# Another British Horse Society c**k-up



## JanetGeorge (23 September 2018)

I thought that after Sheila Hardy won her unfair dismissal case, there MIGHT have been an improvement in employer/employee relations.  But now - Wendy Suddess - who has worked her backside off for the BHS for 17 years - has been sacked.  I'm slowly gathering facts - but far too many people seem to be scared to open their mouths.  Who knows what is going on??


----------



## Rowreach (23 September 2018)

Who knows, it's always been a clique.


----------



## minesadouble (23 September 2018)

I may be able to find something out from my daughters coach as she she is very in the know. I dont know Wendy personally but am fairly local to her and have only ever heard good things about her. It just all seems very very odd!


----------



## JulesRules (23 September 2018)

I've only seen a fb post from the sacked lady shared by a friend that used to work for BHS , but apparently she is taking them to tribunal so probably nobody will be able to say much whilst that is going on....


----------



## Red-1 (23 September 2018)

Oh, I have had a browse on Facebook. The post does not look very good for the BHS.

I don't know about any corruption, but I have not found them to be efficient or professional as an organisation. A bit left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing rather than any corruption.

They cost me a lot of money at one point with their inefficiency. But then, they did pay me back somewhat with the flood of Accredited Trainer jackets they sent and then did not want back. 

It does seem very cliquey. 

On the FB post it did seem ironic that someone is claiming that a senior staff member was banned from driving for 6 months for speeding during the BHS Slow Down For Horses campaign, and then claimed extra expenses from the charity as a result. Rather counterproductive and an own goal, but not corruption.


----------



## Cop-Pop (23 September 2018)

While I fully support the aims BHS, the turnover of staff there is awful  It seems like the people on the ground are doing their best without adequate support from the top, and it comes across as a bit shambolic really.


----------



## JanetGeorge (24 September 2018)

minesadouble said:



			I may be able to find something out from my daughters coach as she she is very in the know. I dont know Wendy personally but am fairly local to her and have only ever heard good things about her. It just all seems very very odd!
		
Click to expand...

Very, very odd - and more!  I am hearing whispers about whistle blowing and financial 'irregularities'.  I WILL get to the bottom of it!


----------



## Pearlsasinger (24 September 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Very, very odd - and more!  I am hearing whispers about whistle blowing and financial 'irregularities'.  I WILL get to the bottom of it!
		
Click to expand...

TBH, now that you know that  minimal information, it is best left for the process to be gone through.  If details are drip fed to the general public/membership, that could be detrimental to both the process, which should be led by someone who is not involved and to the outcome for individuals.  If, at the end of the process, you feel that either, it was flawed, or that the allegations made should be made public, for the benefit of employees or members, that is the time to discuss on a public forum/in the press.


----------



## Flicker (24 September 2018)

Crikey, just read the ET ruling for the unfair dismissal claim.  Procedurally flawed at every step.  What was their HR person doing to advise them?  As an organisation, you&#8217;d think they&#8217;d be scrambling to get their house in order after such a public evisceration.


----------



## Nasicus (24 September 2018)

Any links to any info? I'm not having much luck finding much of anything!


----------



## Red-1 (24 September 2018)

Nasicus said:



			Any links to any info? I'm not having much luck finding much of anything!
		
Click to expand...

I just Googled British Horse Society Employment Tribunal and it was not hard to find. Nothing lost by sharing, as it is already a matter of public record.


https://assets.publishing.service.g...ritish_Horse_Society_1303008_2016_reasons.pdf

Not that I have read it, the document looks like too hard going for a casual glance.


----------



## onemoretime (24 September 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Very, very odd - and more!  I am hearing whispers about whistle blowing and financial 'irregularities'.  I WILL get to the bottom of it!
		
Click to expand...

. Good for you Janet these people need exposing.


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (24 September 2018)

Red-1 said:



			I just Googled British Horse Society Employment Tribunal and it was not hard to find. Nothing lost by sharing, as it is already a matter of public record.


https://assets.publishing.service.g...ritish_Horse_Society_1303008_2016_reasons.pdf

Not that I have read it, the document looks like too hard going for a casual glance.
		
Click to expand...

Read the last 2 pages in the final summing up.

Basic procedure wasn't followed. ACAS procedure was ignored. They completely cocked up. 
BHS collated and made a case over 7 weeks,  AH was then given 1 working day to submit hers. 
Solicitors requested info from BHS, not given. 
Sounds a bit of a witch hunt, even to me as a layperson! 

Pretty damning reading!


----------



## Velcrobum (24 September 2018)

Red-1 said:



			I just Googled British Horse Society Employment Tribunal and it was not hard to find. Nothing lost by sharing, as it is already a matter of public record.


https://assets.publishing.service.g...ritish_Horse_Society_1303008_2016_reasons.pdf

Not that I have read it, the document looks like too hard going for a casual glance.
		
Click to expand...

Having just read that what a catalogue of cock ups and not following your own guide lines. Close to a witch hunt by certain people named.


----------



## Velcrobum (24 September 2018)

Copied and pasted from a public statement:-

I cannot believe that the CEO of the British Horse Society is still being allowed to ruin so many people's lives with her narcissistic management! Having worked at the society for 12 years, I know just how knowledgeable, loyal and hard working Wendy Suddes is. But unfortunately, she is just another in a long line of "victims" who have tried to stand up to the toxic and corrupt BHS Management currently in place, only to be sacked in the most appalling manner. 
BHS members now need to be made aware of what their membership money is being spent on - (as well as the CEO's expenses when she was banned from driving for 6 months for speeding during the BHS Slow Down For Horses campaign - you couldn't make it up!!!) - mostly defending tribunal cases from the many staff who have had to leave through stress and bullying, who have been unfairly dismissed or who have been paid off with a confidentiality agreement when they no longer agreed with Lynn Peterson - she truly is a sociopath!
I have seen it first hand, I used to work in the finance department.

Please share this far and wide so BHS members know what their hard earned cash is really being used for.


----------



## Velcrobum (24 September 2018)

Velcrobum said:



			Having just read that what a catalogue of cock ups and not following your own guide lines. Close to a witch hunt by certain people named.
		
Click to expand...

Just discovered one of the principle complainees is a National Manager for BHS and presumably re-numerated...............


----------



## YorksG (24 September 2018)

I have just read the whole judgement and am absolutely astonished at how the BHS, or certainly some of its quite senior employees, have behaved! If a local Riding Club behaved in that manner no-one would want to be a member, let alone the major organisation for all things equestrian in the UK  What a dire state of affairs.


----------



## onemoretime (24 September 2018)

YorksG said:



			I have just read the whole judgement and am absolutely astonished at how the BHS, or certainly some of its quite senior employees, have behaved! If a local Riding Club behaved in that manner no-one would want to be a member, let alone the major organisation for all things equestrian in the UK  What a dire state of affairs.
		
Click to expand...


It really is sad and shocking YorksG isn't it.


----------



## Rowreach (24 September 2018)

That makes unsurprising reading to me from both perspectives (and yes I trawled through the whole lot).

Out of interest, how many of you have been on those RRS training days (under the old system, not Ride Safe)?


----------



## Red-1 (24 September 2018)

Rowreach said:



			That makes unsurprising reading to me from both perspectives (and yes I trawled through the whole lot).

Out of interest, how many of you have been on those RRS training days (under the old system, not Ride Safe)?
		
Click to expand...

I did a training day/competition once, I think it was called Instructor of the Year or some such thing. Counted as CPD but was cheaper. The very senior BHS person who was judging the competition was very unprofessional, used very discriminatory and simply sickening language against vulnerable clients of his. 


TBH, had I thought anyone would listen and take action I would have complained. But, he was one of the old boys, so did not. I hate to think that there has been a which hunt, but there does have to be a system where people can complain and know that the people would actually be investigated. 


As the BHS administers and judges exams, I do think that most things that could/should be complained about are just left. 


It does seem, however, that in the case online there were serious errors.


----------



## Rowreach (24 September 2018)

Red-1 said:



			I did a training day/competition once, I think it was called Instructor of the Year or some such thing. Counted as CPD but was cheaper. The very senior BHS person who was judging the competition was very unprofessional, used very discriminatory and simply sickening language against vulnerable clients of his. 


TBH, had I thought anyone would listen and take action I would have complained. But, he was one of the old boys, so did not. I hate to think that there has been a which hunt, but there does have to be a system where people can complain and know that the people would actually be investigated. 


As the BHS administers and judges exams, I do think that most things that could/should be complained about are just left. 


It does seem, however, that in the case online there were serious errors.
		
Click to expand...

In my experience, nobody takes a blind bit of notice of the feedback forms, which are hardly anonymous, given they watch you fill them in and there aren't very many of you doing it.  They didn't take any notice of mine anyway, and I signed it! 

Reading the bit about the witness statements, where witnesses had asked to be anonymous in case there was any backlash, rings true to me.  Small world, much cliqueyness.

The judgment is damning against the BHS for not adhering to its own procedures, but it also reduced the compensation amount by 20% in light of the alleged behaviour of the claimant and the complaints against her.


----------



## EventingMum (24 September 2018)

Rowreach said:



			That makes unsurprising reading to me from both perspectives (and yes I trawled through the whole lot).

Out of interest, how many of you have been on those RRS training days (under the old system, not Ride Safe)?
		
Click to expand...

I have been on several of the old system RRS training days although none as recently as 2016. I can honestly say they were all well run and Shelia Hardy appeared very dedicated and professional in her role at them. RRS is never an exciting topic in my mind and IMO these days attracted a fair number of individuals who seemed to think being a trainer or an assessor gave them some status and were not always easy people to deal with.


----------



## Rowreach (24 September 2018)

EventingMum said:



			I have been on several of the old system RRS training days although none as recently as 2016. I can honestly say they were all well run and Shelia Hardy appeared very dedicated and professional in her role at them. RRS is never an exciting topic in my mind and IMO these days attracted a fair number of individuals who seemed to think being a trainer or an assessor gave them some status and were not always easy people to deal with.
		
Click to expand...

It comes with the hi viz waistcoat and the clipboard


----------



## JanetGeorge (24 September 2018)

Well, I have just been on the phone for an hour and have a BIT more info (waiting for a full dossier by snail mail.)  Seems that anyone who doesn't meet the CE's requirements stands N chance of getting on the board.  Last elections, 2 candidates - two vacancies.  Interviewed by the Chairman, a couple of other board members and the CE (since WHEN did CE's have a say in appointing THEIR bosses.)  The problem is to find people prepared tp speak up - their jobs are on the line if they are employed - and if they are FBHS, BHSI etc, then they also could find it costs them dear.  And the members keep paying for it!  Not much hope for horse welfare!


----------



## sywell (25 September 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Well, I have just been on the phone for an hour and have a BIT more info (waiting for a full dossier by snail mail.)  Seems that anyone who doesn't meet the CE's requirements stands N chance of getting on the board.  Last elections, 2 candidates - two vacancies.  Interviewed by the Chairman, a couple of other board members and the CE (since WHEN did CE's have a say in appointing THEIR bosses.)  The problem is to find people prepared tp speak up - their jobs are on the line if they are employed - and if they are FBHS, BHSI etc, then they also could find it costs them dear.  And the members keep paying for it!  Not much hope for horse welfare!
		
Click to expand...

I have worked with Shelia on ROW for over 20 years with the greatest respect for her dedication and competence and as Chair of a Local Access Forum I have tried for 3 years to get the BHS to send a representative to this Statutory body under the Crow Acts.  This also throws a different light on the BHS decision to close down the Horse and Pony Breeds Committee Chaired by a Past President of the BHS and the Vice chair CEO of SPGB.


----------



## Nasicus (25 September 2018)

Red-1 said:



			I just Googled British Horse Society Employment Tribunal and it was not hard to find. Nothing lost by sharing, as it is already a matter of public record.


https://assets.publishing.service.g...ritish_Horse_Society_1303008_2016_reasons.pdf

Not that I have read it, the document looks like too hard going for a casual glance.
		
Click to expand...

Oh that one is from 2017, I was after info on the Wendy situation, but that was certainly interesting!


----------



## honetpot (25 September 2018)

They are a bunch of cowboys.
  I always thought they were old fashioned and having worked for an employer that had no real understanding of employment procedures I can understand how they could think they could be judge and jury.


----------



## onemoretime (25 September 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Well, I have just been on the phone for an hour and have a BIT more info (waiting for a full dossier by snail mail.)  Seems that anyone who doesn't meet the CE's requirements stands N chance of getting on the board.  Last elections, 2 candidates - two vacancies.  Interviewed by the Chairman, a couple of other board members and the CE (since WHEN did CE's have a say in appointing THEIR bosses.)  The problem is to find people prepared tp speak up - their jobs are on the line if they are employed - and if they are FBHS, BHSI etc, then they also could find it costs them dear.  And the members keep paying for it!  Not much hope for horse welfare!
		
Click to expand...

What a dreadful way to treat good staff, I am totally astounded at what I have been reading.  Its so hard to get good staff as I know in the yard, that you hang on to them and treat them with respect.  Also if people like BHSI's and FBHS feel they cannot speak out what hope is there for the future!


----------



## onemoretime (25 September 2018)

They are a bunch of cowboys.

Its certainly looks like it Honeypot, surely they have lawyers they can consult on Employment Law!  I feel so sorry for both ladies who have been treated so badly.  Not sure I won't to be associated with BHS anymore!


----------



## McFluff (26 September 2018)

The tribunal finding makes shocking reading. Rather concerned to see that they have (or had?) a Director of HR - and they then had HR consultancy support! I&#8217;m embarrassed for my profession. I expect a far higher level of competence from even the most junior members of my HR team. Even those at the beginning of their training would know that wasn&#8217;t an appropriate way to lead or handle an alleged misconduct. Shocking. I would expect any employment lawyer worth their salt to advise them to settle out of court, the fact they didn&#8217;t indicates either total arrogance or a culture of fear and bullying. 
Shame as it puts the whole reputation and purpose of the society into question, although I&#8217;m sure they have some very dedicated staff sticking it out as they&#8217;ll be so passionate about the original purpose of the society.


----------



## JanetGeorge (26 September 2018)

McFluff said:



			. Rather concerned to see that they have (or had?) a Director of HR - and they then had HR consultancy support! Im embarrassed for my profession. I expect a far higher level of competence from even the most junior members of my HR team.
		
Click to expand...

From what I've heard of the current HR Director, she alone would be a good reason to run a mile from taking a job there.


----------



## bluedanube (26 September 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			From what I've heard of the current HR Director, she alone would be a good reason to run a mile from taking a job there.
		
Click to expand...

 ...


----------



## Nicnac (26 September 2018)

Just read the Tribunal doc - what a cluster.  So where does one get their 3rd party insurance from other than the BHS as I won't be renewing.


----------



## DD (26 September 2018)

Nicnac said:



			Just read the Tribunal doc - what a cluster.  So where does one get their 3rd party insurance from other than the BHS as I won't be renewing.
		
Click to expand...

just what I was thinking. world horse welfare do 3rd party.http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/championplus


----------



## HectorTTerry (28 September 2018)

It's really sad to hear that yet again staff are treated badly in the BHS. The CEO does not care about individuals nor their well being. People are disposable. And yet people are petrified of speaking out because she has so much control. The cost to members' for the high staff turnover is disgusting - not only the cost of the recruitment agents and advertising but the cost of the knowledge that is lost. Why is the BHS not focusing its efforts on horse welfare? Instead it spends an unusually large amount of money on paying people off to keep quiet. I'd like to know exactly how much the BHS has spent on legal fees and how many agreements have been put together. It's not normally activity for such a small charity (in terms of number of employees). I'd also propose that Horse & Hound investigates. After all, it's gone awfully quiet since the BEF independent report that uncovered bullying by the member bodies. Something has to be done. It's too sad to see people who genuinely care about horses being treated so dreadfully. I've even heard that one individual was close to suicide because of their treatment at the BHS. I'm sorry... but that's just not acceptable. People's lives are at stake here!


----------



## GHamlet75 (28 September 2018)

Horse & Hound I have always respected your journalist talents but seriously what was last week's article about the current CEO of BHS all about? She says her success at the BHS is all down to the people? Then why has Wendy been treated in this way? Wendy has dedicated her life to the BHS. My understanding is that the moment Wendy fairly challenged the CEO about how money was being spent in the charity she was got rid of. I think there's too many contradictions going on here. Horse & Hound I'd like to see an article that reveals the trust about just what is going on in the BHS - please stick to your journalist roots as I know you can reveal the truth!


----------



## Archangel (28 September 2018)

HectorTTerry said:



			It's really sad to hear that yet again staff are treated badly in the BHS. The CEO does not care about individuals nor their well being. People are disposable. And yet people are petrified of speaking out because she has so much control. The cost to members' for the high staff turnover is disgusting - not only the cost of the recruitment agents and advertising but the cost of the knowledge that is lost. Why is the BHS not focusing its efforts on horse welfare? Instead it spends an unusually large amount of money on paying people off to keep quiet. I'd like to know exactly how much the BHS has spent on legal fees and how many agreements have been put together. It's not normally activity for such a small charity (in terms of number of employees). I'd also propose that Horse & Hound investigates. After all, it's gone awfully quiet since the BEF independent report that uncovered bullying by the member bodies. Something has to be done. It's too sad to see people who genuinely care about horses being treated so dreadfully. I've even heard that one individual was close to suicide because of their treatment at the BHS. I'm sorry... but that's just not acceptable. People's lives are at stake here!
		
Click to expand...

It is all in the accounts here

YE Dec 2017 - Â£70k on redundancy/termination
Salary 
1 person, presumably CEO Â£120k â€“ 130k
3 in Â£70 â€“ 80k band

I realise the charity has a lot of activities but these are punchy salaries when you add pension/health care benefits. 
Expenses - that is quite a figure at Â£21k for the year. 

Bullying in charities is rife.  Trouble always starts at the top.


----------



## HectorTTerry (28 September 2018)

Thanks for sharing Archangel. I forgot that this information is publicly available. Makes for interesting reading in my opinion. Am I reading this correctly... that Legal, professional and audit fees were Â£105,629 last year?! Which incidentally was a 220% increase in costs from 2016? Wow! What has the BHS got to hide?!!!


----------



## Archangel (28 September 2018)

HectorTTerry said:



			Thanks for sharing Archangel. I forgot that this information is publicly available. Makes for interesting reading in my opinion. Am I reading this correctly... that Legal, professional and audit fees were Â£105,629 last year?! Which incidentally was a 220% increase in costs from 2016? Wow! What has the BHS got to hide?!!!
		
Click to expand...

Crikey you are right.


----------



## HectorTTerry (28 September 2018)

Sorry I missed the first line of your costs Archangel... Â£70k on redundancy and termination?! I don't believe there were any redundancies last year which means Â£70k on termination. Do they honestly think they can just continue to pay people off and that the truth won't come out?


----------



## HectorTTerry (28 September 2018)

And for the record I don't have a problem with people being paid a decent salary if they are doing a good job. After all we all have bills to pay. Obviously the CEO is being paid a hefty amount but I wonder how the split is of male to female salaries. I'm guessing the male directors are in the Â£70 â€“ 80k band? What happened to equal opportunities BHS?


----------



## GHamlet75 (28 September 2018)

I'm struggling to see where I can find the costs of that new horsebox in the accounts. Has anyone else seen it? I saw it at Badminton and Riding Club Championships and no one was even in it! What a total waste of members' money! How much do you think it cost?


----------



## honetpot (28 September 2018)

Most businesses lease hire but I have no idea why the BHS would need a horsebox. Even a lot of racehorse trainers do not buy them outright.

http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends04/0000210504_AC_20171231_E_C.PDF

Maybe I am missing something but that's some very expensive staff generating and spending not a lot of money.

Tucked at the very end.

I found the horsebox *Â£138,000*, *page 40 *under *capital commitments.* For BHS On The Move. So how many times has it been out this year?


----------



## Red-1 (28 September 2018)

honetpot said:



			Most businesses lease hire but I have no idea why the BHS would need a horsebox. Even a lot of racehorse trainers do not buy them outright.

http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends04/0000210504_AC_20171231_E_C.PDF

Maybe I am missing something but that's some very expensive staff generating and spending not a lot of money.

Tucked at the very end.

I found the horsebox *Â£138,000*, *page 40 *under *capital commitments.* For BHS On The Move. So how many times has it been out this year?
		
Click to expand...

Is the horsebox also for moving horses? Or just to go to shows? Â£138,000 seems an awful lot of money for a charity to spend on one vehicle, and not as accessible as a tent, or a low trailer with pull out front. That would be more flexible space. I can't think that a big horsebox is great for people who are not as mobile. My mum would not be able to get into a horsebox, and many other people too. A horsebox is not open and welcoming as you can't see inside to get a view of what is on offer. It seems more secluded than inclusive.

If it is also to move horses, then I would have thought it would still be more cost effective to have a display trailer and a separate working box, that does not need luxury living and would cost less in fuel. To go rescue animals it would soon be scratched going down lanes to access said horses in need.

The two possible uses are just not compatible, a display vehicle to welcome people and a work vehicle to go up muddy lanes to yards/fields in the middle of nowhere.

It did look nice and shiny in the photo I saw of it though.


----------



## honetpot (28 September 2018)

So they are driving the new lorry all the way to Scotland, when a village hall cost about Â£10 an hour to hire. How many people does this horse box hold.
http://www.bhs.org.uk/enjoy-riding/.../bhs-on-the-move-lorry-back-to-basics-evening
The event only lasts two and a half hours, so its to be hoped they have more booked while its up there.


----------



## Red-1 (28 September 2018)

honetpot said:



			So they are driving the new lorry all the way to Scotland, when a village hall cost about Â£10 an hour to hire. How many people does this horse box hold.
http://www.bhs.org.uk/enjoy-riding/.../bhs-on-the-move-lorry-back-to-basics-evening

Click to expand...

So is it not a horsebox with horse area? 

Our village hall is Â£10 to hire a room for an hour suitable for up to 20 people or Â£20 for a room suitable for up to 100. It has toilets, a kitchen and bar area. It has car parking, outside lighting, a break out area... 

Surely it would be better for the people to arrive by car and hire a hall. I bet the lorry does less than 20mph. Probably less than 15mph. If they are also transporting the speakers the front part must have seats with seatbelts? So how many people can attend. 

Genuinely interested.


----------



## ester (28 September 2018)

It was on the quiet part of the course at blenheim, it said please come in, I didn't see anyone going in they were in the gazebo/tent thing at the side.


----------



## Red-1 (28 September 2018)




----------



## honetpot (28 September 2018)

Nice to know they have spent the money wisely.
  It will need a HGV license to drive, will be classed as a commercial vehicle and need testing every six months. I hope they are going to give us a breakdown down of the costs for running it, Â£ per mile.
https://www.gov.uk/being-a-goods-vehicle-operator/exemptions
 One day it will make someone a posh camper


----------



## ester (28 September 2018)

I did wonder if they were making the 'stand people' sleep in it at least?!


----------



## Tiddlypom (28 September 2018)

Well, I wouldn't care to travel horses in it anyway, as the horse area sticks out unsupported behind the rear axle. It would give them a poor ride. 

It's an expensive and useless white elephant.


----------



## onemoretime (28 September 2018)

HectorTTerry said:



			It's really sad to hear that yet again staff are treated badly in the BHS. The CEO does not care about individuals nor their well being. People are disposable. And yet people are petrified of speaking out because she has so much control. The cost to members' for the high staff turnover is disgusting - not only the cost of the recruitment agents and advertising but the cost of the knowledge that is lost. Why is the BHS not focusing its efforts on horse welfare? Instead it spends an unusually large amount of money on paying people off to keep quiet. I'd like to know exactly how much the BHS has spent on legal fees and how many agreements have been put together. It's not normally activity for such a small charity (in terms of number of employees). I'd also propose that Horse & Hound investigates. After all, it's gone awfully quiet since the BEF independent report that uncovered bullying by the member bodies. Something has to be done. It's too sad to see people who genuinely care about horses being treated so dreadfully. I've even heard that one individual was close to suicide because of their treatment at the BHS. I'm sorry... but that's just not acceptable. People's lives are at stake here!
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps the Charity Commission needs to be informed


----------



## GHamlet75 (28 September 2018)

Â£138,000 for a horsebox that doesn't even carry horses? Am I missing something? Is that really the best use of CHARITY funds? According to Lynn Petersen's article (I'm so angry at H&H for their sloppy journalism) - it's being used to "go to schools to show children equestrian career opportunities". If this was true it would be heart warming, but has anyone actually seen this at a school yet? Is this just more propaganda?


----------



## honetpot (28 September 2018)

From the web site most of visits for it so far seem to be in Scotland and preaching to the converted. I would be impressed if they attended horse sales and fairs and did equine welfare promotion but I would still question the running costs.


----------



## Red-1 (28 September 2018)

GHamlet75 said:



			Â£138,000 for a horsebox that doesn't even carry horses? Am I missing something? Is that really the best use of CHARITY funds? According to Lynn Petersen's article (I'm so angry at H&H for their sloppy journalism) - it's being used to "go to schools to show children equestrian career opportunities". If this was true it would be heart warming, but has anyone actually seen this at a school yet? Is this just more propaganda?
		
Click to expand...

Having had to take a horse lorry to a fair few schools, most have inadequate parking for such a vehicle. We commonly had to park round the corner or whatever, which rather defeats the object f having the flash lorry.

I just can't see it is fit for purpose with those incredibly steep steps and narrow doorway. I can't see how they will fit an audience and speakers in for talks etc.


----------



## Lovethebeach (29 September 2018)

Lets not forget they have employed a full time driver for the lorry. If that person is staying away with the vehicle salary would be another 40k plus. Will be next lot of accounts before running costs will be revealed. Not a user friendly or inviting layout either. Another long term member who is NOT impressed with how the society is progressing. I really do not see BHS as a welfare charity any more, they do not support any needy horses that I can see.


----------



## JanetGeorge (29 September 2018)

Ooh - I wish we'd had that at Badminton when I was there for the BHS YEARS ago. But I was tight on their behalf.  We had a teensy little hired caravan for 4 of us to bunk down in (cheaper than B&B).  And it was the wettest Badminton I think they'd ever had that year.  Hundreds of cars wouldn't start (including mine.)  But then, back then we had a nice little rescue centre, were rehoming rescues to good homes.  Seems that was too costly.


----------



## Beausmate (29 September 2018)

It's a ridiculous vehicle for that purpose.  Horsebox?  Where's the ramp?  It's basically a bus with appalling accessibility.

I'll not be renewing membership.


----------



## Andalusiandreams (29 September 2018)

As a former long standing member of staff of the BHS I have seen so many decent members of staff leave because of harassment, bullying and politics. There are currently many members of staff who are too scared to speak up for fear of losing their jobs. The turnover is incredible and the amount of money wasted on compromise agreements and pay offs is disgusting. The IT system is massively flawed, the â€˜newâ€™ education system is based around making money and everytime the staff on the ground raise an issue it is ignored. It is those who â€˜answer the phonesâ€™ to the â€˜great unwashedâ€™ as a former Director once called the loyal members who really care, who are loyal to the core values of the charity and yet go ignored on a daily basis. Very pleased to have left but ever so sad it has come to this. Something needs to be done.


----------



## GHamlet75 (29 September 2018)

Andalusiandreams said:



			As a former long standing member of staff of the BHS I have seen so many decent members of staff leave because of harassment, bullying and politics. There are currently many members of staff who are too scared to speak up for fear of losing their jobs. The turnover is incredible and the amount of money wasted on compromise agreements and pay offs is disgusting. The IT system is massively flawed, the â€˜newâ€™ education system is based around making money and everytime the staff on the ground raise an issue it is ignored. It is those who â€˜answer the phonesâ€™ to the â€˜great unwashedâ€™ as a former Director once called the loyal members who really care, who are loyal to the core values of the charity and yet go ignored on a daily basis. Very pleased to have left but ever so sad it has come to this. Something needs to be done.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for speaking out Andalusiandreams. It's not easy for employees or ex employees to speak out but now is the time. This can not continue. Thank you for being so brave


----------



## GHamlet75 (29 September 2018)

Who is monitoring how hard earned donations to the BHS are being used? There are rumours that the puppet seen at Badminton cost over Â£20,000. It also takes 3 people to operate it. Yet to see it out at subsequent events. BHS are spending their donations like money grows on trees. JanetGeorge - Very different from your time at the BHS! I wonder what the return on investment is for the puppet and horsebox?


----------



## Red-1 (29 September 2018)

Andalusiandreams said:



			As a former long standing member of staff of the BHS I have seen so many decent members of staff leave because of harassment, bullying and politics. There are currently many members of staff who are too scared to speak up for fear of losing their jobs. The turnover is incredible and the amount of money wasted on compromise agreements and pay offs is disgusting. The IT system is massively flawed, the â€˜newâ€™ education system is based around making money and everytime the staff on the ground raise an issue it is ignored. It is those who â€˜answer the phonesâ€™ to the â€˜great unwashedâ€™ as a former Director once called the loyal members who really care, who are loyal to the core values of the charity and yet go ignored on a daily basis. Very pleased to have left but ever so sad it has come to this. Something needs to be done.
		
Click to expand...

I almost clicked like, as I like that you dare to speak out now you have left, but I can't bring myself to click like as it is awful reading. I hope you are happy wherever you work now.


----------



## JanetGeorge (29 September 2018)

Well - I am wading my way through a massive dossier - covering things that have gone wrong since the female version of Donald Trump became CE.  By blood pressure is rising by the minute!


----------



## JulesRules (29 September 2018)

As members what can we do?


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (29 September 2018)

Janet, am thinking an EGM ought to be thought of.  Let us know your thoughts on all you have, once you have been through it.


----------



## JanetGeorge (29 September 2018)

The problem with an EGM - although it would be easy to requisition - it would be easy enough for her to gather enough proxies to throw it into touch.    National publicity in the mainstream media is probably the first step - need to find the 'right' journalist and sleect the 'sexiest' bit of the dossier to get a GOOD story.  And of course, find the 'right' people who are prepared to go public - it will be a brave step for most.


----------



## DD (29 September 2018)

H&H could run a story .


----------



## Tiddlypom (30 September 2018)

Downton Dame said:



			H&H could run a story .
		
Click to expand...

Indeed they could, and should. 

Do they have the balls to do so? I doubt it somehow...


----------



## JanetGeorge (30 September 2018)

After the ecent article, it would apear that H&H might not want to take LP head-on, and the serious national media (Telegraph, Guardian etc) are more likely to grab the attention of the Charity Commissioners (and ACAS.)


----------



## GHamlet75 (30 September 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Well - I am wading my way through a massive dossier - covering things that have gone wrong since the female version of Donald Trump became CE.  By blood pressure is rising by the minute!
		
Click to expand...

 The first time I heard someone call the CE a narcissist I thought it couldn't be true. However I recently came across this article and I can identify every method that she uses https://thepowerofsilence.co/11-manipulation-methods-narcissists-use-get-inside-head/. It's very similar to Donald Trump - particularly when she claims everything is fake news. There are too many facts that are coming out to continue to claim fake news


----------



## onemoretime (30 September 2018)

Lovethebeach said:



			Lets not forget they have employed a full time driver for the lorry. If that person is staying away with the vehicle salary would be another 40k plus. Will be next lot of accounts before running costs will be revealed. Not a user friendly or inviting layout either. Another long term member who is NOT impressed with how the society is progressing. I really do not see BHS as a welfare charity any more, they do not support any needy horses that I can see.
		
Click to expand...

  Agree with this.


----------



## Art Nouveau (30 September 2018)

I'm currently a BHS member. This thread was making me think I should cancel it in protest but with the comments about what members can do/an EGM I'm wondering would it be better to stay and see if there'll be some action I can take as a member.


----------



## HectorTTerry (1 October 2018)

Sorry to go back to the accounts again (http://apps.charitycommission.gov.u...210504&SubsidiaryNumber=0&DocType=AccountList) but I want to understand how our donations are being used and I believe figures talk facts.

To recap, we have identified last year, BHS spent Â£70k on termination and Â£105,629 on legal, professional and audit fees. As there was such an increase from the previous year (+220%), we can assume that these costs are unforeseen costs, therefore they are not standard legal, professional or audit fees. Are these additional costs attributed to tribunal costs, composing confidentiality agreements, resource into investigations and keeping allegations under wraps?

I appreciate the above is speculation.

However, let us find some facts. The BHS cannot deny the high turnover of staff. For the voluntary sector the average staff turnover in 2017 was 10.9% (XpertHR). Within one of the largest departments in the BHS, I am led to believe that 33% of the staff left in 2017, and this year already over 50% have left the same department. I am also led to believe that 5 directors have resigned their position within an 18-month period (XpertHR quoted 3.1% turnover for management in 2017).   

Even if half of the above is true (does anyone know where staff turnover is captured?), this highlights a significant problem. Why are so many people leaving? One of the leading recruitment consultants in the UK (Monster) states that bullying can result in greater employee turnover. I also reference again that an independent report on the BEF revealed there is bullying by the member bodies. Who heads up one of the key member bodies? The CE of BHS. (If any of you missed this please read the following â€“ the BBC covered this here https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/equestrian/43409111 and even Horse & Hound covered this https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...ependent-review-bullying-elitism-found-646843 for the full report read here https://www.bef.co.uk/repository/do...ederation_Independent_Review_Final_Report.pdf, https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/equestrian/43409111)  

I believe bullying has to be the reason for the high turnover of staff in the BHS. 

However, back to my original point. The reason for wanting to keep quoting the accounts is because this is factual evidence and publicly available for us all to see. If we are to get to the truth, we have to gather facts. 

Does anyone have any idea how we can calculate the recruitment costs? I cannot decide whether this would sit within HR or within the individual departments?

Letâ€™s get the true picture of how our donations are being spent, why so many people are being forced to sign confidentiality agreements and why so many people are voting with their feet in regard to the way the BHS is being led. 

 If anyone has any other ideas for getting all of the hard facts together, please keep this thread going


----------



## JanetGeorge (1 October 2018)

I am still trying to figure the increase in staff at the top end.  I remember it well from my day - there was Chief exec (Hywel Davies - until he was sacked), me as Head of Pr/Politics, heads of Approvals, Access, Education, Riding Schools and Safety - and of course a Head of Finance and the Book Shop Manager.  That was it.  Each had a small team - 2-4 people.  Then there were Regional Managers, and Area PRO's.  When I took over as Acting CE, I wasn't 'replaced' - the fantastic Nicola Gregory just took on more work and got an extra assistant.  Everyone I worked with was capable and good to get on with - and we worked as a team  British Horse was produced 'in house' - apart from the actual printing.  Now that WAS 18+years ago.  Income has increased considerably (doubled) - how much of that is REAL money???  membership hasn't increased anywhere NEAR that much.   Looking at top paid staff - one on 50,000-60,000, and 2 on 40-50.000.  Last year, there were 6 on more than Â£60,000 and 1 on over Â£130,000.  Inflation??  When you look at a comparison with other leading horse welfare charities, the BHS - with an income of 101/4 million - highest paid % of income - 1.41% - the Blue Cross, RSPCA, Pony Club, WHW, Brook, - ALL have much lower figures (although most have more income.)  The Pony Club with an income 3 million more, has 0.56% as highest paid %.

And the number of senior employees coming and going is frightening.  With most of them being forced to sign confidentiality agreements, of course.  That sort of nonsense was unheard of in my day.  IF you can't sort out a problem with a staff member, particularly one you appointed, you go through the proper routes - you don't pay them off to shut up!!  Obviously a small part of the work done should be confidential - dealing with welfare cases that may have a court case pending is just one - but the obsession with confidentiality in a MEMBER organisation that is a CHARITY stinks to high hell.


----------



## honetpot (1 October 2018)

Often when there is a problem with your company where its likely to go to a tribunal which could get expensive and either side could win, but it could end up in the news you are offered a financial package. If you take it they have to pay for your solicitors advice and you sign an agreement that its never discussed. They can also not discuss it or give you a bad reference, that is part of the deal.
 So the extra legal costs and termination fees probably come from there. Sometimes its just easier to take the money than fight. The fact they had so much turnover in one dept makes me think it was bullying, and it was rife.
  The problem with solving the problem this way is that the bulling continues. It makes me think that the bully is senior management and there is no process put in place to monitor their performance and put in conditions of their future performance, so they can sack them without giving them a huge pay out.
 Where is a journalist when you need one???


----------



## GHamlet75 (1 October 2018)

I have heard that the reason why the CE wasnâ€™t present at some of the key events this year (such as Badminton and Windsor) was because she was being investigated for bullying. However, when the bullying comes from the top how is it ever going to be fairly and independently investigated?

In my opinion there is no smoke without fire. I agree with you Honetpot, we need a good journalist who can find the truth.


----------



## Andalusiandreams (1 October 2018)

GHamlet75 said:



			I have heard that the reason why the CE wasnâ€™t present at some of the key events this year (such as Badminton and Windsor) was because she was being investigated for bullying. However, when the bullying comes from the top how is it ever going to be fairly and independently investigated?

In my opinion there is no smoke without fire. I agree with you Honetpot, we need a good journalist who can find the truth.
		
Click to expand...

That is sadly true although I believe the outcome was there was no case to answer to


----------



## ester (1 October 2018)

a puppet


----------



## Orangehorse (1 October 2018)

Gosh, this is sad and sorry reading.  I too have been a BHS member for years and I am always trying to defend the organisation and encourage people to join, but to say that it is "disappointing" to read the report is a massive understatement.


----------



## honetpot (1 October 2018)

Andalusiandreams said:



			That is sadly true although I believe the outcome was there was no case to answer to
		
Click to expand...

Its really hard to prove as that sort of behaviour is often only shown to the people who are being bullied, so evidence is hard to come by.The people doing it are often sociopaths put up a good front.


----------



## GHamlet75 (1 October 2018)

Orangehorse said:



			Gosh, this is sad and sorry reading.  I too have been a BHS member for years and I am always trying to defend the organisation and encourage people to join, but to say that it is "disappointing" to read the report is a massive understatement.
		
Click to expand...

Is is very sad Orangehorse. However thanks for joining in and letting us know your thoughts. Everyone... we have reached over 11,000 views! This is fantastic news but we still have a long way to go. Please share this thread with all your friends and family. A big thanks to JanetGeorge for starting this! I don't expect everyone to join in but if we can help people make informed decisions then I believe we are helping. However, most importantly I am hoping if we can get enough support we can prevent people like Wendy being unfairly treated. Keep this thread going!


----------



## Rowreach (1 October 2018)

So JG returns to the forum after a long absence, simply to start this thread, and then new people (clearly ones with a vested interest in the topic) arrive and start stirring the pot .....

I was the first to reply to the thread, I said the BHS was a clique and it always has been, from way back, as those of you who were involved with it should acknowledge.

Financial improprieties??  No doubt.  It's the same with other large horsey organisations - in fact I tried to expose some of those a few years ago, and got resolutely silenced, having spent a lot in legal fees and losing business in the process (back to the clique thing there).

I started a thread on here a while back, having seen the article in the BHS magazine about the large publicity wagon, the recruitment of a full time driver, and the intention of buying another, smaller box.  Not much interest then.

How about a letter to Mr Clunes?  I'm sure he wouldn't want to be associated with an organisation that is as rife with discontent and irregularities as people are suggesting?


----------



## JanetGeorge (1 October 2018)

Ruddy 'quote' function still not working properly - so in answer to you, Rowreach.  Sorry I've been absent - partly health, partly the fact the old software drove me bonkers, and partly because my FB pages kept me busy when I was able to get the time to sit at the desk!  I don't think cliquishness is much of a problem at the BHS - perhaps more so at British Dressage from some of the stuff I'm hearing.  But I suspect the problem is the same in both areas (and others).  Power - and misuse of power.  And people either don't care enough - or give in under pressure.  This song says it all.


----------



## GHamlet75 (1 October 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			I am still trying to figure the increase in staff at the top end.  I remember it well from my day - there was Chief exec (Hywel Davies - until he was sacked), me as Head of Pr/Politics, heads of Approvals, Access, Education, Riding Schools and Safety - and of course a Head of Finance and the Book Shop Manager.  That was it.  Each had a small team - 2-4 people.  Then there were Regional Managers, and Area PRO's.  When I took over as Acting CE, I wasn't 'replaced' - the fantastic Nicola Gregory just took on more work and got an extra assistant.  Everyone I worked with was capable and good to get on with - and we worked as a team  British Horse was produced 'in house' - apart from the actual printing.  Now that WAS 18+years ago.  Income has increased considerably (doubled) - how much of that is REAL money???  membership hasn't increased anywhere NEAR that much.   Looking at top paid staff - one on 50,000-60,000, and 2 on 40-50.000.  Last year, there were 6 on more than Â£60,000 and 1 on over Â£130,000.  Inflation??  When you look at a comparison with other leading horse welfare charities, the BHS - with an income of 101/4 million - highest paid % of income - 1.41% - the Blue Cross, RSPCA, Pony Club, WHW, Brook, - ALL have much lower figures (although most have more income.)  The Pony Club with an income 3 million more, has 0.56% as highest paid %.

And the number of senior employees coming and going is frightening.  With most of them being forced to sign confidentiality agreements, of course.  That sort of nonsense was unheard of in my day.  IF you can't sort out a problem with a staff member, particularly one you appointed, you go through the proper routes - you don't pay them off to shut up!!  Obviously a small part of the work done should be confidential - dealing with welfare cases that may have a court case pending is just one - but the obsession with confidentiality in a MEMBER organisation that is a CHARITY stinks to high hell.
		
Click to expand...

Current senior management team includes: Chief Executive, Chief Operating Officer, Director of Finance, Director of HR, Director of Education, Director of Membership, Director of Safety, Director of Access, Director of Welfare, Director of Marketing, Director of IT, Director of Fundraising, Director of Business Development. Unsure of the current staff count but it was last quoted as 120 permanent employees. A rather top heavy structure don't you think?


----------



## JanetGeorge (1 October 2018)

Definitely!  One would expect a 'Director' would have a team and a deputy - hell, we just called them a 'head of',  I don't remember if we had anyone on HR.  Certainly didn't have a Marketing or Business Development head.


----------



## Jangigs (2 October 2018)

A top heavy organisation far too many chiefs and not enough indians. One director actually said the reason they were given the job was because the CEO knew she could control her. I feel having been privy to what happened the present CEO ended up in her position by stealth. Started by volunteering to help with marketing, coopted on to board of trustees. Next came demise of Chairman and guess who became chairman. Finally out with the then CEO. The vacancy not advertised, her words, she was asked by board to run the organisation. Her exact words. I witnessed so many good staff leave and a culture of fear grow


----------



## JanetGeorge (2 October 2018)

It's weird just how many lousy CE's BHS has had in the last 20 years.  Of course, in the '90s it was a much wide organisation - until BD, BE, etc went solo.  HD had to try to handle the aftermath and he was probably the first to try to rig Board elections - and of course was sacked.  I was the whistle blower and for a while, it worked.  Then ruddy KD (I jumped before she started.)  But she drove out some VERY good people very quickly.  Not sure what happened after her before the current witch wriggled in.  There was certainly NO communication with members about anything important.  And good people were driven out because they tried to wriggle out from under her thumb.  People are coming to me with more 'dirt' - it will take time to build a solid case - but I do NOT intend to give up!!  If you can help, please message me or e-mail - janetgeoge@irish-draught.net.  I WILL respect totally any information given in confidence.


----------



## sywell (2 October 2018)

i had been a member of the Horse and Pony Breeds committee my first chair was Col York then JLC and finally the past President of the BHS Pat Campbell. We were informed that the committee was to be wound up on the grounds that as we represented the interests of all PIOs and the BHS only did ID horses and ponies. Having read this forum it is clear that as the policy of the committee was to have presentations and discuss issues and then go back to our Board or Executive with this knowledge but we did not make decisions that were imposed on the committee. At every meeting every member was asked about current welfare issues. I think the BHS realised we did not necessarily support the party line and were unlikely to be manipulated. Miss the BHS Policy Director L Hackett


----------



## GHamlet75 (2 October 2018)

sywell said:



			i had been a member of the Horse and Pony Breeds committee my first chair was Col York then JLC and finally the past President of the BHS Pat Campbell. We were informed that the committee was to be wound up on the grounds that as we represented the interests of all PIOs and the BHS only did ID horses and ponies. Having read this forum it is clear that as the policy of the committee was to have presentations and discuss issues and then go back to our Board or Executive with this knowledge but we did not make decisions that were imposed on the committee. At every meeting every member was asked about current welfare issues. I think the BHS realised we did not necessarily support the party line and were unlikely to be manipulated. Miss the BHS Policy Director L Hackett
		
Click to expand...

I think a lot of people miss him.


----------



## Velcrobum (2 October 2018)

http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/p...ved-in-a-horse-riding-accident-at-the-weekend

Karma ???


----------



## Annagain (2 October 2018)

I know there's also a lot of discontent at the way BRC was effectively taken over by BHS and is a lot less accountable to its members as a result.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (2 October 2018)

honetpot said:



			Often when there is a problem with your company where its likely to go to a tribunal which could get expensive and either side could win, but it could end up in the news you are offered a financial package. If you take it they have to pay for your solicitors advice and you sign an agreement that its never discussed. They can also not discuss it or give you a bad reference, that is part of the deal.
So the extra legal costs and termination fees probably come from there. Sometimes its just easier to take the money than fight. The fact they had so much turnover in one dept makes me think it was bullying, and it was rife.
  The problem with solving the problem this way is that the bulling continues. It makes me think that the bully is senior management and there is no process put in place to monitor their performance and put in conditions of their future performance, so they can sack them without giving them a huge pay out.
Where is a journalist when you need one???
		
Click to expand...


An excellent summary, I would think.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (2 October 2018)

Velcrobum said:



http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/p...ved-in-a-horse-riding-accident-at-the-weekend

Karma ???
		
Click to expand...


Whilst, I feel sorry for any-one who sustains injuries in a riding accident, might this provide an opportunity for someone else to get in there and sort out what is going on?


----------



## JanetGeorge (2 October 2018)

lol, I'll bet most of the staff are quietly hoping for complications!


----------



## only_me (2 October 2018)

Velcrobum said:



http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/p...ved-in-a-horse-riding-accident-at-the-weekend

Karma ???
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s never right to be pleased of someone elseâ€™s misfortune, especially regarding their health.


----------



## Rowreach (2 October 2018)

only_me said:



			Itâ€™s never right to be pleased of someone elseâ€™s misfortune, especially regarding their health.
		
Click to expand...

I agree.  I'm finding the whole thread a bit unpleasant tbh.


----------



## JanetGeorge (2 October 2018)

No - I guess it isn't 'nice' to make a joke about someone else's injuries - but then it isn't nice to harass, and bully dedicated staff either!


----------



## only_me (2 October 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			No - I guess it isn't 'nice' to make a joke about someone else's injuries - but then it isn't nice to harass, and bully dedicated staff either!
		
Click to expand...

2 wrongs doesnâ€™t make it right.


----------



## Rowreach (2 October 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			No - I guess it isn't 'nice' to make a joke about someone else's injuries - but then it isn't nice to harass, and bully dedicated staff either!
		
Click to expand...

But it's ok to start a thread on a public forum, accusing someone of all sorts of stuff and inciting unpleasant comments about them?

I find this whole thing deeply unpleasant and unprofessional.


----------



## honetpot (2 October 2018)

Actually most of this thread is about the reasons for the high turnover of staff, and the large amount of money spent on termination payments and legal fees, plus the puchase of a modified horse lorry for a Â£138,000. This public knowledge in the 2017 accounts. As a long standing BHS member with no axe to grind, I would like to know why.
  Without any further information on why there is a high turnover of staff and what appears to be a huge amount of middle management people, speculate as to the cause. I am sorry if that offends you and you find it unpleasant, but in no way is it unprofessional. Perhaps if there were some answers people would stop asking.
   A simple plan of how to reduce staff turnover and address costs, perhaps. As it is there are more holes in the accounts than an old woolly vest, but seen as they no longer hold an AGM its difficult to see how ordinary members can act. To kick off I would like a Â£ per mile/ per event running cost of the lorry, with the business case for it.


----------



## honetpot (2 October 2018)

Perhaps we could have a Where's Wally thread for every time the bus/lorry is seen out.


----------



## Rowreach (2 October 2018)

honetpot said:



			Actually most of this thread is about the reasons for the high turnover of staff, and the large amount of money spent on termination payments and legal fees, plus the puchase of a modified horse lorry for a Â£138,000. This public knowledge in the 2017 accounts. As a long standing BHS member with no axe to grind, I would like to know why.
  Without any further information on why there is a high turnover of staff and what appears to be a huge amount of middle management people, speculate as to the cause. I am sorry if that offends you and you find it unpleasant, but in no way is it unprofessional. Perhaps if there were some answers people would stop asking.
   A simple plan of how to reduce staff turnover and address costs, perhaps. As it is there are more holes in the accounts than an old woolly vest, but seen as they no longer hold an AGM its difficult to see how ordinary members can act. To kick off I would like a Â£ per mile/ per event running cost of the lorry, with the business case for it.
		
Click to expand...

Yes exactly, and the reasons for the high turnover of staff are being placed at the feet of one particular person (who I don't know/have had no dealings with) and have been extremely personal.  Starting a thread on a horse forum (and indeed for several people, joining a forum for the specific purpose of commenting on that thread) to have a go at one person in an organisation which those people are clearly all involved with in some way is, by any definition, unprofessional.

Bullying takes many forms.  Saying that someone injuring themselves in a riding fall is "karma" or that staff at the BHS will be hoping for complications is abhorrent imv.


----------



## JanetGeorge (2 October 2018)

But it's ok to start a thread on a public forum, accusing someone of all sorts of stuff and inciting unpleasant comments about them?

I find this whole thing deeply unpleasant and unprofessional.
		
Click to expand...

Well how do you suggest it should be handled, Rowreach?  A letter to the Board, perhaps??  It's been done - and got someone sacked!  And a lot more people bullied and threatened.  Maybe I am wasting my time (I can live with that); maybe the people who are helping are also wasting their time (they can live with that too.)  What we CAN'T live with is more bullying and harrassment of hard-working staff - and what SHOULD be a very good organisation losing support and credibility!  If you think you know another way, please share it!


----------



## Rowreach (2 October 2018)

As I have said twice before, the BHS is a clique and always has been, although you say it isn't .....  But the trouble with any cliquey organisation is that it gradually becomes unaccountable to its members - and then when something goes wrong, and the people within the organisation look to stop it happening, it is no longer possible to do it along normal channels.

I suggest you involve the Charity Commission, or Martin Clunes, who although a figurehead is high profile enough not to want to let something like this be swept under the mat, lest it creeps out again unexpectedly.

With your many years of experience in large organisations JG, I am surprised you would go down the route of personal attacks on a public forum.


----------



## JanetGeorge (2 October 2018)

No - I totally disagree with you about it being a clique.  Martin Clunes and the Charity Commissioners are on my list - as are a couple of national journalists.  But to get action from all, I need evidence and people prepared to stand up.  That is the purpose of this thread - and I'm happy to say it is working.  If there was a better route, be assured I would have taken it.  The Charity Commissioners are limited in what they can do in this sort of case.  Martin Clunes is a high profile 'figurehead' - also a relatively new horse owner and lover.  He would want to be VERY sure of detail before a high profile resignation - or a demand for a public inquiry.  And national journalists I know a bit about - they want sexy FACTS - and evidence - and people prepared to be quoted.  And of course it needs members to be AWARE, asking questions, and perhaps attending an EGM.


----------



## Red-1 (2 October 2018)

Rowreach said:



			Saying that someone injuring themselves in a riding fall is "karma" or that staff at the BHS will be hoping for complications is abhorrent imv.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with this. Anyone who rides horses will, one day, fall off. There but for the grace of God go all of us.

I am no fan of the way the BHS operates. I find it unbusinesslike. I think it is cliquey and inefficient. I have found that some people in it are unprofessional. BUT I would never revel in the injury of anyone.

I do not know the CEO, never heard of her before this thread. I do not know what is happening within the BHS. I do know that sometimes when you try to change longstanding cliquey organisations then it is easy to claim bullying. People do not like change. I think the BHS does need change. I too would like more transparency to see what is going on in this charity. If it were a private company I would have less interest. Maybe he CEO is unpopular because she is driving change? Who knows? Not me.


----------



## Tiddlypom (2 October 2018)

As a BHS Gold member I'd like to think that the charity I have been a member of for many years continues to be worthy of my long time respect for it. It certainly sounds like there are serious issues currently within the BHS, but launching character attacks on named officials (past and present) on an open forum is going to end messily. JG, thanks for taking up the cudgel, but maybe modify your tactics?


----------



## JanetGeorge (2 October 2018)

Sadly, modified tactics would mean it all went on the same way.  There ARE messy possibilities (my OH is worried I'll get sued for libel - but I'm not because telling the truth is NOT libel.)    Given the FACTS I have been reading in the past couple of days, there is no doubt in my mind that BHS needs a new Chairman, a few new Board members (like the ones who were blocked this year because they were considered 'unsuitable'), a new Chief Executive and perhaps a few other staff replacements too.  A strong Board that does it's job and ensures things are run properly would be a great start.


----------



## Rowreach (2 October 2018)

Actually you can most definitely be sued for defamation, including stuff that has been written on an internet forum.  It will be up to you to prove the validity of your statements in court.  Probably not worth testing really.


Taken from the new Ts&Cs:


*Clause 4 - Users Obligations*
4.4 Do not post defamatory or inappropriate messages.4.5

*Clause 6 - Termination*
6.1 If a User fails to adhere to these Terms & Conditions, Horse & Hound Online reserves the right to terminate the User's participation on the Forum.

6.2 Users who posts defamatory, obscene, racial or otherwise offensive material on this Forum acknowledge that this may expose them to the risk of legal action (whether civil or criminal) being taken against them.


----------



## SO1 (2 October 2018)

If staff are being bullied it is terrible.

I do think some of the outputs of the BHS have improved over the last few years, I like the outreach work they have done with disadvantaged children and also the friends at the end scheme. They also seem to have engaged with British Cycling recently and the ebulletins have improved with more welfare articles and tips rather than just reporting on what Committees and regions were doing mainly around competitions and training which I found a little dull.

In terms of Charity governance it appears that the CEO was the Chair of Trustees at one point and then was promoted to CEO. It is quite unusual for a Trustee to become the CEO. I can understand internal promotions from amongst the staff but quite unusual for volunteer board member to take on the most senior paid role. It must have been very difficult for the Board Members to interview the Chair for the role of the CEO and not show unconscious bias.

The CEO will report to the Board, complaints about the CEO should go to the Chair of Board. Members wanting to complain about the CEO could also raise their concerns with the President of the Society. 

Governance is a real issue for many charities when those responsible for the charity money and governance are ultimately elected volunteers who may be passionate about the cause but have little or no experience of managing a charity or any sort of organisation of this size. 

What they really need are a couple of lay trustees who have no interest in horses at all but who come from a senior management background and can help with unbiased advice. It is the way to go for good charity governance having some trustees who will not benefit from the work of the charity.

As members we can ask questions for more clarity on the professional fees and what they were for. We can raise concerns about the high staff turnover. What we cannot do is accuse people of bullying without evidence as that may be considered bullying as well.


----------



## JanetGeorge (2 October 2018)

Gee, ta, Rowreach.  I have considerable experience regarding the laws of defamation.  I am also aware of H&H's terms.  My risk (and you still haven't come up with any useful ideas!)


----------



## JanetGeorge (2 October 2018)

Believe me, SO1 - I have a LOT of evidence - written - about bullying and harassment of staff; and staff ready to speak out.


----------



## Rowreach (2 October 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Gee, ta, Rowreach.  I have considerable experience regarding the laws of defamation.  I am also aware of H&H's terms.  My risk (and you still haven't come up with any useful ideas!)
		
Click to expand...

I don't have to.  I'm merely saying that this method isn't a good one.


----------



## JanetGeorge (2 October 2018)

Gee, Rowreach.  It's so easy to say 'that's wrong', 'that's bad', 'I wouldn't do it that way.'  But please keep on wasting our time - at least it keeps this thread near the top where it will be seen by people who care - and who want to help.


----------



## NatashaE (3 October 2018)

As the former Marketing & Communications Director, there are people within the British Horse Society who I still care deeply for. Unfortunately, our actions whether positive or negative on this forum, impact those that continue to work there. For that I am deeply sorry. However as I have already publicly acknowledged my thoughts on the treatment of Wendy Suddes, I will share these thoughts with you in this forum - I'm appalled at how Wendy Suddes has been treated at The British Horse Society. I have never met anyone so dedicated and committed to ensuring the welfare of the horse is paramount. For the future success of The British Horse Society the truth must come out.


----------



## Jangigs (3 October 2018)

*z*


NatashaE said:



			As the former Marketing & Communications Director, there are people within the British Horse Society who I still care deeply for. Unfortunately, our actions whether positive or negative on this forum, impact those that continue to work there. For that I am deeply sorry. However as I have already publicly acknowledged my thoughts on the treatment of Wendy Suddes, I will share these thoughts with you in this forum - I'm appalled at how Wendy Suddes has been treated at The British Horse Society. I have never met anyone so dedicated and committed to ensuring the welfare of the horse is paramount. For the future success of The British Horse Society the truth must come out.
		
Click to expand...

I totally agree. Wendy was my colleague too and horses are at the heart of everything she does. She worked tirelessly for their welfare in every area. She is knowledgeable, caring and hard working. Always there at what ever time of day. She is a brave lady who spoke out for the good of the Society she believed in and cared for


----------



## SO1 (3 October 2018)

I know Union membership is a little controversial due to their political alliances but if there is a problem that affects the remaining staff then they might want to consider joining a union, free legal advice and representation should they need it.

https://worksmart.org.uk/tools/union-finder

https://www.unitelegalservices.org/services/employment-law


----------



## GHamlet75 (3 October 2018)

I think the BHS will always be in debt of the work that Wendy did. Come rain or shine she was out there dedicating her life to helping horses. I donâ€™t think in the 17 years that she worked there that she ever slept! Itâ€™s hard to pick out highlights from her career but I think her work to set up the castration clinics made a significant difference to horse welfare.


----------



## McFluff (3 October 2018)

GHamlet75 said:



			Current senior management team includes: Chief Executive, Chief Operating Officer, Director of Finance, Director of HR, Director of Education, Director of Membership, Director of Safety, Director of Access, Director of Welfare, Director of Marketing, Director of IT, Director of Fundraising, Director of Business Development. Unsure of the current staff count but it was last quoted as 120 permanent employees. A rather top heavy structure don't you think?
		
Click to expand...




SO1 said:



			If staff are being bullied it is terrible.

I do think some of the outputs of the BHS have improved over the last few years, I like the outreach work they have done with disadvantaged children and also the friends at the end scheme. They also seem to have engaged with British Cycling recently and the ebulletins have improved with more welfare articles and tips rather than just reporting on what Committees and regions were doing mainly around competitions and training which I found a little dull.

In terms of Charity governance it appears that the CEO was the Chair of Trustees at one point and then was promoted to CEO. It is quite unusual for a Trustee to become the CEO. I can understand internal promotions from amongst the staff but quite unusual for volunteer board member to take on the most senior paid role. It must have been very difficult for the Board Members to interview the Chair for the role of the CEO and not show unconscious bias.

The CEO will report to the Board, complaints about the CEO should go to the Chair of Board. Members wanting to complain about the CEO could also raise their concerns with the President of the Society.

Governance is a real issue for many charities when those responsible for the charity money and governance are ultimately elected volunteers who may be passionate about the cause but have little or no experience of managing a charity or any sort of organisation of this size.

What they really need are a couple of lay trustees who have no interest in horses at all but who come from a senior management background and can help with unbiased advice. It is the way to go for good charity governance having some trustees who will not benefit from the work of the charity.

As members we can ask questions for more clarity on the professional fees and what they were for. We can raise concerns about the high staff turnover. What we cannot do is accuse people of bullying without evidence as that may be considered bullying as well.
		
Click to expand...

I write this as a long standing BHS gold member, I have no other allegiance.  I am a Director for a charity (not horses), and as a comparison, we have a turnover of Â£30M, a CEO and three directors, and 1000 staff (mostly front line delivery).  Our pay levels are below those quoted (and are benchmarked for the charity sector), so there are definitely some governance and operational issues that need addressing.  And, as a comparison, in my experience Â£70K would cover about 3 years of legal and settlement costs, so these seem very high - it should flag to the Board that they have issues that need addressing (along with high turnover etc.).  I have no idea why they have a Director of HR for such a small number of staff (at most they could have an experience advisor or manager, but probably more effective to outsource), and reading the ET summary, I am appalled by the obvious lack of either a) competence or b) influence that they have.  I genuinely believe that nobody with CIPD qualifications would have allowed that to get to that state - so they are either in the wrong role, or they are being controlled/stopped from doing things correctly.  If it is the latter, then that points to a horrible culture, which the current governance structure will not let them get to the bottom of.

Sadly for all concerned, if bullying is happening, it will be very difficult to prove or evidence.  Especially if it is at a senior level (or if it is rife in the culture and has become a general way of working).  It takes a lot of bravery to speak up, and it is a long and difficult journey - it shouldn't be, but IME it is as it is so difficult to get reliable evidence and robust enough governance to actually take action.  

For those of us who are members, our best action is perhaps to contact the President and just ask how comfortable are they with how the organisation is being operated (ref. to turnover, top heavy structure, rate of ET/legal claims).  This is such a sad situation - especially as it does appear that some really good work is happening too.


----------



## JanetGeorge (3 October 2018)

Thanks, McFluff.  You picked up a number of things that were to the forefront of my mind.  And you're right, quite a lot of good work is happening - but some CRAZY errors and misjudgements too.  It certainly isn't going to be easy to see this sorted.  The Board appears to be weak - and under the CEO's thumb.  Two Trustee vacancies were not filled this year because - although two Members were properly nominated - it was decided they were 'unsuitable'.  Goodness knows why - or even if there is a 'right' to decline properly nominated people for vacancies that exist.  (Trying to work THAT out in the constitution is doing my head in.)


----------



## honetpot (3 October 2018)

I


JanetGeorge said:



			Thanks, McFluff.  You picked up a number of things that were to the forefront of my mind.  And you're right, quite a lot of good work is happening - but some CRAZY errors and misjudgements too.  It certainly isn't going to be easy to see this sorted.  The Board appears to be weak - and under the CEO's thumb.  Two Trustee vacancies were not filled this year because - although two Members were properly nominated - it was decided they were 'unsuitable'.  Goodness knows why - or even if there is a 'right' to decline properly nominated people for vacancies that exist.  (Trying to work THAT out in the constitution is doing my head in.)
		
Click to expand...

 I thought the shoe was on the other foot, and the Trustees have overall control and responsibility. You have probably seen this.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/trustee-board-people-and-skills


----------



## JanetGeorge (3 October 2018)

lol, honetpot - I have seen it badly done, that's for sure.  The wrong actions for the wrong reasons!


----------



## honetpot (3 October 2018)

From the constitution.,
'Without prejudice to any statutory rights to requisition a General Meeting, a General Meeting 
of the Society may be requisitioned by twelve Voting Members of the Society writing jointly 
in  a  single  document  to  the  Chief  Executive.  A  General  Meeting  req uisitioned  under  this 
article 24.2 shall be held at such time and in such place as the Board shall appoint'
 We all know that people never go the an AGM, but to stop having all together seems strange.


----------



## JanetGeorge (3 October 2018)

ll, I still remember my first AGM as Acting CE - 3 days after HD was sacked. and HRH was chairing it.  I had known her for quite a while, first through RDA in Australia - and we had a nice little natter in the breaks - when votes were being counted - and when the ruddy fire alarm went off.  As I recall, there were about 40 members there in addition to regional and head office people.  Of course, the CE/Board usually have hundreds of proxy votes, so .....


----------



## GHamlet75 (4 October 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			ll, I still remember my first AGM as Acting CE - 3 days after HD was sacked. and HRH was chairing it.  I had known her for quite a while, first through RDA in Australia - and we had a nice little natter in the breaks - when votes were being counted - and when the ruddy fire alarm went off.  As I recall, there were about 40 members there in addition to regional and head office people.  Of course, the CE/Board usually have hundreds of proxy votes, so .....
		
Click to expand...



What's the difference between an AGM and an EGM? I've seen people mention both on this forum and I'm a bit confused!


----------



## JanetGeorge (4 October 2018)

AGM's are normally held every year, at about the same time, called by the Board.  They are routine.  An EGM (Extraordinary General Meeting) is normally requisitioned (demanded) by a number of members.


----------



## honetpot (4 October 2018)

They do not hold AGM's any more,
'Following a vote by members at the 2009 AGM, the Society no longer holds automatic Annual General Meetings. Extraordinary General Meetings (EGMs) will be held as and when necessary and members will be notified electronically where we have their email addresses, and in writing through British Horse.

 Election Board Meetings (EBMs) are held to announce results of Trustee elections and are also open to members. Although these meetings are usually brief, they provide an opportunity for members to meet Trustees and put questions to them in person'


----------



## onemoretime (4 October 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			lol, I'll bet most of the staff are quietly hoping for complications!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## GHamlet75 (5 October 2018)

But as members do we have any rights at any of these meetings?


----------



## JanetGeorge (5 October 2018)

lol, not a lot.  Of course, members CAN nominate potential Board members - what DID happen with these two vacancies.  I know there WERE two nominations  https://www.mi-nomination.com/bhs.  But neither was appointed.  https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00444742/officers


----------



## JanetGeorge (5 October 2018)

Good grief - it's NOT just the BHS with unhappy members.  BE is having an EGM on 22nd of this month.  To quote:  "as a result of 107 of our 15,800 members submitting a petition expressing no confidence in the Chairman and Chief Executive. We have a duty under our Articles of Association to hold an EGM if 100 signatures are submitted. We must also do so within a specified period of time and hence why the timing of the EGM is so close to the scheduled AGM."


----------



## Asha (5 October 2018)

I saw that Janet, any idea what its about ?


----------



## Velcrobum (5 October 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Good grief - it's NOT just the BHS with unhappy members.  BE is having an EGM on 22nd of this month.  To quote:  "as a result of 107 of our 15,800 members submitting a petition expressing no confidence in the Chairman and Chief Executive. We have a duty under our Articles of Association to hold an EGM if 100 signatures are submitted. We must also do so within a specified period of time and hence why the timing of the EGM is so close to the scheduled AGM."
		
Click to expand...

BD also has a lot of very unhappy members but for them to get an EGM it is 1700 signatures. I got the BE email this AM and have no idea what it is about, nothing on BE forum and as yet nothing on HHO.


----------



## JanetGeorge (5 October 2018)

Nope, Velcrobum - I checked the Articles of Association - definitely only 100 members needed to requisition an EGM.  Funny how these Chairmen and CEs are not apparently very good at their personal PR.


----------



## DabDab (5 October 2018)

This situation has obviously been going on for some time....why haven't previous staff ever set up an alternative organisation? An organisation that with no competition is a dangerous thing for staff because they are forced to put up and shut up if they want to carry on working in their field.


----------



## GHamlet75 (5 October 2018)

wow what is going on with the equestrian world?! Could BHS members do the same to call an EGM or would we have to get more than 100 members to write in?


----------



## honetpot (6 October 2018)

GHamlet75 said:



 wow what is going on with the equestrian world?! Could BHS members do the same to call an EGM or would we have to get more than 100 members to write in?
		
Click to expand...

From the BHS website,
From the constitution.,
*'Without prejudice to any statutory rights to requisition a General Meeting, a General Meeting
 of the Society may be requisitioned by twelve Voting Members of the Society writing jointly
 in  a  single  document  to  the  Chief  Executive*.  A  General  Meeting  req uisitioned  under  this
 article 24.2 shall be held at such time and in such place as the Board shall appoint'


----------



## GHamlet75 (6 October 2018)

Thanks honetpot. Regardless of whether it's an AGM or an EGM can members have any significant impact if we have concerns? I'm just not sure if we can make a positive influence going down that route?


----------



## JanetGeorge (7 October 2018)

The problem is - THEY decide when to have it.  They have to do it within a reasonable period - I think it's about 8 weeks - it'll probably end up being caled for 2nd January!  And of course with proxies .........


----------



## GHamlet75 (7 October 2018)

Of course!


----------



## HectorTTerry (7 October 2018)

I've read that the BHS Approved Centres are closing at an alarming rate (according to the annual report last year numbers dropped from 822 to 767), and yet my understanding is that the BHS is focusing its attentions on China where it can help the upper and middle classes who have recently discovered riding as a hobby. Is this really the future direction of The British Horse Society?


----------



## Tiddlypom (7 October 2018)

There's trouble at the Kennel Club too. The chair has resigned. What's going on with these organisations?

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/press-releases/2018/september/kennel-club-chairman-resigns/


----------



## JanetGeorge (7 October 2018)

"I've read that the BHS Approved Centres are closing at an alarming rate (according to the annual report last year numbers dropped from 822 to 767), "

How many closed - and how many just decided that the BHS just wasn't doing enough for them - particularly in relation to the COST of being BHS Approved.   Blackdyke Farm in Carlisle - run by John Collier BHSI,  was Approved for 35 years - he questioned fitness for purpose - and left the scheme.  Seems not to have hurt Blackdyke Farm at all.  I wonder how many others just felt it was NOT 'fit for purpose'.


----------



## HectorTTerry (7 October 2018)

I know a number of centres who have been crippled by business rates but you do make a very valid point JanetGeorge. I would like to know how many centres have decided that it's simply not worth having the BHS name anymore.


----------



## onemoretime (7 October 2018)

HectorTTerry said:



			I've read that the BHS Approved Centres are closing at an alarming rate (according to the annual report last year numbers dropped from 822 to 767), and yet my understanding is that the BHS is focusing its attentions on China where it can help the upper and middle classes who have recently discovered riding as a hobby. Is this really the future direction of The British Horse Society?
		
Click to expand...


----------



## EventingMum (7 October 2018)

I must admit feeling the approvals scheme is now very much aimed at the bigger, all singing, all dancing centres who are being rewarded for the huge investments they are able to make. The traditional, smaller schools used to be able to achieve highly commended status by having good working practices and high standards of horsemanship but not now.


----------



## Velcrobum (8 October 2018)

Up date on the BE EGM the signatories of the letter have just stated no confidence but no reason. I guess if really interested one would have to attend the meeting. I certainly would not give a proxy vote unless I knew what I was voting for.


----------



## GHamlet75 (8 October 2018)

No confidence? Wow...troubling times ahead for the equestrian world. At least we don't have to wait long to hear the outcome.


----------



## GHamlet75 (8 October 2018)

Hi everyone. To continue raising awareness, please keep sharing this with as many equestrian friends as possible. We're close to reaching 20,000 views!


----------



## honetpot (9 October 2018)

It must be something in the water. The Royal College of Nurses had a EGM and the committee lost a vote of no confidence, so they have gone away to review their position.
   I think the running thread is the 'elite' of what ever organisation thinking they act for all their members and not really paying attention to ordinary members opinions, because they obviously know better.


----------



## GHamlet75 (9 October 2018)

I agree honetpot. But by the looks of things members still don't have any power. BE's statement reveals: 

* Will we be voting for a new Chairman and Chief Executive?*
No - a motion of no confidence has no legal standing in terms of removing a Director from the Board, however we need to make sure that any concerns are fairly considered and where necessary addressed. The Board takes seriously the views of members and will continue to do so, it is also acutely aware of its responsibility to both the members and for the future of the sport.

Full statement is here: https://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/news/item.aspx?id=7863


----------



## JanetGeorge (10 October 2018)

Seems an open response - time will tell.  At least the 'Directors' - other than the Chief Executive - are volunteers and on the Board.

BHS has jumped from 5 'directors' - when LP took over - to 12 'directors' now - although 2 of the posts are vacant at present if anyone has masochistic tendencies.  And let's not talk about the number of 'Consultants' brought in!!!


----------



## DiNozzo (10 October 2018)

GHamlet75 said:



			I agree honetpot. But by the looks of things members still don't have any power. BE's statement reveals:

* Will we be voting for a new Chairman and Chief Executive?*
No - a motion of no confidence has no legal standing in terms of removing a Director from the Board, however we need to make sure that any concerns are fairly considered and where necessary addressed. The Board takes seriously the views of members and will continue to do so, it is also acutely aware of its responsibility to both the members and for the future of the sport.

Full statement is here: https://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/news/item.aspx?id=7863

Click to expand...

All that means is that there won't be a vote for Chairman/CE at the EGM, not that there won't be one at the next meeting.


----------



## GHamlet75 (10 October 2018)

Very true DiNozzo!

Everyone we've reached over 20,000 views . Thank you to everyone for spreading the word. The truth will come out!


----------



## Gingerwitch (11 October 2018)

Face it many of us pay about Â£68 quid a year so we get our pl insurance - tbh if I could pay Â£68 to the Donkey Sancturary or to Brook or the Blue Cross I would be more than happy for them to have my money, as long as they could sort out the same insurance level.... and I would suspect that many of us HHO'ers would do the same.


----------



## J&S (11 October 2018)

I believe World Horse Welfare do the same, it was a little cheaper than BHS when I last looked into it.


----------



## Orangehorse (11 October 2018)

I know that many people join the BHS for the insurance - but every rider in the UK should be happy to join and support the BHS as the most important horse and rider representative in the country that can speak to Government and is taken seriously because of having a large membership.  Spread yourselves out over several different charities, that have different aims, and you weaken the voice for riders everywhere.


----------



## JanetGeorge (11 October 2018)

But, Orangehorse, we have no say in what the BHS spends our money on - or what LP thinks is important.  The BHS is NOT listening to its members - hell, LP doesn't even listen to her senior staff.  I have my business insurance as a breeder - and employer - but if I wanted personal insurance, I'd join World Horse Welfare.  https://shop.worldhorsewelfare.org/membership/


----------



## SO1 (11 October 2018)

The RCN Board and CEO have stepped down. Only 4% of the membership voted. In terms of charity governance should a CEO and Board have to step down when such a small proportion of the members have voted.

The issue with a lot of these Societies is that the vast numbers of members are apathetic and have little interest in how the organisation is governed. This can make it very difficult to influence change.



honetpot said:



			It must be something in the water. The Royal College of Nurses had a EGM and the committee lost a vote of no confidence, so they have gone away to review their position.
   I think the running thread is the 'elite' of what ever organisation thinking they act for all their members and not really paying attention to ordinary members opinions, because they obviously know better.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## HectorTTerry (11 October 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Seems an open response - time will tell.  At least the 'Directors' - other than the Chief Executive - are volunteers and on the Board.

BHS has jumped from 5 'directors' - when LP took over - to 12 'directors' now - although 2 of the posts are vacant at present if anyone has masochistic tendencies.  And let's not talk about the number of 'Consultants' brought in!!!
		
Click to expand...

I thought I'd investigate this a little further. I have gone through each of the annual reports from when the current CE started at the BHS (appointed 26 November 2012). 

Janet you are correct. When the CE started she had a team of 5 directors. In 5 years she has increased the number of directors to 12, which is an increase of 140%. There are now double the number of employees being paid between Â£60,000 and Â£130,000.   

In 5 years, she has made 21 changes to the director positions (ie changes to the job title and/or remit). During her time she has employed 19 new directors. Out of the 19 new directors, 58% (11 directors) have resigned or no longer work for the organisation. 

The average turnover of management in the UK is 3.1%.


----------



## HectorTTerry (11 October 2018)

Apologies. 

I forgot to add that an additional 3 directors from the original senior management team (ie when the CE started) have also left the BHS. 

Therefore that's a total of 14 directors that have left the BHS in 5 years.


----------



## GHamlet75 (11 October 2018)

She's beating Donald Trump's record! http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump-white-house-staff-turnover-records-2018-7

However don't forget, she'll also be declaring all of this as fake news. Luckily for us, the annual reports are available to the public so this is not fake news!


----------



## honetpot (11 October 2018)

SO1 said:



			The RCN Board and CEO have stepped down. Only 4% of the membership voted. In terms of charity governance should a CEO and Board have to step down when such a small proportion of the members have voted.

The issue with a lot of these Societies is that the vast numbers of members are apathetic and have little interest in how the organisation is governed. This can make it very difficult to influence change.
		
Click to expand...

.

Having been to the RCN Congress a couple of times under my own steam, when I got talking to other members the question was,'who are you with?' Nearly all were subsidised to attend in one form or another. It was a real eye opener. I always used to vote for the person with the smallest connection to the nursing hierarchy.
   Those that have the time, inclination or CV to fill are active. Most of the nurses that I have know over the last 40 years have been more interested juggling life and work than adding yet another commitment. 

Yes we do get what we do or do not vote for, and we have all been very sceptical all been about the motives of politicians but I suppose we have all thought that the BHS has been like grannies old cardigan, old fashioned, a bit holey, due for a change but does the job. Run by people who even if we didn't agree with how they did things it was going the right way.
  The members have no idea what's happening and why, and is it going the right way? So I suppose we want some answers its just finding out what are the right questions to ask how to get answers.


----------



## GHamlet75 (12 October 2018)

honetpot said:



			.

Having been to the RCN Congress a couple of times under my own steam, when I got talking to other members the question was,'who are you with?' Nearly all were subsidised to attend in one form or another. It was a real eye opener. I always used to vote for the person with the smallest connection to the nursing hierarchy.
   Those that have the time, inclination or CV to fill are active. Most of the nurses that I have know over the last 40 years have been more interested juggling life and work than adding yet another commitment.

Yes we do get what we do or do not vote for, and we have all been very sceptical all been about the motives of politicians but I suppose we have all thought that the BHS has been like grannies old cardigan, old fashioned, a bit holey, due for a change but does the job. Run by people who even if we didn't agree with how they did things it was going the right way.
  The members have no idea what's happening and why, and is it going the right way? So I suppose we want some answers its just finding out what are the right questions to ask how to get answers.
		
Click to expand...

Hi Honetpot 

You make an excellent point here. Unfortunately I don't have a solution as to how we get the answers we need. I'm concerned that there is too much media spin from the CE to ever get truthful answers with the current structure, but I'm hopeful we will find a way of getting the answer to 'why' this is all happening. I think the facts that we are collecting on this forum are helpful and insightful. Thank you HectorTTerry for taking the time to gather facts and to share these.


----------



## onemoretime (12 October 2018)

HectorTTerry said:



			Apologies.

I forgot to add that an additional 3 directors from the original senior management team (ie when the CE started) have also left the BHS.

Therefore that's a total of 14 directors that have left the BHS in 5 years.
		
Click to expand...

 OMG


----------



## Blazingsaddles (12 October 2018)

HectorTTerry said:



			Apologies.

I forgot to add that an additional 3 directors from the original senior management team (ie when the CE started) have also left the BHS.

Therefore that's a total of 14 directors that have left the BHS in 5 years.
		
Click to expand...

Good grief, that statistic clearly indicates a problem in the higher command.


----------



## HectorTTerry (13 October 2018)

Over the last 4 years the BHS has paid out Â£125,219 in redundancy or termination payments to leavers. Unfortunately not all of the annual reports list this detail. However I can see that in the first year, the CE made 3 directors redundant so the total costs for removing people from the organisation will be much higher than this.  https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/changes-to-senior-british-horse-society-personnel-390591


----------



## Gingerwitch (13 October 2018)

So how could they make 3 directors redundant and replace them with more directors?


----------



## Archangel (13 October 2018)

How can they make 3 Directors redundant because...
â€œI wanted to bring in more experience and more skills,â€ said chief executive Lynn Petersen. 

Why are they Directors if they lack experience and skills (and they don't appear to).


----------



## JanetGeorge (13 October 2018)

Gill Evans was Head of Finance in my day - and she was damn good.  But, of course, she would not have ALLOWED expenses/income to be 'hidden' or put in the wrong place.  Margaret Linington-Payne wasn't 'in office' in my day - but I know her and she has a TONNE of experience and skills (and gee, she knows a lot about horses too.)  Alison Field was after my day - we didn't have an head of HR then - but I guess she was good but wouldn't follow orders about shoving/bullying good people out.


----------



## onemoretime (13 October 2018)

Gingerwitch said:



			So how could they make 3 directors redundant and replace them with more directors?
		
Click to expand...


good questions Gingerwitch.


----------



## GHamlet75 (14 October 2018)

Gingerwitch said:



			So how could they make 3 directors redundant and replace them with more directors?
		
Click to expand...

Gosh I hadn't even thought about that Gingerwitch! That's a very good question. Any HR experts on this forum who can explain that one?


----------



## McFluff (14 October 2018)

GHamlet75 said:



			Gosh I hadn't even thought about that Gingerwitch! That's a very good question. Any HR experts on this forum who can explain that one?
		
Click to expand...

The devil will be in the detail. True redundancy is a situation where your business needs have changed and you no longer require a particular post (skill set and/or resource). It should be the post that is redundant, then you use a redundancy process to find a solution for the person in the post.  Most organisations try to make losing the postholder the last resort (its expensive, you lose good people and it affects overall morale). Sometimes it is unavoidable. 

Technically if you make a post redundant you canâ€™t then just reinstate the post. It is open to legal challenge if you do. However that doesnâ€™t always stop bad practice.  So you could make a director of marketing redundant and create a director of HR, but you couldnâ€™t make a director of marketing redundant and replace with a director of marketing (you may get away with a director of marketing and sales, but would need to evidence a clear difference if challenged).  

I see lots of badly managed redundancy. Usually where it is used to get rid of a person (rather than a post) or where a voluntary process is applied to reduce headcount with no quality control (so you lose the talent you need). It is the person who was made redundant who would have to challenge a poor process, and for most, that would not be worth it, so most go unchallenged. 

This situation could be â€˜correctâ€™ if the skills being made redundant are genuinely no longer needed, it is hard to see how this can be done when the structure is relatively small so the director needs canâ€™t really change that drastically.  The changes in senior level and turnover rates are a cause for concern, and would indicate to me that all is not well. That combined with the detail in the ET (link near the start of the thread) would not fill me with confidence that a proper process has been followed.  The ET indicates either very poor HR skill or HR being powerless (which is arguably poor skill too). 

Regardless of the outside view, it looks like some of the risks theyâ€™ve taken are impacting on the internal culture and people. That is very sad, but can only be changed from the top.


----------



## GHamlet75 (15 October 2018)

McFluff said:



			The devil will be in the detail. True redundancy is a situation where your business needs have changed and you no longer require a particular post (skill set and/or resource). It should be the post that is redundant, then you use a redundancy process to find a solution for the person in the post.  Most organisations try to make losing the postholder the last resort (its expensive, you lose good people and it affects overall morale). Sometimes it is unavoidable.

Technically if you make a post redundant you canâ€™t then just reinstate the post. It is open to legal challenge if you do. However that doesnâ€™t always stop bad practice.  So you could make a director of marketing redundant and create a director of HR, but you couldnâ€™t make a director of marketing redundant and replace with a director of marketing (you may get away with a director of marketing and sales, but would need to evidence a clear difference if challenged). 

I see lots of badly managed redundancy. Usually where it is used to get rid of a person (rather than a post) or where a voluntary process is applied to reduce headcount with no quality control (so you lose the talent you need). It is the person who was made redundant who would have to challenge a poor process, and for most, that would not be worth it, so most go unchallenged.

This situation could be â€˜correctâ€™ if the skills being made redundant are genuinely no longer needed, it is hard to see how this can be done when the structure is relatively small so the director needs canâ€™t really change that drastically.  The changes in senior level and turnover rates are a cause for concern, and would indicate to me that all is not well. That combined with the detail in the ET (link near the start of the thread) would not fill me with confidence that a proper process has been followed.  The ET indicates either very poor HR skill or HR being powerless (which is arguably poor skill too).

Regardless of the outside view, it looks like some of the risks theyâ€™ve taken are impacting on the internal culture and people. That is very sad, but can only be changed from the top.
		
Click to expand...

McFluff this is very insightful. Thanks! 

I thought I'd track down the annual reports that HectorTTerry has been quoting. I can see in 2012 there was a Director of Standards who was made redundant. Then in 2013 there was a Director of Education created and appointed - is this not the same thing but just with a different job title?

As McFluff says, if someone is playing with the lives of individuals and impacting the internal culture, it's a sad, sad situation.


----------



## JanetGeorge (15 October 2018)

GHamlet75 said:



			I thought I'd track down the annual reports that HectorTTerry has been quoting. I can see in 2012 there was a Director of Standards who was made redundant. Then in 2013 there was a Director of Education created and appointed - is this not the same thing but just with a different job title?

As McFluff says, if someone is playing with the lives of individuals and impacting the internal culture, it's a sad, sad situation.
		
Click to expand...

That's certainly what it is - and has been - since the current CE moved in.  Of course in my day there was a Head of Education, a Head of Training and a Head of Approvals.  Of course they worked together - but were all responsible to the CE.  Of course, the way to fix the problem (if the Board had the balls) would be to make the CE redundant - and replace her with a team of 3 Executive Directors, Perhaps Finance (with overseeing of Finance, Marketing, Fund Raising & Membership, and Examinations/Approvals, and Charitable Concerns (which would cover Access, Safety, Welfare and possibly PR too.)  That team of 3 would have Heads of Departments below them but would have to work as a TEAM - responsible directly to the Board.


----------



## HectorTTerry (15 October 2018)

Unfortunately it's not possible to track down the actual staff turnover figures.  LinkedIn is a good source to ascertain an estimated turnover rate but I am mindful that only 56% of males use LinkedIn and 44% females, and this is potentially likely to be lower in the equestrian industry. 

Therefore, what I have done is look at roles that the BHS has advertised, as this also gives a good indication. I can not give you complete figures as some roles are advertised on the BHS website, others are advertised through a myriad of recruitment websites (some very costly websites), and others don't appear to be advertised at all (yet LinkedIn indicates that there are people in further new positions at the BHS).

So far in 2018, I have been able to track down 35 different positions that have been advertised (NB the BHS driver appears more than once).  

Unfortunately it is harder to track down the total number of positions in 2017 but from a snap shot of 7 different weeks that the BHS advertised roles on their website, they advertised 21 positions.

I stress this is under estimated but to conclude that's 56 new employees that have been recruited in less than 2 years in an organisation whose official full time employee count is 112.


----------



## suestowford (16 October 2018)

I've been a member of the BHS for 20 years. During that time I have written to them on several occasions, raising concerns about various things which I think the society should be tackling. Every time I have been ignored, not even a generic 'thanks for writing in' response.
Reading the report about Sheila Hardy's dismissal has made me decide, I am not going to be a member any more. I get the arguments about changing from within, but on my past experience being a member cuts no ice with the BHS. I might as well save myself Â£68. 
I'm really sad about all of this - but not surprised. The BHS is not the only organisation to become top-heavy and spendthrift.


----------



## GHamlet75 (16 October 2018)

Hi Suestowford. Thanks for sharing your opinion with us. Ironically the CE talked about the importance of good manners in her recent interview with H&H but I don't consider being ignored as 'good manners'.  Members are the foundation of the organisation so they at least deserve some kind of acknowledgement! If you need insurance, then a number of people on this forum have suggested you try World Horse Welfare.


----------



## GHamlet75 (16 October 2018)

HectorTTerry said:



			Unfortunately it's not possible to track down the actual staff turnover figures.  LinkedIn is a good source to ascertain an estimated turnover rate but I am mindful that only 56% of males use LinkedIn and 44% females, and this is potentially likely to be lower in the equestrian industry.

Therefore, what I have done is look at roles that the BHS has advertised, as this also gives a good indication. I can not give you complete figures as some roles are advertised on the BHS website, others are advertised through a myriad of recruitment websites (some very costly websites), and others don't appear to be advertised at all (yet LinkedIn indicates that there are people in further new positions at the BHS).

So far in 2018, I have been able to track down 35 different positions that have been advertised (NB the BHS driver appears more than once). 

Unfortunately it is harder to track down the total number of positions in 2017 but from a snap shot of 7 different weeks that the BHS advertised roles on their website, they advertised 21 positions.

I stress this is under estimated but to conclude that's 56 new employees that have been recruited in less than 2 years in an organisation whose official full time employee count is 112.
		
Click to expand...

I really don't know what to say in response to this. Either the CE is on a huge spending spree which is not sustainable (which will mean redundancies down the line), or people are voting with their feet and leaving the BHS because they have realised they can't change things from within (or worse), or it's a combination of the two. Either way people's lives are being affected.  

Alternatively, information in the annual report is not accurate and the total number of people employed is considerably larger. In which case this is deceitful. 

The BHS keeps denying there are issues with staff turnover and that instead they claim there are personality clashes or people unable to adapt to the BHS environment. I'm sorry but I don't believe a word of this. There is clearly an issue and it's not fair to impact so many people's lives. I know that BHS should be focusing on horse welfare but please, not at the sacrifice of human beings!


----------



## Tiddlypom (16 October 2018)

Oops, posted on wrong thread.


----------



## ester (16 October 2018)

Is there something in the water?

Welsh pony and cob society today 



			Statement by Chair of Council

As Chairman of Council, I would like to clarify the Council's present position on behalf of my fellow Board of trustees.
There seem to be certain members, ex-trustees and an ex-member of staff that are putting out unfounded criticism against the Council on social media sites.

I would like to inform the members openly and honestly of where we are:

Finances

The Society is financially sound. In my opinion, unnecessary legal expense has been caused by trustees and members, but that is something that our Chairman of Finance will deliver in his annual report.

Staff

We have lost experienced staff because they have resigned. To date and prior, we have not had any employment claims against the Society. We also remind the ex-member of staff who seems to challenge the decisions of Council on social media that the opportunity was there for her to re-apply for a position that was created by a restructuring process, which was advised by our auditors and was carried out by a professional HR Company.

Very recently, we have lost two very competent members of staff because of claims of bullying by certain trustees and members and also a lack of confidentiality by trustees.

Temporary staff, will be employed when required as we are no different to any other organisation.

HR matters are strictly private and confidential for the Board of trustees to address. We have employment law to follow and a comprehensive Staff Handbook to follow.

Staff matters are close to our hearts. As their employers we have a duty of care to the staff, and we will take all steps which are reasonably possible to ensure their wellbeing.

Trustees and volunteers

Let me assure members that, trustees and volunteers have worked for days to assist staff. I would also remind the persons who unkindly berate us, that this is done free of charge, with some travelling hundreds of miles on separate occasions.

Meeting the Minimum Operating Standards

The staff inform me of where we are with compliance. I always update the Board of our position regarding compliance. There has been a problem because of staff leaving, that is not because of me or most of my fellow trustees, some have left of their own accord which is an option open to every employee in the country.

Staff levels are always monitored by the HR & Finance Committee and reports go to full Council, we will continue to monitor and adjust when necessary.

There have been problems with the telephone answering system and we are addressing this with our hard working team of staff, who I remind the membership have been hit with a high demand for passports for the forthcoming autumn sales.

I would like to apologise to my fellow members about the lack of response regarding phone calls. I give you my word that it is being addressed and that this will not happen in the future.

Finally, I remind the members that Governance is always being monitored by my fellow Vicechair of Council, we do our very best to comply with this. We have to comply with our Articles of Association and Charity and Company law. There are also many more legislative matters that are put before us; we have to deal with all of them. Sometimes decisions are not popular to you or Council, but when we make them it is a necessity based upon evidence.

GDPR has created a lot of work for the staff and trustees, we have to be very observant, that we stay within the guidelines, if we fail, it may cause serious financial risks to the assets of your Society.

Social Media and Internet Policy

I would remind the minority of members who choose to berate me and my fellow trustees and staff unfairly on social media, that we will consider enforcing the above policy, when any material which could damage the name or reputation of The Welsh Pony and Cob Society, its members or former members, or which is derogatory to the character of or prejudicial to the interests of The Welsh Pony and Cob Society is published on the web.

We work tirelessly and voluntarily for you all. Above all we always aim to treat you all as fairly and equally as possible. We accept constructive criticism, but there is an element out there, in my view, for whatever reason trying to bring the good name of this great Society into disrepute. Finally, I remind members; we do aim and will continue to work for your best interests. The Council changes every year, we have been left situations that we have been criticised for, that are not of our doing and I am sure this will happen in the future, nothing in this world is perfect!

I promise you also that no internal matters are or have been swept under the carpet and have been dealt with as per rules of the Society, as all members must abide by.

Chair of Council, John Kirk.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Blazingsaddles (16 October 2018)

*Conspiracy Theorist Alert* from reading comments I understand that a few members have resigned reluctantly/encouraged outðŸ˜‰.  I realise I sound completely bonkers, but is there some sort of â€˜fiddleâ€™ going on? I mean, you employ a person who you then make redundant after a comparatively short time with redundancy pay?


----------



## JanetGeorge (17 October 2018)

Blazingsaddles said:



			*Conspiracy Theorist Alert* from reading comments I understand that a few members have resigned reluctantly/encouraged outðŸ˜‰.  I realise I sound completely bonkers, but is there some sort of â€˜fiddleâ€™ going on? I mean, you employ a person who you then make redundant after a comparatively short time with redundancy pay?
		
Click to expand...

Wouldn't be wrth it.  You have to be in the job for 2 years to be entitled to redundancy payments - and then it's only half a day for each fuill year.  Of course, redundancy does COST the employer and the employee might also go for unfair dismissal - which can cost a lot!  So 'encouraging' an employee to resign is far cheaper!


----------



## HectorTTerry (17 October 2018)

I have been looking at expenditure in the BHS from the annual accounts. Expenditure for Membership from 2012 until 2017 has remained static. However, at the same time expenditure for IT has grown exponentially. In 2012 The British Horse Society spent Â£258,869 on IT. In 2017 The British Horse Society spent Â£1,093,000, demonstrating a 322% increase in expenditure. Under the current CE there has been a total expenditure of Â£3,962,126 on IT. In 2012 and 2013 there is mention of investment in two different CRM databases, however nothing is then reported until 2017, where The British Horse Society announced they are reviewing their Information Systems. There are 3 full time permanent members of staff in IT with a spend of over a million pounds in one year. I would like to understand how 4 million pounds has been spent on IT in such a small organisation (112 employees), without any detail revealed as to the need of this expenditure.


----------



## JanetGeorge (17 October 2018)

HectorTTerry said:



			There are 3 full time permanent members of staff in IT with a spend of over a million pounds in one year. I would like to understand how 4 million pounds has been spent on IT in such a small organisation (112 employees), without any detail revealed as to the need of this expenditure.
		
Click to expand...


Ah - you forget about the IT consultants - and none of them can make the system work properly!

Ah - my OH (who has been 'big' in It for 40 years - so knows his stuff) says it is NOT an IT problem - it is a rash of absolutely stupid management decisions. Of COURSE the IT consultants will recommend more expenditure and more systems.  He says it is mostly due to different departments getting different systems in for their OWN needs - no sensible overall strategy.


----------



## GHamlet75 (17 October 2018)

How much?! 

And what has The BHS got to show for Â£4m?! I canâ€™t renew my membership online, I know innumerable APCs who have had endless issues with renewing their membership (some finding out they werenâ€™t insured when they thought they were), and I can see no evidence of where this money is going because everything still seems manually generated (e.g. when a friend booked onto doing an exam recently, everything was confirmed by post). Is it just me who is struggling to see how this money has been spent? Yet another way of the CE spending peopleâ€™s donations with nothing to show for.


----------



## GHamlet75 (17 October 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Ah - you forget about the IT consultants - and none of them can make the system work properly!

Ah - my OH (who has been 'big' in It for 40 years - so knows his stuff) says it is NOT an IT problem - it is a rash of absolutely stupid management decisions. Of COURSE the IT consultants will recommend more expenditure and more systems.  He says it is mostly due to different departments getting different systems in for their OWN needs - no sensible overall strategy.
		
Click to expand...

JanetGeorge I couldn't agree more!


----------



## Pearlsasinger (17 October 2018)

Statutory redundancy pay is one week's pay for every year employed by the company, if you are under the age of 41 yrs and 1 1/2 weeks apy for every year you have been employed aged 41 and over


----------



## GHamlet75 (17 October 2018)

Wow we've reached 25,000 views really quickly!
Thanks to everyone for continuing to share this with the equestrian world


----------



## JanetGeorge (17 October 2018)

Ruddy typos - have just found that I mistyped my email address way back on this thread - sorry about that.  Anyone who has tried, please send again to janetgeorgeATirish-draught.net    And anyone else who can help but doesn't want to go public, please e-mail me too.


----------



## SO1 (17 October 2018)

It is very easy to spend that sort of money on IT, especially if it is outsourced to third party suppliers. Some of these website agencies will be charging Â£1000 a day for development work or consultancy. If there is web integration involved with a database and you outsource development work it can soon rack up.

If they have revamped or had a new website and it was outsourced and there is complex data integration and it done through an agency it could easily cost 1 million.

A new CRM database could cost at least 250k.

I do think they might have a governance issue 11% of their staff seems to be Director level or above. I would question if having such a high percentage of their staff at this level is a good use of charity money. Most charities of this size would have a senior management team of 5 rather than 13.

They have also spent 600k more than their income - it might be a deliberate expenditure to reduce their reserves, charities cannot hold too much money in reserve.




HectorTTerry said:



			I have been looking at expenditure in the BHS from the annual accounts. Expenditure for Membership from 2012 until 2017 has remained static. However, at the same time expenditure for IT has grown exponentially. In 2012 The British Horse Society spent Â£258,869 on IT. In 2017 The British Horse Society spent Â£1,093,000, demonstrating a 322% increase in expenditure. Under the current CE there has been a total expenditure of Â£3,962,126 on IT. In 2012 and 2013 there is mention of investment in two different CRM databases, however nothing is then reported until 2017, where The British Horse Society announced they are reviewing their Information Systems. There are 3 full time permanent members of staff in IT with a spend of over a million pounds in one year. I would like to understand how 4 million pounds has been spent on IT in such a small organisation (112 employees), without any detail revealed as to the need of this expenditure.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## HectorTTerry (18 October 2018)

SO1 said:



			It is very easy to spend that sort of money on IT, especially if it is outsourced to third party suppliers. Some of these website agencies will be charging Â£1000 a day for development work or consultancy. If there is web integration involved with a database and you outsource development work it can soon rack up.

If they have revamped or had a new website and it was outsourced and there is complex data integration and it done through an agency it could easily cost 1 million.

A new CRM database could cost at least 250k.

I do think they might have a governance issue 11% of their staff seems to be Director level or above. I would question if having such a high percentage of their staff at this level is a good use of charity money. Most charities of this size would have a senior management team of 5 rather than 13.

They have also spent 600k more than their income - it might be a deliberate expenditure to reduce their reserves, charities cannot hold too much money in reserve.
		
Click to expand...

Hi SO1
Yes the expenditure could have been on the website, were it not for the information in the 2012 annual report that states that the new website was launched in that year when expenditure was at its lowest. Therefore the increase in expenditure must be related to other IT activity. 

You make a good point on the overall expenditure of the organisation. Charities should not hold too much money in reserve but this should not result in frivolous spending either.


----------



## GHamlet75 (19 October 2018)

Anyone else being pestered by the BHS on Facebook? I keep getting different posts that start to show a number of negative comments, which then get pulled (we don't seem to be the only members unhappy). This particularly post says membership Â£5.75 p/month. I agree with these comments, I'm not paying Â£5.75 for mine. Anyone else find this unfair that new members get to pay less?


----------



## The Bouncing Bog Trotter (19 October 2018)

Can anyone point me towards the Registered Interests of both Trustees and Directors on the BHS website?


----------



## teacups (19 October 2018)

Those figures for redundancy payments are the statutory (legal) *minimum* payable. The directors' contracts may well give them enhanced terms, or entitlement to other severance payments.


----------



## HectorTTerry (19 October 2018)

The Bouncing Bog Trotter said:



			Can anyone point me towards the Registered Interests of both Trustees and Directors on the BHS website?
		
Click to expand...

Hi The Bouncing Bog Trotter

The only detail regarding the trustees is available here http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/about-us-and-our-work/our-people/trustees 
There is some limited information about the CE here http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/about-us-and-our-work/our-people 

I canâ€™t find anything about the directors on the website. In the annual report there are job names and titles:
Chief Operating Officer - Sarah Phillips
Director, Finance - Duncan Snook
Director, Membership - Emma Day
Director, Education - Alex Copeland
Director, Human Resources - Alison Macdonald
Director, Welfare - Gemma Stanford
Director, Safety - Alan Hiscox
Director, Access - Mark Weston
Director, Fundraising - Tracy Casstles
Director, Business Development - Georgina Walters
Director, Marketing and Communications - Vacant
Director, Technology - Vacant


----------



## Andalusiandreams (19 October 2018)

GHamlet75 said:



			Anyone else being pestered by the BHS on Facebook? I keep getting different posts that start to show a number of negative comments, which then get pulled (we don't seem to be the only members unhappy). This particularly post says membership Â£5.75 p/month. I agree with these comments, I'm not paying Â£5.75 for mine. Anyone else find this unfair that new members get to pay less? 
	View attachment 26411

Click to expand...

The cost you pay is an annual membership but depends on when the collection is taken in the month. They have two collection dates. This will then determine how much you pay monthly but will add up to the correct and same amount overall annually.


----------



## GHamlet75 (19 October 2018)

Andalusiandreams said:



			The cost you pay is an annual membership but depends on when the collection is taken in the month. They have two collection dates. This will then determine how much you pay monthly but will add up to the correct and same amount overall annually.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Andalusiandreams. Still not sure I follow though. Regardless of what time of month we pay, shouldn't it be the same? On the website it's also advertising Â£5.75 a month (https://www.bhs.org.uk/membership/types-of-memberships/gold-membership) but you can see from my post that I shared that other people are being charged different amounts. I just think this is misleading


----------



## Andalusiandreams (19 October 2018)

HectorTTerry said:



			Hi SO1
Yes the expenditure could have been on the website, were it not for the information in the 2012 annual report that states that the new website was launched in that year when expenditure was at its lowest. Therefore the increase in expenditure must be related to other IT activity.

You make a good point on the overall expenditure of the organisation. Charities should not hold too much money in reserve but this should not result in frivolous spending either.
		
Click to expand...

The majority of the


GHamlet75 said:



			Thanks Andalusiandreams. Still not sure I follow though. Regardless of what time of month we pay, shouldn't it be the same? On the website it's also advertising Â£5.75 a month (https://www.bhs.org.uk/membership/types-of-memberships/gold-membership) but you can see from my post that I shared that other people are being charged different amounts. I just think this is misleading
		
Click to expand...

I agree it is misleading but it works on the collection date which may mean that you only have 11 collections depending on when you joined and when your collection date is set up rather than 12 which means your annual cost is divided by 11 for example Â£67/11=Â£6.09 rather than the Â£67 over 12 months @ Â£5.58. A full breakdown should be provided with your DD schedule of payments but if you donâ€™t have it email/call and they can send you one.


----------



## GHamlet75 (19 October 2018)

Gosh that's the most clarity I've had about membership in a long time! Thanks Andalusiandreams. Any idea why it differs between 11 and 12 months as I thought a monthly payment means every month and as there are 12 months in a year that this should correlate?


----------



## Andalusiandreams (19 October 2018)

HectorTTerry said:



			Hi SO1
Yes the expenditure could have been on the website, were it not for the information in the 2012 annual report that states that the new website was launched in that year when expenditure was at its lowest. Therefore the increase in expenditure must be related to other IT activity.

You make a good point on the overall expenditure of the organisation. Charities should not hold too much money in reserve but this should not result in frivolous spending either.
		
Click to expand...

The majority of the


GHamlet75 said:



			Thanks Andalusiandreams. Still not sure I follow though. Regardless of what time of month we pay, shouldn't it be the same? On the website it's also advertising Â£5.75 a month (https://www.bhs.org.uk/membership/types-of-memberships/gold-membership) but you can see from my post that I shared that other people are being charged different amounts. I just think this is misleading
		
Click to expand...

I agree it is misleading but it works on the collection date which may mean that you only have 11 collections rather than 12 which means your annual cost is divided by 11 for example Â£67/11=Â£6.09 rather than the Â£67 over 12 months @ Â£5.75


GHamlet75 said:



			Gosh that's the most clarity I've had about membership in a long time! Thanks Andalusiandreams. Any idea why it differs between 11 and 12 months as I thought a monthly payment means every month and as there are 12 months in a year that this should correlate?
		
Click to expand...

It should do yes but not with the system they have. If you start your membership after the first collection date then you have to be pushed to the next available collection date which may not be until the second month of your membership depending on the time scales involved. Therefore all your benefits are active from the moment you officially join your payment collection dates have to take place over a shorter amount of time therefore increasing the monthly amount. This means that although your membership runs for a full 12 months your payments are condensed to 11 for example allowing for the full amount to be taken but in a shorter amount of time which increases the monthly amount to allow for that.  Apologies if I am not explaining myself particularly well -
This is from a while ago although I donâ€™t think things have changed.


----------



## GHamlet75 (19 October 2018)

Andalusiandreams said:



			The majority of the


I agree it is misleading but it works on the collection date which may mean that you only have 11 collections rather than 12 which means your annual cost is divided by 11 for example Â£67/11=Â£6.09 rather than the Â£67 over 12 months @ Â£5.75


It should do yes but not with the system they have. If you start your membership after the first collection date then you have to be pushed to the next available collection date which may not be until the second month of your membership depending on the time scales involved. Therefore all your benefits are active from the moment you officially join your payment collection dates have to take place over a shorter amount of time therefore increasing the monthly amount. This means that although your membership runs for a full 12 months your payments are condensed to 11 for example allowing for the full amount to be taken but in a shorter amount of time which increases the monthly amount to allow for that.  Apologies if I am not explaining myself particularly well -
This is from a while ago although I donâ€™t think things have changed.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for being patient with me Andalusiandreams! I think I follow. So in short, the BHS has invested Â£4m of members donations into IT with the result that it can't even execute a straight forward monthly payment. Wow... I agree with SO1, I think there's definitely a governance issue!


----------



## GHamlet75 (19 October 2018)

The Bouncing Bog Trotter said:



			Can anyone point me towards the Registered Interests of both Trustees and Directors on the BHS website?
		
Click to expand...

Hi The Bouncing Bog Trotter (wonderful name!)

It's a good questions about registered interests. Shame nothing is available. 
If you google the Safety Director this comes up straight away https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribu...horse-society-and-mr-alan-hiscox-1303008-2016
If you google the HR Director this comes up https://assets.publishing.service.g...ritish_Horse_Society_1303008_2016_reasons.pdf

I know the tribunal is not new news on this forum but I still find it staggering what occurred and how BHS managed to keep this under wraps.


----------



## JanetGeorge (19 October 2018)

Well - it appears it is not just staff being forced to resign.  I have heard that last week practically an entire Regional Committee of volunteers has resigned - lack of confidence in the CE and the Board!


----------



## Lovethebeach (20 October 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Well - it appears it is not just staff being forced to resign.  I have heard that last week practically an entire Regional Committee of volunteers has resigned - lack of confidence in the CE and the Board!
		
Click to expand...

Oh no, goes from bad to worse!! As an Access Officer I am getting very concerned :-( could you PM me with which region please if you don't want to name them publicly


----------



## Bow1973 (21 October 2018)

HectorTTerry said:



			I thought I'd investigate this a little further. I have gone through each of the annual reports from when the current CE started at the BHS (appointed 26 November 2012).

Janet you are correct. When the CE started she had a team of 5 directors. In 5 years she has increased the number of directors to 12, which is an increase of 140%. There are now double the number of employees being paid between Â£60,000 and Â£130,000. 

In 5 years, she has made 21 changes to the director positions (ie changes to the job title and/or remit). During her time she has employed 19 new directors. Out of the 19 new directors, 58% (11 directors) have resigned or no longer work for the organisation.

The average turnover of management in the UK is 3.1%.
		
Click to expand...

I have experienced the BHS underhanded ways and believe


JulesRules said:



			As members what can we do?
		
Click to expand...

We need to start a vote of no confidence in the current CEO, directors & possibly trustees and some employees as they are aware and allowing this to happen and get them out!! Get as many people & members to join and sign it. Its hard to identify the individual people in it so people should sign. No idea how to get this actully started though but happy to help. I have first hand experience of the treatment the BHS HQ and employees give members.


----------



## Bow1973 (21 October 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Well - it appears it is not just staff being forced to resign.  I have heard that last week practically an entire Regional Committee of volunteers has resigned - lack of confidence in the CE and the Board!
		
Click to expand...

A vote of no confidence for the current CEO, directors, some trustees and employees and needs to be made by the members to get them out & some genuine people running it or shut it down and expand the WHW with the qualifications.


----------



## GHamlet75 (22 October 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Well - it appears it is not just staff being forced to resign.  I have heard that last week practically an entire Regional Committee of volunteers has resigned - lack of confidence in the CE and the Board!
		
Click to expand...

 Do you have any more detail you could share with us JanetGeorge?


----------



## GHamlet75 (22 October 2018)

Bow1973 said:



			I have experienced the BHS underhanded ways and believe


We need to start a vote of no confidence in the current CEO, directors & possibly trustees and some employees as they are aware and allowing this to happen and get them out!! Get as many people & members to join and sign it. Its hard to identify the individual people in it so people should sign. No idea how to get this actully started though but happy to help. I have first hand experience of the treatment the BHS HQ and employees give members.
		
Click to expand...

I agree Bow1973 but when the CE controls so many members it won't be easy (e.g. employees are members, riding schools are members, APCs are members...)


----------



## JanetGeorge (22 October 2018)

I agree Bow1973 but when the CE controls so many members it won't be easy (e.g. employees are members, riding schools are members, APCs are members...)
		
Click to expand...

You are so right, GHamlet75 - it won't be easy.  But she can't stay teflon-coated for MUCH longer.  People are speaking up and the Board will eventually have to remove thumbs from ears.


----------



## GHamlet75 (22 October 2018)

Glad to hear people are gaining confidence to speak out. The truth has to come out


----------



## HectorTTerry (23 October 2018)

Prior to the current CE, The British Horse Society was an Investors in People organisation. Investors in People is the standard for people management. The standard defines what it takes to lead, support and manage people well for sustainable results.

In the 2012 annual report The British Horse Society states: as an Investors in People organisation, we take training and development very seriously: 76 separate training events took place for staff during 2012, ranging from technical/professional training to skills workshops. training has been delivered both internally and by external providers.

Since the current CE has been in position, The British Horse Society no longer has Investors in People Accreditation. Since the CE has been in position, there has been no mention of any training or support for employees in any annual report.


----------



## GHamlet75 (24 October 2018)

Thanks HectorTTerry. In case anyone was wondering how to access the annual reports you can find the last few years here http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details?regid=210504&subid=0
Go to the documents tab and you can download any of the annual reports. This is public information available to everyone. This covers 
The British Horse Society Annual Report 2017 
The British Horse Society Annual Report 2016 
The British Horse Society Annual Report 2015
The British Horse Society Annual Report 2014
The British Horse Society Annual Report 2013 

Unfortunately it doesnâ€™t go back to the 2012 accounts (which is important to look at, as this gives you something to compare with â€“ ie how the organisation has changed since the CE has been in power). If anyone wants to read this simply google â€˜british horse society annual report 2012â€™.


----------



## JanetGeorge (24 October 2018)

Actually, Companies House is beter - you can go back to 1998 there.  https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00444742/filing-history?page=2


----------



## GHamlet75 (24 October 2018)

Regardless of whether you politically agree with Teresa May or not, has anyone else seen the news in the last 24 hours? 

"So, just as we won't accept any behaviour that causes people to feel intimidated or humiliated in the workplace, there must be consequences for failing to comply with the law.

"Non-disclosure agreements cannot stop people from whistleblowing but it is clear some employers are using them unethically.

"The government is going to bring forward measures for consideration for consultation to seek to improve the regulation around non-disclosure agreements and make it absolutely explicit to employees when a non-disclosure agreement does not apply or cannot be enforced."

The committeeâ€™s report, published in July, said NDAs â€œmust be better controlled and regulatedâ€ and that lawyers must be held to account if using them unethically. 

Labour has pledged to ban NDAs that stop employees disclosing discrimination, harassment or victimisation.

I'm sure any journalist would be interested to know exactly how many NDAs or compromise agreements The British Horse Society has enforced over recent years.  

Check out 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...l-puts-non-disclosure-agreements-in-spotlight
https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-...hically-after-daily-telegraph-gagged-11534347
And the original article (if you have a subscription)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/23/british-metoo-scandal-cannot-revealed/


----------



## JanetGeorge (26 October 2018)

Odd that another BHS has been in the news - for very similar reasons.


----------



## GHamlet75 (26 October 2018)

If you google BHS and bullying, not only do you find a number of articles about the clothes store, you also find the Horse & Hound article https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...ependent-review-bullying-elitism-found-646843

If you google British Horse Society and grievance you will find the tribunal
https://assets.publishing.service.g...ritish_Horse_Society_1303008_2016_reasons.pdf

Maybe the two organisations have more in common than meets the eye?

Looking at the BBC this morning, the Telegraph says it spent eight months investigating allegations of bullying, intimidation and sexual harassment in relation to this weekâ€™s story.

It will take time for the truth to be revealed but I for one am prepared to be patient.


----------



## GHamlet75 (26 October 2018)

I canâ€™t believe it. We have reached 30,000 views! Thank you to everyone for spreading awareness of this forum and for continuing to support JanetGeorgeâ€™s initial thread. To reiterate - awareness allows members to make informed decisions of how they decide to use their donations in the future, be this with the British Horse Society or other organisations whose focus is dedicated to horse welfare. I hope this forum also provides some form of supportive framework for past or present employees who believe they have been unfairly treated.
Thank you for all your support.


----------



## JanetGeorge (26 October 2018)




----------



## honetpot (27 October 2018)

Well that disappeared quickly.
  I think if the Trustees tried to change its going to cost an awful  lot of money if people refuse the leave, which by the look of it they will. Having worked in a similar situation its far easier to pay off the junior staff, because of course they are causing the problem, than actually tackle the real problem at the top.
   There have obviously been no processes in place to prevent the high turnover of staff at any level of management and its hard to prove the cause in reality unless there is a paper trail,
  I have already paid my subs for the year, but with regret I think the only quickly effective way to effect change is to not re-join and a join something like  WHW. If it was done on mass it would effect the accounts which they can not fudge.
  FB posts disappear and will this thread?


----------



## devon horse rider (27 October 2018)

LOL


----------



## Charliew00 (27 October 2018)

I guess if this thread disappears another can be started. The Isle of Man Committee resigned a few years ago and there has been no effort made to resurrect it.


----------



## Red-1 (27 October 2018)

honetpot said:



			Well that disappeared quickly.
  I think if the Trustees tried to change its going to cost an awful  lot of money if people refuse the leave, which by the look of it they will. Having worked in a similar situation its far easier to pay off the junior staff, because of course they are causing the problem, than actually tackle the real problem at the top.
   There have obviously been no processes in place to prevent the high turnover of staff at any level of management and its hard to prove the cause in reality unless there is a paper trail,
  I have already paid my subs for the year, but with regret I think the only quickly effective way to effect change is to not re-join and a join something like  WHW. If it was done on mass it would effect the accounts which they can not fudge.
  FB posts disappear and will this thread?
		
Click to expand...

I can understand why the FB post disappeared, as it was a page for the BHS. I don't think this thread will go as, without going back through and checking, I am not sure anyone has broken any rules. 

I think the longer this goes on then the more it is likely that the BHS will have to issue some sort of statement, if just to preserve the membership and therefore finances. Personally I left the BHS in October last year and now have 3rd party on my horse insurance. I stopped riding professionally and now just ride my own


----------



## JanetGeorge (27 October 2018)

honetpot said:



			Well that disappeared quickly.
		
Click to expand...

The frightening thing is ALL the regional FB pages have disappeared.  God forbid that anyone could DARE question what goes on at HQ.  Trying to upload the question on the main page:  "Does BHS HQ really think that removing its Regional pages from FB stops people talking about the mess?  I don't think so. "  But it wouldn't upload.  Didn't stop my review comment uploading - though it probably won't last long.  For the record, what I said was: " The best improvement for the BHS would be a new Chairman and Chief Executive.  You can't gag all of the people, all of the time. "


----------



## JanetGeorge (27 October 2018)

Ah - my error.  The other pages haven't disappeared - just not found with the full British Horse Society.


----------



## honetpot (27 October 2018)

I had a look on the NE page and I could not find it, the review meeting was on the 17/10, posted on their FB page in events.


----------



## JanetGeorge (27 October 2018)

honetpot said:



			I had a look on the NE page and I could not find it, the review meeting was on the 17/10, posted on their FB page in events.
		
Click to expand...

Yes - it has been temporarily removed - but NOT by HQ.  (I never thought they'd managed that a a week-end, lol.)


----------



## GHamlet75 (29 October 2018)

Iâ€™ve learnt that people who follow this forum but arenâ€™t registered users, are unable to view any attachments. JanetGâ€™s post showed an announcement from British Horse Society NE Wales Facebook Page.
It said: The North East Wales Committee are sorry to announce that as a result of loss of confidence and faith in the CEO and Trustees of the Society, and the management of its finances, the majority of committee members resigned at the recent Annual Review Meeting. The Committee are very sorry that it has come to this but thank everyone who have attended our events and clinics over the years for their fantastic support.

What a brave decision! It will not have been easy as volunteers sacrifice many hours, days, weeks, months, years supporting The British Horse Society. However, I have admiration for this decision and it reassures me that people care. As a united front we can make a difference.


----------



## GHamlet75 (29 October 2018)

PS JanetGeorge - did you capture any of the comments that were made on that post?


----------



## JanetGeorge (29 October 2018)

GHamlet75 said:



			PS JanetGeorge - did you capture any of the comments that were made on that post?
		
Click to expand...

No - I'm hopeless at catching screenshots.  But there was nothing very sexy.


----------



## GHamlet75 (30 October 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			No - I'm hopeless at catching screenshots.  But there was nothing very sexy.
		
Click to expand...

Not to worry JanetGeorge! At least it was shared by people, so it got some exposure before being removed. It's a shame that the British Horse Society is trying to suppress everyone. If everything was ok, why would there be any need to hide things?


----------



## JanetGeorge (30 October 2018)

GHamlet75 said:



			Not to worry JanetGeorge! At least it was shared by people, so it got some exposure before being removed. It's a shame that the British Horse Society is trying to suppress everyone. If everything was ok, why would there be any need to hide things?
		
Click to expand...

Exactly.  And they haven't taken down their FB page yet - that's the only way to get rid of 'reviews' you don't like, lol.  Mine is still there - it says:  "The best improvement for the BHS would be a new Chairman and Chief Executive.  You can't gag all of the people, all of the time."  Time she woke up to THAT!


----------



## GHamlet75 (31 October 2018)

I'm very surprised your review is still there JanetGeorge! I am also surprised that for once they haven't removed other negative reviews. It looks like the British Horse Society has a serious issue with its membership. I notice on their facebook advertising they keep removing any negative comments about members having insurance issues but fortunately the following is still documented on their facebook page:

Has anybody else had the need to claim on their Gold Membership Insurance? Well I'm so sorry I've been paying my premiums these years! Having broke my back 12 months ago end of April (horse related accident). I've been looking through the T&C's and tried to claim. Now they say, the policy wording has changed and unless a specialist states I'm disabled for life, I won't have a claim? I have been off work since the accident, need further surgery, am virtually housebound, can't look after my horse and will have to sell him or retire him because I can't afford to keep him with no wage! Why do they always manage to find loopholes not to pay up?? Gutted 
	
	
		
		
	


	



 

Yes, I've had a similar experience. I got kicked in the head in 2009 & suffered a fractured skull. I have been left with reduced sight in my left eye and totally deaf in left ear. Tried claiming on my BHS gold insurance. After about a year of having to visit specialists & obtain several doctors reports, I was told I wasn't eligible to claim as both ears or eyes would have to be affected to count as 'total disability'. Needless to say I have since cancelled my BHS gold membership :-( 

Disgusting isn't it, the policy wording doesn't state this at all though does it? But what it does say misleads you into thinking you are covered. Afterall, you take it out thinking you are covered if you have an accident too! My public liability is more or less void now, because my horse doesn't ride on the roads. So it's only because I'm looking into taking legal action that I'm not cancelling mine at the moment! Absolutely disgusting!! ðŸ˜  

it may be worth putting your case to the Insurance Ombudsman. They have been known to thoroughly investigate insurance companies policy wording and I know of people whose claims have been upheld through them - not horse related ones I know but itâ€™s their legal obligation to investigate all policies . Iâ€™m with these thinking my horse is covered if heâ€™s involved in an accident on the road ? Is this correct ðŸ¤” . I am going to look into it further as I have been paying Gold Premiums too - what a waste of money if theyâ€™re using opt out clauses ðŸ˜¡ sounds disgusting on their part. If theyâ€™re taking money from members in a misleading way then premiums should be returned as the cover is not what you initially were advised or thought it to be - obviously misrepresentation ðŸ™„- Good luck with your legal action it certainly sounds as though it needs challenging ðŸ‘ðŸ» 

Full review can be found here https://www.facebook.com/pg/TheBritishHorseSociety/reviews/ 

If the British Horse Society doesn't pay out on insurance claims it makes the whole membership worthless.


----------



## Tiddlypom (31 October 2018)

Tbf, the main benefit of the insurance cover offered by BHS gold membership is the Â£20 million third party liability cover. The cover for accidental death or total disablement is very limited (payout is a max Â£10k) and I'm surprised that folk would rely on that cover as being sufficient if they had a major injury.

_Features and benefits
PROVIDES COVER FOR ACCIDENTAL DEATH, LOSS OF LIMB OR SIGHT AND PERMANENT TOTAL DISABLEMENT ONLY as a consequence of:
A: Horserelatedaccidentsotherthanwhilstattendinganorganisedequestrianevent

as defined in B below but including travelling to and from such event.
B: HorserelatedactivitieswhilstattendinganeventorofficialPractice/Trainingsession organised by or affiliated to the BHS, British Show Jumping Association, Pony Clubs,

BHS Riding Clubs, British Eventing, British Equestrian Vaulting, British Carriagedriving, Endurance GB or FÃ©dÃ©ration Equestre Internationale

Up to a maximum benefit of Â£5,000 in respect of A and Â£10,000 in respect of B You can only claim for one of the benefits as a result of any one accident

Cover in respect of Accidental Death is limited to Â£5,000 in respect of persons under the age of 16. _





https://www.bhs.org.uk/~/media/bhs/...-gold-members-terms-and-conditions.ashx?la=en


----------



## GHamlet75 (1 November 2018)

Wow the devil is in the detail! OK you have a good point Tiddlypom. 
It's also very specific about the types of event. I assume from this, we aren't covered if we attend any non affiliated events or for that matter, a whole host of other activities that we might want to do with our horses. 
Definitely a case of read the small print before you buy!


----------



## GHamlet75 (2 November 2018)

I notice this review on the British Horse Society Facebook page:

The BHS are just bullies! if it was not for the volunteers there would be no BHS!
I think all BHS volunteers should consider what the North East Welsh committee did and may be set up their own committee.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/TheBritishHorseSociety/reviews/


----------



## Leo Walker (2 November 2018)

GHamlet75 said:



			Wow the devil is in the detail! OK you have a good point Tiddlypom.
It's also very specific about the types of event. I assume from this, we aren't covered if we attend any non affiliated events or for that matter, a whole host of other activities that we might want to do with our horses.
Definitely a case of read the small print before you buy!
		
Click to expand...

Looks pretty standard to me. I think its the same in any horse insurance policy isn't it? Its also an insurance of last resort. Something to be considered an added bonus of membership rather than the sole purpose if it surely?


----------



## GHamlet75 (2 November 2018)

Thanks Leo Walker. The British Horse Society promotes insurance as the top two reasons to join them:

Public liability insurance up to Â£30 million - Be protected, even if your horse causes damage or injury
Personal accident insurance up to Â£10,000 - Accidents happen, but itâ€™s good to know youâ€™ll be covered
I know many people who are members solely because of the insurance so I just want to ensure they all read the small print before assuming they are covered because the way they advertise it is in my opinion, misleading.


----------



## GHamlet75 (2 November 2018)

GHamlet75 said:



			I notice this review on the British Horse Society Facebook page:

The BHS are just bullies! if it was not for the volunteers there would be no BHS!
I think all BHS volunteers should consider what the North East Welsh committee did and may be set up their own committee.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/TheBritishHorseSociety/reviews/

Click to expand...

Bullying in the workplace remains a hot topic in the press https://www.metro.news/bullying-a-problem-in-the-nhs-say-40-of-doctors/1292918/


----------



## GHamlet75 (7 November 2018)

The independent has a whole section on their website dedicated to bullying. https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/Bullying 
An article that should be of interest to the followers on this forum thread states
â€˜research from the Workplace Bullying Institute suggests that 58 per cent of bullies in the workplace are femaleâ€™
Full article here https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...n-bee-syndrome-colleagues-women-a8508581.html 

Bullying in the workplace is real.

Bullying in the workplace is no longer something that can be hidden.  

Bullies are being held accountable.


----------



## JanetGeorge (7 November 2018)

Well it is certainly time that the BHS CE WAS held accountable - and a couple of her 'directors' too.  The latest I heard is very hard to believe - but it IS true!!  Lady Anne Vestey has been 'sacked' as a voluntary welfare officer - and no-one's had the grace to tell her what her 'crime' allegedly was.


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (7 November 2018)

That's dreadful, Anne is a real crafter and all round good egg!


----------



## onemoretime (7 November 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Well it is certainly time that the BHS CE WAS held accountable - and a couple of her 'directors' too.  The latest I heard is very hard to believe - but it IS true!!  Lady Anne Vestey has been 'sacked' as a voluntary welfare officer - and no-one's had the grace to tell her what her 'crime' allegedly was.
		
Click to expand...

OMG that is going over the top.  Poor lady, they won't do themselves any good if they keep going on in this manner.


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (7 November 2018)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			That's dreadful, Anne is a real Grafter and all round good egg!
		
Click to expand...

Corrected ðŸ˜¶


----------



## JanetGeorge (7 November 2018)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Corrected ðŸ˜¶
		
Click to expand...

lol, I did guess what you meant.  I haven't had the privilege of meeting her - but all I've heard is very good indeed.  Treating ANY volunteer like that is appalling - but to treat a Lady - with friends in high places - like that is also just downright stupid!!  One would hope the Chairman might sort it out - or a Duke isn't going to be impressed by his 'Manager's' abilities!


----------



## GHamlet75 (7 November 2018)

Are we talking about the same Lady Anne Vesty who is/was a Vice President of the British Horse Society? 'Our Vice-Presidents play a valuable role in the presentation of The British Horse Society to the wider equestrian community'. http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/about-us-and-our-work/our-people  How can someone be selected as being valuable to the BHS and then discarded so easily? Do you know any more JanetGeorge?


----------



## JanetGeorge (7 November 2018)

GHamlet75 said:



			Are we talking about the same Lady Anne Vesty who is/was a Vice President of the British Horse Society? 'Our Vice-Presidents play a valuable role in the presentation of The British Horse Society to the wider equestrian community'. http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/about-us-and-our-work/our-people  How can someone be selected as being valuable to the BHS and then discarded so easily? Do you know any more JanetGeorge?
		
Click to expand...

lol, I don't think there are two Lady Anne Vestey's.  I didn't realize she was a Vice President (keeping track of everything is doing my head in right now.)  I WILL find out more.  Must study the constitution - find out whether tey can dump Vice-Presidents - or just Welfare volunteers.


----------



## RaposadeGengibre (8 November 2018)

I am sorry but what is that huge tkmax banner sticking to posts?


----------



## JanetGeorge (8 November 2018)

RaposadeGengibre said:



			I am sorry but what is that huge tkmax banner sticking to posts?
		
Click to expand...

lol, it popped up when I tried to quote that post - but it deleted from my reply as ordered.


----------



## RaposadeGengibre (8 November 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			lol, it popped up when I tried to quote that post - but it deleted from my reply as ordered.
		
Click to expand...

Its blimmin' huge! F seems to be sticking randomly to different users. WTF? Another way to avoid adblockers or something?


----------



## Tiddlypom (8 November 2018)

RaposadeGengibre said:



			I am sorry but what is that huge tkmax banner sticking to posts?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe the CE has a majority stake in TKMax .

I (and others) have reported the ad to admin on the Feedback board.


----------



## GHamlet75 (8 November 2018)

I think it's because advertisers have realised this thread is getting so much attention that they think it's a perfect place to target lots of customers . We are now over 35,000 views everyone!


----------



## GHamlet75 (8 November 2018)

Interesting point to note - my post from yesterday (post 246) says it was 'Last edited by a moderator: Today at 11:01 AM'. I think (hope) they edited to remove the annoying advertisement. It means that H&H can edit our content if they want to. However, despite the British Horse Society insisting that our content is removed, H&H have decided that freedom of speech is acceptable.


----------



## Jangigs (8 November 2018)

ADVERTISEMENT​

ADVERTISEMENT​



















ADVERTISEMENT​








































GHamlet75 said:



			Interesting point to note - my post from yesterday (post 246) says it was 'Last edited by a moderator: Today at 11:01 AM'. I think (hope) they edited to remove the annoying advertisement. It means that H&H can edit our content if they want to. However, despite the British Horse Society insisting that our content is removed, H&H have decided that freedom of speech is acceptable.
		
Click to expand...

Word has it yet another long standing member of staff has resigned from the communications dept and another member of that department is working her notice period. In current CEOs period of office the number must be around the 150 mark. Abysmal employment record


----------



## Orangehorse (8 November 2018)

The BHS has just done a great job regarding the new Highway Code review in parliament and with the Dead Slow campaign.  Did anyone watch the debate on Parliament TV?  Was anyone aware of it?  Without the BHS who can lobby on behalf of horse owners?  So I get worried when people say they want to give up their membership.


----------



## Karen 71 (8 November 2018)

I think you'll find the
Pass Wide & Slow group
The Horse Access Campaign
have been just as active, if not more than the BHS
They were on to the highway code review before the BHS woke up so never fear there are others working just as hard and getting results​





















Orangehorse said:



			The BHS has just done a great job regarding the new Highway Code review in parliament and with the Dead Slow campaign.  Did anyone watch the debate on Parliament TV?  Was anyone aware of it?  Without the BHS who can lobby on behalf of horse owners?  So I get worried when people say they want to give up their membership.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Karen 71 (8 November 2018)

That blimmin huge advert is still around!


----------



## GHamlet75 (9 November 2018)

Orangehorse said:



			The BHS has just done a great job regarding the new Highway Code review in parliament and with the Dead Slow campaign.  Did anyone watch the debate on Parliament TV?  Was anyone aware of it?  Without the BHS who can lobby on behalf of horse owners?  So I get worried when people say they want to give up their membership.
		
Click to expand...

Hi Orangehorse

I don't think anyone here is disputing that the British Horse Society does do some good work. The reason for this thread is to highlight how the charity achieves that work. To highlight that the annual donations and income of 11.2 million pounds from people might not be used as effectively as it could be, and to highlight that the cost of achieving this work is perhaps at the sacrifice of employee well being.


----------



## Red-1 (9 November 2018)

I have not gone through the terms and conditions, but World Horse Welfare has now got inexpensive insurance for 3rd party cover, personal accident, and a limited vets cover (external injury) for Â£130 a year. That does seem like value!

I appreciate it is not as comprehensive as proper insurance companies cover vets fees, but for some cover it seems like looking into. 

https://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/ChampionPlus-with-Veterinary


----------



## HectorTTerry (11 November 2018)

Jangigs said:



			Word has it yet another long standing member of staff has resigned from the communications dept and another member of that department is working her notice period. In current CEOs period of office the number must be around the 150 mark. Abysmal employment record
		
Click to expand...

At the beginning of 2017, the Marketing and Communications department had 14 employees. Within less than 2 years there are only 2 employees left from this original team. That is a staff turnover rate of 87%. 

While 12 employees have left during this period, another 3 employees have started and finished within the same time. That is a total of 15 employees (2 contracted) who have left the Marketing and Communications department within less than 2 years. 

The total head count of the department at present is unclear due to restructures and new positions created. 

Employees who have left over this period include one director and six managers. The depth of knowledge of some of these managers is extensive and some individuals have left without another position to go to. 

LinkedIn shows this high turnover of staff is not unusual for this department. It also demonstrates the IT department has had a similar high turnover of staff â€“ however it is unclear how many of these roles were contracted.


----------



## GHamlet75 (13 November 2018)

Wow HectorTTerry. These are shocking facts. It's sad that the British Horse Society denies there are any issues with staff turnover because until they admit there is an issue, this will not be tackled. 

_"Employee turnover cost is usually defined as the cost to hire a replacement employee and train that replacement. Often the training costs are only those to get the new employee productive, but they should include all the costs of getting the new employee to the same level of productivity as the employee who left.

These costs include both direct costs like the fee paid to a recruiter to find candidates for you as well as indirect costs like the business you lost because you didn't have the capacity to handle it all while you were short-staffed.

Generally, the higher your turnover rate, the higher both your direct and indirect costs will be. And as the turnover rate increases, the costs will increase faster."  https://www.thebalancecareers.com/the-high-cost-of-high-employee-turnover-2276010 _

As Jangigs mentions there are long standing members of staff who have decided to leave. How does the BHS intend on replacing that lost knowledge?

I know I sound like a broken record but the concern here is the cost to the society (is this really good use of members' donations?), the cost to people's careers and most importantly, the cost to individual's well being.


----------



## GHamlet75 (14 November 2018)

_"Employee turnover is costly to businesses, with the average cost of replacing an employee hovering around 20 percent of that personâ€™s salary. When turnover is high, those costs can skyrocket. However, high turnover is usually an indication that there are problems with the management of the company, including incompetence or a poor leadership styleâ€¦ Itâ€™s been said that people donâ€™t leave jobs, they leave managers"._ 
https://careertrend.com/high-turnover-rate-say-management-13696.html


----------



## JanetGeorge (19 November 2018)

This thread has gone very quiet.  Have any BHS members heard anything more about the AGM in early January 2019 - or is it a myth?


----------



## GHamlet75 (20 November 2018)

Not heard anything yet but if there is going to be one it has to be announced in the magazine and by email so keep your eyes peeled! Check out the below: 

Following a vote by members at the 2009 AGM, the Society no longer holds automatic Annual General Meetings. Extraordinary General Meetings (EGMs) will be held as and when necessary and members will be notified electronically where we have their email addresses, and in writing through British Horse.

Election Board Meetings (EBMs) are held to announce results of Trustee elections and are also open to members. Although these meetings are usually brief, they provide an opportunity for members to meet Trustees and put questions to them in person.

http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/about-us-and-our-work/corporate-information/general-meetings


----------



## GHamlet75 (20 November 2018)

Btw donâ€™t worry about the lack of comments JanetGeorge. Itâ€™s still being watched by plenty of peopleâ€¦ can you believe that despite the lack of recent activity weâ€™re nearly at 40,000 views!!!!


----------



## Karen 71 (20 November 2018)

Last I heard, 3 had been constructively dismissed, one of whom was in charge of British Horse magazine. What next I wonder!


----------



## JanetGeorge (21 November 2018)

Karen 71 said:



			Last I heard, 3 had been constructively dismissed, one of whom was in charge of British Horse magazine. What next I wonder!
		
Click to expand...

Do you know if all 3 had been there for the 2 years - and whether they are taking action?  Maybe it's the sort of money squandering the Board might HAVE to 'notice'.


----------



## Karen 71 (22 November 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Do you know if all 3 had been there for the 2 years - and whether they are taking action?  Maybe it's the sort of money squandering the Board might HAVE to 'notice'.
		
Click to expand...

Apparently in marketing dept, one in charge British horse and longest serving 18 months I believe.


----------



## JanetGeorge (22 November 2018)

Karen 71 said:



			Apparently in marketing dept, one in charge British horse and longest serving 18 months I believe.
		
Click to expand...

BHS Marketing seems to replace staff rather faster than some people chage their underwear.  Unfortunately, constructive dismissal requires 2 years continuous service, as does unfair dismissal.


----------



## GHamlet75 (23 November 2018)

Who is reviewing the exit interviews? Who is taking the key learnings from why so many people are leaving the British Horse Society? The BHS will claim there are good and bad leavers and that it is a perfectly normal staff turnover. However talk to any recruitment agent and they will quickly tell you otherwise. There is a problem and it needs addressing


----------



## Karen 71 (23 November 2018)

Well we know what the problem is but she's sticking like poo to a blanket!


----------



## JanetGeorge (27 November 2018)

Karen 71 said:



			Well we know what the problem is but she's sticking like poo to a blanket!
		
Click to expand...

And will be even more unstickable after the AGM on 5th January, 2019.  Changes to the constitution are planned.  If passed, they will keep her 'controllable' Chairman in place a bit longer, and give more power to the Board to add Trustees who are NOT voting members, and may be chosen for the wrong reasons.  Less say for the Members, of course.  They can be ignored even easier.


----------



## GHamlet75 (28 November 2018)

Please, please, please pass on to all members about the new proposed changes to the constitution that the CE wants to implement. It will enable the CE to do anything by any means. She will control the trustees and prevent the members from having a voice. This is the final nail in the coffin of the British Horse Society if this goes through. If you care about the welfare of horses or human beings, then please stand up against this proposal.


----------



## JanetGeorge (28 November 2018)

It certainly could be the final nail, GHamlet75.  The most frightening change is the big increase in the number of voting members it will take to DEMAND an EGM from "12 to 0.25% of the membership on the preceding 1 January
rounded to the nearest 100,"  I would guess that would only be 0.25% of Gold Members (and the BHS doesn't seem too quick to disclose how many of each group there is.)  But if it's 70,000, then that means the number of voting members needed to get an EGM will increase from 12 - to TWO HUNDRED!!!  And the whole 200 will have to sign the same document!!!


----------



## Charliew00 (28 November 2018)

Are there other websites or facebook pages raising concerns about what's happening.


----------



## honetpot (28 November 2018)

So 200 of us. So perhaps we need to do a poll of members on here
Are you a member ?
Would you be prepared to sign the form?
Can we have your email address/postal address?
Set up a FB page for communication and get it signed

Olympia could be one venue for signing.


----------



## Charliew00 (28 November 2018)

Before asking people to sign a petition you would need to let them know exactly what has been going on. Maybe somehow or other encourage people to read this thread.


----------



## Cowpony (28 November 2018)

https://www.gov.uk/complain-about-charity


----------



## Lovethebeach (29 November 2018)

Is anyone going to the meeting that we can appoint as proxy on the form that has just come with British Horse magazine?


----------



## anguscat (30 November 2018)

My Gold membership comes up in Jan. â€˜Should I Stay or Should I Goâ€™ (to eg World Horse Welfare)?
Maybe there are others like me reading this thread with concern and sympathy but who are less knowledgeable of the politics and what the opportunities for action are.
What do you want the interested and concerned members to actually DO (all I actually do is read this thread) to keep the power base of the BHS broad and to put a brake on the hire and fire culture?


----------



## Cowpony (30 November 2018)

Lovethebeach said:



			Is anyone going to the meeting that we can appoint as proxy on the form that has just come with British Horse magazine?
		
Click to expand...

Yes I'd be keen to give my proxy to somebody. We can give it to the chairman and stipulate that he votes no on our behalf, but in the basis of this thread in not sure I trust them!


----------



## JanetGeorge (30 November 2018)

Cowpony said:



			Yes I'd be keen to give my proxy to somebody. We can give it to the chairman and stipulate that he votes no on our behalf, but in the basis of this thread in not sure I trust them!
		
Click to expand...

Very definitely NOT the Chairman - apart from his honesty or otherwise, he personally will benefit from at least one of the proposed changes.  If I were still a member and couldn't get there, I think I'd go for Andrea Jackman.  Yes, she is a Regional employee - but totally honest and brave.


----------



## Cowpony (30 November 2018)

Does anybody know how many votes we need to prevent it happening?


----------



## JanetGeorge (30 November 2018)

Cowpony said:



			Does anybody know how many votes we need to prevent it happening?
		
Click to expand...

Quite a few, I suspect, because a lot of people would just give proxies to the Chairman - but really, it's ANYONE'S guess.


----------



## Art Nouveau (30 November 2018)

Presumably Andrea would need to give her permission to act as proxy? She might get rather inundated with requests from people like me who want to do something but don't know what.


----------



## Cowpony (30 November 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Quite a few, I suspect, because a lot of people would just give proxies to the Chairman - but really, it's ANYONE'S guess.
		
Click to expand...

I've just checked. In order to change the Articles of Association you need a special resolution.  To pass a special resolution you need at least 75% of the votes to be in favour.  I think that's 75% of the votes cast - so either people in the room or proxy votes - not 75% of all possible votes (but legal people please check me on this).  Per the current articles each voting member has one vote.

So without knowing how many votes they have on their side, either in the room or as proxies, we don't know how many we need to block it.  So I would suggest we quietly lobby all the people we know who are voting members either to go along or to send their proxy to somebody to vote on their behalf.  As AN above says, it would have to be somebody who is prepared to do it.


----------



## JanetGeorge (30 November 2018)

Art Nouveau said:



			Presumably Andrea would need to give her permission to act as proxy? She might get rather inundated with requests from people like me who want to do something but don't know what.
		
Click to expand...

lol, and voting proxies against the Board is probably a sackable offence.


----------



## JanetGeorge (30 November 2018)

Right - for those of you who would like a GOOD proxy, please contact Lisa Cowley - who is the BHS Chairman  for the West Midlands.  They've already tried to ditch her - but she's a fighter and  is one you can trust completely.  Please contact her - l.cowley@yahoo.co.uk


----------



## catkin (30 November 2018)

Where do I find the Articles of Association please.
Usually a Chairman HAS to use any proxies they receive according to the wishes of the member(s) who gave them the proxy(ies)  - there is a box on the form for that. I'd be very surprised if it is any different for the BHS but could be wrong.


----------



## Cowpony (30 November 2018)

You can find the articles on the Companies House website. Look at recent filings. They changed the Articles in 2016 and they are attached to the resolution. They don't cover how the chairman has to deal with proxy votes. You are right, the chairman must vote as instructed on the proxy form. I'm just a bit suspicious that there may be a miscount, whereas if another person has the proxies they know how many votes they have.


----------



## Orangehorse (30 November 2018)

I read the paper and really didn't understand, so I guess not many other people will.  I didn't like the sound of the change in numbers needed to call a vote.

What is the intended outcome, hardly world domination?


----------



## JanetGeorge (30 November 2018)

Orangehorse said:



			I read the paper and really didn't understand, so I guess not many other people will.  I didn't like the sound of the change in numbers needed to call a vote.

What is the intended outcome, hardly world domination?
		
Click to expand...

The change in numbers - from 12 to 200 by my math, is bad, obviously.  It would just make it a bit harder to demand an EGM.

The most worrying thing is the ability of the Board to increase the number of 'friendly' board members - who don't even have to be members and who aren't voted in by members.  That gives the Board far more power.  Then of course there is the extention of the time that the well-trained little Chairman can keep his position.  All of this is engineered by the tame little Chairman and the Trumpette!  She wants to safeguard her power.


----------



## honetpot (1 December 2018)

Could anyone give me the link for information about the meeting. I have looked on the website and I can not find it.


----------



## JanetGeorge (1 December 2018)

The teensy envelope it was sent out in - along with the usual advertsiing stuff in British Horse - means a lot ofpeople didn't ind it and many of those teensy envelopes probably went in the bin.  Not sure if HHO will like pdf files attached - but will try.


----------



## rabatsa (1 December 2018)

Mine nearly hit the bin with the rubbish.  Normally the voting stuff is on large sheets and not easy to miss.  This has small print and takes some working out.  Almost as if they had something to hide.  We are joint gold members in this house but only one set of voting papers.


----------



## JanetGeorge (1 December 2018)

rabatsa said:



			Mine nearly hit the bin with the rubbish.  Normally the voting stuff is on large sheets and not easy to miss.  This has small print and takes some working out.  Almost as if they had something to hide.  We are joint gold members in this house but only one set of voting papers.
		
Click to expand...

Papers designed to give members even LESS voice are definitely something to TRY and hide.  Either photocopy a new set, or print from the .pdf.  Or even better, ring up the BHS and DEMAND another set of papers (might as well let them know their subterfuge has failed.)


----------



## Charliew00 (1 December 2018)

rabatsa said:



			Mine nearly hit the bin with the rubbish.  Normally the voting stuff is on large sheets and not easy to miss.  This has small print and takes some working out.  Almost as if they had something to hide.  We are joint gold members in this house but only one set of voting papers.
		
Click to expand...

We're joint members (at the moment!) and are going to copy the form and hope it will be accepted.


----------



## honetpot (1 December 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			The teensy envelope it was sent out in - along with the usual advertsiing stuff in British Horse - means a lot ofpeople didn't ind it and many of those teensy envelopes probably went in the bin.  Not sure if HHO will like pdf files attached - but will try.
		
Click to expand...


Should be easy print this off and use, so we need to keep 'bumping it'.
https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/attachments/egm-notice-pdf.27760/


----------



## JanetGeorge (1 December 2018)

honetpot said:



			Should be easy print this off and use, so we need to keep 'bumping it'.
https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/attachments/egm-notice-pdf.27760/

Click to expand...

Don't worry - I have some more tit-bits coming to me in the post - and they'll all be here.


----------



## Karen 71 (1 December 2018)

Charliew00 said:



			Are there other websites or facebook pages raising concerns about what's happening.
		
Click to expand...

Allan Blackett has put a post on FB, check it out


----------



## honetpot (1 December 2018)

__ https://www.facebook.com/allan.blackett.3/posts/10213221582522640


----------



## Lovethebeach (1 December 2018)

Thank you, that is brilliant  have shared to other FB groups


----------



## whiteflower (2 December 2018)

I've seen this on Facebook too and will be sending my proxy vote to Linda Blackett. Let's hope this gets seen by enough people as this thread is very long now ! Changes they are proposing are not good and I can only see it as a way to protect themselves further and keep themselves in control. Not the ethos of the organisation I joined many moons ago. Sad state things are now


----------



## Sussexbythesea (2 December 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			The teensy envelope it was sent out in - along with the usual advertsiing stuff in British Horse - means a lot ofpeople didn't ind it and many of those teensy envelopes probably went in the bin.  Not sure if HHO will like pdf files attached - but will try.
		
Click to expand...

I literally read your post whilst drinking my morning tea and looked to my right and saw the envelope which youâ€™re right I hadnâ€™t even noticed.


----------



## SO1 (2 December 2018)

I did not see it, I must have thrown it out with the advertising 

This should have been sent as a separate letter so people would be more likely to open it and not think it was junk mail...

They should have also sent an email as back up to let people know about the planned changes and give people time to respond, and offer a consultation rather than straight into a vote. There is no clear explanation about why they want to make the changes and how it will improve the Society. Really poor governance. 

How can we find someone to go and vote as Proxy. Can our regional representatives do this, or is anyone offering for those members who cant get to the meeting





JanetGeorge said:



			The teensy envelope it was sent out in - along with the usual advertsiing stuff in British Horse - means a lot ofpeople didn't ind it and many of those teensy envelopes probably went in the bin.  Not sure if HHO will like pdf files attached - but will try.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## honetpot (2 December 2018)

This is the pdf for the voting slip
https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/attachments/egm-notice-pdf.27760/


----------



## ester (2 December 2018)

blimey yes it was tucked away wasn't it! 

So technically if I tick against I don't have to appoint a proxy?

Why is Linda posting as Allan?


----------



## LisaMarie1984 (2 December 2018)

ester said:



			blimey yes it was tucked away wasn't it!

So technically if I tick against I don't have to appoint a proxy?

Why is Linda posting as Allan?
		
Click to expand...

You will have to appoint a proxy to attend. You don't have to tick a choice you can allow them to vote for you.


----------



## LisaMarie1984 (2 December 2018)

SO1 said:



			I did not see it, I must have thrown it out with the advertising

This should have been sent as a separate letter so people would be more likely to open it and not think it was junk mail...

They should have also sent an email as back up to let people know about the planned changes and give people time to respond, and offer a consultation rather than straight into a vote. There is no clear explanation about why they want to make the changes and how it will improve the Society. Really poor governance.

How can we find someone to go and vote as Proxy. Can our regional representatives do this, or is anyone offering for those members who cant get to the meeting
		
Click to expand...

Hi

I am the Regional Chairman for West Midlands and have said I am happy to act as a proxy for members in my region and further afield if required as i know some people are concerned about the weather and it would have to be pretty dire for me not to be able to get there.

I have emailed BHS today to check the date proxy votes are required as it states they need to be received 3 business days before the meeting. I have also asked if they can be tabled on the day as if there is bad weather people may not get there or if people should appoint a proxy and revoke on the day if they can attend.

Lisa


----------



## ester (2 December 2018)

but there is a tick box for and against on the proxy form? and if I don't appoint someone it goes to the chairman.


----------



## LisaMarie1984 (2 December 2018)

Lovethebeach said:



			Is anyone going to the meeting that we can appoint as proxy on the form that has just come with British Horse magazine?
		
Click to expand...

Hi

I am attending and happy to be a proxy if required.

Lisa


----------



## LisaMarie1984 (2 December 2018)

ester said:



			but there is a tick box for and against on the proxy form? and if I don't appoint someone it goes to the chairman.
		
Click to expand...

Yes you can leave blank and have as the chairman, but i you don't know which way you want to vote and want a proxy who votes on the day you need to appoint someone.


----------



## ester (2 December 2018)

why would I leave it blank when it provides me with boxes to tick if I know which way I would vote. 

The suggestion in the facebook post above is that if you do tick the box they won't be counted. Hence my first post saying technically ticking said box is all I should need to do.


----------



## honetpot (2 December 2018)

ester said:



			blimey yes it was tucked away wasn't it!

So technically if I tick against I don't have to appoint a proxy?

Why is Linda posting as Allan?
		
Click to expand...

No I am not posting as Allan. I have just found his FB post and copied on to here. It took me 30 mins to find so I thought other people may have the same problem.


----------



## ester (2 December 2018)

It was signed off as Linda on the facebook post, that is what confused me?


----------



## JanetGeorge (2 December 2018)

VERY IMPORTANT re PROXIES!

Iâ€™ve just read the proxy vote info, it says that the form needs to be received no later than three business days before the meeting so if people are sending them to another person and they are taking them on the day they wonâ€™t be valid! People need to be made aware and send to the office via recorded delivery or emailed with a read receipt   Then send copy to selected proxy holder so she has proof and can check on the day.

ETA: The office is closed from Fri 21st until 2 Jan so theyâ€™d need to be in BEFORE Friday 21st - or they have the perfect excuse to exclude.  And of course mail is slow before Christmas - so be quick.


----------



## fidleyspromise (2 December 2018)

The PDFs that have been put here.  Can we use that for voting and send to a proxy or do we need to have the original form from BHS?  I can't remember if I've received my BHS Magazine yet and if so, the form will be long gone.

Edited:  Just checked postbox and BHS Mag is there so I have my voting slip.


----------



## ester (2 December 2018)

I'd think it be fine to send the PDF, it's exactly the same you fill in membership number etc. 

Though there really should be an easier way of doing it in this day and age!


----------



## Velcrobum (2 December 2018)

Would it be possible for an address to be posted for proxy votes to be sent to please.


----------



## Tiddlypom (2 December 2018)

Latest edition of British Horse, along with insignificant envelope containing details of the forthcoming General Meeting in amongst the flyers which head straight to recycling.




Page 5 of the mag waxes lyrical about the On the Move initiative (the very expensive vanity horsebox).


----------



## ester (2 December 2018)

I saw mine the other way up too... nothing written on that side re. it being important at all!


----------



## On the Hoof (2 December 2018)

The address for proxy votes to be sent to BHS is:
Duncan Snook-General Meeting
The British Horse Society
Abbey Park
Stareton 
Kenilworth
Warwickshire
CV8 2XZ

Or email the PDF to:
Generalmeeting@bhs.org.uk

Sorry but I don't know the real names of those agreeing to be proxy and who are attending.  Can whoever is prepared to,do this pm me so that I can complete my form, I'll send copy of form back to you once completed.


----------



## Blazingsaddles (2 December 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			Latest edition of British Horse, along with insignificant envelope containing details of the forthcoming General Meeting in amongst the flyers which head straight to recycling.

View attachment 27802


Page 5 of the mag waxes lyrical about the On the Move initiative (the very expensive vanity horsebox).
		
Click to expand...

What an effing joke. My mag arrived and like many other recipicients Iâ€™m sure, the flyers, including details re EGM were chucked. Will not be renewing membership next year & disgusted at the obvious ploy by the BHS to keep things under the radar. Philip Green should get involved with the BHS, they appear to have a lot in common......


----------



## LisaMarie1984 (2 December 2018)

On the Hoof said:



			The address for proxy votes to be sent to BHS is:
Duncan Snook-General Meeting
The British Horse Society
Abbey Park
Stareton
Kenilworth
Warwickshire
CV8 2XZ

Or email the PDF to:
Generalmeeting@bhs.org.uk

Sorry but I don't know the real names of those agreeing to be proxy and who are attending.  Can whoever is prepared to,do this pm me so that I can complete my form, I'll send copy of form back to you once completed.
		
Click to expand...

Hi

You can contact me on l.cowley@yahoo.co.uk

Lisa


----------



## SO1 (2 December 2018)

It appears you can email the proxy form "As an alternative to returning this hard-copy proxy form, you can appoint a proxy electronically by emailing generalmeeting@bhs.org.uk attaching this proxy form. For an electronic proxy appointment to be valid, your appointment must be received by the Company no later three business days before the date of the meeting"

Do you think this is a bit risky emailing it as they might not receive it?


----------



## Frumpoon (2 December 2018)

I've found my proxy form, can somebody tell me in simple terms what I need to do?


----------



## JanetGeorge (2 December 2018)

SO1 said:



			It appears you can email the proxy form "As an alternative to returning this hard-copy proxy form, you can appoint a proxy electronically by emailing generalmeeting@bhs.org.uk attaching this proxy form. For an electronic proxy appointment to be valid, your appointment must be received by the Company no later three business days before the date of the meeting"

Do you think this is a bit risky emailing it as they might not receive it?
		
Click to expand...

I don't know of any e-mail program that doesn't give you the opportunity to request a receipt - received and/or read.


----------



## SO1 (2 December 2018)

Do people think there is a conflict of interest if the Chair is the main proxy for people who don't know anyone going to meeting as that person will be affected by the vote? It would be so much easier if I could just tick the box that says no and get the Chair to be proxy but from what people are saying he might not honest?  If this is really the case they should be reported to the Charity Commission.


----------



## ester (2 December 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			I don't know of any e-mail program that doesn't give you the opportunity to request a receipt - received and/or read.
		
Click to expand...

outlook/hotmail doesn't!


----------



## Chica (2 December 2018)

Hi Everyone this is my first ever post on any forum . I have however been following this thread for a while and have been very concerned regarding the contents . Finally I can no longer contain myself . I'm totally livid that I have been taken for a fool and have fallen for the cunning plan . I have thrown my envelope out with the advertising as it appears was intended . However thanks to this forum I will retrieve it in the morning.  Mind you I'm now starting to think I will go to the meeting as my sadness of what appears to be happening to the BHS is growing . I have been a member for well over 20 years and it's true to say that I'm loosing faith rapidly .


----------



## Cowpony (3 December 2018)

SO1 said:



			Do people think there is a conflict of interest if the Chair is the main proxy for people who don't know anyone going to meeting as that person will be affected by the vote? It would be so much easier if I could just tick the box that says no and get the Chair to be proxy but from what people are saying he might not honest?  If this is really the case they should be reported to the Charity Commission.
		
Click to expand...

It's standard procedure for the chairman to be appointed proxy. It's gets over the problem of voters not knowing somebody else to appoint as their proxy. And the chairman isn't going to be opening the post and logging all the proxies himself. An employee will be doing that ðŸ˜‰


----------



## Tiddlypom (3 December 2018)

Cowpony said:



			It's standard procedure for the chairman to be appointed proxy. It's gets over the problem of voters not knowing somebody else to appoint as their proxy. And the chairman isn't going to be opening the post and logging all the proxies himself. An employee will be doing that ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

An employee 'opening the post and logging the proxies' is exactly what I'm worried about.. Who knows what will be logged.


----------



## Cowpony (3 December 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			An employee 'opening the post and logging the proxies' is exactly what I'm worried about.. Who knows what will be logged.
		
Click to expand...

Yes exactly. I was trying to say I wouldn't trust the process, without getting myself done for libel! ðŸ˜€


----------



## Tiddlypom (3 December 2018)

Also, even if the proxies are logged correctly, Head Office will know in advance how many proxy votes there are and which way they voted. It's simple maths for them to deduce how many more proxies voting for the proposal would be required for it to pass if the numbers fell short of their desired outcome.


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (3 December 2018)

Surely, this should have had an independent scrutineer for all voting forms to be sent to?
As has been the case when breed societies needed to have EGM docs, or amendments done by vote?


----------



## catkin (3 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			Surely, this should have had an independent scrutineer for all voting forms to be sent to?
As has been the case when breed societies needed to have EGM docs, or amendments done by vote?
		
Click to expand...

I thought this was the law of the land so it will need to be done like this.

Reading the notes on the form - you must mark the box to indicate your voting intentions though or the proxy can vote as they think you want.


----------



## Reacher (4 December 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			VERY IMPORTANT re PROXIES!

Iâ€™ve just read the proxy vote info, it says that the form needs to be received no later than three business days before the meeting so if people are sending them to another person and they are taking them on the day they wonâ€™t be valid! People need to be made aware and send to the office via recorded delivery or emailed with a read receipt   Then send copy to selected proxy holder so she has proof and can check on the day.

ETA: The office is closed from Fri 21st until 2 Jan so theyâ€™d need to be in BEFORE Friday 21st - or they have the perfect excuse to exclude.  And of course mail is slow before Christmas - so be quick.
		
Click to expand...

I read this as being if you were sending proxy vote to the chairman, not if sending to another person attending. Not got form with me to check. Confusing.


----------



## sywell (5 December 2018)

The Horse and Pony Breeds committee was disbanded by the BHS on the grounds that we represented Registered horses and ID only horses and the BHS only issued passports for ID only. Having been on this committee through various Chairs from Col.York,Loriston-Clark and Pat Campbell and having read this thread I suspect the reason had more to do with the policy of the committee that we had presentations on subjects like * EU REGULATION 2016/1012 (ANIMAL BREEDING REGULATION) * then the members went away and discussed with their boards what their organisations policy should be. Clearly in many cases this would not align itself to BHS Policy. The 826 Equine Studbooks Association has replaced the Horse and Pony Breeds Committee and all studbooks and breed societies are eligible for membership and we have 2 representatives on the Equine Sector Council which is the main industry link with DEFRA. At the weekend I attended a meeting of the WBFSH where Roly Ewers gave an excellent presentation on Social Licence and the Tyron WEG organiser gave their policy to include all horse users so that the equine industry has greater awareness of the size of this industry in global terms for sponsors  to get more support as we have more followers than football and see there is more to the equine sector than elite competition horses.


----------



## Reacher (5 December 2018)

Iâ€™ve re-read the form and Janet George is correct that it does say all proxy forms have to be sent to head office 3 business  days before the meeting and does not differentiate as to whether you have appointed someone other than the chairman as your proxy.
So to be on the safe side I am going to both email my form to both the chairman and my proxy (Linda if she doesnâ€™t mind) and send my paper copy to head office by recorded delivery.


Reacher said:



			I read this as being if you were sending proxy vote to the chairman, not if sending to another person attending. Not got form with me to check. Confusing.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## JanetGeorge (6 December 2018)

Loriane Young is a past Chairman of BHS Scotland.

Dear  Members,      This is an important email which I would like you to act on as the recognition is being eroded to the extent they will have no say in the way the BHS is run.     Our paid staff cannot be involved in this.    Please pass this information on to as many BHS members as you can, Thank you,  Loraine Young
 General Meeting 5th January.
 You will have received an envelope in your copy of British Horse.   Do not throw it away!!
 You may have noticed that over the past two years members have not been consulted or involved in any of the many decisions which have appeared as pronouncements.
 This was very clearly highlighted when two very good candidates were nominated by members to fill the two vacancies on the Board of Trustees.      They were rejected as â€œnot being suitableâ€ even though nominated by members who clearly know they were capable and suitable.     The Chairman and the board then co-opted two trustees of their choice who had not been nominated or filled the criteria.     This is a clear breach of the democratic right of members to nominate trustees and amounts to dictatorship and a manipulation of the election.
 Members are being ignored and the resolutions being voted on at the above meeting further erode the rights of paying members and give them less say in how the BHS is administered.
 Please use your proxy vote against these proposed resolutions and restore democracy if you are unable to attend the meeting.    
 To use your proxy vote nominate your proxy who will attend the meeting, sign the form including your membership number and then send your completed form to Duncan Snooks at The BHS, Abbey Park, Stareton, Kenilworth, Warwickshire, CV8 2XZ by the 20th December.
 Loraine Young is prepared to act as a proxy and will attend the meeting.

If you require to see how many members are unhappy with the way the BHS is run go to the website Horse and Hound Forum:  Then click into â€œThe Tack Roomâ€ and scroll down to the second page and go into â€œ Another BHS C**ck Upâ€   There are eleven pages of comments and where things have gone wrong for members.


(Of course, we are now up to 12 pages and back on the front page, lol.)


----------



## honetpot (6 December 2018)

The thing that really surprises me about all this is the seems to have been no response to this thread and posts on FB, from the BHS 'management'.
  All right we could all be keyboard warriors, but some past very senior members are concerned by what is happening. People like them and the people they attract to help with the charitable aims of the society are the foundation of what the society has always been. If they want to change the 'business model' tell us why and should make their case, and to do  not make changes without fully informing members.
   I would just like a reasonable explanation of why they are trying to do what they are doing, are you allowed to ask these questions at the EGM?


----------



## JanetGeorge (6 December 2018)

honetpot said:



			I would just like a reasonable explanation of why they are trying to do what they are doing, are you allowed to ask these questions at the EGM?
		
Click to expand...

lol, I can tell you the answer.  They think members should be treated like mushrooms (as in - keep them in the dark and feed them manure.)  Then Ms Trump can continue with her grandiose ideas and her trips - at the members' cost.


----------



## Reacher (6 December 2018)

I emailed my form today to Duncan Snook stating my named proxy and stating that I had sent my proxy a copy. I received a polite reply confirming my vote had been assigned to my named proxy.


----------



## Orangehorse (6 December 2018)

I have just had an email from West Midlands and it included the notice and voting and proxy form.  Thank you for alerting me and making me vote.


----------



## JanetGeorge (6 December 2018)

Orangehorse said:



			I have just had an email from West Midlands and it included the notice and voting and proxy form.  Thank you for alerting me and making me vote.
		
Click to expand...

Just keep spreading the word.  Far too many members WILL have thrown out that envelope with the advertising garbage - and others won't read through and THINK about the proposed changes.  And then Madam Trump will have won - and the BHS and the horses it is MEANT to care about will lose.


----------



## Pen (7 December 2018)

So can someone in the know please tell me if sending in a proxy, is it best to tick the Against box myself or leave it blank and let my proxy(Loraine Young, as she has kindly offered) do the deed?  Just want to get it right! Tia.


----------



## Cowpony (7 December 2018)

Pen said:



			So can someone in the know please tell me if sending in a proxy, is it best to tick the Against box myself or leave it blank and let my proxy(Loraine Young, as she has kindly offered) do the deed?  Just want to get it right! Tia.
		
Click to expand...

Personally I'd tick the box myself just to be sure there were no errors.  But of course that alerts the BHS to which way you are voting....


----------



## JanetGeorge (7 December 2018)

Cowpony said:



			Personally I'd tick the box myself just to be sure there were no errors.  But of course that alerts the BHS to which way you are voting....
		
Click to expand...

lol, and if enough people do it that way, the meeting may miraculously 'disappear'!


----------



## Pen (8 December 2018)

Oh a bit of a quandary then.  Its a pretty poor show when you cant be 100 per cent sure that the proper procedures will be followed.  But all the more reason to vote in that case.


----------



## honetpot (8 December 2018)

I finally found it.
https://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/press-centre/news/2018/december/announcement-of-general-meeting

I have only been on simple committees, so I have not much experience of it going @rse up. So I downloaded the draft amendment's in full. It would have been helpful of them to mark the changes, but that not been done and I can not find a link for the currant constitution. Does anyone have it?


----------



## JanetGeorge (8 December 2018)

lol, that won't get anyone except you, there, ruth83  - unless they can hack your computer.  Here is the current constitution.


----------



## honetpot (8 December 2018)

The accounts 2017 give a simplified version of the currant structure
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends04/0000210504_AC_20171231_E_C.pdf
pages 4 & 5


----------



## JanetGeorge (9 December 2018)

I posted publicly on Facebook just 4 hours ago and already have had 5 requests for the info from BHS Members who threw that teensy envelope away (as planned by the BHS.)  Keep sharing, folks.  And for the latest viewers who have thrown theirs away, here it is.


----------



## GHamlet75 (9 December 2018)

Thanks JanetGeorge. That's really helpful as there are a number of my friends who don't have this. 

By the way everyone - we've flown passed 50,000 views so quickly that I missed the milestone. Thank you to everyone for continuing to support this thread. 

Please make sure you get your vote in to ensure that some form of democracy still remains in the British Horse Society.


----------



## JanetGeorge (9 December 2018)

And Pammy Hutton (who is a Fellow of the BHS) has my post on HER FB page - so the message is spreading fast.


----------



## ruth83 (9 December 2018)

â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..


----------



## ester (9 December 2018)

Well maybe one person, unless you have other examples? Though I see neither rudeness or being personal just highlighting that you have linked people to your personal C drive.


----------



## MrSmith (9 December 2018)

Do we have email contact details for those willing to act as proxies who are going so the we can cc. them on our nomination?


----------



## JanetGeorge (9 December 2018)

There are a few suitable proxies:  Lisa Cowley - who is Chair of BHS West Midlands.  Lisa Cowley [l.cowleyATyahoo.co.uk] (note change the AT, lol.)


----------



## OldNag (10 December 2018)

Found my form - thought it had gone  in the recycling. Have appointed  Lisa Cowley as my proxy.


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (10 December 2018)

Just had the Regional regular email through this morning, lots of info, but NOT a peep about the AGM! Nothing!!
Rather 'secret squirrel' of them to omit any mention.....


----------



## GHamlet75 (10 December 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			And Pammy Hutton (who is a Fellow of the BHS) has my post on HER FB page - so the message is spreading fast.
		
Click to expand...

 Great result JanetGeorge! Pammy has lots of followers


----------



## GHamlet75 (10 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			Just had the Regional regular email through this morning, lots of info, but NOT a peep about the AGM! Nothing!!
Rather 'secret squirrel' of them to omit any mention.....
		
Click to expand...

Hi The Xmas Furry
The Regional emails are sent by the Regional Managers. Unfortunately they are kept in the dark as much as members are. I believe the AGM and the changes to the constitution are something that the CE was hoping to keep under the radar on her quest for ultimate power and control.  However thanks to JanetGeorge, people are being made aware!


----------



## Velcrobum (10 December 2018)

I am being dense if I attend the meeting in person will we be able to vote then or do we have to send in our vote prior to the meeting?? I I personally am concerned the vote is not being administered by a third party independently of BHS.


----------



## JanetGeorge (10 December 2018)

Velcrobum said:



			I am being dense if I attend the meeting in person will we be able to vote then or do we have to send in our vote prior to the meeting?? I I personally am concerned the vote is not being administered by a third party independently of BHS.
		
Click to expand...

No - if you're going to be there, you can vote in person.  They'll probably do it as a written vote collected from members present and then add the proxy votes.  And - I agree with you - given the type of changes being proposed, it SHOULD be supervised independently.  (But I doubt that it will be.)


----------



## PAK (10 December 2018)

Now is the time to come to the aid of your society. Please see my post BHS BS. Go to the meeting. Ask the tough questions!


----------



## PAK (10 December 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			No - if you're going to be there, you can vote in person.  They'll probably do it as a written vote collected from members present and then add the proxy votes.  And - I agree with you - given the type of changes being proposed, it SHOULD be supervised independently.  (But I doubt that it will be.)
		
Click to expand...

This is the central point - nothing seems to be supervised independently. In my opinion, there are no effective checks and balances in the systems of governance and leadership.


----------



## PAK (10 December 2018)

honetpot said:






__ https://www.facebook.com/allan.blackett.3/posts/10213221582522640



Click to expand...




honetpot said:






__ https://www.facebook.com/allan.blackett.3/posts/10213221582522640



Click to expand...

Well said Linda! 
Please fight for the BHS we used to know, respect and support not the one we have at the moment, which is trying to deny the members of the society their democratic say and role


----------



## PAK (10 December 2018)

Red-Nose said:



			Oh, I have had a browse on Facebook. The post does not look very good for the BHS.

I don't know about any corruption, but I have not found them to be efficient or professional as an organisation. A bit left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing rather than any corruption.

They cost me a lot of money at one point with their inefficiency. But then, they did pay me back somewhat with the flood of Accredited Trainer jackets they sent and then did not want back.

It does seem very cliquey.

On the FB post it did seem ironic that someone is claiming that a senior staff member was banned from driving for 6 months for speeding during the BHS Slow Down For Horses campaign, and then claimed extra expenses from the charity as a result. Rather counterproductive and an own goal, but not corruption.
		
Click to expand...

This was fraud! And this was at the top of the hierarchy & nothing was done about it.


----------



## Karen 71 (11 December 2018)

I'm still unsure whether to send paper copy to Duncan Snook with my X in the against box and also send to my proxy, because the form says Duncan Snook has to have 3 days before. What has everyone else done because I don't trust BHS HQ


----------



## janiceb (11 December 2018)

Is voting at the meeting on 5th Jan anonymous if a member attends?


----------



## fidleyspromise (11 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			Just had the Regional regular email through this morning, lots of info, but NOT a peep about the AGM! Nothing!!
Rather 'secret squirrel' of them to omit any mention.....
		
Click to expand...

Interesting that an email has just popped up today from BHS specific to the AGM.


----------



## ester (11 December 2018)

Oh yes so it has, why do you have to notify them if you are attending in advance?


----------



## Velcrobum (11 December 2018)

I guess to make sure there is enough space for everyone especially as the meeting is being highlighted via social media and that the responses are generally not favourable to BHS.


----------



## honetpot (11 December 2018)

Well an email has just popped in my box with information about the meeting. Perhaps the complaints havenâ€™t fallen on deaf ears. Has anyone else had one?


----------



## Karen 71 (11 December 2018)

honetpot said:



			Well an email has just popped in my box with information about the meeting. Perhaps the complaints havenâ€™t fallen on deaf ears. Has anyone else had one?
		
Click to expand...

Yes I have one now. I did ask a question earlier today about whether we should send our proxy form in two directions as I don't trust anyone in BHS any more if they see an against vote.


----------



## ester (11 December 2018)

yup


----------



## PAK (11 December 2018)

fidleyspromise said:



			Interesting that an email has just popped up today from BHS specific to the AGM.
		
Click to expand...

They have heard the jungle drums


----------



## PAK (11 December 2018)

honetpot said:



			Well an email has just popped in my box with information about the meeting. Perhaps the complaints havenâ€™t fallen on deaf ears. Has anyone else had one?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, they have heard the drums


----------



## PAK (11 December 2018)

Velcrobum said:



			I guess to make sure there is enough space for everyone especially as the meeting is being highlighted via social media and that the responses are generally not favourable to BHS.
		
Click to expand...

Let's hope the room is packed to overflowing


----------



## PAK (11 December 2018)

fidleyspromise said:



			Interesting that an email has just popped up today from BHS specific to the AGM.
		
Click to expand...

They have heard the drums


----------



## On the Hoof (11 December 2018)

Is the email going to all members or just regional chairs etc ??


----------



## honetpot (11 December 2018)

I am just a member


----------



## honetpot (11 December 2018)

Itâ€™s funny that in the accounts 2017, most of the income comes from membership, so you think they would a) to consult members before any changes  were proposed, and b) want to keep us happy.
So what do we need to make us happy?


----------



## honetpot (11 December 2018)

http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/p...il&utm_term=0_ce97b82f97-49d192a8c3-208449535
So some answers??

 'The calling of a General meeting needs to be a fair and democratic process. The current membership of the Society is in excess of 104,000. To allow 12 members to call a General Meeting has the potential to be unrepresentative of the whole membership. Changing the number required to a percentage will reflect a proportion of the membership, whether that increases or decreases. If the number required is low this can give rise to unwarranted and frivolous actions that might bring the Society under risk. If the number required is too high this would clearly be undemocratic. It is considered that 0.25% is representative.'
  This would sound reasonable if GM were a common occurrence, as its is,

' Following a vote by members at the 2009 AGM, the Society no longer holds automatic Annual General Meetings. Extraordinary General Meetings (EGMs) will be held as and when necessary and members will be notified electronically where we have their email addresses, and in writing through British Horse.'


----------



## PAK (11 December 2018)

On the Hoof said:



			Is the email going to all members or just regional chairs etc ??
		
Click to expand...

I am no longer a chair so I assume it has gone to all members.


----------



## catkin (11 December 2018)

I'm just a member. I had an e-mail this afternoon.


----------



## PAK (11 December 2018)

honetpot said:



http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/p...il&utm_term=0_ce97b82f97-49d192a8c3-208449535
So some answers??
		
Click to expand...

If recruitment of trustees can not be done from within the current membership, something is out of alignment!


----------



## JanetGeorge (11 December 2018)

honetpot said:



http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/p...il&utm_term=0_ce97b82f97-49d192a8c3-208449535
So some answers??

'The calling of a General meeting needs to be a fair and democratic process. The current membership of the Society is in excess of 104,000. To allow 12 members to call a General Meeting has the potential to be unrepresentative of the whole membership. Changing the number required to a percentage will reflect a proportion of the membership, whether that increases or decreases. If the number required is low this can give rise to unwarranted and frivolous actions that might bring the Society under risk. If the number required is too high this would clearly be undemocratic. It is considered that 0.25% is representative.'
  This would sound reasonable if GM were a common occurrence, as its is,
		
Click to expand...

Lol, and while they are talking about membership, as I understand it, only Gold Members CAN vote.  SO, is the membership number claimed TOTAL membership - or just the Gold - voting - members??  Making the number too hign just makes it virtually impossible for members to request an AGM - given as it has to be ONE document signed by the membership calling for the meeting.  How the hell do you get the same document to - say - 200 members to be signed, unless you set up a stand at a BIG show!


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (11 December 2018)

I got an email too, but nothing in it, completely blank (yes I double checked on my tablet too) just the subject that said agm and date.
Can anyone copy to here please?


----------



## JanetGeorge (11 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			I got an email too, but nothing in it, completely blank (yes I double checked on my tablet too) just the subject that said agm and date.
Can anyone copy to here please?
		
Click to expand...

I think it was the same as this:  http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/p...il&utm_term=0_ce97b82f97-49d192a8c3-208449535


----------



## PAK (11 December 2018)

catkin said:



			I'm just a member. I had an e-mail this afternoon.
		
Click to expand...

"Just a member" is what the BHS used to be all about. It was a grass roots (pun intended) organisation, well established locally, with a minimal regional and national hierarchy. The previous CEO who "left suddenly" started this kingdom building pattern with the new HQ and the current CEO, who leapt into the gap from the Chair, has galloped in the same direction by way of China!


----------



## PAK (11 December 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			I think it was the same as this:  http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/p...il&utm_term=0_ce97b82f97-49d192a8c3-208449535

Click to expand...

Here you go -
*General Meeting - 5 January 2019*



Dear Member,

The British Horse Society is a growing and evolving organisation. The Societyâ€™s membership, and also the public, expects The British Horse Society to demonstrate that they are a modern and forward thinking organisation that exists to fulfil the charityâ€™s purpose.

In order to fulfil these expectations, and also to ensure compliance with the Charity Governance Code, the Board of Trustees is proposing changes to the Societyâ€™s constitution. These proposed changes focus on three key areas; the way in which Trustees join the Board, the way in which the Chair is appointed and the number of members required to call a General Meeting.

The effective governance of The British Horse Society is reliant upon all Trustees having the appropriate skills and knowledge, not only of the charity, but also the wider environment in which the Society operates. It is essential for the Board to stay informed and responsive and to navigate the complex and fast-paced challenges facing charities.

The suggested proposed changes to the Constitution demonstrate that the British Horse Society is addressing the requirements for Trustee recruitment, which will ensure the ongoing effective governance of the Society.

*Resources & Downloads*

The links below will take you to documents which will explain more about the proposed changes to the constitution and how you can vote at the forthcoming General Meeting.

FAQs â€“ proposed changes to The British Horse Society Constitution

Notice of General Meeting and Proxy voting form

Proposed changes to the Constitution in full

The current Constitution of The British Horse Society
The documents are also available to download via our website.
*Further information on charity governance*

http://www.uksport.gov.uk/resources/governance-code

https://www.charitygovernancecode.org/en

 
If you would like to attend the General Meeting or have any further queries please email generalmeeting@bhs.org.uk or call 02476 840500.

Kind regards,
The British Horse Society

*Tel: 02476 840500
Email: generalmeeting@bhs.org.uk
Address: *Abbey Park, Stareton, Kenilworth, Warwickshire, CV8 2XZ


----------



## Reacher (11 December 2018)

Karen 71 said:



			Yes I have one now. I did ask a question earlier today about whether we should send our proxy form in two directions as I don't trust anyone in BHS any more if they see an against vote.
		
Click to expand...

I emailed scanned proxy gorm to bhs and said I was sending it to my proxy also. I received confirmation email that they had registered my vote to my named proxy.


----------



## PAK (11 December 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Lol, and while they are talking about membership, as I understand it, only Gold Members CAN vote.  SO, is the membership number claimed TOTAL membership - or just the Gold - voting - members??  Making the number too hign just makes it virtually impossible for members to request an AGM - given as it has to be ONE document signed by the membership calling for the meeting.  How the hell do you get the same document to - say - 200 members to be signed, unless you set up a stand at a BIG show!
		
Click to expand...

Yes it will almost impossible to trigger an EGM. And the requirement for AGMs was removed in 2009.


----------



## PAK (11 December 2018)

The Xmas Furry said:



			I got an email too, but nothing in it, completely blank (yes I double checked on my tablet too) just the subject that said agm and date.
Can anyone copy to here please?
		
Click to expand...

*General Meeting - 5 January 2019*



Dear Member,

The British Horse Society is a growing and evolving organisation. The Societyâ€™s membership, and also the public, expects The British Horse Society to demonstrate that they are a modern and forward thinking organisation that exists to fulfil the charityâ€™s purpose.

In order to fulfil these expectations, and also to ensure compliance with the Charity Governance Code, the Board of Trustees is proposing changes to the Societyâ€™s constitution. These proposed changes focus on three key areas; the way in which Trustees join the Board, the way in which the Chair is appointed and the number of members required to call a General Meeting.

The effective governance of The British Horse Society is reliant upon all Trustees having the appropriate skills and knowledge, not only of the charity, but also the wider environment in which the Society operates. It is essential for the Board to stay informed and responsive and to navigate the complex and fast-paced challenges facing charities.

The suggested proposed changes to the Constitution demonstrate that the British Horse Society is addressing the requirements for Trustee recruitment, which will ensure the ongoing effective governance of the Society.

*Resources & Downloads*

The links below will take you to documents which will explain more about the proposed changes to the constitution and how you can vote at the forthcoming General Meeting.

FAQs â€“ proposed changes to The British Horse Society Constitution

Notice of General Meeting and Proxy voting form

Proposed changes to the Constitution in full

The current Constitution of The British Horse Society
The documents are also available to download via our website.
*Further information on charity governance*

http://www.uksport.gov.uk/resources/governance-code

https://www.charitygovernancecode.org/en

 
If you would like to attend the General Meeting or have any further queries please email generalmeeting@bhs.org.uk or call 02476 840500.

Kind regards,
The British Horse Society

*Tel: 02476 840500
Email: generalmeeting@bhs.org.uk
Address: *Abbey Park, Stareton, Kenilworth, Warwickshire, CV8 2XZ


----------



## honetpot (11 December 2018)

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/bhs-bs-meeting-jan-5-2019.770490/#post-13896129


----------



## JanetGeorge (12 December 2018)

honetpot said:



			Could anyone give me the link for information about the meeting. I have looked on the website and I can not find it.
		
Click to expand...

lol, and it's not surprising you couldn't at the time because it wasn't put up until the 4th of December - once they realised a storm was brewing and they'd better cover their collective a*se.


----------



## PAK (12 December 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			lol, and it's not surprising you couldn't at the time because it wasn't put up until the 4th of December - once they realised a storm was brewing and they'd better cover their collective a*se.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. Once the drums started beating, suddenly an email appears.


----------



## Palomino Dream (12 December 2018)

D


PAK said:



			I agree. Once the drums started beating, suddenly an email appears.
		
Click to expand...

Doesnâ€™t that demonstrate that they are listening to members and responding appropriately - even when some of the vitriol directed against them on this forum hasnâ€™t looked appropriate?


----------



## Velcrobum (12 December 2018)

Palomino Dream said:



			D

Doesnâ€™t that demonstrate that they are listening to members and responding appropriately - even when some of the vitriol directed against them on this forum hasnâ€™t looked appropriate?
		
Click to expand...

*The members should not have to make a fuss about something the board should have been far more transparent about!*


----------



## Tiddlypom (12 December 2018)

* Cage officially rattled and notice duly given that the days of the cosy little protectorate are over*

You've been rumbled.


----------



## JanetGeorge (12 December 2018)

Palomino Dream said:



			D

Doesnâ€™t that demonstrate that they are listening to members and responding appropriately - even when some of the vitriol directed against them on this forum hasnâ€™t looked appropriate?
		
Click to expand...

Believe me, I have LOTS more I could have put up here that that really WOULD appear to be vitriolic - sadly, it WOULD be justified.  They have known this thread has been running since late September - it took 6 weeks for them to realise they HAD to be more open.  I suspect that if they hadn't finally come out, there would be grounds for a Judicial Review.


----------



## PAK (12 December 2018)

Palomino Dream said:



			D

Doesnâ€™t that demonstrate that they are listening to members and responding appropriately - even when some of the vitriol directed against them on this forum hasnâ€™t looked appropriate?
		
Click to expand...

I agree with Velcrobum.


----------



## View (12 December 2018)

Well I have sent my proxy form in by email, and received confirmation that it has been assigned as requested.

Thank you to everyone for rattling cages and bringing this out into the open.


----------



## PAK (12 December 2018)

View said:



			Well I have sent my proxy form in by email, and received confirmation that it has been assigned as requested.

Thank you to everyone for rattling cages and bringing this out into the open.
		
Click to expand...

You are welcome. Sadly there's a lot more that needs the light of day & scrutiny!


----------



## PAK (12 December 2018)

Palomino Dream said:



			D

Doesnâ€™t that demonstrate that they are listening to members and responding appropriately - even when some of the vitriol directed against them on this forum hasnâ€™t looked appropriate?
		
Click to expand...

For a sample- read info in the public domain  - the Sheila Hardy vs BHS employment tribunal


----------



## honetpot (12 December 2018)

Palomino Dream said:



			D

Doesnâ€™t that demonstrate that they are listening to members and responding appropriately - even when some of the vitriol directed against them on this forum hasnâ€™t looked appropriate?
		
Click to expand...

Have you read this thread from the start?

They didn't fully inform members of the vote, it was about 2inches in British Horse, which would cost about Â£150 in advertising space. ( this has just given me an idea)
There was no information on the website, until the 4/10 
There was no information on the BHS facebook page.
So when people finally realised the very small envelope hidden between the rest of the mailshot that was actually important, what information was given to inform people about the reason for the changes? None.
FAQ's have now been put on the website, on the 11/12. They raise more questions than they answer.

  Most of the BHS's income comes from their members, whether you support how it is run or not, members should be kept fully informed of proposed changes, not through a last minute mailing, for a vote after Christmas. The fact this actually complies with a previous change is actually disgraceful, so apart from not emailing people where they have email addresses on file they have not broke their rules.
  So everyone ring and give them your email address, so they haven't got that excuse.

  There is no longer a AGM, so being able to call an EGM is the only way members will get the opportunity to voice their opinions. This is going to be made more difficult to call, in fact it does not even seem clear cut how many members will be need. Will it be a % of voting members, or the total membership.

This whole fiasco shows a lack of respect for members who provide most of the societies income and in turn employees salaries. The membership is what makes up the society and the intension seems to be to further disenfranchise it.


----------



## GHamlet75 (12 December 2018)

Very well said Honetpot

To add to this
1. No one knows the true total membership figure. Various numbers are banded around but with an unreliable membership database (which has cost the British Horse Society over Â£1million so far and with rumours it will cost over Â£1million to fix), how will members ever know how many votes they need? They are making this an impossible task to ever call an EGM. As the 'live' membership figure is never released in a timely manner, even if we think we have enough votes, you can be sure that the BHS will 'find' additional membership figures to make the % unattainable. 
2. These days the biggest cost with any membership magazine is postage. By having the announcement intentionally as an insert would have added additional weight to the mailing (instead of using the already budgeted for magazine pages). Then of course you have the additional print costs of the insert and where applicable design costs too. If this was just for one person the cost would be minimal. However when you're posting out to approx 100,000 members, the additional cost will be significantly more than Â£150. This yet again demonstrates the charity's inability to use members' donations wisely. When is the BHS going to start spending our donations and income from our membership on horse welfare?


----------



## GHamlet75 (12 December 2018)

Honetpot your post says last edited today at 7.39pm. Has your post been modified by H&H?


----------



## honetpot (12 December 2018)

GHamlet75 said:



			Honetpot your post says last edited today at 7.39pm. Has your post been modified by H&H?
		
Click to expand...

I probably checked my spelling, unfortunately I speak better than I write.


----------



## PAK (13 December 2018)

GHamlet75 said:



			Very well said Honetpot

To add to this
1. No one knows the true total membership figure. Various numbers are banded around but with an unreliable membership database (which has cost the British Horse Society over Â£1million so far and with rumours it will cost over Â£1million to fix), how will members ever know how many votes they need? They are making this an impossible task to ever call an EGM. As the 'live' membership figure is never released in a timely manner, even if we think we have enough votes, you can be sure that the BHS will 'find' additional membership figures to make the % unattainable.
2. These days the biggest cost with any membership magazine is postage. By having the announcement intentionally as an insert would have added additional weight to the mailing (instead of using the already budgeted for magazine pages). Then of course you have the additional print costs of the insert and where applicable design costs too. If this was just for one person the cost would be minimal. However when you're posting out to approx 100,000 members, the additional cost will be significantly more than Â£150. This yet again demonstrates the charity's inability to use members' donations wisely. When is the BHS going to start spending our donations and income from our membership on horse welfare?
		
Click to expand...

That is the central question. And one the Charities Commission is most interested in! We need to ask it in a concerted voice. I filed a complaint in Scotland yesterday. Someone needs to take up this effort for England and Wales & Northern Ireland. And Ireland too.


----------



## PAK (13 December 2018)

As they say, it's "throwback thursday". Here's a letter I wrote in 2014 on behalf of the BHS Ayrshire Committee. Sound familiar! And in response to this letter, I have a very interesting tape & transcript of the voice mail I received. The "caller" thought to have ended the call but it was still live & recorded onto my answering machine. Reported to the Chair and nothing happened!


----------



## honetpot (13 December 2018)

Oh dear.
Itâ€™s clear from this that the change in the â€˜ business modelâ€™ has been going on for a long time.
If itâ€™s to be a business and we members are to be customers, with no say in the running of the BHS, the product is something we no longer have to buy.
If you want welfare there are other charities and some will also provide insurance.
If you want training there are other providers in the market.
There USP has gone, the only thing that was left was the fact that groups of like minded people, often with great experience could work together towards a common cause. This part seems to be being systematically dismantled.
The central office was the thing that was supposed to hold the strands together, and provide support, now in appears just to want the money but and be left to spend it as it sees fit. What resources it has have not been used to communicate with members in an effective informative even handed way.
We will have no say.
 So vote against the changes and see if we can  get our voices heard. Use it or lose.


----------



## PAK (13 December 2018)

honetpot said:



			Oh dear.
Itâ€™s clear from this that the change in the â€˜ business modelâ€™ has been going on for a long time.
If itâ€™s to be a business and we members are to be customers, with no say in the running of the BHS, the product is something we no longer have to buy.
If you want welfare there are other charities and some will also provide insurance.
If you want training there are other providers in the market.
There USP has gone, the only thing that was left was the fact that groups of like minded people, often with great experience could work together towards a common cause. This part seems to be being systematically dismantled.
The central office was the thing that was supposed to hold the strands together, and provide support, now in appears just to want the money but and be left to spend it as it sees fit. What resources it has have not been used to communicate with members in an effective informative even handed way.
We will have no say.
So vote against the changes and see if we can  get our voices heard. Use it or lose.
		
Click to expand...

Well said. If we can not turn this around now, I will not be continuing as a member as I have done for more than 30 years.


----------



## Renvers (13 December 2018)

I stopped being a BHS member a couple of years ago, I always supposed it was a good organisation with commendable aims. I am shocked to hear what has been happening behind the scenes and how good, hard working staff have been treated.

Even though I won't be there voting with you, I wish you all success in voicing the concerns of members and getting things back on track 

It sounds like the types of shareholder revolts that make the headlines in the city!


----------



## PAK (14 December 2018)

Renvers said:



			I stopped being a BHS member a couple of years ago, I always supposed it was a good organisation with commendable aims. I am shocked to hear what has been happening behind the scenes and how good, hard working staff have been treated.

Even though I won't be there voting with you, I wish you all success in voicing the concerns of members and getting things back on track

It sounds like the types of shareholder revolts that make the headlines in the city!
		
Click to expand...

 Thank you. In my opinion, you are spot on. It is a shareholder revolt. Let's find a way to get some media attention! H&H might be coming to the meeting.


----------



## Charliew00 (14 December 2018)

To save me trawling through this thread could someone please post Duncan Snook's email address.
 I'm not sure if anyone in the Isle of Man received the email as I certainly didn't. BHS IOM is redundant!


----------



## PAK (14 December 2018)

Charliew00 said:



			To save me trawling through this thread could someone please post Duncan Snook's email address.
I'm not sure if anyone in the Isle of Man received the email as I certainly didn't. BHS IOM is redundant!
		
Click to expand...

generalmeeting@bhs.org.uk


----------



## honetpot (17 December 2018)

Well I am amazed, another email from the BHS actually asking us to vote and a link to request a new voting form. Which is great.
Itâ€™s just unfortunate itâ€™s so late and unfortunately does not explain the issues behind the need for the changes, if there are any.


----------



## Gingerwitch (18 December 2018)

hich has cost the British Horse Society over Â£1million so far and with rumours it will cost over Â£1million to fix), how will members ever know how many votes they need? They are making this an impossible task to ever call an EGM. As the 'live' membership figure is never released in a timely manner, even if we think we have enough votes, you can be sure that the BHS will 'find' additional membership figures to make the % unattainable. 
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...ety-c-k-up.767675/page-14#l9OTgDkZDQGkp6L1.99 

Well if we all cancel our membership for 1 year starting 1st Jan 2019 - then i am sure we will soon know how many members they have and if they are prepared to listen to us


----------



## PAK (18 December 2018)

Interesting. I have not received another email.


----------



## JanetGeorge (18 December 2018)

honetpot said:



			Well I am amazed, another email from the BHS actually asking us to vote and a link to request a new voting form. Which is great.
Itâ€™s just unfortunate itâ€™s so late and unfortunately does not explain the issues behind the need for the changes, if there are any.
		
Click to expand...

lol, I guess they've realized the natives are rising - and that there are dangerous questions being asked that COULD attract the attention of the Charity Commissioners - so there is a delayed attempt to CYA.


----------



## PAK (18 December 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			lol, I guess they've realized the natives are rising - and that there are dangerous questions being asked that COULD attract the attention of the Charity Commissioners - so there is a delayed attempt to CYA.
		
Click to expand...

I have not received another email. Maybe Scotland fell off the list - again.


----------



## JanetGeorge (18 December 2018)

PAK said:



			I have not received another email. Maybe Scotland fell off the list - again.
		
Click to expand...

lol, you know you Scots are always moaning about something!  And you know the IT is always breaking down.  Someone in HO would have to THINK in a productive manner.


----------



## ester (18 December 2018)

no extra email here either.


----------



## PAK (18 December 2018)

Wonder what's up.


----------



## JanetGeorge (18 December 2018)

Will all members who share the concern shown here, please read this:  https://assets.publishing.service.g...loads/attachment_data/file/284722/rs7text.pdf

It may enlighten us as to the best way to get the Charity Commissioners on the case.


----------



## PAK (18 December 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			Will all members who share the concern shown here, please read this:  https://assets.publishing.service.g...loads/attachment_data/file/284722/rs7text.pdf

It may enlighten us as to the best way to get the Charity Commissioners on the case.
		
Click to expand...




JanetGeorge said:



			Will all members who share the concern shown here, please read this:  https://assets.publishing.service.g...loads/attachment_data/file/284722/rs7text.pdf

It may enlighten us as to the best way to get the Charity Commissioners on the case.
		
Click to expand...

Will do. I have already filed with OSCR (Scotland). I know - always moaning LOL


----------



## sjb10 (18 December 2018)

Just checked and I have received another email - season's greeting from the british horse society. Will read later, must complete a nomination form


----------



## fidleyspromise (18 December 2018)

PAK said:



			I have not received another email. Maybe Scotland fell off the list - again.
		
Click to expand...

Scottish member here and I got the second email.


----------



## PAK (18 December 2018)

For those of you that received the email, BHS HQ has done it again. Office closure = Friday 20 Dec. You couldn't make this up!


----------



## Karen 71 (19 December 2018)

Think they've had the wind put up them, never had so many emails in such a short space of time, yet a committee member I know said their regional manager had told them that she was unable to publicise their events regularly via email for their region because HQ said it did not want membership mailed all the time!! Strikes me forked tongue comes to mind. Ridiculous isn't it


----------



## Blazingsaddles (19 December 2018)

ester said:



			no extra email here either.
		
Click to expand...

Mine was hiding in Junk box!


----------



## ester (19 December 2018)

Check those daily


----------



## PAK (19 December 2018)

Karen 71 said:



			Think they've had the wind put up them, never had so many emails in such a short space of time, yet a committee member I know said their regional manager had told them that she was unable to publicise their events regularly via email for their region because HQ said it did not want membership mailed all the time!! Strikes me forked tongue comes to mind. Ridiculous isn't it
		
Click to expand...

Yes -quite ridiculous.


----------



## PAK (20 December 2018)

*I would like all H&H readers to know that H&H has not confirmed they will attend the meeting on 5 Jan. *


----------



## D66 (20 December 2018)

PAK said:



*I would like all H&H readers to know that H&H has not confirmed they will attend the meeting on 5 Jan. *

Click to expand...

Have they said why?


----------



## PAK (20 December 2018)

D66 said:



			Have they said why?
		
Click to expand...

no


----------



## JanetGeorge (20 December 2018)

I hope we have all seen the letter to Members in H&H today - obviously they are wetting themselves over the allegation that they were keeping the meeting a secret.


----------



## PAK (20 December 2018)

Thanks for posting that!


----------



## JanetGeorge (20 December 2018)

PAK said:



			Thanks for posting that!
		
Click to expand...

ALMOST my pleasure, lol.  Now if they'd done this a couple of weeks ago I would have had a little respect.  But it's too late for most Members - unless they can get TO the meeting on the 5th.


----------



## PAK (20 December 2018)

Yes, hope the room is big enough!


----------



## GHamlet75 (21 December 2018)

Smart move by the British Horse Society. This makes it look like it's a charity that values its members and listens to them. 

However it's further evidence of wasting charity money. All they had to do was publish this properly in the pages of British Horse which goes to every member- as previously stated this would not have cost them any more money because it's already budgeted for. Instead not only have they wasted money by producing the insert that no one conveniently saw, they have now paid at least Â£3,524 to advertise this (https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/archives/advertising-rates-37182). I notice they aren't advertising this online which would have reached a far greater audience.

I agree with JanetGeorge  - far too little, too late BHS.


----------



## GHamlet75 (21 December 2018)

PS talking of reaching a greater audience - we've just passed 60,000 views! Thank you to everyone who continues to follow, share and contribute to this thread and a special thank you once again to JanetGeorge for starting this.


----------



## Velcrobum (21 December 2018)

Have not had my H&H yet and certainly have not had an email from BHS fortunately I am attending the meeting.


----------



## rabatsa (21 December 2018)

Well my proxy forms have arrived at the office as they have been signed for.


----------



## JanetGeorge (21 December 2018)

And the BHS had another mention in H&H this week - thanks to Pammy Hutton FBHS.  Seems the Fellows are not too amused by changes to the education system either - see Lost Language.


----------



## PAK (23 December 2018)

fidleyspromise said:



			Scottish member here and I got the second email.
		
Click to expand...

I still have not received it.


----------



## PAK (24 December 2018)

My Christmas wish - that the members of the BHS get back in the saddle and take up the reins of the BHS.


----------



## GHamlet75 (24 December 2018)

Totally agree! Merry Christmas everyone


----------



## PAK (27 December 2018)

I have heard that staff are being told to vote. 
If true, that's unethical at best


----------



## GHamlet75 (27 December 2018)

This does not surprise me. Each employee is a member so the CE will be relying on these votes to get the proposed changes passed. Therefore please keep spreading the word everyone. The British Horse Society needs genuine votes to decide it's future


----------



## teapot (27 December 2018)

JanetGeorge said:



			And the BHS had another mention in H&H this week - thanks to Pammy Hutton FBHS.  Seems the Fellows are not too amused by changes to the education system either - see Lost Language.

View attachment 28291

Click to expand...

I work in the industry and have not heard one person refer to level x anything, they're still referred to as the stage exams or the original qualification name. I deal with two big where to train centres reguluarly, including BHSIs and FBHS, and not one person has used the word level - bit of careful editing there methinks. Also Pammy Hutton was very pro the changes when they first came out.

I've had two emails regarding the AGM!


----------



## JanetGeorge (29 December 2018)

teapot said:



			Also Pammy Hutton was very pro the changes when they first came out.
		
Click to expand...

She certainly isn't now - having had more time to consider it.  And a lot of BHS Instructors are not keen to go public with any anti-BHS views - for obvious reasons.


----------



## Chica (30 December 2018)

I don't trust this organisation any more . I have heard too much and now think it is bad to the core . Yes I know there are excellent staff at the coal face doing some brilliant work for horses and owners but the leadership appears to be  ineffective and inappropriate . I have been reading all sorts about staff bullying and high numbers of pay offs and sackings and this is well known to be  clear signs of a sick workplace . These types of environments bread mistrust and very poor outputs and outcomes . Add this to poor decisions ( in my view)  regarding spending of the charities funds eg horse box and horse puppet thing and of course the crazy cost of pay offs and failed tribunals , then you have a huge amount of wasted charitable funds and staff who will be generally underperforming  . I work in Local  Authority Childrens Services and have done for 27 years it is a very stressful and risky environment due to the nature of the work . Good leadership is essential and I have seen both the very  good and the very bad. The work is totally different and much more manageable and achievable under inspiring, strong, focused and knowledgable leadership . BHS need leadership fit for purpose now or it will fold as I for one have decided not to renew my membership unless I can see a significant change at the top . I mean not just one but several replacements with people who understand inspirational and outcomes based leadership , people who really care about horses owners and members . It is clear that for what ever reason thier has been no effective intervention from the board and no challenge from any of the senior staff ( and I understand it is a very top heavy organisation with lots of bosses all payed very well !) . I really hope my vote does count but like many others I also doubt this . Very sad state of affairs .


----------



## JanetGeorge (1 January 2019)

Chica said:



			I don't trust this organisation any more . I have heard too much and now think it is bad to the core . Yes I know there are excellent staff at the coal face doing some brilliant work for horses and owners but the leadership appears to be  ineffective and inappropriate . I have been reading all sorts about staff bullying and high numbers of pay offs and sackings and this is well known to be  clear signs of a sick workplace . These types of environments bread mistrust and very poor outputs and outcomes . Add this to poor decisions ( in my view)  regarding spending of the charities funds eg horse box and horse puppet thing and of course the crazy cost of pay offs and failed tribunals , then you have a huge amount of wasted charitable funds and staff who will be generally underperforming  . I work in Local  Authority Childrens Services and have done for 27 years it is a very stressful and risky environment due to the nature of the work . Good leadership is essential and I have seen both the very  good and the very bad. The work is totally different and much more manageable and achievable under inspiring, strong, focused and knowledgable leadership . BHS need leadership fit for purpose now or it will fold as I for one have decided not to renew my membership unless I can see a significant change at the top . I mean not just one but several replacements with people who understand inspirational and outcomes based leadership , people who really care about horses owners and members . It is clear that for what ever reason thier has been no effective intervention from the board and no challenge from any of the senior staff ( and I understand it is a very top heavy organisation with lots of bosses all payed very well !) . I really hope my vote does count but like many others I also doubt this . Very sad state of affairs .
		
Click to expand...

So well said that it needs bringing to the top of the pile.  The senior staff don't intervene because they want to keep their jobs - or get promoted further.  I hope the meeting venue proves to be inadequate for the numbers!


----------



## honetpot (1 January 2019)

I the last few weeks I have done a fair bit of research on the BHS from information freely available on the internet, web sites, companies house, minutes of meetings, AGM etc. This was just to work out what was going on.

 I am a great thinker while I muck out. 
Last night on the forum, about 01.00 in the morning the BHS was running an ad on here for membership, top and side. No idea what that costs, but the main thrust of the advert was to join because of the membership benefits.
The charitable work of the BHS was hardly mentioned, bottom line.

They lost about Â£600,000 on last years accounts and the only way they can cover this is new members, that where they get most of there income from. Membership targets not only raise money but they are quantifiable, they are always going on how they have more members, if you are building a CV, it looks good. 
  What they are not good at is lot more difficult to quantify. Poor management, losing the confidence of members, poor choices on how the money is spent. The main thing I think there is less focus on the charitable work of the society, which is how it gained its charitable status with all its tax benefits. If it was a normal business they would be up .....creek, hence China. Business see China as an untapped cash cow.

 For what ever reason the management has withdrawn to a point where they see they are in the business of raising money from membership, and seem to have no other focus. I would imagine anyone who has a different point of view will not fit. Their argument is we have to raise money to spend money, but when they increase bridleways groups insurance to clear ROW,s which is for everyone's benefit, and a charitable aim. It makes you think, what are their priorities?

So for anyone reading this and thinks its a storm in a teacup. Yes, it may seem a fuss about nothing, but they are spending money you gave them on things that really do not promote education and welfare. They are not enabling volunteers to help others and providing support and managing to marginalise anyone who does not tow the line, so they resign.

  So if you are a member just for the insurance, some services of the BHS are available on your house insurance, how do you want your money spent and how do you want to be treated? If its going to be like the RAC and just a service, you want more for your money. If you want to improve horse welfare, do you want more of that? 

So Happy New Year, and lets hope we get a new broom for 2019, to sweep out the corners and not just a coat of shiny very expensive red paint,


----------



## honetpot (1 January 2019)

So I asked for an agenda for the EGM. Its seems this is it.

Thank you for confirming your attendance at the general meeting.

All the information is contained within the attachment or in the following link to the BHS website.

https://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/press-centre/news/2018/december/announcement-of-general-meeting

*The formal general meeting has one proposal regarding the constitution â€“ and will be followed by the annual members meeting.*

Cart before horse?


----------



## PAK (3 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			So I asked for an agenda for the EGM. Its seems this is it.

Thank you for confirming your attendance at the general meeting.

All the information is contained within the attachment or in the following link to the BHS website.

https://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/press-centre/news/2018/december/announcement-of-general-meeting

*The formal general meeting has one proposal regarding the constitution â€“ and will be followed by the annual members meeting.*

Cart before horse?
		
Click to expand...

When did this become "the annual members meeting"?


----------



## PAK (3 January 2019)

Interesting. I have a notification set on this forum to let me know when someone has added to the thread. It is now operating with a significant delay!


----------



## PAK (3 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			I the last few weeks I have done a fair bit of research on the BHS from information freely available on the internet, web sites, companies house, minutes of meetings, AGM etc. This was just to work out what was going on.

I am a great thinker while I muck out.
Last night on the forum, about 01.00 in the morning the BHS was running an ad on here for membership, top and side. No idea what that costs, but the main thrust of the advert was to join because of the membership benefits.
The charitable work of the BHS was hardly mentioned, bottom line.

They lost about Â£600,000 on last years accounts and the only way they can cover this is new members, that where they get most of there income from. Membership targets not only raise money but they are quantifiable, they are always going on how they have more members, if you are building a CV, it looks good.
  What they are not good at is lot more difficult to quantify. Poor management, losing the confidence of members, poor choices on how the money is spent. The main thing I think there is less focus on the charitable work of the society, which is how it gained its charitable status with all its tax benefits. If it was a normal business they would be up .....creek, hence China. Business see China as an untapped cash cow.

For what ever reason the management has withdrawn to a point where they see they are in the business of raising money from membership, and seem to have no other focus. I would imagine anyone who has a different point of view will not fit. Their argument is we have to raise money to spend money, but when they increase bridleways groups insurance to clear ROW,s which is for everyone's benefit, and a charitable aim. It makes you think, what are their priorities?

So for anyone reading this and thinks its a storm in a teacup. Yes, it may seem a fuss about nothing, but they are spending money you gave them on things that really do not promote education and welfare. They are not enabling volunteers to help others and providing support and managing to marginalise anyone who does not tow the line, so they resign.

  So if you are a member just for the insurance, some services of the BHS are available on your house insurance, how do you want your money spent and how do you want to be treated? If its going to be like the RAC and just a service, you want more for your money. If you want to improve horse welfare, do you want more of that?

So Happy New Year, and lets hope we get a new broom for 2019, to sweep out the corners and not just a coat of shiny very expensive red paint,
		
Click to expand...

Sorry - the notification alert I had set on this  thread seems to have developed a significant delay.  Well said, honetpt. I agree. This is much more than a tempest in tea. Members are taking over the reins.


----------



## PAK (3 January 2019)

GHamlet75 said:



			This does not surprise me. Each employee is a member so the CE will be relying on these votes to get the proposed changes passed. Therefore please keep spreading the word everyone. The British Horse Society needs genuine votes to decide it's future
		
Click to expand...

Yes, every employee may be a member but the membership fee is paid for by the organisation. As such, these votes should not be counted as valid. Keep your eyes and ears open members!


----------



## JanetGeorge (4 January 2019)

PAK said:



			Yes, every employee may be a member but the membership fee is paid for by the organisation. As such, these votes should not be counted as valid. Keep your eyes and ears open members!
		
Click to expand...

Is that correct. PAK?  Certainly wasn't the case in my day.  And it damn well shouldn't be now!!  Tomorrow is the day - let's hope there is a good turnout.


----------



## PAK (4 January 2019)

Yes that is the case. Unethical that they are being pressured to vote; possibly illegal.


----------



## GHamlet75 (4 January 2019)

Wishing all of us good luck for tomorrow's meeting. Regardless of what happens - thanks to those that have taken the time to vote by proxy or in person. 

To quote Thurgood Marshall: _Where you see wrong or inequality or injustice, speak out, because this is your country. This is your democracy. Make it. Protect it. Pass it on._


----------



## PAK (4 January 2019)

GHamlet75 said:



			Wishing all of us good luck for tomorrow's meeting. Regardless of what happens - thanks to those that have taken the time to vote by proxy or in person.

To quote Thurgood Marshall: _Where you see wrong or inequality or injustice, speak out, because this is your country. This is your democracy. Make it. Protect it. Pass it on._

Click to expand...

Well said & great quote.


----------



## Chica (4 January 2019)

Off to the meeting in the morning . Can't wait to hear the board taking responsibility for the catalogue of neglect , wasteful  and outdated management and dodgey HR processes . I wonder if they will try to fool us with well prepared spin or if they  will actually listen .  It will be very interesting . If nothing else I get to make my vote in person .  Look forward to seeing a few of you there .


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

Good morning Chica! Today is the day. So good that you are going to be there. I can not be there sadly. Would like to have meet so many people I have "met" here. Raise your voice. My voice and my vote will be carried by my proxy and others. We must save our BHS. The Chair, Board, and CEO have shown us their true colours for long enough. Thankfully BHS has been strong enough not to perish all together. Vote of no confidence! Act now before the Charities Commission does and the "catalog" hits the press.


----------



## onemoretime (5 January 2019)

Chica said:



			Off to the meeting in the morning . Can't wait to hear the board taking responsibility for the catalogue of neglect , wasteful  and outdated management and dodgey HR processes . I wonder if they will try to fool us with well prepared spin or if they  will actually listen .  It will be very interesting . If nothing else I get to make my vote in person .  Look forward to seeing a few of you there .
		
Click to expand...

  Do let us know how it goes Chica I wish I could get up there.


----------



## onemoretime (5 January 2019)

PAK said:



			Good morning Chica! Today is the day. So good that you are going to be there. I can not be there sadly. Would like to have meet so many people I have "met" here. Raise your voice. My voice and my vote will be carried by my proxy and others. We must save our BHS. The Chair, Board, and CEO have shown us their true colours for long enough. Thankfully BHS has been strong enough not to perish all together. Vote of no confidence! Act now before the Charities Commission does and the "catalog" hits the press.
		
Click to expand...

  Has anyone contacted the Charity Commissions?


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

onemoretime said:



			Has anyone contacted the Charity Commissions?
		
Click to expand...

Yes. It is  with a case officer.


----------



## Velcrobum (5 January 2019)

Just back from the meeting and there was a curve ball thrown by a former board member. He called for a vote in the room to adjourn the meeting that would allow the "big" vote to go ahead. This was so the trustees could have the chance to reformulate the changes into separate parts as it was pointed out that some of the changes everyone agreed with but others were not. This was voted via a ballot and carried. This means there will be a new vote held in the future when everybody gets a chance to vote without the deadlines imposed on the original vote by Christmas and New Year. Now the bombshell!! at the start of the meeting a document calling for an EGM was handed in. It is a vote of no confidence and has to be held within 21 days so that has to happen first before changes to the constitution can be considered. The meeting was filmed and recorded so it is available to the wider membership if interested.


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

That sounds excellent! How can I get the film?


----------



## onemoretime (5 January 2019)

PAK said:



			Yes. It is  with a case officer.
		
Click to expand...

Good, many thanks for replying Chica.  Hope the meeting went well.


----------



## honetpot (5 January 2019)

Hi just back.
Edited highlights.
The meeting for the vote was adjourned. There was a secret ballot and the feeling in the room was there needed to more clarification by The Trust Board, and there were too many issues coved in the changes. Some things may have been changed since it was first proposed and something's thought to have been agreed were not included in the changes. I know muddled.
There was a call for an EGM at the start of the meeting, so that will now go forward. Although there were only 12 signatures needed there was a lot of support in the room for this.
We then had a presentation of the strategic plan, which raised even more questions from the floor.
It ended because we ran out of time.
I did not take notes but I will try and write some thoughts later when its still fresh in my mind.


----------



## onemoretime (5 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			Just back from the meeting and there was a curve ball thrown by a former board member. He called for a vote in the room to adjourn the meeting that would allow the "big" vote to go ahead. This was so the trustees could have the chance to reformulate the changes into separate parts as it was pointed out that some of the changes everyone agreed with but others were not. This was voted via a ballot and carried. This means there will be a new vote held in the future when everybody gets a chance to vote without the deadlines imposed on the original vote by Christmas and New Year. Now the bombshell!! at the start of the meeting a document calling for an EGM was handed in. It is a vote of no confidence and has to be held within 21 days so that has to happen first before changes to the constitution can be considered. The meeting was filmed and recorded so it is available to the wider membership if interested.
		
Click to expand...

Well that sounds promising at least!


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

Thank you for the news. I had a short message but am awaiting a longer call. Look forward to your notes.
A secret ballot? What permitted that?


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

onemoretime said:



			Well that sounds promising at least!
		
Click to expand...

How can one get the film?


----------



## Velcrobum (5 January 2019)

I should also say that there were many ex trustees in the room which was standing room only and many valid criticisms were made. I hope the trustees takes them all on board and modifies the proposals into seperate portable sections. Apparently the current constitution does not allow meeting notices to be published in the magazine and this is one of the things they want to change. It was pointed out that the information being given to the floor today was considerably more detailed than the information in that small white unlabeled envelope that many put in the recycling!!!!!


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			I should also say that there were many ex trustees in the room which was standing room only and many valid criticisms were made. I hope the trustees takes them all on board and modifies the proposals into seperate portable sections. Apparently the current constitution does not allow meeting notices to be published in the magazine and this is one of the things they want to change. It was pointed out that the information being given to the floor today was considerably more detailed than the information in that small white unlabeled envelope that many put in the recycling!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for adding the detail. This sounds like it was on the right track and began to get the issues in the open.


----------



## Velcrobum (5 January 2019)

PAK said:



			Thank you for the news. I had a short message but am awaiting a longer call. Look forward to your notes.
A secret ballot? What permitted that?
		
Click to expand...

A part of the constitution/articles, there was a scurrying behind the scenes to see if the motion was valid and someone had done their homework and it was. It could have been show of hands or poll. Poll was chosen initially with name and signature which was roundly rejected by the floor. We then lined up our names were checked on the sign in list to prove we were eligible to vote and we got a hastily prepared ballot paper. There was a independent vote counter who had been brought in specifically.


----------



## Velcrobum (5 January 2019)

PAK said:



			How can one get the film?
		
Click to expand...

I assume it will be made available on BHS website soon!!


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			A part of the constitution/articles, there was a scurrying behind the scenes to see if the motion was valid and someone had done their homework and it was. It could have been show of hands or poll. Poll was chosen initially with name and signature which was roundly rejected by the floor. We then lined up our names were checked on the sign in list to prove we were eligible to vote and we got a hastily prepared ballot paper. There was a independent vote counter who had been brought in specifically.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation. So they came prepared to have the ballot to not take vote as originally communicated in the wee notice?


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			I assume it will be made available on BHS website soon!!
		
Click to expand...

Really?


----------



## Chica (5 January 2019)

It was a very interesting meeting . We were informed early in the debate that even if they assumed all in the room voted against the proposals they already had enough  positive votes to carry forward the proposals . Which made me feel a little defeated but then the curve ball with the motion to vote  on an adjournment to allow the board to work on the various elements and to actually separate the issues .  Great, the vote was in favour of adjournment so the board have not succeeded in getting the changes through without time for full scrutiny by members. There was a lot of feeling in the room with good debate and challenge.  It was my interpretation that board and CEO  were very negative about social media and made several comments about the damage caused by negative and inflammatory Social media conversations  suggesting they were  inaccurate and misleading . So I guess this is US . Still it confirms that they are following us.  I was so pleased I was there and had my say .


----------



## honetpot (5 January 2019)

PAK said:



			Thanks for the explanation. So they came prepared to have the ballot to not take vote as originally communicated in the wee notice?
		
Click to expand...

No it was off the cuff.
The resolution was to adjourn the meeting, it was going to be voted on a show of hands but as some member voting were also employees  of the BHS it was put forward they would not be able to vote freely.
So they scuttled off to print voting papers, which, wait for it you had to put your name on and sign! This was objected to, so I suggested as we had a list of members present, like at a polling station, you name was ticked off the list, you were handed your polling slip, and put it in the box. Job done.
  You could not make it up.

I am surprised that as the 'biggest equine charity' in the country, there was not someone from H&H there, or perhaps they were?
This really is big equestrian news, at a slack news time.


----------



## JanetGeorge (5 January 2019)

Well that is a very good start!  Naughty social media - I'd guess my name is MUD right now, lol.  What they appear to be too stupid to realise that social media is a very inexpensive way to spread the GOOD news and get support for the IMPORTANT things.  (But it will also get you right up the behind if you deserve it.)


----------



## honetpot (5 January 2019)

I am still not sure it is ethical for employees of the BHS, who are also members, they have their membership paid should be allowed to vote, if they have been paid to attend the meeting as part of their job, unless its a secret ballot at all times. Its smacks of gerrymandering.
  Most of us who went to vote against will have travelled a long distance and claim no exs, so what ever The Board/ BHS head office wants to get through they will always have an advantage of local employee votes.

 The whole thing was very badly run, unlike any AGM I have ever been to. 
The Treasurer usually talks though the accounts, he left midway, so he was not there to ask questions on how Â£1.4m was spent on IT.
Why the salaries bill is so huge?
Why the marketing budget is huge?


I think they thought their presentation would be taken at face value. I think they have been reading social media, but who ever is advising them thought the gloss of a slide presentation and a shiny materials would over awe the country bumpkins who are actually, it turns out have vast experience in a variety of fields.


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

Chica said:



			It was a very interesting meeting . We were informed early in the debate that even if they assumed all in the room voted against the proposals they already had enough  positive votes to carry forward the proposals . Which made me feel a little defeated but then the curve ball with the motion to vote  on an adjournment to allow the board to work on the various elements and to actually separate the issues .  Great, the vote was in favour of adjournment so the board have not succeeded in getting the changes through without time for full scrutiny by members. There was a lot of feeling in the room with good debate and challenge.  It was my interpretation that board and CEO  were very negative about social media and made several comments about the damage caused by negative and inflammatory Social media conversations  suggesting they were  inaccurate and misleading . So I guess this is US . Still it confirms that they are following us.  I was so pleased I was there and had my say .
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for adding this. I too am glad they did not get the changes through as they had planned and without full scrutiny and due process. As for social media - this is just the latest technology in a long line of democratic means of discussion going back beyond "phamphlets".


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			No it was off the cuff.
The resolution was to adjourn the meeting, it was going to be voted on a show of hands but as some member voting were also employees  of the BHS it was put forward they would not be able to vote freely.
So they scuttled off to print voting papers, which, wait for it you had to put your name on and sign! This was objected to, so I suggested as we had a list of members present, like at a polling station, you name was ticked off the list, you were handed your polling slip, and put it in the box. Job done.
  You could not make it up.

I am surprised that as the 'biggest equine charity' in the country, there was not someone from H&H there, or perhaps they were?
This really is big equestrian news, at a slack news time.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for this explanation. I believe that employees whose membership is paid for by the organisation should not be entitled to vote. Another one for the Charities Commission. Well done you for your suggestion. Great thinking. I contacted H&H several times. After initial contact, I had no reply to my requests for them to attend even at least 2 of them are members. I can only assume bias.


----------



## honetpot (5 January 2019)

I am also not happy that the CEO tried to make people who asked questions feel guilty, like we were children in the playground, 'this is not BHS, this is not what the BHS is'
She spoke before the vote taken which was totally in appropriate and do not know why she was allowed to speak as all the other employees only spoke when they needed to answer questions.


----------



## JanetGeorge (5 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			The whole thing was very badly run, unlike any AGM I have ever been to.
The Treasurer usually talks though the accounts, he left midway, so he was not there to ask questions on how Â£1.4m was spent on IT.
Why the salaries bill is so huge?
Why the marketing budget is huge?
		
Click to expand...

I'll bet the Treasurer ran mid-way!!

I can have a pretty good guess at the reasons.

1.  The IT bill is so big because the CE knows b'all about IT and has no interest - so left every department director to do their own thing.  So the various parts of the system don't communicate and so she's pulled in loads of consultants (and they are expensive) to sort out the mess.  Mind you, with several different mobs of consultants, it probably won't work and the IT bill will be double that next year.

2.  Partly because the Senior Management Team is too big in number - and partly because of unfair/constructive dismissals and replacement costs - not ALL those costs coming under salaries - but hell, you have to hide the legal costs somewhere.

3.  Because the CE has the weird idea that throwing money at marketing will fix it - especially if you sack the marketing people who disagree with you and your grandiose ideas.


----------



## JanetGeorge (5 January 2019)

Has the requisition for an EGM been withdrawn??   I DO hope it hasn't been!


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			I am also not happy that the CEO tried to make people who asked questions feel guilty, like we were children in the playground, 'this is not BHS, this is not what the BHS is'
She spoke before the vote taken which was totally in appropriate and do not know why she was allowed to speak as all the other employees only spoke when they needed to answer questions.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for adding this. Wasn't the Chairman in control of the meeting?


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			I'll bet the Treasurer ran mid-way!!

I can have a pretty good guess at the reasons.

1.  The IT bill is so big because the CE knows b'all about IT and has no interest - so left every department director to do their own thing.  So the various parts of the system don't communicate and so she's pulled in loads of consultants (and they are expensive) to sort out the mess.  Mind you, with several different mobs of consultants, it probably won't work and the IT bill will be double that next year.

2.  Partly because the Senior Management Team is too big in number - and partly because of unfair/constructive dismissals and replacement costs - not ALL those costs coming under salaries - but hell, you have to hide the legal costs somewhere.

3.  Because the CE has the weird idea that throwing money at marketing will fix it - especially if you sack the marketing people who disagree with you and your grandiose ideas.
		
Click to expand...




JanetGeorge said:



			I'll bet the Treasurer ran mid-way!!

I can have a pretty good guess at the reasons.

1.  The IT bill is so big because the CE knows b'all about IT and has no interest - so left every department director to do their own thing.  So the various parts of the system don't communicate and so she's pulled in loads of consultants (and they are expensive) to sort out the mess.  Mind you, with several different mobs of consultants, it probably won't work and the IT bill will be double that next year.

2.  Partly because the Senior Management Team is too big in number - and partly because of unfair/constructive dismissals and replacement costs - not ALL those costs coming under salaries - but hell, you have to hide the legal costs somewhere.

3.  Because the CE has the weird idea that throwing money at marketing will fix it - especially if you sack the marketing people who disagree with you and your grandiose ideas.
		
Click to expand...




JanetGeorge said:



			I'll bet the Treasurer ran mid-way!!

I can have a pretty good guess at the reasons.

1.  The IT bill is so big because the CE knows b'all about IT and has no interest - so left every department director to do their own thing.  So the various parts of the system don't communicate and so she's pulled in loads of consultants (and they are expensive) to sort out the mess.  Mind you, with several different mobs of consultants, it probably won't work and the IT bill will be double that next year.

2.  Partly because the Senior Management Team is too big in number - and partly because of unfair/constructive dismissals and replacement costs - not ALL those costs coming under salaries - but hell, you have to hide the legal costs somewhere.

3.  Because the CE has the weird idea that throwing money at marketing will fix it - especially if you sack the marketing people who disagree with you and your grandiose ideas.
		
Click to expand...

The treasurer was not there to take questions? Did anyone raise this point?


----------



## Chica (5 January 2019)

Yes I believe it has which is a big shame as I and a few others said they wanted to add our names to this and I think if there was any chance made available in the meeting to discuss this further then many others would probably had done the same . Unfortunately the issue was raised by me at the very end as I wanted clarification of what this meant but unfortunately the meeting was being brought to a close and I had to stand up and effectively talk over the chair to ask my question and hurriedly put my support of motion across. It was explained to me after by I assume some lovely people who raised the motion that they had withdrawn it to allow the board a chance to do the right thing . I understand this approach and respect it but I'm very disappointed as  I do not trust the board or senior leadership .


----------



## ester (5 January 2019)

Wow, it seems like an adjournement was the best resolution all round, especially if those who postal voted were doing so on minimal information compared to that which was provided at the meeting.


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			I am also not happy that the CEO tried to make people who asked questions feel guilty, like we were children in the playground, 'this is not BHS, this is not what the BHS is'
She spoke before the vote taken which was totally in appropriate and do not know why she was allowed to speak as all the other employees only spoke when they needed to answer questions.
		
Click to expand...

I wish someone had picked up on this. How can it be inappropriate for members to ask respectful questions and comments.


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

Chica said:



			Yes I believe it has which is a big shame as I and a few others said they wanted to add our names to this and I think if there was any chance made available in the meeting to discuss this further then many others would probably had done the same . Unfortunately the issue was raised by me at the very end as I wanted clarification of what this meant but unfortunately the meeting was being brought to a close and I had to stand up and effectively talk over the chair to ask my question and hurriedly put my support of motion across. It was explained to me after by I assume some lovely people who raised the motion that they had withdrawn it to allow the board a chance to do the right thing . I understand this approach and respect it but I'm very disappointed as  I do not trust the board or senior leadership .
		
Click to expand...

I am not following this clearly. I thought that the proposed changes were being taken away, broken down, revised, and proposals be submitted for vote at another time.


----------



## JanetGeorge (5 January 2019)

Chica said:



			. It was explained to me after by I assume some lovely people who raised the motion that they had withdrawn it to allow the board a chance to do the right thing . I understand this approach and respect it but I'm very disappointed as  I do not trust the board or senior leadership .
		
Click to expand...

You and many others!  Of course, the CE/Chair will be delighted - gives them a chance to get the changes through and make itnecessary to get 200 signatures!!


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			You and many others!  Of course, the CE/Chair will be delighted - gives them a chance to get the changes through and make itnecessary to get 200 signatures!!
		
Click to expand...

I thought the proposed changes would still require a vote. No?


----------



## Chica (5 January 2019)

Yes that is correct the vote on the changes to the constitution has been adjourned it is the vote of no confidence in the board which would force an EGM that has been withdrawn as far I'm aware .


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

Oh! Thanks for that clarification. Now that is a pity. So there will not be an EGM within 21 days. And the revisions and new voting timings will be determined by CE,Chair, Board.


----------



## Chica (5 January 2019)

Big shame . Particularly as I felt a deeper sense of mistrust and even less confidence in the board by the end of the meeting . Which I was not really expecting to be honest . I thought I was already at an all time low .


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			You and many others!  Of course, the CE/Chair will be delighted - gives them a chance to get the changes through and make itnecessary to get 200 signatures!!
		
Click to expand...

"Allow them to do the right thing"- if they were capable of that, we wouldn't be in this mess!


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

Chica said:



			Big shame . Particularly as I felt a deeper sense of mistrust and even less confidence in the board by the end of the meeting . Which I was not really expecting to be honest . I thought I was already at an all time low .
		
Click to expand...

Keep the faith, Chica. There's more to come.


----------



## Velcrobum (5 January 2019)

Chica said:



			Yes I believe it has which is a big shame as I and a few others said they wanted to add our names to this and I think if there was any chance made available in the meeting to discuss this further then many others would probably had done the same . Unfortunately the issue was raised by me at the very end as I wanted clarification of what this meant but unfortunately the meeting was being brought to a close and I had to stand up and effectively talk over the chair to ask my question and hurriedly put my support of motion across. It was explained to me after by I assume some lovely people who raised the motion that they had withdrawn it to allow the board a chance to do the right thing . I understand this approach and respect it but I'm very disappointed as  I do not trust the board or senior leadership .
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear that is very disappointing, I hope that the board actually takes on board the points raised by this meeting.


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

If they do, it will be a pleasant surprise. I think it is quite unlikely.


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Has the requisition for an EGM been withdrawn??   I DO hope it hasn't been!
		
Click to expand...

Seems like it was withdrawn.


----------



## honetpot (5 January 2019)

PAK said:



			The treasurer was not there to take questions? Did anyone raise this point?
		
Click to expand...

The whole thing ran like a car crash.
There was the presentation, The Strategic plan summary, which raised more questions. The CEO had some input in the this but a Broad member I think did most of the presentation
As there was no agenda for the AGM, we just kept asking questions, until the Chairman called time. I did feel a bit sorry for him because he obviously had no idea how to chair a meeting of this size. There were no conclusions or objectives raised, and no one was asked to report back on anything at the AGM for the EGM. 
As I said in another comment, about changes in the constitution, this information should have all been given out before hand, any questions asked and feedback given before people were asked to vote on changes in voting people on to the Trust Board. That this had not been done was accepted as, 'something to look at' And they wonder why people are suspicious?
 There was no detailed discussion of the budget. The bus was mentioned in passing but not directly.
  There will be another opportunity at the EGM, which I think everyone should try and make an effort to go to and raise these issues in a concise way with no wiggle room.


----------



## honetpot (5 January 2019)

PAK said:



			Seems like it was withdrawn.
		
Click to expand...

Nope, they have I think 21days, but would have to check. In fact at the end of the meeting there was more support voiced for it.


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			The whole thing ran like a car crash.
There was the presentation, The Strategic plan summary, which raised more questions. The CEO had some input in the this but a Broad member I think did most of the presentation
As there was no agenda for the AGM, we just kept asking questions, until the Chairman called time. I did feel a bit sorry for him because he obviously had no idea how to chair a meeting of this size. There were no conclusions or objectives raised, and no one was asked to report back on anything at the AGM for the EGM.
As I said in another comment, about changes in the constitution, this information should have all been given out before hand, any questions asked and feedback given before people were asked to vote on changes in voting people on to the Trust Board. That this had not been done was accepted as, 'something to look at' And they wonder why people are suspicious?
There was no detailed discussion of the budget. The bus was mentioned in passing but not directly.
  There will be another opportunity at the EGM, which I think everyone should try and make an effort to go to and raise these issues in a concise way with no wiggle room.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like an unnecessary mess. Planning and chairing a meeting is not rocket science. 
From what I read elsewhere, the motion for the EGM was withdrawn so there will not be another meeting.


----------



## honetpot (5 January 2019)

There is no change in the constitution, the vote was deferred, for the Board to separate out and possibly change the wording.
An EGM was called and supported by many members there, so they have 21 days to sort that. Happy days.


----------



## Velcrobum (5 January 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			You and many others!  Of course, the CE/Chair will be delighted - gives them a chance to get the changes through and make itnecessary to get 200 signatures!!
		
Click to expand...

Probably 300 signatures however it was confirmed it did not have to be a single piece of paper but could be a document comprised of numerous pieces of paper stapled together.


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			There is no change in the constitution, the vote was deferred, for the Board to separate out and possibly change the wording.
An EGM was called and supported by many members there, so they have 21 days to sort that. Happy days.
		
Click to expand...

Anyone got the film?


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			Probably 300 signatures however it was confirmed it did not have to be a single piece of paper but could be a document comprised of numerous pieces of paper stapled together.
		
Click to expand...

Well at the moment it is still only 12. Time to create a new one - if indeed the last one was  withdrawn.


----------



## honetpot (5 January 2019)

Before I left there was no mention of the EGM being cancelled, and with the support in the room, another 12 could be easily found, so it would be improductive to withdraw it.
  A lot of questions could not be asked because we ran out of time and the finances are a big issue which has not been examined.


----------



## Chica (5 January 2019)

Do you know that a senior member of staff said out loud at the meeting for us all to hear that she believed that the business of the BHS was more complex than that of Local Authority Childrens Services and Adoption Services . In fact she changed it to fostering children stating there is only 2 objectives in this work and many more in BHS and so the BHS needed more highly paid directors than an LA Children's Service which is the same size as the BHS . It was so wildly outrageous I could only gasp and heckle I could not offer a succinct suitable response . To be honest I don't think I needed to . The madness of it was not lost on many in the room . Children's Safeguarding and Adoption Services are extremely complex and governed by a lot of different pieces of legislation regulation and guidance . Is ethically very challenging for all concerned and as such matters often end up in the  high court and involves  high risk situations and making long term irreversible decisions about children lives . Decisions in relation to families and overall very high challenge . I was livid and I will never forget these comments which were said by a member of staff who appeared today to be highly regarded by the CEO . This was all in aide of defending the over inflated numbers of highly paid Directors in a question that was effectively about spending money wisely . In fact I was stating my concern that the New Strategy did not have the notion of spending money wisely mentioned anywhere within or any sense of accountability with regard to spending of hard earned charitable funds.


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			Before I left there was no mention of the EGM being cancelled, and with the support in the room, another 12 could be easily found, so it would be improductive to withdraw it.
  A lot of questions could not be asked because we ran out of time and the finances are a big issue which has not been examined.
		
Click to expand...

I hope that you are correct and that the motion for EGM still is in play.


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

Chica said:



			Do you know that a senior member of staff said out loud at the meeting for us all to hear that she believed that the business of the BHS was more complex than that of Local Authority Childrens Services and Adoption Services . In fact she changed it to fostering children stating there is only 2 objectives in this work and many more in BHS and so the BHS needed more highly paid directors than an LA Children's Service which is the same size as the BHS . It was so wildly outrageous I could only gasp and heckle I could not offer a succinct suitable response . To be honest I don't think I needed to . The madness of it was not lost on many in the room . Children's Safeguarding and Adoption Services are extremely complex and governed by a lot of different pieces of legislation regulation and guidance . Is ethically very challenging for all concerned and as such matters often end up in the  high court and involves  high risk situations and making long term irreversible decisions about children lives . Decisions in relation to families and overall very high challenge . I was livid and I will never forget these comments which were said by a member of staff who appeared today to be highly regarded by the CEO . This was all in aide of defending the over inflated numbers of highly paid Directors in a question that was effectively about spending money wisely . In fact I was stating my concern that the New Strategy did not have the notion of spending money wisely mentioned anywhere within or any sense of accountability with regard to spending of hard earned charitable funds.
		
Click to expand...

What an outrageous statement! Number of objectives is no simple guide to complexity.


----------



## Chica (5 January 2019)

I really hope you are right I might have misunderstood . How do we find out for sure ?


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

Chica said:



			I really hope you are right I might have misunderstood . How do we find out for sure ?
		
Click to expand...

In my opinion, not worth the effort. Red herring. This was a large part of my professional background. The assertion made is nonsense.


----------



## honetpot (5 January 2019)

They expected it all to be over by 13.00 I think. In their dreams, so they were totally unprepared for a real AGM,


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

And yet the comments about all the "social media" -


----------



## honetpot (5 January 2019)

Well we get our 12 sigs together, and if there is any move to with draw it we send it in. The mood I felt was the were many financial issue that were not even touched on that people felt needed to be explored. A whole meeting in its self.
 For anyone interested I will copy what I was given and send it by email. The information contained was derisory and not worthy of an organisation with 11m turnover.


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			Well we get our 12 sigs together, and if there is any move to with draw it we send it in. The mood I felt was the were many financial issue that were not even touched on that people felt needed to be explored. A whole meeting in its self.
For anyone interested I will copy what I was given and send it by email. The information contained was derisory and not worthy of an organisation with 11m turnover.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I would like a copy. And if the motion was withdrawn, I support creating a new one.


----------



## Chica (5 January 2019)

I was meaning how do we find out for sure if the EGM is withdrawn. And if It has been can we get it reinstated .


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

Please check with people who were there. I will do the same and write tomorrow.


----------



## Chica (5 January 2019)

I will ask around .


----------



## honetpot (5 January 2019)

Chica said:



			I was meaning how do we find out for sure if the EGM is withdrawn. And if It has been can we get it reinstated .
		
Click to expand...

I would email them, then there is a paper trial and find who put it in. There is perhaps a difficulty because they have to rearrange the vote on the constitutional changes and whether they have to totally redo it.
  I think if the EGM goes a head with a vote of no confidence then, 'it squeezes the blackhead'


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			I would email them, then there is a paper trial and find who put it in. There is perhaps a difficulty because they have to rearrange the vote on the constitutional changes and whether they have to totally redo it.
  I think if the EGM goes a head with a vote of no confidence then, 'it squeezes the blackhead'
		
Click to expand...

Good idea. Shall we all do that?


----------



## honetpot (5 January 2019)

PAK said:



			And yet the comments about all the "social media" -
		
Click to expand...

I do remember one lady in the audience that had very harsh opinions about the membership and the fact that many did not attend AGM's. The idea of engaging the membership and informing them seemed a very alien concept, so they might want to go to the AGM.
 I think for anyone who does not live locally and has animals trekking to this meeting was a huge commitment and I am seriously impressed. We all know what winter with horses is like, so by the time you have arranged sitters, travel and perhaps overnight accommodation any one who didn't go was not showing lack interest.


----------



## honetpot (5 January 2019)

PAK said:



			Good idea. Shall we all do that?
		
Click to expand...

Yep.


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			I do remember one lady in the audience that had very harsh opinions about the membership and the fact that many did not attend AGM's. The idea of engaging the membership and informing them seemed a very alien concept, so they might want to go to the AGM.
I think for anyone who does not live locally and has animals trekking to this meeting was a huge commitment and I am seriously impressed. We all know what winter with horses is like, so by the time you have arranged sitters, travel and perhaps overnight accommodation any one who didn't go was not showing lack interest.
		
Click to expand...

A weak rationale for not respecting or including members or running an organisation in a transparent manner


----------



## PAK (5 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			Yep.
		
Click to expand...

Done


----------



## onemoretime (6 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			Well we get our 12 sigs together, and if there is any move to with draw it we send it in. The mood I felt was the were many financial issue that were not even touched on that people felt needed to be explored. A whole meeting in its self.
For anyone interested I will copy what I was given and send it by email. The information contained was derisory and not worthy of an organisation with 11m turnover.
		
Click to expand...


Im more than happy to sign.  Please let me know what I need to do, Im a Gold Member.


----------



## honetpot (6 January 2019)

There were so many things covered in the meeting, it hard to take it all in.

  One of the points raised was the lack of ability for local reps to contact members, and that all communication had to go the Regional Office. The reasoning for this was compliance with GDPR, and lack of secure computers do hold email addresses at local level. Although on the face of it this sounds plausible, they spent Â£1.4m pounds on IT last year, and I was assured the computer system was now working well, it seems  a strange reason.
  Having spent that amount of money on IT I can not believe that they can not set up a system where you can opt in and out of various email alerts for various interests and groups, such as Google io     https://groups.io/, 

 On this thought I was thinking of setting up a BHS members resource group, as at the moment our information is poorly disseminated, and BHS management for various reasons  is unlikely for to want use to disseminate information with the membership list they have. 
  I do only have basic social media skills, so would anyone be interested in this project or have any other suggestions.


----------



## honetpot (6 January 2019)

onemoretime said:



			Im more than happy to sign.  Please let me know what I need to do, Im a Gold Member.
		
Click to expand...

 I think we need to get some method of creating an opt in contact list, we are not going to get one from the BHS. I will pm my email address.


----------



## Art Nouveau (6 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			There were so many things covered in the meeting, it hard to take it all in.

  One of the points raised was the lack of ability for local reps to contact members, and that all communication had to go the Regional Office. The reasoning for this was compliance with GDPR, and lack of secure computers do hold email addresses at local level. Although on the face of it this sounds plausible, they spent Â£1.4m pounds on IT last year, and I was assured the computer system was now working well, it seems  a strange reason.
  Having spent that amount of money on IT I can not believe that they can not set up a system where you can opt in and out of various email alerts for various interests and groups, such as Google io     https://groups.io/,

On this thought I was thinking of setting up a BHS members resource group, as at the moment our information is poorly disseminated, and BHS management for various reasons  is unlikely for to want use to disseminate information with the membership list they have.
  I do only have basic social media skills, so would anyone be interested in this project or have any other suggestions.
		
Click to expand...

I'm a regional volunteer co-ordinator for a national charity. Every month we get a password protected Excel spreadsheet with the contact details of the regional members who have opted to be contacted by their regional volunteer. We then have to delete the old ones. We are a small charity so perhaps this wouldn't work for one the size of the BHS but there must be some way to make it work.


----------



## ester (6 January 2019)

It doesn't sound like they would cope if all the membership rocked up for an AGM anyway!


----------



## PAK (6 January 2019)

Art Nouveau said:



			I'm a regional volunteer co-ordinator for a national charity. Every month we get a password protected Excel spreadsheet with the contact details of the regional members who have opted to be contacted by their regional volunteer. We then have to delete the old ones. We are a small charity so perhaps this wouldn't work for one the size of the BHS but there must be some way to make it work.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, there are many ways to do this.


----------



## Velcrobum (6 January 2019)

Can anyone point me to where all the BHS managers/Department Heads are listed as for the life of I cannot find this info on the Website!!


----------



## Velcrobum (6 January 2019)

I had the misfortune to be sitting near the CEO who was getting increasingly cross as the meeting did not go the way it was supposed to. There was an awful lot of muttering..........


----------



## PAK (6 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			Can anyone point me to where all the BHS managers/Department Heads are listed as for the life of I cannot find this info on the Website!!
		
Click to expand...

On BHS site, go to Home, Contact Us, Department Contact Information


----------



## Velcrobum (6 January 2019)

PAK said:



			On BHS site, go to Home, Contact Us, Department Contact Information
		
Click to expand...

Found that page but all I get is a list of departments no actual names. Perhaps because I am using a Kindle. Will try again when I have access to a proper computer.


----------



## PAK (6 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			Found that page but all I get is a list of departments no actual names. Perhaps because I am using a Kindle. Will try again when I have access to a proper computer.
		
Click to expand...

You are right- it does not list names- just departments


----------



## Karen 71 (7 January 2019)

I've just sussed no treasurer report at the meeting! Surely the whole point is to be able to question where money is being spent? The second lorry through SEIB was grant funded up to Â£50,000 but I have been told it cost far more than that to kit it out with "extras" to get it to the standard the CEO demanded. So if this is true I want too see in black and white the full cost of both lorries together with running and maintenance and wage costs. Did the main person really leave before he could be asked questions. Oh my goodness what a shambles.


----------



## PAK (7 January 2019)

Karen 71 said:



			I've just sussed no treasurer report at the meeting! Surely the whole point is to be able to question where money is being spent? The second lorry through SEIB was grant funded up to Â£50,000 but I have been told it cost far more than that to kit it out with "extras" to get it to the standard the CEO demanded. So if this is true I want too see in black and white the full cost of both lorries together with running and maintenance and wage costs. Did the main person really leave before he could be asked questions. Oh my goodness what a shambles.
		
Click to expand...

As I understand it, there was no presentation of the accounts nor treasurer available to answer questions. The question of the full cost of the lorry was raised but not answered.


----------



## JanetGeorge (7 January 2019)

To ensure we do NOT lose a platform for communication, we now have a FB group.  It IS closed and we have a couple of easy questions for potential members.  https://www.facebook.com/groups/membersBHS/


----------



## PAK (7 January 2019)

Going to post the excellent minutes? A few little typos might be corrected and then I think it would be good to post them


----------



## Velcrobum (7 January 2019)

PAK said:



			As I understand it, there was no presentation of the accounts nor treasurer available to answer questions. The question of the full cost of the lorry was raised but not answered.
		
Click to expand...

The treasurer was present for the "sales pitch" of the proposed changes and the result of the ballot then slipped out the side door. He was absent from the members meeting.


----------



## PAK (7 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			The treasurer was present for the "sales pitch" of the proposed changes and the result of the ballot then slipped out the side door. He was absent from the members meeting.
		
Click to expand...

Hard to believe. Such an unprofessional way to run a meeting.


----------



## Karen 71 (7 January 2019)

You can bet the CEO wanted him out of the room, after all he would certainly have a job justifying the current regime's expenditure of late. Beggars belief what they are getting away with. Do you think Martin Clunes has any idea what's going on and would he still want to be associated if he knew.


----------



## PAK (7 January 2019)

Karen 71 said:



You can bet the CEO wanted him out of the room, after all he would certainly have a job justifying the current regime's expenditure of late. Beggars belief what they are getting away with. Do you think Martin Clunes has any idea what's going on and would he still want to be associated if he knew.

Click to expand...

I imagine that Clunes is not aware; nor is HM QE the patron or the Princess Royal. At least we ignorant members are in good company.


----------



## honetpot (8 January 2019)

Please join our facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/groups/membersBHS/about/

Its not for slagging people off, or personal attacks, its for exchange of information, a central point for public documents that maybe you would like to see. So that you can form your own opinion.

We are also looking for insights in to why the focus appears to have changed. I am trying to obtain a full copy of the  BHS Strategic Plan
The BHS Trust Board are not communicating with members, so we are trying to fill the gap.
It was apparent from the meeting that a lot of the members there, that they and the members they represented been unhappy for a while in how the BHS treats its membership.
You may have that piece of information that helps for the picture of how this happened. Even if you are non BHS member you may have insights in accounts, and previous work with charities, including sports and animal charities,could give ideas for best practice.


----------



## Palomino Dream (9 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			Please join our facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/groups/membersBHS/about/

Its not for slagging people off, or personal attacks, its for exchange of information, a central point for public documents that maybe you would like to see. So that you can form your own opinion.

We are also looking for insights in to why the focus appears to have changed. I am trying to obtain a full copy of the  BHS Strategic Plan
The BHS Trust Board are not communicating with members, so we are trying to fill the gap.
It was apparent from the meeting that a lot of the members there, that they and the members they represented been unhappy for a while in how the BHS treats its membership.
You may have that piece of information that helps for the picture of how this happened. Even if you are non BHS member you may have insights in accounts, and previous work with charities, including sports and animal charities,could give ideas for best practice.
		
Click to expand...

I was at the meeting and heard that the BHS now has over 104,000 members. How on earth can the BHS please all of the members all of the time? It seems to me that people are very happy to join in the slagging off rather than seek an alternative point of view. There was some very unpleasant behaviour from some attendees and it seemed VERY personal and self serving to me. I want to hear the other side of the debate and am pleased to read that you don't support personal attacks or the slagging off that I witnessed by some members at the meeting.


----------



## Velcrobum (10 January 2019)

In today's H&H there are 2 letters from Islay Auth FBHS and Andrew Downes FBHS supporting Pammy Hutton's views aired last week. All are saying please BHS and BD listen to your membership as they have a vast wealth of knowledge and also listen to those who have been around a long time who understand why and how things have evolved in a certain way.


----------



## PAK (10 January 2019)

Palomino Dream said:



			I was at the meeting and heard that the BHS now has over 104,000 members. How on earth can the BHS please all of the members all of the time? It seems to me that people are very happy to join in the slagging off rather than seek an alternative point of view. There was some very unpleasant behaviour from some attendees and it seemed VERY personal and self serving to me. I want to hear the other side of the debate and am pleased to read that you don't support personal attacks or the slagging off that I witnessed by some members at the meeting.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think this is about pleasing all of the members all of the time. Let's stick to the facts; asking & answering questions respectfully. This is a membership based organisation. 101 members gathered, despite at a difficult time of year to meet, and legitimate questions were raised. They remain unanswered.


----------



## PAK (10 January 2019)

From the source of the petition -
With regard to the call for an EGM delivered to the CEO of the BHS on the morning of Saturday 5th Jan 2019, an EGM can only deal with the subject matter, in this case "Loss of confidence in the Chairman and Board of Trustees of the BHS" no other subject matter can be included or discussed.        In order to allow for thorough questions a general meeting would have to be held after the EGM.        The decision of the group who tabled the summons was to withdraw the EGM covenant as it was felt that with at least 2 meetings in the offing it could lead to voter fatigue and loss of support.       The BHS resolution has been adjourned, consequently any 12 members of the BHS can still table another EGM with specific proposals at any time until the resolution is carried.


----------



## Chica (10 January 2019)

Palomino Dream said:



			I was at the meeting and heard that the BHS now has over 104,000 members. How on earth can the BHS please all of the members all of the time? It seems to me that people are very happy to join in the slagging off rather than seek an alternative point of view. There was some very unpleasant behaviour from some attendees and it seemed VERY personal and self serving to me. I want to hear the other side of the debate and am pleased to read that you don't support personal attacks or the slagging off that I witnessed by some members at the meeting.
		
Click to expand...

The great thing about a debate is that it has two sides and I was pleased that there was another Voice represented at the meeting and hopefully ongoing on the Facebook page . However what I heard at the meeting was passionate and determined questioning which was trying to get to the truth and to stir the board to accept that it needs to start to listen to its members . I also heard some of those in favour of the changes get a bit hot under the collar and for me that is not a bad thing it is Passion and if we can't be so about our love of horses then it is a bad job . As I said in an earlier post the board need to put a lot more focus into genuine engagement rather than to discredit those who speak out .


----------



## PAK (10 January 2019)

Chica said:



			The great thing about a debate is that it has two sides and I was pleased that there was another Voice represented at the meeting and hopefully ongoing on the Facebook page . However what I heard at the meeting was passionate and determined questioning which was trying to get to the truth and to stir the board to accept that it needs to start to listen to its members . I also heard some of those in favour of the changes get a bit hot under the collar and for me that is not a bad thing it is Passion and if we can't be so about our love of horses then it is a bad job . As I said in an earlier post the board need to put a lot more focus into genuine engagement rather than to discredit those who speak out .
		
Click to expand...

Thank you Chica. Would you be able to share a specific point/question that was raised and needs to be answered? Or something that was not "positive"?


----------



## Chica (10 January 2019)

The CEO made a plea to those present before the vote talking as if she was some sort of a victim  something along the lines of how can people here present not think that I have best interest of horses an the BHS at my heart and how she is so dedicated to Britain and the BHS . Some people might have  found this inspiring but I was not one of those . I found it worrying and unprofessional. Financial questions were not answered orcat best only partly answered . More examples will follow .


----------



## PAK (10 January 2019)

Chica said:



			The CEO made a plea to those present before the vote talking as if she was some sort of a victim  something along the lines of how can people here present not think that I have best interest of horses an the BHS at my heart and how she is so dedicated to Britain and the BHS . Some people might have  found this inspiring but I was not one of those . I found it worrying and unprofessional. Financial questions were not answered orcat best only partly answered . More examples will follow .
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for these specific examples.


----------



## Velcrobum (11 January 2019)

The CEO's little speech was embarrassing and IMHO melodramatic. She certainly to my perspective was playing a victim. There were many ex board members in the room who were obviously concerned about the way BHS is going. It was an ex board member who called for an adjournment of the vote citing the relevant part of the articles. This led to a hurried pause in proceedings to check the articles for verification. I sincerely hope that the board and chair have properly listened to the concerns raised which IMHO were valid and reasoned.


----------



## PAK (11 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			The CEO's little speech was embarrassing and IMHO melodramatic. She certainly to my perspective was playing a victim. There were many ex board members in the room who were obviously concerned about the way BHS is going. It was an ex board member who called for an adjournment of the vote citing the relevant part of the articles. This led to a hurried pause in proceedings to check the articles for verification. I sincerely hope that the board and chair have properly listened to the concerns raised which IMHO were valid and reasoned.
		
Click to expand...

You are more of an optimist than I am. Yesterday's email about the positive meeting is yet another sign, imo, that they are not listening.


----------



## PAK (11 January 2019)

I have not received any minutes yet. Has anyone? 

"Thank you for your enquiry requesting further clarity on some of the topics discussed in the General Meeting of the British Horse Society held on Saturday 5 January. Notes from the meeting will be made available by close of business on Friday 11 January. If these notes do not answer your query then please emailgeneralmeeting@bhs.org.uk

Best wishes

Sarah (Phillips) COO"
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/bhs-meeting-update.771333/page-3#Uwi2ck5HD3YZGOp2.99


----------



## Violettears (11 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			Please join our facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/groups/membersBHS/about/

Its not for slagging people off, or personal attacks, its for exchange of information, a central point for public documents that maybe you would like to see. So that you can form your own opinion.

We are also looking for insights in to why the focus appears to have changed. I am trying to obtain a full copy of the  BHS Strategic Plan
The BHS Trust Board are not communicating with members, so we are trying to fill the gap.
It was apparent from the meeting that a lot of the members there, that they and the members they represented been unhappy for a while in how the BHS treats its membership.
You may have that piece of information that helps for the picture of how this happened. Even if you are non BHS member you may have insights in accounts, and previous work with charities, including sports and animal charities,could give ideas for best practice.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Violettears (11 January 2019)

Hello everyone, I have been following all this.. been a bhs member for a long time and i find it bad that it seems to be a few individuals who want to spoil all the good work that bhs does... and not talk about that in the last few years they have gone right up in my opinion. A friend of mine was at the meeting and told me that it was just a few individuals who had a personal agenda. Itâ€™s got far too personal if you ask me. Come on you lot, there are over 100,000 members allegedly, thatâ€™s a lot of horsey people who think bhs do good!


----------



## PAK (11 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			Hello everyone, I have been following all this.. been a bhs member for a long time and i find it bad that it seems to be a few individuals who want to spoil all the good work that bhs does... and not talk about that in the last few years they have gone right up in my opinion. A friend of mine was at the meeting and told me that it was just a few individuals who had a personal agenda. Itâ€™s got far too personal if you ask me. Come on you lot, there are over 100,000 members allegedly, thatâ€™s a lot of horsey people who think bhs do good!
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for your views Violettears. I respectfully disagree. These individuals are neither few nor wanting to spoil. They are in growing number and desperately wanting to save & help. And yes, the BHS does a lot of good and has done for a long time. That's why were are loyal members who want to see it do far better and in a far better way. This is the loyal opposition- trying to improve not destroy.


----------



## PAK (11 January 2019)

Violettears - and others - Asking questions & showing an active interest, in my opinion, is a right and a responsibility of members. It should be welcomed.


----------



## JanetGeorge (11 January 2019)

PAK said:



			You are right- it does not list names- just departments
		
Click to expand...

Have a ook at this.  Of couse,  a year old so some of the department heads/directors might have been shoved out, but:  https://docplayer.net/81333497-Monthly-report-january.html


----------



## JanetGeorge (11 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			A friend of mine was at the meeting and told me that it was just a few individuals who had a personal agenda. Itâ€™s got far too personal if you ask me. Come on you lot, there are over 100,000 members allegedly, thatâ€™s a lot of horsey people who think bhs do good!
		
Click to expand...

Lol, I think your friend was listening to LP twitching!  The BHS Members Group was strated on FB on Monday - it has over 160 members already and at LEAST 95% have answered the question: "Are you concerned about the management of the BHS?" have answered yes - and many elaborated further.


----------



## onemoretime (11 January 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Lol, I think your friend was listening to LP twitching!  The BHS Members Group was strated on FB on Monday - it has over 160 members already and at LEAST 95% have answered the question: "Are you concerned about the management of the BHS?" have answered yes - and many elaborated further.
		
Click to expand...

totally agree Janet.  There are a lot of reasons for members to be concerned about.  Not least the cavalier attitude with members money!


----------



## PAK (11 January 2019)

And the concerned are expressed in the genuine hope that things will be improved.


----------



## Karen 71 (11 January 2019)

I wish it could be confirmed that there are 100,000 members or whether figures are being massaged like the accounts! The mere fact that accounts not discussed at such an important meeting is surely not legal, how on earth are members to know what is truth and what is not. Never ever known anything like this situation and I've been a member for as long as I can remember. I am so worried about what is going on. How do we go about getting a vote of no confidence in the whole lot.


----------



## PAK (11 January 2019)

Karen 71 said:



			I wish it could be confirmed that there are 100,000 members or whether figures are being massaged like the accounts! The mere fact that accounts not discussed at such an important meeting is surely not legal, how on earth are members to know what is truth and what is not. Never ever known anything like this situation and I've been a member for as long as I can remember. I am so worried about what is going on. How do we go about getting a vote of no confidence in the whole lot.
		
Click to expand...

Hi Karen - I share your concern. Some suggestions - have a look at the thread BHS Meeting Update for the news since 5 Jan. Join  Facebook at British Horse Society Members' Group. People there are trying to raise awareness and help change the situation for the better. We are not trying to tear this down; we are trying to make it better. We love the BHS but we don't love the way it is being run.
The petition that was submitted at the meeting was about a vote of no confidence in the Chair and the Board. Additionally we have found some recent public information about the membership. As of January it said 
1882 Life, 40 Friend, 18167 Gold Family (not sure of how many votes per family, 66426 Gold Adult, 10248 Gold Jr (note sure if all ages can vote) total of 96763 Potential votes. For further clarification, BRC members are automatically BHS members with votes. Statements have been made that there is no double or triple counting. Must say I remain to be convinced. Not only is it poor practice not to present or discuss the accounts; try reading them. Clear as mud. In recent years, year after year of losses, but total reserves appear relatively unchanged. The income from BRC flows through BHS accounts but it is unclear where the payment  to the insurance provider is made.  
Join us.


----------



## honetpot (12 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			Hello everyone, I have been following all this.. been a bhs member for a long time and i find it bad that it seems to be a few individuals who want to spoil all the good work that bhs does... and not talk about that in the last few years they have gone right up in my opinion. A friend of mine was at the meeting and told me that it was just a few individuals who had a personal agenda. Itâ€™s got far too personal if you ask me. Come on you lot, there are over 100,000 members allegedly, thatâ€™s a lot of horsey people who think bhs do good!
		
Click to expand...

About the membership figures

I asked who was allowed to vote before the meeting....I didn't  get a reply
I asked at the meeting....I didn't get a clear response. It seemed to suggest that BRC members are allowed to vote as well, although they are members of a separate organization.
I have asked for a breakdown of who is allowed to vote, divided by membership and age......and guess what despite being assured the IT could get the figures at the touch of a button, I haven't had reply.

Now whether you think are reasons are valid or not, under Charity law you have to know who is allowed to vote. I can show you the document. I emailed the BHS the document and the questions I wished to ask before the meeting so they should have sorted the figures for the meeting.

They should have had the Accounts for the meeting, the Treasurer should have been present to answer questions.
They should have had asked for items for the Agenda, I emailed them with mine. So nothing was a surprise.

Now I have meeting to a few AGM's in my time, from the Village Hall, to sports clubs and never seen this shambles. If the Village Hall can hold a proper AGM, or this case GM, why on earth can not they. For goodness sake they have 140 staff employed, surely someone must have been available to sort the paperwork.

They have a turnover of Â£11m, but made a loss.
With no clear accounts, and money mixed from BRC and BHS, its not clear what is charitable revenue and what is earned from trading and where it comes from. This is not to comply with anyone's whim but with charity law.

What they spend the money on is whole different argument, which could be a matter of opinion. Its remains unclear from the accounts as filed for 2017 where the money is being spent and from what budget.
I have a job where I have to account for everything and have an audit trail.
 I try and deal in facts and the facts to not show the BHS in a good light.


----------



## Red-1 (12 January 2019)

PAK said:



			For further clarification, BRC members are automatically BHS members with votes.
		
Click to expand...

Is this true? After being a member on and off since 1985, and consistently since 2007 until I stopped last year, I am interested in what happens with the BHS. I am a horse owner former professional, interested in welfare, interested in access... and a member of a BRC since 1998, fully paid up all that time.

I am not aware of being informed about any meeting or vote apart from what I have seen on here. This is the first time I have even heard that I could have voted. If I am entitled to vote then surely they should at least inform me of the meeting?

Was there a slip in a magazine or something? I have certainly not had any email.


----------



## honetpot (12 January 2019)

I have asked for a breakdown of who is allowed to vote in writing before and at the meeting and I have not had a response.

The room was full and it was difficult to hear, BRC was mentioned, and the COO ,'said everyone can vote'. So I have asked again for clarification and not got it.

The BHS, seems to be including BRC in all its publicity in growth of members, where I always thought the two were separate. Bridleways members get a 30% discount to join the BHS

The BRC is a private company, its account on Companies House is dormant, but its finances and office staff are run through the BHS, this is long standing.
I have included the last page of the BHS Strategic Plan, which mentions BRC.

Its all as clear as mud.


----------



## Red-1 (12 January 2019)

Mysterious indeed.

If BRC members are indeed allowed to vote, then surely if they are not informed of any vote, or meeting, then surely any vote done at said meeting would be null and void?

I am not well up on the rules concerning charities, but surely it can't be allowed to have a vote without informing voters?

Confused.com.


ETA, I had a look at the document you attached, and I am still not sure what they mean.

The text says, under what they are measuring... "measuring growth in numbers of BRC members who join as members of the British Horse Society, the increase in number of BRC clubs, the increase in BRC members and number of participants in BRC events."

So, are they measuring all BRC members, who automatically become members of the BHS when they join as a benefit of the BRC, or are they measuring people who join a BRC and then also chose to become a BHS member by paying extra, or indeed, those who are already BHS members and then join a BRC?

I think grammatically it could be any of those options.

It would seem that BRC have over 34,000 members, so not a small organisation, according to this document...

www.bhs.org.uk/~/media/bhs/files/pdf-documents/brc/brc-club-starter-pack.ashx

This document also states that The BHS Board of Trustees is legally responsible for BRC finances.

It would be good to know if what was said at the meeting was correct, about BRC members having a vote. If the question was posed then *should* be on the minutes?????? Although on another document the BHS seem to be referring to the minutes as "notes" rather than minutes. Was the meeting not officially minuted?


----------



## Velcrobum (12 January 2019)

The chair stated at the start of proceedings that the meeting would be minuted and introduced a lady who was sitting in the corner of the room behind the CEO. I didn't write her name down.


----------



## Chica (12 January 2019)

Do you think the missing mins are with BHS private solicitors for checking . Given thier current reputation for not being open and honest with the membership I wonder if they are checking how little they  can get away with putting in them .


----------



## PAK (12 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			About the membership figures

I asked who was allowed to vote before the meeting....I didn't  get a reply
I asked at the meeting....I didn't get a clear response. It seemed to suggest that BRC members are allowed to vote as well, although they are members of a separate organization.
I have asked for a breakdown of who is allowed to vote, divided by membership and age......and guess what despite being assured the IT could get the figures at the touch of a button, I haven't had reply.

Now whether you think are reasons are valid or not, under Charity law you have to know who is allowed to vote. I can show you the document. I emailed the BHS the document and the questions I wished to ask before the meeting so they should have sorted the figures for the meeting.

They should have had the Accounts for the meeting, the Treasurer should have been present to answer questions.
They should have had asked for items for the Agenda, I emailed them with mine. So nothing was a surprise.

Now I have meeting to a few AGM's in my time, from the Village Hall, to sports clubs and never seen this shambles. If the Village Hall can hold a proper AGM, or this case GM, why on earth can not they. For goodness sake they have 140 staff employed, surely someone must have been available to sort the paperwork.

They have a turnover of Â£11m, but made a loss.
With no clear accounts, and money mixed from BRC and BHS, its not clear what is charitable revenue and what is earned from trading and where it comes from. This is not to comply with anyone's whim but with charity law.

What they spend the money on is whole different argument, which could be a matter of opinion. Its remains unclear from the accounts as filed for 2017 where the money is being spent and from what budget.
I have a job where I have to account for everything and have an audit trail.
I try and deal in facts and the facts to not show the BHS in a good light.
		
Click to expand...

They have lost money year after year. I think the last surplus was made when Patrick Print signed the accounts!


----------



## PAK (12 January 2019)

Red-1 said:



			Is this true? After being a member on and off since 1985, and consistently since 2007 until I stopped last year, I am interested in what happens with the BHS. I am a horse owner former professional, interested in welfare, interested in access... and a member of a BRC since 1998, fully paid up all that time.

I am not aware of being informed about any meeting or vote apart from what I have seen on here. This is the first time I have even heard that I could have voted. If I am entitled to vote then surely they should at least inform me of the meeting?

Was there a slip in a magazine or something? I have certainly not had any email.
		
Click to expand...

Yes Red this is true. A BRC member is a voting member of the BHS and by law you should have been informed. If you read the previous posts you can find out about the deceptive, in my opinion, means of "communication". Well done Janet for shining the public light on this matter. If she had not done so, it would have been practically impossible for us to ever call an EGM to get valid questions answered.


----------



## PAK (12 January 2019)

Red - and others - go to the thread BHS Meeting Update to find out more and join the Facebook page BHS Members Support Group. Now is the time for all good riders/breeders/horse lovers to herd together to be heard!


----------



## honetpot (12 January 2019)

Chica said:



			Do you think the missing mins are with BHS private solicitors for checking . Given thier current reputation for not being open and honest with the membership I wonder if they are checking how little they  can get away with putting in them .
		
Click to expand...

I got an email from the COO, Sarah saying  that the minutes would be out by close of business on Friday 11th Jan, in answer to my question about how the membership was made up sent by email.
You were there. We were told that the IT was working well and the numbers could be retrieved easily. If she made a mistake and misunderstood how the membership is made up, fair enough but we need to know.

I have attached a document from NPS , that shows who gets what and who is entitled to vote, just for information.


----------



## Red-1 (12 January 2019)

PAK said:



			Yes Red this is true. A BRC member is a voting member of the BHS and by law you should have been informed. If you read the previous posts you can find out about the deceptive, in my opinion, means of "communication". Well done Janet for shining the public light on this matter. If she had not done so, it would have been practically impossible for us to ever call an EGM to get valid questions answered.
		
Click to expand...

I was not informed. I do not get the BHS magazine as part of my Riding Club membership, so would not have seen an envelope from there.

I do get the occasional magazine from BRC, but I have not heard about, or seen, any envelopes re a meeting or vote in there.

As all members of the BHS were also emailed, why did this not happen for BRC members?

So, any vote would have been unlawful, if BRC members were not informed?


----------



## PAK (12 January 2019)

Red-1 said:



			I was not informed. I do not get the BHS magazine as part of my Riding Club membership, so would not have seen an envelope from there.

I do get the occasional magazine from BRC, but I have not heard about, or seen, any envelopes re a meeting or vote in there.

As all members of the BHS were also emailed, why did this not happen for BRC members?

So, any vote would have been unlawful, if BRC members were not informed?
		
Click to expand...

Yes unlawful but thankfully it did not happen on the 5th DESPITE the statement from the chair that he had enough proxy votes to pass the changes without a vote. Three cheers for those who were on the front foot and submitted the petition. Without them, this would have passed and once passed, would be very difficult to undo.


----------



## PAK (12 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			I got an email from the COO, Sarah saying  that the minutes would be out by close of business on Friday 11th Jan, in answer to my question about how the membership was made up sent by email.
You were there. We were told that the IT was working well and the numbers could be retrieved easily. If she made a mistake and misunderstood how the membership is made up, fair enough but we need to know.

I have attached a document from NPS , that shows who gets what and who is entitled to vote, just for information.
		
Click to expand...




Chica said:



			Do you think the missing mins are with BHS private solicitors for checking . Given thier current reputation for not being open and honest with the membership I wonder if they are checking how little they  can get away with putting in them .
		
Click to expand...

Are the minutes with the solicitors? I doubt it but it would be nice to think they were. HOWEVER, there is nothing to prevent them from issuing communication to say that they were sorry the minutes were not available as promised and that they would be available on some date or "soon". I strongly suspect that the person (SP) that gave the date of 11 Jan completely underestimated to work and importance of these minutes or notes.


----------



## Zebedee (12 January 2019)

BRC MEMBERS ARE NOT VOTING MEMBERS OF THE BHS UNLESS THEY ARE ALSO BHS MEMBERS.

They are also NOT included in the BHS membership numbers.  Sorry to appear shouting, but it's important that this is clearly understood.


----------



## Velcrobum (12 January 2019)

Thank you Zebedee for posting this information, sadly at the meeting it would appear that some of the statements/responses from the front of the room were incorrect which IMHO calls into question how much else information given to the membership has been incorrect or not the full information. Sadly Britsh Dressage has also followed a similar path.

Addition:- Having just checked my notes it was stated that all members of BHS were voting members this includes junior members.


----------



## Zebedee (12 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			Thank you Zebedee for posting this information, sadly at the meeting it would appear that some of the statements/responses from the front of the room were incorrect which IMHO calls into question how much else information given to the membership has been incorrect or not the full information. Sadly Britsh Dressage has also followed a similar path.
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't there, but I would hazard a guess that either the question or the answer was misunderstood.


----------



## Blazingsaddles (12 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			Hello everyone, I have been following all this.. been a bhs member for a long time and i find it bad that it seems to be a few individuals who want to spoil all the good work that bhs does... and not talk about that in the last few years they have gone right up in my opinion. A friend of mine was at the meeting and told me that it was just a few individuals who had a personal agenda. Itâ€™s got far too personal if you ask me. Come on you lot, there are over 100,000 members allegedly, thatâ€™s a lot of horsey people who think bhs do good!
		
Click to expand...

Please expand. Why has the BHS gone up in your estimations in the past few years?


----------



## PAK (12 January 2019)

Zebedee said:



			BRC MEMBERS ARE NOT VOTING MEMBERS OF THE BHS UNLESS THEY ARE ALSO BHS MEMBERS.

They are also NOT included in the BHS membership numbers.  Sorry to appear shouting, but it's important that this is clearly understood.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you Zebedee - I have seen and heard information to the contrary. But I believe you- so you might consider stopping the shouting.


----------



## Palomino Dream (12 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			Hello everyone, I have been following all this.. been a bhs member for a long time and i find it bad that it seems to be a few individuals who want to spoil all the good work that bhs does... and not talk about that in the last few years they have gone right up in my opinion. A friend of mine was at the meeting and told me that it was just a few individuals who had a personal agenda. Itâ€™s got far too personal if you ask me. Come on you lot, there are over 100,000 members allegedly, thatâ€™s a lot of horsey people who think bhs do good!
		
Click to expand...

I think so, too. They do so much to educate drivers on how to drive around horses, safely. I saw a virtual reality film on their facebook page which was really good in showing the dangers that horse riders encounter on the roads.And I know a bit about some of the work they do with treating ponies at mobile clinics using the lorry that the insurance company provided after they asked their customers to vote for their favourite charity. I haven't been a member for very long but I really like what I've seen so far from the BHS.


----------



## honetpot (12 January 2019)

Zebedee said:



			I wasn't there, but I would hazard a guess that either the question or the answer was misunderstood. 

Click to expand...

I asked the question.
I also asked the question by email before the meeting, so the answer should have been clear, they should have prepped for the meeting. I was also told at the meeting that IT system was 'working well' and they could generate the figures easily.

I have asked since the meeting and not had a reply. I have said before if we misheard her or misunderstood what she said, all is required is a break down of the figures, in a simple spreadsheet. Job done.

My husbands club breakdown their membership by age and gender, just to see if they, they are losing or gaining members in certain groups.

The BHS query about membership is about voting rights.
Who is allowed to vote, and if children, say under sixteens are allowed to vote, who in reality votes for them.The constitution is a mess and its not clear.


----------



## FrecklesTheCat (12 January 2019)

For me the one big, HUGE red flag - is that they want to increase the number of people that can call for an EGM from 12 to 250+. 12 is an easily achieveable number. How many folk know 249 other members? The only reasonable reason I can see for this would be if this had been getting abused by the membership calling multiple EGMs annually and thus wasting money. I haven't seen any signs of this.
So why do they want to make calling an EGM so much more difficult? It doesn't signal to me an operation that is wanting to be open and accessible to their members.


----------



## honetpot (12 January 2019)

Palomino Dream said:



			I think so, too. They do so much to educate drivers on how to drive around horses, safely. I saw a virtual reality film on their facebook page which was really good in showing the dangers that horse riders encounter on the roads.And I know a bit about some of the work they do with treating ponies at mobile clinics using the lorry that the insurance company provided after they asked their customers to vote for their favourite charity. I haven't been a member for very long but I really like what I've seen so far from the BHS.
		
Click to expand...

 First of all I think your opinion is valuable, but you have no idea of what we have lost.

There are people on the FB page who have worked for volunteers for years in welfare and access, people who you never see and hear about. They say they have been discouraged, had support removed and not listened to, and in some cases driven away.


Now I deal in facts.
2017 Accounts
In the accounts they spent Â£138,000 on a lorry, its a HGV, its a commercial verchule, so will need not only a HGV driver but also need servicing more often than say a privately used 7.5tonne horsebox.
Where is the budget is the driver costs ( about Â£200 a day) or the cost of servicing and repairs?

Castration clinics,
'In 2017  we held  seven  more Healthcare Clinics  as part of  the BHS/BEVA  collaboration  - with 349  high 
risk  horses  attending  - 134  of  which were castrated  in  line  with  our policy on  responsible  breeding.'
It doesn't give a cost per castration, but even if its Â£250 castration, its Â£3,350.

If you pay Â£69 on your Gold membership, and your 3rd party insurance is say, Â£10, and its the insurance of last resort, if you have other insurance they will use that first. Where is the other Â£59 going? Would you like to know?

I have been a member for 40 years and I have learnt so much since last Saturday, and I am appalled. If you are happy with what you get now, just imagine how happy you would be if it was better.


----------



## honetpot (12 January 2019)

FrecklesTheCat said:



			For me the one big, HUGE red flag - is that they want to increase the number of people that can call for an EGM from 12 to 250+. 12 is an easily achieveable number. How many folk know 249 other members? The only reasonable reason I can see for this would be if this had been getting abused by the membership calling multiple EGMs annually and thus wasting money. I haven't seen any signs of this.
So why do they want to make calling an EGM so much more difficult? It doesn't signal to me an operation that is wanting to be open and accessible to their members.
		
Click to expand...

I can get the point if... There wasn't 140 potential employee members who can vote and it was going to give a better representation of the members.

How many are based in headquarters, and apparently they can all vote, no conflict of interest? Most votes are done on a show of hands.
How many can be paid to attend? Would you want to turn up for work if you had voted against something your bosses wanted?
No voting by remotely despite spending over Â£1m on IT in 2017.

The Trust Board wants to restrict the selection of Trustees even further. They have an interview panel now, you can be put forward by members but you may not get in. Yet they can co-opt non-members on to the Board, who doesn't have to be a member. So potentially the Board could be loaded towards one view or objective.

So how will that make them more representative of the membership?

The database of members is only accessible to Head Office, no split secure email account lists( did I mention over Â£1 million on IT)  hence the FB page.

FB is at the moment now the only way for members to communicate with members, so how do you inform or canvas members. ( A big thank you to H&H for letting this run) Or even find out what they are thinking?
What they would like the charitable part of their money spent on? China? So far not, we are polling.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/membersBHS/
We are a small admin team, answer the questions and its easier to join the group.

I can not believe some of the calibre of the people who have joined. People who are passionate, and committed about welfare, access and education for the horse owner, pooling ideas and experiences.

I suppose my big wish is that BHS HO and Trust Board, listen to the members who attended the meeting and expressed their concerns, do not shoot the messenger, do not see us as trouble makers and react in a positive away. Call their own EGM, that is run in proper manner worthy of a great UK charity, so that matters that concern members of great experience can be discussed and hopefully resolved.


----------



## Zebedee (13 January 2019)

FrecklesTheCat said:



			For me the one big, HUGE red flag - is that they want to increase the number of people that can call for an EGM from 12 to 250+. 12 is an easily achieveable number. How many folk know 249 other members? The only reasonable reason I can see for this would be if this had been getting abused by the membership calling multiple EGMs annually and thus wasting money. I haven't seen any signs of this.
So why do they want to make calling an EGM so much more difficult? It doesn't signal to me an operation that is wanting to be open and accessible to their members.
		
Click to expand...

I think it would be very easy to read a bit too much in to this. I think most people are aware that a group of BE members  (about 112 I think?) recently called for an EGM. That meeting cost BE around about Â£8k. I think that raised alarm bells somewhere in the BHS that if only 12 people were needed to call an EGM there was a huge potential for 'malicious' meeting calling, so they'ev come up with a very small percentage of members needed to call such a meeting. There is still some lack of clarity as to what form the document would need to take -but it has been confirmed that it wouldn't need to be one single document - it could be single requests sent in together.  Could it be circulated by scanning a document, printing it, signing it, then scanning it forward to the next person? Even if scans weren't acceptable -and that would be surprising as scanned documents sent by email are considered acceptable for many other purposes - if everybody who supported the call for a meeting put their signed declaration in the post on the same day and sent it first class to a collator who then forwarded it I think a call for a meeting could still each the BHS within 72 hrs. With social media groups etc it isn't even that hard to contact 200 + people, and there still the good old telephone to spread the word as well. 

So in short while I can see that it does look like a huge leap in numbers I personally don't see anything sinister about it. I would hope though that some middle ground re the numbers needed could be found, and that peoples concerns about this aspect at least could be put to rest.


----------



## Red-1 (13 January 2019)

FrecklesTheCat said:



			For me the one big, HUGE red flag - is that they want to increase the number of people that can call for an EGM from 12 to 250+. 12 is an easily achieveable number. How many folk know 249 other members? The only reasonable reason I can see for this would be if this had been getting abused by the membership calling multiple EGMs annually and thus wasting money. I haven't seen any signs of this.
So why do they want to make calling an EGM so much more difficult? It doesn't signal to me an operation that is wanting to be open and accessible to their members.
		
Click to expand...

From the article in H and Hound, the actual number is 300 people. It states that it is 250+ rounded to the nearest hundred, so 300.

I would doubt that Horse and Hound got that wrong, but then there are no minutes as yet to confirm.


----------



## Red-1 (13 January 2019)

Zebedee said:



			BRC MEMBERS ARE NOT VOTING MEMBERS OF THE BHS UNLESS THEY ARE ALSO BHS MEMBERS.

They are also NOT included in the BHS membership numbers.  Sorry to appear shouting, but it's important that this is clearly understood.
		
Click to expand...




honetpot said:



			I asked the question.
I also asked the question by email before the meeting, so the answer should have been clear, they should have prepped for the meeting. I was also told at the meeting that IT system was 'working well' and they could generate the figures easily.

I have asked since the meeting and not had a reply. I have said before if we misheard her or misunderstood what she said, all is required is a break down of the figures, in a simple spreadsheet. Job done.

My husbands club breakdown their membership by age and gender, just to see if they, they are losing or gaining members in certain groups.

The BHS query about membership is about voting rights.
Who is allowed to vote, and if children, say under sixteens are allowed to vote, who in reality votes for them.The constitution is a mess and its not clear.
		
Click to expand...


It seems some of the concerns are about inefficiency then. The trouble is that if people have been upset from some perceived wrongdoing, when it is compounded by inefficiency it can look like information has been deliberately covered up.

The minutes (or 'notes' as they seem to now be referred to) will make interesting reading. I do not envy the note taker! But then, it was also filmed so presumably it can be a big effort to make the notes match the reality. I doubt the film will be made available. Probably cite data protection!


----------



## Zebedee (13 January 2019)

Red-1 said:



			It seems some of the concerns are about inefficiency then. The trouble is that if people have been upset from some perceived wrongdoing, when it is compounded by inefficiency it can look like information has been deliberately covered up.

The minutes (or 'notes' as they seem to now be referred to) will make interesting reading. I do not envy the note taker! But then, it was also filmed so presumably it can be a big effort to make the notes match the reality. I doubt the film will be made available. Probably cite data protection!
		
Click to expand...

I totally agree re the perception of things being covered up, and where that is the case who can blame people for wanting to raise their concerns? 

Oh yes - data protection is the new H & S...


----------



## Velcrobum (13 January 2019)

Red-1 said:



			It seems some of the concerns are about inefficiency then. The trouble is that if people have been upset from some perceived wrongdoing, when it is compounded by inefficiency it can look like information has been deliberately covered up.

The minutes (or 'notes' as they seem to now be referred to) will make interesting reading. I do not envy the note taker! But then, it was also filmed so presumably it can be a big effort to make the notes match the reality. I doubt the film will be made available. Probably cite data protection!
		
Click to expand...

The chair at the start of proceedings stated that the meeting was being filmed "so that people unable to attend would be able to see and hear what was discussed and that the subsequent members meeting would not be filmed". As I put in an earlier post he also stated that MINUTES were being taken. I did not take extensive notes however others did. As others have said there were more very valid questions than answers in both meetings. Many of the questions coming from ex members of the board and these people know a darn sight more about BHS than most of us!!


----------



## Violettears (13 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			Please join our facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/groups/membersBHS/about/

Its not for slagging people off, or personal attacks, its for exchange of information, a central point for public documents that maybe you would like to see. So that you can form your own opinion.

We are also looking for insights in to why the focus appears to have changed. I am trying to obtain a full copy of the  BHS Strategic Plan
The BHS Trust Board are not communicating with members, so we are trying to fill the gap.
It was apparent from the meeting that a lot of the members there, that they and the members they represented been unhappy for a while in how the BHS treats its membership.
You may have that piece of information that helps for the picture of how this happened. Even if you are non BHS member you may have insights in accounts, and previous work with charities, including sports and animal charities,could give ideas for best practice.
		
Click to expand...

Nice sentiments, but already this FB page has become personal and as you put it â€˜slagging people offâ€™. It is obvious it is for some self serving individuals who are on a Sour Grapes crusade. Why donâ€™t the admins jump on the abusive comments. It has already lost it credibility. Good idea but it is now a shouting platform for people who have a personal axe to grind IMO...


----------



## PAK (13 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			Nice sentiments, but already this FB page has become personal and as you put it â€˜slagging people offâ€™. It is obvious it is for some self serving individuals who are on a Sour Grapes crusade. Why donâ€™t the admins jump on the abusive comments. It has already lost it credibility. Good idea but it is now a shouting platform for people who have a personal axe to grind IMO...
		
Click to expand...

Hmm. Your comments seem a bit sour to me


----------



## honetpot (13 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			Nice sentiments, but already this FB page has become personal and as you put it â€˜slagging people offâ€™. It is obvious it is for some self serving individuals who are on a Sour Grapes crusade. Why donâ€™t the admins jump on the abusive comments. It has already lost it credibility. Good idea but it is now a shouting platform for people who have a personal axe to grind IMO...
		
Click to expand...

   Where people feel there is injustice, emotions do get inflamed. I think the person you mention is more concerned about how other people have been treated than themselves.

The Employment Tribunal findings of last year, that found in  favour of the complainant , and cost the BHS a substantial amount of money, show that there is a HR  and management culture with of lack of understanding of human resource management.
  I seen nothing to show that they have learned from their mistakes, and there has been yet another case being decided on.

  The way they have dealt with the membership before, during and after the meeting, to put forward the proposed changes shows scant respect for the membership. I went to the meeting to ask questions and left wondering what happened, to something I had been a member for 40 years of, for it to have gone so wrong.

I accept your opinion, but can not agree with you.
 I have attached the Employment Tribunal  file, if anyone would like to read it.


----------



## PAK (13 January 2019)

Support this 100%.


----------



## Chica (13 January 2019)

I totally back this .


----------



## Violettears (13 January 2019)

PAK said:



			Hmm. Your comments seem a bit sour to me
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚


----------



## Violettears (13 January 2019)

Blazingsaddles said:



			Please expand. Why has the BHS gone up in your estimations in the past few years?
		
Click to expand...

Hi Blazing Saddles, see Palimono Dreams comments, the bridleways work is tremendous, the education stuff is new and exciting, long overdue, I saw the new lorry at Badminton and Blenheim, way to go, and the road safety stuff is at last doing good, working with the police and driving instructors, you only have to read H and H to see they are doing something neatly every week. Brilliant stuff... we had one of their road awareness evenings near me, if this is the new bhs then Iâ€™m very happy with the way they spend my membership money. I know change is difficult to accept sometimes but get with it guys.


----------



## ester (13 January 2019)

What was good about the lorry at badminton and Blenheim? I saw it at the latter but there was just a group of people sat outside it, what did I miss?


----------



## honetpot (13 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			Hi Blazing Saddles, see Palimono Dreams comments, the bridleways work is tremendous, the education stuff is new and exciting, long overdue, I saw the new lorry at Badminton and Blenheim, way to go, and the road safety stuff is at last doing good, working with the police and driving instructors, you only have to read H and H to see they are doing something neatly every week. Brilliant stuff... we had one of their road awareness evenings near me, if this is the new bhs then Iâ€™m very happy with the way they spend my membership money. I know change is difficult to accept sometimes but get with it guys.
		
Click to expand...

Its still uncertain what the lorry is being to be used for. If its a classroom its cheaper to hire a hall.
 Its a commercial HGV and will have regular servicing, more often than a private use HGV lorry, depending on the mileage done. There is no costing's the  budget for this or driver.

Bridleways, well the Bridleways groups, say they are unsupported by the BHS and are being approached by councils themselves, so they are attending meeting.
Le Trec dropped away, because if felt unsupported.

Its not about stopping change, its about spending what you have wisely.

Over Â£1m on an IT system last year that does not seem to send emails to all the members with email addresses logged.
Volunteers are used so effectively in the charity sector, yet BHS volunteers feel under valued. They are the bodies on the ground that clear the bridleways and go out to support people with welfare.
 You are reading the headlines but on the ground, its not that rosy.


----------



## ViolettaTears (13 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			Nice sentiments, but already this FB page has become personal and as you put it â€˜slagging people offâ€™. It is obvious it is for some self serving individuals who are on a Sour Grapes crusade. Why donâ€™t the admins jump on the abusive comments. It has already lost it credibility. Good idea but it is now a shouting platform for people who have a personal axe to grind IMO...
		
Click to expand...

Hi there - new on today - felt


Violettears said:



			Nice sentiments, but already this FB page has become personal and as you put it â€˜slagging people offâ€™. It is obvious it is for some self serving individuals who are on a Sour Grapes crusade. Why donâ€™t the admins jump on the abusive comments. It has already lost it credibility. Good idea but it is now a shouting platform for people who have a personal axe to grind IMO...
		
Click to expand...

Evening All ! New on here, but been a member of the BHS for 22 years and reading this stuff by Violettears has got me riled. I was at the meeting and it was a car crash from start to finish and not because of the people who had taken the time and been brave enough to turn up to challenge the chairman and the trustees! We live in a democracy and despite the room being filled with at least 30 plus staff and trustees the vote was massively in favour to adjourn - quite rightly! Just think about it - if everything was as rosy as you seem to think it is, would people really complain?! No of course not.... The biggest sadness I have is how far down the pecking order the focus on welfare (World Horse Welfare have just declared we are in a state of a national emergency of horses being dumped) is ... what do the BHS do, just castration clinics! Not enough. Oh and another thing - its obvious the AMERICAN CEO doesn't give a stuff about our BRITISH (as in BHS) Countryside with a massively under resourced Bridleway Department .... one things for sure BHS Board - the membership will not be silenced !


----------



## ViolettaTears (13 January 2019)

ester said:



			What was good about the lorry at badminton and Blenheim? I saw it at the latter but there was just a group of people sat outside it, what did I miss?
		
Click to expand...

YEP - Costs a bloody fortune and it's a complete white elephant .... And isn't the driver the husband of one of the staff members ??? Nothing like a bit of cronyism to add into the mix .... Of course I'm sure the erstwhile 'Highly Regarded" (I joke) AKA HR department oversaw a completely fair and transparent employment process .... a bit like the one for the former trustee, now turned up as a permanent, paid member of staff ... am I being cynical or missing something??



Violettears said:



			Hi Blazing Saddles, see Palimono Dreams comments, the bridleways work is tremendous, the education stuff is new and exciting, long overdue, I saw the new lorry at Badminton and Blenheim, way to go, and the road safety stuff is at last doing good, working with the police and driving instructors, you only have to read H and H to see they are doing something neatly every week. Brilliant stuff... we had one of their road awareness evenings near me, if this is the new bhs then Iâ€™m very happy with the way they spend my membership money. I know change is difficult to accept sometimes but get with it guys.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Zebedee (13 January 2019)

Ok....Violetta Tears - odd to choose a name so similar to another user - especially one whose opinion you seem to strongly disagree with? Would you mind saying why you've done that> Makes for confusing reading at first glance.


----------



## Violettears (13 January 2019)

Zebedee said:



			Ok....Violetta Tears - odd to choose a name so similar to another user - especially one whose opinion you seem to strongly disagree with? Would you mind saying why you've done that> Makes for confusing reading at first glance.
		
Click to expand...

Hi Zebedee, was thinking the same thing... why choose my name, nearly?? And whoever Violeta Tears is, they have just got personal, and once again lose your arguments points. Why do you put up with such blatant anger and inability to stay calm. Unfortunately this just serves to highlight mine and Palimino Dreams observations about some of the people who are running a personal agenda. Sorry but there it is, I rest my case!


----------



## onemoretime (13 January 2019)

ester said:



			What was good about the lorry at badminton and Blenheim? I saw it at the latter but there was just a group of people sat outside it, what did I miss?
		
Click to expand...

I agree with you Ester, I saw the lorry at Badminton, we could not go in it just as you say, a group of people sitting outside.  This lorry has cost a great deal of members money and has to have a pid driver each time it goes out.  S Gazebo and a few chairs would do the same!


----------



## Blazingsaddles (13 January 2019)

Zebedee said:



			Ok....Violetta Tears - odd to choose a name so similar to another user - especially one whose opinion you seem to strongly disagree with? Would you mind saying why you've done that> Makes for confusing reading at first glance.
		
Click to expand...

I feel like Iâ€™m in a parallel universe.  Very odd.


----------



## ester (13 January 2019)

IIRC they had various boards up in the gazebos so no need for the lorry. 

It also seemed a shame it was positioned at the top of the hill on the quiet bit of the course spectator wise, if you weren't physically fit enough to get up that hill you wouldn't have seen it at all.


----------



## ester (13 January 2019)

Can we sort out the spelling of palomino please, it's driving me a bit loopy, thanks!


----------



## Zebedee (13 January 2019)

ester said:



			Can we sort out the spelling of palomino please, it's driving me a bit loopy, thanks! 

Click to expand...

Typo? Try and avert your eyes - new user might not know how to edit


----------



## Chica (13 January 2019)

Why can't we be passionate in our debate and still be accepted as having a valid opinion . You see as I have said before maybe before Palomino Dream and Violetta Tears joined I like a two sided debate as that is what a debate is ! In addition they're  invariable a little heated and at times can become personal . That is what passion does . I'm really driven by horse welfare and traning to promote horse welfare good horse care and horse sensitive schooling / horse training . I can get a little wound up when I hear of all the financial waste that is being promoted by our Board and CEO . More could be done if they looked more closely at the expenditure . I want the Board to be more challenging of the CEO and very large leadership team and insist on digging down further into the questions that we are raising . I want the BHS to prosper and to do an even better job on behalf of horses .


----------



## IMF (14 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			The chair stated at the start of proceedings that the meeting would be minuted and introduced a lady who was sitting in the corner of the room behind the CEO. I didn't write her name down.
		
Click to expand...

The lady who took the meeting minutes was Georgina - I believe Lynn Petersen's PA


----------



## IMF (14 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			Can anyone point me to where all the BHS managers/Department Heads are listed as for the life of I cannot find this info on the Website!!
		
Click to expand...

No I cant find this either - nor a list of the current trustees  and their alignment- must be there somewhere but well hidden.


----------



## Chica (14 January 2019)

It is very important that we keep pushing for answers to our questions and that we are not put off by those who say we are  self interested  or personal in our views . The only way to get things changed is to challenge . It is okay too to say what is going well and I do think the BHS does some very good stuff if it did not then I would not bother to fight for it as strongly as I'm .


----------



## IMF (14 January 2019)

Caught up on this thread last night - interesting not many have agreed / supported the  few individuals with personal agendas posting?


----------



## OldNag (14 January 2019)

Just received a letter from the BHS dated Friday. Looks like they have written to everyone who attended, or who sent a proxy.  It explains about why the General Meeting was adjourned, and that the notes from the General Meeting will be published "in due course".


----------



## JanetGeorge (14 January 2019)

OldNag said:



			Just received a letter from the BHS dated Friday. Looks like they have written to everyone who attended, or who sent a proxy.  It explains about why the General Meeting was adjourned, and that the notes from the General Meeting will be published "in due course".
		
Click to expand...

lol, yes - creative writing takes time.


----------



## D66 (14 January 2019)

IMF said:



			Caught up on this thread last night - interesting not many have agreed / supported the  few individuals with personal agendas posting?
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™m following with interest - having been alerted to the issues, ie poor HR practice, muddles over membership, communication and finance I am happy for those with more involvement to lead a movement to challenge the current officials. 
Where else do we get our information from?  The magazine only ever gives a positive spin on th BHS.  I donâ€™t compete or even regularly meet up with other BHS members but I am interested in ensuring that a charity I help to fund behaves in a proper manner. 
Increasing the EGM calling group to a percentage of total membership would be a more credible notion if BHS HQ could quickly, confidently and accurately report the total number.
There seem to be a lot of directors but who is actually doing the work?

Iâ€™ll carry on following quietly. Please donâ€™t think I donâ€™t care whatâ€™s happening.


----------



## honetpot (14 January 2019)

If you haven't join the FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/membersBHS/about/

It has documents a lot that are in the public domain, that are all in one place.
I was a member that attended the meeting just to find out what was going on and found out its a shambles.

The are using GDPR regulations, despite spending Â£1.4m on IT last year, to prevent members contacting other members, no chance to opt in for emails for local groups.

So its the only place for people to post their concerns, local and national.


----------



## D66 (14 January 2019)

I have.


----------



## Velcrobum (14 January 2019)

As a member I am concerned about various expenditures that BHS has made

1 Compensation for unfair dismissal with a second case being heard.

2 The cost of the large HGV and its associated running costs. This is a huge white elephant Â£165k is an awful lot of venue rentals for educational meetings and promotional meetings.

3 The lack of support for Bridleways volunteers with the Insurance price hike. 

4 Compensation with gagging orders for staff booted or forced out.

5 Cost of the puppet which I have never seen despite attending Badminton and Blenheim for the whole of the events.

It also concerns me that long standing volunteer groups have resigned or stepped away from volunteering. I have been a member of BHS for close to 30years and am concerned about some of the things that have happened in recent years. Yes BHS is doing good work, yes it lobbies well, yes the road safety campaign is a good one, however the welfare side seems to have been overtaken by various other charities. World horse welfare seems to be coming far more prominent on that side of things.

The number of BHS approved Livery yards and Riding Schools has gone down a lot why is this happening??


----------



## honetpot (14 January 2019)

I depends what you call a personal agenda.

When a long standing volunteer of great experience feel forced to leave because of BHS employee comments, well it makes me want to cry, but perhaps I'm soft.

I will try and explain how the Trust Board is made up, I didn't really really know till last week.

So no members of the Trust Board are directly voted on by the members.
They are put they apply for the space on the Board, then there is an interview process made up of thee people, two who already Board members, who can turn you down, how ever good candidate you could be. Which is fair enough if there is someone else better.

But the Trust Board can co-opt people in on to the Board, who do not have to be BHS members. They may have skills which is great but you could have an imbalance of one type of person. Which I think, and this only my opinion is marketing, at the moment.
The changes proposed make this possibility more likely

The 'self interest' at the meeting, was asking why someone who had won Scottish Business Women of the Year, and a horsewomen, had put herself forward for a post, had been turned down. I think her friends were more incensed than she was. Could her skills not have been co-opted in, or as they do in some roles, trained up for the post. Can the BHS afford to pass over this sort of person, when they say they have had trouble attracting trustees?

I am not an ex employee, I am not a failed candidate, I am just someone who has looked at all the evidence I could find from the internet and looking at the Stratgeic Plan and its going somewhere most people would never think of.
Do we really want to go to China and India, its seen as raising money, when we have very young foals dumped.


----------



## Velcrobum (14 January 2019)

I am very curious as to when the nominations committee came into being? The chair stated this was nothing new so when did the opportunity to effectively blackball genuine applicants come into the constitution/articles ????


----------



## honetpot (14 January 2019)

I am not sure. I think the AGM's were lost in 2009, because so few people were attending. In my reply I was told because the do hold AGM, they do not have to supply accounts or minutes of meeting. We fell asleep at the wheel folks. As BHS employees who are members can also vote, HO staff could push through anything normally anyway. ' there is no conflict of interest',


I suppose this would not matter as much if the BHS headquarters made us aware of what was going on, but they did not replace the AGM with anything else, only the British Horse which is more a PR mag. Until the meeting on the 5th no one really new how bad it was, when lots of senior, in age and experience, were raising the same issues.

  I think the outcome of this at least Board member should be directly elected by members, as a conduit for receiving an passing information as raising issues at Board level. This should be a non-interviewed post and the only remit, communication with staff.

  They are using GDPR as a way of filtering information, emails have to be actioned by Regional office.  
Some of the members have had emails about the Meeting, but not others, even if they had a proxy vote. There are 40k ish email addresses missing


----------



## Palomino Dream (14 January 2019)

Zebedee said:



			BRC MEMBERS ARE NOT VOTING MEMBERS OF THE BHS UNLESS THEY ARE ALSO BHS MEMBERS.

They are also NOT included in the BHS membership numbers.  Sorry to appear shouting, but it's important that this is clearly understood.
		
Click to expand...

I thought that answer was very clear at the 5th Jan meeting. My friend is a member of BRC but had to join BHS separately. She has said though that some BRC members aren't clear about the need to join separately. She definitely got the email and insert about the meeting but couldn't attend.


----------



## Chica (14 January 2019)

In my view BHS has made scant little effort to engage or inform its membership . At the meeting the board was very  unclear in its answers to questions which is why the adjournment vote was tabled not because it was a positive meeting as suggested in the letter which I received today . It did make me smile ! Good effort David but unfortunately there is now a growing number of us who have grown wise to BHS style smoke and mirrors .


----------



## OldNag (15 January 2019)

Chica said:



			In my view BHS has made scant little effort to engage or inform its membership . At the meeting the board was very  unclear in its answers to questions which is why the adjournment vote was tabled not because it was a positive meeting as suggested in the letter which I received today . It did make me smile ! Good effort David but unfortunately there is now a growing number of us who have grown wise to BHS style smoke and mirrors .
		
Click to expand...

I did wonder, when I read the letter, how accurate it was.


----------



## Velcrobum (15 January 2019)

I await my letter with interest!!!


----------



## honetpot (15 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			I await my letter with interest!!!
		
Click to expand...

Just make sure your on the mailing list, some have had it, some not, ring membership, to check they have your email address.


----------



## Chica (15 January 2019)

Velcrobum you can have my letter it was no use to me !!!!


----------



## rabatsa (15 January 2019)

I have had neither letter or emails from the BHS although I did send them my voting proxy by recorded delivery and it was recieved/signed for.


----------



## PAK (15 January 2019)

Chica said:



			Why can't we be passionate in our debate and still be accepted as having a valid opinion . You see as I have said before maybe before Palomino Dream and Violetta Tears joined I like a two sided debate as that is what a debate is ! In addition they're  invariable a little heated and at times can become personal . That is what passion does . I'm really driven by horse welfare and traning to promote horse welfare good horse care and horse sensitive schooling / horse training . I can get a little wound up when I hear of all the financial waste that is being promoted by our Board and CEO . More could be done if they looked more closely at the expenditure . I want the Board to be more challenging of the CEO and very large leadership team and insist on digging down further into the questions that we are raising . I want the BHS to prosper and to do an even better job on behalf of horses .
		
Click to expand...

Well said Chica.


----------



## Velcrobum (15 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			Just make sure your on the mailing list, some have had it, some not, ring membership, to check they have your email address.
		
Click to expand...

They certainly have my email as they have emailed things to me before and they replied to my email stating I was attending the meeting. Was the letter emailed or snail mailed??


----------



## PAK (15 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			I depends what you call a personal agenda.

When a long standing volunteer of great experience feel forced to leave because of BHS employee comments, well it makes me want to cry, but perhaps I'm soft.

I will try and explain how the Trust Board is made up, I didn't really really know till last week.

So no members of the Trust Board are directly voted on by the members.
They are put they apply for the space on the Board, then there is an interview process made up of thee people, two who already Board members, who can turn you down, how ever good candidate you could be. Which is fair enough if there is someone else better.

But the Trust Board can co-opt people in on to the Board, who do not have to be BHS members. They may have skills which is great but you could have an imbalance of one type of person. Which I think, and this only my opinion is marketing, at the moment.
The changes proposed make this possibility more likely

The 'self interest' at the meeting, was asking why someone who had won Scottish Business Women of the Year, and a horsewomen, had put herself forward for a post, had been turned down. I think her friends were more incensed than she was. Could her skills not have been co-opted in, or as they do in some roles, trained up for the post. Can the BHS afford to pass over this sort of person, when they say they have had trouble attracting trustees?

I am not an ex employee, I am not a failed candidate, I am just someone who has looked at all the evidence I could find from the internet and looking at the Stratgeic Plan and its going somewhere most people would never think of.
Do we really want to go to China and India, its seen as raising money, when we have very young foals dumped.
		
Click to expand...

The rationale for China & India & soon the USA - profit. Well there's lots of ways to make profit but these don't fit with our core purpose, our values, or our status as a British Charity.


----------



## honetpot (15 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			They certainly have my email as they have emailed things to me before and they replied to my email stating I was attending the meeting. Was the letter emailed or snail mailed??
		
Click to expand...

 I got mine by email, almost straight away.
Its not a real account of the meeting, its spin.I will copy and paste it for you in pm.


----------



## PAK (15 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			I got mine by email, almost straight away.
Its not a real account of the meeting, its spin.I will copy and paste it for you in pm.
		
Click to expand...

Ws that the one that said the meeting was positive?


----------



## Velcrobum (15 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			I got mine by email, almost straight away.
Its not a real account of the meeting, its spin.I will copy and paste it for you in pm.
		
Click to expand...

Is it the letter posted on the Facebook page entitled "Response from the Trustees" from the chair?? If so I have a copy. I will be asking HQ why as a meeting attendee I was not sent the email!!

 Anyone any idea when the minutes now renamed notes are going to be available???


----------



## honetpot (15 January 2019)

They are called notes as. apparently it was not a meeting, I kid you not. 
I have it is black and white, they do not have AGM, so they do not have to give out minutes or Treasurers accounts. It gets worse.


----------



## Velcrobum (15 January 2019)

rabatsa said:



			I have had neither letter or emails from the BHS although I did send them my voting proxy by recorded delivery and it was recieved/signed for.
		
Click to expand...

 According to the above mentioned letter you as a proxy voter should have been sent an email with aforementioned letter. It has subsequently emerged that apparently BHS disallowed many of the proxy votes held by members attending the meeting in person !!!!!!


----------



## onemoretime (15 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			According to the above mentioned letter you as a proxy voter should have been sent an email with aforementioned letter. It has subsequently emerged that apparently BHS disallowed many of the proxy votes held by members attending the meeting in person !!!!!!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## PAK (15 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			Is it the letter posted on the Facebook page entitled "Response from the Trustees" from the chair?? If so I have a copy. I will be asking HQ why as a meeting attendee I was not sent the email!!

Anyone any idea when the minutes now renamed notes are going to be available???
		
Click to expand...

No idea what so ever.


----------



## Violettears (15 January 2019)

PAK said:



			The rationale for China & India & soon the USA - profit. Well there's lots of ways to make profit but these don't fit with our core purpose, our values, or our status as a British Charity.
		
Click to expand...

Come on PAK, if the BHS are expanding in order to create growth and more funds, and use these funds to promote horse welfare, safety, access and education in the UK and elsewhere in the world together with other partners, that has to be a good thing. I can not believe that you donâ€™t support that! I have asked the BHS for an up to date membership figure, over 104,000. That is brilliant growth over the last few years I think, lots of supporters. They are doing a great job.... modern, proactive, and a real mover and shaker in the equine world, UK and abroad. There is too much conjecture, rumour and innuendo at work here, trying to stifle it. I still think this is too personal and the bigger picture seems to have been lost..... of course there may be items to be addressed, there always are, but please acknowledge some of the great work that they are doing rather than knock, knock, knock. You may get more support that way.


----------



## PAK (15 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			Come on PAK, if the BHS are expanding in order to create growth and more funds, and use these funds to promote horse welfare, safety, access and education in the UK and elsewhere in the world together with other partners, that has to be a good thing. I can not believe that you donâ€™t support that! I have asked the BHS for an up to date membership figure, over 104,000. That is brilliant growth over the last few years I think, lots of supporters. They are doing a great job.... modern, proactive, and a real mover and shaker in the equine world, UK and abroad. There is too much conjecture, rumour and innuendo at work here, trying to stifle it. I still think this is too personal and the bigger picture seems to have been lost..... of course there may be items to be addressed, there always are, but please acknowledge some of the great work that they are doing rather than knock, knock, knock. You may get more support that way.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry V - I don't support expansion into countries with clear track records of human and animal cruelty. I don't place profit above living creatures. And I have a large file of facts, not conjecture, to back up my statements. Your statements, in my humble opinion, seem rather non specific and are primarily judgemental adjectives.


----------



## JanetGeorge (15 January 2019)

Violettears, you have been a member here for less than a week - and already an expert on what should be said by whom.   
One DOES have to wonder ......


----------



## Goldenstar (15 January 2019)

Personally I have no problem with taking the BHS abroad to raise funds if itâ€™s done in a financially sound way and it can be done without compromising the BHS ethics .


----------



## ester (15 January 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			According to the above mentioned letter you as a proxy voter should have been sent an email with aforementioned letter. It has subsequently emerged that apparently BHS disallowed many of the proxy votes held by members attending the meeting in person !!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

on what basis?


----------



## Chica (15 January 2019)

BHS really need to improve on many fronts . I advise it starts with addressing it's perceived lack of openness and honesty with its members . In short drop the spin and push for genuine engagement using modern methods perhaps like social media or an interactive members portal on the website . Make some real effort to update  members email addresses , currently they only have 67 thousand member email addresses . Use the new strategy as a PR doc as it looks great but says very little . Ask the membership what they think  should be included in the actual working strategy which could have the effect of gaining bye in .I want to see spending money wisely having pride of place in the  actual strategy.


----------



## Suechoccy (15 January 2019)

When I submitted my proxy vote (by email), I received an email response from the BHS acknowledging receipt of my proxy so they definitely have my email and I am a paid-up gold member.
However I have not received the letter-sent-to-all-members yet, email or snailmail, informing me of the outcome of the meeting.


----------



## honetpot (15 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			Come on PAK, if the BHS are expanding in order to create growth and more funds, and use these funds to promote horse welfare, safety, access and education in the UK and elsewhere in the world together with other partners, that has to be a good thing. I can not believe that you donâ€™t support that! I have asked the BHS for an up to date membership figure, over 104,000. That is brilliant growth over the last few years I think, lots of supporters. They are doing a great job.... modern, proactive, and a real mover and shaker in the equine world, UK and abroad. There is too much conjecture, rumour and innuendo at work here, trying to stifle it. I still think this is too personal and the bigger picture seems to have been lost..... of course there may be items to be addressed, there always are, but please acknowledge some of the great work that they are doing rather than knock, knock, knock. You may get more support that way.
		
Click to expand...

I think no one is trying to stifle moving and shaking, its just where they moving to and who they are leaving behind. Which seems a lot of the workers on the ground who actually to the clearing bridleways, attending welfare cases etc, all in their own time.

Lets not forget they are paid to do a job, which to promote the charities aims. If the selling qualifications to China makes money all well and good but I was part of a charity that tried doing this and believe me the Chinese are not a soft touch, they like a good deal. They like brands, they will buy the brand for so long, and then say we can do this better. They are the worlds greatest copiers.
There is no conjecture, no rumour but actual evidence, if you care to read it, its only personal because contain information about people.

So lets acknowledge all the people that have worked so hard for so many years, who have not drawn attention to themselves, and maybe that's the problem, they were so busy doing they didn't tell people how good they were.

If out of your Â£69 Gold membership, Â£10 of it is insurance costs, what do you want your Â£59 spent on. For most people asked its not expansion in to China and India.
 Large successful companies invest in people, training and provide a supportive environment for their workers. They tell their shareholders how their money is spent, or they do not get investment and their shares go down. The biggest source of revenue for the BHS is their membership, its in the books, what accounts there are.
There are now no AGM's so they say they do not have to give there members accounts, they do not have to tell them how and why the money is spent and how decisions are made. In fact they are not talking or listening to members, who are shareholders at all. When we want to know what's happening and we are seen as the problem? That's no way to treat your shareholder, or they will go else where.

The members that are fighting to be heard are asking what is happening? I have been a member for about forty years, I have paid my subs for a least 20, even though I have other insurance, thinking, it now appears I am wrong, it was to help people who work for horse welfare, access and safety in this country. A very small proportion of this seems to have has gone on that, relative to the total spending. 
The old are a far larger demographic than the young, we have more disposable income and creatures of habit, so as we shuffle off we have to be replaced by the young, and there are not enough of them, and horses are an extra  less of them may be able to have, hence the crutch of new markets and China. The trouble is enough of us oldies take our money elsewhere the crunch will happen far quicker, do you really want that to happen?
For the sake of openness, transparency and accountability, all things we expect from other providers is our life from electricity to gym membership, is that really so much to ask?


----------



## Violettears (16 January 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



Violettears, you have been a member here for less than a week - and already an expert on what should be said by whom. 
One DOES have to wonder ......
		
Click to expand...

indeed...One does have to wonder why you have a personal agenda and do not acknowledge some of the great work volunteers, members and staff at BHS have and are doing!


----------



## Chica (16 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			I think no one is trying to stifle moving and shaking, its just where they moving to and who they are leaving behind. Which seems a lot of the workers on the ground who actually to the clearing bridleways, attending welfare cases etc, all in their own time.

Lets not forget they are paid to do a job, which to promote the charities aims. If the selling qualifications to China makes money all well and good but I was part of a charity that tried doing this and believe me the Chinese are not a soft touch, they like a good deal. They like brands, they will buy the brand for so long, and then say we can do this better. They are the worlds greatest copiers.
There is no conjecture, no rumour but actual evidence, if you care to read it, its only personal because contain information about people.

So lets acknowledge all the people that have worked so hard for so many years, who have not drawn attention to themselves, and maybe that's the problem, they were so busy doing they didn't tell people how good they were.

If out of your Â£69 Gold membership, Â£10 of it is insurance costs, what do you want your Â£59 spent on. For most people asked its not expansion in to China and India.
Large successful companies invest in people, training and provide a supportive environment for their workers. They tell their shareholders how their money is spent, or they do not get investment and their shares go down. The biggest source of revenue for the BHS is their membership, its in the books, what accounts there are.
There are now no AGM's so they say they do not have to give there members accounts, they do not have to tell them how and why the money is spent and how decisions are made. In fact they are not talking or listening to members, who are shareholders at all. When we want to know what's happening and we are seen as the problem? That's no way to treat your shareholder, or they will go else where.

The members that are fighting to be heard are asking what is happening? I have been a member for about forty years, I have paid my subs for a least 20, even though I have other insurance, thinking, it now appears I am wrong, it was to help people who work for horse welfare, access and safety in this country. A very small proportion of this seems to have has gone on that, relative to the total spending.
The old are a far larger demographic than the young, we have more disposable income and creatures of habit, so as we shuffle off we have to be replaced by the young, and there are not enough of them, and horses are an extra  less of them may be able to have, hence the crutch of new markets and China. The trouble is enough of us oldies take our money elsewhere the crunch will happen far quicker, do you really want that to happen?
For the sake of openness, transparency and accountability, all things we expect from other providers is our life from electricity to gym membership, is that really so much to ask?
		
Click to expand...

Thank for this well thought out contribution. . I totally agree .


----------



## Chica (16 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			indeed...One does have to wonder why you have a personal agenda and do not acknowledge some of the great work volunteers, members and staff at BHS have and are doing!
		
Click to expand...

I think we will have to agree to disagree on your reocurring theme regarding the negativity of personal threads and personal statements.  The BHS are not listening and are not reaching out to organise improved open communication so as you see a group of determined enthusiast's are making sure thiers views are shared . Well done all .  Come up BHS get your act together we are crying out for this .


----------



## Velcrobum (16 January 2019)

ester said:



			on what basis?
		
Click to expand...

Thus far I do not know but this information came from an ex trustee who was holding proxy votes some of which BHS then deemed  invalid. At present I do not have any more details.


----------



## Art Nouveau (16 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			Come on PAK, if the BHS are expanding in order to create growth and more funds, and use these funds to promote horse welfare, safety, access and education in the UK and elsewhere in the world together with other partners, that has to be a good thing. I can not believe that you donâ€™t support that!
		
Click to expand...

I don't think it's a good thing for the BHS and I don't support it. World Horse Welfare already exists and I don't think charities should step so far outside their own reasons for existence, and duplicate work that is better done by a charity that has the experience and the mandate for work in that area. It's a waste of effort and resources, and muddies the waters of where member payments and donations are going.
When I want to support British horses and the British riding industry, I want to see an organisation that focuses on that. When I want to support world horse welfare, I'll support the organisation with that name.


----------



## sywell (16 January 2019)

World Horse Welfare is often mentioned and in November I was present at the WBFSH AGM nad Roly Ewers did his presentation on the Social Contract the horse worls has with the general population and it was an excellent presentation and in the working group on welfare Chaired by Roly it was interesting to hear the Canadians complaining about the amount of restrictive tack and others about the lack of ability of riders. I was so interested I forgot to mention obesity in the UK. Also at the working group was the organiser of WEG at Tryon who says that horse events have to provide activities for all members of the family on their day out so his daughters can do their horses and he can play golf but of course he has 100 million pounds of investment. Not particularly relevant to this post but we do need to look outside the box and get all horse organisation working under one roof which happened 40 years ago with the BHS or was it 50.


----------



## D66 (16 January 2019)

I'd like to see the BHS communicating with their membership and acting on feedback. 
A central aim IMO should be to campaign for a single PIO and database of horse identity in the UK, with sanctions for owners who don't comply.  
Staff and volunteers may be well intentioned and working hard but the strategy and direction given by management should rightly be scrutinised by the membership.

VT  What evidence do you have for the BHS being "modern"?  To me they seem unbelievably old fashioned and stuffy.  Do you really think as your posts imply that there is no possible room for improvement?


----------



## JanetGeorge (16 January 2019)

Everyone who is still in the dark about what happened at the meeting, should read this - thoroughly.  And any of your friends who are BHS Members should see it too.


Notes: on the General Meeting and strategy presentation by The British Horse Society board on the 5th January 2019
From Bob Milton gold member 263474

Dear All BHS members
The General Meeting was called to vote on a special resolution of the board to change a number of clauses of the Articles of Association of The British Horse society being a private limited company by guarantee without share capital and with charitable aims. It should be pointed out that the notice refers to The British Horse Society Constitution which does not exist

Prior to the meeting, which was attended by 105 voting members [see below for details] two thing happened:

Many of the proxy votes held by attending members were found to have been disallowed. This it seems was despite many of the proxies having been assured by phone or email that they would be accepted. Four of these were mine. Two because the posted forms were not validated until the 4th January with post marks in December. Two others which were on time and sent by email used electronic signature. Any thoughts on this point should be sent to the Company Secretary.
A letter of â€˜no confidenceâ€™ in the board, properly signed within the present Article of Association of the company incorporated in July 2016. This was accepted by the Chief Executive and the meeting was opened without anything further said by the Chairman
The Chairman opened the meeting and members of the board spoke to a presentation of the salient changes of the â€˜Constitutionâ€™. There were questions raised both during the presentation and the open question period. Minutes were recorded as well as filming of sessions.
In no particular order the questions and issues raised were;

Was this a general meeting in relation to a special resolution terms defined in the Companyâ€™s Act 2008 for changing the Articles of Association [ie 75% of members to vote in favour]. The Chairman responded that this was not such a special resolution but a written resolution, so a simple majority would apply. The calling papers do refer to the proposals as being a â€˜special resolutionâ€™.
There were quite a number of questions and concerns raised about the proposed format of the new board how that might be abused in the future.
The potential for abuse was particularly aimed at the nominations committee in that it was seen to be biased, capable of manipulation and not independent or transparent.
The Fellows raised concerns following an explanation that their involvement in the nominations committee was only advisory and not as they had understood.
The issue of employees who were also members of The Society was raised after a substantial number entered the room just before the proposed vote. It was felt by a number of remarks made that this was not quite right as there could be a conflict of interest
The ability of the chairman who is coming to the end of his six-year tenure to be re-appointed for another six years was confirmed to be the case under the proposed changes and was not well received in the room.
The amalgamation of all the changes into one resolution was not well received by several members who wanted each article dealt with individually
This disquiet and animosity within what seemed a substantial portion of the room prompted me to act.
At the point when the Chairman was about to call for a vote and the employee members had entered the room, I got up to speak. I expressed in strong terms about the potential for abuse inherent in the proposed changes to the Articles of Association as well the issues raised by the floor which the Chairman had already agreed to seek clarification but had put to one side in seeking to get the resolution voted on. I had previously on the 27th December met with the Chairman and expressed my concerns which had been expounded on by the floor up to this point.
For the reasons set out above I invoked Article 25.6 and called for a vote to adjourn the meeting with a request that the board take notice of the floor and the members, withdraw the special resolution and enter into dialogue with members.
After much coming and goings with staff and the independent observer a poll was demanded and taken. No proxies being allowed even those that were general/open.
The voting having been checked by the independent observer was61 for the motion and 44 against. The meeting was closed. No date for reconvening was given.
On a personal basis I an extremely cautious of the reasons given by the Board relating to Sport England and the Charity Commission. Before supporting such major changes to our Articles of Association I would need written evidence from both of these bodies that they have required such changes and why.
The afternoon continued with a presentation of the strategy document for the next ten years. I have set out below my questions and/or comments on the *12 Areas of focus* published in the document.
1.Public launch of our recreational qualification- Challenge Awards
Q. What is the definition of â€˜recreational qualifications â€˜and are they UKAS registered?
2.Increase participation through British Riding Clubs, Approved Centre and Changing lives.
Q. The legal position of British riding clubs and members seems still to be unresolved.
3.Launch a bridleways project in partnership with strategic partners (funding permitted).
            Q. Funding from who, for what and by whom?
4.Revise our membership proposition and invest in new proposition development.
            Q. Why and for whom
5.Develop a riding centre model which integrates education and membership
6.Further develop our effective lobbying resources
            Q. What does this mean?
7.Increase voluntary income from fundraising
            Q. Is this supposed to be self-financing, if so by when?
8. Expand The British Horse Society -International
Q. Which part of the BHS and should this be done as a separate company wholly owned by the BHS. What are the tax ramifications?
9. Review regional governance and structure
            Q. what is wrong with what we have?
10. Obtain UKAS accreditation.
            Q. Seems to have been a â€˜focusâ€™ for many years.
11. Champion key campaigns
            Q. what constitutes â€˜a key campaignâ€™.
12. Invest in the marketing function and digital resources.
Q. What are the resources needed and what has been the return of money spent in the last six years.
Other issues and questions:

There are no Fellow provisions for those working in the Access and Welfare areas of the Society ie there are no NVQ or higher education qualifications.
There are no â€˜breeding qualificationsâ€™ recognised or provided by the BHS
Should members who are employees be considered as having a legal interest and/or are connected persons.
Misleading terminology should be dispensed with e.g. constitution.
If the board is relying on legal advice or demands from outside organisations to make changes to the companies Articles of Association then these must be made available to the members.
There does not seem to be a list of members lodged annually with Companies House.
As a result of changes to the membership structure the definition of those legally allowed to vote and carry the companyâ€™s liability should be up dated.
I have made it clear to the chairman that I am happy to be involved in dealing with these and other issues raised at the meeting or as a result of the meetings adjournment.

Regards
Bob Milton


----------



## honetpot (16 January 2019)

So I have been looking what the BHS are trying to do in China. 

So it looks like selling qualification  packages though use of FBHS.
Its worth a watch, easy to register. 
https://www.eem.tv/en/video/asia-ho...and-the-german-equestrian-federation/1108083#

I am not sure if it will make money long term, which I presume is the purpose, to fund the BHS. I am not sure it is what the average member wants.


----------



## sywell (16 January 2019)

D66 said:



			I'd like to see the BHS communicating with their membership and acting on feedback.
A central aim IMO should be to campaign for a single PIO and database of horse identity in the UK, with sanctions for owners who don't comply. 
Staff and volunteers may be well intentioned and working hard but the strategy and direction given by management should rightly be scrutinised by the membership.

VT  What evidence do you have for the BHS being "modern"?  To me they seem unbelievably old fashioned and stuffy.  Do you really think as your posts imply that there is no possible room for improvement?
		
Click to expand...

It is against EU Regulation EU262 to have only one PIO as registered horses are dreated differently but the EU told DEFRA there should be one PIO for ID only.


----------



## JanetGeorge (16 January 2019)

sywell said:



			It is against EU Regulation EU262 to have only one PIO as registered horses are treated differently but the EU told DEFRA there should be one PIO for ID only.
		
Click to expand...

And we have a register - taking in all the databases - just for basic id and chip checking.  Seems to be more or less useful - just hard to find when no-one has heard of it, lol.   And of course you need to have a microchip number to find anything.  
https://www.equineregister.co.uk/home


----------



## GHamlet75 (16 January 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Everyone who is still in the dark about what happened at the meeting, should read this - thoroughly.  And any of your friends who are BHS Members should see it too.


Notes: on the General Meeting and strategy presentation by The British Horse Society board on the 5th January 2019
From Bob Milton gold member 263474

Dear All BHS members
The General Meeting was called to vote on a special resolution of the board to change a number of clauses of the Articles of Association of The British Horse society being a private limited company by guarantee without share capital and with charitable aims. It should be pointed out that the notice refers to The British Horse Society Constitution which does not exist

Prior to the meeting, which was attended by 105 voting members [see below for details] two thing happened:

Many of the proxy votes held by attending members were found to have been disallowed. This it seems was despite many of the proxies having been assured by phone or email that they would be accepted. Four of these were mine. Two because the posted forms were not validated until the 4th January with post marks in December. Two others which were on time and sent by email used electronic signature. Any thoughts on this point should be sent to the Company Secretary.
A letter of â€˜no confidenceâ€™ in the board, properly signed within the present Article of Association of the company incorporated in July 2016. This was accepted by the Chief Executive and the meeting was opened without anything further said by the Chairman
The Chairman opened the meeting and members of the board spoke to a presentation of the salient changes of the â€˜Constitutionâ€™. There were questions raised both during the presentation and the open question period. Minutes were recorded as well as filming of sessions.
In no particular order the questions and issues raised were;

Was this a general meeting in relation to a special resolution terms defined in the Companyâ€™s Act 2008 for changing the Articles of Association [ie 75% of members to vote in favour]. The Chairman responded that this was not such a special resolution but a written resolution, so a simple majority would apply. The calling papers do refer to the proposals as being a â€˜special resolutionâ€™.
There were quite a number of questions and concerns raised about the proposed format of the new board how that might be abused in the future.
The potential for abuse was particularly aimed at the nominations committee in that it was seen to be biased, capable of manipulation and not independent or transparent.
The Fellows raised concerns following an explanation that their involvement in the nominations committee was only advisory and not as they had understood.
The issue of employees who were also members of The Society was raised after a substantial number entered the room just before the proposed vote. It was felt by a number of remarks made that this was not quite right as there could be a conflict of interest
The ability of the chairman who is coming to the end of his six-year tenure to be re-appointed for another six years was confirmed to be the case under the proposed changes and was not well received in the room.
The amalgamation of all the changes into one resolution was not well received by several members who wanted each article dealt with individually
This disquiet and animosity within what seemed a substantial portion of the room prompted me to act.
At the point when the Chairman was about to call for a vote and the employee members had entered the room, I got up to speak. I expressed in strong terms about the potential for abuse inherent in the proposed changes to the Articles of Association as well the issues raised by the floor which the Chairman had already agreed to seek clarification but had put to one side in seeking to get the resolution voted on. I had previously on the 27th December met with the Chairman and expressed my concerns which had been expounded on by the floor up to this point.
For the reasons set out above I invoked Article 25.6 and called for a vote to adjourn the meeting with a request that the board take notice of the floor and the members, withdraw the special resolution and enter into dialogue with members.
After much coming and goings with staff and the independent observer a poll was demanded and taken. No proxies being allowed even those that were general/open.
The voting having been checked by the independent observer was61 for the motion and 44 against. The meeting was closed. No date for reconvening was given.
On a personal basis I an extremely cautious of the reasons given by the Board relating to Sport England and the Charity Commission. Before supporting such major changes to our Articles of Association I would need written evidence from both of these bodies that they have required such changes and why.
The afternoon continued with a presentation of the strategy document for the next ten years. I have set out below my questions and/or comments on the *12 Areas of focus* published in the document.
1.Public launch of our recreational qualification- Challenge Awards
Q. What is the definition of â€˜recreational qualifications â€˜and are they UKAS registered?
2.Increase participation through British Riding Clubs, Approved Centre and Changing lives.
Q. The legal position of British riding clubs and members seems still to be unresolved.
3.Launch a bridleways project in partnership with strategic partners (funding permitted).
            Q. Funding from who, for what and by whom?
4.Revise our membership proposition and invest in new proposition development.
            Q. Why and for whom
5.Develop a riding centre model which integrates education and membership
6.Further develop our effective lobbying resources
            Q. What does this mean?
7.Increase voluntary income from fundraising
            Q. Is this supposed to be self-financing, if so by when?
8. Expand The British Horse Society -International
Q. Which part of the BHS and should this be done as a separate company wholly owned by the BHS. What are the tax ramifications?
9. Review regional governance and structure
            Q. what is wrong with what we have?
10. Obtain UKAS accreditation.
            Q. Seems to have been a â€˜focusâ€™ for many years.
11. Champion key campaigns
            Q. what constitutes â€˜a key campaignâ€™.
12. Invest in the marketing function and digital resources.
Q. What are the resources needed and what has been the return of money spent in the last six years.
Other issues and questions:

There are no Fellow provisions for those working in the Access and Welfare areas of the Society ie there are no NVQ or higher education qualifications.
There are no â€˜breeding qualificationsâ€™ recognised or provided by the BHS
Should members who are employees be considered as having a legal interest and/or are connected persons.
Misleading terminology should be dispensed with e.g. constitution.
If the board is relying on legal advice or demands from outside organisations to make changes to the companies Articles of Association then these must be made available to the members.
There does not seem to be a list of members lodged annually with Companies House.
As a result of changes to the membership structure the definition of those legally allowed to vote and carry the companyâ€™s liability should be up dated.
I have made it clear to the chairman that I am happy to be involved in dealing with these and other issues raised at the meeting or as a result of the meetings adjournment.

Regards
Bob Milton
		
Click to expand...

JanetGeorge - thank you so much for sharing this information. It is important that all members are informed of the facts. Has there been any update regarding the minutes that were promised from the BHS?


----------



## honetpot (16 January 2019)

I was at the meeting and have had a message since the meeting from the Chairman.

When I asked why we didn't get a Treasurers report, or minutes of the GM, his answer was it wasn't a GM or a EGM so they didn't have to, this reply was after the COO answered  by email that the minutes of this Meeting would be out on the 11th.

There was someone there to 'take minutes', the person was introduced and a camera man. These minutes may morph in to notes, and they may say they do not have to produce them, as it wasn't an AGM,EGM, it was just a....... 

Bob's notes are concise notes, if you go on the Facepage, someone took minutes on the day, where everything is recorded.

Since I have been communicating, with the Chair by email, he has contradicted what he said at the Meeting,  in a room over with over a 100 people in it. So anything could happen.


----------



## GHamlet75 (16 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			I was at the meeting and have had a message since the meeting from the Chairman.

When I asked why we didn't get a Treasurers report, or minutes of the GM, his answer was it wasn't a GM or a EGM so they didn't have to, this reply was after the COO answered  by email that the minutes of this Meeting would be out on the 11th.

There was someone there to 'take minutes', the person was introduced and a camera man. These minutes may morph in to notes, and they may say they do not have to produce them, as it wasn't an AGM,EGM, it was just a.......

Bob's notes are concise notes, if you go on the Facepage, someone took minutes on the day, where everything is recorded.

Since I have been communicating, with the Chair by email, he has contradicted what he said at the Meeting,  in a room over with over a 100 people in it. So anything could happen.
		
Click to expand...

Oh - that's disappointing. Thanks for the update honetpot


----------



## onemoretime (16 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			I was at the meeting and have had a message since the meeting from the Chairman.

When I asked why we didn't get a Treasurers report, or minutes of the GM, his answer was it wasn't a GM or a EGM so they didn't have to, this reply was after the COO answered  by email that the minutes of this Meeting would be out on the 11th.

There was someone there to 'take minutes', the person was introduced and a camera man. These minutes may morph in to notes, and they may say they do not have to produce them, as it wasn't an AGM,EGM, it was just a.......

Bob's notes are concise notes, if you go on the Facepage, someone took minutes on the day, where everything is recorded.

Since I have been communicating, with the Chair by email, he has contradicted what he said at the Meeting,  in a room over with over a 100 people in it. So anything could happen.
		
Click to expand...

They don't help themselves do they!!


----------



## PAK (16 January 2019)

ester said:



			on what basis?
		
Click to expand...

I believe you would have to ask them.


----------



## PAK (16 January 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Personally I have no problem with taking the BHS abroad to raise funds if itâ€™s done in a financially sound way and it can be done without compromising the BHS ethics .
		
Click to expand...

For the moment, I will set aside the "abroad" aspect, if this were true shouldn't members be able to clearly see the finances of this and how it delivers the BHS ethics. As far as I can tell from studying the accounts, we can't.


----------



## Velcrobum (16 January 2019)

I was at the meeting which BHS called a General Meeting in all Documents. Suddenly they say it was not a meeting SO what was it??? The chair repeatedly referred to minutes as did the COO but now they are not!!! There is no longer an AGM so the membership is denied any Treasurers report all we can have is annual accounts but cannot question the board. This is a mess and I sincerely hope the board choose to listen to the members (which included quite a number of ex trustees) very valid (IMHO) concerns and act accordingly. I am also very very disappointed that BHS HQ decided that Proxy votes were invalid - on what grounds ???? How many people who thought they had voted according to BHS requirements had their vote declared invalid. I have had a very full on day and when I have analysed more information I will post more.


----------



## honetpot (16 January 2019)

I feel very pleased with my self, its sad but I have found the puppet, which was reportly last seen a Badminton.
Looking at the way its designed and the theatre group linked to it its probably does need skilled puppeteers. I am not sure which budget its came out of, its so difficult to tell from the accounts, it would be a very difficult teaching aid to use, so is it marketing?

So click on the link and you get to see it and Martin Clunes.
https://www.rubygibbenspuppetry.co.uk/the-horse/


----------



## sywell (17 January 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			And we have a register - taking in all the databases - just for basic id and chip checking.  Seems to be more or less useful - just hard to find when no-one has heard of it, lol.   And of course you need to have a microchip number to find anything. 
https://www.equineregister.co.uk/home

Click to expand...

Chipchecker does not show UELN and cannot search on UELN


----------



## JanetGeorge (17 January 2019)

sywell said:



			Chipchecker does not show UELN and cannot search on UELN
		
Click to expand...

Exactly!  It IS moderately useless (I'll bet it was set up by Capita, lol)


----------



## jofwigby (17 January 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Exactly!  It IS moderately useless (I'll bet it was set up by Capita, lol)
		
Click to expand...

I have to take exception, although not personally - having met the people who set this up, Equine Register - I am totally appalled at the lack of support this project has received from all the horse charities, breed societies & PIOs. Feet dragging, sabotage and a wholesale failure to educate - too busy selling insurance. It is all ahead stop now that they have all realised that horse owners can now use the front end of this system themselves.


----------



## sywell (17 January 2019)

jofwigby said:



			I have to take exception, although not personally - having met the people who set this up, Equine Register - I am totally appalled at the lack of support this project has received from all the horse charities, breed societies & PIOs. Feet dragging, sabotage and a wholesale failure to educate - too busy selling insurance. It is all ahead stop now that they have all realised that horse owners can now use the front end of this system themselves.
		
Click to expand...

I think the Equine Register did not appreciate how hopeless it is when dealing with DEFRA over 20 years I have come to that conclusion. I was asked to proof read the last but one tender document fr the database so I have been there and got the Tshirt.


----------



## PAK (17 January 2019)

Dear BHS â€“

This morning when I was mucking out, I got a text from our bank. Our joint account was overdrawn.

They told me about some shocking payments that I had no idea you had made. Lorries, drivers, puppets, computer systems, lots of other fancy things like uniforms, and designer gins- all kinds of things that we have never discussed and I thought we were â€œone teamâ€.

When we got together, I believed that you genuinely cared for me. That our relationship wasnâ€™t just all about the money. And that we shared a common love of horses. But now I see that isnâ€™t true. Youâ€™re spending so much money, without my knowing, on things that donâ€™t really matter to me.

After I finished the call with the bank, and all the mucking out, I checked the horses and sat down with a coffee. I was rather tempted to add a large dollop of brandy to pick my spirits up but I did not. I opened the newspaper and there on the front page was a picture of you at a fancy place in another country hob-nobbing.

I am off out to see a lawyer now. I am getting a divorce.

Your former "better half"
A. Member

Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/bhs-meeting-update.771333/page-3#WlC2deVCZTX0ii4y.99


----------



## JanetGeorge (17 January 2019)

jofwigby said:



			I have to take exception, although not personally - having met the people who set this up, Equine Register - I am totally appalled at the lack of support this project has received from all the horse charities, breed societies & PIOs. Feet dragging, sabotage and a wholesale failure to educate - too busy selling insurance. It is all ahead stop now that they have all realised that horse owners can now use the front end of this system themselves.
		
Click to expand...

I can't speak for any of the other PIOs - but all horses I know the chip of I can find there - or at least find the most basic information.  But there is NO other way the database offers to 'find' a horse.  My breed society's database you can search for all pure-bred Males or Females born in THAT year (owned/bred by anyone), chip no, UELN, breeder, name of horse, etc etc etc. And if it has been bred from, the same for all its registered progeny.


----------



## PAK (18 January 2019)




----------



## honetpot (18 January 2019)

While we finally got some minutes, not all of them and its seems that a lot of people from the floor were not there.

Like Bobby Ewing,( if you are too young, its an very old TV soap), we will all wake up in the shower and it will be like it never happened. They wish


----------



## PAK (19 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			So I have been looking what the BHS are trying to do in China.

So it looks like selling qualification  packages though use of FBHS.
Its worth a watch, easy to register.
https://www.eem.tv/en/video/asia-ho...and-the-german-equestrian-federation/1108083#

I am not sure if it will make money long term, which I presume is the purpose, to fund the BHS. I am not sure it is what the average member wants.
		
Click to expand...

Were the members ever asked? Not to my knowledge. I do not want my donation, leveraged with gift aid, going to fund anything other than our core objectives. Where is the evidence that shows that the funds are flowing to the core objectives.


----------



## PAK (19 January 2019)




----------



## PAK (19 January 2019)

There is a lack of transparency in this "secret society" that does not publish Board or senior management minutes. When members lack information and see huge lorries and a puppet, questions must be raised!


----------



## PAK (19 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			While we finally got some minutes, not all of them and its seems that a lot of people from the floor were not there.

Like Bobby Ewing,( if you are too young, its an very old TV soap), we will all wake up in the shower and it will be like it never happened. They wish
		
Click to expand...

BHS continues to dismiss legitimate & respectful questions from its members.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (19 January 2019)

PAK said:



View attachment 29024

Click to expand...


You may have a point and valid reasons for all this but this kind of post is weird imo. Summarise the facts and they should speak for themselves.


----------



## PAK (19 January 2019)

MotherOfChickens said:



			You may have a point and valid reasons for all this but this kind of post is weird imo. Summarise the facts and they should speak for themselves.
		
Click to expand...

Love your title. I keep poultry too. Yes I agree - just trying to spread the word so people start/continue informing themselves. Watch this space for the facts. They do speak for themselves.


----------



## Tiddlypom (19 January 2019)

Please can we stick to the facts and not have to sift through these weird little offerings too.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (19 January 2019)

PAK said:



			Love your title. I keep poultry too. Yes I agree - just trying to spread the word so people start/continue informing themselves. Watch this space for the facts. They do speak for themselves.
		
Click to expand...

but if I were to come across one of these odd posts without knowing the background I'd be likely to dismiss it as a personal dispute or just be turned off the whole thing.


----------



## Violettears (19 January 2019)

PAK said:



View attachment 29024

Click to expand...

What is this? Are you sending these letters to the BHS. Have you had a reply lol!


----------



## honetpot (19 January 2019)

Sorry I am suffering from information fatigue. 

 Unfortunately do to the nature of forums, information that you put in ages a go get lost in the conversation. The facebook group was set up to put all the documents in one place.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/membersBHS/
 All the docs are uploaded at the side of the page, accounts, The Strategy plan, breakdowns of spending. Minutes taken at the meeting, Bob Miltons opinion/account of the  Articles of Association changes.

Lots of people started on this when the proposed changes were announced, I started looking as a long standing member as to why they were needed and I have found out more over the last three weeks. The meeting of the 5th January, which I attended thinking I would sit and say nothing, and came away perplexed by the way it was run and the answers given by the Board and their reasoning behind the answers.
 I have since emailed and got answers which conflict with the ones I was at the meeting, given by the same person. Confused, I am.

If this was a service we were buying, such as, electrify, we would want to know we were getting the best value for money, and they would have to tell us. The BHS do not tell us, they give us no accounts and they seem to be very good at keeping each area uninformed even though they spent over Â£1m on it.

We give a proportion of our membership to a charity to spend on ,'HORSES AND RIDERS IN THE UK AND ABROAD. FOCUSING ON HORSE WELFARE, HORSE AND RIDER SAFETY, ACCESS AND RIGHTS OF WAY, TRAINING AND APPROVING LIVERY YARDS AND RIDING SCHOOLS.'
We are just making sure the money is going on that, and we are getting value for money. Is that really a bad thing?

The other big thing is how people are appointed to the Board, they are not voted on by members. It could end up that there were very few members on the board at all, who had any commitment to the charities core aims.

So ie. The Board needs the plumbing fixing, members apply for the job, but they are not suitably qualified, although they have supervised a large building project and may know where to get a good plumber. So the Board co-opts Fred a plumber on to the Board, he fixes the plumbing but stays on the Board becomes a member of the club, gets on the with the other members and after three years he can stay on the Board in his own right. 
  They then need someone to fix the electrics, none of the members put forward have the relevant qualifications, but as company that has had employs electrician in the past and knows about the regulations, but the Board turn him down. 
 Fred the plumber who is now a full Board member can co-opt is his mate Stan the electrician. The members have no involvement in this.


----------



## Violettears (19 January 2019)

PAK said:



			There is a lack of transparency in this "secret society" that does not publish Board or senior management minutes. When members lack information and see huge lorries and a puppet, questions must be raised!
		
Click to expand...

There are now 105,000 members according to the Chairman, thatâ€™s fantastic! As far as I can see there are only about 5 or 6 people that share your view, that leaves 104,954 members who rather like the modern, proactive work that they are doing for horses and equestrians. Seems like you would like a return to the past!


----------



## ester (19 January 2019)

ooh have you done a poll of the membership?


----------



## PAK (19 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			There are now 105,000 members according to the Chairman, thatâ€™s fantastic! As far as I can see there are only about 5 or 6 people that share your view, that leaves 104,954 members who rather like the modern, proactive work that they are doing for horses and equestrians. Seems like you would like a return to the past!
		
Click to expand...

Respectfully disagree. Some people would say that the Brexit referendum clearly demonstrated that one can not make assumptions based on silence.


----------



## onemoretime (19 January 2019)

PAK said:



			Respectfully disagree. Some people would say that the Brexit referendum clearly demonstrated that one can not make assumptions based on silence.
		
Click to expand...




Violettears said:



			There are now 105,000 members according to the Chairman, thatâ€™s fantastic! As far as I can see there are only about 5 or 6 people that share your view, that leaves 104,954 members who rather like the modern, proactive work that they are doing for horses and equestrians. Seems like you would like a return to the past!
		
Click to expand...

There are a great deal more than 5 or 6 people who have very serious concerns about how the BHS is being run.  We don't want a return to the past, we want a positively run BHS with transparency and contact with its members.  We don't want our subs spent in a spendthrift manner on horse boxes and puppets.  You need to catch up with what has been said in the last week.


----------



## honetpot (19 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			There are now 105,000 members according to the Chairman, thatâ€™s fantastic! As far as I can see there are only about 5 or 6 people that share your view, that leaves 104,954 members who rather like the modern, proactive work that they are doing for horses and equestrians. Seems like you would like a return to the past!
		
Click to expand...

67% of income came from members, in 2017. The BHS spent Â£1m and a bit on IT, but its is unable to send an email to everyone it has an email for.
  I think if you run anything that people give you money for, you have to be,
Open to questions, and ideas.
Transparent in how they spend your money, and give a good reason for why they have spent it,
Accountable for what they have done, an have a clear rational of why they have done it.

Until they are able to be the first two, we have no idea if they are doing a good job. From what we are hearing from all over the country, perhaps they are not doing as good a job as you thought.

We are just trying to make them accountable.


----------



## PAK (19 January 2019)

onemoretime said:



			There are a great deal more than 5 or 6 people who have very serious concerns about how the BHS is being run.  We don't want a return to the past, we want a positively run BHS with transparency and contact with its members.  We don't want our subs spent in a spendthrift manner on horse boxes and puppets.  You need to catch up with what has been said in the last week.
		
Click to expand...

A


honetpot said:



			67% of income came from members, in 2017. The BHS spent Â£1m and a bit on IT, but its is unable to send an email to everyone it has an email for.
  I think if you run anything that people give you money for, you have to be,
Open to questions, and ideas.
Transparent in how they spend your money, and give a good reason for why they have spent it,
Accountable for what they have done, an have a clear rational of why they have done it.

Until they are able to be the first two, we have no idea if they are doing a good job. From what we are hearing from all over the country, perhaps they are not doing as good a job as you thought.
		
Click to expand...

Well said. We don't pay to be a member of a "secret society".


----------



## PAK (19 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			67% of income came from members, in 2017. The BHS spent Â£1m and a bit on IT, but its is unable to send an email to everyone it has an email for.
  I think if you run anything that people give you money for, you have to be,
Open to questions, and ideas.
Transparent in how they spend your money, and give a good reason for why they have spent it,
Accountable for what they have done, an have a clear rational of why they have done it.

Until they are able to be the first two, we have no idea if they are doing a good job. From what we are hearing from all over the country, perhaps they are not doing as good a job as you thought.

We are just trying to make them accountable.
		
Click to expand...

Yes 67% of income is for members but only 11% goes to welfare, safety & access. That's less that 4% each!


----------



## PAK (19 January 2019)

And BHS education has been overtaken by UKCC.


----------



## ViolettaTears (20 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			There are now 105,000 members according to the Chairman, thatâ€™s fantastic! As far as I can see there are only about 5 or 6 people that share your view, that leaves 104,954 members who rather like the modern, proactive work that they are doing for horses and equestrians. Seems like you would like a return to the past!
		
Click to expand...

Silence does not equal acquiescence or acceptance .....  a lot more than a handful of people - yes some people who have been paid a lot have done some good things but at what expense - human, horse and hard cash... End of convo


----------



## jofwigby (21 January 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			I can't speak for any of the other PIOs - but all horses I know the chip of I can find there - or at least find the most basic information.  But there is NO other way the database offers to 'find' a horse.  My breed society's database you can search for all pure-bred Males or Females born in THAT year (owned/bred by anyone), chip no, UELN, breeder, name of horse, etc etc etc. And if it has been bred from, the same for all its registered progeny.
		
Click to expand...

I am looking from a purely Welfare position on the new Database - the Breed Society etc information should be, as it is, separate and searchable by Members.


----------



## Violettears (22 January 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			Silence does not equal acquiescence or acceptance .....  a lot more than a handful of people - yes some people who have been paid a lot have done some good things but at what expense - human, horse and hard cash... End of convo
		
Click to expand...

Violeta, how strange we share the same surname but not the same view. The purpose of a forum is to exchange a POV so no it is not â€˜end of convoâ€™. You have just confirmed my view that there are a very few â€˜angryâ€™ people who have a personal axe to grind or have a large bowl of sour grapes in front of them and donâ€™t like the fact that there is another view. Yes, I return to my observation! You still do not accept that there is some great work being done by the BHS that needs applauding, without adding your blanket downers.


----------



## honetpot (22 January 2019)

Oh dear, I like to hear anyones point of view, if we do not exchange ideas we can not understand.

 Its just a shame you use words , 'angry' and 'personal axe to grind' , 'sour grapes', I have non of these. I just want to know that the money that I have essentially donated to the BHS over the last 30 years is being spent wisely and so far I have no evidence of that. In fact the more evidence I find the chances are its been wasted. Until someone can show me in the accounts that is not so I will kept asking questions. The BHS Trustee and Management team do not want to answer those questions.


----------



## Red-1 (23 January 2019)

PAK said:



			And BHS education has been overtaken by UKCC.
		
Click to expand...

I think that it may not be so just yet, but it is heading that way.

Around 6 years ago I saw that the AI was allocated points on the Govt framework, but not the II. At the time I was looking to change careers, and contacted he BHS to see if the AI could be given the Govt. Level 3, he II the govt Level 4 qualification status etc. In this way I *could* have presented my Horse qualifications as serious qualifications. 

I was told to "watch this space." 6 years on, the qualifications have changed name, but I think that is just an abstract number as, when I looked, it was not on the Govt. framework.

6 years ago I said how colleges were taking students from the traditional BHS educational establishments, as mum and dad, if not horsey, would rather DD or DS had a HND or whatever, as employers understand that. 

As an employee, if not applying for a horse related job, I don't even list the BHS exams, much less take the hard won certificates. The employers don't see them as relevant outside the horse world, even though there would be transferable skills. In fact, it would not portray a professional image, rather like taking your 100m swimming certificate would be seen as a bit odd. If, however, they were on the Govt. framework, level X, worth X points.... then that would be relevant. 

If they have, in fact, done this then they have certainly not shouted about it.

If I had a son or daughter who wanted to do exams I would direct to a college as it is a qualification that employers understand. The UKCC is at least a qualification that I do list, as I list it as UKCC (UK Sports Council Sports Coaching Certificate - Level 3) as it sounds a lot more professional. 

I did ask about people who had the BHSII getting new certification to show the new name of the exam, but did not make any headway in that. At least having a cert with level 4 written on it would have been a start. But still, I don't think the level 4 tag is any more than a self attributed number.


----------



## ester (23 January 2019)

Iâ€™m not angry and have no axe or grapes, what an odd comment.


----------



## fidleyspromise (23 January 2019)

Violettears said:



			There are now 105,000 members according to the Chairman, thatâ€™s fantastic! As far as I can see there are only about 5 or 6 people that share your view, that leaves 104,954 members who rather like the modern, proactive work that they are doing for horses and equestrians. Seems like you would like a return to the past!
		
Click to expand...

I disagree as what you are seeing are the people who are passionate and vocal about this.  There are plenty of us who share the same viewpoint but are reading all the material that has been produced and just because we are not jumping up and down screaming that does not mean we are not happy.


----------



## honetpot (23 January 2019)

We have now 752 members of our Facebook page, which was started just over two weeks ago.
We hope even if you do not agree with our concerns about the BHS you will be better informed having read the documents posted on there. These include the changes proposed by the BHS to the Articles of Association that seem to be no longer available on the BHS website.
  Through the Facebook group we have heard from people that are just as concerned as 'we' are, they just didn't know how to get their voice heard.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/membersBHS/


----------



## JanetGeorge (23 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			We have now 752 members of our Facebook page, which was started just over two weeks ago.
We hope even if you do not agree with our concerns about the BHS you will be better informed having read the documents posted on there. These include the changes proposed by the BHS to the Articles of Association that seem to be no longer available on the BHS website.
  Through the Facebook group we have heard from people that are just as concerned as 'we' are, they just didn't know how to get their voice heard.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/membersBHS/

Click to expand...

lol, and isn't it odd that several BHS staff members have tried to join the Group - including one Director.  Funnily enough, they didn't answer the questions so were not accepted.  Not so funny that several volunteers have been 'sacked' for daring to participate.


----------



## onemoretime (23 January 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			lol, and isn't it odd that several BHS staff members have tried to join the Group - including one Director.  Funnily enough, they didn't answer the questions so were not accepted.  Not so funny that several volunteers have been 'sacked' for daring to participate.
		
Click to expand...

What a perfectly nasty thing to do to sack volunteers just because they joined the FB group.  That really does show the BHS up in its true colours.


----------



## Velcrobum (23 January 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			lol, and isn't it odd that several BHS staff members have tried to join the Group - including one Director.  Funnily enough, they didn't answer the questions so were not accepted.  Not so funny that several volunteers have been 'sacked' for daring to participate.
		
Click to expand...

That is plainly vindictive and emphasizes to me personally that management/trustees of BHS do not acknowledge the value of the volunteers who do valuable work for BHS for free and subsidize the organization.IMHO a disgusting course of action.


----------



## Red-1 (23 January 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			lol, and isn't it odd that several BHS staff members have tried to join the Group - including one Director.  Funnily enough, they didn't answer the questions so were not accepted.  Not so funny that several volunteers have been 'sacked' for daring to participate.
		
Click to expand...

I don't understand that at all. Surely the group is to discuss the improvements that people would like in a non censored and accessible way. Sacking volunteers? Wow. Did you get that from the people concerned?

I also don't understand why they would not answer the questions. If it were my company I would prefer to be in the group to see what people were saying. But then, I would have a more open official forum on FB anyway. Not to allow nastiness but nothing wrong with exchanging views on what works or does not work.


----------



## honetpot (23 January 2019)

Red-1 said:



			I don't understand that at all. Surely the group is to discuss the improvements that people would like in a non censored and accessible way. Sacking volunteers? Wow. Did you get that from the people concerned?

I also don't understand why they would not answer the questions. If it were my company I would prefer to be in the group to see what people were saying. But then, I would have a more open official forum on FB anyway. Not to allow nastiness but nothing wrong with exchanging views on what works or does not work.
		
Click to expand...

I think for the last two weeks that we have tried to create a 'safe space' to express their concerns.
  Some the issues being discussed involve the treatment of staff an volunteers, its can be very sensitive for people to express their concerns.
   I have nothing to lose, I have never worked for the BHS, and do not depend on my living by their endorsement. Like you say you would think they would be interested in what their customers think, most of their income comes from them, but its seems they would rather silence them, and ignore them.
   They make changes with telling the membership, hand have conveniently made it so they do not hold AGM, or vote Trustees from the membership.
   They only told people about the 5th January because they had to, and then they made it difficult for members to access information.


----------



## JanetGeorge (23 January 2019)

Red-1 said:



			I don't understand that at all. Surely the group is to discuss the improvements that people would like in a non censored and accessible way. Sacking volunteers? Wow. Did you get that from the people concerned?

I also don't understand why they would not answer the questions. If it were my company I would prefer to be in the group to see what people were saying. But then, I would have a more open official forum on FB anyway. Not to allow nastiness but nothing wrong with exchanging views on what works or does not work.
		
Click to expand...

I most certainly did, Red-1.  And the people even included elected officers of local and regional committees!  I think it was Edmund Burke who said: "The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing."  And in just 2 weeks, nearly 800 BHS Members have joined the FB Group.

I also think BHS COULD learn something important from Bill Gates.


----------



## Red-1 (24 January 2019)

I think there is a difference between being sacked because you joined a certain group and sacked because you have said something that means your position is untenable. 

For example, if someone said the CEO "is corrupt" or similar, then this is personal and different than if someone said "I don't like what the CEO is doing." 

Being sacked because you simply joined a group is something akin to the people who started the war. 

Being sacked because you publicly disagree with how someone does something is wrong, but understandable (if not justifiable).

Being sacked because you publicly accuse someone of being corrupt, I get that. That is personal, not critiquing their policies, just them personally. 

I do think that the BHS has to change. I don't like the way it has been run, I have been victim to their policies costing me money unnecessarily. I don't like the "Old Boys" or girls way of running things. 

But, I think to be heard with clarity, people would be wise to speak out carefully. Not saying that you or other individuals who have been in the centre of this have not, but there is an element of crowd getting feverish and details getting muddied in all the excitement.  In that way the real arguments can be lost.


----------



## honetpot (24 January 2019)

I think most of us have tried to keep things factual. Its trying to get to the facts that is the hard part. 
I have not posted  the contents on things I have found on the on internet on here or the contents of emails I have received because like most of us I think of the BHS and part of my family and I want them to make the right choices, and we are trying to do it in a positive way. Choices that do not cause people distress, that continue the work that many people, with little money have carried out over many years and support new volunteers  to continue that work in a supportive environment.
  If the BHS is a family, lets hope it doesn't end up in divorce.


----------



## JanetGeorge (28 January 2019)

This thread has been running for a long time - and had a lot of views.  And it was via this thread, that many members became concerned about the 'secret' meeting to change the BHS Constitution (5th January) and the had those proposed changed put on hold.  There is still a risk of the meeting being held - again at short notice.  The only notice might be given by e-mail and the e-mails to members system seems to be less than efficient!!  Please - if anyone gets an e-mail about a new meeting - and if you share our concerns - please post it here or on the FB Group set up after the Meeting.  https://www.facebook.com/groups/membersBHS/members/  That Group now has very close to 900 members - in just 3 weeks.


----------



## PAK (28 January 2019)

honetpot said:



			Oh dear, I like to hear anyones point of view, if we do not exchange ideas we can not understand.

Its just a shame you use words , 'angry' and 'personal axe to grind' , 'sour grapes', I have non of these. I just want to know that the money that I have essentially donated to the BHS over the last 30 years is being spent wisely and so far I have no evidence of that. In fact the more evidence I find the chances are its been wasted. Until someone can show me in the accounts that is not so I will kept asking questions. The BHS Trustee and Management team do not want to answer those questions.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree!


----------



## PAK (30 January 2019)

I received a message from Eve Equine - We asked for a response by today from the BHS Board. Sadly we have not received a reply to our letter and membersâ€™ concerns that you contributed to and supported. We now ask for your suggestions about next steps. Please comment here.


----------



## JanetGeorge (30 January 2019)

One suggestion I have made on our FB Group is that as many members as possible ring the Membership Department tomorrow and IF you get through, ask if anyone can give you a good reason why you shouldn't stop your membership after x-years?  If there is an attempt to give you a reason, then ask another question (like: 'but what about - X - Y _ Z. ) When you get bored, say:  'Mmm, I must give this a bit more thought.  I will ring you on Monday morning if I decide I DO want to leave."  Perhaps that will concentrate the minds of the Board that the members ARE important.  After all, if just 200 members left, that would be a fat dent in the BHS wallet.


----------



## Eve Equine (31 January 2019)

Please visit my profile for further information, PM or emailed comments welcome  https://www.facebook.com/eve.quine.31

bhsmembers2019@outlook.com


----------



## onemoretime (31 January 2019)

Would it be worth arranging a meeting face to face with someone high up in the Charity Commissions so that these problems can be talked through.


----------



## JanetGeorge (31 January 2019)

We now have proof (from the horse's mouth) that the proposed changes to the Articles of Association had NOTHING to do with meeting Sport England's requirements regarding governance of organisations receiving funding from Sport England/UK Sport.  So the primary 'excuse' for the proposed changes is untrue.


----------



## JanetGeorge (31 January 2019)

onemoretime said:



			Would it be worth arranging a meeting face to face with someone high up in the Charity Commissions so that these problems can be talked through.
		
Click to expand...

It certainly would be, onemoretime.  Problem is, the CC are currently 'looking in to it' and if/when they want a meeting, there will be one.  But they make the rules re if, who, when and where.


----------



## PAK (31 January 2019)

onemoretime said:



			Would it be worth arranging a meeting face to face with someone high up in the Charity Commissions so that these problems can be talked through.
		
Click to expand...

Do you have any means to help make that happen?


----------



## Eve Equine (31 January 2019)

Please visit my profile for further information, PM or emailed comments welcome  https://www.facebook.com/eve.quine.31

bhsmembers2019@outlook.com


----------



## Eve Equine (31 January 2019)

UPDATE; The BHS has now responded to the letter and is offer to meet some members.  Considering a response and will get back to you shortly.  Any thoughts?


----------



## onemoretime (31 January 2019)

PAK said:



			Do you have any means to help make that happen?
		
Click to expand...

  Sorry Im afraid I don't.  Ive never had anything to do with running a charity or the Charity Commission.


----------



## honetpot (1 February 2019)

The Charity Commission England have quite narrow guidelines in how they will become involveed, and investigate chairities. In most cases you have to prove you have tried to reslove the problem with the charity inless you thinks some serious offfence has taken place.
  The BHS accounts are so basic, they keep telling us the have a turnover of Â£11m, but have managed to make a loss, despite an increase in membership, which is their main source of income. One does wonder what they have to hide?

They have incresed their staffing, again, which is a huge cost, but seem to want to discourage volenteers, which apart from training for free. Some volenteers who have been working for the charity for many years have left because they are so disheartened.

Members are shareholders they seem to forget this and they need to know why this, amoungest other things , why this is happaning. So I suggest that anyone that is a member write to the Trust Board and ask questions.
The email adress is, trustee.contact@bhs.org.uk
Please do not the Trust Board think that no one cares.

They seem to think that we are a small number of people with an axe to grind. I certainly am not. I am someone who  wants to know, in detail, how the money is spent, why is more not being spent on welfare and access, and why their very basic accounts are showing a loss? And how are they going to stop spending they haven't got.
 I do not think a converted horsebox, I think its supposed to be for education, who knows, which has no disclosed budget, that has no loo, and very poor disabled access, is money well spent. Oh and lets not mention the folly of the puppet, as one welfare officer said, 'it looks like it has laminitis' and is so poorly that it has been on 'box rest', for most of its short life.

We have a Facebook group where concerned members and past members can look at the documents, and just generally inform thermselves about the issues.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/membersBHS/


----------



## Eve Equine (1 February 2019)

*Members Options*

To date, 900+ members, supporters and volunteers have voiced concerns, questions and opinions via social media and face to face. These concerns were presented in 150+ questions and made known to the BHS via a letter with an accompanying list of questions.



We have now received a response from the Board offering to meet with some members; this was an option we had offered in the covering letter, to take *voting members* who can listen to the board, help explain the concerns raised and feed back to all members.



The communication came from â€˜*Eve Equineâ€™*. A small group of us collated the information and sent it in Eveâ€™s name as a voice for members. This information was shared with members before we sent it to the Board, Chairman and The Charity Commission.



Many of you have asked what next and suggested the following options were open to us: -



*Option one - Accept the meeting - *As some of you may be aware, events have led us to have concern about personal reprisals to the individuals attending and we will seek assurances on this front before progressing.

Therefore, we need you, the members, to trust the *Eve Equine team* to select a group to attend the meeting and we ask for your continued trust to act in the best interests of all members, as we have done to date. We in no way class ourselves as leaders; but rather the voice of members and stakeholders. We have aimed to ensure professional, informed, passionate, caring and unbiased facilitated communication. We will put together a group of people balancing the following criteria:

Geographic spread across UK
Expertise on financial matters
Expert knowledge of Articles of Association, as well as the AOA of other charities
Experienced equestrian within the sector
Ex-employee & Volunteer
Welfare, Access, Education and Safety

We will report back on the content of the meeting and seek input before continuing.


Alternative options that were considered:



*Option two - *Decline the meeting and petition for EGM. This carries the risk that we do not achieve the majority of â€œyesâ€ votes required, resulting in no change.


*Option three - *Wait for the Board to announce plans to reconvene the general meeting adjourned on 5th January with a currently unknown approach to the â€˜constitutionalâ€™ changes. They may not even schedule a further meeting. Again there is a risk of no change.



*Option four - *Wait and hope for an investigation by The Charity Commission. Timeline unknown, risk of no change.


*Option five - *Wait for June/July when 3 Trustee terms end. Ensure the selection of member-oriented candidates by some form of a â€œuse your vote wiselyâ€ campaign. â€œEve Equineâ€ and members will have no control or influence over the candidates to go forward to the vote/co-option by the BHS Nominations Committee. Likely outcome would be a risk of no change.



*The Eve Equine team felt it was important to follow a reasonable way forward and accept the offer to meet as was requested in the original letter sent to the BHS. Please continue to trust us to do the best we possibly can for you.*



*Note*

About Eve Equine Profile â€“ this open public profile was created to ensure that members and interested parties that donâ€™t meet the admission criteria for the BHS Membersâ€™ page were engaged and had equal access and input to this process. The *Eve Equine team* *is working independently* of the admin of the BHS Membersâ€™ page, to ensure there is no bias and that all information is shared for the page admin to share.


----------



## JanetGeorge (1 February 2019)

Please be aware, Eve Equine is a puppet - who was used initially by the Members' Group to communicate with BHS.  Her puppet master has apparently decided she knows best and Eve Equine is NOT now the public 'face' of the Group and is acting without considering the possible consequences of 'splitting' the Group and not getting the Group's agreement to 'her' actions.  We are trying to get this mess sorted.


----------



## Leo Walker (1 February 2019)

From someone not involved with this, EveEquine seems to have done something useful, which the actual group hasnt done yet, so whats the issue?

The whole thing just seems really weird and odd tbh


----------



## Surbie (1 February 2019)

The Eve Equine thing IS weird. Apparently a team but no clue who they are, yet they are asking people to trust them to lead a conversation begun by the members group. Personally I don't place my trust in those who aren't up front about who they are.

They have taken all the cumulative work put together on the members group, which is a closed group and whacked it up on a public profile. And they feel free to speak to the BHS on behalf of the members group without consulting them. It's just not right.


----------



## limestonelil (2 February 2019)

Chin up Janet. I had  also found Eve Equine a confusing red herring initially but understand now. Hope we all get back on track today. I admire your tenacity.


----------



## Red-1 (2 February 2019)

I did not like the idea of a closed group in the first place, it is in no way private as anyone can answer the 'entry' questions in any way, with no way to check. You have people joining who you don't know.

I bet the CEO has had a friend join (as I presume the CEO would not have been allowed to join?) and has answered the questions to your satisfaction (if I were CEO I would think it was my duty to know what was going on!).

So, whatever is being said is not private, so why have the group as closed?

As for a faceless "puppet" called Eve Equine, I am surprised that the BHS responded to that at all. Surely a letter signed by a good number of people (electronic signatures fine) would be the less cloak and dagger way to go?

It is hard to tell the BHS to be accountable and up front when the people urging this action are using a closed FB group and a faceless 'puppet' to broach queries.


----------



## Leo Walker (2 February 2019)

This whole thing is a farce. My news feed is full of posts saying people are leaving and/or asking whats going on.

There is far too much cloak and dagger stuff going on, and far too many comments that seem to have a personal basis. I've not really engaged with the group as I joined and saw a load of inappropriate ranting, so backed carefully away. I'm not the only one that feels like that. 

It seems like a tiny handful of people are running the show from behind the scenes and now that group has split into 2 who are bitching and fighting, although to be fair eve equine has only posted the factual stuff, its the other group thats full of bitching and speculation, but thats the nature of closed groups it would seem. Its putting people off and you are losing members hand over fist though

The only real difference being the other group is now doing things and everything seems to be open.


----------



## ester (2 February 2019)

I'm pretty appalled that there was ever a facebook profile that multiple users using it TBH. We know full well that sort of set up never ends well just from here. 
I will be leaving you all to it from here on in. I do neither cloaks, daggers or infighting.


----------



## Red-1 (2 February 2019)

I think that the idea of a group on FB was a good one. But, there was no point in being secretive, TBH I would have made it open and rejoiced if the CEO or any other staff from the BHS had made use of the platform to engage with people.

It could have been a place for discussion and exchanging views, without BHS censure. The only censure it needed was for swearing, bullying, libel, anything that contravenes FB rules.

The idea of Eve Equine asking for 'friend requests' is creepy. My FB profile is private, thank you. I certainly won't be befriending a faceless entity and allowing perhaps my friends' data into the unknown too. That is what "pages" are for, is it not? So people can 'follow' as opposed to befriend? If Eve Equine has been set up as a person then can this not be reported to FB as a false ID? I believe it would soon be closed down then, as people have to use their correct names on FB, rather than a 'puppet' name.

I also found the constant whipping up of numbers was distracting and unnecessary. Also the letters or whatever they were. It became a circus of people being incited to join the circus rather than a forum to discuss how people feel.

I can see that good points too, where documents were catalogued so people could see the current rules of the BHS as it seemed that they are not easily accessible on the web site. I see it as useful to discuss and develop ideas. I see it as useful if someone needs signatures to bring about change.

I just don't know why it can't be done on a proper page, where you can choose to browse or follow to comment. No secrecy.


----------



## ester (2 February 2019)

Yes it can be reported as a false ID .


----------



## JanetGeorge (2 February 2019)

Red-1 - you make some good points.  to answer some of them - not using 'quote' as that can get confusing.(To me, at least, lol.)
The reason we went with 'private' was to ensure that only people who have a real interest and share our concerns would have easy access to any planning.  And yes - we knew the risks of a 'mole'.  There have been several attempts to 'dig in' by staff/friends of the CEO.  Member requests were accepted or declined based on several factos other than answer to questions.  A check with a staff/Board list (none of those who tried answered the questions, of course.)  We filtered for 'friends in Group' and 'mutual friends'.  And a bit of gut instinct too.  It was interesting that very few of those who didn't answer questions had friends in the Group.  SOme had some friends in Group AND mutual friends - they got a reminder about questions.  After all, without the questions we would have had at LEAST 3 times more members - and at least some of them would be totally disinterested or addictive joiners of groups.

I agree you with the whipping up of numbers - that was one thing I tried to stop.  The member of the Admin team who did it is now a puppetmaster for Eve Equine.


----------



## Violettears (2 February 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Please be aware, Eve Equine is a puppet - who was used initially by the Members' Group to communicate with BHS.  Her puppet master has apparently decided she knows best and Eve Equine is NOT now the public 'face' of the Group and is acting without considering the possible consequences of 'splitting' the Group and not getting the Group's agreement to 'her' actions.  We are trying to get this mess sorted.
		
Click to expand...

A mess indeed, how can anyone now trust your â€˜groupâ€™, puppet masters, secrecy, underhand tactics, and you are trying to accuse the BHS of being secretive... oh dear, oh dear.


----------



## Eve Equine (2 February 2019)

Surbie said:



			The Eve Equine thing IS weird. Apparently a team but no clue who they are, yet they are asking people to trust them to lead a conversation begun by the members group. Personally I don't place my trust in those who aren't up front about who they are.

They have taken all the cumulative work put together on the members group, which is a closed group and whacked it up on a public profile. And they feel free to speak to the BHS on behalf of the members group without consulting them. It's just not right.
		
Click to expand...

The Profile has been turned into a page that is open to all, Eve Equine is a small team, but you can clearly see 2 of us as admin, due to various reason not related to BHS issue, we need to protect the identities of the other members of the team.

 I hope you and others will take the time to read Patricia statement, that she heartfelt gave today. The small Team of Eve have worked very hard over the last 2 week, using there professional skills to collate the data from many sources, as they were all coded, we know that only 20 were generate form original comments from the members page.

 Hope you find the information useful on the page, which can be freely viewed without joining or befriending
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/bhs-meeting-update-signpost.771332/#z2MHqE0lUx0TyADA.99


----------



## Eve Equine (2 February 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Red-1 - you make some good points.  to answer some of them - not using 'quote' as that can get confusing.(To me, at least, lol.)
The reason we went with 'private' was to ensure that only people who have a real interest and share our concerns would have easy access to any planning.  And yes - we knew the risks of a 'mole'.  There have been several attempts to 'dig in' by staff/friends of the CEO.  Member requests were accepted or declined based on several factos other than answer to questions.  A check with a staff/Board list (none of those who tried answered the questions, of course.)  We filtered for 'friends in Group' and 'mutual friends'.  And a bit of gut instinct too.  It was interesting that very few of those who didn't answer questions had friends in the Group.  SOme had some friends in Group AND mutual friends - they got a reminder about questions.  After all, without the questions we would have had at LEAST 3 times more members - and at least some of them would be totally disinterested or addictive joiners of groups.

I agree you with the whipping up of numbers - that was one thing I tried to stop.  The member of the Admin team who did it is now a puppetmaster for Eve Equine.
		
Click to expand...




Red-1 said:



			I think that the idea of a group on FB was a good one. But, there was no point in being secretive, TBH I would have made it open and rejoiced if the CEO or any other staff from the BHS had made use of the platform to engage with people.

It could have been a place for discussion and exchanging views, without BHS censure. The only censure it needed was for swearing, bullying, libel, anything that contravenes FB rules.

The idea of Eve Equine asking for 'friend requests' is creepy. My FB profile is private, thank you. I certainly won't be befriending a faceless entity and allowing perhaps my friends' data into the unknown too. That is what "pages" are for, is it not? So people can 'follow' as opposed to befriend? If Eve Equine has been set up as a person then can this not be reported to FB as a false ID? I believe it would soon be closed down then, as people have to use their correct names on FB, rather than a 'puppet' name.

I also found the constant whipping up of numbers was distracting and unnecessary. Also the letters or whatever they were. It became a circus of people being incited to join the circus rather than a forum to discuss how people feel.

I can see that good points too, where documents were catalogued so people could see the current rules of the BHS as it seemed that they are not easily accessible on the web site. I see it as useful to discuss and develop ideas. I see it as useful if someone needs signatures to bring about change.

I just don't know why it can't be done on a proper page, where you can choose to browse or follow to comment. No secrecy.
		
Click to expand...

The Profile has been turned into a page that is open to all, Eve Equine is a small team, but you can clearly see 2 of us as admin, due to various reason not related to BHS issue, we need to protect the identities of the other members of the team.

 I hope you and others will take the time to read Patricia statement, that she heartfelt gave today. The small Team of Eve have worked very hard over the last 2 week, using there professional skills to collate the data from many sources, as they were all coded, we know that only 20 were generate form original comments from the members page.

 Hope you find the information useful on the page, which can be freely viewed without joining or befriending
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/bhs-meeting-update-signpost.771332/#z2MHqE0lUx0TyADA.99


----------



## ester (2 February 2019)

Given that a lot of the issue with the BHS was the secrecy with which they were conducting themselves and that you want all info to be open to all it then seems pretty ironic that you then opt to keep people secret. Nope not for me thanks.

Patricia's statement addresses very few of queries specifically directed to 'Eve equine' and if you can't be bothered to acknowledge people's concerns or answer them I'll pass on the whole situation thanks.


----------



## Violettears (2 February 2019)

I 


JanetGeorge said:



			Red-1 - you make some good points.  to answer some of them - not using 'quote' as that can get confusing.(To me, at least, lol.)
The reason we went with 'private' was to ensure that only people who have a real interest and share our concerns would have easy access to any planning.  And yes - we knew the risks of a 'mole'.  There have been several attempts to 'dig in' by staff/friends of the CEO.  Member requests were accepted or declined based on several factos other than answer to questions.  A check with a staff/Board list (none of those who tried answered the questions, of course.)  We filtered for 'friends in Group' and 'mutual friends'.  And a bit of gut instinct too.  It was interesting that very few of those who didn't answer questions had friends in the Group.  SOme had some friends in Group AND mutual friends - they got a reminder about questions.  After all, without the questions we would have had at LEAST 3 times more members - and at least some of them would be totally disinterested or addictive joiners of groups.

I agree you with the whipping up of numbers - that was one thing I tried to stop.  The member of the Admin team who did it is now a puppetmaster for Eve Equine.
		
Click to expand...

I mentioned earlier that there was some axe grinding, personal agendas and sour grapes, looks like you have all turned on yourselves. Proves my point...More loss of credibility.


----------



## JanetGeorge (2 February 2019)

Violettears said:



			I

I mentioned earlier that there was some axe grinding, personal agendas and sour grapes, looks like you have all turned on yourselves. Proves my point...More loss of credibility.
		
Click to expand...

You joined HHO after the FB Group was formed - as a result of this thread.  You joined to 'share' your opinions here - 4 months after this thread was started.  You have never posted on HHO - at least as Violettears - except in this thread.  So no-one here 'knows' you.  All your posts have been very negative - one has to wonder why you've bothered.  What IS your agenda, Violettears?


----------



## Rosiejazzandpia (3 February 2019)

I'm completely lost and put off by all this nonsense. I joined the original group to try and make sense of what was going on and what other BHS members were thinking. Now I've received a friend request from eve equine, who I have not accepted and have reported as a fake name on Facebook. Surely members need to stick together and not have silly profiles as a side group. If anyone would like to enlighten me on what's actually happening it will be gladly received, if not then tomorrow I'll leave the Facebook group and forget all about this silliness


----------



## JanetGeorge (3 February 2019)

Rosiejazzandpia said:



			I'm completely lost and put off by all this nonsense. I joined the original group to try and make sense of what was going on and what other BHS members were thinking. Now I've received a friend request from eve equine, who I have not accepted and have reported as a fake name on Facebook. Surely members need to stick together and not have silly profiles as a side group. If anyone would like to enlighten me on what's actually happening it will be gladly received, if not then tomorrow I'll leave the Facebook group and forget all about this silliness
		
Click to expand...

Please don't leave - we are trying to get it sorted and move forward.  Those of you who contributed months ago with concerns made it come together and a couple have worked incredibly hard for results.  Getting people and proxies to the 5th January meeting was the first big achievement - and it was achieved primarily by HHO Members, many of whom used their own FB profiles to spread the word further.  The FB Group brought more into action and gave us a voice.  The passion felt for the issues DID lead to some disagreement and some independent action that made 'the voice' a bit croaky.  That hopefully CAN be fixed so we can move on to utilize our next 'success' .  But it all started here - and thankfully - H&H have allowed free speech despite a lot of pressure from HO to gag us and have this thread removed.

So I'm sure we all would join together in saying Thank YOU to HHO!


----------



## ester (3 February 2019)

Iâ€™m not impressed by the mass turning off of comments.


----------



## Surbie (3 February 2019)

ester said:



			Iâ€™m not impressed by the mass turning off of comments.
		
Click to expand...

No, I'm not either.


----------



## JanetGeorge (3 February 2019)

Surbie said:



			No, I'm not either. Anonymous admin deciding when a topic has run its course, or just that they want to close it, massively cheeses me off. If this is what you wanted to do, you should have set it out earlier. Redirect the conversations with your own posts by all means but policing people like this isn't a good choice.
		
Click to expand...

Surbie - it was a decision taken with some regret (and I was one of those anonymous admins who decided) we should try.  The main reason was that it was making it impossible for most to keep up with NEW posts - or even catch up - because while they were reading a thread and composing an answer someone else had said the same thing on that thread that they were going to say.  And a couple of people were posting exactly the same thing, often irrelevant to the thread in question, purely to bump that thread.  And people were asking questions that had been answered several times because posts were up and down the page like a yo-yo.


----------



## Goldenstar (3 February 2019)

Well this a fine mess is t it .
In my view how dare a group of member say they speak for me ?
They can only speak for themselves .
However I take from this that the BHS is in a right royal mess.
Whatâ€™s going on with the volunteers ? Thereâ€™s always a tension there but long ago the BHS existed to facilitate volunteers to but into the equine community skills for free in the areas they where interested in .
It ,through itâ€™s county committees developed volunteers who did so much great work and gained much from it themselves 

It worked to give excellent training and when you see whatâ€™s happened now that has been diluted you can clearly see that it was .
I simply donâ€™t understand this lack of clarity in the messaging perhaps they need to sell the truck and employ a director of communications who knows their job 
And a word of warning the BHS has always had people who want to hijack the society for their own ends working out the good guys from the bad guys was never easy it clearly remains that why .
I was a volunteer for the BHS for years and years I was a county chairman and I donâ€™t receive emails from them .
Perhaps head office should reflect that they need to fix this fast , I was a serious member of the BHS I require more than a pretty facile magazine to keep me interested .


----------



## Red-1 (3 February 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Surbie - it was a decision taken with some regret (and I was one of those anonymous admins who decided) we should try.  The main reason was that it was making it impossible for most to keep up with NEW posts - or even catch up - because while they were reading a thread and composing an answer someone else had said the same thing on that thread that they were going to say.  And a couple of people were posting exactly the same thing, often irrelevant to the thread in question, purely to bump that thread.  And people were asking questions that had been answered several times because posts were up and down the page like a yo-yo.
		
Click to expand...

But this is what happens in a group open to discussion to the public. 
Rather like on here when a thread is derailed. 
The forum would poorer for it if a thread was closed/deleted every time an OP took against what was said. 

IMO it is wrong to say the group is for 'discussion' and then shut down every thread whenever an admin decides they don't approve of what is said. 

Censorship is dangerous.

If you prefer to have a page where you are in control then why not have a page that is view only. Then you can pose questions and ask for replies by PM. 

I think it is incongruous with the aim of finding out people's views if you shut down the threads. 

Obviously something is not working currently, as the FB group has more posts about how the group is run than about the actual issue at hand.


----------



## ester (3 February 2019)

Turning off comments gives a message of we donâ€™t want you to carry on speaking and discussing stuff and removes the opportunity for people to respond directly to things that have been said.

To me it is completely unacceptable, even more so given the reasons this started.

To suggest that itâ€™s because people couldnâ€™t keep up is frankly ridiculous and somewhat insulting. If I can keep up with multiple threads on here a few threads on Facebook is pretty easy!


----------



## Goldenstar (3 February 2019)

ester said:



			Turning off comments gives a message of we donâ€™t want you to carry on speaking and discussing stuff and removes the opportunity for people to respond directly to things that have been said.

To me it is completely unacceptable, even more so given the reasons this started.

To suggest that itâ€™s because people couldnâ€™t keep up is frankly ridiculous and somewhat insulting. If I can keep up with multiple threads on here a few threads on Facebook is pretty easy!
		
Click to expand...

I agree it makes you question the agenda .
And you are right  just remember one of the first complaints on this thread was  about the BHS attitude to unhelpful views .
Also surely itâ€™s a good thing if those involved at head quarters look at things like the Facebook page and threads like this one they need to see what people think .
Thinking itâ€™s ok to shut them off from doing that is ridiculous given the nature of peopleâ€™s fears about whatâ€™s going on .
Makes itâ€™s very easy for them to dismiss al this  as being just a few malcontents with an agenda of their own .


----------



## ester (3 February 2019)

The statement on the group that says they will continue to do so when constructive debate has finished makes me deeply uncomfortable.


----------



## JanetGeorge (3 February 2019)

ester said:



			The statement on the group that says they will continue to do so when constructive debate has finished makes me deeply uncomfortable.
		
Click to expand...

Help me here - which statement are you referring to?


----------



## Surbie (3 February 2019)

'Once a topic has been answered and run for further opinions it will be turned off when constructive debate has finished. '

This is the one I disagree with. It's in the post from one of the moderators, posted at 1am when lots of the other threads were closed, I assume by them.

I don't support personal attacks, repeat posts or bad behaviour, but this is an over-reaction. It's standard form for the poster to be able to request or turn off comments on their posts, not for admin to do so whenever they decide.


----------



## Violettears (3 February 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			You joined HHO after the FB Group was formed - as a result of this thread.  You joined to 'share' your opinions here - 4 months after this thread was started.  You have never posted on HHO - at least as Violettears - except in this thread.  So no-one here 'knows' you.  All your posts have been very negative - one has to wonder why you've bothered.  What IS your agenda, Violettears?
		
Click to expand...

There you have it... I rest my case. You donâ€™t like anotherâ€™s view, and you shut off anyone who is complimentary about the BHS, albeit there may be some things that need attention. My agenda is quite simple, to allow all views, without aggression or shutting off. IMO with your last comment, your credibility continues to go down rather quickly!


----------



## D66 (3 February 2019)

Im on the verge of resigning from the BHS.  I can see they don't want to engage with their membership and they don't properly support volunteering. IMO there seems to be a lot of things that need attention and they can sort it out without my financial contribution.


----------



## ester (3 February 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Help me here - which statement are you referring to?
		
Click to expand...

Thereâ€™s only been one statement after the mass turning off of comments.

What surbie says, the response to the concern about that is also very disappointing.


----------



## JanetGeorge (3 February 2019)

Surbie said:



			'Once a topic has been answered and run for further opinions it will be turned off when constructive debate has finished. '

This is the one I disagree with. It's in the post from one of the moderators, posted at 1am when lots of the other threads were closed, I assume by them.

I don't support personal attacks, repeat posts or bad behaviour, but this is an over-reaction. It's standard form for the poster to be able to request or turn off comments on their posts, not for admin to do so whenever they decide.
		
Click to expand...

Actually, Surbie - it is standard Admin control on a number of FB Groups where I am NOT Admin - and 9 times out of 10, as an ordinary member of that group, I welcome it.  It is far easier to keep up with a thread on a forum like HHO than it is with contentious subjects on FB.  Having a poll on each thread the Admin THINKS needs closing to keep newer relevant posts near the top would be impossible.


----------



## ester (3 February 2019)

whereas I am only on one fb group that sometimes does it (TE), and that bugs me too. I'm on a lot of groups and it's more often that they have the opposite in that comments aren't to be switched off.


----------



## Surbie (3 February 2019)

I didn't suggest a poll. None of the 15 or so FB groups I am in close threads without the OP asking for it or closing it themselves as far as I can see, and some of them have a lot of whittering. 

I still think it's a heavy-handed approach and it does give the wrong message. Am not going to reply again, as it appears pointless, we don't agree.


----------



## JanetGeorge (3 February 2019)

ester said:



			whereas I am only on one fb group that sometimes does it (TE), and that bugs me too. I'm on a lot of groups and it's more often that they have the opposite in that comments aren't to be switched off.
		
Click to expand...

I'll bet they're not contentious Groups though, ester.  Some Groups I pop into have few members who actually post - and have no need.  As in one OP, maybe 1 reply 5 days ago.  So the OP post again to boost it to the top - when it was only 3rd to start with.  But the BHS Members Group was having a huge number of new posts and loads of replies very fast - and a lot of those replies were from the same 1 or 2 people that said NOTHING new.  Some members in bad satellite areas were crashing repeatedly.  (I certainly was.)


----------



## ycbm (3 February 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			I'll bet they're not contentious Groups though, ester.  Some Groups I pop into have few members who actually post - and have no need.  As in one OP, maybe 1 reply 5 days ago.  So the OP post again to boost it to the top - when it was only 3rd to start with.  But the BHS Members Group was having a huge number of new posts and loads of replies very fast - and a lot of those replies were from the same 1 or 2 people that said NOTHING new.  Some members in bad satellite areas were crashing repeatedly.  (I certainly was.)
		
Click to expand...


The traffic on a Facebook page has nothing to do with your satellite service failing. We're all on a very few satellites, getting the same service,  and the atmospheric conditions affect them badly because of the dish. I haven't been on your site, and mine has been iffy.

There is no way that the traffic on your BHS Facebook page is causing a Facebook server to crash, either. This is extremely unlikely to be related to demand, which in the whole scheme of Facebook is miniscule. 

The answer to your problem on the site is to let the discussion run until people are out of steam, then summarise the key points. 

Suppressing debate, as you are finding, does nothing but make you look just like the people you are criticising.


----------



## ester (3 February 2019)

Some of them certainly are. What you are describing was only happening yesterday which was a rather extraordinary for the group, no need to threaten people with closing future posts. Iâ€™ll just read stuff on here where people are free to post as they like. 

And even though it was different yesterday it really wasnâ€™t that fast compared to other groups, I have no issue with posts moving around in order and I cant be the only one. I donâ€™t possess any particularly special skills.


----------



## Lovethebeach (3 February 2019)

As far as I can see, the topics that were closed for comments HAD run their course and the same people were making their comment over and over again to different people, therefore notification coming in for me only to read the same old comment !. I for one was losing the will to live with all the notifications pinging up and did complain of it and was very glad when Janet turned them off and they ceased. I can't see that any relevant on going debates were closed ? The whole thing is meant to be about what we want from the BHS, NOT who agrees with whom.  I am a member of several groups where your post has to be approved by admin before it even appears, doesn't bother me, if I don't broadly agree with the aims of that group why on earth would I be in it or follow in the first place. Just don't have time for all this bickering lol !!!!!!!!!


----------



## fidleyspromise (3 February 2019)

Is the FB group still there then as I was a member of it and can no longer find it?


----------



## JanetGeorge (4 February 2019)

fidleyspromise said:



			Is the FB group still there then as I was a member of it and can no longer find it?
		
Click to expand...

If you mean the original - it's definitely up and running!  https://www.facebook.com/groups/membersBHS/


----------



## gunnergundog (4 February 2019)

It would appear that the original Eve Equine page was pulled by facebook on 2nd.  They now have another page that as of this morning boasts 34 members.  In my view, they represent those 34 members and those 34 members alone.  They do not represent those who are/were part of the original group as they are no longer communicating with them.  If they go ahead with a private meeting with the BHS it will be a complete and utter farce.

My suggestion to the original group is that a communication should be sent to both the BHS and Eve Equine stating that Eve is no longer representing the 900 plus members of the original group (assuming this is what everyone wants!), thereby immediately pulling the rug from under their feet.


----------



## JanetGeorge (4 February 2019)

gunnergundog said:



			It would appear that the original Eve Equine page was pulled by facebook on 2nd.  They now have another page that as of this morning boasts 34 members.  In my view, they represent those 34 members and those 34 members alone.  They do not represent those who are/were part of the original group as they are no longer communicating with them.  If they go ahead with a private meeting with the BHS it will be a complete and utter farce.

My suggestion to the original group is that a communication should be sent to both the BHS and Eve Equine stating that Eve is no longer representing the 900 plus members of the original group (assuming this is what everyone wants!), thereby immediately pulling the rug from under their feet.
		
Click to expand...


Thank you gunnergundog (great name!)  Unfortunately, this immediate problem has happened because of a breakdown in communication and agreement about the way forward (and just think what happens if that happens with a dog - or a horse.  (Especially with an aggressive, randy terrier - or a horse that has suffered pain associated with being ridden.  The result - if there IS that breakdown and poor communication - tends to be fight or flight.  When it happens between people who share a passion for a cause - it's far harder to get communication back - and then get agreement.  At present, there's a lot of shouting and not a lot of listening from a small number of the original members.


----------



## Leo Walker (4 February 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			I'll bet they're not contentious Groups though, ester.  Some Groups I pop into have few members who actually post - and have no need.  As in one OP, maybe 1 reply 5 days ago.  So the OP post again to boost it to the top - when it was only 3rd to start with.  But the BHS Members Group was having a huge number of new posts and loads of replies very fast - and a lot of those replies were from the same 1 or 2 people that said NOTHING new.  Some members in bad satellite areas were crashing repeatedly.  (I certainly was.)
		
Click to expand...

What does your poor internet connection have to do with the group? It sounds really annoying but its not really relevant as theres a team of admin so if you cant get on then I'm sure they can cope. The group really wasnt having a huge number of posts. Some groups have multiple posts a minute, and no one turns off commenting. You say the original members arent listening, but neither are the current admin team.

Its all a mess. No one is representing themselves well and people are walking away rather than be drawn into the drama. If you cant sort this out between yourselves what hope do you have of doing anything else?


----------



## JanetGeorge (4 February 2019)

Leo Walker said:



			What does your poor internet connection have to do with the group? It sounds really annoying but its not really relevant as theres a team of admin so if you cant get on then I'm sure they can cope. The group really wasnt having a huge number of posts. Some groups have multiple posts a minute, and no one turns off commenting. You say the original members arent listening, but neither are the current admin team.

Its all a mess. No one is representing themselves well and people are walking away rather than be drawn into the drama. If you cant sort this out between yourselves what hope do you have of doing anything else?
		
Click to expand...

Leo - you're obviously not following as closely.  The Admin team is down to 3 at present - we all have other outside jobs.  But we are listening to members - a lot of it in individual PMs and phone when Members are at risk.  We (Admin team) are doing our utmost to listen, think and communicate with memers so they can make a decision.  Very few members have left.  Some are just watching and waiting, a few seem to have a personal agenda (though that might be my paranoia showing. )  All we can do is the best we can do.


----------



## JanetGeorge (5 February 2019)

An update:  BRC volunteers have received by e-mail a not too subtle 'reminder' about policy on Social Media.  Interesting timing.


----------



## JanetGeorge (6 February 2019)

It all started on this thread - finally - a good result and gives us an even heftier kick-start to change.  You'll have to register - but worth the read.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...Li6McSS9wbozPIxrxJjqCE07MakJEyaPJWejghS0fCsko


----------



## Violettears (7 February 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			It all started on this thread - finally - a good result and gives us an even heftier kick-start to change.  You'll have to register - but worth the read.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...Li6McSS9wbozPIxrxJjqCE07MakJEyaPJWejghS0fCsko

Click to expand...

As I said right from the start, personal agendas, axe grinding with sour grapes thrown in. So obvious!  The BHS are an amazing charity and have my full support. Rubbish sensationalism, and awful journalism!


----------



## JanetGeorge (7 February 2019)

Violettears said:



			As I said right from the start, personal agendas, axe grinding with sour grapes thrown in. So obvious!  The BHS are an amazing charity and have my full support. Rubbish sensationalism, and awful journalism!
		
Click to expand...

Gee -and with 15 posts to your 'credit' - and joined to do your own version of axe grinding.  I really do think there is a whiff of something there, lol.


----------



## JanetGeorge (7 February 2019)

And the latest story in the Telegraph today:    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...WgL9P-OFA_KFM4MrOM98fLajWoLVYL3vXiLjfbMTL1odI


----------



## ViolettaTears (8 February 2019)

So my membership money is paying for CLUB CLASS travel for the CEO and Chairman.  Economy return tickets to China cost as little as Â£300. Terrible, shocking waste of charity money! They must pay back the difference from their own pockets in the same way the CEO was allowed to pay back the money she continued to receive for her car allowance. Given the 'toxic' environment I'm guessing if any other member of staff had done that they'd have been sacked on the spot. Did the CEO still claim for her taxis and train fares whilst banned.....?? And all of this during the Dead Slow Campaign. So close to cutting up my membership card after 22 years and sending it back. Club Class on Charity Money. I bet the CEO at World Horse Welfare doesn't travel club class!


----------



## ycbm (8 February 2019)

Violet Tears,  Janet George has the courage to post under her own name. Since you are supporting the BHS, you have absolutely nothing to lose, and I think you should do the same.

You joined the forum purely to campaign for the BHS. Have the guts to say who you are.


----------



## PAK (8 February 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			So my membership money is paying for CLUB CLASS travel for the CEO and Chairman.  Economy return tickets to China cost as little as Â£300. Terrible, shocking waste of charity money! They must pay back the difference from their own pockets in the same way the CEO was allowed to pay back the money she continued to receive for her car allowance. Given the 'toxic' environment I'm guessing if any other member of staff had done that they'd have been sacked on the spot. Did the CEO still claim for her taxis and train fares whilst banned.....?? And all of this during the Dead Slow Campaign. So close to cutting up my membership card after 22 years and sending it back. Club Class on Charity Money. I bet the CEO at World Horse Welfare doesn't travel club class!
		
Click to expand...

And more often than not the chairs of other charities take no remuneration.


----------



## PAK (8 February 2019)

How does one reconcile the statements and facts within today's article?
And sadly there was a precedence for a BHS employee being banned from driving. Except that poor person was sacked immediately.


----------



## PAK (8 February 2019)

It's in the public domain. The CEO's salary is roughly the same as that of the head of the RSPCA. However the BHS brings in about Â£11 Million from members while the RSPCA brings in about Â£100 Million.


----------



## PAK (8 February 2019)

xxx


----------



## PAK (8 February 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			So my membership money is paying for CLUB CLASS travel for the CEO and Chairman.  Economy return tickets to China cost as little as Â£300. Terrible, shocking waste of charity money! They must pay back the difference from their own pockets in the same way the CEO was allowed to pay back the money she continued to receive for her car allowance. Given the 'toxic' environment I'm guessing if any other member of staff had done that they'd have been sacked on the spot. Did the CEO still claim for her taxis and train fares whilst banned.....?? And all of this during the Dead Slow Campaign. So close to cutting up my membership card after 22 years and sending it back. Club Class on Charity Money. I bet the CEO at World Horse Welfare doesn't travel club class!
		
Click to expand...

Â£3000


----------



## PAK (8 February 2019)

PAK said:



			It's in the public domain. The CEO's salary is roughly the same as that of the head of the RSPCA. However the BHS brings in about Â£11 Million from members while the RSPCA brings in about Â£100 Million.
		
Click to expand...

I forgot to add - instead of selling insurance as primary means of raising money - the RSPCA have to fundraise for their Â£100 Million.


----------



## PAK (8 February 2019)

Just had another look at the BHS website to see if there is any statement about the Telegraph coverage. Have a look at bhs.org.uk. A photo of a car crash flanked by an advert for membership. How ironic.


----------



## JanetGeorge (8 February 2019)

Another story in the Telegraph which is related to our cause:  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion...NZyUxCyD3fS0U9cWGAZBVzx2W2sO1zZcPkL8MJHUm2dCY


----------



## JanetGeorge (8 February 2019)

And THIS latest story is going to make our friends at the Telegraph happy little bunnies.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business...HvdWKf2oGOmfcU1vpe9V2OJSq0tF2VyteyW02ZqDieoRM


----------



## onemoretime (8 February 2019)

PAK said:



			How does one reconcile the statements and facts within today's article?
And sadly there was a precedence for a BHS employee being banned from driving. Except that poor person was sacked immediately.
		
Click to expand...

That's disgusting!!  God this lot need taking apart!


----------



## Abitofhonesty (8 February 2019)

PAK said:



			I forgot to add - instead of selling insurance as primary means of raising money - the RSPCA have to fundraise for their Â£100 Million.
		
Click to expand...

The RSPCA encompasses all animals. Itâ€™s ability to raise funds is far easier for them than a niche organisation, concerned with one species, like the BHS. The idea of insurance being included in the membership was an inspired means to raise funds imho.


----------



## Abitofhonesty (8 February 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Another story in the Telegraph which is related to our cause:  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion...NZyUxCyD3fS0U9cWGAZBVzx2W2sO1zZcPkL8MJHUm2dCY

Click to expand...

Sorry! Not sure I understand how Phillip Green ties in. Is it the BHS name thing?


----------



## JanetGeorge (8 February 2019)

Abitofhonesty said:



			Sorry! Not sure I understand how Phillip Green ties in. Is it the BHS name thing?
		
Click to expand...

lol, that's just a handy co-incidence.  Sir Philip covered up allegations of sexual harassment of his female staff with NDAs and pay-offs.  He then went to war with The Telegraph to keep THEM quiet.  The Telegraph has finally won - Sir Philip will have to cough up Â£3 million to cover their legal costs (+ his own, of course)  And the Telegraph will be running some embarrassing stories, of course.  The judgement stopped a little short of ideal from OUR point of view.  It did not give total protection to those who have signed NDAs as a result of harassment or bullying.  And didn't open the doors for full disclosure.  But it's a good start.  IMHO - and fortunately - that of many politicians - NDAs should be very restricted to purely protection of business 'secrets' - and NOT be allowed as a cover-up for any behaviour that would be frowned upon.  I am still checking numbers on how many employees of OUR BHS have signed NDAs after being forced out for daring to question management decisions and being repaid with bullying and harassment.  But it would appear at least 6 in the past 7 years.  Some of those people had been excellent and valued employees for FAR longer than the current 'bosses'.


----------



## onemoretime (8 February 2019)

PAK said:



			It's in the public domain. The CEO's salary is roughly the same as that of the head of the RSPCA. However the BHS brings in about Â£11 Million from members while the RSPCA brings in about Â£100 Million.
		
Click to expand...

You're joking - the RSPCA brings in a Â£100 million a year, I never realised that and they are always making out that they are hard up and need more handouts!!


----------



## JanetGeorge (8 February 2019)

onemoretime said:



			You're joking - the RSPCA brings in a Â£100 million a year, I never realised that and they are always making out that they are hard up and need more handouts!!
		
Click to expand...

Nope - figures for 2017 show
    Income Â£140,877,000  ----  Spending Â£129,398,000      A large chunk of that was legacies and donations.

  For the same year, the BHS was:
       Income Â£11,205,000     --- Spending Â£11,807,000   More than 3/4 of that income was from Membership subscriptions.  I think that gives members a RIGHT to have a say in how it is spent.


----------



## Abitofhonesty (10 February 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Nope - figures for 2017 show
    Income Â£140,877,000  ----  Spending Â£129,398,000      A large chunk of that was legacies and donations.

  For the same year, the BHS was:
       Income Â£11,205,000     --- Spending Â£11,807,000   More than 3/4 of that income was from Membership subscriptions.  I think that gives members a RIGHT to have a say in how it is spent.

Click to expand...

Interesting comment.


JanetGeorge said:



			lol, that's just a handy co-incidence.  Sir Philip covered up allegations of sexual harassment of his female staff with NDAs and pay-offs.  He then went to war with The Telegraph to keep THEM quiet.  The Telegraph has finally won - Sir Philip will have to cough up Â£3 million to cover their legal costs (+ his own, of course)  And the Telegraph will be running some embarrassing stories, of course.  The judgement stopped a little short of ideal from OUR point of view.  It did not give total protection to those who have signed NDAs as a result of harassment or bullying.  And didn't open the doors for full disclosure.  But it's a good start.  IMHO - and fortunately - that of many politicians - NDAs should be very restricted to purely protection of business 'secrets' - and NOT be allowed as a cover-up for any behaviour that would be frowned upon.  I am still checking numbers on how many employees of OUR BHS have signed NDAs after being forced out for daring to question management decisions and being repaid with bullying and harassment.  But it would appear at least 6 in the past 7 years.  Some of those people had been excellent and valued employees for FAR longer than the current 'bosses'.
		
Click to expand...




JanetGeorge said:



			lol, that's just a handy co-incidence.  Sir Philip covered up allegations of sexual harassment of his female staff with NDAs and pay-offs.  He then went to war with The Telegraph to keep THEM quiet.  The Telegraph has finally won - Sir Philip will have to cough up Â£3 million to cover their legal costs (+ his own, of course)  And the Telegraph will be running some embarrassing stories, of course.  The judgement stopped a little short of ideal from OUR point of view.  It did not give total protection to those who have signed NDAs as a result of harassment or bullying.  And didn't open the doors for full disclosure.  But it's a good start.  IMHO - and fortunately - that of many politicians - NDAs should be very restricted to purely protection of business 'secrets' - and NOT be allowed as a cover-up for any behaviour that would be frowned upon.  I am still checking numbers on how many employees of OUR BHS have signed NDAs after being forced out for daring to question management decisions and being repaid with bullying and harassment.  But it would appear at least 6 in the past 7 years.  Some of those people had been excellent and valued employees for FAR longer than the current 'bosses'.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting comment and thank you for being so thorough. Iâ€™m extremely uncomfortable with anyone being likened to how Philip Green has conducted himself. Any parallels just sounds like sensationalism to me. I understand the purpose of an nda from both parties is to bring closure to a matter. One side accepts money offered to them to sign a contract saying they will not discuss a situation any further. If we start building caveats into ndaâ€™s then there purpose is undermined and open to abuse from all parties. Imagine an open ended scenario where a disgruntled employee can still blackmail a company for evermore because they have a clause allowing them to do so. Two sides and all that imho.


----------



## JanetGeorge (10 February 2019)

Abitofhonesty said:



			Interesting comment.

Interesting comment and thank you for being so thorough. Iâ€™m extremely uncomfortable with anyone being likened to how Philip Green has conducted himself. Any parallels just sounds like sensationalism to me. I understand the purpose of an nda from both parties is to bring closure to a matter. One side accepts money offered to them to sign a contract saying they will not discuss a situation any further. If we start building caveats into ndaâ€™s then there purpose is undermined and open to abuse from all parties. Imagine an open ended scenario where a disgruntled employee can still blackmail a company for evermore because they have a clause allowing them to do so. Two sides and all that imho.
		
Click to expand...

But NDAs were NEVER intended to allow unacceptable behaviour to be covered up - so that behaviour can continue.  A disgruntled employee - if they have reason to BE disgruntled - cannot 'blackmail' an employer.  If complaints are handled 'by the book', the employer has a clear conscience and doesn't need to pay an employee to keep quiet.


----------



## JanetGeorge (12 February 2019)

The first hint of success for our campaign:  an e-mail sent to BHS Members today - some members do not get e-mails so read it here:

Dear Member,  

As you may know, the Board recently proposed some amendments to the British Horse Societyâ€™s Articles of Association, and these were scheduled to be put to a vote at the general meeting held on 5 January. During the meeting, members had the opportunity to comment on the proposed changes, and members asked the Board of Trustees to consider various issues. A resolution to adjourn the meeting was then passed, to allow more time for those issues to be considered.

 The Board of Trustees has two options: 1.    Decide to reconvene the meeting and ask the members to reconsider the original amendments;  or 2.    Decide to adjourn the meeting indefinitely in order to consider different amendments or none  We have decided to adjourn the meeting indefinitely. That means the vote on the changes to the Articles proposed at that meeting will not go ahead, and a new general meeting will be proposed in due course, at which any proposed changes would be considered afresh. 

In the meantime, the Board of Trustees would like to invite members to contribute to the development of the Boardâ€™s plans for the future strategy of The British Horse Society, including the governance issues raised on 5 January. We plan to hold informal meetings, the first three alongside our 2019 National Conventions, at the times and venues below, and would like to extend an open invitation to all members. The meetings will be a chance for the Board and Executive to bring members into the discussion about the future strategy for The British Horse Society, and to allow members to ask questions and give their views. Date     Location     Time Tuesday 26 March     Hartpury College, Gloucester     7.00pm to 9.00pm Tuesday 9 April     Morris Equestrian Centre, Kilmarnock     7.00pm to 9.00pm Tuesday 14 May     Cavan Equestrian, Ireland     7.00pm to 9.00pm Tuesday 16 July     The British Horse Society offices, Warwickshire     10.30 am to 12.30pm

 We look forward to meeting you. Best wishes, David Sheerin Chairman of the Board of Trustees Tel: 02476 840500 Email: generalmeeting@bhs.org.uk


----------



## JanetGeorge (13 February 2019)

And today:  
The latest e-mail today was sent to Members of BHS - and our FB Group - who had originally signed the letter we sent.  This was how it started:  it was from the Chairman.

"Further to our invitation to meet with you on Friday 28 February from 10 to 12, at the BHS offices, I would like to confirm that the meeting will be attended by myself, some Trustees, Lynn Petersen CEO and members of the Executive. This meeting will give you the opportunity for us to discuss some of the issues which are causing you concern. I would like us to agree on the agenda before the meeting and would welcome suggestions for items which you would like included. The original invitation was for circa five members, named in the original email, to attend the meeting. Please can you advise the names of those who will be attending." 

The balance of the e-mail was the bumph about Regional Meetings later - still some BIG parts of the country where a meeting is NOT scheduled.

Obviously this response - and the statement of who will/can attend is totally unacceptable to us.


----------



## ester (13 February 2019)

I still can't quite believe they've opted for HQ and hartpury to both hold meetings.


----------



## JanetGeorge (13 February 2019)

ester said:



			I still can't quite believe they've opted for HQ and hartpury to both hold meetings.
		
Click to expand...


Ah - but it's convenient for them.  Wales and a lot of other areas have been left out.


----------



## ester (13 February 2019)

The whole north, south and east of England essentially! I think many of the Welsh will be closer to Hartpury than most of the English.


----------



## ViolettaTears (14 February 2019)

Daily Telegraph .... two articles ... massive page 3 story and how do the Horse and Hound report it???? Of course not because of the advertising revenue at risk if they did  .... so much for balanced and fair reporting  #1984 and for my fellow horsey friends who kindly asked me (I note they don't all reveal who they are) I don't want to become another sacked volunteer thank you very much! I hear the CEO turned left yet again on her BA flight from T5 out to China this week where she is presenting at 2pm Hong Kong time.  No more club class travel on charity money - shame on you British Horse Society for frittering away thousands on club class travel when a return can be bought for several thousands pounds.


----------



## Violettears (14 February 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			Daily Telegraph .... two articles ... massive page 3 story and how do the Horse and Hound report it???? Of course not because of the advertising revenue at risk if they did  .... so much for balanced and fair reporting  #1984 and for my fellow horsey friends who kindly asked me (I note they don't all reveal who they are) I don't want to become another sacked volunteer thank you very much! I hear the CEO turned left yet again on her BA flight from T5 out to China this week where she is presenting at 2pm Hong Kong time.  No more club class travel on charity money - shame on you British Horse Society for frittering away thousands on club class travel when a return can be bought for several thousands pounds.
		
Click to expand...

And shame on you Violetta for writing such â€˜toshâ€™!


----------



## JanetGeorge (15 February 2019)

Violettears said:



			And shame on you Violetta for writing such â€˜toshâ€™!
		
Click to expand...

Tosh seems to come from you, Violettears - maybe one day you'll wake up and LOOK at facts.  Or maybe not.


----------



## View (15 February 2019)

ester said:



			The whole north, south and east of England essentially! I think many of the Welsh will be closer to Hartpury than most of the English.
		
Click to expand...

Fortunately, I will be visiting family in Scotland and have already booked to attend the Convention at Morris EC, so will be attending the meeting there.  Makes a change for something to actually work out like this for me.


----------



## onemoretime (15 February 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Tosh seems to come from you, Violettears - maybe one day you'll wake up and LOOK at facts.  Or maybe not.
		
Click to expand...

I think there is more behind this violettears than she lets on, perhaps she is from HO!!


----------



## Velcrobum (15 February 2019)

onemoretime said:



			I think there is more behind this violettears than she lets on, perhaps she is from HO!!
		
Click to expand...

I have also wondered if there was an agenda behind the posts!!!!


----------



## Violettears (15 February 2019)

onemoretime said:



			I think there is more behind this violettears than she lets on, perhaps she is from HO!!
		
Click to expand...

What is HO???


----------



## Tiddlypom (15 February 2019)

Head Office.


----------



## JanetGeorge (19 February 2019)

It appears that one message from the members IS starting to get through.  There is now public notification that Nominations for the Board are now open.  Of course, nominees still have to cope with the Nominations Committee before Members get a chance to vote.  https://www.mi-nomination.com/bhs?u...JjGCrZ7O9Wu1rUwCVg_OHqwskFweZMydi5lB9P1Ka98fs


----------



## PAK (20 February 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			It appears that one message from the members IS starting to get through.  There is now public notification that Nominations for the Board are now open.  Of course, nominees still have to cope with the Nominations Committee before Members get a chance to vote.  https://www.mi-nomination.com/bhs?u...JjGCrZ7O9Wu1rUwCVg_OHqwskFweZMydi5lB9P1Ka98fs

Click to expand...

Rejoin the BHS and apply. Put your skills and experience to the best use.


----------



## JanetGeorge (21 February 2019)

SO much NEW information coming to light - for those who can find it, lol.

The one that fascinated me was the justification for that very expensive lorries.  Apparently, this one is essential for use at the Castration Clinics.  And gee, my vet could do at least half a dozen at a time out of the back of his car.


----------



## JanetGeorge (22 February 2019)

The Group's response to the offer of a meeting (with unacceptable conditions) has now been sent to The Chairman.

"
Dear Chairman,

Many thanks for the invitation for representatives from our group to meet with yourself and board members on the 28th February. After due consideration, we have decided to decline at this stage. Iâ€™m afraid your suggestions on how the meeting on 28th would be run, and who would attend, are totally unsatisfactory to those members who signed the original letter about our concerns, and also to the members of our FB Group which currently numbers in excess of 900. Among that group are some former members who have ceased their membership as a result of the unacceptable behaviour towards them. A Chief Executive and staff are responsible to the Trustees; the Trustees are in turn responsible to the Members/shareholders. Far too many Members are frightened to speak out publicly â€“ some of whom are volunteers who have been â€˜sackedâ€™ and have no comeback. At least staff members have some chance of redress and even some compensation.

If you, Mr. Chairman, and your fellow Trustees really want to address Membersâ€™ concerns then we would be happy to attend a meeting with you and your fellow Trustees â€“ but with no staff present. We would also require your assurance that none of us would be the victims of harassment and bullying by staff as a result of our attempts to seek positive change. We do however note that there are now a series of regional meetings planned to give members better access to the Trustees and to ask questions of them in person. You will no doubt be aware of the subjects that the members of the group have been raising their concerns over, and the questions that they have that have arisen from those discussions - will those present at the open meetings be prepared to discuss & provide answers to the following topics?

1. What steps are being taken to ensure that both staff and volunteers are treated in an acceptable manner?

2. What steps are being taken to control expenditure on projects that do not appear to have been adequately explained? For example - the BHS inroads into China and the UAE in education matters (where welfare is an insurmountable problem!) These are claimed to be self-funding - but the accounts carry no information on income/expenditure.

3. While some information has recently been given on the usage of the small lorry (financed by SEIB award of funds) there is nothing that can be found on the very expensive big lorry, its total capital costs or its total running costs. What was the business case for it, and why are the funds budgeted for it's maintenance and running not shown in the accounts?

4. The commissioning of the puppet generated a huge initial expense. How was it deployed and what are the future plans for its use?

If the answers to these questions are forthcoming - either by e-mail or at the public meetings - a future meeting between Members of our Group and the Trustees (only) may no longer be necessary. While it is regrettable that a situation arose whereby members deemed it necessary to form an action group, it is to be hoped that the Trustees are now aware that there is huge interest in how the society is run and how the funds are spent within the core membership, and this should be borne in mind by them going forwards.

Sincerely,

Members of the BHS Membersâ€™ Group


----------



## Velcrobum (22 February 2019)

Excellent response, the letter to the membership was published in H&H today so I feel the January meeting did do something positive and hopefully there will be change in transparency and membership information. The nominations committee leaps to mind!!!!


----------



## JanetGeorge (22 February 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			Excellent response, the letter to the membership was published in H&H today so I feel the January meeting did do something positive and hopefully there will be change in transparency and membership information. The nominations committee leaps to mind!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Apparently, there will nw be an 'approved' FBHS on the Nominations Committee - but with no vote!!!!


----------



## Velcrobum (23 February 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Apparently, there will nw be an 'approved' FBHS on the Nominations Committee - but with no vote!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Thats about as much use as a chocolate teapot if they do not have a vote. A bit insulting to the Fellows IMHO.


----------



## onemoretime (23 February 2019)

I cant see much change whilst the current Board and CEO are in office to be honest - leopard spots!!!


----------



## PAK (23 February 2019)

Do we know if the Trustees even know about the letters and data sent to them in January? Do we know if they know about the reply JG sent above - or the ones sent from individuals?


----------



## JanetGeorge (26 February 2019)

PAK said:



			Do we know if the Trustees even know about the letters and data sent to them in January? Do we know if they know about the reply JG sent above - or the ones sent from individuals?
		
Click to expand...

I think we can be pretty sure the Chairman has kept his fellow Trustees informed - and I'd bet that each of them have friends who would help too.  Some of them might not be on FB themselves, but I'd bet most of them have friends who are members of the Group.  And this thread has had well over 100,000 views now.  They'll be asking questions!


----------



## PAK (26 February 2019)

I do hope so. It is established that in the past people have not been kept informed - nor asked questions.


----------



## JanetGeorge (27 February 2019)

We have had a very prompt reply from the Chairman to the e-mail sent last Friday declining the meeting under their 'arrangements'.  Of course it came with a confidentiality warning - so I won't copy & paste here, but my reply (his e-mail was sent by me due to a glitch with the Group e-mail and their e-mail security.)  You'll get the gist, lol.


Dear David

I apologize for any confusion caused by my e-mail. It was a last minute action when BHS mimecast repeatedly â€˜bouncedâ€™ the e-mail address for the Group, no longer the one previously used as the members who held it had left the Group. I was acting as an Admin of the Group â€“ and you are right â€“ I am one of many members who left the BHS (after 35 years as a member) in 2015. You are no doubt aware that I worked for the BHS for 3 years, first as Head of PR and then as Acting CE after the necessary but sudden departure of Hywel Davies.

Only two of the signatories of the Groupâ€™s first letter have now left the Group â€“ the rest â€“ and all Members of the Group â€“ have approved both the action and the letter you received.

We are aware of the Meetings â€“ I think perhaps MANY BHS members (in addition to those in the Group) find their locations unhelpful â€“ two very close together â€“ and two wide apart but not helpful to those not living anywhere near them. The questions we have asked are reasonable, and I would suggest the answers should be made public rather than confined to a private meeting. Just as I would suggest that news that Nominations for the Board elections are now open should be on the front page, rather than deeply â€˜buriedâ€™. There will be many more questions from the Group, which is steadily growing â€“ despite our requirement to answer two very relevant questions satisfactorily. 950 members now â€“ more than 800 of them current members â€“ the remainder, ex-members who would LIKE to rejoin if they saw action to correct the problems identified.

I note your requirement to have your e-mail treated as confidential. I will have to report the basic facts of it to the Group â€“ and will also include my reply on their behalf.

Please contact me if you require any further information. The Groupâ€™s e-mail is members@ukhorse.org â€“ the bounce message is below if you wish to contact the Group directly.

regards
Janet George


----------



## honetpot (27 February 2019)

Looking what they want from of a Trustee,
https://www.mi-nomination.com/bhs?u...821-291680-BHS+Election+of+the+Board+Trustees

remember, its an unpaid position and the Charities Commission, do not ask for this level of  specific knowledge, more knowledge about the duties and responsibilities of being a Trustee, there is a pretty small pool of BHS members eligible to apply.

 Then you have the hurdle of who would want to apply. Then you have to get through the nominations committee, and then there could be a vote, where most of the people likely to be present are BHS employee. About 130 work in the offices and could be members, allowed to vote.
 So they can say no one wants to be a Trustee, or they are not suitable. This then allows them to co-opt people to the Trust Board who are not even BHS members.


----------



## PAK (28 February 2019)

honetpot said:



			Looking what they want from of a Trustee,
https://www.mi-nomination.com/bhs?u...821-291680-BHS+Election+of+the+Board+Trustees

remember, its an unpaid position and the Charities Commission, do not ask for this level of  specific knowledge, more knowledge about the duties and responsibilities of being a Trustee, there is a pretty small pool of BHS members eligible to apply.

Then you have the hurdle of who would want to apply. Then you have to get through the nominations committee, and then there could be a vote, where most of the people likely to be present are BHS employee. About 130 work in the offices and could be members, allowed to vote.
So they can say no one wants to be a Trustee, or they are not suitable. This then allows them to co-opt people to the Trust Board who are not even BHS members.
		
Click to expand...

The vote could be done electronically and be open to more members participating. However I agree with your main point. The definition makes it a very narrow shallow pool of potential candidates. And with the gathering storm who would want to join?


----------



## D66 (28 February 2019)

PAK said:



			The vote could be done electronically and be open to more members participating. However I agree with your main point. The definition makes it a very narrow shallow pool of potential candidates. And with the gathering storm who would want to join?
		
Click to expand...

this ^^^^
My professional body( the RIBA) has an option for electronic voting for the post of chairman and all the board members. We can sit at home, read the candidate's statements and then rate them in order of preference.  I can't remember if we still have the postal option, maybe it would be good for the BHS to retain it in parallel if they feel a significant number of members are not computer savvy.


----------



## JanetGeorge (28 February 2019)

D66 said:



			this ^^^^
My professional body( the RIBA) has an option for electronic voting for the post of chairman and all the board members. We can sit at home, read the candidate's statements and then rate them in order of preference.  I can't remember if we still have the postal option, maybe it would be good for the BHS to retain it in parallel if they feel a significant number of members are not computer savvy.
		
Click to expand...

Ah - but that would give far too many Members a say - the Chairman would rather just have their proxies.


----------



## Zebedee (1 March 2019)

There has been the option of voting for BHS Trustees elctronically for at least the last two if not three Trustee elections - not sure why people seem to think it has to be done in person or by proxy? They send out emails with the links, post paper forms and include all the onformation in British Horse magazine.


----------



## honetpot (2 March 2019)

Thanks really interesting. As I understood it, we no longer vote on Trustee, or if we have a vote, its after the filter of,
18.4  Any  candidates  nominated  for  election  to  a  Trustee  role  must  be  considered  by  the Nomination  Committee  in  accordance  with  the  Selection  Policy  and  such  considerations may include a review of written applications and an interview.
18.6  Any  candidate  who  is  nominated  for  election  but  is  identified  as  not  meeting  the requirements  of  the  Selection  Policy  shall  be  informed  of  the  decision  and  given  the opportunity  to  appeal  such  decision  in  writing  to  the  *Board  which  shall  have  ultimate discretion as to whether to override such decision.*
 So before you even get a chance to vote, you have to get through the interview. This was, and I quote one of the existing Board members, 'because then it becomes a popularity contest'. But they can co-opt people, who not are a member who has nominated to fill the vacancy.
  Is this to weed out poor candidates, or candidates that just do not 'fit'. We will never know because if we do not get the chance the vote on them how do we know their skill set.
  Just read the 'job descriptions' its a tall order to fill, but not required buy the Charity Commission
  The information needed to be given to members about the changes to the Articles of Association was far more important than voting on a new Trustee but the information given was derisory.
  We have been told that the only have 64,000 email addresses for 104,000 members, so if you didn't get and email about the nominating a member for the Board, please ring the BHS, and make sure they have it.


----------



## D66 (2 March 2019)

I didnâ€™t get emails that I knew were being sent, and they did have my email address. I had to change it at New Year so I phoned to tell them the new address.


----------



## Velcrobum (2 March 2019)

D66 said:



			I didnâ€™t get emails that I knew were being sent, and they did have my email address. I had to change it at New Year so I phoned to tell them the new address.
		
Click to expand...

I also have not received e-mails and yes they have my e-mail address because they have sent me e-mails before!!!


----------



## onemoretime (2 March 2019)

I have received more e mails from he BHS since all this blew up than I have in the entire time I have been a member.  I am bombarded with them!


----------



## honetpot (2 March 2019)

Well we did something, perhaps its the this end of the wedge?


----------



## JanetGeorge (4 March 2019)

honetpot said:



			Well we did something, perhaps its the this end of the wedge?
		
Click to expand...

We could certainly hope so - but I think they're just doing a little dance and we won't see REAL change under the current powers that be.  The battle will continue.


----------



## onemoretime (4 March 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			We could certainly hope so - but I think they're just doing a little dance and we won't see REAL change under the current powers that be.  The battle will continue.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with you Janet, I cant se any changes being made under this lot, they need to go!


----------



## Karen71 (5 March 2019)

I have just heard that the volunteer manager who has been in post only 8 months has resigned. They don't last long there now!


----------



## joeanne (6 March 2019)

Wow..... you accuse the BHS of all sorts, to include bullying and poor treatment of staff and here you are, behaving in EXACTLY the same way....
[Content removed] eh.... nice. Good job you are not involved with the BHS because your head would now be on the block.
Itâ€™s not hard to work out who this poor lady is, and your inexcusable attitude will be the exact reason nothing moves forward.


----------



## JanetGeorge (6 March 2019)

joeanne said:



			Wow..... you accuse the BHS of all sorts, to include bullying and poor treatment of staff and here you are, behaving in EXACTLY the same way....
[Content removed] eh.... nice. Good job you are not involved with the BHS because your head would now be on the block.
Itâ€™s not hard to work out who this poor lady is, and your inexcusable attitude will be the exact reason nothing moves forward.
		
Click to expand...

Gee, sorry joeanne - but if you knew how badly she treated V O L U N T E E R S - who were G I V I N G their time and expertise to the BHS cause, then you'd say [Content removed]d was a bit mild!


----------



## honetpot (6 March 2019)

A survey on charity sector bullying, it doesn't have to be about the BHS, but if its affected you here is a chance to have your say.

https://www.acevo.org.uk/news/acevo...fL_EBUYKSSihW3r3pfKMML51l_IwmIiqyEmTlE3rz0G68


----------



## PAK (6 March 2019)

joeanne said:



			Wow..... you accuse the BHS of all sorts, to include bullying and poor treatment of staff and here you are, behaving in EXACTLY the same way....
[Content removed] eh.... nice. Good job you are not involved with the BHS because your head would now be on the block.
Itâ€™s not hard to work out who this poor lady is, and your inexcusable attitude will be the exact reason nothing moves forward.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed & well said.


----------



## PAK (6 March 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Gee, sorry joeanne - but if you knew how badly she treated V O L U N T E E R S - who were G I V I N G their time and expertise to the BHS cause, then you'd say [Content removed] was a bit mild!
		
Click to expand...

Your assessment  of the person does not justify your rude comments, in my opinion.


----------



## JanetGeorge (8 March 2019)

honetpot said:



			A survey on charity sector bullying, it doesn't have to be about the BHS, but if its affected you here is a chance to have your say.

https://www.acevo.org.uk/news/acevo...fL_EBUYKSSihW3r3pfKMML51l_IwmIiqyEmTlE3rz0G68

Click to expand...

FAR too much of it going on!


----------



## JanetGeorge (11 March 2019)

We have just heard that the CE has resigned this afternoon.  Don't know why although she had ut off a meeting last week due to family issues.


----------



## honetpot (11 March 2019)

So do we as members want to know what the new 'package' is for who ever is employed? Apparently we were not entitled to know before, hence the confusion of what the last CEO was allowed to claim when banned from driving.


----------



## ViolettaTears (11 March 2019)

Great news and about time - too many people have been bullied out of their jobs from staff to directors, the list is endless. Be interesting to see if the new CE is paid a lot less - they should be. Time for the charity to act like a charity and not blunder from one investigation to the next one and change the culture for what is best for the horses and the people. It has been so sad to watch and the similarities to the mess at Amnesty International (where the whole of the management team have offered to resign over a bullying regime and epidemic) means it is time for a new start and a new broom. We have always said that with Â£60 million pounds of money generated via insurance sales and membership over her tenure it would be hard not to do some good things, but at what cost. The chairman and the trustees need to get a grip... theres no need for her to hang around but pity the other four charities she is a trustee of.


----------



## Velcrobum (12 March 2019)

Have actually got the e-mail. Thank heavens she has gone.


----------



## honetpot (12 March 2019)

Don't get too excited yet, the game of musical chairs of has started and the COO is acting, with the CEO on her shoulder while handing over. There is going to have to be a bigger change needed, and a definitely a change of management style.
  They have been in post long enough that there will be people working at BHS HO who will be unhappy with change, I would imagine anyone who did not fit in the present regime left.

  If the job description advert is anything like the one for the trustee board, it will be so constrictive as to make it virtually impossible but any one but the usual suspects to apply and that is if they open it up externally?


----------



## Haphazardhacker (12 March 2019)

Wonder if she has given up horses altogether and horses for her have run their course, last time I was at her place the stables had been converted into a dwelling and any thing horse related was gone.


----------



## JanetGeorge (12 March 2019)

Our friend Sophie Barnes at The Telegraph has acted quickly: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...steps-telegraph-investigation-revealed-toxic/


----------



## DD (13 March 2019)

thanks for the link JG


----------



## JanetGeorge (22 March 2019)

Good old Horse & Hound - another article about the departing CEO (one has to ask just what H&H will do for an accompanying advert, lol.)  I hope as muc publicity will be given to the forthcoming EGM - no date yet - but the request has been acknowledged:  "The document received was 16 pages in total and holds 44 signatures requesting an Extraordinary General Meeting to discuss and vote on the proposal of _â€œNo Confidence in the Chairman, Board of Trustees and Chief Executive of The British Horse Societyâ€._

It will be interesting to see how many nominations there are for potential Board Members - and if any can jump through the hoops.


----------



## ECB (26 March 2019)

Tonight's BHS meeting at Hartpury_ might_ be interesting. With an over stuffed agenda designed to reduce the opportunity for dialogue, one wonders if the following questions might be asked- 1) Why does the Board think it is appropriate NOT to publish approved Board minutes to members? 2) What is the Board's rationale for the balance of expenditure shown in 2017 accounts, specifically only 12% of expenditure  spent on welfare, safety, access and education 3) Why has BHS expenditure exceeded income for events & exam fees since 2012? 4) What is the explanation for continuing challenge rides while they lose money as reported in the 2017 accounts? 5) What is the explanation for leaving more than Â£32000 sitting in an account left over from the â€œFaith, Hope, and Charityâ€ welfare fund raising efforts? 6) With staff growth and turnover, ALL of the 2012 workforce excluding directors, have been replaced TWICE. What is the explanation for this highly unusual level of staff changes? 7) Under the current CEOâ€™s leadership, membership may have increased by 40% but in real terms, but the Society "worth" has declined by Â£1.6 million comparing like for like net assets. Please explain this strategy of increasing membership apparently regardless of cost. 8) In 2017, the charityâ€™s expenditure was Â£0.6 million more than its income. Will this pattern be repeated when the 2018 accounts are eventually made public? 9) With rates of Â£3500 for a full page advert, and high rates for on-line advertising, how much has the BHS paid to H&H in 2018? 10) The CEO's contract requires 6 months notice. How much of this notice will be "worked" and what other payments will be made to the departing CEO?


----------



## JanetGeorge (26 March 2019)

ECB said:



			Tonight's BHS meeting at Hartpury_ might_ be interesting. With an over stuffed agenda designed to reduce the opportunity for dialogue, one wonders if the following questions might be asked- 1) Why does the Board think it is appropriate NOT to publish approved Board minutes to members? 2) What is the Board's rationale for the balance of expenditure shown in 2017 accounts, specifically only 12% of expenditure  spent on welfare, safety, access and education 3) Why has BHS expenditure exceeded income for events & exam fees since 2012? 4) What is the explanation for continuing challenge rides while they lose money as reported in the 2017 accounts? 5) What is the explanation for leaving more than Â£32000 sitting in an account left over from the â€œFaith, Hope, and Charityâ€ welfare fund raising efforts? 6) With staff growth and turnover, ALL of the 2012 workforce excluding directors, have been replaced TWICE. What is the explanation for this highly unusual level of staff changes? 7) Under the current CEOâ€™s leadership, membership may have increased by 40% but in real terms, but the Society "worth" has declined by Â£1.6 million comparing like for like net assets. Please explain this strategy of increasing membership apparently regardless of cost. 8) In 2017, the charityâ€™s expenditure was Â£0.6 million more than its income. Will this pattern be repeated when the 2018 accounts are eventually made public? 9) With rates of Â£3500 for a full page advert, and high rates for on-line advertising, how much has the BHS paid to H&H in 2018? 10) The CEO's contract requires 6 months notice. How much of this notice will be "worked" and what other payments will be made to the departing CEO?
		
Click to expand...

And one more question.  When will they be holding the EGM to consider the vote of no confidence - they've had it AND acknowledged it!


----------



## ECB (26 March 2019)

According to the BHS Articles of Association, after receiving a petition, the CEO decides if/when to hold an EGM and there is no time requirement specified.


----------



## JanetGeorge (26 March 2019)

ECB said:



			According to the BHS Articles of Association, after receiving a petition, the CEO decides if/when to hold an EGM and there is no time requirement specified.
		
Click to expand...

That's certainly true - BUT - if they give a damn about listening to members then they need to provide some agreement and a guess at a date, at least.  Unless they just try to sneak it in and out on a Monday morning with bare minimum notice!!


----------



## ECB (26 March 2019)

Like sneaking in the changes to the â€œconstitutionâ€ on 5 January.


----------



## ECB (29 March 2019)

Shocking news - The "exiting" CEO of the BHS is standing for election as trustee!


----------



## JanetGeorge (29 March 2019)

And there WILL be a meeting in June - to hear a vote of No Confidence in the Chairman, the Trustees and the Chief Executive.  It appears they are hell-bent on implosion!  No date yet.


----------



## honetpot (29 March 2019)

You could not make it up. Or they reject all the candidates at the interview stage, and they co-opt her??


----------



## sywell (29 March 2019)

I thought it highlights the attitude of the CEO including in her achievements the dead slow campaign when she had a 6 month driving ban. Her explanation of why she disbanded the Horse and Pony Breeds Committee a long standing committee on horse Welfare and legislation was weak. It really was that she saw the committee would not bow down to her policies as the feral breeds representatives had strong public support.


----------



## ECB (30 March 2019)

sywell said:



			I thought it highlights the attitude of the CEO including in her achievements the dead slow campaign when she had a 6 month driving ban. Her explanation of why she disbanded the Horse and Pony Breeds Committee a long standing committee on horse Welfare and legislation was weak. It really was that she saw the committee would not bow down to her policies as the feral breeds representatives had strong public support.
		
Click to expand...

I assume that you are referring to the driving ban that the CEO did not tell the Board about; the one that was revealed by members of staff who are still too frightened to admit to revealing. The pattern of mismanagement is so clear and prolonged. What will it take for the members to "stand up for what they stand for"? The amount of money that is spent on the insurance policy is "hidden" in the accounts. Members' money is primarily going to overhead; not to the objects of the charity and certainly not to the insurance. The BHS's closet is full of skeletons; and a puppet costing more than Â£20,000. There will be an EGM in early June called for a vote of no confidence in the Board, Chair and CEO. This, in law, has no power to change the situation unless through massive attendance & proxy votes, members make this count.


----------



## ECB (30 March 2019)

A popular news item at the moment - unconfirmed but plausible. Exiting BHS CEO seeking to be Trustee and CEO of Pony Club. Seems there is a big market in China for Pony Club too.


----------



## JanetGeorge (30 March 2019)

ECB said:



			A popular news item at the moment - unconfirmed but plausible. Exiting BHS CEO seeking to be Trustee and CEO of Pony Club. Seems there is a big market in China for Pony Club too.
		
Click to expand...

And - I hear - she has already had her nomination accepted: no other candidates have been told yes or no.


----------



## ECB (30 March 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			And - I hear - she has already had her nomination accepted: no other candidates have been told yes or no.
		
Click to expand...

For Pony Club or BHS or both?


----------



## JanetGeorge (30 March 2019)

ECB said:



			For Pony Club or BHS or both?
		
Click to expand...

To become a Trustee of the BHS (again!)  I still have to work out when/if the Articles of Association had a sneaky change - because former employees were excluded from the Board for 3 years last time I looked.  I just hope the Pony Club has more sense than to employ her!


----------



## honetpot (30 March 2019)

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/Co...LJZHk48iDArdJhLpMKQut_KLepAS2HfrxQIBf2bjEprNA
The more you look the more you worry.


----------



## Blazingsaddles (30 March 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			To become a Trustee of the BHS (again!)  I still have to work out when/if the Articles of Association had a sneaky change - because former employees were excluded from the Board for 3 years last time I looked.  I just hope the Pony Club has more sense than to employ her!
		
Click to expand...

 Donâ€™t let the bastards get you down!


----------



## onemoretime (31 March 2019)

I cant believe this, she has the brass neck to put herself forward after all that has been exposed about her.  Well I wish I had her front!


----------



## ECB (31 March 2019)

I would think that the Articles of Association were changed (termed "simplified" at the time) around the time that AGM's were stopped. This would mean that any changes would be ratified by the Board and not need to be reported in any AGM minutes. 
Since the Board minutes are not published, which is unusual and not "best practice", members find themselves years down the road with this situation. The CEO will have been aware of this all along and planned her next steps. Once the changes (specifically changes to terms of office) were thwarted at the 5 Jan meeting, this was the "back up" plan - with the CEO becoming Chair this year at the end of the current Chair's term. 
The CEO and Board have used members money in legal but unethical and immoral ways.The objects of the charity have received "lip service" and so many good people, employees and volunteers, have suffered. An empire has been built that literally stretches to China and the Emirates. People have worked hard to bring these matters to light. However, nothing has really changed yet though the resignation of the CEO made it appear that way. The EGM in June has no power from the Articles of Association or under company law. Members can and must create such a noise that they will not be ignored.


----------



## Themis (1 April 2019)

Where is members' money spent?


----------



## Chinchilla (1 April 2019)

Source for this data please?  ETA I know it says accounts but surely they would give even the barest indication of where that 42% goes? I might be wrong but I thought charities legally had to declare where all income was spent?


----------



## oldjumper (1 April 2019)

Here are the published accounts (from BHS website): BHS Annual Report 2017.pdf


----------



## Themis (1 April 2019)

And a revealing look at income and expenditure over time


----------



## Themis (1 April 2019)

Chinchilla said:



			Source for this data please?  ETA I know it says accounts but surely they would give even the barest indication of where that 42% goes? I might be wrong but I thought charities legally had to declare where all income was spent?
		
Click to expand...

I suggest you have a good look at the accounts over recent years. One example - IT expenditure of Â£7.4 Million from 2012 to 2017


----------



## honetpot (1 April 2019)

Chinchilla said:



			Source for this data please?  ETA I know it says accounts but surely they would give even the barest indication of where that 42% goes? I might be wrong but I thought charities legally had to declare where all income was spent?
		
Click to expand...

If you look at some of the figures on the CC website, the depending on which 'pie chart' you look at it appears that all of the money is spent on the charitable aims, because it includes all the running costs of the society. 
  I think some of the members are trying to work out if the running costs and expense are actually good value for money. The BHS is not deeper in the red due to the push to get more members, who's subcriptions make up a large part of the income, which would be a good thing if only they were not employing more staff and spending alot of money of things that do not seem to have had a cost benifit analysis before commiting to a long term financial commitment.


----------



## ECB (2 April 2019)

honetpot said:



			If you look at some of the figures on the CC website, the depending on which 'pie chart' you look at it appears that all of the money is spent on the charitable aims, because it includes all the running costs of the society.
  I think some of the members are trying to work out if the running costs and expense are actually good value for money. The BHS is not deeper in the red due to the push to get more members, who's subcriptions make up a large part of the income, which would be a good thing if only they were not employing more staff and spending alot of money of things that do not seem to have had a cost benifit analysis before commiting to a long term financial commitment.
		
Click to expand...

Have another look at the accounts over time to see the pattern of how reserves have been used to stay afloat.


----------



## Themis (2 April 2019)

Honetpot mentions "staff" - here's the data.


----------



## Themis (4 April 2019)

Although H&H were contacted, they have not responded to invitations/requests from members to "hear" members concerns about BHS. Here's a possible explanation - using the current rates and discounts, BHS will be spending around Â£93000 with H&H for advertising - excluding any recruitment ads.


----------



## honetpot (4 April 2019)

It is rather strange that they are presenting only one side of a story, when really the members have very little voice apart fron social media, no paid staff, and certainly no money to publicise their concerns. 
  Certainly it make you wonder that the BHS thought when they had to defend their position in a national magazine, when supposedly we are a small group of uninformed malcontents, who have no idea what we are talking about. 
Its like the H&H think, if we don't ask the questions we do not have to think about the answers and what we do in response.


----------



## ester (4 April 2019)

Do they still list the top forum threads every week in the mag?


----------



## ECB (4 April 2019)

If a report of a huge increase in BHS membership appears soon, please seriously question the change. Things aren't always as some people would have them appear.


----------



## honetpot (4 April 2019)

Perhaps its time we ask to see the membership list?


----------



## JanetGeorge (4 April 2019)

honetpot said:



			Perhaps its time we ask to see the membership list?
		
Click to expand...

lol, they would just thow GDPR at you.


----------



## honetpot (4 April 2019)

Its not covered by GDPR


----------



## suestowford (5 April 2019)

There'll be one less on the list as I did not renew this year.
They rang up about 3 weeks after my renewal date to ask if I was going to renew this year or not. I said not, they rang off. They never answered my letters but they got in touch when they wanted money.


----------



## JanetGeorge (5 April 2019)

suestowford said:



			There'll be one less on the list as I did not renew this year.
They rang up about 3 weeks after my renewal date to ask if I was going to renew this year or not. I said not, they rang off. They never answered my letters but they got in touch when they wanted money.
		
Click to expand...

Did they ask why you were leaving?  Probably not, I guess - they don't actually WANT members, just their money!


----------



## ECB (5 April 2019)

NB: the upcoming meeting for members on 9 April at Morris Equestrian in Scotland is not mentioned on the BHS websites.


----------



## EventingMum (5 April 2019)

I am unable to attend the Scottish meeting or conference as I have recently been in hospital so if anyone is going and could give a resume afterwards I'd be very grateful.


----------



## View (5 April 2019)

EventingMum said:



			I am unable to attend the Scottish meeting or conference as I have recently been in hospital so if anyone is going and could give a resume afterwards I'd be very grateful.
		
Click to expand...

 PM sent.


----------



## suestowford (5 April 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Did they ask why you were leaving?  Probably not, I guess - they don't actually WANT members, just their money!
		
Click to expand...

Well they happened to ring while I was cooking our dinner so they got my husband. I didn't actually speak to them as I was a bit busy.


----------



## JanetGeorge (6 April 2019)

suestowford said:



			Well they happened to ring while I was cooking our dinner so they got my husband. I didn't actually speak to them as I was a bit busy.
		
Click to expand...

lol, good thing they didn't bother ringing me when I drpped mine.  My husband would have just yelled something like: "What do you want to tell these twats from the BHS?" - without covering the phone up.


----------



## honetpot (6 April 2019)

Depending how this year ends, which so far does not look good, its the last money they will get out of me.
There seems to be no respect for their membership, no wish to communicate or consult with them, and no acknowlegement that they are in the wrong. BE is having problems, but at least someone has stood up and taken some responsibilty.
https://www.britisheventing.com/new...1To0wlUN3COmpvzBKXUUc9bztgDq6LiPTliSSDMGHLTOc

  It has literally opened my eyes to a blinkered way of looking at horse ownership/carers the BHS has. The when you add the mis management of resources, money and people, which could do so much good in an enviromement where more knowledge about the care of horses, from their conception to their old age and death is needed, its not really fit for purpose.


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (6 April 2019)

I've cancelled my direct debit, it's a rolling one, so membership will come to an end in the Autumn, only 1 break of 4 years since 1979 when I left PC and started on the BHS exams route...


----------



## JanetGeorge (10 April 2019)

I'm getting a bit of feedback on the Scottish Meeting, which I gather was a bit lively.  Can anyone give me a bit more (by message if you prefer.)


----------



## ECB (10 April 2019)

Seemed clear that LP is standing for election as Trustee. Articles were changed in 2013 and this would be allowable.


----------



## EventingMum (10 April 2019)

I couldn't attend the meeting but someone I know was saying LP shouldn't be a trustee as it is against the constitution as she has a pension from the BHS. I would be interested to hear if this was raised last right?


----------



## ECB (10 April 2019)

Yes it was raised but it seemed clear from the BHS side that this was not how they interpreted the situation. And that they have taken legal advice.


----------



## JanetGeorge (10 April 2019)

Feedback from the Scottish Meeting:

Around 2 dozen members present. Almost as though they didnâ€™t want a large turnout. It was after the last day of the National Convention, which finished before 5 but the meeting not until 7. Meeting not mentioned at all until the closing remark of the convention.

Some distinct axe grinding. We heard from the former chair of one Scottish committee as to why she felt forced out, heard why their treasurer was forced to resign.

One very silly lady even tried to tell us exactly what the GDPR breach was - as this would have identified people not present and able to defend themselves, many of us stopped her.

Usual concerns about lack of transparency, governance, accountability.

Committees feeling forced into moving and accounts to Unity Trust - needs internet access to operate. Could be a problem in rural areas ...

HQ attitude e.g referring to â€œpockets of resistanceâ€ rather than a recognition that people are raising issues about practicality.


----------



## ECB (11 April 2019)

The second hand report above illustrates why â€œhear sayâ€ is not admissible evidence in court. The meeting was lively and the full 2 hours was used in conversation. Letâ€™s not let this lackluster second hand or third hand view from afar detract from the energy still needed to change the situation. Or might that be the real purpose of such a report- to drain energy & interest? To encourage others to give up?


----------



## PAK (12 April 2019)

Key ingredient missing from all above is the members, right at the start, asked for the agenda to be set aside and to use the time to talk about membersâ€™ concerns. And thatâ€™s what happened.


----------



## ConneticutYankee (13 April 2019)




----------



## ConneticutYankee (13 April 2019)

Suggestion: Contact auto@guild-freemen-london.co.uk to make your views known about the likely application for one of the oldest honours, Freedom of the City of London.


----------



## ConneticutYankee (13 April 2019)

NB: CORRECTION: email address is clerk@guild-freemen-london.co.uk


----------



## onemoretime (13 April 2019)

ConneticutYankee said:



View attachment 31353

Click to expand...

Words fail me!!!


----------



## PAK (13 April 2019)

onemoretime said:



			Words fail me!!!
		
Click to expand...

Please find some words again and send them to the clerk!


----------



## JanetGeorge (15 April 2019)

Now this story hasn't made the BHS Magazine, I'll bet!  https://www.thirdsector.co.uk/unfai...cJAkw-YjUkr3AXNuAQhpmjDQT1apqpgQYtVMlVPIdrEgQ

There's not much justice in the world!


----------



## ConnecticutYankee (15 April 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Now this story hasn't made the BHS Magazine, I'll bet!  https://www.thirdsector.co.uk/unfai...cJAkw-YjUkr3AXNuAQhpmjDQT1apqpgQYtVMlVPIdrEgQ

There's not much justice in the world!
		
Click to expand...

There can be justice if we work together to make it happen. Keep your eyes on the prize-  the EGM vote of no confidence, the election of new trustees we can trust, and stopping the election of the current CEO to the Board.


----------



## honetpot (15 April 2019)

While I fully agree with you, the new issue of British Horse is out, and I can find anything mentioned about anything,  but of course LP gets to write a whole page of guff. So their tactic is to keep the majority of the membership totally ignorant, and they have probabely sat an done the numbers and are playing a waiting game.


----------



## ConnecticutYankee (15 April 2019)

honetpot said:



			While I fully agree with you, the new issue of British Horse is out, and I can find anything mentioned about anything,  but of course LP gets to write a whole page of guff. So their tactic is to keep the majority of the membership totally ignorant, and they have probabely sat an done the numbers and are playing a waiting game.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with your description of "guff", "numbers", and "waiting game". Once people heard the news of the CEO's resignation, members may well have thought the struggle was over. But it is far from over and rapidly getting worse. Out of the CEO seat, LP will still have control via her hand picked staff obliged staff but even less responsibility & accountability. Chances would not be good for hiring the CEO the BHS really needs while she is there and part of the decision making. It would be likely to be a clone who like the others "owe" her allegiance.  JG & her social media warriors need to beat those jungle drums and rekindle the interest and enthusiasm of members. The BHS Members Support page was once over 1000. If it can get there again or better yet more, this membership cavalry may stand a fighting chance.


----------



## JanetGeorge (15 April 2019)

ConnecticutYankee said:



			I agree with your description of "guff", "numbers", and "waiting game". Once people heard the news of the CEO's resignation, members may well have thought the struggle was over. But it is far from over and rapidly getting worse. Out of the CEO seat, LP will still have control via her hand picked staff obliged staff but even less responsibility & accountability. Chances would not be good for hiring the CEO the BHS really needs while she is there and part of the decision making. It would be likely to be a clone who like the others "owe" her allegiance.  JG & her social media warriors need to beat those jungle drums and rekindle the interest and enthusiasm of members. The BHS Members Support page was once over 1000. If it can get there again or better yet more, this membership cavalry may stand a fighting chance.
		
Click to expand...

We've got a lot to do - otherwise she will be a Trustee - and probably Chairman - by July.  Membership of the FB Group never actually got to 1,000 - we DO have 50 odd 'in waiting' but they haven't answered the questions.


----------



## ECB (16 April 2019)

1000 *BHS* *members* - if they get *active* - _should_ be a "tipping point". But audacity and arrogance continues to be the BHS's most impressive feature. How about the addition of a new highly focused thread here in H&H with only one objective, perhaps even framing the thread as a declaration of intent, i.e. change the hands that hold the reins. Sheerin, Petersen, Phillips out!  or we leave. After all, many members have already left and many are planning to leave if the EGM is unsuccessful.


----------



## ECB (16 April 2019)

D66 said:



			[Content removed]
		
Click to expand...

D66 - Very well said and great suggestions. Let's turn the "you" into "*we*". D66 - might you draft the core message based on your summary of the 3 key points (spot on!). Then may we have some volunteers to contact hunting other other disciplines? And some people to contact the smaller horse magazines - those will be the ones who are not getting the huge sums from BHS.  Anyone have a stand at the Royal Windsor with a free corner?  Many hands make light work.


----------



## honetpot (16 April 2019)

From MPV. There is concern by some members that they or their associates will be, 'got at' if they put their hands up. I have been quite open with my views, in person and in writing to HO, but others who hold the same oppinions are worried to speak out, these are not young people but long standing members. So there is a level of mistrust and suspicion which I have never seen before, who are you talking to and are you going to shop me? So if you do not know people personally there seems to be a reluctance to connect.
  There are also well respected senior members that just keep hoping the Board will do the right thing, and it will be resolved by a gentlemans agreement, were everyone will change their spots, rather than using their high profile. 
  I do think there needs to be some sort of fighting fund to get proper legel advice and pay for adverts if needed. Its funny British Horse is a members magazine but makes no attempt to inform members of the issues, even if it was the HO PoV.

As its is we know that LP nomination has been accepted, I do not know how there can not be any conflict of interest in the interview panel.
So far all we know is..

If your nomination is accepted we would be grateful if you could please save the date of the Election Board Meeting as you will be required to attend. This will be taking place with the Annual Members Meeting on Tuesday 16 July 2019.
   I assume this could be the date for the EGM, but who knows. Save the date.


----------



## ECB (16 April 2019)

At the meeting on 9 April Scotland, Chairman Sheerin confirmed HQ had received a petition calling for an EGM (Vote of No Confidence in the Chair, CEO and Board) and that he had responded to the one of the people who had signed the petition that he was trying to schedule the meeting for early June. It was pointed out that all members who had signed the petition should have had a response. I agree. I signed and I have not had a response from BHS HQ. He went on to describe the other events that needed to be schedule creating the impression that the early June date might not materialise.


----------



## Themis (16 April 2019)

honetpot said:



			From MPV. There is concern by some members that they or their associates will be, 'got at' if they put their hands up. I have been quite open with my views, in person and in writing to HO, but others who hold the same oppinions are worried to speak out, these are not young people but long standing members. So there is a level of mistrust and suspicion which I have never seen before, who are you talking to and are you going to shop me? So if you do not know people personally there seems to be a reluctance to connect.
  There are also well respected senior members that just keep hoping the Board will do the right thing, and it will be resolved by a gentlemans agreement, were everyone will change their spots, rather than using their high profile.
  I do think there needs to be some sort of fighting fund to get proper legel advice and pay for adverts if needed. Its funny British Horse is a members magazine but makes no attempt to inform members of the issues, even if it was the HO PoV.

As its is we know that LP nomination has been accepted, I do not know how there can not be any conflict of interest in the interview panel.
So far all we know is..

If your nomination is accepted we would be grateful if you could please save the date of the Election Board Meeting as you will be required to attend. This will be taking place with the Annual Members Meeting on Tuesday 16 July 2019.
   I assume this could be the date for the EGM, but who knows. Save the date.
		
Click to expand...

The fact that members are quiet because of fear is evidence enough that something major is wrong and needs members' urgent action. The Board has colluded in the mismanagement of funds and the mistreatment of staff and volunteers. They will not change now. If the BHS is worth having, "feel the fear and do it anyway". Please speak to one another, find out the facts, ask questions (even here on this thread)  and please make your views known.


----------



## ECB (17 April 2019)

Why are we still waiting for a date for the general meeting called for by members (Articles of Association 24.2)? If a date is not set soon, the meeting might be held after the election. Or is that the intention?


----------



## JanetGeorge (17 April 2019)

ECB said:



			Why are we still waiting for a date for the general meeting called for by members (Articles of Association 24.2)? If a date is not set soon, the meeting might be held after the election. Or is that the intention?
		
Click to expand...

The question was asked of the Chairman at the Scottish Meeting,  He said that it was difficult finding a date as there was so much to organize with the election etc.   I suspect the idea is to delay until after the election and then claim as the CE has resigned, there is a new Chairman, and a few new Trustees (pre-approved, of course) that the Vote of No Confidence is now irrelevant.  I think every Member who goes to Badminton should track down the BHSvenue and LOOK for Trustees - and ask them.  If just 100 members did that, they MIGHT get the message that a delay is unacceptable.


----------



## ECB (17 April 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			The question was asked of the Chairman at the Scottish Meeting,  He said that it was difficult finding a date as there was so much to organize with the election etc.   I suspect the idea is to delay until after the election and then claim as the CE has resigned, there is a new Chairman, and a few new Trustees (pre-approved, of course) that the Vote of No Confidence is now irrelevant.  I think every Member who goes to Badminton should track down the BHSvenue and LOOK for Trustees - and ask them.  If just 100 members did that, they MIGHT get the message that a delay is unacceptable.
		
Click to expand...

As the Captain said to the First officer- â€œmake it soâ€.


----------



## ECB (18 April 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			The question was asked of the Chairman at the Scottish Meeting,  He said that it was difficult finding a date as there was so much to organize with the election etc.   I suspect the idea is to delay until after the election and then claim as the CE has resigned, there is a new Chairman, and a few new Trustees (pre-approved, of course) that the Vote of No Confidence is now irrelevant.  I think every Member who goes to Badminton should track down the BHSvenue and LOOK for Trustees - and ask them.  If just 100 members did that, they MIGHT get the message that a delay is unacceptable.
		
Click to expand...

And every member that goes to Windsor! Anyone else notice that the current magazine does even not mention the election at all! Not even a "save the date". And typically this would be the only magazine to be circulated before the election.


----------



## Themis (22 April 2019)

Hoping that members will not be drawn off course by tempting offers of "red herrings". Hang fire until later this week. By law they must set a date for the requisitioned GM within 21 - 28 days. That is this week!


----------



## ECB (22 April 2019)

The original petition submitted at the GM on 5 January was withdrawn in good faith to allow the Board time to act on the feedback they received. HQ has announced that the meeting will not be resumed. A general meeting, as petitioned on 14 March, which would be open to all members, is the reasonable way forward and must be held soon - not after the election.  This is especially true if the election includes LP as trustee. Section 5 of the Articles addresses the conflict of interest regarding Society Trustees and Connected Persons, i.e. those receiving benefits (e.g. pension).  At the members meeting on 9 April, it was stated that LP's application could not be  commented upon as the nominations process is confidential. However, when the next question referred specifically to the Articles (5.1.3 & 5.1.4) and exclusion due to employment / benefits, the reply was that at the time of the election LP would not be an employee. However, at the time of application and interview, LP would have been an employee. Was that the handwriting on the wall?


----------



## pink unicorn (23 April 2019)

As the aoa doesn't specify a different timeline the does the law stand with the company act that the have 21 days to gm date.


----------



## ECB (24 April 2019)

pink unicorn said:



			As the aoa doesn't specify a different timeline the does the law stand with the company act that the have 21 days to gm date.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, in my opinion, the company act applies here. The date for the requisitioned GM has to be set 21 to no more than 28 days from date of petition accepted. So with bank holidays, that is this week. However, the actual date of the meeting is the BHS' decision. So they might set the date for after the election!  What a thought for a new Board member! First hurdle is face a vote of no confidence! And if it is true that LP is standing, then after her election to the Board and possibly her election as Chair, the problems of the past will be set to continue into the future.


----------



## pink unicorn (24 April 2019)

24.2 "states the GM to be held at such time and in such place as the board shall appoint", it can be when and where they want but that doesn't give the board the right to ignore the law and not set a date ( *Members' power to require directors to call general meetings (sec303 - sec304), If the request is properly made, the directors must within 21 days call the meeting for a date not more than 28 days after the date of the notice calling the meeting)*

*maybe the 1000 plus members of these threads and the FB members page should throw a Â£10 in the pot, for a lawyer to sort this board out*

a GM is the fairest option to allow any concerned member attend


----------



## pink unicorn (24 April 2019)

maybe multiple partitions for a GM will get the message through!!!


----------



## Cowpony (24 April 2019)

pink unicorn said:



			24.2 "states the GM to be held at such time and in such place as the board shall appoint", it can be when and where they want but that doesn't give the board the right to ignore the law and not set a date ( *Members' power to require directors to call general meetings (sec303 - sec304), If the request is properly made, the directors must within 21 days call the meeting for a date not more than 28 days after the date of the notice calling the meeting)*

*maybe the 1000 plus members of these threads and the FB members page should throw a Â£10 in the pot, for a lawyer to sort this board out*

a GM is the fairest option to allow any concerned member attend
		
Click to expand...

Can't whoever submitted the request just contact them and point out that the 21 days have passed so they are now in breach of the Articles of Association?  You don't need a lawyer for that.


----------



## onemoretime (24 April 2019)

pink unicorn said:



			24.2 "states the GM to be held at such time and in such place as the board shall appoint", it can be when and where they want but that doesn't give the board the right to ignore the law and not set a date ( *Members' power to require directors to call general meetings (sec303 - sec304), If the request is properly made, the directors must within 21 days call the meeting for a date not more than 28 days after the date of the notice calling the meeting)*

*maybe the 1000 plus members of these threads and the FB members page should throw a Â£10 in the pot, for a lawyer to sort this board out*

a GM is the fairest option to allow any concerned member attend
		
Click to expand...

I keep trying to e mail David Sheerin to ask for the date of the EGM but the e mail keeps bouncing back to me, no doubt deliberately!


----------



## ECB (24 April 2019)

pink unicorn said:



			24.2 "states the GM to be held at such time and in such place as the board shall appoint", it can be when and where they want but that doesn't give the board the right to ignore the law and not set a date ( *Members' power to require directors to call general meetings (sec303 - sec304), If the request is properly made, the directors must within 21 days call the meeting for a date not more than 28 days after the date of the notice calling the meeting)*

*maybe the 1000 plus members of these threads and the FB members page should throw a Â£10 in the pot, for a lawyer to sort this board out*

a GM is the fairest option to allow any concerned member attend
		
Click to expand...

Thank you. I agree with your correction. So this week they must call the meeting and it must be with 28 working days. I like your idea about the tenners. Are you able to create the mechanism to collect the funds? And I agree the GM is the fairest & most appropriate next step.


----------



## ECB (24 April 2019)

Cowpony said:



			Can't whoever submitted the request just contact them and point out that the 21 days have passed so they are now in breach of the Articles of Association?  You don't need a lawyer for that.
		
Click to expand...

That have been reminded and asked several times.


----------



## ECB (24 April 2019)

onemoretime said:



			I keep trying to e mail David Sheerin to ask for the date of the EGM but the e mail keeps bouncing back to me, no doubt deliberately!
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps time to call them & check the emails. I have not had or heard of emails bouncing back.


----------



## onemoretime (24 April 2019)

ECB said:



			Perhaps time to call them & check the emails. I have not had or heard of emails bouncing back.
		
Click to expand...

Will try and call tomorrow.


----------



## honetpot (25 April 2019)

pink unicorn said:



			24.2 "states the GM to be held at such time and in such place as the board shall appoint", it can be when and where they want but that doesn't give the board the right to ignore the law and not set a date ( *Members' power to require directors to call general meetings (sec303 - sec304), If the request is properly made, the directors must within 21 days call the meeting for a date not more than 28 days after the date of the notice calling the meeting)*

*maybe the 1000 plus members of these threads and the FB members page should throw a Â£10 in the pot, for a lawyer to sort this board out*

a GM is the fairest option to allow any concerned member attend
		
Click to expand...

You keep reading my mind.


----------



## Velcrobum (25 April 2019)

Try emailing  trustee.contact@bhs.org.uk  That is the email for the trustees as listed on the BHS website so you should get a response.


----------



## ConnecticutYankee (25 April 2019)

Survey done. Words not minced.


----------



## Velcrobum (26 April 2019)

ConnecticutYankee said:



			Survey done. Words not minced.
		
Click to expand...

What survey?? I am a gold member and have not received anything about a survey either email or snail mail !!!!!


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (26 April 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			What survey?? I am a gold member and have not received anything about a survey either email or snail mail !!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Ditto!


----------



## ye olde greymare (26 April 2019)

*Wendy Suddes 26/04/19
In the midst of continued speculation, to clarify my personal situation and to draw a line under this period in my life,  I would like to make the following statement:*
I was a member of staff, based in the North of England at The British Horse Society, for almost eighteen years until my dismissal at the end of May 2018.  I am a BHS member of almost thirty years and an Accredited Professional Coach (BHSI).
My background is in Education but I have an all round interest in the Societiesâ€™ work, having run several Approved Centres, hosted a Riding Club Championship at my home and in more recent years been more involved in welfare.  I had an exemplary work record with the BHS including many Grade 1 â€˜masteryâ€™ appraisals to my credit.  I have a reputation for being a straight talker, courageous and a workaholic.  I am also recognised for integrity, fairness and honesty in my dealings with colleagues both within and outside the organisation.
Many important BHS projects have been instigated in the North over the years â€“ including the grading scheme for Approved Centres, unique collaborative work with the RSPCA, the BHS Castration/ID Scheme, BHS branded hi-viz and the Tired of 20 Metre Circles? initiative aimed at encouraging people to tackle Historic Research of paths prior to 2026.
However, for those who do not know me, it is fair to say that I may have most recently been described in less than positive terms.
Back in December 2015, in support of a colleague and in the spirit of openness for which I am known, I voiced concerns with regard to staff morale.  From that point onwards I was treated as an outsider.  Prior to that point, I was led to believe that changes at the top represented a breath of fresh air for the organisation and I enjoyed what I felt were positive working relationships.  However, it seems that once I had the temerity to challenge the status quo, attitudes towards me changed.
In February 2017, after careful consideration, I whistle-blew in writing, to the Chairman and the Board with regard to my continued concerns. I was later interviewed by a Barrister, tasked by the BHS to investigate.  The subsequent sequence of events has seen nothing short of a witch hunt and great pains have been taken to accuse me of being vindictive and a trouble causer. People who have never met me have preconceived ideas with regard to my character and motives. 
The pain of this is acute, however, this pales compared to what some of my colleagues, including those on the payroll and in voluntary positions, have been forced to endure.
After a series of events which can be best described as stranger than fiction, I was dismissed from my role in May 2019.  Having fought tirelessly to clear me of any wrong doing and avoid dismissal, I initially fought to get my job back and then progressed to a Tribunal application for Unfair Dismissal.
Sadly, due to sheer exhaustion and stress caused by a tremendous burden carried for too long, (and as a result of what I believe to be failures by the HR Director and the Board to protect me and failure of the Chairman to properly act on evidence provided to him), alongside confusion with emails from ACAS, I have somehow missed the appeal deadline for submission to Tribunal (less than one day late). 
It has taken months to discover that, due to clear rules in law, appealing the judges decision to reject my claim due to the lateness, would be futile. 
I am devastated, not just for myself, losing my dream job but also for the many brave, talented people who have suffered injustice too and stood by and supported me in the hope that a Tribunal would shed light on the problems.  Even now, when very little has been addressed or rectified, there are people reluctant to come forward and speak up for fear of losing their job or jeopardising their valuable connection to the Society.
I (and others), believe that those in positions of influence at the BHS have lost sight of why the organisation exists as a charity.  The Societyâ€™s raison dâ€™etre should mean that the horse comes first - and its people and resources should be valued and respected in the process.
As a long-standing BHS member, I  believe that we owe it to the staff, volunteers and members, (all of whom buy into the fundamental aims of this hugely important organisation), to press for transparency and accountability. Ironically, I now have personal experience of the appalling HR practices previously relayed to me by colleagues and the seriously flawed and improper relationship between the HR Director and CE.
Those who have, perhaps naively, failed to question the perpetual self-praising propaganda, emanating from the organisation, now need to demand evidence and clarification.  Cronyism is rife and there is a need to seek out and recognise the truth, before further damage is caused to the fabric of this invaluable organisation. 
Thankfully, many staff and volunteers have remained unaware or unaffected. However, for  those who _have_ been affected, I have observed the very best (and indeed the very worst), in human nature.  It has been a salutary lesson in psychology.
I have no regrets concerning my actions and if I found myself in the same position again, I would not hesitate to react accordingly.  I am truly thankful for the new friends I have made during this dreadful period and the old friends to whom I am so much closer - and who are now priceless to me.
With transparency and proper accountability there can be recognition that mistakes have inevitably been made.  This will help to restore trust and identify the solutions needed to secure a bright future for the BHS.  
Extraordinary circumstances call for extraordinary measures. 
To that end and for those with an interest in reading the true account of my personal experiences further, I will make available separately on the British Horse Society Members Facebook Page, the Witness Statement prepared for the Tribunal along with a number of relevant documents.


----------



## Cowpony (27 April 2019)

Wow! What a brave lady! Well done for standing up for yourself and others!


----------



## rabatsa (27 April 2019)

I am so sorry this has happened to you.  As someone who was in your region for many years, until the region shrunk and another person took over my area, I can honestly say that you are missed.


----------



## DD (27 April 2019)

have just read Wendy suddes statement on FB. The goings on in the beggar belief. Something needs to be done !


----------



## JanetGeorge (27 April 2019)

Downton Dame said:



			have just read Wendy suddes statement on FB. The goings on in the beggar belief. Something needs to be done !
		
Click to expand...

Wendy's sacking was the atrocity that led me to start this thread and I didn't know then JUST how appalling her treatment had been.  Having now read it all - and heard so much more about the mis-treatment of other staff members and volunteers - I personally will NOT stop!  It is not JUST the CE who behaved very badly indeed - but also some of her 'minions' who are still there - no doubt with their eyes on the CE's job.


----------



## honetpot (27 April 2019)

We need a legal team.


----------



## Velcrobum (27 April 2019)

Perhaps someone needs to print off Wendy's statement (as this is a public forum) and leave  copies at regular intervals in the BHS tent at Badminton. Anyone know where Martin Clunes lives - Beaminster Dorset is as close as I can find.


----------



## honetpot (27 April 2019)

Good idea.


----------



## ViolettaTears (27 April 2019)

Wendy Suddes is clearly an outstanding horsewoman with huge integrity, my husband and i are totally shocked to read her statement. Wendy, you have our total support and utter respect!   The HR Director and CE should be stopped from ever working for a charity again and the HR Director should be sacked for Gross Inadequacy.  We need an EGM to hold the Chairman and Board to account so that we as members can have a public, open discussion about the way the charity has and is being run.  What on earth has happened to the EGM date. Surely it should be in June?  Why don't we all just turn up to the 'General' meeting at Stoneleigh and make it into an EGM ????  The charity is OUR charity, not the Board's, or the staff's or the CEs, it belongs to us as members.   Horse and Hound, you may be owned by Private Equity but you too are complicit in acting more like 'Hello' magazine, you should be printing balanced articles, rather than being a puppet for the charismatic but fundamentally flawed personalities.  By the way we have also heard that the Chairman is staying on over his 6 years (which should end in July, which is when AGMS were held until the cowardice of the board of trustees and CE meant they cancelled them rather than face us members).  We hope it isn't true, but this is the BHS we are talking about.


----------



## Violettears (27 April 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			Wendy Suddes is clearly an outstanding horsewoman with huge integrity, my husband and i are totally shocked to read her statement. Wendy, you have our total support and utter respect!   The HR Director and CE should be stopped from ever working for a charity again and the HR Director should be sacked for Gross Inadequacy.  We need an EGM to hold the Chairman and Board to account so that we as members can have a public, open discussion about the way the charity has and is being run.  What on earth has happened to the EGM date. Surely it should be in June?  Why don't we all just turn up to the 'General' meeting at Stoneleigh and make it into an EGM ????  The charity is OUR charity, not the Board's, or the staff's or the CEs, it belongs to us as members.   Horse and Hound, you may be owned by Private Equity but you too are complicit in acting more like 'Hello' magazine, you should be printing balanced articles, rather than being a puppet for the charismatic but fundamentally flawed personalities.  By the way we have also heard that the Chairman is staying on over his 6 years (which should end in July, which is when AGMS were held until the cowardice of the board of trustees and CE meant they cancelled them rather than face us members).  We hope it isn't true, but this is the BHS we are talking about.
		
Click to expand...

What a load of tosh!


----------



## Violettears (27 April 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			Perhaps someone needs to print off Wendy's statement (as this is a public forum) and leave  copies at regular intervals in the BHS tent at Badminton. Anyone know where Martin Clunes lives - Beaminster Dorset is as close as I can find.
		
Click to expand...

What a load of tosh.


----------



## Violettears (27 April 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Wendy's sacking was the atrocity that led me to start this thread and I didn't know then JUST how appalling her treatment had been.  Having now read it all - and heard so much more about the mis-treatment of other staff members and volunteers - I personally will NOT stop!  It is not JUST the CE who behaved very badly indeed - but also some of her 'minions' who are still there - no doubt with their eyes on the CE's job.
		
Click to expand...

What a load of tosh.


----------



## JanetGeorge (27 April 2019)

Violettears said:



			What a load of tosh.
		
Click to expand...

Gee, two more comments from Violettears who now has 20/20 for tosh!


----------



## Goldenstar (27 April 2019)

Just my thoughts I also worked with Wendy when I was invovlved with the BHS she was exceptional.
I went from meeting with her thinking how lucky the BHS was to have her she managed the sometimes difficult interface between volunteers and HQ so well.
I quit my volunteering when I got a whiff of what being described they expected expected a lot but did not have your back .I wonâ€™t share what happened to me but in a second my eyes opened and I managed myself away as quick as possible .


----------



## Tiddlypom (27 April 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			Perhaps someone needs to print off Wendy's statement (as this is a public forum) and leave  copies at regular intervals in the BHS tent at Badminton. Anyone know where Martin Clunes lives - Beaminster Dorset is as close as I can find.
		
Click to expand...

I'm happy to breeze by the BHS tent at Badminton with a copy of Wendy's statement and pass on my disgust at the current shenanigans in person.


----------



## Violettears (27 April 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Gee, two more comments from Violettears who now has 20/20 for tosh!
		
Click to expand...

What a load of tosh!


----------



## Violettears (27 April 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			I'm happy to breeze by the BHS tent at Badminton with a copy of Wendy's statement and pass on my disgust at the current shenanigans in person.
		
Click to expand...

What a load of tosh!


----------



## JanetGeorge (27 April 2019)

Violettears said:



			What a load of tosh!
		
Click to expand...

Are you trying to prove you're an idiot, Violettears - an dthat you haven't got anything intelligent or useful to add??  Because you ARE wasting your time - we'd worked that out by your 2nd post.


----------



## Tiddlypom (27 April 2019)

Violettears said:



			What a load of tosh!
		
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting that I am making an empty threat? I am a long term BHS Gold member, and I am going to Badminton. No doubt I will pass by the BHS tent at some point...


----------



## onemoretime (27 April 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			Perhaps someone needs to print off Wendy's statement (as this is a public forum) and leave  copies at regular intervals in the BHS tent at Badminton. Anyone know where Martin Clunes lives - Beaminster Dorset is as close as I can find.
		
Click to expand...

. I am sure if you addressed it to him with Bearminster Dorset it would get to him.


----------



## onemoretime (27 April 2019)

Violettears said:



			What a load of tosh!
		
Click to expand...

Is Violettears a parrot, she keeps repeating herself!


----------



## JanetGeorge (27 April 2019)

onemoretime said:



			Is Violettears a parrot, she keeps repeating herself!
		
Click to expand...

It's hard when you have nothing intelligent to say, lol.  I guess we should thank her for her efforts to help get this thread more views.


----------



## ycbm (27 April 2019)

Violettears said:



			What a load of tosh!
		
Click to expand...




Violettears said:



			What a load of tosh!
		
Click to expand...




Violettears said:



			What a load of tosh.
		
Click to expand...




Violettears said:



			What a load of tosh.
		
Click to expand...

How utterly pathetic.


----------



## honetpot (27 April 2019)

You could say at least this one is showing their true colours unlike the rest of the ......., who hide behind spin and corporate double talk. I do not know how they sleep at night.


----------



## Goldenstar (27 April 2019)

ycbm said:



			How utterly pathetic.
		
Click to expand...

No no it serves a purpose you know you can safely ignore Anything posted by that member .


----------



## ConnecticutYankee (29 April 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			What survey?? I am a gold member and have not received anything about a survey either email or snail mail !!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Fit For Future survey for volunteers. I did not receive either. Has to go searching after a member pointed it out. Touted as being essential to BHS future.


----------



## ConnecticutYankee (29 April 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			What survey?? I am a gold member and have not received anything about a survey either email or snail mail !!!!!
		
Click to expand...




ViolettaTears said:



			Wendy Suddes is clearly an outstanding horsewoman with huge integrity, my husband and i are totally shocked to read her statement. Wendy, you have our total support and utter respect!   The HR Director and CE should be stopped from ever working for a charity again and the HR Director should be sacked for Gross Inadequacy.  We need an EGM to hold the Chairman and Board to account so that we as members can have a public, open discussion about the way the charity has and is being run.  What on earth has happened to the EGM date. Surely it should be in June?  Why don't we all just turn up to the 'General' meeting at Stoneleigh and make it into an EGM ????  The charity is OUR charity, not the Board's, or the staff's or the CEs, it belongs to us as members.   Horse and Hound, you may be owned by Private Equity but you too are complicit in acting more like 'Hello' magazine, you should be printing balanced articles, rather than being a puppet for the charismatic but fundamentally flawed personalities.  By the way we have also heard that the Chairman is staying on over his 6 years (which should end in July, which is when AGMS were held until the cowardice of the board of trustees and CE meant they cancelled them rather than face us members).  We hope it isn't true, but this is the BHS we are talking about.
		
Click to expand...

According to the Companies Act, the date for the EM requisitioned by the petition of members should have been set last week! The treatment that Wendy received is not the only example. And while as HQ says there are two sides to every story, there are too many examples like this one. Re-read the Telegraph articles. With Badminton close at hand, there is a public opportunity to insist upon change. More than Â£250K was spent sponsoring Badminton. Why should a a charity's money be spent like this? Members money has been and continues to be wasted on building an empire.In 2012 there were 87 employee. Now there are 144 with a salary bill this year over Â£5 Million.


----------



## ECB (29 April 2019)

Censorship - just received an alert that my comment on Friday has been removed. "naming of individuals is not helpful". However, I see lots of named individuals in this thread. Must have really hit the nail on the head with that one.


----------



## Themis (29 April 2019)

Members- have a look at a new thread *BHS Election & Rights of Members*


----------



## ECB (29 April 2019)

Here we go again. Well qualified members who are willing to work as volunteers rejected.


----------



## onemoretime (29 April 2019)

Corruption at its finest!!


----------



## Roxylola (29 April 2019)

I'm really sad it has come to this, I was a BHS supporter for a long time, I have passed a number of their teaching exams in the days when their qualification were taken seriously and respected.  I've considered even though I no longer work with horses continuing to take the exams as a way of goal setting for myself.  Glad now I didn't waste my money.
I know Wendy from back in the days when I did work in the industry, she was so hard working, she has integrity and would be an asset to any company.  I've watched this unfold somewhat from the sidelines, as I am no longer a member I've little place involving myself in the full debate.  The work Wendy did in the early days of her role was phenomenal to raise the local profile I am disgusted to hear the way she has been treated.


----------



## Tiddlypom (29 April 2019)

What is the correct pronounciation of Wendy Suddes' surname please, folks ?


----------



## rabatsa (30 April 2019)

I always say sudd-es


----------



## ViolettaTears (2 May 2019)

JOB ADVERT FOR THE NEW CE AT BHS .... Where is it? Anyone seen it? The answer is a resounding "no".  This is very strange as the exit arrangements of the former CE would have been undertaken at least three months ago. It is normal charity practice to hire a headhunter within days, get a public advert up in say The Times and The Guardian and for us the H and H with applicants being screened and first interviewed by the Headhunter before a long list going to the Chair and trustees before a short list being interviewed. But all we have is a big fat silence which is way beyond odd and out of kilter with any other charity recruitment process. Or is it a done deal with either the current Director of Education or COO being neatly slotted in??? Anyways, the former CE has left the building so Stoneleigh reception have confirmed and no longer works there.


----------



## honetpot (2 May 2019)

Perhaps the 'advertised' internally.


----------



## JanetGeorge (2 May 2019)

honetpot said:



			Perhaps the 'advertised' internally.
		
Click to expand...

Well, you WOULD expect to find it on the BHS web site - NADA!


----------



## Tiddlypom (2 May 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Are you suggesting that I am making an empty threat? I am a long term BHS Gold member, and I am going to Badminton. No doubt I will pass by the BHS tent at some point...
		
Click to expand...

I visited the BHS stand at Badminton today, and passed on my disappointment and concerns about the on going shambles within the BHS. The staff there looked suitably apologetic and were not at all dismissive of my comments.


----------



## ViolettaTears (2 May 2019)

honetpot said:



			Perhaps the 'advertised' internally.
		
Click to expand...

No ... I'm not surprised, but sad to say there is nothing. No advert anywhere. Nothing on google, nothing in the national papers, nothing in Horse and Hound, nothing on BHS Facebook or Twitter etc etc etc


----------



## ViolettaTears (2 May 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			I visited the BHS stand at Badminton today, and passed on my disappointment and concerns about the on going shambles within the BHS. The staff there looked suitably apologetic and were not at all dismissive of my comments.
		
Click to expand...

Well done. We might pop in and see them on Saturday. We feel sorry for the girls on the stand. In recent years we've been to see them and sat and had a cup of tea and a chat sometimes, they are usually a nice bunch of stoneleigh girls and some volunteers. We need to keep on raising the issues. Still can't believe that the trustees are even allowing the former CE to become a trustee and the poor new CE, who probably a bit like Mary Poppins will just appear without an advert going in the paper, having to stand up and present their ideas in front of her. You really couldn't make it up!!


----------



## Themis (2 May 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			JOB ADVERT FOR THE NEW CE AT BHS .... Where is it? Anyone seen it? The answer is a resounding "no".  This is very strange as the exit arrangements of the former CE would have been undertaken at least three months ago. It is normal charity practice to hire a headhunter within days, get a public advert up in say The Times and The Guardian and for us the H and H with applicants being screened and first interviewed by the Headhunter before a long list going to the Chair and trustees before a short list being interviewed. But all we have is a big fat silence which is way beyond odd and out of kilter with any other charity recruitment process. Or is it a done deal with either the current Director of Education or COO being neatly slotted in??? Anyways, the former CE has left the building so Stoneleigh reception have confirmed and no longer works there.
		
Click to expand...

No advert no sign of search not a trace of headhunters


----------



## Themis (2 May 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			I visited the BHS stand at Badminton today, and passed on my disappointment and concerns about the on going shambles within the BHS. The staff there looked suitably apologetic and were not at all dismissive of my comments.
		
Click to expand...

Well done Tiddlypom. Now we need more people to deliver the message face to face, like we did.


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (2 May 2019)

Themis said:



			Well done Tiddlypom. Now we need more people to deliver the message face to face, like we did.
		
Click to expand...

Its Royal Windsor next week, the BHS stand is there too.


----------



## Themis (2 May 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Well, you WOULD expect to find it on the BHS web site - NADA!
		
Click to expand...

And you would expect to see the date for the general meeting requisitioned by petition. Now over due and in violation of Companies Act.


----------



## Themis (2 May 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Its Royal Windsor next week, the BHS stand is there too.
		
Click to expand...

Yes. In some ways, Windsor is another opportunity to make your views known. Why do they think they are above the law?


----------



## ConnecticutYankee (3 May 2019)

What is all this about a consulting company interviewing people around the country to sort out communication? Fit for the Future - what about the present? Many people couldn't even get the survey open. And many didn't even get it. Just another reason to delay the requisitioned general meeting. And another big price tag - 5 healthy figures for a safe bet. For what? More gloss on messages that have fallen on deaf ears for years. More polishing a horse turd. Come on Charity Commission - grab the reins here. Or do members have to pass the hat to create a legal fund to deal with the Companies Act violations themselves.


----------



## honetpot (3 May 2019)

Probabely.


----------



## pink unicorn (4 May 2019)

Violettears said:



			Hello everyone, I have been following all this.. been a bhs member for a long time and i find it bad that it seems to be a few individuals who want to spoil all the good work that bhs does... and not talk about that in the last few years they have gone right up in my opinion. A friend of mine was at the meeting and told me that it was just a few individuals who had a personal agenda. Itâ€™s got far too personal if you ask me. Come on you lot, there are over 100,000 members allegedly, thatâ€™s a lot of horsey people who think bhs do good!
		
Click to expand...

This members sound like the old ceo


----------



## ECB (4 May 2019)

pink unicorn said:



			This members sound like the old ceo
		
Click to expand...

I quite agree. Sounds just like the former ceo! A few people? Well 44 signed the petition. 1000 or so on social media. Sounds like way more than a few!


----------



## Cheerup (5 May 2019)

pink unicorn said:



			This members sound like the old ceo
		
Click to expand...

The â€œFew Individualsâ€ are the voice of many others who have â€œjobsâ€ and â€œQualificationsâ€ on the line.
Perhaps you could start a forum for the 100,000 members who are happy with the present management, and do not want change.


----------



## honetpot (5 May 2019)

Cheerup said:



			The â€œFew Individualsâ€ are the voice of many others who have â€œjobsâ€ and â€œQualificationsâ€ on the line.
Perhaps you could start a forum for the 100,000 members who are happy with the present management, and do not want change.
		
Click to expand...

 Well I do not have a job or a quali at stake. Its interesting that you mention the other 100k members. I have been looking for information of how the BHS is run since December, and it been very hard to get any information out of BHS HO, and thats even with emailing.

 In British Horse, which is the main way of communicating with members, there was very little information about the meeting on the 5th January, and since then no discussion of the issues. Members have not been sent copies of the proposed Strategic plan, unveiled in a lovely glossy pamphlet. Why would you not want to tell all your members you plans?
Why are not all members getting emails, even though they say they have told them their email?
 I think the majority of the 100k members have no idea that the BHS is losing money, and no idea of the poor management of staff and volenteers, some of which some are very well respected volenteers who were effectively sacked after many years of service. 
  So for anyone who didn't know members have called for an EGM to discuss the issues, and call for a vote of no confidence in the currant Board, the charities form is a company, governed by the Companies Act, which gives members legal rights. We are just trying to exercise those rights.


----------



## Themis (5 May 2019)

Cheerup said:



			The â€œFew Individualsâ€ are the voice of many others who have â€œjobsâ€ and â€œQualificationsâ€ on the line.
Perhaps you could start a forum for the 100,000 members who are happy with the present management, and do not want change.
		
Click to expand...

I have no job or business or qualifications on the line. I do note that some of the Board do. If what you say is true about the happy 100k, where is their unified voice? Or for that matter- other than a really few isolated comments, their voices are noticeably silent.


----------



## pink unicorn (5 May 2019)

Cheerup said:



			The â€œFew Individualsâ€ are the voice of many others who have â€œjobsâ€ and â€œQualificationsâ€ on the line.
Perhaps you could start a forum for the 100,000 members who are happy with the present management, and do not want change.
		
Click to expand...

Ok so the 2013 articles that were past with 46 votes and 2018 with 167 votes certainly were not a representation of the membership  at least here and on the membership page has engaged a greater proportion of the membership views


----------



## honetpot (5 May 2019)

The Members Group, and others involved have some how managed to inform themselves on the Companies Act and the rights of members and communicate the issues  to the wider membership without the advantages of paid legal advisors , paid advertising, or access to people contact details.


----------



## pink unicorn (5 May 2019)

The  BHS tried to increase co-option, believing they have a ignorant membership, they failed and still do,  to appreciate that the membership, is filled with leaders of industry, legal and financial professionals etc that qualifications far exceed the current board, or exiting CEO


----------



## ViolettaTears (6 May 2019)

Morning everyone. We didn't get to Badminton in the end but watched it on TV - thrilling and delighted for Piggy. Other friends did get to the BHS stand and this year but for the first time ever there was no cups of tea for members, but the charity is paying for two expensive lunches from outside caterers at Windsor for the 'great and the good' so that's alright then.  This is really basic stuff and so many own goals scored its just makes us angry one minute and sad as well.  On another note it's good that the long lost minutes of the meetings have finally been put up on the website, but we shouldn't have to keep asking for this stuff, the trustees have a responsibility to make sure that basic governance like this is done. We want to see three things. one: the asked for and promised EGM so we can publicly, openly debate the issues ie public transparency, two: concrete evidence that the trustees have got a headhunter and a plan to replace the CE (three months since her leaving was announced is ridiculous) and three: we want to see the Annual Report published. Under company house and charity commission guidelines they can stretch publication of the Annual Report until August (9 months after they closed the books on 31 December 2018). The Annual Report will already have been audited and it will have already been signed off by trustees. So in the spirit of openness and transparency and an act to show that the trustees are really listening, get it published so we can see who has been paid off, the real profit from the membership income and how our charity money has been spent. It is OUR charity. Not the staffs or trustees or chairmans or CE. Ours.


----------



## Tiddlypom (6 May 2019)

No, there were no cups of tea on offer to members at Badminton. There were sessions going on within the stand with the mechanical horse, for which IIRC a voluntary donation of Â£5 was suggested. When I was there, a clearly very nervous and rather large lady, who stated that she hadn't ridden a horse for over a year, got on it. The 'instructor' then ignored her and looked everywhere else but at her student, who was trying her best to get used to the feel of the beast. I really felt for her, and was rather bemused by the whole thing.


----------



## JanetGeorge (6 May 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			No, there were no cups of tea on offer to members at Badminton. There were sessions going on within the stand with the mechanical horse, for which IIRC a voluntary donation of Â£5 was suggested. When I was there, a clearly very nervous and rather large lady, who stated that she hadn't ridden a horse for over a year, got on it. The 'instructor' then ignored her and looked everywhere else but at her student, who was trying her best to get used to the feel of the beast. I really felt for her, and was rather bemused by the whole thing.
		
Click to expand...

Heck - I still remember takin a mechanical horse to Burghley - must have been 2000.  Troube was, thee were only mechanical racehorses back then - and they galloped.  Impossible to ride them in the dressage seat, lol.  It was a non-stop teaching job.


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (6 May 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			No, there were no cups of tea on offer to members at Badminton. There were sessions going on within the stand with the mechanical horse, for which IIRC a voluntary donation of Â£5 was suggested. When I was there, a clearly very nervous and rather large lady, who stated that she hadn't ridden a horse for over a year, got on it. The 'instructor' then ignored her and looked everywhere else but at her student, who was trying her best to get used to the feel of the beast. I really felt for her, and was rather bemused by the whole thing.
		
Click to expand...

Hope the tea and cake will be at Windsor this week!


----------



## Velcrobum (6 May 2019)

I was not going to go to Windsor but I think I might just to go and visit BHS stand and ask more questions. Got fed a party line at Badminton.........
Did not see the lorry there I wonder if it will make an appearance at Windsor. Does anyone think the puppet will be seen ever again?????


----------



## onemoretime (6 May 2019)

pink unicorn said:



			This members sound like the old ceo
		
Click to expand...

You are probably right Pink Unicorn!


----------



## onemoretime (6 May 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			I was not going to go to Windsor but I think I might just to go and visit BHS stand and ask more questions. Got fed a party line at Badminton.........
Did not see the lorry there I wonder if it will make an appearance at Windsor. Does anyone think the puppet will be seen ever again?????
		
Click to expand...

I saw no lorry and no puppet and no tea or coffee in the BHS stand.  I suppose they are cutting back and tea and coffee are the first things to cut out!


----------



## sywell (6 May 2019)

I think the comment about the small number of people complaining out of the total membership is understandable many people are reluctant to put their head above the parapit but if they had worked for many years with Shelia Hardy and respected her hard work and sensible decisions they would not hesitate. I was quite shocked that no one asked the minister a question at the Equine Forum in spite of the serious mistakes DEFRA are making over the CED as if the NED was not bad enough.


----------



## jofwigby (6 May 2019)

sywell said:



			I think the comment about the small number of people complaining out of the total membership is understandable many people are reluctant to put their head above the parapit but if they had worked for many years with Shelia Hardy and respected her hard work and sensible decisions they would not hesitate. I was quite shocked that no one asked the minister a question at the Equine Forum in spite of the serious mistakes DEFRA are making over the CED as if the NED was not bad enough.
		
Click to expand...

Most of the questions were scripted at the Forum - none of the charities have been remotely interested in the CED and have only recently jumped on board now that it seems there are money making and training opportunities - its all aimed at High Health Horses who have everything in order anyway. Drives me to distraction.


----------



## ECB (7 May 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			I was not going to go to Windsor but I think I might just to go and visit BHS stand and ask more questions. Got fed a party line at Badminton.........
Did not see the lorry there I wonder if it will make an appearance at Windsor. Does anyone think the puppet will be seen ever again?????
		
Click to expand...

No I think the broken puppet will stay in the closet - hiding until closer to the election. Then it will stand for election having been approved by the Nominations Committee. And after the current Chair exits (rumoured to be September) it will stand for Chair and be transformed into the puppet controller herself.


----------



## pink unicorn (7 May 2019)

ECB said:



			No I think the broken puppet will stay in the closet - hiding until closer to the election. Then it will stand for election having been approved by the Nominations Committee. And after the current Chair exits (rumoured to be September) it will stand for Chair and be transformed into the puppet controller herself.
		
Click to expand...




ECB said:



			No I think the broken puppet will stay in the closet - hiding until closer to the election. Then it will stand for election having been approved by the Nominations Committee. And after the current Chair exits (rumoured to be September) it will stand for Chair and be transformed into the puppet controller herself.
		
Click to expand...

it will have more qualifications, honesty and common sense than any of the other current board !!!!! LOL


----------



## onemoretime (7 May 2019)

pink unicorn said:



			it will have more qualifications, honesty and common sense than any of the other current board !!!!! LOL
		
Click to expand...

Too right Pink Unicorn.


----------



## ECB (7 May 2019)

pink unicorn said:



			it will have more qualifications, honesty and common sense than any of the other current board !!!!! LOL
		
Click to expand...

And more humanity as well.


----------



## ConnecticutYankee (11 May 2019)

Seems to be a lot of activity over on the Facebook page. Some members trying to speak on behalf of others and even set up meetings on behalf of members. In my opinion, from a legal, moral, and ethical perspective - the next step has to be the general meeting called by the members petition that was received in March. The Charity Commission knows this and are watching this space. Don't derail the democratic process - the meeting will be open to all members. No other process can do this democratically. Beware of the Trojan Horse with an "olive branch".


----------



## Cheerup (11 May 2019)

Fred Hodges is charming with an â€œIron Manâ€ reputation who has been unwittingly been put in a difficult position.

   Unfortunately his lack of research and continuous questions demonstrate his complete lack of ability, his stupidity and his lack of understanding of the power and longevity of social media.

   Fred is being used by the establishment to kick the can down the road.

   The few people who have the courage to write in these social columns are going to get the â€œBHSâ€ into a better position, despite the general malaise of over legislation in the modern world.

   The people who are steering Fred Hodges care more for their qualifications and incomes than the good order of the â€œBHSâ€


----------



## onemoretime (11 May 2019)

Very true Cheerup and very well said.  
Fred is just taking the whole situation into ever decreasing circles and quite frankly getting nowhere!  It needs a members meeting where all the problems can be sorted out once and for all and hopefully get the once great BHS back on the right track.


----------



## ViolettaTears (11 May 2019)

Cheerup said:



			Fred Hodges is charming with an â€œIron Manâ€ reputation who has been unwittingly been put in a difficult position.

   Unfortunately his lack of research and continuous questions demonstrate his complete lack of ability, his stupidity and his lack of understanding of the power and longevity of social media.

   Fred is being used by the establishment to kick the can down the road.

   The few people who have the courage to write in these social columns are going to get the â€œBHSâ€ into a better position, despite the general malaise of over legislation in the modern world.

   The people who are steering Fred Hodges care more for their qualifications and incomes than the good order of the â€œBHSâ€
		
Click to expand...


Two things about Fred Hodges. One his yard isn't BHS Approved and never has been, even when he was a Trustee. So, either his yard isn't/wasn't up to BHS standards and/or he wouldn't pay the BHS fees.  Two his expenses, when he was a trustee, were higher than anyones because he claimed back every single thing he could.


----------



## ECB (11 May 2019)

The ONLY route forward that makes sense is an open general meeting, as petitioned, where any member can attend. As a long time member (more than 30 years) of the BHS, I do not support anyone else speaking for me. I have worked hard to discover the facts and understand the issues. I  do NOT support any moves for a meeting other than the general meeting as petitioned by members. I am one of the people who signed the petition. Fred, Sarah Jane, and others - Do not try to deny the legal rights of members. Instead of helping, this plan to set aside the legal rights of members and forgo the general meeting could lead the BHS somewhere you don't intend.


----------



## onemoretime (11 May 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			Two things about Fred Hodges. One his yard isn't BHS Approved and never has been, even when he was a Trustee. So, either his yard isn't/wasn't up to BHS standards and/or he wouldn't pay the BHS fees.  Two his expenses, when he was a trustee, were higher than anyones because he claimed back every single thing he could.
		
Click to expand...

Well well well the truth shall out!!


----------



## ECB (12 May 2019)

The puppet was on show at Windsor. Cost more than Â£20,000! Think of what that money could do for welfare cases like these 
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/rotting-body-foal-found-maggot-14981930​


----------



## Themis (12 May 2019)

Copied this from a related thread about the BHS Election & Rights of Members - 
Looking back to the suspicious changes to the Articles of Association in 2013 & 2016 - check the postings from pink unicorn above - note that the chair person (CA) was the same. And this is the same person who allowed the CEO to be hired without advertising - overruling the views of the Board. And look who else was on the Board in 2016 - it's Fred- the recent noise maker on the Facebook page who's been trying to set up a meeting to speak on behalf of members and bump the general meeting, legally called by petition, into the long grass.


----------



## onemoretime (12 May 2019)

Well Im not surprised regarding CA hiring LP without advertising and overruling the Board its cloak and dagger all the way and as for Fred, well he has just been put on the FB site to fob everyone off and cause even further delay!


----------



## ConnecticutYankee (12 May 2019)

onemoretime said:



			Well Im not surprised regarding CA hiring LP without advertising and overruling the Board its cloak and dagger all the way and as for Fred, well he has just been put on the FB site to fob everyone off and cause even further delay!
		
Click to expand...

Yes. Cloak & dagger& self serving interests. Corrupt through & through. Fred is delaying the legitimate process created by the petition.


----------



## JanetGeorge (12 May 2019)

ConnecticutYankee said:



			Yes. Cloak & dagger& self serving interests. Corrupt through & through. Fred is delaying the legitimate process created by the petition.
		
Click to expand...

No - he's just driving me up the wall  but also seems to have backed off a bit.  Obviously he 'wnats to help' - but having a nasty, suspicious mind, I wonder that's because he wants to keep going to China and etting lots of other jobs.  But - he has no power to delay the petition - that is in the hands of the Chairman - and I have heard (from a reliable source) that it is planned for June.  You CAN be sure it won't be shouted from the rooftops - but there MUST be reasonabe notice given or we'll have something else to take to the CC.  So far I have heard of two potential Trustees who have been accepted - one of them would be very good (the other pretty useless, lol)  These ARE confidential at present so I can say no more, but will make sure you all know as soon as I can.


----------



## ConnecticutYankee (12 May 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			No - he's just driving me up the wall  but also seems to have backed off a bit.  Obviously he 'wnats to help' - but having a nasty, suspicious mind, I wonder that's because he wants to keep going to China and etting lots of other jobs.  But - he has no power to delay the petition - that is in the hands of the Chairman - and I have heard (from a reliable source) that it is planned for June.  You CAN be sure it won't be shouted from the rooftops - but there MUST be reasonabe notice given or we'll have something else to take to the CC.  So far I have heard of two potential Trustees who have been accepted - one of them would be very good (the other pretty useless, lol)  These ARE confidential at present so I can say no more, but will make sure you all know as soon as I can.
		
Click to expand...

And I have heard of two excellent candidates rejected.


----------



## Tiddlypom (12 May 2019)

No puppet or mechanical horse in evidence at the small BHS stand at Chatsworth BE today. Initially I thought the stand was unmanned, but I did eventually spot a bored looking person sitting at the back. She didnâ€™t interact with me, the only other person in the stand at the time, at all.


----------



## JanetGeorge (12 May 2019)

ConnecticutYankee said:



			And I have heard of two excellent candidates rejected.
		
Click to expand...

Yes - and I think one is appealing.  But won't do her any good, I suspect.  After all, Members are obviously thought too dumb to elect the right candidates - job has to be done for them.


----------



## Themis (13 May 2019)

onemoretime said:



			Well Im not surprised regarding CA hiring LP without advertising and overruling the Board its cloak and dagger all the way and as for Fred, well he has just been put on the FB site to fob everyone off and cause even further delay!
		
Click to expand...

Agree completely. What surprises me still is that they don't seem to understand that members see their motives in action! That their attempts to deceive and delay are obvious. And if we can see it - so can the Charity Commission, Inland Revenue, and the Ombudsman!


----------



## ECB (14 May 2019)

The elephant in the room about Mr Clunes 

*Martin Clunes dropped over 'exploitative' elephant ride*


The actor has been dropped as a patron of Born Free after riding a captive elephant for an ITV show.


----------



## JanetGeorge (14 May 2019)

lol, I saw that and couldn't be cruel enough to post it here.  There was no real PROOF that the elephants giving rides was cruel - one assumes they've been raised since very young and aren't scared.  (As the only 'free' elephant I've seen up close was chasing me with malicious intent, I'm not sure if the ever GET scared.)


----------



## ECB (15 May 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			lol, I saw that and couldn't be cruel enough to post it here.  There was no real PROOF that the elephants giving rides was cruel - one assumes they've been raised since very young and aren't scared.  (As the only 'free' elephant I've seen up close was chasing me with malicious intent, I'm not sure if the ever GET scared.)
		
Click to expand...

One may think there is no proof - but the charity "Born Free" thinks there is proof. And Born Free, to their credit, have taken action.


----------



## JanetGeorge (15 May 2019)

I did some research and - oddly enough - found the best info in 'comments' on the Mirror piece.  "
"Contrarian Viewpoint
Several people here are asking why elephant riding should be seen as different to horse riding.
Firstly, elephants have much stronger social bonds than horses - it is extremely traumatic for an elephant to be separated from its group and family bonds last a lifetime, which is not true of horses.
Secondly, tourist elephants often have to carry six passengers, plus its mahoot. This .'saddle' can chafe badly as the elephant sways along and I have seen open sores (some infected) and scarring along many tourist animal's backs and welfare experts often argue that just because an elephant is enormously strong; it doesn't mean its bone structure is suited to carry such heavy loads on its back - many tourist animals suffer debilitating back conditions.
Thirdly and perhaps most importantly, the training and 'breaking' of a young elephants is a long and brutal process; taking up to two years. This 'training', in Thailand known as 'Pajaan' involves removing a very young animal, possibly only a year old, from its mother, isolating it from all other elephants; tethering it, so that it can barely move and beating it, so that its spirit is broken.
So educate yourselves folks and don't ride elephants"

I was easy enough to find - wonder why Martin Clunes doesn't open his eyes.


----------



## ECB (15 May 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			I did some research and - oddly enough - found the best info in 'comments' on the Mirror piece.  "
"Contrarian Viewpoint
Several people here are asking why elephant riding should be seen as different to horse riding.
Firstly, elephants have much stronger social bonds than horses - it is extremely traumatic for an elephant to be separated from its group and family bonds last a lifetime, which is not true of horses.
Secondly, tourist elephants often have to carry six passengers, plus its mahoot. This .'saddle' can chafe badly as the elephant sways along and I have seen open sores (some infected) and scarring along many tourist animal's backs and welfare experts often argue that just because an elephant is enormously strong; it doesn't mean its bone structure is suited to carry such heavy loads on its back - many tourist animals suffer debilitating back conditions.
Thirdly and perhaps most importantly, the training and 'breaking' of a young elephants is a long and brutal process; taking up to two years. This 'training', in Thailand known as 'Pajaan' involves removing a very young animal, possibly only a year old, from its mother, isolating it from all other elephants; tethering it, so that it can barely move and beating it, so that its spirit is broken.
So educate yourselves folks and don't ride elephants"

I was easy enough to find - wonder why Martin Clunes doesn't open his eyes.
		
Click to expand...

Someone(s) have pulled the wool over his eyes for so long it is habit. He has had his eyes shut to human suffering while good people have been hurt and driven out. He has believed the hype and spin and not questioned outrageous actions. He's another "leader" of the "me, me, me - it's all about me" variety.


----------



## honetpot (16 May 2019)

Email today
Notice of a General Meeting

Notice is hereby given that a General Meeting (the â€œMeetingâ€) of The British Horse Society (the â€œSocietyâ€) will be held at The Stareton Hall, National Agricultural and Exhibition Centre, Stoneleigh Park, Stoneleigh, Kenilworth, CV8 2LZ on Tuesday 11 June 2019 at 7.00pm to discuss and vote on the proposed ordinary resolution:

Resolution

To discuss and vote on the proposal of â€œNo confidence in the Chairman, the Board of Trustees, and the Chief Executive of The British Horse Societyâ€.


----------



## Themis (16 May 2019)

And while the petition did not give reasons, as the Chairman points out in his letter, there are many and they are valid. And while there may not be legal precedence and this vote be a political statement, it is an indictment of the behaviour and attitudes of not just the recently resigned CEO but of the Chairman, the Board and the leadership. 45 signatures were gathered without any effort at all. Click that mi-voice button to confirm your attendance or arrange a proxy vote.


----------



## ViolettaTears (17 May 2019)

Themis said:



			And while the petition did not give reasons, as the Chairman points out in his letter, there are many and they are valid. And while there may not be legal precedence and this vote be a political statement, it is an indictment of the behaviour and attitudes of not just the recently resigned CEO but of the Chairman, the Board and the leadership. 45 signatures were gathered without any effort at all. Click that mi-voice button to confirm your attendance or arrange a proxy vote.
		
Click to expand...

well said


----------



## ViolettaTears (17 May 2019)

This morning we are celebrating. The reason is a simple one. The former CE did not make it onto the list for the potential new trustees despite all her best efforts. So she is no longer in post, she won't be a trustee and therefore won't be chairman. This at least is a step in the right direction. We wondered what has changed at Stoneleigh and think it might be the advice being given by the new lawyers since the sacking of the incompetent PWC.


----------



## JanetGeorge (17 May 2019)

If you are a member who hasn't received the e-mail, it's probably time to update your details:  http://bhsmarketing.azurewebsites.n...yiS2nyUPUO_YYb4Z4AcNnab9H9r6o0UkLl2zWPRsWNnog

And if you have still heard nothing by Monday, rind the office and complain (loudly.)


----------



## OldNag (17 May 2019)

C


JanetGeorge said:



			If you are a member who hasn't received the e-mail, it's probably time to update your details:  http://bhsmarketing.azurewebsites.n...yiS2nyUPUO_YYb4Z4AcNnab9H9r6o0UkLl2zWPRsWNnog

And if you have still heard nothing by Monday, rind the office and complain (loudly.)
		
Click to expand...

Thank you Janet. I haven't had an email so have submitted my email addy via that form.


----------



## ViolettaTears (17 May 2019)

OldNag said:



			C


Thank you Janet. I haven't had an email so have submitted my email addy via that form.
		
Click to expand...

Just a thought - what about the older members who don't have an email address. I'm sure I've heard at one of the meetings we've been to that Stoneleigh only have about half of the members email addresses? Presumably DS will write to everyone else and put something in the membership magazine?  Or am I being too much of an optimist???


----------



## Meowy Catkin (17 May 2019)

For people who cannot attend, how do we go about arranging a proxy to vote on our behalf? I don't know anyone (in real life) who is attending.


----------



## Rosemary28 (17 May 2019)

Faracat said:



			For people who cannot attend, how do we go about arranging a proxy to vote on our behalf? I don't know anyone (in real life) who is attending.
		
Click to expand...

I'm in the same boat as you.


----------



## ester (17 May 2019)

I think most people will be in the same boat


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (17 May 2019)

I'm happy to recco a very upstanding member, I have her details as she is happy to proxy vote.  PM me for details x


----------



## ihatework (17 May 2019)

Any chance we can get this meeting live-streamed?

Iâ€™d quite like to vote but would like to hear both sides beforehand (which I assume will happen at the meeting?)


----------



## ester (17 May 2019)

ihatework said:



			Any chance we can get this meeting live-streamed?

Iâ€™d quite like to vote but would like to hear both sides beforehand (which I assume will happen at the meeting?)
		
Click to expand...

yup this


----------



## Cowpony (17 May 2019)

I didn't get the e-mail but I've received a hard copy letter and proxy form in the post today.  Proxies have to be with the independent scrutineer by 7pm on Friday 7 June, and you can appoint the proxy electronically on-line.


----------



## ECB (17 May 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			This morning we are celebrating. The reason is a simple one. The former CE did not make it onto the list for the potential new trustees despite all her best efforts. So she is no longer in post, she won't be a trustee and therefore won't be chairman. This at least is a step in the right direction. We wondered what has changed at Stoneleigh and think it might be the advice being given by the new lawyers since the sacking of the incompetent PWC.
		
Click to expand...

Or it might be the influence of the Charity Commission or the Inland Revenue. Whatever the reasons, 


Faracat said:



			For people who cannot attend, how do we go about arranging a proxy to vote on our behalf? I don't know anyone (in real life) who is attending.
		
Click to expand...

I have raised questions about the exact requirements for a proxy vote. I am attending the meeting and will take proxy votes. Please pm me if you want me to vote for you to support the vote of  no confidence.


----------



## ViolettaTears (17 May 2019)

ECB said:



			Or it might be the influence of the Charity Commission or the Inland Revenue. Whatever the reasons,

I have raised questions about the exact requirements for a proxy vote. I am attending the meeting and will take proxy votes. Please pm me if you want me to vote for you to support the vote of  no confidence.
		
Click to expand...

Yes huge thanks to all the people who have been in touch with the charity commission, it would of course be the outside pressure from members who care so much that has made the difference!


----------



## JanetGeorge (17 May 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			Just a thought - what about the older members who don't have an email address. I'm sure I've heard at one of the meetings we've been to that Stoneleigh only have about half of the members email addresses? Presumably DS will write to everyone else and put something in the membership magazine?  Or am I being too much of an optimist???
		
Click to expand...

I have heard of a few members who have now had the letter in the post.


----------



## ViolettaTears (17 May 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			I have heard of a few members who have now had the letter in the post.
		
Click to expand...

Hi Janet. Yes, we've just got home from being out for the day and there's a letter from the Chairman, which is the same as the email so it appears a belt and braces job. We are going to attend in person! Now isn't the time to let things go.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (17 May 2019)

Has anyone else clicked on the link in their email? 

I know that they need to make sure that proxy votes aren't micast, but I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with the options provided. Will how we voted be anonymous if we fill in this form?


----------



## ECB (18 May 2019)

Faracat said:



			Has anyone else clicked on the link in their email?

I know that they need to make sure that proxy votes aren't micast, but I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with the options provided. Will how we voted be anonymous if we fill in this form?
		
Click to expand...

Here's a useful post from the BHS Members page on Facebook - I believe that to ensure the votes are legitimate they must be linked to membership numbers. The independent scrutineer (as they have been termed) reduces the risk of retaliation, in my opinion. One must make up one's own mind though. I, for one, do not want to be a member of a Society where I fear retaliation. So if such action is taken, I am better off out of it. Perhaps your concern is not retaliation though.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (18 May 2019)

ECB said:



			Here's a useful post from the BHS Members page on Facebook - I believe that to ensure the votes are legitimate they must be linked to membership numbers. The independent scrutineer (as they have been termed) reduces the risk of retaliation, in my opinion. One must make up one's own mind though. I, for one, do not want to be a member of a Society where I fear retaliation. So if such action is taken, I am better off out of it. Perhaps your concern is not retaliation though.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not a member of FB. Would it be possible to post the helpful information here?


----------



## ECB (18 May 2019)

Faracat said:



			I'm not a member of FB. Would it be possible to post the helpful information here?
		
Click to expand...

Thereâ€™s so much more. Please tell me more about your concern or pm me again.


----------



## OldNag (18 May 2019)

I have now received  my letter in the post. I don't like its tone - very anti the General Meeting.

I will make sure I vote.


----------



## ECB (18 May 2019)

OldNag said:



			I have now received  my letter in the post. I don't like its tone - very anti the General Meeting.

I will make sure I vote.
		
Click to expand...

Spread the word please.


----------



## JanetGeorge (18 May 2019)

It's not just anti the General Meeting - it's anti its own Members.


----------



## ECB (18 May 2019)

Something from the FB page


----------



## JanetGeorge (18 May 2019)

ECB said:



			Something from the FB page
		
Click to expand...

And this is one of the Members who signed the requisition for a No Confidence vote - and who is one of those BHS Members that the Chairman speaks of with total contempt!!


----------



## pepino (18 May 2019)

I am a life member and have just received a letter from the BHS inviting me to a meeting on June 11 to vote on a vote of confidence/ no confidence in the governing body. this is the first notification  I have  had of any problems. I have just read all the posts on here and had no idea at all of what has been going on.
I feel the BHS's communication with me has been poor, and what is all this about large lorries, puppets ( seriously ) and moving into China, surely we have enough welfare problems here to deal with as it is.
I don't take H and H either, perhaps I should start now.


----------



## ConnecticutYankee (19 May 2019)

pepino said:



			I am a life member and have just received a letter from the BHS inviting me to a meeting on June 11 to vote on a vote of confidence/ no confidence in the governing body. this is the first notification  I have  had of any problems. I have just read all the posts on here and had no idea at all of what has been going on.
I feel the BHS's communication with me has been poor, and what is all this about large lorries, puppets ( seriously ) and moving into China, surely we have enough welfare problems here to deal with as it is.
I don't take H and H either, perhaps I should start now.
		
Click to expand...

Hello! If you would like, tomorrow  I can help direct you to some links for information about this vote.


----------



## theHeaven (19 May 2019)

that will be help 

same here, received the letter...


----------



## ConnecticutYankee (19 May 2019)

19 May, 08:58 BST 


The postal packs were distributed 2nd class on Thursday and as a consequence, some may not arrive until early next week.

With regard to e-mail, it is possible that it has got caught in the member's spam folder, it has bounced or the member does not have an email address registered with the Society. We would encourage all individuals to check their junk/ spam folder and if they cannot find the e-mail, then to contact Mi-Voice Support. Alternatively, they can also vote by visiting www.mi-vote.com/bhsgm

It is Mi-Voice's policy not to discuss any individual's voting matters other than directly with the person concerned. Please could you ask the two members below to contact support and we will do everything we can to assist.

Many thanks
Ben Thomas
Mi-Voice Support
T: 02380 763958
E: bthomas@mi-voice.com


----------



## ConnecticutYankee (19 May 2019)

ConnecticutYankee said:



			Hello! If you would like, tomorrow  I can help direct you to some links for information about this vote.
		
Click to expand...

Here's a useful link- open to all. https://www.facebook.com/groups/646758525781802/?ref=group_header


----------



## JanetGeorge (19 May 2019)

ConnecticutYankee said:



			Here's a useful link- open to all. https://www.facebook.com/groups/646758525781802/?ref=group_header

Click to expand...

Just to add - this was added as a public info page - all the discussion is on the main Group.  You do need to answer two simple questions to be accepted to the main Group.

As in:  Are you or have you been a member of the BHS: if you answer NO to this one, please say you're interested in joining or words to that effect.

And:  Are you concerned about the management of the BHS.  No is ok if you are a member, lol.  Otherwise, we think there's not a lot of reason to add you to the membership.


----------



## Themis (19 May 2019)

Here's something very useful to begin to understand why a meeting for a vote of confidence was petitioned. This is from the open public info page described above which is connected to the main Group.


----------



## pink unicorn (19 May 2019)

The file attached is a summary of the concerms and questions,


----------



## mavandkaz (19 May 2019)

I know this was asked earlier, but there didn't seem to be a clear answer. 
I would like to vote, but cannot attend. And don't know anyone who is going. 
What can I do? Why is there not an electronic ballot?


----------



## Themis (19 May 2019)

mavandkaz said:



			I know this was asked earlier, but there didn't seem to be a clear answer.
I would like to vote, but cannot attend. And don't know anyone who is going.
What can I do? Why is there not an electronic ballot?
		
Click to expand...

You can file a proxy vote on line or on paper. if you go to 
Here's a useful link- open to all. https://www.facebook.com/groups/646758525781802/?ref=group_header You will see people's names that you can use to complete the proxy vote process.


----------



## Themis (20 May 2019)

INJUSTICE - I posted the following on the BHS Facebook page  with a link to an information page. It was deleted and I am blocked from posting. "As a long serving member and former local Chair, who signed the petition, I respectfully request the right to use this space to provide access for members to further information about the important matters behind the requisitioned meeting. Members deserve the chance to understand the whole picture and make up their own minds on the very important vote."   https://www.facebook.com/groups/646758525781802/?ref=group_header


----------



## OldNag (20 May 2019)

And now they are making it very much look as if the 43 members have asked for the meeting without giving reasons ? Very underhand.


----------



## OldNag (21 May 2019)

The FB is gathering momentum. https://www.facebook.com/groups/membersBHS/


----------



## DD (21 May 2019)

I received a paper vote through the post yesterday and would like a proxy vote. I need someones membership number to put on the form for that. any volunteers?


----------



## Themis (21 May 2019)

POINT OF FACT - this is the second petition calling for a vote of no confidence. 
The first petition, as the Chairman knows, was submitted at the 5 Jan meeting and withdrawn at the end of the meeting at his request with his assurance that concerns were heard, appropriate action would be taken and that the meeting would be reconvened in future. This second petition represents the view of 45, far beyond the 12 members required by the articles; a point  also neglected in the recent letters to members and volunteers.


----------



## Themis (21 May 2019)

Downton Dame said:



			I received a paper vote through the post yesterday and would like a proxy vote. I need someones membership number to put on the form for that. any volunteers?
		
Click to expand...

pm me I will take proxy


----------



## Themis (21 May 2019)

Downton Dame said:



			I received a paper vote through the post yesterday and would like a proxy vote. I need someones membership number to put on the form for that. any volunteers?
		
Click to expand...

PM me and I can help


----------



## LessThanPerfect (21 May 2019)

Sad to see that the BHS hasn't evolved from its elitist attitude. I am a disabled rider but can ride iindependently at all paces, however, I cannot stand or walk unassisted as I can't support my own weight on my legs following spinal and leg damage in a car accident so need to mount from a ramp or block. Around ten years ago I wanted to do the stage one exam and my instructor advised I contact the BHS to see what medical evidence I needed to provide to use a mounting block.

I spoke to a very prominent member of the BHS with the initials JM and explained. His response is burned into my brain to this day, I quote "Oh  we couldn't possibly make an exception for you. To do so would discriminate unfairly against able-bodied riders who at least tried"!!!!!

So maybe I just needed to try harder to mend my spinal injuries.  

Needless to say, I did the ABRS exams instead, a much friendlier organisation all around.


----------



## JanetGeorge (21 May 2019)

LessThanPerfect said:



			Sad to see that the BHS hasn't evolved from its elitist attitude. I am a disabled rider but can ride iindependently at all paces, however, I cannot stand or walk unassisted as I can't support my own weight on my legs following spinal and leg damage in a car accident so need to mount from a ramp or block. Around ten years ago I wanted to do the stage one exam and my instructor advised I contact the BHS to see what medical evidence I needed to provide to use a mounting block.

I spoke to a very prominent member of the BHS with the initials JM and explained. His response is burned into my brain to this day, I quote "Oh  we couldn't possibly make an exception for you. To do so would discriminate unfairly against able-bodied riders who at least tried"!!!!!

So maybe I just needed to try harder to mend my spinal injuries. 

Needless to say, I did the ABRS exams instead, a much friendlier organisation all around.
		
Click to expand...

Hell - that is appalling!  I used to teach an adult rider with lower left leg prosthesis.  A visiting 'Instructor to be' told him he must mount from the left - he didn't bother kicking the idiot with his left leg which WOULD have hurt, lol - he just said: "Oh hell, any side will do".  The idiot did NOT become an RDA Instructor.  Quite apart from the individual with a good reaosn for mounting from a block, I insist my staff ALWAYS mount from a block or a handy haylage bale - good for the horses' training and good for their backs too!


----------



## Meowy Catkin (21 May 2019)

That's just shocking LTP.


----------



## DD (22 May 2019)

Themis said:



			PM me and I can help
		
Click to expand...




LessThanPerfect said:



			Sad to see that the BHS hasn't evolved from its elitist attitude. I am a disabled rider but can ride iindependently at all paces, however, I cannot stand or walk unassisted as I can't support my own weight on my legs following spinal and leg damage in a car accident so need to mount from a ramp or block. Around ten years ago I wanted to do the stage one exam and my instructor advised I contact the BHS to see what medical evidence I needed to provide to use a mounting block.

I spoke to a very prominent member of the BHS with the initials JM and explained. His response is burned into my brain to this day, I quote "Oh  we couldn't possibly make an exception for you. To do so would discriminate unfairly against able-bodied riders who at least tried"!!!!!

So maybe I just needed to try harder to mend my spinal injuries. 

Needless to say, I did the ABRS exams instead, a much friendlier organisation all around.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely appalling and it sums up the BHS to a T


----------



## DD (22 May 2019)

Themis said:



			PM me and I can help
		
Click to expand...

wish i'd picked this up earlier ! I posted it off last night .Thanks very much anyway xxx


----------



## Velcrobum (22 May 2019)

LessThanPerfect said:



			Sad to see that the BHS hasn't evolved from its elitist attitude. I am a disabled rider but can ride iindependently at all paces, however, I cannot stand or walk unassisted as I can't support my own weight on my legs following spinal and leg damage in a car accident so need to mount from a ramp or block. Around ten years ago I wanted to do the stage one exam and my instructor advised I contact the BHS to see what medical evidence I needed to provide to use a mounting block.

I spoke to a very prominent member of the BHS with the initials JM and explained. His response is burned into my brain to this day, I quote "Oh  we couldn't possibly make an exception for you. To do so would discriminate unfairly against able-bodied riders who at least tried"!!!!!

So maybe I just needed to try harder to mend my spinal injuries. 

Needless to say, I did the ABRS exams instead, a much friendlier organisation all around.
		
Click to expand...

That is absolutely horrific!! It is that sort of attitude that has fired up so many people, I went to the January 5th meeting with a very open mind, what happened there worried me and insulted me as a paid up member of reasonable intelligence. The chair possibly not being entirely honest in response to some questions shocked me (car allowance anyone!!) Thank heavens Bob Milton was on the ball and knew the Articles of Association.


----------



## JanetGeorge (23 May 2019)

This letter has already been sent to the Chairman today by many of the signatories to the petition for a Vote of No Confidence.  Any members of the who are happy with and support its content, might like to sign and send to *david.sheerin@bhs.org.uk*

There has been a LOT of work go into its preparation and I congratulate the prime movers on this â€“ I know how many hours of work has been involved in double-checking all facts and trying to get the tone right.  

If you are one of those with additional thoughts or concerns you would like to add, here is one suggested possibility:    "Obviously, not all of us who support all of the information that those who signed the petition have managed to collate have seen everything detailed, but I have seen enough hard evidence to vote for the motion."


----------



## Themis (23 May 2019)

LessThanPerfect said:



			Sad to see that the BHS hasn't evolved from its elitist attitude. I am a disabled rider but can ride iindependently at all paces, however, I cannot stand or walk unassisted as I can't support my own weight on my legs following spinal and leg damage in a car accident so need to mount from a ramp or block. Around ten years ago I wanted to do the stage one exam and my instructor advised I contact the BHS to see what medical evidence I needed to provide to use a mounting block.

I spoke to a very prominent member of the BHS with the initials JM and explained. His response is burned into my brain to this day, I quote "Oh  we couldn't possibly make an exception for you. To do so would discriminate unfairly against able-bodied riders who at least tried"!!!!!

So maybe I just needed to try harder to mend my spinal injuries. 

Needless to say, I did the ABRS exams instead, a much friendlier organisation all around.
		
Click to expand...

Dreadful. Sounds like you left right on going. Well done!


----------



## ViolettaTears (23 May 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			This letter has already been sent to the Chairman today by many of the signatories to the petition for a Vote of No Confidence.  Any members of the who are happy with and support its content, might like to sign and send to *david.sheerin@bhs.org.uk*

There has been a LOT of work go into its preparation and I congratulate the prime movers on this â€“ I know how many hours of work has been involved in double-checking all facts and trying to get the tone right. 

If you are one of those with additional thoughts or concerns you would like to add, here is one suggested possibility:    "Obviously, not all of us who support all of the information that those who signed the petition have managed to collate have seen everything detailed, but I have seen enough hard evidence to vote for the motion."
		
Click to expand...

We have now compared the two missives from BHS HQ and this letter.  It is very evident that DS et al are avid readers of the forum. This letter shows quite clearly that part of the purpose of the DS letter was to mislead us.  Just one example - Ms Suddes' case is on line for anyone who cares to read it - it was not thrown out because she didn't or might have had a case against the BHS for wrongful dismissal, but because she entered her plea a day late. If anyone from Stoneleigh is reading this - don't try and pull the wool over our eyes, because the truth will always out.  Congratulations and heart felt thanks to all of those who have put so much time and effort in getting the truth out there. It is time for Changing Boards rather than Changing Lives


----------



## JanetGeorge (24 May 2019)

Why the heck am I awake at 4.13am;  probably because I am in shock at the actions of a couple of members who seem to think there should be no restraint in fighting against the motion of No Confidence.  Last night, on the FB British Horse Society Members Group, a former Trustee posted a redacted witness statement from the successful Unfair Dismissal case 'won' by Sheila Hardy, along with a contemptuous message.  Sadly, I forgot to keep a copy of the message as I just knew that this was probably unlawful and deleted without screenshotting first.  A few people saw it, and another member queried the motive in posting the witness statement - thinking it wrong.  A 'supporter' of the Chairman posted a defamatory post about the plaintiff who - the Court had ruled, WAS unfairly dismissed.  (And that WAS screen-shotted before being deleted. )  It was disgusting behaviour by both - but the most alarming question was:  Who made court documents available to the former Trustee to use in this way???  Was it done with the Chairman's knowledge??  

The 'legality' (forget the moral issues) of publishing Court documents has relaxed a little in recent legal history.   In a recent High Court judgement:  ""there may be a legitimate public interest in the inspection not only of statements of case lodged with the court, but also, with permission, other documents such as witness statements or exhibits placed on the court file."  Note the 'with permission'.   With such strict GDPR rules, how did a former Trustee get these documents to 'use' in this way?  Perhaps that is a question the Charity Commissioners might like the answer to!  I think most members would like to know too!


----------



## Kaylum (24 May 2019)

I didn't understand why they posted that? What was the purpose of it? How did they get hold of it?


----------



## JanetGeorge (24 May 2019)

Kaylum said:



			I didn't understand why they posted that? What was the purpose of it? How did they get hold of it?
		
Click to expand...

Very good questions Kaylum - still trying to find answers.  It appears to be an attempt to discredit the information provided about the REASONS for the Vote of No Confidence - but why?  I wonder (but not a lot.)


----------



## ViolettaTears (24 May 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Why the heck am I awake at 4.13am;  probably because I am in shock at the actions of a couple of members who seem to think there should be no restraint in fighting against the motion of No Confidence.  Last night, on the FB British Horse Society Members Group, a former Trustee posted a redacted witness statement from the successful Unfair Dismissal case 'won' by Sheila Hardy, along with a contemptuous message.  Sadly, I forgot to keep a copy of the message as I just knew that this was probably unlawful and deleted without screenshotting first.  A few people saw it, and another member queried the motive in posting the witness statement - thinking it wrong.  A 'supporter' of the Chairman posted a defamatory post about 
the plaintiff who - the Court had ruled, WAS unfairly dismissed.  (And that WAS screen-shotted before being deleted. )  It was disgusting behaviour by both - but the most alarming question was:  Who made court documents available to the former Trustee to use in this way???  Was it done with the Chairman's knowledge?? 

The 'legality' (forget the moral issues) of publishing Court documents has relaxed a little in recent legal history.   In a recent High Court judgement:  ""there may be a legitimate public interest in the inspection not only of statements of case lodged with the court, but also, with permission, other documents such as witness statements or exhibits placed on the court file."  Note the 'with permission'.   With such strict GDPR rules, how did a former Trustee get these documents to 'use' in this way?  Perhaps that is a question the Charity Commissioners might like the answer to!  I think most members would like to know too!
		
Click to expand...

Good morning Janet. First of all we want to congratulate you for all the work you are doing in the public interest of the members. Thank you to you and all of the team that are casting light on all this subterfuge. Utterly aghast to read your post this morning. Desperate times create desperate behavior and putting up witness statements is beyond the pale. The Judge's written judgement is the only publicly available document that we've ever seen from months ago posts. We are guessing you're talking about FH as the ex trustee, who as we all know, thinks so much of the BHS that his yard isn't and never has been BHS approved.  If he really believes in the future of the BHS then why doesn't he get his yard approved then he will be in a position to really add to the debate, until then his opinions aren't really of note.


----------



## JanetGeorge (24 May 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			Good morning Janet. First of all we want to congratulate you for all the work you are doing in the public interest of the members. Thank you to you and all of the team that are casting light on all this subterfuge. Utterly aghast to read your post this morning. Desperate times create desperate behavior and putting up witness statements is beyond the pale. .
		
Click to expand...

Thanks  ViolettaTears - I just wish we didn't have to do it.  In the interests of total transparency (from a disgruntled ex-member with a vendetta, lol) I have e-mailed the Chairman with details of his 'friends' misdemeanours.  Only fair to give him a chance to wipe the blood off the carpet.


----------



## ihatework (24 May 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Thanks  ViolettaTears - I just wish we didn't have to do it.  In the interests of total transparency (from a disgruntled ex-member with a vendetta, lol) I have e-mailed the Chairman with details of his 'friends' misdemeanours.  Only fair to give him a chance to wipe the blood off the carpet.
		
Click to expand...

If what you say is true (and Iâ€™m not challenging you that itâ€™s not) but the Chairman response to this will cement my decision to vote or not.

If the BHS fail to a) distribute the recent letter and b) take appropriate action against someone publishing court papers [bearing in mind they allegedly dismissed a volunteer for publishing a â€˜not confidentialâ€™ organogram] then you have my vote


----------



## JanetGeorge (24 May 2019)

ihatework said:



			If what you say is true (and Iâ€™m not challenging you that itâ€™s not) but the Chairman response to this will cement my decision to vote or not.

If the BHS fail to a) distribute the recent letter and b) take appropriate action against someone publishing court papers [bearing in mind they allegedly dismissed a volunteer for publishing a â€˜not confidentialâ€™ organogram] then you have my vote
		
Click to expand...

lol, don't worry, ihatework, I think I have plenty of proof of the latest lot too.  Including the messages between myself and the ex-Trustee when I tried to explain to him in words of not too many syllables why I deleted his post and what my nest steps where, and he just answered with insults.  And heavens, he even accused me of being thick skinned because I said I wasn't too hurt by his allegations, lol.


----------



## ycbm (24 May 2019)

Since they are reading this thread, my message to the BHS is that I'm looking for an organisation whose aims I respect to give my money to, who will, while helping horses and riders in the UK & NI,  give me third party insurance cover and legal advice.

I can assure you, from the clear and indisputable evidence provided that you are not acting in the interests of horses, members, employees or volunteers, that it won't be the BHS.

I'm sure I'm not alone. You need to sort this, and not in the way you are trying to do it now.


----------



## ECB (24 May 2019)

pepino said:



			I am a life member and have just received a letter from the BHS inviting me to a meeting on June 11 to vote on a vote of confidence/ no confidence in the governing body. this is the first notification  I have  had of any problems. I have just read all the posts on here and had no idea at all of what has been going on.
I feel the BHS's communication with me has been poor, and what is all this about large lorries, puppets ( seriously ) and moving into China, surely we have enough welfare problems here to deal with as it is.
I don't take H and H either, perhaps I should start now.
		
Click to expand...

Don't waste your money Pepino. BHS pays them a bundle (approx 80K this year) and H&H is a mouthpiece. Just look at what they posted in that little column space about mediation being declined. Mediation is not wholly appropriate when a petition is already lodged. And by the way, it was the second petition. The first one was withdrawn at the close of the 5 January meeting in the belief that the issues would begin to be addressed and that the meeting would be reconvened. The Board decided not to reconvene. Is a petition any surprise then? But what I find unacceptable as a member, is the language of the Chairman's letters. Misleading, minimising, marginalising, disrespectful and dismissive and in some place just wrong. He is clearly continuing the party line of the now resigned CEO who said everything was great and everyone was happy. Well I don't think so!


----------



## suestowford (25 May 2019)

It would be interesting to know if many people feel as you do ycbm. I didn't renew my membership this year, because of all this. Just too many things that don't sit right, for me. I wonder how many others have also not given their money to BHS this year?


----------



## Velcrobum (26 May 2019)

My membership is renewable after this EGM and the Trustee elections so I am going to make my choice when I see the new board and chair. At present I am disinclined to renew. I have found the Chairman's letters patronising and have been pointing people towards the available information so they can make their own minds up and chose to vote or not. While I did not see the now removed post that Janet refers to #1,085 I was shocked by some of the vitriol that subsequently appeared seemingly supporting the ex-trustee's actions. It would be very interesting to know how that person got hold of said documents.


----------



## Velcrobum (26 May 2019)

No wonder the ex-trustee is so pro the current BHS gravy train - found on a public page !!!

***** is an enthusiastic and driven coach who has worked in the horse industry for over 20 years. Starting from local riding schools near his hometown of Southend he moved on quickly to compete horses in British Eventing competitions and British Dressage. **** has competed successfully in eventing up to 2* level and in Advanced dressage. **** is a British Horse Society senior assessor and a trainee dressage judge for British Dressage who works extensively in the UK and abroad including Ireland, USA and China*


----------



## ECB (27 May 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			No wonder the ex-trustee is so pro the current BHS gravy train - found on a public page !!!

***** is an enthusiastic and driven coach who has worked in the horse industry for over 20 years. Starting from local riding schools near his hometown of Southend he moved on quickly to compete horses in British Eventing competitions and British Dressage. **** has competed successfully in eventing up to 2* level and in Advanced dressage. **** is a British Horse Society senior assessor and a trainee dressage judge for British Dressage who works extensively in the UK and abroad including Ireland, USA and China*

Click to expand...

If you look closely, there does seem to be a self serving circle using the charity to meet their ego and financial needs. I fear the recent changes in the Companies House information regarding BHS International (China, UAE, and potentially USA) alongside the report of the recent attendance of the ex-CEO at a biosecurity meeting - with the current head of Welfare on leave - may be a signal of changes ahead.  Members spoiler alert!


----------



## JanetGeorge (28 May 2019)

ECB said:



			If you look closely, there does seem to be a self serving circle using the charity to meet their ego and financial needs. I fear the recent changes in the Companies House information regarding BHS International (China, UAE, and potentially USA) alongside the report of the recent attendance of the ex-CEO at a biosecurity meeting - with the current head of Welfare on leave - may be a signal of changes ahead.  Members spoiler alert!
		
Click to expand...

lol, how on earth did you find it - I haven't yet!  The 'search' function on Companies House is useless - searching for BHS International brought up nearly 70,000 so-called 'matches'.  The first 10 appear irrelevant to this BHS.


----------



## JanetGeorge (29 May 2019)

Too Little, Too Late??
This 'offer' appeared on the BHS Facebook page yesterday.  I have to wonder how honest the answers will be.


----------



## ihatework (29 May 2019)

Well I havenâ€™t yet seen the letter officially circulated (although I do think you shot yourselves in the foot slightly drafting it so late).

Any progress on the redacted court papers being put on social media?


----------



## JanetGeorge (29 May 2019)

ihatework said:



			Any progress on the redacted court papers being put on social media?
		
Click to expand...

That's being kept for the meeting - I don't think we'd get an answer to a letter on that subject, lol.


----------



## JanetGeorge (30 May 2019)

Eek!  What the BHS wants for its next CE is now 'official' - the advert alone would be enough to scare me off. https://www.indeed.co.uk/m/viewjob?...a6OPLorsjyqgECddCkpEM_e-gN3UNnUl3mhnsX57gAqnQ


----------



## ViolettaTears (4 June 2019)

ihatework said:



			Well I havenâ€™t yet seen the letter officially circulated (although I do think you shot yourselves in the foot slightly drafting it so late).

Any progress on the redacted court papers being put on social media?
		
Click to expand...




JanetGeorge said:



			Eek!  What the BHS wants for its next CE is now 'official' - the advert alone would be enough to scare me off. https://www.indeed.co.uk/m/viewjob?...a6OPLorsjyqgECddCkpEM_e-gN3UNnUl3mhnsX57gAqnQ

Click to expand...




JanetGeorge said:



			Eek!  What the BHS wants for its next CE is now 'official' - the advert alone would be enough to scare me off. https://www.indeed.co.uk/m/viewjob?...a6OPLorsjyqgECddCkpEM_e-gN3UNnUl3mhnsX57gAqnQ

Click to expand...

Three things about the CE Job Advert. First the Headhunter is predominantly an Interim Recruitment Agency, so it's database will be full of interim contacts, not candidates looking for a permanent job. Second, Indeed the free job site which is the only place the job is advertised (outside of the interim agency's own site) is used for middle to junior management, not CEs. Third, why isn't the job on Linked in or Third Sector or even the BHS Twitter and FB page or Linked in Page??? Because it's a done deal and will go to someone inside Stoneleigh Towers or an ex trustee, which will mean nothing will change. DS we know the marketing people read the forum for you, so get the advert into The Times, it will take less than 24 hours to organise and will show us that you and the board are truly committed to getting as wide a selection of candidates as possible. It's only with a new CE from OUTSIDE Stoneleigh, that the BHS has any hope at all of ever changing and allowing the staff to truly be able to say what they really think rather than being "Yes-People" to protect their mortgages incase they get fired for having a different view. Last but by no means least, the live event on FB today is going to be yet another farce with questions in advance, which won't be happening on the 11th by the way!! What are the chances of the question, "So David why did you travel First Class on Charity Money", or "Are you sacking the trustee who has broken the BHS Trustee Code of Conduct via her social media posts like you have with other staff who have privately messaged an individual?", being asked and being answered truthfully and transparently ..... About as much chance of Saddiq Khan having afternoon tea at Fortnum and Masons with Donald Trump before he goes back to the US ie Never.


----------



## JanetGeorge (4 June 2019)

A couple of updates for those of you who are not on FB.  This was posted n the BHS Members' Group (by me) this morning.

Thank you to a member who prompted me to have another look at the most recent letter
 sent by the Chairman to members who had asked questions in the run up to the GM.  Page 3 section 4 â€“ states â€œ the number of voting members of the Society required to requisition a General Meeting of the Society has been increased from 12 to 0.25% of the membershipâ€¦â€ How can this change, a written resolution, have been made without a vote?

Now â€“ please correct me if Iâ€™m wrong â€“ the proposal to make this change was just one of a number of changes proposed at the 5th January 2019 Meeting. Bob Milton's letter (see files ) shows that the justification for the proposed change was not as presented by the Chairman. That 5 January General Meeting was adjourned because of concerns about those changes and has never been held again so â€“ no vote in favour - no changes made.  

This does look like the Chairman spreading 'misinformation'.


----------



## ViolettaTears (4 June 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			A couple of updates for those of you who are not on FB.  This was posted n the BHS Members' Group (by me) this morning.

Thank you to a member who prompted me to have another look at the most recent letter
sent by the Chairman to members who had asked questions in the run up to the GM.  Page 3 section 4 â€“ states â€œ the number of voting members of the Society required to requisition a General Meeting of the Society has been increased from 12 to 0.25% of the membershipâ€¦â€ How can this change, a written resolution, have been made without a vote?

Now - please correct me if I am wrong - the proposal to make this change was just one of a number of changes proposed at the 5th January 2019 Meeting. Bob Milton's letter (see files ) shows that the justification for the proposed change was not as presented by the Chairman. That 5 January General Meeting was adjourned because of concerns about those changes and has never been held again so â€“ no vote in favour - no changes made. 

This does look like the Chairman spreading 'misinformation'.
		
Click to expand...

IT SURE DOES! History is that the board were forced to put all constitution changes on ice, after the January meeting because they hadn't followed the right procedure and that they said that there was supposed to be a second General /Members meeting to go through the potential changes to the constitution, but that rather than have a second General/Members meeting, the board elected to divide and conquer opposing members and go small and go local to try and break down the 'pockets of resistance', i.e.those members who had a different and informed view of historic and current events. So none of the constitution was or can be changed until there is another General/Members meeting.  This also means by the way that the current Chairman goes in July and a new one will be elected as the constitution hasn't been changed to allow him to stay on. We have no confidence in the current trustees, including those standing down, but the danger is that one of the no-confidence trustees will become Chair rather than one of the new trustees, which is a shame as there are some rather good ones up for election. Nothing will change without a brand new Chair from the newly elected trustees and a brand new external CE, untainted from past decision making and inertia when dealing with the former CE.


----------



## JanetGeorge (4 June 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			IT SURE DOES! History is that the board were forced to put all constitution changes on ice, after the January meeting because they hadn't followed the right procedure and that they said that there was supposed to be a second General /Members meeting to go through the potential changes to the constitution, but that rather than have a second General/Members meeting, the board elected to divide and conquer opposing members and go small and go local to try and break down the 'pockets of resistance', i.e.those members who had a different and informed view of historic and current events. So none of the constitution was or can be changed until there is another General/Members meeting.  This also means by the way that the current Chairman goes in July and a new one will be elected as the constitution hasn't been changed to allow him to stay on. We have no confidence in the current trustees, including those standing down, but the danger is that one of the no-confidence trustees will become Chair rather than one of the new trustees, which is a shame as there are some rather good ones up for election. Nothing will change without a brand new Chair from the newly elected trustees and a brand new external CE, untainted from past decision making and inertia when dealing with the former CE.
		
Click to expand...

ViolettaTears - you are so right.  And I guess that maybe the BEST thing we can do - via this thread, and the FB Group, and the Vote of No Confidence - is impress on new Trustees, a new CEO, and Trustees that remain - that bullying staff, members and volunteers is NOT the way to head the BHS into the very successful future we ALL want it to have.


----------



## ECB (5 June 2019)

DEADLINE FRIDAY - BHS members - the deadline to register to attend the general meeting or to assign your proxy vote is Friday. Your vote is your voice. Use it or lose it. PM me if you need a proxy vote or want to find out more about why this meeting was requisitioned by petition of members.


----------



## ECB (7 June 2019)

If you need a proxy to carry your vote to the BHS meeting, pm me please. Deadline Sunday 7pm.


----------



## ViolettaTears (8 June 2019)

Well the postal votes are in and the deadline to nominate a proxy is Sunday night.  My other half and I are just sitting in the garden watching the ponies in the fields and we are discussing Plato.  

*Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?* is a Latin phrase found in the work of the Roman poet Juvenal from his _Satires_ (Satire VI, lines 347â€“348). It is literally translated as "*Who will guard the guards themselves?*", though it is also known by variant translations, such as "*Who watches the watchers?*" and "*Who'll watch the watchmen?*".

The original context deals with the problem of ensuring marital fidelity, though the phrase is now commonly used more generally to refer to the problem of controlling the actions of persons in positions of power, an issue discussed by Plato in the _Republic_. 

As members it is our job to watch the watchers; the trustees and the chairman, the CE and the Directors.  Those of us who care the most are watching.


----------



## teapot (8 June 2019)

Confirmed in the latest BHS mag that the job of cheif ex will be advertised in Horse and Hound.


----------



## onemoretime (8 June 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Too Little, Too Late??
This 'offer' appeared on the BHS Facebook page yesterday.  I have to wonder how honest the answers will be.

View attachment 32925

Click to expand...


----------



## ViolettaTears (10 June 2019)

Whatever happens tomorrow the Vote of No Confidence is a game changer for the board and directors of the BHS.  It's likely due to the 
inaccurate information in the letters from the Chairman that uninformed members will back the board.  

By the way Forum readers, news has just got to us from a very good source that some of the directors are refusing to follow the COO as acting CE and as a result she isn't going for the job but two other directors are.  We beg of you trustees and chairman, please hire externally otherwise the changes that are needed will not happen.  We all know that the Chairman was internally promoted over and over again at Wellington, to take the top job, but what's good for Wellington isn't good for the BHS.

Fresh thinking and focus is needed to make huge cultural changes, which includes parting company with the personnel director who is one of the biggest problems stopping you moving forward. 

It will be interesting to see how many numbers the 'minority' actually turn out to be in voting terms, more than 45??????


----------



## JanetGeorge (12 June 2019)

Well - a result.  We knew the Vote woud not be passed - the Chairman has full access to ALL members.  When you consider that a mere 5% of members bothered to vote, that makes the figures even more of a warning to the BHS.  829 members - 15% of the members who had bothered attending or giving proxies supported the Vote of No Confidence.  From reports I have had, the meeting was a shambles with NO control of members on the Chairman's side.  Members who had real concerns were shouted down by known 'puppets' of the Chairman - or people with their own agenda.  Of course, the standard letter went out to members in his usual self-congratulatory style.  I doubt the video recording will ever be seen by members.  We await Minutes (not holding breath.)  All I can say is thank goodness the proposed changes to the AoA on 5th January did not get passed - otherwise the BHS would be stuck with the sme Chairman for another 3 years, God forbid!

The fight for change will continue!


----------



## Themis (13 June 2019)

In my opinion, the general meeting was the "live performance" of everything I have experienced first hand and heard from others about the BHS "leadership and governance". A disorganised, dismissive, disrespectful din of denial. It opened with reading a letter from the Charity Commission (not in my opinion relevant to the stated business of the meeting), an esteemed Fellow being interrupted mid sentence by an obviously rude person who was supported by the mob seated around him who shouted and clapped loudly supporting him. (Did anybody recognise any of those people?) Chair lost control of the meeting as did the facilitator. Chairman spoke of rebutting the comments from members.  And the Board either sat stone faced or responded by refuting the truths of members. A decent proposal for a way forward was put forward but lost in the noise. Let's hope it is found again. And to cap it off, a member was assaulted. The vote of no confidence in the Chair and the Board may have only been supported by 829. But with the number of people voting who make their livings via the BHS - who would be surprised at that?


----------



## Velcrobum (13 June 2019)

The person who interrupted Isay Auty was Fred Hodges who is a former trustee who apparently was a trustee during the unfair sacking of Sheila Hardy c*ck up. He apparently is a friend of the chair and has been part of the China visits. Draw your own conclusions............


----------



## JanetGeorge (13 June 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			The person who interrupted Isay Auty was Fred Hodges who is a former trustee who apparently was a trustee during the unfair sacking of Sheila Hardy c*ck up. He apparently is a friend of the chair and has been part of the China visits. Draw your own conclusions............
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely spot on.  We finally had to 'mute' Fred Horges on the  FB Group - as he proved without doubt that he was definitely suited to FRED!  We know they are 'mates', both 'enjoyed' trips to China, and were even 'connected' via a horse (Johnny Irish - eventer.)  How the FRED was dim enough to shout down Islay Auty ... She was an excellent Trustee back in my day, and I had first hand experience of her excellence as an Instructor well before that.  We are yet to identify the man who forced Pat into her seat when she was speaking.  Hopefully, the video of the meeting will help identify him (if it doesn't get lost!)


----------



## teapot (13 June 2019)

He's also a current examiner. 

(Having met him in that remit, he seemed one of the better examiners around. Can't speak for his other involvements/actions.)


----------



## ECB (14 June 2019)

With the several eye witnesses, the video, and the record of votes the identity of the man with the strong arm tactics is very likely to be revealed in due course. So hopefully the truth will out.


----------



## onemoretime (14 June 2019)

Themis said:



			In my opinion, the general meeting was the "live performance" of everything I have experienced first hand and heard from others about the BHS "leadership and governance". A disorganised, dismissive, disrespectful din of denial. It opened with reading a letter from the Charity Commission (not in my opinion relevant to the stated business of the meeting), an esteemed Fellow being interrupted mid sentence by an obviously rude person who was supported by the mob seated around him who shouted and clapped loudly supporting him. (Did anybody recognise any of those people?) Chair lost control of the meeting as did the facilitator. Chairman spoke of rebutting the comments from members.  And the Board either sat stone faced or responded by refuting the truths of members. A decent proposal for a way forward was put forward but lost in the noise. Let's hope it is found again. And to cap it off, a member was assaulted. The vote of no confidence in the Chair and the Board may have only been supported by 829. But with the number of people voting who make their livings via the BHS - who would be surprised at that?
		
Click to expand...


The meeting was a farce and a complete shambles, I expected nothing more!  The chairman still refuses to listen to members and so the rot will go on.  Many members have cancelled their membership, the only way to hit the Board is to withdraw finance!  As for a man assaulting a petite lady during this meeting clearly show how little control the Chairman had on this farcical meeting!


----------



## onemoretime (14 June 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			The person who interrupted Isay Auty was Fred Hodges who is a former trustee who apparently was a trustee during the unfair sacking of Sheila Hardy c*ck up. He apparently is a friend of the chair and has been part of the China visits. Draw your own conclusions............
		
Click to expand...

Fred is just feathering his own nest!


----------



## JanetGeorge (15 June 2019)

Te new thread about alternatives to BHS for insurance really shows how bad it is.  Membership department apparently in melt down over member cancellations.


----------



## Themis (15 June 2019)

Here's a good post from Facebook - In my opinion, this one of the "root causes" of the symptoms we observe. Some members primarily join the "charity" and others primarily join "the brand" for CPD etc and some join both. That range from "charity to CPD", in my opinion, used to be perceived as the unique selling point "USP" of the BHS - it was both a charity and a professional education body. Over time though, in my view, the governance (and governors) have not maintained the balance or perhaps, not managed the perception of a balance. It looks as if the "brand" is all important. We see changes of logo and then large flashy advertising with large price tags after the fact, without well communicated business cases in advance.


----------



## Cheerup (17 June 2019)

I suggest that the BHS confirm their charitable status, because it seems to act as a clearing house for about 4,000 professionals who maintain their status and qualifications under its umbrella. This is not the duty of a charity.

The 104,000 other members are really just there to provide clients, pretend to be charitable and pay for the professional administration of  the 4,000 professionals, the members have been lured by a lot of advertising as well as cheap and cheerful insurance.

Whilst the high standards of the BHS qualifications are recognised throughout the world, inroads into other countries can only be made if that country does not have any objection to their presence, as soon as the present ambassadors have imparted their knowledge, China and such like will create their own Societies, meantime the white elephants in the BHS room will have made a living selling out the systems created and payed for by the BHS members.

There are some unknowing stooges who are being steered by the white elephants in order to keep the society churning along and ignoring bad management for the benefit of the 4,000 professionals who need a base to give themselves creditably. These stooges are devoid of compassion and long term knowledge.

Resigning individual memberships will have little effect on the behaviour of trustees unless these individuals are joined by many more of the top end professionals, most of whom have been uncaringly silent and some have been arrogantly disdainful. These people need to stand up to the plate, otherwise they will continue to be regarded as irresponsible and unworthy of respect.

Gordon Norrie.


----------



## Themis (17 June 2019)

Quite a few of these being sent - 

Thank you for your email and your instruction to cancel your membership with the BHS.

The Board of Trustees and I are deeply saddened by the situation that The British Horse Society has found itself in this week; the General Meeting was a sad event for all of our supporters and there were no winners, regardless of the outcome of the vote. I am truly sorry that you feel that this is the end of the road for your relationship with the BHS after your many years of membership. I do hope that you will continue to observe our progress and eventually feel that you would like to take up your membership again.

Many thanks again for your committed support over the years.


----------



## pony5 (20 June 2019)

Cheerup said:



			I suggest that the BHS confirm their charitable status, because it seems to act as a clearing house for about 4,000 professionals who maintain their status and qualifications under its umbrella. This is not the duty of a charity.

The 104,000 other members are really just there to provide clients, pretend to be charitable and pay for the professional administration of  the 4,000 professionals, the members have been lured by a lot of advertising as well as cheap and cheerful insurance.

Whilst the high standards of the BHS qualifications are recognised throughout the world, inroads into other countries can only be made if that country does not have any objection to their presence, as soon as the present ambassadors have imparted their knowledge, China and such like will create their own Societies, meantime the white elephants in the BHS room will have made a living selling out the systems created and payed for by the BHS members.

There are some unknowing stooges who are being steered by the white elephants in order to keep the society churning along and ignoring bad management for the benefit of the 4,000 professionals who need a base to give themselves creditably. These stooges are devoid of compassion and long term knowledge.

Resigning individual memberships will have little effect on the behaviour of trustees unless these individuals are joined by many more of the top end professionals, most of whom have been uncaringly silent and some have been arrogantly disdainful. These people need to stand up to the plate, otherwise they will continue to be regarded as irresponsible and unworthy of respect.

Gordon Norrie.
		
Click to expand...

There are many professional associations with charitable status.


----------



## honetpot (20 June 2019)

pony5 said:



			There are many professional associations with charitable status.
		
Click to expand...

  Your right there are some professional associations, even boarding schools, and clubs that have a charitable element of their business, to get the tax breaks that charities have.  The public benifit is usually shown by giving bursaries for training or providing faciltities at reduced rates.

I think the difference is with the BHS most members, are totally unaware that the education part is mainly supporting sports professional, the higher up the Stages the more support they seem to get. They are not members by choice, some even get their membership free as part of a package of benifits, they have to be, unlike the rest of the 100,000 that are paying their subs but who are not allowed to purchase the same products. 
 If we were putting money in to education for those that could not afford it, or for welfare edcation,or even people who were just starting there career I would think that was a good idea, but they are providing support and business advice for senior sports coaches. There are about 4000 APC's, and perhaps only 1500 F&I's, and yet the education department has more staff than all the staff welfare, access and saftey put together.


----------



## ViolettaTears (24 June 2019)

We had a real life drama here so missed the meeting, which whilst regrettable from what we read here and have been  told by other members was a foregone conclusion before it started  and the actions of the bhs 'lawyer' were particularly  unprofessional. Hey ho, did we really expect anything less? We are going to vote and then may cancel our membership and can always re new. In the meantime, a friend who works in another animal charity told us about this recent report about CE pay. Remember the former CE was on a ridiculously high salary vs. income ie on par with the RSPCA CE with a fraction of the income. Anyway, the article is below, but the the standout news is that CHIEF EXECUTIVE CHARITY SALARIES HAVE FALLEN IN THE PAST FIVE YEARS ACROSS THE CHARITY SECTOR. So there is no need at all for the BHS to pay the next CE the same inflated salary as before.  Also watch out for the Annual Report, anyone want to bet that the members will get blamed for the spend on legal bills rather than the inept boards lack of action?


Speaking at the Honorary Treasurers Forum last week, Acevo chief executive Vicky Browning said only 46 per cent of charity chief executives currently have formal pay reviews.
Browning said this was â€œa missed opportunityâ€ for charities to see whether they are getting value for money.
She said: â€œPeople are not looking at this in a systematic way to check that what they are paying is appropriate.
â€œIf you are not linking remuneration to progress against agreed targets, whether that is personal targets or organisational targets, how can you ensure your pay levels are proportionate to the value of that chief executive to your organisation?â€
She added: â€œAnyway, itâ€™s poor practice. Boards should be giving the same level of support to their chief execs that they would expect them to give to rest of the organisation.â€
*Public debate affecting CEO pay*
Browning said the increased public scrutiny of chief executive pay has had an effect on the way charities think about remuneration.
She said: â€œWe have anecdotal evidence that charities are taking this much more into consideration. Trustees are much more concerned about issues of reputation that affect this and therefore they are taking it into consideration.
*â€œThe average chief exec salary has fallen over the last five years*. Whether that is to do with media or public opinion or whether that is to do with austerity and reduced contracts is not clear. But it is clear that public opinion is certainly having an effect on the way people are thinking about this.â€
- See more at: https://www.civilsociety.co.uk/news...978b-8136b719f5-87649993#sthash.Lel4OoZF.dpuf
​https://www.civilsociety.co.uk/news...ail&utm_term=0_5a5428978b-8136b719f5-87649993​


----------



## teapot (24 June 2019)

honetpot said:



			Your right there are some professional associations, even boarding schools, and clubs that have a charitable element of their business, to get the tax breaks that charities have.  The public benifit is usually shown by giving bursaries for training or providing faciltities at reduced rates.

I think the difference is with the BHS most members, are totally unaware that the education part is mainly supporting sports professional, the higher up the Stages the more support they seem to get. They are not members by choice, some even get their membership free as part of a package of benifits, they have to be, unlike the rest of the 100,000 that are paying their subs but who are not allowed to purchase the same products.
If we were putting money in to education for those that could not afford it, or for welfare edcation,or even people who were just starting there career I would think that was a good idea, but they are providing support and business advice for senior sports coaches. There are about 4000 APC's, and perhaps only 1500 F&I's, and yet the education department has more staff than all the staff welfare, access and saftey put together.
		
Click to expand...

You only get discounted exam rates if you're an APC, which costs Â£343 a year to include BHS membership. I know and work with a number of APCs and I can assure you they're not getting lots of support, and they're mainly IIs/Stage 4 coaches. I'm training for my 4 flat exam, work in the industry, and get zero support, so no idea where the money IS going.


----------



## Themis (25 June 2019)

pony5 said:



			There are many professional associations with charitable status.
		
Click to expand...

But I know of no other with such a heavy facade and ineffective management.


----------



## Themis (25 June 2019)

Time to take off the rose tinted glasses and look at the facts. 4000+ professionals are invisibly riding on the backs of the 100K members who buy insurance for Â£69 that only costs Â£9. And to top it off, the BHS gets gift aid of 25% on the Â£69! Only 12% goes to the charitable aims. The rest feeds the beast with a salary appetite of over Â£5 million and buys puppets for over Â£20K.


----------



## ViolettaTears (10 July 2019)

All gone very quiet. We had some friends round for supper last night and we all think that Tim Lord will be made the new Chairman, Alex Copeland will be made CEO, Sarah will stay as COO. Having seen Tim in action and Alex, in their hands nothing will change. We are thinking of cancelling our memberships and going to WHW instead as not only is it cheaper but their lot just seem to get on with it. Very very very sad, but with  the current board with their blinkers firmly on, how can it every change?


----------



## Velcrobum (10 July 2019)

I am awaiting the outcome of the election as my membership is not up for renewal until the end of this month. However unless there is a radical change (unlikely but you never know there might be some flying pigs spotted) I will cancel and go to WHW. I have drafted letters to be sent to the individual trustees outlining my reasons (tailored to each trustee) for leaving.


----------



## Themis (11 July 2019)

A few faces may change but the overall pattern is unlikely to shift. A charity is being used to promote professional people and places. A gruesome equivalent would be if the Red Cross provided a register of private blood banks.


ViolettaTears said:



			All gone very quiet. We had some friends round for supper last night and we all think that Tim Lord will be made the new Chairman, Alex Copeland will be made CEO, Sarah will stay as COO. Having seen Tim in action and Alex, in their hands nothing will change. We are thinking of cancelling our memberships and going to WHW instead as not only is it cheaper but their lot just seem to get on with it. Very very very sad, but with  the current board with their blinkers firmly on, how can it every change?
		
Click to expand...


----------



## honetpot (11 July 2019)

I watched the programme last night about RBS, and it seems there is a thread running though all of these.
 Someone has a vision of being bigger and better, a section see an oppotunity to make money and improve their standing, anyone who disagrees is got rid of, the investor in all of this is completely ignored but ends up paying for of it. The regulator only checks that the boxes have been ticked, so they wash their hands and walk away when it all goes **** up.


----------



## onemoretime (11 July 2019)

Themis said:



			A few faces may change but the overall pattern is unlikely to shift. A charity is being used to promote professional people and places. A gruesome equivalent would be if the Red Cross provided a register of private blood banks.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with this.  Nothing will change!


----------



## ViolettaTears (16 July 2019)

Hi Janet and friends. We heard tonight over dinner that the Chairman has been forced out early from his post. Talk of an interim chairman. Maybe bunkum and more Trump style propaganda, but has a sound of truth in it? Anyone  else heard anything?


----------



## ConnecticutYankee (16 July 2019)

Same dinner talk here. No doubt technically Chair was due to step down now so will be claimed this is not early. Will we see the return of LP?


----------



## ViolettaTears (17 July 2019)

So its true! The Ego has landed.   After his shocking behavior towards Lady Vesty at the meeting this doesn't bode well for the future and wouldn't we all have loved to have been a fly on the wall when they told David S, "Thanks Dave me old mate for the last couple of years, no need for you to hang around while we elect the permanent chairman, you can b@gger off now, we've got this".  This also means Mr Lord will decide who the new CEO is. Maybe an ex-RSPCA CEO, there's enough of them about after all.

*Tim Lord - Interim Chairman*





Tim has 35+ years of experience in brand marketing through to CEO roles in major companies, he also has experience of building brands, achieving focus and developing business strategies to achieve long term goals. He has worked in the voluntary sector and has experience of fundraising and lobbying.
Proprietor of a riding school and livery yard, Tim is aware of the business issues that affect the industry. For those issues that are not in the control of a business e.g. the recent changes in business rates, Tim would like to see the BHS as the body that represents the industry. During his time as a Trustee, Tim aims to promote the BHSâ€™s role and develop its proactivity in equestrian issues. 
Tim believes that having a clear focus on priorities is vital to improve the effectiveness of the organisation. With the BHS being a large organisation with numerous aspects and supporting strategies, he feels that it is important for the Society to have a clear view of what it wants to be and how to deliver that vision. With a strong strategic background, Tim will assist the Board in driving this forward. 
As a charity and member organisation, Tim would like to see the BHS add more value to its members and see this clearly set out in the strategy in a measurable way.


----------



## Velcrobum (17 July 2019)

Well I have already resigned my membership and gave a bullet point letter outlining why. If I get a response I will be very interested!! Who ousted David S and did it happen before the election results were known?? Still nowt on BHS website and I would have expected it to be published in "News".

ETA just found it in the Trustees section, interestingly earlier today that had not been updated!


----------



## JanetGeorge (17 July 2019)

Yes - DS has gone with a really smarmy song of praise from Tim Lord, who is now Interim Chairman for 2 months while they get sorted.  To quote from the e-mail sent out:

"
The election result was as follows:

BHS Specialist Trustee - Education: Sarah Simpson*
BHS Trustee - Sally McCarthy received 1467 votes
BHS Trustee - Tim Lord received 1225 votes
BHS Trustee - Fran Mason received 1143 votes
BHS Trustee - Anita Quigley received 1141 votes
BHS Trustee - Brenda Watson received 736 votes
*Only one candidate had progressed to the election, therefore in accordance with the British Horse Society Constitution, Sarah Simpson was elected as BHS Specialist Trustee, Education.
A total of 2373 individual members voted with each member having the choice to cast up to three votes."

So Sally McCarthy got the most votes and Fran Mason was hot on Tim Lord's heels.  Interesting that as Sally McCarthy didn't get past the Nominations' Committee last year (and the whys of that are ANYONE'S guess.)


----------



## Velcrobum (19 July 2019)

I am hearing on the grapevine that the small BHS Horsebox has been stolen!!! Anyone got any more information???


----------



## EventingMum (19 July 2019)

Just seen that it has been found, it was stolen from a hotel carpark.


----------



## ester (19 July 2019)

for some reason it took then a day and a half to mention on social media, by which time it had been found/was found straight after. It didn't go very far!


----------



## Tiddlypom (19 July 2019)

Itâ€™s all a bit weird, but then, thatâ€™s not a surprise, is it.




__ https://www.facebook.com/197704983342/posts/10157484475098343


----------



## ECB (22 July 2019)

It seems to me that the BHS is unusual, as charities go. If you think about what it says it does, the main thread of work could be described as defining a standard of practice, determining the curriculum and means of education/training, selling/delivering the education/training, controlling the qualifications and venues for delivery. Other â€œthreadsâ€ of work include influencing / taking some level of action in welfare, safety, and access, and influencing local, regional, national, and international  conditions & legislation. First observation, thatâ€™s a broad range. Second observation, since the work crosses the boundary from charity / unpaid volunteers to commercial / professionals, there are inherent conflicts of interest to be considered. Third observation, while the image is very strong, the BHS approach is not the "only way". Some would say it is still rooted and primarily shaped by the military / command and control paradigm.  

The BHS is a hybrid membership/charity/professional organisation. Perhaps this is like the â€œcharteredâ€ institutions, e.g. Institute of Chartered Surveyors or Accountants - I am not sure. I have heard that the concept of â€œcharteredâ€ institutions has been under review, like the case of the law society.

As the new Board members get their feet under the table and a permanent new Chair is selected, I hope that the unique challenges of the nature of the BHS are considered fully and that the need for transparency, two-way communication, and involvement in decision making are accepted. Without that acceptance and actions, increasing focus on the â€œbusinessâ€ and the â€œbrandâ€ are likely to exacerbate membersâ€™ concerns that the charity is being used as an engine to drive the growth of the professionals.


----------



## ViolettaTears (23 July 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Yes - DS has gone with a really smarmy song of praise from Tim Lord, who is now Interim Chairman for 2 months while they get sorted.  To quote from the e-mail sent out:

"
The election result was as follows:

BHS Specialist Trustee - Education: Sarah Simpson*
BHS Trustee - Sally McCarthy received 1467 votes
BHS Trustee - Tim Lord received 1225 votes
BHS Trustee - Fran Mason received 1143 votes
BHS Trustee - Anita Quigley received 1141 votes
BHS Trustee - Brenda Watson received 736 votes
*Only one candidate had progressed to the election, therefore in accordance with the British Horse Society Constitution, Sarah Simpson was elected as BHS Specialist Trustee, Education.
A total of 2373 individual members voted with each member having the choice to cast up to three votes."

So Sally McCarthy got the most votes and Fran Mason was hot on Tim Lord's heels.  Interesting that as Sally McCarthy didn't get past the Nominations' Committee last year (and the whys of that are ANYONE'S guess.)
		
Click to expand...


Hi Janet - We are hearing that there will be a delay in getting new CE as candidates are dropping out. The old CE got sacked, we mean, 'resigned', almost six months ago. Delay is yet another indication of lack of professional conduct and poor judgement of trustees. But another example is the overnight loss of the insurance company sponsored castration clinic horse box. If some sharp eyed member hadn't seen it, it would be half way across Europe by now, as no one had thought to put a tracker on it??? If it wasn't so tragic the BHS reminds my husband of a carry on film without the laughs


----------



## JanetGeorge (24 July 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			Hi Janet - We are hearing that there will be a delay in getting new CE as candidates are dropping out. The old CE got sacked, we mean, 'resigned', almost six months ago. Delay is yet another indication of lack of professional conduct and poor judgement of trustees. But another example is the overnight loss of the insurance company sponsored castration clinic horse box. If some sharp eyed member hadn't seen it, it would be half way across Europe by now, as no one had thought to put a tracker on it??? If it wasn't so tragic the BHS reminds my husband of a carry on film without the laughs
		
Click to expand...

lol, horse organisations seem to have trouble with CE's.  BEF's has just left and they SAY it's noting to do with the c**k-up over next year's Royal Windsor.  And the CE of BS was immediately appointed Interim CE though remains as CE of BS (hope he doesn't get both salaries, lol.)   I doubt candidates are dropping out over LP's 'resignation' (and I do think she resigned - DS wouldn't have the courage or desire to sack her.)  I hope it means they want to be SURE to get the right one - and NOT one of the internal candidates!

ETA - and apparently the lorry HAS been recovered - someone spotted it rather quickly.


----------



## ViolettaTears (29 July 2019)

Interesting to hear that one of the first things the new Prime Minister talked about in his opening speech was animal welfare. Apparently the new Chairman's bestie is Boris, so are we going to see a new dawn of the BHS actually doing something meaningful and horse-life-changing welfare actions like the plight of horses in riding schools outside of the BHS membership? Not going to hold our breath. Wonder if the new CE will do a Boris on the current Directors, ie move them on to new homes?


----------



## Velcrobum (30 July 2019)

Appointment of new CEO seems to have gone quiet. Maybe the interim chairman IS going to act   to sort out HQ.


----------



## onemoretime (30 July 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			Hi Janet - We are hearing that there will be a delay in getting new CE as candidates are dropping out. The old CE got sacked, we mean, 'resigned', almost six months ago. Delay is yet another indication of lack of professional conduct and poor judgement of trustees. But another example is the overnight loss of the insurance company sponsored castration clinic horse box. If some sharp eyed member hadn't seen it, it would be half way across Europe by now, as no one had thought to put a tracker on it??? If it wasn't so tragic the BHS reminds my husband of a carry on film without the laughs
		
Click to expand...

Agree with this, I will be amazed if there is much change in HO!


----------



## onemoretime (30 July 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			Interesting to hear that one of the first things the new Prime Minister talked about in his opening speech was animal welfare. Apparently the new Chairman's bestie is Boris, so are we going to see a new dawn of the BHS actually doing something meaningful and horse-life-changing welfare actions like the plight of horses in riding schools outside of the BHS membership? Not going to hold our breath. Wonder if the new CE will do a Boris on the current Directors, ie move them on to new homes?
		
Click to expand...

well I hope Boris does much for horses on the roads making it safer for riders.


----------



## ester (30 July 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			ETA - and apparently the lorry HAS been recovered - someone spotted it rather quickly.
		
Click to expand...

Quickly once they had put it on social media, it took what a day and half for them to mention it at all? It seemed a bit to me like they almost waited for it to be found before mentioning it.


----------



## ViolettaTears (8 August 2019)

Another BHS C*CK UP.  Tonight one Eleanor from the fundraising team has emailed ALL members congratulating them on registering as a Platinum Rider. Dear god, can't Head Office do anything right. If us volunteers made mistakes like this, we would be sacked. Correction, when some of our number did make an error like this we were sacked. Come on new Chairman hurry up and get the CEO started and hands on the reins please!


----------



## KittenInTheTree (8 August 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			Another BHS C*CK UP.  Tonight one Eleanor from the fundraising team has emailed ALL members congratulating them on registering as a Platinum Rider. Dear god, can't Head Office do anything right. If us volunteers made mistakes like this, we would be sacked. Correction, when some of our number did make an error like this we were sacked. Come on new Chairman hurry up and get the CEO started and hands on the reins please!
		
Click to expand...

I'm a member and have not received any such email. Not too sure how you'd even have access to this information anyhow.


----------



## milliepops (8 August 2019)

I'm NOT a member and received that email.


----------



## honetpot (9 August 2019)

KittenInTheTree said:



			I'm a member and have not received any such email. Not too sure how you'd even have access to this information anyhow.
		
Click to expand...

I got the email as well. I updated my details recently so i getting all sorts of stuff. I think the left hand doesnâ€™t know what the right hand is doing, someone needs to get a gripe.


----------



## Lexi_ (9 August 2019)

Oh I got that one today and wondered what Iâ€™d signed up for and totally forgotten about ðŸ˜‚  Reassuring to know my memory hasnâ€™t gone yet. Less reassuring that their data security is this poor...


----------



## GoldenWillow (9 August 2019)

Lexi_ said:



			Oh I got that one today and wondered what Iâ€™d signed up for and totally forgotten about ðŸ˜‚  Reassuring to know my memory hasnâ€™t gone yet. Less reassuring that their data security is this poor...
		
Click to expand...

This!


----------



## D66 (9 August 2019)

I got it too, and I resigned.


----------



## JanetGeorge (9 August 2019)

D66 said:



			I got it too, and I resigned.
		
Click to expand...

lol, I'm quite hurt I didn't get it - I resigned 4 years ago.  But someone who'd left 20 years ago got it.  The apologies started coming out after it appeared on the FB Group. One wonders if THEY reported their error to the ICO - they should have.  (As should anyone who has left and still got it - this is a GDPR breach, I think - the number is 0303 123 1113.


----------



## honetpot (9 August 2019)

If you read Data protection act, data has to be used for the purpose it was collected for.
I just want to know how my details got included on this list. I seem to be on everyoneâ€™s email list and I get alsorts sent which gets binned.
These emails are not free, they pay so much per 1000. If itâ€™s a genuine mistake, it should only happen once.
I want the BHS to do well and I hoped the past few months has been a wake up call.


----------



## Rowreach (9 August 2019)

As a non-member who got both emails, Iâ€™m uncomfortable with the misuse of data, but tbh it hasnâ€™t inconvenienced me or damaged me in any way, and encouraging loads of people to report them for it seems a bit petty really.


----------



## honetpot (9 August 2019)

It would seem petty if they hadnâ€™t fired volunteers for breaches that the ICO wasnâ€™t concerned about when told.
This has caused great upset when really it could have been handled in a far more positive way, and they have lost more volunteers because of it.


----------



## JanetGeorge (9 August 2019)

honetpot said:



			It would seem petty if they hadnâ€™t fired volunteers for breaches that the ICO wasnâ€™t concerned about when told.
This has caused great upset when really it could have been handled in a far more positive way, and they have lost more volunteers because of it.
		
Click to expand...


Thank you,honetpot.  I just wish the problems with BHS management were so petty they could be ignored.  But too much of what has been going on for quite a few years has been SO wrong - and they don't listen.  So yelling louder - and making sure that it's to people they HAVE to listen to - is about the only way to go (other than just forgetting the BHS used to be a GOOD charity.)


----------



## jofwigby (10 August 2019)

honetpot said:



			It would seem petty if they hadnâ€™t fired volunteers for breaches that the ICO wasnâ€™t concerned about when told.
This has caused great upset when really it could have been handled in a far more positive way, and they have lost more volunteers because of it.
		
Click to expand...

This ^


----------



## onemoretime (10 August 2019)

jofwigby said:



			This ^
		
Click to expand...

what rules had the voluteers breached?


----------



## Velcrobum (10 August 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			lol, I'm quite hurt I didn't get it - I resigned 4 years ago.  But someone who'd left 20 years ago got it.  The apologies started coming out after it appeared on the FB Group. One wonders if THEY reported their error to the ICO - they should have.  (As should anyone who has left and still got it - this is a GDPR breach, I think - the number is 0303 123 1113.
		
Click to expand...

 That is concerning that BHS has kept details of someone who left 20 years ago!!


----------



## Helensbridge (11 August 2019)

i only found this forum as was trying to google more about the BHS after hearing about the recruitment process for the new CEO sounds so unprofessional and disorgainsed the BHS should know better,  but i now see that there are many, many more issues and looks like the Charity is in a mess! Such a shame, was a great orgainsation in the past ....


----------



## honetpot (11 August 2019)

onemoretime said:



			what rules had the voluteers breached?
		
Click to expand...

As far as I am aware it was a diagram of the management structure of BHS HO, with peoples names on, which was already available somewhere else. A bit like if you worked in a school there would be a list of what teachers covered departments.
If they really thought it was a data breach it could have been handled internally not reported ICO.
I just think they want to control
Members volunteers by using GDPR as an excuse for not giving out information.
They are holding old data which they need to dispose of, and using data for purpose it was not collected for, so does that need reporting to the ICO?


----------



## JanetGeorge (11 August 2019)

honetpot said:



			They are holding old data which they need to dispose of, and using data for purpose it was not collected for, so does that need reporting to the ICO?
		
Click to expand...

Very definitely.  They SHOULD have reported the error (and rolled over and said sorry, lol.)  They probably have by now having had a lot of not very subtle hints.


----------



## Helensbridge (12 August 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Very definitely.  They SHOULD have reported the error (and rolled over and said sorry, lol.)  They probably have by now having had a lot of not very subtle hints.
		
Click to expand...

Looks like there are a lot of things the BHS SHOULD have done  - how can we have any faith in the BHS when they've made  (and continue to make) such big mistakes. After the vote of no confidence you would think the new Board would be tightening up and ensuring procedures are followed, not overlooking data protection issues and apparently abandoning the recruitment process for the ceo  .... it's a disgrace !


----------



## onemoretime (12 August 2019)

Helensbridge said:



			Looks like there are a lot of things the BHS SHOULD have done  - how can we have any faith in the BHS when they've made  (and continue to make) such big mistakes. After the vote of no confidence you would think the new Board would be tightening up and ensuring procedures are followed, not overlooking data protection issues and apparently abandoning the recruitment process for the ceo  .... it's a disgrace !
		
Click to expand...

The BHS are a law unto themselves!!


----------



## ViolettaTears (14 August 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Very definitely.  They SHOULD have reported the error (and rolled over and said sorry, lol.)  They probably have by now having had a lot of not very subtle hints.
		
Click to expand...

Hi Janet. We heard last night that the new Chairman has tried to put a stop to the recruitment process of the new CE as he doesn't like the candidates the old board and old Chairman chose. He wants his own man in there which is why there is such a ridiculous delay. Like we said before the Ego has clearly landed at Stoneleigh and what might be good for his personal career and aspirations of an OBE for services to charity may not be good for horses.


----------



## ECB (14 August 2019)

me 


milliepops said:



			I'm NOT a member and received that email.
		
Click to expand...

too


----------



## honetpot (14 August 2019)

To be fair he is a businessman , so perhaps he will look for someone who can actually to the job and not someone who has limited previous experience in managing a company but knows horses.
The whole fiasco with the use of old data so someone needs to take a firm grip.
When you have a look at our last CEO qualifications for running a company, well I fail to see the experience.


----------



## ECB (14 August 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			Hi Janet. We heard last night that the new Chairman has tried to put a stop to the recruitment process of the new CE as he doesn't like the candidates the old board and old Chairman chose. He wants his own man in there which is why there is such a ridiculous delay. Like we said before the Ego has clearly landed at Stoneleigh and what might be good for his personal career and aspirations of an OBE for services to charity may not be good for horses.
		
Click to expand...

EGOs/gong grabbers/honours hunters etc have ruled at HQ for years now. This isn't a true Charity - it's a business masquerading as a Charity to line the pockets of professionals. Just look at the background of the Board. Non-professionals are in the distinct minority.


----------



## Helensbridge (15 August 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			Hi Janet. We heard last night that the new Chairman has tried to put a stop to the recruitment process of the new CE as he doesn't like the candidates the old board and old Chairman chose. He wants his own man in there which is why there is such a ridiculous delay. Like we said before the Ego has clearly landed at Stoneleigh and what might be good for his personal career and aspirations of an OBE for services to charity may not be good for horses.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Helensbridge (15 August 2019)

Hello - this is true from what i understand. 
It was clearly laid out by the recruitment company that the process would consist of 2 rounds, a meeting with the Board and then the shortlisted candidates would go forward to a second round and be asked to give a presentation. The first round only included the old Board of Trustees due to the date of the elections. After the new interim Chair and Board members took their position they asked could they re-interview all the candidates so the entire Board would be in agreement of who should be shortlisted to proceed to round 2. Instead, after this second meeting which apparently was short  - the interim Chair informed the recruitment company that they were NOT going to proceed to a second round, therefore abandoning the set out procedure  ...... what is more worrying is that if the candidate is hired based on a chat that is NOT enough or good practice - for a role like a CEO, the candidates surely MUST be tested  - is this not the correct process for any recruitment for a senior manager position  - why hire a recruitment company spending significant amounts of charity money and then do your own thing, so unprofessional  - shame on the BHS!!!!


----------



## honetpot (16 August 2019)

It does seem rum, but i am trying to be positive.
The Chairman only has a casting vote, so others have to have voted with him.
The next CEO needs to concentrate on getting things sorted at HO, were did all the trouble seem to stem from?
The new Board only had a choice of two candidates, which the previous Board had chosen, perhaps they thought the candidates were not suitable or the presentation was not needed.
Some of us have complained that BHS has been run completely by the CEO and not by the Trust Board elected by us.
I trying to stay positive and hope they are looking wider than narrowing the candidate field, but that the new Board will be responsible for the choice, so we will know I hope which way the BHS is going and members can decide where they spend their money.


----------



## ECB (16 August 2019)

If true that they are NOT going to proceed to a second interview, what are the odds it will be an internal candidate? Pretty high I think


----------



## ECB (22 August 2019)

Attention Riding clubs- as part of the new regime, HQ has decided that all RC meetings will include 1 or 2 SMT members! More top down control. Time to vote with your feet and break away completely.


----------



## ViolettaTears (23 August 2019)

ECB said:



			If true that they are NOT going to proceed to a second interview, what are the odds it will be an internal candidate? Pretty high I think
		
Click to expand...

THE 12TH MARCH 2019 IS WHEN the former CE resigned (or was asked to leave/sign a confidentiality agreement/sacked) now the 23 AUGUST 2019 and it would have taken a month to negotiate her leaving, so we are now at SIX MONTHS down the line, with no direction or change in taking far more care and attention on horse, pony welfare.   Latest word in our neck of the woods is that its definitely going to Alex the Educationalist who has cosied up to the new Chair. If that happens, there is no hope at all for at least ten years. We are getting to the point of beyond caring very sadly.  Off to a couple of events over weekend so will see what we pick up from our friends.


----------



## Helensbridge (23 August 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			THE 12TH MARCH 2019 IS WHEN the former CE resigned (or was asked to leave/sign a confidentiality agreement/sacked) now the 23 AUGUST 2019 and it would have taken a month to negotiate her leaving, so we are now at SIX MONTHS down the line, with no direction or change in taking far more care and attention on horse, pony welfare.   Latest word in our neck of the woods is that its definitely going to Alex the Educationalist who has cosied up to the new Chair. If that happens, there is no hope at all for at least ten years. We are getting to the point of beyond caring very sadly.  Off to a couple of events over weekend so will see what we pick up from our friends.
		
Click to expand...

Would this guy Alex be a good CEO  - is he qualified ? You would have thought if they completed the recruit process weeks ago, why have they not announced the results, especailly if it is an internal staff member? The only obvious reasons could be that there is internal issues between the other staff and this guy doesn't have their support and they are causing waves OR the Board is not unanimous and since the Chair is presently only an interim perhaps they are waiting until they vote for the new Chair as ultimately they will be the person that will work wth the CEO ..... imagine if the Board isn't unanimous and Lord isnt voted Chair and the new Chair is a different Trustee and their top job was choosen not by them but a chap that was only voted on the Board 2 months ago and immediately became interim Chair and had the casting vote !!!! What a mess ....


----------



## JanetGeorge (24 August 2019)

honetpot said:



			Looking at the jobs he has done they have mainly been to do with providing training, with the mounted sections of police at home and abroad.He was also mentioned in the BHS employment tribunal case where he seems to have decided to investigate and involve himself in something were he was not the line manger.
		
Click to expand...

Nope - that's Alan Hiscox, Head of Safety (although he's probably trying for it too).  Gossip is that it is Alex Copeland, Director of Education.  He was at BEF from 2012 - don't know how long he lasted there.  https://bef.co.uk/News-Detail.aspx?news=bef-appoints-head-sport-development-12#  He ws at BHS by 2015.  No idea if he is 'qualfied' - his public appearances I've seen haven't impressed too much!


----------



## Helensbridge (24 August 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			That's Alan Hiscox - and you're right - he isn't 'qualified' in any regard for CEO.  But it's the Director of Education, Alex Copeland, who gossip says might get it (horrifying thought.)  He was at BEF in 2012 as 'Head of Sport Development' - but not sure how long he was there or why he jumped to BHS,  He doesn't appear to have ANY equestrian training (after all, you'd think BEF would mention - say - BHSI - if he had it.)  Neither of them have shown the ability to LEAD (rather than boss people around) - and from what I've seen of AC, he sure could do with some 'facing the camera' training.
		
Click to expand...

Hi Janet, if it is this guy Alex do you have any idea why they have delayed confirming the apointment ?


----------



## JanetGeorge (25 August 2019)

Helensbridge said:



			Hi Janet, if it is this guy Alex do you have any idea why they have delayed confirming the apointment ?
		
Click to expand...

I would suspect they don't want to 'announce' until they announce the new Chairman officially - so they can be photographed side by side showing what good mates they are - who knows.  I just hope the gossip is wrong and that it will be a CEO from the real world - and not ANY of the candidates from the SMT.


----------



## ViolettaTears (27 August 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			I would suspect they don't want to 'announce' until they announce the new Chairman officially - so they can be photographed side by side showing what good mates they are - who knows.  I just hope the gossip is wrong and that it will be a CEO from the real world - and not ANY of the candidates from the SMT.
		
Click to expand...


Hi Janet, from what we picked up this weekend, this is right and the latest excuse for another month of procrastination. Also we were very interested in the article in the Daily Mail this week about CE pay. Its worth noting that the CE of the National Trust, a huge dollar rich charity, that there CE gets only Â£10,000 more than the old CE of the BHS.  What would be good governance, when the announcement is FINALLY made, that the salary is announced too.  Worth reading this article.  No one should be paid more than Â£50,000 at HQ. Also the Chairman should forfeit his Â£7,000 a year salary as well.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...tive-paid-300-000-receives-134-000-boost.html​
Conservative MP David Davies said: 'It is extraordinary that charitable organisations and charity bosses are giving themselves bigger pay rises than some people receive in their annual salary.
'When we put money in a box for a good cause, it is without realising how much of the money is being used to fund the enormous, eye-watering pay rises for bosses of these organisations.'


----------



## ViolettaTears (5 September 2019)

Email just in.  So Tim is now our permanent chair, no great surprise there and good news that Sally is Vice. Not a whisper in the email about the new CE or what's happening, or progress being made, not even a mention. Good grief. The parallels with Brexit are too obvious. Off to Burleigh at the weekend, hearing that HQ has sunk a load of money into a brand new huge stand so we will be going to ask some 'awkward' questions about governance and the complete failure to appoint a CE even with a very expensive headhunting firm doing the donkey work.


----------



## Helensbridge (5 September 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			Email just in.  So Tim is now our permanent chair, no great surprise there and good news that Sally is Vice. Not a whisper in the email about the new CE or what's happening, or progress being made, not even a mention. Good grief. The parallels with Brexit are too obvious. Off to Burleigh at the weekend, hearing that HQ has sunk a load of money into a brand new huge stand so we will be going to ask some 'awkward' questions about governance and the complete failure to appoint a CE even with a very expensive headhunting firm doing the donkey work.
		
Click to expand...

I expect there will be an email in the next day or so - saying that this education guy is now CE since that is the common opinon on who has got it  - such a shame, they had a real chance to change the culture of how the BHS is managed, but  nope - they decided to go with someone who already is part of the problem .... have fun at Burghley !!! : )))


----------



## Tiddlypom (7 September 2019)

This is the BHS stand at Burghley 2019. I didnâ€™t call in this time. Henry the mechanical horse was there. I though that the subheading on the banner was interesting - the home of British Riding Clubs? Iâ€™m no longer a Riding Club member, so whatâ€™s in it for me?


----------



## JanetGeorge (8 September 2019)

Doesn't look like too many people wanted to visit!


----------



## ECB (10 September 2019)

Helensbridge said:



			I expect there will be an email in the next day or so - saying that this education guy is now CE since that is the common opinon on who has got it  - such a shame, they had a real chance to change the culture of how the BHS is managed, but  nope - they decided to go with someone who already is part of the problem .... have fun at Burghley !!! : )))
		
Click to expand...

The announcement of the Chair and his Vice confirm there will be no culture change. BHS operates, under the disguise of a charity, to funnel money to riding school owners and coaches/instructors. The two leadership positions confirm that. As for "welfare`', they may as well delete that as an object of the charity. No one on the Board and no one as head of dept. The Board looks like it will continue to ignore the majority of its members.


----------



## 3OldPonies (10 September 2019)

Awful though all of this is, it is probably no worse than what goes on in a lot of corporate situations, except that in the majority of cases it doesn't hit the chat forums or headlines unless really extreme or involving a pillar of the community.

I don't mean to belittle any of the people who have and are still involved by saying that.  It's just that I think this is all getting a bit out of hand now and vilifying the BHS continually isn't helping anyone move on, if anything it is increasing bitter and hard feelings.  Not only that but impacting on the good work that a lot of members and volunteers are carrying on with.


----------



## ECB (10 September 2019)

3OldPonies said:



			Awful though all of this is, it is probably no worse than what goes on in a lot of corporate situations, except that in the majority of cases it doesn't hit the chat forums or headlines unless really extreme or involving a pillar of the community.

I don't mean to belittle any of the people who have and are still involved by saying that.  It's just that I think this is all getting a bit out of hand now and vilifying the BHS continually isn't helping anyone move on, if anything it is increasing bitter and hard feelings.  Not only that but impacting on the good work that a lot of members and volunteers are carrying on with.
		
Click to expand...

You may be right. But I think that while the â€œnew handsâ€ take up the tiller and the Captain is yet to be on board, there is still an opportunity to correct the course of the BHS. A course that would respond to the needs of all horses and members.


----------



## JanetGeorge (10 September 2019)

ECB said:



			You may be right. But I think that while the â€œnew handsâ€ take up the tiller and the Captain is yet to be on board, there is still an opportunity to correct the course of the BHS. A course that would respond to the needs of all horses and members.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly!  I dread the 'wrong' CEO - but I sure don't think we can just run away with tails between our legs.  We HAVE to see real change for the better - and fast!


----------



## ECB (10 September 2019)

829 voted in favour of the motion of â€œno confidenceâ€.  That number of voices needs to be far greater to ensure change. Now is NOT the time to be quiet or patient- in my opinion.


----------



## EventingMum (10 September 2019)

ECB said:



			The announcement of the Chair and his Vice confirm there will be no culture change. BHS operates, under the disguise of a charity, to funnel money to riding school owners and coaches/instructors. The two leadership positions confirm tar an annual inspection and being listed as approved
hat. As for "welfare`', they may as well delete that as an object of the charity. No one on the Board and no one as head of dept. The Board looks like it will continue to ignore the majority of its members.
		
Click to expand...

I really don't see any evidence of money being funneled into riding schools or coaches. As the owner of an approved school we don't get much for our money bar an annual inspection and being listed as approved.  Our insurance insists we are approved.  As an APC we get access to courses etc but have to pay for them albeit at a small discount if you are registered.


----------



## ECB (10 September 2019)

EventingMum said:



			I really don't see any evidence of money being funneled into riding schools or coaches. As the owner of an approved school we don't get much for our money bar an annual inspection and being listed as approved.  Our insurance insists we are approved.  As an APC we get access to courses etc but have to pay for them albeit at a small discount if you are registered.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for your point of view. In response, in my opinion, unnecessary several factors work to obscure how money, primarily collected from members, is being used. First, there is a lack of transparency; information is very difficult to obtain especially timely information. While it may be legal, it is far from best practice. Second, there is a abject lack of consultation with regions and members. Decisions are predominantly made in HQ, without explicit / public rationales, and compliance is demanded. To return to your specific point, decisions for expenditure and investment are made in the name of marketing, intended to promote the brand, and thus are intended to have an effect to boost Riding Schools & APCs businesses. Is there any data that shows that these investments have paid off? The discount you receive is funded by members money. Is there evidence that the registration of riding schools, the courses, and the certification programmes etc "pay their own way"? It is no accident that the new Chair and Vice Chair share similar "employment". That is the vested interest the BHS seeks to maintain. In my opinion, it is the members who are really being conned and ripped off. Around Â£10 is the actual cost of the insurance policy a member receives! Members have no say in how their money is being used.


----------



## EventingMum (10 September 2019)

I personally, don't feel my business derives any benefit from being approved as my clients tend to come from word of mouth recommendations, not by people specifically looking for an approved centre. I suspect many demo/courses may run at a loss depending on the cost of hiring venues and people to present them but that may vary with the content and the area they are held in affecting how many people attend, they are generally open to everyone not just APCs (who also are members). Promoting approved centres and APCs probably serves more to promote the exam system than anything else as qualifications are prerequisites for approval and registration.


----------



## ECB (10 September 2019)

EventingMum said:



			I personally, don't feel my business derives any benefit from being approved as my clients tend to come from word of mouth recommendations, not by people specifically looking for an approved centre. I suspect many demo/courses may run at a loss depending on the cost of hiring venues and people to present them but that may vary with the content and the area they are held in affecting how many people attend, they are generally open to everyone not just APCs (who also are members). Promoting approved centres and APCs probably serves more to promote the exam system than anything else as qualifications are prerequisites for approval and registration.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply. It squares with what I have heard from others. I agree that it is the exam system that is being promoted and the development of that system has been a major long term investment. However, from what I understand, that investment in the exam system has not paid off as the UKCC system has overtaken the BHS offering in the market place. Selling the exam system outside the UK has become a priority - eg. China and Middle East etc.


----------



## teapot (10 September 2019)

ECB said:



			Thanks for your reply. It squares with what I have heard from others. I agree that it is the exam system that is being promoted and the development of that system has been a major long term investment. However, from what I understand, that investment in the exam system has not paid off as the UKCC system has overtaken the BHS offering in the market place. Selling the exam system outside the UK has become a priority - eg. China and Middle East etc.
		
Click to expand...

UKCC has died a death since the new exams pathway came in.


----------



## ECB (10 September 2019)

teapot said:



			UKCC has died a death since the new exams pathway came in.
		
Click to expand...

And the evidence is what?


----------



## ECB (11 September 2019)

teapot said:



			UKCC has died a death since the new exams pathway came in.
		
Click to expand...

I think you know "teapot" that UKCC did not die per se; it is now 1st4 sport. BHS exam system has been and is running at a loss & has unfilled places. They are selling it in China etc in an attempt to boost its image & value. The insurance, which was why most people "joined" has also been overtaken in the marketplace, by many but most notably by Harry Hall (as PC people know) and World Horse Welfare. At least with World Horse Welfare you get clear information about where your money goes and they do DO welfare!


----------



## ECB (11 September 2019)

I 


EventingMum said:



			I personally, don't feel my business derives any benefit from being approved as my clients tend to come from word of mouth recommendations, not by people specifically looking for an approved centre. I suspect many demo/courses may run at a loss depending on the cost of hiring venues and people to present them but that may vary with the content and the area they are held in affecting how many people attend, they are generally open to everyone not just APCs (who also are members). Promoting approved centres and APCs probably serves more to promote the exam system than anything else as qualifications are prerequisites for approval and registration.
		
Click to expand...

am curious about your insurance requiring approval. Does it specify from BHS?


----------



## EventingMum (11 September 2019)

ECB said:



			I

am curious about your insurance requiring approval. Does it specify from BHS?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm insured with NFU and they stated we have to be BHS approved.


----------



## Velcrobum (11 September 2019)

ECB said:



			Thanks for your reply. It squares with what I have heard from others. I agree that it is the exam system that is being promoted and the development of that system has been a major long term investment. However, from what I understand, that investment in the exam system has not paid off as the UKCC system has overtaken the BHS offering in the market place. Selling the exam system outside the UK has become a priority - eg. China and Middle East etc.
		
Click to expand...

I have been told by a Fellow of BHS that the China gravy train is running at a significant loss.


----------



## Helensbridge (15 September 2019)

Hi - been away, was wondering has the CEO been announced as i can't see it anywhere ?


----------



## ViolettaTears (15 September 2019)

Helensbridge said:



			Hi - been away, was wondering has the CEO been announced as i can't see it anywhere ?
		
Click to expand...

Hi there, the answer is a resounding 'no', and there are two current schools of thought which are that either Tim the Chair has put a halt on things as he didn't like the short list that David the prior chair put together and has started all over again with the same headhunting firm as they are on a basic retainer which means they get paid if and when someone is offered and accepts the job. The headhunters are friends of the former treasurer apparently. Or the other rumour is that Alex the Educationalist might get it as he and Tim are great mates but apparently he and a couple of other internal candidates went for it and if one of them gets it the others will resign. Complete Brexit Dogs Dinner


----------



## onemoretime (15 September 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			Hi there, the answer is a resounding 'no', and there are two current schools of thought which are that either Tim the Chair has put a halt on things as he didn't like the short list that David the prior chair put together and has started all over again with the same headhunting firm as they are on a basic retainer which means they get paid if and when someone is offered and accepts the job. The headhunters are friends of the former treasurer apparently. Or the other rumour is that Alex the Educationalist might get it as he and Tim are great mates but apparently he and a couple of other internal candidates went for it and if one of them gets it the others will resign. Complete Brexit Dogs Dinner
		
Click to expand...

Oh what a tangled web we weave!!


----------



## Velcrobum (15 September 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			Hi there, the answer is a resounding 'no', and there are two current schools of thought which are that either Tim the Chair has put a halt on things as he didn't like the short list that David the prior chair put together and has started all over again with the same headhunting firm as they are on a basic retainer which means they get paid if and when someone is offered and accepts the job. The headhunters are friends of the former treasurer apparently. Or the other rumour is that Alex the Educationalist might get it as he and Tim are great mates but apparently he and a couple of other internal candidates went for it and if one of them gets it the others will resign. Complete Brexit Dogs Dinner
		
Click to expand...

My cynical side says well that would get rid of some of the Senior Management but my tolerant side says but what if the ones threatening to resign are actually good ones.............


----------



## JanetGeorge (16 September 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			My cynical side says well that would get rid of some of the Senior Management but my tolerant side says but what if the ones threatening to resign are actually good ones.............
		
Click to expand...

And how unlikely is that.  If any were good - and had the moral fibre to stand up and speak against the ex CEO, they would have already been sacked


----------



## Helensbridge (17 September 2019)

Oh my goodness ... what a mess, as a Charity with members are they not supposed to inform us about what is going on - even an update ? I see there is a Members meeting in Liverpool tonight - I wonder if anyone will ask what is going on ???


----------



## JanetGeorge (30 September 2019)

ViolettaTears said:



			Big rumours going round that the new CE will be announced this coming week or next. He's external and not Alex the Educationalist, so a lot of staff, volunteers and no doubt directors will be bucked up when that news is announced. The new CE is a mate of the Chairmans, which is why there's been such a huge delay, eight months now and Tim had to get the rest of the board to agree to taking on his man. Assuming the new CE has read all the comments on this forum and the Daily Telegraph we are kind of thinking he must be a supreme optimist or believe the tripe being pushed around that it's only a small handful of fed up ex staff that are moaning. Either way he is in for a humangous shock when he gets his feet under the big desk at Stoneleigh. His two first actions must be to, read all the old documents and reports he can get his hands on to see how the same problems keep rearing their ugly heads because no one is dealing with them. Then let the Personnel Director go off to pastures new, pronto. In our opinion listening to all we've been told she is not trusted by anyone including her own team and is stopping The BHS moving forward.
		
Click to expand...

If he's a friend of the Chairman, he might be a marketing man - that could be good if he also has a clue about good PR and C O M M U N I C A T I O N!!  I can't see that the successful candidate SHOULD have a problem - because he HAS to know what it is.  He needs to get the TEAM working WITH him - and anyone who wants to fly solo, should fly out the door.  All we can do for now is keep fingers crossed!  If he's smart, his first PR will admit to the number of members lost in the past year or two - and state how he intends to reverse that situation.  Then deliver!


----------



## Tiddlypom (2 October 2019)

The new CEO has been named, I received the following email just now.

_Dear Member, 

I am writing to you, ahead of a general announcement being made later today, to confirm the appointment of the new Chief Executive Officer of The British Horse Society.

James Hick will join the Society on Monday 2nd December 2019 bringing with him a wealth of experience and proven success in leading a multi-faceted organisation.  James is currently the Managing Director for ManpowerGroup Enterprise, UK and Ireland, and has worked for the ManpowerGroup since 1993.

James has been a member of The BHS for over 10 years and he breeds and shows Shire horses in his spare time so is involved with and knows the equestrian community very well.

I, along with my fellow Trustees, am delighted that James will be leading the Society through the next phase of our strategic plan. As we get close to James joining us officially, we will share more news about him and plans for his introduction to our amazing Charity.

Please look out for a brief feature on James in the next issue of British Horse magazine, due at the end of November.

Thank you for your continued support of The British Horse Society. We couldnâ€™t do all the great work we do without you.


Tim Lord

Chairman of the Board of Trustees_


----------



## ViolettaTears (2 October 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			The new CEO has been named, I received this email just now.

Dear Member, 

I am writing to you, ahead of a general announcement being made later today, to confirm the appointment of the new Chief Executive Officer of The British Horse Society.

James Hick will join the Society on Monday 2nd December 2019 bringing with him a wealth of experience and proven success in leading a multi-faceted organisation.  James is currently the Managing Director for ManpowerGroup Enterprise, UK and Ireland, and has worked for the ManpowerGroup since 1993.

James has been a member of The BHS for over 10 years and he breeds and shows Shire horses in his spare time so is involved with and knows the equestrian community very well.

I, along with my fellow Trustees, am delighted that James will be leading the Society through the next phase of our strategic plan. As we get close to James joining us officially, we will share more news about him and plans for his introduction to our amazing Charity.

Please look out for a brief feature on James in the next issue of British Horse magazine, due at the end of November.

Thank you for your continued support of The British Horse Society. We couldnâ€™t do all the great work we do without you.


Tim Lord

Chairman of the Board of Trustees
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Velcrobum (2 October 2019)

How does one find out who all the senior management "directors" are? I have trawled the BHS website and have not found them yet. I could of course be being stupid!!


----------

