# "Ellen Whitaker refuses to ride for Britain under Rob Hoekstra".



## Onyxia (20 May 2010)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/298128.html

So,hissy fit or making a stand?
Answers on a postcard


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## Kat (20 May 2010)

I don't know the background, but it seems a little selfish to refuse to represent your country due to a personal falling out.......


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## BBH (20 May 2010)

Tricky one really. Her Dad says its about the need to make money so I guess they are putting money before country in some respects, but in a way I can understand that they are running a business so its a shame a balance can't be struck.

I'd be more worried if the knock on effect of this was to isolate the whole Whitaker clan then RH really would have a problem, particularly with the number of good young riders this family produce. As for Ellen I would imagine she has spoken things through with her owners and whats best for the horses and come to her decision based on that.

Team GB will have strong rider / horse combinations to chose from with or without her, no-one is indispensable.

I also think a falling out was just a matter of time. If people are used to getting their own way and a new stronger manager appears on the scene its inevitable a bedding in period will take place. One thing I think has happened very quickly is the selection of a variety of new faces in NC teams. This IMO is no bad thing as I don't think its in anyones interest for 3 / 4 people to have a stronghold on team positions.


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## Kat (20 May 2010)

But why will being on the british team affect her ability to make money? Surely it is excellent for her profile and will help with sponsors etc???


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## BBH (20 May 2010)

Probably things like a clash of dates. ie she may not be able to contest lucrative prize money shows if it clashes with team call ups abroad for example. Also for these riders they have to make money where and when they can, you could have your top horse break down at any time thus your income has been snatched away.

I'm sure she will have other good horses but not a surplus of international rides. I can't imagine the Whitakers are struggling though hence the reason I think its a shame a balance can't be struck.


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## Onyxia (20 May 2010)

Can't agree more LHS-we need as many riders out there getting team experiance as possable.
Obviously NC's are not purely training grounds and we want the team to do well,but without giving as many new riders(not just the young ones) a chance to shine at that level we have a limited pot to choose from.


I dont think I would call it selfish Katt,if she cant make enough to pay the bills without selling on top horses while competing for team GB it is logical(though sad for her and her team) to pull out.


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## lizziebell (20 May 2010)

The article usese the word "refuse" as opposed to "turned down", and states it was a falling out with RH. If it was simply that it wasn't financially viable for her to ride for GB, then surely this article would have used different phrases?

Without knowing details it sounds like a childish attitude by EW, however if the fall out is over health & safety issues then maybe she is right to pull.


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## BBH (20 May 2010)

I do agree with RH though in that disputes don't need to be dealt with through the press. Whatever happened to having a conversation in private to resolve issues. 

BS has enough problems with high profile fallouts without adding to the pot. Crikey and I thought it was the racing people who were odd.


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## Halfstep (20 May 2010)

I read the article as printed and understood it to be saying that RH had made requests regarding the management and running of Ocolado that Ellen and her team found unreasonable - i.e. requesting that he be jumped more than they wanted to, especially because he is her only top horse.  She was unwilling to serve on a team when she felt the manager was making unreasonable requests and not listening to her concerns.


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## BBH (20 May 2010)

I got the gist that they wanted to compete at different shows not extra shows tbh. Her Dad says ' Its not a matter of Ellen not wanting to jump for her country, but we won't jump again until RH is finished. We have to mix jumping with making money, he has left us with no alternative'.

This to me reads like rather an un-compromising stance. I think its the words ' until RH is finished'. If the quote is accurate it doesn't sound like much of a way forward can be made.


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## bahumbug (20 May 2010)

....agree with LHS (above), if quote is correct looks more like a challenge made from entrenched position. Oh dear! A great shame but not a surprise for cracks to show this early in RH's tenure. Is there history here I wonder?


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## brighteyes (20 May 2010)

It's a whole different world to the one most of us compete in.  I doubt many of us have anything like the pressures, conditions and caveats they work alongside, and around every day.


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## BBH (20 May 2010)

I do think its kind of ironic in a way. Most riders that want to make it professional would give everything to be invited onto young rider and national teams as the culmination of everything they've worked towards. Many don't have the wealthy backers and horse power to get there and yet here we have someone who has  had every opportunity saying no thankyou to a national team place.    

Because she's had everything so young it makes you wonder if she won't have the drive and motivation for long term success.


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## Coolspot (20 May 2010)

Perhaps, and I am playing devils advocate here, it's not so much to do with Ellen being a "diva" as some are suggesting, but perhaps the team management itself?
After all, RH wasn't the most popular choice of team manager, especially taking into account his previous history.

I, for one, would like to give Ellen the benefit of the doubt as to why she doesn't want to be part of the team.


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## sillygillyhorse (20 May 2010)

Correct me if I am wrong but from what I remember this is not the first time Stephen and Ellen have done this.  I vaguely remember what appeared to be a similar scenario in the past when she was in either Juniors or Young Riders squad when Stephen refused to attend team training as they have their own training routines that work for them.  There was a falling out then and Ellen did not jump for her country.  All sounds a bit like toy being thrown out of prams.

I am sure there are all sorts of things going on behind this story that we will never know.  Each to their own and all that but in my mind RH looks far more dignified by not commenting.  As has been said no one is indespensable and we do have other riders.


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## Maesfen (20 May 2010)

LHS said:



			I do think its kind of ironic in a way. Most riders that want to make it professional would give everything to be invited onto young rider and national teams as the culmination of everything they've worked towards. Many don't have the wealthy backers and horse power to get there and yet here we have someone who has  had every opportunity saying no thankyou to a national team place.    

Because she's had everything so young it makes you wonder if she won't have the drive and motivation for long term success.
		
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You said it very well LHS.  It does come across as toys out of the pram and what a thing for SW to say about getting RH out; that smacks of bullying by cronies to me and I hope BS step on it firmly.  They made their choice of manager and it's up to riders to get on and impress him if they'd like to be considered for teams.  It's good there's a new broom, it's been too much old boys club for too long now, the youngsters deserve their chances without sour grapes from the oldies.


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## Ignition (20 May 2010)

The fact of the matter is that the prize money isn't big enough at Nations Cup events, for the level you're jumping at. They need to either downsize the tracks or upgrade the prize money to make it worthwhile from a business point of view to compete for your country.


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## Rouletterose (20 May 2010)

I understood from the article that Ellen did not like being told what to do with her horses and that person would not listen to her and her opinion. It didn't sound like anyone throwing their toys out to me, she is an adult rider and can speak for herself.

RH says in the article that everything has to be for the team, I've heard that before, you feel like you are bring taken over, she is free to do as she wishes isn't she? people have to make a living and she must have agreement with her owners surely.


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## martlin (20 May 2010)

Hmmm, I haven't read the article yet, but my first thought at seeing a preview on the website was that a dummy has been spat
I know that money has to be made etc, but refusing to jump on teams seems to me a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face


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## CalllyH (20 May 2010)

As someone else said the team may be better for it - rather have a team working together and wanting to be there than one person who occassional turns up and does things only there way when they do. 

Probably sensible for both parties to avoid any more upset but doesnt change my opinion that she is a little madam.  A smile from her once in a while wouldnt hurt either


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## Rambo (21 May 2010)

I haven't read the full article because i don't buy H&H anymore but i would make a couple of observations...

The apparent argument about money is weak imo. Barring the Global Champions Tour and a couple of one-off super Grand Prix, the Super League shows have some of the biggest prize money in showjumping. There aren't too many GP that boast a prize fund approaching a third of a million euro's/pounds. In fact, i seem to recall Peter Charles complaining last year when we were threatened with relegation to the promotional league that our riders would be denied access to the best shows in terms of prize money 

Steven Whitaker is a very strong willed person by all accounts and you can almost guarantee that this decision is his as much (if not more than) Ellen's.

Rob is a very strong minded person who comes from an era when it was everyone's dream to have worked up to the level where they were selected to represent their country.....clearly things don't work like that these days with people being bought multi-million pound horses to ride.

Ellen doesn't exactly have a deep string of championship horses available to her at the moment....and Occolado isn't getting any younger.

I just hope she hasn't burnt all her bridges for when she does have something good enough to make say an Olympic or WEG team and then wonders why she isn't selected 

Clearly the rest of the Whitaker clan haven't closed ranks (yet!) though as Uncle Mike was on the team in La Baule....and i know RH lists JW as one of his close friends too...


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## MCPHERSONHATER (21 May 2010)

Good girl Ellen. Was appalled when we appointed Hoekstra.


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## BBH (21 May 2010)

MCPHERSONHATER said:



			Good girl Ellen. Was appalled when we appointed Hoekstra.
		
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What a strange thing to say.

You'll see from my previous thread that I questioned the appointment of RH on a morality issue
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=353189

but I do think that now he is appointed whether people agree with the decision or not  BS needs to start getting the sport moving forward and these constant tittle tattle spats are not doing its credibility any favours . 

Really, some of the people on the board and some of the riders need to put aside their own prima donna behaviour and consider the wider benefits of working together to at least promote the sport in harmony working towards a common goal. I think the whole problem is people are running their businesses in isolation and so only think of their personal benefits ie whats in for me. A whole mind set change is needed really for people to start thinking of team, sport benefits as a whole.  Its getting towards the point where its only known for spats off the field as opposed to successes in the arena.


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## sywell (21 May 2010)

This must come back to the BSJA and their administration not being fully aware of the top riders work load and the expense of competing in Europe. I have seen one of the Whittiker's arrive at the airport in France at 7.30 in the morning and compete late into the evening. They know what they and the horse can stand and if you have competed at a top level for 20 years as the senior Whittikers have then you will have a personal opinion of most of your competing rivals and of course some you will not get on with but this is a fact of life look at the Irish team members who have refused to jump for Ireland as an example.


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## cefyl (21 May 2010)

The BSJA are fully aware of top riders workload.  We have been so used to seeing the teams dominated by the Whitaker family and friends for years.  Maybe this is a good thing.  Bring chances to some of the riders who do not have the financial backing and horsepower as Ellen but certainly bucket loads more natural talent and riding ability.

It certainly has not done British show jumping any favours at all having an elite few dominate our teams abroad.  Maybe Ellen just got ticked off big time at the suggestion that she could do with some coaching from someone who is going to be brutally honest with her?


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## Amymay (21 May 2010)

Bring chances to some of the riders who do not have the financial backing and horsepower as Ellen but certainly bucket loads more natural talent and riding ability.
		
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Yep, gotta agree.


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## Doncella (21 May 2010)

cefyl said:



			The BSJA are fully aware of top riders workload.  We have been so used to seeing the teams dominated by the Whitaker family and friends for years.  Maybe this is a good thing.  Bring chances to some of the riders who do not have the financial backing and horsepower as Ellen but certainly bucket loads more natural talent and riding ability.

It certainly has not done British show jumping any favours at all having an elite few dominate our teams abroad.  Maybe Ellen just got ticked off big time at the suggestion that she could do with some coaching from someone who is going to be brutally honest with her?
		
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I agree too.


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## DTMDAN (21 May 2010)

I don't understand why this is causing such a fuss.  Loads of professional sportsmen make themselves unavailable for their country in cricket, rugby or football for loads of reasons many of which the general public never hear.

In another sport I am not sure this would really be such news.


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## Stateside (21 May 2010)

Sorry but weather it is Football cricket, show jumping there should not be National teams the sports and money involved is to big now. If a horse gets injured does the BSJA pay compensation?, If Wayne  Ronney
get injured and is not available for Manchester United all season is that fare to his team and supporters . All sports are on a  huge commercial footing so I think why do we need National teams ,in any sport.  
But as for Ellen Whitaker we all know changing the slightest thing can effect a horses  performance, With Her horses she should do what she feels is best for them and her, and sod the team.


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## zefragile (21 May 2010)

Stateside said:



			Sorry but weather it is Football cricket, show jumping there should not be National teams the sports and money involved is to big now. If a horse gets injured does the BSJA pay compensation?, If Wayne  Ronney
get injured and is not available for Manchester United all season is that fare to his team and supporters . All sports are on a  huge commercial footing so I think why do we need National teams ,in any sport.  
But as for Ellen Whitaker we all know changing the slightest thing can effect a horses  performance, With Her horses she should do what she feels is best for them and her, and sod the team.
		
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There shouldn't be national teams? So there shouldn't be international sport 
I have no idea what you are on about, sorry


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## Luci07 (21 May 2010)

at the end of the day... she is making a living from her jumping in a sport where you can lose your best night so quickly - look at Pippa Funnell - one minute she seemed to have so many 4* horses then for various reasons, had none at that level.  Her riding hadn't diminished by any degree but she just didn't have that level of horse at that time. While I think it would be lovely to ride for your country, a flag on the saddle doesn't mean money in the account and bills being paid!


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## Paddywhack (22 May 2010)

Not sure if it is an arrogant,brave or stupid decision by a spoiled girl or a professional rider ???!!!! But what ever decision it was hers !
I am sure that she is professional enough to know what she is doing knowing that she puts any future team selection in jeopardy ..
But what really annoys me already is that IF for some reason the team does badly who will get the blame ??? R.H ??? NO Ellen will, since that is this nations mentality


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## SJFAN (22 May 2010)

Sillygilly is correct, Ellen and her dad refused to attend designated events some years back, claiming that their own training programme was better.  I think it will be they rather than the British team who will lose out in the long run.


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## cefyl (22 May 2010)

SJFAN said:



			Sillygilly is correct, Ellen and her dad refused to attend designated events some years back, claiming that their own training programme was better.  .
		
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If it was so much better then why are they no longer the force to be reckoned with in international SJ?  Times change.  Methods change, generally for the good (rollkur aside!), and to keep in with the way modern courses have to ridden.   Look at what we once considered to be lowley nations in SJ - Spain; Brasil; Sweden; Italy (but I can remember when Piero & Raimondo D'Inzeo kept Italy at the top - OMG am I really that old?), they have hauled themselves up by the backside and listened, worked, been humble enough to take advice.

I have no feelings about RH good or bad, all I care is that he brings Britain back into the top nations.  If money is all to Ellen then so be it, that is the path she chooses.  What a contrast to Michel Robert who gave up the chance to ride on a leg of the Global Ch tour to ride and support his team in La Baule.


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## SJFAN (22 May 2010)

I agree absolutely - and yes, I too am that old - the d'Inzeos were heroes of mine (along with Pat Smythe & David Broome) when I was growing up. Actually I remember Raimondo d'Inzeo saying that he despaired of the younger Italian team of which he was captain (this was in the early or mid 1970s) because they did not listen to advice.  Representing your country on a team should be considered an honour - I don't think Ellen's uncles have turned down many such chances.


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## dieseldog (22 May 2010)

I thought the problem was that if you jumped the Nations Cup then you didn't tend to put tht horse into the Grand Prix.  And the GP is where the prize money is.

No one complained when Nick Skelton stopped jumping NC on Arco but was still winning the GPs on him.  

If you only have 1 top horse do you ride for your country or ride for the money so that you can keep riding?

Maybe Ellen and her Dad are hoping that RH won't be around by 2012 so she'll still get on the Olympic team  - who kows anything about backroom politics


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## SJFAN (22 May 2010)

Ellen does have another GP horse on the international circuit, Locarno, her European Championship partner.  Unfortunately since his comeback from the most recent long lay-off he hasn't gone well enough for her to start him in a GP.  It was James Fisher not Ellen who produced Ocolado to Grade A.


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## tiffansoph (22 May 2010)

seems that majority postings feel negative toward EW for making decision on how best to manage her top class horse. Like everyone else I perhaps do not know the full facts but without a doubt Ellen is the future of british showjumping and anyone who tries to pretend she is other than top class is being foolish. My children hero worship EW and we have followed her career for a few years now because of this.The posting suggesting Ellen should "try smiling occasionally" is being extremely unkind as are those suggesting she is throwing a tantrum or being arrogant. We have watched ellen at shows and my children have approached her for autographs and to speak several times. i certainly have never detected any hint of arrogance or unpleasantness and am so delighted the youngest budding showjumpers have such a perfect role model. As far as I can see EW has absolutely no "question mark" surrounding either her talent, proffessionalism or personality. She is just trying to do whats best for her horse.
As for the appointment of RH there was no doubt showjumping needed a character who could pull our team together and talking of question marks it seemed he had plenty so to start blaming EW seems a bit rich!


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## Ranyhyn (22 May 2010)

tiffansoph said:



			without a doubt Ellen is the future of british showjumping QUOTE]

Wow, now that IS an endorsement...
		
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## SusieT (22 May 2010)

I suspect nobody is 'upset' that she is not jumping for the team-we have ample good riders, but more that it was dragged through the media in this way. I have no opinions either way on RH, but at least he wasn't grabbing headlines with it..
Be interesting to see who gets an olympic selection now


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## kit279 (22 May 2010)

I don't really follow the ins and outs of team showjumping but strikes me that a dignified silence and the courage of one's convictions would have been a better policy than bitching to H&H that Hoekstra 'just doesn't listen'.  Infighting is not an attractive spectacle when written down in the press...


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## cefyl (22 May 2010)

Kitsune said:





tiffansoph said:



			without a doubt Ellen is the future of british showjumping QUOTE]

]

Hahhhhhhhhh Hahhhhhhhhhh Hahhhhhhhhhhh funniest thing I've heard all year!
		
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## TarrSteps (22 May 2010)

kit279 said:



			I don't really follow the ins and outs of team showjumping but strikes me that a dignified silence and the courage of one's convictions would have been a better policy than bitching to H&H that Hoekstra 'just doesn't listen'.  Infighting is not an attractive spectacle when written down in the press...
		
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I think that's really what people are taking issue with.  It is absolutely Ellen's prerogative and to her credit to make the best choices for her horses, herself and her owners.  And if those decisions clash with the direction the Team has decided to go in, so be it.  But it's the drama of this that puts people off.  Obviously none of us know what's going on behind the scenes but we don't know EITHER story.


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## SazzyB (22 May 2010)

It seems like as a nation we have not done particularly well in show jumping in recent years - unlike eventing for example - and so if the previous management led plan wasn't working then why not change the management and get some new ideas.  If that means new team members then great!  We want to be proud of our show jumping team again, we want them to win, and personally I would like to see good riders up there, team players, and those who have the ability to ride for their country.  I don't know Ellen, so have no view on her either way, but I am quite surprised that she doesn't do even better than she has, because lets face it, she has the money, the background, the training, etc. to have the best horses and has had the best experience, so she should be good at what she does.

I would love to see some new blood in the show jumping teams.


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## Ranyhyn (23 May 2010)

I agree, the drama surroudning it smacks of spoilt brat to me.


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## tasel (23 May 2010)

Nothing against Ellen Whitaker, but to be honest, I don't really mind not seeing a name that ends with 'Whitaker' on the board once in a while.  It annoys me a little that one family can have such a strong hold in this discipline.  For sure, there are families that are widely represented in the equestrian sport even in other countries, such as the Beerbaums in Germany... but it's not like every single individual from that family, for example, was heading straight for a career in SJ.  Here, you see the Whitakers in Pony Club, Young Riders... all the way to the top.  It gets a little boring, and it doesn't help making the sport seem less 'elitist' if one family dominates it all.  Fact is, they had the advantage of having had great ponies and horses to ride ever since they could walk - I would have liked to see whether they could have made it this far learning on your typical riding school ponies/horses that wouldn't even move off your leg.  I am more amazed by riders who get to the top without that big advantage - as that would have meant they got there by pure merit more than anything else.

Back to the subject matter: as far as I know, being in a team means listening to your coach.  It means making compromises, and sometimes you might not get your way.  I don't know what they mean with "making money" for the owners through winning prizes but as far as I can see, there's no money to be made in the sport unless one sells the horse.  The few thousand Euros that Ellen would have won in the tournament she went to instead of La Baule (she didn't come first - which is where most of the money goes), wouldn't have been enough to cover the cost of participating in the event in the first place, if you look at transport, paying the Whitakers the cost of preparing the horse, and then the competition fee, accommodation, etc.

The Whitakers are almost regarded as equestrian royalty in this country, and I think it's just a case of them wanting it to be made clear that they do things _their_ way rather than the way Rob Hoeksta wants to do it.  However, good for Hoekstra to stand his ground - otherwise, he'd just be another puppet in the royal court of the Whitakers.


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## mulbry (23 May 2010)

Can someone please explain to those of us apparently not in the loop what exactly the problem is that so many posters seem to have with the Whitaker family? I'm frankly a little bewildered by the snide comments that crop up time and time again when a story involving the family appears. I'm genuinely not trying to pick a fight, I honestly don't get where the vitriol comes from. 

I understand that the younger generation has had advantages brought about by the success of John and Michael but you've still got to know what to do with the horsepower underneath you once you get it. From the outside looking in it honestly looks like plain and simple jealousy. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong in which case please enlighten me.

As for this case, yes I'm surprised at the decision and a little disappointed in the manner in which it has come to light but at the end of the day it's Ellen's choice. We do certainly have many very talented riders capable of representing their country well at the highest level but I can't help but feel that if it were a different rider/family involved there would have been far less criticism.


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## Ranyhyn (23 May 2010)

IMHO I have seen far too much bad behaviour and attitude from Ellen, and that is the reason I'm not impressed with this  latest story.  As for the rest of the family I havent seen anything bad and therefore my dislike is for her rather than the Whitakers per se.


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## tasel (23 May 2010)

Mulbry - More often than not, the latter generations of families that tend to have too much grip on an industry have that "sense of entitlement" about them that can be translated into brat-like behaviour.  This is the case in many industries and not just the equestrian sport.  It is very difficult in that situation to grow up modestly - though I do think one or two of the younger Whitakers might have accomplished this.

My point against them really is that it gets boring to see the same family again and again, and it's almost a given that they will win certain competitions, and thus get offered some of the best rides - leaving other young riders, who may be just as good if not better, less opportunities to shine.


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## joe_carby (23 May 2010)

tasel said:



			Nothing against Ellen Whitaker, but to be honest, I don't really mind not seeing a name that ends with 'Whitaker' on the board once in a while.  It annoys me a little that one family can have such a strong hold in this discipline.  For sure, there are families that are widely represented in the equestrian sport even in other countries, such as the Beerbaums in Germany... but it's not like every single individual from that family, for example, was heading straight for a career in SJ.  Here, you see the Whitakers in Pony Club, Young Riders... all the way to the top.  It gets a little boring, and it doesn't help making the sport seem less 'elitist' if one family dominates it all.  Fact is, they had the advantage of having had great ponies and horses to ride ever since they could walk - I would have liked to see whether they could have made it this far learning on your typical riding school ponies/horses that wouldn't even move off your leg.  I am more amazed by riders who get to the top without that big advantage - as that would have meant they got there by pure merit more than anything else.

Back to the subject matter: as far as I know, being in a team means listening to your coach.  It means making compromises, and sometimes you might not get your way.  I don't know what they mean with "making money" for the owners through winning prizes but as far as I can see, there's no money to be made in the sport unless one sells the horse.  The few thousand Euros that Ellen would have won in the tournament she went to instead of La Baule (she didn't come first - which is where most of the money goes), wouldn't have been enough to cover the cost of participating in the event in the first place, if you look at transport, paying the Whitakers the cost of preparing the horse, and then the competition fee, accommodation, etc.

The Whitakers are almost regarded as equestrian royalty in this country, and I think it's just a case of them wanting it to be made clear that they do things _their_ way rather than the way Rob Hoeksta wants to do it.  However, good for Hoekstra to stand his ground - otherwise, he'd just be another puppet in the royal court of the Whitakers.
		
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this comment shows how little you know about how the whitaker dynasty started off. my mother used to compete at them when they where younger micheal, steven and john that is they used to turn up to competitions on the horse that their dad used to use for his milk round.

they are only in the public eye for being in all the teams because the selectors picked themthats not their fault. yes granted the younger whitakers have better oppertunities now but lets face it if you worked hard all your life and had the chance to give your childrens life a boost by getting them a nice and talented pony let me guess you would go and get them an old numb to the leg pony with behavioural issues beacuse its not fair if your child has a good pony and others havent no course you wouldnt not in a million years.

i no for a fact that they have to work with some very difficult horses and work some very long hours. many of the horses they have are home produced from unbroken youngsters and yes ok the horses are potentially very talented but you still have to have the ability to unlock the talent once the horse is backed which with some of the horses there i wouldnt stay on their back for 10 seconds never mind school it and jump it ect.

with regards to going to a show instead of le baule the show she went to was newark and notts there was a lorry load going from the yard again the majority were horses that were home produced going to their 1st county level competition. if like you say she won a few grand which i havent got a clue what she won then she will have had quite a profitable day if it costs a few grand to take a horse to a show a couple of hours down the road then id suggest they have the lorry checked because something obviously isnt running right. yet she should pay to travel 1 horse all the way to le baule compete and what ever it costs her over there then pay to travel 1 horse back surely going to newark and notts made better buisness sense????

at this point in time she only has 1 horse with the ability to compete at the level that oli can so if he gets injured jumping too much then what does she do? are you going to provide her with the horse power? 

she didnt say she wouldnt jump for them what she did say is that she had to combine the 2 she needed to be jumping to make money at the same time i understand that its rob's job to manage the team and she couldnt fit in how he wanted so she pulled out.


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## Minxie (23 May 2010)

Slightly off subject.  Well actually well off subject. 

But there has also been an incident when a horse wasn't made available to the GB team.  

The legendary Milton's owners (Caroline Bradley's parents) made it clear to John Whittaker when they offered him Milton that he would not be allowed to go to the 1988 Seoul Olympics as they were worried about him travelling, illnesses etc. 

I remember it was commentated on up to and during the games but I don't remember anybody expressing resent for the fact he wasn't there which you may have expected taking that he was the world's number one horse at the time.  

I'm not making any point - just thought i'd post


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## TarrSteps (23 May 2010)

Re: Milton, he wasn't made available for the '88 Games because he had originally been intended to be Caroline's Olympic mount and her parents said all along they would not send him with anyone else.  In fact, although John seemed very sanguine about it, at least in print, I remember quite a bit of fussing about the decision and general feeling that he was Team GB's best chance at a medal, but was being denied the chance for such an "unrealistic" reason.  They succumbed to the pressure and sent him in '92 but the feeling was he'd gone off the boil by that point.

Interestingly, the fuss was the other way at that point - the feeling being who wouldn't want to win an Olympic medal if there was even the possibility?  He and Big Ben were battling for top honours at the time and I think many people felt it was denying the horse another card in his hand of greatness.  Of course, Ian had his usual lackluster Games so all a bit moot in the end.

To be honest, aside from the adverse publicity (I can see the Whitaker's point that Ellen's decision needs justifying in the press, it's just unfortunate it comes at such a sensitive time with a new coach in charge) I don't think it's such a major deal.  It means someone else will get a chance to succeed or fail on their own merits.  Sure, there will always be people saying "if only . . ." but they always do that, no matter what decisions are made.


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## SJFAN (23 May 2010)

In the run-up to the 1988 Olympics the British powers that be made it clear to the Bradleys that if he were not to be available for the Games, Milton would not be selected for Nations Cup teams, which meant that he was not able to compete at the shows offering the best prize money that year.

As a team member Ellen would not have had to pay to go to La Baule whereas she or rather the owners of her horses do have to pay to go to other events, such as Wiesbaden where she is competing at present.


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## tasel (23 May 2010)

joe_carby said:



			this comment shows how little you know about how the whitaker dynasty started off. my mother used to compete at them when they where younger micheal, steven and john that is they used to turn up to competitions on the horse that their dad used to use for his milk round.

they are only in the public eye for being in all the teams because the selectors picked themthats not their fault. yes granted the younger whitakers have better oppertunities now but lets face it if you worked hard all your life and had the chance to give your childrens life a boost by getting them a nice and talented pony let me guess you would go and get them an old numb to the leg pony with behavioural issues beacuse its not fair if your child has a good pony and others havent no course you wouldnt not in a million years.

i no for a fact that they have to work with some very difficult horses and work some very long hours. many of the horses they have are home produced from unbroken youngsters and yes ok the horses are potentially very talented but you still have to have the ability to unlock the talent once the horse is backed which with some of the horses there i wouldnt stay on their back for 10 seconds never mind school it and jump it ect.

with regards to going to a show instead of le baule the show she went to was newark and notts there was a lorry load going from the yard again the majority were horses that were home produced going to their 1st county level competition. if like you say she won a few grand which i havent got a clue what she won then she will have had quite a profitable day if it costs a few grand to take a horse to a show a couple of hours down the road then id suggest they have the lorry checked because something obviously isnt running right. yet she should pay to travel 1 horse all the way to le baule compete and what ever it costs her over there then pay to travel 1 horse back surely going to newark and notts made better buisness sense????

at this point in time she only has 1 horse with the ability to compete at the level that oli can so if he gets injured jumping too much then what does she do? are you going to provide her with the horse power? 

she didnt say she wouldnt jump for them what she did say is that she had to combine the 2 she needed to be jumping to make money at the same time i understand that its rob's job to manage the team and she couldnt fit in how he wanted so she pulled out.
		
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Joe Carby - I know full well the history of the Whitaker "dynasty".  I was not complaining about the elder generation either.  I know about how they got their start through Donald and Enid Whitaker - Donald being a farmer who didn't really ride and Enid being the one teaching her sons to ride.  I said that it's often the younger generation that tends to become known to be more spoilt... like with any family that becomes "established" whether it be in the equestrian sport or not.

The tournament I was referring to was NOT Newark and Notts - you've got your dates wrong here (and yet accuse me of not having done my _research_!!!).  Newark and Notts was the weekend before La Baule, and on the weekend of La Baule, Ellen was in Hamburg (i.e. Germany) which by the way is geographically further away than La Baule (in France).

If it was really just as innocent as you want to make it out to be - why say in the press that they would refuse to ride for Britain "until Rob Hoekstra is finished"???  I don't know how that sounds to you, but if someone said that about me, I'd be deeply insulted.  And it says something, when all articles mention that BSJA backs Hoekstra in this matter/dispute.


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## joe_carby (24 May 2010)

sorry if i have the dates wrong then i got the dates wrong. the main point i was trying to get over was that in my opinion how your post read was that the younger generation didnt do anything to get where they are, which is totally out of order, and if you know how they started then surely you under stand that micheal steven and john are bound to give there kids the kick start in life that they never got. 

i tend not to believe everything thats written in print as half of it is usually hyped up and exagerated, and other parts of the story missed out. you can never no the whole story of whats happened behind the scenes so its abit harsh to start slating someone on an article in a magazine.


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## zoeshiloh (24 May 2010)

Well, I thought I would have my two cents worth, despite knowing nothing really about the ins and outs of BSJA/BS.

To the uneducated of us, it looks like Ellen and her father are trying to blackmail BS into getting rid of RH - it basically seems like a hissy fit to me. I can understand her point (wanting to manage her own horse) but there was no need to go running to the press about it - some sports try above and beyond to keep these things private, but the whitakers do have a tendancy to run to H&H everytime something happens that they do not agree with.

Now, I have a lot of respect for what the whitakers have achieved, but are they victims of their own success? I know that the older chaps got there through hard work, grit and determination, but there can be no denying that the younger generation has had it easy (or easier at least). They can pick and choose what horses they ride, they can refuse to ride nasty or difficult horses - a lot of our top riders cannot afford that pleasure. 

The British public (especially the equestrians among us) have a big loyalty to the whitaker family - we grew up hearing their names, reading their names, and seeing their faces week in week out in magazines, and on TV. If someone moderatly unknown was to make such a statement as "I'm not riding for GB until so-and-so is no longer" the majority of us would say "so what" or accuse them of being unpatriotic. Because the Whitakers have formed the backbone of british jumping for so long, a lot of people automatically assume that they are in the right. 

I lost a little respect for the Whitaker family when I saw a certain member warming up at Towerlands a few years ago - he went into the ring wearing combat trousers ??? and when the collecting ring steward (or whoever it was) mentioned it, his retort was "tell my father if you dare to"... Is that anyway to behave if you want some respect?

Something else I would be VERY interested to know.... Is Ellen Whitaker receiving 2012 pathway (or whatever it is referred to as) money, and if so, should this now be stopped as she is "not available for british teams" - surely the money should now go to someone who is available??

Just my uneducated musings...


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## Amelia27 (24 May 2010)

I'm absolutely delighted that she isn't on the team   I can't stand the girl - I've seen her lose the plot with her horse far too many times in public and can only imagine what goes on at home 

Nothing hugely against the rest of her family - John was my childhood hero and I think it's quite amazing how well they have all done and what they have achieved.  It's just that I sometimes worry about the methods they've used to get there


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## JDChaser (24 May 2010)

John himself has said that competing for your country is the highest honour and should come above everything, so who knows what he thinks of all this.


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## tasel (25 May 2010)

zoeshiloh - you said exactly what was on my mind.

I know the senior Whitakers got there through hard work and determination, but worshipping a "dynasty" (i.e. kids included) is in my opinion utterly nonsense.  If I was to look at the younger generations' performance based on merit alone, I would have to discount the advantages they had in life and compare them to riders worldwide.  If you think about it, they have the name, they got intensive equestrian education pretty much for free with some of the best people in the business (unlike most parents who will have to pay over a thousand pounds a year for weekly lessons), they got the best ponies growing up and legendary horses to ride once they were ready to move on to bigger things.  It can be assumed that most their life, they never had to train for a career outside the equestrian sport.  If I look at all that and look at their performance on a worldwide basis, their performance becomes distinctively average.  The highest in the Rolex Rankings is Robert at No. 47, followed by Ellen at No. 54.  They are outdone by people who at one point in life or another even trained to do something else other than riding - which I thought would have proved to be a disadvantage to them as they couldn't focus entirely on their equestrian career.  But obviously, they had to - and often were even made to do so by their parents - as riding isn't really a career path that guarantees stability in life.  Those are the people I look up to more, as somehow they have shown they could multi-task and still win against all odds.  That's why I loved seeing the German eventer Hinrich Romeike winning gold in Hong Kong with his beloved horse Marius.  He is a dentist, and beat the professiossionals at their game.  Now, that's what I call performance.  On top of that, though confident, he is fairly modest - he continues being a dentist and once even said that his horse never made any mistakes, it's him who usually did so.

joe_carby - getting the dates wrong rendered your argument that it was indeed about money for the Whitakers invalid.  And yes, I tend to believe nothing I read in The Sun either, but given that H&H couldn't have made up Rob Hoekstra's "No Comment" approach (The Sun would have made something up instead), I do believe they haven't just put those words into the Whitakers' mouths.


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## PaddyMonty (25 May 2010)

zoeshiloh said:



			but there can be no denying that the younger generation has had it easy (or easier at least). They can pick and choose what horses they ride, they can refuse to ride nasty or difficult horses - a lot of our top riders cannot afford that pleasure.
		
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If you'd ever seen stephen training ellen I think you might have a different view 

The way I see it RH wanted ellen on the team because she IS successful, not because she COULD be successful.  As she is already at the top of the game then they must be doing something right.  To then start telling S and E where and when to compete is IMHO a little out of order.

E has already represented GB on many occasions so its not a case of not wanting to as I see it, more a case of not being told how to manage an already successful horse.  Seems reasonable to me.

Then again I'm sure we only hear less than half the real story.


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## Onyxia (25 May 2010)

JunoXV said:



			If you'd ever seen stephen training ellen I think you might have a different view 

The way I see it RH wanted ellen on the team because she IS successful, not because she COULD be successful.  As she is already at the top of the game then they must be doing something right.  To then start telling S and E where and when to compete is IMHO a little out of order.

E has already represented GB on many occasions so its not a case of not wanting to as I see it, more a case of not being told how to manage an already successful horse.  Seems reasonable to me.

Then again I'm sure we only hear less than half the real story. 

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But for a team to be sucessfull you have  to comprimise and all be on the same page.
If someone wants to be part of the team they have to go along with what the team says-the others dont seem to have any issue with this.

As I said before,I think it will prove ot be a good thing for the team and sport-not because I dislike EW hugely(although the tantrums I have seen do put me off her) but because if a "given" is out of action someone else will get a chance to shine and the more riders we have avalable for selection the better.

Zoeshiloh,thats a very interisting point-if EW has refused to jump for the team as apose to being unable to,she really should not be reciving any funding from World Class. I wonder if it has been stopped?


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## tasel (25 May 2010)

JunoXV said:



			The way I see it RH wanted ellen on the team because she IS successful, not because she COULD be successful.  As she is already at the top of the game then they must be doing something right.  To then start telling S and E where and when to compete is IMHO a little out of order.
		
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Ehm... try doing that in any other sport... a person who would go against the advice of the "team coach" and do their own thing would be rendered a prima donna.  How come just because it's showjumping, it's fine?  And is Team S and E really doing that well compared to their global competitors?


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## BBH (25 May 2010)

I think its very telling that BS have come down on the side of RH and that is right imo, you don't appoint a new team manager and then undermine their decisions.

Anyone knows that to be part of a team you may need to compromise your own position and if EW can't do that its right that she steps away. A team needs to pull together and RH has a huge task in front of him and I doubt he wants someone who doesn't put team needs first. There are plenty of other hungry players out there who would love the chance to step up a notch.


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## cefyl (25 May 2010)

As anima pointed out EW should NOT be receiving any more funding period.  It should be directed to those who will support our nation.  The road has started to 2012 and it is not acceptable to keep funding someone who refuses to be part of a team.


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## Jump2It (25 May 2010)

RH was a crazy appointment imo, seems a rather abrasive character with little respect from the riders....trouble is finding someone who wants to do it i guess...riders still riding want to be on the teams not running them...


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## Rambo (25 May 2010)

Jump2It said:



			RH was a crazy appointment imo, seems a rather abrasive character with little respect from the riders....trouble is finding someone who wants to do it i guess...riders still riding want to be on the teams not running them...
		
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What makes you think Rob doesn't have the respect of the riders ? I would suggest he is extremely highly regarded amongst his peers. If he was that bad do you think he would have been able to assemble the sort of squad he has for Rome !? Clearly the Whitakers (original generation) are not too concernef about little Ellen's predicament. I can't remember the last time GBR put out a squad of such strength...bring it on


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## bahumbug (25 May 2010)

Rambo said:



			What makes you think Rob doesn't have the respect of the riders ? I would suggest he is extremely highly regarded amongst his peers. If he was that bad do you think he would have been able to assemble the sort of squad he has for Rome !? Clearly the Whitakers (original generation) are not too concernef about little Ellen's predicament. I can't remember the last time GBR put out a squad of such strength...bring it on 

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SECONDED! That is all I have to say at this moment...


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## Equibrit (26 May 2010)

It has to be a pain in the bum when you have planned out your only competitive horse's show year; the events he will attend, his training and rest periods, management etc.. Having scheduled all that taking into account the other horses you have to pilot through their training and showing, Hoekstra comes along and wants to throw a spanner in your plans. Not only that, but he thinks you should drop everything to accommodate him. I think for somebody who makes their living with jumping horses it is pretty unreasonable to expect Ms Whitaker to just be a good girl and do as she's told. I would imagine that if he pulled the same **** with the male members of the clan they would give him the same answer that Stephen did.


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## TarrSteps (26 May 2010)

But everyone else is in the same boat, surely?  

Whenever there is a change of management there's going to be screaming, it goes with the territory.  

In the end, the proof will have to be in the pudding - the biggest problem these days seems to be getting people to wait long enough to see results (no different than anywhere else, I guess) and reminding people that the point IS results.  I've yet to see a team do well and THEN everyone says, "Yeah, well, I still think they made all the wrong choices."


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## PaddyMonty (26 May 2010)

I'm struggling to understand all the talk of 'Team'.
As far as I can see it the riders dont compete as a team.  They go in to jump their rounds individually.  What one rider does has no effect on the performance or outcome of the others except for perhaps advising that distance x rides long/short etc.  The team element only comes in to it when all the scores are added up.
I understand the team concept in multiplayer sports where the actions of one directly affect the rest as all on the field at same time.  This is not the case with SJ, eventing, dressage.
So please, can someone enlighten me as to why a group of individuals who will compete individually using their own equipment that they have produced (horse) would have to train as a team?

Only area I can see the team aspect comming in to play is if the members dont get on with each other.


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## BBH (26 May 2010)

Yes they do jump individually but the collective performance of those individuals  effects the team results and therefore the preparation of each person/ horse should be geared towards an overall aim of achieving the best team results.

IMO showjumping team members are no different to other sports, ie football is played with individuals doing their best on the pitch to achieve team success, you don't see David Beckham with Peter Crouch on his back together, no they are on the pitch as individuals doing the best they can to help team performance.  

I do agree though that in the case of SJing its not like other sports in that they don't train as a team and are therefore working in isolation until team call up so the mentality of unity may not be as strong. Football teams are such that they train and play as a team much more frequently than call up for SJ nations cup stuff.


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## stormybracken (26 May 2010)

Amelia27 said:



			I've seen her lose the plot with her horse far too many times in public and can only imagine what goes on at home 

Her behaviour with a grey mare at the top of the Bank at Hickstead made me stop watching show jumping any more.
		
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## BBH (26 May 2010)

stormybracken said:





Amelia27 said:



			I've seen her lose the plot with her horse far too many times in public and can only imagine what goes on at home 

Her behaviour with a grey mare at the top of the Bank at Hickstead made me stop watching show jumping any more.
		
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No that wasn't one of her finest moments was it.

As an aside what a team for Rome, RH has clearly called on the big guns.

Secondly I can't believe that BS has such a small number of members , 16k. Was really shocked when you think of how many horse riders we have in this country. Just shows that there is a huge divide between jobbing and recreational riders.
		
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## PaddyMonty (26 May 2010)

LHS said:



			Yes they do jump individually but the collective performance of those individuals  effects the team results and therefore the preparation of each person/ horse should be geared towards an overall aim of achieving the best team results.
		
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Dont really agree, the preperation of each indiviadual should be geared to achieving their best possible result which would then give the combined team score its best possible.  As each of the members compete most of the time outside the team it is reasonable to assume their preperation is the best it could be to achieve their maximum performance.

Analogy with football doesn't really hold water.  The players in a football team HAVE to work together ON the pitch.  They also never participate in their sport outside of a team environment, its impossible to do it.

Showjumpers train and develop both themselves and their horses as individuals and one would assume have learnt to get the maximum from the partnership or they wouldn't be at the top of their game.


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## Mynstrel (26 May 2010)

We rewatched some of Olympia last night (nothing on telly) & it showed an interview with EW regarding teams & the problems in british showjumping.  I can't remember the exact words but "we all need to pull together & put the team first rather than only thinking of ourselves" or words to that effect were mentioned.  I'd be interested to know what has gone on behind the scenes to cause a complete u-turn in her thoughts.  

If anybody still has it, it was the world cup qualifier programme, it made interesting watching after what's gone on in the last couple of weeks


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## Marsbar (26 May 2010)

This is a reply to no-one in particular, but my observation is, that maybe BS (ie. RH), is just as fed up as we are, with people at the top of their game, cherry picking what they want to do.  Team members can't pick and choose where they want to jump, just because their name is Whitaker.  I have heard too many times, that people are put on standby to jump a NC, as "we are waiting for a decision from xxxxx Whitaker".  Huge respect to Rob Hoekstra for breaking the cycle.


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## Onyxia (26 May 2010)

Equibrit said:



			It has to be a pain in the bum when you have planned out your only competitive horse's show year; the events he will attend, his training and rest periods, management etc.. Having scheduled all that taking into account the other horses you have to pilot through their training and showing, Hoekstra comes along and wants to throw a spanner in your plans. Not only that, but he thinks you should drop everything to accommodate him. I think for somebody who makes their living with jumping horses it is pretty unreasonable to expect Ms Whitaker to just be a good girl and do as she's told. I would imagine that if he pulled the same **** with the male members of the clan they would give him the same answer that Stephen did.
		
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Thats horses  
If you were given the chance to be on the team and had planned your horses year assuming you wouldnt make it,you would pretty quickly be able to change your plans.
I also dont think it has anything to do with her being a woman either-if RH is doing what he belives to be the right thing for the team then any rider not in line with the teams plans will have to comply or move aside.

Have to admit,my first thoughts on reading the article was "thank christ we have a manager with the balls to do what he thinks is right".

TarrSteps is right,it's a strong team for Rome and if they bring home the goods it will only serve to remind riders that no one is bigger then anyone else.


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## abc :D (26 May 2010)

i think that Ellen Whitaker not jumping for GB isn't really a big loss! she is a spoilt girl who doesn't realise how lucky she is, and I think the fact the 2 of her brothers have left home and based themselves somewhere else or with other people proves my point. the fact that she didn't want to go to Lummen because it was to close to La Baule, but would go to Newmarket and Notts county just to win a bit of money is ridiculous. she basicly contradicted herself, as Newmarket and Notts county was closer than Lummen to La Baule. 

You would have thought that being asked to represent GB was an honour!! 

the fact that she doesn't have many rides could be the fact that if she didn't jump the socks off her horses to win a few extra pounds, she might not be in that situation. All of the other top riders manage to make money but still allow there top horses to have time off.

maybee she isnt as talanted as everybody thinks she is!


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## martlin (26 May 2010)

psst... it's Newark and Notts county, not Newmarket


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## gem24 (31 May 2010)

I dont think RH is the best man for the job, (Tim Stockdale did a fab job doin a bit of managing last year/this year tbh we need him) 
However, the amount of times I have seen Ellen pull her horses about and have hissy fits in the practice ring, being rude to everyone and yanking her horses around after a bad round I'd be happy to see her not jump for GB. Yes, most of the time she gets results but she's low on the horsemanship front, possibly because she has been brought up to see it as a business, and it's not good for kids that look up to her as they copy the behaviour.


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## dingle12 (31 May 2010)

She has always been a diva and has got way too big for her boots. She is nothing like the other whitakers.


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## BBH (1 June 2010)

The team did really well in Rome ( 2nd ) so she's clearly not indispensable, better not be a Diva forever cos she might not be invited back on the team.


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