# Bare foot horse and laminitis.



## stencilface (26 June 2017)

How much of a failure is it to shoe? 

I just can't seem to keep him sound. Going to completely remove from the grass for a few days which I've been doing on and off for months but never seem to get anywhere. Then going to shoe if he's still not comfortable. Feel like both our lives are miserable at the moment!

I just want to ride! Is that so selfish?


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## Nugget La Poneh (26 June 2017)

Hoofboots?


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## ester (26 June 2017)

Of course there are shoeing options too you don't have to stick with just the big standard stuff  if I were you I would look into that, for instance these would keep his heels working http://www.equinefootclinic.co.uk/Collapsed_Heels.html
Easyshoe etc would do similar


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## JillA (26 June 2017)

Have you identified the underlying cause? Usually metabolic rather than simply obesity (chicken and egg, metabolic overweight or overweight causing metabolic issues??) And what did xrays reveal?


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## Crugeran Celt (26 June 2017)

My cob never had laminitis but it took at least two years for him to become fully sound barefoot.


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## stencilface (26 June 2017)

No xrays in the last year. He's not overweight, no crest and I can see and feel ribs. He does get a puffy sheath (which everyone looks nonplussed at but i have read its a sign of EMS?) and sometimes gets sensitivity on his flanks. 

He's had his cavallos on overnight, but now he's out in a bare paddock he can have them on tomorrow  (providing the rain doesn't make it too slippy, although the rain will obviousky make the going more comfortable)

I'll have a look at shoe options, vet suggested heartbars - I still have the last set from his ddft in 2016. Sigh.


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## stencilface (26 June 2017)

Supplements currently are
Linseed
Probalance
Salt
Magnesium 

Fed with high fibre nuts. Some protexin will arrive this week.


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## Casey76 (27 June 2017)

Have you tried EVA pads in the boots?

Blitz wears his for 12 hours a day (for turnout, I take them off at night); and from Friday afternoon until Monday morning (all weekend turnout) without any rubbing or slipping.  I do pack his feet (especially around the frogs) with DE to soak up any sweat and to stop thrush from taking hold.

How's your trim? long toes can exacerbate any problems by causing leverage issues.


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## amandaco2 (27 June 2017)

I did similar.
mare had laminitis once confirmed by xray (mild) 4 yrs ago.
very thin soles, sensitive on rough ground. hoof boots rubbed, didn't grip, were a pain in the ass and she wasn't that comfy with them.
feet trimmed every 5 weeks so not over long toes.
fed restricted grass, hay and worked daily. feed wise was on a tiny bit of copra with pro balance.
I shod her as she was just not comfy and she is a different horse. 
the perpetually sore back (despite well fitting tack and appropriate weight rider!) disappeared, she strides out confidently and is very happy.
she gets shod every 5 weeks.
shes fed on pure working (only as hard to source copra!), salt and she gets worked every day.
shes in a pen during the day with hay and out on restricted grass overnight.
she does have a large event line since the shoes went on about 2 months ago of very tight growth but she was working a lot harder in shoes v boots as she is a comfy horse. shes also lost weight as ive been able to work her- condition score of 2.8 /5 vrs 3.2 /5 

I too felt like a failure as id shod her but seeing her so happy is just amazing.

I also had to shoe one of my other mares as she was slipping a lot BF and I am doing some ODE this year. she is happy in her shoes also and on similar management to my laminitic, except shes not penned during the daytime.
and my ex hunter was not happy on his fronts, needed work to get weight off him so shod in front.
the 4yo is still unshod.

I plan to take off all shoes in sept/nov for 2-3 months and try to keep them off but I wont hesitate to re-shoe if needed.

some horses in some circumstances cannot be comfy or safe worked BF.......


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## ester (27 June 2017)

That is true amanda but this horse has other diagnoses including navicular which need consideration too. I'm all up for additional comfort but it also needs some future proofing/don't just want to cause other issues.


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## amandaco2 (27 June 2017)

oh right, didn't say anything about navicular in post...

if its metabolic then working him hard in shoes or boots for comfort may mean they can be removed fairly quickly?

boots didn't work for my girl and the hunters feet are too huge to fit anything i've tried.....
(none of my horses have any diagnosis of health issues other than the one laminitis episode mentioned in my reply)


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## Scarlett (28 June 2017)

If the grass is causing him LGL then I would look into hind gut acidosis and try feeding Equishure.

We are now 3 years lami free - whoop - and he has fab, rock crunching feet all year round (big Tb who does a bit of everything)

It was a lifesaver for him as he'd actually gotten quite poorly, and I've personally seen it work for a wide variation of horses in varying situations.


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## stencilface (28 June 2017)

Well I can be positive for once! No more slightly panicked posts I promise, at least not this week.

Norman is sound after 2 days of no grass. Pulses went yesterday, and I've just lunged him and he's positively spritely (ok well less so ok his right rein but that's another issue!). The rain may have helped  

He's comfortable on the concrete and also on the stones to our arena. I've turned him out, but will bring him in after 2 hours. He's doesn't seem to eat much of the hay, and He seems slimmer already so i think he needs to eat something. Hopefully can work something out, and people may learn to not just let him on a new field.

It must be metabolic more than concussive surely? Bruising wouldn't heal this quickly. 

Protexin in the feed from tonight so hooe fully that will help with my grass.


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## stencilface (28 June 2017)

Thanks to everyone btw, sorry for not mentioning the ddft damage, I feel like a broken record.

Is equisure the same as protexin? Will Google.


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## ester (28 June 2017)

Good!


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## Scarlett (28 June 2017)

stencilface said:



			Thanks to everyone btw, sorry for not mentioning the ddft damage, I feel like a broken record.

Is equisure the same as protexin? Will Google. 

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Equishure is specifically for hind gut acidosis whereas protexin is a gut balancer - unfortunately there's nothing else out there that does what Equishure does, it's quite specific!

Mine can now go out and stay on grass and be a relatively normal horse. I stopped equishure and he instantly had issues again - it affects more than just the feet - so he stays on it. I have another horse who only needs it when she is struggling on the grass. I added it to her feed 3 days ago and she is already sound again


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## stencilface (28 June 2017)

Well I'll see if the protexin works, it was trimmer recommended  (but I have the gut balancer not the acid ease) if it doesn't do anything I'll try equishure


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## stencilface (10 July 2017)

Just waking this post up again as he was sore over the weekend. Please tell me this is likely related to the sun and the grass? He's on a regime of out during the day and on a bare paddock at night as it seemed to work as I realised our 'days are much shorter so this way he gets 6-7 hours of grass instead if 18.

He does have clear rings on his feet from this year so clearly is getting lami.

The protexin does seem to have formed everything up but clearly not stopped footiness so might have to try the equishure. He was grumpy and sensitive around his flanks and belly on Saturday before he became sore, then I hacked him out and he was ok. Maybe another indicator?

Getting pressure again to shoe and I'm conflicted!


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## JillA (10 July 2017)

A very good equine vet told me years ago that even short spells on grass are bad for laminitics - they can hoover up as much in a couple of hours when they are hungry as most horses will eat in a whole day. Can you not keep him on the bare paddock with hay 24/7? 
Mine is on a 3/4 acre almost bare paddock with one other horse and a small net of hay night and morning - and isn't losing weight. When I say bare, it is grazed to the ground but there are shoots for them to nibble at and it is hard not to realise that they are eating grass as it comes through, rather than having nothing to eat.


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## stencilface (10 July 2017)

I know, but if I pen him in with just hay he really loses weight, my current regime worked for at least a week :rolleyes3:

The vet said that, and I know he doesn't lift his head much, but my vets suggestion was to muzzle. But he just looks miserable in a muzzle and also becomes impossible to catch. He prefers being off totally as then he gets treats. Lami friendly! He'll be moving onto a thin strip this week as the herd are moving and he'll stress if he's not nearby. So it will be a small track really, that he will be muzzled on for the first few days.


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## Boulty (10 July 2017)

I think the recent weather has done something to the grass, yes as mine is more footy this week than he's been at any point this year.  (dammit!) In an ideal world I'd replace the grazing muzzle that I removed last month and restrict grazing area and time on the grass. In the real world the reason I removed the muzzle is because the grass was too short for my poor doer pony to get enough of it through the muzzle to prevent weight loss and as not my yard I can't go shutting random fields off.  So instead I've resorted to the pony must come off grass earlier in the morning and go back onto it later at night (didn't help that Sat he went out a tad earlier than normal (still after 5pm) and then Sunday I was knackered from being out til just after 1am and not actually getting to sleep til 2 so he was considerably later coming in compared to normal) and I've re-started to sodium bicarb that I stopped a while ago as I kept forgetting to buy some as sometimes this seems to help.  Pony turns into an escape artist if separated from his friends in his own paddock (even with a friend or two) which rather limits my management options     Anyhow just wanted to say I wanted to blooming throw myself (or him!) off the barn roof at times last Spring as was really struggling with his feet, he kept escaping from the beautiful grass free "track" that I lovingly fenced off and put him in with a friend (complete with special bought just for him haylage), he wouldn't eat his feeds with all his foot stuff in and was just generally being nightmarish!  Up til this last week he's been a LOT better this year (and I suspect some of the reason he wasn't great yesterday is down to my lie in... I forget sometimes that I'm not allowed them in Summer!)  From what you say it sounds like the grass is playing at least some part (In which case just keep thinking that in a few short months it will start to die and turn to mud!) and tbh the inflammation will still be happening if you DO shoe him but you just won't know about it until a lot further down the line when serious damage may have occurred.  If you can get through this Summer then every one that comes after will hopefully be just a little bit better, honest!


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## stencilface (11 July 2017)

Thanks. I'm going to see if I can last a bit longer, hopefully he'll be happy this morning, put his boots on yesterday at 4pm when I took him off the grass. After he ran away to avoid capture the first time. The rain will at least make his feet more comfortable. Two weeks ago I posted that he was happy so it just has to be the grass. 

Also had the same issue with a muzzle, he can't really get anything so looks more miserable than ever.

The farrier is coming tomorrow so I'll ask him about stick on shoes, the thought of nailing through sore feet makes me wince. I'm hoping Steve might be down at the end of July, is he visiting Prince then? Then i can cope better!


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## JillA (11 July 2017)

Can you strip graze him in some format -  have a small track or even a corner of a field and move the electric fence into the longer grass daily. You can give him a daily allowance that keeps his weight constant but doesn't affect his blood pressure/feet. I couldn't let mine have free access to normal length grass, even for half an hour, he would cripple himself but when I am grazing off his paddock that works well to limit him


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## stencilface (11 July 2017)

That's what I'm going to set up this afternoon hopefully, add a strip to his current small paddock (0.1 acre maybe?). Then I'll put my fat pony in with him for company. Unfortunately someone has read a book on grass management and read up on horsesick pasture now keeps moving them to fresh grass every 2 weeks so the horses are huge. 

Also got a comment that he just struggles as he has typical TB feet. Gah!


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## ester (11 July 2017)

What muzzle are you using SF and is he just being hopeless with it. 
F has his on when the fence moves so his field mate eats most he then gets it off later to eat the rougher bits. The rest of the paddock is really short so they also have hay out and he eats hay through his muzzle pretty easily too. 
Essentially their stripping is now standing hay (and although there was some other research someone put up the other week about the sugars being better on constantly topped grass I am unconvinced and prefer my standing hay )

If he loses weight off the grass is it really daft to suggest he is fed more other stuff?


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## stencilface (11 July 2017)

No it's not, I was just cottoning on to feeding more hardfeed as he leaves the hay, it was back onto winter rations with oats.

He has a shires bucket muzzle with a hole in the bottom which he hates, and a dinky muzzle which he hates less. I don't mind using them for a few days but after that it's just miserable for us both. He's grumpy because he wears a muzzle and I am because I can't catch the beggar! 

Seemingly anything other than 24/7 turnout is hard to grasp round here, unless it's stabling through the winter (which I no longer do). I'll have a chat to the farrier tomorrow to appease but I'm not hopeful, he can be difficult!


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## Boulty (11 July 2017)

Not currently planning on tagging onto this visit with Steve, I normally roughly average every 3 months or so (unless I have a crisis / he can't fit me in) so I'm probably aiming for end of August / start of September.  In some ways if I'd had the forethought to ask it may have been useful to get his opinion on if he's moving straighter behind since physio (I think that he is) but I'll be getting vet to have a lookie when they're next out  anyway(which should be within the next month) 

The odd thing with Prince and muzzles is that he doesn't mind it being put on per se (he has a go at rubbing it and he has removed them before but he's not miserable with it) but the grass seems to need to be a couple of inches long for him to be able to eat enough through it to not start dropping weight. (I only ever apply Mr Muzzle when he's still in the stable just before turnout and spent many many months posting treats / bits of carrot through it every time it went on to teach him to put his nose into it as he can be quite headshy)  This time last year there was still plenty of grass that length so he still had it on but I suspect due to the dry weather we've had (on other days that aren't today!) it's just not come through as well as it did last year and the majority of it's shorter than that (which of course brings its own issues!).  

In an ideal world if it was just mine to consider I'd actually be putting hay out where I am now (and I'd also be resting at least one field a bit for the end of Summer), alas not my yard and at least half the horses in the field are cobby good doers so the relative lack of grass means they aren't going to explode! 

Anyhow back to your problems rather than my little irritations... If he's not happy being muzzled and you need to keep setting up new grazing areas for him then would you be able to have a few of the greedier members of the herd go in there during the day (ie when he's in anyway) for a few days to eat it down a bit so there isn't as much grass in there for him to actually eat? (may also encourage him to eat hay as I've noticed that on topped grass when given the option mine will also nibble hay even when there is a decent amount of grazing still on the grass)  Another thing I've literally just thought of now is that if they're moving grazing areas every few weeks and he was fine up til a few weeks ago did moving fields and footiness coincide by any chance?  It could be the grass in this particular field that is the issue (may have more rye in it, have been more fertilised or some other random reason for it being higher in sugar) rather than all grass everywhere?


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## Boulty (11 July 2017)

Also sorry to hear that you've had people making silly comments!  (If he was lame in shoes before what do they expect to be different this time around?) I've been quite lucky in that even when I've been on quite a big yard I've not actually come across much open hostility. (I did once get asked if I was going to shoe him again but when I said "no" then that was that really.  I do have the added weapon that he was horrendous / dangerous to shoe anyway and I think was becoming a sedation candidate).  Current yard are fab at understanding that I have to do what I do or he gets poorly. I forewarned them before I moved on what I may need to have the scope to be able to do and they are happy for me to do pretty much whatever suits (Pity that Prince has other ideas and won't settle there for any length of time if I try to make him his own paddocks away from the herd, he tends to escape back to them so he's my main limiting factor!) plus they have seen him at his worse when I've dropped the ball  (They have also seen him at his best when he's a dot disappearing into the distance out hunting / kicking their arses at pony games!)   I seem to reach an unspoken understanding with most people that I won't tell them they need to remove their horses shoes if they don't tell me I need to put some on mine! (Unless they're having foot issues in which case I'll nudge the same info I came across their way and let them decide what they wish to do with it)


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## stencilface (12 July 2017)

Getting asked if I'll put shoes on him to fix his sore feet is something I get asked at least once a week. He's been bf since 2013. And yes it's comments like that that make me not listen to anything, ad they don't seem to have any understanding at all.

Yes, he gets worse everytime they move! And all I get is, well he wasn't sound last year. But he has more issues than just his feet. It might be that I do shoe him in the summer at some point, but I need to give it  fair go at management first. Im sure i didn't have these idsues a few years ago so think its now age related lami. Unfortunately people seem to like to manage it so their horses are obese. Seriously one looks like a Belgian blue. Yes, the cow.

That said I'm not a fan of our farrier, and the world would end if I wanted a different one. Our farrier I can't discuss anything with, it's his way or it's the wrong way.


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## JillA (12 July 2017)

stencilface said:



			. Im sure i didn't have these issues a few years ago so think its now age related lami.
		
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Or PPID. Have you had him tested for Cushings? The free test offer is still available for first time tests


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## stencilface (12 July 2017)

JillA said:



			Or PPID. Have you had him tested for Cushings? The free test offer is still available for first time tests
		
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Yes, in April score of 16.


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## ycbm (12 July 2017)

This is a theory which I have held for a long time now and would like to see research on.

I believe that horses without shoes will get laminitis earlier than those with shoes, and that laminitic horses are easier to control in shoes.

I believe that this is because the blood supply to the foot is reduced by shoes. The laminae are attacked by toxins in the blood. If there is less blood, then there is less toxin. 

For that reason, if the horse can tolerate shoes without it causing other issues, I can see a role for shoes in laminitis prevention.

Perhaps the answer in SF's case is to shoe for the spring/summer/early autumn and let the feet recover in winter?


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## stencilface (12 July 2017)

Ok, I do see that yes, they would definitely be less affected. But how do I stand now with putting shoes on sore feet? Although hopefully they won't be sore this morning! I winced the last time he was shod 

I feel I need to wait a couple of weeks and discuss it with my trimmer, who will help with his feet. I can't discuss it with the farrier.  I'm clearly struggling!


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## ycbm (12 July 2017)

stencilface said:



			Ok, I do see that yes, they would definitely be less affected. But how do I stand now with putting shoes on sore feet? Although hopefully they won't be sore this morning! I winced the last time he was shod 

I feel I need to wait a couple of weeks and discuss it with my trimmer, who will help with his feet. I can't discuss it with the farrier.  I'm clearly struggling!
		
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I haven't checked back to see if there's any reason why you can't, but perhaps bute?

Fingers crossed for you that he's not sore this morning.


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## JillA (12 July 2017)

The problem with shoeing when laminae are already compromised is peripheral loading. If the laminae aren't strong enough to hold the walls in place sufficiently to bear the weight of the horse, you are likely to get a breakdown and movement of the pedal bone. Maybe once the laminae are fully healed and the walls are good and strong but until then I would want to see the sole, heels and frog taking as much of the weight as possible - maybe with pads in boots. The key phrase in ycbm's post is PREVENTION, not rehabilitation
Have they researched this question on The Laminitis Site - might be worth asking, they are pretty much up to speed on all the current research


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## ycbm (12 July 2017)

JillA said:



			The problem with shoeing when laminae are already compromised is peripheral loading. If the laminae aren't strong enough to hold the walls in place sufficiently to bear the weight of the horse, you are likely to get a breakdown and movement of the pedal bone. Maybe once the laminae are fully healed and the walls are good and strong but until then I would want to see the sole, heels and frog taking as much of the weight as possible - maybe with pads in boots. The key phrase in ycbm's post is PREVENTION, not rehabilitation
Have they researched this question on The Laminitis Site - might be worth asking, they are pretty much up to speed on all the current research
		
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You're right, of course, I forgot the peripheral loading when I suggested bute. I was assuming the horse was only sole sore at the moment.


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## brucea (12 July 2017)

A laminitis prone/actual laminitis horse is one in shoes or out of shoes. 

Just in shoes, you'll get a lot less warning and it will be more advanced by the time you realise there is a real problem. I've had both shod and unshod with laminitis.

Shoes will not prevent laminitis, it will only prolong the time until you realise they have laminitis.  They may make a footy horse more comfortable by reducing the blood flow to the foot and taking it a little off the ground and if that's what you want then fine, but there are serious drawbacks of shoes on laminitics and I've seen more laminitic horses PTS with shoes on than barefoot frankly.

Problem with laminitis is people tend to focus on the foot - it's the most obvious thing to focus on after all - the process that causes laminitis in most horses starts as far away from the foot as it is possible to get. Focusing on the foot and not implementing a laminitis manageemnt and prevention plan will be counter productive and be in a cycle of recurring lameness

A laminitis plan should focus on providing a nutrient rich diet (fibre, fats, protien, vitamins, minerals all need considered) that is low in sugars and starches, there are many excellent feeds out there. Good quality forrage - hay, soaked if needed, haylege works well. 

Minimal grass access. If you don;t have a grass free area, the best area for a laminitic horse to be turned out for short periods is rough grazing with a wide variety of scrubby stuff, preferably under trees. It's an opporuity to bring ground that you might not otherwise consider into use. However if the horse has laminitis now, then basically take away one of the probable causes - grass.

Movement is critical once the initial crisis is over. I use boots when we need to, they work well, they support the whole sole with pads and you can asjust the pad. They're cheaper than shoes too - my pony's boots are 2 years old and still going strong, most of the time he is bare and manages but there are times of the year that he neesd his Gloves for more challenging ground.

Lastly PPID - folks need to be a little more sceptical about the ACTH test  - a high test is a confirmation, a low test is not necessarily a negative result for PPID. It really needs to be on a symptomatic view. There are up to 7 hormonal pathways involved in PPID in the horse, ACTH is only one of them (http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaep/2006/pdf/z9100106000055.pdf?hc_location=ufi if you are interested). I have a clearly PPID pony that has never had a result above 75, and as low as 20, but he's absolutely textbook case PPID. One of my cobs always comes in at 80-90 and shows no real signs of PPID apart from a lower tollerance of grass at certain times of the year

Prascend is a one trick pony really, we've used it and it did have some benefits, but I've found that other approaches are very beneficial  - e.g. using specific nervine herbs with a SSRI (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor) that impact levels of serotonin and dopamine actually give better longer term results than Prascend. Cheaper too.


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## ycbm (12 July 2017)

Shoes will not prevent laminitis, it will only prolong the time until you realise they have laminitis.
		
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Bruce I agree with your entire post (and was fascinated by the last bit, thank you for that)  except the quote.  If there is a trigger point for the amount of toxin per minute that will give a horse laminitis, and you can reduce the blood supply so that trigger point is not reached, then the horse will not get laminitis. 

For horses which are exceptionally difficult to manage, shoes might possibly be the difference between life and death. Though of course it takes no account of what those toxins might be doing to the rest of the body.

I sometimes think we make people feel too guilty about shoeing a horse that gets sore soles.


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## brucea (12 July 2017)

It's back to the old argument about peripheral support (Bob Bowker's argument)

And I think your argument on the shoes "lowering the trigger point" is kind of a dangerous one. I don;t think there is a trigger point, it'll be different for every horse. I think the trigger point is when the pain becomes unbearable for the horse - that point seems to be a little further down the line in a shod horse, but the damage to the laminae has been done. I don;t believe a shoe prevents that damege, just how well the horse tolerates that damage

I've said before that the first symptoms of laminitis are behavioural - not int he feet. A lowered patience for interference (grooming, touching),  a lower frustration tolerance, changing relationship in the herd, suddenly snapping or tail swishing wiht ears back - every time I have seen laminitis I have always seen behavioural changes before any unsoundness even becomes apparent. Sadly that's often a 20;20 hindsight kind of thing.

Think about having mild toothache and having someone bothering you constantly


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## stencilface (12 July 2017)

Thankyou for all your input. Bruce - he's had the sensitivity for the last couple of years on and off, and had it badly on the weekend when he was footy. He's now happier with no pulses and is sounder. I can see something else is going on with his back-end at the moment, something I think deteriorated with less work. Less of the right work at least! 

Our farrier doesnt do stick on shoes, so I didn't continue the discussion further, as no other option was added or raised. 

I'm away tomorrow for a week, of course I am, so I'm hoping he'll stay manageable whilst I'm away. Using the tools of grass restriction and booting if he becomes sore.


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## ester (12 July 2017)

Ok so with a bit more pondering I think you either keep him off the grass and feed him (or at least when the app says to), and/or try him with a greenguard if the app says it isn't too bad- they aren't my favourite but it does allow them to eat more than the other types. 
Someone above suggested shoeing for the summer, I think I said similar on pm the other day and I do think that might be the best option if this is a continually repeating blip/it becomes a welfare issue. BUT with lots of thought as to what shoes to use as we know that his heels want to splat at the soonest opportunity!


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## stencilface (12 July 2017)

Thanks, yes I do need to look at shoes, I'll spend my holiday pondering the best and consider new farrier who might have wider shoe options.

I looked at the greenguard muzzles but was reluctant to spend that much on something I might not use if it makes him miserable. Again something to have another look at and add to my useless equipment bank! 

I really appreciate everyone's input and I am taking it all on board its just so hard to make decisions when everytime I feel like it will end up being the wrong one. Thankyou for putting up with me and my splatty hooved non fat lami beastie.


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## ester (12 July 2017)

that is what ebay is for silly  and preloved  what size would he be? 

I think the fact that your farrier won't consider anything but a nail on is quite telling (not that we didn't know quite how old school previously either) 

I would do some farrier contacts but also perhaps some of the composite manufacturers to see 1) if they think it would work given what we know about his feet and 2) if they have any recommended farriers in your area. For instance I am sure those on here that have contacted Andrew at imprint previously have found him very useful. Not cheap obviously but I am fairly sure that is Norman's task in life as he sees, a heady mix of expense and worry


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## Casey76 (12 July 2017)

You could also try the easyboot shells/glue ons?  they are very modifiable to individual feet  of you can heat them up a bit.  There is a section at the back of this article from Pete Ramey: http://www.hoofrehab.com/Glove Mods.pdf


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## brucea (12 July 2017)

stencilface said:



			Thanks, yes I do need to look at shoes, I'll spend my holiday pondering the best and consider new farrier who might have wider shoe options.

I looked at the greenguard muzzles but was reluctant to spend that much on something I might not use if it makes him miserable. Again something to have another look at and add to my useless equipment bank! 

I really appreciate everyone's input and I am taking it all on board its just so hard to make decisions when everytime I feel like it will end up being the wrong one. Thankyou for putting up with me and my splatty hooved non fat lami beastie.
		
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It's not easy. There are no "always right" answers, there ois only the "right answer for your horse" and despite the wealth of well meant dogma out there you really have to experiment and find it for yourself.


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## brucea (12 July 2017)

stencilface said:



			Thankyou for all your input. Bruce - he's had the sensitivity for the last couple of years on and off, and had it badly on the weekend when he was footy. He's now happier with no pulses and is sounder. I can see something else is going on with his back-end at the moment, something I think deteriorated with less work. Less of the right work at least! 

Our farrier doesnt do stick on shoes, so I didn't continue the discussion further, as no other option was added or raised. 

I'm away tomorrow for a week, of course I am, so I'm hoping he'll stay manageable whilst I'm away. Using the tools of grass restriction and booting if he becomes sore.
		
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It may well be that his hindgut is uncomfortable (quite possibly if he has laminitis) so that may account for a "not quite right" on the back end

Interestingly my little lad Bramble has very white skin round his plug hole - he gets quite inflamed around there when he has a laminitic episode (and he is not on grass at all - he's one of these that has a problem when the length of day starts to change) Obviously his poo itrritates him at that time

Linseed is good, as is slippery elm and other mucilage at soothign the gut


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## Lovethebeach (12 July 2017)

To use the sole and frog but wear a shoe have a look at Duplo's, you can buy yourself and get farrier to fit. After 15 years barefoot my old mare was suffering from thinning soles and these gave her another 4 years of comfort and happy hacking. Hoof and frogs stayed in excellent condition.


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## Boulty (12 July 2017)

Brucea you have succeeded in fascinating me and making me think (which are both rather rare occurrences at this time of night!)  Out of interest what herbs is it that you're suggesting for PPID?  Mine is mostly stable on Prascend at the moment (but does still have episodes of footiness in Spring / Summer related to grass) and I don't believe in rocking the boat if I don't need to (tried it before with other issues and then wished that I hadn't!)  but good to have options should this not continue to be the case.  Also interesting re impending Laminitis and behavioural changes.  Prince is a professional grumpy sod anyway and coping with frustration has never been something he's been all that capable of even when totally fine so it can sometimes be difficult to decipher which behaviours are just his personality and which actually mean something but thinking about it yes I HAVE noticed changes in behaviour / odd behaviour / agitation prior to episodes of footiness, the worse of which occurred last Spring (was very close to getting vet to investigate some of it) right before he became bad enough to require complete removal from grass for several months.

Have also had a random thought re the laminitis debate... Would impaired circulation affect toxin removal as well as toxin exposure? (In which case would that cancel out any benefit of reducing circulation to the feet?)


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## ester (12 July 2017)

If you are worrying reducting circulation to the feet is a problem you are thinking that the toxin theory is that toxin is getting stuck in the feet?  that isn't how I had understood it, more of a whole body imbalance situation as a result.


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## ycbm (12 July 2017)

Have also had a random thought re the laminitis debate... Would impaired circulation affect toxin removal as well as toxin exposure? (In which case would that cancel out any benefit of reducing circulation to the feet?)
		
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Good question. 

My understanding is that laminitis is caused by toxins delivered in the blood. It's the reduction of the volume delivered that I think has an effect.  If the disease itself is creating toxins, then yes fewer of those would be removed. But if you can stop it happening in the first place, then reduced removal of toxins isn't an issue.


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## Goldenstar (12 July 2017)

The last time I had a horse with laminitis she was shod on the day after the onset of the attack .
You could see her relief and she was so sore I thought we would have to shoot her .
But in shoes she was instantly mildly lame having been unwilling to move .
She did well and lived another ten years her lami was shock induced after her got caught in a gate .
I would be worried about your farrier is he really good if he isn't going to balance the foot well it's not going to help .


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## stencilface (13 July 2017)

I just wrong a long reply and it got deleted!

Ester you are right about my horses purpose in life, it's mainly worry with 2% enjoyment! I'll look into second hand on the muzzles. I'll contact the shoe people and probably the laminitis site too.

Casey and lovethebeach thanks for the shoe suggestions I'll have a look at those too.

Bruce, that's interesting, I clearly haven't spent long enough looking at his bum! The protexin doesn't seem to be having a dramatic improvement, although I think is helping. I'm going to get some equishure wheb I get back. He's quite good at self medicating I think, picks cleavers etc given the chance.

Goldenstar I uses to think our farrier was very good, his feet always looked neat and shoes stayed on. Since I've entered the murky world of barefoot I understand how much he misses so I do question stuff, which I'm not sure he likes!  we never had issues with feet until my horse, and he's been doing our horses for 30+ years so he's not terrible, just I think I need a more rounded approach now.


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## Scarlett (13 July 2017)

Honestly I know I prattle on about it but try Equishure - it stops the issues starting in the gut in the first place, thus no toxins in the blood to cause the inflammation. We are over nearly 3 years lami free, and he's out 24/7. I also have my mare on it through grass flushes as she gets footy and she is rock crunchingly sound again  I know of plenty of other horse in the exact same situation who are managed on it too.


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## stencilface (13 July 2017)

I'm on it Scarlett! Try anything


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## Tiddlypom (13 July 2017)

Scarlett said:



			Honestly I know I prattle on about it but try Equishure - it stops the issues starting in the gut in the first place, thus no toxins in the blood to cause the inflammation. We are over nearly 3 years lami free, and he's out 24/7. I also have my mare on it through grass flushes as she gets footy and she is rock crunchingly sound again  I know of plenty of other horse in the exact same situation who are managed on it too.
		
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How much does it cost to keep a horse on a maintenance level of Equishure? I did consider trialling it once on another horse, but was :eek3: at the price of a non POM supplement.


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## Scarlett (13 July 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			How much does it cost to keep a horse on a maintenance level of Equishure? I did consider trialling it once on another horse, but was :eek3: at the price of a non POM supplement.
		
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If I buy the biggest tub - 7.2kg at around £170.00 - it lasts me 4 months and works out £42 ish a month feedin g 60g a day. During times with little grass I can eek that out a bit longer but feeding a bit less. 

It's expensive but the difference it's made has been huge. My big gelding was on the verge of being PTS with Inflamation of the hind gut, he was stick thin, laminitic and lame behind. Within 3 days I saw improvement, more within a week and he's been a big, healthy good doer since. He's TB, still barefoot and has fantastic feet. I've tried taking him off it and he gets crooked and uncomfortable so I have just decided to keep it going. My mare isn't as bad but does get very footy on the lush grass and crooked going right, both of which it sorts out in a few days. I've tried a million other cheaper things but always regret it and end up back on it....


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## paddy555 (13 July 2017)

I have used equishure which was very expensive on a long term basis. It helped a horse who had a hind gut problem and you could see the problem gut wise. Feet wise it made no difference, he was sound over anything barefoot both before and afterwards. The gut problem didn't affect his feet. 
Skimming through this thread I haven't seen any comments concerning the trimming of the feet. That is the first place I would look. I remember your horse going to Rockley but I cannot remember if he is farrier trimmed, self trimming or what. I would be looking at the stage of the trimming cycle when he was foot sore, how the actual foot was and whether he was over trimmed or more especially under trimmed. 
Having been convinced for years that grass fields were a good part of the problem I now wonder how much both the trim and structure of the foot are responsible when grass is blamed. I have 10. Nine are out on grass 24/7 (except for coming in for feeds) and are sound.  The only one with restricted grass is PPID.


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## stencilface (13 July 2017)

His feet were trimmed 6 or so weeks ago, and trimmer is back out again in 2 weeks, so I don't think it's that.

I will trial the equishure, maybe can get away with it in the worse months. Your horse does sound like mine, thin, laminitic and lame behind! He's not thin so much anymore but if he's off grass he just doesn't eat enough hay to stay in nicer condition.

Need to do a forage analysis to as my horses food is mostly supplements these days!


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## paddy555 (13 July 2017)

stencilface said:



			His feet were trimmed 6 or so weeks ago, and trimmer is back out again in 2 weeks, so I don't think it's that.
		
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I wasn't meaning had the trimmer over trimmed the week before but how he was actually trimmed and if the structure of his foot or indeed the actual trim were  not helping. Diet is always blamed but sometimes I wonder if the trimming is equally the problem.


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## ester (13 July 2017)

paddy it is worth saying because I think it important that he was mostly self trimming but when the work reduced earlier this year his heels started to under run again on pictures (at which point I did suggest that if he couldn't be putting the mileage on some judicious trimming might encourage them not to get so excited about disappearing). 
I think he is a tricky horse, who has plenty going on physically even outwith the probable grass sensitivity he seems to have so I think he is terribly tricky to manage/balance his separate needs for his attached bits.


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## paddy555 (13 July 2017)

ester said:



			paddy it is worth saying because I think it important that he was mostly self trimming but when the work reduced earlier this year his heels started to under run again on pictures (at which point I did suggest that if he couldn't be putting the mileage on some judicious trimming might encourage them not to get so excited about disappearing). 
I think he is a tricky horse, who has plenty going on physically even outwith the probable grass sensitivity he seems to have so I think he is terribly tricky to manage/balance his separate needs for his attached bits.
		
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thanks for the info. I appreciate he has many issues. Having tried just about every way of trimming over the years including self trimming i have found that putting the best feet possible on a horse seems to help. Some of mine have been rescue pasture pets (horses not ponies) so producing feet from work has been out of the question. I have had to produce good feet by trimming. Trimming seems to have become thought of as at the very top of the pyramid ie the last thing needed but I think that using the rasp to create good feet for example getting heels back, with reasonable height and keeping them there plus short toes and no pull on the WL with a good bevel etc etc are very important. 
I can think of some horses I have had who now I would look at and wonder if they would be "grass sensitive" they were definitely the EMS sort. The were fine and sound out 24/7 in fields  until they reached a ripe old age. All of them had either good feet which were back and with height naturally or they were kept that way by me. I can think of a couple where I didn't have enough knowledge at the time and looking back now I think they would have been better if I had trimmed more effectively. 

for the horse you describe possibly bringing the heels which may well be long in the wrong orientation but low  with a long toe may create better structure at the back of the foot and your "judicious" trimming may be needed to improve the foot. 
PS I love the expression "encourage them not to get so excited about disappearing"


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## stencilface (13 July 2017)

We had horses retired and barefoot for years, with a bog standard farrier field trim with no grass restriction and no lameness until the day they died, one horse was 36! Yet now I can't even keep a 17yo sound. Perhaps I'm overthinking things,  we never used to give it any thought and they were fine lol.

I'm sure someone else could manage my horse with a lot less palaver, but when more than one variable changes at once I can't keep things going. For instance last weekend it was hot, sunny,  and the ground was hard I took him on a longer than before hack  (by about 10 mins nothing too drastic) and he goes footy. A few days later after 2 days of rain, lami risk on the app has gone down and the ground is soft so he's not footy. But all the comments I get are based on the hard ground, nothing concerning grass. Clearly the hard ground makes things worse, but I don't think it's what is causing it.


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## ester (13 July 2017)

SF no I don't think you are overthinking at all, he needs thinking! What used to bug me was that we used to work RS ponies for several hours a day in standard cottage craft girths and I could put all sorts on mine and within an hour he would have a girth gall! That was his tricky . 

I did wonder re the hard ground/grass combination and what part each plays, but well, you're too far away to equate the weather, I assume it is wetter . 

You are definitely trying your best for him, for me his frustration is I think you just think you've cracked it and then something else goes on again. 

Paddy I've never seen them in real life but I still remember SF first reporting he had a navicular diagnosis, which I was surprised about because his feet had looked quite good out of shoes (for his other issues) on her previous photos, after the dx she put some pictures up and the heels had run forwards and flattened. More recently with the reduced workload they looked to be doing the same again. 
Hypothetically I was considering that his not long home  from rockley foot would be what he needed to aim for but maybe I am wrong to think that? IME of one, we did try to improve his heels a couple of times (they weren't bad just could have come back a little more) and each time he didn't tolerate it and soon resolved so for him I only ever touched the front 2/3 of his hoof really. 

SF has anyone ever made a comment on sole depth with him over they years? is it fairly good?


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## paddy555 (14 July 2017)

ester said:



			Hypothetically I was considering that his not long home  from rockley foot would be what he needed to aim for but maybe I am wrong to think that? IME of one, we did try to improve his heels a couple of times (they weren't bad just could have come back a little more) and each time he didn't tolerate it and soon resolved so for him I only ever touched the front 2/3 of his hoof really.
		
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hypothetically (not SF's horse as I have no idea what it's feet are like or course) I don't necessarily go on the approach of letting the horse grow the foot it wants which I believe is the Rockley approach. That is because having tried it with several horses as an experiment I found it didn't work. If the toe wanted to wander off in front then I found nothing stopped it except trimming correctly. 
I live amongst feral ponies and they are totally self trimming. If their toes start wandering off forward they is nothing they can do about it, they don't correct it by self trimming. I don't think you can improve the heels by trimming them, you are at risk of making the horse sore.


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## paddy555 (14 July 2017)

stencilface said:



			We had horses retired and barefoot for years, with a bog standard farrier field trim with no grass restriction and no lameness until the day they died, one horse was 36! Yet now I can't even keep a 17yo sound. Perhaps I'm overthinking things,  we never used to give it any thought and they were fine lol.

I'm sure someone else could manage my horse with a lot less palaver, but when more than one variable changes at once I can't keep things going. For instance last weekend it was hot, sunny,  and the ground was hard I took him on a longer than before hack  (by about 10 mins nothing too drastic) and he goes footy. A few days later after 2 days of rain, lami risk on the app has gone down and the ground is soft so he's not footy. But all the comments I get are based on the hard ground, nothing concerning grass. Clearly the hard ground makes things worse, but I don't think it's what is causing it.
		
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I appreciate somewhere you said he was not cushings. I can identify totally with your comments above. You get trapped into a spiral going round in circles. I was in that spiral for about 6 years. I was sure mine was perfectly managed. He had good feet, grass totally managed and everything else you are doing. I even got Pete Ramey to trim him I was so convinced it was his feet. I could never find the variable that changed just as we seemed to be getting onto an even keel. That was between his age of 5/6 to 12 years. At 12 he tested negative twice for cushings.  One result was 11 so very negative! 

I looked at  his symptoms and got vet to put him on a prascend trial. We never looked back.The test results for him were totally out of line with his condition.  If I was in your position I  would revisit cushings and consider every single symptom. If I was convinced he was negative then I would look at the foot and (if Ester's comments are correct) work on improving it.


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## ester (14 July 2017)

thanks Paddy, SF I hope you don't find the discussion too random on  your thread. 

Fwiw Frank would never be self trimming (experimented a bit at times), he doesn't wear evenly enough because of his movement so his medial toe does wander off and do it's own thing, while his lateral toe stays short and the more that happens the more it encourages his break over to be lateral (which given his then coffin joint djd probably wrong diagnosis I was not happy with ) 
I can count on one hand the number of times he has managed to generate a chip, they are almost too tough to do so I think.


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## stencilface (14 July 2017)

Thanks both. I can't remember all the Cushing symptoms, but he does lose his coat, can still have a trial if I can't do it via equishure first. I'm hoping that could resolve his lami and hind lameness SI issues. That would be too neat a solution for my horse I think!

My only other issue is time, as in I don't have much these days. That's something that banging shoes on may help me cope, but I took him barefoot in response to other issues and thought I was doing a good thing for his health and longevity. No foot no horse and all that jazz.


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2017)

Horses often don't show the coat symptoms with Cushings .


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## paddy555 (14 July 2017)

stencilface said:



			Thanks both. I can't remember all the Cushing symptoms, but he does lose his coat, can still have a trial if I can't do it via equishure first. I'm hoping that could resolve his lami and hind lameness SI issues. That would be too neat a solution for my horse I think!

My only other issue is time, as in I don't have much these days. That's something that banging shoes on may help me cope, but I took him barefoot in response to other issues and thought I was doing a good thing for his health and longevity. No foot no horse and all that jazz.
		
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symptoms of cushings are:- (not in any order) 

more peeing and drinking.
more prone to infections, ie need antibiotics when for something a normal horse with deal with easily
eye infections
weight loss, for example mine at <500kg was eating a 44lb bale of hay a day and still losing weight
loss of muscle, loss of topline. Compare old pics with his current top line
pot bellied
for my gelding mucky, sticky smegma and more of it. When treated and under control less and much drier.

lethargy when ridden. 

coat is way down the line, best to catch it before then. 

the big one of course with cushings is laminitis. 

I would suggest anyone shoe rather than leaving a sore horse. The big BUT of course is that it may be less easy to spot the start of laminitis in shoes.


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## stencilface (14 July 2017)

Definitely a struggle with muscle and topline but could attribute that to less work.
He does get weepy eyes sometimes, but fixed with a fly mask for a day.
Lethargy certainly!
He does seem to be losing weight atm if not on grass at all.

I'll try the equishure, if Scarlett reckons it's as good as it is it should show improvement quickly. If not I'll ring the vet and re discuss the cushings test. It was his first thought instead of just lami.


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## paddy555 (15 July 2017)

stencilface said:



			If not I'll ring the vet and re discuss the cushings test. It was his first thought instead of just lami.
		
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don't forget prascend is not a quick drug to get a horse on. Many introduce it gradually and build up to a full dose over a month. Once on the full dose it  can take some several weeks to then adjust. It is not a drug whereby you give 1 tablet and have instant protection. If your ACTH test doesn't suggest the same as your clinical symptoms your vet could consider the TRH test to try and get a more definitive answer.


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