# Would love to pin, prod, electrocute, force etc. Cesar Milan



## Lunchbox legend (11 March 2015)

I put the Dog Whisperer on so Fidget could watch "doggies on TV" while I do something else. 

This man is AWFUL!! HIDEOUS way to go about things!!!  Has he made the dog he's tormenting right now 'calm'? Or has the poor girl started to *shut down*?  She's so 'calm' she's panting, licking her lips and nose, and fidgeting   .   As soon as she's let go, she walks away, tail down. Yeah, really 'calm' dog... Can't bear his techniques  .

I'd like to prod him with a broom, pin him, put electric collars on him, force things he's scared of right into his face, prevent him escaping from any of it.  Poor, poor dogs  .


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## {97702} (11 March 2015)

I think most sensible people feel the same way about CM


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## california dreaming (11 March 2015)

He is a total disgrace to dog training.  He seems to have hood winked a whole generation and nation.


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## Fools Motto (11 March 2015)

Some like him, some don't. Much the same about most things.


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## Lunchbox legend (11 March 2015)

california dreaming said:



			He is a total disgrace to dog training.  He seems to have hood winked a whole generation and nation.
		
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The only reason I can think of for his 'success' is that he's been involved with dogs of Hollywood stars and he's got a decent PR thing going on.  I truly think he's done more damage than good.

I'm one of those who hide his books when I go into book shops or pet shops that sell them


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## SpringArising (11 March 2015)

I think he's a bit like the Pat & Linda of the dog world. Some love him and some hate him. I personally agree with a lot of what he says. He does bring up some very good and valid points, especially about how we need to be in the moment around our dogs (and generally, all our animals) and how we really shouldn't make a big deal about anything. 

I would personally rather see someone handle a dog in the way that Cesar does, than see someone pussyfoot around with treats and make the original problem worse and transfer their own anxiety onto the dog. 

I haven't watched him for a couple of years, but my thoughts are based on what I have seen.


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## Alec Swan (11 March 2015)

It's a curious thing that many who have experience of the exceedingly ill mannered,  and those dogs which are truly dangerous,  those that is who have done such work,  rather than viewed others via a screen,  actually consider that he's been a shining light,  and one for those with the eyes and the power of reason,  and to see! 

I suspect that arm-chair dog trainers are as arm-chair riders,  and mostly unable to demonstrate their abilities.

Alec.


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## Teaselmeg (11 March 2015)

california dreaming said:



			He is a total disgrace to dog training.  He seems to have hood winked a whole generation and nation.
		
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100% this ^^^

Cesar Millan is a TV personality who abuses dogs in the name of 'entertainment' and his bank balance.


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## Clodagh (11 March 2015)

I think he is pretty good, actually. Oops!


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## Cinnamontoast (11 March 2015)

I quite like him, actually. I'd never use a prong collar or push like he did when he was bitten, but he rehabilitates dogs. The pack thing would have been amazing for Zak. We restarted our original two using some of CM's ideas: best behaved dogs ever and not at all worried.


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## Booboos (11 March 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			It's a curious thing that many who have experience of the exceedingly ill mannered,  and those dogs which are truly dangerous,  those that is who have done such work,  rather than viewed others via a screen,  actually consider that he's been a shining light,  and one for those with the eyes and the power of reason,  and to see! 

I suspect that arm-chair dog trainers are as arm-chair riders,  and mostly unable to demonstrate their abilities.

Alec.
		
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Purely on a factual basis this is completely wrong. Here is a long list of associations of dog trainers, welfare associations and veterinary societies that condemn his methods:
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/press-statement.php

Surely some of them can claim some practical experience in dealing with dogs?


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## Sandstone1 (11 March 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			It's a curious thing that many who have experience of the exceedingly ill mannered,  and those dogs which are truly dangerous,  those that is who have done such work,  rather than viewed others via a screen,  actually consider that he's been a shining light,  and one for those with the eyes and the power of reason,  and to see! 

I suspect that arm-chair dog trainers are as arm-chair riders,  and mostly unable to demonstrate their abilities.

Alec.
		
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What a complete load of rubbish.


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## Alec Swan (11 March 2015)

Booboos said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/press-statement.php

Surely some of them can claim some practical experience in dealing with dogs?
		
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You'd think so,  wouldn't you?  

There's a world of difference between those who make 'claims',  and those who 'demonstrate' their abilities.  

Alec.


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## california dreaming (11 March 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			You'd think so,  wouldn't you?  

There's a world of difference between those who make 'claims',  and those who 'demonstrate' their abilities.  

Alec.
		
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  Why do you assume that everyone who disagrees with this mans out-dated and often inhumane methods are "arm chair" trainers? how incredibly patronising, arrogant and short sited.  Spiked/pronged collars, electric shock collars, scruffing etc have no place in modern day dog training.  The dogs this man "trains" are, for the most part, normal, unruly, pet dogs that one meets on a day to day basis.  He holds no "magic powers" when it comes to aggressive dogs.  His advice to pet owners is out-dated at best and dangerous at worst.


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## twiggy2 (11 March 2015)

I think he speaks some sense, dogs need excersise, the need to be physically satisfied before then can emotionally focus-that I agree with. that they need to work through fear I agree with in most instances, that they can learn from dogs that are calm and confident i agree with, I agree that dogs learn when in a relaxed state of mind but I do not always see a relaxed dog when he claims there is one. there are other things I do not like in his methods too but I honestly think some of the tools he uses have a place in extreme cases for the right dog and used with caution.
I don't like how confrontational he can be, I don't like how he pushes dogs into becoming reactive when they are clearly trying to avoid being so, I don't like that people can put themselves at serious risk by following his methods and I don't like the fact that he leads people to believe dogs are fixed/cured when their behaviour has been extreme and dangerous.
I do train dogs/owners/handlers and most trainers do not like him at all but I tend to be with dog training as I am with training horses, everyone you watch work with these animals can teach you something even if it is how NOT to do something. Also that there are no hard and fast rules.


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## Dobiegirl (11 March 2015)

I much prefer CM to some of the behaviourists out there, a lot of what he says is just basic common sense and what a lot of dog savvy people have done for years. I watched him with the rottie today and thought he handled the situation very well as he also did with the deaf Am Bulldog.

My last  foster dog had been in his new home for about a fortnight when his new owners said they were having problems walking him as he was being dog aggressive, he had lived in my home with my 3 dogs including my male Dobermann since early December and had met numerous dogs belonging to my friends without any problems. So a friend and I with her foster dog (male) who he had never met travelled an hour to meet up. Apart from pulling on his lead with his new owners which we rectified he was an absolute saint, it was a handling issue with the owners who realised their constant jabbing on his lead was just revving him up, so everything is fine and the new owners are very happy. They can now cancel the behaviourist recommended by their vet with umpteen letters behind his name and was going to charge them £200 for 2 hours. He was also going to bring a stooge dog like we did but unlike us his was a stuffed dog, when I was told this I couldnt stop laughing and could only imagine the reaction from my foster dog would have been to cock his leg on it.

So compared to that behaviourist I dont think CM is that bad.


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## MurphysMinder (12 March 2015)

I saw him live when he visited the UK a couple of years ago, having never seen the tv programmes, and thought he talked a lot of sense, particularly with regard to dogs needing exercise.  I think electric, pinch collars etc do have their place, but only when used by experienced trainers.  What does concern me is the average pet owner trying out his methods such as pinning.
I went to the Rolex 3DE last year in Kentucky, and nearly every dog walking round had a prong or in some cases an electric collar on.  None of these dogs looked cowed or unhappy,  in contrast they were friendly , well behaved dogs enjoying their day out which says something I think.


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## Dobiegirl (12 March 2015)

I have never pinned a dog but whats really interesting is that its exactly what my  male Dobermann does to other dogs when they want to fight him, he grabs them and pins them until they are calm and releases the dog and its like oh you misread that I really want to be your best buddy. There is never a mark on the other dog and I suppose this is also what CM is trying to replicate.


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## deb_l222 (12 March 2015)

Personally I've got a lot of time for the fella as I think the majority of his techniques / methods are grounded in plain old common sense (as dobiegirl has said).  What he advocates is a consistent and fair approach to dog handling and training, without the need to be shouty and vocal - most of his interactions are really subtle.

With truly aggressive dogs (I'm talking people aggressive here) you either have to step up, step out or put the dog to sleep.  He steps up every time, which is not something every trainer / behaviourist would be prepared to do.  His use of tools (brooms, tennis racket or in my case the floor mop) saved my bacon several times in the early days with one of my 'bad lads'.  It isn't about prodding them with said tool to get a reaction, it's about putting an inanimate object between yourself and the gnashing teeth to protect yourself but still get the job done.

Using other dogs is also something he excels at (power of the pack and all that malarkey).........  We've got a youngster in rescue at the moment (18 months).  Never been on a lead, never walked on grass, never been out of the back yard.  First walk on Sunday was a nightmare, to say the least.  Spinning on the lead, scooting on his belly on the grass (what is this green soft stuff lol) but he's gone out every day since, with a confident 'normal' dog and he's a different chap already.  If he was on his own, I suspect nothing would have changed.

I agree, in the wrong hands, some of his techniques could get owners in trouble if they're not reading the situation (or the dog) correctly and the 'pinning' example is one of those times but for the most part his guidance to owners is usually very simple and all that's required are small changes to their routine.


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## milo'n'molly (12 March 2015)

I don't particularly like all his training and find some bits uncomfortable to watch and I would never use his training methods with my dog. I spent a lot of time training and socialising my dog and I would not be comfortable being so ruthless (for want of a better word)
I also don't always see a calm contented dog when he claims that that's what he has created.

However, he does talk sense in regards to dogs needing exercise and boundaries but who am I to judge when dealing with problem dogs? I put a lot of effort into making my dog as well rounded as possible but would not be happy dealing with many of the dogs he has turned around.


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## Scarlett (12 March 2015)

deb_l222 said:



			Personally I've got a lot of time for the fella as I think the majority of his techniques / methods are grounded in plain old common sense (as dobiegirl has said).  What he advocates is a consistent and fair approach to dog handling and training, without the need to be shouty and vocal - most of his interactions are really subtle.

With truly aggressive dogs (I'm talking people aggressive here) you either have to step up, step out or put the dog to sleep.  He steps up every time, which is not something every trainer / behaviourist would be prepared to do.  His use of tools (brooms, tennis racket or in my case the floor mop) saved my bacon several times in the early days with one of my 'bad lads'.  It isn't about prodding them with said tool to get a reaction, it's about putting an inanimate object between yourself and the gnashing teeth to protect yourself but still get the job done.

Using other dogs is also something he excels at (power of the pack and all that malarkey).........  We've got a youngster in rescue at the moment (18 months).  Never been on a lead, never walked on grass, never been out of the back yard.  First walk on Sunday was a nightmare, to say the least.  Spinning on the lead, scooting on his belly on the grass (what is this green soft stuff lol) but he's gone out every day since, with a confident 'normal' dog and he's a different chap already.  If he was on his own, I suspect nothing would have changed.

I agree, in the wrong hands, some of his techniques could get owners in trouble if they're not reading the situation (or the dog) correctly and the 'pinning' example is one of those times but for the most part his guidance to owners is usually very simple and all that's required are small changes to their routine.
		
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This....

We got a rescue 7 month old Staff x in Dec. He was terrified of horses to the point of lunging at them aggressively. After doing some training on the lead around the horses we attached him to our older dog who is brilliant with horses, pup follows older dogs lead and can now be left loose on the yard with none of the previous behaviour whilst attached to Digby. He's grown so much more confident doing this and the experience has been positive IMO.. We saw it on one of CM's programs when he was dealing with another dog aggressive dog. 

I think anything can be twisted to look bad and I agree that in the wrong hands or done badly it can cause damage but so can ANY training regime. I like the basics of CM's training, it mirrors a lot of what we did with our older dog Digby when he was younger without knowing it was a 'system' iykwim, and he's a dog who we can and do take everywhere with us because he is so well behaved and we are seeing the same results with the pup.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (12 March 2015)

I'm old enough, as others on here no doubt are, to remember Barbara Woodhouse and her evangelistic zeal for a choke chain for every dog (and used harshly at that); and her slavish advocation of a pelham for EVERY horse - irrespective of any other factors.

Some loved her, most hated her.

Seems to me that in every generation and age, there is always someone who will rise up and think they're wonderful, and a lot of other people will agree and kiss their b@cksides and rush to do the same; and others will see through their inflated ego's and bank balances...........


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## ester (12 March 2015)

I do like his emphasis on exercise. Even more so in the U.S. it seems with large back yards few dogs get walked.


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## SpringArising (12 March 2015)

ester said:



			I do like his emphasis on exercise.
		
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Me too. The amount of people who ask why their dogs are so hyper, or complain that their dogs are 'untrainable', whilst simultaneously never walking the poor things, is mind-blowing.


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## splashgirl45 (12 March 2015)

I am another one who thinks he talks a lot of sense, and I agree with most of what he does.  I certainly wouldn't want to confront some of those dogs!!!!!


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## fankino04 (12 March 2015)

Another 1 who likes him I'm afraid, whilst I agree with positive reinforcement methods I think dogs like children need to be reprimanded for bad behaviour too ( that doesn't mean beating them)
I would rather employ someone sensible who believes a dog should do as you say than 1 of the fluffy behaviorists out there who will have you dishing out treats 2 months in just for the dog sitting when he was asked.
I recently went to see a German Shepherd for a rescue and the owner had been using a behaviourist for 2 months, there was an initial £90 consultation then a further £35 per week for a weekly session and she is also their dog walker at a cost of £12 per day 5 days a week. The issue with the dog was it attacks the resident dog yet in these 2 months she has not tried to socialise the dog, hasn't trained the owner on how to say no when the dog paws at her for attention etc.
I took my boy along as a stooge and after 10 minutes walking they were best friends although she was clearly nervous not aggressive at first so I have no idea why this behaviourist is getting paid as much as she is but would rather someone like CM be working with the dog as they identify the problem and get on with it.


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## Laafet (12 March 2015)

I like some aspects of his work in the same way I like some aspects of Monty Robert's work, but I do not whole heartedly support him. From the programmes I have seen most of the problem dogs are not really a problem, it is the owners, whether they don't exercise enough or are too soft or put the dog in a position where the poor thing cannot do right. As for the use of restraints, an electric collar turned around my rescue dog, he had been allowed to develop a horrendous chase drive, that meant I could rarely let him off the lead, all the usual methods did not work, once the red mist descended that was it, he'd go, no matter what was in his way. He'd kill wildlife, people pet's, nearly got run over many a time. A friend leant me her collar that she had used on her greyhound, I got advice on how to use it and was very strict on myself about its use. It took a few weeks and turned him around, I can stop him if he does charge off, but in all fairness he rarely does now, I don't have the collar any more and have not used it for 3 years or so but it clearly did a job that I was failing to manage with training alone. He is happy, can play on the racecourse in a massive open space and never runs off. Surely those few weeks of alternative training were better than the next three years on a lead? With horses I always look for all the solutions to a problem, not just those that are considered 'the way to do it'.


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## Mister Ted (12 March 2015)

Have taken up Ceasers tips on training my confirmed cat hater terrier to get on with my cat.After months of trying every suggested method from many dog books with his method the problem was sorted in a few weeks and they get on great even sleeping in the same basket. His ways make sense and a lot of it is common sense.Of course my dog was trembling but not because I was causing him any physical pain,his mind was struggling to overcome what was to him natural which was to chase the cat.To snap out of that mode and change the mind set is what is required and Ceaser has the vast experience in working dogs to know how their mind works.
Its normally red zone dogs that nobody can control or wants due to ignorant owners that he rehabilitates.


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## Alec Swan (13 March 2015)

Booboos said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/press-statement.php

&#8230;&#8230;..
		
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I'm staggered at the number of self appointed organisations which,  none (that I can see) being qualified through tried and tested approaches,  having either the knowledge or the ability which would be able to deal with the higher end of difficult or dangerous dogs.  Being a qualified Vet doesn't give anyone an automatic passage to understand the mind of any animal,  be it a horse,  a dog or a sheep!  There will be the odd competent Vet who can handle a dog,  but as with Equine Vets,  the management of the animal concerned simply isn't their field of expertise.  

The established animal charities?  In the main,  setting oneself up as a registered charity,  with all the relevant tax relief is more focused upon the self promotion of the charity than the genuine care of their charges.  Canine behaviourists and those who would lecture those who train dogs,  from an apparent pulpit,  have been discredited and simply put,  whilst working with the already compliant pooch they'll be fine,  but when attempting to work with the dog which has entrenched views,  fail.  For those who work with any 'difficult' animal,  placing that animal in a position of discomfort,  be it a horse or a dog,  and applying a system whereby the animal once it understands that compliance brings about a release,  are those who demonstrate their abilities.  Positive reinforcement will encourage the behaviour be it desirable,  or not.  Compliance with our wishes is only ever achieved when an animal accepts and acknowledges our leadership.

The principles of 'Pressure and Release' used by the likes of Monty Roberts and Gary Witheford,  to mention only two,  are exactly the same principles as those used by Milan.  Retrospective punishment doesn't train any animal,  but cause and effect does.  Pain in itself only serves to teach any animal that we are to be feared.  Discomfort,  when an animal grasps the fact that it's brought it upon itself,  does.  Pain when applied can all so often exaggerate the animals undesired behaviour.  

I have never used spiked collars or any tool which gives an animal an electric shock.  I don't consider that I'm qualified to use such tools.

Back to the subject of this thread;  We have to bear in mind that Milan generally steps in with dogs which for a variety of reasons have never learned that they are the servants of man,  rather than the other way around.  So many of these dogs are of breeds which are not generally given to any form of 'fitting in' with their owners,  and the owners,  because they seem to know better than the trainers who through experience tend to avoid such breeds,  haven't the common sense to wonder if their choice of breed has been ideal.  Experience of breeds which are known to be intractable,  wooden or just plain selfish,  is what has the experienced trainers avoiding them.  Those other dogs which he demonstrates with,  are those who through no apparent early input,  have ever been given direction and so they make their own way in life,  and it's that which brings them in to conflict with man.

I very much doubt that you and I will ever reach agreement,  and though I'll accept for the tyro,  the arguments of those who you seem to support,  will undoubtably appear to be logical and very attractive,  they are all based,  or so it seems to me,  upon the fact that dogs have the very same power of reason as would a human,  and the simple fact is that they don't.

Alec.


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## Shady (13 March 2015)

nicely said Alec, i am a huge supporter of his work which is largely based on common sense,  i have over the years helped many rescue dogs using his methods ,my own dog in particular , a massive weimaraner with guarding tendencies and a dominance problem no longer owns my house or those who visit me and because he comes from a totally working dog line he was terrible when we brought 2 new kittens into the house, 1 week later using CM's methods , the kittens were sleeping with him and he is amazing with cats now, i have a lot of respect for the man.


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## Alec Swan (13 March 2015)

Lunchbox legend said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. has the poor girl started to *shut down*?  She's so 'calm' she's panting, licking her lips and nose, and fidgeting   .  &#8230;&#8230;..
		
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It may be that you've missed the point.  I haven't seen the piece of film concerned,  but you've describe,  very well,  the dog which has decided that 'fight' is going to achieve nothing,  but that 'acceptance' of the human will,  will.  Those dogs which challenge and reject the demands of their handler,  simply have to learn to 'obey'.  Do your dogs obey you?  If they didn't,  how would you assert your dominance?  

Before you take issue with the word 'dominance',  consider that all dogs which are compliant and obedient,  are dominated over.  Negotiation with dogs which challenge those who would be their owners doesn't work,  it never has and it never will.

Going back to the question of how Milan enters in to a relationship with a dog,  bearing in mind that the animal has views of its own(!),  so the dog's system does,  as you accurately describe,  need 'shutting down'.  Once shut down has been achieved,  then upon those foundations so we build a relationship which doesn't just benefit man,  but importantly,  the dog too.

Alec.


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## twiggy2 (13 March 2015)

...


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## Lunchbox legend (13 March 2015)

I've been watching the replies to my comment and it's interesting.  He seems to be a 'marmite' man - either love him or hate him.

I'd have taken a different approach with the dog in the clip I saw.  Sure, it would have taken longer, but I do believe the results would also mean a better relationship between me and the dog.

I agree with some of the people on here who mention his view on exercise (I remember seeing a clip where he says 'exercise, discipline and affection' in that order i.e. lots more exercise than discipline and more discipline than affection).  I fully agree that far too many dogs don't get nearly enough exercise and socialisation, and just as many get no or the wrong kind of discipline and that addressing these things would be half the battle won.  I just think he falls back on his own techniques in situations where a more positive approach would work just as well or better.  I also think that too many people use his techniques wrongly.  No amount of "don't try this at home" is going to change that.

Yes Alec, I do have dogs - well just the one permanent one at the moment.  I grew up with between 2-4 dogs (depending on who had died or joined us) and all of them were trained to competition standard.  At 12 years old I was winning places in competitions with my dog.  Later dogs were trained as gun dogs and some had agility training.  I've had dogs on and off for the last 40 years (some my own, some fosters, some friends and family dogs that I dogsat).

Nowadays I don't bother with anything competitive but my current dog had already learnt to sit and wait for his dinner/the 'ok' command at 3 months old.  At 4 months, he had learned to get out of his cage in the car and sit in his place to have his lead put on and look me in the eye waiting for the 'ok' command to get out of the car.  He's an energetic, cheeky little nutjob and people often comment on how well behaved he is.

Some of the foster dogs I've had would certainly had been pinned, jabbed, forced etc. by CM but they didn't get that with me.  They all learnt some manners and all went to homes (how much they learnt really depended on a whole bunch of things).  I did try CM's methods with one dog as I like to try things out and learn new things.  I really didn't like it and I think it made things worse.  Maybe his methods work for the most extreme situations but for most people/dogs/situations I'd still avoid him.


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## twiggy2 (13 March 2015)

personally I don't want my dogs to be dominated by me, I don't want them to fear which I equate with being dominated, I want my dogs to choose to be with me because I offer leadership, consistency (even if that is a consistent correction following a repeated action), they feel confident in my presence, I do believe that a dog needs guidance, correction and praise from a calm, focused leader.
dogs that do things because they are dominated or fearful can easily be pushed in to defensive aggression or just leaving if it is possible at the point they are pushed too far, my lurcher comes back when we are walking wherever we are walking-if we are in company she will run amongst all the legs till she finds me then go of again unless called close, if she feels threatened by another dog she comes close and puts myself between her and the other dog-she trusts in my leadership to control a situation-the one time she has reacted differently was when she obviously felt uncomfortable with a fishermans intentions, she stood across the front of my legs close enough she was touching me the whole time she was there i could feel the low growl vibrating through her, I have only had one dog who has not been protective and he is the dog that runs off, has been run over twice, lives in his own world and guess what he is the dog that dominating training methods were used on, he has never exhibited any loyalty to anyone and I believe that is because he trusts no-one-he is also the only rescue i have had but he arrived in our house at 5 weeks so I believe too early for his past to be relevant, he is now 16yrs old and still going he is an exceptionally complicated and unusual dog and whilst he has taught me not to try and dominate my dogs I still believe in short sharp reprimands when needed.
I don't want flat soulless, expressionless servants in my dogs or horses I want light and character to shine through in my animals but alongside that I want a willingness to please and be in my company. every animal is different and whilst the fundamentals may be the same the fine tuning is subject appropriate.

shutting an animal down puts it in a place it cannot learn-that is the idea of shut down an animal cannot be mentally scarred whilst in shut down the damage is done on the way there, eg a friends horse fell over in a trailer on the way to a training weekend, they were not aware of the severity of the event until they arrived at their location, they had felt a very brief 'something' during the journey-in fact what they had felt was the partition and horse falling over some 40 = minutes before arriving, when they opened the trailer they found the horse in 'shutdown' on her side with the partition on top of her, she remained in shut down whilst the partition was removed and vet was called by the time the vet arrived (15mins)  horse was stood in a stable eating hay she had bruising and minor grazes, not signs of shock-the owner was very worried about re loading the mare to go home so one of the ground work instructors did it for her and the horse walked straight on-the vet and the instructors believed animals cannot retain any memory of things that create or happen in true shut down if they did they would live in a permanent state of fear-shutdown is a natural automatic self defense system is what i have learnt from those I have trained with over the years and shutdown is dangerous as they can come out of it like a rocket.


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## Lunchbox legend (13 March 2015)

Twiggy2, I think you've hit the nail on the head.  If I ever did something to cause an animal to shut down, I'd be mortified.  The guilt would stay with me forever.


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## lastchancer (13 March 2015)

This is very interesting, particularly the comparisons between CM and some of the more dramatic training employed by Parelli and Monty. It's true that these big name trainers work with, and without doubt succeed with animals that might otherwise face humane destruction. Perhaps the question is whether it's justifiable to employ such techniques in these challenging situations, or if pts would indeed be a kinder option? And if justifiable, is it responsible to promote such techniques to the general public, who often will not have the experience, understanding or timing to get it right?


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## california dreaming (13 March 2015)

I don't understand the comparisons made between CM and Parelli.  Parelli, as far as I know has never used spiked bridels or collars on horses.  He has never used, as far as I know electric shock treatment either, so to make comparisons is unrealistic.  If these methods truly worked in the long term, then every aggressive dog could be cured by simply putting a spiked collar on it and or shocking it.  It simply isn't possible to rehabilitate every dangerous dog, especially by using these methods.  Also, I reiterate and say that CM deals mostly with normal unruly pet dogs that one sees on a day to day basis.  He used spiked collars to teach walk to heal. Why would you do that unless you are a total incompetent.


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## blackcob (13 March 2015)

If the way to achieve a compliant and obedient dog is to shut it down with bullying, intimidation and fear then I hope I never achieve it. 

About the only thing I can praise Cesar for is his emphasis on exercise.


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## lastchancer (13 March 2015)

california dreaming said:



			I don't understand the comparisons made between CM and Parelli.  Parelli, as far as I know has never used spiked bridels or collars on horses.  He has never used, as far as I know electric shock treatment either, so to make comparisons is unrealistic.  If these methods truly worked in the long term, then every aggressive dog could be cured by simply putting a spiked collar on it and or shocking it.  It simply isn't possible to rehabilitate every dangerous dog, especially by using these methods.  Also, I reiterate and say that CM deals mostly with normal unruly pet dogs that one sees on a day to day basis.  He used spiked collars to teach walk to heal. Why would you do that unless you are a total incompetent.
		
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Parelli training ultimately aims to 'shut down' the mind of the horse so that it relies on the trainer for direction. A similar effect to 'pinning' I would have thought? I don't know much about CM in all honestly though. Parelli uses pressure halters, which can deliver severe pain and irreparable nerve damage, the Catwalk incident along with Lindas performance with the blind horse demonstrate that they are not above using harsh methods. 
The fact that these all these trainers are cashing in on some very harsh methods and dressing it up as horse/dog psychology is a glaring parallel imo. It is training based on domination and subjugation, and a sad degeneration from the methods used by traditional thinking trainers of both dogs and horses. 
I watched a complete unknown working with Collies today, it was an absolute pleasure to observe someone with genuine expertise train with reward and encouragement rather than coercion and bullying.


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## twiggy2 (13 March 2015)

lastchancer said:



			Parelli training ultimately aims to 'shut down' the mind of the horse so that it relies on the trainer for direction. A similar effect to 'pinning' I would have thought? I don't know much about CM in all honestly though. Parelli uses pressure halters, which can deliver severe pain and irreparable nerve damage, the Catwalk incident along with Lindas performance with the blind horse demonstrate that they are not above using harsh methods. 
The fact that these all these trainers are cashing in on some very harsh methods and dressing it up as horse/dog psychology is a glaring parallel imo. It is training based on domination and subjugation, and a sad degeneration from the methods used by traditional thinking trainers of both dogs and horses. 
I watched a complete unknown working with Collies today, it was an absolute pleasure to observe someone with genuine expertise train with reward and encouragement rather than coercion and bullying.
		
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an animal in true shut down cannot be directed, it has shut down.
I have have played at some of the parelli groundwork and for me it the idea was to open my horses mind to thought and having the confidence to try things without reprimand, if she did it wrong there was no reward when she finished and I would ask again in a slightly different way until my way of asking got the result I wanted-we both had to think and there was certainly no force involved, as for the halters anything tool used is only a harsh or soft as the hands operating it, I found it meant there was less force as the messages were less vague. just because there is a metal clip on the line you work with does not mean you HAVE to use it with force


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## SpringArising (13 March 2015)

What is this obsession with saying that Cesar is 'shutting down the minds' of dogs? 

Personally I'd rather see a dog with a shut-down mind (whatever that means) than one who is riddled with fear and anxiety, which has stemmed from uncertain handling. 

I think he has been a welcomed breath of fresh air TBH. I was getting quite fed up with watching people faffing around their dogs, dishing out a treat a minute in an attempt to get them to 'focus'.

He takes the bull by the horns and tackles things head on.


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## lastchancer (13 March 2015)

I'm not talking about benign training with groundwork & games, I'm talking about the more brutal stuff that Parelli (does) indulge in. 

However this thread is about Ceasar Milan, whom (as I have already said) I know little about. It seems he uses rather cruel techniques under some pretense of a higher understanding? My question is; are these harsh methods justified as a last resort to save an animal? I'm not convinced they are. It is a difficult line to draw though when faced with the choice of destroying or perhaps saving a loved pet. 
However if (like another poster stated earlier) CM really is promoting very harsh gadgets for general use on harmless dogs then he should be boycotted by all. Cruel, ignorant training is a big step backwards.


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## Alec Swan (14 March 2015)

lastchancer said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

However if (like another poster stated earlier) CM really is promoting very harsh gadgets for general use on harmless dogs then he should be boycotted by all. Cruel, ignorant training is a big step backwards.
		
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As you say 'IF'!  I've never seen Milan promote or propose any harsh tools or gadgets,  as I don't believe that he would consider them necessary,  his stated purpose always being (all that I've ever seen,  anyway),  that the handler asserts their authority,  without the use of 'implements' which could be considered harsh,  cruel or inappropriate.

Perhaps those who are levelling accusations that he is in fact promoting the use of 'gadgets',  could post the evidence on here,  and for consideration.  Without evidence,  accusations alone cannot be given any credence,  in my view.

Alec.


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## Mister Ted (14 March 2015)

I agree with Spring Arising.Personally I can only speak from experience with using some of his methods.After reading his books his knowledge on how the dogs mind works is huge and his methods  make complete sense to me.Dogs need a leader as they would in the wild.The pack are followers and want to be told what to do.The human can do this by becoming the leader and having a wonderful relationship with their dog by ensuring  key rules are followed.Excercise ,discipline,and affection.Exercise to burn excessive energy natural in the dog.Then you have a relaxed dog ready for any training,affection and praise then food. My rescue dog  knowing I am in control of his daily life  is a joy to be around.Will do what he can to please and always wants to do the right thing.After training him not to chase our cat using Ceasers method 100% sucessfully which did not involve cruelty, those complaining need to have a think about what they are saying.
His methods in rehabilitating red zone dogs or dogs which need an electric collar short term while training them not to attack poisonous snakes which could kill them are usually the that are highlighted because it seems cruel.Of course its not  pleasant but would you rather have a dead dog.His love of pitbulls is well known due to his insight and understanding of the breed and has many rehabilitated ones on his ranch.


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## Shady (14 March 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			As you say 'IF'!  I've never seen Milan promote or propose any harsh tools or gadgets,  as I don't believe that he would consider them necessary,  his stated purpose always being (all that I've ever seen,  anyway),  that the handler asserts their authority,  without the use of 'implements' which could be considered harsh,  cruel or inappropriate.

Perhaps those who are levelling accusations that he is in fact promoting the use of 'gadgets',  could post the evidence on here,  and for consideration.  Without evidence,  accusations alone cannot be given any credence,  in my view.

Alec.
		
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totally agree
 i have been watching him for years and have never seen him' promote 'the use of gadgets, far from it infact and i do not understand how you can confuse dominance with being a strong leader. if you look at the body language of the dogs that live with him, many of which are red zone cases they are not cowering from him in submission when he enters but are calm and relaxed ,the only time i have seen him use an electric collar is as Mister Ted says to teach Daddy not to go near snakes and it was used correctly and successfully.


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## twiggy2 (14 March 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Those dogs which challenge and reject the demands of their handler,  simply have to learn to 'obey'.  Do your dogs obey you?  If they didn't,  how would you assert your dominance?  

Going back to the question of how Milan enters in to a relationship with a dog,  bearing in mind that the animal has views of its own(!),  so the dog's system does,  as you accurately describe,  need 'shutting down'.  Once shut down has been achieved,  then upon those foundations so we build a relationship which doesn't just benefit man,  but importantly,  the dog too.

Alec.
		
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Springaraising my post was in response to this and the fact that CM does not want dogs minds shut down as they cannot learn in that state-they are beyond fear as shutdown happens to protect the animals metal wellbeing. I am not against CM or my understanding of most of what he does, as this thread shows it is open to interpretation and we all see something different-I dont like how confrontational he sometimes is but his knowledge is huge and he works with dogs most of us choose not to, however sometimes I do feel he is after a quick fix for the camera an I dontfeel that is in the dogs best interest.


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## Alec Swan (14 March 2015)

The act of 'Shutting down' a dog's thought processes is the act of returning to the simple basics of early training.  That cannot be achieved with a dog which refuses to accept discipline.  With those who have the required experience with horses,  they will advise that there is a return to the basics,  and correctly so.  Whilst the relationship between man and dog and man and horse,  are in essence the same,  so are the basics.  It's to do with gaining the respect and compliance of the animal.

'Shutting down' is such an emotive term,  and one which is rarely understood.  It speaks of 'brain-washing',  which in part it is,  and the act of placing a dog,  once again in a position where they have no choice but to accept,  is the first step to rebuilding their trust in their handlers,  handlers incidentally who are never their previous owners!  It's a case,  if you like,  of a black-board rubber being applied,  and the dog doubting its own,  and possibly justified,  concepts of the human.  Once there is a clean slate,  so it's the place of the competent trainer to start again,  and build a position of trust,  and mutual effect.  Pain doesn't train dogs,  and it's that simple.

As Shady so correctly says, &#8230;&#8230;.. 'if you look at the body language of the dogs that live with him, many of which are red zone cases they are not cowering from him in submission when he enters but are calm and relaxed' &#8230;&#8230;.. They've learned,  and are happy to live with,  their pack leader.

Once a dog,  those with NO previous intention of acceptance,  reaches the stage in regression where they wonder what's coming next,  so the path forward,  is relatively simple.  THAT is the time to offer support,  acceptance and encouragement,  and that is also the time when the dog starts to understand what's required of it.  Again,  Milan demonstrates that for those who can see.

The worst cases of those dogs which are being viewed,  without the timely input of those who handle as Milan does,  are heading for an early demise,  and I'll admit that I would worry for those who not truly understanding of the methods displayed,  will attempt to copy,  and actually make matters far worse.  With the point that 'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing',  so those who are perhaps ill-equipped,  and who would emulate Milan,  failure or a worsening of a situation,  is all but assured.

Alec.


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## Teaselmeg (14 March 2015)

CM regularly used prong collars and shock collars and 'forgets' to mention them.  In one of his early episodes, there is a woman who wants her dog to like her cat, so the cat is in a crate and the dog is brought in.  The dog has a dark hairy coat, but if you look closely he is wearing a shock collar and CM has the control in his hand. Every time he zaps the dog he yelps and eventually the dog redirects and bites the owner - great training !  

In the infamous Shadow episode ( husky mix that shreds his new sweater) the dog starts out with him lead popping him on a prong collar, which makes the dog worse and then you suddenly see the dog with one of his cheesewire slip leads on instead.  Shadow was subsequently returned to the rescue as despite CM 'working' with the dog to point where the dog was collapsed on the ground and wet himself, he did not help the dog, in fact made it worse. There was also a video taken of his people winding the dog up before filming to make him worse for the cameras.  The dog was rehomed to someone using reward based methods and is doing very well.

He may of started out with a decent knowledge of dogs, but he has sold his soul for fame and money.  His programmes are banned in several countries and recently he arrived in Germany to do his show and had to pass their basic dog behaviour test to be allowed to do his show - he failed it.  

Cowering, lip licking, ears flat back, head turning away are worldwide well known signs that a dog is stressed or fearful, not 'calm submissive'. Dog training and rehabilitation should be about teaching what you want the dog to do, not just reprimanding the dog every time it gets it( in your opinion) wrong, how often do you see him praise the dog for getting it right !


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## SpringArising (14 March 2015)

Teaselmeg said:



			Cowering, lip licking, ears flat back, head turning away are worldwide well known signs that a dog is stressed or fearful, not 'calm submissive'. Dog training and rehabilitation should be about teaching what you want the dog to do, not just reprimanding the dog every time it gets it( in your opinion) wrong, how often do you see him praise the dog for getting it right !
		
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Praise for a dog is different from praise for a child. Dogs don't need sweets and cuddles to know they've done right. They need to not feel anxious, stressed or wound-up - that for a dog is more than enough. I'm not disputing that Cesar does everything perfectly; everyone makes mistakes or has days where nothing seems to go right (even dog trainers who use completely different methods). But as I said before, I have respect for a lot of the things he says and teaches. 

How different is a prong collar to a whip? Or a pair of spurs? As we hear often on here; 'a gadget is only as harsh as the hands that are using it', and I have never watched Cesar working in a way that makes me uncomfortable. 

What does make me uncomfortable and mildly irritated, though, is watching a nervous-wreck of a dog constantly looking to their owner for praise and reward. Treat or praise a dog for that needy behaviour, and it's a vicious cycle.


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## Teaselmeg (14 March 2015)

Not sure where I said treat your dog like a child ?  

Reward based training is not 'cookie pushing' which is what most people who have not looked into it properly think it is. It is about using a method that encourages the dog to learn in a stress free way, that it can understand what is required of it, without bullying it into complying.  I hate seeing people yank their dog to make it sit and then nothing, no praise, no reward. If one person gave you £1 pound every time you sat down and the other person pulled on your collar until you sat down - which method would make you more likely to repeat the behaviour ? If you use treats/toys/praise to reward, it does not mean you have to walk around with biscuits in your pocket for the rest of your life, when the behaviour is well trained, just the occasional praise/reward is all it needs, if at all.


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## SpringArising (14 March 2015)

Teaselmeg said:



			If you use treats/toys/praise to reward, it does not mean you have to walk around with biscuits in your pocket for the rest of your life, when the behaviour is well trained, just the occasional praise/reward is all it needs, if at all.
		
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I agree with this part and I have used treats before on many occasions (and will continue to do so!). But the thing is, Cesar isn't just training the bog-standard dog to sit or rollover. 

He's usually trying to completely change the way a dog behaves or thinks. A lot of the dogs he deals with are aggressive/fearful, and treats don't have a place for those types of dogs when they're still displaying that anxious mindset. Those types of dogs (and any animal, really) NEED a leader, and need to be told what to do. That is a comfort to them, not a threat.


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## Dobiegirl (14 March 2015)

A very over used phrase dogs shutting down, if you want to see a dog shut down go and look at some of the long term residents in rescue(usually Staffies who dont do well in kennels). These dogs will be sat at the back of the kennel with a blank look on their face, have no interest in people., other dogs or food. 

Some of the dogs that Cm deals with are not the sort of dogs anyone on here has dealt with apart from one I know, from what Ive seen of him he has shown great restraint and patience, the dogs are not fixed but are on the right road with guidance to the owners who are obviously given homework to do. The really bad ones are taken back to his centre and get lots of one to one, one dog even after going back to him was not returned to the owner but he found another dog for them which was much more suitable. I must say I love his pitbull Daddy and all his dogs look a really happy balanced pack of dogs which is no mean feat of training.


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## Alec Swan (14 March 2015)

Teaselmeg said:



			..

Cowering, lip licking, ears flat back, head turning away are worldwide well known signs that a dog is stressed or fearful, not 'calm submissive'. .. !
		
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When a horse displays similar behaviour,  and in the opinions of all who work with difficult horses,  then the horse is sending out messages of offered compliance,  are these people also,  in your opinion and others worldwide 'well known' and wrong?  If you still consider that you're right,  then you swim against the tide of worldwide opinion and belief.

Alec.


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## Mister Ted (14 March 2015)

Dogs dont need titbits as reward.The praise coming from your voice is their reward knowing they are doing the right thing.Try it they are perfectly happy with this and a lot less confusing for them.


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## Clodagh (14 March 2015)

SpringArising said:



			I agree with this part and I have used treats before on many occasions (and will continue to do so!). But the thing is, Cesar isn't just training the bog-standard dog to sit or rollover. 

He's usually trying to completely change the way a dog behaves or thinks. A lot of the dogs he deals with are aggressive/fearful, and treats don't have a place for those types of dogs when they're still displaying that anxious mindset. Those types of dogs (and any animal, really) NEED a leader, and need to be told what to do. That is a comfort to them, not a threat.
		
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I think you are spot on, but nowadays so many people think you should be the dogs friend, not its leader. Lots of people on here say the pack mentality is not right at all and dogs don't need us to be in charge. I completely agree with you that a dog needs a 'boss'.


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## gunnergundog (14 March 2015)

Teaselmeg said:



			Cowering, lip licking, ears flat back, head turning away are worldwide well known signs that a dog is stressed or fearful, not 'calm submissive'. Dog training and rehabilitation should be about teaching what you want the dog to do, not just reprimanding the dog every time it gets it( in your opinion) wrong, how often do you see him praise the dog for getting it right !
		
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Alec Swan said:



			If you still consider that you're right,  then you swim against the tide of worldwide opinion and belief.

Alec.
		
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If we maintain the focus on dogs, rather than switching to horses, then Teaselmeg voices a view expressed by many and as such most certainly does not swim against the tide of worldwide opinion and belief.  

For instance, a concise explanation is here:  http://en.turid-rugaas.no/calming-signals---the-art-of-survival.html

And no, the author is not an out and out academic and yes, the author has trained dogs of their own and competed with them. 
(Just trying to pre-empt....!) 

For the record, I think that behaviours can be interpreted in multiple ways, depending on the context/environment.


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## Teaselmeg (14 March 2015)

That is an excellent article Gunnergundog, thank you for posting it. 

Alec, I am sure we were discussing dog behaviour ?  I certainly was !


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## twiggy2 (14 March 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			When a horse displays similar behaviour,  and in the opinions of all who work with difficult horses,  then the horse is sending out messages of offered compliance,  are these people also,  in your opinion and others worldwide 'well known' and wrong?  If you still consider that you're right,  then you swim against the tide of worldwide opinion and belief.

Alec.
		
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so a horse that is cowering, with its head turned away ears and flat back is offering compliance? not in my world, lip licking and chewing in horses are indicators of relaxation and thinking so compliance? maybe, but the rest?


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## Sandstone1 (14 March 2015)

Horses and dogs have completely different body language. Also horses are prey animals and dogs are predators.
Bit worrying that anyone can think their body language is similar.


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## Alec Swan (14 March 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			so a horse that is cowering, with its head turned away ears and flat back is offering compliance? not in my world, lip licking and chewing in horses are indicators of relaxation and thinking so compliance? maybe, but the rest?
		
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Two totally separate displays and messages.  One is fear,  and the other acceptance.  Dogs also give off the very same signals.  Once the animal is at the stage of wishing to listen,  so that is the point where progress can be made and training can begin.  Attempting to train a dog which has no wish to comply with the trainers demands,  is pointless.

Training a dog,  which as a puppy,  learned the basic rules of following its owners wishes,  is generally a straightforward matter.  ALL of those dogs,  or those that I've seen and which are invariably the subjects of Milan's work,  have through either breed type and likely temperament or through ignorance,  or a combination of both,  never had the basic work done and have come to view humans as either an irrelevance,  or to be feared.  The principles of Milan's work are that the dog learns to respect the trainer,  and so to become compliant.  

The subjects which Milan works on are all invariably at the stage where the clock simply can't be turned back,  learning can't be undone,  and the only answer for them is to have a sudden change of their understanding put in place,  and from that point,  so the learning can begin.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (14 March 2015)

selinas spirit said:



			Horses and dogs have completely different body language. Also horses are prey animals and dogs are predators.
Bit worrying that anyone can think their body language is similar.
		
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There are very clear parallels and similarities between the displays which we receive from both dogs and horses.  Both horses and dogs would,  in a wild state be 'group living' animals (a herd and a pack),  and as they fit in with their group,  so they both have languages which are similar.  

It behoves those humans who would decide to influence both the horse and the dog,  to interpret their language and use it to our own ends.  The displays of fear,  aggression and acceptance from both dogs and horses,  are in fact similar,  for those who are able to read and interpret the message which is being offered.

Alec.


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## crabbymare (14 March 2015)

Someone I know who was posted to that area but a different country paid I think around £1500 to get a dog back to the UK if that helps but the best way is to talk direct to the airlines that go where you want and get an idea of what the costs are. I can ask how the fare was worked out but I suspect its by weight for the flight plus any import or export costs


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## Alec Swan (14 March 2015)

gunnergundog said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

For instance, a concise explanation is here:  http://en.turid-rugaas.no/calming-signals---the-art-of-survival.html

&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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An excellent and very well written article.  I'm not sure whether you offered it to contradict my thoughts,  or by way of support!  I'm in total agreement with the writer,  particularly the salient point;

**Dogs use this communication system towards us humans, simply because it´s the language they know and think everyone understands.**, &#8230;&#8230;.. I'd add to that,  and it's all that the dog has by way of communication. 

Specifically with dogs which are or were in the mists of time,  Herding Dogs,  collies,  GSDs etc., I also find that my body language is probably of greater influence than the spoken word.  It's rather a case of 'work in progress',  and as others,  I often fail,  though dogs being fairly forgiving,  mostly,  we find a way around it! 

Alec.

ps.  The article you've quoted,  and again,  thank you,  deserves 'Sticky status'!


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## Booboos (15 March 2015)

Dominance, pack theory and leaders are always trotted out in these threads with scant regard for facts.

There is a huge amount of literature on the behaviour of wolves in the wild, by researchers who have spent years observing packs and in at least one case by one very dedicated man who lived with the wolves.

Wolves have a leader but not in the sense used in dog training claims. This is the alpha female (yep female not male) who decides everything for the group. Her job is to ensure the group's survival and she decides when to hunt, what to hunt and how to hunt. She will also decide who gets accepted in the group and who gets thrown out for being too elderly or sick. When she dies packs fall apart. However she never engages other wolves directly.

The beta male is the enforcer, he carries out the alpha male's decisions and will engage other wolves. However within a pack these engagements are ritualistic and rarely result in physical contact. The most likely time for a wolf to be physically harmed by the beta is if the lone wolf requests to join a pack (there seem to be specific howls asking to join packs and specific howls asking for new members) but is then rejected.


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## planete (15 March 2015)

I am working with a trainer who is helping me rehabilitate a rescue fear biter at the moment.  What I am seeing is a use of his body language by the trainer, accurate reading of the dog's faintest signals, and rewards for any move from the dog towards the desired behaviours.  He is behaving like a benevolent leader, encouraging the dog to let go of his fears and proving to him again and again that he does not need to expect the worst in situations involving humans.  It is utterly fascinating to watch and it is working.  And the first thing he said the first time he came was: "Take the muzzle off".
I am not big on theory, but it seems to me this trainer is combining the best of all the discussed methods.  He does not call himself a behaviourist or a psychologist by the way.  I admit he dog in question is not an extreme case but  this thread is making me wonder how he would deal with a 'red zone dog' and I am going to ask him.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (18 March 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			personally I don't want my dogs to be dominated by me, I don't want them to fear which I equate with being dominated, I want my dogs to choose to be with me because I offer leadership, consistency (even if that is a consistent correction following a repeated action), they feel confident in my presence, I do believe that a dog needs guidance, correction and praise from a calm, focused leader.
dogs that do things because they are dominated or fearful can easily be pushed into defensive aggression or just leaving if it is possible at the point they are pushed too far, my lurcher comes back when we are walking wherever we are walking-if we are in company she will run amongst all the legs till she finds me then go of again unless called close, if she feels threatened by another dog she comes close and puts myself between her and the other dog-she trusts in my leadership to control a situation-the one time she has reacted differently was when she obviously felt uncomfortable with a fishermans intentions, she stood across the front of my legs close enough she was touching me the whole time she was there i could feel the low growl vibrating through her, I have only had one dog who has not been protective and he is the dog that runs off, has been run over twice, lives in his own world and guess what he is the dog that dominating training methods were used on, he has never exhibited any loyalty to anyone and I believe that is because he trusts no-one-he is also the only rescue i have had but he arrived in our house at 5 weeks so I believe too early for his past to be relevant, he is now 16yrs old and still going he is an exceptionally complicated and unusual dog and whilst he has taught me not to try and dominate my dogs I still believe in short sharp reprimands when needed.
I don't want flat soulless, expressionless servants in my dogs or horses I want light and character to shine through in my animals but alongside that I want a willingness to please and be in my company. every animal is different and whilst the fundamentals may be the same the fine tuning is subject appropriate.

shutting an animal down puts it in a place it cannot learn-that is the idea of shut down an animal cannot be mentally scarred whilst in shut down the damage is done on the way there, eg a friends horse fell over in a trailer on the way to a training weekend, they were not aware of the severity of the event until they arrived at their location, they had felt a very brief 'something' during the journey-in fact what they had felt was the partition and horse falling over some 40 = minutes before arriving, when they opened the trailer they found the horse in 'shutdown' on her side with the partition on top of her, she remained in shut down whilst the partition was removed and vet was called by the time the vet arrived (15mins)  horse was stood in a stable eating hay she had bruising and minor grazes, not signs of shock-the owner was very worried about re loading the mare to go home so one of the ground work instructors did it for her and the horse walked straight on-the vet and the instructors believed animals cannot retain any memory of things that create or happen in true shut down if they did they would live in a permanent state of fear-shutdown is a natural automatic self defense system is what i have learnt from those I have trained with over the years and shutdown is dangerous as they can come out of it like a rocket.
		
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Very well said. I would also hate it if my dogs saw me as a source of fear instead of a kind leader who is fun to be around. All this talk about dogs being 'servants' makes me sick! Then again I am not surprised considering there are too many people that arrogantly think that their own species is so vastly superior to others.

Anyway I used to be a big fan of Cesar Millan. I used to be one of those devoted fans who would defend him no matter what. Then I got my own dogs and studied their behaviour. I also thought to myself would I really want to 'touch' or 'tap' them on one of the most sensitive parts of their bodies? Would I want to shock them or yank them about with their leads? I arrived at the conclusion that dogs do in fact think for themselves (CM has said on more than one occasion that dogs don't think), that it doesn't matter if dogs are fed before their humans, that it doesn't matter if they exit/enter the house first or if they get out in front on walks. I also realised that dogs can get free reign of the house and will not try to 'take over' the place. There is no way on this earth that I would put a nasty shock collar on them. My Greyhound will yelp if she gets a static shock when her fleecy coats are taken off. My Lurcher (who is usually pretty good at hiding pain) even started to whimper badly when he got a static shock from one of his coats. To say that shock collars don't hurt dogs is a load of rubbish. It is also entirely possible to 'snap a dog out of it' without using force. Loose lead/heel training is also easy enough to accomplish using force free methods. 

What Cesar does is a band aid fix. He merely suppresses undesired behaviour. He shuts a dog down (correct term - puts them into a state of learned helplessness) instead of getting to the bottom of what is actually causing the behaviour and working to change that behaviour with counter conditioning. He also floods dogs and there is no denying that he does. Dragging a dog across a tiled floor when the dog was terrified of tiled floors is what you call flooding. He keeps on going on about how dogs are like wolves despite the fact that dogs stopped being wolves many thousands of years ago. He also persists in saying that most of the dogs he meets with behavioural problems are being dominant and hardly ever fearful, insecure or just overly boisterous. He has also made some of the dogs that appeared on his show worse. Look at how he treated Shadow. He was the Malamute mix that Cesar pretty much strung up. The original rescue that had him were so appalled by his treatment that they approached his adopters and managed to get him back. At this point Shadow's behaviour had gotten worse and he had bitten his adoptive mother after she punished him using Cesar's methods. The rescue worked with his using positive reinforcement and his behaviour improved significantly. Then there is Cotton the Eskimo dog who ended up having his teeth filed down. Ruby the Viszla went on to bite one if the kids in the house and family wanted her to be put to sleep. A vet intervened and tried to get CM back on the case, but that is all that is known. Ruby's fate might have been sealed with a lethal injection. JonBee the Jindo ended up in a shelter and his fate is also unknown. Cesar's methods are dangerous and like I said they are a temporary fix. When a dog shuts down because they have been bullied and intimidated their unwanted behaviours can still surface because they have not been modified. They have merely been supressed.

His popularity is definitely fading. His 2013 tour of the UK was cancelled with the excuse being that it was 'double booked'. When in reality there is a huge movement in the UK for him to never return to British soil. He also appeared on the Alan Titchmarsh show ahead of 2013 tour and to give AT a lot of credit he did his research beforehand and was disgusted at the way CM treats dogs. He confronted him about his methods and the fact that dogs are not wolves. All CM did was deflect attention away from the questions. Also have a look at Jordan Shelley. He was the behaviourist who was going to have a weekly segment on the One Show. During his first (and only) segment he used methods that were similar to CM's. After many complaints his segment was cancelled. He has now converted to using positive methods. I think CM perhaps got the message that he is not wanted over here. It is also funny how his second tour of the UK has not been rescheduled. He was also forbidden from demonstrating his methods in Germany as they do not conform to their welfare laws. He was also due to have a big TV interview in Denmark a few years ago, but after the TV station did its research, his interview was cut by at least half. A training session with him was filmed, but never shown. Then again his methods are frowned upon in Denmark and shock collars are banned there too. Since The Dog Whisperer was cancelled, his other shows have not done well. Neither Doggy Nightmares or Leader of the Pack lasted long and time will tell if Cesar 911 is a hit or not.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (18 March 2015)

I would also ask those of you who support him to watch the first episode of Doggy Nightmares. It was quite frankly appalling. I only made it through the first half before switching over to something else. He had been 'helping' a family to adopt a second dog. At the rescue shelter, one of the kids (who both turned out to be obnoxious brats) had gravitated towards one particular dog. Cesar agreed that he was the 'right' dog for them. He allowed both the mother and father and the two boys in a small kennel with the dog. The dog started to become anxious and was showing signs that he might bite. Cesar should not have overwhelmed the dog like that in the first place and it was only after the parents put the youngest boy on the ground (they had been holding him and the boy went to try and touch the dog) that Cesar went into the kennel and intervened.  They also had a cat, but Cesar never bothered to check if the dog would be okay with cats and one of the first things the dog did when they took him home was to stalk and chase the cat. There was no gradually introducing the dog to the cat. Unbelievable. The dog had not been toilet trained and guess what the mother said? She said she was busy toilet training a child and didn't need the hassle of training a pet as well! Do you know what Cesar recommended for toilet training? Tethering the dog to a piece of furniture in the house. He said that would also help to restrict the dog's movements in the house (as he doesn't believe in dogs having full access to a house) and would also stop the dog begging at mealtimes. Again that was unbelievable! Does he know anything about basic training?? The show's production team had installed cameras around the house to monitor the dog's progress. What it revealed was shocking. One of the boys (who I think was about five) had gone out to the back yard to see the dog. He proceeded to handle the dog very roughly and the dog ended up biting him. He then kicked the dog several times. He ran into his parents and lied to them saying the dog had bitten him and that he hadn't done anything to the dog. When Cesar viewed the footage with the parents, the expressions on the parents faces suggested that they weren't that bothered about what their son had done to the dog, but more annoyed about him lying. To give Cesar a little bit of credit he did look a bit on the appalled side. But Cesar never said to them that the dog would be better off somewhere else. So he left the poor dog with that nasty family. Shame on him!

There is more that I would like to say on the subject, but this has been a long enough reply.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (18 March 2015)

Shady said:



			totally agree
 i have been watching him for years and have never seen him' promote 'the use of gadgets, far from it infact and i do not understand how you can confuse dominance with being a strong leader. if you look at the body language of the dogs that live with him, many of which are red zone cases they are not cowering from him in submission when he enters but are calm and relaxed ,the only time i have seen him use an electric collar is as Mister Ted says to teach Daddy not to go near snakes and it was used correctly and successfully.
		
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He has used shock collars a lot more often than that. One time his use of one got a woman bitten. He had zapped her GSD and the dog redirected onto her. So in that instance it was not done correctly (mind you no usage of one is correct) or successfully. I would say a more effective way of not allowing a dog to be bitten by a snake is to not let them off lead in areas where snakes are present.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (18 March 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



			A very over used phrase dogs shutting down, if you want to see a dog shut down go and look at some of the long term residents in rescue(usually Staffies who dont do well in kennels). These dogs will be sat at the back of the kennel with a blank look on their face, have no interest in people., other dogs or food. 

Some of the dogs that Cm deals with are not the sort of dogs anyone on here has dealt with apart from one I know, from what Ive seen of him he has shown great restraint and patience, the dogs are not fixed but are on the right road with guidance to the owners who are obviously given homework to do. The really bad ones are taken back to his centre and get lots of one to one, one dog even after going back to him was not returned to the owner but he found another dog for them which was much more suitable. I must say I love his pitbull Daddy and all his dogs look a really happy balanced pack of dogs which is no mean feat of training.
		
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Why don't you have a read of http://www.thecrossovertrainer.com/one-persons-experience-with-the-dog-whisperer/ I do wonder if the dogs mentioned in that article were happy with the fear of being shocked.


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## SpringArising (18 March 2015)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			Why don't you have a read of http://www.thecrossovertrainer.com/one-persons-experience-with-the-dog-whisperer/

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I just read it all and I have to say that I am underwhelmed.

There was no concrete evidence to back anything up that she said. In particular:




			Also, other things one can&#8217;t even imagine, which I know that happened at a herding instructors facility, but are protected by confidentiality agreements and other waivers. Cesar is self-taught and he doesn&#8217;t even appear to understand why what he does works [or their long their term effects, for that matter]. There are professionals out there who really do understand the whys and hows of dog behavior and their consensus is that Cesar&#8217;s explanations are mostly nonsense.
		
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Where is the evidence for that statement?


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## Dobiegirl (18 March 2015)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			Why don't you have a read of http://www.thecrossovertrainer.com/one-persons-experience-with-the-dog-whisperer/ I do wonder if the dogs mentioned in that article were happy with the fear of being shocked.
		
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I did read it and was stunned by the stupidity of this person who owned 2 Dachshunds and then buys a Fila Brasileiro, these dogs are banned in the UK for very good reasons. I belong to a rare breed group and there are quite a few owners of this breed on there, they are very specialised dogs with specialised needs, who is to say that the behaviours her dog exhibited are caused by CM and not just normal traits for the breed. The owner sounds very inept anyway and as has been seen time and time again on CMs programmes its nearly always the owners who have and cause the problems. 

I have started watching the first series and found it very informative, maybe the later series are different I dont know as havnt seen them so cant comment but from what Ive seen he uses good old common sense.


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## SpringArising (18 March 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



			who is to say that the behaviours her dog exhibited are caused by CM and not just normal traits for the breed. The owner sounds very inept anyway and as has been seen time and time again on CMs programmes its nearly always the owners who have and cause the problems.
		
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Completely agree.


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## california dreaming (19 March 2015)

Teaselmeg said:



			CM regularly used prong collars and shock collars and 'forgets' to mention them.  In one of his early episodes, there is a woman who wants her dog to like her cat, so the cat is in a crate and the dog is brought in.  The dog has a dark hairy coat, but if you look closely he is wearing a shock collar and CM has the control in his hand. Every time he zaps the dog he yelps and eventually the dog redirects and bites the owner - great training !  

In the infamous Shadow episode ( husky mix that shreds his new sweater) the dog starts out with him lead popping him on a prong collar, which makes the dog worse and then you suddenly see the dog with one of his cheesewire slip leads on instead.  Shadow was subsequently returned to the rescue as despite CM 'working' with the dog to point where the dog was collapsed on the ground and wet himself, he did not help the dog, in fact made it worse. There was also a video taken of his people winding the dog up before filming to make him worse for the cameras.  The dog was rehomed to someone using reward based methods and is doing very well.

He may of started out with a decent knowledge of dogs, but he has sold his soul for fame and money.  His programmes are banned in several countries and recently he arrived in Germany to do his show and had to pass their basic dog behaviour test to be allowed to do his show - he failed it.  

Cowering, lip licking, ears flat back, head turning away are worldwide well known signs that a dog is stressed or fearful, not 'calm submissive'. Dog training and rehabilitation should be about teaching what you want the dog to do, not just reprimanding the dog every time it gets it( in your opinion) wrong, how often do you see him praise the dog for getting it right !
		
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Yes.  This is my point exactly which people seem totally blind to.  He regularly uses pronged collars and shock treatment on basic training cases.  I believe in the USA spiked collars and shock treatment are sold openly in pet shops so am not surprised he uses them as a matter of course.  I really wish trainers like John Rogerson would have their own TV series here in the UK.  Then, you would see dog training as it should be done. And I mean ALL types of training from pet to police dog, all types of aggression and other behavioural problems. Don't think he bothers with gun dog though.


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## TheOldTrout (21 March 2015)

There was a horrible episode a few weeks ago where a woman was trying to get her dog to go on a treadmill for its exercise.  CM forced the dog onto the treadmill, it was panting with distress while it was on there, then he had the owner trying to drag the dog onto the treadmill while it tried to run away. I'd have thought the sensible thing to suggest was finding a better way of exercising the dog.


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## SpringArising (21 March 2015)

TheOldTrout said:



			There was a horrible episode a few weeks ago where a woman was trying to get her dog to go on a treadmill for its exercise.  CM forced the dog onto the treadmill, it was panting with distress while it was on there, then he had the owner trying to drag the dog onto the treadmill while it tried to run away. I'd have thought the sensible thing to suggest was finding a better way of exercising the dog.
		
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Dogs pant for all sorts of reasons. And it's not about trying to find ways around things and sweeping issues under the rug. It's about tackling the problem head on; something a lot of animal owners unfortunately don't do.


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