# Soaking hay for weight loss



## now_loves_mares (29 June 2010)

My WB/ID is really too fat, her muzzle rubbed so I'm strip grazing, but sometimes they have to come in. She gets RAO so I feed haylage in winter but in summer that goes off too quickly, so she gets soaked hay if stood in. I read that if you soak it for ages, it takes most of the sugar out, and therefore I presume the calories? BUt how long is ages - 12 hours? 24? Most of the time I can't plan that far in advance, but even if I soak it for say 4 hours, that's got to be better than nothing I presume? The water is certainly a very dark tea colour if I do that.

I have been double or even triple netting it, but she's clever at hauling it out fast 

Also, random question, my other horse seems to like drinking the leftover soaking water - is this just like sugarbeet liquid, or in fact some kind of poison that is going to kill her?

(I also wondered if I could use this to water my garden but not sure if it would work like nettle tea, ie a great fertiliser, or just kill my plants . I may need a gardening forum for this question though!)


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## BigRed (29 June 2010)

Soaking it for any time will wash out some of the sugar, and therfore supposedly the calories.  The problem is that the water is very toxic, in fact some vets will tell you it is like raw sewage.  You ought not to let the other horses drink the water and you ought to use clean water each time.


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## now_loves_mares (29 June 2010)

I do use clean water each time, don't worry. Not sure why it would be toxic but would be interested to know. My other horse just stuck her head in the bucket before I'd emptied it one day, but it's not a regular thing so she should be fine 


Raw sewage hmm - maybe not on the plants then! Though the question then is, if the hay has been sitting in it for hours, does that not also mean it's covered in this toxic liquid?


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## martlin (29 June 2010)

4 hours is better than 2, obviously - 12 would be ideal. I soak for 12 hours then drain and rinse with clean water.
Presumably, as the soaking washes out all the sugars, the soaking water is sweet, no?
I have to say I haven't heard about it being toxic though...


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## touchstone (29 June 2010)

The waste water is classed as a pollutant because it contains nitrates, the water will be sweet because hopefully the sugar from the hay is in there, although it soon starts fermenting, maybe hay beer is the way to go?


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## now_loves_mares (29 June 2010)

ha ha that sounds like something out of River Cottage. They made beer from carrots and pine needles last week, yummmm.

So if it's full of nitrates, that seems to me to be what you get when you make nettle tea so maybe I should put it on my plants after all


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## potty_4_piebalds (29 June 2010)

I have got a mini shetland prone to lami. I was soaking her hay for an hour then I got told to soak it for 12 hours so I done that then in the vets one day I over heard a conversation between a vet and client talking about soaking hay and the vet said for weight lose just 20 mins will do the job? so I questioned this and said I was soaking for 12 hours and he asked if my mare had a respiratory problem so I said no lami and he said 20 mins is finen to remove all the sugars. but I do think the longer you can soak it the better I just fill a hay net and leave it in soak some times it could be there 24 hours before i use it.


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## PucciNPoni (30 June 2010)

potty_4_piebalds said:



			I have got a mini shetland prone to lami. I was soaking her hay for an hour then I got told to soak it for 12 hours so I done that then in the vets one day I over heard a conversation between a vet and client talking about soaking hay and the vet said for weight lose just 20 mins will do the job? so I questioned this and said I was soaking for 12 hours and he asked if my mare had a respiratory problem so I said no lami and he said 20 mins is finen to remove all the sugars. but I do think the longer you can soak it the better I just fill a hay net and leave it in soak some times it could be there 24 hours before i use it.
		
Click to expand...

I think the vet may have been confusing the two?!  I have read that soaking for around thirty minutes for the purpose of de-dusting (oooh, new term!) hay.  But for the purpose of lowering the sugar and starch intake on hay for lami/weight reduction, 12 to 24 hours is necessary.  

As for the water being toxic...had never heard that and I'm not sure why that would be?  Ok, as for the nitrate bit...how are nitrates toxic/polluting?  I'm genuinely curious cos I don't know.  

I'm a minger then...cos I tend to re-use the water couple of times, but I always give the net a seriously good rinse before feeding.  I think I'm doing it to save water, but I probably use as much water rinsing/hosing the net as I would to just re-fill the bucket...


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## PucciNPoni (30 June 2010)

http://www.nitrate.com/nitrate1.htm

Do'h!  And now I know.  

But I'm still curious....how do nitrates become effective on the water from soaking and not on the hay?  I know I'm not making sense with this question -but I'm assuming that the nitrates -- if they are in the water that they'd be on the hay itself prior to soaking?  I'm clueless in chemistry, so would really like to know!


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## now_loves_mares (30 June 2010)

Oh dear I'm not sure I'm any the wiser! I too am confused as to why, in that case, the soaked hay itself isn't harmful


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## touchstone (30 June 2010)

This article might help to explain a little more:-

http://www.extension.iastate.edu/ag/drought/NitrateToxicity.pdf

and here:-

October 15, 2009

By Dr Cynthia Gaskill

Nitrate and nitrite poisoning is not common in horses. However, due to serious and potentially fatal consequences of nitrate/nitrite poisoning, horse owners should be aware of the condition and understand the risk factors.

Nitrate/nitrite poisoning in animals is caused by ingestion of excessive amounts of nitrate or nitrite from forages or weeds, nitrate-containing fertilisers, or contaminated water.

Ingestion of large amounts of nitrate can cause gastrointestinal irritation, colic, and diarrhoea, but the most important consequence is the conversion of nitrate to the more toxic nitrite anion by gastrointestinal microorganisms.

Nitrite is absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract into the blood, causing injury to red blood cells and resulting in the inability of red cells to carry oxygen.

Clinical signs may include difficulty breathing, weakness, tremors, ataxia, rapid heartbeat, grey/blue or brown discolouration of blood and tissues, seizures, and rapid death.

Abortion can occur in animals that survive the initial clinical signs.

While nitrate/nitrite poisoning can occur in any species, ruminants are most susceptible, due to efficient conversion of nitrate to nitrite in the rumen.

Non-ruminant species such as horses are much less commonly affected because they do not readily convert nitrate to the more toxic nitrite.

Conversion of nitrate to nitrite occurs primarily in the large bowel in horses and is roughly one-fourth as efficient as ruminal conversion in cattle.

Hence, compared to ruminants, a much larger dosage of nitrate is required to cause clinical signs in horses. However, horses are very sensitive to nitrite.

Ingestion of nitrite can occur when nitrates in forages or water have been converted to nitrite by environmental microbes prior to ingestion.

Documented cases of nitrate poisoning in horses are rare. Most cases involve ingestion of nitrate/nitrite-contaminated water, nitrate fertilizer directly, or forage or hay grown in the area of a previous fertiliser spill.

A few cases in horses have occurred from ingestion of high-nitrate hay that was baled wet or became wet after baling. Nitrate was converted to nitrite by microorganisms in the hay, resulting in direct nitrite ingestion.

Only a few experimental studies have been published documenting effects of administration of high concentrations of nitrate to horses. No studies have been published that determine the amount of nitrate that horses can safely tolerate.

However, studies suggest that horses, including pregnant mares, can tolerate considerably more dietary nitrate than can cattle.

Chronic exposure to lower levels of nitrate has not been well researched in horses. Associations between chronic nitrate exposure and infertility, poor growth, hypothyroidism, and other disorders have been claimed, but none have been experimentally reproduced in horses, and much work remains to be done.

A small amount of nitrate is normally found in all animals, including horses, as nitrate is a normal component of the plants they eat. Many factors can increase the risk of excessive nitrate accumulation in plants, including species of plant, stage of growth, fertilisation practices, plant stress (drought, frost, hail, herbicide use), and many other factors.

Nitrate accumulates primarily in plant stalks, less in leaves, and not in grains or fruits.

Many important crop plants can accumulate nitrates, including oat plants, sorghum/sudan, and alfalfa (lucerne). Nitrate-accumulating weeds include ragweeds, pigweed, and Johnson grass, to name just a few.

Although high-nitrate forages and weeds pose significant risks to ruminants, horses are rarely poisoned by these plants unless they have been grown on sites of previous fertiliser spills or nitrates have been converted to nitrite by environmental microbes.

Treatment of affected animals is possible, but timing is critical, as animals can die very quickly. Prevention is key, and for horses includes the following:

* Ensure that fertilisers are used as directed and stored safely away from animals.

* Thoroughly clean up any spills.

* Do not apply excessive fertiliser to pasture or hay fields.

* Never use tanks that previously contained fertiliser to haul water, even if tanks have been washed.

* Do not bale hay when it is too wet or allow hay to become wet during storage.

* Do not feed mouldy or wet hay.



I think the soaked hay should be fine as the nitrates have been leached out into the water.  Eta - it seems that it is the conversion of nitrates into nitrites that is damaging and I would imagine that the soaking water has the right environmental bacteria to start this process, as would soaked wet hay that was left hanging around for days instead of getting used.


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## Amymay (30 June 2010)

Depending on how long she's in for - simply don't give her any hay.


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## now_loves_mares (30 June 2010)

Amymay - not surprisingly that is what I do, if she's only in for an hour or two. But not all day when I'm at work. My OP did say she gets soaked hay if "stood in", which to me means for an extended period of time, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Touchstone - thanks for all the information, that can be my bedtime reading.


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## Madcow (1 July 2010)

I think the reference to being like raw sewage refers to the BOD (biological oxygen demand) of the resultant "effluent" caused by soaking hay...therefore the hay itself is fine but you must be careful where you tip the water.


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## Minxie (1 July 2010)

You might want to check this out.

Its research by the British Equine Veterinary Association about the effectiveness of hay soaking.  Its pretty interesting although it is only a summary of the findings.  You could probably find more info from the British Equine Veterinary Association themselves.

 http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2010/03/172.shtml


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## now_loves_mares (1 July 2010)

Crikey nothing's easy is it! 

That talks about reducing carbohydrate levels for laminitics. My mare isn't laminitic (touchwood) just too fat. Not sure if by default, reducing sugar reduces calories too


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## PucciNPoni (2 July 2010)

NLM:  as far as I'm aware, it's the same principal for either fat or laminitic.  I phoned a feed company helpline to get advice on dieting down a very fat horse that I'd just acquired. They advised me to soak the hay for12-24 hours, as you would a laminitic.  And as my boy is food obsessive, I can't really leave him without for too long.  So when he's in, he's always got a bucket of low calorie / low sugar/starch chaff and a soaked and double netted and weighed ration of hay.  It must be working - I got him at the end of march and he's lost 60 kg since then.  He's taped weekly and worked 5-6x a week (gradually increasing the intensity over time as he'd been out of work so long).


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