# The myths about sugars, grass, fertiliser and laminitis



## Sebastian (30 September 2014)

Nearly every day I see people asking for advice regarding laminitis and grass. In all of these threads people post what they have been lead to believe, but it is not always correct and I do wonder about where these misconceptions come from. One of my neighbours is a riding instructor and she told me the other day that she is not going to cut her tall and very overgrown fields, because she is worried about laminitis in short grass! I decided not to argue, but there must be a reason why so many believe these "old tales". 

Myth: Short grass is stressed, and trying to grow - therefore the sugar levels are far higher than long stalky grass. Leafy and "lush" short grass is the biggest cause of laminitis and must be avoided.
Fact: Actively growing and fertilised grass has the lowest levels of sugars. 

Myth: Fertilised grass has higher sugar levels and causes laminitis
Fact: Fertiliser applied when grass is growing lowers the levels of sugars. Nutrient deficiency causes sugars to accumulate. 

Myth: Grass should be left to grow long and not mowed. Leafy and "lush" short grass is the biggest cause of laminitis and must be avoided.
Fact: Grass contains the most sugars when it develops seed heads, which contain very high concentrations of sugars. Leafy regrowth has the lowest sugar levels. 

Source: all over the place, but this is the best and most concise one I can find

http://www.safergrass.org/pdf/VCNApreprint.pdf

For those too lazy to read the whole thing 

























Edit: NSC = nonstructural carbohydrates, i.e sugar, starch and fructan


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## bakewell (30 September 2014)

Also, if it's an almost unmanageable problem and you have lami prone ponies... reseed your grass with laminitis mix!


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## Sebastian (30 September 2014)

bakewell said:



			Also, if it's an almost unmanageable problem and you have lami prone ponies... reseed your grass with laminitis mix!
		
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Indeed. Rye grass free mixes are easily available.




			The university also analysed the fructose content of a range of old pasture grass species including Yorkshire Fog, Meadow Fescue, Cocksfoot, Creeping Bent, Red Fescue, as well as Bull Grass (Bromus mellis) and Crested Dogstail. The Ibers grass-seed bank in Mid Wales, donated verified grass-seed from old grass species.
The research project ran from October 2012 until October 2013 and included seasonal comparisons of sugar content together with a two hourly comparisons of five native grass species and two types of perennial rye.

The first set of results received were quite remarkable, indicating the fructose content of both the old and new varieties of perennial rye were high compared to the inferior grass species. The new variety is the highest with a 332mg/g fructose content in comparison to 0.52mg/g in Meadow Fescue. Therefore modern perennial rye-grass, which is the most popular type of grass grown in the UK, has the potential to give the laminitic-prone pony a double whammy of sugar in the form of fructose and also a high ingested fructan level.
Meadow Fescue contains 0.52mg/g fructose, 0.26mg/g glucose and 0.19mg/g sucrose, while the Crested Dogstail results are 0.48, 0.23 and 0.13.

If given the choice of perennial rye over Meadow Fescue the horse will inevitably choose the sweeter variety and over indulge on its sweet sugary content. But though the horse might choose to eat this type of grass because it tastes so sweet, the Meadow Fescue will be a far healthier choice, especially for the native pony.
		
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http://www.farmersguardian.com/home...our-grass-for-a-horse-to-graze?/63000.article


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## Jaycee (30 September 2014)

I've recently covered this in at university and I agree whole heartdly with the OP that there is a tremendous amount of confusion in the best way forward if you have a  horse/pony prone to laminitis. We had a guest lecturer come in from a certain barefoot advocate group that claims that grass of any type  is the main cause of laminitis which apparently a large percentage of the UK horse population suffer from in one form or another and that we should all keep our horses barefoot and on a track system only feeding them hay - as horses are not designed to eat/process grass! Whilst I appreciate that laminitis is an awful condition for any horse/pony to suffer from I too wish that people would look more into the real facts about grass during its different stages of growth etc., rather than following the current trend


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## NZJenny (1 October 2014)

Not only in regards to grass, but also soaking of hay.  Again it seems to be myths v facts and I don't know anyone here in NZ who does it.


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## OldNag (1 October 2014)

Thank you. I understood that short grass was the enemy...  turns out not.


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## PeterNatt (1 October 2014)

There are many different opinions about the relationship between short grass and Laminitis so please do not take the above post as gospel.
If you wish to do further reading on the matter then I recommend reading 'Equine Laminitis - Managing pasture to reduce risk' published by the Australian Government Rural Industries Research and Development Corporation (RIRDC) Published in 2010  ISBN 978 1 74254 036 8  ISSN 1440-6845


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## twiggy2 (1 October 2014)

It is now thought that very very few cases of laminitis are down to grass and sugars alone and that in nearly every case the laminitis is a SYMPTOM of either cushings, EMS or stress (mental or physical) so managing those will eliminate nearly all cases of lami. obesity is often a cause of EMS (long term cause) so weight needs to be controlled but the thinking that grass per se needs to be restricted is beginning to be doubted. feeding needs to be managed alongside weight by various means not just restricting grass-horses need work (where possible) to keep the body as a whole healthy


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## Sebastian (1 October 2014)

PeterNatt said:



			There are many different opinions about the relationship between short grass and Laminitis so please do not take the above post as gospel.
If you wish to do further reading on the matter then I recommend reading 'Equine Laminitis - Managing pasture to reduce risk' published by the Australian Government Rural Industries Research and Development Corporation (RIRDC) Published in 2010  ISBN 978 1 74254 036 8  ISSN 1440-6845
		
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Why don't you post at least a summary of these different opinions, so that we can have an interesting and frank discussion and debate?

You see, opinions on what triggers laminitis change as different research is done, but the misconceptions like the one below about grass and sugars will always be not true, yet it is taken as the gospel on the forum:




			Short grass is stressed, and trying to grow - therefore the sugar levels are far higher than long stalky grass
		
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This simply cannot be true, because of how plants work.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (1 October 2014)

I do think some people make horse keeping a lot more difficult than it needs to be. I've no problem with them doing that, as long as their horse is basically ok with whatever routine and management system they use. 

My viewpoint is: If people want to worry unduly about laminitis, let them. But I dont. Two of my horses are "at risk" you might say. One which had laminitis with a previous owner and one which a few years ago developed a cresty neck that never goes away even when lean, so IMO a possible metabolic problem. The laminitis case was due purely to suddenly over feeding and lack of work. The cresty neck developed on a horse which had always been fairly slim.

Due to a yard move these two, along with my others, are on decent grazing. Not rye grass, a mix of grass and weeds but a decent amount. It doesn't remotely resemble a starvation paddock. Every summer they get fat. Every winter they slim down. They are worked to a level that suits me, not because I feel I *have* to ride due to their weight. Winter is hard enough work, I'm not interested in stabling in summer too. I detest muzzles. I have no problem if others want to use them but I won't. IME the horse is miserable and the muzzles rub or come off. Soaked hay (more than about half hour) absolutely stinks and the water it comes out of looks disgusting. No, I won't feed that to my horses. Apart from anything else, I have better things to do than lug heavy dripping hay nets around. Anything with dust problems has haylage. 

Guess what? My horse keeping routine is easily manageable by me, doesn't give me a headache or create unnecessary work and none of my horses has ever died from it. None has ever had laminitis with me. They are all happy and living a fairly natural life. IMO life is too short for all the worrying and faffing that goes on with a lot of horse owners. 

If one of mine ever develops laminitis for no apparent reason (getting into the feed bin, illness, stress etc), I will consider it a symptom of serious metabolic problems and PTS in the animals best interests. Rather than months of painful laminitis recovery followed by a life of muzzles, manky soaked hay and restricted grazing for the poor horse, with riding suddenly becoming a chore that *must* be done.


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## Auslander (1 October 2014)

Yet - on the very same site - a document which states "Do not over graze pastures.The bottom few inches of grass stems often serve as plant carbohydrate reservoir and contain high concentrations of non fibre carbohydrates. Even though intake may be limited on an overgrazed pasture, horses may still ingest too much carbohydrate due to the high carbohydrate concentrations in stem bases.

It's very very subjective, and probably unwise to make emphatic statements, as there really is no final conclusion. I'm no expert, but in my experience, laminitic horses seem to do better on old, long grass. There was a post on this subject recently, where the OP commented that her horses crest became hard on short grass, yet remained normal on longer, older grass. Go figure!


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## windand rain (1 October 2014)

Sugar and Spice that is exactly what I would have written I cannot see the point in worrying and faffing mine have never had laminitis under my regime which is much the same as yours. I did have a pony get it when he was let onto the growing hay by walkers so I thought I would try to help him out by restricting him He hated it became hateful and dangerous so he now lives with the rest does a little work from time to time but I keep them on over grazed fields in summer and let them lose weight in winter works for me too. My theory is that they expend far more energy trying to fill themselves up moving than they get from the grass they are grazing


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## Palindrome (1 October 2014)

I guess it's more complicated than just high or low sugar. I have also heard older grass contains more lignin so this could also affect it's digestion.


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## fattylumpkin (1 October 2014)

I think like Auslander says it's very very subjective.  About a billion factors all play into laminitis.  I think it's best to educate owners on the universal warning signs that come before a horse develops chronic laminitis (unless caused by a freak incident as sometimes happens) and that way the owners can adjust according to individual needs, rather than try to fit their horses into a cookie cutter lifestyle that advocates all laminitics be treated exactly the same.


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## DanceswithCows (1 October 2014)

Right yeah, short grass contains less energy and it's the stalky seedy stuff that's the problem.  That explains why the farming industry decided not to start baling lush ryegrasses at the short and leafy stage and opted to stay with ye olde hay meadows, letting them seed before baling.


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## Sebastian (1 October 2014)

Auslander said:



			Yet - on the very same site - a document which states "Do not over graze pastures.The bottom few inches of grass stems often serve as plant carbohydrate reservoir and contain high concentrations of non fibre carbohydrates. Even though intake may be limited on an overgrazed pasture, horses may still ingest too much carbohydrate due to the high carbohydrate concentrations in stem bases.

It's very very subjective, and probably unwise to make emphatic statements, as there really is no final conclusion. I'm no expert, but in my experience, laminitic horses seem to do better on old, long grass. There was a post on this subject recently, where the OP commented that her horses crest became hard on short grass, yet remained normal on longer, older grass. Go figure!
		
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If you're referring to the same recent topic that I am thinking of, then another poster in there said that their horses became fat on long grass and are doing better on short grass. 

The bottom few inches that you're referring to must be the crown, where grasses store a lot of their reserves.







Horses prefer leafy bits, so they are not likely to eat that low, unless there is nothing left and growing conditions are not favourable and there is little regrowth. You don't want them eating that low anyway, since it's likely to kill the plant. Therefore good management is important to ensure that there is a steady supply of food.


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## _GG_ (1 October 2014)

I find posts like this a little concerning if I am honest. We are all guilty of thinking we or something we have read/heard is the right way sometimes, but as has been said by the OP, "opinions change as different research is done". That's it, in a nutshell. 

What concerns me when one set of research is hailed as the best/correct etc. is that people can read it, believe it and follow it and that can be to the detriment of their horse(s). 

For some horses, long grass works best. For some, short grass works best. 

All the research in the world into these kinds of issues will do absolutely nothing to offer practical help to those trying to avoid/manage the issue because the research done on grasses at different stages cannot ever be applied to every horse and their totally individual digestive/metabolic systems. 

I agree with the OP that some of the myths are at best silly and at worst, potentially dangerous, but then, so is the information contained in that article because it omits the most important factor...the individual horse. 

It's really not, in my opinion, as case of learning about the grasses. That knowledge can be useful, but it has to be more geared to teaching owners how to assess their horses and monitor how they do on different grasses at different lengths and tailor the management of the horse around those findings. To do anything else puts some horses at risk.


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## pennyturner (1 October 2014)

FWIW (and with no scientific evidence behind me, so feel free to contradict), I believe restricting grazing does more harm than good in many cases because it also restricts movement, which is a major contributor to good circulatory health.

Mine aren't restricted, get fat in summer (but not horrifically fat, as they're on grass/weeds, not hard feed), and a bit thin towards the end of the winter.  Those in danger of dropping too much condition get a bit of extra hay / haylege / time on the lawn.  The older boy gets rugged up, so he can maintain condition on the same forage rations as the rest.  They move about lots in winter looking for anything they might have overlooked, as most of their calories still come from the field, not hay.  This seems to work, and is less stressful for them and me.


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## Sebastian (1 October 2014)

_GG_ said:



			I find posts like this a little concerning if I am honest. We are all guilty of thinking we or something we have read/heard is the right way sometimes, but as has been said by the OP, "opinions change as different research is done". That's it, in a nutshell. 

What concerns me when one set of research is hailed as the best/correct etc. is that people can read it, believe it and follow it and that can be to the detriment of their horse(s). 

For some horses, long grass works best. For some, short grass works best. 

All the research in the world into these kinds of issues will do absolutely nothing to offer practical help to those trying to avoid/manage the issue because the research done on grasses at different stages cannot ever be applied to every horse and their totally individual digestive/metabolic systems. 

I agree with the OP that some of the myths are at best silly and at worst, potentially dangerous, but then, so is the information contained in that article because it omits the most important factor...the individual horse. 

It's really not, in my opinion, as case of learning about the grasses. That knowledge can be useful, but it has to be more geared to teaching owners how to assess their horses and monitor how they do on different grasses at different lengths and tailor the management of the horse around those findings. To do anything else puts some horses at risk.
		
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I am not denying anything that you said, however, my points is first and foremost about sugar levels in grasses. Do you not find the fact that this little morsel, "Short grass is stressed, and trying to grow - therefore the sugar levels are far higher than long stalky grass.&#8221;, is thrown around as the gospel and fact on the forum frightening? I do, because no matter how much opinions change with new research, how plants grow will not change.


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## TGM (1 October 2014)

I'm not sure I can go with the "let them get fat and if they get laminitis, knock it on the head" approach!  But perhaps I have a different outlook as husband is a farrier and I've spoken to so many heartbroken owners who wished they had done things differently before their animals succumbed to laminitis.  One of the most common comments is "but X has been always been fat but never had laminitis before so I thought he'd be OK".   Unfortunately, being overweight is really a big health risk for equines, and the longer they are overweight, the greater the chance of them developing metabolic problems. It is now known that fat cells can produce a wide range of hormones - if the animal's fat deposits are larger than normal then this can upset the hormone balance and result in the animal becoming insulin resistant, which in turn makes the animal very susceptible to laminitis.  So actually being fat long term can trigger the metabolic conditions that can cause laminitis when the animal ingests too many non-structural carbohydrates (ie sugar and starch).

There are different ways to manage lami prone animals and they don't all have to include muzzling and soaking hay - you have to make the best choice for the individual concerned.  I have a pony who easily puts on weight, so she gets a separate strip of grazing where she has to wander around a lot to eat.  And yes, sometimes I do have to ride her more than I always want to because I want to keep her fit and sometimes it is hard work to keep horses healthy and sound - personally I want to avoid a situation where I have to have my pony put down because I can't be bothered to put the work in!


I posted this quote from a vet site in a previous thread on the subject, unfortunately the original article I linked to has now gone, but I think the quote explains what the theory quite well:

 "Obesity, as a direct result of excessive calorie intake, is the primary cause of insulin resistance in horses (as with people). It is now known that fat cells can produce a wide range of hormones and inflammatory mediators. These hormones down-regulate the sensitivity of tissues to insulin, which is a normal body function. However, if they are produced by larger than normal deposits of fat, their down-regulatory action is too much for the body to cope with and insulin resistance occurs. The excessive production of inflammatory mediators by the fat tissue also leads to a constant state of low grade inflammation. "


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## _GG_ (1 October 2014)

Sebastian said:



			I am not denying anything that you said, however, my points is first and foremost about sugar levels in grasses. Do you not find the fact that this little morsel, "Short grass is stressed, and trying to grow - therefore the sugar levels are far higher than long stalky grass.&#8221;, is thrown around as the gospel and fact on the forum frightening? I do, because no matter how much opinions change with new research, how plants grow will not change.
		
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I do find it worrying. That's why I think people should be encouraged to learn about their particular horse as well as learning about grasses.


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## mystiandsunny (1 October 2014)

In my direct experience: fertilized, lush rye grass that is growing on rich soil is the most likely to trigger laminitis.  That aside, the most dangerous weather conditions are rain after a period of sunny weather.  Those conditions affect my EPSM horse and my lami prone one.  Short grass is preferred by the horses (I think because of greater exposure to sunlight per cm of stem but not sure!) and long, woody grass does not cause problems.  Poorer soil is always better, especially well drained soil.  

On a well drained, sloping hillside with poor soil and grass that is allowed to grow long and woody, I can keep my lami prone mare and her EPSM companion out 24/7 with grazing muzzles.  Works for us.


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## Sebastian (1 October 2014)

I'm not sure I can go with the "let them get fat and if they get laminitis, knock it on the head" approach!
		
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Who is advocating that approach?

As you said, excessive calorie intake is a problem and we completely agree on that. The misconception that I am trying to address is, "Short grass is stressed, and trying to grow - therefore the sugar levels are far higher than long stalky grass". Short grass is not stressed if it is growing. Growing grass is the opposite of stressed grass, even though many people think it means the same thing.


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## Sebastian (1 October 2014)

mystiandsunny said:



			In my direct experience: fertilized, lush rye grass that is growing on rich soil is the most likely to trigger laminitis.  That aside, the most dangerous weather conditions are rain after a period of sunny weather.  Those conditions affect my EPSM horse and my lami prone one.  Short grass is preferred by the horses (I think because of greater exposure to sunlight per cm of stem but not sure!) and long, woody grass does not cause problems.  Poorer soil is always better, especially well drained soil.  

On a well drained, sloping hillside with poor soil and grass that is allowed to grow long and woody, I can keep my lami prone mare and her EPSM companion out 24/7 with grazing muzzles.  Works for us.
		
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Rye grass is most likely to cause problems, regardless of what stage of growth it is at. Fertilised and actively growing rye grass will have less "sugar" than dormant/stressed rye grass. How "sugar" intake affects a particular horse is another discussion and I agree with _GG_'s views on that point.


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## PolarSkye (1 October 2014)

To be honest, this debate is as circular as all those about whether to rug, clip, stable, etc.  Yes, the basic physiology of grasses remains the same . . . but, horses are individuals.  Put simply, it's dangerous to blindly follow science without taking into account the many factors that contribute to how the individual *should be* managed:  breed, age, general health, location (Siberia or Hawaii), amount and type of work, quality/nature of grazing, amount of time stabled, etc.

Two other factors which need to be taken into account:  knowledge of owner/carer/manager, and "relativity" - by which I mean what are the benchmarks . . . one person's "medium" work level, is often not the same as someone else's.  I know plenty of owners who would say their horses were in medium work who would be dead wrong . . . and the scary thing is that they manage their horses to that benchmark - in terms of feeding, rugging, stabling, physio/bodywork, etc.

I'm not sure if the above makes any sense - it did in my head .

P


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## _GG_ (1 October 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			To be honest, this debate is as circular as all those about whether to rug, clip, stable, etc.  Yes, the basic physiology of grasses remains the same . . . but, horses are individuals.  Put simply, it's dangerous to blindly follow science without taking into account the many factors that contribute to how the individual *should be* managed:  breed, age, general health, location (Siberia or Hawaii), amount and type of work, quality/nature of grazing, amount of time stabled, etc.

Two other factors which need to be taken into account:  knowledge of owner/carer/manager, and "relativity" - by which I mean what are the benchmarks . . . one person's "medium" work level, is often not the same as someone else's.  I know plenty of owners who would say their horses were in medium work who would be dead wrong . . . and the scary thing is that they manage their horses to that benchmark - in terms of feeding, rugging, stabling, physio/bodywork, etc.

I'm not sure if the above makes any sense - it did in my head .

P
		
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Perfect sense to me


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## Sebastian (1 October 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			To be honest, this debate is as circular as all those about whether to rug, clip, stable, etc.  Yes, the basic physiology of grasses remains the same . . . but, horses are individuals.  Put simply, it's dangerous to blindly follow science without taking into account the many factors that contribute to how the individual *should be* managed:  breed, age, general health, location (Siberia or Hawaii), amount and type of work, quality/nature of grazing, amount of time stabled, etc.

Two other factors which need to be taken into account:  knowledge of owner/carer/manager, and "relativity" - by which I mean what are the benchmarks . . . one person's "medium" work level, is often not the same as someone else's.  I know plenty of owners who would say their horses were in medium work who would be dead wrong . . . and the scary thing is that they manage their horses to that benchmark - in terms of feeding, rugging, stabling, physio/bodywork, etc.

I'm not sure if the above makes any sense - it did in my head .

P
		
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I most agree with you and it does make a lot of sense, but personally, I prefer facts from repeatable experiments and testing using a scientific method, than going by anecdotal evidence and advice given by people when we do not know the random and uncontrolled factors, which is exactly what you mentioned. You can add others into it as well, like amount of shade in the paddocks and so forth.


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## _GG_ (1 October 2014)

Sebastian said:



			I most agree with you and it does make a lot of sense, but personally, I prefer facts from repeatable experiments and testing using a scientific method, than going by anecdotal evidence and advice given by people when we do not know the random and uncontrolled factors, which is exactly what you mentioned. You can add others into it as well, like amount of shade in the paddocks and so forth.
		
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That's just the point. I too err towards science in almost all scenarios, but not where one of the factors is a living thing. I think that scientific research is incredibly important and should absolutely be taken into advantage. I just don't think it should be followed to the t without consideration of the other factors.


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## PolarSkye (1 October 2014)

Sebastian said:



			I most agree with you and it does make a lot of sense, but personally, I prefer facts from repeatable experiments and testing using a scientific method, than going by anecdotal evidence and advice given by people when we do not know the random and uncontrolled factors, which is exactly what you mentioned. You can add others into it as well, like amount of shade in the paddocks and so forth.
		
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I prefer facts too, not to mention repeatable experiments - however once you leave the laboratory and start applying the science across the broader horsey world, you lose the rigour - which is why the science needs to be tempered with variables - which brings us back to individuality - of horses, owners, and all the factors mentioned above.

P


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## cobgoblin (1 October 2014)

For me the really interesting thing to come out of this thread is the relative difference in the sugar content of different grasses. I'm sure we all knew that ryegrass isn't the best for horses, but I'm astounded at how much more sugar it contains
  Does anyone know whether laminitis is as common in countries where old natural pastures still remain in any quantity? I ask because I have an elderly friend who was born in Bavaria between the two world wars, she has always been surprised at the prevalence of laminitis in the uk. She says that when she was a child everyone's ponies used to eat as much grass as they liked and were enormously fat in the summer, in the winter they were fed hay and oats, but laminitis was unheard of unless a pony broke into the feed bin!


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## Sugar_and_Spice (1 October 2014)

Good horse management is an art rather than a science.


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## PolarSkye (1 October 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			For me the really interesting thing to come out of this thread is the relative difference in the sugar content of different grasses. I'm sure we all knew that ryegrass isn't the best for horses, but I'm astounded at how much more sugar it contains
  Does anyone know whether laminitis is as common in countries where old natural pastures still remain in any quantity? I ask because I have an elderly friend who was born in Bavaria between the two world wars, she has always been surprised at the prevalence of laminitis in the uk. *She says that when she was a child everyone's ponies used to eat as much grass as they liked and were enormously fat in the summer, in the winter they were fed hay and oats, but laminitis was unheard of unless a pony broke into the feed bin!*

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But could that also be because the ponies actually worked hard enough, didn't wear rugs, lived out, had large enough fields, etc.?  It could certainly be down to the types of grass/weeds/herbs they ate, but there will have been other factors too . . . 

. . . very interesting topic.

P


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## PolarSkye (1 October 2014)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			Good horse management is an art rather than a science.
		
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Precisely!

P


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## tallyho! (1 October 2014)

Sebastian, your opening post whilst addressing these myths, is a highly irresponsible post. 

Laminitis is not caused by grass. It is caused by an inability to metabolise its sugars. I think there has been huge advances in understanding this disease and it is no longer as simple as grass causes laminitis.


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## LadyGascoyne (1 October 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			For me the really interesting thing to come out of this thread is the relative difference in the sugar content of different grasses. I'm sure we all knew that ryegrass isn't the best for horses, but I'm astounded at how much more sugar it contains
  Does anyone know whether laminitis is as common in countries where old natural pastures still remain in any quantity? I ask because I have an elderly friend who was born in Bavaria between the two world wars, she has always been surprised at the prevalence of laminitis in the uk. She says that when she was a child everyone's ponies used to eat as much grass as they liked and were enormously fat in the summer, in the winter they were fed hay and oats, but laminitis was unheard of unless a pony broke into the feed bin!
		
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In my experience is significantly less common in South Africa. You seldom hear about it and if you do, it's generally an incredibly obese pony or post-op/box rest. 

We've got lush grass on the farm throughout winter and spring, then very dry grass over summer and autumn. My uncle has had his horses for over 40 years, keeping a minimum of 30 horses at a time. They live out all year around. He's never had a case of laminitis in his life.

Horses are Clydesdales, Arabs, Thoroughbreds, American Saddlers, welshies, boerperds and warmbloods.


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## MotherOfChickens (1 October 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			For me the really interesting thing to come out of this thread is the relative difference in the sugar content of different grasses. I'm sure we all knew that ryegrass isn't the best for horses, but I'm astounded at how much more sugar it contains
		
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I have Exmoor ponies. The last few years I've really struggled with them and they've been on lush, very fertile (for Scotland) land that's mainly used for arable farming. The ponies were not rugged or fed much and out 24/7 except in the summer when I had to do horrible strip grazing etc etc and restrict (one is retired, one was aged 2-4years old). It was a constant worry and hassle of moving fences, checking fences, keeping them in etc etc 

We moved last year to South Lanarkshire. Poor, old grazing land-prone to wet. We found extra grazing by way of a field that a farmer can't be bothered to use for various reasons but mainly because you can't get machinery in it to fertilize it (grazing around me is fertilized several times a year and used for cattle and sheep and then further up the hill its sheep only in winter). So its not been fertilized in memory, it floods in winter and is a mix of all sorts including rushes and was thigh deep in old grass etc when I put them on it (nervously). They look grand this year-they have been muzzled some, the (now) 5yo is in light work and they have a 3yo chasing them but to have them out on 5/6 acres on varied terrain has been bliss for them and me. So I really think it does make a huge difference.


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## cobgoblin (1 October 2014)

LadyGascoyne said:



			In my experience is significantly less common in South Africa. You seldom hear about it and if you do, it's generally an incredibly obese pony or post-op/box rest. 

We've got lush grass on the farm throughout winter and spring, then very dry grass over summer and autumn. My uncle has had his horses for over 40 years, keeping a minimum of 30 horses at a time. They live out all year around. He's never had a case of laminitis in his life.

Horses are Clydesdales, Arabs, Thoroughbreds, American Saddlers, welshies, boerperds and warmbloods.
		
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That's really interesting. I have no idea about the grasses that grow in South Africa but I presume you don't have the ryegrass monoculture that is so common in the UK.
  It must be lovely not to have the threat of laminitis at the forefront of your mind all the time.


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## southerncomfort (1 October 2014)

I also find the opening a post a little worrying.  I've never really believed that the amount of sugar in grass has any influence over whether a horse gets laminitis or not *the first time*.  Basically, my experience is that it's down to allowing an already fat animal to eat too much and it doesn't make much difference whether that is short grass/long grass/hay.  Too much food will make a horse fat!

HOWEVER, my experience also seems to show that once a horse has had Laminitis in the past, exposure to very rich, sweet grazing results very rapidly in fat pads and a cresty neck.  This may not be born out by others experiences but it does seem to show that once horses can be described as 'laminitic' that they are much more sensitive to changes in the sugar levels/richness of the grass than they were previously.

Personally I'll continue to trust the advice of the Laminitis Trust.


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## samlf (1 October 2014)

Interesting post - but my horses disagree with you, and I let them judge it for me.

One cannot tolerate fertilised grass whatsoever - think massive bloating and liquid poo (not cow pat, far worse than that). She can tolerate reasonable amounts of unfertilised non-rye foggage or mature long grass in early summer, but not short 'lush' grass from the same field at that time of year.


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## thatsmygirl (1 October 2014)

I tend to disagree with this info and let my ponies decide what they can/can't tolerate and fertilised grass is a big no no and long gone over grass is by far the best for my lot instead of short grass that bloats them out and gives them crests.


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## Sebastian (1 October 2014)

I think many of you are misunderstanding my first post. I'll update my first post to make sure it is clearer when I am at home , but I am not suggesting what works best for your horse, nor disagreeing with your anecdotal evidence. I am not an expert in laminitis, nor do I claim to be, but I do know a fair bit about grass. 

Simply put, the intention is to inform about the levels of sugars in different grasses and in various conditions based on scientific facts. 

How high levels of sugars, or low levels of sugars, affect your horse is a different discussion. 

How your horse responds to the fact that there is more grass is a different discussion. 

How your horse responds to the minerals in grass is another discussion.


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## fattylumpkin (1 October 2014)

I found your opening post interest, Sebastian  I'm sorry if my reply seemed like it was critical, it really wasn't directed at you, just more of a lament at how regimented horse management is becoming.


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## Sebastian (1 October 2014)

No worries at all . Reading through I can see how people can get the wrong end of the stick.


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## pinklilly (1 October 2014)

Interesting.  I have a 7yo tb who started with mild laminitis 2 years ago and I had major trouble with him on one particular yard which the turn out fields had been arable and were planted with purely rye grass and he could tolerate no more than about 2 hours around June time.  Now on a different yard and he managed a couple of months out 24/7 in the summer and no bother with lami.  I had him tested for EMS and cushings and they were negative.  I have also knocked him off the metformin that he was prescribed at rye grass yard and so far so good.


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## Sebastian (1 October 2014)

Darn. I've just realised that you cannot edit your post once somebody else posts after that. So let me clarify. I am in no way confirming or denying whether low levels of "sugar", high levels of "sugar", fertilised grass, non-fertilised grass, short grass, tall grass, medium grass, dormant grass, spring grass, winter grass, autumn grass or summer grass causes or prevents laminitis. I have simply posted some facts about grass physiology and different levels of "sugar" in different grass varieties in various conditions. How you use that information is up to you.


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## Sebastian (1 October 2014)

samlf said:



			Interesting post - but my horses disagree with you, and I let them judge it for me.

One cannot tolerate fertilised grass whatsoever - think massive bloating and liquid poo (not cow pat, far worse than that). She can tolerate reasonable amounts of unfertilised non-rye foggage or mature long grass in early summer, but not short 'lush' grass from the same field at that time of year.
		
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What was the rate that the fertiliser was spread at and what fertiliser is it (what levels of NPK) ? What time of the year was the grass fertilised?


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## NZJenny (1 October 2014)

Laminitis was not as common in NZ 40 years ago, but now pastures are sown to maximise production for dairy cows.  Dairy has exploded in New Zealand in the last 20 years, and the pastures traditionally sown for sheep which are quite horse friendly, are now rare.


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## leggs (1 October 2014)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			Good horse management is an art rather than a science.
		
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well said.
I too am really confused, for 30 yrs thinking it is protein in grass that causis laminitis. Moving to my new house and having to sow new grasfields ....still confused !

but..having a new field i've had to cut the grass several times to make it fit for horses.  The cow-farmer that has cut it 4x now apparantly  does take samples of the grass to cut before he cuts it.  Even cows are (positively) affected by Sugar. I was really surprised, thought only us horse-owners worried about this.
I've asked the same question to (horse)vets here and never got a straight answer.
But having owned horses for 30+years, and (knock on wood) never had a case, I will continue as I was trying to keep weight down-which is not easy!


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## PollyP99 (1 October 2014)

Sebastian said:



			I am not denying anything that you said, however, my points is first and foremost about sugar levels in grasses. Do you not find the fact that this little morsel, "Short grass is stressed, and trying to grow - therefore the sugar levels are far higher than long stalky grass., is thrown around as the gospel and fact on the forum frightening? I do, because no matter how much opinions change with new research, how plants grow will not change.
		
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Doesn't the last paragraph under stages In Your original post basically say this though?? Confused.

The bit starting , however rapidly growing grass In over grazed pastures contains higher levels of NSC per acre.....

This is surely what is meant by short stressed grass rapidly growing in spring, so it agrees  with that which is often banded about on forums ...


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## Sebastian (1 October 2014)

PollyP99 said:



			Doesn't the last paragraph under stages In Your original post basically say this though?? Confused.

The bit starting , however rapidly growing grass In over grazed pastures contains higher levels of NSC per acre.....

This is surely what is meant by short stressed grass rapidly growing in spring, so it agrees  with that which is often banded about on forums ...
		
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Have you read the entire article to get the context?


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## samlf (1 October 2014)

Sebastian said:



			What was the rate that the fertiliser was spread at and what fertiliser is it (what levels of NPK) ? What time of the year was the grass fertilised?
		
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Sorry but I've no idea. Even if over winter if the grass has been fertilised she is slightly squishier than she should be.


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## Auslander (1 October 2014)

Sebastian said:



			Have you read the entire article to get the context?
		
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I read the whole article, and I still felt that it contradicted itself. Admittedly, I am already smarting about you repeatedly quoting a comment I made a few days ago, and thus making me out to be a complete idiot, but even when I went back and re-read it in a better mood, i still read it as it was written.


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## Sebastian (1 October 2014)

Auslander said:



			I read the whole article, and I still felt that it contradicted itself. Admittedly, I am already smarting about you repeatedly quoting a comment I made a few days ago, and thus making me out to be a complete idiot, but even when I went back and re-read it in a better mood, i still read it as it was written.
		
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I am sorry that I picked your particular comment. I've seen the same thing said before, but did not feel like looking for others when I wrote the OP, or rephrasing it. It was just me being lazy and not intentionally trying to pick on you - I apologise. 

&#8220;Stressed&#8221; grass cannot be growing rapidly. It is either stressed, or growing rapidly. As an example, that bit is saying that if you have a field that had no leafy grass left at the end of winter (overgrazed) and then grass starts to grow, then there is an overall increase in NSC (or sugars to keep it simple) available to a horse. 

However, rapidly growing grass will always have less sugar than long and stressed grass. If you look at any of the graphs, you&#8217;ll see what is going on. When the grass is cut and nitrogen is applied (green vertical lines)
, the short grass grows rapidly and  NSC% falls (point 3).  This same pattern repeats again in August after the grass is cut. Then, as the temperature drops and growth slows down in October and November the grass accumulates NSC. For rye grass, this long grass will have the highest NSC% in our cooler climate.


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## mystiandsunny (1 October 2014)

I think possibly the biggest problem with soft, rapidly growing and fertilized grass is the ease with which it can be eaten and digested.  Horses can eat enormous amounts of the stuff in a very short period of time.  It takes more time to eat a comparable amount of very short grass, and the woody stuff has to be digested more slowly.


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## SO1 (1 October 2014)

I totally agree with this - it is not good for any equine to be fat as it does not just put them at risk of laminitis but it is bad for their legs, hearts, lungs etc. Being overweight is as much of a health risk for horses as it is for people.

I think there is some thinking that laminitis is related to sugar intake and a bit like diabetes in that being overweight for a long time puts you at risk of getting diabetes, but that there will also be some people who are not overweight but will also get diabetes too for different reasons. So it is best to let yourself get very fat knowing that some people who are very overweight won't get diabetes or heart conditions or is better to try and eat healthy and exercise and stay slim. Yes it is more effort to eat a healthy diet and keep fit both for horses and people but in the long term it is best for both of us.

If grass is not the main problem then why is laminitis not so much of an issue in horses that are kept mainly stabled or is that a myth too?


TGM said:



			I'm not sure I can go with the "let them get fat and if they get laminitis, knock it on the head" approach!  But perhaps I have a different outlook as husband is a farrier and I've spoken to so many heartbroken owners who wished they had done things differently before their animals succumbed to laminitis.  One of the most common comments is "but X has been always been fat but never had laminitis before so I thought he'd be OK".   Unfortunately, being overweight is really a big health risk for equines, and the longer they are overweight, the greater the chance of them developing metabolic problems. It is now known that fat cells can produce a wide range of hormones - if the animal's fat deposits are larger than normal then this can upset the hormone balance and result in the animal becoming insulin resistant, which in turn makes the animal very susceptible to laminitis.  So actually being fat long term can trigger the metabolic conditions that can cause laminitis when the animal ingests too many non-structural carbohydrates (ie sugar and starch).

There are different ways to manage lami prone animals and they don't all have to include muzzling and soaking hay - you have to make the best choice for the individual concerned.  I have a pony who easily puts on weight, so she gets a separate strip of grazing where she has to wander around a lot to eat.  And yes, sometimes I do have to ride her more than I always want to because I want to keep her fit and sometimes it is hard work to keep horses healthy and sound - personally I want to avoid a situation where I have to have my pony put down because I can't be bothered to put the work in!


I posted this quote from a vet site in a previous thread on the subject, unfortunately the original article I linked to has now gone, but I think the quote explains what the theory quite well:

 "Obesity, as a direct result of excessive calorie intake, is the primary cause of insulin resistance in horses (as with people). It is now known that fat cells can produce a wide range of hormones and inflammatory mediators. These hormones down-regulate the sensitivity of tissues to insulin, which is a normal body function. However, if they are produced by larger than normal deposits of fat, their down-regulatory action is too much for the body to cope with and insulin resistance occurs. The excessive production of inflammatory mediators by the fat tissue also leads to a constant state of low grade inflammation. "
		
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## Sebastian (1 October 2014)

mystiandsunny said:



			I think possibly the biggest problem with soft, rapidly growing and fertilized grass is the ease with which it can be eaten and digested.  Horses can eat enormous amounts of the stuff in a very short period of time.  It takes more time to eat a comparable amount of very short grass, and the woody stuff has to be digested more slowly.
		
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Now that is actually a really good point that should be considered. Horses do prefer soft, fresh and leafy grass to stalky grasses. Some "food" for thought here.


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## Mike007 (1 October 2014)

Everything about this post assumes that sugars and laminitis are linked directly. Unfortunately research would seem to indicate otherwise.


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## PolarSkye (2 October 2014)

Sebastian said:



			Now that is actually a really good point that should be considered. *Horses do prefer soft, fresh and leafy grass to stalky grasses.* Some "food" for thought here.
		
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Not necessarily - ever grazed a horse in hand and watched him/her actively "forage" for different types of grasses?  I hand graze my boy often after a bath and he has always been rather picky about the grasses he eats and, even when there is soft/fresh/leafy grass on offer will seek out the stalky stuff too - and some weeds/herby types.  I can only assume he does that in his field as well - and I know he's been brambling lately because he has scratches on his nose .  

P


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## Montyforever (2 October 2014)

Laminitis is an unlucky combination of lots of different factors! Grass/hay/feed/weight/exercise and underlying medical issues all play a part imo

My mare had it once as a youngster while living out on marshy fields, then another bout while on short grass/in at night on soaked hay and overweight due to having some time off. 
She got diagnosed with Cushings last month so also a possible factor

She's been laminitis free for a good few years now. I judge everything by the day, she might go out in a muzzle she might not. She's in a fairly small field with a few other horses although its turned around a few times a year so times of a flush of new growth and times of "short stressed grass" 

She isn't put into a laminitic shaped box, just doesn't work. She's actually having haylage at the moment as the prascend has put her off hay. Everyone i tell that to tells me that she's bound to get laminitis... But the alternative is let her starve which will cause me more problems in the long run. 

So she's a good weight, laminitis free on short stressed grass while eating me out of house and home and chomping her way through a load of haylage and getting no exercise at the mo. But its working for us! 

There's no right or wrong Imo, just what works for your horse. So long as you can see the early warning signs you'll work it out


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## TGM (2 October 2014)

Mike007 said:



			Everything about this post assumes that sugars and laminitis are linked directly. Unfortunately research would seem to indicate otherwise.
		
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Can you post some links to that research?


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## Micky (2 October 2014)

Very interesting re the laminitis/short grass/long grass... My lad has PPID, diagnosed when he came down with laminitis last year. Short grass paddock, soaked hay and meds plus low sugar/starch feed sorted him out...He escaped one night onto longer lush grass, came in with pulses and hot feet plus footy... I disagree that laminitics can go onto longer grass. This grass hasnt been fertilised for years and is full of weeds too...The sugar levels are different in different parts of the country and the world ( NZ/Aus/France) due to the type of soil grown in surely? Despite research, i certainly wont be putting my horse onto 'lush longer' grass...though what i call rough grass would be the safer option, not fertilised or previously dairy grass.....It is very tricky and each owner has to find what works for their horse best.


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## Sebastian (2 October 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			Not necessarily - ever grazed a horse in hand and watched him/her actively "forage" for different types of grasses?  I hand graze my boy often after a bath and he has always been rather picky about the grasses he eats and, even when there is soft/fresh/leafy grass on offer will seek out the stalky stuff too - and some weeds/herby types.  I can only assume he does that in his field as well - and I know he's been brambling lately because he has scratches on his nose .  

P
		
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Hmm good point. I should not have generalised, but ours certainly do prefer the soft and fresh new growth. The Arab completely scoffs his nose at stalky grasses and huffs and puffs.


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## Sebastian (2 October 2014)

Mike007 said:



			Everything about this post assumes that sugars and laminitis are linked directly. Unfortunately research would seem to indicate otherwise.
		
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You&#8217;re right, the article does make that link, but that is not really my point. 

The line of thought that is posted here and all over the place goes like this

lush, fast growing spring grass = high levels of sugars = laminitis.

I am not actually postulating anything about the right side. I am wishing to clarify the left side and I cited the article purely because it is easy reading and has pretty diagrams. 

Here is another article that confirms the left side and casts doubts on the right, but I would love to read the research papers that you've mentioned


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## Sebastian (2 October 2014)

Micky said:



			Very interesting re the laminitis/short grass/long grass... My lad has PPID, diagnosed when he came down with laminitis last year. Short grass paddock, soaked hay and meds plus low sugar/starch feed sorted him out...He escaped one night onto longer lush grass, came in with pulses and hot feet plus footy... I disagree that laminitics can go onto longer grass. This grass hasnt been fertilised for years and is full of weeds too...The sugar levels are different in different parts of the country and the world ( NZ/Aus/France) due to the type of soil grown in surely? Despite research, i certainly wont be putting my horse onto 'lush longer' grass...though what i call rough grass would be the safer option, not fertilised or previously dairy grass.....It is very tricky and each owner has to find what works for their horse best.
		
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Not just due to the type of soil, but also due to the climate. For example, the same varieties of rye grass grown in NZ has much lower levels of NSC than in the UK.


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## Auslander (2 October 2014)

Micky said:



			Despite research, i certainly wont be putting my horse onto 'lush longer' grass...though what i call rough grass would be the safer option, not fertilised or previously dairy grass.....
		
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I don't think anyone has said that lush longer grass is a good idea! Where I said longer grass, I meant foggage - I've got a foggage area in my field where the grass is very long, very stalky, and very dry. Practically hay. Mine have all been on it for a few weeks now, and they've all noticeably lost weight.


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## PolarSkye (2 October 2014)

Auslander said:



			I don't think anyone has said that lush longer grass is a good idea! Where I said longer grass, I meant foggage - I've got a foggage area in my field where the grass is very long, very stalky, and very dry. Practically hay. Mine have all been on it for a few weeks now, and they've all noticeably lost weight.
		
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Ditto . . . this is what Kal is on - long, stalky, already seeding grass, with an under layer of soft green with multiple weeds and herbs . . . he has lost weight, despite being more settled in the field (so not pacing and actually eating/scoffing) and doing the bare minimum of work.  It is very interesting to watch him browse . . . picking out what he wants and leaving what he doesn't.  

P


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## cobgoblin (2 October 2014)

I'm not sure the paper actually contradicts any of the so-called myths about managing a laminitic horse. It presents a lot of facts but not necessarily in relation to horse management.
 For example, fertilising grass causes it to grow and have a lower concentration of sugar - I'm sure that's true but as you cannot put a horse on recently fertilised grass,so the grass will be longer and easier to scoff, so the horse will eat a bigger volume and therefore consume more sugar. In addition fertilised grass will have a higher protein content, if this protein is not required for tissue repair or growth then it will also be converted to glucose in the body, so more calories on top.

 The paper doesn't define short grass (or I couldn't find it). How short is short grass?
If it's 3" or 4" it would be easy for a horse to consume a lot, if short grass is 1" long it would be hard work and far fewer calories would be consumed even if the sugar content was high.


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## foraday (2 October 2014)

My boy could not tolerate grass full stop!

So took him off it completely!  6 years on I have a happy pony still EMS/PPID and controlled with regular bloods and meds but NO way would I introduce grass ever again to him.  He is happy running about a woodchip pen with ad lib rye haylage.

I think there are ALOT more environmental issues that cause it than we are led to believe or even understand.


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## SO1 (6 October 2014)

I was just wondering if anyone had any photo of different types of grasses.

I know what rye grass and timothy look like but there are some other grasses in our rested fields which have seed heads on them which are not rye grass or timothy and I was wondering what they were and how sugary they are.


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## maccachic (7 October 2014)

This altho written for dairy cows is some good food for thought when applied to horses:  http://www.nzgrazing.co.nz/articles/animal-health/pasture-quality/


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## joycec (7 October 2014)

I haven't read the whole of this so I'm sorry if it's been covered, but I'm puzzled.

Fertilized and short cropped/topped grass is much greener than non fertilized and longer grass. I though that green was chlorophyll. I thought chlorophyll was what the plant uses to make sugar out of sunlight. And I thought what grass did was make sugar while the sun shines and then use that sugar overnight to change it into other stuff so the plant grows.

So why would it not be true that plants more full of chlorophyll - the fertilized and topped stuff - have much more sugar in them before sunset on a sunny day  than the ones that aren't?


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## amandap (7 October 2014)

I believe the fertilize question means applying an appropriate fertilizer according to soil analysis not just any old one. Every situation and horse is individual so as said above, you have to learn to look for early warning signs and take action. I still wish more yards would provide grass free turnout areas or other measures to help. 

Some might find this perspective interesting, it concentrates on experiences with barefoot horses and effect on their hooves. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.ie/2014/10/troubleshooting-for-barefoot-horse.html


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## Janovich (7 October 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			I'm not sure the paper actually contradicts any of the so-called myths about managing a laminitic horse. It presents a lot of facts but not necessarily in relation to horse management.
 For example, fertilising grass causes it to grow and have a lower concentration of sugar - I'm sure that's true but as you cannot put a horse on recently fertilised grass,so the grass will be longer and easier to scoff, so the horse will eat a bigger volume and therefore consume more sugar. In addition fertilised grass will have a higher protein content, if this protein is not required for tissue repair or growth then it will also be converted to glucose in the body, so more calories on top.

 The paper doesn't define short grass (or I couldn't find it). How short is short grass?
If it's 3" or 4" it would be easy for a horse to consume a lot, if short grass is 1" long it would be hard work and far fewer calories would be consumed even if the sugar content was high.
		
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I'm in the above camp as far as managing 'my own' horse is concerned!  Grazed on short grass in the summer months with a pal and out overnight...then moved back into the small herd of 6, onto the winter field full of old meadow grass type foggage and unfertilised pasture with big undulating hills and plenty of shelter.  Works a treat as far as management for my EMS lad (who is also barefoot) is concerned.


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## Tnavas (7 October 2014)

So agree with you Sebastian, I keep my potential laminitis fat Clydesdae on a paddock so short that it's as smooth as a billiard table. She has to move around all day to get enough food to maintain her body condition.

This is the way I have managed all laminitis prone ponies over 40+ years. Works every time.


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## Janovich (7 October 2014)

Tnavas said:



			So agree with you Sebastian, I keep my potential laminitis fat Clydesdae on a paddock so short that it's as smooth as a billiard table. She has to move around all day to get enough food to maintain her body condition.

This is the way I have managed all laminitis prone ponies over 40+ years. Works every time.
		
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This is the way I've managed my EMS boy too and works for us!


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## Donkeyslave (26 August 2018)

I live in Spain and am privileged to have two donkeys in my family. The female donkey had a recent bout of laminitis and a nasty abscess. She recovered quickly and is now sound and happy again. She was very overweight and going for slaughter because she was always on and off lame before i rescued her.
I keep her in a large dust/rock paddock with a permanently open large stable which she shares with my gelding donkey.
I have another fenced paddock leading from this on which rough grass and weeds grow. There is no "good" grazing here as we live half way up a mountain in the Sierra Nevadas.
 Water is limited during the summer months and so I guess my foliage and grazing is always "stressed".
I feed her lots of barley straw and very limited "faraje" which is the coarse hay available here. I allow her 1kg. a day of this soaked for 30 mins and then rinsed off. This is split into two feeds in small hole hay nets and the straw into three feeds in small hole nets. In the winter she also has a double handful of straw and faraje chaff with Pavo "Care 4 Life". I cut my own chaff as I brought an old manual chaff cutter with me from England so that I can tailor the content of hay/straw to suit. My gelding is fit and healthy on the same diet but he is smaller than her so I guess the reducing diet works for both. i feed roughly 1.5% of bodyweight and never, ever, any grain.  
My problem is that I feel that they psychologically need to browse and I usually let them through to the other paddock in the morning for a few hours but since her recent bout (the first in 3 yrs since I've owned her) I am frightened to do this as I am worried whether there is too much sugar in my rough grazing. I'm as stressed as the grass!
I have a brilliant vet and a farrier who has transformed her front feet (one club foot and one wry foot, both overgrown and previously trimmed with a circular saw!)
but I am worried about her grazing because in the Spring they usually go up to the top of the mountain to my sons land and graze his Olive terraces which he has post and railed. They have no extra feed when they are turned out there for approx 6 weeks.
Any advice or help would be great but please be gentle with me as I used to have an Arabian for twenty odd years in England but appreciate that things have moved on since then.


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## meleeka (26 August 2018)

Can you muzzle when on grazing? 
Do donkeys get Cushings?

I think excercise is important to prevent laminitis so could you make a track for her?


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## hollyandivy123 (26 August 2018)

sorry to here about the latest bout, one thing which is used here to allow a laminitic prone horse/pony out more in a paddock is a muzzle.
http://www.tackandturnout.co.uk/Dinky-Classic-Grazing-Muzzle

it will allow her out time and some grazing, the taller bits can fit through the whole, i am hoping someone on the forum has used one on a donkey and can suggest a better size to fit.  but if you look on the internet quite a few people use them on donkeys, just have to fit to the face.


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## Pearlsasinger (26 August 2018)

I have no personal experience of keeping donkeys but do know someone who has applied to the Donkey Sanctuary to foster from them.  They say that their donkeys should be fed solely on straw but that might be because most of the UK grass is 'lusher' than that available in Spain.


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## JillA (26 August 2018)

Donkeyslave you could do worse than discuss your animals with the people at The Laminitis Site - they are very experienced, knowledgeable and helpful. One of the things they might tell you is pay particular attention to how their feet are trimmed. 
http://www.thelaminitissite.org/

Pete Ramey in his recent clinic advised people to trim shorter, to avoid peripheral loading which stresses the laminae. He is another source of information for you. My own horse has self trimmed really short on the hard ground here in the UK this summer and his soles have never been stronger, so they support the column of bone and don't leave it all to the laminae
http://www.hoofrehab.com/ (Pete Ramey's website)


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## Donkeyslave (26 August 2018)

Thanks so much for your advice. I will certainly check out the Laminitis Site as I am sure they will be able to help. My farrier is English and registered (I'm so lucky as most neighbours trim their own but I won't let them near my donks!) He is also open to new ideas. The short trimming sounds interesting and as the farrier is due in a couple of weeks I'll email him these links. Thanks everyone for your kind input as it can be difficult being surrounded by lovely Spanish neighbours who only really value their horses and think I'm bonkers keeping donkeys as they are viewed by many as outdated agricultural machines here.
I will walk them more with my dogs now that it's getting cooler in the evenings as I do take on board that they do need exercise for mind and body and my neighbours  love to see them. I have also contacted El Refugio del Burrito which is the Spanish branch of the Donkey Sanctuary and I am going to visit them in a few weeks.


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## Donkeyslave (26 August 2018)

Oh, yes. Donkeys do get Cushings and I'll look into the grazing muzzle.


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## maisie06 (26 August 2018)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			I do think some people make horse keeping a lot more difficult than it needs to be. I've no problem with them doing that, as long as their horse is basically ok with whatever routine and management system they use. 

My viewpoint is: If people want to worry unduly about laminitis, let them. But I dont. Two of my horses are "at risk" you might say. One which had laminitis with a previous owner and one which a few years ago developed a cresty neck that never goes away even when lean, so IMO a possible metabolic problem. The laminitis case was due purely to suddenly over feeding and lack of work. The cresty neck developed on a horse which had always been fairly slim.

Due to a yard move these two, along with my others, are on decent grazing. Not rye grass, a mix of grass and weeds but a decent amount. It doesn't remotely resemble a starvation paddock. Every summer they get fat. Every winter they slim down. They are worked to a level that suits me, not because I feel I *have* to ride due to their weight. Winter is hard enough work, I'm not interested in stabling in summer too. I detest muzzles. I have no problem if others want to use them but I won't. IME the horse is miserable and the muzzles rub or come off. Soaked hay (more than about half hour) absolutely stinks and the water it comes out of looks disgusting. No, I won't feed that to my horses. Apart from anything else, I have better things to do than lug heavy dripping hay nets around. Anything with dust problems has haylage. 

Guess what? My horse keeping routine is easily manageable by me, doesn't give me a headache or create unnecessary work and none of my horses has ever died from it. None has ever had laminitis with me. They are all happy and living a fairly natural life. IMO life is too short for all the worrying and faffing that goes on with a lot of horse owners. 

If one of mine ever develops laminitis for no apparent reason (getting into the feed bin, illness, stress etc), I will consider it a symptom of serious metabolic problems and PTS in the animals best interests. Rather than months of painful laminitis recovery followed by a life of muzzles, manky soaked hay and restricted grazing for the poor horse, with riding suddenly becoming a chore that *must* be done.
		
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What a refreshing post. My thoughts exactly....and letting them slim down in winter is something many owners don't/won't do, and I think this is the key to success as it's how the equine metabolic system has evolved and it's doing as nature intended.


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## Mule (26 August 2018)

I know nitrogen fertiliser can be disastrous for horses prone to laminitis. The hot drought conditions this summer were damaging too.

 A family member has one with chronic laminitis. She has EMS. Keeping her on a sand arena with hay has worked out best for her for the last month.

I disagree with the idea that laminitics should be euthanised. Proper foot care and weight management are paramount.The horse I referred to is not in pain, she's actually marching around the place looking perky. 

Of course one has to be willing to manage the horse carefully. Careless owners who won't follow vet advise shouldn't let a horse suffer. 

Also the types who won't commit to keeping the horses weight down because they think they are being cruel shouldn't be in charge of high risk horses, imo.


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## Donkeyslave (26 August 2018)

I must admit that Sugar and Spice talks common sense which is always good news. I agree with mule's thoughts on euthanasia as this should be dependent on the individual equine, their quality of life and the resources of the owner. We owned a Shetland from 2 yrs old until he died at 34yrs. He developed laminitis when he was older but it was managed with bute and diet in those days. He only had two attacks and had a very happy, busy life until he developed kidney problems and was pts. He is still much missed.
I will try the grazing muzzle but must admit that I worry that she will get very frustrated and miserable wearing one. What experiences have others had with these and has anyone fed magnesium oxide as an additive for laminitis?


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## Mule (26 August 2018)

Donkeyslave said:



			I must admit that Sugar and Spice talks common sense which is always good news. I agree with mule's thoughts on euthanasia as this should be dependent on the individual equine, their quality of life and the resources of the owner. We owned a Shetland from 2 yrs old until he died at 34yrs. He developed laminitis when he was older but it was managed with bute and diet in those days. He only had two attacks and had a very happy, busy life until he developed kidney problems and was pts. He is still much missed.
I will try the grazing muzzle but must admit that I worry that she will get very frustrated and miserable wearing one. What experiences have others had with these and has anyone fed magnesium oxide as an additive for laminitis?
		
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I tried a muzzle for a mare who didn't have laminitis, she was just a bit fat. She removed it in about 5 minutes. But she was a proper escape artist so I wouldn't go by that.

I got advice from a vet recently about keeping grass low. I don't know if this applies to your situation but, if you have another horse that isn't overweight you can get them to graze down a paddock so it's suitable for the laminitic prone animal to graze.


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## Donkeyslave (26 August 2018)

I don't have any horses only another donkey gelding. They are inseparable ,must be able to touch, otherwise they get very stressed. This also worries me as they are always grooming each other and "waffling" each others faces with their very soft lips. I'm worried about their mental well being if they can't feel each other like this. I guess its all trial and error for the individual.


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## DirectorFury (26 August 2018)

Donkeyslave said:



			What experiences have others had with these and has anyone fed magnesium oxide as an additive for laminitis?
		
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My mare has EMS and I feed mag ox and cinnamon at a high dose - about double and a half what is recommended on the Pro Earth site. Within 2-3 weeks the fat pads above her eyes (that I could not get rid of) had disappeared. She's still on it now and hasn't gone footy on grass this year which is a surprise! She actually dropped a lot of weight last winter (BCS 2/5) and I ended up taking her off the mag until she'd put a bit of weight back on as I wasn't sure if it was something to do with that.


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## DD (26 August 2018)

I never had  a problem in the past with ponies getting fat in summer then loosing the weight in the winter. I think its leaving them fat all year round which causes the problems. people over rug and over feed in the winter often these days.


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