# Warm blood - what does it actually mean??



## Starbucks (17 October 2007)

Forgive me if Im being dim, but what is the actual definition of a Warm Blood??  Obviously there are specific breads like Hanoverian etc. but then others are just a Belgium WB for example.  Are they a bit like the ISH is for Ireland, but for European countries?  If so does this make any non TB, non draught horse from Europe a WB?  

Im just wondering why they are so trendy at the moment, people talk as if they are ALL stunning looking, huge dressage horse types.  Please correct me if Ive lost the plot!


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## alicedove (17 October 2007)

I have heard a theory that should you cross a hot blood (arab/TB) with a cold blood  (cob/draught)  this makes a warm blood, whatever the country of origin.

Some people would refute that. They have their breed spec don't they...

I had a dutch warm blood, yes he was gorgeous to look at, but had no heart, wouldn't give and always had a nap in him.

Now we have an ISH, which is purely a TB/hairy  I reckon to be honest that is an Irish warmblood but the blood lines are short compared with the belgian, dutch, etc out there.


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## jumpthemoon (17 October 2007)

Apparently, this is a good definition.... 

"A Warmblood is a horse with at least 5 generations of recognised sport horse bloodlines and that has been inspected and registered by world-recognised breeding associations to excel in the sports of dressage and/or show jumping"


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## jumpthemoon (17 October 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I have heard a theory that should you cross a hot blood (arab/TB) with a cold blood  (cob/draught)  this makes a warm blood, whatever the country of origin.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's the old fashioned meaning of the word - it's not really relevant today


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## alicedove (17 October 2007)

I seee,  thnks jumpthemoon. x   also that was a good definition, 5 generations...


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## _jetset_ (17 October 2007)

So what would you class Dizzy as?

Grace's Pedigree 
But it is missing the fact her grand dam was KWPN Premier mare.


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## Starbucks (17 October 2007)

Arr right, I see. Thanks!  So what do we call horses with 4 generations of recognised sport horse bloodlines?  Or just a regular horse from Holland for example?


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## alicedove (17 October 2007)

Surely then a regular horse from Holland would either have its own papers specifying it, or no breeding therefore not a recognised breed.

4 generations, not there yet! Just a sport horse type?


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## alicedove (17 October 2007)

Well Grace (Dizzy) would be a warmblood/TB cross to me


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## jumpthemoon (17 October 2007)

Hell knows! I don't know how rigid the definition is in that respect. Regular horse from Holland - I s'pose it depends on it's breeding. Hanoverian is a breed, but from that definition it looks as though all Hanoverians are not necessarily WB's ......God this is confusing! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I suppose you'd just call it a Hanoverian. WB isn't a breed, so to speak, it's more a 'stamp' or a 'type', I think...


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## _jetset_ (17 October 2007)

It is so confusing isn't it... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I would say she is WBxTB but then someone I know said they would just call her a WB because all WBs have TB breeding.


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## Starbucks (17 October 2007)

OK, one last question!  If say mummy was a Dutch WB and daddy was a Belgium WB, they had a baby in England  would the baby then be a British WB?


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## jumpthemoon (17 October 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
It is so confusing isn't it... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I would say she is WBxTB but then someone I know said they would just call her a WB because all WBs have TB breeding. 

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I think if she's registered with a WB society, she's a WB. If not, she would be whatever breed it says on her passport, ie Trakhener/Hanoverian etc x TB.


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## jumpthemoon (17 October 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is so confusing isn't it... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I would say she is WBxTB but then someone I know said they would just call her a WB because all WBs have TB breeding. 

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I think if she's registered with a WB society, she's a WB. If not, she would be whatever breed it says on her passport, ie Trakhener/Hanoverian etc x TB. 

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Sorry - just looked at her pedigree - KWPN is a WB studbook, so she's WB.


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## _jetset_ (17 October 2007)

Ah, but that happened due to her dad being KWPN, she is not actually registered but couldn't change it


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## _jetset_ (17 October 2007)

Think I have changed it now


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## jumpthemoon (17 October 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
OK, one last question!  If say mummy was a Dutch WB and daddy was a Belgium WB, they had a baby in England  would the baby then be a British WB? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure on this one. I would imagine though, that the Stallion would have to be graded in the UK,registered with the BWBS, as would the mare, for it to be British. I don't really know the ins and outs. All sounds a bit complicated though! It would depend on who you could register the horse with, I suppose.


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## trundle (17 October 2007)

I am getting an education from this thread. I always thought that "warmblood" was like "cob"  - a type rather than an actual breed. Horses like Hanovarians or Trakeners or registered with KWPN-type studbooks simply fall into the "warmblood type". 

You learn something new every day. i do, anyway.


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## _jetset_ (17 October 2007)

I also thought that trundle... Like an ISH which is a type as opposed to a breed


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## ESH_Jess (17 October 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
OK, one last question!  If say mummy was a Dutch WB and daddy was a Belgium WB, they had a baby in England  would the baby then be a British WB? 

[/ QUOTE ]

just to make it more complicated.....it would be whatver you registered it as!!!! ie.  we have an oldenburg colt born in uk who is out of a hannoverian mare born in germany (who was accepted into the oldenburg studbook to enable us to register it oldenburg) by a oldenburg stallion in germany.  
basically alot of the european societies will accept foals with parents from other studbooks either on breeding, performance results, performance test, licensing etc, with the exception to the hannoverian society who are quite a bit more fussy about the parentage being branded hann (although there are exceptions to this!). you have to have the mare accepted into the studbook of the society the foal is going to be registered with 
we have a foal who could be registered kwpn, oldenburg (ol or os), british warmblood, probably zangersheide etc!!!! born in uk by a german stallion out of a kwpn mare born in holland.  also most wb stallions are licenced with several societies so their offspring then have a choice of several societies to be registed with.
hope that make some sense and isn't a complete garbled mess!!


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## trundle (17 October 2007)

Well, thank you for that ESHjess, now my brain is completely fried   
	
	
		
		
	


	




! If WB stallions can be licenced with multiple socities, doesn't that then imply that WB IS a type rather than a breed? Thats why the Hanoverian people are more picky, presuambly, because Hanovarian IS a breed.

I think I'm getting myself into a sticky situation because i really don't know a  lot about this stuff (in fact, nothing) but its fascinating. 

I like Oldenburgs, they are very impressive-looking horses....


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## alicedove (17 October 2007)

To get them registered all you need to do is sort it out with the breed society, for exmaple there are many TBs out there who have been given WB status.

I believe there is an English Warmblood society is there not?  So that horse, BB2 (with WB paretns from other countries) wherever it is foaled, can be registered at what ever you like, providing it meets all the criteria in the examination, trot up, etc on the day of assessment. So it could be a british warmblood.

Really though, WB is a type, like cob, TB, etc I would label a horse in my mind as a warmblood type, regardless of papers, etc. Then for selling, breeding etc, you have to go a step further to say "pink papered" or "KWPN" or "Belgian Warmblood" etc.


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## Halfpass (17 October 2007)

This is really interesting and I am (trying) learning lots. I have always considered my horse to be a warmblood. She is a Selle Francais and some say that this is a french TB so therefore would she be classed as a hot blood?
As far as I know a selle francais is a french trotter x french tb so therefore could be classed as a warmblood.
Just to confuse it more her sire is  a registered Selle Francais but her dam isn't and her passport is an Oldenburgh (?sp?) one.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




So what does this then make her and is she eligable to be registered as a Selle Francais?


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## ESH_Jess (17 October 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
This is really interesting and I am (trying) learning lots. I have always considered my horse to be a warmblood. She is a Selle Francais and some say that this is a french TB so therefore would she be classed as a hot blood?
As far as I know a selle francais is a french trotter x french tb so therefore could be classed as a warmblood.
Just to confuse it more her sire is  a registered Selle Francais but her dam isn't and her passport is an Oldenburgh (?sp?) one.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




So what does this then make her and is she eligable to be registered as a Selle Francais? 

[/ QUOTE ]

what is she branded?


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## Anastasia (17 October 2007)

Warmbloods are a group of sport horse breeds and the term simply distinguishes this type of horse from the "cold bloods" (draft horses) and the "hot bloods" (Thoroughbreds and Arabians). Sport horse refers to the intended use of these breeds -- as a competitive and recreational horse for the major international equestrian disciplines of dressage, show jumping, eventing and combined driving.

Most warmblood breeds are continuing to evolve. In fact, they are not "breeds" in the sense that Thoroughbreds, Arabians, Morgans and American Saddlebreds are breeds. Except for the Trakehner, they do not have closed stud books. Other breeds are often introduced to the gene pool to reap the benefits of hybrid vigor, and to speed and improve the evolutionary process of attaining the "Breeding Goal" of the particular studbook.

The warmbloods are named for the countries and regions from which they were bred and where the studbooks are kept. The original warmbloods were bred to be an all purpose agricultural, riding, carriage, and cavalry horse. In the twentieth century, the European breeders began refining their horses to produce a large framed, correct horse with superior movement and a willing temperament. The main difference in the breeding of warmbloods is the rigorous documentation, selection and testing for breeding stock. There is mandatory performance testing for all stock with the emphasis placed on temperament and rideability. Although the warmbloods can be all around horses, they excel in dressage and show jumping.


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## TarrSteps (17 October 2007)

Anastasia has got it covered. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Just to add, it's only very recently that these books were not completely regional (a horse was registered in the region in which it was born, regardless of where its parents came from or in which book(s) they were registered) but the modern industry, especially AI and the ease of shipping, has changed the playing fleld and made the various stud books far more "globally oriented".  After all, more horses and members means more money for the stud book.

Horses can technically only be REGISTERED - awarded a birth certificate - from one book.  However breeding animals can APPROVED for breeding with other books, which means their offspring can be registered in whatever book they might be eligible for.  So if a Hannovarian registered mare gets KWPN approval and has a foal by a KWPN approved stallion the foal is eligible KWPN (it could get "half bred" papers from the Hann. but these don't really count for anything and the horse would still need to be inspected to breed).  Different books require different kinds of inspections but many have parity if their aims and standards are basically the same.

Even when the main purpose was to produce horses for the cavalry different regions had different aims and desired types, depending on what was available to them and what the organisation deemed appropriate.  As sport has taken over as the primary aim for breeding many books have developed a direction towards a specific discipline or type of horse, say Holsteiners and French horses being bred primarily to jump.  Up to a point they all want a "general athlete" but beyond that many books had quite specific aims which is why people see their products as being more targeted.  In truth most books now see the need for diversification and have actively sought out lines from other books which fill in their production gaps.  Often this results from the particular interests of a group of breeders and a desire to fill what is perceived as a national market niche.

Most books do allow inspected and approved (with a performance test) TB blood, usually in the form of actively sought out stallions, although some mares do get inpsected in too.  The Trakehners have a "semi-closed" book which still allows some Arab and TB influence.  Horses of unknown ancestry are not allowed in the closed books for the simple reason that their genetic makeup cannot be guaranteed.

The warmblood books are big, often state supported, organisations which have been in existence for literally over a century in some cases and were preceded by amalgamations of other, more regional, breeding organisations.  There is a great deal to be gained by registering horses and adhering to breed standards on the Continent so you tend to see fewer "just horses", although they certainly exist.  Different books have different regulations regarding inspection, naming of foals, etc.  

The most useful thing about the big books is the tons and tons of information collected and available.  Different lines produce "specialities" and an astutue breeder can use that information to drastically narrow the chances of getting a certain type of horse.  Information about temperament, jumping style, competition stats, very specific "improvement" or "dominance" information (for instance, a stallion may consistently improve on his mares' walks etc.) is all available.  And the horses are "custom bred" for sport and culled to standard.  THAT'S why those books are so dominant in sport now.  It's like buying trainers - we now have all sorts of "sport specific" options which become more important the higher up in competition one goes.  That said, we're still talking in generalisations and obviously there is no guarantee in horses - by using known quantities one is only hedging one's bets for success.

I don't know enough about the ISH to judge but I believe they are a little more "type based" and still based more on area of origin.  Different countries have different laws regarding registration of livestock which can affect the options a bit.  I do know that RIDs bred outside of Ireland are eligible for registry if they are of fully registered parents though so they must have some sort of closed book.

So basically registration is like human birth certificates.  What you're born as is what you "are" regardless of where you live or any other nationalities you aquire.  Approval is more like a passport - if you're eligible you can apply for one from other than where you were born but you will have to pass certain tests to aquire it.  Then your kids have options (depending on the laws) depending on where they are born and which countries "approve" their parents.  

I know it seems a bit confusing but the important thing is to not think "breed" as in dogs, but more general type and suitability for a job.


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## Doublethyme (17 October 2007)

Warmblood = definition : one of the best marketing ploys to ever hit the horse world.....!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Real definition = Heinz 57.....!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





and yes I do have one (well half a one going on the definitions on this thread, as she is half TB)


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## joy (17 October 2007)

Anastasia and Cruiser are spot on.  The European warmblood 'types' now are so diverse from their origin as to be almost unrecognisable, due in part to use of Thoroughbreds.  Which was subsequently stopped due to the predominance of (undesirable) TB traits.  Furioso is the most dominant TB in jumping bloodlines.
To compare the evolution of the modern warmblood look out some SJ books on International SJ from the 1950's to the 1970's and you will see what I mean.  The Trekhener is still pretty pure and pre 1939 was the old East Prussian Horse. These animals would have been wiped out following WW2 had not the Americans taken them ahead of the Russian advance because the starving Russkies would have eaten them.
History lesson over for today play time children.


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## rabatsa (17 October 2007)

So what is my unregistered mare whose sire is an unregistered CB x arab and dam is an unregistered TB x ID?  Ok I know  mongrel springs to mind but she oozes quality.


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## lucemoose (17 October 2007)

So what would my TB x WB (Holsteiner) be? HE was bred in Ireland and is in the Irish Horse Register, but frankly, Id prefer him to be registered with a breed society, be that the non TB part of weatherbys, Holsteiner, or the ISH society...greedy I know!!


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## Halfpass (18 October 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is really interesting and I am (trying) learning lots. I have always considered my horse to be a warmblood. She is a Selle Francais and some say that this is a french TB so therefore would she be classed as a hot blood?
As far as I know a selle francais is a french trotter x french tb so therefore could be classed as a warmblood.
Just to confuse it more her sire is  a registered Selle Francais but her dam isn't and her passport is an Oldenburgh (?sp?) one.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




So what does this then make her and is she eligable to be registered as a Selle Francais? 

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what is she branded? 

[/ QUOTE ]

She isn't branded


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## Krysha_n_Helga (18 October 2007)

what would you call helga? a warmblood
she is hanoverian x dutch warmblood.  i call her a warmblood and i think its right.


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## joy (18 October 2007)

Well done Doublethyme, I agree one of the most successful marketing ploys and one which I haven't bought into in so far as my dressage horse is WC x Hann (unregistered, he was an accident and to me carthorse x carthorse= carthorse) but I bought him to stop him from going for meat with the intention of selling him as a dressage 'goer' as in his movement he is quite freakish and he is now at Medium level but with someone else because I don't like riding him on the flat, however his honesty and scope for SJ is outstanding but he is a better dressage horse


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