# Why are horses so cheap?



## Theocat (10 January 2016)

Just a musing, based on another thread, where the OP has posted three videos of young horses for sale, at £4k, £5.5k and £6.5k. The consensus on the thread is that they aren't world beaters and some are overpriced.

Given that it costs, what, £4-5k to breed a foal and keep it to age four (H&H estimates £8k+), and probably another grand if you want to send it away to be started professionally, surely about £5-6k is the very least we should be expecting to pay for a five or six year old capable of being an RC all rounder type - more for anything with potential to do well?

Once a horse is older, you can expect value to start to decrease, if things go wrong or it's being resold from one hobbyist /amateur rider to another who isn't recouping anything, but for reasonable quality young horses, which have had time and money invested in getting them to that stage, why aren't we expecting to pay more? 

I understand the market is what the market is - I'm just not sure WHY the market has prices the way they are. If you're selling something at 4/5/6, presumably it was generally bred to sell - so why are so many people taking a loss to produce horses for the rest of us?


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## be positive (10 January 2016)

I said they were not overpriced for what they were, if they were potential world beaters they would have another 0 on the price and be snapped up, I cannot understand how people can produce nice youngsters and be expected to let them go for less than the cost of producing them no wonder so many small breeders have given up. 
I paid £3k for a 6 year old  30 years ago, he was sold to me at half his value by friends, if he were around now he should be worth significantly more in line with inflation but the reality is that most people would still expect to buy him for under the £6k he was valued at, I think it is due to the bottom end being so low, it pulls the mid range prices down to an unrealistic level.


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## Bernster (10 January 2016)

No answer but I feel the same. I used to think hho horses tended to be the more expensive ones, but I regularly see adverts on here priced for lower than I'd expect, going by the description. 

There are obviously the exceptions for top priced comp horses but otherwise I'd say horses are cheaper now then they used to be, by a considerable margin, it seems like a long term trend. 

Presumably a lot to do with (all?) market demand, too many horses, not enough buyers.  I don't think it's due to the underlying costs being cheaper as overheads if anything are probably higher now.


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## stormox (10 January 2016)

Very few  breeders make money on the horses they breed. Most do it  for the love of horses, love of their breed, and, also, like the thrill of lotto, and there is the million to one chance you might breed a word-beater,which,even if it didnt bring you a fortune,would bring immense satisfaction  seeing it compete on the world stage.


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## Goldenstar (10 January 2016)

Horses are cheap because of supply in the bottom and middle market there's lots of supply .
At the top end supply is limited and therefore prices are higher.


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## popsdosh (10 January 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Horses are cheap because of supply in the bottom and middle market there's lots of supply .
At the top end supply is limited and therefore prices are higher.
		
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To breed the top end horses its a fact of life you have to breed many bottom and middle class horses im afraid, we do our best not too! Hey its a lottery but certainly you have a better chance starting with the right parents.


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## Cortez (10 January 2016)

One word: amateurs. People who do it for the love of it. Horses are a hobby for the vast majority, and people do not generally make money out of a hobby.


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## gallopingby (10 January 2016)

Because there are too many poor examples about BUT most people these days can't tell the difference between good and bad conformation and movement. Unfortunately many people see them as dispensable - sometimes they are sold cheaply because they are on an expensive livery yard and its easier to cut the lose and sell than keep paying livery. Also now its easy to become an instant expert due in some part to the internet and FB. For example someone will post a photo of a horse and there are then many comments saying how nice it is - rarely do you see an objective comment. I frequently have to sit on my hands when photos of hugely overtopped youngsters appear often looking more like stallions than mares - but who would be brave enough to post the truth!!


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## rachk89 (10 January 2016)

I think it's possibly due to the fact as well that people know they don't have to pay that much for a horse anymore. You can go to an auction and get them for a couple of hundred if you are lucky. Racehorses going for cheap prices probably hasn't helped either especially since many do well in a new career. 

Presentation of a horse helps though.  We paid 3 grand for my horse and he is worth more easily, not even me that says that the majority of the coaches that have met him have said we got him way too cheaply. But would you pay more for a horse that was too lean, had fairly bad hooves, and disunited in canter every time? We maybe paid too much at the time but a bit of feeding up, some biotin for his hooves and some schoolwork and he looks how he how he should.


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## FfionWinnie (10 January 2016)

Fools breed horses for wise men to buy. 

Not a new saying!


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## thatsmygirl (10 January 2016)

You see I would never pay thousands for any horse, but then I'm not after a world beater so the normal average horse will do what I want, hunt , fun ride, hack, team chase! I work on them and get what I want from them and haven't had one not capable. Best horse I brought was for £800 as a 6 yr old, tb x wc and 13 yrs later iv still got her, not 1 days lameness and the best horse iv ever owned and would jump anything asked. Why pay what I consider silly money when you can pay around £800/1000 for a decent horse if u know what your looking at.


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## thatsmygirl (10 January 2016)

Plus iv brought a lovely put together palamino filly, no breeding at all but boy she's put together well and I know with right training she will do what I want, £100. She will take me hunting when older, I don't see the need to pay for breeding.


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## kassieg (10 January 2016)

I don't think any of them were overpriced. Even the 4.5k which is unlikely to make an eventer will be a lovely little allrounder for someone! 

I have been lucky with the youngsters I've bought for reasonably cheap but they are middle class, none will ever go further than be novice I don't think. The next 1 I buy will be for me & I will be buying a 3 of 4 year old unbroken event type and am willing to spend the money that is necessary. 

I think its sad that people pay for a pair of riding boots or a saddle than some do for their horses!! Ireland always gets slated for a breeding crisis for low quality horses but I honestly feel we are going the same way!  People don't care about breeding but actually 1 way or the other that foal still stands someone at a lot of money. Even if the stud fee was only £200 its the vets fees etc that add up. 

I would love to breed my own but I know there is no money in it at all for me should I ever decide to sell I would inevitability loose money.


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## Theocat (10 January 2016)

thatsmygirl said:



			You see I would never pay thousands for any horse, but then I'm not after a world beater so the normal average horse will do what I want, hunt , fun ride, hack, team chase! I work on them and get what I want from them and haven't had one not capable. Best horse I brought was for £800 as a 6 yr old, tb x wc and 13 yrs later iv still got her, not 1 days lameness and the best horse iv ever owned and would jump anything asked. Why pay what I consider silly money when you can pay around £800/1000 for a decent horse if u know what your looking at.
		
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Yes, of course you can pick up good horses for less - but my point is that £5k isn't "silly money" - any less, and the breeder / producer is making a huge loss. I'm interested in the mindset that £5k has become silly money, when in reality it's anything but.


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## rachk89 (10 January 2016)

Theocat said:



			Yes, of course you can pick up good horses 
for less - but my point is that £5k isn't "silly money" - any less, and the breeder / producer is making a huge loss. I'm interested in the mindset that £5k has become silly money, when in reality it's anything but.
		
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It is for the horses posted. I wouldn't trust any of them around a cross country course. One of them will smack his head off the jumps, one is lazy and the third may or may not stop. All rounders for the average person they may be but who is gonna pay 5k for a horse they will probably hack more than compete? It's not a great investment.


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## elliefiz (10 January 2016)

At a breeders event yesterday there was a talk about the current market for horses. The average price in the UK paid for a horse is about 1300 pounds if I recall correctly. It was under 2k anyway. That says so much about the state of the market and the number of horses that must change hands for under 1k. It makes them affordable for people who really can't afford them. Sadly this leads to all sorts of other problems, like a thread on a Facebook page I saw today regarding another yard closure in Essex and people moaning about finding DIY livery for less than £30 a week. Too many people want to buy cheap, keep cheap and then when something goes wrong have no way of paying the bills for it and we have welfare issues. Horses are a luxury item even if all one wants to do is hack around the roads or even pet it in the field and feed it carrots. One would be hard pushed to have a riding lesson for less than £25 an hour yet too many people think that should be their weekly budget for keeping their horse. And it encourages the horrid little back street dealers who are making a killing selling cheap horses, many of whom have issues or health problems and are suitable for little other than to be PTS. It's a real bugbear of mine. These issues are driving the welfare crisis.


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## thatsmygirl (10 January 2016)

Theocat said:



			Yes, of course you can pick up good horses for less - but my point is that £5k isn't "silly money" - any less, and the breeder / producer is making a huge loss. I'm interested in the mindset that £5k has become silly money, when in reality it's anything but.
		
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£5k to me personally is silly money and I wouldn't pay it for any horse I'm afraid. 
Maybe there's to many lower level riders like me who don't care about the horses breeding as most well put together horses will do the job I want and don't need to pay £5k and just wouldn't.


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## honetpot (10 January 2016)

elliefiz said:



			At a breeders event yesterday there was a talk about the current market for horses. The average price in the UK paid for a horse is about 1300 pounds if I recall correctly. It was under 2k anyway. That says so much about the state of the market and the number of horses that must change hands for under 1k. It makes them affordable for people who really can't afford them. Sadly this leads to all sorts of other problems, like a thread on a Facebook page I saw today regarding another yard closure in Essex and people moaning about finding DIY livery for less than £30 a week. Too many people want to buy cheap, keep cheap and then when something goes wrong have no way of paying the bills for it and we have welfare issues. Horses are a luxury item even if all one wants to do is hack around the roads or even pet it in the field and feed it carrots. One would be hard pushed to have a riding lesson for less than £25 an hour yet too many people think that should be their weekly budget for keeping their horse. And it encourages the horrid little back street dealers who are making a killing selling cheap horses, many of whom have issues or health problems and are suitable for little other than to be PTS. It's a real bugbear of mine. These issues are driving the welfare crisis.
		
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^
Exactly


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## ihatework (10 January 2016)

elliefiz said:



			At a breeders event yesterday there was a talk about the current market for horses. The average price in the UK paid for a horse is about 1300 pounds if I recall correctly. It was under 2k anyway. That says so much about the state of the market and the number of horses that must change hands for under 1k. It makes them affordable for people who really can't afford them. Sadly this leads to all sorts of other problems, like a thread on a Facebook page I saw today regarding another yard closure in Essex and people moaning about finding DIY livery for less than £30 a week. Too many people want to buy cheap, keep cheap and then when something goes wrong have no way of paying the bills for it and we have welfare issues. Horses are a luxury item even if all one wants to do is hack around the roads or even pet it in the field and feed it carrots. One would be hard pushed to have a riding lesson for less than £25 an hour yet too many people think that should be their weekly budget for keeping their horse. And it encourages the horrid little back street dealers who are making a killing selling cheap horses, many of whom have issues or health problems and are suitable for little other than to be PTS. It's a real bugbear of mine. These issues are driving the welfare crisis.
		
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Post of the day


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## kassieg (10 January 2016)

ihatework said:



			Post of the day
		
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Totally agree! I'm actually gobsmacked that the average price is less than 2k that to me is disgusting when you think about the amount of horses on the market& what the range will be, for the average to be less than 2k is seriously worrying


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## twiggy2 (10 January 2016)

If the breeder cannot get good money for the majority of horses they are breeding it means there is not a ready market for what they reed and maybe they should stop breeding.
I believe the the likes of JanetGeorge have no problem selling their horses for a good price


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## 4Hoofed (10 January 2016)

To much rubbish out there! I was just reading on facebook about a girl with 50 odd _"Rescue"_ horses, selling unhandled, unpassportted, and more worryingly ungelded cobs, that they can't afford to feed or passport.  No pictures, or heights, wanting a pittance for potentially something that someone should have had some mercy on a while ago. By the sounds of it the stallions, foals, and mares are all running round in a field together, and what ever they can get close to gets sold. 3 mares in foal  no idea of the sire, due date, no vet check, or even an accurate age on the mare. (Surely a mare that is being sold as three in January was realistically two (hopefully an old two year old for the poor critters sake) when the foal was conceived). So that is just one field of ponies, that dependent on the number of mares/fillies, could easily into double the number of potentially inbred, badly put together, dodgy behavioured animals they can't afford to care for properly. 

I'd love to take one out of the situation, geld, handle and try and find a caring home, but I morally couldn't a) because I feel if I gave them money I'm encouraging them to keep going, b) with two horses already, one with ongoing KS, and recent potential Lami, I don't feel I'm financially secure enough to have a third, even with insurance it wouldn't be fair to not be certain I'd have enough to keep them all in the best of condition should god forbid something were to happen to all three at once!  

Too many people settle for rubbish because its the cheaper option. I know someone who had three ponies, but couldn't afford the rent for one! Two had issues over the span I knew her that were intimidate vet jobs, but at one stage weren't called out because she was going on holiday and it would use some of her spending money she'd saved! Mum and Dad (she was 23+) didn't care, and the local vets have all been stung so much she has to pay on the day because she still owes one clinic from years ago! 

I think whilst it's great we all have the opportunity to love and care for these beautiful animals, I wish maybe people would take it a bit more bloody seriously! Well I'll end the rant there


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## Goldenstar (10 January 2016)

Theocat said:



			Yes, of course you can pick up good horses for less - but my point is that £5k isn't "silly money" - any less, and the breeder / producer is making a huge loss. I'm interested in the mindset that £5k has become silly money, when in reality it's anything but.
		
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£5000 is not expensive for a horse to me that's a entry level price I would tend not to look at things cheaper than that unless I knew the horse or it was near or it was very young or I got it out of training .
But I have three cheaper horses than that on the yard .
One was a five yo quirky TB he was between 4 and 5 beautiful talented horse but quirky .
Another was a hard deal I drove with a ID dealer for a horse with no tail and very green the week before Christmas .
And one was a LOU horse given to me .
I do think while you can great cheap horses people miss out by seeking to buy to cheap .


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## Goldenstar (10 January 2016)

kassieg said:



			Totally agree! I'm actually gobsmacked that the average price is less than 2k that to me is disgusting when you think about the amount of horses on the market& what the range will be, for the average to be less than 2k is seriously worrying
		
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The price of the horse does reflect the cost of keeping one that's a big issue .


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## Goldenstar (10 January 2016)

rachk89 said:



			I think it's possibly due to the fact as well that people know they don't have to pay that much for a horse anymore. You can go to an auction and get them for a couple of hundred if you are lucky. Racehorses going for cheap prices probably hasn't helped either especially since many do well in a new career. 

Presentation of a horse helps though.  We paid 3 grand for my horse and he is worth more easily, not even me that says that the majority of the coaches that have met him have said we got him way too cheaply. But would you pay more for a horse that was too lean, had fairly bad hooves, and disunited in canter every time? We maybe paid too much at the time but a bit of feeding up, some biotin for his hooves and some schoolwork and he looks how he how he should.
		
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It's more likely you paid the correct price for the horse and have rightly and fairly reaped the rewards of the effort you put in.


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## Cortez (10 January 2016)

When there is a catastrophic oversupply of any commodity, basic market economics dictates the price for the lowest end, which in turn will drag down the middle, while the top tier tends to be unaffected. The horse market has changed drastically from the days when it was only toffs who could afford to buy and own horses, perhaps ultimately not to the horse's benefit and certainly not to the breeder's. If market forces truly applied to the horse sector (which they really don't), then there would be a clear out of the lowest quality animals, reduction in supply and a consequent rise in value for the average horse. This has happened to some extent in Ireland and Spain, the two markets I am most familiar with, with a very large rise in the number of lower end animals going to slaughter. Does anyone see the same thing happening in Britain?


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## 4Hoofed (10 January 2016)

Agree with the above. I would expect to pay for a decent horse. My thoroughbred was just shy of 2k, 7 year old, still halfway racing fit, a bit thin, but happy to jump a decent course (1-1.10m) with no real coloured pole experience, and before he had a break and we discovered KS (which didn't affect him whilst he was muscled) was worth every bloody penny and more! Well I would say that I bought him! Other horse, very decently bred ISH, huge jump, 5yo, got him cheap at 2.5k off a friend who bought him as a 4yo for over double that because she was out horsed in every sense, he terrorized her and all the people brought in to help. But he was worth the money because I've got all the time in then world to make him, and from his good breeding, strong (not perfect) conformation, and sound body, I know when the time comes he will perform! SO I do think you get what you pay for! Take a risk on something a bit cheaper, but well bred (or indeed produced) horses will prove more often then not in the long run! More people should buy horses looking for what they need then on the priced tag! A 10k dressage 4 year old will make few happy hackers happy, but then neither will a £100 knack that costs more in vet bills then a house, and has been ruined in the past either! Sure sometimes it works out but there is a lot of heart break


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## rachk89 (10 January 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			It's 
more likely you paid the correct price for the horse and have rightly and fairly reaped the rewards of the effort you put in.
		
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Yeah to be fair on his old owner it sounds like he wouldn't do anything for her when she tried riding him so she gave up. Plus he grew too big i think. Doesn't really excuse the thinness and bad hooves but there we are.


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## elliefiz (10 January 2016)

twiggy2 said:



			If the breeder cannot get good money for the majority of horses they are breeding it means there is not a ready market for what they reed and maybe they should stop breeding.
I believe the the likes of JanetGeorge have no problem selling their horses for a good price
		
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 It's not usually professional breeders who are producing cheap, badly put together horses. Most are breeding to produce top quality animals be it native ponies or performance horses. It's the hobby breeders and the people who breed from mares they own for sentimental reasons that fuel the cheap market. 
Germany has a much bigger land mass than the UK, it could support far more horses than the UK however they produce fewer foals there per year than the UK does. Because it is heavily regulated and controlled. I have driven all over Germany in the past year and can't recall seeing fields of neglected horses like you see here in the UK or indeed in Ireland where the problem is just as bad but for different reasons. Even browsing the various German horse magazines and websites, most horses offered for sale regardless of price, has some sort of recorded breeding and is purpose bred. It would be great if similar controls could be implemented here. Maybe someone else can say that I'm wrong, and there are big issues in Germany but I was told that the reason it is so regulated now is that there were issues in the past so necessary action was taken and it's working. It would be great if the UK could go the same direction, there are the resources in place now such as the British Breeders Network, the various stud books, etc to help and encourage breeders to breed the best they can and not go into the whole thing blindly and hoping to get lucky.


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## CrazyMare (10 January 2016)

We have too many horses at the bottom of the pyramid. 

We don't routinely slaughter horses for meat. In fact, I believe there are very few slaughterhouses who deal in horses.

Death is not the worst fate some of these animals face.


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## maisie06 (10 January 2016)

Mine went cheap because oif the weather - was offered £500 for the pair so took it as nowhere to keep them after yard fell through due to the rain wrecking the timescale.


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## kassieg (10 January 2016)

You only have to look at the 2 equine auction sites on Facebook to see the exact problem. 

There are a couple that will probably end up being decent horses/ponies. 

The rest will go for pittance to people who can't tell a sound horse from one which is not. Probably have god knows how many issues that the buyer may or may not find and if they do they will blame the seller's. Who yes should not be selling these horses but there would be no market for them if people didn't buy them


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## elliefiz (10 January 2016)

CrazyMare said:



			We have too many horses at the bottom of the pyramid. 

We don't routinely slaughter horses for meat. In fact, I believe there are very few slaughterhouses who deal in horses.

Death is not the worst fate some of these animals face.
		
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I think a trip to one of the weekly markets would prove that there is a market for meat horses in the UK. But the horses tend to get shipped to the continent live and slaughtered there. I can think of several fields of horses close to me which are all destined for the continent for meat. The slaughterhouses here slaughter less horses as a result of the horse meat scandal and rightly so given the dishonesty involved. Am I right in believing one of the biggest horse slaughter places closed down?  I really don't believe we should be looking to encourage an industry of breeding horses for meat slaughter in the UK. The atrocities of the kill pens in the USA would back this up. What we need are charities that are realistic about PTS horses, owners who are realistic about PTS horses and responsible breeding.


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## HuntingfieldHoney (10 January 2016)

elliefiz said:



			At a breeders event yesterday there was a talk about the current market for horses. The average price in the UK paid for a horse is about 1300 pounds if I recall correctly. It was under 2k anyway. That says so much about the state of the market and the number of horses that must change hands for under 1k. It makes them affordable for people who really can't afford them. Sadly this leads to all sorts of other problems, like a thread on a Facebook page I saw today regarding another yard closure in Essex and people moaning about finding DIY livery for less than £30 a week. Too many people want to buy cheap, keep cheap and then when something goes wrong have no way of paying the bills for it and we have welfare issues. Horses are a luxury item even if all one wants to do is hack around the roads or even pet it in the field and feed it carrots. One would be hard pushed to have a riding lesson for less than £25 an hour yet too many people think that should be their weekly budget for keeping their horse. And it encourages the horrid little back street dealers who are making a killing selling cheap horses, many of whom have issues or health problems and are suitable for little other than to be PTS. It's a real bugbear of mine. These issues are driving the welfare crisis.
		
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This I completely agree with, I think horse ownership is far too accessible. I see so many people on local facebook groups who really don't have the expertise to own horses usually with several, and usually including a youngster, and usually asking for 'cheap as possible' livery /rugs /more horses. Which is then fuelling the trade in poorly, bred for no real reason animals. 

From my own experience, I brought a mare off a girl last year basically so I could guarantee she would be looked after and if I left her, her future would have been uncertain. She's wonderful, a really well-bred Irish Draught with a brilliant temperament so I was actually pretty lucky. The girl who owned her had decided to take up horses because her friends did, hadn't yet had a proper riding lesson in her 3 years of horse ownership, didn't know how to put a bridle on, and is now on her 5th horse (a cheap cob from a dodgy dealer) because basically anything more than a push button is too much for her. The only real reason she owned horses was because of the social aspect. But hey, I got a wonderful mare out of it.


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## shadowboy (10 January 2016)

I have a horse that pros have valued at between £4 and £6k (depending on their discipline) but when I chat to friends about him they seem to think he's only a £2k horse because there are plenty on bay 15.2hh 4 year olds out there.... I don't think they appreciate the movement and conformation he's got. Plus he's the easiest 4 year old I've ridden hacking out- so also a sane RC type for someone who would like to spend their weekends hacking. If I wanted to sell him o wouldn't do it privately but through a professional event or dressage rider as they hopefully would attract the correct type of buyer.


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## Irish gal (10 January 2016)

People expecting to get horses for half nothing have a very poor attitude. When someone has put a lot of effort and money into getting a horse experienced and 'making it' they are entitled to a fair price for that animal.

I'm currently looking for horses on behalf of clients and although I'm working for the buyer when an owner asks a fair price for the horse I'm not going to knock him down. 

A good looking, well put together horse with a nice jump and movement; a six yr-old who has been hauled around the country to shows, hunts etc - why would anyone expect to buy him for a song! If the owner wants 8, 9, 10,000 - that's fair enough, he's earned it. Naturally there will be a few pounds off but why expect him to take less than that.

We don't expect anyone else to work for nothing, so why expect horse breeders and producers to do so.


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## Irish gal (10 January 2016)

That was up to 10,000 not Pounds!


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## popsdosh (10 January 2016)

Irish gal said:



			That was up to &#8364;10,000 not Pounds!
		
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Oh dear you have knocked 30% off already


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## Goldenstar (10 January 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Oh dear you have knocked 30% off already 

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Always a question to get out of the way early are we talking £ or euros


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## kassieg (10 January 2016)

Irish gal said:



			People expecting to get horses for half nothing have a very poor attitude. When someone has put a lot of effort and money into getting a horse experienced and 'making it' they are entitled to a fair price for that animal.

I'm currently looking for horses on behalf of clients and although I'm working for the buyer when an owner asks a fair price for the horse I'm not going to knock him down. 

A good looking, well put together horse with a nice jump and movement; a six yr-old who has been hauled around the country to shows, hunts etc - why would anyone expect to buy him for a song! If the owner wants 8, 9, 10,000 - that's fair enough, he's earned it. Naturally there will be a few pounds off but why expect him to take less than that.

We don't expect anyone else to work for nothing, so why expect horse breeders and producers to do so.
		
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Here here! A lot of sense in this. I only do it as a bit on the side but i essentially work 7 days a week by the time you've added up the hours i put in alongside my actual job. I do it because I love it but I have huge l pride an joy i producing a correct well rounded horse & its insulting getting people trying to take 2k odd off the price. 
It costs thousands to produce competition horses even at grassroots level !


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## honetpot (10 January 2016)

I would say 90% of the people I have known have not been competitive riders, they want a horse that they can hack down the road, take to the odd show and it be good to load,shoe, have no vices and be sound. The misunderstanding is by many is that a 'happy hacker' costs less to produce and train than a competition horse. ' I only want to hack out once a week so I can only pay under £1000', not realising that this paragon is as rare as hen's teeth and should be in the region of 3k, so they go to a dealer that promises the earth for nothing and then complain when it dumps them, bites then and then costs them a huge amount it vets bills, dentist etc.


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## kassieg (10 January 2016)

honetpot said:



			I would say 90% of the people I have known have not been competitive riders, they want a horse that they can hack down the road, take to the odd show and it be good to load,shoe, have no vices and be sound. The misunderstanding is by many is that a 'happy hacker' costs less to produce and train than a competition horse. ' I only want to hack out once a week so I can only pay under £1000', not realising that this paragon is as rare as hen's teeth and should be in the region of 3k, so they go to a dealer that promises the earth for nothing and then complain when it dumps them, bites then and then costs them a huge amount it vets bills, dentist etc.
		
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When I was 15 I did some work over my holidays with a producer & a lady bought all her horses from her. Paid about 8k for a horse who had done a bit of everything well & hunted a decent bit for her purpose of hacking. Her reason being she knew the horse had seen nearly everything and therefore was unlikely to do anything stupid hacking round her quiet country lanes & she knew if she wanted a days hunting then there was no issues.

A long time ago as well!


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## Irish gal (10 January 2016)

honetpot I agree, although I think a cracking all rounder could be up to £6 - £7,000. And they are as rare as hen's teeth, which is what makes them worth so much. The typical rider will only have one horse and wants the best they can get. So a show quality, sane and sensible lad who is honest, willing not lazy can command a big price.

And why not really - it's a one-off investment by the person in their future best friend and all consuming hobby. If you're only going to have one horse why not make it a cracker that will be your pride and joy and give you pleasure every time you look at him. Personally that is what I would want as long as I could afford to do it.


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## Irish gal (10 January 2016)

kassieg said:



			When I was 15 I did some work over my holidays with a producer & a lady bought all her horses from her. Paid about 8k for a horse who had done a bit of everything well & hunted a decent bit for her purpose of hacking. Her reason being she knew the horse had seen nearly everything and therefore was unlikely to do anything stupid hacking round her quiet country lanes & she knew if she wanted a days hunting then there was no issues.

A long time ago as well!
		
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For her purposes that lady felt she was getting good value for money! That's fair enough...


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## thatsmygirl (10 January 2016)

honetpot said:



			I would say 90% of the people I have known have not been competitive riders, they want a horse that they can hack down the road, take to the odd show and it be good to load,shoe, have no vices and be sound. The misunderstanding is by many is that a 'happy hacker' costs less to produce and train than a competition horse. ' I only want to hack out once a week so I can only pay under £1000', not realising that this paragon is as rare as hen's teeth and should be in the region of 3k, so they go to a dealer that promises the earth for nothing and then complain when it dumps them, bites then and then costs them a huge amount it vets bills, dentist etc.
		
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I do agree with this, our area is happy hackers mainly but there's one family who really get my goat, no knowledge but ALL the money, they keep buying expensive horses just to hack and have them back for sale within a month as the horse is far to talented for them to deal with ( but its the horses fault) said horse is then sold for a fraction off the price and is snapped up in no time by an experienced owner who knows what they are looking at. So its not always novice owners who buy cheap horses, and this is how some very nice horses end up going for a song. My £800 horse that I said about was in the hands off such a owners and she had brought her for £3.500 but was scared to go in her field so she re advertised her for £1000 Ono as they just wanted gone. If your an experienced horse owner you don't need to buy expensive horses if u know what your looking for, for the type of market in our area ( me its hack,hunt, team chase mainly) why spend my hard earned money when I can get decent horses from people like above who frankly shouldn't own horses. Rightly or wrongly iv brought a few off these to sell on and one that will always stick in my head was a very talented horse who was being sold for £200 as companion due to messing around under saddle, she was pure talent and actually when my vet came to 5 * vet her she said if the sell fell through she wanted to buy her. Brought for £200 I had her 8 weeks and was jumping 1.20 and flying Xc at any height, sold for £1500 within a day the ad went out and has since gone on to win so much and that mare was going to be a companion due to inexperienced owners. Yes I sold her cheap for her talent but I pay sod all keep for the horses so got a profit and she's in a good home winning. 

But on the other hand if I wished to event and said horse had wins etc under their belt I would expect to pay for that but as I know what I'm doing I will keep buying for stupid owners who own talented horses who can't cope with them.
Makes me horrid, maybe but I'm experienced so why not.


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## AdorableAlice (10 January 2016)

rachk89 said:



			It is for the horses posted. I wouldn't trust any of them around a cross country course. One of them will smack his head off the jumps, one is lazy and the third may or may not stop. All rounders for the average person they may be but who is gonna pay 5k for a horse they will probably hack more than compete? It's not a great investment.
		
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No horse is a great investment.

Your comments about the three horses on a previous post are ridiculous and you are unable to actually see the way of going.

Horse number one is badly ridden by a heavy handed rider who is unable to ride forward from his seat.  The result is a horse running on the forehand through no fault of his own and not a horse that will "smack his head off the jumps" whatever that may mean.

The second horse is weak and lacking impulsion.  Time and appropriate work will be needed.

The third is a TB by Kayf Tara - you may want to educate yourself on this stallion, he is quite a progeny getter. As for the statement "he may or may not stop", I think that can be said for any horse, and I would hope a good sensible horse would stop if asked a stupid question in front of a fence.

A nice all round horse, capable of hitting 70% unaff and 65% aff, jumping a metre track, hunting well and safe on the road is worth a lot more than 5K.  I would be looking at 7k for a nicely conformed quality horse.

Many people will pay 5k for a horse they will hack and compete occasionally.  They will still be looking for soundness, quality and temperament.  Dross is cheap quality is not, it all depends on whether you can tell the difference.


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## pennyturner (10 January 2016)

Theocat said:



			Yes, of course you can pick up good horses for less - but my point is that £5k isn't "silly money" - any less, and the breeder / producer is making a huge loss. I'm interested in the mindset that £5k has become silly money, when in reality it's anything but.
		
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If you can buy something as good for less, then by definition, the higher price is 'silly money'.  This is the basic economics of supply and demand.  The price is not set by the seller, but by the buyer.

IME it is also the case that often the buyer willing to spend 'silly money' is not the best owner.  I'd rather not sell to someone who can't tell a good horse from a bad one except by price, or who thinks they need to pay to get a perfect horse, rather than knowing they can improve what they buy.


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## pennyturner (10 January 2016)

honetpot said:



			I would say 90% of the people I have known have not been competitive riders, they want a horse that they can hack down the road, take to the odd show and it be good to load,shoe, have no vices and be sound. The misunderstanding is by many is that a 'happy hacker' costs less to produce and train than a competition horse. ' I only want to hack out once a week so I can only pay under £1000', not realising that this paragon is as rare as hen's teeth and should be in the region of 3k, so they go to a dealer that promises the earth for nothing and then complain when it dumps them, bites then and then costs them a huge amount it vets bills, dentist etc.
		
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Does this mean my scabby collection of ponies are valuable?  Seriously, most horses make great happy hackers in the right home, but almost all are quickly ruined by a clueless owner.  If what you're describing is an horse which cannot be ruined by bad riding and thoughtless handling, I don't think it was ever foaled.  Hence the number of 'not as described' complaints you hear.


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## honetpot (10 January 2016)

pennyturner said:



			Does this mean my scabby collection of ponies are valuable?  Seriously, most horses make great happy hackers in the right home, but almost all are quickly ruined by a clueless owner.  If what you're describing is an horse which cannot be ruined by bad riding and thoughtless handling, I don't think it was ever foaled.  Hence the number of 'not as described' complaints you hear.
		
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Yep, advertised correctly they are. 
Our best pony was an 'if only pony', if only he had jumped bigger, done a better dressage test, better confirmation he would have been worth a fortune, as it was he didn't had feet like dinner plates and was as stiff as a broad I paid 2k from a friend. At 14.2 my nine year old daughter could ride him in an open field, he would hunt, safe in traffic and make any novice rider look good and continued to make other peoples children look good when we loaned him out.
  Actually the worse they rode the better behaved he was, try to make him go 'properly' and he would try suddenly find a monster to spook at. Best money I ever spent.


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## thatsmygirl (10 January 2016)

pennyturner said:



			Does this mean my scabby collection of ponies are valuable?  Seriously, most horses make great happy hackers in the right home, but almost all are quickly ruined by a clueless owner.  If what you're describing is an horse which cannot be ruined by bad riding and thoughtless handling, I don't think it was ever foaled.  Hence the number of 'not as described' complaints you hear.
		
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Agree with this, regardless off how much a horse cost in the wrong hands it can be ruined then sold for far less as in the case off the family near me. 
Iv seen lots of happy hackers for not a lot of money ( big livery yard near me) who are pretty much bombproof, you don't need to pay a lot for them and line dealers or breeders pockets. 

A pricey horse does not always mean quality and a cheap horse does not always mean its a badly put together mut.


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## rachk89 (10 January 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			No horse is a great investment.

Your comments about the three horses on a previous post are ridiculous and you are unable to actually see the way of going.

Horse number one is badly ridden by a heavy handed rider who is unable to ride forward from his seat.  The result is a horse running on the forehand through no fault of his own and not a horse that will "smack his head off the jumps" whatever that may mean.

The second horse is weak and lacking impulsion.  Time and appropriate work will be needed.

The third is a TB by Kayf Tara - you may want to educate yourself on this stallion, he is quite a progeny getter. As for the statement "he may or may not stop", I think that can be said for any horse, and I would hope a good sensible horse would stop if asked a stupid question in front of a fence.

A nice all round horse, capable of hitting 70% unaff and 65% aff, jumping a metre track, hunting well and safe on the road is worth a lot more than 5K.  I would be looking at 7k for a nicely conformed quality horse.

Many people will pay 5k for a horse they will hack and compete occasionally.  They will still be looking for soundness, quality and temperament.  Dross is cheap quality is not, it all depends on whether you can tell the difference.
		
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Well if I and others are that wrong then by all means go and tell the person that liked them to buy one of them. I don't look up tb lines as I doubt I will ever get a tb so will have to take your word on that I don't know if he is a good stallion. Maybe he is but I didn't like the fact the horse was hesitating before jumping some jumps. For cross country you want some bravery and if he is scared by fillers then you may have issues out on a course. And the one dropping his head going over fences is wrong but again if you think he is fine then go and let the person know as she has followed the advice of people like me and is looking for something with more experience. 

I don't know many people who will pay*5k for a hacking horse and compete now and again but they tend to buy Highland ponies which are easy to find up here so they don't need to. Difference in markets between Scotland and England it seems.


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## Auslander (10 January 2016)

rachk89 said:



			Well if I and others are that wrong then by all means go and tell the person that liked them to buy one of them. I don't look up tb lines as I doubt I will ever get a tb so will have to take your word on that I don't know if he is a good stallion. Maybe he is but I didn't like the fact the horse was hesitating before jumping some jumps. For cross country you want some bravery and if he is scared by fillers then you may have issues out on a course. And the one dropping his head going over fences is wrong but again if you think he is fine then go and let the person know as she has followed the advice of people like me and is looking for something with more experience. 

I don't know many people who will pay*5k for a hacking horse and compete now and again but they tend to buy Highland ponies which are easy to find up here so they don't need to. Difference in markets between Scotland and England it seems.
		
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I'm sure you didn't mean to sound like you were being very rude to one of the most experienced and knowledgeable posters on here...


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## JFTDWS (10 January 2016)

I know plenty of folk paying in the vicinity of 5k for a safe, sane hack.  Even without super conformation and the potential, or schooling, to go out and compete at RC level successfully.

And a well put together, sound highland, young but not green, with correct schooling and good exposure to life will also command nearly 5k - north or south of the border.  The ponies I see going cheap up there are not what I consider correct, either for the breed, or in their training.


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## thatsmygirl (10 January 2016)

Auslander said:



			I'm sure you didn't mean to sound like you were being very rude to one of the most experienced and knowledgeable posters on here...
		
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Do u know her personally then? Thing is I wouldn't know her from Adam, as with most people on here


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## be positive (10 January 2016)

thatsmygirl said:



			Do u know her personally then? Thing is I wouldn't know her from Adam, as with most people on here
		
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Anyone who reads the posts on here regularly soon works out who is experienced and knowledgeable, AA is one of the more experienced posters whose opinion is worth taking on board, you do not have to know people personally to have an opinion of them.


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## cobgoblin (10 January 2016)

I don't know many people who would pay 5k for a hacking horse either.
There seems to be a great deal of snobbery over the cost of horses, and as someone else said, just because you paid a lot it doesn't necessarily mean the horse is 'better' or more suitable .
Not everyone wants a 'quality' horse, or could give two hoots about its breeding! Away from the rarified atmosphere of HHO this is the norm. People buy a horse because they like it, not because it has perfect conformation or a famous sire.

Prices are, as with everything, merely a reflection of the market.


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## Swirlymurphy (10 January 2016)

elliefiz said:



			At a breeders event yesterday there was a talk about the current market for horses. The average price in the UK paid for a horse is about 1300 pounds if I recall correctly. It was under 2k anyway. That says so much about the state of the market and the number of horses that must change hands for under 1k. It makes them affordable for people who really can't afford them. Sadly this leads to all sorts of other problems, like a thread on a Facebook page I saw today regarding another yard closure in Essex and people moaning about finding DIY livery for less than £30 a week. Too many people want to buy cheap, keep cheap and then when something goes wrong have no way of paying the bills for it and we have welfare issues. Horses are a luxury item even if all one wants to do is hack around the roads or even pet it in the field and feed it carrots. One would be hard pushed to have a riding lesson for less than £25 an hour yet too many people think that should be their weekly budget for keeping their horse. And it encourages the horrid little back street dealers who are making a killing selling cheap horses, many of whom have issues or health problems and are suitable for little other than to be PTS. It's a real bugbear of mine. These issues are driving the welfare crisis.
		
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Absolutely spot on


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## Auslander (10 January 2016)

thatsmygirl said:



			Do u know her personally then? Thing is I wouldn't know her from Adam, as with most people on here
		
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I do, but it wouldn't make a difference if I didn't. It's always glaringly obvious which HHO'ers knows what they are taliking about, and which just think they do


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## Sugar_and_Spice (10 January 2016)

thatsmygirl said:



			£5k to me personally is silly money and I wouldn't pay it for any horse I'm afraid. 
Maybe there's to many lower level riders like me who don't care about the horses breeding as most well put together horses will do the job I want and don't need to pay £5k and just wouldn't.
		
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This. I'm another who wouldn't pay that sort of money for a horse. 

Horses are cheap because there are lots of them. 

As for another post about breeders making a loss, not the ones I know. They rent the land and would pay the same whether there's 2 horses or 20 on it. They own the mares and stallion. Beyond very basic horse care there are no bills. I think their main vet cost is castration. They ride themselves and will ride whatever hasn't been sold yet, until one day it is. They have ponies and cobs with nice temperaments which have been used for hacking and are easy keepers, surviving with minimal care. Something plenty of people want. It's easy money for them. They certainly don't need to charge 5k to make a profit.


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## rachk89 (10 January 2016)

JFTD said:



			I know plenty of folk paying in the vicinity of 5k for a safe, sane hack.  Even without super 
conformation and the potential, or schooling, to go out and compete at RC level successfully.

And a well put together, sound highland, young but not green, with correct schooling and good exposure to life will also command nearly 5k - north or south of the border.  The ponies I see going cheap up there are not what I consider correct, either for the breed, or in their training.
		
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You know different people from me then.  And different Highlands it seems.


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## Slightlyconfused (10 January 2016)

thatsmygirl said:



			£5k to me personally is silly money and I wouldn't pay it for any horse I'm afraid. 
Maybe there's to many lower level riders like me who don't care about the horses breeding as most well put together horses will do the job I want and don't need to pay £5k and just wouldn't.
		
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This. And I don't understand why you would spend £3000 plus on a three year old. The breeder I have brought from sells their just backed youngsters for no more than £1500/2000 depending on how much they have done. 
He doesn't make a loss. 
His stallion runs with the mares, they all live out. No extra feed etc and they are good quality horses will lovely temperaments. 
The most I have ever spent on a horse is £3000 with tack and rugs and he was for his temperament.


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## Cortez (10 January 2016)

If you are going to breed and rear horses to 3 years of age, and if (note the "if") you provide adequate feed, vaccinations, worming and farrier care, not to mention stud fees, passporting, chipping, breed registration, handling and training, and knowledgeable initial selection of breeding stock, it will cost in the region of £800 - £1,000 per year. If, however, you don't do any of the above, then yes, you can produce horses for next to nothing. I know which one I'd be prepared to pay for.


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## JFTDWS (10 January 2016)

rachk89 said:



			You know different people from me then.  And different Highlands it seems.
		
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I know the well bred highlands that circulate, yes.  I'm not interested in the ignorant, cobbled together ones that go cheap...


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## be positive (10 January 2016)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			This. I'm another who wouldn't pay that sort of money for a horse. 

Horses are cheap because there are lots of them. 

As for another post about breeders making a loss, not the ones I know. They rent the land and would pay the same whether there's 2 horses or 20 on it. They own the mares and stallion. Beyond very basic horse care there are no bills. I think their main vet cost is castration. They ride themselves and will ride whatever hasn't been sold yet, until one day it is. They have ponies and cobs with nice temperaments which have been used for hacking and are easy keepers, surviving with minimal care. Something plenty of people want. It's easy money for them. They certainly don't need to charge 5k to make a profit.
		
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The "breeders" you describe are just that, they are churning out indiscriminately with little to no care given, low cost, low value stock with a fair amount probably inbred or with physical problems, no proper breeding programme, breeding from unsound stock, as long as they make a bit of profit they continue to supply more to an already full market, most may have a nice temperament and be easy keepers but that is only useful if they stay sound enough to actually do the job they get bought to do. 

The breeders that do everything properly, have veterinary care when required, breed from proven bloodlines being prepared to cull from the programme anything that has an issue of soundness, register all their stock correctly with breed societies etc will need to get in the region of £5k for a 4-5 year old in order to cover their expenses, there is no guarantee that they will stay sound, do the job but at least you know they have been regularly wormed, properly handled and had a decent start in life.

What people will pay is down to the individual, I have bought cheap horses but I would not buy directly from backyard breeders as it encourages them to churn out even more.


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## AdorableAlice (10 January 2016)

be positive said:



			The "breeders" you describe are just that, they are churning out indiscriminately with little to no care given, low cost, low value stock with a fair amount probably inbred or with physical problems, no proper breeding programme, breeding from unsound stock, as long as they make a bit of profit they continue to supply more to an already full market, most may have a nice temperament and be easy keepers but that is only useful if they stay sound enough to actually do the job they get bought to do. 

The breeders that do everything properly, have veterinary care when required, breed from proven bloodlines being prepared to cull from the programme anything that has an issue of soundness, register all their stock correctly with breed societies etc will need to get in the region of £5k for a 4-5 year old in order to cover their expenses, there is no guarantee that they will stay sound, do the job but at least you know they have been regularly wormed, properly handled and had a decent start in life.

What people will pay is down to the individual, I have bought cheap horses but I would not buy directly from backyard breeders as it encourages them to churn out even more.
		
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Very wise words.


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## thatsmygirl (10 January 2016)

be positive said:



			Anyone who reads the posts on here regularly soon works out who is experienced and knowledgeable, AA is one of the more experienced posters whose opinion is worth taking on board, you do not have to know people personally to have an opinion of them.
		
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Auslander said:



			I do, but it wouldn't make a difference if I didn't. It's always glaringly obvious which HHO'ers knows what they are taliking about, and which just think they do
		
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I suppose tbh I don't post here often anymore so not with it now,


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## Sugar_and_Spice (10 January 2016)

be positive said:



			The "breeders" you describe are just that, they are churning out indiscriminately with little to no care given, low cost, low value stock with a fair amount probably inbred or with physical problems, no proper breeding programme, breeding from unsound stock, as long as they make a bit of profit they continue to supply more to an already full market, most may have a nice temperament and be easy keepers but that is only useful if they stay sound enough to actually do the job they get bought to do. 

The breeders that do everything properly, have veterinary care when required, breed from proven bloodlines being prepared to cull from the programme anything that has an issue of soundness, register all their stock correctly with breed societies etc will need to get in the region of £5k for a 4-5 year old in order to cover their expenses, there is no guarantee that they will stay sound, do the job but at least you know they have been regularly wormed, properly handled and had a decent start in life.

What people will pay is down to the individual, I have bought cheap horses but I would not buy directly from backyard breeders as it encourages them to churn out even more.
		
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Why the assumption the horses are inbred, unsound and from unsound parents? They're not. They're not full of health issues either. Fuelling the low end market, yes, but what's wrong with that? They're providing people with what they want to buy. Seems like good business sense to me. Better business sense than wanting 5k for their 3yr old and being unable to sell it because its too much horse for a lot of those looking to buy and too much money for someone who wants mainly to hack when they can get a suitable animal for a fraction of the price.

This comment is not aimed at anybody in particular but I am finding this thread quite snobby TBH. Comments like novices shouldn't own horses, low end animals aren't worth buying at all, people shouldn't be involved with horses purely for the social side etc. I think people should do what they want with their lives including own horses if they like, for whatever reason. As long as they're having fun, the horse has adequate care and they can ride/handle it well enough to be safe. I find HHO very strange and not at all representative of normal life at times.


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## Slightlyconfused (10 January 2016)

be positive said:



			The breeders that do everything properly, have veterinary care when required, breed from proven bloodlines being prepared to cull from the programme anything that has an issue of soundness, register all their stock correctly with breed societies etc will need to get in the region of £5k for a 4-5 year old in order to cover their expenses, there is no guarantee that they will stay sound, do the job but at least you know they have been regularly wormed, properly handled and had a decent start in life.

What people will pay is down to the individual, I have bought cheap horses but I would not buy directly from backyard breeders as it encourages them to churn out even more.
		
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The breeders I am.on.about in my post are not back yard breeders. Their stallions are registered, colts get castrated, all health checks are performed to show none of the breeds health problems are there and all horses are passported with the breed society. 

They have their own land and have been breeding for 40 years plus and are well known in these circles. 

Also we brought from them for my disabled brother, the temperament of these horses are well known, they can turn a hoof to anything.


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## thatsmygirl (10 January 2016)

JFTD said:



			I know the well bred highlands that circulate, yes.  I'm not interested in the ignorant, cobbled together ones that go cheap...
		
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I would agree highland make money, I only got mine cheap as he wasn't show quality as he had a bit of white on one fetlock but didnt matter for my needs as he wasn't to show


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## JFTDWS (10 January 2016)

thatsmygirl said:



			I would agree highland make money, I only got mine cheap as he wasn't show quality as he had a bit of white on one fetlock but didnt matter for my needs as he wasn't to show
		
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Mine were nowhere near 5k either, but both unbroken youngsters, not ready to go hack / all rounder types.  A proper (registered, well put together and properly trained) highland isn't a cheap option by any means.

(Although I can't bring myself to care even a little about a bit of white here or there.  If it's well put together, and can do the job, what does it really matter?!  )


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## hairycob (10 January 2016)

By the logic of some people a brand new Mercedes is over priced because you can get a 10yo dented Fiesta with 2 months MOT that will get you to the supermarket and back for a lot less.


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## thatsmygirl (10 January 2016)

Slightlyconfused said:



			The breeders I am.on.about in my post are not back yard breeders. Their stallions are registered, colts get castrated, all health checks are performed to show none of the breeds health problems are there and all horses are passported with the breed society. 

They have their own land and have been breeding for 40 years plus and are well known in these circles. 

Also we brought from them for my disabled brother, the temperament of these horses are well known, they can turn a hoof to anything.
		
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No I agree, I also know a breeder who produces very good stock all registered etc but do so at home and prices vary between 1000 - 2000 depending by what sire, all are very well handled and done well! 

If I sell a horse I don't expect the new owner to pay for say the last 4 years off keeping him/feed/vet bills etc but this seems to be what breeders expect, i can appreciate if said horse has good breeding and your paying for that.  The breeder near me prices his horses going by the current market in our area and the fact the horses are " blank canvas"


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## Cortez (10 January 2016)

thatsmygirl said:



			No I agree, I also know a breeder who produces very good stock all registered etc but do so at home and prices vary between 1000 - 2000 depending by what sire, all are very well handled and done well! 

If I sell a horse I don't expect the new owner to pay for say the last 4 years off keeping him/feed/vet bills etc but this seems to be what breeders expect, i can appreciate if said horse has good breeding and your paying for that.  The breeder near me prices his horses going by the current market in our area and the fact the horses are " blank canvas"
		
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So you think that it is OK for breeders to lose money on their stock? The fact is that most breeders DO lose money (I gave up my stud farm for that very reason as I was not prepared to cut corners and was only interested in producing top quality), what bewilders me is why they would continue to breed if that is the case.


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## thatsmygirl (10 January 2016)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			Why the assumption the horses are inbred, unsound and from unsound parents? They're not. They're not full of health issues either. Fuelling the low end market, yes, but what's wrong with that? They're providing people with what they want to buy. Seems like good business sense to me. Better business sense than wanting 5k for their 3yr old and being unable to sell it because its too much horse for a lot of those looking to buy and too much money for someone who wants mainly to hack when they can get a suitable animal for a fraction of the price.

This comment is not aimed at anybody in particular but I am finding this thread quite snobby TBH. Comments like novices shouldn't own horses, low end animals aren't worth buying at all, people shouldn't be involved with horses purely for the social side etc. I think people should do what they want with their lives including own horses if they like, for whatever reason. As long as they're having fun, the horse has adequate care and they can ride/handle it well enough to be safe. I find HHO very strange and not at all representative of normal life at times.
		
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I totally agree with you, this thread has really interested me as to what people will pay etc and that lower priced horses must be low end stock which just isn't always the case.


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## Tern (10 January 2016)

My horses have never been above 3k. But then again, I have a Welsh Cob with fantastic blood lines and not show-worthy conformation, she was also incredibly green when I bought her - however, she is brave enough and talented enough to event and that's what I wanted her for. I then have a Clydesdale x TB with no recorded breeding, incredibly low mileage however perfect gent, hacks for hours, as much stamina as an arab and some rather fancy dressage moves! The Clyde's saddle made up the most of his sale price. 

If I want a broodmare then i'll buy something with good breeding and good conformation. If I want a happy hacker I am quite happy to buy something with neither as long as conformation issues don't effect horse in long-run.

Personally, I won't buy a horse above 5k - that's more because you can find quality horses at a far cheaper price that may just need to have a bit more work put into them. What you wish to pay is a personal preference and honestly it's winter - horses are cheaper now anyway.


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## Slightlyconfused (10 January 2016)

thatsmygirl said:



			No I agree, I also know a breeder who produces very good stock all registered etc but do so at home and prices vary between 1000 - 2000 depending by what sire, all are very well handled and done well! 

If I sell a horse I don't expect the new owner to pay for say the last 4 years off keeping him/feed/vet bills etc but this seems to be what breeders expect, i can appreciate if said horse has good breeding and your paying for that.  The breeder near me prices his horses going by the current market in our area and the fact the horses are " blank canvas"
		
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Yep agree. 

The horses are so well handled and have manners. Have seen farriers. I would not want to pay £3000 plus for a three/four year old that has not done anything.


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## thatsmygirl (10 January 2016)

Cortez said:



			So you think that it is OK for breeders to lose money on their stock? The fact is that most breeders DO lose money (I gave up my stud farm for that very reason as I was not prepared to cut corners and was only interested in producing top quality), what bewilders me is why they would continue to breed if that is the case.
		
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I think some breeders do charge silly prices for un proven horses, like I say if the background breeding is there off course you will get somebody who will pay for the breeding and that is understandable,  but the horse will only be as good as the hands it falls  in, but if they are willing to pay the price that's fine. 
I don't agree that buyers should be paying for all the keep feed vet bills etc before becoming the owner, that is part of the job, you bred it and its your horse/your responsibility until you sell it. No normal seller would add all the keep, feed etc into the sell of their horse for the length off time they have owned it surely, price is based on the horses ability or/and breeding,parentage background.


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## Cortez (10 January 2016)

Slightlyconfused said:



			Yep agree. 

The horses are so well handled and have manners. Have seen farriers. I would not want to pay £3000 plus for a three/four year old that has not done anything.
		
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I think this argument has split along two lines - what breeders are asking pricewise, and what horses are "worth". One of the reasons I stopped breeding was because I could buy marketable youngstock (and often older) that were the right age, sex, size, colour and athletic quality far, far cheaper than I could breed them. In essence I was taking advantage of other breeders misfortune (or lack of marketing expertise), and eliminating 80% of the risk. This tells me that the market was flooded, and I retired from the stud farm "business", happily.

But if people want to buy well bred horses in the future then breeders have to make a profit, surely? There are too many horses, and they are undervalued. So I return to the argument that there are too many amateurs involved.


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## HufflyPuffly (10 January 2016)

Very interesting thread. 
We have three horses, only one cost the money that she deserved. 

Topaz is not for the faint hearted but has a decent jump, talented on the flat, good to hack and fab cross country. She cost approx 5K , and was worth every penny and I think this was the correct price for her. 

Doodle was cheap for what she's given us but probably a 'fair' price for the circumstances at the time. She was £1500 but at the time she was only just coming back from injury (at 12 years old), and being sold as the loaners wanted to give her back and the owner didn't want her back. She was advertised for about 2.2K but sold to us for what I had in savings as they wanted a good home. 

Skylla was peanuts! The breeder will have made a substantial loss and I suspect the guy I bought her from did too. She was sold as the breeder lost his grazing and paid his worker with her instead of wages. She then was a bit much I think for the guy who took her and so he sold her on for very little (£500). 

So I entirely agree that people should pay what it costs to realistically get the horse to a rideable age, but then I'm also a massive hypocrite as I did go out and look for a 'bargin'...


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## Micropony (10 January 2016)

I often hear people who I otherwise regard as relatively sensible expressing odd views about the purchase price of horses (well, odd to me anyway).
Keeping a horse properly isn't cheap. If you are looking to buy a horse as a youngster and keep it for the rest of its days (and I know not everyone is), whether you spend £1k or £10k on buying it is really neither here nor there over the years you will own it.
I paid what I regard as a fair price for my youngster, but which some people on this thread would definitely regard as silly money. I did that because he's got a cracking temperament, he's beautifully put together, he's got far more ability and talent than I will ever be good enough to make use of, no matter how much training I have, and I know I will look forward to seeing his face over the stable door every night for the next 20-odd years. A waste of money and a good horse? Yes, probably.
But in a year of owning him I've probably spent nearly as much again on keeping him, training for us both, tack, gear etc., and over the next 20 years the purchase price will become increasingly irrelevant.
And I absolutely know that what I spent on buying him in no way supported what I regard as basically equine puppy farming, which is driving the welfare crisis. I wouldn't buy tea, coffee, sugar, bananas or clothes that were produced unethically, so why do that with a horse?


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## spacefaer (10 January 2016)

I remember talking to Sam Barr (of the world famous Welton stud, for those HHOers too young to have heard of him)

He had his own stallions, his own mares, he barned all the youngstock, like cattle, had his own feed, hay and straw. So about as low cost as you can get

and he reckoned that it cost him from conception to 5 yr old.... 5k and this was in the mid 90s.


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## honetpot (10 January 2016)

''If I sell a horse I don't expect the new owner to pay for say the last 4 years off keeping him/feed/vet bills etc but this seems to be what breeders expect''
 So breeders are expected to provide you with a 'blank canvas' at their expense, what is the point of them breeding them? Also they have kept the mare for at least 18months and she has needed worming, her feet done, scanned, tested ,oh and then if you want to make sure of a quality animal, stud fee, keep or vets fees foe AI.
 The old days of the farmer who would breed a couple of mares that would run along with his other stock and perhaps get a walk in stallion out of the old HIS scheme have long since gone. If someone is breeding at 'a loss', there has been some corners cut somewhere. And how many have the acreage to run horses on when they could just about make money from cattle or even a livery yard.
 If you look on Preloved there are hardly animals over 16hands for sale unless they come from dealers yards or are TB. Supply and demand, the quality animal prices will go up eventually.


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## AdorableAlice (10 January 2016)

rachk89 said:



			Well if I and others are that wrong then by all means go and tell the person that liked them to buy one of them. I don't look up tb lines as I doubt I will ever get a tb so will have to take your word on that I don't know if he is a good stallion. Maybe he is but I didn't like the fact the horse was hesitating before jumping some jumps. For cross country you want some bravery and if he is scared by fillers then you may have issues out on a course. And the one dropping his head going over fences is wrong but again if you think he is fine then go and let the person know as she has followed the advice of people like me and is looking for something with more experience. 

I don't know many people who will pay*5k for a hacking horse and compete now and again but they tend to buy Highland ponies which are easy to find up here so they don't need to. Difference in markets between Scotland and England it seems.
		
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Interesting comments.  I didn't actually state that you or anyone else is wrong and I did not recommend any of the horses be purchased.  On the subject of sires, regardless of what breed, it is always worth looking at a pedigree and understanding it in relation to the requirements you may have from the potential horse you may be looking at.  There is no 'may be a good stallion' in regards to the sire of the horse that you deem to be lacking in bravery and hesitant.  No need to take my word, Kayf Tara needs no introduction as leading NH sire.  There is nothing wrong in a young horse having a look at what he is doing and working out the problems in front of him.  Intelligence v ignorant and careless, you decide.  Out of the three, the Kayf Tara would be the most likely to event and/or team chase.

If you look at the skeletal structure of the horse, you will find that he does need to lower his head to allow the shoulders and forehand to lift and to enable the engine to engage.  The structure of the skull is interesting as well, the horse cannot see the fence from a stride away.  The horse you are saying 'drops his head over the fence' is on his forehand, that is a rider error, the horse has not been schooled or prepared to do what is being asked of him.  You could test this out, jump a gate, if the horse has not dropped his head prior to take off, ring an ambulance.

What is your definition of a hacking horse ?


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## twiggy2 (10 January 2016)

elliefiz said:



			It's not usually professional breeders who are producing cheap, badly put together horses. Most are breeding to produce top quality animals be it native ponies or performance horses. It's the hobby breeders and the people who breed from mares they own for sentimental reasons that fuel the cheap market. 
Germany has a much bigger land mass than the UK, it could support far more horses than the UK however they produce fewer foals there per year than the UK does. Because it is heavily regulated and controlled. I have driven all over Germany in the past year and can't recall seeing fields of neglected horses like you see here in the UK or indeed in Ireland where the problem is just as bad but for different reasons. Even browsing the various German horse magazines and websites, most horses offered for sale regardless of price, has some sort of recorded breeding and is purpose bred. It would be great if similar controls could be implemented here. Maybe someone else can say that I'm wrong, and there are big issues in Germany but I was told that the reason it is so regulated now is that there were issues in the past so necessary action was taken and it's working. It would be great if the UK could go the same direction, there are the resources in place now such as the British Breeders Network, the various stud books, etc to help and encourage breeders to breed the best they can and not go into the whole thing blindly and hoping to get lucky.
		
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I was using the term 'breeder' loosely


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## Slightlyconfused (10 January 2016)

Cortez said:



			I think this argument has split along two lines - what breeders are asking pricewise, and what horses are "worth". One of the reasons I stopped breeding was because I could buy marketable youngstock (and often older) that were the right age, sex, size, colour and athletic quality far, far cheaper than I could breed them. In essence I was taking advantage of other breeders misfortune (or lack of marketing expertise), and eliminating 80% of the risk. This tells me that the market was flooded, and I retired from the stud farm "business", happily.

But if people want to buy well bred horses in the future then breeders have to make a profit, surely? There are too many horses, and they are undervalued. So I return to the argument that there are too many amateurs involved.
		
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I also supposed it's how they are kept too which dictates the cost of breeding too.

The one I've mentioned all his horses live out, when mare is ready to drop she goes in the foaling paddock and when she and foal is ready go back in with the herd. 

They are okay with stables as they come in to wait for farrier etc in stables but other than that they live out unrugged and left to be horses. 

Though I have known other breeders that spend money on stud feed etc and stable them so I can see that the costs would add up.


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## Goldenstar (10 January 2016)

hairycob said:



			By the logic of some people a brand new Mercedes is over priced because you can get a 10yo dented Fiesta with 2 months MOT that will get you to the supermarket and back for a lot less.
		
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I thought exactly same .
And I rather drive the Mercedes ( well a range rover ) .
I could have bought a very cheap horse to do what I do now on but I didn't I bought a beautiful older horse with lots of valuable experience he was very expensive based on what some people on here think you should spend on a hacking fun type horse .
But it's just a privilege to sit on a horse like him ( well it will be when he's back to work ) and if you have the money why buy a Fiesta unless that is what you enjoy more.


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## gallopingby (10 January 2016)

There are some interesting comments on this thread and peoples perceptions are just that - but 5K for a registered large breed M&M pony capable of carrying an adult and going in a balanced manner sounds about right to me - that should buy you a pony who has been looked after and has decent conformation to carry out whatever job you require whether as a safe family pony, WHP/dressage/show/RC. The same price would seem reasonable for a RC type horse, but don't forget you M&M may require less mollycoddling and can live out even in the wet and rain. If the horse/pony doesn't meet the breed standard i.e. has white where it shouldn't then it will be a little cheaper as a youngster, before time has gone into schooling it. Interestingly there aren't many M&Ms for sale that are capable of doing for example an open WHP course, they are like hen's teeth and command a premium should you be fortunate in locating one. Yes there may be a few four year old novices about and their price ready to compete in novice classes will be upwards of 3K. If anyone was interested in bloodlines and studied those of any of the breeds they would discover that certain combinations have  been consistent in producing stock who have good temperaments and ability while those at the cheaper end of the market haven't had the same time and thought given to them and therefore require more input from a new owner - in many cases these are the ones passed on as 'difficult' simply because people don't have the experience to bring on a young horse these days.


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## AdorableAlice (10 January 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			I thought exactly same .
And I rather drive the Mercedes ( well a range rover ) .
I could have bought a very cheap horse to do what I do now on but I didn't I bought a beautiful older horse with lots of valuable experience he was very expensive based on what some people on here think you should spend on a hacking fun type horse .
But it's just a privilege to sit on a horse like him ( well it will be when he's back to work ) and if you have the money why buy a Fiesta unless that is what you enjoy more.
		
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Absolutely agree.

The feel of a quality and educated horse is a privilege and it really hit home to me when I lost mine and started looking to buy.


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## Theocat (10 January 2016)

thatsmygirl said:



			If I sell a horse I don't expect the new owner to pay for say the last 4 years off keeping him/feed/vet bills etc but this seems to be what breeders expect
		
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Just out of interest, if you were to buy a new car, would you think it was fair to charge a purchase price that covered the cost of materials, the rent for the factory, the tools needed to build it, and the staff time to put it together? 

If you're a breeder, as opposed to a hobby rider, you breed as your livelihood. Of course the sale value should reflect your costs - and the prices we're talking about don't allow for profit, just to cover costs.

It's completely different selling horses on later. The costs I incur are just the costs of having my hobby - money in = enjoyment out. 

I'd expect a breeder to cover their costs in the same way I'd expect anyone making and selling any other new product to cover their costs.


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## cbmcts (10 January 2016)

cobgoblin said:



			I don't know many people who would pay 5k for a hacking horse either.
There seems to be a great deal of snobbery over the cost of horses, and as someone else said, just because you paid a lot it doesn't necessarily mean the horse is 'better' or more suitable .
Not everyone wants a 'quality' horse, or could give two hoots about its breeding! Away from the rarified atmosphere of HHO this is the norm. People buy a horse because they like it, not because it has perfect conformation or a famous sire.

Prices are, as with everything, merely a reflection of the market.
		
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I would, without a second thought if it was a well put together animal, safe and sane in traffic, on the road, in open fields and in company. 

Nothing to do with snobbery and everything to do with realising that you're looking for the Holy Grail - a well trained, sensible sound horse that will make hacking out a pleasure not a terrifying chore! Yes there are brave people (I was one of them once, many years ago so realise what it takes to make a nice horse) who are happy to put the work in to get to that standard but as a middle aged, semi crippled, nervous nellie I accept that I'm going to have to pay for the time that was put in since I won't do the training myself. 

Alternatively I could go and buy a reasonably put together, not a world beater yearling for £1k. By the time I'd kept them until they were 4, paid out for training I still reckon that £5K for a 6 - 8 yo hacker would be a bargain


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## EventingMum (10 January 2016)

A horse is only worth what a buyer will pay. 

Breeding is not cheap but you cut down on what is going out of your wallet if you have your own stallion, good land and live where the weather allows them to live out most of the year. However it has to be remembered that often what people think is profit isn't really if you look at the hidden costs such as a return on the investment of buying the land, building stables etc, if you were renting it would be a different picture. Also factoring the cost of your time looking after the mares, foals and youngsters would be substantial even if it was costed at NMW. I think amateur breeders often enjoy having youngsters and don't take into account the time taken to produce them as they do it for pleasure. 

Also a lot depends on what you consider makes a horse valuable, we can all agree that healthy with correct, or at least not bad, conformation is a must but after that the rest is often down to personal choice. When you try a horse you often feel you have clicked with one, like it's way of going and can see, perhaps with some work, it fitting in with your lifestyle and riding aspirations. Another person may try the same horse and not like it at all and feel because of that it's overpriced. I have bought horses and ponies from a wide variety of sellers, professional and amateur. Some I would consider overpriced, some absolute steals but I bought them because they fitted the bill for what I was looking for at the time. The more expensive horses I have bought have all be purchased for their potential, not the stage of training they were at at the point of purchase - if I had considered that was as far as they would go I would have considered them overpriced.  However I considered they had the ability and, more importantly, trainability and temperament to fit in with our yard, rider and the way we worked. Don't forget too, horses are often advertised at the price the seller would like to get but they know in reality they may not achieve it and are open to negotiation, sometimes reducing the price substantially. The difficulty with horses is no two are the same, we don't have the equivalent of the motor trades guide to prices based on mileage and condition of a particular model. 

The only way forward to protect horses is to constantly keep up the drive for responsible breeding and then for those breeding to be selective in the stock they are breeding from and to breed the types that there is a market for, be that a happy hacker or a potential Badminton winner. If such horses were then sold at prices reflecting the financial input to them we could get away from cheap horses being sold to owners who cannot afford to keep them properly. However regardless of their destiny, good conformation and temperament should be essential but from then on much is down to the way they are produced - you can't legislate for bad handling or riding.  All these thoughts are idealistic and I don't know how they can be enforced, the current state of affairs in this country highlights the difference between us and our European counterparts - I could be wrong but I haven't heard of a crisis like this in say Germany where breeding is much more regulated.


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## 4Hoofed (10 January 2016)

I think people have got their backs up on this post because it's about money.

 For the wanting to spend 5k on a decent young horse I do think thats reasonable. If someone wanted my youngster, I'd laugh if I was offered anything less. (And would need perhaps a bit more...) He's never going to go and win HOYs, but locally 1st and 2nds, and a 5th out of a very big class, with a very respected judge who rode, and simply said keep on what your doing next year you'll at least be in the top three. He has strong conformation, he is a big, well bred sports horse, good hunter type. Slight dish due to negligent foot car as a 4yo by someone who spent 5k on him. It may straighten even more with time.  Its hardly noticeable. Bold XC, will jump anything in a group, will lead over XC fences, a bit dithery and young at times in an area with fences, but balanced pleasant horse to ride, attractive, and bit bonus 120% bomb proof. This horse has seen it all, barges, trains, buses, motor way bridges, had to cross dual carriage ways, been in a big arena with a hundred people in the stands, had people walk into him at crowded shows, had horses canter into him at fun rides. ALL of this with calm understanding riding to make him confident, and educated so it know takes a lot to make my 6yo worry. He escorts older horses past things that scare them, or in situations we're unsure of a horse in traffic, you can lead children off him. SO in fairness is someone were to come and say I'll give you 2k, would seem like a joke, because while I'm not being paid by the hour doing this, a lot of my time, blood, sweat and tears have gone into his production, not even accounting money!

And I'm not well off by any means, I bought him off a friend on a payment scheme, lived off a £5 a week for groceries, and cycled everywhere some months when money was short! I have to keep him on a cheap livery yard, which makes my life harder so I can feed him the best, take him out every week in the summer, and work for a quality horse, whilst working a full time pub job. So if I were to part for him I'd want the money!

Even if he wasn't well bred from a respected stud I'd still want similar money! It is a hobby for most, but it doesn't change facts, you want a product, you've got to pay for what its made of, even if that is just effort and quality end product!


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## rachk89 (10 January 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Interesting comments.  I didn't actually state that you or anyone else is wrong and I did not recommend any of the horses be purchased.  On the subject of sires, regardless of what breed, it is always worth looking at a pedigree and understanding it in relation to the requirements you may have from the potential horse you may be looking at.  There is no 'may be a good stallion' in regards to the sire of the horse that you deem to be lacking in bravery and hesitant.  No need to take my word, Kayf Tara needs no introduction as leading NH sire.  There is nothing wrong in a young horse having a look at what he is doing and working out the problems in front of him.  Intelligence v ignorant and careless, you decide.  Out of the three, the Kayf Tara would be the most likely to event and/or team chase.

If you look at the skeletal structure of the horse, you will find that he does need to lower his head to allow the shoulders and forehand to lift and to enable the engine to engage.  The structure of the skull is interesting as well, the horse cannot see the fence from a stride away.  The horse you are saying 'drops his head over the fence' is on his forehand, that is a rider error, the horse has not been schooled or prepared to do what is being asked of him.  You could test this out, jump a gate, if the horse has not dropped his head prior to take off, ring an ambulance.

What is your definition of a hacking horse ?
		
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Well first off, you said my opinion was ridiculous so forgive me for thinking that you were saying I was wrong.

Oh it is definitely worth looking at pedigree before buying a horse. I stupidly didnt do that on buying mine, but I managed to luck out in that respect. Either way, his movement was what won it for us so pedigree was just an added bonus. I dont personally know of Kayf Tara, its the first time I've seen his name mentioned. Plus as everyone knows, even a good sire can throw out a bad foal, even if you use a good mare. Its less likely, but genetics are a lovely quirky thing. I dont view that horse as confident enough and brave enough to manage XC, or at least I certainly wouldnt trust him. I need to trust a horse when allowing it to travel fast at a solid fence, and that horse isnt one I could trust. 

The first one, maybe you are right and he is on the forehand, but he looks ok up until he gets to a fence and then suddenly his head goes down. It doesnt look right at all, and its not just me that thinks that, it looks weird. Dunno about anyone else, but I dont often have a horse drop its head like that when going over a jump before, and when it has we've both ended up on the floor. Again, its something that puts me off that particular horse, it doesnt look natural at all. I know and used to ride a mare that was always on the forehand, I mean she would pull your arms out in canter she was so strong. Jumping, it got worse, if she got sight of a jump, you were going over it. But it never felt unsafe, and it never looked unsafe like that horse. I even felt safe doing cross country with her, which for me that doesnt happen often. I knew though that she wasnt going to hesitate and not jump, and nor was she likely to get it wrong and end up dropping me on the floor.

Hacking horse to me is just a pleasure horse, its schooled enough to know the basics and some lateral work although not necessary, can probably jump a bit, but really its just a relaxing horse to ride and you can go on long hacks with it feeling safe and not thinking 'what will happen if it sees a butterfly/its own shadow right now?'. Its nothing special, nothing extraordinary, its just nice and comfortable. I love horses like that in their own way, you can sit back and not worry about a thing and just go into your own thoughts. I'm not talking about your hacking horses for shows and that, it is just your average horse. I would love to own a Highland pony like that, or a cob like that. I cant relax on mine out on hacks because I always wonder what he might do, plus he is not comfortable at all. Ridden highland ponies before with canters that you could sit to forever. That would be just perfect to me for a hacking horse. But I wouldnt pay 5k for a horse like that when its just a pleasure horse. Its just not worth the money to me.


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## wench (10 January 2016)

I buy good quality horses, but when they are on the cheap after numpty owners have had them. Best bargain I've ever had was a £15k horse for £1.5k


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## NZJenny (10 January 2016)

Interesting thread - especially from this side of the world.

We have a really big gap in our middle market.  There are lots of people breeding for the Olympics (or so they think!), so they are using Warmblood stallions and producing horses for experienced riders and asking prices for youngstock accordingly, not to mention anything that is started or has some experience.  Not so great if you are an average Joe rider!

Then we have a lot of retired and failed racehorse both Standardbreds and Thoroughbreds which are sold cheaply for a few hundred dollars.  SB's are great happy hackers, TB's can turn their hooves to just about anything, but a lot come with issues which take an experienced eye to avoid in the first place and to deal with later.

What we seem to lack is medium sized horses that are safe, sane and sound that can trek this weekend after doing an ODE last weekend and off to the local Ag show next weekend.  They need to live out all year around (as most do here) and might not get ridden every day.  It is quite normal for horses to run on a hill country stations (Tb/Clydie crosses mostly, originally used on the stations for stock work), with minimal handling, until they are three years old and then sold on to be started under saddle.  So they are not vaccinated, hard fed, covered or anything else prior to that and they are ideally suited to the Kiwi equestrian world.  However, these are a dying breed as of course, not so much mustering is done by horse these days.

However, people want those horses broken and going, five or six years old with competition experience for about NZ$5000, which still won't cover expenses never mind turning a bit of profit.


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## Auslander (10 January 2016)

rachk89 said:



			The first one, maybe you are right and he is on the forehand, but he looks ok up until he gets to a fence and then suddenly his head goes down. It doesnt look right at all, and its not just me that thinks that, it looks weird. Dunno about anyone else, but I dont often have a horse drop its head like that when going over a jump before, and when it has we've both ended up on the floor. Again, its something that puts me off that particular horse, it doesnt look natural at all.
		
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Apologies if I am incorrect, but your comment suggests to me that you haven't done a lot of jumping, and not on a truly athletic horse.
A decent jumping horse will drop it's head a little as it approaches a fence. This is because he needs to do so in order to judge his takeoff. When he takes off, a horse that jumps correctly will lift his withers and drop his head, which allows him to make a curved shape over a fence and to get his back end in the air- it's called bascule. A horse with a well developed bascule can be difficult to sit on if you're not used to it - first the withers come up and hit you in the chest, then the back end flicks you forward. Once you get the hang of it, you'll never want to jump a horse that jumps flat ever again!


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## AdorableAlice (10 January 2016)

rachk89 said:



			Hacking horse to me is just a pleasure horse, its schooled enough to know the basics and some lateral work although not necessary, can probably jump a bit, but really its just a relaxing horse to ride and you can go on long hacks with it feeling safe and not thinking 'what will happen if it sees a butterfly/its own shadow right now?'. Its nothing special, nothing extraordinary, its just nice and comfortable. I love horses like that in their own way, you can sit back and not worry about a thing and just go into your own thoughts. I'm not talking about your hacking horses for shows and that, it is just your average horse.  or a cob like that.. Its just not worth the money to me.
		
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Here is the horse that you describe above, an average cob.

100% in any traffic in front of the leg, nice mouth, 8 yr old.  15.2h,  Cubbed and done 4 days this season, sound, will jump a log if she has to. Laterally supple which is a necessary to be safe on the road and extremely comfortable.  Parks and coffee stops without question and you won't spill anything as she stands rock still.

What do you think she would fetch on the open market ?


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## rachk89 (10 January 2016)

Auslander said:



			Apologies if I am incorrect, but your comment suggests to me that you haven't done a lot of jumping, and not on a truly athletic horse.
A decent jumping horse will drop it's head a little as it approaches a fence. This is because he needs to do so in order to judge his takeoff. When he takes off, a horse that jumps correctly will lift his withers and drop his head, which allows him to make a curved shape over a fence and to get his back end in the air- it's called bascule. A horse with a well developed bascule can be difficult to sit on if you're not used to it - first the withers come up and hit you in the chest, then the back end flicks you forward. Once you get the hang of it, you'll never want to jump a horse that jumps flat ever again!
		
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No you are correct, I havent. I dont do a lot of jumping as I know basically what to do, but it terrifies me and I forget everything on approach to a fence, which isnt helpful.

What you've described for the motions sounds like what my current horse does, because he throws me forward nearly everytime. But even when I watch a professional jump him he doesnt look like what that horse did. Is that horse exaggerating what a horse is meant to do? I have ridden other horses that are more experienced than him at jumping, and they still dont look like that. I have honestly never seen a horse do what that horse did when jumping, thats why I find it weird.


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## spacefaer (10 January 2016)

As I said on the original post, the first horse looks like it has been trained more like an American green hunter - a particular way of going for competitions in America

See the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLaBh2CEKqg

It's not weird, it's just a way of going.


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## PapaFrita (10 January 2016)

Auslander said:



			Apologies if I am incorrect, but your comment suggests to me that you haven't done a lot of jumping, and not on a truly athletic horse.
A decent jumping horse will drop it's head a little as it approaches a fence. This is because he needs to do so in order to judge his takeoff. When he takes off, a horse that jumps correctly will lift his withers and drop his head, which allows him to make a curved shape over a fence and to get his back end in the air- it's called bascule. A horse with a well developed bascule can be difficult to sit on if you're not used to it - first the withers come up and hit you in the chest, then the back end flicks you forward. Once you get the hang of it, you'll never want to jump a horse that jumps flat ever again!
		
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This. 100% Agree it is VERY odd the first time you feel a really good jump, but later it becomes totally thrilling


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## Goldenstar (10 January 2016)

PapaFrita said:



			This. 100% Agree it is VERY odd the first time you feel a really good jump, but later it becomes totally thrilling 

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It's just the best feeling in the world .


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## PapaFrita (10 January 2016)

rachk89 said:



			Is that horse exaggerating what a horse is meant to do? I have ridden other horses that are more experienced than him at jumping, and they still dont look like that. I have honestly never seen a horse do what that horse did when jumping, thats why I find it weird.
		
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The horse in question is FOUR. He's a baby and he's doing his job carefully and with v little fuss. I like him. He reminds me of my Fortinero who has turned out to be a lovely horse (ets; he has always been lovely, but now he's really really lovely and fun AND safe)


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## PapaFrita (10 January 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			It's just the best feeling in the world .
		
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Totally.


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## Auslander (10 January 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			It's just the best feeling in the world .
		
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PapaFrita said:



			Totally.
		
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You two need to get out more!


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## rachk89 (10 January 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Here is the horse that you describe above, an average cob.

100% in any traffic in front of the leg, nice mouth, 8 yr old.  15.2h,  Cubbed and done 4 days this season, sound, will jump a log if she has to. Laterally supple which is a necessary to be safe on the road and extremely comfortable.  Parks and coffee stops without question and you won't spill anything as she stands rock still.

What do you think she would fetch on the open market ?






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If I was looking for just a hacking horse, like what I've described, I doubt I would pay more than £1500.

Like someone else put (cant remember who now), it depends on what the buyer is willing to pay isnt it? My price probably (well more than likely) not what you are looking for for her. But she would also suit someone who wants to do a bit of hunting, and maybe do some showing from the looks of her. Going on that basis, not being well versed in pricing, maybe £3500-£4000?

She is totally the type of horse I would love to have for hacking though. I like going on hacks in forests, but my horse is too wired to be calm the whole time. I love the big bulky cobs as well, my horse is so narrow in comparison.


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## Red-1 (10 January 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Absolutely agree.

The feel of a quality and educated horse is a privilege and it really hit home to me when I lost mine and started looking to buy.
		
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Agree 100% with this. I am looking right now, and not finding quality horses easy to find. Poor conformation IS easy to find. Rushed schooling and tense horses again easy to find. Choppy horses abound. 

I have had some great horses in my time, and even though I have a bad back now and won't go above BE90/100 any more, I still want one to make me think "wow" every morning. 

Pre bad back I could "make" them, and tended to buy ones that were fab, but had issues. Now I am looking for one not as taxing on my body, half done at least, and I don't expect to find one at less than 5K, or more. Not with good conformation, manners, and the basics of good schooling that has had a trip out to parties, and is good to hack.


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## Snowfilly (10 January 2016)

Just some thoughts about 'hacking horses'. I owned once an absolutely super trail horse, which I think is a better description than hack. He was fine with all traffic, would go alone and in company and stand for ages if needed. All basic requirements, I'd say. 

He would also cross any sort of terrain from moorland to deep mud to mountain paths. He was lateral enough that you could let yield /  shoulder in around things and open all sorts of gates from him. He'd rein back on paths that were too narrow to turn on and jump logs and ditches with ease. 

In addition to this, he was well balanced enough to work up and down step hills, would lead in hand if needed and let you remount from a gate or whatever. You could ask him to walk over wooden bridges, up and down steps and through running water.

That, to me, are all things I'd expect my hacking horse to be able to do, as well as being sound enough for 3/4 hour rides. He had no breeding or papers, but 4k was a bargain for a horse that could do all that. 

I'll never understand why this thing of 'just a hack' exists. It you want to ride out, you want a horse that can do it all and they're rare and therefore expensive if you buy them ready made.


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## paddi22 (10 January 2016)

From being on yards over the years, most riders only need bog standard nice characters who are happy to pop over a small course and are quiet. Confirmation wise, they mightn't be perfect but never get pushed hard enough to cause issues. From what i can see, 98% of horses potential isn't tapped by the rider. It's lovely (and rare) at say, riding club shows, to see an 'average' plain horse jump a lovely round or do a nice test. Where you can see someone has made the absolute best out of that horse. It's much more common to see flashier horses ridden badly.


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## PapaFrita (10 January 2016)

Auslander said:



			You two need to get out more!
		
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Why? Are we wrong??? 
How do you do the multi-quote thing?


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## Slightlyconfused (10 January 2016)

rachk89 said:



			If I was looking for just a hacking horse, like what I've described, I doubt I would pay more than £1500.

Like someone else put (cant remember who now), it depends on what the buyer is willing to pay isnt it? My price probably (well more than likely) not what you are looking for for her. But she would also suit someone who wants to do a bit of hunting, and maybe do some showing from the looks of her. Going on that basis, not being well versed in pricing, maybe £3500-£4000?

She is totally the type of horse I would love to have for hacking though. I like going on hacks in forests, but my horse is too wired to be calm the whole time. I love the big bulky cobs as well, my horse is so narrow in comparison.
		
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I woul pay £3000 plus for her strictly because of my brother needed that type of horse. 

Saying that we have got a male version of her for £1500 direct from breeder so it's all swings and roundabouts on were in the country you are and I think what the breeder set up is.


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## PapaFrita (10 January 2016)

Snowfilly said:



			I'll never understand why this thing of 'just a hack' exists. It you want to ride out, you want a horse that can do it all and they're rare and therefore expensive if you buy them ready made.
		
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IME a really good hack is a wonderful, comparatively rare creature. It's not (IMO... I could be wrong) about just going out round the block once a week. A good hack is a proper allrounder


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## Flame_ (10 January 2016)

hairycob said:



			By the logic of some people a brand new Mercedes is over priced because you can get a 10yo dented Fiesta with 2 months MOT that will get you to the supermarket and back for a lot less.
		
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Not really, most people are just saying they don't want a Mercedes horse, they don't need a Mercedes horse, why would they pay for a Merc when they'll be happier with the Fiesta? 

I do understand there's a lot of angles to this, here's a few points&#8230;

I do think that breeders are horse owning, bloodlines, baby raising enthusiasts the same way some people are competition or old pet pony owning enthusiasts and the idea that they should have the costs of that hobby covered is dubious. Wouldn't everyone have a stud farm full of lovely baby horses rather than going to work if it actually MADE money? 

I don't think good, safe, useful leisure horses need to have pedigrees, often crossbreeds are tougher and sounder. I think if you want a performance horse you usually do have to pay more and I think the price range is pretty reasonable. There are horses for most pockets.

The over supply of coloured cobs with bad conformation must mean they barely make anyone any money, I've no idea why those breeders bother other than they enjoy the number of their horses multiplying!


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## Pigeon (10 January 2016)

It's sad isn't it. Honestly though looking at some sites (especially facebook) the quality is dire. It all comes down to breeding I guess. Everyone thinks their own mare is special....


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## rachk89 (10 January 2016)

paddi22 said:



			From being on yards over the years, most riders only need bog standard nice characters who are happy to pop over a small course and are quiet. Confirmation wise, they mightn't be perfect but never get pushed hard enough to cause issues. From what i can see, 98% of horses potential isn't tapped by the rider. It's lovely (and rare) at say, riding club shows, to see an 'average' plain horse jump a lovely round or do a nice test. Where you can see someone has made the absolute best out of that horse. It's much more common to see flashier horses ridden badly.
		
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See thats what I am meaning and what I see a lot of up here. Yeah the horses arent the most beautiful, but they are to their owners. They dont need to be perfect, just rideable. A nice character to me is more important than looks if I were to get a horse like that. My two favourite horses for hacking were both pretty ugly mares to anyone else, one of them actually had a really long head that was so disproportionate to her body. But I loved them and felt very safe on them. They were worth pretty much nothing though to anyone else, but I would have happily bought them.


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## dominobrown (10 January 2016)

I was one of the posters who said on the other thread 5K is expensive. However if I was to breed one of those horse and produce it, sell it for 5k I know for a fact that I would not have much change (or any!).
I work with horses, and I am currently looking for ANY job away from them. They are far to replaceable, too cheap, few people are willing to invest any sort of money, pay for things. I work over 60 hours a week and some weeks I cannot afford to even go food shopping for myself. Its an awful depressing reality.


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## laura_nash (10 January 2016)

hairycob said:



			By the logic of some people a brand new Mercedes is over priced because you can get a 10yo dented Fiesta with 2 months MOT that will get you to the supermarket and back for a lot less.
		
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Yes, but also by the logic of some people car manufacturers should only make Mercedes and Range Rovers because they are so nice to drive and well made.  Personally I'm quite happy with my old, muddy, Toyota Grand Vitara (and my old, muddy, happy hacker cob who's breeding is unknown but I've had him 6 years with very few health or soundness issues).

I'm not saying there aren't issues with over-breeding and over supply at the low end of the market, but I do hate this attitude that some posters seem to have that only pure-bred registered horses or sports horses should be bred.  Not all of us actually want something like that, as a working mum my priority is a horse that can be left in the field for a fortnight and then hopped on and taken for a quiet hack (or even after 9 months once).  If it also doesn't need hard feed or shoes, and tends to not injure itself, get sick, get colic etc. then that is also helpful.  At the moment at least, and probably for several more years, I don't compete at anything (and I tried showing once and hated it).



Theocat said:



			Just out of interest, if you were to buy a new car, would you think it was fair to charge a purchase price that covered the cost of materials, the rent for the factory, the tools needed to build it, and the staff time to put it together?
		
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Yes, but that is why I would never buy a new car.  I buy them a few years later at auction..

I think the problem with comparing this to the horse market is that away from the top end there isn't really that distinction between a breeder and any other seller, you don't generally get a 3 year warantee or exemption from the annual vet check after all.


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## PapaFrita (10 January 2016)

rachk89 said:



			The first one, maybe you are right and he is on the forehand, but he looks ok up until he gets to a fence and then suddenly his head goes down. It doesnt look right at all, and its not just me that thinks that, it looks weird. Dunno about anyone else, but I dont often have a horse drop its head like that when going over a jump before, and when it has we've both ended up on the floor. Again, its something that puts me off that particular horse, it doesnt look natural at all.
		
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He is WAY on the forehand and doing everything he can to sort himself out. That, in itself, I LOVE. The rider isn't setting him up at ALL (perhaps intentional to show you how genuine the horse is) and he's only four. His knees are WAY up, so he's never going to tip up over a fence. For 3k I'd have him 
This is my own baby (not so much of a baby any more, and much more forward going than horse in video), second time in jumping lane, checking jumps out with a magnifying glass  
You'd better not tell me he can't jump  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY0NV3VPghU


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## Auslander (10 January 2016)

PapaFrita said:



			Why? Are we wrong??? 
How do you do the multi-quote thing?
		
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I was being seedy!

To multiquote - click the litle black thingie next to "reply with quote" on both the posts that you want to quote, then hit "reply with quote on one of them 
Do one now so that I can be sure you've got it!!


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## paddi22 (10 January 2016)

I can never understand why horses are so expensive in england?

This is one of mine - jumps anything in front of him, does a lovely dressage test, hack like a angel, not great conformation, but handsome..and was 1500 euro. Which i'd consider a fair enough price.


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## PapaFrita (10 January 2016)

Auslander said:



			You two need to get out more!
		
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Auslander said:



			I was being seedy!

To multiquote - click the litle black thingie next to "reply with quote" on both the posts that you want to quote, then hit "reply with quote on one of them 
Do one now so that I can be sure you've got it!!
		
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Auslander said:



			You two need to get out more!
		
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Ta daaa. Oh. Wait. That's not quite right.

What if I just want to quote your quote and the quote you quoted without going back 1,2 or however many pages??


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## rachk89 (10 January 2016)

PapaFrita said:



			He is WAY on the forehand and doing everything he can to sort himself out. That, in itself, I LOVE. The rider isn't setting him up at ALL (perhaps intentional to show you how genuine the horse is) and he's only four. His knees are WAY up, so he's never going to tip up over a fence. For 3k I'd have him 
This is my own baby (not so much of a baby any more, and much more forward going than horse in video), second time in jumping lane, checking jumps out with a magnifying glass  
You'd better not tell me he can't jump  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY0NV3VPghU

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Pfft he cant, you call that a horse?  *hides from beating*

In all honesty now, yours at times looks the way I expect, then he throws in a jump where it looks like he is gonna stick his head between his knees and I'm going 'Ah! head up, dont fall!'. 

There is a horse at the yard I am at that does jumping the way I am on about, its like he never looks at the jump. Yet he always knows what height it is and I've never seen him knock a fence yet. Jumping is his only skill though, he isnt so good at flat work and he doesnt like working properly and going round through his back. He just somehow manages to do well over 1m no problem. I think they were getting to 1.20 before he was silly and bruised his knee in the field. Its the same with a mare there, she does the same thing and she's done 1.20m before easily. She just flies over fences, only seen her knock one before and that shocked me.


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## SO1 (10 January 2016)

Maybe they get some enjoyment out of it that makes it worth while so they are not looking at is as business but as something that makes them happy and if they can cover the costs then great if not they are enjoying doing it. They may enjoy choosing which mare goes to which stallion, seeing foals on the premises and growing up and perhaps taking them out to a few show in due time. They may also enjoy seeing the horses or ponies do well in the show ring or SJ or eventing or dressage making people happy as happy hackers or people on facebook and forums talking about how wonderful the horses they have bred are. 

Some people will also be wanting to breed that next HOYs or Badminton winner or Valegro for prestige and will take some losses along the way.

Others enjoy the challenge of training a young horse and they may enjoy going to the shows so it not such a chore or hardship to attend rather a pleasure.

Prices are based on supply and demand. There is not a massive demand for young horses from amateurs as they often want a horse that they can ride and do things with easily without having to train the horse first. Hence the reason that experienced sound easy competition horses or hacking horses between age 7-12 are harder to find and cost more.

Breeders are not all the same so you are going to get different prices and quality - some do it for money only, other for status, and others because they want to home bred out of beloved mare, others do is as it is part of their culture - hence you might get large numbers of gypsy cobs, or semi feral ponies on dartmoor or the new forest or welsh mountains or failed race horses. If all breeders aimed to make a profit you would end with a very different market for horses.

Why are some horses so cheap it will be because they are a lot of them eg failed race horses or young coloured cobs and not many people willing to take them on.



Cortez said:



			So you think that it is OK for breeders to lose money on their stock? The fact is that most breeders DO lose money (I gave up my stud farm for that very reason as I was not prepared to cut corners and was only interested in producing top quality), what bewilders me is why they would continue to breed if that is the case.
		
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## AdorableAlice (10 January 2016)

rachk89 said:



			If I was looking for just a hacking horse, like what I've described, I doubt I would pay more than £1500.

Like someone else put (cant remember who now), it depends on what the buyer is willing to pay isnt it? My price probably (well more than likely) not what you are looking for for her. But she would also suit someone who wants to do a bit of hunting, and maybe do some showing from the looks of her. Going on that basis, not being well versed in pricing, maybe £3500-£4000?

She is totally the type of horse I would love to have for hacking though. I like going on hacks in forests, but my horse is too wired to be calm the whole time. I love the big bulky cobs as well, my horse is so narrow in comparison.
		
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So £1500 buys a safe, sound and mannerly hack, if only it did.  I go buying with a lot of people, they seem to respect my judgement and my eye for a sound good type, which is lovely.  

The horse in the picture is not a show horse, as you can or should see, her limb is poor quality, she is common.  Look beyond the turn out, imagine what she really looks like.  She is not a hunter, she cannot safely jump more than a twig, although she is quite happy to crash through whatever gets in the way.  She is way too slow to keep up, although she tries her best.  She is typical of what hunt staff would ride for cubbing not hunting.

She is big and bulky but light as a feather on her feet and in her mouth, balanced uphill and oh so safe.  When she came to me she was a rude, dangerous and opinionated S H one T but I liked her stamp and paid a lot more than 1.5k for her. Her type and stamp are rare to find, she cannot be compared to the coloured cob types that are so prevalent.

You and others are totally right, a horse is only worth what someone will pay.  She will never come on the market, she fits my needs, I am old and injured.  She looks after me, so I guess she has no value because she is priceless.  Good job I love her, she could have gone down the road for 5.5 recently.

Here is another in the rough common cob, just a recently broken four year old.  Hacks, very sensible for his age and background, done 4 intro's 2 wins and 2 third places.  I paid £200 for him as a yearling.  He has cost at least 4k so far and in another year with a novice on his cv and more mature (he is a big horse) he will fetch a decent price.


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## AdorableAlice (10 January 2016)

Slightlyconfused said:



			I woul pay £3000 plus for her strictly because of my brother needed that type of horse. 

Saying that we have got a male version of her for £1500 direct from breeder so it's all swings and roundabouts on were in the country you are and I think what the breeder set up is.
		
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But you then made that 1.5 young horse into what you want remember.  His value will be much more now.


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## lauraandjack (10 January 2016)

It's a difficult one.

The simple fact is that not many of us have £5k plus to spend on a horse.  No matter how much we might like to.

Nor does the average rider need something with too much quality/top end breeding about it, to be honest.  I've done a fair bit of competing in my time, both unaff and low level BE and riding club areas, and the amount of people you see that are completely over-horsed (and not enjoying a minute of it) is unbelievable.

Riding is our hobby, it's supposed to be fun.  A lot of warmblood types are bred to be competition horses and ridden by professionals, not being ridden twice a week and doing a bit of prelim dressage every once in a while (when the owner is feeling brave enough to consider being bucked off in the warm up).

I've had an unbelievable amount of fun with my welsh cob.  Sure, he's never going to go round Badminton, but neither am I.  He's got plenty enough talent and ability to fulfil any of my competitive ambitions and will turn a hoof to anything I fancy trying.  But most of all he's safe and sensible, he loads easily, will stand on the box for hours if necessary, is polite to tack up/put studs in/wash off and is generally a pleasure to take out.  He's the same to ride whether you last rode yesterday or a month ago, and doesn't bat an eyelid in busy rings at a county show.

Yes there's a lot of dross at the very bottom end at the market, but there's still a place for the good old "heinz 57" safe and sensible sort for the leisure rider who just wants to go out and have fun - and not many people are going to pay upwards of 5 grand for it!


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## matt_m (10 January 2016)

I don't think anyone is saying that the horses shouldn't be worth more than what is being asked of them (or perhaps to word it better, that the horse market should be in a better place than it is) just that in the current situation, nothing is selling and you can get a good quality horse for little money. Why? Don't know.


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## JFTDWS (10 January 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Here is the horse that you describe above, an average cob.

100% in any traffic in front of the leg, nice mouth, 8 yr old.  15.2h,  Cubbed and done 4 days this season, sound, will jump a log if she has to. Laterally supple which is a necessary to be safe on the road and extremely comfortable.  Parks and coffee stops without question and you won't spill anything as she stands rock still.

What do you think she would fetch on the open market ?






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I'm not a cob person (I know, yet this inconsistency is such...) but I think that's a smart horse.  And a truly mannerly hunting cob - if as described - is worth a good price.  They're rare - I know, partly because I was recently involved in a friend's search for one.  I would expect this not to give much change from £5k, possibly significantly more, depending on conformation (which doesn't look perfect, but photos can be deceptive) and movement.  I wouldn't pay that for her, because it's not what I do, but I'm damned if I don't know people who would, happily.

I'd also like to second the importance of lateral work and finer schooling in a good hack.  A good hack isn't something you can switch off on, and bimble around without it decking you.  A good hack is a horse that can score 90s on a TREC PTV or could have a good stab an those Xtreme mountain trail courses - it's an animal which is solid in difficult environments and remains absolutely attentive to the aids, laterally responsive, neck reins, ground ties and generally has the manners of a gentleman, even when the circumstances are far from perfect.  I cannot abide the "hacks" some people term "safe" which are pig ignorant to any finer aid and about as laterally supple as the trunk of an average oak tree.


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## rachk89 (10 January 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			So £1500 buys a safe, sound and mannerly hack, if only it did.  I go buying with a lot of people, they seem to respect my judgement and my eye for a sound good type, which is lovely.  

The horse in the picture is not a show horse, as you can or should see, her limb is poor quality, she is common.  Look beyond the turn out, imagine what she really looks like.  She is not a hunter, she cannot safely jump more than a twig, although she is quite happy to crash through whatever gets in the way.  She is way too slow to keep up, although she tries her best.  She is typical of what hunt staff would ride for cubbing not hunting.

She is big and bulky but light as a feather on her feet and in her mouth, balanced uphill and oh so safe.  When she came to me she was a rude, dangerous and opinionated S H one T but I liked her stamp and paid a lot more than 1.5k for her. Her type and stamp are rare to find, she cannot be compared to the coloured cob types that are so prevalent.

You and others are totally right, a horse is only worth what someone will pay.  She will never come on the market, she fits my needs, I am old and injured.  She looks after me, so I guess she has no value because she is priceless.  Good job I love her, she could have gone down the road for 5.5 recently.
		
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Eh there are loads of people who like showing a horse for fun, they might want to take a horse out like that just for a day out really. Is pointless yes but some dont care about winning. Not many though, granted.

Its the kind of horse I will probably end up with when I lose my one. Hopefully I will keep him until he is very old and retired. By then, I will be in my 50's and I really dont think I will care anymore by then about competing. I can maybe look for my stubborn, black mare then for hacking. Its what I was wanting now but for dressage haha. Will find my replacement for Hannah and Cally eventually.


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## matt_m (10 January 2016)

I have an exceptionally well bred two year old pink papered & branded warmblood filly, beautifully put together and stunning paces - by a Grand Prix stallion and out of a dam line with some exceptionally well known horses, the dam-sire being very successful. I did not pay an arm and a leg for a young horse and wouldn't. Carl Hester rarely pays more than 2.5K for a youngster.


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## NZJenny (10 January 2016)

lauraandjack said:



			It's a difficult one.

The simple fact is that not many of us have £5k plus to spend on a horse.  No matter how much we might like to.

Nor does the average rider need something with too much quality/top end breeding about it, to be honest.  I've done a fair bit of competing in my time, both unaff and low level BE and riding club areas, and the amount of people you see that are completely over-horsed (and not enjoying a minute of it) is unbelievable.

Riding is our hobby, it's supposed to be fun.  A lot of warmblood types are bred to be competition horses and ridden by professionals, not being ridden twice a week and doing a bit of prelim dressage every once in a while (when the owner is feeling brave enough to consider being bucked off in the warm up).

I've had an unbelievable amount of fun with my welsh cob.  Sure, he's never going to go round Badminton, but neither am I.  He's got plenty enough talent and ability to fulfil any of my competitive ambitions and will turn a hoof to anything I fancy trying.  But most of all he's safe and sensible, he loads easily, will stand on the box for hours if necessary, is polite to tack up/put studs in/wash off and is generally a pleasure to take out.  He's the same to ride whether you last rode yesterday or a month ago, and doesn't bat an eyelid in busy rings at a county show.

Yes there's a lot of dross at the very bottom end at the market, but there's still a place for the good old "heinz 57" safe and sensible sort for the leisure rider who just wants to go out and have fun - and not many people are going to pay upwards of 5 grand for it!
		
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And this is exactly the type of horse that is rare as rocking horse poo here too, but they cost to produce.  I know - I have a four year old who is a WiP, but in 12 months time will be exactly that (and what I wanted!), but she will have cost me more than most are willing to pay.


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## spacefaer (10 January 2016)

My parents bought me a patent safety Heinz 57 15.3hh 8 yr old for £1800 in the 80s. They sold him 3 yrs later with a very good PC competition record for £4000. 

30 yrs later, he probably wouldn't be worth much more!


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## PapaFrita (10 January 2016)

Auslander said:



			I was being seedy!

To multiquote - click the litle black thingie next to "reply with quote" on both the posts that you want to quote, then hit "reply with quote on one of them 
Do one now so that I can be sure you've got it!!
		
Click to expand...




rachk89 said:



			Pfft he cant, you call that a horse?  *hides from beating*

In all honesty now, yours at times looks the way I expect, then he throws in a jump where it looks like he is gonna stick his head between his knees and I'm going 'Ah! head up, dont fall!'. 

There is a horse at the yard I am at that does jumping the way I am on about, its like he never looks at the jump. Yet he always knows what height it is and I've never seen him knock a fence yet. Jumping is his only skill though, he isnt so good at flat work and he doesnt like working properly and going round through his back. He just somehow manages to do well over 1m no problem. I think they were getting to 1.20 before he was silly and bruised his knee in the field. Its the same with a mare there, she does the same thing and she's done 1.20m before easily. She just flies over fences, only seen her knock one before and that shocked me.
		
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Run away! Run very fast!!
LC was 3 and he doesn't look at them like that any more. He's also hugely scopey and (this is not good) utterly fearless. His mother was the same and that's how I broke my collarbone; both of us going arse over tit because she would throw herself at a jump even if the stride was wrong (I have a video of that as well)
Lots of horses with less than perfect technique do OK up to 1.20m. A few freaks of nature do well much higher, but this is rare and a good bascule is very very coveted.
LC himself doesn't like flatwork, but we do it anyway. A lot. Jumping is 90% flatwork anyway; you need balance, rhythm and control, and if you think you don't... it won't end well.


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## Tern (10 January 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Here is another in the rough common cob, just a recently broken four year old.  Hacks, very sensible for his age and background, done 4 intro's 2 wins and 2 third places.  I paid £200 for him as a yearling..
		
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Poor Ted being called common.  I bet he doesn't think he's common. I need to catch up on the adventures of Ted!


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## TickyTavey (11 January 2016)

This thread made really interesting reading. I guess I have similar aspirations to the poster who put up those three videos. I'm a keen amateur, love hacking (!) and have aspirations of low level BE/BD. I've just paid 4.5k for an unproven but backed 4y/o with nice British breeding; sound, good movement for his type, decent jump, sane brain and trainable attitude. I don't think I've overpaid at all but guessing a lot of previous posters might disagree! 

This youngster is to eventually replace my current older horse who needs to slow down now. I paid 3.5k for him 3years ago. He is the consummate riding club type, won't set the world alight and will never grace a showring but has some foundation points be, hunting experience, will do a nice unaffiliated test and is a true Saint to hack - mannerly, forward going, just so much fun. I didn't appreciate at the time what a bargain he was. I would expect to pay at least double to replace him with a younger version. As it is, I think I paid a fair price for a blank canvas that will (hopefully!) eventually do all this.


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## Auslander (11 January 2016)

Really interesting thread. A bit of one upmanship going on about who bought the nicest horse for the least money, but hey, everyone loves a bargain!
My feeling is that there is a lot of excellent breeding of top quality animals in this country, and there is a lot of breeding of bin-end animals at the other end of the spectrum. I think that what is needed is a more structured approach to middle of the range breeding - carefully considered breeding of nice all rounders, who aren't going to set the world on fire, but who are capable of doing the job that is required by most mortals, and doing it safely and sensibly. 

I think I win on the "who bought the nicest horse for the least money" competition anyway...


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## JFTDWS (11 January 2016)

Auslander said:



			I think I win on the "who bought the nicest horse for the least money" competition anyway...
		
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Yes, that shitland of yours is very cute...  How much was he?


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## Auslander (11 January 2016)

JFTD said:



			Yes, that shitland of yours is very cute...  How much was he?
		
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You KNOW I'm talking about Alf!!


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## TickyTavey (11 January 2016)

Yes, everyone does love a bargain ;-) I guess my point is that my market is middle of the road, all rounder types and I think c.5k fair. Perhaps I'm just a mug though!!


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## JFTDWS (11 January 2016)

Auslander said:



			You KNOW I'm talking about Alf!!
		
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*sniggers*


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## Golden_Match_II (11 January 2016)

I just want to defend the horse that is supposedly on the forehand and a weird jumper, don't really care about whether people bought a unicorn for £100!  I don't usually get cheap horses and all have been lovely people, so not bothered that I paid more than 4 magic beans for them 

That horse in the video was going beautifully and was clearly well schooled and beautifully balanced despite having no contact at all. I'd happily pay between 3-5k for it, and I don't think the sellers are outrageous in asking for that - it looks a nice calm person and would easily get round BE90/100!


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## Auslander (11 January 2016)

TickyTavey said:



			Yes, everyone does love a bargain ;-) I guess my point is that my market is middle of the road, all rounder types and I think c.5k fair. Perhaps I'm just a mug though!!
		
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I don't think so. 5k to me is spot on for a nice all-rounder


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## Orangehorse (11 January 2016)

Auslander said:



			Really interesting thread. A bit of one upmanship going on about who bought the nicest horse for the least money, but hey, everyone loves a bargain!
My feeling is that there is a lot of excellent breeding of top quality animals in this country, and there is a lot of breeding of bin-end animals at the other end of the spectrum. I think that what is needed is a more structured approach to middle of the range breeding - carefully considered breeding of nice all rounders, who aren't going to set the world on fire, but who are capable of doing the job that is required by most mortals, and doing it safely and sensibly. 

I think I win on the "who bought the nicest horse for the least money" competition anyway...
		
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It is actually very, very hard to buy an ordinary, well schooled horse that will hack by itself or in company and has no stable manners issues.  Time and time again we hear of people saying "I don't want a Badminton horse, all I want is a riding club all rounder."  Whether it is that people don't want to pay enough for that sort of horse, or whether the "ordinary" horse doesn't get the care and attention I do not know.

A lot of the old "nagsmen" would turn out horses like this, probably most of them would go on to be local hunters.  I had a mare once who was a grumpy horse but I always said that who ever had broken her in to ride had done a 100% job and it meant that despite her drawbacks, she would always find a home.  I also followed the long career of a local horse that through no fault of its own, changed hands several times, but once again, as he had been correctly and carefully broken in and schooled, in his 20s he found a wonderful last home taking a lady hunting.

It is down to over breeding, incorrect breaking and schooling (too many people just wanting rid of).  Hard to know what the solution is.


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## Luci07 (11 January 2016)

Having read the entire thread, far from being a thread which is snobby and looks down on unknown breeding/low price, I think it comes across as the opposite.

I do play great store on breeding. I have been around long enough to know that traits are passed along,  which lines to avoid as they produce talented but quirky etc. There was a comment earlier about Sam Barr and the Welton horses and 5k was the minimum he needed to break even, but he would also be factoring that he would put down horses that didn't make the mark. What no one has pointed out here is that not every foal is healthy (a lot are hell bent on damaging themselves) and there is many a slip between foal and a produced 4 year old. 

I paid a lot more than is being mooted on this page but was realistic. I wanted the holy grail to event, so 16.2 plus, 6-8 year old gelding with the beginnings of a BE record and properly proven in all disciplines. He had to be straightforward, well made and an amateur ride.  Turned out to be an excellent hack as well but that was a happy accident. He is worth every bit of money I paid for him as I have a horse I genuinely love riding and caring for and he puts a smile on my face each day when I see him.


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## tristar (11 January 2016)

I believe there is a big gap out there, I am not breeding at the moment although I have a stallion 15.2 hh, if I was I would be breeding from him horses around 15 to 16.2 hh  absolute max, they would have top bloodlines and the right attitude to work, with the ability to relax and offer work and not too big, and essentially bold and willing to face the world, performance record would not concern me if the background breeding is right, and soundness is everything, oh and stunningly beautiful because I want it all in one horse, and this is the horse that can do it all, compete or equally be someone`s treasure and best friend.


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## Slightly Foxed (11 January 2016)

^^This


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## kassieg (11 January 2016)

tristar said:



			I believe there is a big gap out there, I am not breeding at the moment although I have a stallion 15.2 hh, if I was I would be breeding from him horses around 15 to 16.2 hh  absolute max, they would have top bloodlines and the right attitude to work, with the ability to relax and offer work and not too big, and essentially bold and willing to face the world, performance record would not concern me if the background breeding is right, and soundness is everything, oh and stunningly beautiful because I want it all in one horse, and this is the horse that can do it all, compete or equally be someone`s treasure and best friend.
		
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Lend him to my mares please?


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## spacefaer (11 January 2016)

Orangehorse said:



			It is actually very, very hard to buy an ordinary, well schooled horse that will hack by itself or in company and has no stable manners issues.  Time and time again we hear of people saying "I don't want a Badminton horse, all I want is a riding club all rounder."  Whether it is that people don't want to pay enough for that sort of horse, or whether the "ordinary" horse doesn't get the care and attention I do not know
		
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I tried to produce 15.2-16hh allrounders for a time. Hardest thing I've ever done.  Bought them as 4/5 yr olds, took them to local shows, hunter trials, unaff ODEs, hunting - whatever it took to make them nice.  Put them on the market - the fussiest, pickiest, most difficult buyers I've ever had to please.  I'd never do it again.

I know there is a market for the lovely, easy, riding club allrounder type, and there are loads of potential buyers out there, but I found it a very difficult market.

ETA the increase in popularity of fun rides has put added pressure on these lovely "ordinary" horses - I think it's one of the hardest questions to ask of a horse, to behave well on a fun ride.  There are very few that will walk calmly, with ponies/teenagers galloping past, horses disappearing from sight in front of them, random jumping - it's a big ask! Some of our hunters would be very horrid if we took them on one!


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## AdorableAlice (11 January 2016)

spacefaer said:



			I tried to produce 15.2-16hh allrounders for a time. Hardest thing I've ever done.  Bought them as 4/5 yr olds, took them to local shows, hunter trials, unaff ODEs, hunting - whatever it took to make them nice.  Put them on the market - the fussiest, pickiest, most difficult buyers I've ever had to please.  I'd never do it again.

I know there is a market for the lovely, easy, riding club allrounder type, and there are loads of potential buyers out there, but I found it a very difficult market.

ETA the increase in popularity of fun rides has put added pressure on these lovely "ordinary" horses - I think it's one of the hardest questions to ask of a horse, to behave well on a fun ride.  There are very few that will walk calmly, with ponies/teenagers galloping past, horses disappearing from sight in front of them, random jumping - it's a big ask! Some of our hunters would be very horrid if we took them on one!
		
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Made even more difficult when people think 1.5 k will buy one.


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## ihatework (11 January 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Made even more difficult when people think 1.5 k will buy one.
		
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Sniggers in despair! It's all too true.


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## PapaFrita (11 January 2016)

Auslander said:



			I don't think so. 5k to me is spot on for a nice all-rounder
		
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For a properly produces all-rounder, absolutely. I, sadly, am skint. Less sadly, I like working with young horses, so have never spent more than 2k (Fortinero) on a horse. To think I nearly sold him!!!


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## spacefaer (11 January 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Made even more difficult when people think 1.5 k will buy one.
		
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This was in the early 90s and I was asking (and getting!) between £4,500 and £6,000 for them. 

Depressing, isn't it!


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## Leo Walker (11 January 2016)

I bought mine for £500 and paid over the odds for a 2yr old cob. I did it as hes a nice example of his type, was what I was looking for and was in a bad situation. Before I broke my back and ended up fat, crippled and useless I would have made him on my own with minimal effort. It was a bit of a shock to me to find that I was no longer capable of doing that. Pre accident I would have considered him on of the easiest horses I've ever owned. 

Because I'm such a stubborn sod and I adore him I have and still am pouring money into turning him into what I want and need. Even without the general day to day costs, I reckon I could have bought myself a really classy RC allrounder for the money I've spent. I dont mind as I adore him, and just see it as an investment and love just having him around 

The problems start when people think they can take a cheap, young, green horse and turn it into a nice RC allrounder then find out they cant. I suppose I was lucky in that I'd done it before and realised this time I wasnt physically capable, looked about at what I could get if I sold him, and decided to keep him and work with him. Lots of people dont realise its their problem not the horses. 

I could buy a 100 more of him for way less than £500, and like I said if I was still a competent person I could easily turn them into the nice low level RC allrounders, who are easy to keep and hack anywhere sort of horses. But I lack that skill now, and sadly so do almost all of the people I see buying the cheap horses. 

And therein lies the problem! There are lots and lot and LOTS of cheap horses, but very, very few people with the ability to turn them into the 5k horses that everyone wants!


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## cornbrodolly (12 January 2016)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			This. I'm another who wouldn't pay that sort of money for a horse. 

Horses are cheap because there are lots of them. 

As for another post about breeders making a loss, not the ones I know. They rent the land and would pay the same whether there's 2 horses or 20 on it. They own the mares and stallion. Beyond very basic horse care there are no bills. I think their main vet cost is castration. They ride themselves and will ride whatever hasn't been sold yet, until one day it is. They have ponies and cobs with nice temperaments which have been used for hacking and are easy keepers, surviving with minimal care. Something plenty of people want. It's easy money for them. They certainly don't need to charge 5k to make a profit.
		
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And this is the reason we dont breed anymore........
So, keeping mares and a stallion , and the offspring for approx 4 years , plus ALL the work involved in handling,backing,bringing on , you then expect cheap horses?  How much would you charge per hour if you needed to make a profit? How much to buy nice mares, a stallion graded by a recognised society [ or stud fees or A I fees] , all the forage, feed,  vet,etc etc? 
Its the middle range breeder , as we were , that have stopped breeding  entirely. So what type of horse will be left in a few years ?
 Sports horses and Tb s , cheap if they have been messed up, very expensive if they are doing well. 
Low end horses/ponies indifferent in conformation and usefulness. 
 Foreign bred horses from eastern Europe , where it is cheaper to breed and keep [ £ against their currency]
To cover costs 20 years ago it was reckoned [ by us breeders ha ha] that a foal cost £1000 to get on the ground and a £1000  per year till he was ready to go as a backed and going 4 yr old. 
We now gladly buy youngsters at decent prices [to show and bring on] ,knowing the breeder hasnt made a bean.


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## cundlegreen (12 January 2016)

cornbrodolly said:



			And this is the reason we dont breed anymore........
So, keeping mares and a stallion , and the offspring for approx 4 years , plus ALL the work involved in handling,backing,bringing on , you then expect cheap horses?  How much would you charge per hour if you needed to make a profit? How much to buy nice mares, a stallion graded by a recognised society [ or stud fees or A I fees] , all the forage, feed,  vet,etc etc? 
Its the middle range breeder , as we were , that have stopped breeding  entirely. So what type of horse will be left in a few years ?
 Sports horses and Tb s , cheap if they have been messed up, very expensive if they are doing well. 
Low end horses/ponies indifferent in conformation and usefulness. 
 Foreign bred horses from eastern Europe , where it is cheaper to breed and keep [ £ against their currency]
To cover costs 20 years ago it was reckoned [ by us breeders ha ha] that a foal cost £1000 to get on the ground and a £1000  per year till he was ready to go as a backed and going 4 yr old. 
We now gladly buy youngsters at decent prices [to show and bring on] ,knowing the breeder hasnt made a bean.
		
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Another like you, Cornbrodolly. I gave up small time breeding 5 years ago, due to not being able to get £1,000 for a goodlooking foal that had scored highly at the BEF Futurity. I have the stallion here, but can't run everything on until 4 years old due to wet ground. Even with using my stallion I doubt I made anything, and when I did send a mare away, as you said, it cost me £1,000 before the foal was even born. If people want a horse that is just about bombproof to handle, stands, is nice in the mouth, non spooky, good in traffic, and will jump a fence as well as being good looking, they WILL have to pay good money as horses are just not produced correctly in a lot of cases nowadays. I have an irish mare here that I bought unbroken as a 3 year old for a lot less than I could get one on the ground here. She is now rising 6, and all of the above. Exceptionally good natured about everything, but the only way I will get what she is worth, is to pay somebody to event her for me, and that adds a great deal of cost.
I recently sent away a big young horse to be broken by my event rider, and it cost me £1200, and he wasn't there that long. If you want a nice horse that ticks all the boxes, AND passes a vet, then I think they are rare. I personally have found that people prefer buying off a breeder, as they then know all the horse's breeding and history.


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## Holding (12 January 2016)

I would like to know where everyone is finding these cheap horses! I'm (casually, as not ready to buy quite yet) looking for a 5/6 year old that is sane and sensible enough to hack, will pop a small course and has three good paces to do affiliated dressage to a decent but not super high level, and I would be amazed to find one for 5k. Everything I like seems to be in the 10-15k region - not sure where all these incredible bargain horses are coming from!


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## tristar (12 January 2016)

I believe if it doesn't make a good price there is a reason, generally it is not good enough, people are not stupid, if you are breeding something good enough the horse will sell itself, because it will stand out,  be it middle of the road or better

its a kind of litmus test of success if I get offers to buy.

er


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## thatsmygirl (12 January 2016)

tristar said:



			I believe if it doesn't make a good price there is a reason, generally it is not good enough, people are not stupid, if you are breeding something good enough the horse will sell itself, because it will stand out,  be it middle of the road or better

its a kind of litmus test of success if I get offers to buy.

er
		
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What like my £800 mare who hasn't had a days lameness in 13 yrs and hunts/team chases and jumps anything. These  cheap horses can be totally fine and cheap because the owners aren't experienced and can't get any potential out the horse and that's what I look for when I buy, the owner was to scared to go in the field with the mare and had just brought her not long ago for a fair bit of money but wanted rid. Best horse iv ever had and she will stay with me until the end


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## Orangehorse (12 January 2016)

Someone I know runs a dressage yard and competes at a high level, although she has all sorts for lessons and will help anyone.  She had a horse into sell, that was a good allrounder but wouldn't make a dressage competition horse.  She advertised it at what she thought was a reasonable price, and didn't have an enquiry.  So she waited a bit and advertised it again at double the price and it sold straight away.


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## ihatework (12 January 2016)

Orangehorse said:



			Someone I know runs a dressage yard and competes at a high level, although she has all sorts for lessons and will help anyone.  She had a horse into sell, that was a good allrounder but wouldn't make a dressage competition horse.  She advertised it at what she thought was a reasonable price, and didn't have an enquiry.  So she waited a bit and advertised it again at double the price and it sold straight away.
		
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I've done that a couple of times!! Advertised around the 3/3.5k mark, dealt with the lower class (for want of a better word) of delusional buyers - added 2k to the price and hey presto horses sold to good homes!!


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## thatsmygirl (12 January 2016)

ihatework said:



			I've done that a couple of times!! Advertised around the 3/3.5k mark, dealt with the lower class (for want of a better word) of delusional buyers - added 2k to the price and hey presto horses sold to good homes!!
		
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The way you have worded that makes you sound so stuck up, sorry.
So if £3000/£3500 is " the lower class" what class am I paying £800 for a 1st class horse as iv stated above. Maybe one who knows what they are looking at and won't waste my hard earned money or believe the higher price means a better class animal which isn't always the case.


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## ihatework (12 January 2016)

thatsmygirl said:



			The way you have worded that makes you sound so stuck up, sorry.
So if £3000/£3500 is " the lower class" what class am I paying £800 for a 1st class horse as iv stated above. Maybe one who knows what they are looking at and won't waste my hard earned money or believe the higher price means a better class animal which isn't always the case.
		
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Apologies, I knew when I wrote it it would sound awful and I didn't mean it to.
In no way way I meaning class system , I meant more the quality/ability of a buyer to know a good from bad horse and not expect a machine with full wardrobe and delivery included!


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## thatsmygirl (12 January 2016)

ihatework said:



			Apologies, I knew when I wrote it it would sound awful and I didn't mean it to.
In no way way I meaning class system , I meant more the quality/ability of a buyer to know a good from bad horse and not expect a machine with full wardrobe and delivery included!
		
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Sometimes when you write things down it doesn't come across right  maybe your not stuck up then


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## TGM (12 January 2016)

Holding said:



			I would like to know where everyone is finding these cheap horses! I'm (casually, as not ready to buy quite yet) looking for a 5/6 year old that is sane and sensible enough to hack, will pop a small course and has three good paces to do affiliated dressage to a decent but not super high level, and I would be amazed to find one for 5k. Everything I like seems to be in the 10-15k region - not sure where all these incredible bargain horses are coming from!
		
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Because, I suspect, the 'cheap horses' mentioned on this thread were not bought at the stage that they were already doing all these things.  You can easily find 'cheap' horses who MAY (or may not) be capable of going on to hack sensibly on their own, jump well, be capable of respectable scores at affiliated dressage etc.  What is harder to find, and more expensive to buy, are horses who are PROVEN to do these things, without having any other price-limiting factors such as sarcoids, minor unsoundnesses, stable vices, etc.


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## cbmcts (12 January 2016)

TGM said:



			Because, I suspect, the 'cheap horses' mentioned on this thread were not bought at the stage that they were already doing all these things.  You can easily find 'cheap' horses who MAY (or may not) be capable of going on to hack sensibly on their own, jump well, be capable of respectable scores at affiliated dressage etc.  What is harder to find, and more expensive to buy, are horses who are PROVEN to do these things, without having any other price-limiting factors such as sarcoids, minor unsoundnesses, stable vices, etc.
		
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This is so true - I could go and buy a horse(as could anyone else to be fair) that has potential to become a very useful type but needs work. I've done that in the past successfully. These days I need someone else to do the hard work so the purchase price has to include that and you also have to recognise the costs and time that go into making a sane, sensible horse aren't cheap if done well.

Personally I wouldn't want to pay a huge premium for breeding but that's because I'm not competing or interested in breeding my own but we do need to keep quality up unless we want horses to settle to the lowest common denominator. And from what I've seen the only way breeders can make money, or at least cover costs in the middle market is to hold onto their foals and produce them to sell as 5/6 year olds.

I have great admiration for those that can take a cheap(er) horse and produce it themselves but I've learnt my limitations the hard way so I have to expect to pay the premium that these RC/happy hackers command. And I don't begruge it a bit...


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## Bernster (12 January 2016)

cbmcts said:



			I have great admiration for those that can take a cheap(er) horse and produce it themselves but I've learnt my limitations the hard way so I have to expect to pay the premium that these RC/happy hackers command. And I don't begruge it a bit...
		
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Haven't caught up on all the latest posts on this thread, but def agree with this.


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## MagicMelon (13 January 2016)

There's plenty of cheap horses about that are often just as good as the expensive ones (especially if like me, people don't mind putting some work into the horse).  I have never bought a "well bred" horse, I mean I've ended up with well bred ones but I would never buy specifically for breeding.  I buy based on temperament so as long as thats in place and they are sound etc. then I'm happy, and there's plenty of cheap ones that fit the  bill.  Lots of rubbish too obviously but if you know what to look for then you can get a bargain and who doesnt like a bargain?  I think it is very sad that breeders cant get the prices they deserve, it must be a very tough life doing it!


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## monkeynut (13 January 2016)

It's frustrating. I am currently trying to sell my 4yr old ISH, he's a quality lad with potential to make a cracking eventer but I have had no interest in him other than someone say they would give me £500 for him (!) he's up for 2k but it seems everyone wants a cheapy.


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## be positive (13 January 2016)

monkeynut said:



			It's frustrating. I am currently trying to sell my 4yr old ISH, he's a quality lad with potential to make a cracking eventer but I have had no interest in him other than someone say they would give me £500 for him (!) he's up for 2k but it seems everyone wants a cheapy.
		
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If he is 5 this year and riding nicely ready to go on this season then I would wait a month, put in as much work as possible, get some really good photos and double the price, 2k is cheap in my mind for a horse bred to event and ready to get on with, if he is only 4 this time then I would probably still be thinking 3-3.5k to attract someone looking for a horse to bring on but it may still be a bit early in the year to get much interest.


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## monkeynut (13 January 2016)

be positive said:



			If he is 5 this year and riding nicely ready to go on this season then I would wait a month, put in as much work as possible, get some really good photos and double the price, 2k is cheap in my mind for a horse bred to event and ready to get on with, if he is only 4 this time then I would probably still be thinking 3-3.5k to attract someone looking for a horse to bring on but it may still be a bit early in the year to get much interest.
		
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Thanks, he's unbroken (lunged, long reined and worn tack etc) 4 this year.
He's a lovely kind boy but my son is in and out of hospital so I don't have the time to put the work in. Totally genuine sale but no one is interested!


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## ihatework (13 January 2016)

monkeynut said:



			It's frustrating. I am currently trying to sell my 4yr old ISH, he's a quality lad with potential to make a cracking eventer but I have had no interest in him other than someone say they would give me £500 for him (!) he's up for 2k but it seems everyone wants a cheapy.
		
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For people looking for a 4yo ISH to produce to event 2k would be considered very cheap.
If he is backed, reasonable looking, reasonable confo and straight enough moving, with no major vices or hang ups then this is precisely the scenario whereby a bit of elbow grease, some time spent on decent photos, a well worded advert and a doubled price tag might yield you a much easier sale!

At 2k I'd be interested to see your current advert if possible. I've been toying with the idea of buying something for the summer.


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## Llanali (13 January 2016)

^^ I think he's too cheap. I would advertise at 3k as something prepared for backing but not yet ridden away. If he is capable as you say, I would expect £4k if broken and riding away. Sorry to hear your son is unwell, I wish him a speedy and full recovery x


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## catkin (13 January 2016)

The thing that worries me most about so many good breeders giving up is not just the dearth of good horses that will be available in years to come but also the knowledge of bloodlines and history of the breed that goes with those people. I've now bought a couple of horses as youngsters directly from their breeders and the sharing of their knowledge by these people has been valuable over and above any premium on the price of the individual horse. There's something intangible yet priceless about having a horse with a heritage even if you are not ever wishing to breed yourself. 

and for those who say 'oh I only want a hack etc...' - well, the best hacks/pleasure horses I've had over the past 40 odd years have actually been the well-bred ones, not just because of their undeniable beauty looking over the stable door at you each morning, but also that extra presence, cleverness, and enjoyment of having fun with a nice horse. That might sound a bit romantic, fluffy or perhaps snobby to some of you - if you've ever been lucky enough to share your life with a well-bred horse you'll know what I mean about that 'extra-ness' that's worth over and above any premium on purchase price.


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## tristar (13 January 2016)

oh catkin what a great post! love that extra-ness!

my lad goes back the polish arab comet, he is so like him, I feel honoured to have a piece of such a great stallion, gives me goosebumps just to think about it.


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## Luci07 (13 January 2016)

This is depressing reading. There has been quite a bit written recently whereby breeders are seeing a real lack of horses available in the middle market. Short term, the market can push prices down but long term, when these breeders have voted with their feet and are no longer doing this, prices will shoot up. I see prices for event horses in the US and I don't think I would ever be able to afford a horse over there.

When all is said and done, there is no such thing as a cheap horse. If you have been able to start the process off with a low cost horse and can make it into what you want, you really should factor in the cost of your experience to be able to do this. What is the final product and what is that worth?


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## kassieg (13 January 2016)

ihatework said:



			For people looking for a 4yo ISH to produce to event 2k would be considered very cheap.
If he is backed, reasonable looking, reasonable confo and straight enough moving, with no major vices or hang ups then this is precisely the scenario whereby a bit of elbow grease, some time spent on decent photos, a well worded advert and a doubled price tag might yield you a much easier sale!

At 2k I'd be interested to see your current advert if possible. I've been toying with the idea of buying something for the summer.
		
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monkeynut said:



			It's frustrating. I am currently trying to sell my 4yr old ISH, he's a quality lad with potential to make a cracking eventer but I have had no interest in him other than someone say they would give me £500 for him (!) he's up for 2k but it seems everyone wants a cheapy.
		
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I agree 2k is too cheap for him!
I'd be putting him at 3.5k expecting 3k

Anyone looking to produce a nice young eventer would happily pay that for some good breeding, a nicely put together horse that has been started well


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## Lulup (14 March 2016)

Just reading this post with interest as I am currently horse hunting - I probably wouldn't bother to look at a nice looking, event bred 4yo advertised for 2k because I'm happy to pay decent money in return for a decent horse and generally you get what you pay for so I'd be expecting the common scenario of driving (probably half way across the country) to find something that barely matches the description or that is being sold as 'unbacked' when in fact several have tried/failed and the real description should read 'unbackable'! Sadly you have to be really suspicious when buying and believe nothing that you're told - check everything for yourself. I do a sensible amount of Internet 'snooping' because I don't want too many wasted trips and it's amazing what you uncover! I feel disheartened that genuine breeders of quality horses cannot command the prices required when people like me cannot find what we are looking for among the masses of dealers offering cheap young horses that apparently will 'reach the top in any discipline' and 'aren't phased by anything'! I would be happy to hear from any of you decent breeders who have nicely bred 4/5/6 year olds who have had a decent start and are sane and friendly enough to be produced by an amateur and will in return be loved/pampered for life


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## DirectorFury (14 March 2016)

I was horse shopping but now have 'the fear' after seeing a horse on the yard be sold for £4k and pass a vetting (2 stage), despite recurring lameness problems that the seller did not disclose. The horse was cheap for what the advert claimed, even though many statements were untrue.

Out of interest, what price would people expect to pay for the following. 3-4yo, unbacked, to make 16hh - 16.3hh, some sort of ISH/SF/WB x TB. Colour and gender not really a concern, but I'd prefer a mare. Good confo and a nice 'person', but I don't mind if it's not had much done on the ground. I'm not looking for a world-beater, something that could get round Novice BE in a few years would be a bonus. Current budget of £6k but I'm thinking I need to increase it! Happy to go to Ireland or the continent.


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## ihatework (14 March 2016)

DirectorFury said:



			I was horse shopping but now have 'the fear' after seeing a horse on the yard be sold for £4k and pass a vetting (2 stage), despite recurring lameness problems that the seller did not disclose. The horse was cheap for what the advert claimed, even though many statements were untrue.

Out of interest, what price would people expect to pay for the following. 3-4yo, unbacked, to make 16hh - 16.3hh, some sort of ISH/SF/WB x TB. Colour and gender not really a concern, but I'd prefer a mare. Good confo and a nice 'person', but I don't mind if it's not had much done on the ground. I'm not looking for a world-beater, something that could get round Novice BE in a few years would be a bonus. Current budget of £6k but I'm thinking I need to increase it! Happy to go to Ireland or the continent.
		
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If you head over to Ireland with £6K (especially if you time it right with a good euro exchange) you will get a nice raw 3-4yo for that and likely the type of breed mix you are thinking as well. Seems to be a lot of ISH crossed with warmblood a that have Irish passport. 
To be fair, you should find what you want in England, dealers like Irish horse imports have a lot of miderate quality 3-4k types but do bring over the odd one that is better


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## Rollin (14 March 2016)

Lulup said:



			Just reading this post with interest as I am currently horse hunting - I probably wouldn't bother to look at a nice looking, event bred 4yo advertised for 2k because I'm happy to pay decent money in return for a decent horse and generally you get what you pay for so I'd be expecting the common scenario of driving (probably half way across the country) to find something that barely matches the description or that is being sold as 'unbacked' when in fact several have tried/failed and the real description should read 'unbackable'! Sadly you have to be really suspicious when buying and believe nothing that you're told - check everything for yourself. I do a sensible amount of Internet 'snooping' because I don't want too many wasted trips and it's amazing what you uncover! I feel disheartened that genuine breeders of quality horses cannot command the prices required when people like me cannot find what we are looking for among the masses of dealers offering cheap young horses that apparently will 'reach the top in any discipline' and 'aren't phased by anything'! I would be happy to hear from any of you decent breeders who have nicely bred 4/5/6 year olds who have had a decent start and are sane and friendly enough to be produced by an amateur and will in return be loved/pampered for life 

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Ditto this.  I am now getting too old to run on our youngsters so will stop breeding horses next year.  We have a 6 year old home bred Shagya for sale, her full brother is graded for two stud books.  Her pedigree is A1.  She competed 7 times as a 5 year old at 95cm, 4 clear rounds, 4 four faults and 8 faults first time out.  She has been professional produced and now jumping clear at 1.05cm.  I get lots of people ringing up looking for a cheap horse.  I want 10,000 euros for her which does not give me a profit at all.  We purchased her dam from the Hungarian National Stud, including the mare's time in foal this for the breeder is an up front investment of 7 years, with no expense spared.  Can you keep a horse for 7 years for £20/week?  No.

I see the same with our other rare breed, the Cleveland Bay, we would collect from our QA stallion except we would never recover the vet , collection and storage fees from semen sales.

As someone has already said, good breeders give up and there will continue to be hundreds of heinz 57's available for less than I would pay in stud fees. 

Do not mis-understand this is not sour grapes, we are proud of what we breed but we do it for love.


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## Charmel (14 March 2016)

My major bugbear with people wanting to buy a horse and pay very little money is when they say "well, she only paid ?? for it and now a year later want more than double the price" or how can it be worth that when they only paid ?? for it. A friend of mine bought a cheap unbroken barely halter broken but registered Welsh x WB 4.5 year old gelding. She worked very hard breaking him in, teaching him to load attended numerous schooling sessions. Then started competing from 60cm and eventually up to 1m tracks successfully. Dressage scores over 70% and over. Plus he hunts calmly and hacks out alone or company pretty much anywhere. What more he is a very striking horse to look at. He is now 6 and she wants to sell him on as never was meant to be a long term prospect and she is too tall for him she is 5,11 and he is just 15.2H. All she has had is grief from people who believe his £3k price tag is too high as she only paid £400 for him. She has had offers of about £800.


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