# Many Clouds has collapsed and died ..



## Alec Swan (28 January 2017)

. and as he finished.  A horribly black day.  

I've no real wish to watch any more racing this afternoon.  

Hearts will be broken,  but they'll mend of course.

Alec.


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## KautoStar1 (28 January 2017)

Gutted


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## Fools Motto (28 January 2017)

One of the true grits of equine racehorse. What a legend. He will be very very missed by so many people - including me.


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## minesadouble (28 January 2017)

So so sad. A special horse who literally gave everything he had.


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## Velcrobum (28 January 2017)

Oh dear I am glad I was not watching. This going to create a massive backlash from the anti racing fraternity and it is huge pity that he was not retired after the National when I really thought he was going to go down.


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## skint1 (28 January 2017)

RIP to a great horse, thoughts are with his people


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## popsdosh (28 January 2017)

Velcrobum said:



			Oh dear I am glad I was not watching. This going to create a massive backlash from the anti racing fraternity and it is huge pity that he was not retired after the National when I really thought he was going to go down.
		
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Who needs 'the anti racing fraternity' when we have you!!


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## HanniRT (28 January 2017)

RIP beautiful boy. Just so very sad.


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## AdorableAlice (28 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Who needs 'the anti racing fraternity' when we have you!!

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That is unfair.
I have commented on another thread that the horse has a known problem and perhaps after such an heroic national win it may have been wise to call it a day.

There is a limited number of trips to the well for any horse no matter how talented or brave.  There is no doubt that the horse would have had the very best veterinary care throughout his time in training but he was known to have a potentially life ending health issue that occurred more than once after maximum exertion.  The horse has done his connections proud with many wins, £800,000 in prize money and the ultimate in the National.  Did he need to die today, in my view and I am not concerned to admit it, no I don't think he did.  It is a pity for him, his connections and for racing.


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## Cortez (28 January 2017)

I am not remotely anti racing, but I am anti galloping horses to death, even more especially when he had a known problem. Bad judgement, bad horsemanship. Just bad.


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## scotlass (28 January 2017)

Just heard about Many Clouds.  Such a lovely horse, who gave his all and a lot of joy to his connections.  Condolences to the Sherwoods, Trevor Hemmings, Leighton Aspell and all the lads / lasses who looked after him.


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## Alec Swan (28 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. I have commented on another thread that the horse has a known problem and perhaps after such an heroic national win it may have been wise to call it a day.
&#8230;&#8230;...
		
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Whilst a horse is capable of putting up such a gutsy performance,  then they continue with their career.  MC did have an historic problem and it's only with that most useless of human thoughts,  hindsight,  that we can say "If only".

There should be no recriminations,  personal or otherwise.  The horse lived and died doing what he loved and difficult though it may be,  perhaps we should rejoice in that he was spared a career doing dressage or any other headline grabbing embarrassment.

Alec.


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## Tiddlypom (28 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Who needs 'the anti racing fraternity' when we have you!!

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Continuing to race a horse who had previously had very public post race health issues was always going to be controversal. Probably only die hard racing fanatics will have thought it was a good idea to keep him in training.

Very sad, and yes, of course, the 'anti racing fraternity' will have a field day.

ETA just realised that the term 'die hard' was perhaps inappropriate in the circumstances, but it sums up what happened to poor MC


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## Velcrobum (28 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			I am not remotely anti racing, but I am anti galloping horses to death, even more especially when he had a known problem. Bad judgement, bad horsemanship. Just bad.
		
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I entirely agree.


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## Goldenstar (28 January 2017)

Gone in a moment in health with a life of the best care doing what he was bred for .
I have no opinions on the ins and outs of this horse but many many TBs suffer worse fates .


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## ycbm (28 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			That is unfair.
I have commented on another thread that the horse has a known problem and perhaps after such an heroic national win it may have been wise to call it a day.

There is a limited number of trips to the well for any horse no matter how talented or brave.  There is no doubt that the horse would have had the very best veterinary care throughout his time in training but he was known to have a potentially life ending health issue that occurred more than once after maximum exertion.  The horse has done his connections proud with many wins, £800,000 in prize money and the ultimate in the National.  Did he need to die today, in my view and I am not concerned to admit it, no I don't think he did.  It is a pity for him, his connections and for racing.
		
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Cortez said:



			I am not remotely anti racing, but I am anti galloping horses to death, even more especially when he had a known problem. Bad judgement, bad horsemanship. Just bad.
		
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I'm with you both.






Alec Swan said:



			There should be no recriminations,  personal or otherwise. 
Alec.
		
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But not with this. This result was foreseeable. If the horse had been a boxer or a footballer he would not have been allowed to compete with his history. I feel the connections have brought shame on NH racing and I'm shocked the industry did not prevent the horse from racing again, given his known issues.


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## Velcrobum (28 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Who needs 'the anti racing fraternity' when we have you!!

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Not sure what was so controversial in my post to elicit that reply.


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## millhouse (28 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			I am not remotely anti racing, but I am anti galloping horses to death, even more especially when he had a known problem. Bad judgement, bad horsemanship. Just bad.
		
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This definitely doesn't bode well


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 January 2017)

I am absolutely heartbroken for the whole team at Oli Sherwood's yard. Many Clouds went out doing what he did best - galloping his rivals into submission. Today he took down one of the most enigmatic chasers we have seen in recent recent years. He deserved his win today but not the ultimate price. 

As to his public health problems - Many Clouds had completed and won a lot of races with no ill effects. This did not happen to him every time he raced. The BHA do keep an eye on things and do indeed speak to trainers if they think there is a health risk to the horse or those around him. They would not allow a horse to run that they did not think it capable. 

RIP Many Clouds there are still plenty of races with your name on them where you are now x


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## HanniRT (28 January 2017)

EKW said:



			I am absolutely heartbroken for the whole team at Oli Sherwood's yard. Many Clouds went out doing what he did best - galloping his rivals into submission. Today he took down one of the most enigmatic chasers we have seen in recent recent years. He deserved his win today but not the ultimate price. 

As to his public health problems - Many Clouds had completed and won a lot of races with no ill effects. This did not happen to him every time he raced. The BHA do keep an eye on things and do indeed speak to trainers if they think there is a health risk to the horse or those around him. They would not allow a horse to run that they did not think it capable. 

RIP Many Clouds there are still plenty of races with your name on them where you are now x
		
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Completely agree with this and with Goldenstar. I will raise a glass to him tonight and to all those who looked after him.


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## AdorableAlice (28 January 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Whilst a horse is capable of putting up such a gutsy performance,  then they continue with their career.  MC did have an historic problem and it's only with that most useless of human thoughts,  hindsight,  that we can say "If only".

There should be no recriminations,  personal or otherwise.  The horse lived and died doing what he loved and difficult though it may be,  perhaps we should rejoice in that he was spared a career doing dressage or any other headline grabbing embarrassment.

Alec.
		
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 Trevor Hemmings does ensure happy retirement for his horses.  Please don't get me wrong, there is no bigger fan of NH racing than myself.  Yes he died doing what he loved, yes it was a gutsy performance and he paid the ultimate price in the public arena. Whether he needed to or not is no longer relevant.  RIP Many Clouds.


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## scotlass (28 January 2017)

Lovely words by Mick Fitzgerald to Oliver Sherwood during the interview on ITV4.   Mick Fitz is often criticised for his presenting, but today, he got that tribute spot on.   Totally heartfelt.


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## Peregrine Falcon (28 January 2017)

He gave everything right to the line.  RIP Many Clouds.  Horrible for all concerned with the horse.

Whether running him was right or wrong he would have received the best care possible.


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## Dobiegirl (28 January 2017)

Heartbreaking news and Ive been in tears all afternoon, he did have a problem with his wind  and they cauterized  his palette I believe which made a huge difference, lots of horses have this done. Oliver Sherwood has just taken the trouble to speak to our fb group, my thoughts are with him and all his connections. Many Clouds was an outstanding racehorse and will be missed so much by all who loved and admired him.


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## suffolkmare (28 January 2017)

I missed the race and think I am glad I did. I don't wish to join the ethical debate regarding the horse's previous known health issues, but just to send condolences to his "team" who I am sure will be questioning themselves since they obviously care greatly. It was a tragic end for a great horse, but there are worse ways to go than doing what you love and were born for. RIP Many Clouds


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## Chianti (28 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			That is unfair.
I have commented on another thread that the horse has a known problem and perhaps after such an heroic national win it may have been wise to call it a day.

There is a limited number of trips to the well for any horse no matter how talented or brave.  There is no doubt that the horse would have had the very best veterinary care throughout his time in training but he was known to have a potentially life ending health issue that occurred more than once after maximum exertion.  The horse has done his connections proud with many wins, £800,000 in prize money and the ultimate in the National.  Did he need to die today, in my view and I am not concerned to admit it, no I don't think he did.  It is a pity for him, his connections and for racing.
		
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I agree - he should have been retired after the National. He'd given his connections a great day and they should have thanked him by letting him enjoy the rest of his life having fun out hunting and grazing in a field. People will have to expect criticism of this.


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 January 2017)

Chianti said:



			I agree - he should have been retired after the National. He'd given his connections a great day and they should have thanked him by letting him enjoy the rest of his life having fun out hunting and grazing in a field. People will have to expect criticism of this.
		
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For everyone that says this it is the same for everything - horse and human - at the top of their game. There is always the risk of injury or fatality, known problem or not. Would you be saying this to Mark Todd after his horse had just won round Badminton - it's won a big one, retire him now. Eventing is just as hard, if not harder on a horse than racing. Would you call for the horse that wins the Supreme at HOYS to be retired on the spot because it won at the highest level? Or Big Star after he won his Olympic Gold Medal? 

Many Clouds was only 10years old. He was only 8 when he won the National. That is no age for a National Hunt Racehorse.


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## Amymay (28 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			That is unfair.
I have commented on another thread that the horse has a known problem and perhaps after such an heroic national win it may have been wise to call it a day.

There is a limited number of trips to the well for any horse no matter how talented or brave.  There is no doubt that the horse would have had the very best veterinary care throughout his time in training but he was known to have a potentially life ending health issue that occurred more than once after maximum exertion.  The horse has done his connections proud with many wins, £800,000 in prize money and the ultimate in the National.  Did he need to die today, in my view and I am not concerned to admit it, no I don't think he did.  It is a pity for him, his connections and for racing.
		
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I absolutely agree with you. 

A sad day.


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## KittenInTheTree (28 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			That is unfair.
I have commented on another thread that the horse has a known problem and perhaps after such an heroic national win it may have been wise to call it a day.

There is a limited number of trips to the well for any horse no matter how talented or brave.  There is no doubt that the horse would have had the very best veterinary care throughout his time in training but he was known to have a potentially life ending health issue that occurred more than once after maximum exertion.  The horse has done his connections proud with many wins, £800,000 in prize money and the ultimate in the National.  Did he need to die today, in my view and I am not concerned to admit it, no I don't think he did.  It is a pity for him, his connections and for racing.
		
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Cortez said:



			I am not remotely anti racing, but I am anti galloping horses to death, even more especially when he had a known problem. Bad judgement, bad horsemanship. Just bad.
		
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Well said. Very sad event


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## ycbm (28 January 2017)

EKW said:



			Eventing is just as hard, if not harder on a horse than racing.
		
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But it's not, though, is it? The death rate of horses running in an NH race must be many, many times higher than the death rate of horses running in a three day event.





			Would you call for the horse that wins the Supreme at HOYS to be retired on the spot because it won at the highest level? Or Big Star after he won his Olympic Gold Medal?
		
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If the risk of the horse dying during his next outing was as high as the risk of an NH horse dying during his next outing (is it still 1 in 250 starters these days?) then I think I probably would stop after winning the highest level if it was my horse. I would want my last memory of it competing to be at the top of its game, not its dead body in a competition venue.


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## dizzyneddy (28 January 2017)

Very sad news in deed in reminded me on Best Mate passing away in similar circumstances but not so publicly. Many clouds will be remembered like many of the great NH horses. Sadly these things happen but he could have done what Vautour & Kauto did break his leg/ injury himself fatally in a freak accident or he could have raced then be retired & live out his days. But Many Clouds was a gutsy performer & horses like him tend to die on the track. l know a hunter who died after a days hunting but no one would start saying he shouldn't have been hunted because the horse died doing something he enjoyed if a horse doesn't like racing or jumping they won't do it. My thoughts are with all his connections particularly those that cared for him on a daily basis.


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## SpringArising (28 January 2017)

Really really sad. Rest in peace Many Clouds x


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## MyBoyChe (28 January 2017)

Very sad, but I would say that he died doing what he lived to do.  To put things into perspective a little, a friends pony died of a heart attack after a half hour hack walking round the village, they had just got back to the yard, pony was stood on the yard being untacked when she simply collapsed and died.   There are much worse things that can happen to a horse than to die doing what they love. That doesnt detract from the utter sadness of this lovely horse paying the ultimate price for his heroic effort today, his trainers words were lovely and very apt.  Thoughts with his connections tonight x


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## Clodagh (28 January 2017)

Very, very sad. He was a wonderful horse, I personally don't think he should have still been running and like AA I am a huge NH fan and accept the ultimate price.
His connections must be devastated.


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## cronkmooar (28 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Trevor Hemmings does ensure happy retirement for his horses.
		
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The issue of whether or not he should have continued to race aside, this is an absolute fact.

Not only does he retire the horses at home, they also come back for their summer hols.  

I would think that the retirement Trevor Hemmings gives his horses would be amongst the best that a horse could wish for.

RIP Many Clouds

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle...ner-many-clouds-enjoys-island-break-1-7289401


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## Mariposa (28 January 2017)

I am raising a glass to Many Clouds tonight. 

Just a very very sad postscript to a wonderful race. My thoughts are with Oliver Sherwood, Lisa, CJ, Nathan and all the lads and lasses who loved him.


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## Nicnac (28 January 2017)

https://www.facebook.com/racingitv/videos/578484419018090/

RIP wonderful horse. Heart of a lion who died doing his job; a job he was bred for and for which he was given the best of lives.  A sad loss but what a wonderful way to go. Thoughts with all connections.


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## KautoStar1 (28 January 2017)

We don't know what he died of yet.  Most likely it was a heart attack and we've no way of knowing if it was connected to his previous issue which therefore may or may not be linked.  I think it's fair to assume that has he had a heart condition related to his previous issue of regulating his body temp and breathing in warmer conditions it would have been dealt with.  I don't think anyone would run a horse with a known heart condition.  it seems to me a tragic end to a fit and healthy animal.  These things can happen at anytime to anyone. 
It's easy to suggest from the comfort of an arm chair that the horse should have been retired after the National but if every horse drew stumps after a great victory we'd have none of these super stars to celebrate.


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## Crugeran Celt (28 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			That is unfair.
I have commented on another thread that the horse has a known problem and perhaps after such an heroic national win it may have been wise to call it a day.

There is a limited number of trips to the well for any horse no matter how talented or brave.  There is no doubt that the horse would have had the very best veterinary care throughout his time in training but he was known to have a potentially life ending health issue that occurred more than once after maximum exertion.  The horse has done his connections proud with many wins, £800,000 in prize money and the ultimate in the National.  Did he need to die today, in my view and I am not concerned to admit it, no I don't think he did.  It is a pity for him, his connections and for racing.
		
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Exactly this, it was time to call it a day for a great horse but pound signs not the welfare of this horse were in the eyes of owners/trainers.


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## Clodagh (28 January 2017)

KautoStar1 said:



			We don't know what he died of yet.  Most likely it was a heart attack and we've no way of knowing if it was connected to his previous issue which therefore may or may not be linked.  I think it's fair to assume that has he had a heart condition related to his previous issue of regulating his body temp and breathing in warmer conditions it would have been dealt with.  I don't think anyone would run a horse with a known heart condition.  it seems to me a tragic end to a fit and healthy animal.  These things can happen at anytime to anyone. 
It's easy to suggest from the comfort of an arm chair that the horse should have been retired after the National but if every horse drew stumps after a great victory we'd have none of these super stars to celebrate.
		
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As he won the race I said to my OH 'He gives so much, and suffers from it, it cannot be good for his heart'.


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 January 2017)

Crugeran Celt said:



			Exactly this, it was time to call it a day for a great horse but pound signs not the welfare of this horse were in the eyes of owners/trainers.
		
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His owner was Trevor Hemmings - owner of most of Blackpool with a net worth of around £81million. I don't think he is in racing for the money somehow.


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## KautoStar1 (28 January 2017)

Crugeran Celt said:



			Exactly this, it was time to call it a day for a great horse but pound signs not the welfare of this horse were in the eyes of owners/trainers.
		
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I can't disagree more with this if I tried.   You are making a huge assumption about people you don't know and a horse you have no knowledge of.


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## HanniRT (28 January 2017)

EKW said:



			His owner was Trevor Hemmings - owner of most of Blackpool with a net worth of around £81million. I don't think he is in racing for the money somehow.
		
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Exactly. He left Deepdale (home of Preston North End) at half time today looking 'shaken'.


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## TeamChaser (28 January 2017)

Agree with KS1 - his collapse today may well have been completely unrelated to any previous 'issue'. I've seen a pic taken by someone there today of him pulling up at the finish and he has ears pricked and does not look exhausted or distressed. Appreciate it's a moment in time but could indicate that he actually suffered a sudden heart attack post race. The fact is, we don't know and accusations of greed are harsh in the extreme when this horse was clearly much loved

And as I understand it, he has not collapsed post race previously, he was a bit wobbly after his wins in GN and Hennessy and needed some assistance to get temp back to normal and with oxygenation. As someone else pointed out, he has since had breathing op which is by no means uncommon. He's not the only horse to need some assistance after GN but Oliver Sherwood is really good at being very open and keeping the press/public informed so this probably gave the incident more profile

He would not have been in training or running if he had known health problems, why would you?? He looked very fit and well today and it's a tragic end to a wonderfully brave and talented horse but happens unfortunately 

RIP Many Clouds - sincere condolences to all connected to him, very sad day x


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## Kadastorm (28 January 2017)

I may sound harsh but it was his job, he was loved, treated like a king and finished his last race like the King he was. He gave his all, he appeared to love his job, he had the best possible care after the race but it was his time. This is racing and without racing, these horses would not be here. Many, many other horses die in conditions worse than this. 
My condolences to all of his connections.


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## Mrs B (28 January 2017)

Wouldn't we all like to go at the top of our game? With adrenaline and winning our final thoughts?

Or would we like to be taken by a rescue/care home with scant stimulation, inferior accommodation, little understanding of our condition ...  poor bedding, nothing recognisable, substandard meals/forage and no sense of belonging. And a long, slow, painful, boring descent to oblivion.

Think I'd rather be a racehorse.


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## Goldenstar (28 January 2017)

Mrs B said:



			Wouldn't we all like to go at the top of our game? With adrenaline and winning our final thoughts?

Or would we like to be taken by a rescue/care home with scant stimulation, inferior accommodation, little understanding of our condition ...  poor bedding, nothing recognisable, substandard meals/forage and no sense of belonging. And a long, slow, painful, boring descent to oblivion.

Think I'd rather be a racehorse.
		
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I would rather be many clouds .
Or one of my dogs .
But many horses have a sad descent into oblivion.
And many racehorse don't get the descent they deserve .


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## Honeylight (28 January 2017)

I was out today and recorded the racing. When I watched it I carefully noted how Many Clouds was after the race. He didn't look exhausted or blown and wasn't wobbling. What happened to him was more than likely unrelated to his previous problems.
It is unfortunate that the Peta and Animal Aiders will be twisting this to their own ends and ignorant, flaky people will be commenting on "A beautiful animal whipped to death".
He died quickly with minimum suffering after doing what he loved, galloping and jumping. Having ridden myself and had ponies I know they adore jumping and galloping and pleasing their humans.
A very sad day and my thoughts go to those who cared for him every day.


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## Alec Swan (28 January 2017)

Mrs B said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Or would we like to be taken by a rescue/care home with scant stimulation, inferior accommodation, little understanding of our condition ...  poor bedding, nothing recognisable, substandard meals/forage and no sense of belonging. And a long, slow, painful, boring descent to oblivion.

&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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You missed out;  And kept in that state as a means of prising pennies from purses.

Alec.


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## Mrs B (28 January 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			And many racehorse don't get the descent they deserve .
		
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Agree with that too but all we can do is keep plugging on about welfare and responsibility. And leading by example. 

*crawls into a sad corner for a bit*


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 January 2017)

Mrs B said:



			Agree with that too but all we can do is keep plugging on about welfare and responsibility. And leading by example. 

*crawls into a sad corner for a bit*
		
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Racing is working on it! I can promise you! The ROR are doing a lot, more racehorse retraining centres are being set up, trainers are taking more responsibility in what happens to their horses once they retire and owners are being more careful too - they don't want to be tarred with the same brush that Kauto Star was. All of the horses that leave our yard know they can come back at any time. Racing is getting there with what happens after.


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## Mrs B (28 January 2017)

Thank you for that, Honeylight.



Alec Swan said:



			You missed out;  And kept in that state as a means of prising pennies from purses.

Alec.
		
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Alec, I don't know what to say. I am at a loss. If WE can't accommodate or care, someone else has to and it costs. And those who charge see it as a business not a charity. And they would be mad not to.

Sorry to hijack, folks! But it is very relevant ...

Some authorities are paying £350 a week towards fees and the care homes can only operate at £850 plus a week per person, no profit. 

But back to the topic.

It's life. We can't all be kept in boredom & cotton wool and without risk. It worries me greatly that we seem to have lost sight of our place in things. For  such a creature as a TB, there is no life without racing. It's what they DO. We have developed such a creature. Like we have developed the border collie to herd sheep. 

I think everything; horse, human, dog needs a job. A purpose. Or else, what's the point?


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## Alec Swan (28 January 2017)

I'm wondering Mrs B if you may have missed my point.

Alec.


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## Mrs B (28 January 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm wondering Mrs B if you may have missed my point.

Alec.
		
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Did I? Do explain .... (but don't expect an answer tonight ... it's been a long day and it's the usual 6am start  )


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## Alec Swan (28 January 2017)

I was supporting you argument,  the point which I suspect you may have missed.  

Alec.


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## Mrs B (29 January 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			I was supporting you argument,  the point which I suspect you may have missed.  

Alec.
		
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Apologies ... Highly likely! Yesterday was a loooong day


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## popsdosh (29 January 2017)

To many assuming it had any relevance to his previous problems witjout waiting for the PM results . Certainly several close to the horse do not believe so!


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## Maesfen (29 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Trevor Hemmings does ensure happy retirement for his horses.  Please don't get me wrong, there is no bigger fan of NH racing than myself.  Yes he died doing what he loved, yes it was a gutsy performance and he paid the ultimate price in the public arena. Whether he needed to or not is no longer relevant.  RIP Many Clouds.
		
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It's just because it was in the public eye after a great race but it could so easily have been in his stable, field, on the gallops or out hunting too.  
Would you be moaning then other than to mark your sadness?  More likely you'd be saying he was doing what he enjoyed and what a lovely way to go.

Nobody who saw that race could doubt for a minute that he was having fun, jumping like a buck all the way through.  He was doing what he loved best; who could ask for more?

Somebody asked once what ITV racing would do in the case of a fatality and I personally thought they handled it well but took too long about it and then never showed a clip at the end of him racing which would have finished it off nicely.  Don't drone on about something and then ignore it completely as if the race never happened,


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## Clodagh (29 January 2017)

Masfen - I too wish they had cobbled together a quick tribute package of his wins, perhaps they will next Saturday. I thought they handled it well, but did possibly go on a little bit, and when interviewing Oliver Sherwood they obviously wanted more sentimentality from him than they got. Personally I thought Oliver was great and came across spot on, but I think Ed would have preferred a tear or two from him.


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## popsdosh (29 January 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Masfen - I too wish they had cobbled together a quick tribute package of his wins, perhaps they will next Saturday. I thought they handled it well, but did possibly go on a little bit, and when interviewing Oliver Sherwood they obviously wanted more sentimentality from him than they got. Personally I thought Oliver was great and came across spot on, but I think Ed would have preferred a tear or two from him.
		
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Oliver had already shed his tears along with NH and AK they were with him when he got back from being with the horse .they had a couple of swift drinks before Oliver had the press to deal with.


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## Alec Swan (29 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			To many assuming it had any relevance to his previous problems witjout waiting for the PM results . Certainly several close to the horse do not believe so!
		
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It was interesting,  it was I believe Mick Fitz&#8230; who when saying that the horse had 'gone down',  or words to the effect said that "That's what happens to 'him' sometimes,  it isn't unusual and they'll rehydrate him,  they're highly experienced.  He'll be fine" and from that we can only conclude that he thought it was a return of the previous problem.

Many Clouds previously had a wind op and the reports were positive.  He crossed the line with no obvious signs of distress and then he collapsed.  Until there is more information given,  and accepting that we can only surmise,  and as his previous end-of-race problems seemed to be behind him,  it would be a fairly safe bet that the poor chap's heart gave out on him.

It's all supposition and we don't know,  but I only hope that those who owned,  trained,  cared for and clearly adored him,  don't read the comments where others blame them.  MC was only 10 years of age,  he had more racing in him but sometimes we just have to accept that these things happen,  and that as much as we may like to,  we cannot pin the blame label on anyone.

Alec.


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## Elf On A Shelf (29 January 2017)

It was confirmed late last night that it was a heart attack.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 January 2017)

My first thought was that it was a pity they had kept him going, but of course I have no knowledge of the horse or his veterinary record, so my initial reaction was flawed.
We all know when we send a horse out to race that they may not come back, indeed when they go for a canter they may not come back, when we give them a rub on the face at night, it may be their last night, one never knows, its always a risk.
I think of all the good horses I looked after, who died after retirement from racing, most of them were retired sound, but past their prime,  but there is no absolute guarantee they will live in happy circumstances for many years.
It is a race we will all remember,  it was exciting, and then, it was gutting.


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## Crugeran Celt (29 January 2017)

EKW said:



			His owner was Trevor Hemmings - owner of most of Blackpool with a net worth of around £81million. I don't think he is in racing for the money somehow.
		
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I think you will find it doesn't matter how much money a person has it doesn't prevent them having the desire to make more.  Still a very sad day for racing but we will never know that if he hadn't raced yesterday he may have died at home. It's happened and lets hope it will make trainers and owners think twice before pushing an animal beyond its capabilities in the future. Not going to happen I know but we can live in hope.


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## Alec Swan (29 January 2017)

EKW said:



			It was confirmed late last night that it was a heart attack.
		
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Thank you,  it was always going to be the most likely outcome.

Alec.


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## popsdosh (29 January 2017)

Crugeran Celt said:



			I think you will find it doesn't matter how much money a person has it doesn't prevent them having the desire to make more.  Still a very sad day for racing but we will never know that if he hadn't raced yesterday he may have died at home. It's happened and lets hope it will make trainers and owners think twice before pushing an animal beyond its capabilities in the future. Not going to happen I know but we can live in hope.
		
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You show very little understanding of racing and have a warped view of racing. Nobody does it to make money its akin to standing in a shower tearing up £50 notes. Many clouds was not pushed beyond his capabilities in any way what happened can happen at any time even to your own except not in such exposed way!  You will not find any more caring owner than TH he has many retired racehorses at his Stud and also gives many away to riders so they enjoy a second career.


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## ester (29 January 2017)

It came up elsewhere about racing him for the money, clearly that is not the case but all the other reasons people race horses could well have applied. 
My concern and what I have gleaned from elsewhere is that if the horse is experiencing hyperthermia it may well make it more predisposed to experiencing associated heart issues than if it were not so the two are certainly not unrelated physiologically. I assume that the horse did not get hyperthermic at home or they wouldn't have continued to race him so if that is the case then I am not sure it is accurate to say it could have happened anywhere.


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## dizzyneddy (29 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			You show very little understanding of racing and have a warped view of racing. Nobody does it to make money its akin to standing in a shower tearing up £50 notes. Many clouds was not pushed beyond his capabilities in any way what happened can happen at any time even to your own except not in such exposed way!  You will not find any more caring owner than TH he has many retired racehorses at his Stud and also gives many away to riders so they enjoy a second career.
		
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l believe that TH has done alot in other horse disciplines and l'm pretty sure he owns High Kingdom who Zara Tindall events. If something similar had happened to him after a cross country round l don't think many of the comments that have been said on here would be made. TH is only one of a number of big race owners look at Synchronised the Gold Cup winner who died in the Grand National no one condemned his owner J. P. McManus. Even George Washington and Red Cadeaux died after breaking legs racing on the flat. It's sadly one of those things that happens in any sport. Everyone who's into horse racing were anticipating a clash between Many Clouds and Thistlecrack and they didn't half battle it out. Without some of the big race owners that we have both on the flat and NH l think racing would not be the same.


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## ycbm (29 January 2017)

dizzyneddy said:



			If something similar had happened .... after a cross country round don't think many of the comments that have been said on here would be made. .
		
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I'm sorry I disagree. If something like it happened to a horse which had previously collapsed at the end of cross country or required oxygen to be administered to prevent it collapsing, more than once,  then the leisure horse world would have gone absolutely berserk that the horse was ever run again and then died at the end of the course.


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## ycbm (29 January 2017)

Crugeran Celt said:



			I think you will find it doesn't matter how much money a person has it doesn't prevent them having the desire to make more.  Still a very sad day for racing but we will never know that if he hadn't raced yesterday he may have died at home. It's happened and lets hope it will make trainers and owners think twice before pushing an animal beyond its capabilities in the future. Not going to happen I know but we can live in hope.
		
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It's not the desire to make more money that drives these people (my brother is one and my OH and I have worked with others) is the winning. It is fundamental to their psyche to win, whatever they do.


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## popsdosh (29 January 2017)

ester said:



			It came up elsewhere about racing him for the money, clearly that is not the case but all the other reasons people race horses could well have applied. 
My concern and what I have gleaned from elsewhere is that if the horse is experiencing hyperthermia it may well make it more predisposed to experiencing associated heart issues than if it were not so the two are certainly not unrelated physiologically. I assume that the horse did not get hyperthermic at home or they wouldn't have continued to race him so if that is the case then I am not sure it is accurate to say it could have happened anywhere.
		
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Where have you got the notion he suffered with hypothermia thats way off the mark. That horse would not have run if his condition put him at risk of a heart attack full stop


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## popsdosh (29 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			I'm sorry I disagree. If something like it happened to a horse which had previously collapsed at the end of cross country or required oxygen to be administered to prevent it collapsing, more than once,  then the leisure horse world would have gone absolutely berserk that the horse was ever run again and then died at the end of the course.
		
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I really suggest some time you go through the losses in 4* eventing including of course the ones you dont see and see if you change your mind.Its just in racing it is very public. Having been involved in many horse sports racing has by far the best welfare measures in place for the horses taking part. They really have to because everybody sees it when it goes wrong.


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## be positive (29 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Where have you got the notion he suffered with hypothermia thats way off the mark. That horse would not have run if his condition put him at risk of a heart attack full stop
		
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It is well known that he suffered from hyperthermia after winning at Aintree and that measures were in place to help cool him after other races, the wind op was done in an effort to help as being unable to breathe efficiently would have a bearing on his ability to maintain his temperature and get it down after the effort of a race. 
I am sure they never expected his life to be cut short by this condition but there is a connection, to suggest it is certainly not way off the mark, although it would be if he suffered from hypothermia which is highly unlikely during a race.


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## ester (29 January 2017)

what be positive said, hyperthermia not hypo! Well known and not way off the mark so as to be totally inconsequential from the physiology boffs I have spoken to about it.


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## ycbm (29 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I really suggest some time you go through the losses in 4* eventing including of course the ones you dont see and see if you change your mind.Its just in racing it is very public. Having been involved in many horse sports racing has by far the best welfare measures in place for the horses taking part. They really have to because everybody sees it when it goes wrong.
		
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Arghh, come on Popsdosh. You know full well that the losses in four star eventing bear no comparison to the 1 in 250 starters deaths on the course in NH racing. It would mean that several horses a year would die on the course, and they don't, it's a rare occurrence. And if 4* deaths behind the scenes are greater than the number of NH horses shot once they get home due to injuries sustained in training or on the course I'll eat my hat.

I'm not saying this is good, bad, or indifferent, but there is simply no sense in trying to convince anyone that any other equestrian discipline matches the death rates of NH racing. They don't come anywhere close.


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## Alec Swan (29 January 2017)

Well,  I've learned something and I'd suggest that those with an interest google HypERthermia and HypOthermia.  They're virtual opposites of each other,  it seems!

By all accounts at the end of a race and after extensive energy expenditure,  one (nope,  I'm not going back to check!) can result in a sudden and occasionally catastrophic drop in blood pressure with death being the usual outcome.

Alec.


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## ester (29 January 2017)

same with everything Alec always opposite  you just add another sciencey word on the end, like diabetics get hypo and hyper glycaemia


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## popsdosh (29 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Arghh, come on Popsdosh. You know full well that the losses in four star eventing bear no comparison to the 1 in 250 starters deaths on the course in NH racing. It would mean that several horses a year would die on the course, and they don't, it's a rare occurrence. And if 4* deaths behind the scenes are greater than the number of NH horses shot once they get home due to injuries sustained in training or on the course I'll eat my hat.

I'm not saying this is good, bad, or indifferent, but there is simply no sense in trying to convince anyone that any other equestrian discipline matches the death rates of NH racing. They don't come anywhere close.
		
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Fatality rate is one in 289 starters in FEI 4* competition its all available  to research if you know where to look.Think about it as on average one in every 3 4* competitions and its not so far fetched.


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## Elf On A Shelf (29 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			And if 4* deaths behind the scenes are greater than the number of NH horses shot once they get home due to injuries sustained in training or on the course I'll eat my hat.
		
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I saved one from this fate. We were sitting having lunch at Newcastle before racing started and the lass was telling me her runner from the day before had broken down badly. The fetlock was dropping and was going to be put down at home the following day. He was one of the yard favourites so needless to say no one was happy about it. So I showed her pictures of my grey lad who completely ruptured his tendon who is living the life of riley as a show horse. This then lead to her ringing her boss who came into the canteen and I showed them the pictures and said what I did with GreyMo and their face lit up. They really didn't see another outcome for such a bad injury but Gray changed all that. And I am sure he has changed the fate of others from that yard too. That horse is now, 3 years down the line, doing bits and pieces of dressage, showing and happy hacking not far from where he was trained.

Sometimes people need to see for their own eyes before they will believe that anything is possible.


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## ycbm (29 January 2017)

Fantastic EKW. I know racing is really trying to do right by their failed horses, and I really respect the progress that has been made. You're a shining example.


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## ycbm (29 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Fatality rate is one in 289 starters in FEI 4* competition its all available  to research if you know where to look.Think about it as on average one in every 3 4* competitions and its not so far fetched.
		
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Please tell me where I look for that statistic PD, because I can't find the name of a single horse that's died on course online.


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## Lexi_ (30 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Please tell me where I look for that statistic PD, because I can't find the name of a single horse that's died on course online.
		
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I'd be interested to see this too because that stat seems awfully high to me unless they're all occurring at Kentucky/Pau/Adelaide. I can't think of one at Badminton or Burghley for many years - there was that awful accident where a French horse at Badminton spiked itself on a broken flag at the Vicarage Vee and it hit an artery but that was years ago so presumably wouldn't count in those stats. The only one that I can remember is poor Wild Lone at WEG in 2014 but that was a heart attack afterwards, not a death on course.

I can think of a couple of others that happened at BE advanced level but there must be many more starters there, so the rate is presumably much lower.


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## Wimbles (30 January 2017)

Another here that was extremely saddened to hear what happened to Many Clouds, a horse that as a massive National Hunt fan, I loved to watch.

I was out coaching all afternoon on Saturday and saw someone's post on Facebook about him dying after winning the race. 

On Saturday night when I got home I didn't watch the recorded racing as I do every Saturday night without fail.  I felt like I didn't want to know.  

Sunday morning came and I decided that I needed to see for myself what exactly happened.  I've never been so nervous watching a race that I already knew the result of.  I watched the big dark horse jump from fence to fence without missing a beat and I watched a great horse out battle a young upstart up the Cheltenham hill.  He wanted it more.  Then I was shocked.  I didn't see the horse drop like a stone few yards after the line, like has happened before.  What I saw was the horse pull up to a walk whilst his elated jockey, Leighton Aspell, threw his arms round the great horse's neck in an embrace that spoke volumes about his love for the animal that had tried so hard for him, answering his every urging.  The horse's ears were pricked as he walked round and for a minute I wondered if the person on Facebook had got it wrong.  Then the commentators said that he had gone down.

After watching the footage it looked very different to what happened in the National but I'm not an expert.  The horse had seemed so much better after his races following his breathing op and I guess it's like all of us who have had a horse with an injury, we take the time to try and repair that problem so we can use the horse for what we want and so that they can go on to try and excel in something that we feel they have a talent in.

On a personal note I found that the footage of what happened to Many Clouds helped me with something.  My Father died suddenly from a heart attack.  My Mum found him dead in bed when one of the other Doctors reported that he had not turned up for work.  It's always bothered me that he would have been alone and terrified when it happened but, maybe naively, seeing Many Clouds with his ears pricked just seconds before he went down , made me feel so much better.

The connections of this lovely horse have my sincere sympathy as they clearly loved him and I know some people don't feel the same as I do about racing, but for this National Hunt fan, I am thankful that they allowed me to enjoy the Many Clouds experience.


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## asterope (30 January 2017)

Just a note on heart attacks in horses - they don't tend to have heart attacks like humans do, from blockages or what we know as heart disease (although they can have heart defects that can lead to death). What usually happens is that the aorta ruptures, causing the horse's blood pressure to drop dramatically. Death is very quick, ranging from literally seconds to a few minutes. It's not known what the cause is, although there are several theories, including that it may be more likely to occur in older horses who have weaker blood vessels, a lack of copper in the diet, or parasite migration. 

It doesn't appear to be related to excessive exertion, although horses have been known to die in this way during breeding (see the harness stallion Pacific Fella) (and, of course, after exercise).


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## Orangehorse (30 January 2017)

Very sad for everyone, but horses die like this.  Running around the field, out on a Pleasure Ride, hunting, etc.  It just isn't public usually.


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## Zoejl (30 January 2017)

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/horse-death-could-not-be-prevented-jbgbpcnwx


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## popsdosh (30 January 2017)

Just for those who say its just about the money please try and find some time to read this !

Many Clouds - Oliver Sherwood Stable Visit
Many Clouds - Oliver Sherwood Stable Visit


PICTURE: Getty Images


'He gave a lot of people a lot of pleasure'

BY JAMES BURN 12:50PM 30 JAN 2017

GROOM Chris 'CJ' Jerdin, who looked after Many Clouds since his arrival in Oliver Sherwood's yard, reflects on the loss of the popular chaser

Clouds was a tall, gangly horse and I never thought he'd turn out like he did &#8211; you never think they'll win a Grand National.

At the beginning he was a nervous horse and if you said boo he'd jump six foot in the air, but once he got to know you he was pretty good and easy to look after &#8211; he wouldn't hurt a fly. He loved the attention and cameras and people visiting him; a little girl was due to come to see him next week, but she won't be able to now.

He was always going to be a chaser and loved his jumping, which stood him in good stead in the National.

I remember I was ill on the day with food poisoning and once he was bedded down for the day I told our travelling head girl Lisa Kozak to call me at 1pm to get him ready.

I wasn't nervous because I didn't expect him to win, but he did. And then he had that wobble and knocked me down, but Alice Plunkett was very good and looked after me.

I've watched the National all my life and it's great when the winner comes in with the police horses. I didn't get the chance because of that wobble, but I thought I'd get another this season.

When he came back in he looked fitter than the previous year. He'd had his wind op and his demeanour was completely different, so I was expecting big things of him &#8211;&#8211; I think the guv'nor was as well &#8211;and I like to think he's proved us right because he's beaten one of the best horses people are saying they've seen.

'He's certainly the best I've done'

Clouds is certainly the best I've done. I can&#8217;t speak for the guv'nor, but I'd think he's the best horse he's trained and Saturday was his best performance.

It took us five minutes to get him into Cheltenham because people wanted pictures as he came off the box. I've never had a horse with so much public affection like he had.

After the race, Leighton [Aspell] said he'd gone and I regret not patting him &#8211; I just went away too upset and I wish I'd said goodbye.

I didn't go into the yard this morning and it hit me last night when we got back and saw his box and knew it was never going to be used by him again. That was really upsetting for me and Lisa.

I lost a horse four years ago and someone said you should be used to it now at your age. I'm 62 and have been in the sport since I was 15, but you never get to used to it and if you do you shouldn't be working with animals.

Ninety-nine point nine per cent of racehorses are the best-kept animals in the world and the vets at Cheltenham, and at Aintree after the National, were second to none &#8211; they looked after him fantastically.

He wanted for nothing and meant everything to me. He was the reason I enjoyed going to work, now it's going to be very difficult, but he won't be forgotten.

I wasn't looking forward to retirement because I love racing so much and Clouds made it easier for me. I won't get another like him and I'm due to retire in two years, when he would&#8217;ve been 12, so I was hoping we could go out together. It broke my heart. I&#8217;m old-school, but you never get over it.

My favourite memory of him was that he gave a lot of people a lot of pleasure. People came to see him every week and I'm very proud and humbled to be associated with him.

Someone said on TV Thistlecrack's vulnerable now and people will take him on, but I hope Mr Tizzard wins the Gold Cup because that'd prove what we thought of Clouds. He wasn't a good horse, he was a great horse.


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## Dobiegirl (30 January 2017)

The BHA can confirm that Many Clouds was found to have suffered from a cardiac failure, this was the cause of his death following the race.
No underlying health issues were discovered in the autopsy.
Many Clouds had worn a heart rate monitor, provided by "EquinITy Intelligent Training" in training on November 17th 2016. EquinITy has confirmed that the data showed that the horse had no abnormalities with his heart function prior to the race.
While Many Clouds had shown symptoms of post race ataxia in the past, a syndrome characterised by loss of balance in walking following exercise, the horse had never collapsed before, the horse had shown no signs of post race ataxia or similar symptoms following the conclusion of the race on Saturday.
Tony Welsh acting chief veterinary officer for the BHA added:
"Post race ataxia and similar symptoms are linked to an increase in body temperature after exercise and can be treated by providing the horse with water.
It is not uncommon in racehorses or other sport horses. Despite some reports following the incident, there is no existing veterinary evidence which links these symptoms with racehorse fatalities, and the post mortem results have categorically proved that the symptoms exhibited by Many Clouds in the past were in no way present or associated with his sad death at Cheltenham.
The fatality rate within jump racing for horses suffering from cardiac failure is just 0.048% of runners.
The overall fatality rate within British Racing has decreased by 1/3 in the last 20 years owing to the sports significant ongoing investment in equine health and welfare.
"Sudden equine heart attacks such as these are rare. It has been known to happen to horses at rest as well as after exercise and can occur in horses which have no underlying health issues and amongst all disciplines of sport horses".


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## Elf On A Shelf (30 January 2017)

The sad thing is is that they shouldn't have had to do a press release or give out the results of the post mortem. But the public will never be satisfied until every bit of blood is drawn from a stone.


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## popsdosh (30 January 2017)

EKW said:



			The sad thing is is that they shouldn't have had to do a press release or give out the results of the post mortem. But the public will never be satisfied until every bit of blood is drawn from a stone.
		
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Exactly but I guess those that know better will soon tell us they are wrong! I backed him on Saturday as I knew what a fighter he was ,my winnings today have gone to Brooke to help those less fortunate than he.


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## Mrs B (30 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Exactly but I guess those that know better will soon tell us they are wrong! I backed him on Saturday as I knew what a fighter he was ,my winnings today have gone to Brooke to help those less fortunate than he.
		
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Wish there was a 'like' button ...


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## ycbm (30 January 2017)

EKW said:



			The sad thing is is that they shouldn't have had to do a press release or give out the results of the post mortem. But the public will never be satisfied until every bit of blood is drawn from a stone.
		
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popsdosh said:



			Exactly but I guess those that know better will soon tell us they are wrong!
		
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Surely the racecourse visitors and TV watchers and gamblers whose money pays for racing to be staged at all have a right to know that their money is being spent ethically? It doesn't seem unreasonable to me given the horse's well known issues.  It feels to me like they have a right to know, though I agree that I don't and probably nor do most of HHO.


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## Tiddlypom (30 January 2017)

EKW said:



			The sad thing is is that they shouldn't have had to do a press release or give out the results of the post mortem. But the public will never be satisfied until every bit of blood is drawn from a stone.
		
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That's unfair. After MC's very public distress after his 2015 GN win, (where I and many 1000s of other tv viewers were shouting at our screens to fgs stop the ridiculous post race mike on a stick interview to tend to the evidently distressed horse), to his sad demise after another hard race, I think that the BHA needed to make a statement to reassure the wider public.

Like it or not, a prominent well loved racehorse becomes public property, and many follow his/her career and welfare with good intentions. To clam up after a sad event like this fuels suspicion.

As it is, the statement was well considered, and has certainly reassured me somewhat that his earlier problems and his death were most probably not linked.


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## popsdosh (30 January 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Like it or not, a prominent well loved racehorse becomes public property, and many follow his/her career and welfare with good intentions. To clam up after a sad event like this fuels suspicion.

As it is, the statement was well considered, and has certainly reassured me somewhat that his earlier problems and his death were most probably not linked.
		
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I have no issue with people wanting to know ,but what bugs me sometimes is the conclusions that are immediately drawn that it was all due to his previous history.I said that night it did not look like it was and I had that from somebody who should know but this was still quite a degree of disbelief to put it in a nut shell. To get the answers that were required takes time and cannot be immediate. I believe every horse that has a fatal accident on the racecourse is PMed as routine so that the results feed back into the ongoing work.   I am not sure a lot of general riders understand how much of the medical step forwards with their horses has been due to research funded through racing as they strive to make the sport safer for all horses. Its like all things like this I wish that everybody could just not over react but give the truth a chance to come out.


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## popsdosh (30 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Surely the racecourse visitors and TV watchers and gamblers whose money pays for racing to be staged at all have a right to know that their money is being spent ethically? It doesn't seem unreasonable to me given the horse's well known issues.  It feels to me like they have a right to know, though I agree that I don't and probably nor do most of HHO.
		
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Surely they know now ,I never had any doubt you would be told. It cant be there and then otherwise it would just be guess work at lot of the time. I really think many had the view it would be covered up,why I dont know.


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## Alec Swan (30 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Exactly but I guess those that know better will soon tell us they are wrong! I backed him on Saturday as I knew what a fighter he was ,my winnings today have gone to Brooke to help those less fortunate than he.
		
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Tiddlypom said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Like it or not, a prominent well loved racehorse becomes public property, and many follow his/her career and welfare with good intentions. To clam up after a sad event like this fuels suspicion.

&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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popsdosh,  whilst applauding your generosity,  I'd also refer you to your well received and previous post 87.  And then as Tiddlypom has said,  when horses are followed with a fan-base,  the public have a certain right to be kept informed.  The owners and trainers are extant,  in the main,  for public approval with their charges often held in great affection.  

Do we remember the furore over the untimely loss of Kauto Star?  Were the public,  in the main entitled to be appalled at the treatment which he received?  I think that they were.  Nothing that happens to these well known and idolised horses is beyond public scrutiny,  as I feel that most owners and trainers will accept.

Alec.


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## popsdosh (30 January 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			popsdosh,  whilst applauding your generosity,  I'd also refer you to your well received and previous post 87.  And then as Tiddlypom has said,  when horses are followed with a fan-base,  the public have a certain right to be kept informed.  The owners and trainers are extant,  in the main,  for public approval with their charges often held in great affection.  

Do we remember the furore over the untimely loss of Kauto Star?  Were the public,  in the main entitled to be appalled at the treatment which he received?  I think that they were.  Nothing that happens to these well known and idolised horses is beyond public scrutiny,  as I feel that most owners and trainers will accept.

Alec.
		
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I accept that Alec 
maybe post 94 may have put it better. It just cant be immediate surely it is right to take the time needed to be certain. What OS did on saturday took some guts and I dont think anybody could say he was not open.If you look on the RP website there is an interview with Ed Chamberlain praising OS for doing what he did in such circumstances . I really did not see anybody clamming up as it was described by TP and just to keep the record straight it is no criticism of what was in that post.


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## Alec Swan (30 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..
maybe post 94 may have put it better. It just cant be immediate surely it is right to take the time needed to be certain.
		
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Without question.  

Alec.


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## Crugeran Celt (30 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			You show very little understanding of racing and have a warped view of racing. Nobody does it to make money its akin to standing in a shower tearing up £50 notes. Many clouds was not pushed beyond his capabilities in any way what happened can happen at any time even to your own except not in such exposed way!  You will not find any more caring owner than TH he has many retired racehorses at his Stud and also gives many away to riders so they enjoy a second career.
		
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You are right I know absolutely nothing about racing and as I said we will never know if he was left at home that day he may still have died of a heart attack just sad that such a great horse who had displayed health issues in the past wasn't retired sooner.


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## Casey76 (31 January 2017)

BEVA report that the cause of death was pulmonary haemorrhage  https://www.beva.org.uk/Home/News-Archive/entryid/869


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## Maesfen (31 January 2017)

EKW said:



			The sad thing is is that they shouldn't have had to do a press release or give out the results of the post mortem. But the public will never be satisfied until every bit of blood is drawn from a stone.
		
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How right and it's the same about anyone that dies who was in the public eye.  The only people entitled to know are the immediate family, possibly their authorities if it happened 'at work' but nobody else so all those demanding to know should get on their bikes IMHO; you wouldn't ask for the details of a PM for a person and I can't see any difference with a horse, even one in the public eye.


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## ycbm (31 January 2017)

Maesfen said:



			How right and it's the same about anyone that dies who was in the public eye.  The only people entitled to know are the immediate family, possibly their authorities if it happened 'at work' but nobody else so all those demanding to know should get on their bikes IMHO; you wouldn't ask for the details of a PM for a person and I can't see any difference with a horse, even one in the public eye.
		
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I've said it already, so apologies if I'm boring anyone.

I think that the difference is that the horse had no choice in the 'work' that he is engaged in, and the gamblers, TV viewers and racecourse attendees finance the sport that he is working in and are entitled to know that their money is being spent ethically.


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## Maesfen (31 January 2017)

I suppose with age I've become more sensitive regards feelings about death; that the details should be kept for close family only not open for public scrutiny, doesn't matter who they are or what their stage was.


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## Elf On A Shelf (31 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			I've said it already, so apologies if I'm boring anyone.

I think that the difference is that the horse had no choice in the 'work' that he is engaged in, and the gamblers, TV viewers and racecourse attendees finance the sport that he is working in and are entitled to know that their money is being spent ethically.
		
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Did you ever see Battle Group or Mad Moose race - or not in their cases! Can't make half a tonne of adrenaline fueled muscle do anything it doesn't want to do!

If you watch the end of the race Many Clouds gets headed and going nearly half a length down but he fought back to get back up on the line because he <i>wanted</i> to. If he didn't he could have just moseyed on home watching Thistlecrack's tail.

Yes we train them to be competative, we train them to have a will to win but if the horse doesnt want to know you can't make him. That's the difference between a good racehorse and a bad racehorse. Same with humans - You could have all the talent in the world at sprinting, or the high jump, or gymnastics but if you don't want to do it then you simply don't or you put in a half arsed effort.


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## popsdosh (31 January 2017)

EKW said:



			Did you ever see Battle Group or Mad Moose race - or not in their cases! Can't make half a tonne of adrenaline fueled muscle do anything it doesn't want to do!

If you watch the end of the race Many Clouds gets headed and going nearly half a length down but he fought back to get back up on the line because he <i>wanted</i> to. If he didn't he could have just moseyed on home watching Thistlecrack's tail.

Yes we train them to be competative, we train them to have a will to win but if the horse doesnt want to know you can't make him. That's the difference between a good racehorse and a bad racehorse. Same with humans - You could have all the talent in the world at sprinting, or the high jump, or gymnastics but if you don't want to do it then you simply don't or you put in a half arsed effort.
		
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Well done !  Well put!!!!


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## Tiddlypom (31 January 2017)

No one could doubt Many Cloud's desire to race and win. The question was, seeing as he would never give up, was he physically fit enough to continue to be asked to bottom himself in the winning?


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## lar (31 January 2017)

Wimbles said:



			Sunday morning came and I decided that I needed to see for myself what exactly happened.  I've never been so nervous watching a race that I already knew the result of.  I watched the big dark horse jump from fence to fence without missing a beat and I watched a great horse out battle a young upstart up the Cheltenham hill.  He wanted it more.  Then I was shocked.  I didn't see the horse drop like a stone few yards after the line, like has happened before.  What I saw was the horse pull up to a walk whilst his elated jockey, Leighton Aspell, threw his arms round the great horse's neck in an embrace that spoke volumes about his love for the animal that had tried so hard for him, answering his every urging.  The horse's ears were pricked as he walked round and for a minute I wondered if the person on Facebook had got it wrong.  Then the commentators said that he had gone down.


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Yes this - this is what I saw too.  And what EKW just said.  

I watched MC's previous race where he won and I watched this race "live" on the TV and this is also what I saw.  I didn't see a horse beaten past it's point of endurance.  I saw a horse "loving" his job (if that's not too anthropromorphic a statement), who was jumping from fence to fence with his ears pricked, who was an experienced racehorse and showed the young upstart that it's about more than being fast and jumping extravagantly, that sometimes it's about sticking your head down and WANTING to finish first.  And he did not pull up looking exhausted.  In the final shot before they cut away he had his ears pricked and looked comfortable.

That was why it was such a shock when they said he was down.


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## popsdosh (31 January 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			No one could doubt Many Cloud's desire to race and win. The question was, seeing as he would never give up, was he physically fit enough to continue to be asked to bottom himself in the winning?
		
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Of course he was!! Point me to any signs of distress prior to him collapsing some time after crossing the line. These things happen even to the best


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## Maesfen (31 January 2017)

There was a lovely pic of him on FB having just finished with LA's arms around him.  He has his ears pricked and looks totally happy, no clue to what happened seconds later even if you now look for signs of collapse.  Shame I can't find the pic now else I'd link it.


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## Tiddlypom (31 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Of course he was!! Point me to any signs of distress prior to him collapsing some time after crossing the line. These things happen even to the best
		
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I'm agreeing with you. I saw a brief glimpse of him walking around post race on the news, and he seemed in great order.

However, on first hearing of his death, it was only natural for folk to jump to the conclusion that his earlier very public problems had finally got the better of him. This is why releasing details of his health, treatment and monitoring since then helped to allay fears about the ethics of keeping him on in training, though some people on here seem to think that it is nothing to do with the public.


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## bonny (31 January 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			I'm agreeing with you. I saw a brief glimpse of him walking around post race on the news, and he seemed in great order.

However, on first hearing of his death, it was only natural for folk to jump to the conclusion that his earlier very public problems had finally got the better of him. This is why releasing details of his health, treatment and monitoring since then helped to allay fears about the ethics of keeping him on in training, though some people on here seem to think that it is nothing to do with the public.
		
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I think it's got a lot to do with the public, he was racing in public in a televisied race and was a well known horse with a well known problem. People care about racing and about the horses involved and the image of racing with the general population is very important if it's going to thrive in the future. Everything should be open to the public and to hold back information would be detrimental.


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## ycbm (2 February 2017)

bonny said:



			I think it's got a lot to do with the public, he was racing in public in a televisied race and was a well known horse with a well known problem. People care about racing and about the horses involved and the image of racing with the general population is very important if it's going to thrive in the future. Everything should be open to the public and to hold back information would be detrimental.
		
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This.

EKW and others. I did not mean that the horse did not want to race. Of course you cannot make a horse race if it doesn't want to. I meant that it could not take the decision to risk racing, that decision was made for it by humans.  So I think that the public who pay for it to be able to race through gate receipts, gambling and TV subscriptions have a right to know that decision wss made ethically, especially in the case of a horse with known issues.


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## popsdosh (2 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			This.

EKW and others. I did not mean that the horse did not want to race. Of course you cannot make a horse race if it doesn't want to. I meant that it could not take the decision to risk racing, that decision was made for it by humans.  So I think that the public who pay for it to be able to race through gate receipts, gambling and TV subscriptions have a right to know that decision wss made ethically, especially in the case of a horse with known issues.
		
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Just to state the obvious the owner pays for the horse to race nobody else.Without the money the sport would not exist but arguably the owners put more in than anybody to the whole racing economy.
 To much is being made of known issues he had post race ataxia on two occasions both times easily rectified its not that unusual. One of those was at the end of the Grand national which is significantly further than saturdays race and several horses that day had to be treated because I seem to remember it was for the time of year extremely hot.


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