# Nervous horses - can they ever get 'normal'?! sorry - ridiculously long...



## Morgan123 (22 April 2010)

Any success stories to cheer me up?!? Am at my wits end with my lovely welsh cob...

i'm not sure about his start in life, but i don't think it was all that positive. he was then sent for breaking to an argentinean guy who uses all the oldschool methods including hobbling, tying legs to tails etc etc - complete domainance stuff basically. I started part loaning said horse for a bit and he was very spoooky, green but wiht basically nice paces and there was something i really liked about him, though he was obviously terrified of everything - saddle, bridle, brushes, and in partiuclar the argentinean guy of course.

so, then he came up for sale and as i got on wiht him (and loads of other people had fallen off with various injuries, while i'd been lucky enough to stick on!), i was offered £700 off thre price. i took him - he was six at the time - and we're now three years on.

Obviously when i bought him i knew he had issues, and really i just wanted to have some fun with him and for both of us to enjoy life. i never expected miracles from him of that he's turn into a bombproof competition horse or anything, but thought we could certainly have some fun and that would be all good. Anyway, we had lots of ups and downs over a few years but basically survived, but he still always looked like i was going to kill him when i went to tack up etc, won't wear rugs, that kind of thing. Also, he never seemed to really enjoy anything - doesn't get excited or happy jumping, hacking wiht others, awful hacking on his own and lazy schooling (lucky he's also quite lovable!!). Eventually i had a nasty fall which arose from then fact that he's basically never totally calm with me riding, so in September i decided to start again from scratch and re-back him.

He had ages off work, and i jsut spent time wiht him in the field, getting him used to the headcollar etc. i did everything slowly over weeks, when he was ready we spent time going into the yard, just having a feed and going out etc. I spent six months building up to getting on again (in the meanwhile showing him saddle, letting him find and eat a carrot i'd put in the stirrup for example and walking away) and so on until he was really relaxed wiht everything. When i got on him and we did some basics, he was fine and seemed more relaxed than before, and i really thought i was getting somewhere.

however, the more stuff i do (e.g. if i ride a few times a week) he just gets that really old haunted look in his eyes, and goes back to being spooky and stubborn and difficult becuase he's anxious. Then last week we had TWO scary headcollar experiences (i was carrying a rug in the field wiht a headcollar in and he took the leadrope in his teeth, freaked at the noise as it came out of the rug, bombed off down the field but wihtout letting go, so the headcolalr and rope were following him! Totally freaked and wouldn't let me near him for another 24 hours!!). Then another day when we'd made friends i was just leading him over fillers, he was fine and then suddenly freaked, pulled back and bombed off again terrified of lead rope monster following him...

anyway - now he is scared of me in the field again, even when i walk up with no headcollar or anything just to give him a carrot, and i'm back to square one - in fact worse i think!!! I honestly don't know what to do wiht him - it's not his fault he's scared but no matter what i do he just can't seem to let go of that basis of fear he has with people. in the field with other horses he's the absolute opposite, very bolshy and dominating, so i know this is just a people issue based on his experiences. 

It's got to the point where i'm not sure it's even fair for me to expect him to do a normal workload, because he obviously doesn't enjoy it and can't relax I'm just not sure what to do to help him, besides just letting him go to a loan home maybe where he can go for a plod round the roads twice a week or something and have nothing expected of him, or even jsut as a companion.

Anyone got any positive stories about genuinely nervous horses whihc have turned out ok in the end, and if so how on earth did you achieve it?!?

thansk and sorry this is soooo long...


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## galaxy (22 April 2010)

I bought an unbroken 4 yr old mare last summer.  When I went to see her, when I even put my hand out to stroke her, her legs just quivered, she looked like she was going to lay down.  The girl who was handling her could lead her and do most things with her, but she was only halter broken.  She has never been beaten or anything like that, it is just her nature (her breeder/person I bought her off I met on here, so I can say that with 100% certainty).

When I got her home I left her just in a stable for several days and didn't really do too much with her other than give her food at first and lead her around.  She enjoys being brushed, so that was helpful for bonding.  She was very tired after for 4 and half hour journey home, so was quite quiet so I never saw the nerves that were there when I went to see her.

Headcollar wise, what I did, and I would recommend is at first, just leave one on in the field, and practise on the yard.  Do not take the one that you've got on off, just put another one on over the top.

She was very nervous around the yard.  Hated people sweeping, running, or even shrugging their shoulders!!  I not kiding!!!!  I just spent lods of time with her doing it quietly.  One day she'd suddenly just be fine with it.  She just had to work out for herself it wasn't gooing to hurt her!  I did lots of things like walking her over tarpauline, tying plastic bags etc to her saddle, just trying to desensitise her.

I didn't do anything too special other than letting it take a lot longer when I was teaching her to be tacked up and lunged etc.  She certainly taught me patience!  It took me at least 6 months before I could bridle her normally.

My biggest problem really came once I'd backed her.  I'd be walking around on her, all would seem ok, and then she would suddenly explode!!  Nothing wrong with her at all.  We just took a step back and spent weeks and weeks long reining her, then a couple of weeks leaning over her.  Then days just getting on, then getting straight back off.  Then walking on her about 20 secs, then getting off.  It took ages.  But these baby baby baby steps were the only answer,  I did get to the stage thinking what the heck am I going to do with her?  She just wasn't happy, you could see the terror in her eyes.  

But it has paid off.  We're not there by a long way.  But I am now walking and trotting around the school on her and I can even go for little walks down the drive (it's tentative, but she's going).  She is a bit spooky, but her reaction aren't over the top.

What I have learnt is to not put pressure on her.  Just give her time to work it out.  I don't let her walk all over me by any stretch, but thankfully she has an exceptional temperament and just isn't like that.  Deep down she wants to please, but just can be very scared!

All I can suggest is loads of desensitising and groundwork, long reining etc to make him braver and learn that he CAN cope.  That is what I've done, although not got a finished article!

Good luck!


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## Scheherezade (22 April 2010)

Long story short - YES. A lot of my horses have come to me because they were/are nervous wrecks, and so owners have lost confidence themselves.

The key thing is trust. Plain and simple - they need to really trust the rider, they need a bond to develop. Nervous horses are the 'pack' horses who just follow the dominant mare or stallion of the herd. You need to take that role. Otherwise the "run away from danger" instinct kicks in.

The horse I have just been given was an absolute wreck when I first got him. Ex racehorse, beaten and abused (scars from whip marks). He had broken his owners ribs rearing and bolting, and in return she hit him even more, as she says herself she doesn't have the patience to keep asking quietly.

Don't hit them out of anger, or force, learn to know when they need a tap of encouragement or to straighten, and when they need to just stand there, looking at it to make sure it isn't going to jump up at them.

Lots and lots of gentle encouragement. And make sure you yourself are breathing. I know it sounds daft, but subconsciously we hold our breath when we are nervous - when a horse suddenly jumps we hold our breath until we feel safe (the "phew!" feeling). But this only tenses us, and makes the horse feel insecure. Make sure you are breathing slowly, feel your legs wrapped around them almost as a comfort blanket. Never allow them to spin away or turn round. Even if they're not going past it, they have to remain facing forwards.

It can take time, or it can take 10 minutes for them to 'click' that they aren't going to die. My current one had been written off as ever jumping ever again, as he would explode if a pole was even in the arena. After 15 minutes he was cantering over it, 40 minutes going over a small cross. One week later he was going over larger crosses and small uprights. Once they "click" that they are safe, you might find it's rapid progress.

His owner would get annoyed, and say things like "he's not scared! it's just a pole, he's just being naughty". But he wasn't - he was scared, but not of the pole. He was scared of the beatings he associated with jumping (having come from a dodgy p2p trainer). He needed to know that jumping was fun and safe, and as soon as he got loads of pats and praises and treats after each jump, he was loving it!

If you don't feel capable/confident, get a confident friend to help him get his confidence back, that way you can see him progressing which will help with your confidence (I am simultaneously retraining horse AND rider!). 

I hope this helps and isn't too waffly!
xx


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## foxy1 (22 April 2010)

I have a Welsh D too who used to be very sharp/nervous. I bought him direct from the breeder and he hadn't really been handled, had to be carefully approached in the field or stable as his eyes would always be on stalks and the slightest 'wrong' move (in his eyes) he would be off like lightning in the field or if in the stable would turn his bum and kick out both hind legs in sheer panic.

I sent him to Jason Webb in Kent for breaking and he gave me back a different horse; so laid back! My boy had major miscommunication issues with people, but now that Jason has taught him (and me) clear boundaries my horse now understands what is expected of him in any situation. He hacks alone and in company and is a joy. I never ever thought he could or would be this laid back, I always thought he would be quirky and when I tell people what he used to be like they look at me as if I'm insane!

I should think your problems are the same as mine ie. your horse doesn't understand what's expected of him so he gets very anxious. If he were mine I would send him to Jason and he can teach you and your horse how to communicate.

Good Luck!


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## aquamarine (22 April 2010)

People may scoff at this but have you thought about something like shiatsu? Mine has always been a spooky monkey but just before Christmas she was becoming unbearable. She doesn't have it in her to relax when being ridden. Constantly fighting, jumping out of her skin at nothing and not really a lot of fun to ride. I've had her for five years and she just seemed to be getting worse.
My acupuncturist suggested shiatsu as it works on the same principles as acupuncture but with pressure instead of needles. The girl that comes out struggled to feel her skeleton because her muscles were so tight. After the first session, she was waaaay much better, and four sessions down the line she's like someone else's horse - soft to school, no more fighting and a real pleasure to ride. So much so, I've just come back from a lesson where we jumped for the first time in ages - she'll normally stop and have a good panic but she launched herself over the jumps and actually seemed to be enjoying it. I'm amazed at the difference it's made. It's also helped with her coughing (she coughs when stabled in winter, then gets hayfever pretty badly at this time of year) but so far we seem to have managed to keep a lid on it - two years ago, her hayfever was so bad I couldn't ride.
I'm sure it probably doesn't work for every horse but it's def worked for mine and there's nothing else I can put it down to, except that the shiastu has 'rebalanced her meridians' or whatever they're called. I know it sounds like mumbo jumbo, but don't knock it til you've tried it


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## Vicki1986 (22 April 2010)

foxy1 said:



			I have a Welsh D too who used to be very sharp/nervous. I bought him direct from the breeder and he hadn't really been handled, had to be carefully approached in the field or stable as his eyes would always be on stalks and the slightest 'wrong' move (in his eyes) he would be off like lightning in the field or if in the stable would turn his bum and kick out both hind legs in sheer panic.

I sent him to Jason Webb in Kent for breaking and he gave me back a different horse; so laid back! My boy had major miscommunication issues with people, but now that Jason has taught him (and me) clear boundaries my horse now understands what is expected of him in any situation. He hacks alone and in company and is a joy. I never ever thought he could or would be this laid back, I always thought he would be quirky and when I tell people what he used to be like they look at me as if I'm insane!

I should think your problems are the same as mine ie. your horse doesn't understand what's expected of him so he gets very anxious. If he were mine I would send him to Jason and he can teach you and your horse how to communicate.

Good Luck!
		
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my youngster goes to Jasons in a few weeks - reading this has made me v pleased!


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## Vicki1986 (22 April 2010)

i knew 2 ponies a RS, who were very nervous all their lives / touchy about there legs being touched, feet done etc. theyre now at a different RS and i saw them hacking past with shoes on and they looked totally diff animals, wearing rugs etc. sometimes a change of scene / lifestyle can be the trigger you need - which is ironic as normally change leads to stress.


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## Morgan123 (22 April 2010)

Thansk! Aquamarine - im gunna try that 

Am just a bit at the end of my tether - it's been 3 yrs and i feel like i've tried everything and been as patient, consistent, kind and accepting wiht him as I possibly can - i just want him to be happy and enjoy life, and sometimes i think he's really improved, other times (like now) i think i'm just wasting both our time and should think about rehoming him...

will try some shiatsu and stuff maybe and keep going, think im just on a downer about it all at the moment :-(


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## Rachellouise1 (22 April 2010)

Try not to be down, you've done a great deal.  Horses are really bizarre creatures and yet so amazing in the next second.  Have you tried clicker training?  I really enjoyed learning it and the horse seem to love it too.  PM me if you want some more details xx


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## anuvb (22 April 2010)

Absolutely they can get over it.  I've had a couple like it and it's very easy to get down hearted.  I'm not into NH type stuff, but some of the principles the likes of Michael Peace etc use are good basic solid horsemanship skills and are worth exploring with him. 

I'm also not sure of all the details of your current situation but the basic principles are that he should always regard you as his leader.  This doesn't mean by force but by quite, calm consistent handling which sets him comfortable boundaries within which to work and also really clearly shows him how you expect him to behave. Work just at the edge of his comfort zone each time (ie, before he bolts, panics or stresses) and break everything down into small steps.  Do lots of groundwork, and that means everything from lungeing through to spending time in his stable getting him used to touch, movement and sounds around him.  Start with small things - for instance my horse couldn't stand the farrier, so to get him used to the noise and feel of the farrier I spent several weeks first working on him picking his feet up, secondly tapping his hooves and then building up to having some shoes on by clunking metal near him, and then tapping his hooves and shoes to make the 'clunking' noise at his feet.  It worked a treat and by breaking down one action into several small steps we worked through his irrational fear.  However once you start on a small step, you have to see it through to the end, so for instance my boy couldn't pick his hooves up, so i'd start with a small short lift, and when I wanted to build it up he'd start to fidget.  By asking him to hold the position for slightly longer each time and expecting him to do so, we now have him picking up his feet on voice command.

If you're having leading, catching issues etc it's easier to resolve them in a smaller space (eg, lunge pen), or with a lunge line on so that the horse can keep 'away' from you, but you're near enough to work with him.  When he panics he needs to know he can move away and that you won't cause him any pain, but he needs to learn that he's still expected to stay near you... and so on 

There's so many things you can do to help him, I could go on for hours.


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## mle22 (22 April 2010)

What about trying a horse communicator too - I know all the rational arguments against it - but ...


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## brucea (22 April 2010)

I'm going to mention the "B" word and the "P" word

I took on a neurotic, manic, ultra spooky ex racer. He was a real handful

I made a few discoveries since I got him.

Grains - changed diet and got rid of grains and any mixes. Lost the recurrent low grade colic

Barefoot - he had quite contracted feet - his attitude changed quite quick after getting the shoes off - I guess it dows have a winding up effect if you are in constant low grade discomfort - shows up as anxiety

Parelli - gave me a really useful framework and games to play wiht him - being a real right brain bright red horse, the repetitive nature of the games helps him calm and focus.

But barefoot _and _Parelli - you probably shouldn't listen to me.


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## Morgan123 (22 April 2010)

Thank you! it's nice to ahve some positivity!!

OK - clicker training - yes, done lots, he does like that! it does work really well witt him, but i don't like doing it ALL the time and am not convinced always works to make him happier - sometimes he just acts like a spoilt brat about it. if he's in the mood, it's great though, can't fault it!

Barefoot - yes he is already (tries to kick farrier in the head so no choice about that!!)

join ups - yeh, well, in the old place they used to have a round pen and just chase the horses round as a fittening method. I did join up wiht him when i got him, but no way now - a) i disagree wiht the theory and b) he freaks out if i try adn get him to move awya form me in any sort of lunging/join up sit and i don't want to worry him!

ground work - in terms of moving feet etc. well, i've done bits of this as he's not great at moving away from pressure (had to teach him that wiht the clicker as he didn't get it!). It defintiely does not give him nice 'boundaries' like normal horses, he just looks haunted and worried, no matter how light i am wiht the aid and how careful i am to remove the pressure the second he moves.

Parelli - ditto above, and i disagree wiht loads of thier stuff (loads of it contradicts itself imo though i realise others disagree) - anyway as it's pressure based, that's kind of the same as above... i do know lots of poeple find it useful in similar situations but he definitely doens't enjoy me moving him around so it's not for him, i think :-( thansk though!

feed: he only has fibre nuts and hay

Horse whisperer - thanks, yesterday i did acutally email someone as was feeling so low about it lol, we will see.....!! am a bit sceptical but can't do any harm....

So, i think i've sort of done most of what i can ...! It's so hard to know what will move forward. In general i prefer positive stuff/clickers to normal NH but Michael Peace is in the area and i do like how calm he is, maybe will try him or something. trouble is it's not something i can put my finger on though, just general trust stuff i suppose, adn him not seeming v happy....

thank you so much for all the help and ideas! much appreicated (esp as you hda to read that massive essay lol!!!)


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## Morgan123 (22 April 2010)

OMG typos!! sorry!!!


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## LaurenM (22 April 2010)

I would recommend leaving the headcollar on him in the field, talking to him, understanding the signals he's giving and acting appropriately. The shaitsu (spelling?) also sounds like it may be beneficial!

My boy will try and rear/tank off with the farrier - it took me until my second attempt at shoeing to notice that he was doing it because he was insecure and is normally a pack horse. Even when riding he can be quite stubborn - I just speak to him firmly and pay attention to his ears so i know what he wants from me. i.e. encouragement or if he's content and confident. I also always have to tell myself to breathe and relax my body!

p.s. You are doing a really good job!


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## LizScott (22 April 2010)

Sorry absolutely no advice whatsoever but just wanted to say that I admire your dedication and hard work, it sounds like you're doing everything you can x


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## foxy1 (22 April 2010)

Vicki1986 said:



			my youngster goes to Jasons in a few weeks - reading this has made me v pleased!
		
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The best money I ever spent without a shadow of a doubt! The man is an absolutely world class horseman and doesn't get half the recognition he deserves!


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## Rachellouise1 (22 April 2010)

Sounds like you are doing everything you can, have you been to a clicker clinic?  It will move you on enormously.  Alex Kurland recommends you use the clicker all the time - she would ha, ha.  I think it may be time for him to go away for a bit, mine went in Feb for 6 weeks as I was at the end of my tether, long story not now!!  She has come back a different beast and I'm better for it too.  We had 'locked horns'.  Anyway good luck hun xxx


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## Echo Bravo (22 April 2010)

OH Help!! I have a Wesh Sec D, bought him last year and he thinks he's the bee's knees. My problem is getting him to to take a bit, he's not frightend, But last night I had a 2 hour stand off, trying to get him to except the bit, he'd done it the night before. He'd set his jaw and I wasn't giving in, until my OH rang on my mobile, asking was I OK, so stand off at the moment, but what he doesn't realise the Queen of Demons is in the next stable, and it took me six months to get a bit in her mouth. But I have heard that Welsh Sec D can be a law on to themselvs.


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## Seahorse (22 April 2010)

foxy1 said:



			The best money I ever spent without a shadow of a doubt! The man is an absolutely world class horseman and doesn't get half the recognition he deserves!
		
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I agree, he is brilliant.


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## Morgan123 (23 April 2010)

johnrobert said:



			But I have heard that Welsh Sec D can be a law on to themselvs.
		
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Lol yes, i heard Monty Roberts and Kelly marks at a demo once saying that they'd be out of business if it werent for Welsh Ds...

thank you for all the advice and help, it's good to hear some positivity!!!


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## skewby (23 April 2010)

QR *hand up* yes they can!

Mine was a bag of panic when I got him.  But once they calm down they are awesome horses, cos (well mine anyway) is now safe as houses but with spark, he will always have that so that's sort of a remnant of it.

But yes definitely stick with it - I would say don't worry too much about his past, they live in the present, they relax dead quick if you let them!!  Was it Mark Rashid or someone who said, treat a horse like a rescue and it always will be?  Anyway best of luck and please keep us posted??  xx


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## Morgan123 (23 April 2010)

skewby said:



			I would say don't worry too much about his past, they live in the present, they relax dead quick if you let them!!  Was it Mark Rashid or someone who said, treat a horse like a rescue and it always will be?  Anyway best of luck and please keep us posted??  xx
		
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ah thanks. yeh, i always try and live by that too, but i think maybe he's so damaged that this actually doens't apply to him. i mean, he was just getting really brave when that headcollar thing happened, and it's now been four days of me going up and stroking him in the field, no pressure or anything, and yet he STILL snorts if i move remotely quickly (before the headocllar thing, i'd done enough work that he was never bad to catch or fearful of heacollar or anything i was doing near him, e.g. stretching). So i kind of feel like for him his past really is relevant all the time, though more than anything i want for us both to be able to forget it. it's quite sad really.

I LOVE your pony though, is that the ex-nervy one? he is so cute!!


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## dltamblyn (25 December 2011)

Hi just a thought have you had his eye sight tested?


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## traceyann (25 December 2011)

My spanish horse is the most scared horse iv ever met in thirty years with horses. Sadly when scared will stand and fight tooth and hoof. When i first got him putting a headcollar was a issue picking up feet any touching of any form used to make him shake with fear. He excellent with all that know still can be funny to handle sometimes and never to be trusted.I also put him on a no sugar diet we only had one accident since but he been really good I very nearly had him PTS because of his dangerous issues time time more time with these horses. I understand the haunted look in your horses eyes mine gets the same like remembering their past and you cant snap them out of it and thats when their most dangerous I think some horse will never get over the past and mine is one of them but we can make it a little less stressfull for them Good luck i really wish you the best most important stay safe I never handle mine without hat gloves and bodyprotecter and leg pads.


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## Pale Rider (25 December 2011)

Nervous horses behave the way they do not because they fear being hurt, they fear death, and all the tricks they pull is to preserve their own life, nothing more, nothing less.

To achieve the state, refered to in this context as 'normal', is confidence building. For your horse to see you as its leader and have confidence in your leadership is down to you. I see that you have put a lot of time into this horse, after his poor start, but, using the right techniques for your particular horse should not have to take years.

Horses tend to sum people up in seconds and behave accordingly.

Sending them away to trainers is okay, but that level of expertise really needs to be maintained when they come home or regression often occurs.

I note that somewhere in this thread groundwork is mentioned, and the statement, he doesn't really like that, is made. Well, there's a clue for you.


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## Ladyinred (25 December 2011)

Vicki1986 said:



			my youngster goes to Jasons in a few weeks - reading this has made me v pleased!
		
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Jason Webb is great, if the OP is close enough for it to be viable then I would recommend her sending her horse to him. I have seen several he has worked with and been to some of his open days etc.. he has the 'touch'!

I also have a very nervous Sec D but we have the advantage that she trusts us totally, so even when she is scared she will follow us. We also have the opposite end of the spectrum with one so brave she is unbelieveable. Both by the same sire and bred by the same person. Strange.


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## foxy1 (25 December 2011)

The thing about Jason Webb is he works with the owner and horse together so he can see where things are going wrong and then trains the owner how to behave too.


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## LouS (25 December 2011)

Pale Rider said:



			Nervous horses behave the way they do not because they fear being hurt, they fear death, and all the tricks they pull is to preserve their own life, nothing more, nothing less.

To achieve the state, refered to in this context as 'normal', is confidence building. For your horse to see you as its leader and have confidence in your leadership is down to you. I see that you have put a lot of time into this horse, after his poor start, but, using the right techniques for your particular horse should not have to take years.

Horses tend to sum people up in seconds and behave accordingly.

Sending them away to trainers is okay, but that level of expertise really needs to be maintained when they come home or regression often occurs.

I note that somewhere in this thread groundwork is mentioned, and the statement, he doesn't really like that, is made. Well, there's a clue for you.
		
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Agree with all of this, a confident handler/rider makes a confident horse.

If he's still frightened when you put the saddle on I wouldn't be riding him at all. I'd put a lunge line on him, put the saddle on, let him go and express himself, bring him back, take it off, send him out, bring him back, put it on, send him out, bring him back, take it off etc etc. It takes a long time to build confidence in a horse that has lost it but you have to be consistent and fair.

There's a hundred things I could tell you to do with him, but before all that have you considered he could be in pain/discomfort? Have you had a physio/chiro etc look at him? Does the tack fit? So many problems with horses are caused by physical discomfort that isn't necessarily obvious. I got a mare who was very, very nervous, she schooled, jumped and hacked in her previous home, yet was just very tense, didn't like you tacking her up or getting on etc. Had a good physio out and she was very sore in her shoulders and poll and she'd just been coping with it as best she could. It took me another several months work after this to get her totally relaxed with having a saddle put on and letting me get on as they will remember and anticipate the pain.

P.S I also have a Welsh D and he's very, very clever and when he spooks, he really spooks usually all four feet come off the ground and you're on the floor before you know what's happened, if you give him an inch he'll take a mile, he needs very clear boundaries and very confident handling. Although when you do things right he is brilliant, very clever little horse  Good luck.


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## Snoopy1 (25 December 2011)

Havent read whole threat so maybe repeating something already suggested but I have had huge success with my v nervous TB by using an RA from the Kelly Marks site.  Have a look at horse help on her web site. All the best.


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## Morgan123 (25 December 2011)

Wow this is weird, I just clcked on that thinking that looks interesting adn it's my post from ages ago!! lol. Actually said horse has improved beyond belief!! Massively relieved - mostly what I did was a lot of endurance, a lot of patience, and another set of re-backing (and a bit of help from an animal communicator!!).


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## Cobiau Cymreig Wyllt (25 December 2011)

OP, when I read the words 'Welsh D' and 'old methods' my heart sank on your behalf! 
I know this combination...my younger Sec D has some of the same issues...there is some great advice on here and I can't really offer too much new as many of the things that I am working with myself with mine have already been listed..but just wanted to say that I do get to this point fairly regularly with my boy..and when I do, I remind myself that he came to me for a reason..and I believe in him even when he frustrates me, costs me a fortune, makes me despair he'll ever be right...I guess sometimes we just need a long-term project and a Sec D like this is definitely that!!!  
So sympathies, keep us updated and well done for getting this far and sticking with him when many wouldn't bother.


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## mystiandsunny (25 December 2011)

It can take more time than you'd ever think, with a horse with a bad start to riding/tack etc.  Some things never go - like with humans, some bad experiences will always haunt them.  What I've found, is that you can get them to trust YOU.  You may never be successful in teaching them to trust all aspects of the things that frighten them, but if they trust you and you're doing it, they'll be ok with you and the fear will lessen.  

Examples:
- pony who'd seen a traffic accident in which another pony was killed.  We could never convince her that cars are safe - she knows they're not.  What we did manage to convince her, was that we could keep her safe around cars.  Combination of a strong leader 'human', and a pair bonded horse who was 100% in traffic to give her confidence.  Still needs both of those, years later, but copes.  She will try out any new rider within minutes of getting on if they're going to attempt to hack out - if they fail to be dominant, confident and self-assured, she panics.
- pony who'd once trusted humans implicitly but was a little sensitive.  Backed all wrong, scared of the process and long-term suspicious of humans under saddle.  Took 18 months, and progress was painfully slow until used a calmer (Prokalm) to take the edge off her anxiety.  Then progress was steady, and enabled some really good experiences that developed trust and a bond.  

In all cases, being overly kind and submissive around them isn't the answer - be a confident leader, who is fair but in charge, who never loses their temper.  Handle other horses if you can, in sight of yours, doing the things with them that yours is scared of.  That way, yours can see that YOU aren't like the person in their memories.  That when a horse is naughty you tell it off - in a way that isn't totally terrifying, but is fair.  So they can see what might happen (the greatest fear is of the unknown), and what you're really like.  Horses/ponies come and join my herd and learn through watching me with the others - they see what is expected of them, and what they can expect of me.  They see the others keen to be ridden, to be played with and petted, and begin to want the same.  

Do things every day so there's never time for the bad memories to surface.  Challenge the two of you gradually over time, so that you're doing scarier and scarier things and the other stuff becomes easy because you managed to .... (go over a motorway bridge/be lunged/whatever's relevant for them).

Sometimes I think it's easier to work with something that's totally wild!


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## canteron (25 December 2011)

Hi, I haven't read all the messages .... but sure there are some good ideas in there.  This may (or may not!) be part of any solution.

I have a horse who is terrified of clippers and vets and I am going to try a method called overshadowing.  The main teacher of the method has given me a demonstration - but there is an you tube clip which would give you an initial idea.  She does a lot of work with vets so they can inject horses safely.  As a desensitising technique it has many uses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVFbTI8R6MI

If you think it might help you on your journey to gain confidence then PM me and I will let you know how I get on!!


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