# Rescuers create horses that need rescued.



## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

Hi all
Please don't buy rescues, as you are creating the demand for them, which unscrupulous suppliers/dealers will profit from.

I understand that you do it with the best of intentions (and a certain feel good factor from posting about your good deeds, perhaps).

But think - the supplier is using your 'fuel' money or '£50 fee' to produce the next larger crop of neglected, ecto and endoparasite-ridden, malnourished and badly conformed equidae thanks to your help.  You are colluding in equine misery. 

If they are well cared for meat horses - let them go for meat.  If they are not, report the owners to the police, BHS, WHW, Etc, and let action be taken against them to prevent a recurrence.

Please don't fund this.
S


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## twiggy2 (14 July 2014)

people will not listen


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

twiggy2 said:



			people will not listen
		
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I know.  I still have to say it.
S


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## cptrayes (14 July 2014)

Completely agree Shils, it's very misguided, if understandable


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## The Fuzzy Furry (14 July 2014)

Thank you Shils, I do wish people would take note.
Too many popping up on fb at present regaling about their 'rescue' from going for meat


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## Clare85 (14 July 2014)

I completely agree with you. To me, it's the same as buying a puppy from a puppy farm. I'm not sure how to make people see it though. I think the charities should be leading the way in educating people.


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## JFTDWS (14 July 2014)

Indeed.


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## Greylegs (14 July 2014)

I totally agree with you, but ..... On the other hand ... my friend showed me her 4yo "rescue" today. She got it from the meat man for 40 quid as a 14 month old scrag and turned it out with her retired mare to grow up (after administering some much needed medical care) .... Today, its a handsome, 15hh cob with lovely action, a great temperament and the potential to make her a great hack/club horse. She's given it a lot of time due to its poor start so its about to be backed now, but she's got herself a cracker ... sometimes, these situations do work out.


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## Ibblebibble (14 July 2014)

it can work if the 'rescuer' has more than a single brain cell and knows one end of a horse from the other, sadly most of them are brainless twits who think that killing anything is evil because all lickle ponies are gawjuss and deserve to be loved and cuddled !


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

She's given the meat man (or his supplier) funds to treat more horses badly.  This is not furthering the cause of equine welfare.

Of course, if your point is that your friend got a bargain (ignoring the selfish disregard for welfare that implies) I'd suggest you add up the cost of vet bills, four years keep etc.  That money could have gone to a decent stud, which looks after it's stock, thus keeping them in business instead of Mr Dodgy.

S


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## cptrayes (14 July 2014)

Greylegs said:



			I totally agree with you, but ..... On the other hand ... my friend showed me her 4yo "rescue" today. She got it from the meat man for 40 quid as a 14 month old scrag and turned it out with her retired mare to grow up (after administering some much needed medical care) .... Today, its a handsome, 15hh cob with lovely action, a great temperament and the potential to make her a great hack/club horse. She's given it a lot of time due to its poor start so its about to be backed now, but she's got herself a cracker ... sometimes, these situations do work out.
		
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But she could have bought an unbroken four year old for the amount that it's cost her to get right and keep for four years, and not contributed to the breeding of more of the  poor creatures.



GMTA  Shils,  cross posted.


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## cobgoblin (14 July 2014)

You are talking bunk Shilasdair. Most of the unwanted foals are colts. The sort of people that breed them want the filly foals but not the colts, so they go for meat. The fact that a few people buy a very few of these colts and rescue them from the meat man will make absolutely no difference, they will be bred anyway!
Often these animals have very good breeding because the owner is hoping for a filly.
Nothing wrong with a bit of humanity. I take my hat off to those on here that have rescued horses.


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## thatsmygirl (14 July 2014)

Every horse these days seem to be a rescue!!! Don't think most people would know a proper rescue if it hit them round the face. 
What do u class as a rescue? Cause every horse in my area was a rescue!! Regardless of where it comes from but I have seem a few very poor horses make cracking horses.


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## Kaylum (14 July 2014)

The slaughter house is the worlds worst place for an animal to end up but it's far worse for a horse. WHW went undercover in one of them the video will shock you.


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## cptrayes (14 July 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			You are talking bunk Shilasdair. Most of the unwanted foals are colts. The sort of people that breed them want the filly foals but not the colts, so they go for meat. The fact that a few people buy a very few of these colts and rescue them from the meat man will make absolutely no difference, they will be bred anyway!
Often these animals have very good breeding because the owner is hoping for a filly.
Nothing wrong with a bit of humanity. I take my hat off to those on here that have rescued horses.
		
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Most of the fillies also sell for peanuts through places like Dragon driving, with buyers thinking they are'saving' those as well. Shils'  point is not wrong, it just doesn't go far enough.

Let's be honest, the rescue which prompted this thread, Oreo, has poor hind end conformation and is going to grow up into a deeply ordinary little coloured cob worth less than he has cost to get to four years old. His 'rescuer' would, imo, have done better for horse welfare to have let him go for meat, saved the money he's costing her, and supported a reputable stud to get hold of the kind of horse she really wanted, which was a bigger animal.

I do admit that the thread is very enjoyable for her and other people though, so it does have some merit


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## thatsmygirl (14 July 2014)

This is going to be a mega thread 

NO a slaughter house is NOT the worst place to end up. What is worst is people buying them and the rescue ends up NEEDING to be RESCUED. 

Kaylem you show little knowledge


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

They breed horses for cash.  They retain the fillies to breed more poorly conformed, badly started stock.  They sell the colts and the fuel, fees, payments go to keeping this third rate business going, at the expense of equine welfare.

If there are not welfare concerns, then they are not 'rescues', will be appropriate weight, wormed, vaccinated, gelded, passported.  This is not the case - and 'rescuers' perpetuate the cruelty by funding it.

If you want to help, donate to an equine charity, report horses to the authorities, re home through a charity or give your money to a decent, caring stud.

It's not rocket science.
S


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## Equi (14 July 2014)

Could not agree more. I'm sick to the teeth of seeing "rescue horse for sale £50 to ensure a good home" when in reality it probably came to them free from a good home and was starved for a week or two and let into a field to roll so it would look abused.


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## Clare85 (14 July 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			You are talking bunk Shilasdair. Most of the unwanted foals are colts. The sort of people that breed them want the filly foals but not the colts, so they go for meat. The fact that a few people buy a very few of these colts and rescue them from the meat man will make absolutely no difference, they will be bred anyway!
Often these animals have very good breeding because the owner is hoping for a filly.
Nothing wrong with a bit of humanity. I take my hat off to those on here that have rescued horses.
		
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I believe in many cases the 'breeders' of these poor creatures have no intention of them going for meat. It would cost them too much money to raise them correctly and to fork out for the proper documentation. Why would they do that when they know they can pull on the heart strings of kind hearted, well meaning people who just can't leave them in the state they are kept? If you have hundreds of horses who've cost you little, if anything to bring into the world, you've made a decent amount if you sell each one for £50.

I would rather give my hard earned money to a reputable breeder who has given their animal a good start in life, or rescue from a charity. If there is no market for these poor horses then they will have to stop allowing them to multiply indefinitely.


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## JFTDWS (14 July 2014)

Kaylum said:



			The slaughter house is the worlds worst place for an animal to end up but it's far worse for a horse. WHW went undercover in one of them the video will shock you.
		
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I've been in slaughter houses in the UK and been very impressed with the welfare standards and the checks in place to ensure compliance.


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## Gloi (14 July 2014)

Kaylum said:



			The slaughter house is the worlds worst place for an animal to end up but it's far worse for a horse. WHW went undercover in one of them the video will shock you.
		
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I don't agree with the way they were treated in that video but at least at the slaughter house they are only suffering for a short time, some of the people that "rescue" them and have no idea about their care cause them to suffer for years.


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

Kaylum, I'm willing to bet you've never been to a slaughterhouse nor watched a horse being PTS?
Go to Potters - ask to watch.  Go out with your vet to see a horse euthanised.  
All horses die; as a horse lover (and owner) you have a responsibility to be informed so you can give your horse a good death.
S


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## Equi (14 July 2014)

thatsmygirl said:



			What do u class as a rescue? .
		
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Very good point. One of mine came to me cause her owner had let her go. Her feet were hideously overgrown, she had not been wormed or groomed, had rainscald. However i don't call her a rescue, she was just a pony whos owner had got dementia and forgot to care for her properly. I stepped in and shes right as rain and he now asks about her every week cause he remembers about her now. I call it helping out an old man with his pony. 

If he had just decided not to look after her anymore because he wasn't making any money off her, then i would call her a rescue.


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## Kaylum (14 July 2014)

thatsmygirl said:



			This is going to be a mega thread 

NO a slaughter house is NOT the worst place to end up. What is worst is people buying them and the rescue ends up NEEDING to be RESCUED. 

Kaylem you show little knowledge
		
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Really my point has been missed breeding for meat is unnecessary no horse needs to end up being killed in a slaughter house. It's the worlds worst place for a horse to end up. I have plenty of knowledge thanks.


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## Moomin1 (14 July 2014)

Oh I couldn't agree more. It saddens me when I see people falling for this trick, and also that every single bloomin' horse that 'looks sad in a photo' or was going for meat but bought for a dime is a 'rescue'.  

When you've given a final few moment's comfort to a severely emaciated, collapsed, sore ridden horse that has been neglected, before taking the owner to court and seeing they never legally keep another animal again, then that's a rescue. Not lining the pockets of the very perpetrators who get away with it time and time again...


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## Moomin1 (14 July 2014)

Kaylum said:



			Really my point has been missed breeding for meat is unnecessary no horse needs to end up being killed in a slaughter house. It's the worlds worst place for a horse to end up. I have plenty of knowledge thanks.
		
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Not necessarily.  It depends on the slaughterhouse.


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## doriangrey (14 July 2014)

This original post makes me angry - :/.  I know in my head it makes perfect sense - but rather than having a pop at the odd person who makes what seems an irrational rescue  ... just for one second put yourself in the boots of the rescuee.  Makes a huge difference to their - not insignificant life.  I'm finding it hard at the moment to reconcile what seems to be criticism levelled in this way.


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## cptrayes (14 July 2014)

Kaylum said:



			The slaughter house is the worlds worst place for an animal to end up but it's far worse for a horse. WHW went undercover in one of them the video will shock you.
		
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Kaylum this isn't true. There are far worse places for horses to end up than with a quick death in an abattoir. British abbatoirs would not shock me, and I do not support live export, I think it should be banned and that the money spent rescuing these animals would be much better spent on that campaign.


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## Moomin1 (14 July 2014)

doriangrey said:



			This original post makes me angry - :/.  I know in my head it makes perfect sense - but rather than having a pop at the odd person who makes what seems an irrational rescue  ... just for one second put yourself in the boots of the rescuee.  Makes a huge difference to their - not insignificant life.  I'm finding it hard at the moment to reconcile what seems to be criticism levelled in this way.
		
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It makes a huge positive (sometimes) difference to that one horse, and a huge negative (almost always) difference to hundreds of others....


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## Amymay (14 July 2014)

Kaylum said:



			Really my point has been missed breeding for meat is unnecessary no horse needs to end up being killed in a slaughter house. It's the worlds worst place for a horse to end up. I have plenty of knowledge thanks.
		
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So you're vegetarian?


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

Kaylum said:



			Really my point has been missed breeding for meat is unnecessary no horse needs to end up being killed in a slaughter house. It's the worlds worst place for a horse to end up. I have plenty of knowledge thanks.
		
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If you think a slaughterhouse is 'the world's worst place for a horse to end up' you are extremely naive/ill-informed.
Seriously, do your research; you owe it to your horses.
S


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## Kaylum (14 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			If you think a slaughterhouse is 'the world's worst place for a horse to end up' you are extremely naive/ill-informed.
Seriously, do your research; you owe it to your horses.
S 

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Lol will do thanks for your professional advice


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## Clare85 (14 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			It makes a huge positive (sometimes) difference to that one horse, and a huge negative (almost always) difference to hundreds of others....
		
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This.


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

doriangrey said:



			This original post makes me angry - :/.  I know in my head it makes perfect sense - but rather than having a pop at the odd person who makes what seems an irrational rescue  ... just for one second put yourself in the boots of the rescuee.  Makes a huge difference to their - not insignificant life.  I'm finding it hard at the moment to reconcile what seems to be criticism levelled in this way.
		
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1. It's not 'the odd person' anymore; there's a growing market for 'rescue' animals.
2. I'm sure a lot of the 'rescuers' do feel good about themselves - but this is at the expenses of, rather than in the cause of equine welfare.  Surely they could forego the 'you are such a lovely person, hun' adulation for the sake of the horses they purport to love?
You know it makes rational sense.
S


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## Highlands (14 July 2014)

The created that's get a few poor horses, advertise then fleece people is not good. I'm a soft touch too so yes I would probably get sucked in... As for horses going for slaughter, healthy nothing wrong with them yes that is wrong but over bred bad conformation and often poor ill stock why not? Are first highland was rescued from slaughter as thank god potters refused to put down a mare in foal. Emerald gave us 18 years of pleasure before we lost her. All the other trekking ponies were destroyed a great waste and now thank goodness the highland world does not allow this . But dart moors, welshies and new forests all have this.


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## Moomin1 (14 July 2014)

Highlands said:



			The created that's get a few poor horses, advertise then fleece people is not good. I'm a soft touch too so yes I would probably get sucked in... As for horses going for slaughter, healthy nothing wrong with them yes that is wrong but over bred bad conformation and often poor ill stock why not? Are first highland was rescued from slaughter as thank god potters refused to put down a mare in foal. Emerald gave us 18 years of pleasure before we lost her. All the other trekking ponies were destroyed a great waste and now thank goodness the highland world does not allow this . But dart moors, welshies and new forests all have this.
		
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Why is it wrong to send a healthy horse to slaughter?  The cows, sheep and pigs we send to slaughter are healthy.


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

I agree, Highlands, with the point I think you are making; there is an over-supply at the meat quality end of the market.  We need to reduce incentives to the breeders, rather than rewarding them with cash.
S


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## Highlands (14 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Why is it wrong to send a healthy horse to slaughter?  The cows, sheep and pigs we send to slaughter are healthy.
		
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Nothing, I would much rather a horse had a dignified end then a an uncertain future, just could be a waste as someone might indeed be looking for that animal type and it could gave many hours of pleasure. Just don't like anything being seen as a disposable asset and a easy option.


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## JFTDWS (14 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			I agree, Highlands, with the point I think you are making; there is an over-supply at the meat quality end of the market.  We need to reduce incentives to the breeders, rather than rewarding them with cash.
S 

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And increase the incentives to responsible breeders in doing so.


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## Highlands (14 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			I agree, Highlands, with the point I think you are making; there is an over-supply at the meat quality end of the market.  We need to reduce incentives to the breeders, rather than rewarding them with cash.
S 

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An incentive also to geld too, many are left not castrated as its expensive and more than the animals resell value.


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## Clare85 (14 July 2014)

Highlands said:



			Nothing, I would much rather a horse had a dignified end then a an uncertain future, just could be a waste as someone might indeed be looking for that animal type and it could gave many hours of pleasure. Just don't like anything bring seen as a disposable asset and a easy option.
		
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Of course there are good animals who have potential going to slaughter. However, we have too many horses in this country and not enough homes. Therefore, there are thousands of horses in the midst of a welfare crisis, who are suffering. We cannot help them all, it is just not possible. We should not be lining the pockets of those who are multiplying and multiplying these horses  without any thought for their welfare. They shouldn't be disposable but it is a sad fact of our current situation, that many of them will have to be. It's heart breaking


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## doriangrey (14 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			1. It's not 'the odd person' anymore; there's a growing market for 'rescue' animals.
2. I'm sure a lot of the 'rescuers' do feel good about themselves - but this is at the expenses of, rather in the cause of equine welfare.  Surely they could forego the 'you are such a lovely person, hun' adulation for the sake of the horses they purport to love?
You know it makes rational sense.
S 

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Tbh .. seriously if anything is being 'rescued' (horse, cat, dog, goldfish.. whatever) as long as it is being 'rescued' with the appropriate knowledge, kindness and the funds to do it ... then why the judgement?  There have already been posts on here from people who have not been able to rehome animals due to what may seem unreasonable demands about sleeping arrangements, turnout, fencing (not from me I might add).  What the **** is going on when you can't give a lost life a home without it turning into some kind of witch hunt?  Is a 'rescue' life more important in some way than a 'meat colt', 'brood mare' ... etc etc? Who decides which is the most important, is it the monetary value against emotional value?


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## Casey76 (14 July 2014)

Many times the colts end up in worse places with their "rescuer" than if they had been sent to a quick, painless end at an abattoir.


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## Cinnamontoast (14 July 2014)

Nothing wrong with slaughtering a horse for meat and I would hope it was healthy if it is destined for the human food chain. Far better for it to be slaughtered here than to be transported live abroad in horrific conditions. 

'Rescuing' a meat colt is no different than buying a puppy farmed pup as already mentioned, it just makes room for more, simple, and the one pocketing the money just produces more because it gets him or her cash. A very straightforward equation. It's not judging, it's something that shouldn't occur because it's a perpetual cycle which ensures it keeps happening. :frown3:


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## Clare85 (14 July 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Tbh .. seriously if anything is being 'rescued' (horse, cat, dog, goldfish.. whatever) as long as it is being 'rescued' with the appropriate knowledge, kindness and the funds to do it ... then why the judgement?  There have already been posts on here from people who have not been able to rehome animals due to what may seem unreasonable demands about sleeping arrangements, turnout, fencing (not from me I might add).  What the **** is going on when you can't give a lost life a home without it turning into some kind of witch hunt?  Is a 'rescue' life more important in some way than a 'meat colt', 'brood mare' ... etc etc? Who decides which is the most important, is it the monetary value against emotional value?
		
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The point is, that people buying these neglected ponies from their unscrupulous creators means there's a market. Therefore, the 'breeder' continues to allow more and more and more foals to be born and neglected. It's a vicious cycle. 

Would you buy a puppy from a puppy farm?


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## Fun Times (14 July 2014)

Casey76 said:



			Many times the colts end up in worse places with their "rescuer" than if they had been sent to a quick, painless end at an abattoir.
		
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But the same can be said of any inexperienced buyer of any horse. I would rather advocate an experienced horseperson who has the expertise and financial means to secure the future of a "rescue" horse than a "pony for christmas" type buyer acquire a horse from a reputable seller. I dont think it necessarily follows that meat man = good, "rescue home" = bad.


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Tbh .. seriously if anything is being 'rescued' (horse, cat, dog, goldfish.. whatever) as long as it is being 'rescued' with the appropriate knowledge, kindness and the funds to do it ... then why the judgement?  There have already been posts on here from people who have not been able to rehome animals due to what may seem unreasonable demands about sleeping arrangements, turnout, fencing (not from me I might add).  What the **** is going on when you can't give a lost life a home without it turning into some kind of witch hunt?  Is a 'rescue' life more important in some way than a 'meat colt', 'brood mare' ... etc etc? Who decides which is the most important, is it the monetary value against emotional value?
		
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Firstly, many rescuers don't have the appropriate knowledge, or the long term interest to commit to looking after these animals.  I have lost track of the number of behaviourally difficult 'rescues' which are advertised free to a good home due to 'a change in circumstances'.  They are nearly always 'not novice ride' and yet are of such poor type and quality that no experienced rider would be interested in them.  Better they not be rescued.

We need to value all lives - by not funding indiscriminate breeding of low quality horses 'rescues' in an already saturated market.

S


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## Archangel (14 July 2014)

This latest trend of Rescue by Facebook seems to be a variant of the Franch thing from a few years ago.


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

Fun Times said:



			But the same can be said of any inexperienced buyer of any horse. I would rather advocate an experienced horseperson who has the expertise and financial means to secure the future of a "rescue" horse than a "pony for christmas" type buyer acquire a horse from a reputable seller. I dont think it necessarily follows that meat man = good, "rescue home" = bad.
		
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But financially secure experienced horse people/ decent riders won't touch these low end rescues with a barge pole.  Ex racehorses, yes, because they'll do a job for them.
Not usually these natives/cobs.
S


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## Cinnamontoast (14 July 2014)

RebelRebel said:



			This latest trend of Rescue by Facebook seems to be a variant of the Franch thing from a few years ago.
		
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Crikey, don't mention Franch! :eek3:


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## Moomin1 (14 July 2014)

Fun Times said:



			But the same can be said of any inexperienced buyer of any horse. I would rather advocate an experienced horseperson who has the expertise and financial means to secure the future of a "rescue" horse than a "pony for christmas" type buyer acquire a horse from a reputable seller. I dont think it necessarily follows that meat man = good, "rescue home" = bad.
		
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It matters not whether 'some' of the 'rescuers' of these horses are experienced horse people. The point is they are keeping the market going, which in turn will mean that the bunny hugging, no idea people out there are still able to 'rescue' more.  As I said earlier, it's a case of 'save a life, condemn hundreds of others to neglect'.


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## cobgoblin (14 July 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Tbh .. seriously if anything is being 'rescued' (horse, cat, dog, goldfish.. whatever) as long as it is being 'rescued' with the appropriate knowledge, kindness and the funds to do it ... then why the judgement?  There have already been posts on here from people who have not been able to rehome animals due to what may seem unreasonable demands about sleeping arrangements, turnout, fencing (not from me I might add).  What the **** is going on when you can't give a lost life a home without it turning into some kind of witch hunt?  Is a 'rescue' life more important in some way than a 'meat colt', 'brood mare' ... etc etc? Who decides which is the most important, is it the monetary value against emotional value?
		
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We'll put Doriangrey!
In fact you could argue that rehousing from a rescue centre perpetuates the problem, and let's face it, not all the rescue centres are that brilliant.


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## RaposadeGengibre (14 July 2014)

Kaylum said:



			Really my point has been missed breeding for meat is unnecessary no horse needs to end up being killed in a slaughter house. It's the worlds worst place for a horse to end up. I have plenty of knowledge thanks.
		
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Why?
......


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## jofwigby (14 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			Hi all
Please don't buy rescues, as you are creating the demand for them, which unscrupulous suppliers/dealers will profit from.

I understand that you do it with the best of intentions (and a certain feel good factor from posting about your good deeds, perhaps).

But think - the supplier is using your 'fuel' money or '£50 fee' to produce the next larger crop of neglected, ecto and endoparasite-ridden, malnourished and badly conformed equidae thanks to your help.  You are colluding in equine misery. 

If they are well cared for meat horses - let them go for meat.  If they are not, report the owners to the police, BHS, WHW, Etc, and let action be taken against them to prevent a recurrence.

Please don't fund this.
S 

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1st Point - We are getting to the point with these ponies where we are being "played". I think there is now a trend in rescues and the "20 colts to go for meat unless . . . " is a sick twisted way for these people to get rid of their unwanted, sick etc animals so they can just breed more.

2nd Point - having had the misfortune to see some poor poor animals being starved, denied vet treatment etc etc very recently - you are misguided if you think any of the authorities "will act to prevent a reoccurance".

I have no moral problem with horses going for meat - however the current situation with meat ponies is that they are not regulated in any form. DEFRA are not interested because they are not " farm" animals.

Trading Standards are not interested in checking any passports or chips - i have this in writing.

So yes, we're not stupid, we know the score but until there is something that prevents animals being treated this way - let's save a few from the misery.

PS the lady who saved the pony hardly sounds like a frigging novice, she's got the room and obviously the TLC so why not ?


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## Fun Times (14 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			It matters not whether 'some' of the 'rescuers' of these horses are experienced horse people. The point is they are keeping the market going, which in turn will mean that the bunny hugging, no idea people out there are still able to 'rescue' more.  As I said earlier, it's a case of 'save a life, condemn hundreds of others to neglect'.
		
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My response was not related to this principle and was specifcally drafted to avoid anyone assuming it was. It was instead directed at the specific post that implied rescuers give the horse a poorer destination than the meatman. My response was that this is not necessarily accurate.


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## cobgoblin (14 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			But financially secure experienced horse people/ decent riders won't touch these low end rescues with a barge pole.  Ex racehorses, yes, because they'll do a job for them.
Not usually these natives/cobs.
S 

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Not true! Wouldn't touch an ex-racehorse but would definitely go for a native or cob.


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## Moomin1 (14 July 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			We'll put Doriangrey!
In fact you could argue that rehousing from a rescue centre perpetuates the problem, and let's face it, not all the rescue centres are that brilliant.
		
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Are you for real?!  How does rehoming from a rescue centre perpetuate the problem in any way whatsoever?! Rescue centres (reputable ones anyway) do not line the pockets of the unscrupulous breeders and dealers of these horses. If anything, they do everything in their power to strip them of their business.


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## cptrayes (14 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			But financially secure experienced horse people/ decent riders won't touch these low end rescues with a barge pole.  Ex racehorses, yes, because they'll do a job for them.
Not usually these natives/cobs.
S 

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And the experienced people who would buy low end horses to bring on and sell don't because the market is so skewed by these throwaways that it's impossible to make any money by properly producing even the slightly better made ones.

It's the same with ex racers these days. So many of them available free or for peanuts, that it's impossible to find a good home at a price that makes them worth retraining. I gave up buying them for that reason.


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## Clare85 (14 July 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			We'll put Doriangrey!
In fact you could argue that rehousing from a rescue centre perpetuates the problem, and let's face it, not all the rescue centres are that brilliant.
		
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If you take a horse from a rescue centre then you are not perpetuating the problem. Those horses have been seized and the neglectors have not profited. If you buy a horse directly from the neglectors then you are perpetuating the problem by lining their pockets.

To have a horse from a rescue centre, they have already been treated for whatever issues they have, and they have been rehabilitated. Your home and knowledge is checked and they give you the horse only if you are suitable.

The neglectors couldn't give two hoots about the homes they sell their horses to.


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			Not true! Wouldn't touch an ex-racehorse but would definitely go for a native or cob.
		
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You, cob goblin are 'an anomaly' 

There are far more novices, than experienced riders in the UK (same is true of all sports).
S


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## cptrayes (14 July 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			Not true! Wouldn't touch an ex-racehorse but would definitely go for a native or cob.
		
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As an experienced horse owner with the money to keep a good horse, would you choose a horse with the conformation and size of these rescues to spend all that money to keep and train for three years?


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## stencilface (14 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Are you for real?!  How does rehoming from a rescue centre perpetuate the problem in any way whatsoever?! Rescue centres (reputable ones anyway) do not line the pockets of the unscrupulous breeders and dealers of these horses. If anything, they do everything in their power to strip them of their business.
		
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This. Having just rehomed two from whw, they were a bargain, far cheaper than a meat colt, and no sob story either 

And they're pretty cute too.


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## cobgoblin (14 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Are you for real?!  How does rehoming from a rescue centre perpetuate the problem in any way whatsoever?! Rescue centres (reputable ones anyway) do not line the pockets of the unscrupulous breeders and dealers of these horses. If anything, they do everything in their power to strip them of their business.
		
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The 'meat' colts are valueless to these breeders. That is why they are neglected  abandoned or dumped or sold at market for a few pounds. 
The more spaces there are at rescue centres, the more animals they can take in, the breeders won't care if these animals are taken from them.
Prosecuting these people will make very  little difference in the end, there will always be another member of the family to take over the business of over-breeding.


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## martlin (14 July 2014)

I did actually buy 2 colts, because I have a need for them, not because I wanted to rescue anything, am I excused?


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## cptrayes (14 July 2014)

martlin said:



			I did actually buy 2 colts, because I have a need for them, not because I wanted to rescue anything, am I excused?
		
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Did you work out what they are actually going to cost you to end up with what you want, which is presumably not a pair of parasite riddled stallions?  I'll bet they'll cost you as much as my well made unbroken four year old cob did  by the time they are ready to ride.

Nothing to excuse, as far as I'm concerned, you're entitled to buy them if you want them


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## Moomin1 (14 July 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			The 'meat' colts are valueless to these breeders. That is why they are neglected  abandoned or dumped or sold at market for a few pounds. 
The more spaces there are at rescue centres, the more animals they can take in, the breeders won't care if these animals are taken from them.
Prosecuting these people will make very  little difference in the end, there will always be another member of the family to take over the business of over-breeding.
		
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Yes, prosecuting them will make little difference, so long as there are mugs out there who keep lining the pockets and making it a profitable business for these breeders.  If people stopped, they wouldn't have a business, and the real rescue centres (not someone who thinks they have rescued a horse by paying £50 to stop it being slaughtered) could focus on real neglect, rather than having to pick up every coloured cob dumped on every corner of land going...


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## martlin (14 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Did you work out what they are actually going to cost you to end up with what you want, which is presumably not a pair of parasite riddled stallions?  I'll bet they'll cost you as much as my well made unbroken four year old cob did  by the time they are ready to ride.

Nothing to excuse, as far as I'm concerned, you're entitled to buy them if you want them 

Click to expand...

I'm perfectly aware what they are going to cost me over the years, but as I said, I had the need for a couple of colts, not a well made 4 year old, as I found myself with a single colt foal in a yard full of mares/fillies  They were actually in very decent nick, passported, chipped, wormed and well fed, but they are a NF and a NFx respectively, so the ''bottom end'' of the market. They are also decently put together and well bred


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## YorksG (14 July 2014)

The closure of so many smaller slaughter houses years ago was the first factor in this sorry situation. Then the fact that horses are travelled live to the continent, without any pretence of the welfare laws being observed, adds to it. There being no central database of equine passports is unhelpful, to say the least. Some of the behaviours of the more "established" breeders also doesn't help, not registering the ones with genetic problems with the breed societies and then selling them at 'bargain' prices to the unwary. 
The horse population of the UK is larger than that of those able to provide safe, knowledgable homes, horses with poor conformation, inherited problems and health issues as a result of grazing on land with poisonous plants, should IMO be culled for their and the larger equine populations good.


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## cptrayes (14 July 2014)

martlin said:



			I'm perfectly aware what they are going to cost me over the years, but as I said, I had the need for a couple of colts, not a well made 4 year old, as I found myself with a single colt foal in a yard full of mares/fillies  They were actually in very decent nick, passported, chipped, wormed and well fed, but they are a NF and a NFx respectively, so the ''bottom end'' of the market. They are also decently put together and well bred 

Click to expand...

Ah, so you didn't mean from the Oreo bunch then, I misunderstood you and I'm not sure well bred ponies come into what Shils means.


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## doriangrey (14 July 2014)

Clare85 said:



			If you take a horse from a rescue centre then you are not perpetuating the problem. Those horses have been seized and the neglectors have not profited. If you buy a horse directly from the neglectors then you are perpetuating the problem by lining their pockets.

To have a horse from a rescue centre, they have already been treated for whatever issues they have, and they have been rehabilitated. Your home and knowledge is checked and they give you the horse only if you are suitable.

The neglectors couldn't give two hoots about the homes they sell their horses to.
		
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I understand all of these arguments .. but does it matter to the horse though.  When did we forget that we are not talking about robots, but a living/breathing/sentient being not thinking of themselves as 'rescues' or 'meat colts', they might - just might (as we do) want to be alive and living.

EDT .. got a bit off track


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## Moomin1 (14 July 2014)

doriangrey said:



			I understand all of these arguments .. but does it matter to the horse though.  When did we forget that we are not talking about robots, but a living/breathing/sentient being not thinking of themselves as 'rescues' or 'meat colts', they might - just might (as we do) want to be alive and living.
		
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And so might the hundreds of others..

I'm sorry but all these 'do gooders' 'rescuing' these types of horses really anger me. I understand what some of them think they are doing, but really, it is just selfish.  They are creating a huge welfare problem and then they are quite often the very same people who moan and moan that the welfare organisations 'don't do anything' about the situation (when they are bursting at the seams with healthy dumped cobs taking up space which truly neglected horses should be), when in reality it is them who are causing it by funding the breeders.


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## martlin (14 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Ah, so you didn't mean from the Oreo bunch then, I misunderstood you and I'm not sure well bred ponies come into what Shils means.
		
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No, not a rescue bunch, I'm not that mad  Nevertheless, they are a part of the general larger population of unwanteds, mainly because of their gender, to be fair.


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## Honey08 (14 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Ah, so you didn't mean from the Oreo bunch then, I misunderstood you and I'm not sure well bred ponies come into what Shils means.
		
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I find the pact that one member of this forum's pony is being referred to frequently a bit below the belt.  Can you not just refer generally to meat ponies rather than keep knocking one poster.  You may not think you are knocking them, but it seems a bit rude to me.


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

martlin said:



			No, not a rescue bunch, I'm not that mad  Nevertheless, they are a part of the general larger population of unwanteds, mainly because of their gender, to be fair.
		
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They aren't rescues, you paid someone who made sure they were in good nick, vaccinated etc, and they were wanted - by you.
Get off my thread with your red herring horses. 
S


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## martlin (14 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			They aren't rescues, you paid someone who made sure they were in good nick, vaccinated etc, and they were wanted - by you.
Get off my thread with your red herring horses. 
S 

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They weren't vaccinated, don't be silly, they were £200 the pair delivered


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## cptrayes (14 July 2014)

Honey08 said:



			I find the pact that one member of this forum's pony is being referred to frequently a bit below the belt.  Can you not just refer generally to meat ponies rather than keep knocking one poster.  You may not think you are knocking them, but it seems a bit rude to me.
		
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As you rightly point out, I am not knocking anyone. I have also acknowledged what a lot of pleasure that thread is giving to his owner and other readers.

FWIW, I don't think they are meat ponies, or they would simply be sent for meat. They are horse equivalent puppy farmed animals, even the fillies..


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

Honey08 said:



			I find the pact that one member of this forum's pony is being referred to frequently a bit below the belt.  Can you not just refer generally to meat ponies rather than keep knocking one poster.  You may not think you are knocking them, but it seems a bit rude to me.
		
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I have 20k plus posts without ever being banned, so I'm clearly not prone to personal attacks on others.
Yet.  
S


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2014)

The RSPCA and WHW and the like are in no different than any member of the public anyone has the right to 'rescue ' a horse and give it a better life .
When I was a welfare officer I met many people who went the distance to help a horse in need who crossed their path and I salute these people .
Personally I have always been conflicted about this question why is it ok that a large charity takes in a huge load of welshies say and spends a fortune on them but it's wrong for an individual to make a difference to the life of an animal who touches them .
This is a complicated area it's down to luck the lives horses have .
So it's ok for charities to rehome completely useless horses who will only be lawn mowers but people are not allowed to take in a horse whose plight touches them .
I do agree that lots of people purchasing at sales are not really rescuing they are buying cheap horses in need of a home .
I don't see this as a black and white area


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## Clare85 (14 July 2014)

doriangrey said:



			I understand all of these arguments .. but does it matter to the horse though.  When did we forget that we are not talking about robots, but a living/breathing/sentient being not thinking of themselves as 'rescues' or 'meat colts', they might - just might (as we do) want to be alive and living.

EDT .. got a bit off track 

Click to expand...

But the point is that people are enabling the 'breeders' of these horses by buying them, therefore making way for more and more to be born and mistreated and then sold onto goodness knows where. We need to look at the bigger picture and realise that the only way to stop these horses from being mistreated in this way is to stop paying money for them. As I said in my earlier post, we simply do not have enough homes for them all and most would have been better off not entering this world at all. They need to stop bing brought into the world in the first place - the only way to stop this is to make the market disappear. It's a pretty dismal, bottom end market, but ATM it is there nonetheless.

Of course all creatures want to be alive and living. That's nature. Unfortunately, the sad fact of our current welfare crisis means that this is not possible for all. It does break my heart, really it does, but we can't save them all and we have to be realistic and find long term solutions for the huge problem we have. Buying them all is not a solution - they will just produce more and more and more.


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## Echo Bravo (14 July 2014)

As usual Shils talks sense, but having bought a meat colt, sense didn't come into it and yes he's cost me a lot of money, he's not going to be a beauty, jumping or dressage but my OH loves him to pieces, he's a character in his own right. But I am lucky enough to own my own land and stables, make my own hay, straw and shavings I buy in and can afford any vet bills. Those that have a place to keep them for life go and buy, those that don't think very hard because you could buy something that will really suit you down to the ground or buy a meat animal that will still cost you the same amount, my youngster who is now 3 years old will never be ridden, such a young age to be a paddock lawn mower for the next 20 years and yes I do wish I'd walked away.


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## Cherryade (14 July 2014)

I wholeheartedly agree with the point made by the OP. The number of welfare cases, unwanted ponies or even 'meat horses' is not decreasing yet increasing so obviously the 'rescue' plan isnt working somewhere. 
It also seems nearly every one has a rescue or has rescued their horse, no-one now simply buys a horse it has to be 'rescued' therefore private ads aren't selling forcing prices lower and more and more dodgy dealers coming out of the wood work making a profit out of the bad situation.
They aren't 'meat' ponies just in poor condition which tugs on heart strings. If people stopped buying they would either stop breeding or up their game a little.
Supply and demand, coloured cobs became popular-look at the issue now mainly with coloured cobs!


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			And so might the hundreds of others..

I'm sorry but all these 'do gooders' 'rescuing' these types of horses really anger me. I understand what some of them think they are doing, but really, it is just selfish.  They are creating a huge welfare problem and then they are quite often the very same people who moan and moan that the welfare organisations 'don't do anything' about the situation (when they are bursting at the seams with healthy dumped cobs taking up space which truly neglected horses should be), when in reality it is them who are causing it by funding the breeders.[/QUOTE

Devils advocate time
Send the healthy dumped colts to slaughter and free up space .
If it's ok for ponies to go from auctions to slaughter it's ok to send these colts isn't it 
Because that's what would happen to lots of them if they had not ended up with a big charity .
It's a bit rich for a supporter of big charities who store up lots of equines to blame people who decide to give an unlucky horse a better life
		
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## Honey08 (14 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			I have 20k plus posts without ever being banned, so I'm clearly not prone to personal attacks on others.
Yet.  
S 

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I wasn't referring to you, I don't think you'd mentioned Fide's horse by name had you?  While your thread may have been spurred by that, it at least remained general rather than personal in it's comments.  That's the way it should be, in my opinion.  Whatever people's opinions on Oreo he is now someone's own pony, so people should be a bit more thoughtful.  

That's all I wanted to say, people can take it on board or disregard it, I'm not getting into a 40 page "Preloved" saga on the matter!


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

Taking horses is not the problem - as long as no money changes hands you are not incentivising the production of more low end equidae by breeders who compromise horse welfare.
Charities don't pay, so they are morally acceptable.  As soon as you give someone £50 for an emaciated weanling, you have PAID for the horse to be maltreated - and the next one, and so on, perpetuating the cruelty.
S


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## Moomin1 (14 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:





Moomin1 said:



			And so might the hundreds of others..

I'm sorry but all these 'do gooders' 'rescuing' these types of horses really anger me. I understand what some of them think they are doing, but really, it is just selfish.  They are creating a huge welfare problem and then they are quite often the very same people who moan and moan that the welfare organisations 'don't do anything' about the situation (when they are bursting at the seams with healthy dumped cobs taking up space which truly neglected horses should be), when in reality it is them who are causing it by funding the breeders.[/QUOTE

Devils advocate time
Send the healthy dumped colts to slaughter and free up space .
If it's ok for ponies to go from auctions to slaughter it's ok to send these colts isn't it 
Because that's what would happen to lots of them if they had not ended up with a big charity .
It's a bit rich for a supporter of big charities who store up lots of equines to blame people who decide to give an unlucky horse a better life
		
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Oh GS, you really should know better than that.  It's Joe Public who are the very people who cause an uproar about charities putting healthy animals to sleep.  It's Joe Public who are creating the problem, firstly by funding the crisis, and secondly by slating charities who pts.
		
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## Goldenstar (14 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			Taking horses is not the problem - as long as no money changes hands you are not incentivising the production of more low end equidae by breeders who compromise horse welfare.
Charities don't pay, so they are morally acceptable.  As soon as you give someone £50 for an emaciated weanling, you have PAID for the horse to be maltreated - and the next one, and so on, perpetuating the cruelty.
S 

Click to expand...

I won't condemn people who don't walk away from a horse that crosses their path.


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Devils advocate time
Send the healthy dumped colts to slaughter and free up space .
If it's ok for ponies to go from auctions to slaughter it's ok to send these colts isn't it 
Because that's what would happen to lots of them if they had not ended up with a big charity .
It's a bit rich for a supporter of big charities who store up lots of equines to blame people who decide to give an unlucky horse a better life
		
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I would have absolutely no objection to the humane euthanasia of excess stock.  I'd be happier still though, if we could reduce the quantity of horses bred, and improve the quality and health to improve their viable, healthy lives.

So pay your money to a decent breeder/dealer for quality horses in healthy condition.
S


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I won't condemn people who don't walk away from a horse that crosses their path.
		
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You are happy to fund cruelty?  Not me.
S


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## doriangrey (14 July 2014)

Clare85 said:



			But the point is that people are enabling the 'breeders' of these horses by buying them, therefore making way for more and more to be born and mistreated and then sold onto goodness knows where. We need to look at the bigger picture and realise that the only way to stop these horses from being mistreated in this way is to stop paying money for them. As I said in my earlier post, we simply do not have enough homes for them all and most would have been better off not entering this world at all. They need to stop bing brought into the world in the first place - the only way to stop this is to make the market disappear. It's a pretty dismal, bottom end market, but ATM it is there nonetheless.

Of course all creatures want to be alive and living. That's nature. Unfortunately, the sad fact of our current welfare crisis means that this is not possible for all. It does break my heart, really it does, but we can't save them all and we have to be realistic and find long term solutions for the huge problem we have. Buying them all is not a solution - they will just produce more and more and more.
		
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I'm not arguing the toss ..... tell it to the life you intend to end, they don't run for hell for nothing.  Of course we can't save them all and I don't have the answer to these disgusting, breeders/sellers - that's not my job because I'm pretty sure that there is someone getting paid an awful lot of money to regulate this kind of thing .. or not .. is there?  I'm just saying that to have a go at the odd person who want's to give an unfortunate, equine individual a better life should not be villified for it.


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## Moomin1 (14 July 2014)

doriangrey said:



			I'm not arguing the toss ..... tell it to the life you intend to end, they don't run for hell for nothing.  Of course we can't save them all and I don't have the answer to these disgusting, breeders/sellers - that's not my job because I'm pretty sure that there is someone getting paid an awful lot of money to regulate this kind of thing .. or not .. is there?  I'm just saying that to have a go at the odd person who want's to give an unfortunate, equine individual a better life should not be villified for it.
		
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No they shouldn't be personally attacked for it, however I also don't think they should be praised either tbh.  They should be made aware of the implications of what they have actually done in the larger picture. If that hits a sore point with them, then tough IMO.  They may well be of good intention (most are no doubt, though it's obvious on a lot of these FB sites etc that a lot of them just revel in the 'glory') but that's exactly why we are in the crisis we are in this country..


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

doriangrey said:



			I'm not arguing the toss ..... tell it to the life you intend to end, they don't run for hell for nothing.  Of course we can't save them all and I don't have the answer to these disgusting, breeders/sellers - that's not my job because I'm pretty sure that there is someone getting paid an awful lot of money to regulate this kind of thing .. or not .. is there?  I'm just saying that to have a go at the odd person who want's to give an unfortunate, equine individual a better life should not be villified for it.
		
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Yes, they should be vilified for paying someone to starve, neglect, inbreed low end horses.
S


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## cobgoblin (14 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			The RSPCA and WHW and the like are in no different than any member of the public anyone has the right to 'rescue ' a horse and give it a better life .
When I was a welfare officer I met many people who went the distance to help a horse in need who crossed their path and I salute these people .
Personally I have always been conflicted about this question why is it ok that a large charity takes in a huge load of welshies say and spends a fortune on them but it's wrong for an individual to make a difference to the life of an animal who touches them .
This is a complicated area it's down to luck the lives horses have .
So it's ok for charities to rehome completely useless horses who will only be lawn mowers but people are not allowed to take in a horse whose plight touches them .
I do agree that lots of people purchasing at sales are not really rescuing they are buying cheap horses in need of a home .
I don't see this as a black and white area
		
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A good post and said with humanity and understanding.
This is not a black and white area and there is no simple solution.
Anyone who wishes to 'rescue' a horse has the perfect right to do so, and yes, some of them will be inexperienced and equally some will know what they are doing.
I would never condemn someone for showing kindness. I cannot see how it is better to take a horse from a rescue centre than to 'rescue' one yourself. It is the horses that matter not ones petty opinions.


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			A good post and said with humanity and understanding.
This is not a black and white area and there is no simple solution.
Anyone who wishes to 'rescue' a horse has the perfect right to do so, and yes, some of them will be inexperienced and equally some will know what they are doing.
I would never condemn someone for showing kindness. I cannot see how it is better to take a horse from a rescue centre than to 'rescue' one yourself. It is the horses that matter not ones petty opinions.
		
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Either you don't understand how supply and demand works, or you think equine suffering is a small price to pay for the 'rescuer's' ego boost?

I can't believe you think it's ok to pay people to abuse horses; if I pay someone to kill my ex (tempting ) I'm still responsible.

Here's a BHS article that might help you understand the problem.

http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/press-centre/news/jan-to-jun-2014/rescue-me

S


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:





Goldenstar said:



			Oh GS, you really should know better than that.  It's Joe Public who are the very people who cause an uproar about charities putting healthy animals to sleep.  It's Joe Public who are creating the problem, firstly by funding the crisis, and secondly by slating charities who pts.
		
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Well the charities need the balls to say it like it is.
I just won't do the only charities can rescue animal thing there is no difference in a coloured colt who happens to have been incepted by a charity and a coloured colt at an auction.
The one at the auction is as sentient and the other .
		
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## Goldenstar (14 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			Either you don't understand how supply and demand works, or you think equine suffering is a small price to pay for the 'rescuer's' ego boost?

I can't believe you think it's ok to pay people to abuse horses; if I pay someone to kill my ex (tempting ) I'm still responsible.

Here's a BHS article that might help you understand the problem.

http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/press-centre/news/jan-to-jun-2014/rescue-me

S 

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This a deeply unpleasant view IMO it's not about ego for many people .
Sometimes a horse touches something in a MOP and they go to bat for it against the world I have watched this moment when a that spark touches someone and it's what I called a white knight moment .
It's special and part of our deepest humanity .


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## doriangrey (14 July 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			A good post and said with humanity and understanding.
This is not a black and white area and there is no simple solution.
Anyone who wishes to 'rescue' a horse has the perfect right to do so, and yes, some of them will be inexperienced and equally some will know what they are doing.
I would never condemn someone for showing kindness. I cannot see how it is better to take a horse from a rescue centre than to 'rescue' one yourself. It is the horses that matter not ones petty opinions.
		
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Well said, to both the above posts.  

ETA (To Goldenstar and Cobgoblins posts)


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## Shilasdair (14 July 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Well said, to both the above posts.
		
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You really are happy to pay someone to abuse a horse so that the rescuer can enjoy that 'white knight moment'?
I'm pretty saddened by this.   
I thought people were doing this through ignorance rather than design.
S 

ETA  I can't bring myself to converse further with you.  Urgh.


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## cobgoblin (14 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			Either you don't understand how supply and demand works, or you think equine suffering is a small price to pay for the 'rescuer's' ego boost?

I can't believe you think it's ok to pay people to abuse horses; if I pay someone to kill my ex (tempting ) I'm still responsible.

Here's a BHS article that might help you understand the problem.

http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/press-centre/news/jan-to-jun-2014/rescue-me

S 

Click to expand...

Yes I do understand about supply and demand and I do understand about the equine crisis. Oddly enough, I am not a moron! Nor do I think rescuing any animal leads to an ego boost, in fact I think it very often ends in heartbreak.
As for stating that I think it's ok to pay someone to abuse horses, well you should really be ashamed of that comment. What a vile thing to say simply because I do not share your point of view!


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			You really are happy to pay someone to abuse a horse so that the rescuer can enjoy that 'white knight moment'?
I'm pretty saddened by this.   
I thought people were doing this through ignorance rather than design.
S 


ETA  I can't bring myself to converse further with you.  Urgh.
		
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It's not a question of enjoying the moment .
You clearly only like conversing with people who agree with you .
Boring and urgh .


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## mandwhy (14 July 2014)

I do agree mostly, I wouldn't buy from these sources as that's what it is - buying, and I agree about supply and demand. However some of those ponies can go on to be perfectly useful and special to their owners even if they're not the best conformed, and a life is a life, they didn't choose who bred them.

Where do you draw the line though? I personally don't think anyone needed to breed ANY Welsh Section As this year for a start! Even if those studs are reputable, there are so many decent ponies around going for pittance. I have one that was used for equine flu vaccine testing. She's a decent and well bred little pony who was bred on a mountain with many others, I assume by some long serving 'stud' that thinks it has some sort of god given right to breed. I think some of the more reputable ones are worse because they are deluded about the market these days.


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## Ebenezer_Scrooge (15 July 2014)

cinnamontoast said:



			Crikey, don't mention Franch! :eek3:
		
Click to expand...

 Franchgate....I remember...



YorksG said:



			The closure of so many smaller slaughter houses years ago was the first factor in this sorry situation. Then the fact that horses are travelled live to the continent, without any pretence of the welfare laws being observed, adds to it. There being no central database of equine passports is unhelpful, to say the least. Some of the behaviours of the more "established" breeders also doesn't help, not registering the ones with genetic problems with the breed societies and then selling them at 'bargain' prices to the unwary. 
The horse population of the UK is larger than that of those able to provide safe, knowledgable homes, horses with poor conformation, inherited problems and health issues as a result of grazing on land with poisonous plants, should IMO be culled for their and the larger equine populations good.
		
Click to expand...

Good points & also maybe all breeding should be better regulated or controlled....though from my experiences of the human species this should be made compulsory too.... 

off on a tangent there sorry but tried to ring for help when I found a dog running in panic down a main road whilst on my motorbike & I turned round to go & catch her to keep her safe no rescue or warden would help & council put phone down on me as they only rescue in day!!!!! luckily.owners were driving round &they were reunited (dog slipped collar in panic& was new to area) owners were distraught over it.
eta....
Hello Shils...I was beginning to think you were never going to emerge from Hades.....


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## alainax (15 July 2014)

It seems there are a few issues, even just around the word "rescue".

Seems it's very cool to "rescue" horses ATM, every other horse on fb ( and many on here!) is a "rescue" . They didn't rescue it, they bought it. Often paying thousands for thier "rescue" . A horse which was previously adequately cared for, but now deemed to be rescued.... 

Rescuing to me, would be seeing a horse emaciated, or head collar embedding, or any number of horrible cruelties. Finding the owner and offering it a better life. You rescued it. Or failing that, noticing any of the above and finding a charity who will step in, you rescued it. 

Another  way would be adopting a rescue horse from a charity. 

Funding unscrupulous breeders, to keep breeding these poor beasts, isn't really rescuing  

Those who try to do so well by these poor mites, are surely trying to do what is right, and help the invididual they see before them, however I find it a bit like mopping up the water on the floor, before fixing the leak. We need to fix the leak...


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## doriangrey (15 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			You really are happy to pay someone to abuse a horse so that the rescuer can enjoy that 'white knight moment'?
I'm pretty saddened by this.   
I thought people were doing this through ignorance rather than design.
S 

ETA  I can't bring myself to converse further with you.  Urgh.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think you were quoting me but I will respond.  I wouldn't turn away from any animal in need because I wanted to make a point.  Who, legally is in charge and who is getting paid to regulate what is going on?  Not joe public that's for certain (but you can bet your bottom dollar they are paying for it), so before you start being disgusted over a few individuals taking on a couple of horses or cats or dogs or hamsters, meerkats whatever - why not get in touch with the local council and finding out why it's not being dealt with in an appropriate way?


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

alainax said:



			It seems there are a few issues, even just around the word "rescue".

Seems it's very cool to "rescue" horses ATM, every other horse on fb ( and many on here!) is a "rescue" . They didn't rescue it, they bought it. Often paying thousands for thier "rescue" . A horse which was previously adequately cared for, but now deemed to be rescued.... 

Rescuing to me, would be seeing a horse emaciated, or head collar embedding, or any number of horrible cruelties. Finding the owner and offering it a better life. You rescued it. Or failing that, noticing any of the above and finding a charity who will step in, you rescued it. 

Another  way would be adopting a rescue horse from a charity. 

Funding unscrupulous breeders, to keep breeding these poor beasts, isn't really rescuing  

Those who try to do so well by these poor mites, are surely trying to do what is right, and help the invididual they see before them, however I find it a bit like mopping up the water on the floor, before fixing the leak. We need to fix the leak...
		
Click to expand...

That does not mean it's wrong to mop the floor .


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## alainax (15 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			That does not mean it's wrong to mop the floor .
		
Click to expand...

If only we could do both at the same time. Surely there must be something which can be done...


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## Shilasdair (15 July 2014)

doriangrey said:



			I don't think you were quoting me but I will respond.  I wouldn't turn away from any animal in need because I wanted to make a point.  Who, legally is in charge and who is getting paid to regulate what is going on?  Not joe public that's for certain (but you can bet your bottom dollar they are paying for it), so before you start being disgusted over a few individuals taking on a couple of horses or cats or dogs or hamsters, meerkats whatever - why not get in touch with the local council and finding out why it's not being dealt with in an appropriate way?
		
Click to expand...

Ok, history lesson time.  
The British Isles are, well, islands so relied on a Navy.  Other European countries had land borders, so needed land forces - cavalry which resulted in state studs, but also in government regulation.
The UK government has never been motivated to regulate equidae, and excluded them from Agricultural classifications.  They were forced to introduce passports to comply with EU legislation, but decided to allow 55 plus PIOs.  It's a mess (as the horsemeat scandal revealed).  At the moment I have 3 passports but only 2 horses; this shouldn't happen.
So, no one regulates what is going on, aside from that covered by the Animal Welfare Act and associated legislation.
Therefore we, the horse lovers, need to act where we can - individuals can make a difference.   I do voluntary work for one of the charities.
S 

Edited to wave at Ebenezer Scrooge!


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## honetpot (15 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			You really are happy to pay someone to abuse a horse so that the rescuer can enjoy that 'white knight moment'?
I'm pretty saddened by this.   
I thought people were doing this through ignorance rather than design.
S 

ETA  I can't bring myself to converse further with you.  Urgh.
		
Click to expand...

For 30 years or so I have been going to horse auctions and managed never to part with any money, even the very sad looking ones an the ones so hungry they have been rummageing around bedding for any scrap of food. My reason, I refuse to line the pockets of dealers an auctioneers with their smart cars that make a profit from this trade. Has this made me feel good, no.
 In spring of last year I took a colt that was waiting in the police pound to be shot, totally illogical has cost me a fortune but I can afford it. Will probably live longer than me and really its a waste of resources but does it make me feel good, yes. We have to be honest with ourselves, all humans seem to have a bit of a god complex and we do like a make over and its the ultimate make over. Its not hard, give most animals a brush and plenty of food and they soon start to look better, but really we have just put the problem on hold. I had a friend who was rehoming an exracer out of training that looked a  bit rough, I offered to have it to put some weight on it but said she would have more chance of rehoming if it was a bit skinny as people would want to save it, and low and behold someone did. Its  sad when its easier to home a hat rack than something that looks well looked after, the horse had actually had the best of everything but had been unwell.  
 I support horse charities that give animals a purpose, I think the Donkey sanctuary owns 3000 donkeys, you couldn't buy a donkey at one point and they had inflated their value, but people love to give money to save cute donkeys so dealers started importing them and breeding again to sell, so now we have a surplice of donkeys again.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

The repeal of the stallion act was the first huge mistake .
But I don't think we could put that genie back in the bottle .
Having the prosecution of welfare cases in the hands of a charity and not the cps is another .


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## Meowy Catkin (15 July 2014)

Kaylum said:



			The slaughter house is the worlds worst place for an animal to end up
		
Click to expand...

*sigh* 

I've been following the the Templars Stud case that has been discussed on arabianlines as one of my grey's half brother is one of the horses that is possibly dead. I hope that when the sentencing is done that all the people who sold horses to the Peels will find out if theirs are dead or alive.

http://www.arabianlines.com/forum1/topic_new.asp?TOPIC_ID=54906

Just read the last post on the first page and decide if it's better to have a quick end or be shut in a barn to thirst and starve until you die.

Slaughter houses need high standards, strict regulations and regular checks. They must not be banned. you only have to look at the horses that are transported live from the US to see why banning horse slaughter doesn't work.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

Faracat you are so right we must must not lose our equine slaughter houses that would be the ultimate disaster .


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## honetpot (15 July 2014)

If your interested in trying to get the government to use the existing regulations could you please sign this http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/66742 
http://hopeforhorses.co.uk/


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## Fides (15 July 2014)

Seeing as my name has been mentioned on here, I'd better respond.

The meat colt problem needs sorting - but this won't happen whilst 'coloured cobs' are popular. I upset someone on here who posted about wind knots - I asked 'Who would want to steal a coloured cob?'. Apparently they are popular... Popularity creates demand. Some of the unscrupulous will send the colts for meat - they are not bred for meat, buying a colt isn't creating a space for more as they are a byproduct of producing mares.

Some of the colts going for meat aren't bad animals - the fillies appear to sell for a price similar to some quite reasonably bred Sec Ds. It's just these dreadful people treat them as a product and a commodity and selling for meat will get them more than gelding and selling on as a riding horse.

There is another side to the story as well - 14 of the horses in the Oreo example were actually bought by someone who, themselves sold them for meat. They aren't all 'rescued'.

I hate the word rescue - it's so emotive. A lot of the horses in true rescues IMO should be sent for meat - the ones with no ridden future who are only ever going to be a companion. Who needs a 16h2 ex hunter with arthritis as a companion? Most would opt for a sec a or shettie.

I have failed to adopt from a rescue. One refused me because my fencing was barb and I wouldn't replace with post and rail - 1m55 electric fencing on the mains isn't enough in the event of a power failure. One charity had a bat-poo-crazy owner who had some weird FB conspiracy against her neighbour - steered clear of all that! Another who would have given me a horse - well that all ended in tears. I backed a couple of horses for them at their yard so they could be homed, then when they were short on grazing I took a TB mare for backing for a few weeks. 8 months later they were still refusing to take her back, citing no space, despite taking on 9 more horses. I ended up issuing them an abandonment notice as I didn't have the facilities at the time to keep a poor doer over the winter (plus it was supposed to be grass livery and not set me out of pocket as it was a favour). So that didn't happen. The last one offered me a Suffolk Punch - as they are now being investigated by the ILPH I decided to give that one a miss. I was still looking on horses4homes for either a little un as a companion or a big in that my OH could ride. And then all the stuff with the meat colts happened and the rest is history...

IMO the only way to stop it is to regulate breeders far more tightly than is being done. Having it that passports cannot be issued retrospectively so they have to go either for meat or to a charity. I also think that live export should be stopped. There is a big enough pet food market for these animals without exporting weedy yearlings to the continent.

Previously I have been in the 'kill it' camp but this plight caught me on a bad day. All the reports of them being wrestled to the ground by 3 men just did it for me. Rightly or wrongly I have a colt. I have the space, resources and facilities to deal with him. And I have the experience.

The thread I started wasn't supposed to be an 'aren't I a good person?' Type thread, but a warning for those considering taking one on, just what is involved. My thread was aimed specifically at discouraging people from doing it and also raising awareness of what goes on.

The same for the article in the paper - it wasn't to say 'look at me I rescued a horse'. My interview raised points about how these animals have no value so are being sent to slaughter and the same thing happens every year.

So yes I am a soft touch, I wouldn't say I have denied a true rescue a home as they wouldn't give me one anyway... Maybe I am precipitating the problem, maybe not. They are not going to stop breeding them whilst someone wants the mares 

Oreo's future is still unclear - it all depends on the size he makes. Of small enough he will stay with me for life as a lead rein pony for potential mini-fides. I do think though that he will probably make nearer the 13h mark. If he does I will back him and find a home for him where he can be a 2nd pony to someone. Whatever happens he isn't going to be Chappy. 

And the pony that seems to have caused all this uproar. The disease riddled, mongrel cob with terrible conformation, a poor back end and no future...

I'm sorry but I wasn't hard hearted enough to let him die. Maybe I should have but he is mine now.







Content 







But after that essay - yep totally agree with the OP.


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## doriangrey (15 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			Ok, history lesson time.  
The British Isles are, well, islands so relied on a Navy.  Other European countries had land borders, so needed land forces - cavalry which resulted in state studs, but also in government regulation.
The UK government has never been motivated to regulate equidae, and excluded them from Agricultural classifications.  They were forced to introduce passports to comply with EU legislation, but decided to allow 55 plus PIOs.  It's a mess (as the horsemeat scandal revealed).  At the moment I have 3 passports but only 2 horses; this shouldn't happen.
So, no one regulates what is going on, aside from that covered by the Animal Welfare Act and associated legislation.
Therefore we, the horse lovers, need to act where we can - individuals can make a difference.   I do voluntary work for one of the charities.
S 

Edited to wave at Ebenezer Scrooge! 

Click to expand...

You really don't do any favours to yourself by offering me a history lesson - patronising much?  When someone pays me a fat wage for sorting out the passport system for equines I promise I'll do a good job  I already stated in my posts that imo there is nothing wrong with people who have the knowledge and money to buy and care for whichever horse they want.  If I wanted to do it tomorrow I could, I have the land and the money and enough knowledge to do it.  Would I?  No personally, but I'm not going to judge someone with the goodness of heart who wants to.  It's the drawing of lines that gets to me, I might not agree with everyone on what makes one horse's life more important than another and who gets the right to choose.  That's fair enough.  Fwiw I know where you are coming from but I'm uncomfortable of making the choice.  You think you have an equine crisis in the UK?  I live in the ROI, here's a link that might interest you http://www.thejournal.ie/horse-welfare-ireland-1252307-Jan2014/


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## Shilasdair (15 July 2014)

doriangrey said:



			You really don't do any favours to yourself by offering me a history lesson - patronising much?  When someone pays me a fat wage for sorting out the passport system for equines I promise I'll do a good job  I already stated in my posts that imo there is nothing wrong with people who have the knowledge and money to buy and care for whichever horse they want.  If I wanted to do it tomorrow I could, I have the land and the money and enough knowledge to do it.  Would I?  No personally, but I'm not going to judge someone with the goodness of heart who wants to.  It's the drawing of lines that gets to me, I might not agree with everyone on what makes one horse's life more important than another and who gets the right to choose.  That's fair enough.  Fwiw I know where you are coming from but I'm uncomfortable of making the choice.  You think you have an equine crisis in the UK?  I live in the ROI, here's a link that might interest you http://www.thejournal.ie/horse-welfare-ireland-1252307-Jan2014/

Click to expand...

You asked 'who, legally is in charge and who is getting paid to regulate what is going on?'.   You even suggested it was the council's responsibility (that begins and ends with licensing riding schools)!
I explained to you that no one does, and the context of that.
Now you say 'When someone pays me a fat wage for sorting out the passport system...' which suggests that either you didn't read, or didn't understand my post.    If you are concerned about horses in ROI (and yes, I think you should be given all that I've read) then contact your regulating authorities and/or act as an individual.  
S


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

Fantastic post Fides. I thought the main motivation for your post was pretty clear, to let people know the true cost of taking on a horse like Oreo. And now he has a fan club he is actually bringing some happiness to more people's lives than yours and his. I wish you luck with him.

I'm sorry if it was a problem that I named him but I thought it was pretty clear already which thread prompted Shils post. If I was wrong about that I'm sorry.

Like you do, I agree with her, but I do wish you and Oreo well.


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## jofwigby (15 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			The repeal of the stallion act was the first huge mistake .
But I don't think we could put that genie back in the bottle .
Having the prosecution of welfare cases in the hands of a charity and not the cps is another .
		
Click to expand...




honetpot said:



			If your interested in trying to get the government to use the existing regulations could you please sign this http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/66742 
http://hopeforhorses.co.uk/

Click to expand...

This


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## widget (15 July 2014)

The local authority animal health inspectors are the named inspectors under the animal welfare act and so do have both the responsibility and powers to act- not to mention the funding. They can also do stop checks on passports too, so far more responsibility than just inspecting riding schools!


Shilasdair said:



			You asked 'who, legally is in charge and who is getting paid to regulate what is going on?'.   You even suggested it was the council's responsibility (that begins and ends with licensing riding schools)!
I explained to you that no one does, and the context of that.
Now you say 'When someone pays me a fat wage for sorting out the passport system...' which suggests that either you didn't read, or didn't understand my post.    If you are concerned about horses in ROI (and yes, I think you should be given all that I've read) then contact your regulating authorities and/or act as an individual.  
S 

Click to expand...


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## jofwigby (15 July 2014)

widget said:



			The local authority animal health inspectors are the named inspectors under the animal welfare act and so do have both the responsibility and powers to act- not to mention the funding. They can also do stop checks on passports too, so far more responsibility than just inspecting riding schools!
		
Click to expand...

Let me tell you they may may have the responsibility but they do not have the inclination.  Leicestershire Trading Standards have stated they will not check any horses for passports. We were hoping they could be used to sort out the situation at Fosse Park.  

There are currently nearly 50 horses there - all burnt on the buttercups. 2 stallions running with the herds. Mares having bad foalings left for days to struggle. Injuries you wouldnt believe. 

No passports,  no veterinary attention, no one is bothered unless you can see them dying from the road. The vast majority of fatalities are in the field behind Police Headquarters !


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

Fides said:



			Seeing as my name has been mentioned on here, I'd better respond.

The meat colt problem needs sorting - but this won't happen whilst 'coloured cobs' are popular. I upset someone on here who posted about wind knots - I asked 'Who would want to steal a coloured cob?'. Apparently they are popular... Popularity creates demand. Some of the unscrupulous will send the colts for meat - they are not bred for meat, buying a colt isn't creating a space for more as they are a byproduct of producing mares.

Some of the colts going for meat aren't bad animals - the fillies appear to sell for a price similar to some quite reasonably bred Sec Ds. It's just these dreadful people treat them as a product and a commodity and selling for meat will get them more than gelding and selling on as a riding horse.

There is another side to the story as well - 14 of the horses in the Oreo example were actually bought by someone who, themselves sold them for meat. They aren't all 'rescued'.

I hate the word rescue - it's so emotive. A lot of the horses in true rescues IMO should be sent for meat - the ones with no ridden future who are only ever going to be a companion. Who needs a 16h2 ex hunter with arthritis as a companion? Most would opt for a sec a or shettie.

I have failed to adopt from a rescue. One refused me because my fencing was barb and I wouldn't replace with post and rail - 1m55 electric fencing on the mains isn't enough in the event of a power failure. One charity had a bat-poo-crazy owner who had some weird FB conspiracy against her neighbour - steered clear of all that! Another who would have given me a horse - well that all ended in tears. I backed a couple of horses for them at their yard so they could be homed, then when they were short on grazing I took a TB mare for backing for a few weeks. 8 months later they were still refusing to take her back, citing no space, despite taking on 9 more horses. I ended up issuing them an abandonment notice as I didn't have the facilities at the time to keep a poor doer over the winter (plus it was supposed to be grass livery and not set me out of pocket as it was a favour). So that didn't happen. The last one offered me a Suffolk Punch - as they are now being investigated by the ILPH I decided to give that one a miss. I was still looking on horses4homes for either a little un as a companion or a big in that my OH could ride. And then all the stuff with the meat colts happened and the rest is history...

IMO the only way to stop it is to regulate breeders far more tightly than is being done. Having it that passports cannot be issued retrospectively so they have to go either for meat or to a charity. I also think that live export should be stopped. There is a big enough pet food market for these animals without exporting weedy yearlings to the continent.

Previously I have been in the 'kill it' camp but this plight caught me on a bad day. All the reports of them being wrestled to the ground by 3 men just did it for me. Rightly or wrongly I have a colt. I have the space, resources and facilities to deal with him. And I have the experience.

The thread I started wasn't supposed to be an 'aren't I a good person?' Type thread, but a warning for those considering taking one on, just what is involved. My thread was aimed specifically at discouraging people from doing it and also raising awareness of what goes on.

The same for the article in the paper - it wasn't to say 'look at me I rescued a horse'. My interview raised points about how these animals have no value so are being sent to slaughter and the same thing happens every year.

So yes I am a soft touch, I wouldn't say I have denied a true rescue a home as they wouldn't give me one anyway... Maybe I am precipitating the problem, maybe not. They are not going to stop breeding them whilst someone wants the mares 

Oreo's future is still unclear - it all depends on the size he makes. Of small enough he will stay with me for life as a lead rein pony for potential mini-fides. I do think though that he will probably make nearer the 13h mark. If he does I will back him and find a home for him where he can be a 2nd pony to someone. Whatever happens he isn't going to be Chappy. 

And the pony that seems to have caused all this uproar. The disease riddled, mongrel cob with terrible conformation, a poor back end and no future...

I'm sorry but I wasn't hard hearted enough to let him die. Maybe I should have but he is mine now.







Content 







But after that essay - yep totally agree with the OP.
		
Click to expand...

Fides you had one of those white knight moments it's not right or wrong it just happened 
I had one once when I lived in Turkey it was a cat though not a horse .
I do think if need to regulate one thing more tightly it would be the charities particularly the small ones .


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## honetpot (15 July 2014)

Environmental Health Officers are supposed to check where and how farm animals are kept, its part of their job given to them by DEFRA because farm animals enter the human food chain, they are not interested in horses. Trading Standards are supposed to check horse passports, I think its a vary low priority on their list when then have counterfeit goods causing harm to humans and I wonder how many would be able to check a passport in a field. The police and CPS are quite happy for the RSPCA to bring private prosecutions  as its not coming out of their budget. Its all a mess.


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## Merrymoles (15 July 2014)

Enforceable stallion licences - no licence, stallion confiscated and PTS. That might prevent some of the poor in-bred stock where colts are left running with the herd


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

jofwigby said:



			Let me tell you they may may have the responsibility but they do not have the inclination.  Leicestershire Trading Standards have stated they will not check any horses for passports. We were hoping they could be used to sort out the situation at Fosse Park.  

There are currently nearly 50 horses there - all burnt on the buttercups. 2 stallions running with the herds. Mares having bad foalings left for days to struggle. Injuries you wouldnt believe. 

No passports,  no veterinary attention, no one is bothered unless you can see them dying from the road. The vast majority of fatalities are in the field behind Police Headquarters !
		
Click to expand...

Because the state have handed over the responsibility for dealing with animal welfare prosecutions  to a charity who has the right to pick and choose what they do.
If the responsibility for dealing with rested firmly on the shoulders of the state they we the public would have a better chance of getting together and effecting change   
But all this costs money and I fear there will never be a appetite for the increase cost  to the tax payer .
There have of course been moves to make it easier for councils to remove and get rid of fly grazed horses and this is to be supported .


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## WindyStacks (15 July 2014)

I worry about the fields and fields of coloured cobs - and whilst no geneticist, I'm concerned by the rising numbers with blue eyes. It's all a ruddy great mess and I for one would rather they went to slaughter.

On that subject, it seems that not all abbatoirs are created equally. When I had my mare PTS I was living in the EU and it was very common for them to be taken directly to the abbatoir as they're very sensitive to ground contamination. We were asked to arrive first thing to a small, local abbatoir which only dealt with horses one day a week. When we arrived the place was being inspected by the ministry of agriculture and everything appeared to be running professionally. We chose to stay with her because of course you hear these horror stories of live transport and/or being re-sold and I needed to know it had been done. She was taken away to another section of the yard and put in a stable, front feet brought out and the job done. We left at that point because I had no desire to see how they were going to move her from there to the "factory".


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## honetpot (15 July 2014)

moleskinsmum said:



			Enforceable stallion licences - no licence, stallion confiscated and PTS. That might prevent some of the poor in-bred stock where colts are left running with the herd
		
Click to expand...

 I think that would just create another rule for them to ignore, remember they pay no heed to the rules already there. Foals should have to be passported by 3 months not six and the fee should be collected by one body and the money used to fund inspections and enforcement. Stud books should be kept separate and the passport over stamped.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

moleskinsmum said:



			Enforceable stallion licences - no licence, stallion confiscated and PTS. That might prevent some of the poor in-bred stock where colts are left running with the herd
		
Click to expand...

This might work an entire with no chip that linked to a licence , remove it and PTS it would have to be quick and easy for the councils or DEFRA to do or it could cost a fortune .


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## jofwigby (15 July 2014)

Exactly - and I am no fan of them - but it does seem that if you try to do anything you are labeled as a "do-gooder". 

The supporters of Fosse Park receive no support from the mainstream horse world. The majority of those people are un-horsey but have  written to every Government and Council Dept, protested, rewritten the Petition after being advised that the previous wording was wrong - and still less than 1000 signatures.

Whether destined for meat or not, there should be zero tolerance on cruelty & neglect.


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## Hetsmum (15 July 2014)

Shils I find your personal attack (which it is albeit veiled) quite disgusting. 

Goldenstar - you speak alot of sense and I agree with everything you have said.  I agree it is a head versus heart thing.

Fides - I take my hat off to you.  You have taken this with dignity.  In your shoes I would have done the same thing - if that makes me a bad person so be it.  I am not a fuffy bunny hugger but if I can make a difference to a life that I believe deserves a chance then so be it.

What gives the charities the right to 'rescue' but not an individual?  If that is the argument then charities should only exist to PTS, particularly the horses requiring medical attention and lengthy rehab.

If anyone needs attacking it is the authorities.  Stallions should be licenced, passports should be enforced and charities should not be left do the work that the government should be doing. 

Also I have little doubt that many of these colts are shipped abroad (illegally) for the meat trade as WHW have proven which is not a fate anyone should be happy with. 

I have said my piece and will participate no further


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## Merrymoles (15 July 2014)

honetpot said:



			I think that would just create another rule for them to ignore, remember they pay no heed to the rules already there. Foals should have to be passported by 3 months not six and the fee should be collected by one body and the money used to fund inspections and enforcement. Stud books should be kept separate and the passport over stamped.
		
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I agree it would be ignored. The real point behind all this is that we have no enforceable horse-related legislation and I can't see it happening any time soon. General livestock is highly regulated in terms of welfare, movement etc, but horses fall through the net. Even if we went through the equine equivalent of foot and mouth, things would not change as too few people's actual livelihood would be affected.

It would be costly to police and probably lead to bad PR (of "the Tories killed my pony" variety). Without an overarching enforcement agency which is actually responsible for checking passports on all equines (not just well-cared-for pets) etc, nothing will change.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			This might work an entire with no chip that linked to a licence , remove it and PTS it would have to be quick and easy for the councils or DEFRA to do or it could cost a fortune .
		
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I wish it would, but a very well bred and 100% traceable gelding that I sold for a lot of money had no readable chip, and if he'd been entire I'd have been a bit annoyed if someone had shot him instead of giving me a cheque for him


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

Can the people who want 'the authorities' to sort this out tell me whether they will look the cancer patient in the eye and explain why you think a horse's life is worth saving more than theirs?   There is not enough money in the whole economy to do it all.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I wish it would, but a very well bred and 100% traceable gelding that I sold for a lot of money had no readable chip, and if he'd been entire I'd have been a bit annoyed if someone had shot him instead of giving me a cheque for him 

Click to expand...

The issue is in a nut shell is with all lets just sort it 'fixes' for this issue there would always be collateral damage people would have to embrace that .
Just like perfectly friendly nice dogs can PTS just because they are a certainly type .
That's not fair either .


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Can the people who want 'the authorities' to sort this out tell me whether they will look the cancer patient in the eye and explain why you think a horse's life is worth saving more than theirs?   There is not enough money in the whole economy to do it all.
		
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And again no politician in the real world is going to take these choices .


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## Ladyinred (15 July 2014)

With apologies to thos of you who have taken this tread and turned it into an interesting debate.

Shils, I really thought better of you than to make an unjustified personal attack on another poster.

All I will say on this nasty thread is that Fides may not have changed the world for horses but she sure as heck has changed the world for one charming little colt. Much powerand respect to her.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (15 July 2014)

Hetsmum said:



			What gives the charities the right to 'rescue' but not an individual?  If that is the argument then charities should only exist to PTS, particularly the horses requiring medical attention and lengthy rehab.
		
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What you say about charities only existing to PTS makes no sense at all. Charities do rescue. They educate, advise and if nothing improves they confiscate the animal and possibly prosecute the owner. Individuals don't *rescue* they *purchase* just like any other sale and then incorrectly call it a rescue.


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## suestowford (15 July 2014)

I've bought a horse because I felt sorry for him. It didn't make me feel like a white knight, or god, or anything like that, just relieved that he was no longer so hungry or sad.


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## Spot On (15 July 2014)

Ill probably sound hypocritical seen how we have a rescue however our rescue was bred by us and fell on very hard times and would have to fed to his dogs had we not rescued him. I would never take on any animal (other than mikey) where I person offers any ultimatum be it if you don't buy this horse he is going to the factory or if you don't buy this horse I have someone who will. These people are just playing on your emotions.

Here in Ireland we have too many of those coloured cobs and while yes they could make nice hacks or riding club animal. There is just not enough homes for them and every time one is bought off these people they just breed more.


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## Shilasdair (15 July 2014)

There are a lot of people here who fail to grasp the point.
One more try.
Q - 'Why is it ok for a charity to rescue but not for me to buy a poor emaciated pony to love?'
A - Because charities don't buy the rescues, they are more likely to be 'gifted' or confiscate them with police support.  If you buy an emaciated horse, you are paying it's owner retrospectively for the abuse, and funding future abuses.

It's not rocket science - don't support people who don't look after their horses with cash, even if it makes you feel like a 'white knight'.

By all means, take anything you are gifted. Get one from a charity.  Just don't incentivise the production with cash rewards.

And as for personal attacks: it's a free world and if I can't bring  myself to speak to those of you who collude in cruelty, by buying thin and sick horses because you enjoy the 'white knight moment' more than you value horses' welfare -  that's my choice.  

S


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			What you say about charities only existing to PTS makes no sense at all. Charities do rescue. They educate, advise and if nothing improves they confiscate the animal and possibly prosecute the owner. Individuals don't *rescue* they *purchase* just like any other sale and then incorrectly call it a rescue.
		
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Some individuals do buy a cheap horse and call it a rescue .
But some individuals  do rescue and I have seen been involved with it and salute those who do it 
Charities certainly not the only way a horses gets rescued ,saved , gets it's situation changed whatever you want to label it as .
In fact all over the country every day people ,groups of people sort the issues of individual animals in need quietly and effectively sometimes someone involved with a charity is there at the edges as a facilitator often not .
This is the way it should be people done need the 'charities ' to do things if they have the inclination to solve problems then selves .


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## Jesstickle (15 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			Q - 'Why is it ok for a charity to rescue but not for me to buy a poor emaciated pony to love?'
A - Because charities don't buy the rescues, they are more likely to be 'gifted' or confiscate them with police support.  If you buy an emaciated horse, you are paying it's owner retrospectively for the abuse, and funding future abuses.

It's not rocket science - don't support people who don't look after their horses with cash, even if it makes you feel like a 'white knight'.
		
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Couldn't agree more.


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## Nettle123 (15 July 2014)

Taking the odd little colt and giving it an assured future will not make a damn bit of difference to these low end breeders, they will carry on as before anyway, its certainly not encouraging them. Fides had the means to take on an unwanted and had been refused by the charities, sometimes they are their own worst enemies.

I have no problem with horse slaughter in the UK for meat but those transported is another matter and surely that's what happens to the low end colts ?.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			There are a lot of people here who fail to grasp the point.
One more try.
Q - 'Why is it ok for a charity to rescue but not for me to buy a poor emaciated pony to love?'
A - Because charities don't buy the rescues, they are more likely to be 'gifted' or confiscate them with police support.  If you buy an emaciated horse, you are paying it's owner retrospectively for the abuse, and funding future abuses.

It's not rocket science - don't support people who don't look after their horses with cash, even if it makes you feel like a 'white knight'.

By all means, take anything you are gifted. Get one from a charity.  Just don't incentivise the production with cash rewards.

And as for personal attacks: it's a free world and if I can't bring  myself to speak to those of you who collude in cruelty, by buying thin and sick horses because you enjoy the 'white knight moment' more than you value horses' welfare -  that's my choice.  

S 

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You have completely missed my point about a white knight moment it's not about buying a cheap horse the thing I am talking about Its much more visceral than that sort of thing .
I have never colluded in cruelty, take  your choice go and live in your black and white world ,don't be interested in the views of others as you say it's your choice .
For me my time at the sharp end of all this and I have been at the sharp end right down there in it's underbelly it left me with more humility and insight into the human condition the good and the bad , ten years at it left me more cautious than I was at the start of condemning those who do things that I perhaps thought unwise .
It's complicated messy and deeply unpleasant but heaping blame on those who try perhaps misguidedly to help an individual animal is not the way forward IMO which even though it's not the same as yours I am entitled to have .


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## The Fuzzy Furry (15 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			There are a lot of people here who fail to grasp the point.
One more try.
Q - 'Why is it ok for a charity to rescue but not for me to buy a poor emaciated pony to love?'
A - Because charities don't buy the rescues, they are more likely to be 'gifted' or confiscate them with police support.  If you buy an emaciated horse, you are paying it's owner retrospectively for the abuse, and funding future abuses.

It's not rocket science - don't support people who don't look after their horses
		
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Yup, agreed 

Took out the white knight bit, as unnecessary really. Keep it succinct & to the point


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## ester (15 July 2014)

I think it is a conversation worth having. 

I do struggle with the concept of badly conformed/lamed/unrideable youngsters taking up charity spaces long term as there is limited requirement for them as companions and others could benefit from being brought on by the charity staff and setting them up for life. But then I also feel that ponies such as carrot and spud deserved a few years of a nicer life too - and if they do why not something younger. I don't think paying to rescue is rescueing (and this is a bit of an issue I think PFK have had too because they do buy a few, if they paid too much everyone would make their horses look worse so they would buy them), buying something cheap because it is what you want means there is a market for it (you  ) and it suits your needs.


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## jofwigby (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Can the people who want 'the authorities' to sort this out tell me whether they will look the cancer patient in the eye and explain why you think a horse's life is worth saving more than theirs?   There is not enough money in the whole economy to do it all.
		
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Wow where did that come from ?

The animals I know are "owned" and their owner should be made to pay for any expenses incurred if anyone has to take over his "duty of care". 

What is shameful is that there are Government & Council Depts that conveniently let the RSPCA take the lead, who choose what cases to prosecute. 

If DEFRA and the RSPCA took the "meat pony" bull by the horns, they could work out how to deal with these people who look upon these animals as stock but with none of the regulation.

But they will never do this unless we make them ! The fall in donations especially here in Leicester is catastrophic - yet us here campaigning are told the "dogs and cats are suffering" because we have been highlighting the dead and dying horses.

I am sorry if you think that I would ever put the welfare of an animal before that of a person.


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## ester (15 July 2014)

But the money for the government and council departments in order for them to do this has to come from somewhere that is CPT's point - and all services need more atm.


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## cobgoblin (15 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			There are a lot of people here who fail to grasp the point.
One more try.
Q - 'Why is it ok for a charity to rescue but not for me to buy a poor emaciated pony to love?'
A - Because charities don't buy the rescues, they are more likely to be 'gifted' or confiscate them with police support.  If you buy an emaciated horse, you are paying it's owner retrospectively for the abuse, and funding future abuses.

It's not rocket science - don't support people who don't look after their horses with cash, even if it makes you feel like a 'white knight'.

By all means, take anything you are gifted. Get one from a charity.  Just don't incentivise the production with cash rewards.

And as for personal attacks: it's a free world and if I can't bring  myself to speak to those of you who collude in cruelty, by buying thin and sick horses because you enjoy the 'white knight moment' more than you value horses' welfare -  that's my choice.  

S 

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Then I fail to see why you even started this thread, obviously you are right and everyone else's points of view are worthless. You do not even seem to have understood some of the points others are making. 'Grey areas' do not seem to exist in your little world.
Accusing others of colluding in cruelty, when plainly they do not,reflects more on yourself than on them.
If you cannot bring yourself to speak to such persons why on earth do you keep posting?


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## cobgoblin (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Can the people who want 'the authorities' to sort this out tell me whether they will look the cancer patient in the eye and explain why you think a horse's life is worth saving more than theirs?   There is not enough money in the whole economy to do it all.
		
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This is already happening and has been for years, and is about to get a lot worse. Not due to the cost of horses though-rather more due to our massive human welfare bill!


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

Only slightly tongue in cheek ,
We are all doomed .


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## _GG_ (15 July 2014)

Fides...
I wouldn't have expected any less of you than to have posted such a well reasoned, open and honest response. 

Shils - I agree 100% with what you have said on here, I don't think some of the comments about Oreo were really necessary though. 

I haven't posted on Fides thread, not for any particular reason, just haven't got around to it yet as it's a thread I would like to read in its entirety before posting. I have read through the first few pages though and it does come across to me to be a thread aimed at discouragement rather than support for rescuing. 

There is another side to this though, one which I don't think has been mentioned on here yet. 

When breeders like this act the way they did when Fides was pulled in, there will be a meat man and that meat man will very rarely take all of the animals. Invariably, the ones that the meat man leaves behind are the ones that are in most need of experienced care and not the type that should be sold to inexperienced homes that very often don't have have the funds needed, let alone experience to deal with them correctly. So...these horses, IMO are better to be taken by someone like Fides, so, UNTIL we can find a way to confront the problem head on, I would actually support other experienced and solvent people buy these horses as the alternative for the breeder is to abandon and let them starve to death. They can't sell them, can't breed from them and won't spend any money feeding them, so they are destined for a very miserable end to life.

That would be a very short term plan and part of the plan would be to create a database of these breeders through the sharing of knowledge. With that information, what I would then like to see is culling through charity. Thereby, a charity set up, taking donations to cover the cost of the humane disposal of these "surplus" horses under authority. No money changing hands and it would mean a new law being passed which takes a long time. It would however create a situation where any breeder was given a limit to the number of horses that could be legally sold to the meat man and that any horses bread over that number were not allowed to be sold and would instead, be culled under the new law. It would allow the breeder a certain freedom to breed and sell for meat, but it would remove the ability to sell into the open market, where nobody can argue the pitfalls and risks to the horses in the majority of cases. 

This, long term, would mean that people like Fides would be unable to buy such horses and that they would be killed humanely, which in itself, would create a huge backlash from the many many people who condemn any form of culling. It would create a huge backlash from the community at large. It's something I personally think needs to be done with dog breeders as well. 

The only way to create support for something like this is to increase education. Encourage people to go out and do their own research. I haven't read all of the thread, but there was a poster at the beginning mentioning a video made by WHW of horse slaughter in an abattoir. If you only want to see one side of an argument, you will only ever have a one sided opinion and you will also never hold the truth. It is vitally important, when looking at anything in life, to do your own, independent research and not just form opinions based on the biased propaganda of others. The video mentioned wasn't good, but nor was it a true reflection of the industry. Horse slaughter is a necessary thing and videos like that should serve to assist improvement, not create hate. 

It's very easy to say you have knowledge and experience by reading lots and looking at lots of videos but you have to remember that what you are reading and seeing is just another persons take on the truth, not the actual truth. If you really want to be able to stand and say you KNOW what you are talking about, you need to use your own feet to get to abattoirs and use your own eyes and ears to judge the system for yourself. Animals being killed is never pleasant, but it is certainly handled far far better than most people believe it is. I know that because I have been and seen it. I didn't enjoy it, but before I would send my pigs to slaughter, I damn well wanted to know the process and choose the best abattoir. Not one of the places I visited was anything less than professional with animal welfare paramount. 

This thread has been a useful one for many that may come here with little knowledge. The problem with a little knowledge is that it can get you into a lot of trouble. 

One day, when I have the time, I will look to develop a system to put to parliament for the improvement of welfare for dogs and horses in this country, but it is something I genuinely think I need to spend at least another 2 years researching before I can say that any ideas I have are going to work. At the moment, I just have ideas and they may well change significantly as my knowledge increases. 

That's the thing with all of this. There is no quick fix, there is no magic wand, so, for the time being, whilst I hate the idea of lining the pockets of these breeders and it's not something I will do myself, I cannot chastise people like Fides for acting on their hearts. Individuals, taking individual horses/ponies usually create a low risk for the horses they buy. It is the individuals that set up their own "rescues" and buy up horses in larger numbers from breeders and sales that really need to be getting the sharp end of this debate stick. They are the ones who end up overstocked and in trouble, leaving horses to become real rescue cases. 
It needs to be tackled one step at a time and I would begin by making it illegal to set up any form of rescue/charity/sanctuary without long and tedious set up processes and also make it illegal to accept any donations, monetary or otherwise for personally owned horses. Thereby, people like the lady from North Wales that set up her own rescue, as covered in the Daily Fail and took donations and gifts yet still allowed horses to suffer through overstocking, could be arrested and charged.

Obviously there are massive holes in everything I have said because if I were to type out in detail what my ideas are and why I have them, I would be here until Christmas, but my general point is that things really aren't always black and white and it's a very complex issue which IMO means that people like Fides are not always acting irresponsibly or creating more harm. Sometimes yes, always...no.


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## _GG_ (15 July 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			This is already happening and has been for years, and is about to get a lot worse. Not due to the cost of horses though-rather more due to our massive human welfare bill!
		
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True. It is an issue which needs tackling through private funding IMO.


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## amandap (15 July 2014)

I sit on the fence here as I don't believe buying meat ponies will influence the breeding of them. The meat and by product market drives that as well as a mind set of having horses as a side line and allowing them to breed indiscriminately.
There are also cultural reasons people breed this way and some will fight tooth and nail to retain their rights.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

amandap said:



			I sit on the fence here as I don't believe buying meat ponies will influence the breeding of them. The meat market drives that as well as a mind set of having horses as a side line and allowing them to breed indiscriminately.
There are also cultural reasons people breed this way and some will fight tooth and nail to retain their rights.
		
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The Cultural point is a very very good one .
It's part of the culture of a section of the population ( I am not talking about travellers here ) but there is a section of the urban population where this ad hoc breeding and keeping of horses is a form of currency both financially and socially it would make a great PhD study for someone .


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## ozpoz (15 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			The RSPCA and WHW and the like are in no different than any member of the public anyone has the right to 'rescue ' a horse and give it a better life .
When I was a welfare officer I met many people who went the distance to help a horse in need who crossed their path and I salute these people .
Personally I have always been conflicted about this question why is it ok that a large charity takes in a huge load of welshies say and spends a fortune on them but it's wrong for an individual to make a difference to the life of an animal who touches them .
This is a complicated area it's down to luck the lives horses have .
So it's ok for charities to rehome completely useless horses who will only be lawn mowers but people are not allowed to take in a horse whose plight touches them .
I do agree that lots of people purchasing at sales are not really rescuing they are buying cheap horses in need of a home .
I don't see this as a black and white area
		
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An uncomfortable truth, there Goldenstar.
We would all do better as human beings if we stopped trying to categorise our actions into too few boxes. It is not black and white. There are some excellent charities - and some compassionate knowledgeable individuals who won't close their eyes to an equine appeal in the flesh. It happens.


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## pennyturner (15 July 2014)

moleskinsmum said:



			Enforceable stallion licences - no licence, stallion confiscated and PTS. That might prevent some of the poor in-bred stock where colts are left running with the herd
		
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Not all stallions are used for breeding.  Mine are family ponies.  We don't keep mares, and have no intention of doing so, but keep a bachelor herd for riding, as is common in other countries.  Buster couldn't be licenced as he's monorchid.

Please don't have Buster PTS!


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

pennyturner said:



			Not all stallions are used for breeding.  Mine are family ponies.  We don't keep mares, and have no intention of doing so, but keep a bachelor herd for riding, as is common in other countries.  Buster couldn't be licenced as he's monorchid.

Please don't have Buster PTS!






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Laughs ,
Like I said the collateral damage would be terrible .
I can just see the daily fail page 2 stop this pony breeding madness , page seven heartless government rips buster from the arms of weeping children .
Lovely photograph PT .


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## suestowford (15 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			And as for personal attacks: it's a free world and if I can't bring  myself to speak to those of you who collude in cruelty, by buying thin and sick horses because you enjoy the 'white knight moment' more than you value horses' welfare -  that's my choice.  

S 

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It's also other people's choice to take no notice of those who ascribe their own motives to others. I don't much like people who decide what others are thinking and feeling without even bothering to ask. My choice.


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## _GG_ (15 July 2014)

ozpoz said:



			An uncomfortable truth, there Goldenstar.
We would all do better as human beings if we stopped trying to categorise our actions into too few boxes. It is not black and white. There are some excellent charities - and some compassionate knowledgeable individuals who won't close their eyes to an equine appeal in the flesh. It happens.
		
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I totally agree with Goldenstars post there too. There should be no reason that individuals who are capable of ensuring the long term care for horses cannot do it. Actually, private individuals would be far more likely in my opinion to destroy a horse that would be better off that way. I left working in welfare because it became too uncomfortable to me. I can't stand seeing a horse or pony put through months and months of extremely expensive treatment, enduring extreme pain and discomfort. Yes, there's a chance that a horse like that can be healthy eventually, but what amount of suffering is worth it. When I left, it was a pony, a little Welsh A that was collapsed and needed to be supported 24/7 with a sling for 9 months. 9 MONTHS of pain and misery and at the end of that, it was deemed that the pony would have no quality of life, so it was put to sleep, so called humanely. There was nothing humane about making that pony suffer for 9 long months. It was an exercise in self righteousness. Humans feeling better when their heads hit the pillow because they thought they were helping. No...helping would have been to put that poor pony to sleep at the start and be able to help a dozen or more others with the money saved. It's not comfortable to think that way, but it is the option that removes suffering and that is the option I will always take.


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## misskk88 (15 July 2014)

I am sure someone will have mentioned this at some point.... but 16 pages of reading I cannot handle this morning! 

There should be tougher laws and legislation around breeding and also owning ANY animal. People should have to hold licenses to breed and produce, and there should be an authoritive body to help ensure standards of care are maintained (and certainly NOT one that people can buy in to such as 'freedom farm's). I know that there will always be dodgy dealers who slip through the net but the only way to limit the excess of animals which creates the need for a huge majority of 'rescues' is to ensure that there is clear and precise law. This also means suitable punishment for those who choose to breed illegally, and I think a tougher stance on sentences for animal rights abusers can only bring about positive change. Sadly I do not see that happening though. We will continue to overbreed and overproduce and this goes for pets such as cats, dogs, horses and those destined for the meat industry such as cows, sheep, pigs AND horses.

As for the whole 'rescue' case, I see many passed off in this way, which actually are just a bit underweight, in need of some good general care and simply are no longer wanted- yet are claimed as 'rescues'. 

Some people do not understand the real genuine cases- many that will never fully recover and will forever have some sort of pain, behavioural problem or condition. I understand that sending these to slaughter is sometimes a better option than to allow them to fester where they are, or to allow them to be passed from one home to the next (cue facebook pages for these poor souls- I once read one free to a good home for breeding, but was clearly defined as a wobbler with behaviour issues *facepalm*). However, I also understand that as humans, we understand empathy and humanity and we will indeed help some horses who go on to be sucessful, well bred horses in loving homes. 

The culture of inexperienced owners should not be forgotten as this only fuels some of the points above, as many experienced people will know when an animal has a chance at successful recovery or not, while those with less of an eye for detail or understanding may think they are doing a good deed, when they are only prolonging suffering.

It makes me sad how greedy, selfish and consuming the human race (as a whole, not individuals!) are.


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## honetpot (15 July 2014)

The hole in this argument about getting owners to stop breeding meat horses is that most of them are not bred for meat, sending them for pet food, because they are not chipped is a by product. I can not fully understand it but a lot is cultural.

 I know a 91 year old horse dealer, bought for killing most of his life, he can remember the plough horses going straight from the field to be put on a train to be slaughtered. Even at 91 he has a field full of black and whites that he would have once sorted through and sold some privately and the rest would go to the abattoir. 

 There is very little meat on these small ponies, and supposedly  they need a passport to enter the human food chain.  The money is in young ex racehorses, they are passported and have a veterinary history. I think the main reason they keep breeding black and whites, welsh ponies and any other volume bred equine is because they have always done it. Look at farmers that still milk cows even though they get a pittance for the milk. I live in an area with a lot of traveller ponies, families have had them for generations, the high value ones are now small, heavy feathered and not black and white. In the good days some of these would be sold for a good profit, and there was plenty of land to keep them on, just like the rest of society they are having trouble finding places to keep them. Yes there will be breeders who churn them out for profit, but there are plenty of breeders of registered ponies that do that. No one seemed to have grasped 5-8 years ago the population was ageing and there would be less young people needing small ponies and coupled with the recession its made a bad situation worse.


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## 3OldPonies (15 July 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			Not true! Wouldn't touch an ex-racehorse but would definitely go for a native or cob.
		
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Cobgoblin - you't not an anomaly like someone so rudely said, I would go native or cob as well. 

I know I couldn't handle an ex-racehorse, I don't have the experience, but am experienced with cobs and natives so that is why it would be my decision as well.


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## doriangrey (15 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			You asked 'who, legally is in charge and who is getting paid to regulate what is going on?'.   You even suggested it was the council's responsibility (that begins and ends with licensing riding schools)!
I explained to you that no one does, and the context of that.
Now you say 'When someone pays me a fat wage for sorting out the passport system...' which suggests that either you didn't read, or didn't understand my post.    If you are concerned about horses in ROI (and yes, I think you should be given all that I've read) then contact your regulating authorities and/or act as an individual.  
S 

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I did read and understand your post and your being supercilious does nothing to help validate your point.  The local authority angle has been covered so I'm not going over that.  Firstly, equine welfare is at a crisis point and there are many, many reasons for this which have been covered above but to target a few individuals who have the compassion and wherewithal to make a difference to a horse's life is like saying 
ice cream vans are responsible for child obesity (and I'm not plucking that out of thin air, the govt were discussing banning ice cream vans for this very reason).  To suggest they do it for a 'feel good' moment is insulting.  More demand for horse-meat will mean more horses being produced - not less.  Regulations on the production and welfare of horses as a meat animal should be just as tight as any other meat animal imo - whether they are to enter the food chain or not.  Sitting and judging from your lofty perch solves nothing and helps no-one.


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## Moomin1 (15 July 2014)

doriangrey said:



			I did read and understand your post and your being supercilious does nothing to help validate your point.  The local authority angle has been covered so I'm not going over that.  Firstly, equine welfare is at a crisis point and there are many, many reasons for this which have been covered above but to target a few individuals who have the compassion and wherewithal to make a difference to a horse's life is like saying 
ice cream vans are responsible for child obesity (and I'm not plucking that out of thin air, the govt were discussing banning ice cream vans for this very reason).  To suggest they do it for a 'feel good' moment is insulting.  More demand for horse-meat will mean more horses being produced - not less.  Regulations on the production and welfare of horses as a meat animal should be just as tight as any other meat animal imo - whether they are to enter the food chain or not.  Sitting and judging from your lofty perch solves nothing and helps no-one.
		
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I get your point, but what I don't get is how anyone can possibly think it doesn't have an affect on the larger picture by 'rescuing' one horse from these people.  It's not just ONE horse, it's hundreds, because by one person doing it, every other mug ends up doing it, and so on.  As mentioned numerous times already, it seems to be a fashionable thing to do these days - 'rescuing' from the meat man and what have you, and it's going on left, right and centre.  You only have to click on a FB horse site to see the handfuls of people saying they have 'rescued' a 'terribly sad, thin horse destined for meat', when in actual fact the photo clearly shows a perfectly healthy coloured cob which has the odd crack in it's hoof.


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## 3OldPonies (15 July 2014)

GG - a very well thought out post.

Can't say I agree with all of it, but then you probably wouldn't agree with all of my thoughts, which are very mixed on the subject.  I see nothing wrong with experienced people, if they are able, rescuing and re-habbing these equines, but equally I can see that the morons who carry on breeding regardless see this as a market slightly more profitable than the meat man. Also, there are are the well meaning but quite frankly idiotic people who cause even more problems by buying a £50 pony for their kids with no idea of what is involved in creating the lovely perfect ponies that they see others riding - this needs to be thoroughly discouraged and FIDES is doing a good job there by getting Oreo's story into the press. I also see that there are overwhelmed charities who haven't been able to stop themselves creating a welfare problem by their own warm-heartedness turning sour, and establish charities who can't say no to accepting more, whilst at the same time preventing re-homing through ridiculous perfectionist demands.

What the answer is to all of this I truly don't know, but until there is one, I think we all just have to do what we can by whatever means to help the ponies as best we can.


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## Moomin1 (15 July 2014)

3OldPonies said:



			GG - a very well thought out post.

Can't say I agree with all of it, but then you probably wouldn't agree with all of my thoughts, which are very mixed on the subject.  I see nothing wrong with experienced people, if they are able, rescuing and re-habbing these equines, but equally I can see that the morons who carry on breeding regardless see this as a market slightly more profitable than the meat man. Also, there are are the well meaning but quite frankly idiotic people who cause even more problems by buying a £50 pony for their kids with no idea of what is involved in creating the lovely perfect ponies that they see others riding - this needs to be thoroughly discouraged and FIDES is doing a good job there by getting Oreo's story into the press. I also see that there are overwhelmed charities who haven't been able to stop themselves creating a welfare problem by their own warm-heartedness turning sour, and establish charities who can't say no to accepting more, whilst at the same time preventing re-homing through ridiculous perfectionist demands.

What the answer is to all of this I truly don't know, but until there is one, I think we all just have to do what we can by whatever means to help the ponies as best we can.
		
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I'm not sure it is a good idea to get the story in the press at all. It depends of course - I haven't seen the article so don't know what details it contains. Does it cover the true costs involved?  There is a real danger it could have the opposite desired effect and people rush out to 'get that white knight' moment.


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## _GG_ (15 July 2014)

3OldPonies said:



			GG - a very well thought out post.

Can't say I agree with all of it, but then you probably wouldn't agree with all of my thoughts, which are very mixed on the subject.  I see nothing wrong with experienced people, if they are able, rescuing and re-habbing these equines, but equally I can see that the morons who carry on breeding regardless see this as a market slightly more profitable than the meat man. Also, there are are the well meaning but quite frankly idiotic people who cause even more problems by buying a £50 pony for their kids with no idea of what is involved in creating the lovely perfect ponies that they see others riding - this needs to be thoroughly discouraged and FIDES is doing a good job there by getting Oreo's story into the press. I also see that there are overwhelmed charities who haven't been able to stop themselves creating a welfare problem by their own warm-heartedness turning sour, and establish charities who can't say no to accepting more, whilst at the same time preventing re-homing through ridiculous perfectionist demands.

What the answer is to all of this I truly don't know, but until there is one, I think we all just have to do what we can by whatever means to help the ponies as best we can.
		
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Yep...and as I said in my post, as I learn more, my own beliefs and opinions may very well change, because I am open and not naive enough to think I know that much about it yet. It's a very complex issue that requires an equally complex solution.


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## pennyturner (15 July 2014)

Thoughts:

Value of colt as meat is approx 80p/kilo.  Therefore it's clear to me that anyone selling 'meat colts' for less than this is doing so for convenience or to avoid regulations, not for profit as such.  They'd get more money at the abbatoir gate (if there were enough convenient abbatoirs).

As regards the horses we actually need...  Our island is overstocked with old, lame, unrideable horses and high maintenance OTTB's with difficult temperaments.  It seems to me that these should be the ones going for meat, not healthy cobs and natives who'll turn into up-to weight good doers for the happy hackers who are the vast majority of potential owners.

There are a few things we could do to rebalance things:
Encourage charities to PTS worthless equines, rather than clog up the system with lame/old/needy horses.
Open existing non-equine abbatoirs for horse days to make slaughter for meat an easier option if you don't live down the road from Potters
Subsidise PTS of private equines on humane grounds, so that this becomes more attractive than selling on.


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## 3OldPonies (15 July 2014)

pennyturner said:



			Thoughts:

Subsidise PTS of private equines on humane grounds, so that this becomes more attractive than selling on.
		
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This is a good idea.  It sticks slightly in my craw to say so, but it would solve the problem of oldies and lame/problems horses and ponies doing the rounds and ending up a welfare issue.


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## Shilasdair (15 July 2014)

3OldPonies said:



			Cobgoblin - you't not an anomaly like someone so rudely said, I would go native or cob as well. 

I know I couldn't handle an ex-racehorse, I don't have the experience, but am experienced with cobs and natives so that is why it would be my decision as well.
		
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You are assuming that, because something is a native or cob, it is suitable for a novice to own and ride, but 'rescues' come with a whole host of health and behavioural issues (not least being lack of handling) which requires an experienced home, and a competent rider.

Look at the clearly competent Fides - she's been kicked already!  As an experienced person, she's not unduly worried, but this is often enough for the novice rescuer to advertise the animal for sale due to 'a change in circumstances requires a new home'.  The internet is full of these adverts. 
S


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## cobgoblin (15 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			You are assuming that, because something is a native or cob, it is suitable for a novice to own and ride, but 'rescues' come with a whole host of health and behavioural issues (not least being lack of handling) which requires an experienced home, and a competent rider.

Look at the clearly competent Fides - she's been kicked already!  As an experienced person, she's not unduly worried, but this is often enough for the novice rescuer to advertise the animal for sale due to 'a change in circumstances requires a new home'.  The internet is full of these adverts. 
S 

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Nobody mentioned novices. 3OldPonies said she was experienced with natives and cobs.


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## pennyturner (15 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			You are assuming that, because something is a native or cob, it is suitable for a novice to own and ride, but 'rescues' come with a whole host of health and behavioural issues (not least being lack of handling) which requires an experienced home, and a competent rider.

Look at the clearly competent Fides - she's been kicked already!  As an experienced person, she's not unduly worried, but this is often enough for the novice rescuer to advertise the animal for sale due to 'a change in circumstances requires a new home'.  The internet is full of these adverts. 
S 

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Yes, because a OTTB or 'properly bred' horse would never kick! [sarc]
How can anyone argue that natives and cobs aren't GENERALLY easier than blood horses?
Just because a horse has been neglected or mistreated, doesn't make it a psycho.  IME, it's more of a problem when they've been coddled and treated, have no respect and see people as polo dispensers.

I would like a £1 for every horse which the owner thinks 'must have been beaten' which is in fact just taking the piss.


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## Merrymoles (15 July 2014)

pennyturner said:



			Not all stallions are used for breeding.  Mine are family ponies.  We don't keep mares, and have no intention of doing so, but keep a bachelor herd for riding, as is common in other countries.  Buster couldn't be licenced as he's monorchid.

Please don't have Buster PTS!






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I promise I won't - he's lovely! Really, I am getting at the idea that licensing stallions would be a somewhat smaller task than keeping track of every horse in the country, as the passport system was originally designed to do, and would employ one database to record the information. I'm not suggesting it should be expensive (I'll pay for Buster's  ), although there would be associated costs of enforcement, but that it should be a tool to be used to ensure owners can be traced and held responsible for their animals without the complications of identifying every single horse in a herd.

Undoubtedly, there would be those who would still chuck a stallion in with their various herds in different locations and it is not a panacea but if it makes people think about whether to keep a colt entire if they have to register it, it may be a deterrent.

ETA - as soon as I have done some proper work, I'm off to read Fides' thread as I seem to be getting slightly off track here - although I'm getting the general gist. OP, I more or less agreed with the general "don't fund the bar-stewards" approach but also agreed with other posters who say it's sometimes very difficult on an emotional level.


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## Spudlet (15 July 2014)

Hetsmum said:



			Just to address this point which I think a couple of people have made in so many words, but I quoted this one as it was the first instance I cam across - the charities do not buy the horses, they have them signed over into their ownership. So unlike somebody who pays an owner for a 'rescue', the charities are not providing the funds or incentive for that person to go and buy another horse for someone else to rescue.

Also remember that rehoming from a charity not only helps that one horse, but frees up a space for the charity to take in and rehabilitate another horse - so rather than create a space on the yard of someone who didn't look after their horse, you are creating space on a yard of people who will look after them very well indeed.
		
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## Shilasdair (15 July 2014)

pennyturner said:



			Yes, because a OTTB or 'properly bred' horse would never kick! [sarc]
How can anyone argue that natives and cobs aren't GENERALLY easier than blood horses?
Just because a horse has been neglected or mistreated, doesn't make it a psycho.  IME, it's more of a problem when they've been coddled and treated, have no respect and see people as polo dispensers.

I would like a £1 for every horse which the owner thinks 'must have been beaten' which is in fact just taking the piss.
		
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What are you talking about?
All horses, Tbs or cobs have the propensity to be dangerous, particularly in novice hands.
Because something is black, white, and hairy doesn't mean it's fine for a novice (or that the novice is fine for the horse either).
S


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## ester (15 July 2014)

pennyturner said:



			Thoughts:

Value of colt as meat is approx 80p/kilo.  Therefore it's clear to me that anyone selling 'meat colts' for less than this is doing so for convenience or to avoid regulations, not for profit as such.  They'd get more money at the abbatoir gate (if there were enough convenient abbatoirs).
		
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They would, however they would also have had to at the very least pay for a passport and microchipping for the animal so it is profit as such as no outlays.


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## Regandal (15 July 2014)

Maybe I'm being a bit thick, but why can't the government reclass horses as livestock and then DEFRA can police their welfare? These colts are being reared as livestock anyway, might as well have the protection.  Need a bit more funding, granted, but I am cynical and suspect the government can find money when it has the will to do so.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

_gg_  said:
			
		


			UNTIL we can find a way to confront the problem head on, I would actually support other experienced and solvent people buy these horses as the alternative for the breeder is to abandon and let them starve to death. They can't sell them, can't breed from them and won't spend any money feeding them, so they are destined for a very miserable end to life.
		
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What a very good point. You made me think there, GG, that although they are not rescues when they are taken on, they will become rescues if they are not taken on, due to disposal costs.

What happened to the days when meat horses were worth serious amounts of money, and when I was paid £40 after shooting and collection  in 1985 for the hair, hooves and bones of a horse that was so poisoned it was not even fit for pet food?

If these horses were worth more than the cost of getting them to the abattoir there wouldn't be any need for this thread.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

Regandal said:



			Maybe I'm being a bit thick, but why can't the government reclass horses as livestock and then DEFRA can police their welfare? These colts are being reared as livestock anyway, might as well have the protection.  Need a bit more funding, granted, but I am cynical and suspect the government can find money when it has the will to do so.
		
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How many fewer policeman or nurses would you like to have in order to pay for that?  Alternatively, how much more tax?

Money aside, thankfully it won't happen but you would certainly not like the result if your horse was suddenly classed as livestock, with all the red tape that involves. Double ear tags, anyone??


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## pennyturner (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Double ear tags, anyone??
		
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I find it hard enough looking my pigs in the eye when I have to tag them.  I don't think I could face doing it to the ponies.  It's not the squeal that gets to me; it's the look of betrayal.  

... and you'd never get a bridle on again.


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## Lanky Loll (15 July 2014)

I was so tempted to start a similar thread to this after this weekends latest rounds of "save the ponies" via Facebook.

What breaks my heart is when you go to Leominster or any of the native dispersal sales and you see decently bred youngstock, with passports that have been looked after, and they sell for between £5 and £65 - we've got 2 left on the yard at the moment having bought 3 originally, paid a premium for one of them as he's dun - he was £60, lovely lad, standing 13hands now as a 3yo sweet natured and will make a cracking pony, the other two fillies - one needs some more handling but should make a smart kids pony, she's now 4 and just starting to be played with properly cost us £15.  The other was the soppiest thing on four legs, and is currently being used as a therapy pony regularly ending up covered in glitter and coloured paint as disadvantaged kids clamber all over her - she loves it and she was £7.   So many lovely ponies  just like them ended up going to the meat man (NOT the worst outcome I'm the first to admit) whilst these rubbishy bits of badly bred malformed, wormy ponies (yes I know it's no fault of their own) end up "rescued" because someone posts a sob story on faceache.

Makes me so cross!

So many different types of horses and ponies are overbred here in the UK - natives / TBs and rubbishy bits included you can't keep rescuing them, and on this bit Princess Anne was SO right - we need to start eating them  to create a bottom of the market.
There's a rumour Potters may be purchasing one of our local abattoirs - brilliant - at the moment  it's a long journey to their current premises but I can't fault how they conduct their business.  We don't (thankfully) have to visit them often but it's definitely not the worst place to end up.


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## 3OldPonies (15 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			You are assuming that, because something is a native or cob, it is suitable for a novice to own and ride, but 'rescues' come with a whole host of health and behavioural issues (not least being lack of handling) which requires an experienced home, and a competent rider.

Look at the clearly competent Fides - she's been kicked already!  As an experienced person, she's not unduly worried, but this is often enough for the novice rescuer to advertise the animal for sale due to 'a change in circumstances requires a new home'.  The internet is full of these adverts. 
S 

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Shilasdair, if you'd get your foot out of your mouth for a moment, you would realise that your first paragraph above makes an assumption that you can't quantify.  What I said was that I wouldn't have a tb over a cob or native because I have no experience in handling tbs. I did not say that I have no experience full stop or that cobs and natives are suitable for novices.  

I don't have to justify myself, but am going to - one of my 'rescues' is a cob who came from a very well to do family that could be classed as 'all the gear and no idea'.  He was cut late and is riggy, he thought he ruled the world and had no need for manners, he couldn't be led anywhere in hand, his feet were overgrown, he was wormy, hadn't been groomed for years so matted coat, mane and tail, ran away when ridden, was headshy, would try to have your head off with his feet if you got near his back end to sort his man cave out (after being cut late - I didn't blame him); now he is a lovely old softy in his thirties who is so laid back you wouldn't believe it - he never was a novices horse though - but that is what he started out as and why get got abandoned in a field with a mini shettie for company.  By that time he'd been chucked off every livery yard in the vicinity and it was only the kindness of local residents who took feed to the pair of them that got them through the winter before I came along. I think it does qualify me slightly in knowing a little bit about re-habbing a rescue.


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## ester (15 July 2014)

which makes £50 seem like a lot of money LL.


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## Lanky Loll (15 July 2014)

exactly ester


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## Orangehorse (15 July 2014)

I haven't read ALL the threads, but there seem to be so many of these weird little coloured things around, and apart from the odd one or two frankly really are worth nothing as riding animals and need a bullet, poor things.

So why are there so many?  There must be a market.  My local gypsy family breed them, and in fact the stallion is a rather nice boy and they have the odd mare that is better than the average, but I wonder where all these foals go to.

I have a rescue as a companion, a mare in foal abandoned on some common land that someone has tamed enough for me to be able to catch, just about, and have feet and teeth done, but she is an ugly little thing with no redeeming features at all and wasn't worth breeding or putting in foal.


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## Alec Swan (15 July 2014)

I'll go further than Shilasdair's excellent and opening post.  Would most agree that our average farm livestock creatures,  Beef animals,  and Lambs,  have a reasonable,  humane and cared for life?  Has anyone stopped to think and perhaps ask why we have so many equine welfare cases,  when compared with those of farm livestock?  Would others consider that if our horses had a final sale value,  then they would be as well cared for as our farm livestock?  Would others accept that if those who keep horses in the most dire of conditions,  had what was considered to be an asset,  then they would at least take greater care of it?

Can anyone explain to me (apart from the rather obvious differences),  where the difference lays between our farm livestock and our equines?  It seems to me that we care for one,  but not the other.  Kindness and cruelty are most often bed-fellowws,  sadly.

None of the equine charities will support an ethical slaughter system for our equines,  for the very simple reason that it will impinge upon their abilities to raise charitable funds.  The equine charities,  ALL OF THEM,  should be ashamed in that they promote their charitable work,  by having the evidence,  horses in need of charitable euthanasia.  If ALL of the equine charities were outlawed,  we'd very soon return to a more ethical and humane system of equine management.

Alec.


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## Shilasdair (15 July 2014)

3OldPonies said:



			Shilasdair, if you'd get your foot out of your mouth for a moment, you would realise that your first paragraph above makes an assumption that you can't quantify.  What I said was that I wouldn't have a tb over a cob or native because I have no experience in handling tbs. I did not say that I have no experience full stop or that cobs and natives are suitable for novices.  

I don't have to justify myself, but am going to - one of my 'rescues' is a cob who came from a very well to do family that could be classed as 'all the gear and no idea'.  He was cut late and is riggy, he thought he ruled the world and had no need for manners, he couldn't be led anywhere in hand, his feet were overgrown, he was wormy, hadn't been groomed for years so matted coat, mane and tail, ran away when ridden, was headshy, would try to have your head off with his feet if you got near his back end to sort his man cave out (after being cut late - I didn't blame him); now he is a lovely old softy in his thirties who is so laid back you wouldn't believe it - he never was a novices horse though - but that is what he started out as and why get got abandoned in a field with a mini shettie for company.  By that time he'd been chucked off every livery yard in the vicinity and it was only the kindness of local residents who took feed to the pair of them that got them through the winter before I came along. I think it does qualify me slightly in knowing a little bit about re-habbing a rescue.
		
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You bought a rude cob from a 'well to do' background, and restored some discipline.  
That's lovely, but it's not a rescue.  I bought an ex orphan weanling, who had never had her feet trimmed, was underweight and needed worming.  I couldn't catch her for about 2 weeks.  . Also not a 'rescue', and my ability to care for her should be the expectation, not something to congratulate me on.

And you're proving my point re cobs - yours came from a decent background, but wasn't suitable for a novice.  
S 

ETA mine was a bit rough because the lady whose mare fostered her broke her collar bone and struggled for a month or two, nothing sinister.


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## bonny (15 July 2014)

How about we just ban the use of the word "rescue", that would solve the problem in an instant. No one would be able to use it as an excuse anymore and instead could just post "I bought a pony/cob/foal etc for £50, what a bargain !"


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## Jesstickle (15 July 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			.  If ALL of the equine charities were outlawed,  we'd very soon return to a more ethical and humane system of equine management.

Alec.
		
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To be fair I have just looked at WHW

http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/Emerging-Horse-Crisis

and they do, in their PDF, talk about euthanasia of confiscated horses if no suitable home can be found. 

No they aren't quite advocating taking them to Potters but they aren't saying they all have to be saved either...

ETS: and they aren't anti slaughter house, they want tighter regs in slaughter houses. If people choose to misinterpret that then the charity can hardly be blamed...


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## honetpot (15 July 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			I'll go further than Shilasdair's excellent and opening post.  Would most agree that our average farm livestock creatures,  Beef animals,  and Lambs,  have a reasonable,  humane and cared for life?  Has anyone stopped to think and perhaps ask why we have so many equine welfare cases,  when compared with those of farm livestock?  Would others consider that if our horses had a final sale value,  then they would be as well cared for as our farm livestock?  Would others accept that if those who keep horses in the most dire of conditions,  had what was considered to be an asset,  then they would at least take greater care of it?

Can anyone explain to me (apart from the rather obvious differences),  where the difference lays between our farm livestock and our equines?  It seems to me that we care for one,  but not the other.  Kindness and cruelty are most often bed-fellowws,  sadly.

None of the equine charities will support an ethical slaughter system for our equines,  for the very simple reason that it will impinge upon their abilities to raise charitable funds.  The equine charities,  ALL OF THEM,  should be ashamed in that they promote their charitable work,  by having the evidence,  horses in need of charitable euthanasia.  If ALL of the equine charities were outlawed,  we'd very soon return to a more ethical and humane system of equine management.

Alec.
		
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 I think the big difference are farmers are out to make money and provide a good quality end product. No farmer worth their salt wants a poor animal, that has poor feet and creates vets bills and the food that is put into them has to create towards a carcass with a value. The farm animal food industry is very clear about how little food the farmer needs to use, where as with horses they encourage spending over common sense. 
 Every animal should not need to have a monetary value to have good welfare but that seems to be the main factor in their care or lack of it.


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## 3OldPonies (15 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			You bought a rude cob from a 'well to do' background, and restored some discipline.  
That's lovely, but it's not a rescue.  I bought an ex orphan weanling, who had never had her feet trimmed, was underweight and needed worming.  I couldn't catch her for about 2 weeks.  . Also not a 'rescue', and my ability to care for her should be the expectation, not something to congratulate me on.

And you're proving my point re cobs - yours came from a decent background, but wasn't suitable for a novice.  
S 

ETA mine was a bit rough because the lady whose mare fostered her broke her collar bone and struggled for a month or two, nothing sinister.
		
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I think we're just going to have to disagree here, I call it a rescue, and remember I don't have to justify myself to you or anyone else, because they'd been left out all winter with no food other than kitchen scraps and the odd bit of garden rubbish, were getting no routine farrier or health care and would have been PTS in the spring because so many people had made complaints about them.  Not only that the cob's history when investigated was that he originally came from a rather dodgy source as a supposedly novice ride suitable for a first timer when he'd actually been broken in pretty brutally and cut so late in order to be sold off at a better price than an unbroken stallion.  If he'd not sold in the first place, the dodgy dealer was going to PTS as well.  You don't know the whole story any more than I know the full story of your 'non-rescue'.  

Also, I'm not asking to be congratulated, just pointing out, as I am having to do yet again because you don't seem to be able to comprehend what I was trying to get across, is that I wouldn't go down this route with a tb because I don't think I am experienced to handle a tb, whereas I do have experience with cobs and natives so that it what I would choose to re-home.


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## thatsmygirl (15 July 2014)

A local girl to me took 25 of these coloured type ponies onto her land ( didnt buy came from the police) everybody asked why and what she thought she was doing. I honestly think in her head she could make money, they went up for £150 each and funny enough couldn't home any. In the end she found she couldn't even give them away. Our local rescue centre took the mares in foal and the rest went for meat. None in the time she owned them had any basic care just chucked in a field. Advert heading was " rescue ponies desperate for homes" when from £150 to free but still went for meat.


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## _GG_ (15 July 2014)

This is aimed at no particular person, but rather, I've noticed shades of it in a lot of the posts on this thread. 

Please be careful not to be naive in your own beliefs when accusing others of naivety. 

This is such a complex and grey issue, there is no easy fix, magic wand or correct answer. I keep seeing posts repeating the same condemnation but with few or no ideas being put forward for resolution. 

I don't think anything that anyone has said in any post here is without merit....far from it, it's become a valuable thread...but it will lose its value if it descends into repetition. 

There are some people, myself included that plan on actually doing something to try to improve things, so if anyone does have ideas, perhaps you could share them...it would be very much appreciated


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## 3OldPonies (15 July 2014)

_GG_  I think you have just told me off!

Anyway for what it's worth, I do think that charity subsidised euthanisia is a good idea.  It may break the hearts of some owners, but it is a better end than being passed from pillar to post if someone finds themselves in dire straits and is unable even to fund the cost themselves.  I also think that the charities need to be a little less stringent in their ideals for re-homing.  We can't all have perfect yards, but if the knowledge, skill and good intention is there, then they should stop worrying so much about the minutae - perhaps a home visit and a knowledge 'test' before making a decision.  That is not to say though they should go to the extremes of saying everyone must have passed a minimum of the BHS Stages exams!  But that they know enough about day to day stable management to cope and that they have a vet and farrier lined up from the start.

As to the overbreeding by a certain element of the community, while they will defend their right to breed equines as they have done so for so many years, they need to be made to stop!  Or at the very least cut down their production to sustainable levels.  Sooner or later they are going to overwhelm not only those who can effect a rescue, the charities and the meat man and then the level of welfare troubles really will escalate out of control.

Also, I believe that the charities themselves need some kind of regulation to stop just anyone buying up some scrappy equines and setting themselves up.  There's one not far from me, which is trying it's hardest, but they are of the sort that can't say no, and they're going to run out of room soon.


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## Fides (15 July 2014)

_GG_ your post in particular has spurred me into action - what _can_ we do to help solve the problem? If anyone has any ideas please share them here

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?671282-Lets-create-a-solution

I am more than willing to give my time to support forming an organisation to help tackle the cause, rather than plugging a hole.

And people - please do not condemn Shils or anyone for disagreeing with what I have done with Oreo. It is something that I did in a moment of weakness and although I don't regret doing it when I see his little face, it doesn't actually help the plight of these horses in any way - just one.

So the question Shils is are you willing to help create a solution? If a group of us got together and set up an organisation with the aim of promoting PTS as a valid alternative to rehoming, would you want to be a part of it? Genuine question - I would love to have someone with your passion and conviction fighting from the same corner as me.

This also extends to _GG_, Alec and Pennyturner who also seemed to express similar views. Would you be willing to help set up a drive for this? It would be a long slog but could make a real impact. Anyone else?

ETA - offer extended to 3Oldponies too


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## catembi (15 July 2014)

I would help.  I am good at boring stuff like writing letters & badgering MPs.

T x


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## jofwigby (15 July 2014)

(We are working on a local plan and one of our suggestions is that of the equivalent of the Baby Boxes - where animals can be given over anonymously if the owner cannot afford to PTS - offering a subsidised of sorts solution would mean that there would be no excuse for animals being abandoned / un-treated).


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## _GG_ (15 July 2014)

3OldPonies said:



			_GG_  I think you have just told me off!

Anyway for what it's worth, I do think that charity subsidised euthanisia is a good idea.  It may break the hearts of some owners, but it is a better end than being passed from pillar to post if someone finds themselves in dire straits and is unable even to fund the cost themselves.  I also think that the charities need to be a little less stringent in their ideals for re-homing.  We can't all have perfect yards, but if the knowledge, skill and good intention is there, then they should stop worrying so much about the minutae - perhaps a home visit and a knowledge 'test' before making a decision.  That is not to say though they should go to the extremes of saying everyone must have passed a minimum of the BHS Stages exams!  But that they know enough about day to day stable management to cope and that they have a vet and farrier lined up from the start.

As to the overbreeding by a certain element of the community, while they will defend their right to breed equines as they have done so for so many years, they need to be made to stop!  Or at the very least cut down their production to sustainable levels.  Sooner or later they are going to overwhelm not only those who can effect a rescue, the charities and the meat man and then the level of welfare troubles really will escalate out of control.

Also, I believe that the charities themselves need some kind of regulation to stop just anyone buying up some scrappy equines and setting themselves up.  There's one not far from me, which is trying it's hardest, but they are of the sort that can't say no, and they're going to run out of room soon.
		
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Haha, definitely not telling anyone off...I'd quite rightly expect a slap for doing that. More just saying it's turning into a bit of a roundabout that's all 



Fides said:



			_GG_ your post in particular has spurred me into action - what _can_ we do to help solve the problem? If anyone has any ideas please share them here

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?671282-Lets-create-a-solution

I am more than willing to give my time to support forming an organisation to help tackle the cause, rather than plugging a hole.

And people - please do not condemn Shils or anyone for disagreeing with what I have done with Oreo. It is something that I did in a moment of weakness and although I don't regret doing it when I see his little face, it doesn't actually help the plight of these horses in any way - just one.

So the question Shils is are you willing to help create a solution? If a group of us got together and set up an organisation with the aim of promoting PTS as a valid alternative to rehoming, would you want to be a part of it? Genuine question - I would love to have someone with your passion and conviction fighting from the same corner as me.

This also extends to _GG_, Alec and Pennyturner who also seemed to express similar views. Would you be willing to help set up a drive for this? It would be a long slog but could make a real impact. Anyone else?

ETA - offer extended to 3Oldponies too 

Click to expand...

Yes, you'd have my help. I am about to be writing some more for a horsey magazine so will ask the editor if they would support an article discussing this in a future issue as well.


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## Clare85 (15 July 2014)

Fides, I would definitely want to be a part of an organisation that aims to provide solutions to this problem we have. Off to have a quick look at your thread


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## 3OldPonies (15 July 2014)

I'm off to have a look at the create a solution thread.  But on the face of it, if we think we can do something to help then we should.


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## rascal (15 July 2014)

Shilasdair said:



			Hi all
Please don't buy rescues, as you are creating the demand for them, which unscrupulous suppliers/dealers will profit from.

I understand that you do it with the best of intentions (and a certain feel good factor from posting about your good deeds, perhaps).

But think - the supplier is using your 'fuel' money or '£50 fee' to produce the next larger crop of neglected, ecto and endoparasite-ridden, malnourished and badly conformed equidae thanks to your help.  You are colluding in equine misery. 

If they are well cared for meat horses - let them go for meat.  If they are not, report the owners to the police, BHS, WHW, Etc, and let action be taken against them to prevent a recurrence.

Please don't fund this.

S 

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My welsh cob Goyallt Nico was a rescue, he is neither badly bred or has poor conformation, he is a very well bred registered welsh cob, who was bought by a person who just could not be bothered to look after him. He was full of worms, had a serious lice problem and was very thin. While i wouldnt buy just any old horse Nico is our second rescue, the first came in the same condition from Bodmin 30 yrs ago, and was eventually my youngest daughters first horse, Jimmy was a much loved friend, as Nico is now. Its not just the ones who are left to breed with anything that need rescuing you know!


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## Highlands (15 July 2014)

Agree a solution is needed! PTS should be subsided and youngsters gelded .... Maybe a bill needs to be passed. Long road ahead!


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

Highlands said:



			Agree a solution is needed! PTS should be subsided and youngsters gelded .... Maybe a bill needs to be passed. Long road ahead!
		
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Surely people who can't afford £150 to put a horse down or geld it should not own it in the first place?    I would be really cross if irresponsible owners were rewarded by having gelding or euthanasia costs subsidised. 

If you subsidised gelding these 'meat colts' you simply make breeding them more economically viable and more will be bred.


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## windand rain (15 July 2014)

One thing that could be lobbied for is a license for Stallions and a similar tagging system for horses as for farm animals without the transport bit so every horse would need to have a microchip/freezemark without which it would be ceased and destroyed within 14 days. The responsible will comply the irresponsible will lose their stock


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## rascal (15 July 2014)

We all know its the irresponsible who dont give a ****  who have created the problems. Its not that they cant afford passports/micro chipping/gelding they just think (and are right!) that they are above the law! In walking distance of my house i could show you three tethered cob stallions, there are also mares running free on the same bit of land. This is where there needs to be tough laws.


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## honetpot (15 July 2014)

Please think about signing this,
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/66742
  and get them to use the existing regulations.


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## Fides (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Surely people who can't afford £150 to put a horse down or geld it should not own it in the first place?    I would be really cross if irresponsible owners were rewarded by having gelding or euthanasia costs subsidised. 

If you subsidised gelding these 'meat colts' you simply make breeding them more economically viable and more will be bred.
		
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The problem is that it doesn't just cost £150 to put a horse down, you then have to factor in the removal costs as well - I paid £350 for removal of my horse that died. It isn't economically viable for these breeders to PTS the unwanted, hence them going for a pittance. As for gelding - I was paid £250 plus callout for an at home geld, it would have been £400 if at the vets. And if only one testicle descends and they have to wait till they are two you then need a geld and tie - more expense. And if you have a rig £1200-£1500 to remove.

There are huge costs involved in PTS and gelding. There has to be a better way?


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

It cost me exactly £150 to have a seventeen hand horse shot and removed in May this year.


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## Fides (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			It cost me exactly £150 to have a seventeen hand horse shot and removed in May this year.
		
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A lot of the fluffy bunnies won't have the horse shot. If you have the injection then the carcass can't be used for meat so disposal costs are higher.


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## rascal (15 July 2014)

honetpot said:



			Please think about signing this,
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/66742
  and get them to use the existing regulations.
		
Click to expand...


Done!


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

Fides said:



			A lot of the fluffy bunnies won't have the horse shot. If you have the injection then the carcass can't be used for meat so disposal costs are higher.
		
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It makes no difference. If you can't afford your chosen method of disposal of a horse you should not own one in the first place, imo.

My horse was shot, removed and  incinerated for £150.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

Fides said:



			The problem is that it doesn't just cost £150 to put a horse down, you then have to factor in the removal costs as well - I paid £350 for removal of my horse that died. It isn't economically viable for these breeders to PTS the unwanted, hence them going for a pittance. As for gelding - I was paid £250 plus callout for an at home geld, it would have been £400 if at the vets. And if only one testicle descends and they have to wait till they are two you then need a geld and tie - more expense. And if you have a rig £1200-£1500 to remove.

There are huge costs involved in PTS and gelding. There has to be a better way?
		
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Nothing stopping these breeders having the horses picked up and taken to slaughter that's not an expensive option .
There's no way I am parting with a penny to PTS a breeders crap while they sell the good ones let then dispose of their rubbish to an abattoir themselves . 
Don't breed if you can't afford to geld .
Paying these costs won't stop these people breeding we need to make the infrastructure they use to keep ( better word would be store ) their horses very very difficult to use .
Strict fly grazing regulations .
Livery licensing including those offering grazing would be a start .
Compulsory stallion licences with draconian seizure and destruction powers for those not licensed and microchipped .
I am not going to hold my breath .


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## Moomin1 (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			It makes no difference. If you can't afford your chosen method of disposal of a horse you should not own one in the first place, imo.

My house was shot, removed and  incinerated for £150.
		
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Good grief, I didn't know you could get houses shot!


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Good grief, I didn't know you could get houses shot!
		
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It took me ¡%¡|%¡¢®¡ ages to find a man who would do it


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## Regandal (15 July 2014)

Maybe we're looking at this from the wrong angle.  Apparently the legislation in place should be sufficient,  IF it is used.  Most councils choose not to use it, as demonstrated  by the Fosseway park horses.  Why don't the RSPCA prosecute the council for neglect of duty, or whatever it is called?  We're always told no one is above the law.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			It took me ¡%¡|%¡¢®¡ ages to find a man who would do it 

Click to expand...

Did you try throwing all your shoes out before this drastic step .


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## windand rain (15 July 2014)

You and I seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet Goldenstar


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

windand rain said:



			You and I seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet Goldenstar
		
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I have been banging on about this for years in RL .


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Did you try throwing all your shoes out before this drastic step .
		
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SHOES????  What,are they. ?



PS actually I have quite a collection of old horse shoes that for some reason I just can't bring myself to throw away. Sad Muppet or what?


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## windand rain (15 July 2014)

me too years been saying the same thing and had lots of indignant people telling me it wont work I simply don't believe them 14 days to get it right and pay for  it or the animal is slaughtered simple to me.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2014)

windand rain said:



			me too years been saying the same thing and had lots of indignant people telling me it wont work I simply don't believe them 14 days to get it right and pay for  it or the animal is slaughtered simple to me.
		
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I would not require the tax payer or council taxpayer to pay for them for fourteen days three days tops then off to slaughter .


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## pennyturner (16 July 2014)

The solution, IMO is not more regulation, but rather a change in attitude to the use of horsemeat.  It's ridiculous that you have to pay c.£200 to 'dispose' of what should be a £300 asset (400kg of useable horse meat).

Create a market for horse flesh (alongside decent end of life welfare standards), and the problem is largely solved.

I will not support (for selfish reasons and ideological ones) any plans to increase red tape around stallion or other horse ownership.  The regulations we already have are intrusive, ineffective and punative.  No thanks to more of the same.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (16 July 2014)

pennyturner said:



			The solution, IMO is not more regulation, but rather a change in attitude to the use of horsemeat.  It's ridiculous that you have to pay c.£200 to 'dispose' of what should be a £300 asset (400kg of useable horse meat).
*
Create a market for horse flesh (alongside decent end of life welfare standards), and the problem is largely solved.*

I will not support (for selfish reasons and ideological ones) any plans to increase red tape around stallion or other horse ownership.  The regulations we already have are intrusive, ineffective and punative.  No thanks to more of the same.
		
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Well put Pennyturner, totally agree 

Also Defra to apply current regs, regarding passporting, even if those who are destined for meat as a foal have a cut-price, one way passport for id, to be produced at slaughter, within a 1 or 2 yr timescale from birth.


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## _GG_ (16 July 2014)

I've been thinking long and hard about this whole thing. I am going to do something so if you wish to help, I would genuinely appreciate it. 

See here:-

https://forums-secure.horseandhound...Before-you-buy!-A-Welfare-solution&p=12539311


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## Merrymoles (16 July 2014)

I'm not sure where to post this with all the current threads so may multi-post http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/private-members-bill-tackle-fly-grazing/

Congratulations to Julian Sturdy for getting off his bottom and starting the process. I wrote to my local MP who is in a neighbouring constituency to Mr Sturdy and he responded by saying he was liaising with Mr S to tackle the issue - so that's support from at least two!


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## honetpot (16 July 2014)

I e-mailed my MP, I live in Cambridgeshire, have heard not a sausage, so well done to Mr Strudy
 Sorry to keep pushing this but it only takes a minute to sign
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/66742


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## Goldenstar (16 July 2014)

pennyturner said:



			The solution, IMO is not more regulation, but rather a change in attitude to the use of horsemeat.  It's ridiculous that you have to pay c.£200 to 'dispose' of what should be a £300 asset (400kg of useable horse meat).

Create a market for horse flesh (alongside decent end of life welfare standards), and the problem is largely solved.

I will not support (for selfish reasons and ideological ones) any plans to increase red tape around stallion or other horse ownership.  The regulations we already have are intrusive, ineffective and punative.  No thanks to more of the same.
		
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So are you prepared for the withdrawal of many of the drugs we use on sport horses 
Most of these problems horses won't have full passport records and therefore ought not to be in the food chain .
If people are going to eat we will have to be sure the meat is free from drugs that one of the reason cattle and sheep are so well regulated .


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## jofwigby (17 July 2014)

honetpot said:



			I e-mailed my MP, I live in Cambridgeshire, have heard not a sausage, so well done to Mr Strudy
 Sorry to keep pushing this but it only takes a minute to sign
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/66742

Click to expand...

Please can we all do this - we know its very complicated and emotive but if we all make our feelings known to our MPs, it will at least force more debate among the movers & shakers.

We will never all agree on the details but we all know there are thousands upon thousands of excess equines in the UK - bred by fools - that will need feeding this winter.


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## pennyturner (17 July 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			So are you prepared for the withdrawal of many of the drugs we use on sport horses 
Most of these problems horses won't have full passport records and therefore ought not to be in the food chain .
If people are going to eat we will have to be sure the meat is free from drugs that one of the reason cattle and sheep are so well regulated .
		
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Of course drugs cannot enter the human food chain.  Sports horses etc should go for petfood (or even meat byproducts like fertiliser). 

But the low end horses we are talking about have never seen a vet in their life and most certainly have not been fed expensive drugs.


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## EmmasMummy (17 July 2014)

I think that at these kind of 'sales' if they appear to be malnourished etc then an official should be able to just rock up, seize the horses and PTS and then issue the 'breeders' with a bill/fine. If that could happen then maybe they would think twice about letting their stock overbreed! 

Its like those people that sell those silly harts and crap late at night on the weekends - they do it as they know some drunk suckers going to come along and buy them!


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2014)

pennyturner said:



			Of course drugs cannot enter the human food chain.  Sports horses etc should go for petfood (or even meat byproducts like fertiliser). 

But the low end horses we are talking about have never seen a vet in their life and most certainly have not been fed expensive drugs.
		
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Oh believe me, a lot of them do see drugs, just not legally administered.


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## PolarSkye (17 July 2014)

What an interesting and valuable debate . . . and, while I haven't read all the way to the end of the thread, the phrase that is ringing in my head is this:  until horses are treated like livestock (livestock that "may" enter the food chain), these issues won't go away.  

If you think about horses as livestock - like cows, for instance, colts are simply a by-product of a breeding industry . . . in the case of cows the end product is milk + beef + money - but we need far more dairy cows (heifers) than we do beef cows (bullocks), so the young (unwanted) males are despatched humanely soon after birth.  It's a fact of the dairy industry.  Some are now being reared for rose veal - which is a good thing, and is driven by very real economics.  The cold, hard facts are that, if you want to drink milk (or put it on your cornflakes or in your tea or coffee), eat cheese and spread butter on your toast then bleating about culling young male calves and refusing to eat veal is hypocrisy.  Translate that to the horse "industry" - because that's what we're talking about here - and if indiscriminate breeders can't find a value/market for their unwanted colts, then one of the responsible things to do is cull them - and sell them for meat - either as pet food, or overseas for meat (or, God forbid, for meat in this country).  

Unless and until horses are treated like other livestock, and their lifecyles properly regulated (which doesn't currently happen), we will still be having this conversation/debate . . . and the only way that will happen is if someone undertakes a massive education campaign so that people - all people, the general non horse owning public, horse owners, breeders, abattoirs, knackermen, vets, DEFRA, etc. - can have a rational debate and hammer out something sensible and workable.

Oh, and I'm another who doesn't believe for a second that the worst place a horse can end up is in an abattoir - that depends on so many things, not the least of which is the slaughterman himself.  

P


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## windand rain (17 July 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			What an interesting and valuable debate . . . and, while I haven't read all the way to the end of the thread, the phrase that is ringing in my head is this:  until horses are treated like livestock (livestock that "may" enter the food chain), these issues won't go away.  

If you think about horses as livestock - like cows, for instance, colts are simply a by-product of a breeding industry . . . in the case of cows the end product is milk + beef + money - but we need far more dairy cows (heifers) than we do beef cows (bullocks), so the young (unwanted) males are despatched humanely soon after birth.  It's a fact of the dairy industry.  Some are now being reared for rose veal - which is a good thing, and is driven by very real economics.  The cold, hard facts are that, if you want to drink milk (or put it on your cornflakes or in your tea or coffee), eat cheese and spread butter on your toast then bleating about culling young male calves and refusing to eat veal is hypocrisy.  Translate that to the horse "industry" - because that's what we're talking about here - and if indiscriminate breeders can't find a value/market for their unwanted colts, then one of the responsible things to do is cull them - and sell them for meat - either as pet food, or overseas for meat (or, God forbid, for meat in this country).  

Unless and until horses are treated like other livestock, and their lifecyles properly regulated (which doesn't currently happen), we will still be having this conversation/debate . . . and the only way that will happen is if someone undertakes a massive education campaign so that people - all people, the general non horse owning public, horse owners, breeders, abattoirs, knackermen, vets, DEFRA, etc. - can have a rational debate and hammer out something sensible and workable.

Oh, and I'm another who doesn't believe for a second that the worst place a horse can end up is in an abattoir - that depends on so many things, not the least of which is the slaughterman himself.  

P
		
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This is exactly what I have been trying to get over but have been told it is too difficult I cannot see why just make horses livestock the only thing that might have to have a different slant on it is transport as the current livestock rules for transporting farm animals is very very strict


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## honetpot (17 July 2014)

windand rain said:



			This is exactly what I have been trying to get over but have been told it is too difficult I cannot see why just make horses livestock the only thing that might have to have a different slant on it is transport as the current livestock rules for transporting farm animals is very very strict
		
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  Most politicians are only concerned about the next election and what is a major concern to their local voters because that is what gets them elected. I would imagine that the general public has little or no idea about the horse welfare problem, fly grazing etc they just see a few ponies at the side of the road. Until there is a huge pile up on the M25, A3, A14 or any big arterial road with loss of human life because these animals have been dumped the general public will remain uninterested and the MP's will remain uninterested. So trying to get new laws passed is going to be an uphill task, government will not do it, it would have to be a private members bill which very rarely get through parliament.

 The horsemeat scandal did put horses in the public eye and if attached to that a strengthening of the passport regulations that are already there would be less contentious and easier for the public to understand. Changing horses in to farm animals under DEFRA would just take too long.


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