# Dumbfounded after osteo visit.



## Frenchmade (1 December 2015)

Hi people. Im a bit in shock really so I hope this makes sense. I had the vet out last week for a clearly sore back on my ex racer Tb (rising 7), and she diagnosed pain in the lumbar region but no lameness and referred me to the osteopath. He came this morning. 

He started by examining his scrotal area and found there was a mass which he thinks is the result of my chap being poorly castrated. He suggests the testicle was removed too low down, leaving the 'cord' present and the scarring resulting from the castration has formed a mass. He can feel a kind of stump. (He initially thought it was a testicle, but then after further exam he said no.) He says this is the reason why he didn't pass muster as a steeplechaser as he can't extend his hind legs behind him in jumping, is also the reason why he drags his right hind leg and trips over his own left foot frequently. According to him, there is little to be done as any operation would be extremely tricky, require a specialist, is rare and the prognosis is poor. He wants me to work him on the lunge with a really really short rein (head on chest sort of thing), which is supposed to help his abdominal muscles. And ride him anyway. 

Next step for me I suppose is to get the vet back to confirm this diagnosis with a scan or something.  

Still reeling from this. Anyone heard of anything like this before?


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## madlady (1 December 2015)

Sorry I've never heard anything like that.  Hopefully your vet will be able to shed some more light.


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## Frenchmade (1 December 2015)

madlady said:



			Sorry I've never heard anything like that.  Hopefully your vet will be able to shed some more light.
		
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Thankyou for replying and yes I hope so. I hope she'll tell me it's not true! Wishful thinking though.


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## madlady (1 December 2015)

I also don't see how lunging him with his head virtually strapped to his chest would do anything other than put pressure on other areas?  That bit really puzzled me - isn't it just going to make his whole frame tense?

Hope you get some sense out of your vet.


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## Frenchmade (1 December 2015)

I wonder are there any vets on here who might comment on how likely is this scenario?  Clutching at straws now.


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## Frenchmade (1 December 2015)

madlady said:



			I also don't see how lunging him with his head virtually strapped to his chest would do anything other than put pressure on other areas?  That bit really puzzled me - isn't it just going to make his whole frame tense?

Hope you get some sense out of your vet.
		
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Exactly what I thought of his advice. I work him long and low and he goes like that naturally on the lunge. Sometimes I think he's going to graze his nose! But no, that's not now I shouldd be doing it. head on chest apparently. Im as puzzled as you.


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## 9tails (1 December 2015)

What a strange place for an osteopath to start his investigations.


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## Girlracer (1 December 2015)

I've never heard of anything like that before, but doesn't mean it's not possible I suppose. However the advice to lunge with head on chest would make me doubt everything they have said, as I don't see how that will benefit your horse in any way.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 December 2015)

Quite a lot of issues on the lower spine and high hind limbs can be from a bad gelding.

Tightness and issues in that area can cause loads of problems and pain from the horse carrying themselves differently.


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## Frenchmade (1 December 2015)

On the vet's advice I have been lunging him daily with a bungee to lower his head forward and down. That's my interpretation of her advice which was simply to lunge him in 'elastic' to bring his head down. He is also on muscle relaxants prescribed by the vet for 10 days.  Yesgterday on the lunge, his walk was lovely. Overtracking by about 12". In trot he tracked up perfectly too. But, in trot he did trip himself up a couple of times and did little hops to try to canter from time to time and throwing his head up at the same time.


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## Frenchmade (1 December 2015)

Black Beastie said:



			Quite a lot of issues on the lower spine and high hind limbs can be from a bad gelding.

Tightness and issues in that area can cause loads of problems and pain from the horse carrying themselves differently.
		
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So continual pain? Surely if this is the case then he can't be ridden at all. I don't want to ride if it's causing pain.


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## Frenchmade (1 December 2015)

Girlracer said:



			I've never heard of anything like that before, but doesn't mean it's not possible I suppose. However the advice to lunge with head on chest would make me doubt everything they have said, as I don't see how that will benefit your horse in any way.
		
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I agree with you there. Shock giving way to scepticism now.


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## NiceNeverNaughty (1 December 2015)

get a different vet out


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## peaceandquiet1 (1 December 2015)

Is that not a veterinary matter, and not one for an osteopath? Also-cannot see how strapping the head to the chest will help-what an awful suggestion.....


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## Frenchmade (1 December 2015)

The vet was called out first for an obvious back issue, she did a somewhat cursory exam and referred me to this osteo. So clearly next step is to get the vet back out, which i said before.


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## NiceNeverNaughty (1 December 2015)

Frenchmade said:



			The vet was called out first for an obvious back issue, she did a somewhat cursory exam and referred me to this osteo. So clearly next step is to get the vet back out, which i said before.
		
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If I were you I would get a different vet, not the same one. Was the vet you used an equine vet?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 December 2015)

Frenchmade said:



			So continual pain? Surely if this is the case then he can't be ridden at all. I don't want to ride if it's causing pain.
		
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I read an article on it, will have to find it, to do with scar tissue and how the body (horse or human) adapts to it. Humans do it as well, he won't think of it as continual pain as its been so long. His body will have changed but that in itself may have caused the issues.

The article mentioned regular massage and explained what to do,  I will try and find it, I had regular massage treatments to fix my surgery scar tissue and it worked.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 December 2015)

This is a similar article but not the one I read.

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Gelding-Scar-And-Its-Drag-Effect&id=7031363

I'm lucky in that my geldings sheath and scar is pliable, loose and relaxed all the way up, I have checked a few friends horses sheath to get a difference in feel and they do all feel very different, one was very tight and he made the ' sheath noise' in all gaits. Although some say this is a tightness and some say it's being relaxed and air getting in.


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## Goldenstar (1 December 2015)

Get an experienced equine vet on the job .
The thing with osteos is it's about impossible to work out wether your dealing with a dangerous crank or a insightful expert until your well down the road .


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## Frenchmade (1 December 2015)

NeverEver said:



			If I were you I would get a different vet, not the same one. Was the vet you used an equine vet?
		
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Yes a very reputable equine vet. I rang her a short while ago to explain what the osteo had found but unfortunately didn't understand her response.  Then we got mysteriously cut off, just after I said I didn't understand... She's French and doesn't speak English.  I've asked here on the english forums for the name of an English speaking vet.   If I am to contact my insurance company about this, then what I need is confirmation from a vet and a report with corroboration by scan or whatever they need. I also want this diagnosis confirming anyway.  There are other equine vets here, but I've seen one of them and he's totally useless.  Very frustrating. Would really like just to have a chat with a vet who can give me some idea of how likely this is, what to do about it, operate or not.. etc.  One needs to be aware that in this part of France, the osteo is regarded as the first port of call, not the vet. People here have total faith in human and equine osteopaths. It's not like the UK where it's considered 'alternative', people here really believe they are the bees knees.  I insisted in getting the vet first, but she just referred me to the osteo. She was quite prepared to defer her opinion until after I had seen the osteo. I mentioned kissing spines and she said wait until he's seen the osteo... But I do need a vet to confirm or otherwise, the diagnosis. I'll need that anyway to see what my insurance will cover.


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## Frenchmade (1 December 2015)

Black Beastie said:



			This is a similar article but not the one I read.

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Gelding-Scar-And-Its-Drag-Effect&id=7031363

I'm lucky in that my geldings sheath and scar is pliable, loose and relaxed all the way up, I have checked a few friends horses sheath to get a difference in feel and they do all feel very different, one was very tight and he made the ' sheath noise' in all gaits. Although some say this is a tightness and some say it's being relaxed and air getting in.
		
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Really interesting article, thank you. How can one massage internal scarring though, especially in that area? The problem is internal, not on the skin. Not sure how that would work? More questions!


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## Frenchmade (1 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Get an experienced equine vet on the job .
The thing with osteos is it's about impossible to work out wether your dealing with a dangerous crank or a insightful expert until your well down the road .
		
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Agreed. Easier said than done, over here.


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## peaceandquiet1 (1 December 2015)

Sorry, didn't realise you are not in UK.


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## Frenchmade (1 December 2015)

horsemadmum1 said:



			Sorry, didn't realise you are not in UK.
		
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that's ok. Needed to vent and exchange thoughts and ideas otherwise was going to explode! Location irrelevant!


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 December 2015)

Frenchmade said:



			Really interesting article, thank you. How can one massage internal scarring though, especially in that area? The problem is internal, not on the skin. Not sure how that would work? More questions!
		
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The article (I cannot find incidentally) explained it all but I suppose it would depend how far the scarring goes internally


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## Frenchmade (1 December 2015)

Black Beastie said:



			The article (I cannot find incidentally) explained it all but I suppose it would depend how far the scarring goes internally 

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Well thanks for the suggestion. I'll have a google and see what I can find too.


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## Bryndu (1 December 2015)

Hi,
All I can add is that when my vet came out to feel an odd lump on a horse she said It feels like...' and then slapped her wrist and said' my vet teacher would have said you can't see with your hands....scan it '! And bless her she did....and it turned out to be a benign cyst...get the vet out to scan it then you will know what you are dealing with....me thinks osteo didn't have a clue and tried to give you an answer just because there was a fee involved....but them I am a sceptic 
Best of luck
Bryndu


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## NZJenny (2 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Get an experienced equine vet on the job .
The thing with osteos is it's about impossible to work out wether your dealing with a dangerous crank or a insightful expert until your well down the road .
		
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This.

In New Zealand a vet would never refer you to an osteo as there is no recognised qualification for that here.  Is there one in the UK?


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## dollyanna (2 December 2015)

NZJenny said:



			This.

In New Zealand a vet would never refer you to an osteo as there is no recognised qualification for that here.  Is there one in the UK?
		
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There most certainly is for humans but sadly this doesn't follow on for animals - it is a protected title (so an osteopath has to have qualified and be registered) but there is no legal requirement for a level of training to practice with animals in the UK ie any osteopath can go and treat animals without a minimum legal training, although most will have done some kind of training to transfer to horses.

The OP is in France however, which is much less regulated if I remember correctly - or it has changed since I was at college.


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## Frenchmade (2 December 2015)

Yes Im in France dollyanna. I really don't know what regulation there is here for equine osteos. I do know that the French as a whole regard osteopaths as totally reliable and knowledgeable and they use them far far more than we ever would in the UK. For example, when I had a fall from my horse I was inundated with people telling me to go to the osteo. If I went anywhere, it would have been for an xray first! It was just bruising. Maybe I should have listened about my horse and gone straight to the osteo, then I would have saved myself 90 euros on the vet!!  People here also believe that if you get cold, you will get 'a cold' so no one does anything if it rains.  Primitive. 

I would really like to know more about this condition so if anyone knows of information relating to problems with the 'cord' remaining after castration and associated conditions, anything really, please let me know.  If there is a vet I could ring to chat about it that would be even better.  I can't find anything myself yet and it's frustrating to be so much in the dark.  Is my horse in pain? Will work improve it? How much work can he do? Could he be medicated? How rare is it? How risky is the op? Is it worth doing the op? Better prognosis?  Is it a really specialised operation? 

I haven't contacted my insurance company yet because I need more info and confirmation from a vet. I bet they won't pay though because it's really a pre existing condition, clearly there before I bought him. So another question is, is it worth paying out several thousand euros for this operation? Should I semi retire him? Didn't sleep a wink last night.  

Thanks for all the replies too.


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## applecart14 (2 December 2015)

Frenchmade said:



			Hi people. Im a bit in shock really so I hope this makes sense. I had the vet out last week for a clearly sore back on my ex racer Tb (rising 7), and she diagnosed pain in the lumbar region but no lameness and referred me to the osteopath. He came this morning. 

He started by examining his scrotal area and found there was a mass which he thinks is the result of my chap being poorly castrated. He suggests the testicle was removed too low down, leaving the 'cord' present and the scarring resulting from the castration has formed a mass. He can feel a kind of stump. (He initially thought it was a testicle, but then after further exam he said no.) He says this is the reason why he didn't pass muster as a steeplechaser as he can't extend his hind legs behind him in jumping, is also the reason why he drags his right hind leg and trips over his own left foot frequently. According to him, there is little to be done as any operation would be extremely tricky, require a specialist, is rare and the prognosis is poor. He wants me to work him on the lunge with a really really short rein (head on chest sort of thing), which is supposed to help his abdominal muscles. And ride him anyway. 

Next step for me I suppose is to get the vet back to confirm this diagnosis with a scan or something.  

Still reeling from this. Anyone heard of anything like this before?
		
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I have heard that 'beans' can cause problems for geldings and make them appear lame due to discomfort from that area, so I can see how what your osteopath has described as a mass would impact on your horses way of going. I am sure the vet will be able to get this clarified for you.

For those that have never heard of beans they are a build up of smegma and other material (shavings, dirt, dust etc) that form in the horses sheath next to its uretha.  My vet took my horses bean out - it was huge, the size of a 2p piece and about 4mm depth.  He said it was the biggest he had ever seen! It must have been very uncomfortable for him. I think he may have another one now, as he has started  making the 'whoosing' noise normally associated with gunk in that area - I noticed it last night when I lunged him.


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## Nakipa (2 December 2015)

Whereabouts in france are you?  I can recommend a brilliant vet if you are in the Southwest.


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## Frenchmade (2 December 2015)

Nakipa said:



			Whereabouts in france are you?  I can recommend a brilliant vet if you are in the Southwest.
		
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Thanks Nakipa but Im in the south east. The Var.  But I feel I've made some progress today.  I told the equestrian centre owner (French)( where I keep my horse), that I rang the vet but couldn't understand her and she volunteered to call the vet, in my presence, and ask lots of relevant questions for me, then try and put it into words I could understand. Very kind of her.  So, the end result is, the vet is coming out to palpate my horse and see what the situation is, then discuss it with me in person.  There is a highly thought of vet/equine clinic in Aix en Provence, not too far away, which my vet recommends as being excellent if surgery is the preferred option.  So now we're getting somewhere. 

The vet did however say, when I asked her to come out and see him, that it's not a matter of urgency.  Well yes, I do realise that, but once you know your horse has something like this, you want to get it sorted ASAP!  As if Im just going to forget about it for a few months! Strange people!Anyway, she's coming in about a week to 10 days. 

Might sleep better tonight.


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## Frenchmade (2 December 2015)

applecart14 said:



			I have heard that 'beans' can cause problems for geldings and make them appear lame due to discomfort from that area, so I can see how what your osteopath has described as a mass would impact on your horses way of going. I am sure the vet will be able to get this clarified for you.

For those that have never heard of beans they are a build up of smegma and other material (shavings, dirt, dust etc) that form in the horses sheath next to its uretha.  My vet took my horses bean out - it was huge, the size of a 2p piece and about 4mm depth.  He said it was the biggest he had ever seen! It must have been very uncomfortable for him. I think he may have another one now, as he has started  making the 'whoosing' noise normally associated with gunk in that area - I noticed it last night when I lunged him.
		
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Hi yes I've heard of this before but never heard of anyone having it done. A previous gelding of mine always made that noise when his sheath needed a good clean. May mention it to the vet while she's 'down there'.


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## Frenchmade (2 December 2015)

Bryndu said:



			Hi,
All I can add is that when my vet came out to feel an odd lump on a horse she said It feels like...' and then slapped her wrist and said' my vet teacher would have said you can't see with your hands....scan it '! And bless her she did....and it turned out to be a benign cyst...get the vet out to scan it then you will know what you are dealing with....me thinks osteo didn't have a clue and tried to give you an answer just because there was a fee involved....but them I am a sceptic 
Best of luck
Bryndu
		
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Apparently a scan won't provide any answers, according to the conversation with the vet today. She's going to palpate. So we'll see.


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## Frenchmade (8 December 2015)

The vet hasn't been yet, she said either today or Thursday so still in a state of anxiety here. While waiting, I've been reading up on cervical arthritis. The symptoms seem to be the same. Tripping, lack of hind engagement, dragging feet, intermittent problems, no sign of lameness.  What they do say is absolutely NO chiropractic treatment! So if it's this causing the problem, then getting osteo treatment was totally the wrong thing to do.  I lunged him today and he was much much worse.  I used the bungee, very loosely, so he could still lift his head, and he tripped up at least 10 times in 20 minutes and at one point both hind legs seemed to buckle.  I stopped working him.  Im beginning to believe this is not a castration issue at all. If it were, it wouldn't be suddenly much worse.  At the very least, this needs to be examined and eliminated before anyone even thinks of operating on him for the botched castration. What is the method used for diagnosing arthritis? Xray? Is it a hospital job to xray the neck/back? I am getting armed for the vet's visit so any help much appreciated. Thanks for reading. Mince pie?


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## planete (8 December 2015)

I have just looked up the equine vet. clinic in Aix.  Is it the one at La Trevaresse?  They seem to go to clients for pre purchase vettings.  Can you find out if somebody would come out to your horse if you requested a second opinion?  Your vet may feel a bit miffed when you ask for a second opinion but she does not seem to have a clue.


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## Frenchmade (8 December 2015)

planete said:



			I have just looked up the equine vet. clinic in Aix.  Is it the one at La Trevaresse?  They seem to go to clients for pre purchase vettings.  Can you find out if somebody would come out to your horse if you requested a second opinion?  Your vet may feel a bit miffed when you ask for a second opinion but she does not seem to have a clue.
		
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I have no experience of the vet clinic in Aix so I don't know if that's the one. Perhaps I should be looking them up too. I will!  I have it in mind that I will get a second opinion. I am going to see what this current vet has to say at the next visit, which looks like it will be on Thursday. I am going to put her through the mill with questions which I've made a list of. If she doesn't come up to scratch then I have already thought about ringing the clinic and asking if they can either come out, or I take him to them. One way or another I will get someone competent to see him.  Your idea of asking in advance is a good one.  I will ask the YO tomorrow for the telephone number of the clinic and ring them myself.  Trouble is, my current vet is regarded as the best in the region.    That's not saying much.


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## Frenchmade (8 December 2015)

Yes, Planete, that's the clinic I presume because I was told the vet's name was Dr Martin. He's there. So, after the vets visit I will give him a ring.  He's trained in the USA so will be fluent in English.  Useful!!


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## Frenchmade (8 December 2015)

No, I'll ring tomorrow, before the vet visits. Armed!


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## foxy1 (9 December 2015)

My youngster had a cyst on his castration site, it felt a bit like a testicle but when scanned the vet could see it wasn't! It was easily surgically removed and has caused him no issues.


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## Mr Clovis (9 December 2015)

Sounds like funiculitis. I have a gelding with this problem, he responded well to a course of antibiotics and , touch wood, he has been fine since so I didn't go ahead with surgery. I don't know if it would cause the uncoordination you discribe. Mine chap was stiff in his hinds and showed mild colicky symptoms.


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## Booboos (9 December 2015)

I'm in France as well and I don't want to vet bash but my experience is that local vets have a lot less knowledge of horses than you would expect in the UK. If I were you I would take him straight to the specialist clinic. They are much more likely to figure out what is happening and in the long run it will save you money, time and heartache.

On the osteo question, many vets here are osteopaths for which they do postgraduate training but that doesn't stop anyone else from calling themselves an osteo. There are no physios for horses as there are in the UK but osteos seem to work on muscles in ways similar to UK physios.


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## dilbert (9 December 2015)

My vet is also an osteo and he has talked about similar things when I have had him out to my gelding., think he quoted something like 1 in 3 geldings could have hind end issues as a result of scarring.


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## Golden_Match_II (9 December 2015)

Hi I'm a vet student (no way near a vet yet so can't really advise.)

If it is a form of arthritis in the spine, your vet should be able to get some radiographs using the portable machine. For the more "fleshy" parts of the spine the images won't be perfect, but as a starting point they can probably do it themselves (I've seen mine do it lots of times.)

Sounds very confusing for you, most people don't understand the veterinary terminology in their mother tongue let alone a second language! It sounds like the vet certainly isn't making your life any easier so I'm really sorry to hear it.


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## applecart14 (10 December 2015)

Sounds like Mr Clover may have hit the nail on the head

Page 433 of the link below refers to Funiculitis - here is an extract 

Funiculitis

"Funiculitis refers to inflammation of the spermatic cord .It is usually a septic process developing as an extension of a scrotal infection or from a contaminated emasculator or ligature. Failure to remove the tunica vaginalis and external c remaster muscle during open castrations
predisposes horses to septic funiculitis. Signs vary with pyrexia, lameness, inguinal and scrotal swelling and chronic discharge often noted.  These may not develop for months or years after castration."

Here is the link: http://www.vetcases.ugent.be/paard3.pdf


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## Frenchmade (10 December 2015)

Just catching up with the latest comments, for which Thank you all.  Vet didn't come Tuesday so hopefully will arrive today.  In the meantime a friend suggested I ring a specialist equine vet teaching hospital in the UK, which I did this morning.  I spoke to one of their specialists. He was really helpful and it was extremely kind to give me so much of his time to discuss this.  He is of the opinion that the chances of it being anything to do with the castration are 'remote'.  He's also suggested what I should be looking for in terms of a veterinary examination (which hasn't been done properly yet) which will indicate whether we're dealing with something mechanical or something painful somewhere.  Plus a trial of bute to determine which it is. Basically, a full lameness workup is required.   Hurray, sense at last. We'll see how the vet today stacks up against his info on how he would proceed in this situation. If she doesn't, then Im off to the clinic in Aix straight away.


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## Frenchmade (10 December 2015)

applecart14 said:



			Sounds like Mr Clover may have hit the nail on the head

Page 433 of the link below refers to Funiculitis - here is an extract 

Funiculitis

"Funiculitis refers to inflammation of the spermatic cord .It is usually a septic process developing as an extension of a scrotal infection or from a contaminated emasculator or ligature. Failure to remove the tunica vaginalis and external c remaster muscle during open castrations
predisposes horses to septic funiculitis. Signs vary with pyrexia, lameness, inguinal and scrotal swelling and chronic discharge often noted.  These may not develop for months or years after castration."

Here is the link: http://www.vetcases.ugent.be/paard3.pdf

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Thanks for this.  Something to ask about. But there's no pyrexia (based on the several times during the last year that the vet has seen him for other things), no discharge, no swelling, he not overly sensitive in that area, and he doesn't appear lame. ie when I ride I detect no lameness at all, nothing uneven.. In some ways I really do hope it is this because it looks more easily treated and it would be good to have something definite!


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## Frenchmade (10 December 2015)

Golden_Match_II said:



			Hi I'm a vet student (no way near a vet yet so can't really advise.)

If it is a form of arthritis in the spine, your vet should be able to get some radiographs using the portable machine. For the more "fleshy" parts of the spine the images won't be perfect, but as a starting point they can probably do it themselves (I've seen mine do it lots of times.)

Sounds very confusing for you, most people don't understand the veterinary terminology in their mother tongue let alone a second language! It sounds like the vet certainly isn't making your life any easier so I'm really sorry to hear it.
		
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Thank you for your reply.  Good and very useful to know that xrays might be able to be done in situ if necessary. I know she has a portable machine because she's done foot/fetlock xrays on him before when he injured himself in the field.


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## Frenchmade (10 December 2015)

Booboos said:



			I'm in France as well and I don't want to vet bash but my experience is that local vets have a lot less knowledge of horses than you would expect in the UK. If I were you I would take him straight to the specialist clinic. They are much more likely to figure out what is happening and in the long run it will save you money, time and heartache.

On the osteo question, many vets here are osteopaths for which they do postgraduate training but that doesn't stop anyone else from calling themselves an osteo. There are no physios for horses as there are in the UK but osteos seem to work on muscles in ways similar to UK physios.
		
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In general  I feel a certain amount of dismay at the level of knowledge in general here regarding horses and riding.  The specialist I spoke to this morning (in the UK) said it was a pity that I was in the south as most of the good facilities and people tend to be in the north.  He shall remain nameless so I don't get him into trouble!! Small world.


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## Frenchmade (10 December 2015)

Mr Clovis said:



			Sounds like funiculitis. I have a gelding with this problem, he responded well to a course of antibiotics and , touch wood, he has been fine since so I didn't go ahead with surgery. I don't know if it would cause the uncoordination you discribe. Mine chap was stiff in his hinds and showed mild colicky symptoms.
		
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Glad your chap has come right Mr Clovis.  Did you notice the symptoms over a long period or did it come on fairly quickly? Mine doesn't seem to fit the symptoms very well.  He's OK one day but not the next, full of energy though! Although he does sometimes seem stiff to start (seen on the lunge) but loosens up totally after cantering for a bit. Hmmmm such a puzzle.


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## Frenchmade (10 December 2015)

Oh great. Just blo**y great.  Just found out that the vet isn't coming now until Monday. Had to text to get this info too. No one bothered to let me know. Fuming!!!  I know Im impatient to find out what this is, but really!!


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## applecart14 (10 December 2015)

Frenchmade said:



			Thank you for your reply.  Good and very useful to know that xrays might be able to be done in situ if necessary. I know she has a portable machine because she's done foot/fetlock xrays on him before when he injured himself in the field.
		
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Just be warned that because a horse may have changes in its spine, or other areas of its body it doesn't necessarily mean that this is where any pain is eminating from.  I always think xrays are best followed up with nerve blocking.  

On the other side of the coin... my friend who is a physio and works alongside a vet has has some curious cases recently where horses have appeared lame due to spavin, xrays have pinpointed nothing of any significance and yet, upon nerve blocks to the hock joint the pain has been eradicated and the horse gone sound.  That's because sometimes not everything shows on an xray, some cartilage damage won't show, neither will bruising of the bone, yet it will still be painful.


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## Mr Clovis (10 December 2015)

Gosh I thought Spanish vets were unreliable! Having waited all day to be told that they aren't coming after all, I know how fustrating it is. The symptoms came on quite quickly, I thought he'd strained himself until I did a more thorough examination.  My vet, who is Spanish, said that he would have had lesions since his castration but that an infection in the stump was what caused the symptoms that I noticed.  The horse has always tended to be a bit tense in his back and inclined to buck, but I had never thought to examine the castration scar before. The infection cleared up quickly and I now warm him up on the lunge before riding which definately helps. 
I hope you get to the bottom of the problem with your boy.


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## Booboos (10 December 2015)

There is a decent and well equipped vet practice just north of Toulouse but I think you are too far away from us.

From what you describe I'd expect a lameness work up and neuro exam, the results of which would help pinpoint an area for further investigation. I've a horse examined for arthritic changes by ultrasound on the neck and x-Rays on the back, although it was a few years ago now and I may be misremembering.


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## Frenchmade (10 December 2015)

Booboos said:



			There is a decent and well equipped vet practice just north of Toulouse but I think you are too far away from us.

From what you describe I'd expect a lameness work up and neuro exam, the results of which would help pinpoint an area for further investigation. I've a horse examined for arthritic changes by ultrasound on the neck and x-Rays on the back, although it was a few years ago now and I may be misremembering.
		
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This, ie a full lameness work up with nerve blocks, is precisely what I was told by the UK chap I rang this morning (very eminent equine teaching practice) so I know how to proceed when finally (!) the vet arrives.  First though he suggested I do a 10 day trial on a good dose of bute, then 10 days off bute, then another 10 days on. This will give a very good idea of whether the problem is pain related or a mechanical one and so indicate what the next steps should be. 

Im in the Var, quite a long way from Toulouse unfortunately!  I've looked up the practice in Aix and it looks good. They'll all Amercan or Canadian trained French vets and have excellent equipment and facilities. It's about an hour and a half away. 

My current vet is a specialist equine vet and covers the whole of the Var and possibly the Cote d'Azur in part as well.  They're thin on the ground. Finding another 'local' horse vet is a non starter. If she doesn't come up to scratch I'll have to go to Aix.


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## Frenchmade (10 December 2015)

applecart14 said:



			Just be warned that because a horse may have changes in its spine, or other areas of its body it doesn't necessarily mean that this is where any pain is eminating from.  I always think xrays are best followed up with nerve blocking.  

On the other side of the coin... my friend who is a physio and works alongside a vet has has some curious cases recently where horses have appeared lame due to spavin, xrays have pinpointed nothing of any significance and yet, upon nerve blocks to the hock joint the pain has been eradicated and the horse gone sound.  That's because sometimes not everything shows on an xray, some cartilage damage won't show, neither will bruising of the bone, yet it will still be painful.
		
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A methodical step by step approach is needed, certainly.  I totally agree you need to have both xrays and nerve blocks. Will have to rob a bank.    Thank you.


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## Nakipa (10 December 2015)

This is a bit of a sweeping statement but I don't trust vets here when they say they are specialist equine vets.  There is one very close to us who advertises as a specialist and I can tell you my dog has more equine veterinary knowledge than he does.  I have had real issues with french vets and even taking one of mine to the specialist horsepital near Bordeaux where they just wouldn't listen to me and insisted that he had foot problems.  He didn't have anything wrong with his feet but I spent thousands on treatment with them before they finally stopped injecting various parts of his lower leg.
There are some brilliant vets here but they are like rocking horse pooh and very hard to find.

Good luck.


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## wench (10 December 2015)

Can you just take him to the specialty vets and not bother with local ones? If they are American trained hopefully they will be a bit better than the normal French type vets


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## Frenchmade (11 December 2015)

wench said:



			Can you just take him to the specialty vets and not bother with local ones? If they are American trained hopefully they will be a bit better than the normal French type vets
		
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It's a little complicated. I keep my horse at an equestrian centre who has a few full liveries. They have their own specialist equine vet who treats all their horses routinely but if there's something eg hospitalisation/surgery/other stuff needed then they go to Aix to the clinic there.  Their vet is considered the best here.  I've seen two of the other vets when I rode at other livery yards an equestrian centres.  They were rubbish!  It won't go down too well if I go over the centre's vet before she's had a chance to look at the horse again in light of this new information (castration thing) and the fact that Im a bit more clued up than I was last time she saw him.  I would dearly love to say get lost, Im going to Aix.  But after that I doubt I would have a vet I could call for anything else.  Aix is an hour and a half away and I don't have my own transport.  The centre owner has a massive ego and you have to tread carefully.  They are not used to owners who know anything at all about their horses. They like to take full charge and say that is their job. He already chucked out an American livery who went head to head with him on just about every aspect of their care of her horse. It's another world down here.  Like Napika says above, ignorance is rampant and so is arrogance.


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## Frenchmade (11 December 2015)

Nakipa said:



			This is a bit of a sweeping statement but I don't trust vets here when they say they are specialist equine vets.  There is one very close to us who advertises as a specialist and I can tell you my dog has more equine veterinary knowledge than he does.  I have had real issues with french vets and even taking one of mine to the specialist horsepital near Bordeaux where they just wouldn't listen to me and insisted that he had foot problems.  He didn't have anything wrong with his feet but I spent thousands on treatment with them before they finally stopped injecting various parts of his lower leg.
There are some brilliant vets here but they are like rocking horse pooh and very hard to find.

Good luck.
		
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True!


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## Frenchmade (11 December 2015)

Following on from my last post about the equestrian centre, I spoke to the owner this morning and told him I had rung a specialist veterinary centre in the UK to discuss the issue.  He kept interrupting, shaking his head, but I kept on talking, he looked more and more cross and finally just said 'Caroline has to see, she's coming on Monday, we'll wait for her'.  So there you are, not interested in hearing what anyone else has to say. If I have to leave this yard, there is NOWHERE else to go.


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## Bryndu (11 December 2015)

Frenchmade said:



			Following on from my last post about the equestrian centre, I spoke to the owner this morning and told him I had rung a specialist veterinary centre in the UK to discuss the issue.  He kept interrupting, shaking his head, but I kept on talking, he looked more and more cross and finally just said 'Caroline has to see, she's coming on Monday, we'll wait for her'.  So there you are, not interested in hearing what anyone else has to say. If I have to leave this yard, there is NOWHERE else to go.
		
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Really sorry to hear this 
You really seem to be between a rock and a hard place 
I cannot offer any advice.....just support.
Best of luck

Bryndu


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## onlytheponely (11 December 2015)

I am so frustrated for you, this is a horrid situation for you and your poor horse.

There are some very good equine vets here in France but they are so difficult to find. I consider myself incredibly lucky as I have a lovely small local practice with 2 very good equine vets. I also have an equine clinic with full facilities 3 hours away. It took me 3 years to work my way through all the rubbish and frankly dangerous vets and don't even get me started on the poor standard of some of the farriers.

I really hope that you can some sort of proper diagnosis or even a referral very soon. If you were in Brittany I could help :-(


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## Booboos (11 December 2015)

One thing I have found works is to stick with one vet, again and again, until they get to know you...then they are more willing to listen to you! Not ideal, but needs must!


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## Frenchmade (12 December 2015)

Thank for the lovely messages it's very much appreciated. I hope on Monday I'll have something better to report. Thanks again.


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## mayangold (15 December 2015)

any news??


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## Frenchmade (15 December 2015)

mayangold said:



			any news??
		
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Only that the vet didn't come yesterday. !!!!!!!!!  Apparently she rang the stables owner and suggested coming at 8.30 at night.  He said no, so we're back to waiting to see what time she turns up today. Im losing the will to live.


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## Frenchmade (15 December 2015)

The vet came today!!! Hurray!  She had a quick feel around and dismissed the diagnosis of the osteopath. No surprise there after what I've learned this week.  Long story short, she did a proper examination this time, on the lunge and working in a straight line, with and without tack, and then agreed with me that there is a problem and proceeded to x-ray his hocks, stifle, and all along his back. Phew. She redeemed herself this time. I talked it over with her at length about what he's been like over the last two years. So now I have to wait until she sends the results of the x-rays. I mentioned kissing spines when she came out the first time, but she said unlikely because his pain was in the lumbar region. That puzzled me a bit.  But now she is thinking that this is the likely problem. Cue googling/searching forum for kissing spines treatment/experiences.  Relieved to be getting somewhere but deep down anxious that this won't have a good ending.


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## SpringArising (15 December 2015)

Glad you're finally getting somewhere. I felt stressed just reading your posts! I must say I really don't envy you. I remember the battle of trying to treat my RAO horse and trying to get everyone in France to understand what it is.

FWIW if you're ever desperate, there's an excellent vet practice who deal with horses in Castelnaudary.


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## Booboos (15 December 2015)

Early days yet but if it is KS and he needs an operation they do the new style op that has a much shorter box rest recovery in Paris. Just something to keep in mind. Sorry it's worrying news but at least you're getting somewhere. 

SpringArising would you mind PMing me the name of the Castelnaudary clinic? It's only half an hour from me and it might come in handy.


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## Frenchmade (15 December 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Glad you're finally getting somewhere. I felt stressed just reading your posts! I must say I really don't envy you. I remember the battle of trying to treat my RAO horse and trying to get everyone in France to understand what it is.

FWIW if you're ever desperate, there's an excellent vet practice who deal with horses in Castelnaudary.
		
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Thanks for your reply SpringArising. It means a lot that there are people who understand what it's like here! Castelnaudary is quite some distance but you never know. Thanks, and I'll keep it in mind.


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## Frenchmade (15 December 2015)

Booboos said:



			Early days yet but if it is KS and he needs an operation they do the new style op that has a much shorter box rest recovery in Paris. Just something to keep in mind. Sorry it's worrying news but at least you're getting somewhere.
		
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Thanks Booboos. Is that the op where they cut the ligaments? Done originally at Liverpool? Read about something like that this evening. Much much better recovery and less chance of recurrence.  Or is it something different?  If you can, can you send me a link to something to look at?  Am googling  Lol!  Saving all these thoughts for the ex ray results. Trying to think positively. Will post when I get them.


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## Danny Vet (15 December 2015)

Very unlikely to be due to a badly performed castration- worst case scenario is that there is some testicle that has been left behind (which can be easily confirmed by a blood test) it would have no effect on his movement, back pain or lameness.  Get a second opinion on the back pain, often back pain is due to leg issues anyway, for example spavin in the hocks and cause or look like back pain.  I'm quite surprised a vet referred to an osteopath (I refer to physios all the time) because it is a strange thing for an osteopath to say, so I would question his understanding.  

As said before, part of testicle left behind can be confirmed by blood testing, but would not cause back pain.


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## Casey76 (16 December 2015)

Danny Vet said:



			I'm quite surprised a vet referred to an osteopath (I refer to physios all the time) because it is a strange thing for an osteopath to say, so I would question his understanding.  
.
		
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That's because we don't have equine physios in France - only osteopaths.  Many vets work closely with osteos.


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## ycbm (16 December 2015)

Frenchmade said:



			Thanks Booboos. Is that the op where they cut the ligaments? Done originally at Liverpool? Read about something like that this evening. Much much better recovery and less chance of recurrence.  Or is it something different?  If you can, can you send me a link to something to look at?  Am googling  Lol!  Saving all these thoughts for the ex ray results. Trying to think positively. Will post when I get them.
		
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How come you don't have the x ray results?  Are they so far behind that they are still using plates which have to be developed??

I do feel for you with your lack of decent horse vets.

By the by, I believe the ligament cutting operation was pioneered in Aberystwyth, by Cotts.


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## Casey76 (16 December 2015)

ycbm said:



			How come you don't have the x ray results?  Are they so far behind that they are still using plates which have to be developed??

.
		
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Not necessarily, but often mobile digital xray isn't very high resolution.  I know of one vet who you need to go to the clinic if you want xrays of anything but feet and legs.  I had to take my mare to a vet clinic as I wanted high quality xrays of her legs and feet.

The other vet I have used did need to take the plates back to the clinic.


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## Booboos (16 December 2015)

Frenchmade said:



			Thanks Booboos. Is that the op where they cut the ligaments? Done originally at Liverpool? Read about something like that this evening. Much much better recovery and less chance of recurrence.  Or is it something different?  If you can, can you send me a link to something to look at?  Am googling  Lol!  Saving all these thoughts for the ex ray results. Trying to think positively. Will post when I get them.
		
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I had a horse with suspected KS two years ago so it's a while since I looked into it. It is the ligament op, much quicker recovery and good results. I don't remember who first did it but Google should give you a quick answer. I did contact the vets in the UK via e-mail and they were great, they looked at the x-Rays and history and suggested that they did not think it was KS. At the time my vet at Toulouse said they were doing the ligament surgery in Paris and she was happy to either refer me or liaise with them and get someone down to Toulouse to do it with her, but in the end it was not KS.

If it looks like KS it would be worth getting the vet to send you copies of the x-Rays so you can discuss the case with other vets, get her to inject the back to see if there is improvement (which helps confirm the KS diagnosis) and look at the availability of the ligament op near you.


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## Frenchmade (16 December 2015)

As it's my birthday today, Im taking a day off from worrying about this and I will definitely reply to all the latest comments tomorrow!  As I've had far too much wine to be logical and sensible today, I will refrain from commenting, and continue to enjoy the World Cup Dressage Freestyle at Olympia. I hope you are all enjoying it and your horses too. I gave mine a big kiss this morning when I woke him up. XXX


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## Frenchmade (17 December 2015)

Well the vet emailed me the x rays this morning and her report.  She found nothing.  No abnormaities at all in hocks, stifle nor back. Her report states she believes the problem is 'deeper' than that and probably at the level of the vertebra, possibly the result of a fall or accident, and he's damaged his spine, but is more a discomfort from time to time, does not hurt him when he's at rest, and she couldn't see anything at all wrong with his 'locomotion' ie movement (so ruling out leg/feet issues) and for a TB it's quite good. I have a prescription for benamine, (anti inflammatory), coltramyl (muscle relaxant) and Equistro Flexadin UC II.(a collagen supplement)  Just seen the price of the latter  *faints.  She said to investigate further or confirm this  he would need to go to a specialist clinic and there's one in Normandy.  (hahah!!  Im near the south coast, that's on the north coast. )I am to lunge him, but without surcingle nor side reins and to build up his muscles which will help support his back and so relieve his pain.  She says this hypothesis is consistent with him deteriorating with work and also showing a worsening with the use of side reins. The treatments are for a month in total, but she wants news after 15 days of treatment. 

So I am not really any further forward in terms of a diagnosis.  But we have ruled out a couple of things. I am going to follow her instructions to the letter on this, and then see what happens.  She still hasn't ruled out a problem with the cervical spine. I think now, if the problem does not improve or comes back, then Im straight to the clinic in Aix for further investigations.


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## Booboos (17 December 2015)

I'm glad it's not KS but sorry you don't have an answer. If you need a scintigraphy it's worth asking around. I sent my horse to Barcelona, three hours away and half the price of Paris, seven hours away.


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## Frenchmade (17 December 2015)

Booboos said:



			I'm glad it's not KS but sorry you don't have an answer. If you need a scintigraphy it's worth asking around. I sent my horse to Barcelona, three hours away and half the price of Paris, seven hours away.
		
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Actually that's interesting. Barcelona is five hours away, whereas Normandy is 12. Cheaper for transport at the very least. Hadn't thought of going to Spain! 

What I do from now on will be dictated partly by cost.  My insurance is only for hospitalisation.


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## Mince Pie (17 December 2015)

Frenchmade said:



			Actually that's interesting. Barcelona is five hours away, whereas Normandy is 12. Cheaper for transport at the very least. Hadn't thought of going to Spain! 

What I do from now on will be dictated partly by cost.  My insurance is only for hospitalisation. 

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Oh balls  I hope it's not as serious as it sounds, is there any way of getting a thermal image done?

For anyone interested CPTrayes had a horse who had the ligament surgery, she did write a few threads about it.


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## EQUIDAE (18 December 2015)

Just thinking outside the box - could you get a thermal adaptor for your phone? The one for the iPhone is about £200. You could mail images to the specialist vet rather than travelling?


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## Goldenstar (18 December 2015)

My horse has just had surgery ,one week ago.
So I have been through all this recently .
The latest thinking is that the results from ligament snipping are not looking so good long term my horse has had the newest reshaping technique of six dorsal spines done standing .
He one week post op wound is neat there's no external disfigurement he's  rolling and lying down happily he's doing his carrots stretches happily and passive stretches rien backing etc.
He was three days in horsepital post OP and he's been  comfortable throughout I was very very worried about putting him through it but it's been much much easier on him than I was fearing .
The only issue we have had is a slight infection/ irritation of his sheath caused I think by the vigorous washing with hibiscrub they gave it before putting in the catheter ,the vets dealing with that its not a big problem .


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## Frenchmade (18 December 2015)

Mince Pie said:



			Oh balls  I hope it's not as serious as it sounds, is there any way of getting a thermal image done?

For anyone interested CPTrayes had a horse who had the ligament surgery, she did write a few threads about it.
		
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I did think it might be worth looking at thermal imaging, and I will look the posts you've mentioned. Thanks.  Whether I can get it done here is another question! I'll look into it.


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## Frenchmade (18 December 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Just thinking outside the box - could you get a thermal adaptor for your phone? The one for the iPhone is about £200. You could mail images to the specialist vet rather than travelling?
		
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Im afraid Im in the dark ages as far as phones go. I have an old Nokia, not a smartphone.  Would it work on a Samsung Android tablet I wonder?? Going to check.  Ii can see that being really useful, if not now, in the future!  Thanks for the suggestion.


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## Frenchmade (18 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			My horse has just had surgery ,one week ago.
So I have been through all this recently .
The latest thinking is that the results from ligament snipping are not looking so good long term my horse has had the newest reshaping technique of six dorsal spines done standing .
He one week post op wound is neat there's no external disfigurement he's  rolling and lying down happily he's doing his carrots stretches happily and passive stretches rien backing etc.
He was three days in horsepital post OP and he's been  comfortable throughout I was very very worried about putting him through it but it's been much much easier on him than I was fearing .
The only issue we have had is a slight infection/ irritation of his sheath caused I think by the vigorous washing with hibiscrub they gave it before putting in the catheter ,the vets dealing with that its not a big problem .
		
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It's wonderful to hear your horse is doing so well.  Unfortunately (?) my vet doesn't think it's kissing spines.  Almost wish it was, at least there would be a way forward.  Hope yours continues to recover well and gives you many years of pleasure.


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## Frenchmade (18 December 2015)

The vet has emailed me all the xrays so I can send them to another vet for a second opinion if I wish.  I have ordered all the meds she suggested, or at least most of them, and I'll give that a try.  I really don't hold out much hope that it will work on what ever is wrong but it def won't do any harm. 

One of the products is Equisto Flexadin UCll  which costs the princely sum of 112.00 euros online for 600g.  It contains MSM and collagen.  I think it's a French product.  Does anyone know if there is an English equivalent? Because I've found that usually things are cheaper in the UK.  I am in the UK over Christmas so could order it to be delivered and bring it back with me.  All in all, the meds are going to cost 250 euros!! EEk! For one month.  It's not a long term solution!


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## Zuzzie (19 December 2015)

Are you sure Equisto has collagen in it?  are you translating from french to english?  I have never heard of any equine product with collagen in it especially as it might be animal based and horses are veggies.  But I could be wrong!  Could it be chondroitin?  If so, two of the top joint supplements which vets recommend are Synequin and Cosequin.  

Synequin contains the following and costs £128 for 1000g:
Each 10g scoop contains:
Chondroitin Sulphate (95% pure) 2000mg
Glucosamine HCL (99% pure) 5000mg
N. Acetyl D. Glucosamine (99% pure) 500mg
Ascorbic Acid 570mg
Zinc Sulphate 360mg

Cosequin contains similar. Cost: £149 .99 for 700g.

So both of these are not cheap.  However, there are other products which are cheaper but probably not so effective.


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## be positive (19 December 2015)

Frenchmade said:



			The vet has emailed me all the xrays so I can send them to another vet for a second opinion if I wish.  I have ordered all the meds she suggested, or at least most of them, and I'll give that a try.  I really don't hold out much hope that it will work on what ever is wrong but it def won't do any harm. 

One of the products is Equisto Flexadin UCll  which costs the princely sum of 112.00 euros online for 600g.  It contains MSM and collagen.  I think it's a French product.  Does anyone know if there is an English equivalent? Because I've found that usually things are cheaper in the UK.  I am in the UK over Christmas so could order it to be delivered and bring it back with me.  All in all, the meds are going to cost 250 euros!! EEk! For one month.  It's not a long term solution!
		
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It is available over here but checking the prices it seems more expensive than in France.


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## Frenchmade (20 December 2015)

Zuzzie said:



			Are you sure Equisto has collagen in it?  are you translating from french to english?  I have never heard of any equine product with collagen in it especially as it might be animal based and horses are veggies.  But I could be wrong!  Could it be chondroitin?  If so, two of the top joint supplements which vets recommend are Synequin and Cosequin.  

Synequin contains the following and costs £128 for 1000g:
Each 10g scoop contains:
Chondroitin Sulphate (95% pure) 2000mg
Glucosamine HCL (99% pure) 5000mg
N. Acetyl D. Glucosamine (99% pure) 500mg
Ascorbic Acid 570mg
Zinc Sulphate 360mg

Cosequin contains similar. Cost: £149 .99 for 700g.

So both of these are not cheap.  However, there are other products which are cheaper but probably not so effective.
		
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Thanks for the comprehensive information.   Yes definitely collagen.  

http://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/traduction/collagène.html

Looks like it's a bargain here!! Good grief.


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## Frenchmade (20 December 2015)

be positive said:



			It is available over here but checking the prices it seems more expensive than in France.
		
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Thanks for checking.


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## Casey76 (20 December 2015)

Zuzzie said:



			Are you sure Equisto has collagen in it?  are you translating from french to english?  I have never heard of any equine product with collagen in it especially as it might be animal based and horses are veggies.  But I could be wrong!  Could it be chondroitin?  If so, two of the top joint supplements which vets recommend are Synequin and Cosequin.
		
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Chondroitin is derived from shark cartilage - it's not exactly veggie, and one of the reasons why I won't supplement with Cortaflex.


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## Frenchmade (20 December 2015)

Casey76 said:



			Chondroitin is derived from shark cartilage - it's not exactly veggie, and one of the reasons why I won't supplement with Cortaflex. 

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No chondroitin in it. Ingredients are 

Matières premières (main ingredients)
Lactose, méthane sulfonyle méthylique (MSM) 39,6%, chlorure de potassium (potassium), collagène non dénaturé de type II (UC II®) 0,8% (collagen)

Constituants analytiques
Cendres brutes 7,3%, (ash) cendres insolubles dans HCl 5,2%,(ash soluble) matières grasses brutes 0,3% (fats), humidité 6%, (water) sodium 1%,(salts) protéines brutes 0,4%,(protein) cellulose brute 0,4%

Additifs (par kilo)
Composés d&#8216;oligo-éléments  (trace elements/minerals): Manganèse s.f. chélate de manganèse d&#8216;acides aminés, hydraté (E5) 480 mg

Im not adverse to using collagen, even though it is not vegetable material.

However, I really do not see how it is going to help.  Given together with an anti inflamatory drug, plus a muscle relaxant, it will be impossible to tell which is working and which is a waste of time and money.  In addition, I fail to see how a supplement can 'cure' a possibly injured vertebrae. She didn't see him collapsing because he didn't do it when lunging for her.  Sods Law!! He tripped or collapsed (impossible to see exactly whats happening without slow motion video!) at least four times today. Im working him over trotting poles, then raising alternate ends to make slightly raised poles.  Apart from the tripping thing, he quickly got the hang of it and went really well.  I did notice that he is really really stiff when he first starts, and improves after around 15 to 20 mins. there's no real pattern to the tripping thing. 


Not sleeping again!!


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## Booboos (20 December 2015)

You might think this a bit of an odd question but do you have any yew trees where the horse is kept? I had a horse with collapsing, tripping episodes that turned into falling over that finally after endless exams turned out to be poisoning from yew trees causing muscle damage.


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## Frenchmade (21 December 2015)

Booboos said:



			You might think this a bit of an odd question but do you have any yew trees where the horse is kept? I had a horse with collapsing, tripping episodes that turned into falling over that finally after endless exams turned out to be poisoning from yew trees causing muscle damage.
		
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Oh goodness Booboos! Hope the poor horse recovered.  Mine is on a dirt paddock, with no overhanging trees at all. There's no grass here so he's on hay all year round.  So I very much doubt that it would be that. He did have this problem before I bought him though. 

Here's the video of him for sale at Ecuries Seconde Chance.   At the beginning of the video, when the rider is mounted and he starts to walk off, around step no. 13 he trips and slightly collapses behind.  He's had this since, well, before I bought him.  He stopped doing it so much for a while, but now it's come back and it's much more pronounced.  Plus the bad back, which may or may not be related but seems to be likely related.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWG-hOC7Kig


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## foxy1 (21 December 2015)

Was the neck xrayed too?


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## Booboos (21 December 2015)

That's exactly what my horse did at the beginning. Ridden you could really feel him doing it, but from the ground it was almost imperceptible. Gradually things got worse, he started tripping in front, collapsing behind, disunited and eventually falling over. Three years on he is well enough to be retired in the field but the last time we tried to bring him into work he started doing the back leg collapse after 6 months. Yew trees are extremely poisonous and would kill an animal that ingested their bark, my boy had been playing pulling off the bark of the tree so he had a milder, but still very debilitating, reaction.


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## crabbymare (21 December 2015)

I may have missed something in the thread but am wondering if the vets have run full blood tests on the horse? the problem with a horse being sore in the back is that if there is pain somewhere in the body it often appears to be coming from the sacroilliac or lumbar region as thats where the horse stores the pain tension if that makes sense. the reason I would be looking at bloods is to rule out things like kidney or muscle damage from possible toxins when he was young. then I would be saving money and getting to a good clinic in France or in Spain to have a full workup to see where the problem is coming from and where you can get xrays of the spine and top of the head say from eye level upwards to look for anything non symmetrical. there is something about the downwards transitions in the video you linked to that feels wrong around 1.20 is the first one and then at the end. nothing I can put my finger on and could just be a young horse who is a bit unbalanced. but then I am looking with the knowledge that there is a problem in the horse and may not have noticed if I did not know that. will be interesting to know what the cause is when the vets do find it


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## ycbm (21 December 2015)

foxy1 said:



			Was the neck xrayed too?
		
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This. The very first sign the only  wobbler I have known showed was that exact knuckle over of the hind foot. Months later, he was doing it much worse, and strained the tendon down the front of the leg , before he finally became ataxic very suddenly one day. Until that day, he passed the standard neurological tests - in fact he used to do a lovely rein back in competition!


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## Frenchmade (22 December 2015)

No he hasn't had either blood tests nor has he had his neck xrayed - yet!  At the last visit, the vet determined the problem was coming from his spine, but deemed it to be further back from the neck, towards the saddle area. She came to this conclusion because he went fine on the lunge until she put on a surcingle. After that he was uncoordinated, reluctant to canter, throwing head up in transitions and generally looking to be in discomfort. However, during the exam on the lunge he didn't trip up once! So she hasn't seen that. She said there was nothing wrong with his movement, ie. he's not showing any signs of lameness coming from his limbs. I've just read up on wobbler syndrome and it sounds very very much like that. I would like to get a video of him now on the lunge, to compare with the earlier one which is when he wasn't in much work and had fairly recently come out of training. When I first got him, he was typically very unbalanced and one sided, fairly inflexible. He's not bad now, quite flexible laterally, but still unequally muscled which points to a problem. 

The tripping (I like the term 'knuckle over of the hind foot') is much worse than in the video and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he strained himself. 


As he's an ex steeplechaser (who never ran incidentally - there might be a clue) I doubt he has been in contact with yew trees. He wouldn't have been turned out. He then spent a short time with Ecuries Seconde Chance. It's a professional outfit with a high turnover of race horses and I doubt they'd be unaware of the dangers. With me, he's never been near a tree!  If it were muscle damage, I would expect it to be a 'constant' problem, rather than intermittent and sudden? Whatever it is, there doesn't seem to be much future for him as a riding horse.


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## Frenchmade (22 December 2015)

The vet I spoke to in the UK suggested a course of bute to determine whether it was mechanical or not.  Would this would be worthwhile doing, given that the vet thinks there is a problem with his spine? I have a few days worth so could be done. Perhaps it would indicate how much pain he is in, if any. What do you all think?


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## ycbm (22 December 2015)

Frenchmade said:



			The vet I spoke to in the UK suggested a course of bute to determine whether it was mechanical or not.  Would this would be worthwhile doing, given that the vet thinks there is a problem with his spine? I have a few days worth so could be done. Perhaps it would indicate how much pain he is in, if any. What do you all think?
		
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It's a good suggestion and worth doing. It may not eliminate the back as an issue, my best vet tells me that bute is ineffective in dealing with nerve related back pain


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## Frenchmade (22 December 2015)

ycbm said:



			It's a good suggestion and worth doing. It may not eliminate the back as an issue, my best vet tells me that bute is ineffective in dealing with nerve related back pain
		
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Thanks for that. I'll do it when I get back from the UK, before I start on the meds prescribed by the vet. Im away for 10 days now so there's nothing to be done over Christmas.


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## Booboos (22 December 2015)

I really think you would save money in the long term if you took him to a specialist clinic now. They would start with a lameness work up, a neuro exam and go from there. They would be able to nerve block, x-Ray and ultrasound to at least rule out other causes and if nothing else pointed to a problem they would do a muscle biopsy which again would at least rule out other issues.

My horse's muscle problems were intermittent and he also injured himself in other areas, e.g. ligament injury in hind leg because of the tripping and other weird movements. What he has in exceptionally rare but we worked our way through a lot of other possibilities diagnostically to arrive there and I think you need to take this journey and see what comes up.


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## applecart14 (22 December 2015)

Sorry if I seem a bit vague but I thought when horses knuckled over at the fetlock it was because they had a tendon injury, something like PSD or some congenital deformity of the tendon which makes it contract in such a way that the horse appears to be knuckling over.  I think bute would rule out some of the theory's anyway.  I agree with Booboos about taking the horse to a specialist clinic.  He needs xray on his neck to rule out impingement of the neck vetebrae (wobblers/CVM) and the ultrasound would be able to see if there was a tendon injury on that hind.

You can't start to treat without a diganosis and even if its not what you want to hear at least its peace of mind for you because you will know what you are dealing with.

Good luck

PS There are loads of videos on YOUTUBE showing horses with wobblers. One such one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O16U9doxpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPFp0tUFwOc this one at trot.  Watch the foot placement.  The foot placement of the handler leaves a lot to be desired too.


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## ycbm (22 December 2015)

Just a thought, has he been tested for EHV, it can also cause similar symptoms, though probably unlikely. I hope you find a answer soon.


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## Booboos (22 December 2015)

Good point, mine had tests to rule EHV out as well. The results of the lameness test and the neuro exam will point in certain directions and you can start ruling possibilities out.


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## cundlegreen (22 December 2015)

Another thing which would be relatively simple and inexpensive to check, would be whether your horse has any mineral deficiencies. As he has been in training, and then only in a dirt field, its highly possible that he is deficient in some way. My homeopathic practice in the uk does a test on a urine sample, and can pin point what your horse might need in his diet. The hardest part can be getting the urine sample! The test is less than a tenner, and if there is a problem, they can make you up a custom made supplement for a lot less than you are paying for a load of chemicals in France. Certainly worth a thought. The discomfort after girthing up points rather to hind gut ulcers, which are hard to detect, so if you DO go the urine sample route, add a faeces sample as well to check for blood. I bought back a homebred horse with a history of napping and vices, almost certainly due to ulcers. He was apparently fine in his back until I pressed my finger tips vertically into his lumbar area, whereupon his stifles gave way, and he collapsed on the floor! With an alkaline diet, and a good chiropractor who helped release tension in the Psoas muscles, he has completely changed, and is now a sound happy horse. Sometimes it pays to think outside the box.


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## EQUIDAE (22 December 2015)

Just note - urine testing can only tell what is being fed in excess and excreted. It doesn't show deficiencies and it will give no indication about fat soluable vitamins and minerals. It's basically a scam... The only way to test for a deficiency is by serum analysis.


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## Christmas Crumpet (22 December 2015)

I may be way off the mark here but the stumble the horse does in the vid looks very much like my mare did when she had a slipping stifle. Did the vet look at the stifles?


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## Christmas Crumpet (23 December 2015)

carolineb said:



			I may be way off the mark here but the stumble the horse does in the vid looks very much like my mare did when she had a slipping stifle. Did the vet look at the stifles?
		
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Just to add to my comment about a slipping stifle - nothing would show up on X-ray as its to do with the ligaments.


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## Frenchmade (7 January 2016)

Hi again and thanks for the latest comments and opinions. To give a quick summary of where we are and to answer some of the recent posts - the vet xrayed his stifles and saw him working on the lunge for quite a good workout. She thought his movement (locomotion in French) was very good, especially for a TB.   We are within one week of finishing the medication the vet prescribed.  Yesterday I thought I saw some improvement. Certainly less head chucking in transitions, more fluid canter, more willing to canter and looking very relaxed and he didn't trip once. 

Since what he is taking is anti inflammatory, this leads me to think that pain has been relieved and he is feeling more comfortable. Today he was full of beans on the lunge and chose to have a good strong canter.    However, for the whole 5 mins he did this he was disunited, then changed to the wrong lead, then went disunited again.  Not once did he canter on the correct left leg.  Which tells me he's still not happy to use his left hind, even though he wasn't tripping as much. He tripped once today. 

I'll get to the end of the meds (one weeks time I think) and reintroduce the roller and side reins and see what happens.  And then take it from there.  I do appreciate that it would be a very good idea to get further tests and investigations. But time is not an issue and another couple of weeks won't make much difference. During this last week or so since I got back from the UK he's been enjoying himself doing groundwork over poles. We're up to five poles now, elevated every other end just 6".  I've been able to spread the distance to around 5 feet and he's stretching over them beautifully. He doesn't seem to have any difficulty lifting his hind legs and only occasionally clips a pole.  Im sure it's doing him the world of good so we'll continue this type of work, plus walking in hand up hills.  

Could it all be due to ulcers? He is a stressy sort of horse. Cribs, weaves... windsucks. spooky.. but doesn't do any of these in the paddock and he lives out 24/7. He has adlib hay. Low starch feed with chaff. Turmeric. Keeps condition.  Not sure whether ulcers would fit the pattern of dragging right hind and tripping with left, intermittently. 

One step at a time. *sighs


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## Frenchmade (7 January 2016)

carolineb said:



			Just to add to my comment about a slipping stifle - nothing would show up on X-ray as its to do with the ligaments.
		
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Can I ask did your mare consistently do this, or intermittently?  What was the outcome/treatment? Thanks


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## Frenchmade (7 January 2016)

Something else just occured to me.  I said yesterday he didn't trip up once during work.  Well, maybe because the day before yesterday he was shod and of course had his feet trimmed up quite a bit.  It was 6 weeks since the last shoeing.

In the beginning when I first tried to work out what was causing this, I asked the farrier to do his feet every 4 - 5 weeks to keep his feet short to stop him tripping up.  It did work, but rather masks the problem obviously.  In November when he was shod the farrier said he couldn't do him in 4 or even 5 weeks as there wasn't enough hoof growth to trim off. So we left it 6 weeks this time. 

Surely the difference of 1/4 inch shouldn't make that much difference to his ability to clear the ground. So, a red herring I think?

Another thing!!  When he was shod on Tuesday, the farrier managed to hot shoe him all round, front and hind, for the first time ever!! He couldn't believe how chilled he was.  Never managed more than a light heat and only in the front. So, to me that says 'no pain, Im happy'. 

This is bl**dy detective work!


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## Booboos (7 January 2016)

I would mention that to the vet, sounds very significant. I know they canMRI feet now for a better understanding of what's going on.


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## Christmas Crumpet (8 January 2016)

Frenchmade said:



			Can I ask did your mare consistently do this, or intermittently?  What was the outcome/treatment? Thanks 

Click to expand...

Hi, it was intermittently - some days she would do it once. Others a few times. She did have ulcers and hind gut issues and once they were sorted, she seemed to stop doing it. She is wth new owners now who havent commented on it so I assume she's barely doing it. She did also have a sore lumbar area which the Vet reckoned was partly down to the jerking of the stumbling and also from holding herself oddly due to tummy aches. She had horrible cow pats of poos as well. 

Pm me if you want to know anything else!!


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## Christmas Crumpet (8 January 2016)

carolineb said:



			Hi, it was intermittently - some days she would do it once. Others a few times. She did have ulcers and hind gut issues and once they were sorted, she seemed to stop doing it. She is wth new owners now who havent commented on it so I assume she's barely doing it. She did also have a sore lumbar area which the Vet reckoned was partly down to the jerking of the stumbling and also from holding herself oddly due to tummy aches. She had horrible cow pats of poos as well. 

Pm me if you want to know anything else!!
		
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Forgot to add that mare also dragged one or both of her hind feet but one very def worse than the other. Does sound very similar really!!


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## Bryndu (8 January 2016)

Hi,
I am responding to the video....and have not read all the posts recently regarding meds  etc...but just wanted to comment on something if that is ok?

I notice on the vid of him for sale that he steps quite high in all four feet in the walk, trot and canter.

I have recently taken on a companion pony who has exactly the same way of going as your horse... and my farrier visited for the first time today. He has never seen this pony before and although the pony had seen her previous farrier 6 weeks previously....my farrier remarked - with no prompting from me I hasten to add - 'does this pony pick it's feet up quite high? This because the toes are too long'.

Now this does not mean long as in slipper like...but long as in the hooves are too tall so that the pony has the feeling of walking on platforms...and therefore picks the feet up high and 'places' them on the floor...and often overbalancing/tripping.

After trimming the pony  - a regular trim  - the pony is unshod - the difference in the way of going in the pony was astonishing....she walked out to the field with a normal gait.

I wonder if this may be something worth looking at?

Wishing you all the best .
Bryndu


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## YasandCrystal (9 January 2016)

I am thinking ulcers looking at your horse. There is a very informative video showing how you can palpate your horse to check for ulcers. I have had 3 with ulcers, my WB had them as symptomatic of sacro illiac pain due to injury, my Dales had them through the stress of an accident and I suspect my mare through a stressful time after losing her foal. Each one presented differently. The WB was agressive and bucked and wouldn't track up. He was worse on the right rein. He was the only of the 3 I had scoped.
The Dales was extremely tense and tucked up ridden with no forward. He was super reactive through kicking with any presentation of the whip. He also wood chewed prolifically.
My mare was very sensitive to all the palpated girth and wither points. She was fence chewing and stressy. 
I treated all of mine with omeprazole via Abler. This made the treatment very affordable at around £120 for 6 weeks of treatment per horse. I followed each treatment up with a 6 week regime of green clay and chlorella to resestablish the good gut bacteria as was recommended by a holistic vet I have used who is also a trained osteopath.
I really rate osteopaths, having used one for 2 of mine recently and having sent my WB to the holistic vet some years ago after his sacro illiac dysfunction diagnosis. They will tackle things conventional vets label as impossible ie. The mobilisation of the sacrum in my boys case, which worked a treat.  It was interesting reading about the early sheath gelding scar suggestions earlier in this thread. My trainer talked of gelding scars after a myofascial massage course she attended and this is something that body workers feel and work on as a matter of course apparently in geldings due to the profound effect they can have.


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## Tnavas (9 January 2016)

NZJenny said:



			This.

In New Zealand a vet would never refer you to an osteo as there is no recognised qualification for that here.  Is there one in the UK?
		
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Not correct NZJenny - there may be no official qualification gained here in NZ but there are qualified Osteo's/chiro's and vets will refer you to them.

One even assisted while chiro worked on my horse under full anaesthetic.


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## D66 (9 January 2016)

Yasandcrystal  Can I ask which product you bought from Abler and the dose?


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## YasandCrystal (9 January 2016)

D66 said:



			Yasandcrystal  Can I ask which product you bought from Abler and the dose?
		
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I bought the a AblerPlus tablets and granules which contains a probiotic and I dosed 3 tablets and 2 x sachets a day for 4 weeks then I dropped to 1.5 tablets and 1 sachets a day for 2 weeks and then I did just 1 a day for a further week. They sell a package also so if you suspect you may need it again the package us a good deal. I used it for 2 horses and have some spare now if I need it. 
The people at Abler are very helpful if you go onto their online chat and the stuff came within 4 days of ordering.


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## Frenchmade (11 January 2016)

Bryndu said:



			Hi,
I am responding to the video....and have not read all the posts recently regarding meds  etc...but just wanted to comment on something if that is ok?

I notice on the vid of him for sale that he steps quite high in all four feet in the walk, trot and canter.

I have recently taken on a companion pony who has exactly the same way of going as your horse... and my farrier visited for the first time today. He has never seen this pony before and although the pony had seen her previous farrier 6 weeks previously....my farrier remarked - with no prompting from me I hasten to add - 'does this pony pick it's feet up quite high? This because the toes are too long'.

Now this does not mean long as in slipper like...but long as in the hooves are too tall so that the pony has the feeling of walking on platforms...and therefore picks the feet up high and 'places' them on the floor...and often overbalancing/tripping.

After trimming the pony  - a regular trim  - the pony is unshod - the difference in the way of going in the pony was astonishing....she walked out to the field with a normal gait.

I wonder if this may be something worth looking at?

Wishing you all the best .
Bryndu
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for your observations and comments.  Its an interesting idea. The video is now more than two years old. I think he had only been out of racing for a couple of months when the video was shot. Racehorses typically have long feet and low heels and this was commented on when examined by my vet just after purchase.  Since then, I've had three farriers, and each of them has worked on changing this.  There hasn't really been any change in the tripping problem even with the change in his hooves.  It was his farrier who noticed that he was dragging his right hind. His feet look completely different now. The vet seems to think they're OK though. I read somewhere ages ago, that most problems with horses backs originates in the feet.  I've only got my farrier and vet to go on. At some point I have to start trusting what they say. It's hard. But given that the vet and myself think there's something going on in his spine and all the evidence so far points to that, I think I have to go with that diagnosis for the moment.  There's just so much that could be wrong - I might make a list, just for devilment..

Today I walked him in hand for an hour through the forest trails, up and down the hills and through the vineyards, for a break from ground poles and lunging. He was amazingly good!  I've seen a change in his temperament this last week.  Starting with the hot shoeing, now he's so calm and even walked through puddles calmly and didn't do his usual snorting stallion impression when going down unfamiliar paths.  This tells me that he is no longer suffering and is more relaxed and happy. We have four more days of meds to take, then I'll see what he's like after the meds are out of his system.  The vet said she didn't believe he was in constant pain, but this last week has made me think otherwise.


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## Frenchmade (11 January 2016)

YasandCrystal said:



			I bought the a AblerPlus tablets and granules which contains a probiotic and I dosed 3 tablets and 2 x sachets a day for 4 weeks then I dropped to 1.5 tablets and 1 sachets a day for 2 weeks and then I did just 1 a day for a further week. They sell a package also so if you suspect you may need it again the package us a good deal. I used it for 2 horses and have some spare now if I need it. 
The people at Abler are very helpful if you go onto their online chat and the stuff came within 4 days of ordering.
		
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Very interested in this.  Given that it's said 90% of racehorses have ulcers.  I know he's been out of racing for quite a while now, 2.5 years at least, but he's still a stressy character.  But not this week!!!  Lol. . worth a think. Probably worth trying the drugs.  You know, it will probably turn out that he's got at least half a dozen different issues... where to start!?


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## Frenchmade (11 January 2016)

YasandCrystal said:



			I bought the a AblerPlus tablets and granules which contains a probiotic and I dosed 3 tablets and 2 x sachets a day for 4 weeks then I dropped to 1.5 tablets and 1 sachets a day for 2 weeks and then I did just 1 a day for a further week. They sell a package also so if you suspect you may need it again the package us a good deal. I used it for 2 horses and have some spare now if I need it. 
The people at Abler are very helpful if you go onto their online chat and the stuff came within 4 days of ordering.
		
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Do  you need a vet's prescription to order? Thanks.


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## Frenchmade (11 January 2016)

So, I've just looked up the medication the vet has prescribed. Flunixine. NSAID.  Ulcer causing. Great. And a 15 day course of it. So if he didn't have ulcers before, he may well have after this.  Advice is not to give more than 5 days, and to give with omeprazole at the same time. 

However, he's shown an improvement this last week. Time to talk to the vet again!


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## Frenchmade (12 February 2016)

I realise I really should update the thread, not least out of respect for all the people who read, replied and made suggestions or tried to help.  I do appreciate it. 

He was put to sleep on 1st February. We didn't do many further investigations after he had a month of working with pain relief, because it became very clear he was in pain and any kind of exercise made it worse. The vet was convinced it was damage to his spine, and everything I saw confirmed that. He was never going to be rideable, not the temperament to put out to grass, retirement liveries wouldn't take him (I did ask), would need constant pain relief, and at 7 years old there was no guarantee of a future free from distress or discomfort. Very sad.

Thanks again everyone.


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## _GG_ (12 February 2016)

Frenchmade said:



			I realise I really should update the thread, not least out of respect for all the people who read, replied and made suggestions or tried to help.  I do appreciate it. 

He was put to sleep on 1st February. We didn't do many further investigations after he had a month of working with pain relief, because it became very clear he was in pain and any kind of exercise made it worse. The vet was convinced it was damage to his spine, and everything I saw confirmed that. He was never going to be rideable, not the temperament to put out to grass, retirement liveries wouldn't take him (I did ask), would need constant pain relief, and at 7 years old there was no guarantee of a future free from distress or discomfort. Very sad.

Thanks again everyone.
		
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Very sorry to read your update but bless you for giving him a peaceful end to husband pain. Big hugs xxx


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## D66 (12 February 2016)

Im sorry it has ended so sadly for you.


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## Tnavas (12 February 2016)

(((((HUGS))))) a very brave and kind thing to do for your equine friend.


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## Leo Walker (12 February 2016)

_GG_ said:



			Very sorry to read your update but bless you for giving him a peaceful end to husband pain. Big hugs xxx
		
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This. He was a lucky boy to have you xx


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## Booboos (16 February 2016)

What terrible news. I am so sorry.


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## applecart14 (17 February 2016)

So sorry, that is very sad.


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