# 7 MONTH OLD PUPPY- HELP!



## LittleLex (27 November 2012)

Hi all,

I need some help and advice with my puppy!

90% of the time she is my angel, I love her to bits. However recently she has started pushing the boundaries. For example if she is on the sofa and I want her to get off I tell her off, she hops off but then starts barking and going to bite me and getting herself all wound up. If I tell her to lay down or sit she will do what I say but if I don't she just carries on. My mum also lives with us and gets scared when she starts and it turns into a shouting match between the 2 of them. Another way to get her to calm down is put her in another room for a few minutes just to cool off. What I want to know is will my angel puppy ever come back? and am I doing something wrong? Since we've been having problems she isn't aloud on the sofa at all and hasn't tried for a few days. After speaking to a few people the common response is its her hormones kicking in but I never remember this with my other bitch.


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## Dobiegirl (27 November 2012)

What breed is she? some breeds are assertive little sausages if time out works I would carry on with that.. Be aware you may be giving her mixed signals, is she allowed on the sofa some of the time and not others, you have to be consistent. Just be very firm with her and dont go shouting at her because that may be winding her up.


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## LittleLex (27 November 2012)

She is a working cocker spaniel so I knew I was going to have my hands full! 

She used to be aloud of the sofa but since she started getting so mouthy when she was told to move, especially by my mum, we decided that she'd have an indefinite ban of sofa time. She doesn't try to get on the sofa anymore but still has mouthy outbursts.

Shouting at her definitely doesn't work! she almost needs the time out to get her head back together then she walks out like a little angel again. I would just love her outbursts to stop completely! I'd say we probably have about 3-4 a day


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## Amymay (27 November 2012)

Why would you shout at her??


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## LittleLex (27 November 2012)

amymay as explained my mum shouts at her (I think as a reaction to being scared of her when she starts barking). Do you have any advice you can offer to stop my puppy getting mouthy in the first place? Or have you any experiences you can share?


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## Luci07 (27 November 2012)

Is this your first working cocker? I love the breed but they are seriously high energy dogs. 2 friends have them and they need a LOT of exercise..!


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## LittleLex (27 November 2012)

Yes she definitely does! This is my first after owning border collies before, she made them seem easy


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## CorvusCorax (27 November 2012)

As you have done, just cut the sofa out altogether to remove any confusion.

Get yourself the book The Culture Clash by Jane Donaldson which teaches about bite inhibition.

You sound like a very high energy household. Dogs do not like this sort of energy and some feed off it and it makes them mental. Trust me, I know 

IGNORE tantrums, speak and act slowly and clearly and if you have to be firm, be fair about it, don't lose your temper.

Also, be clear about your commands, a common mistake is for people to tell the dog to get DOWN off the sofa, when the dog is usually already in the DOWN position when it is on the sofa. 

LIE DOWN is two words, one of which is totally superflous and confusing.

SIT DOWN! is two completely different commands.

Dogs normally throw tantrums when they are confused and frustrated. Dogs are usually confused and frustrated because we make them that way.


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## Alec Swan (27 November 2012)

LittleLex said:



			........ Do you have any advice you can offer to stop my puppy getting mouthy in the first place? Or have you any experiences you can share?
		
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I realise that the question wasn't aimed at me,  but I'll butt in if I may!

Yes,  there is something which you can do;  the very next time that she shows any form of defiance,  or she answers back,  take a good hold of the loose skin around her throat,  pick her up so that her front feet are off the floor,  and give her a bloody good wallop.  If she tries mouthing or biting you,  to make you let go,  then give her another one,  only harder,  and keep going until she stops.

Cruel?  No not really,  you'll be doing what any other dog in a pack would do to put her in her place.  At the moment,  she's got the better of you,  and it's time that you turned the tables!!

I have 4 work bred cockers,  3 puppies and an adult bitch.  They can be the most opinionated of dogs,  and they can be sharp.  The trick is to be in charge,  and shouting matches,  with the dog answering back,  isn't the way to achieve that. 

Alec.


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## Venevidivici (27 November 2012)

I have a Pointer puppy about a couple of months younger than yours. He is a confident and brave boy (in comparison to our previous family dogs) and has just started to push the boundaries of acceptable behaviour. He is pushed down  from the sofa with a firm 'NO!' every time he gets up/tries to get up on it and if he persists,we repeat this but grab him by the scruff of his neck to deposit him on the floor! If he has something he shouldn't (kids doll/my woolly hat/slipper etc!) and won't release it,I get his scruff,hold him still and say 'DROP it!'. He is rapidly getting the message and does not like (tho he doesn't retaliate) the scruff action! He will give a tiny whine and sometimes slink off-I hope by mimicking dog behaviour (using his scruff) I'm doing it firmly but fairly and he always comes back to me happy but definitely 'told' in his demeanour (head &tail slightly down,licky tongue,slow tail wag). That is what I'm aiming for 
Yours sounds like he's trying it on,attempting to elevate his pack position-am sure you'll win but it's a bit like say,napping in a horse can be-persistent,consistent,clear signals should probably sort it out but may take a while. Good luck!


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## MurphysMinder (27 November 2012)

Brave man Alec !  But I agree with you, imo a good shaking doesn't do any harm,  I remember years ago when we had our first Heeler, she was a defiant little madam and because she was so tiny I didn't treat her as I would have done a GSD pup.  Eventually I decided enough was enough so she had a couple of good shakings , from then on she decided she really ought to do as she was told, and although she never lost her character she became a far better mannered little dog.
OP what are you doing with the pup in the way of training, they have a brain that they really need to use, if she is bored she will only thing of ways to occupy herself, and you can almost guarantee it will be things you won't like.  A lot of breeds do go through a stage from around 6 months on of trying it on, my Freya went from being an angel with other dogs to being really gobby at them, a few sharp lessons and at 8 months she is now okay again.


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## Amymay (27 November 2012)

Jesus.....................


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## NeverSayNever (27 November 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Also, be clear about your commands, a common mistake is for people to tell the dog to get DOWN off the sofa, when the dog is usually already in the DOWN position when it is on the sofa. 

LIE DOWN is two words, one of which is totally superflous and confusing.

SIT DOWN! is two completely different commands.
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OMG AND AMEN TO THIS ^^^^^ I sounded like a stuck record taking my classed and it absolutely INFURIATES me that people cant grasp this. it also drives me nuts when people visiting start saying down/off/sit to my dogs in the wrong context or sometimes altogether.

OP - my behaviour classes were dominated by working cockers   As others have said they can be very opinionated and need clear boundaries and above all, consistency. They can also ime be difficult to motivate if they have been allowed a taste of making their own decisions, they are strong willed and independent wee blighters and their noses will overrule whatever you are telling them to do unless you ascertain some control. Consistency consistency consistency. 

Amymay, why bother answering a thread with one liners without actually offering any advice?


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## Amymay (27 November 2012)

Amymay, why bother answering a thread with one liners without actually offering any advice?
		
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Well, my first response was a question.

And my second was the first thing that popped in to my head after reading Alec's post (and MM's response to it).


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## CorvusCorax (27 November 2012)

NeverSayNever said:



			OMG AND AMEN TO THIS ^^^^^ I sounded like a stuck record taking my classed and it absolutely INFURIATES me that people cant grasp this. it also drives me nuts when people visiting start saying down/off/sit to my dogs in the wrong context or sometimes altogether.
		
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My mother frequently tells my dog to 'stay'- she might as well say 'banana' because it is not part of his vocabulary and he has no idea what it means.
Also 'out' as in to leave the room or get his head out of the dishwasher  when 'out' means he has to let go of something in his mouth, when he never had anything in his mouth in the first place.


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## Big Ben (27 November 2012)

I've read a few of Alec's comments on dog handling threads, and the advice is old fashioned, hands on and sounds rough, but guess what it works.

My only caveat is that is works if done without anger or temper, same as any animal handling.


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## NeverSayNever (27 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Well, my first response was a question.

And my second was the first thing that popped in to my head after reading Alec's post (and MM's response to it).
		
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fair do&#8217;s, a i minute ago you just replied &#8216;because you can&#8217; which seemed more likely



CaveCanem said:



			My mother frequently tells my dog to 'stay'- she might as well say 'banana' because it is not part of his vocabulary and he has no idea what it means.
Also 'out' as in to leave the room or get his head out of the dishwasher  when 'out' means he has to let go of something in his mouth, when he never had anything in his mouth in the first place.
		
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oh i hear you cc


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## CorvusCorax (27 November 2012)

While it's not always wise to advocate slapping or scruffing a dog you can't see in front of you (not knowing its motivations, not knowing if it is a dog likely to come back at you, not knowing if it might ruin the dog altogether) it's just another piece of advice which the OP has the right to take or leave as she sees fit.


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## Amymay (27 November 2012)

Hopefully as someone with seeming little experience, it's advice they'll leave.


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## CorvusCorax (27 November 2012)

Amymay, people use and advise the methods that work for them, and their dogs, there's book/internet learning and there's practical learning, what works for one dog will not work for another, which people who have more than one dog and more than one 'type' (character) of dog will come to learn over the years. I've never met two humans who had exactly the same personality or learning style and I don't see why we think dogs are any different. I for one am glad that there is a wide range of advice available on the forum, even stuff I don't agree with.


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## Dobiegirl (27 November 2012)

Its always a problem giving advice when you dont know the dog being referred to. I wouldnt advocate this for every breed in fact if I had done this to one of my rescue Dobes when he jumped on the sofa and I said off and he growled at me and  had I grabbed him I would have set him up very nicely for biting me. Instead I went behind the sofa and tipped it up at the same time as saying off. I never had a problem again.


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## Spudlet (27 November 2012)

This demonstrates why it is better to get advice from a trainer than a forum. A trainer can see the dog and handler in front of them and advise accordingly - on a forum everyone gives out their pet theory and often, it is the one who simply shouts loudest who is heard. OP, I would advise you to get advice from someone who can actually see what your dog is doing and what you are doing and give you advice based on the facts.

For what it's worth (I suspect very little, but anyway), the working cockers I have had in our classes have tended towards being fairly sensitive souls who would not have dealt well with a rough approach as is being advocated by some. Of course every dog will differ which is why you need the help of someone present, in person.


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## MurphysMinder (27 November 2012)

amymay, you only have to look back through a few pages in AAD to see how many dogs are causing their owners problems by being totally over the top in their behaviour.  Similarly, the rescues are full of dogs that owners can't cope with so give them up.   I firmly believe that people are too reluctant to train firmly and if needed discipline their dogs.  I have changed my training methods a lot over the years, we were only saying on a training day earlier this month that 30 years ago dogs were never given treats when training, their reward was a quick "good girl", and a pat.   I use reward training now, and some clicker work, but as said above, if my dogs are naughty they get told off.  They aren't exactly shivering wrecks, so I don't think it has done them any harm.  Freya is trying it on with her mother quite a lot at the moment, resulting in Evie pinning her to the ground by her throat and  not letting go until Freya has accepted that she really shouldn't knock mummy endways. 
I do take CCs point about scruffing/shaking not working for every dog, but it has certainly worked for mine.

Ets.  Spudlet, I agree it is best to get advice from a trainer who can see the dog, but it has to be the right trainer.  It horrifies me how many trainers there are about who can only train biddable dogs, and if dogs cause any probems they are either asked to leave a class, or are basically ignored.


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## Amymay (27 November 2012)

I agree CC.  However scruffing is for the experienced handler only - and a questionable method for the puppy described.

I'm horrified actually that it would be suggested.


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## Amymay (27 November 2012)

MM, 30 years experience compared to the owners what? A few.....

There's a massive difference.

This owner needs a good training class, nothing more.


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## Dobiegirl (27 November 2012)

I completely agree MM and its just not dogs dare I say it children as well, reward the good behaviour and ignore the bad, this sounds like how I got 2 of my Dobes. Dogs are not stupid, Pip runs rings around my daughter but wouldnt try it with me and its not because I beat her but she has to behave with me.


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## Venevidivici (27 November 2012)

Uh oh..is what I have done to my pup really wrong in most of your opinions?? I am genuinely surprised(I don't confess to be any kind of an expert at all-have just had my own dogs and dogs in the family since I was a kid,30years ago) but it just seemed natural to me that when he ignored my quite plain command (and then the same repeated louder&more firmly) that I removed him from the sofa by his scruff(he doesn't wear a collar all the time in the house)as it was the best way to move him with one hand and in my other example,to lift him slightly up off whatever forbidden booty he was crouched over. :-/ He never responded aggressively(no growl or attempt to bite) rather he froze a bit,like 'Oh cr*p. Pushed it too far!' I feel like some monster owner now and there was I thinking he's coming along great!  I was merely telling the OP what worked for me and wanted to reassure her that she wasn't alone in her 'angel' pup turning into a bit of a gobby bruiser...'tis the same with dogs,horses,kids...


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## MurphysMinder (27 November 2012)

Of course you're not a monster owner (well not in my view anyway), your lad showed the reaction mine have all done , and Freya does to her mum.  Its worked for your pup and that is the end result everyone wants surely.


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## Clodagh (27 November 2012)

I have well behaved horses, dogs and kids. Set firm boundaries and stick to them. Like Alec I am in favour of discipline and surely God gave dogs a scruff so you have something to grab? A scruff hold to remove or discipline a dog is better than a clout. I haven't scruffed the kids yet - they haven't needed it - but horses are expected to move 'Over' or 'Back' a soon as I say it and I have been known to pinch a lump of skin on their neck if they don't budge.

Our dogs are never allowed on the sofa or furniture but I always expect instant obedience from them whatever I am asking. IMO fluffy ownership causes endless problems, we are in charge not them. OP - that isn't all aimed at you. I would say that with any animal and child if you lose your temper/shout you have lost the argument. Keep calm and be assertive.


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## Alec Swan (27 November 2012)

amymay said:



			MM, 30 years experience compared to the owners what? A few.....

There's a massive difference.

This owner needs a good training class, nothing more.
		
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amymay,  I understand your doubts,  really I do,  but how do you think that a "Training Class" will help with the management of a wilful puppy who's behaviour,  whilst in the home,  isn't acceptable?  

Horse and cart springs to mind.  I'd suggest that when the puppy has learned some manners,  and understands its place within the home,  then that may be the time for training classes.

Puppies that learn how to be compliant from an early age,  tend not to challenge later on in life,  but when they do,  they need to acquire the knack of listening,  when they're spoken too. 

These are just my views,  and I don't expect you to agree with me!!

Alec.


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## NeverSayNever (27 November 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			amymay,  I understand your doubts,  really I do,  but how do you think that a "Training Class" will help with the management of a wilful puppy who's behaviour,  whilst in the home,  isn't acceptable?  

Horse and cart springs to mind.  I'd suggest that when the puppy has learned some manners,  and understands its place within the home,  then that may be the time for training classes.

Puppies that learn how to be compliant from an early age,  tend not to challenge later on in life,  but when they do,  they need to acquire the knack of listening,  when they're spoken too. 

These are just my views,  and I don't expect you to agree with me!!

Alec.
		
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tbf Alec a god training class _should_ begin by ascertaining exactly how things are in the home and equipping the new owner with the correct knowledge and skills to create a harmonious relationship. Then formal training can begin. 

That said, therein lies one of the main reasons I stick to training my own dogs these days...  99% of people sign up expecting you to train the dog for them and not to have to put in any work in between classes. People come along expecting to learn sit/stay/down/recalls etc etc but to do that they need to have the foundations in place; the basic respect - as you say i speak , you listen and motivation to work for the owner. People think that happens naturally and with some very lucky ones it does, but in most cases its up to the new owner to convince their dog that actually, yes I am the most interesting thing in your world and its me you pay attention to. Teaching that to some owners in itself can take several weeks and Id often advise leaving the dog at home


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## Alec Swan (27 November 2012)

N_S_N,

an excellent post,  and I agree with you,  or at least understand your well made points.

Alec.


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## stargirl88 (27 November 2012)

Im going to sound like a flower compared to you lot 

But really OP, I would personally suggest that you dont scruff, nor shake your dog. Every time someone says to me "well this is what they do in the wild" - alrighty. We are not in the wild and we are not dogs. Just consistency, IMO, is what you need. It is hard to say without knowing the ins-and-outs of what she is doing. I would say if a time out works, then be consistent with that. She will learn that her outbursts get her no-where.
As you have already been told, the shouting etc is pointless and will not help you. 

I would never, ever advise a pet dog owner to scruff their dog. She is still young, and clearly sensitive - you can quickly make a dog hand-shy. A hand-shy dog may never bite its owner - but the tension is there. My dad whacked and scruffed my older dog when he was a puppy to correct him - which worked - but he did often whince if he was suddenly touched - or a hand came down to stroke him too fast. I don't want that.

A good training class can tell you about good handling - not just the recalls and sits. So many people come along to our classes and thinks the sun shines out of their puppies backside - but to me, the thing is a little gob****e. Which just made me wonder OP whether there is more to it than just a tantrum because he cant get on the couch - maybe there are other aspects to his life where he gets away with things - you think is acceptable simoly because he hasnt reacted to you saying "no" yet? I hope to god that makes sense Im on my mobile and am just waffling away as the words enter my brain 

In a nutshell - when I work with small puppies and small dogs - I train them in the same way I'd train a giant rottie if I was 6 stone. I try not to rely on physical strength just becuase the dog is smaller & therefore I can. Waffle over!


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## NeverSayNever (27 November 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			N_S_N,

an excellent post,  and I agree with you,  or at least understand your well made points.

Alec.
		
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wow  thank you


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## Venevidivici (27 November 2012)

^^^ I see what you're saying stargirl and agree that advice from people who've seen the dog is probably the most accurate but for that very reason,I think it was necessary to scruff my pup-i could see it was necessary to stop him becoming the bolshy little gob*****e I think he would become if not! I've never had to do it to any other dog we've had and the pertinent fact is that he is,by far,the boldest,cockiest pup we've ever had. My family were quite amazed by him. Two vets have commented how confident and bullish he is (the first at his 10wk jab). I've had to adjust my training& discipline to fit. I most certainly do not want him to be/grow up to be scared of me but I do insist he respects me and my commands. The rest of the time,yes,he lives a life of luxury,hogging the fire,racing around 12acres playing with his pointer,lab & spaniel friends and has a massive array of toys and expensive food to eat. If he tries to stick 2fingers up at me when I tell him off the sofa,he can expect his collar/scruff to get felt...it's a fair cop! ;D


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## Venevidivici (27 November 2012)

Ps I think the poor OP has been scared off this thread....they have disappeared without trace


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## bubbilygum (27 November 2012)

We have an Airedale and went through something similar at about this age. Eventually we found ignoring her worked best. I know this is the total OPPOSITE of what you are "supposed" to do, but I honestly had enough of her and just walked out of the room and left her for five minutes, went somewhere she couldn't see me. She had a winge and a moan and when she stopped that I came back. I think she realised she pushed it too far and it was attention she wanted, not dominance over me or control over the sofa or whatever way you want to look at it. Me shouting at her etc was still, effectively, giving her what she wanted and was completely counter productive. She would shout back and it went on and on. Once she realised that life was more fun when none of us were shouting or being bossy she stopped being such a diva about things.

This could be an entirely different situation you are in, and you might think "this won't work" or "this bubbilygum is a total doggy dunce" and that's fine, but it worked for us (and Airedales are notoriously stubborn!)

Don't bother asking about how we taught her recall though, that's a work in progress (and she's 20 months old now ).


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## Cinnamontoast (27 November 2012)

We tried fluffy methods with Zak then found a new trainer who has very old fashioned ideas. He has advocated that another owner hit his dog, but not ours. He has taught us to check very firmly with a choke chain and to expect total obedience. We had months of going through a really difficult time with Zak and whilst he's certainly not 100% perfect, the harsh methods have worked. I think we've gone as far as we can with this guy and it's time to find another trainer to progress him.

I digress. If the OP comes back on, I'd suggest utter consistency. You wouldn't teach one canter aid to a youngster then allow someone else to use another, would you? Firm, fair, occasional treats, say no and mean it, get your mother on board and don't give the dog different aids/instructions. Physical aids can be useful, but can also lead to aggression. 

She's young, don't confuse her and don't blame her if two people let her do different things and give her different instructions.


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## CAYLA (27 November 2012)

Hi, I have skim read and whilst I don't disagree with any advice. I do belive in such instanes the OP really does need someone to demonstrate how best to control the behaviour. I am there in the room) and itching to step in to show you your wrong doings (in the nicest way) but with this there is no doubt I/other trainers/advisors would need to ask alot of questions/meet the dog and see how you manage the dog.
when using vocals or hndlin you ned to be confident and consistant otherwise the dog sees you as a play budddy to stem it's boredom an bcause it wasall cute when he was a baby and h no longer is and he is big enough and energeic enough to be acting more like tigegr in your home (it's now becoming a issue) and this is why I alway bang on about (starting as you mean to go on) and not creating such behaviours or encouraging them for the only to esculate.
I can see how he now sees this as a game and how he thrives on the attention he gets from it and the audience he draws and how frustrated you are getting. It is easily fixed but I don't see you being able to do it from written advice (as good as it is) cockers esp love this game your handling/lack of conviction will be the issue.
I also know to take such tedious issues seriously as over the past months I have worked with puppies displaying exact puppyish behaivours and it spiralling into aggression (something I would have rolled my eyes laughed off many months ago) until I saw the level of aggression these ridiculously young pups where displaying my self, funnily enough all working dogs including 2 working cockers and a patterdale the patterdale I removed from the home after she attacked the owner pretty bad) and the owner lost confidence and became terrified (in my house se is a completely different dog)

You do need guidance and training class (would be good) depending on he class!! but I do belive you need someone at home too, to meet you the dog and your mam and better advise you, time out as suggested is fab for such behaviours (but it is the manner in which you do it and weather your conviction is worthy of taking seriously) and what other behaviours as little as they seem are needing to be addressed.
Also block her before you even have to get to removing her if need be make all other chairs in accecible so if she gets on its has to be beside you where you are sitting and you are then in a better position to block her advances to jump, and offer up a alternative a (bed) i which to direct her. Don't shout or chase or prolong the method you chose) this becomes more a game he/she finds fun to participate in.

Where are you based?


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## LittleLex (28 November 2012)

Wow, I am overwhelmed by the number of suggestions from you all! Thanks a lot  I wasn't able to log on last night but have enjoyed reading them all this morning.

For those who suggest a good training class, she has been going since she has been able weekly to a reputable training school in the area. I have discussed her behaviour with our trainer and she has witnessed it first hand. Her advise and what we are trained follows "Don't do that, do this" which is why when she throws her tantrums (for want of a better word) instead of attempting to tell her off normally a quick "Down" suffices. 

I do agree though we need to be more consistent and am trying to get my mum to go to training with her so she can also learn the methods that have been taught to us. She currently watches but doesn't want to actually do it because she is scared of being rubbish, for me an even better reason to take part!

Its reassuring to hear other people have had experiences with puppies of her age so she isn't the only one! Like I said before she is such an angel and a pleasure to be around 90% of the time I just want it back to 100% of the time


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