# how do you get a horse into an outline???



## AprilBlue (6 September 2012)

i've been all over the internet searchin about how to get a horse into an outline, wiggling my fingers doesn't work, engaging the horses hocks doesn't work and how do i get the horses back to relax??

my main question is, how do you get a horse into an outline

thanks


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## joeanne (6 September 2012)

Get an instructor to work with you and the horse.


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## Equi (6 September 2012)

By encouraging a low head carriage. Do this by opening your hands and placing them down towards your knees.


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## AprilBlue (6 September 2012)

my instructor said (because i ride at a riding school) that the horse i am on would not understand it and he would fling his head about everywhere even if a dressage champion would try. 

but, a couple of weeks ago, i was just riding the same horse and he started going into a really nice outline, i don't know how i done it but he hasn't done it ever since! any tips?  

i don't want to force the horse to do it just to let you know, i want it to come naturally


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## Tiarella (6 September 2012)

Some horses are never taught to go in an outline, they build their neck and back muscles the wrong way and then find it difficult or just totally dont understand when being asked.


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## mcnaughty (6 September 2012)

Draw reins ;-)


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## Elf On A Shelf (6 September 2012)

Damned good riding, a good seat, quiet hands, a feel for a horse and patience.

Not as someone said above - putting your hands at your knees - utter tosh!

Alternatively you can go down Mcnaughty's route of Draw Reins  If so then whack them on and hold on to them as tight as possible


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## Blitzen (6 September 2012)

Naughty naughty, mcnaughty!


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## Tammytoo (6 September 2012)

Unfortunately, with a riding school horse,you are on to a bit of a lot cause if he is not regularly and properly schooled by the instructors.  With so many different people riding him the poor chap probably hasn't a clue what is needed or has given up trying and switched off.  Could you find an freelance instructor who is prepared to give lessons on her own horse so that you can learn on a properly schooled horse?


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## Luci07 (6 September 2012)

You can't. A horse going correctly in an outline is the outcome of a lot of training and building up the correct muscle, it's a result not a goal.  When you start training babies, you do short sessions to build them up. Too much force and you have a sore, unhappy horse.


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## guido16 (6 September 2012)

equi said:



			By encouraging a low head carriage. Do this by opening your hands and placing them down towards your knees.
		
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Oh my god.


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## Mongoose11 (6 September 2012)

Perhaps Equi is badly describing how to create an exaggerated inside bend rather than an outline which would be secondary?

Can anyone actually describe how, as in a process? I can only 'feel it' really and I have only been able to feel it for a short time since I have been working with a great trainer (previous hooner round the countryside)


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## *hic* (6 September 2012)

equi said:



			By encouraging a low head carriage. Do this by opening your hands and placing them down towards your knees.
		
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guido16 said:



			Oh my god.
		
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Not really worth an OMG There is no "one size fits all" solution and that method is a useful tool to have at your disposal for some horses at some stages of training, certainly one I've seen used by people who are almost certainly riding, competing and instructing at a higher level than you, or I, or many of the posters on this forum are likely to be able to aspire to


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## Blitzen (6 September 2012)

Hopefully Equi is joking...


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## WestCoast (6 September 2012)

I'm starting to wonder of this outline thing is all its cracked up to be.

As a teenager we'd never heard of it - horse got hacked out everywhere with lots of hills and logs to jump, which probably got his rear end under him nicely. Did pony club stuff and no one mentioned it although you kinda knew you he was going well if he was moving freely forwards and dropped his head, never dreamed of all this horrible tugging on the reins you see these days. 

Drag hunted and team chased and, again, tugging on the reins reserved for moments of over excitement when horse was heading flat out towards immovable object. 

I know, I know, I'm very ignorant but it all looks so artificial. 

Paula


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## pardalis (6 September 2012)

I'm with you Paula. It certainly seems to be a fashion and a bit of an obsession and really something that shouldn't be focused on when schooling. 
Lots of other things to perfect first and a horses head carriage along with how it holds itself will follow.


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## Littlelegs (6 September 2012)

An outline comes from a horse moving forwards, & working with its back end under it, using the back muscles. Although some horses look like they may be in an outline with their heads held in, the head has little to do with it. A horse in a correct outline ends up with its head in a certain position because of the rest of its body, not through just what you do with its head & the reins. Easiest thing to compare it too imo is ballet. You don't just one day stick on a pair of points to support your toes, & start dancing like darcy bussell (sp?). You spend years training the rest of your body to stretch & gain the correct muscles to allow you to place your weight on your toes & have your ankle straight. And a horse is similar. You spend years working the horse in a long low outline, & over those years you gradually ask the horse to work in a more rounded outline with a more upright head position. Now most horses can carry themselves in an upright round outline in the field for a few minutes, even as a foal. But to do it for a longer period, with the hindrance of a rider requires time to build the muscles. So I imagine that's why your instructor says the horse can't. And its something you need an instructor to show you on a horse that can do it. An easy way to tell if a horse is working in a proper outline, rather than just having its head held in place is to look at the poll. If a horse has its head upright & its neck arched, in a competition position, & its poll is lower than its neck, its not truly rounded & working properly. Other place to look is in front of the withers, the neck should go up, not down.


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## showqa (6 September 2012)

IMHO, you shouldn't even really be thinking about it. There's too much emphasis on where the head is rather than what is happening behind the saddle and the rider's leg. Essentially, for a horse to be in an outline it has to be working over its back, and from behind with it's pelvis tucked under. If the horse isn't engaged behind then there's no chance of a true outline being produced - only a false one, which is both pointless and dangerous to the muscular development of the horse. As another poster has said, it takes a long time for a horse to develop physically in this way. With my horse, I don't DO anything infront as such, I work the horse very much from behind, lots of transitions, getting him moving forward and in front of my leg and allowing with my hands. It's no coincidence that once he's properly working, he offers an outline naturally.

I would much rather see a horse in his natural outline but actually going forward and working correctly, than shuffling around with his head tucked in and his back end going nowhere.


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## popeyesno1fan (6 September 2012)

Tammytoo said:



			Unfortunately, with a riding school horse,you are on to a bit of a lot cause if he is not regularly and properly schooled by the instructors.  With so many different people riding him the poor chap probably hasn't a clue what is needed or has given up trying and switched off.  Could you find an freelance instructor who is prepared to give lessons on her own horse so that you can learn on a properly schooled horse?
		
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Tammytoo, you have a very valid point, I see the local riding school ponies and you'd want a miracle for most of them, however, I took Cooper, my best horse ever, out of the riding school, and he transformed. He was in an outline after about two months, and had never been schooled properly before. (He was braindead in the ridingschool). I think he was grateful not to have anymore beginners on his back, he switched his brain back on for me. 
Saying that, if the op only has the use of a riding school pony once a week, she is prob at nothing. the smallies will undo the good work. 
Forcing it doesnt work, you really do need to get them using those hind quarters properly and it does come from there. xx


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## Mythical (6 September 2012)

A wise lady once told me "you don't ask for the outline; the horse gives you the outline as a reward for riding well"  sort of flowery but I like it.

Forget round for now and focus on getting the horse forward, straight and bendy in the corners. An RS horse may or may not tuck his nose in for you but you'll be better equipped to get your own horse into that nice shape in the future.  If you're already working with your own horse, it'll soon start to drop into that nice round shape, but believe me, it's much easier with an instructor to help!

FWIW, it IS possible to get a RS horse into an outline; I know, I've done it, but that was THAT horse, at THAT RS, chosen because I'd spoken to and listened to my instructor about my riding goals and worked with them both to achieve it.


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## FfionWinnie (6 September 2012)

Could we have some photo examples of good and bad outlines please?


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## wench (6 September 2012)

Horse not forced to "soon" come into a "proper" outline. I had one of my previous horses five years, and it was only really working at the end as I had a couple of lessons from a dressage instructor. 

I needed loads more, but horse was on livery at an rs, so no external instructors


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## georgiegirl (6 September 2012)

You just stick a bubble bit in and wiggle your hands about innit?!?! 

Seriously though.....if its not something you have worked toward before you need to find a good instructor to help you along the way and an even bigger advantage is if you can have a sit on an experienced horse a few times in order to get the feel of what your meant to be feeling for!


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## showpony (6 September 2012)

Hold contact and push horse into bridle by resisting and using your seat!


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## AprilBlue (6 September 2012)

yh i agree with all of you lot, thanks for the replies.

unfortunately he isn't my horse and i don't even own a horse so i can't really work with him as much as i would like to 

in my riding school, we have only one instructor that teaches my lesson and i don't think she really cares (if thats the right word:s) about dressage only because my yard is more of a showjuming yard but i'm not saying she doesn't know much about dressage please don't get me wrong but i don't want to move RS and in my lessons we don't really do dressage or anything like that, even though i suggest it after every lesson *sigh*

remember that my lesson has only 1 available instructor

thanks for the replies


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## Tiasmum (6 September 2012)

Sorry if I repeat anything, haven't read all the replies.

Working on the bit isn't about where the head is, it's about the entire body. The aim being to engage hindquarters and lighten the forehand. If the behind isn't engaged all you'll have is a forced outline and taking short cuts. I think to often instructors can have you working a horse in an outline but don't explain why or how the horse is supposed to be working.

Warm up - concentrate on a good rhythm and suppleness on both reins ensuring that the pace is nice and forward. energy. Suppleness - 10m circles, serpentines.

Then start with Transitions - walk to trot, halt (square) to trot leg yielding out from a 10m in walk and trot as you hit the track and so on. This can also be done in sitting trot. 

When the horse is working correctly you can ask for an outline, hard work for a horse so keep it short.


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## WestCoast (6 September 2012)

No one ever tells us how to get a good outline past the invisible school corner monster.  

Is moving sideways and snorting like a dragon compatible with correct head and hind end carriage?

Paula


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## cheeryplatypus (6 September 2012)

You have to really hold your core muscles and sit down properly while asking your horse to work forward...it's hard!


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## showpony (6 September 2012)

[
agree

aQUOTE=Tiasmum;11050766]Sorry if I repeat anything, haven't read all the replies.

Working on the bit isn't about where the head is, it's about the entire body. The aim being to engage hindquarters and lighten the forehand. If the behind isn't engaged all you'll have is a forced outline and taking short cuts. I think to often instructors can have you working a horse in an outline but don't explain why or how the horse is supposed to be working.

Warm up - concentrate on a good rhymth and suppleness on both reins ensuring that the pace is nice and forward. energy. Suppleness - 10m circles, serpentines.

Then start with Transitions - walk to trot, halt (square) to trot leg yielding out from a 10m in walk and trot as you hit the track and so on. This can also be done in sitting trot. 

When the horse is working correctly you can ask for an outline, hard work for a horse so keep it short.[/QUOTE]


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## Luci07 (6 September 2012)

Paulag said:



			No one ever tells us how to get a good outline past the invisible school corner monster.  

Is moving sideways and snorting like a dragon compatible with correct head and hind end carriage?

Paula
		
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So when my youngster decides there are mythical dragons lurking in an innocent corner of the school, he will be asked to do something like a shoulder in or quarters out. Same on a hack. Gives him something else to think about!

Some very good explanations here. If you want to see a good outline watch some of our top level dressage riders, in fact the para riders prob show the best example as they can't simply haul in their horses front end. As I said before, an outline is a result not a goal. The horse is in a balanced rhythm, coming through from behind into your contact and you can see that the back looks soft and connected. A bad outline. Easy. Horse has head tucked in but looks to have the rest of its body trailing miles away and unconnected. I could show you this on my old mare. Due to arthritis in her neck, she is physically unable to soften into the contact and use herself properly. If you put your leg on she will actually drop heed head into a false outline but its not through all her body as she just can't do it. She is ridden off the seat on a light loose contact but at 24, this is what works best for her.


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## dumpling (6 September 2012)

Its various things- Getting your horse forward, off your leg, stepping under himself, flexing easily without being stiff. He must take the contact forward and you must 'hold' it but let him go as such. Lots of transitions etc. inside leg to inside hand.


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## dumpling (6 September 2012)

Tha should be outside hand!!


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## sidesaddlegirl (7 September 2012)

Tiasmum said:



			Sorry if I repeat anything, haven't read all the replies.

Working on the bit isn't about where the head is, it's about the entire body. The aim being to engage hindquarters and lighten the forehand. If the behind isn't engaged all you'll have is a forced outline and taking short cuts. I think to often instructors can have you working a horse in an outline but don't explain why or how the horse is supposed to be working.

Warm up - concentrate on a good rhythm and suppleness on both reins ensuring that the pace is nice and forward. energy. Suppleness - 10m circles, serpentines.

Then start with Transitions - walk to trot, halt (square) to trot leg yielding out from a 10m in walk and trot as you hit the track and so on. This can also be done in sitting trot. 

When the horse is working correctly you can ask for an outline, hard work for a horse so keep it short.
		
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I agree THIS^^^^^^

This is what I've been doing with my YO's horse (16yrs old mare, only ever ridden in a 3 ring dutch gag with her head up in the air- now swapped to a fat mouth eggbutt snaffle) and she rewarded me two days ago with suddenly softening and lowering her head in a walk for a few strides and did it again yesterday on the her hard, stiff left rein for a few strides. It was very hard work for her to do that so you have to keep it short and sweet.


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## xTrooperx (7 September 2012)

I got told (shouted at by ri) start with your seat, once your correctly positioned, your seat will help the horse bring their hind legs underneath which helps with the forward motion, and sure others can go from there..


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## LJN (7 September 2012)

Paulag said:



			I'm starting to wonder of this outline thing is all its cracked up to be.
I know, I know, I'm very ignorant but it all looks so artificial. 

Paula
		
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When I school my boy, I spend the first 15 mins letting him cruise round on a long rein, stomping about and getting rid of all of his silly excess energy. Then when he is relaxed I take up a very light contact and use my seat as much as possible to regulate his pace. I do lots of cirlcles, lots of leg yeild etc and he brings himself into an outline all by himself when he is concentrating - I would never dream of forcing him as I think you achieve far more when the horse is relaxed rather than fighting the rider. 
I do think it is important to work in an outline sometimes though - as I understand it, working in an outline builds the muscles in the horses back and hind quarters?


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## paddy (7 September 2012)

LJN said:



			he brings himself into an outline all by himself
		
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This!  If you get the relaxation right, the balance right, the rhythm right, the 'straightness' right (even on a bend), the impulsion right and the collection right, your horse will be going in an outline.  Getting my horse to go correctly (which I hope is what you mean, rather than going around with his nose on the vertical) is what my trainer has been teaching in the past two year's worth of lessons.  It doesn't really distil very well into a post, but when you get it, you'll find yourself beaming!

Or of course, you could just 'tweaky tweaky' at the reins (one trainer did actually tell me to do this every time my horse poked his nose out), and push with your legs and seat and you'll keep a lot of people happy, although possibly not your horse ;-)

I do think the word 'outline' should be banned...


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## M_G (7 September 2012)

EKW said:



			Not as someone said above - putting your hands at your knees - utter tosh!

QUOTE]

you beat me to that answer haha
		
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## Littlelegs (7 September 2012)

Of course hands shouldn't be fixed near your knees. You should move them alternately between your knee, & at least a foot behind, of course with a firm grip. And of course, the magnificent result is a horse who's hind legs come no further forward than level with its stifle. And you get to look cool cos as the horses mouth gets harder you can move to more severe bits, thus proving to all & sundry your extreme skill as a rider.


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## Elf On A Shelf (7 September 2012)

I'm going to go and ride my TB like this now - hands on knees, bent double, heels up and digging into his ribs - see how long it takes me to either A. be tanked off with. B. be bucked off or C. my horse plants and goes vertical because he has no where else to go.

Place your bets now please people - A, B or C!


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## LaurenBay (7 September 2012)

showqa said:



			IMHO, you shouldn't even really be thinking about it. There's too much emphasis on where the head is rather than what is happening behind the saddle and the rider's leg. Essentially, for a horse to be in an outline it has to be working over its back, and from behind with it's pelvis tucked under. If the horse isn't engaged behind then there's no chance of a true outline being produced - only a false one, which is both pointless and dangerous to the muscular development of the horse. As another poster has said, it takes a long time for a horse to develop physically in this way. With my horse, I don't DO anything infront as such, I work the horse very much from behind, lots of transitions, getting him moving forward and in front of my leg and allowing with my hands. It's no coincidence that once he's properly working, he offers an outline naturally.

I would much rather see a horse in his natural outline but actually going forward and working correctly, than shuffling around with his head tucked in and his back end going nowhere.
		
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You sound like my instructor!

I asked about working in an outline. Her reply was something along of this....
Your Horse can not maintain an outline as she isn't built up enough behind. No point in strapping her head down with gagdets as this isn't a true outline. Lets work on getting her off your leg instead and correctly working her hinds. By the end of that lesson, Ruby was starting to drop her head without me having to use my hands at all! it all came from getting her off my leg. 

We are still a work in progress, but now I fully understand, I am in no rush to get her in an outline. We do lots of hacking and 1 schooling session a week. My aim is to get her infront of the leg and listening to my seat and not relying on my hands. 

We will get there when she is stonger and I am a better rider!


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## DanaHart (7 September 2012)

Echo others...... get the horse working correctly from behind, engage the hindquarters, straightness, suppleness and in front of the leg, then worry about where the head is....... if all the above is correct, then the horse should automatically drop the nose.....

Example of 'on the bit'






Example of NOT 'on the bit'


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## Farma (7 September 2012)

DanaHart said:



			Echo others...... get the horse working correctly from behind, engage the hindquarters, straightness, suppleness and in front of the leg, then worry about where the head is....... if all the above is correct, then the horse should automatically drop the nose.....

Example of 'on the bit'






Example of NOT 'on the bit'





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I'm really sorry if this is controversial but the first pic doesn't look like a horse truly on the bit, although it is in an outline it looks held by the riders arm almost straight with an inward hand, and tilted forward slightly.


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## TigerTail (7 September 2012)

OP from a couple of other threads you've started recently I really think you are trying to run before you can walk with getting the horse in an outline. This is not something that happens over night, or that you will achieve correctly on a random horse you ride occasionally. Done properly it is the result of the horse being strong enough through his hind end and back and to have proper impulsion, not being pulled there by gadgets or the rider.

Suggest you get Heather Moffetts Enlightened Equitation book and start at the beginning and work your way through 

The horse should be in self carriage if its in a true outline, not being put there by the rider like the above pic (terribly sorry but that is not correct) So there should be loops in the reins, the horses head is neither behind or in front of the vertical and the poll is still the highest point. They will be tracking up equally and have serious power in the hindquarters ready to piaffe/passage walk/canter etc etc


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## Cortez (7 September 2012)

Farma said:



			I'm really sorry if this is controversial but the first pic doesn't look like a horse truly on the bit, although it is in an outline it looks held by the riders arm almost straight with an inward hand, and tilted forward slightly.
		
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Afraid I'm going to agree with you here; The horse is behind the vertical, your arm is creating a broken line to the mouth, the horse's footfall is incorrect and it's on the forehand. Beware of making statements / posting pics on HHO! second picture is actually preferable!


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## Wagtail (7 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			So there should be loops in the reins,
		
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There _*should*_ be loops in the reins?  Typo?


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## Wagtail (7 September 2012)

Cortez said:



			Afraid I'm going to agree with you here; The horse is behind the vertical, your arm is creating a broken line to the mouth, the horse's footfall is incorrect and it's on the forehand. Beware of making statements / posting pics on HHO! second picture is actually preferable!
		
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Agree.


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## Littlelegs (7 September 2012)

Sorry, I too agree with farma & cortez.


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## Armas (7 September 2012)

So whats the difference with a outline & long & low ?


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## Cortez (7 September 2012)

A 'long and low' outline is just that; longer and lower than a regular, working frame.


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## TigerTail (7 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			There _*should*_ be loops in the reins?  Typo?
		
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In true self carriage yes there SHOULD (!) be loops in the reins as the horse is capable of taking the bit forward without coming out of the outline or needing the riders hands for support.


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## Cortez (7 September 2012)

Sorry, that's a bit disingenuous - you'd take a horse long and low for part of its' warm up  perhaps, or for a break, or loosening, but then return it to a 'normal' outline for regular work. A horse should be able/willing to work wherever the trainer puts it.


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## Cortez (7 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			In true self carriage yes there SHOULD (!) be loops in the reins as the horse is capable of taking the bit forward without coming out of the outline or needing the riders hands for support. 






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Well, there are many who would argue with you on that: not too many loops at the olympics, eh?


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## Queenbee (7 September 2012)

Cortez said:



			Afraid I'm going to agree with you here; The horse is behind the vertical, your arm is creating a broken line to the mouth, the horse's footfall is incorrect and it's on the forehand. Beware of making statements / posting pics on HHO! second picture is actually preferable!
		
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sorry I agree too


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## TigerTail (7 September 2012)

Er no Cortez but that is not classical dressage, its modern dressage which has become very much polluted. Hence all the rolkur threads about using force of hand and bicep to haul the horse in to the 'correct' position rather than using correct training so it can carry itself there.


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## Wagtail (7 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			In true self carriage yes there SHOULD (!) be loops in the reins as the horse is capable of taking the bit forward without coming out of the outline or needing the riders hands for support. 






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If the rider is really skilled then the feeling in the rein should be light as a feather but I hate seeing loops in the rein unless it is western. Loops can happen if the horse is afraid of the bit too. I like to see a straight line from the elbow to the bit but no real weight in the reins. The horse does not lean but can feel the rider's hands.


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## Cortez (7 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			Er no Cortez but that is not classical dressage, its modern dressage which has become very much polluted. Hence all the rolkur threads about using force of hand and bicep to haul the horse in to the 'correct' position rather than using correct training so it can carry itself there.
		
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Agree totally: don't much like most modern dressage riding - except for the lovely "new" British School - all hail Carl & Charlotte!


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## Sugar_and_Spice (7 September 2012)

I agree with cortez too. The second pic, whilst not "on the bit" (its slightly above the bit) is closer to it. The first pic, the poll isn't the highest point (which it should be) and the horse is over bent, which is worse than being above the bit.

Little legs I was horrified by your last post, thinking, but she normally talks sense! Until I got to the end of your post and realised you were taking the mickey. Yeh the numpties often do exactly what you've described and I feel so sorry for the horses ridden like this.

Mythical, I like that quote about the horse offering an outline as a reward for good riding. If the rider doesn't hold their position well (the rider outline, if you like) the horse can't carry himself in an outline under the rider. Riders need to work on themselves before working on the horse.

Paulag, you said something along the lines of you're ignorant of outline and not fussed but hey ho maybe you're no good. (sorry I can't remember exactly what you said). I disagree, you're not a bad rider from that description, you're someone who won't damage a horse through trying to force an outline. That's a good thing.

OP, to answer your question, think of a round outline (the you're aiming for) as a "n" shape, a tense hollow outline as a "u" shape, and a flat relaxed outline as a "-" shape. So if you have a tense hollow horse, the first thing you need is for it to relax. It's easier to get from "-" to "n", than to get from "u" to "n". Hope that makes sense. 

Horses relax by being allowed to stretch through their neck and back, by the rider having a balanced position and not holding onto the reins too tightly or having the reins too short. Sometimes when the contact becomes heavy its not the horse tipping onto the forehand more and leaning on the bit, its the horse relaxing and trying to take the rein forward to lower the neck. In this instance rather than asking the horse to pick himself up and go forward, which you would if he was leaning, you need to let the reins out a little so the horse can stretch. Sometimes you have to offer the chance to stretch, the horse won't always ask. Some horses find stretching very hard at first and will only do it for a few moments before going hollow again. To be relaxed the horse also needs to be supple laterally (side to side), so circles and corners etc need to be ridden properly with the horse bending round the riders inside leg, rather than leaning in onto the horses inside shoulder and cutting corners. 

A round outline is achieved by engaging the hocks, but the horse needs first to be relaxed before the hocks can be engaged. Engagement is achieved with transitions, lateral work (horse moving forwards and sideways at the same time, by crossing the legs) and tighter turns etc. As the hocks engage, the quarters lower, the back raises and when those two things happen, the head automatically comes down and the "n" shape is created. Think of the bars of the letter "n" as the head/neck and the quarters and the top of the letter "n" as the back. Hope this helps.

To the poster asking if "loops in the reins" which someone mentioned, was a typo. No, its not. A horse in self-carriage may have a very light contact on the mouth. The weight of the reins themselves may provide the contact without any pressure from the riders hands. Many classical dressage riders aim to ultimately ride like this. This is also how horses ridden in bitless brides, and western trained horses, can be moving in a balanced round outline, with either no bit and/or no obvious contact on the mouth.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (7 September 2012)

That's interesting what some have said about the Olympics. I enjoyed watching the dressage, but considering these are supposed to be the worlds elite, I was disappointed by some of the riding and the tension shown in some of the horses. I thought I was the only one who felt this way. It's nice to know I'm not alone.


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## AprilBlue (7 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			OP from a couple of other threads you've started recently I really think you are trying to run before you can walk with getting the horse in an outline. 

i sorry but i was only asking for advice and help, i just want to have the knowledge for when i'm older and when i will be able to get a horse. i'm just trying to be prepared. one my threads: list of horsey things to do, it was either me or someone else(i can't remember) said that i should read every scrap of equine information i can so i'm doing my best. It's better to be safe than sorry.

of course im not going to try an outline at my RS because the horses don't know what it is but i'm just trying to learn more about horses and riding so i can improve. i don't see that as trying to walk before i run. maybe you misunderstood me, i don't know but i just want to increase my knowledge about horses
		
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## AprilBlue (7 September 2012)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			That's interesting what some have said about the Olympics. I enjoyed watching the dressage, but considering these are supposed to be the worlds elite, I was disappointed by some of the riding and the tension shown in some of the horses. I thought I was the only one who felt this way. It's nice to know I'm not alone.
		
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yeah, i agree with you.


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## Tiasmum (7 September 2012)

Interesting comments, nice to read. Can I have some cc on the above please?


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## Sugar_and_Spice (7 September 2012)

Not bad. A balanced rider, a mostly relaxed horse who appears to be almost tracking up (back hoofs landing in the prints of front hoofs) but not quite, meaning the hind quarters are lacking engagement and there may be a little tension in the back. There looks to be no moment of suspension (all hoofs off the ground) in the trot either,which indicates the horse lacking impulsion. The head is where you would expect it to be (slightly above the bit) given the horses overall level of engagement. This indicates the horse is not being pulled into an artificial "outline". Looks like it would ve a nice uncomplicated horse to ride.   Appologies for the basics guide in brackets, I'm not meaning to be patronizing, but this thread was started by an eager-to-learn novice who may not know these things.


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## Tiasmum (8 September 2012)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			Not bad. A balanced rider, a mostly relaxed horse who appears to be almost tracking up (back hoofs landing in the prints of front hoofs) but not quite, meaning the hind quarters are lacking engagement and there may be a little tension in the back. There looks to be no moment of suspension (all hoofs off the ground) in the trot either,which indicates the horse lacking impulsion. The head is where you would expect it to be (slightly above the bit) given the horses overall level of engagement. This indicates the horse is not being pulled into an artificial "outline". Looks like it would ve a nice uncomplicated horse to ride.   Appologies for the basics guide in brackets, I'm not meaning to be patronizing, but this thread was started by an eager-to-learn novice who may not know these things.
		
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no that's fantastic thank you very much!


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## DanaHart (8 September 2012)

Cortez said:



			Afraid I'm going to agree with you here; The horse is behind the vertical, your arm is creating a broken line to the mouth, the horse's footfall is incorrect and it's on the forehand. Beware of making statements / posting pics on HHO! second picture is actually preferable!
		
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Agree in retrospect........ after my lesson today.......... thank you.


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## Alyth (8 September 2012)

When you have rhythm, looseness, contact, impulsion and straightness, then you will have collection ("in a frame" is just a headset without the foregoing requirements).


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## lastchancer (8 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			In true self carriage yes there SHOULD (!) be loops in the reins as the horse is capable of taking the bit forward without coming out of the outline or needing the riders hands for support. 






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Is that Sylvia Loch?


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## lastchancer (8 September 2012)

Farma said:



			I'm really sorry if this is controversial but the first pic doesn't look like a horse truly on the bit, although it is in an outline it looks held by the riders arm almost straight with an inward hand, and tilted forward slightly.
		
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I agree, first one is on the forehand, second pic looks much happier and more comfortable - even if his nose isn't tucked in....


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## texel (8 September 2012)

You school without a rider over poles of varying heights. This helps the horse to develop the muscles required to carry a rider and work on an outline.  
When he is ready he will do it !!!
Time and patience are the key.


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## TigerTail (8 September 2012)

lastchancer said:



			Is that Sylvia Loch?
		
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No its a very young Heather Moffett at Nuno Olivera's


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## Littlelegs (8 September 2012)

Actually op on the right horse you could experience what a horse feels like when working properly. As long as your seat is balanced enough not to interfere, even if you don't know the aids to ask yourself, you could experience it on the lunge, if you have access to a horse that has the training. In an ideal world, that's really how everyone should learn, balanced, independent seat, then experience what a horse working properly should feel like before learning how to ask for it themselves. It's easier to learn it right at first than learn wrong & years later try to unlearn bad habits.


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## Wagtail (8 September 2012)

Personally, I don't like the Heather Moffatt picture. The horse is in a curb bit (why would you need one for a horse that is so light? Though I appreciate it is more of a tradition in classical riding). Her hands are lifted up more like you would in western riding and there is therefore a broken axis from elbow to mouth. The horse is holding himself and is actually quite hollow in the back, which to me indicates he may have been encouraged to go this way through fear of the bit. But that's just my opinion.


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## FfionWinnie (8 September 2012)

Agree wagtail that pic does nothing for me at all.


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## FlaxenPony05 (8 September 2012)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			I'm not meaning to be patronizing, but this thread was started by an eager-to-learn novice who may not know these things.
		
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That's _very_ patronising imho.


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## Littlelegs (8 September 2012)

I didn't find s&s patronizing. That reply was in response to another poster, so I assumed that s&s was just trying to also help op, who by own admission is a novice, with the response. Not sure that politely trying to help a novice who's asked for explanations is patronizing.


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## Farma (8 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Personally, I don't like the Heather Moffatt picture. The horse is in a curb bit (why would you need one for a horse that is so light? Though I appreciate it is more of a tradition in classical riding). Her hands are lifted up more like you would in western riding and there is therefore a broken axis from elbow to mouth. The horse is holding himself and is actually quite hollow in the back, which to me indicates he may have been encouraged to go this way through fear of the bit. But that's just my opinion.
		
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I agree with this also, I would prefer to see the horse moving forward into a light receiving contact.

Very interesting thread though to see what peoples ideas of an 'outline' is, must be confusing for someone new to it all though.

To the OP; I find that reading books and watching dvds by instructors/lecturers really helps, Arthur Kottas/ Phillpe Karl/ Gerd Heusschman et al wll give you a good biomechanic understanding and then with greater understanding you will be able to apply some techniquies yourself when riding. If you get a chance to go to any of the lecture demos these are especially helpful.

Feel free to pm me if you would like any details x


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## WelshTilly (8 September 2012)

showqa said:



			IMHO, you shouldn't even really be thinking about it. There's too much emphasis on where the head is rather than what is happening behind the saddle and the rider's leg. Essentially, for a horse to be in an outline it has to be working over its back, and from behind with it's pelvis tucked under. If the horse isn't engaged behind then there's no chance of a true outline being produced - only a false one, which is both pointless and dangerous to the muscular development of the horse. As another poster has said, it takes a long time for a horse to develop physically in this way. With my horse, I don't DO anything infront as such, I work the horse very much from behind, lots of transitions, getting him moving forward and in front of my leg and allowing with my hands. It's no coincidence that once he's properly working, he offers an outline naturally.

I would much rather see a horse in his natural outline but actually going forward and working correctly, than shuffling around with his head tucked in and his back end going nowhere.
		
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This very good advice I had issues with my mare and lots of people told me lots of different things I took the good bits of advice and discarded the rest, the key with my mare was she hated fussing and like any horse had to be working from behind, 2 months down the line of basic schooling sessions building up from engine ie off the leg, lots of transitions, inside bend circles, shoulder in, engagement of the hind quarters, spiralling in / out on circles, squares, she is in an outline naturally and my reins are normally slightly slack she is definitely a less is more, I always follow these building blocks and thrown in a forward canter long side collect up for corner as this really gets her thinking forward and makes her open up, I tend to start my main walk work halfway and towards the end as this is when she is most supple and gives me her best work......everything we do is biased towards thinking forward so hacking is a good brisk walk lunging is getting active paces, not settling for a mediocre walk or trot ....horses are canny creatures that train us!!


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## Sugar_and_Spice (8 September 2012)

You don't put a curb bit on to achieve a light horse, you put a curb bit on an already light horse so you can refine the aids and make them almost invisible. So wagtail and farma you are right, in that no really well trained horse *needs* a curb bit.


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## Wagtail (8 September 2012)

After many many years riding horses at all kinds of levels of training, I have yet to understand the need for the curb bit and the spurs 'to refine the aids and make them almost invisible'.  I (personally) do not find the aids on a well schooled horse are any more visible when riding without spurs and in a snaffle. This is my experience. I believe that double bridles are compulsory in some competitions mainly due to tradition.


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## Auslander (8 September 2012)

DanaHart said:



			Agree in retrospect........ after my lesson today.......... thank you.
		
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What a gracious response! If only everyone on here was so accepting of cc. Brownie points for you


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## Natch (8 September 2012)

OP its nice to see you have an enquiring mind 

If your riding school is very showjumping focussed, the only way to learn about an outline is going to have to be to ho elsewhere for instruction. Its perfectly okay if you don't want to do that yet, i'm sure you are getting lots of other things out of your lessons there


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## WestCoast (8 September 2012)

Slightly strangely Bree was going in a lovely outline out on our hack today - we'd just got past the motorway, which is a little scary and gone up a hill, so I'd encouraged her to engage her back end well up this. At the top she relaxed a little as she usually does once she gets away from the thundering trucks and dropped her head into a lovely outline. Of course 100 yards on there were killer sheep so it was back to looky, looky. 

Paula


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## AdorableAlice (8 September 2012)

Forward, through, light, on the bit and in an outline.

How to do it - a good teacher and hours of progessive work.
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## Farma (8 September 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			Forward, through, light, on the bit and in an outline.

How to do it - a good teacher and hours of progessive work.
[Content removed]
		
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I dont mean to be picky but that horse does not have the poll at the highest point, it looks like its breaking at the 2nd - its only a snapshot in time but to me that is BTV.


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## Wagtail (8 September 2012)

Farma said:



			I dont mean to be picky but that horse does not have the poll at the highest point, it looks like its breaking at the 2nd - its only a snapshot in time but to me that is BTV.
		
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Often, if the poll is the highest point the horse is tense at the withers and not properly stretched over its back. Also, it is impossible to work a horse long and low and deep if the poll is the highest point. I have never liked this particular 'rule'. Many horses with a good crest for example cannot work with the poll at the highest point if they are working correctly. Conversely, a horse that is above the bit can have its poll at the highest point. It's a strange ruling in my opinion.

I do however think the rider's reins are too short in the photograph, but the horse is in a lovely up hill outline.


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## rhino (8 September 2012)

I promise I have read the whole thread, but my memory seems to be going  so sorry if I repeat anyone.

There is no such thing as 'an outline'. A young horse carrying itself well will have a different frame from a Grand Prix horse during a test. Different movements (collected/extended) will require a slightly different frame in order to carry out the physical component of the movement.

If you have a horse moving freely forward, who is supple, flexible, has a good rhythm and who isn't being hindered by their rider, he/she should in time, and barring any injury or serious conformation faults, be able to carry himself well, and 'an outline' is likely to develop.

A horse can be poll high, head on the vertical and not be working happily. Focusing on what the front end is doing can quickly stifle correct movement; the power comes from the hindquarters and too often an inappropriate contact prevents the hind legs from moving well.

Here is a photo, on first glance it could appear that the horse is in 'an outline' (though it is a novice horse and rider doing their first ODE, so we're not looking for a GP dressage horse's frame!)







However, horse is not tracking up, rider has lost the contact by turning her hands in and doing rather bizarre things with her right elbow , and while I think the overall picture is not bad, there is no real power to the trot. The horse's mouth is slightly open which suggests some resistance to the contact. However, at lower levels, this sort of outline tends to be rewarded, and it is only when horse and rider progress through the levels that the 'block' becomes more apparent.

OP - can I recommend the book 'A young person's guide to dressage' as a good introductory text, it explains basic principles really well IMO  You have started a really interesting discussion here!


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## Farma (8 September 2012)

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/behind_the_vertical.php

Found a great site here with some good explanations/ diagrams etc if anyone is interested


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## lula (8 September 2012)

equi said:



			By encouraging a low head carriage. Do this by opening your hands and placing them down towards your knees.
		
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if my trainer saw me riding like this she would pull me off the horse by my ear and slap me silly


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## Lolo (8 September 2012)

lula- yes, lol! We used to do that when we were very little to persuade our ponies to tuck their noses in  Poor buggers, they were ever so obliging but we still got crap marks!

How about this? 










I am endlessly jealous of her good hands! Mine seem to sit on the pommel no matter how hard I work!


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## Wagtail (8 September 2012)

Lolo said:



			lula- yes, lol! We used to do that when we were very little to persuade our ponies to tuck their noses in  Poor buggers, they were ever so obliging but we still got crap marks!

How about this? 










I am endlessly jealous of her good hands! Mine seem to sit on the pommel no matter how hard I work!
		
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Is this you or someone else? Horse is on the forehand, not tracking up. Rider is gripping up with her knees. On the plus side, the line is nice and straight from elbow to bit.


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## AdorableAlice (8 September 2012)

Farma said:



			I dont mean to be picky but that horse does not have the poll at the highest point, it looks like its breaking at the 2nd - its only a snapshot in time but to me that is BTV.
		
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What does breaking at the 2nd mean please ?  The horse is 17.2h and I took that picture as he reached the end of extended canter.  He is slightly behind the vertical in the picture but it does show the uphill and power from behind created by impulsion.  Here is a picture of him in his double bridle, he is naturally built uphill and appears to be 'on the bridle/in an outline', even when stood still, Sadly injury ended his prolific career as a dressage horse and top middlewieght hunter.  I find it fascinating to listen to other opinions, it is easy to miss so much when you are only with your own horses all the time.












Here are a couple of pictures of a recently purchased horse that although looking like it should find going in an outline reasonably easy, cannot, it's a very young 6 and has been prevented from going forward for the last 2 years, by a well meaning but frightened and nervous rider.  The cob is very willing and that combined with unbalanced paces was a problem for the previous owner, resulting in the cobs mouth being used as a balancing point.

Probably what the OP is experiencing, it's all strung out with a hollow back.  All the work is done in walk, transistions within walk and halts, using a square with 1/4 turns to help the shoulders come up.  The last picture shows her picking her back up for a split second.  The horse is in week 7 with us and improving everyday, it will take all winter and probably beyond to get her right, together with endless patience.  Today she went for a romp in the stubble and kept her balance for a few steps of trot.  It is hoped she will forgot her previous experiences of having her mouth used as a balancing point, and go on to be a real fun horse with a bit maxi cob showing and hunting.

CC on this horse please.

Please excuse the tea towel in the girth, she was bitten by a horsefly and has a sore patch.  AND - the hat - we all have a choice !. The draw rein is used sparingly and will come off when the penny completely drops.


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## Lolo (8 September 2012)

AA: your horses are stunning, very very smart 

Wagtail- I agree with the knee-pinching (about to do a downwards transition I think), and he was beginning to droop- dressage running behind, so his 15 minute warm up became 25 and despite lots of walking it was too much. Still got a 31 score, leaving them about 3rd/30  And it's my sister, not me! Thanks for the hands comment- she's worked long and hard at bringing them back up after instructors who taught her to ride with them down, and now I think they're her best thing 

How would you rate a naturally downhill young horse working like this:





(slowly coming round in her own time- now working on coming up a little more as she develops better balance and rhythm)





On grass in the open for the first time, hence the slightly 'bright' look going on!


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## pootleperkin (8 September 2012)

I'd like to play too 

So this is Gully doing his first prelim - the pics are representative of him most of the time during the test.







He is behind the vertical and downhill. Other than that, I am quite happy with the pic - he was working through from behind, tracking up and taking me forward - my hands were able to come soft and he wasn't leaning.  The judge commented that we had a nice, elastic contact.

Same here:







At this stage in his training, I know his default is to fall onto his forehand. We are working, constantly, on him getting fitter, muscling up across his back and starting to take more weight behind - it's going to take time. So, perhaps contraversially, I'm not too worried about him occasionally going overbent. As long as he feels light in the hand with a soft jaw and is actively moving forward, I think at the stage he is at, it's ok......any thoughts?

As he is starting to get more muscled up, I'm having to watch that he isn't starting lean on the hand to evade working up and through - to me it's all about the weight in the rein at the moment. Oh yeah, and I need to sit up more with my shoulders back!

This is a pic of him a couple of weeks later doing prelim 14, and he actually felt heavier in the hand, his jaw wasn't soft and he wasn't working through as well, but arguably, his 'outline' is better in terms of vertical. I find it all really fascinating -I think pics being a moment in time rather than a feeling and acceptance of stage of training, can sometimes confuse us - well, me anyway!


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## Wagtail (8 September 2012)

Lolo said:



			AA: your horses are stunning, very very smart 

Wagtail- I agree with the knee-pinching (about to do a downwards transition I think), and he was beginning to droop- dressage running behind, so his 15 minute warm up became 25 and despite lots of walking it was too much. Still got a 31 score, leaving them about 3rd/30  And it's my sister, not me! Thanks for the hands comment- she's worked long and hard at bringing them back up after instructors who taught her to ride with them down, and now I think they're her best thing 

How would you rate a naturally downhill young horse working like this:





(slowly coming round in her own time- now working on coming up a little more as she develops better balance and rhythm)

He's about where you would want him for a young slightly down hill horse. Rider needs to sit up more, lengthen the rein slightly and bend her elbows.





On grass in the open for the first time, hence the slightly 'bright' look going on!
		
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Love this one. He has lifted his forehand considerably. Even though he is above the bit it is a much nicer picture with far more impulsion than the first pic.


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## Wagtail (8 September 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			I'd like to play too 

So this is Gully doing his first prelim - the pics are representative of him most of the time during the test.







He is behind the vertical and downhill. Other than that, I am quite happy with the pic - he was working through from behind, tracking up and taking me forward - my hands were able to come soft and he wasn't leaning.  The judge commented that we had a nice, elastic contact.

Same here:







At this stage in his training, I know his default is to fall onto his forehand. We are working, constantly, on him getting fitter, muscling up across his back and starting to take more weight behind - it's going to take time. So, perhaps contraversially, I'm not too worried about him occasionally going overbent. As long as he feels light in the hand with a soft jaw and is actively moving forward, I think at the stage he is at, it's ok......any thoughts?

As he is starting to get more muscled up, I'm having to watch that he isn't starting lean on the hand to evade working up and through - to me it's all about the weight in the rein at the moment. Oh yeah, and I need to sit up more with my shoulders back!

This is a pic of him a couple of weeks later doing prelim 14, and he actually felt heavier in the hand, his jaw wasn't soft and he wasn't working through as well, but arguably, his 'outline' is better in terms of vertical. I find it all really fascinating -I think pics being a moment in time rather than a feeling and acceptance of stage of training, can sometimes confuse us - well, me anyway! 






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You make a very pleasing picture together. Horse is tracking up well, you have about the right length of rein which makes a direct line from elbow to mouth. Yes he is slightly on the forehand but I wouldn't be worrying too much about that as it is very minimal.


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## pootleperkin (8 September 2012)

Thanks Wagtail - I start to over analyse and so am incapable of seeing him as anything other than on the forehand!! 

I do think that if I can eventually get my shoulderblades to behave and stay back, it will help him start to sit more too! What do you reckon to him being BTV? Same thoughts as me on the subject at this stage?


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## Wagtail (8 September 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			Thanks Wagtail - I start to over analyse and so am incapable of seeing him as anything other than on the forehand!! 

I do think that if I can eventually get my shoulderblades to behave and stay back, it will help him start to sit more too! What do you reckon to him being BTV? Same thoughts as me on the subject at this stage?
		
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Personally, at this stage it does not bother me as he is being ridden in a lower outline. Behind the vertical is only a problem with horses that are being ridden at a more advanced higher outline IMO.


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## Pearlsasinger (8 September 2012)

AA perhaps if all riders could sit like the one in your pics, then all horses would learn to go well, carrying themselves 'in an outline'.  When will people realise that it is *the rider* who needs to be correct in order for the horse to be correct?  
Whilst I prefer not to use draw reins myself and always wear a hat, IMO, anyone who can ride like that rider can do what the heck he pleases.
I watch some 'dressage' riders with heads like nodding dogs, feet flapping, and fingers twitching who seriously think that their horses are going well.  I certainly don't agree with them. In fact, I despair.  Who teaches these people?


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## Farma (8 September 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			I'd like to play too 

So this is Gully doing his first prelim - the pics are representative of him most of the time during the test.







He is behind the vertical and downhill. Other than that, I am quite happy with the pic - he was working through from behind, tracking up and taking me forward - my hands were able to come soft and he wasn't leaning.  The judge commented that we had a nice, elastic contact.

Same here:







At this stage in his training, I know his default is to fall onto his forehand. We are working, constantly, on him getting fitter, muscling up across his back and starting to take more weight behind - it's going to take time. So, perhaps contraversially, I'm not too worried about him occasionally going overbent. As long as he feels light in the hand with a soft jaw and is actively moving forward, I think at the stage he is at, it's ok......any thoughts?

As he is starting to get more muscled up, I'm having to watch that he isn't starting lean on the hand to evade working up and through - to me it's all about the weight in the rein at the moment. Oh yeah, and I need to sit up more with my shoulders back!

This is a pic of him a couple of weeks later doing prelim 14, and he actually felt heavier in the hand, his jaw wasn't soft and he wasn't working through as well, but arguably, his 'outline' is better in terms of vertical. I find it all really fascinating -I think pics being a moment in time rather than a feeling and acceptance of stage of training, can sometimes confuse us - well, me anyway! 






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Really like these pics, I wouldn't say he was downhill just a tad on the forehand and btv in one of the pics but overall a nice picture of horse and rider. I would be pleased if he was mine


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## Lolo (8 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Love this one. He has lifted his forehand considerably. Even though he is above the bit it is a much nicer picture with far more impulsion than the first pic.
		
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Yep, it's about 4 weeks on in terms of her schooling (first photo, she'd been rebacked for about 10 weeks, now she's pushing 4 months! Time flies!) and it's really clear. At home she's got the second photo but on the bit. Tomorrow's her first dressage- she'll be back to photo 1 I think, as she will be quite goggly-eyed about being shoved into an arena all alone with another horse doing a test next doors!

Gully is lush!


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## Booboos (8 September 2012)

Just my two pennies worth on the loose reins discussion...for me if a horse is engaged from behind it is impossible to have loose reins (as in the horse is an outline and the reins are looping) because there is so much power coming from behind and into the rein. The power is still used through the back to elevate the shoulder so the horse is not hanging on the rein but on a scale of 1 to 10 where 10 is terribly on the forehand, correct contact weight is 5 and not 1. The only horses I have ridden that have had a very light contact were the ones that were tight through the back and even tighter through the neck and BTV.


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## Tr0uble (8 September 2012)

Can I play?

This is my 5 year old a couple of months ago (he's had time off with pneumonia) his recurrent bad habit is to be slightly against my hand and a bit long in the frame, making "sit" difficult. 













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## pootleperkin (8 September 2012)

Thanks Farma, I am very pleased with him! But always room for improvement!


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## AdorableAlice (8 September 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			AA perhaps if all riders could sit like the one in your pics, then all horses would learn to go well, carrying themselves 'in an outline'.  When will people realise that it is *the rider* who needs to be correct in order for the horse to be correct?  
Whilst I prefer not to use draw reins myself and always wear a hat, IMO, anyone who can ride like that rider can do what the heck he pleases.
I watch some 'dressage' riders with heads like nodding dogs, feet flapping, and fingers twitching who seriously think that their horses are going well.  I certainly don't agree with them. In fact, I despair.  Who teaches these people?
		
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That is a lovely comment.  The rider is a dear friend, a semi retired teacher who has been blessed with balance and feel, I won't reveal his age in case he reads this, but you would be very surprised !, He is an amateur and is taught by Gill Rose and Jenny Key, both of whom will not allow a horse out of walk until self carriage is established.  The big bay horse took him from riding club prelims to BD nationals and Hoys between 2006 and 2010.  The horse is mine, but as you say, a horse is only a good as the rider, and I am short, fat and windy, so the horse would have no flipping chance with me bobbling about on top of him.

I attended most of the lessons and he has an amazing ability to remember everything told to him and keep it for future use, something I have never mastered regardless of the subject !  He also has the most endless patience, that cob is a mare and a very clever one that has mastered evasion, but he has gently persuaded her to give and soften, it has been wonderful to watch the mare's eye soften and her neck relax as she realises no one is going to swing off her back teeth.  She is being schooled for me to ride and is more suitable for me in my old age.

To be fair he does wear his hat, he does a lot of work on foot with the cob, getting her to leg yield and cross her hind feet over.  He had done the ground work, got very hot and got on her hatless when the pictures were taken.  There was 3 of us shouting hat, hat at him.

Thank you for your lovely comment I will tell him.


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## Wagtail (8 September 2012)

Tr0uble said:



			Can I play?

This is my 5 year old a couple of months ago (he's had time off with pneumonia) his recurrent bad habit is to be slightly against my hand and a bit long in the frame, making "sit" difficult. 
























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Wow look at that hindleg action! Lovely boy. I would want him off my hands a bit, but that is just my preference. He is using the hand to balance, but that is not surprising with all that power coming from behind and having to go somewhere. Once he learns to balance and carry himself he should lighten up. I would be using half halts and transitions but giving him nothing to lean against. Drop him for a milisecond after the half halt before picking up again. He should start to carry himself more.


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## FfionWinnie (8 September 2012)

Really enjoying the photos and cc. Keep them coming please.


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## Pearlsasinger (8 September 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			That is a lovely comment.  The rider is a dear friend, a semi retired teacher who has been blessed with balance and feel, I won't reveal his age in case he reads this, but you would be very surprised !,  .

Thank you for your lovely comment I will tell him.
		
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You are welcome!

My first reaction when I saw your photos was 'Wow!'

Your friend reminds me of my first (and best) RI.  He has retired after suffering a stroke, although he still rides and judges BSPS classes.  He is now 85 and I did comment on the resemblance, although saying that your friend is obviously younger.


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## Tr0uble (8 September 2012)

Yes he was just starting to soften much more to my hand (he's not massively heavy or hard on my hands, but I would like him to back off a little more) at our last BD outing (bottom pic) then it started going very downhill...very frustrating until we discovered he was really quite ill (pneumonia...no outward symptoms other than lethargy)

He does have a lot of power from the back end! I can't wait until we get strong enough to use it! At the moment the front end struggles to keep up with the back end so sometimes het a bit shuffly and muddled in front...but he's a baby (a big one at that!) and it'll come.

Currently using a lot of walk to canter, canter to walk, rein back to trot and working-medium and back again to help lighten him, and lots of leg yield before transitions to get him better engaged.


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## pootleperkin (8 September 2012)

AA - I also thought that your rider looked fab - completely centred in the saddle. The horses are also lovely, partic. love the picture of them about to go in the show ring - the horse's conformation looks so balanced front to rear.

PS -  thanks Lolo - I think Gully is lush too


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## mrsk29 (8 September 2012)

ok can i play 2... weve been learning dressage for 3 months so im still learning what all the terms mean for things...












thoughts?


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## AdorableAlice (8 September 2012)

Isn't it lovely to see so many pictures of beautiful horses.  We are fortunate people to have these creatures in our lives.

My bay is Selle Francias and only one hunter judge ever got it right.  He is show jump bred, by Qyou De Longvaut who is by I Love You/Alme.

I know nothing about showjumping but have been told it is impressive bloodlines.  He hates jumping so it's academic ! didn't stop him strutting his stuff in other arena's.  I am just hoping he can enjoy retirement pain free.


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## pootleperkin (8 September 2012)

mrsk29 said:



			ok can i play 2... weve been learning dressage for 3 months so im still learning what all the terms mean for things...












thoughts?
		
Click to expand...

I'll have a go at the cc 

I like the first pic much better than the second. In the first, he is tracking up into a contact and you look in a nice secure position, although you hands are a bit unlevel. He is a little way behind the vertical, but looks quite soft and through, so not too much of a problem. The more I look, the more I think it looks nice 

In the second pic, he isn't going forward - you look tense (partic. through your shoulders) and there is no contact. He is disconnected, front to rear - looks to me like he is dropping behind the contact to evade going forward - IMO you need to sit deeper, as in the first pic and push him on into the hand to get him back towards the vertical.

Anyone else?


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## rhino (8 September 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			I'll have a go at the cc 

I like the first pic much better than the second. In the first, he is tracking up into a contact and you look in a nice secure position, although you hands are a bit unlevel. He is a little way behind the vertical, but looks quite soft and through, so not too much of a problem. The more I look, the more I think it looks nice 

In the second pic, he isn't going forward - you look tense (partic. through your shoulders) and there is no contact. He is disconnected, front to rear - looks to me like he is dropping behind the contact to evade going forward - IMO you need to sit deeper, as in the first pic and push him on into the hand to get him back towards the vertical.

Anyone else?
		
Click to expand...

I'd pretty much agree, definite work in progress but plenty of potential. I'd love to see an untacked, stood up photo of that horse to assess his conformation.

I posted a photo earlier, with my own CC. Anyone agree/disagree with what I said?


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## Wagtail (8 September 2012)

rhino said:



			I'd pretty much agree, definite work in progress but plenty of potential. I'd love to see an untacked, stood up photo of that horse to assess his conformation.

I posted a photo earlier, with my own CC. Anyone agree/disagree with what I said?
		
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I completely agree with all that you said. Was that you?


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## Wagtail (8 September 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			I'll have a go at the cc 

I like the first pic much better than the second. In the first, he is tracking up into a contact and you look in a nice secure position, although you hands are a bit unlevel. He is a little way behind the vertical, but looks quite soft and through, so not too much of a problem. The more I look, the more I think it looks nice 

In the second pic, he isn't going forward - you look tense (partic. through your shoulders) and there is no contact. He is disconnected, front to rear - looks to me like he is dropping behind the contact to evade going forward - IMO you need to sit deeper, as in the first pic and push him on into the hand to get him back towards the vertical.

Anyone else?
		
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Well put. I agree, although in the first pic, the rider is leaning slightly backwards and it looks as though the horse is taking a real pull. But lovely action.


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## rhino (8 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I completely agree with all that you said. Was that you?
		
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Yes  I'm proud of that photo, we both did the best job we could do at the time, but it also makes me cringe now. He was unbeaten ODE and very rarely unplaced Dressage (Pr/Nov and Nov/Int RC teams) but it was most definitely not _correct_!


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## mrsk29 (8 September 2012)

rhino said:



			I'd pretty much agree, definite work in progress but plenty of potential. I'd love to see an untacked, stood up photo of that horse to assess his conformation.

I posted a photo earlier, with my own CC. Anyone agree/disagree with what I said?
		
Click to expand...

untacked.. taken about 2 months ago..lacking topline but hes a bit more muscled up now...


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## Holly Hocks (8 September 2012)

This is my lovely ex-racer Rebel who was PTS last October aged 21 - this photo was taken about 18 months earlier.  Apart from my shoddy position (I know I perch - you don't need to tell me!  ) how did he look?







And these are a couple of my other ex-racer taken six days after she came out of racing (again I know I am perching!)  I know she is on the forehand too, but she had done 
nothing but race before.  She is also in far better condition now (a little too good!!)


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## JFTDWS (8 September 2012)

rhino, I thought your comments seemed justified, though very much on the hyper-critical side 

can I play?

On a better day, mine goes a bit like this...







despite me doing horrible pully things with my inside hand 







However, I have a horrible habit of dropping my hands and making him tense, blocking him coming through behind etc.













(last photo is really vile, I know)


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## mrsk29 (8 September 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			I'll have a go at the cc 

I like the first pic much better than the second. In the first, he is tracking up into a contact and you look in a nice secure position, although you hands are a bit unlevel. He is a little way behind the vertical, but looks quite soft and through, so not too much of a problem. The more I look, the more I think it looks nice 

In the second pic, he isn't going forward - you look tense (partic. through your shoulders) and there is no contact. He is disconnected, front to rear - looks to me like he is dropping behind the contact to evade going forward - IMO you need to sit deeper, as in the first pic and push him on into the hand to get him back towards the vertical.

Anyone else?
		
Click to expand...

I was petrified lol only our 2nd test... the first pic was near the end of the test we were more relaxed... what does working behind the vertical mean?


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## rhino (8 September 2012)

Thanks  He's a very sweet looking horse, but he is not going to find it as easy to work correctly as some others, I don't think. His neck is set on a tad low, and is a slight ewe neck, nothing major but he may well find it difficult to 'lift' and flex, and will make him _look_ on the forehand, even if he isn't. He's also a bit long in the back (which I personally don't mind) and in that photo a little weak through the quarters - particularly lacking in his 2nd thigh.

Fab shoulder so could well have the potential for 'big' paces - as was suggested by your first picture under saddle  Lots of steady work, lots of lateral suppleness, and I think he'll be rather nice!

Sorry if that sounds bad, I like him, and I find the link between conformation and way of going absolutely fascinating  There is no such thing as a horse with perfect conformation, so it is about learning how to make things easier for them.


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## mrsk29 (8 September 2012)

rhino said:



			Thanks  He's a very sweet looking horse, but he is not going to find it as easy to work correctly as some others, I don't think. His neck is set on a tad low, and is a slight ewe neck, nothing major but he may well find it difficult to 'lift' and flex, and will make him _look_ on the forehand, even if he isn't. He's also a bit long in the back (which I personally don't mind) and in that photo a little weak through the quarters - particularly lacking in his 2nd thigh.

Fab shoulder so could well have the potential for 'big' paces - as was suggested by your first picture under saddle  Lots of steady work, lots of lateral suppleness, and I think he'll be rather nice!

Sorry if that sounds bad, I like him, and I find the link between conformation and way of going absolutely fascinating  There is no such thing as a horse with perfect conformation, so it is about learning how to make things easier for them.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input...I know he hasnt great confirmation its great to hear what others think though.. good or bad...he is very sweet bless him, He does find certain things difficult and makes riding him hard work sometimes...he is long in the back plus has big strides... currently working to squish him up a bit  he is a work in progress with regards to building muscle and working correctly.. I bought him to have fun on and its worked out so much better than id hoped..hes a gem.


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## rhino (8 September 2012)

MrsK - sorry, previous post was for you, I didn't make it too clear! BTV/Behind the Vertical means the angle of the front of the face, you are aiming for the angle to be vertical or just in front of vertical.







HH - love the look of concentration on the first horse's face, he's really trying for you! Bit more 'lift' (though you can see his stomach muscles are working) and power from behind would have been perfection - he's not tracking up (although not all horses will, even when worked correctly) so it all looks a little 'safe'.

2nd horse - wow! Beautiful, and being ridden very nicely indeed. That is what you want for a horse at that level of schooling, trying to put them into an advanced outline at that stage is so counter productive. Bravo!


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## mrsk29 (8 September 2012)

rhino said:



			MrsK - sorry, previous post was for you, I didn't make it too clear! BTV/Behind the Vertical means the angle of the front of the face, you are aiming for the angle to be vertical or just in front of vertical.







Thanks great explanation 

Click to expand...


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## rhino (8 September 2012)

JFTD I can never be sure about Fergs, would love to see some more recent video (actually I'd love to see him in the flesh ). Lots to like in all those photos, and nothing to dislike really, just a few little tweaks which you are obviously aware of.

I somehow get the impression that he finds the work easier than he lets on, and that when you really get after him he performs much better, but I could be way out?! It's clear to see that the correct basics have been taught, that really shows through in his development this year


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## JFTDWS (9 September 2012)

rhino said:



			JFTD I can never be sure about Fergs, would love to see some more recent video (actually I'd love to see him in the flesh ). Lots to like in all those photos, and nothing to dislike really, just a few little tweaks which you are obviously aware of.

I somehow get the impression that he finds the work easier than he lets on, and that when you really get after him he performs much better, but I could be way out?! It's clear to see that the correct basics have been taught, that really shows through in his development this year 

Click to expand...

Well you're always welcome   Have I heard Olympia-related rumours?   I may dig out some video footage tomorrow, if you promise not to judge me 

Interesting, I'm never too sure whether he's holding out on me, or whether he's offering what he can.  He certainly doesn't help me out at competitions, when we turn into a complete mess because I fail to ride in any way effectually   He does have a convenient tendancy to "trip" over the ground when I ask for more than he's willing to offer


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## rhino (9 September 2012)

JFTD said:



			Well you're always welcome   Have I heard Olympia-related rumours?   I may dig out some video footage tomorrow, if you promise not to judge me 

Click to expand...

Olympia is a possibility, term finishes on the 21st here. 

I'd love to see some more videos, it's remarkable watching his progression from last year. He's a dude, but I have a sneaky suspicion he's ready (physically at least) to handle a little more being asked of him in his flatwork


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## JFTDWS (9 September 2012)

rhino said:



			Olympia is a possibility, term finishes on the 21st here. 

I'd love to see some more videos, it's remarkable watching his progression from last year. He's a dude, but I have a sneaky suspicion he's ready (physically at least) to handle a little more being asked of him in his flatwork 

Click to expand...

Well if you do, it'd be lovely if you came to play, I can't offer much in the way of hospitality unfortunately, but you're more than welcome to ride any of mine or anything!  I'm 40 minutes outside London 

I'm trying to establish more/ better SI, collection, medium work, simple changes etc, all of which he can do nicely - when he wants to   Still, new YM has offered me some lessons which may help


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## AprilBlue (9 September 2012)

thank you everybody for all the help on how to get a horse into an outline 

AprilBlue


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## Jackson (9 September 2012)

Can I play? 

I struggle to get Jack working properly, especially at the moment because he is so unfit 

I don't really have many decent pictures, I know for a start that he finds it harder to work in the field than the school because it is very unlevel and I'm having random elbow and ankle issues in this pic 













He's very forward on a looseish rein but the second you try any contact he just slows down and sticks his head in the air 

I think a lot of the problem is me not sitting up straight and bringing my elbows in. 
He over-tracks when he walks, but can I get him to track up when he trots? Can I heck? 

ETA we do go on the other rein to  But apparently this side of us is prettier to photograph!


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## Wagtail (9 September 2012)

Jackson said:



			Can I play? 

I struggle to get Jack working properly, especially at the moment because he is so unfit 

I don't really have many decent pictures, I know for a start that he finds it harder to work in the field than the school because it is very unlevel and I'm having random elbow and ankle issues in this pic 






Click to expand...

In this photo your saddle is too far forward which will be interfering with his shoulder action. You are slumped in the saddle with rounded shoulders and stiff looking arms. You are sitting in a kind of armchair position, but it looks as though your saddle may be to blame here. Is it wide enough, as it seems to be tipping you backwards? Try sitting up taller and keeping your shoulders back but relaxed. Let your elbows hang by your waist. Hold the reins firmly. The softness in the rein should come right from your shoulders which should be free from restriction. Keep a straight line from your elbow to the bit.  The most imprtant thing with a horse that isn't tracking up is to get him pushing from behind. Forget about the front end until he is powering along.


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## nikicb (9 September 2012)

Finding this thread really interesting - thanks OP for posting it. 

Would be interested in CC on my boy.  He's just turned 5 and these photos were taken around 2 months ago when I'd had him about 6/7 weeks.

He can feel a little heavy in the hands/on the forehand sometimes, but I'm gradually getting him to work through from behind better and come up a bit.

Excuse my position in the first picture, I was having a lesson and I was looking to see what was going on.   Oh, and the saddle is not great, but my new dressage saddle has now arrived and I can put my legs where they should be. 



















P.S. Rhino & JFTD - let me know if you're on for Olympia and we can fix a date.


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## sakura (9 September 2012)

quick question, what do people think of my mares conformation for dressage? she's a 6yro welsh D x. she's been focusing on dressage (as have I!) for about 6 months







I apologise for the stains but she's coloured 







she does not work consistently in an outline, but neither do I want her too at this stage. she has moments of it and my #1 focus is getting her working nicely from behind




















I know my position is not perfect (tendancy to perch and wandering elbows, plus I'm a knee griper) but I'm working very hard on it


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## rhino (9 September 2012)

Indiangel said:



			quick question, what do people think of my mares conformation for dressage? she's a 6yro welsh D x. she's been focusing on dressage (as have I!) for about 6 months
		
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Lovely, only trouble may be containing all the power from that @rse  Possibly a tad thick through the jowl which will make a technically correct head position more difficult to achieve, but that's being _very_ picky! Looks like she has a fair bit of muscle on the underside of her neck, but that will change enormously with correct work. Good luck with her 

Niki - a really nice example of a novice outline IMO, just how I like youngsters to be working. He looks happy and confident in his work


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## sakura (9 September 2012)

rhino said:



			Lovely, only trouble may be containing all the power from that @rse  Possibly a tad thick through the jowl which will make a technically correct head position more difficult to achieve, but that's being _very_ picky! Looks like she has a fair bit of muscle on the underside of her neck, but that will change enormously with correct work. Good luck with her 

Click to expand...

thanks!

yeah her backend is like a rocket, even more so in canter! she was very unbalanced when I started schooling her but she's improving all the time

she's awesome, just have to get her to focus cos for the first 4 months all she thought about was wanting jump!


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## rhino (9 September 2012)

Indiangel said:



			thanks!

yeah her backend is like a rocket, even more so in canter! she was very unbalanced when I started schooling her but she's improving all the time

she's awesome, just have to get her to focus cos for the first 4 months all she thought about was wanting jump!
		
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There are a couple of welsh and welsh x dressage horses on the forum, can't remember posters names off hand but definitely worth having a look at their pics and vids - think trendybraincell is one?! 

Lots of on and back within the paces, keeping her soft, and try and 'sit proud' on her, if you can have a more relaxed arm position (relax shoulder, keep upper arm nearer your side "close your armpits" and keep a bend in your elbow) the whole picture would look a lot softer. Don't worry about her front end too much at the moment, it will come in time


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## sakura (9 September 2012)

rhino said:



			There are a couple of welsh and welsh x dressage horses on the forum, can't remember posters names off hand but definitely worth having a look at their pics and vids - think trendybraincell is one?! 

Lots of on and back within the paces, keeping her soft, and try and 'sit proud' on her, if you can have a more relaxed arm position (relax shoulder, keep upper arm nearer your side "close your armpits" and keep a bend in your elbow) the whole picture would look a lot softer. Don't worry about her front end too much at the moment, it will come in time 

Click to expand...

cool, thanks! 

I aim to do a lot of transitions every time, direct and indirect. I'll focus on transitions within the pace more! she also hacks a lot to keep her enthusiastic and fit, plus we both enjoy it!

Haha I read about "closing the armpits" on this forum a while ago and it does make a real difference but my elbows I swear have a mind of their own! It's something I'll continue to set my mind at, thank you!


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## rhino (9 September 2012)

Indiangel said:



			cool, thanks! 

I aim to do a lot of transitions every time, direct and indirect. I'll focus on transitions within the pace more! she also hacks a lot to keep her enthusiastic and fit, plus we both enjoy it!

Haha I read about "closing the armpits" on this forum a while ago and it does make a real difference but my elbows I swear have a mind of their own! It's something I'll continue to set my mind at, thank you!
		
Click to expand...

It's one (of many) of my horrible habits too  Much as it makes me cringe, I do try and get video of my riding every so often, lots to be gained from tearing it to shreds


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## FfionWinnie (9 September 2012)

On a similar vein. How can you school a child's pony from the ground to go in a correct outline. Long lining?


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## lizstuguinness (9 September 2012)

transitions - lots of, leg and soft hands


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## sakura (9 September 2012)

rhino said:



			It's one (of many) of my horrible habits too  Much as it makes me cringe, I do try and get video of my riding every so often, lots to be gained from tearing it to shreds 

Click to expand...

tell me about it, it's a favourite pastime 

however it's much more difficult finding a place for a phone to balance, mine always falls off right when she's going well and I end up with about 10 mins of clouds moving across the sky footage! They should invent some kinda app for that really 

so I get videos as often as I can rope people in to do it!

Thanks for the advice!


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## rhino (9 September 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			On a similar vein. How can you school a child's pony from the ground to go in a correct outline. Long lining?
		
Click to expand...

I normally just get on and ride - benefit of being stupidly little! Longreining done well can do brilliantly though, we have a little Welsh B at the yard who can perform all the advanced movements  (and a lovely levade) on long reins


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## FfionWinnie (9 September 2012)

rhino said:



			I normally just get on and ride - benefit of being stupidly little! Longreining done well can do brilliantly though, we have a little Welsh B at the yard who can perform all the advanced movements  (and a lovely levade) on long reins 

Click to expand...

Ha ha. Do you want a ride on a Sec A year after next. I am just under 5ft8 lol


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## rhino (9 September 2012)

Don't tempt me! Had a lovely pally sec A last year to ride for a bit 

He/she is one seriously cute pony!


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## FfionWinnie (9 September 2012)

rhino said:



			Don't tempt me! Had a lovely pally sec A last year to ride for a bit 

He/she is one seriously cute pony!
		
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Thanks. She is a little star. Can't wait til we can back her!


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## Paint Me Proud (9 September 2012)

Will post some of my photos of one particular horse for discussion purposes.

14.2hh 4 year old coloured hairy!

This is NOT me riding.


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## rhino (9 September 2012)

Do you have permission to post the photos on here PMP? Feel a bit uncomfortable about commenting unless you do


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## Wagtail (9 September 2012)

Paint Me Proud said:



			Will post some of my photos of one particular horse for discussion purposes.

14.2hh 4 year old coloured hairy!

This is NOT me riding.
























Click to expand...

In the first two pictures he is over bent and lacking impulsion. However, the picture is completely different in the second two. In the last pic especially, he looks like he is moving really well, is tracking up and taking the contact nicely forward without leaning on the hands. Rider is doing something wierd with her hands in the third which is bending him to the right. I don't know if this is on purpose?


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## Paint Me Proud (9 September 2012)

rhino said:



			Do you have permission to post the photos on here PMP? Feel a bit uncomfortable about commenting unless you do 

Click to expand...

yes they are my photos. Riders face has been blanked (this was done for sale advert last year).

This one IS me, riding my 6 year old gelding just back in work after 5 months off.
I realise my saddle is way too far forward, i was horrified when i saw the photos after, i dont know what i was doing when i tack him up that day!! 

My boy has quite a high head carriage, often does giraffe impressions.


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## nikicb (9 September 2012)

rhino said:



			Niki - a really nice example of a novice outline IMO, just how I like youngsters to be working. He looks happy and confident in his work 

Click to expand...

Thanks R.   He's such a genuine, uncomplicated and lovable chap. 

Anyone else?


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## rhino (9 September 2012)

Thanks PMP  Agree with Wagtail on the little cob, but with 4 year olds you need to remember that the vast majority are unable to maintain a consistent contact, so the first photos wouldn't actually worry me much. Nice hind leg, but don't think the saddle is doing horse or rider many favours. Would be interesting to see how he has developed.

Chico is a lovely sort but I'd rather see more photos if you have them, difficult to judge much from that phase of the walk. It's just nice to see him back under saddle looking so well


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## Wagtail (9 September 2012)

nikicb said:



			Finding this thread really interesting - thanks OP for posting it. 

Would be interested in CC on my boy.  He's just turned 5 and these photos were taken around 2 months ago when I'd had him about 6/7 weeks.

He can feel a little heavy in the hands/on the forehand sometimes, but I'm gradually getting him to work through from behind better and come up a bit.

Excuse my position in the first picture, I was having a lesson and I was looking to see what was going on.   Oh, and the saddle is not great, but my new dressage saddle has now arrived and I can put my legs where they should be. 



















P.S. Rhino & JFTD - let me know if you're on for Olympia and we can fix a date. 

Click to expand...

Gorgeous horse, Nikicb. I can't really fault his way of going for the stage he is at. He is tracking up well and accepting the contact. You have a tendancy to fix your hands downwards alittle, thereby breaking the line from elbow to bit (which I think is one of the most important things in acheiving a nice fluid contact) though they are better in the first photograph.


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## FfionWinnie (9 September 2012)

Nikicb that horse is lovely.


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## nikicb (9 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Gorgeous horse, Nikicb. I can't really fault his way of going for the stage he is at. He is tracking up well and accepting the contact. You have a tendancy to fix your hands downwards alittle, thereby breaking the line from elbow to bit (which I think is one of the most important things in acheiving a nice fluid contact) though they are better in the first photograph. 

Click to expand...

Thank you. 

I understand what you are saying about the hands - I'll try and work on lifting them, even though it feels a little strange.  I was having one of those post test training sessions with a judge that day, and she said I needed to lift them and allow him more forwards which I think is what you are saying as well.  My old mare was very sharp even in her later years so I probably got used to riding a little defensively.  I'm gradually gaining confidence with him now that I know he doesn't try to whizz off with me.


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## nikicb (9 September 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			Nikicb that horse is lovely.
		
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Thank you - I love him to pieces. 

Although not quite as much when he looks like this:


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 September 2012)

I'm going to be brave and submit Graymo as a - this is in an artificial outline - how it shouldn't be done lol!

Trot
http://www.horsephoto.co.uk/details.php?gid=1144&sgid=&pid=4614

http://www.horsephoto.co.uk/details.php?gid=1144&sgid=&pid=4642


Canter
http://www.horsephoto.co.uk/details.php?gid=1144&sgid=&pid=4633

http://www.horsephoto.co.uk/details.php?gid=1144&sgid=&pid=4606

One thing you can't deny though - he is a stunning horse  Or maybe I am just biased 

P.S. I should add that he is a work in progress as he used to be a racehorse and he is having his whole world restructured but please do add your thoughts.


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## Charlie Bucket (9 September 2012)

Ooh ooh ooh, can I please play CC too? 

This is my 6yr old TB X WD. 







Thanks -


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## Charlie Bucket (9 September 2012)

ps Nikicb your horse is lush, and looks like he's going fantastically for his age. A credit to you!


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## Dottie (9 September 2012)

Nikicb- he is gorgeous, he lOoks like my chap. What is his breeding?


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## xRobyn (9 September 2012)

Some beautiful horses here!

Phil has never really been asked to work in an outline except for the last two years (he is 12! ), for the most part I try to just get him nicely forward without ducking behind the bit (something he learnt not from me ).

This is the most recent photo I have, he was coming back into work following his SI injury. I'm pretty sure he's on the forehand but that white hind was his bad one and 3 months prior he was snatching it up in walk, let alone tracking up.






Prior to injury






Forward enough 






And just for laughs! (he will also do this undersaddle and in canter )


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## Jackson (9 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			In this photo your saddle is too far forward which will be interfering with his shoulder action. You are slumped in the saddle with rounded shoulders and stiff looking arms. You are sitting in a kind of armchair position, but it looks as though your saddle may be to blame here. Is it wide enough, as it seems to be tipping you backwards? Try sitting up taller and keeping your shoulders back but relaxed. Let your elbows hang by your waist. Hold the reins firmly. The softness in the rein should come right from your shoulders which should be free from restriction. Keep a straight line from your elbow to the bit.  The most imprtant thing with a horse that isn't tracking up is to get him pushing from behind. Forget about the front end until he is powering along.






Click to expand...

Thank you Wagtail. His saddle is an awful fit, it creeps up his withers, apart from being uncomfortable for him, it tips me back. I rarely ride in it and am saving up for a new one  

I can get him going very fast, but he just gets all flat like this:






But not really working in to the bridle.. maybe that will come when I sort my arms out?..


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## FfionWinnie (9 September 2012)

nikicb said:



			Thank you - I love him to pieces. 

Although not quite as much when he looks like this:

[/IMG]
		
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His only flaw is the colour lol


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## thinkitwasjune (9 September 2012)

Can I play too? Would love some CC: 5yo ex point-to-pointer - I know he is behind the vertical and we are still struggling to find a bit he is happy in, but pics are from our first prelim test, 3 weeks after I got him. That was at the end of May, no recent pics sadly!


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## nikicb (9 September 2012)

Charlie Bucket said:



			ps Nikicb your horse is lush, and looks like he's going fantastically for his age. A credit to you! 

Click to expand...




Dottie said:



			Nikicb- he is gorgeous, he lOoks like my chap. What is his breeding? 

Click to expand...

Thank you both.

The credit really has to go to the lovely girl who bought him from the Gorsebridge sales as a rising 4 year old and produced him so well for a year before I bought him.  I only hope I can continue his training in the same vein.

He's Connie x ISH - this is his breeding, but I really am not an expert so know nothing about any of these horses.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ind...CONUT+SHAKE&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=


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## showpony (9 September 2012)

I find my mare accepts contact & works in enough of an outline for a 4yo when she is warmed up , relaxed & focused on working...
Keen to see what you all think re confirmation etc that may help towards working her in a proper outline in the future.
couple of pics best I could find. ( please excuse my brutal position in a couple - new saddle has rectified things! ) 

Pedhlem bit only used for show & did not over used the double reins - she is normally ridden in a simple snaffle bit )


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## Katie__Connie (9 September 2012)

Farma said:



			Really like these pics, I wouldn't say he was downhill just a tad on the forehand and btv in one of the pics but overall a nice picture of horse and rider. I would be pleased if he was mine 

Click to expand...

Agree. My favourite of all the pictures posted so far


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## Zoobie (9 September 2012)

Funny enough in my lesson today my boy isn't very well schooled but tbh neither am I . My instructor was saying not to worry about my horse being in an outline but the fact that I had a contact was great . I did do the widening of the hands but not to my knees . Really interesting thread with some good advice .


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## OpalFruits (9 September 2012)

What I have been taught to do is lock my elbows to help keep the contact, obviously don't have a death grip on the reins, you still need quiet hands, and feel as though you're pushing your hips and bum to your hands so the horses head follows if that makes sense. It always helps me to imagine I'm in a bowl and I'm scooping up the side of the bowl haha sounds weird but it really helps :') You really need to exaggerate the movement 

I would suggest getting an instructor though if you want to do it properly, they are worth all their money in gold if you find a good one


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## nikicb (9 September 2012)

MillieMoo101 said:



			What I have been taught to do is lock my elbows to help keep the contact, obviously don't have a death grip on the reins, you still need quiet hands, and feel as though you're pushing your hips and bum to your hands so the horses head follows if that makes sense. It always helps me to imagine I'm in a bowel and I'm scooping up the side of the bowel haha sounds weird but it really helps :') You really need to exaggerate the movement 

I would suggest getting an instructor though if you want to do it properly, they are worth all their money in gold if you find a good one 

Click to expand...

A 'bowel' or a 'bowl'?  Sorry, I don't have nice pictures in my mind.


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## OpalFruits (9 September 2012)

nikicb said:



			A 'bowel' or a 'bowl'?  Sorry, I don't have nice pictures in my mind. 

Click to expand...

Omg i meant bowl! hahaha! Oh no!


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## nikicb (9 September 2012)

MillieMoo101 said:



			Omg i meant bowl! hahaha! Oh no! 

Click to expand...


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## JFTDWS (9 September 2012)

MillieMoo101 said:



			Omg i meant bowl! hahaha! Oh no! 

Click to expand...

The most unsavoury typo ever


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## Kokopelli (9 September 2012)

I can give some fab examples of a 'bad' outline:
Andy is 13 and only just being asked in the last year or so to work properlly. We've done it all without gadgets the main thing I was aiming for was when I say woah it means woah and when I say go it means go (not so much of an issue) as I wouldn't be able to bring his hind quarters underneath him until he understood this. I always give him a even soft contact to go into and I would push him into it without him going faster.













Both photos are bad as in both he is on the forehand not so much in the first. He is BTV in the second which I hate and he has a tendency to go deep when I ride like a numpty. In both photos he could be tracking up further as well but tbh I'm happy with him as before he would literally go with his ears in your face.

Would love CC on Louie though, he's 6 had a year out.

Working in a longer frame to help build topline











Both not using backend well enough (particularly bottom but I let him off as he was so weak at this stage)

2 weeks later:











Need to get my hand shigher and sit up more and hopefully he'll become lighter on forhand.


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## Armas (9 September 2012)

More long and low than an outline


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## pootleperkin (9 September 2012)

Katie__Connie said:



			Agree. My favourite of all the pictures posted so far 

Click to expand...

Thank you Katie_Connie 

Just schooled him this afternoon and OH took some video for me - judging from that, I need to work much harder on keeping my elbows in too, as instead of breaking the straight line from elbow to bit by having hands turned in or fixed down, I appear to occasionally do it by putting my elbows out instead!

Had a lesson the other day and we twigged that because his trot is so big, I have got into the habit of eliminating sitting trot from my transitions, so working on that, as without it he tends to hollow. However if I work him in sitting for too long, then he also starts to hollow on me and not go forward - probably due to me stiffening through my back and arms, so working on it in short batches. The benefit is that when I pick up rising again, he really moves forward without me having to pester  He has always been slightly behind the leg ever since he had EGS and suffered from lack of energy and we had to build his muscle back from scratch.

Any tips on specific exercises to help him start to lift off the forehand and free his shoulder more, also to help him find some lengthened strides? We are doing the usual - transitions, SI, LY etc and really asking for a clear trans on lengthening - some days he does it well-ish, others he doesn't! I think perhaps getting him fitter and stronger might be the key to it all.

It's never ending isn't it, this quest for improvement and perfection!


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## TigerTail (9 September 2012)

MillieMoo101 said:



			What I have been taught to do is lock my elbows to help keep the contact, obviously don't have a death grip on the reins, you still need quiet hands, and feel as though you're pushing your hips and bum to your hands so the horses head follows if that makes sense. It always helps me to imagine I'm in a bowl and I'm scooping up the side of the bowl haha sounds weird but it really helps :') You really need to exaggerate the movement 

I would suggest getting an instructor though if you want to do it properly, they are worth all their money in gold if you find a good one 

Click to expand...

Im really sorry but locking your elbows creates tension through your entire arm therefore you wont have soft hands and are forcing the head carriage rather than the horse having the gymnastic strength to carry himself. Also pushing with your hips and bum is essentially saddle sh***ing and depresses the horses back causing him to hollow and therefore any 'outline' you are achieving is a forced one rather than earned/given.


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## OpalFruits (9 September 2012)

JFTD said:



			The most unsavoury typo ever  

Click to expand...

I don't know what happened there!  I'm sorry to everyone!!


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## JFTDWS (9 September 2012)

MillieMoo101 said:



			I don't know what happened there!  I'm sorry to everyone!!
		
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Don't apologise, it made me laugh 


Armas, your pics have ruined my screen


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## Armas (9 September 2012)

JFTD said:



			Don't apologise, it made me laugh 


Armas, your pics have ruined my screen 

Click to expand...

Sorry they have been re sized but its down to photbucket delaying the re size.


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## showpony (9 September 2012)

Would love some constructive critisism... Am not easily offended 



showpony said:



			I find my mare accepts contact & works in enough of an outline for a 4yo when she is warmed up , relaxed & focused on working...
Keen to see what you all think re confirmation etc that may help towards working her in a proper outline in the future.
couple of pics best I could find. ( please excuse my brutal position in a couple - new saddle has rectified things! ) 

Pedhlem bit only used for show & did not over used the double reins - she is normally ridden in a simple snaffle bit ) 

























Click to expand...


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## OpalFruits (9 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			Im really sorry but locking your elbows creates tension through your entire arm therefore you wont have soft hands and are forcing the head carriage rather than the horse having the gymnastic strength to carry himself. Also pushing with your hips and bum is essentially saddle sh***ing and depresses the horses back causing him to hollow and therefore any 'outline' you are achieving is a forced one rather than earned/given.
		
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That is your opinion and I respect that but I know how I ride, if I had any tension I wouldn't do it because I don't want to hurt her mouth. As for the saddle thing, her back is checked regularly, if there was a problem, again, I'd stop.


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## pootleperkin (9 September 2012)

Kokopelli - I love little louie - such a difference in a little time - and also think you are being hard on yourself with the pics of Andy - I don't think he is eiher massively overbent or massively on the forehand, partic in the second pic. I think he looks like he is working well for the stage he is at.


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## Kokopelli (9 September 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			Kokopelli - I love little louie - such a difference in a little time - and also think you are being hard on yourself with the pics of Andy - I don't think he is eiher massively overbent or massively on the forehand, partic in the second pic. I think he looks like he is working well for the stage he is at.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you 

I love him too! Still working on that lottery win so I can buy him. 

I am very over critical of Andy, it sounds bad but I've given up with dressage with him he doesn't enjoy it so don't see the point in pushing him to do it. He's on holiday atm but the moment he comes back I'm going to try and push him once more and see if I can get a nice elementry test out of him so really want all the CC I can get and advice I can get. If it doesn't work we will just enjoy hacking, jumping and being a knobber.


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## JFTDWS (9 September 2012)

Armas said:



			Sorry they have been re sized but its down to photbucket delaying the re size.
		
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thanks


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## TigerTail (9 September 2012)

MillieMoo101 said:



			That is your opinion and I respect that but I know how I ride, if I had any tension I wouldn't do it because I don't want to hurt her mouth. As for the saddle thing, her back is checked regularly, if there was a problem, again, I'd stop.
		
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As a qualified classical dressage instructor Im obviously entirely ignorant of these matters  Its entirely possible you dont ride in the manner you describe but the way it reads is exactly as I said before. The pushing with the seat wouldn't necessarily damage the horses back just inhibit its way of going and prevent a TRUE outline rather than a forced one. Keeping any part of your body tense requires muscles to hold it in that position therefore bracing a part of you does in some way = tension. Doesnt mean you are pulling back on her mouth which is what causes damage, but does mean there is tension there rather than the horse being able to carry his head in that position naturally 

Kopelli the improvement between the first and last of those pics is huge you must be so proud  My only comment would be the saddle is putting you in an bad position, look at how your heel is a good 3 inches in front of your hip, so all your weight is right on his shoulders and means you come down on the back of the saddle, rather than both being nicely balanced and the weight distributed from the middle 

Aramas can you see how the lad riding has 'tractor hands' ? As in theyre nigh on over his own knees? This is something a lot of people teach riders to do to try and tease the horses head down basically by pulling the bit down on the bars of the mouth, rather than doing all the very slow lateral work needed to build up the hind end to achieve self carriage, rather than man hand carriage. Lovely horse though


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## Auslander (9 September 2012)

MillieMoo101 said:



			That is your opinion and I respect that but I know how I ride, if I had any tension I wouldn't do it because I don't want to hurt her mouth. As for the saddle thing, her back is checked regularly, if there was a problem, again, I'd stop.
		
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Sorry  - but it is impossible for there not to be tension if your elbow is locked. You may not be hurting her mouth, but you are restricting her ability to move her head and neck naturally. Also - you cannot expect her to offer a soft yielding contact if you aren't giving her one. A fixed elbow can help to get the nose tucked in, but that is not a correct outline. To get that, you need to be pushing her from behind into a soft steady hand, channeling the forward energy you create with the leg upwards.

It is possible (although not ideal) to get away with a fixed elbow to a degree in trot, because there is less natural movement of the head, but in walk and canter, if your elbow is fixed, the horse will be be unable to move her head and neck, and will therefore be restricted from going freely forward.

You may find that she goes even better if you soften your elbow. A momentary "Hey - come back to me" block is one thing, but fixed elbows aren't conducive to a correct way of going.


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## pootleperkin (9 September 2012)

Completely agree tiger tail. Re pushing out with your seat, I was taught to do that by a riding school  many moons ago and have been trying to stop myself from doing it ever since! It was really brought home to me years ago when I had a lesson on a dressage schoolmaster- I tried to push it put from the seat and couldn't get it to move! I had to sit quietly in the saddle, with a loose pelvis (if you know what I mean!) Then the horse moved forward for me - quite an eye opener!


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## OpalFruits (9 September 2012)

TigerTail I never once suggested that you are ignorant. Thank you all for replying, and I shall try what you suggest.


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## Auslander (9 September 2012)

Armas said:



			Sorry they have been re sized but its down to photbucket delaying the re size.
		
Click to expand...

They are still huge - which is a pita for those of us on netbooks. What size have you reduced them to? Could be that its still not small enough - 800x600 is about the max that I would post on a forum.


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## rhino (9 September 2012)

Auslander said:



			They are still huge - which is a pita for those of us on netbooks. What size have you reduced them to? Could be that its still not small enough - 800x600 is about the max that I would post on a forum.
		
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They're showing smaller than that on mine - checked the properties and everything 

Showpony - I can't tell much from those photos except that you have a very pretty horse. Do you have any more photos - preferably side on?


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## Kokopelli (9 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			Kopelli the improvement between the first and last of those pics is huge you must be so proud  My only comment would be the saddle is putting you in an bad position, look at how your heel is a good 3 inches in front of your hip, so all your weight is right on his shoulders and means you come down on the back of the saddle, rather than both being nicely balanced and the weight distributed from the middle 

Click to expand...

I'm very pleased with the little guy, he recently has improved again and he feels amazing, sometimes I can't believe he is 14.2  sadly it doesn't pay off because he believes at shows everything is going to eat him so we're getting him out and about a lot 

The saddle is very frustrating, I've tried dropping my stirrups a few holes but felt I then lost connection with him because even though I have tiny legs he has nothing to take them up. I'm not keen on buying him a new saddle as I have to sell him next summer  Any suggestions that may help until I win the lottery?


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## Auslander (9 September 2012)

rhino said:



			They're showing smaller than that on mine - checked the properties and everything 

Click to expand...

They've shrunk now - I can breathe again!


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## thinkitwasjune (9 September 2012)

thinkitwasjune said:



			Can I play too? Would love some CC: 5yo ex point-to-pointer - I know he is behind the vertical and we are still struggling to find a bit he is happy in, but pics are from our first prelim test, 3 weeks after I got him. That was at the end of May, no recent pics sadly!












Click to expand...

Pretty please? Anyone?


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## JFTDWS (9 September 2012)

still massive on mine and I'm on a laptop too


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## TigerTail (9 September 2012)

Hi TIWJ  Pics are quite hard to critique, vid much better! He's only a tiny bit behind the vertical in the 2nd, about the same in the 1st but hard to tell cos of the angle of the pic. It looks to me like he is leaning on the bit and your hands, if you look at your arms they are nigh on straight. He needs to learn to carry the bit rather than tow away on it and get his balance from pulling against you if that makes sense. Needs to be using his back end more, so lots of slooooow walk work and lateral work before sloooow trot work


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## rowy (9 September 2012)

thinkitwasjune said:



			Pretty please? Anyone?
		
Click to expand...

I will have a go. 
I think your horse has lovely paces  
Contact wise, he is just, as you say, coming behind the vertical. Plus head is a little low and poll is meant to be the highest point but not a majour concern on a novice horse. 
Position of rider is good except in first pic the leg seems to be swinging quite far back although you are going around a turn so may be the reason. 
I get the feeling he is not quite going forward enough in the pic and would like to see more power from the hind end pushing through and lifting the head and poll a little. 
But overall, not bad for a prelim horse  I'm sure he will look stunning once more established and muscly!


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## pootleperkin (9 September 2012)

We can't leave you out ThinkitwasJune!

For me, he looks very heavy in front, but he is trying to work hard from behind. He looks like he is trying so hard, bless him! I think he needs to be built up (any recent pics of him stood up) behind the saddle and in front come to that, in order to help him carry himself. Lots of lateral work methinks and pole work.

Your position looks quite nice, maybe sit up a little more (something I don't do enough) with a bit more bend in elbow, thumbs on top, to help him even more by lifting your weight off his front end - in the second pic, I think you look good, however, he looks like he is leaning on you , so try dropping him for a second or two every now and then, so he learns that he can't rely on you to carry him all the time.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 September 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0afdFsckffo


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## thinkitwasjune (9 September 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			We can't leave you out ThinkitwasJune!

For me, he looks very heavy in front, but he is trying to work hard from behind. He looks like he is trying so hard, bless him! I think he needs to be built up (any recent pics of him stood up) behind the saddle and in front come to that, in order to help him carry himself. Lots of lateral work methinks and pole work.

Your position looks quite nice, maybe sit up a little more (something I don't do enough) with a bit more bend in elbow, thumbs on top, to help him even more by lifting your weight off his front end - in the second pic, I think you look good, however, he looks like he is leaning on you , so try dropping him for a second or two every now and then, so he learns that he can't rely on you to carry him all the time.
		
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Thank you everyone  He is such a sweetie but he can be quite heavy in front at times and I'm not really sure what to do with him  I think he may be the least forward racehorse ever! I've been working on loads of transitions between the paces and also started asking for collection and extension in trot. We do our best with poles but the poor baby is a bit scared of them still  Oh and we are on a circle in the first pic if that helps! Like I said, this was our first ever dressage test and we got all 6s and 7s (and came third ) and some great comments from the judge so I was very pleased with him! I'm also working hard on my own position as I know I won't get the best out of him if I'm all wonky


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## showpony (9 September 2012)

Would love some Critique?



showpony said:



			I find my mare accepts contact & works in enough of an outline for a 4yo when she is warmed up , relaxed & focused on working...
Keen to see what you all think re confirmation etc that may help towards working her in a proper outline in the future.
couple of pics best I could find. ( please excuse my brutal position in a couple - new saddle has rectified things! ) 

Pedhlem bit only used for show & did not over used the double reins - she is normally ridden in a simple snaffle bit ) 

























Click to expand...


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## pootleperkin (9 September 2012)

Hi Show pony,

As I think Rhino said, it's kind of hard to critique from these photos - need more from the side and closer up?

From what I can see, she looks lovely, but it's fair to say if it was the saddle causing you to tip forward, it wasn't doing you any favours at all!  From what I can see of photo 3, you aren't tipped forward so much and so can have a more active seat and a more relaxed contact - hard to tell from that distance though - better pics needed


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## Sugar_and_Spice (10 September 2012)

EKW I  can't see the video on my phone, but the earlier photos you're right its a forced outline. Show riders seem to like the horses heads up in a more advanced outline than what the rest of the horses body is ready for, if that makes sense. I'd lengthen the rein a little even if the horse pokes his nose out. Work on getting him relaxed so the head comes down. As he learns to take more weight on his quarters (which he can't do at the minute due to being blocked at the front), the forehand will lighten and raise, the head will drop and the nose will come in. It all starts from the back end. All he's done at the moment is shorten his neck and tuck his nose in. 

Robyn, your horse is a little on the forehand, as you say, but not awful and heading in the right direction. I'm sure you'll get back to how you were before his injury, if he has made a full recovery. It just takes time.

Jackson I've only seen your second pics (page 16 I think) the bareback is better. In the second pic he's running on and out of balance and so are you. Like a human running down a steep hill and once you've started you can't stop. Speed yes, forwards movement yes, but no control of power. Power does not mean speed. Power means impulsion. Impulsion is, um, bounce? The bounce sends the horse forward, as if there was springs under each hoof. That's the best way I can think of describing it (its late and my brains not working sorry). In the bareback pic, though its better, he still looks a little tense. He's tight through the neck and back which is why he's not tracking up. Keep him slow like that pic, but lengthen your reins, encourage relaxation of his topline and lowering of his head. What's going on with your shoulders and neck in the bareback pic? Is it bad posture or do you have damage? You lean back at the shoulders and forward at the neck. Ideally you need to sit up straight with a straight line from your ear through your shoulder, hip and heel. Perhaps you can't do it due to a physical injury in your back or neck? How do you stand when off the horse, is your posture any better? Your back, shoulders and neck at the moment will stop horse going forward properly, blocking his movement and causing the tension in his back and neck. Are you maybe stiff in the lower back, absorbing the movement through your neck instead? Are you struggling to fit narrow hips round a wide cob without a saddle? Your hips need to swing to absorb the horses movement. At the moment you'll probably be nodding your head in trot and rowing with your shoulders in canter, instead of these areas staying still (relaxed still, not tense still). By sorting your position out you have the potential to make a big difference to your horse.


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 September 2012)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			EKW I  can't see the video on my phone, but the earlier photos you're right its a forced outline. Show riders seem to like the horses heads up in a more advanced outline than what the rest of the horses body is ready for, if that makes sense. I'd lengthen the rein a little even if the horse pokes his nose out. Work on getting him relaxed so the head comes down. As he learns to take more weight on his quarters (which he can't do at the minute due to being blocked at the front), the forehand will lighten and raise, the head will drop and the nose will come in. It all starts from the back end. All he's done at the moment is shorten his neck and tuck his nose in.
		
Click to expand...

I whole heartedly agree with you and he has spent all summer being reschooled and is now working much, much more correctly. What may surprise you slightly is that in those photos he hadn't actually had much reschooling since leaving racing. I rattled him out to a show as soon as I could as I new he could ponce around and look pretty enough on the surface. He was exactly the same in training with us and I have seen workout videos from his 2 and 3yo days in America and he is highly amusing to watch. He tucked his head in to work but when you press the go faster button the head comes in further, the tongue goes out, the ears go back, the tail swishes, he really points his toes and his legs move faster - that is all, in all his work he never once lengthened his stride only made his legs go like jack hammers. All on no contact. Only at the end of his races where it really mattered did you see this beautiful long stride really come to the fore, the head went out, the shoulders dropped, the backend got into gear and he had one hell of an engine. It's just a shame his legs couldn't hack it. 

I'll try and get some more recent photos of his work these days. We still have a very long way to go but at least now he is using his backend. The head has dropped down and now just needs refining and most of this is due to trotting poles where he really dropped and lengthened over them to get the idea of what I was asking him to do.

The video is another - how not to do it. The horse is very on the forehand and down hill and the video was taen on his first day out of training. I thought they would be interesting for people to see what may look right but really isn't underneath. 

I think I have a video of my dartmoor pony somewhere putting it all together and working in a true outline. I shall try to find it.


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## redmone (10 September 2012)

Hi everyone!

Firstly this has been an awesome thread and I've learnt loads from following and reading it.  It's been really interesting (as a non riding mum of pony mad child) comparing my novice thoughts to what's obviously very experienced opinion.  There's been a few cases where I've not been too far off the mark, but there's been some where I've been a million miles away!!!

Anyway, I'm going to be brave now and throw a couple of photos of Daughter and Dolly into the mix, for comments and advice.

Getting an outline was never a factor for us (in fact, I've only known what one was in the past few months!) but since they've been competing much more often, they started getting many comments about "lacking bend" "nose poking" and "needs a soften outline" so we sought the advice of some great instructors and have been working on trying to improve.

The general jist I'm getting is that the "way of going" is more important than the head position (which if I understand correctly, should happen - ish - if pony uses body correctly) so daughter is working on getting Dolly straight off her leg, and really active in all paces.  Lots of bending exercises, lots of circles and lots of effort to sit nicely and have quiet hands.  Does that all sound ok?

Dolly doesn't naturally work this way, but she seems a quick learner and in only a few weeks, is carrying herself much lower (although not round).

So here's the photos for your comments.







before much work was done (you can see these photos were taken end of winter I think)













in canter (seems hardest!)







a couple of weeks ago at the end of a fantastic lessson (sorry this photo is a little dark)


In one lesson, we used the pelham and Daughter was taught how to use double reins.  This seemed to help, and was useful because at a couple of shows (show hunter pony - BSPS being one) we were told she should have been in the pelham and double reins, which was frustrating because we've spent 12 months getting her into the snaffle ***sigh***!!!

Can I have your thoughts please?  I could probably find a video if it would help.

Just to note, this isn't a major issue for us.  Dolly's flexibility has improved massively anyway in the past year so we're just happy that she's healthier and fitter.  

Thanks everyone


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## Alyth (10 September 2012)

I have just started reading Mary Wanless's books - she explains it so well.....the book that I have found best to start with is "RWYM Clinic".....you can't have the head without the back is the basis of it..!!!


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

showpony said:



			Would love some Critique?
		
Click to expand...

Hi there. Your horse is gorgeous. Yes he is on the forehand but this can easily be addressed by a shift in your position. You are tipping forwards which will make it difficult for him to lighten up in front. Part of this may be because he is pulling you down and forward, but this is not his fault. Looking at the pics I would guess you have an instructor (or have had an instructor) who tells you to keep shortening your reins. You are perching on your 'front bottom' rather than your seat bones. Shift your position so that the majority of your weight is in you seat bones. Sit tall and relax your shoulders. Hang your elbows by your side and take up the contact. You will find your reins will have to be quite a bit longer. Keep your elbows bent and use them to take up the slack in the rein rather than leaning forwards with straight arms. If you keep this position then your core will be stronger and it will be harder for your horse to tip you forwards.


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

redmone said:



			Hi everyone!

Firstly this has been an awesome thread and I've learnt loads from following and reading it.  It's been really interesting (as a non riding mum of pony mad child) comparing my novice thoughts to what's obviously very experienced opinion.  There's been a few cases where I've not been too far off the mark, but there's been some where I've been a million miles away!!!

Anyway, I'm going to be brave now and throw a couple of photos of Daughter and Dolly into the mix, for comments and advice.

Getting an outline was never a factor for us (in fact, I've only known what one was in the past few months!) but since they've been competing much more often, they started getting many comments about "lacking bend" "nose poking" and "needs a soften outline" so we sought the advice of some great instructors and have been working on trying to improve.

The general jist I'm getting is that the "way of going" is more important than the head position (which if I understand correctly, should happen - ish - if pony uses body correctly) so daughter is working on getting Dolly straight off her leg, and really active in all paces.  Lots of bending exercises, lots of circles and lots of effort to sit nicely and have quiet hands.  Does that all sound ok?

Dolly doesn't naturally work this way, but she seems a quick learner and in only a few weeks, is carrying herself much lower (although not round).

So here's the photos for your comments.







before much work was done (you can see these photos were taken end of winter I think)













in canter (seems hardest!)







a couple of weeks ago at the end of a fantastic lessson (sorry this photo is a little dark)


In one lesson, we used the pelham and Daughter was taught how to use double reins.  This seemed to help, and was useful because at a couple of shows (show hunter pony - BSPS being one) we were told she should have been in the pelham and double reins, which was frustrating because we've spent 12 months getting her into the snaffle ***sigh***!!!

Can I have your thoughts please?  I could probably find a video if it would help.

Just to note, this isn't a major issue for us.  Dolly's flexibility has improved massively anyway in the past year so we're just happy that she's healthier and fitter.  

Thanks everyone 

Click to expand...

Your daughter has a lovely position. Looking at the pony I suspect that flexing at the poll is not the most easy thing for her as she is quite thick through the throat area. I can see just by looking at her that she will not be the easiest pony to get into a nice working outline. You may think it strange when I say that IMO your daughter is riding with her reins too short, as actually the pony is poking her nose and working in a very strung out outline, and so the natural thing to do is shorten the reins. However, this often just compounds the issue. Look at the lovely bottom photograph. Your daughters reins are actually a good three inches longer and she is nicely taking up the contact by bringing her elbows back. Imagine how much nicer for the horse this feeling is, than a straight, blocking arm? In that photograph, the pony is in a pelham which has poll action and would have helped your daughter to get her to flex. Obviously, it would be nice to get her to do this in a snaffle, but using the pelham occasionally, will allow your daughter to feel what it is like and this will help her achieve the same thing in a snaffle.


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

Indiangel said:



			quick question, what do people think of my mares conformation for dressage? she's a 6yro welsh D x. she's been focusing on dressage (as have I!) for about 6 months







I apologise for the stains but she's coloured 







she does not work consistently in an outline, but neither do I want her too at this stage. she has moments of it and my #1 focus is getting her working nicely from behind




















I know my position is not perfect (tendancy to perch and wandering elbows, plus I'm a knee griper) but I'm working very hard on it
		
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Agree with what Rhino has said. However, the single biggest problem is your arms. You are fixing your hands ridgedly downwards. Yo need to relax your shoulders and hang your elbows by your waist and bend them. Lovely horse!


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

xRobyn said:



			Some beautiful horses here!

Phil has never really been asked to work in an outline except for the last two years (he is 12! ), for the most part I try to just get him nicely forward without ducking behind the bit (something he learnt not from me ).

This is the most recent photo I have, he was coming back into work following his SI injury. I'm pretty sure he's on the forehand but that white hind was his bad one and 3 months prior he was snatching it up in walk, let alone tracking up.






Prior to injury






Forward enough 






And just for laughs! (he will also do this undersaddle and in canter )





Click to expand...

Really loely boy you have! He is nice and foreward and tracking up well. Your position is pretty good and not hindering him in any way. Keep up the good work. I suspects using plenty of transitions and half halts will lighten him up in front, but generally you make a very pleasing picture for novice level.


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

thinkitwasjune said:



			Can I play too? Would love some CC: 5yo ex point-to-pointer - I know he is behind the vertical and we are still struggling to find a bit he is happy in, but pics are from our first prelim test, 3 weeks after I got him. That was at the end of May, no recent pics sadly!












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He is not really behind the vertical as he is working in a low outline. If he was vertical or slightly in front of it he would be poking his nose. He looks like a lovely mover and very active both in front and behind. He is also bending and stepping through nicely. I think you are doing a very good job.


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

Kokopelli said:



			I can give some fab examples of a 'bad' outline:
Andy is 13 and only just being asked in the last year or so to work properlly. We've done it all without gadgets the main thing I was aiming for was when I say woah it means woah and when I say go it means go (not so much of an issue) as I wouldn't be able to bring his hind quarters underneath him until he understood this. I always give him a even soft contact to go into and I would push him into it without him going faster.













Both photos are bad as in both he is on the forehand not so much in the first. He is BTV in the second which I hate and he has a tendency to go deep when I ride like a numpty. In both photos he could be tracking up further as well but tbh I'm happy with him as before he would literally go with his ears in your face.

Would love CC on Louie though, he's 6 had a year out.

Working in a longer frame to help build topline











Both not using backend well enough (particularly bottom but I let him off as he was so weak at this stage)

2 weeks later:











Need to get my hand shigher and sit up more and hopefully he'll become lighter on forhand.
		
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Louie is absolutely stunning. You have him working really well over his back in a nice round novice outline. Can't see anything to criticise.


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

Armas said:



			More long and low than an outline 


















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Hi Armas, another stunning horse! He is very much on his forehand, though I see you are working him long and low. In the first and third picture you are tipping forward somewhat, which will in itself put him onto the forehand.


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

Great thread  TrOuble- in my opinion yours in the best example of a nice 'outline' so far 

heres a couple of my pics. I know she can (& does!) go much better but this was my first ever show & I was a bit nervous/preoccupied!! 



[Content removed]

I know shes a bit flat on this one but I think it demonstrates that she is moving 'forwards'....

[Content removed]


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

ps. I am aware of my bad position on the 2nd photo- the first one is a better example of my normal position! 

Wagtail- reposting those pics has made my screen go mental!?!


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## pootleperkin (10 September 2012)

Wow Wagtail - you have been busy this morning  

It's super interesting comparing everyones' cc; kept me interested over the weekend anyway and a great way to learn. Poor old Gully, I'm now quite enthuused and just want to school all the time!


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

elsazzo said:



			ps. I am aware of my bad position on the 2nd photo- the first one is a better example of my normal position! 

Wagtail- reposting those pics has made my screen go mental!?!
		
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You mean me reposting them? I did it so people could see what I was talking about without having to flip back over the pages. Sorry!


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## Lucyad (10 September 2012)

Really interesting thread.

Would love some critique on me and my boy....I struggle to keep him light in the hand as he has a tendency to lean on me, and go on his forehand.  He is built on his forehand anyway, and has bone spavin which I suspect makes the problem worse.  











in a recent lesson.






at the begining of a dresage test...





...which sometimes goes pair-shaped something like this!


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

pootleperkin said:



			Wow Wagtail - you have been busy this morning  

Click to expand...

Haha, yes. It's just that I'm putting off doing a weeks worth of poo picking for seven horses.  Got to go now though.


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

LucyAd he looks like he has a lovely active hind leg- something Im always drawn to in a horse! maybe a tad heavy in front like you say but other than that some really nice pics


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

sorry wagtail- I meant RE posting!


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## Pearlsasinger (10 September 2012)

Redmone, your last photo is lovely.  I agree wholeheartedly with Wagtail's comments.

In fact I agree with her comments all through-out the thread.  Some others, just off the top of my head, that I agree with are Sugar-and-Spice and Tiger tail.

The ONLY perfect rider position that I have seen is in Adorable Alice's photos.  that is what your daughter should be aiming for.  If she gets that right, any horse she rides will be helped to develop the right muscles to work correctly.  As you say the head position is the last thing to worry about.
Some of the photos have appalled me - why any-one would put them up for others to see, I cannot imagine.  Some of the comments are even worse and some of the comments by people who have also put up photos, explain why their horses are not going 'correctly'.  Many people do not seem to understand the direct correlation between rider position and horse's position/way of going.  Yes some horses' conformation inhibits their movement but not half as much as some riders' positions!


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## PaddyMonty (10 September 2012)

Rare pic of me doing stressage stuff
Do your worst.


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## showpony (10 September 2012)

My position for one was brutal in couple of pics I put up - at the time saddle I had was tipping me forward something terrible. BUT had to ride in it while current saddle was being made. TBH I think most of us are open for constructive critisism.. I have no issue with people seeing pics - sure isn't this about improving etc?



Pearlsasinger said:



			Redmone, your last photo is lovely.  I agree wholeheartedly with Wagtail's comments.

In fact I agree with her comments all through-out the thread.  Some others, just off the top of my head, that I agree with are Sugar-and-Spice and Tiger tail.

The ONLY perfect rider position that I have seen is in Adorable Alice's photos.  that is what your daughter should be aiming for.  If she gets that right, any horse she rides will be helped to develop the right muscles to work correctly.  As you say the head position is the last thing to worry about.
Some of the photos have appalled me - why any-one would put them up for others to see, I cannot imagine.  Some of the comments are even worse and some of the comments by people who have also put up photos, explain why their horses are not going 'correctly'.  Many people do not seem to understand the direct correlation between rider position and horse's position/way of going.  Yes some horses' conformation inhibits their movement but not half as much as some riders' positions!
		
Click to expand...


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## TigerTail (10 September 2012)

Pearlsaginger -  thankyou  Some of the comments have made me want to bang my head on a wall as to where on earth people have picked up these ideas and think theyre correct  I dont agree with everything Wagtail has said though, for eg in Aramas pic its not long and low so much as leaning on the bit in an attempt to relieve the pressure on the bars of its mouth from the tractor hands of the rider but hey ho 


Lucyads - your first two pics are lovely, they are the best human arm and hand examples in this thread (also love the big grin it is about having fun after all!) The hands could be a little higher ideally. The horse is in a really lovely position in first 3 pics looks like hes really starting to power through from behind, hence your arms not being straight or locked hauling his head in  Despite his breed he is def not the heaviest looking horse of this thread, far from it in fact, heavy horses can be beautifully light in the hands and leg too! Pic 4 is just him showing off he'd have a lovely piaffe 

Paddy Monty - he's very slightly behind the vertical but its not too terrible! I think you are trying to hld him there by bracing with your back, also suspect you are gripping with your knees causing your lower leg to swing back wards, dont forget to think about rolling your little toes down to get your feet pointing forwards rather than out sideways. He is on his forehand though and def needs lots of sloooow trot work and walk - canter transitions to improve the impulsion


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## Lucyad (10 September 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Some of the photos have appalled me - why any-one would put them up for others to see, I cannot imagine.  Some of the comments are even worse and some of the comments by people who have also put up photos, explain why their horses are not going 'correctly'.  Many people do not seem to understand the direct correlation between rider position and horse's position/way of going.  Yes some horses' conformation inhibits their movement but not half as much as some riders' positions!
		
Click to expand...

Speaking only for myself, but I am highly aware that position affects the horses way of going, and can assure you that I have not put photos to 'appal' you but to get some specific criticism that might help!  And I specifically have put in a pic of what happens when things fall appart, as I thought it might be useful for those helping.

I don't think a dig at those posting photos is helpful at all - if people are taking them time to post useful comments, then surely the help is worth the embarrasment of having their dodgy position pictured on a forum! (which after all hurts no-one).


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

lucyAds- I forgot to say - you might find him a little lighter on the forehand if you turn your hands so your thumbs are on top


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## nikicb (10 September 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Redmone, your last photo is lovely.  I agree wholeheartedly with Wagtail's comments.

In fact I agree with her comments all through-out the thread.  Some others, just off the top of my head, that I agree with are Sugar-and-Spice and Tiger tail.

The ONLY perfect rider position that I have seen is in Adorable Alice's photos.  that is what your daughter should be aiming for.  If she gets that right, any horse she rides will be helped to develop the right muscles to work correctly.  As you say the head position is the last thing to worry about.
*Some of the photos have appalled me - why any-one would put them up for others to see, I cannot imagine.  Some of the comments are even worse and some of the comments by people who have also put up photos, explain why their horses are not going 'correctly'.  Many people do not seem to understand the direct correlation between rider position and horse's position/way of going.  Yes some horses' conformation inhibits their movement but not half as much as some riders' positions!*

Click to expand...

I usually 'sing off the same hymn sheet' as you, but I do think this is a tad harsh, especially the part in bold.  Not everybody (myself included) is born with the perfect position and the skills to ride a horse to its best.  We all have to learn and some of us probably know that it isn't working but don't know what to change to make it happen.  Comments like yours above will make people reluctant to open themselves up for _constructive _criticism and nothing will ever change to the possible detriment of their horse.  Rather than a sweeping generalisation, perhaps you would spare the time to impart your knowledge as Wagtail and many others have.


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## Lucyad (10 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			Lucyads - your first two pics are lovely, they are the best human arm and hand examples in this thread (also love the big grin it is about having fun after all!) The horse is in a really lovely position in first 3 pics looks like hes really starting to power through from behind, hence your arms not being straight or locked hauling his head in  Despite his breed he is def not the heaviest looking horse of this thread, far from it in fact, heavy horses can be beautifully light in the hands and leg too! Pic 4 is just him showing off he'd have a lovely piaffe 

Click to expand...

Thank you for taking the time to comment.  The last pic is him doing what he has a tendency to do on grass, and is saying 'bog off, I can see a cross country course!'  and he tries to pull me out of the saddle.  I find it really difficult to have enough core strength to keep him together without getting into a pulling battle, which I always loose.  I see photos of tests and some look OK to me, but there are always a few horrible ones like this that just make me want to drop the reins and ride on the buckle for ever more!

ETA, thanks about thumbs comment as well - I am terrible! (my 7 year old daughter now shouts at me to imagine I have birds on my thumbs!).


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

Pearlsasinger- people are looking for help on here. Perhaps you could let us see a pic of you on your horse and demonstrate how its done?


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

perhaps this is a better example of our trot......


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## JFTDWS (10 September 2012)

I posted these a while back, I wonder if anyone other that rhino would care to comment.  



JFTD said:



			can I play?

On a better day, mine goes a bit like this...







despite me doing horrible pully things with my inside hand 







However, I have a horrible habit of dropping my hands and making him tense, blocking him coming through behind etc.













(last photo is really vile, I know)
		
Click to expand...


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## Pearlsasinger (10 September 2012)

elsazzo said:



			Pearlsasinger- people are looking for help on here. Perhaps you could let us see a pic of you on your horse and demonstrate how its done?




Click to expand...

You don't need a picture of me, just look at Adorable Alice's photos.  That is what I aim for but certainly don't always succeed.

I have been surprised that some people put some photos up, looking for cc when surely they can see for themselves, that their hands are turned over blocking the horse, their chins are down, thus pushing the horse onto the fore-hand, their bodies are slumped, their legs too far back/forward.  I know that a photo is just a snapshot of a moment in time and it is quite possible that many riders adjusted their position and so their horses way of going in the next moment.
I often get a friend to video my schooling sessions and then spend ages picking them to bits.

I made generalised comments because I didn't want to single individuals out.  Any-one who considers that my comments don't pertain to them can ignore them.


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## Littlelegs (10 September 2012)

I think pearlsasinger has actually raised an important issue. While there is nothing wrong with having faults, & seeking to correct them it is interesting to figure out why they come about in the first place. I'll be the first to admit I am a bit obsessive about position. I spent most of my childhood riding bareback, then I had the opportunity to ride a fantastic psg schoolmaster who fell apart if you so much as moved one hand half a cm. Therefore the huge importance of position is something I feel strongly about. My daughter at 7 still doesn't ride regularly in a saddle, its either bareback or ponypad, & she never used the reins till 4/5 to communicate anything, so that when she did she had both the balance & understanding to only use them as they should be. As a result she does have a fab position that is always complimented, without me having to do much or correct it. And whilst I do realise that learning as a child has big advantages, I do question why so many people, both kids & adults, are being taught to interfere with the horses way of going before having a good position themselves. That isn't a criticism of anyone on here, anyone can pick up faults & how you learned originally, good or bad isn't anyone's fault. But if as a whole everyone focused on teaching & learning a near perfect position, riding would be of a better standard & horses would have less schooling issues that needed correcting. 
  A few years ago I taught a non horsey mum, who's only aim was to hack with her child when she couldn't keep up on foot, on a safe horse. Whilst she has no interest in schooling, I still taught her a good position, so whilst knowing only aids for basics, horses do go quite nicely for her cos she isn't effecting them badly, even if not improving them. Whereas time & again, here & in rl, you here of how quickly someone's picked up riding, cantering & jumping of lr within 3/4 months of first sitting on a horse. And the resulting position makes me cringe tbh. Because somewhere down the line its always causes problems. So much simpler to learn correctly in the first place.


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## JFTDWS (10 September 2012)

littlelegs, I do agree with what you say, but I fail to see how it is relevant to the context of this thread, given that those of us asking for cc clearly agree that position influences way of going, and we are seeking to improve it.  It's all very well to say it should be taught correctly in the first instance, but we are not all so fortunate as to begin our riding education with position-obsessed purists.  Though fwiw, I also spent my teenage years bareback 

Pearlsasinger, I also video regularly and deconstruct my position and my horse's way of going.  That doesn't mean a fresh pair of eyes, or a more experienced pair won't be able to highlight something I have missed.  I don't think your attitude is exactly helpful, slating people who have been open with their own failings on the forum.


eta, whoever's photos have messed up the thread, can you please fix them, it's infuriating not being able to read comments.


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

JFTD said:



			littlelegs, I do agree with what you say, but I fail to see how it is relevant to the context of this thread, given that those of us asking for cc clearly agree that position influences way of going, and we are seeking to improve it.  It's all very well to say it should be taught correctly in the first instance, but we are not all so fortunate as to begin our riding education with position-obsessed purists.  Though fwiw, I also spent my teenage years bareback 

Pearlsasinger, I also video regularly and deconstruct my position and my horse's way of going.  That doesn't mean a fresh pair of eyes, or a more experienced pair won't be able to highlight something I have missed.  I don't think your attitude is exactly helpful, slating people who have been open with their own failings on the forum.


eta, whoever's photos have messed up the thread, can you please fix them, it's infuriating not being able to read comments.
		
Click to expand...

JFTD I agree with your comments 

Its all very well saying this is how I 'aspire' to ride pearlsasinger! Im sure most of us aspire to ride like somebody but getting that brain-body connection isnt alway easy. If it was we would all be riding like Charlotte Dujardin (or whoever it is you admire)....

anyway, anyone willing to give me some CC on the 3 pics I posted?


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## Pearlsasinger (10 September 2012)

littlelegs said:



			I think pearlsasinger has actually raised an important issue. While there is nothing wrong with having faults, & seeking to correct them it is interesting to figure out why they come about in the first place. I'll be the first to admit I am a bit obsessive about position. I spent most of my childhood riding bareback, then I had the opportunity to ride a fantastic psg schoolmaster who fell apart if you so much as moved one hand half a cm. Therefore the huge importance of position is something I feel strongly about. My daughter at 7 still doesn't ride regularly in a saddle, its either bareback or ponypad, & she never used the reins till 4/5 to communicate anything, so that when she did she had both the balance & understanding to only use them as they should be. As a result she does have a fab position that is always complimented, without me having to do much or correct it. And whilst I do realise that learning as a child has big advantages, I do question why so many people, both kids & adults, are being taught to interfere with the horses way of going before having a good position themselves. That isn't a criticism of anyone on here, anyone can pick up faults & how you learned originally, good or bad isn't anyone's fault. But if as a whole everyone focused on teaching & learning a near perfect position, riding would be of a better standard & horses would have less schooling issues that needed correcting. 
  A few years ago I taught a non horsey mum, who's only aim was to hack with her child when she couldn't keep up on foot, on a safe horse. Whilst she has no interest in schooling, I still taught her a good position, so whilst knowing only aids for basics, horses do go quite nicely for her cos she isn't effecting them badly, even if not improving them. Whereas time & again, here & in rl, you here of how quickly someone's picked up riding, cantering & jumping of lr within 3/4 months of first sitting on a horse. And the resulting position makes me cringe tbh. Because somewhere down the line its always causes problems. So much simpler to learn correctly in the first place.
		
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Ll you have put extremely well (better than I managed to) what I was trying to say.  I must admit to not feeling well today, with amongst other things an horrendous headache, which I expect is making me very grumpy.

I was very fortunate to start riding whilst young and to have 2 very good teachers for the first 7 years of my riding career, with very good ponies and horses to ride, the majority of which didn't just work in the RS but were also show ponies and hunters.  Group lessons were the norm and we learned as much from watching each other as we did from our own riding. I cannot remember either RI commenting on the horse's way of going but can remember lots of comments on position.  When the rider's position was right the horse/pony went well.
I felt, reading many of the comments, that riders were expecting the horse's way of going to improve without the rider's position being corrected.

ETA Perhaps what I should have said is that I was surprised that almost all the comments, with a few notable exceptions, have been about the horses rather than about the riders.


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## Pearlsasinger (10 September 2012)

JFTD said:



			littlelegs, I do agree with what you say, but I fail to see how it is relevant to the context of this thread, given that those of us asking for cc clearly agree that position influences way of going, and we are seeking to improve it.  It's all very well to say it should be taught correctly in the first instance, but we are not all so fortunate as to begin our riding education with position-obsessed purists.  Though fwiw, I also spent my teenage years bareback 

Pearlsasinger, I also video regularly and deconstruct my position and my horse's way of going.  That doesn't mean a fresh pair of eyes, or a more experienced pair won't be able to highlight something I have missed.  I don't think your attitude is exactly helpful, slating people who have been open with their own failings on the forum.


eta, whoever's photos have messed up the thread, can you please fix them, it's infuriating not being able to read comments.
		
Click to expand...

OK, in the first photo, your chin and hands both need to be lifted.  This will help your horse to lift his back and become rounder.  Will that do?


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## JFTDWS (10 September 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			OK, in the first photo, your chin and hands both need to be lifted.  This will help your horse to lift his back and become rounder.  Will that do?
		
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Not especially since those are the two things I am painfully aware of (noting my repeated ref to low hands throughout the post), however if that is your only comment, at least it supports my own opinions.  Thanks.


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## TigerTail (10 September 2012)

JFTD - You can see your bareback history in that you actually  have the ability to ride with a decent leg length and arent hampered by a short psoas muscle which is what so many people struggle with. From the pics, and its diff without vid to say for sure, it looks like you dont have independent hands. So if you were one of my pupils you'd be doing a lot with no reins and then one rein etc until you can separate your arms from the rest of you. You've obviously spotted the curling hand on one of the pics, then we go to them being together on his withers and then tractor hands. Id suggest you've had an instructor getting you to carry your hands all over the place to try and achieve an outline artificially  You also need to remember to turn your little toes down so your feet stay forwards not in ballet first position  hope thts somewhat helpful.


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## Cortez (10 September 2012)

elsazzo said:



			JFTD I agree with your comments 

Its all very well saying this is how I 'aspire' to ride pearlsasinger! Im sure most of us aspire to ride like somebody but getting that brain-body connection isnt alway easy. If it was we would all be riding like Charlotte Dujardin (or whoever it is you admire)....

anyway, anyone willing to give me some CC on the 3 pics I posted? 

Click to expand...

Well, I'll give you my 2 ha pennyworth. Lovely highland (I am presuming?), not being too bothered by your not-exactly "horrendous" hands - you are suffering from "magnetic pommel" syndrome, where the hand, usually the inside one, is irresistibly attracted by and becomes stuck to the front of the saddle, or the thigh in extreme cases. This is bad, of course, as the contact is then fixed and cannot release or give. It is also bad because you then tip forwards and your back becomes tense and fixed also. Very common fault, cured by sitting on your ar*e (this is a technical term used by RI's the world over), carrying your hands & loosening all the joints from your wrists to your shoulders. Your horse doesn't seem to mind too much, 'though


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

JFTD said:



			Not especially since those are the two things I am painfully aware of (noting my repeated ref to low hands throughout the post), however if that is your only comment, at least it supports my own opinions.  Thanks.
		
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JFTD- No expert here but my friendly advice would be to give your arms'wrists a good shake out as they look very tense (as you are aware)elbows at sides & forget whats going on with the front end of your horse and try and sit a bit lighter in your seat.....as my instructor told me 'sit as if your sitting in a dirty nappy and you dont really want to sit on it' LOL......yukky but it helps!!


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

Cortez- I think you are looking at JTFDs pics and not mine (it was my post u quoted)


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## Pearlsasinger (10 September 2012)

JFTD - You did indeed comment on your low hands.  However I didn't notice any reference to your chin/head.


As I said previously any-one can take on board my comments or ignore them as they please.

I quite agree that the over-sized photos are unbelievably annoying and make the thread almost impossible to read.


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## Kallibear (10 September 2012)

Intersting thread that's kept me occupied for at least half an hour whilst at work 

Some of peoples ideas of correct outline are interesting and very indicative of the poorly educted 'if it's nose it tucked in, it's in an outline' commonly seen.

This is an interesting picture and I'd be interested to see what others think of it:

This isn't me riding but his novice,slightly nervous sharer. It's typical of his hind-end activily (when not being allowed to slope along) but also his head carriage. I'd prefer went like this, which his head up, than bum trailing behind him but his head pretty! Now the backend is working we can work on his headcarraige a bit more.






And his other sharer: These are taken a couple of strides apart: the second one's face is because he's just had his bum smacked for being lazy with his backend! 











And a picture of a huge-moving horse doing naff all with his backend. Head is tuck in a 'pretty' shape but bum is trailing somewhere in space and hind legs aren't doing much at all.






And just 5mins later, after getting the hang of him: she's never ridden him before and he's NOT easy to ride well. It's still a long way from perfect but much better.






Having looked through my albums I can't belive I have only 3 shots of me riding Piper in movement other than jumping! One is at a gallop and the other two are poor quality!


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## PaddyMonty (10 September 2012)

JFTD said:



			Not especially since those are the two things I am painfully aware of (noting my repeated ref to low hands throughout the post), however if that is your only comment, at least it supports my own opinions.  Thanks.
		
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At least you got some comments. my pic has been completely ignored 
Two important points from me.....
1) Watch your outside leg doesn't shoot forward when your inside leg moves back
2) if you post a pic wearing a shirt with writing on it, please make sure it is in focus so we can read what it says


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

PaddyMonty said:



			At least you got some comments. my pic has been completely ignored 
Two important points from me.....
1) Watch your outside leg doesn't shoot forward when your inside leg moves back
2) if you post a pic wearing a shirt with writing on it, plase make sue it is in focus so we can read what it says 

Click to expand...

PaddyMonty I will have a look at your pic & try & give a CC as mine too has been ignored....I'll go find yours


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## Cortez (10 September 2012)

elsazzo said:



			Cortez- I think you are looking at JTFDs pics and not mine (it was my post u quoted) 

Click to expand...

Ooops! Sorry, yes it was JFTD.


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## JFTDWS (10 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			JFTD - You can see your bareback history in that you actually  have the ability to ride with a decent leg length and arent hampered by a short psoas muscle which is what so many people struggle with. From the pics, and its diff without vid to say for sure, it looks like you dont have independent hands.* So if you were one of my pupils you'd be doing a lot with no reins and then one rein etc until you can separate your arms from the rest of you.* You've obviously spotted the curling hand on one of the pics, then we go to them being together on his withers and then tractor hands.* Id suggest you've had an instructor getting you to carry your hands all over the place to try and achieve an outline artificially*  You also need to remember to turn your little toes down so your feet stay forwards not in ballet first position  hope thts somewhat helpful.
		
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Thanks TT.  Very interesting and helpful.

You're completely right in those faults, I think.  However I think your reasoning is slightly flawed   I've never had any instructor, I certainly wouldn't entertain one who encouraged me to hold / fiddle the pony into an outline - though it's probable that I've picked up the same habits by default from lacking an instructor, rather than having a rubbish one!  

I spent most of my youth riding bareback, without reins/bridle or hacking on the buckle, carrying cups of water without spilling it (popular game as a teen  ) etc so I think my hands are reasonably independent - which is 100 times worse as it means that I am chosing to put my hands in all these stupid positions!  I think the reason I drop them down in the last pics is to maintain a contact because I let the reins slide through my hands and become too long - does that sound plausible?  The awful errant left hand in the second pic was me trying to pull his neck and shoulders away from the edge, rather than setting him up to bring his shoulders in from my legs / seat 

Well spotted on the toe front - I hadn't noticed that!


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

Cortez said:



			Ooops! Sorry, yes it was JFTD.
		
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No worries  although I think u should be the fist to CC mine seeing as they havent been commented on yet 

(not sure if thats a good thing, haha!)


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## JFTDWS (10 September 2012)

PaddyMonty said:



			At least you got some comments. my pic has been completely ignored 
Two important points from me.....
1) Watch your outside leg doesn't shoot forward when your inside leg moves back
2) if you post a pic wearing a shirt with writing on it, please make sure it is in focus so we can read what it says 

Click to expand...

Sorry I don't feel qualified to comment on yours 

Yes, very annoying swingy outside leg overcompensating.  I'm aware I do it, but hadn't spotted it in that pic, thanks!  Horrible habit!

The shirt is a BHS "Think before you breed" one from their campaign against indiscriminate breeding   I'm wearing it now too


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

PaddyMonty, you both look great. Your position is nice & your seat light  I dont think its the most flattering pic of your horse as its taken at an awkward 'moment' if you know what I mean. He'she looks a bit tense & not particularly forward but its just a moment in time. Looked like you were riding nicely


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## Cortez (10 September 2012)

elsazzo said:



			perhaps this is a better example of our trot......






Click to expand...

Elsazzo, since you're being ignored I'll have a go and "do" your second pic. It's a bit blurry, but I THINK you are a bit "piano hands" in this one, always better to have thumbs on top and knuckles facing each other. Horse is going on well with good engagement, not all curled up in front and not above or too "down" on the contact (quite a lot of the pics on this thread are the former....). You have a nice relaxed back and draping leg.


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## TigerTail (10 September 2012)

JFTD said:



			Thanks TT.  Very interesting and helpful.

You're completely right in those faults, I think.  However I think your reasoning is slightly flawed   I've never had any instructor, I certainly wouldn't entertain one who encouraged me to hold / fiddle the pony into an outline - though it's probable that I've picked up the same habits by default from lacking an instructor, rather than having a rubbish one!  

I spent most of my youth riding bareback, without reins/bridle or hacking on the buckle, carrying cups of water without spilling it (popular game as a teen  ) etc so I think my hands are reasonably independent - which is 100 times worse as it means that I am chosing to put my hands in all these stupid positions!  I think the reason I drop them down in the last pics is to maintain a contact because I let the reins slide through my hands and become too long - does that sound plausible?  The awful errant left hand in the second pic was me trying to pull his neck and shoulders away from the edge, rather than setting him up to bring his shoulders in from my legs / seat 

Well spotted on the toe front - I hadn't noticed that!
		
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Ah they just seem so typical of the hand styles often taught now to achieve an outline I generalised  Do you have someone who can lunge you? Just practice your transitions and gaits with no reins then with one and see if it throws anything up, its amazing the bad habits we all get into! Um possible on the reins sliding through fingers, but Id expect you (from your others posts and pics u seem capable!) to know this is happening and block it with your fingers. When you say you were trying to pull his neck and shoulders away from the edge do you mean to stop him falling in on the circle? You could raise your inside hand slightly (thumbs on top) to support the inside shoulder, making sure ur hands return to neutral after. May have misunderstood that though!


PADDYMONTY I COMMENTED ON YOUR PIC ON PG 23!!! Dont feel left out chuck


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## JFTDWS (10 September 2012)

Cortez said:



			Well, I'll give you my 2 ha pennyworth. Lovely highland (I am presuming?), not being too bothered by your not-exactly "horrendous" hands - you are suffering from "magnetic pommel" syndrome, where the hand, usually the inside one, is irresistibly attracted by and becomes stuck to the front of the saddle, or the thigh in extreme cases. This is bad, of course, as the contact is then fixed and cannot release or give. It is also bad because you then tip forwards and your back becomes tense and fixed also. Very common fault, cured by sitting on your ar*e (this is a technical term used by RI's the world over), carrying your hands & loosening all the joints from your wrists to your shoulders. Your horse doesn't seem to mind too much, 'though 

Click to expand...

Thank you.  He is indeed a highland, and very lovely (though I admit I am very biased there!).  See that is great cc - a good point, well made, but humorously put, and as a result, well taken    I shall endeavour to de-magnetise my pommel, sit on my arse and loosen the entire length of my arms henceforth! 



elsazzo said:



			JFTD- No expert here but my friendly advice would be to give your arms'wrists a good shake out as they look very tense (as you are aware)elbows at sides & forget whats going on with the front end of your horse and try and sit a bit lighter in your seat.....as my instructor told me 'sit as if your sitting in a dirty nappy and you dont really want to sit on it' LOL......yukky but it helps!! 

Click to expand...

Is this conflicting advise with cortez who thinks I should sit on my arse more?!  I tend to vary between sitting down, sitting light, sitting forward and sitting slightly back during a session, since it majorly affects the pony's way of going (by which I mean I vary it depending on what I'm asking for - stretchy work I sit light, collection I sit deep, medium work sitting back slightly - I don't know if this is truly correct, but it seems to go down well with my pony!).

Yep hands and arms do get very tense, especially when he's in the field (he'd much rather sod off than ponce around) and I fail to remember to soften.  Very good point indeed.  Thanks


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

Cortez said:



			Elsazzo, since you're being ignored I'll have a go and "do" your second pic. It's a bit blurry, but I THINK you are a bit "piano hands" in this one, always better to have thumbs on top and knuckles facing each other. Horse is going on well with good engagement, not all curled up in front and not above or too "down" on the contact (quite a lot of the pics on this thread are the former....). You have a nice relaxed back and draping leg.
		
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Waaayheeey!! I got a comment! Thanks Cortez 

Thanks for the CC- although If you dont mind me saying I think its just the fuzziness thats giving the impression of piano hands as its something Im really not guilty of as I actually find it really hard to ride without thumbs on top for some reason!! I have much better quality pics on page 22 (i think) which would probably be easier to CC!


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## JFTDWS (10 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			Ah they just seem so typical of the hand styles often taught now to achieve an outline I generalised  Do you have someone who can lunge you? Just practice your transitions and gaits with no reins then with one and see if it throws anything up, its amazing the bad habits we all get into! Um possible on the reins sliding through fingers, but Id expect you (from your others posts and pics u seem capable!) to know this is happening and block it with your fingers. When you say you were trying to pull his neck and shoulders away from the edge do you mean to stop him falling in on the circle? You could raise your inside hand slightly (thumbs on top) to support the inside shoulder, making sure ur hands return to neutral after. May have misunderstood that though!
		
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Not sure I'd trust the pony on the lunge - riderless he thinks it's a good excuse for serious misbehaviour   But I will happily ride without reins in the school so can give it a go...

Oh no you seriously misjudge me - I'm hopelessly thick and my fingers don't obey my brain's orders   I regularly get round sj courses without any grip on the reins at all, holding the buckle and desperately trying to shorten up between each fence!  

I think my intention was to hold him shoulder fore (I think it was an attempt at baby canter SI, though I might be mistaken).  He's not actually on a circle there 

Thanks for your comments


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (10 September 2012)

Here's me and my grey...

(no hat..yes yes i know..)

















 would you class this as a 'good' outline?






and because it made me giggle


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

JFTD - sorry didnt mean to confuzzle you! 

I was refering to the 1st pic where u seem to be sitting heavily on your seat (driving seat) it is possible to sit on your bum and do so lightly at the same time....just do the old nappy trick as I suggested before & looking forwards with helps this too


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## Littlelegs (10 September 2012)

Actually jftd, I do think its relevant to this thread. Because if the way the majority of riders were taught as beginners & at very novice level changed, I suspect we wouldn't encounter so many problems with horses not working correctly. Of course no horse & rider will ever be perfect, everyone has their weaknesses. But even taking adorable alices pic, the issues with the horse stem from previous rider, & there's plenty of posts saying similar, so I do believe there's plenty of proof, for want of a better word, that if we focused more on the rider than the horse, many of the problems wouldn't occur in the first place, & those that did would in the main be minor. 
  Thanks pearlsasinger, I saw where you were coming from & didn't read it as meaning to insult anyone.


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## Cortez (10 September 2012)

elsazzo said:



			Great thread  TrOuble- in my opinion yours in the best example of a nice 'outline' so far 

heres a couple of my pics. I know she can (& does!) go much better but this was my first ever show & I was a bit nervous/preoccupied!! 









I know shes a bit flat on this one but I think it demonstrates that she is moving 'forwards'....






Click to expand...

Right, these are better. You are right, no piano hands here, but I think your wrists are a bit "awkward" as in stiff, and in the second pic you have dropped your shoulders (people often do this when they are trying to be soft and give, but you should give with the elbows first, for this very reason - "shoulders back; boobs up!"). Your lower leg is consistently stable and in the right place, thus your back is soft and able to absorb movement. I like your horse's way of going - he has an active step under and isn't curling behind the contact. What's he like on a snaffle?


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## PaddyMonty (10 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			PADDYMONTY I COMMENTED ON YOUR PIC ON PG 23!!! Dont feel left out chuck 

Click to expand...

Just nipped back and found it. Thanks.
Agree on all points (except knee gripping), especially impulsion. 
This is his favourite part of a dressage test.






And his preferred activity






Applying himself is not high on his priority list (except when hunting) 

PS this is him 3 months prior to that event (his first).






PPS he wasn't really as fat as he looked in the pic. This is him at the trot up on the same day.


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## JFTDWS (10 September 2012)

TBG, I won't offer cc on the ridden pics as there are better qualified people than me.  However, regarding the lunging photo, in my opinion, I would not class that as a particularly pleasing outline, no.  Pony's hindlegs are trailing, not tracking up and lacking forwardness and power, the neck looks tense and rather forced.  The poll is not the highest point, giving the "broken" look 6" behind the ears.

Lovely horse though


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## showpony (10 September 2012)

Lovely horse! 

Best picture of horse working in an outline is the one of you on the beach

Horse looks very stiff and tense in the neck in the pic where he is being lunged.



TuscanBunnyGirl said:



			Here's me and my grey...

(no hat..yes yes i know..)

















 would you class this as a 'good' outline?






and because it made me giggle 





Click to expand...


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## Cortez (10 September 2012)

Would I class the 3rd pic as a "good" outline? I would not. Look at the horse's back / loin area - hollow, no? Whole picture says " I am pulling up, against this rein thingy" and not "I am happily working hand-in-hand (well, mouth-on-rein really) and comfortably giving to the rein". Did he get better after this moment?


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## JFTDWS (10 September 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Actually jftd, I do think its relevant to this thread. Because if the way the majority of riders were taught as beginners & at very novice level changed, I suspect we wouldn't encounter so many problems with horses not working correctly. Of course no horse & rider will ever be perfect, everyone has their weaknesses. But even taking adorable alices pic, the issues with the horse stem from previous rider, & there's plenty of posts saying similar, so I do believe there's plenty of proof, for want of a better word, that if we focused more on the rider than the horse, many of the problems wouldn't occur in the first place, & those that did would in the main be minor.
		
Click to expand...

But LL, nobody on this thread is a novice considering what method of teaching we should pursue?!  We're all making do with what we've got and trying to build on that.

Absolutely, for the next generation of riders, for every novice starting out now, I completely agree that the current methods of teaching are not ideal, not by a long chalk.  If we could revolutionise teaching methods, these threads wouldn't exist in 10 years time, maybe.  But how does that remotely affect anyone on this thread?!


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

Cortez said:



			Right, these are better. You are right, no piano hands here, but I think your wrists are a bit "awkward" as in stiff, and in the second pic you have dropped your shoulders (people often do this when they are trying to be soft and give, but you should give with the elbows first, for this very reason - "shoulders back; boobs up!"). Your lower leg is consistently stable and in the right place, thus your back is soft and able to absorb movement. I like your horse's way of going - he has an active step under and isn't curling behind the contact. What's he like on a snaffle?
		
Click to expand...

Thanks muchly 

glad we cleared that up about the hands haha 

Yes, Im not sure what happened in the 2nd pic! my foot has also slipped through my stirrup too far :S My horse has a tendancy to power on into extended trot and I think I was trying to get her to keep a lid on it haha!.... Shes a very strong mare in both body & mind & we have a variety of bits (similar ones but slightly different to keep her listening) & i tend to swap them around regulalry on RI sdvice. She is currently schooled/jumped/hacked in a french link loose ring & goes lovely in it  She only wears a pelham for showing. This was my first ever show and I had only been learning to use the 2 reins that week so that may explain why my wrists are a bit stiff looking.


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## Caol Ila (10 September 2012)

This has been a really fun thread to read.

I acquired some bad habits when I first started riding that I've never been able to get rid of, mainly a dodgy lower leg.  I took dressage lessons regularly for about a decade, but it doesn't seem to have fixed it.

So I've always that my equitation is atrocious, which is a bit of a shame as I think my horse has far more potential than she ever gets to show off given she's carting about an eejit on her back.  As I'd like to know what others think, here are a couple pics.  Critique away, but be nice!  







Bareback:


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (10 September 2012)

Cortez said:



			Would I class the 3rd pic as a "good" outline? I would not. Look at the horse's back / loin area - hollow, no? Whole picture says " I am pulling up, against this rein thingy" and not "I am happily working hand-in-hand (well, mouth-on-rein really) and comfortably giving to the rein". Did he get better after this moment?
		
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Yes she did  
I was just wondering as some people thought it was a nice picture. I agree. I don't think she looks comfortable. but...her poll is her 'highest' point.. she's coming up behind however, she wasn't pulling against it. I put it on to see if it would encourage her to come lower if anyone was wondering  and it did after she became used to it 
Thanks for your input


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## Caol Ila (10 September 2012)

Re: the grey horse in the pics above mine:

In the lunging pic, he looks completely hollow through the back even though he's putting his nose down.  In the beach pic, he looks more relaxed, but very on the forehand and not through his back.  He looks best in the top pic.  In the second one, he also looks slightly on his forehand.


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (10 September 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			Re: the grey horse in the pics above mine:

In the lunging pic, he looks completely hollow through the back even though he's putting his nose down.  In the beach pic, he looks more relaxed, but very on the forehand and not through his back.  He looks best in the top pic.  In the second one, he also looks slightly on his forehand.
		
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thanks for your reply!
I agree about the lunging pic  

she is built very on the forehand and trying to get her 'up' is a nightmare :/
any suggestions would be fab


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (10 September 2012)

JFTD said:



			TBG, I won't offer cc on the ridden pics as there are better qualified people than me.  However, regarding the lunging photo, in my opinion, I would not class that as a particularly pleasing outline, no.  Pony's hindlegs are trailing, not tracking up and lacking forwardness and power, the neck looks tense and rather forced.  The poll is not the highest point, giving the "broken" look 6" behind the ears.

Lovely horse though 

Click to expand...

Sorry JFTD, didn't see your comment 
thanks for your input  I thought that the poll was the highest point..but you're right it's not  
now you've mentioned it..she breaks at this point in all the pics...
I agree she looks tense and overall is not pleasing on the eye


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## JFTDWS (10 September 2012)

TuscanBunnyGirl said:



			I agree she looks tense and overall is not pleasing on the eye 

Click to expand...

In this pic, her outline is not pleasing to the eye, no, but *she *is generally very pleasing to the eye regardless


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## Caol Ila (10 September 2012)

TuscanBunnyGirl,

Sorry, she!  People call my horse "he" all the time as well, lol!  

Make sure the horse is working forward, off the leg, and pushing with her hind end.  Lots of transitions.  And hills, if you have them.  I noticed in all your pics, you seem to be tipping forward slightly with your upper body.  Work on sitting up straighter while staying relaxed through your back, as a rider falling forward or being really stiff in their back will tip the horse onto its forehand.  I know I need to work on this too, but perhaps bring your hands a little bit more forward.  So tempting to keep them back by the pommel of the saddle, but they should be slightly in front of it.  The good news is that your elbows look soft and bent.  A lot of leaning horses seem to develop the habit from stiff-elbowed, bracy riders, but that does not seem to be you.


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## Armas (10 September 2012)

PaddyMonty said:



			Just nipped back and found it. Thanks.
Agree on all points (except knee gripping), especially impulsion. 
This is his favourite part of a dressage test.






And his preferred activity






Applying himself is not high on his priority list (except when hunting) 

PS this is him 3 months prior to that event (his first).






PPS he wasn't really as fat as he looked in the pic. This is him at the trot up on the same day.





Click to expand...

Nice horse  I am surprised you have not been harangued by the H&H Femme fatale's lol


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## JFTDWS (10 September 2012)

Armas said:



			Nice horse  I am surprised you have not been harangued by the H&H Femme fatale's lol
		
Click to expand...

Oh he has


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (10 September 2012)

JFTD said:



			In this pic, her outline is not pleasing to the eye, no, but *she *is generally very pleasing to the eye regardless 

Click to expand...

haha i shall deliver her to you then 




Caol Ila said:



			TuscanBunnyGirl,

Sorry, she!  People call my horse "he" all the time as well, lol!  

Make sure the horse is working forward, off the leg, and pushing with her hind end.  Lots of transitions.  And hills, if you have them.  I noticed in all your pics, you seem to be tipping forward slightly with your upper body.  Work on sitting up straighter while staying relaxed through your back, as a rider falling forward or being really stiff in their back will tip the horse onto its forehand.  I know I need to work on this too, but perhaps bring your hands a little bit more forward.  So tempting to keep them back by the pommel of the saddle, but they should be slightly in front of it.  The good news is that your elbows look soft and bent.  A lot of leaning horses seem to develop the habit from stiff-elbowed, bracy riders, but that does not seem to be you.  

Click to expand...

no worries! She is very much a she 
I'll keep this as brief as pos.. a lil background - I got her at 4yrs, she was owned by a man who used her for galloping around wherever he wanted, had her in foal at 2..she wasn't taught to go off the leg, only a whip on the shoulder, she has always seemed 'fussy' in the mouth, teeth checked...although where i live there isn't such thing as a 'saddle fitter' etc so never had anyone to check her saddle..only my amateur knowledge.  so it's always in the back of my mind that something may be hurting her which is why she's resisting etc. we've moving over to the uk end of the month so will have allll checks done  

Thank you so much for your help  really appreciated
I have an awful position at the moment, i have been without an instructor for 2 years  
Will definitely take your advice and work on me which will hopefully help her a lot more


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## PaddyMonty (10 September 2012)

JFTD said:



			Oh he has 

Click to expand...

Thankfully they have now moved on to fresher meat.


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## Caol Ila (10 September 2012)

Working back a few pages (I am catching up on bits of this thread):

JFTD, Armas, and Lucyad:  I think all of you guys should bend your elbows and lift your hands an inch or three higher.    Think about creating a straight line from the horse's mouth to your elbow.  If the line from mouth to elbow is broken, say by your elbow being straight and your hand being down, it's a lot harder, if not impossible, to create a soft connection to their mouth.  Also, if your elbow is straight, it is physically impossible to follow the movement of your horse's head and this will create a brace in both you and the horse.  The elbow should be soft and elastic.  When I'm having a good day where I don't suck, I think of my elbows being connected to my core and my seat and that is what influences the movement of the horse, while the hands just hang out there and hold the reins.  To give a half-half say, I won't think of pulling with the hands, but rather increasing the connection between elbows, core, and seat, and very slightly, for like a stride, stopping the movement in my elbows.


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## JFTDWS (10 September 2012)

PaddyMonty said:



			Thankfully they have now moved on to fresher meat. 

Click to expand...

Or some might say, they are now lulling you into a false sense of security before the next assault...


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## rhino (10 September 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Some of the photos have appalled me - why any-one would put them up for others to see, I cannot imagine.  Some of the comments are even worse and some of the comments by people who have also put up photos, explain why their horses are not going 'correctly'.  Many people do not seem to understand the direct correlation between rider position and horse's position/way of going.  Yes some horses' conformation inhibits their movement but not half as much as some riders' positions!
		
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Thankfully this was pointed out by others, but really? 'Appalled'  For someone that has 'no fluffy bunnies' in their signature, that's a pretty fluffy bunny thing to say.

Yes, how appalling that people are willing to post photos, generally knowing that they are not great, to _attempt to improve their riding and their horse's way of going_... 

- general comment -

Not all of us have horsey families. Not all of us rode as children, and had lesson after lesson from the best, or access to well schooled horses and ponies. Some of us are trying bloody hard to get better given what we _do_ have...

Why the concentration on the horse? Well, I think I was probably mostly responsible for that, _as I stated I find the link between conformation and movement really interesting_ as a geeky scientist. I'm NOT an instructor, never have I pretended to be one. I've no ideas about the others, although would love to have a lesson from Wagtail, instructor or not. Not only do I agree with virtually all her assessments, I think she would be someone who would inspire confidence as well as improve horse and rider, much preferable to me than the 'old school' type who do nothing but criticise, often without being able to demonstrate their apparent superiority.

What I have tried to do is be constructive, as I think a great many people learn from threads such as this - I know I do.

I'm not the OP, but please could we keep this thread positive, as the vast majority has been  If giving suggestions can you also explain _why_ the suggestion should work; nothing more annoying than being told to do something - lift hands/chin/leg forward/back without the reason being explained.


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## rhino (10 September 2012)

PaddyMonty said:



			Thankfully they have now moved on to fresher meat. 

Click to expand...




JFTD said:



			Or some might say, they are now lulling you into a false sense of security before the next assault...
		
Click to expand...


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

PaddyMonty said:



			Rare pic of me doing stressage stuff
Do your worst. 





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I'm afraid I can't falt that picture at all, PM. I would be very happy with myself if I were you. Horse is making a very pleasing round shape with plenty of impulsion (lovely hind leg) and going into his back into a soft, light contact. Lovely! Ears ar back, but I think it is more that the horse is paying attention to you than unhappiness.


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			Pearlsaginger -  thankyou  Some of the comments have made me want to bang my head on a wall as to where on earth people have picked up these ideas and think theyre correct  I dont agree with everything Wagtail has said though, for eg in Aramas pic its not long and low so much as leaning on the bit in an attempt to relieve the pressure on the bars of its mouth from the tractor hands of the rider but hey ho 

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How dare you!  No I actually agree with you. I was trying to be nice because he was saying the outline was long and low. I meant that was what he was aiming for. The horse was not actually in a long low outline.


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## PaddyMonty (10 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I'm afraid I can't falt that picture at all, PM. I would be very happy with myself if I were you. Horse is making a very pleasing round shape with plenty of impulsion (lovely hind leg) and going into his back into a soft, light contact. Lovely! Ears ar back, but I think it is more that the horse is paying attention to you than unhappiness.
		
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Thanks but I fear you are being too kind.
My main issue with the pic is I have allowed myself to collapse to the left slightly and drop my inside hand low. My weight has moved to the outside (due to collapse at hip) thereby restricting the horses impulsion whilst it has to counteract my poor balance. The lowered left hand will also be resticting the movement of the inside shoulder so whilst the hind is coming through the front cant match it.


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

JFTD said:



			I posted these a while back, I wonder if anyone other that rhino would care to comment.
		
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Ok, JFTD. There is not a lot wrong with the pair of you. You do, However appear to sit quite heavy in that you fix your hands somewhat and hold tension in your neck rather than stretching upwards and raising your chin instead of looking down. Sitting taller and prouder, and carrying your hands more will lighten your seat. Your pony appears to have plenty of impulsion and is not overbent or leaning which is good.


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## Pearlsasinger (10 September 2012)

rhino said:



			Thankfully this was pointed out by others, but really? 'Appalled'  For someone that has 'no fluffy bunnies' in their signature, that's a pretty fluffy bunny thing to say.

Yes, how appalling that people are willing to post photos, generally knowing that they are not great, to _attempt to improve their riding and their horse's way of going_... 

- general comment -

Not all of us have horsey families. Not all of us rode as children, and had lesson after lesson from the best, or access to well schooled horses and ponies. Some of us are trying bloody hard to get better given what we _do_ have...

Why the concentration on the horse? Well, I think I was probably mostly responsible for that, _as I stated I find the link between conformation and movement really interesting_ as a geeky scientist. I'm NOT an instructor, never have I pretended to be one. I've no ideas about the others, although would love to have a lesson from Wagtail, instructor or not. Not only do I agree with virtually all her assessments, I think she would be someone who would inspire confidence as well as improve horse and rider, much preferable to me than the 'old school' type who do nothing but criticise, often without being able to demonstrate their apparent superiority.

What I have tried to do is be constructive, as I think a great many people learn from threads such as this - I know I do.

I'm not the OP, but please could we keep this thread positive, as the vast majority has been  If giving suggestions can you also explain _why_ the suggestion should work; nothing more annoying than being told to do something - lift hands/chin/leg forward/back without the reason being explained.
		
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Sorry Rhino, I simply don't understand your first comment.  I have been appalled at the positions of some riders in their photos and amazed that they feel that they should post such photos of themselves, because although they were inviting criticism, they really should have been able to see for themselves their major faults.  Littlelegs, actually explained my thinking better than I could.
This comment will go down in history on my calendar, as I don't think I've ever been called 'fluffy' before, in any aspect of my life.

As for the last part of your post.  I don't understand that either.  I commented on JFTD's hands and chin position and explained that if she corrected them, her horse would be able to lift his back and become rounder.  The main reason that I have not commented on the majority of the pics is that I would find it difficult to be positive about many of them.  You may have noticed that before JFTD, who expressly asked for comments, immediately after commenting on my post, I had only commented on 2 photos, both extremely positive comments about the riders.
I did express my surprise that the VAST majority of comments were about the horses, rather than the riders, which led me to believe that many commentators did not understand the link between rider position and horse's way of going.
There are many beautiful horses and ponies on this thread, a few well-ridden.


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## redmone (10 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Your daughter has a lovely position. Looking at the pony I suspect that flexing at the poll is not the most easy thing for her as she is quite thick through the throat area. I can see just by looking at her that she will not be the easiest pony to get into a nice working outline. You may think it strange when I say that IMO your daughter is riding with her reins too short, as actually the pony is poking her nose and working in a very strung out outline, and so the natural thing to do is shorten the reins. However, this often just compounds the issue. Look at the lovely bottom photograph. Your daughters reins are actually a good three inches longer and she is nicely taking up the contact by bringing her elbows back. Imagine how much nicer for the horse this feeling is, than a straight, blocking arm? In that photograph, the pony is in a pelham which has poll action and would have helped your daughter to get her to flex. Obviously, it would be nice to get her to do this in a snaffle, but using the pelham occasionally, will allow your daughter to feel what it is like and this will help her achieve the same thing in a snaffle.
		
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Thanks for taking the time to have a look.  I can see what you mean about the reins when comparing the photos - it's not the way round you would think is it!  I'm lucky she's got such good instructors - I wouldn't know where to start honestly!!!

She struggles to get anything like the bottom photo in the snaffle, but we're good at this patience lark and we'll get there!!  She only now uses the pelham for jumping (with roundings and single reins) so I was surprised when a judge said she should have had it on, but that's probably a whole separate thread! 

It's hard with children isn't it!  No disrespect meant to daughter, but sort of seems like blind leading the blind!  Daughter struggles to understand what to do (and when she gets one thing right another thing goes wrong!) and pony probably hasn't done much of this before so can't really help her out!

Thanks for your lovely comment about her position


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## nikicb (10 September 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			The main reason that I have not commented on the majority of the pics is that I would find it difficult to be positive about many of them.
		
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I don't think you need to tell everyone they are wonderful, but there are ways and means of giving development points in a positive manner.  I would be interested in what you think of my photos, in the context of what I have written above them as well as my response below to Wagtail.

Thank you.


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## redmone (10 September 2012)

JFTD said:



			littlelegs, I do agree with what you say, but I fail to see how it is relevant to the context of this thread, given that those of us asking for cc clearly agree that position influences way of going, and we are seeking to improve it.  It's all very well to say it should be taught correctly in the first instance, but we are not all so fortunate as to begin our riding education with position-obsessed purists.  Though fwiw, I also spent my teenage years bareback 

Pearlsasinger, I also video regularly and deconstruct my position and my horse's way of going.  That doesn't mean a fresh pair of eyes, or a more experienced pair won't be able to highlight something I have missed.  I don't think your attitude is exactly helpful, slating people who have been open with their own failings on the forum.


eta, whoever's photos have messed up the thread, can you please fix them, it's infuriating not being able to read comments.
		
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Bet it was my photos that messed the thread up!......

Sorry if it was!


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## nikicb (10 September 2012)

redmone said:



			Bet it was my photos that messed the thread up!......

Sorry if it was!
		
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I don't think it was.


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## redmone (10 September 2012)

rhino said:



  

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Hi Rhino!

Would you mind popping back to page 21 (on my PC) and giving your thoughts on D+D?  You always seem to have their number!

Thankies if you do


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## rhino (10 September 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Sorry Rhino, I simply don't understand your first comment.  

The main reason that I have not commented on the majority of the pics is that I would find it difficult to be positive about many of them.
		
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My posts don't always make much sense to anyone but me (and not always even then!)

Fair enough. Coming in as a teacher, I suppose it would be the same as me 'being appalled' at how little children know when they come to me... Not a helpful way of looking at it IMO. I'm guessing quite a lot of the posters know their faults, but having a 2nd and 3rd hand opinion never hurts  I haven't seen _anything_ appalling on here, what I have seen is a variety of different people and horses in various stages of schooling and awareness. Some will have had the benefit of good instruction, some bad instruction, and some, like me and JFTD, very little instruction indeed 

2nd part not directly aimed at you - I even added the 'general comment' in an edit as I didn't want you to think the entire post was aimed at you. It wasn't, but I feel this thread is becoming quite a valuable learning tool, even if the comment is not made directly to you! Think quite a few of us have some homework to do now  

I do find it sad that you couldn't find any way of being positive about the majority of photos though


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## redmone (10 September 2012)

nikicb said:



			I don't think it was. 

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Phew!!! ***mops brow***!

They just came out a bit, well, BIG!!!!!!!

Am loving this thread! I'm guessing what opinion is going to be on each photo, not doing brilliant to be honest, but having fun on my lunchtime!


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## Lucyad (10 September 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			Working back a few pages (I am catching up on bits of this thread):

JFTD, Armas, and Lucyad:  I think all of you guys should bend your elbows and lift your hands an inch or three higher.    Think about creating a straight line from the horse's mouth to your elbow.  If the line from mouth to elbow is broken, say by your elbow being straight and your hand being down, it's a lot harder, if not impossible, to create a soft connection to their mouth.  Also, if your elbow is straight, it is physically impossible to follow the movement of your horse's head and this will create a brace in both you and the horse.  The elbow should be soft and elastic.  When I'm having a good day where I don't suck, I think of my elbows being connected to my core and my seat and that is what influences the movement of the horse, while the hands just hang out there and hold the reins.  To give a half-half say, I won't think of pulling with the hands, but rather increasing the connection between elbows, core, and seat, and very slightly, for like a stride, stopping the movement in my elbows.
		
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Good description, like the idea of thinking of the connection not being to do with hands, but core.  I often get told to 'carry' my hands more in lessons, but it is difficult as unless I concentrate I tend to get lazy and drop them onto the horse's neck, turning them round to be 'pram' hands, rather than thumbs on top.


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## xRobyn (10 September 2012)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			Robyn, your horse is a little on the forehand, as you say, but not awful and heading in the right direction. I'm sure you'll get back to how you were before his injury, if he has made a full recovery. It just takes time.
		
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Thank you 




Wagtail said:



			Really loely boy you have! He is nice and foreward and tracking up well. Your position is pretty good and not hindering him in any way. Keep up the good work. I suspects using plenty of transitions and half halts will lighten him up in front, but generally you make a very pleasing picture for novice level.
		
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This comment had me grinning from ear to ear  Neither of us have ever had any lessons together which I'd like to change over Christmas, but I'm glad to hear you like him


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## redmone (10 September 2012)

rhino said:



			I do find it sad that you couldn't find any way of being positive about the majority of photos though 

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I'm chuffed that Daughter and Dolly got a comment 

(sorry!)


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

Cortez said:



			Right, these are better. You are right, no piano hands here, but I think your wrists are a bit "awkward" as in stiff, and in the second pic you have dropped your shoulders (people often do this when they are trying to be soft and give, but you should give with the elbows first, for this very reason - "shoulders back; boobs up!"). Your lower leg is consistently stable and in the right place, thus your back is soft and able to absorb movement. I like your horse's way of going - he has an active step under and isn't curling behind the contact. What's he like on a snaffle?
		
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Agree with these comments. Elsazzo, sorry, I did not realise you were looking for CC as I thought you were posting in direct response to the OP regarding outline. Your horse is going forwards nicely but has become a bit 'strung out'. The contact looks very 'wooden' as though your horse is not submissive to the aids and is coming against your hand. You need to get (her?) back on her hocks by sitting up more and taking the contact back a tad. She may need a half halt here and there to get her attention and lighten her up. You already have the impulsion and the front end is almost, but not quite there.


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## Caol Ila (10 September 2012)

Lucyad said:



			Good description, like the idea of thinking of the connection not being to do with hands, but core.  I often get told to 'carry' my hands more in lessons, but it is difficult as unless I concentrate I tend to get lazy and drop them onto the horse's neck, turning them round to be 'pram' hands, rather than thumbs on top.
		
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Lucy, is he heavy up front?  Looks like he might be.  He looks like a larger version of my horse, who used to lean like a freight train when I first got her and now doesn't.  Leaning on the hand is a pretty natural reaction, especially for these drafts and draft-crosses, when they don't know how to balance themselves with their hind end. The rider will lean back and you'll have horse and rider feeding into each other's stiff and bracey habits.  If this sounds like you, think about riding the horse super forward and keeping your hands light as I explained in my earlier post.  If your hands are dropped onto the neck, that will tip your whole balance forward and make it even harder for the horse to carry himself behind.  There are wee tricks to help break this habit.  For example, I spent a while riding around balancing a whip horizontally across my wrists.  If my hands dropped, I'd lose the whip!  Silly stuff like that can help.


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## rhino (10 September 2012)

redmone said:



			Hi Rhino!

Would you mind popping back to page 21 (on my PC) and giving your thoughts on D+D?  You always seem to have their number!

Thankies if you do 



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There are far more experienced folks than me about now, so I've very little to add 

You and your instructors have, quite rightly, spent the last couple of years (Still don't believe it is *2 years*!) making the lovely Dolly go sweetly, calmly and _safely_. What this can do is lose some of the real power of the paces, and lose the natural rhythm. She really is a 'tank' of a pony conformationally, and the difference is remarkable. 

I think now your daughter is ready to be asking for a little bit more from Dolly, she is certainly more confident and I think more able to cope with Dolly's power. Just simple things like insisting on a reaction when she puts her leg on will ensure Dolly is paying attention to her. Does she do any lateral work (leg yielding, shoulder in, even turn on the forehand) in lessons? That all helps develop flexibility, and will allow your daughter to be able to feel when Dolly is working straight and really swinging through with that powerful trot and canter she has. I think your daughter has developed a nice secure position (which really shows in her jumping) and I think your instructor is doing a good job. Personally I have no issue at all with pelhams or double bridles in good hands  Does miniRM get much chance to ride other horses or ponies at all?


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## Caol Ila (10 September 2012)

Did I get lost?    I'd love a critique (I have a view of what's wrong, but second and third opinions are nice, especially as I haven't had a lesson in six years).  Page 27, I think.


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

PaddyMonty said:



			Thanks but I fear you are being too kind.
My main issue with the pic is I have allowed myself to collapse to the left slightly and drop my inside hand low. My weight has moved to the outside (due to collapse at hip) thereby restricting the horses impulsion whilst it has to counteract my poor balance. The lowered left hand will also be resticting the movement of the inside shoulder so whilst the hind is coming through the front cant match it.
		
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If you can see all that from one photograph taken from a low profile then you should be doing some CC on this thread . I can see your left hand lowered but not your collapsed hip or that your weight is to the outside from this angle. Is it that you are aware of your faults and therefore can spot them because you know you were doing them at the time? Impulsion looks fine to me, though after what you have told me, maybe your horse was a tad unhappy, hence the ears? Still looks a very pleasing picture compared with some people that I teach!


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## Pearlsasinger (10 September 2012)

nikicb said:



			I don't think you need to tell everyone they are wonderful, but there are ways and means of giving development points in a positive manner.  I would be interested in what you think of my photos, in the context of what I have written above them as well as my response below to Wagtail.

Thank you.
		
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Your horse is gorgeous!
And obviously responsive to his rider.

In your photos you are tipping forwards, with your legs back and your chin down, your arms straight and your hands flat.  This is making your horse look  to be 'downhill' or on the fore-hand, which I'm sure you already know, especially in the light of your comment about the new saddle.  I would be interested to see photos of you riding in the new saddle.

To correct this, imagine that you have  string attached .to the top of your head, pulling you upright

You are quite right about giving developmental points in a positive manner, which I may well have been able to do if I'd been there in person, or seen videos of some of the riders but in many cases the 'snapshot in time' was taken at just the wrong moment - possibly more the fault of the photographer than of the rider.  As a (retired) teacher myself, I certainly understand the value of positive comment.


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			This has been a really fun thread to read.

I acquired some bad habits when I first started riding that I've never been able to get rid of, mainly a dodgy lower leg.  I took dressage lessons regularly for about a decade, but it doesn't seem to have fixed it.

So I've always that my equitation is atrocious, which is a bit of a shame as I think my horse has far more potential than she ever gets to show off given she's carting about an eejit on her back.  As I'd like to know what others think, here are a couple pics.  Critique away, but be nice!  







Bareback:


















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Your lower leg does not look that bad except for the third photograph where you are gripping up with your knees and pointing your toes. Your reins are too long and you are using your wrists to take up the slack rather than keeping a straight line through your wrists to the bit and back to your elbows. You also need to lift your chin and stretch your spine upwards to lighten your seat and strengthen your core. Your horse is actually going very well and is obviously quite light despite being allowed to go onto the forehand. I suspect that she would be a very 'easy' horse to get going nicely. She looks very happy.


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## redmone (10 September 2012)

rhino said:



			There are far more experienced folks than me about now, so I've very little to add 

You and your instructors have, quite rightly, spent the last couple of years (Still don't believe it is *2 years*!) making the lovely Dolly go sweetly, calmly and _safely_. What this can do is lose some of the real power of the paces, and lose the natural rhythm. She really is a 'tank' of a pony conformationally, and the difference is remarkable. 

I think now your daughter is ready to be asking for a little bit more from Dolly, she is certainly more confident and I think more able to cope with Dolly's power. Just simple things like insisting on a reaction when she puts her leg on will ensure Dolly is paying attention to her. Does she do any lateral work (leg yielding, shoulder in, even turn on the forehand) in lessons? That all helps develop flexibility, and will allow your daughter to be able to feel when Dolly is working straight and really swinging through with that powerful trot and canter she has. I think your daughter has developed a nice secure position (which really shows in her jumping) and I think your instructor is doing a good job. Personally I have no issue at all with pelhams or double bridles in good hands  Does miniRM get much chance to ride other horses or ponies at all?
		
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Awww thank you! See I knew you'd ask all the right questions!!

Firstly, thank you!

The "getting Dolly moving off a squeeze" is really helping things and the lady who has helped her the most is massive on this.  It's good because it's something I can help with!  We play traffic lights 

Lateral work - she does lots of turning on the forehand/leg yielding, but can't grasp shoulder in yet.  She's trying though!  She likes to do a fried egg - trotting from 20m in to 10m circle then leg yielding out again - or something like that 

We're finding in canter that Dolly has started to swing her back end towards the inside of the school - don't know why!  Daughter is working like mad to keep her straight, and has been working off the track more in case that helps. 

Daughter does ride other ponies, particularly in winter when she exercises the little ponies (which she LOVES more than Christmas!!!!) - it's amazing seeing all their different ways of going and different personalities!!!

Thanks again for your help!  And I know, 2 years!!!


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## Lucyad (10 September 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			Lucy, is he heavy up front?  Looks like he might be.  He looks like a larger version of my horse, who used to lean like a freight train when I first got her and now doesn't.  Leaning on the hand is a pretty natural reaction, especially for these drafts and draft-crosses, when they don't know how to balance themselves with their hind end. The rider will lean back and you'll have horse and rider feeding into each other's stiff and bracey habits.  If this sounds like you, think about riding the horse super forward and keeping your hands light as I explained in my earlier post.  If your hands are dropped onto the neck, that will tip your whole balance forward and make it even harder for the horse to carry himself behind.  There are wee tricks to help break this habit.  For example, I spent a while riding around balancing a whip horizontally across my wrists.  If my hands dropped, I'd lose the whip!  Silly stuff like that can help.
		
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Yes, if I give him anything to brace against, he will lean and go onto the forehand.  As a result he is good for making me concentrate on maintaining softness in my contact, otherwise he gets so heavy I can't maintain it, or tells me to bog off like in the last photo.  I find it particularly difficult to relax and stay soft in dressage tests, and he reacts badly to my tension. 

In a schooling scenario, I can get things back on track by dropping back to walk and asking nicely again, getting him soft, and carrying on.  In a dressage test it is more difficult to pick him back up.

I do have a tendency to tip forward as well, as you point out, and that and my looking down obviously doesn't help, when combined with the dodgy hands - I feel a real difference to my horse's way of going when I manage to maintain a taller, more balanced position - it is just a matter of sustaining it!


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## Nightmare before Christmas (10 September 2012)

After seeing the picture early in the thread get CC I thouht I would post a pic of my horse in an outline and see your views. I noticed someone said the reins need to be lose?! Not sure about that but they are here  

CC if you wish as I am interested in people opinions in regard to horses working correctly


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## Littlelegs (10 September 2012)

I'm perhaps not explaining it very well jftd. What I'm trying to get at is that if we all, including myself, actually focused more on correcting our own faults, even 10, 20, 30 yrs after we first aquired them, before putting too much emphasis on what our mount is doing then some problems would improve by themselves. Because riding faults & bad habits often only come to light when you reach a more experienced level. If it makes more sense I suppose it can be compared to training a horse. You can get away with less than perfect basics & produce one that does a reasonable novice test or bn round, however the gaps in basics only come to light when you run into a problem with more advanced lateral work, bigger courses etc further down the line. And I think the same happens as riders. 
  In my case, probably because I was a long thin child/teen, I got away with slouching my upper body for years. I still looked ok & had no problems with anything I rode. Likewise a habit of dropping my inside hand whilst slipping the inside rein. And both faults only came to light when I got stuck advancing my riding beyond a certain point, & had to go back & sort them before I could progress.


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## Caol Ila (10 September 2012)

As you can see from Wagtail's comments on my post, I'm love looking down as well.  I'll just stare at her ears all day.  Terrible habit.  And letting my reins creep longer as well.  Amazing, all the things you do and don't even realise!


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## Lucyad (10 September 2012)

It's hard when they have such lovely ears though, isn't it!


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

badgermyers said:



			After seeing the picture early in the thread get CC I thouht I would post a pic of my horse in an outline and see your views. I noticed someone said the reins need to be lose?! Not sure about that but they are here  

CC if you wish as I am interested in people opinions in regard to horses working correctly 






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I think your horse looks lovely and on first glance he looks to be working very nicely. But on closer inspection, he is not quite 'through'. I am not a fan of loose reins at all, but I hate a heavy contact even more! And so your picture is far preferable to me than someone riding their horse into a heavy contact. Your horse is looking very content and as far as I can tell, he is just about tracking up. But the rein has gone slack means that all communication is being lost with the front end. Now this may be only for a split second, or it can be continuous. Impossible to tell from a photograph. Your hands are turned inwards and downwards which looks as though you may be fiddling? Again impossible to tell for sure with a still photograph, but may be why your horse is ducking slightly behind the vertical. Overall a nice picture though, and just my type of horse!


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## Armas (10 September 2012)

Armas said:



			More long and low than an outline 


















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TigerTail said:



			Aramas can you see how the lad riding has 'tractor hands' ? As in theyre nigh on over his own knees? This is something a lot of people teach riders to do to try and tease the horses head down basically by pulling the bit down on the bars of the mouth, rather than doing all the very slow lateral work needed to build up the hind end to achieve self carriage, rather than man hand carriage. Lovely horse though 

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Not sure I would describe them as tractor hands 

What about this one ??


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## Pearlsasinger (10 September 2012)

littlelegs said:



			I'm perhaps not explaining it very well jftd. What I'm trying to get at is that if we all, including myself, actually focused more on correcting our own faults, even 10, 20, 30 yrs after we first aquired them, before putting too much emphasis on what our mount is doing then some problems would improve by themselves.
		
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This, exactly this, is what I've been trying (obviously not very clearly) to say.  IMO far too many people have been concentrating on commenting about the horse, when if the rider position had been corrected, the horse's way of going would have improved.
Some horses' conformation means that they struggle to go 'correctly' but they struggle even more if the rider is blocking them at every turn.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (10 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I think your horse looks lovely and on first glance he looks to be working very nicely. I am not a fan of loose reins at all, but I hate a heavy contact even more! And so your picture is far preferable to me than someone riding their horse into a heavy contact. Your horse is looking very content and as far as I can tell, he is just about tracking up. But the rein has gone slack means that all communication is being lost with the front end. Now this may be only for a split second, or it can be continuous. Impossible to tell from a photograph. Your hands are turned inwards and downwards which looks as though you may be fiddling? Again impossible to tell for sure with a still photograph, but may be why your horse is ducking slightly behind the vertical. Overall a nice picture though, and just my type of horse!
		
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Thanks, lose reins here as he has a funny mouth so I was being soft! He is now in a nathe and I have a contact now. He is only 4. As for tracking up he has a massive overtrack. I shall find another pic if I can. This is the 3rd time he was sat on after coming back as a 4 year old


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## nikicb (10 September 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Your horse is gorgeous!
And obviously responsive to his rider.
		
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Thank you.   He is responsive, but is still very babyish - he far prefers to be taken hold of (by which I mean he can feel the contact, not me pulling him!) and still requires steering round corners, but we're getting there.  I had my old girl for 30 years so she knew what I wanted by the merest weight change etc.  I often school in my grass arena so it's very good for us as we don't have walls and fences to rely on.



Pearlsasinger said:



			In your photos you are tipping forwards, with your legs back and your chin down, your arms straight and your hands flat.  This is making your horse look  to be 'downhill' or on the fore-hand, which I'm sure you already know, especially in the light of your comment about the new saddle.  I would be interested to see photos of you riding in the new saddle.

To correct this, imagine that you have  string attached .to the top of your head, pulling you upright.
		
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This all makes sense.  I felt incredibly perched in that saddle as I hadn't ridden in anything other than a dressage saddle for years.  It also had blocks in funny places which I only just found out were removable.   Hopefully the new saddle will make all the difference - I certainly felt the stretching of muscles which hadn't been stretched for a while the first few times I used it.   I'll try to remember the growing tall bit and the need for some more bend in my arms.  Hopefully I'll be able to post some better pictures at some time in the future.



Pearlsasinger said:



			You are quite right about giving developmental points in a positive manner, which I may well have been able to do if I'd been there in person, or seen videos of some of the riders but in many cases the 'snapshot in time' was taken at just the wrong moment - possibly more the fault of the photographer than of the rider.  As a (retired) teacher myself, I certainly understand the value of positive comment.
		
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  No worries.  I know I can be somewhat blunt about things, but too many years of 360 degree evaluations at work conditioned me to sugar coat the truth even if it doesn't come naturally. 

Thank you for taking the time to help.


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## Caol Ila (10 September 2012)

I got told once by a fellow livery that my riding looked "western."  When I said we were doing (attempting) dressage, she looked surprised and asked me if dressage was different in the States (where I'm originally from).  More influenced by western riding?  

Ouch.

If I'd got told that by a fellow Yank, who would be much more exposed to the western disciplines even if they didn't ride them, that comment would have definitely been an insult.  But given the context, I was just confused.

I would say that the above pics are the best moments of very mediocre, okay-ish rides.  I never ride particularly well when I enlist friends/family to point a camera at me.  I just get a bit tense and the bad habits get even more pronounced, as I lose the focus.


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Thanks, lose reins here as he has a funny mouth so I was being soft! He is now in a nathe and I have a contact now. He is only 4. As for tracking up he has a massive overtrack. I shall find another pic if I can. This is the 3rd time he was sat on after coming back as a 4 year old
		
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In that case, I am very impressed. I would have said he was eight at least!


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## PaddyMonty (10 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			If you can see all that from one photograph taken from a low profile then you should be doing some CC on this thread . I can see your left hand lowered but not your collapsed hip or that your weight is to the outside from this angle. Is it that you are aware of your faults and therefore can spot them because you know you were doing them at the time? Impulsion looks fine to me, though after what you have told me, maybe your horse was a tad unhappy, hence the ears? Still looks a very pleasing picture compared with some people that I teach!
		
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Just going from the pic.....
Comparing the horses front end to back end, whilst the inside hind is coming through the front end appears stuck. It is neither moving up significantly or out. For the power that should be created from that level of inside engagement the front end should be a lot freerer. As its not, the power is wasted so whilst there is huge potential for impulsion it is not realised.
Which leads on to why....
Again just from pic, upper body is tilted to the left slightly and inside hand has dropped.  For this to happen I have to have collapsed to a degree at the hip.  For me (or any rider) to remain in the saddle under these curcumstances something else has to change to remain in balance. Here my bum has moved slightly to the right which results in a change in the angle of my thigh (as my shoulders are still square). Instead of the inner part of my thigh being on the saddle the contact point has shifted more towards the back of the thigh with the result that the foot turns out.
Net effect of all these points together is to induce a compensating twist and balancing movement in the horse (not visible in the pic as horse weight compared to mine is much greater) which is blocking true impulsion.
Whilst I dont like the pic I think it is a good example of how a small error in the riders position can prevent what we are all striving for. Simply correcting my collapse would solve all the issues as everything would then come back in line and balance move back to the centre of the horse allowing straightness and the potential power to come through.

I used to spend a lot of time teaching but prefer not to critic on a forum as I dont know the person.  Whilst what I say may be correct I might well not say it in a way that is useful or acceptable to the person. When teaching one to one you can asses how to interact with the pupil. far more difficult on a forum


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## Nightmare before Christmas (10 September 2012)

First time under saddle at 4












Gone downhill here but trying to get him to stretch, 5th time under saddle at 4







Talking of downhill my little mare is always going down. Sorry I tip forward I have scoliosis so find being upright hard!


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## Littlelegs (10 September 2012)

I did get entirely what you meant by your first post pearlsasinger, rather than reading it as just being critical or personal. And possibly the best advice I have ever had was from a rather blunt boss, which went along the lines of 'if you cba to sit in the right ****ing place, why the **** should the horse bother? And if by chance it does, how the **** would it know it was there if you aren't too for **** sake?'. Maybe not the politest way to explain, but none the less true.


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

PaddyMonty said:









I used to spend a lot of time teaching but prefer not to critic on a forum as I dont know the person.  Whilst what I say may be correct I might well not say it in a way that is useful or acceptable to the person. When teaching one to one you can asses how to interact with the pupil. far more difficult on a forum 

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I take the view that if someone posts a pic up asking for critique, then they should be prepared to take the feedback on the assumption that it is well intended, may be worng, but may be extremely helpful. I think people would be very grateful for your views. You are highly observant and analytical.


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## Pearlsasinger (10 September 2012)

littlelegs said:



			I did get entirely what you meant by your first post pearlsasinger, rather than reading it as just being critical or personal. And possibly the best advice I have ever had was from a rather blunt boss, which went along the lines of 'if you cba to sit in the right ****ing place, why the **** should the horse bother? And if by chance it does, how the **** would it know it was there if you aren't too for **** sake?'. Maybe not the politest way to explain, but none the less true.
		
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PMSL!

Someone after my own heart, obviously.  That illustrates exactly what I was trying to say and I can definitely imagine some of the old horsemen that I've met saying something similar.

I'm sure that it is too blunt for a number of people though, and it isn't the approach I would take in my working life, although I might well think along those lines.


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## Littlelegs (10 September 2012)

Tbf, when he was speaking to people he didn't know well, or people who would be offended, you could actually see him biting his tongue while he tried to rephrase his thoughts in an acceptable way. Worked for me though, nothing cures a tendency to let the inside rein slip quite as quickly as someone telling you they will 'take the ****ing thing off if you don't want it' whilst you're riding a horse that is close to being too much for you with two reins.


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Tbf, when he was speaking to people he didn't know well, or people who would be offended, you could actually see him biting his tongue while he tried to rephrase his thoughts in an acceptable way. Worked for me though, nothing cures a tendency to let the inside rein slip quite as quickly as someone telling you they will 'take the ****ing thing off if you don't want it' whilst you're riding a horse that is close to being too much for you with two reins.
		
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Very good tactic!


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## pootleperkin (10 September 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			This, exactly this, is what I've been trying (obviously not very clearly) to say.  IMO far too many people have been concentrating on commenting about the horse, when if the rider position had been corrected, the horse's way of going would have improved.
Some horses' conformation means that they struggle to go 'correctly' but they struggle even more if the rider is blocking them at every turn.
		
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I couldn't agree more - I'm painfully aware that it is probably my shortcomings that have stopped my horse becoming far more advanced in his work before now (well, that and the fact that he is a bugger to get fit and keeps finding excuses to not get fit via sickness and injury!). 

However, I haven't had the opportunity to always have regular lessons, wasn't born on a horse and have never found that 'amazing' instructor who would take the time to insist on perfection before moving on to the next stage. Nor would I have had the time to act on that opportunity, even if I had found that instructor. I also know that even as my riding improves, my horse needs to be the best athlete he can be too, so I'm keen to know what sort of exercises I should be trying to apply to help him get stronger and more supple too. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I do the best with what I have, I strive to improve, but most of all, I want to enjoy my horses and competing them.

Seeing all sorts of pics on here, the best and worst, and then reading the various cc, agreeing and disagreeing, and so reflecting a bit on my own experience is a pretty useful exercise. Keeping it all positive for everyone is the best way to go I reckon 

FWIW, my fave rider on here by far is still AA's friend - his seat looks like it is out of a textbook.


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## Persephone (10 September 2012)

badgermyers said:



			First time under saddle at 4












Gone downhill here but trying to get him to stretch, 5th time under saddle at 4







Talking of downhill my little mare is always going down. Sorry I tip forward I have scoliosis so find being upright hard! 






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Sorry, BM on a slightly different vein, but that's a hell of a lot of tack for a horse just under saddle. What were your reasons for the grackle and martingale?


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

Persephone said:



			Sorry, BM on a slightly different vein, but that's a hell of a lot of tack for a horse just under saddle. What were your reasons for the grackle and martingale?
		
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Show jumping. Don't you know it's the law?


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## TigerTail (10 September 2012)

Persephone said:



			Sorry, BM on a slightly different vein, but that's a hell of a lot of tack for a horse just under saddle. What were your reasons for the grackle and martingale?
		
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x 2 ?

Aramas - yes def tractor hands!!! The other pic you put up is a bit better but they are still far too low and wide (btw I teach classical so may differ slightly to some people on here )

Wagtail - Im sorry but I really really cannot agree that loose reins = bad. You say that this means all contact is dropped. I think we need to put this into a context, if a horse and rider are at a decent level schooling wise, ie all lateral work well established in walk and trot, no tack gadgets etc and the horse knows how to work from its back end and is settled in a natural outline (not being pulled there by the rider) then a smile in the reins would be a wonderful thing to see! It demonstrates the pure gymnastic ability of the horse to carry himself and his rider without assistance from the rider - thing of beauty in my opinion  

However a novice rider/horse does need the light contact, but for me this is opening and closing the fingers, never bracing or pulling back.


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			x 2 ?

Wagtail - Im sorry but I really really cannot agree that loose reins = bad. You say that this means all contact is dropped. I think we need to put this into a context, if a horse and rider are at a decent level schooling wise, ie all lateral work well established in walk and trot, no tack gadgets etc and the horse knows how to work from its back end and is settled in a natural outline (not being pulled there by the rider) then a smile in the reins would be a wonderful thing to see! It demonstrates the pure gymnastic ability of the horse to carry himself and his rider without assistance from the rider - thing of beauty in my opinion 

Click to expand...

The issue I have with it is that it often results in an inconsistency in the rein and therefore what looks like an irritating vibration in the horse's mouth as when I see this kind of thing the rein is usually alternating between drooping and contact. If you want to ride with a loose rein, then fine, but in schooling then please make your mind up whether you are riding western (all loose rein) or English (always with a contact unless giving the horse a loose rein as in giving and taking the rein or free walk on a long rein). 

I do however, sometimes ride a well schooled horse with no reins at all, to check how tuned in they are to my leg and weight aids, But that is just part of my schooling. Seeing reins go loose and then taught is just a pet hate of mine, I'm afraid, but that is not to say I am right, it is just my opinion.

ETA I think it shows more skill in a rider if they are able to maintain a gentle contact, keeping the same pressure on the bit through all paces and at all stages in the gait than to let the reins go loose, that actually, anyone can do.


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## Bernster (10 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			However a novice rider/horse does need the light contact, but for me this is opening and closing the fingers, never bracing or pulling back.
		
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Haven't read the whole thread, as this whole outline malarkey is such a huge amount to take in that I think I would be too bamboozled!  But I really struggle with this bit TT, gauging level of contact and how to get it right without pulling them into a false outline.

ETA Or waggling the reins, to annoy Wagtail !


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## Cortez (10 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			The issue I have with it is that it often results in an inconsistency in the rein and therefore what looks like an irritating vibration in the horse's mouth as when I see this kind of thing the rein is usually alternating between drooping and contact. If you want to ride with a loose rein, then fine, but in schooling then please make your mind up whether you are riding western (all loose rein) or English (always with a contact unless giving the horse a loose rein as in giving and taking the rein or free walk on a long rein). 

I do however, sometimes ride a well schooled horse with no reins at all, to check how tuned in they are to my leg and weight aids, But that is just part of my schooling. Seeing reins go loose and then taught is just a pet hate of mine, I'm afraid, but that is not to say I am right, it is just my opinion.

ETA I think it shows more skill in a rider if they are able to maintain a gentle contact, keeping the same pressure on the bit through all paces and at all stages in the gait than to let the reins go loose, that actually, anyone can do.
		
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Nice theory, but in my experience only works with horses which are REALLY capable of proper self carriage, which IME means Iberian horses or other extremely baroque-built ones. Vast majority of modern horses do not have the necessary neck positioning to do this for more than a few seconds, and modern dressage requires a certain amount of "appui".


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## PolarSkye (10 September 2012)

OK . . . this was taken yesterday in the warm-up arena at Fair Oak.  Not me on board.  He's been back in proper work for a couple of months and does varied work.  He was tense in the warm-up and that probably shows, but I like that he's showing activity in the trot and he's poll high b/c going btv/overbending/going behind the bit is one of his party tricks.  

How do we think he's doing?







P


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## Nightmare before Christmas (10 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Show jumping. Don't you know it's the law?
		
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haha! What a grackle and a breast plate? Breast plate = no diff to martingale

Grackle he was in work as a 3 year old and is a bugger for crossing the jaw and not turning. This was much better to me than changing the bit as like to keep bits simple at all times! 

Thought this was about outlines not a tack bash? I dont see what diff it makes tbh? I ride my horse not you  Feel free to come have a go though!

PS wagtail that is not at you I just liked your post


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## iloveCharlie5 (10 September 2012)

AprilBlue said:



			i've been all over the internet searchin about how to get a horse into an outline, wiggling my fingers doesn't work, engaging the horses hocks doesn't work and how do i get the horses back to relax??

my main question is, how do you get a horse into an outline

thanks 

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personally, i've found that it's all about the impulsion from behind! If my horse is slopping about at a snail pace, there is no way on this earth that she will go into an outline... I've just started using spurs on her because she can be lazy, and i noticed a difference almost immediately after i first asked her to walk on the first time i used them... She put her head nice and low and almost into an outline without me squeezing the reins!!! 
I've found it difficult in the past to get her into an outline, but previously I had a new forest pony that was a jumping pony, so it took a lot of  work to encourage him to accept the bit properly and get into an outline. Someone said earlier opening your hands and placing them lower???? and someone else said that was a load of rubbish... I've got to say, opening my hands and placing them lower really did help that pony, and pretty soon he was going about in the prettiest outline WITHOUT ME BEING HEAVY HANDED, SAWING ON THE REINS OR FORCING HIM THERE... so i guess it differs with the horse you're riding...?
so... yeah... im just rambling on now, im going to stop... 
Hope i helped a little!


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## TigerTail (10 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			The issue I have with it is that it often results in an inconsistency in the rein and therefore what looks like an irritating vibration in the horse's mouth as when I see this kind of thing the rein is usually alternating between drooping and contact. If you want to ride with a loose rein, then fine, but in schooling then please make your mind up whether you are riding western (all loose rein) or English (always with a contact unless giving the horse a loose rein as in giving and taking the rein or free walk on a long rein). 

I do however, sometimes ride a well schooled horse with no reins at all, to check how tuned in they are to my leg and weight aids, But that is just part of my schooling. Seeing reins go loose and then taught is just a pet hate of mine, I'm afraid, but that is not to say I am right, it is just my opinion.

ETA I think it shows more skill in a rider if they are able to maintain a gentle contact, keeping the same pressure on the bit through all paces and at all stages in the gait than to let the reins go loose, that actually, anyone can do.
		
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aah yes taught/slack is a diff kettle of fish, hence me saying exp horse and rider combo needed 

I dont think its a case of classifying it as western or english, it should be english riding getting a lot damn better and moving away from this heavy contact idea that has crept through the BHS teachers and was so prevalent in the olys. Classical dressage, ie riding with loops in the reins because you and your horse are so damn good should be what we all strive for!

Cortez you are so right about the iberians being such a capable horse for this, as opposed to the modern BD fashion horse breeds 

BM it makes a difference because those are gadgets, which mean that any outline you achieve is false. Its also overly complex for such a baby who should be taught flexions and relaxation of the jaw to accept the bit which is impossible in a grackle.

Bernster v diff without giving you a lesson! Come to yorks on hol and give me a buzz


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## Nightmare before Christmas (10 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			aah yes taught/slack is a diff kettle of fish, hence me saying exp horse and rider combo needed 

I dont think its a case of classifying it as western or english, it should be english riding getting a lot damn better and moving away from this heavy contact idea that has crept through the BHS teachers and was so prevalent in the olys. Classical dressage, ie riding with loops in the reins because you and your horse are so damn good should be what we all strive for!

Cortez you are so right about the iberians being such a capable horse for this, as opposed to the modern BD fashion horse breeds 

BM it makes a difference because those are gadgets, which mean that any outline you achieve is false. Its also overly complex for such a baby who should be taught flexions and relaxation of the jaw to accept the bit which is impossible in a grackle.

Bernster v diff without giving you a lesson! Come to yorks on hol and give me a buzz 

Click to expand...


How is a grackle and breast plate a gadget to achieve an outline! I can do the outline without the grackle but he crosses his jaw and I cant turn? 

I always aim to produce professionally and correctly. 

Sorry if my tack offends you

Next time ill try a pelham, draw reins, spurs and oats......


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## PolarSkye (10 September 2012)

OY . . . don't make me come over there and bash your heads together . . . 

. . . point is, what do the confo/movement experts think of my stonkingly beautiful horse (see picture above)?

C'mon . . . some perspective here . . . what's really important here is the Kali lurve .

P


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## TigerTail (10 September 2012)

badgermyers said:



			How is a grackle and breast plate a gadget to achieve an outline! I can do the outline without the grackle but he crosses his jaw and I cant turn? 

I always aim to produce professionally and correctly. 

Sorry if my tack offends you

Next time ill try a pelham, draw reins, spurs and oats......
		
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BM it doesnt offend me, but its not correct for classical dressage which is what I have on the brain  As I said in my other post, the grackle prevents the horse being able to relax his jaw, if the jaw is rigid the dorsal muscle which connects from the poll down the back is not able to relax (need to dig my notes out if you want all the proper muscles involved) and therefore the horse cannot lift its back to properly support the rider and being to use its hind end.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (10 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			BM it doesnt offend me, but its not correct for classical dressage which is what I have on the brain  As I said in my other post, the grackle prevents the horse being able to relax his jaw, if the jaw is rigid the dorsal muscle which connects from the poll down the back is not able to relax (need to dig my notes out if you want all the proper muscles involved) and therefore the horse cannot lift its back to properly support the rider and being to use its hind end.
		
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Ah I dont do dressage  I dont strap him shut but he seemed to carry his jaw naturally crossed and it was really hindering his schooling! i prefer the grackle to strong bits, as you can see my mare goes in one too! Shes a bugger though so doesnt count


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## Farma (10 September 2012)

badgermyers said:



			How is a grackle and breast plate a gadget to achieve an outline! I can do the outline without the grackle but he crosses his jaw and I cant turn? 

I always aim to produce professionally and correctly. 

Sorry if my tack offends you

Next time ill try a pelham, draw reins, spurs and oats......
		
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Everyone was taking the cc so well on this thread and having quite good discussions, suppose it had to end some time


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			OK . . . this was taken yesterday in the warm-up arena at Fair Oak.  Not me on board.  He's been back in proper work for a couple of months and does varied work.  He was tense in the warm-up and that probably shows, but I like that he's showing activity in the trot and he's poll high b/c going btv/overbending/going behind the bit is one of his party tricks.  

How do we think he's doing?







P
		
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Lovely horse. Yes, you are right, the tension shows. He is tight at the base of his neck by his withers and this is causing a small amount of bulge in the lower neck. He is also hollow in his back. All tension related. Although the rider has loose reins, she looks very stiff indeed which I would expect has a lot to do with why the horse's back is hollow and he is tense at the withers.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (10 September 2012)

Farma said:



			Everyone was taking the cc so well on this thread and having quite good discussions, suppose it had to end some time 

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this was a joke btw  I am happy with the comments and explaining my choices  also a little lost about gadgets


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## PolarSkye (10 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Lovely horse. Yes, you are right, the tension shows. He is tight at the base of his neck by his withers and this is causing a small amount of bulge in the lower neck. He is also hollow in his back. All tension related. Although the rider has loose reins, she looks very stiff indeed which I would expect has a lot to do with why the horse's back is hollow and he is tense at the withers.
		
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Thanks Wagtail for taking the time to comment and what you say makes much sense.    

Hollow is his preferred way of going . . . it's his default setting . . . and while he is learning to "let go" at home, at his first event in three years he certainly defaulted right back to where he is comfy.  To be fair to Z (rider), I think she was stiff b/c he was very, very tense . . . it was a busy warm-up ring and they were feeding off each other a little, but it's certainly worth noting.  They are a relatively new partnership and she has never taken him to a competition before . . . with time, I hope she will relax more with him - she doesn't ride him like this at home.  

Personally, I am happy that he was able to lift his head and not lock his jaw . . . before he came to us he was ridden in draw reins and a martingale and was very tight through the jaw/upper neck/always behind the bit as a defensive measure.  To see him actually be prepared to poke his nose forward and take his poll up without fear of being winched in is huge . . . but yes, there's much improvement to be made.  

Again - really appreciate your constructive comments - thank you.

P


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## jhoward (10 September 2012)

badgermyers said:



			haha! What a grackle and a breast plate? Breast plate = no diff to martingale

Grackle he was in work as a 3 year old and is a bugger for crossing the jaw and not turning. This was much better to me than changing the bit as like to keep bits simple at all times! 

Thought this was about outlines not a tack bash? I dont see what diff it makes tbh? I ride my horse not you  Feel free to come have a go though!

PS wagtail that is not at you I just liked your post 

Click to expand...




badgermyers said:



			How is a grackle and breast plate a gadget to achieve an outline! I can do the outline without the grackle but he crosses his jaw and I cant turn? 

I always aim to produce professionally and correctly. 

Sorry if my tack offends you

Next time ill try a pelham, draw reins, spurs and oats......
		
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bm a few things to point out.

1, if a horse is crossing its jaw and difficult to turn and its just under saddle, then its prep/ground work needs redoing

2, a breast plate and martingale are TWO different items of tack. 


3, whilst harping on aiming to be proffesional, may i suggest that you learn how to tack up correctly, your breast plate in the first picture is attached in- correctly. (long straps are ment to go round your girth not onto saddle d rings)


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## Nightmare before Christmas (10 September 2012)

jhoward said:



			bm a few things to point out.

1, if a horse is crossing its jaw and difficult to turn and its just under saddle, then its prep/ground work needs redoing

2, a breast plate and martingale are TWO different items of tack. 


3, whilst harping on aiming to be proffesional, may i suggest that you learn how to tack up correctly, your breast plate in the first picture is attached in- correctly. (long straps are ment to go round your girth not onto saddle d rings)

Click to expand...

I have no attachments on girth and have never seen one of this type go there but shall have a look! 

I have been producing horses for years so know a small amount. I dont understand the issue with my tack tbh, my horse is happy and working well. It works for me and him and doesnt effect anyone else? 

The breastplate stops my saddle slipping and has a martingale? Not sure that its going to affect his way of going?

As for ground work I dont really feel like running behind him as he only really does it in a working trot or canter, normally when excited! The rest of the time he is crossed but doesnt hinder work.


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			Thanks Wagtail for taking the time to comment and what you say makes much sense.    

Hollow is his preferred way of going . . . it's his default setting . . . and while he is learning to "let go" at home, at his first event in three years he certainly defaulted right back to where he is comfy.  To be fair to Z (rider), I think she was stiff b/c he was very, very tense . . . it was a busy warm-up ring and they were feeding off each other a little, but it's certainly worth noting.  They are a relatively new partnership and she has never taken him to a competition before . . . with time, I hope she will relax more with him - she doesn't ride him like this at home.  

Personally, I am happy that he was able to lift his head and not lock his jaw . . . before he came to us he was ridden in draw reins and a martingale and was very tight through the jaw/upper neck/always behind the bit as a defensive measure.  To see him actually be prepared to poke his nose forward and take his poll up without fear of being winched in is huge . . . but yes, there's much improvement to be made.  

Again - really appreciate your constructive comments - thank you.

P
		
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He does look like a light, responsive ride and I can imagine how he must look when he's relaxed. Having said all that, his expression in the photograph is pretty happy. I think he's enjoying himself!


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## Nightmare before Christmas (10 September 2012)

Oh dear I appear to be able to fit tack correctly...awkward though I wouldnt expect much less from producing horses properly for 8 years and doing this to make money! Also if I was wrong most professionals around me are also wrong


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## FfionWinnie (10 September 2012)

Be quite happy if we could keep the happy informative tone of this thread.


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## PolarSkye (10 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			He does look like a light, responsive ride and I can imagine how he must look when he's relaxed. Having said all that, his expression in the photograph is pretty happy. I think he's enjoying himself!
		
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Light and responsive?  Erm . . . sometimes.  He's a lot like the little girl in the nursery rhyme . . . "when she was good she was very, very good and when she was bad she was horrid" . . . that's the Bear . . . he can be really soft and responsive at home if he's in the mood . . . but if he isn't in the mood then he's an awkward so and so.  

But, yes, he does look very happy in that picture and he certainly enjoyed himself yesterday - which is what counts.  We can work on the rest.

And I really appreciate your constructive crit.  What, if anything, would you do to to improve his way of going if you were the rider (bearing in mind they were at a competition)?

P


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## PolarSkye (10 September 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			Be quite happy if we could keep the happy informative tone of this thread. 

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Yes, and me.  Can we stop the bickering about tack now please?

P


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## FfionWinnie (10 September 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			Yes, and me.  Can we stop the bickering about tack now please?

P
		
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Yes. 


Slopes off to remove martingale before attempting photo session


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## Four Seasons (10 September 2012)

Very interesting thread! Like reading all the CC


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## Nightmare before Christmas (10 September 2012)

More than happy to stop about the tack. I asked about my horse afterall  Its okay anything I post the same people have to find faults, I just wanted to show that I can fit tack incase others on here query their tack fitting skills also


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Agree with these comments. Elsazzo, sorry, I did not realise you were looking for CC as I thought you were posting in direct response to the OP regarding outline. Your horse is going forwards nicely but has become a bit 'strung out'. The contact looks very 'wooden' as though your horse is not submissive to the aids and is coming against your hand. You need to get (her?) back on her hocks by sitting up more and taking the contact back a tad. She may need a half halt here and there to get her attention and lighten her up. You already have the impulsion and the front end is almost, but not quite there.
		
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thanks wagtail 

Are you referring to the 2nd pic i put up? (the dodgy/ist one!) sorry Its been taken down as they were copyrighted and I forgot about that?!! woops!! 

what did u make of the other 2- particularly the canter one if u saw it as it was a good clear picture?


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## el_Snowflakes (10 September 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			Be quite happy if we could keep the happy informative tone of this thread. 

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i hear that!


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## Wagtail (10 September 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			Light and responsive?  Erm . . . sometimes.  He's a lot like the little girl in the nursery rhyme . . . "when she was good she was very, very good and when she was bad she was horrid" . . . that's the Bear . . . he can be really soft and responsive at home if he's in the mood . . . but if he isn't in the mood then he's an awkward so and so.  

But, yes, he does look very happy in that picture and he certainly enjoyed himself yesterday - which is what counts.  We can work on the rest.

And I really appreciate your constructive crit.  What, if anything, would you do to to improve his way of going if you were the rider (bearing in mind they were at a competition)?

P
		
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Personally, if they have the space, I would lunge him. Then she could take up the contact right away as he will be warmed up. Problem is at competitions, if yo get straight on, you can't do the normal warm up on a loose rein if they are excited. You have to keep hold of them but this means they are working in an incorrect outline on a tight rein which exercises the wrong muscles.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (10 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Personally, if they have the space, I would lunge him. Then she could take up the contact right away as he will be warmed up. Problem is at competitions, if yo get straight on, you can't do the normal warm up on a loose rein if they are excited. You have to keep hold of them but this means they are working in an incorrect outline on a tight rein which exercises the wrong muscles.
		
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Lunging is great  I work mine in the pessoa a few times a week at the moment. My physio can see a massive difference in the strength on my young horse (the bay)


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## PolarSkye (10 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Personally, if they have the space, I would lunge him. Then she could take up the contact right away as he will be warmed up. Problem is at competitions, if yo get straight on, you can't do the normal warm up on a loose rein if they are excited. You have to keep hold of them but this means they are working in an incorrect outline on a tight rein which exercises the wrong muscles.
		
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Huh . . . and we took the lunge line and didn't use it . . . this is great advice, thank you .  

P


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## PolarSkye (10 September 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Lunging is great  I work mine in the pessoa a few times a week at the moment. My physio can see a massive difference in the strength on my young horse (the bay)
		
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He gets lunged once a week or so at home as a matter of course . . . firm believer in it being a good way to engage brain and muscles if used correctly, but really should have engaged my own brain and lunged him at the event . . . would have been a great way to get his brain focussed and get him relaxed (my idea of lunging is not wearing horse out by hooning it round on the end of a line - I prefer to encourage the horse to stretch and use transitions within paces to get the brain thinking).

Thanks guys!

P


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## Kokopelli (10 September 2012)

Is this a good example of long and low or is it too low?






Really tried correcting my position as well as I could today and feeling extremely disheatened. The only work I managed to get out of him was very deep and BTV or nose poking. He was really rushy and not listening to my half halts and was slightly on the forehand which is unlike him. He was so unstraight even after trying all the tricks in my book for it I couldn't get him to work in a straight line which I think was causing the other issues. Going to hack for a week then got a lesson on friday as I don't want to keep plugging away at 'average' work when Louie can do better than that. Shame about the numpty on top.


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## Cortez (10 September 2012)

BadgerMyers, you appear to be getting very defensive and i don't want to join in, BUT that's an awful lot of corrective equipment on a supposedly "blank canvas" just-backed young horse? If you really "need" all that then there is something very wrong with the basic training. Martingale is to stop the horse going above the bit: why is he above the bit? Breastplace is to stop thye saddle slipping back: why doesn't the saddle fit? Rubber bit guards are to stop the bit rubbing the horse's mouth; why doesn't the bit fit? Do you now understand why all the questions?


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## Cortez (10 September 2012)

Kokopelli said:



			Is this a good example of long and low or is it too low?






Really tried correcting my position as well as I could today and feeling extremely disheatened. The only work I managed to get out of him was very deep and BTV or nose poking. He was really rushy and not listening to my half halts and was slightly on the forehand which is unlike him. He was so unstraight even after trying all the tricks in my book for it I couldn't get him to work in a straight line which I think was causing the other issues. Going to hack for a week then got a lesson on friday as I don't want to keep plugging away at 'average' work when Louie can do better than that. Shame about the numpty on top. 

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No, very hard to go "too low", but it is not "attached", i.e. the horse is not in contact with the reins, and if you look his steps are not attached either....not stepping through 'cos there is no connection. Push more forwards perhaps?


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## Kokopelli (10 September 2012)

Cortez said:



			No, very hard to go "too low", but it is not "attached", i.e. the horse is not in contact with the reins, and if you look his steps are not attached either....not stepping through 'cos there is no connection. Push more forwards perhaps?
		
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The reins are supposed to be very loose. I do see what you mean about stepping through, when  I lunge I like him to go slow so he doesn't rush which he often does but I suppose I haven't been keeping the impulsion going so need to work on that, thank you


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## Four Seasons (10 September 2012)

I'm just gonna join in here. Kokopelli, your horse isn't connecting from back to front. The hindleg isn't exactly the same as the front, he is pushing, not carrying. Long and low here is an easy peasy game for him. As all he has to do is lower his head and push, so he's not working through his body. He is not raising his back and training his abdominal muscles. To get these working, there should be a connection from back to front. Pessoa is one way to make a horse work through and raise his back. Or if I'm saying this correctly, double lunging reins.


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## Kokopelli (10 September 2012)

Four Seasons said:



			I'm just gonna join in here. Kokopelli, your horse isn't connecting from back to front. The hindleg isn't exactly the same as the front, he is pushing, not carrying. Long and low here is an easy peasy game for him. As all he has to do is lower his head and push, so he's not working through his body. He is not raising his back and training his abdominal muscles. To get these working, there should be a connection from back to front. Pessoa is one way to make a horse work through and raise his back. Or if I'm saying this correctly, double lunging reins.
		
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I see what you mean, he is a smart chap so can make anything easier by looking like he's working when he's really not.  I should add he isn't like this under saddle, have got a photo a few pages back. Not a big fan of pessoa although I've got one I've found them to lean badly. Will give double reins a go, they're the only thing that work with my tb so not sure why I haven't really tried them on him. Thanks for your reply.


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## Four Seasons (10 September 2012)

Kokopelli said:



			I see what you mean, he is a smart chap so can make anything easier by looking like he's working when he's really not.  I should add he isn't like this under saddle, have got a photo a few pages back. Not a big fan of pessoa although I've got one I've found them to lean badly. Will give double reins a go, they're the only thing that work with my tb so not sure why I haven't really tried them on him. Thanks for your reply.
		
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Ah, smartypants horse, got one here too.

Tried to look up your pic, got to page 29, but then got sick of scrolling every page. Do you know which page it's on?

It depends on the horse with the pessoa. Some can lean, some like to crawl behind the bit, some work amazing.


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## rowy (10 September 2012)

This thread has been great  I too, am someone whose hands tend to stick to the saddle so today, in my lesson, I worked hard on lifting my hands and my boy went so much better in the contact! Most definitely have to remember to carry my hands and look up


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## Kokopelli (10 September 2012)

It's on page 18 so quite a while away, I'll probably try in the pessoa and see how he takes it will play it by year with him


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## Nightmare before Christmas (10 September 2012)

Cortez said:



			BadgerMyers, you appear to be getting very defensive and i don't want to join in, BUT that's an awful lot of corrective equipment on a supposedly "blank canvas" just-backed young horse? If you really "need" all that then there is something very wrong with the basic training. Martingale is to stop the horse going above the bit: why is he above the bit? Breastplace is to stop thye saddle slipping back: why doesn't the saddle fit? Rubber bit guards are to stop the bit rubbing the horse's mouth; why doesn't the bit fit? Do you now understand why all the questions?
		
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I always wear bit rings on young horses, I find it helps turning (personal thing). I use the same saddle on everyhorse and the same breast plate, so thats why thats on and I always wear a martingale required or not. 

I have explained the grackle. I didnt do the ground work with him. I imported him as being sat on once and went from there. I think he is coming on nicely for a young horse. 


I understand the questions and have answered them all


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## Four Seasons (10 September 2012)

Kokopelli said:



			It's on page 18 so quite a while away, I'll probably try in the pessoa and see how he takes it will play it by year with him 

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Ah, just saw them. They look good, more carriage there and raising his back. Still pushing a tiny bit, but that will probably be sorted with training and time.


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## Four Seasons (10 September 2012)

This is one of me & my 6 year old. When I bought her she was as green as grass. Been training properly for 4 months now, with some holidays of a week in between. As she is quite short, she finds carrying weight behind quite easy. My seat needs to be worked on though, but she isn't the easiest to sit on. CC more than welcome!


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## Mince Pie (10 September 2012)

Can I join in too? Please excuse the picture quality! I was jumping which is why my stirrups are so short


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## Holly Hocks (10 September 2012)

Rhino commented earlier on these, but nobody else did.......any more comments will happily be received.

So - faults are.....perching on this one - need to sit up more and allow the forwards movement?  (horse is dead now, so I won't be able to improve him sorry!)







Looking down - need to look up to allow the front end to lift? (horse 6 days out of racing here)






And need to smile and stop glaring at photographer? 






Thank you!!


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## TigerTail (10 September 2012)

badgermyers said:



			I have been producing horses for years so know a small amount. I dont understand the issue with my tack tbh, my horse is happy and working well. It works for me and him and doesnt effect anyone else? 

The breastplate stops my saddle slipping and has a martingale? Not sure that its going to affect his way of going?

As for ground work I dont really feel like running behind him as he only really does it in a working trot or canter, normally when excited! The rest of the time he is crossed but doesnt hinder work.
		
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Hi BM - sorry went out for dinner and only just catching up on this thread!

I realise you have been producing horses for several years, but experience doesnt always mean the correct knowledge  The very fact that you keep asking why certain pieces of tack would affect his way of going implies that you need to do a lot of research into each piece of tack on its design and intention, and dont just read the manufacturers blurb!

A martingale is to keep the horses head within a certain range. Therefore it effects how he carries his head. As a baby he needs to be allowed to find those boundaries himself - as and when he has the muscular strength to do so. Dont forget there is 8-? stone of you on top of him, this isnt natural for a horse! They dont magically work out how to carry an extra load and develop the extra muscle overnight. As I said before its creating an artificial way of going for the horse.

A grackle as you know is designed to stop the horse opening its mouth and crossing its jaw. However there are always REASONS why the horse does this. Once all the health ones have been crossed out by a vet and or EDT you need to go back to basics. For me this would be on the ground in a simple snaffle or mullen mouth with a bridle with no noseband. Id have reins attached and squeeze and release one rein, as soon as the horse looked or shifted its weight to that direction id let the rein go and reward with a scratch. Id do the same the other side. Id ask it to walk on then halt by turning by body in, exhaling and squeezing both reins, being sure to release as soon as he stopped. Once i can turn stop yield the forehand and quarters on the ground id progress to flexions on board, and then the same exercises id done on the ground. 

If your horse requires a grackle steps in his education have been missed and should for the good of the horse be corrected.

I am exceedingly concerned you use the same saddle for all horses, despite the fact you acknowledge it doesnt fit as you know it slips. Have you ever seen a horse do a belly lift? If you have you know their backs can move upwards a good 3-4 inches - how you can contemplate putting a rigid saddle on that back is beyond me to be honest


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## Four Seasons (10 September 2012)

Ok, here it goes. 

@ Holly Hocks
You do the same as I did. Not letting your body follow the movement of the horse. Hands forward! Thats the best trick out there, once you put your hands forward, your body will relax and you will automatically let your body follow the movement. 

@ BBH
Can't really see it properly, but your horse is pushing his weight, not carrying it and is very much on the forehand. Cobs find this harder, but with plenty of transitions, tempi changes etc. and a lot of patience, he will learn to use his body as a whole and start to carry more weight behind, therefor reducing the chance for injuries or difficulties when riding.


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## Holly Hocks (10 September 2012)

Four Seasons said:



			Ok, here it goes. 

@ Holly Hocks
You do the same as I did. Not letting your body follow the movement of the horse. Hands forward! Thats the best trick out there, once you put your hands forward, your body will relax and you will automatically let your body follow the movement. 

QUOTE]

Thanks - that is EXACTLY what the instructor I used to have told me all the time - I've not had lessons for a while as the horse has been out of work for some time and the schooling is just restarting again - but hopefully I'll start some lessons once her fitness has built up. My other fault which won't be clear on the photos is that I find it hard to keep my hands still...and I look down - all the time!!
		
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## Four Seasons (10 September 2012)

Haha, when you have a good lookin' horse, you've just gotta look at it all the time, I do too. I am slowly getting out of it by looking between the ears, instead of neck/head. So I still can look at my pretty ponies, but at the same time sort of looking up. 

And keeping your hands still... what do you do exactly?


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## JFTDWS (10 September 2012)

Four seasons, what exactly do you mean "pushing himself along" rather than "carrying his weight" - do you mean pulling himself along on the forehand rather than transferring his weight back onto his hocks, or something else?

Am I being dim?


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## Holly Hocks (10 September 2012)

Four Seasons said:



			Haha, when you have a good lookin' horse, you've just gotta look at it all the time, I do too. I am slowly getting out of it by looking between the ears, instead of neck/head. So I still can look at my pretty ponies, but at the same time sort of looking up. 

And keeping your hands still... what do you do exactly?
		
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Well they just move all the time - I have a very active right hand which just snatches intermittently.  My instructor made me ride with a lead rein round the horses neck at one time to stop me doing it - and it worked really well - but I fear I may have started doing it again.  It's as if my hands won't work independently from my body.  At least I am aware of it, but it's a hard habit to break!


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## TigerTail (10 September 2012)

Four Seasons said:



			Ok, here it goes. 

@ Holly Hocks
You do the same as I did. Not letting your body follow the movement of the horse. Hands forward! Thats the best trick out there, once you put your hands forward, your body will relax and you will automatically let your body follow the movement.
		
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WHAT?! So sorry but putting your hands forward has absolutly nothing to do with absorbing the movement of the horse. All its going to do is tip you on to your fork, encourage your lower leg to swing back and destabilise your seat. This may give the illusion of 'going with the movement' (we should have a whole new thread on how people think they go about doing that ) but its actually not doing a damn thing.

HollyHocks you have a lovely stable leg, your foot (the one i can see!) points forwards which is so rare to see  
You tend towards sitting on your fork from those pics and are then compensating by having your shoulders rammed backwards. Its diff without video but I think you are allowing him to lean on the bit and pull the reins through your fingers, the last pic reins have got far too long and his nose is BTV as you are holding him there with your hands. Your elbows are wanting to come forwards and away from your ribs and your hands are too low. If he is leaning on you then try lifting your hands a little then taking them back to neutral as soon as he stops leaning, he will soon get the idea of where to be. I thnk you would benefit from walking around before you do anything else with no stirrups, swinging your legs in time to the walk from the hip, not the knee, and allowing yourself to find a 3 point seat rather than being on your fork 

EDIT - if you have active hands you need to work on getting them independent from your seat, which means lunge lessons with no reins in all gaits  and an instructor who knows what to look for in hands and how to correct them


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## Holly Hocks (10 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			WHAT?! So sorry but putting your hands forward has absolutly nothing to do with absorbing the movement of the horse. All its going to do is tip you on to your fork, encourage your lower leg to swing back and destabilise your seat. This may give the illusion of 'going with the movement' (we should have a whole new thread on how people think they go about doing that ) but its actually not doing a damn thing.

HollyHocks you have a lovely stable leg, your foot (the one i can see!) points forwards which is so rare to see  
You tend towards sitting on your fork from those pics and are then compensating by having your shoulders rammed backwards. Its diff without video but I think you are allowing him to lean on the bit and pull the reins through your fingers, the last pic reins have got far too long and his nose is BTV as you are holding him there with your hands. Your elbows are wanting to come forwards and away from your ribs and your hands are too low. If he is leaning on you then try lifting your hands a little then taking them back to neutral as soon as he stops leaning, he will soon get the idea of where to be. I thnk you would benefit from walking around before you do anything else with no stirrups, swinging your legs in time to the walk from the hip, not the knee, and allowing yourself to find a 3 point seat rather than being on your fork 

EDIT - if you have active hands you need to work on getting them independent from your seat, which means lunge lessons with no reins in all gaits  and an instructor who knows what to look for in hands and how to correct them 

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Thank you - unfortunatley my last instructor who taught classical and really helped me doesn't teach any more (fancy having a baby and giving up teaching!!  ) so I'm going to be on the hunt for a new instructor once horse is fully back in action. I don't mind a lunge lesson without reins..... a lunge lesson without stirrups would be another matter!!


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## Mince Pie (10 September 2012)

I think what she means is that he is pushing himself forwards and down and not creating lift?

Here's another one, I know my reins are too long and I, as TigerTail puts it, have a habit of "saddle shagging"  The idea was to not really touch him mouth but just concentrate on getting him forward, he offered me this so my hands came back and I tilted forwards.






I am sorry for quality of pictures but I've had to take photos of my TV!


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## Four Seasons (10 September 2012)

@ TigerTail
Yes it has. If you keep your hands close to your body, thus tensing up your arms, thus tensing up your shoulders and so on, simply putting your hands forwards does help. It makes you relax more through your arms, shoulder and back, giving you the opportunity to find your balance plus how to move with the horse. I used to do it all the time and now after getting into the habit of not keep my hands close to me all the time, I can sit up straight, relax and balance properly on my horse, going with the movement in every gait.

@ Holly Hocks
Have you tried the tennis/stressball trick? Try strengthening up you weakest hands by squeezing a tennisball alot, that really helped me from snatching at the reins with my strongest hand and evened out the contact more.

@ JTFD
By carrying his weight I mean exactly what you say. You can see it when the diagonal is not the same (both diagonal legs on the ground, got to be more or less the same).


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## Mince Pie (10 September 2012)

Four seasons just realised that the angles of my trot photo are all wrong (was trotting past the camcorder at an angle, then the picture I took of the TV is also on an angle!), here is better pic


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## TigerTail (10 September 2012)

Four Seasons said:



			@ TigerTail
Yes it has. If you keep your hands close to your body, thus tensing up your arms, thus tensing up your shoulders and so on, simply putting your hands forwards does help. It makes you relax more through your arms, shoulder and back, giving you the opportunity to find your balance plus how to move with the horse. I used to do it all the time and now after getting into the habit of not keep my hands close to me all the time, I can sit up straight, relax and balance properly on my horse, going with the movement in every gait.
		
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Ooook  if you stand up and are entirely relaxed where do your arms fall? Do they hang by your sides or do they stick straight out in front of you? If they stick straight out in front of you then I bow to you and indeed your arms are in a relaxed position stuck out in front of you..... If however they drop my your sides and hang loosely  your shoulders should be relaxed. If you lift your forearms like you are carrying a tray it should primarily be your elbow and foreams involved, not your shoulders and back (obv they are involved but not to the point they are under so much strain as to be tense) if you take your arms forward and back you are doing Wagtails pet hate of fluctuating the rein contact, confusing the horses and messing up any outline you are hoping to create.

Broke But Happy if you do indeed saddle sh@g, looking at your position in general I would guess your saddle, and most importantly stirrup bar position, are contributing. If the horse not leaning on your hands and beginning to carry himself caused your upper body to tip forwards your hands are not independent of your seat and you too need to join the reinless lunge club


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## Four Seasons (10 September 2012)

Thats a better pic! The diagonals look much better there, more or less the same! Your inside hand is the closest towards you and flat, in a weird position too, haha. It your inside hand the strongest?

@ TigerTail
When I mean put your hands forward, I don't mean 20 cm forward, just a few cms make the difference. I don't quite understand how your bringing this.... or how you mean it.... it's late here in Holland. 

And most people who keep their hands close to themselves, are trying to balance their weight on the reins. By putting your hands (forearm, whatever it is) a tiny bit forward, you can't support yourself anymore, unless you are sitting on your thighs.


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## Pearlsasinger (10 September 2012)

rowy said:



			............. in my lesson, I worked hard on lifting my hands and my boy went so much better in the contact! Most definitely have to remember to carry my hands and look up 

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You and the vast majority of the riders on this thread, particularly (as far as I can tell) the younger ones.  I'm beginning to think that there must have been a phase of teaching this position as correct.


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## Pearlsasinger (10 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			WHAT?! So sorry but putting your hands forward has absolutly nothing to do with absorbing the movement of the horse. All its going to do is tip you on to your fork, encourage your lower leg to swing back and destabilise your seat. This may give the illusion of 'going with the movement' (we should have a whole new thread on how people think they go about doing that ) but its actually not doing a damn thing.

)
		
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I tell you I'm convinced that there must have been a phase of teaching a tilted seat, probably 10-20 yrs ago, judging by the ages of most of the riders tipping forward.
God knows why or what it was supposed to achieve.


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## LollyDolly (10 September 2012)

*Ok guys, oodles of advice needed here.*

I retrained my previous hunter into a dressage superstar with no problems, however with my current pony I am hitting a few snags. 
My previous horse had a naturally low head carriage and had a laid back (but explosive) attitude so he was fairly easy to retrain and it all went very smoothly. 

However my current pony is the complete opposite, he has a very high head carriage and a very stressful/fiery/forward going nature so I am having great difficulty getting him to go 'long and low'.

I have started to make a bit of headway, this is about as long and low as I can get him at the minute and you have no idea how proud I am of him for doing this! 







This took an unbelievable amount of hard work, believe it or not!

However, my main question is:

*How can you get a horse who has a *very* high head carriage and sharp nature to work into a contact?*

Sandy either wants to throw his head up and go like a typical BSJA pony or he will drop his poll into a fake outline where all of the bend is in his poll and he drops behind the vertical.

So, any idea's?


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## Amaranta (10 September 2012)

Armas said:



			Not sure I would describe them as tractor hands 


What about this one ??






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Perhaps tractor hands is a little harsh but I do agree that the horse is not showing long and low but is rather leaning on the reins to escape the hands.  The fact that the rider is tipping forward has exacerbated the problem and forced the horse onto his forehand.

For a horse to benefit from long and low he needs to stretch down into (not pull against) the contact, raising his back and consequently, over time, strengthening his back muscles which will help him come through and offer an outline.

This picture is actually worse than the first as the horse has hollowed through the back and shortened his whole frame - again in an effort to escape the contact.  From the muscle development of this horse I suspect he has not yet accepted the contact - he has very little topline (especially for a PRE) and no muscle behind, which would indicate that he is not going forward properly but rather is 'running' along.  I suspect the muscles along his back are also underdeveloped.

In none of the pictures is the horse accepting the contact properly and until he is going forward truly, he never will.


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## Four Seasons (10 September 2012)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I tell you I'm convinced that there must have been a phase of teaching a tilted seat, probably 10-20 yrs ago, judging by the ages of most of the riders tipping forward.
God knows why or what it was supposed to achieve.
		
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I was never taught to sit tilted, but to sit up straight, with the shoulder, hip, heel line. 6 months ago I started to ride my young one and sat in the lightly tilted seat to let her learn how to raise her back. But then it got worse and I really started tipping because of balance issues from my side, now getting out of the bad habit, I'm starting to sit the correct way again. Anyway, I've mostly be taught in Holland.


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## Mince Pie (10 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			Broke But Happy if you do indeed saddle sh@g, looking at your position in general I would guess your saddle, and most importantly stirrup bar position, are contributing. If the horse not leaning on your hands and beginning to carry himself caused your upper body to tip forwards your hands are not independent of your seat and you too need to join the reinless lunge club 

Click to expand...

I tend to do it in most saddles, I drive with my seat too much hence it just ends up saddle shagging. I am starting Pilates this week but because I look down already when my hands come back my shoulders come back as well and it's the final little thing that tips me forwards  



Four Seasons said:



			Thats a better pic! The diagonals look much better there, more or less the same! Your inside hand is the closest towards you and flat, in a weird position too, haha. It your inside hand the strongest?
		
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No, I was just about to give him a tap with the whip!


ETA: TigerTail I think this video shows my bad habits off nicely 







This is particularly bad, even for me!


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## Four Seasons (10 September 2012)

Hahaha, that explains it then!


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## Amaranta (10 September 2012)

LollyDolly said:



*Ok guys, oodles of advice needed here.*

I retrained my previous hunter into a dressage superstar with no problems, however with my current pony I am hitting a few snags. 
My previous horse had a naturally low head carriage and had a laid back (but explosive) attitude so he was fairly easy to retrain and it all went very smoothly. 

However my current pony is the complete opposite, he has a very high head carriage and a very stressful/fiery/forward going nature so I am having great difficulty getting him to go 'long and low'.

I have started to make a bit of headway, this is about as long and low as I can get him at the minute and you have no idea how proud I am of him for doing this! 







This took an unbelievable amount of hard work, believe it or not!

However, my main question is:

*How can you get a horse who has a *very* high head carriage and sharp nature to work into a contact?*

Sandy either wants to throw his head up and go like a typical BSJA pony or he will drop his poll into a fake outline where all of the bend is in his poll and he drops behind the vertical.

So, any idea's? 

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Believe it or not it is far easier to get a horse to come down than it is to get a downhill one up!

I had one just the same as yours, I literally spent weeks and weeks, long and low, starting in walk and not moving on until she was happy in that shape, lunging in a pessoa also helps (keep it short to begin with and never more than 15/20 mins), it takes time though with a horse like this and you must be prepared to be patient - do not be tempted to 'hold' him down there, concentrate more on the forward and then 'ask' for him to come down - remember that his muscles need retraining and he may not be able to sustain it for long periods.

You, yourself are quite tense through your back and are hollowing, your horse will mirror you, try to relax more through your own frame and this will really help him.


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## Four Seasons (10 September 2012)

Completely agree with Amaranta. Pessoa could help build the correct muscles, making it easier for you when riding.


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## LollyDolly (10 September 2012)

Believe it or not it is far easier to get a horse to come down than it is to get a downhill one up!
		
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I don't deny that, a downhill horse is built to have all of it's weight on the forehand so therefore it is very hard to get them to work correctly. 
Luckily enough my previous horse wasn't downhill, he just had a lovely lower set neck so he was much easier to work with. I was so lucky!  

Hmm, I will have to steal my friends pessoa and give it a go, I am in no rush to get him 'perfect' however I just want to make sure that I am doing everything correctly for him!  

Thanks for the advice, I really do appreciate it as I could use all of the advice that I can get!!


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## YorksG (10 September 2012)

Agree with Amaranta, I have a very forward going mare, who was ewe necked when we got her. Spent many hours doing transitions within the pace, between the paces and not moving out of trot until the neck was the right way up. One of the best schooling exercises is the walk for five, trot for five, sitting trot for five, rising trot for five, back to walk for five. You really best with someone on the ground calling the fives for you. The other good trick is to have a much less forward going hacking companion, the forward going one has to learn to adjust


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## mandwhy (10 September 2012)

This thread is epic, and lots of food for thought for when I am back in the saddle


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## Elf On A Shelf (11 September 2012)

My excuse for tipping forward - I ride Shetlands thus need to kind of look smaller than I really am. And I also work ride racehorses so am up and over anywho :-D

Basically I need a kick up the bum and a broom handle up my back - any volunteers?!?


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## FfionWinnie (11 September 2012)

mandwhy said:



			This thread is epic, and lots of food for thought for when I am back in the saddle 

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I agree it is the best one I have read on here.  Thanks to the main experts posting. It is very good of you to the CC but also thanks to the posters who have put photos on to be CCd as well. 

I got my oh to vid me schooling the pony last night and I have noticed a lot already. 

Lolly dolly I have similar problems with my welsh c x d. She wants to prance with her knees up to her nose and her head in a giraffe position. 

I am following the tips on here and if she improves I might put the vids up


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## Wagtail (11 September 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Oh dear I appear to be able to fit tack correctly...awkward though I wouldnt expect much less from producing horses properly for 8 years and doing this to make money! Also if I was wrong most professionals around me are also wrong 






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Isn't it great when this happens. Before people critisise they should be sure of their facts!

However, on a more serious note. I am very concerned that you use the same saddle on all of your horses. I thought that practice went out 30 years ago. I am not having a nit pick about tack, it's up to you what tack you use, but to not ensure a saddle is the right fit on every horse, is dreadful practice.


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## Wagtail (11 September 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			Rhino commented earlier on these, but nobody else did.......any more comments will happily be received.

So - faults are.....perching on this one - need to sit up more and allow the forwards movement?  (horse is dead now, so I won't be able to improve him sorry!)







Looking down - need to look up to allow the front end to lift? (horse 6 days out of racing here)






And need to smile and stop glaring at photographer? 






Thank you!!
		
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HH your horse is fab. I really like him. The only photo I have issue with is the first. Despite being in a pretty outline he is not through and working over his back, and consequently not tracking up. However, as he is only 6 days out of racing, I would day he is doing pretty damn well. You ride very nicely. Just remember to relax those shoulders and lift that chin.


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## Wagtail (11 September 2012)

LollyDolly said:



*Ok guys, oodles of advice needed here.*

I retrained my previous hunter into a dressage superstar with no problems, however with my current pony I am hitting a few snags. 
My previous horse had a naturally low head carriage and had a laid back (but explosive) attitude so he was fairly easy to retrain and it all went very smoothly. 

However my current pony is the complete opposite, he has a very high head carriage and a very stressful/fiery/forward going nature so I am having great difficulty getting him to go 'long and low'.

I have started to make a bit of headway, this is about as long and low as I can get him at the minute and you have no idea how proud I am of him for doing this! 







This took an unbelievable amount of hard work, believe it or not!

However, my main question is:

*How can you get a horse who has a *very* high head carriage and sharp nature to work into a contact?*

Sandy either wants to throw his head up and go like a typical BSJA pony or he will drop his poll into a fake outline where all of the bend is in his poll and he drops behind the vertical.

So, any idea's? 

Click to expand...

Hi there. I'm afraid you are fighting a losing battle with this one. Not due to a lack of ability, but because there is no way your pony will be able to work well when your saddle is far too small for you and you are sitting on the cantle! On the contrary, all your weight is being concentrated on the weakest part of his back. You will certainly cause back problems if you continue. Problem is, the saddle looks too narrow as it is tipping you back and compounding the problem. Even if you got a saddle wide enough for him, it would still be too short for you as he cannot take a longer saddle. Really sorry to have to tell you this, but I see a massive back problem in the future, and it is shouting out at me through that picture. I had to say something!

That aside, you are much too stiff in your back, and hollow. You need to stretch your spine upwards rather than bending it hollow. There seems to be a lot of tension in your neck, shoulders and arms. You are fixing your hands downwards so that you have a broken axis from elbow to bit. The saddle is tipping you back into an 'armchair' position. You have a good leg position which would be improved by a well balanced saddle.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (11 September 2012)

Wagtail (cant quote on phone) I do make sure my saddle fits well before use and normally use a prolite pad under. My saddle is memory foam and desinged to fit more than one horse as long as they are a similar shape  my saddle slips back on my mare because of her shape and i was advised to use a breast plate as they think any saddle would slip on her to a degree


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## Nightmare before Christmas (11 September 2012)

Also just read furter back. I know what the martingale and that is for. Id rather not give my horses an excuse to take steps back. Sometimes horses do what they do and needs correcting. You can come see him and you will see he is a lovely horse going great for his age. He is always complimented


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## FfionWinnie (11 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Hi there. I'm afraid you are fighting a losing battle with this one. Not due to a lack of ability, but because there is no way your pony will be able to work well when your saddle is far too small for you and you are sitting on the cantle! On the contrary, all your weight is being concentrated on the weakest part of his back. You will certainly cause back problems if you continue. Problem is, the saddle looks too narrow as it is tipping you back and compounding the problem. Even if you got a saddle wide enough for him, it would still be too short for you as he cannot take a longer saddle. Really sorry to have to tell you this, but I see a massive back problem in the future, and it is shouting out at me through that picture. I had to say something!

That aside, you are much too stiff in your back, and hollow. You need to stretch your spine upwards rather than bending it hollow. There seems to be a lot of tension in your neck, shoulders and arms. You are fixing your hands downwards so that you have a broken axis from elbow to bit. The saddle is tipping you back into an 'armchair' position. You have a good leg position which would be improved by a well balanced saddle.
		
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A good saddle fitter could help with this. I have a 17.5 inch saddle on a 13.2 welsh c x d and it fits us both. My legs are still too long tho


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## TigerTail (11 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Hi there. I'm afraid you are fighting a losing battle with this one. Not due to a lack of ability, but because there is no way your pony will be able to work well when your saddle is far too small for you and you are sitting on the cantle! On the contrary, all your weight is being concentrated on the weakest part of his back. You will certainly cause back problems if you continue. Problem is, the saddle looks too narrow as it is tipping you back and compounding the problem. Even if you got a saddle wide enough for him, it would still be too short for you as he cannot take a longer saddle. Really sorry to have to tell you this, but I see a massive back problem in the future, and it is shouting out at me through that picture. I had to say something!
		
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I was just sat here with my cup of tea trying to work out how on earth to put this  The saddle will be massively contributing if not causing the high head carriage. All your weight is on the back of the saddle, under which there is a reflex point which you are annihilating  His head will be going up in an attempt to hollow his back and give that reflex point some relief.

I think the best solution here would be a Heather Moffett soft treed saddle in a 17'' as these come up slightly at the back providing the rider is not shoved on to her pockets in a chair seat like you are in the pic shown but Im not even 100% sure that would be ok with with this combo 

Lose the flash, they are pointless things, a horse cannot relax at the poll if his jaw is strapped shut and therefore tense. In halt try squeezing and releasing the reins gently, it may take a while but eventually you should feel a little give as he relaxes his jaw and drops his head slightly, at this point ask him to walk forwards, if the head comes up bring back to halt and try again. However this isnt going to work with the weight all on the back of an ill fitting saddle 

BM Im not going to reply to you anymore, sorry if thats rude but I literally cannot bear to think about your reasons (uneducated ones at that), for using tack when you dont really know what its for and obviously have no interest in fixing the problem so you dont need the gadgets.


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## bex1984 (11 September 2012)

Can I play please?! This is my attempt at working Murphy 'properly', he's a 14.1hh fell x so not exactly built uphill but we did our best! I'm a rubbish novice rider so don't know what I'm doing. 



















He's currently on loan to a RS


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## sakura (11 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Agree with what Rhino has said. However, the single biggest problem is your arms. You are fixing your hands ridgedly downwards. Yo need to relax your shoulders and hang your elbows by your waist and bend them. Lovely horse!
		
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Thank you! I'm really going to focus on my arms!


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## Wagtail (11 September 2012)

bex1984 said:



			Can I play please?! This is my attempt at working Murphy 'properly', he's a 14.1hh fell x so not exactly built uphill but we did our best! I'm a rubbish novice rider so don't know what I'm doing. 



















He's currently on loan to a RS 

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Well, for a novice rider you are doing really well! Your pony is really moving forward, which is half the battle. In the first pic he is not working through and is tense at the withers, bringing him into a false outline. His unhappiness shows in his face 'I am finding this really hard!'. By unhappiness, I don't mean discomfort, just mild annoyance at being asked to work properly. The second picture shows a lovely hind leg action and tells of really good things to come. Not sure what you are doing with your hands there. He is very much on the forehand so perhaps you are attemting to lift him up? It also appears that you are bouncing somewhat in canter. You need a stronger lower leg position and more flexible pelvis action to absorb the movement at this gait. Plenty of half halts (executed in the moment of suspension) coupled with a strong leg and sitting tall are the key to getting him off the forehand in canter. But he will need the right muscles to be able to do this first. By the last picture, he is working more through his back and really using his hind legs. He is still slightly on the fore hand but much much better. You look like you have a good position and good communication through your hands. You maintain a nice straight line from elbow to bit (except in the canter pic!). Well done.


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## bex1984 (11 September 2012)

Thank you  The pics are a bit old as I've had nearly a year off riding due to having a baby which is why he's out on loan. I still get to ride him a few times a month but as he works in the school a lot I'm not asking anything of him in terms of working properly at the mo.

He's often very lazy and backwards-thinking so takes a lot of leg so my legs do tend to be all over the place as I'm working so hard! I'm not sure what I'm doing in that canter pic but I think he took me by surprise by going forward, and yes, I think I am trying to lift him a little. It took me ages to teach him that canter is a forwards pace, not an amble/attempt to dig to australia with his forelegs! We've also had major issues with cantering on the wrong lead. I did a lot of work on his jumping which seemed to pick up his canter a bit. 

I really only wanted to get him working properly because of the people who told me a pony like him could never work in an outline - to me he is SuperPony who is capable of anything 

Ironically, he's having such a whale of a time being a riding school pony (he only has kids on him, he loves kids and they do all sorts of things, jumping, mounted games etc) that he has become quite forward going!!


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## JFTDWS (11 September 2012)

bex1984 said:



			Can I play please?! This is my attempt at working Murphy 'properly', he's a 14.1hh fell x so not exactly built uphill but we did our best! I'm a rubbish novice rider so don't know what I'm doing.
		
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Absolute rot!  I'd be more likely to let you on one of mine on the strength of these photos than some of the "more experienced" riders on this thread!

I think you're leaning back a little and collapsing through your back in the trot photos to help you absorb the movement - rather than sitting up like a classical master, and as Wagtail says, your hands in the canter photo are odd and raised (he is on the forehand).  You're also gripping with your lower leg/knee in canter, which is drawing your lower leg back and your heel up (I do this sometimes, very frustrating!).  However, there is a great deal to like about the picture and your pony is gorgeous


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## Nightmare before Christmas (11 September 2012)

You ride lovely for a novice


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## PaddyMonty (11 September 2012)

JFTD said:



			Absolute rot!  I'd be more likely to let you on one of mine on the strength of these photos than some of the "more experienced" riders on this thread!
		
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Right, thats it! You're crossed off my visitor list next time I'm in east angular


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## Nightmare before Christmas (11 September 2012)

Indeed she has a lovely position. I blame mine on the scoliosis and the fact I showjump. We have our own "style"  nice horse too!


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## JFTDWS (11 September 2012)

PaddyMonty said:



			Right, thats it! You're crossed off my visitor list next time I'm in east angular 

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I didn't mean you, you're always welcome to come and ride _anything_ round mine


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## Nightmare before Christmas (11 September 2012)

Haha good job im not coming your way anyway then JFTD


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## JFTDWS (11 September 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Haha good job im not coming your way anyway then JFTD 

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The "open season" offer is only for men with nice arses in jodhs.  I don't throw myself at unsuspecting women


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## PolarSkye (11 September 2012)

bex1984 said:



			Can I play please?! This is my attempt at working Murphy 'properly', he's a 14.1hh fell x so not exactly built uphill but we did our best! I'm a rubbish novice rider so don't know what I'm doing. 



















He's currently on loan to a RS 

Click to expand...

No help with critique I'm afraid but he is very, very beautiful.  Reminds me very much of our old share mare - Nelly.



















P


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## Nightmare before Christmas (11 September 2012)

Haha I meant more about the experienced riders  not into throwing myself at women either.  Ps I love your horses  are they highlands?


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## JFTDWS (11 September 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Haha I meant more about the experienced riders  not into throwing myself at women either.  Ps I love your horses  are they highlands?
		
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lol you weren't top of my list when I wrote that comment either   They are indeed highlands, they're more likely to go under the sort of jumps yours would go over though


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## JFTDWS (11 September 2012)

PolarSkye said:









P
		
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smiley smiley, what a cute pic


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## Nightmare before Christmas (11 September 2012)

Haha tbh I wouldnt have taken offence. Dressage stuff isnt my area but I do try hard to produce a showjumper who goes well on the flat as I think its important. Even with my illegal tack haha.  I love your ponies! They look like great fun! I want one now


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## JFTDWS (11 September 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Haha tbh I wouldnt have taken offence. Dressage stuff isnt my area but I do try hard to produce a showjumper who goes well on the flat as I think its important. Even with my illegal tack haha.  I love your ponies! They look like great fun! I want one now 

Click to expand...

Isn't showjumping just dressage with obstacles and more tack?  My highland wears a standing to play horseball, 5 point breast girth for hacking and jumping (for me to cling on to) and a pelham to show.  I don't think my tack choices are any more defensible 

Thanks they are great fun - if you ever want to downsize, go highland


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## Nightmare before Christmas (11 September 2012)

It is a sort of dressage with jumps I guess! Working on flying changes and improving the canter atm! All to make jumping easier  tbh I dont see why you should defend tack anyway  they are our horses that we ride so doesnt really affect anyone else  if I had room for another I would get one to enjoy but my mares come back into work as she failed to get in foal this year so no room for another one


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## PolarSkye (11 September 2012)

JFTD said:



			smiley smiley, what a cute pic 

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Awwwwwwwwwww - thank you .  Em was probably 11 or 12 at the time . . . it was the first time she had ever sat on Nell who had been taken to a local show as company on the lorry for a couple of stressy warmbloods - as a thank you from the owners of the WBs for all Em's help fetching and carrying for them at the show they entered her and Nell in a maxi-cob class . . . hence the get up . . . borrowed and far too big (and incorrect) jacket, dark jods, chaps, and lack of appropriate turnout for the pony . . . but Em and Nell were little stars - Nell cantered beautifully in company and really caught the judge's eye.  He said he couldn't place them b/c of the (lack of) turnout but really rated the pony (he rode her) and thought Em was a tidy rider.  It was a lovely day - and the beginning of a wonderful year with the gorgeous Nelly.  Still miss that pony.

P


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## JFTDWS (11 September 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			Awwwwwwwwwww - thank you .  Em was probably 11 or 12 at the time . . . it was the first time she had ever sat on Nell who had been taken to a local show as company on the lorry for a couple of stressy warmbloods - as a thank you from the owners of the WBs for all Em's help fetching and carrying for them at the show they entered her and Nell in a maxi-cob class . . . hence the get up . . . borrowed and far too big (and incorrect) jacket, dark jods, chaps, and lack of appropriate turnout for the pony . . . but Em and Nell were little stars - Nell cantered beautifully in company and really caught the judge's eye.  He said he couldn't place them b/c of the (lack of) turnout but really rated the pony (he rode her) and thought Em was a tidy rider.  It was a lovely day - and the beginning of a wonderful year with the gorgeous Nelly.  Still miss that pony.

P
		
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Lovely story, PS, sounds like a great little mare!


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## Booboos (11 September 2012)

What an interesting thread! Can I play even though I haven't offered any CC? (for what it's worth I have read the whole thread and I agree with Wagtail's comments).

So....R as a 6 year old







this is an interesting one, same year, it was right at the end of a novice test and I think he was getting tired:







here he was about 8 years old







about 9







about 10







And about 13...who says horses don't improve with age!


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## Wagtail (11 September 2012)

Booboos said:



			What an interesting thread! Can I play even though I haven't offered any CC? (for what it's worth I have read the whole thread and I agree with Wagtail's comments).

So....R as a 6 year old







this is an interesting one, same year, it was right at the end of a novice test and I think he was getting tired:







here he was about 8 years old







about 9







about 10







And about 13...who says horses don't improve with age! 






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Stunning horse, Booboos. And a lovely example of how a green young horse that is on the forehand, matures and is able to lift his front end and work in a very pleasing outline. You are a good rider. If anything you have a tendency to lift your hands a little too high (as in the canter pic) but only very slightly. Your horse looks as though he is working well from behind with an active hind leg. Love his graceful neck!


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## FfionWinnie (11 September 2012)

I like your horse booboos. Wrong colour for me but otherwise looks grand


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## bex1984 (12 September 2012)

JFTD said:



			Lovely story, PS, sounds like a great little mare! 

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I agree, Nelly is gorgeous. 

oooo JFTD your Highland looks lovely!


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## LaurenBay (12 September 2012)

Very proud of Ruby last night.

We went for a hack and bearing this thread in mind, I really tried hard to get her to work from behind and really lift her hinds under her. Didn't fiddle with my reins but kept a contact. She lifted her head high in the trot (she was quite on her toes yesterday as was windy and we were hacking alone!) but once in walk, she really started stepping under and voila she lowered her head. Now it wasn't perfect by any means but it is a step in the right direction. I asked her to keep it for 5 minutes then let her have her head again as she isn't quite strong enough yet to maintain it for a long length and I want to take it slow. 

I had knowone to take a photo though so can't post for CC (although its a shame as there would have been loads to give!)


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## Booboos (12 September 2012)

Many thanks for the CC Wagtail! I know what you mean about the hands! When I look at the photos they look high to me too, but when I ride they feel low (shows you how much of a lack of true feel I have!). He has always found it easy to extend...by loading the forehand, collection doesn't come easy to him, but hopefully we'll have another 6 years to improve!

FfionWinnie: I am cursed, I have had three greys in a row! Everytime I set out to buy any colour but grey and then this happens!


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## KVH (12 September 2012)

Booboos said:



			FfionWinnie: I am cursed, I have had three greys in a row! Everytime I set out to buy any colour but grey and then this happens!
		
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Sounds familiar..


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## Mypinkpony (12 September 2012)

This thread has been so helpful! I really didn't realise how much you can tell by a photo and the couple of pictures i have really arent't quite as nice as i had thought!! I have always known that i have a tendancy to tip forward and straighten my arms but i can also see that the saddle is far too forward and my legs, everything needs to be tilted back. I am having lessons every week now and she has helped soo much but i still struggle with tilting forward no matter how much she corrects me i just slip forward again?  any suggestions? 

I've had to raid his old owners photos and a pic of my friend ridding as i delete all pictures of him like this on my phone as i need no reminding of his head carriage lol so please no crit on the following 2 pics....i just wanted an example of his chosen way to go round the ring 










so thats his head carriage with any contact.

These 2 you can crit as much as you wish.... this is me in my lessons with him trying my very best to get him behind my leg...and it's bloody hard work!











He has no backend muscle and its so hard to build it as i find it near on impossible to get him working it! he's improved a tad as when i got him 8 months ago he's just been chilling in a field for a couple of years with the odd hack....this is the day i got him!






P.s so sorry for the huge photos i have no idea how to make them smaller....


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## dafthoss (12 September 2012)

Go on then I'm prepared to be told that we are useless (well I am, pony is quite capable but blimin aqward about it). He has a horses body and pony legs so tracking up isnt easy for him and I have a tendancy to hunch from riding several small ponies that will try to have me off occasionally and drop my hands which I cant find a reason for but it really annoys me in photos.

this is last summer






last winter after an autumn and winter of just hacking






lesson this spring


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## Wagtail (12 September 2012)

MyPinkPony, You have a major battle on your hands I see. The photo of him the day he arrived shows a horse that is built massively down hill and with a ewe neck. It looks as though you have managed to put a bit of top line on that neck but he is still very down hill. Your saddle does not look a good fit on him (possibly too wide?) and is tipping you forwards quite badly. This will not be helping things! In fact, you can see how the saddle lifts right up at the back. It is also too far forward. You are also very stiff through your arms and are fixing your hands downwards, probably in an attempt to keep his head down? Fix the saddle problems and I think you will have an easier time of it.


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## Wagtail (12 September 2012)

Dafthoss, I love your pony. He looks really content and listening to you in all of the photographs. I am not too fussed that ALL horses have to track up. Some are just not built that way. He is moving forwards well and that is what counts. Regarding your position, you are right that you do slump a little bit and allow your back to round. This results in your core weakening and your legs riding up a little. Try stretching your back upwards and sinking your weight into your heels. You also need to carry your hands a little as there is a slight break in the line from your elbow to the bit in some of the photos. All in all though, you are working your pony really well.


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## Mypinkpony (12 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			MyPinkPony, You have a major battle on your hands I see. The photo of him the day he arrived shows a horse that is built massively down hill and with a ewe neck. It looks as though you have managed to put a bit of top line on that neck but he is still very down hill. Your saddle does not look a good fit on him (possibly too wide?) and is tipping you forwards quite badly. This will not be helping things! In fact, you can see how the saddle lifts right up at the back. It is also too far forward. You are also very stiff through your arms and are fixing your hands downwards, probably in an attempt to keep his head down? Fix the saddle problems and I think you will have an easier time of it.
		
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Thanks Wagtail! It's the biggest battle ever lol I just put a XC photo thread up... you can see just how 'special' he is lol

I had the saddle re-flocked about 2 weeks ago, long after all these pics and he said exactly as you did that it tilts forward so he has stuffted it out at the front and said it will do for now, won't cause him any pain, just not ideal for me and to save up for a new one.


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## Minstrel_Ted (12 September 2012)

Can I ask for some CC, 5 year old clydesdale, doing prelim out and about, aim to attempt a novice late 2012 early 2013.





















He does go behind the vertical at times but tends to go in front of it, there is no forcing what I do in my lessons is ask him to drop with my outside hand, he drops down gets rewarded, ask him to hold for a few strides which he does, and now as he is getting stronger he is holding it for much longer then he did originally. Hope that makes sense. I do go relatively tense at competition and tend to display my worst riding!! 

Those links don't appear to have worked on my machine so just in case
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87118888@N02/7979276866/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87118888@N02/7979277600/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87118888@N02/7979276325/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87118888@N02/7979276325/in/photostream


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## Wagtail (12 September 2012)

Minstrel_Ted said:



			Can I ask for some CC, 5 year old clydesdale, doing prelim out and about, aim to attempt a novice late 2012 early 2013.





















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Have tried to get photos to show.

I do not envy you riding a HW at dressage. They are often quite hard work. The nicest photograph IMO is the canter one. Yo sit quite well and your contact looks nice. There is a slight tendeny in some of the photographs to fix your hands downwards, but not badly. You maintain a nice bend in your elbow and your reins ar a perfect length. You do have a tendency to bring your heel up when your leg is on. This may either be because you are gripping up with your knees, or that you are not transferring enough weight into the heel, either due to habit or your stirrups being a hole too long. Your lovely horse is moving quite well, but is on his forehand and dragging his quarters along slightly in one of the pics.


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## Cortez (12 September 2012)

MPP, as someone else has said, you are fighting with this horse's conformation as much as anything else, with a low front end, weak loin, upside down and badly placed neck and straight hind legs I don't think you could have chosen a worse horse for dressage! So well done you for trying to "fix" him. Unfortunately doing things like you are doing in the 3rd picture will not help - this only puts more presure on the lower bars of the horse's mouth and your arms are locked almost completely straight so there can be no give from you at all. The first 2 pictures are pretty horrific - why do you think he was doing this?

Oh, and just to add - why are you trying to get him "behind" your leg? The rest of us are striving as hard as we can to get them in front of ours!


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## Amaranta (12 September 2012)

Minstrel_Ted said:



			Can I ask for some CC, 5 year old clydesdale, doing prelim out and about, aim to attempt a novice late 2012 early 2013.





















He does go behind the vertical at times but tends to go in front of it, there is no forcing what I do in my lessons is ask him to drop with my outside hand, he drops down gets rewarded, ask him to hold for a few strides which he does, and now as he is getting stronger he is holding it for much longer then he did originally. Hope that makes sense. I do go relatively tense at competition and tend to display my worst riding!! 

Those links don't appear to have worked on my machine so just in case
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87118888@N02/7979276866/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87118888@N02/7979277600/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87118888@N02/7979276325/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87118888@N02/7979276325/in/photostream

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Actually I absolutely love him, he looks to have lovely active paces and cannot agree that he is trailing his hindquarters, he does have an active canter but is actually btv in this picture.  He has a big powerful front but you have him going forward in general, lots and lots of transitions will help him lift that front and, as long as you are forward he won't go btv.

I suspect he will do very well at Novice, some judges may not like him but personally I look at how a horse is moving for his type rather than how flashy the paces are, you see a lot of flashy but incorrect paces and your chap seems to be very correct.  I would expect any horse at prelim to be on his forehand slightly (imho he is not terribly so anyway), I would like to see him a little(and only a very little) more in self carriage for novice, but still think he will do very well.


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## siennamum (12 September 2012)

Minstrel_Ted said:



			Can I ask for some CC, 5 year old clydesdale, doing prelim out and about, aim to attempt a novice late 2012 early 2013.





















He does go behind the vertical at times but tends to go in front of it, there is no forcing what I do in my lessons is ask him to drop with my outside hand, he drops down gets rewarded, ask him to hold for a few strides which he does, and now as he is getting stronger he is holding it for much longer then he did originally. Hope that makes sense. I do go relatively tense at competition and tend to display my worst riding!! 

He is seriously nice and looks like he could do a really good test.

He is really powerful & active (as is my youngster) and you do all the things that I also do which don't neccessarily help him. You perch a bit and fix your hands, which blocks all that fantastic energy. You especially fix your inside hand and that is a cardinal sin. I would aim to really support all that energy with your outside hand to give him plenty of consistency to work with, he has a lot going on in the back leg department and needs to feel confident enough to really stretch into a supporting contact. If your thumb isn't on top and your hands are on the pommel you won't have a sufficiently elastic contact to give him that confidence. Reward with the inside rein, see if you can start to have slack in it.
He is stunning though & how uphill is he!
		
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## Minstrel_Ted (12 September 2012)

Thanks folks  He does have a really active hind end. I think I am probably gripping with my knees, its an old habit since I damaged my knee x country but I am getting much better, at times I think I might try spurs even dummys as for some reason when they are on I am more aware of my heel and lower leg and its position. I have backed him and worked with him myself so I am always happy to listen to any advice, he tends to get mid 60s for his dressage at prelim. I used to keep my hands at my belly button but was told by an instructor to lower them to give him a space to move out into. But as I said I am always much more tense at comps which are where those pictures were taken.

I find the biggest way to get him to lift his front more in the canter is asking him to really open up, I do it occasionally in the school and the canter then really comes up in front. I have patiently waited for him to find his own carriage and I know there is still longer to wait but he is about to have a little break for 2 weeks and will then pick up to go to the petplan arenas. Medium trot is a work in progress, he can hold about 3 strides and then he forges and so I half halt.

As I said any help is much appreciated, and thank you for your kind words


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## Holly Hocks (12 September 2012)

I would not offer any comments on riding as unless something sticks out like a sore thumb I wouldn't feel qualified to comment, but just one comment

Dafthoss - out of all the pics of horses that have been posted yours is just absolutely gorgeous - my absolute favourite  (after my own of course! )


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## dressagelove (12 September 2012)

I worry about my ability to get a horse into an outline, because my lad just 'does' it, he has such natural carriage, even on the lunge with no side reins, he goes in an outline. I am very fortunate, but it will be interesting to see when I break in my youngster in a few years whether I actually can ride or whether my current lad spoils me!

This is he: Any comments and CC for me too pleeeease ?


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## ClassicG&T (12 September 2012)

With my pony i was told to get him straight, steady rhythem, listening to me and not running away when i used my leg. Also lots of circles and leg yield and shoulder in. This took 2 years, then eventually we got a lovely outline and he was lovely to ride. 

With my youngster i am told to get him of my leg, straight, a good active rhythem and responding to my leg and not taking it as "faster" but also move over or bend round on corners. I must achieve all of them before i can get a soft outline. I also lunge him with a pessoa and lungie bungie to  get him using his back and hind more. We are getting there but patience is essential.


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## TigerTail (12 September 2012)

DL are you still using a flash? I really see no need for it  He looks relaxed enough in all the pics not to be needing it. 

 You have a lovely stable leg position, Need to think about keeping eyes up more to help you not to round your shoulders and reaching forwards with your hands. I think you are also collapsing your rib cage so think about an elastic bungee coming out of the top of your hat, you want to be flexible to absorb the movement but not bent like a banana!


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## Mypinkpony (12 September 2012)

Cortez said:



			MPP, as someone else has said, you are fighting with this horse's conformation as much as anything else, with a low front end, weak loin, upside down and badly placed neck and straight hind legs I don't think you could have chosen a worse horse for dressage! So well done you for trying to "fix" him. Unfortunately doing things like you are doing in the 3rd picture will not help - this only puts more presure on the lower bars of the horse's mouth and your arms are locked almost completely straight so there can be no give from you at all. The first 2 pictures are pretty horrific - why do you think he was doing this?

Oh, and just to add - why are you trying to get him "behind" your leg? The rest of us are striving as hard as we can to get them in front of ours!
		
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LOL i meant in front ha ha sorry......
I know i couldn't of got a worse project but he's such a sweet horse and free schooled he's got the most amazing paces i have ever seen, tack him up and he's a different horse  so frustrating! He's has the potential to be amazing but he has clearly been ruined along the line somewhere between the age of 4-7.... he's 11 now and has been that way since his old owner got him. I know i locked my arms, i saw it after in the picture but it was the first EVER time i managed him to lower so just got too excited prob lol but he's better now and so am i but i do still tilt forward  Dressage isn't my thing but ODE is what i want to do so hence working so hard on it! He's full loan view to buy, but i can only buy him if i see proof that he can change, he's got slightly better but miles to go... As for why he's doing it? not sure, it's kinda a evasion from him, he's has the most fabulous  under neck muscle and you can't beat it(and he knows that), just trying my best to weaken it but i'm fighting against 11 years of him running round like a lama!


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## FfionWinnie (12 September 2012)

Booboos said:



			FfionWinnie: I am cursed, I have had three greys in a row! Everytime I set out to buy any colour but grey and then this happens!
		
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Lol. My last horse was a grey but still quite black while I had her. Put her on loan and she came back very faded


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## FfionWinnie (13 September 2012)

Mpp your horse looks quite angry in all the pics. Have you ruled out pain for this behaviour?  It looks like you are improving him but just wondering why he is so tricky under saddle.


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## Mypinkpony (13 September 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			Mpp your horse looks quite angry in all the pics. Have you ruled out pain for this behaviour?  It looks like you are improving him but just wondering why he is so tricky under saddle.
		
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 I wish i knew, so frustrating 
Well when his owners got him 3 years ago (he's been on full loan to me for 8 months) he had a back problem from a badly fitting saddle but had shockwaves therapy and has a chiropractor every year since to check, i also book him in for a massage every 2/3 months so there shouldn't be anything bothering him, teeth were done about 2 months ago, saddle 2 weeks ago? i think it's habit and expecting pain and reacting even when its not there.


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## LollyDolly (13 September 2012)

Hi there. I'm afraid you are fighting a losing battle with this one. Not due to a lack of ability, but because there is no way your pony will be able to work well when your saddle is far too small for you and you are sitting on the cantle! On the contrary, all your weight is being concentrated on the weakest part of his back. You will certainly cause back problems if you continue. Problem is, the saddle looks too narrow as it is tipping you back and compounding the problem. Even if you got a saddle wide enough for him, it would still be too short for you as he cannot take a longer saddle. Really sorry to have to tell you this, but I see a massive back problem in the future, and it is shouting out at me through that picture. I had to say something!
		
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Eek I am shocked that I didn't notice this!!
Truth be told I do find that me knees come over the flaps, hence why I push myself back 

What shocks me the most though is that it was David from Village Saddlery (Master Saddlers) who fitted this for me and I haven't changed a bit since! 
I think that someone will be getting a phonecall tomorrow 

Any idea's for other saddlers in Cheshire who are good while I'm at it?

Admittedly my back does look terrible in that shot


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## FfionWinnie (13 September 2012)

Your saddle does look horrendously uncomfy for you lolly. 

I had a similar issue with my 16.2 tbx a few years ago. The saddler I used told me she couldn't have bigger than a 16.5 inch saddle. I am nearly 5ft 8...  It was always a crap fit for me. New pony is 13.1 with a 17.5 inch saddle on because I used a very good fitter who could think outside the box (different saddles are different in terms of actual length compared to seat size if that makes sense)


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## dressagelove (13 September 2012)

TigerTail said:



			DL are you still using a flash? I really see no need for it  He looks relaxed enough in all the pics not to be needing it. 

 You have a lovely stable leg position, Need to think about keeping eyes up more to help you not to round your shoulders and reaching forwards with your hands. I think you are also collapsing your rib cage so think about an elastic bungee coming out of the top of your hat, you want to be flexible to absorb the movement but not bent like a banana!
		
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Thanks TT! Actually no, these pics are from last summer and I am minus a flash now  still put it on occasionally, but generally its off.

Thanks re the the position too, that has been our general conclusions and I am working on exactly what you said  I should post some up to date pics to see if I have improved...


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## shortstuff99 (13 September 2012)

This thread has been really interesting and I'm going to brave putting up a pic of one of my horses and me! Just for some information the pony I am riding in these pics is 25 years old so please dont be too hard on him!  I would just like to have some views on my position what we look like etc, as a lot of the time I school on my own so don't really get much CC from the ground.


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## shortstuff99 (13 September 2012)

Wow the first pic came out huge! I will try to re-size!

I couldn't re-size so I've deleted it


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## Wagtail (13 September 2012)

Mypinkpony said:



			I wish i knew, so frustrating 
Well when his owners got him 3 years ago (he's been on full loan to me for 8 months) he had a back problem from a badly fitting saddle but had shockwaves therapy and has a chiropractor every year since to check, i also book him in for a massage every 2/3 months so there shouldn't be anything bothering him, teeth were done about 2 months ago, saddle 2 weeks ago? i think it's habit and expecting pain and reacting even when its not there. 

Click to expand...

I have to say, even after your saddle has been reflocked (ref the xc pics) it is a terrible fit. Have another look at the xc pics and see how the whole saddle is lifting away from his back as you are falling off. Can you imagine the amount of discomfort this must be causing him with a rider's weight on board? I really would not be riding him at all until you get a well fitting saddle. I actually think it is quite dangerous for the both of you. I think you will find he is a different horse if you can get it sorted. In the meantime I would just be lunging him in a pessoa or a chambon to get him stretching down and working over his back.


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