# Lies and Monty Roberts?



## FREESTYLER (20 February 2007)

Ok, I went to see Monty Roberts at Patchetts.  I know his methods, read his book, my one horse even went to Richard Maxwell in 2000 so the theory I know and understand.  BUT I am just curious about the book that I saw on the internet Lies and Monty Roberts 
	
	
		
		
	


	




, and the apparent law suits against him? 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 What is true and what is not? I know curiosity killed the cat but.. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.... any views??!!


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## kayleigh_and_rocky (20 February 2007)

In my eyes its all conspiracy theories, theres always gonna be people who want to prove things wrong because they dont want to accept it.


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## FREESTYLER (20 February 2007)

Well, I thought that but when you start to read some of the book (available on line) it makes you wonder?  Are they jealous of his success or are they really telling the truth?


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## brightmount (20 February 2007)

I haven't heard of that book so can't comment, but I have been to two of his demos, and the horses he works with are unknown to him - they belong to local people with problem horses, so the dramatic results aren't a set-up.

Also, his profits go to his charitable interests to promote natural horsemanship, not into his pocket, so it's not about the money.


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## kayleigh_and_rocky (20 February 2007)

Books like that will always be convincing, conspiracy theorists always are, but i never believe it, i see them as good playwrites and thats about it.  I only ever judge things from my own experience and from my own experience of Monty Roberts i can safely say he is who he says he is and does what he says he does - and markets it well.


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## FREESTYLER (20 February 2007)

This is just an extract of some of the info... (long winded I know!!) (Reprinted from the Sunday Times of London) 
February 13 2000 by - Nicholas Hellen, Media Editor 

HE is known as the real horse whisperer, the cowboy who inspired the gentle hero in Robert Redford's film - but now Monty Roberts is being denounced as a fantasist. 

The publishers of his autobiography, The Man Who Listens to Horses, are under pressure to withdraw his account of his remarkable gift after the best-selling book was criticised as a "made-up" story. 

Joyce Renebome, who spent much of her childhood with him on his father's ranch in Salinas, California, is lobbying Random House, the publisher, to withdraw his book or reissue it as fiction. Although she is his aunt, she is, at 65, just six months older than him. 

This weekend she said she was performing a public service with her campaign, which has been taken up both by a horse owner upset by his treatment of their animal and Citizens for Justice, a lobbying group. 

In the book Roberts claims he suffered regular beatings at the hands of his late father, Marvin - once with a 4ft chain. He also described a childhood incident in which he saw his father, then a policeman, disarm a man wielding a knife in a bar fight. The eight-year-old boy's pride turned to horror when he saw his father beat the man, then haul him to the police station, where he died. He decided to escape from his father. 

Renebome says she is no longer prepared to put up with the "smearing" of the memory of Roberts's father. She was driven to demand withdrawal of his book because her counterblast, a privately published book titled Horse Whispers and Lies, had failed to deter him. 

"Monty depicts his father as cruel to him and to horses," she said. "It was so false and has been repeated by so many people that it has evoked strong passions in Salinas. 

"His brother, Larry, told me Monty rang him to ask him what it would take for me and other critics to back off. Larry said, 'Just tell the truth.' " 

Larry has already questioned Roberts's account of his "close friendship" with James Dean, star of the film East of Eden, which was made in Salinas and released in 1955. He claimed that he was the first person to be called by Dean's mechanic with the news of the actor's death in a car crash and said: "It was a freezing experience." 

According to Larry, the story is totally untrue: "Monty had a small part as an extra in East of Eden but there were 300 or 400 Salinas kids in that movie. I guess he met him, but there was no friendship." 

In his book, Roberts said he learned his techniques by studying the herds of horses that ran wild in the Nevada desert. As a teenager, he worked out the secret signals they used to communicate with each other and realised he could tame horses with a gentle touch, rather than the brutal technique of breaking their spirit. 

He wrote: "By copying the horse's language with my body, I discovered that eventually any horse would want to be with me of its own choice." He evolved a horse language, Equus, and could communicate with the animals through 170 signals. 

Roberts now runs a ranch which employs "horse whispering", but it has come under attack from a disgruntled client, who claims she was left partly disabled when her mustang trampled her shortly after it returned from several months' treatment at Roberts's ranch and promises of having been totally reconditioned. 

"I read the book and believed it all - that is why I entrusted our horse to him," she said. 

Her fiance said: "I see the pain and suffering caused to her and I am going to be on his back for the rest of his life." 

Even Roberts's reputation as the real inspiration for Redford's 1998 film The Horse Whisperer is in question. Nicholas Evans, who wrote the screenplay and the novel on which it was based, said yesterday: "Contrary to what Roberts has claimed, he was not the model for the main character in my book. There were several astonishing horsemen who I met in America who were in one way or another the model. 

"I've never seen Monty Roberts working with a horse, never been to one of his clinics, although he has claimed that I have. He seems to have some difficulty in distinguishing fact from fiction." 

But he said that Roberts's rise to stardom had done some good: "The interest that has been generated in working in a gentler way with horses has been of great benefit to horses all over the world."


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## FREESTYLER (20 February 2007)

Kayleigh, I am sure you are right, but probably because I saw some people talk about conspiracy last night on TV about 7/11 in USA.. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




. kinda got me thinking ummmm???   
	
	
		
		
	


	




I applaud his work and my sister works by his system for human interactions within the workforce but  I have to question things.....maybe my brain needed a bit of exercise!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Why do they conspire against him? There is apparently proof, family members saying the beatings he purportedly got were fantasy, made up.... now if I was his father I would not like that to be said against me.. having said that he is dead now and cannot fight his corner. Why does Monty use this story at the beginning of every session?  Is it to suggest that he understands about the mistreating of horses because it happened to him?


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## cosmo_sam (20 February 2007)

I personally think that if any of wrote our autobiography and happened to describe an individual in a bad light there would be people who would take offence.  Being as famous as MR then the fight it bound to be more venomous.

I also think that putting things into words can always slightly exagerate an issue.

I know personally if I wrote auto, then my father's family would most certainly fight tooth and nail (were I high profile enough for them to bother) against it.

Personally I know that IH methods have opened my eyes to a better way of beign with my horse and they are based in Monty's teachings.

I don't follow them completely, I ride with whips and spurs and I also believe in the use of voice to train, but they have offered me a route to handling that has made my and my horse's life easier. 

Don't get drawn into these debates, and just take from things what you need


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## Tia (20 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
7/11 in USA  

[/ QUOTE ] 

The shop?

 [ QUOTE ]
Why do they conspire against him?  

[/ QUOTE ] 

Sounds like sour grapes to me.


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## magic104 (20 February 2007)

I am on the fence here.  I have seen him at Keyso a few years ago.  I also know someone who took her mare which was used in the demo.  He refused to listen to her &amp; it was not a sucess.  What I would question is he has been around for a long time, why have they only just decided to come out with all this?  I already new that the film was not based on him, but as for everything else, I wonder why his family have never disputed his claims before now?


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## FREESTYLER (20 February 2007)

Apparently they did once the book came out... there has been law suits against him since about 1998?   I do think it is sourgrapes but I have to question these things .. I work in a lawyers firm and we question all the time to try and get the real truth!!


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## Toby_Zaphod (20 February 2007)

I do know that when either Roberts or Marks arrange a show the horses to be used in the show are stringently checked out before they are accepted. Numerous are turned down. Invariably these 'First meetings' in the ring are not the first meeting at all.

I saw Marks load a reluctant horse into a trailer at one demo. After her using her halter on him to do this I looked at the horse. He had a huge divot in his nose where the halter had pressed in with tremendous force. It may look alot gentler to use the halter rather that a lunge line around the rear end or lunge whip but in truth the injury to the horses nose was not nice at all.

Just saying what I saw.


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## spaniel (20 February 2007)

Magic, these gripes and sour grapes have been around on the internet for many years, its nothing new.

There is always family resentment somewhere if you do well in life.  Some people just cannot help but be jealous or expect to share the spoils.


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## lexiedhb (20 February 2007)

Dont know a great deal about Monty himself but i think that if you have had a problem horse taken it to him and it has helped you will sing his praises, if it hasnt in your eyes his methods dont work........ All families probably have a skeleton somewhere, and most authors/publishers probably dramatise it a bit to make it more saleable. If you personally have an opinion of his methods, and have seen them work then stick with the opinion you have formed!!


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## Tinypony (20 February 2007)

I have read the book at the horsewhispers and lies site, and Monty's dad's book (which is available on his website - surprisingly as the way I read it, Monty has misrepresented parts of it in his book The Man Who Listens to Horses).
I don't think anyone can take away from Monty his skills in horse training.  And the fact that he served to open doors that expanded some people's ideas on training horses.
To some it wouldn't matter that his family can produce documentary proof that he never went to the desert to bring back mustangs for the rodeo  (like his school attendance records!).  But it sort of does to me, because if he lied about something that can be proved that easily, how do we know if he is telling the truth about things that make a powerful impression on people, like the abuse by his dad?
I can't help thinking that if my family wrote and published a book which claimed that a large part of my own version of my life story was lies - I'd sue them.  It would be important to me that the truth was known.  If you go to court you can even stop something like that being published, but Monty didn't.  So for me there is a seed of doubt.  As Monty's family says - Because Truth Matters.


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## Bess (20 February 2007)

I thought his school life was pretty disrupted and why couldn't he have gone in the school holidays?


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## Tinypony (20 February 2007)

It wasn't pretty disrupted if you believe his family.  And he didn't go in the school holidays because of the dates he would need to have gone to get them.  And he's altered the names of the people who supposedly went with him I think it's 3 times in different publications of his book.  (In one version none of them would have had a driving licence!).  And his brother says they never went.  And the man who ran the rodeo says he got the horses from the same person every time, and wouldn't have trusted the job to a bunch of teenage boys...  You really need to read Horse Whispers and Lies to get the picture.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




http://www.horsewhispersandlies.com/index.html
You need to register to see it, but they don't hound you with emails or anything.  They have never contacted me.


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## Penguinboots (20 February 2007)

As much as I admire Monty Roberts, I did find his biography quite far-fetched....so this kinda backs it up, might check the books out.


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## FREESTYLER (21 February 2007)

Tinypony, this is what I was thinking.  I do admire his training, skills etc... but when he tells you about his beatings as a boy it makes you feel sorry for him and you think ahh that is why he took up this method of training for horses.  But if he did not get the beatings and as the book says took the glory for "find this method" when in fact he did not, it was the older chap who taught him it kinda makes Montys story not so great.  You admire him spending hours watching the mustangs when in fact he possibly did not.  Maybe he is just a good business man, 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 that I would not have a problem with but to tell porkies.. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




. ummm... I suppose we shall never know


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## siennamum (21 February 2007)

I've always resented the fact that he claims to have 'invented' or discovered these techniques when there were many people - especially Lucy Rees who preceeded him and did so with little self promotion.
I've also a few 2nd hand accounts of his horse management which are pretty dire. 
None of htis comes as a complete suprise.


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## Gingernags (21 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

In the book Roberts claims he suffered regular beatings at the hands of his late father, Marvin - once with a 4ft chain. He also described a childhood incident in which he saw his father, then a policeman, disarm a man wielding a knife in a bar fight. The eight-year-old boy's pride turned to horror when he saw his father beat the man, then haul him to the police station, where he died. He decided to escape from his father. 

Renebome says she is no longer prepared to put up with the "smearing" of the memory of Roberts's father. She was driven to demand withdrawal of his book because her counterblast, a privately published book titled Horse Whispers and Lies, had failed to deter him. 

"Monty depicts his father as cruel to him and to horses," she said. "It was so false and has been repeated by so many people that it has evoked strong passions in Salinas. 

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't mean it didn't happen.  I remember an argument with my mother where she took a  slipper to me and I took it off her and hit her back.  Yet if you mention it now - she will swear it never happened.  Well it did - she just doesn't remember it!  Also I had a huge fight with my Dad - which someone else started and he really went for me - so much so that I grabbed a carving knife off the kitchen worktop to defend myself - and got disowned for months afterwards - again they have no recollection of it.

[ QUOTE ]

Roberts now runs a ranch which employs "horse whispering", but it has come under attack from a disgruntled client, who claims she was left partly disabled when her mustang trampled her shortly after it returned from several months' treatment at Roberts's ranch and promises of having been totally reconditioned. 

"I read the book and believed it all - that is why I entrusted our horse to him," she said. 

Her fiance said: "I see the pain and suffering caused to her and I am going to be on his back for the rest of his life." 


[/ QUOTE ]

Just because Monty has sucessfully worked with her horse and it responded to him - how does anyone know what happened here?  The woman could have done anything to provoke the horse and its fight or flight instincts will still be there - why is it Monty's fault?

And for the record, I've never been to see a demo, though I have read his book, and though his methods make sense, he isn't the first or the only person to work this way so I'm not by any means one of his followers.

I just think this does smack of sour grapes because lets face it - money and success can cause very bitter feuds in families anywhere.  Jealousy and greed are very powerful motivators.


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## cosmo_sam (21 February 2007)

Here here on all count GM!


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## Tinypony (21 February 2007)

I don't have any particular axe to grind with this, Monty Roberts is just another trainer that I am interested in, and I read everything I can find.
I fully realise that people might not have been aware of abuse suffered by a child.  Not even the brother who shared his bath and would have surely seen marks from him being beaten with a chain - but - 
My point is that his family have assembled an impressive array of facts and witness statements that refute many of the main stories in Monty's book.  If someone did this just out of sour grapes and was lying, I repeat, why wouldn't Monty sue them?  Surely he would have to, to prove his integrity and honesty to his wide fan base?  
I'd say read Horse Whispers and Lies just out of interest.  I found it fascinating.  For example:
He was too young to have doubled for the actors he claimed to in Hollywood, for example Mickey Rooney is 15 years older than him.  Monty would have been between 4-6 years old and doubling for a 19 year old...
There was no round pen at the rodeo ground stables where Monty's father kept the horses, so no viewing area for him to watch horses being abused in it. (Or to practise in secret away from his dad).
"Enrolled at Sacred Heart School after the war, Montys attendance records between 1945 and 1949 are still on file. Monty claims he attended school only between ten and forty percent of the normal time, yet records show he was actually there more than ninety-five percent of the time. " (HW+L)
A quote from Tony Vargas, who in one version of Monty's book went to the desert to round up the horses with Monty -
"Im trying to figure out who was supposed to be driving. Im the oldest, but still didnt have a [drivers] license in June of nineteen forty-eight. The whole thing is a joke. Dick, Larry, and I all know we never went to Nevada with Monty to gather any wild horses. So before they print the book here [in the United States], he changes [the characters] to Ralph and Vivian [Carter] who, like his own mother and father, are dead and cant say they werent there either." 
So what I am saying is, if so much of what Monty wrote in his book can be proved to be untrue, what reason would anyone have to believe his stories of abuse by his father?
I just think if you want to have a balanced view, read both books.


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