# Dreadful Handing at Arab Show



## Changes (4 October 2011)

Don't know if someone has already posted this, apologies if so.

How is this acceptable - these horses are just waiting to be hit in the face....... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW_kWUip7TQ&feature=player_embedded


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## Sheep (4 October 2011)

Seems pretty heavy handed to me.

Couldn't watch the whole thing as the music really annoyed me though!


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## fburton (4 October 2011)

Yes, there's another thread where this is being discussed, titled "Comments? (video)"...

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=487888


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2011)

That is the very worst bits from what, a three day show?  And I don't see anything there that really upsets me to be honest.

I've met quite a lot of arab folk and have been to some arab shows as I used to work for someone who sculpted them and despite the fact they're lairey in the ring they were actually totally chilled out little people in their boxes.  They seemed perfectly happy on the whole.


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## rosie fronfelen (4 October 2011)

god knows what happens behind the scenes----


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## Rose Folly (4 October 2011)

I totally agree with rosie fronfelen. Absolutely unacceptable handling. What a disgusting display of non-horsemanship. The older gentleman in the panama hat, who appeared to be a judge or steward, obviously remonstrated on two occasions. thank god he was there.

And as you say, if that's what goes on in front of the public, what goes on behind the scenes?

My late sister-in-law had an Arab stud for years. I helped her in the show-ring on occasions. All her stock, stallions, mares, geldings, were handled with gentleness and respect, and responded.

I hope this revolting video goes round the world. Perhaps some naming and shaming of those intrepid handlers would be good. Anyone from Aachen?


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## Faithkat (4 October 2011)

Hmm . . . interesting  . . .  and explains something.  I have an Arab on loan at the moment who was bred and broken in Germany (sold to the UK when she was 4).  Not much had been done with her since she came to the UK apart from being bred from although she had been backed in Germany, so I have been doing some schooling with her.  She is very, very whip shy.  As a rule I don't use a whip (I hate them) but she shies away from lunge whips and is really twitchy when you just change it from one hand to another.


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## Abbeygale (4 October 2011)

I can't open the link at the moment, but did have a look at some videos of Arabs at Malvern and at tower lands.  My boy I lost in June was pure Arab, and to be fair he would often over react if he was so in the mood to - which would include throwing his head and front end up and away from you as though he had been beaten every day arou d the face - which just never happened.  He was from showing bloodlines, but had never been handled before I had him so he had never been taught to do anything, but fpdefinitely would have reacted like a lot of the horses in the vids I saw.  

But - I have never watched any Arab showing before - what is with all the whooping and carrying on from the crowd?? And also all of them seemed to let their horses run on so much they either break to canter or are so far ahead of the handler that they have no control, and they then pull them round in a circle.  What happened to a few manners from horse and handler? If your horse trots that fast, learn to run to keep up with them so you can keep some control!!! 

I had always said that I was so pleased that my boy never ended up in a show home, he would have been an absolute nut case! The vids I saw only reaffirm this.  Such beautiful horses though, despite some of the antics that are going on!!


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## PolarSkye (4 October 2011)

And by way of a complete contrast . . . 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQdN2QCBXnE&feature=related

. . . calm, patient handling.

P


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## Amymay (4 October 2011)

jesstickle said:



			That is the very worst bits from what, a three day show?  And I don't see anything there that really upsets me to be honest.
		
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Really Jess?  You suprise me.  You always seem so opposed to animal abuse.


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## PolarSkye (4 October 2011)

Is this what they were trying to accomplish?  If so, they fell way, waaaay short of the mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3wgIP-WfRs&feature=related

Still don't like that unnatural stance, but at least the horses are encouraged into it rather than yanked around and smacked/bullied.

P


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## brown tack (4 October 2011)

The links don't work for me


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## dominobrown (4 October 2011)

I have done a lot a showing in hand (with hunters) and if the horse behaved like they would be sent out of the ring. The handlers are winding the horses up into a state, obviously hitting them across the face with a schooling whip and being overly harsh with the yanking.
If you think that this is ok, not that bad and its just 'arabs' then shame on you.


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2011)

I don't think it's 'just arabs'. I think there are plenty of much more important issues in the world than this.  The horses are all in good condition and I know for a fact the ones I have met are well cared for and I think, perhaps, we could all worry about something more important. Of all the things that are wrong with the way we treat equines this is pretty small fry.


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## welshcobnewbie (4 October 2011)

A few years back i had the "delight" of being on a yard with a young lady who showed arabs, it was a daily thing to see her either cracking  (with a whip )her ridden arab around the head because it wouldn't work in an outline, to chasing a young colt down the road backwards attempting to crack him with a schooling whip because he was bouncy to lead due to being stuck in 24/7 12 months of the year.
   I  remember her offering to ride a hunter for his owner, within ten minutes the horse had enough of being forced into an outline and being bullied so launched her.


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## Amymay (4 October 2011)

I think there are plenty of much more important issues in the world than this
		
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Ah, we'll just ignore it then shall we?

Bottom line, it is an appalling way to treat an animal.  Yes they are in good condition because _that_ is what showing is about - to put forward the best horse, both in terms of conformation and condition - but that does not mean that the exhibitors handling of them is acceptable in any way, shape or fashion.

Unfortunately the Arab world, in terms of showing and endurance, accepts practices that many of us (if not most of us) would find abhorrent.


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2011)

amymay, you have deliberately ignored the part of my quote which relates directly to show arabs I have known. I have said twice now that the ones I have known have been happy, well cared for horses. They weren't neurotic and head shy, they were fine. Perhaps I have been lucky and only been to the houses of nice folk, I honestly don't know. It isn't a scene that I am particularly interested in and I was really only there under duress. 

I see so much worse than this at local shows all the time. Thrashings and kids on their ponies all day, horses so fat they are waddling and yet are expected to jump three classes and do gymkhana games, horses which are patently lame. At least these horses are in good condition and aren't being asked to do something they are clearly unfit to do. No we shouldn't ignore it but we should take it in context. That is all I am saying.


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## Changes (4 October 2011)

jesstickle said:



			I don't think it's 'just arabs'. I think there are plenty of much more important issues in the world than this.  The horses are all in good condition and I know for a fact the ones I have met are well cared for and I think, perhaps, we could all worry about something more important. Of all the things that are wrong with the way we treat equines this is pretty small fry.
		
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What has this to do with the ones you have met? These horses are obviously reacting to having been hit around the head. That is abhorrent practice, and as rosie says, to have them like this in the ring makes you wonder what goes on behind the scenes to create this reaction. When the whip is touched to their noses they react as if they've had an electric shock. 

These horses are frightened of what's about to happen. And it is important, because it suggests established widespread continual abuse, it's not a one off reaction from one combination.


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## Tinypony (4 October 2011)

this is why so many people have a false impression of the temperament of the Arab horse.  They see showing like this and think that Arabs are highly strung flighty beasts.  If you saw another breed in a ring reacting like this there would be outrage.  Those horses are scared of their handlers, and as long as the wider Arab fraternity choose to accept that then nothing will ever change.  I've handled Arabs that have been professionally show trained and when you do that there is no mistaking how they feel.  Of course, as with everything, there are good trainers out there.  Unfortunately in the States we seem to see the worse excess.
How damning was it that one man, in the straw hat, actually felt he had to go and stand between the horse and the handler to protect the horse?  Where else would that handler be allowed to remain in the ring?  There is something very rotten going on in Arab showing, and although many protest against it, and even try to get action taken, it still goes on.

p.s.  I always think it's a pretty stupid argument to suggest that some forms of abuse should be ignored because there is worse out there.  Who has the right to decide which abuse others can or cannot choose to protest against?


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2011)

Changes said:



			What has this to do with the ones you have met? These horses are obviously reacting to having been hit around the head. That is abhorrent practice, and as rosie says, to have them like this in the ring makes you wonder what goes on behind the scenes to create this reaction. When the whip is touched to their noses they react as if they've had an electric shock. 

These horses are frightened of what's about to happen. And it is important, because it suggests established widespread continual abuse, it's not a one off reaction from one combination.
		
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Because the ones I have met also behaved this way in the ring and were completely different outside it.

I really can't be bothered to get into an argument about it though. I don't particularly like it, nor do I think it is good horsemanship but I also don't think it's bad enough for me to get my panties in a twist over. I guess I am a heartless cow or something.


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## Amymay (4 October 2011)

amymay, you have deliberately ignored the part of my quote which relates directly to show arabs I have known
		
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No, Jess, I have deliberately highlighted the quotes where you intimate that 1. it's not big deal, and 2. should we really worry about it.

Anyone who thinks the kind of behaviour displayed by the handlers is ok is someone who perhaps needs to look long and hard at themselves and their relationship with animals.

Every instance of good management is overshadowed by those of bad management and handling shown on a public stage.


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## Amymay (4 October 2011)

How damning was it that one man, in the straw hat, actually felt he had to go and stand between the horse and the handler to protect the horse?
		
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Exactly Tinypony.


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## Oberon (4 October 2011)

I replied on the other thread, but I hate the whole thing. I hate what it does to the reputation of Arabs as a breed and I hate the 'teacup features' of the horses.

The Arab is a war horse. It is a horse who will carry you from one end of the desert to the other. If you treat them with respect, they will get you home, even past the point of pain and exhaustion.

They are wonderful horses, proud, noble and beautiful.

This kind of behaviour makes them look foolish


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2011)

amymay said:



			No, Jess, I have deliberately highlighted the quotes where you intimate that 1. it's not big deal, and 2. should we really worry about it.

Anyone who thinks the kind of behaviour displayed by the handlers is ok is someone who perhaps needs to look long and hard at themselves and their relationship with animals.

Every instance of good management is overshadowed by those of bad management and handling shown on a public stage.
		
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Why should it be the case that every case of good management should be overshadowed by bad? I am firmly of the opinion that one sided reporting of something, using sensationalist videos is a bad way to go about raising awareness. It just gives a false impression of the actual situation. It puts up the backs of people involved in the community under attack and it only tells half a story. If people want to go to a couple of big shows and see what it is like, go round the stable blocks and see what is happening and then come back and say it is reprehensible then that is fine. If people want to base their whole opinion on a video on youtube I'm not sure that they are in a position to comment.

There are bad eggs in every sport. I  do not think, from what I have personally seen, that there is too much of a problem there. It is, of course, my opinion but it is based on more than a video on the internet at least.


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## Meowy Catkin (4 October 2011)

The Aachen video is horrific. It makes me very, very sad indeed.

There have been some very good suggestions made on the AL forum on how to stop this awful handling of in-hand arabs (basically the judges can give yellow or red card to any handler that is rough with their horse - a red card means they have to leave the ring). 

The arab slips and chain are a very harsh bit of kit in the wrong hands.




			14. TRIMMING AND CLIPPING
Pure Bred Arabians - Tactile hair must not be
removed.
All exhibits - Hair must not be shaved or
otherwise removed from around horse&#8217;s eyes.
Eyelashes must be left uncut. Complete removal
of the hair from inside the ear is forbidden. No
alteration to the natural colour of the coat or skin
is permitted. No coloured products are permitted
on hooves.
It is recommended that the use of oils and clear
make-up on horses exhibiting in the show ring is
kept to a minimum. A judge may disqualify a
horse, who in their opinion is wearing excessive
make-up and /or oils.

15. CRUELTY Excessive whipping, use of electric
shock devices or *infliction of pain by any means
is forbidden in all parts of the showground, or
stable areas, at all times.
At the discretion of the judge horses that show
fear of their handlers may be asked to leave the
ring.*

16. OUTSIDE ASSISTANCE Attempting to
influence the behaviour of exhibits in the ring is
forbidden.
*Exhibits are not to be excessively stirred up.
Horses must remain calmly in the collecting ring
with a maximum of one handler/rider and one
groom until they enter the ring. No devices,
artificial gadgets or loud noises shall be used to
excite horses. This rule also applies to persons on
the outside of the ring or collecting ring. Exhibits
which are excessively excited may be asked to
leave the ring or collecting ring and be
disqualified from their class*.
		
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The above rules are from the British Arab Horse Sociecty website.


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## Tinypony (4 October 2011)

I think that if you have direct experience of professionally show trained Arabs, as I do, then you will never be able to watch these shows without wanting to weep.  When you know the absolute truth of how these horses have been "trained" I don't think any horse lover can ever accept it.
The reason these horses can be like this in the ring and completely different out of it is obvious.  They have very strong associations with the tools that are used and the way they are handled in the ring, and they don't have the same fear associated with what goes on away from the trainer and their tools.  I have experienced this for myself.  I have taken a calm and happy Arab into a field with other people and horses, holding a stick in my hand, and seen him change into a reactive and scared animal, desperately running round me and throwing out show poses in an attempt to appease me - just because I shifted my stick into my other hand.


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## Dirtymare (4 October 2011)

I have been to a big Arab show at Towerlands last year (mostly in hand, but some classes were ridden) and was absolutely appaulled.
They have the music so loud it is deafening. They run through the seating area with long schooling whips with plastic bags tied  on the ends to scare the horses, so they show their floaty paces and have their tails held high.
The handlers are "professionals" at the large shows. And the thing with the whip which the handler holds up is so the horse will look up and show its head an neck off, they dont actually hit the horses with it (usually). And the naughtier the horse (ie rearing etc) the better!!!
To be fair, the older horses looked ok with all this going on, but it was the babies that really upset me. They looked absolutely petrified.
I have never ever been back to an arab show and never ever intend to either - disgusting.


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## Oberon (4 October 2011)

Tinypony said:



			I think that if you have direct experience of professionally show trained Arabs, as I do, then you will never be able to watch these shows without wanting to weep.  When you know the absolute truth of how these horses have been "trained" I don't think any horse lover can ever accept it.
The reason these horses can be like this in the ring and completely different out of it is obvious.  They have very strong associations with the tools that are used and the way they are handled in the ring, and they don't have the same fear associated with what goes on away from the trainer and their tools.  I have experienced this for myself.  I have taken a calm and happy Arab into a field with other people and horses, holding a stick in my hand, and seen him change into a reactive and scared animal, desperately running round me and throwing out show poses in an attempt to appease me - just because I shifted my stick into my other hand.
		
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Exactly.

That's the problem - most people don't understand quite how intelligent Arabs are.

They have the ability to know the difference of when they're safe and when they're not.


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## Amymay (4 October 2011)

jesstickle said:



			There are bad eggs in every sport. I  do not think, from what I have personally seen, that there is too much of a problem there. It is, of course, my opinion but it is based on more than a video on the internet at least.
		
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There are bad eggs indeed in every sport.  And it's unfortunately the bad eggs that always ruin the reputation of otherwise good practices - that's life.  But it does serve to highlight that where bad practices exist they should not be tollerated and should be stamped out.  Howeve the handling in the video is not only bad practice, but common and accepted practice.  It is therefore hardly sensationalist.

Don't assume that people commenting here don't know what they are talking about, and are basing their opinions on just a video.


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## Dirtymare (4 October 2011)

Oberon said:



			They are wonderful horses, proud, noble and beautiful.

This kind of behaviour makes them look foolish /QUOTE]

Oh, Oberon, you have said it all right there in that sentence.
		
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## Meowy Catkin (4 October 2011)

I have taken a calm and happy Arab into a field with other people and horses, holding a stick in my hand, and seen him change into a reactive and scared animal, desperately running round me and throwing out show poses in an attempt to appease me - just because I shifted my stick into my other hand.
		
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I find it quite heartbreaking.


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## Ibblebibble (4 October 2011)

15. CRUELTY Excessive whipping, use of electric
shock devices or infliction of pain by any means
is forbidden in all parts of the showground, or
stable areas, at all times.
At the discretion of the judge horses that show
fear of their handlers may be asked to leave the
ring.

16. OUTSIDE ASSISTANCE Attempting to
influence the behaviour of exhibits in the ring is
forbidden.
Exhibits are not to be excessively stirred up.
Horses must remain calmly in the collecting ring
with a maximum of one handler/rider and one
groom until they enter the ring. No devices,
artificial gadgets or loud noises shall be used to
excite horses. This rule also applies to persons on
the outside of the ring or collecting ring. Exhibits
which are excessively excited may be asked to
leave the ring or collecting ring and be
disqualified from their class.

The very fact that the above points are needed on the Arab society website suggests that there is a problem with the way the horses are handled and the society is fully aware of it! damning evidence in itself without any youtube video.
I think by saying 'oh it's ok it's not the worse thing i've seen' is the exact reason why there are still outdated methods being practiced   Sometimes it's the little things that need addressing to have an effect on the bigger issues.


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## Flame_ (4 October 2011)

Well until the judges start giving out the prizes to arabs that stand there and trot around normally instead if to the ones wired up to boiling point it won't change. Its the same as the "fat horses in showing" thing. People are trying to give the judges what they want. It can only change when the judges start penalizing horses behaving ridiculously, especially because their handlers are training them to! I'm not a showing fan in general, but at least in most classes they don't reward wacky behavior with prizes. In many classes if horses and handlers behaved this way they'd be chucked out, not given points for displaying "spirit".


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## ThePony (4 October 2011)

God, what a sad video. Such stunning horses looking scared and stressed because of their idiot handlers.

They are in good condition, and that is good, but why should mental welfare be considered less important than physical welbeing? Such intelligent animals as horses should be well kept both physically and mentally. Saying worse abuse occurs does nothing to lessen the discusting behaviour shown here.


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## quirky (4 October 2011)

I'm 100% with Amymay.

Jesstickle, I'm shocked at your stance on this. From your posts I thought you were an experienced horse woman who could see the cruelty meted out to these horses.

I have been in a class where a horse behaved like this without the goading of the handler and she was asked to leave as she was a danger to herself and others.

How come the judges are happy to judge horses when they are like this?
Is it just Arab judges?


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## Crazydancer (4 October 2011)

quirky said:



			How come the judges are happy to judge horses when they are like this?
Is it just Arab judges?
		
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Yes - it seems this is considered the norm for showing Arabs, along with wrapping the leadrope around the hand, and also the crowd shouting and clapping to get the horses more wound up. 
As said above, only when the judges apply the letter of the law, and start marking down, or asking people to leave the ring, will this change. And as this seems to have become 'the standard' for showing, that isn't going to happen anytime soon unfortunately.
As an Arab lover, I hate this, it's sending out the wrong message about these beautiful horses, and also moving the breeding the wrong way IMO. 15 years ago a 15.2 Arab was a rarity, now there are many, and the bigger the better it seems. My boy's sire won at Windsor in the early 80's, he was 14.2 at home, (14.3 at a show  ), and was the calmest, nicest natured horse I have ever met. That's what I fell in love with.......


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## Meowy Catkin (4 October 2011)

The very fact that the above points are needed on the Arab society website suggests that there is a problem with the way the horses are handled and the society is fully aware of it! damning evidence in itself without any youtube video.
I think by saying 'oh it's ok it's not the worse thing i've seen' is the exact reason why there are still outdated methods being practiced  Sometimes it's the little things that need addressing to have an effect on the bigger issues.
		
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I agree with you. The whole thing is rotten and we must not turn a blind eye.

ETA.



			All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
		
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## Jesstickle (4 October 2011)

I'm sorry if I've surprised everyone. I can only speak as I find though and on my very limited experience of going to the shows and visiting people at home I have only met nice (albeit zany) people who think the world of their horses. I have also only met happy little horses who seem content with their lot. I even saw one of the trainers working a horse at the owners house. The filly (she was only 2 or 3) didn't seem overly bothered by the whip with the carrier bag being dangled over her head. I would have said something if I thought I was watching cruelty I assure you. Obviously other people have different experiences to me and I am all ears to hear about them but from what I have seen it would be hypocritical for me to come out and condemn everyone involved in showing arabs. Perhaps I should have said nothing at all. However, all of you who 'know' me well enough to be surprised know I can't keep my gob shut!

I don't enjoy the showing. It is loud and ridiculous, and, as so many people have said, gives the wrong impression of a lovely intelligent breed of horses. The only thing I ever really thought was that they most be fantastic horses to go out and be razzed around like that and to come back to their stables and be totally chilled. I  know if you wound my two up like that you'd have a hell of a time persuading them back down.


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## Lucyad (4 October 2011)

Absolutely shocking!


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## Paddy Irish (4 October 2011)

I have owned / loaned part breds and pure breds and only done local showing so i'm probably not qualified to comment but it seems to me that these top showers just want their animals to be viewed as nutty , wild , high spirited things , but anyone who's ever owned an arab will usually tell you that they are loyal , intelligent and loving - well mine have been. No wonder some riders wont touch them with a barge pole when their reputation is blown right out of proportion with this sort of handling - i'd be jumping backwards and trying to get away if i was being smacked about the head!


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## fburton (4 October 2011)

Jesstickle - your clarification is appreciated, I'm sure. I think what really startled and dismayed some people was your initial statement...



jesstickle said:



			That is the very worst bits from what, a three day show?  *And I don't see anything there that really upsets me to be honest.*

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I for one was upset and disturbed watching that video - though obviously not as much as I would be watching, for instance, a bull being speared in a bull-fight or a human tragedy unfolding. All the same, it upset me enough to make me feel angry about these Arab showing practices. But maybe I am over-sensitive!


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## Andalusianlover (4 October 2011)

A few years ago I was invited to attend the Arab show held at hartpury as I was going through the process of buying a young horse being shown there.

To say I was horrified at the handlers was an understatement.  At one point I pointed to this guy who was waving his long whip at the horses face and from side to side and said I was disgusted at what he was doing to his horse only to be told "he's the best handler in the country" The horse was terrified but apparently he was "just winding the horse up a bit" before it went into the ring so it "snorted and blowed" a bit more therefore putting on a more impressive show.

I love arabs but I would never buy one now that had been "show trained"!


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## Allover (4 October 2011)

I have not had a lot to do with Arab horses but what i do know is that they are one of the most intelligent, hard working, tough and giving little hosses that you will come across. In any of my dealings with them being "naughty" it is ALWAYS the handler that is the problem and not the horse. They have the ability to know and respond to good handling with incredible speed. 

This video is just another example of how bad the showing world has become, IMO it would be no bad thing to get rid of showing any animal.


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## Dancing Queen (4 October 2011)

Changes said:



			Don't know if someone has already posted this, apologies if so.

How is this acceptable - these horses are just waiting to be hit in the face....... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW_kWUip7TQ&feature=player_embedded

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I didnt watch the whole thing - i hate seeing animals frightened and abused. I do however recommend the clip is bought to the attention of the AHS and these judges/individuals are struck off and banned from keeping animals  for life.


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## Oberon (4 October 2011)

It's all so un-necessary though.

Arabs LOVE to show off.

They'd 'perform' in an audience without any encouragement. (Mine has for vets while trotting up, for the physio and hell, just for fun!).


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2011)

fburton said:



			Jesstickle - your clarification is appreciated, I'm sure. I think what really startled and dismayed some people was your initial statement...



I for one was upset and disturbed watching that video - though obviously not as much as I would be watching, for instance, a bull being speared in a bull-fight or a human tragedy unfolding. All the same, it upset me enough to make me feel angry about these Arab showing practices. But maybe I am over-sensitive!
		
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I still don't see anything there that REALLY upsets me. I stand by that statement. Compared to watching images of genocide or stories about violated children or even bull fighting there is nothing in that video to cause genuine alarm (to me at least). I do see worse every time I go to a local show and I do see worse on the news every day. Saying that doesn't mean I think that bad behaviour shouldn't be tackled, it just means that I don't like people being sensationalist about it and saying 'how awful', 'shocking', 'horrific'  etc. Call me a pedant but I prefer to keep the language I use for genuine tragedies separate from the language I use for things that annoy me and could be tackled at some point but are not life threatening. 

I know I can sound cold sometimes but one of the things which annoys me most on here is people saying how awful something is when clearly, whilst not ok, it is hardly the worst thing to happen in the world. 

Rant over. Sorry all. I'll go away now


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## claireandnadia (4 October 2011)

I don't get it and don't really like what I am seeing either.


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## Spudlet (4 October 2011)

It's not great. It's not the worst abuse in the world, but it's not great. 

TBH, I don't really like showing at all - it seems to me that often, rather than it being a case of 'I will show my horse, because it is pretty', it turns into 'I will MAKE my horse pretty by whatever means so I can win at shows', whether that involves feeding them until they're fat in order to hide those little conformational defects, or waving a stick at them until they're stressed as you like, or any of the rather unsavoury other practices that are darkly alluded to by some posters, for example to make sure the horse measures in or whatever.


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## little_critter (4 October 2011)

I looked to me as if the horses were on the whole behaving themselves until the handler either yanked them in the gob or waved a whip in it's face. I think at that point the horse is entitled to be a bit pissed off!


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## amandap (4 October 2011)

Tinypony said:



			p.s.  I always think it's a pretty stupid argument to suggest that some forms of abuse should be ignored because there is worse out there.  Who has the right to decide which abuse others can or cannot choose to protest against?
		
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Hear, hear! 

I may have different ideas of abuse to many but this abuse is condoned, accepted by judges and rewarded!  Imo this is shameful and any organization condoning this treatment of horses needs to be brought to account!

This goes back to us humans seeing the disrespect and cruel treatment of many animals we can be exposed to as 'normal' and then accepting it. 
Big rewards also have a huge ability to cloud the judgement of humans imo.

Mta. The horse at 123 ish although afraid (sadly) shows the beauty of the more 'natural' Arab. FREE and able to express itself without constraint.


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## jaquelin (4 October 2011)

Obviously the object is to get the horses head up and show length of neck and arch, but a really lazy, stupid way to do it.  
Please look at the "contrast" video posted on first page - an excellent lesson in how to show a horse to its best.  Complete calmness and how easy for the judge to assess the horse in trot, beautiful, straight, consistent paces.  The Aachen style of showing must drive judges crazy.  No wonder the gray is the East Coast (US) Champion!


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## Kenzo (4 October 2011)

I think it's a crying shame they are shown like this (replied in the other thread) but I also found it interesting to learn why they do this, so it's a good thing that it's been brought to peoples attention.

They may all be well cared for 'condition wise' as they need to be turned out well to be shown in the first place, I can't see how you can love and care for this breed when they are been handled like this? it's just wrong on so many levels.

Can you imagine that in dog showing for example, lets frighten and then yank the poor dog around the neck with it's choker chain.

The face of horse is one the most sensetive parts of the body so I can't get my head round it at all.


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## Wagtail (4 October 2011)

jesstickle said:



			That is the very worst bits from what, a three day show?  And I don't see anything there that really upsets me to be honest.

I've met quite a lot of arab folk and have been to some arab shows as I used to work for someone who sculpted them and despite the fact they're lairey in the ring they were actually totally chilled out little people in their boxes.  They seemed perfectly happy on the whole.
		
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I think you are missing the point. These handlers are doing it on purpose to get the 'arab stance' in the show ring. To show off their arab with its head aloft. It is despicable!


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## Hells Bells (4 October 2011)

How is this possibly ok?

When you step back and think of everything a horse does for its owner, lets us ride, groom, jumps, shows. Its an intellegent animal and it doesnt have to do these things, but it does because it loves and trusts us. To turn around and treat any animal like that is disgusting. Those poor ponies are doing what they are told out of fear not love.

The video makes me feel sick. 

Yes there are other "worse" types of abuse, but it certainly does not make it ok. Just because murdering someone is worse then inflicting pain upon them, doesnt mean you should settle for. I completely agree with the points above.


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## tristar (4 October 2011)

what amazes me me is how they think all this makes the horse look better! i've given up trying to judge confo of modern arabs because with their heads stuck out like that it gives a false picture, and as for running like that they only show their ingnorance because no horse can trot out properly unless its head is lowered and its neck  is relaxed, they evidently don't ride or they would know that from experience

i went to the world champonships in paris a few years ago, the noise was unbelievable,  after that those horses are either total nervous wrecks or bombproof saints.

at another recent show someone showed a horse traditionally trotted out, steadily, head and neck free no tin cans or plastic bags and screeching voices, guess what, it was a pleasure to watch, the horse trotted out beautifully without breaking, it was the only one you could enjoy watching, and evaluate in peace and looked so much more professional!


it becoming all about those deformed heads yuk!


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## Tinypony (4 October 2011)

I currently own two wonderful "well bred" Arabs, who are very different in size, shape and temperament, but the only time they look like the horses in that video is when they are afraid.  My mare has been a fiesty creature in the past, and still has her moments, but she is also kind and brave.  She lives in retirement now and when I go to visit she sees me approaching and leaves the herd nickering to come and meet me.  My gelding is a sweet natured little man, like a fairy tale horse.  He gets jealous when I give attention to my other horses and when his turn comes will turn his head to lay his cheek against mine when I scratch his neck.  Arabs are such loyal and intelligent horses, these are the things I love about them and I would not put them in that show ring.  That's it from me really.


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## BBH (4 October 2011)

I know nothing about Arabs but if I had gone to this show and seen this I would have found it truly shocking.


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## alison_oliver (4 October 2011)

I'm lucky enough to own a purebred.. and he is the most intelligent horse I have ever known..
Must be honest though had no idea this was how they were show trained..
Very upsetting..
Makes me wonder if some of my lads old issues are due to this, he does have good breeding and although he has an old tendon injury that rules him out of showing, he may well have been shown early on in life..
Oh lord the thought of someone treating him like that is horrible


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## dunkley (4 October 2011)

tristar said:



			what amazes me me is how they think all this makes the horse look better! i've given up trying to judge confo of modern arabs because with their heads stuck out like that it gives a false picture, and as for running like that they only show their ingnorance because no horse can trot out properly unless its head is lowered and its neck  is relaxed, they evidently don't ride or they would know that from experience

i went to the world champonships in paris a few years ago, the noise was unbelievable,  after that those horses are either total nervous wrecks or bombproof saints.

at another recent show someone showed a horse traditionally trotted out, steadily, head and neck free no tin cans or plastic bags and screeching voices, guess what, it was a pleasure to watch, the horse trotted out beautifully without breaking, it was the only one you could enjoy watching, and evaluate in peace and looked so much more professional!


it becoming all about those deformed heads yuk!
		
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Exactly what I wanted to say! Aside from every comment on the whys and wherefores of the handling - I just cannot understand why anyone would think this shows a horse to it's best.  Every other breed seems to be able to be judged on it's conformation, paces, manners and condition, without being wound up to exaggerate it's movement.  Since I was a child, I have loved the grace, and arrogant,haughty and intelligent look of the Arab. This makes me sad, and does nothing for the breed's reputation.


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## Amymay (4 October 2011)

I still don't see anything there that REALLY upsets me. I stand by that statement. _Compared to watching images of genocide or stories about violated children or even bull fighting there is nothing in that video to cause genuine alarm (to me at least)._

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Interesting comparison, and of course in reality there is _no_ comparison between the examples you cite, and the video.  However, just because it's not in the same league, does not mean it should be ignored.

Abuse takes many forms, some far, far worse than others.  I'm not sure it's a competition though in comparing what is worse.  No form of abuse should be ignored.

You don't come across as cold - merely disinterested and dispassionate.


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## Wagtail (4 October 2011)

amymay said:



			Interesting comparison, and of course in reality there is _no_ comparison between the examples you cite, and the video.  However, just because it's not in the same league, does not mean it should be ignored.

Abuse takes many forms, some far, far worse than others.  I'm not sure it's a competition though in comparing what is worse.  No form of abuse should be ignored.

You don't come across as cold - merely disinterested and dispassionate.
		
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Exactly, it's like saying that it is not that bad that a child got smacked across the face because some get sexually abused or even murdered.

Or to bring it back to horses, it is like saying it is not that bad that someone did not rug or hay up their horse all winter and it was now like a hat rack, because some horses didn't get water either.


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2011)

I agree amymay that it shouldn't be ignored. I never said the rules shouldn't be changed so that the bad eggs were punished for bad behaviour, merely that I didn't see anything that horrific. And yes, I suppose I am probably a bit disinterested as I tend to save my vitriol for other things which I personally find more important. I refuse to be berated for thinking there are more important things in life for me to worry about. I care for my own horses as best I can, if I see something with my own eyes that I disagree with I'll speak up but in terms of internet campaigns etc this is pretty low on my personal list of priorities. Especially as my first hand experience of the situation really wasn't that bad.  If that is an unpopular opinion so be it.


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## Amymay (4 October 2011)

but in terms of internet campaigns etc this is pretty low on my personal list of priorities.
		
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Is this a campaign? I thought it was just a discussion.

You're right - it's not horrific.  Just unnecessary, unsavoury and within the definitions of cruelty - cruel.

As regards your first hand experience, that is just the way it should be.  Hold that thought close, next time you happen to watch another video like the one posted about here.  But you don't need first hand experience to appreciate right from wrong.


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## Avonbrook (4 October 2011)

This isn't a few bad eggs.  This is mainstream and it is accepted practice within the circle of people that "halter" show.  They are very surprised that anyone should find it odd.  That is how foul "halter" showing of arabs has become.

Actually, the first insiders are beginning to speak out.  However those individuals have been shouted down and vilified to date.  There is a big article in one of the main glossy arabian magazines on the subject.  However, money - particularly associated with breeding as well as the income of professional handlers - is a major factor in preventing any change to the status quo.  While it remains the closed shop that it is, little will change.

The more the curtains are drawn back and the light let in the better for the horses.


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## millreef (4 October 2011)

Shankers are *w****kers !


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## 4faults (4 October 2011)

It is an absolutely disgusting practice. Those poor beautiful horses who look so well behaved up until that point. 

Just because they look in good health doesnt mean something like this should be ignored. The more people ignore it the more justification it gives them to carry on. There are worse things in the world, but that doesnt mean its right.

Can you imagine the uproar if this kind of practice was done in any other kind of inhand class?


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## Kenzo (4 October 2011)

Avonbrook said:



			While it remains the closed shop that it is, little will change.

The more the curtains are drawn back and the light let in the better for the horses.
		
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Perhaps H&H could do a article about it in their magazine, after all H&H do print show reports and results.


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## Amymay (4 October 2011)

Kenzo said:



			Perhaps H&H could do a article about it in their magazine, after all H&H do print show reports and results.
		
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What a brilliant Idea.


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## StuartH (4 October 2011)

The Arabian Showing scene as is....... has 'lost the plot' - highlighted by Aachen (All Nations)this year.
As we undergo our darkest hour - the move in the main from the U.K. AND Europe is to leave this practise and god willing many of the handlers and supporting Owners far,far, far behind us!

The time for change I hope is finally here....... as Arabian showing has become a joke........ a cruel one!!


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## dominobrown (4 October 2011)

H+H did cover the controversy when the seceratary of the *I think* British Arabian Society horse was 'beaten' up in the collecting ring before its class by a 'professional' handler. Does no one remember it? It was either last year or the year before thugh I can't find it on google. It might be on the archives on here. Apprantly most of the society and other professionals couldn't see a problem. I think the horse was a yearling?
Ridden Arabs looks so much nicer, I think its part of the reason why I am not an arab fan, as the inhand arabs are often such inbred scatty freaks due the obession with winning shows at all cost.
The people in the video just want to win and have lost sight of what is best for their horses, a bit like dog showing did/has.


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## perfect11s (4 October 2011)

Avonbrook said:



			This isn't a few bad eggs.  This is mainstream and it is accepted practice within the circle of people that "halter" show.  They are very surprised that anyone should find it odd.  That is how foul "halter" showing of arabs has become.

Actually, the first insiders are beginning to speak out.  However those individuals have been shouted down and vilified to date.  There is a big article in one of the main glossy arabian magazines on the subject.  However, money - particularly associated with breeding as well as the income of professional handlers - is a major factor in preventing any change to the status quo.  While it remains the closed shop that it is, little will change.

The more the curtains are drawn back and the light let in the better for the horses.
		
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Yes!!! good post, the video  shows very poor horsemanship maybe the judges should take the whips off these mongs and use it  where it would help ie on the backs of the competitors legs!!!!, mind why would  anyone be showing such pooly schoolled horses  even young stock should have baisic ground manners before being entered into a competition ,and if they were properly schooled they woudnt need to carry a whip , maybe time they banned whips at least for the inhand classes??????


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## Wagtail (4 October 2011)

I can't help thinking how it reminds me of Parelli videos where the horses are made to back up by shaking the heavy lead clasps.


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## Cortez (4 October 2011)

I have worked for people who had halter arabs in the States. OK this was 20 years ago, but I have seen: horses with obvious welt marks all over their flanks ("marked" horses now supposedly banned from the show ring), horses stood in puddles of water and then electric shocked just before they go in the ring,  horses whose hooves were completely sanded down (with a power sander) and then painted with mirror-gloss hoof paint, mascara on eyelashes, horses whooshed into the ring by letting off firecrackers and fire extinguishers, etc., etc. Really hope that this won't become the norm here.


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## Marydoll (4 October 2011)

Mucky Shavings said:



			The links don't work for me
		
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Me neither, but what ive read by way of comment sounds bad enough


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## JFTDWS (4 October 2011)

I didn't find it especially horrific as it's hard to see what exactly is going on - the horses are clearly stressed out and over-excited, but I didn't see any actual contact where the horses where physically beaten (which, though not the only form of abuse possible, is what I expected from the outcry on here).  It's not comfortable viewing and it's not a handling style I approve of, but I don't approve of how most horses are handled and produced in the show ring (or indeed, a number of other sports)...


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## KVH (4 October 2011)

That is disgusting, absolutely unacceptable.


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## Wagtail (4 October 2011)

JFTD said:



			I didn't find it especially horrific as it's hard to see what exactly is going on - the horses are clearly stressed out and over-excited, but I didn't see any actual contact where the horses where physically beaten (which, though not the only form of abuse possible, is what I expected from the outcry on here).  It's not comfortable viewing and it's not a handling style I approve of, but I don't approve of how most horses are handled and produced in the show ring (or indeed, a number of other sports)...
		
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The horses are being given sharp yanks on the lead rope to make them react. They are also threatened with whips and respond excessively compared to what most horses would do which indicated they have been prepared by ACTUAL hitting with the whips. I could waft a whip in front of any of the horses noses at my yard and they would hardly blink. These horses on the clip have obviously been abused with whips.


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## Tinypony (4 October 2011)

"Ridden Arabs looks so much nicer, I think its part of the reason why I am not an arab fan, as the inhand arabs are often such inbred scatty freaks due the obession with winning shows at all cost."

That's a point though isn't it?  They wouldn't look like scatty freaks if they were shown nicely.


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## posie_honey (4 October 2011)

tbh it doesnt surprise me at all - is america - yes a gross over exaggeration of the place but all the showing over there seems to be at the detriment of the horse and for money alone


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## StuartH (4 October 2011)

JFTD said:



			I didn't find it especially horrific as it's hard to see what exactly is going on - the horses are clearly stressed out and over-excited, but I didn't see any actual contact where the horses where physically beaten (which, though not the only form of abuse possible, is what I expected from the outcry on here).  It's not comfortable viewing and it's not a handling style I approve of, but I don't approve of how most horses are handled and produced in the show ring (or indeed, a number of other sports)...
		
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Are we all watching the same thing??
I hope this link works.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW_kWUip7TQ


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## PixieWS (4 October 2011)

StuartH said:



			The Arabian Showing scene as is....... has 'lost the plot' - highlighted by Aachen (All Nations)this year.
As we undergo our darkest hour - the move in the main from the U.K. AND Europe is to leave this practise and god willing many of the handlers and supporting Owners far,far, far behind us!

The time for change I hope is finally here....... as Arabian showing has become a joke........ a cruel one!!
		
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Amen to that!


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## Meowy Catkin (4 October 2011)

JFTD, this isn't the best photo, but it demonstrates how the arab show halter with chain is fitted.







It is very harsh (and surely very painful) if tugged on in the violent manner demonstrated in the video. Someone on AL states that their arab has damage to the lower jaw that can be seen on X-rays that was caused by the mis-use of such a show halter and chain.


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## PixieWS (4 October 2011)

Its an absolute disgrace.  Shankers, judges and stewards should be ashamed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW_kWUip7TQ


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## Orangehorse (4 October 2011)

I thought that was pretty bad, and I am used to the American style of showing, when there is often a runner behind with a whip, and when the horse is standing up for the judge the runner stands in front with the whip to get the horse's attention. But our horses are well behaved and they don't react as if they are going to be hit.


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## Meowy Catkin (4 October 2011)

posie_honey said:



			tbh it doesnt surprise me at all - *is america *- yes a gross over exaggeration of the place but all the showing over there seems to be at the detriment of the horse and for money alone
		
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Aachen is in Germany.


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## Faro (4 October 2011)

Can't see the video here at work, but I can pretty much guess what it shows.  And yes, unfortunately things like this are getting more and more common place at Arab Shows.  I for one have not shown my Arabs (I have 4 purebreds) for many years now, because I don't like what goes on with the Arab show scene (both in the arena and, in some cases, away from the show also), and until the day comes when we can show Arabs without sticks, rattles, whoops, loud music, chains, FEAR, and the like - I don't plan on supporting any Arab shows.

And personally, I also hate the head in the air Arab stance - IMO it makes my beloved Arabs look ugly, as well as disguising all matter of conformational faults.

Fortunately, believe it or not, there is a small but ever-growing band of Arab enthusiasts, like myself, who would like to see these practises stopped.  It's not going to happen over night, but we won't give up hope!


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## Wagtail (4 October 2011)

Faracat said:



			JFTD, this isn't the best photo, but it demonstrates how the arab show halter with chain is fitted.







It is very harsh (and surely very painful) if tugged on in the violent manner demonstrated in the video. Someone on AL states that their arab has damage to the lower jaw that can be seen on X-rays that was caused by the mis-use of such a show halter and chain.
		
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The horse in the picture looks as though it has swellings just above the chain.


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## PixieWS (4 October 2011)

Not just in Aachen.  Towerlands, Essex this year.  Spot the grey horse with the sore mouth.  Also watch what is going on in the background.  Plus the noise is horrendous and so unecessary.  I am sure I don't need to remind any of you that this is an animal of flight.  Its just cruel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmG7NFQxzdk&feature=related


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## Perissa (4 October 2011)

Wagtail said:



			The horse in the picture looks as though it has swellings just above the chain.
		
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Those are tooth bumps, most youngsters get them when they are changing teeth.  The picture is of a miniature horse not an arab, most arab bridles in the current fashion have wider webbing nosebands often with beads hanging of them.  A few years ago it was fashion to have leather covered wire nosebands that cut the nose.  In the UK most of the time these wire thin nosebands also had a wider leather backing making them much kinder.  I have two such bridles and a webbing one. The chain is most often taped up behind the chin to reduce the amount the chain moves through the links and therefore much reducing the shank effect.

I haven't shown Dennis in hand since 2008.  I will not have him whirled and twirled, or shanked and yanked - simple as.  You may like to know that there is a slow but sure move back to traditional showing.  More and more of the shows are having traditional showing classes where you are not even allowed to turn circles.  Sadly I don't think this will ever take off in Europe and certainly not in America.


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## Slave2Magic (4 October 2011)

As the owner of a stocky, sane, non whip shy arab with no extreme features, this clip just shows why hell would freeze over before I put my mare through that! Owners and breeders of other breeds must wonder what is achieved by such a bad show of horsemanship. All I can say is be ashamed, be very ashamed!!


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## JFTDWS (4 October 2011)

Wagtail said:



			The horses are being given sharp yanks on the lead rope to make them react. They are also threatened with whips and respond excessively compared to what most horses would do which indicated they have been prepared by ACTUAL hitting with the whips. I could waft a whip in front of any of the horses noses at my yard and they would hardly blink. *These horses on the clip have obviously been abused with whips.*



			The video is so blurry I can neither see whips clearly (odd shots where you can see them waving about) nor determine exactly how they're being used.  The "yanking" is something I commonly see in in hand classes and on yards where people have issues bringing in from the field so don't actually find it that shocking.  Or rather, no more so than I find it elsewhere.  I don't actually agree that they have necessarily been abused with whips - they have been conditioned to respond in that manner (the same as yours are conditioned not to react).  I could poke mine in the face with a schooling whip while I am riding and get no reaction, or poke him with a crop while standing in front of him while he's loose in the field with no response - he's conditioned not to respond to those cues.  If I stood in front of him with a schooling whip, he would behave differently - backing up sharply if I pointed it at him and rearing up if I raise it.  He's never been hit, but he IS trained to react in that manner (and I bet I get a slating for that, but he's my horse, my business!).

eta - Faracat, that does put the tugging in a different light - but is it any worse than a NH halter?  I have one (left on my yard when I started renting it) which has a similar action.  I've seen horses on yards yanked about in those too. 

Click to expand...



Click to expand...


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## Kenzo (4 October 2011)

Some of the tugs they give on the videos posted (notice how I said some) are not as harsh as it appears (still enough to make a horse flinch of course) but it's clear the horses know what's coming and no doubt the tugging or what ever the term for it is, is done much drastically out of the ring be it at home etc.

Who can we write to about this? if everyone has bothered to repy to this post or just read it and agree, surely it's worth all the letters, emails from us all being sent to the right people, groups, societies etc?

Any suggestions?


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## PixieWS (4 October 2011)

If this is what goes on in the public eye what on earth goes on at home.  Its a disgrace.  No other word for it.


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## StuartH (4 October 2011)

What can you not see?? 

Look again!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW_kWUip7TQ


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## Wagtail (4 October 2011)

Kenzo said:



			Some of the tugs they give on the videos posted (notice how I said some) are not as harsh as it appears (still enough to make a horse flinch of course) but it's clear the horses know what's coming and no doubt the tugging or what ever the term for it is, is done much drastically out of the ring be it at home etc.

Who can we write to about this? if everyone has bothered to repy to this post or just read it and agree, surely it's worth all the letters, emails from us all being sent to the right people, groups, societies etc?

Any suggestions?
		
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Good idea. I would certainly write if I knew who to, or sign a petition.


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## PixieWS (4 October 2011)

Quote................The video is so blurry I can neither see whips clearly (odd shots where you can see them waving about) nor determine exactly how they're being used..........Unquote

Without meaning to attack you...... perhaps a visit to you opticians is in order.


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## PixieWS (4 October 2011)

StuartH said:



			What can you not see?? 

Look again!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW_kWUip7TQ

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Clearly that person is a "blindey"


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## Amymay (4 October 2011)

Faracat said:



			JFTD, this isn't the best photo, but it demonstrates how the arab show halter with chain is fitted.







It is very harsh (and surely very painful) if tugged on in the violent manner demonstrated in the video. Someone on AL states that their arab has damage to the lower jaw that can be seen on X-rays that was caused by the mis-use of such a show halter and chain.
		
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Essentially a stallion chain by any other name, and to be used with caution.


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## JFTDWS (4 October 2011)

PixieWS said:



			Without meaning to attack you...... perhaps a visit to you opticians is in order.
		
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More likely my computer is screwed   HOWEVER, I don't think the posters complaining about this are claiming that the horses are being hit, they are suggesting that they are scared of the whips as they have been hit at home, making this somewhat irrelevant.


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## Kenzo (4 October 2011)

The video is so blurry I can neither see whips clearly (odd shots where you can see them waving about) nor determine exactly how they're being used.  The "yanking" is something I commonly see in in hand classes and on yards where people have issues bringing in from the field so don't actually find it that shocking.(
		
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I agree the video is too blurry to judge every handler, I've watched it a few times and without sound, to be fair a clearer footage would be better.

But I've never seen anyone yank their horses like that at horse shows, maybe the odd one telling a stallion or colt to back off and listen when getting bolshy, but certainly not as method to show their horse off in front of the judge and spectators.

NH halter (not that I've got one) works on pressure and release, it shouldn't be yanked on and I cringe when I see people using them to lunge and tie up with, so yes it is quite different surely?


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## Amymay (4 October 2011)

NH halter (not that I've got one) works on pressure and release, it shouldn't be yanked on and I cringe when I see people using them to lunge and tie up with, so yes it is quite different surely?
		
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Even yanking a NH halter wouldn't have the same result as the Arab halter, because the metal chain obviously has a far more brutal affect.


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## JFTDWS (4 October 2011)

Kenzo said:



			NH halter (not that I've got one) works on pressure and release, it shouldn't be yanked on and I cringe when I see people using them to lunge and tie up with, so yes it is quite different surely?
		
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Hm, your point would be that if they are used correctly and NH halter is less dangerous than a stallion chain used incorrectly?  Can't disagree with that!  I'm really lamenting the number of people who don't use them correctly (rather than those who don't use them as a means of applying a forceful tug).  Possibly not really relevant - it doesn't excuse either case, merely an observation that similar sorts of equipment are abused on a wider scale than arab showing classes...  As I say, more of an observation than anything.


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2011)

Well BH is always led with a chain. You can see his headcollar in my siggy in fact. Other wise he naffs off constantly. I don't yank on it but he occasionally runs into it when he is being rude. He doesn't seem too traumatised by it frankly


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## JFTDWS (4 October 2011)

jesstickle said:



			Well BH is always led with a chain. You can see his headcollar in my siggy in fact. Other wise he naffs off constantly. I don't yank on it but he occasionally runs into it when he is being rude. He doesn't seem too traumatised by it frankly
		
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Runs over the front of his nose though, not tightening under the jaw, so the action is somewhat different?  I've used a chain like that on my 5 y/old when he was on livery and being an ill mannered git...


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2011)

JFTD said:



			Runs over the front of his nose though, not tightening under the jaw, so the action is somewhat different?  I've used a chain like that on my 5 y/old when he was on livery and being an ill mannered git...
		
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Sort of but it does run all the way round the back so tightens front and back. If he really pulls he cops it front and back as it isn't anchored in anyway and can tighten on itself indefinitely.


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## JFTDWS (4 October 2011)

jesstickle said:



			Sort of but it does run all the way round the back so tightens front and back. If he really pulls he cops it front and back as it isn't anchored in anyway and can tighten on itself indefinitely.
		
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Oh well, you're probably evil and heartless and yank on it just for fun, I bet


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## Kenzo (4 October 2011)

JFTD said:



			Hm, your point would be that if they are used correctly and NH halter is less dangerous than a stallion chain used incorrectly?  Can't disagree with that!  I'm really lamenting the number of people who don't use them correctly (rather than those who don't use them as a means of applying a forceful tug).  Possibly not really relevant - it doesn't excuse either case, merely an observation that similar sorts of equipment are abused on a wider scale than arab showing classes...  As I say, more of an observation than anything.
		
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No I know what your saying, I agree all are abused at times, you only have to see people abusing a horse with a bit when they start yanking them in the mouths when they loose their patience etc.

My point was I can justify someone giving a yank if its really needed (never used a chain or NH halter myself but have no issues with who people do and need to thats fair enough) but yanking continually for showing purposes to show them off, it's totally un called for, which is why so many people find it shocking to see.


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## Kenzo (4 October 2011)

amymay said:



			Even yanking a NH halter wouldn't have the same result as the Arab halter, because the metal chain obviously has a far more brutal affect.
		
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Absolutely.


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2011)

JFTD said:



			Oh well, you're probably evil and heartless and yank on it just for fun, I bet 

Click to expand...

O yeah. Both of mine are totally abused 

Do  you know what upsets me more than the way these arabs are being shown? People sawing their horses gobs to get them in an 'outline'. At least this is a sharp tug and then a release. I've watched people ride a whole dressage test sawing away and leaning into it too. Imagine how awful that must be for the poor horse. Yuck!


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## JFTDWS (4 October 2011)

jesstickle said:



			O yeah. Both of mine are totally abused 

Do  you know what upsets me more than the way these arabs are being shown? People sawing their horses gobs to get them in an 'outline'. At least this is a sharp tug and then a release. I've watched people ride a whole dressage test sawing away and leaning into it too. Imagine how awful that must be for the poor horse. Yuck!
		
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Horses being sawed down into an outline which is so on the forehand that after a couple of years they're crippled with arthritis so bad their owners get their knees injected with steroids so they can go out and compete some more?  Happened to a mare I used to school, I absolutely loved her, considered buying her but wasn't in a position.  A few years down the line I saw her again like this


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## fburton (4 October 2011)

PixieWS said:



			Not just in Aachen.  Towerlands, Essex this year.  Spot the grey horse with the sore mouth.  Also watch what is going on in the background.  Plus the noise is horrendous and so unecessary.  I am sure I don't need to remind any of you that this is an animal of flight.  Its just cruel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmG7NFQxzdk&feature=related

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FFS, what's with all the whooping?! This isn't America!  Why does it have to be so noisy??


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## Crazydancer (4 October 2011)

The bit that I find disturbing, although the yanking is bad enough, was towards the end, where the handler brings the butt-end of the whip slowly towards the horses muzzle..... the horse almost transfixed..... but at the point of contact the horse reacts like they have been shocked. If that is a 'trained response' then I dread to think of the training methods used.


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## Hippona (4 October 2011)

Tinypony said:



			I think that if you have direct experience of professionally show trained Arabs, as I do, then you will never be able to watch these shows without wanting to weep.  When you know the absolute truth of how these horses have been "trained" I don't think any horse lover can ever accept it.
The reason these horses can be like this in the ring and completely different out of it is obvious.  They have very strong associations with the tools that are used and the way they are handled in the ring, and they don't have the same fear associated with what goes on away from the trainer and their tools.  I have experienced this for myself.  I have taken a calm and happy Arab into a field with other people and horses, holding a stick in my hand, and seen him change into a reactive and scared animal, desperately running round me and throwing out show poses in an attempt to appease me - just because I shifted my stick into my other hand.
		
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My arab was shown successfully in hand before I owned him.

I don't do showing.....I've brought him on under saddle - I hack him and we have fun.

I can lunge him......but only without a whip.....with one, he is a total loony.

And bless him.....he tries his heart out for me.....and really worries if he doesn't get it right.

Know I know why.


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## Meowy Catkin (4 October 2011)

Sorry, I should have put a better photo up, but I liked the way that that one showed how the chain runs under the chin.

ETA. I have used a leadrope with a chain with my filly. I find that with it, I need to use a teeny-tiny amount of pressure to steady her. 

Knowing how little pressure is needed, makes me cringe when I see them being yanked on, especially when there is no reason to do so, ie, the horse isn't about to attack anyone.


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## Changes (4 October 2011)

Crazydancer said:



			The bit that I find disturbing, although the yanking is bad enough, was towards the end, where the handler brings the butt-end of the whip slowly towards the horses muzzle..... the horse almost transfixed..... but at the point of contact the horse reacts like they have been shocked. If that is a 'trained response' then I dread to think of the training methods used. 

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Me too. Just like watching a horse touch an electric fence by mistake with it's nose.........  

I've heard from someone in the Arab showing world about the electric water trays, and minor plastic surgery to increase the size of the eyes, apparently, and liposuction to get the right shape - FFS .......


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## fburton (4 October 2011)

Changes said:



			I've heard from someone in the Arab showing world about the electric water trays, and minor plastic surgery to increase the size of the eyes, apparently, and liposuction to get the right shape - FFS ....... 

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This is just... WRONG! (like unfettered capitalism, but in this case horses are the exploited commodity)


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## Amaranta (4 October 2011)

StuartH said:



			The Arabian Showing scene as is....... has 'lost the plot' - highlighted by Aachen (All Nations)this year.
As we undergo our darkest hour - the move in the main from the U.K. AND Europe is to leave this practise and god willing many of the handlers and supporting Owners far,far, far behind us!

The time for change I hope is finally here....... as Arabian showing has become a joke........ a cruel one!!
		
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I agree, I hate what the 'showing fraternity' has done to the Arab horse


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## Wagtail (4 October 2011)

Having never owned an arab or been part of the in hand horse showing world, I have been completely surprised by all this. Unbelievable.


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## Damnation (4 October 2011)

Its nt the whips I dislike.
Its the constantly checking the horses even though they are stood still and correctly. A small chain like that really pinches..


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## Tinypony (4 October 2011)

I think that the trend for this sort of showing started in the States and has spread into Europe and the UK?  As Perissa said earlier, in the UK there are people fighting back against this and classes where Arabs can be shown more naturally.  
My gelding was qualified for Aachen when I brought him, but showing has never been my thing.  From when she was a foal I paid for my mare to take part in the Futurity class at Malvern when she was three.  I went to suss it all out when she was two and what I saw there made me decide to scrap the whole idea.  I'd spent all that time producing a nice horse there was no way I was going to take her into that ring to be scared witless by spectators or to have professionals wazzing up horses around us to put us off our game.  Very sad.
It's very sad that so many people are put off showing their Arabs because of this sort of rubbish.


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## Natch (4 October 2011)

Flame_ said:



			Well until the judges start giving out the prizes to arabs that stand there and trot around normally instead if to the ones wired up to boiling point it won't change. 




			Absolutely.



4faults said:



			Can you imagine the uproar if this kind of practice was done in any other kind of inhand class?
		
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Well I'm suprised nobody has mentioned it before but welsh cob in-hand showing is very similar in that they wind them up as much as possible, especially the stallions. Although its not shown on this clip, its not uncommon to see things thrown up in the air and railingd rattled by the handler's whip to fire the welshies up further.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGQmLJNxVi0&feature=related

I haven't seen a calmly done welsh class for comparisson, but actually at 1.43 on the above video there is a nice cob being trotted out fast, but not messed about, and I think its really pleasing on the eye. 

How different to a county showing class I groomed for a friend with her highland pony. He was very laid back, and didn't show himself off well in trot in hand, so we wound him up as much as we could before she went in the ring. We did a bit too good a job of it, and he cantered a few strides when he first went off into trot. She got placed at the bottom of the line up and the judge told her that that was the reason why. All these welshies and arabs rearing, bucking, cantering instead of trotting should be treated the same, in my opinion. That's how you stop the handlers from wanting to wind them up too much.
		
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## SusannaF (4 October 2011)

I really thought that the Arab horse show folk in the UK didn't let this stuff happen. How disappointing.


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## idx (4 October 2011)

I think most have agreed this is appauling behaviour but lots of people must have been spectating and did nothing?  If this was a UK show I would be emailing the secretary with a link to this forum to show the level of disgust.

Just because something has always been done does not make it acceptable - so I would challenge each of us to think what are we doing to do next time we see something as unacceptable as at a show.  COMPLAIN to the judge, secretary and anyone else who will listen.

There was an interesting post the other day about by-stander effect here http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=487413


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## somethingorother (4 October 2011)

Some of this has been blown out of of proportion. I have never ever seen any arab at a show or the few i have seen in training being whipped around the head. I don't see it in those videos either. 

The shanking is awful, and i always wonder how they don't end up with bone deformities or bigger bony growths on their jaws from it. 

These people get paid so much money to do this, and everyone gets caught up in the excitement and follows whatever these 'experts' do. God forbid you say a word against them (i have). To be honest i am unsure how i feel, i have seen one trainer with youngsters and they have been poohing in fear at the sight of him, trying to figure out what is wanted when the aids or neither clear nor calm and involve a lot of flinging a whip from side to side and shanking on the chain. But then none of this persons horses were scared of them, they were all affectionate and I have even affection in the ring with one of the stallions and this person. So surely they can't be too traumatised. 

The owners do become blind to it though, they are surrounded by it all the time and it is completely normal to them. Sadly.  

The amount of bagging that goes on in the collecting ring is disgusting. The mare and foal classes were particularly upsetting, with young foals falling over with fear at their mothers being wound up and chased around. No one does anything, it's 'normal'....

But not all trainers shank, and not all horses that are excited and silly in the ring are nutty, abused, beaten victims. I don't beleive that it's as common as made out for them to be whipped in the stables either. I see no reason for it when you can do enough in full view and get away with it.


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## somethingorother (4 October 2011)

idx said:



			I think most have agreed this is appauling behaviour but lots of people must have been spectating and did nothing?  If this was a UK show I would be emailing the secretary with a link to this forum to show the level of disgust.

Just because something has always been done does not make it acceptable - so I would challenge each of us to think what are we doing to do next time we see something as unacceptable as at a show.  COMPLAIN to the judge, secretary and anyone else who will listen.

There was an interesting post the other day about by-stander effect here http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=487413

Click to expand...

Towerlands is a UK show, they're basically all the same...

And one person complaining will just be laughed at. I have no idea how you go about changing the mindset of a whole culture, but i do think it is starting to happen slowly... hopefully.


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## amandap (4 October 2011)

It's a shame some of the handlers can't run fast enough and the horses have to trot with a bent neck!  

The thing that really sticks out for me in all this is the presence, fire, spirit, showing themselves off, or whatever you want to call it, is a picture of horses on high alert and often afraid! That adrenaline produces the alert poses and to me it is a shame that we can't seem to see or admire a horses true conformation without invoking fear.


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## tallyho! (4 October 2011)

amandap said:



			It's a shame some of the handlers can't run fast enough and the horses have to trot with a bent neck!  

The thing that really sticks out for me in all this is the presence, fire, spirit, showing themselves off, or whatever you want to call it, is a picture of horses on high alert and often afraid! That adrenaline produces the alert poses and to me it is a shame that we can't seem to see or admire a horses true conformation without invoking fear.
		
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like 

Crackers if you ask me but... there you go 21st Century horsemanship. We can succeed in making a digital future yet fail to be smart enough to handle a horse...


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## Rollin (4 October 2011)

Here is our French trainer, with our 3 year old colt at his 'approval' in France.  Non of the rough handling displayed on the other videos.

http://www.shagyafrance.fr/elevage/etalons/arabe-shagyas/under-milkwood


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## amandap (4 October 2011)

PixieWS said:



			Not just in Aachen.  Towerlands, Essex this year.  Spot the grey horse with the sore mouth.  Also watch what is going on in the background.  Plus the noise is horrendous and so unecessary.  I am sure I don't need to remind any of you that this is an animal of flight.  Its just cruel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmG7NFQxzdk&feature=related

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 Omg! It's like a scene from some sort of frenzied Spanish spoof horror movie.

I take it the manic music and woos are designed to energize the horses and crowd. I'm sorry to say it looks a sad, awful mockery to me. No wonder horses think we are nuts... we are!

Have to go back to watch it all without sound. I daren't put the sound on the original clip.


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## Avonbrook (4 October 2011)

somethingorother said:



			Towerlands is a UK show, they're basically all the same...

And one person complaining will just be laughed at. I have no idea how you go about changing the mindset of a whole culture, but i do think it is starting to happen slowly... hopefully.
		
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Actually they will be bullied, intimidated, the subject of direct and indirect threats and, on occasion, forced into taking legal proceedings to protect themselves and their own.  

It needs numbers and weight of public opinion, which is why even this thread alone is serving a purpose in shining a light.  Yes it has been noticed.  

Ultimately then the truth will dawn that what these people regard as normal behaviour by humans just plain isn't.  Whether that starts with owners and sponsors no longer wishing to be associated with such a tarnished arena or official bodies seeing the potential collapse of their power bases I can't predict.  But for the first time I sense that there becomes enough momentum building for the balance to shift.


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## brown tack (4 October 2011)

How about Morgan horses then, 

This is of a two year old filly being shown in a long shank curb bit, and again lots of winding up the horse
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=GB#/watch?v=TWAedomjFlo


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## MagicMelon (4 October 2011)

jesstickle said:



			That is the very worst bits from what, a three day show?  And I don't see anything there that really upsets me to be honest.
		
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Really?


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## Oberon (4 October 2011)

Cortez said:



			I have worked for people who had halter arabs in the States. OK this was 20 years ago, but I have seen: horses with obvious welt marks all over their flanks ("marked" horses now supposedly banned from the show ring), horses stood in puddles of water and then electric shocked just before they go in the ring,  horses whose hooves were completely sanded down (with a power sander) and then painted with mirror-gloss hoof paint, mascara on eyelashes, horses whooshed into the ring by letting off firecrackers and fire extinguishers, etc., etc. Really hope that this won't become the norm here.
		
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I feel sick


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			Really?
		
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If you can't even be bothered to read the whole thread and the rest of my replies then I really can't be bothered to explain to you!


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## idx (4 October 2011)

Avonbrook said:



			Actually they will be bullied, intimidated, the subject of direct and indirect threats and, on occasion, forced into taking legal proceedings to protect themselves and their own.  

It needs numbers and weight of public opinion, which is why even this thread alone is serving a purpose in shining a light.  Yes it has been noticed.  

Ultimately then the truth will dawn that what these people regard as normal behaviour by humans just plain isn't.  Whether that starts with owners and sponsors no longer wishing to be associated with such a tarnished arena or official bodies seeing the potential collapse of their power bases I can't predict.  But for the first time I sense that there becomes enough momentum building for the balance to shift.
		
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Appauling that people are intimidated but I am interested in what you go onto say.  Do you mean this thread has been noticed?  Do you think momentum is building for change?  Are they waking up to reality?


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## bluewhippet (4 October 2011)

amymay said:



			Ah, we'll just ignore it then shall we?

Bottom line, it is an appalling way to treat an animal.  Yes they are in good condition because _that_ is what showing is about - to put forward the best horse, both in terms of conformation and condition - but that does not mean that the exhibitors handling of them is acceptable in any way, shape or fashion.

Unfortunately the Arab world, in terms of showing and endurance, accepts practices that many of us (if not most of us) would find abhorrent.
		
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What happens in the endurance world that is abhorrent? Genuine question - haven't a clue...


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## bluewhippet (4 October 2011)

Tinypony said:



			I currently own two wonderful "well bred" Arabs, who are very different in size, shape and temperament, but the only time they look like the horses in that video is when they are afraid.  My mare has been a fiesty creature in the past, and still has her moments, but she is also kind and brave.  She lives in retirement now and when I go to visit she sees me approaching and leaves the herd nickering to come and meet me.  My gelding is a sweet natured little man, like a fairy tale horse.  He gets jealous when I give attention to my other horses and when his turn comes will turn his head to lay his cheek against mine when I scratch his neck.  Arabs are such loyal and intelligent horses, these are the things I love about them and I would not put them in that show ring.  That's it from me really.
		
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Couldn't agree more. Mine is like a fairy tale horse too. And now I am going to have to end this before I get really really soppy!


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## Avonbrook (4 October 2011)

idx said:



			Appauling that people are intimidated but I am interested in what you go onto say.  Do you mean this thread has been noticed?  Do you think momentum is building for change?  Are they waking up to reality?
		
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Yes, although I don't know if directly by the "right" people yet.  Yes, two very well known professionals have publically put their necks on the line.  No, not yet.


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## amandap (4 October 2011)

Avonbrook said:



			Actually they will be bullied, intimidated, the subject of direct and indirect threats and, on occasion, forced into taking legal proceedings to protect themselves and their own.
		
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Sounds like those no go areas on some estates where one family and their side kicks 'rule'. "You do what I say or you and your family gets it!"


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## Avonbrook (4 October 2011)

amandap said:



			Sounds like those no go areas on some estates where one family and their side kicks 'rule'. "You do what I say or you and your family gets it!"  

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I'll let you know if I find out as a result of posting on here


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## amandap (4 October 2011)

Avonbrook said:



			I'll let you know if I find out as a result of posting on here 

Click to expand...

  I just hope you can! 

Seriously though, this sort of intimidation is very controlling (and scary) due to the threatened, vague and implied, sinister consequences of taking a stand.The vagueness lets your mind run away... It's a gang mentality and seems to always be associated with gain at the expense of others.


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## StuartH (4 October 2011)

I believe that, at last, the grass roots Owners and Breeders and a couple of die hard genuine 'in hand' handlers are climbing off their 'proverbials' and insisting on being heard.

One last time for those that cannot apparently see what is the tip of the iceberg for this breed........
 Look and be aghast!!
http://youtu.be/jW_kWUip7TQ


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## 0ldmare (4 October 2011)

Note to self: Never buy an arab that's been shown. Which is surely the opposite of what is intended by showing them in the 1st place....?


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## minkymoo (4 October 2011)

PixieWS said:



			Not just in Aachen.  Towerlands, Essex this year.  Spot the grey horse with the sore mouth.  Also watch what is going on in the background.  Plus the noise is horrendous and so unecessary.  I am sure I don't need to remind any of you that this is an animal of flight.  Its just cruel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmG7NFQxzdk&feature=related

Click to expand...

I feel it is distasteful at the least that a breed of horse that was revered and prized by the nomadic Bedouin people, often being brought inside the family tent for shelter and protection is reduced to this.

For a breed that has an ability to form a cooperative relationship with humans, is good-natured, quick to learn, and willing to please to be intimidated and frightened into performing with crappy music and people whooping and cheering is simply disgusting.

I have an Anglo Arab and to watch him behave like an idiot in the field is one of my secret pleasures, he looks so beautiful, but he does it because he wants to, not because I do. I pride myself on both my horses being well mannered and pleasant to be around. To actively encourage bad behaviour whilst waving sticks in their face - just incomprehensible IMHO. Shameful.


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## Fii (4 October 2011)

I have'nt been able to see the vids, but i get the gist of whats been shown.
 It makes me think my Arab may have been shown as a stallion in his past.
 He will walk and trot next to me on the lead rope perfectly, with me just holding the very tip, and lunges perfectly, BUT... bring a stick, lunge whip anywhere near him and he completly freaks!!


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## Gingerwitch (4 October 2011)

I just dread to think what goes on at home - if they will treat animals like that on public display - well the more years I spend around horses, the more I wonder what type of a hobby I am involved in - more and more of it sickens me each and every day.


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## jhoward (4 October 2011)

This.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIQokNqFKlU&feature=related

a horse that stretchs to the stick not shys away from it.. take note of the bay in the back ground. the arabs in the original clip, weather its snppets put to gether or not it is not needed, just like the out cry of fat horses in the show ring.


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## marvie (4 October 2011)

Hi Avonbrook
You have made some very valid points, what is needed now is for those from the ruling europe and world conferences to accept responsibility so that change can be initiated, but i have little faith happening after all the faces that seat these bodies breed, own and show themselves. Apart from a select few in the uk the wider world of arab showing is seriously big bucks. The more naive sympathists need to open their eyes, i have sent away a handler from the yard who on first appearance seemed kind - kind enough to give the horse a treat every time before the horse was shanked hard wearing a training halter with a heavy duty chain - what kind of logic says you give a child a sweetie before inflicting pain on it - abuse and very warped, but i can see the horses would prick their ears toward the handler in expectation which would give a very warped effect in the ring of the real training methods behind the pose.
I have just parted with my last show filly who was very sweet in all ways and have a loveley yearling who by far i would lass as my best but she will never grace the affiliated show circuit, i don't want to be associated with the pantomime any longer, some people who i once associated with i now feel embarassed to have known.


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## Meowy Catkin (5 October 2011)

So...

... this video has been posted, apparently in response to the 'shanking' video.

http://www.vimeo.com/30065087

It only confirms to me that the whole arab showing scene is far better _without_ the shanking.


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## Avonbrook (5 October 2011)

Apparently the second video was posted by a groom to one of the handlers in the first video.  It is however worth watching.

These horses are trained to cues.  The touch to the forelock in particular strikes me as a cue to say "its okay, its over now".  Having watched some of the livefeed from Aachan, sometimes this is a lie and it all starts again - depending on the stage of the class.  The horse goes into anxious arousal immediately the cues change.  

Look at the licking and chewing several of them exhibit after the "its okay" cue is given.  This is an autonomic nervous system response - beginning to come down from fight/flight and the adrenalin begins to drop.

Try to find a horse that responds back to the handler when fondled rather than just looking relieved and for the exit.  

Make up your own minds.

Apparently the handler who blew the whistle initially has a high level meeting with one of the main organising bodies in a few weeks.  I have followed a suggestion on another general horse forum and emailed World Horse Welfare to ask them to express an interest in the current practices in the hope that such an expression of interest from an external powerful animal welfare organisation will focus minds.

I am under no illusions that this is all about money, power and "face" not about horses particularly.  What needs to happen is for the scene - which has been marketed and perceived as being prestigious, shiney and something to be aspired to - now to be perceived by those currently using it to make money or as a power base as being tarnished and in danger of being lost to them.  Then something might change.


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## Meowy Catkin (5 October 2011)

Apparently the handler who blew the whistle initially has a high level meeting with one of the main organising bodies in a few weeks
		
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I really hope that this is the start of a change for the better, yet I fear that this brave person may be put under unbearable pressure.


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## Cuffey (5 October 2011)

Just wish I could hear what the DC with the straw hat and moustache said to handler with no 43 on his back at 1 min 10 sec and if he did hand out a red/yellow card.

Been reading up some of the rules and I find it deplorable that these rules even need to exist.
Surely all the judges need to see are good walk and full movement at trot and of course standing calm, how a judge can award marks with horses plunging round in fear is ridiculous.

''Cruelty
33. Excessive whipping or shanking, excessive stimulation by noise or intimidation, excessive circling
of the horse, use of electric shock devices or infliction of pain by any means is forbidden in all
parts of the showground or stable areas, at all times.
34. The above offences are punishable by issue of a Yellow/Red card''

http://www.ecaho.org/images/pdf/2011/2011_3_rulesforconductofshows.pdf


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## idx (5 October 2011)

Avonbrook said:



			I have followed a suggestion on another general horse forum and emailed World Horse Welfare to ask them to express an interest in the current practices in the hope that such an expression of interest from an external powerful animal welfare organisation will focus minds.
		
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Good for you and thank you for taking action.  This has opened my eyes completely I had no idea the showing of arabs was so deplorable.


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## tristar (5 October 2011)

most of those horses are under 3 years old, it is very bad for their backs to constantly raise their heads into that position which is causing them to dip their backs.

as i said in my earlier post i cannot imagine why they think the horses look better in that stance, horses forced to adopt an unnatural posture, funny that made think about rollur and draw reins except then the heads go in the opposite direction, i think its time to appreciate the beauty of horses normal posture.


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## Gingerwitch (5 October 2011)

I am amazed that these judges allow this to go on - most of them need to be fleeter of foot than the horses to stop them getting trampled on.

How did this start?
How did it become accepted
and lastly 
How can it be stopped - 

If any horse behaved like this when I was handling it I would be horrified - I just cannot believe what I was seeing at "top level" - god only knows what the qualifying rounds must be like, and how a horse has not had its jaw snapped or been seriously hurt is beyond me.

I think that the handler number 43 ought to be named and shamed - that poor poor terrified horse - it was barbaric


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## amandap (5 October 2011)

Thanks for that info cuffey. I don't think cards (whatever they mean) are enough for this type of abusive handling. I think immediate disqualification is more suitable.


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## fburton (6 October 2011)

Avonbrook said:



			Apparently the second video was posted by a groom to one of the handlers in the first video.  It is however worth watching.

These horses are trained to cues.  The touch to the forelock in particular strikes me as a cue to say "its okay, its over now".  Having watched some of the livefeed from Aachan, sometimes this is a lie and it all starts again - depending on the stage of the class.  The horse goes into anxious arousal immediately the cues change.
		
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That is quite striking, isn't it? I completely concur with your interpretation.  




			Look at the licking and chewing several of them exhibit after the "its okay" cue is given.  This is an autonomic nervous system response - beginning to come down from fight/flight and the adrenalin begins to drop.
		
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Great example of L&C. As far as I know, the autonomic story is still a theory (it was my suggestion originally) but it does seem consistent with many observations.




			Apparently the handler who blew the whistle initially has a high level meeting with one of the main organising bodies in a few weeks.  I have followed a suggestion on another general horse forum and emailed World Horse Welfare to ask them to express an interest in the current practices in the hope that such an expression of interest from an external powerful animal welfare organisation will focus minds.
		
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Good for you! I sincerely hope serious attention is given to this issue.


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## SusannaF (6 October 2011)

I'm in Germany and I couldn't watch most of those videos because the music on them was used illegally. Just a note to anyone who wants German viewers to see what's going on! Lose the music and you'll get a bigger audience.


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## Avonbrook (6 October 2011)

These are the contact details for ECAHO, the organisation that oversaw the All Nations Cup at Aachan (reposted from elsewhere)

E.C.A.H.O. Goethestrasse 61 
CH-9008 St. Gallen 
Switzerland 


Coordinates 
of the ECAHO Offices




Gudrun Waiditschka

Exec. Secretary


Entenstrasse 20

73765 Neuhausen a.d.F

Germany




Phone: +49 7158 67141

Fax: +49 7158 65152

email:g.waiditschka@ecaho.org 

The more contacts this organisation receives from genuinely concerned individuals as well as organisations, the less isolated Erik Dorssers will be when he meets them.


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## Perissa (6 October 2011)

Handler 43 works for a VERY famous German Stud, and if I remember correctly he is British.

The chap witht eh straw hat is Sven Svensson.


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## Cuffey (6 October 2011)

Perissa said:



			Handler 43 works for a VERY famous German Stud, and if I remember correctly he is British.

The chap witht eh straw hat is Sven Svensson.
		
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Thanks Perissa

Understand Sven Svensson is a Ringmaster not a DC and clearly a 'good guy''
On another Forum the suggestion for registering complaints is letters rather than emails
Letters to AHS in UK would be passed on


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## Perissa (6 October 2011)

Sven is most definitely a good guy 

Personally I think letters are always taken more seriously than an email but that might be because I'm an older generation!

I also think that it is important for a lot of non-arab people complain because if enough do then they simply cannot ignore the public perception of the breed.

Just for the record I think there are a lot of breeds that suffer for the sake of current showing trends, not just arabs.  Welsh cob stallions in this country and Tennessee Walking Horses in USA to name a couple.


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## Petethehunt (6 October 2011)

If anyone took a video at any equestrian event, ie racing, 3 day eventing, dressage and just selected the worst bits,  horse falling, rider jagging the bit in the mouth or throwing their whip down in a temper tantrum, and we do see this at 3 day eventing ...LOL,  then any of these events could be seen in a negative light.
This is my only comment after watching it.  A few of those handlers are evil and need castrating but on the whole it is a video made deliberately to upset and angst the world of arab horses, I have no idea why and really couldn't care less.


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## Tinypony (6 October 2011)

Petethehunt said:



			If anyone took a video at any equestrian event, ie racing, 3 day eventing, dressage and just selected the worst bits,  horse falling, rider jagging the bit in the mouth or throwing their whip down in a temper tantrum, and we do see this at 3 day eventing ...LOL,  then any of these events could be seen in a negative light.
This is my only comment after watching it.  A few of those handlers are evil and need castrating but on the whole it is a video made deliberately to upset and angst the world of arab horses, I have no idea why and really couldn't care less.
		
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Why post then?

Did you read the thread?  Do you realise that isn't just a video of bad bits but that the practises shown in the video far too common, as confirmed by people who have actually been to these shows?

Oh... why bother...


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## Dirtymare (6 October 2011)

Petethehunt said:



			If anyone took a video at any equestrian event, ie racing, 3 day eventing, dressage and just selected the worst bits,  horse falling, rider jagging the bit in the mouth or throwing their whip down in a temper tantrum, and we do see this at 3 day eventing ...LOL,  then any of these events could be seen in a negative light.
This is my only comment after watching it.  A few of those handlers are evil and need castrating but on the whole it is a video made deliberately to upset and angst the world of arab horses, I have no idea why and really couldn't care less.
		
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Sadly, this is not the worst bits - its the norm.
I say again, I have been to the Towerlands show and was absolutley horrified. I will never ever go to an Arab show again.
I have also heard that the owners who win shows, win most shows. Its not what you know in the Arab showing world, its who you know. There are some famous people out there who own studs and are very very serious about winning!!
The whole thing is corrupt and cruel.


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## Fellewell (6 October 2011)

dominobrown said:



			H+H did cover the controversy when the seceratary of the *I think* British Arabian Society horse was 'beaten' up in the collecting ring before its class by a 'professional' handler. Does no one remember it? It was either last year or the year before thugh I can't find it on google. It might be on the archives on here. Apprantly most of the society and other professionals couldn't see a problem. I think the horse was a yearling?
Ridden Arabs looks so much nicer, I think its part of the reason why I am not an arab fan, as the inhand arabs are often such inbred scatty freaks due the obession with winning shows at all cost.
The people in the video just want to win and have lost sight of what is best for their horses, a bit like dog showing did/has.
		
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Couldn't agree more, wouldn't be the first time fad and fashion and unscrupulous breeders have all but destroyed a breed. As for dog breeders, anyone remember pugs who can't breathe and spaniels with brains too big for their skulls? Shower of bast***s


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## EstherYoung (6 October 2011)

The whole thing was broadcast live over t'interweb for the three days of the show. I dipped in and out of it and sadly I can confirm that the video isn't 'just' edited lowlights 

I can probably count the amount of empathetic handlers I saw on the fingers of one hand. Don't get me wrong, there were some, but they were vastly outnumbered.


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## foxy1 (6 October 2011)

Jesstickle clearly has friends in the arab showing world that she doesn't want to upset.

Absolutely shocking footage.


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## ABC (6 October 2011)

Perissa said:



			Sven is most definitely a good guy 

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Most definately agree, perhaps people who are complaining can mention him? It would be nice for him to get some credit  He is a lovely man, with horses best intentions at heart


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## jennyf (6 October 2011)

Speaking as an ex-show secretary (and BSJA Judge), anyone who has an issue with this kind of thing can report it to the show secretary?  It is then down to the show secretary to have words with those concerned, the judges and/or the competitor.  

Anyone with a complaint can kick up enough fuss but they do need to have the guts to do it, and sometimes that is not always easy.  If you feel strong enough about an issue, threaten to take it to the local paper, or take a video - believe me, that works.


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## TallyHo123 (6 October 2011)

I think that's horrible. All the handlers seem like jumped up idiots!!


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## joelb (6 October 2011)

Wondered what all the fuss was about as Ive never heard of Arab Showing but OMG Im shocked.  The fear reactions in those poor horses wouldnt look out of place in the stunning pen at a foreign abattoir.  Very sad if this is acceptable handling.


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## Crazydancer (6 October 2011)

jennyf said:



			Speaking as an ex-show secretary (and BSJA Judge), anyone who has an issue with this kind of thing can report it to the show secretary?  It is then down to the show secretary to have words with those concerned, the judges and/or the competitor.
		
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The problem here is that it is an international show, and the owners involved are extemely rich and powerful, and this is more about status and power than showing horses. 
I read on another forum that someone who wrote an article in an Arab magazine taking a stand against all of this, is now in fear for his life. (Repeating something read, so I don't personally have facts here...) 

So if you want to help to stop this, please write or email either the AHS or ECAHO, who are the organisation that oversaw the All Nations Cup at Aachan 

E.C.A.H.O. Goethestrasse 61 
CH-9008 St. Gallen 
Switzerland 

Coordinates of the ECAHO Offices
Gudrun Waiditschka
Exec. Secretary
Entenstrasse 20
73765 Neuhausen a.d.F
Germany
email:g.waiditschka@ecaho.org

ARAB HORSE SOCIETY
Windsor House
Ramsbury
Marlborough
Wiltshire
SN8 2PE

We can express feelings on here, which will change nothing, or we can stand up and be counted. There seems to be a growing feeling that things can change if enough people do make a stand, be part of it.


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## frannieuk (6 October 2011)

I'm not a "fluffy" horse owner by any stretch, but that video made for pretty uncomfortable viewing. I wonder how this has become acceptable in the Aran showing world?


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## idx (6 October 2011)

Avonbrook said:



			These are the contact details for ECAHO, the organisation that oversaw the All Nations Cup at Aachan (reposted from elsewhere)

E.C.A.H.O. Goethestrasse 61 
CH-9008 St. Gallen 
Switzerland 
Coordinates 
of the ECAHO Offices
Gudrun Waiditschka
Exec. Secretary
Entenstrasse 20
73765 Neuhausen a.d.F
Germany

Phone: +49 7158 67141
Fax: +49 7158 65152

email:g.waiditschka@ecaho.org 

The more contacts this organisation receives from genuinely concerned individuals as well as organisations, the less isolated Erik Dorssers will be when he meets them.
		
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Thanks I have emailed.  I hope others do the same and we can perhaps force change.


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## jennyf (7 October 2011)

I agree Crazdancer, and I have come up against this sort of thing - International, big 'names' etc.  But the fact remains that rules and regs. are there for everyone to obey.  It might  not do any good, but complaints should always be made to the organisers regardless.  Bit like banging your head against a brick wall.


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## el_Snowflakes (7 October 2011)

3 words.........

bunch.of.dicks


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## furball (7 October 2011)

Im glad this thread has appeared on here, there is also one running on horse gossip, may be now some thing might get done? Arabs are viewed in a very narrow fashion in the showing world because of the way they are turned out and handled as are Welsh which are hyped up as much. It is not un common for welsh stallions to be kept in a blacked out stable/ lorry then ran straight in the ring, this goes on at every Royal Welsh show. As does bottle shaking, cattle prodding, and any thing to wind up the horses. 

I was unfortunate enough one year to end up next to the welsh ring at one large show, never heard such a god awful carry on in all my life, Arab showing seems to be the same.


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## Naryafluffy (7 October 2011)

Tinypony said:



			this is why so many people have a false impression of the temperament of the Arab horse.  They see showing like this and think that Arabs are highly strung flighty beasts.
		
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My sister has an older arab that used to be an endurance horse, it's as stupid as a box of frogs, at 26yo it won't stand for the farrier, won't stand in for the vet and is just generally a bit stupid, I don't know how she tolerates because I would have probably killed it by now.
It has no manners and trying to discipline it is a waste of time as it doesn't seem to be able to learn.
Would have to say though that it's not head shy, not sure about it being frightened of a whip, but then again it's frightened of everything else so why not the whip as well.


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## Pasha (7 October 2011)

Oberon said:



			I replied on the other thread, but I hate the whole thing. I hate what it does to the reputation of Arabs as a breed and I hate the 'teacup features' of the horses.

The Arab is a war horse. It is a horse who will carry you from one end of the desert to the other. If you treat them with respect, they will get you home, even past the point of pain and exhaustion.

They are wonderful horses, proud, noble and beautiful.

This kind of behaviour makes them look foolish 
	
	
		
		
	


	




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I agree 100%


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## pip6 (7 October 2011)

The majority of arabs are no more neurotic than a welshie, but handling such as this turns them into nutcases, some of which get sold to members of the public who then develop a misconception that this behaviour is typical of the breed.

Personnally I hate this form of showing, it does nothing to enhance the beauty of the breed. If I had my way the modern showing technique would be banned forever. They should be shown classically with the horses in a natural pose. They are not designed to be held in this extreme pose in fear if being flicked in the face with the whip (personally seen many times at arab c shows in the uk) or punched. They should be shown in a natural pose, with no whips (which would preclude their use to make the horses extend their strides).

Not only should the arab world be looking to produce a beautiful horse, but it should be fit for purpose. If it is so extreme that it cannot carry a rider (bearing in mind these horses have lived with & been bred by Bedouin for millenia as war horses), eyes so bulbus they cause problems & faces so dished it interferes with their breathing. The arab is in danger of going the way of the bulldog, that waddles & can't breath if it is a show standard specimen & could never fulfil its original role of being an athletic animal able to fight bears & bulls. I just think the 'ideal' is getting so extreme the original purpose has been lost to the detrment of the animal. There are some excellent breeders & animals, but the EACHO needs to look in which direction it should go in terms of the animal produced & how it is judged at shows.

Rant over, sorry.


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## dominobrown (7 October 2011)

Firstly, Pip, you are right. A lot of Arabs are very inbred with overly dished faces etc, meaning often there are 2 types of arabs, ones that can be ridden and work, and other that just breed and show. Remember Arabs are meant to a WORKING horse!

Secondly, the respone 'positive' video cn anyone post a video of someone not patting their horse when it wins a class?? Happens all the time, the only thing is most showing producers don't work their horses into a state, but slowly produce well schooled and relaxed horses, you will see a lot of this a HOYS especially in the hunter/cob/ ridden classes.

Thirdly, for all those who thinks its not that bad, but yourself in the horses shoes. Does any of these horse look calm, happy and look like their enjoying themsleves? No I don't think so. Well done to those of you who are taking action.


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## fburton (7 October 2011)

dominobrown said:



			Remember Arabs are meant to a WORKING horse!
		
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I've seen an Arab ploughing a field (albeit with a small plough - maybe people can guess where/by whom).


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## MadisonBelle (7 October 2011)

Oberon said:



			They are wonderful horses, proud, noble and beautiful.

This kind of behaviour makes them look foolish 
	
	
		
		
	


	




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Not foolish no.....my heart bled for them!!!! As usual it is the damn humans who are foolish!!! WHY is this allowed??? Have never seen anything like this before IN FRONT OF JUDGES????? It won't change if the Judges allow it!!

I really cannot believe what I have just seen.............


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## Fellewell (7 October 2011)

Following on from the Arab going the same way as the bulldog.The sad thing is that diseases directly caused by inbreeding Arabs such as Severe Combined Immunodeficiency Disease (SCID) and Cerebellar Abiotrophy (CA) don't just affect Arabs they affect all registries that accept part bred Arabs too.


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## Sarah Sum1 (7 October 2011)

Just another example of humans acting like morons. Lording it over all other beings as we are best.......


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## pip6 (7 October 2011)

My personal stand is I believe arab owners should know if their stock are carriers of these diseases. With knowledge they can be eradicated. If I had a stallion who was used for covering I would test before he covered his first mare. I do have a vested interest as I own two purebred arabs.

I have no axe to grind as I don't show. I am looking from the standpoint of a devotee of the breed who only has their long term health, naturally good & human loving mentality, & future at heart.


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## Amymay (29 November 2011)

Well it seems that someone is now going to try and do something about it.

Well done!!


http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/310570.html


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## amandap (29 November 2011)

Agreed well done! 

For those who wish to bury their heads and deny physical abuse of horses goes on in some competitive disciplines... 
Quote from the link
*Besides shanking and whipping, campaigners say that behind the scenes, certain handlers cut underneath the dock and apply astringent to make horses hold their tails higher,*


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## Amymay (29 November 2011)

amandap said:



			For those who wish to bury their heads and deny physical abuse of horses goes on in some competitive disciplines... 
Quote from the link
*Besides shanking and whipping, campaigners say that behind the scenes, certain handlers cut underneath the dock and apply astringent to make horses hold their tails higher,*

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Nasty B&st*rds!


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## bensababy (29 November 2011)

I_Am_A_ChristNatch_Pudding said:





Flame_ said:



			Well until the judges start giving out the prizes to arabs that stand there and trot around normally instead if to the ones wired up to boiling point it won't change. 




			Absolutely.



Well I'm suprised nobody has mentioned it before but welsh cob in-hand showing is very similar in that they wind them up as much as possible, especially the stallions. Although its not shown on this clip, its not uncommon to see things thrown up in the air and railingd rattled by the handler's whip to fire the welshies up further.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGQmLJNxVi0&feature=related

I haven't seen a calmly done welsh class for comparisson, but actually at 1.43 on the above video there is a nice cob being trotted out fast, but not messed about, and I think its really pleasing on the eye. 

How different to a county showing class I groomed for a friend with her highland pony. He was very laid back, and didn't show himself off well in trot in hand, so we wound him up as much as we could before she went in the ring. We did a bit too good a job of it, and he cantered a few strides when he first went off into trot. She got placed at the bottom of the line up and the judge told her that that was the reason why. All these welshies and arabs rearing, bucking, cantering instead of trotting should be treated the same, in my opinion. That's how you stop the handlers from wanting to wind them up too much.
		
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I dont know what im more amazed at - the speed the handlers are running or some of the obese horses. But thats a whole different topic.
		
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## partbredpacer (29 November 2011)

Seems like total idiocy to me. The horses weren't spooking or shying *until* the d*ckwad trainers started jerking on their faces and holding whips over their heads! Way to ruin a horse! Great one, coz I'd SO want them to show my horse... ¬¬


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## partbredpacer (29 November 2011)

Another case of idiotic show handling... Apparently the cause of the first horse shying was gingering... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03YcT74h5Mg


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## rhino (29 November 2011)

partbredpacer said:



			Another case of idiotic show handling... Apparently the cause of the first horse shying was gingering... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03YcT74h5Mg

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There are no words...


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## partbredpacer (29 November 2011)

I know, just WHY didn't they get the other horses out the ring when they could have?!?! Mind boggling. Oh and there's also this little clip... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbKPnNLyDfA


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## team barney (29 November 2011)

partbredpacer said:



			Another case of idiotic show handling... Apparently the cause of the first horse shying was gingering... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03YcT74h5Mg

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poor horses 

edited to add, does anyone know the outcome for the horse at the end? it didn't look too good


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## Ladylina83 (29 November 2011)

dominobrown said:



			I have done a lot a showing in hand (with hunters) and if the horse behaved like they would be sent out of the ring. The handlers are winding the horses up into a state, obviously hitting them across the face with a schooling whip and being overly harsh with the yanking.
If you think that this is ok, not that bad and its just 'arabs' then shame on you.
		
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I went to a recent indoor show up north and the part breds and full bred were shown together - the plaited part breds were a whole world away from the way the full breds were shown - all that whooping from the stands to wind them up too ! If we did that in normal showing it would be called outside asistance and we'd be sent out of the ring ! Then in the line up I saw the winning horse het thumped square in the nose I kid you not .... it was winning and the jusdge had its back to them watching someone else what does it really matter if it brings its head down a tuch and stands still 

Crazy business .... I'll stick to trying to force mine to be well behaved thanks


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## Enfys (29 November 2011)

fburton said:



			I've seen an Arab ploughing a field (albeit with a small plough - maybe people can guess where/by whom).
		
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That wouldn't be the good Dr M. K-W would it?  The same ones that race on the flat (although I don't think they do race them anymore) win marathon races and do dressage displays bridleless ?


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## somethingorother (29 November 2011)

Ladylina83 said:



			I went to a recent indoor show up north and the part breds and full bred were shown together - the plaited part breds were a whole world away from the way the full breds were shown - all that whooping from the stands to wind them up too ! If we did that in normal showing it would be called outside asistance and we'd be sent out of the ring ! Then in the line up I saw the winning horse het thumped square in the nose I kid you not .... it was winning and the jusdge had its back to them watching someone else what does it really matter if it brings its head down a tuch and stands still 

Crazy business .... I'll stick to trying to force mine to be well behaved thanks
		
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*it was the horse which came second, the winning horse was quite sensible and was handled very nicely. I've never seen anyone blatently repeatedly slapping their (arab) horse in the face in the ring before. A few people are on a mission to get this person's license revoked and are spreading the word in the arab world not to use them (they are supposedly a producer).


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## stylemichelle21 (29 November 2011)

partbredpacer said:



			Another case of idiotic show handling... Apparently the cause of the first horse shying was gingering... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03YcT74h5Mg

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Wow...what a complete catastrophe.


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## Serenity087 (29 November 2011)

How on EARTH are Judges considering these sorts of animals to be "well shown?"

Oh yeah, cos their hands are so deep inside the competitors pockets they don't notice the blatent cruelty.

This is why I no longer show.


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## midi (29 November 2011)

stylemichelle21 said:



			Wow...what a complete catastrophe.
		
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Indeed and was borderline hideously hilarious just from the sheer stupidty of the people.
Probably would have been prevented if everyone wasn't running around like headless chickens and scaring the poor horses even more,what idiots honestly! 
I hope the horse that fell to the ground was alright.


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## EstherYoung (10 December 2011)

Live coverage from Paris if anyone is interested: http://www.salon-cheval.com/page/live-on-the-web-tv-channel-268.html


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## fburton (10 December 2011)

Blitzenfys said:



			That wouldn't be the good Dr M. K-W would it?  The same ones that race on the flat (although I don't think they do race them anymore) win marathon races and do dressage displays bridleless ?
		
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Correct!


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## somethingorother (15 December 2011)

I was in Paris for the Salon Du Cheval on Sunday for the championships and it wasn't a bad example of Arabian showing really. There was some bagging in the stands, and some of the younger horses were a bit frightened but the atmosphere was quite buzzling anyway. There were a couple of harsh shankers, but they didn't win. There were a couple who thought it was cool to make their horses rear. One of them did win. Didn't see anything bad in the collecting ring either, seemed quite calm actually. 

It's no where near as bad as what i saw at a relatively small show in Aintree, in the Welsh and Arab classes there. 

So hopefully things seem to be moving in the right direction for European Arabian showing


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## Oberon (15 December 2011)

I hope so.


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## Archina (15 December 2011)

shocking behaviour!!


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