# Arrived with No Health Papers



## winchester (25 June 2010)

If Chilled arrived from abroad with no health papers (no paperwork at all) - was the Royal Veterinary College right to refuse inseminating my mare?


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## Holly831 (25 June 2010)

IMO?    YES!

I would not risk using it without health papers, I know it is more than likely a genuine error but it would be too late if the stallion is found to have something.....


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## parkside (25 June 2010)

Oh that is an interesting one. We have inseminated a number of mares over the last 2 years - all chilled semen - admittedly 3 different studs and 5 different stallions - and all studs I know and who I have used previously...but different stallions - no health papers from any of the 3 studs and my vet never mentioned it - all he doe is reproductive work too!


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## maestro (25 June 2010)

Defra are getting really hot these days on the original paperwork being present so the vets in many cases quite rightly being correct in not inseminating with out paperwork.


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## parkside (25 June 2010)

mmmm......let me think....perhaps my vet could give me a reduction on his fees for this oversight on his part. Worth a try!


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## Ciss (25 June 2010)

winchester said:



			If Chilled arrived from abroad with no health papers (no paperwork at all) - was the Royal Veterinary College right to refuse inseminating my mare?
		
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Afraid so, especially as the transmisison will not show up on TRACES. Part of the problem is that becuase we are 1 hr behind mainland Europe the Ministry vet will often have left before the UK order arrives / is notified by a telephone call so the stud either has to send the semen wothout the health papers or send it a day later and possibly miss the season. There is a move for faxed / photocopied papers to be made acceptable but I am not sure that these would be able to be recorded on TRACES either <sigh>. This is why there is a move to ask mare owners / vets in the UK to notify semen agents / studs in mainland Europe 48 hrs -- rather than 24hrs as at present -- before the order is required, but I think that most of us can immediately see what problems that might cause to mare owners in this country, especially of the mare has an irregular/ short season cycle :-(.


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## winchester (25 June 2010)

No No, i agree with my vet...  But others are saying he is wrong..

What is traces? (sorry still new to me) i was advised my vet should search on TRACES to see if he could find anything...


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## sallyf (25 June 2010)

parkside said:



			Oh that is an interesting one. We have inseminated a number of mares over the last 2 years - all chilled semen - admittedly 3 different studs and 5 different stallions - and all studs I know and who I have used previously...but different stallions - no health papers from any of the 3 studs and my vet never mentioned it - all he doe is reproductive work too!
		
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Was it English or European though as its European that needs health papers not semen in this country.
With european semen definately dont inseminate


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## AndyPandy (25 June 2010)

winchester said:



			If Chilled arrived from abroad with no health papers (no paperwork at all) - was the Royal Veterinary College right to refuse inseminating my mare?
		
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According to a recent communication that was sent to regular receivers of imported semen:




			The intra-community trade in equine semen is governed by Commission Decision 95/307EC. It provides a specimen health certificate and the conditions that apply for this trade. The certificate clearly states, Competent authority notes (b) the original of this certificate must accompany the consignment to the place of destination. 

In addition Directive 90/425/EEC Article 3.1 (d) states be accompanied by heath certificates as provided for in the Directives ...  

If the semen arrives without an original certificate it must be considered as non compliant and must not be used. The local Animal Health office must be notified. The importer is responsible for arranging with the relevant authority for the consignment to be re-exported.
		
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So yes, they were correct to do so, as frustrating as it is! This is one of the reasons we try to encourage mare owners to use frozen semen - these things can happen when ordering chilled semen from aborad!


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## markvannunen (25 June 2010)

The problem with shipping chilled semen is that we have to order the government veterinarian 48 hours prior to shipping. That is not really a problem for us as long as you order 48 hours before and that's where the problem is.

But... I wouldn't be to worried about the semen not having health papers. We don't do live coverings, only AI, so the stallion is never in contact with a "strange" horse and every beginning of the season they are tested for diseases.

My experience, by the way,  is that most UK vets just inseminate the semen. Also without the paperwork.


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## Ciss (25 June 2010)

markvannunen said:



			My experience, by the way,  is that most UK vets just inseminate the semen. Also without the paperwork.
		
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Not any more they're not, hence the problem the OP encountered. You could find yourself with siome pretty fed up Uk clients if you continue to do that in the future I'm afraid.


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## dianchi (25 June 2010)

Another reason to use british based stallions!


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## CheekyCob (26 June 2010)

Oh dear, this doesn't sound good. If Europeans are advertising their stallions in this country then they presumably want the business (money). If we British breeders are paying, up front, as we have to for the semen, surely we should expect that, as the mare owner, we will be supplied with, not only semen with the relevant paperwork to allow insemination but also any other documentation which legally should be supplied, i.e. covering certificates. We have paid, in good faith, money for goods, in this case semen, This payment includes not only the semen and relevant documentation to allow insemination but also the covering certificate to allow registration of the, hopefully, resultant foal. If European, or indeed any other, stallion owners are not prepared to supply this, then they should not be offering their stallions at stud. As I see it, failure to do this would be in breach of contract and any stud fees paid, should be returned to the mare owner.


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## markvannunen (26 June 2010)

Ciss said:



			Not any more they're not, hence the problem the OP encountered. You could find yourself with siome pretty fed up Uk clients if you continue to do that in the future I'm afraid.
		
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You misunderstand me. We never ship without a certificat. But... when a UK clients orders the semen to late, we tell him that we can't ship it because there is no time to get the paperwork done. Several cliënts choose then to receive the semen without the paperwork. And their vet's inseminate it.

The health papers, it's a good name, papers. because that's what they are. It's just paperwork. No state veterinarian runs a check on the semen self.
If, for example, a stallion get's EVA and nobody know's he is infected the semen will be send like all other semen. With healthpapers...


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## Meg2 (26 June 2010)

So if that is the case I dont understand why the papers cant be sent before the semen is oredered or else faxed?


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## markvannunen (26 June 2010)

Meg2 said:



			So if that is the case I dont understand why the papers cant be sent before the semen is oredered or else faxed?
		
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Because the paperwork should come with the semen and you can't make papers without semen. But we can send the paperwork a day or two later if the vet asks us.


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## Alec Swan (27 June 2010)

markvannunen,

so let me get this straight.  If you ship semen over here,  and because there is no relevant documentation,  and the vet refuses to use it,  are you suggesting that the vet will accept the answer,  "Oh,  don't worry,  the paper work will be here in a day or two"?

If I paid for semen to be shipped over here from the Continent,  and my vet refused to use it because there was no relevant documentation with it,  then I can assure you that I wouldn't be seeing the funny side of it.

Alec.


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## chrissie1 (28 June 2010)

But presumably to make papers at a later stage you need some semen retaining, and that is then kept back from the collection in case papers are needed?  So why not do the paerwork at the time, or have I missed something here?


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## winchester (28 June 2010)

I am now also being advised that i need to order at least 48 hours before...  to arrange for the Gov Vet to come...

I thought the vet could only advise you when to order 24hours prior - according to the size of the follicle?


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## Faberge (28 June 2010)

I had this problem this year with getting chilled semen from Holland. Stud was advised at 11am on Tuesday that mare would need to be inseminated at midday on Thursday (in the UK) but their stud vet had already left earlier on the Tuesday morning and they weren't getting another vet out until Friday, so could not get any semen sent with papers until Friday. The Dutch stud said they would ship the semen on Wed for Thurs arrival but neither the stud nor the vet at this end (quite understandably) were prepared to inseminate using semen that came with no papers. So we have had to give up for the year, very frustrating.


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## markvannunen (28 June 2010)

chrissie1 said:



			But presumably to make papers at a later stage you need some semen retaining, and that is then kept back from the collection in case papers are needed?  So why not do the paerwork at the time, or have I missed something here?
		
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You don't need to retain semen. It's paperwork. The vet doesn't see the semen, neither does he check it. He just makes papers. We can't do paperwork at the time because we have to order the vet 48 hours prior to shipping. But you as mare owner can't order semen 48 before shipping because 48 hours before you don't know if you can inseminate the mare when the semen arrives. That's where the problem is.


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## markvannunen (28 June 2010)

a1b2c3 said:



			markvannunen,

so let me get this straight.  If you ship semen over here,  and because there is no relevant documentation,  and the vet refuses to use it,  are you suggesting that the vet will accept the answer,  "Oh,  don't worry,  the paper work will be here in a day or two"?

If I paid for semen to be shipped over here from the Continent,  and my vet refused to use it because there was no relevant documentation with it,  then I can assure you that I wouldn't be seeing the funny side of it.

Alec.
		
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In the past there were situations where semen was ordered but to late to order the vet. Several UK vet's have said to send out the semen anyway and send the paperwork when ready. They just need it to keep in their administration.

Horse healthcare is totally different in Holland. Every stallion in Holland who's semen can be send form an EU station must be tested. Otherwise it can't be shipped in the first please.

Stallions are so isolated that we even don't even need to swap the mare, something that's very common and neccesary in the UK.

But....semen without a certificat should be a mare owner's choice. Not from the AI center who sends it.


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## Marchell (29 June 2010)

markvannunen

I think you may be missing the point! 

Health Papers are just that - certifying the stallion is healthy and whereas previously copies of a health declaration could be sent with the semen, UK law now requires that original papers must accompany the semen. This means that the stallion in question needs examination by  a vet before the semen is collected, to prove his health on THAT day - which is obvious I would have thought? 

Obviously this means that the stallion owner / agent needs notification as soon as is possible (we have ordered EU semen at 8am UK time this morning, having been advised that we needed to order before 8.30am to allow time for the vet to make his exam) . I can see that if your vet requires 48 hours notice of a visit then it will NEVER work but the stud we have used has a vet on site until 9.30am EU time so this allows time.

The UK has previously been lacking as regards imported animal health but has now quite rightly caught up and the rules are much more stringent.


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## winchester (29 June 2010)

Thank you so much for all of you help/replies/support on this matter!!!

Im glad its not just me who sees this as a no win situation!!

As the German stud is saying if i want health papers i have to order 48hours prior - but even then they cant guarantee the necessary paperwork -as they say they can just get the vet in the following day and send through after (IT DOES NOT WORK LIKE THAT!!)


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## jaypeebee (29 June 2010)

What a crazy situation.  Checking breeding contracts thoroughly before paying to use these stallions seems to be the only way to ensure mare owners get what they want at the time they need it.  All stallions I use have delivery within 24 hours providing we contact stud prior to 9am their time the day before.  All semen comes with the correct paperwork and is used the following morning to inseminate the mare.  Even though I understand what Mark is saying and I see the problems he has with his vet needing 48 hours notice, I am sorry but I could never agree to a contract such as this.  Perhaps some of these EU stallion owners need to get with the programme and rectify this ludicrous situation if they want to continue to supply British mare owners with their semen.  I would not allow semen arriving without papers to be inseminated into any of my mares.  Not because I would fear from any health issues being transferred but because I have no guarantee that the semen has come from that particular stallion.  I want paperwork so that any discrepancies can be shown in black and white should a problem arise.


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## markvannunen (29 June 2010)

Marchell said:



			markvannunen

I think you may be missing the point! 

Health Papers are just that - certifying the stallion is healthy and whereas previously copies of a health declaration could be sent with the semen, UK law now requires that original papers must accompany the semen. This means that the stallion in question needs examination by  a vet before the semen is collected, to prove his health on THAT day - which is obvious I would have thought? 

Obviously this means that the stallion owner / agent needs notification as soon as is possible (we have ordered EU semen at 8am UK time this morning, having been advised that we needed to order before 8.30am to allow time for the vet to make his exam) . I can see that if your vet requires 48 hours notice of a visit then it will NEVER work but the stud we have used has a vet on site until 9.30am EU time so this allows time.

The UK has previously been lacking as regards imported animal health but has now quite rightly caught up and the rules are much more stringent.
		
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I'm not missing the point. It's not my vet who I have to order 48 hours before but it's the vet from the PVE which is the government veterinarian. And if you think the stallion is checked for his health that day then it's clearly not me missing the point;-) CEM and EVA is only to find out with bloodsamples. Not by a visual inspection. That's why we quarantain stallions and keep them seperated from mares.


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## markvannunen (29 June 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			What a crazy situation.  Checking breeding contracts thoroughly before paying to use these stallions seems to be the only way to ensure mare owners get what they want at the time they need it.  All stallions I use have delivery within 24 hours providing we contact stud prior to 9am their time the day before.  All semen comes with the correct paperwork and is used the following morning to inseminate the mare.  Even though I understand what Mark is saying and I see the problems he has with his vet needing 48 hours notice, I am sorry but I could never agree to a contract such as this.  Perhaps some of these EU stallion owners need to get with the programme and rectify this ludicrous situation if they want to continue to supply British mare owners with their semen.  I would not allow semen arriving without papers to be inseminated into any of my mares.  Not because I would fear from any health issues being transferred but because I have no guarantee that the semen has come from that particular stallion.  I want paperwork so that any discrepancies can be shown in black and white should a problem arise.
		
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The veterinarian is not at the stud during collecting so how would he know if it's the right semen other then the label on it?


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## jaypeebee (29 June 2010)

markvannunen said:



			The veterinarian is not at the stud during collecting so how would he know if it's the right semen other then the label on it?
		
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That is irrelevant.  I want paperwork sent with the semen on the day the semen is sent complete with Gov vet stamp.  Then if the semen is from the wrong stallion I have comeback as all paperwork has been received at the time.  Should a mistake be made and I challenge this it is no good trying to fight my case with paperwork which arrived days after insemination.


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## markvannunen (29 June 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			That is irrelevant.  I want paperwork sent with the semen on the day the semen is sent complete with Gov vet stamp.  Then if the semen is from the wrong stallion I have comeback as all paperwork has been received at the time.  Should a mistake be made and I challenge this it is no good trying to fight my case with paperwork which arrived days after insemination.
		
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But you have payed an invoice with the name of the stallion on it so you always have the proof that you ordered that stallion.

But having the paperwork with the semen is very easy, just order 48 hours before. Then you are always sure you have the paperwork done. 
2 yrs ago it was 24 hours prior to shipping, that worked much better.


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## jaypeebee (29 June 2010)

markvannunen said:



			But you have payed an invoice with the name of the stallion on it so you always have the proof that you ordered that stallion.
		
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Yes mare owners do have that to fall back on should any mistakes be made but to accept insemination of our mares with semen arriving without documentation could show non-concern and could be an negative point for the mare owner.




			But having the paperwork with the semen is very easy, just order 48 hours before. Then you are always sure you have the paperwork done. 
2 yrs ago it was 24 hours prior to shipping, that worked much better.
		
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Yes ordering 24 hours prior is the way to go.  I dont know about anyone elses mares but when I am trying to breed my mares early in the season there is no telling what these girls will do and even this year with a good tracking method in place for my mares many of them have not copied from their prior heats so if I had to order 48 hours in advance it would have proven fruitless and added costs on a number of occasions this year.


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## shirleyno2 (29 June 2010)

There is an easy way around this problem.




Use a british based stallion!!


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## Marchell (29 June 2010)

markvannunen said:



			I'm not missing the point. It's not my vet who I have to order 48 hours before but it's the vet from the PVE which is the government veterinarian. And if you think the stallion is checked for his health that day then it's clearly not me missing the point;-) CEM and EVA is only to find out with bloodsamples. Not by a visual inspection. That's why we quarantain stallions and keep them seperated from mares.
		
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I am well aware that EVA and CEM are confirmed by bloodsample analysis - taking of a blood sample is classed an an examination in this Country.

I would refer you to this link http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/diseases/atoz/eva/preventing.htm

and a recent communication received to us as an AI Centre

 Dear Sir/Madam 


It has come to our attention that there have been a number of consignments of equine semen, imported from other member states, that have not been accompanied by an original health certificate. This letter sets out the actions to be taken if such an import is discovered. 


The intra-community trade in equine semen is governed by Commission Decision 95/307EC. It provides a specimen health certificate and the conditions that apply for this trade. The certificate clearly states, Competent authority notes (b) the original of this certificate must accompany the consignment to the place of destination. 


In addition Directive 90/425/EEC Article 3.1 (d) states be accompanied by heath certificates as provided for in the Directives ...  


If the semen arrives without an original certificate it must be considered as non compliant and must not be used. The local Animal Health office must be notified. The importer is responsible for arranging with the relevant authority for the consignment to be re-exported. 


We will follow up these reports with the authorities in the countries concerned and if necessary with the Commission in order to achieve compliance across the community. 


Thank you for your support in this matter.



Mrs L Simpson

Animal Health Imports Team


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## markvannunen (30 June 2010)

So what's your point!?


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## AndyPandy (30 June 2010)

markvannunen said:



			And if you think the stallion is checked for his health that day then it's clearly not me missing the point;-) CEM and EVA is only to find out with bloodsamples.
		
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Just for the sake of clarity; while EVA is usually tested for via a blood test (or semen virus isolation test in the case of EVA-seropositive stallions), you cannot test stallions for CEM with a blood test... the penis and pre-ejaculate must be swabbed and cultured in order to test for the CEM organism - Taylorella Equigenitalis. 

This is because stallions do not produce anitbodies agains the CEMO, as they are only carriers - not technically "infected". Mares can be blood tested as they can become infected, and so a positive result can be seen using a complement-fixation blood test.

The veterinary check on the day is supposed to confirm that the stallion is showing no external signs of infectious disease, as pathogens other than EVA, EIA and CEM (the "controlled venereal diseases") can be transmitted in the semen. As export centres are under the supervision of a centre vet, and must abide by quarantine rules, the vet expects that the animals are free of EVA, EIA and CEM.


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## markvannunen (30 June 2010)

Thank you for correcting my little mistake.

Not all centers have a centre vet and if they do he is not for collecting the stallions but for scanning mares.The state veterinarian never inspects the stallions themselve, he only checks if they are following the protocol with the stallions.


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## AndyPandy (30 June 2010)

markvannunen said:



			Thank you for correcting my little mistake.

Not all centers have a centre vet and if they do he is not for collecting the stallions but for scanning mares.The state veterinarian never inspects the stallions themselve, he only checks if they are following the protocol with the stallions.
		
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Hi Mark - no problem - it was not a personal dig, incase it came across that way - just making sure forum readers were aware and did not get confused.

WRT centre vets - the EU directive for the export of semen to other member states requires that centres have a "nominated vet" who is responsible for the running of the centre. The problem is, I think, that this is often not financially or practically possible... it varies all around the EU as far as I am aware - everyone seems to have a slightly different system!


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## markvannunen (30 June 2010)

I wasn't feeling offended

In Holland every larger AI center has a vet coming out every morning to scan the mares because only a vet is allowed to do that.

I never heared a vet most be on the facility for the stallions so it might be different in Holland. Don't know the UK system.


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## Marchell (30 June 2010)

markvannunen said:



			So what's your point!?
		
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My point is that we have to abide by UK Animal Health Requirements and that dictates that Health Papers must accompany the semen - not two days later as you seem to have indicated in your previous posts, or has something been lost in translation?

 I realise that there are hurdles to overcome ,but likewise we have obligations to our clients at our end.


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## wonder (30 June 2010)

I have just received this morning a letter obviously gone out to AI Technicians and possibly studs reminding them not to inseminate semen from abroad without relevant paperwork.


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## winchester (1 July 2010)

wonder said:



			I have just received this morning a letter obviously gone out to AI Technicians and possibly studs reminding them not to inseminate semen from abroad without relevant paperwork.
		
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Was this letter from Defra?

As this is new to me - would be vet be able to give 48hours notice to the Stud? (in Germany)  We tried pg'ing her last time at for her was not a very reliable method...


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## LynneB (1 July 2010)

shirleyno2 said:



			There is an easy way around this problem.




Use a british based stallion!!
		
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absolutely!


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## Marchell (1 July 2010)

winchester said:



			Was this letter from Defra?

As this is new to me - would be vet be able to give 48hours notice to the Stud? (in Germany)  We tried pg'ing her last time at for her was not a very reliable method...
		
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Our letter (and email) was rom DEFRA (copy in my post above)

Pg'ing is the most reliable method for AI work as you have a window to work through.It all depends on your vets ability and of course the mare. You MUST scan before PG'ing though otherwise you may well mess up her cycle.


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## markvannunen (4 July 2010)

Today, the Dutch Health Government announced a new procedure for shipping semen to another country.  It's called the TRACES form. There will be no veterinarian at the station. The station fills in a online form and the state veterinarian will sign online also. Then it can be printed and send together with the semen. Don't know exactly about the time for ordering them but I assume it can be on the same day as shipping!


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## flyingcolors (4 July 2010)

Yes traces is instant but the vet still needs to come out to see that the shipment is sealed and closed to not "attract" something on the trip. 

Mark vN is totally right, if UK or Ireland wants semen from the continent and if it must directly be accompanied with health papers, then the stud needs to be advised 48 hours up front as NO government vet is sitting there in their office just waiting for a stud to call him out that very same day to do papers for a semen shipment to UK. They all demand 48 hours up front appointment.

The stallions that are at an EU station are swabbed for CEM, blood tested for EIA and EVA and then after 1 month of quarantine get their EU CLEAR health certificate. All of these stallions remain in quarantine during the season and are not allowed to live cover so there is no risk they attract something in between. The gov vet is just coming to look at the package and do the paperwork to attest that the stallion has EU status and is free of this and that. Then you pay between 30-70 Euro for this short service which the mare owner has to cover then.

It would be much easier if UK would accept direct shipping and once the semen has arrived to check with traces as in Germany we are doing all via traces but if papers have to be completed to accompany the shipment, that has to be done by the gov vet itself, the stud cannot complete paperwork au lieu of the vet.

As long as UK is that complicated with paperwork there will be need of 48 hours up front order from UK.


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## stolensilver (4 July 2010)

What a shedload of nonsense this is! I think some of us should e-mail the UK Government and highlight it as a ridiculous law that should be lifted. 

The paperwork is effectively meaningless. From what people have posted on here EU stallions are health checked and kept in quarantine before the breeding season starts. If they are clear they can start breeding but only via AI so they do not come into contact with any sources of infection. 

The paperwork has to be filled out by a Government vet (why? WHY? WHY?) who demands 48 hours notice for an appointment. He doesn't inspect the stallion, he simply does the paperwork. 

So the UK is reliant on the testing and quarantine period at the start of the breeding season to keep the UK clear of EIA and EVA and CEM. The paperwork offers no added benefit to preventing the spread of these diseases. It possibly offers good employment to Government vets. 

The paperwork is not a guarantee that the semen is from the stallion whose name is on the label because it has been filled out by a vet who was not present when the semen was collected.

What a ridiculous state of affairs! Why do we allow ourselves to get into such a tangle of red tape in the UK? Its so easily avoidable (allow the stallion owner to fill in the paperwork or, if there is insistence that a Government vet does it allow the paperwork to follow the semen) but what's the betting the rules will be changed so they are workable? Slim to none. Sigh.


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## Alec Swan (4 July 2010)

stolenstilver,

welcome to the wisdom of EU livestock directives.  Try farming livestock,  see how you get on with that!

Alec.


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## stolensilver (4 July 2010)

Alec that's a very generous offer but I don't think my sanity would stand it. 

Being slightly more serious there is a campaign at the moment, run by the Government, for people to highlight stupid laws so that they can be removed from the statute books. This one looks a perfect candidate! As do the rules that make it virtually impossible to legally drive your own horsebox if you work full time.


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## Alec Swan (4 July 2010)

S-S,

the campaign by Government was an exercise in "election promises",  aided by a fair degree of B-S,  but this is now starting to wander off topic.

If the major problem is the 48 hr notice,  when as others have said,  semen is so often needed within a 24 hr order window,  do you not think that the Continental studs made representations,  and demonstrated that the condition was unworkable?  I realise that the UK is not a major market for them,  but sales are sales.  Were they listened too?

I'd be surprised to hear that the French (a rebellious lot) bother with the conditions!

Perhaps Shirleyno2 and LynneB,  had a point.  Use British Stallions!!

Alec.


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## flyingcolors (4 July 2010)

I think it is even more ridiculous as in UK you do live cover AND AI a the same time and normally that is not allowed at all as per EU law. A stallion is only allowed to do either of the two but not both but its practiced in UK and even promoted on stud farm websites as such. Then exactly that one country demands the paperwork to come with the shipment which is not possible if the stud farm here wants to help get the mare owners mares in foal in due time. This is pathetic and almost blasphemy I would say!


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## firm (4 July 2010)

FC there is so much I could write to put your mind at rest but if you check out our rules, you will see that a stallion being collected for EU chilled semen, cannot do live cover once he has done his health checks for exporting chilled semen to EU.   That is why many UK or Irish stallions are not available. Also UK stallions owner who do both, would ask for mares to be checked for EVA and CEM etc because if a UK stallion has EVA, he is PTS or gelded according to Defra website  which does not seem to be the case in Germany, Holland etc?  

The UK does not have the diseases that Mainland Europe have because we are lucky enough to be an island and these rules are to protect the TB industry & many M&M stallion etc which is much larger than the Sporthorse Industry.


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## shirleyno2 (4 July 2010)

flyingcolors said:



			I think it is even more ridiculous as in UK you do live cover AND AI a the same time and normally that is not allowed at all as per EU law. A stallion is only allowed to do either of the two but not both but its practiced in UK and even promoted on stud farm websites as such. Then exactly that one country demands the paperwork to come with the shipment which is not possible if the stud farm here wants to help get the mare owners mares in foal in due time. This is pathetic and almost blasphemy I would say!
		
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Mine are UK based and ONLY do AI!! Live cover?No thankyou!


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## firm (4 July 2010)

Flying Colours - what do you do with your TB stallions then?   Can you not cover TB mares with them - although I am sure I saw a TB by one of yours where the mare was sent to Germany to be covered. Was it Electrum on here, her mare?


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## markvannunen (4 July 2010)

firm said:



			FC there is so much I could write to put your mind at rest but if you check out our rules, you will see that a stallion being collected for EU chilled semen, cannot do live cover once he has done his health checks for exporting chilled semen to EU.   That is why many UK or Irish stallions are not available. Also UK stallions owner who do both, would ask for mares to be checked for EVA and CEM etc because if a UK stallion has EVA, he is PTS or gelded according to Defra website  which does not seem to be the case in Germany, Holland etc?
		
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No, they will not be gelded. Florencio is a good example.



firm said:



			The UK does not have the diseases that Mainland Europe have because we are lucky enough to be an island and these rules are to protect the TB industry & many M&M stallion etc which is much larger than the Sporthorse Industry.
		
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Lucky enough to have not diseases Mainland Europe have!?

I can remember a couple of yrs ago that we got mad cow disease. FROM THE UK! 65.000 catle from the UK, imported in Holland, were killed and burned in Holland to prevent spreading the disease. But how did the cows in the UK get infected? Because of wrong deinfection systems from British slaughters! To get the cows grow as fast as possible, endosperm and slaughter remains of sick sheep came in to the foodchain of the cows and that's how the disease developed.

I'm very curious which disease we have that the UK doesn't have.


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## markvannunen (4 July 2010)

flyingcolors said:



			Yes traces is instant but the vet still needs to come out to see that the shipment is sealed and closed to not "attract" something on the trip.
		
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In the press release it was made very clear that there will be NO vet at the station. Also not to check the sealing of the shipment.


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## flyingcolors (4 July 2010)

Mark, 
but the UK DEMANDS a health certificate to ACCOMPANY the shipment and for this the traces cannot be used. The traces can be used only online so the vets in UK can download it from the computer but some seem not to understand that system. They want the paper to accompany the shipment and traces cannot be downloaded by the stud farm, only from the vet and signed by the vet. I just went through this ordeal with Chess.

Firm,
the EU rule demands that ALL stallions in the EU if they do AI or live cover either in their homeland only or in the EU are required to only do ONE of the two, AI or live cover, both even in your own country only IS NOT ALLOWED as per EU rules, but in UK nobody seems to bother to fulfill this rule!

My TB stallions therefore do only live cover so far. Once one of my TB stallions has fulfilled the stallion performance test he will do live cover until April and then after that enter the quarantine for AI services. That is possible, but both at the same time is forbidden as per EU rules. Truly sent her mares to Germany to be bred live cover as TBs do only get papers if bred live cover. So we have to do live cover with the TBs and if they do live cover they are not allowed to do AI. Thats is!

I also highly doubt that Uk does not have some of the deseases we have I remember there were even EIA cases.


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## markvannunen (4 July 2010)

flyingcolors said:



			Mark, 
but the UK DEMANDS a health certificate to ACCOMPANY the shipment and for this the traces cannot be used. The traces can be used only online so the vets in UK can download it from the computer but some seem not to understand that system. They want the paper to accompany the shipment and traces cannot be downloaded by the stud farm, only from the vet and signed by the vet. I just went through this ordeal with Chess.
		
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Gwen, for what I understand the online signed form can be printed of and then accomplished with the shipment. But I will spend a phonecall on it tommorow.


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## Clepottage (4 July 2010)

All extremely interesting, thanks all, it's been a LONG time since I imported any semen!

However, I'm with Shirley and LynneB on this one. I'm a big fan of the WB breeds, but we now have so many very good WB stallions in this country, I find it hard to believe anyone struggles to find a stallion who would not be an excellent cross to their individual mare standing in the UK. There are very few bloodlines that cannot be sourced in the UK these days either.


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## stolensilver (4 July 2010)

Mark the UK is currently CEA and EVA free which could explain why some UK stallions are available natural cover and AI at the same time. If they are covering UK mares who have been blood tested and swabbed clear of those diseases then the stallion who has also been blood tested and swabbed as being clear of those diseases, should not pick them up or pass them on. 

As I made clear earlier in this thread I think the current legislation is ludicrous and unworkable. I am wondering if the rules are being followed more strictly in Holland than in Germany as I've heard a few people say they've had trouble getting chilled semen from Holland whereas there doesn't seem to be any problem in Germany, even at short notice.


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## stolensilver (4 July 2010)

Clepottage I'm sorry to say I don't agree. Because the UK has so many different studbooks if you want to get pink papers for your foal your choice is very limited indeed if you stick to UK stallions. My mare is graded with the SHB(GB) and there are a total of 24 dressage stallions approved with that studbook and less than a dozen that have either trained to Grand Prix or produced Grand Prix offspring. If you then want a GP dressage stallion that is line bred the choice drops to zero. Since any foreign WBFSH approved stallion can give a foal full papers with the SHB(GB) you have to look abroad to find the stallion that ticks all your boxes.

I'm not knocking the quality of stallions that are available in the UK at all, there are some world class athletes that are based here. But if you want something very specific you have to go abroad to get it.


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## markvannunen (4 July 2010)

stolensilver said:



			I am wondering if the rules are being followed more strictly in Holland than in Germany as I've heard a few people say they've had trouble getting chilled semen from Holland whereas there doesn't seem to be any problem in Germany, even at short notice.
		
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I'm not sure how it works in Germany but the 48 hours was a Dutch rule and not an UK one. The rule was made because of planning the veterinarian issues and not a health issue.


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## firm (4 July 2010)

FC thanks for the explaination re TBs    UK did have EIA but it was infected horses imported from Romania  via Itay via France and I think Ireland got EIA from plasma from Italy? and it is something UK is keen to keep out.

MVN from this thread, I thought you knew about equine semen export to the UK so am surprised you have to ask what Equine reproduction related diseases the UK does not have.  You do seem well versed in cattle disease however I think some UK cattle people might disagree with your version  The interesting point of course is that our catte exports were banned whilst equine semen and horses can still be imported from EU countries that have the diseases we do not, because of EU rules apparently.


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## flyingcolors (5 July 2010)

stolensilver,
no matter if UK is free of this or that, the EU rules apply to every country that is a member of the EU, so also UK, but nobody seems to take care of it in your country.

mark,
the vets can download the traces forms but not the stud farms, that would be illegal. So still a vet has to put its stamp on the papers and come out to the stud to bring them forward as some UK vets demand the papers to accompany the shipment, some smart dont and are happy to download the traces themselves. But last we fell on a stubborn vet with which I personally talked, but he would rather not inseminate the mare and the mare owner was the unlucky person that had a mare not inseminated.

As for the 48 hours rule it is like Mark said, not a health issue rule but an appointment rule for the gov vets as they cannot sit and wait they are called out for a shipment.

BTW we just had a shipment to UK and there was a hold up of the semen as every number ... shipment of TNT is scanned/x-rayed for security reason. The semen arrived one day later, the mare was still ok to inseminate and the semen was still about 50% motility at that time. So fingers crossed.

The Chess semen has been proven of excellent quality it arrives the next day at 85% motility and the day after still has 50% motility.

Traces can only be downloaded by vets so the UK vets should agree to go via this as the semen is no different if the papers are accompanying the shipment or not. The main thing is that the stallion has an EU allowance and is free of all health defects named in there and this is done at the beginning of the season and not at each shipment otherwise the stallion owners would be very poor as it is about 500 Euro for all the swabs quarantine on top.

firm,
I know it came from other horses but nevertheless I think horses that come into a country should be more checked and there should be more fuzz about them being healthy than make a big deal of health papers accompanying a shipment from here when the stallion has been cleared for the EU countries already. Traces would be a good way to go, hopefully the British Vets are not too much from yesterday and go that way soon too to avoid their clients to lose a pregnancy due to such difficulties.


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## markvannunen (5 July 2010)

I have the official answer from the Dutch government.
I will put the headlines of it here.

On the day of shipping the EU approved AI center fills in an online form. We call this the TRACES 1 form. A copy of this form is printed and goes together with the semen. The semen will be sealed by the station.
The next day ( day of arrival ) the gov will send a certificat to the Dutch AI center and to DEFRA. If the semen is send to an EU station in the UK the gov will also send a certificat to that station.

If the receiver is not an EU station the AI center in Holland can send the certificat to the receiver ( = mare owner ) but not necessary.



Above is in short how it works. Conclusion is: if there is a TRACES 1 form with the semen, there is also a health certificat at the DEFRA office. So there would be no hesitation for a vet to inseminate because he will not receive the healthcertificat anyway unless he is an EU approved station. 

I do have the whole procedure in writing but, offcourse, in Dutch.


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## flyingcolors (5 July 2010)

Well Mark, we offered the traces to the UK vet but he refused to inseminate the mare anyway as the health papers must accompany the shipment there was no way to make him inseminate the mare. 

And unfortunately in Germany only the gov vets are allowed to use traces, it is password safe and only they can open it, so does not work for the stud owners here. All other vets in UK were fine with this but not this one. So what can you do then, you can only see the semen of your stallion go under and the mare owner in tears due to a non co operative vet.


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## markvannunen (5 July 2010)

flyingcolors said:



			Well Mark, we offered the traces to the UK vet but he refused to inseminate the mare anyway as the health papers must accompany the shipment there was no way to make him inseminate the mare. 

And unfortunately in Germany only the gov vets are allowed to use traces, it is password safe and only they can open it, so does not work for the stud owners here. All other vets in UK were fine with this but not this one. So what can you do then, you can only see the semen of your stallion go under and the mare owner in tears due to a non co operative vet.
		
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So, the problem is not the system. The problem is the vet. Defra knows the system but apperently he's not informed.


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## flyingcolors (6 July 2010)

That is what I said to the client too. We offered the traces and I spoke to the vets there myself but no way, they refused to inseminate the mare as the health papers were not with the shipment and we had done all to help the mare owner to get the shipment within 24 hours. I told the client to get another vet as that was the first time we encountered such a problem.


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## winchester (6 July 2010)

markvannunen said:



			On the day of shipping the EU approved AI center fills in an online form. We call this the TRACES 1 form. A copy of this form is printed and goes together with the semen. The semen will be sealed by the station.
		
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But no paperwork arrived with the semen - hence why he would not inseminate....


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## markvannunen (6 July 2010)

flyingcolors said:



			That is what I said to the client too. We offered the traces and I spoke to the vets there myself but no way, they refused to inseminate the mare as the health papers were not with the shipment and we had done all to help the mare owner to get the shipment within 24 hours. I told the client to get another vet as that was the first time we encountered such a problem.
		
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That's what I have said in the beginning. Most UK vet's inseminate, also without healthpapers.

But if your situation happened in Holland, the Dutch AI center can email the healthcertificat directly to the mare owner.


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## ColourFan (6 July 2010)

There is no problem with semen arriving without paperwork in France or Belgium IF it is sent from an EU AI center. 
I ordered semen 48 hours in advance, it arrived very early on the 2nd day, with no papers.  My vet did question this, but I informed him of the AI center's name and his reply was 'no problem, wellknown'.   Mare was inseminated (she had ovulated that morning) and this morning the scan confirmed she's pregnant.

I did query my vet about the 'health papers' and his reply was that anything coming from an EU approved AI center was not 'suspect' but anything coming from either the U.K. or U.S.A. MUST have full paperwork or he would think twice about inseminating an healthy mare!   The reason =  the english and american are reknown for not following EU guidelines with respect to breeding procedures, especially with respect to AI regulations (stallion quarantine).


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## Faberge (6 July 2010)

I have had confirmation from two UK vets this season that they will not inseminate under any circumstances if the original health papers do not accompany the semen. 

If I have this right: In Holland the government vet is the only one who can make up and sign the health papers needed for semen imports to the UK. He needs to be ordered by the Dutch stud 48 hours ahead of the appointment. When the vet comes, he glances at the stallion then signs the papers. The papers are then valid for ten days. So the semen might be needed a week later, and can be sent with that paperwork. Hence the semen/semen container is often never even seen by the goverment vet, so I don't see how they can confirm that it has not been tampered with. 

I am all for keeping diseases out of the UK but this method does not seem constructive or helpful in aiding this!


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## markvannunen (6 July 2010)

Faberge: Just read back. That system doesn't exist anymore. You can order now the day before. The Traces 1 form that comes with the semen has all the information your vet needs. There will be NO vet at the Dutch AI centers anymore to inspect the semen or stallion. Defra knows and accepts this system and online healthcertificat. If your vet is also an EU station he will receive a healthcertificat also if he has a TRACES account. 

If your vet is not an EU station, the Dutch AI center can email you the healthcertificat. And once again, it's not "live" signed.


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## Faberge (7 July 2010)

To clarify:

I have just had a long chat with DEFRA. They DO still require original health papers to be sent with all consignments of semen - it is one of the conditions for legal import. Semen is considered an illegal / non compliant import if it arrives without original health papers.

A separate certificate must be done for each consignment of semen and it must accompany the semen. 

It is EU law / legistalion and DEFRA can't commemnt on the practice of other countries. They follow the law as they see it. 

DEFRA know nothing about any change to this system. They are not accepting the traces form online alone. 

The government vet who signs the papers is considered a guarantee of the stallion's health status based on the vet's knowledge of recent disease outbreaks and surveillance of the premises. 

I had some other questions which they couldn't answer straight away, so they are calling me back.


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## stolensilver (7 July 2010)

Thanks to Mark and Faberge for trying to sort out this red tape. 

From the link someone posted earlier to BEVA stating that UK vets are aware it is a problem and are working with DEFRA to find a solution (my comment is work harder!!!) I think its safe to assume that the unworkable 48 hour rule is still in place for the UK.


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## markvannunen (8 July 2010)

Just contacted the government again. 

They are aware of the stiff headed attitude from DEFRA. Because of that they have to fo to Brussel and put it there. Then DEFRA have to accept it also.

So, untill that time you have 2 options: order 48 hour before and hope you receive the semen at the right time for insemination or find an edjucated vet that understands that stallions from an EU station are checked and healthy.


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## Ciss (8 July 2010)

Faberge said:



			To clarify:

I have just had a long chat with DEFRA. They DO still require original health papers to be sent with all consignments of semen - it is one of the conditions for legal import. Semen is considered an illegal / non compliant import if it arrives without original health papers.

A separate certificate must be done for each consignment of semen and it must accompany the semen. 

It is EU law / legistalion and DEFRA can't commemnt on the practice of other countries. They follow the law as they see it.
		
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Also confirmed to me yesterday by the key person in BEVA responsible for the regualtions in this area.




			DEFRA know nothing about any change to this system. They are not accepting the traces form online alone. 

The government vet who signs the papers is considered a guarantee of the stallion's health status based on the vet's knowledge of recent disease outbreaks and surveillance of the premises. 

I had some other questions which they couldn't answer straight away, so they are calling me back.
		
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This person also pointed out that German stud and vets have been working with TRACES for quite a while very successfully and that The Netherlands has only just joined up -- hence the problems. 

So my thoughts are that it is the Dutch breeders that need to put influence on their (govt) vets to help them comply with in the 24 hour time scale (lile the Germans do) not change the rules becuase they cannot adapt to an already proven and successful system in use in sveral EU countries already.


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## Alec Swan (8 July 2010)

markvannunen said:



			Just contacted the government again. 

They are aware of the stiff headed attitude from DEFRA. Because of that they have to fo to Brussel and put it there. Then DEFRA have to accept it also.

So, untill that time you have 2 options: order 48 hour before and hope you receive the semen at the right time for insemination or find an edjucated vet that understands that stallions from an EU station are checked and healthy.
		
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Actually,  there's a third option.  Don't buy semen from those countries which find themselves unable to comply with EU rules.  Simple,  isn't it?

Alec.


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## markvannunen (8 July 2010)

a1b2c3 said:



			Actually,  there's a third option.  Don't buy semen from those countries which find themselves unable to comply with EU rules.  Simple,  isn't it?

Alec.
		
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Fine with me to. But there is a reason why British breeders use stallions from abroad...


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## Alec Swan (8 July 2010)

Mark,

read my post again.  I said "those countries".  

I have no problem with imported semen,  but I most certainly do have a problem with the Continental studs,  who supply semen into the UK,  without the correct documentation,  and then when the UK vet,  who has both his licence and reputation to consider,  refuses to use that semen,  and then when the client (that's the UK mare owner,  by the way),  remonstrates with the supplier of the semen,  and is told that the UK vet is at fault.

Yes,  THAT,  I have a problem with.  

It's late in the breeding season now,  but for those UK mare owners who are planning for next year,  I would strongly suggest that you do your research, FIRST!

Alec.


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## eventrider23 (8 July 2010)

Totally agree with you Alec!


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## markvannunen (8 July 2010)

You can also take the option to use frozen semen but I understand the UK vet's are writing their bills with a fork.


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## Capriole (8 July 2010)

markvannunen said:



			but I understand the UK vet's are writing their bills with a fork.
		
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im sorry i dont understand what that means?


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## markvannunen (8 July 2010)

Sorcerers Apprentice said:



			im sorry i dont understand what that means?
		
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It's a Dutch expression when someone write very high bills. Because a fork has 4 points we say he is writing his bill with a fork. 4 times the price


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## Marchell (8 July 2010)

markvannunen said:



			Just contacted the government again. 

They are aware of the stiff headed attitude from DEFRA. Because of that they have to fo to Brussel and put it there. Then DEFRA have to accept it also.

So, untill that time you have 2 options: order 48 hour before and hope you receive the semen at the right time for insemination or find an edjucated vet that understands that stallions from an EU station are checked and healthy.
		
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Sorry, but I find those last few words very insulting to the UK veterinary service.


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## markvannunen (8 July 2010)

I see and understand your point. From my point of view UK vet's are not bad but I have the feeling that - especially - in breeding they are 10 yrs behind us. I know UK  reproduction vet's that just started to use the scan for an echo. Just!

I would strongly recommend an EU center for breeding instead of the local vet.


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## sywell (9 July 2010)

Studs in Germany want to know about the semen request before 0900 hrs EU time so they can get the paperwork done and I collect at 0730 next morning from my local DHL depot it makes it difficult to give my local DEFRA office 24hrs notice of a semen import for their TRACES system


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## markvannunen (9 July 2010)

sywell said:



			Studs in Germany want to know about the semen request before 0900 hrs EU time so they can get the paperwork done and I collect at 0730 next morning from my local DHL depot it makes it difficult to give my local DEFRA office 24hrs notice of a semen import for their TRACES system
		
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The Dutch Traces 1 form is infact a healthpaper

-It reports that all the stallions on the stations  at least 30 days before collecting the semen are being tested free of EVA and CEM.

-That on the day of collecting the is free of any clinical symptoms for a disease.

-Data and results of the last test for EVA, CEM or IA. The original results of the test must be at the AI center.

- The number of the sealing of the shipment must be on it.


In this system DEFRA has an easy going because the health certificat is online available for them.

If Germany and Holland are allready working with this system ( not only to the UK ) and it functions, what is the point for DEFRA to reject it?

Now don't claim a vet needs to see the stallion IRL because that also isn't happening in the old system.


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## flyingcolors (9 July 2010)

The problem ARE some UK vets and as some have pointed out DEFRA too do NOT take the traces as they INSIST that the papers accompany the semen and that is not possible due to too short notice so TRACES is the way to go but DEFRA and UK must agree too. The other EU countries do.


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## Alec Swan (9 July 2010)

fc,

you're right,  without question,  BUT whilst defra maintain their current stance,  it's the Continental suppliers who need to get in step.  

Do British breeders have a representative body,  who could in turn make representations to defra,  and ask that they make the effort,  for just this once,  and sort this "******* mess" out?

As Marchell has suggested,  blaming British vets for refusing to break the law,  really isn't on.  Worse,  and I agree,  it's nothing short of insulting.

Alec.


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## AndyPandy (9 July 2010)

I have flagged up the situation to Animal Health... it seems they were unaware of the conflicting advice given by various EU member states' animal health offices.

Will keep you posted with what happens.


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## flyingcolors (10 July 2010)

We cannot do anything here from Germany, its the UK breeders that need to stand up and get the DEFRA accept the TRACES forms online to enable us to ship semen within 24 hours. As long as the vet has to come to sign health papers that need to accompany a shipment, we cannot do this within 24 hours and need the 48 hours time frame to give appointment for the gov vet to come and sign.

It is not the semen that is inspected it is just a confirmation to state that the stallion has passed the health requirements and is EU clear. Nothing more or less and it is truly enough to do that via TRACES.


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## Faberge (13 July 2010)

Today I got a reply from DEFRA after my conversation with them the other day about semen imports. Here is the reply:

Thank you for your enquiry received on the 7th of July 2010, reagrding the import of Equine Semen from the Netherlands.

As discussed it states on the Health Certificate that the original copy of the Health Certificate must accompany the consignment during its movement. A model copy of the Health Certificate can be found through the link below;
http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/animaltrade/imports/iins/pdf/95-307-EC.pdf

Official veterinarians must certify fresh/chilled semen on the day of collection. As per point 3.1 of the Traces Health Certificate the official veterinarian must be able to certify that &#8216;the semen described above was collected from donor stallions, which on the day the semen was collected have not shown clinical signs of an infectious or contagious disease&#8217;.

<<Equine Semen Health Certificate.pdf>> 

General Guidance on the import requirements for Equine Semen can be found in Importer Information Note (IIN) Genetic-A/11, as found through the link below;

http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/animaltrade/imports/iins/genetic/genetic-a11.htm

I hope this has answered all of your questions,

Yours Sincerely,
Ben Crisp
Animal Health Imports Team
Specialist Service Centre for Imports


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