# Long reining - who does it? Benefits?



## saskia295 (31 March 2010)

Hi all! I was just thinking (steady!) and wondered how many of you long rein your horse(s)? 

I haven't done it before and have only ever lunged, however, I would like to long rein, but obviously don't want to screw it up.

Also, do you think it hugely benefits your horse? And why?

Thankies


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## GreyBadger (31 March 2010)

I do it when breaking in, as it makes them nice and handy before getting on top. Not that I subscribe to the 'long rein it for 7 years before riding it' school of though; it's just part of the few weeks before riding on.

I also continue to long rein them, as it allows to develop lateral suppleness without having a rider on top - seeing them do a nice shoulder in, half pass, etc from the ground on the long lines is lovely. How often depends on the horse, but with my 5 y/o (who's starting eventing proper this year), I long rein him perhaps once a fortnight to keep it ticking over.

It's actually very easy to do right - start lunging, with the outer line just over the saddle and not doing anything. Then, flick it down so it rests on top of the hocks as the horse is going round (watch out for them flying forwards at that point!) to get them used to it. Then you can start using the line as you would an outside rein when riding. Just be careful to not pull a horse around a turn, or you'll ruin its mouth, rather allow with an outer hand.


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## JustMe22 (31 March 2010)

I have, but only on a circle really, so more like lunging with two reins. Mostly because I have no idea how to do it so you can teach leg yields and the like, although I do know its possible.

I think it benefitted mine quite a lot. I was injured and couldn't ride for 3 months. The long lines made it much easier to work him both sides, and obviously I could get him to listen to my outside rein as well as the inside, which is more difficult on a lunge. I also didn't need any gadgets or aids and found he went very nicely. Slightly irrelevant but it helped teaching him voice commands too, because on the downwards if he didn't listen, you have the power to halt them  Also, when I ride I start by stretching him. He can do it on the lunge fine now, but then he still got confused and having the two reins helped him understand I wanted him to flex then stretch his neck down the same as under saddle.

I think its partly because I lunge only off the inside bit ring though, so I have no contact with the outside part of the bit when I lunge, so it was a big difference for me.


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## saskia295 (31 March 2010)

Thanks GB that's great. I always thought that long reining was just for youngsters so I was interested to see if people still do it with their older horses. Mine will be 7 this year and although our lateral work is 'ok', I wondered if doing more of it on the ground long reining (without me to put him off!) would help get it a bit more established as we are aiming to move up the ranks a bit this year.


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## GreyBadger (31 March 2010)

saskia295 said:



			I wondered if doing more of it on the ground long reining (without me to put him off!) would help get it a bit more established as we are aiming to move up the ranks a bit this year.
		
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To be brutally honest, if it's only 'OK' with you on board then it will only stay 'OK', no matter how much long reining you do. On board, the aids are a lot more subtle than when long reining (you can't use your pelvis alignment and weight distribution when you're not on board, for example, which is key to so much correct lateral work). I use LR to get the horse used to moving laterally, and then refine it from on board. The fancy stuff on the LR is just for a bit of fun, really, and for me to see how they're progressing without me on top teaching them.

Of course, others will have a different opinion on it, this is just my view.


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## GreyBadger (31 March 2010)

BUT! As long as the LR is done correctly, then it's not going to do any harm.


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## millitiger (31 March 2010)

i longrein mine quite a bit.

when pilfer is at home (16yro) he is prbably longreined twice a week- really helps with his flatwork as he can be tricky on the flat and it has really improved him contact and got him working over the back.

Vinnie (4yro) obviously does a lot of long reining. his is more to establish steering and get him out and about to see the world rather than schooling though.

Millie (6yro) does longreining about once a week in the arena. i find it much easier to get her to work than when she is lunging. she does bits of lateral work and lateral flexion to get her really soft over her back.


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## horseywelsh (31 March 2010)

I am not a fan of lunging and always LR if i'm backing youngsters, or needing to do some groundwork. Also first few times on the road for babies i long rein them with an assistant walking up front (not necessarily leading but there if need be). LR over/round obstacles as well when baby training. Once they are established i don't tend to do much LR, no reason why you can't though, won't do any harm if done correctly.


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## Bearskin (31 March 2010)

Be careful if you do.  You can really screw up a horse's mouth if you are not experienced at long-reining.  It takes a lot of feel and a very well trained horse for it to be of benefit.
I have two young horses with me at the moment who were both long-reined (by someone else) when being broken.  Their mouths are very complicated, as a result of being pulled a lot by inexperienced trainers.  
Long reining off the cavesson, instead of the bit, is a safer option if you are inexperienced at it.


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## TarrSteps (31 March 2010)

Bearskin said:



			Be careful if you do.  You can really screw up a horse's mouth if you are not experienced at long-reining.  It takes a lot of feel and a very well trained horse for it to be of benefit.
I have two young horses with me at the moment who were both long-reined (by someone else) when being broken.  Their mouths are very complicated, as a result of being pulled a lot by inexperienced trainers.  
Long reining off the cavesson, instead of the bit, is a safer option if you are inexperienced at it.
		
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I would second this and have also seen horses get very behind/fussy/defensive in their mouths.  For some horses and in some hands, even the pressure from the weight of the rein can be too much.  Also, given the configuration, the driver has A LOT of leverage and I am very mindful of the fragility of the horse's neck and jaw.  As suggested, drive off the halter/cavesson initially, until you're both ticking over reasonably well.  

Which is not to say it's a bad idea, just, like everything else, it's not for every horse/rider and there are downsides.  So long as you're aware of them and mindful of the risks, it can be very useful.

Also, be very careful when you put the rein behind.  Don't do it with the horse moving and be careful when you do.  Most horses that have been started decently, worn blankets etc. should be fine with it after a minute or two but every now and then you'll get one that really turns itself inside out.


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## GreyBadger (31 March 2010)

Bearskin said:



			Be careful if you do.  You can really screw up a horse's mouth if you are not experienced at long-reining.  It takes a lot of feel and a very well trained horse for it to be of benefit.
		
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Yes indeed. I was indicating that in my comment: "Just be careful to not pull a horse around a turn, or you'll ruin its mouth, rather allow with an outer hand.". Of course, you can (and people have) written whole books about long reining. Best to be shown by somebody who knows what they're talking (and doing) about.

BUT I disagree that a horse needs to be well trained for it to be of benefit. It can be part of that very training.


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## saskia295 (1 April 2010)

Thanks everybody. Some really useful advice. I think I will have a discussion with my instructor as I really don't want to screw it up. Did some lateral bits yesterday schooling so that is working for now! x


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## Baked Bean (1 April 2010)

I love long reining, it helps you to form a bond with your horse, as you are each more reliant on more subtle signals than when riding, it can help with straightness, obedience, keeping a soft topline, working through from behind, confidence - lateral work is for those more experienced.  You can do it for fun, you get a totally different perspective of your horse, you see how they move, you can watch their hips, shoulders and footfalls, see easily if your horse is crooked, and it is very good for buliding trust. You can move on to making obstacles in the school with poles and long reining around, through and over them.  Richard Maxwell has an interesting take on long reining, if you get a chance to see him, he is cool. As long as you keep a very light contact and concentrate on going forwards, it's hard to go wrong. Give it a try and see how you go. If you get in a pickle, get someone with experience to demonstrate and get your horse used to it. Good luck!


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## Orangehorse (1 April 2010)

It is very useful as you can see how the horse is going.  BUT if you haven't done it before it is best to practice with a quiet horse that is used to it, because you will be having trouble handling the reins and standing in the right place.  
The first time do it in a very safe environment, just in case.  If  a horse is frightened, gets loose and then panics with reins dragging after - well, you can imagine.

I am not expert, but my horse was trained to long rein, and I have done a bit.  I was told to hold the reins just as you hold them as if riding with just the weight of the rein as a contact when they are going correctly. 

The trainer was introducing young horses to long reins in a round pen, so they couldn't go anywhere if anything went wrong.  Sometimes they will tie themselves up in a parcel, and that is fun getting it sorted out.


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## Gamebird (2 April 2010)

An interesting discussion as I have just come back from long-reining a pony round the village which is something I haven't done for years. Normally when we break horses someone else does all the ground work and I just show up for the crash-test dummy bit. 

This horse was bought as 'impossible to lunge'. On the first day (yesterday) it lunged beautifully to the left (with a little bit of initial firmness on my part! ) and not very well to the right (kept turning its head and shoulders in and its quarters out and stopping). It was very hard to rectify this with 'conventional' lunging so today I lunged with two lines. I have a saddle on and I run the stirrups down then tie them to the girth and use these to feed the lines through. I like this method as it gives you control over their quarters. You can also change rein much more easily, without stopping at all, and it means I'm inclined to change rein far more frequently. Pony lunged impeccably from the word go!

From here I moved onto circuits of the school in more of a long-reining position (behind but very slightly to the inside) and did some serpentines, walk/halt transitions etc. All was going well so we have done a circuit of the village long-reining. I like to do this as the pony HAS to lead. It isn't following anyone and it learns to go out and about independently without always having a nanny there to rely on. I'll probably do a bit more of this tonight and over the weekend and although I will probably go with a nanny the first time I hack out under saddle I would hope to have the pony sufficiently independent by that stage that it can hack out alone almost straight away. Having some vocal aids which it is familiar with help the transition from long-reining to saddle, especially before it is going properly from the rider's leg.

The things that I noticed could become a problem were mostly on a circle - beware of the outside rein. If you're using it to steer the quarters don't forget that the other end is attached to the bit and you may well be inadvertently asking to horse to bend to the outside or even stop with the outside rein whilst concurrently asking him to go forwards and flex to the inside with the inside rein. There is potential for a very confused pony!


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## teddyt (2 April 2010)

Bearskin said:



			Be careful if you do.  You can really screw up a horse's mouth if you are not experienced at long-reining.  It takes a lot of feel and a very well trained horse for it to be of benefit.
I have two young horses with me at the moment who were both long-reined (by someone else) when being broken.  Their mouths are very complicated, as a result of being pulled a lot by inexperienced trainers.  
Long reining off the cavesson, instead of the bit, is a safer option if you are inexperienced at it.
		
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Totally agree. This is a very interesting piece of research about contact and long reining
http://www.equestrianvaulting.com.au/documents/WSetalReinTension2.pdf

Some researchers have said that as the aim of riding is to have as light a contact as possible, long reining actually doesnt serve much purpose because you dont have the seat and weight aids and rein contact can be much heavier. if the aim is to get the horse used to saddle, hacking out, etc then this should be done by other methods


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## humblepie (2 April 2010)

Nothing useful to add but when my old boy had to stop being ridden but I was still showing him in hand I started long reining him as I wanted him to keep a top line - he probably was 20 plus at the time.  I had no idea what I was doing but fortunately he was very quiet so we learnt together (I think).


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## Tharg (2 April 2010)

Would it also depend on the weight of the rein used?

  I know people like Sylvia Loche use a really light weight looking rope.  No idea what typr though.


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## kerilli (2 April 2010)

i'm not really a fan of it, having had 1 sensible little horse spin when it first felt the outside rope drop down (at halt, and in spite of previous prep, or so i thought) until it was totally wrapped up... very frightening.
also, i hate having to have that much contact on their mouths, but because you are in such a driving position sometimes it is inescapable, just to keep control.


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## kerilli (2 April 2010)

really interesting article, thanks teddyt, do you mind if i do a post referencing that article please, about ridden rein contacts, and the ideal goal of progressively lightening the aids?


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## millitiger (2 April 2010)

i think if you are using the reins to really control the horse so much that you have a heavy contact, it probably isn't the right horse to long rein or you aren't the right person to be doing it!

i start all of mine off the headcollar- my 17.2hh 4yro can long rein in w/t/c including changes of rein with only a finger weight of pressure on a standard headcollar- if you do it right you shouldn't be hauling them around.

when they are good off the headcollar i move to lines with a double clip- one clip to the side of the headcollar, one clip to the bit so you can't pull the mouth.

Pilfer (my older horse) used to lean a lot on my hands when i first got him and worked quite downhill (he previously had BE dressage scores in the late 40's/50's).
working on the long reins actually lightened his contact and his forehand and taught him to carry himself- so he consistently gets scores in the 20's/low 30's now.

some horses don't take the long reining- i've only had one horse who didn't take well to long reining as she used to run straight through the contact and was gone! cheeky madam- i ended up walking her out in a Richard Maxwell headcollar instead.


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## teddyt (2 April 2010)

kerilli said:



			really interesting article, thanks teddyt, do you mind if i do a post referencing that article please, about ridden rein contacts, and the ideal goal of progressively lightening the aids?
		
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I dont mind at all


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## Bearskin (2 April 2010)

Really good article Teddy. Would be very interesting to do a study on the rein tensions of international Dressage horses/riders during their tests and training.


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## Tharg (2 April 2010)

millitiger said:



			when they are good off the headcollar i move to lines with a double clip- one clip to the side of the headcollar, one clip to the bit so you can't pull the mouth.
		
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  Interesting, did you buy the lines with a double clip or did you make it?  If so how please.

  I am keen to give LR ago.

  Unfortunately I have lost all my toggled threads during the forum move.


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## GreyBadger (3 April 2010)

Interesting statement in the article (and ignoring the fact regimes is spelled incorrectly):

"Training regimens for horses are mostly based on negative reinforcement (McLean, 2003)"

Not on my watch... How many school with negative vs. positive reinforcement? Is there a cultural bias? I shall get hold of the reference and have a read...


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## millitiger (3 April 2010)

Tharg said:



			Interesting, did you buy the lines with a double clip or did you make it?  If so how please.

  I am keen to give LR ago.

  Unfortunately I have lost all my toggled threads during the forum move.
		
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i made them myself.

very easy, just get a clip (mine are cut off old leadropes or similar) and thread onto your lungeline; from the handle end and then run it down to the clip.

on mine i tend to start with the secondary clip on the headcollar and the original clip on the bit as i find this gives about a 60/40 ratio of headcollar/bridle.

when they are used to this you can swap around to have slightly more weight on the bit but you still can't pull the mouth.


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## teddyt (3 April 2010)

GreyBadger said:



			Interesting statement in the article (and ignoring the fact regimes is spelled incorrectly):

"Training regimens for horses are mostly based on negative reinforcement (McLean, 2003)"

Not on my watch... How many school with negative vs. positive reinforcement? Is there a cultural bias? I shall get hold of the reference and have a read...
		
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That ref is from a book. Here is another one on learning-
http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/68/1/75.pdf

It was written 20 years ago, which is still recent in equine research terms but there has been much more work since then. I would say alot of training is based on punishment too!

p.s. regimen is another word for regime 




			Really good article Teddy. Would be very interesting to do a study on the rein tensions of international Dressage horses/riders during their tests and training.
		
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I agree, huge scope for researching rein tension in different areas of equitation. Something i am currently working on!


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## Tharg (5 April 2010)

What part of the headcollar do you clip it to Millitiger?

  I think some sailing rope would be light enough to use. How long should be each piece be.

  Thank you


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## millitiger (5 April 2010)

i clip to the side ring of the noseband so it helps with steering.

my lines are about 8ft longer than standard lunge lines i think.


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## TarrSteps (5 April 2010)

Similar to millitiger, I do my initial long reining (which might be all I do, depending on the horse) of a headcollar.  The double clip idea is great.  Another option I use is a light, close fitting headcollar under the bridle, with the noseband rings positioned so they fit under the bit rings (it's a bit of a trick to find a halter adjustable enough for this, I'll admit).  Then I put the clip "through" the bit ring (it's not really through as the clip just sits against the ring) and clip it on to the headcollar ring.  So there is no direct pressure on the bit but it does provide an intermediate feel.  I usually start with the headcollar over top of the bridle then move on to this set up when I'm happy with the horse's reactions.

I also use "over the neck" steering lessons if the horse is short enough (I'm quite tall  ), from both sides.  This is very useful with young horses that are leery of someone/thing over top of them and if the horse wants to duck behind the contact right off the bat.

I don't generally use longe lines, as the lightest ones catch the wind and the good quality ones are too heavy.  I have a couple of different "home made" set ups, depending on the horse and the situation, with light weight rope and clips, bought from the hardware store.  I do have a lovely set of "proper" lines but don't often use them for young horses as they're quite heavy and much more suitable for doing more advanced work.


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## TarrSteps (5 April 2010)

GreyBadger said:



			Interesting statement in the article (and ignoring the fact regimes is spelled incorrectly):

"Training regimens for horses are mostly based on negative reinforcement (McLean, 2003)"

Not on my watch... How many school with negative vs. positive reinforcement? Is there a cultural bias? I shall get hold of the reference and have a read...
		
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Not to hijack but I'm curious about this comment.  Most horse training is a mix of reinforcement methods but I can't think of one that is completely "positive" in the scientific sense of the word, with the possible exception of clicker training and similar.  Punishment has been proven to be largely ineffective but negative reinforcement, along with positive reinforcement, of course, seems to be the general successful approach.

Horses train each other with it, "Come near my food and I'll make a face.  Keep coming and I'll threaten you.  KEEP coming (you idiot) and I'll kick you.  Back off and we don't have a problem."


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## Jul (5 April 2010)

TarrSteps said:



			Horses train each other with it, "Come near my food and I'll make a face.  Keep coming and I'll threaten you.  KEEP coming (you idiot) and I'll kick you.  Back off and we don't have a problem." 

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Really well put example of horse-to-horse training there, BUT I don't think it applies in the same way to ridden/long-lining. That would imply that we wait for them to make a mistake and then correct it. Surely the training method for most people (I think/hope!) is to try to show them what we WANT them to do and then reward it.
Yes of course there are going to be times when riding/working from the ground when they need correcting, but I agree with Greybadger in that the majority of the training is done with positive reinforcement: think of teaching lateral work. We don't ask then say 'no' when they don't do it, rather we ask and then when we get the smallest attempt at stepping across we will praise and then ask again. I know that's oversimplifying but it's just an example.

Re long-reining by the way, I much prefer it to lunging because you can do so much more with it than just going round in circles. Also, when I do put them on a circle with the long-reins, it's much easier to change rein so you can do more frequent changes of direction as well as being able to work in straight lines/laterally. Gets my vote any day


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## TarrSteps (5 April 2010)

Jul said:



			Really well put example of horse-to-horse training there, BUT I don't think it applies in the same way to ridden/long-lining. That would imply that we wait for them to make a mistake and then correct it. Surely the training method for most people (I think/hope!) is to try to show them what we WANT them to do and then reward it.
Yes of course there are going to be times when riding/working from the ground when they need correcting, but I agree with Greybadger in that the majority of the training is done with positive reinforcement: think of teaching lateral work. We don't ask then say 'no' when they don't do it, rather we ask and then when we get the smallest attempt at stepping across we will praise and then ask again. I know that's oversimplifying but it's just an example.

Re long-reining by the way, I much prefer it to lunging because you can do so much more with it than just going round in circles. Also, when I do put them on a circle with the long-reins, it's much easier to change rein so you can do more frequent changes of direction as well as being able to work in straight lines/laterally. Gets my vote any day 

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We're wandering off topic but . . . 

How do you ask for lateral work, then?  A wholly "positive reinforcement" approach would be to wait until the horse takes a step sideways, then reward it.  If you put your leg on then the horse takes a step sideways, then you relax you leg, that's actually negative reinforcement as it's stopping the pressure of your leg that is the real signal the horse has provided the right response.  Praising afterwards is positive, true, (although debatable, as horses have to learn what human praise means and that they should seek it) but it's not the reason the horse moved in the first place.

People hate the word "negative" because of the connotations but all it really means is you do something that makes the horse uncomfortable until it gives you the desired response then you stop doing it.  Hopefully the negative reinforcement also makes it obvious to the horse which way it should go to make you stop - the least looked at aspect of training, if you ask me.  As they say, "Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult." Which is a mixture of both positive and negative reinforcements, all directed to the same end.


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## Jul (5 April 2010)

I totally see where you're coming from but I disagree. Personally I don't think a horse moving away from pressure comes under the 'negative reinforcement' banner, more that it is just responding to a signal. I wouldn't term pressure from the leg on their side as unpleasant enough to warrant it being negative reinforcement. 
Just different opinions there I think


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## TarrSteps (5 April 2010)

Now I'm just being pedantic . . 

The original point was about the use of the term "negative reinforcement" in the long reining article and the resulting opinion that horses (inferred as horses in the UK  ) should not be trained that way.  We're not talking negative as in "no" we're talking the theory of operant conditioning, a basis of many training programs.  At it's most basic, you pull - however gently - on the right rein, the horse turns right, you stop pulling when the horse has turned enough.  You're not hurting the horse (hopefully) or making him upset, you're simply using negative reinforcement.

http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/proj/nru/opcond.html

I do think this is, actually, something worth thinking about if one rides, because it so often gets confused with "punishment", which is not the same thing at all.  When that happens people either use the success of negative reinforcement to support the idea of punishment or throw the negative reinforcement baby out with the punishment bath water.   In fact all aids are negative reinforcement, however lightly applied.

Positive reinforcement is much trickier with horses because what they usually most want from us is to stop asking questions.   Or food.   Clicker training is wholly positive, although many trainers who promote it actually recommend using it as part of a larger system, also using negative reinforcement, to target and speed learning.


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