# Angry, disgusted, devestated...trust no one!!!



## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

I have a TB mare that was on grass livery at a yard in Wales where I used to live. I have recently moved to Surrey and due to only having room for 3 horses on our lorry when moving down my mare and my OH's mare stayed on livery there until we could travel back to get them. 

So to cut a long story sideways...my OH went to get them at the weekend, only to find my mare in such a state she was too weak to travel back on the lorry. He phoned me crying at the state she was in, I have seen pictures as I was unable to go back with them as I was looking after the yard at home. She is a walking skeleton :'( well, barely able to walk, she was dehydrated and basically ready to give up. I have seen rescue cases and she is by far the worst I have ever seen, every bone and every rib, so upsetting just thinking about it.

She was moved to a friends yard just 2mins down the road to get her back on the mend for a few weeks until she was stronger to last the journey. Only yesterday she took a turn for the worst and colapsed outside her stable and after several attempts to get her up (4 men and a tractor) she wouldn't  I was given those awful words that PTS would be best for her. I gave the vet the go ahead as, even my little superstar I've had for 9yrs, I would never want to see her suffer, she doesnt deserve it. The vet went to give her the injection and from no where, she found the strength to get up! She is a fighter and always has been and I know she can pull through. Just taking each day at a time. 

I just can't believe that someone I thought I trusted, someone I once called a friend could let a horse get in to such a state. An owner of a livery yard, someone you are meant to trust to look after your horse!? So angry at myself for trusting someone after being told for so long they were both fine and looking well, just can't put in to words how devestated I am for my horse. Its disgusting to think that people can call themselves horse lovers yet ignore the fact a horse under their nose is literally dying. Is this neglect? I just want to know where I stand. 

I dread to think if we hadn't gone to get her when we did she would have been found dead in the field  we owe them a months livery and tbh I am extremely reluctant to give it to them! If anything, they're getting my vets bills!

But for now I just want my little girl to get better


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## glamourpuss (20 February 2013)

Oh gosh what an awful time you've had  

I trust you have photos of the condition of the horse. I definitely wouldn't pay the livery. In fact I would contact small claims court about pursuing them for costs in relation to the condition they allowed the horse to get into.


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## touchstone (20 February 2013)

God how awful, but what a brave little horse she must be.

I would say that the livery yard has been negligent and cruel, they were paid to care for your horse and obviously didn't, even if it is an underlying condition causing the emaciation, then a vet should have been called and the owner notified.

I wouldn't pay a penny and would seek legal advice - the BHS has a free legal helpline for members.  I would think that prosecution for neglect could be a possibility so make sure to keep a record and take photos.

I hope you horse makes a full recovery.


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## Pearlsasinger (20 February 2013)

Horrible situation to be in!
How long was there between moving the others and going back for her?


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## quirky (20 February 2013)

How long was she there? Must've been quite a time to deteriorate to such an extent 
Hope she picks up with some tlc and you can get her home soon.


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## weebarney (20 February 2013)

Who was supposed to be caring for it? It would take a long time for a horse to turn skeletal, how long since you last saw horse looking ok?


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## BBH (20 February 2013)

A horse can't go from being healthy to collapse in a short space of time so I'd be looking to myself to see if I shouldn't have checked on her more frequently or ask a friend to do so.

Its not what you want to hear but you need to take some responsibility for her, its not unusual that people in the horse world are not to be trusted, especially if the owner is not around.

Failing that go after them legally for not providing the service you paid for.   They have a duty of care which has failed.


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## asterid (20 February 2013)

OMG! How utterly dreadful. So glad your mare is now elsewhere and hopefully be on the mend. 

I would be totally angry and upset and probably not accountable for my actions! I would be furious! Yes, it is neglect if they were paid to be in someone elses care. 

Don't pay the livery! I don't know much on RSPCA and other organisations for welfare etc, but I am sure someone else on here can offer you some really good legal advice.


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## Tonks (20 February 2013)

This is a horrible situation.

However, just to play devils advocate here.....

If you had her on 'grass livery' and there was a contact in place, you need to refer to this contract as it may state that the owner of the livery is not responsible for anything other than renting a field to you. 

Normally with grass livery, the livery owner is not responsible for the care of the horse and you are simply paying to 'rent' a feild - nothing more. The owner does have a duty of care however, but I don't think this is legally enforceable.

I have a feeling that if it's grass livery it is your responsbility to care for the animal as it would be the same for DIY. 

If she were on full livery, it would be a different kettle of fish.

If however, she was on grass livery without a contract and you only have a verbal 'contract' or it was simply a discussion with a freind, it is very difficult to enforce legally as ultimately you are responsible.


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## lottiepony (20 February 2013)

Awful situation how long was she there for?


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Thank you everyone, I last saw her at the beginning of December and she looked fine, lost her muscle which is understandable after not being in work but she was fat. 

When my OH got there the YO said not to take her rug off because she would get cold, and hadn't mentioned anything until my OH was on his way she said oh btw the little mare looks poor. Fair enough after having snow so only hay to survive on I wasn't expecting her to look a million dollars. But I certainly wasn't expecting this 

I completely blame myself, wishing I hadn't put her there but at the time it was our only option. Its only been 2 months since I've seen her and I just can't believe the state she is in  

Its touch and go at the moment but I have pictures and also text messages from the YO saying right up until Friday that both mares are fine.


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## Elsiecat (20 February 2013)

I'm sorry but 2 months without seeing her (you definitely could have found the time in 2 months to get her or at the least check on her). And as far as I'm aware grass livery is grass livery.
If she'd been on full livery then it would be different. 
It doesn't excuse the YO care of duty for the horses. But as an owner you really didn't do enough.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Tonks said:



			This is a horrible situation.

However, just to play devils advocate here.....

If you had her on 'grass livery' and there was a contact in place, you need to refer to this contract as it may state that the owner of the livery is not responsible for anything other than renting a field to you. 

Normally with grass livery, the livery owner is not responsible for the care of the horse and you are simply paying to 'rent' a feild - nothing more. The owner does have a duty of care however, but I don't think this is legally enforceable.

I have a feeling that if it's grass livery it is your responsbility to care for the animal as it would be the same for DIY. 

If she were on full livery, it would be a different kettle of fish.

If however, she was on grass livery without a contract and you only have a verbal 'contract' or it was simply a discussion with a freind, it is very difficult to enforce legally as ultimately you are responsible.
		
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She was out on grass livery at a livery yard along with 9 or more other liveries horses. It was agreed with myself, the YO and my OH that she would check them (as we were moving to Surrey) until we could arrange to come back and get them. 

I agree it was only a grass livery as such, but as we were friends and were in a difficult situation, this was what was agreed. 

When we were there we did go and check them, but when you think you know these people you put your trust in them


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## tessybear (20 February 2013)

Elsiecat said:



			I'm sorry but 2 months without seeing her (you definitely could have found the time in 2 months to get her or at the least check on her). And as far as I'm aware grass livery is grass livery.
If she'd been on full livery then it would be different. 
It doesn't excuse the YO care of duty for the horses. But as an owner you really didn't do enough.
		
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This ^^ I am afraid, could you not have got friend down the road to visit her ? If it was my horse away from me for 2 months and i had friends locally i would be getting them to take photos and e-mail them over or at least check.

Good luck with her though x


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## touchstone (20 February 2013)

Tonks said:



			This is a horrible situation.

However, just to play devils advocate here.....

If you had her on 'grass livery' and there was a contact in place, you need to refer to this contract as it may state that the owner of the livery is not responsible for anything other than renting a field to you. 

Normally with grass livery, the livery owner is not responsible for the care of the horse and you are simply paying to 'rent' a feild - nothing more. The owner does have a duty of care however, but I don't think this is legally enforceable.

I have a feeling that if it's grass livery it is your responsbility to care for the animal as it would be the same for DIY. 

If she were on full livery, it would be a different kettle of fish.

If however, she was on grass livery without a contract and you only have a verbal 'contract' or it was simply a discussion with a freind, it is very difficult to enforce legally as ultimately you are responsible.
		
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Disagree with this post - the livery yard owner has a duty of care legally, regardless of the type of livery provided or whether a written contract was drawn up - paying money *is* a contract.   Ring the BHS op


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Elsiecat said:



			I'm sorry but 2 months without seeing her (you definitely could have found the time in 2 months to get her or at the least check on her). And as far as I'm aware grass livery is grass livery.
If she'd been on full livery then it would be different. 
It doesn't excuse the YO care of duty for the horses. But as an owner you really didn't do enough.
		
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Yeah if it was 5mins down the road I would be there every day, but when its 500 miles its slightly different. I left December, thats when I last saw her. Then we had all the snow so we werent able to go, plus neither of us drive the lorry so we had to wait for our friend to be available and have the time off work. 

So believe me if I had a sooner opportunity to go we would of. But thanks for sending my guilt trip on an even bigger trip.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

tessybear said:



			This ^^ I am afraid, could you not have got friend down the road to visit her ? If it was my horse away from me for 2 months and i had friends locally i would be getting them to take photos and e-mail them over or at least check.

Good luck with her though x
		
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Yes, the YO was a friend, checking her every day. But obviously I learnt the hard way that you can't trust anyone these days. 

Being told every day your horse is fine, you stupidly believe them.


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## Elsiecat (20 February 2013)

"So believe me if I had a sooner opportunity to go we would of. But thanks for sending my guilt trip on an even bigger trip."

So you wanted me to back you up and completely blame the YO for something that is equally your fault!? We're we all supposed to ignore the fact that as an owner you could have done more?
You're on a public forum, don't chuck your toys out of the pram when people disagree with you. 
For what it's worth I did have a degree of sympathy for you. I don't now. The only one I have sympathy for is the horse and I hope she gets better.


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## Firewell (20 February 2013)

Actually I think the responsibilty does partly lie with the livery yard owner. The horse was on her property under her care. If she was on DIY grass livery and she was just left for 2 months (which is abysmal IMO), the yard owner should have rung up OP and said that they won't have a horse on the yard that is not being taken care of and that she will take care of horse and charge OP or OP has to remove horse. I know all my livery contracts I have signed DIY or not say that if the horse is not recieving adequate care, care will be provided and charged for. Even where I work which is very much DIY any horse that is just left in the field, we ask their owners to remove horse or we will charge for feeding it.
If the OP was paying for full grass livery where the horse was to be fed hay and checked regularly I probably would take the livery yard owner to court for causing unneccessary suffering. If you are paying for a service you should be recieving it.
Without knowing more details on the agreement it is hard to assign the blame but I think it is disgusting that a horse was allowed to get into this state by an owner who has a responisbilty to make sure their horse is OK and a yard who has a responsibility to make sure the horses on it are ok!


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## touchstone (20 February 2013)

Don't beat yourself up op; you did what you could under the circumstances and sadly we often learn the hard way that trust can be misplaced with certain individuals.   You were paying for a service which wasn't provided, the yo is the one in the wrong and the one who had a legal responsibility of duty of care to the horse at the time.


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## ester (20 February 2013)

was hay to be provided as part of the contract/charged separately? 

does your other horse look ok (as you mention both mares)?

Is it possible that the TB has something underlying going on that has caused the weightloss over and above the other one? or is she a poor doer anyway (in which case perhaps grass livery wasn't suitable for her)


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## skint1 (20 February 2013)

I'm really very sorry for your mare and for  you, I can't begin to imagine how you must feel right now, a hard lesson learnt for you I am sure.

I  think a lot of the time when we go away and leave our horses in the care of others it turns out that  "checking" the horse is literally just seeing there is still a leg in each corner. Was she supposed to be being fed? Did you pay anyone extra for care?


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## Elsiecat (20 February 2013)

I agree with everything Firewall has said. She put it better than I could!


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## ponypilotmum (20 February 2013)

OP, ignore the people digging the knife in deeper. None of them would have driven 500 miles weekly to check on a horse they were trusting a friend to look after either. No matter what they say. 

I doubt you'll get a penny from your ex friend, but do not pay the livery, and chalk it up as experience.


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## ihatework (20 February 2013)

Were you paying for your horse to be fed and hayed? If not, why not? We have had one of the most awful winters, with all this rain - most fields are trashed.

If you agreed with the livery owner that they would check on the horse, and they have been saying everything is fine, then yes they have been negligent. But don't lay all the blame on them.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Elsiecat said:



			"So believe me if I had a sooner opportunity to go we would of. But thanks for sending my guilt trip on an even bigger trip."

So you wanted me to back you up and completely blame the YO for something that is equally your fault!? We're we all supposed to ignore the fact that as an owner you could have done more?
You're on a public forum, don't chuck your toys out of the pram when people disagree with you. 
For what it's worth I did have a degree of sympathy for you. I don't now. The only one I have sympathy for is the horse and I hope she gets better.
		
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Its only my fault why she was there, she has been there since October last year, and until December when I moved she was checked by myself and was fine. Happy as larry with the others, once we moved it was agreed that until we could come back for them the YO was going to take care of them and charge us accordingly. Which is what she did, hay was put in the field when the bad weather came, which was added to our bill. We kept in touch and frequently asked how they were doing and I have umpteen messages saying they were both doing well. So this has only happened since being completely under the YO care. I know I only have myself to blame for the length of time she has been there, I appologise for snapping but I'm in a pretty ****** situation at the moment. I just feel gutted for my horse that I have allowed it to happen  but then I do think the YO is the only one to blame for the condition she is in.


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## Elsiecat (20 February 2013)

"ponypilotmum
OP, ignore the people digging the knife in deeper. None of them would have driven 500 miles weekly to check on a horse they were trusting a friend to look after either. No matter what they say. "

No but when I moved I did a 160 mile trip daily to sort my horse out, muck out, ride, groom and do haynets and feed buckets. This was for a full week. 
So don't say in 8 weeks she couldn't have made 1 trip!

I'm not 'digging the knife in deeper' I'm merely playing devils advocate on a thread where she is openly trying to lay all the blame on the YO. 
It's a sad lesson learnt but we all need to walk away from things with our eyes opened. I'm sorry this has happened to the OP but I'm more sorry that this has happened to the horse!


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## TrasaM (20 February 2013)

I don't understand why some posters are blaming the OP for leaving her horse with a trusted 'friend' and not checking up on it in person.
I hope your horse makes a full recovery. I'd be in touch with the animal welfare people to ask if anything could be done and getting legal advice on what if any legal action could be taken against this person.

I can sadly see how this could happen as I share a horse who is kept at a yard owned by a friend of the horses owner. Horse has been fed crappy hay and underfed to the point where the vet and back lady commented on how thin hes become. And that's with us being there most days! 
I could see the same thing happening to him if we were to leave him in her care and not check on him.


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## Booboos (20 February 2013)

With the extra information you have provided it does seem to have been the YO at fault. If she had agreed to look after the mare and paid to do so there is no excuse. There may be some underlying condition that has caused your mare to deteriorate so rapidly but I imagine the YO left her unattended with a rug on so did not notice the early signs. 

What a terrible situation to be in! I don't think you were wrong to trust the YO, you knew her, it was her job and you paid her to do her job which she did not do.

I hope your mare recovers and can travel down to your new home.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

ihatework said:



			Were you paying for your horse to be fed and hayed? If not, why not? We have had one of the most awful winters, with all this rain - most fields are trashed.

If you agreed with the livery owner that they would check on the horse, and they have been saying everything is fine, then yes they have been negligent. But don't lay all the blame on them.
		
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Yes hay was put in the fields and added to our bill. The other mare looks ok, not great but not as bad as mine. 

I just dont believe things like this can happen over night. She apparently said that she needed her teeth doing (even though they were done in Aug last year) thats why she wasn't eating, but she never told us she wasn't eating until Friday and she had bad mud fever so her legs were sore. This I expecting living out but why wasn't I informed? Then I could have done something. I have said so many times now if she said she thought she wasn't doing well being out or was looking poor I'd have paid for her to move to full livery etc and then come up and get her. I just stupidly believed that she was ok


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## navaho (20 February 2013)

Lots of understanding sympathetic people as ever on here!
If youve left your horse in the care of someone you consider a friend why would you feel the need to check it? We dont know OP's circumstances, how do we know she could get back to check on the mare, love the way you all make assumptions without knowing a the whole story. For that matter a horse can drop weight in very short space of time given the right set of circumstance, having had mine out on loan for a month & had him returned in a shocking state i find it totally plausible! Seems to me OP's friend should have informed her if there was concern over the mares weight & asked that she was either taken away or moved to stabling. If you put your horse in the care of someone else then surely they should be informing you of any concerns not just ignoring it till the horse is on deaths door.....& going "ooops my bad, i forgot to tell you".
Dont beat yourself up OP, s**t happens, the main thing is youve got her somewhere where she can hopefully regain strength & make the long journey down to you.


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## JustKickOn (20 February 2013)

Lack of due care and attention from both sides. Livery yard owner should have been honest about the horse and arrange with the owner suitable care. Owner should have found means to check on horse, or had another friend just check up on the horses. 

Hope all the horses are ok.


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## lachlanandmarcus (20 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			Its only my fault why she was there, she has been there since October last year, and until December when I moved she was checked by myself and was fine. Happy as larry with the others, once we moved it was agreed that until we could come back for them the YO was going to take care of them and charge us accordingly. Which is what she did, hay was put in the field when the bad weather came, which was added to our bill. We kept in touch and frequently asked how they were doing and I have umpteen messages saying they were both doing well. So this has only happened since being completely under the YO care. I know I only have myself to blame for the length of time she has been there, I appologise for snapping but I'm in a pretty ****** situation at the moment. I just feel gutted for my horse that I have allowed it to happen  but then I do think the YO is the only one to blame for the condition she is in.
		
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They are to blame, you were paying them to look after your horse and they were telling you the horse is ok. THEY were legally responsible for their care and if there was an issue with the horse they were responsible for either dealing with it or contacting you to raise it so that you could.

It's a different scenario from one where a horse is just left, its keep not paid for or something like that. 

I do think you should pursue it tho, were any vets consulted? If not and you weren't told either then I would be contacting Bhs or one of the welfare charities even the dreaded RSPCA, if ony to get this person onto the known to us radar in case something similar should happen again.


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## hairycob (20 February 2013)

OP there are some people who obviously can't understand that 500 miles is a long way. If it helps I have seen a horse go from covered but not fat to skeletal in a few days, but he was very ill & it was obvious. If that was the case with yours YO should have been straight on the phone. Hope it goes well. It's hard when someone you think you can trust treats your horse badly.


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## Caol Ila (20 February 2013)

If the OP and the yard owner had an agreement that the YO was to be providing full care for the horse when the OP was away and informed the OP that the horse was fine, then the YO is responsible for the horse's condition.  Even if the horse has some medical issue which caused her to lose weight like that, surely the YO should have noticed and told the owner that the horse wasn't fine and called the vet.  

I have left my horse in the care of a friend for three months and not checked on her myself during that time (I was in Ireland; horse was in the States, so checking on her wasn't exactly pragmatic).  I relied on updates from my friend, who always told me she was fine, which she was. It didn't occur to me to ask another friend to double check on the horse or anything like that.  I just assumed that if my friend, who I trusted enough to be responsible for my horse for three months, told me that the horse was happy and healthy, then she was.  I'm just saying, it's not out of line or unreasonable to leave your horse in someone else's care for a few months and then trust that they will give you honest updates about how he or she is doing.


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## marmalade76 (20 February 2013)

ester said:



			was hay to be provided as part of the contract/charged separately? 

does your other horse look ok (as you mention both mares)?

Is it possible that the TB has something underlying going on that has caused the weightloss over and above the other one? or is she a poor doer anyway (in which case perhaps grass livery wasn't suitable for her)
		
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My thoughts exactly.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			They are to blame, you were paying them to look after your horse and they were telling you the horse is ok. THEY were legally responsible for their care and if there was an issue with the horse they were responsible for either dealing with it or contacting you to raise it so that you could.

It's a different scenario from one where a horse is just left, its keep not paid for or something like that. 

I do think you should pursue it tho, were any vets consulted? If not and you weren't told either then I would be contacting Bhs or one of the welfare charities even the dreaded RSPCA, if ony to get this person onto the known to us radar in case something similar should happen again.
		
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Yeah the vet was called on Saturday who confirmed she was too weak to travel. She was given fluids, antibiotics for her mud fever, bute, liquid paraphyn and electrolytes as she is prone to impaction colic. So its touch and go for her now as she is so weak she can't walk very well, yet she needs to walk to stop the impaction. She had coliced yesterday so had to be flushed out. Shes having such a hard time right now and its killing me not being there  

For everyone saying I must have had time to go back in 8 weeks, its difficult when you run your own livery yard....don't want to leave other peoples horses behind. Which is why I am so annoyed as I could never and would never let a horse on my livery yard get in such a state. Not even my worst enemy. I am reluctant to post photos as they are too distressing


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## Merrymoles (20 February 2013)

OP I have no idea of your personal circumstances so am not going to join those saying it is your fault. If you trusted the YO's word as a friend, then I can understand why you are so upset. I have friends I would trust to look after my horse in difficult circumstances, including if I was no longer around, but who can say whether the same could happen to me.
One thing that isn't clear is whether your OH's mare, who was also left there, is OK? If she is, I would be very concerned that there is something serious underlying your mare's condition and would have the vet running all the checks now.


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## ImmyS (20 February 2013)

To be honest I think blame can be placed on both sides of the party, the yard owner has a duty of care to the horses but so do you as an owner, if I couldn't make the trip I probably would have wanted photo updates to check all is well.

 However if I was in your situation I would have used the money you would be spending on livery to have the horses transported down straight away or at least sooner, although what's done is done and i hope your little mare is feeling much better soon x


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

moleskinsmum said:



			OP I have no idea of your personal circumstances so am not going to join those saying it is your fault. If you trusted the YO's word as a friend, then I can understand why you are so upset. I have friends I would trust to look after my horse in difficult circumstances, including if I was no longer around, but who can say whether the same could happen to me.
One thing that isn't clear is whether your OH's mare, who was also left there, is OK? If she is, I would be very concerned that there is something serious underlying your mare's condition and would have the vet running all the checks now.
		
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My OHs mare is ok, she doesnt look great as we found out she lost her rug a while ago and another wasn't put on. But thats another story. The vet said she has obviously not coped and must have been too weak to walk to the hay, but if this was the case why was it un noticed?  she doesnt have any underlying problems to cause her to loose weight so dramatically, I've owned her for 9yrs and although a TB she was never difficult to keep weight on. I just think she has got to a point where she had given up but went completely un noticed, poor girl


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## millitiger (20 February 2013)

Gosh, aren't there some self righteous posters on this thread!

OP, in your position, I too would be extremely angry and feel let down by the YO (particularly as she was also a friend!).

You have left your horses in her care, she knew she was responsible for them and hadn't alerted you that the mare was dropping weight to the point she could barely stand.

I have had horses on grass livery and I have had liveries at my place before and I would place the responsibility for this mare's condition squarely with the YO, not the OP.

My broodmare is away at the moment on livery- she is only about 100 miles away but we only go to see her every 8 weeks or so.
She is beautifully cared for and I have no complaints but I would expect if there was any issue with her care or condition I would be told asap, not for them to wait for my next visit to come around (and I do have absolute faith the carer of my horse would do that for me )


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## Luci07 (20 February 2013)

I wonder if some of the posters actually read the OP's first words before responding? 2 horses could not be brought up. Arrangements had been made for care to be given which included checking and hay. Mare had been well and healthy before leaving. I would have trusted someone if that had been the case and I was paying for the service.

Those who question how the horse can lose so much weight - the horse is a TB and they can drop weight incredibly quickly. My TB dropped so much weight after his colic operation, I walked straight past him when I came up to see him 2 days after the op. I had stayed, watched the op and left a horse that looked like a fit hunter. 2 days later I didn't recognise him. 

I would suspect the mare became cold and that hay was not enough to keep her going and she actually needed hard feed as well. We have a few TB and TB x's who live out and without exception, they did all need hard feed during the snow as well as the extra forage and extra rugs. They have all come out looking well, even the highly strung 4 year old TB mare.


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## wench (20 February 2013)

Firewall's post says it all really.

If YO had agreed to care for them, then it should have been done; even if only taking the rugs off every few days or so to see what was happening underneath.

Could be some medical issue to cause weight loss.


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## AdorableAlice (20 February 2013)

Look at it in a different light and then consider the answer.

If the OP had been too ill to care for the mare and had placed the horse in the hands of a friend who was both paid and trusted to care for the horse would so many of you being blaming the OP for the situation ?

Of course not, we would all be wishing the OP a speedy recovery and hoping she can enjoy her horse again.

Regardless of the reason, be it a long distance move, illness, work commitments etc, the OP paid and trusted a friend to care for the horse.

I hope the horse recovers OP, and if I had been in your situation and my horse had ended up like that I would have knocked the friends teeth down her throat !


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## Wagtail (20 February 2013)

My heart bleeds for this little mare. I hope that she manages to make a full recovery. If she does, then it is likely that she will have a legacy of gastric ulcers. This happened to one of my livery clients at her last livery. She had a knee operation which took 6 weeks to recover from. She left her horse on full livery. After 6 weeks when she removed her horse's rugs, she was like a walking skeleton! She is at my yard now but has recurrent ulcers that will never completely go. 

If you left your horses with the YO agreeing to 'check on them', this is not the same as 'feeding them'. Was there an agreement in place regarding feeding?  She would have needed the best part of a bale of hay a day. There is no reason for grass kept horses to drop condition if they are being adequately fed.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Wagtail said:



			My heart bleeds for this little mare. I hope that she manages to make a full recovery. If she does, then it is likely that she will have a legacy of gastric ulcers. This happened to one of my livery clients at her last livery. She had a knee operation which took 6 weeks to recover from. She left her horse on full livery. After 6 weeks when she removed her horse's rugs, she was like a walking skeleton! She is at my yard now but has recurrent ulcers that will never completely go. 

If you left your horses with the YO agreeing to 'check on them', this is not the same as 'feeding them'. Was there an agreement in place regarding feeding?  She would have needed the best part of a bale of hay a day. There is no reason for grass kept horses to drop condition if they are being adequately fed.
		
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She was in a 20 acre field with grass at least ankle high! But when the snow came yes bales of hay were put in the field and we were charged accordingly. If she needed hard feed I would have also paid for this, but I wasn't told that she clearly wasn't coping  we have horses living out at our yard and we also have 2 colts living out and they are fat as puddings! I believe any horse can live out if they are cared for correctly. I just wish the YO said something and I could have done something to help her


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## Wagtail (20 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			She was in a 20 acre field with grass at least ankle high! But when the snow came yes bales of hay were put in the field and we were charged accordingly. If she needed hard feed I would have also paid for this, but I wasn't told that she clearly wasn't coping  we have horses living out at our yard and we also have 2 colts living out and they are fat as puddings! I believe any horse can live out if they are cared for correctly. I just wish the YO said something and I could have done something to help her
		
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Sorry, I posted before reading all the thread. Unbelievable that the YO did not notice a problem. They should have been removing rugs every few days to check all was well. I will keep my fingers crossed for your poor girlie. I hope she pulls through, bless her.


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## Ibblebibble (20 February 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			Look at it in a different light and then consider the answer.

If the OP had been too ill to care for the mare and had placed the horse in the hands of a friend who was both paid and trusted to care for the horse would so many of you being blaming the OP for the situation ?

Of course not, we would all be wishing the OP a speedy recovery and hoping she can enjoy her horse again.

Regardless of the reason, be it a long distance move, illness, work commitments etc, the OP paid and trusted a friend to care for the horse.

I hope the horse recovers OP, and if I had been in your situation and my horse had ended up like that I would have knocked the friends teeth down her throat !
		
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^^^ this^^^

The OP obviously felt she had made adequate arrangements for her horse to be cared for until she could collect her. when you are a considerable distance away and have other responsibilities you will rightly (or wrongly) assume that your horse is being cared for as arranged and not feel you have to drive over there weekly to check!
Awful thing to happen OP and i hope your mare makes a good recovery.x


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Had an update about her....she is back on the floor again and won't get up  vet is coming back out today and we will decide what is best for her. Even if there was a glimmer of hope I would hate to think she is suffering in any way. I always had a vision in my head where she would be old and grey and her last minutes would be spent with me, happy, where she belonged. Not 500 miles away with (to her) strangers and in a state so bad she is unable to stand. She owes me nothing and its unbearable knowing she is in such a state :'(


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## Fellewell (20 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			Yeah if it was 5mins down the road I would be there every day, but when its 500 miles its slightly different. I left December, thats when I last saw her. Then we had all the snow so we werent able to go, plus neither of us drive the lorry so we had to wait for our friend to be available and have the time off work. 

So believe me if I had a sooner opportunity to go we would of. But thanks for sending my guilt trip on an even bigger trip.
		
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So you went up in a 3 horse lorry in December? A 7.5 tonne lorry can be driven on a car licence. I understand you run a livery yard so probably best to get transport issues sorted to avoid this in future.


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## millitiger (20 February 2013)

Fellewell said:



			So you went up in a 3 horse lorry in December? A 7.5 tonne lorry can be driven on a car licence. I understand you run a livery yard so probably best to get transport issues sorted to avoid this in future.
		
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Only if you are old enough to have grandfather rights actually 

And why should she need transport available at all times because she is livery yard owner??


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## Shettie (20 February 2013)

Sorry to hear about your mare, hoping she makes a speedy recovery and is back home with you soon. 

I had an accident which resulted in operations/totally out of action, sometimes as horse owners we have to rely our trust into other people to take due care of our animals. There are times that we just can't get down for weeks on end unfortunately.


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## SpottedCat (20 February 2013)

OP I think you are being very harshly judged. If someone had a horse with a pro then they might very well not see it from one month to the next, that doesn't mean they should expect it not to be cared for. And this is no different. The person responsible for the horse clearly knew you were going away and that they were in charge of the horse's welfare. 

I've just retired my horse, and you know what, it was 2 months before I went to see him, and he looked great. The whole point of him being on grass livery where he is is that I don't have the time to go and see him particularly often, and I trust the person who is looking after him - and rightly so. 

I feel for you - I think people are being very very unfair. You were paying someone to do and job and they didn't do it.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Fellewell said:



			So you went up in a 3 horse lorry in December? A 7.5 tonne lorry can be driven on a car licence. I understand you run a livery yard so probably best to get transport issues sorted to avoid this in future.
		
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Not when I'm only 23. I'm currently arranging to go through my HGV so it will be sorted. Its annoying as I can drive it, but just not legally! However if I knew she was in such a bad way I'd have risked the trip to go and get her!


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## pip6 (20 February 2013)

Think you have every right to feel angry. You put everything in place to ensure care, but the person being paid failed in their job.

Your right, most horses can live out if properly cared for. I have a 3/4tb broodmare living out, not even rugged & she looks very well. One feed a day but plenty of haylage. It takes seconds to even run a hand under rugs to feel for warmth & condition. That she was being paid to care for your mare, she should have done so much more. Their laziness nearly cost you horse her life.


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## 1Lucie (20 February 2013)

U poor thing. I can kinda sympathise as I have had similar sort of experience with my horse on full livery. Broke my heart and I still haven't forgiven myself. It's very easy to give all 'what ifs' and 'u should of'.... I hope ur horse gets back to full health. My cob actually declined quicker than I would of expected too!


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## Llanali (20 February 2013)

Gosh some of you are unbelievable. If I was A friend trusted to look after someone's horse, and paid to do so, I would feel a bit put out if a third friend was sent to check up on me as some of you suggest should have happened! 

If you pay for care, you should receive it. Poor horse, and poor OP- I hope the mare makes a recovery and you are not too upset by some of the judges on here.


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## ester (20 February 2013)

Thanks for your answers OP, in which case I agree that the YO did not care for your horse adequately! I cannot understand why she did not inform you of her weightloss so that hard feed could be provided (as you would have done if she was with you) and/or appropriate veterinary checks done. 

I hope she pulls through for you. x


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## serena2005 (20 February 2013)

If you had paid for her to be looked after etc, that's what should have been done!

I'm pretty sure if you could see into the future you would have walked her the 500 miles to save her from this dreadful situation!

It would be different if u asked her for a favor but paying someone to do a job they clearly didn't do is not on.

I do agree with some others that the incredible weight loss could also be down to underlying issue.
I'm definitely not excusing the yo for not making you aware of her state.


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## smellsofhorse (20 February 2013)

How long where they left there before you went to collect them?
Did you have a contract stating exactly what care they were to be give?


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## Adina (20 February 2013)

I've read all through this thread and I think YO made a mistake - a mistake that lots of people make with grass livery. CHECK UNDER THE RUG at least once a week. The rug doesn't have to come off, just undo belly straps and run your hands under.  If there is no wind, weather is OK, roll it back to check for rubs.  I don't think there was intentional lack of care.
There are lots of Polo ponies on their winter rest on various farms around here.  They all have adlib hay but are unrugged. Although they are checked daily I cannot imagine anyone would check under rugs of 20 ponies  in a field - so they are better without (and fat and hairy).
If the trusted friend had found the loss of weight she could have informed the owner and made suitable arrangements.
Over the years there have been a number of posts about broodmares returning home in poor state because no-one took a rug off.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

blucanoo1990 said:



			How long where they left there before you went to collect them?
Did you have a contract stating exactly what care they were to be give?
		
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From the end of December until Friday they were there under the YOs care. Nothing was put in writing as in a contract or anything as it was a friends place. We have text messages from YO and us asking about the mares etc. YO also informed us of the hay being put in the fields would be an extra cost and we agreed this was fine. Nothing else in writing as such unfortunately


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## BorgRae (20 February 2013)

OP - I have read the whole thread and truly feel devastated for you. You did all you could, don't blame yourself.

I saw your last post stating that her condition had deteriorated.

My heart goes out to you and your mare. I really hope she pulls through this, bless her.

Thinking of you both and sending <<<<<healing vibes>>>>>

Let us know how she gets on xx


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## PandorasJar (20 February 2013)

quirky said:



			How long was she there? Must've been quite a time to deteriorate to such an extent 

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I wouldn't be paying livery as either care was poor, or there was a condition that vet should've been called immediately to.

However in regards to the above I've seen a shockingly fast deterioration, from good, 48 hours off colour and having a vet booked, to near skeletal in about 24. So over the course of 3 days which the vet was booked for the third. Will have to find out what the actual term was, but was to do with rapid water loss. He'd been off colour a couple of days ahead, off food (but not completely) drinking okay and vet was due out on the day he deteriorated. Came well again very quickly after though.

So it is possible that the neglect in OPs case wasn't continued, but in the form of not getting a vet out urgently.


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## glamourpuss (20 February 2013)

I think that a lot of the posters here should get down off their high horse.
The extra information the OP shows that this horse was not abandoned by an uncaring owner. It looks like provisions were put in place to give the best care to the horse until it could be collected.

That said even if these provisions hadn't been put in place, even if this OP had left the horse without proper care (which I honestly don't believe) this YO should not have allowed a horse to get into the state it has on their yard. No-one should watch a horse become so emaciated that it collapses. 
Even if there hasn't been regular contact - which it obviously sounds like there has. The YO had a duty to the horse on her property, would it have killed her to call the OP & said 'I don't think your horse is coping at the moment, I think you need to come see her/move her' . No, it wouldn't!

All this OPdid was put her trust in a friend. Lots of us do that. She has been lied to & now the poor horse is suffering.

OP if you have records of texts/ emails/bills for hay etc I would be tempted to speak to the WHW about this being a severe neglect case


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## touchstone (20 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			From the end of December until Friday they were there under the YOs care. Nothing was put in writing as in a contract or anything as it was a friends place. We have text messages from YO and us asking about the mares etc. YO also informed us of the hay being put in the fields would be an extra cost and we agreed this was fine. Nothing else in writing as such unfortunately 

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Like I posted before, if money was exchanged then legally there doesn't have to be a written contract.  The yo failed in their duty of care.   You really need legal advice on this one if you want to take it further, but I expect you'd have a pretty good case.


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## PandorasJar (20 February 2013)

Luci07 said:



			We have a few TB and TB x's who live out and without exception, they did all need hard feed during the snow as well as the extra forage and extra rugs. They have all come out looking well, even the highly strung 4 year old TB mare.
		
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I have tb and tbx out with no rugs and no hard feed. The tb is a biger pain than the natives as the only one who comes out of winter having put on weight . Plenty of tb broodies are out naked and with only forage too. However the forage must be there - we have ad lib large haylage bales in wet and snow.


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## meesha (20 February 2013)

silvershoes - so so sorry to hear about your mare.

The fact that you moved is irrelevant - if you made arrangements with the YO (again irrelevant if she was a friend as she wasnt doing it out of friendship but was charging) to care for your horse and to bill you accordingly for hay etc then she is totally and utterley at fault.

How can anyone fail to notice a horse not coping ! even under a thick rug you can see loss of condition and she had a duty of care to your mare to check her properly.

I would without a doubt be leaving any bill she has presented you with unpaid - I would also be billing her for all vets bills and calling the rspca to make them aware of the situation - for all you know there may be other horses in a bad way on her land.

Keeping fingers crossed for your mare.  Take Care.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			I think that a lot of the posters here should get down off their high horse.
The extra information the OP shows that this horse was not abandoned by an uncaring owner. It looks like provisions were put in place to give the best care to the horse until it could be collected.

That said even if these provisions hadn't been put in place, even if this OP had left the horse without proper care (which I honestly don't believe) this YO should not have allowed a horse to get into the state it has on their yard. No-one should watch a horse become so emaciated that it collapses. 
Even if there hasn't been regular contact - which it obviously sounds like there has. The YO had a duty to the horse on her property, would it have killed her to call the OP & said 'I don't think your horse is coping at the moment, I think you need to come see her/move her' . No, it wouldn't!

All this OPdid was put her trust in a friend. Lots of us do that. She has been lied to & now the poor horse is suffering.

OP if you have records of texts/ emails/bills for hay etc I would be tempted to speak to the WHW about this being a severe neglect case 

Click to expand...

Thank you, I have a contact for a solicitor and will take it further. Just waiting to speak to the vet today to ditermine how she is today. Was informed earlier she is down again and can't get up, she's always been such a fighter when it comes to illness or injury. She is a typical TB and finds it difficult to stay out of trouble  but this is just ridiculous. I would hate to think I am making her suffer for the sake of keeping her, if in reality she might never have a quality of life again. I had plans of putting her in foal in the spring after having a but of fun with her again, hacking and a few xc days, all seems a blur now and rather than wondering what her foal will be like, I'm wondering how hard it will be without her


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## Irishbabygirl (20 February 2013)

OP, you've done nothing wrong - you've paid for a livery service that wasn't provided by the YO. I hope your mare recovers from this, keep us posted.


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## Elsiecat (20 February 2013)

I think plenty of people are getting the wrong end of the stick from my posts. I'm not on a 'high horse'. I'm being realistic. There's few people you can trust in the world, I wouldn't dream of not seeing my horse in 8 weeks. Not saying that the OP is a bad owner, but I am saying the she could have done more where that was concerned. Having said that, if she trusted YO, I suppose she'd have no reason to doubt her. 
I bet the livery yard owners version of events would paint an entirely different story. I'm not saying that the YO is in the right, because she's not. She's far from it and I'd be reporting her to the RSPCA. 
The horse has been put in an awful situation and my heart goes out to her. 
The horse had 2 people with a duty of care, owner and YO. Sadly one didn't know (owner) and another either didn't know or didn't care (YO). 
I think we all are on a common ground with praying this horse gets better. 
We all hear horror stories time and time again. When will we all become vigilante?


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## Rollin (20 February 2013)

So sad to read your story.  I hope your horse makes a full recovery.

I am the most distrustful person in the world. I kept my first horse on full livery because of the demands of my job.  I questioned the fact that his hard feed, which I purchased seemed to last a long time.  He got mild colic and I discovered the Head Girl was not feeding him at all Monday-Friday and the other grooms knew this.  She was just lazy and lied to me. 

My husband and I went away on holiday and paid over £1,000 in livery at the one of the most expensive centres in Scotland.  We arrived at 10.00am on a Sunday morning to collect them and discovered water buckets choked with straw and horses not fed.

The Yard Manager did not work on a Sunday and the students who worked there were arguing over whose responsibility it was to feed the three boxes occupied by my two old geldings and pony.  So they did nothing!!


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## magichorse (20 February 2013)

Silvershoes, this is dreadful and absolutely not your fault.  You must feel devastated please don't listen to those who are saying that you are to blame.  You left the horses in good faith and expected them to be cared for.  I sincerely hope that your mare pulls through and makes a full recovery x


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## touchstone (20 February 2013)

Elsiecat said:



			I think plenty of people are getting the wrong end of the stick from my posts. I'm not on a 'high horse'. I'm being realistic. There's few people you can trust in the world, I wouldn't dream of not seeing my horse in 8 weeks. Not saying that the OP is a bad owner, but I am saying the she could have done more where that was concerned. Having said that, if she trusted YO, I suppose she'd have no reason to doubt her. 
I bet the livery yard owners version of events would paint an entirely different story. I'm not saying that the YO is in the right, because she's not. She's far from it and I'd be reporting her to the RSPCA. 
The horse has been put in an awful situation and my heart goes out to her. 
The horse had 2 people with a duty of care, owner and YO. Sadly one didn't know (owner) and another either didn't know or didn't care (YO). 
I think we all are on a common ground with praying this horse gets better. 
We all hear horror stories time and time again. When will we all become vigilante?
		
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Oh I agree we need to be vigilant, however the op trusted this person, was sent regular updates and so felt she had no reason to doubt the information she was being given.  

I daresay it is a hard lesson well learned, but the wrong doer in this is the YO - I had a pony abandoned on my grazing and legally it then became my responsibility to care for it; the YO in this instance was being paid and completely out of order to allow the horse to get to this stage, the vet, owner or welfare agencies should all have been contacted rather than just leave the poor horse to starve to death.


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## applecart14 (20 February 2013)

How appalling.  I truly hope your little mare makes it xx


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## PandorasJar (20 February 2013)

Adina said:



			I've read all through this thread and I think YO made a mistake - a mistake that lots of people make with grass livery. CHECK UNDER THE RUG at least once a week. The rug doesn't have to come off, just undo belly straps and run your hands under.  If there is no wind, weather is OK, roll it back to check for rubs.  I don't think there was intentional lack of care.
There are lots of Polo ponies on their winter rest on various farms around here.  They all have adlib hay but are unrugged. Although they are checked daily I cannot imagine anyone would check under rugs of 20 ponies  in a field - so they are better without (and fat and hairy).
If the trusted friend had found the loss of weight she could have informed the owner and made suitable arrangements.
Over the years there have been a number of posts about broodmares returning home in poor state because no-one took a rug off.
		
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I would not be happy with only checking under a rug once a week. The rug should be checked at minimum daily. Rain, wind, heat changes so much and a rug will hugely affect how each is felt. A warm day will be far warmer and a simple overrug (when cutting wind out would've been enough) can do a fair amount of damage in a day alone.
I used to check liveries rugs at the minimum three times a day (twice by myself and once by someone being paid to do so as part of their jobs) and more if sun came out or weather changed.

Unrugged furries I'm not so worried about as rugged as they can regulate and you can see the body clearly but should still be checked frequently.

A rug hides a multitude of sins including bad injuries and if the intention isn't to check under them, then they shouldn't be taking on the care of the animal.


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## shadowboy (20 February 2013)

Silvershoes I feel for you. I had a similar situatiation where my TB mare broke my leg in. Feb 2008. I was in plaster over my knee and  had pins holding it together. I could not get to the yard to see my mare for 12 weeks as I lived in a flat at the time and couldn't get down the stairs and had to be assisted by 2 strong men when I did have hospital appointments the pins in my get had to be kept clean so it was not safe to get to the yard. I paid full livery for my mare. She was quite poor when I did get to see her but had been stabled and had basic care- I think my friend struggled to do her and her two so she dropped a little. Rather than admit this she carried in telling me my mare was fine. Thankfully a little dr green in may and she was fine. I understand how sometimes life can prevent you from visiting your horses frequently....


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## zigzag (20 February 2013)

You left her at the end of December? Was she on hay and hard feed when you left? Was she fat when you left? Do you have a picture of her before you left?


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## Clippy (20 February 2013)

If your horse was turned out in bad weather, especially being a TB, surely it would cross your mind that she might need more than hay? I don't think the YO is at fault for providing more than hay, especially as you hadn't paid her in the last month.

I hope your mare makes a good recovery but I personally don't think the yard owner is at fault


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## maxapple (20 February 2013)

Just to add on the dropping condition quickly - my tb fractured his leg and had to be admitted to the vets. He has to be sedated to travel so the journey didn't help either. 

In his first full day there we just visited and gave him a oat as he was so poorly. On day 2 or 3 the vet said we could give him a little groom. They warned me he had dropped some weight but I was amazed that in 2/3 days he had gone from looking ok to a welfare case. He had jutting out hip bones, ribs clearly visible etc. 

Tbs can drop weight very quickly and it takes ages to get it back on. That might explain why one horse is ok and the other isn't. She may have been ill and just gone downhill quickly. 

All that aside, if the yo has agreed to check on your horse and knew you were mikes away, she has been negliable. She knew you weren't around to do the everyday checks so should have done them herself - and if she couldn't or wouldn't for whatever reason, she should have told you. 

Don't blame yourself. Horrid situation. And most definitely do not pay the livery.


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## touchstone (20 February 2013)

Clippy said:



			If your horse was turned out in bad weather, especially being a TB, surely it would cross your mind that she might need more than hay? I don't think the YO is at fault for providing more than hay, especially as you hadn't paid her in the last month.

I hope your mare makes a good recovery but I personally don't think the yard owner is at fault
		
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If the horse owner needed more than hay, then surely she/he should have contacted the owner and explained that, instead of saying that the horse was fine? 
Personally if the horse needed hard feed and wasn't getting it (although I think it's been far more than just a lack of hard feed for a horse to be at the collapsing stage) I couldn't have stood by and watched it suffer, bills paid or not.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

zigzag said:



			You left her at the end of December? Was she on hay and hard feed when you left? Was she fat when you left? Do you have a picture of her before you left?
		
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No hay and hard feed as the grass was ankle high in a 20 acre field. She'd been there since October and hadn't had any since then and she looked well so I thought she would be fine to continue that way. Obviously when the snow came I knew she would need hay and this was provided. Her legs were sore from the mud fever and she had lost all her shoes so I know she would have been sore, I think what has happened is she has got so sore she couldn't walk to the hay or water anymore. But my point being, if I was looking after them I would notice her not being around the others and went to investigate and informed the owner she needed the mud fever treating or a new set of shoes, which being the owner I would have been fine about. I know I was miles away, but it only takes a phone call or a text message. I don't have any pics of her before she went there, I do but they're on my old phone, she was out on loan for 2yrs until Aug last year due to financial circumstances of her loan home. She came back looking fantastic. I'll upload a pic of her though.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Here's (well hopefully) a pic of her just to show the stamp of horse she is. I actually can't look at at, knowing how bad she is now :'(

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/6770_101181853423_1151388_n.jpg


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## be positive (20 February 2013)

i hope there is a good outcome for this poor mare, there may well be an underlying reason for such a drop in condition, if she suffers from impaction colic it is possible that she has been getting colicky for some time.

The OP is in no way at fault, she has paid for livery, hay and checks, kept in regular contact and thought her horse was in good hands, it has been a dreadful winter and some weight loss was probably expected and acceptable but for the horse to be on the point of collapse is not.
As for those who say the Op should have gone to check, a 500 mile journey is hardly a trip that could be done in an afternoon , it is less than 2 months since she was there and the horse looked well. 
I currently have 2 liveries with owners that are not around, one is in South Africa for a year and a day trip to check is hardly realistic, she trusts I will care for him, the other owners are not horsey , it is their racehorse on field rest, they would not know whether he looked good or not but again trust me to take care of him, he has dropped off a bit but if he was going too far he would come in and be on full livery to enable him to pick up, not left to collapse in the mud.


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## Milkmaid (20 February 2013)

I agree with those that have said there may possibly be something else going on with your mare.  I work with cattle and quite regularly see them go from well covered & healthy to hat racks barely able to stand in a matter of days if they are seriously ill. I also had the same thing with my NF recently when he had a virus (thankfully he didn`t reach the emaciated stage before he started to respond to treatment but he dropped a HUGE amount of weight in days).  

But that said it is a rare T.B that can live out without any supplement feeding all winter as there is no real goodness in the grass over winter even if there is lots of it. On adlib haylage possibly yes, but nothing except when it snowed? I would have been questioning that? She may be now be severely deficient which has compromised her immune system? Many possibilities........has the vet taken bloods? Is the mare eating & drinking o.k now? 

The Land owner should have noticed the mare was ill/thin & not eating and got her in. She also should have informed you so you could call the vet asap.

This winter has been very hard for lots of animals and the hay/haylage hasn`t been enough where it normally is.
ETA just seen the pic, she`s a lovely mare :-(


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## Tonks (20 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			She was out on grass livery at a livery yard along with 9 or more other liveries horses. It was agreed with myself, the YO and my OH that she would check them (as we were moving to Surrey) until we could arrange to come back and get them. 

I agree it was only a grass livery as such, but as we were friends and were in a difficult situation, this was what was agreed. 

When we were there we did go and check them, but when you think you know these people you put your trust in them 

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The Welfare Act states this:

"Under the Act animal owners and keepers are under a legal duty of care for the animals for which they are responsible on a permanent or temporary basis. A person could therefore be responsible for an animal if they own it or are in charge of it. An owner has ongoing responsibility for their animal even if another person is in charge of it. A parent or guardian of a child under 16 years old is responsible for any animal that is owned or cared for by the child. This ensures that an adult can normally be identified as a person responsible for an animal. If an owner leaves an animal in the care of another person, it is the owner&#8217;s duty to ensure the keeper is competent and has the necessary authority to act in an emergency."

Make of this what you will...................and I do hope your horse is OK in the end.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Milkmaid said:



			I agree with those that have said there may possibly be something else going on with your mare.  I work with cattle and quite regularly see them go from well covered & healthy to hat racks barely able to stand in a matter of days if they are seriously ill. I also had the same thing with my NF recently when he had a virus (thankfully he didn`t reach the emaciated stage before he started to respond to treatment but he dropped a HUGE amount of weight in days).  

But that said it is a rare T.B that can live out without any supplement feeding all winter as there is no real goodness in the grass over winter even if there is lots of it. On adlib haylage possibly yes, but nothing except when it snowed? I would have been questioning that? She may be now be severely deficient which has compromised her immune system? Many possibilities........has the vet taken bloods? Is the mare eating & drinking o.k now? 

The Land owner should have noticed the mare was ill/thin & not eating and got her in. She also should have informed you so you could call the vet asap.

This winter has been very hard for lots of animals and the hay/haylage hasn`t been enough where it normally is.
ETA just seen the pic, she`s a lovely mare :-(
		
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She is eating and over drinking now which the vet said could be causing damage to her liver and kidneys. After not having food and water for so long and now having lots of it, its like a shock to the system I'd assume. Just waiting for the verdict from today, but I am already prepared for the worst.


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## crabbymare (20 February 2013)

I have several horses here that for various reasons the owners rarely visit but they are all healthy and looked after and if one looked as if it was getting a bit poor it would get extra feed even if the owner had not replied to authorise the extra cost. if someone is paying for a horse to be looked after with hay when the weather turned then the YO should have been looking more carefully at the horse as they know the owner is not in a position to visit and should have  replied to their text or email telling them the real condition of the horse a lot earlier so the option of hard feed was there. I would hate to think that an owner was not able to trust me to look after their horse and felt they had to do a 1000 mile round trip to check up on me. OP I really hope your mare is able to get some rest where she is and that although she is down its now because she is exhausted and feels safe enough to rest and recover


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## siennamum (20 February 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			OP I think you are being very harshly judged. If someone had a horse with a pro then they might very well not see it from one month to the next, that doesn't mean they should expect it not to be cared for. And this is no different. The person responsible for the horse clearly knew you were going away and that they were in charge of the horse's welfare. 

I've just retired my horse, and you know what, it was 2 months before I went to see him, and he looked great. The whole point of him being on grass livery where he is is that I don't have the time to go and see him particularly often, and I trust the person who is looking after him - and rightly so. 

I feel for you - I think people are being very very unfair. You were paying someone to do and job and they didn't do it.
		
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I agree.


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## here_i_am (20 February 2013)

So sorry for you OP. I really hope she keeps fighting & you can get her home. 
You say hay was given. Was it DEFINITELY given, or do you think the yo could have lied & just SAID she gave them hay?I wouldn't believe a word she said tbh. 
I hope you're ok xx


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## Victoria25 (20 February 2013)

Any update on your mare OP? x


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Tonks said:



			The Welfare Act states this:

"Under the Act animal owners and keepers are under a legal duty of care for the animals for which they are responsible on a permanent or temporary basis. A person could therefore be responsible for an animal if they own it or are in charge of it. An owner has ongoing responsibility for their animal even if another person is in charge of it. A parent or guardian of a child under 16 years old is responsible for any animal that is owned or cared for by the child. This ensures that an adult can normally be identified as a person responsible for an animal. If an owner leaves an animal in the care of another person, it is the owners duty to ensure the keeper is competent and has the necessary authority to act in an emergency."

Make of this what you will...................
		
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And as being a YO and a good friend they were deemed capable of looking after horses. Regular updates were sent via text message, all being well, when really, it wasn't. Yes I am liable for putting my horse there and choosing them to look after my mare. I did everything in my power to make sure she was ok, the YO didn't do everything they could to make sure my horse was ok.


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## MerrySherryRider (20 February 2013)

Our horses are out on similar pasture to yours, but I think they would have dropped weight without extra feed or hay during the winter. 

Your Tb had nothing extra except hay during the snow, I don't know what regime she had when you were around, but a lot of TB's might have struggled with that over the winter.

What instructions did you give the YO and were you confident that she would care for her and physically check her all over daily ?

I do think the YO has let your mare down badly and has failed in her duty of care, but in hindsight, during the appalling wet and cold weather we've had, you might have talked to the YO about exactly how she was being cared for on a regular basis and asked if she had dropped weight or had any lameness or infections etc.

I'm really sorry that your YO failed your horse, I know its devastating and we can all be experts after the event, so I hope you get some answers to what went wrong and that your girl fully recovers with treatment and TLC.


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## Honey08 (20 February 2013)

OP I really hope your mare pulls through this and has a good prognosis.

FWIW I would have trusted a friend and livery yard owner you were paying to let you know if something was going wrong.I've had a pony come back from a loan while I was abroad and have to go on livery for four months while I was a student and couldn't get back.  The livery YO looked after my pony perfectly while I was away.  

I would look after a friend's horse like my own if she had to move or was ill, and they would have no need to send other people to check on me or the horse..  It sounds like this YO did a vague visual check rather than a proper one. I would be very annoyed and upset in your position. 

And yes Elsiecat, I would think most people would have got what you were trying to say by now.  You've made your point several times and are probably making the OP feel rotten right now.  I'm not surprised she "threw her toys out of the cot" as you put it.  I can't actually believe she was nice enough to apologise!  Hope life never throws a curved ball at you where you have to rely on someone else.  My husband has to have an op next week, and I am out of the country for a week, so my horses are going on livery and nobody will be checking them..


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

here_i_am said:



			So sorry for you OP. I really hope she keeps fighting & you can get her home. 
You say hay was given. Was it DEFINITELY given, or do you think the yo could have lied & just SAID she gave them hay?I wouldn't believe a word she said tbh. 
I hope you're ok xx
		
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I know I asked this but my OH went to the field to get his mare and a large round bale was there. I just think shes not coped but gone un noticed which is heartbreaking  I'm kicking myself for believing she was ok, I would rather be told I made the wrong decision to retire her to the field and she would just be a horse that will always need stabling, rather than be told all is well when clearly she wasn't. YO had the cheek to say to my OH "you can't blame all this on me" so they obviously have a guilty conscience.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Victoria25 said:



			Any update on your mare OP? x
		
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Nothing yet, hoping no news is good news!


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## Big Ben (20 February 2013)

So sorry that your mare is down again, I hope that she pulls through for you.

I can't see why there is a need to heap up a pile of **** on a person who is obviously so devastated at the turn of events here. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, so easy to decide how things could of been done differently after the event

My retired mare was on pasture board for the summer, I trusted the lady she was with, and didn't go and see her, same as she is now in Arizona for 6 months and I have my mare and her donkey here. My mare came back in great condition and her donkey will go back the same way, it's what friends do.


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## MerrySherryRider (20 February 2013)

Good point Honey08. 

I suppose the bottom line is, is it acceptable to go away for a couple of months and expect that the professional employed to care for your horse does the job ?

I left mine on livery last week and luckily, I knew they'd be well looked after. Not as well as I do,  but then I've only my two to do, not a yard full.


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## Gasper (20 February 2013)

Nothing to add, OP , other than to say I really hope she pulls through and you get her home soon


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

silvershoes said:









Here's (well hopefully) a pic of her just to show the stamp of horse she is. I actually can't look at at, knowing how bad she is now :'(

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/6770_101181853423_1151388_n.jpg

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Not sure if the link has worked, but this is her a couple of years ago (not recent I know) but this is an idea of what a beautiful horse she is


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## Oscar (20 February 2013)

How many we're in the field?  It's possible she was also bullied, or chased away from the hay so she got none at all.

The y/o should have ensured all horses were able to access the hay - not just put a bale in and hope for the best.

Many people leave their horses in long term livery due to work etc, the y/o accepted duty of care so is negligent in my opinion, all they had to do was text or call and say your mare isn't coping please advise.

Fingers crossed for her to be comfortable whichever way it goes.


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## Tonks (20 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			And as being a YO and a good friend they were deemed capable of looking after horses. Regular updates were sent via text message, all being well, when really, it wasn't. Yes I am liable for putting my horse there and choosing them to look after my mare. I did everything in my power to make sure she was ok, the YO didn't do everything they could to make sure my horse was ok.
		
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As stated in my last post (which you deleated) -  I hope your horse is OK in the end.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Gasper said:



			Nothing to add, OP , other than to say I really hope she pulls through and you get her home soon 

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Thank you x


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Tonks said:



			And I did state in my last post (which you deleated) that I hope your horse is OK in the end.
		
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I haven't deleted any posts??  but thank you, I will keep you all informed


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## Honey08 (20 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			I haven't deleted any posts??  but thank you, I will keep you all informed
		
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You can't delete someone else's posts, only your own.


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## MerrySherryRider (20 February 2013)

She is very beautiful. Hopefully her previous good health will help her now, as another poster mentioned, she maybe totally exhausted and her system is trying to cope with fluids and food, so fingers and everything else crossed for her to make a good recovery.


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## OWLIE185 (20 February 2013)

Firstly I very much hope that your horse makes a speedy and full recovery.

The newly introduced animal act makes it quite clear that animal owners have certain responsibilities which includes to ensure that their animal(s) are checked daily.

It is quite possibel that your horse may have had a virus/been ill and this may have effected her.

The owner of the yard has a clear obligation and duty of care to the animals in their charge and they clearly have not been checking your horse.

I would suggest that you ask your vet to write a report on the condition you found your horse in and that you keep any photos of it.

You can then decide if you wish to persue the matter further.


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## Tonks (20 February 2013)

Honey08 said:



			You can't delete someone else's posts, only your own.
		
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Oh for goodness sake......when quoting it is very easy to edit/delete the text, as is what happened when OP quoted from me.....the end of the sentence was missing - which I commented on in my last post.

I can see this is turning into playground bickering and I am not interested in commenting again.

I do hope your horse makes a speedy recovery.

You need to get some proper legal advice considering that livery yards are unregulated and it appears you didn't have a wirtten contract in place [specifying care etc] and there may be some issues with responsbility and duty of care. 

Unless there are any posters who are equine solicitors or others who actually know the law concerning livery and welfare repsonsbilities, I don't think you'll receive much information other than criticism or sympathy.


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## Honey08 (20 February 2013)

Tonks said:



			Oh for goodness sake......when quoting it is very easy to edit/delete the text, as is what happened when OP quoted from me.....the end of the sentence was missing - which I commented on in my last post.

I can see this is turning into playground bickering and I am not interested in commenting again.

I do hope your horse makes a speedy recovery.
		
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Do stop over reacting.  You didn't say a quote was deleted, but a post, otherwise I wouldn't have put that!


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## Wagtail (20 February 2013)

So the mare lost all four shoes? She must either have been in dire need of the farrier, or been made to gallop around a great deal in the mud (possibly bullied). But foot care should have been another thing that should have been arranged for in the light of the fact that she was left there for two months. 

I was also wondering about the possibility of her having grass sickness?

I am keeping everything crossed that this poor mare makes a full recovery. I can't bear to think what she must have gone through.


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## tessybear (20 February 2013)

Having heard more of the story, i feel for you OP please ignore my first post, it sounds like you had the wool pulled over your eyes i hope for a speedy recovery for the poor girl 
x


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Oscar said:



			How many we're in the field?  It's possible she was also bullied, or chased away from the hay so she got none at all.

The y/o should have ensured all horses were able to access the hay - not just put a bale in and hope for the best.

Many people leave their horses in long term livery due to work etc, the y/o accepted duty of care so is negligent in my opinion, all they had to do was text or call and say your mare isn't coping please advise.

Fingers crossed for her to be comfortable whichever way it goes.
		
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Thank you Oscar. Yes there were others in the field, about 9 maybe a few more. There is a possiblility she was bullied, but she was usually the bullier lol! She quite fiesty and does stick up for herself so I wasn't too worried about her being bullied, more so for the other horses  but I don't know, which is making me feel worse, the fact I wasn't there to know


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## Palindrome (20 February 2013)

I am crossing fingers for your mare OP. I have been in a similar situation, although not as grave, and it's really distressing. I had to leave the country for work for a month and OH didn't drive so I put my mare on part livery. She had been at that yard for a year on grass livery in a large field with the YO's broodmares and I trusted the YO. I came back a day earlier than what I said to a poor ribby little mare in a tiny overcrowded paddock that acted like she had not seen hay for a month, needed a bucket of hard feed to be caught (and couldn't get past the big cobs bully who also wanted the food) and a disgusting stable. I was very fortunate that it was summer so she hadn't gone downhill too much. Although the YO clearly knew she hadn't cared properly for the mare and said I didn't need to pay the remaining money, I was stupid enough to insist and give it to her (not sure why, I just wanted to be done with it and move the mare asap).
The yard is respectable in every aspect, it's a small family type DIY livery and the YO is still in business. I still don't know why they failed to care for my mare.


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## Noodles_3 (20 February 2013)

I think some people have been very unfair on you Op in earlier stages of your thread but it seems more people completely understand it wasn't your fault, which it totally wasn't. 

If you'd just left her at a random livery then yes it would be but you left her with a trusted 'friend'! Some people must live perfect lives  you honestly have to trust people sometimes in life in your case you did and most people would of done. Anyway I'm just covering old ground but I just want to say I really hope your mare pulls through, it's such a sad story 

Take care and keep us updated. X


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## hihosilver (20 February 2013)

The main thing is your mare pulls through. I would not pay the bill.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Noodles_3 said:



			I think some people have been very unfair on you Op in earlier stages of your thread but it seems more people completely understand it wasn't your fault, which it totally wasn't. 

If you'd just left her at a random livery then yes it would be but you left her with a trusted 'friend'! Some people must live perfect lives  you honestly have to trust people sometimes in life in your case you did and most people would of done. Anyway I'm just covering old ground but I just want to say I really hope your mare pulls through, it's such a sad story 

Take care and keep us updated. X
		
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Thank you for your supporting comments! 

Just so everyone knows I havent come on here for sympathy in any way or to make myself feel better by everyone blaming the YO I just wanted to confirm my opinion and know where I stand so I know I have a case to take things further. Had some really useful advice and contacts so now I can just concentrate on getting her better and getting her home x


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## Doublethyme (20 February 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			OP I think you are being very harshly judged. If someone had a horse with a pro then they might very well not see it from one month to the next, that doesn't mean they should expect it not to be cared for. And this is no different. The person responsible for the horse clearly knew you were going away and that they were in charge of the horse's welfare. 

I've just retired my horse, and you know what, it was 2 months before I went to see him, and he looked great. The whole point of him being on grass livery where he is is that I don't have the time to go and see him particularly often, and I trust the person who is looking after him - and rightly so. 

I feel for you - I think people are being very very unfair. You were paying someone to do and job and they didn't do it.
		
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^^This.     I feel very sorry for you OP and your little mare.    I hope she pulls through, although think if it was me I would move heaven and earth to drive the 500 miles now to be with her before its too late, even it was just to say goodbye 

I looked after a friend's two horses for 2-3 weeks when she relocated to another part of the country.    I wasn't paid, she was my friend, but I treated them like my own and I would have been devastated if she didn't feel she could trust me and that the horses wouldn't have the best of care.

If I was PAYING someone, I would right now be planning to take them to the cleaners.   

For anyone, no matter the circumstances, to willfully ignore a horse in suffering, particularly anyone that runs a livery yard, is unforgivable.


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## touchstone (20 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			Thank you for your supporting comments! 

Just so everyone knows I havent come on here for sympathy in any way or to make myself feel better by everyone blaming the YO I just wanted to confirm my opinion and know where I stand so I know I have a case to take things further. Had some really useful advice and contacts so now I can just concentrate on getting her better and getting her home x
		
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Good luck op, I hope you get your mare well and home soon and any further action is sucessful. x


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## pootleperkin (20 February 2013)

Yes, good luck SS - I too would be devastated if I had left my horses with a professional YO, and friend to boot, then found one of them in this state without the YO having the decency to own up to what was going on. Terrible.

Everything crossed that she pulls through x


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## diamonddogs (20 February 2013)

Just putting a few words of support for you too, OP.

I had tears in my eyes and a lump in my throat when I read your post, and even more tears in my eyes at some of the comments you've had to endure.

I so hope your little mare comes through this - she sounds like a fighter, and she'll need everything she's got 

FWIW if I was in your position I wouldn't have done anything differently because a) I'd left her with someone I believed I could trust and b) the updates were encouraging.

And if anyone I considered a friend had asked me to look after their horse and sent someone else to check up on me without my knowledge I'd have been decidedly miffed.

You did nothing wrong other than put your trust in the wrong person, and how many among us can say they wouldn't have done the same?


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## Fellewell (20 February 2013)

millitiger said:



			Only if you are old enough to have grandfather rights actually 

And why should she need transport available at all times because she is livery yard owner??
		
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C1.......actually. If the OP has a lorry she may as well drive it.

You must ride your horse everywhere, how eco-friendly, well done you


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## julie111 (20 February 2013)

I hope she soon gets better, I would be inclined to think there could be an underlying condition that has pulled her down. Is the vet doing any tests?


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## Fellewell (20 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			Not when I'm only 23. I'm currently arranging to go through my HGV so it will be sorted. Its annoying as I can drive it, but just not legally! However if I knew she was in such a bad way I'd have risked the trip to go and get her!
		
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LGV on your licence would be a good investment I'd say. Good Luck.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Fellewell said:



			C1.......actually. If the OP has a lorry she may as well drive it.

You must ride your horse everywhere, how eco-friendly, well done you

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I may as well but not legally! I'm 23 so grandfather rights dont apply to me. It does cost quite a lot to go through a HGV, and by the looks of things it will be a while yet with all the vets bills heading my way. 

This post has nothing to do with whether I can drive a lorry or not anyway, I have someone who can drive us in the meantime so its irrelevant.


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## Elsiecat (20 February 2013)

Why's this become a discussion regarding licenses? 
I'm not responding to any comment aimed at me as I really didn't intend to draw any attention away from the mare and I did go on to justify what I meant. 
How is she OP?


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## Fellewell (20 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			Yeah if it was 5mins down the road I would be there every day, but when its 500 miles its slightly different. I left December, thats when I last saw her. Then we had all the snow so we werent able to go, plus neither of us drive the lorry so we had to wait for our friend to be available and have the time off work. 

So believe me if I had a sooner opportunity to go we would of. But thanks for sending my guilt trip on an even bigger trip.
		
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The lorry was entirely relevant in this post. Just being practical.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Elsiecat said:



			Why's this become a discussion regarding licenses? 
I'm not responding to any comment aimed at me as I really didn't intend to draw any attention away from the mare and I did go on to justify what I meant. 
How is she OP?
		
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Exactly what I was thinking! 

Haven't heard anything yet so I'm hoping no news is good news. Vet is due out today so just waiting to hear. I'm at work and OH is at home taking the phone calls and updating me so its just a waiting game unfortunately  got everything crossed for her, I know she'll be exhausted but she's a fighter, just hope she hasn't given up already


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## Elsiecat (20 February 2013)

No, as you say, no news is usually good news. Could you not get a train to her or something?


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Fellewell said:



			The lorry was entirely relevant in this post. Just being practical.
		
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So was the YOs ability to care for an animal under their roof. Being practical would have been informing the horses owner of her condition.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Elsiecat said:



			No, as you say, no news is usually good news. Could you not get a train to her or something?
		
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I could drive, get the train, swim, run, walk if I could! But having to pay for her bedding, feed, medication plus having vets bills on the way things are tight. I run a livery yard here so have to think that £100 petrol could be £100 worth of haylage or feed for the horses we have here. I know people are saying if it was their horse they would drop everything and go but if it was so simple as that I would have gone by now


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## zigzag (20 February 2013)

Sounds as if she prob needed her feet doing just before owner left her... six weeks to have all four shoes off, sounds like they needed doing before she left.. also just because the field was ankle deep in grass, it has no nutritional value at that time of year really, I would have been feeding hay (or offering it) in November.  Feel there is fault on both sides, some with owner, mainly with YO


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Her feet were done not long before she went out but obviously the mud pulled them off.


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## Elsiecat (20 February 2013)

You've misinterpreted me, I wasn't suggested you roller blade there down the m6, I was just asking if you could go. I know I'd be devastated if I didn't get to say goodbye and I was just wondering if it was possible for you to visit just incase something was to happen.


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## 1stclassalan (20 February 2013)

I've heard of a guy taking all the money sent to pay a mortgage straight down to a casino and losing it all - then trying to sell the house and steal the money but watching a horse you are supposed to be looking after is a new one! 

While my mare was still owner by a school and was used as a school mistress, I walked out to the hallowed arena surface and promised her rider that if he hit her again, I would pull him down and beat him to a pulp. I did this for a horse I had no connection with other than I could see it being abused - I'm having a hard job containing my anger just reading the O.P. 

I can't believe some of the posts on here blaming the owner! Fair minded people DO NOT suspect their friendly livery yard owner who is being PAID to look after said mare to fail so miserably in the first duty and compound the failings by false reports.

On yards where I've been - the owner has looked after horses abandoned by liveries for months before offering them for sale and personally attended grooming etc., I have helped any  number of horses over the years and can't believe what I'm reading!


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## Chestnuttymare (20 February 2013)

1stclassalan said:



			I've heard of a guy taking all the money sent to pay a mortgage straight down to a casino and losing it all - then trying to sell the house and steal the money but watching a horse you are supposed to be looking after is a new one! 

While my mare was still owner by a school and was used as a school mistress, I walked out to the hallowed arena surface and promised her rider that if he hit her again, I would pull him down and beat him to a pulp. I did this for a horse I had no connection with other than I could see it being abused - I'm having a hard job containing my anger just reading the O.P. 

I can't believe some of the posts on here blaming the owner! Fair minded people DO NOT suspect their friendly livery yard owner who is being PAID to look after said mare to fail so miserably in the first duty and compound the failings by false reports.

On yards where I've been - the owner has looked after horses abandoned by liveries for months before offering them for sale and personally attended grooming etc., I have helped any  number of horses over the years and can't believe what I'm reading!
		
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^^^^^this. If i had left a horse with a friend and was also paying for it to be looked after, i wouldn't have been worried, especially if i was getting regular updates to say she is doing ok. OP is having a hard enough time with this i am sure. I don't think she is to blame, i think the 'friend' who was paid to care for the mare failed her miserably! The main thing now is that the wee horse gets well.


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## DragonSlayer (20 February 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			Look at it in a different light and then consider the answer.

If the OP had been too ill to care for the mare and had placed the horse in the hands of a friend who was both paid and trusted to care for the horse would so many of you being blaming the OP for the situation ?

Of course not, we would all be wishing the OP a speedy recovery and hoping she can enjoy her horse again.

Regardless of the reason, be it a long distance move, illness, work commitments etc, the OP paid and trusted a friend to care for the horse.

I hope the horse recovers OP, and if I had been in your situation and my horse had ended up like that I would have knocked the friends teeth down her throat !
		
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This absolutely.

If the 'friend' had had anything about them as a livery yard owner, the weight loss would have been noticed, and the call made to suggest the horse is needing something a little bit extra, thus financial renumeration would have been agreed upon as well.

The fault lies with the YO/'friend' in my book. You paid for a service, if they had been doing the job correctly, then they would have seen issues early on, and it would have been dealt with.

When I had liveries, if I saw problems, I told the owners, it was then dealt with. Certainly NOT ignored and swept under the carpet!

Don't blame yourself OP, I would certainly be looking for legal advice....


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## HorsesHavingFun (20 February 2013)

How awful


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## ellie11987 (20 February 2013)

How awful and disgusting  

my thoughts go with you and your mare. Hope she makes a full recovery x


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## patchwork puzzle (20 February 2013)

I would also like to add that I don't think it is your fault at all OP.
Just as others have said, you paid a livery yard owner to care for your horse, you had arranged that she were to make sure she was ok and to make sure she had hay etc, and to top it off, the YO was also your friend. It is awful that this person was reporting to you that your mare was fine, when she very obviously either hadn't checked or didn't care. To be quite honest, even if the situation had been different, and the YO hadn't specifically been asked to care for the horse, why on earth was she saying she was ok, it is a blatant lie. If somebody asked me how their horse was doing (for whatever reason) I wouldn't just say 'Oh she looks fine', if I hadn't checked!
 I feel disgusted at this person and in my mind you have nothing at all to feel guilty of.
 I really hope your little mare pulls through.


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## Elsiecat (20 February 2013)

Has anyone heard anything? Been a while now


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## cheeryplatypus (20 February 2013)

Poor you and poor mare.
I'd be livid.  You at least should have been told she was having problems.
Hope she pulls through.


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## Twinkley Lights (20 February 2013)

DragonSlayer said:



			This absolutely.

If the 'friend' had had anything about them as a livery yard owner, the weight loss would have been noticed, and the call made to suggest the horse is needing something a little bit extra, thus financial renumeration would have been agreed upon as well.

The fault lies with the YO/'friend' in my book. You paid for a service, if they had been doing the job correctly, then they would have seen issues early on, and it would have been dealt with.

When I had liveries, if I saw problems, I told the owners, it was then dealt with. Certainly NOT ignored and swept under the carpet!

Don't blame yourself OP, I would certainly be looking for legal advice....
		
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This^^^ good luck with your little mare op bless her and everything crossed that she pulls thu. I had a similar situation when I moved and had to leave my boy for a month which nearly killed me.  He sent me picture messages by text clever boy and arrived in fantastic condition , shampooed and clipped and happy - so sad all yard owners are not like my old one


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## Equilibrium Ireland (20 February 2013)

OP I'm very sorry for what's happened to your mare. As far as hay being put out it probably wasn't enough and not of good quality. 

As far as naysayers, you do know there's actually people in the world that are in full time care not from the owner. I have a gelding here that the owner has seen twice. Her Neice lives next door and has seen him twice. I send pictures and talk to the owner. I do exactly what I get paid for. She trusts me and I would never take money for the care of a horse and not do as such. First and foremost I care about them too much. People do this all over the world everyday. Pay for the care of horses and don't see them often. It's not crazy. You pay for services and expect people to do the right thing. 

My husband and I looked around at a few places last year for the horses so we could go back to the States and make the money faster to get them home. Sadly I just plain out refused as I really found no one I could possibly trust. As I said to my husband we'd be paying people to neglect our horses. Them chucked out in a muddy field probably with no rugs and very little to eat while telling me on the phone all is well. The only time we'd know of issues is when it was time to do paperwork for shipping. So I decided its better to stay longer. I will not trust people with my horses. I don't care how jaded that is. I sent one away for jumper training and went to see her everyday. I even packed meals for her a few days at a time. She was losing weight and I was upping feed. Funny how when I showed up at feeding one morning all the other horses had my mare's food. Obviously things didn't end well. People suck. 

Don't beat yourself up OP. People really do suck. I don't know why people do this but it does not make you a bad owner. You were paying for a service and got screwed. Unfortunately your horse ended up the victim. Hugs to you. 

Terri


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## Reacher (20 February 2013)

I hope your mare makes a full recovery - please keep us update as to her progress


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Update for you all. 

Unfortunately she has fought her last battle and has had to be PTS. She had a reaction to all the drugs she has had and was no longer able to fight. I feel totally empty inside and wish I could have done more and especially been there for her during her last hours. RIP and sleep tight my gorgeous little Silver Shoes xxxxx


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## Ouch05 (20 February 2013)

Am I missing something as I only read through the first 3 pages but you owe the YO 3 months livery. So actually you were not paying some one to look after your horse but left your horse there with no forward payment.

Yes wrong of the YO to not give more hay, very wrong of you for not going to see her and yes we have had snow but not solid for 3 months. I managed to get from Lincoln to Plymouth to Kent and back over Christmas break.

That said I hope you mare is OK


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## Elsiecat (20 February 2013)

I had a feeling when we hadn't heard in so long  poor girl x


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## lme (20 February 2013)

OP, I think you have a right to Be upset. My old mare is on full grass livery. When she started to lose condition this winter (she was out 24 x 7 with haylage & daily hard feed) my yard owner told me that she wasn't coping & needed to come in. We worked out a plan B & my mare is now picking up. I don't get to the yard every day & trust my yard owner to tell me if anything is wrong, as yours should have done.


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## silvershoes (20 February 2013)

Am I missing something as I only read through the first 3 pages but you owe the YO 3 months livery

You obviously read wrong as we owed her 1 month. It was agreed the bill would be paid in full when we collected them. Anyway its totally irrelevant now as she has lost her battle and has been PTS. Disgusting what people can do over meaningless money.


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## Caol Ila (20 February 2013)

Very sorry to hear that.  Poor mare and poor you.  RIP little mare.


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## Black_Horse_White (20 February 2013)

I've read all the pages but haven't commented until now. Would just like to say I'm so very sorry that you've lost your girl. I would like to give you a very big hug. Rest in peace Silver shoes, it's a shame you had to suffer due to the neglect of the YO. OP please don't let them get away with this, animal suffering is unexceptable xx


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## Equilibrium Ireland (20 February 2013)

I'm so sorry OP. How devastating. I also go a few weeks at a time without getting paid by clients. These are long term clients or I wouldn't do this. But I never ever consider stop feeding the horse in between payments. I'm never left without long and if I needed it ASAP they would send it. Not uncommon to pay a balance at pick up.

People can we please just be a little nicer. OP just lost her mare because some asshat did not take care of her as paid to do. 

Terri


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## Archangel (20 February 2013)

I'm very sorry you lost your mare, absolutely tragic.


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## be positive (20 February 2013)

So sorry

As for those that still seem to think this is somehow the fault of the OP, whether she owed 1 month 3 months or 6 months if this is due to neglect and not acute grass sickness or something similar, although it would still be hard to justify not getting a vet , there is no excuse for what has happened to this horse, the duty of care is with the YO, the OPs only mistake was trusting the wrong person.

RIP Silver Shoes


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## Asha (20 February 2013)

What tragic circumstances to lose a horse. Very sorry for you silvershoes.

Dont feel guilty, this isnt your fault.


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## stencilface (20 February 2013)

Sorry to hear about your mare OP . Not much consolation, but at least she is no longer suffering 

Really hope you can get a resolution with the yo one way or another, if a friend left a horse with me, I'd care for it better than my own most likely!  

Nothing to add except to offer a slobbery kiss from my dog and a whiskery face wuffle from my horse


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## patchwork puzzle (20 February 2013)

Im so so sorry your poor Silver Shoes lost her battle.
 Please ignore any negative posts, some people dont know when to be quiet.
 Hugs for you and


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## meesha (20 February 2013)

so, so sorry to hear about your mare ((hugs))


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## Bubbles (20 February 2013)

Poor horse and poor you  your trust in your friend was misplaced, we've all been there. I came back from a holiday to find my precious mare had laminitis, had it for a week, two of my dearest friends trusted to look after her genuinely didn't think she was anything other than stiff. And one had a degree in eq science! Send pictures to the RSPCA, WHW.Sorry for your sad loss


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## Ouch05 (20 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			Am I missing something as I only read through the first 3 pages but you owe the YO 3 months livery

You obviously read wrong as we owed her 1 month. It was agreed the bill would be paid in full when we collected them. Anyway its totally irrelevant now as she has lost her battle and has been PTS. Disgusting what people can do over meaningless money.
		
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I am sorry we crossed posted. I am very sorry for your loss


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## Littlelegs (20 February 2013)

Really sorry to read the update. I haven't commented so far as I didn't have anything useful to add. But please keep all records op & pursue the yo so 'it' doesn't get chance to do the same to another horse. Even if a horse is effectively dumped on a financially strapped yo, the least they could do is involve a charity rather than letting the horse suffer. Not saying at all that's what you did op, just making the point that regardless of whether you owe livery or left shoes overdue etc, the yo has failed completely in her duty of care.


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## Fluffy bunny (20 February 2013)

Im so sorry to hear this silvershoes, you must be devastated.  Please try not to beat yourself up, you did what you thought was right at the time. She is beyond pain and suffering now xx


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## EllenJay (20 February 2013)

So sorry for your loss. xx


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## browbrow (20 February 2013)

Sorry silvershoes   that your horse didn't make it 

To summarise I would say the best thing you can do now is move on

This was a horse, by owners account, a typical TB was left out 24/7 in the snow on grass livery and was to be checked by YO and given hay and I doubt the 20 acre paddock was knee deep in grass at this time of year - that's NOT enough for a typical silly TB that is prone to colic so it wasn't a good solution for a horse that is such high maintenance. The other horse was ok - so YO doing something right. The law states its an OWNERS responsibility to look after a horse's welfare - all these dreamers on here banging on about YO this that and the other take em to court blah blah blah. I am thinking if you didn't have the money to asap pay for additional private transport to take the two horses to your new 500 mile away new home which would have been about 600 quid max, you wont have thousands to spend on legal fees. save yourself more heartache and just grieve for your loss and look forward.

Ignore all the duty of care yard owner crap on here, you have no leg to stand on in a court of law. 

So sorry for your outcome - you don't need to think about the what's if's now  - what's done is done. Deal with your awful loss and think of the good times and maybe look at this situ in a positive one  - that you wont do this to fellow owners that you take on as customers and write something in your contract that says each livery MUST see to their horses each day or put measures in place to ensure this happens etc......

again RIP to your mare and I do hope your new venture goes well.


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## doriangrey (20 February 2013)

So sorry Silvershoes


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## touchstone (20 February 2013)

A no win no fee solicitor will often take on cases if the claim is over £5,000, and  fees may be covered on a household contents policy.  
The free BHS helpline is the best bet rather than arbitrary opinions on a forum.

OP I am truly sorry to hear about your mare.


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## russianhorse (20 February 2013)

Oh Silvershoes, Im so so sorry to hear of the loss of your gorgeous mare

FWIW, you did nothing wrong at all.  I moved from Surrey to Peterborough and left my lad on grass livery for a couple of months, where he had been on DIY for several years.  The YO offered to look after him, I had no reason to disbelieve her and when I picked him up (he'd had the winter roughing it out) he was a picture of health.

I was entrusted with my friends horses over the whole xmas period, and I looked after them (for free) better than I did my own

If I was you, I wouldnt be paying the outstanding livery and would be looking into legal action.  What she did was down and out neglect

RIP and run free little mare xx


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## diamonddogs (20 February 2013)

OMG I felt like I'd been punched when I read this.

Your poor poor little girl. I felt bad enough when my mare died suddenly after a short illness so I can't even begin to imagine how you must feel knowing you had yours stolen from you through willful neglect.

I'm sure your feeling numb right now, so before your loss hits you properly get things moving to get this "friend" of yours everything she deserves (take that however you like).

Honestly, I'm shaking with anger on your behalf, and shedding a few tears for your poor girl.

Run free, little girl. Nobody can hurt you ever again.

xxx


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## Nitro mouse (20 February 2013)

I am so so sorry for your loss,  please don't beat yourself up over this. You put your trust in someone and they have badly let you down. I hope your other horse is okay and you will get him/her home soon xxx big hugs....


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## Norfolk Pie (20 February 2013)

So sorry to see this. nothing to add that hasn't already been said, can totally understand that you trusted yard owner - if i had a horse here on grass livery but knew the owners (best friend or worst enemy) were not able to check daily, I would do it. It's a basic obligation for any animal, certainly a domesticated one. If it needed hay or feed, I would contact owners. If they said no? I'd call a welfare centre, and feed it myself. We can all make mistakes - I'd like to assume that there was something underlying, and your friend may have been a little unobservant for 48 hours, but not 8 weeks.  Im sure no one foresaw something so tragic, but I wouldn't be paying livery until its been established. Life can be so rubbish sometimes.  RIP little horse


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## Tormenta (20 February 2013)

I'm so sorry you have lost her.

YO, friend or whatever she has a duty of care surely as to what unfolded on her own land. She neglected to do at least one of many things she could have done when this mare started to go downhill. Money owing or no money owing, I as a horse lover would not and could not have let an animal suffer like this no matter if the owner hadn't made an appearance for eternity and never paid a penny! I fed two geldings for 6 months for nothing, owner never visited and avoided me until I finally managed to track them down and get them moved. Very sad situation, especially for the mare.


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## Oscar (20 February 2013)

So sorry for your loss - at least she is at peace now. The Y/O should be ashamed.

God bless xx


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## ozpoz (20 February 2013)

I am so sorry you have lost your mare.
(I am incredulous at some posts, too - if the owner has made arrangements for someone too look after their horse and is kept updated, how can they be at fault?
I heard of a case locally only yesterday, of a horse being in full livery and returned to the owner starved. Unacceptable.)


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## maccachic (20 February 2013)

Sorry to hear the update you need a big hug you poor thing.

I hope none of the negative posters every go away on holiday, get sick or have a sudden change of circumstances and have to rely on someone else, they are really out of line and hindsight is an horrible thing sometimes.


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## Chestnuttymare (20 February 2013)

Oh no I am so terribly sorry. xxx


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## Noodles_3 (20 February 2013)

Oh I'm so sorry to hear this  bless you. Massive hugs xxxx

Rip silver shoes  xxxx


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## pizzi (20 February 2013)

Sorry to hear about your poor mare. I was in the position where I couldn't see mine for 3 months. Left in the care of a friend. Paid her a fortune to keep up the feeding etc. 
Mare didn't do well, she was put out on literally, a starvation paddock- idiot!

Mine pulled through but has long term problems. No-one knows what is round the corner and sometimes situations take over. Some people can't help themselves when it comes to pointing the finger. Might make them feel superior-who knows. Doen't change the fact you have lost your mare.


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## blacksabbeth (20 February 2013)

OP I have just read all comments and I feel for you 100% and very sorry for your loss,all I can say is shes at peace and has no more suffering.R.i.p little girly and run free.xx


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## Fjord (20 February 2013)

I am so sorry for your loss, in such awful circumstances.


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## E13 (20 February 2013)

I am so sorry. Not your fault, ignore the negative comments, you had an agreement and YO is at fault. *hugs*


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## HappyHooves (20 February 2013)

I don't know which makes me sadder - the news of the death of a much treasured horse or the reaction of some on this thread.


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## diamonddogs (20 February 2013)

browbrow said:



			Sorry silvershoes   that your horse didn't make it 

To summarise I would say the best thing you can do now is move on

This was a horse, by owners account, a typical TB was left out 24/7 in the snow on grass livery and was to be checked by YO and given hay and I doubt the 20 acre paddock was knee deep in grass at this time of year - that's NOT enough for a typical silly TB that is prone to colic so it wasn't a good solution for a horse that is such high maintenance. The other horse was ok - so YO doing something right. The law states its an OWNERS responsibility to look after a horse's welfare - all these dreamers on here banging on about YO this that and the other take em to court blah blah blah. I am thinking if you didn't have the money to asap pay for additional private transport to take the two horses to your new 500 mile away new home which would have been about 600 quid max, you wont have thousands to spend on legal fees. save yourself more heartache and just grieve for your loss and look forward.

Ignore all the duty of care yard owner crap on here, you have no leg to stand on in a court of law. 

So sorry for your outcome - you don't need to think about the what's if's now  - what's done is done. Deal with your awful loss and think of the good times and maybe look at this situ in a positive one  - that you wont do this to fellow owners that you take on as customers and write something in your contract that says each livery MUST see to their horses each day or put measures in place to ensure this happens etc......

again RIP to your mare and I do hope your new venture goes well.
		
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And I think you should go away and take your Animal Act quotes with you instead of coming here making inappropriate comments. The poor woman's just lost her horse in case you hadn't noticed 

I think we should call a halt now to all this crap about what SS should have done. Whichever side of the fence you sit on, the poor girl's lost her horse under the worst possible circumstances and she needs our understanding now, not yet more recriminations. It'll take her a long time to get over this, if she ever does, and she'll deal with her grief in her own way, so for god's sake, lay off her now.


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## Colivet (20 February 2013)

HappyHooves said:



			I don't know which makes me sadder - the news of the death of a much treasured horse or the reaction of some on this thread.
		
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you literally just beat me to this comment - I was about to say something very similar.

Big hugs Silvershoes.

Big shame to the self righteous, smug, perfect people who showed little regard for what you were going through.


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## kirstyl (20 February 2013)

So sorry to hear that your girl hasn't pulled through. I am both disgusted and extremely sad at the negative comments on here. I hope you can move on in time and know that the horses you keep at your yard won't ever be in the position yours was in. Best wishes ...


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## BigBuck's (20 February 2013)

So sorry to hear your beautiful girl lost her fight, SS.


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## Tiffany (20 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			Update for you all. 

Unfortunately she has fought her last battle and has had to be PTS. She had a reaction to all the drugs she has had and was no longer able to fight. I feel totally empty inside and wish I could have done more and especially been there for her during her last hours. RIP and sleep tight my gorgeous little Silver Shoes xxxxx
		
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Really sorry your mare lost her fight for life


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## Tiffany (20 February 2013)

If I had a horse on grass livery and it was losing condition I would ring owner to let them know and explain that their horse needed more feed and/or bringing in. The extra cost could be added to owners bill. I certainly wouldn't leave a horse and do nothing knowing it wasn't doing well


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## Amaranta (20 February 2013)

browbrow said:



			Sorry silvershoes   that your horse didn't make it 

To summarise I would say the best thing you can do now is move on

This was a horse, by owners account, a typical TB was left out 24/7 in the snow on grass livery and was to be checked by YO and given hay and I doubt the 20 acre paddock was knee deep in grass at this time of year - that's NOT enough for a typical silly TB that is prone to colic so it wasn't a good solution for a horse that is such high maintenance. The other horse was ok - so YO doing something right. The law states its an OWNERS responsibility to look after a horse's welfare - all these dreamers on here banging on about YO this that and the other take em to court blah blah blah. I am thinking if you didn't have the money to asap pay for additional private transport to take the two horses to your new 500 mile away new home which would have been about 600 quid max, you wont have thousands to spend on legal fees. save yourself more heartache and just grieve for your loss and look forward.

Ignore all the duty of care yard owner crap on here, you have no leg to stand on in a court of law. 

So sorry for your outcome - you don't need to think about the what's if's now  - what's done is done. Deal with your awful loss and think of the good times and maybe look at this situ in a positive one  - that you wont do this to fellow owners that you take on as customers and write something in your contract that says each livery MUST see to their horses each day or put measures in place to ensure this happens etc......

again RIP to your mare and I do hope your new venture goes well.
		
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Would you like some compassion with the salt you seem determined to rub into an open wound?

Silvershoes I am so sorry for your loss x


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## scheherazade (21 February 2013)

So sorry for your loss. Please don't take the negative comments to heart. I hope you will be able to move on from this in time xx


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## Oldenburg27 (21 February 2013)

I am So so so sorry you lost your mare R.I.P Girly 

I am disgusted by some of the poster's on this forum..

Op it was not your fault you left your horse in the care of someone you trusted and they let you down and your mare... 

So sorry sending you lost of hugs x x


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## Ellen Durow (21 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			I have a TB mare that was on grass livery at a yard in Wales where I used to live. I have recently moved to Surrey and due to only having room for 3 horses on our lorry when moving down my mare and my OH's mare stayed on livery there until we could travel back to get them. 

So to cut a long story sideways...my OH went to get them at the weekend, only to find my mare in such a state she was too weak to travel back on the lorry. He phoned me crying at the state she was in, I have seen pictures as I was unable to go back with them as I was looking after the yard at home. She is a walking skeleton :'( well, barely able to walk, she was dehydrated and basically ready to give up. I have seen rescue cases and she is by far the worst I have ever seen, every bone and every rib, so upsetting just thinking about it.

She was moved to a friends yard just 2mins down the road to get her back on the mend for a few weeks until she was stronger to last the journey. Only yesterday she took a turn for the worst and colapsed outside her stable and after several attempts to get her up (4 men and a tractor) she wouldn't  I was given those awful words that PTS would be best for her. I gave the vet the go ahead as, even my little superstar I've had for 9yrs, I would never want to see her suffer, she doesnt deserve it. The vet went to give her the injection and from no where, she found the strength to get up! She is a fighter and always has been and I know she can pull through. Just taking each day at a time. 

I just can't believe that someone I thought I trusted, someone I once called a friend could let a horse get in to such a state. An owner of a livery yard, someone you are meant to trust to look after your horse!? So angry at myself for trusting someone after being told for so long they were both fine and looking well, just can't put in to words how devestated I am for my horse. Its disgusting to think that people can call themselves horse lovers yet ignore the fact a horse under their nose is literally dying. Is this neglect? I just want to know where I stand. 

I dread to think if we hadn't gone to get her when we did she would have been found dead in the field  we owe them a months livery and tbh I am extremely reluctant to give it to them! If anything, they're getting my vets bills!

But for now I just want my little girl to get better 

Click to expand...

If the yard is registered with BHS I would report the case to them and if the yard is licensed report it to the local authority


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## Marydoll (21 February 2013)

horserider said:



			Good point Honey08. 

I suppose the bottom line is, is it acceptable to go away for a couple of months and expect that the professional employed to care for your horse does the job ?

I left mine on livery last week and luckily, I knew they'd be well looked after. Not as well as I do,  but then I've only my two to do, not a yard full.
		
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If money is changing hands for care from a professional then it should be given, if for any reason the horse needs more, the responsible person employed to care for the horse should address it and inform the owners there will be extra charges Even at grass livery if agreed, id expect the yo to check the horse over, clearly they havent.
OP im so sorry for your loss id report them to whw and the local authorites, the only thing you did wrong was trusting theyd fulfil your contract


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## risky business (21 February 2013)

Read the whole thread and I'm truely sorry for your loss  what an awfully sad set of circumstances, I think your YO completely neglected her duty to care here.. If I was paying my YO to look after my horse I'd trust they'd do the job.. A very harsh lesson learnt. 

Some comments have shocked me I can't quote but browbrow I think your out of line.. The OP has just lost their horse and most of your post was unnecessary at best!


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## Gasper (21 February 2013)

So so sorry to read your news this morning,  what a difficult situation for you to come to terms with.  Big hugs from us.

How is the other mare ?


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## rockysmum (21 February 2013)

I am so sorry for your loss OP, very tragic circumstances, RIP little girl.

And to the posters who do not blame the YO, think about your comments the next time you go away for a holiday.  I hope your YO is more responsible.

I know this took place over a couple of months, but something equally devastating could happen in a couple of weeks or even days.  What if your horse was injured and not checked, it could easily die in that time without care.  Would you think that was your own responsibility and nothing to do with the YO. I dont think so. 

I didn't think it was possible but this forum is getting worse.  Glad I dont know some of you in real life.  Perhaps the YO has friends on here, I expect this wont do her business any good.


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## Beentheredonethat (21 February 2013)

So very sorry for your loss. So tragic.


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## Booboos (21 February 2013)

I am so sorry, what a sad end to her life, but if you can think of the good times you had together.


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## hairycob (21 February 2013)

Op, so srry. Now go away & repeat 100 times "It was not my fault. I did everything I could".
Some of the posters this thread have been unbelievably unthinking & cruel & do not deserve a second thought from you. It's so easy for some people to hide their real nature until they think you won't notice.


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## noblesteed (21 February 2013)

SO sorry to hear about your loss OP.
You left your horse with someone you trusted, you were paying for services which they offered to you. They lied to you about your horse being OK, but were happy enough to take your money. Your poor horse has paid for the YOs negligence with her life. 
I would be seeking to take things further, because the YO is obviously incapable of looking after the horses in her care, and so the same thing could happen to someone else's horse.
I know a little about how you feel because when I had my baby I left my horse on loan to a girl, at the yard I rented with a friend - friend promised me she would keep an eye on him. I still went up twice a week to see him. One day I put his grass muzzle on and 5 days later I went up and found it removed and poor horse hobbling with laminitis. My 'friend' had decided the muzzle 'didn't work' and rather than ring me to tell me it needed adjusting she took it off. Farrier said if he'd been left another day it would have been a different story altogether. Thankfully he is ok at his new yard though will always be a lami risk now, and though he's for sale no-one will touch him with a barge pole.

To all the nasty people who have been so cruel to the OP, I only hope you never find yourselves in a position to have to leave your horses in the care of someone else. Even for a few days - it only took 5 days for my horse to become ill! FOr whatever reason - illness, injury, holiday, relocation, pregnancy, breaking in, stud, retirement, loaning etc sometimes we DO have to ask someone else to care for our horses. That's no excuse for them to be subjected to cruelty and neglect!


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## hackedoff (21 February 2013)

So sorry to read about what happened and your sad loss.

Y/O does have a duty of care I know of one who was successfully prosecuted when inadequate fencing lead to a pound death and another who was taken through the small claims court for failure to meet the terms of contract with liveries, that is to carry out what the y/o was paid to do. The trouble with the horse world is that too many people in business in it feel they should be exempt from the rules that apply to any other business and worst still their customers accept this!


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## Coblover63 (21 February 2013)

I am so very sorry for your loss, Silvershoes.  I look after ("grass livery" effectively) a pony for a lady who had to take a considerable amount of time out from coming to see her but I did take responsibility during that time and kept said pony well fed, wormed, feet trimmed, etc.  It doesn't take hours to thrown out some hay and keep any eye on their general wellbeing.  

We also live opposite a field of racehorse brood mares who live out naked through the winter, heavily pregnant.  They are checked daily and never run out of haylage and they are all absolutely fine and happy, pootling or hooning around as the mood takes them.  It sounds to me that it was just a lack of decent forage that caused the end of your mare.  As I said, I'm so sorry for your loss xx


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## Ibblebibble (21 February 2013)

so sorry for your loss SS


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## Snowy Celandine (21 February 2013)

Poor Silver Shoes. She was a beautiful girl. How very sad. I hope that you realise that this was not your fault and can, like Booboos says, look back in time and remember the happy times that you spent together xx


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## HollyJ (21 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			Am I missing something as I only read through the first 3 pages but you owe the YO 3 months livery

You obviously read wrong as we owed her 1 month. It was agreed the bill would be paid in full when we collected them. Anyway its totally irrelevant now as she has lost her battle and has been PTS. Disgusting what people can do over meaningless money.
		
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I have just read through this thread today... at first i felt sad, then i felt there was more to this story than what we have been told. As it emerged the poor mare had been left for a long period of time with no proper care. I don;t want to be mean but OP i think you have a lot to learn from this. Yes the yard owner had some duty of care but i think we all know that when you go away etc you KNOW your horses arent recieving the same standard of care as from yourself let alone when they are on grass livery. The mare probably looked fine with a rug on and lets be honest - how often were they really going to be taking that rug off. They probably had a quick check when they knew you were coming and sh* t themselves. The YO is not completley blameless but neither are you - i'm sorry!! Without paying for daily full livery care i don.t know what leg you would have to stand on, Especially as all the other horses were fine.  

I am sorry for your loss but even more sorry for the poor mare who has been let down from all angles. RIP beautiful mare - run free!!


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## StoptheCavalry (21 February 2013)

So sorry for your loss.

FWIW I was good friends with my old yard owner when my horse was on grass livery. It didn't and would never have crossed my mind that I should send someone down to check on my horse while he was there, I trusted her implicitly and she was much more experienced than I was and would accept if she said my horse was well then that is exactly what he was. What your yard owner did was completely negligent. 

Again so so sorry and can't believe people are trying to put any blame your way.


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## OldNag (21 February 2013)

hairycob said:



			Op, so srry. Now go away & repeat 100 times "It was not my fault. I did everything I could".
Some of the posters this thread have been unbelievably unthinking & cruel & do not deserve a second thought from you. It's so easy for some people to hide their real nature until they think you won't notice.
		
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^^^This.  Having read much of the thread I'm a bit shocked at some of the responses.  I'm very sorry for your loss, what a very sad situation indeed.  I hope the other mare recovers well.


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## cblover (21 February 2013)

My thoughts are with you at such a sad time.  I have no comment to make about blaming people but my heart is sad for any animal that dies in this way.  People never fail to disappoint me and sometimes I'm ashamed to be human.


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## AdorableAlice (21 February 2013)

browbrow said:



			Sorry silvershoes   that your horse didn't make it 

To summarise I would say the best thing you can do now is move on

This was a horse, by owners account, a typical TB was left out 24/7 in the snow on grass livery and was to be checked by YO and given hay and I doubt the 20 acre paddock was knee deep in grass at this time of year - that's NOT enough for a typical silly TB that is prone to colic so it wasn't a good solution for a horse that is such high maintenance. The other horse was ok - so YO doing something right. The law states its an OWNERS responsibility to look after a horse's welfare - all these dreamers on here banging on about YO this that and the other take em to court blah blah blah. I am thinking if you didn't have the money to asap pay for additional private transport to take the two horses to your new 500 mile away new home which would have been about 600 quid max, you wont have thousands to spend on legal fees. save yourself more heartache and just grieve for your loss and look forward.

Ignore all the duty of care yard owner crap on here, you have no leg to stand on in a court of law. 

So sorry for your outcome - you don't need to think about the what's if's now  - what's done is done. Deal with your awful loss and think of the good times and maybe look at this situ in a positive one  - that you wont do this to fellow owners that you take on as customers and write something in your contract that says each livery MUST see to their horses each day or put measures in place to ensure this happens etc......

again RIP to your mare and I do hope your new venture goes well.
		
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Lets take a wider view at your statement.

There are thousands of racehorses, dressage horses, sj's etc left in the care of a trainer.  There have been a number of cases brought into the public domain, where horses have not been given the appropriate care whilst in the care of trainers, the most recent being within the world of racing.

There are a number of stated cases where a trainer has been prosecuted for failing to provide the care that an owner has paid for.  There are many owners who do not see their horses at all, they leave their trust and cash in the hands of the trainer/rider/livery provider.

Your comment is both wrong and inappropriate and perhaps you should engage your brain before your mouth opens or your fingers spring to life on a forum.  Even better research your comments before getting it spectacularly incorrect.

OP, I am sorry for you loss.


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## debsflo (21 February 2013)

so very sorry to hear this news...


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## Snowy Celandine (21 February 2013)

"but i think we all know that when you go away etc you KNOW your horses arent recieving the same standard of care as from yourself"

Based on what exactly?  My YO cares for my horse way better than I could because she has years of experience and knowledge and would (and, indeed has), spotted the instant there is a problem.  She has an abundance of common sense and cares for all her liveries as though they are her own.

What on earth makes you think that you and you alone can care for your horse?  If you sell her will you have to go with her to care for her as, obviously, her new owner won't be able to reach your previous high standards. What utter rot  

This poor girl has lost her much loved horse and you have not a shred of compassion. Shameful


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## Merrymoles (21 February 2013)

Very sorry for your loss OP. Hugs


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## StoptheCavalry (21 February 2013)

I find it utterly amazing that people are still thinking this is the fault of the OP. I don't know about you but if I pay for a service I don't expect to have to carry it out myself. What is the point in having a professional supervising a livery yard if they can't carry out a simple level of care. I could train my dog to drag haylage into a field, the whole reason a professional does it is that you expect a certain level of care and the trained eye to spot when there is a issue which in this case there certainly was. 

There was obviously an agreement in place whereby a trusted friend and experienced livery yard owner was put in charge of a horse for which they were being financially compensated, why on earth wouldn't you think the horse would be looked after?!?!


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## pootleperkin (21 February 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			Lets take a wider view at your statement.

There are thousands of racehorses, dressage horses, sj's etc left in the care of a trainer.  There have been a number of cases brought into the public domain, where horses have not been given the appropriate care whilst in the care of trainers, the most recent being within the world of racing.

There are a number of stated cases where a trainer has been prosecuted for failing to provide the care that an owner has paid for.  There are many owners who do not see their horses at all, they leave their trust and cash in the hands of the trainer/rider/livery provider.

Your comment is both wrong and inappropriate and perhaps you should engage your brain before your mouth opens or your fingers spring to life on a forum.  Even better research your comments before getting it spectacularly incorrect.

OP, I am sorry for you loss.
		
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Very well said AA, yet again! 

Come on people, put the shoe on the other foot and have a good hard think as to whether you really are the paragons of virtue, wisdom and decision making as you evidently believe.....I can tell you one thing, examples of the above really wouldn't be kicking the poor OP while she is down.


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## patchwork puzzle (21 February 2013)

I was appalled at people blaming the OP at the start of this thread, and I am now positively disgusted at those who still see fit to pass some blame onto her, even though it is clear from their posts that they know the poor mare has lost her battle and the OP is obviously feeling distraught! 
 What kind of person must somebody be to willingly post something on here knowing full well the emotional state the OP is in, it is downright cruel and unnecessary! 
 Those of you that keep saying she should have at least had a friend to go and check, are you not reading what she has said time and again....the YO was her friend, so not only paying a YO to check, but in the same breath arranging a friend to check also!


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## MerrySherryRider (21 February 2013)

Marydoll said:



			If money is changing hands for care from a professional then it should be given, if for any reason the horse needs more, the responsible person employed to care for the horse should address it and inform the owners there will be extra charges Even at grass livery if agreed, id expect the yo to check the horse over, clearly they havent.
		
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You quoted me and I think I didn't make myself very clear in my post. I agree that an owner should be able to leave a horse in the care of the YO and expect a good standard of care. The OP counted this lady as a friend and rightly expected the horse to be looked after, particularly if it was made quite clear what the owner expected to be included in that care. Something went very wrong, especially as the mare never saw a farrier during that time and had lost all her shoes.

What happened is utterly heartbreaking. OP, has the vet given you any indication of what caused Slivershoes to collapse ? Was it an acute illness or was it due to chronic neglect ?
I really am so sorry for your loss.


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## starbar (21 February 2013)

I haven't trawled through this thread, just the first few pages.  Grass livery is just that unfortunately..... renting a space in a field.  If there was money changing hands for the horse to be checked over everyday, hayed, fed, rugs changed then the OP may have a case.
I don't understand why you haven't seen the horse for the best part of 3 months, considering the god awful winter we have had.  This is the bit I find hard to swallow - you could have at least got the YO to send a photo of her?
I hope she gets better.


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## Mardy Mare (21 February 2013)

starbar said:



			I haven't trawled through this thread... I hope she gets better.
		
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You need to read the whole thread


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## Goldenstar (21 February 2013)

OP I have not posted before because I just can't think what to say but I am so sorry she did not recover ,
I can imagine how awful you feel have an virtual hug from me.


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## Lucyad (21 February 2013)

I  trust that none of those blaming OP in any way are on full livery, or use full livery while they are on holiday? 

There is a difference between DIY grass livery, and full grass livery which seems to be what was being paid for.    A horse is not going to die of being out at grass, if properly cared for, despite being a TB.  

Not having the farrier for 8 weeks is hardly unusual (mine comes at 7 week intervals, for example, I wouldn't expect my horse to die if he was a week late).  The shoes were pulled off by the mud - if the horse was just turned away, it isn't going to do it any harm in having shoes off for a couple of months, so unless there were nails sticking out it's not unreasonable for it not to have seen a farrier in that time.

It is reasonable to expect it to be fed sufficiently for it's condition, however....


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## Wagtail (21 February 2013)

So, so sorry for your loss, OP. RIP beautiful girl x


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## patchwork puzzle (21 February 2013)

starbar said:



			I haven't trawled through this thread, just the first few pages.  Grass livery is just that unfortunately..... renting a space in a field.  If there was money changing hands for the horse to be checked over everyday, hayed, fed, rugs changed then the OP may have a case.
I don't understand why you haven't seen the horse for the best part of 3 months, considering the god awful winter we have had.  This is the bit I find hard to swallow - you could have at least got the YO to send a photo of her?
I hope she gets better.
		
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Any comments made by people that cannot be bothered to at least read the last few pages as well as the first, to ensure they know the full picture should be dismissed by the OP as nobody can make an informative comment based on a few snippets!


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## silvershoes (21 February 2013)

Thank you to the majority of people on here for their kind words and support. Glad there are caring people out there as I have certainly lost all trust from this. 

As for the people with a bit more to say, yes, you might be right but it certainly isnt whats right for my horse, she suffered through no fault of her own after negligence from someone I was paying and someone I thought I trusted. Yes, it was a grass livery and I wouldn't expect the YO to do everything if I was sat on my butt 5mins down the road and just couldn't be bothered to go and see her. I was hundreds of miles away setting up my own livery yard where I certainly wouldn't let ANY of these horses on here end up in a state like she did. It was agreed for her to take care of our horses until arrangements were made to collect them. Regardless of owners responsibilities to make sure my horse was receiving adequit care because this was all put in place before I left. Therefore I did what I could and the YO let not only me but my poor horse down. 

I don't even know why I have to explain myself but I will do everything I can for my gorgeous girl to get the justice she deserves. It was never supposed to end like this and there is only one person who let her get like this. 

Our other mare is ok, she's in safe hands now. She is living out and in the few days she has been here she has put on a bit of weight and looks a lot happier. She is in a smaller paddock with 4 other ponies and a round bale, plenty water and feeds every day. Doesn't take much to just give them the care they need and deserve.


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## pip6 (21 February 2013)

Very sorry for your loss, absolutely tragic. Please don't blame yourself, you did what you thought was best for her, it was your 'friend' who let her down. Good to hear the others are improving.


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## BorgRae (21 February 2013)

So sorry for your loss 

RIP beautiful girl xx xx xx


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## patchwork puzzle (21 February 2013)

Silvershoes, you really shouldnt feel that you need to explain yourself over and over. Those who are being critical need to read the entire thread and they will then see that you have explained time and again. If anyone still feels the need to be critical then they are doing so knowing that it is inappropriate given what you are currently going through and as such, they dont deserve the effort!


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## Lambkins (21 February 2013)

So sad ..I really feel for you OP ..and for your poor mare..please don't blame yourself ..I too have left my boy with friends for 7 weeks (I had to go out to Australia ) I paid ..his stable rent , hay ,sacks off feed, shoes, bedding all upfront to YO ..and paid two friends to come and take care of him ..they did do a fab job and were well paid And I called all the time ..emailed too.. He cut his face while I was away ..as I was called ASAP ..I said call the vet no matter how small the cut (I was sent photos but couldn't really tell how bad it was ) vet came and fixed him  ..he was like in a five star hotel ..all food no work !! ..but I guess I was lucky and have nice friends ..could have been very different I guess  ..so it does happen people do leave their much loved horses in other peoples hands ..and I would have been gutted if this had happened to my boy..you did what you thought was right for your horse..but very sadly u and your horse were very much out of sight out of mind ...heartbreaking


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## hairycob (21 February 2013)

Just remembered it's half term. That probably explains the large number of critical posts from people who clearly have little experience of life.
OP, of course you don't have to explain yourself. Most of us understand - those who don't now probably will when they grow up.


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## 1stclassalan (21 February 2013)

I too am very sorry to belatedly hear of the bad ending.

A plague on all the critics too - I would have them read, learn and inwardly digest that "grass livery" should be taken to mean just that - grass capable of sustaining a healthy horse - it does not mean taking someone's money and watching their horse fade away before your eyes!

I ask all that still wish to hold the O.P to blame part or fully to consider the events if it were an child. Can anyone imagine the following scenario? Child is left with minder who is being paid - mother comes to pick up but says "oh can you look after child for a bit longer because I have to go away for a while, I'll pay the same rate" - when mother returns she finds child on last legs - minder says "well, I only put food out but didn't check to see if it was eaten."  MEIN GOTT IM HIMMEL! I doubt whether I could have contained myself with these people!


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## Big Ben (21 February 2013)

So sorry you lost your girl.


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## Spring Feather (21 February 2013)

What a very sad tale.  That poor, poor mare.  She was badly let down


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## julie111 (21 February 2013)

I'm very sorry to read this, rip Silver Shoes.


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## eatmyshorts (21 February 2013)

OP, I am so sorry to hear of your loss. You have learned a tragic lesson that you should never have had to (presuming there where no other underlying health issues which caused your girl to go downhill suddenly), simply because you trusted a friend. Even if the arrangements you had left (ie grass and hay when snow on the ground) were not sufficient - and TBH based on my experience of my own TBs, it wasn't likely to be - the "professional" you were paying should have advised you of this so you could have rectified the matter. In saying that, from the condition you describe, it wouldn't take someone with much knowledge to spot there was something badly wrong and it should have been acted upon before it had such tragic circumstances.

Do persue justice for your girl, don't let her die in vain. I'm happy to admit that I'm not sure where you stand legally (unlike some who seem to confidently make it up), but it shouldn't be hard to find out. Do you have photos of her before you left? Or even someone who can vouch for her condition back then? Can you get the vet to write a report on likely cause of death? It will no doubt be difficult for you at this time to think about these things but you will be glad you did and it will give you comfort in the long run.

For the self righteous people on here who lack compassion and seem to think this is an appropriate time to lecture, you have taken this forum lower than i thought possible, even given it's reputation, and you should be ashamed of yourselves.

RIP Silver Shoes, and hugs to you OP xx


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## Dirtymare (21 February 2013)

I too havent read all through the many pages of this thread. I dont need to, as I can imagine what utter evilness some ignoramuses on this forum can post!
From the bits I have read, it is crystal clear the OP did everything in her power to ensure her mare was OK.
To make matters worse, the person she entrusted her mare to was a friend.
Well, I hope she is no longer a friend. 
OP, I am sorry for your very sad loss.
I hope you make a good go of your new yard and life and make some new good friends.

RIP lovely mare. Run free.

xxx


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## nixharveandpri (21 February 2013)

I'm so sorry for your loss OP 

Try to ignore those who are knocking you - you paid the yard owner to check your horse, give additional forage and trusted them, not only as a livery yard owner but as your friend, to report honestly on how your horse was doing while in her care. If she's registered with the BHS or any other authority, I would consider reporting her if I was in your shoes, although can understand that's difficult while you're feeling emotional. It might prevent other horses in her care suffering though.

RIP little mare xx


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## diamonddogs (21 February 2013)

Silvershoes, please stop trying to explain yourself to a bunch of callous hypocrits who wouldn't know compassion if jumped up and bit them.

I don't know what's making me more angry, the neglect of your beautiful girl, or people can come on here and read a couple of posts (including one who hadn't even bothered to find out the outcome before posting *****) and pass judgement on you, or the cruelty of those who did know the outcome but still thought it OK to pillory you.

You have nothing to explain, nothing to blame yourself for. I just hope you can somehow find a way to move on from this, and if that's dragging your so-called friend through the courts, or shoving her teeth down her throat, then that's what you must do.

I can't get your poor little mare out of my head, but at least she's in a place now where nobody can hurt her again. Which is more than I can say for you, but the decent ones among us are 100% on your side and grieve with you.

xxx


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## julie111 (21 February 2013)

Unfortunately some people think they are so brave making nasty comments behind the cover of their computers! These people are the two faced type that you sometimes have the misfortune of meeting in real life! RIP Silver Shoes.


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## fatpiggy (21 February 2013)

This is such a sad story.  I learned the hard way too that "friends" are the last people I would trust my horse to.  The first one cheerfully sublet the job to the totally novice YO to save her having to get up in the mornings, but didn't tell me and happily accepted the thank you gift I brought back after my brief visit to my family.  I didn't find out for a year and then only by accident.  If I'd wanted the YO to do it I'd have asked her direct but as she had very young children I wouldn't have imposed on her, let alone knew very little about horses anyway.  The other time, again I was visiting family (for Christmas) and the person allegedly caring for my mare who was stabled 24/7 because we had no winter turnout then, left her in her stable the entire time, despite promising to at least get her out into the indoor for a roll every day, didn't feed her much before lunchtime (found out she had been bladdered every night so wasn't in a fit state to drive up) despite assuring me it would be around 9am so that my mare's time-dependent drugs weren't affected, only needed to skip out every day and remove the wet patch once, but just stuck a bale of fresh bedding on the day before I got back and thought I wouldn't notice.  The fact that the entire bed squelched as I walked over it and I then had to spend an hour digging the whole thing out and use all my months spare supply to restart it - just lovely after a 9 hour drive, thanks very much. Needless to say that was the last time I spent Christmas with my family      To cap it all when I  had cared for her horse for a staight 2 weeks while she had a holiday the same year, she insisted (as if I'd do otherwise) that the bed was fully mucked out every single day. I even groomed the horse every day  and cleaned her tack for her.   When I care for an animal it gets exactly the same level of care and attention as I give my own and I never get paid a penny.

I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the OP would have done so much better to just stump up the money for a professional horse mover and taken the animals with her asap.  This tragedy has cost far more in the long run, both financially and spiritually.  After the events above, I never left my horse further away than I could get to in a day if there was an emergency, and never for longer than 5 days. Even when she was in horspital I did the 100 mile round trip to see her every day but I did believe at the time that she wouldn't be coming home so time with her was precious (she lived another 16 years!)

I'm afraid people make animals look like saints.  RIP poor mare. I hope she is up there enjoying the nice grass with my old girl.


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## Fairycupcake (21 February 2013)

I havent read all of the replies but read enough. I personally think that the YO has a duty of care as it wouldnt of hurt for her to have sent you a text message or some thing just to say that she wasnt looking good, as she was quick enough to tell your OH that she was looking poor when he was on his way up to get her. It doesnt cost any thing to do this, regardless if you had a verbal contract that she was ment to be checking her or not so I do think that in that case she knew the mare was poor yet she didnt tell you. I also think that 2 months isnt as bad as leaving her for 6 or so months and then saying that you want back to get her and found her in this state, then I would be saying that you had every chance to go and get her back etc, yes I know that you could of seen her when the snow cleared and I couldnt say that I would be happy not seeing my own horse for 2 months and would of been really worried with all the snow we had etc and her being out but as you say you was very far away and the YO said that she would check on them, in which she obviously did but didnt think to alert you of the matter so in that case I see that she is in the wrong! Yes you could of gone and seen her after the snow had gone but you didnt and took her word on the matter. Im also taking that unfortunately she has had to be pts in which im very sorry to hear  Not a nice story at all  xx


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## exracer superstar (21 February 2013)

Op I am so sorry for your loss. Absolutely horrendous I have friends who I would trust with my horse to care for her for the same period of time without me feeling concerned especially when recieving updates saying she was fine. 

For what it's worth I was on a yard April until August last year so summer, the grass wasnt bad to start with but yo kept allowing more and more ponies into our field my TB started looking poorer and poorer and I bucket fed etc to have the yo roll her eyes at me saying there was nothing wrong with her weight, fortunatly we moved asap but before being on her yard I would of considered her as someone I would trust although not a friend knew her well, if I had been in the situation the same as u I feel my responses of her would of been the same ohh she's fine but when I seen her would of been a different kettle of fish.

Once again sorry for your loss and I hope u can get some closure on the whole situation x


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## zaminda (21 February 2013)

OP you have my deepest sympathy, this simply shouldn't happen when you are both paying for a service, and you are friends with the person.
I hope someone took pictures of the mare, and that you pursue this further. I would be talking to welfare organisations, and seeing if this woman could be prosecuted.
As Adorable Alice said, there have been several cases of trainers being prosecuted for failing to look after horses in there care.
It is all very well saying that you should have, could have gone to see her, but life is not always simple.


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## Noseyparker (21 February 2013)

I manage a yard of 70 horses, There are also 6 Grass Liveries ( and the majority of the work horses also live out)

I check each of those horses daily for condition, including the grass livery ones ( even thought their owner comes once a day anyway) a quick glance over for cuts and condition takes a millisecond...

What the YO has done is so wrong on SO many levels. Even if the OP was behind on rent was late picking the horse up, had fallen out with YO any one of these scenerios the horse was neglected and left in a state it could barely walk. Regardles of what I think of an owner, I could hate their guts! I would not see any horse left like this. In this case the Owner was not only a paying customer but also a friend, and has also been lied to regarding whart condition the horse was in. She had no need to worry or a need to check when her 'friend and yard manager' had agreed to look after her.

I would be contacting the RSPCA, I would also get a full report from the vet as evidence. 

What a terrible story, and how the mare must of suffered.


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## Circe (22 February 2013)

So sorry for your loss OP, its an appalling way to lose your horse, you certainly dont have to justify yourself to posters on here, especially those that can't be bothered to read all the thread before posting.
Quick question to the posters who think that the op is to blame for this
Ill be leaving my tb for 4 weeks when I return to the UK, I'll be paying to have him fed, checked on, rugged and looked after. If I return after 4 weeks and find him dead from hunger, will that be my fault?
Kx


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## maccachic (22 February 2013)

Prob as everyone knows if you own a horse you are not allowed to get sick, go on holiday, away for work or have any personal situation crop up.


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## splashjack (22 February 2013)

i have followed this post right from the start and i am so sorry to hear you have lost your mare op 

i actually cant understand some of the comments on here, you paid your so called friend to take care of your horse and trusted her to do this!!!

I used to manage a full livery yard we had 20 stabled and 7 out at grass, sometimes i didnt see the owners for 4-5 weeks yet i cared for those horses as if they were my own, everyday the grass liveries were checked twice a day given hay, rugs removed and put back on extras added if needed for bad weather and also all legs etc checked for cuts bruises etc!!! if a prob arose owner was immediatly informed and prob dealt with usually by myself!!!

If you are paid to care for someones horse that is what you do!!!

Please dont blame yourself and hope you get justice for your mare.

Rip little mare ((hugs )) for you op xx


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## maree t (22 February 2013)

I am really sorry that you lost your mare. I hope to hear that you have taken some action against this YO that allowed her to get into such a state. wether I was being paid or not I would never allow a horse either in my care or known to me to get into this state without doing something about it.


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## Firewell (22 February 2013)

I am very sad to hear your mare died. So sorry. I havent read all the replies since I first posted but from the few I did read it seemed you weren't to blame.
Im in a situation currenlty where im paying an awful lot of money to a livery yard and my TB is loosing weight. If I had to go away for 3 months im not sure I would find my horse in a particularly good place either and mine is in and has some hay. TB's drop off so quickly that they can look awful before anyone has had a chance to notice. They are'nt like cobs and natives. Really sorry, this story is hitting home to me a bit at the moment .


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## ozpoz (22 February 2013)

I don't think it matters if the horse is a tb or not. It should be fed and checked, weight monitored, every day,regardless - I hate hearing "he is so difficult to keep weight on - he is tb of course..."
Then feed it/rug it/provide shelter/vet care appropriately!! Most of all, just pay attention!

The horse being a particular breed is of no importance in this case. Thousands of t.b's are in training and never see their owners. The Y.O. is paid to care for them, not to neglect them, no matter what kind of livery. He/she has a duty to look at the animals they are responsible for and feed/ or take action according to what they observe.
Again, I am so sorry for your loss - she looked beautiful.


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## Bigginge (22 February 2013)

Noseyparker said:



			I manage a yard of 70 horses, There are also 6 Grass Liveries ( and the majority of the work horses also live out)

I check each of those horses daily for condition, including the grass livery ones ( even thought their owner comes once a day anyway) a quick glance over for cuts and condition takes a millisecond...

What the YO has done is so wrong on SO many levels. Even if the OP was behind on rent was late picking the horse up, had fallen out with YO any one of these scenerios the horse was neglected and left in a state it could barely walk. Regardles of what I think of an owner, I could hate their guts! I would not see any horse left like this. In this case the Owner was not only a paying customer but also a friend, and has also been lied to regarding whart condition the horse was in. She had no need to worry or a need to check when her 'friend and yard manager' had agreed to look after her.

I would be contacting the RSPCA, I would also get a full report from the vet as evidence. 

What a terrible story, and how the mare must of suffered.
		
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Exactly this. I am very sorry for your loss OP. Please do not blame yourself


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## Ilovefoals (22 February 2013)

Noseyparker said:



			I manage a yard of 70 horses, There are also 6 Grass Liveries ( and the majority of the work horses also live out)

I check each of those horses daily for condition, including the grass livery ones ( even thought their owner comes once a day anyway) a quick glance over for cuts and condition takes a millisecond...

What the YO has done is so wrong on SO many levels. Even if the OP was behind on rent was late picking the horse up, had fallen out with YO any one of these scenerios the horse was neglected and left in a state it could barely walk. Regardles of what I think of an owner, I could hate their guts! I would not see any horse left like this. In this case the Owner was not only a paying customer but also a friend, and has also been lied to regarding whart condition the horse was in. She had no need to worry or a need to check when her 'friend and yard manager' had agreed to look after her.

I would be contacting the RSPCA, I would also get a full report from the vet as evidence. 

What a terrible story, and how the mare must of suffered.
		
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THIS!!!  So sorry for your loss.  Please don't blame yourself.  It is not your fault this happened. Hugs xx


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## Coldfeet! (22 February 2013)

So terribly sad and sorry for what you and your mare have just been through. 
X


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## silvershoes (22 February 2013)

Thank you again for all your kind messages. Its been such a difficult and stressful time for me and my OH. 

Spoke to RSPCA who seemed pretty interested to investagate further, took all the details and I said I had pictures but they asked to see her body so I passed on the cremation companies details so I assume they will be going to see her today  

Also got in touch with the BSJA (as the YO in question is an official judge) who said to keep them in the loop. 

Had a reply from the solicitor who gave me a list of evidence I need to gather, all of which I can get no problem but it seems it is going to cost way more than I can afford and I will only get back her purchase price and the livery I have paid...what about all the vets bills I now have coming my way?!  any body have any suggestions, I'm not bothered about conpensation, I just want justice for my mare and I believe I shouldn't have to pay for these un necessary vets bills. At my wits end now


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## HappyHooves (22 February 2013)

This news is a small glimmer of good in a horrid situation. Does the solicitor say that you cannot claim the vets fees? Ask if smalll claims court is worth a try - but I do know that this costs and sometimes, even if they find in your favour, the other person can just ignore the court's decision.
Sending pm.


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## PandorasJar (22 February 2013)

IMO... If it's justice you want, don't go round the court route unless you can get someone to represent you FOC.

Do what you're doing now, compile the evidence, have rspca involved and contact bsja.
I'd pay bills and then send an invoice to the YO. She may come to an agreement to settle and not pursue rather than losing yourself more money than the vet bills.


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## Big Ben (22 February 2013)

Any legal fees cover in any of your insurances?


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## 1stclassalan (22 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			Thank you again for all your kind messages. Its been such a difficult and stressful time for me and my OH. 

Spoke to RSPCA who seemed pretty interested to investagate further, took all the details and I said I had pictures but they asked to see her body so I passed on the cremation companies details so I assume they will be going to see her today  

Also got in touch with the BSJA (as the YO in question is an official judge) who said to keep them in the loop. 

Had a reply from the solicitor who gave me a list of evidence I need to gather, all of which I can get no problem but it seems it is going to cost way more than I can afford and I will only get back her purchase price and the livery I have paid...what about all the vets bills I now have coming my way?!  any body have any suggestions, I'm not bothered about conpensation, I just want justice for my mare and I believe I shouldn't have to pay for these un necessary vets bills. At my wits end now 

Click to expand...

I don't know what sort of solicitor you have but I would have though you have an excellent case for damages - fraud - taking money under false pretenses - failing to execute fudicary care, failing in every contractual manner and on top of that - standing by and doing nothing in an undoubted case of animal cruelty - I see that as something you could sue their sorry a**es for - however; you do have to stump up the money first - the fear of loosing puts many folk off litigating and that reluctance helps to ensure themselves or people like them will do the same thing again.

Sometimes though the very threat of a big court case - especially if you go in hard to begin - can produce the desired effect.


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## Spring Feather (22 February 2013)

1stclassalan said:



			I don't know what sort of solicitor you have but I would have though you have an excellent case for damages - fraud - taking money under false pretenses - failing to execute fudicary care, failing in every contractual manner and on top of that - standing by and doing nothing in an undoubted case of animal cruelty - I see that as something you could sue their sorry a**es for - however; you do have to stump up the money first - the fear of loosing puts many folk off litigating and that reluctance helps to ensure themselves or people like them will do the same thing again.

Sometimes though the very threat of a big court case - especially if you go in hard to begin - can produce the desired effect.
		
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I really don't want to write what I'm writing on such a sad thread but in response to above there are a couple of points which may not make this such an easy case to win.  

The OP says she owes the YO one months rent for the 2 horses, so I don't think the 'taking money under false pretences' could be argued as the YO wasn't paid for looking after the 2 horses for the past month.

If all the other horses were in decent condition and the only one who was so emaciated, even though there was apparently hay in the field, then unless OP has paid for an autopsy how does anyone know why the mare lost so much weight so quickly, eventually leading to her death?  Horses can drop huge amounts of weight very quickly, within days in some circumstances, rarely because of lack of feed, generally because of an acute medical condition.  Now yes granted the YO should have noticed and contacted the owner to let her know that the horse was losing condition so as far as I can see, this is the only thing that is rock-solid in this sad story, so what charges could be brought against YO for not getting in touch with the owner?

And as to the threat of a very big court case, what outcome does the OP want?  Financial?  Apology?


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## siennamum (22 February 2013)

Is it definite that neglect was the cause of the mare dying? I wonder whether she had somehting like grass sickness, which can make a horse look like a bag of bones within days. I may have missed something, but am curious to know if this has been discounted.


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## diamonddogs (22 February 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			...
The OP says she owes the YO one months rent for the 2 horses, so I don't think the 'taking money under false pretences' could be argued as the YO wasn't paid for looking after the 2 horses for the past month...
		
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This part is what I'm unclear about - the last three yards I've been at have billed in arrears, a week, a fortnight, a month, whatever your personal payment schedule is - so in my experience it's technically not a debt. Or is it normal to pay in advance?

If I ran a yard it would certainly be simpler to bill in arrears, so you know where you are with hay, straw, wormers etc, rather than in advance for field rent and arrears for extras.

OP, glad you've got the ball rolling. I hope you do get some recompense, but if not, at least you'll have tried, and hopefully put the fear of god up your "friend".

At the very least I'd try billing her for vet's bills, in if/when she ignores it, hit her with small claims (with a bit on for your own stress and pain and suffering) like others have suggested. If you win, and she doesn't pay up, send in the bailiffs, and hopefully she'll end up with a CCJ which won't do her business standing much good.

Personally, I'd prefer to ram her teeth down her throat then leave her in a field unable to eat, but that's just me.


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## concernedyardowner (23 February 2013)

Sorry to hear about your mare! Hope she makes a full recovery. 

However, what does concern me is the length of time it took the HO to attend to their horses. I mean come on 2 months is a very long time not to check your horses and especially in the winter!! What did your other horse look like on it's return? Was it thin too? What was the state of the other horses in the field? Was there haylage in the field? In your agreement did you pay more than the requested "Grass livery" fee to the YO to check your horse; friend or not!!
I have two horses on livery in the south which costs a lot of money,  but I also pay extra to have the YO check my horses when I am away working (which is quite often). I also pay extra in the winter for haylage as we all know grass is in short supply during winter months. 
Personally, I don't think you are giving the YO a fair deal here! The YO has the responsibility of providing you with the land and for the up-keep of the field, but IT IS NOT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY to care for other peoples' horses (unless it is agreed prior to you moving) 
It is also important that the livery fee is paid on-time as this makes things easier and then possibly the YO will show "good-will" and actually check the horses! A suggestion that possibly you should pay the livery bills if you intend on taking things further?! This will show you in a better light!
Have you contacted the RSPCA over your concerns as if the other horses are in a state this could possibly be a good thing to do?! If you have aleady done so - what was the outcome? 
Have you had blood taken from your horse to check for any underlying problems, or are you just pure an simply trying to shift the blame onto others for your own neglegence?
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I used to run my own yard and know how it feels to have things discussed behind their backs!


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## rockysmum (23 February 2013)

concernedyardowner said:



			Sorry to hear about your mare! Hope she makes a full recovery. 

However, what does concern me is the length of time it took the HO to attend to their horses. I mean come on 2 months is a very long time not to check your horses and especially in the winter!! What did your other horse look like on it's return? Was it thin too? What was the state of the other horses in the field? Was there haylage in the field? In your agreement did you pay more than the requested "Grass livery" fee to the YO to check your horse; friend or not!!
I have two horses on livery in the south which costs a lot of money,  but I also pay extra to have the YO check my horses when I am away working (which is quite often). I also pay extra in the winter for haylage as we all know grass is in short supply during winter months. 
Personally, I don't think you are giving the YO a fair deal here! The YO has the responsibility of providing you with the land and for the up-keep of the field, but IT IS NOT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY to care for other peoples' horses (unless it is agreed prior to you moving) 
It is also important that the livery fee is paid on-time as this makes things easier and then possibly the YO will show "good-will" and actually check the horses! A suggestion that possibly you should pay the livery bills if you intend on taking things further?! This will show you in a better light!
Have you contacted the RSPCA over your concerns as if the other horses are in a state this could possibly be a good thing to do?! If you have aleady done so - what was the outcome? 
Have you had blood taken from your horse to check for any underlying problems, or are you just pure an simply trying to shift the blame onto others for your own neglegence?
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I used to run my own yard and know how it feels to have things discussed behind their backs!
		
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For gods sake read the whole thread

THE HORSE IS DEAD

The OP has already answered these questions, dont put her through it again


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## touchstone (23 February 2013)

concernedyardowner said:



			Sorry to hear about your mare! Hope she makes a full recovery. 

However, what does concern me is the length of time it took the HO to attend to their horses. I mean come on 2 months is a very long time not to check your horses and especially in the winter!! What did your other horse look like on it's return? Was it thin too? What was the state of the other horses in the field? Was there haylage in the field? In your agreement did you pay more than the requested "Grass livery" fee to the YO to check your horse; friend or not!!
I have two horses on livery in the south which costs a lot of money,  but I also pay extra to have the YO check my horses when I am away working (which is quite often). I also pay extra in the winter for haylage as we all know grass is in short supply during winter months. 
Personally, I don't think you are giving the YO a fair deal here! The YO has the responsibility of providing you with the land and for the up-keep of the field, but IT IS NOT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY to care for other peoples' horses (unless it is agreed prior to you moving) 
It is also important that the livery fee is paid on-time as this makes things easier and then possibly the YO will show "good-will" and actually check the horses! A suggestion that possibly you should pay the livery bills if you intend on taking things further?! This will show you in a better light!
Have you contacted the RSPCA over your concerns as if the other horses are in a state this could possibly be a good thing to do?! If you have aleady done so - what was the outcome? 
Have you had blood taken from your horse to check for any underlying problems, or are you just pure an simply trying to shift the blame onto others for your own neglegence?
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I used to run my own yard and know how it feels to have things discussed behind their backs!
		
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Have you bothered to read the whole thread?  

These points have been answered.  Why should she pay  a livery bill for a horse that was neglected to the point of death?  

I also think you'll find that livery yard owners do have a responsibility to the horses on their land:-
Q. b)   If any horse is being neglected on a yard who is responsible for its welfare.


A. b)     Under the animal welfare act 2007 (code of practice for the welfare of equines) and depending on what type of livery (full-part or DIY) as to the degree of responsibility, however the act requires all yards with some degree of responsibility to provide the horses 5 needs.



The 5 Needs of the Horse.



  1. Has a suitable environment to live in.     2. Has a healthy Diet.       3.  Is able to behave
normally.         4. Has appropriate company.      5. Is protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease.



Q. c)    If a horse needs veterinary treatment on a yard and the owner will not call a vet who is responsible for the animal&#8217;s welfare and what should be done.



A.c)    Report it to the local authorities,animal health and welfare dept or to horse charities that have welfare
officers, World Horse Welfare, British Horse Society or RSPCA.


I think you'll find that the yard owner was negligent in ensuring either of the above were done.


Q. d) If you keep your horse on a livery yard who should hold the passport.



A.d)   The owner can keep the passport providing they can produce it if requested to do so. A photo copy of such could be held at the yard.



Q. e)    What action can a livery yard owner take against an owner of a horse being cruelly treated.


A. e) Report to the local authority&#8217;s animal health and welfare or report to WHW, BHS or RSPCA. Etc.   Taking notes and/or diary with photographic evidence would be advantageous.


ETA:- God, now I'm getting involved repeating again and again!  Please have the courteousy to read the whole thread and prevent the poor owner having to go over it all.


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## patchwork puzzle (23 February 2013)

concernedyardowner - People who cannot even be bothered to read the thread, or at least the last few pages to find out what has happened really need to keep their uninformed, insensitive and downright mean comments to themselves!


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## nostromo70 (23 February 2013)

I haven't read everything here. But surely how can anyone watch a horse or any animal slowly die and not do anything about it. If this has been covered earlier in this thread i apologise.


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## be positive (23 February 2013)

patchwork puzzle said:



			concernedyardowner - People who cannot even be bothered to read the thread, or at least the last few pages to find out what has happened really need to keep their uninformed, insensitive and downright mean comments to themselves!
		
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Absolutely this , I am also a concerned YO, the OP has done nothing wrong other than to trust the wrong person, if you cannot be bothered to read the whole thread do not feel qualified to pass judgement.


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## rockysmum (23 February 2013)

Can I say it first please 


TROLL


First post, calls themselves "concernedyardowner" but say their horses are on livery ??????????

Or perhaps worse than troll, someone involved in this sad story


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## concernedyardowner (23 February 2013)

My appologies for not reading the last few threads! I am also sorry to hear about the horses death! 
However there is such a thing as freedom of speech and I am only voicing my opinion. 
My personal opinion is that the HO is only trying to ease their own conscience! Lets wait to see if there been a postmortem done and see what the results are?!


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## rockysmum (23 February 2013)

concernedyardowner said:



			My appologies for not reading the last few threads! I am also sorry to hear about the horses death! 
However there is such a thing as freedom of speech and I am only voicing my opinion. 
My personal opinion is that the HO is only trying to ease their own conscience! Lets wait to see if there been a postmortem done and see what the results are?!
		
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Well this forum is bad enough without people joining to voice opinions such as yours, particularly when they can even be bother to read the thread (this one not "the last few threads")

If you are for real, which I doubt, not a good start


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## concernedyardowner (23 February 2013)

rockysmum said:



			Can I say it first please 


TROLL


First post, calls themselves "concernedyardowner" but say their horses are on livery ??????????

Or perhaps worse than troll, someone involved in this sad story 

Click to expand...

Had you have completely read my original post you will see that I had said that I used to run my own yard! 
I am thankfully not involved in what is a very sad case and that my own horses are well and healthy! I certainly feel for the very sorry for the HO!


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## be positive (23 February 2013)

concernedyardowner said:



			My appologies for not reading the last few threads! I am also sorry to hear about the horses death! 
However there is such a thing as freedom of speech and I am only voicing my opinion. 
My personal opinion is that the HO is only trying to ease their own conscience! Lets wait to see if there been a postmortem done and see what the results are?!
		
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Why should they need to ease their own conscience, they paid a "trusted friend" to care for the horse, there may well be an underlying cause but it still does not answer why the horse was not seen by a vet or anything done until it was being collected, by then it was all too late.


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## concernedyardowner (23 February 2013)

I'm cetainly not on here to cause trouble, but people are very quick to blame YO and others for theeir own failings! I also agree that the yard owner may have had a duty of care for these horses but having said that we do not know all the facts do we?!
It does anger me when people try to shift blame onto others!


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## rockysmum (23 February 2013)

concernedyardowner said:



			Had you have completely read my original post you will see that I had said that I used to run my own yard! 
I am thankfully not involved in what is a very sad case and that my own horses are well and healthy! I certainly feel for the very sorry for the HO!
		
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A better name would have been "concernedEXyardowner", which given your opinions on this sad case is probably a very good thing.


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## lachlanandmarcus (23 February 2013)

be positive said:



			Why should they need to ease their own conscience, they paid a "trusted friend" to care for the horse, there may well be an underlying cause but it still does not answer why the horse was not seen by a vet or anything done until it was being collected, by then it was all too late.
		
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THIS!!!

' Concerned yard owner' hmmmmmm. I'd be concerned if you were my YO given that the OP paid for the horses care to someone she thought was trustworthy and was assured they were well and in good condition. As opposed to dying......


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## concernedyardowner (23 February 2013)

rockysmum said:



			A better name would have been "concernedEXyardowner", which given your opinions on this sad case is probably a very good thing.
		
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I have not said what I have said for a slanging match on here! It is a fact that there are two sides to evey story! And as I have said previously I do feel very sad for the HO!


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## Bille (23 February 2013)

Quite a few biting comments here.  Not really what you need at this difficult time. 

As far as you know, you had everything in place to ensure appropriate care for your mare and I sincerely hope, she will get better very soon and will be finally be reunited with you


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## Beausmate (23 February 2013)

Why don't people read the whole thread before commenting?  OP lost her horse.


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## Tormenta (23 February 2013)

A Yard Owner CAN be held responsible for what happens on their land, that is why most sensible YOs would have Insurance! Honestly........:-/


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## Bille (23 February 2013)

Beausmate said:



			Why don't people read the whole thread before commenting?  OP lost her horse.

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Sorry Beausmate, you are right 

Very sorry OP that you have lost your mare.


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## concernedyardowner (23 February 2013)

Tormenta said:



			A Yard Owner CAN be held responsible for what happens on their land, that is why most sensible YOs would have Insurance! Honestly........:-/
		
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I also agree with you on this! Isn't it a fact that responsible horse owners such as us have our horses insured! So, having said that, won't the veterinary bills be covered on the HO's insurance?


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## touchstone (23 February 2013)

concernedyardowner said:



			I'm cetainly not on here to cause trouble, but people are very quick to blame YO and others for theeir own failings! I also agree that the yard owner may have had a duty of care for these horses but having said that we do not know all the facts do we?!
It does anger me when people try to shift blame onto others!
		
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It angers me when people don't accept responsibility for their actions - like allowing a horse *in your care* to *die*  There were no failings on the owners part other than believing a trusted friend was telling the truth.

I don't see how the YO can be excused for allowing a horse to become emaciated to the point of death, or if other health issues were the cause of death then a vet should have been called.

I frequently care for a neighbours horse and I'd be mortified if it became ill or underweight and I didn't take measures to prevent it, and would never say a horse was fine when it evidently wasn't.


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## Goldenstar (23 February 2013)

concernedyardowner said:



			I'm cetainly not on here to cause trouble, but people are very quick to blame YO and others for theeir own failings! I also agree that the yard owner may have had a duty of care for these horses but having said that we do not know all the facts do we?!
It does anger me when people try to shift blame onto others!
		
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concernedyardowner said:



			I also agree with you on this! Isn't it a fact that responsible horse owners such as us have our horses insured! So, having said that, won't the veterinary bills be covered on the HO's insurance?
		
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I think Tormenta is referring to the fact that OP may sue the YOover the failure of duty of care.


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## diamonddogs (23 February 2013)

*I'm thinking that the time's come to lock this thread,* if only to stop people who can't be arsed to read all of it sticking their two penn'orth in.

As I have said over and over again, in my experience, livery bills are paid IN ARREARS and nobody has come forward to correct me by telling me that my experience is unusual and livery is normally paid IN ADVANCE. So as far as I'm concerned, OP wasn't behind with her rent as she has repeatedly said that her OH was going to pay when he collected the horses.

In any case, it wouldn't bother me if an owner hadn't paid me a penny, I would not stand by and leave the animal unattended and unloved. I have looked after other people's horses when they've been unable to attend themselves (even through sheer idleness in one case) and they've had exactly the same care that my own horse had, including attending to a particularly nasty wound that should really have had veterinary attention.

Please, for the love of god, once and for all, stop having a go at the OP. Whether you think she's right or wrong, she is the one that has to live with this.


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## Spring Feather (23 February 2013)

diamonddogs said:



*

As I have said over and over again, in my experience, livery bills are paid IN ARREARS and nobody has come forward to correct me by telling me that my experience is unusual and livery is normally paid IN ADVANCE. *

Click to expand...

*

No horse stays on my property without payment made on arrival and then up front each month.  I know of no professional yard where payment is made in arrears, all yards I know are paid monthly in advance.  Any extras on top are added to the coming months livery and are paid in arrears but the set livery fee is always paid in advance.  Regardless, the horse should have been attended to if it dropped weight with such rapidity.  If all other horses on the yard looked fine then I strongly suspect the horse had some medical condition and as such the YO should have contacted the owner and then the vet.  Some conditions can take hold very quickly indeed so perhaps the YO panicked and tried to remedy the problem; we really don't know the full story though.*


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## Welsh (23 February 2013)

So sorry to read of your mare's plight, my horse nearly died while on loan to a riding school/livery yard in Wales not far from me with 'reputable' instructors and employees and he's now crippled for life and as long as we can make him comfortable that's all we can do. If he's in pain obviously we'll do the right thing. I don't trust ANYONE now. 
xx


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## Tobiano (23 February 2013)

OP, I am so sorry for your loss and the awful trauma you have been through.  Your Silver shoes was beautiful.  Run free, Silver Shoes.


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## cindydog (23 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			Update for you all. 

Unfortunately she has fought her last battle and has had to be PTS. She had a reaction to all the drugs she has had and was no longer able to fight. I feel totally empty inside and wish I could have done more and especially been there for her during her last hours. RIP and sleep tight my gorgeous little Silver Shoes xxxxx
		
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So very sorry for the loss of your mare, hugs to you, you did what you could it was others that let you and your mare down.


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## diamonddogs (23 February 2013)

Thanks for that, Springfeather 

As I suspected, but I did check my latest bill to be sure I am paying in arrears before posting, as I've been on this yard for some time!


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## MerrySherryRider (23 February 2013)

Some yards ask for payment in arrears but increasingly many request the fees a month in advance by D.D. 

I think if the OP wished to take the legal route, there may need to be a post mortem so the cause of death is documented. If Silvershoes suffered from an acute illness, her deterioration may have been very rapid and the outcome of an investigation would be different to that where it was found to be neglect over several weeks.


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## accusedyardowner (23 February 2013)

*******************Statement of FACT ************************

As the afore mentioned YO I feel a few points need to be cleared up! SilverShoes was in the field with 8 other horses "20acres" to include in-foal mares and veterans alike. All were treated the same and have cme through winter absolutely fine. Livery clients were charged grass-livery and were informed via text message that big round bales of haylage was added to the field. No reply to the message was given. 
Both mares of the livery client came with shoes and it was pomised that a farrier would be organised by the clients to remove the shoes and trim the feet, However, this DID NOT happen! When one of the mares lost a rug in the bad weather the livery client was informed again via text message. The reply to this was "a local friend was organised to replace the rug" This DID NOT happen! 
SilverShoes was regularly seen by myself and other livery clients, both sound and eating from the bale of haylage! I was not once asked by the HO to bring either mare in from tthe field to check under rugs or wash their legs. This would have been an easy task for myself or two further livery clients that are well known to the HO. 
By her own admision the HO failed to check on the horses herself - more than twice within the first 3 months of the livery time. When paying just before xmas for all charges up to the end of December - NO attempt to check either mare was made and  NO arrangements for anybody to carry on, following the clint moving 500 miles away. 
I have long standing liveries (6 years+), an immensely experienced equine vet and blacksmith among other proffesional people who CAN and WILL vouch for the quality of service povided by this yard. 
It was my husband and two further livery clients who discovered the mare to be lame. I brought the mare in to a stable over night, the HO were contacted and the services of a vet were offered. The condition of the mare was also reported. The reply from the HO was to get a friend to transport the horse in distress delaying veterinary attention for a further 48 hours. 
The RSPCA called here yesterdy and found nothing what-so-ever wrong with the premisesn or any animal present at the property (30+ horses) and we were glad they had visited. There is no report coming from the RSPCA with regards to my part in this as no further action is required. 
Only after this whole sad situation has it come to my attention that "Silvershoes" has always been a mare who lives in with feed and rugs and regular attention. She was also always prone to mud-fever. We are now wandering if she had any existing illness or condition which may affect the other horses in the field. We are currently struggling to eceive any information with regards to blood test or postmortem results! 

This concludes my statement of facts. Feel free to comment as you have been doing, but I WILL NOT be entering any further discussion myself.


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## browbrow (23 February 2013)

ddog - seriously - get real - nothing I have said is out of order

Feel really sorry for the owner of the horse - must be so hard to loose one.

I am not rubbing salt into wound at all  - I summarised the thread giving my opinion on the situation that SHE has provided. 

And my opinion is move on and grieve about your awful loss. s right now the poor thing doesn't need heaps of keyboard warriors how may or may not know anything about the case giving fluffy and also harsh comments.

And now we have the accused YO on the forum who I equally feel sorry for.

So I think the best thing is for everyone to learn that leaving your horse 500 miles away is always a big risk. And that if you want something doing, do it yourself.

I am not apologising for my straight-talking answers  - why would I be all fluffy bunny if that's not my opinion 

I think you will find that I opened and closed my comments with sympathy for the owner of silver shoes also


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (23 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			Update for you all. 

Unfortunately she has fought her last battle and has had to be PTS. She had a reaction to all the drugs she has had and was no longer able to fight. I feel totally empty inside and wish I could have done more and especially been there for her during her last hours. RIP and sleep tight my gorgeous little Silver Shoes xxxxx
		
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I'm so so so sorry to hear this OP. 
Rest in Peace SilverShoes. 
Please don't beat yourself up about it, I'm sure you're going through enough emotional turmoil.


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## 1stclassalan (23 February 2013)

accusedyardowner said:



			I have long standing liveries (6 years+), an immensely experienced equine vet and blacksmith among other proffesional people who CAN and WILL vouch for the quality of service povided by this yard.
		
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Hmm... all of those people will only have a bearing on this case if they were in a habit of checking all the grass livery horses turned out with the poor mare. I've known a couple of hundredweight "fall off" a big cob in a fortnight though worm infestation so bad it looked as though the poor thing was pooing red cotton wool balls but severe as that was - the weight loss took 14 days - and this horse didn't die. 

All the readers here only have the evidence to go on as presented to us but for my part - even given your professed exemplary services - a horse has on the face of it - practically  
starved to death whilst left in your care and has died very soon after removal.

Methinks thou doth protest too much.


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## touchstone (23 February 2013)

accusedyardowner said:





*******************Statement of FACT ************************

As the afore mentioned YO I feel a few points need to be cleared up! SilverShoes was in the field with 8 other horses "20acres" to include in-foal mares and veterans alike. All were treated the same and have cme through winter absolutely fine. Livery clients were charged grass-livery and were informed via text message that big round bales of haylage was added to the field. No reply to the message was given.  

*I would therefore assume from this that the message either wasn't received or the owner was under the impression that the horses were being well fed and didn't feel the need to reply*

Both mares of the livery client came with shoes and it was pomised that a farrier would be organised by the clients to remove the shoes and trim the feet, However, this DID NOT happen! When one of the mares lost a rug in the bad weather the livery client was informed again via text message. The reply to this was "a local friend was organised to replace the rug" This DID NOT happen!
*In which case the horse was left without a rug while on your property - I would have replaced it myself and billed the owner - the poor horse is the one suffering*

SilverShoes was regularly seen by myself and other livery clients, both sound and eating from the bale of haylage! I was not once asked by the HO to bring either mare in from tthe field to check under rugs or wash their legs. This would have been an easy task for myself or two further livery clients that are well known to the HO. 

*In which case I would have done it for the horse's sake*

By her own admision the HO failed to check on the horses herself - more than twice within the first 3 months of the livery time. When paying just before xmas for all charges up to the end of December - NO attempt to check either mare was made and  NO arrangements for anybody to carry on, following the clint moving 500 miles away. 
I have long standing liveries (6 years+), an immensely experienced equine vet and blacksmith among other proffesional people who CAN and WILL vouch for the quality of service povided by this yard. 
It was my husband and two further livery clients who discovered the mare to be lame. I brought the mare in to a stable over night, the HO were contacted and the services of a vet were offered. The condition of the mare was also reported. The reply from the HO was to get a friend to transport the horse in distress delaying veterinary attention for a further 48 hours. 
The RSPCA called here yesterdy and found nothing what-so-ever wrong with the premisesn or any animal present at the property (30+ horses) and we were glad they had visited. There is no report coming from the RSPCA with regards to my part in this as no further action is required. 
Only after this whole sad situation has it come to my attention that "Silvershoes" has always been a mare who lives in with feed and rugs and regular attention. She was also always prone to mud-fever. We are now wandering if she had any existing illness or condition which may affect the other horses in the field. We are currently struggling to eceive any information with regards to blood test or postmortem results! 

This concludes my statement of facts. Feel free to comment as you have been doing, but I WILL NOT be entering any further discussion myself.
		
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The fact is that this horse suffered, whether from long standing neglect or a short illness, responsibility 
should have been taken and I couldn't have stood by and watched as you seem to have done.


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## DragonSlayer (23 February 2013)

1stclassalan said:



			Hmm... all of those people will only have a bearing on this case if they were in a habit of checking all the grass livery horses turned out with the poor mare. I've known a couple of hundredweight "fall off" a big cob in a fortnight though worm infestation so bad it looked as though the poor thing was pooing red cotton wool balls but severe as that was - the weight loss took 14 days - and this horse didn't die. 

All the readers here only have the evidence to go on as presented to us but for my part - even given your professed exemplary services - a horse has on the face of it - practically  
starved to death whilst left in your care and has died very soon after removal.

Methinks thou doth protest too much.
		
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I agree.

As the yard owner, why didn't you do the checks THAT DID NOT HAPPEN when you knew they weren't happening?

As an ex-livery yard owner myself, I STILL checked under rugs etc EVEN IF NOT ASKED. I could then ascertain if said horse was getting enough food and hay....

I also didn't let 'friends' come to do stuff, because invariably, it didn't happen.


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## Jax (23 February 2013)

accusedyardowner said:





*******************Statement of FACT ************************

As the afore mentioned YO I feel a few points need to be cleared up! SilverShoes was in the field with 8 other horses "20acres" to include in-foal mares and veterans alike. All were treated the same and have cme through winter absolutely fine. Livery clients were charged grass-livery and were informed via text message that big round bales of haylage was added to the field. No reply to the message was given. 
Both mares of the livery client came with shoes and it was pomised that a farrier would be organised by the clients to remove the shoes and trim the feet, However, this DID NOT happen! When one of the mares lost a rug in the bad weather the livery client was informed again via text message. The reply to this was "a local friend was organised to replace the rug" This DID NOT happen! 
SilverShoes was regularly seen by myself and other livery clients, both sound and eating from the bale of haylage! I was not once asked by the HO to bring either mare in from tthe field to check under rugs or wash their legs. This would have been an easy task for myself or two further livery clients that are well known to the HO. 
By her own admision the HO failed to check on the horses herself - more than twice within the first 3 months of the livery time. When paying just before xmas for all charges up to the end of December - NO attempt to check either mare was made and  NO arrangements for anybody to carry on, following the clint moving 500 miles away. 
I have long standing liveries (6 years+), an immensely experienced equine vet and blacksmith among other proffesional people who CAN and WILL vouch for the quality of service povided by this yard. 
It was my husband and two further livery clients who discovered the mare to be lame. I brought the mare in to a stable over night, the HO were contacted and the services of a vet were offered. The condition of the mare was also reported. The reply from the HO was to get a friend to transport the horse in distress delaying veterinary attention for a further 48 hours. 
The RSPCA called here yesterdy and found nothing what-so-ever wrong with the premisesn or any animal present at the property (30+ horses) and we were glad they had visited. There is no report coming from the RSPCA with regards to my part in this as no further action is required. 
Only after this whole sad situation has it come to my attention that "Silvershoes" has always been a mare who lives in with feed and rugs and regular attention. She was also always prone to mud-fever. We are now wandering if she had any existing illness or condition which may affect the other horses in the field. We are currently struggling to eceive any information with regards to blood test or postmortem results! 

This concludes my statement of facts. Feel free to comment as you have been doing, but I WILL NOT be entering any further discussion myself.
		
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Not knowing the full facts but can I add a few points?...

You accepted payment for livery?

you was able to access and see this equine?

you could and would have seen any neglect/health issues?

you could have first alerted the owner and then raised the issue further?

Way I see it, you are akin to running a day care for children, I expect if you saw/monitored them for abuse/improper treatment the same then it should have been raised sooner rather than later.


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## Shadow the Reindeer (23 February 2013)

accusedyardowner you owe a duty of care to that horse, and you let that horse down. It breaks my heart to know someone could just standby and not even get the vet out when clearly the horse needed it, whether the owner consented or not, the horse's health and life is a priority.


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## Tormenta (23 February 2013)

I would not want to be in your shoes as the YO of this yard! I have absolutely no sympathy for you or your reasoning and excuses. A horse does not become emaciated in 24 hours. Sonething was badly wrong here whether through illness or lack of care and no doubt this mare suffered. Even on grass livery a horse with a rug on should be checked at the least on a daily basis! So whether the owner answered her texts or didn't, visited often enough, paid enough blah blah blah. YOU as the main carer and YO failed that horse, on your conscience be it, hope you can sleep well at night.


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## crabbymare (23 February 2013)

accusedyardowner you say that youknew the owner was not visiting the horse you knew she had moved 500 miles away you were charging for livery and hay and you did not check the horse properly??  you knew you were in charge of the horse and failed miserably in your duty so whatever the reason for the horse losing weight YOU should have noticed and taken action including letting the owner know and either feeding more or calling a vet. if my clients thought I would let their horses suffer because they were unable to visit I would be out of business very quickly


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## honetpot (23 February 2013)

"As the afore mentioned YO I feel a few points need to be cleared up! SilverShoes was in the field with 8 other horses "20acres" to include in-foal mares and veterans alike. All were treated the same and have cme through winter absolutely fine. Livery clients were charged grass-livery and were informed via text message that big round bales of haylage was added to the field. No reply to the message was given. 
Both mares of the livery client came with shoes and it was pomised that a farrier would be organised by the clients to remove the shoes and trim the feet, However, this DID NOT happen! When one of the mares lost a rug in the bad weather the livery client was informed again via text message. The reply to this was "a local friend was organised to replace the rug" This DID NOT happen! 
SilverShoes was regularly seen by myself and other livery clients, both sound and eating from the bale of haylage! I was not once asked by the HO to bring either mare in from tthe field to check under rugs or wash their legs. This would have been an easy task for myself or two further livery clients that are well known to the HO. 
By her own admision the HO failed to check on the horses herself - more than twice within the first 3 months of the livery time. When paying just before xmas for all charges up to the end of December - NO attempt to check either mare was made and NO arrangements for anybody to carry on, following the clint moving 500 miles away. 
I have long standing liveries (6 years+), an immensely experienced equine vet and blacksmith among other proffesional people who CAN and WILL vouch for the quality of service povided by this yard. 
It was my husband and two further livery clients who discovered the mare to be lame. I brought the mare in to a stable over night, the HO were contacted and the services of a vet were offered. The condition of the mare was also reported. The reply from the HO was to get a friend to transport the horse in distress delaying veterinary attention for a further 48 hours. 
The RSPCA called here yesterdy and found nothing what-so-ever wrong with the premisesn or any animal present at the property (30+ horses) and we were glad they had visited. There is no report coming from the RSPCA with regards to my part in this as no further action is required. 
Only after this whole sad situation has it come to my attention that "Silvershoes" has always been a mare who lives in with feed and rugs and regular attention. She was also always prone to mud-fever. We are now wandering if she had any existing illness or condition which may affect the other horses in the field. We are currently struggling to eceive any information with regards to blood test or postmortem results! "

I do not know what planet you are living on but most caring people who have been left an animal in their care paid or unpaid would be checking the animal for weight loss, getting their feet trimmed, rugging if nessessary, calling the vet if needed and worrying about the money later. I have only a small amount of equines but I have 3 bins of spare rugs.
 Its so easy to send someone a picture by phone or e-mail as I did the other day as I have a pony on loan and her owner was asking how she was doing. I am non tecqi but it took 5 mins.
 I employ people to look after my horses in my abscence, I leave them with details of my vet and permission to call my vet if they are concerned, if you are an experienced YO understand why these proceedures where not in place and used.
 Just because someone doesn't visit or ring on a regular basis doesn't mean they do not care, they just think you know what you are doing and would be in contact if something is wrong.
 The poor mare is dead, if it had happened on my land I would be mortified what ever the cause and would understand the owner being upset and angrey even if I had done everything possible to maintain the horses welfare.


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## doriangrey (23 February 2013)

OMG couldn't be the worst type of trolling ever could it?  I hope not, I only posted to the OP about how sorry I was about the loss of her beautiful mare ... but then it's getting worse.  Hope it's not turning into a trollfest


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## rockysmum (23 February 2013)

doriangrey said:



			OMG couldn't be the worst type of trolling ever could it?  I hope not, I only posted to the OP about how sorry I was about the loss of her beautiful mare ... but then it's getting worse.  Hope it's not turning into a trollfest 

Click to expand...

Well the latest one does have a lot of similarities to concernedyardowner earlier.  I thought she was a troll or the YO, I think its the same person, but which she is I dont know.


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## diamonddogs (23 February 2013)

And I certainly wouldn't be crowing about the RSPCA taking no further action either.

Whilst have have the greatest respect for the RSPCA where small animals are concerned, they have shown time and again to have their heads up their arses where horses are concerned.

So you couldn't find a spare rug to chuck on the poor horse? Sorry, but I'm still on OP's side here as I've read nothing in your post that convinces me that you acted correctly and in this mare's best interests at any time.

My YO keeps scrupulous records of every horse on the yard, and as well as owner's details, she has contact details for each horse's vet, farrier and dentist, and each livery has to sign to give her permission to call on professional services if she is unable to contact the owner for any reason. 

My horse was off colour early last week. I was phoned at 7.30am as I'd arranged for a friend to turn her out that morning, after checking her over and a discussion it was agreed that I would go to work (it was only my second day in a new job, so time off would have been awkward but do-able, and I was ten minutes away) and I would be called if required. YO and her daughter watched my horse all day, turning out and bringing in two or three times throughout the day, and generally attending to her every need, including a full muckout and new deep bed, until I got back from work. And how much extra went on my bill for all this additional care? Not one single penny - it was done because they CARED.


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## russianhorse (23 February 2013)

Shadeyoak said:



			accusedyardowner you owe a duty of care to that horse, and you let that horse down. It breaks my heart to know someone could just standby and not even get the vet out when clearly the horse needed it, whether the owner consented or not, the horse's health and life is a priority.
		
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Tormenta said:



			I would not want to be in your shoes as the YO of this yard! I have absolutely no sympathy for you or your reasoning and excuses. A horse does not become emaciated in 24 hours. Sonething was badly wrong here whether through illness or lack of care and no doubt this mare suffered. Even on grass livery a horse with a rug on should be checked at the least on a daily basis! So whether the owner answered her texts or didn't, visited often enough, paid enough blah blah blah. YOU as the main carer and YO failed that horse, on your conscience be it, hope you can sleep well at night.
		
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crabbymare said:



			accusedyardowner you say that youknew the owner was not visiting the horse you knew she had moved 500 miles away you were charging for livery and hay and you did not check the horse properly??  you knew you were in charge of the horse and failed miserably in your duty so whatever the reason for the horse losing weight YOU should have noticed and taken action including letting the owner know and either feeding more or calling a vet. if my clients thought I would let their horses suffer because they were unable to visit I would be out of business very quickly 

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DragonSlayer said:



			I agree.

As the yard owner, why didn't you do the checks THAT DID NOT HAPPEN when you knew they weren't happening?

As an ex-livery yard owner myself, I STILL checked under rugs etc EVEN IF NOT ASKED. I could then ascertain if said horse was getting enough food and hay....

I also didn't let 'friends' come to do stuff, because invariably, it didn't happen.
		
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^^ All these

It honestly makes me feel sick to the stomach that you accusedyardowner, sat back and left this horse to be so neglected it could barely stand when picked up

payment aside (which you happily took) I would never never ever not bother checking a horse over - and would/have provided necessities out of my own pocket - YOU could have added it to the liveries bill if anything

Your excuses are pathetic, and quite frankly makes you worse than I originally thought


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## Cobber (23 February 2013)

russianhorse said:



			^^ All these

It honestly makes me feel sick to the stomach that you accusedyardowner, sat back and left this horse to be so neglected it could barely stand when picked up

payment aside (which you happily took) I would never never ever not bother checking a horse over - and would/have provided necessities out of my own pocket - YOU could have added it to the liveries bill if anything

Your excuses are pathetic, and quite frankly makes you worse than I originally thought 

Click to expand...

Agree 100% Regardless of if owner said horse was being checked it was still on your land and you watched it starve or develop an illness or whatever it was that unfortunately killed the horse. 

Doesnt matter if RSPCA came and ok'd your yard, it doesnt change what has happened.

And Concernedyardowner and Accusedyardowner are the same Im sure. Both refer to ss as HO

Sorry OP for your loss of a lovely horse


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## tessybear (23 February 2013)

Sorry to hear of the loss of horse OP

however i must say something with the "accusedyardowner" and other "yardowner"  are ringing troll alarm bells in my head ?


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## zigzag (23 February 2013)

When I ran a livery yard, the rule was, vet was called first then the owner.


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## Honey08 (23 February 2013)

I think both posters are the same person (both ...yardowners).

If I had text to say that a horse had lost a rug, and the owner hadn't done anything, and I thought the horse was suffering, I would text again, and again, reading them the riot act if need be, until they blimmin well did do something.  Even more so if I thought the horse needed a vet.

I used to have DIYs.  I had one livery who had her horse out with a thick rug in hot sun, the owner was at work, I took the rug off as the horse was sweating - the horse's comfort and wellbeing came first..

My horses are going on livery for a week while I'm abroad, I will discuss with the YO who my vet is and give them my permission to call them if they can't get hold of me in an emergency.  Every box will be ticked so we both know exactly where we stand and what would happen in an emergency.


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## Mearas (23 February 2013)

I am so very sad for your loss Silvershoes.

TBH it is beyond my understanding that anyone can watch a horse get into this state irrespective of money responsibility etc. I really don't understand why the YO or others liveries did not contact you to say that the horse was not doing well. As others have already posted if a horse is suffering hte vet should be called no matter what.


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## Mariposa (23 February 2013)

Firstly, I'm very sorry for your loss Silvershoes. 

Secondly, to the 'accusedyardowner' - I hope and pray I never send a horse to any livery yard which is run with someone with an attitude like yours. 

If a horse needs attention, and is under your care, you give that horse attention.You are paid to give that horse attention. You are paid to care for that horse. That's it. There is no excuse for not checking under rugs, not checking a horse is ok - especially in this awful weather. No excuse. It doesn't matter if the owner is 500 or 5 miles away, you have a responsibility to look after that animal whilst it is under your care.

There really isn't any way to justify your lack of care in my opinion.


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## tessybear (23 February 2013)

What i want to know is how many brain cells the YO is lacking or the ability to feel an animals pain to simply not care. From what they have said if it is in fact them and not a "troll", they ignored the state of said mare and left her to it. Did the mare ask for this care? I think not it's a shame really the poor girl had to be put through this Im damn sure if it was role reversal the horse would have looked after YO. 

I do not think YO should be allowed near animals never mind running a bloody yard full of them, as they are clearly to idiotic to realise when an animal that relies on us is screaming out for help.  It really makes me worry for society when i see things like that, surely as an animal lover you would take money out of your own pocket or put it on the bill to get the poor girl what she needs ?

Its a shame really that she was let down in such a cruel way, run free and enjoy your time beautiful mare xx


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## Jax (23 February 2013)

As I said earlier, think the YO should have done something/taken responsibility over this.  


I am sorry to hear of the final outcome


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## diamonddogs (23 February 2013)

accusedyardowner said:



			...We are now wandering if she had any existing illness or condition which may affect the other horses in the field...
		
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Ooops my bad - missed this bit when I first read it. So only now do you start thinking about the health of the horses still alive now, hmmmm? Maybe if you'd bothered to get the vet out to the mare yourself you wouldn't need to (the word you need is) wonder, would you, because you would have known.




			This concludes my statement of facts. Feel free to comment as you have been doing, but I WILL NOT be entering any further discussion myself.
		
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Well, courage of convictions sadly lacking here, I think. She doesn't sound very friendly towards OP does she?


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## Spring Feather (23 February 2013)

What a mess!  I can only reiterate; that poor, poor mare   She was very badly let down by everyone it seems.


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## viewfromahill (24 February 2013)

Totally agree with spring feather, I have two tbs who have lived out this winter on unlimited hay, rugged up and both are looking well, however a hardy pony we noticed wasnt eating, brought pony in to find mild mud fever but still enough to make her not want to move so she wasnt eating although their was plenty of hay for her, during such a bad winter it is hard to judge who is at fault maybe yo knew the mare had food but genuinely didnt realise she was not eating it and in such bad times owner should have been up front with livery money when so far away, but mistakes do happen and lets hope both parties and everyone posting will be more diligent because of it


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## MerrySherryRider (24 February 2013)

Agree Spring Feather.


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## hairycob (24 February 2013)

One thing that strikes me regarding YO post (apart from I never want to leave my horses in her "care")is the total reliance on text. It's something that we hear so much now. Maybe it's because I'm old but if something is urgent/important/you havn't had a response to a text surely you phone &, you know, talk. Eg the promised rug didn't arrive. How was OP supposed to know 500 miles away?
We all know texts aren't totally reliable, especially in rural areas. I can think of a recent example where I received a text from someone saying they were running a bit late 3 hours after they left me!


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## 1stclassalan (24 February 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			What a mess!  I can only reiterate; that poor, poor mare .........
		
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I agree with this part of your post 100%.

As this is now 2013 - after the well publicised cases of cruelty and neglect - I am amazed that this kind of thing could happen and then have a presumably knowledgeable and previously respected YO seeking to not only to justify but to exonerate herself by passing the buck.

In my youth, I had much experience of presumed horseypeople who should not have been left in charge of a dead rat! I'm afraid most of these awful folk collected horses for the meat trade and just threw them into fields whilly-nilly to fend for themselves. There were gypsy types who staked out horses just about anywhere and didn't check what the poor animal had managed to do with the chain! And one old woman who was well known in the area for hiring out but didn't really have much clue and kept some of her charges in amazingly cramped conditions - old tractor export boxes in her back garden! Of course, the latter was Heaven to me as a young'un but I soon learnt that these things were not ideal!

I visited other places at which the entire operation seemed to run by other children who did what they liked with the horses and ponies almost feral - I'd go so far to say that this was so prevalent that it was the norm. Those at grass, were literally turned out and largely forgotten - I can certainly remember finding one complete skeleton and reporting it back to the owners only to have them say - "arh, you might find a few more out there somewhere, there's a few go over every year." This might seem callous to us but these were simple people with the first priority being to make money out of their animals - they had no intention of spending anything but minimal money on them and the odd death was accepted as the natural run of things. Life remember was much tougher even for the humans.

We now live in mostly better times - especially where animal welfare is concerned and NO ONE should be in any doubt where responsibilites lie - there is a bit of "For Whom The Bell Tolls" about every case but I am in no doubt about this one.


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## diamonddogs (24 February 2013)

Admittedly there are areas where there's been misunderstandings but surely they should have been cleared up as soon as they arose, eg no arrangements discussed beyond December? Did it not occur to YO to clarify when no payment was made and the horses weren't collected?

I'm still shocked and disgusted that a sick horse was left without adequate care, be it for six weeks or six hours. In my world it would be the YO taking the OP to court for unpaid livery costs and vet bills because she gave essential round the clock care to the horse, not the OP needing to sue for compensation because she didn't.

Sorry, but if the upkeep of the animals in your care depends entirely on the owner's ability or willingness to pay, you're in the wrong job, though I wouldn't trust you to run a car park let alone a livery yard.


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## emz-loves-orses (24 February 2013)

Personally, I do not think you have all read the yard owners statement clearly.... It is evident from both parties that the mare WAS checked regularly and was in good health for majority of time spent. The yard owner was indeed communicating with the horse owner, but this was not reciprocated. And just because text messages were sent it doesn't state that nothing was done.. The yard owner did act upon the illness of the mare, but this local friend seemed to intervene and cause more harm than good. 
To my mind, the yard owner has presented facts only, trying to show that this wee lass with her horse was not attentive to its welfare herself? Why was the mare moved in a distressed state instead of allowing the vet time to attend? Why have results been with held when the welfare of other animals is possibly at stake?
I think the horse owner - who was local for 3 of the 4 + 1/2 month livery has a lot to answer to, instead of this never ending plea for sympathy!!


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## touchstone (24 February 2013)

emz-loves-orses said:



			Personally, I do not think you have all read the yard owners statement clearly.... It is evident from both parties that the mare WAS checked regularly and was in good health for majority of time spent. The yard owner was indeed communicating with the horse owner, but this was not reciprocated. And just because text messages were sent it doesn't state that nothing was done.. The yard owner did act upon the illness of the mare, but this local friend seemed to intervene and cause more harm than good. 
To my mind, the yard owner has presented facts only, trying to show that this wee lass with her horse was not attentive to its welfare herself? Why was the mare moved in a distressed state instead of allowing the vet time to attend? Why have results been with held when the welfare of other animals is possibly at stake?
I think the horse owner - who was local for 3 of the 4 + 1/2 month livery has a lot to answer to, instead of this never ending plea for sympathy!!
		
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I'm sorry, but 'regularly checked' horses do not become so emaciated that they die and develop mud fever to the extent that they cannot walk - the YO actually states that the horse was *not* checked under her rug, or her legs cleaned as the owner hadn't bothered - neither had she.

There are no excuses for such an apalling lack of care or concern and I am also beginning to suspect that there may be some sick trolling going on here.
Shame she didn't show the 'concern' about the mare that she is apparently showing the remaining horses. I suspect if it was something contagious you'd have known by now.


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## emz-loves-orses (24 February 2013)

Actually my own tb gelding went downhill within 48 hours, weight loss and lameness. Vet called, teeth fine and bloods taken.... A particular worm was resistant to the wormers I had used. All sorted but 2 months to look as good as he had before..... Why are we sending the message that it is OK to dump animals on owners of large yards and not take care of them ourselves?


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## 1stclassalan (24 February 2013)

emz-loves-orses said:



			Personally, I do not think you have all read the yard owners statement clearly...
		
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O, come,come Miss Nugent bless us with your insight, I for one have read the entire missive several times - spelling and typos accepted and have gained what feel to be the YO's opinion. Opinion, mark you, not a Statement of Facts as she writes.




			It is evident from both parties that the mare WAS checked regularly and was in good health for majority of time spent.
		
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"Evident" from what? These are words in response to the accusation that she is responsible for letting a horse become morbidly emaciated - I fear that we all could debate the true meaning of the word "regular" until the legs fell off all donkeys and there would still be folk ( like the Huhn jury ) that still need educating as to Modern English Usage. Outwintered horses at my old yard were checked by me TWICE a day ( I was only another livery not the owner) rugs straightened etc.,etc., the owner hayed every day and used to go the extra trouble of placing more dollops out than horses in the paddock to prevent the intimidation that can go on at feeding times. I'd say that our outstock were checked at least ten times every day - and we still had the occasional drama - they're horses after all. So what's this YO's version of "regularly."




			The yard owner was indeed communicating with the horse owner, but this was not reciprocated. And just because text messages were sent it doesn't state that nothing was done..
		
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Even checkable events in this case will never become the subject of proper investigation. The Air Accident Investigation Board know what the helicopter pilot ( the one that flew into that crane in London) was doing virtually second by second by authenticated facts - no one will do that amount of delving here so mentions of texts or what they might have been are largely subjective.




			The yard owner did act upon the illness of the mare,
		
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Yes, most pilots do too - even the incompetent ones. I'd equate the sudden sight of a horse that can hardly stand - with the big RED FLASHING - MASTER CAUTION! 




			To my mind, the yard owner has presented facts only, trying to show that this...... wee lass .......
		
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O, ho,ho, a gross overstatement followed by what? A certain prejudice against Scottish girls? I'm beginning to form an opinion of you.




			Why was the mare moved in a distressed state instead of allowing the vet time to attend?
		
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Oh contrare - why wasn't the Vet called immediately the state of the horse was noticed?




			Why have results been with held when the welfare of other animals is possibly at stake?
		
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Are you sure that they have been "witheld"?




			.......instead of this never ending plea for sympathy!!
		
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Look - I'm one of the few posters here that stood up against the tide of rant & ravings about Jimmy Savil in favour of proper evidence and the difference between it and heresay - so I'm not given to jumping on popular bandwagons but the overwhelming smoking gun here is:- the one true fact - the poor horse died!


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## 1stclassalan (24 February 2013)

emz-loves-orses said:



			Actually my own tb gelding went downhill within 48 hours, weight loss and lameness. ......?
		
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Downhill - yes, lameness - yes, weight loss?...Hmmm... 48 hoooouuurs? Hmmm?? 
What did your poor horse have? Cholera? 

Big horses DO NOT lose sufficient weight to be life threatening in 48 hours so don't seek to cloud the issue with irrelevent anecdotes. 

A livery I knew with a Shire type cob let him drop about two hundredweight - (which I noticed immediately on return from a rare holiday) and this was caused by resistant blood worms (godsknows why he didn't notice!) but the emphasis here is: a FORTNIGHT - two whole weeks, rather more realistic timescale.


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## touchstone (24 February 2013)

emz-loves-orses said:



			Actually my own tb gelding went downhill within 48 hours, weight loss and lameness. Vet called, teeth fine and bloods taken.... A particular worm was resistant to the wormers I had used. All sorted but 2 months to look as good as he had before..... Why are we sending the message that it is OK to dump animals on owners of large yards and not take care of them ourselves?
		
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We aren't sending that message at all, the message we are sending is that it is NOT okay to just leave animals to suffer - difference in your case of a horse going downhill in 48 hours is that a vet was called; a 'luxury' this poor mare desperately needed and didn't get.

If a horse is dumped on your property you can't just abandon it because the owner has - you look after it and inform the relevant authorities, and monies owed can be sought out at a later date.  I am amazed that anyone would think it was ok to just leave the horse to it because the owner wasn't there.
 A YO should also be savvy enough to deal with this situation which could well occur in todays economic climate.

I took in a stray pony a couple of years ago and made sure it was fed and watered and basic needs met, if it had needed a vet I would have contacted WHW and taken it from there or paid myself if funds were permitting.   

I find it childish that the 'yo' is so keen to exonerate herself from any blame when that the poor mare is the one who has paid the ultimate price.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (24 February 2013)

accusedyardowner said:





*******************Statement of FACT ************************

As the afore mentioned YO I feel a few points need to be cleared up! SilverShoes was in the field with 8 other horses "20acres" to include in-foal mares and veterans alike. All were treated the same and have cme through winter absolutely fine. Livery clients were charged grass-livery and were informed via text message that big round bales of haylage was added to the field. No reply to the message was given.

So you left it at that?? Didnt follow up?? Moving house can be stressful and take up alot of time and the horses were still on YOUR land??

Both mares of the livery client came with shoes and it was pomised that a farrier would be organised by the clients to remove the shoes and trim the feet, However, this DID NOT happen! When one of the mares lost a rug in the bad weather the livery client was informed again via text message. The reply to this was "a local friend was organised to replace the rug" This DID NOT happen! 

Again so you left it at that???? No follow up??

SilverShoes was regularly seen by myself and other livery clients, both sound and eating from the bale of haylage! I was not once asked by the HO to bring either mare in from tthe field to check under rugs or wash their legs. This would have been an easy task for myself or two further livery clients that are well known to the HO.

So because you werent asked to do it you didnt? Even just go up in the field and stick a hand under the rug? Would have taken what 5mins?? 

By her own admision the HO failed to check on the horses herself - more than twice within the first 3 months of the livery time. When paying just before xmas for all charges up to the end of December - NO attempt to check either mare was made and  NO arrangements for anybody to carry on, following the clint moving 500 miles away. 

I have long standing liveries (6 years+), an immensely experienced equine vet and blacksmith among other proffesional people who CAN and WILL vouch for the quality of service povided by this yard. 
It was my husband and two further livery clients who discovered the mare to be lame. I brought the mare in to a stable over night, the HO were contacted and the services of a vet were offered. The condition of the mare was also reported. The reply from the HO was to get a friend to transport the horse in distress delaying veterinary attention for a further 48 hours. 
The RSPCA called here yesterdy and found nothing what-so-ever wrong with the premisesn or any animal present at the property (30+ horses) and we were glad they had visited. There is no report coming from the RSPCA with regards to my part in this as no further action is required. 
Only after this whole sad situation has it come to my attention that "Silvershoes" has always been a mare who lives in with feed and rugs and regular attention. She was also always prone to mud-fever. We are now wandering if she had any existing illness or condition which may affect the other horses in the field. We are currently struggling to eceive any information with regards to blood test or postmortem results! 

This concludes my statement of facts. Feel free to comment as you have been doing, but I WILL NOT be entering any further discussion myself.
		
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So basically regardless of saying you are an experienced YO you didnt think to check the horse over, even for your own peace of mind. The horse was on your yard, you didnt tell the OP to come and remove the horse you just left it in the field. You knew the owner wasnt around but you didnt check on the horse anyways?? I mean what YO would let an animal come to that state on their land? i dont know any personally, i worked on a yard for over ten years and there was one horse who was basically dumped on there, owner never appeared not once in the first 5 years I was there. The yard fed the horse, had its feet done and it wanted for nothing was treated like a paying livery even though not a penny was coming their way for it. It was on full livery everything catered for and again NO MONEY CHANGING HANDS. We did it because it wasnt the horses fault the owner wasnt around.

Claiming you werent paid for services DOESNT excuse guilt of letting an animal get to that stage when it could have been easily avoided by you checking the mare. Im not saying the OP is blameless but your hand are certainly looking the dirtiest right now.


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## touchstone (24 February 2013)

The YO might do well to take note of this article:-



Q.  I own a yard where we have horses for backing, breaking and training.  A new client sent us her horse on full training livery and signed our standard agreement, but she has recently become elusive over payment and isnt returning calls or visiting.  Were becoming concerned that the horse has been abandoned, so how do we stand legally?

A.  Sadly, people do abandon their horses with yards when they face financial trouble and the situation you describe is becoming more and more common; I get many calls from yard owners who have horses in their care but have not been paid for weeks, or in some cases, months.  My advice is to check what your agreement says about non-payment, particularly whether it contains an express right to sell the horse in settlement of outstanding bills.  *If it doesnt theres no general legal right to sell another persons horse, although there is a statutory obligation to look after its welfare and, in consequence, incur costs.* 

*This obligation arises under the Animal Welfare Act 2006, which, briefly, makes it a criminal offence to allow a horse for which youre responsible to suffer.  You dont need to be the animals owner to be guilty of an offence.  Put simply, even if your client hasnt paid you have to care for the horse.*  Subject to this, you should write to your client making it clear that you wont be performing the training part of the agreement because of her failure to pay.  Refer to your standard agreement, which ought to make payment of bills a condition of training.  You should also make it clear that while youll continue to care for the horse (feed, water, exercise, etc) shell be billed for all costs incurred.  In all cases, you need to keep detailed records of costs.  Try to visit the clients last known address and / or call them at home or work to find out whats going on.  You need to avoid a confrontation, as there may be a legitimate reason for lack of contact or visits.  You should find out the position before taking any formal legal steps that could include court proceedings, returning the horse to the client (this saves the cost of caring for it) or reaching a new agreement.  Presently, you have no concrete evidence that the owner has abandoned her horse and this is why you should find out why shes proving elusive.  Ultimately, you could sue her for all unpaid bills and costs you incur but this takes time and money. 

Questions answered by  Martineau solicitors www.martineau-uk.com If you have a legal question you would like answered, e-mail it to editor@horsedeals.co.uk


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## Luci07 (24 February 2013)

I have read it all the way through. We have a full TB mare who lives out. She get 2 feeds a day, adlib Haylage and properly rugged. She also got a bit of mud fever which was a pain for the owner but sorted. She looks very well but has certainly needed a lot of care and monitoring. She drops weight easily so was checked pretty daily just for condition. She would not have made it through on grass, thin rugs and maybe some extra Haylage, neither did you need to be hugely experienced to have worked that out of the start of winter. Very sad outcome


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## MerrySherryRider (24 February 2013)

accusedyardowner said:





*******************Statement of FACT ************************

As the afore mentioned YO I feel a few points need to be cleared up! SilverShoes was in the field with 8 other horses "20acres" to include in-foal mares and veterans alike. All were treated the same and have cme through winter absolutely fine. Livery clients were charged grass-livery and were informed via text message that big round bales of haylage was added to the field. No reply to the message was given. 
Both mares of the livery client came with shoes and it was pomised that a farrier would be organised by the clients to remove the shoes and trim the feet, However, this DID NOT happen!

Why did the owner not make arrangements for the farrier to visit as agreed ?

When one of the mares lost a rug in the bad weather the livery client was informed again via text message. The reply to this was "a local friend was organised to replace the rug" This DID NOT happen!

Did the owner not check that the 'friend had replaced the rug ? I know I certainly would. We do not know if the YO put a spare rug on the mare while waiting for the non arrival of the friend, she does not say.

SilverShoes was regularly seen by myself and other livery clients, both sound and eating from the bale of haylage! I was not once asked by the HO to bring either mare in from tthe field to check under rugs or wash their legs. This would have been an easy task for myself or two further livery clients that are well known to the HO.

It seems that the owner made no arrangements for the mare to receive the daily care that she had been used to before being left. No arrangement to bring in and feed, check her legs which the owner knew were prone to mud fever. Wouldn't you ask for feeds to continue rather than just suddenly stop them ?


By her own admision the HO failed to check on the horses herself - more than twice within the first 3 months of the livery time. When paying just before xmas for all charges up to the end of December - NO attempt to check either mare was made and  NO arrangements for anybody to carry on, following the clint moving 500 miles away.

How long would it have taken for the owner to walk to the field and take a look at the mare ? Doesn't it strike anyone else as slightly odd that the horse was not checked when she was on the yard ?


I have long standing liveries (6 years+), an immensely experienced equine vet and blacksmith among other proffesional people who CAN and WILL vouch for the quality of service povided by this yard. 
It was my husband and two further livery clients who discovered the mare to be lame. I brought the mare in to a stable over night, the HO were contacted and the services of a vet were offered. The condition of the mare was also reported. The reply from the HO was to get a friend to transport the horse in distress delaying veterinary attention for a further 48 hours.

Really ?? For a horse in distress, wouldn't most people take the YO's offer of immediate treatment from the vet ?


The RSPCA called here yesterdy and found nothing what-so-ever wrong with the premisesn or any animal present at the property (30+ horses) and we were glad they had visited. There is no report coming from the RSPCA with regards to my part in this as no further action is required. 
Only after this whole sad situation has it come to my attention that "Silvershoes" has always been a mare who lives in with feed and rugs and regular attention. She was also always prone to mud-fever. We are now wandering if she had any existing illness or condition which may affect the other horses in the field. We are currently struggling to eceive any information with regards to blood test or postmortem results! 

This concludes my statement of facts. Feel free to comment as you have been doing, but I WILL NOT be entering any further discussion myself.
		
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Although, I sympathise with the mare's owner and certainly feel the YO could have done more, it does seem that the blame is not all on the YO. 
 Whether the horse was acutely ill or had been progressively ill, we do not know, but if there been better communication by both parties and immediate action by the OP when told that the horse was ill, or even when told of the  need for the farrier and rug replacement, perhaps the outcome might have been different.


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## Mariposa (24 February 2013)

emz-loves-orses said:



			. Why are we sending the message that it is OK to dump animals on owners of large yards and not take care of them ourselves?
		
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Actually...if you are paying someone to look after your horse that's exactly what they should be doing. If that person has a 'large yard' and can't take on care of a extra horse don't take it on! If you are a livery business, your job is taking care of horses in your care....its really not rocket science is it? 

Is every person on here who has a horse at full or grass livery guilty of 'dumping' their horse on a yard? If so I'm guilty too, I have a horse on grass livery in Cornwall, I live in London. Do I get to see her daily? No. I trust and pay the yard owner to look after her....that's what I pay her for ( and she does a very good job of it too!)


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## diamonddogs (24 February 2013)

horserider said:



			By her own admision the HO failed to check on the horses herself - more than twice within the first 3 months of the livery time. When paying just before xmas for all charges up to the end of December - NO attempt to check either mare was made and NO arrangements for anybody to carry on, *following the clint moving 500 miles away*.

How long would it have taken for the owner to walk to the field and take a look at the mare ? Doesn't it strike anyone else as slightly odd that the horse was not checked when she was on the yard ?

Click to expand...

Me and my OH just worked it out - about five days: assuming it's a four hour drive at average 60mph, and the average person could walk at 5mph, and allowing for rest breaks and possible overnight stops. But without breaks, approximately 48 hours.

And yes, it strikes everyone here as absolutely flaming disgusting, not "odd" the horse wasn't checked. That's why the horse died, and why everyone is screaming for blood.

You obviously haven't even read the post you're replying to properly, let alone the whole thread, so I suggest you go away and read the complete thread, then come back with some sensible, informed comments.


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## zigzag (24 February 2013)

diamonddogs said:



			Me and my OH just worked it out - about five days: assuming it's a four hour drive at average 60mph, and the average person could walk at 5mph, and allowing for rest breaks and possible overnight stops. But without breaks, approximately 48 hours.

And yes, it strikes everyone here as absolutely flaming disgusting, not "odd" the horse wasn't checked. That's why the horse died, and why everyone is screaming for blood.

You obviously haven't even read the post you're replying to properly, let alone the whole thread, so I suggest you go away and read the complete thread, then come back with some sensible, informed comments.
		
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reading that post, I think.. the owner didn't check the horse a few times on livery before she moved away.. that's how I read it


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## MerrySherryRider (24 February 2013)

diamonddogs said:



			Me and my OH just worked it out - about five days: assuming it's a four hour drive at average 60mph, and the average person could walk at 5mph, and allowing for rest breaks and possible overnight stops. But without breaks, approximately 48 hours.

And yes, it strikes everyone here as absolutely flaming disgusting, not "odd" the horse wasn't checked. That's why the horse died, and why everyone is screaming for blood.

You obviously haven't even read the post you're replying to properly, let alone the whole thread, so I suggest you go away and read the complete thread, then come back with some sensible, informed comments.
		
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Excuse me ? Perhaps you might like to take the time to read the post yourself. 


The owner failed to check the horses more than twice during the first 3 months and when paying livery charges just before Christmas, failed again to check the horses or make arrangements for anyone to take over the daily needs of the horses. 
 The post infers that the owner was present on the yard when paying the bill, which is not so unlikely as many people return home to visit at Christmas.
Even if she wasn't physically present, are you justifying the apparent lack of interest shown regarding the mare's wellbeing ?
 Would you leave a horse over winter in a field knowing it was used to daily feeds, was prone to mudfever, without a spare rug and without organising a farrier  ?
 Wouldn't you arrange for someone to care for  daily needs rather than leaving it in a field, relying on visual checks by the YO and other liveries and just grazing ? 
 Wouldn't you ring regularly to make sure all was well and nothing was needed ? 

Perhaps you wouldn't. I certainly would.
Neither would I leave a horse on grass livery over winter on a yard where the only hay put out, was when it snowed, unless it was a retired good doer that never got fed bucket feeds.

Why was the YO never asked to provide services ? 
Wouldn't most people leave instructions and pay for extra services ? 

 The YO, the liveries who saw the horse daily, the OP's friends and the OP all played a part in this sorry tale and the horse paid the price.


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## diamonddogs (24 February 2013)

horserider said:



			...Would you leave a horse over winter in a field knowing it was used to daily feeds, was prone to mudfever, without a spare rug and without organising a farrier  ?
 Wouldn't you arrange for someone to care for  daily needs rather than leaving it in a field, relying on visual checks by the YO and other liveries and just grazing ? 
 Wouldn't you ring regularly to make sure all was well and nothing was needed ? 

*Perhaps you wouldn't...*

Click to expand...

I wouldn't make emotive statements like that if I were you, though I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant it as a figure of speech and not a reflection on my horse management.

My understanding of this saga is what I've learned from being involved in the thread from the beginning, not just the last few pages. I understood that all this had been done, and the horse was left lacking.

Whoever is right and whoever is wrong here, a tragedy has taken place and perhaps we'll never learn the true story. All I know is, a horse died needlessly, and I can't get how she must have suffered out of my head.

This story will haunt me for a long time.


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## Mearas (24 February 2013)

diamonddogs said:



			Whoever is right and whoever is wrong here, a tragedy has taken place and perhaps we'll never learn the true story. All I know is, a horse died needlessly, and I can't get how she must have suffered out of my head.
		
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^^^absolutley agree diamonddogs


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## silvershoes (24 February 2013)

Well, it was only a matter of time before the island knew about this thread. So, just to clear a few things up for the newbies...

As for all the text messages I could easily just screen shot them and post them on here to show that every message was replied to, but I'll save the YO more embarassment. 

As for you saying I never asked for you to bring the horse in and wash her legs etc. No I didnt ask for this. You expect a bit of mud fever living out buy I dont know why everyone is saying she was prone to it? Shes actually never had it before! 

My point being as the YO was responsible for updating us on both mares condition, when you're being told they're both doing well then why would I ask for them to brought in if they were both fine? 

As for getting the vet 48hrs after that is a complete lie as my OH got a phone call at 9pm on the friday night. He went down to find the mare in that state and the YO was p****d!! She was very reluctant to ler my OH take her rug off as she would get cold....then said she couldnt be blamed for the state she was in kept saying she wasnt happy about it. 

As for moving the mare in such a state, she went 5mins down the road to a friends place who we trusted, where my OH was staying and somewhere where we knew she would get looked after. After the state she was found would I really let her stay there any longer? 

She was made comfortable in a nice stable with hay and water and the vet attended first thinh sat morning. Not 48hrs later as stated by the YO. 

All rights and wrongs aside my horse was suffering and went un noticed by an experienced YO. Regardless of whether I was 5 or 500 miles away, I was paying for a duty of care to my horse and this wasnt given. And regardless, a horse should never have allowed to get in this mess.

I have certainly learned an extremely hard lesson and now I have to live with the fact I will never see my mare again.


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## MerrySherryRider (24 February 2013)

diamonddogs said:



			I understood that all this had been done, and the horse was left lacking.
		
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Where does the OP say that these things were done ?


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## Equilibrium Ireland (24 February 2013)

YO that came to protest her innocence. Your fault entirely. I keep horses on training board. I have my own. If I fed them all the same I'd be in trouble. And it's also very much the little things. If one of the horses loses a rug or it breaks, I do not ring the owner. I sort it myself because you know, that's part of my freaking job. If they need extra feeding I don't call the owner, I freaking do it. I don't do grass livery but if something may become an issue with regards to more money I will say as much. But I don't hold the horse to ransom. While that horse is with me I have a duty of care and treat as my own. 

Do not come here with BS excuses. I used to have a much bigger operation but you know what the recession hit. A few clients decided they weren't going to pay anymore and I was left holding the bag. They still went on holidays, house was never in danger of foreclosure and driving up in the latest vehicles to tell me to do want I need to do with the horses but they weren't paying anymore. Handed me passports. I know I didn't let any starve or just shove them out in the field for the winter. Nope I got screwed well and truly screwed. But there was no way in heck I was going to let any horses suffer until they were sold to good places. Because that's what you do when you have horses and take them in from other people. I learned a valuable life lesson but nothing suffered because of it. 

So please do not come here with "your side"

Terri


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## diamonddogs (24 February 2013)

horserider said:



			Where does the OP say that these things were done ?
		
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Page 1 #13
Page 1 #17
Page 1 #26
Page 3 #62

OP says she was getting texts to say the mare was fine on Page 1 #11 and Page 4 #92, and on the post cross-posted with yours, immediately above yours.


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## Goldenstar (24 February 2013)

accusedyardowner said:





*******************Statement of FACT ************************

As the afore mentioned YO I feel a few points need to be cleared up! SilverShoes was in the field with 8 other horses "20acres" to include in-foal mares and veterans alike. All were treated the same and have cme through winter absolutely fine. Livery clients were charged grass-livery and were informed via text message that big round bales of haylage was added to the field. No reply to the message was given. 
Both mares of the livery client came with shoes and it was pomised that a farrier would be organised by the clients to remove the shoes and trim the feet, However, this DID NOT happen! When one of the mares lost a rug in the bad weather the livery client was informed again via text message. The reply to this was "a local friend was organised to replace the rug" This DID NOT happen! 
SilverShoes was regularly seen by myself and other livery clients, both sound and eating from the bale of haylage! I was not once asked by the HO to bring either mare in from tthe field to check under rugs or wash their legs. This would have been an easy task for myself or two further livery clients that are well known to the HO. 
By her own admision the HO failed to check on the horses herself - more than twice within the first 3 months of the livery time. When paying just before xmas for all charges up to the end of December - NO attempt to check either mare was made and  NO arrangements for anybody to carry on, following the clint moving 500 miles away. 
I have long standing liveries (6 years+), an immensely experienced equine vet and blacksmith among other proffesional people who CAN and WILL vouch for the quality of service povided by this yard. 
It was my husband and two further livery clients who discovered the mare to be lame. I brought the mare in to a stable over night, the HO were contacted and the services of a vet were offered. The condition of the mare was also reported. The reply from the HO was to get a friend to transport the horse in distress delaying veterinary attention for a further 48 hours. 
The RSPCA called here yesterdy and found nothing what-so-ever wrong with the premisesn or any animal present at the property (30+ horses) and we were glad they had visited. There is no report coming from the RSPCA with regards to my part in this as no further action is required. 
Only after this whole sad situation has it come to my attention that "Silvershoes" has always been a mare who lives in with feed and rugs and regular attention. She was also always prone to mud-fever. We are now wandering if she had any existing illness or condition which may affect the other horses in the field. We are currently struggling to eceive any information with regards to blood test or postmortem results! 

This concludes my statement of facts. Feel free to comment as you have been doing, but I WILL NOT be entering any further discussion myself.
		
Click to expand...

Shame you entered the disscussion at all.
I am shocked that a horse on a 'professional ' yard who was rugged was not having the rug removed daily when the owner was not visiting daily you can't check a horse with a rug on it.
Who was picking the feet out daily if the owner was away.
Who was checking limbs daily 
The Answer it seems was no one poor poor mare.


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## diamonddogs (24 February 2013)

Silvershoes, hope you're OK.

Try to remember her how she was, but in my own experience it was several weeks before I could look at photos of my Kelly and several more before I could think of her and smile.

One day at a time...


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## ebonyallen (24 February 2013)

I am so very sorry to read this, your poor little mare. Words fail me as to the person or people that were supposed to be looking after her. My heart goes out to you all.


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## patchwork puzzle (24 February 2013)

The bottom line here is becoming lost in the blame throwing and accusations!

A horse has died that had become so ill whilst on somebodies property and nobody on that property saw fit to attend to this horse and stop its suffering....Its a disgrace!! How can any person stand by and see any animal suffer without doing something (anything) in their power to stop its suffering!
 The only facts (as far as I can remember) that we have which directly contribute to this horses death are simple. 

She was not checked to see if she were ok (However YO was reporting that the horse was fine!)
I dont remember reading about any underlying medical issue, so again the facts we have before us are that she was not eating and/or rugged adequately!
The HO was 500 miles away for a period of time so couldnt pop over to see if the horse was ok.
The horse was on the YO property.

Why would the YO not bother checking more thoroughly on a horse left in her care when she claims that the HO did not come and see the horse even when she could (whether HO did or not is not really relevant as the horse was on YO property and she has claimed herself that the horse wasnt being seen too, so if you knew this (or believed this to be the case, why wouldnt you check on its welfare!)

Its simple in my eyes as I would not let any animal that I know of suffer, be it my own or another, either on the same yard or even a strange horse. If you cannot afford to feed it and it has been left and not been paid for then you report it, and even though some of the rescue places have a bad press for not taking action, at least you can hold your head up and say you did what you can do to try and help it!


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## Hedgewitch13 (24 February 2013)

I'm so sorry for your loss Silvershoes. It sounds like your ex YO was just too lazy to look after your mare on a daily basis. How a horse can end up in the state yours did is beyond me when you were paying for your ex YO to look after her! Dpwnright disgusting in my mind. 

Please don't blame yourself - you had trusted someone to look after her and they failed you big time. I feel so sad for you  xx


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## diamonddogs (24 February 2013)

The capacity for neglect must be contagious on that yard as YO claims to have a vet (an experienced one at that ) AND a farrier among her clients, yet the vet did nothing and neither did the farrier.

It just gets worse.


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## Spring Feather (24 February 2013)

diamonddogs said:



			The capacity for neglect must be contagious on that yard as YO claims to have a vet (an experienced one at that ) AND a farrier among her clients, yet the vet did nothing and neither did the farrier.
		
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The YO did not say the vet and farrier were clients.


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## diamonddogs (24 February 2013)

No; you're right - now who's not reading properly!


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## ester (24 February 2013)

what a sorry mess, poor mare .


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## Meandtheboys (24 February 2013)

I can not believe that someone could move and leave horses on 'Grass Livery', I am in the process of relocating 300 miles away and if I am in the same position and unable to take my horses at the same time they would be put on 'Full Livery' so that all needs are met - some may see this as a harsh statement but I do feel sorry for the YO and the owner should have made more effort to check horses at least every other weekend..............**RIP little horse**


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## ester (24 February 2013)

full grass livery does exist though and I assume this is the service the OP thought she was getting... sadly not.


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## Mearas (24 February 2013)

patchwork puzzle said:



			The bottom line here is becoming lost in the blame throwing and accusations!

A horse has died that had become so ill whilst on somebodies property and nobody on that property saw fit to attend to this horse and stop its suffering....Its a disgrace!! How can any person stand by and see any animal suffer without doing something (anything) in their power to stop its suffering!
		
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^^^^^This is the shocking truth patchwork puzzle.


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## Tormenta (24 February 2013)

Oh for Goodness sake. Grass livery does not mean that you chuck some haylage and water in a field and ignore them. They should still be properly checked REGULARLY which is the crux of the matter here. If the mare had been checked properly, her deterioration would have been caught long before she was so bad she died. She might still be here. My own horses live out 24/7 and I take rugs off daily, check their temps (not too hot or too cold, check for lumps, bumps and scratches, check their limbs, eyes etc etc etc. I am so used to it now it probably takes 5 minutes per horse to undo a rug and roll back. Not a lot of time out of your day for one animal is it? And I don't get paid for it either!! A small amount of time, even if it had been just once each day may have saved her life, how utterly tragic!


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## farmerone (24 February 2013)

ester said:



			full grass livery does exist though and I assume this is the service the OP thought she was getting... sadly not.
		
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Hi fellow horse owners, I've read all comments relating to silvershoes and I'm sorry of the outcome, but feel the need to comment. I have a horse who is on grass livery.... YES grass livery. Although it is February and grass is very poor at this time of year, there is ample haylage available in the fields where horses are kept to replace the grass (as was in Silvershoes's field by what I have read). As I'm sure your aware, grass does not grow in the winter months. I keep my horse 200 miles from my home as there is no grass liveries where I live. I thoroughly trust that while I am not present on the yard that MY horse is fed and kept in a field where I left my horse I understand that MY horse is *MY responsibility* at all times. It is MY own choice to leave MY horse at grass livery. I travel the distance to check on MY horse and PAY MY livery bill each week. I arrange for the farrier to shoe MY horse at a convenient time TO ME. MY horse did not land on my doorstep. I WANTED him. Although everyone's circumstances change throughout the year these are our horses and our responsibility. It is unfair to put the blame on the YO when in reality they are keeping your horses ( clearly in your mind rent free). If the horses are rugged up; why should it be down to the YO to look under the rugs to see whats going on! It's OUR responsibility as horse owners to do this. If you live far from the yard ask a friend to check in on the YO. That should be enough until you can go and see for yourself. I may also add that if you don't have time to see your horses it's kinder to give them up surely. It is now 10:15, I've driven 400 mile round trip, stayed in a local hotel over the weekend  as i do each week to pay livery and spend time with my horse. I may be an exception and if i could have him at home i would but at this time its not an option and this situation suits me. I sympathize with all concerned, but my question is why did you not take your horse with you when you moved so far away? and for the commenters how do you have the time to sit on a computer and comment through the day when you have horses? this confuses me ???  
Harsh lesson learnt I think. Come on.....would you go for a haircut and ask to pay next week?! Of course not. It seems to me that the YO had informed the HO and therefore it is the HO's responsibility to do something about it! Or am I wrong?


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## maccachic (24 February 2013)

What happens if your horse injures itself / gets sick between your visits, do you not rely on the YO to keep an eye on your horse or do you hope for the best?


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## Tormenta (24 February 2013)

Hmm, looks like what is included in Grass Livery and what it entails can differ from yard to yard and area to area. At a yard I used to be at, grass livery included daily checks. Others are saying it doesn't. Bit of a grey area.


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## diamonddogs (24 February 2013)

farmerone said:



			Hi fellow horse owners, I've read all comments relating to silvershoes and I'm sorry of the outcome, but feel the need to comment. I have a horse who is on grass livery.... YES grass livery. Although it is February and grass is very poor at this time of year, there is ample haylage available in the fields where horses are kept to replace the grass (as was in Silvershoes's field by what I have read). As I'm sure your aware, grass does not grow in the winter months. I keep my horse 200 miles from my home as there is no grass liveries where I live. I thoroughly trust that while I am not present on the yard that MY horse is fed and kept in a field where I left my horse I understand that MY horse is *MY responsibility* at all times. It is MY own choice to leave MY horse at grass livery. I travel the distance to check on MY horse and PAY MY livery bill each week. I arrange for the farrier to shoe MY horse at a convenient time TO ME. MY horse did not land on my doorstep. I WANTED him. Although everyone's circumstances change throughout the year these are our horses and our responsibility. It is unfair to put the blame on the YO when in reality they are keeping your horses ( clearly in your mind rent free). If the horses are rugged up; why should it be down to the YO to look under the rugs to see whats going on! It's OUR responsibility as horse owners to do this. If you live far from the yard ask a friend to check in on the YO. That should be enough until you can go and see for yourself. I may also add that if you don't have time to see your horses it's kinder to give them up surely. It is now 10:15, I've driven 400 mile round trip, stayed in a local hotel over the weekend  as i do each week to pay livery and spend time with my horse. I may be an exception and if i could have him at home i would but at this time its not an option and this situation suits me. I sympathize with all concerned, but my question is why did you not take your horse with you when you moved so far away? and for the commenters how do you have the time to sit on a computer and comment through the day when you have horses? this confuses me ???  
Harsh lesson learnt I think. Come on.....would you go for a haircut and ask to pay next week?! Of course not. It seems to me that the YO had informed the HO and therefore it is the HO's responsibility to do something about it! Or am I wrong?
		
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You're wrong - you haven't read all the thread.


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## Littlelegs (24 February 2013)

I think for me it has happened one of two ways. Either horse was left on (full) grass livery, which was to provide all care etc, in which case all blame lies with yo. Or, horse was on diy grass livery, with a brief 'check its legs haven't fallen off' care arrangement, in which case yo is at fault for neglecting an essentially abandoned horse, & op at fault for abandoning it. Of course, there are possibilities between those, however either way yo is at fault, & the exact circumstances will only reveal how much op is to blame also. And I doubt any of us will ever know the exact full facts of it all.


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## farmerone (24 February 2013)

_As for moving the mare in such a state, she went 5mins down the road to a friends place who we trusted, where my OH was staying and somewhere where we knew she would get looked after. After the state she was found would I really let her stay there any longer?_


Can I just ask why you didn't check on your horses when you went to pay your bill?! I certainly like seeing mine if they mean so much to you?!


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## Honey08 (24 February 2013)

Littlelegs said:



			I think for me it has happened one of two ways. Either horse was left on (full) grass livery, which was to provide all care etc, in which case all blame lies with yo. Or, horse was on diy grass livery, with a brief 'check its legs haven't fallen off' care arrangement, in which case yo is at fault for neglecting an essentially abandoned horse, & op at fault for abandoning it. Of course, there are possibilities between those, however either way yo is at fault, & the exact circumstances will only reveal how much op is to blame also. And I doubt any of us will ever know the exact full facts of it all.
		
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I think so too, or perhaps that one person thought one thing, the other the other!

I'm finding it a bit more suspicious though that all these random new people keep popping up in support of the yard owner every now and again though!


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## ester (24 February 2013)

farmerone said:



			I thoroughly trust that while I am not present on the yard that MY horse is fed and kept in a field where I left my horse I understand that MY horse is *MY responsibility* at all times. It is MY own choice to leave MY horse at grass livery. 

 It is unfair to put the blame on the YO when in reality they are keeping your horses ( clearly in your mind rent free) who said anything about rent free??. 

If the horses are rugged up; why should it be down to the YO to look under the rugs to see whats going on! Of course it is be if 'full grass livery' is the service being provided/paid for, although that hasn't been clarified it should have been obvious to the YO that was what was required and the owner charged accordingly 

It's OUR responsibility as horse owners to do this or to ensure someone else is employed by us to do it surely?- what about all of the horses on retirement livery? [/COLOR]

and for the commenters how do you have the time to sit on a computer and comment through the day when you have horses? this confuses me ???  
Ride/turnout/muckout in morning- put to bed at night fall why is that confusing




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what an odd first post


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## Gingerwitch (24 February 2013)

The poor horse is dead.
The owner did not arrange proper care.
The horse was on a yard that would not provide appropriate care
The yard owner did not give proper care.
The horse was on a yard that would not provide appropriate care
The poor horse is dead

the blame game, pass the monkey can be played till the end of time, the horse is dead, it won't help her will it?


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## Littlelegs (24 February 2013)

Yes, me too honey. And even if op dumped horse on diy, owed rent, neglected it, & was proven to be crap horse owner of the year, the yo is still at fault for not getting charities in etc.


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## diamonddogs (24 February 2013)

Honey08 said:



			...I'm finding it a bit more suspicious though that all these random new people keep popping up in support of the yard owner every now and again though!
		
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Same here. And the questions they ask just prove they haven't read the thread. And they (s/he?) certainly took his/her/their time to try and make a case for the defence.


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## WelshD (24 February 2013)

A sad story

I guess it could be argued that the YO shouldn't provide full grass livery if asked to keep an eye in the horse but the fact remains that one person stood by and watched the poor horse starve to the point of no return and that was the YO

They could have texted/phoned/written to the OP at any point and said 'your horse is deteriorating daily, get your arse over here and remove it or pay me the full amount and I will deal with the situation'

But no. They chose not to walk over to the horse and stick a hand under the rug because they hadn't been paid to.


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## silvershoes (25 February 2013)

farmerone said:



_As for moving the mare in such a state, she went 5mins down the road to a friends place who we trusted, where my OH was staying and somewhere where we knew she would get looked after. After the state she was found would I really let her stay there any longer?_


Can I just ask why you didn't check on your horses when you went to pay your bill?! I certainly like seeing mine if they mean so much to you?!
		
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Hmmm, funny how you know these things "farmerone" when apparently you keep your horses 200 miles away on grass livery...TROLL alert springs to mind 

To be honest, you can back the YO up all you like, it doesnt deny the fact they ignored my horse when she was suffering.

Setting up your own livery yard and business is quite a time consuming, financially draining and stressful time, all of which the YO should be able to relate to. So as a friend, the least they could do would be to check my horse. 

Put the shoe on the other foot. What if I was looking after their beloved stallion whilst they were on holiday/moving etc. And he ended up having to be pts in my care. I for one would never ever let a horse in my care get in to that mess and two I certainly wouldn't be spouting my innocence on here when I haven't even had a text or a phone call to say sorry! 

I would be ashamed and embarassed that it had happened on my yard and I'd have to live with a cloud of guilt over my head for a very long time.


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## Delicious_D (25 February 2013)

TBH, if you are thinking of taking any sort of legal action, posting this thread on the forum wont help.


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## rockysmum (25 February 2013)

Hmmm, strange farmerone has the same tendency not to use paragraphs and to use the abbrevation HO 

Also farmerone, do you travel the 200 miles twice a day, if not who looks after your horse inbetween your visits, obviously you dont think its the YO.  Sounds like anything could happen to it, and in those circumstances it would be your fault.


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## Archangel (25 February 2013)

patchwork puzzle said:



			A horse has died that had become so ill whilst on somebodies property and nobody on that property saw fit to attend to this horse and stop its suffering....Its a disgrace!! How can any person stand by and see any animal suffer without doing something (anything) in their power to stop its suffering!
		
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Absolutely.  That poor horse.


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## Moomin1 (25 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			Well, it was only a matter of time before the island knew about this thread. So, just to clear a few things up for the newbies...

As for all the text messages I could easily just screen shot them and post them on here to show that every message was replied to, but I'll save the YO more embarassment. 

As for you saying I never asked for you to bring the horse in and wash her legs etc. No I didnt ask for this. You expect a bit of mud fever living out buy I dont know why everyone is saying she was prone to it? Shes actually never had it before! 

My point being as the YO was responsible for updating us on both mares condition, when you're being told they're both doing well then why would I ask for them to brought in if they were both fine? 

As for getting the vet 48hrs after that is a complete lie as my OH got a phone call at 9pm on the friday night. He went down to find the mare in that state and the YO was p****d!! She was very reluctant to ler my OH take her rug off as she would get cold....then said she couldnt be blamed for the state she was in kept saying she wasnt happy about it. 

As for moving the mare in such a state, she went 5mins down the road to a friends place who we trusted, where my OH was staying and somewhere where we knew she would get looked after. After the state she was found would I really let her stay there any longer? 

She was made comfortable in a nice stable with hay and water and the vet attended first thinh sat morning. Not 48hrs later as stated by the YO. 

All rights and wrongs aside my horse was suffering and went un noticed by an experienced YO. Regardless of whether I was 5 or 500 miles away, I was paying for a duty of care to my horse and this wasnt given. And regardless, a horse should never have allowed to get in this mess.

I have certainly learned an extremely hard lesson and now I have to live with the fact I will never see my mare again.
		
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If I found my mare in that state I would have been getting the emergency out of hours out, not moving down the road and waiting until the next morning.

Hopefully everyone concerned in this sorry incident will have learnt a very hard lesson.  It appears that there is blame to varying extents on all sides.


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## silvershoes (25 February 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			If I found my mare in that state I would have been getting the emergency out of hours out, not moving down the road and waiting until the next morning.

Hopefully everyone concerned in this sorry incident will have learnt a very hard lesson.  It appears that there is blame to varying extents on all sides.
		
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Yes, I wasn't there and asked for the vet to come imediately, but who said for them not to as she was eating and drinking fine.....the YO. 

If I had been there things certainly would have been different. But when you receive a phone call from your OH crying and you're hundreds of miles away there is only so much you can do on the other end of the phone  

But its all in the past now, what was done was done and unfortunately can't be undone. I'm sure if we could go back in time, myself and the YO would have done things a lot differently.


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## Mongoose11 (25 February 2013)

The YO and other liveries had a moral duty of care to that horse.

That said, owner isn't absolved here. I wouldn't be leaving my mare without a written agreement, I would have found the time to visit her within a period of two months whether I was 500 miles away or not. I would have requested a weekly update, perhaps a photo (not hard these days) and if these things weren't forthcoming I would have wondered why.

I believe the responsibility lies equally IF there was a clear agreement of care expected.


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## Mongoose11 (25 February 2013)

Having now read more of the thread it is obvious that there wasn't a clear care plan that had been agreed. 

Responsibility falls to owner. Shame falls to YO.


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## silvershoes (25 February 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			Having now read more of the thread it is obvious that there wasn't a clear care plan that had been agreed. 

Responsibility falls to owner. Shame falls to YO.
		
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Agreement was verbal. Learnt a hard lesson and will never do it again


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## Mongoose11 (25 February 2013)

silvershoes said:



			Agreement was verbal. Learnt a hard lesson and will never do it again 

Click to expand...

I am sorry you had to learn it, the guilt will lessen and so will the pain of losing her. 

I learnt my own very hard lesson in a similar way, I had a dog who suffered with some conditions that were well managed but he would go up and down and each time they said - he is getting worse but he is happy and keep doing what you're doing, nothing we can do at this stage blah blah blah. When he showed his usual signs of going through a 'poorly stage' with exactly the same symptoms presented before, I didnt take him. He died and I regret it every day 

Sorry for your loss x


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## Delicious_D (25 February 2013)

Verbal contracts can still stand if there is a clear indication of responsibility, i.e. you had to pay for the service and in doing so you can prove she had to provide it. Its tricky to prove but doable.


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## cptrayes (25 February 2013)

Elsiecat said:



			"So believe me if I had a sooner opportunity to go we would of. But thanks for sending my guilt trip on an even bigger trip."

So you wanted me to back you up and completely blame the YO for something that is equally your fault!? We're we all supposed to ignore the fact that as an owner you could have done more?
You're on a public forum, don't chuck your toys out of the pram when people disagree with you. 
For what it's worth I did have a degree of sympathy for you. I don't now. The only one I have sympathy for is the horse and I hope she gets better.
		
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What a nasty post. You didn't even spot the horse was dead before you launched this vitriol at the owner.



Elsiecat said:



			when I moved I did a 160 mile trip daily to sort my horse out, muck out, ride, groom and do haynets and feed buckets. This was for a full week. 
So don't say in 8 weeks she couldn't have made 1 trip!

I'm not 'digging the knife in deeper' I'm merely playing devils advocate on a thread where she is openly trying to lay all the blame on the YO. 
It's a sad lesson learnt but we all need to walk away from things with our eyes opened. I'm sorry this has happened to the OP but I'm more sorry that this has happened to the horse!
		
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And then rub it in, why don't you?



RiderLizzie said:



			Lack of due care and attention from both sides. Livery yard owner should have been honest about the horse and arrange with the owner suitable care. Owner should have found means to check on horse, or had another friend just check up on the horses.
		
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Do people read? The yard owner was a trusted friend! How many friends do you want to check the horse?




silvershoes said:



			Agreement was verbal. Learnt a hard lesson and will never do it again 

Click to expand...



Silvershoes I am only posting because I am known for being extremely judgemental on this forum, and for good reason.

I believe that the criticism of you, particularly the ones I have quoted, is completely unjustified and out of order.

I've had a horse 400 miles away who got starved with someone that I also trusted, and it simply isn't always possible in normal people's lives just to take a 1,000 mile drive to keep a check on a horse so far away. I also rang and was told he was fine. You left her with someone who you thought was a reliable friend, paying fees for her care. What were you supposed to do - get another friend to check on that friend? And who was going to check on that friend in case s/he was also unable to spot the problem?  I would have done exactly what you did, leave my horse on paid livery with a trusted yard owner while I sorted out my own, probably extremely personally disruptive, move.

Please try to let the feeling of guilt fade - this was not your fault.


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## Delicious_D (25 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Silvershoes I am only posting because I am known for being extremely judgemental on this forum, and for good reason.
		
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Debateable.

The best thing the OP can do is to stop posting details on here for all to see and seek legal advise.


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## Spring Feather (25 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			What a nasty post. You didn't even spot the horse was dead before you launched this vitriol at the owner.



And then rub it in, why don't you?



*Do people read?*

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No I don't think some people do.  The horse was not dead when Elsiecat made those comments...


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## Elsiecat (25 February 2013)

Actually CPtrayes, me and OP have spoken on PM. I have offered her some comforting words. No matter the wrongs and rights she did nothing wrong to the extent that she deserved this. She couldn't predict this, no one could.

However thanks for bringing up things that was said before the mare died, very constructive!


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## Delicious_D (25 February 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			No I don't think some people do.  The horse was not dead when Elsiecat made those comments...
		
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Indeed, the irony is, CPT is accusing people of being rude, when her own tone is just that....


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## patchwork puzzle (25 February 2013)

Why oh Why is everybody still intent on throwing blame back and forth.
 OP, no amount of your trying to justify yourself to some people will make a blind bit of difference. The majority made their views felt before your mare was PTS and they are too set in their views to do anything but continue to stick to their initial opinion. The respectful thing for anyone that still blamed (be it in part or whole) the OP would have been to bow out after she lost her horse. It is spiteful and callous to continue to drag the accusations on.
 Op, I agree with Delicious D, you should now step back and take the situation through the appropriate channels to get justice for your mare and hopefully stop this happening again. Unfortunately you are not helping yourself (sadly you are stoking the fire of those who blame you), and your mare deserves more than to be the subject of such a thread as this has become.

For the sake of the mare that lost her life, can everybody just think about exactly what you are writing and exactly what you think it will acheive before posting


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## Elsiecat (25 February 2013)

patchwork puzzle said:



			Why oh Why is everybody still intent on throwing blame back and forth.
 OP, no amount of your trying to justify yourself to some people will make a blind bit of difference. The majority made their views felt before your mare was PTS and they are too set in their views to do anything but continue to stick to their initial opinion. The respectful thing for anyone that still blamed (be it in part or whole) the OP would have been to bow out after she lost her horse. It is spiteful and callous to continue to drag the accusations on.
 Op, I agree with Delicious D, you should now step back and take the situation through the appropriate channels to get justice for your mare and hopefully stop this happening again. Unfortunately you are not helping yourself (sadly you are stoking the fire of those who blame you), and your mare deserves more than to be the subject of such a thread as this has become.

For the sake of the mare that lost her life, can everybody just think about exactly what you are writing and exactly what you think it will acheive before posting
		
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The voice of reason.
After the mare died, the ins out and outs didn't matter. OP clearly never would wish any harm on her own horse.
People can bat back and forth forever. It won't bring the mare back and certainly won't help anybody. It's clear OP is devastated and I think we should all bow out of this thread.


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## Delicious_D (25 February 2013)

patchwork puzzle said:



			Why oh Why is everybody still intent on throwing blame back and forth.
 OP, no amount of your trying to justify yourself to some people will make a blind bit of difference. The majority made their views felt before your mare was PTS and they are too set in their views to do anything but continue to stick to their initial opinion. The respectful thing for anyone that still blamed (be it in part or whole) the OP would have been to bow out after she lost her horse. It is spiteful and callous to continue to drag the accusations on.
 Op, I agree with Delicious D, you should now step back and take the situation through the appropriate channels to get justice for your mare and hopefully stop this happening again. Unfortunately you are not helping yourself (sadly you are stoking the fire of those who blame you), and your mare deserves more than to be the subject of such a thread as this has become.

For the sake of the mare that lost her life, can everybody just think about exactly what you are writing and exactly what you think it will acheive before posting
		
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Elsiecat said:



			The voice of reason.
After the mare died, the ins out and outs didn't matter. OP clearly never would wish any harm on her own horse.
People can bat back and forth forever. It won't bring the mare back and certainly won't help anybody. It's clear OP is devastated and I think we should all bow out of this thread.
		
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Agreed. Any way we can get this thread locked?


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## diamonddogs (25 February 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			Agreed. Any way we can get this thread locked?
		
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I'll second that. I asked the same thing at #283.

(Though I'm as guilty as anyone for dragging it out. )


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## cptrayes (25 February 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			No I don't think some people do.  The horse was not dead when Elsiecat made those comments...
		
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Elsiecat said:



			Actually CPtrayes, me and OP have spoken on PM. I have offered her some comforting words. No matter the wrongs and rights she did nothing wrong to the extent that she deserved this. She couldn't predict this, no one could.

However thanks for bringing up things that was said before the mare died, very constructive!
		
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Got me there, fair and square. Doesn't make your blaming of the OP in the first place fair in any way, in my oh so humble opinion. Though I am glad that you offered her support by PM, belatedly.



Delicious_D said:



			Indeed, the irony is, CPT is accusing people of being rude, when her own tone is just that....
		
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Oh,  fine to blame an owner who tried her best for the death of her own horse at someone else's hands, is it? Compares with me saying that I think that's unfair,  to blaming someone who hasn't just lost a horse to starvation for it happening, does it? Your opinion, I don't share it.


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## Delicious_D (25 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Oh,  fine to blame an owner who tried her best for the death of her own horse at someone else's hands, is it? Compares with me saying that I think that's unfair,  to blaming someone who hasn't just lost a horse to starvation for it happening, does it? Your opinion, I don't share it.
		
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Wow...where the hell did i say that cpt? Quite a leap you have made there. Maybe menopause isnt suiting you? Evenign primrose, thats the key.  

Please, for the sake of the OP, let this thread die. No one ever wishes any suffering to come to any animal. But having successful sued in the past, this thread will cause more damage then good.


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## Elsiecat (25 February 2013)

I never blamed her. I always said the yard owner can't be excused and that OP should go to the RSPCA. The only thing I did say was that not seeing her horse in 8 weeks was wrong. OP didn't starve her horse, she isn't at blame. However she didn't monitor the mare (which I did think ill of with duty of care and all), which shows how much she obviously trusted the YO. 

No one deserves to lose their horse, let alone someone who put their trust in the wrong person!!!! 

Lets put this one to bed. This is my last post on the matter.


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## cptrayes (25 February 2013)

Elsiecat said:



			I never blamed her ......... the only thing I did say was that not seeing her horse in 8 weeks was wrong. OP didn't starve her horse, she isn't at blame. However she didn't monitor the mare (which I did think ill of with duty of care and all), which shows how much she obviously trusted the YO. 

No one deserves to lose their horse, let alone someone who put their trust in the wrong person!!!! 

Lets put this one to bed. This is my last post on the matter.
		
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Yes, let's put it to bed with the opinion that the owner did nothing wrong in leaving her horse on a paying basis with a person that she trusted absolutely to do the right thing, when for personal reasons she had moved 500 miles away, probably with considerable disruption to her own life. 

Plenty of people who work abroad for spells, or for a multitude of other possible personal reasons  have to do exactly the same thing.


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