# Forage n Fiber & Solution Mash



## SCMSL (24 March 2013)

Who has fed Solution Mash to their horses? Did you like it? 

I don't have any low starch and low sugar feeds in my area (Lisbon/Portugal) so I contacted Rowen Barbary and ordered a truck of Solution Mash, Forage n Fiber, Sumo MB and Sumo Original. While I'm waiting for it to arrive, I would like to know what people think of these products. 

She is the hardest keeper I've ever seen, currently eating (divided by 6 meals): 
- 1,5kg of Main Ring Gold 
- 1,5kg of Pavo Condition 
- 1kg Alfalfa cubes 
- 3kg Alfa A Original 
- 3kg bran 
- 100mL of Linseed Oil 
This is a diet I am not very happy about, and thus the change. However, it is very calorie dense and I'm afraid she'll drop weight again on this new one.

We have dabbled with quite a bit of ulcer issues, plus I'm trying to make the change to barefoot. She is very big, but has been consistently under her ideal weight, no matter how much food I get into her. I feel the main issue is I can't source out a good quality hay (she doesn't have a terrible one right now, but its not great either) and I feel she doesn't eat enough of it - she has it ad lib but only eats 5kg in 24h tops.

New diet will consist of the following:
1) Bucket feed: horses at the yard are fed 3 times a day and as such I don't want her to have to watch the others eating without having something for herself. So, each feed will consist of 0,5kg of Forage and Fiber and 100g of Alfa A acting both as stomach buffer and chaff.
2) Mash: This is where I'm hoping the calories will come in. Too buckets of Mash, first one consisting of 2kg of Solution Mash, 1kg of Alfalfa cubes and 1kg of Sumo MB and second one with 2kg of Solution Mash, 2kg of Alfalfa cubes and 0,5kg of Sumo Original.

Any reviews on any of these products would be greatly appreciated. If you feed any of them, please state the amount per day.

ETA: Will continue feeding the linseed oil


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## whizzer (24 March 2013)

I've been using solution mash,did take him a while to decide he liked it & but took to it after a few weeks. I think it smells lovely, he kept weight on well over the winter(poor doing TB who's had ulcers a few times) & he coped fine with it(unlike the ready mash extra which practically sent him into orbit!)


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## whizzer (24 March 2013)

Eta not sure of amount as I filled a bin with the sol mash,speedibeet & top spec cubes & just soaked it a scoop at a time! Had to mix it with other stuff to get him to eat it initially & as he then liked this mixture so much I didn't want to mess with anything!


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## tryinghard (24 March 2013)

I tried the solution mash for one of mine who is a poor doer and ulcer prone, but he wouldnt even try it. Luckily the others loved it and finished the bag lol. I like the concept, found the ingredients interesting, and really thought it would work if he ate it!


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## SCMSL (24 March 2013)

Yep, I've been reading its an "acquired taste" for the horse quite a lot. My mare is the finickiest horse I've ever owner, or even dealt with for that matter. She apparently hates every food apart from straw (yep, her bedding) but will sometimes indulge me and eat her hay. This is a horse that may decide that this week, she will not eat one single pellet of her bucket feed. 

I did, however, find out she loves Alfalfa, and anything I mix into it she will eat. I started out using Alfa A but its so expensive here, so I've recently made the switch to Alfalfa cubes and it has worked great.


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## Holly Hocks (24 March 2013)

Mine ate Readymash extra like a hoover, but wouldn't touch the Solutions Mash - even the native wasn't too keen on it!


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## Angelbones (24 March 2013)

Hi,

The first thing I'd say is that the meal sizes are way too big - the stomach is only the size of a rugby ball (approx, and isn't stretchy) and can really only take a meal of no larger than 2Kg at any one time. So little and often is far better than 2 or even 3 big ones.

You don't say how much your horse weighs, how big she is or what work you do with her.  In general, if in light work (hacking, schooling etc) a horse needs to eat 2% of its bodyweight, eg a 500kg horse will require 10kg of feed, dry matter weight, with forage comprising a minimum of 70% of the ration. 

Generally a horse in light work can be maintained on a forage only diet, which can be supplemented with a forage balancer; a broad spectrum vit and mineral additive if needed - which sounds like your hay might , and if required due to being underweight etc with no more than 30% of the ration being made up of highly degradable fibre sources such as sugar beet pulp, Alfalfa or some oil if looking to up the energy content. Oil is very energy dense but is a slow release energy so won't cause fizziness that may come with feeding high starch diets.

You mention ulcers - feeding high fibre will be your horse's best friend. Fibre is the basis for good gut health, and really a horse with ulcers would require a high fibre, low starch low sugar diet which is also, I believe, ideal for the barefoot horse (search other threads on here for the barefoot diet recommendations).

Solution Mash is great stuff - low n starch, high in oil and good for fibre. I've used it, with success on two skinny TB eventers. Mine ate it easily but some don't. 

Haven't tried the Forage n Fiber but can't really see the point of it in your weight gain plan other than it being good for fibre levels. It's a feed I'd give to a good doer rather than wanting to put weight on something.

The Sumo Original is basically oil and the 0.5Kg you intend to feed is correct for a 500Kg horse, but you won't need the linseed as well. You ideally don't want to feed any more oil than 500ml for a 500Kg horse so it may be worth working out how much would be included in the new feed plan in case it is substantially over that. Of course it can always be dropped down when the required weight is reached.

The Sumo MB is again high in starch in my opinion, and is yet another way of getting oil into your horse's diet. If you read their recommended feeding guidelines; up to 25% of the horse's daily concentrate ration, and assuming that to be 30% of the daily feed requirement then really you won't be adding much of it at all and it could easily be switched for just a little more of the other oil containing feeds you'll be feeding already.

I just get the feeling when I read the list of feeds that they double up on each other and over complicate things. I don't know anything about most of the items on your current feed list to be able to compare energy / starch / oil / fibre quantities v the new feed list, other than to say  yes to dropping the bran, it has no nutritional value worth mentioning and is needless bulk.

If you base the required forage intake on the 70% suggested, then she'd need approx 7Kg a day (my maths is atrocious so I stand to be corrected!) so if she is eating the 5Kg you assume and then the Alfalfa cubes you state that should bring her up to the right sort of level, but too much is never a bad thing in my book!

Oh my word, I've just re-read your post and see that you didn't ask for comments on your intended new plan, just on the actual feed products - SORRY!  My reply also sounds like a lecture, which it isn't, but I've just done the online course that a lot of us did and am a bit fired up about it 

Anyway, I hope you get it all sorted and it does your mare the world of good. Good luck


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## SCMSL (24 March 2013)

Hi Angel,

Thank you for taking the time to wright your post.

She is 174 atm, but should still grow one cm or so. She was weighed at 538kg at the hospital back in January and fortunately I've been able to up her weight to what I suppose is 550kg now. This has been an uphill battle as the first time she had ulcers her weight dropped down to 430kg - I had to send her to the clinic for a really bad colic and she was on fluids only for about a week.

She has been eating around 2,5% of her body weight, which is just about average for a horse of her type. Not doing what I consider to be hard work - she is schooled 6 times a week for about an hour but does always break a sweat. I also hack her or lunge her with the pessoa on Sundays.

A fiber only diet is not enough for her - thats what I tried initially and she kept loosing weight. She was eating 12kg of hay per day plus 0,75L of oil mixed with 1kg of beet pulp and 2kg of Alfa A.

So I asked for the vets opinion, he told me to put her on the diet she is on now. She has gained a bit of weight, but not barely what she should have given what she eats.

Forage n Fiber will be more of a token feed. The mash will only be put out twice a day but horses at the yard are fed 3 times a day. The grooms won't be able to feed the mash at the same time as the rest of the feeding goes on either as it needs to soak, so it will only be fed about an hour after everybody has ate. I don't want her to stress from being left out, so I've selected FnF as a bucket feed.


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## SCMSL (24 March 2013)

ETA: Main Ring Gold - http://www.dengie.com/pages/products/main-ring/main-ring-gold.php
        Pavo Condition- http://www.pavohorses.co.uk/products/pavo+condition?keyword_filter=conditi


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## TwoStroke (25 March 2013)

Ditto angelbones. Feed sizes way too big, and you should never under any circumstances feed a horse less than 50% of its feed in forage. For an ulcer horse you want way more than that.

I'm not surprised she's not gaining weight - you're not feeding her like a horse. Horses haven't evolved to eat like that, her hind gut is probably compromised and unable to work efficiently.


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## SCMSL (25 March 2013)

Actually considering the Alfalfa cubes are long stem forage as well, her diet has 51,33% of long stem forage. Also, the solution mash is 26% fiber, so qualifies as a hay replacer, even though it isn't acting like one. 

How are her feedings too big if she is only eating 1kg of hard feed each time? Are you counting the mashes as a bucket feed? She trickle feeds from it (takes hours to eat it) which is actually ideal for the hind gut (should have a constant low flow of food).


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## TwoStroke (25 March 2013)

No, what is ideal for the hind gut is to have a constant supply of forage, not hard feed. 

Alfalfa cubes are not long stem - long stem necessarily involves actually having long stems, which forage chopped into a cube can't have - this is short chop.

Good quality forage should form the majority of the horse's diet.

Sorry, but I think your feeding plans are bonkers.


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## SCMSL (25 March 2013)

Actually long stem forage is any forage that hasn't been grounded up into a pellet form.

And at 26% fiber, the Solution Mash is hardly considered hard feed....

P.S.: Of course you can think whatever you want, but the post wasn't really about what you thought about this feeding program (I am quite capable of designing a feeding program, since I'm a Zoo-technical Engineer and most of my job is designing feeds for various animals). This post was about people's experiences with these specific products.


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## TwoStroke (25 March 2013)

Heaven help us.


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## SCMSL (25 March 2013)

Ever heard the expression "if you don't have anything good to say, say nothing at all"? I would replace the word "good" by "helpful" and direct it to you.


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## TwoStroke (26 March 2013)

Ok OP, here's a helpful response...

It sounds like you've drastically over complicated feeding, and confused some of the rules of feeding. In your place I would strip everything back and go back to basics.

Provide 2% of bw in hay or haylage. Feeding so much hard feed will reduce her appetite for forage. Soak or steam the hay for 10 mins to improve palatabity if necessary.

Add unmolassed beet pulp - highly degradable fibre, and an energy content equal to conditioning feeds, but more horse friendly. If necessary, add to this the alfalfa - use an unmolassed version (ie not Alfa a).

If extra calories are required, feed micronised linseed or rice bran. Add yea sacc and brewer's yeast to aid her digestion - the hind gut may well be stressed from insufficient fibre.

If once you're on this diet and still not happy, oats are the most horse friendly cereal, fed in moderation, and good for condition.

A good mineral supplement such as pro balance will also be helpful, but I don't know about postage to Portugal.

Make all these changes very gradually, and remember that only a horse in extremely hard work (racing) should be fed as little as 50% forage - this is a bare minimum to avoid disaster. For a horse in light to moderate work, forage should make up the vast majority of the diet, in order to maintain a healthy gastrointestinal tract.


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## SCMSL (26 March 2013)

Yep, in theory you probably do have a few good ideas. But as you may know, there's the horse as an individual in the equation as well. This horse in particular cannot have beet pulp, which means I had to find other feeds low in starch and sugar to help condition her. She doesn't do oats either. She won't eat any more hay either, and although she has a net that is constantly full, only eats around 5kg each day, regardless of what else I feed her. If she doesn't have any hard feed/alfalfa (which I've tried, when she was on box rest for an unrelated issue) she will still eat the same 5kg and fill her belly with straw. If she is bedded on shavings, she'll eat the shavings and leave the hay. And it has nothing to do with the quality of the hay, I've tried different kinds and batches.

Micronized linseed and rice bran are two products I don't have available to me. 

She is being given a top notch pre and probiotic daily.


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## TwoStroke (26 March 2013)

Eating decent quality straw is better than these feeds that have cereal by products and molasses in, such as the ones you are proposing. Staw is still fibre, at least. If she can't have oats, then the forage n fibre may not be the best idea, as it contains oatfeed pellets.

If beet pulp isn't an option, then grass nuts. If feeding a product in bulk as you intend, it shouldn't contain cereals or molasses, lest they reach the hind gut.


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## SCMSL (26 March 2013)

The fibre in straw is mainly lignin, which is not digestible by horses, so they don't get anything from it. When feeding a hard keeper, you have to make sure everything the horse eats has some nutritional value.

Soy isn't a cereal either, its a legume, just like alfalfa. Oh, and its also very rich in methionine and lysine, the two main limiting amino-acids (which means the horse cannot function or build muscle without them).

On top of that, the solution mash has an added value of sugar and starch bellow 6%, which is less then most hays. So I don't see what your issue with this product is...


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## TwoStroke (26 March 2013)

I don't like feeds with molasses in, and certainly wouldn't feed one in high quantities. I think there are much better ways of feeding poor doers.

It wasn't soy I was objecting to, it was oatfeed.

My main issue though was not with the rowan and Barbary feeds - if fed in sensible quantities I think they're ok. My main issue was that I strongly believe your first priority should be pulling out all the stops to get the horse eating more forage. 5kg just isn't enough to maintain GI health.


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## SCMSL (26 March 2013)

Again, the horse only eats that amount. What I must do is find other ways to get both fiber, protein and fat into her in a way she'll actually eat it.

 If you have any reviews on these products, I would appreciate it if you could share them. If you don't, thank you for your suggestions but I know what I am doing.


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## Milkmaid (27 March 2013)

What about feeding her high temperature dried grass as a forage replacer? Redigrass or similar? Or soaked grass nuts?

Somehow you need to up the forage content of her diet?
I'd be looking at importing a pallet of Dengie Molasses free or Alfa Oil instead of all the	 Rowan & Barbery feeds. Dengie Healthy Tummy is a great Alfalfa based high calorie fibre feed which I've had great success with this year


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## TwoStroke (27 March 2013)

SCMSL said:



			I know what I am doing.
		
Click to expand...

Hmm.


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## SCMSL (28 March 2013)

She already has Alfa A and Alfalfa/grass mix cubes (the large ones, which after soaking look exactly like a chaff).


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## Milkmaid (28 March 2013)

I'd ditch the Alfa A, it is highly molassed  :-(
I suggested the Oil, mollases free or Healthy Tummy as they are all mollases free & high oil


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## Gloi (28 March 2013)

We have fed the Rowan Barbary feeds this winter to our veterans and are very happy with them.
I feed my older pony who is still a good doer mainly on on the ready fibre mash with a little linseed and a mineral supplement as well as his hay and he looks well on that. The other pony has hardly any teeth and loses weight easily. He has been on ready mash extra + alfalfa chop through the winter, likes it and eats it well and has put weight on from it.


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## SCMSL (28 March 2013)

I should've clarified she has been having Alfa A oil, not the original.

Thank you for your review on the products Gloi.

I am very happy to announce the products have arrived and we started switching my mare to them yesterday. She loves both the solution mash and the forage n fiber and we had no issues with the sumo either.


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## Queenbee (28 March 2013)

SCMSL said:



			Yep, in theory you probably do have a few good ideas. But as you may know, there's the horse as an individual in the equation as well. This horse in particular cannot have beet pulp, which means I had to find other feeds low in starch and sugar to help condition her. She doesn't do oats either. She won't eat any more hay either, and although she has a net that is constantly full, only eats around 5kg each day, regardless of what else I feed her. If she doesn't have any hard feed/alfalfa (which I've tried, when she was on box rest for an unrelated issue) she will still eat the same 5kg and fill her belly with straw. If she is bedded on shavings, she'll eat the shavings and leave the hay. And it has nothing to do with the quality of the hay, I've tried different kinds and batches.

Micronized linseed and rice bran are two products I don't have available to me. 

She is being given a top notch pre and probiotic daily.
		
Click to expand...

how are ML and RB not available to you... you can get them online, RB oil and ML oil are available in tescos too


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## SCMSL (28 March 2013)

Well, I'm not in England, so no Tesco's.


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