroteverywhere said:



			I haven't read all the responses so sorry if I'm repeating something that has already been said - but there are different types of muscle myopathies, so just because PSSM1 has been ruled out, doesn't mean that the horse won't have potentially a different one. I think this is why a vitamin e trial (not the synthetic one) is so useful.
		
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Vitamin e is not the treatment for type 2 PSSM, so absolutely wont rule it out


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## fredflop (13 May 2021)

Surely the pssm 2 test is worth having done now?


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## palo1 (13 May 2021)

BunnyDog said:



			Forgive the late addition and post.

I would suggest, from my own job here, that the horse might well benefit from an evaluation by a neurologist.

There's a disease that we're seeing here in quite a lot of horses, many from your side of the Atlantic, called Equine Degenerative Myeloencephalopathy. Aka EDM, not to be confused with EPM. (Equine Protazoal Myeloencephalitis).

No way to simply test whether or not a horse has it while alive. You can only definitively confirm in it post mortem samples of the brain and spinal cord.

Lots of symptoms, bigger red flags are changes in behavior and inability to process normal things, like ask it to go forward undersaddle and it can't.

I work as the admin for a boarded Equine Neurologist here. Essentially this goes back to how much vitamin E/ fresh pasture the horse's have as a foals. A lacking of Vitamin E leaves the brain itself susceptible to this. BUT I am not a vet. But a ton of horses that came from places in UK/IRE/Europe without lots of pasture are being seen and put down because of this. 

Em
		
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Thank you for this.  How interesting and concerning as well as sad.  I am not sure I will pass this on at the moment tbh as it may freak out the owner who is emotionally exhausted at this point BUT I will hold this in my head!  

As for PSSM tests, this has been discussed at some length with the vets but it seems that really there are not enough symptoms or behavioural issues to warrant any further expense or worry.  Clearly those tests aren't especially expensive or difficult but I fear the owner has totally lost heart for veterinary investigations now.  Horse has improved slightly in some ways also - with the help of a good and sympathetic coach.   He will now hack out without continually napping and is better both on his own (very short hacks) and in company.  He does seem to 'enjoy' jumping; ears are forward and gears engaged for that even in an arena that he is hugely familiar with and generally uninspired by (so no adrenaline effect).  The owner has put in a great deal of patient and sympathetic training and will continue that but of course should a veterinary issue arise or become evident she will deal with that.  Horse hasn't bitten anyone spontaneously or casually for ages now either!!  I REALLY hope that there will be a positive and happy future for the partnership - it really is a wonderful home and life for a horse and the owner absolutely deserves a lovely horse which this one looks like even though at present he is not quite the full deal!


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## Dexter (13 May 2021)

There are more than enough symptoms. The horse is showing classic symptoms off PSSM 2. There is no vet investigation required. You pull some hairs and send them off.

The horse may not have PSSM, but it has something wrong. It makes me so sad when vets declare something as behavioural just because they cant find the issue. It makes me even sadder than I am yet to meet a vet who knows anything beyond tying up might mean PSSM and thats only if you are lucky, and also isn't correct.


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## palo1 (13 May 2021)

Dexter said:



			There are more than enough symptoms. The horse is showing classic symptoms off PSSM 2. There is no vet investigation required. You pull some hairs and send them off.

The horse may not have PSSM, but it has something wrong. It makes me so sad when vets declare something as behavioural just because they cant find the issue. It makes me even sadder than I am yet to meet a vet who knows anything beyond tying up might mean PSSM and thats only if you are lucky, and also isn't correct.
		
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I know. I too feel a bit sad that sometimes simple things aren't explored but for now I think the owner needs to take a break; she is following her trusted vet's advice and realistically that is not a bad way to proceed.


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## ycbm (13 May 2021)

palo1 said:



			As for PSSM tests, this has been discussed at some length with the vets but it seems that really there are not enough symptoms or behavioural issues to warrant any further expense or worry.
		
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I'm banging my head on a wall here Palo, I agree with Dexter that the description is a  fit for PSSM issues.  It seems vets still don't know enough about the disease.

For the sake of about £250 of hair root DNA testing,  the horse could be struggling along in daily pain from aching muscles 
.


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## palo1 (13 May 2021)

ycbm said:



			I'm banging my head on a wall here Palo, I agree with Dexter that the description is a  fit for PSSM issues.  It seems vets still don't know enough about the disease.

For the sake of about £250 of hair root DNA testing,  the horse could be struggling along in daily pain from aching muscles 
.
		
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I understand your sense of frustration; particularly for the horse and for me, those tests would have been done early doors tbh.  They are relatively cheap, simple and would provide more insight into behaviour that is just 'not quite right'.  BUT, this owner has totally followed her vet's advice and support, she has a long standing and very positive relationship with the vet and has had the best veterinary outcomes previously.  I really don't think that approach and investment is wrong.  In time, she may feel that other avenues need exploring and I am not the only person who has suggested PSSM testing (several different tests).  At the moment she is exhausted emotionally and financially, the horse is being very well looked after and worked very quietly and with as little stress or demands on him mentally and physically as possible.  If he gets worse rather than better then I am sure that further advice will be sought tbh. It would drive me mad to leave a couple of tests undone but we are not all the same and I have not had the 2 years of worry and frustration that this lady has had; I am not astonished that she wants to walk away from such heavy duty vet stuff and try to just get on with the horse.  It may not be the best but I do understand her point of view.


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## paddy555 (13 May 2021)

BunnyDog said:



			Forgive the late addition and post.

I would suggest, from my own job here, that the horse might well benefit from an evaluation by a neurologist.

There's a disease that we're seeing here in quite a lot of horses, many from your side of the Atlantic, called Equine Degenerative Myeloencephalopathy. Aka EDM, not to be confused with EPM. (Equine Protazoal Myeloencephalitis).

No way to simply test whether or not a horse has it while alive. You can only definitively confirm in it post mortem samples of the brain and spinal cord.

Lots of symptoms, bigger red flags are changes in behavior and inability to process normal things, like ask it to go forward undersaddle and it can't.

I work as the admin for a boarded Equine Neurologist here. Essentially this goes back to how much vitamin E/ fresh pasture the horse's have as a foals. A lacking of Vitamin E leaves the brain itself susceptible to this. BUT I am not a vet. But a ton of horses that came from places in UK/IRE/Europe without lots of pasture are being seen and put down because of this. 

Em
		
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thank you for posting that. Really interesting.


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## BunnyDog (14 May 2021)

paddy555 said:



			thank you for posting that. Really interesting. 

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I will mention this with a very large grain of salt as a caution, but there is a Facebook group started by a client of ours about EDM.

It's called "Horses With EDM: Information and Support "

https://www.facebook.com/groups/702186200661414

Not ALL the info in there is actually 100% accurate. I am riding a tough line that my job doesn't want me to post much (even non work knowledge related stuff) and I see their point. I can't just willy nilly call people out for incorrect info. So I read a lot of it, but I just can't piss off the employers. So by and large I am quiet. But a lot of the cases mentioned there were seen by the clinic I work for. 

 It's a horrible disease and I will freely admit that I stare at Chad often and pray over and over that he had enough grass years before I met him. Since he is in the basic category where we see it most. Warmblood imports, 5-10 years old, especially big floaty movers. He's been clean and non neurologic on every annual pre-season check so that's a bit of a relief. But it's a challenge to not think it's everywhere due to my job. It's not "everywhere" in all facts, but it is increasing. 

Em


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## Meowy Catkin (14 May 2021)

BunnyDog said:



			FI work as the admin for a boarded Equine Neurologist here. Essentially this goes back to how much vitamin E/ fresh pasture the horse's have as a foals. A lacking of Vitamin E leaves the brain itself susceptible to this. BUT I am not a vet. But a ton of horses that came from places in UK/IRE/Europe without lots of pasture are being seen and put down because of this.

Em
		
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I'm just wondering how much time at grass is required. I have bought two yearlings myself and would like to buy another if circumstances ever allow and obviously would like to avoid the above issue.

I know that some foals are kept in for a few days after birth if they have issues, for example they are a dummy foal. Is this enough to cause damage even if they are then turned out once capable?

One of mine was turned out on a grass paddock with his dam during the day, but they were bought in at night. Is this OK, or is it safer to buy a youngster that has had 24/7 turnout from the start?


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## BunnyDog (14 May 2021)

Meowy Catkin said:



			I'm just wondering how much time at grass is required. I have bought two yearlings myself and would like to buy another if circumstances ever allow and obviously would like to avoid the above issue.

I know that some foals are kept in for a few days after birth if they have issues, for example they are a dummy foal. Is this enough to cause damage even if they are then turned out once capable?

One of mine was turned out on a grass paddock with his dam during the day, but they were bought in at night. Is this OK, or is it safer to buy a youngster that has had 24/7 turnout from the start?
		
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These are all great questions that my knowledge doesn't quite extend to. I will see what I can find out for you. 

Em


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## palo1 (26 February 2022)

Update February 2022!!

Just under a year after I first posted I thought I would update - it may be interesting for others!!  Friend and horse are still together and are now working in a brilliant partnership   It is really lovely to see tbh after so many problems.  In brief, the horse was treated for ulcers, saddle fitter and fitting was changed, bridlery and lorinery all carefully considered and some low level flatwork was continued.  There were small chinks of light but eventually my lovely friend took the horse for a couple of sessions to a more classical type of trainer. She just wanted to know what the issues were really as all physical things had by then been excluded.  In 2 sessions this awkward unhappy horse was more or less turned round - though with lots of work from the rider at home.   The key things that were embedded were the improvement of the rider's position (pretty 'normal' ordinarily; not fabulous and not awful by any stretch but a standard sort of RS position) and absolute thinking-ness and clarity of aids and ask from the rider in EVERY SINGLE MOMENT of their ridden or in-hand work - for a while at least.  This was very hard work for my friend who is much more accostomed to a horse that doesn't need this.  She took it all on though.

  They have both done so brilliantly tbh and have been out to local UA dressage where horse performed sweetly if not with passion for the job!!  He is also jumping nicely and hacking out on his own and in company really politely and with a smile on his face.  The other really important thing for this horse was a reduction in his workload - he usually has a day off after a longer ride and the work is tailored to his temperament.  He is a beautiful horse but has a slight work ethic issue lol!!   Obviously every horse is different and needs different input and circumstances to thrive but absolute hats off to my lovely friend for persevering to find the right ingredients for her super chap.  

Of course she has now been offered mega-money for him but wouldn't sell him for the world.  He has a lovely home for life hopefully.  Happy times.


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## Mule (26 February 2022)

palo1 said:



			Update February 2022!!

Just under a year after I first posted I thought I would update - it may be interesting for others!!  Friend and horse are still together and are now working in a brilliant partnership  It is really lovely to see tbh after so many problems.  In brief, the horse was treated for ulcers, saddle fitter and fitting was changed, bridlery and lorinery all carefully considered and some low level flatwork was continued.  There were small chinks of light but eventually my lovely friend took the horse for a couple of sessions to a more classical type of trainer. She just wanted to know what the issues were really as all physical things had by then been excluded.  In 2 sessions this awkward unhappy horse was more or less turned round - though with lots of work from the rider at home.   The key things that were embedded were the improvement of the rider's position (pretty 'normal' ordinarily; not fabulous and not awful by any stretch but a standard sort of RS position) and absolute thinking-ness and clarity of aids and ask from the rider in EVERY SINGLE MOMENT of their ridden or in-hand work - for a while at least.  This was very hard work for my friend who is much more accostomed to a horse that doesn't need this.  She took it all on though.

  They have both done so brilliantly tbh and have been out to local UA dressage where horse performed sweetly if not with passion for the job!!  He is also jumping nicely and hacking out on his own and in company really politely and with a smile on his face.  The other really important thing for this horse was a reduction in his workload - he usually has a day off after a longer ride and the work is tailored to his temperament.  He is a beautiful horse but has a slight work ethic issue lol!!   Obviously every horse is different and needs different input and circumstances to thrive but absolute hats off to my lovely friend for persevering to find the right ingredients for her super chap. 

Of course she has now been offered mega-money for him but wouldn't sell him for the world.  He has a lovely home for life hopefully.  Happy times. 

Click to expand...

That's fab


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## Meowy Catkin (26 February 2022)

Thank for the brilliant update.


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## Pinkvboots (26 February 2022)

Great news


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## Pearlsasinger (26 February 2022)

That is wonderful news!  Lucky horse!


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## Orangehorse (26 February 2022)

Great news.

Great trainer too.


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## Goldenstar (26 February 2022)

That’s really nice to hear .


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## Wizpop (26 February 2022)

That is so fantastic to read! What an amazing lady to persevere with this unhappy horse and to now have this lovely partnership- truly a very special relationship.🤩


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## Jeni the dragon (26 February 2022)

What a lovely update!


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## palo1 (26 February 2022)

Orangehorse said:



			Great news.

Great trainer too.
		
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Yes; this trainer could see what the issues were and relatively minor changes really altered the dynamic and mental comfort of both horse and rider.  Tis marvellous!!


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## palo1 (26 February 2022)

Wizpop said:



			That is so fantastic to read! What an amazing lady to persevere with this unhappy horse and to now have this lovely partnership- truly a very special relationship.🤩
		
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Yes, it really is now and my friend has the super horse she has always wanted and deserves and her sweet, slightly complex chap has a home that will love and care for him as he needs.  He is one lucky horse!!


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## Bernster (26 February 2022)

Always nice to read an update and great that it’s such a positive one!


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## Ambers Echo (26 February 2022)

That’s great. What a wonderful outcome x


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## Equi (26 February 2022)

Glad your friend has had a good outcome. Saddle fit really makes a difference, and not all saddle fitters are good. So that potentially has made a massive difference to him. I also understand the work ethic thing.. i always said my horses go better after a break and by break i mean a couple of days. Not all horses need or want to be ridden daily.


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