# Fox attack on baby.



## kirstykate (11 February 2013)

Is it my imagination or did these attacks never happen before the ban?  I do hope that they start a cull before a baby/child is killed.


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## BigBuck's (11 February 2013)

I can't recall with certainty if they did or they didn't but it stands to reason that a ban would have an effect: fewer foxes being killed through hunting = more pressure on natural habitats = more foxes being pushed into urban living = urban foxes gradually losing their fear of humans (especially silly humans who think they're cutesy-wutesy pseudo-dogs and feed them  ) = more attacks of this nature.


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## kirstykate (11 February 2013)

My thoughts entirely but I cant see the blooming fluffies to allow anything sensible to be done.


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## Countryman (11 February 2013)

All this talk of city foxes forming large packs around family groups would never happen in the countryside because cubbing disperses those family groups and spreads the foxes out...


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## MillyMoomie (11 February 2013)

One of the most stupid threads I have had the pleasure of reading on here, which just proves to me that some would do anything to get the ban overturned. I may remind people i am neither a 'fluffy' a pro or anti.

I can think of 4 attacks. The most recent, 2010,2003,2002. Nothing to do with the ban. 

Most of my pro friends use the argument that hardly any foxes are caught anyway so which is it? You either make such a difference that these extremely rare albeit very distressing attacks will NEVER happen. In which case, yay go for it. Or you barely catch any foxes so how is the act of fox hunting ever to be considered cruel? 

You all confuse me. If you could all speak with one reasonable voice i would listen.


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## MillyMoomie (11 February 2013)

Just to be clear, Ban being 2006. I can think of 2 before and two after. Before one of sneakys tries to catch me out!


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## MillyMoomie (11 February 2013)

My bad , commencement 2005. Is that right?


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## Countryman (11 February 2013)

Personally I am not sure that the Hunting Ban has affected fox numbers in cities.

However, as I said, the problem with foxes forming packs doesn't happen in the countryside due to cubbing...


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## JackAT (11 February 2013)

I'm not sure whether the ban would have had any effect on urban fox populations. Most of the attacks I have heard about have been in London, so for that to stack up, the countryside would have to be so overpopulated that foxes would migrate deep into the city and set up in territory. Not to mention the behavioural adaptations required to cope with a completely different environment.

I don't know if this is typical of a foxes natural behaviour, but I'm struggling with the geography. I think it's more related to cities full to the rafters of humans that love to dispose of food carelessly and feed the pretty little foxes. 

Also, if there's a central London/Birmingham/Manchester etc pack that has been stopped from hunting since the ban, allowing the fox population to spiral, it would be news to me!


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## happyhunter123 (11 February 2013)

This incident took place in a city, with an urban fox-a quite different creature to that found in the countryside. Urban fox attacks, or urban foxes in general have *nothing* to do with rural fox hunting. No link in the slightest can be made.
Stories like this, of course, do slightly help our case because it takes away the 'cute' image foxes have. But we _must_ be careful that hunting people are not accused of inventing stories like this.
The antis, I see do not seem to believe that this incident took place. Which proves how mad they really are. Maybe they think foxes are cute vegetarians?
I don't doubt that it happened, but such incidences are rare.
Once again-*NO* link can be made between urban foxes and fox hunting!


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## Hunters (12 February 2013)

Agreed, urban foxes very unlike rural foxes.

It's the townies leaving out food for foxes that makes them less timid of humans. Even my aunt feeds them despite my protestations, although she may be less keen now lol !!


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## Pale Rider (12 February 2013)

How many incidents is this, two or so in a decade.
Trying to make out this is in some way connected to the hunting ban is for morons.
Children are at more risk from their parents than foxes.


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## VoR (12 February 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			How many incidents is this, two or so in a decade.
Trying to make out this is in some way connected to the hunting ban is for morons.
Children are at more risk from their parents than foxes.
		
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Very true, but, when was the last one? Answer 2011, the previous 2010, before that 2003, there is a possibility these attacks are getting more frequent IN TOWNS AND CITIES, I haven't heard of an attack in the countryside, now there may be many reasons for that, most likely the abundance of food in urban areas making the need to 'hold a territory' less important and hence, foxes forming closer 'packs', other than showing that foxes are not cuddly, cute, little creatures, but do have a vicious streak, they are predators after all, I'm not sure these attacks have any relevance to any change in the act!


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## Alec Swan (12 February 2013)

I agree with everyone else in that to attempt to link Hunting and our urban fox population,  and find any correlation,  is ridiculous.

I remember a television programe from 20 years ago,  about the expanding fox population in Bristol,  and there were those who were actually buying chicken and chips,  from take-aways,  and laying them down whilst foxes sat and waited.

Foxes are opportunists and quite happy to live as scroungers,  and as we now seem to throw away just about as much food as we eat,  so we're supporting them.  Whether that's a bad thing,  or not,  only time will tell.

Despite the fact that urban foxes seem to be quite at ease living alongside and supported by man,  I'm still a little surprised to hear that a fox entered a domestic residence,  presumably wandered about until it found a baby,  and then attacked it.  It's a claim which surprises me.

Alec.


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## Countryman (12 February 2013)

It's simple - if you have foxes that are not scared of humans, whose numbers are not controlled and who have an easy food supply (eg people leaving out food for them) you will get unhealthy packs of foxes who are not scared of humans.


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## Pale Rider (12 February 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I agree with everyone else in that to attempt to link Hunting and our urban fox population,  and find any correlation,  is ridiculous.

I remember a television programe from 20 years ago,  about the expanding fox population in Bristol,  and there were those who were actually buying chicken and chips,  from take-aways,  and laying them down whilst foxes sat and waited.

Foxes are opportunists and quite happy to live as scroungers,  and as we now seem to throw away just about as much food as we eat,  so we're supporting them.  Whether that's a bad thing,  or not,  only time will tell.

Despite the fact that urban foxes seem to be quite at ease living alongside and supported by man,  I'm still a little surprised to hear that a fox entered a domestic residence,  presumably wandered about until it found a baby,  and then attacked it.  It's a claim which surprises me.

Alec.
		
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I too find these claims a little strange.

As an aside I knew someone in Manchester who feeds foxes with canteen waste, well in excess of 20 turn up each evening. You want to hear the racket they make if she's late.


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## kirstykate (12 February 2013)

Ok, so there is no link between Urban foxes and the ban.  But surely something needs to be done to control the population of the Urban Fox before a more serious attack occurs.  I understand that this will be a difficult one.


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## Fellewell (12 February 2013)

Fox farming, it's the only way. I understand there's a huge market for exotic meat in the city.

Perhaps someone is doing it already without the overheads  Never mind horse burgers


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## Pale Rider (12 February 2013)

kirstykate said:



			Ok, so there is no link between Urban foxes and the ban.  But surely something needs to be done to control the population of the Urban Fox before a more serious attack occurs.  I understand that this will be a difficult one.
		
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Don't be rediculous dogs are more of a menace. This is just newspaper knobheads sensationalizm.


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## kirstykate (12 February 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Don't be rediculous dogs are more of a menace. This is just newspaper knobheads sensationalizm.
		
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Maybe but if a dog attacks its put down.  Something needs to be done to control these animals.


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## Pale Rider (12 February 2013)

kirstykate said:



			Maybe but if a dog attacks its put down.  Something needs to be done to control these animals.
		
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Not always.

Don't you think this is a bit of an over reaction, assuming its true?


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## kirstykate (12 February 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Not always.

Don't you think this is a bit of an over reaction, assuming its true?
		
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Why is it an over reaction?  Fox numbers in the cities are not being controlled, people are feeding them, How do you see the problem going away??  Maybe people are going to the press more but there is a problem which needs to be dealt with.


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## Pale Rider (12 February 2013)

kirstykate said:



			Why is it an over reaction?  Fox numbers in the cities are not being controlled, people are feeding them, How do you see the problem going away??  Maybe people are going to the press more but there is a problem which needs to be dealt with.
		
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Waste of time and money, foxes are keeping the rats down. I don't think foxes in the cities are a problem, far more urgent things to get wound up about.


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## kirstykate (12 February 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Waste of time and money, foxes are keeping the rats down. I don't think foxes in the cities are a problem, far more urgent things to get wound up about.
		
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Try telling that to the parents of the poor baby


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## Kaylum (12 February 2013)

kirstykate said:



			Try telling that to the parents of the poor baby
		
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Agreed why idiots are feeding these animals I have no idea. If they are living on rats then they are less likely to if they are being fed by humans and encouraged into human spaces.


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## VoR (12 February 2013)

Kaylum said:



			Agreed why idiots are feeding these animals I have no idea. If they are living on rats then they are less likely to if they are being fed by humans and encouraged into human spaces.
		
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An excellent point 'Kaylum', if foxes were in fact keeping themselves fed on rats in urban then no-one could possibly have any problem with that, in fact it would be encouraged, but, with the amount of easy access 'left-overs' from bins, etc, how many of these 'opportunist, scavengers' are likely to waste energy chasing rats?

As for dogs being more of a menace, shame on anyone who says this, the owners are the menace, not the dogs!


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## Maesfen (12 February 2013)

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...858214142.30009.112780528766342&type=1&ref=nf


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## kirstykate (12 February 2013)

Maesfen said:



http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...858214142.30009.112780528766342&type=1&ref=nf

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LIKE LIKE LIKE  A picture tells a thousand words


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## maryk91 (12 February 2013)

A fox is a fox, ie a predator.  Like all predators it will take the easiest prey it can, or preferably scavenge.  A new born baby is ideal prey size for a fox, similar to a lamb or piglet, and if people encourage foxes by feeding them or carelessly disposing of food near to human habitation, then they will lose their fear of people.  I wouldn't leave a dog alone with a baby and I wouldn't encourage a wild predator near my house.  People in cities seem to be so far removed from the natural world that they have no common sense about it.


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## Maesfen (12 February 2013)

Agree with MaryK above.

Sorry, I love this one too!  There's always humour from a disaster.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...a.310516638305.150031.505623305&type=1&ref=nf


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## Fellewell (12 February 2013)

Maesfen said:



			Agree with MaryK above.

Sorry, I love this one too!  There's always humour from a disaster.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...a.310516638305.150031.505623305&type=1&ref=nf

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Aw thanks Maesfen, absolutely brilliant!


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## VoR (12 February 2013)

Maesfen said:



http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...858214142.30009.112780528766342&type=1&ref=nf

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Maesfen said:



			Agree with MaryK above.

Sorry, I love this one too!  There's always humour from a disaster.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...a.310516638305.150031.505623305&type=1&ref=nf

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Sheer class Maesfen


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## Pale Rider (12 February 2013)

Sheer class Maesfen 

I'd agree that people feeding foxes in the city is a problem.

I'd agree that people who are crap dog owners are a problem.

Seems to be a pattern here.


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## Maesfen (12 February 2013)

Lol, just sorry I can't take the credit for them!


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## criso (12 February 2013)

It's not just people feeding foxes, our rubbish is collected every two weeks, you have to use the council provided and rationed wheelie bins which are usually overflowing by day 5 and for food waste we are given plastic bags to put it in which not only attracts foxes but much worse imo rats.  

Add to that half eaten takeaways which even if they are put in a bin are easily accessible.

There is a patch of ground opposite me where foxes live, there are cubs every year.  No one feeds them, they don't have to as there is plenty of food around anyway.


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## Pale Rider (12 February 2013)

criso said:



			It's not just people feeding foxes, our rubbish is collected every two weeks, you have to use the council provided and rationed wheelie bins which are usually overflowing by day 5 and for food waste we are given plastic bags to put it in which not only attracts foxes but much worse imo rats.  

Add to that half eaten takeaways which even if they are put in a bin are easily accessible.

There is a patch of ground opposite me where foxes live, there are cubs every year.  No one feeds them, they don't have to as there is plenty of food around anyway.
		
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Interesting that on a forum like this where people are keen on fox hunting, that the mention of urban foxes has people running around like headless chickens, excuse the pun,. Most city dwellers appear to like to see foxes about. In reality foxes pose little threat to anyone, babies or whatever and all this is hype and a bit suspect too, if reports of the latest incident are true. However, country people like to display their superior knowledge of foxes and spout the biggest load of old twaddle they can make up, so we hear of packs forming who have lost their fear of humans stalking our children in the dead of night.
Urban foxes scavenge, and take rats, thats about the size of it, and have been in the cities for decades, well before WWII.
The relationship between rural folk and foxes is an odd one where the fox takes care of the hunt and the hunt take care of the fox. I well remember discussions in our kitchen when I was a child about the best place to let a fox go on the hunt days.


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## kirstykate (12 February 2013)

So who or what controls the number of Urban Foxes?  Which obviously needs to be addressed?


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## criso (12 February 2013)

kirstykate said:



			So who or what controls the number of Urban Foxes?  Which obviously needs to be addressed?
		
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Availability of food, cars and mange.

The average lifespan of an urban fox is 15 - 18  months, it was 18 a few years ago but saw some recent figures which suggested it had gone down to 15months.  Most are hit by cars  but mange is enough of a problem that some  get it bad enough to succumb to it.

How much food is available will also control numbers.

There are a few round here and don't cause any problems but then I wouldn't approach one and would treat it like the wild animal it is.   I would also never leave any accessible window or door open as living in London I'd be worried about far worse getting in than a fox.

BTW there is a theory among local people that the attack was probably a dog about the same size but because the family were not allowed pets as part of their tenancy and would be evicted they are lying.


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## kirstykate (12 February 2013)

criso said:



			Availability of food, cars and mange.

The average lifespan of an urban fox is 15 - 18  months, it was 18 a few years ago but saw some recent figures which suggested it had gone down to 15months.  Most are hit by cars  but mange is enough of a problem that some  get it bad enough to succumb to it.

How much food is available will also control numbers.

There are a few round here and don't cause any problems but then I wouldn't approach one and would treat it like the wild animal it is.   I would also never leave any accessible window or door open as living in London I'd be worried about far worse getting in than a fox.

BTW there is a theory among local people that the attack was probably a dog about the same size but because the family were not allowed pets as part of their tenancy and would be evicted they are lying.
		
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I see I have never lived in a city so I wouldnt have a clue.  As for the theory well the family should be............


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## Goldenstar (12 February 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			You all confuse me. If you could all speak with one reasonable voice i would listen.
		
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But why on earth would pro hunting people talk with one voice , it's a group of individuals and within the group there will differing views on all sorts of things ,it's not like the moonies holding different thoughts on things is allowed if you are pro hunt.


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## cptrayes (12 February 2013)

criso said:



			BTW there is a theory among local people that the attack was probably a dog about the same size but because the family were not allowed pets as part of their tenancy and would be evicted they are lying.
		
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I find this extremely unlikely. I read that they were council tenants in a house, not a flat. Every Council/Housing Association house tenant I know is allowed to keep pets.

Neither would they be evicted for keeping a dog, they would simply be told to rehome the dog.

It sounds like just the kind of "blame the parents" stuff that comes up every time a child is injured by an urban fox. Why would any self-respecting fox who's been fed by humans and lost its fear NOT try to take a soft plump helpless little animal that smells of milk and poo?


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## Pale Rider (12 February 2013)

kirstykate said:



			So who or what controls the number of Urban Foxes?  Which obviously needs to be addressed?
		
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Sarcoptic mange has severely reduced fox numbers and the total number of urban foxes in Britain is probably much the same as a decade ago, depending.


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## cptrayes (12 February 2013)

Why is this thread in "Hunting"?

This incident has absolutely no relationship to fox hunting whatsoever, other than it was a fox.


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## cptrayes (12 February 2013)

BigBuck's said:



			I can't recall with certainty if they did or they didn't but it stands to reason that a ban would have an effect: fewer foxes being killed through hunting = more pressure on natural habitats = more foxes being pushed into urban living = urban foxes gradually losing their fear of humans (especially silly humans who think they're cutesy-wutesy pseudo-dogs and feed them  ) = more attacks of this nature.
		
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Except that it is widely accepted that there are FEWER foxes in the countryside since the ban, partly because the farmers remove them instead of leaving them for the hunt.


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## Pale Rider (12 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Why is this thread in "Hunting"?

This incident has absolutely no relationship to fox hunting whatsoever, other than it was a fox.
		
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I suppose if you demonise urban foxes it may have a knock on effect and people may decide the fox hunting ban was a bad idea.

If fox rural numbers are falling though, no need to reverse the ban.


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## Goldenstar (12 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Why is this thread in "Hunting"?

This incident has absolutely no relationship to fox hunting whatsoever, other than it was a fox.
		
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Probally because the fox was errr.... hunting.


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## Pale Rider (12 February 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Probally because the fox was errr.... hunting.
		
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Lol, there really should be a like button on some of these.


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## criso (12 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I find this extremely unlikely. I read that they were council tenants in a house, not a flat. Every Council/Housing Association house tenant I know is allowed to keep pets.

Neither would they be evicted for keeping a dog, they would simply be told to rehome the dog.
		
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I personally think it could just as easily be a fox or a dog and it is pure gossip from people  in the area who claimed other inaccuracies in the news reports.  

but a no animal clause in a tenancy or even in the leasehold terms (remember most london houses as well as flats are leasehold ) is very common in both local authority and private sector housing.   Maybe it's a London thing.

And yes they would evict someone, especially if they were looking for an excuse if the family had been problematic.  With such a long waiting lists and pressure on housing they are getting much quicker to evict and if someone is evicted because they have broken the terms of a tenancy agreement they would be deemed to have made themselves voluntarily homeless and the council would not have to rehouse.

What I can say is that I don't walk home at night dodging packs of foxes, there don't seem to be any more than when I first moved to London 20 years ago and they don't seem any more aggressive though they have always been much less wary of humans than in the country.

There will always be foxes while there is so much available food waste lying around like a buffet and maybe people should treat them like the wild animals they are and keep their doors shut to keep out foxes, rats, dogs, kids, burglars and the occasional tramp who you might find sleeping in your hallway.  (the latter actually did happen a couple of weeks ago)


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## Alec Swan (12 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Except that it is widely accepted that there are FEWER foxes in the countryside since the ban, partly because the farmers remove them instead of leaving them for the hunt.
		
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Would that be a "widely accepted" opinion,  your view,  or a fact?

Alec.


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## cptrayes (12 February 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Would that be a "widely accepted" opinion,  your view,  or a fact?

Alec.
		
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It's something that is said to me by pro hunters on every single discussion I have had with them on this forum Alec. I assume that they are telling me the truth. 

Whatever, this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with fox hunting in the HHO sense of this particular forum.


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## happyhunter123 (12 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Whatever, this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with fox hunting in the HHO sense of this particular forum.
		
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Agreed. Should be in news section. 

Anyway, I don't think it looks good for hunting people to look like they're involved or bothered with incidents like this. They shouldn't comment on them publicly (in the press). Hunting should_ stay out of it_. Otherwise you end up with stupid stories like this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/07/stop-hounding-britain-urban-foxes


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## cptrayes (12 February 2013)

criso said:



			I personally think it could just as easily be a fox or a dog and it is pure gossip from people  in the area who claimed other inaccuracies in the news reports.
		
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Do you live on that council estate, Criso  or is this Chinese whispers?  Who exactly told you this local gossip and who told them?


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## criso (12 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Do you live on that council estate, Criso  or is this Chinese whispers?  Who exactly told you this local gossip and who told them?
		
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I'm up in North London, different class of foxes up here 

Friend of a friend was posting on fb claiming to live on the estate.  Claimed there were factual inaccuracies in the Daily Fail story
Did I ask my friend how long they had known this person? how reliable they are?  No

That's why I referred to it as gossip and theories not fact or a reliable report.  

Ps I didn't notice this was in the Hunting forum, I always browse via New Posts so sometimes don't notice.


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## Alec Swan (12 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			It's something that is said to me by pro hunters on every single discussion I have had with them on this forum Alec. I assume that they are telling me the truth. 

Whatever, this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with fox hunting in the HHO sense of this particular forum.
		
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I can't accept your first paragraph,  for the simple reason that very few farmers actually give a flying fig,  about,  or know anything of,  their very own fox population.  Despite what they may tell you,  your advisors are leading you astray!   Your second paragraph,  I agree!  This is a strange section for such debate!! 

Alec.


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## Maesfen (13 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Except that it is widely accepted that there are FEWER foxes in the countryside since the ban, partly because the farmers remove them instead of leaving them for the hunt.
		
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That might have happened where you are but not around here.


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## VoR (13 February 2013)

It's all a huge conspiracy, clearly the parents and any witnesses are hunting folk or alternatively are totally incapable of identifying a fox from a dog....

That said, I agree with those that say this has nothing to do with hunting BUT, I have noticed of late, largely due to the weather/being flooded out I dare say, that foxes near us (countryside btw) are getting bolder and are being seen more often near houses and in daylight...............will 'an attack' happen in the countryside? Who knows. Will it have any relevance to hunting? Probably not, just an observation!

Also, (I agree with Maesfen) whilst we as a hunt get reports of many foxes being shot, there do seem to be as many, if not MORE foxes in our area (this is by no means scientific I accept again, just an observation).


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## cptrayes (13 February 2013)

Maesfen said:



			That might have happened where you are but not around here.
		
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Sorry Maesfen, I thought I had made it clear but obviously not. It is not what has happened in my area, because it's clear from many of my previous posts on hunting that my area has not been hunted on horseback for 20 years.

It is, however, what I have been told in posts by supporters of fox hunting each time I participate in any long running discussion about fox hunting on this forum. 

I don't  know what area you are in, but maybe it is one of the many with a hunt which is again hunting fox, or perhaps your farmers just don't snare and shoot them like they do in other areas?


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## Goldenstar (13 February 2013)

Well I stick my head up and say I see far fewer foxes than I did before the ban ,
Not a scientific view in any way just my impression based on hacking around.


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## happyhunter123 (13 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Maybe it is one of the many with a hunt which is again hunting fox
		
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That's quite an allegation to make. One of the _many_ areas is going a bit far. Which reminds me that I was going to PM Countryman. Anyway, lets not get onto that. 

Fox numbers around me have probably dropped in the past few years, partly to do with the loss of hunting (the pack that I hunt with carries out no form of fox control) but largely due to the growth in shooting. I rarely see a fox now.


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## JanetGeorge (13 February 2013)

happyhunter123 said:



			Anyway, I don't think it looks good for hunting people to look like they're involved or bothered with incidents like this. They shouldn't comment on them publicly (in the press). Hunting should_ stay out of it_. Otherwise you end up with stupid stories like this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/07/stop-hounding-britain-urban-foxes

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Actually, that was a surprisingly sensible article - considering the author is RABIDLY anti-hunting and has been a thorn in our sides for a long time.  He has received quite substantial funding from LACS (though that was 'laundered' in an attempt to keep it secret) and from IFAW (there were attempts to disguise that too!)

I haven't seen too many hunting people jumping on this bandwagon though - these attacks ARE by urban foxes, who are very different to rural foxes.  They're unlikely to happen in rural areas as rural foxes tend to have more fear of both humans and dogs!


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## happyhunter123 (13 February 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			Actually, that was a surprisingly sensible article - considering the author is RABIDLY anti-hunting and has been a thorn in our sides for a long time.  He has received quite substantial funding from LACS (though that was 'laundered' in an attempt to keep it secret) and from IFAW (there were attempts to disguise that too!)
		
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Well, it's silly to suggest that reports of these attacks have been 'drummed up by the hunting lobby', don't you think? The antis are always wheeling him out anyway!


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## Maesfen (13 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			, or perhaps your farmers just don't snare and shoot them like they do in other areas?
		
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We're very lucky in that we don't have many like that, never have, we're not a particularly big shooting area; yes there are small shoots but they're predominantly locals and they will take foxes if they upset their pheasants or ducks but not as a norm'.  The only one most farmers get their hair off about are the badgers which are over running the place and causing untold damage.  They're also regularly seen during the day now too which was unheard of before.


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## ForeverBroke_ (13 February 2013)

I live in the countryside, so perhaps I'm not qualified enough to comment.. But are urban foxes REALLY that brave?! Not having a dig - just a general question. 

IMO culling and whatever of urban/foxes would do nothing whatsoever. In two, three, five years the population would be back to what it had previously. Its also not addressing the problem, which as mentioned above is that of litter and people not treating wild animals as 'wild.'  

I also wont start on how a fox would be the least of my worries if I was to leave the back door open..


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## weebarney (13 February 2013)

Has any of these fox attack people ever explained how in the middle of winter a fox just walks into their house?


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## JanetGeorge (13 February 2013)

happyhunter123 said:



			Well, it's silly to suggest that reports of these attacks have been 'drummed up by the hunting lobby', don't you think? The antis are always wheeling him out anyway!
		
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Of course it was silly - but mild by HIS standards!


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## cptrayes (13 February 2013)

weebarney said:



			Has any of these fox attack people ever explained how in the middle of winter a fox just walks into their house?
		
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Yes. They lived in a Council house. There was a hole in the back door. The Council had it on their list to repair but had not got around to it. I think you will find a number of holes in doors or windows if you visit any typical Council housing estate of a reasonable size.


Why are some people so apparently desperate for this to be a made up incident?


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## criso (13 February 2013)

Or Dad didn't shut the front door properly when he went to pick up the other kids from school depending which paper you read.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...tacks-boy-as-father-demands-cull-8492552.html


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## EAST KENT (13 February 2013)

Even out here,after the ban,foxes have multiplied.A local "free range" chook farm with more than adequate electric fencing was having problems,in one night of fox calling they nailed eleven.the neighbouring little wood had seven breeding earths in it,those too were dealt with.It used to be rare to see mangey foxes in the real country,not so now,and over crowding is one of the causes.Anyone up for forming the Bromley and Bexley foxhounds????


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## weebarney (13 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Yes. They lived in a Council house. There was a hole in the back door. The Council had it on their list to repair but had not got around to it. I think you will find a number of holes in doors or windows if you visit any typical Council housing estate of a reasonable size.


Why are some people so apparently desperate for this to be a made up incident?
		
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I'm not saying it made up just dont know what people are thinking leaving holes in their doors if thats the case, council house or not its no excuse just sounds lazy.


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## weebarney (13 February 2013)

if the door wasnt shut how did mam not feel the frickin freezin winter air coming through the house? You cant have a window cracked open in my house at the moment without feelin like you're in a fridge!


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## JanetGeorge (13 February 2013)

Fleabite said:



			I live in the countryside, so perhaps I'm not qualified enough to comment.. But are urban foxes REALLY that brave?! Not having a dig - just a general question. 

IMO culling and whatever of urban/foxes would do nothing whatsoever. In two, three, five years the population would be back to what it had previously. Its also not addressing the problem, which as mentioned above is that of litter and people not treating wild animals as 'wild.'  

I also wont start on how a fox would be the least of my worries if I was to leave the back door open.. 

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I lived in Elephant & Castle and then Kennington (during the week) for 3 years in the mid to late '90s.  I was surprised by just how many foxes I saw - and also how unafraid of humans many of them appeared to be.  Hell, on the morning of the 1st Countryside March, I left my flat about 6am and a big dog fox was strolling across the back parking area of the flats.  I had my JR terrier on the lead and he nearly pulled me over, and barked like hell.  The fox was only about 50 yards away - and continued his stroll!  And a couple of months earlier I took 2 foxhound pups up to London to be collected there by their huntsman (long story - but they had been stolen and recovered in the Midlands - but had to go back to Kent.)  On the Sunday night I took them for a long walk down round the Oval to tire them out a bit (so they wouldn't wreck my flat) and I nearly lost them several times as they spotted foxes and tried to chase them - again - the foxes showed NO sign of concern at the sight (and sound) of two foxhounds trying to hurtle at them - dragging me - despite the fact we were very close! 

The one thing I DID notice when out with friends at night was that very few people actually spotted them.  Maybe they saw them and mistook them for a cat - but most of the time they just didn't see them until I pointed them out!


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## cptrayes (14 February 2013)

criso said:



			Or Dad didn't shut the front door properly when he went to pick up the other kids from school depending which paper you read.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...tacks-boy-as-father-demands-cull-8492552.html

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And is that a crime now?

I repeat  my question, why do some people seem to be so absolutely desperate to believe that this was not a fox attack?


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## Nancykitt (14 February 2013)

Very interesting, Janet - but yes, my experience is that urban foxes are pretty fearless. I think there was a report in H&H last year about a man being 'accosted' by a fox in an alleyway on his way back from the shops and he gave it his garlic bread just to get it off him. We laughed about it at the time, but it's not funny at all really. 

Two of my friends lived in south Essex until quite recently. When I went to stay with them about five years ago they told me that they had a 'pet' fox who would come to their garden to feed and they bought fresh chicken pieces for him. Sure enough, every day the fox would turn up for his chicken pieces - absolutely no fear at all - and would definitely have come into the kitchen if he could. At one stage he turned up with several cubs. They thought that all this was wonderful - presumably because they'd only ever lived in towns and there was a lot of novelty attached to seeing a real live fox so close. They eventually saw the error of their ways - the foxes became a terrible nuisance with their fighting, excrement everywhere - many of the neighbours called in pest control. Now my friends have moved to a rural area they have a very different view of foxes!
On Saturday's meet one of the members, who is a young gamekeeper, said that he is convinced someone is releasing urban foxes on to his patch. They stroll around with no fear at all. He saw a fox caught in some fence wire last week and went to free it, expecting it to be very scared (as a wild fox would be), but this one showed no fear and gave him a very nasty bite on the hand. Even after it had been freed, it actually went for him. 
Don't doubt it - these animals are a real pest.


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## cptrayes (14 February 2013)

weebarney said:



			I'm not saying it made up just dont know what people are thinking leaving holes in their doors if thats the case, council house or not its no excuse just sounds lazy.
		
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You don't know enough about tenants. My friends have Professionals as tenants at £1,000 a month rent who won't get a screwdriver and put a screw back in if it comes out. 

May be these people just didn't have the money to pop to B&Q and buy a piece of wood, a saw, a screwdriver, a drill, and some screws? People on council estates tend not to be that flush with cash.


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## Nancykitt (14 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I repeat  my question, why do some people seem to be so absolutely desperate to believe that this was not a fox attack?
		
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I think it's because they just do not want to face up to the fact that foxes can be a problem.
It's shattering their illusion of the 'beautiful wildlife' thing.

When this was discussed on the radio just after the incident, people were coming on saying things like 'How can people accuse foxes of this sort of behaviour? We've destroyed so much of our wildlife, we need to protect everything we've got left!'
Some callers tried to point out that not only is the urban fox a wild animal out of its natural environment (and therefore potentially a problem), but also that rural foxes do a lot of damage to various forms of wildlife. 

The problem is that too many people simply have no idea about wildlife, conservation and so on. While I think that programmes like 'Springwatch' have many positives, it can't be denied that it's pretty much all lovely fluffy cutey stuff and we know that life's just not like that.


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## cptrayes (14 February 2013)

Nancykitt said:



			I think it's because they just do not want to face up to the fact that foxes can be a problem.
It's shattering their illusion of the 'beautiful wildlife' thing.
.
		
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I can see what you mean. They were absolutely rife in Bristol 22 years ago, I dread to think how many there are now the bins are only collected every 2 weeks.

I understand that they find the smell of baby poo extremely attractive - perhaps because it signals the presence of something small and helpless. I wonder if culling would do anything, or if parents just have to stop leaving any small child unattended in a garden or any room with an open door/downstairs window.


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## weebarney (14 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			And is that a crime now?

I repeat  my question, why do some people seem to be so absolutely desperate to believe that this was not a fox attack?
		
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No one has said it a crime! Just very strange people do not notice having a front door open in winter. Sorry but i dont take word for word everything i read in the papers!


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## weebarney (14 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			You don't know enough about tenants. My friends have Professionals as tenants at £1,000 a month rent who won't get a screwdriver and put a screw back in if it comes out. 

May be these people just didn't have the money to pop to B&Q and buy a piece of wood, a saw, a screwdriver, a drill, and some screws? People on council estates tend not to be that flush with cash.
		
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I know no matter how poor i was i'd do my best my newborn baby not to have a hole in my door. Piece of wood from a skip, borrow a screwdriver or just push something against the door. Of course you will always get lazy people who cant be ar!!d to lift a finger and just want to blame someone else.


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## criso (14 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			And is that a crime now?

I repeat  my question, why do some people seem to be so absolutely desperate to believe that this was not a fox attack?
		
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No but it really is very stupid in London.

I can think of 3 personal  experiences where doors were left open.  A house I lived in where the front door was left open, workmen popped out to get some supplies and a burglar was straight in.  It was split into bedsits with individual locks and I was lucky the workmen came back and disturbed them just as they got to mine 

Current flat, front door to communal hall was left open once last summer: kids from the block over the road came in and played running up and down the stairs and broke bannister rails; Last time, only a few weeks ago someone coming in late didn't shut the door properly, tramp got in and was sleeping on the stairs outside my neighbours flat. A friend of mine was burgled in the summer when  he left a ground floor bathroom window open a crack while he popped to the shops.  

If you leave a front door open in London someone opportunist will get in, human or animal, and if your wife is upstairs and your baby is downstairs then maybe you need to be extra careful.  I'm sure he will be from now on.

I get really annoyed with these moral panics that get stirred up for non events.  Assuming the article someone posted is reasonably factual in the incidents it refers to, someone was saying the same thing about the "fox problem" in 1973.  The incidents it lists are not that common and don't justify the overreaction.  

And to suggest there are packs of asbo foxes running round the London streets waiting to take down the unwary which will be solved by sending a pack of foxhounds down Oxford St is silly.

Seems simple to me, don't feed them, keep your front doors and ground floor windows closed (and locked if you want to keep out human intruders) and make an effort to keep the streets free of waste food which may mean going back to weekly rubbish collection and more frequent street cleaning especially around takeaways.  

But it does make a great story for the Daily Mail to get outraged about.


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## criso (14 February 2013)

Nancykitt said:



			Some callers tried to point out that not only is the urban fox a wild animal out of its natural environment
		
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But is it out of its environment? foxes are very adaptable and opportunist and if the article was accurate and this was raised in 1973, have been living with us at least 40 years.  

There have always been wild animals that have adapted to take advantage of our lifestyles and live alongside us and foxes are now there along with rats, mice, pigeons and squirrels as part of an urban environment.


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## Hunters (15 February 2013)

The only answer is to hunt them down on mopeds...., londoners generally have a dislike of horses and their mess.

'Asbos' could then be issued to offending foxes. & the RSPCA could issue leaflets with a helpline number on for any distressed foxes


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