# The Grand National :D



## BlizzardBudd (9 April 2011)

i do love this race  the large powerful horses 

really wanted Choc Thornton, Ruby Walsh or AP Macoy to win 
Piraya is a gorg grey too, but probs doesnt have too much chance at its odds. love the one in the white bridle too 


really happy for Ballabriggs and jason Maguire winning though 

who did you guys bet on/want to win??


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## dieseldog (9 April 2011)

Ballabiggs.  Very sad that at least one horse died, was the one at Beechers gone too?


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## LizzyandToddy (9 April 2011)

I picked the winner!
He jumped like a stag, and even after that mistake near the end he picked up for the remainder...
Gutted to see two horses down though. Certainly one looked gone, saw the boards around the other :/


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## BlizzardBudd (9 April 2011)

yes its a shame that at least one did die  hope the other is ok. i am sure they will tell us what happening soon


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## rosie fronfelen (9 April 2011)

LizzyandToddy said:



			I picked the winner!
He jumped like a stag, and even after that mistake near the end he picked up for the remainder...
Gutted to see two horses down though. Certainly one looked gone, saw the boards around the other :/
		
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same here,same type as Red Rum-beautiful horse.


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## hobo (9 April 2011)

Always a tough race you either love it or hate it. But horses can be lost or ill treated anywere. So i do stop for a bit and  watch it very sad for any that are lost.


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## LizzyandToddy (9 April 2011)

Ornais & DoneysGate fatalities,
RIP guys x


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## Alec Swan (9 April 2011)

Apart from the race,  itself,  the funniest part was Richard Pitman calling Hedgehunter,  Hedge C*nter!!  He'll doubtless get some stick for that little gem!!

Two horses lost their lives.  Sad,  but part of jump racing.  RIP and my condolences to those who cared for the fallen on a daily basis,  they will be heartbroken.

Alec.


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## Spudlet (9 April 2011)

Congratulations to the winners, and huge condolences to all connections of the horses that didn't make it

On another note entirely, I feel we should all write to the BBC to strongly encourage more shots of Sam Waley-Cohen with his top off


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## MagicMelon (9 April 2011)

clement82 said:



			i do love this race 

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How can you love it?  2 horses dead.  That make it worth it?


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## Alec Swan (9 April 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			How can you love it?  2 horses dead.  That make it worth it?
		
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No,  it doesn't make it worth it,  it's the risk we run,  when we climb onto the back of a horse.

I see from your sig pics,  assuming that it's you,  that you event.  Am I right?  Do you not run the risk of a fatal accident,  every time that you go across country?  It's the same thing.

Alec.


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## Goya (9 April 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			How can you love it?  2 horses dead.  That make it worth it?
		
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You could say the same about eventing if you feel that way.
Sadly horses lose their lives in all walks of life, even just in the field.It doesn't make it cruel.


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## rosie fronfelen (9 April 2011)

I wonder how many fatalities will happen at Badminton this year, are thesemore acceptable than in racing?


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## proudwilliam (9 April 2011)

I hate it, Today was to hot and the going was too fast.


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## Allykat (9 April 2011)

Brilliant race  and I picked the winner  Condolences to those connected to those that didn't make it.

Remember last year, tho one that refused to budge off the start line? Just a little reminder that you can not make these animals do anything they simply do not want to do


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## Lobelia_Overhill (9 April 2011)

Very sad that two horses died, but it was a cracker of a race, they were well spread out and there were no "pile ups" as have been seen in recent years (especially at the Canal Turn) and a lot of the horses were blowing along pinging the jumps easily...

RIP Donney's Gate and Ornais

Nice to see Claire Balding offering commiserations to all the connections of both horses afterwards


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## angieendurancerider (9 April 2011)

I love wathching the Grand National and all the buildup to the race.
I backed the 2nd Sam Waley-Cohen on Oscar Time which ran a brilliant race.
So sorry for the 2 horses that died, and their owners and trainers.
Unfortunately it happens in National Hunt racing but these are equine athletes and as such are given the best of everything.Better to go doing something they love than up to their necks in s--t!! and uncared for  as happens to many poor horses.


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## amyneave (9 April 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			How can you love it?  2 horses dead.  That make it worth it?
		
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i have to say that i don't like racing because it does seem to cause quite a few deaths, however eventing is the reason i ride, so i can't really say anything. I can understand why people say they love the national and everyone will have a view on these things, but probably in reality neither eventing nor racing, nor many other sports are any more cruel than each other. they all involve a certain amount of risk.


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## lannerch (9 April 2011)

To be fair the national is higher risk than eventing most years do have at least one fatality, it is very unsual for any horses to die at badmington but obviously there is still a risk.

That said I love the national, I do sometimes wonder though if the qualification is difficult enough as it is often outsiders that are the fatatlities ( I know not always ) I must confess though I have no idea of the previous form of the horses that did not make it though.


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## Angua2 (9 April 2011)

from what I have seen both horses had rotational falls.... one broke its back and the other its neck.

RIP Onasis and Doonies gate


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## sleepingdragon10 (9 April 2011)

Spudlet said:



			On another note entirely, I feel we should all write to the BBC to strongly encourage more shots of Sam Waley-Cohen with his top off

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***** yeah, wholeheartedly second, third, and fifty-fourth this


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## knockandy (9 April 2011)

sleepingdragon10 said:



			***** yeah, wholeheartedly second, third, and fifty-fourth this

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Absolutly agree 

I was shocked at the number of photographers/press on the track at the end of the race. They just wouldnt get out of the way!!!!
I really dont think that they should be there. They were activly hindering the jockeys way to the weigh in, until the police horses arrived. 
Surely they shouldnt be milling about when people are trying to do a job? Especially such an important one as cooling these horses down quickly!!!!!!
I usually like Clare Balding, but she was interupting people who were talking and dragging them over for an interview.
I felt it tarred the end of the race somewhat.


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## Millyard Rejects (9 April 2011)

Spudlet said:



			Congratulations to the winners, and huge condolences to all connections of the horses that didn't make it

On another note entirely, I feel we should all write to the BBC to strongly encourage more shots of Sam Waley-Cohen with his top off

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^^^^^^ this!
Was great to see Ginger slating his son! lol but great ride given by the winner.
Shame about the horses that died-never easy to watch that 

Ground looked firm and the pace was quick? wonder if it had been a bit muddier might have slowed them down a bit?

Sam Waley-Cohen- helping racing become very popular on TV methinks?



knockandy said:



			Absolutly agree 

I was shocked at the number of photographers/press on the track at the end of the race. They just wouldnt get out of the way!!!!
I really dont think that they should be there. They were activly hindering the jockeys way to the weigh in, until the police horses arrived. 
Surely they shouldnt be milling about when people are trying to do a job? Especially such an important one as cooling these horses down quickly!!!!!!
I usually like Clare Balding, but she was interupting people who were talking and dragging them over for an interview.
I felt it tarred the end of the race somewhat.
		
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The press were totally stupid? could get into bother preventing him weighing in surely?
I thought Clare was a bit rude, but then thought a few of the racing presenters are going this way these days


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## yj86 (9 April 2011)

one of the photographers on the course captured Dooney's Gate's fall. horrific angle he came down at


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## missponymad (9 April 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			How can you love it?  2 horses dead.  That make it worth it?
		
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i know how can you love it, it is just a waste of a, or in this can two horses life. horses dying does that make it entertainment. i dont think so :O


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## millimoo (9 April 2011)

I'm afraid I'm a wimp and don't watch the race anymore.... But that's my choice, let's face it, as much as I personally don't feel comfortable with it, these horses are bred for this job and it goes with the territory. The daily mail is running a Headline article that has made a lot of emphasis on The falls and protesters etc. The photos are sensationalist to say the least. 
It's so sad about both horses, sympathies to all those connected to them.


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## ponypatter (9 April 2011)

Not many horse die AT badminton, but there are a large number that don't event again.

I event, not making any statement, other than the facts.

People die every year climbing Everest, and we are blessed with the intelligence and independence to stop when we feel necessary. The National is the greatest challenge these horses will ever face and those that compete do so in the pursuit of what they are trained, bred, and love to do. 

That said, I'd never let one of mine run! But mine are currently sleeping soundly in their cotton wool blankets dreaming of morning carrots.


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## Kiribati_uk (10 April 2011)

Will you ever Kop on to yourselves, Peter Toole is in a critical condition in hospital tonight after a terrible fall in the previous chase, I wish him a speedy recovery. 
Yes its very sad that two horses died in the national but after all they are ANIMALS!!! 
I work in racing and I know for a fact that racehorses when in training are looked after alot better than most happy hacker horses, and how many horses break legs in field/hunting/teamchasing????
My heart goes out to the lads/lasses of Ornais and Droneys Gate, the horses looked fab in paddock before the race. Its the worst feeling in the world going back to an empty box.


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## jenbleep (10 April 2011)

knockandy said:



			I usually like Clare Balding, but she was interupting people who were talking and dragging them over for an interview.
I felt it tarred the end of the race somewhat.
		
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That's what she gets paid to do, the BBC only have a certain amount of time to fill so I doubt presenters will wait! It's the same at other events, wait for Badminton in a couple of weeks. It can be uncomfortable to watch but these people are in the public eye and its Clares job to get as much info as she can for the viewers....simples, surely!


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## Over2You (10 April 2011)

I have just read through this thread and watched a replay. I am sick beyond words. *TWO* horse dead, not through accident, but because of sheer and utter greed. The cheers from the crowds continuing to get louder and more excited as two horses lay on the ground in agony - awaiting their final fate. The organisers did not even have the decency to remove the lifeless body of Ornasis, but instead left him wrapped in tarpaulin for all to see. Nor did the BBC show Dooney's Gate an ounce of dignity as they panned their aerial camera over the screens that were supposed to give the horse some privacy. A commentator said: "Majestic Concorde unseats its rider." Not him, but it! Ballabriggs and several of the other finishers could barely walk because they were as exhausted. Brilliant race? It was anything, but brilliant. *TWO HORSES DIED* and a number of others on the verge of collapsing after they had finished!! Oh well, at least Ornasis and Dooney's Gate went doing something they loved. Oh wait, they went doing something *YOU* loved!!

A Grand National of disgrace is what it was.

Rest peacefully poor horses. This includes Inventor who perished on Thursday at Aintree.


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## missponymad (10 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			I have just read through this thread and watched a replay. I am sick beyond words. *TWO* horse dead, not through accident, but because of sheer and utter greed. The cheers from the crowds continuing to get louder and more excited as two horses lay on the ground in agony - awaiting their final fate. The organisers did not even have the decency to remove the lifeless body of Ornasis, but instead left him wrapped in tarpaulin for all to see. Nor did the BBC show Dooney's Gate an ounce of dignity as they panned their aerial camera over the screens that were supposed to give the horse some privacy. A commentator said: "Majestic Concorde unseats its rider." Not him, but it! Ballabriggs and several of the other finishers could barely walk because they were as exhausted. Brilliant race? It was anything, but brilliant. *TWO HORSES DIED* and a number of others on the verge of collapsing after they had finished!! Oh well, at least Ornasis and Dooney's Gate went doing something they loved. Oh wait, they went doing something *YOU* loved!!

A Grand National of disgrace is what it was.

Rest peacefully poor horses. This includes Inventor who perished on Thursday at Aintree.
		
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at last somebody aggrees with me, people say that the horses enjoy racing but look at their faces they just look terrified and they are only running because they are flight animals not because they love it. all horse racing is a discrace it should be banned.its cruel and there is too much cheating with drugs. its cruel horses dont enkoy it and the racehorses dont have a normal life which every horse should have its unfair and just a money making scheme. cruel!!!  them horses died for our entertainment if we all loved horses that much we wouldnt race them!!


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## missponymad (10 April 2011)

sleepingdragon10 said:



			***** yeah, wholeheartedly second, third, and fifty-fourth this

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how can you think about that when two horses died


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## missponymad (10 April 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			How can you love it?  2 horses dead.  That make it worth it?
		
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yeah i know how can people love it. people are syaing your horse could die when your eventing but atleast your horse is happy if it did happen to die. where as the race horses die all stressed out most probably been druged up to make them run faster and jump. horses shouldnt have drugs all horses are natural performers therfore dont need drugs.


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## brighteyes (10 April 2011)

At least get their bloody names right - *Dooneys Gate* and *Ornais*

Sleep well both.

*_slams door_*


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## MillbrookSong (10 April 2011)

missponymad said:



			yeah i know how can people love it. people are syaing your horse could die when your eventing but atleast your horse is happy if it did happen to die. where as the race horses die all stressed out most probably been druged up to make them run faster and jump. horses shouldnt have drugs all horses are natural performers therfore dont need drugs.
		
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quotes like this is why I shouldn't read theses post. Don't know how much above user knows about racing but it's very strict on what you can and can't give horses. You can't make any horse do what it dosnt want to do. Any many race horses do lead normal lives when in training, more normal than many eventers and dressage horses.


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## lannerch (10 April 2011)

missponymad, mad indeed well I find your fluffy post is, you can't really believe what you are posting, unless off course you are very young inwhich case I apologise, and you will learn when you get older.

Racing is heavily regulated and that also means they are very astute in random drug tests to prevent what you describe, so one thing you can be sure off is they are not drugged up to make them run faster and jump!
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink or put it in simple terms just incase it is necessary, you can ride a horse to a fence but you can't make it jump!


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## tristar (10 April 2011)

who remembers one year when three horses died during the cross country at badminton?, it was very wet and lead to the event taking place later.

they did'nt stop it either even after the fatalities


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## vickiejohn (10 April 2011)

Good point about Badminton and the fatalities there..I hate seeing the horses fall,and to have 2 fatalities is beyond awful..my heart goes out to all those connected with the horses.Maybe the organisers at Aintree need to think about the numbers that start at the G.N??..p'haps 40 is too many and that causes issues as well..with pile ups at the 1st lot of fences??
What do other people think??


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## teagreen (10 April 2011)

missponymad said:



			yeah i know how can people love it. people are syaing your horse could die when your eventing but atleast your horse is happy if it did happen to die. where as the race horses die all stressed out most probably been druged up to make them run faster and jump. horses shouldnt have drugs all horses are natural performers therfore dont need drugs.
		
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Race horses are not stressed out. How do you know horses love eventing? 

Drugs are banned in racing. You will find many more drugged horses in your average livery yard, doped up with bute to keep them out of pain because their owner can't bear to let them go. Also, do let me know of which drugs make horses run faster and jump higher, I have a cracking WHP stamp who refuses point blank to jump but if I could find something that MAKES him do it then great!


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## millhouse (10 April 2011)

Rest in peace Dooneys Gate and Ornais.  Very sad.


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## LynneB (10 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			Race horses are not stressed out.
		
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sorry?  Did you see those horses that did finish yesterday?  Not stressed out?  The winner needed oxygen, water both inside and out as he was so desperately dehydrated and he wasn't the only one undergoing such treatment.  to not even be able to be ridden back to the enclosure says it all for me.  

I used to love the National and have watched it every year before anyone says I am a horse racing basher, I am not - but let's not cover up the truth of what happens in some races.

Even his stable lad in an interview after said he was completely dehydrated.  Dehydration causes stress on a body, let alone the other physical effects of finishing that race in that heat when they were taken out at a ridiculous pace from the beginning.


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## amandap (10 April 2011)

Kiribati_uk said:



			Yes its very sad that two horses died in the national but after all they are ANIMALS!!!
		
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I wasn't going to post but wanted to point out that we happen to be animals as well... 

 I can't wait for the day that human athletes have to endure the same husbandry and risk. Perhaps we will then see other animals as our equal and not just as disposible objects that we happen to say and think we love...


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## splurcherfan (10 April 2011)

My goodness, there are some patronising posts on here! This is my first posting and I am afraid it may be controversial as I too am very much against the National.
I found yesterday barbaric tbh and that was without even watching it. 2 beautiful majestic animals died, not in the name of sport I might add, in the name of money, greed and profit.
After there were some needing oxyggen and others wholly dehydrated.
I fail to see (and again my opinion) how the words animal lover and enjoy the national can be used in the same sentence.
Maybe that makes me all fluffy and pink, so be it, I dont like racing, hunting both go against everything  I believe in.


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## teagreen (10 April 2011)

But horses die 'in the name of sport' most weeks, in racing and in other sports. The National is not a one off 'horse killer' - horses die on the flat, in bumpers, over hurdles, over chase fences as well as during eventing, team chasing, showjumping, polo and even showing, to name but a few. 

I have been browsing trainers websites today and came across this, written today by Lucinda Russell, trainer of one of the favourites Silver By Nature, who finished 12th:




			Coming into the yard this morning the atmosphere was a little flat. Tonto had a small cut which Ali, my head girl and I were worried about. Pete Burton from Loch Leven Equine Vets came in to check it and reported that it was fine, clean but bruised. Tonto has been led out for a pick of grass and will nw be allowed to rest.

This slight scare over Tonto has highlighted that the most important thing for us is that he is fine, whether or not he wins the race. It is sad that the Mail On Sunday described the race as 'Carnage', and we feel for the owners whose horses did not come back from the race. Unfortunately horses get killed racing, but also while being ridden in other sports, while in the field and even when in their stables. They are fragile beings and despite huge advances in veterinary technology many of their injuries have a terminal outcome.
		
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Now, doesn't that sound like a trainer who cares first and foremost about the welfare of her beloved horse? Similar comments come from Donald McCain, David Pipe and Paul Nicholls who have all been quick to update on how the horses are this morning, no matter where they finished. Trainers, owners, jockeys and stable staff all love their horses very much - they are not cold, hard beings who throw the horses back into their stables and grumble because they didn't win the big prize. They are grateful that they came home safely. As demonstrated by Lucinda.


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## Caledonia (10 April 2011)

splurcherfan said:



			My goodness, there are some patronising posts on here! This is my first posting and I am afraid it may be controversial as I too am very much against the National.
I found yesterday barbaric tbh and that was without even watching it. 2 beautiful majestic animals died, not in the name of sport I might add, in the name of money, greed and profit.
After there were some needing oxyggen and others wholly dehydrated.
I fail to see (and again my opinion) how the words animal lover and enjoy the national can be used in the same sentence.
Maybe that makes me all fluffy and pink, so be it, I dont like racing, hunting both go against everything  I believe in.
		
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Interesting first post! And your first sentence is a bit pot and kettle!!


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## Caledonia (10 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			I have just read through this thread and watched a replay. I am sick beyond words. *TWO* horse dead, not through accident, but because of sheer and utter greed. The cheers from the crowds continuing to get louder and more excited as two horses lay on the ground in agony - awaiting their final fate. The organisers did not even have the decency to remove the lifeless body of Ornasis, but instead left him wrapped in tarpaulin for all to see. Nor did the BBC show Dooney's Gate an ounce of dignity as they panned their aerial camera over the screens that were supposed to give the horse some privacy. A commentator said: "Majestic Concorde unseats its rider." Not him, but it! Ballabriggs and several of the other finishers could barely walk because they were as exhausted. Brilliant race? It was anything, but brilliant. *TWO HORSES DIED* and a number of others on the verge of collapsing after they had finished!! Oh well, at least Ornasis and Dooney's Gate went doing something they loved. Oh wait, they went doing something *YOU* loved!!

A Grand National of disgrace is what it was.

Rest peacefully poor horses. This includes Inventor who perished on Thursday at Aintree.
		
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Usual sensationalist drivel from you. 

Two horses did not lie on the ground in agony awaiting their fate - Ornais was either dead as he took off, or killed immediately. And how do you suggest they moved the body in the 4 minute window before the field came around again?

Dooney's Gate will have been despatched very quickly - the likelihood of him feeling any pain is negligible - adrenalin and shock will have that one covered for the very short time he was being checked, thanks to Mother Nature. 

Seriously, for someone who supposedly is regularly horrified at racing, you do appear to take a rather excitable and unseemly delight in the fact that horses do sometimes die. 

Don't watch the race if you are so upset.


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## amandap (10 April 2011)

Horses die every day in the name of sport. Horses die everyday due to abuse. Horses die every day due to illness and old age. 
How many humans die in the name of sport in comparison?

Dying in the name of sport doesn't imo absolve us of the responsibility we have to the horses in our care and it certainly doesn't make it right or acceptable. 

I don't want to accept this level of risk for horses anymore, I believe things in the horse industry must change. After all we have a choice in the matter, the horses just do what they are told and trained to do. Does that acceptance from horses allow us to expect or accept for them to die for our entertainment and monetary gain. Not me I'm afraid.


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## Cobbysmum (10 April 2011)

Allykat said:



			Brilliant race  and I picked the winner  Condolences to those connected to those that didn't make it.

Remember last year, tho one that refused to budge off the start line? Just a little reminder that you can not make these animals do anything they simply do not want to do 

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I backed that one lol :-(


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## eeks (10 April 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			How can you love it?  2 horses dead.  That make it worth it?
		
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3- another was killed on Thursday


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## eeks (10 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			I have just read through this thread and watched a replay. I am sick beyond words. *TWO* horse dead, not through accident, but because of sheer and utter greed. The cheers from the crowds continuing to get louder and more excited as two horses lay on the ground in agony - awaiting their final fate. The organisers did not even have the decency to remove the lifeless body of Ornasis, but instead left him wrapped in tarpaulin for all to see. Nor did the BBC show Dooney's Gate an ounce of dignity as they panned their aerial camera over the screens that were supposed to give the horse some privacy. A commentator said: "Majestic Concorde unseats its rider." Not him, but it! Ballabriggs and several of the other finishers could barely walk because they were as exhausted. Brilliant race? It was anything, but brilliant. *TWO HORSES DIED* and a number of others on the verge of collapsing after they had finished!! Oh well, at least Ornasis and Dooney's Gate went doing something they loved. Oh wait, they went doing something *YOU* loved!!

A Grand National of disgrace is what it was.

Rest peacefully poor horses. This includes Inventor who perished on Thursday at Aintree.
		
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Agreed. Shocking how this can happen and be accepted as normality. 3 horses dead this year. 33 dead at Aintree since 2000. 2004 being the only year without any direct fatalities.

We all know that sports in general can be risky- whoever is taking part, horse, dog, human etc. There is no way to eliminate all risk and still have any sport left. However, it seems to me that the national should be banned as the risk is so ridiculously high. No other sport or sporting event has such a high number of fatalities.

Still. We all know nothing will happen about it until a jockey finally gets killed on the track- then perhaps they'll take a good hard look at the death toll and finally do something about it...


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## Caledonia (10 April 2011)

eeks said:



			Agreed. Shocking how this can happen and be accepted as normality. 3 horses dead this year. 33 dead at Aintree since 2000. 2004 being the only year without any direct fatalities.

We all know that sports in general can be risky- whoever is taking part, horse, dog, human etc. There is no way to eliminate all risk and still have any sport left. However, it seems to me that the national should be banned as the risk is so ridiculously high. No other sport or sporting event has such a high number of fatalities.
		
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These figures you quote do NOT pertain to the National course - at least get your facts straight.


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## Judgemental (10 April 2011)

One needs to get all this in perspective bearing in mind a collective figure of about 8,000,000 (eight million) horses were killed during WWI from both sides.

In many instances cut down by machine gun fire, wounded and laying on the battle field for several days, before being finally shot.

The horses killed in the Grand National, or at any racecourse, either die instantly or are humanely shot within a few moments of the extent of the injuries being determined.


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## melanie99 (10 April 2011)

The grand national is a lot safer than it was 20 years ago. I think some horses are put into the national before they are really ready for it and some are just unlucky. If a horse hasnt had good form before the race eg falls or pulled up then I think its unfair to run them in national. Rotational falls can occur in eventing etc and as with all falls its how they land that determines their fate. Thats my opinion anyway.


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## HashRouge (10 April 2011)

Judgemental said:



			One needs to get all this in perspective bearing in mind a collective figure of about 8,000,000 (eight million) horses were killed during WWI from both sides.

In many instances cut down by machine gun fire, wounded and laying on the battle field for several days, before being finally shot.
.
		
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I'm sorry but this is a ludicrous argument. You do know that WW1 started almost 100 years ago and that horses are no longer used in war, right? I mean sure, tell people they need to put things into perspective, but not by using a completely irrelevant point of comparison!


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## lexx (10 April 2011)

http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/


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## Kadastorm (10 April 2011)

I cant believe the argument is still going on.

 Horses can fall anytime, no matter what speed, height of fence etc etc.

For example, a couple of years ago, i was jumping a course of 2'3 - 2'6 jumps in our sand school. I approached a fence, in a nice canter, took off on what looked and felt like a perfect stride and next minute, me and the poor horse were on the floor. he had hit it, the blocks fell but so did he.
(me and horse were fine)


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## Caledonia (10 April 2011)

lexx said:



http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/



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Get the percentages runners to fallers - this is inflammatory manipulation of statistics. 

As for 'raced to death' I know several people who lost horses listed on this site - these animals wanted for nothing, and were so adored. 

This site makes me sick.


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## Kadastorm (10 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			Get the percentages runners to fallers - this is inflammatory manipulation of statistics. 

As for 'raced to death' I know several people who lost horses listed on this site - these animals wanted for nothing, and were so adored. 

This site makes me sick.
		
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Me too


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## shirleyno2 (10 April 2011)

I saw a rotational fall in showjumping this weekend, yes horse was fine but he proper landed on his head and only jumping 1.10m. It is sad to have lost horses at Aintree  but certainly the first horse out the back and not hampered in any way. As both falls were early in the race then exhaustion surely couldn't play a part?


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## Ditchjumper2 (10 April 2011)

There is a poor young jockey lying in an induced coma in hospital with a brain bleed.  That is tragic and I hope he makes a full recovery.  The death of the 2 horses in the National was yes very sad, and yes they are all loved and cared for by all their connections. But whichever ever way you look at it a human life is more important.  

When I had to have one of my first horses put down I was unable to go in the yard or field to the others for about 10 days - just couldn't do it.   A few years later I found my mare dead in the stable on Monday morning.  Yes I was upset but it was not the same.  Why.....well I was returning to work for the first time that morning after cancer and all the associated treatment that goes with it. It makes you value human life.....I realised that you can always replace a horse but you can't a human.     I don't love my horses any less, but you have to remember that humans come first.  

Some things need to be put into perspective.  The Mail on Sunday online is sick for its sensational headline and photos.


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## melanie99 (10 April 2011)

Ditchjumper2 said:



			There is a poor young jockey lying in an induced coma in hospital with a brain bleed.  That is tragic and I hope he makes a full recovery.  The death of the 2 horses in the National was yes very sad, and yes they are all loved and cared for by all their connections. But whichever ever way you look at it a human life is more important.  

When I had to have one of my first horses put down I was unable to go in the yard or field to the others for about 10 days - just couldn't do it.   A few years later I found my mare dead in the stable on Monday morning.  Yes I was upset but it was not the same.  Why.....well I was returning to work for the first time that morning after cancer and all the associated treatment that goes with it. It makes you value human life.....I realised that you can always replace a horse but you can't a human.     I don't love my horses any less, but you have to remember that humans come first.  

Some things need to be put into perspective.  The Mail on Sunday online is sick for its sensational headline and photos.
		
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You're so right. Think thats the point everyone is missing. Sad about horses but tragic about jockey and thoughts to his family. Well done ditchjumper for beating cancer, hope you are well now, even though I dont know you.


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## happyhacking:) (10 April 2011)

im not a fan of racing if im honest but only because it does not really interest me in the way other equine sports do.  but i dont think its cruel or barbaric as people seem to be implying
we have been fortunate this week in having some rather warmer weather than we have been used to in recent months and so its hardly a great suprise that the horses were more tired than usual. as for them looking stressed thats what happens when you run on adrenalin. yes its sad that two horses died but they both died doing their job at the peak of their careers not crippled with arthritis stuck in a 12 by 12 box and in a lot of pain for a long time. 
rotational falls occur in all jumping disaplins whether we like it or not we can do all we can to reduce the number of falls but there will always be some element of risk involved. the same thing could have happened out on a hack jumping a fallen tree ect.
 if my horse was going to die due to a rotational fall i would much prefer them to go on a racetrack where there is a vet on hand immedietly rather than miles from anywhere with a horse in agony.


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## Pony_Puzz (10 April 2011)

Well done to Ballabriggs, was a very good race and I went for Oscar Time. I was going to put a pound each way but decided to go all out on the win... what a mistake!

Its a shame about Dooneys Gate and Ornais, RIP and my thoughts go to the owners and carers. As horrid as it was, Ornais seemed to go quickly as he fell onto his head (broken neck probably) and didn't move as the camera continued. I felt more for Dooneys Gate as he hit the fence straight on and rotated but you saw him move his head as the camera continued on. Think that was why the boards were up.
However I do believe that they go doing something that they quite enjoy as they do all get excited beforehand like kids going to the theme park and every sport has risks, sometimes I think the publicity on the national just highlights the fatalities more.


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## indie999 (10 April 2011)

Hi

On holiday we took our sons to the races and one horse dropped down dead, it went wobbly and just went! I am assuming it had a heart attack but I was impressed at how quickly and efficiently they removed the bodies! Although shocking, it was obvious they had this whole thing down to a fine art with lots of practice.

But I dont like the grand national and get fed up with comments about they dont have to do it if they didnt want to?..ur I thought horses were naturally herd animals and will follow any way(perhaps I am stupid too to think this)? Looks like a huge stampede to me!

At the end of the day its a money spinner and perhaps I am a hypocrite too as a happy hacker as I am sure my horse would rather I wasnt sitting on its back and happier on a hill somewhere.

Perhaps a more knowledgeable person of the racing world would know do more horses in the Grand National die at the Chair and bechers brook jumps, even I remember as a child these two jumps 40+ years ago claimed horses. Money Root of all evil its about ££££££££££!


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## caitlineloise (11 April 2011)

If they didn't want to run they wouldn't it's not like pretty pony pet's.

I may sound a bit controversial but I don't really care, cos at the end of the day an opinion is an opinion.

Two horses died doing what they wanted to do.

However and this is not contradictory because the national IS the national. I don't think they should enter horses that haven't got a chance in hell.

Thats the HUMANS fault, not there's.

And even the best horse can be brought down in the national think about that.

(I've watched 'Dark Ivy' fall and many others)


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## caitlineloise (11 April 2011)

I didn't have time to edit, just wanted to say I'm not being flippant about the horses dying, but, it happens in a lot of races you just don't here about.

The GN is just a high profile race


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## Over2You (11 April 2011)

Ditchjumper2 said:



			There is a poor young jockey lying in an induced coma in hospital with a brain bleed.  That is tragic and I hope he makes a full recovery.  The death of the 2 horses in the National was yes very sad, and yes they are all loved and cared for by all their connections. But whichever ever way you look at it a human life is more important.  

When I had to have one of my first horses put down I was unable to go in the yard or field to the others for about 10 days - just couldn't do it.   A few years later I found my mare dead in the stable on Monday morning.  Yes I was upset but it was not the same.  Why.....well I was returning to work for the first time that morning after cancer and all the associated treatment that goes with it. It makes you value human life.....I realised that you can always replace a horse but you can't a human.     I don't love my horses any less, but you have to remember that humans come first.  

Some things need to be put into perspective.  The Mail on Sunday online is sick for its sensational headline and photos.
		
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As mentioned in a previous reply, we are animals too!! We evolved from apes - why do you think we have redundant tail bones? All life is equal in my eyes. That is why I do not eat meat and hate racing with an absolute passion. You can harp on about other sports having their fatalities, but no other claims as many lives as racing. As for horses doing something they 'love'. That is a fairy story you pro-racing lot like to tell yourselves. Several top trainers have admitted that they have 'harnessed their fear'. This can be confirmed in an episode of that series Martin Clunes did about horses. Racing is all about exploiting the horses natural instinct to run with the herd and how they react to predators. All for money, ego boosting and to have a nice shiny trophy on the mantle piece. Certainly not for the love of the horse. 

Thank goodness the Mail on Sunday revealed some truths about the horrific event. They also named every single horse to have perished at the meeting since 2000. Do any of your pro-racing sites have a memorial page remembering the dead? Good on you Daily Mail!


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## Ditchjumper2 (11 April 2011)

Thank you melanie99 - it certainly puts everything in perspective when you have had cancer.

Caitlineloise - I so agree. There are horses dying at racetracks all over the country.  If 2 died at Market Rasen in one race I doubt the Great British public would even hear about it and there certainly wouldn't be the furore there is about the National.  It is sad but it is life.  

Over2you - I respect you are entitled to your opinion but suspect you live in an unreal world. Life is a risk whether for horses or humans and part of life is death. No one likes to see horses die but it happens.  We deal and move on.  Doesn't mean we enjoy it.


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## rosie fronfelen (11 April 2011)

For heavens sake, these GN threads have been done to death- is it possible that it can all move on now?


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## Amymay (11 April 2011)

Just to put my two penneth in.

Enough now.  Let's hope the authorities take a long hard look at the race and do some radical overhauling.

Less horses (maximum of 20), no handicapping, stricter qualifiying for horse and jockey and a look at the fences.

I like others get tremendously excited watching this race - but I really do feel that it is time to change things.

Oh, and the winning jockey - as devastating as it might be - should have the win taken off him I'm afraid.  In my view you don't get the right to the win if you immediately have a race ban impossed on you for whip misuse.


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## Flicker (11 April 2011)

amymay said:



			Just to put my two penneth in.

Enough now.  Let's hope the authorities take a long hard look at the race and do some radical overhauling.

Less horses (maximum of 20), no handicapping, stricter qualifiying for horse and jockey and a look at the fences.

I like others get tremendously excited watching this race - but I really do feel that it is time to change things.

Oh, and the winning jockey - as devastating as it might be - should have the win taken off him I'm afraid.  In my view you don't get the right to the win if you immediately have a race ban impossed on you for whip misuse.  

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Well said amymay


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## Bug2007 (11 April 2011)

missponymad said:



			at last somebody aggrees with me, people say that the horses enjoy racing but look at their faces they just look terrified and they are only running because they are flight animals not because they love it. all horse racing is a discrace it should be banned.its cruel and there is too much cheating with drugs. its cruel horses dont enkoy it and the racehorses dont have a normal life which every horse should have its unfair and just a money making scheme. cruel!!!  them horses died for our entertainment if we all loved horses that much we wouldnt race them!!
		
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Living in the land of make believe.
I am not totally for the national as i do believe too many enter and it's a little long and big....but having said that i'm not against it either.
Race horses aren't drugged they are highly regulated.
I also don't believe you have ever sat on a horse in trianing....if you had then you'd know that they love what they do and drag your arms out to get to the fence.
Any horse that doesn't enjoy it, will never make it as far as the National, they are the horses alot of us have at home. The ones that either weren't good enough or just didn't enjoy racing. 

As you know you can't force some of our horses over a 2'6" pole if it doen't want too, so you think you can force one over a hedge as big as the ones at the National.

Facts before you gob off.

Really sad for the horses that died. Like I said i sit on the fence on this one.


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## Amymay (11 April 2011)

missponymad said:



			at last somebody aggrees with me, people say that the horses enjoy racing but look at their faces they just look terrified and they are only running because they are flight animals not because they love it. all horse racing is a discrace it should be banned.its cruel and there is too much cheating with drugs. its cruel horses dont enkoy it and the racehorses dont have a normal life which every horse should have its unfair and just a money making scheme. cruel!!!  them horses died for our entertainment if we all loved horses that much we wouldnt race them!!
		
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What are you basing your accusations of drug abuse on, missponymad?.

Have you ever worked with or been around race horses?


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## KautoStar1 (11 April 2011)

the loss of any horse in racing is very upsetting but it is a fact of any sport that involves horses that there is a risk attached.  The key is to try and minimise those risks and racing reviews and takes very seriously these incidents.
Personally I would like to see less horses in the GN, ground that is always on the softer side of good to help slow them down a little (modern watering systems can easily manage this) and perhaps removing one or two fences, especially in the 1st straight, were its always a mad dash.  

I also think its time for the media to start taking more responsibility - some of the headlines have been nothing short of scandalous scare mongering and the animal rights people are having a field day with the "racing uneducated" general public.  In addition, the BBC have a lot to answer for.  I know it was impossible to remove the bodies of both horses while the race was on, but surely with modern technology it would have been possible to change camera angles so that we did not have to see the bodies of the 2 stricken horses.  particularly that of Ornais, left covered by a tarpaulin.  Or why could he not be screened off as well.    GMTV showed a picture this morning of the moment of impact (not sure which horse) - WHY ?  what is to be gained from that ?   its not about hiding or sanitising the truth,  we have a right to know, but sometimes these graphic images are just sensationalising for the sake of it.

Thoughts with the connections of both horses and also for Peter Toole.  We should remember how brave these horses and riders are, not just on GN day, but every day.


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## Mithras (11 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			That is a fairy story you pro-racing lot like to tell yourselves. Several top trainers have admitted that they have 'harnessed their fear'. This can be confirmed in an episode of that series Martin Clunes did about horses. !
		
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I'm sorry, but I cannot take someone whose views are based on a one-off TV programme seriously when compared to professionals who work in the industry.  It gives the impression you have never been near a racehorse in your life and no next to nothing about their training and preperation.



Over2You said:



			Racing is all about exploiting the horses natural instinct to run with the herd and how they react to predators. All for money, ego boosting and to have a nice shiny trophy on the mantle piece. Certainly not for the love of the horse. !
		
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Anything we do with horses is about exploiting horse's natural instincts.  Even keeping them in shared fields.  Competition provides the medium to test our skills with horses in a controlled, regulated environment.



Over2You said:



			Thank goodness the Mail on Sunday revealed some truths about the horrific event. They also named every single horse to have perished at the meeting since 2000. Do any of your pro-racing sites have a memorial page remembering the dead? Good on you Daily Mail!
		
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I feel it necessary to point out that the Daily Mail is fond of printing photographs of the world's smallest horses, often standing next to a Shire.  IMHO breeding genetic faults to produce "minature" horses for human amusement, which will never be able to lead a normal healthy horse's life, is so cruel it is off the scale.  Yet the Daily Mail often prints such photos as being cute and thereby encourages the attitude towards animals that they are here for human amusement, as long as that human amusement meets the sentimentality test.


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## Over2You (11 April 2011)

Mithras said:



			I'm sorry, but I cannot take someone whose views are based on a one-off TV programme seriously when compared to professionals who work in the industry.  It gives the impression you have never been near a racehorse in your life and no next to nothing about their training and preperation.

*You clearly know (not no) nothing about me. My Guy would have been dead years ago if the racing industry had gotten its way. He was one of about twenty being auctioned off at a sale frequented by killer buyers. He is a happy, healthy and extremely good natured horse. It makes me sick that your beloved industry could not have cared less about his fate. I also trust you cannot take the viewpoint of a top trainer (an industry professional and whose name escapes me) seriously too.*


Anything we do with horses is about exploiting horse's natural instincts.  Even keeping them in shared fields.  Competition provides the medium to test our skills with horses in a controlled, regulated environment.

*A controlled, regulated environment? Do not make me laugh. Sending them hurtling over gargantuan obstacles from a gallop is only asking for trouble. Exhausting them to the point that they:

A. Die of heart attacks.

B. Need to be dismounted immediately after crossing the finishing line.

C. Need oxygen.*

I feel it necessary to point out that the Daily Mail is fond of printing photographs of the world's smallest horses, often standing next to a Shire.  IMHO breeding genetic faults to produce "minature" horses for human amusement, which will never be able to lead a normal healthy horse's life, is so cruel it is off the scale.  Yet the Daily Mail often prints such photos as being cute and thereby encourages the attitude towards animals that they are here for human amusement, as long as that human amusement meets the sentimentality test.

* I read the report on the National in yesterday's edition of the Mail on Sunday very carefully. It only reported some FACTS that you would rather the "uneducated public" know nothing about.*

Click to expand...

Your 'sport' revolts me!!


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## minesadouble (11 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			Thank goodness the Mail on Sunday revealed some truths about the horrific event. They also named every single horse to have perished at the meeting since 2000. Do any of your pro-racing sites have a memorial page remembering the dead? Good on you Daily Mail!
		
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http://www.theracingforum.co.uk/horse-racing-forum/memorials/


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## EAST KENT (11 April 2011)

How about acknowledging the amazing McCain family for training the winners of FIVE Grand Nationals,and recognising Ballabrig for being a magnificent stamp of the old fashioned deep girthed Chaser that he is.

 An incredible training record and an amazing horse as well.


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## Over2You (11 April 2011)

Ditchjumper2 said:



			Thank you melanie99 - it certainly puts everything in perspective when you have had cancer.

Caitlineloise - I so agree. There are horses dying at racetracks all over the country.  If 2 died at Market Rasen in one race I doubt the Great British public would even hear about it and there certainly wouldn't be the furore there is about the National.  It is sad but it is life.  

Over2you - I respect you are entitled to your opinion but suspect you live in an unreal world. Life is a risk whether for horses or humans and part of life is death. No one likes to see horses die but it happens.  We deal and move on.  Doesn't mean we enjoy it.
		
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I most certainly do not live in an 'unreal world'. I live in one where people are fuelled by greed and the never-ending need to be in the spotlight. They strive for those things in just about every walk of life. Be it at home, in the workplace or in sport. I can accept that. However, I lose ALL respect when they put the lives of innocent creatures on the line for their personal gain. I will never be able to articulate how stunned I am that some of you self professed animal lovers find racing acceptable. It is cruel and barbaric. On par with the likes of bull/dog fighting. Where animals regularly die in the name of 'entertainment'. 

Horses falling and dying in racing are not accidents. A horse slipping in the field is an accident. A horse tripping on a rock is an accident. A horse dying after a fall due to being sent over a behemoth of a hedge from speeds of up to (or over) 30mph is no bloody accident. It is a preventable inevitability. Do not try to brush off the deaths as accidents. Accidents are more often than not just that. Fatalities in racing will *ALWAYS* be preventable!!


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## Over2You (11 April 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			How about acknowledging the amazing McCain family for training the winners of FIVE Grand Nationals,and recognising Ballabrig for being a magnificent stamp of the old fashioned deep girthed Chaser that he is.

 An incredible training record and an amazing horse as well.
		
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The amazing McCain family? A family that ritualistically sends its discards to Potters? Nothing amazing about them!!


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## rosie fronfelen (11 April 2011)

I do so agree EK, i picked Ballabriggs cos of his similar stamp to Red Rum and his wonderful turn out,does anyone else have any positive to say on this beleaguered race?


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## rosie fronfelen (11 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			The amazing McCain family? A family that ritualistically sends its discards to Potters? Nothing amazing about them!!
		
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where do you suggest they go?some bloody bin end sales or what?


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## olop (11 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			The amazing McCain family? A family that ritualistically sends its discards to Potters? Nothing amazing about them!!
		
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What a stupid thing to say - would rather they sent there "discards" to potters than leave them to an un-certain future!

Another person who clearly doesnt know how the racing industry works


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## Over2You (11 April 2011)

olop said:



			What a stupid thing to say - would rather they sent there "discards" to potters than leave them to an un-certain future!

Another person who clearly doesnt know how the racing industry works 

Click to expand...

An uncertain future where they could very easily be given a wonderful home like mine? They do not give the poor creatures a chance of a second lease of life. I would much rather they be given the opportunity to be a well cared for and much loved family pet than a piece of meat.


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## rosie fronfelen (11 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			An uncertain future where they could very easily be given a wonderful home like mine? They do not give the poor creatures a chance of a second lease of life. I would much rather they be given the opportunity to be a well cared for and much loved family pet than a piece of meat.
		
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You are totally out of touch with reality, how many do you think go through Potters?


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## Amymay (11 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			An uncertain future where they could very easily be given a wonderful home like mine? They do not give the poor creatures a chance of a second lease of life. I would much rather they be given the opportunity to be a well cared for and much loved family pet than a piece of meat.
		
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Ah, so are we to assume then that Mr Potter has your number to let you know when he has some racehorses comming in for you to buy off him - or that you frequent the sales where many of these rejects go?

And if not you - then who exactly do you think is going to buy these horses?  Joe Public?  Because I don't exactly see people queing up for ex-racers, do you??


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## MurphysMinder (11 April 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			How about acknowledging the amazing McCain family for training the winners of FIVE Grand Nationals,and recognising Ballabrig for being a magnificent stamp of the old fashioned deep girthed Chaser that he is.

 An incredible training record and an amazing horse as well.
		
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Totally agree, I have always backed McCains horses, since the days of Red Rum, would have done quite well if I had staked more than £1.  Anyone who thinks trainers don't care about their horses should have seen the pride on Gingers face when Red Rum was at many of his public appearances after hsi retirement.


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## MurphysMinder (11 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			The amazing McCain family? A family that ritualistically sends its discards to Potters? Nothing amazing about them!!
		
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I would think it highly unlikely they send them all the way to Potters when Turners is just down the road!  And if they do send them there, at least they are ensuring they don't end their days dumped in a field with insufficient food and shelter.


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## jaquelin (11 April 2011)

A couple of thoughts:
1.Horses do not run for love-
2. How, exactly do the runners qualify - some seemed pretty amateur to me
3. It looked awfully crowded at Becher's and I suspect some of the carnage there was due to horses getting in each other's way - at least in eventing horses go around one at a time.
Love & peace


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## Ditchjumper2 (11 April 2011)

rosiefronfelen said:



			where do you suggest they go?some bloody bin end sales or what?
		
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I think Over2you lives in an unreal world. Far better for any unwanted horse to be put down rather than hawked around from pillar to post. To me that is being responsible.......there are far too many people these days who think "retiring" a horse by dumping it in a field is a good idea.


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## firm (11 April 2011)

I normally do enjoy racing but this years GN was sad to watch.  But I can't believe the people who say horses do not run for the love of it
Have you ever taken your horse to the beach & turned him at the headland & let him gallop flat out all the way back?  Do it more than once and most horses are so excited in anticipating the run in a big open space, even better if with their friends. I know people who won't take their horses to the beach because they can't control them as the horses are so pleased to get an opportuntiy to gallop in an open space with others.  
Or sat on a plunging horse who is desperate to start a XC or PtoP 
How often do leisure horses get the chance to gallop as a herd in an open space? My horses live out 24/7 I never see them galloping in fear - they gallop together for the sheer enjoyment of it including the two ex racers I have.  I am rambling a bit but what I am trying to say is racehorses maybe get more chance to express themselves as horses than  those say stuck in a school doing dressage.

Both my ex racers were well cared for racing and have had great second careers.


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## Dobiegirl (11 April 2011)

Ive been reading the comments on the Racing Post site and some of them are quite good.

Here are my favourites.

1 Move fence 1 & 2 nearer the start. This would slow up the runners before the fence.

2 Make Bechers Brook wider as in widen the course. This would give horses room to manouvere and stop them being unsighted. This is 1 fence where  there was a horse fatality.

3 Make it a qualifying requirement that horses must have won or  been placed up to 3rd in a 3mile chase. The idea being steadier horses rather than speed merchants.

The general consensus of opinions is that they set off too fast and speed kills this was the 2nd fastest time in its running.

One unusual comment which I had to laugh at was to have a speed car go round and horses are not allowed to overtake until the second circuit.

As a NH fanatic I do not like to see horses die but Im sure the authorities will look at every aspect of the race and try to make it safer without losing the spectacle of the Grand National.


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## laz (11 April 2011)

At the end of the day if you dont like it dont watch it.  Everyone has opinions on everything i had a friend that thought mounted games was cruel but that was her opinion.  Accidents happen in racing and all equine sports am sure that the grooms , trainers etc are very sad at this moment whose horses died.  They have been left with empty stables and having to take their tack of a dead horse. I have been to some of the big racing studs in Ireland and these animals are pampered beyond belief.

Anyway well done to Ballabriggs what a cracking horse and to Don't Push it from coming from the back.


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## sun-shine (11 April 2011)

To those who say the horses run the race for the love of it - please  horses have no concept of risk. That aspect is put entirely in the hands of the humans that own ride or train them. We have the ability to determine and predict what situation we place those animals in. They may enjoy running, they may enjoy jumping, but do not try and suggest they have any idea of what they are being asked to do in terms of the danger of that course. They are not willing participants. If you are happy to place an animal in a situation like the grand national fine, on your conscience be it - but don't pretend for a moment that the horse has _any_ choice in the matter.


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## Starbucks (11 April 2011)

Would you have them not even exist to begin with then?  Without racing, you have no racehorses.  If the national was banned it would only come down to the next worst fatality meeting to get a bashing.

Then if racing was banned what would be the next?  Eventing?  Then what?


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## EAST KENT (12 April 2011)

The `Chasing owner is a completely different person to those owning flat horses.There is very little to be earned,the horses are greatly  loved characters, many of them go on to be hunters ..often out on permanent loan from the "evil" trainer,who keeps a friendly eye out for his old horse throughout his life.  
   The horses light up when in work ,you can see that fantastic "look of eagles" as their adrenalin starts up,they are not for a demoralising life in a muddy field with a novice well meaning keeper. If a trainer chooses to end a horses life humanely to avoid some numpty owning the horse and giving it less than it demands and deserves..well that is his business,his alone,and a sad but responsible decision.
   Many of these `chasers are in fact ex flat racers given the chance of a good life for some more years,and beyond that another job ,if suitable,as a hunter.If they are not suitable,by temperament or unsoundness ,then a quick humane end is far better than being mismanaged by some fluffy numpty.


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## luckyoldme (12 April 2011)

I watched the race. I knew when the horses paraded that some of them would not be coming home. Anyone who has watched the race over the years knows the same. The problem is exactly that.... we know before the race that there almost certainly will be equine fatalities which does sugest that for whatever reason it is statisticly a risky business. 
Personally as a sentimental horse lover I think the risk for this race is too high but then again as a sentimental horse lover and someone who once worked at the very edge of the raccing industry i feel the whole industry leaves a lot to be desired. 
I think the whole would you rather the horses didnt exist argument is laughable as i cant imagine anyone would loose sleep worrying about a horse that doesnt exist.


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## KautoStar1 (12 April 2011)

these 2 pieces in the racing post today say it all to me.  As usual, a brilliantly written report by Alistair Down.  A man who knows what he's talking about.


By Alastair Down 11:05AM 12 APR 2011

IT IS simple to attack jump racing, infinitely more complex and challenging to defend it.

Saturdays Grand National has provoked a veritable storm of protest. Some of the outrage has been from the usual suspects marching under the banner of animal rights  whatever they may be. But a large chunk of the disgust has come from the everyday man and woman in the street, and their legitimate concerns have to be taken seriously by the racing industry, because in the final analysis we continue to ply our trade with the consent and tolerance of the general public.

And it is no use jump racing holding its nose and ducking the stark realities. Since 1988the Grand National has killed 20 horses and the spectacle of two of them quite literally laid out for eight million people to see on Saturday has stuck broadside in the craw of many people, not least certain newspaper editors or TV and radio stations hungry for controversy.

Every single argument about the legitimacy and morality of jump racing can be boiled down to one extremely uncomfortable, even disturbing, question and that is: Are you prepared to accept the death of horses as part of your sport?

We will take as read all the usual caveats and qualifications about constantly doing our damnedest to prevent horses being killed, and please lets dispense with our customary refuge in expressions such as casualties or horses paying the ultimate
price.

I can play with fancy words better than most but this is not the time  on Saturday some people were revolted by the sight of dead horses and they are levelling the potentially fatal charge that the Grand National in particular and, therefore, jump racing in general is cruel past the point of acceptability.

Nor is it any use to rail against the cheap sensationalism of the coverage or the twisted logic of critics for whom regard for the truth is an easily avoided inconvenience. There is no point trying to have a sane debate with someone who compares jump racing with bullfighting except to make the small point that on the racecourse everything humanly possible is done to avoid death whereas in the bullring it is fully intended to bring it about.

So we must address the burning question. If your answer is, No, I am not prepared toaccept the death of horses as part of my sport, then jump racing is not for you because it is a high-risk, physically dangerous activity in which fatalities are inevitable.

A lot of the problemis that jump racings deaths are extremely high profile. As a society we hide death away. We kill hundreds of millions of animals every year and I could show you certain modern farming methods, or the most scrupulously run abattoir, and have you puking in revulsion within minutes.

But such horrors are all hidden from view with the result that someone apparently outraged by Aintree would make no connection with their own contribution to animal carnage on a colossal scale whensitting down later with a chicken sandwich or a juicy steak.

And of course I am as upset as the next man by confronting death. A stricken animal up close is a terrible sight to behold and I couldnt put my hand on my heart and say that if I had to face it time and again there might not come a tipping point when I could take it no more.

But I am prepared to accept the death of horses as part of my sport. The worst part for sure and the one that serves up jumpings vilest moments. And is my conscience clear?
Yes. Is it untroubled? Most assuredly not.

Everybody loathes the death of a horse. But fatalities are just a fraction of what jump racing is about and I would behonest enough to argue that, in an increasingly sanitised, risk-denuded society, the omnipresence of danger lies at the very kernel of its appeal.

I have no argument with those who disapprove of jump racing. But with those who seek toemasculate it beyond recognition or ban it entirely I am implacably at odds.

Those who love jump racing hail from every geographical corner and inhabit all social strata of these islands. They are Everyman and they are legion.

When they make their way to Cheltenham or to Aintree it is not without trepidation of what they may see. But, taken in the round, they find something about the sight, sound and spectacle of jump racing that is spiritually uplifting and nourishing to the soul in a way that no other sport comes close to providing.

And, of course, a little learning is a dangerous thing. How many of those currently howling at jumpings gate have ever set foot ona racecourse or tried even to begin to understand it before condemning it? There is no tyranny as great as ignorance.

I know many folk, the young in particular, who despite not being ardent racing fans try never to miss the festival because as a feast of very human joy they have found no other occasion in their year to match it.

And that joy is nurtured, raised and rammed tumultuously home into the human breast by an almost primal passion for the jumps horse in full cry. And when one is killed, is it merely marked by some flitting note of regret, or an uncaring shoulder shrug?

Not a bit of it, it is the stuff of genuine remorse, yet still a price worth the paying. The truth is that jump racing gives ordinary people avenues into zones of emotional experience that are increasingly hard to replicate elsewhere. That may render it unfashionable and sometimes uncomfortable, but it doesnt erode my conviction that it is utterly defensible andalmost wholly admirable.




AND  


THE BHA on Monday hit back at critics of Saturday's John Smith's Grand National, in which two horses died, launching a staunch defence of the showpiece race and its safety measures.


Ornais and Dooneys Gate were the two horses fatally injured, meaning two of the contest's 30 famous fences were bypassed, while the winner, Ballabriggs, was immediately dismounted by jockey Jason Maguire - in accordance with a pre-race directive from the BHA.

The scenes sparked an outbreak of criticism from animal rights groups and the national press, but Tim Morris, the BHA's director of equine science and welfare, said Saturday's events demonstrated the welfare improvements.

"The Grand National is a difficult race and was run this year on an unseasonably warm day," Morris said in a statement on Monday night.

"Because of that, all the jockeys had been instructed prior to the race to dismount from their horses as soon as the race was over in order to allow the team of handlers and vets to get water to the horses so as to prevent overheating [which is a main cause of collapse], as it is when people run and race over long distances.

"This preventative action happened to all the horses, not just the winner, and shows welfare improvements in action. No horse collapsed.


Tim Morris: BHA measures are "welfare in action"

"The introduction of the run-outs, which were used for the first time this year, were introduced in 2009, the year after the horse McKelvey died.

"They were introduced after much discussion, which included the RSPCA, as a welfare measure to allow loose horses to be able to go round the obstacles, and not, as has beenreported, to prevent the race from being voided. Again this is welfare in action."

Morris singled out animal rights pressure group Animal Aid for criticism, saying: "They are not an animal welfare group, as many newspapers and news channels have been misinformed.

"They are an animal rights organisation against the use of animals for sport and leisure. As such their clearly stated agenda is to ban racing. 

If racing didnt exist, this would have a huge impact on tens of thousands of thoroughbreds across the UK; it would effectively mean that owners and trainers wouldnt be able to look after their horses and the breed would disappear, as would a large part of British life."


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## Alec Swan (12 April 2011)

A well balanced take,  KautoStar1.

One small point,  would others consider that as Beechers Brook was bypassed on the second circuit,  and a second fence,  as well,  that had they not been,  then the injuries or fatalities may have been so much worse?

I'm a focused fan of jump racing,  but we have to consider the ethics of it.  When the ground conditions,  and the weather are clearly against the horses,  then should we perhaps consider reduced course sizes?  Would it be so difficult to by-pass some of the lesser,  but also draining fences,  when conditions are less than ideal?  

I suppose that it comes down to the question "Do we care"?  Harsh,  I'll accept,  but it was the conditions which killed two horses,  in my view.

I'm not "On a campaign",  I assure you,  but as our world evolves,  so we need to question what we do,  and convince ourselves that we can live with the consequences.

Alec.


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## KautoStar1 (12 April 2011)

Alec I agree.  
I said in an earlier post that I thought field size, number of fences and ground conditions should be constantly reviewed.  with modern watering systems it should be easy enough to ensure ground that is always on the easy side of good. Being able to by-pass fences must be a given at all courses.  Am amazed that it has taken Aintree so long to sort that.  But is is an excellent idea.
What I don't understand though is why the BHA didn't think it was in the public interest to let people know of these new measures.  Its all very well releasing a statement after the event via the racing press but they had the forum over 3 days of BBC coverage, not to mention race cards and press releases to publicise these new measures.  Maybe if they had then the man and women in the street would have had a better understanding of how hard racing works to ensure the safety of horses and jockeys.


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## Ninfapaola (12 April 2011)

Kiribati_uk said:



			Will you ever Kop on to yourselves, Peter Toole is in a critical condition in hospital tonight after a terrible fall in the previous chase, I wish him a speedy recovery. 
Yes its very sad that two horses died in the national but after all they are ANIMALS!!! 
 QUOTE]

Firsty I wish Peter Toole well and hope he recovers very soon.

However, jockeys have the choice whether to ride in any race - horses don't.   As previously stated we are all animals.  For the majority of people horses are part of their family and are equally thought of as much as humans. (call me 'fluffy' if you like but I love my animals just as much as my OH and grieve for them when they die)

I am no longer a fan of the National and no longer bet on it but if it was banned it would be replaced by something else equally as demanding.  There is still probably scope to make the race safer as outlined somewhere in this thread and I'm sure things will be put in motion before next years' race.

As regards the media, I think it has been hypocritical.  Last Wed, Thurs, Fri and Saturday's editons of the papers were all about the Aintree meeting and the  Grand National build up, cut out Sweeps etc. but  the following days papers the meeting and the race has been slammed - were these the journalists doing the pre and post write-ups?
		
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## YasandCrystal (12 April 2011)

Love it or hate it everyone should remember that the racing industry pours hundreds od thousands pounds into veterinary research and equipment at the state of the art veterinary clinics about the country. These are continually pushing the boundries on diagnosis ' and treatments for horses from all walks of life.
We ordinary horse owners are benefitting from the amazing advancements in lameness diagnosis and treatment and the availability of some of the world's top equestrian surgeons and veterinary specialists, who would have no place without this funding.
If it wasn't for the continual funding and support by the racing industry I am sure it would be true to say that we would be no way as far advanced as we are today.

I don't condone animal cruelty, but open your eyes and look how common the Mr Grays of this country are - starving horses, abusing them. There are hundreds of 'shoestring' owners who don't even worm their horses regularly let alone vaccinate them or get a vet to them when they are in need - to me that is far more basically cruel than racing.


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## Caledonia (12 April 2011)

Thanks for that, KautoStar, great article.


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## Dovorian (12 April 2011)

I must initially say that I am in no way knowledgeable in the sport of jump racing. as a layperson I do have some views, Firstly, I feel that running conditions should be evaluated pre-race, if the groubd is 'fast' could runners be balloted to get a decent number of runners?  Having ridden for 50+ years I can say that I believe that horses perform for us, such is their nature to trust. I recall many years ago I took a horse XC in unseasonably warm early season - poor chap ended very distressed much to my (then) dismay. Buckets of water later he was fine but in hindsight I would most certainly have pulled up at the first indication of the stress the poor chap was prepared to go through because 'mum' was keen to keep going. Only a small personal view but the generous nature of horses is easily passed by.

Having said that, the GN is a super race, imho reducing the height of fences is a wrong steer, speed and smaller fences will engender a 'careless' approach from horse and rider and that seems to predispose to classic rotational falls and other catastrophic errors.

Phew... and I'm planning to go Xc at the weekend? Must be mad....


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## marble (12 April 2011)

well done yasandcrystal, agree with your comment, re the "mr grays" of this world...if animal aid and the rest of them poured as much concern and strength into looking out for their (mr grays and his ilk)  equines, maybe our horses and ponies, on the whole would have a better life. 
But....the "mr grays" of this world are quite a different proposition. ie: go into their yard or land and give off....and you would probably get a bloody nose or worse.   

Also thank you KautoStar for putting on here Alastair Downes brillliant piece in todays Racing Post.


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## jump_racing (12 April 2011)

With regards to people saying horses are heard animals and will follow wether they enjoy it or not is a load of *******s.  Was it last year that either Davy Russell or Paul Carberrys horse wouldn't start? They don't go if they do not want to. Perhaps all theses idiots who want to ban racing should concentrate on the horses in this country who are neglected. I work in a national hunt yard and i can assure you they are treated like kings and couldn't want for anything!


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## AMH (12 April 2011)

This is also my first post - I have felt compelled to join in because what I've been reading from some people has made my blood boil!

What a shame the tabloids have acted true to type. Apparently, neither Andy Stewart, the owner of Ornais, nor Paul Nicholls, the horse's trainer, were contacted to give their views to the Mail on Sunday, which devoted some pages, usually reserved for scaremongering about the threat posed by asylum seekers, to vent its vitriol on the Sport of Kings. 

What a shame that racing only seems to hit the headlines when something horrid happens. The last time racing as a sport got this much coverage was over the sad events in the paddock at Newbury. 

I love horseracing. As an industry, it is still flawed and there are many things that could be done better. But the overwhelming majority of owners, trainers and racegoers care genuinely for the animals on which the whole pack of cards rests. And, frankly, anyone involved in horse sport, who attends Badminton or Olympia or Grand Prix dressage competitions as a spectator, shows their tacit support for horses to be maintained at the highest level with the help of joint injections to stave off the inevitable osteoarthritis, in order that we may marvel at their brilliance. How is this any different from horses racing with bowed tendons? It's not just about the fatalities.

We are hypocrites if we single out one equestrian activity to be more 'cruel' than any other. I have a thoroughbred in utero at the moment which will, hopefully, go on to race over hurdles and, maybe, over fences. No horse of mine would ever run in the National, but that's my choice. Let's all grow up a bit and accept that we all 'use' horses to one degree or another. We should be sticking together, not allowing the tabloids to drive a wedge into the equine community.


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## Alec Swan (13 April 2011)

Cocobeans said:



			As I understand it, it's the loose horses who cause the most danger so maybe this is what should be addressed? 

Official comment from the RSPCA: http://www.horseandcountry.tv/news/2011/04/13/rspca-respond-grand-national-deaths

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That anyone could consider the thoughts of the RSPCA,  or worse still,  heed their advice is beyond me.  As a charity,  the RSPCA are run and managed by a collection of very well meaning,  but completely inept,  imbeciles.

Cocobeans,  the problem of loose horses has been very well addressed over the last few years.  To the best of my knowledge,  most of the jumping tracks now have highly efficient "drafting" systems in place,  and they seem to work very well.  Horses are encouraged by course design to take a different path,  from the main body of the race.

You would be entirely correct in saying that historically,  loose horses were responsible for some appalling falls.  It is now something of a rarity to see loose horses,  which are still racing,  and so posing a threat,  thankfully.

Alec.


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## The Virgin Dubble (13 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			The amazing McCain family? A family that ritualistically sends its discards to Potters? Nothing amazing about them!!
		
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Where did you get that 'info' from? 

The McCains train at Cholmondeley, Cheshire. Why would they bypass Turners in Cheshire and take their 'discards' all the way down to Somerset? The simple answer is, they wouldn't, as it wouldn't be cost effective... 

As for rehoming, opposed to slaughter, TB's aren't generally for novices, but they end up with eejits through the sales because they are so cheap, then get passed from one sale ring to another when the owners can't cope. Very few have a happy ever after.
There are fates worth than death....


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## jenbleep (13 April 2011)

AMH said:



			This is also my first post - I have felt compelled to join in because what I've been reading from some people has made my blood boil!

What a shame the tabloids have acted true to type. Apparently, neither Andy Stewart, the owner of Ornais, nor Paul Nicholls, the horse's trainer, were contacted to give their views to the Mail on Sunday, which devoted some pages, usually reserved for scaremongering about the threat posed by asylum seekers, to vent its vitriol on the Sport of Kings. 

What a shame that racing only seems to hit the headlines when something horrid happens. The last time racing as a sport got this much coverage was over the sad events in the paddock at Newbury. 

I love horseracing. As an industry, it is still flawed and there are many things that could be done better. But the overwhelming majority of owners, trainers and racegoers care genuinely for the animals on which the whole pack of cards rests. And, frankly, anyone involved in horse sport, who attends Badminton or Olympia or Grand Prix dressage competitions as a spectator, shows their tacit support for horses to be maintained at the highest level with the help of joint injections to stave off the inevitable osteoarthritis, in order that we may marvel at their brilliance. How is this any different from horses racing with bowed tendons? It's not just about the fatalities.

We are hypocrites if we single out one equestrian activity to be more 'cruel' than any other. I have a thoroughbred in utero at the moment which will, hopefully, go on to race over hurdles and, maybe, over fences. No horse of mine would ever run in the National, but that's my choice. Let's all grow up a bit and accept that we all 'use' horses to one degree or another. We should be sticking together, not allowing the tabloids to drive a wedge into the equine community.
		
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Welcome to the forum! Excellent first post


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## The Virgin Dubble (13 April 2011)

AMH said:



			This is also my first post - I have felt compelled to join in because what I've been reading from some people has made my blood boil!

What a shame the tabloids have acted true to type. Apparently, neither Andy Stewart, the owner of Ornais, nor Paul Nicholls, the horse's trainer, were contacted to give their views to the Mail on Sunday, which devoted some pages, usually reserved for scaremongering about the threat posed by asylum seekers, to vent its vitriol on the Sport of Kings. 

What a shame that racing only seems to hit the headlines when something horrid happens. The last time racing as a sport got this much coverage was over the sad events in the paddock at Newbury. 

I love horseracing. As an industry, it is still flawed and there are many things that could be done better. But the overwhelming majority of owners, trainers and racegoers care genuinely for the animals on which the whole pack of cards rests. *And, frankly, anyone involved in horse sport, who attends Badminton or Olympia or Grand Prix dressage competitions as a spectator, shows their tacit support for horses to be maintained at the highest level with the help of joint injections to stave off the inevitable osteoarthritis, in order that we may marvel at their brilliance. How is this any different from horses racing with bowed tendons? *It's not just about the fatalities.

We are hypocrites if we single out one equestrian activity to be more 'cruel' than any other. I have a thoroughbred in utero at the moment which will, hopefully, go on to race over hurdles and, maybe, over fences. No horse of mine would ever run in the National, but that's my choice. Let's all grow up a bit and accept that we all 'use' horses to one degree or another. We should be sticking together, not allowing the tabloids to drive a wedge into the equine community.
		
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Very eloquent first post, and highlights perfectly, the hypocrisy of some people, who enjoy their days out at 'Badders', HOYS, etc, yet condemn racing.

Horse racing is far more accountable and up front than any other sport I can think of, so it is an easy target, rather than the hidden twilight worlds of eventing, SJing, and showing, where cruelty can easily be hidden away.


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## AMH (13 April 2011)

Dubs said:



			Very eloquent first post, and highlights perfectly, the hypocrisy of some people, who enjoy their days out at 'Badders', HOYS, etc, yet condemn racing.

Horse racing is far more accountable and up front than any other sport I can think of, so it is an easy target, rather than the hidden twilight worlds of eventing, SJing, and showing, where cruelty can easily be hidden away.
		
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Absolutely, Dubs. Just this morning, I've been doing research to respond to an article written about 'jumps' racing in Australia, which is under serious threat from the animal welfare groups out there. I was able to go on the BHA's website and find stats for all sorts of things, including racecourse fatalities as percentages of starters for flat, AW flat and jumps. I admit I haven't checked, but I'll guess I wouldn't find the same on the BE website. Racing is accountable to its audience in a way that no other equine discipline needs to be.

Another thing to consider is the amount of money that is spent on veterinary research related to racing from which other disciplines ultimately benefit. The HBLB (Horseracing Betting Levy Board) funds veterinary research - I attended a conference at Cheltenham the year before last, sponsored in part by the HBLB, at which vets shared some of their findings. Racing is one of the biggest contributary factors to the UK's veterinary excellence. And given that we have less than half the thoroughbreds in training that Australia does, yet as a nation are continually called on for veterinary expertise, would it be wrong to surmise that jump racing plays an integral part in instigating much of the research?


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## Spinal Tap (13 April 2011)

Yup, the advances sponsored by the racing industry mean that horses with crap feet (Big Brown - remember him?) and fragile bones (going right back to Mill Reef for old timers like me) can race, breed and pass their fantastic genes on to a whole new generation of fragile, high-maintenance horses with little or no chance of an alternative career if they don't run fast enough.

I accept that all equestrian sports are exploitative to an extent, but any person with a moral bone in their body will draw the line at a point where they believe the exploitation has gone too far.  It seems that general public are getting uncomfortable with the equine death toll that the Grand National causes each year.  Maybe it'll get banned, personally I doubt it because too much money is at stake.  I certainly won't be watching it and thinking to myself 'that horse has just died' again.


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## teagreen (13 April 2011)

Spinal Tap said:



			Yup, the advances sponsored by the racing industry mean that horses with crap feet (Big Brown - remember him?) and fragile bones (going right back to Mill Reef for old timers like me) can race, breed and pass their fantastic genes on to a whole new generation of fragile, high-maintenance horses with little or no chance of an alternative career if they don't run fast enough.

I accept that all equestrian sports are exploitative to an extent, but any person with a moral bone in their body will draw the line at a point where they believe the exploitation has gone too far.  It seems that general public are getting uncomfortable with the equine death toll that the Grand National causes each year.  Maybe it'll get banned, personally I doubt it because too much money is at stake.  I certainly won't be watching it and thinking to myself 'that horse has just died' again.
		
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But horses do not exclusively die in the Grand National. I've seen 2 horses die in any old race, or several horses die over several races on one day. The National is not the only race to kill horses, nor does it do so every year. So what's the next step? Ban racing? That doesn't work.


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## AMH (13 April 2011)

Spinal Tap said:



			Yup, the advances sponsored by the racing industry mean that horses with crap feet (Big Brown - remember him?) and fragile bones (going right back to Mill Reef for old timers like me) can race, breed and pass their fantastic genes on to a whole new generation of fragile, high-maintenance horses with little or no chance of an alternative career if they don't run fast enough.

I accept that all equestrian sports are exploitative to an extent, but any person with a moral bone in their body will draw the line at a point where they believe the exploitation has gone too far.  It seems that general public are getting uncomfortable with the equine death toll that the Grand National causes each year.  Maybe it'll get banned, personally I doubt it because too much money is at stake.  I certainly won't be watching it and thinking to myself 'that horse has just died' again.
		
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Isn't it interesting - Springalong died during an event a couple of weeks ago, and the front page of the H&H carried a tribute to a life well lived and a brilliant career. There is an assumption that it's OK for horses to die eventing because, to paraphrase another post on here, they've died doing something they 'love'. Well, maybe racehorses love racing - or maybe they don't. Maybe eventers hate eventing... 

There aren't fatalities in the Grand National every year, that's a blantant exaggeration. There aren't fatalities at Badminton every year. But there are thirty odd fences and 4 and a bit miles of going... Any similarities? And I've been at Badmintion when more than one horse was destroyed and they all just carried on. And I've watched certain well known event riders chase home very tired horses to make the time. Dress it up how you like, jump racing and eventing aren't so different.


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## Alec Swan (13 April 2011)

The last few posts have been informative,  and very well reasoned.  Well said,  all of you.

Alec.


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 April 2011)

For the most part most of you talk sense. I work in racing so I will address a few of the things I can remember from the previous posts.

Drugs in racing - no chance! Nearly every winner, unduly beaten favourite or well running outsider gets dope tested at the end of each race. You can't even feed too many apples, carrots or polo's to these horses incase a high sugar content shows up in a blood test. In this country drugs in racing are a complete waste of time, effort and money. If a horse is found to have a prohibited substance in its blood then the trainer has to pay a large fine - that's if it was a minor infringment. Trainers have been fine in excess of £12k, banned from racing any horses for 3 months and have had said horses banned from racing for 30days in the most extreme cases. It's just not worth the risk. Yes in America drugs are used. The main ones used are to prevent bleeding and for faster dispersal of amino acids. In the long run they are detrimental to the horses health.

Qualifications for the Grand National - The race is for horses 6years old and upwards. They have to have raced in at least 3 chases to gain a handicap mark. No horse with a rating of less than 110 can be entered. Normally only horses rated 135 and above make the cut into the race ensuring that you do truly get the best horses. To acheive a rating sufficient to get a run these horses usually have to have won a few decent races or been placed at the highest level. The Cheif Handicapper never hands out undue praise to naff horses. For a jockey to ride in the National they must have won 15 hurdle or chase races under the Rule Of Racing. So they are no beginners. 

As for Racehorse Death Watch - that site makes my blood boil! It has so many facts wrong about how the horses died. And plus which saddistic person trawls through all of the racing results every day just to see if any died?

The picture of Dooney's Gate in the Daily Flail is totally inappropriate. He was already dead at the point. He knew nothing of hitting the ground. 

As for the race being run in the second fastest time in history I would just like to point out that never before have fences been by-passed. If jumped you would add on approximately 3-4seconds for jumping the normal fence and a further 5-6seconds for jumping Becher's Brook. So if you add that on to the time of the race you will find it about average.

As for horses running and being trained through fear - utter twoddle! Trust me, if they don't want to do it they wouldn't! What can a small human (and jockeys are pretty darned small for the most part) do against half a tonne of horse? Angry, scared or just plain stubborn? Racehorses are treated as royalty. If they don't want to do it they are found other jobs to do. They aren't treated as just another machine, they are well loved, well looked after and very much respected by anyone who has anything ot do with them.

If racing is cruel and should be banned then what about eventing? You ask your horses to jump over huge solid fences for a long period of time. Dressage - the training method of Rol Kur caused a HUGE debate. Endurance - running horses to the limits of their stamina. Showing - "show condition" means obesely fat whilst many are put onto steroids to bulk up quickly.

To be honest I think racehorses get the far better deal out of it all.


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## Over2You (13 April 2011)

AMH said:



			Isn't it interesting - Springalong died during an event a couple of weeks ago, and the front page of the H&H carried a tribute to a life well lived and a brilliant career. There is an assumption that it's OK for horses to die eventing because, to paraphrase another post on here, they've died doing something they 'love'. Well, maybe racehorses love racing - or maybe they don't. Maybe eventers hate eventing... 

There aren't fatalities in the Grand National every year, that's a blantant exaggeration. There aren't fatalities at Badminton every year. But there are thirty odd fences and 4 and a bit miles of going... Any similarities? And I've been at Badmintion when more than one horse was destroyed and they all just carried on. And I've watched certain well known event riders chase home very tired horses to make the time. Dress it up how you like, jump racing and eventing aren't so different.
		
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Spring Along was a highly successful eventer and there are far fewer deaths in eventing as there are in racing. The combination of both makes it more likely that his death would make headlines. However, I have never seen front page/memorials/headlines in pro-racing media for no hope racehorses who died while doing something they 'loved'. At least in eventing, more and more fences are being built with frangible pins and most horses legs are greased to help them over the fences. As pointed out previously, they go one-at-a-time making pile-ups (that regularly occur in racing) an impossibility. I am not saying I completely agree with eventing, but it is a damned site safer for the horse.


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 April 2011)

I would also like to point out that the top 1.5-2ft of each National fence can be brushed through and knocked off by the horses. Regulation Chase fences you can go through the top of, aprox only 1.5ft at the bottom is actually solid. And Hurdles can be totally flattened quite easily. They might look big stiff fences but in reality they don't take a lot of jumping.


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## Over2You (13 April 2011)

EKW said:



			For the most part most of you talk sense. I work in racing so I will address a few of the things I can remember from the previous posts.

Drugs in racing - no chance! Nearly every winner, unduly beaten favourite or well running outsider gets dope tested at the end of each race. You can't even feed too many apples, carrots or polo's to these horses incase a high sugar content shows up in a blood test. In this country drugs in racing are a complete waste of time, effort and money. If a horse is found to have a prohibited substance in its blood then the trainer has to pay a large fine - that's if it was a minor infringment. Trainers have been fine in excess of £12k, banned from racing any horses for 3 months and have had said horses banned from racing for 30days in the most extreme cases. It's just not worth the risk. Yes in America drugs are used. The main ones used are to prevent bleeding and for faster dispersal of amino acids. In the long run they are detrimental to the horses health.

Qualifications for the Grand National - The race is for horses 6years old and upwards. They have to have raced in at least 3 chases to gain a handicap mark. No horse with a rating of less than 110 can be entered. Normally only horses rated 135 and above make the cut into the race ensuring that you do truly get the best horses. To acheive a rating sufficient to get a run these horses usually have to have won a few decent races or been placed at the highest level. The Cheif Handicapper never hands out undue praise to naff horses. For a jockey to ride in the National they must have won 15 hurdle or chase races under the Rule Of Racing. So they are no beginners. 

*As for Racehorse Death Watch - that site makes my blood boil! It has so many facts wrong about how the horses died. And plus which saddistic person trawls through all of the racing results every day just to see if any died? *

The picture of Dooney's Gate in the Daily Flail is totally inappropriate. *He was already dead at the point. He knew nothing of hitting the ground.* 

As for the race being run in the second fastest time in history I would just like to point out that never before have fences been by-passed. If jumped you would add on approximately 3-4seconds for jumping the normal fence and a further 5-6seconds for jumping Becher's Brook. So if you add that on to the time of the race you will find it about average.

*As for horses running and being trained through fear - utter twoddle! Trust me, if they don't want to do it they wouldn't! What can a small human (and jockeys are pretty darned small for the most part) do against half a tonne of horse? Angry, scared or just plain stubborn? Racehorses are treated as royalty. If they don't want to do it they are found other jobs to do. They aren't treated as just another machine, they are well loved, well looked after and very much respected by anyone who has anything ot do with them.*

If racing is cruel and should be banned then what about eventing? You ask your horses to jump over huge solid fences for a long period of time. *Dressage - the training method of Rol Kur caused a HUGE debate. Endurance - running horses to the limits of their stamina.* Showing - "show condition" means obesely fat whilst many are put onto steroids to bulk up quickly.

To be honest I think racehorses get the far better deal out of it all.
		
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At least someone cares enough to publish their deaths, so their names will not be forgotten. Would you rather they never be remembered?


So that makes his death acceptable does it? 

That is what I call utter twaddle (not twoddle - if you want to try and make an intelligent post, then at least get your spelling right!). Many top trainers have said they utilize the flight instinct of the horse. At the start of a race, when a group of horse start running, the rest will surely follow. Those that refuse to start (of which I have seen very few) could very easily be spooking/fixating on something else. Anytime I've seen a flat horse refuse to go into a start gate it is because they are afraid of the start gate. I have never seen a horse refuse to go after being released from the gate. 

Do you regularly see horses breaking legs/necks/backs in dressage? Do you often see them dropping dead of heart attacks or ridden to the point of collapse? As for endurance. Deaths from heart attacks are rare. This is because they are given plenty of breathers and pass through multiple vet inspections. Racing provides neither of those things.    

In racing, the horse is always the loser. Even many of the top ones end their lives in slaughterhouses.


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## teagreen (13 April 2011)

Over2You - if racing is banned, like you so wish, what do you suggest we do with the horses, from foals to stallions at stud?


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			At least someone cares enough to publish their deaths, so their names will not be forgotten. Would you rather they never be remembered?


So that makes his death acceptable does it? 

That is what I call utter twaddle (not twoddle - if you want to try and make an intelligent post, then at least get your spelling right!). Many top trainers have said they utilize the flight instinct of the horse. At the start of a race, when a group of horse start running, the rest will surely follow. Those that refuse to start (of which I have seen very few) could very easily be spooking/fixating on something else. Anytime I've seen a flat horse refuse to go into a start gate it is because they are afraid of the start gate. I have never seen a horse refuse to go after being released from the gate. 

Do you regularly see horses breaking legs/necks/backs in dressage? Do you often see them dropping dead of heart attacks or ridden to the point of collapse? As for endurance. Deaths from heart attacks are rare. This is because they are given plenty of breathers and pass through multiple vet inspections. Racing provides neither of those things.    

In racing, the horse is always the loser. Even many of the top ones end their lives in slaughterhouses.
		
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Do you seriously think that those horses will be forgotton?!?! If you looked after one of those horses every single day (sadly 2 on that damned list I did look after and another from our yard) Do you really think we could ever, ever forget them? What about their owners? WHat about their trainers? You really are a small minded person to suggest that none of us care about our charges!

As for refusing to race - Chaninbar did it 2 days in a row at Aintree and once at the Cheltenham Festival - he really was adamant he was going no where but home. There was also a very, very good mare whose owners retired her from flat racing last year as 3 times she entered the stalls and stood stock still whilst everyone else streamed off. I have lead horses down to the start who have refused to race. It's not fear, it's not "spooking at something" its downright stubborness and there is not a jot we can do about it.

As for accidents in dressage - they are never reported so no one hears of them though I am sure that they do happen. Endurance - again you never hear just how many horses may have died or collapsed through heat exhaustion. As for no vet checks at the races - pah! Shows just how little you know about racing! Every horse that walks into the stable yard is given a glance over by a vet, if they have reason to fault it they will ask you to trot up. If a horse is seen as being lame going to the start they will most certainly be thoroughly looked at before being allowed to either race or be sent back to the stables. After race care - again every horse is glanced over by a vet and if they have cause for concern they make it known. I can assure you we stable staff forget a damned sight more about how to look after our athletes than you could ever learn in 3 lifetimes. 

As for horses going to slaughter houses - would you rather that they were left dumped in a field to fend for themselves? Some are not suitable to be retrained. Some go on to be broodmares or stallions if their ability or bloodlines are good enough. A lot do get rehomed. At least owners are being responsible for their horses rather than let them go to wrack and ruin.


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 April 2011)

Also if eventing is a lot safer than racing how is that any old idiot can do it? Racing is a professional sport. You have to go through a rigorous exam process before you can gain your licence to train horses. Much of the knowledge that is needed to get this comes from YEARS of experience in the racing game. Jockeys have to pass tough physical tests as well as pass assessments on their riding ability. For every fall they have to consult the doctor before being allowed to ride again, every year they have to pass a concussion test. If they do get concussed in a race then they are stood down for a minimum of 3 days before having to sit a concussion test. What about eventers? What exams do you have to go through to be allowed out onto the course?

Sorry, I am most certainly not implying that all eventers are idiots or suggesting that none of you train your horses to the required level that you wish to comnpete at. Only a few.


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## AMH (13 April 2011)

Totally with EKW. It's an insult to suggest that no-one cares about racehorses. I've been on a very large jumps yard and seen the absolutely individual care each horse receives. If only every horse was maintained as well. I don't suggest all trainers are ad diligent, but neither is it true they're all unfeeling and uncaring.

It's a shame we couldn't keep this rational - I'd have more respect for your point of view, Over2You, if it wasn't punctuated with insults about people's spelling. This is a very emotive subject, understood, but no need to get personal...


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## naid pollyanna (13 April 2011)

now this is in no means a lecture because some people do like racing and others dont, i myself do not like the grand national and i think anyone with the knowledge of a jump race horses life from the age of about two would agree :/ two horses died again just like last year and i bet we will soon find out just how many needed oxygen after the race(is that really how a horses life should be?-running in a giant oval/circle then jumping huge jumps to at the end have freezing water poured over them with an oxygen mask on to then be transported home and begin training again in a few day or what ever?) 
its up to you whether to support the extremely difficult and dangerous race because know one else can do it for you but just think next time you watch a race that out of nearly 200 foals born to race only around 50 make it to the track as the 150 will have broken or injured a bone at two years old training


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 April 2011)

Most horses that race in the Grand National will have not started their racing careers until they were 4 years old at least. Some won't have even been broken till they were 4 or 5 depending upon how strong they were at that age. Horses that race on the flat at 2years old are bred for speed not stamina. If these horses go jumping then they will more than likely stay to 2 mile races and normally hurdles as they are of smaller stature and lighter build. There are some that buck the trend and go further but not many.


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## teagreen (13 April 2011)

naid pollyanna said:



			now this is in no means a lecture because some people do like racing and others dont, i myself do not like the grand national and i think anyone with the knowledge of a jump race horses life from the age of about two would agree :/ two horses died again just like last year and i bet we will soon find out just how many needed oxygen after the race(is that really how a horses life should be?-running in a giant oval/circle then jumping huge jumps to at the end have freezing water poured over them with an oxygen mask on to then be transported home and begin training again in a few day or what ever?) 
its up to you whether to support the extremely difficult and dangerous race because know one else can do it for you but just think next time you watch a race that out of nearly 200 foals born to race only around 50 make it to the track as the 150 will have broken or injured a bone at two years old training 

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a) Jumps horses are not started at 2 years old.

b) Should a horses be about running in a giant circle? Should a horses life be about jumping multi-coloured poles all the time? Think about Totilas - should his life be spent in a stable then taken out for an hour each day to do sideways movements? Should horses be ridden at all, under that logic?

c) Horses die in all types of racing, not just in the Grand National. A horse died a Towcester yesterday. Did anyone mention him (except the person who asked about him on here)? Nope. 2 horses died at other tracks the same day as the National. Did anyone mention them? Nope. 

d) Think of all the welsh pony foals who meet the same fate. Overbreeding is not exclusive to racing. 

e) I have a knowledge of jump horses lives. I think they live extremely good lives, and better ones than many horses in Britain.


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## naid pollyanna (13 April 2011)

but on the other hand i know that for the majority of race horses there treatment is top notch  because who wouldnt care for a horse that pays for there living theses horses do not live on a one to one basis im guessing with thier owners and they only get the best but when it comes down to this particular race theres nothing the owner or carers of the horse can do to help it and even the jockeys to some extent cant help it explaining the amount of deaths, but to people who havent seen thier day to day stable lives or are not aware of anyone with race horses then they wont know this i only agree with racing and the race horses when i know they are fairly treated at home and at the race track  xx so well done to thoses who finished the race healthy and also rest in peace those who died for trying their best well done!


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## naid pollyanna (13 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			a) Jumps horses are not started at 2 years old.

b) Should a horses be about running in a giant circle? Should a horses life be about jumping multi-coloured poles all the time? Think about Totilas - should his life be spent in a stable then taken out for an hour each day to do sideways movements? Should horses be ridden at all, under that logic?

c) Horses die in all types of racing, not just in the Grand National. A horse died a Towcester yesterday. Did anyone mention him (except the person who asked about him on here)? Nope. 2 horses died at other tracks the same day as the National. Did anyone mention them? Nope. 

d) Think of all the welsh pony foals who meet the same fate. Overbreeding is not exclusive to racing. 

e) I have a knowledge of jump horses lives. I think they live extremely good lives, and better ones than many horses in Britain.
		
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i completely agree because i can only go on what you hear on horse news chanels on tv and in magasines about horses 

totilas does actually go out in the field aswell as a stable but like many racehorses is also woth a lot of money and is someones living they cant afford to have him injured again like many race horses, also totilas does get to do other things at home like pop a few jumps as many dressage horse including himself seem to enjoy that, i used to live just down the road from harvey smith and his grand national horses and from what i saw from them they were ridden lovely, they looked healthy but he did not care one bit at times but then other days he only wanted the best like many other sport horse owners. i was not specifically noting racing as a bad/dangerous sport alone as this goes for nearly all horse sports but thats all we were talking about on here :/

sory if i offended anyone in anyway who is far more knowledgable about this sport than i :/


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## minesadouble (13 April 2011)

Apologies if this has been said before BUT do many people think this debate would still be raging if those two tragic deaths had occured on the second circuit rather than the first???

Because I certainly don't


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 April 2011)

minesadouble said:



			Apologies if this has been said before BUT do many people think this debate would still be raging if those two tragic deaths had occured on the second circuit rather than the first???

Because I certainly don't
		
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Or indeed if the bodies had been removed from the track. I could explain how this is done in detail if you so wish but it may make you empty your stomach


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## lcsd114 (13 April 2011)

minesadouble said:



			Apologies if this has been said before BUT do many people think this debate would still be raging if those two tragic deaths had occured on the second circuit rather than the first???

Because I certainly don't
		
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I agree.  If the fatalities had happened on second circuit, there would have been no footage of the tarp covered horse or the screens around Dooneys Gate.  They may have mentioned them during the rerun but it would not nearly have been as big.
  I hate to knock the safety procedures at Aintree and I understand that it was done for the sake of the rest of the field but, the unfortunate, unexpected, side effect was that the deaths were highlighted during the race and that made the story blow up much more than it would have.
  I agree with previous posters in this and other threads.  NH is a sport with risks, which are fully appreciated by the owners and all the connections of these horses.  It doesn't mean that they don't care about them, they just accept the consequences if the worst happens.  
  The GN is a little more risky because of the size of the fences and the length of the race but it's not like the connections don't know that.  They train the horses and (hopefully) get them fit enough and good enough at racing to get round.  If they have not done this, you cannot blame the race or the course, you have to place blame on the owners who put the thought of winning the big prize and glory above the well-being of the horse.  On the other hand, sometimes accidents just happen during a race and there's nothing the owner, trainer or jockey can do to prevent them.
  I have been a GN fanatic since I was a little girl (and still dream of having the rush of riding in the race, just for the tremendous feeling you'd get) so this backlash upsets me but I have seen it before and it'll quiet down as soon as people move on to the next cause and the race will be back next year as usual, I truly believe that.


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## lcsd114 (13 April 2011)

I just rewatched the 1987 GN online.  (Maori Venture, my second winner, yay!)  I watched that one in particular because of Dark Ivy and I have a couple of comments/observations.

 1)  Dark Ivy was killed immediately @ Bechers the first time round and they had time to move him off of the course before they got there the second time.  Why were they unable to do that this year with Ornais, who also died instantly?  I understand that Dooneys Gate may have been more difficuly because of his injury and the possibility of a jockey being injured there too, though I still don't really get why they had to skip either fence, especially the 4th.

 2)  To get away from the subject of the injuries/fatalities altogether, the BBC coverage lacked the best camera angles this year.  No head on shot of Bechers.  No shot of the Canal Turn from the right side, pointing up the course towards Valentines.  The shot of the elbow was a different angle, taking away from the drama of the long run-in.  I really don't like that.  Is it because other networks have cameras there now?

 3)  Who misses Peter O'Sullevan's commentary?  For me, he is the voice of the National.  I know he had to retire but he left a big void IMO.


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 April 2011)

To be honest I think they missed it just to prove that they now could. They have always removed dead horses before and if a horse or jockey was still down then they would doll off an area and get the horses to jump past on the safest side.


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## Starbucks (14 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			Do you regularly see horses breaking legs/necks/backs in dressage?
		
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No, but SOME have a life where a hack is a rarity and turn out is non existent, they have a life stuck in the stable and then in the school made to do movements, which lets face it, do not come natural to a horse, not in the same way galloping and jumping does.  Is that so much better?

Not having a go at dressage people by the way, just pointing out that the life of a lot of dressage horses is hardly ideal!


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## Over2You (14 April 2011)

minesadouble said:



			Apologies if this has been said before BUT do many people think this debate would still be raging if those two tragic deaths had occured on the second circuit rather than the first???

Because I certainly don't
		
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I jolly well think it would still be getting debated since *TWO HORSES DIED* needless and senseless deaths!! You racing supporters continually try to justify these deaths by saying they were doing something they loved. That other horse sports have their elements of cruelty too. Then also say the horses were loved by their owners, trainers, etc. I am sorry, but there is no way in hell that those 'horse lovers' would put their animals in such races knowing there was a bloody good chance they would not be returning home. *ANY* horse can die on track. It does not matter if they are in their first race or been doing it for years. One Man is an excellent example of the latter. As are Lanzarote and Noddy's Ryde. Not to mention the countless other greats who perish during races.


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## Over2You (14 April 2011)

Starbucks said:



			No, but SOME have a life where a hack is a rarity and turn out is non existent, they have a life stuck in the stable and then in the school made to do movements, which lets face it, do not come natural to a horse, not in the same way galloping and jumping does.  Is that so much better?

Not having a go at dressage people by the way, just pointing out that the life of a lot of dressage horses is hardly ideal!
		
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I do not agree either with the some of the ways in which other sport horses are kept, but they are *NOT* put at such a high risk during competition!! They are *NOT* raced at break-neck speeds, then asked to jump enormous obstacles.They are *NOT* put under so much stress that they need oxygen at the end of their rounds. No other horse sport is as cruel as that. *NONE*!!


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## Elf On A Shelf (14 April 2011)

If racehorse owners and trainers don't love their horses and put them at risk by racing them why then do eventers continually put their horses at risk going cross country? Do they also not give a fig for their horses? How many dressage horses have obtained stress fractures or broken pelvis's because they have been pushed to be doing movements that they are not designed to do? How any of these horse, and the same could be said for showing, have broken wind pipes by having their heads head in unnatural positions? 

Come on now, you really are fighting a losing argument.


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## Elf On A Shelf (14 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			I do not agree either with the some of the ways in which other sport horses are kept, but they are *NOT* put at such a high risk during competition!! They are *NOT* raced at break-neck speeds, then asked to jump enormous obstacles.They are *NOT* put under so much stress that they need oxygen at the end of their rounds. No other horse sport is as cruel as that. *NONE*!!
		
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No they are asked to compete on brick solid ground that any sensible person would avoid. Racing waters it's tracks to provide good racing ground, they always have plenty of grass coverage to add a bit of bounce and all the divets made by hooves are stomped back in between each and every race.


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## Spinal Tap (14 April 2011)

No they are asked to compete on brick solid ground that any sensible person would avoid. Racing waters it's tracks to provide good racing ground, they always have plenty of grass coverage to add a bit of bounce and all the divets made by hooves are stomped back in between each and every race.
		
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I have seen jump racing meetings in summer where the going is advertised as 'firm' or 'hard', so I don't accept that point at all.  Many eventing tracks get aggravated if the going is too firm.  Do you remember Badminton a couple of years back where the course was considered to be too firm?  There were mass withdrawals and the organisers got heavily criticised.

Back to the Grand National - I think I'm right in saying that there are horse fatalities more often than not, certainly 2 deaths is far from unprecedented.  In a field of 40 that's not good odds.  However well ridden and capable the horse is, the risk of it getting brought down doesn't go away.  I know you can say the same for any race but the risk of equine death in the GN is not fanciful, it's factual and substantial.  I can't understand how a caring owner can risk their horse like that.


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## AMH (14 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			I jolly well think it would still be getting debated since *TWO HORSES DIED* needless and senseless deaths!! You racing supporters continually try to justify these deaths by saying they were doing something they loved. That other horse sports have their elements of cruelty too. Then also say the horses were loved by their owners, trainers, etc. I am sorry, but there is no way in hell that those 'horse lovers' would put their animals in such races knowing there was a bloody good chance they would not be returning home. *ANY* horse can die on track. It does not matter if they are in their first race or been doing it for years. One Man is an excellent example of the latter. As are Lanzarote and Noddy's Ryde. Not to mention the countless other greats who perish during races.
		
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And ANY horse can die eventing. Any eventing rider can get a stride wrong, that's why even the professionals fall off. And just last year, Louisa Lockwood lost a horse on the course at Badminton, not to mention all the human fatalities there have been in eventing over the past few years, some seasoned professionals. This is the risk we take in all forms of horse sport. Eventers don't have a leg to stand on when trying to argue against horse racing. The natural conclusion to your argument is that we should ban jump racing. And there are over 5,000 jump horses and hunter chasers in training in the UK. So what happens to them? Because the vast majority DON'T die on the track, and not everyone wants a retrained racehorse.


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## Elf On A Shelf (14 April 2011)

The term 'hard' isn't used in racing in this country. And I think you will find that 95% of summer meetings will water the tracks so they get good, food to firm, firm in places at the most. They won't run on purely firm or fast ground. There is always a very good coverage of grass (except at Towcester, they need to get that sorted) so there is always a bit of bounce. Tight bends are sanded for grip in the summer as well. From the xc courses I have seen none if them have had very good grass coverage and the take offs and landings are rock solid mud patches. Racecourses protect and nourish their tracks to the point of ocd. I have never seen an xc course that has been looked after half as well.


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## Caledonia (14 April 2011)

In response to whoever it was said on the other closed thread that neither Dooney's Gate or Ornais should have been in the field, here's their form record. 

DOONEY'S GATE - last three runs previous to Aintree were 4th in the Topham over the same fences same meeting last year, then 4th in a Grade A Handicap chase at Leopardstown in Jan this year, then 1st in a handicap chase at Clonmel in February this year. 
His OR rating was 154, higher than ALL those that finished the National this year, bar last year's winner, Don't Push It.

ORNAIS - he won over 3m at Cheltenham in November 2008 in a graduation chase beating the horse that was 5th in this year's National, Niche Market. He then pulled up lame in a Grade 1, and was given over 2 years off, so they had done the job right for repair.
He was brought back in 2 hunter chases, and was returning to form. He was on a mark of 140. Before his injury he also was rated 154. His rating was dropped simply because he was off the track for so long, nothing to do with his ability.
The injury was not a reason to not run him - look at Aldaniti.


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## Amymay (14 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			Do you regularly see horses breaking legs/necks/backs in dressage? Do you often see them dropping dead of heart attacks or ridden to the point of collapse? As for endurance. Deaths from heart attacks are rare. This is because they are given plenty of breathers and pass through multiple vet inspections.
		
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No, you are of course right about dressage horses.  However, what does end their careers more commonly than a lay person might appreciate is ligament and tendon damage, significant back problems and our old friend (suprisingly) laminitis.  If their lucky any of these might happen late in their career.  However, back issues can be the blight of the younger comp horse (including show jumpers) ending their careers and often life quite early.  

It's an unfortunate consequence of every sport that the horse becomes a disposable commodity.  And unless you wish to ban every equine sport (because God knows Endurance has plenty of skeletons in it's cupboard too) then to a degree you have to accept it (although of course we don't have to like it).




			In racing, the horse is always the loser. Even many of the top ones end their lives in slaughterhouses.
		
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And of course this statement could not be further from the truth.  The horse is not always the looser - many of them have very successful careers, and live on to enjoy a happy retirement.  And I'd love to read your research on which top horses have ended up in slaughterhouses....


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## teagreen (14 April 2011)

Over2You - you have a seriously blinkered view of the world if you think that banning racing will improve equine welfare. All the professionals agree - todays Horse and Hound has some interesting facts and opinions about the National. Only Animal Aid, who want to ban the use of animals for everything, want to see racing banned - yet I've never seen them give an opinion of what would happen to the equine world if this happened. 

You have still not answered the question of what you think would happen to racehorses if racing got banned. Or what would happen to the hundreds of thousands employed in the industry.


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## Amymay (14 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			You have still not answered the question of what you think would happen to racehorses if racing got banned. Or what would happen to the hundreds of thousands employed in the industry.
		
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Or indeed the economy????


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## AMH (14 April 2011)

amymay said:



			Or indeed the economy????
		
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Absolutely - I think I read once that racing directly employs more people than any other sporting activity, not to mention all the associated business (feed merchants, farriers, vets etc). Unfortunately, those with an 'animal welfare' agenda put animals above all other costs and if we lived in a vacuum that would be fine, but we don't. Everything has consequences, and the consequences of banning jump racing and pointing to the rural economy in some parts of the country would be huge.


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## Over2You (14 April 2011)

amymay said:



			No, you are of course right about dressage horses.  However, what does end their careers more commonly than a lay person might appreciate is ligament and tendon damage, significant back problems and our old friend (suprisingly) laminitis.  If their lucky any of these might happen late in their career.  However, back issues can be the blight of the younger comp horse (including show jumpers) ending their careers and often life quite early.  

It's an unfortunate consequence of every sport that the horse becomes a disposable commodity.  And unless you wish to ban every equine sport (because God knows Endurance has plenty of skeletons in it's cupboard too) then to a degree you have to accept it (although of course we don't have to like it).



And of course this statement could not be further from the truth.  The horse is not always the looser - many of them have very successful careers, and live on to enjoy a happy retirement.  And I'd love to read your research on which top horses have ended up in slaughterhouses....
		
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I do not know exactly what 'skeletons' endurance has (please elaborate), but anytime I have seen it, the horses receive regular and thorough vet checks. I have also seen horses cross the finish line with plenty of energy left after covering 30+ miles!! They are NOT dripping in sweat, just about to collapse after 4-miles!!

For those horses who do go onto a happy retirement, there are hundreds of others who are not quite as lucky. However, as I said, even top ones (like Ferdinand and Exceller) end their careers in the slaughterhouse. Those are the two who were confirmed to have been slaughtered. I am still researching this subject. There are likely countless other champions who suffered the same fate. Not exactly a win-win situation for the horses is it when not even the winners are safe from the knacker man?


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## Caledonia (14 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			I 
. However, as I said, even top ones (like Ferdinand and Exceller) end their careers in the slaughterhouse.
		
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These were American horses that were sold abroad as *stallions*, one to Japan and one to Sweden. Ferdinand was 19 when he died, Exceller died at 24. 
A sad and unfitting end, I totally agree, but seriously - what has this to do with British racing? I don't know the procedures for euthanasia in either Sweden or Japan, it may well be that is their disposal method, and their time was up. 

Is it the fact that they might have been eaten, that you find shocking? Both lived to a decent age for TBs.


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## teagreen (14 April 2011)

And still she ignores the difficult questions....


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## AMH (14 April 2011)

Exceller stood at Gainsway Farm and Ferdinand stood at Claibourne Farms. Both are reknowned and excellent breeding operations in Kentucky - these horses will have lived in the total lap of luxury at these farms, and will have wanted for nothing.


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## Elf On A Shelf (14 April 2011)

Previous Grand National winner Comply Or Die retired after this years race - where is he going? He is off to live the life of luxury at Timmy Murphey's farm. Timmy owes this horse a great deal and is rewarding him by giving him everything he wants. That's hardly a slaughterhouse.


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## fidleyspromise (14 April 2011)

Over2You said:



			I do not know exactly what 'skeletons' endurance has (please elaborate), but anytime I have seen it, the horses receive regular and thorough vet checks. I have also seen horses cross the finish line with plenty of energy left after covering 30+ miles!! They are NOT dripping in sweat, just about to collapse after 4-miles!!

For those horses who do go onto a happy retirement, there are hundreds of others who are not quite as lucky. However, as I said, even top ones (like Ferdinand and Exceller) end their careers in the slaughterhouse. Those are the two who were confirmed to have been slaughtered. I am still researching this subject. There are likely countless other champions who suffered the same fate. Not exactly a win-win situation for the horses is it when not even the winners are safe from the knacker man?
		
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I am not for or against racing.  I'm simply a leisure rider who enjoys my horses!  As has been said before, what of all the natives bred on the hills etc and then culled?  Is this a win-win situation for them?

Endurance?  No skeletons?  Just because you don't know of the skeletons doesn't mean they aren't there.  What of the once famous "April Airs, a 26-year-old Anglo-Arab, had been a respected horse competing in long-distance events of up to 75 miles in the 90s. She is now severely underweight and being nursed back to health at the sanctuary."  
http://www.horseandcountry.tv/news/2010/10/22/famous-endurance-horse-found-sanctuary

Was that a win-win situation for her and you have no idea of any others with similar fates or from any other discipline.  Race horses (I believe?)  have more documentation etc so they can be traced more easily than horses within other sports?

Racehorses may not love racing.  Can you honestly say eventers, endurance horses, leisure horses, show jumpers etc would not be happier out free than bending to our wills?  I do everything I can for my horses and know they at the least content with their lot.  

I've been on Show Jumping yards where majority of horses were stabled 24/7 for a minimum of 2 months!  There was no fitness programme, no exercising on a weekly basis - never mind a daily basis.  

Just my 2 cents.


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## Mrs B (14 April 2011)

_"Can you honestly say eventers, endurance horses, leisure horses, show jumpers etc would not be happier out free than bending to our wills?"_

Mishaspey - I am curious. Where is this 'out free' to which you refer? Do you mean turn them out on Dartmoor and let them get on with it? Or in our fields as pets?

And I can hand on heart say that the horses I have kept - mainly polo ponies, hunters and leisure horses have been listless after a relatively short time when turned away.

My current horse had to have nearly 10 weeks off due to snow and illness. During that time, he was mainly in his field with company, but wasn't his usual bright self. Until, that is, the day I started him back in work. He saw his tack and 'knuckered' at me, grabbed the bit when offered and positively danced down the road.

If that was 'bending to my will', all my experience of horse keeping told me he was pretty ok with it!


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## sleepingdragon10 (14 April 2011)

EKW said:



			Previous Grand National winner Comply Or Die retired after this years race - where is he going? He is off to live the life of luxury at Timmy Murphey's farm. Timmy owes this horse a great deal and is rewarding him by giving him everything he wants. That's hardly a slaughterhouse.
		
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That's lovely, great news to hear


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## showjumpinglover (14 April 2011)

Wanted Choc Thornton to win. (He's my best friends cousin)


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## Ninfapaola (15 April 2011)

lcsd114 said:



			I just rewatched the 1987 GN online.  (Maori Venture, my second winner, yay!)  I watched that one in particular because of Dark Ivy and I have a couple of comments/observations.

 1)  Dark Ivy was killed immediately @ Bechers the first time round  why they had to skip  .
		
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That was the last time I bet on the National - Dark Ivy was my favoured horse


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