# Excessive urinating - add on from hfffffffff he was scoped post



## Horsekaren (24 January 2018)

I posted yesterday - title hffffffff he was scoped.  We had what we can only put down to as a mild colic episode yesterday afternoon, very odd behavior, agitated and rearing in his stable, box walking, one kick to his belly, one attempt to poo but couldn't, when being walked he got aroused and start to slap his belly with his ding dong, yawning, not eating hay and 7 wee's in an hour  

seems ok this morning if not a little agitated.
My question is about the urination, has anyone else ever had an episode like this?  he was weeing but hadn't drunk any water in 2 hours, he had nibbled some wet hay before this started.

what could the urination be? in my previous post someone has mentioned cushings but i dont know very much about this.



he is 9 yo, gelding, cob, 15.3, good weight, fed hay and fast fibre, magnesium.
supplements tried in the last few months-
protexin gut balancer
protexin acid ease
Succeed


----------



## scats (24 January 2018)

A friends gelding once exhibited colic like symptoms and strange urination habits- peeing loads for a bit and then standing to pee but nothing coming out.   He was very distressed.  He was actually found to have a number of pretty huge smegma beans that were removed by the vet.  They were causing him a great deal of pain and distress and once removed, his symptoms stopped.

Worth a look?


----------



## Horsekaren (24 January 2018)

scats said:



			A friends gelding once exhibited colic like symptoms and strange urination habits- peeing loads for a bit and then standing to pee but nothing coming out.   He was very distressed.  He was actually found to have a number of pretty huge smegma beans that were removed by the vet.  They were causing him a great deal of pain and distress and once removed, his symptoms stopped.

Worth a look?
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, i will look into this, is this something i can look for or is it a vet who would need to spot them?  do you know what this horses symptoms were? 
did he show ulcer like symptoms ie girthyness, not wanting to be touched ect


----------



## scats (24 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			Thanks, i will look into this, is this something i can look for or is it a vet who would need to spot them?  do you know what this horses symptoms were? 
did he show ulcer like symptoms ie girthyness, not wanting to be touched ect
		
Click to expand...

If hell let you, you might be able to feel around, but to remove them they actually sedated him to get better access.

His symptoms were basically colic-like but not massively extreme at first.  It went on for a few weeks from what I remember.  Hed look a bit colicky and uncomfortable but vet would come and couldnt find anything.  Ulcers were mentioned at the time and I think plans were made to scope him.  The day it actually got discovered he was box walking, going down, grumpy (he wasnt a grumpy horse), pawing ground, weeing a lot and then seemingly trying to wee and being unable to.  It was the addition of this symptom that made the vet check his willy and these absolutely huge beans were found.  They reckoned the previous behaviour had been these forming and causing on-off discomfort and then eventually they got very big and started to interfere with his urination.


----------



## LaurenBay (24 January 2018)

what did your vet say?


----------



## Horsekaren (24 January 2018)

vet said it sounded like mild colic, didn't have a clue about the urination, nor the excitement.
they said it was unlikely gas from the scope as this was 28 hours after the scoping. Walking him about seemed to help and he regained a small appetite and poo'd so vet said keep an eye and if he gets worse call back.


----------



## live2ride (24 January 2018)

One of the ponies at polo kept having what seemed to be colic episodes, it turned out to be a severe urinary infection.


----------



## Horsekaren (24 January 2018)

live2ride said:



			One of the ponies at polo kept having what seemed to be colic episodes, it turned out to be a severe urinary infection.
		
Click to expand...

how was that tested for? was they agitated and not wanting to be touched ect?


----------



## ihatework (24 January 2018)

Try and catch a urine sample in a sterile pot and drive it into the Vets.
If that doesn&#8217;t show anything then running an ACTH test (cushings) wouldn&#8217;t hurt.
I had an interesting convo with a vet about anecdotal observations that bolshy cob behaviour reduced when cushings was treated.


----------



## Goldenstar (24 January 2018)

This horse has something serious going on .
I have been through something similar and sadly that&#8217;s horse had tumours on its small intestine when we finally got to the bottom of it in the meantime we had dealt with a myriad of problems from KS to ulcers .
On the peeing how long was it after the scoping ? Sedation can cause lots of peeing .
My horse also showed weirdness around urination at times .


----------



## TheMule (24 January 2018)

I asked on your other thread if he had had a urine sample tested?


----------



## ycbm (24 January 2018)

If other tests come up negative, try test for kidney function. Vets miss it because it's not common in horses. Mine showed colic symptoms and was cold backed and sometimes went a bit doolally when handled. . These days he'd be scoped for ulcers but his kidneys had packed in.


----------



## Horsekaren (24 January 2018)

This episode of peeing was about 30 hours after the scope, he peed during the scope under sedation and strait after.

This is the first time i have seen him wee like this. The wees are normal duration between 5 - 20 seconds When he was on dry hay he would have 3 quarters of his water bucket now he is on wet hay he has about a quarter. He is a wet horse and does wee a a lot, its hard as i dont watch him but when i bring him in he will have a wee then another in about 2 hours. He doesn't strain or struggle, he never tries to wee and fails. 

It seems as though there is so many things it could be. I guess if the ultrasound shows nothing the next step is probably to request him to go to hospital.


----------



## Horsekaren (24 January 2018)

TheMule said:



			I asked on your other thread if he had had a urine sample tested?
		
Click to expand...

no urine sample tested, this hasn't been mentioned as i didn't think anything was odd with he urinating until yesterday. I will request this.


----------



## DabDab (24 January 2018)

Bladder stones is possible, particularly when put with the abdominal pain that he has been demonstrating for some time


----------



## Horsekaren (24 January 2018)

DabDab said:



			Bladder stones is possible, particularly when put with the abdominal pain that he has been demonstrating for some time
		
Click to expand...

that is an interesting suggestion, i guess this would show on the ultra sound.


----------



## LaurenBay (24 January 2018)

OP I think in your shoes I'd book vet ASAP to do an ultra scan and urine sample.

If no diagnosis I would push for a referral to Equine hospital.


----------



## Horsekaren (24 January 2018)

LaurenBay said:



			OP I think in your shoes I'd book vet ASAP to do an ultra scan and urine sample.

If no diagnosis I would push for a referral to Equine hospital.
		
Click to expand...

scan booked for Monday morning and will request urine sample


----------



## DabDab (24 January 2018)

Have you got a sample from when he was having this episode yesterday? Generally an owner will have to do the urine sample collecting


----------



## Rowreach (24 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			It seems as though there is so many things it could be. I guess if the ultrasound shows nothing the next step is probably to request him to go to hospital.
		
Click to expand...

Honestly, with all the threads you have posted about all the issues your horse has had, if he were mine he'd have been at a decent equine hospital weeks ago.


----------



## LaurenBay (24 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			scan booked for Monday morning and will request urine sample
		
Click to expand...

Has your vet prescribed your Horse pain relief in the meantime?


----------



## Horsekaren (24 January 2018)

He isn't on pain killers as if it is bleeding or ulcers in the hind gut pains killers can make it worse. 
All i can do is have the scan and if that shows nothing i will ask for a referral. 

its all just so up and down at the moment, has been up up up for the last week and then scoping and what ever that was yesterday. 

He will likely wee in the ultrasound so i will try and take a test before or whilst there so they can see if that shows anything.


----------



## HeyMich (24 January 2018)

Write a list of everything that has been going on. As many details as you can remember, with dates and the length of time that the symptoms ran for. A very long list it may be!

Show the list to your vet. If they don't take it seriously, then call another vet/horspital and show them the list. Don't take 'no' for an answer! This horse is in pain, and I don't think hind gut ulcers is the answer - they may be a symptom, but not the root cause.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on.


----------



## stormox (24 January 2018)

Why dont you monitor him for a few days and see how he goes? I think the peeing and slight colicy episode might be something to do with the scoping. Sedation definately can make horses pee, and their penis's relaxed and dangly. Could the scope have irritated some part of him? I know  people can be sore after a tube insertion.


----------



## Horsekaren (24 January 2018)

stormox said:



			Why dont you monitor him for a few days and see how he goes? I think the peeing and slight colicy episode might be something to do with the scoping. Sedation definately can make horses pee, and their penis's relaxed and dangly. Could the scope have irritated some part of him? I know  people can be sore after a tube insertion.
		
Click to expand...

Thats my plan, will watch for four days until the ultrasound. The scope was in him for the best part of an hour all coiled round, he coughed a few time so may well have hurt him. 
just want to get to the bottom of it all.


----------



## Midlifecrisis (24 January 2018)

Just a thought..the original post mentioned the water flushing through the stomach during scoping...would think the water was absorbed and excreted normally.


----------



## HeyMich (24 January 2018)

Midlifecrisis said:



			Just a thought..the original post mentioned the water flushing through the stomach during scoping...would think the water was absorbed and excreted normally.
		
Click to expand...

The amount of fluid they use to flush during the scope is minimal, and bearing in mind the horse has to have no fluids for 8hrs before the scope, I wouldn't expect this to cause excess urination. In fact, I think my mare was quite dehydrated afterwards.


----------



## Goldenstar (24 January 2018)

Before you have him admitted you need to think about what the cost is going to be I spent well in excess of 20 k on my horse before I threw in the towel .
Get the bowel scanned you will need to repeat this several times as it&#8217;s not an exact science and you need allow for the fact the bowel moves about .
Something that could have been my horses tumors was spotted on his first bowel scan but not on his second before we never got to doing it again I decided that both he and I and my bank balance had had enough .
I had him shot by the huntsman from the local hunt and I got my friend a vet to take a look ( she never treated him ) the huntsman kindly rang me within minutes of getting back to kennels there&#8217;s was no way I could have saved him and no amount of money could have fixed him the tumors where the size of grapefruits and the bowel passed through them .
Have you had and repeated blood tests looking for acute and chronic inflammatory markers my horse had consistent acute levels raised if you tested him after an attack of pain and and never any chronic markers abnormal .
You need to test kidney and liver function impaired liver function will lead to excessive urination.
You mentain referring him but once he&#8217;s had diagnostic utrasound what you refer him for the stage would be a GA and opening up for a look notfor the faint hearted or the cost conscious .


----------



## Rowreach (24 January 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			Before you have him admitted you need to think about what the cost is going to be I spent well in excess of 20 k on my horse before I threw in the towel .
Get the bowel scanned you will need to repeat this several times as it&#8217;s not an exact science and you need allow for the fact the bowel moves about .
Something that could have been my horses tumors was spotted on his first bowel scan but not on his second before we never got to doing it again I decided that both he and I and my bank balance had had enough .
I had him shot by the huntsman from the local hunt and I got my friend a vet to take a look ( she never treated him ) the huntsman kindly rang me within minutes of getting back to kennels there&#8217;s was no way I could have saved him and no amount of money could have fixed him the tumors where the size of grapefruits and the bowel passed through them .
Have you had and repeated blood tests looking for acute and chronic inflammatory markers my horse had consistent acute levels raised if you tested him after an attack of pain and and never any chronic markers abnormal .
You need to test kidney and liver function impaired liver function will lead to excessive urination.
You mentain referring him but once he&#8217;s had diagnostic utrasound what you refer him for the stage would be a GA and opening up for a look notfor the faint hearted or the cost conscious .
		
Click to expand...

I completely agree GS that the OP should be aware of the mounting costs of veterinary treatment, but it seems to me having followed the many threads about this horse that her own vet is flailing about a bit and not accurately diagnosing the problem/s this horse has, and in the meantime the horse is clearly becoming more uncomfortable.

So if he were mine, I would be sending him to the equine hospital for rigorous testing and diagnostics, to try to establish what exactly is causing the horse to present in this way, and then making an informed decision as to how to move forward - or not.

I would be seriously unhappy to have had this much time passed and still not know what the cause was.  And I would not have been happy with a vet who, when told how the horse was presenting the other night (on top of all the existing issues), didn't want to come out and see for herself.


----------



## Goldenstar (24 January 2018)

I have to say from my experiance with my horse that you just can&#8217;t always get an answer my horse was not right for over two years .
Symptoms could have been attributed to many things he did have KS it&#8217;s possible that these where caused by him holding himself in an unnatural way to relieve discomfort but you never saw him hold himself in an odd way .
He arrived with us weakly muscled but quickly gained muscle bulk it took me six months to work out he had KS he had the op and did well very well then we started with these vague colicky bouts of pain we left no stone unturned short of a GA and opening him up for a look .
He was a lovely lovely horse and I loved him dearly but when I look back at it I don&#8217;t see what else I could have done, you don&#8217;t always win you can&#8217;t always make it right for them.
It was not until he had gone that I realised how ill and tired it had made me it was incredibly intense looking after him.


----------



## Chinchilla (24 January 2018)

This is OP's first horse, if I remember rightly, so it's worth remembering that most people don't expect - and consequently don't prepare for - anything like this; certainly not with their first. I feel quite sorry for OP to be in this situation, but agree that at this stage a hospital referral for in depth investigations would probably be the best root as the horse's quality of life, in my opinion, needs to take precedence over anything else.


----------



## Horsekaren (24 January 2018)

I know you can't always fix them and I'm sorry it didn't work out for your Horse but all I can do is try. It's only been 2-3 months of symptoms , a scope and a trail of steroids which has helped. I don't have endless amount of money.
Hopfully the scan will show something we can work on. This evening he seemed happy, let me do his feet, was munching and was covered in chippings so he was either lying or rolling.
So being two months in and not really explored I'm hoping this is all going to turn out ok.
Monday can't come soon enough.


----------



## Ellietotz (24 January 2018)

Been following your threads for some time now. I really hope you manage to solve this mystery. Would be interesting to know what it was after all this time x


----------



## Talism4n (24 January 2018)

Haven't read all of your other posts so my apologies if this has been covered. Have you had a blood test to check liver/kidney function and signs of inflammation? My boy had very similar symptoms to this and it turned out to be liver failure. I feel for you, it's heartbreaking stuff.


----------



## stormox (25 January 2018)

I think, Horsekaren, it might help if you wrote ALL the symptoms down in a list, stating when started etc. You should do this for the vet anyway and it might help people on here who havent read all the previous threads and posts you have written.


----------



## Pinkvboots (25 January 2018)

live2ride said:



			One of the ponies at polo kept having what seemed to be colic episodes, it turned out to be a severe urinary infection.
		
Click to expand...

this is also what I was thinking


----------



## Gloi (25 January 2018)

stormox said:



			I think, Horsekaren, it might help if you wrote ALL the symptoms down in a list, stating when started etc. You should do this for the vet anyway and it might help people on here who havent read all the previous threads and posts you have written.
		
Click to expand...

Very good idea. Will also help if the vet needs to refer to somewhere else.


----------



## LaurenBay (25 January 2018)

Rowreach said:



			I completely agree GS that the OP should be aware of the mounting costs of veterinary treatment, but it seems to me having followed the many threads about this horse that her own vet is flailing about a bit and not accurately diagnosing the problem/s this horse has, and in the meantime the horse is clearly becoming more uncomfortable.

So if he were mine, I would be sending him to the equine hospital for rigorous testing and diagnostics, to try to establish what exactly is causing the horse to present in this way, and then making an informed decision as to how to move forward - or not.

I would be seriously unhappy to have had this much time passed and still not know what the cause was.  And I would not have been happy with a vet who, when told how the horse was presenting the other night (on top of all the existing issues), didn't want to come out and see for herself.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely this! I would not be using more of my insurance claim on this vet. The Horse has been displaying symptoms for a very long time!


----------



## Horsekaren (25 January 2018)

Symptoms  occurring for the last 3 months
1.	Grumpy
2.	Pulls aggressive faces at his stable door
3.	Girthy &#8211; this started within two weeks of having him (saddle issue)
4.	Hates being tacked up
5.	Doesn&#8217;t want to be touched (anywhere but especially flacks backwards) &#8211; this has got worse in the last month
6.	Up and down appetite, some nights he leaves most of his hay
7.	Kicking at rugs &#8211; last month
8.	Kicking when picking back feet &#8211; last 2 weeks
9.	Hot and sweaty un-rugged in stable if above 6 degrees &#8211; might just be coat
10.	Urinates a lot (7 times in 1 hour when possibly having a mild colic attach)
a.	During this episode he was walking oddly on his back right leg
b.	He is a wet horse, doesn&#8217;t seem to struggle to wee and they don&#8217;t seem to be short (always done this, the above 7 times is a one off)
11.	Hangs his willy out a lot &#8211; always has
12.	Inconsistent drinking &#8211; sometimes empty in morning sometimes hardly touched-  changed from dry to wet hay so this may be a factor
13.	Sometimes swishes tail when being lead and stamps back leg to kick belly
14.	Some mornings he is desperate to roll / this coincides with number 13
15.	Inconsistent poos, some nights 8 some nights 2
16.	Sometimes agitated
17.	Loses balance when dozing- on and off
18.	Switches off and almost goes unconscious when being girthed occasionally, or in times of stress, have seen this about 4 times 
19.	Seems to itch a specific area at the back of his flanks, hip joint a lot during the night
20.	Some days he just stands at his stable with his ears back like he is in pain
21.	Biting -last month
22.	Yawning- last 2 months
23.	He seems to shift his weight a lot, not sure if more than a normal horse. 
24.	He stamps his back legs on the floor but I presume this is because of his feathers itching. 
25.	He rubs his bum on the walls, itching his tail. Doesn&#8217;t have worms 

It adds up to a lot but I have to mention this is our first winter, this started not long after the change in routine. 
He has had bloods that show inflammation somewhere. To coincide with the above he also had a cough was treated with steroids and anti B&#8217;s which helped. 

Scoped - no ulcers, slight pinkness at opening of small intestine
No worms
slightly positive Succeed test for blood in hind gut

Since the steroids and balancers the bloods results have shown an improvement, he isn&#8217;t quite as miserable, i.e. you can stand with him at his stable door and he won&#8217;t tell you to go all the time.  Since the steroids began he seems to feel much better under the saddle (not that he has ever been bad) he just felt relaxed and nicely forward (I have stopped riding now until I have the scan)   He appears to stop lying down so we wondered if the wobbliness was due to sleep deprivation but seems to lay down most nights as he is covered in chippings. 

The above list seems vast but keep in mind, these arn't every day and constant. The only constant symptom that doesn't change is - don't touch my flanks and saddle. The rest are all things I have noticed but I am watching and analysing everything. 

I am going to try and upload a video of this tummy after the other nights episode.


----------



## Horsekaren (25 January 2018)

[video=youtube;-UXSkKY84oQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UXSkKY84oQ[/video]

This video was taken after he has been walked for 20 minutes during his episode. thoughts?


----------



## Rowreach (25 January 2018)

I know exactly what springs to mind reading your list and seeing that video but I'm not a vet and won't comment other than to say again, hospital asap.

I'm also not going to say what I think of your vet.


----------



## ponyparty (25 January 2018)

I've nothing useful to contribute other than to say I really hope you get to the bottom of this soon and that the outcome is positive. Rooting for you and your horse - what a nightmare to have all this trouble with your first horse. I really feel for you.


----------



## Horsekaren (25 January 2018)

Thanks, i don't want to be frightened with scare mongering or worst case scenarios. I know the list is long. The weeing is concerning but this was the day after the scope and he has never had an episode like this before. . 

This morning and yesterday evening he was perfectly fine as he has done since before the scoping... again only constant is don't touch my belly. 

His bloods are being taken monthly so if anything was super high or super low we would know. His temp is normal so unlikely to be an infection.

I suppose i'm just trying to fine one person that has had the exact same symptoms but seems impossible. 

I cannot stress enough though, he is my first so everything is a huge deal, ive been told he isn't the type and he is taking the mick but since the other night opinions have changed. Its hard as 95% of the time he is behaving perfectly normal, happy out, happy in ect


----------



## LaurenBay (25 January 2018)

Your Horse is not taking the mick. He is screaming at you for help. Your vet needs to get his a**e in gear and either admit he doesn't know what the issue is and refer you to an equine hospital or come and see you more often and not make you wait so long for appointments. Bloods taken once a month is absurd!. It is not fair on your Horse who has been suffering for 3 months to keep waiting around for this vet. 

Get your Horse to equine hospital immediately and find out what the issue is so your Horse can be helped!


----------



## Leo Walker (25 January 2018)

You arent going to find the answers online. Every picture I see of this horse screams pain and your posts back this up. Your vet seems awful sadly. You are now at the point were he needs to go to a specialist hospital for a work up. They can scan there if they want to. Hes been left too long with all this going on.


----------



## FestiveFuzz (25 January 2018)

LaurenBay said:



			Your Horse is not taking the mick. He is screaming at you for help. Your vet needs to get his a**e in gear and either admit he doesn't know what the issue is and refer you to an equine hospital or come and see you more often and not make you wait so long for appointments. Bloods taken once a month is absurd!. It is not fair on your Horse who has been suffering for 3 months to keep waiting around for this vet. 

Get your Horse to equine hospital immediately and find out what the issue is so your Horse can be helped!
		
Click to expand...

Echo this. I know it's hard to know what "normal" is with a new horse, especially when it's your first, but none of this is normal. 3 months is way too long to still be taking stabs in the dark whilst your boy still suffers, particularly when it'll be using up precious insurance money and claim time. At this point I'd be either asking for a referral to an equine hospital or getting a second opinion rather than waiting around for weeks on end for your current vet to pull their finger out.


----------



## Rowreach (25 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			I cannot stress enough though, he is my first so everything is a huge deal, ive been told he isn't the type and he is taking the mick but since the other night opinions have changed. Its hard as 95% of the time he is behaving perfectly normal, happy out, happy in ect
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry and I feel for you, I really do, but you have been posting on here for months and people with a lot of experience have been telling you that your horse needs proper diagnostics, which you clearly aren't getting from your vet, and still you keep coming back and getting the same comments.  

It doesn't matter if he looks a bit better today, he is NOT better.

As GS has said in a previous post, sometimes you never get to the bottom of what is wrong, but your vet certainly never will and your horse needs to be seen by a specialist.  And then you can take it from there.


----------



## Goldenstar (25 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			[video=youtube;-UXSkKY84oQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UXSkKY84oQ[/video]

This video was taken after he has been walked for 20 minutes during his episode. thoughts?
		
Click to expand...

Thoughts very sick horse get it refferred and take desision asap .
You need to seriously consider the cost implications of the various routes forward and talk frankly with the vets before they charge you 10k to tell you to shoot the horse .
This is really tough stuff but you are where you are and you have to get through somehow .


----------



## Goldenstar (25 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			[video=youtube;-UXSkKY84oQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UXSkKY84oQ[/video]

This video was taken after he has been walked for 20 minutes during his episode. thoughts?
		
Click to expand...

Thoughts very sick horse get it refferred and take desision asap .
You need to seriously consider the cost implications of the various routes forward and talk frankly with the vets before they charge you 10k to tell you to shoot the horse .
This is really tough stuff but you are where you are and you have to get through somehow .
Ps your is grey the vet ought to have been considering melanomas long ago.


----------



## ester (25 January 2018)

He's not grey, he is red sabino (type)


----------



## Sandstone1 (25 January 2018)

Get your vet to refer you to equine hospital now.  Or change your vet because there is something serious going on and if you delay you may regret it


----------



## Rowreach (25 January 2018)

ester said:



			He's not grey, he is red sabino (type)
		
Click to expand...

Rare in non-greys but tend to be more aggressive if they are present.


----------



## Horsekaren (25 January 2018)

Rowreach said:



			Rare in non-greys but tend to be more aggressive if they are present.
		
Click to expand...

Hi, sorry i know you're not a vet and are speculating but what are you speculating about?


----------



## Leo Walker (25 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			Hi, sorry i know you're not a vet and are speculating but what are you speculating about?
		
Click to expand...

The specifics dont matter. I think what almost everyone is speculating about is something catastrophic that is causing your horse a lot of pain and almost certainly isnt going to end well.


----------



## SEL (25 January 2018)

Have you shown that video to your vet? 

It was videoing behaviour and insisting that a vet saw it (dropbox upload) that actually got me taken seriously with my "she's just having you on" mare. Whenever the vet came out adrenaline would take over and her symptoms were masked. Once I was able to video what was going on the vet took me seriously.


----------



## Horsekaren (25 January 2018)

if everyone is thinking the same thing then can someone please say so i can ask to my vet about it. For all we know its already been ruled out. You cant just that you all think its something catastrophic and not say what you are thinking that's not fare!


----------



## cobgoblin (25 January 2018)

Renal colic? Possibly passed the stone into bladder with ittermittent urinary obstruction?


----------



## SEL (25 January 2018)

I'm not thinking anything - but I would like your vet to see that video because that isn't 'normal' behaviour. 

Lots of people will have different thoughts based on horse they have come across in the past, but the vast majority of us aren't vets and will just be guessing. Its unfair on you to share those guesses because 1) they might scare you witless and 2) if your vet has ruled it out then it might stop you going back to the vet.

BUT - there is something not right and your vet needs to get their backside in gear and they need to see that video.


----------



## Goldenstar (25 January 2018)

You need to get the horse to diagnostic centre of excellence and then take it from there .
This is not something that can wait you need to crack on and get hopefully an answer you need the support of specialist vets while you go through this process .
This is way beyond Internet advice .
Speak to your vet and make arrangements to move things forward with specialist input .
Every thing you find out your horse does not have makes this more likely to be potentially catastrophic.
You need to control his pain while you take a desision my horse did well on fynadyne


----------



## Rowreach (25 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			if everyone is thinking the same thing then can someone please say so i can ask to my vet about it. For all we know its already been ruled out. You cant just that you all think its something catastrophic and not say what you are thinking that's not fare!
		
Click to expand...

I have replied to your PM and have told you that I will not speculate because it would only further confuse you with all the responses you have been getting, and in any event I may be wrong.

And it doesn't matter if what some of us are thinking has already been ruled out, you still don't know what is actually wrong with the horse and you certainly won't find out by posting on here.

Sorry, I do feel for you and I hate sounding harsh, but your horse needs to be seen at an equine hospital by a proper equine vet with proper diagnostic tools to hand.

He is a seriously unwell horse.


----------



## ester (25 January 2018)

Rowreach said:



			Rare in non-greys but tend to be more aggressive if they are present.
		
Click to expand...

Oh absolutely, but you know me and correct info. 
OP ask for a referral ASAP there is no point in us all speculating just from what we have come across. A scan next week may or may not show anything, but if it does it might not be the actual problem. It needs someone experienced in internal medicine looking at him and will be a much better spend of your insurance money.


----------



## mcgreggor (25 January 2018)

Internal melanoma/ tumour? Is there a correlation between the inconsistent eating/drinking and the pain indicators/rolling in the morning (ie I would expect increased pain indicators/rolling after a night where he has eaten his full ration). The dozing off be a side effect of not getting proper REM sleep due to the constant low level pain.

My father had an intestinal tumour written off by our useless doctor for years as indigestion; it got so bad that he would be doubled up in pain, sweating, on all fours trying to get comfortable whilst the ambulance was called yet again, he couldn't sleep and eating made it worse and he just couldn't bring himself to eat until absolutely necessary (so very sporadic). He ended up seeing a specialist, and having a section of intestine removed. Obviously i'm not in a position to diagnose, merely drawing similarities here. If the horse was mine I would want a new vet and a referral to a vet hospital. Just because someone is qualified doesn't mean they are competent.


----------



## LaurenBay (25 January 2018)

I can't and won't guess to what is going on.

But below are the facts:

Your Horse has been in pain for 3 months (possibly longer)
You have had a vet out over this time and they are still unable to pinpoint the problem
You are using up your insurance claim time and money waiting for a prognosis
Your Horse meanwhile is still very much in pain

Give up on your vet and insist your Horse go to a proper equine hospital for a full workup. Get the diagnosis and go from there. 

I feel for you OP, I have retired my first Horse as I had so many issues with her. Its not fair but its life. Please please listen to the members on here and get your Horse some help ASAP.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (25 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			I cannot stress enough though, he is my first so everything is a huge deal, ive been told he isn't the type and he is taking the mick but since the other night opinions have changed. Its hard as 95% of the time he is behaving perfectly normal, happy out, happy in ect
		
Click to expand...

Unless you were told this by the vet, take no notice.   If it was the vet, change vets immediately.  This horse needs some proper diagnostics done at an equine specialist hospital imo.  It is difficult because he is your first horse and you haven't had him long but he is trying, with the symptoms you list,  to tell you that he is in pain for some reason.  Your job is to find the right person to interpret what he is telling you.  A good vet will do that.

Horses, as prey animals, are very good at hiding their illnesses for 95% of the time, as in the wild illness makes them vulnerable.


----------



## FestiveFuzz (25 January 2018)

OP apologies if you've mentioned it in one of your previous threads but where are you based? If you're local I'd be happy to come hand-hold/help interpret the vet speak for you. I had a hellish time with a new horse last year and know first hand how hard it is to take things in when you're already stressed/upset. My OH was invaluable in helping decipher vet feedback/next steps throughout an incredibly upsetting and tumultuous process purely because he was one step removed from it all and was therefore able to ask the right questions, whereas most of the time I was struggling not to break down in tears. I'm sure you're already surrounded by people in RL that can support in this way, but if not the offer is there.


----------



## Horsekaren (25 January 2018)

i have written every symptom down and sent the video to the vet.
he will have his ultrasound and see if anything flares up, there maybe some other tests we can do whilst there on Monday. If we are not any nearer to having a definite cause i will ask about a referral for tests.
Because he seems to hide his symptoms when the vet is there i am going to try and grab some more videos to take with us.  
i know i'm asking for trouble looking for answers on here but i just like to have an idea of possibilities. I feel at the moment his symptoms are so varied and vast it could literally be anything from a smeg bean to cancer. Its just the Succeed test that has narrowed it down to an area. I will ask for a second one of these too! 

Thanks for everyones in put. I will have the scan and then take it from there. If we are still moving forward blindly i will ask about referrals for tests.


----------



## ester (25 January 2018)

It is the very variation and vastness of his symptoms that means a referral is being suggested to an expert in internal medicine.

Please do not think that the succeed test has narrowed it down at all, they are not considered a great test anyway and as I said even if there is something going on there it may well not be the whole story. I hope he remains ok until Monday.


----------



## Horsekaren (25 January 2018)

FestiveFuzz said:



			OP apologies if you've mentioned it in one of your previous threads but where are you based? If you're local I'd be happy to come hand-hold/help interpret the vet speak for you. I had a hellish time with a new horse last year and know first hand how hard it is to take things in when you're already stressed/upset. My OH was invaluable in helping decipher vet feedback/next steps throughout an incredibly upsetting and tumultuous process purely because he was one step removed from it all and was therefore able to ask the right questions, whereas most of the time I was struggling not to break down in tears. I'm sure you're already surrounded by people in RL that can support in this way, but if not the offer is there.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you that is really kind, but i take my partner with me, nothing has seemed to be too serious that i'm in tears just yet.  The vets only ever have positive news so i feel happier when they come, its only after when things don't improve of something else crops up i worry again As i have said before with the blood results the vets arn't overly concerned  (both vets have seen him)as everything is normal apart from what ever it is that shows inflammation which is slightly high and has been coming down since steroids. 

The bloods seem to get better each time which doesn't help my cause when i try and explain what he is doing.  i suppose a lot of this has started since the steroids started so they might even be part of the problem :/  The same with his episode the day after the scope which i pushed for, that may have aggravated his stomach and caused his upset  as he has never shown any behavior like that before. It could just be so many things!

roll on Monday


----------



## HeyMich (25 January 2018)

ester said:



			Please do not think that the succeed test has narrowed it down at all, they are not considered a great test anyway and as I said even if there is something going on there it may well not be the whole story.
		
Click to expand...

I totally agree with this.

Traces of blood for hind gut ulcers is terribly misleading.  My vet told me just the other day that the gut system is so long an complex that there are bound to be traces of blood for one reason or another.  In my opinion, any indicators of ulcers in your horse (stomach or hind gut) are purely a symptom of pain, and the route cause of pain is likely to be elsewhere. 

2nd vet opinion or vet hosp strongly recommended!


----------



## HeyMich (25 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			roll on Monday
		
Click to expand...

Monday is still 4 days away! Please call your vet (or another one!) in the meantime if ANYTHING changes.


----------



## LaurenBay (25 January 2018)

Monday is a long time to wait for a Horse in pain. I really hope he doesn't get colicky again in the meantime, if he does then please insist your vet see him.


----------



## Rowreach (25 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			The vets only ever have positive news so i feel happier when they come, its only after when things don't improve of something else crops up i worry again As i have said before with the blood results the vets arn't overly concerned  (both vets have seen him)as everything is normal apart from what ever it is that shows inflammation which is slightly high and has been coming down since steroids. 


roll on Monday
		
Click to expand...

There is nothing "normal" about the range of symptoms he is presenting.  I would not be waiting till Monday.


----------



## ester (25 January 2018)

Quite, if the vets only have positive news on this horse then I wonder if they are just really keen to reassure you, given his symptoms even if his bloods were entirely normal I would be concerned, as bloods are only a small part of a very big picture. 

If it were just the urination straining it might be a bean, realistically with all those symptoms the chances of it being just that are slim to nil. Frankly his initial presentation was odd, and didn't directly point to anything and all of the follow up symptoms have followed the same ilk. Right now he is a puzzle to be solved and you need someone good at puzzles.


----------



## jgmbng (25 January 2018)

Do you soak his hay ? Mine can tolerate only soaked hay, unsoaked he has all the colic type symptoms. He is sensitive to most processed feeds but can have Alfalfa as its low in sugar and starch. 
Could you cut everything back and start with soaked hay only ?


----------



## Horsekaren (25 January 2018)

ester said:



			Quite, if the vets only have positive news on this horse then I wonder if they are just really keen to reassure you, given his symptoms even if his bloods were entirely normal I would be concerned, as bloods are only a small part of a very big picture. 

If it were just the urination straining it might be a bean, realistically with all those symptoms the chances of it being just that are slim to nil. Frankly his initial presentation was odd, and didn't directly point to anything and all of the follow up symptoms have followed the same ilk. Right now he is a puzzle to be solved and you need someone good at puzzles.
		
Click to expand...

i don't think they are really trying to reassure me, well it doesn't feel that way... if they are they arn't trying very hard. I cant lie to them either, they ask how he is doing and i have to be honest and say he seems happier because he isnt as bad as he was. 

Every time they come all vitals are normal and its just the one blood part that is high. He isnt making it easy for any of us, including the vet.  Of course if anything changes i will call the vet. 
I dont really even know if the other day was colicky  he was so pent up in his stable, rearing, spinning, barging the door and weeing. He stomped at his belly once and he appeared to try and poo but couldn't (vet said this could be gas from the scope)  he has pood in his stable no more than 1 hour earlier and poo'd again two hours after i had the call. He was in alone but usually comes in first so i don't know if something scared him. To me its seems odd that this was after the scope, maybe it was gass and the wee's were nervous wee's. The arousal of his willy when being walked around too was odd. But saying that we have never seen him colic so maybe that is normal for him :/ 
The fact he was starved for the scope im sure must cause issues in its self as everything has to start working again.
I have only ever seen him so pent up in his stable once and that was stress as he has just moved stables and both his stable neighbors walked out the yard for a hack. 

Honestly i think i needed to train to be a vet before i brought this horse. He is so special and kind but he sure isnt an easy first horse... he is in so many ways but in others he is so hard   I cant give up on him and im trying my best to help him. I appreciate all of the advise, list made, videos at the ready and will be a lot more pushy with the vet if we dont get anywhere


----------



## Horsekaren (25 January 2018)

jgmbng said:



			Do you soak his hay ? Mine can tolerate only soaked hay, unsoaked he has all the colic type symptoms. He is sensitive to most processed feeds but can have Alfalfa as its low in sugar and starch. 
Could you cut everything back and start with soaked hay only ?
		
Click to expand...

His feeds have always been simple-
He is on soaked Hay - adlib

I would remove feed but i need to get sterroids in him so he has to have a feed. 
This is just fast fiber, magnesium and Protexin Gut balancer. 

I have taken him off Acid ease since Monday and i have removed the grass pellets. 

During his episode i had removed the magnesium from his diet slowly, so this may have been a contributor as its known for calming.


----------



## Goldenstar (25 January 2018)

The thing not finding anything when you scope do blood test etc is not a good thing when the horse is still not right .
It means  you are running out of things it&#8217;s not only leaving a lot of very nasty things it might be.


----------



## LaurenBay (25 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			Honestly i think i needed to train to be a vet before i brought this horse. He is so special and kind but he sure isnt an easy first horse... he is in so many ways but in others he is so hard   I cant give up on him and im trying my best to help him. I appreciate all of the advise, list made, videos at the ready and will be a lot more pushy with the vet if we dont get anywhere
		
Click to expand...

I do have sympathy for you OP. As I said previously I had loads of issues with my mare and she was my first Horse. I waited for years and years for my very own Horse and saved every penny I could. She was everything I could have dreamed of but had soundness issues from the get go and one thing after another. I retired her last year age 12. She owes me nothing so will be with me as a glorified lawn mower til the end of her days. So I get where you are coming from. It is also very hard to be firm with vets as we have no choice but to place our trust in them as that is what are are there for and we know no better, however I have learnt over the past 6 years to go with a gut instinct and I am not afraid of ruffling feathers now and getting a second opinion if needs be.


----------



## ester (25 January 2018)

I think it depends what you define colic, intestinal pain or abdominal pain which could well be coming from somewhere else. He wasn't classically intestinally colicy but he was clearly very uncomfortable. I think it highly unlikely the wees were a result of nerves with everything else that has gone on with him.

have your vets seen that video?


----------



## Horsekaren (25 January 2018)

ester said:



			I think it depends what you define colic, intestinal pain or abdominal pain which could well be coming from somewhere else. He wasn't classically intestinally colicy but he was clearly very uncomfortable. I think it highly unlikely the wees were a result of nerves with everything else that has gone on with him.

have your vets seen that video?
		
Click to expand...

yes, i have sent to my vet and the emergency vet i called at the time and both said it could be gass passing from the scope and as he had started eating, pooing and calmed down they wasn't too concerned.
He stopped that after about 20 mins and then snoozed standing up in his stable :/


----------



## jgmbng (25 January 2018)

Fast fibre doesn't agree with mine. Is it possible it is too high in sugar/starch for your pony, or that he has an intolerance to one of the other ingredients ?.
Its horrible when you aren't able to find out what's wrong, and despite months of investigations it is only through my own research and experimenting that I have managed to get my pony comfortable.
I hope you get to the bottom of your horses problems.


----------



## ester (25 January 2018)

FF has a combined sugar starch of 7.5%, it is about the lowest you can get in a feed!?


----------



## Horsekaren (25 January 2018)

I wonder about feed as this is another thing that has increased in winter. Summer he just had a handful once a day for his magnesium. Now he has almost two scoops a day pumped filled with steroids and balancers. 
I don't like messing about with feed but it has crossed by mind if this possibly isn't agreeing with him. But tbh I'm scared to change anything at the moment


----------



## Horsekaren (25 January 2018)

jgmbng said:



			Fast fibre doesn't agree with mine. Is it possible it is too high in sugar/starch for your pony, or that he has an intolerance to one of the other ingredients ?.
Its horrible when you aren't able to find out what's wrong, and despite months of investigations it is only through my own research and experimenting that I have managed to get my pony comfortable.
I hope you get to the bottom of your horses problems.
		
Click to expand...

 What signs was your pony showing that they feed wasn't agreeing with them? X


----------



## Leo Walker (25 January 2018)

You need to forget about the succeed test for now. That is not the answer. Mine had hind gut issues when I got him. It was secondary to fairly nasty pain elsewhere. We removed the pain, tweaked his diet and it cleared up very quickly. He certainly wasnt exhibiting anything like the issues yours is either. There was also a very definite and short dated end point set on trying to resolve it.  The next step was a vet workup. Mine went out showing and won reserve champion and was being schooled five times a week improving every time while this was going on. His only symptoms were not moving straight behind, bouts of grumpiness and not being keen on his legs being handled. He would still of being going in if it hadnt been resolved quickly because I knew he wasnt right. If he had at any point started behaving like yours is then he would have gone in immediately.


----------



## Leo Walker (25 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			What signs was your pony showing that they feed wasn't agreeing with them? X
		
Click to expand...

This is definitely not a feed issue. Please stop grasping at straws and get this pony looked at by a competent vet who is working with you to find the problem.


----------



## ester (25 January 2018)

I agree, and as for symstoms I would be very surprised if a horse whose feed wasnt agreeing with them was falling asleep when standing as a result. There is nothing you are feeding that is likely to cause that sort of extreme reaction (and many of the other symptoms you have described).


----------



## jgmbng (25 January 2018)

ester said:



			FF has a combined sugar starch of 7.5%, it is about the lowest you can get in a feed!?
		
Click to expand...

It is but I remember reading on here about a PSSM pony also being reactive to FF.
Just trying to help like everyone else.


----------



## jgmbng (25 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			What signs was your pony showing that they feed wasn't agreeing with them? X
		
Click to expand...

He shows many of the symptoms that you have listed.


----------



## ester (25 January 2018)

Did he lose balance when sleeping on the yard?
was he urinating excessively?

A lot of things could be responsible for most of the symptoms on the list, but I am really struggling to see a feed intolerance causing either of those two.

A PSSM horse may have been reactive to FF but if they were it wasn't because of the sugar and starch content.


----------



## Rowreach (25 January 2018)

OP I hope you get your horse the help he needs, but I am leaving this thread now.  I have said it before, there are some hugely knowledgeable people on HHO who have given you their opinions, repeatedly.  They are all basically telling you the same thing.  You are choosing to ignore the good advice and you are not able to differentiate it from the duff stuff.

There are rather more people on HHO who don't have such a depth and breadth of knowledge, and while nobody can diagnose a horse on a forum, I don't believe that some of the suggestions being made are doing anything other than muddy the waters.


----------



## jgmbng (25 January 2018)

ester said:



			Did he lose balance when sleeping on the yard?
was he urinating excessively?

A lot of things could be responsible for most of the symptoms on the list, but I am really struggling to see a feed intolerance causing either of those two.

A PSSM horse may have been reactive to FF but if they were it wasn't because of the sugar and starch content.
		
Click to expand...

Time to bow out and leave it to the experts.
Hope you get to the bottom of it OP.


----------



## sunshine100* (25 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			I posted yesterday - title hffffffff he was scoped.  We had what we can only put down to as a mild colic episode yesterday afternoon, very odd behavior, agitated and rearing in his stable, box walking, one kick to his belly, one attempt to poo but couldn't, when being walked he got aroused and start to slap his belly with his ding dong, yawning, not eating hay and 7 wee's in an hour  

seems ok this morning if not a little agitated.
My question is about the urination, has anyone else ever had an episode like this?  he was weeing but hadn't drunk any water in 2 hours, he had nibbled some wet hay before this started.

what could the urination be? in my previous post someone has mentioned cushings but i dont know very much about this.



he is 9 yo, gelding, cob, 15.3, good weight, fed hay and fast fibre, magnesium.
supplements tried in the last few months-
protexin gut balancer
protexin acid ease
Succeed
		
Click to expand...

I really do not understand you?? plse get another vet to your horse NOW! OR you will be dealing with a horse dying a sad death because he was not listened to!! is it money? is that the issue why you will not sort this poor horse out?


----------



## Sandstone1 (25 January 2018)

I'm sorry but you need to change vets asap.   It seems to me that all you are doing is running up vets bills and using up insurance with no answers.
If I were you Id get him referred now before You run out of Insurance.
I fear this will not end well if you don't act now.


----------



## Horsekaren (25 January 2018)

Hffffffttttt 

Well this is utterly depressing.

I'm out of HH for a while, no one can help I need to sort and my panicky post just makes everything worse .... especially when I am listening!

Thanks all


----------



## nikicb (25 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			Hffffffttttt 

Well this is utterly depressing.

I'm out of HH for a while, no one can help I need to sort and my panicky post just makes everything worse .... especially when I am listening!

Thanks all
		
Click to expand...

I haven't responded to this thread previously but have followed it and your previous ones.  You may be listening, but I'm not sure you are hearing.  I really hope your horse is ok.  Perhaps if you can provide some location, someone can recommend a local vet hospital.  If he were mine, he would be in there until they could tell me what's wrong.  Please come back on Monday to update us.  x


----------



## AdorableAlice (25 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			Hffffffttttt 

Well this is utterly depressing.

I'm out of HH for a while, no one can help I need to sort and my panicky post just makes everything worse .... especially when I am listening!

Thanks all
		
Click to expand...

OP, the kindest thing everyone on here can do is not respond to your many threads and questions.  The many answers are fuelling your anxiety and delaying obtaining the correct methods of care your pony needs.

There are numerous equine hospital centres of excellence across the country.  If you are in middle England I can recommend the Three Counties Hospital.  All you need to do is remember you are the owner of the horse and the client, simply speak to the senior partner of your practice, express you concern and ask them to contact the relevant hospital.  Hopefully all will be well for you and the pony.


----------



## DabDab (25 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			Hffffffttttt 

Well this is utterly depressing.

I'm out of HH for a while, no one can help I need to sort and my panicky post just makes everything worse .... especially when I am listening!

Thanks all
		
Click to expand...

Your post isn't panicky, you are listing seriously concerning symptoms and have posted a video of a horse in immense pain as its gut was spasming. This is not OK, your horse is not OK, but there is very little anyone can say of any use other than to get the vet back out ASAP, and if they won't come then get another one.


----------



## Goldenstar (25 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			Hffffffttttt 

Well this is utterly depressing.

I'm out of HH for a while, no one can help I need to sort and my panicky post just makes everything worse .... especially when I am listening!

Thanks all
		
Click to expand...

Well of course it&#8217;s utterly depressing how could it be anything else .


----------



## {97702} (26 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			Hffffffttttt 

Well this is utterly depressing.

I'm out of HH for a while, no one can help I need to sort and my panicky post just makes everything worse .... especially when I am listening!

Thanks all
		
Click to expand...

You are not listening, and people ARE helping - you are simply ignoring them. I have lost count of how many times people have told you to get your horse referred on this thread alone, yet you appear to blank that time and time again.  

You have a horse that has been in significant pain over an extended period of time - regardless of whether you are inexperienced and whether this is your first horse, that is clearly totally unacceptable by anyones standards.  

I will no doubt get slammed now for being too direct and harsh, but I hope for your horses sake that this gives you the clarity you need about what to do next, and NOW.


----------



## Circe (26 January 2018)

OP, I think people are concerned for you. You are running up vet bills and running out of insurance with this vet that isn't doing the best for you or your horse. 
Most of all, you are describing a horse that is in pain, and very unwell, and you are responsible for making sure he doesn't suffer.
Please do not wait until monday to get a different vet to see your horse, its really not fair to him.
I do hope everything works out for you, but I think the best chance of a  good outcome is for him to be referred to a specialist equine hospital.
Kx


----------



## Sandstone1 (26 January 2018)

I fear it's a waste of time replying as Op can't seem to understand that her vets doing her no favours by dragging this out.
She needs to get this horse refered and stop wasting time and money.  The poor horse is clearly in pain.


----------



## stormox (26 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			Hffffffttttt 

Well this is utterly depressing.

I'm out of HH for a while, no one can help I need to sort and my panicky post just makes everything worse .... especially when I am listening!

Thanks all
		
Click to expand...

At least post the answer when you find it please. You may help someone else in the same situation. And it would be courteous to everyone who has tried to help you.


----------



## LaurenBay (26 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			Hffffffttttt 

Well this is utterly depressing.

I'm out of HH for a while, no one can help I need to sort and my panicky post just makes everything worse .... especially when I am listening!

Thanks all
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure your Horse is the one who is depressed.


----------



## Rowreach (26 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			Hffffffttttt 

Well this is utterly depressing.

I'm out of HH for a while, no one can help I need to sort and my panicky post just makes everything worse .... especially when I am listening!

Thanks all
		
Click to expand...

I think this is not a little ungrateful, considering the number of people who have been trying to help you for months now.  And there has been quite a bit of off-forum discussion as well, amongst people who are very concerned about your horse.

You seem to want someone to come along and say "oh yes, my horse had exactly the same symptoms, and it was solved by changing the colour of his water bucket".

Unfortunately, horse ownership is never simple, they are not robots, and you only have to scroll down the new posts on this forum to see a wide range of issues that owners face.  Yours is not typical but it needs sorting out.

You're not listening to your horse, and you're not listening to the very good advice you have been given on here.  It's time you wised up a bit and got him the specialist attention he needs.


----------



## ester (26 January 2018)

Quite, no one is responding to the OPs posts for their own benefit, they have only done so for the benefit of the horse and the OP. 

It is also quite frustrating when people have been saying this horse needs a full work up and is showing many signs of pains since at least the beginning of december that we are only know out the point of scoping and getting an abdominal scan. Two months is a long time for a horse.

I had forgotten until pictures were posted recently quite how poor and tight this horse looked on arrival from the dealers (has improved) which would make me strongly suspect something was occurring then given his type (compared to how he looked in his previous home).


Horsekaren said:



			The interesting thing is how big he use to be!

before me and last owner







last owner






first few weeks i had him after he was at the dealer (more than 6 months ago now... almost a year)






a few weeks ago





Click to expand...


----------



## Rowreach (26 January 2018)

Holy :O ester!!!

I haven't seen those before .... (the early ones I mean).


----------



## SEL (26 January 2018)

Saw the first photo and thought 'wow, stunning'. Then scrolled down.

He dropped a huge amount before OP got him. Don't like seeing heavy horses that skinny - wonder what time of the year it was. Bit annoyed the vet isn't helping her more tbh. First time owners rarely have the confidence to challenge vets and really need someone to help them through problems like this.


----------



## Arzada (26 January 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			I fear it's a waste of time replying as Op can't seem to understand that her vets doing her no favours by dragging this out.
She needs to get this horse refered and stop wasting time and money.  The poor horse is clearly in pain.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly this. Always consider vested interest. There are 3 parties involved ie horse, owner and vet. It is the horse and the OP who should be benefitting most from the veterinary intervention. I can't see that they are benefitting at all from the current vet. Please OP take the advice of all the experienced people here who are advising referral to a specialist equine hospital asap.


----------



## ester (26 January 2018)

I didn't comment when the OP posted them but it did make me wonder if there was more going on, because although I am obviously for a fit slim cob he's lost a lot of muscle too, and generally cobs/natives do not go from 1-2 without something being wrong somewhere even in winter. HK got him last feb/march as far as I can tell. 

I do hope that the vets start treating the symptoms this horse is having as a 'whole' and if they can't pass him on to someone who can. I totally get that as a new novice owner you will be vet led but at least these days people have ready access to more experience people.


----------



## Rowreach (26 January 2018)

ester said:



			I didn't comment when the OP posted them but it did make me wonder if there was more going on, because although I am obviously for a fit slim cob he's lost a lot of muscle too, and generally cobs/natives do not go from 1-2 without something being wrong somewhere even in winter. HK got him last feb/march as far as I can tell. 

I do hope that the vets start treating the symptoms this horse is having as a 'whole' and if they can't pass him on to someone who can. I totally get that as a new novice owner you will be vet led but at least these days people have ready access to more experience people.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, that's muscle wastage, not weightloss.  That doesn't look right at all.

I would expect even a newly qualified vet to be more proactive in seeking a diagnosis, given all that has gone on with this horse, let alone one who purports to be an equine vet.


----------



## ihatework (26 January 2018)

Those pictures tell an interesting story.
OP, if there is something really quite wrong with him then it&#8217;s not your fault. Something has gone on between his last private home and him ending up at the dealers.
It would be difficult enough for an experienced owner to pick through symptoms and advice and take things forward in the early days of suspecting a problem, so I&#8217;m not surprised that as a new owner you are struggling.
BUT you have reached crunch time.
A fresh, experienced pair of eyes at a referral centre. Please also show them the photo sequence as well as the list of symptoms. 
And I would for sure be asking for some pain relief for your horse in the interim. I&#8217;d suggest Finadyne if he is colicky.


----------



## Ellietotz (26 January 2018)

Just saw those pictures too, I'm shocked. He looks like a different horse and not in a good way. He doesn't look happy at all. Please just call the vet today and get him taken somewhere immediately. This has gone on and only got worse in the last 6 or so months, that's already a lot of time that has been lost and could be running out. I don't want to scare you but it almost seems like that might be the only option. He needs attention now and it's not likely to be something that is an easy fix considering how much he has deteriorated. There might not be much time left. I would not wait until Monday. Take out a loan or credit card if you need to but do it now. That poor horse is suffering and he needs you to do this for him. Please don't wait.


----------



## Leo Walker (26 January 2018)

At the risk of repeating myself, those pictures could have been my boy, lovely if too fat ones from the spring/summer, then poor ones from autumn/winter onwards getting worse until he looked about the same as yours when yours came from the dealers when I picked him up. Mine was in pain and a very unhappy horse and I could and have cried thinking about it.

The difference is within a few days he was picking up and within a few weeks he had seen a specialist vet and was undergoing a rehab programme where he went from strength to strength and blossomed literally in front of my eyes. At no point did he ever show any serious signs of distress or abdominal pain. There were also daily conversations between myself and the YO/yard staff and the varying professionals that saw him to make sure everyone felt he was improving and that we were on the right path. There wasnt a week that went by I dont think where he didnt see a vet/saddler/physio/dentist etc. He was also being schooled by a very experienced professional rider who also closely monitored his progress and was very quick to raise any minor niggles with me.

I kept a diary and carefully monitored and noted every aspect of his care in it, so that at any time I could look and see in black and white what we had done and that there was clear improvement. If at any point he had showed signs of distress or had stopped improving, he would have been straight in for a performance work up. I am all for eliminating the obvious first and working through issues, but not in a horse that is clearly distressed and in pain and seemingly worsening daily. 

Horses are heart breakers and its frustrating when you dont feel like you are getting the support you want from the vet or have the knowledge you need to challenge them. The horse previous to this one didnt receive brilliant care from my vets and I was getting increasingly frustrated and panicked. I was recommended a second opinion vet by a member of this forum. She came out to treat him and also spoke to the original vets and put a rocket up their backside. It meant that I was then able to have it out with the original vets with confidence, and care immediately improved to the levels you would expect. If you wont go for a hospital referral then that seems a good interim measure. If you give us a location then I am sure someone can recommend an excellent second opinion vet. It will still be covered by insurance.

I lost that horse. It may have happened anyway, but even now I still think he might have had a chance if he had seen the second opinion vet sooner. Dont let that happen to you. Its an awful thing to have to live with.


----------



## scats (26 January 2018)

Not read everything sorry, but to be honest, when I responded to the OPs post, I assumed that the horse was still undergoing investigation for the other issues, so my suggestion of a possible bean was more to the strange symptom of the urination and uncomfortable willy behaviour, rather than the ongoing issue.  There is always the possibility that there are a few things going on, but what is clear is that there is clearly something catastrophic amongst that and that must be your first port of call.

Im not sure where about your live OP but as others have said, Id certainly be looking at getting a pretty urgent referral.  Im not sure your current vets are really on top of this issue and I do think you need to consider a second opinion pretty swiftly.  Over the last 30years I have dealt with several situations, the most recently last summer, where I was fighting to get vets to take symptoms seriously and Im afraid that sometimes you have to get pushy about it.  Having had two horses with extremely rare gut disorders, time is of the essence.

I had not seen those photos of the horse, thats quite a drastic change and clearly there is something very wrong.  I do hope you can get to the bottom of this for the sake of your horse, and you. Best wishes.


----------



## Casey76 (26 January 2018)

OP if you are still reading but not participating (which is understandable), please  show your vet good the before and after photos. They need a frame of reference to see how poor he looks now compared to the &#8220;fat and happy&#8221; photos from before.

Keep a daily diary of heart and respiration rate at the same time of day, and again when he is exhibiting any symptoms. Read about the &#8220;pain face&#8221; and learn all the subtleties in your own horse. (I can tell if my ponies are uncomfortable by an eyebrow or nostril wrinkle, yet to a casual observer they may look happy).

Good luck, and please come back to let us know how you are both getting on


----------



## nikicb (29 January 2018)

OP, how did the scan go today?  x


----------



## Dave's Mam (30 January 2018)

Any news on him?


----------



## mytwofriends (30 January 2018)

OP, just out of courtesy to all those who offered advice and expressed concern about your horse, would you post an update? People on here are genuinely concerned and perplexed as to what is going on with him. Thanks.


----------



## Horsekaren (30 January 2018)

mytwofriends said:



			OP, just out of courtesy to all those who offered advice and expressed concern about your horse, would you post an update? People on here are genuinely concerned and perplexed as to what is going on with him. Thanks.
		
Click to expand...

The scan showed nothing... everything is normal is his stomach and his gut. Waiting for results from blood and urine. I have a horse behaviourist coming out on the weekend to help me clairfy if she thinks it's behaviour or pain. not trying to beat him down or anything I just want someone else's opinion and will take it from there. 
I'm just so lost , we are looking and finding nothing. I'm preying the urine test comes back with something. 
Then the plan (if all clear results) is to take him off steroids as they might just be making things worse if we don't know why we are using them and start again. 


I am based in Essex can anyone recommend another vet in the area for a second opinion?  
Once results are back I will ask about referral but it's so hard because we have nothing to go off :'( I'm literally in tears I just don't know any more. 

I know this post is going to make people angry, I'm angry but please don't be horrible I can't take it at the moment.


----------



## Clodagh (30 January 2018)

If you are in Essex and have insurance ask for a referral to Rossdales or NEH and leave him there for a full on work out. Who is your vet? (Pm if preferred).


----------



## TheMule (30 January 2018)

It's good that the scan showed nothing, but please don't interpret that as everything with his gut is ok! My yearling had intestinal tumours and her guts scanned fine because you get a veryblimited view of what is going on


----------



## charlie76 (30 January 2018)

Looks like liver faliure to me. Are you near water?


----------



## charlie76 (30 January 2018)

A few years ago, following heavy rain, we had two horses contract liver fluke with the exact same symptoms as your horse


----------



## little_critter (30 January 2018)

charlie76 said:



			A few years ago, following heavy rain, we had two horses contract liver fluke with the exact same symptoms as your horse
		
Click to expand...

Well if it is then the blood tests will show it up easily. I hope the vets can come up with something.
What did the vets have to say about the before and after photos and the spasming stomach video? They are not 'behavioural' issues.


----------



## ester (30 January 2018)

Or the AHT youre close to prime referral Vet country HK


----------



## Horsekaren (30 January 2018)

Thanks for the advise on vet information. 

As for liver failure i dont think this would be hiding in the bloods, they would be off the charts if the liver wasn't working, no?  People that have experience with liver issues how was this diagnosed? urine tests? I spoke about the urinating and his willy was checked for beans ect and all was fine. The vet advised sedation causes excess urination and it is also a possible side effects of the steroids which i didn't know before. 

charlie76 - how did you come to discover that was the cause, was it  just urination?  We are near a river but it is a good kilometer down hill from the yard. 

Themule- How was your intestinal tumors diagnosed? did you scans show any thickening of the walls ect?


----------



## Horsekaren (30 January 2018)

little_critter said:



			Well if it is then the blood tests will show it up easily. I hope the vets can come up with something.
What did the vets have to say about the before and after photos and the spasming stomach video? They are not 'behavioural' issues.
		
Click to expand...

Before and after didn't have much impact. The first picture was actually 2 owners ago when he was driving. I contacted the last owner who advised he was slightly overweight cresty neck ect, he was also driving so a lot more muscle which he stopped doing. When she sold him (10 months after that lovely pic) he was at a good weight so that mass of weight loss was during his 4 weeks with the dealer. The pictures that are shocking are now a year ago. His weight increased well and he is now a very good weight so i think those pictures have to go down to stress/ not being looked after. 

He is holding his weight well, he is losing muscle because he isnt being worked anywhere near as much

May - 3 months after horrible pics






last month 






If he was yoyoing with his weight it would be concerning but the story add up to him having an awful month and wasn't being fed enough.


----------



## AandK (30 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			I am based in Essex can anyone recommend another vet in the area for a second opinion?  
Once results are back I will ask about referral but it's so hard because we have nothing to go off :'( I'm literally in tears I just don't know any more.
		
Click to expand...

You do have a lot to go off, you have a whole list of symptoms.  Ask to be referred to a big practice for a full work up.  Just because your vets have yet to find anything does not mean there is nothing to find.


----------



## Horsekaren (30 January 2018)

AandK said:



			You do have a lot to go off, you have a whole list of symptoms.  Ask to be referred to a big practice for a full work up.  Just because your vets have yet to find anything does not mean there is nothing to find.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you, 
What does a full work up entail? 
It is the same as a vetting as if you were to purchase a horse ?


----------



## tristar (30 January 2018)

hi k please don`t think you are alone, i`ve been through some right hard situations and come through the other side too, its hard to see the wood for the trees at the mo, so much going on for you, but i do think talking to one of the vet colleges might help, try bristol they helped me big time once.

there is no substitute for going the top where vets are concerned, it will then be out of your hands and you will feel relief, they will take over, and please don`t be afraid to call and talk on the phone, push yourself forwards, i have always found good vet hospitals more than willing to discuss and offer options, because they understand what  a difficult time this is. is for you and the horse.

best of luck x


----------



## AandK (30 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			Thank you, 
What does a full work up entail? 
It is the same as a vetting as if you were to purchase a horse ?
		
Click to expand...

Its not like a pre purchase exam. It would vary depending on how the horse presents, (my horse has been in for lameness work ups in the past, which include nerve blocks. X-rays and a bone scan) but I would imagine for your horse they would be doing bloods, scans, scopes etc. They may well repeat tests your vet has already done, but this could pick something up that wasnt there before, or be interpreted in a different way when they have other results and symptoms to consider. 
I really hope you can get him to a big practice and get to the bottom of it.


----------



## LaurenBay (30 January 2018)

If you are in Essex then I highly recommend Rossdales in Newmarket. I took my mare there and it was brilliant.


----------



## Sandstone1 (30 January 2018)

I dont think the weight loss and muscle wastage can be behavioural.


----------



## Horsekaren (30 January 2018)

That's for recommendations, that is really helpful.

Would you think its worth sending off some hair samples for a PSSM test?  or would this show in bloods? 
We have always said he is much happier when worked, always has been but due to lack of facilities he hasn't been worked much over winter. I have posted before about him having a dozey wobbly response to fresh grass. The video i posted on page 3 could that be tying up if you look at it with out the gut in mind :/ ? im really not experienced to know what is going on in that video as i have never seen colic or tying up ... if it even is any of them. 

Whilst waiting for the results i a reading anything and everything just wondering what people would say about that and the symptoms. i have read a few posts of people sending there horses off to vets spending £££££ to no diagnoses then discovering PSSM ...  hmmmm  desperation speaking maybe 

The changes since the misery began are -
-Stabled at night
-more hard feed (fast fibre)
-less and less work (less work = the worse he seems)
-split herd (all dominant horses in another field, he is top but not a top of herd type horse) 
-Steroids
-balancers
-respiratory infection 

I absolutely know i am grasping at straws but it is a test i can get done off my own back to rule something in or out... is it worth it.


----------



## Horsekaren (30 January 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			I dont think the weight loss and muscle wastage can be behavioural.
		
Click to expand...

no i agree, but the weight loss isn't happening, (not sure if you see my post earlier but those pics were a year ago, and that wait loss happened in a month at a dealers yard) I posted more pics today to show how he is holding his weight at the moment and earlier in the year. He is holding weight very well. The muscle is decreasing because he isn't being worked. He work loads has gone from 4 -5 times a week to one 30 min session because everything is flooded and i'm scared working him might make it worse... despite the fact he loves being worked!


----------



## ester (30 January 2018)

Just to clarify my point about the weightloss, because I was aware when I highlighted it that he looks ok currently, is that for most cobs even if you fed them practically nothing they would not look like that in 4 weeks. It was also not just the weight/muscle situation but the way he is holding himself in those pictures, he looks like something hurts. 

PSSM would sometimes show up in a blood test depending on how long the horse had been rested for, usually muscle myopathies (Which would include PSSM among them) are initially tested by taking pre and post exercise bloods. I don't think his collection of symptoms are screaming that possibility to me though. 

as far as I know all liver function would also show up on bloods too, even if it is fluke causing it (I have had conversations with my own vet about fluke possibilities regarding F's substandard liver function as we have had sheep on the ground)


^^ and both of these additions I really do think highlights the problem you have here as I have said previously, there are so many possibilities for what is wrong with him given his symptoms and most of them don't fit exactly only some. Of course you could have several fairly benign issues causing the collection of symptoms or you could have something more unusual. This is why the recommendation to go to someone more experienced at picking apart these complicated and confusing cases.


----------



## DabDab (30 January 2018)

I think it's unlikely to be pssm causing all his problems. In that video he looks to be suffering from severe abdominal pain (which I would describe as colic). 

Liver issues most vets are pretty good at identifying, but then again you never know....

Good luck with the referral


----------



## KrujaaLass (30 January 2018)

Give Rossdales vets in Hertfordshire a ring


----------



## Horsekaren (30 January 2018)

Results just back, wee fine, AP indicator in the blood has increased, it went down before and is now going up so we are getting a referral to Liphook as this is their partner. Anyone used Liphook? 
Does anyone have a better understanding of what the AP indicator is?


----------



## AandK (30 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			Results just back, wee fine, AP indicator in the blood has increased, it went down before and is now going up so we are getting a referral to Liphook as this is their partner. Anyone used Liphook? 
Does anyone have a better understanding of what the AP indicator is?
		
Click to expand...

Liphook is the place my horse was referred to a couple of times, he also stayed there for 8 days with colic. This was about 8yrs ago but they are a big practice and well equipped to try and get to the bottom of his issues. Good luck.


----------



## scats (30 January 2018)

I think AP indicators are to do with liver function but can fluctuate with infection.
My mare does that strange flank spasming, I can video it tomorrow but its near identical.  Hers is her abdominal muscles assisting her lungs in pushing the air out due to her compromised trachea.  Does you horse make a noise or get out of breathe easily?

Good luck with the referral x


----------



## SEL (30 January 2018)

AP is liver. Great to hear you're getting a referral - they'll be able to run the right tests for you. Keep us posted.


----------



## Horsekaren (30 January 2018)

scats said:



			I think AP indicators are to do with liver function but can fluctuate with infection.
My mare does that strange flank spasming, I can video it tomorrow but its near identical.  Hers is her abdominal muscles assisting her lungs in pushing the air out due to her compromised trachea.  Does you horse make a noise or get out of breathe easily?

Good luck with the referral x
		
Click to expand...

Yes he does get out of breath and take a while to breath normally once worked or stressed. They said this could be because of his previous infection and his harder breathing is now just normal for him. Possibly there is something connected with that.

We have never mentioned anything about his liver before, just hope what ever it is we can fix it and we can move on to have many happy years together.


----------



## ester (30 January 2018)

AP isn't just liver, especially presuming other liver indicators have tested OK. 

'Alkaline phosphatase (AP)
Increased serum AP concentration has the strongest association with failure to survive of any enzymes although increased serum AP
concentration is *neither consistently increased in liver disease nor liver specific.* In addition to hepatobiliary sources, serum AP is known to be derived from bone, intestine, inflammatory cells and placenta and these possible sources should be considered in 
 interpretation of increased serum AP concentrations. '

'AP arises from many sources but high levels in adult horses are usually from hepatopathy or enteropathy. AP is also released from monocytes and may non-specifically reflect
inflammation. Young, growing horses normally have high levels derived from bone sources'

https://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Lab-Book-Liver-Disease.pdf
https://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Investigating-Weight-Loss2.pdf

that's from liphook themselves anyway  
I am sure they will be good with you HK, I think they only weren't suggested as generally considered quite a lot further away than the others from Essex. Fairly sure friends horse ended up their for 3 weeks with pneumonia.


----------



## Rosiejazzandpia (30 January 2018)

Keep checking on this thread and have no words of wisdom but keeping my fingers crossed for you. 
Just out of interest, what dealer did he come from?


----------



## nikicb (30 January 2018)

Liphook are great - they were my local vet hospital when I lived in Surrey and my old mare spent a couple of weeks there.  Good luck!  xx


----------



## charlie76 (30 January 2018)

I said liver earlier. Ask the vets to worm for fluke, they will prob say its unlikey but we had two with similar symptoms. One was wormed for fluke and made a full recovery, the other wasnt and he died. Both vets were dismissive of fluke but the weather conditons when we had the issue were exactly as they are now.


----------



## Dave's Mam (31 January 2018)

I think the OP's best guidance is to go with the referral to Liphook & see what comes of it.  She's obviously beside herself with worry, as I am sure I would be if this had all happened to my first horse.

HK, let the experts take over & do their stuff & I hope you get answers soon & do keep us posted.  Lots of us are genuinely interested & care for both you & your lovely horse.

Also, go easy on yourself, it's been a tough road for you.  Big love from me & Dave, of course.


----------



## LaurenBay (31 January 2018)

Glad to hear you have been referred. Good luck and I hope you get to the bottom of it. Do keep us updated.


----------



## ester (31 January 2018)

charlie76 said:



			I said liver earlier. Ask the vets to worm for fluke, they will prob say its unlikey but we had two with similar symptoms. One was wormed for fluke and made a full recovery, the other wasnt and he died. Both vets were dismissive of fluke but the weather conditons when we had the issue were exactly as they are now.
		
Click to expand...

What were your horse's blood tests though? Did none of the other liver indicators come up? I think that would be fairly unusual if it were a fluke problem. My vet certainly wasn't dismissive of the possibility of fluke. 

I am sure liphook will assess the existing blood results and take their own with any other diagnostics and come up with the best options for treatment.


----------



## Rowreach (31 January 2018)

That's more positive OP, I hope Liphook get to the bottom of it quickly.  As ester says, it's over to them now.


----------



## tristar (31 January 2018)

have not read all previous info, but have the tests to date eliminated kidney problems?

excessive urination and abdominal discomfort would get me to look at that first.

has he had any bute recently?

loss of proteins from excessive urination would lead to weight loss and muscle loss, of course not  knowing the  daily routine management and from a distance its only a suggestion


----------



## MotherOfChickens (31 January 2018)

Dave's Mam said:



			I think the OP's best guidance is to go with the referral to Liphook & see what comes of it.  She's obviously beside herself with worry, as I am sure I would be if this had all happened to my first horse.

HK, let the experts take over & do their stuff & I hope you get answers soon & do keep us posted.  Lots of us are genuinely interested & care for both you & your lovely horse.

Also, go easy on yourself, it's been a tough road for you.  Big love from me & Dave, of course.
		
Click to expand...


yes ^^ this! I've not commented before as the whole world had an opinion and diagnosis from their keyboards and there didnt seem a point to adding to the pile on. very glad you are going to Liphook, it always was a fine horsepital. let thenm do their thing OP and I wish you lots of luck-as do Druid and Rocky!


----------



## Shady (31 January 2018)

MotherOfChickens said:



			yes ^^ this! I've not commented before as the whole world had an opinion and diagnosis from their keyboards and there didnt seem a point to adding to the pile on. very glad you are going to Liphook, it always was a fine horsepital. let thenm do their thing OP and I wish you lots of luck-as do Druid and Rocky!
		
Click to expand...

I'm with you on this MOC and DM, i have read all the replies but except for being genuinely shocked by the condition of OP's horse when at the dealers i don't have the experience to offer anything other than that i sincerely hope Liphook find the answers to the problem and your lovely horse becomes well again. xxxxxxxxx


----------



## Horsekaren (31 January 2018)

Thanks for the kind messages, he is booked in for next Wednesday, he will stay a few days, i believe they want to scope and possibly run a glucose absorption test so still not sure what they are thinking.
Hopefully Strawberry (that's his name) will be back to his wonderful happy self again soon. 

Just so relieved to be getting somewhere! i will sob leaving him there but at the same time knowing he is in the best hands.


----------



## ester (31 January 2018)

So long as they don't touch the moustache eh   

Good luck it is definitely the right thing to be doing .


----------



## Sparemare (31 January 2018)

Just caught up on your thread Karen.  Good luck and try not to worry.  Easier said than done I know, but you are doing your best for him.


----------



## Chinchilla (31 January 2018)

Good luck HK, Good luck mister stunning Strawberry. Hope your wallet, and that majestic mustache, come out of horsepital as undamaged as possible and that you get to the bottom of all this quickly so you can enjoy your first horse. It IS enjoyable honestly!! xx


----------



## SallyBatty (31 January 2018)

So glad to hear that he has been referred to an equine hospital.  Liphook have a very good reputation round my way.  Please keep us updated.


----------



## D66 (31 January 2018)

Horsekaren said:








Click to expand...

I think he has just eaten a ****land!


----------



## Leo Walker (31 January 2018)

I love his name! Fingers crossed for them getting to the bottom of things quickly. Its an awful situation to be in.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (31 January 2018)

I've said before and I'll say it again, "he is a lovely looking horse".  All the best for next Wednesday.


----------



## OldNag (31 January 2018)

My goodness that moustache is magnificent! 
I hope you get some answers. It must be so frustrating.


----------



## mytwofriends (31 January 2018)

Much more positive! I know your horse isnt out of the woods just yet, but hell be in safe hands. Hes a very handsome man!

Hope all goes well next week. In the meantime, theres no point second guessing anything, thats what the professionals are for. Just take good care of yourself.


----------



## Horsekaren (1 February 2018)

I guess my last bit of advice is for the jeourny. We don't take him more than 30 mins away so this is a long jeourney for him (hour and half / two hours)

Usually he doesn't travel with boots as he is feathered I don't want him over heating. He normally isn't rugged to travel unless sweaty. Should I re think this for a longer jeourny? 
He will have a huge damp hay net and possibly a calming munch block. Water will be coming with is but hoping the damp hay will keep thirst at bay.
Any other tips for making the jeourney stress free?


----------



## Barlow (1 February 2018)

Mine doesn&#8217;t travel in travel boots, just knee boots and brushing boots. I&#8217;ve travelled him for up to 5 hours like this. I have a box so I open all the windows and at this time of year he travels in a light wool rug (he&#8217;s clipped). Big haynet to keep him quiet and he travels well and doesn&#8217;t seem fussed if it&#8217;s 5 mins or 5 hours. Just drive as smoothly as you can, I always think ride is the most important thing.


----------



## Merlod (1 February 2018)

I usually travel with haylage (blue bag horsehage for native normally on hay) due to the increased moisture content without the mess of wet hay and also as a treat for travelling. Presuming he isnt clipped and if the weather is fair I would travel rugless but would bring a cooler in case it gets cold/he sweats up and would also bring stable rug just in case needed (and leave both with him at vets). My boy doesnt like travel boots so we compromise on shires half height ones  Best of luck to you and your boy.


----------



## little_critter (1 February 2018)

How is he to travel for his normal 30 minute trips? If he doesn't stress on those then I wouldn't think he would stress on a longer trip.
I wouldn't rug as I find my lorry can get quite warm and stuffy (don't know if you have a lorry or trailer). I open windows, but only those 'down-wind' of the horse so they aren't travelling with the wind straight into their face.
I would maybe damp the haynet but try to drain it as much as possible. I don't think you need to worry too much about thirst, I assume you would go on a 1.5 hour hack without worrying about needing drink stops? Just ensure he has access to water before and after the trip.
Good luck - I hope they can get to the bottom of things for you.


----------



## Horsekaren (1 February 2018)

little_critter said:



			How is he to travel for his normal 30 minute trips? If he doesn't stress on those then I wouldn't think he would stress on a longer trip.
I wouldn't rug as I find my lorry can get quite warm and stuffy (don't know if you have a lorry or trailer). I open windows, but only those 'down-wind' of the horse so they aren't travelling with the wind straight into their face.
I would maybe damp the haynet but try to drain it as much as possible. I don't think you need to worry too much about thirst, I assume you would go on a 1.5 hour hack without worrying about needing drink stops? Just ensure he has access to water before and after the trip.
Good luck - I hope they can get to the bottom of things for you.
		
Click to expand...



He is normally a good traveler once he is on and we are moving. We have IFOR 506 and a defender to pull so i think it drives smooth as he does seem to chill out and eat his hay.

Looking at the weather in advance its looking like its going to be about 4 degrees when we travel... i wouldn't rug him in his stable unless below 4 degrees and i guess a trailer would be warmer. 

I have a mesh cooler rug but im not sure if there is any point putting it on. I am tempted to buy a waffle cooler for him to take with him :/ do people use these as stable rugs over night sometimes? and if he gets sweaty with the tests and sedation :/  i presume he will be staying in the big barn stables so will be a bit warmer and dont want him melting in a fleece as the nights are looking to be in the minus numbers :/


----------



## little_critter (1 February 2018)

I do know people who use waffle coolers as rugs.
It reminds me of when I took my cob to hospital in Newbury, it was during a cold snap so I gave them her fleece and a warmer full neck stable rug for if it turned really cold.
Bless, they are obviously used to dealing with TB racehorses as when I arrived to pick her up she was wearing ALL of her rugs (I only intended them to be used one at a time).

Don't be surprised if they just expect you to drop off your horse and all associated bits and bobs (I find they don't want too much 'stuff' as it's more things for them to lose, some don't even want you to leave the headcollar), fill in some forms and go away again.
I was expecting them to want to go over the case and have an in depth chat about the horse, but I think they tend to know all they feel they need to know (from your vet) and want to be left alone to do their own investigations.
Both times I've dropped my pony off to hospital they were kind and friendly, but that's literally all it was, a drop off.
They generally do their rounds in the morning then give you a call to let you know how your horse is and what's going on (I'm sure they will let you know their processes)


----------



## Horsekaren (1 February 2018)

little_critter said:



			I do know people who use waffle coolers as rugs.
It reminds me of when I took my cob to hospital in Newbury, it was during a cold snap so I gave them her fleece and a warmer full neck stable rug for if it turned really cold.
Bless, they are obviously used to dealing with TB racehorses as when I arrived to pick her up she was wearing ALL of her rugs (I only intended them to be used one at a time).

Don't be surprised if they just expect you to drop off your horse and all associated bits and bobs (I find they don't want too much 'stuff' as it's more things for them to lose, some don't even want you to leave the headcollar), fill in some forms and go away again.
I was expecting them to want to go over the case and have an in depth chat about the horse, but I think they tend to know all they feel they need to know (from your vet) and want to be left alone to do their own investigations.
Both times I've dropped my pony off to hospital they were kind and friendly, but that's literally all it was, a drop off.
They generally do their rounds in the morning then give you a call to let you know how your horse is and what's going on (I'm sure they will let you know their processes)
		
Click to expand...

o dear... and heres me sorting him out a going away pack, munch blocks, rugs  depending on temp, dually, a food and routine diary    making print out notes of what i'm going to tell them  

As long as i can see where he is staying and be told their plan i think it will be a relief handing him over, there is nothing more i can do for him, we are just about muddling through taking it day by day.


----------



## Ellietotz (1 February 2018)

Good to hear that he is being referred. Really hope you find out the answer to all of this. 
Just one thing, don't over think it! He doesn't need an overnight bag, put a fleece cooler or something like that on him to travel with so they have something to put on him if they need to but generally they're kept inside with regulated temperatures I thought? Either way, stop worrying, they know what they're doing and they will look after him. Good luck x


----------



## LaurenBay (1 February 2018)

I wouldn't worry too much on what to take. They are very equipped.

I travel mine in brushing boots and overreach boots as she won't have travel boots on. I traveled her in a fleece but I took a thicker rug for when we got there if she needed it.

I didn't see her too much when at the hospital, the staff member met us at the gate and lead her off, I did check her before leaving to find she had a different head collar on and they had plaited an ID into her mane. They also loaded her for me on the way home.


----------



## little_critter (1 February 2018)

Horsekaren said:



			o dear... and heres me sorting him out a going away pack, munch blocks, rugs  depending on temp, dually, a food and routine diary    making print out notes of what i'm going to tell them  

As long as i can see where he is staying and be told their plan i think it will be a relief handing him over, there is nothing more i can do for him, we are just about muddling through taking it day by day.
		
Click to expand...

Sort a going away pack by all means, you never know. But don't be surprised if they want the bare minimum.


----------



## Rowreach (1 February 2018)

little_critter said:



			Sort a going away pack by all means, you never know. But don't be surprised if they want the bare minimum.
		
Click to expand...

I normally leave a l/w stable rug, headcollar and lead rope, although sometimes they don't want the rope.  Make sure everything is clearly labelled.


----------



## nikicb (1 February 2018)

Our vets prefer as little as possible to be left.  The only one I leave a headcollar for is the Sec A as they don't often have one that small to hand.  Plus just one rug depending on the season.  Donnington Grove have heat lamps in a lot of the stables - I guess for all the wimpy racehorses they have in!  Liphook will probably have the same.  If he is on a special diet or has medication, you should take that with you - obviously depending on the tests they do, they may choose not to give it while he is there.  Don't forget his passport!  Plus make sure you have your insurance company's details to hand.  Check what their procedure is in terms of billing - they may bill you and leave you to reclaim from the insurance company.  If he travels fine for 30 minutes, I am sure he will be fine for the longer journey - if all is quiet I would just push on and not worry about stopping too much as they may unsettle him more.  Good luck and keep us updated!  xx


----------



## Cecile (1 February 2018)

Both of mine went with headcollar/leadrope, I had rugs in the car but they didn't need them, I forgot the passports both times.  I did take food in for one as it was best he stayed on the same food, they had opening times to visit which I took full advantage of but I was close by.  I did arrive to find one of mine with an oversized thermatex rug on as overnight it had turned chilly

Some had their own rugs on and one person had bought their own water containers with water, maybe it was special water as in filtered or soft water <no idea why>

Their hay was incredibly nice so I arranged to buy some to take home so as not to change anything for the first few weeks.
I took in the grooming box on my daily visits to do something but it was fairly limited on what I could do as he had lines etc in so most of the time I spent just sitting on the floor talking to him 

It was at 2 separate years/2 different ponies, I gave insurance details and my credit card details to a/c's, vet would come and see me if there and I would also get a call for progress report irrespective of time of day, so my mobile went to bed with me


----------



## mytwofriends (1 February 2018)

Ive worked at an equine hospital. People could bring their own rugs or use the hospitals, their choice. If they left any of their own, wed always send them home washed (a nice touch that owners appreciated.) Likewise with headcollars.

Some people would take their own feed, but the vast majority would be happy using what the hospital used. Theyd just give us an idea what quantity their horse had of chaff/nuts/sugarbeet, hay/haylage etc.

No need to overpack.


----------

