# Working kelpies



## Moobli (7 March 2017)

Does anyone have one please?


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## MotherOfChickens (7 March 2017)

the farmer I rent land from has kept them for 20 years. not much help really


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## PorkChop (7 March 2017)

My friend in Cornwall has them, they are ace


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## MotherOfChickens (7 March 2017)

we had quite a long chat about them once-I wondered about temperament (his live in the house) as my kelpie experience in Oz wasn't great. He said they are great pen dogs, less good on the hill (he doesn't currently have a collie) and he's only had problems with temp in cross breeds. He admits said he's not the best trainer! he says he'll always have one-he has family in Oz so has spent time out there. is bitch is small but a lovely character.


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## Clodagh (7 March 2017)

I saw them a lot on Australia, mainly red clouds rather than black and tans. Rock hard little dogs who worked all day. They were bred as the border collie had too much coat and not enough drive for the outback. Very loyal, no temperament issues in the hard worked ones I saw. I had a kelpie x heeler who I bought back to England with me and she had enough emotional baggage to fill her own suitcase. 
Very vocal when working.


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## Moobli (7 March 2017)

Thanks everyone.  I quite fancy one but hubby is not playing ball at the moment!


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## Clodagh (7 March 2017)

I can't imagine they would work as 'tidily' as a collie, but it would be fun to train one, surely? And you could get it to do that running on the sheeps back thing.


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## Moobli (7 March 2017)

Clodagh said:



			I can't imagine they would work as 'tidily' as a collie, but it would be fun to train one, surely? And you could get it to do that running on the sheeps back thing. 

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Yeah the problem is I haven't seen any (yet) who work as stylishly as a collie and tend to hash the sheep around.  They are also known to be vocal which is a definite down side.


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## Clodagh (7 March 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Yeah the problem is I haven't seen any (yet) who work as stylishly as a collie and tend to hash the sheep around.  They are also known to be vocal which is a definite down side.
		
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The barking would drive me nuts!


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## Moobli (7 March 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			the farmer I rent land from has kept them for 20 years. not much help really 

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Have you seen them work?


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## Moobli (7 March 2017)

PorkChop said:



			My friend in Cornwall has them, they are ace 

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Do your friend's dogs work sheep?  Any videos?  They do seem to be more popular down South than up here.


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## Moobli (7 March 2017)

Clodagh said:



			The barking would drive me nuts!
		
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Yep and me - and definitely, definitely my OH!


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## MotherOfChickens (7 March 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Have you seen them work?
		
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no, I mainly see her on the back of a quad! 

I can't remember where they get theirs from now, happy to ask when I next see them?


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## Moobli (7 March 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			no, I mainly see her on the back of a quad! 

I can't remember where they get theirs from now, happy to ask when I next see them?
		
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Yes please


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## satinbaze (8 March 2017)

There are quite a few kelpies in agility as they are fast and able to beat the collies. I have seen a couple being trained and one was very biddable but his half brother was very hard and very very vocal. No ecperience of them on sheep


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## Pinkvboots (8 March 2017)

The farmer next door to me has a black and tan one he is a lovely dog very friendly, he had been trained with sheep before they got him but the farmer is having lessons with him so he can learn how to direct him, I have seen him with the sheep and he tends to just make them run around not herding as such not like a collie does but I thought they were mainly used to drive the sheep anyway so I suppose he is doing his job.


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## PorkChop (8 March 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Do your friend's dogs work sheep?  Any videos?  They do seem to be more popular down South than up here.
		
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Yes, I would agree they are not as stylish as a collie, no videos I'm afraid.  But hers didn't appear to be that barky!


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## Alec Swan (8 March 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Thanks everyone.  I quite fancy one but hubby is not playing ball at the moment!
		
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When ever we take a breed of dog and from it's national environment,  DON'T ask me why,  but it never really works.  The German Springers and Labs aren't a touch on ours!  Our own sheepdogs are all that we need.  Huntaways and Kelpies work well in their homelands,  but here we have collies and they're what work best.  I'd be with your hubby!

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (8 March 2017)

I bet the Labradors in Canada are better than the ones in the UK, then....


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## MotherOfChickens (8 March 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			When ever we take a breed of dog and from it's national environment,  DON'T ask me why,  but it never really works.  The German Springers and Labs aren't a touch on ours!  Our own sheepdogs are all that we need.  Huntaways and Kelpies work well in their homelands,  but here we have collies and they're what work best.  I'd be with your hubby!

Alec.
		
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and yet I am told that the English and Irish setters in Europe are much better.

Are kelpies bred to do the exact same job as a BC? I hadnt heard before they are a droving breed. Seems to me that kelpies and huntaways are for a different job which most owners would take into account I would hope.


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## Moobli (8 March 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			When ever we take a breed of dog and from it's national environment,  DON'T ask me why,  but it never really works.  The German Springers and Labs aren't a touch on ours!  Our own sheepdogs are all that we need.  Huntaways and Kelpies work well in their homelands,  but here we have collies and they're what work best.  I'd be with your hubby!

Alec.
		
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Interesting theory - and there might even be something in it!


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## Moobli (8 March 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			and yet I am told that the English and Irish setters in Europe are much better.

Are kelpies bred to do the exact same job as a BC? I hadnt heard before they are a droving breed. Seems to me that kelpies and huntaways are for a different job which most owners would take into account I would hope.
		
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Kelpies are bred for the same job as border collies but in such different terrain and conditions and that is perhaps why the very different styles and uses?  In Australia they do seem to talk much more about yard dogs (kelpies) and heading dogs (border collies) so it could be that over time it was found the collies were much better gatherers and kelpies more useful in the pens/yards.


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## MotherOfChickens (8 March 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Kelpies are bred for the same job as border collies but in such different terrain and conditions and that is perhaps why the very different styles and uses?  In Australia they do seem to talk much more about yard dogs (kelpies) and heading dogs (border collies) so it could be that over time it was found the collies were much better gatherers and kelpies more useful in the pens/yards.
		
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well my n of one says they are better yard dogs than on the hill.  Maybe you should ressurrect an old Scottish droving breed  

have you ever trained a beardie?


seems to me that with dogs (and horses) people who are an enthusiasts of that breed are prepared to overlook or work with any foibles-or indeed don't see them as foibles. 

(not just with working dogs-how many times do we say/read 'I love XX, they are the best dogs-of course recall is an issue and they kill strangers but they are always so cheerful'!  Of course they're cheerful, they're bledy dogs!  )


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## Moobli (8 March 2017)

I haven't trained a beardie but my hubby had one over 20 years ago and hasn't seen one to impress him since.  

ha!  I think you are right - enthusiasts of any breed will overlook any faults or foibles or just work with them.  My GSD is a useful yard and pen dog so perhaps I will forget the kelpie idea (as my OH is so against them) and stick with collies.


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## Clodagh (8 March 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			and yet I am told that the English and Irish setters in Europe are much better.

Are kelpies bred to do the exact same job as a BC? I hadnt heard before they are a droving breed. Seems to me that kelpies and huntaways are for a different job which most owners would take into account I would hope.
		
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Setters are bred to be HPR in Europe, and not here, so different rather than better maybe? Although they are very show bred over here now I suppose. Did the kennel club ever improve a breed!?


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## {97702} (8 March 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			I bet the Labradors in Canada are better than the ones in the UK, then....
		
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Snorts....


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## Alec Swan (8 March 2017)

Just a minor correction,  the Labrador as a dog was first imported in to this country,  from Canada though more likely from Newfoundland which is a separate breed which the early Labradors resembled.

The Labrador Retriever is an entirely British produced and developed breed of dog and those Labradors which now reside in Canada are almost all from imported British stock.  The Labrador Retriever is an amalgam of several breeds of which the original Newfoundland is probably at the base.  Just as Alsatians were named after an area,  it would be silly to say that they originated from Alsatia,  which doesn't even exist,  so the Labrador Retriever was given a name and even if they were called Canadian Retrievers,  that would be equally misleading because the breed is of entirely British design and concept.

No need to thank me,  just attempting to dispel more myth and ignorance! 

Alec.


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## {97702} (8 March 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Just a minor correction,  the Labrador as a dog was first imported in to this country,  from Canada though more likely from Newfoundland which is a separate breed which the early Labradors resembled.

The Labrador Retriever is an entirely British produced and developed breed of dog and those Labradors which now reside in Canada are almost all from imported British stock.  The Labrador Retriever is an amalgam of several breeds of which the original Newfoundland is probably at the base.  Just as Alsatians were named after an area,  it would be silly to say that they originated from Alsatia,  which doesn't even exist,  so the Labrador Retriever was given a name and even if they were called Canadian Retrievers,  that would be equally misleading because the breed is of entirely British design and concept.

No need to thank me,  just attempting to dispel more myth and ignorance! 

Alec.
		
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Ain't Wikipedia useful


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## MotherOfChickens (8 March 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Setters are bred to be HPR in Europe, and not here, so different rather than better maybe? Although they are very show bred over here now I suppose. Did the kennel club ever improve a breed!?
		
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I dunno, are the KC responsible for making a working breed unfashionable for working?


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## Alec Swan (8 March 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I dunno, are the KC responsible for making a working breed unfashionable for working?
		
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I'm not sure that it's actually the KC but the breed societies who have taken a dog which evolved and was bred to work,  attached their own agendas and now produce animals which are a barely recognisable as the same breed.  The breed societies do of course have the backing of the KC,  so few are beyond criticism.

As a footnote,  apart from those breeds which were originally bred as ornaments,  most breeds have a history of being bred to fulfil a purpose.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (8 March 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Setters are bred to be HPR in Europe, and not here, so different rather than better maybe? Although they are very show bred over here now I suppose. Did the kennel club ever improve a breed!?
		
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Are you referring to English Setters as a breed,  and if so,  are you sure of that?  The best man to ask is Dry Rot,  the pointing breeds being his speciality at one time.

Alec.


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## Clodagh (8 March 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I dunno, are the KC responsible for making a working breed unfashionable for working?
		
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That I don't know. Perhaps by selecting a breed standard that has little to do with working there is no benefit to breeding a dog to achieve both, and once you stop caring if it can work and only care how it looks then why take it out in the field?
How many show hunters would hunt successfully? They are all about 18hh for a start, you would hit every tree.


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## Alec Swan (8 March 2017)

^^^^ A good post.  Valid points too!

Alec.


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## Clodagh (8 March 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Are you referring to English Setters as a breed,  and if so,  are you sure of that?  The best man to ask is Dry Rot,  the pointing breeds being his speciality at one time.

Alec.
		
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The imported setters retrieve. Thankfully they are marginally taking off over here as I love them and would like to see them out and about again.
I mooted getting one but as OH pointed out, if they don't retrieve then it could spend all day pointing at something in our woods and we would just wonder where it had gone. Best for moors perhaps.


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## MotherOfChickens (8 March 2017)

Clodagh said:



			That I don't know. Perhaps by selecting a breed standard that has little to do with working there is no benefit to breeding a dog to achieve both, and once you stop caring if it can work and only care how it looks then why take it out in the field?
		
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yes, but there are breeds that although working and show lines have diverged somewhat, are still popular as working dogs (or more popular than I am led to believe setters are in the UK).


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## Moobli (8 March 2017)

Clodagh said:



			That I don't know. Perhaps by selecting a breed standard that has little to do with working there is no benefit to breeding a dog to achieve both, and once you stop caring if it can work and only care how it looks then why take it out in the field?
How many show hunters would hunt successfully? They are all about 18hh for a start, you would hit every tree.
		
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Absolutely!  Form follows function.


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## Clodagh (8 March 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			yes, but there are breeds that although working and show lines have diverged somewhat, are still popular as working dogs (or more popular than I am led to believe setters are in the UK).
		
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Like labradors and spaniels I suppose? Fair point. Trouble is breeds are common for a reason and any numpty could train a lab.


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## MotherOfChickens (8 March 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Like labradors and spaniels I suppose? Fair point. Trouble is breeds are common for a reason and any numpty could train a lab.
		
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I was kind of going towards that trainability (or foibles  ) might to to blame-then you get fewer people bout that can train them etc. I'm not sure the KC is to blame for that-even if its to blame for so much other stuff.


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## Alec Swan (8 March 2017)

Clodagh said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . Trouble is breeds are common for a reason and any numpty could train a lab.
		
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I've seen a great many dogs,  supposedly trained by numptys,  and never seen one yet that reached it's potential.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (8 March 2017)

Lévrier;13503490 said:
			
		


			Ain't Wikipedia useful 

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It is,  and it's only a shame that those who would make asinine comments don't avail themselves of the facility and before they make themselves seem rather foolish.

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (8 March 2017)

Oh right, I understood that the original dogs were imported from Labrador and the breed in England developed from there, hence the name. The same way as in Alsatians, seeing as you mentioned them, were imported from the Alsace region. While the English strain of the German Shepherd is a distinct type developed over a long time, I still wouldn't call them a breed of English origin. We'll have to agree to differ on whether breeds can excel outside of their country of origin, without the name calling


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## KittenInTheTree (9 March 2017)

I have a Kelpie cross Smooth Collie, from working lines (cattle and sheep). He's pretty much mute, and I found him very easy to train. He's far less intense than the Borders that I've met, and he's fully able to think and act independently of his handler when need be. Brilliant at things like: "Go and find X and then bring X to Y via Z!" The more complicated the better as far as he's concerned. Wakes me for my medication, alerts if I'm about to have a seizure and helps "make safe", that sort of silly trick. I don't think he'd be to everyone's taste; he certainly wouldn't suit the dog dancing types at all, and would probably just do an incredulous head tilt at the agility circuit and then wee on the tunnel before curling up for a snooze! He's been taught to completely ignore livestock unless told otherwise, because I have no need of his herding instincts, but that said we've stopped a few loose horses and escapee sheep by eye alone. Quite a few of the local farmers are very taken with him


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## Moobli (9 March 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:



			I have a Kelpie cross Smooth Collie, from working lines (cattle and sheep). He's pretty much mute, and I found him very easy to train. He's far less intense than the Borders that I've met, and he's fully able to think and act independently of his handler when need be. Brilliant at things like: "Go and find X and then bring X to Y via Z!" The more complicated the better as far as he's concerned. Wakes me for my medication, alerts if I'm about to have a seizure and helps "make safe", that sort of silly trick. I don't think he'd be to everyone's taste; he certainly wouldn't suit the dog dancing types at all, and would probably just do an incredulous head tilt at the agility circuit and then wee on the tunnel before curling up for a snooze! He's been taught to completely ignore livestock unless told otherwise, because I have no need of his herding instincts, but that said we've stopped a few loose horses and escapee sheep by eye alone. Quite a few of the local farmers are very taken with him 

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He sounds like a interesting cross.  Was it a deliberate cross?  Smooth collies are not really known for their sheep or cattle herding prowess I don't believe - but it is great to hear he is a useful dog.  Do you have any photos?  Does he look more kelpie or smooth collie?


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## Moobli (9 March 2017)

Having spent the last couple of days researching various breeders and the breed itself, I have come to the conclusion that for the type of terrain we farm and the breeds of sheep we keep that a kelpie - unless an outstanding example - is probably not going to be for me.


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## Clodagh (9 March 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Having spent the last couple of days researching various breeders and the breed itself, I have come to the conclusion that for the type of terrain we farm and the breeds of sheep we keep that a kelpie - unless an outstanding example - is probably not going to be for me.
		
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When I saw them working in Oz it was huge stations and driving about a million sheep. I never saw one seperate a single ewe like a collie would do (I acknowledge that doesn't mean they can't). They seemed more Aussie, rougher and a bit in your face.


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## MotherOfChickens (9 March 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			He sounds like a interesting cross.  Was it a deliberate cross?  Smooth collies are not really known for their sheep or cattle herding prowess I don't believe - but it is great to hear he is a useful dog.  Do you have any photos?  Does he look more kelpie or smooth collie?
		
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well, they used to-thats what they were for (droving). and although they tend to not use them for work in the UK now, they are used elsewhere. I think mostly the drive has been bred out of them. (although its maybe worth pointing out that some people call smooth coated collies smooth collies and they are not the same breed-this may not be the case with KIT but if you google ads for smooth collies, many of them are not).


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## Moobli (9 March 2017)

Clodagh said:



			When I saw them working in Oz it was huge stations and driving about a million sheep. I never saw one seperate a single ewe like a collie would do (I acknowledge that doesn't mean they can't). They seemed more Aussie, rougher and a bit in your face.
		
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Your last sentence has hit the nail on the head for me.


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## Moobli (9 March 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			well, they used to-thats what they were for (droving). and although they tend to not use them for work in the UK now, they are used elsewhere. I think mostly the drive has been bred out of them. (although its maybe worth pointing out that some people call smooth coated collies smooth collies and they are not the same breed-this may not be the case with KIT but if you google ads for smooth collies, many of them are not).
		
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Yes I appreciate they were once a working breed, but I haven't seen one working in a herding capacity ever (except in US herding tests on youtube) - so seems an interesting mix.  As you rightly say though, smooth collie could mean bare skinned border collie.


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## KittenInTheTree (10 March 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			He sounds like a interesting cross.  Was it a deliberate cross?  Smooth collies are not really known for their sheep or cattle herding prowess I don't believe - but it is great to hear he is a useful dog.  Do you have any photos?  Does he look more kelpie or smooth collie?
		
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Sorry, missed this. Dam was the Kelpie (red cloud, out of a black and tan), sire was the Smooth Collie (tricoloured "Lassie" type dog without all the hair, to clarify). The sire belonged to another local farmer, and there were nine pups in total - one tricolour, the rest black, or black and white.

Anyhow, mine is a leanly built dog, black with white markings, and a short, dense coat. He's an equal blend of both breeds in appearance - as if you took the frame of a Smooth Collie and then crammed it into the exterior of a Kelpie. His ears do their own thing depending on the occasion! As a young pup, he was very chunky, then he spent from twelve months to three and a half years as mostly legs and huge paws. He really only filled out properly in his fourth year (now rising six). He's not a very large dog; he's only 22" at his shoulder, just shy of 24" along his back, and 22.5kg in weight.

Most recent photo:


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## MotherOfChickens (10 March 2017)

Can't see a photo!   interesting mix, the smooths seem to be very gentle dogs-completely game outside but proper couch potatoes inside (perfect really!). sounds like he's about male smooth collie size, the kelpies I've known have all been smaller.


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## KittenInTheTree (10 March 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			Can't see a photo!   interesting mix, the smooths seem to be very gentle dogs-completely game outside but proper couch potatoes inside (perfect really!). sounds like he's about male smooth collie size, the kelpies I've known have all been smaller.
		
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Funnily enough, the photo is him in couch potato mode!  It's on my profile in the album titled "Dog"  I'll try again:

https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=29904&d=1489114930
https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=29903&d=1489114929


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## Clodagh (10 March 2017)

Off topic, but can you still train GSDs to round up sheep? Is that their historical job or was it more flock guard?


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## Moobli (10 March 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:



			Funnily enough, the photo is him in couch potato mode!  It's on my profile in the album titled "Dog"  I'll try again:

https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=29904&d=1489114930
https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=29903&d=1489114929

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Still no photos


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## CorvusCorax (10 March 2017)

The role of the GSD was more that of a 'moving fence' to keep sheep off crops and keep predators and thieves out. But they do have to round up/drive the sheep in competition.

The HGH championships still take place every year in Germany and there is a class for herding dogs at the BSZS/World Sieger show too.


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## Moobli (10 March 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Off topic, but can you still train GSDs to round up sheep? Is that their historical job or was it more flock guard?
		
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GSDs were originally used in a tending capacity as a "living fence" to keep sheep in the graze and away from crops or the road and moving vehicles when moving the flock from one graze to another.  The German sheep tend to be large, heavy and quite tame (they come to the human shepherd's call) and so there is no gathering required (a la border collie).  They were also required to protect the flock and the shepherd from predators and intruders but not in the style of the Livestock Guardian breeds.  The versatility of the breed was very quickly recognised though and I believe their sheep tending days were relatively short lived, other than in some areas of rural Germany.  Outside Germany they became far more useful in the military, police etc.  

My own GSD does help on our farm but his natural instinct is not obvious, but he is versatile and biddable and so can be trained to do certain jobs - rather than it coming naturally to him as it would a border collie.


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## Moobli (10 March 2017)

This short video gives you a taster of the HGH trial and you will see it is a world apart from our sheep dog trials.  Completely different type and style of work and different sheep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWBEyqFcN5A


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## KittenInTheTree (10 March 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Still no photos 

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Please work this time! If you can see them, the one in the snow was when he was about two and a half, the other was a few weeks back


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## Moobli (10 March 2017)

A longer video (if interested ... and even I don't find it that interesting to watch lol) shows Ulf Kintzel and his dog Lenz doing an HGH type herding trial in the USA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iT-St_vsEg


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## CorvusCorax (10 March 2017)

I find it like watching paint dry, lol!!


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## Moobli (10 March 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:















Please work this time! If you can see them, the one in the snow was when he was about two and a half, the other was a few weeks back 

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Ummm ... sorry   Still no photo.


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## Moobli (10 March 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			I find it like watching paint dry, lol!!
		
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PMSL - I was trying to be diplomatic


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## KittenInTheTree (10 March 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Ummm ... sorry   Still no photo.
		
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I can see them, must be gremlins.


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## {97702} (10 March 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			Oh right, I understood that the original dogs were imported from Labrador and the breed in England developed from there, hence the name. The same way as in Alsatians, seeing as you mentioned them, were imported from the Alsace region. While the English strain of the German Shepherd is a distinct type developed over a long time, I still wouldn't call them a breed of English origin. We'll have to agree to differ on whether breeds can excel outside of their country of origin, without the name calling 

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Sadly AlecSwan is incapable of reasonable conversation without resorting to name calling - and he continues to 'bite' at every opportunity which gives me some very mild amusement on a dull evening


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## KittenInTheTree (10 March 2017)

Lévrier;13504929 said:
			
		


			Sadly AlecSwan is incapable of reasonable conversation without resorting to name calling - and he continues to 'bite' at every opportunity which gives me some very mild amusement on a dull evening 

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Get a hobby. Crocheting, perhaps. Or world domination. Both great ways to pass the time


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## ester (10 March 2017)

It's your album being glitchy, it shows up but then says wrong link or something. 

So, how about an aussie shepherd


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## {97702} (10 March 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:



			Get a hobby. Crocheting, perhaps. Or world domination. Both great ways to pass the time 

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Personally I would prefer to be more original than copy tired old ideas


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## Clodagh (11 March 2017)

It would all be a bit more mature if Levrier and CC could stop getting excited every time Alec posts anything. I like all three of you and recognise that you all have valid opinions but really you two step out of the school playground!


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## Clodagh (11 March 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			This short video gives you a taster of the HGH trial and you will see it is a world apart from our sheep dog trials.  Completely different type and style of work and different sheep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWBEyqFcN5A

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Well... I didn't manage the whole minute, but I get the idea. Do people pay to go and watch that!?


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## Moobli (11 March 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Well... I didn't manage the whole minute, but I get the idea. Do people pay to go and watch that!?
		
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  No idea!  Zzzzz! I would actually like to go and see one in person but not sure it will be any more entertaining than watching online tbh.


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## KittenInTheTree (11 March 2017)

Lévrier;13505001 said:
			
		


			Personally I would prefer to be more original than copy tired old ideas 

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Hmm, well I don't think anyone has tried taking over the world using an army of greyhounds wearing bespoke crocheted vests yet?


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## {97702} (11 March 2017)

Clodagh said:



			It would all be a bit more mature if Levrier and CC could stop getting excited every time Alec posts anything. I like all three of you and recognise that you all have valid opinions but really you two step out of the school playground!
		
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Ooooo who made you 'miss' then.....    Personally I have AS on UI


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## Slightlyconfused (11 March 2017)

We had a labxkelpie 
Amazing dog so willing to learn. 
She was going to be my brothers assistance dog but we lost her at 20 months to a brain tumor. 

She was vocal but only when alerting us to a visitor and that was slowing getting less the more she learned the "enough command. 

Ignores sheep when I told her leave if we encountered the ones that liked to escape.


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## Slightlyconfused (11 March 2017)

Her ears had a mind of there own


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## Slightlyconfused (11 March 2017)

So beautiful to watch running


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## Slightlyconfused (11 March 2017)

Next to my collie


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## KittenInTheTree (11 March 2017)

Beautiful dog, Slightlyconfused, am so sorry to hear that you lost her at such a young age


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## Moobli (12 March 2017)

What a gorgeous dog and ditto what KITT says about losing her so young   Life can be cruel.


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## planete (12 March 2017)

Interesting discussion.  It was believed  in France by some that the Germans 'stole' the breed and popularised it. When the French started a GSD club they called the breed 'alsacien' to claim it as their own.  The ongoing enmity between France and Germany at the time also meant any dog called german would have been unpopular so a good French name was preferred.  Sorry, trivia, I know and I am not taking sides!


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## Slightlyconfused (12 March 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:



			Beautiful dog, Slightlyconfused, am so sorry to hear that you lost her at such a young age 

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WorkingGSD said:



			What a gorgeous dog and ditto what KITT says about losing her so young   Life can be cruel.
		
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Thank you. 

I don't think I've ever met a more trainable dog other than my collies but she also had a independent bit in her that the collies didn't have or was stronger than them if that makes sense. 
She would listen and do as I said no problem but she was also happy being given a command to go way and do something. 

If my collie did come back (every now and again he would blank me which is why he only got let off away from people) she would look at me when she came back I would tell her to go get him and she would. 
She would run to him and herd him back to me.


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## KittenInTheTree (12 March 2017)

Slightlyconfused said:



			Thank you. 

I don't think I've ever met a more trainable dog other than my collies but she also had a independent bit in her that the collies didn't have or was stronger than them if that makes sense. 
She would listen and do as I said no problem but she was also happy being given a command to go way and do something. 

If my collie did come back (every now and again he would blank me which is why he only got let off away from people) she would look at me when she came back I would tell her to go get him and she would. 
She would run to him and herd him back to me.
		
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I've noticed that independent/capable mindset in mine too, it seems to be a Kelpie trait


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## Slightlyconfused (12 March 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:



			I've noticed that independent/capable mindset in mine too, it seems to be a Kelpie trait 

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Glad I'm not the only one, no one I know has a kelpie and they couldn't understand when I said the collies are always looking to work with you but with penny the kelpie side made it so she wanted to work with you but she was also very confident and happy to go off and work on her own without checking in as long as she knows her job
Which I suppose as they are used as driving dogs in Australia that is where is comes from.


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## KittenInTheTree (13 March 2017)

Slightlyconfused said:



			Glad I'm not the only one, no one I know has a kelpie and they couldn't understand when I said the collies are always looking to work with you but with penny the kelpie side made it so she wanted to work with you but she was also very confident and happy to go off and work on her own without checking in as long as she knows her job
Which I suppose as they are used as driving dogs in Australia that is where is comes from.
		
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Yes, when you think about the vast distances that individual farms cover there, the dogs would inevitably need to be able to work independently


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## Cinnamontoast (13 March 2017)

Very interesting about kelpies, not a breed I know anything about bar meeting one in the woods one day. Are they naturally Bob tailed or am I thinking of something else? 



Alec Swan said:



			Just a minor correction,  the Labrador as a dog was first imported in to this country,  from Canada though more likely from Newfoundland which is a separate breed which the early Labradors resembled.

The Labrador Retriever is an entirely British produced and developed breed of dog and those Labradors which now reside in Canada are almost all from imported British stock.  The Labrador Retriever is an amalgam of several breeds of which the original Newfoundland is probably at the base.  Just as Alsatians were named after an area,  it would be silly to say that they originated from Alsatia,  which doesn't even exist,  so the Labrador Retriever was given a name and even if they were called Canadian Retrievers,  that would be equally misleading because the breed is of entirely British design and concept.

No need to thank me,  just attempting to dispel more myth and ignorance! 

Alec.
		
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Someone's explained well below, Planete, who I think is actually French, unlike me, despite the name. Thought we were meant to call them Gsds now we're (allegedly!) over the whole anti-German thing. 



Alec Swan said:



			It is,  and it's only a shame that those who would make asinine comments don't avail themselves of the facility and before they make themselves seem rather foolish.

Alec.
		
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Meow, saucer of milk over here, please! 



planete said:



			Interesting discussion.  It was believed  in France by some that the Germans 'stole' the breed and popularised it. When the French started a GSD club they called the breed 'alsacien' to claim it as their own.  The ongoing enmity between France and Germany at the time also meant any dog called german would have been unpopular so a good French name was preferred.  Sorry, trivia, I know and I am not taking sides!
		
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I might be remembering wrongly, but didn't the SS use them as guard dogs etc? I saw a play in memory of Holocaust survivors (they come to our school, amazing people) and the actor claimed they were given and raised a GSD pup then made to dispose of it to demonstrate loyalty to the Führer. The actor was very concerned by my sobbing, Jake had just been PTS :redface3:


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## CorvusCorax (13 March 2017)

The breed was developed by a German army captain in the late 1800s/early 1900s and the history and development is well documented. Every GSD can be traced back to the original founding dog. The wallcharts of the main bloodlines are bloody huge now though 

They are from the region of Alsace, hence the Alsatian Wolf Dog name given when the breed was introduced to Britain (by an army captain, among others, ironically), due to anti German sentiment at the time. Again this is all well documented.
Parts of Germany are now in France and vice versa. I've been to the region and the people are still very proud of the breed. Still didn't watch any herding trials lol.


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## Moobli (14 March 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:



			Yes, when you think about the vast distances that individual farms cover there, the dogs would inevitably need to be able to work independently 

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Definitely and this is also why the border collie should be bred for and encouraged to work at distance and with independent thought.  They are also required to cover large areas of ground, often hilly or mountainous terrain where they are out of sight of the shepherd.  Of course there are still some good collies who can do this, but with the decline in sheep farming and the increase in hobby triallists, independent thinking is less important to some than a dog who is biddable and who takes (and needs) almost constant commanding.  It is not good for the breed in general imo.


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## Moobli (14 March 2017)

cinnamontoast said:



			Very interesting about kelpies, not a breed I know anything about bar meeting one in the woods one day. Are they naturally Bob tailed or am I thinking of something else?
		
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No kelpies are not bob tailed, so you must be getting them mixed up with a different breed.  There is apparently an Australian Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog which is a naturally bobtailed version of the ACD.


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## Moobli (14 March 2017)

cinnamontoast said:



			I might be remembering wrongly, but didn't the SS use them as guard dogs etc? I saw a play in memory of Holocaust survivors (they come to our school, amazing people) and the actor claimed they were given and raised a GSD pup then made to dispose of it to demonstrate loyalty to the Führer. The actor was very concerned by my sobbing, Jake had just been PTS :redface3:
		
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I am sure the SS will have used them as guard dogs and the story above would not surprise me.

An interesting site here about the use of dogs in combat

http://www.k9history.com/WWII-combat-soviets-axis.htm


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## Moobli (14 March 2017)

In fact the website linked above states :


During the Second World War every concentration camp had its SS dog unit. The dogs, trained to attack inmates, were deeply feared. Heinrich Himmler, the SS chief who was himself a German shepherd owner, said that the purpose of the dogs was "to encircle prisoners like a flock of sheep and so prevent escape".


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## Moobli (14 March 2017)

I won't forget watching some old footage about these dogs 

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/12/anti-tank-dogs-world-war-ii/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...talins-dogs-war-explosives-strapped-them.html


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## planete (14 March 2017)




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## Slightlyconfused (14 March 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Definitely and this is also why the border collie should be bred for and encouraged to work at distance and with independent thought.  They are also required to cover large areas of ground, often hilly or mountainous terrain where they are out of sight of the shepherd.  Of course there are still some good collies who can do this, but with the decline in sheep farming and the increase in hobby triallists, independent thinking is less important to some than a dog who is biddable and who takes (and needs) almost constant commanding.  It is not good for the breed in general imo.
		
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My collie I lost a few years ago was amazing at working at a distance without too much command but always kept and eye on where I was.


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## Clodagh (14 March 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			No kelpies are not bob tailed, so you must be getting them mixed up with a different breed.  There is apparently an Australian Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog which is a naturally bobtailed version of the ACD.
		
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The Australian shepherd is either bob tailed or docked, don't know which.


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## satinbaze (15 March 2017)

Clodagh said:



			The Australian shepherd is either bob tailed or docked, don't know which.
		
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The Australian shepherd can be born either natural bob tail or with a full tail which is then traditionally docked. However UK born Aussies often have tails, due to anti docking laws. Apparently you should not mate natural bob to natural bob as it causes spinal issues, just as Merle to Merle matings cause eye and liver issues


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## Lucyad (15 March 2017)

It's Australian Cattle Dogs that can come in 'stumpy tailed' versions, and I have never heard of the full tailed ones being docked here or in Aus (maybe a US thing?). Not Australian Shepherds. I have an ACD (blue heeler), and could do with a few 1000's of acres and some cows to keep her occupied, which might divert her from trying to round up the horses. Lots of training, agility and desensitisation is slowly beginning to work, but it is a real uphill struggle trying to control her natural herding urges!


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## Clodagh (15 March 2017)

Lucyad said:



			It's Australian Cattle Dogs that can come in 'stumpy tailed' versions, and I have never heard of the full tailed ones being docked here or in Aus (maybe a US thing?). Not Australian Shepherds. I have an ACD (blue heeler), and could do with a few 1000's of acres and some cows to keep her occupied, which might divert her from trying to round up the horses. Lots of training, agility and desensitisation is slowly beginning to work, but it is a real uphill struggle trying to control her natural herding urges!
		
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I have never seen a ACD (Blue or red heeler to me) with a short tail?


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## Lucyad (15 March 2017)

Me neither - there aren't very many with tails here, never mind stumpy tailed! I just read about them when researching the breed before getting ours. They are a separate breed - stumpy tailed ACD - but originating from same foundation stock.  Few differences in colour and conformation standard too. No idea if there are actually any in uk at all.

Edited to add - oh, I have googled and you are right, you do get stumpy tailed Australian Shepherds too! Never seen one without a tail here. Wonder if it from the same gene as the stumpy ACD's - I suppose that way back they would have had similar foundation stock?


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## Cinnamontoast (16 March 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			They are from the region of Alsace, hence the Alsatian Wolf Dog name given when the breed was introduced to Britain (by an army captain, among others, ironically), due to anti German sentiment at the time. Again this is all well documented.
Parts of Germany are now in France and vice versa.
		
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Indeed. I lived in Alsace-Lorraine and the architecture is far more German gothic fairy tale than French fancy! The annexing that went on back in the day was crazy. Lots of interesting names remain to commemorate the history. I lived in Metz, not very French sounding. :biggrin3:


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## CorvusCorax (16 March 2017)

Yeah pretty much all the people spoke German and the food was very Germanic. Even though we were in France


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## Moobli (18 September 2017)

Back on to my kelpie quest   It seems to come over me once a year or so.  Sadly just missed out on a litter, so may have to wait until next year unless I can find another suitable one before then.


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## MotherOfChickens (18 September 2017)

erm, farmer friend is getting two mid-December from the same litter (lol) but they're coming from Devon/Somerset I think.

He moans about his during lambing and then seems to have memory failure later on in the year


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## CorvusCorax (18 September 2017)

Lol. Just read this again. The German federal herding championships for GSDs finished yesterday.

My fear for Kelpies like a lot of other breeds is that the traits that make them what they are will be bred out of them to make them more suitable for pet homes. And the people that what Kelpies for what they were naturally intended to do will have to look a bit harder.


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## Moobli (18 September 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			erm, farmer friend is getting two mid-December from the same litter (lol) but they're coming from Devon/Somerset I think.

He moans about his during lambing and then seems to have memory failure later on in the year 

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Ooh find out where please?  I wonder if I could have one dropped off on the way past ...


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## Moobli (18 September 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			Lol. Just read this again. The German federal herding championships for GSDs finished yesterday.

My fear for Kelpies like a lot of other breeds is that the traits that make them what they are will be bred out of them to make them more suitable for pet homes. And the people that what Kelpies for what they were naturally intended to do will have to look a bit harder.
		
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Yes, depressing isn't it.


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## MotherOfChickens (18 September 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			Lol. Just read this again. The German federal herding championships for GSDs finished yesterday.

My fear for Kelpies like a lot of other breeds is that the traits that make them what they are will be bred out of them to make them more suitable for pet homes. And the people that what Kelpies for what they were naturally intended to do will have to look a bit harder.
		
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its already happening-lots of kelpies and crosses showing up on behaviour pages. I suspect the crosses are for what you mean though.


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## MotherOfChickens (18 September 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Ooh find out where please?  I wonder if I could have one dropped off on the way past ... 

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will try and get some details for you


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## Moobli (18 September 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			its already happening-lots of kelpies and crosses showing up on behaviour pages. I suspect the crosses are for what you mean though.
		
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Kelpies seem to be appearing in agility more regularly now too, and I believe there are even now "sport lines".


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## Moobli (18 September 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			will try and get some details for you 

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Thanks.  Shallow I know, but I really want a red one (as well as one from good working parents)


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## MotherOfChickens (18 September 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Thanks.  Shallow I know, but I really want a red one (as well as one from good working parents) 

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their current bitch is a red-expect I will just get a phone number forwarded to me  but will let you know. dont think they would go all that way for an unproven working line!


there were a fair few cropping up on a FB dog training page that I had to leave (the page owners are good trainers-experienced and successful agility people, about 75% of their followers I wanted to smack upside their heads lol) due to people taking these breeds on and refusing to acknowledge their dogs' raison d'etre. The penchant for 'mini' aussies and  mini sibes was especially perplexing although more of a US thing (for now)! I am better off being in denial about the whole thing.


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## Moobli (18 September 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			their current bitch is a red-expect I will just get a phone number forwarded to me  but will let you know. dont think they would go all that way for an unproven working line!


there were a fair few cropping up on a FB dog training page that I had to leave (the page owners are good trainers-experienced and successful agility people, about 75% of their followers I wanted to smack upside their heads lol) due to people taking these breeds on and refusing to acknowledge their dogs' raison d'etre. The penchant for 'mini' aussies and  mini sibes was especially perplexing although more of a US thing (for now)! I am better off being in denial about the whole thing.
		
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Sounds like a page to avoid like the plague! 

Wonder if the pups are coming from Lyndhurst or Devonairs lines - which seem to be the two "big" breeders down south.


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## Clodagh (18 September 2017)

Do you call them 'red clouds' over here, or is that an Aussie thing?


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## Moobli (18 September 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Do you call them 'red clouds' over here, or is that an Aussie thing?
		
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I have heard the term but not in working circles over here - they are just red or red and tan.


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## Alec Swan (18 September 2017)

I've never had a Kelpie nor anything to do with them.  Though they're handsome animals and probably with more of a conformity to a 'Standard',  those Collie-people who I've known who have had them,  always seem to revert back to Collies.  I always thought that if I took one on and didn't like it,  what would happen to it.  

I once went with a chum to buy some sheep and the guy,  when we finally arrived,  had a Huntaway.  To say that it was vocal would be an understatement and I felt that the dog relied more upon its voice (which mostly the sheep ignored!) than any of the power which we look for in a Collie.

Alec.


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## Clodagh (18 September 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			I have heard the term but not in working circles over here - they are just red or red and tan.
		
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Interesting. No black and tans? The red cloud was slightly different, tended to be a bit smaller than the black and tans, more collie like perhaps. Some would say 'Red Cloud kelpie' and some just 'red cloud'. 
They didn't seem to have the finesse of a border but were bred to do a slightly different job, maybe?


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## Moobli (18 September 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Interesting. No black and tans? The red cloud was slightly different, tended to be a bit smaller than the black and tans, more collie like perhaps. Some would say 'Red Cloud kelpie' and some just 'red cloud'. 
They didn't seem to have the finesse of a border but were bred to do a slightly different job, maybe?
		
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Sorry I didn't mean there weren't any black/tans - that seems to be the most popular colour or at least the most common.  There are some kelpies that are good all rounders and use eye, a little like a stylish collie, but I think they have a more plain working style.

Kelpies great strengths seems to be in their tirelessness, stamina and ability to drive huge mobs of sheep over enormous distances.  From my limited experience and knowledge (and with a healthy dose of generalisation!), it would seem that kelpies are slower to mature, less intense than collies (in that they can't take training pressure unlike collies who excel at it) so learn better in short training sessions and with on the job training.  If we do get one, it will be very interesting to see the differences.


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## bonny (18 September 2017)

I have a kelpie/border collie cross so the best of both worlds although he looks like a pure Black and Tan kelpie. I got him from a farm in the borders where both parents are good working dogs and he's an absolutely brilliant dog. I've had collies all my life but I'd say he's better in everyway, easy to train, lovely nature and stunning to look at. His siblings all work and although my dog is a pet I have no doubt he would make an excellent working dog.


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## Alec Swan (18 September 2017)

bonny said:



			I have a kelpie/border collie cross so the best of both worlds &#8230;&#8230;.. His siblings all work &#8230;&#8230;..
		
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It would be interesting to hear from those,  directly,  who have cross-bred dogs and use them for daily work.  The 'general' experience of those who crossbreed dogs in the hope that they'll take up the benefits from both breeds,  in reality,  is that the pups generally benefit from neither.  Back in the 1800s there were those who decided to cross English Pointers with Labrador Retrievers in the hope that they would produce pups which would both point and retrieve.  They ended up invariably,  with pups which did neither!

It may be that the influences of the Pointer and Labs were so opposing to each other that they didn't stand a chance anyway,  and it may also be that though the styles of the Kelpie and the Collie are different,  the herding instinct is in both so it may well come to the fore.  I'd be genuinely interested if those who keep these dogs as a first cross could join with us.

Kelpies for instance are considered to have an improved level of stamina,  though perhaps a little more lackadaisical about their work,  whilst I've had collies which are so intense that after less than an hour of focussed work,  they're all but off their legs,  despite the fact that they were fit dogs.  I would be interested to hear of the benefits to the cross.

Alec.


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## Moobli (19 September 2017)

Well I don't hang around ...

Male kelpie pup booked!  The litter are three weeks old at the moment and I got the last dog puppy.  Just a bit excited!


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## Moobli (19 September 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			I've never had a Kelpie nor anything to do with them.  Though they're handsome animals and probably with more of a conformity to a 'Standard',  those Collie-people who I've known who have had them,  always seem to revert back to Collies.  I always thought that if I took one on and didn't like it,  what would happen to it.  

I once went with a chum to buy some sheep and the guy,  when we finally arrived,  had a Huntaway.  To say that it was vocal would be an understatement and I felt that the dog relied more upon its voice (which mostly the sheep ignored!) than any of the power which we look for in a Collie.

Alec.
		
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OH had a wonderful Huntaway about 20 years ago but hasn't be persuaded back to one since ... especially when the assistant shepherd bought one and spent most of his time yelling at it to shut up


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## ester (19 September 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Well I don't hang around ...

Male kelpie pup booked!  The litter are three weeks old at the moment and I got the last dog puppy.  Just a bit excited! 

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ooh  red?


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## Moobli (19 September 2017)

ester said:



			ooh  red? 

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Yes!


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## Clodagh (19 September 2017)

Fantastic. Can't wait for pics. Is he in Scotland?


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## Mightymax (19 September 2017)

Hi, 

Just seen this about Kelpies.  I live on a farm and own a 7 y.o. solid red, male Kelpie.  I only have experience of this particular dog which I've had since a pup, so by no means an expert on the breed, and wouldn't know if he is a typical Kelpie, but having also had other breeds of dog over the years including Collies and GSD's, there is no comparison!  

He works as my partner, not my slave. He is very loyal and stays with me all the time, plus he's hugely intelligent with a terrific work ethic being very quick to learn things, usually only taking one 'explanation' to understand what is needed.  Then that is it. That's how you do it. He just loves to work. 

As an example, I started some agility with him, which was fine, until we had a change of trainer, who wanted to do things in a different way. Cue: huge vocal temper tantrums, as this was NOT the way we did it! 

I also have sheep, but he shows no interest in herding them at all. This is probably my fault, as I did not let him see sheep until he was about 3 y.o. Although he comes from working stock and has Australian papers, he does not seem to be sheep savvy in the way a working bred Collie would be. (My Old GSD would automatically herd sheep having had no training.) 

Following an injury that put paid to carrying on with agility, I now do tracking with him, which he loves. 

To sum up, I would say that they are not really a pet, are hard tough, (but also sensitive, If that makes sense?) clever, independent and vocal dogs, needing a lot of mental stimulation. He can also sometimes be a bit sharp with other dogs. Given the chance, he can also be very demanding (bossy!) getting quite vocal if he doesn't get his own way.( My OH lets him get away with blue murder lol!) 

He lives in the house with my other dogs, but unless in his indoor kennel he doesn't really have an off button. Give him his toy and he will amuse himself all evening by hiding it in the log basket, and then puzzling out the best way of retrieving it, or placing it very carefully on my knee for me to give it back to him!  

He hates the very hot weather which is strange considering his Australian heritage and is quite noise sensitive. He also totally covers himself with his blanket at night, with maybe just his nose or a paw showing.  Perhaps a throwback to his supposed Dingo blood? 

Please don't ask me to post photos, as I haven't a clue how, however to get an idea, put 'Red Dog' into youtube as there  was a film about a Kelpie. My boy is identical. Hope this essay has been of use to anyone else considering a Kelpie.


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## Moobli (19 September 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Fantastic. Can't wait for pics. Is he in Scotland?
		
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Don't worry I will post pics (if I can manage it now there is no poobucket!).  He is on the Welsh/Shropshire border but a farmer in Cumbria is having a pup too, so I am hoping he will bring my pup as far as his home and I will collect him from there.


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## Moobli (19 September 2017)

Thanks MightyMax for the insight into your own dog.  He sounds a delight  - other than his lack of interest in sheep of course   My pup is coming from parents that work sheep and cattle and so I am hoping he will have the right work instincts and ethic.  Your description of your dog's temperament does sound typical of the breed from what I have read.  

I have the Red Dog film and love it.


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## Mightymax (19 September 2017)

Looking forward to hearing how you get on with your Kelpie, and seeing pictures too, of course!


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## Clodagh (19 September 2017)

The two red clouds I knew in Australia were both stockmenas dogs. They were with their owners all day and slept in the swag with them at night, so Mightymax description of loyal sounds true. They turned their paw to anything and were on the go all day, they didn't really round up sheep in an organised manner. Tough as old boots, both of them... and the dogs too!


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## Moobli (19 September 2017)

They sound like real characters Clodagh - men and dogs!   I like the idea of having a hard as nails, go all day sort of a dog.  My collies and WL GSD are full of energy and have good stamina, but I have a feeling that the kelpie will really outdo them all in terms of stamina.  

Might need some help with a name and want something Aussie-related.

I like Aussie or Oz, but too common.
Sydney - Syd for short is a contender.
OH had a Bruce in the past so that is no go.
I quite like Rex but OH doesn't.


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## Clodagh (19 September 2017)

One of the dog's was disembowelled by a kangaroo (not all that uncommon) and the man just pushed its guts back in and sewed it up. The vet wasn't really an option out in the outback, the dog made a full recovery but had an impressive scar. The only thing they really worried about was snakes - not so many of them in the Highlands, I don't suppose!?

I like Syd. Victoria Bitter is a popular beer over there - Vic?


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## ester (19 September 2017)

Tell OH you will call it Sheila instead then


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## Mightymax (19 September 2017)

My boy is Ned after Ned Kelly (Australian Outlaw). Also, I believe the name a type of red wine....... Perfect!


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## Alec Swan (19 September 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			OH had a wonderful Huntaway about 20 years ago but hasn't be persuaded back to one since ... especially when the assistant shepherd bought one and spent most of his time yelling at it to shut up 

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Yes,  I can just imagine,  I'm glad that I'm not the only one!  The constant baleful barking would drive me round the bend!  The one that I saw simply didn't stop!

Alec.


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## Clodagh (19 September 2017)

Where a huntaway would be useful though - when the shepherd mumbles to his collie in a mountainous area and asks the collie to go and fetch the sheep 3 hills over and bring them back, with a collie you wouldn't know how he was getting on, but with a huntaway it would be like fitting him with GPS!


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## Moobli (19 September 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Where a huntaway would be useful though - when the shepherd mumbles to his collie in a mountainous area and asks the collie to go and fetch the sheep 3 hills over and bring them back, with a collie you wouldn't know how he was getting on, but with a huntaway it would be like fitting him with GPS!
		
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Ha ha that's true!


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## Clodagh (25 September 2017)

Have you been watching 'A Year on The Farm' it is on More4. We watched one last night (downloaded, not live) about sheep in the Lakes, Swaledales mainly. There was a fleeting glimpse of what I am sure was a kelpie, although the other dogs were nearly all your standard border collie. And for chicken people they had some nice silver laced wyandotte bantams, too.
 It is a good program if anyone would like to see it, only four episodes I think, Norfolk Black turkeys was 1, a small organic Dairy Herd was 2, mixed smallholding in Wales 3 and then the Lakes. 
Although it is aimed, obviously, at the general public it is not too dumb.


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## Moobli (25 September 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Have you been watching 'A Year on The Farm' it is on More4. We watched one last night (downloaded, not live) about sheep in the Lakes, Swaledales mainly. There was a fleeting glimpse of what I am sure was a kelpie, although the other dogs were nearly all your standard border collie. And for chicken people they had some nice silver laced wyandotte bantams, too.
 It is a good program if anyone would like to see it, only four episodes I think, Norfolk Black turkeys was 1, a small organic Dairy Herd was 2, mixed smallholding in Wales 3 and then the Lakes. 
Although it is aimed, obviously, at the general public it is not too dumb.
		
Click to expand...

I watched the four programmes and really enjoyed it.  Especially the Lakes one, as the farm is only 4 miles from where I was born and grew up.  A lovely part of the country.  I will have to watch it again (I recorded it) to see if I can spy a kelpie.  I know a few Lakes shepherds who have the odd kelpie or huntaway, as well as the collies.

I am also really enjoying This Farming Life which is back for a second series.


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## Moobli (25 September 2017)

Only a month to go.  I am getting very excited


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## Clodagh (25 September 2017)

Oh very cute. 
We love 'This Farming Life' too. It certainly won't be doing Scottish tourism any harm!


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## Moobli (25 September 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Oh very cute. 
We love 'This Farming Life' too. It certainly won't be doing Scottish tourism any harm!
		
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Ha!  Absolutely.  If anyone fancies a Scottish holiday, the lovely couple on Mull also have holiday cottages on their farm


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## Moobli (7 October 2017)

After discussion and debate .... he has been named Oz (or Ozzy).  Not very original, but a good short name and we all like it.  He will be home at the end of the month.

Not something I have done before, but thinking of getting some Indian Runner ducks so I can start his training a little earlier than on sheep.


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## ester (7 October 2017)

*sings* 'I see trouble.... up ahead.... '


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## Clodagh (7 October 2017)

ester said:



			*sings* 'I see trouble.... up ahead.... '
		
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How can you say such a thing? He has the face of a cherub!


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## Slightlyconfused (7 October 2017)

&#128525;&#128525;&#128525; 
You do realise that you will need to do a blog type post so you can keep us updated and i can get a kelpie fix &#128526;


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## Alec Swan (7 October 2017)

Clodagh said:



			How can you say such a thing? He has the face of a cherub!
		
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Yeah of course he has and so did Rasputin,  as a baby! 

Alec.


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## Moobli (8 October 2017)

ester said:



			*sings* 'I see trouble.... up ahead.... '
		
Click to expand...




Clodagh said:



			How can you say such a thing? He has the face of a cherub!
		
Click to expand...




Alec Swan said:



			Yeah of course he has and so did Rasputin,  as a baby! 

Alec.
		
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Hey you lot!!!


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## Moobli (8 October 2017)

Slightlyconfused said:



			&#55357;&#56845;&#55357;&#56845;&#55357;&#56845; 
You do realise that you will need to do a blog type post so you can keep us updated and i can get a kelpie fix &#55357;&#56846;
		
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I can try - although I am not great with words


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## DabDab (14 October 2017)

Oh only just seen this thread - please please do some training updates. I used to have a kelpie, didn't work him, just enjoyed his batty persona  
I trained him to do loads of wacky things though, he was great fun - a really bizarre combination of scared of his own shadow and phenomenally brave, daft as a brush but amazingly intelligent. All my other dogs have been terriers and it was an absolute delight to have a dog with perfect recall from 10 weeks old.


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## Moobli (14 October 2017)

Oh no.  Sorry to everyone who was looking forward to kelpie updates.  After some serious thought and long discussions with my OH, I have decided against this litter.  I was third in line for one of three boys and I really liked the two bold pups (and one in particular) but sod's law meant that the quiet boy was the one left.  I tried to convince myself it would be okay but kept having niggling doubts.  I let the breeder know as soon as I'd made my mind up so that she still had a few weeks to find an alternative home.


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## TheresaW (14 October 2017)

He is gorgeous, but looks a bit cheeky!

Just seen your update. Sorry to read that.


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## Clodagh (14 October 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Oh no.  Sorry to everyone who was looking forward to kelpie updates.  After some serious thought and long discussions with my OH, I have decided against this litter.  I was third in line for one of three boys and I really liked the two bold pups (and one in particular) but sod's law meant that the quiet boy was the one left.  I tried to convince myself it would be okay but kept having niggling doubts.  I let the breeder know as soon as I'd made my mind up so that she still had a few weeks to find an alternative home.
		
Click to expand...

That is a shame but you need to be delighted with the pup you have. Another one will be found soon, and we can all get our kelpie fix.


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## Moobli (14 October 2017)

Clodagh said:



			That is a shame but you need to be delighted with the pup you have. Another one will be found soon, and we can all get our kelpie fix. 

Click to expand...

Hmmm maybe.  After deciding against this wee chap it has made me question whether I actually want another dog right now, and whether a kelpie is right for us as a working dog.  I may just stick to my shepherds and work one or two of hubby's collies when need be.  

We'll see.


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## Alec Swan (14 October 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Oh no.  Sorry to everyone who was looking forward to kelpie updates.  After some serious thought and long discussions with my OH, I have decided against this litter.  I was third in line for one of three boys and I really liked the two bold pups (and one in particular) but sod's law meant that the quiet boy was the one left.  I tried to convince myself it would be okay but kept having niggling doubts.  I let the breeder know as soon as I'd made my mind up so that she still had a few weeks to find an alternative home.
		
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You did the right thing.  When there are doubts,  it's best to leave them where they are &#8212;&#8212; even if they do go on to win the Nationals! 

Alec.


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## Moobli (14 October 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			You did the right thing.  When there are doubts,  it's best to leave them where they are &#8212;&#8212; even if they do go on to win the Nationals! 

Alec.
		
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I totally agree Alec, thanks.


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## Slightlyconfused (24 October 2017)

Clodagh said:



			That is a shame but you need to be delighted with the pup you have. Another one will be found soon, and we can all get our kelpie fix. 

Click to expand...

Yep this


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## Alec Swan (24 October 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			After discussion and debate .... &#8230;&#8230;..

















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It's puppies,  isn't it?  It's the appeal that they hold and I'll admit to the weakness &#8230;. BUT,  they become dogs,  adults and just as you I'm quite certain,  I've never looked at a puppy and thought any less than 'forever'.

I was wondering what troubled me about your pics &#8230;. and now I know.

Alec.


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## Moobli (25 October 2017)

It has been surprising how many friends have said they are glad I didn't go ahead with the kelpie pup - and I think it is because they know I am a shepherd and collie girl at heart.  Had I brought this pup home, of course I would have kept and loved him for the entirety of his life (you are right, my dogs are always 'forever' too) but there may have always been a doubt somewhere about whether I did the right thing.  Puppies definitely do something to one's heartstrings that nothing else can.

No doubt he will go on to have a wonderful life with someone else and I have no regrets.


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