# BHS campaign for responsible breeding



## HHO admin (18 January 2010)

The BHS is running a campaign to encourage responsible breeding of horses throughout the UK. To find out more about the campaign, and get advice on whether you should be breeding from your mare, click here


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## vjc (18 February 2010)

What a brilliant idea!!!! I have always thought breeders should be licensed myself (expecting to get shot down now!!!) to prove they are knowledgable enough and have the correct facilities to bred.


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## magic104 (13 March 2010)

"and have the correct facilities to bred."  As someone on a livery yard I dont fall into that cat & it has done none of the foals born there any harm what so ever.  We dont have post & rail fencing, we are lucky enough to have bigger then the ave 12 x 12 loose box.  What are the correct facilities to breed anyway?  We dont have stocks

Plenty of mares have foaled outside with no problems what so ever, yet most breeders would agree it is safer to have mares foal inside where a closer eye can be kept & where it is easier to manage once the foal is about, for the vet etc.  What about owners who buy mares then find out after that they are carrying?  Would they have to move if their facilities were deemed inappropriate?

I think the main issue is should a mare be bred from in the first instance.  Why are you breeding what is the long term aim for the offspring?  What do you hope to achieve from the breeding?


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## marmalade76 (13 March 2010)

Hmm, I don't think that hobby breeders are responsible for the majority of unwanted and poor quality horses. IMO, the racing industry produces many unwanted horses and the traveling community are responsible for producing the majority of poor quality animals, and who's going to stop them?

And if all the hobby breeders are discouraged from breeding, who does that leave? People who breed competition and show horses/ponies. But not everyone wants or can manage a competion horse. I'm sure there are far more hoses out there kept for hacking and low level unaff comps than for anything else.


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## marmalade76 (13 March 2010)

Also, if we're going to encourage resposible breeding to reduce the number of unwanted animals, should we not also encourage responsible euthanising of the unwanted and poor quality animals that fill the rescue centres?


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## magic104 (13 March 2010)

"should we not also encourage responsible euthanising" - See I actually agree with that, but my god will that create uproar amongst many.  If you can afford a lawn mower then that is fine, but why pass the burden onto somone else?  The amount of late teens early 20yo's being advertised along with horses that have health issues has increased.  I wonder if this is because people are unwilling to pay the £80+ to have the animal PTS.  I know older horses can have a good quality of life if they have been kept fit & have been cared for, generally though these are owned by people who would not dream of passing them on at this stage of their life.  Being cynical I do wonder when I see the older animal being advertised along with a few health issues if it comes back to the present owner not wanting to pay the money to either keep as a pet or end its life.

End of last year my friend had to decide what to do with a TB mare that had raced hard as a 2yo then bred 10 foals.  At 18 & in-foal her owner put her through the sales where she was bought by someone who was not there for her when she foaled.  She lost the foal & they were unable to get her back in-foal that year or the next, so sold her on at 19.  She had lost the sight in one eye (but the stud/owner never bothered to have it removed), this was causing her problems.  She had to be sedated for her teeth as they had not seen a dentist for some years & her legs that that seen better days were giving her problems as well.  As she would not stable without stressing herself out so with great sadness it was decided not to put her through a winter (and are we glad we didnt after this one!!).  I stayed with her & though it was extreamly upsetting & I felt like sh+t the guy was great & it was quick, the mare never had any stress, & we know she wont suffer anymore.  We know in her last months she had the best care & she was loved, there was never ever a thought of passing her on.  I have a mare who will end her days with us, there is no question of her being passed on "just before she becomes a burden" through age or health issues.  If I cant afford the vet bills then she will be PTS.  Most horses owe us nothing & dont deserve to have every £1 squeezed out of them.


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## Blacklist (13 March 2010)

Bravo.

During the life of a horse if it  is well cared for when it reaches the end of the road or its usefulness it is far better for it to be destroyed than to end up going round the horse sales being underfed and mistreated and probably ending up on a lorry to europe for meat. Much kinder to do a good job here in the uk - finish. it is better to have one bad day in its life (if it has to) after a good 20 years than weeks/months of suffering.


The real question is 'to breed or not to breed' only put a mre in foal if there will be a future for it - will it be saleable? or just end up being good for meat.

I have probably lit the blue touch paper - but I am not going to run!


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## GrassHorse (24 March 2010)

Its crazy the amount of people gone into breeeding over the last ten years. No the breeders cant sell most of their horses and they are ending up in the factory. Im from Ireland , the newspapers are now full of stories of neglect. Its very sad. I think a licence for breeding is a step in the right direction. Most breeders I think would agree with this.


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## lillith (31 March 2010)

How about rather than licensing breeders we license horses. They have passports allready, make it illegal to breed a horse that has not been licensed for breeding by whoever is out there judging the breed. Sport horses licenced by SHB, exmoors by the exmoor society ect. To be licenced to breed a horse/pony mustnot have any mahoosive conformation glitches and must not have any heritable conditions and must fit in with the aims of the relevant soc. If you can't get your brilliant s/j licenced with it's breed soc because it doesn't have a pretty enough face licence it with a s/j body who don't care about the face. Breed to the horses who are licenced by the people who do what you want to do....


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## Achinghips (3 April 2010)

The BHS had a great day organised for its volunteers at the Newmarket Stud the other day.  The highlight for me, following the discussion about responsible breeding, was seeing a young TB mare with a 3 day old at foot, being serviced.


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## Alexart (14 April 2010)

I think having a license for breeding is a great idea, the number of poorly bred fuglies that are around is huge.  It is quite shocking to see what people breed from, usually without any reason at all or any knowledge of what they are aiming for, and purely using a stallion because it is beautiful with no regard to wether it actually suits the mare!!!  They often have zero facilities - I'm talking the basics - stable/good fencing/well maintained safe paddocks, you don't have to have flashy white post and rail, but the number of people/backyard breeders who don't even have the basics is on the up!!  Some of the posts on chat forums make me cringe - I think a license to own a horse should firstly be brought in!!!
I think stallion owners have a responsibility too - they should be far more picky what their stallion covers - after all it is the stallions reputation at stake if a fugly foal appears by him - no-one ever looks at the mare it's always blamed on the stallion, so it baffles me when stallion owners cover anything and everything as long as it pays!!

I hate it too when peoples response about lack of basics is "we've had foals before and we got away with it" - then they come on the forums when something goes wrong looking for sympathy!! 
Then there's the I want a cute foal crowd and we don't check our mare very often - don't you just go out in the field and one day there is a cute foal???!!!
I think there are far too many people breeding rubbish thinking they are going to make money - fine when it's cute and fluffy but when it turns into an adult fugly they wonder why they can't get rid of it, and when they do they put said fugly mare back in foal!!!


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## jamesmead (24 April 2010)

I rather wish I hadn't read this thread. I knew it would irritate me. Trouble is, one person's "fugly" is often another person's pride and joy - so that apart from the truly irresponsible breeders who don't think or care (but who, IMO, are in the minority) - you could say that we are all adding to the equine overload and, despite our hopes and plans and forethought, we ourselves are responsible. So, who is going to cut their output this year? And which of us can absolutely guarantee a happy home for life for the foals they breed? Who is breeding to sell, when there are plenty of horses to go round and their own foals are unnecessary? 

My own feeling, to be quite honest, is that there will always be a surplus of horses while we breed horses for competition, whether its racing, dressage, showjumping, showing; there will always be horses that didn't make the grade (there can only be one winner, after all) and you can't expect the hobby market to mop up all the surplus of horses not designed for their use. The humane disposal of these horses (indeed, of any horse, in the end; they all get old) is always going to be necessary. Only by ceasing to compete will we stop that. (And only by ceasing to keep horses at all will we stop them ageing).

I also feel that in principle, any caring horseowner is and should be, free to breed from their mare; an obstructive barrage of regulations aren't as useful here as help, encouragement, education; in fact, preventing this section of the population from pursuing their hobby would just keep a generally caring, eager, responsible group of breeder/consumers from participating, while regular stud owners keep up the overproduction. When we also have some stud owners who, to my eye, seem to have no clear policy as to what discipline or aspect of usefulness they are breeding for, who still think OTHER people should be stopped, it really gets my goat. But that brings me back to the "one person's fugly is another person's pride and joy" aspect.


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## henryhorn (24 April 2010)

What a sensible reasoned reply Jamesmead, I completely agree.
I woulod also suggest that one person's fugly may be a damn sight more use than another's world class horse. 
For me above all else I rate temperament and soundness, it's no use breeding a superstar if it's a nightmare to ride or breaks down.
It also doesn't follow that every horse comes out as good as the one before, one combination I have used four times one year produced a foal who lacked the temperament and conformation of the previous four (all of whom are proving really nice horses in every way) yet now it's based with a capable rider and it's muscled up, it's looking as if it may be a little superstar regardless.
To me it was what you would call a fugly (vile word actually) but it's actual adult self is proving me wrong. 
Nothing would please me more than for it to be successful competing and stay in a permanent home.
I would be against legislation regarding who may or may not be allowed to breed, totally futile if someone with oodles of cash and bu**er all idea of training got a licence, and the lady down the road with years of hands on breaking experience got a no because her facilities didn't match.
One of the worst things about the UK at the moment for me is the constant legislation, every week we hear of something sneaked through such as now my F reg horsebox may not pass it's plating because some bod in Europe has decreed the sides have to be no higher than knee height of a person..
No, leave it alone and as JM says, education is the key...


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## GinnieRedwings (25 April 2010)

Thank you Jamesmead and Henryhorn for making such obviously sensible points. I got annoyed by the very same points Jamesmead got irritated about on many occasions and I'm glad I am not alone.

The "irresponsible breeding" issue is not created by the average hobby breeder (a category that includes myself), who will do the best for their horses, not matter how "fugly" (and I too resent this word for all sorts of reasons not least for having had all sorts of really enjoyable experiences onboard what could have been described as a serious fugly, who proved to be one of the most useful horses ever). The average hobby breeder will no doubt find a very good home for their youngstock when/if the time comes and I think the BHS is hugely misguided in targeting them. The big breeders and the racing industry, with their "perfect facilities", post & railed paddocks and huge foaling boxes are the ones who produce so much "wastage" (who they will sell to anyone at any price) in their quest to produce the next top SJ or Grand National winner. Also, the travelling community who breed indiscriminately and often bring a wider welfare issue to the table.

IMO, not having the "proper" facilities (within reason, of course) does not make you unfit to breed and unless there is a true welfare issue, hobby breeders should really be allowed to carry on breeding a replacement for their much loved pony-club mare without being made to feel inadequate.

On the subject of there being too many horses to go round, the "responsible euthanasia" issue ought to be addressed too. Since the racing industry was shamed into changing their policy of putting to sleep every horse that had outstayed their usefulness on the track, the leisure market has been inundated with ex-racers, some of which are proving to make very nice leisure horses, and some of which are most definitely not. Not all ex-racehorses are fit to become leisure horses, not all the "wastage" from competition breeding are fit to become leisure horses and pushing "failed" dressage divas and ex-racehorses onto unsuspecting teenage girls, who can be seen hopelessly overhorsed and petrified on flashy prancing animals, snorting like dragons and spooking at their own shadows at local shows is NOT the way to go. 

And don&#8217;t get me started on the subject of the &#8220;wastage&#8221; resulting from bad, unsympathetic production of young horses. Perhaps, just perhaps, some of the above-mentioned &#8220;wastage&#8221; ought to be put down for welfare reasons &#8211; i.e. if they cannot make themselves useful either for the competition or the leisure markets, then they are bound to be passed from pillar to post, go through bad dealerships and &#8220;interesting&#8221; methods of retraining, go from inadequate home to inadequate home, acquiring more quirks and bad manners along the way, becoming more and more open to mistreatment &#8211; as let&#8217;s face it a lot of people still think that a good hiding is the way to go to deal with difficult behaviour. Euthanasia CAN really be the kindest way and producing less foals will not solve the issue of there being too many horses floating around which for whatever reason (and mostly through no fault of their own) are and will always be unfit for purpose.


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## Alec Swan (15 May 2010)

JM, HH & GR,

three eminently sensible responses.

Licensing breeders?  Brilliant idea,  and it can then join up with the rest of the ill thought out and pointless legislation which is foisted upon us.

Every person has the right to own a horse,  and to breed with it if they choose.  Everybody also has the right to make their own mistakes,  and I've made mine.  

Few,  HH,  will have your knowledge and experience,  and that isn't a patronising remark.  It's a fact.  I would suggest that 90% of breeding attempts are experimental,  and the best can get it wrong.  Some of the nicest riding horses have come from herds where a stallion was run with a band of mares.  Not everyone considers possible matings as you do,  and both success and failure will arrive,  in unequal measure,  for them.

The reason,  JM,  for the "equine overload",  and that was an accurate appraisal,  is in part because we have rather shot ourselves in the foot,  by banning the export of live horses for the meat trade.  I am NOT condoning this practice,  and nor would I want to see it reinstated.  I would however,  think that it is a contributing factor to the disposal problems of the less than suitable.  The person who buys a useless riding mare will always consider that she may have a second career,  with predictable results.

Education?  of course,  but do you really think that those who mass produce,  will actually listen?  They probably work on a success rate of 10%,  but what of the remainder?

GR.  Your depressingly honest comments are entirely right.  It's just the way of the world.  Some will listen,  whilst  others wont.

I don't have any answers to the points which you have raised,  with the possible exception that Legislation will hurt as many as it will help.

Alec.


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## DanielleAngel (17 June 2010)

lillith said:



			How about rather than licensing breeders we license horses. They have passports allready, make it illegal to breed a horse that has not been licensed for breeding by whoever is out there judging the breed. Sport horses licenced by SHB, exmoors by the exmoor society ect. To be licenced to breed a horse/pony mustnot have any mahoosive conformation glitches and must not have any heritable conditions and must fit in with the aims of the relevant soc. If you can't get your brilliant s/j licenced with it's breed soc because it doesn't have a pretty enough face licence it with a s/j body who don't care about the face. Breed to the horses who are licenced by the people who do what you want to do....
		
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Agree with this 100%
As far as I know, this is what they do back in Germany, and some brilliant horses come out of there.


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## golden_revolution (13 September 2010)

I think this campaign is a great idea..
Seeing some of the welfare cases (need I mention Spindles farm) from people irrisponsibly breeding/owning horses that are NOT being used for aything other than to have suffering and pain inflicted on them due to not being sound or having conformation faults that affect them etc etc surely this campaign makes good, practical and logical sense??

Not only are the foals in this condition being saved from unnecessary suffering, but also are the mares (and stallions) that have to go through a lot of emotional stress and upset etc etc from actually carrying them/breeding them etc. 

I tip my hat to the BHS and have had a look recently on their website...the auction has some really great items up for bids...I have got my eye on the Robert Walker painting of him riding "George"!

http://www.bhs.org.uk/Horse_Care/Ca...ding/Donations/Donations_box/Clegg_Sarah.aspx


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## s4sugar (30 October 2010)

This seems to be an excellent idea - http://www.kentuckyhorse.org/en/art/1770/

Maybe one of the vet schools or charities could do similar?

( & bring back stallion licensing too!)


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## tristar (29 January 2011)

i think it would be not a bad idea to licence all horse breeders, a kind of educational course to be passed then licence granted, in the sense that if people were fully aware of all the responsibilities  and care needed and also costs, it would be an educational process, things like the absolute necessity to be available at foaling time, feeding and worming programmes, the selection of the sire and dam, handling of youngstock, care of the feet, the need to provide a suitable environment on some level, awareness of likely problems, all the things that happen in the breeding process, and the commitment of caring for the new born, if nothing else it would make people think before going ahead and ask the question, am i dedicated enough to see this through, and we could all learn from it or be reminded of things forgotten, it would of course be applicable to the humblest owner breeder to big studs, it could create a collection of people who could share knowledge and experiences to the benefit of the horse.
my first stallion was licenced by the ministry of agriculture vet in the days when all stallions were licenced by law, it was illigal to keep a stallion without a licence.
one of the things that holds back english horse breeding is they give me the impression that they are stallion phobic, a bit scared of the entire horse?
 on yards abroad they can have up to 50 stallions its no big deal, and if all colts are castrated at a very young age you end up doing the wrong ones, i think no stallion should be used to breed until it is full mature and one can see the full picture, ah but then that takes time and money, so maybe only the truly talented, dedicated horse person should really embark upon horse breeding.


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## brighteyes (18 May 2011)

This link is broken


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## Horsey_dreams (27 May 2011)

You only have to look at all the 'coloured sport horse' studs which have sprung up within the last 10 years, selling stock off cheaply due to the market, pretty horses but with no real purpose. Even worse is a spotted stud in the south west where they have a 15hh ish leopard spot stallion, with no confirmed breeding, they think he is a knab, he is bred to anything. Their youngstock are cheap. Whats the point, what are they trying to breed?? surely they cant be making a living from this. 
I also dont understand the people who breed a foal with the intention of selling it at weaning, whats the point! There are so many unwanted horses out there already, it must be cheaper now if you want a foal to by one than breed it yourself.


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## JanetGeorge (27 May 2011)

Achinghips said:



			The BHS had a great day organised for its volunteers at the Newmarket Stud the other day.  The highlight for me, following the discussion about responsible breeding, was seeing a young TB mare with a 3 day old at foot, being serviced.
		
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I think you must be mistaken about the foal's age.  I have NEVER heard of a mare come into foal heat earlier than 6 days post foaling (and no intelligent breeder will breed on such an early foal heat as the uterus hasn't cleansed and settled down after foaling and you're just wasting your time, the stallion's efforts - AND risking  infection to the mare.


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## lindajones (22 September 2011)

I went to the Leominster horse sales last Friday . I took with me £10 for an English breakfast . A coloured yearling gelding by the graded stallion Bazaars Texas sold for £250 to the meat man . Any breeder would have been pleased to have bred him . He was straight and nice moving . A large wealthy stud fronted by one of our top event riders ,and i mean TOP ,sold a 19 yrs old broodmare to the meat man . They should have known better ! She should have been pts at home by the people who she had given years of service to . !!  She fetched almost nothing . I for one will not be giving any more money to any eventing funds .


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## henryhorn (23 September 2011)

I despise studs who sell old horses at sales for meat money.
Any mare who has given a stud decent service deserves to die at home in her own field with minimum fuss. 
How sad about the yearling, at these prices anyone with land should be buying them up and running them on to four year olds, once ridden they have to be worth more..


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## magic104 (3 October 2011)

henryhorn said:



			I despise studs who sell old horses at sales for meat money.
Any mare who has given a stud decent service deserves to die at home in her own field with minimum fuss. 
How sad about the yearling, at these prices anyone with land should be buying them up and running them on to four year olds, once ridden they have to be worth more..
		
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Too right & that is what should of happened to Classic Storm instead she was sold through Ascot in-foal at 18yrs.  Sold to a numpty who failed to be with her at foaling (she lost the colt) & after her new owner failed to get her back in-foal she was sold on again.  What made this so sad is the mare won her owners 7 races & £17,762 in prize money & then bred them a number of foals.  Anyway she had a pampared summer & was then PTS before the winter.  For anyone who thought that might be cruel the mare had at some stage damaged her eye (which should of been removed) so we had to ensure she kept a fly mask on as & when.  She did not like being stabled & her legs had seen better days.  Storm would not have faired well in the winters that we have had.  She got the fuss & attention she deserved & then a quiet & dignified end.


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## Miss L Toe (30 October 2011)

Kill off the continental meat trade, which should make the UK market less attractive, kill off the UK meat market, don't buy cheap horses. 
Prosecute all vendors selling underweight/abused horses.
Close all these bad markets.: we need  the Daily Mail to help our cause.


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## Cortez (1 November 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			Kill off the continental meat trade, which should make the UK market less attractive, kill off the UK meat market, don't buy cheap horses. 
Prosecute all vendors selling underweight/abused horses.
Close all these bad markets.: we need  the Daily Mail to help our cause.
		
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And where will all the unwanted horses go then do you suppose?


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## Alec Swan (5 November 2011)

Cortez said:



			And where will all the unwanted horses go then do you suppose?
		
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That's easily answered.  They'll live pitiful and miserable existences,  because the disposal costs will be far in excess of the animals value.

Alec.


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## lindsayc31 (12 January 2012)

lillith said:



			How about rather than licensing breeders we license horses. They have passports allready, make it illegal to breed a horse that has not been licensed for breeding by whoever is out there judging the breed. Sport horses licenced by SHB, exmoors by the exmoor society ect. To be licenced to breed a horse/pony mustnot have any mahoosive conformation glitches and must not have any heritable conditions and must fit in with the aims of the relevant soc. If you can't get your brilliant s/j licenced with it's breed soc because it doesn't have a pretty enough face licence it with a s/j body who don't care about the face. Breed to the horses who are licenced by the people who do what you want to do....
		
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I completely agree with the above Lillith! I also think there should be an incentive for responsible British breeders and stallion owners to help keep Quality stock in this country. (See thread, should there a grant scheme...) I am in the process of purchasing my first stallion, but he is a rare colour and of high quality, he'll be licenced this year, but if he does not get the required grade when presented, I'll geld him and keep him, not continue to offer his services. I have an ex race horse, I was given her when at the tender age of 3 she was deemed no good (after winning) and I've lost track of the amount of poor quality ponies and horses advertised for £40 somewhere. I can understand concerns over breeding only top quality horses that not everyone can handle, but surely there is scope for licencing stallions who would potentially produce good all round family horses. There are ways and means, and they need to be enforced now.


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## BethanT (17 February 2012)

I totally agree with this. It really annoyes me that people breed for the sake of breeding!!! They just want the cute little foal that comes out at the end of it but forget all the money it costs as well as time. We have one livery who bred their mare and sadly lost it, but went out and bought a mare in foal afterwards cause they wanted a foal. They are now talking about putting another mare in foal which in my opinion shouldnt as she has a foul temper is is not the easiest of rides. I think what needs to be controlled is the types of mares that are being put to stud and as someone has already said the intention behind the breeding and what the foal will be used for. I see so many young horses that are just unwanted because they have been bred thoughtlessly.


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