# British Eventing and British Breeding



## Springs (1 October 2017)

British Eventing and British Breeding.

So in the last few days I have been at the British Eventing Young Horse Championships with a 5yo. 

British Eventing also held there AGM on Friday late afternoon and had an open question time where I asked the following:

"In today's 5yo class out of the 69 that qualified and the 59 that started only 19% are British Bred, now considering the value of £ now being 20% lower than a year ago and the horses in Europe and Ireland not being cheap any more, what is British Eventing going to support British Breeding?"

Large round of applause.

The answer:

"We will have to get back to you on that"

The meeting then closed. 

I did very briefly discuss with two members of the board who seem keen to engage with breeders to link everything together.

I'll let you know what happens.


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## chipbutty (1 October 2017)

i checked the results too, and the highest placed from the futurity was a graf that gained a higher first. The top 10 was littered with irish horses, I couldn't find anything on the winner, im sure that will come out in the H&H feature. Monbeg and Fernill stud both did very well.

Well done to your horse, a valiant effort.

Keep us up to date with any plans.


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## ihatework (1 October 2017)

Any idea of the %'s in the CICYH* & CICYH**?
I'm never completely convinced by the 4/5yo classes but when they hit 6/7 then you start to see what you have got


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## Springs (1 October 2017)

Thanks, she did a good job and has completely exceeded our expatations, SJ course didn't suite her as it was a bit stop start but horses for courses as we know. 

Will see how BE respond and keep everyone up to speed.


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## Springs (1 October 2017)

ihatework said:



			Any idea of the %'s in the CICYH* & CICYH**?
I'm never completely convinced by the 4/5yo classes but when they hit 6/7 then you start to see what you have got
		
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Hi Sorry, I don't at the moment, but will see if I can get the data and run the calculation


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## Springs (1 October 2017)

Springs said:



			Hi Sorry, I don't at the moment, but will see if I can get the data and run the calculation
		
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Found the data:

6yo - of the 79 starters 26% were British Bred

7yo - of the 62 staters 38% were British Bred


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## ihatework (1 October 2017)

Springs said:



			Found the data:

6yo - of the 79 starters 26% were British Bred

7yo - of the 62 staters 38% were British Bred
		
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Great, thanks. Good to see the % rising


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## Springs (1 October 2017)

ihatework said:



			Great, thanks. Good to see the % rising
		
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Rising from when, let's see the data.


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## popsdosh (1 October 2017)

ihatework said:



			Great, thanks. Good to see the % rising
		
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Yes its the usual story a high % of imported horses in 4&5 yo classes as usually bought to sell on early . Most of the British breeders are very reluctant to run promising horses at that age as there is no doubt they last longer ,many top 4* horses never really show up on the radar until 7 or 8 yos. IMO neither BYEH or 4 and 5 yo classes are in a young horses interest if being aimed at 2* and beyond.


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## Springs (1 October 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Yes its the usual story a high % of imported horses in 4&5 yo classes as usually bought to sell on early . Most of the British breeders are very reluctant to run promising horses at that age as there is no doubt they last longer ,many top 4* horses never really show up on the radar until 7 or 8 yos. IMO neither BYEH or 4 and 5 yo classes are in a young horses interest if being aimed at 2* and beyond.
		
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Where is the data to support the information?


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## popsdosh (2 October 2017)

Springs said:



			Where is the data to support the information?
		
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Quite simply in the figures you quoted its not exactly a difficult conclusion to reach. I have seen to many 4 and 5 yo s doing the age classes that are screwed up at 8&9 normally with tendon and ligament damage. I suggest a quick look through some 4* horses records would also support that very few if any top performers are campaigned intensely at 4&5


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## DabDab (2 October 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Quite simply in the figures you quoted its not exactly a difficult conclusion to reach. I have seen to many 4 and 5 yo s doing the age classes that are screwed up at 8&9 normally with tendon and ligament damage. I suggest a quick look through some 4* horses records would also support that very few if any top performers are campaigned intensely at 4&5
		
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I agree - I think it's a very rational conclusion. Also, a lot of British bred horses intended for eventing do not come from big breeding programmes, they are often bred by ambitious amateurs and pros who will be running between 2 and 4 horses at a time and breed with the intention that the youngstock will be competition prospects for themselves. There is not much value in people like this taking their young horses to these classes - they do better to be popping them round 90 and 100 classes as and when it suits their stage of development. 

Training young horses is never a particularly linear process, but this is even more so in eventing and therefore the young horse classes just don't really serve to tell you a great deal. However, for producers intending to sell on (who are far more likely to have bought-in and therefore often foreign stock), the young horse classes are a great sales tool.


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## Springs (2 October 2017)

Remember the post is about British breeding and being supported by British Eventing. An earlier discussion on the futurity said that joined up cooperation between the replacement futurity, BEF, stud books and sport bodies was not possible. 

But for British Breeding to move on there has to be some cooperation, if not what is the answer?

In the similar 5yo class in France recently 91% were French bred.


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## ihatework (2 October 2017)

Springs said:



			Remember the post is about British breeding and being supported by British Eventing. An earlier discussion on the futurity said that joined up cooperation between the replacement futurity, BEF, stud books and sport bodies was not possible. 

But for British Breeding to move on there has to be some cooperation, if not what is the answer?

In the similar 5yo class in France recently 91% were French bred.
		
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What is it you think BE/BEF should be doing? I agree that they should be supporting British breeding but I'm not clear myself that there is one obvious thing they should be doing. For me this isn't about %'s in 4/5yo classes - those classes are bread and butter sales showcases and most (not all, there are notable exceptions) of riders with horses they genuinely think top class would be producing those horses differently.

For me, I'd want to see some sort of funding/scheme to help enable keep British horses, with British riders and with financial support for the owners/breeders. Too many British owners run their horses with foreign riders because the national federations fund stuff ...


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## DabDab (2 October 2017)

Springs said:



			Remember the post is about British breeding and being supported by British Eventing. An earlier discussion on the futurity said that joined up cooperation between the replacement futurity, BEF, stud books and sport bodies was not possible. 

But for British Breeding to move on there has to be some cooperation, if not what is the answer?

In the similar 5yo class in France recently 91% were French bred.
		
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But what is the objective? To make British bred horses more desirable in eventing? There's not a lot that BE can do to stop producers and potential owners going to Ireland for youngstock and the British are not likely to be able to replicate the Irish breeding and youngstock sales culture over here. 

As above, making sure the best British horses stay British would be the most important thing for me


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## Springs (3 October 2017)

DabDab said:



			But what is the objective? To make British bred horses more desirable in eventing? There's not a lot that BE can do to stop producers and potential owners going to Ireland for youngstock and the British are not likely to be able to replicate the Irish breeding and youngstock sales culture over here. 

As above, making sure the best British horses stay British would be the most important thing for me
		
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For them to answer the question for a start would be useful and I think there's more that can be done to support British horses in eventing, such as priority to British Bred and registered horses in the 4, 5, 6. 7, 8 and 9 yo classes, better prise money for British Bred, better links to futurity to name a few.


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## DabDab (3 October 2017)

Springs said:



			For them to answer the question for a start would be useful and I think there's more that can be done to support British horses in eventing, such as priority to British Bred and registered horses in the 4, 5, 6. 7, 8 and 9 yo classes, better prise money for British Bred, better links to futurity to name a few.
		
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But you/they have to know what they are trying to achieve with this 'support', otherwise it is unlikely to be successful. Usually breeding is supported so that the riders at the top level in the country have good access to plenty of potentially top class horses. And as discussed up thread, the 4 and 5yo classes may not be the best predictor of that, so it would not make sense for BE to work on the basis of that statistic.


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## sywell (5 October 2017)

DabDab said:



			But you/they have to know what they are trying to achieve with this 'support', otherwise it is unlikely to be successful. Usually breeding is supported so that the riders at the top level in the country have good access to plenty of potentially top class horses. And as discussed up thread, the 4 and 5yo classes may not be the best predictor of that, so it would not make sense for BE to work on the basis of that statistic.
		
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The WBFSH YHC Championships in France and you will have seen in H & H and in BE we have filled our quota in the 6 & 7 year old classes. This is a competition between breeders and studbooks not riders and NF. Many countries will only send horses bred in their country. We send 3 British Bred and 7 or 8 Irish, 1 BWP some of the details on the FEI website that were sent in by the BEF did not seem to have a UELN. The Futurity in doubt and the Equine Bridge lost seems you should move to France to get support as a breeder.


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## ycbm (5 October 2017)

I'm not exactly sure why the grass roots level riders that I think provide most of the funding for BE should pay a bigger entry fee so that money can be spent on British breeders.

Can someone explain the benefit?


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## woodlandswow (5 October 2017)

I think at the end of the day the horses we are breeding obviously aren't good enough for the british riders to want to ride and get to top level. BE can't offer prize money to best BB in class if it comes 32nd - that would look worse than not offering it at all. 
We need to start breeding a better standard of eventer - as H and H reported last week compared to dressage at futurity there were no way near as many "elite" eventers and non of them three year olds


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## TheMule (5 October 2017)

But we stand some of the best eventing stallions in the world, based on their own merits and that of their offspring. So why are we not breeding such good event horses? Or maybe we are but eventers are riding showjumpers now.
A quick glance through the breeding at the Novice champs at Gatcombe showed a huge majority of horses being bred for SJ.


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## DabDab (5 October 2017)

Since France has been mentioned a couple of times, I thought I'd link this article: http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/20...what-made-france-great-part-one-the-breeders/


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## sallyf (5 October 2017)

woodlandswow said:



			I think at the end of the day the horses we are breeding obviously aren't good enough for the british riders to want to ride and get to top level. BE can't offer prize money to best BB in class if it comes 32nd - that would look worse than not offering it at all. 
We need to start breeding a better standard of eventer - as H and H reported last week compared to dressage at futurity there were no way near as many "elite" eventers and non of them three year olds
		
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There are many of us that breed specifically for eventing using proven mares and stallions but choose not to take our stock to the Futurity.
I have 4 foals for sale and a lot of interest in them (only advertised a week) but I don't have any interest in taking my youngsters to the futurity where there trots wont look flashy enough against foals that are by dressage stallions and probably wont jump later on.
I have a 4 year old here who has been quietly backed showing a lot of potential but now home for a holiday before going back to be competed as a 5 year old.
I'm not particularly interested in young horses classes either although have bred one that has been selected for the world young horse championships in Le Lion (sadly not going because of a virus).
He was purchased from us as a foal and never did the Futurity and only ever did one BYEH at 5 for experience


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## TheOldTrout (5 October 2017)

Funnily enough I'd been wondering about British-bred event horses the other day, having looked at this and seen that very few of the horses in the top 20 were British-bred:
http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-...tle=Top+Riders,+Horses+and+Goldman+Cup+League (second table down) Even allowing for things like horses being injured or not competed as frequently as others, which would affect the list, there still don't seem to be many British-bred top eventers.


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## cundlegreen (5 October 2017)

How many of you breeders passport your horses with the SHB(GB)? I do all of mine because they are welsh partbreds, and I feel this is the obvious choice of passporting authority. However, considering their criteria is quite high for stallion grading( I have seen at least one proven eventer failed by them), I was astonished to find little or no information about a graded stallions progeny performance. Surely something that should be addressed to encourage us to use british based stallions. Here is the email I sent them yesterday after  trawling for information brought this up....

" I have just been searching your website for the progeny results for Catherston Liberator. As an event horse producer, owner and breeder, I'm keen to see event results for stallions. However, both Xavier Faere and trevarth to name but two, are both advanced eventers, with the first horse having come 3rd at badminton last year!
How come that these results are not on your website, considering that I, and a lot of breeders like me, use your passporting service, and would expect you to  highlight your graded stallions. I am somewhat shocked, especially as I have a  yearling colt, who had most of his results displayed on your website, albeit only for showing in hand.
It may well be that Liberator, and other stallions like him are completely under the radar due to lack of information. Surely if we are trying to promote British bred stallions and their progeny, this is a very important failing?"
Thoughts please?


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## DabDab (5 October 2017)

Good email cundlegreen, will be interesting if they respond. The results sections for the stallions are sorely lacking on their site. I think our stud books in this country are a real weakness


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## Springs (5 October 2017)

ycbm said:



			I'm not exactly sure why the grass roots level riders that I think provide most of the funding for BE should pay a bigger entry fee so that money can be spent on British breeders.

Can someone explain the benefit?
		
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I don't think anyone has recommended or planned that grassroots riders should fund anything on British Breeding


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## Springs (5 October 2017)

woodlandswow said:



			I think at the end of the day the horses we are breeding obviously aren't good enough for the british riders to want to ride and get to top level. BE can't offer prize money to best BB in class if it comes 32nd - that would look worse than not offering it at all. 
We need to start breeding a better standard of eventer - as H and H reported last week compared to dressage at futurity there were no way near as many "elite" eventers and non of them three year olds
		
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I think that one of our problems is that it's become custom and practice for the producers of young horses just to automatically go to Ireland or Europe to purchase horses to produce, compete and sell. However with the recession in Europe after the banking crash and Brexit the quantity and quality have dropped. They also now cost 15 to 20% more due to the value of the £ so the UK Bred horse is now more competitive from a cost point. I have had some feedback from horse shoppers going to Ireland and they are not cheap anymore.


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## Springs (5 October 2017)

cundlegreen said:



			How many of you breeders passport your horses with the SHB(GB)? I do all of mine because they are welsh partbreds, and I feel this is the obvious choice of passporting authority. However, considering their criteria is quite high for stallion grading( I have seen at least one proven eventer failed by them), I was astonished to find little or no information about a graded stallions progeny performance. Surely something that should be addressed to encourage us to use british based stallions. Here is the email I sent them yesterday after  trawling for information brought this up....

" I have just been searching your website for the progeny results for Catherston Liberator. As an event horse producer, owner and breeder, I'm keen to see event results for stallions. However, both Xavier Faere and trevarth to name but two, are both advanced eventers, with the first horse having come 3rd at badminton last year!
How come that these results are not on your website, considering that I, and a lot of breeders like me, use your passporting service, and would expect you to  highlight your graded stallions. I am somewhat shocked, especially as I have a  yearling colt, who had most of his results displayed on your website, albeit only for showing in hand.
It may well be that Liberator, and other stallions like him are completely under the radar due to lack of information. Surely if we are trying to promote British bred stallions and their progeny, this is a very important failing?"
Thoughts please?
		
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Well said and please let us know the response as the stud books in the U.K. Also need to get smarter.


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## spacefaer (6 October 2017)

It's really hard to find out anything about a horse's breeding in the UK

If I want to know an Irish horse's pedigree, I look on the IHR website (formerly CapellOir). If I want to know its competition results, I look on the relevant discipline's website. If I want to know the results of a particular stallion's grading, I look it up. Ditto progeny or siblings.

And all this information is available for free.

If you want to know anything about a UK horse - there's virtually nothing. 

That's one of the reasons why people go abroad, whether to Ireland or Europe - they have a much better idea of what they are buying.

I buy Irish bred horses - I have only bought one English bred horse in the last 8 years - because I know what I'm buying, in terms of bloodlines, performance and temperament.

The UK breeders have a massive problem in trying to compete with that.


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## DabDab (6 October 2017)

spacefaer said:



			It's really hard to find out anything about a horse's breeding in the UK

If I want to know an Irish horse's pedigree, I look on the IHR website (formerly CapellOir). If I want to know its competition results, I look on the relevant discipline's website. If I want to know the results of a particular stallion's grading, I look it up. Ditto progeny or siblings.

And all this information is available for free.

If you want to know anything about a UK horse - there's virtually nothing. 

That's one of the reasons why people go abroad, whether to Ireland or Europe - they have a much better idea of what they are buying.

I buy Irish bred horses - I have only bought one English bred horse in the last 8 years - because I know what I'm buying, in terms of bloodlines, performance and temperament.

The UK breeders have a massive problem in trying to compete with that.
		
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Yep, completely agree - it's all the little things about the culture of sports horse breeding in Ireland that makes them the go to still. UK breeding isn't treated like an industry in the same way.

I'm the opposite to you spacefaer, I used to buy Irish but for years now have only bought British bred, usually from within 60 miles of where I live (as I buy direct from breeders generally). And I do so because they are comparatively cheap, and the huge range of interesting bloodlines that are used in this country mean that you purchase just about anything you want in terms of temperament and build. But my god do I have to search and scrat around to find them


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## ycbm (6 October 2017)

Springs said:



			I don't think anyone has recommended or planned that grassroots riders should fund anything on British Breeding
		
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			I did very briefly discuss with two members of the board who seem keen to engage with breeders to link everything together.
		
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But this will cost money, won't it?  How is BE to pay for it if not by raising it from the membership?


This thread has raised is a very interesting discussion, though.


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## ihatework (6 October 2017)

cundlegreen said:



			How many of you breeders passport your horses with the SHB(GB)? I do all of mine because they are welsh partbreds, and I feel this is the obvious choice of passporting authority. However, considering their criteria is quite high for stallion grading( I have seen at least one proven eventer failed by them), I was astonished to find little or no information about a graded stallions progeny performance. Surely something that should be addressed to encourage us to use british based stallions. Here is the email I sent them yesterday after  trawling for information brought this up....

" I have just been searching your website for the progeny results for Catherston Liberator. As an event horse producer, owner and breeder, I'm keen to see event results for stallions. However, both Xavier Faere and trevarth to name but two, are both advanced eventers, with the first horse having come 3rd at badminton last year!
How come that these results are not on your website, considering that I, and a lot of breeders like me, use your passporting service, and would expect you to  highlight your graded stallions. I am somewhat shocked, especially as I have a  yearling colt, who had most of his results displayed on your website, albeit only for showing in hand.
It may well be that Liberator, and other stallions like him are completely under the radar due to lack of information. Surely if we are trying to promote British bred stallions and their progeny, this is a very important failing?"
Thoughts please?
		
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Cundlegreen you are spot on.
I did register my foal with SHB(GB) and his dam is graded with them but I have to say this stud book and their whole infrastructure needs a big overhaul.
Less emphasis on fat show hunters and more on sports performance (dare I say it!!)


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## sywell (6 October 2017)

sallyf said:



			There are many of us that breed specifically for eventing using proven mares and stallions but choose not to take our stock to the Futurity.
I have 4 foals for sale and a lot of interest in them (only advertised a week) but I don't have any interest in taking my youngsters to the futurity where there trots wont look flashy enough against foals that are by dressage stallions and probably wont jump later on.
I have a 4 year old here who has been quietly backed showing a lot of potential but now home for a holiday before going back to be competed as a 5 year old.
I'm not particularly interested in young horses classes either although have bred one that has been selected for the world young horse championships in Le Lion (sadly not going because of a virus).
He was purchased from us as a foal and never did the Futurity and only ever did one BYEH at 5 for experience
		
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In Hanoverian all mares  are looses jumping in their grading. i bred a dressage horse that had 56 points BE  as a 7 year old.


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## dominobrown (6 October 2017)

Must agree... Dabdab especially. On the continenet and Ireland there seems to be more of a plan, studbook system and its more of an industry while over here (myself included) we rely on more of a hobby breeder approach,  with no clear long term plan of what we want to produce. I don't think its just eventings problem, breeding in Britain in a whole. The really successful breeders (thinking mostly dressage studs here) have a very european approach. 
I am certainly no expert comapred to you lot (have one mare and have bred 2 foals for me to keep!)  However, and please argue and correct me where I am wrong, but what I think we need is...
- Clear studbooks, maybe split in categories for each sport
- Grading system for stallions and mares, obviously there could be cross over studs books if a stallion/ mare would be suitable for both show jumping and eventing etc.
- A clear long term plan of what we need to breed, what we need to improve on what we have and what make British horses more deseriable than continently ones, hopefully creating a proper export market where people would buy from us to take back tp wurope. Yes we need to keep good horses here etc, but if British horses were more desriable across EU and Ire then breeders would find it easier to sell and make more money making the industry sustainable?
Who on earth would pay and implement this.... ummmm I think thats a problem!


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## chipbutty (6 October 2017)

dominobrown said:



			Must agree... Dabdab especially. On the continenet and Ireland there seems to be more of a plan, studbook system and its more of an industry while over here (myself included) we rely on more of a hobby breeder approach,  with no clear long term plan of what we want to produce. I don't think its just eventings problem, breeding in Britain in a whole. The really successful breeders (thinking mostly dressage studs here) have a very european approach. 
I am certainly no expert comapred to you lot (have one mare and have bred 2 foals for me to keep!)  However, and please argue and correct me where I am wrong, but what I think we need is...
- Clear studbooks, maybe split in categories for each sport
- Grading system for stallions and mares, obviously there could be cross over studs books if a stallion/ mare would be suitable for both show jumping and eventing etc.
- A clear long term plan of what we need to breed, what we need to improve on what we have and what make British horses more deseriable than continently ones, hopefully creating a proper export market where people would buy from us to take back tp wurope. Yes we need to keep good horses here etc, but if British horses were more desriable across EU and Ire then breeders would find it easier to sell and make more money making the industry sustainable?
Who on earth would pay and implement this.... ummmm I think thats a problem!
		
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I would suggest the studbooks contribute. Its in there interest too, if we create more demand by having a better product, they will then get more revenue.  Look at the KWPN system, theres a whole host of ways to create revenue, member access etc etc. They provide a much better service than what ive seen of the SHB(GB) and AES.  Now, I'm not saying we copy that system, but there are some good ideas we could use.


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## dominobrown (6 October 2017)

Yes I agree. I have used AES as the stallion was lic3nced with them. My mare is Weatherbys reg TB, the stallion she is foal to now is KWPN so unsure who to register foal with. Bit disappointed they didn't put all the mares breeding in the foals passport, its not hard to find and they left her 'french' tb breeding blank? (Her dam's sire line)


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## cundlegreen (6 October 2017)

DabDab said:



			Good email cundlegreen, will be interesting if they respond. The results sections for the stallions are sorely lacking on their site. I think our stud books in this country are a real weakness
		
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They haven't so far. Very poor show, IMO!


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## cundlegreen (6 October 2017)

spacefaer said:



			It's really hard to find out anything about a horse's breeding in the UK

If I want to know an Irish horse's pedigree, I look on the IHR website (formerly CapellOir). If I want to know its competition results, I look on the relevant discipline's website. If I want to know the results of a particular stallion's grading, I look it up. Ditto progeny or siblings.

And all this information is available for free.

If you want to know anything about a UK horse - there's virtually nothing. 

That's one of the reasons why people go abroad, whether to Ireland or Europe - they have a much better idea of what they are buying.

I buy Irish bred horses - I have only bought one English bred horse in the last 8 years - because I know what I'm buying, in terms of bloodlines, performance and temperament.

The UK breeders have a massive problem in trying to compete with that.
		
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I agree, I also buy irish horses, and they are so much cheaper even with vetting and transport, than an equivalent one over here. Much cheaper than breeding my own, and waiting 4 years for any return, although I have earned a lot of prize money this year from showing my yearling. Much more lucrative than winning eventing!


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## cundlegreen (6 October 2017)

ihatework said:



			Cundlegreen you are spot on.
I did register my foal with SHB(GB) and his dam is graded with them but I have to say this stud book and their whole infrastructure needs a big overhaul.
Less emphasis on fat show hunters and more on sports performance (dare I say it!!)
		
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Agree totally! For me, showing is a means to an end. It gives the babies some exposure to big occasions long before they get under saddle. That's when you really know what you've got.


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## sywell (8 October 2017)

dominobrown said:



			Must agree... Dabdab especially. On the continenet and Ireland there seems to be more of a plan, studbook system and its more of an industry while over here (myself included) we rely on more of a hobby breeder approach,  with no clear long term plan of what we want to produce. I don't think its just eventings problem, breeding in Britain in a whole. The really successful breeders (thinking mostly dressage studs here) have a very european approach. 
I am certainly no expert comapred to you lot (have one mare and have bred 2 foals for me to keep!)  However, and please argue and correct me where I am wrong, but what I think we need is...
- Clear studbooks, maybe split in categories for each sport
- Grading system for stallions and mares, obviously there could be cross over studs books if a stallion/ mare would be suitable for both show jumping and eventing etc.
- A clear long term plan of what we need to breed, what we need to improve on what we have and what make British horses more deseriable than continently ones, hopefully creating a proper export market where people would buy from us to take back tp wurope. Yes we need to keep good horses here etc, but if British horses were more desriable across EU and Ire then breeders would find it easier to sell and make more money making the industry sustainable?
Who on earth would pay and implement this.... ummmm I think thats a problem!
		
Click to expand...

In the early 1990's I was involved with the Warmblood classes at the Royal Show and in the first year RASE appointed a Hunter Judge who clearly did not understand the principles of warmblood judging in the following year I helped RASE to appoint a Judges from Germany and the following year from Holland. As the Dutch judge was about to present his final lineup I went and fetched a radio mike so the spectators could hear his evaluation as he finished the winner the senior Judge of the young horse classes rushed into the arena and took the mike away and said " we do not do that sort of thing here" with that the Dutch judge walked over to the spectators and continued his comments,as he turned away the crowd started to clap. 
Many years ago at an auction in the Netherlands a dealer bought 6 horses and as he walked back to his lorry he threw the passports in the bin,Mark asked him why he did that he said he could not sell warmbloods in Ireland but could sell Irish horses of no known breeding. As an example Red Baron an Irish horse of no known breeding was registered with the FEI and when he competed in England the breeder recognised him as Miester a branded British Hanoverian she sold to Ireland. Th


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## dominobrown (8 October 2017)

sywell said:



			In the early 1990's I was involved with the Warmblood classes at the Royal Show and in the first year RASE appointed a Hunter Judge who clearly did not understand the principles of warmblood judging in the following year I helped RASE to appoint a Judges from Germany and the following year from Holland. As the Dutch judge was about to present his final lineup I went and fetched a radio mike so the spectators could hear his evaluation as he finished the winner the senior Judge of the young horse classes rushed into the arena and took the mike away and said " we do not do that sort of thing here" with that the Dutch judge walked over to the spectators and continued his comments,as he turned away the crowd started to clap. 
Many years ago at an auction in the Netherlands a dealer bought 6 horses and as he walked back to his lorry he threw the passports in the bin,Mark asked him why he did that he said he could not sell warmbloods in Ireland but could sell Irish horses of no known breeding. As an example Red Baron an Irish horse of no known breeding was registered with the FEI and when he competed in England the breeder recognised him as Miester a branded British Hanoverian she sold to Ireland. Th
		
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That sounds very sad, and hate to say it very British. Refusal to move with the times, or for people to accept what the changing sport needs. I think people are better now, but we are perfectably capable of breeding horses better than anywhere else. Its only when we are being beaten by foreign horses that we accept we need to sort things out and old ways are not the way forward.

What is your opinion on my suggestions sywell? You have obviously been involved with a long time (when I was still messing around in a nursery!!) So would value your experience and knowledge.


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## popsdosh (9 October 2017)

dominobrown said:



			Must agree... Dabdab especially. On the continenet and Ireland there seems to be more of a plan, studbook system and its more of an industry while over here (myself included) we rely on more of a hobby breeder approach,  with no clear long term plan of what we want to produce. I don't think its just eventings problem, breeding in Britain in a whole. The really successful breeders (thinking mostly dressage studs here) have a very european approach. 
I am certainly no expert comapred to you lot (have one mare and have bred 2 foals for me to keep!)  However, and please argue and correct me where I am wrong, but what I think we need is...
- Clear studbooks, maybe split in categories for each sport
- Grading system for stallions and mares, obviously there could be cross over studs books if a stallion/ mare would be suitable for both show jumping and eventing etc.
- A clear long term plan of what we need to breed, what we need to improve on what we have and what make British horses more deseriable than continently ones, hopefully creating a proper export market where people would buy from us to take back tp wurope. Yes we need to keep good horses here etc, but if British horses were more desriable across EU and Ire then breeders would find it easier to sell and make more money making the industry sustainable?
Who on earth would pay and implement this.... ummmm I think thats a problem!
		
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See I am not sure of your assumption that dressage breeding in the UK is up there and superior to Event breeding or indeed jumping in general. Quite often those that are more in your face (for want of a better expression ) are having to advertise and push their stud more.I started out 35yrs ago with one foundation mare who on the face of it was no champion,but she bred cracking foals to any stallion , Over the last 15yrs I have not had to advertise any of my produce with at least 2 in ireland ,several in the states and they are dotted around all over. Also quite a bit of British breeding does go to the continent by way of mares especially TBs.
However I dont see that BE have any particular reason to support British breeding ,why should they?


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## sywell (9 October 2017)

I think that we went wrong when the BHS split from the disciplines and did not have the ability to give them more financial freedom but retain a representative overall body. I have a limited knowledge of the German system but the FN with the agreement of its studbook structure sets the policy and guidelines on policy and and has Government representation that implements that policy. DEFRA has in the past wanted to have a single point of contact with the Equine Industry but has been frustrated by the many strong conflicting voices. It is  a nonsense that DEFRA agree to EU262(passport regs) to come in to law on 1/1/2016 and the new database by July 2016 and as yet neither has happened as we have no SI there can be no legal enforcement but the DEFRA Ministers say we have to abide by EU262 from 1/1/2016(in writing). Until we have a proper unified structure in the Industry and all bodies have equal representation and a single voice we will continue to be disregarded by Government. As an example at a meeting called by DEFRA the CEO of a body claiming to representative of the Equine Industry was part of the DEFRA panel and when she started to speak a studbook representative said "wait a minute who are you as I have never heard of you".


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## Springs (12 October 2017)

popsdosh said:



			See I am not sure of your assumption that dressage breeding in the UK is up there and superior to Event breeding or indeed jumping in general. Quite often those that are more in your face (for want of a better expression ) are having to advertise and push their stud more.I started out 35yrs ago with one foundation mare who on the face of it was no champion,but she bred cracking foals to any stallion , Over the last 15yrs I have not had to advertise any of my produce with at least 2 in ireland ,several in the states and they are dotted around all over. Also quite a bit of British breeding does go to the continent by way of mares especially TBs.
However I dont see that BE have any particular reason to support British breeding ,why should they?
		
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But why shouldn't BE support British Breeding?

The data for the 5yo young horse championships in the U.K. Was 19% British Bred, the same class in France was over 90% 

I also struggle with sending British riders on foreign Bred horses to Le Lion.... As this is a class for young horses where the recognition goes to the breeder and stud book of registration. Or am I wrong?


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## ycbm (13 October 2017)

Springs said:



			But why shouldn't BE support British Breeding?
		
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Isn't the question 'why should they'?  Why should BE members pay higher fees to support British breeders? I genuinely do not understand.  When I was competing BE, I did it on a variety of British and Irish bred horses, mostly British. As an ordinary rider competing 90/100/novice there was no shortage of horses. And it was expensive enough without paying an additional amount to support British breeders of  horses at the top of the market. 

If you believe support can be provided at no cost, can you explain exactly what support you are looking for?


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## popsdosh (13 October 2017)

Springs said:



			But why shouldn't BE support British Breeding?

The data for the 5yo young horse championships in the U.K. Was 19% British Bred, the same class in France was over 90% 

I also struggle with sending British riders on foreign Bred horses to Le Lion.... As this is a class for young horses where the recognition goes to the breeder and stud book of registration. Or am I wrong?
		
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You seem very hung up on young horse classes ,for what reason the last thing I want as a breeder is my young horses being pushed just that bit to far and im afraid you are tempted to if you qualify. They actually tell you nothing.  Go to any top rider and see if they are keen to buy a 5yo thats done a lot ! I suspect not. 
Promoting British breeding is more within the realms of the BEF and they have tried with the Futurity and the equine pathway which to some degree was designed to keep the best in the system without over competing. 
BE have no interest or need to be involved in British breeding they are a competition organisation and where the horse comes from is of no consequence.
As a breeder I am not sure what BE can do for me ,surely if the horses you breed are good enough thats what will sell them ,or are you hoping that if there was some sort of competition just for British breds.  Im sorry I want to rate my horses against all others not just British bred ones.Perhaps the next request will be competitions for those bred by one stud or such and such stallion.
Competitors at BE should feel free to buy their horses wherever its up to the breeders to up their game and make them desirable to purchase.


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## sywell (16 October 2017)

popsdosh said:



			You seem very hung up on young horse classes ,for what reason the last thing I want as a breeder is my young horses being pushed just that bit to far and im afraid you are tempted to if you qualify. They actually tell you nothing.  Go to any top rider and see if they are keen to buy a 5yo thats done a lot ! I suspect not. 
Promoting British breeding is more within the realms of the BEF and they have tried with the Futurity and the equine pathway which to some degree was designed to keep the best in the system without over competing. 
BE have no interest or need to be involved in British breeding they are a competition organisation and where the horse comes from is of no consequence.
As a breeder I am not sure what BE can do for me ,surely if the horses you breed are good enough thats what will sell them ,or are you hoping that if there was some sort of competition just for British breds.  Im sorry I want to rate my horses against all others not just British bred ones.Perhaps the next request will be competitions for those bred by one stud or such and such stallion.
Competitors at BE should feel free to buy their horses wherever its up to the breeders to up their game and make them desirable to purchase.
		
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Buying horses from anywhere not British is OK if its a level playing field many countries particularly France have financial support for the best breeders and only select French horse for some teams as so do other countries. The old saying fools breed horses for wise men to buy still holds true in the UK when to get a well bred foal on the ground costs at least £3000 and many sell for less.


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## chipbutty (16 October 2017)

sywell said:



			Buying horses from anywhere not British is OK if its a level playing field many countries particularly France have financial support for the best breeders and only select French horse for some teams as so do other countries. The old saying fools breed horses for wise men to buy still holds true in the UK when to get a well bred foal on the ground costs at least £3000 and many sell for less.
		
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The irish breeders are also getting a little help too

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/hors...ew-training-network-for-irish-breeders-166098


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## Springs (17 October 2017)

ycbm said:



			Isn't the question 'why should they'?  Why should BE members pay higher fees to support British breeders? I genuinely do not understand.  When I was competing BE, I did it on a variety of British and Irish bred horses, mostly British. As an ordinary rider competing 90/100/novice there was no shortage of horses. And it was expensive enough without paying an additional amount to support British breeders of  horses at the top of the market. 

If you believe support can be provided at no cost, can you explain exactly what support you are looking for?
		
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I have stated earlier that there is no intention for BE members to pay higher fees to support British Breeding. They shouldn't.

Support can be provided at no cost. One idea is to change the balloting system to a wait list system. so rather than being balloted out of an event you would be waitlisted. This would allow you still to compete if other withdrew or enter another event else where. This would benefit all BE competitors. 

Following on from the ballot/waitlisting we could for 4,5, 6, 7, 8 and 9yo national championship classes give priority to British Bred horses, that is they could not be waitlisted. I have had a fair number of people raising this as an issue in 6 and 7 yo classes and 5yo qualifying classes.

Prize money (yes they do sometimes pay this) could be double for British Bred at 4,5, 6, 7, 8 and 9yo championships, but this would need sponsors to agree so unlikely to happen at the moment.


That's a couple of thoughts from feedback I have had.  

I have had some feedback from a couple of the BE board members on other things they are working on which I will post on here when I have it all. The investigation into the BEF hopefully won't slow this progress.

Thanks


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## ycbm (17 October 2017)

So you want BE competitors riding English bred horses given priority entry over other members, who'll have paid the same fees, riding horses of other and unknown breeding?  If I was still competing that would make me mad. 

Wait lists already exist and I'm very confused about how you mean their would work for English horses.


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## Asha (18 October 2017)

I don't think giving British bred horses priority is the right way to go at all. Surely we need to see level playing field with the rest of the world at all times, otherwise how can we assess if we are going in the right direction.


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## popsdosh (18 October 2017)

Springs said:



			I have stated earlier that there is no intention for BE members to pay higher fees to support British Breeding. They shouldn't.

Support can be provided at no cost. One idea is to change the balloting system to a wait list system. so rather than being balloted out of an event you would be waitlisted. This would allow you still to compete if other withdrew or enter another event else where. This would benefit all BE competitors. 

Following on from the ballot/waitlisting we could for 4,5, 6, 7, 8 and 9yo national championship classes give priority to British Bred horses, that is they could not be waitlisted. I have had a fair number of people raising this as an issue in 6 and 7 yo classes and 5yo qualifying classes.

Prize money (yes they do sometimes pay this) could be double for British Bred at 4,5, 6, 7, 8 and 9yo championships, but this would need sponsors to agree so unlikely to happen at the moment.


That's a couple of thoughts from feedback I have had.  

I have had some feedback from a couple of the BE board members on other things they are working on which I will post on here when I have it all. The investigation into the BEF hopefully won't slow this progress.

Thanks
		
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There is already a waitlist system ! However many would rather not be waitlisted wanting their entry back to enter elsewhere . Why should British bred horses get preference in the entry system as they pay exactly the same fees as everybody else. I still dont quite understand what you are proposing and how it would benefit British breeders. If they produce horses that are good enough to compete with those bred elsewhere thats all the promotion they need.
Surely 4 and 5yo are the only age championships where you have to qualify through qualifiers all the others are balloted on FEI criteria which takes into account performance level of the horse if the class is over subscribed.


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## Alec Swan (18 October 2017)

Asha said:



			I don't think giving British bred horses priority is the right way to go at all. Surely we need to see level playing field with the rest of the world at all times, otherwise how can we assess if we are going in the right direction.
		
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I agree.  Should nationality be the entry criteria and should there be 'better' horses barred from entry on the grounds that they aren't British,  then it narrows the field with an almost certain decline in standards.  If British horses can't compete against those from abroad,  then the answer is that the British take a long hard look at the principles which they apply to their (our!) breeding programmes.

Alec.


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## spacefaer (18 October 2017)

Springs said:



			But why shouldn't BE support British Breeding?

The data for the 5yo young horse championships in the U.K. Was 19% British Bred, the same class in France was over 90%
		
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So far as I understood it, you can't compete in France unless you are on a French bred horse - or one that belongs to a studbook that the French National Federation recognise.


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## Alec Swan (18 October 2017)

spacefaer said:



			So far as I understood it, you can't compete in France unless you are on a French bred horse - or one that belongs to a studbook that the French National Federation recognise.
		
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So no British horses run at Pau?

Alec.


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## gunnergundog (19 October 2017)

Au contraire!


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## Clodagh (19 October 2017)

I may be dreamning but to represent France do you not need to be on a French bred horse?


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## Springs (23 October 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			I agree.  Should nationality be the entry criteria and should there be 'better' horses barred from entry on the grounds that they aren't British,  then it narrows the field with an almost certain decline in standards.  If British horses can't compete against those from abroad,  then the answer is that the British take a long hard look at the principles which they apply to their (our!) breeding programmes.

Alec.
		
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Remember we are just talking about the 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 age classes. Nothing else and from the feed back I have had form others outside of HH most agree that British Bred should have priority in these classes.


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## Springs (23 October 2017)

Anyone able to explain why we have sent British riders on foreign bred or registered horses to the WBFSH championships for young horses at LeLion dAngers? 

Isnt it the stud books that take the credit and not the country? 

Just wondering.


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## TheMule (24 October 2017)

NFs don't have to send horses bred in their country to any of the WBFSH discipline championships. The prize money goes to the individual riders/ owners, not the stud books.
There were plenty of other riders at Le Lion not mounted on horses bred in their own country


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## popsdosh (24 October 2017)

TheMule said:



			NFs don't have to send horses bred in their country to any of the WBFSH discipline championships. The prize money goes to the individual riders/ owners, not the stud books.
There were plenty of other riders at Le Lion not mounted on horses bred in their own country
		
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Exactly the OP seems to not understand the purpose of the competition it is to find the best in any age group nothing to do with studbook rivalry. The little crusade will soon flounder on where the true power lies in BE, they have no interest in British bred horses they just want the best horses wherever they come from. Sad to say many British bred horses do actually have Irish passports as it adds to their value so it is not always black and white


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## DabDab (24 October 2017)

Springs said:



			Remember we are just talking about the 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 age classes. Nothing else and from the feed back I have had form others outside of HH most agree that British Bred should have priority in these classes.
		
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You'd like separate age classes for British horses then?


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## Kathy657 (25 October 2017)

The problem here is we are still behind the Continentals and the Irish when it comes to breeding. There is no data base either, unlike the Irish Sport Horse data base. Here you can look up the dam line and see the progeny and get their competition records.


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## Springs (25 October 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Exactly the OP seems to not understand the purpose of the competition it is to find the best in any age group nothing to do with studbook rivalry. The little crusade will soon flounder on where the true power lies in BE, they have no interest in British bred horses they just want the best horses wherever they come from. Sad to say many British bred horses do actually have Irish passports as it adds to their value so it is not always black and white
		
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Your actually 100% wrong in your assumptions!

 BE are very interested in supporting British Breeding and British Bred horses in Eventing and I am in contact with two of the main board members on the subject and have had an over view on what they are doing, which is a monumental task with the attitudes of some within British Breeding who always see the problem but don't come back with ideas or solutions.

If you take time to research the WBFSH young horse classes you will see its the stud books that take the honours with the ISH being first and SHBGB in seventh, the one and only British stud book. So the winner of Mondial Le Lion D'Angers 2017 is the ISH stud book.


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## Springs (25 October 2017)

DabDab said:



			You'd like separate age classes for British horses then?
		
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It's an option to consider along with others.


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## Springs (25 October 2017)

Kathy657 said:



			The problem here is we are still behind the Continentals and the Irish when it comes to breeding. There is no data base either, unlike the Irish Sport Horse data base. Here you can look up the dam line and see the progeny and get their competition records.
		
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Yes and this is one area where we could lobby the BEF (once the investigation has finished) to make this a standard within the industry. 

I see the AES have a searchable data base, as does the futurity and BE, it would just be nice for them to be linked together to make access to the data easier.


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## DabDab (25 October 2017)

Springs said:



			It's an option to consider along with others.
		
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OK, what kind of other options?


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## popsdosh (26 October 2017)

Springs said:



			Your actually 100% wrong in your assumptions!

 BE are very interested in supporting British Breeding and British Bred horses in Eventing and I am in contact with two of the main board members on the subject and have had an over view on what they are doing, which is a monumental task with the attitudes of some within British Breeding who always see the problem but don't come back with ideas or solutions.

If you take time to research the WBFSH young horse classes you will see its the stud books that take the honours with the ISH being first and SHBGB in seventh, the one and only British stud book. So the winner of Mondial Le Lion D'Angers 2017 is the ISH stud book.
		
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Good luck is all I can say! over the years many have tried they pay lip service but never come through. There is one way only to boost British breeding in eventing and that is to compete on level terms with the the others so as to create a demand for the horses. When you start asking for favours you are already admitting failure. You create the database first then the rest will follow its that simple without it everything else is futile. You still havent answered what do you suggest that will change how 6,7,8,and9 yo are run that will make a difference? There is nothing stopping any horse competing on merit nor should there be


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## sywell (4 November 2017)

Springs said:



			Anyone able to explain why we have sent British riders on foreign bred or registered horses to the WBFSH championships for young horses at LeLion dAngers? 

Isnt it the stud books that take the credit and not the country? 

Just wondering.
		
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If you look at the results they are by studbook not rider class ordee so sending Irish Sports horses benifits the Irish not GB


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## sywell (4 November 2017)

TheMule said:



			NFs don't have to send horses bred in their country to any of the WBFSH discipline championships. The prize money goes to the individual riders/ owners, not the stud books.
There were plenty of other riders at Le Lion not mounted on horses bred in their own country
		
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The studbook of origin gets the credit not the rider or owner.


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## popsdosh (5 November 2017)

sywell said:



			The studbook of origin gets the credit not the rider or owner.
		
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The sad conclusion is that if we insisted on only sending British bred 6&7 yos to Le Lion there would be very few and sometimes none that would go as they would not be qualified to run. Sorry but in no way can you improve British bred horses by forcing riders to ride them and certainly whats the point in sending un competitive youngsters,  you can only do it by producing what the market wants and not what you think they want. The futurity and equine bridge fell down as it ended up not taking some of the most talented horses that are out there. Maybe now there has been a breath of fresh air in BE national selection it may become a bit more equal further down the tree. In the UK politics play to big a part in what gets looked at I have seen to much over the years.


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## sywell (16 December 2017)

Springs said:



			Remember the post is about British breeding and being supported by British Eventing. An earlier discussion on the futurity said that joined up cooperation between the replacement futurity, BEF, stud books and sport bodies was not possible. 

But for British Breeding to move on there has to be some cooperation, if not what is the answer?

In the similar 5yo class in France recently 91% were French bred.
		
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The problem is endemic in the structure of the equine industry and in my opinion goes back to the failure of the BHS not to have vision to have a structure that allowed the disciplines to operate with a freedom of movement but remain part of a cohesive central structure in some ways similar to the German FN. When the disciplines split I said to Col Eastwood it was wrong but he said if they are determined to go that's it. I can see the point from BD at that time because the BHS controlled their investment and charged £5 to write a cheques for them. We see from this weeks  
H &H the chaos in the administrations of the organising bodies. The Equine Industry still does not have a single agreed line with Government and DEFRA must also take the blame look at the situation horse passport legislation changed on 1/1/2016 and we approach 1/1/2018 and EU262 is still not enforceable in UK law,it's a joke the EU will look on with amusement as a senior SANCO official (a phd vet) said to me with some anger DEFRA promise everything and do nothing and that was in 2008


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## Springs (20 December 2017)

I thought it would be useful to share the initial response from the senior BE leadership on the little challenge given to them:

It was good to meet you at the AGM. For my part we are working closely with the BEF on Equine Development. As you will know this has been run in the past by XXXXXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXXX. I had a meeting recently with Dressage and Showjumping together with the BEF to look at how we can support this important area more closely going forward. As you maybe aware there is a lot of change going on in the BEF at the moment with regards to the structure and strategy and it is clear that there should be much more involvement by the member bodies going forward in terms of policy on a wide number of areas &#8211; Equine Development being one and an important one.

You should be aware also that we have recently agreed to support the Equine Bridge with free horse registrations for all horses in the eventing section.

I know that this has not answered your direct question, however it is clear to us that we do need to do more in the future.


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## Alec Swan (21 December 2017)

Lots of 'Going forward' and lots of good intent,  but a rather poorly written response.

UK Equine ownership,  registration,  organisation and decision making is to fragmented with too many opposing agendas.  If Ken Rehill was right about nothing else,  on this point he is entirely correct.

Alec.


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## honetpot (21 December 2017)

Springs said:



			I thought it would be useful to share the initial response from the senior BE leadership on the little challenge given to them:

It was good to meet you at the AGM. For my part we are working closely with the BEF on Equine Development. As you will know this has been run in the past by XXXXXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXXX. I had a meeting recently with Dressage and Showjumping together with the BEF to look at how we can support this important area more closely going forward. As you maybe aware there is a lot of change going on in the BEF at the moment with regards to the structure and strategy and it is clear that there should be much more involvement by the member bodies going forward in terms of policy on a wide number of areas &#8211; Equine Development being one and an important one.

You should be aware also that we have recently agreed to support the Equine Bridge with free horse registrations for all horses in the eventing section.

I know that this has not answered your direct question, however it is clear to us that we do need to do more in the future.
		
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Sounds like the spoof W1A. Well that's all good then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNc0oOavmnI&list=RD5VkHMB9S_wU&index=25


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## ycbm (21 December 2017)

Springs said:



			You should be aware also that we have recently agreed to support the Equine Bridge with free horse registrations for all horses in the eventing section.
		
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So ordinary BE members are paying the registration fees for the owners of elite horses. I'm sure they'll all be very happy about that. If you can afford a horse of that quality you can afford the flipping registration fee!


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## TheMule (21 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			So ordinary BE members are paying the registration fees for the owners of elite horses. I'm sure they'll all be very happy about that. If you can afford a horse of that quality you can afford the flipping registration fee!
		
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I think it's a great idea. Trust me, if you've managed to breed a good one it will have cost you countless thousands of pounds to get it to 4 years of age so the £100 saving is probably quite welcome.


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## honetpot (21 December 2017)

I think rather than give them £100 off automatic free entry to a high profile best of British breeding class with a good prize like the Cuddy


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## TheMule (21 December 2017)

honetpot said:



			I think rather than give them £100 off automatic free entry to a high profile best of British breeding class with a good prize like the Cuddy
		
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Higher firsts/ elites get a discounted entry to the Osberton in-hand classes at the young horse international I believe, but that's different to the pathway which needs to have a clear outcome for 4yr olds


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## ycbm (21 December 2017)

TheMule said:



			I think it's a great idea. Trust me, if you've managed to breed a good one it will have cost you countless thousands of pounds to get it to 4 years of age so the £100 saving is probably quite welcome.
		
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But why should a BE member doing BE80 pay more to compete to make up for the registration fee you don't have to pay?  And why on earth should they pay the entry fee of the people who have bought a well bred horse and paid a shedload more for it than they can afford for their own competition horse?


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## TheMule (21 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			But why should a BE member doing BE80 pay more to compete to make up for the registration fee you don't have to pay?  And why on earth should they pay the entry fee of the people who have bought a well bred horse and paid a shedload more for it than they can afford for their own competition horse?
		
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The pathway is/was finded by lottery money as part of the World Class programme I believe. Anyway, it is a very small number of horses in reality and the real cost of a horse membership to BE is tiny. The pathway is to support breeders first and foremost. Yes, I'm sure some horses would be sold with a 'qualification' but again, I think the numbers would be tiny.


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## ihatework (21 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			But why should a BE member doing BE80 pay more to compete to make up for the registration fee you don't have to pay?  And why on earth should they pay the entry fee of the people who have bought a well bred horse and paid a shedload more for it than they can afford for their own competition horse?
		
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Because ultimately it&#8217;s a pyramid system - we need to fund and support the elite horses for future teams. The more successful and higher profile the sport, the more gets invested back in at the lower levels.


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## ycbm (21 December 2017)

ihatework said:



			Because ultimately its a pyramid system - we need to fund and support the elite horses for future teams. The more successful and higher profile the sport, the more gets invested back in at the lower levels.
		
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The pyramid is the other way up. BE is funded predominantly by the money paid in by low level riders.


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## ihatework (21 December 2017)

For sure. But do you really think there would be a BE if all that was in offer was 90-110cm stuff?!


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## ycbm (21 December 2017)

ihatework said:



			For sure. But do you really think there would be a BE if all that was in offer was 90-110cm stuff?!
		
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Yes. There are many venues that only run at that height. There is massive demand for competition at that height. Most competitors never compete higher than 110.  I see no reason, since that height is what pays the bills anyway, why that would stop. Why do you think it would?

I've looked up the lottery funding and as far as I can see it goes, many, many millions of it, exclusively to elite riders and none to grass roots level, which all pays its own way.


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## honetpot (21 December 2017)

I can not think why a BE member would want to support British breeding, looking at results there is no clear benefit to the rider of buying British. Its a lovely ideal but in reality everyone has a pot of money and they are going to buy the best they can afford from where ever it comes.
  The government does not want to support it, there are no tax advantages for the breeder, in fact its just a money pit. At least if there was a well supported production series with a couple of big venues and large cash prize you would get a bit of kudos and a nice day out.
  We already have SHGB, which is fairly open and has lots of opportunities, why start something else which is likely to have a very small base to the pyramid and even tinier elite end user, if they chose not to buy abroad.
 If you compare it to supermarkets, they are trying to M&S and Waitrose, selling product that has no track record when most buy from Aldi and Lidl, because there is more choice and its cheaper.


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## ihatework (21 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			Yes. There are many venues that only run at that height. There is massive demand for competition at that height. Most competitors never compete higher than 110.  I see no reason, since that height is what pays the bills anyway, why that would stop. Why do you think it would?

I've looked up the lottery funding and as far as I can see it goes, many, many millions of it, exclusively to elite riders and none to grass roots level, which all pays its own way.
		
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Well I&#8217;m afraid I disagree. I think you are very blinkered in your views.
But then I suppose my opinion is no surprise


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## ycbm (21 December 2017)

ihatework said:



			Well I&#8217;m afraid I disagree. I think you are very blinkered in your views.
But then I suppose my opinion is no surprise 

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I would be quite happy to hear you explain  why you think BE 80/90/100/110 could not survive without intermediate, advanced and international level competition.  I have explained why I think they can, but you have not yet presented any reasons why they can't. I am open to persuasion if you have any coherent argument in support of your 'because that's what I believe' stance.

I don't see how you can accuse me of being blinkered to your argument when you haven't actually presented one


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## ihatework (21 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			I would be quite happy to hear you explain  why you think BE 80/90/100/110 could not survive without intermediate, advanced and international level competition.  I have explained why I think they can, but you have not yet presented any reasons why they can't. I am open to persuasion if you have any coherent argument in support of your 'because that's what I believe' stance.

I don't see how you can accuse me of being blinkered to your argument when you haven't actually presented one 

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Apologies I had more important things to do than get into an argument with you.

I think there is a massive market for 80-110 but it would be under a different umberella if there were no higher levels on offer.

British eventing is the organising body for top flight sport. For top flight sport there needs to be that pyramid in place to train the horses up through. The ratio of pro:am obviously changes the higher you climb BUT those pro horses all have to come through the lower levels. The whole structure is there for a reason. Grassrootes stuff is critical to the base of the pyramid, but if there was no decent upper level competition there would be no pro&#8217;s bringing horses through the lower levels. To quote a retired event rider &#8216;they have no desire to scrub around pre nervous&#8217;.
There would be no national teams, no sponsorship reason, no access to prestigious venues. There would be no reason for BE to exist.

But that is diverting from the point of the OP, which was about supporting British breeding. Now that is a tangled web and would require some serious investment and joined up thinking that I can&#8217;t see happening. It&#8217;s not really BEs responsibility, but equally some small supportive financial input wouldn&#8217;t be wrong. No one is forcing anyone to take out BE membership if they don&#8217;t like how their money is being spent.


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## honetpot (21 December 2017)

I sorry its a market led economy. Top flight riders make their living from selling horses, lessons etc, they do not make a living out of competeing unless you have a serious sponsor. I would imagine most of those horses never go over 100, and they are sold to homes that are non-professional, that are never going to have the funding to go to the higher levels.

  Any money in horses like most sports is made out of selling kit/lifestyle, to people with little or no aspiration to top level competition. They spent all that money on 2012, yet it has not increased participation of people in sport, especially women. It could be argued that from the results so far, investment at lower level, gets more of us off our bottoms and out doing. Which means more lessons and more kit, and of course you need a brand , lead by someone who has a smart horse and that where they get the money to buy one, probably from abroad.
  2012 proved that investment in top athletes and venues does not filter down. Judy Murray has probably produced more champions working on her own than the whole of the LTA which has invested millions in different infinitives. 
  The British are excellent at shopping, that where they get the money from.


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## ihatework (21 December 2017)

honetpot said:



			I sorry its a market led economy. Top flight riders make their living from selling horses, lessons etc, they do not make a living out of competeing unless you have a serious sponsor. I would imagine most of those horses never go over 100, and they are sold to homes that are non-professional, that are never going to have the funding to go to the higher levels
		
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Very true. But what is it do you think that drives the lessons/horse sales?
It&#8217;s competing in the public eye and getting yourself known. Competing is a riders advertising (in addition to being the part of horses that generally keeps them interested in the game!)


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## ycbm (21 December 2017)

So if I read you right, IHW, we are arguing over what it would be called, not whether it would exist.  

You do seem to accept that, forgetting about what it's called, the lower levels can exist as a sport in its own right, fully financed, without the levels at the top. Yet it seems obvious to me that the levels at the top can't exist at all without the levels at the bottom. 

If there weren't people competing at Novice in great numbers for whom that level is the pinnacle of their ambitions or ability, there would be nowhere for advanced horses to learn their trade. Or for professionals to showcase their young horses for sale. 

And if there weren't people competing in vast numbers at 80/90/100, there wouldn't be the money for BE to exist at all.


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## ycbm (21 December 2017)

Apologies I had more important things to do than get into an argument with you.
		
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Apology accepted. Next time could you refrain from calling me too blinkered to listen to your argument before you have time to say what it is


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## ihatework (21 December 2017)

Where have I said the lower levels couldnt support themselves *scratcheshead*
They sure could. But the structure and opportunities/venues would not be as is offered via BE today. Part of the whole appeal is that Ann Smith on Bob the Cob can compete against WFP etc. Its quite a unique sport in my mind and I stick to my guns that if the higher levels were not there BE as we know it would not exist.
Bit of a pointless argument though, given this was really about British breeding. Im out


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## ycbm (21 December 2017)

You've already said above that the top riders don't use the grass roots levels. People competing up to 110 are  mostly doing it for the self satisfaction, not to very occasionally compete against the top names on whose behalf they largely finance the whole sport. 


This thread was about BE using funds supplied by lower level riders to support the breeders and riders of elite British horses. It seems pretty relevant to me.


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## ihatework (21 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			You've already said above that the top riders don't use the grass roots levels.
		
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Please point out where I said that as I am now genuinely confused!


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## ycbm (21 December 2017)

ihatework said:



			Please point out where I said that as I am now genuinely confused!
		
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I thought you were busy  ?


Post 90




			To quote a retired event rider &#8216;they have no desire to scrub around pre nervous&#8217;.
		
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Pro elite riders don't waste their time below Novice unless they've not got decent experienced horses to ride. Pippa Funnel did one 100 and only 6 novice this year in approaching 100 entries.


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## ihatework (21 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			I thought you are busy  ?


Post 90
		
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Ahhh up to the old tricks I see. Interpreting something in your own way and missing everything else said!

I will explain it to you. A competitive pro generally has no great desires to spend their days doing PN. However they do it for a reason. Either the production of horses to sell to put dinner on the table, or the education of a horse that might go all the way. If they can&#8217;t even bare to do that they let the stable jockey ride it round the PN.
No where did I say pros don&#8217;t use the lower levels. In fact I actually said pro horses had to be bought up through the levels.


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## honetpot (21 December 2017)

I still have not seen why grassroots BE riders should fund British breeding. The chances of getting a British bred horse to the top levels are slim and the chances of them riding it are virtually non existent.
  If the reason that grassroots exists is to support elite and provide riders with potential rides it should be explicitly stated as part as the membership package and should be voted on. I bet most BE members join so they can compete and if there was an alternative they would go else where.


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## ycbm (21 December 2017)

ihatework said:



			Ahhh up to the old tricks I see. Interpreting something in your own way and missing everything else said!

I will explain it to you. A competitive pro generally has no great desires to spend their days doing PN. However they do it for a reason. Either the production of horses to sell to put dinner on the table, or the education of a horse that might go all the way. If they can&#8217;t even bare to do that they let the stable jockey ride it round the PN.
No where did I say pros don&#8217;t use the lower levels. In fact I actually said pro horses had to be bought up through the levels.
		
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I don't think I've missed anything, and you certainly used a quote which I believe was meant as I read it by the person who said it. 

In general, they  don't use the lower levels! 

If you cheeck the records, elite Pro riders do not ride below Novice unless they have no other horses to ride, and many of them use work riders to ride their horses at that level too.

You used the example of the opportunity to compete against elite riders as a key reason why grass roots riders want to do BE and that BE at grassroots level would not be recognisable as BE if they weren't there.  Since the opportunity to do that is so slim, I just can't see your argument, I'm sorry.


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## ycbm (21 December 2017)

honetpot said:



			I bet most BE members join so they can compete and if there was an alternative they would go else where.
		
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I'm with you there HP. I don't believe the majority of BE80/90/100/novice riders are really that bothered whether we are competitive on a world stage at all, and certainly not to the extent that they would stop competing if we had no international riders.


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## ihatework (21 December 2017)

Agreed many use work riders at 90/100,
But there is a noticeable trend towards the elite riders riding their good young ones at 100 themselves. Maybe only once or twice, but they do. 
If I had time I&#8217;d look up all the team GB riders and see what % had ridden at least one 100/5YO in the last 3 seasons.

Even the great AN, who never started a horse below novice, has been out 100 in recent seasons. I&#8217;m actually seeing many mid level pros utilise open 90, my friend does regularly, as do other names. But not the elites in general. 100 they do.


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