# Futurity!



## popsdosh (12 August 2017)

It appears that the Futurity and equine bridge project is about to bite the dust. Are the serious breeders totally surprised ?  The reasoning behind it was great however as with most things with horses in the UK the aims were sound but it got hijacked with vested interest.


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## Alec Swan (12 August 2017)

popsdosh said:



			It appears that the Futurity and equine bridge project is about to bite the dust. Are the serious breeders totally surprised ?  The reasoning behind it was great however as with most things with horses in the UK the aims were sound but it got hijacked with vested interest.
		
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Is anyone surprised?  It was an experiment which failed. The simple fact is that a crystal ball is not the way to adjudge the potential of a young horse.  Five years ago I asked,  and on here,  if there were any youngsters which were given Elite status which had come through to support the judge's opinions and it seems that there were too few to support the efficacy of what's no more than an opinion.

It would be interesting to know,  conversely,  if there are any foals which the judges didn't care for and which went on to prove their critics wrong!

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (12 August 2017)

popsdosh said:



			.. however as with most things with horses in the UK the aims were sound but it got hijacked with vested interest.
		
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Considering you thoughts further,  it seems to me and perhaps others that because of 'vested interests' few in the UK seem to work for the common good.  Perhaps Ken Rehill's observation of a few years ago is right in that we have more equine registration and breed societies in the UK than the whole of Europe,  may have some bearing!  Perhaps our entire UK approach is too fragmented for there to ever be any accord.  It may also be that we don't,  as a nation,  view horses as being about business and we fail to see the profit and loss aspect.  I'm not sure exactly why life's as it is,  but we certainly continue to flounder.

Alec.


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## Asha (12 August 2017)

It started out as a great idea. Lovely relaxed experience for the foals / youngsters too.  Less venues this years was disappointing, I for one wouldn't travel a foal to a show that's 2hrs away.

Have they said if they intend to replace it with anything ?


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## popsdosh (12 August 2017)

Asha said:



			It started out as a great idea. Lovely relaxed experience for the foals / youngsters too.  Less venues this years was disappointing, I for one wouldn't travel a foal to a show that's 2hrs away.

Have they said if they intend to replace it with anything ?
		
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What can it be replaced with ? its financially unviable and the BEF have finite resources. IMO it never did have any value there was no level playing field  on the continent linear assessment is a lot better understood and it really wasnt being used here.


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## cundlegreen (19 August 2017)

popsdosh said:



			What can it be replaced with ? its financially unviable and the BEF have finite resources. IMO it never did have any value there was no level playing field  on the continent linear assessment is a lot better understood and it really wasnt being used here.
		
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I was very disenchanted with the new format of only one evaluator. Mine have had a very good record with the old format, and I also struggled to get my head around the linear assessment, as prospective buyers really wanted to see the paper with remarks written. I didn't bother this year, couldn't see the point of it.


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## Violet (28 August 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			It would be interesting to know,  conversely,  if there are any foals which the judges didn't care for and which went on to prove their critics wrong!
Alec.
		
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I took one of mine to the evaluation some years ago. I entered him in the eventing section for foals. The first thing the evaluator asked for was the stallions name. I told him and he then said I should have been in the dressage section as it was a Hanoverian stallion. This was a dual purpose stallion having show jumped and competed in dressage. 
The mare was 15/16 TB and 1/16 Arab and she had done everything from team chasing, affiliated jumping, advanced level endurance and affiliated dressage. Sound all her life.
We were placed towards the end. Looking up the 12 entries from that day only 2 got BE points of 4 named on BE website as of today. Although mine hasn't done eventing he got placed in BYEH classes and has won Novice and Discovery show jumping. I let someone else compete him for me and I just enjoy hacking him every day. His younger full brother also got placed in BYEH classes and is now doing his first season in BE Novice and has so far gone clear cross country each time and has BE points.
I didn't take this brother for evaluation due to the earlier evaluator's comment and I had bred with eventing in mind. Interesting to see the large number of continental event horses with Hanoverian x tb blood now days.


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## Springs (30 August 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Is anyone surprised?  It was an experiment which failed. The simple fact is that a crystal ball is not the way to adjudge the potential of a young horse.  Five years ago I asked,  and on here,  if there were any youngsters which were given Elite status which had come through to support the judge's opinions and it seems that there were too few to support the efficacy of what's no more than an opinion.

It would be interesting to know,  conversely,  if there are any foals which the judges didn't care for and which went on to prove their critics wrong!



Alec.
		
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I have been looking at the data for the horses that have qualified for the 5yo British Eventing Young Horse Championships this year and although the data is still work in progress I have the following.

 As of 30/8 there is potential 67 five year olds that have qualified for this years championship and of those 5 have been presented at the futurity at some point, with scores ranging from 7.93 to 9.18. 

A total 17 sires with are recorded as having youngstock that have been presented at the futurity over the years have youngstock that have qualified for this years championship.

Looking at the youngster with a score of 7.93 achieved as a 3yo you would expect not to see that horse in the line up. The others who have qualified have scores ranging from 8 - 8.05 - 8.14 - 8.43 - 8.5 8.97 - 9.0 - 9.18 - 8.52 - 8.5. so you may also question any scores below 8.5 as having the likelihood to qualify. It would be nice to have time to run the data on the horses that did not qualify for the championship, but who were presented at the futurity and what score they achieved to compare.

At this point I still need to run the BE data on all of the horses but I have looked at one or two and the horse with the 7.93 and the 2nd premium could actually come in the top 10 or win as the record is exceptional with 8 starts and only once out of the top ten, but then anything can happen on the day.

Just rambling on.


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## sywell (31 August 2017)

I was on the working group that set up the Futurity and it should have produced a pot of money for the breeder of the top horse going into competition and in the first year I received money for my first premium foal. I always had first premiums for my foals. In the early years there were washup meetings attended by interested parties but these seemed to have stopped at some point. All my foals received first premiums except one we could not load. The move to linear profiling was very welcome but not having been involved with the BEF version I cannot comment. I did ask Stock from VIT at a meeting in Copenhagen how you helped older judges to adapt to the new method and she said an assistant could stand with the judge and record the advice on the laptop or hand held device. If you do not understand linear profiling look at the WBFSH Website/ General Assembly 2013 and the VIT presentation. One of the problems in following up horses that were premium foals is they move owners/country and name as Hellstron in her research found out in looking into how breeding programs improved the age of horses in competition and how breeding programs improved their health and competition life span. I do not support the policy of having CEO administrators coming from industry to run the disciplines as you need a long term understanding of the equine sector to choose the right path. I am not in favour of the influence of TV on our sport as it is not something the general public can understand who never go near horses our local primary school came to visit one year and they were terrified to touch a horse (or was that the teacher). I have not supported the idea of pure dressage breeding programs as the champion at this years WBFSH/YHC has Lauries Crusader xx and Espri in the back pedigree. It was interesting to hear Kasselman and a German breeder argue  this at a meeting in 2000 at Verden.


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## chipbutty (1 September 2017)

Springs said:



			I have been looking at the data for the horses that have qualified for the 5yo British Eventing Young Horse Championships this year and although the data is still work in progress I have the following.

 As of 30/8 there is potential 67 five year olds that have qualified for this years championship and of those 5 have been presented at the futurity at some point, with scores ranging from 7.93 to 9.18. 

A total 17 sires with are recorded as having youngstock that have been presented at the futurity over the years have youngstock that have qualified for this years championship.

Looking at the youngster with a score of 7.93 achieved as a 3yo you would expect not to see that horse in the line up. The others who have qualified have scores ranging from 8 - 8.05 - 8.14 - 8.43 - 8.5 8.97 - 9.0 - 9.18 - 8.52 - 8.5. so you may also question any scores below 8.5 as having the likelihood to qualify. It would be nice to have time to run the data on the horses that did not qualify for the championship, but who were presented at the futurity and what score they achieved to compare.

At this point I still need to run the BE data on all of the horses but I have looked at one or two and the horse with the 7.93 and the 2nd premium could actually come in the top 10 or win as the record is exceptional with 8 starts and only once out of the top ten, but then anything can happen on the day.

Just rambling on.
		
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There could be several reasons why the 3YO had a score of 7.93.  It almost made a 1st premium. At the point of the grading it could have been over whelmed by the day and closed down, seen a lot of that. They then struggle to show off the athleticism required. It may well have got good marks for jump technique, good movement, but dragged down by that one area. It could even have been pulled back by the score from the vet, as it may have a conformational fault, which could affect future soundness.  But then as the owner of that horse Springs, perhaps you could highlight where it fell down ?

At the end of the day a first premium is to determine that the horse has the ability to compete at a national level, which BE100 is. So no surprise that a horse with 7.93 can do that


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## Springs (1 September 2017)

chipbutty said:



			There could be several reasons why the 3YO had a score of 7.93.  It almost made a 1st premium. At the point of the grading it could have been over whelmed by the day and closed down, seen a lot of that. They then struggle to show off the athleticism required. It may well have got good marks for jump technique, good movement, but dragged down by that one area. It could even have been pulled back by the score from the vet, as it may have a conformational fault, which could affect future soundness.  But then as the owner of that horse Springs, perhaps you could highlight where it fell down ?

At the end of the day a first premium is to determine that the horse has the ability to compete at a national level, which BE100 is. So no surprise that a horse with 7.93 can do that
		
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Thanks for your contribution but it would probably be more of a benefit if you stuck to the subject matter and not pick on an individuals horses achievement. It appears you have a little knowledge and may be of use to others to help British Breeding get things right in the future.


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## chipbutty (2 September 2017)

Springs said:



			Thanks for your contribution but it would probably be more of a benefit if you stuck to the subject matter and not pick on an individuals horses achievement. It appears you have a little knowledge and may be of use to others to help British Breeding get things right in the future.
		
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No need for the patronising tone Springs. You where the one who referred to the horse with the 7.93 score and its achievements. I was simply pointing out reasons it may have got a low score ! I also pointed out you must know why it got a low score. So why not fill in the gaps, and use this as an example ?

The BEF as yet, don't produce a document showing individual breakdowns, now this would be a great idea. they must have this, and could then produce a document relating back to the stallion showing the traits it passes on. ( similar to the KWPN system) 

I personally would like to see the BEF extended to following the horses under saddle in there chosen discipline. Elite status of a 3 year old is of no use or meaning unless it can perform as well under saddle. This could be done by linking in with the likes of BD,BSJA and BE.


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## Violet (2 September 2017)

chipbutty said:



			Elite status of a 3 year old is of no use or meaning unless it can perform as well under saddle. This could be done by linking in with the likes of BD,BSJA and BE.
		
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I would like that. Perhaps the status should be removed if not reaching a certain level in competition or a comment against the dam/sire.


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## crabbymare (2 September 2017)

It really is a shame that you cannot search the BD and BE (possibly also for BS) websites by life ID (or breeding) and that it is not used more. That would allow breeders who sell the horse on to follow what it has done in competition and would have let people follow horses through from futurity to competition results and may have given the futurity better status.


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## honetpot (2 September 2017)

I know this is not a perfect solution, but in the absence of any official will to add data on the horses performance to a database, why not use a commercial one, such as https://www.sporthorse-data.com/
 Yes it relies on people uploading their own data, if results were added some would be tempted to cook the books, but if you cross reference it with SHGB, and competition results available on line you would get a picture. 
  Perhaps if it was developed by users, who usually know what they want, rather than the great and the good giving us what they think we need it would be more fit for purpose. Tied into adds for stallions and young stock perhaps it could pay for its self.


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## sywell (3 September 2017)

The future of British breeding depends on a database of verified information and as the BEF could not run the NED as they would not take the advice of the stakeholders because they really did not understand how  sports horse breeding works relating the young horse evaluations with their success in competition and to make the cycle of breeding as short as possible. The future lies in genomic selection but this again relies on verified data linked to the genome that is identified as relating to that trait as the agricultural industry has show. I saw a research document on 30,000 cattle to show how well  genomic selection has worked. There are not enough breeders who have access to that data held by the big studbook KWPN & VhW are two that have been mentioned. The Equine Register had ambitions to go down this route but may have been restricted by DEFRA who do not want to have any thing to do with parentage. The new database should have been in operation by July 2016 by EU regulation we are still waiting.,
.


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## popsdosh (4 September 2017)

Springs said:



			Thanks for your contribution but it would probably be more of a benefit if you stuck to the subject matter and not pick on an individuals horses achievement. It appears you have a little knowledge and may be of use to others to help British Breeding get things right in the future.
		
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Actually it is very informative in that how important is the Dam line for producing the goods as She has done so much better than her sire! Its amazing how so many of us who know nothing(according to you) can turn out so right at the end of the day. Have been following BE results with interest this year im guessing that gene pool wont be expanding to much in the future.
If you will try and promote your own horses on a forum expect them to be shot down in flames if they fail to produce the goods. Tip for the future dont mention to many specifics that actually can lead to identifying the horse as others have just as much knowledge of the youngsters qualified and there background.


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## popsdosh (4 September 2017)

Double post. God its slow tonight.


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## popsdosh (4 September 2017)

sywell said:



			The future of British breeding depends on a database of verified information and as the BEF could not run the NED as they would not take the advice of the stakeholders because they really did not understand how  sports horse breeding works relating the young horse evaluations with their success in competition and to make the cycle of breeding as short as possible. The future lies in genomic selection but this again relies on verified data linked to the genome that is identified as relating to that trait as the agricultural industry has show. I saw a research document on 30,000 cattle to show how well  genomic selection has worked. There are not enough breeders who have access to that data held by the big studbook KWPN & VhW are two that have been mentioned. The Equine Register had ambitions to go down this route but may have been restricted by DEFRA who do not want to have any thing to do with parentage. The new database should have been in operation by July 2016 by EU regulation we are still waiting.,
.
		
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Indeed Sywell, cattle breeding is light years ahead, One of the reasons for short herd life in particularly Holstein dairy cows is the speed of genetic improvement guaranteeing that the next generation is better than the present one. 

The problem with the equine register is that the two functions are separate in all ways and a national database is only really about ID and compliance and breed stud books should be about performance. The same as it is with cattle ,all linear assessments and performance data are held by breed socs although much of this work is contracted out to one or two specialist analytical suppliers. All ID and movements are run by BCMS who I still think should be running the equine identity passporting.


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## honetpot (4 September 2017)

The trouble is with cows, they breed at a lot younger age than horses, and it usually a simple measurement of amount of milk produced versus the amount of food put in or their dead weight. Farmers keep these records because it saves them money, they cull the ones that have poor feet, bad calvers, or are aggressive and they can breed replacements quickly and tend to have fairly large herds to collect data from.
  The production of the horse is totally different. There is just no enough money in it, even to cover your costs, to breed, the bigger breeder usually run along with another agri business. The hobby breeder like me can spend a couple of thousand before it gets to a yearling so will only breeder one or two a year.
  Then who produces them. Most people who own horses are not pro's, they are livery yards without the time or facilities of a pro yard, so your buyer even with the best intentions may not get the best out of the animal.
  I went to one of the HIS stallion parades, I was just as interested in how they handled, I do not want to live with a nutter, as what they said they could produce. 
   I am sure there are some people who want to produce elite horses, a bit like some people breed racehorses and show animals with their eyes on results, but I think the true test is what happens to the less than elite and how it fairs in the world of DIY livery yard. Or perhaps like cows we just shoot them.


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## popsdosh (4 September 2017)

honetpot said:



			The trouble is with cows, they breed at a lot younger age than horses, and it usually a simple measurement of amount of milk produced versus the amount of food put in or their dead weight. Farmers keep these records because it saves them money, they cull the ones that have poor feet, bad calvers, or are aggressive and they can breed replacements quickly and tend to have fairly large herds to collect data from.
  The production of the horse is totally different. There is just no enough money in it, even to cover your costs, to breed, the bigger breeder usually run along with another agri business. The hobby breeder like me can spend a couple of thousand before it gets to a yearling so will only breeder one or two a year.
  Then who produces them. Most people who own horses are not pro's, they are livery yards without the time or facilities of a pro yard, so your buyer even with the best intentions may not get the best out of the animal.
  I went to one of the HIS stallion parades, I was just as interested in how they handled, I do not want to live with a nutter, as what they said they could produce. 
   I am sure there are some people who want to produce elite horses, a bit like some people breed racehorses and show animals with their eyes on results, but I think the true test is what happens to the less than elite and how it fairs in the world of DIY livery yard. Or perhaps like cows we just shoot them.
		
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Cows and horses tend to breed at much the same ages and are capable of doing so. If you think that cow genetic data is limited to performance you would be well wide of the mark. they are scored on all the traits you suggest they are culled for.Indeed in recent years overall health traits have been becoming more important than production they are no good being highly productive if they cant walk or breed!
Surely the trait of being handled is more down to nurture than nature its very easy to mix up the two(and very easy in a parade to disguise)a quiet to handle stallion does not guarantee the offspring are the same and visa versa . In a properly run recording system all breeding traits could be assessed in the horse and indeed the bigger the cohort the better the reliability but thats no excuse for not starting. The europeans have for years been well ahead however they are not so squeamish about eating the poor ones that inevitably will arise from any breeding at any level. If only every horse we bred could be perfect ,however linear assessment makes that more likely. In the UK we tend to keep the rubbish no wonder we are so far behind the more enlightened breeders.


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## honetpot (5 September 2017)

I never said a cows data was limited to performance.
I think you are trying to equate a European system with the UK, which has a much smaller land mass and therefore availability of cheap grazing. Some people do cover mares at three but in the UK its not the norm, the cost of semen straws for cattle is really cheap in comparison, and the cost of insemination also.
  So you breed your UK foal, it costs you £1500 before it hits the floor. Yes in the UK we probably keep the rubbish,(depending what criteria you use) and try to make the best of a bad job, but few people can either afford to completely lose their investment as threads on here will attest and there is also attachment to the animal to overcome.
   I want to know where your herd of 30 plus mares covered and kept to a standardised regime to produce a baseline data. If you have cattle , and more farmers are using closed herds, its a easier to produce animals that suit your system of production. With horses there are too many variables, you are producing an animal that you have no idea how it will be kept or ridden. With dairy or beef cattle the management systems are basically the same, yes some people are better stock keepers, but that shows on their balance sheet and lets face it a beef store is not going to get to three. 
  I have spare grass, I have decided I am better investing £1500 on some cattle what ever the breed as long as they look well and a least get my money back. What ever the mare/stallion you choose, it money badly spent.


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## popsdosh (5 September 2017)

honetpot said:



			I never said a cows data was limited to performance.
I think you are trying to equate a European system with the UK, which has a much smaller land mass and therefore availability of cheap grazing. Some people do cover mares at three but in the UK its not the norm, the cost of semen straws for cattle is really cheap in comparison, and the cost of insemination also.
  So you breed your UK foal, it costs you £1500 before it hits the floor. Yes in the UK we probably keep the rubbish,(depending what criteria you use) and try to make the best of a bad job, but few people can either afford to completely lose their investment as threads on here will attest and there is also attachment to the animal to overcome.
   I want to know where your herd of 30 plus mares covered and kept to a standardised regime to produce a baseline data. If you have cattle , and more farmers are using closed herds, its a easier to produce animals that suit your system of production. With horses there are too many variables, you are producing an animal that you have no idea how it will be kept or ridden. With dairy or beef cattle the management systems are basically the same, yes some people are better stock keepers, but that shows on their balance sheet and lets face it a beef store is not going to get to three. 
  I have spare grass, I have decided I am better investing £1500 on some cattle what ever the breed as long as they look well and a least get my money back. What ever the mare/stallion you choose, it money badly spent.
		
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It depends on if you wish to breed horses for a hobby or as a purpose . Im afraid a £ 1500 foal that is not up to standard is economically better off culled than more money wasted on it. It costs the same to keep a good one as a bad one.


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## sywell (5 September 2017)

honetpot said:



			The trouble is with cows, they breed at a lot younger age than horses, and it usually a simple measurement of amount of milk produced versus the amount of food put in or their dead weight. Farmers keep these records because it saves them money, they cull the ones that have poor feet, bad calvers, or are aggressive and they can breed replacements quickly and tend to have fairly large herds to collect data from.
  The production of the horse is totally different. There is just no enough money in it, even to cover your costs, to breed, the bigger breeder usually run along with another agri business. The hobby breeder like me can spend a couple of thousand before it gets to a yearling so will only breeder one or two a year.
  Then who produces them. Most people who own horses are not pro's, they are livery yards without the time or facilities of a pro yard, so your buyer even with the best intentions may not get the best out of the animal.
  I went to one of the HIS stallion parades, I was just as interested in how they handled, I do not want to live with a nutter, as what they said they could produce. 
   I am sure there are some people who want to produce elite horses, a bit like some people breed racehorses and show animals with their eyes on results, but I think the true test is what happens to the less than elite and how it fairs in the world of DIY livery yard. Or perhaps like cows we just shoot them.
		
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I understand that genomic selection in cattle is producing healthier cows but this was a side issue.


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## honetpot (5 September 2017)

Crumbs, if a £1500 foal is a waste of money then most of the stallion keepers in the UK should shut up shop and there will be no horses for the average rider to buy. We are not breeding racehorses where there is the potential to win the jackpot either with prize money or money for potential stud. 
  There average stud fee in the UK seems to be about £500, these are animals whose offspring have often scored well at BEF, but I look for stallions that produce a nicely conformed animal with trainability of offspring at any level if they do or do not compete. I could spend more, buts enough of a gamble as it is. If £1500 is the cost price, not including the mares keep,how much do you suggest we spend?
   Realistically most people do not spend £4000+ on a foal. If you a breeding to make money that is the sort of price you should be charging, but they have to keep it for three years. Perhaps we should have a survey of how many H&Hers have their own land, because you have to run this animal on until its three, often turned out with other horses you have no control of with the potential for field injury.
   I live around Newmarket so I have visited the top studs in the area, and seen the amount of investment there is in land, staff and veterinary services and there is potential for the breeder to make money. There product is sold or produced and  at roughly 18months is being ridden and by two is trying to earn them money and the wastage is huge.
   I am sure that you feel that we are wasting our time trying to produce a rideable horse that has the potential to do well in competitions with the resources we have, but that is the reality for most people. If you are trying to make every horse produced the equivalent if an F1 car then like the sport if F1 it will only be a sport for spectators and only be for F1 riders. The top of the pyramid is very small.

   The old HIS system did what it said on the tin. I can remember the stallion coming in a trailer, covering the mare in the yard. Times have moved on and of course we do not expect this now, but I remember the foal produced by this stallion and it was a cracker that went on to live a long useful life. It seems to me in that in our attempts to improve the system all that has happened is that has become more expensive for the breeder with no real evidence to back up that expense. I think a simple web site that you upload your own data, what ever your breed, with passport Reg Number, paid for by adverts would be better than nothing


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## popsdosh (5 September 2017)

honetpot said:



			Crumbs, if a £1500 foal is a waste of money then most of the stallion keepers in the UK should shut up shop and there will be no horses for the average rider to buy. We are not breeding racehorses where there is the potential to win the jackpot either with prize money or money for potential stud. 
  There average stud fee in the UK seems to be about £500, these are animals whose offspring have often scored well at BEF, but I look for stallions that produce a nicely conformed animal with trainability of offspring at any level if they do or do not compete. I could spend more, buts enough of a gamble as it is. If £1500 is the cost price, not including the mares keep,how much do you suggest we spend?
   Realistically most people do not spend £4000+ on a foal. If you a breeding to make money that is the sort of price you should be charging, but they have to keep it for three years. Perhaps we should have a survey of how many H&Hers have their own land, because you have to run this animal on until its three, often turned out with other horses you have no control of with the potential for field injury.
   I live around Newmarket so I have visited the top studs in the area, and seen the amount of investment there is in land, staff and veterinary services and there is potential for the breeder to make money. There product is sold or produced and  at roughly 18months is being ridden and by two is trying to earn them money and the wastage is huge.
   I am sure that you feel that we are wasting our time trying to produce a rideable horse that has the potential to do well in competitions with the resources we have, but that is the reality for most people. If you are trying to make every horse produced the equivalent if an F1 car then like the sport if F1 it will only be a sport for spectators and only be for F1 riders. The top of the pyramid is very small.

   The old HIS system did what it said on the tin. I can remember the stallion coming in a trailer, covering the mare in the yard. Times have moved on and of course we do not expect this now, but I remember the foal produced by this stallion and it was a cracker that went on to live a long useful life. It seems to me in that in our attempts to improve the system all that has happened is that has become more expensive for the breeder with no real evidence to back up that expense. I think a simple web site that you upload your own data, what ever your breed, with passport Reg Number, paid for by adverts would be better than nothing
		
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That is why I suggest BCMS should carry out all id passporting . Im sure as you have cattle you are fully aware of what they do.

I never said a £1500 foal is a waste of money ,however keeping any foal that is not correct in any way at what ever it cost to produce is wasting money . You are chucking good money after bad im afraid.


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## crabbymare (5 September 2017)

honetpot said:



			Crumbs, if a £1500 foal is a waste of money then most of the stallion keepers in the UK should shut up shop and there will be no horses for the average rider to buy. We are not breeding racehorses where there is the potential to win the jackpot either with prize money or money for potential stud. 
  There average stud fee in the UK seems to be about £500, these are animals whose offspring have often scored well at BEF, but I look for stallions that produce a nicely conformed animal with trainability of offspring at any level if they do or do not compete. I could spend more, buts enough of a gamble as it is. If £1500 is the cost price, not including the mares keep,how much do you suggest we spend?
   Realistically most people do not spend £4000+ on a foal. If you a breeding to make money that is the sort of price you should be charging, but they have to keep it for three years. Perhaps we should have a survey of how many H&Hers have their own land, because you have to run this animal on until its three, often turned out with other horses you have no control of with the potential for field injury.
   I live around Newmarket so I have visited the top studs in the area, and seen the amount of investment there is in land, staff and veterinary services and there is potential for the breeder to make money. There product is sold or produced and  at roughly 18months is being ridden and by two is trying to earn them money and the wastage is huge.
   I am sure that you feel that we are wasting our time trying to produce a rideable horse that has the potential to do well in competitions with the resources we have, but that is the reality for most people. If you are trying to make every horse produced the equivalent if an F1 car then like the sport if F1 it will only be a sport for spectators and only be for F1 riders. The top of the pyramid is very small.

   The old HIS system did what it said on the tin. I can remember the stallion coming in a trailer, covering the mare in the yard. Times have moved on and of course we do not expect this now, but I remember the foal produced by this stallion and it was a cracker that went on to live a long useful life. It seems to me in that in our attempts to improve the system all that has happened is that has become more expensive for the breeder with no real evidence to back up that expense. I think a simple web site that you upload your own data, what ever your breed, with passport Reg Number, paid for by adverts would be better than nothing
		
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That is exactly the problem with comparing the british breeding with the continent. There is absolutely nothing wrong with breeding horses for the average rider (regardless of if you consider average to be non competitive or someone who competes to average affiliated standard), but in the UK there is a very different mindset to continental Europe. Here more people hack and will possibly have a lesson once a month if they are not competing, whereas on the continent its generally more based towards lessons than hacking  Breeders abroad will happily pay 1-2000&#8364; for a good stallion and consider that normal with foals selling for prices that will normally at least cover the costs of producing them but even there some people think the breeder is overcharging. My foal in Germany has cost the stud fee, plus scans plus keep for the mare, luckily it has been straightforwards and she is exactly what I had hoped for. If she had been a colt she would have a price tag around double what she will sell for as a filly, thats how things are there. She is from a line of SPS mares and at the moment is looking as if she could continue that, or she is also bred to compete with hopefully a brain that an amatur can enjoy, and should sell for a price that will cover all the costs which would be unlikely to happen in the UK. Until the UK can get the record keeping sorted out and make the bloodlines traceable through the generations it will be really hard to see what each mare has produced and for buyers to know what lines to look for. The smaller breeder is at a disadvantage because the buyers cannot easily trace offspring from the mare or damline, whereas on the continent it is easier to look up. To get buyers (usually competition ones) to pay better prices we need to produce (trainable) foals/horses that are comparable to the ones abroad with a tracable damline, and from stallions that are known for producing trainable, sound stock that again have records in the ring at affiliated level, be that dressage, jumping, eventing, driving or showing as that will then trickle down to peole who want a sane hack or unaffiliated all round fun horse. A good database is key, and until there is one that works properly and is used by all disciplines we are always going to be playing catchup to the continent when it comes to attracting buyers for stock.


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## sywell (5 September 2017)

So much sense said in this thread but much i have known for over 20 years and having seen the spread of data available to continent breeders i have always said that we must do things the English way but use their technical  knowledge to our advantage. As an example the stallion De Niro has 1499 foals registerd  Hanoverian 185 competing at Advanced Dressage Prix St George breeding value 137 dressage from  538 mares (accuracy 99%. There is also the breeding value from mare performance test and the auction inspection evaluation an EBV of 118 his jumping EBV is 72. Values over 100 are a positive above the average mean the average is a rolling average as standards improve. Where can we get this kind f data here without total collaberation from the disciplines and the BEF.


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## honetpot (8 September 2017)

popsdosh said:



			That is why I suggest BCMS should carry out all id passporting . Im sure as you have cattle you are fully aware of what they do.

I never said a £1500 foal is a waste of money ,however keeping any foal that is not correct in any way at what ever it cost to produce is wasting money . You are chucking good money after bad im afraid.
		
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  And I never said a I was running on a poor quality cost price £1500 foal. I said that my £1500 would be perhaps better spent on store cattle which I was just about guaranteed a return on my £1500 at about 30months
   Most breeders in the UK are hobby breeders. The saying is,' fools breed horses so that wise men can ride'.
If anybody has a business model that shows there is any profit, or even covering your costs, in breeding and foal in the UK, which includes that cost of the land, buildings, feed vet costs, etc I would love to see it.

   I would love for a the vested interests in the UK to get their heads together and put all their data in one database. My husband used to work for IBM and was part of big data projects and knows all about the politics of data. There is a way of doing it, and the quickest way would probably for a commercial company to get access to it. Something like, Comparethemarket.com, who would sell you an app for your phone. There are also programmes to collect data from screen, so its possible, it just needs money.
   The breed societies in the UK were frightened of losing power and we ended up with all the PIO's, the cost of a basic passport should be next to nothing, but they saw it as a revenue stream. It would be far better if there was one register, with perhaps the breeds getting a % for each animal registered, a once only fee. The BCPS now has Wetherbys doing it.


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## sywell (10 September 2017)

I think there is some misunderstanding of the role of studbooks who have different breeding aims the Holstien and Hanoverian aims are very similar but the core objective is different. It is a fallacy for people to claim that passports are income for breed societies as DNA verified pedigrees where the cost of the DNA to the larger organisations is a s low as 20 Euros. We live in a global economy and horses and their semen are international commodities as and example Brazil imports frozen semen and in the UK many breeders import chilled semen. DEFRA has the idea which while we were in the EU they could not follow  that they would issue the passport but of course with no pedigree. A rough guide to the cost of a quality sports horse foal with good EBV would be about £3000 and as you say in Germany it is much cheaper to produce a foal and keep one. You must not confuse ID only PIOs with studbooks,studbooks rely on the product to survive not the income from passports.


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## honetpot (10 September 2017)

You are right stud books should be a separate issue from PIO, but not in the UK. I was a member of three breed societies and they were so worried that they would lose control of the stud book they became PIO, and used the revenue. Some societies/PIO charged as little as £12/some charge £40 or more, this is without DNA. This is a quote from the HPS,
'All Highland ponies are issued with a Registration Certificate and passport at registration. It is not possible to transfer ownership without both documents. You should make every effort to ensure that you receive a Registration Certificate along with the passport from the Seller. 
If the Registration Certificate is lost, an application has to be made to the Council of the Society who will investigate the circumstances thoroughly. If approval for the issue of duplicate papers is given, there is a fee of £50 (members' rate) and £100 (non members' rate). '
  So there is still a misunderstanding about passports and the role they play. I think a £100 , not even for the passport is just generating revenue, as they have to transfer the ownership to comply with DEFRA rules.


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## Springs (13 September 2017)

chipbutty said:



			No need for the patronising tone Springs. You where the one who referred to the horse with the 7.93 score and its achievements. I was simply pointing out reasons it may have got a low score ! I also pointed out you must know why it got a low score. So why not fill in the gaps, and use this as an example ?

The BEF as yet, don't produce a document showing individual breakdowns, now this would be a great idea. they must have this, and could then produce a document relating back to the stallion showing the traits it passes on. ( similar to the KWPN system) 

I personally would like to see the BEF extended to following the horses under saddle in there chosen discipline. Elite status of a 3 year old is of no use or meaning unless it can perform as well under saddle. This could be done by linking in with the likes of BD,BSJA and BE.
		
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No Patronising intended just amusement at the sudden interest in one of my posts, There are others on here who become keyboard warriors when I post which is also quite amusing.

At the end of the day the horse in question scored that on the day and that's it, could she have done better maybe, but at the time that's what she achieved.  

I have given some thought to linking the futurity scores to BD, BS and BE. this makes a logical next step to see the complete performance record of a horse in one place. The challenge however is the ability to quickly sort through the information to get any real information, BE is quite simple to use, open to the public and the information is easily searched, BS and BD are a real pain with access and being able to search etc, the links between the futurity and the disciplines should be straightforward to implement. Trying to get all the different stud books to share there data is probably a none starter, that's unless the BEF applied pressure to drive the sharing of information but that again could just add too much complexity.


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## Springs (13 September 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Actually it is very informative in that how important is the Dam line for producing the goods as She has done so much better than her sire! Its amazing how so many of us who know nothing(according to you) can turn out so right at the end of the day. Have been following BE results with interest this year im guessing that gene pool wont be expanding to much in the future.
If you will try and promote your own horses on a forum expect them to be shot down in flames if they fail to produce the goods. Tip for the future dont mention to many specifics that actually can lead to identifying the horse as others have just as much knowledge of the youngsters qualified and there background.
		
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Sorry to disappoint you but the gene pool for that boy is doing very well. You know its all about the youngsters and how they perform. I also have generally been looking at the data for this championship and the only reason for this is because we have an interest in them, so you may also be disappointed about this and in fact you and others are doing all the promotion for me. Thanks.


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## chipbutty (13 September 2017)

Springs said:



			No Patronising intended just amusement at the sudden interest in one of my posts, There are others on here who become keyboard warriors when I post which is also quite amusing.

At the end of the day the horse in question scored that on the day and that's it, could she have done better maybe, but at the time that's what she achieved.  

I have given some thought to linking the futurity scores to BD, BS and BE. this makes a logical next step to see the complete performance record of a horse in one place. The challenge however is the ability to quickly sort through the information to get any real information, BE is quite simple to use, open to the public and the information is easily searched, BS and BD are a real pain with access and being able to search etc, the links between the futurity and the disciplines should be straightforward to implement. Trying to get all the different stud books to share there data is probably a none starter, that's unless the BEF applied pressure to drive the sharing of information but that again could just add too much complexity.
		
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I'm no keyboard warrior ! Just interested in getting more information.

I don't feel there's any need to get the stud books to link in with the BEF. In fact that may be a good thing, as it should be completely unbiased. The BEF have produced rankings linked back to the stallion ( however, I cant see this at the minute). This could just be extended to show the linear scoring by its offspring as opposed to just an overall score. That way, every breeder can see what the stallion does / doesn't add.

I'm no IT expert, but surely it wouldn't be difficult to add a drop down box on each application to BS/BD/BE etc to state 'futurity', then the data inputted could be pulled through to the rankings on the BEF rankings site.


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## cundlegreen (13 September 2017)

honetpot said:



			Crumbs, if a £1500 foal is a waste of money then most of the stallion keepers in the UK should shut up shop and there will be no horses for the average rider to buy. We are not breeding racehorses where there is the potential to win the jackpot either with prize money or money for potential stud. 
  There average stud fee in the UK seems to be about £500, these are animals whose offspring have often scored well at BEF, but I look for stallions that produce a nicely conformed animal with trainability of offspring at any level if they do or do not compete. I could spend more, buts enough of a gamble as it is. If £1500 is the cost price, not including the mares keep,how much do you suggest we spend?
   Realistically most people do not spend £4000+ on a foal. If you a breeding to make money that is the sort of price you should be charging, but they have to keep it for three years. Perhaps we should have a survey of how many H&Hers have their own land, because you have to run this animal on until its three, often turned out with other horses you have no control of with the potential for field injury.
   I live around Newmarket so I have visited the top studs in the area, and seen the amount of investment there is in land, staff and veterinary services and there is potential for the breeder to make money. There product is sold or produced and  at roughly 18months is being ridden and by two is trying to earn them money and the wastage is huge.
   I am sure that you feel that we are wasting our time trying to produce a rideable horse that has the potential to do well in competitions with the resources we have, but that is the reality for most people. If you are trying to make every horse produced the equivalent if an F1 car then like the sport if F1 it will only be a sport for spectators and only be for F1 riders. The top of the pyramid is very small.

   The old HIS system did what it said on the tin. I can remember the stallion coming in a trailer, covering the mare in the yard. Times have moved on and of course we do not expect this now, but I remember the foal produced by this stallion and it was a cracker that went on to live a long useful life. It seems to me in that in our attempts to improve the system all that has happened is that has become more expensive for the breeder with no real evidence to back up that expense. I think a simple web site that you upload your own data, what ever your breed, with passport Reg Number, paid for by adverts would be better than nothing
		
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Something like sportshorse data then?


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## popsdosh (13 September 2017)

Springs said:



			Sorry to disappoint you but the gene pool for that boy is doing very well. You know its all about the youngsters and how they perform. I also have generally been looking at the data for this championship and the only reason for this is because we have an interest in them, so you may also be disappointed about this and in fact you and others are doing all the promotion for me. Thanks.
		
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Well he doesnt promote himself does he . I think I suggested earlier in the year you should give up BE but you had to try and prove something , If you had listened he would not have become damaged goods and I dont know many breeders of event horses who would not look up the record. Sorry but thats fact! Luckily BE is open for all to see.


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## popsdosh (13 September 2017)

Springs said:



			No Patronising intended just amusement at the sudden interest in one of my posts, There are others on here who become keyboard warriors when I post which is also quite amusing.

At the end of the day the horse in question scored that on the day and that's it, could she have done better maybe, but at the time that's what she achieved.  

I have given some thought to linking the futurity scores to BD, BS and BE. this makes a logical next step to see the complete performance record of a horse in one place. The challenge however is the ability to quickly sort through the information to get any real information, BE is quite simple to use, open to the public and the information is easily searched, BS and BD are a real pain with access and being able to search etc, the links between the futurity and the disciplines should be straightforward to implement. Trying to get all the different stud books to share there data is probably a none starter, that's unless the BEF applied pressure to drive the sharing of information but that again could just add too much complexity.
		
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It wont happen ! The thread is about the futurity coming to an end,so somewhat futile to go on. trying to link any other data
I have yet to have any buyer be remotely interested by futurity results they buy on what they see in front of them and a strong Dam line. I always had it hammered into me that the last thing you ever look at when buying a competition horse is the breeding if the rest isnt right the pedigree is worthless. An example would be a eventing futurity champion right through the ages who at four couldnt even trot sound a few strides ,why wasnt this spotted at a younger age as all the signs were there but hey it was winning on its breeding. I actually was offered the horse by a dealer as a broodmare (recipient) they hadnt a clue who she was but one look at the passport and I recognised the breeding.


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## Alec Swan (13 September 2017)

popsdosh said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. ! The thread is about the futurity coming to an end,so somewhat futile to go on. trying to link any other data &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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This thread,  being one which you started,  concerns the perceived value of the Futurities.  The subsequent data offered,  I'd suggest,  supports your argument.

I'd agree with you that a pedigree is of no value whatsoever and regardless of breeding,  without supporting evidence,  and that without such support then no horse (OK so precious few) would be of future value to any breeding programme.

Alec.


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## popsdosh (14 September 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			This thread,  being one which you started,  concerns the perceived value of the Futurities.  The subsequent data offered,  I'd suggest,  supports your argument.

I'd agree with you that a pedigree is of no value whatsoever and regardless of breeding,  without supporting evidence,  and that without such support then no horse (OK so precious few) would be of future value to any breeding programme.

Alec.
		
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I can see a future in Eventing breeding in particular where the stallion will have to prove their own ability in combat as such. In SJ and dressage now stallions compete to a degree with no issues . However even within these disciplines it is becoming more common to have them gelded once a store of frozen semen is established and there is no reason this should not happen in Eventing on a larger scale and indeed be of more benefit as it on the whole difficult to get a stallion to perform at their best as a certain other poster can attest to. A pedigree alone as with buying horses does not sell a stallion but producing the goods does.


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## chipbutty (14 September 2017)

I phoned the BEF this morning. The futurity is going to be taken over by another company. So there will be a format next year, details will be announced soon.


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## TheMule (14 September 2017)

chipbutty said:



			I phoned the BEF this morning. The futurity is going to be taken over by another company. So there will be a format next year, details will be announced soon.
		
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That's good news, there are lots of good things about the futurity and it would be a shame to lose it. I've taken 3 foals now and I think it's an excellent first outing for them. They've gained varying scores but all have been a fair representation and backed up by useful comments.


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## chipbutty (14 September 2017)

TheMule said:



			That's good news, there are lots of good things about the futurity and it would be a shame to lose it. I've taken 3 foals now and I think it's an excellent first outing for them. They've gained varying scores but all have been a fair representation and backed up by useful comments.
		
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I agree its great news. Lets hope the new company takes it to the next level.


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## cundlegreen (14 September 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I can see a future in Eventing breeding in particular where the stallion will have to prove their own ability in combat as such. In SJ and dressage now stallions compete to a degree with no issues . However even within these disciplines it is becoming more common to have them gelded once a store of frozen semen is established and there is no reason this should not happen in Eventing on a larger scale and indeed be of more benefit as it on the whole difficult to get a stallion to perform at their best as a certain other poster can attest to. A pedigree alone as with buying horses does not sell a stallion but producing the goods does.
		
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Don't forget the mare! I look to see what the dam, or at least the granddam has done in competition. The sounder they have stayed, the better!


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## Springs (17 September 2017)

chipbutty said:



			I phoned the BEF this morning. The futurity is going to be taken over by another company. So there will be a format next year, details will be announced soon.
		
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Ideally the BBN would be the best organisation to take this on with support from the breeders, studbooks and BEF which in some respects they already have. We will have to wait and see.


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