# Stallion for this Event mare



## TheMule (26 November 2010)

The time is approaching when I want to breed myself a foal from my ugly-bug 

She is 15.2, by Fleetwater Opposition, out of a TB x Newforest mare who competed to a decent level in dressage. She has her weaknesses, as you can see in the confo pic. She is competitive at BE novice level and has comfortably jumped around some big intermediate tracks but rider is not ballsy enough to be competitive! She is scopey and a very careful jumper, she moves nicely with a really good hindleg but isnt extravagant. She is my ideal horse in her temperament (she is opinionated and knows who/what she likes but she likes me and will pull out all the stops when it matters) but she isnt naturally overly bold and this is what will stop her going to the top in eventing. Her full sister (2 years younger) is also at intermediate level and very similar to her.

What I want- stallion no bigger than 16.1, bold outlook, short coupled and uphill, must have a scopey and rounded jump, I want to produce a decent 2* horse. Beyond that I'm open to any suggestions. I dont have a big budget, especially as if I do it in 2011 it'll be through embryo transfer. Ideally under 1k stud fee

Confo-






As far as I see it she is- long and flat acorss the back and wither, downhill, neck set on low, big headed  and straight through the hindleg

But when she jumps like this, I forgive her!


----------



## dingle12 (26 November 2010)

Chilling morning dont know fee though and there is one up here and for the life of me i cannot remember his name its domething like Forith he is only young but he is really nice.


----------



## catts (26 November 2010)

I think you should have a look at Wish Upon a Star at Grafham Stud http://www.grafhamstud.co.uk/wishuponastar.php 

He'll add a bit of looks and a bit of movement and he seems to be stamping his offspring nicely.  He's also eventing at Intermediate level with Lucy Wiegersma.


----------



## Bearskin (26 November 2010)

Wish Upon A Star may suit.  Right size etc and competing well.


----------



## catts (26 November 2010)

Wow Bearskin we must have been writing at exactly the same time!


----------



## silver zaanif (26 November 2010)

you may not like my reply , but i think you should grade this mare before you cosider breeding from her, it is so important to get an idipendant , proffesional opinion before you breed from any horse , and it will also help you to decide on a stallion for her as the score sheet may pick out things posative and negative and if you ask the judges they are bound to recomend stallions that may compliment her.


----------



## Bearskin (26 November 2010)

catts said:



			Wow Bearskin we must have been writing at exactly the same time!
		
Click to expand...

Great minds think alike!


----------



## ofcourseyoucan (26 November 2010)

was going to suggest chilli morning! you have plenty of time yet for next year. there is a stallion parade at hartbury in january. you should go and see some in the flesh! yes she looks/is talnted and scopey but confo isnt the best. (sorry) you need to be honest and pick all her bad faults in everything and try to find a stallion who might add to the worst of her faults. stallion showings will always have people to talk to and pick brains with. take pics of her with you stood up square untacked. some flat some sj and some xc. but remember they will all try to sell their own stallion. are you breeding to keep? or to sell on? to breed a quality competitive horse be prepared to spend £££££'s. the stud fee is only a percentage of this! it will cost in excess of £3k to get the foal on the floor! good luck.


----------



## dingle12 (26 November 2010)

This is the other one

http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/Events/Results.aspx?HorseId=82022

http://www.allerthorpefarmstud.co.uk/horses/forinth/forinth.html


----------



## Kao (26 November 2010)

silver zaanif said:



			you may not like my reply , but i think you should grade this mare before you cosider breeding from her, it is so important to get an idipendant , proffesional opinion before you breed from any horse , and it will also help you to decide on a stallion for her as the score sheet may pick out things posative and negative and if you ask the judges they are bound to recomend stallions that may compliment her.
		
Click to expand...

This.


----------



## eventrider23 (26 November 2010)

My first thoughts on seeing her was Wish Upon a Star as well!!!!!  Either him or Brief Encounter....especially as neither is a huge stallion, super eventers and quite compact as especially beyond anything you would want to make sure that the stallion is quite short coupled.


----------



## TheMule (26 November 2010)

silver zaanif said:



			you may not like my reply , but i think you should grade this mare before you cosider breeding from her, it is so important to get an idipendant , proffesional opinion before you breed from any horse , and it will also help you to decide on a stallion for her as the score sheet may pick out things posative and negative and if you ask the judges they are bound to recomend stallions that may compliment her.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks- I have looked into mare gradings but her dam's breeding is unrecorded and there seems little benefit to me as a 1 time breeder to produce for myself


----------



## TheMule (26 November 2010)

eventrider23 said:



			My first thoughts on seeing her was Wish Upon a Star as well!!!!!  Either him or Brief Encounter....especially as neither is a huge stallion, super eventers and quite compact as especially beyond anything you would want to make sure that the stallion is quite short coupled.
		
Click to expand...

I really like both and went to see them at the stud sale this year. What worries me is a)Brief Encounter seems to lack a little sparkle? b) Wrt to WAUS I'm slightly wary of breeding her to a full trakehner and he was pulled up at Le Lion looking exhausted. He's also a tiny bit dicthy and, whilst I'm sure these things dont run in families, ditches would be my mare's weakest link too!


----------



## Alexart (26 November 2010)

To be brutally honest she hasn't got very good conformation, personally I'd be looking to buy a youngster that is exactly what you want rather than spend heaps of money on a foal from this mare and it not turn out as you wanted. The market is so bad at the moment you can pick up a bargain that is exactly what you are after for less than you would pay to breed a foal from this mare - I'm sure she is a lovely pet and you've had great fun with her - but from a breeding point of view she is less than ideal.


----------



## eventrider23 (26 November 2010)

I always myself thought Brief Encounter lacked sparkle and never really thought twice of him, however, of all the Jumbo sons, I have NEVER seen a foal/progeny by him that I haven't liked so he obviously produces the goods.


----------



## silver zaanif (26 November 2010)

Alexart said:



			To be brutally honest she hasn't got very good conformation, personally I'd be looking to buy a youngster that is exactly what you want rather than spend heaps of money on a foal from this mare and it not turn out as you wanted. The market is so bad at the moment you can pick up a bargain that is exactly what you are after for less than you would pay to breed a foal from this mare - I'm sure she is a lovely pet and you've had great fun with her - but from a breeding point of view she is less than ideal.
		
Click to expand...

ditto

and if you dont know the dam's breding you have no way of knowing if the stallion you choose is related to her .

IMHO buy a nice young horse, her unknown pedigre and poor conformation makes breeding from her an expensive an bad idea. i think you would be mad to put this mare in foal.


----------



## ElleJS (26 November 2010)

if you can Cevin Z or another of the Billy horses ie Billy Congo. 
Or perhaps Mighty Magic


----------



## Bearskin (26 November 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexart View Post
To be brutally honest she hasn't got very good conformation, personally I'd be looking to buy a youngster that is exactly what you want rather than spend heaps of money on a foal from this mare and it not turn out as you wanted. The market is so bad at the moment you can pick up a bargain that is exactly what you are after for less than you would pay to breed a foal from this mare - I'm sure she is a lovely pet and you've had great fun with her - but from a breeding point of view she is less than ideal.

Silver Zaanif: ditto

and if you dont know the dam's breding you have no way of knowing if the stallion you choose is related to her .

IMHO buy a nice young horse, her unknown pedigre and poor conformation makes breeding from her an expensive an bad idea. i think you would be mad to put this mare in foal." Quote.


I think that the OP is very aware of the mare's weak points and is keen to improve on them.  Fleetwater Oposition does not always produce the best made horses but he does produce performers.  As for her being "a lovely pet", I think that competing at Intermediate brings her slightly above that level.....

Also, the OP says the mare's damline is not recorded.  That does not necessarily mean her breeding is unknown.


----------



## LEC (26 November 2010)

To be fair to the mare I have seen her full sister eventing and she is well put together and also performing well. I would not have an issue breeding this mare as she really performs and has been 100% sound. Opposition Buzz has poor conformation yet it does not stop him.


----------



## silver zaanif (26 November 2010)

i'll agree 'pet' is perhaps not the best way to put it

do you know the mares damline?


----------



## stolensilver (26 November 2010)

I really think we need to revise our opinions of what is good conformation. This mare has performed at a higher level than most horses and stayed sound. A recent study of German showjumpers showed a positive correlation between "bad" conformation and excellent performance. In other words traditionally good conformation is not necessarily the best conformation for an outstanding athlete. 

Personally I'd always try to breed from a mare who has been out and competed and proved herself to be trainable and sound even if she hasn't got textbook conformation. I have serious doubts about breeding from a beautifully put together mare who has lameness issues at a young age.

Give me the performer every day of the week.


----------



## illy89 (26 November 2010)

I have a Brief Encounter filly. I would really recommend him, am so pleased with my foal and have had lots of positive comments about her on here and also from my instructors and peers. She definitely isn't lacking any sparkle but has a fab temperament and has been a pleasure for me to look after as my first foal. She also has a trot to die for!!!  Good luck in your search!!


----------



## ashbank (26 November 2010)

TheMule said:



			Wrt to WAUS I'm slightly wary of breeding her to a full trakehner
		
Click to expand...

Just a point of information - Wish Upon A Star is not a full Trakehner.


----------



## Thistle (26 November 2010)

V interested in this as what suits her will prob suit my FO mare, IF I decide to breed from her in 2 years.

I have considered Mill Law, Brief Encounter and WUAS, also Chilli Morning.

I would be preferably looking for mostly TB (or Trak with a big TB influence), It must have a great shoulder and very correct front limb confo.

FO offsrping are often ugly ducklings but are true performers. However 2nd generation babies seem to inherit looks, trainability and a better temperament (less quirky).

Have a look at Future Sport horses and see what Julia has used on some of her mares that carry FO lines. Her stallion Future Illusion is well made and good looking (obviously not suitable for you as by FO) but worth looking through her gallery and seeing some of her breeding choices as she really researches bloodlines for maximum performance, at least that way you'll get some idea of FO crosses.


----------



## TheMule (27 November 2010)

Alexart said:



			I'm sure she is a lovely pet and you've had great fun with her - but from a breeding point of view she is less than ideal.
		
Click to expand...

Lol, thank you for making me laugh at least!
Pet she isn't, she is an intermediate event horse with a decent string of results under her belt. She is sound, easy to ride and exactly what I want in a horse. I'm breeding for myself


----------



## TheMule (27 November 2010)

ElleJS said:



			if you can Cevin Z or another of the Billy horses ie Billy Congo. 
Or perhaps Mighty Magic
		
Click to expand...

I adore Might Magic and would love to use such a proven bloodline so he's definitely a maybe


----------



## TheMule (27 November 2010)

Thistle said:



			V interested in this as what suits her will prob suit my FO mare, IF I decide to breed from her in 2 years.

I have considered Mill Law, Brief Encounter and WUAS, also Chilli Morning.
		
Click to expand...

I was chatting to FO's owner about it and he's sent mares to Chilli Morning this year. He said he has a cracking Mill Law but they may be a bit leggy for what I want. He said Grafenstolz or he'd use Totilas in an ideal world!!


----------



## TheMule (27 November 2010)

silver zaanif said:



			ditto

and if you dont know the dam's breding you have no way of knowing if the stallion you choose is related to her .

IMHO buy a nice young horse, her unknown pedigre and poor conformation makes breeding from her an expensive an bad idea. i think you would be mad to put this mare in foal.
		
Click to expand...

I'd be genuinely interested to know what would make you say she shouldnt have a foal beyond 'poor conformation'. Her frame isnt great but she can gallop and jump and does a pretty tidy test.  What do you think she'd pass on that would make the foal an expensive bad idea?


----------



## TheMule (27 November 2010)

A couple to show her movement-


----------



## seabsicuit2 (27 November 2010)

99.9% of people on here seem to breed from mares that have not performed in competition in any respect ( myself included) so what right have people got to criticise someone who is actually breeding from a proper performance horse that has actually never had a days lameness or physical problem for her entire career? We need far more people to breed from mares like this I'd say! 
& if people had any idea how difficult it is to keep a horse sound enough to event up to Intermediate level-it really is not easy to find such a horse that is physically up to it these days. 

Anyway, back to the point of this thread!! I think Grafenstolz or Chill Morning. 
Wish upon a star I dont think is gutsy or scopey enough.& I dont feel that Brief Encounter would give you that really raw scope and quality/gutsiness that you want.
What about that Heraldik stallion that LEC posted about some time ago- Herald that competed at the WEG? He looks very blood and scopey.

Or there is this young stallion at Castle Farm with Heraldik breeding; think there was some problem with his grading, not sure what but would be worth investigating further.
http://web.me.com/vernjr/Castle_Farm_Equestrian/Stud.html


----------



## maestro (27 November 2010)

My own Weston Justice is ideal for this type of mare as he has teh proven performance and is graded.  He is also proving to improve mares adn goes well with FO mares, as yo know!


----------



## Maesfen (27 November 2010)

Have to agree with Seabiscuit here and while in a perfect world I would always prefer a good looking horse, I would put performance and soundness above that any time.  'andsome is as 'andsome does is a very true saying for something you want to be competitive and stay sound.  Beware the peacocks who won't give you either.


----------



## only_me (27 November 2010)

If you fancy something a bit different, you could try Glenhill Gold?
Advanced eventer, tricoloured and nice temperment 
he is uphill and short coupled as well


----------



## Baydale (27 November 2010)

TheMule said:



			What I want- stallion no bigger than 16.1, bold outlook, short coupled and uphill, must have a scopey and rounded jump, I want to produce a decent 2* horse. Beyond that I'm open to any suggestions. I dont have a big budget, especially as if I do it in 2011 it'll be through embryo transfer. Ideally under 1k stud fee
		
Click to expand...

I'm a fan of Moon so am offended by you calling her an ugly bug.  

I know Graf is bigger than 16.1 but he has produced me a short-coupled, uphill filly with a very bold outlook, and from a mare with less-than-perfect conformation. If you look at the vid of him jumping with Michael Jung he looks a lot better than some of the more recent video I've seen.

Here's Gertie:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4263256&l=a9d71d7bcf&id=578103634

And here's Graf at Compiegne:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpnkT4LoKfI

Grace is in foal to Wish Upon A Star this time, so it's interesting that his name keeps coming up on this thread.


----------



## TheMule (27 November 2010)

Finally a Moon supporter arrives *phew*

I love Gertie- look at the size of that bottom!!


----------



## Baydale (27 November 2010)

TheMule said:



			Finally a Moon supporter arrives *phew*

I love Gertie- look at the size of that bottom!!
		
Click to expand...

I don't care what they look like, so long as they do the job....assuming you're wanting an eventer and not a show horse?

Her bottom is nearly as big as her personality/attitude...


----------



## MistletoeMegan (27 November 2010)

I find the views that some people have on conformation really bizarre - IMO good conformation should indicate that a horse _should_ be physically capable of doing its intended job... so if this mare has been able to do her intended job (and then some) without issue, what's the problem with her conformation?

She's always sound, always willing and is very athletic - and she tries hard for her rider. That's more than you get with a lot of horses and demonstrates that conformation isn't the be all and end all -  if her imperfect limbs and back (and head  ) work for her, then is her conformation actually bad? 

If she was unproven, then fine, but she is proven, in a variety of jobs. And the foal is to keep, not to sell!

Back to stallion suggestions, you know my wishes - anything that means a ginger baby


----------



## langside (27 November 2010)

I am totally gobsmacked at some of these comments 

totally agree with seabscuit2
good proven mares are hard to come by (look at racing and eventing) so why people are putting the OP off and telling her to invest in an unproven mare puzzles me 

god help me when i post a simular thread on my mare 

chilli morning would be my pennies worth but i've never seen wish upon a star in the flesh
i love mill law but have to admit the 4 offspring i know are 16.2hh +


----------



## silver zaanif (27 November 2010)

TheMule said:



			I'd be genuinely interested to know what would make you say she shouldnt have a foal beyond 'poor conformation'. Her frame isnt great but she can gallop and jump and does a pretty tidy test.  What do you think she'd pass on that would make the foal an expensive bad idea?
		
Click to expand...

as i said with out knowing her pedigree how can you know you are not inbreeding, and yes she has stayed sound and has compeated , but surely she should tick all the boxes before you breed from her , or at least most of them. If she passes on all her bad points and no good ones then you will end up wih a foal that has cost you a lot of money and is no good for the job you want to do. And she does have pretty poor conformation , as you pointed out at the start. i know that no horse is perfect and she may be a great competition horse , but i think you would be much better off buying a nice foal to bring on . there are lots of really nice horses out there , and remember you could choose the best stallion in the world , he will still only be half the foal . i am not saying dont breed from her, i am just saying think very carefully before you do.

I know just what it takes for a horse to stay sound at that level of competition, but that is not the be all and end all of a good horse.

i refer you to the bhs responsiable breeding campaign, ( and i dont agree with the bhs  often!!)


----------



## ElleJS (27 November 2010)

She was out of a new forest x mare correct me if i am wrong? Surely the chance of imbreeding is pretty slim! Not sure how many elite stallions would have similar new forest breeding. 
I don't think the BHS responsible breeding really has anything to do with this example! Any foal out of a proven competition mare is not irresponsible imo. 
However I do see your point sz that perhaps you could spend the money on a well bred youngster. However the OP here has spent alot of time and effort producing this tough, athletic mare to a respectible level and therefore wants to reap the rewards- perhaps not financially and more for sentimental reasons. (for her own benifits with out any intention of selling the foal) The foal if sold, worst case scenario will always have a proven event mare as it's damn and a well chosen sire (regardless of dams conformation) and will carry some worth in British Breeding. She isn't just any mare. 
My mares dam only made it to novice before she injured herself and was put in foal. She produced 3 4* eventers out of 4. 

Where I see the point is mare owners putting 'any old' mare in foal for the sake of it. I am totally against that and agree with you wholly but i do think this is a different scenario. I even don't like to see foals out of mares that have no competition record at all however good their breeding and conformation.


----------



## TheMule (27 November 2010)

silver zaanif said:



			If she passes on all her bad points and no good ones then you will end up wih a foal that has cost you a lot of money and is no good for the job you want to do.
		
Click to expand...


But she is good for the job I want to do- she does her job very nicely and is a pleasure to ride, it's great to set out round a big intermediate track and enjoy yourself the whole way round, I finish up beaming. 
She hacks out beautifully, she hunts, she has only had 1 pole down in her last 11 N/IN runs , she has just been registered BSJA and is very competitive and does everything in snaffle with minimum fuss.
So if she passes on all her bad points I'll still end up with a foal like her- fine in my eyes, I'd clone her if I could as she's MY ideal horse. The point of this post is to find a horse which will hopefully build on her weaker whilst keeping her qualities.

Last fence at Highclere in the Int sj- Happy horse, happy rider!


----------



## cundlegreen (27 November 2010)

"I know just what it takes for a horse to stay sound at that level of competition, but that is not the be all and end all of a good horse."

WHAT !!!!! Soundness for an eventer is the be all and end all, IMO
It doesn't matter how well bred it is, if it doesn't stay sound then its not fit for purpose.
Why has nobody mentioned Kings Composer? Certainly won't break the bank re stud fee, producing Grade A's as well as eventers, and all the pics of his offspring jumping have the same style over a fence. They really use their shoulders and tuck up in front, very usefull in an eventer. Having sent my mare there last year, and seen him in the flesh, he would tick all your boxes, and he has the best feet I've ever seen in a TB. In a previous thread of mine, I posted a short video of him. Judge for yourself.
I have to say, with a horse like yours who is a mix of several breeds, you are best to go back to TB. Even Trakehners are a bit of a mix.


----------



## silver zaanif (27 November 2010)

maybe i was trying to say that remaining sound should be a pre-requisite of being a good horse, not a reason a horse is good.


----------



## Avonbrook (27 November 2010)

Following from Cundlegreen I had the pleasure of meeting Kings Composer a few weeks ago.  In winter and now (I think) 18 he still did it for me  and we spent the best part of 3/4 hour in his box chatting with him just chilled and joining in.  A chestnut filly by a 3yo son of his very, very nearly fit in the boot of my car....


----------



## Clodagh (27 November 2010)

Seeing as shes so crap can I have her please!!
I wish I had bred from my last mare who was lacking a few points in the beauty stakes but hunted 3 times a fortnight for 5 seasons, never missed a day and had the heart of a lion. Worth a lot more than a pretty horse who won't go.
I vote tb too, as my vet told me with any cross breed you should go to a purebred to narrow down the odd genes lurking in the background.


----------



## millitiger (27 November 2010)

I would go for full tb or very close if she was mine

Weston Justice
Kings Composer 
Mighty Magic (although maybe his stud fee will be a bit more than your budget for 2011?)


----------



## silver zaanif (27 November 2010)

Clodagh said:



			Seeing as shes so crap can I have her please!!
I wish I had bred from my last mare who was lacking a few points in the beauty stakes but hunted 3 times a fortnight for 5 seasons, never missed a day and had the heart of a lion. Worth a lot more than a pretty horse who won't go.
I vote tb too, as my vet told me with any cross breed you should go to a purebred to narrow down the odd genes lurking in the background.
		
Click to expand...

i never called her crap and i never said the reason IMHO she shouldnt be bred from is because she is not pretty. I'm sorry i posted , you weren't asking weather the mare should be bred from but what stallion to use, i should not have voiced anything and will go and sit on my hands in the corner. i give up!!


----------



## dingle12 (27 November 2010)

TheMule said:



			She hacks out beautifully, she hunts, she has only had 1 pole down in her last 11 N/IN runs , she has just been registered BSJA and is very competitive and does everything in snaffle with minimum fuss.


She does look like she loves her job and is such a fun mare i would have a foal of her any day 

Just had a look at her record and her SJ has got alot better  but must say she has not jumped as good as you say above.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## TheMule (27 November 2010)

dingle12 said:



			Just had a look at her record and her SJ has got alot better  but must say she has not jumped as good as you say above.
		
Click to expand...

Not quite sure what you mean, she has only had 1 pole down in the last 11 novice/ IN runs- I should know, I've ridden her in them! She had a stop at Somerley where she got stuck in the mud, as you can tell by the 3 time penalties.

Anyway, thats laregly irrelevant!


----------



## eventrider23 (27 November 2010)

IMO there are far far far worse mares out there being bred from conformationally who have not done one tenth the ammount competition wise that this mare has and for that reason alone I am in support of her owner in that if she wishes to breed from her after all should it not be her choice????  After all some of the best horses bred come from the most obsure backgrounds!


----------



## dingle12 (27 November 2010)

TheMule said:



			Not quite sure what you mean, she has only had 1 pole down in the last 11 novice/ IN runs- I should know, I've ridden her in them! She had a stop at Somerley where she got stuck in the mud, as you can tell by the 3 time penalties.

Anyway, thats laregly irrelevant!
		
Click to expand...

Sorry my mistake i just looked at sj faults not classes its Int runs for the faults, sorry again.

So who do you have on your short list? are you putting her in foal next year?


----------



## maestro (27 November 2010)

Fr the record the mare has shown more than enough talent and being by the legendary FO it is more than worth the op to breed from. The quality of the foal and if the mare is an easy breeder will then show if it worth continuing.  All that was asked was potential sires.


----------



## Smile_and_Wave (27 November 2010)

does her breeding really matter much at all, surely a mare that has a proven comeptition record is a bouns, personally to me far above anything that might have good breeding, breeding doesnt mean it will stay sound do the job or even produce something like what you want, a lot of eventers dont have proven bloodlines anyway but they still do one of the most demanding sports that there is 

im no help on stallion picking to me it matters very little about what the horse has competed in just that it complements my mare i like the look of it and it has a good temprement, im mainly into dressage but i used a show jump stallion on my mare as he had all the qualities i would look for in a horse stallion or otherwise and i have gotten a very nice foal, he will nto be a world beater but at the end of the day im breeding for myself and im no world beating rider either

although thinking abotu it i do very much like Uptons Deli Circus but he is a very little boy im not sure you would get the height you would want but a very nice and good tempered horse, ive seen him cover and even then he is a very easy tempered horse


----------



## Vickijay (27 November 2010)

Id just like to say I have been out jumping with the lovely moon and she is just awesome. She may not have perfect conformation but Id have her in a heartbeat. Her attitude and way of going just cant be questioned. She has got to a decent level eventing, has a very classy way of going but looks rideable and fun and is sound and tough and that must come into the picture as well.

I used WUAS on my TB mare and am thrilled with her filly. Have seen lots of nice wuas babies. Also brief encounter is a lovely chap and his babies are normally very smart. Graf was lovely when I was a livery where he lived through the summer. I adore Deli cirus and was very tempted to try him. I also liked monte carlo, hes got a really good front but hasnt done much competing and might not be blood enough for you.

MOON RULES!!


----------



## eventrider23 (27 November 2010)

Another one to throw in the mix who, though WB, is very blood, with a lot of TB in there and has a super jump, movement and temperament is El Thuder at Brendons.  I had 2 colts by him and both were AMAZING.  Both were BEF 1st Prems and reserve high scores...one in SJ and other in eventing.  The SJ one was out of a WPB mare that everyone said was silly to be bred from....he is now off in a home where he will be professionally produced.  The other I kept with the intention of retaining him entire and standing at stud....unfortunately he colicked and died earlier this year however the blood he passed onto him was undeniable and he was an amazing and talented colt and I would use the stallion again in a heartbeat!  This was my colt by him: http://equinoxsporthorses.yolasite.com/stallion.php and the one who was 1st prem as a SJ yearling: http://equinoxsporthorses.yolasite.com/the-max-factor.php


----------



## cumbriamax (27 November 2010)

Kings composer seems to produce decent event stock, however I have seen 2 by weston justice this year and one last year, one was out of part bred native I think and they seemed decent youngstock. one I saw did very well at futurity youngstock evaluations and was out of a mare which failed grading.

also don't know who mentioned Glenhill gold but he seems fantastic stallion- favouraite of mine.

re confo;I think the fact that she events to intermedate level proves that she is decent- still sound.you could pick up pretty mare with no comp record and soundness issues for nothing and breed from her but I think this mare being proven in competition is one I'd rather breed from


----------



## sallyf (27 November 2010)

I think if she was mine i would use Grafenstolz on her as i think he would compliment her well conformationally.
He is quite strongly built through the body and compact which i think would even Moons faults out.
You are a pretty professional eventing family and i think Graf would breed you the sort of horse that would take you to the next level.
He is on my shortlist along with Royaldik and also his full brother Meraldik who i slightly prefer but is competed in dressage.
Weston Justice is another on my shortlist as is Mighty Magic who is only available frozen and also another that might suit both you and moon is Sir Shutterfly who is neat and sharp just the sort of horse you like


----------



## shirleyno2 (27 November 2010)

She's the right type of mare to be breeding from. 
 I would choose one that IS bold to his fences, as you said in your opening post. I also wouldn't worry too much about size, foals never cease to amaze me how they vary, even in full siblings, and until you have her 1st foal on the ground you won't know if she throws back the new forest bit!!
I did like Chilli Morning when I saw him in the flesh, he could come and join my team any day! Be lucky


----------



## volatis (27 November 2010)

I wouldnt use Sir Shutteerfly personally, think he needs a good strong old fashioned sort of mare as he is a bit of a weed to be polite! And jump is limited compared to some stallions you can use. Good temperament though, not nearly as sharp as his brother.
Meraldik is a cracker, some super foals by him and he stamps a good frame on them generally. Although the Heraldik connection is there I ahvent seen any eventing bred foals from him yet, but they did look like they would do a job.
Weston Justice I really like and he has both a strong performance pedigree and strong performance record himself. Thats a family that wants to get you over the fences!
WUAS I like , he is a butty compact type, but when I saw him at BYEH as a 5yo I think he was, I felt he lacked a bit of scope/blood for top level eventing - hope I am proven wrong.


----------



## magic104 (28 November 2010)

It seems Power Blade is coming to the UK, so another TB to add to the mix!  Im another that would go with a TB for this mare.


----------



## TheMule (28 November 2010)

Thank you for restoring my faith guys, this is exactly the sort of discussion I wanted!!

Lotsd to add into the mix- it's very exciting having so many cracking stallions to choose from


----------



## millitiger (29 November 2010)

Also, not sure if he is available yet or has any foals on the ground to look at but Mister Maccondy looks a nice prospect if you are looking for a blood horse.


----------



## Simsar (29 November 2010)

millitiger said:



			Also, not sure if he is available yet or has any foals on the ground to look at but Mister Maccondy looks a nice prospect if you are looking for a blood horse.
		
Click to expand...

I have been keeping my eye out for him, so if anyone see's that he is standing at stud this seasons please let me know.

Nice choice mt


----------



## millitiger (29 November 2010)

Wonder if you could contact Ruth Edge to see if he is standing next year?

Might drop an email...


----------



## SusieT (29 November 2010)

IMO I wouldn't bother. I'd much rather go spend 1K on a foal with good breeding now as to me she looks like she could throw a bit of a weedy offspring, and the market is so rubbish atm you could pick up a lovely youngster. (Or older, but depends what you want)
She has in her advantage that she has a decent shoulder, but the weak neck and back end just doesn't scream to me- breed me.
If you go ahead I would be going for something with a real bottom on it, probably a irish sport horse to give her a real bit of extra substance as to me she doesn't have much going for her confo wise, and  whilst the performance is not bad at all, if she was a gelding you wouldn't be saying 'I wish he was a mare' type thing.  I will probably get slated for this, but imo if they don't have good conformation, temperment and performance (or a very valid reason e.g injury from kick etc at young age for no performance) they shouldn't be being bred from. She ticks two (at a push, you say she's good but not that bold temperment wise but I'm assuming good in the stable etc.) 

Jumbo would be my stallion of choice, substance, proven boldness, produces great eventers and on the plus side she has lovely big ears.


----------



## GinnieRedwings (29 November 2010)

Call me naive, but I will never understand why someone asking for suggestions on how to breed a youngster for themselves out of their beloved and in this case very successful competition mare has to be met with a barrage of "no-one should be allowed to breed from this fugly" and "your money would be better spent doing xyz". 

I so resent this attitude for all sorts of reasons not least for having had all sorts of really enjoyable experiences onboard what could have been described as a serious fugly, who proved to be one of the most useful horses ever, competed hard and stayed sound throughout his teens and in his twenties taught my friend to actually enjoy galloping in the stubbles and her other half to ride. Sadly put to sleep at the age of 25 (bloody greys and their melanomas...) two years ago last month and sadly missed. If he had been a mare, yes, I would have bred myself a mini-Murphy, because he might not have been the prettiest horse, but he was certainly worth his weight in gold.

Getting back to the topic that should not have been left... 

I like King's Composer for her.

Let us know what you pick x


----------



## tigers_eye (29 November 2010)

Or you could be mad and line-breed to FO - Leprince des bois? Currently being collected from: http://www.grandprix-replay.com/content/leprince-des-bois-en-france-pour-la-monte

I'd recommend going to the stallion parade at Hartpury, I think measuring them up against each other in a comparable environment can't be beaten.


----------



## eventrider23 (29 November 2010)

As well as the one at Hartpury there is the one at Addington on 5th & 6th  Feb at Addington - think SJ and eventers are 5th and dressage horses are the 6th.


----------



## GinnieRedwings (29 November 2010)

eventrider23 said:



			As well as the one at Hartpury there is the one at Addington on 5th & 6th  Feb at Addington - think SJ and eventers are 5th and dressage horses are the 6th.
		
Click to expand...

As I will be 40 on 7th Feb, I might make the trip as a birthday present to myself 

Will you be there eventrider23?


----------



## eventrider23 (29 November 2010)

I am certainly hoping to be there!


----------



## GinnieRedwings (29 November 2010)

Perhaps we can meet up ad swap notes if we both manage it x


----------



## eventrider23 (29 November 2010)

Hopefully!!!  Make plans closer to time!


----------



## magic104 (30 November 2010)

As this is an open forum we should expect some negative views.  The reason people put so much emphasis on conformation is that by & large this dictates how well a horse can stay sound & be upto the job it was bred for.  You will always get the not so well conformed horse doing better then expected, but that does not mean it will breed something with the same attitude.  There was a number of not so conformational correct horses doing well at Addington last week, but there are plenty that dont make the grade because of their weakness.  The poster is breeding for themselves & it is their money & time that will be invested so though I dont think (because of her performance) they should not breed, I do think others have a valid point when they suggest not doing so.

It never surprises me how so many people are willing to suggest stallions for mare owners when they have nothing to look at.  The mare owner has given no breeding details or put a photo up yet people clammer to suggest stallions.  The mare is the most important eliment & if you dont know the breeding then you have no idea what she may throw until she starts breeding.  I am sorry but I think those that have suggested not breeding have a  right so voice their concerns.  There have been plenty of stallions that have had a great performance record themselves yet failed to pass this on.  What makes anyone think that a mare will have more success.


----------



## sallyf (30 November 2010)

magic104 said:



			As this is an open forum we should expect some negative views.  The reason people put so much emphasis on conformation is that by & large this dictates how well a horse can stay sound & be upto the job it was bred for.  You will always get the not so well conformed horse doing better then expected, but that does not mean it will breed something with the same attitude.  There was a number of not so conformational correct horses doing well at Addington last week, but there are plenty that dont make the grade because of their weakness.  The poster is breeding for themselves & it is their money & time that will be invested so though I dont think (because of her performance) they should not breed, I do think others have a valid point when they suggest not doing so.

It never surprises me how so many people are willing to suggest stallions for mare owners when they have nothing to look at.  The mare owner has given no breeding details or put a photo up yet people clammer to suggest stallions.  The mare is the most important eliment & if you dont know the breeding then you have no idea what she may throw until she starts breeding.  I am sorry but I think those that have suggested not breeding have a  right so voice their concerns.  There have been plenty of stallions that have had a great performance record themselves yet failed to pass this on.  What makes anyone think that a mare will have more success.
		
Click to expand...

But some of us have seen conformation pictures of this mare and followed her progress over the last few years.
Some of us also know that she is by Fleetwater opposition and out of a NF X mares so have based our stallion thoughts on that.
I do agree that everyone is entitled to there own opinion but i also think that is someone wants to breed from there mare to produce another horse for thenselves should be allowed to as well.
This mare also has a talented full sister so its not like she is a freak the bloodlines obviously work.
I often dont reply to these posts as often they are about mares that i do feel shouldnt be bred from or people are over covering mares ie unsound/unproven mares with poor conformation to very expensive stallions hoping to produce the next olympic horse.
But this mare and her owner are slightly differant as the mare although not perfect is proven is owned by people who are both talented and experienced .


----------



## magic104 (30 November 2010)

sallyf I totally agree with you, all Im saying is that very often the full background is not available & other peoples veiws are based on what they know.  In this instance they are going by the photo & what info was first available.


----------



## TheMule (30 November 2010)

Some people clearly understand why I want to breed from her, others dont.
Sure there's a lot of sentiment behind it but also, I have ridden a lot of horses (some very nice ones and some very decent competition horses) for other people and I buy them for myself from time to time but no horse has ever given me feel or pleasure like she does.

Perhaps a more recent pic demonstrates her bottom and neck have developed since the original pic (which was taken as a 5yr old but I wanted you to give an honest picture of her raw basics)


----------



## eventrider23 (30 November 2010)

The Mule - please do not let people detract you.  Yes your mare has, as you yourself know and admit, several conformational faults...actually probably brought about by the pony x as I can see a lot of pony in her...however this could also be her ace in the hole as ponies are so notoriously hardy and theerfore if crossed right, you could well end up with something very sporty, talented and sound.

Personally I woudl not go with Graf as I think she needs to add something a bit more to the mix than another pure Trakehner.  Someone has said look at the crosses JuliaFSH has done as she has a FO son and uses him on her own mares and so with that in mind, maybe look at the lines of these mares and which have been successful crosses and see if you can find something of similar breeding.

I do stick by my original suggestions of Wish Upon a Star (NOT pure Trak) and Brief Encounter, mainly due to their compactness, which is something she needs and the fact that teh foals I have seen by them have been awesome.

Another option to add to the mix is Power Blade seeing as he has recently been brought to the UK - look him up under his name on FB as his website is not yet up and running.  He is without a doubt a proven pure TB event sire of some of the best breeding and now knowing he will be in the UK I hope to be able to find a mare to afford to send to him.

Chilli Morning, from what I have seen of him, is beautifully schooled and definitely proving himself at the highest levels.

As someone else has suggested, another option would be Meraldik.  He is out of the same dam as Royaldik, and thus out of the full sister to the leading eventing sire, Heraldik but by the dressage sire Münchhausen who would inevitably add that lift and elevation that you seek. Plus the fact that he himself appears more shorter backed and would thus suit her as a potential sire.


----------



## Ted's mum (30 November 2010)

silver zaanif said:



			you may not like my reply , but i think you should grade this mare before you cosider breeding from her, it is so important to get an idipendant , proffesional opinion before you breed from any horse , and it will also help you to decide on a stallion for her as the score sheet may pick out things posative and negative and if you ask the judges they are bound to recomend stallions that may compliment her.
		
Click to expand...

I agree


----------



## eventrider23 (30 November 2010)

Not to raise a hornet's nest but how 'independant' are those evaluations.  I know for a fact that on the continent the 'independant' grading panels consist of judges evaluating their OWN horses....whether mare or stallion.  In this country, only a handful of mares are graded and yes it would be fantastic if more were however it is not a necessity and nor should it be.  You don't see people telling breeders like Preci Spark or Billy Stud that before they should breed from their mares that they should have them all graded? No...because they are trusted in their judgement.  The fact is, that this mare has proven herself far more than most mares being bred from and I dare say a lot more than a lot being bred from on here by people.  I have nothing to do with this user and never met her or heard of her before this post however, this poor maree yes may have her faults but that has not stopped her proving herself above and beyond that of many horses.   The FACT is that if she stepped up to Advanced level competition, she would be AUTOMATICALLY accepted as a graded mare with many studbooks...without even looking at her.

Who is to say all of these stallions awarded grading status based on competition results should be bred from?  Look at Peppermill, Chilli Morning and many many more...both failed or didn't grade as stallions and yet went out and proved themselves to be worthy competitors and are now graded stallions based on these facts.  Look at what is going on with cloning....many horses were gelded for VERY good reasons and a prime example of this is E.T.  He has since been cloned and without being presented for public grading, was automatically given graded stallion approval based on the performance record of the horse he was cloned from.  Does this mean he is worthy of being a stallion?  I don't know...the proof will be in the pudding I guess but on that front my personal opinon is no...he was gelded as he was not a suitable stallion prospect.

So.....why should this mare be graded?  She has more than earnt the right to reproduce based on her own achievements and the owner clearly has taken into account her downfalls and is seeking to attempt to rectify them.  Yes, this may backfire and the foal may come out with all the bad points, but then again it may pay off and a world beater be produced.  I myself bred a WPB mare who I simply had a 'gut feeling' about to a WB stallion....against lots of advice and with many people calling me an idiot....the resulting foal was superb and went on to be a 1st Prem BEF SJ Yearling and Reserve High Score of the day and one of the top 15 in the country.  He is now in a home where he is being produced with the aims of a professional career.

So..back to the OP's question instead of discussing suitability to breed...what stallions do people think suitable?


----------



## SusieT (30 November 2010)

Great if it works.
Not great if the foal goes lame, say does a suspensory early in life due to straight hocks contributing. Or say it comes out poorly put together, and the owner has money trouble, or something else happens.
Poor conformation does not a lame horse make, but many lame horses have poor conformation. I could post pictures of one of my horses and be told not to breed him, as he is the most godawful put together horse, but he has the most superb temperment, and excellent competition results, and has stayed sound...until his late teens when he broke down mainly due to that poor conformation.
How old is this mare? How much has she proven her 'soundness'. I disagree she has earnt the right to reproduce simply because she can jump 1.20 (thats about intermediate height, right?)
To be fair, her bottom has improved in the second picture, but it just emphasises the poor neck to me now, and yes I think the cross is the reason for her flaws, I personally don't like tbx pony crosses as to me they generally come out a bit shot in front, and not all that scopey, and small. Depends on the sire and dam obviously
.I don't understand why one wouldn't just enjoy the horse you have, and if you want a nicer horse put the money towards an excellent youngster that will have the breeding and conformation behind it to make it as likely to succeed as it can-surely that is more likely to create a successful event horse for yourself?
You say that  you would want it for yourself-what if said foal is only up to riding club? Will you just keep it? or breed from it? Or what?
There are plenty of horses out there yes that do compete etc. looking bad, but would any of you aim to breed  foal with bad conformation? These are not planned to have poor conformation but either accidents or poor breeding.


----------



## TheMule (30 November 2010)

SusieT- She will be 10 next year.
Intermediate sj is up to 1.25 but generally yes, a 1.20 track. Jump 1.20 and repeatedly jump 1.20 tracks out of all sorts of ground are very different things. I agree, she probably wouldnt be scopey enough to be a really good pure sjer (but I dont want that, I want a 1.20 horse) Actually, in the opinion of several TOP professionsals (I won't name drop but there's already a clue in 2 1 of the pics I've posted) she is a pretty decent horse and they believe her more than capable of being an advanced horse. A pro YR rode her for me when I was doing my finals (she was 6yr old) and jumped her round some 1.40 tracks (and yes, I have video eidence!) and here's a still- this is a 1.50 spread
Small she may be, scopeless she ain't!!






And I happen to love pony/tb xs- my previous event horse was 1/2 connemara, 1/2 tb and he was also a decent intermediate with 2* form.
Not all that scopey? Try telling him!






Anyway, I happen to enjoy riding small horses, hence why I don't want a big stallion. I do enjoy my horse thankyou, very much- hence why I'd like to do ET, so I can carry on eventing and enjoying her. We buy in youngsters from time to time but I have never found any other horse that I like in the way I like this one. I bought her as a 5yr old because I adore riding her- I knew perfectly well what I was buying as she was sent to me to break in and sell. In fact, I have a half sister by the same stallion who is much more correct but I wouldnt breed from her because she does not have this one's 'can do, will do' attitude.


----------



## SusieT (30 November 2010)

Ok, fair enough, pony x tb and small horse, personal choice. The grey looks lovely. TBH 10 is not to me old enough to be proven to be a 'always sound' horse but that's me, and obviously by the time a horse is 17/18 and still going strong it might be a bit late to breed.
What happens if she produces a riding club/BE100 horse? (ignoring what conformation is produced for now)


----------



## SusieT (30 November 2010)

And yes, she looks good over 1.50, fair enough


----------



## vicijp (30 November 2010)

What a bizarre thread.


----------



## TheMule (30 November 2010)

SusieT said:



			Ok, fair enough, pony x tb and small horse, personal choice. The grey looks lovely. TBH 10 is not to me old enough to be proven to be a 'always sound' horse but that's me, and obviously by the time a horse is 17/18 and still going strong it might be a bit late to breed.
What happens if she produces a riding club/BE100 horse? (ignoring what conformation is produced for now)
		
Click to expand...

Thank you- they grey boy has been a super horse for, he was the one that started the eventing obsession 
The age thing you're right about, I have an option where I can wait until she's ready to stop eventing, by which time she may be too old to breed from or I can wait and see if she needs time off through injury like many people do- but I wouldnt necessarily want to breed from her if I felt her weakness was the cause of injury. ET now, or maybe in another years time is a way of getting myself a horse for when she is ready to stop eventing.

If she produces something scopeless and boring and not what I want personally I will do the responsible thing- find it a more suitable home. If it was a lame donkey with no future prospects it would take the short trip down the road to Potters. Do I think thats likely to happen?! I wouldnt have thought so 

Luckily I have a decent job earning a good wage in an area which is never likely to be hard to find another job on, we have our own land and one hell of a lot of experience of riding, training, competing and even breeding


----------



## SusieT (30 November 2010)

right so it will be for sale if it is not suitable for you. So you should be breeding with the mind to give the potential horse a good chance at succeeding at life. Which means good conformation, temperment and breeding all together. That's my point. I'm going to avoid replying again as I think I've made my point numerous times and you're set on the idea that you somehow are doing something different to thousands of mare owners who breed because it has ovaries and would be 'nice to have a foal from her' so I don't think you're going to listen.


----------



## Hollycat (30 November 2010)

Personally I love a pony x TB and I like this mare.  Nothing fancy about her but she does what it says on the tin - jumps, looks after her rider and gives a HUGE amount of fun and pleasure at a level that many horses may be capable of, but in actual fact never get to.  My first pony was one of these types of horses (connie x TB) and I have nothing but good memories of him   Sure his conformation was not that great either but he was a gem 

Re breeding - I am not so sure how easy the next cross down the line is with a pony cross. If you can try and find a breeder that does just this and has experience with the next cross on as it were - then they may have good advice on pitfalls and what to expect.  I would also reccommend to stick with a pure TB.  I don't think a flashy name is so much of what you need in the stallion.  More find a TB stallion that is time after time stamping his stock with the attributes you want to improve and does so with a variety of different mares - so you know that yes, he does pass on a powerful backend, a nice neck etc etc when crossed not just with nice purebreds but also with mares of more mixed parentage. I am not into breeding TBs or event horses so sorry I have no actual suggestions.

I know it is easy to say buy a fantastic youngster, but it very much depends on your relationship with your horse and your ultimate aims.  OP seems to be someone that really loves and cares for this mare. Competition success, though important is not be the be all and end all.  If she just wants a fab competition horse I would agree and say go buy it and know what you are getting. But it is the process of breeding a foal from a beloved mare that I think the OP also has an interest in.  Once you have a horse you click with it is something very hard to replace and maybe it is illogical but our little human hearts crave to have the relative of the one that gave us so much pleasure.  That is if we are doing it for the fun and love of the horse than just for rosettes.

At the end of the day, if the foal is no better than the mare its still going to be a horse that gives lots of pleasure to someone whether as an advanced eventer or a happy hacker. I would say to the OP go for it.  Chances are she won't get a monster and she won't get a superstar but something in between - but if she is lucky........


----------



## magic104 (30 November 2010)

I have to say I dont remember another poster getting so much anti breeding from their mare & am a bit confused by it.  I dont think there is anything wrong with any of the views as this is a public forum, but why has the mare had such a reaction, when there have been others that have not had any breeding info or the competition record of this mare.  I will stick with what I said before & would chose a TB stallion (that stamps his stock) rather then a WB or ISH.


----------



## kit279 (30 November 2010)

Blimey, this thread is amazing!

OP wants to breed a foal from her lovely scopey little mare and wants advice on stallions - end of.  If I post in Soapbox asking which gas guzzling sports car I want to buy, do I expect to get a lot of stick about how its a waste of fuel and money and I should get a Ford Fiesta on LPG?!!! 

OP knows what she's about, has lots of experience and she would like to breed from her precious and proven mare.  If Opposition Buzz was a mare, no doubt he'd fail a grading and posters on here would slate his conformation.  But he is a proven horse and handsome is as handsome does.  OP doesn't want just any cheap youngster, she wants a foal out of HER mare!

OP, I'd go with Grafenstolz - he seems to stamp his stock very strongly, they all look very similar in a good way.


----------



## Springs (30 November 2010)

Hi All,

I also find it odd that so many have said not to breed from this mare. Quite stunned realy, I think she is great, *proven* and would not have any second thoughts to breeding from her, the bigest challange would be to find a good stallion that will improve the conformation in the young stock produced.

Good luck.


----------



## GinnieRedwings (30 November 2010)

Hollycat said:



			Re breeding - I am not so sure how easy the next cross down the line is with a pony cross. If you can try and find a breeder that does just this and has experience with the next cross on as it were - then they may have good advice on pitfalls and what to expect.
		
Click to expand...

Cundlegreen on here has a Section D stallion graded with the SPSS. She has a 5 year old filly by him out of a TB mare. That filly achieved Elite for eventing at the BEF Futurity evaluations 2 years ago, I think. Pony x TB first cross.

She retained the filly and had her covered last year by King's Composer and the resulting foal is a cracker, who achieved a High First Premium at the Futurity this year, with an impressive 9.5 from the vet. Pony x TB x TB second cross = as far as I can see a perfect small eventer.


----------



## Kao (30 November 2010)

I know I've already replied but...
Since you aren't getting her graded (not a massive problem since she's clearly proven) and you want a small foal, I'd highly reccomend a Connie.
We had a Connie x TB (16.1hh) and he was pretty much perfect. I was able to hack him out and go for a good canter round the fields when I was 10 (never been overly confident for my age ) yet he was a 3* eventer.
Unfortunately he was pts after a terrible fall on the XC.
But, to me, TB (or any type of sport horse) x Connie is the best mix for nice little sturdy eventer.
So, I think you should go for that 

Good luck with whatever you choose though!


----------



## TheMule (30 November 2010)

Thank you to those of you who have answered my question and contributed to this thread constructively.
To the others- sorry, I'll try to breed from her anyway and then in 6 years time I hope to be on here bragging about how wonderful my homebred is!

Afterall, how many would recommend breeding from this? Weedy neck, long in the back, very weak back end.







Full sister to a very good 3* horse. Produced this (as a 2yr old)-


----------



## Kao (30 November 2010)

TheMule said:



			Afterall, how many would recommend breeding from this? Weedy neck, long in the back, very weak back end.







Full sister to a very good 3* horse. Produced this (as a 2yr old)-






Click to expand...

Wow o_o


----------



## Baydale (30 November 2010)

TheMule said:



			Thank you to those of you who have answered my question and contributed to this thread constructively.
To the others- sorry, I'll try to breed from her anyway and then in 6 years time I hope to be on here bragging about how wonderful my homebred is!
		
Click to expand...

Our broodmare isn't that special looking but of the two we've bred the Grafenstolz one is a real cracker; as kit279 says, he does really stamp his stock. Have a look on his Facebook page as there are loads of breeders' photos, not just the glossy advertising ones.

I wish you the best of luck with whatever you decide, TM. It's your money, your decision and as you've said, you will (responsibly) live with the consequences if the mini-Moon isn't the horse of your dreams.


----------



## Baggybreeches (1 December 2010)

I will say that if thats a poor breeding mare, then I am a Chinaman! 
FWIW I flit between thoughts on grading, I had my mare graded as a youngster because I believed it would enhance her status as a broodmare, she graded with good feedback and was bursting full of potential at 5 years old. However competition wise she is what could only be described as an epic fail! She does not have the brain to tolerate anything other than very low level competitions, and now I am rueing the waste of money but c'est la vie, that's horses!
I love Moon and I personally believe that she should go to the best possible stallion available that will compliment her weaker points and strengthen her best features.


----------



## Aces_High (1 December 2010)

WOW - if decide to breed I certainly won't be posting on here! 
The grading thing I can sort of see but I think it's a lot of tosh. (I can see why it's done for pure breeds and breed improvers.)  I have never seen one graded racehorse broodmare!  It all goes on performance.  Yes lots of the mares and stallions have bad conformation but they can still be sound and perform and produce top class offspring.  I am aware that eventers have a longer working life than most racehorses.  With the right regime and a very good vet it's amazing what horses can be kept sound.  
What would I personally do?  I'd certainly breed from her.  Yes she's a little long in the back - plenty of room to carry a foal.  Always looked for when at the Dec sales when viewing fillies to be potential broodmares.  
The fact her breeding isn't known on her dam's side.  Not the end of the world at all and I am sure due to the pony in her the likelyhood of inbreeding is remote. But have a look at some TB ped's and you'll see just how closely you can inbreed a horse and not get any problems.  No one can predict how the offsprings conformation is going to be.  Yes you can *HOPE* to minimise it by breeding from a correct mare and a correct stallion but you can still get a lot of conformation faults.  I don't know much about event stallions but I do like the Primitive stallions and Primitive Proposal is seriously smart.  With racehorses you call the studs and view all the stallions one after the other and make notes.  You get to see their gait, temperament, conformation and their record is written in the stallion guides.  I would recommend you calling the studs where the stallions stand and popping over to see them.  You will learn a lot and it's very interesting.  Also you'll be able to see the offspring and an idea on what you might get.  On another note - seeing you have a good job.... why not continue to event your mare and do an embryo transfer?  Best of both worlds then!
I would just like to add - it's great to see a proven event mare is going to have a foal and not just a broken down paddock companion which looks sweet from afar!


----------



## magic104 (1 December 2010)

"The grading thing I can sort of see but I think it's a lot of tosh. (I can see why it's done for pure breeds and breed improvers.) I have never seen one graded racehorse broodmare!" - Not sure where you have been looking but you will find them in the HIS.


----------



## maestro (1 December 2010)

Remind me who the 2 year old is by.


----------



## TheMule (1 December 2010)

maestro said:



			Remind me who the 2 year old is by.
		
Click to expand...

That would be the marvellous Weston Justice who managed to really stamp her with his big bottom and fantastic neck, added in his bold outlok and gallop and kept all the mares good points too.
Said 2 year old is now 5 and a little cracker- here she is doing her first 3ft hunter trial-


----------



## chrissie1 (1 December 2010)

kept out of this so far!

I think I will just say, especially having seen the se photos of the WJ horse, that the proof of the pudding is very def. in the eating.  I'd bred from her in a heartbeat, and a very wise old stallion man once said to me that 'the best mares don't always breed the best foals'.  This was in the days before Grading was 'invented' in the UK, and he stood TB's mostly used on 'hunter' mares for showing or hunting purposes.


----------



## Aces_High (1 December 2010)

magic104 said:



			"The grading thing I can sort of see but I think it's a lot of tosh. (I can see why it's done for pure breeds and breed improvers.) I have never seen one graded racehorse broodmare!" - Not sure where you have been looking but you will find them in the HIS.
		
Click to expand...

HIS isn't/wasn't breeding flat racehorses - as far as I was aware!!


----------



## KatB (1 December 2010)

TheMule, I think Primitive Proposal is definitely one to look at for Moon.. all the ones I have seen by him are short, with a fantastic shoulder and neck. All have been quite deep too which is nice! They are all very very bold in their outlook too


----------



## Aces_High (1 December 2010)

KatB said:



			TheMule, I think Primitive Proposal is definitely one to look at for Moon.. all the ones I have seen by him are short, with a fantastic shoulder and neck. All have been quite deep too which is nice! They are all very very bold in their outlook too 

Click to expand...


----------



## millitiger (1 December 2010)

KatB said:



			TheMule, I think Primitive Proposal is definitely one to look at for Moon.. all the ones I have seen by him are short, with a fantastic shoulder and neck. All have been quite deep too which is nice! They are all very very bold in their outlook too 

Click to expand...

Apart from mine- out of a 16.1.hh mare and as a 4yro is now 18hh!

his neck is probably the weakest part of him and he is all legs. He does have super limbs, and great conf apart from a slightly peacock neck though.

on the above of what he should be, I would get him DNA checked apart from the fact he is the absolute spit of PP himself!


----------



## Alec Swan (1 December 2010)

The Mule,

the only person who really knows your mare is you,  so I'm hardly qualified to comment,  but I'm going to!!  Were your mare mine,  then I wouldn't give it a second thought.  

Looking at your pics,  I "think",  that in your shoes,  I'd give serious consideration to Primores Pride.  He's a grand horse,  he has serious breeding behind him,  and though hardly promoted,  he is achieving results.  His owners are just the loveliest people,  to deal with and he's not that far from you.

Alec.


----------



## TJP (1 December 2010)

Oh My Goodness what a thread..  

I'm in Ireland, currently looking for a stallion so understand the headbender you are having at the minute but the stallions I am looking at are on the wrong side of the pond.  12 months ago I would have picked Master Imp or French Buffet for your lovely lady but unfortunately both have passed on.

If I owned your mare I would breed from her in a heartbeat - & before anyone picks this up and shoots me I have & have had  mares here who I love/d & who will be stay with me until they go to the pasture in the sky but I would not breed from them, however I will be breeding from my Kings Theatre mare who has been there and done that successfully.  Some of the big bonuses for me with that particular mare are that she raced from aged 2 and remained sound - she has retired to stud sound, she had several placings (2nds & thirds) on the flat and wins & placings over fences.  She also has a nice attitude to life.  I am looking at Cloverhill bloodlines for her.

Good luck


----------



## pinktiger (2 December 2010)

i have only read a few posts but some are off topic imo.  I got the impression the OP wasnt asking if she should grade this mare of if shes a suitable mother or an event horse!!!!!!!  She was asking for a stallion!!!!!   clearly wants to, and is going to breed from her!!!!!!! I dont see why not,, her confo isnt perfect but shes got herself and her rider to a good level with the confo she has got, and the op will clearly improve on that!!!!  

IN ans to your question i really think its advantagous to not just look at pictures of stallions but to go and actually see them and spend a few miniutes with them ect (its also loads of fun stallion shopping)!!!

I was at a stallion parade at badders last year and saw chilli morning and WUAS both were stunning and had massive jumps and scope to burn, they seemed to move well and coped beautifully with the atmosphere at badders(there were some naughty ones but these two were angels in particular)!!!  Not sure where they stand but im sure if you contacted the studs they would be more than willing to help as im sure any stud would be!!!

Very best of luck breeding from your lovely mare and keep us informed of your/her progress!!!!


----------



## Weezy (3 December 2010)

I love Moon.  If the foal is too big for you I will have it 

I would deffo say NOT to put her to Jumbo tho... I don't think he would be on your list anyway, but I really do not think he and she would go together at all...I have my reasons!


----------



## Santa_Claus (3 December 2010)

I'm another moon fan, can't help on stallions as never pay any notice  but agree something fairly high on the TB mix, short couple with a good bum and nicely set neck would suit her nicely.

She has more than proved herself with results and ability and although her conformation isn't great its not sending me running for the hills 

Alternatively you could just clone her though I suspect thats a bit expensive


----------



## christine48 (5 December 2010)

I have found this thread unbelievable and can't believe how insulting some posts have been. The owner was fully aware of her mare's faults and was only asking for suggestions. You only have to go to the trot up at a 4* event and see that some of the horse's conformation leaves a lot to be desired yet there they are competing at a high level. 
This mare has proved her soundness, ability and temperement so why not breed. 
We bred from a mare who had less than perfect conformation ( she was a good performance horse too). She was long in the back, flat crouped and a bit straight in the shoulder yet by picking the correct stallions with good conformation she produced 6 cracking foals by different stallions.
One  3* eventing, One won at HOYS, 5 & 6 yr olds  eventing successfully at the moment and 4 yr old was 2nd in YEH final this year.The 6th (a 3 yr old ) is still in the field and shock horror we may breed from her next year (sure that will get some reactions!!)
Good luck with the stallion selection, there are a couple of stallion parades in the new year it might be useful to go along and see them in the flesh.


----------



## eventrider23 (5 December 2010)

Hear hear Christine48 - well said!


----------

