# Nocton Super Dairy



## martlin (18 November 2010)

http://www.farmersguardian.com/home...press-ahead-with-8000-cow-dairy/35638.article

It looks like it is going to go ahead after all, any thoughts?


----------



## Tinkerbee (18 November 2010)

The public want cheap food and they will rant and whine and moan if they can't have it.
We are working on limited space and this dairy will certainly be efficient...

I can't say I like the idea, but if welfare is paramount, I think it is something we will be seeing more of.


----------



## martlin (18 November 2010)

I have mixed feelings about it, one one hand, I really don't like the idea of zero-grazers, on the other hand, the modern Friesian bred for the size of udder with legs struggling to support its weight... maybe they are better off without loads of walking
I can see the economic argument, as much as I hate it, that's the reality.


----------



## Louisa245 (18 November 2010)

I think the public are very much blinded about where and how food comes about, Dairy farming as it is does not make money so something has to change..
Nocton dairies cant afford for it to go wrong as it's on such a large scale if you look at the plans for  the set up it is pretty impressive.


----------



## Millyard Rejects (18 November 2010)

How can welfare be paramount if its natural behaviour-grazing is reduced? and I dont just mean eating grass! i mean the whole thing,moving around, interacting with other animals?

I see small scale farming locally and see the farmers putting in a heck of a lot of work and checking their animals and "knowing" their animals. I cant see how a place of this scale can do that same observation of their animals? unless they are going down the root of some hi tech places that have every animal tagged so it its movements and behaviours are monitored by computer?
And the pro active trimming and worming etc systems that seem to be the rage?

Call me old fashioned( or a bunny hugger!) but i like seeing the cows in the fields eating grass, I dont mind the seasonal wiffy smell coming from the land and I certainly prefer to know the milk I drink  and the beef I eat has come from a more natural way of producing them!  IMHO


----------



## martlin (18 November 2010)

In the ideal world (my ideal world that is) we would move away from super dairy cows like the Fresians/Holsteins and go back a step to dual purpose milkers, some traditional native breeds etc... they produce just as much milk over lifetime as a super-fresian, unfortunately, not enough yearly yield...
The thing is, the welfare is compromised whichever way you go about it - the extensively graze cows have miles to walk every day on their feet that are not up to carrying them and the zero-grazers are, well, zero grazing!
A pint of milk would have to cost much more in my ideal world...


----------



## Millyard Rejects (18 November 2010)

My landlord is a butcher so you can guess what he breeds cattle for!
He has charolais,limisouin? simmentals. And they seem well...feral? 
Did work for guy in UK that had friesans but they seemed quieter?

Ive always liked the look of jerseys but I take it they arent the best meat beasts? so i your ideal world what would u suggest for the smallholder that might want to rear their own and milk their own??


----------



## martlin (18 November 2010)

You are not allowed to milk your own nowadays... you need an automated milking parlour, but that aside...
Jerseys are a milk breed, really, but I do like them, too.
If you could tame dexters, they are pretty good milkers and lovely beef animals. I have British Whites, just about dual purpose... Angus is pretty milky.
Charolais, Limousin, Simmies are feral, because they are beef animals and they are not handled as much as Friesians.
In fact, the rule saying that you can't keep a dairy breed bull in a field with a footpath says a lot about the breeds' character, doesn't it?
The problem is doubled by the fact that, especially Limousans (imported to UK as quiet, easy breeders) have been bred in UK for years for one trait only - the double muscle, with no consideration of wider conformation or temperament, or even the ease of calving... they became feral and bonkers due to the breeding policy.


----------



## Millyard Rejects (19 November 2010)

martlin said:



			You are not allowed to milk your own nowadays... you need an automated milking parlour,how come? what if you only have 2 cows?
Charolais, Limousin, Simmies are feral, because they are beef animals and they are not handled as much as Friesians. the charolais bull and cows live in same field as my ponios! well they did till today all got split up so horses can be fed horse food and the cattle can have the pellets and barley! and the shetland could stop getting into arguments with the calves! but the limi cow in the same field when she calved she jumped out of a crush and over a vw polo! now if only the ponies could jump like that!
In fact, the rule saying that you can't keep a dairy breed bull in a field with a footpath says a lot about the breeds' character, doesn't it?
 lordy! and i walk through the fields everyday with the charolais lad! mind i do stick to the edge and i know where the trees are if needed!.
		
Click to expand...

whats the rules on horns on the buggers?


----------



## YorksG (19 November 2010)

Many many years ago, there was the introduction of the huge pig fatterners, with piglets weaned at approximately 2 weeks (if my memory serves me correctly) and I visited such a place, where the piglets were kept in wire trays . While we were there one got its leg through the wire and screamed the place down. It was a fairly horrific place. I was at that point studying for a rural science degree, so not under too many illusions about where meat came from! 
I worry about the intensivisation of meat production and feel very queasy about the intensivisation of milk production.
With regard to temprement, the South Devon bulls (beef) who used to live on the local farm were three of the most polite gents you could hope to meet. They did regulalry go for a walk, having leant on the gate, and were always pleased to see people. They were sadly killed when 'animal rights' protesters set fire to the barn they lived in. They were wrongly targeted when said people were trying to burn the battery sheds for the hens.
Met some rather angry Ayeshires though  they had destroyed the bull pen.
The progeny testing centre (York) had bulls of many breeds, who were all treated with a certain amount of cirumspect respect, we were told that the dangerous ones were the quiet ones as they were the ones that people took liberties with


----------



## martlin (19 November 2010)

You just can't milk them if you have 2, or rather you can, but you can't sell the milk!

There are no rules on horns as such, apart from transport and housing in sheds - you are not supposed to mixed horned and polled then.
I have a simple 'no horns anywhere' rule 

I suppose in the real world (not the ideal one of mine), we need to accept that Joe Public wants cheap milk - the only way to sustain the industry and deliver cheap milk is economy of scale... Super dairies are the way forward. Either that or the milk needs to be more expensive.
You average black-and-white gives about 12K litres of milk per cycle (10 months) and it gets milked for 5-6 years. Your average dual purpose cow gives 6-7K litres per cycle and gets milked for 10 years or more. So, over lifetime it comes to the same, BUT your overheads as a farmer mean that you need the 12K litres per cycle or you will not make any money...
Then there is welfare - cows should be in fields and walk for milking 2-3 times a day, but not if the size of their udder and the lack of muscle anywhere else makes it barely possible to walk  So in that light, the loafing sand paddocks close to the milking parlour are a good thing. Not that this sort of cow should have been bred in the first place
There is an argument that the welfare in a super dairy is actually higher of standard, because of number of staff and vets on site, cleanness of loafing paddocks etc.

Then there is TB... Lincolnshire is a TB free area, how will importing 8000 cows impact that?

I'm quite uncomfortable with all this, I mean, my world is normally fairly black and white - I rarely have a problem establishing if something is against my principles. This one is a toughy.


----------



## EAST KENT (19 November 2010)

Horrible concept of how to use/abuse animals for profit.My favourites are Jerseys,as a child we lived beside a farm with a herd of these gentle little cows.I knew every one of them by name..cows had NAMES then..and who their mums were as well.Jersey bulls though..very dangerous little gentlemen.They are the ones led by a handler on each side! I think most of us were very grateful when the MMB helped out with the AI scheme.


----------



## KitKat_89 (19 November 2010)

I fear the super-dairies may be inevitable, and whilst I can see the business sense of it and accept that the welfare standards (if you dont count access to grazing) will be high, I feel inately uncomfortable about it. It is not something I want to see in the UK.

 Martlin, I'm afraid you overestimate the capabilities of the modern holstein - The average cow now lasts for less than 3 lactations, so will have been culled by the age of 5-6  

I met a farmer recently who has a very nice appraoch to dairying, his main focus was not on the yield per cow, but the costs needed to produce each litre of milk. He was using cross-bred cows on extensive grazing and making a decent (for a dairy farm) profit from yields of only 5-6k litres per lactation. It is a shame more farmers do not or are not able to operate on a similar system.....


----------



## martlin (19 November 2010)

KitKat_89 said:



			I met a farmer recently who has a very nice appraoch to dairying, his main focus was not on the yield per cow, but the costs needed to produce each litre of milk. He was using cross-bred cows on extensive grazing and making a decent (for a dairy farm) profit from yields of only 5-6k litres per lactation. It is a shame more farmers do not or are not able to operate on a similar system.....
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, this scenario is possible in only very limited circumstances - you need to own the land outright or nearly so, the quality of grazing needs to be very good, you need to be able to rely on family members as workforce.
Then there is the risks: not fulfilling your dairy contract costs money; too much butterfat costs you money (perversely, the more watery the milk, the better the money you make - the friesians supply it already semi-skimmed). Basically, you need an awful lot of milk every month to just cover your fixed costs, so a herd of cross-bred extensive grazers might be possible in Wales, where the land is relatively cheap and available, but try to get one in the Midlands or even worse - in South East


----------



## KitKat_89 (19 November 2010)

martlin said:



			Unfortunately, this scenario is possible in only very limited circumstances - you need to own the land outright or nearly so, the quality of grazing needs to be very good, you need to be able to rely on family members as workforce.
Then there is the risks: not fulfilling your dairy contract costs money; too much butterfat costs you money (perversely, the more watery the milk, the better the money you make - the friesians supply it already semi-skimmed). Basically, you need an awful lot of milk every month to just cover your fixed costs, so a herd of cross-bred extensive grazers might be possible in Wales, where the land is relatively cheap and available, but try to get one in the Midlands or even worse - in South East

Click to expand...


That was sort of my point..  Im sure that there are a few (2?) more herds who if they got thier land management right could move to this sort of system, but for almost everyone I know its not an option. It is a shame is all, as its a very 'nice' system to have  and how, in my 'ideal world' dairy cows would live 

ETA: I've never seen a contract where you are penalised for fat %, infact i thought it was the opposite.... is there a differance with the intended use of the milk? (Most of the milk in wales does got to cheese/butter not liquid).


----------



## Orangehorse (19 November 2010)

Unfortunately the sort of dairy farms that everyone has in their minds are going out of business week by week.  There used to be 6 dairy farms within 2-3 miles of here, now there are none.

There are already very large dairy units in the UK, what is novel about Nocton is that is on a green field site so needed to go to planning as a completely new build, most of the others have simply grown up around the original dairy unit.

The welfare standards will be very high, the cows will be well fed and well looked after, for as long as they are producing milk and calves.  The large size unit means there will be lots of staff available.  It is just the way things are, the unit cost of production is being driven downwards all the tiime and larger and larger units is the way to go with all farming, unless you go the other way and aim for organic production.  You could say that organic price is the "correct" price of farm produce, but supermarkets advertise themselves as being the cheapest; it is a cut throat business.

I am really sitting on the fence with this one, I can see boths sides of the story.


----------



## Brownmare (19 November 2010)

Until people are prepared to pay more for their milk these super dairies will be the best (only?) way for dairy farmers to make a living. I believe some of the supermarkets have pledged not to buy milk from Nocton but surely this means they will simply import milk to meet demand and this cannot be a good thing.

To put across another side to the argument, I have seen small family run dairy farms where the welfare of the cows is severely compromised by poor housing / badly maintained tracks / an ageing farmer who cannot afford to employ help. I'm not saying that this means super dairies are better just that we (as consumers) have forced British dairy farmers to make this choice and we should evaluate our own choices before criticising them.

Martlin - as I understand it the only barrier to selling your own milk is pasteurisation. It is now basically impossible to sell unpasteurised milk no matter whether you milk by hand or machine (and you can get neat little portable milking machines that just make me want to get a house cow )


----------



## martlin (20 November 2010)

Brownmare said:



			Martlin - as I understand it the only barrier to selling your own milk is pasteurisation. It is now basically impossible to sell unpasteurised milk no matter whether you milk by hand or machine (and you can get neat little portable milking machines that just make me want to get a house cow )
		
Click to expand...

In theory, you are right, but in practice, the only way of selling your milk is to a dairy... no dairy will take hand milked milk, not to mention the quantities you would produce from a few cows. The only other option is own processing plant, which wouldn't be financially viable with just a few cows


----------



## firm (20 November 2010)

Slightly off topic unless this super dairy persuades us all to buy Organic milk  but have you seen the Yeo vallet advert which can be downloaded now  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOHAUvbuV4o


----------



## tristar (20 November 2010)

i would be glad to pay more for milk i don't use much because i think dairy is not good for the health, already cows are subjected to total exploitation and what i consider to be inhumane treatment, to separate a newly calved cow from its calf is emotional cruelty, to go further and deny them their living creature right to walk around and browse and graze to feel the sun on their backs  and the mental stimulation of seeing the outdoor world is unacceptable, if they can't walk very well they should breed them so their feet are improved, after all the milk yield has been improved by selective breeding so why no the feet and the ability to move around.
i thought in this day and age is was possible to make life better not worse.


----------



## AndySpooner (20 November 2010)

I used to be a herdsman in the 1970's when the Holstien was first making an appearance. The British dairy industry seemed to go down hill from there.

I didn't like these cattle even though they gave massive yields. They ate an awful lot of hard feed though. 

The calves were worth nothing here unless you exported them for the veal trade. I don't agree with live exports, so not keen on that.

The British Fresian bull calves were worth about £100 then, and you had to sell a lot milk to make that up.

Looking back, nearly everything I was taught and the systems that were encouraged have turned out to be bad for the farmer, bad for the livestock and bad for the industry.


----------



## KitKat_89 (20 November 2010)

Tristar I have to admit to agreeing with you. For all the vegetarians out there, I think they would be better off with a lamb chop than a pint of milk if welfare is thier concern.

To respond to your point, it is the selection for higher yields that has largely led to the rise in lameness and health problems now seen. Over-selection for yield at the expense of all else works against selection for foot comformation and fertility ect, although this is something some in the industry have started to address.


----------



## soloequestrian (20 November 2010)

KitKat_89 said:



			I met a farmer recently who has a very nice appraoch to dairying, his main focus was not on the yield per cow, but the costs needed to produce each litre of milk. He was using cross-bred cows on extensive grazing and making a decent (for a dairy farm) profit from yields of only 5-6k litres per lactation. It is a shame more farmers do not or are not able to operate on a similar system.....
		
Click to expand...

Does he produce organic milk?  If not, presumably the milk just goes into the system with all the stuff from lower welfare farms and so there is no way a consumer can make the choice to buy milk from this kind of system.
I try to buy organic milk because as far as I know the producers use less 'extreme' cows, but a) I may be wrong about that and b) sometimes it's quite difficult - our local Co-op doesn't stock organic.
Consumer pressure seems to be working well for things like eggs, but it's quite difficult to exert any pressure when it comes to milk.


----------



## KitKat_89 (20 November 2010)

No, the farmer is not organic. I see your point. The only choice consumers have is if to buy british or organic unless they have the option of a doorstep service. I think the industry has gone so far towards intensive farming there is no way back now though. At least until the oil runs out! 

Organic will be better welfare in one sense - they are subject to lower stocking densities and I think the cows have to have access to grazing. Many organic producers will still be using the holstein type or holstein cross cow but they will have to pay better attention to breeding for health traits otherwise they would never meet organic standards due to the vet care (drugs) and welfare implications.


----------



## hobo (20 November 2010)

I've held of commenting so far because I have so much I could say and can only type with one finger. The main points are that is not the size that matters but what you do with it!  
Organic farmers are NOT better that standard farmers.
It is all down to the individual farmer, workers ect.
My qualifactions to comment are that we have 110 holstein cows looked after to the highest standards and we wouldn't let the local Organic farmers any were near them.
They give over 10,000lts are fertile can canter around the fields on their good feet and legs with their tidy udders. To do this means we live and breath cows taking great care to their every need, we couldn't do this with more cows but with the right team and the right setup it can be done.


----------



## EAST KENT (20 November 2010)

hobo said:



			I've held of commenting so far because I have so much I could say and can only type with one finger. The main points are that is not the size that matters but what you do with it!  
Organic farmers are NOT better that standard farmers.
It is all down to the individual farmer, workers ect.
My qualifactions to comment are that we have 110 holstein cows looked after to the highest standards and we wouldn't let the local Organic farmers any were near them.
They give over 10,000lts are fertile can canter around the fields on their good feet and legs with their tidy udders. To do this means we live and breath cows taking great care to their every need, we couldn't do this with more cows but with the right team and the right setup it can be done.
		
Click to expand...

 How many years do your cows last until "burn out"?


----------



## DragonSlayer (20 November 2010)

Well, I know the locals are up in arms about it, but apparently it has been promised that traffic WON'T go through the village.....

It's not a big village after all, with terrible bends, would do MY swede in having big tankers thundering through at all hours....

Even the halved amount makes one worry.....what the heck will they do with all the slurry? There was talk about using it as fuel for power stations or similar.....but who knows....


----------



## soloequestrian (20 November 2010)

hobo said:



			I've held of commenting so far because I have so much I could say and can only type with one finger. The main points are that is not the size that matters but what you do with it!  
Organic farmers are NOT better that standard farmers.
It is all down to the individual farmer, workers ect.
My qualifactions to comment are that we have 110 holstein cows looked after to the highest standards and we wouldn't let the local Organic farmers any were near them.
They give over 10,000lts are fertile can canter around the fields on their good feet and legs with their tidy udders. To do this means we live and breath cows taking great care to their every need, we couldn't do this with more cows but with the right team and the right setup it can be done.
		
Click to expand...

So as consumers, how can we support farms like yours and discriminate against those with poor welfare?


----------



## lizzie_liz (20 November 2010)

I don't agree with super dairy's and ideally would like my milk to come from cows who have had access to grazing etc. 

I was sat in a radio audience the other day to do with Scotlands land use and we were asked if we knew how much it cost to produce a pint of milk. Only about 6 people out of 100 knew the answer, this room was 2/3's full of people in tweed. So maybe we all need educated in how much it costs for milk to be produced. I would be happy to pay more for milk if it meant farmers were paid enough to cover costs and earn a bit on top. For this to happen it would require all supermarkets to get behind this idea.


----------



## Millyard Rejects (20 November 2010)

DragonSlayer said:



			Well, I know the locals are up in arms about it, but apparently it has been promised that traffic WON'T go through the village...
		
Click to expand...

As a side thought... what about al the lights that would be on ( thinking that inside sheds they often leave lights and heat lamps on to lengthen the "day")and the machinery noise from the milking machines? how will they effect the locals?


----------



## DragonSlayer (20 November 2010)

By all accounts they are 'assured' these issues will not be noticed, but then, no-one will find out until it's in operation, will they?

It's going to be down on the Fen, away from the main village....but if the wind is blowing the wrong way, I guess the issue might be the smell as well!


----------



## EAST KENT (20 November 2010)

Crumbs..there`ll be an awful lot of slurry ..where is THAT all going?


----------



## DragonSlayer (20 November 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			Crumbs..there`ll be an awful lot of slurry ..where is THAT all going?
		
Click to expand...

The answer to that is halfway down this page!

http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk...se-Nocton/article-2909548-detail/article.html


----------



## Millyard Rejects (20 November 2010)

Interesting point in that article DS- that neither of the men applying for this planning live in the area??

So could I apply to build my dream home on the Yorkshire Moors while I still live in Ireland for the rest of the year???


----------



## DragonSlayer (20 November 2010)

Of course they don't live in this area, they won't be able to stand the smell and noise!!

Haha!


----------



## hobo (20 November 2010)

Just a reply to East kent our cows our cows don't burn out we will deside not to breed from them when right for that cow and when ready they get sent direct to the nearest slaughter house they will be varius ages just like horses.
Solo Equest the way that milk can be sold means you can't support our way more than any other way much as we wish you could.


----------



## martlin (20 November 2010)

As far as I know, they chose Lincolnshire because of a few things:
price and availability of land
flat - easy development
TB free area
I don't think it had anything to do with living next door or not.
My opinion is that if a super dairy is OK, it's OK to build it next door to me. If it isn't OK, it isn't OK anywhere. Basically, I don't suffer from a bout of 'not-in-my-back-yard-itis'

The site is in the sticks, I would imagine the noise and light pollution isn't any worse than, let's say A17.

It's the ethical (from lack of a better word) aspect that concerns me... not necessarily healthwise, more the issue of a zero-grazers.

KitKat89, the *average* black-and-white in an *average* size dairy herd lasts around 5-6 lactations. 2-3 is on one end of the spectrum (very large units); on the other are farmers still milking 12yo cows


----------



## tristar (21 November 2010)

thank you hobo for that reassurance of what it can be like,  i hear heard that 7 lactations was the average, this in an animal i believe has a natural lifespan of 30 years?


----------



## EAST KENT (21 November 2010)

hobo said:



			Just a reply to East kent our cows our cows don't burn out we will deside not to breed from them when right for that cow and when ready they get sent direct to the nearest slaughter house they will be varius ages just like horses.
Solo Equest the way that milk can be sold means you can't support our way more than any other way much as we wish you could.
		
Click to expand...

Still curious as to how many lactations your herd manages ,on average,before "you decide" not to breed them again.Answer??


----------



## Alec Swan (21 November 2010)

martlin,

your interesting posts come,  I suspect,  from a degree of experience.  An interesting thread.

Alec.


----------



## SusieT (21 November 2010)

Realistically, I woudl rather see a new large facility in that has lots of planning behind it than many of the  older parlours and housing (many of which are too short for the modern dairy cow) with grazing. In a large facility such as this the walkways will be optimal for good foot conditions, and the housing large enough that each animal can wander if they so desire. A dairy cows life is made up of lying down (cubicles-need to be comfortable. If they're not comfortable they don't lie correctly in them), eating which can be grass or silage and milking, which can take up a couple of hours of the day if not mroe. In a big well designed system the animal will spend less time standing in sub optimal conditions waiting to be milked and then waiting to go back to cubicles.
I would hope (haven't seen the plans) there is an outside yard, most of the new larger famrs have this where the cows can go and stand outside. Beyond this, if the cows never know what they're missing, I have seen very happy cows in large systems. I have seen dirty, lame cows in old housing systems (majority of cows come in over winter) and good cows in old systems. I have yet to see dirty, lame cows in new build farms under good management (which is all the ones I've seen) as the facilities are far better.
If anyone saw that programme on teh American large farm, it looked brilliant.
ETS-regarding the intensified pig production being compared to the dairy, it's nothing like it. A sick/lame/badly treated dairy cow will not produce as much milk, whereas a pig is very fertile and only has to churn out litters. I despise intensive pig farming, intensive dairy farming is nothing like it, the animals can always get up and walk around, they generally have access to ad lib food etc. etc.


----------



## hobo (21 November 2010)

Not avoiding your question East kent but haven't worked out proper average but we have a folder full of certificates of their production awards most cows min 5 lacs up to 8 lacs but you will always have the odd one that only does a couple. I would have to take out of the averages of all the cows that are KILLED by the government for failling a TB test that when postmortemed DO NOT HAVE TB.
I have had 4 horses before my current mare and foal . 2 got to 25, 1 got to 21, and one got to 5, so that pulls done the average age they have lasted.
SusieT says a lot of good points which is what I said at the begining it is not the size but what you do with it.
I won't add any more but anyone is always welcome to come and see how our dairy farm is run.


----------



## martlin (21 November 2010)

Alec, thanks for your appreciation 

SusieT, I can kind of see your point, but it saddens me in parts.
Yes, modern dairy cow spends a lot of time lying down, ever wondered why? Because the way it is put together doesn't allow it to stand up and walk around much, and we are responsible for it Its feet are not up to its weight and its pelvis is struggling to keep the udder up... 
There are supposed to be loafing paddocks with sand provided at Nocton, so yes, they will have access to the outdoors.


----------



## EAST KENT (22 November 2010)

hobo said:



			Not avoiding your question East kent but haven't worked out proper average but we have a folder full of certificates of their production awards most cows min 5 lacs up to 8 lacs but you will always have the odd one that only does a couple. I would have to take out of the averages of all the cows that are KILLED by the government for failling a TB test that when postmortemed DO NOT HAVE TB.
I have had 4 horses before my current mare and foal . 2 got to 25, 1 got to 21, and one got to 5, so that pulls done the average age they have lasted.
SusieT says a lot of good points which is what I said at the begining it is not the size but what you do with it.
I won't add any more but anyone is always welcome to come and see how our dairy farm is run.
		
Click to expand...

Oh that`s better than average is`nt it? So quite a few get to eight or nine years old ?As to the TB thing..why can the National Herd not  be vaccinated???That is the bit I don`t get..you have a disease ,a vax available..but instead all reactors are slaughtered and badgers murdered as the culprets as well.Don`t get it. Again,with F@M..vax available,why not ring fence so many miles by vaxing instead of waiting till it spreads and killing millions.Lack of forethought and understanding of disease control methods available springs to mind.


----------



## hobo (22 November 2010)

EastKent add 2-3yrs to lac numbers so most go over 10 years in the breed book there are quite a few farms big and small that have 10+lacs but you are getting to the top end then cows probably 14years old than.
As to the TB I wish I did understand what the govenment get upto but that is a whole different debate. Luckly I haven't had to chain myself to the gate to protect some favorite cows yet, I don't understand why we can't vaccinate.

Well Martlin you got plenty of discussion going well done.


----------



## Millyard Rejects (22 November 2010)

hobo said:



			EastKent add 2-3yrs to lac numbers so most go over 10 years in the breed book there are quite a few farms big and small that have 10+lacs but you are getting to the top end then cows probably 14years old than.
As to the TB I wish I did understand what the govenment get upto but that is a whole different debate. Luckly I haven't had to chain myself to the gate to protect some favorite cows yet, I don't understand why we can't vaccinate.

Well Martlin you got plenty of discussion going well done.
		
Click to expand...

Whats the average age then of a breeding cow of meat animals Would that be older?
And TB- same old catch 22 if vaccinate the herd then herd shows positive in tb test then tb test would be defunct and government cant claim the money back from drug companies?
Isnt it the case that vaccinating is cheaper than the tb test itself so the government would be out of pocket? Or so I was led to believe!


----------



## martlin (22 November 2010)

Millyard Rejects said:



			Whats the average age then of a breeding cow of meat animals Would that be older?
		
Click to expand...

Depends on breed, the native, traditionals breed quite easily in their mid teens.


----------



## lizness (22 November 2010)

I think that a lot of people opposed to this are looking at this in a very idealistic way. farming is a business, it needs to produce money therefore be run efficiantly.

 Therefore as a cow gets older it produced less milk and takes longer to get in calf with the very low price farmers get for milk and the high price of feed it is not economical to keep older cows. My OH's farm have a relatively high herd average age but would be more efficiant if older cows were culled.

My OH runs a family dairy herd with 50 milking cows at a time these go out 6months a year. It is near impossible to put them out for any longer in the north as it is wet. Consider the mess your horses make of fields then times it by 60. However they go out for 6months a year which is lovely and they are much better out.

Those critising keeping cows in whether it is all year should maybe consider the conditions, cows are kept in a herd enviromnt they can interact with othert cows all the time have free access to food and water and shelter in very clean environments they may not be able to run around but can have a good wander. In comparison to the normal horse is this so bad?

Dairy farmers have no protection. When dairy farmers of Britain went bust a lot of farmers lost at least two months pay for milk and a lot lost money tied up in shares. The government offered no help with this (i think anyway!) compare this with the banks.

Responsibility has to be taken by the supermarkets, there was a very interesting article in a magazine and can't find the figures about how the price has changed and how this has reflected on the price given to the processesor and farmer, farmer price did not reflect very much on the retail price

Excuse the essay, in conclusion whilst no-one regulates milk prices and encourages milk production more and more super dairies will appear and more and more family farms will close down.


----------



## firm (22 November 2010)

How come then New Zealand can keep their animals outside, not recieve much/any  subsidy and export their free range Anchor butter, lamb etc overhere and be so competitive?   Educate me, as not having a go, just wondering 'cos that is what I read in the press?


----------



## martlin (22 November 2010)

Lizness - I can assure you that I am firmly based in reality Our cattle do come in for the winter, they are still out now, but will have to be in next week probably. I don't think we could take it financially if they were in for 6 months, though.
Firm - I have no idea, don't know enough about New Zealand's farming to feel qualified to comment. I do, however, believe that we should buy British wherever and whenever possible, if the consumer doesn't support British farming, nobody else will.

A word on Single Farm Payment for me - I would be more than happy to forego my subsidy, on the condition that I get paid for my beef and lamb more than it actually costs to produce it, because as it is atm, SFP is the only thing that keeps our heads over water - that and a real job each


----------



## EAST KENT (22 November 2010)

firm said:



			How come then New Zealand can keep their animals outside, not recieve much/any  subsidy and export their free range Anchor butter, lamb etc overhere and be so competitive?   Educate me, as not having a go, just wondering 'cos that is what I read in the press?
		
Click to expand...

As I understand it the cattle are out all year,there is a far longer grass growing season there.The milking equipment is mobile so it goes to the cows,not as we do,our way creating muddy wet tracks.Channel Island breeds are still used in NZ,with their higher butterfats.We battle the weather here,so cows are mostly in for six months ..that costs! Our costs with year round green grass would result in competitive products as well.Right now our farmers struggle with the climate and a totally unsupportive Defra.
  I am so glad Hobo`s girls live longer,I had almost thought all milkers burnt out after three or four lactations..not a pleasant thought if you are someone who loves cows..esp Jerseys!


----------



## lizness (23 November 2010)

Is it maybe drier out there is also a much larger country than england with i expect much lower land prices? Also they maybve get aid properly for their milk?


----------



## Angelbones (25 November 2010)

...sitting here with nothing to contribute at all as I know sod all about any of it ....

BUT I want to know all the stuff that Martlin knows, I'm jealous


----------



## martlin (25 November 2010)

Angelbones said:



			BUT I want to know all the stuff that Martlin knows, I'm jealous

Click to expand...

I'm not quite sure how to take it, but I will assume it is a complement and say thanks  I do a lot of reading... and remembering random stuff, too


----------



## mon (25 November 2010)

on the whole our welfare is one of the best in the world, NZ is no better than ours cows tails docked, sheep not as well shepherded left to lamb on own less assistance with difficult births etc so farmers 'manage' much larger herds flocks than we do so less wae per kg meat or litre milk and not housed so great savins there, I never buy foreign if there is a good english equivelent, and who woul complain if the dairy farm at nocton were on several different holdings?


----------



## EAST KENT (26 November 2010)

mon said:



			on the whole our welfare is one of the best in the world, NZ is no better than ours cows tails docked, sheep not as well shepherded left to lamb on own less assistance with difficult births etc so farmers 'manage' much larger herds flocks than we do so less wae per kg meat or litre milk and not housed so great savins there, I never buy foreign if there is a good english equivelent, and who woul complain if the dairy farm at nocton were on several different holdings?
		
Click to expand...

Why would anyone DOCK a cow???


----------



## mon (26 November 2010)

to stop the swish hair getting dirty and attracting flies and hitting milkers around head at milking time.


----------



## Berpisc (27 November 2010)

^ Blimey! I used to wear a hat....


----------



## brighteyes (27 November 2010)

^ lots more flies in NZ?


----------



## Tiggy1 (28 November 2010)

Martlin with you regards to SPS.
As to superdairy really don't like them.
Cows should be outside, sun on backs scratching etc etc.
Understand that conformation lets them down but we made them that way


----------



## Alec Swan (30 November 2010)

mon said:



			on the whole our welfare is one of the best in the world, NZ is no better than ours cows tails docked, sheep not as well shepherded left to lamb on own less assistance with difficult births etc. .......
		
Click to expand...

mon,

In this country,  and certainly with purebred and pedigree sheep,  we have tended to retain the ewe lambs for breeding which needed assistance at birth.  Those ewe lambs will,  in turn,  be far more likely to also need assistance.  We are,  so often,  producing sheep which can't manage on their own.  With the commercial pressures which those who farm sheep,  are under,  a dead lamb will possibly mean that a ewe has been kept for a year,  with no financial return.

In NZ,  on the other hand,  they've accepted the initial losses,  they've bred from sheep which generally manage on their own,  and which by and large they do.

When I lambed indoors,  the ewe lambs,  which were born unaided,  would have a notch taken from the ear at birth,  and retained.  Within 15 generations,  birthing assistance was rarely needed.

Alec.


----------



## mon (30 November 2010)

Well I was fed up of English bred Suffolk rams going downhill fast so went and bought a New Zealand strain suffolk ram lamb doesn,t carry meat of english lines but certainly randy and hopefuly less assistance required wit the offspring intend to keep alot of his ewelambs, we also trying a beltex which expect more assistance, but as better conformation should pay which line o we go down, we lamb 600 ewes.


----------



## martlin (30 November 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			mon,

In this country,  and certainly with purebred and pedigree sheep,  we have tended to retain the ewe lambs for breeding which needed assistance at birth.  Those ewe lambs will,  in turn,  be far more likely to also need assistance.  We are,  so often,  producing sheep which can't manage on their own.  With the commercial pressures which those who farm sheep,  are under,  a dead lamb will possibly mean that a ewe has been kept for a year,  with no financial return.

In NZ,  on the other hand,  they've accepted the initial losses,  they've bred from sheep which generally manage on their own,  and which by and large they do.

When I lambed indoors,  the ewe lambs,  which were born unaided,  would have a notch taken from the ear at birth,  and retained.  Within 15 generations,  birthing assistance was rarely needed.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

It's quite interesting how the British became specialist in selective breeding for one trait only... Take Limousin cattle for example, they were brought in as sedate and easy calvers, few generations down the line, they have huge double muscle, but are mad as hatters
I don't keep any ewes that are a bother to lamb, or the ones that show not enough interest in their offspring, or ones that are stroppy - if something is problematic, it goes on a kebab run or sometimes to Newark as cull ewes, you would be amazed at the amount of times some clever clogs decides to buy a pen of my culls for breeding


----------



## Alec Swan (30 November 2010)

mon said:



			Well I was fed up of English bred Suffolk rams going downhill fast so went and bought a New Zealand strain suffolk ram lamb doesn,t carry meat of english lines but certainly randy and hopefuly less assistance required wit the offspring intend to keep alot of his ewelambs, we also trying a beltex which expect more assistance, but as better conformation should pay which line o we go down, we lamb 600 ewes.
		
Click to expand...

The problem with most commercially produced tups,  is that to "promote" them,  they have grub shoved in,  from both ends,  so that as shearlings there growth has,  generally,  reached its optimum.  The shearling tup,  which looks magnificent,  because he's been fed and for every day of his life,  will melt away if you stop feeding.  That's not what I call a sheep!

Beltex?  I'm not really sure what to say!!  Many will use them as terminal sires,  but I suspect that at some stage through their development,  a pig was introduced!  I realise that beauty is in the eye of the beholder,  but I couldn't look at an ugly sheep,  every day.  I bet that lambing out with a Beltex ewe would be a disaster,  though where they are native,  they probably manage very well.  Don't know!!

Which leads us neatly,  on to Martlins comments.  When we import foreign breeds of animals,  and Limies and Canadian Angus cattle are two examples,  and then we start to apply an altered emphasis,  upon them,  then why does it come as such a surprise when we find them so difficult to manage?

Pure bred heifers are worth considerably more alive than dead.  Unsuitable heifers,  or shearling ewes for that matter,  are being sold for breeding purposes.  I suppose that it's a case of caveat emptor!!

Alec.


----------



## mon (30 November 2010)

the NZ Suffolk breeders kept a diary of all lambings and showed me that any serious lambings not kept for breeding not force fed meant to be more worm resistant and better feet, I admit that when i got him home hubby thought i had gone mad but waiting till offspring born to see, agree on beltex hubby wanted him and wouldn't put him on ewelambs, i do like charolais but getting too much in dams as keep own multiple born females.


----------

