# Tildren/navicular



## superpony (19 October 2011)

My 8 year old TB was diagnosed with navicular June 2010, he has worn eggbars ever since and been on a danilon a day. He has been fine hacking, schooling, small jumps etc, up until about 8/9 weeks ago when he went lame again.

Hes not badly lame in a straight line but isn't *right* and is quite obviously lame on a circle especially on hard ground. He was re xrayed a few weeks ago and the navicular hasn't detoriated but he is still lame despite being reshod by another farrier.

On the barefoot front... I have thought about/researched it and my vets do not recommend it to help him, if the tildren doesn't work/I decide not to do the tildren then I am going to take his shoes off and let him chill in the field and see what happens but I want to follow the vets advice first..

I have spoken to the vets and the last resort before retirement is tildren, at the cost of approx £500. I am happy to pay this (he is no longer covered under insurance for navicular) if there is a decent chance of marked improvement, however I do want to be throwing good money after bad!!!!

Also he is very sensitive so I am worried about the stress of it all as well as the risk of colic afterwards etc! And whether it will make enough of an improvement to ride him again.

So I was wondering if anyone could share their experiences on navicular/tildren please? Good and bad welcomed!!!


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## floella82 (19 October 2011)

Hi my boy has navicular.

This was diagnosed a year ago. He had Hy50 injections in both front feet and is shod with quarter clips and wedged pads.

This treatment seems to suit him perfectly he has been sound ever since and returned to full work. I'm very carefull with the ground I ride him on and don't do alot of trotting on the roads.

Has your horse had these injections? Harry is on no bute just synequin, the vet did say this will not improve his navicular but will help slow down any other wear and tear on other joints.

Fingers crossed your horse will make an improvement, i don't have any experiance of tildren this was never mentioned to me.


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## superpony (19 October 2011)

floella82 said:



			Hi my boy has navicular.

This was diagnosed a year ago. He had Hy50 injections in both front feet and is shod with quarter clips and wedged pads.

This treatment seems to suit him perfectly he has been sound ever since and returned to full work. I'm very carefull with the ground I ride him on and don't do alot of trotting on the roads.

Has your horse had these injections? Harry is on no bute just synequin, the vet did say this will not improve his navicular but will help slow down any other wear and tear on other joints.

Fingers crossed your horse will make an improvement, i don't have any experiance of tildren this was never mentioned to me.
		
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Thank you for your reply.

That sounds very postive, no these injections havn't been offered, could you tell me a bit about them please?


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## brucea (19 October 2011)

Do yourself and your horse a favour and look up Nic Barker at Rockley Farm. 

Then decide.


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## superpony (19 October 2011)

brucea said:



			Do yourself and your horse a favour and look up Nic Barker at Rockley Farm. 

Then decide.
		
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I have done this but unfortunately I cannot afford to send him here.. the cost of livery works out at about £1.5K + plus cost of travelling him down there, which is alot of money on a horse which may still not be rideable afterwards.


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## floella82 (19 October 2011)

As far as I know the injections are a steroid and like a false joint fluid this was injected into his coronet band and once shoes and wedges out on he was back in work.

Definately worth speaking to your vet about. Did your horse have the typical lollipops on his navicular when he was x rayed?


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## sbloom (19 October 2011)

My first horse had DJD of the coffin joint which, certainly then (10 years ago) had the same prognosis and treatment as navicular.  He gradually became lame in eggbars (put on by an examiner farrier) - I thought it was just the shoes but actually his angles were worsening because the trim wasn't right.  I too him to the most amazing Natural Balance farrier and he was made sound there and then in the first shoeing.  Sadly I lost him to a field accident not long after so I can't say whether it was a long term success.

I would now choose barefoot first (and lots of vets are anti barefoot for way too many horses, they do have their prejudices) and Natural Balance shoeing second.

I have read a comment from a human orthopaedic surgeon that they would never inject their horse with Tildren and that spoke columes to me.  I know one person who has had it done and it has worked only moderately well - a few months of total comfort and soundness but a very slow decline ever since which is about 3 years. 

As far as I know barefoot is the only thing that can actually show a reversal of the condition rather than a slowing of it, over the long term.


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## cptrayes (19 October 2011)

Caudal hoof (back half) cannot be properly diagnosed with x rays. On the strength of the quality of the navicular bone my friend was recently given an extremely poor prognosis on her daughter's horse from a top veterinary hospital. "Minor" ddft/collateral ligament damage was seen on MRI but discounted by the hospital because the navicular bone itself was so damaged.

The horse was sound within weeks of a proper barefoot rehab.

Challenge your vet to explain this to you. X-rays tell you almost NOTHING about whether a horse with lameness originating in the back half of the foot can be resolved or not, most of the time they are a complete red herring. 

My own rehab with bad Xrays last year had tildren and was still lame. He was sound to compete dressage after 11 weeks out of shoes, and sound to jump after 12 weeks on a 6 mile farm ride.

You do not need to send you horse to Rockley to do a barefoot rehab, though there is little doubt that it is much easier to do so!


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## nic83 (19 October 2011)

My horse was given tildren following a diagnosis of navicular. He was given tildren while waiting for MRI - I was advised the treatment would be the same regardless of what the MRI said, so I may as well have it done while he was at the vets. I felt quite rushed to make a decision and followed their advice, he had tildren - got him home he coliced.

A couple of weeks later he had the MRI which revealed DDFT, ligaments you name it he had it, so they then recommended 6 months box rest with a 5% chance of coming sound/PTS - in all the tildren was a waste of time.

That aside, even if it had worked seeing my horses reaction I would never put him through that again. And as I understand tildren only lasts a certain amount of time and generally wears off and has to be repeated -at £500 a time that could get as expensive. In my mind the benefit of barefoot (in my simple terms) is that the horse can grow the foot it needs to resolve the long term issue/cause rather than artificially trying to do it with remedial farriery or managing it with pain relief.

Which brings me to Rockley - my horse has just come home from there. We have a way to go yet but he is back in light work hacking out, thats after vets said PTS in end of May/June. 

I appreciate it is expensive and a big decision to send your horse away, there are people on here who have made the transition to barefoot  and rehabbed at home themselves - but it depends on your  horses environment, knowledge/experience and what support you have. I didn't have enough knowledge or the right environment and felt Rockley was his best option to get him started, now he is home I continue the work. 

Anyway, I have rambled enough, I wish you the best of luck with your horse whatever you do as I know how hard those decisions are.


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## ITPersonnage (20 October 2011)

Hi,

Just wanted to give my two penneth, my horse was diagnosed with navicular about a year ago and has had egg bar shoes ever since. The farrier has spent the last year improving the shape of one of her wonky front feet and I feel sure this is why she has now been sound for 8 months. She had tildren twice in that time which seemed to give her a boost and helped her stretch out in her stride but I feel sure the farriery has been what really worked. Not sure if she ever really had navicular (!) or was "just" foot imbalance. Both times she had tildren she had no reaction at all and stood like a lamb for the 30/45 minutes whilst it was dripped in. She didn't even flood the stable afterwards which I was given to believe was likley. 

Hope this helps, I would probably try barefoot if all else fails but we (thankfully ) aren't there yet in fact she's going better than ever (fingers crossed as I write this ..)

In my case I stuck with my farrier as he seemed to think his work would pay off over the long term but you can't expect hooves to change overnight!

Best of luck with yours.


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## Oberon (20 October 2011)

It really disappoints me when people still consider barefoot to be the last resort. It makes me feel like just giving up posting.....

You don't HAVE to spend a fortune on special shoes or drugs. All you need to do is take the shoes off and let the horse repair the damage.

You don't HAVE to send your horse to Rockley. It's perfectly possible to rehab a horse at home. But you DO NEED support and advice from someone who has experience and will work with you, not against you. And you DO NEED to be prepared to take on board changes to his diet and management as a part of the process.

Many vets say, "your horse won't go barefoot." Many vets are wrong on this point. I see this on my own yard

This is another horse from my yard, all rehabed at home and been out and competing ever since.....
http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/shoko.html


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## Andalucian (20 October 2011)

Annabel, the £1.5K is inclusive of livery, why does this sound expensive versus remedial shoeing costs, plus £500 for Tildren.  Think about it.

I've followed the eggbar shoeing route (many years ago) and it relieves the pain for a while, then it returns, the next step offered is usually medication and or wedge pads.  The same outcome, relief from pain for a while, then it returns.  I lost that horse.

Now I'm a barefoot trimmer, and I recover similar horses from the condition that my horse died from.  I know what I'm talking about, but the choice is yours.

Think about it, how does a perfectly healthy animal get lame in both front feet simultaneously?????  I'll let you think about that.


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## maggiesmum (20 October 2011)

Todays blog is particularly relevant..

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/


It only seems expensive if used as a last resort after already spending thousands on conventional treatment, if it was the 1st treatment tried it'd be a bargain!


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## Solar (21 October 2011)

My boy has a bony spur above his navicular bursa for which he has undergone a LOT of treatment this summer! This comment struck a cord with me as it's exactly what I find:



annabel2009 said:



			Hes not badly lame in a straight line but isn't *right* and is quite obviously lame on a circle especially on hard ground.
		
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My boy had Tildren 8 weeks ago, by drip, at our yard. He was very wet overnight but this was the only side effect he suffered. Unfortunately, I have not seen any improvement at all but I know that there are people on here who have had good results. 

However, I have now decided to take the barefoot route, my chap will be going to Rockley in a couple of weeks hopefully and that decision started to seed following advice on here.

I have already had his shoes removed as he is not doing any work and, as he had Equipak pads, I wanted his soles to harden back up. I have to say I was so worried that he would step of the mats and not be able to walk - I was expecting him to be very sore. But, the reality was he is coping wonderfully and people don't realise he has no shoes til they look down!

There is, obviously, a very long way to go and I am sending him to Rockley in the hope that they will lay good strong groundwork for me to build on. When you consider that you will not have your usual livery costs, remedial shoeing costs (for me this was £180 per set), veterinary treament (already in excess of 1.5k in my case) it really isn't so expensive!


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## moorman (21 October 2011)

As a referral farrier I would be very careful about putting 'egg' bars on.
The problem being that an egg bar does not support the centre of the foot.
If a shoe is needed I would favour a shot tongued hart bar so as to give the frog some absorbing pressure.
it is something I would talk over with your vet.
I think you will find that not many vets or farriers use the egg bar now.


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## superpony (21 October 2011)

Thanks everyone lots to think about... doing some research into barefoot and the injections available.


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## cands (25 October 2011)

Unfortunatley navicular disease is progressive and will continue to worsen over time. From my experience a horse with navicular may be suitable for light work on soft ground. Heart bar shoes are often useful as are wedges as they take pressure off the navicular bone. I would certainly not take his shoes off if I were you because his shoes shock absorb and take pressure off the bone. There are also injections which increase the blood flow to the navicular bone which can help, and also nerve blocks which are considered a last resort. The other alternative is to just keep him shod on the front feet and semi retire him ie; just do hacks around and low level flatwork


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## Oberon (25 October 2011)

cands said:



			Unfortunatley navicular disease is progressive and will continue to worsen over time. From my experience a horse with navicular may be suitable for light work on soft ground. Heart bar shoes are often useful as are wedges as they take pressure off the navicular bone. I would certainly not take his shoes off if I were you because his shoes shock absorb and take pressure off the bone. There are also injections which increase the blood flow to the navicular bone which can help, and also nerve blocks which are considered a last resort. The other alternative is to just keep him shod on the front feet and semi retire him ie; just do hacks around and low level flatwork
		
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I'm afraid you are a little out dated. Would you care to tell all that to these horses.......
http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/shoko.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/09/morning-after-weekend-before.html
http://www.performancebarefoot.co.uk/page25.html

This is the official research that is ongoing
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/p/research-results.html

These are just a few of the horses for which barefoot was a last attempt before PTS who are all out and in work again - and not just light hacking.....

Heart bars and wedges may take pressure off the caudal part of the foot and the tendons and provide temporary relief. But the caudal foot is the problem. Due to the shoes, it becomes weak, atrophied, diseased and results in a toe-first landing. Over time this creates damage to the navicular bone and/or lesions to the soft tissues.

Taking shoes off and providing an appropriate, sympathetic trim and rehab will allow the caudal foot to strengthen and develop and re-establish a heel first landing. Thus the damaged structures can heal (I know there is still controversy as to whether the navicular bone can remodel, but if the horse is sound.....who cares).

So remedial farriery can provide relief for a while, but it doesn't fix anything.

As to shoes absorbing shock - I'm not sure where do you get that from? 

The information is all out there if you wish to find out more


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## maggiesmum (25 October 2011)

cands said:



			Unfortunatley navicular disease is progressive and will continue to worsen over time. From my experience a horse with navicular may be suitable for light work on soft ground. Heart bar shoes are often useful as are wedges as they take pressure off the navicular bone. I would certainly not take his shoes off if I were you because his shoes shock absorb and take pressure off the bone. There are also injections which increase the blood flow to the navicular bone which can help, and also nerve blocks which are considered a last resort. The other alternative is to just keep him shod on the front feet and semi retire him ie; just do hacks around and low level flatwork
		
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Yes, Oberons right. There are plenty of us on here who were told all of the above by the professionals but we discovered that it is all old hat and that taking the shoes off not only stops the progression but can reverse the damage too! 
It never makes sense to me why we ever expected a different result (i.e. soundness) from doing the same thing (i.e. shoeing)! 
as the saying goes if you always do what you always did you'll always get what you always got!


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## sbloom (25 October 2011)

Metal isn't exactly known for being a shock absorber


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## cands (27 October 2011)

Read the above - is interesting and I also had a look at those links. These horses clearly had navicular problems because of how they were shod - especially the first one. When diseased the navicular bone becomes roughened and this can damage the tendons as they pass over. Therefore these horses in the links appear not to have true navicular disease - just navicular problems, so the change in shoeing/trimming would have of course made a difference (especially the first horse!) I never said that shoes would fix the problem and I know of cases in which different shoes have helped the condition. Barefoot clearly works for some horses

Shoes do take some of the impact out of the concussion of the foot hitting the ground (simple physics - there is something between the foot and the ground.....) but no of course they are not complete shock absorbers.


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## Oberon (27 October 2011)

cands said:



			Read the above - is interesting and I also had a look at those links. These horses clearly had navicular problems because of how they were shod - especially the first one. When diseased the navicular bone becomes roughened and this can damage the tendons as they pass over. Therefore these horses in the links appear not to have true navicular disease - just navicular problems, so the change in shoeing/trimming would have of course made a difference (especially the first horse!) I never said that shoes would fix the problem and I know of cases in which different shoes have helped the condition. Barefoot clearly works for some horses

Shoes do take some of the impact out of the concussion of the foot hitting the ground (simple physics - there is something between the foot and the ground.....) but no of course they are not complete shock absorbers.
		
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I am really impressed that you can provide a different diagnosis than the vets who saw these horses

I can confidently speak regarding Schoko as I know the horse personally. He was diagnosed by the local horse vet (Mark Lingard, RIP) and also by Leahurst Equine Hospital (as the owner demanded a second opinion) as having navicular due to bilateral CHANGES TO THE NAVICULAR BONE.

I suggested barefoot at the time - but the owners weren't ready to ignore the vet's recommendations

8 months of remedial farriery by the farrier referred by the vet and he was still lame.

He only came sound when he went barefoot. It wasn't luck

We believe (in hindsight) that the navicular developed due to intervention to his boxy hooves by well meaning farriers. 

He didn't have poor farriers - he always had 'the best'. Both the vets and farriers were happy with the jobs they were doing. 

Regarding shoes and concussion - perhaps look into the biomechanics of the bare hoof and how it deals with concussion


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## brucea (27 October 2011)

sbloom said:



			Metal isn't exactly known for being a shock absorber 

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Great at conducting electricity and ....erm force  That's why hammers are made of metal and not plasticine!

Oberon is giving you good advice.


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## cptrayes (27 October 2011)

cands said:



			Shoes do take some of the impact out of the concussion of the foot hitting the ground (simple physics - there is something between the foot and the ground.....) but no of course they are not complete shock absorbers.
		
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Are you joking?

If you add half a pound of weight to the end of a long stick you INCREASE the force with which that stick contacts the ground by an order of  magnitude, never mind what the weight is made of. Simple physics, only correct this time, where yours is not physics known in this Universe, sorry.

It also defies belief that you think that tempered steel - heated up and rapidly cooled to make it harder - has any shock absorbing capability. If it did, as Bruce says, no-one would make hammers out of it.


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## cands (27 October 2011)

Oberon said:



			I am really impressed that you can provide a different diagnosis than the vets who saw these horses

I can confidently speak regarding Schoko as I know the horse personally. He was diagnosed by the local horse vet (Mark Lingard, RIP) and also by Leahurst Equine Hospital (as the owner demanded a second opinion) as having navicular due to bilateral CHANGES TO THE NAVICULAR BONE.

I suggested barefoot at the time - but the owners weren't ready to ignore the vet's recommendations

8 months of remedial farriery by the farrier referred by the vet and he was still lame.

He only came sound when he went barefoot. It wasn't luck

We believe (in hindsight) that the navicular developed due to intervention to his boxy hooves by well meaning farriers. 

He didn't have poor farriers - he always had 'the best'. Both the vets and farriers were happy with the jobs they were doing. 

Regarding shoes and concussion - perhaps look into the biomechanics of the bare hoof and how it deals with concussion

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Hi - your starting to get bitchy and throw everything I say out of proportion. In case you haven't noticed - this is a forum where I am trying to give advice and my thoughts (*from practical experience*) to a lady whos horse has navicular. Your immiture personal attacks on me aren't appreciated. 

I didn't provide a different diagnosis to the vets? You've just said that changes to the navicular was diagnosed - I also thought the navicular bone had undergone changes - disease of the navicular is not the same as navicular changes.

It is VERY clear by the photos of the first horse's hoof that navicular problems of any kind were caused by incorrect shoeing (boxy, upright feet) -therefore a farrier that doesn't know how to trim a hoof correctly. You have said the answer yourself - bilateral changes to the navicular bone - which would have occured if the structures in the foot (due to boxy feet) changed. I posted what I did in the first place because I have seen horses (and heard about ones) that have been diagnosed with navicular, have had the remideal shoeing and have improved, and also ones that have not. Not all horses suit the barefoot option, especially not some of the TB types who's feet cannot handle no shoes. I NEVER said barefoot doesn't work - I simply said in my opinion don't take shoes off (from MY experience). I never said it was luck either that he came sound - dont know where you got that from

Clearly we have different opinions, both which have been proven to work. I was offereing my advice and personal experience and you were offering yours. Lets leave it at that. It is up to the lady who started the thread to decide what she wants to do. As to the shoes and shock absorbing - I said this through personal experience. A horse I know was having problems with splints, sore joints in the leg and windgalls. Putting natural balance shoes on him prevented further splints and the windgalls disappeared. My friends horse had big windgalls from concussion too. Putting these shoes on him helped also. So they clearly do help with concussion/shock absorbtion  They also help the closure of cracks in the hoof wall by protecting the hooves from direct contact (my horse)  - so shoes have many benefits for this type of thing. Once again - MY personal experience. I'm not saying shoes are the only way to go.  And it's clearly not rubbish because its worked for these horses. Thats all from me - and in the future people you need to apprectiate that other people are doing all they can on some of these forums to help other people. All I have said is correct, and from reading up what you have said is also correct - just another opinion.


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## Oberon (27 October 2011)

cands said:



			Hi - your starting to get bitchy and throw everything I say out of proportion. In case you haven't noticed - this is a forum where I am trying to give advice and my thoughts (*from practical experience*) to a lady whos horse has navicular. Your immiture personal attacks on me aren't appreciated. 

I didn't provide a different diagnosis to the vets? You've just said that changes to the navicular was diagnosed - I also thought the navicular bone had undergone changes - disease of the navicular is not the same as navicular changes.

It is VERY clear by the photos of the first horse's hoof that navicular problems of any kind were caused by incorrect shoeing (boxy, upright feet) -therefore a farrier that doesn't know how to trim a hoof correctly. You have said the answer yourself - bilateral changes to the navicular bone - which would have occured if the structures in the foot (due to boxy feet) changed. I posted what I did in the first place because I have seen horses (and heard about ones) that have been diagnosed with navicular, have had the remideal shoeing and have improved, and also ones that have not. Not all horses suit the barefoot option, especially not some of the TB types who's feet cannot handle no shoes. I NEVER said barefoot doesn't work - I simply said in my opinion don't take shoes off (from MY experience). I never said it was luck either that he came sound - dont know where you got that from

Clearly we have different opinions, both which have been proven to work. I was offereing my advice and personal experience and you were offering yours. Lets leave it at that. It is up to the lady who started the thread to decide what she wants to do. As to the shoes and shock absorbing - I said this through personal experience. A horse I know was having problems with splints, sore joints in the leg and windgalls. Putting natural balance shoes on him prevented further splints and the windgalls disappeared. My friends horse had big windgalls from concussion too. Putting these shoes on him helped also. So they clearly do help with concussion/shock absorbtion  They also help the closure of cracks in the hoof wall by protecting the hooves from direct contact (my horse)  - so shoes have many benefits for this type of thing. Once again - MY personal experience. I'm not saying shoes are the only way to go.  And it's clearly not rubbish because its worked for these horses. Thats all from me - and in the future people you need to apprectiate that other people are doing all they can on some of these forums to help other people. All I have said is correct, and from reading up what you have said is also correct - just another opinion.
		
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I'm sorry that you feel I have been bitchy and immature
I've certainly never been called that on this forum before? 

Of course you are entitled to your opinion but to suggest my friend's horse's diagnosis was incorrect caused her to pause open mouthed for a moment tonight (while she was riding said horse around the school )

The point is - the issues with Schoko's feet are plain to see on the website. The 'before' and 'after' is startling as you say. But it is only AFTER going barefoot that we see what the feet could become like. Prior to this - vet, farrier and owner were happy with the shape of his feet. They'd never looked any different. No one could imagine they would become so lovely given the chance

I'm not meaning to rubbish your opinion or patronise you. I am just very passionate about hooves and hate seeing owners spend ££££ on remedial shoes/drugs/ or PTS for the lack of just taking the shoes off and letting the feet blossom (like Schoko's did).


And I'm sorry, but TBs CAN cope without shoes just fine - if done properly.


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## Natch (27 October 2011)

cands said:



			Shoes do take some of the impact out of the concussion of the foot hitting the ground (simple physics - there is something between the foot and the ground.....) but no of course they are not complete shock absorbers.
		
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Excuse me, but without wishing to be accused of being bitchy and immature, I believe your understanding of simple physics to be innaccurate.

Horses' hooves have evolved to absorb shock nicely, even thoroughbreds.  that's due to the tissues involved, and the shape and structure of the foot. Lots of really interesting and in-depth videos are on you tube on this subject - if you'd like me to, I will find and post them for your interest  

Nail on a piece of rigid iron and the nice, pliable, shock absorbers can't expand, contract and squish the way they would do normally. The piece of rigid iron does not take any of the stress out of the equasion, because it does not deform under load. But it does add to the concussion transferred up the horse's leg, because it stops the natural shock absorbers from working as effectively. I think farriers and barefoot advocates alike agree on that.

Hope that helps


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## cptrayes (27 October 2011)

cands said:



			Clearly we have different opinions, both which have been proven to work.
		
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I think it does need to be said that the remedial shoeing/medication route which you have experience of working only returns something like 1 in 5 horses with "navicular spectrum" lameness to work, and even then their owners use expressions like "I am careful on hard ground". In contrast, the barefoot rehabbing which others are talking about has a 4 in 5 or better, record of returning horses to full work including hunting and jumping. Not only that, but those horses were often ones who were already in the 4 out of 5 failed by conventional shoeing and medication. Many of them, like my own, were in an "end of life" situation.

One fails four times as often as it succeeds, the other succeeds four times as often as it fails. I don't think that really counts as "both which have been proven to work", sorry.


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## cptrayes (27 October 2011)

cands said:



			. As to the shoes and shock absorbing - I said this through personal experience. A horse I know was having problems with splints, sore joints in the leg and windgalls. Putting natural balance shoes on him prevented further splints and the windgalls disappeared. My friends horse had big windgalls from concussion too. Putting these shoes on him helped also. So they clearly do help with concussion/shock absorbtion .
		
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I'm sorry but you are not describing natural balance shoes providing "shock absorption". There is no more shock absorption in  a natural balance shoe than there is in any other steel shoe - none.  The effects that you saw with the windgalls were due to a rebalancing of your horses' feet which allowed their OWN shock absorbing mechanisms in the pastern to work better for them.  Incidentally, they would work even better with no shoe on at all.


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## Natch (27 October 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I'm sorry but you are not describing natural balance shoes providing "shock absorption". There is no more shock absorption in  a natural balance shoe than there is in any other steel shoe - none.  The effects that you saw with the windgalls were due to a rebalancing of your horses' feet which allowed their OWN shock absorbing mechanisms in the pastern to work better for them.  Incidentally, they would work even better with no shoe on at all.
		
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Out of interest, whilst natural balance shoes are still made out of the same material as ordinary shoes (I believe?), and therefore I agree they have the same shock absorption, I am also under the impression that they are secured with more strategically placed nails, which allow for a bit more expansion and contraction of the heel than traditional shoes. Is that also your understanding of them?


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## cptrayes (28 October 2011)

Naturally said:



			Out of interest, whilst natural balance shoes are still made out of the same material as ordinary shoes (I believe?), and therefore I agree they have the same shock absorption, I am also under the impression that they are secured with more strategically placed nails, which allow for a bit more expansion and contraction of the heel than traditional shoes. Is that also your understanding of them?
		
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My impression is that a good farrier will fit any shoe with the nails well forward to try to allow for heel expansion. I'm not sure if NB are any different than any good farrier, perhaps someone else will know more? The big difference is that NB shoes bring the breakover point back a long way from the outer edge of the toe, back to where the horse would produce a natural breakover.


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## donald. (28 October 2011)

My horse was diagnosed with navicular last September at the time he was sound in a straight line 2/10 lame when lunged on the soft and 4/10 lame lunged on the hard.  The vet firstly recommended tildren and IRAP. Following the 10 weeks box rest he was then 6/10 lame in a straight line, so the vet recommend bar shoes.  10 months of him being sound hes now lame again. The vets have said theres nothing else they can do so after much consideration I decided to have his shoes taken of yesterday by a barefoot trimmer so fingers crossed.


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## jaye1780 (28 October 2011)

Hey dont know if you have thought any further on this annabel but if your still reading this thread...give Yvonne a ring let her go through barefoot rehab with you, explain what will be involved and have a think from there. She's fantastic at what she does and has some lovely case studies she can show you  She's not expensive either and far less than those egg bars and pulled shoes are costing you at the minute. Has to be worth a phonecall if nothing else and if it fails (i'm sure its not going to) go down the tildren route then. We have the facilities to rehab him at home, she will give you a detailed plan and be there whenever you need her. xx


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## sbloom (29 October 2011)

NB shoes worked despite the lack of shock absorption provided by the steel.  Simple  They are an improvement on a bar shoe for most navicular horses but I agree with the figures on the proportion of horses that show genuine significant improvement in both shod and barefoot regimes.  And it has been proven again and again that the vast majority of horses that would "Never cope barefoot" do, and thrive.  

Good for those of you taking the plunge - if you get it right, you'll never look back.

The only horses I've read about that have not coped barefoot despite the 100% correct protocol are those that are severely metabolically challenged - and this can take a LONG time to get to a diagnosis, so may explain pretty much all horses who cannot cope barefoot.


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## bryony89 (9 March 2013)

My tb has recently been diagnosed with navicular and also impar ligament damage in his right fore. My primary vet is reluctant to advise any treatment for the ligament damage, though other vets have advised that shock wave treatment could work. However the majority of his lameness seems to be due to the navicular, the vet has recommended the injections, and also considering a tildren drip (if insurance will cover it), though I know people have mixed views on this. I wondered if any on here has had any success with a combination of medication and barefoot? I am reluctant to try any more remedial farriery, as he has not coped well with bar shoes or wedges. I am struggling to find someone with an impartial opinion, as the vets and barefoot trimmers are so unwilling to communicate!


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## jacksmum (9 March 2013)

My current TB has Navicular. My previous TB also had it, i went down the tildren/egg bar shoes/raised heal shoes etc etc with him but he never came 100% sound and i lost him.
My current boy i have taken down the barefoot, change of diet route and he is sound and back in work.
He had really flat feet with collapsed heals but they are changing themselves and he is totally comfortable now.
My vet did not approve of this route but luckily my farrier did


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## bryony89 (9 March 2013)

Thanks for that jacksmum, sorry to hear things didn't work out for your first horse. Have you tried any medication or vet treatment with your current one or did you go straight to barefoot? Unfortunately my vet and farrier are less keen on the barefoot route, they are both running out of other ideas though, after reading about so many people who have had success with it I think it will be our next option.


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## WellyBaggins (9 March 2013)

My horse had impar ligament strain found on MRI, the Tildren which he had before the diagnosis was reached did nothing and the leahurst vet said it is not really useful in these sorts of cases, mine is being medicated and having shockwave next week, he has just had egg bars on which *touches all available surfaces* has made a huge difference, can let you know about the other treatments at a later date but that will prob be a bit late for you if you are looking at options now


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## jacksmum (9 March 2013)

bryony89 said:



			Thanks for that jacksmum, sorry to hear things didn't work out for your first horse. Have you tried any medication or vet treatment with your current one or did you go straight to barefoot? Unfortunately my vet and farrier are less keen on the barefoot route, they are both running out of other ideas though, after reading about so many people who have had success with it I think it will be our next option.
		
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As soon as i realised i had another horse with navicular i knew i wanted to try something different so i googled for every bit of info i could. I immediately changed his diet and got my farrier out. My farrier does racehorses so barefoot is not something he does but he was brilliant.
My vet was all for tildren and even denerving so i'm prob not on his christmas card list any more!
I tried something i was happy with and its worked. If you want to try it and your vet/farrier wont help change them, its your horses well being thats most important.
Good luck


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## Lancelot (9 March 2013)

Hi,

My boy has a bony spur above the navicular bursa. He had Tildren towards the end of his treatment and I'm sorry to say it made no difference whatsoever. His last resort was a barefoot rehab through Rockley. It's not been easy, in fact its been bl00dy hard work but my goodness has it been worth it!!
I can honestly tell you, hand on heart, if I had that time again & knowing what I know now,  then his first treatment option would have been barefoot. 
It honestly isn't the easy magic option but it does work. It can be really hard but it is worth every ounce of effort required )

On the flip side, if you do decide to go with Tildren, my fella had no issues with it (other than it not working!) He was VERY wet for a day afterwards but that was the only real side effect we saw.

Good luck whatever you decide


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## bryony89 (10 March 2013)

Thanks for all the comments, wellybaggins I would be interested to hear what other treatments you try and how much success you have, hope it goes well. For those who did go down the barefoot route for navicular, will you stay barefoot? Or do you intend to eventually put them back in shoes? What sort of dietary changes are advised for navicular horses? I will discuss all this with the trimmer but its good to have an idea before hand! And finally those who've used rockley farm; what do they provide there other than the different surfaces? I'm reluctant to send him away so wondered if its possible to create a similar environment at home.


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## WellyBaggins (10 March 2013)

bryony89 said:



			Thanks for all the comments, wellybaggins I would be interested to hear what other treatments you try and how much success you have, hope it goes well.
		
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Thanks, will let you know, good luck


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## abailey (10 March 2013)

bryony89 said:



			Thanks for all the comments, wellybaggins I would be interested to hear what other treatments you try and how much success you have, hope it goes well. For those who did go down the barefoot route for navicular, will you stay barefoot? Or do you intend to eventually put them back in shoes? What sort of dietary changes are advised for navicular horses? I will discuss all this with the trimmer but its good to have an idea before hand! And finally those who've used rockley farm; what do they provide there other than the different surfaces? I'm reluctant to send him away so wondered if its possible to create a similar environment at home.
		
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I have PM'd you  x


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## abailey (10 March 2013)

donald. said:



			My horse was diagnosed with navicular last September at the time he was sound in a straight line 2/10 lame when lunged on the soft and 4/10 lame lunged on the hard.  The vet firstly recommended tildren and IRAP. Following the 10 weeks box rest he was then 6/10 lame in a straight line, so the vet recommend bar shoes.  10 months of him being sound hes now lame again. The vets have said theres nothing else they can do so after much consideration I decided to have his shoes taken of yesterday by a barefoot trimmer so fingers crossed.
		
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 ...well done!  I went barefoot 6 months ago and we're now 100% sound and looking sooo good  (it took around 4 months though)  I know its early days for us but my mare feels and looks so different now.  Please, please get the diet right as it really works..happy to tell you our 'story' if you like
A xx


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## bryony89 (15 March 2013)

I too took the plunge today after much thought, and have had his shoes taken off. Fingers crossed its the right thing to do for him!


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