# Head is spinning! Reverse Pedal bone rotation can anyone offer advice or experiance?



## Ladylina83 (5 January 2012)

Hi there everyone - refreshments may be needed before you make yourselves comfy 

My head is spinning a little bit at the moment as just had xrays done on my 19 year old princess TBx . She has been a lame for 4 weeks now which coincided with being shod although she wasn't quite right on a circle before that but I put that down to her needing her feet doing. 

Farrier came on 5th December replaced fronts and did trim, she's just in fronts - natural balance. She came in from the field and all 4 feet were like hot coals, you could feel it through fleece gloves. I gave her an emergency danilon which calmed things but was very pottery and very reluctant to turn.  Farrier came back out and checked her said no Lami ( ?? ) and sound. at this point I decided to box rest her after a week of this it became clear that I was actully killing myself having 2 horse on 2 yards 1 being on box rest working full time and planning Christmas! So I moved her back from the yard she had been with indoor etc as it was clear I wasn't going to be needing them. I have to be honest and I thought farrier had just taken too much foot off and she just needed some time. 

I called my vet on 21st December, who said a bute a day and complete rest, which my little horse obliged too willingly with this rain we have been having. She improved along the way and showed sound on the straight but not on the turn so decided it was time to bite the bullet and get the vet ( I didn't want bad news, I buried my head in the sand a little )

So Vet came this morning bringing along a second opinion + student and xray machine.

we did walk and trot up on yard and she showed something not quite right but both said only just 1/10th on left fore, Lunged in school on circle again 1/10th mainly on left, lunged on tight circle on yard hoping lame on both fore legs !!!! 

Now she's not insured, my gut told me there is something going on in the foot so lets xray rather than block and then xray, I can afford the treatment admittedly it is going to come out of my house deposit fund but the money is there. 

Xrays showed brilliant joint condition for a gg of her age who has worked for her living I admit which surprised me and them too I think, some changes to the fetlock on the right and the pastern on the left which was the worst but not debilitating. What they did show was her pedal bone is reverse rotated, I haven't come across this before, we are all so fixated on it going the other darn way. She is more upright on the inside wall and flared on the outside which is causing unbalance and the shoe is not supporting the heal despite there being a lot of toe removed and the shoe set back. They would like to treat with graduated heart bars and remedial farriery as soon as possible which is a bit of a pain as my guy is on holiday until the 20th Jan in Australia, I dont want to change. Now ...


... For 4 years my girl had been barefoot before having shoes put on in July this year as she was feeling every stone on the yard and was looking painfully poor due to me being afraid to feed her thinking lami ! Obviously all this time it wasn't lami but I can't get my head away from thinking like a barefooter !! Ie Heartbars BAD wedges BAD and that the foot needs to be able to expand and contract. 

Has anyone else had experience of this before or could offer me advice ?? I know its not the end of the world but not sure what to do next.


I will add xray pictures later on when I get home for those that are interested as work PC will not let me download the software to view them

any comment appreciated - sorry for rambling just wanted to get it all out, I hope it makes sense


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## Amymay (5 January 2012)

They would like to treat with graduated heart bars and remedial farriery as soon as possible which is a bit of a pain as my guy is on holiday until the 20th Jan in Australia, I don&#8217;t want to change. Now ...
		
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My horse was discovered to have this problem.  Essentially it's all down to poor foot balance over a period of time.

My excellent farrier shod the horse using the x-rays for referral, and the horse was put in bar shoes, not heart bar or graduated (which you do have to be careful with).

Problem solved almost immediately.


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## Ladylina83 (5 January 2012)

Really? Thanks Amymay I value your opinion !

Obviously I do not blame my farrier, he doesn't have x ray eyes after all - I've just never come across it before did you ever encounter any other related problems ? how old was your horse ??


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## Amymay (5 January 2012)

Ladylina83 said:



			Really? Thanks Amymay I value your opinion !
		
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No problem.

The horse in question went very lame overnight two months after I'd bought him, and the vet came up and x-rayed that very day.  He went from hopping to virtually sound after the shoeing a day later.  I couldn't believe it.  I was back on board within a few days, and he was fine.

He was shod very carefully from then on - but essentially was fine.


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## Ladylina83 (5 January 2012)

So now I need to decide do I swap farrier or wait nearly 3 weeks with my girl in pain for Bob to get back from his jollies ?? He's due to me on 23rd Jan 

There is no point getting someone else to take this on as a one off it needs continuity !


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## Amymay (5 January 2012)

Ladylina83 said:



			So now I need to decide do I swap farrier or wait nearly 3 weeks with my girl in pain for Bob to get back from his jollies ?? He's due to me on 23rd Jan 

There is no point getting someone else to take this on as a one off it needs continuity !
		
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You need to treat this as a virtual emergency.  Your vet will be able to recommend a farrier for you to use.  I certainly would not wait 3 weeks until my farrier came back of holidays to have her shod.....


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## ester (5 January 2012)

Hi, 

Frank's xrays showed the similar thing back in november, lameish on near fore. Poss shortness of stride for a month or so before hand (put down to his age and stiffness) but def went from sound to lame quite quickly

near fore






heels are underun and sound on nerve blocking back of the feet. Off fore xray much the same


He has had normal bar shoes on for the last 5 weeks with field rest and we have tried to improve the foot balance, but that is slipping again now and he has not been any sounder with them on. Going in to block the joint on Monday and re evaluate, am still considering the poss of barefooting him but decided to try this first for a few reasons. 

If you are on fb and would like access to all of Franks foot pics you are welcome. 

in your position I think I would ask vet for a farrier at least you can start to see if they may help or not then.


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## Ladylina83 (5 January 2012)

Can I please ? I'll pm you - it would be good to keep in touch to see how they are getting on. 

I'll show you at some point but my x rays clearly show the show is not supporting the back of the hoof on the traditional ratio %front to back they are more like 50 50


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## frannieuk (5 January 2012)

My 7yo mare was diagnosed with counter rotated pedal bones last year, following a minor lameness in the NF - Xrays showed that all 4 pedal bones were counter rotated but the NF was the worst. My farrier is a remedial farrier anyway, and the vet also agreed that her feet looked perfectly balanced from the outside!

Vet conclusion was that it was congenital in this case. Following his consultation with my farrier, they decided that the heart bars etc weren't an option in this case, but that we'd try remedial trimming. They also suspected that the lameness was due to a minor strain to the DDFT or suspensory due to the additional strain posed on these due to the pedal bone. It could also have been an unlucky strain unrelated to the pedal bones!

Vet was quite pessimistic about the outcome, but 9 months on (mainly to allow the strain to heal), the mare is fully fit and out competing at BS! I have her shod every 5 weeks, and if you were to look at the trimming, you'd think she was over shortened, but the X-rays show the bones are where they should be. I will have her X-rayed periodically with the farrier to make sure that things are where they should be.

In my experience, with a good vet and farrier who will work together, there are plenty of options available to manage this and get good results! Good luck!!


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## popularfurball (5 January 2012)

I can't offer much help as like you previously thought, I have more problems with them going the other way!

I would be changing farrier... Partly as I wOuldnt want to wait and partly that I would be concerened he couldn't tell you she was lame when you already knew she was - regardless of cause.

I'm not entirely sure what egg bars would offer you over natural balance shoes but Im not that up on my shoes - just know if mine had shoes I would prefer natural balance.
I hope you get her sorted!


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## Andalucian (5 January 2012)

Sage advice from Moorman as usual - listen to him.

Whatever you do, change your farrier and get it done now.  Any good farrier should be able to tell you if the pedal bones are counter rotated (and sort it out) - a trained eye can read the foot and see this without x-rays.  

Barefoot is the best way to resolve this, but I hear your issues with stones when you tried it before.


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## Ladylina83 (5 January 2012)

here are the x rays 

right fore 











and the left ! 












Any more thoughts or comments ??


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## brucea (6 January 2012)

It would be very interesting to see what would happen with this horse if you took the shoes off and turned away for 6 months to let her feet recover.


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## Ladylina83 (6 January 2012)

brucea said:



			It would be very interesting to see what would happen with this horse if you took the shoes off and turned away for 6 months to let her feet recover.
		
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other than her coming back the size of a house  I think this has been going on a long time - longer than she has been shod to be honest, leaning towards perhaps she does need a bit of help, that left is clearly worse than the right and the whole time she was barefoot she flared a lot on that foot


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## Perissa (6 January 2012)

frannieuk said:



			My 7yo mare was diagnosed with counter rotated pedal bones last year, following a minor lameness in the NF - Xrays showed that all 4 pedal bones were counter rotated but the NF was the worst. My farrier is a remedial farrier anyway, and the vet also agreed that her feet looked perfectly balanced from the outside!

Vet conclusion was that it was congenital in this case. Following his consultation with my farrier, they decided that the heart bars etc weren't an option in this case, but that we'd try remedial trimming. They also suspected that the lameness was due to a minor strain to the DDFT or suspensory due to the additional strain posed on these due to the pedal bone. It could also have been an unlucky strain unrelated to the pedal bones!

In my experience, with a good vet and farrier who will work together, there are plenty of options available to manage this and get good results! Good luck!!
		
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 "My farrier is a remedial farrier anyway, and the vet also agreed that her feet looked perfectly balanced from the outside"

I am so glad you said that.  My horse also has counter rotation in both hind feet.  His 'symptom' was that he started to disunite in canter.  He had everything checked out the the vet suggested xraying his feet really as a last resort and hey presto there it was.  He was shod in graduated shoes as we were due to compete at the National Championship's and after that was shod with NB's.

At no point were his feet unbalanced on the outside.  I was critised on here by some that said he must have had long toes and underrun heels - he didn't!!  His main problem is that his feet are too small for his height.  He is 16hh yet takes a size 00 NB shoe.

OP- Not allowing the feet to become long and regular 5 week shoeing and your horse should be fine.

Mine is competing in ridden showing at National level......


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## Ladylina83 (6 January 2012)

Thank you, turns out this isn't as rare as i thought, It is a comfort to hear of all your experiences.

Perissa- and what a pretty boy he is too !


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## brucea (6 January 2012)

that left is clearly worse than the right and the whole time she was barefoot she flared a lot on that foot
		
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And that is where the barefoot folks would be asking "why" - what is that flare supporting and what happens if you take it away? 

Ask if it is flare (separation of the wall) or deviation (WL is good but the hoof "spreads" in that direction.

One of my geldings has a deviation on the inside of a back hoof where is is supporting his spavin - it comes and goes as his spavin is more or less bothersome.

Have a look on Nic Barker's blog - there are a lot of posts about asymmetry and how it can at times be essential for support.

And as for coming back the size of a house - turning away does not mean mismanaging the diet  That's an ongoing project.


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## Oberon (6 January 2012)

brucea said:



			And that is where the barefoot folks would be asking "why" - what is that flare supporting and what happens if you take it away? 

Ask if it is flare (separation of the wall) or deviation (WL is good but the hoof "spreads" in that direction.

One of my geldings has a deviation on the inside of a back hoof where is is supporting his spavin - it comes and goes as his spavin is more or less bothersome.

Have a look on Nic Barker's blog - there are a lot of posts about asymmetry and how it can at times be essential for support.

And as for coming back the size of a house - turning away does not mean mismanaging the diet  That's an ongoing project.
		
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Agree. 

Hope you get the horse sorted.

If the shoes didn't help the situation then it would be worth reviewing what the primary problem was and trying to fix that.

I'm rather disappointed that whomever trimmed your horse when it was BF didn't provide you with more advice and support on diet.


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## Andalucian (6 January 2012)

Wonderful quality xrays, nice job.  I can see a good depth of sole at the toe of these feet.  If you lower the toe, you in effect raise the angle of the pedal bone and that's what's needed here.  I hope that gives you an idea.


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## .x.Lauren.x. (6 January 2012)

My 11yo mare has been diagnosed with this exact thing! We didn't even notice she was lame until I physio spotted a slight lameness on a tight circle (she was completely sound straight) So we had xrays and it is De-rotated pedal bones. They suggested all these heart bar/ wedged shoes but we came across a remedial farrier and trusted him in that he said all she needed was correct shoeing... threee shoeings later and shes sound! all it needed was the shoe setting back to give more support to the heel- the vets said a shoe should be 50/50 either side of the pedal bone. 

A good farrier should be enough to sort your horse out


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## Ladylina83 (6 January 2012)

Oberon said:



			Agree. 

Hope you get the horse sorted.

If the shoes didn't help the situation then it would be worth reviewing what the primary problem was and trying to fix that.

I'm rather disappointed that whomever trimmed your horse when it was BF didn't provide you with more advice and support on diet.
		
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Out of interest , where am I going wrong with her diet ? she gets HIFI mol free a tiny amount of watery sugarbeet which just covers the bottom of a bucket and this muliti vit http://www.maxavita.com/products/pet/multivitamin/ + MaxaFlex for her joints and all important Hay, in summer she got hay and a mineral lick and nibbled at the ground which is surely the most natural diet there is ? My trimmer was happy with this and I regularly asked for advice I also muzzeled her as I was so paranoid about her tender feet



Andalucian said:



			Wonderful quality xrays, nice job.  I can see a good depth of sole at the toe of these feet.  If you lower the toe, you in effect raise the angle of the pedal bone and that's what's needed here.  I hope that gives you an idea.
		
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I can't stop looking at them to be honest, well woth paying for !! when you say lower the toe you mean trim more off that area and less off the back ?? or am I being to simplistic ?? When you say good depth do you mean do danger of pedal bone coming through the sole ? 

He sore soles have dated to before I got her I have been informed today


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## moorman (6 January 2012)

First I would like to compliment whoever took the x-rays, you would not believe the amount of times I am sent a picture of a black cat on a coal cellar with its eyes shut, and then asked to give a prognoses. 
A couple of things that I would like to comment on that may be of some help.
Number one: the point of break/over (that is the point at which the weight of the front foot is being transferred  to the most forward part of the wall in motion)  may well be improved by either setting it back further in the shoe, or if going barefoot putting a roll in the toe that would not be counter to the horn production.
I would like to say at this point that the farrier has put a roll in the toe of the shoe which I commend him/her for, I see far to many shoes that have no roll in the toe at all.
Point two: I feel the main problem that I am looking at is the general weakness in the caudal (rear)1/3 of both feet, and if that section of both feet was to improve so would the angle of the whole hoof
On the evidence presented  I would choose the approach of getting the horse to effect the cure itself. through diet, conditions (working/ resting surfaces) and maybe very little trimming  
This of course would mean going barefoot with the correct management, a decision that must not be made lightly, there are endless people out there who will be right behind you, unfortunately there will also be people usually right in front of you that will accuse you of neglect.
In the past when I was choosing shoeing as a method of treatment and was presented with a Contra rotated foot I have had success with a shoe I called a short tongued hart bar, the fitting of which has to be very accurate as to where the tong ends in order to support the DF tendon.
Since changing to barefoot I have to admit that the barefoot method has proved to be more effective and longer lasting.
What ever you choose to do I wish you all the luck in the world, and you must be very reassured by the x-rays regarding the feet in general.


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## Oberon (6 January 2012)

Ladylina83 said:



			Out of interest , where am I going wrong with her diet ? she gets HIFI mol free a tiny amount of watery sugarbeet which just covers the bottom of a bucket and this muliti vit http://www.maxavita.com/products/pet/multivitamin/ + MaxaFlex for her joints and all important Hay, in summer she got hay and a mineral lick and nibbled at the ground which is surely the most natural diet there is ? My trimmer was happy with this and I regularly asked for advice I also muzzeled her as I was so paranoid about her tender feet
		
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The red flags to me are when you said that she's been footy for a while when barefoot with some flaring - which led to the shoeing and the current problems.

If the trimmer wasn't paring the sole or trimming while drunk...the footiness had to come from somewhere and so I'd consider the diet to be the original problem. 

The diet you have listed sounds very appropriate. It may be your horse is just a bit more difficult than the average horse and needs the diet to be 'just so'.






 It's just my theory, you understand and I may well be talking out of my ass

I've got my fingers crossed for you both.


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## Ladylina83 (6 January 2012)

I've been thinking about it and I went barefoot in the spring of 2007, a lot of the time she was great especially with road work but after fun rides on multi surfaces etc she would go sore for weeks, I always thought it was sugar sensitivity but now I think it was concussion made worse by foot confirmation


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## Ladylina83 (6 January 2012)

..silly phone , just to add I did a lot of reading before going barefoot and it was a difficult decision to go back to shoes but I literally gave up after years of trying:-(  in the early days her diet was worse and her feet better, I can't explain that , last summer was the final straw we couldn't do anything - I really was evangelical about  it all hence me hating the idea of bar shoes .

Moorman thanks for your comments, they are really helpful


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## Oberon (6 January 2012)

Hey - you've got to do what you think is best for your horse. Barefooters and shod owners can all agree on that. Good Luck.


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## moorman (6 January 2012)

Going down the 'shod route' is absolutely fine, all I wish is that you have a great team around your horse who are all pulling in the right direction.
And no matter what other way feel, the Vet is the one in charge, your job is to delegate the job of treating your horse to a vet that is willing to use all knowledge at their disposal to get him right.
Should help be needed I have loads of people who can be called on for advise so please feel free to contact any time.
Good Luck


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## Ladylina83 (6 January 2012)

Thankyou , I really just want my baby to be better I'm that stumped with this I almost want someone to make the decision for me  .... And to drag my ruddy farrier back from Aus now  !! 

Thanks again everyone all of this has helped x


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## Andalucian (8 January 2012)

Ladylina83 said:



			I can't stop looking at them to be honest, well woth paying for !! when you say lower the toe you mean trim more off that area and less off the back ?? or am I being to simplistic ?? When you say good depth do you mean do danger of pedal bone coming through the sole ?
		
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Along with the other good diet advice, to kick start the reversal of this rotation I would take him barefoot, lower the toe plane a bit (yes I don't think its in danger of coming through the sole) but then to counteract this lowering, I'd wrap the foot in hoofwraps to protect the sole from damage/tenderness.  I'd repeat this process until you had gained some heel height and derotation, then reassess his care at that point.

Good luck with him.


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## Harley122 (13 January 2012)

I am experiencing the same problem as you at the moment. 

My horse was diagnosed with reverse rotation to both front pedal bones last June after he jumped out of his field.  He has since had graduated heart bars fitted in attempt to correct the rotation, however the vet said these could only be used for a short period of time due to the concussion through the heel caused by the graduation.  Since having the shoes fitted there has been an improvement in both feet but not as much in the left.  He is sound at the moment, but the vet wants to change him back into a heart bar with no graduation to stop the concussion.  Both the vet and farrier are working together to try to find the best way to correct the problem.  At the moment it looks like they are going to try to do this by trimming his toe back further and possibly thinning the toe area, however this may change depening on what they decide next time he is shod.  The vets have said that he is being well shod and we are making sure that he is re-shod every 5 weeks.  Also my horse grows very little heel.

I would stay with the vet and farriers you know will listen to you


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## Andalucian (14 January 2012)

I really hope Harley122 comes back and reads this Moorman, its very well balanced and thought provoking, in fact I hope all horse owners read it!


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