# Bakers



## Cinnamontoast (24 August 2011)

This is from another forum. What appalls me are the people saying 'Oh well, you don't know what's in your kid's food either, so I'm not going to worry'.

As I said on there, dogs and kids don't have a choice. We do. Ok, some dogs might tolerate nothing else, but if you have a choice, surely people read the ingredients and do _some_ research on food?

'Below is some info that is widely available on the web, please have a read and make your own judgement.

The law has recently changed and animal foodstuff manufacturers can no longer list 'permitted colours/additives' on products sold in quantities greater than 10 kilos.

Well, Bakers and the like can no longer say "permitted X Y Z", they now have to TELL us the crap they put in their food and, at last, I can now show it to the people who doubted it.

At the end of the day, dogs don't give two hoots if their food is bone shaped, heart shaped or brightly coloured; this is done as a marketing ploy for the buyers. As a responsible pet owner and rescue worker, I am not happy to feed dogs in my care THIRTEEN E numbers:



E320 - has been found to be tumour-producing when fed to rats. In human studies it has been linked with urticaria, angioedema and asthma

E321 - banned for use in food in Japan, Romania, Sweden, and Australia. The US has barred it from being ...used in infant foods. So bad McDonalds have voluntarily eliminated it from their products.

E310 - Banned from children's foods in the US because it is thought to cause the blood disorder methemoglobinemia

E172 - Banned in Germany

E132 - Can cause skin sensitivity, a rash similar to nettle rash, itching, nausea, high blood pressure and breathing problems. One of the colours that the Hyperactive Children's Support Group recommends be eliminated from the diet of children. Banned in Norway.

E102 - TARTRAZINE - A trial on 76 children diagnosed as hyperactive, showed that tartrazine provoked abnormal behaviour patterns in 79% of them

E110 - Sunset Yellow has been found to damage kidneys and adrenals when fed to laboratory rats. It has also been found to be carcinogenic when fed to animals

E104 - One of the colours that the Hyperactive Children's Support Group recommends be eliminated from the diet of children. Banned in Australia, Japan, Norway and the United States.

E171 - Banned in Germany

E153 - Banned as a food additive in the United States of America. Suspected as a carcinogenic agent.'


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## ThePinkPony (24 August 2011)

Well you'll all be happy to know ive taken my dog off of bakers. shes on harringtons now and loving it.

Thanks to AAD for shining a light on this.


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

It makes me sad that people are happily feeding this crap along with all the other bad foods out there.


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## ThePinkPony (24 August 2011)

katielou said:



			It makes me sad that people are happily feeding this crap along with all the other bad foods out there.
		
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Instead of feeling bad why not try to do more.

I had read the back of bakers years ago, and didnt think anything of it.

Since coming on here and reading about  it ive changed because people like the OP who are trying to enlighten us with fussy dogs.


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## Native Speaker (24 August 2011)

Hell, I knew it was bad, but not that bad! 

Needless to say, Bear The Border will never be offered Bakers, let alone fed it.  As it contains two banned E numbers, I can't buy it here, even if I wanted to. Which I most deffo don't ..............


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

ThePinkPony said:



			Instead of feeling bad why not try to do more.

I had read the back of bakers years ago, and didnt think anything of it.

Since coming on here and reading about  it ive changed because people like the OP who are trying to enlighten us with fussy dogs.
		
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Try to do more how?
I do soooo much education on dog food here and IRL.
I am at every dog event in 100 mile radius of my home with a booth on dog nutrition.
I have turned numerous people on this board onto raw feeding (i think it was me and KarenK that were the "raw feeders" on here)


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## Cinnamontoast (24 August 2011)

Should I write to Hugh Fearnley-whatdoyoumacallhim?! Seriously, I would love to do some sort of awareness campaign. Maybe write to all the big supermarkets with the list of E numbers and carcinogens it has?


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## ThePinkPony (24 August 2011)

^^ thats what i meant, sorry katielou, i didnt mean it to sound like i was having a go.

i mean like WHAT can be done? petitions?


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## CorvusCorax (24 August 2011)

Well when you see what some people feed their kids, the dogs have no hope 

Thanks for posting!


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## gill84 (24 August 2011)

Bakers is utter cr*p!! And expensive cr*p at that. Just like pedigree, wagg, pal, etc!! Owners choose what looks most appealing they don't read all the rubbish that goes into it!


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## Cinnamontoast (24 August 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Well when you see what some people feed their kids, the dogs have no hope 

Thanks for posting!
		
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Not having a pop, CC.


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## Dobiegirl (24 August 2011)

I presume this is the thread on the Pet Forum Community which Ive been following, I think the trouble is the message needs to get out to the wider community. Most people who use these forums are responsible people who are looking for answers and are happy to accept what other posters tell them.

The wider public never question what is on the packet of their dogs feed, hell they dont even train their dogs.

If you think Jamie Oliver had a hard task trying to convince kids and their parents about what went into their kids school dinners you have an even harder task trying to get them to change Fidos food.

I think the answer lies with Bakers themselves, if the evidence is presented to them for their perusal  and they realise there is a section of the dog owning community against their food they might just  change their ingredients. The last thing they want is bad publicity.

Good Luck.


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## CorvusCorax (24 August 2011)

Eh? I know you weren't!!


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## karen_c (24 August 2011)

Earlier this year I took on a 2yr old Great Dane who was being rehomed due to marriage break-up - she and her very fat Labrador brother were being fed on this c**p.

You can imagine, given the amount of rubbish in the food, what was being produced at the other end 
Thankfully on proper food there is much less to pick up now


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## Cinnamontoast (24 August 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			I presume this is the thread on the Pet Forum Community which Ive been following, I think the trouble is the message needs to get out to the wider community. 
I think the answer lies with Bakers themselves, if the evidence is presented to them for their perusal  and they realise there is a section of the dog owning community against their food they might just  change their ingredients. The last thing they want is bad publicity.

Good Luck.
		
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Ooh, who are you on there? I was surprised to see people still feeding it on there.  

I agree, I think Bakers need to be approached but I think little old me sending an email will result in a corporate load of b******s reply with some nonsense about what a great food it is. I wonder if I could link some threads on here and on the other forum? Might make them realise how 'uphauled' we are.



CaveCanem said:



			Eh? I know you weren't!!
		
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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			Ooh, who are you on there? I was surprised to see people still feeding it on there.  

I agree, I think Bakers need to be approached but I think little old me sending an email will result in a corporate load of b******s reply with some nonsense about what a great food it is. I wonder if I could link some threads on here and on the other forum? Might make them realise how 'uphauled' we are.





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They are very quick to contact you and issue empty threats when you speak badly of them


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## CorvusCorax (24 August 2011)

I think someone needs to go out and take pics of the bright orange pile of steaming arse explosions which it often produces and bombard message boards with them 

There are a couple of GSDs which are walked on the same path as ours and their poos look like and are pretty much the size of horse poo, there is so much cereal!!


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## Ranyhyn (24 August 2011)

I wouldn't feed a rat Bakers.  If it looks like a pea but isn't a pea - what is it? FULL OF ADDITIVES!


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## lula (24 August 2011)

Oooh *****..

who can guess what im going to say?

i didnt know


*starts shopping for new dog food quickly*


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## Ranyhyn (24 August 2011)

Most of us were on the not knowing side at one point  

What I found: 
Behaviour improved
Coat quality improved 
Skin disorder cleared up
Stools became harder and healthier
Farts were less heinous
Anal glands stank less 

Mine are on JWB or Burns now.


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## EAST KENT (24 August 2011)

Sorry folks,but I`m with Katie Lou on this one..ALL dried foods,as a WHOLE diet are ghastly! As an additive to sprinkle as a treat onto the proper raw diet,well it probably does no harm. 
   The sooner all dogs are fed as nature intended the sooner your vet will lose money..which can only be good for all of you.


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## Dobiegirl (24 August 2011)

I would love to feed raw but my large freezer died some time ago and I only have a small one, cant afford to buy another just yet.

On the plus side the pup is virtually on raw and this will continue having a mixture of fish and meat all good quality.


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## lula (24 August 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Sorry folks,but I`m with Katie Lou on this one..ALL dried foods,as a WHOLE diet are ghastly! As an additive to sprinkle as a treat onto the proper raw diet,well it probably does no harm. 
   The sooner all dogs are fed as nature intended the sooner your vet will lose money..which can only be good for all of you.
		
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see the raw diet is all very well EK and in an ideal world i would without hestitation but like a lot of people im a busy person trying to fit my work in with looking after 2 horses one dog and a furr ball a small child and then there's the OH (but lets not mention him!)

feeding the mutt has to be easy, reasonably economical and convenient. sorry it just has to be. Plus i only have 1 dog and a tiny freezer so buying in a shed load of frozen chook carcases aint going do it im afraid.

agreed tho, dried food is rather rank and i pity my poor dog but in the summer i dont want a lot of fly infested dog tins stinking up the rubbish so im still trying to find an ideal between the both at the mo

what i buy has to be available at the supermarket or animal feed merchants.  
all recommendations from you knowledgeable ladies gratefully received!


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

Nothing from the supermarket is any good.

can you order online? If so fish4dogs is good.

James wellbeloved is ok. I know everyone says skinners and i use to because it was the same but it seems they have changed their formulas?


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## CorvusCorax (24 August 2011)

Prize Choice tripe blocks stack up in small freezer drawers really easily and keep in the fridge too, they do chicken, rabbit, fish, all sorts. From Jollyes, Pets@Home etc and between 70-90p a block, even if you want to feed one or two days a week and dry the rest of the time.
It's not hard to feed raw, I get all my other stuff out of the bargain bins at Tesco, Asda, Iceland, got two trays of lamb kidney for £2 out of Tesco yesterday and that will be the bulk of his food for two days, it's easy to do by ear.
Turkey legs from Asda are £1.80 or so and keep them busy for hours.
Tuna or aforementioned kidneys and tripe, stuff a Kong, freeze it, keeps them busy for hours.


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Prize Choice tripe blocks stack up in small freezer drawers really easily and keep in the fridge too, they do chicken, rabbit, fish, all sorts. From Jollyes, Pets@Home etc and between 70-90p a block, even if you want to feed one or two days a week and dry the rest of the time.
It's not hard to feed raw, I get all my other stuff out of the bargain bins at Tesco, Asda, Iceland, got two trays of lamb kidney for £2 out of Tesco yesterday and that will be the bulk of his food for two days, it's easy to do by ear.
		
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Agree, like whatever the hell it is on here


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## blackcob (24 August 2011)

I only have a small freezer (standard upright fridge/freezer with two freezer drawers) and, although I could do it cheaper if I had a nice big chest freezer, I feed two dogs out of it with ease. One visit to the butcher per week, which I do anyway for meat for us, but could do it all from the supermarket too, plus the odd top-up from feed merchant or pet shop (Prize Choice type blocks and bagged chunks). 

Not a great deal of thought goes into it, a few times a week I take a couple of bags of stuff out and put it in the fridge to defrost, the majority of it is chucked directly at the dog, wings are fed at high velocity in this house, I only use a bowl for things like minced tripe which tends to splatter on impact.  

Fish4Dogs is good stuff if it must be a dry food, delivered to the door, join the breeder's club (make up a kennel name) and it's £30/15kg.


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## Cinnamontoast (24 August 2011)

It costs me about £3-£4 a week to feed a dog raw. Based on a 20kg dog, I feed between 400-600g a day. It's delivered, so very convenient. I bought a big freezer cos I have three dogs and I bulk buy for a month. I just take out what I need and defrost overnight.

There are decent dried foods out there, I just think it's boring for them to eat dried stuff all the time.


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## whisp&willow (24 August 2011)

i am also guilty of liking the idea of raw-  but circumstances do not lend themselves to it up here.

i dont have the space for a big chest freezer at the moment... and even if i did i wouldnt be able to afford to fill it with meat for one dog.... from the co-op!!  

no local butcher or wholesaler to speak of up here, and its ridiculously expensive to buy meat for us to eat, let alone the dog! 

out of interest east kent/ other "barfers":  can you give me an idea of what and how much i would need to be feeding a 60 lb (ish) american bulldog?


x


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

There is something very satisfying about watching and hearing your dog chomp on a raw meal.

Maybe thats just me


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

whisp&willow said:



			i am also guilty of liking the idea of raw-  but circumstances do not lend themselves to it up here.

i dont have the space for a big chest freezer at the moment... and even if i did i wouldnt be able to afford to fill it with meat for one dog.... from the co-op!!  

no local butcher or wholesaler to speak of up here, and its ridiculously expensive to buy meat for us to eat, let alone the dog! 

out of interest east kent/ other "barfers":  can you give me an idea of what and how much i would need to be feeding a 60 lb (ish) american bulldog?


x
		
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Wrong calculation.

About 1.5lbs a day 

Abe for example has 1.2lbs a day.
Today he is having:
1 turkey leg
1/3 beef tongue
3 cubes of liver.


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## whisp&willow (24 August 2011)

1.5 lbs of what though??!!

ive read quite a bit about it-  but i find it very baffling if im honest!  


x


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## CorvusCorax (24 August 2011)

KL, I agree, really satisfying to see a dog enjoying a meal so much - I compare the pup's reaction to the kidneys to a kid the first time it tastes chocolate. And I have nicks all over my hands from the chicken-wing-incuded mad fits he takes 

Big dog as you know cannot tolerate a wholly raw diet but he does enjoy his big mahoosive bones from the butcher.
His sister used to hock everything straight back up despite much effort...

Whisp, the purists may disagree with me but I tend not to overthink it - tripe is the main body of the dog's diet, Skinners for training aid from my pockets, then chicken wings, tuna, pig's ears, whatever I find in the bargain bin, if dog is thin, feed more, if dog is fat, feed less.


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

whisp&willow said:



			1.5 lbs of what though??!!

ive read quite a bit about it-  but i find it very baffling if im honest!  


x
		
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Whatever you've got.

I try to make it equal out to about 10% bone 10% organ and 80% muscle meat over a week or more but its all by eye and no exacts.


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## Dobiegirl (24 August 2011)

As I said I would love to feed raw, as I speak/write our freezer is choc a block,my daughter bought home a big bag of ice cubes wtf because they were cheap. Glad they were cheap because there is no room in the flicking freezer.


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

I think the original post should be posted in soapbox. There are plenty of people with dogs who never come in here and as the last food post in there proved there are a lot of people that think bakers is the best.


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## blackcob (24 August 2011)

For me the best part is the poo. o)

Took them both to visit family yesterday, Ricoh went for a poo in the garden, uncle was in hysterics at the fact that he produced nothing but a fart of chalk dust, they are now known as the magical chalk-shiteing dogs. 

They'd had only chicken frames for two days as I had a glut of them from the butcher, they don't normally poop dust.


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

Mine get fed all kinds of disgusting things.


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## CorvusCorax (24 August 2011)

X-post away.....

The poo does rock. Small, compact and twice a day at most. My mother told me there was a really cheeky fox out and about....no, that's my puppy


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## CorvusCorax (24 August 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			As I said I would love to feed raw, as I speak/write our freezer is choc a block,my daughter bought home a big bag of ice cubes wtf because they were cheap. Glad they were cheap because there is no room in the flicking freezer.
		
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Yeah, that's great value for some...frozen...water?


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## Slinkyunicorn (24 August 2011)

I have just agreed with my butchers to pick up bags of bones, trimmings, offal, pluck etc at least once a week - this weeks 5 bags cost me a fiver Mollichop is going to share it with me so should cost us both a tenner a month to feed our 4 dogs

I do buy tins of tuna. sardine and pilchards etc for a change and any fish etc in the bargain sections of any supermarket I am in They both steal enough fruit and veg from my pantry to suit themselves


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## whisp&willow (24 August 2011)

katielou said:



			Whatever you've got.

I try to make it equal out to about 10% bone 10% organ and 80% muscle meat over a week or more but its all by eye and no exacts.
		
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see-  its all the maths that confuses me!!! 

my main problem is that i am over 80 miles away from any supermarkets, or pet shops such as pets at home. there are a couple of butchers "localy" but i'd need to get an idea of how much meat, and what things i'd need.  and i have a feeling it would still prove very costly?

also, if betty has any more than one bone in a week she spews...  i am first to admit- im a fan of the post bone poop though... very easy to pick up!! 

do you not need to feed veggies too??  as for all the meat that you get from wherever-  i take it you just freeze, and thaw when needed??  i seem to remember reading something about needing to freeze stuff for a certain amount of time before feeding??  what do you do with all the raw bones you pick up?  freeze them too?

also-  how often are you feeding bones?

re- fish... do you just gut them and feed them raw??  we catch lots of mackerel...!


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## lula (24 August 2011)

blackcob;9939737

Fish4Dogs is good stuff if it must be a dry food said:
			
		


			a lot of posters vouch for this brand i might give Fish4Dogs a go. ideally, id like to mix something moist into the dry food to make it a little more palatable. i will drizzle gravy on it or something like that.
not sure if thats just making it more appealing to me rather than the dog though!
		
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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

I don't feed veggies. I feed prey model raw. I don't believe dogs need veggies, dairy or grains.

I freeze it and thaw when needed but i am also happy for stuff to sit in the fridge for a week or more before i get round to feeding it.
You should freeze wild caught stuff for around 3 days if you are worried about parasites. My dogs have been on raw for years and now have acid from the gods so i don't worry about it much any more.
I feed bones as part of a meal most days.

I would say yours in being sick either because her tummy is not use to it and you have to introduce slowly or because she is having to much bone in relation to muscle meat.
Mine will occasionally bring stuff back up and then re eat it. That is fine and natural.

Fish i wouldn't gut just give whole or cut up if they need smaller amounts.


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

lula said:



			a lot of posters vouch for this brand i might give Fish4Dogs a go. ideally, id like to mix something moist into the dry food to make it a little more palatable. i will drizzle gravy on it or something like that.
not sure if thats just making it more appealing to me rather than the dog though!
		
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I agree. 
If for some reason i couldn't feed raw i would feed good quality wet food. I think it is far superior to dry food but i also understand its not easy to source a good one and its expensive.

You may try some low sodium chicken stock over the top.

Also do what blackcob said and join the breeders club so you get money off the fish4dogs


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## Oberon (24 August 2011)

I liked the idea of Raw, but had far too much on my plate to consider it...

But my Inuit has had a rash since birth, and at the age of 3 I decided I'd had enough.

I started Raw in June. I started by reading the Raw thread on here and reading this
http://preymodelraw.com/how-to-get-started/

I have two dogs, an autistic teenager, two horses and a full time job.

I am the only driver in the house. 
No-one helps me with the walking of the dogs or looking after the horses.
I am the only 'chef' in the house.

And I also mix my own horse feed supplements too.....

Not only do I manage - I ENJOY it

At first I bought chicken from Sainsburys.
Now I go to a butcher on a Friday and buy beef hearts, pork belly/shoulder, kidney, lamb breast and liver. Bones come for free. 
I bag up each day's and leave it in the fridge. It took a bottom drawer of the fridge and a drawer of the freezer (for two, large dogs).

But I have just had a new kitchen (only took 16 years to save for it!) and a new fridge freezer, so the old one has gone in the shed. 
So I am going to buy a month's worth from a specialist company that delivers to my area so I don't have to worry about getting to the butcher when winter closes in.

I was buying kibble at £12 per 15kg sack - so YES, Raw is more expensive for me. But the lack of itching and the spring in my old girl's step is priceless.


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## lula (24 August 2011)

slinkyunicorn said:



			I do buy tins of tuna. sardine and pilchards etc for a change and any fish etc in the bargain sections of any supermarket I am in

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is this fish fed raw slinky or does it have to be cooked....and likewise with butchers offal?

sorry, i havent a clue about raw feeding.


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

lula said:



			is this fish fed raw slinky or does it have to be cooked....and likewise with butchers offal?

sorry, i havent a clue about raw feeding.

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Most of the stuff in tins is already cooked isn't it?

But whatever feed it straight out the tins. Feed the offal raw but be careful not to feed much at first. It should be the last thing introduced into the diet because you will get the runny poops or spewing.


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## CorvusCorax (24 August 2011)

Re veggies, I fed the pup frozen carrots when he was teething and I still throw them to him periodically to keep him occupied. No real nutritional value but it's something to keep him busy, cheap and not full of rubbish like a lot of store-bought chews.


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## whisp&willow (24 August 2011)

oh she re-eats the spew... but she eats what comes out of her bum given half a chance...!

i am very interested in feeding raw and have been trying to convince myself to go for it...!  

like i say its just a bit scary...!  sorry to be a pain-  but would anyone give me a breakdown of what they feed over a week??  

also how would you start off feeding raw?


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Re veggies, I fed the pup frozen carrots when he was teething and I still throw them to him periodically to keep him occupied. No real nutritional value but it's something to keep him busy, cheap and not full of rubbish like a lot of store-bought chews.
		
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I made my own bully sticks in the dehydrator the other day. Just a note to warn you never to try that. My house still stinks!


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

whisp&willow said:



			oh she re-eats the spew... but she eats what comes out of her bum given half a chance...!

i am very interested in feeding raw and have been trying to convince myself to go for it...!  

like i say its just a bit scary...!  sorry to be a pain-  but would anyone give me a breakdown of what they feed over a week??  

also how would you start off feeding raw?
		
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You can start by just doing it once or twice a week to ease yourself in.

Have a look at the raw sticky i think that has lots of weekly menus in it 

Start with chicken always.
Feed a single protien source for 2 weeks before you start to add in others.
So chicken for 2 weeks.
Then add in a little pork for 2 weeks
Then add in beef for 2 weeks etc 

Have a look here:
http://preymodelraw.com/how-to-get-started/


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## CorvusCorax (24 August 2011)

I'd never really heard of raw of BARF before I came on here, TBH I found some of the posts a bit evangelical, judgmental and intimidating  but it's borne out of frustration about how large multinationals hoodwink well meaning dog owners into thinking they are feeding their dogs a 'balanced' diet full of 'everything a dog needs' with 'vitamins and minerals' and blah blah other keywords and advertising slogans.

But look at me now   and I went so far I copied KarynK's sister and got myself a black GSD to feed raw 

I still rate foods like Orijen, Fish4Dogs, Arden Grange, Skinners etc but the bin end of the market is sadly, the market leader and even one or two days of raw a week could make a huge difference to a lot of dogs.


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## whisp&willow (24 August 2011)

thanks for that:  i'l have a look at that link. 

i thought you couldnt feed pork raw???


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## Cinnamontoast (24 August 2011)

I've stuck this in Soapbox too.

For anyone switching to raw, please read the raw sticky. Some of us have spent a lot of time adding to it so it's really informative.


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## CorvusCorax (24 August 2011)

Will this get stickied?


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## Oberon (24 August 2011)

Fish should be raw and with bones in.

I gave them both a mackerel each in July and they vomited all night

It's because I went too fast. I should have chopped ONE up and added a little each day.

I've been feeding tinned pilchards in tomato sauce since then, but am ready to try again.

Unless you are able to afford organic meat, then the meat you'd get are lower in omega 3 oils. That's why fish is needed.

If someone cannot get the dogs to successfully eat it, then you can buy Wild Salmon oil to supplement.

Going too fast is the biggest mistake newbies make in Raw.

Chicken pieces only for the first two weeks, and then introduce new meats each week. Slowly, slowly to train the dog's stomach to create the right type of acid to digest the raw meat and bones.


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## Cinnamontoast (24 August 2011)

whisp&willow said:



			thanks for that:  i'l have a look at that link. 

i thought you couldnt feed pork raw???

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Yes you can. If you're worried, freeze for up to two weeks first, but my lot get it from the butcher/supermarkets direct. You can feed anything raw, just introduce slowly and one type at a time.


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## Oberon (24 August 2011)

Sorry - the quote button didn't work, the prev post is in reply to a question about fish.....


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## Oberon (24 August 2011)

whisp&willow said:



			thanks for that:  i'l have a look at that link. 

i thought you couldnt feed pork raw???

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Any bacteria in pork wouldn't stand a chance against doggie stomach acid.

Any parasites would be killed when the butcher froze it.

I told my husband that if I left his hand in a cup of my doggie's stomach acid for the night - his whole hand would dissolve.

He's scared of me now


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

Has anyone elses husband got an ego about raw feeding?

Everytime we talk to someone about the dogs my husband always throws out something like "yeah they are real dogs, they eat raw meat"


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## Cinnamontoast (24 August 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Will this get stickied? 

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If it is, I'm going to add other nutritionally poor (in my opinion ) dried foods that I personally wouldn't feed my dogs.

Wagg
Pedigree
Chappie Dry (same ingredients as Pedigree but without the colourings)
Royal Canin
Anything from a supermarket!

Please, please, please: read the ingredients and consider that dogs don't need grain and can't digest them and consider that if the dog is hyper, then it may well be the food! Skin problems can be addressed via the food. 

I'm not saying that owners must feed raw, but please consider that some dried foods widely available in supermarkets and advertised on TV contain carcinogens that are banned for human consumption. Just because the company says their product is great, it may not be!

Please use this link www.dogfoodanalysis.com to check ingredients and read reviews.


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## Oberon (24 August 2011)

katielou said:



			Has anyone elses husband got an ego about raw feeding?

Everytime we talk to someone about the dogs my husband always throws out something like "yeah they are real dogs, they eat raw meat"

 

Click to expand...

Sadly my hubby (geeky, gothy type) gips and runs away when I feed them now

I was dishing up (slightly ripe) liver the other day and I swear he ran away crying.....


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## Slinkyunicorn (24 August 2011)

lula said:



			is this fish fed raw slinky or does it have to be cooked....and likewise with butchers offal?

sorry, i havent a clue about raw feeding.

Click to expand...

As some one has already said tinned fish goes straight in the bowl (keeps the spiders out) and fresh fish is fed whole or in chunks. Fresh fish is often regurgitated and re-eaten but it just what they do to digest it I don't gut them they get fed whole with bones etc Max the Lab does a good seal impression for a whole herring

Offal is chopped into chunks - stops Max mistaking a heart for a ball - again introduce with other meat as it is rich  

As I said my two nick fruit and veg when they feel like itD


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## Slinkyunicorn (24 August 2011)

Oberon said:



			Sadly my hubby (geeky, gothy type) gips and runs away when I feed them now

I was dishing up (slightly ripe) liver the other day and I swear he ran away crying.....
		
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What do you reckon he would do to the lungs mine were eating the otherday?


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

slinkyunicorn said:



			What do you reckon he would do to the lungs mine were eating the otherday?

Click to expand...

How about beef tongue or stomach juice soup?


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## Oberon (24 August 2011)

He's ok as long as he doesn't have to interact with or smell the meat.

For a vampire, he's a real wimp


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

Oberon said:



			He's ok as long as he doesn't have to interact with or smell the meat.

For a vampire, he's a real wimp

Click to expand...

Abe's a vampire hunter maybe he can help 







Vampire hunter by AussieHike!, on Flickr


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## Oberon (24 August 2011)

ooh where did you get that?


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## soloabe (24 August 2011)

Oberon said:



			ooh where did you get that?
		
Click to expand...

Fetching tags.

He also has this one:






Sam Elliot  by AussieHike!, on Flickr


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## Ranyhyn (25 August 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Sorry folks,but I`m with Katie Lou on this one..ALL dried foods,as a WHOLE diet are ghastly! As an additive to sprinkle as a treat onto the proper raw diet,well it probably does no harm. 
   The sooner all dogs are fed as nature intended the sooner your vet will lose money..which can only be good for all of you.
		
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I think that's a bit rough, a few dry dog food companies are doing a lot to improve their food.

This is what I feed mine and on 3x to the vets in 4 years between them...well...
http://www.wellbeloved.com/products/dog/lamb__vegetable_kibble/adult.aspx

I'd genuinely love to know, what if anything in here, is bad - I tried to do a lot of research on what dogs shouldn't have and this came up as a really good choice, no cereals, grain, additives/colours/preservatives...etc etc  But I'm always keen to learn more!


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## bex1984 (25 August 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			Should I write to Hugh Fearnley-whatdoyoumacallhim?! QUOTE]

YES!! I was thinking this the other day. His ban on fish discards will theoretically increase the amount of fish on the market that people don't alwasa buy - so stick it in good quality dog food, and consequently drop the price of such food, AND ban ***** like Bakers. Everybody wins 

Click to expand...


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## Alec Swan (25 August 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			Should I write to Hugh Fearnley-whatdoyoumacallhim?! Seriously, I would love to do some sort of awareness campaign. Maybe write to all the big supermarkets with the list of E numbers and carcinogens it has?
		
Click to expand...

I haven't read all the posts on this thread,  so this may have been covered,  but whilst you're at it,  you can contact those vet's surgeries who promote and sell the monstrously high protein,  and dangerous puppy feeds.  

OK,  so vets aren't dieticians,  generally,  but surely they can see the results of a protein content,  often at 30%+,  and the growth problems which are all so often presented to them.  Perhaps it's a case of win-win,  for them.

My own local surgery have finally taken Hills from their shelves.  It took some time to explain that _"balanced"_ was what the food wasn't,  despite the claims on the packaging.  

Alec.

ps,  a good thread,  c-t.


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## BBH (25 August 2011)

lula said:



			see the raw diet is all very well EK and in an ideal world i would without hestitation but like a lot of people im a busy person trying to fit my work in with looking after 2 horses one dog and a furr ball a small child and then there's the OH (but lets not mention him!)

feeding the mutt has to be easy, reasonably economical and convenient. sorry it just has to be. Plus i only have 1 dog and a tiny freezer so buying in a shed load of frozen chook carcases aint going do it im afraid.

agreed tho, dried food is rather rank and i pity my poor dog but in the summer i dont want a lot of fly infested dog tins stinking up the rubbish so im still trying to find an ideal between the both at the mo

what i buy has to be available at the supermarket or animal feed merchants.  
all recommendations from you knowledgeable ladies gratefully received!
		
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^^^^^^^^ this.

I am far too busy and enjoy a lack of space to feed raw. Nor would I want to handle loads of carcasses.

My BM girl does very well on her JWB. Her protein comes from chicken, beef, salmon and sardines / pilchards. The vet asked me what she was fed when she had her booster last week and said it was fine and she was very healthy.

I do wish supermarkets would sell JWB though - make it so much easier than having to drive out of town.


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## lexiedhb (25 August 2011)

Tis true about raw- i simply to not have the space to store chicken carcass, or the time to go get them every day.

Dex is on wainwrights, about to be swapped onto skinners. he also has alot of fish (salmon mouse, sardines, tuna) as his bottom can become quite vile on cooked meats other than chicken. One day i will get a chest freezer and dedicate it to raw dog food!!


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## Hedwards (25 August 2011)

BBH said:



			^^^^^^^^ this.

I am far too busy and enjoy a lack of space to feed raw. Nor would I want to handle loads of carcasses.

My BM girl does very well on her JWB. Her protein comes from chicken, beef, salmon and sardines / pilchards. The vet asked me what she was fed when she had her booster last week and said it was fine and she was very healthy.

I do wish supermarkets would sell JWB though - make it so much easier than having to drive out of town.
		
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I agree with this too ^^^^

I dont actually have a standalone freezer, just a small under-counter fridge with a small freezer section at the top. Millie was on Duck for a while, but I'd need three or four times the space and to spend a lot more money to be able to afford duck for both of mine now. They are fed Skinners salmon and rice at the moment, and seem to be doing very well. Personally I dont think Raw would work with my lifestyle as it is currently (although once I've won the lottery and i'm a lady of leisure it'd be completely different!)

Unfortunately many people dont understand that different dog foods contain different quality foods - they also dont understand that diet affects health - crazy as it sounds. Bakers et al will always do well, its cheap and incredibly easy to get hold of - many people only have a chance to get dog food in the weekly supermarket shop - they will be completely oblivious to 'feed merchants' and opportunities online.

Just the same as people feed their kids crap, think its ok to exercise the dog with a quick run in the garden every single day, and will still rub a dogs nose in any mess they make in the house, and those that dont think clearing up after their dogs _wherever_ they are is important (this one really gets my goat!!)


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

Alec, I wish more people would take heed of that rocket fuel amounts of (the wrong type of) protein in dry food = puppy growing too fast, storing up huge problems for later life message.......

Sorry, I don't get the busy thing, believe it or not  up until a couple of weeks ago I was working office hours every day with a 2 hour daily commute  takes me two minutes to stuff a pair of kongs in the evening and less to chuck the dog a couple of chicken wings or pig's ears. I do not feed chicken carcasses, just the wing (or whatever is in the bargain bin).
There's some image of people slaving away in a shed chopping up bodies but frozen raw food is as compact, easily stored and handled as dry.

Re JWB, I think it is horrendously expensive for what you actually get!


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## Ranyhyn (25 August 2011)

It is expensive really, I agree and probably more viable for me than most as one £40 sack lasts me absolutely yonks with the two terriorists, plus I don't have a mortgage/rent, livery or many bills so it is a small amount really.


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

Skinners is half the price  (No, no, really, I do not work for them )


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## Slinkyunicorn (25 August 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			It is expensive really, I agree and probably more viable for me than most as one £40 sack lasts me absolutely yonks with the two terriorists, plus I don't have a mortgage/rent, livery or many bills so it is a small amount really.
		
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See if you can get hold of Skinners hypoallergeniuc feed - the same as JWB only half the price! Its about £20 for a 15kg sack in stead of £40. It is also made by a family firm instead of a massive huge conglomerate lke JWB is.....


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

You guys know that a huge amount of brands are all made at the same big factory?
And that all the big names, including JWB, are owned by huge commercial conglomerates?
Masterfoods own Chappie, Pal, Pedigree, James Wellbeloved, Royal Canin, among others, Nestle owns Bakers, Beta, Bonio, Pro Plan, Spillers, Winalot.

Not saying this is wrong, but a lot of those brands would have you believe they are autonomous family run, home made etc!!! When they are all churned out under one roof in lots of instances.


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## Ranyhyn (25 August 2011)

The skinners lamb and rice sensitive here is £28
http://www.seapets.co.uk/products/d...kinners-lamb-and-rice-15k.html?ref=googlebase


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

I get the duck and rice for £21 from the pet shop. They are also very helpful/accommodating if you ring or email


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## lexiedhb (25 August 2011)

I got it from here - delivered free

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/dog-food-cat...-and-trial-duck-and-rice-dog-food-15kg-p-2434


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## Ranyhyn (25 August 2011)

They can't have that one as there's cereals in it... x


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## Slinkyunicorn (25 August 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			The skinners lamb and rice sensitive here is £28
http://www.seapets.co.uk/products/d...kinners-lamb-and-rice-15k.html?ref=googlebase

Click to expand...


Still cheaper than the 40 odd quid for JWB Shop around and head for your local feed merchants - they usually stock it as it is for working dogs - so VAT free to!


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## lexiedhb (25 August 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Sorry, I don't get the busy thing, believe it or not  up until a couple of weeks ago I was working office hours every day with a 2 hour daily commute  takes me two minutes to stuff a pair of kongs in the evening and less to chuck the dog a couple of chicken wings or pig's ears. I do not feed chicken carcasses, just the wing (or whatever is in the bargain bin).
There's some image of people slaving away in a shed chopping up bodies but frozen raw food is as compact, easily stored and handled as dry.
		
Click to expand...

But only if you have a freezer big enough to accomadate. I have a cupboard under the stairs in which i can store 15kg of dry food for the 6 weeks or so it takes him to eat it. I do not have freezer room to store 15kg of raw meat. So by "time" i meant i do not have the time to get to the butchers/ supermarket every other day in order to feed the dog- not that chucking em a carcass is any more time consuming than filling a kong with dry.


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

As mentioned, those blocks are very compact and they can be refrigerated as well as frozen  even if you just feed a couple a week  and I buy two boxes of chicken wings from Tesco (again, fridge not freezer) every fortnight.


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## lexiedhb (25 August 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			As mentioned, those blocks are very compact and they can be refrigerated as well as frozen  even if you just feed a couple a week  and I buy two boxes of chicken wings from Tesco (again, fridge not freezer) every fortnight.
		
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Blocks? He does get fish 3-4 times a week, and chicken if we happen to have it, other meats tend to make his botty stink- including the wainwrights trays, JWB pouches ets etc


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

Prize Choice

http://prizechoice.co.uk/products/mincedmeats/index.php


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## lexiedhb (25 August 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Prize Choice

http://prizechoice.co.uk/products/mincedmeats/index.php

Click to expand...

Ah ok- seen em in the P@H freezer actually.... but I thought feeding raw alongside kibble was a huge no no?


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

Do you ever see me clearing out said freezer?


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## ThePinkPony (25 August 2011)

Well this is a really helpful thread.

Our working dogs  all get a mix of  dry food, bones from the butcher and tripe occasionally, but their workload is massively increased this time of year and if we dont hoof the dry food into them as well as bones they will drop weight super fast. In the winter they go back to dry 20% protein food for maintenance with the odd plucked pheasant or duck, and any fallow bones going.

The terrier (who was on bakers) always looks so good on it, she downright refuses to eat james wellbeloved and she does look really good on bakers, her poos are firm, her glands need doing far less, her coat looks shiny as ever and she keeps her weight on, something which at 14 she struggles with (i think its worth saying that at 14 she is still a lean, hyper and healthy dog (ahem...human) with  no dulling of her coat, weird smells or old aged paunch)

BUT i did give her half a fallow leg bone last night to chew on, (we had the meat as a roast but there was loads on the bone still for her) and three hours later found it pretty much untouched in my BED! actually under the covers, so im assuming raw meat really isnt her thing.

Disclaimer, when i say she is human, i mean it.


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## Ranyhyn (25 August 2011)

My vet said the other day that one of the main things he sees done which annoys him is people feeding wet or adding protein on top of a dry complete diet..?

ETA mine didn't want JWB either when they came off their heinous puppy food.  Few days later they sure wanted it, they weren't up for killing themselves   who wants to eat salad and lean meat when they have had maccy d's every day of their lives?


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## lexiedhb (25 August 2011)

http://www.surreypetsupplies.co.uk/prize-choice-2kg-frozen-freeflow-minces.html

is it really this cheap?


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## Slinkyunicorn (25 August 2011)

lexiedhb said:



http://www.surreypetsupplies.co.uk/prize-choice-2kg-frozen-freeflow-minces.html

is it really this cheap?
		
Click to expand...

Yep

They also do 2kg bags of frozen dog cocaine....erm sorry chicken wings

My cat also has the freeflow chicken - loves it


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## blackcob (25 August 2011)

Another thumbs up for Prize Choice here, they stack neatly in the freezer drawer and would easily keep for a week in the fridge. 

I get my butcher to do me roughly 2kg of chicken wings split into four freezer bags, fits into a small freezer drawer with room to spare, again a bag can keep for a week in the fridge if needs be - £5 a time.  

I've just looked at ASDA online and they are £1.89/kg, I need to start braving the unwashed hordes.


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## Ranyhyn (25 August 2011)

Or get home delivery


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## lexiedhb (25 August 2011)

Prize choice do chicken wings too......

Ok once back off hols Fat pants needs to be on raw..... so will read sticky- go to butcher with low cut top on (for bones) and rely on prize choice......

One small problem the one and only thing I have ever seen him spit out is a piece of raw chicken....................


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

I don't feed raw and dry at the same time/the same meal, it is not recommended.
In fairness a lot of that food is *sold* as an accompaniment to dry, wet and mixer was a very big idea in the 1980s.

Of course raw doesn't suit every dog, two of mine included.


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## Ranyhyn (25 August 2011)

Yeah agreed, I don't know if it was down to human-ising the meal (like a meat and veg idea...)


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## lexiedhb (25 August 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			I don't feed raw and dry at the same time/the same meal, it is not recommended.
In fairness a lot of that food is *sold* as an accompaniment to dry, wet and mixer was a very big idea in the 1980s.

Of course raw doesn't suit every dog, two of mine included.
		
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Thats what i was reading- "coats dry in lovely meaty yadda yadda".... I know back in the day mum used to feed meat with a biscuit mixer....


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

I just feed it standalone.


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

Woo, over 1k views. Come on Bakers addicts, you know it makes sense


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## Native Speaker (25 August 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Woo, over 1k views. Come on Bakers addicts, you know it makes sense 

Click to expand...

I check in here every so often, just to see where the thread is going. 

Have to say, it's making for interesting reading!


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## martlin (25 August 2011)

ermmm, I just wanted to say, I pay less than £15 for my Skinners 
This time of year my dogs feed themselves, mainly on rabbit, but as we all know, cos Stephen fry has told us, if you eat only rabbit you will die... so I still fill their bowls with Skinners Maintenance Field & Trial.
As to RAW, I'll be very honest here - I just couldn't be bothered, really. Also, all this talk about cheap meat... How come we want to be ethical about what meat WE eat, but it is allright for our dogs to eat meat that has been battery/mass produced?


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

But your dogs do eat raw  rabbits are raw 

I really don't get where this 'it's so hard, it's so much effort, it's so complicated' thing comes from. 

Re meat - I don't really eat meat unless I am out at a restaurant/cafe. 
Those Prize Choice blocks are mostly by-products anyway,would rather my dog ate it than it was incinerated.
I am not particularly ethical either  my father used to work for battery farms and hatcheries and eventually went into inspection roles, I am comfortable with my dietary choice and the choices I make on behalf of my dogs.


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## Ranyhyn (25 August 2011)

Very, very good point Martlin.


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## martlin (25 August 2011)

CC, it's not so much effort, no time, difficult - I just don't want to do it, I am not that keen on handling raw meat and certainly not comfortable with my dogs running around carrying dead, raw fish, that's all.
Rabbits are raw, very raw indeed  as long as they are consumed in the fields or somewhere behind the muckheap, I don't mind  

I am not questioning your dietary choices at all, I'm not comfortable with eating non free range/ethically raised meat myself, though


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## soloabe (25 August 2011)

You think the shot they put in dog food is ethically raised? No it has also been proven to contain levels of pheno. Yay for euthanised animals in your dog food.

For what its worth almost all of my meat comes from local farms but I would sure as bell rather feed them poor quality meat than almost any of the dog food available in England.


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## Ranyhyn (25 August 2011)

katielou said:



			You think the shot they put in dog food is ethically raised? No it has also been proven to contain levels of pheno. Yay for euthanised animals in your dog food.
		
Click to expand...

What?  All dog food in the uk (you don't specify dry or wet or any brand) doesn't come from ethically farmed animals AND contains pheno?  That's a pretty huge claim!


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

No one ever heard about threatening a horse with the dog food factory?!
I would say the vast majority of meat products in mass-produced dog food was from anmals which were themselves mass-produced in the cheapest possible way.


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## lexiedhb (25 August 2011)

Well i sure as hell can not afford to keep fat pants on ethically reared, organic, rare breeds!


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## soloabe (25 August 2011)

Neither can I. But then he doesn't eat steak.

It is much cheaper for the farmer to give me bags of waste than it is for him to pay to have them taken away.

Not all dog food is bad but most of it I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.


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## Ranyhyn (25 August 2011)

It's a really good point though guys, you think about what you are trying to achieve by feeding your dog WELL.  It's abourt welfare.  So why on the way to giving your dog a good standard of welfare - should you poo on another animals welfare.

I have first hand experience of how expensive it is to farm animals WELL.  In order to be viable it needs to ellicit a good return.  If there is high demand for cheap meats, a corner willbe cut somewhere - and where will that be?  

Why demand the best for your dogs, but expect the cheapness that reflects the worst for the animal they are eating?

Just a few musings!


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

Do you really think the meat and fish content in JWB/Skinners, indeed, Pedigree, Bakers etc is organic, free range, etc?

Which particular parts of the raw diet are we talking about that are so unethical?
Tesco chicken wings from the bargain bin? Lamb kidneys? Meat by products which would be chucked or incinerated? Loads of people here are saying they get their meat from their local butcher. Hardly unethical.


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## Ranyhyn (25 August 2011)

You misread my point, I'm debating - at no point did I say my stance on it... 

No I don't think the meat in JWB is ethically treated - BUT one thing I can say is price doesn't motivate what I feed my dogs.  I wonder would the raw brigade still feed it with such gusto - should they have to pay through the nose for it?

For those that wouldn't you have to ask is the real motivator price or welfare?


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## martlin (25 August 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			It's a really good point though guys, you think about what you are trying to achieve by feeding your dog WELL.  It's abourt welfare.  So why on the way to giving your dog a good standard of welfare - should you poo on another animals welfare.

I have first hand experience of how expensive it is to farm animals WELL.  In order to be viable it needs to ellicit a good return.  If there is high demand for cheap meats, a corner willbe cut somewhere - and where will that be?  

Why demand the best for your dogs, but expect the cheapness that reflects the worst for the animal they are eating?

Just a few musings!
		
Click to expand...

Thank you! Glad somebody understood my point 

Just to clear one thing - I don't care much for organic, organic is good for the soil, not necessarily for the animal raised on it


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## lexiedhb (25 August 2011)

martlin said:



			Thank you! Glad somebody understood my point 

Just to clear one thing - I don't care much for organic, organic is good for the soil, not necessarily for the animal raised on it 

Click to expand...

Me either on the organic front- amazing what they can use as pesticides because they are themselves "organic". Not everything in nature is nicey nicey LO)L


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

Welfare of course, for me personally, it would be much, much cheaper for me to feed JUST Skinners and nothing else, or indeed, Bakers  to me price is the motivator for a lot of the NON raw 'brigade'. How many times do we see here people saying that suggested foods that might suit their dogs better in terms of allergies or intolerances or coat condition is 'too expensive'.

My older dog's food is almost £40 a sack. I have been through a lot of heartache trying to find a diet and a lifestyle for him which means he is not in discomfort or pain. I will do whatever it takes to keep that dog stable. The food I used to feed him, which has sadly been discontinued, was, reading the label, certainly not a premium food and it was cheap. But he wasn't tearing his hair out. I cannot feed him raw, merely top up his diet with it.


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## lexiedhb (25 August 2011)

katielou said:



			Neither can I. But then he doesn't eat steak.

It is much cheaper for the farmer to give me bags of waste than it is for him to pay to have them taken away.

Not all dog food is bad but most of it I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
		
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I can not believe you do not feed Abe fillet every day- very true in your situation- only here said farmer does not have any waste himself.


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## Cinnamontoast (25 August 2011)

I've been told this thread can't be stickied as it stands, (possibly something to do with the brand names being bandied about) so I'm going to start a new thread about ingredients to avoid and recommended dog foods. 

It would be fabulous if you could all contribute to the new thread so we have an easy guide for people wishing to know more or people new to dog ownership. 

Could someone perhaps add dry food to the new thread that they have used and can recommend? I feed raw and am quote prejudiced towards it, but I wouldn't dismiss some dry food: not all of it is awful.


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## Cinnamontoast (25 August 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			You misread my point, I'm debating - at no point did I say my stance on it... 

No I don't think the meat in JWB is ethically treated - BUT one thing I can say is price doesn't motivate what I feed my dogs.  I wonder would the raw brigade still feed it with such gusto - should they have to pay through the nose for it?

For those that wouldn't you have to ask is the real motivator price or welfare?
		
Click to expand...

The welfare of _my dogs_ is paramount. I don't really care what it costs: my only dependents are my pets. I confess I don't feed them free range except eggs (can't bear to buy battery ) but I don't worry about how much it costs if I want to get them nice food. I do like that I can feed them cheaply and I like a good bargain, who doesn't? However, if I ever switch back to kibble, it would only be the best and IMO, that would probably be Orijen or an equivalent. Stuff the cost!


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## Oberon (25 August 2011)

A majority of the meat that I feed is beef heart and tripe.

Not many people buy that to eat, so it's cheap.


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## EAST KENT (25 August 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			I haven't read all the posts on this thread,  so this may have been covered,  but whilst you're at it,  you can contact those vet's surgeries who promote and sell the monstrously high protein,  and dangerous puppy feeds.  

OK,  so vets aren't dieticians,  generally,  but surely they can see the results of a protein content,  often at 30%+,  and the growth problems which are all so often presented to them.  Perhaps it's a case of win-win,  for them.

My own local surgery have finally taken Hills from their shelves.  It took some time to explain that _"balanced"_ was what the food wasn't,  despite the claims on the packaging.  

Alec.

ps,  a good thread,  c-t.
		
Click to expand...

Trouble is Alec they make out they are bloody dieticians! And the gullible believe everything that drops from their lips!I mean,obviously a breeder who has bred and reared champions with long lives for forty years cannot possibly know as much as him,having had a couple of lectures by Pedigree .And of course he has LETTERS after his name..so he must know more..well actually not.
 I now issue a little text to my puppy owners warning them about their first vet visit..I.E.   you wil be subject to an attempt at selling dried "balanced" puppy food,you will be offered flea spot ons,this puppy does not have fleas,you will be asked to book in for neutering.,plus the vet will endeavour to find a reason for you to return said puppy for some "genetic defect"...usually the perfectly normal overshot jaw that a bull terrier should have at 10--12 weeks old.
  Rant over,from a very pissed off breeder!


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## ThePinkPony (25 August 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Trouble is Alec they make out they are bloody dieticians! And the gullible believe everything that drops from their lips!I mean,obviously a breeder who has bred and reared champions with long lives for forty years cannot possibly know as much as him,having had a couple of lectures by Pedigree .And of course he has LETTERS after his name..so he must know more..well actually not.
 I now issue a little text to my puppy owners warning them about their first vet visit..I.E.   you wil be subject to an attempt at selling dried "balanced" puppy food,you will be offered flea spot ons,this puppy does not have fleas,you will be asked to book in for neutering.,plus the vet will endeavour to find a reason for you to return said puppy for some "genetic defect"...usually the perfectly normal overshot jaw that a bull terrier should have at 10--12 weeks old.
  Rant over,from a very pissed off breeder!

Click to expand...

 such a good post.

We have had this so many times with the spaniels, ''oh, well i must say, this hip feels a little tight... (yeah yeah) or that i need to invest in £300 pounds worth of ear syringing and drops, specialist shampoos for skin conditions ( i TOLD you, she isnt I'll, just really really dirty, she does have a job you know!) 
Eye drops and salves for a million random things that *could* go wrong with them because *sometimes* it does.

I hate the implication that i dont care about my dog because i wont spend £20 quid on a tiny bottle of crap to clear out the scum in my dogs ear, a tissue will and does suffice.

ANd the FLEAS. omg how many times does that come up.. yet rarely do they pressure you into wormer or bother to educate you in the different types.

Im so happy we have our vet, who just wants to get the job done and regale you with a story about in the old days.


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## brighteyes (25 August 2011)

martlin said:



			ermmm, I just wanted to say, I pay less than £15 for my Skinners 
This time of year my dogs feed themselves, mainly on rabbit, but as we all know, cos Stephen fry has told us, if you eat only rabbit you will die... so I still fill their bowls with Skinners Maintenance Field & Trial.
As to RAW, I'll be very honest here - I just couldn't be bothered, really. Also, all this talk about cheap meat... How come we want to be ethical about what meat WE eat, but it is allright for our dogs to eat meat that has been battery/mass produced?

Click to expand...

See, I was going to ask this very thing...how can I scour the shelves for ethically produced meat for us (often coming home empty-handed) and happily chuck bags, trays and packs of cheaply-sourced meat and bones from Lord only knows where, for my dog?  

I have looked at free-range chicken thighs and drumsticks but can't bring myself buy them, as where do I go to from there?  

Anyone???


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

ThePinkPony said:



			''oh, well i must say, this hip feels a little tight...
		
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Vet scanning my dog's bladder a couple of years ago told me his hips were bad and he would probably be crippled by five, after lots of prodding and poking and rotating of legs.
Had I been a more gullible or less aware owner (OMG he is a GSD so therefore he MUST have HD..) I would have believed her, however a partner at the same practise did a digital x-ray and said he had some of the best hips he had seen, having taken x-rays for scoring over many years.
He just did not like getting poked and prodded by a silly woman....same one I heard charging a guy £500 for an op and then telling him the bitch would go lame again because ALL GSDs get HD eventually.

And girl at local practise said pup had 'a lot of movement' in his cruciates - HE WAS SIX MONTHS OLD!!! and an unusual gait. No, that's how GSDs move, it's long and low, baby!

I do love my proper vet, who (BACK ON TOPIC!!!) was threatened by legal action by a firm selling a food with a name not unlike a small mountain, because he discouraged a client from feeding it.


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## EAST KENT (25 August 2011)

Pissed off breeder back again! Anyways..what`s all this "balance" stuff? Do wolves balance their grub? No ,whatever is going is the name of the game,how many crippled with rickets wolf cubs do you see? Packed with worms ,yes,but that`s another theory of mine..
  Like KL mine are on basic prey diet,a mix of whole chook frames,meaty  bones,head meat/tripe mix and raw eggs a couple of times a week.Sometimes,if they look like they need a bit of body a handful or two of Laughing Dog biscuit is added,or sometimes the ghastly dried..it will be a cheapie/working dog one (no VAT),as said don`t rate any  of them.The only odd one out there is Fish4Dogs,and if it were cheaper probably I would use more of it.
     The only two exceptions amongst my lot is Deliah..who is twelve and prefers her pick `n mix bowl of dried to add to whatever meat she is offered in the evening.At twelve she`s allowed;then of course little Miss Lucy,again a biccy mix plus ,at the moment,Tesco`s best beef mince..hand fed..but she`s allowed anything,being special.
  Amounts? Well the Mali gets three chook frames,a bullie oneand a mini bulie half a frame. How much trouble is it,if stuck for time ,to go `round with my bucket of lovely fresh chooks and give them out at bedtime? How satisfying for them and me to hear the happy crunching/munching noises as we shut down at around 10 pm.
   Sometimes my weekly butcher collection has big bags of steak trimmings in it..oh then it`s Christmas! My dogs look great,have lovely oil in their coats and being ill is a rareity.Vets bills mostly relate to whelping and vaccinations on puppies.Oh! And the myriad health checks breeding dogs should have..and mine do.


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

Stop lying, we all know the Mali gets fed on fresh scrotes and burglars


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## soloabe (25 August 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			I can not believe you do not feed Abe fillet every day- very true in your situation- only here said farmer does not have any waste himself.
		
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I know poor little waif 

He's happily munching on beef tongue right now.


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## EAST KENT (25 August 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Stop lying, we all know the Mali gets fed on fresh scrotes and burglars   

Click to expand...

Oh he will be if he ever gets a chance! We could feed the remains into the humongous incinerator!


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## MurphysMinder (25 August 2011)

Wow, a lot to catch up on.  Just a couple of things I have noticed in skim reading this thread :
Martlin, the Skinners F & T Maintenance is a lot cheaper than the hypoallergenic varieties, it is £14.99 at my suppliers.  However it does contain contain wheat, maize , barley etc.  I think a lot of people who are quoting Skinners F & T on here are referring to the Duck & Rice, Lamb & Rice etc which is gluten free.
I agree vets aren't nutritionalists, nutrition is only a small part of their learning and as EK I think some breeders of long standing quite probably have as much knowledge.  In my daughters first year at Vet Uni a certain dog food manufacturer gave the students so many freebies it was unbelievable.  I still have a couple of bright red slip leads, a lap top bag and insulated drink holders that she passed on to me.  This imho is done to get certain brand names into the students heads so when they are in practice the same companies can then persuade them to promote their feed.


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## EAST KENT (25 August 2011)

Which reminds me..quite a few years ago I used to get lower legs of cows out of the abbatoir skip ,when collecting the tripes each week,..anyway, the Council Kennel Inspector looked and asked "Whatever is THAT"  ..."It`s your predecessor" said I. Don`t think they are ever quite sure how serious I am being!


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## soloabe (25 August 2011)

MurphysMinder said:



			Wow, a lot to catch up on.  Just a couple of things I have noticed in skim reading this thread :
Martlin, the Skinners F & T Maintenance is a lot cheaper than the hypoallergenic varieties, it is £14.99 at my suppliers.  However it does contain contain wheat, maize , barley etc.  I think a lot of people who are quoting Skinners F & T on here are referring to the Duck & Rice, Lamb & Rice etc which is gluten free.
I agree vets aren't nutritionalists, nutrition is only a small part of their learning and as EK I think some breeders of long standing quite probably have as much knowledge.  In my daughters first year at Vet Uni a certain dog food manufacturer gave the students so many freebies it was unbelievable.  I still have a couple of bright red slip leads, a lap top bag and insulated drink holders that she passed on to me.  This imho is done to get certain brand names into the students heads so when they are in practice the same companies can then persuade them to promote their feed.
		
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They flew us to florida


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

Guy I know had the cops called on him, his neighbours saw him butchering a deer in the shed and thought he was cutting up his dog....


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## maisymo96 (25 August 2011)

i was told to take my very hyped up puppy of bakers a few months ago because of the amount of e-numbers. the amount it has calmed her down is amazing!!. i am now very ANTI-BAKERS!!!!


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## galaxy (25 August 2011)

Cavecanem (or anyone else whose is large dogs)....

how much do you think is costs to feed your dog RAW (week or month I don't mind!   )
and what is it you feed for that cost?

Harley weighs 30kgs so how much would he need to be fed?

I don't have much freezer space (3 drawers) so can't buy in bulk.  I really would like to feed RAW, just don't know if logistically I can.


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## soloabe (25 August 2011)

galaxy23 said:



			Cavecanem (or anyone else whose is large dogs)....

how much do you think is costs to feed your dog RAW (week or month I don't mind!   )
and what is it you feed for that cost?

Harley weighs 30kgs so how much would he need to be fed?

I don't have much freezer space (3 drawers) so can't buy in bulk.  I really would like to feed RAW, just don't know if logistically I can.
		
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So he weighs about 6lbs more than Abe.

He needs about 1.4lbs a day.

For me here it costs less but i will go on what my mum feeds.
For her dog in at about 25kg it costs her about  6 pounds a week.
Chicken carcesses, beef tounge, oxtail, organs, intestines and other digestive organs, beef ribs and turkey legs are what she mostly has almost all of it she gets in throw out bags from the butcher near her house but for the last2 months (her sister has been sick) she has split landywoods deliverys with a friend and says she probably spends about 12 pounds a week.


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

I buy a tray of 12 Prize Choice tripe packets a fortnight (£9.50)
Two packs of chicken wings a fortnight (About £4)
Bits and bobs from the bargain bin every fortnight (About £5)
Free bones and offcuts from the butcher.

Bag of Skinners as a training aid, £21, I am still working off a bag I bought in April.


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## galaxy (25 August 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			I buy a tray of 12 Prize Choice tripe packets a fortnight (£9.50)
Two packs of chicken wings a fortnight (About £4)
Bits and bobs from the bargain bin every fortnight (About £5)
Free bones and offcuts from the butcher.

Bag of Skinners as a training aid, £21, I am still working off a bag I bought in April.
		
Click to expand...

For 1 dog?  Or 2?


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

Chicken wings are shared, the rest is for one dog.
Oh and pig's ears! 
I do overlap so that I am never fully out and store stuff up, so that amount of food can last for much longer than a fortnight.

B needs a low protein diet so he gets a £35-37 bag once a month or so.


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## brighteyes (25 August 2011)

Nope, didn't think anyone would have the answer and I see *martlin* was overlooked for her remarks, also


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## soloabe (25 August 2011)

brighteyes said:



			Nope, didn't think anyone would have the answer and I see *martlin* was overlooked for her remarks, also 

Click to expand...

I do feed ethically raised meat because i can.

But here is my question to you. Why is feeding poorly raised meat in dog food ok but not ok if it is raw?


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## soloabe (25 August 2011)

brighteyes said:



			See, I was going to ask this very thing...how can I scour the shelves for ethically produced meat for us (often coming home empty-handed) and happily chuck bags, trays and packs of cheaply-sourced meat and bones from Lord only knows where, for my dog?  

I have looked at free-range chicken thighs and drumsticks but can't bring myself buy them, as where do I go to from there?  

Anyone???
		
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Also contact raw delivery companies many of them offer ethically rasied meat or go direct to the farm.


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

katielou said:



			Why is feeding poorly raised meat in dog food ok but not ok if it is raw?
		
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That was the point I was trying to make.

I did answer, regarding ethics (and that I don't really have any ) and that my motivation is my dogs and their health, not price or chicken rights.

I just Googled 'raw dog food, organic, ethical'.

http://www.darlingsrealdogfood.com/


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## CorvusCorax (25 August 2011)

http://www.naturaldogfoodcompany.com/Our-Ethics.html

http://www.lilyskitchen.co.uk/about-us-i-123.html

http://www.thedogfoodcompany.co.uk


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## Teaselmeg (25 August 2011)

I used to give my dogs Burns dried dog food, they liked it ok, but a friend fed raw and I thought I would give it a try.  The dogs love it and I find it really easy to feed. Used to use Albion meats for my frozen mince, but now I use this company:

http://www.naturalinstinct.com/pages/Our-Ingredients.html

Not the cheapest, but really straight forward and everything is in one container.


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## Ranyhyn (25 August 2011)

Your dogs are gorgeous teaselmeg!


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## Teaselmeg (25 August 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			Your dogs are gorgeous teaselmeg!
		
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You are very kind BoolavogueDC


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## Dobiegirl (25 August 2011)

Teaselmeg said:



			I used to give my dogs Burns dried dog food, they liked it ok, but a friend fed raw and I thought I would give it a try.  The dogs love it and I find it really easy to feed. Used to use Albion meats for my frozen mince, but now I use this company:

http://www.naturalinstinct.com/pages/Our-Ingredients.html

Not the cheapest, but really straight forward and everything is in one container.
		
Click to expand...

I love those dogs, they are all so different, the black one is very much like a dog I had from Battersea Dogs Home who was a wonderful dog.


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## blackcob (25 August 2011)

galaxy23 said:



			how much do you think is costs to feed your dog RAW (week or month I don't mind!   )
and what is it you feed for that cost?
		
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I recently worked mine out at £8 to £10 per week per 24kg dog. 

Stolen from another post: That's including Fish4Dogs kibble (two 15kg bags per year), F4D salmon mousse (purchased when half price, again twice a year), value bags of frozen chicken portions from Sainsburys, chicken wings, chicken carcasses, pork ribs, hearts, liver, lungs, rabbit, pheasant all from the butcher, Prize Choice blocks (mostly tripe as I can't source this anywhere else), dried tripe sticks, pig ears, tinned fish in oil, salmon oil. I get marrowbones for free. 



In answer to the ethical thing... if I could afford it I would buy only organic free range meat for them, but I can't - I can barely afford to for myself, so we eat very little meat and buy the vast majority from the local butcher. In season they eat a lot of rabbit and pheasant, pretty much no food miles there and definitely free range.  Apart from chicken the greater portion of their diet is fish (do F4D use farmed salmon? I have no idea about the impact of that, I admit) and the offal, tripe etc. is a byproduct and would otherwise go to waste or be processed into other animal feeds.


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## Slinkyunicorn (26 August 2011)

I can answer a lot of the questions about ethics and cost in one go

I use the local butchers - they are an independent buitchers that can tell where all their meat is sourced from etc and they are far from the cheapest round here. BUT they bag up their bones, offal, trimmngs, -luck etc for me when I ask. They charge a £1 a carrier bagful - the last cosignment was a fivers worth which will last my 2 - a lab and a spangle about a fortnight.

So is the meat my dogs get ethical? the majority is yes as its the same free range/organoc meat I eat. I do get some fromt he bargain bins - so shoot me

How much does it cost? about a tenner a month


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## martlin (26 August 2011)

Just thought I'll say, or rather C&P from Skinners website:
Q. Do you use only British ingredients?
A. Wherever possible we use locally grown cereals. We use British grass-fed lamb in Lamb & Rice Sensitive, Scottish salmon from a sustainable source in Field & Trial Salmon & Rice and the duck meat meal in Field & Trial Duck & Rice comes from Lincolnshire. Some of the ingredients we use, such as rice, are not grown in the UK and these are obtained from reputable sources in other countries. We have full traceability of all the ingredients we use in our foods

so, that is good enough for me. As I said, I don't care much for organic, what I do care about is supporting British farmers and local businesses  as well as farm animal welfare.


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## soloabe (26 August 2011)

martlin said:



			Just thought I'll say, or rather C&P from Skinners website:
Q. Do you use only British ingredients?
A. Wherever possible we use locally grown cereals. We use British grass-fed lamb in Lamb & Rice Sensitive, Scottish salmon from a sustainable source in Field & Trial Salmon & Rice and the duck meat meal in Field & Trial Duck & Rice comes from Lincolnshire. Some of the ingredients we use, such as rice, are not grown in the UK and these are obtained from reputable sources in other countries. We have full traceability of all the ingredients we use in our foods

so, that is good enough for me. As I said, I don't care much for organic, what I do care about is supporting British farmers and local businesses  as well as farm animal welfare.
		
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Email them and see what answer you get.


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## martlin (26 August 2011)

katielou said:



			Email them and see what answer you get.
		
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erm, about what?


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## soloabe (26 August 2011)

martlin said:



			erm, about what?
		
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Where their meat is from. I got a completely different answer than what is on their website and when i published said email on another site they went a little crazy at me.


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## martlin (26 August 2011)

sorry to hear that you had bother from them 
I'm not quite sure what the point is, though... I mean, the claim is there, on their website, if it is untrue, surely you had nothing to worry about?
The fact remains that they are relatively local, family owned company, though.


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## EAST KENT (26 August 2011)

Duh


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## soloabe (26 August 2011)

My point was if people are really worried about what is in their food and where it comes from don't trust so easily.


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## lexiedhb (26 August 2011)

So skinners blatantly lie on their website then?


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## martlin (26 August 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			So skinners blatantly lie on their website then?
		
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That seems to be the suggestion


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## Hedwards (26 August 2011)

Errr - on Skinners bags of Salmon and Rice - they have a 'sourced from sustainable scottish salmon' or words to that effect on the bags - there is no way they can get away with this unless its true... I doubt very much that one is a lie


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## Gladioli (26 August 2011)

I read the answer being that only the field and trial meat is from Britain, in the other feed it could be from anywhere? 

Is that what their response was KL?

A x


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## Vizslak (26 August 2011)

This is a really interesting thread. Im still waiting to be converted to raw, this thread only backs up my reasons not to feed it  
I totally agree with Martlins view. I wont buy cheap meat from supermarkets for myself and therefore wouldnt for my dogs either. Useful if you have a local butcher to supply you I guess, I dont really. 
Also some of the descriptions of feeding...bleurgh! I have no interest in giving my dogs raw meat to be strewn about my house and regurgitated and eaten all over my carpets! Yuck! 
Thirdly...cost. Raw seems pretty expensive to me. Certainly most of the raw feeders on here are spending more on feeding than I am currently.
My dogs at the moment (and for the last few years) eat Arden Grange in the am. A 15kg sack lasts just over 2 months between 4 dogs at £36 a sack. And frozen tripe in the pm from a local company which I cook in a microwave banished to the shed! A box of tripe is just under £9 and lasts four dogs 2 weeks. So unless my maths is wrong its costing me £9 a week to feed four dogs...under £3 a week per dog...christ I'm way more economical than I thought, thats the first time I have worked that out!


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## lexiedhb (26 August 2011)

Vizslak said:



			This is a really interesting thread. Im still waiting to be converted to raw, this thread only backs up my reasons not to feed it  
I totally agree with Martlins view. I wont buy cheap meat from supermarkets for myself and therefore wouldnt for my dogs either. Useful if you have a local butcher to supply you I guess, I dont really. 
Also some of the descriptions of feeding...bleurgh! I have no interest in giving my dogs raw meat to be strewn about my house and regurgitated and eaten all over my carpets! Yuck! 
Thirdly...cost. Raw seems pretty expensive to me. Certainly most of the raw feeders on here are spending more on feeding than I am currently.
My dogs at the moment (and for the last few years) eat Arden Grange in the am. A 15kg sack lasts just over 2 months between 4 dogs at £36 a sack. And frozen tripe in the pm from a local company which I cook in a microwave banished to the shed! A box of tripe is just under £9 and lasts four dogs 2 weeks. So unless my maths is wrong its costing me £9 a week to feed four dogs...under £3 a week per dog...christ I'm way more economical than I thought, thats the first time I have worked that out!
		
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HOW do you make 15kg last 2 months for 4 dogs? Dex gets through about 2kg a week, + extras, is not over fed, and is a healthy weight.


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## Vizslak (26 August 2011)

Because they only eat it in the am? Its correct I promise, I just opened a new bag last week and marked on the calander the last bag I opened...that was on the 14th June!


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## CorvusCorax (26 August 2011)

Re Skinners, as I have said before, they have always been very helpful and frank any time I have phoned or emailed them.
Admittedly, we were not talking ethics


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## whisp&willow (26 August 2011)

at the moment i am considering changing to feeding 1/2 normal portion of dry plus egg/mackerel in the mornings, and half raw in the evenings and see how we get on.  she has refused to eat a breakfast since she was about 10 months old... so no idea if it will even get off the ground!! 

im over 80 miles away from supermarkets/pet shops... so total dedication to raw is unlikely to work out for me.

no idea whether she will take to it or not,  but going to give it a shot and see how we get on.   the theory being that 1/2 raw and cutting dry by half has to be a good thing!  

what should i be looking for on the bags of dry food re ingredients?  what levels of protein etc?  coming to the end of a sack of food, and will be in the big smoke of inverness this weekend.  want to change dry over to something less... crap, but within reasonable limits-  im not prepared to spend £40 on a 15 kg bag of dog food...


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## mollichop (26 August 2011)

Re the freezer/fridge space, I feed 2 large dogs 100% raw with only one small freezer drawer and one small fridge shelf (I have 2 lodgers and we have a shelf each). 

Most is sourced from local farm shop/butchers and topped up with supermarket bargains. Am planning on getting a chest freezer for the outhouse but it can easily be done without.

It is not time consuming at all, prepping and handling the meat/organs is fine and they do not make a mess of the house as anything that might get taken out of the bowl I feed on the patio.

Agree that it is so satisfying watching them eat this type of food and have converted lots of friends onto BARF as they have been so impressed with the condition, teeth and firm poos of mine!


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## Cinnamontoast (26 August 2011)

whisp&willow said:



			what should i be looking for on the bags of dry food re ingredients?  what levels of protein etc?  coming to the end of a sack of food, and will be in the big smoke of inverness this weekend.  want to change dry over to something less... crap, but within reasonable limits-  im not prepared to spend £40 on a 15 kg bag of dog food...
		
Click to expand...

Maybe look at Skinners or James Wellbeloved. Your first ingredient should be named meat or name meat meal. Avoid large percentages of grain. Remember to switch slowly to avoid tummy upsets.



mollichop said:



			It is not time consuming at all, prepping and handling the meat/organs is fine and they do not make a mess of the house as anything that might get taken out of the bowl I feed on the patio.

Agree that it is so satisfying watching them eat this type of food and have converted lots of friends onto BARF as they have been so impressed with the condition, teeth and firm poos of mine! 

Click to expand...

You can virtually see your face in the dark bits of my dogs' coats. 

I don't understand why people think it's expensive or a faff? My lot had turkey drumsticks for tea (outside). Very simple. 

The poo thing is obvious: when they came from the breeder on commercial crap, they were doing Mr Whippy piles of yukky stuff. Now it's obviously being processed better.


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## whisp&willow (26 August 2011)

thanks cinammon:

i think that it is more that it can feel very daunting to try and get your head around changing to raw-

im sure once you have started it and get to grips with it then i will seen simple!

a bit like teaching someone to drive-  its not scary-  its EASY.... just do it!  (once you are used to it and confident in your ability!!)


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## Cinnamontoast (26 August 2011)

whisp&willow said:



			thanks cinammon:

i think that it is more that it can feel very daunting to try and get your head around changing to raw-

im sure once you have started it and get to grips with it then i will seen simple!

a bit like teaching someone to drive-  its not scary-  its EASY.... just do it!  (once you are used to it and confident in your ability!!)
		
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It does seem like a bit of a mystery at first but if you do the reading and most importantly, source what you want to feed, it's very straightforward. I feel your pain living where you do: it's not easy to get deliveries from raw food companies there, I guess! I had issues too until I was given the name of a company that delivers in my area.


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## whisp&willow (26 August 2011)

ive read alot about it-  but until you start to physicaly do it its still a bit of a mystery!

just each dog being different and all that!  

if i lived somewhere more "civilised!" then i would have gone over to raw to see how betty takes to it ages ago.  as it stands, i think a mixed diet is the only way forward for me to be honest. 

i'd dont have the time to drive 2 hrs each way to pick up meat:  or the space to store enough that would make it economical to do so to feed 100% raw!   not to mention fuel... which is astronomical here...  )

out of interest-  do you feed veg?  or just meat and bones.  x


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## Oberon (26 August 2011)

80% meat (mostly heart and tripe) 10% bone (free from butcher - not weightbearing beef bones though) 5% organ (kidney/gizzards) 5% liver. Also I supplement with salmon oil.

I just scored a big bag of free bones from a butcher I was passing and 1lb chicken gizzards.... Yay!


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## Cinnamontoast (26 August 2011)

Oberon said:



			I just scored a big bag of free bones from a butcher I was passing and 1lb chicken gizzards.... Yay!
		
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how sad that I am seriously jealous! Last time this happened was Christmas when the butcher threw me several stones of turkey bits: I was in heaven. 



whisp&willow said:



			out of interest-  do you feed veg?  or just meat and bones.  x
		
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Just meat and bones, although they get thrown bits of anything we're eating, so bits of Chinese leaf, tomato, cucumber and they love carrots! I can't give one to the horse without the pups demanding one too. It's handy to chop one up for their kongs-calorie light! Frozen ones keep them quiet for a few minutes.


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## Vizslak (26 August 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			Maybe look at Skinners or James Wellbeloved. Your first ingredient should be named meat or name meat meal. Avoid large percentages of grain. Remember to switch slowly to avoid tummy upsets.



You can virtually see your face in the dark bits of my dogs' coats. 

I don't understand why people think it's expensive or a faff? My lot had turkey drumsticks for tea (outside). Very simple. 

The poo thing is obvious: when they came from the breeder on commercial crap, they were doing Mr Whippy piles of yukky stuff. Now it's obviously being processed better. 

Click to expand...

You can see from my post why I think its expensive, and with 4 dogs of all different sizes and needs then it would be a bit of a faff, I dont want to feed outside everyday either its much easier for me to put their bowls down in 'their spaces' in the kitchen at meal times. 2 of my dogs refuse to leave the house when its raining...how do I feed them then?! I dont want to stand in the rain dishing out chicken wings myself particularly either!  My dogs also have very healthy poos and gleaming coats...there is more than one way to skin a cat!


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## CorvusCorax (26 August 2011)

Re chicken wings, they never touch the floor here  gulp, inhale, crunch, gone


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## Vizslak (26 August 2011)

LOL while that would certainly be the case with the big two, terriers dont do things like that! I'm lucky if they eat kibble IN THE BOWL!


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## soloabe (26 August 2011)

Gladioli said:



			I read the answer being that only the field and trial meat is from Britain, in the other feed it could be from anywhere? 

Is that what their response was KL?

A x
		
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There response was not for salmon i have no idea about that one but all of their lamb is not sourced from the UK and that most of their grain is substandard.


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## Cinnamontoast (26 August 2011)

Vizslak said:



			You can see from my post why I think its expensive, and with 4 dogs of all different sizes and needs then it would be a bit of a faff, I dont want to feed outside everyday either its much easier for me to put their bowls down in 'their spaces' in the kitchen at meal times. 2 of my dogs refuse to leave the house when its raining...how do I feed them then?! I dont want to stand in the rain dishing out chicken wings myself particularly either!  My dogs also have very healthy poos and gleaming coats...there is more than one way to skin a cat!
		
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I see your point entirely.  I started with Orijen, easy, measure, feed. I don't think raw is the only way, I just want to do it for my lot.

They don't eat outside often, just if they choose or it's very huge/messy. The pups like their bones in the garden. It's like WW said, easy when you know how.


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## deicinmerlyn (26 August 2011)

I'd love to be able to feed raw but my JR has been so ill after raw poultry.  I have no idea why. The Vet I saw said something along the lines of 'you wouldn't eat raw chicken so why give it to your dog?'!!

He loves raw mince though.  I feed 'fish for dogs'


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## Oberon (26 August 2011)

deicinmerlyn said:



			I'd love to be able to feed raw but my JR has been so ill after raw poultry.  I have no idea why. The Vet I saw said something along the lines of 'you wouldn't eat raw chicken so why give it to your dog?'!!

He loves raw mince though.  I feed 'fish for dogs'
		
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[slaps your vet upside his head with a frozen chicken wing]

Dogs and humans = very different digestive tracts

Dogs that have been fed kibble for a while have to 'train' their stomach acid back to it's natural state, so you have to go VERY slow at first.

Fish4Dogs is supposed to be a good alternative though.


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## Alec Swan (26 August 2011)

If we are to discuss the canine,  and its diet,  then first we need to consider the animal,  itself.

Would we agree,  that with the exception of a few of the toy breeds,  that most breeds of the dogs which we keep today,  will have derived from stock which were servants,  and had to justify their existence?  Would we also agree that these dogs have been bred from animals which were tools,  before they were companions?

The fact is that most breeds of dog,  those which we keep today,  have derived from scavengers,  and that is what they still are.  "The Dog" is an opportunist,  by dietary need.  The diet needs to be varied,  I believe.  If we keep one or perhaps two dogs,  then the ideal kitchen scraps,  used to augment a basic diet would be ideal.  The problem arises,  when we have kennels,  and perhaps three or more dogs.  It becomes so easy for us to feed a "_complete_" _sic_ meal,  and cereal based feeds cannot provide that.  Dogs are not vegetarian,  by choice.  The fact that the manufacturers of these complete feeds will tell us that their feeds "_contain_",  fish,  or chicken,  or kangaroo,  or beef,  means very little.  The percentages of such contents,  will probably be best considered as flavouring.

Protein can be derived from many sources.  For sheep and cattle,  for instance,  the cheap feeds have the protein sourced from urine.  I do wonder where these manufacturers (those who produce our dog feeds)  actually source their cheap proteins.

I work on the basis,  that my dogs receive a base diet of Dr. Johns.  As a supplement,  they receive kitchen scraps,  cooked chicken carcasses,  game carcasses,  lamb chop bones,  beef bones,  the discarded skins from cooked fish,  and just about anything else which is going,  cracked eggs and cheese scraps being amongst them!

If I had more dogs,  than our kitchen waste could provide for,  then I'd fall back on whatever offal I could lay my hands on.  The offal from ruminants,  is the near ideal diet for a dog,  backed up by a supply of cereal based biscuit. 

There is one exception,  I never feed the meat,  or the bones of a pig to my dogs.  That's not because I'm a devout Muslim,  it's because I don't think that it's right. 

These are just my thoughts and I feel sure that others will disagree.

Alec.


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## Cinnamontoast (26 August 2011)

Alec, seriously, _*cooked chicken carcasses*_?! Please tell me no! That's really dangerous! Cooked bones can splinter, are brittle and can cause untold damage (my friend's Doberman died of a related problem). 

Why not pork? Is it because they're so cute? I wouldn't like to meet the pigs our pigs' ears are coming from! Not cute! 

I personally like variety, so I feed every type of raw meat that I can get my hands on.


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## Vizslak (26 August 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			If we are to discuss the canine,  and its diet,  then first we need to consider the animal,  itself.

Would we agree,  that with the exception of a few of the toy breeds,  that most breeds of the dogs which we keep today,  will have derived from stock which were servants,  and had to justify their existence?  Would we also agree that these dogs have been bred from animals which were tools,  before they were companions?

The fact is that most breeds of dog,  those which we keep today,  have derived from scavengers,  and that is what they still are.  "The Dog" is an opportunist,  by dietary need.  The diet needs to be varied,  I believe.  If we keep one or perhaps two dogs,  then the ideal kitchen scraps,  used to augment a basic diet would be ideal.  The problem arises,  when we have kennels,  and perhaps three or more dogs.  It becomes so easy for us to feed a "_complete_" _sic_ meal,  and cereal based feeds cannot provide that.  Dogs are not vegetarian,  by choice.  The fact that the manufacturers of these complete feeds will tell us that their feeds "_contain_",  fish,  or chicken,  or kangaroo,  or beef,  means very little.  The percentages of such contents,  will probably be best considered as flavouring.

Protein can be derived from many sources.  For sheep and cattle,  for instance,  the cheap feeds have the protein sourced from urine.  I do wonder where these manufacturers (those who produce our dog feeds)  actually source their cheap proteins.

I work on the basis,  that my dogs receive a base diet of Dr. Johns.  As a supplement,  they receive kitchen scraps,  cooked chicken carcasses,  game carcasses,  lamb chop bones,  beef bones,  the discarded skins from cooked fish,  and just about anything else which is going,  cracked eggs and cheese scraps being amongst them!

If I had more dogs,  than our kitchen waste could provide for,  then I'd fall back on whatever offal I could lay my hands on.  The offal from ruminants,  is the near ideal diet for a dog,  backed up by a supply of cereal based biscuit. 

There is one exception,  I never feed the meat,  or the bones of a pig to my dogs.  That's not because I'm a devout Muslim,  it's because I don't think that it's right. 

These are just my thoughts and I feel sure that others will disagree.

Alec.
		
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Favourite post of the month  The diet of the majority of working lurchers the length and bredth of the country for years and Ive never seen one look sick or sorry on it! 
I still mantain the pig thing too


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## Vizslak (27 August 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			Alec, seriously, _*cooked chicken carcasses*_?! Please tell me no! That's really dangerous! Cooked bones can splinter, are brittle and can cause untold damage (my friend's Doberman died of a related problem). 

Why not pork? Is it because they're so cute? I wouldn't like to meet the pigs our pigs' ears are coming from! Not cute! 

I personally like variety, so I feed every type of raw meat that I can get my hands on.
		
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I have been reliabley informed that the chicken carcass thing is bullturd...it used to be the case because the chickens eaten were old. Young chickens that are slaughtered at around the 16week mark in our food chain nowadays have soft bones...they dont splinter when cooked.


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## Cinnamontoast (27 August 2011)

Vizslak said:



			I have been reliabley informed that the chicken carcass thing is bullturd...it used to be the case because the chickens eaten were old. Young chickens that are slaughtered at around the 16week mark in our food chain nowadays have soft bones...they dont splinter when cooked.
		
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Not wishing to cause controversy, but how can anyone be guaranteed of that? I bought a trio of chickens today from Tesco and the OH butchered them. He whinged that they were old as the meat was fibrous. He used to work in Sun Valley so he sort of knows his stuff. 

After my friend's experience of losing her dobie last year, I really would not take that kind of risk.


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## Vizslak (27 August 2011)

you can tell if the bones are splintering before you feed to a dog though? To be fair, if the chicken is old or even cooked to long then yea very dangerous. But you can tell that before you feed. I have fed chicken carcass to my dogs before, not often but I have.


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## Vizslak (27 August 2011)

I forgot to mention if the carcass is dry and splintery you can boil it down and soften the bones that way (and always remove those horrid little thin bones on the legs, whatever they are called.) Its all risks with everything though isnt it, yea your dog could choke on a chicken bone, it could choke on lots of things though, it could also get salmonella from a raw chicken bone......
 I'm just on the wind up tonight


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## Dobiegirl (27 August 2011)

I think the modern broiler bird which has to finish in a short time is beggered with breaking its legs .This is due to the sudden growth spurt and the bones being so soft it cannot support itself.


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## Alec Swan (27 August 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			Alec, seriously, _*cooked chicken carcasses*_?! Please tell me no! That's really dangerous!.......
		
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I'm now 65 years old,  and certainly for the last 40 years,  I can't remember one chicken carcass which has gone into the bin!  I'd guess that there would have been several thousand,  and I've never had a mishap of any sort.  I know of others who also feed,  as I do,  without any ill effect.  I honestly believe that the fear over cooked chicken carcasses,  to be an old wives tale.

Regarding pork,  I realise that poultry and game are also omnivorous,  but I don't feel comfortable feeding one, _in part,_ meat eating creature to another!  I realise that there's little logic to it,  but I just don't do it!  

Do you remember the BSE scare?  Well at the time the feed companies were sourcing protein from cattle remains,  and putting it back in to cattle feed.  Now I realise that cattle are true vegetarians,  but protein can be added from the most questionable sources,  and all so often is.  If it bothers us,  then it pays to check,  I suppose.

Alec.


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## Oberon (27 August 2011)

I'm guilty of feeding cooked chicken carcass....my reasoning is that he'd only steal it from the bin anyway;p


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## deicinmerlyn (27 August 2011)

I agree with Alec in a way.  I mean we're told not to feed scraps and it's not good for them but as a child all our dogs were fed scraps and none of them ever needed to go the Vet, they all lived to a ripe old age too.

I admit to feeding mine left overs when there is any!, we don't eat rubbish nor does he.


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## Alec Swan (27 August 2011)

deicinmerlyn said:



			......I mean we're told not to feed scraps and it's not good for them .....
		
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Really?  Says who?  Would it be those who manufacture and or sell packaged dog feed? 

I don't know about others,  but my dogs seem to take a delight in eating putrefying meat,  and all sorts of disgusting things,  especially puppies,  the filthy little toads!  It never seems to do them any harm,  except when I scold them!!

Alec.


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## EAST KENT (27 August 2011)

Alec ,feeding a cooked chook carcase would really worry me;however,I can remember the family mongrel in the fifties and sixties crunching up cooked remains of every Sunday lunch..and he lived to fifteen.
    What with the the chook carcases (RAW) and the butchers leftovers and bones my dogs probably get more of a fifty/fifty ratio in their overall fed. Cannot abide that Dr John`s ,would never feed that.However the Ashford Valley pack is fed on it..and they`re fast and look well. Maybe they have exceptional constitutions!!


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## Kaylum (27 August 2011)

Do we over think nowadays.  Mums rescue JR was about a year old when we found her and she had her for 17 years and fed her tinned dog food.   

My friend's collie x died at age 18 and she also fed her tinned dog food.  

Both of them were healthy dogs obviously as they got older they slowed down a lot but it speaks volumes as to how they hadnt suffered illnesses due to their diet.  

Obviously not much nutritional information was around 15 years + ago so they thought they were feeding what was the correct diet for a dog.

Also the breeding and how these older dogs were crosses (JR and collie x) must count for a lot.


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## PucciNPoni (27 August 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Cannot abide that Dr John`s ,would never feed that.However the Ashford Valley pack is fed on it..and they`re fast and look well. Maybe they have exceptional constitutions!!

Click to expand...

Why not?  I've never heard of it before - did a google search to read about it.  It sounds like it's a reputable food - so what's horrible about it?  JUst curious really.


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## Cinnamontoast (27 August 2011)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/1061362509-post81.html

Result! Am I famous?!


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## Alec Swan (27 August 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			.......Result! Am I famous?!

Click to expand...

Certainly you are!!  However,  knowing how quickly a thread disappears,  on here,  and considering Andy Warhols thoughts,  it may only be for 15 minutes! 

You've posed some interesting questions,  which have prompted some equally interesting responses.  We haven't all agreed with each other,  on every point,  but we've been civil!

The pet food industry is massive,  that we know,  and for me the interesting point which you've raised,  is that we really should be aware of those _additives, _which are added.  

Well done,  a useful thread,  but do bear in mind that Bakers aren't alone.  

Alec.


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## sonjafoers (27 August 2011)

I haven't read all this but I have a big big vote for Prize Choice 

I tried to go raw 'properly' but it didn't really work for me. One of mine gets a very rumbly grumbly tummy if she has bones, and it really bothers her. Once she gets it she won't eat for a few days, she also won't eat offal or white fish. None of mine will eat veg in any shape or form!!!

I gave up after a while and ordered the posh things from Prize Choice, can't think what it's called now but it's their meat with added veg, vitamins etc. 2 of mine wouldn't touch it and the one that did often had a bad tummy which I can only blame on the veg.

As a last resort I tried Prize Choice meat only which my supplier calls the economy range! Because I have big dogs I buy the blocks rather than the mince and after hit & miss with a few flavours I've now found 3 flavours they all like so I stick with them.

It's really easy to do, I just defrost 3 blocks after every meal & it's ready for the next. A few meals a week they get fish, whether it's white fish from Prize Choice or tins of sardines, pilchards, salmon. Also a few times a week I add Prize Choice poultry necks for 2 of them.

They look great, no more upset tummies, better pooh and they eat it all


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## Cinnamontoast (27 August 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Certainly you are!!  However,  knowing how quickly a thread disappears,  on here,  and considering Andy Warhols thoughts,  it may only be for 15 minutes! 

Well done,  a useful thread,  but do bear in mind that Bakers aren't alone.  

Alec.
		
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Boo, it won't be stickied because I used a specific brand . I wanted to bring up this brand because of their huge ad campaign and the amount of people I see buying it. I think I mentioned here or on the other thread that any commercial food from a supermarket should be avoided. It's appalling how many of the foods are made by the same companies.


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## EAST KENT (27 August 2011)

PucciNPoni said:



			Why not?  I've never heard of it before - did a google search to read about it.  It sounds like it's a reputable food - so what's horrible about it?  JUst curious really.  

Click to expand...

 Well,put it this way,they are hardly going to put on the sack/sales promotion   "this is crap dog food" are they?  Just don`t be gullible and believe everything you read.


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## EAST KENT (27 August 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			I think the modern broiler bird which has to finish in a short time is beggered with breaking its legs .This is due to the sudden growth spurt and the bones being so soft it cannot support itself.
		
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 Is`nt it 4lbs weight by six/seven WEEKS now?? Incredible what modern breeding has achieved as far as satisfying the need for cheap food goes.


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## CorvusCorax (27 August 2011)

Re 'we always fed our dogs x, y, and z and they lived long healthy lives'....

In the first few generations, I am sure certain foods went down just fine.
However the rates of allergies, UTIs, diabetes, stomach problems, anal problems and the number of dogs dying from bloat and torsion, particularly in my own breed, fit, young competition dogs, is soaring.
Dogs are carnivores - they should not get diabetes...their food should not contain anything which might give them diabetes.

Back in the day we fed something called Favour which I would not touch with a barge pole now, looks like horse feed with no recogniseable meat content. But our dog lived to 14 on it.
We also fed Winalot, which when you were my mother, after years of cutting and mincing raw green tripe, must have felt like a godsend.

But look at lots of food for human consumption - commodity prices go up, the main bulk of the ingredients becomes more and more filler and I believe that is happening with dog food as well. Meat content a few decades ago I am sure is not the same now.
Also the ban on bonemeal did not help.

I do believe that the accumulative feeding of *certain* foods over generations does have something to do with the unprecedented amount of allergies we are seeing in dogs.
We've kept GSDs for decades and had never heard of an allergy, until B came along and they seem to now be rife in many breeds.

Just some musings!


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## EAST KENT (27 August 2011)

Oh don`t forget Cobbydog CC, in which I found a lamb elastrator band! Best lamb meat ,my eye!


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## PucciNPoni (27 August 2011)

EAST KENT said:



 Well,put it this way,they are hardly going to put on the sack/sales promotion   "this is crap dog food" are they?  Just don`t be gullible and believe everything you read.

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LOL, quite right!  No, I'm just wondering what's in it that's so horrible?


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## paisley (27 August 2011)

Today I went to Pets at Home for another toy (ball-onna-rope, lasted about 1 minute, before I managed to throw it into a fecking tree!), and somehow persuaded a man clutching a box of Bakers to put it back and get some Prize Choice frozen blocks instead. Really didnt mean to but - do I get brownie points?


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## MurphysMinder (27 August 2011)

paisley said:



			Today I went to Pets at Home for another toy (ball-onna-rope, lasted about 1 minute, before I managed to throw it into a fecking tree!), and somehow persuaded a man clutching a box of Bakers to put it back and get some Prize Choice frozen blocks instead. Really didnt mean to but - do I get brownie points?  

Click to expand...

Gold star I would have thought, well done!


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## Dobiegirl (27 August 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Is`nt it 4lbs weight by six/seven WEEKS now?? Incredible what modern breeding has achieved as far as satisfying the need for cheap food goes.
		
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Yes thats what I heard and free range use the same breed of bird but they take longer to finish. Makes a mockery of the whole welfare thing really.

All the people that feed raw do you fast your dogs one day a week? when I worked for a hunt hounds always had a fast day on Sunday. They are also doing this in zoos fasting their carnivores. The logic I presume is no wild animal could catch prey 7days a week.


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## Oberon (27 August 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			Yes thats what I heard and free range use the same breed of bird but they take longer to finish. Makes a mockery of the whole welfare thing really.

All the people that feed raw do you fast your dogs one day a week? when I worked for a hunt hounds always had a fast day on Sunday. They are also doing this in zoos fasting their carnivores. The logic I presume is no wild animal could catch prey 7days a week.
		
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I've heard that theory and thought about it - but I'm not keen on having my face eaten off while I'm asleep....


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## Toffee44 (27 August 2011)

Oberon said:



			I've heard that theory and thought about it - but I'm not keen on having my face eaten off while I'm asleep....
		
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Lol Mine will have a pig out day (literally normally mid week or a saturday depending when im off)and no walkies day (mainly have a day of eating pig head, offal and trotters) they spend pretty much all day eating.


The next day they have a token feed of a few chunks or tripe and then a nice couple hour walkies.


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## CorvusCorax (27 August 2011)

paisley said:



			Today I went to Pets at Home for another toy (ball-onna-rope, lasted about 1 minute, before I managed to throw it into a fecking tree!), and somehow persuaded a man clutching a box of Bakers to put it back and get some Prize Choice frozen blocks instead. Really didnt mean to but - do I get brownie points?  

Click to expand...

Well done 

Would you believe I have actually shinnied up a tree to retrieve an ill-thrown ball before now just to shut up the whiny whiner sitting at the bottom of the tree, looking up forlornly and refusing to move....

The boys at club wet themselves laughing at me, I throw the balls right on out of the field over the fence


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## Toffee44 (27 August 2011)

Does anyone else end up talking REALLY LOUDLY when you see people looking at bakers??


I do, OH just shys away now. 

I do wonder if this food will ever come off our shelves.


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## CorvusCorax (27 August 2011)

Oh right, so rugby tackling them and yelling 'nnoooooooooooooo!' is a bit much then?


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## Toffee44 (27 August 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Oh right, so rugby tackling them and yelling 'nnoooooooooooooo!' is a bit much then?

 

Click to expand...

Well when I got asked "did you find everything you needed today?" by the tills assistant I said no you don't sell decent dog food!! She started on about Hills, I just told her I would not feed my dog that over rated expensive crap, and that if a owner ever truely checked the ingredients they would be suprised at how little meat and nutrician (im tipsy and cant spell right now) was in it for the price at that is a marketing con no worse than the utter crap that is Bakers  (Cue bloke behind me dump his bag   )


OH at this point abandoned me and waited in the car, I only went in for Teals fav Kong Balls and some guinea pig food about all that is of anyuse at P@H I have gone off wainwrights now I have found skinners although even that makes the dogs teeth yellow, roll on winter when I can be fly free and just be on raw constantly.


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## Cinnamontoast (27 August 2011)

paisley said:



			Today I went to Pets at Home for another toy (ball-onna-rope, lasted about 1 minute, before I managed to throw it into a fecking tree!), and somehow persuaded a man clutching a box of Bakers to put it back and get some Prize Choice frozen blocks instead. Really didnt mean to but - do I get brownie points?  

Click to expand...

Major points! Didyou tell him why it was bad?



Dobiegirl said:



			All the people that feed raw do you fast your dogs one day a week? when I worked for a hunt hounds always had a fast day on Sunday. They are also doing this in zoos fasting their carnivores. The logic I presume is no wild animal could catch prey 7days a week.
		
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Lord, I'd be overwhelmed with whining sad things!



Oberon said:



			I've heard that theory and thought about it - but I'm not keen on having my face eaten off while I'm asleep....
		
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PMSL!



Toffee44 said:



			Does anyone else end up talking REALLY LOUDLY when you see people looking at bakers??
I do, OH just shys away now. 

I do wonder if this food will ever come off our shelves.
		
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I do, OH walks away 

I sincerely hope it does, we just need to spread the word. Someone suggested putting post its on all the bags in Asda!



CaveCanem said:



			Oh right, so rugby tackling them and yelling 'nnoooooooooooooo!' is a bit much then?

 

Click to expand...

Possibly!  But, hey, whatever works!


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## CorvusCorax (27 August 2011)

What about some tee shirts?

The Ban Bakers Bitches


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## Toffee44 (27 August 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			I sincerely hope it does, we just need to spread the word. Someone suggested putting post its on all the bags in Asda!



!
		
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OMG I said this to OH while in sainsburys, he said he would dump me if I did that though  where is the love! ! So glad its not just me with these thoughts, I suppose im soooooo angry with myself that I was soooo  naive as to what was in dog food and that Dylan started life on Bakers Puppy and then 2 weeks with me.


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## paisley (27 August 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			Major points! Didyou tell him why it was bad?


Hooray, points for me! I think I may have mentioned potentially carcinogenic ingredients and it probably helped that I had the whippity lurcher looking perky and healthy, so he asked what I fed him on.

CaveCanem, it was one bleddy big tree, for a £2 ball-onna-rope I 'll let it go  He's just as happy with his lead knotted up and thown- this is the cheapy cheap dog!
		
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## Cinnamontoast (27 August 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			What about some tee shirts?

The Ban Bakers Bitches 

Click to expand...

Oh yay!



Toffee44 said:



			OMG I said this to OH while in sainsburys, he said he would dump me if I did that though  where is the love! !
		
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Where, indeed?! Mine just walks away now! I am shamed. 

Paisley, I'm loving the 'potentially carcinogenic' phrase. Now where have I seen that before?! Stunning!


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## Pix (27 August 2011)

paisley said:



			(ball-onna-rope, lasted about 1 minute, before I managed to throw it into a fecking tree!)
		
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Glad to know I'm not the only one that regularly loses those things to trees (last time I was so good at aiming badly I'd have needed a crane to rescue it from the branch I wrapped it around ).

I don't feed raw (for reasons I can't be bothered to justify ) just Arden Grange, topped up with any meat/gravy/fish etc. from the table, and the odd tin of tuna or salmon etc.

Loki did steal most of a beef joint from the kitchen today though. He thoroughly enjoyed it and, as it wasn't my joint, essentially had a free dinner. Win!


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## soloabe (27 August 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			Yes thats what I heard and free range use the same breed of bird but they take longer to finish. Makes a mockery of the whole welfare thing really.

All the people that feed raw do you fast your dogs one day a week? when I worked for a hunt hounds always had a fast day on Sunday. They are also doing this in zoos fasting their carnivores. The logic I presume is no wild animal could catch prey 7days a week.
		
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We fast 1-2 days a week. Just because they seem to do better that way. More of the food we give is digested and even smaller poops!


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## soloabe (27 August 2011)

Kaylum said:



			Also the breeding and how these older dogs were crosses (JR and collie x) must count for a lot.
		
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I doubt it.


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## EAST KENT (28 August 2011)

Oh I dunno,it`s pretty hard to kill off a mongrel with poor food, they are extrewmely tough.


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## Toffee44 (28 August 2011)

I have just cross posted the original post from here on a guinea pig forum (In the Other Pets sections) I have had quite a few replies already with people with dogs with allergies and rashes etc. Funnily enough its bakers or wagg.......and they were very very shocked.



RESULT


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## Vizslak (28 August 2011)

Oooo this threads still alive!  
Good work people! I have to say I am also guilty of bashing any random person I see in a shop with a box/sack of bakers in hand! We need t shirts!


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## Stinkbomb (28 August 2011)

Great thread!!
Ive fed raw for the last 3 years and my dog loves it. I order my frozen food from Durham Animal Feeds and they are great!!! I can highly recommend them. Im fortunate to have a chest freezer and can order 3 months at a time. The meat comes in 450kg blocks which is a great size as mine has 2 a day!! I prefer them to prize choice and they seem cheaper too.

I also get whole chickens reduced at the supermarket for his bones. I have to be careful with smaller animals though as he doesnt chew properly!!!


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## Cinnamontoast (28 August 2011)

Toffee44 said:



			I have just cross posted the original post from here on a guinea pig forum (In the Other Pets sections) I have had quite a few replies already with people with dogs with allergies and rashes etc. Funnily enough its bakers or wagg.......and they were very very shocked.

RESULT  

Click to expand...

Wow, fantastic! I kept another anti-Bakers thread going on pet forums.co.uk, big dog forum. Fab stuff!



Vizslak said:



			Oooo this threads still alive!  
Good work people! I have to say I am also guilty of bashing any random person I see in a shop with a box/sack of bakers in hand! We need t shirts!  

Click to expand...

Cor, dare we? Won't we be horribly sued?


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## EAST KENT (29 August 2011)

Now you lot..you`re all behaving very badly


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## Vizslak (29 August 2011)

Hmmm could we not be sued anyway for talking about it on here? Technically?!


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## SusieT (29 August 2011)

'I do believe that the accumulative feeding of *certain* foods over generations does have something to do with the unprecedented amount of allergies we are seeing in dogs.'
I am interested in the theory behind this-to me I cannot put this into any scientific context, normally an animal becomes more used to eating a certain diet and adapts well.
And regarding increase in disease, there is also many different ways of keeping dogs (in houses with carpets/dust rather than in kennels with limited  exposure to various allergens), more badly bred dogs, more tests available and awareness of diseases so more diseases diagnosed. (A bit like mental health in humans). 
If a food is universally bad for animals, then it will not pick and choose the animals it affects, if your dog is healthy, shiney coat, good weight, suitable energy levels, producing good bowel motions then generally what you are feeding will not be causing harm, because those are all signs of good health. If your dog is ill/thin/poor skin then that food does not agree with him. That does nto mean that that food is a poor food or will disagree with all dogs.
That is my view on it certainly.


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## SusieT (29 August 2011)

for those whos hop at the bargain end of asda/tesco for your meat as well-that's a whole other issue of encouraging poor welfare practices that often produce that meat, caged chickens, broilers who can't support their own weight, certainly not meat you want to be supporting by buying in bulk.


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## paisley (29 August 2011)

SusieT said:



			'I do believe that the accumulative feeding of *certain* foods over generations does have something to do with the unprecedented amount of allergies we are seeing in dogs.'
I am interested in the theory behind this-to me I cannot put this into any scientific context, normally an animal becomes more used to eating a certain diet and adapts well.

Allergy can be one of the tough ones to really pinpoint. Genetic disposition in the offspring of affected parents is becoming increasingly evident, but the candidate genes for allergy quite often vary from each type. And certainly in human asthma, there are multiple phenotypes, its not just limited to a straight Th1/1 imbalance from an environmental reaction. But with any chronic disease, persistent inflammation is one of the underlying factors. And certainly from the list of additives in some foods, these seem capable of triggering a degree of inflammation or altering cellular efficiency. If you then breed from an asymptomatic but allergen-primed animal, then they may well pass on the genetic potential and there you go- itchy and wheezy dogs! But its just a theory 

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## Dobiegirl (29 August 2011)

SusieT said:



			for those whos hop at the bargain end of asda/tesco for your meat as well-that's a whole other issue of encouraging poor welfare practices that often produce that meat, caged chickens, broilers who can't support their own weight, certainly not meat you want to be supporting by buying in bulk.
		
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Whilst I agree with that statement it dosnt mean those of us that feed dry albeit decent kibble can feel smug because I dont think the meat in them is free range either.

Brands that use fish whether raw or kibble is a little better but farmed salmon is known for high stocking density with the resultant increase in parasites and the chemicals used to treat them.


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## SusieT (29 August 2011)

Not remotely-but there is no option to buy free range dry food that I'm aware of, there is the option in supermarkets


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## Cinnamontoast (29 August 2011)

The high incidence of allergens such as grain contained in commercial foods may lead to reactive dogs. Dogs have developed from almost pure carnivores to scavenger/omnivores. Some reactions are, according to my doctor, cumulative, so now the OH can no longer eat grain (but that's ok, cos I stopped feeding him commercial crap!)

Vizslak, it's an _opinion_!


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## SusieT (29 August 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			The high incidence of allergens such as grain contained in commercial foods may lead to reactive dogs. Dogs have developed from almost pure carnivores to scavenger/omnivores. Some reactions are, according to my doctor, cumulative, so now the OH can no longer eat grain
		
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Yes, but whilst your children may be equally susceptible to such build ups they will not have become any more susceptible by any sort of genetic magic, if your OH was a stud dog I would not use him as he was prone to allergies.


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## Cinnamontoast (29 August 2011)

SusieT said:



			if your OH was a stud dog I would not use him as he was prone to allergies.
		
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PMSL! SusieT, I like you! You are a straight talking, absolutely no bull type of gal. The OH says he's forgotten how, anyway. Ruddy cheek!


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## CorvusCorax (29 August 2011)

SusieT said:



			'I do believe that the accumulative feeding of *certain* foods over generations does have something to do with the unprecedented amount of allergies we are seeing in dogs.'
I am interested in the theory behind this-to me I cannot put this into any scientific context, normally an animal becomes more used to eating a certain diet and adapts well.
And regarding increase in disease, there is also many different ways of keeping dogs (in houses with carpets/dust rather than in kennels with limited  exposure to various allergens), more badly bred dogs, more tests available and awareness of diseases so more diseases diagnosed. (A bit like mental health in humans). 
If a food is universally bad for animals, then it will not pick and choose the animals it affects, if your dog is healthy, shiney coat, good weight, suitable energy levels, producing good bowel motions then generally what you are feeding will not be causing harm, because those are all signs of good health. If your dog is ill/thin/poor skin then that food does not agree with him. That does nto mean that that food is a poor food or will disagree with all dogs.
That is my view on it certainly.
		
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No science at all, I said 'I believe' and is to do with my own experience, I did not say 'it's proven' or 'it's a fact' 
But it's sparked a nice off-shoot debate!

I do also agree with the breeding thing. I NOW know (took me long enough..) that my dog is linebred on two males known to produce ear issues (another debate for another day but that's a good reason to have a five-gen pedigree with all health records - at least I can look at that and say, no Yasko, no Ursus, ever again!)
None of the other dogs in the litter were affected. 
Mine does not have the capacity to breed any more  and I doubt any of the others will either.


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## SusieT (29 August 2011)

Fair enough!


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## dingle12 (29 August 2011)

Can i just ask one question? i feed dr johns to mine and always have they do very well on it and i wont change however i would like to feed kidney or some sort of raw to them is there anything i should not give them raw was thinking of giving them something a few times a week. Also do i have to feed different times to there dr johns or can  i just add abit of liver and kidney to it? they get 2 meals a day.

Think for a treat tom i will go get them a few bones


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## Cinnamontoast (29 August 2011)

Chicken wings are, IMO, the perfect bone. Dogs love them, but do hold them til they get the idea about needing to chew! Don't give lots as it may upset their digestion.

Lay off the liver if you don't feed raw! Maybe make liver cake (google any recipe). It gives dogs the runs in a major fashion if given raw. Even liver cake can do this so go easy.

Don't feed kibble and raw food together, it's a big no no because of the different digestion rates. Kidney should be ok. Morrisons do pig kidney and liver on the shelves by the butcher counter and lamb bones.


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## dingle12 (30 August 2011)

thank you will lay off the liver, trouble is i have a lab x that eats anything so fast i have to try and slow him down eating his meals  so i was thinking off asking my butcher for some larger dog bones ive known them give big bags away for free.

i dont want him to choke i have to put another bowl in his food bowl to try and slow him down does anyone have any other tips on slowing him down?


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## Oberon (30 August 2011)

dingle12 said:



			Can i just ask one question? i feed dr johns to mine and always have they do very well on it and i wont change however i would like to feed kidney or some sort of raw to them is there anything i should not give them raw was thinking of giving them something a few times a week. Also do i have to feed different times to there dr johns or can  i just add abit of liver and kidney to it? they get 2 meals a day.

Think for a treat tom i will go get them a few bones 

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I'm not an expert but I believe kibble and raw shouldn't be fed at the same time as they digest as different rates and it could cause obstruction.

As for feeding kidney and liver - I know that I've had to feed Raw for 2 months to get to the point where my dogs are ready for kidney and liver. 
I believe the stomach acid has to be given time to revert from 'kibble dissolving' to 'wolfie bone dissolving'
If fed the rich stuff (organs and liver) too early on, there are consequences of the loose variety


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## Oberon (30 August 2011)

dingle12 said:



			thank you will lay off the liver, trouble is i have a lab x that eats anything so fast i have to try and slow him down eating his meals  so i was thinking off asking my butcher for some larger dog bones ive known them give big bags away for free.

i dont want him to choke i have to put another bowl in his food bowl to try and slow him down does anyone have any other tips on slowing him down?
		
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Feed Raw and watch him try to gobble an ox heart - no chance Salem used to inhale kibble - but now he has to lie down and work on his food.

Have you tried adding water to the kibble?

Be very specific with the butcher if you want bones from them. They seem to think anything other than the traditional beef bones are no good. The opposite is true - weight bearing beef bones are too dense and can break teeth. 

In the first week I found shards of bone in their poop - now their stomach acid is switched onto Raw, they digest and dissolve all the bone and none is passed.

I'm not sure if your dog would be able to digest bone safely if they're just recreational?


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## dingle12 (30 August 2011)

Thanks for that yes ive added water to his food that makes him eat it even faster, he is such a pig thats why i put another bowl in his bowl to try and slow him down if i fed tin meat it goes in one big gulp 

Are bones from the butcher no good as a treat then? we used to always give our older dogs them every so often however ive not given by current dogs them before.


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## EAST KENT (30 August 2011)

Well I sincerely hope none of you lot are anywhere near Lidls in Ashford toz.....cos we are getting six sacks of their Orange whatsits dog "food" to sprinkle on their meat..tatty old estate,bull terrier head on bonnet..owner potty (but dangerous) with bottle red hair..see yer!


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## Toffee44 (30 August 2011)

I find that chicken wings and big dogs dont mix. 

My lot (labradors x2 and a rottweiler x large breed) get turkey wings or chicken legs they cant swollow them whole. 

They also no longer get chicken necks just turkey necks.


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## Cinnamontoast (30 August 2011)

To stop gobbling, hold bones so he has to chew properly. A turkey drumstick would be good. My springers can get through them so your lab should be ok. I'd just be wary of offering raw food when he's mainly kibble fed. Raw takes a while to get used to so the dog may not digest it brilliantly. For me, it's all or nothing now I've got them used to it properly.


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## welshtyke (29 October 2011)

HA HA !!! good old Bakers, more E numbers than you can shake a stick at.  We have two Bassets from rescue and were warned off Bakers by the lady at Basset Hound Welfare.  Ours get Burgess Sensitive and are doing quite nicely.


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