# Owner wanting me to buy back pony or going to court!!!



## Ballerina (3 August 2016)

Hi, I sold a pony to a lady 2months ago , had the pony for 5 years backed and produced myself for my son but he prefers football so decided to sell her as wanted kids to enjoy her and go to a loving family . The lady who brought the pony came to try her, pony was ridden by a child in walk, Troy, canter and jumped then their child got on and walked , trotted about . They where happy and purchased pony. After a few days she said that pony was bucking a little and dangerous but this was not my ponies behaviour at home.after a few days they said she's much calmer and going nicely, haven't heard nothing for the past 1month then yesterday I'm hearing that the pony is rearing being led and that she's going backwards in the school and rearing !! This is so heartbreaking to hear as this little pony had been amazing and when I had to sell her everyone at my yard was so upset . I've asked if they are whipping her or anything that could be making her be so scared and they won't tell me nothing apart from that I have to buy her back or she will take me to court.

I haven't got the money to buy her back and she's 3 hours away . The receipt was seen as sold. I'm so upset as this pony was amazing. 

What can I do or where do I stand with this ?


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## FestiveFuzz (3 August 2016)

What a nightmare! Happy to be corrected but I don't think sold as seen stands up legally, but unless the new owner can prove that you were aware of the current behaviour and knowingly misled/withheld that information I wouldn't expect they'll get very far assuming you're a private seller. 

In your shoes though I'd want to see first hand what's occurring so would probably pay them a visit to see if there's anything obvious causing the behaviour.

ETA - was this the pony you described as incredibly strong with a load of bad habits? If so it might just be easier to find the cash and put an end to this before they try to take it to court.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (3 August 2016)

The new laws regarding sales have been tightened up and comes down much more for the purchaser now, even with private sales: Must be fit for purpose is something that will be cited at you if they seek legal opinion.
You need to ensure that you have proof of the ponies safety in all respects right up to the point of sale.

I would phone the BHS legal line for assistance if you are a member, also be careful how much you post on the internet as anything could be used in a case.

Edited to add: to put on a receipt 'sold as seen and tried without professional opinion' is still not 'legal' but can help cover ones backside a little if a case goes to court, to add to 'proof' file


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## ihatework (3 August 2016)

My first step would be to go and view the pony in its new home.
Id want to see how it's being managed and ridden to see if there is an easy fix for the alleged behaviour


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## JillA (3 August 2016)

And check its tack


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## EQUIDAE (3 August 2016)

I'm with FestiveFuzz - it's documented on here that the pony was incredibly strong and tanking with even an adult on board, so was in no way suitable for a child. To be honest I'm surprised you sold it as a child's pony when you described it yourself as dangerous; you could have killed someone's child


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## stormox (3 August 2016)

Could you get her to send you a video of the 'bad behaviour'? You might spot something thryr doing....


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## Doormouse (3 August 2016)

EQUIDAE said:



			I'm with FestiveFuzz - it's documented on here that the pony was incredibly strong and tanking with even an adult on board, so was in no way suitable for a child. To be honest I'm surprised you sold it as a child's pony when you described it yourself as dangerous; you could have killed someone's child 

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I think from reading the op and then the thread you are referring to that is not the same pony. In the op it is stated that her son prefers football and gives the impression that new owners have pony on the lead rein. In the old thread about a strong pony op says she has competed and won etc on the strong pony so I'm guessing it is a bit bigger than a lead rein?


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## Damnation (3 August 2016)

EQUIDAE said:



			I'm with FestiveFuzz - it's documented on here that the pony was incredibly strong and tanking with even an adult on board, so was in no way suitable for a child. To be honest I'm surprised you sold it as a child's pony when you described it yourself as dangerous; you could have killed someone's child 

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Ballerina said:



			Long story short my pony is very strong and has loads of bad habits like runs to the jump with head in the air constantly trying to get tongue over the bit, I've tried Wilkie, Pelham, etc with martingale and grackle.

He's always done this with any riders that have had him in the past. He does it when schooling, hacking beach rides and cross country. It gets dangerous. 

He is a very hot headed pony he's has teeth, back and saddle checked and he still does it.
Peoples options please on 2 ring Dutch gag, roundings, martingale, flash. I know it sounds a lot.
		
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To be fair in the OP she refers to the pony as "she", in the post I have quoted she has refered to the pony as a "he" so I am presuming the pony she is talking about in the quote is not the one she has sold.


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## Pigeon (3 August 2016)

I would just buy it back. Less hassle, you won't damage your reputation, and at least pony is in safe hands, not shuffled off to the sales. Could they transport her back? 

I think it may go in the buyer's favour if it went to court - there is a child involved and that will probably affect the verdict.


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## Ballerina (3 August 2016)

Think you have the wrong pony the pony I'm on about has not ever ever bombed off or done anything like that the whole time I've owned her, the pony wouldn't know how to. I've asked for videos and they are never helpful.


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## stormox (3 August 2016)

So I take it it really was a genuine pony with no probs OP? And there were no complaint- there was even a phone call to say it was going nicely - till theyve had the pony 2 months? It surely must be something theyr doing, or not doing.  I see no reason to just 'buy it back' - I would definately either get them to video the bad behaviour, or go and see it for yourself, they might have been doing ridiculous things, or actually just have changed their minds having found out the realities of horse ownership!
OP - do you mean the videos arent helpful, or the buyers about  videoing? If its the buyers not showing you what the ponys doing, I wouldnt believe them at all.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 August 2016)

If they have not contacted you for nearly two months, they have not been fair to you or pony. The threat of court action is just that, no one knows what action a court would take and if it is small claims, then it would have to be raised in your location, not theirs [I think]. Any other court action would be very expensive and just as risky.
I would suggest you try to compromise, this will probably be spurned, but in the court s eyes, you have been reasonable, and they have not.
You can suggest they get a vet report and also get a senior BHSII to examine it, they have taken on ownership, and really, it is their responsiblilty to sort it, however if you word your LETTER carefully, they may see a way forward, for ponies sake it would be best returned, but it no longer has the value it once had.


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## Wagtail (3 August 2016)

As others have said, go and see the pony. I know she is 3 hours away but you owe her that. Often there is a reason why horses start misbehaving and it is often due to maltreatment in their new home, or badly fitting tack etc. My friend sent a lovely 4 year old away to be produced (he'd been backed the previous summer and then came back here to rest). He was born here and came out of winter in beautiful condition. He started rearing at his training home and when my friend visited she found a dehydrated skinny (condition score 1.5 - 2) and withdrawn horse. She was heartbroken. He's now with someone else and looks majorly better after only 2 weeks. He has also stopped his rearing. We are visiting him every week. This person was a well respected trainer who was highly recommended to us. Just shows you can't trust anyone and have to visit. Go see your girl.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (3 August 2016)

Wagtail said:



			As others have said, go and see the pony. I know she is 3 hours away but you owe her that. Often there is a reason why horses start misbehaving and it is often due to maltreatment in their new home, or badly fitting tack etc. ............. Just shows you can't trust anyone and have to visit. Go see your girl.
		
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^^^ This. If you have to beg steal borrow or sell your body basically (LOL), then go and see and if you can then buy her back, otherwise she could end up anywhere.

If she was OK with you then there's got to be a reason for this. 

Get the money together - somehow - take out a short term bank loan if you have to even; and go and see your girlie, she'll probably be hugely relieved to see you.

I know what I'd be doing if she'd ever passed through my hands.........


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## stormox (3 August 2016)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			^^^

Get the money together - somehow - take out a short term bank loan if you have to even; .........
		
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I dont think ANYONE should be taking out bank loans to buy a horse- whether it was theirs before or not. What about all the subsequent costs??? vets keep etc?? BIG NO NO in my book.


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## Ballerina (3 August 2016)

The buyer hasn't sent me anything videos or evidence that I have asked for. The pony suppose to not have beendoibg this behaviour at first but is now doing it.


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## FfionWinnie (3 August 2016)

I have to say I have owned one of mine for 4 years. I've had all sorts of riders on her including myself and she is a real gem of a pony who has never put a foot wrong in any situation (for instance I brought a Christmas tree in a plastic sack home tied to the back of the saddle without her blinking an eye). With novice riders she tends to be a slug so when my 7yr old daughter finally grew in to her my bigger worry was she wouldn't be able to get her going. 

I was quite wrong. Not only did she get her going, the pony took off with her and bronked her off!  She hung on the first time but the second time she was ditched. This was at home in the field I school the pony in after I had already ridden it for an hour. 

So different rider, different pony!  Had I just bought her I would definitely be thinking I had been done but as I say, 4 years of impeccable behaviour!

Therefore the pony could easily be behaving badly and if it is, they will naturally be thinking they have been done. 

Do you have video evidence and or witnesses to back up the good behaviour of the pony?

If not I might be worried about going to court to defend myself. 

I would insist they send you some video evidence of the pony misbehaving. This is completely reasonable for you to ask for. Stick to your guns. 

If you get the videos and think you can sort the pony out, go over there and help them. Yes it's a faff but you've said the pony was a good one so personally I would want to do it. 

Lastly check out the rights they have and what rights you have too.  BHS gold membership is only about 60 quid so if you haven't got it I would get it now.  They have a legal advice line which is extremely useful about telling you where you stand. 

Re my pony I put her on the lunge and daughter is riding her successfully in controlled circumstances, I will leave it a while before she goes solo as I obviously don't want her to continue to take advantage. Presumably these people don't have the knowledge of how to handle a misbehaving pony and / or are panicking about what they have bought.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 August 2016)

Panicking after two months ................. to me that is the issue, it takes about a week to ruin the trust of most animals, assuming they re not trying to do it, in which case it can take just a few hours of outright cruelty.

If the pony had been frightened by the new home, it/he /she would not wait two months.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 August 2016)

stormox said:



			I dont think ANYONE should be taking out bank loans to buy a horse- whether it was theirs before or not. What about all the subsequent costs??? vets keep etc?? BIG NO NO in my book.
		
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Well, when I started with ponies, I had £10K in the bank, and it ended up with a lot of tears/and a lot more than £10K, in fact I had a man booked to shoot my last pony one Thrusday because no one would help me, and he was bought on the Tuesday, by means of BHS Welfare, and that took quite a lot of persuasion as the person who had pony was a biggish noise in the local BHS but made life difficult both for me and for Doolie. Who would opt to shoot a horse for no good reason? I do not know what these people think. They are not horse lovers, they are self lovers.
I know my boy is OK now, but really who the hell would refuse assistance and refuse care of a pony in distress? Preferring that they were shot.?

When I say I started with ponies, that was after 40 years or so of being a professional, starting age 12 breaking 50 Shetlands at ten bob a time. I progressed ................ looking after yards of 30 to 160 TBs , and private training for owners.


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## OWLIE185 (3 August 2016)

Change of environment and owner/rider can produce a dramatic change in a horses behaviour.  (I had one that took 2 years to settle down)!  
My advice would be so to minimise your costs (legal fees cost a fortune in money, time and anguish) would be to get them at their expense to bring back the pony and you to refund them the money they paid for it.


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## EQUIDAE (3 August 2016)

OWLIE185 said:



			Change of environment and owner/rider can produce a dramatic change in a horses behaviour.  (I had one that took 2 years to settle down)!  
My advice would be so to minimise your costs (legal fees cost a fortune in money, time and anguish) would be to get them at their expense to bring back the pony and you to refund them the money they paid for it.
		
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I wouldn't be doing this - they are going to be returning a pony that is very difficult to sell and could take time and £££s to sort out.


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## Ballerina (3 August 2016)

That's what I mean, they have somehow created this behaviour, if I had the money I'd have her back but I had bills to pay , I just feel they are now taking the mic out of me as they know I love this pony to bits .


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## ossy (3 August 2016)

I think there are two issues here 1) what emotionally you feel for the pony and want to do for the pony and 2) legally what your obligations might be.  
I don't pretend to know anything about the legal side but maybe you might want to point them in the direction of this case, might scare them off threating legal action and work with you on a solution. 
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-34982843


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## Lizzie66 (3 August 2016)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			The new laws regarding sales have been tightened up and comes down much more for the purchaser now, even with private sales: Must be fit for purpose is something that will be cited at you if they seek legal opinion.
You need to ensure that you have proof of the ponies safety in all respects right up to the point of sale.

Edited to add: to put on a receipt 'sold as seen and tried without professional opinion' is still not 'legal' but can help cover ones backside a little if a case goes to court, to add to 'proof' file
		
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I think you are misinformed I have just checked the "Money Saving Expert" website regarding consumer rights in a sale and below is the excerpt regarding private sales.

The rules change with private sellers
If you're buying second-hand goods from a private seller (someone who doesn't sell goods for all or part of their living), your rights are nowhere near as strong as when buying from a shop.
The only protection is that it's correctly described and the owner has the right to sell it. Here, it really is a case of caveat emptor or "let the buyer beware". 
So if the seller says nowt or little about the goods and you buy it, then that's it. Even if it's shoddy, you weren't mis-sold, so have no comeback. 
Though if they lie to you  you do

So as the OP sold the pony as seen and tried and as long as she didn't lie about the pony then the sale would stand. Also when the law changed it amended reasonable time to a defined time of 30 days to reject goods for money back so even if OP was a dealer then the buyers rights would be reduced because of this.


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## Amymay (3 August 2016)

I can't imagine you sold it for big bucks. I'm in the buy it back camp too..


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## ester (3 August 2016)

Yes as a buyer from private you have 'correctly described' not 'fit for purpose. '


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## Alec Swan (3 August 2016)

Ballerina,  OK,  a midway approach;  

if you are being sincere and truthful on here and if you were to the buyer (as I suspect that you are and were),  I'd suggest that the change in the pony's behaviour is of the making of the new owners and so not your responsibility.  All so often there are those who spoil decent horses and then threaten Court action to have the damaged goods returned and a reimbursement.

Here's the midway bit;  how about writing to the new owner,  pointing out that the change in behaviour has only come about post the sale and that whilst you aren't in any way responsible for their treatment of the pony,  you will take her back,  correct what's wrong and attempt to sell her,  but on their behalf.  There would need to be a clear understanding as to who's responsible for the keep and ancillary costs,  and it would need to be the present owner,  but it would be an indication that you're making an attempt to reach resolve.

How many times have we seen horses and their behaviour altered by ignorance or abuse,  only to have the buyer attempt to rescind a contract and following their own inabilities?  Were I in your shoes and were I certain that I was acting with a clear conscience then I wouldn't take back damaged goods,  no matter who it was.

Alec.


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## Ballerina (3 August 2016)

She was sold for £1150 including full wardrobe, I'm and mum and wife, with only a part time job and a mortgage to pay and Bills, I backed and produced this pony for my son who loved this pony but prefered football so couldn't afford to keep her as pet and for everyone elses children to ride down the yard. I'm a little to big for her and look silly at shows as I'm 31 years on a 12.2hh pony.


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## Vodkagirly (3 August 2016)

Given it has taken 2 months for them to say he isn't right and they won't give you any videos of the behaviour, I would be suspicious.
I would write/email back saying sorry they are having issues the pony was fine when he was with you. If they want to bring the pony for you to look at, you would happily help/advise however your not in a position to buy back and its too far for you to travel to them.


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## wingedhorse (3 August 2016)

Ballerina said:



			She was sold for £1150 including full wardrobe, I'm and mum and wife, with only a part time job and a mortgage to pay and Bills, I backed and produced this pony for my son who loved this pony but prefered football so couldn't afford to keep her as pet and for everyone elses children to ride down the yard. I'm a little to big for her and look silly at shows as I'm 31 years on a 12.2hh pony.
		
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I used to around 2001, keep an ex-racehorse on an event yard. I had plans to travel for a bit. I sold him via a SJ dealer who was personally recommended. He loved to jump (I didn't) and had his jumping polished and was sold to a low level eventing home, fully vetted etc.

A few months later the new owner (more experienced than I was, BE eventer etc), phone up that horse was taking off out hacking and bolting. And had done it with her experienced yard owner. 

I couldn't really help, nor could I buy horse back (I had paid half the sale price in training and selling fees), and had left my job re the travelling.

They phoned my yard owner (named eventer) and the large breaking yard next door. Both testified that I had successfully hacked the horse extensively, mostly solo, as a relative novice, all across the miles of Downs and Ridgeways that were local.

The owner dropped the case. And kept the horse, he then had secondary physically issues, surgery, and was eventually PTS.

Point to my rambling, do you have a series of respected professionals willing to testify to the pony's good handling and ridden behaviour?

I would be inclined to reply:

You experienced the pony as easy handle and as a kind children's pony. You have the following professional witnesses who are willing to support this statement, as witnesses on a number of occasions.

You will not accept the pony as mis-sold.

However you will accept that the pony is currently not happy and it is not unheard of for ponies to change their behaviour when they change home. 

Your suggestion is that the pony needs to be sold, and you recommend X professional who knows the pony, and should be able to sell the pony on for them.


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## Ballerina (3 August 2016)

One of the girls down the yard who rode this pony for the girls first ever show last year where places 4th in a showing class of 15+ and qualified for sunshine tour , they went to hickstead and done well . The girl has contacted them telling them that she had never experienced any behaviour that they are describing and the lady is still not happy with that.


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## be positive (3 August 2016)

It sounds as if the pony is very unhappy for some reason, a change of home can sometimes make even the best pony behave out of character, she was obviously unsettled initially then became better so for a few weeks they were happy, it is now summer holidays so they are probably doing more and something has set her off again, it could be numerous things from the tack being on wrong, her gaining or losing weight so the saddle no longer fits, rough handling, unsympathetic instructors, teeth needing doing, the list goes on, none of which mean she was mis sold it just happens sometimes, I have seen it often enough and at times it can be easily fixed if the new owner is willing and able to try, other times they are not so willing or able and it will never work out. 

If it were mine I would always take the pony back but after 2 months it would be to sell on their behalf, I think they will find the costs of actually taking you to court will be far more than they stand to gain, if you can meet them halfway by offering to have it back and give them whatever is left after expenses, any sensible legal adviser would tell them to take that offer rather than waste money trying to chase you, the other option would be for them to send it to a professional yard to be assessed and sold if suitable, they will need a professional assessment if they did decide to take further action against you and I guess they haven't done that yet otherwise they should have sent you the damning video evidence.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 August 2016)

I am sorry for pony, to be unwanted by owners, but it IS the owners responsibility, all you can do is to advise/take him back at no expense,


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## Ballerina (3 August 2016)

Thank u all for the advice and a bit of reassurance as one msg she sent was for me to give her half the money back and she tries to sell her for the rest of the money to get her money back. I have constantly tried to reason with this lady but all she keeps saying is the pony is dangerous and wants her money back.


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## stormox (3 August 2016)

The buyers have 
1) seen and tried the pony.
2) phoned to say the pony is going nicely.
3) kept the pony for 2 months with no complaints.
4) are refusing to send videos or give any other evidence the pony is misbehaving.
I see absolutely no reason why the seller should take the pony back and refund the money (ie buy it back). The seller sold the pony in good faith, she cant afford to buy it back, neither does she want the pony as her son doesnt want to ride.

My guess is they have just got fed up with the realities of horse owning. Let them threaten court action- I doubt they will go through  with it.


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## Ballerina (3 August 2016)

stormox said:



			The buyers have 
1) seen and tried the pony.
2) phoned to say the pony is going nicely.
3) kept the pony for 2 months with no complaints.
4) are refusing to send videos or give any other evidence the pony is misbehaving.
I see absolutely no reason why the seller should take the pony back and refund the money (ie buy it back). The seller sold the pony in good faith, she cant afford to buy it back, neither does she want the pony as her son doesnt want to ride.

My guess is they have just got fed up with the realities of horse owning. Let them threaten court action- I doubt they will go through  with it.
		
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Thank u, as when someone is harassing me till midnight and I have to get up to go to work at 4.30 am it makes me think omg she's taking me to court in then goin to have a ccj against my name and the poor pony is so unhappy to be acting this way , what have they done to her poor thing. It's not like I can ring someone and ask them if she's being badly treated as she's so far away, it's made me so upset and stressing about the whole situation.


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## oldie48 (3 August 2016)

Poor pony, it won't be the first time that changing homes changed a pony's behaviour. If your son did PC it would be worth getting your DC to comment on her behaviour at rally's etc. I wouldn't be taking the pony back and I doubt it will come to court. Has she posted anything on FB about the pony, might be worth looking.


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## Ballerina (3 August 2016)

oldie48 said:



			Poor pony, it won't be the first time that changing homes changed a pony's behaviour. If your son did PC it would be worth getting your DC to comment on her behaviour at rally's etc. I wouldn't be taking the pony back and I doubt it will come to court. Has she posted anything on FB about the pony, might be worth looking.
		
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As I have always had ponies and horses since a young age so when I had my son and he was old enough [4years old] lol.I wanted him to ride m, he learnt how to ride on this pony, but he was never into it to start pony club so never joined but did go to shows. I don't have Facebook but the girl that rode her had and are friends with them so we could keep in contact with them and they supposedly have t put anything on it .


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## fatpiggy (3 August 2016)

Bonkers2 said:



			I am sorry for pony, to be unwanted by owners, but it IS the owners responsibility, all you can do is to advise/take him back at no expense,
		
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But she doesn't own the pony any more. The new owners are responsible for him. They should seek professional help from a riding instructor.  I suspect the court route is pure threat.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (3 August 2016)

Say no and leave them to it. Pony was tried and bought based on that viewing. I would have no further contact with her. I would also speak to someone legal about this and have some professional advice. One she realises you are NOT entertaining this then she will either have to put her money where her mouth is and pay a solicitor to send you a letter or leave you alone.


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## Snuffles (3 August 2016)

She wants you to give her half the money back and "sell the horse herself" cynical moi ?  Methinks they are trying it on


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## smja (3 August 2016)

Everything that you have seen with your own eyes says this pony is genuine. you have provided further references of pony's character.

New owner has not provided any evidence of 'dangerous' behaviour, and even reported good behaviour verbally.

Despite what emotions you have towards the pony, it is her problem and not yours. Do not have any contact with her. If she's calling you until midnight, switch off your phone/put it into airplane mode.


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## Amymay (3 August 2016)

Well your best course of action now is to send her your solicitors details and tell her to refer all further correspondence through him.


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## JillA (3 August 2016)

If you care for the pony, find a way to get him back - he is clearly struggling and if she passes him on as not safe he will end up at a sale. 
If you don't care for the pony, say "see you in court" and call her bluff. She has had the pony long enough to make a significant difference to his health and temperament - and he was sold as seen, they had ample time to try him, he was fit for purpose at that time. No court will find in her favour - especially if you (or someone you delegate to as if he was on loan) goes and can pinpoint what they are doing to make him defend himself so much.
Where is he and how much does he owe you - if he is that good someone on here might be prepared to either go and see what is going wrong, or even buy him and work to get him back to the good child's pony you say he was. Good ponies for kids are usually sought after


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## The Fuzzy Furry (3 August 2016)

OP, are you the one 'involved' on a v long facebook thread in the south on a high traffic horse group? 
Very similar thing going on in local pages since weekend :confused3: If not, my apologies


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## Ballerina (3 August 2016)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			OP, are you the one 'involved' on a v long facebook thread in the south on a high traffic horse group? 
Very similar thing going on in local pages since weekend :confused3: If not, my apologies 

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Don't know as I haven't got Facebook


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## Ballerina (3 August 2016)

What was that about ?


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## FestiveFuzz (3 August 2016)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			OP, are you the one 'involved' on a v long facebook thread in the south on a high traffic horse group? 
Very similar thing going on in local pages since weekend :confused3: If not, my apologies 

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I thought that one was sold on behalf of the owner by a dealer, if it's the thread I'm thinking of?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (3 August 2016)

FestiveFuzz said:



			I thought that one was sold on behalf of the owner by a dealer, if it's the thread I'm thinking of?
		
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Bit more to that one than meets the eye too.

op, not you in that one then


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## Ballerina (3 August 2016)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Bit more to that one than meets the eye too.

op, not you in that one then 

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Thank god I haven't got Facebook &#55357;&#56834; X


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## FestiveFuzz (3 August 2016)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Bit more to that one than meets the eye too.
		
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Indeed! All sounds very odd.


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## hairycob (3 August 2016)

I think Sniffles is on the right track


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## CleanShavings (3 August 2016)

Another option is to ask if one member of HHO would go and access the pony for you if they are local to it now. It would need to be a professional riding instructor etc, but if all is well then you will have evidence, or on the other hand if pony is being difficult they can suggest a course of action that not involve going to court.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (4 August 2016)

I don't think they will go to court, and if they do it will be in OP s court, it is unlikely to "win" whatever that means, and  if OP is skint she can pay back in small doses.


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## Tapir (4 August 2016)

They won't sent you videos of the bad behaviour, want half their money back and to keep the pony?  They're trying it on.


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## mytwofriends (4 August 2016)

smja said:



			Everything that you have seen with your own eyes says this pony is genuine. you have provided further references of pony's character.

New owner has not provided any evidence of 'dangerous' behaviour, and even reported good behaviour verbally.

Despite what emotions you have towards the pony, it is her problem and not yours. Do not have any contact with her. If she's calling you until midnight, switch off your phone/put it into airplane mode.
		
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This I'm sorry to say.

The new owners are taking the mickey. They need to put some time and effort into finding out what's wrong with THEIR pony.


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## Southern (4 August 2016)

I moved my horse to a new yard and she gradually became more and more unsettled there.  I was there several months and my horses behaviour changed dramatically. She hated it and became dangerous to try to hack.  I moved yards again and my horse reverted back to the saint she'd been before.
A yard change can make a huge difference to behaviour.


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## Lanky Loll (4 August 2016)

Can you not offer to go over and see what the problem is to work with them to sort it out? I wouldn't be offering to buy back as yes 2 months is long enough for them to have caused all sorts of issues; but working with them either to get the pony going for them to sell or getting the child and pony together again may be seen as a positive step?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (4 August 2016)

Chances are if the OP goes to them personally they will bully her into taking the pony back, I would stay clear.


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## Achinghips (4 August 2016)

Ask for video evidence. If the horse is stressed out and unhappy, I would go get her back. I'd feel pity for her and obligated, and, more so, having backed her myself.  I would find the money from somewhere. If you lose in court, which is probable as a child is involved, you will pay solicitors fees also.


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## popsdosh (5 August 2016)

Achinghips said:



			Ask for video evidence. If the horse is stressed out and unhappy, I would go get her back. I'd feel pity for her and obligated, and, more so, having backed her myself.  I would find the money from somewhere. If you lose in court, which is probable as a child is involved, you will pay solicitors fees also.
		
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There is nothing to lose in court the problem has clearly occurred recently why under the buyers control and why should a child being involved change the application of law ,there are to many assumptions being made here.
For what its worth I would just ignore them and shut it out of your mind and if they keep harassing you warn them to stop and then go to the police if not. There is a legal system in place to deal with it if they want to try and use it which I doubt they will  ,dont be afraid of losing as I very much doubt they will.
They are trying to bully you most likely because theres been a change of heart. From experience those who shout about it very rarely go to court as they know they dont have a leg to stand on.Put simply in two words Ignore them!!!!

If you feel you owe the horse anything thats a different matter but only you know that! Sounds like they have screwed it up not sure id want to risk taking it back for sentimental reasons.


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## Elbie (5 August 2016)

I think they are trying it on to be honest. You didn't baulk straight away when the said take her back or go to court so now they are just trying to break you down by harassment. If they were serious I don't think they'd be trying to negotiate. As soon as you said no they would've instructed lawyers or sent a letter from their solicitor. They haven't provided video evidence as you requested. 

I would assume the behaviour is a result of something they are doing/have done and they should get professional help with the pony. I think I would take the hard line and say you won't take pony back and they need to seek help with her. Only reply to correspondence that warrants a reply and if it gets too much direct her to your solicitor.


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## supagran (5 August 2016)

Lots of advice on here, but OP has to decide if they want to find the money to buy pony back.  As far as i can see the only other alternative is to find a good equine lawyer (there are a few around) and get some professional advice.  Must be worth a couple of hundred pounds to sort it out.  Stressful going down the legal route - yes, but worth it in the end.


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## popsdosh (5 August 2016)

supagran said:



			Lots of advice on here, but OP has to decide if they want to find the money to buy pony back.  As far as i can see the only other alternative is to find a good equine lawyer (there are a few around) and get some professional advice.  Must be worth a couple of hundred pounds to sort it out.  Stressful going down the legal route - yes, but worth it in the end.
		
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why waste money now on a solicitor ,they are only threats at the moment that rarely come to fruition. . The quickest way to bring it to a head is to ignore them and force their hand which is what they are trying to bully the OP into.


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## Ballerina (5 August 2016)

Thank u all for advice as really appreciate it , the rearing being led has by started from the beginning as they didint mention it at the start ( they said they where doing loads of ground work with her before they wanted to get on ) then 6 weeks later I'm hearing that she's planting and rearing whilst being led!! They have some one thing to this pony for her to acted scared as this pony is no way in hell nasty or naughty . I feel so angry as I've asked what are they doing and they don't say what they are doing, if they are whipping her or being aggressive then any horse will try and defend there self before giving in . If she wins because a child is involved then I wouldn't be able to pay her in one lump sun it would have to be monthly do do I get pony back and pay monthly or don't get pony back untill I've paid it all off ?
In that time she could of sold all what I gave her with the pony i.e fitted saddle bridle loads of rugs ect.


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## Sukistokes2 (5 August 2016)

If the pony was as sold I do not see you have an issue. You seem to be panicking a lot over this. It could go to court but will cost a lot of money and take a lot of commitment to do so. Even if it goes small claims it costs. You seem to be going around in circles with what ifs. To be honest I don't think that have a leg to stand on. However, stop going around in circles and ring and get some advice from the BHS and see where you stand. Otherwise you are just winding yourself up, going over things you really don't know would or could happen. People talk the talk but rarely back it up.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (5 August 2016)

Sukistokes2 said:



			If the pony was as sold I do not see you have an issue. You seem to be panicking a lot over this. It could go to court but will cost a lot of money and take a lot of commitment to do so. Even if it goes small claims it costs. You seem to be going around in circles with what ifs. To be honest I don't think that have a leg to stand on. However, stop going around in circles and ring and get some advice from the BHS and see where you stand. Otherwise you are just winding yourself up, going over things you really don't know would or could happen. People talk the talk but rarely back it up.
		
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As above, you can offer to take pony and all kit back, at their expense.
There is no question of you paying them back the purchase price.
They have been unfair to you and to pony, and it could have some massive damage that in the worst case scenario requires it to be pts.

This, however is very unlikely, much more likely is that they have tired of pony, have messed it up and would like you to give them YOUR money 
If you can get them to agree to return the pony, then you are halfway there. Do not agree to go and pick up pony, it may not be there.
Just tell them you will purchase pony for a nominal sum [say £300 cash on delivery, as this is all you can afford at the moment],   and ONLY if it is returned to you in good condition and with passport, tack and rugs in the condition they received them, then keep quiet. Do not enter in to any agreement of staged payments or they may then take you to court as a debtor.

BHS legal helpline will advise now even though the problem is in the past.

Be perfectly clear, they own the pony. What they want is your money. 
Courts are not interested in ponies, they will look at legal aspects of the sale, which is all in your favour.


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## pansymouse (5 August 2016)

I've been in a similar situation.  Sold a super gentle loving loyal pony to a what I thought were a knowledgeable family. They handled him badly and he got very stressed and started really playing up.  Because he's a super little chap who I have a massive soft spot for, I bought him back.  However I gave them considerably less than they paid because they had turned a well schooled hunting pony into a feral bag of nerves. I've got him right again am loaning him rather than selling him.

ETA They never threatened me legally; I did purely on welfare grounds.


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## Dry Rot (5 August 2016)

Not a pony but an expensive gundog that the purchaser claimed was gunshy. He demanded a replacement. In fact, he had caused the problem.

I sent a polite reply stating that I'd be pleased to discuss the matter with his solicitor but not with him. I heard no more about it. 

My solcitor said that if I sent him another dog, he would just ruin that too! I think he was right.

Do not communicate with the purchaser directly or it will just get emotional. At least a solicitor will be professional and it will cost them money.


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## Nicnac (5 August 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			Not a pony but an expensive gundog that the purchaser claimed was gunshy. He demanded a replacement. In fact, he had caused the problem.

I sent a polite reply stating that I'd be pleased to discuss the matter with his solicitor but not with him. I heard no more about it. 

My solcitor said that if I sent him another dog, he would just ruin that too! I think he was right.

Do not communicate with the purchaser directly or it will just get emotional. At least a solicitor will be professional and it will cost them money.
		
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Best advice so far.  The threat of a solicitor often backs off these type of bullies.


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## Fransurrey (5 August 2016)

Agreed. Similar happened to me, many years ago. Parents bought pony for teenager. Known to rear and demonstrated it on the viewing. All seemed happy (sold for peanuts as ongoing project). Had emails to say all was great, loved pony blah blah. Then out of blue I get an email from angry Dad, threatening court action or all money back as he bolted and was dangerous (he was neither). Devastated I arranged within a hour for transport and emailed back to say I was was going to collect him. Silence. I made further contact later in the day and said I would collect the next day and leave money with their YO if they were not around. Then a third party contacted me to say that the family had already sold him to a dealer. I was devastated. They made a vast profit and still tried to screw me over to boot. I managed to trace him but the dealer was hours away and wanted her money back plus transport costs, which were 4x what I sold him for. Never saw him again. Beware they haven't done the same, OP.


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## paddy555 (5 August 2016)

Black Beastie said:



			Chances are if the OP goes to them personally they will bully her into taking the pony back, I would stay clear.
		
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I would go and see the pony, however far it is. I would also take an experienced child with you who was used to handling and riding the pony. I would ask the other party to led it and ride it so you can see what is going on. Video it if possible. Then get your own rider to handle it and ride it. Video it again. Then explain, if you think it is the case, that the damage has been done by themselves, it was perfect to ride when they tried it and it left you. You cannot be responsible for putting right their mistakes. I would separate the sale price between the pony and it's wardrobe, explain you cannot offer the sale price back as it is going to cost you to put right their mistakes. Offer say half the sale price providing  you feel the pony can be turned around and you are willing to take it back. Advise that is all you can offer in an attempt to be helpful. Otherwise suggest they take professional advice from an instructor to have the pony reschooled. If you don't want the wardrobe back tell them to sell it, otherwise negotiate for it. After  you have done that tell them take it or leave it and if they want to pursue further you will look forward to hearing from  their solicitor. Then leave. By the time you have reached your car they may well have taken up your offer.


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## stormox (5 August 2016)

I really dont understand why people are saying OP should 'go and see the pony'. Its over  2 months down the line, Itd be a wholeday taken up, the expense of 6 hours travelling, hassle for the OP, and the new owners  haven't even provided proof that it is doing anything wrong.
If the new owners were nice, and had asked for help, and advice, yes then see what you can do. But they havent been nice, first thing theyve said (after first saying its going well)  is ''buy this pony back or we'l take you to  court'.
Rude, bullying  behaviour, IMHO. A threat, thats all, and one I doubt they will go through with. But if OP plays  into their hands by being intimidated into going to their place, the bullying will get  worse, OP will be even more upset.
Theres only one thing to be one with these kind of people- block them from your phone and ignore, or  as DryRot sensibly  says, tell them to contact you via solicitor.


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## Wagtail (5 August 2016)

stormox said:



			I really dont understand why people are saying OP should 'go and see the pony'. Its over  2 months down the line, Itd be a wholeday taken up, the expense of 6 hours travelling, hassle for the OP, and the new owners  haven't even provided proof that it is doing anything wrong.
If the new owners were nice, and had asked for help, and advice, yes then see what you can do. But they havent been nice, first thing theyve said (after first saying its going well)  is ''buy this pony back or we'l take you to  court'.
Rude, bullying  behaviour, IMHO. A threat, thats all, and one I doubt they will go through with. But if OP plays  into their hands by being intimidated into going to their place, the bullying will get  worse, OP will be even more upset.
Theres only one thing to be one with these kind of people- block them from your phone and ignore, or  as DryRot sensibly  says, tell them to contact you via solicitor.
		
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Because it's a living, breathing animal and not a car, and because presumably the OP had some affection for the poor animal. It's not all about money and hassle.


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## Jingley (5 August 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Because it's a living, breathing animal and not a car, and because presumably the OP had some affection for the poor animal. It's not all about money and hassle.
		
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I totally agree!


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## Roasted Chestnuts (5 August 2016)

These people are playing on the obvious affection the OP has for the pony. Sometime you have to just be hard, yes it's an animal but at the end of the day why should the OP put herself in debt for someone else's problems. 

She sold the pony with the best intentions, the pony was fit for purpose and as far as the seller goes that's it. Some people are disgraceful on the lengths they will go to including emotional blackmail to get what they want. You have to harden your heart sometimes to show these people they cannot always get what they want.


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## Achinghips (5 August 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Because it's a living, breathing animal and not a car, and because presumably the OP had some affection for the poor animal. It's not all about money and hassle.
		
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Yep. I'm confused though, how can they have ruined this animal in two months? why would it's behaviour be so different now? I can't quite believe that their treatment of him could have turned this pony around so much ....


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## supagran (5 August 2016)

popsdosh said:



			why waste money now on a solicitor ,they are only threats at the moment that rarely come to fruition. . The quickest way to bring it to a head is to ignore them and force their hand which is what they are trying to bully the OP into.
		
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I know from experience that a good lawyer takes a lot of the stress out of a situation like this.  Much less stressful than the bullying of a purchaser trying it on!


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## JillA (5 August 2016)

Achinghips said:



			Yep. I'm confused though, how can they have ruined this animal in two months? why would it's behaviour be so different now? I can't quite believe that their treatment of him could have turned this pony around so much ....
		
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Seriously? You can change an animal in two days if you really try, or two weeks if you aren't trying that hard, especially if it is in a stressful environment


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## Sukistokes2 (5 August 2016)

Achinghips said:



			Yep. I'm confused though, how can they have ruined this animal in two months? why would it's behaviour be so different now? I can't quite believe that their treatment of him could have turned this pony around so much ....
		
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 I sent off my beautiful traditional gypsy cob on loan three months ago. Three weeks ago I picked up a hat rack. I'd even seen him twice in the interim, he not only came back thin, he is also head shy and afraid for his head collar to be put on. In THREE months !!!! 
Recovering well now.


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## Achinghips (5 August 2016)

JillA said:



			Seriously? You can change an animal in two days if you really try, or two weeks if you aren't trying that hard, especially if it is in a stressful environment
		
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In fairness, any horse will take time to settle and this one was in one environment before and after backing so it will take time in a new environment as it will be context specific bound, however, to be turned into a nutcase? I can't quite believe it


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## Achinghips (5 August 2016)

Sukistokes2 said:



			I sent off my beautiful traditional gypsy cob on loan three months ago. Three weeks ago I picked up a hat rack. I'd even seen him twice in the interim, he not only came back thin, he is also head shy and afraid for his head collar to be put on. In THREE months !!!! 
Recovering well now.
		
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That's so awful, what the f did they do to him, glad he's on the mend. As you can see by my pic I have a penchant for cobs !


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## Dry Rot (5 August 2016)

Achinghips said:



			In fairness, any horse will take time to settle and this one was in one environment before and after backing so it will take time in a new environment as it will be context specific bound, however, to be turned into a nutcase? I can't quite believe it
		
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I can!


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## Llanali (5 August 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			I can!
		
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And me. A fortnight at a rough wanna be dealer saw one that I would have condemned an incurable nut job, had I not know it the preceding four years.


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## Mince Pie (5 August 2016)

Achinghips said:



			Yep. I'm confused though, how can they have ruined this animal in two months? why would it's behaviour be so different now? I can't quite believe that their treatment of him could have turned this pony around so much ....
		
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JillA said:



			Seriously? You can change an animal in two days if you really try, or two weeks if you aren't trying that hard, especially if it is in a stressful environment
		
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A friend had a pony ruined by the loaners in 5 weeks, left the yard a saint and came back thin, riddled with lice and bronking. Still to this day have no idea what the hell happened as we both saw the pony at the loaners yard to try and help them (I went as friend was too big for the pony so I rode). It happens


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## Achinghips (6 August 2016)

Well, if this is the case, let's hope for the sake of this poor pony, the OP buys him back ASAP.


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## popsdosh (6 August 2016)

supagran said:



			I know from experience that a good lawyer takes a lot of the stress out of a situation like this.  Much less stressful than the bullying of a purchaser trying it on!
		
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The OP has already stated that they are hard up ,why add extra cost ?
I used a very experienced litigation solicitor last year, they turned a situation which was winnable into a 18k judgement against us because of a mistake they dont always save you the cost or indeed the stress. In the OPs case if they felt they needed a solicitor they would be better off just taking the pony back as it would be cheaper in the long run.
Plus do not forget in most cases heard in small claims your costs are not recoverable from the other side.


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## stormox (6 August 2016)

Achinghips said:



			Well, if this is the case, let's hope for the sake of this poor pony, the OP buys him back ASAP.
		
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She cant afford to buy him back, and has no rider for him. Have you read her first post? She sold in good faith and the buyers are using threats to try and make her buy him.
The pony is the buyers responsibility, they saw and tried him and have owned him for over 2 months. They should just sell him if they arent getting on with him. Someones nightmare is another riders dream horse....


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## Exploding Chestnuts (6 August 2016)

popsdosh said:



			The OP has already stated that they are hard up ,why add extra cost ?
I used a very experienced litigation solicitor last year, they turned a situation which was winnable into a 18k judgement against us because of a mistake they dont always save you the cost . 
Plus do not forget in most cases heard in small claims your costs are not recoverable from the other side.
		
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Correct, but that works both ways, it is just a nonsense to think that the purchaser is likely to get her money back on this pony, nor should they.
I have only found one solicitor who helped me, and represented me in court , this was all done and dusted at court, on the day, after obfuscation by the  local practising solicitors who were not interested, as legal aid was not certain. Well, they wrongly advised me it was not available.
I have also had one solicitor who lost my credibility , when he "translated" _nappy horse_ into_ lame horse_, in spite of the fact that I asked him if he was clear what nappy means.
Another told me to forget about taking Lord Tiddleypush to court, when in fact it transpired that I had a good case, most particularly that he had blatently contravened the terms of his RS Licence, among many other things.
OP does not need a solicitor, she just needs to make an offer acceptable to her.


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## fatpiggy (8 August 2016)

Jingley said:



			I totally agree!
		
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You and Wagtail will put your hands in your pockets then to rescue the animal? No?  Thought not.


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## stormox (8 August 2016)

Exacactly ..



fatpiggy said:



			You and Wagtail will put your hands in your pockets then to rescue the animal? No?  Thought not.[/QUOTE
Its only a pony that has been bought by someone who now doesnt want him, for whatever reason. It isnt a rescue case, its a scenario that happens time and time again. The buyer should just sell him on, hopefully to a more suitable home, not threaten the seller.
		
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## Achinghips (8 August 2016)

fatpiggy said:



			You and Wagtail will put your hands in your pockets then to rescue the animal? No?  Thought not.
		
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People are entitled to their opinion, no need to get narky


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## fatpiggy (8 August 2016)

Achinghips said:



			People are entitled to their opinion, no need to get narky
		
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Indeed they are - but that doesn't include telling the OP that IF she thought anything about the pony she would just buy it back.  A nice little stab in the back there.


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## Mince Pie (8 August 2016)

fatpiggy said:



			Indeed they are - but that doesn't include telling the OP that IF she thought anything about the pony she would just buy it back.  A nice little stab in the back there.
		
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And what is she supposed to buy it with - leprachaun gold?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (8 August 2016)

fatpiggy said:



			Indeed they are - but that doesn't include telling the OP that IF she thought anything about the pony she would just buy it back.  A nice little stab in the back there.
		
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Very good point, it does seem like some posters have the same emotional blackmail reasoning as the people complaining in this case. the OP cannot afford the pony, neither is it her problem to deal with.


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## Damnation (8 August 2016)

OP - Seek an hours legal advice. CAB or most solicitors places will have a half hour or hours free consultation.

You cannot afford the pony so you will not be buying it back. That does not make you heartless, or cruel or anything else. They had pleanty of time by law to return the pony but have not done so. Going to visit the pony could be seen as accepting liability, I personally would not.

You sold the pony, and as much as I know you probably still care deeply for the pony,  sometimes you have to be hard hearted.


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## EmmasMummy (8 August 2016)

Ponies can change very quickly!  Our SecA was always a bit sharp, but he went well for a wee rider and off on loan he went.  He went reasonably calm.  What I got back after 8 months was a performance pony who was on performance feed and was a bit of a live wire.  He still has his moments and with 1 rider he is an angel, but with my daughter he still makes a sharp exit and will test her.  She has electric knickers, as do I and I can turn the deadest horse into a raging psychopath.  That's is MY issue not the horses!   

Seek legal advice as it sounds like they have changed the routine for the pony far to much.  I would bet that it is stabled, well fed above what it requires and is just bursting with energy!   As for the buying it back.  Don't feel bad that you cannot.  You didn't sell it off in an instant to the first person who walked up and waved cash at you.  It was a responsible sale....but you cannot judge jsut how nutty some people are!  If I sold mine no way would I be able to buy it back.  Nor would I be taking out a loan to.  
Also what I have learnt is that a Lead Rein pony is NOT a first ridden!   The elderly one we recently had PTS was a lead rein - fab when led.  Little devil off the lead rein and would buck, run sideways and spin as he felt he had freedom.  
So if you sold as a lead rein and it is still ok on teh lead but a devil off then that is NOT your fault.  They are very different requirements.  Lead Rein don't think for themselves.


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## Alec Swan (8 August 2016)

^^^^ An all round excellent post EmmasM.  

I wonder where the OP is,  I hope that she hasn't been bullied into rescinding the contract.

Alec.


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## Ballerina (8 August 2016)

Sorry haven't replied but with some coments that the pony could be very unhappy and in a bad way upset me . I blocked her number and the girl down my yard who new owner msged on Facebook to said that a letter will be getting sent to me and that she is not allowed to send her any pics to me or contact with her anymore. So I suppose, it's a waiting game untill I receive the letter. I love the pony to bits but just can't afford to buy her back and the way the pony is acting was not and never has acting badly in my care .


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## Achinghips (8 August 2016)

fatpiggy said:



			Indeed they are - but that doesn't include telling the OP that IF she thought anything about the pony she would just buy it back.  A nice little stab in the back there.
		
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Fat piggy, try practising a little generosity of spirit in your interpretations of others motivations. People are entitled to their opinions, no one is trying to hurt the original poster, but are instead trying to help her consider from all angles. It is kind of people to do so, not devious. There is no need for you to take unnecessary offense on someone else's behalf where none is meant.


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## Mooseontheloose (8 August 2016)

As a private seller you are not subject to the Sale of Goods Act and providing you can provide evidence if required that the pony was safe and sane you are not in any way liable.
Do not offer to buy it back, come to an agreement or otherwise mollify the person.
If you hand on heart feel that you sold a sensible pony for a very small amount of money then you are not at fault. It will cost them considerably more than the cost of the pony to pursue you for the money.
Any offers to them must be made 'without prejudice' or if it ever did come to court, which I very much doubt it will, it will be considered against you.
The only thing they may do is to bring a small claims court case against you. This will still cost them yet more money.
When and if you receive the letter do not be scared by the language in it. Reply with no emotion that you are not prepared to purchase the pony;
Good luck. I'm sorry if you were genuinely fond of the pony because it's a horrible thing when things go wrong, but if you are convinced you are not at fault, I suggest you aren't and shouldn't feel guilty.


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## Ballerina (8 August 2016)

I feel sorry for the pony as as she is so sweet and loving and they convinced me she would be going to a lovely caring home, I was in no rush to sell her and even put people off is I didn't think they was a suitable home for her. I just feel that I'm stuck in a corner as they haven't shown me no proof of this behaviour but threatening me with court , new owner will do this as she is very pushy .


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## Achinghips (8 August 2016)

Ballerina said:



			I feel sorry for the pony as as she is so sweet and loving and they convinced me she would be going to a lovely caring home, I was in no rush to sell her and even put people off is I didn't think they was a suitable home for her. I just feel that I'm stuck in a corner as they haven't shown me no proof of this behaviour but threatening me with court , new owner will do this as she is very pushy .
		
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Of course you feel sorry for the pony, none of this is your fault and it's a really upsetting situation for you.  Other people can disagree, but If it were me, I would try my very best to  avoid a court case as it could be even more costly in terms of your stress and finances. I won't risk it.


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## EmmasMummy (9 August 2016)

Ballerina said:



			I feel sorry for the pony as as she is so sweet and loving and they convinced me she would be going to a lovely caring home, I was in no rush to sell her and even put people off is I didn't think they was a suitable home for her. I just feel that I'm stuck in a corner as they haven't shown me no proof of this behaviour but threatening me with court , n*ew owner will do this as she is very pushy* .
		
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There you go then.  This woman has clearly gotten through life bullying people into giving her what she wants and is now using these tactics on you.  just get legal advise, and wait it out.  also if you have anyone who can testify to the temperament of the pony get those written down/recorded just in case.  

Have a swatchy at this:  

http://www.horseandrideruk.com/article.php?id=200


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## AdorableAlice (9 August 2016)

Put the situation into perspective. 

Op is not a dealer and has no reputation to protect or uphold.  The pony was sold with a truthful advert and has a provable CV which others are able to clarify.  Assume it was vetted or the purchaser chose to proceed without vetting.  The pony has been gone for 2 months with no contact to vendor so the assumption would be all was fine.  Out of the blue the new owner decides all is not fine and contacts the vendor but refuses to provide proof that all is not fine, but insists on returning the pony and recouping the purchase price.

It is not rocket science to see what is going on.  The purchaser's child may have had a confidence issue or tumble off her new pony, or may not be interested in riding anymore, or may not like the colour of the creature etc etc.  Purchaser wants out of the pony so decides it is a bad one and gives the vendor grief.  If the purchaser was to market the pony herself suspicion would arise as to why the pony is being moved on so quickly, I would bet they haven't even updated the passport yet, potential new purchasers would automatically think there is an issue when viewing a pony that had only been in ownership a matter of weeks and was being moved on.

The quick way out is for the purchaser to create merry hell with the vendor in the hope bullying will intimidate the vendor. If I was the OP and 100% happy that I had sold a genuine, fit for purpose pony to what was thought to be an ideal home I would simply keep the sales receipt safe, perhaps speak to the BHS and tell the purchaser that all future contact is to be done in writing as I will not take threatening phone calls and then just wait to see if the purchaser wants to put her threats in writing.  Remember what is put in writing needs to be provable and the purchaser seems to be unable/unwilling to provide that proof.


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## Mince Pie (9 August 2016)

I would assume that due to the fact that the buyers have not given specific reasons as to why the pony is un suitable,  nor given the OP a chance to rectify any issues that the buyer is having will work against the buyers if it does go to court.


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## Mooseontheloose (9 August 2016)

I can speak with absolute experience having been taken to court by the purchaser of an event horse that my daughter used to compete. After six months during which time we had had no inkling that there was anything wrong, in fact the purchaser's facebook page was full of how good the horse was, he napped at the start of a one day event.
This was a reasonably high value horse sold because daughter was going off to live and work abroad.
I had a hideous year of threats, solicitors letters, refusal on purchaser's part to have any help from me or to go to mediation. I offered a 'without prejudice' amount to buy the horse back which was refused.
I discovered that our house insurance covered legal fees and the insurance company (Thank you NFU Mutual) stood by me.
The case went to court, it took six and a half hours of court time, and I produced several witnesses (and also had many witness statements legally prepared) and my daughter flew back from abroad to appear. None appeared from the other side.
The case was thrown out by the judge as I had not misrepresented the horse in any way.
It gave me excema and high blood pressure and an ulcer.
The best part was we found the horse in a dealer's yard some time later, bought him back for considerably less than I'd offered before and he is now competing with a teenager at PC and BE activities with great success.
It transpires that the same person had attempted to sue all sorts of other people and applied her bully tactics to many of them. If what you say is true your person does not have a leg to stand on.


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## JillA (9 August 2016)

Ballerina said:



			Sorry haven't replied but with some coments that the pony could be very unhappy and in a bad way upset me . I blocked her number and the girl down my yard who new owner msged on Facebook to said that a letter will be getting sent to me and that she is not allowed to send her any pics to me or contact with her anymore. So I suppose, it's a waiting game untill I receive the letter. I love the pony to bits but just can't afford to buy her back and the way the pony is acting was not and never has acting badly in my care .
		
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Not allowed by whom? Alarm bells would be seriously ringing - can you not tell us which part of the country and see if someone on here would visit and report back to you.


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## Ballerina (9 August 2016)

JillA said:



			Not allowed by whom? Alarm bells would be seriously ringing - can you not tell us which part of the country and see if someone on here would visit and report back to you.
		
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If I do this , will the new owner not use it against me if it does go to court ? I an get written evidence from the child's parents that have rode her and even from parents the children that have rode her from my school where I work . Hat annoys me is that they came and tried her with two different kids and I had jockey that rode her first,I told them everything I knew about the pony and they was happy to purchase but now they are having issues its somehow my fault and satin things like how can I put a child in danger???? Why the hell would I do that , I work at a school and have a child of my own. Like I've said this pony was with me for 4 years and backed and produced myself and never had a problem, she's only ever been in my care untill 2 months ago.they knew this so how is it my fault that the pony is acting different and needs to trust them as it sounds like she doesn't. This has put me off ever buyin. Another horse or pony and I've owned ponies/horses since I was 5 (now 31).


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## fatpiggy (9 August 2016)

Achinghips said:



			Fat piggy, try practising a little generosity of spirit in your interpretations of others motivations. People are entitled to their opinions, no one is trying to hurt the original poster, but are instead trying to help her consider from all angles. It is kind of people to do so, not devious. There is no need for you to take unnecessary offense on someone else's behalf where none is meant.
		
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The regular bitches on here could all take that advice.  I never said they were being devious. Just plain nasty to someone who is in a quandry.  So much for supporting each other through thick and thin. Thank god I don't have a horse anymore, because I heard and saw plenty of exactly the same attitudes in my own area.  But hey, that's women I suppose.


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## fatpiggy (9 August 2016)

Mooseontheloose said:



			I can speak with absolute experience having been taken to court by the purchaser of an event horse that my daughter used to compete. After six months during which time we had had no inkling that there was anything wrong, in fact the purchaser's facebook page was full of how good the horse was, he napped at the start of a one day event.
This was a reasonably high value horse sold because daughter was going off to live and work abroad.
I had a hideous year of threats, solicitors letters, refusal on purchaser's part to have any help from me or to go to mediation. I offered a 'without prejudice' amount to buy the horse back which was refused.
I discovered that our house insurance covered legal fees and the insurance company (Thank you NFU Mutual) stood by me.
The case went to court, it took six and a half hours of court time, and I produced several witnesses (and also had many witness statements legally prepared) and my daughter flew back from abroad to appear. None appeared from the other side.
The case was thrown out by the judge as I had not misrepresented the horse in any way.
It gave me excema and high blood pressure and an ulcer.
The best part was we found the horse in a dealer's yard some time later, bought him back for considerably less than I'd offered before and he is now competing with a teenager at PC and BE activities with great success.
It transpires that the same person had attempted to sue all sorts of other people and applied her bully tactics to many of them. If what you say is true your person does not have a leg to stand on.
		
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I would have been tempted to go for a no-win no-fee personal damages and counter-sue them.  Failing that a few phone calls...


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## Mooseontheloose (9 August 2016)

To be honest, by the time it was all over we were exhausted though very happy to be completely exonerated.
The cherry on the cake was getting the horse back and seeing him go to further successes with his new rider.
What was interesting was that the purchaser had gone to one of these equine lawyers who advertise in H and H. Obviously there is some sort of deal whereby they agree, for a fee, to write three increasingly aggressive and demanding letters. These I received. 
By the time the third letter came I was being sued for not only the purchase price, but the cost of the tack and the keep of the horse for six months.
This was well into five figures. However my legal advice was to sit tight. I agreed to mediation, but the purchaser wouldn't.
Just before the original court hearing the purchaser dropped the amount she was suing me for to just under the maximum amount allowed at the small claims court. It was patently obvious that she had no case and would lose and if it went to county court  she would be liable for costs. (It transpires that this is what she did in other non horse related cases).
This meant she had her day in court, her chance to say what she liked, but no opportunity for me to get my costs back. However my legal fees, which would have amounted to £12K were covered by my insurance company.
Apart from anything, it makes me mad that the court system, which is so busy, was taken up for  an entire day but this completely time wasting case.
The BHS were also extremely helpful. 
If the woman in the OP's case gets a solicitor to write a letter she will have already spent about a third of the cost of the pony. The fees wrack up very quickly. It's a horrid situation to be found in but sit tight.


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## wills_91 (9 August 2016)

What a horrible situation to be in, especially as it involves children! You've had loads of great advice already, hope it all works out well.


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## ycbm (9 August 2016)

fatpiggy said:



			I would have been tempted to go for a no-win no-fee personal damages and counter-sue them.  Failing that a few phone calls...
		
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Counter sue for what?  You have to have experienced a loss of some kind before you can sue anyone.


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## Mooseontheloose (9 August 2016)

I could have said loss of my sanity but there are plenty who'd testify to me having been bonkers for years!


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## Damnation (9 August 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Put the situation into perspective. 

Op is not a dealer and has no reputation to protect or uphold.  The pony was sold with a truthful advert and has a provable CV which others are able to clarify.  Assume it was vetted or the purchaser chose to proceed without vetting.  The pony has been gone for 2 months with no contact to vendor so the assumption would be all was fine.  Out of the blue the new owner decides all is not fine and contacts the vendor but refuses to provide proof that all is not fine, but insists on returning the pony and recouping the purchase price.

It is not rocket science to see what is going on.  The purchaser's child may have had a confidence issue or tumble off her new pony, or may not be interested in riding anymore, or may not like the colour of the creature etc etc.  Purchaser wants out of the pony so decides it is a bad one and gives the vendor grief.  If the purchaser was to market the pony herself suspicion would arise as to why the pony is being moved on so quickly, I would bet they haven't even updated the passport yet, potential new purchasers would automatically think there is an issue when viewing a pony that had only been in ownership a matter of weeks and was being moved on.

The quick way out is for the purchaser to create merry hell with the vendor in the hope bullying will intimidate the vendor. If I was the OP and 100% happy that I had sold a genuine, fit for purpose pony to what was thought to be an ideal home I would simply keep the sales receipt safe, perhaps speak to the BHS and tell the purchaser that all future contact is to be done in writing as I will not take threatening phone calls and then just wait to see if the purchaser wants to put her threats in writing.  Remember what is put in writing needs to be provable and the purchaser seems to be unable/unwilling to provide that proof.
		
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Very sound advice here.

OP - where abouts in the country are you?


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## ester (9 August 2016)

Achinghips said:



			Well, if this is the case, let's hope for the sake of this poor pony, the OP buys him back ASAP.
		
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Achinghips said:



			Fat piggy, try practising a little generosity of spirit in your interpretations of others motivations. People are entitled to their opinions, no one is trying to hurt the original poster, but are instead trying to help her consider from all angles. It is kind of people to do so, not devious. There is no need for you to take unnecessary offense on someone else's behalf where none is meant.
		
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Or you could show a little generosity in spirit towards the OP, particularly as you initially suggested it couldn't be even possible that a pony could change in 2 months! 
The OP was/is clearly very upset about the situation, I am sure in an ideal world she would like to buy the pony back but the world isn't always ideal is it. 

OP I am sorry you are having to go through this and do hope you get it sorted. The current owner has done nothing right as far as the law is concerned.


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## JDee (9 August 2016)

It would be great if you could get some written statements from people who knew the pony before it was sold and would vouch for it being safe and reliable. With those in your hand you could accuse the buyer of ruining the pony and then offer her a small sum of money to take it off her hands - if the pony is genuinely being a problem now she should be glad to sell it back to you, you'd be in control of what happened to it and with some re-schooling if necessary you could sell it again or maybe loan it out to a good home


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## Achinghips (9 August 2016)

ester said:



			Or you could show a little generosity in spirit towards the OP, particularly as you initially suggested it couldn't be even possible that a pony could change in 2 months! 
The OP was/is clearly very upset about the situation, I am sure in an ideal world she would like to buy the pony back but the world isn't always ideal is it. 

OP I am sorry you are having to go through this and do hope you get it sorted. The current owner has done nothing right as far as the law is concerned.
		
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Again an odd lack of generosity in spirit interpretation of your own, you will see I asked how that could happen as I couldn't believe i based on my own experience, not suggested it couldn't  and then accepted that it could, once I was educated by other members examples. My opinions change as I learn.  As should everyone's instead of rigidly holding to beliefs in light of new information.  Now, let's stop bickering and try and get on with helping the OP.


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## Achinghips (9 August 2016)

JDee said:



			It would be great if you could get some written statements from people who knew the pony before it was sold and would vouch for it being safe and reliable.
		
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This. I have known of a case where mutual friends of both buyer and seller were called as witnesses for the buyer and gave opinions to a non horsey judge about the original seller doing the ruining, such as by under rugging a heavy traditional cob in summer ridiculously) and not providing a salt block in the winter!


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## popsdosh (10 August 2016)

JillA said:



			Not allowed by whom? Alarm bells would be seriously ringing - can you not tell us which part of the country and see if someone on here would visit and report back to you.
		
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Why!!!!


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## popsdosh (10 August 2016)

ycbm said:



			Counter sue for what?  You have to have experienced a loss of some kind before you can sue anyone.
		
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I did sue for wasted time where somebody took action against us that was a total fabrication and got a judgement so it can be done. The courts actually treat vexatious claims very seriously and will punish claimants.


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## conniegirl (10 August 2016)

Achinghips said:



			This. I have known of a case where mutual friends of both buyer and seller were called as witnesses for the buyer and gave opinions to a non horsey judge about the original seller doing the ruining, such as by under rugging a heavy traditional cob in summer ridiculously) and not providing a salt block in the winter!
		
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Cob types rarely need rugging even in horrid winters let alone summer and not providing a salt block is hardly a welfare issue. I don't provide mine with one as he gets a balanced diet and won't touch it anyway


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## Luci07 (10 August 2016)

conniegirl said:



			Cob types rarely need rugging even in horrid winters let alone summer and not providing a salt block is hardly a welfare issue. I don't provide mine with one as he gets a balanced diet and won't touch it anyway
		
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BUT... you must remember that the vast majority of judges will know nothing about horses and this "could" sound like practical advice. You have to present your case in a manner in which the court can understand and referencing equine terms/care/knowledge doesn't often help. So if I as a layman, who sees rugs on horses, was told that x hadn't bothered to do this and it was neglect..not knowing about cobs I would believe that.


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## Mooseontheloose (10 August 2016)

I very much doubt this will ever go to court. I don't think the OP has received any solicitor's letter or anything official.


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## Ballerina (10 August 2016)

Mooseontheloose said:



			I very much doubt this will ever go to court. I don't think the OP has received any solicitor's letter or anything official.
		
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Had no letter YET!


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## conniegirl (10 August 2016)

Luci07 said:



			BUT... you must remember that the vast majority of judges will know nothing about horses and this "could" sound like practical advice. You have to present your case in a manner in which the court can understand and referencing equine terms/care/knowledge doesn't often help. So if I as a layman, who sees rugs on horses, was told that x hadn't bothered to do this and it was neglect..not knowing about cobs I would believe that.
		
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but you dont see rugs on cobs in summer? I certainly dont! It would be easy to refute by stating that a rug on a cob in summer is a welfare issue as it is likely to cause the poor horse to overheat and horses die from over heating. Would have made the "expert" look like the fool they were!


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## JDee (10 August 2016)

Achinghips said:



			This. I have known of a case where mutual friends of both buyer and seller were called as witnesses for the buyer and gave opinions to a non horsey judge about the original seller doing the ruining, such as by under rugging a heavy traditional cob in summer ridiculously) and not providing a salt block in the winter!
		
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I don't think that those things would really matter if the buyer did bring them up. What is important here is that the OP can produce reputable evidence that the pony was what she sold it as. We sold a very sensible reliable pony to someone who turned up in the middle of a howling gale to try it and she didn't put a foot wrong but after they bought her they stabled her 24/7 with little exercise and were feeding her up to the ears on all the wrong stuff to get her in 'show condition' where with us she'd lived out most of the time, was fed 'as needed' and ridden quite hard because she was more focused towards jumping and hunting than showing. She actually did behave very badly with the buyer but we had lots of evidence to support that she'd been well behaved at shows and out hunting. As luck happened we had someone wanting a pony like her for their son and they were happy with the references we were able to show them so even though she bucked him off when he viewed her at the home we'd sold her too they still bought her and she soon returned to her 'old self' again


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## Achinghips (10 August 2016)

JDee said:



			I don't think that those things would really matter if the buyer did bring them up. What is important here is that the OP can produce reputable evidence that the pony was what she sold it as. We sold a very sensible reliable pony to someone who turned up in the middle of a howling gale to try it and she didn't put a foot wrong but after they bought her they stabled her 24/7 with little exercise and were feeding her up to the ears on all the wrong stuff to get her in 'show condition' where with us she'd lived out most of the time, was fed 'as needed' and ridden quite hard because she was more focused towards jumping and hunting than showing. She actually did behave very badly with the buyer but we had lots of evidence to support that she'd been well behaved at shows and out hunting. As luck happened we had someone wanting a pony like her for their son and they were happy with the references we were able to show them so even though she bucked him off when he viewed her at the home we'd sold her too they still bought her and she soon returned to her 'old self' again
		
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Yes I know, I was agreeing with your statement that she needs to have good written evidence herself and or witnesses in case of a non horsey judge being hoodwinked 

Conniegirl, we all know you are right, the non horsey judge is the case I illustrated was hoodwinked as he was non horsey, that it the point I was making ..... In this case, there were three witnesses for the buyer saying the same thing and none to back up the seller, so the non horsey judge didn't believe the very logical point you are making


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## Mooseontheloose (11 August 2016)

I think judges must go on evidence put before them, not their own knowledge and understanding. They will also take advice from experts if required.
In the case I was involved with the judge obviously was not horsey, but asked the right questions.
It does not come down to opinion in the end, but evidence and proof that the seller broke the law in some way.
I reiterate: if the facts the OP gave us, I doubt this will go to court, and if it should by any chance go to the Small Claims Court the same rules of proof and evidence apply.
If the seller can prove the pony was safe and sane before hand, by witness statements correctly prepared and signed, possible photograps, video evidence she must meticulously gather this. OR the buyer must prove otherwise, with evidence.
I know what a horrible position this is to be in. However I don't think the OP should panic until such time as she receives a letter.
I think the number of cases actually succeeding in even coming to court, in this type of situation, is minimal, and usually involves a dealer when it's different law.
OP, having been there, feel free to query me, I'm a bloody expert on that side of the law now.


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## Ballerina (11 August 2016)

The new owner seems very forceful so I will more than likely get a letter , I have another number contact me yesterday asking if I still have the pony for sale so googled the number as ponies adverts are not online anymore and it's the bloody new owners husband !! Why are they playing games like weirdos? I can't stand the waiting game as I'm a routine person, but I just keep telling myself that the worse thing that can happen is she wins in court and I have to get a loan to pay her back , I've contacted evetyone who's children have rode this pony to please write statements and yard owner is going to too. 

Nothing else I can do really but I just keep picturing my sweet little pony being so unhappy and it makes me so angry .


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## ycbm (11 August 2016)

He is trying to find out if you have more ponies for sale to try to make out that you are a dealer so they can use the Sale of Goods Act against you. Keep the record of that call, it's harassment.


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## Mooseontheloose (11 August 2016)

Good advice. When I went to court I was able to prove that I'd sold nine horses in thirty five years. My accountant produced my accounts to prove that I got no income from the sale of horses.


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## Ballerina (11 August 2016)

ycbm said:



			He is trying to find out if you have more ponies for sale to try to make out that you are a dealer so they can use the Sale of Goods Act against you. Keep the record of that call, it's harassment.
		
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When they came to view her I made it very clear she means the world to me and on the advert I put all loan at my yard so if the pony was as dangerous and behaving that way they are saying she is and I've lied, why the hell would I offer her on full loan at my yard. I said to them to come down on a weekend so they could try her properly as they lived so far away but no they didn't want to wait and came the day I got back off holiday.


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## Ballerina (11 August 2016)

Mooseontheloose said:



			Good advice. When I went to court I was able to prove that I'd sold nine horses in thirty five years. My accountant produced my accounts to prove that I got no income from the sale of horses.
		
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This is the only pony/horse I've ever sold as before her I was out of riding for 10 years as got married and had a child. The girl who came out of a riding school, don't her first ever so on this pony and came 4th and qualified do sunshine tour and when we went to hickstead she was an angle so surly if the pony was going to mess about and behave badly it would of been when she's in a situation like hickstead.


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## ycbm (11 August 2016)

Ballerina said:



			When they came to view her I made it very clear she means the world to me and on the advert I put all loan at my yard so if the pony was as dangerous and behaving that way they are saying she is and I've lied, why the hell would I offer her on full loan at my yard. I said to them to come down on a weekend so they could try her properly as they lived so far away but no they didn't want to wait and came the day I got back off holiday.
		
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You have everything on your side in this, but you need to record it all while it's fresh in your mind, and not just on here. Good luck with this, they are very unreasonable people.


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## Goldenstar (11 August 2016)

ycbm said:



			He is trying to find out if you have more ponies for sale to try to make out that you are a dealer so they can use the Sale of Goods Act against you. Keep the record of that call, it's harassment.
		
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And you know they probably won't go away .
So continue to get organised personally I would buy him straight back if they meet the cost of returning him .
Not because of them but for him .
I would not let a much loved pony I had started be in this bad place if he's as nice as you say you will resell him.
I would also go with a witness to see him .


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## ycbm (11 August 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			And you know they probably won't go away .
So continue to get organised personally I would buy him straight back if they meet the cost of returning him .
Not because of them but for him .
I would not let a much loved pony I had started be in this bad place if he's as nice as you say you will resell him.
I would also go with a witness to see him .
		
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GS seller has said she simply doesn't have the money, she's had to spend it on other things. I don't think I'd take out a loan in that situation, myself, (assuming she could even get one) and if her credit card is maxed, what can she do?

I agree they probably aren't going to go away without at least sending some letters from a solicitor


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## Ballerina (11 August 2016)

ycbm said:



			GS seller has said she simply doesn't have the money, she's had to spend it on other things. I don't think I'd take out a loan in that situation, myself, (assuming she could even get one) and if her credit card is maxed, what can she do?

I agree they probably aren't going to go away without at least sending some letters from a solicitor  

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No I can't afford it but the new owner seems that she woulnt even be happy me paying payments to her and would want it in full. Just a waiting game now .


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## Mooseontheloose (11 August 2016)

Sit tight. Breathe. Get on with your life. A letter from them can be answered quietly, unemotionally and stating the facts. Don't get involved in any other form of negotiation with them.
The first letter will probably be very aggressive and threaten all sorts of things, but as I've said repeatedly, evidence is the only thing that will count in court.


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## Ballerina (11 August 2016)

Mooseontheloose said:



			Sit tight. Breathe. Get on with your life. A letter from them can be answered quietly, unemotionally and stating the facts. Don't get involved in any other form of negotiation with them.
The first letter will probably be very aggressive and threaten all sorts of things, but as I've said repeatedly, evidence is the only thing that will count in court.
		
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thank u


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## Alec Swan (11 August 2016)

Ballerina said:



			No I can't afford it but the new owner seems that she woulnt even be happy me paying payments to her and would want it in full. Just a waiting game now .
		
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From the above,  it would seem that you've already made the offer to take back the pony and pay by instalments,  am I right?

Alec.


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## Mooseontheloose (11 August 2016)

This needn't be taken as an admission of guilt, just concern for the pony. Don't enter into any other communication with them. At least if it gets to court you can prove you were prepared to deal with them.  The fact that they've turned down your offer won't look good.


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## Ballerina (11 August 2016)

I said to them that o didn't have all the money to buy back and they said we'll give me £600 and then she will try and sell the money to make the rest and I said no .


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## Mince Pie (11 August 2016)

Do you have witnesses to back that up? From now on do everything in writing, either letter or email. If you must speak with them take at least one person with you as a witness. You need evidence that you have tried to negotiate with them but they have been uncooperative. Also you need to be able to back everything up.


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## D66 (11 August 2016)

Ballerina said:



			I said to them that o didn't have all the money to buy back and they said we'll give me £600 and then she will try and sell the money to make the rest and I said no .
		
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This, and not giving you any evidence. makes it sound like a scam.  In your position I'd join the BHS and talk to their legal bods.


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## Alec Swan (11 August 2016)

Ballerina said:



			I said to them that o didn't have all the money to buy back and they said we'll give me £600 and then she will try and sell the money to make the rest and I said no .
		
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Progress,  sort of!  The general consensus of opinion is that you are not in any way compelled,  either morally or factually to agree to the rescindment of the contract (the sale).  If you enter in to ANY form of 'negotiation' then you're accepting that the buyer may have grounds which would allow them the point of their argument or wishes.  All Courts rather than having to decide right from wrong but would prefer negotiation and to reach resolve,  a position which you clearly don't want.

Let us imagine that you end up with the pony coming home;  have you any idea what you'll be taking back?  It would seem,  from your previous posts that you were open and honest with the buyer and that you entered in to the sale in an equally honest fashion.  Should you take back the pony,  then that is an entirely different and unconnected deal.  Should you find that the pony has been damaged and is of considerably lesser value than the animal which you sold,  will you then attempt to rescind THAT contract?  Can you be certain that you won't be buying back damaged goods?

Ballerina,  I understand that in your predicament it's your wish to do the right thing,  but just about every response on here is that you refuse the demands of the buyer.  It seems that despite the well intentioned and mostly well expressed concerns for you,  you continue to ignore the advice which you've asked for,  and though I've genuinely no intentions of being harsh,  the proffered advice,  being sound and sensible seems to be falling on deaf ears.

In the modern parlance;  The buyer doesn't have a leg to stand on,  but it seems that you'd prefer to listen to the buyer than those on here who it seems have reached a near unilateral decision.  I'm left wondering why.

Alec.

ps.  I'm not having a dig at you,  just wishing that you'd listen to those who have no axe to grind!


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## maree t (11 August 2016)

Hi , I have been following this thread and I feel so much for you . Is it worth giving a rough idea of where the pony is now . I aappreciate you cant put too much info on here . If it was near one of the members then they may well know the people involved which could give you more information via pm  . You still only have their word for it , sounds like they wat to  get some money back but then may keep the pony anyway .


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## Ballerina (11 August 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Progress,  sort of!  The general consensus of opinion is that you are not in any way compelled,  either morally or factually to agree to the rescindment of the contract (the sale).  If you enter in to ANY form of 'negotiation' then you're accepting that the buyer may have grounds which would allow them the point of their argument or wishes.  All Courts rather than having to decide right from wrong but would prefer negotiation and to reach resolve,  a position which you clearly don't want.

Let us imagine that you end up with the pony coming home;  have you any idea what you'll be taking back?  It would seem,  from your previous posts that you were open and honest with the buyer and that you entered in to the sale in an equally honest fashion.  Should you take back the pony,  then that is an entirely different and unconnected deal.  Should you find that the pony has been damaged and is of considerably lesser value than the animal which you sold,  will you then attempt to rescind THAT contract?  Can you be certain that you won't be buying back damaged goods?

Ballerina,  I understand that in your predicament it's your wish to do the right thing,  but just about every response on here is that you refuse the demands of the buyer.  It seems that despite the well intentioned and mostly well expressed concerns for you,  you continue to ignore the advice which you've asked for,  and though I've genuinely no intentions of being harsh,  the proffered advice,  being sound and sensible seems to be falling on deaf ears.

In the modern parlance;  The buyer doesn't have a leg to stand on,  but it seems that you'd prefer to listen to the buyer than those on here who it seems have reached a near unilateral decision.  I'm left wondering why.

Alec.

ps.  I'm not having a dig at you,  just wishing that you'd listen to those who have no axe to grind! 

Click to expand...

I'm not listening to the buyer as all what's happened with the buyer has been before I started this thread. I started the thread as I have no clue (do now with all this information) about what can happen in this situation. 

I'm answering people back when they've asked questions.


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## Alec Swan (11 August 2016)

Ballerina said:



			I'm not listening to the buyer as all what's happened with the buyer has been before I started this thread. .. .
		
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From your posts,  I and perhaps others assumed that the conversation with the buyer was on going.  Has there been any dialogue with the buyer and within the last 8 days?

Alec.


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## stormox (11 August 2016)

I think you should TOTALLY ignore them. Keep letters /texts in case needed in future, but dont answer them and ignore any phone calls.


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## Ballerina (11 August 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			From your posts,  I and perhaps others assumed that the conversation with the buyer was on going.  Has there been any dialogue with the buyer and within the last 8 days?

Alec.
		
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No nothing


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## Alec Swan (11 August 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			From your posts,  I and perhaps others assumed that the conversation with the buyer was on going.  Has there been any dialogue with the buyer and within the last 8 days?

Alec.
		
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Ballerina said:



			No nothing
		
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I would STRONGLY suspect that the buyer has sought legal advice and it's been broadly of the opinion which has been voiced on here.

Setting the well-being of the pony on one side for a moment,  there can only be one winner in this and it's sad but compromise is rarely the answer.  With compromise you will either partially reimburse the buyer to compensate for their unhappiness,  or you will take the pony back and reimburse the buyer in total.  In this scenario,  you are the loser and from what I read of the events,  you are certainly NOT responsible.  It also sounds as though the buyer,  as others have pointed out,  is trying it on,  or was.

Good luck,  there's no question in my mind that you're on firm ground. 

Alec.


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## EmmasMummy (11 August 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			I would STRONGLY suspect that the buyer has sought legal advice and it's been broadly of the opinion which has been voiced on here.

Setting the well-being of the pony on one side for a moment,  there can only be one winner in this and it's sad but compromise is rarely the answer.  With compromise you will either partially reimburse the buyer to compensate for their unhappiness,  or you will take the pony back and reimburse the buyer in total.  In this scenario,  you are the loser and from what I read of the events,  you are certainly NOT responsible.  It also sounds as though the buyer,  as others have pointed out,  is trying it on,  or was.

Good luck,  there's no question in my mind that you're on firm ground. 

Alec.
		
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OR, the buyer has been or is on here and has realised they are a total fruitcake and have no chance .


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## smiggy (11 August 2016)

Years ago I bought a child's pony. I paid a lot of money for him as I knew him, had seen him at his yard and at pony club and he was a lovely sensible all rounder. In 24 hrs at my yard he turned into evil pony from hell. He was a nightmare to do anything at all either in hand or ridden, even flew across the yard and attacked my dog. I spoke to previous owners straight away, tried to work through the issues but couldn't. They took him back and gave me my money back. They tried to sell him again and again he ended up being sent back. No one had done anything wrong, he was just a pony that had been with the owners for a long time and was horribly unsettled at moving anywhere.
If you had this pony for five years, it could well be the same issue. No one needs to have done anything wrong.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (12 August 2016)

smiggy said:



			Years ago I bought a child's pony. I paid a lot of money for him as I knew him, had seen him at his yard and at pony club and he was a lovely sensible all rounder. In 24 hrs at my yard he turned into evil pony from hell. He was a nightmare to do anything at all either in hand or ridden, even flew across the yard and attacked my dog. I spoke to previous owners straight away, tried to work through the issues but couldn't. They took him back and gave me my money back. They tried to sell him again and again he ended up being sent back. No one had done anything wrong, he was just a pony that had been with the owners for a long time and was horribly unsettled at moving anywhere.
If you had this pony for five years, it could well be the same issue. No one needs to have done anything wrong.
		
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this was fine for two months then they want the money back, not  the same.


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## Mooseontheloose (13 August 2016)

In the event of a private sale it will come down to the rule of caveat emptor.
Unless the vendor misrepresented the pony she has nothing to fear.


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## Ballerina (13 August 2016)

Had a letter through from a company that deal with breach of contract, can't really say to much in here but it roughly says I have to give new owner full refund and livery costs as pony was not how she was described ect. The company is for people who have car, house insurance with. Really basic letter. Have 14 days to reply. What do I reply with and roughy say in my letter ?


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## Clodagh (13 August 2016)

Go to the CAB, it will cost you money if you get it wrong. Or contact your house contents insurer, they will have a legal advice team. Do not enter in to correpsondence based on things you are told on a public gorum, free legal advice is available, take it.


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## be positive (13 August 2016)

Ballerina said:



			Had a letter through from a company that deal with breach of contract, can't really say to much in here but it roughly says I have to give new owner full refund and livery costs as pony was not how she was described ect. The company is for people who have car, house insurance with. Really basic letter. Have 14 days to reply. What do I reply with and roughy say in my letter ?
		
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This is the first step and needs to be handled carefully by you advice given on here is useful but to get it right and not add to your problems this is the time for you to get proper advice from your legal representative, I am surprised they are starting procedures and think if you get a well worded response with legal help they may back off, get the reply wrong and you risk dropping yourself in deeper. You may have done nothing wrong in selling the pony but they have decided you have so they are now in control of what happens next, go and get legal advice, use the BHS helpline if you don't have any one else but ensure the reply is very carefully worded it may be a basic letter but your reply will be evidence if it does get taken further.


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## View (13 August 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Go to the CAB, it will cost you money if you get it wrong. Or contact your house contents insurer, they will have a legal advice team. Do not enter in to correpsondence based on things you are told on a public gorum, free legal advice is available, take it.
		
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This in spades.

BHS legal helpline (if you are a member), home insurance legal cover, CAB, or one of the lawyers specialising in equine matters (several postings of a list on the forum).

Do not panic and rush into responding.

Respond when you have taken advice, and if it were me, I would prefer the reply to be sent by my lawyer.


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## Ballerina (13 August 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Go to the CAB, it will cost you money if you get it wrong. Or contact your house contents insurer, they will have a legal advice team. Do not enter in to correpsondence based on things you are told on a public gorum, free legal advice is available, take it.
		
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Ok thank u , will do this on Monday


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## Lizzie66 (13 August 2016)

Ballerina said:



			Had a letter through from a company that deal with breach of contract, can't really say to much in here but it roughly says I have to give new owner full refund and livery costs as pony was not how she was described ect. The company is for people who have car, house insurance with. Really basic letter. Have 14 days to reply. What do I reply with and roughy say in my letter ?
		
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Check your house insurance to see if you have legal cover, failing that if you are a BHS use them or go to CAB.

In the meantime collate statements from as many people as you can with regard to the ponies behaviour and temperament whilst you had it and also ensure you have a copy of the advert and the bill of sale stating sold as seen.


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## Alec Swan (13 August 2016)

Ballerina,

Contrary to popular belief,  the Courts are not about Right & Wrong,  but about Winning & Losing.  The best advice which anyone can give you,  I feel certain,  is that you don't respond to any legal letters yourself.

How much use the CAB are I wouldn't know because I have a rather jaundiced view of anything which is free,  but I'm probably wrong!  It's vital that you seek sound legal opinion and from someone who is practised in the art of 'Win or Lose'.

Just a question for others;  Does the free 30 minute advice window still operate with solicitors under the Green-form LA Scheme?

Alec.


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## Snuffles (13 August 2016)

Do not be panicked into giving the new owners what they want. Take legal advice, pretty sure if what you have said on here is correct they will not have a leg to stand on.  These letters are often sent out as a tester to see if you will be bounced into paying up


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## Exploding Chestnuts (13 August 2016)

Ballerina said:



			Had a letter through from a company that deal with breach of contract, can't really say to much in here but it roughly says I have to give new owner full refund and livery costs as pony was not how she was described ect. The company is for people who have car, house insurance with. Really basic letter. Have 14 days to reply. What do I reply with and roughy say in my letter ?
		
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Either ignore or ask for a copy of the Contract. 
You have no contract with any third party, tell them to pisshoff.
There is no breach of contract, its all rubbish.
Poor pony has probably been sold on.
You can ask for a photo with today's newspaper with pony if you want to, but to be frank, just hope he has found a nice place.
Make it clear you will take pony back, fit and sound, at their expense, and will purchase him for  £1.00 if this is agreeable,  and you can offer no other outcome.


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## AdorableAlice (13 August 2016)

Bonkers2 said:



			Ask for a copy of the Contract. 
[There is no breach of contract,its all rubbish.]
		
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and do remember the company will very likely be a no win no fee company.  Have a google of the name and reviews.  There are thousands of companies out there that 'ambulance chase' and make money doing it.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (13 August 2016)

Or refer them to the BHS , and shut up. Or refer them to Fraud Squad.
I could set up a company and send out 1000 letters demanding payment of £2000, one might send me a cheque for £2000.
Its a scam, do not feed the trolls.


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## Goldenstar (13 August 2016)

Ballerina said:



			Had a letter through from a company that deal with breach of contract, can't really say to much in here but it roughly says I have to give new owner full refund and livery costs as pony was not how she was described ect. The company is for people who have car, house insurance with. Really basic letter. Have 14 days to reply. What do I reply with and roughy say in my letter ?
		
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Check if you have cover on your house insurance if not seek legal advice from a horsey solicitor a search on here will bring up threads with names .
The BHS legal helpline will give advice if you are not a member I would consider joining you need the gold membership I think to access the legal helpine.
Don't reply to the letter without advice from a suitable lawyer - one that deals in equine cases .
Also it's time to take this Away from th forum until it's resolved .
Good luck .


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## JillA (13 August 2016)

Have you checked the credentials of said "company"? There has been no breach of contract, any first year law student would know that, so I'd ignore it. Smacks of the purchaser trying to make their complaint "official" but it has no basis in law as far as I can tell. Check up on the writer of the letter - anyone can do a posh letterhead on a laptop these days.


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## Equi (13 August 2016)

Oh know what the pony was like. So don't be afraid of these scam letters and bullying. Get your own solicitor to reply - never reply to anything yourself.


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## Mooseontheloose (14 August 2016)

As I've posted before, these letters ratchet up the claims probably three times. The only thing you can be taken to court for is misrepresentation which you are adamant you didn't do.
It's worth you joining the BHS if you haven't already so you can have their free legal advice. 
It's bully boy tactics aiming to frighten you. 
She may have sold the pony on already, as did the person who took me to court. Don't get involved in any other communication other than basic facts. CAB should give you a free visit. Good luck. Don't panic.


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## Dry Rot (14 August 2016)

My reply would be, "See you in court".

If they thought they have a good case, they'd have gone to court already.

Maybe post the name of the "company" on here? Maybe someone knows something. Just stick to the provable facts and don't say anything rude abut them!


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## Luci07 (14 August 2016)

conniegirl said:



			but you dont see rugs on cobs in summer? I certainly dont! It would be easy to refute by stating that a rug on a cob in summer is a welfare issue as it is likely to cause the poor horse to overheat and horses die from over heating. Would have made the "expert" look like the fool they were!
		
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And a layman would know what constitutes a cob because ,......


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## Roasted Chestnuts (14 August 2016)

What contract was there exactly? I don't understand where in this sale a contract has been agreed or breached. Especially when you have a signed slip of paper saying sold as seen. 

I would ask for a copy of this contract you have breached, but if you haven't already please get in touch with CAB or BHS as really this has gone on long enough IMO.


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## ycbm (14 August 2016)

Black Beastie said:



			What contract was there exactly? I don't understand where in this sale a contract has been agreed or breached. Especially when you have a signed slip of paper saying sold as seen. 

I would ask for a copy of this contract you have breached, but if you haven't already please get in touch with CAB or BHS as really this has gone on long enough IMO.
		
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This is a common misconception. A contract does not have to be in writing. The seller contracted to sell a pony. The buyer contracted to buy it. A contract was struck. Money exchanged hands. In this verbal contract, the pony has to be as described by the seller.


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## Mike007 (14 August 2016)

ycbm said:



			This is a common misconception. A contract does not have to be in writing. The seller contracted to sell a pony. The buyer contracted to buy it. A contract was struck. Money exchanged hands. In this verbal contract, the pony has to be as described by the seller.
		
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Not so. The pony does not have to be as described by the seller  in a private sale. It has to be described to the honest belief of the seller. A small but rather significant point. A dealer is required to have professional knowledge ,and therefore their description must be capable of a higher degree of proof. The definition of a car dealer is someone who sells more than 3 cars a year and I would expect the same test to be applied to a horse dealer.


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## ycbm (14 August 2016)

Talk about splitting hairs!  In this contract, the seller owned the pony and kept it for several years, having broken it in herself. Therefore, in this case, (and I did say in this contract), the honest belief of the seller is going to be exactly the same as the actual behaviour of the pony.

I take your point, but it's actually quite difficult to imagine any private sale where the owner says 'he has never cribbed/bucked/reared/whatever'  and genuinely not know that the horse/pony has done exactly that, but the new owner can find out that it has and bring a court case and lose because the owner was telling the truth as far as they knew.  It's easy to see a car gear box failing and the owner not know, but a pony rearing and bucking?


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## Mike007 (14 August 2016)

No ,its not splitting hares or even hairs . Someone said earlier that the courts are not about right or wrong ,they are about winning and loosing . I do agree ,though I have found over many years ,that the Law is not "an ass" merely those who misuse it are. I have fought some fairly bloody battles through the civil legal system (in one case ,all the way up to the master of the rolls) .My experience is that the further up the chain one goes , the saner the judges are. The best advice I can give anyone is ,no phone calls, everything by letter. Write a letter the way you would like to hear it read out in court. ( a skillful letter writer can write a letter that means one thing to the recipient and entirely another to a judge).Keep a file of all correspondence .and always try to be seen as having been reasonable (even when you arnt)


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## Dry Rot (15 August 2016)

Mike007 said:



			No ,its not splitting hares or even hairs . Someone said earlier that the courts are not about right or wrong ,they are about winning and loosing . I do agree ,though I have found over many years ,that the Law is not "an ass" merely those who misuse it are. I have fought some fairly bloody battles through the civil legal system (in one case ,all the way up to the master of the rolls) .My experience is that the further up the chain one goes , the saner the judges are. The best advice I can give anyone is ,no phone calls, everything by letter. Write a letter the way you would like to hear it read out in court. ( a skillful letter writer can write a letter that means one thing to the recipient and entirely another to a judge).Keep a file of all correspondence .and always try to be seen as having been reasonable (even when you arnt)
		
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Where's the like button?

A damned good post!


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## EQUIDAE (15 August 2016)

Do not go to citizens advice! They are not lawyers and will give advice based on their own interpretation (and won't understand anything equine). Contact a specialist equine solicitor and use the free half hour of legal advice you are entitled to. Check with your house insurance - you may be covered with them and they may cover any legal costs.


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## JillA (15 August 2016)

Citizens Advice now run Consumer Direct, which consists of people well versed in consumer law. They have always given me good advice and quoted the relevant law.


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## Lizzie66 (15 August 2016)

ycbm said:



			I take your point, but it's actually quite difficult to imagine any private sale where the owner says 'he has never cribbed/bucked/reared/whatever'  and genuinely not know that the horse/pony has done exactly that, but the new owner can find out that it has and bring a court case and lose because the owner was telling the truth as far as they knew.  It's easy to see a car gear box failing and the owner not know, but a pony rearing and bucking?
		
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But just because it bucks or rears for a new owner does not mean that it ever did this for the previous owner. Horses are not machines and horses are unpredictable, behaviour in one place can frequently be different to another.

In a sale between a dealer and a private purchaser then it would be upon the dealer to prove that the horse was as described prior to sale, whereas in a sale between two private sellers it would be upon the buyer to prove that the seller deliberately misled them. 

This is why I believe OP should gather as much evidence as she can with regard to the ponies behaviour beforehand as well as ensure she has a copy of the advert and the sales receipt. If all of these indicate that the pony was as described then there has been no breach, ideally OP should take legal advice and get them to deal with it. 
If OP has no access to free legal advice and cannot afford it, then I believe that she should write back stating that the contract was struck based on the advert (copy enclosed), the viewing, an offer and acceptance. That the receipt clearly states that the viewing was the main clause of the contract and that independent witness statements can be obtained as to the accuracy of the advert. Further state that this supports your view that the contract has not been breached, state that as a private sale you described the pony to the best of your knowledge.


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## Alec Swan (15 August 2016)

Mike007 said:



			.. . Someone said earlier that the courts are not about right or wrong ,they are about winning and loosing . I do agree ,
		
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It was me.  'Laws' are set in place to protect the populous,  speeding restrictions for instance,  but when we 'refer-back' to the Law and ask for adjudication (civil matters for instance,  or even appeal),  so we're seeking an 'opinion' and as you so rightly seem to imply,  by applying argument which will appeal to those who're charged with decision making,  so we leave aside the rights and wrongs whilst attempting to 'persuade'! 

I too have defended myself,  and it's surprising what the layman can get away with when being unfettered by protocol, they have a degree of freedom and despite the odd raised eyebrow from the bench. :wink3: 

Alec.


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## Achinghips (17 August 2016)

Any update OP?


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## Ballerina (17 August 2016)

I'm going to solicitors tomorrow .


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## Goldenstar (17 August 2016)

Ballerina said:



			I'm going to solicitors tomorrow .
		
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Good luck with it all .
Keep the details away from the forum just in case .


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## OWLIE185 (17 August 2016)

Instruct a specialist Equestrian solicitor to act for you.  Do not use a normal solicitor.


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## annunziata (17 August 2016)

Ballerina said:



			I'm going to solicitors tomorrow .
		
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good best thing to do hope it all works out for you


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## Achinghips (17 August 2016)

Good luck, you are past the point of offering to take him back now anyway, even if you had the money, as they're now asking for livery costs. Chin up,


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## HBB (17 August 2016)

Good luck OP x


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## sidsmum (17 August 2016)

Good luck.


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## Mooseontheloose (17 August 2016)

This is par for the course to up the ante with each letter. It was what was tried with me. They can't do it. It's how the solicitors work. You'll get a third letter and then probably won't hear any more from them because they haven't got a leg to stand on.


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## Alec Swan (18 August 2016)

Ballerina said:



			I'm going to solicitors tomorrow .
		
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I'd advise,  *strongly*,  that you take charge of the work which your solicitor does.  Generally,  in cases of litigation,  both solicitors will pass letters backwards and forwards,  even though both will be well aware of the eventual outcome,  whilst in the interim,  running up charges which will have the complainants wishing that they hadn't started.

Tomorrow,  and as a first step,  I'd again *strongly* recommend that you take all the evidence which you have,  ask for an opinion,  and then dependent upon the reply,  go away and think about where to go next.

Rest assured of one thing;  Giving any legal counsel free rein could well end up with a bill in excess of the sale value of the pony.  Solicitors are extant and to earn a living and it's often (generally) at the expense of the client.  Sometimes it's unavoidable,  but some times it isn't.

As everyone else,  Good LucK!

Alec.


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