# Dangerous / aggressive horse - advice needed?!



## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Hi all, I will try to keep this as short as possible, but I am in a really difficult situation and it's totally breaking my heart, so any advice is appreciated and welcomed. 

I have had my horse for about 2.5 years. I had him straight off the track. He was always 'quirky' and sharp, the first day i brought him home he was difficult to put a rug on (trying to bite and lifted a back leg etc) and the same for saddling when we come to that. He has always been good under saddle (I have only ever done hacking and light schooling with him). I contacted the staff at the race yard he came from who said he was always a grump on the ground/in the stable etc but manageable. 

Anyway - 12 months ago, his behaviour worsened overnight. He suddenly became aggressive (i still to this day cannot work out a reason). He chased me out of the field twice, ears pinned and teeth showing. I was shocked but thought there must be a reason for this, as his behaviour continued to worsen. Later that day he tried to attack me whilst I changed his rug, he actually snapped the string he was tied up to to try and get me. I phoned the vet straight away as I suspected ulcers, I took him into the clinic the next day and had him scoped. As predicted, grade 2&3 squamous, glandular and pyloric ulcers bless him. Not suprising considering he was a racehorse. Treated with Omeprazole for four weeks and he scoped perfectly clear. I was hopeful his behaviour would improve now the ulcers were sorted (his management was totally fine for an ulcer prone horse, vet said nothing needed to change there, I always manage horses as though they have got ulcers just as a preventative measure!) 

This is where it all started to go downhill. His behaviour started getting worse. I have had numerous behaviourists out to him, to no avail, perhaps some slight improvement with one of them but very shortlasting (a couple of weeks) and then boom, back to normal. I dont let anybody else handle my horse, i know him very well so i can tell when he is about to do something. His behaviour got so bad that in May of this year I went to stroke him whilst he was in the field and he lunged at me and sent me flying backwards through the fence. I think I was temporarily knocked out for a couple of seconds as his head collided with mine. This is where i thought, right, I need to dig deeper. I had the vet out again for a re-scope (which he scoped perfectly clear again and back x-rays (which were fine). I was stumped. Carried on working with behaviourist trainer. 

I moved yards in the summer as where we were wasnt particularly a nice environment and i wondered if this was contributing if he was not happy. We are at a lovely quiet yard now but the behaviour is still bad. He lunged and bit at the behavioural trainer the other day, and he actually broke her collarbone, with his teeth. (He is a big 16.2hh TB so he really throws his weight at you when he lunges at you ). He also has developed a sudden dislike to travelling, whether in a trailer or lorry. He will rear vertical, thrash around constantly and panic bless him, I had to have him sedated on our journey just to get him to the new yard safely. 

Obviously I have consulted my vet again, who has been out to see him. We arent sure what could be causing this behaviour. He cannot be rugged (it is actually impossible unless you are totally fearless/stupid!), I had to have him sedated the other day just so i could rug him as its dropped cold. He also will not be saddled (not that I am trying to saddle him when his behaviour is like this). This is not a new occurance but it has worsened. Sometimes he can just turn on you for no reason on the ground, sometimes it feels like you only have to look at him the wrong way! Some days he is better than others but it is getting to the point where general handling/care is proving difficult. 

Myself and my vet have agreed to trial him on four weeks of Mistoprolol incase of any hindgut pain/ulceration, to see if this improves his behaviour so i will be starting him on this sometime this week. I am also considering having him thermal imaged over his whole body to show up any areas of pain/imflammation. I am geninely considering his quality of life at this point, as clearly there is something going on somewhere. I fully believe he is in chronic pain somewhere, we just havent found it yet. Or perhaps some sort of brain problem? I dont know whether this is common in horses but i would be grateful of your advice. please be kind, this horse is my entire world, he has the best of everything and I am trying to rule out everything possible for him, i have spent thousands so far and insurance is pretty well used too!! I am heart broken, i just want to do the right thing by him, whatever that is. 

thank you so much


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## shortstuff99 (17 October 2022)

I know PSSM can cause aggression in horses that could be worth a test? 

Could be a brain tumour or tumour on a hormone regulator like the pituitary gland too. 

Could also be in pain physically somewhere. 

Unfortunately I don't think it is going to be an easy answer.


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## ester (17 October 2022)

Just wondering if he’s like it with other horses as well as you?


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## splashgirl45 (17 October 2022)

Sorry you are going through this and it sounds like you are doing all the right things .Have you looked at his food?  Some horses have bad reactions , maybe no feed just hay for a while might be worth trying. Also is he out with other horses or is he in a field alone, that could make him worse as well if he is on his own..Hope you manage to find an answer 🤞


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## Fransurrey (17 October 2022)

I know long term bute possibly is a bad idea for an ulcer prone horse, but have you had a bute or danilon trial? Sad to say that he sounds like he's in a awful lot of pain and I think you could end up throwing a lot of treatment at something unfixable. Tumour is certainly an option, as is PSSM, but management of PSSM can only do so much. As heartless as I may sound, I would pts and get a full PM done for peace of mind. He's already caused severe injury to more than one person.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

ester said:



			Just wondering if he’s like it with other horses as well as you?
		
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No, he is generally a friendly guy with other horses. He will have the odd moment with them but no more than a 'normal' horse.  It is people that he has the issues with (not just me! Anyone!)


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## Gloi (17 October 2022)

If this was a dog people would be horrified it hadn't been pts. The same applies here I'm afraid. Pain past or present is likely the cause but don't wait until he kills you or someone else, there's plenty of nice ex racehorses needing a home. Sorry.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

splashgirl45 said:



			Sorry you are going through this and it sounds like you are doing all the right things .Have you looked at his food?  Some horses have bad reactions , maybe no feed just hay for a while might be worth trying. Also is he out with other horses or is he in a field alone, that could make him worse as well if he is on his own..Hope you manage to find an answer 🤞
		
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Thankyou, I have tried him on individual turnout and turned out with others, but unfortunately it didnt seem to make any difference  

His food has been extensively looked into - I am a bit of a nutrition geek haha so have tried different things, i have tried ruling different ingredients out etc but nothing makes a difference xx


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Fransurrey said:



			I know long term bute possibly is a bad idea for an ulcer prone horse, but have you had a bute or danilon trial? Sad to say that he sounds like he's in a awful lot of pain and I think you could end up throwing a lot of treatment at something unfixable. Tumour is certainly an option, as is PSSM, but management of PSSM can only do so much. As heartless as I may sound, I would pts and get a full PM done for peace of mind. He's already caused severe injury to more than one person.
		
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Thank you, I was thinking about doing a Danilon trial to see if this makes a difference . i will discuss with my vet, thankyou. I am worried about his quality of life as i believe he is in pain somewhere, and i want to do the kindest thing for him. But for my own peace of mind I need to rule everything out before i can make an informed decision. thankyou again x x


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Gloi said:



			If this was a dog people would be horrified it hadn't been pts. The same applies here I'm afraid. Pain is likely the cause but don't wait until he kills you or someone else, there's plenty of nice ex racehorses needing a home. Sorry.
		
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This is why I am asking advice. I am working closely with my vet to rule out any pain, as i do believe this is the root cause, but obviously i will do the right thing for him, whatever that will be


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## Pearlsasinger (17 October 2022)

When you say that you have tried ruling feed ingredients out, have you actually stripped his diet back to nothing but grass? He sounds reminiscent of a TBx mare that I had, fortunately we realised that her diet was causing her problems, just before we were planning pts.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			When you say that you have tried ruling feed ingredients out, have you actually stripped his diet back to nothing but grass? He sounds reminiscent of a TBx mare that I had, fortunately we realised that her diet was causing her problems, just before we were planning pts.
		
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Kind of, although I did it with  grass and ad-lib hay too as we dont have an awful lot of grass. But this didnt seem to make a difference either


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## bonny (17 October 2022)

Gloi said:



			If this was a dog people would be horrified it hadn't been pts. The same applies here I'm afraid. Pain past or present is likely the cause but don't wait until he kills you or someone else, there's plenty of nice ex racehorses needing a home. Sorry.
		
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I agree with this I’m afraid, you have a horse that’s been grumpy for years that you can’t even rug let alone ride. I think looking at any other reasons for his behaviour is a waste of time and money and he could do you or someone else serious damage in the meantime.


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## poiuytrewq (17 October 2022)

Gloi said:



			If this was a dog people would be horrified it hadn't been pts. The same applies here I'm afraid. Pain past or present is likely the cause but don't wait until he kills you or someone else, there's plenty of nice ex racehorses needing a home. Sorry.
		
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I have to agree with this. Kudos to you for trying and by the sounds of it you really have tried to help this horse but I read the first part of your thread just thinking he’s a regular grouchy TB until I got to the breaking a collar bone with its teeth. That’s not normal. I’d never risk owning a horse like that if other people were likely to ever come into contact with it. Imagine if that had been the persons face. I’d pts in an instant.


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## millikins (17 October 2022)

If he was always grumpy in training, perhaps his behaviour has escalated as he is now in an environment where that is possible? Previously much more work, more confinement, always handled by people used to dealing with sharp, reactive horses on a daily basis?


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## marmalade76 (17 October 2022)

Gloi said:



			If this was a dog people would be horrified it hadn't been pts. The same applies here I'm afraid. Pain is likely the cause but don't wait until he kills you or someone else, there's plenty of nice ex racehorses needing a home. Sorry.
		
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Totally agree. I have just sold a handy with his feet, horse aggressive/food aggressive horse (to someone who used to loan him so knows his quirks and loves him anyway) because getting kicked is not something I'm prepared to put up with, life is too short. This horse still has loads of good points, though, if he'd been anything like yours, I would have cut my losses and called the hunt.

As said, there are plenty of lovely, sweet natured ex racehorses looking for homes, I've had three (two were freebies) and they were absolute darlings! Don't waste your time, money & safety with this one.


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## Gloi (17 October 2022)

People are such fragile creatures towards a large horse. We are really fortunate that 99+ percentage of them are kind and forgiving because once a horse has learnt that it is able to hurt and intimidate and is in the mind to do so it becomes a very dangerous animal. 
I have sadly met one or two in my time, fortunately not mine. One picked up the poor farrier's assistant by the shoulder at one time and threw him across the yard.


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## Goldenstar (17 October 2022)

I would definitely do a Danilon trial .


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

bonny said:



			I agree with this I’m afraid, you have a horse that’s been grumpy for years that you can’t even rug let alone ride. I think looking at any other reasons for his behaviour is a waste of time and money and he could do you or someone else serious damage in the meantime.
		
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I am struggling because he has always been such a good boy to ride, albeit hes never been in hard competitive work, but still he is the best ridden horse I have had, but always been difficult on the ground since the day I got him. 
I just want to do all i  can for him before i have to make that call, he means the world to me and i just want to do best by him, in whatever way


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

poiuytrewq said:



			I have to agree with this. Kudos to you for trying and by the sounds of it you really have tried to help this horse but I read the first part of your thread just thinking he’s a regular grouchy TB until I got to the breaking a collar bone with its teeth. That’s not normal. I’d never risk owning a horse like that if other people were likely to ever come into contact with it. Imagine if that had been the persons face. I’d pts in an instant.
		
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Thank you. Its breaking my heart because I have tried, and still am trying to do everything for him. It is difficult i think because some days he is a lot better than others so therefore i think 'oh, a glimmer of hope!' - but realistically, i know he is not right, and i am trying so hard to be realistic here and do what is best for him. But i am struggling, really struggling


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## bonny (17 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			I am struggling because he has always been such a good boy to ride, albeit hes never been in hard competitive work, but still he is the best ridden horse I have had, but always been difficult on the ground since the day I got him.
I just want to do all i  can for him before i have to make that call, he means the world to me and i just want to do best by him, in whatever way
		
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I get it’s hard but you can’t ride him anymore. Are there other people that come into contact with him ? It’s one thing to take risks yourself but totally unacceptable to risk others.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

millikins said:



			If he was always grumpy in training, perhaps his behaviour has escalated as he is now in an environment where that is possible? Previously much more work, more confinement, always handled by people used to dealing with sharp, reactive horses on a daily basis?
		
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I am used to dealing with sharp horses (my previous horse was sharp) but not aggressive. Its a totally different ball game when you cant be in their space, safely. 
But yes i  believe he was always like this for quite some time at his last yard whilst in training


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

bonny said:



			I get it’s hard but you can’t ride him anymore. Are there other people that come into contact with him ? It’s one thing to take risks yourself but totally unacceptable to risk others.
		
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No, I dont let anybody else handle him. I would never put anyone else at risk. (I know people will say I put a behavioural trainer at risk but actually i didnt, i fully disclosed everything and advised her not to do something, which she still did, and she admits this was an error of judgement) - but no body else handles him apart from me, twice daily


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			I would definitely do a Danilon trial .
		
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Thank you i will definitely speak to my vet about this asap


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## Goldenstar (17 October 2022)

If he’s no different then you can’t rule out pain if he is then you know he’s in significant chronic discomfort .
What you would then you need to think about what you do next very carefully .


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

marmalade76 said:



			Totally agree. I have just sold a handy with his feet, horse aggressive/food aggressive horse (to someone who used to loan him so knows his quirks and loves him anyway) because getting kicked is not something I'm prepared to put up with, life is too short. This horse still has loads of good points, though, if he'd been anything like yours, I would have cut my losses and called the hunt.

As said, there are plenty of lovely, sweet natured ex racehorses looking for homes, I've had three (two were freebies) and they were absolute darlings! Don't waste your time, money & safety with this one.
		
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I would never pass him on, because I can only imagine what would happen to him and I would never put him through that, and also i would not risk someone elses safety. 
If i cannot find any pain/have any improvement in the near future, i will do the kindest thing for him and let him go peacefully with my vet. I am just trying to do everything I can, i understand the risks i am taking, i dont let anyone else handle him, but i really am running out of options so that is why i have posted on here, as i do know what the last option is i am afraid and i am really struggling to get my head around it. I think if i knew he was in pain, which i do believe he is, it would make the decision a lot clearer in my mind.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			If he’s no different then you can’t rule out pain if he is then you know he’s in significant chronic discomfort .
What you would then you need to think about what you do next very carefully .
		
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Thank you , its so difficult as i think the absolute world of him, we have had some fun times together (before it got this bad) but i am trying my best to be realistic. thank you


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## Pearlsasinger (17 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Kind of, although I did it with  grass and ad-lib hay too as we dont have an awful lot of grass. But this didnt seem to make a difference either 

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Oh yes, I would have included hay too. Some horses are allergic to grass though.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Oh yes, I would have included hay too. Some horses are allergic to grass though.
		
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Thank you, it didnt seem to make a difference unfortunately


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## bonny (17 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			I would never pass him on, because I can only imagine what would happen to him and I would never put him through that, and also i would not risk someone elses safety.
If i cannot find any pain/have any improvement in the near future, i will do the kindest thing for him and let him go peacefully with my vet. I am just trying to do everything I can, i understand the risks i am taking, i dont let anyone else handle him, but i really am running out of options so that is why i have posted on here, as i do know what the last option is i am afraid and i am really struggling to get my head around it. I think if i knew he was in pain, which i do believe he is, it would make the decision a lot clearer in my mind.
		
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As a last resort could you try someone who is used to dealing with racehorses and see what they think ? Understandably it sounds as if you are getting nervous around him which is probably not helping the situation.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

bonny said:



			As a last resort could you try someone who is used to dealing with racehorses and see what they think ? Understandably it sounds as if you are getting nervous around him which is probably not helping the situation.
		
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I have tried that too, and unfortunately he is just the same with everyone, which is what makes me think it is pain. 
It is almost safer for me to handle him, I know the warning signs, I know when I am pushing my luck/asking too much, but other people don't and thats how the trainer got bitten the other day, because she didnt listen to me when I said thats enough


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## Goldenstar (17 October 2022)

I did have a horse whose behaviour while not as extreme as yours was similar I threw everything at it spent 30k in end I put him down he had tumours they found them when they where preparing him for the hounds .


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## Regandal (17 October 2022)

What an awful situation. If you do a Danilon trial, cover him with a PPI, eg omeprazole, to avoid stomach irritation.  Is there any history of injuries whilst in training?  Maybe a bad fall?


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			I did have a horse whose behaviour while not as extreme as yours was similar I threw everything at it spent 30k in end I put him down he had tumours they found them when they where preparing him for the hounds .
		
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Oh no, do you mean brain tumours? x


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## bonny (17 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Oh no, do you mean brain tumours? x
		
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I very much doubt he’s had tumours for years, how old is he ? Does he look well ?


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Regandal said:



			What an awful situation. If you do a Danilon trial, cover him with a PPI, eg omeprazole, to avoid stomach irritation.  Is there any history of injuries whilst in training?  Maybe a bad fall?
		
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Thank you, I'm just talking to my vet now about a danilon trial. She has agreed so will trial that straight away, which should give me a relatively straight forward answer in one way or another. 

He had no leg injuries whilst in training, he retired sound but I am unsure of any falls, the staff at the yard never said anything when I asked but tbh I am not sure they've been totally honest throughout!


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

bonny said:



			I very much doubt he’s had tumours for years, how old is he ? Does he look well ?
		
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No I am not saying he has, I was just asking the poster about her experience. The behaviour has only become dangerous over the past 12 months, it was manageable before. He is 7 yrs old, looks very well.


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## bonny (17 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Thank you, I'm just talking to my vet now about a danilon trial. She has agreed so will trial that straight away, which should give me a relatively straight forward answer in one way or another.

He had no leg injuries whilst in training, he retired sound but I am unsure of any falls, the staff at the yard never said anything when I asked but tbh I am not sure they've been totally honest throughout!
		
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Have you looked up his racing record ? What kind of racing did he do ?


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## Annagain (17 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			No, I dont let anybody else handle him. I would never put anyone else at risk. (I know people will say I put a behavioural trainer at risk but actually i didnt, i fully disclosed everything and advised her not to do something, which she still did, and she admits this was an error of judgement) - but no body else handles him apart from me, twice daily
		
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This is good but you need a back-up plan in case you're ill or he hurts you too and you can't deal with him, what would happen then? I must admit, I'd be considering calling it a day with him, not just because he could be a danger but because it has to be a reaction to some sort of pain or remembered pain so he's probably suffering too. Nobody is enjoying this situation, him included. I'd go for a Danilon trial and if that makes no difference, call it a day.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

bonny said:



			Have you looked up his racing record ? What kind of racing did he do ?
		
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Yeah, I know his full history, he was NH.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Annagain said:



			This is good but you need a back-up plan in case you're ill or he hurts you too and you can't deal with him, what would happen then? I must admit, I'd be considering calling it a day with him, not just because he could be a danger but because it has to be a reaction to some sort of pain or remembered pain so he's probably suffering too. I'd go for a Danilon trial and if that makes no difference, call it a day.
		
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Thank you so much, this is what I am thinking at the moment. 
I am finding it incredibly hard, I've never had a horse pts before. So i really am beating myself up, but if he is suffering one way or another, then i want and need to do the right thing and let him go peacefully.


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## splashgirl45 (17 October 2022)

I would just like to say that I commend you for doing so much .  We had a pony at the yard many years ago who was quite dangerous in the stable, only certain people were allowed to handle him as he bit so badly.    We will never know why he behaved like this but one of the girls on the yard bought him and kept him out 24/7 and he never showed any aggression again.  Have you tried leaving him out and not putting him in a stable ever?


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## paddy555 (17 October 2022)

a bute trial may give some info.  I would try 2 am and 2 pm the first day and 2 am the second day. (with your vet's agreement) and leave him alone as much a possible ie don't put him into a situation where he can react to you and try and see if there is improvement.
I would sedate if needed and get a heavy rug something like 400g on him and if you can't change or adjust it so be it just leave it. If he is not already having it I would give 10000iu vit e daily. Just to have some idea if he has muscle pain or vit e deficiency. Couple of weeks of that may give more info either good or bad. 

You don't say anywhere, and perhaps you don't with to get that close to find out  but what are the muscles like over his hindquarters, soft or hard as a board.

The other thing I would consider is if he actually is in pain. You said you were used to sharp horses but not aggressive ones. 

Clearly he was "sharp" when he came then he got aggressive with ulcer pain and had a good reason for it. 
Then the pain went but did he mentally think by that stage he was starting to get the upper hand. He keeps pushing and realises he can keep pushing a little more especially with his size. 

I took on a horse like  that, couldn't touch him from the shoulder back and you definitely didn't go there unless you wanted to get eaten. Wouldn't dare touch his sides. Obvious was pain, ulcers, HGA or something. Real problem was mentally he was so mad, furious and annoyed with his previous owner and the way he had been kept and it took him a long time to realise things had changed for him. (he had in fact been well kept  by horse standards but he was such a highly strung lad it was not suitable for him) 
Not saying it is you or your home but that this is mental, he doesn't realise he is not far from PTS and he is quite happy with his behaviour towards you.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

splashgirl45 said:



			I would just like to say that I commend you for doing so much .  We had a pony at the yard many years ago who was quite dangerous in the stable, only certain people were allowed to handle him as he bit so badly.    We will never know why he behaved like this but one of the girls on the yard bought him and kept him out 24/7 and he never showed any aggression again.  Have you tried leaving him out and not putting him in a stable ever?
		
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Thank you so much that really means a lot. He lives out 24/7 for as much as the year as possible, and then is just stabled at night time for a few months over the winter. His behaviour is the same whether he is turned out 24/7 or stabled during the night time. thankyou xx


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			a bute trial may give some info.  I would try 2 am and 2 pm the first day and 2 am the second day. (with your vet's agreement) and leave him alone as much a possible ie don't put him into a situation where he can react to you and try and see if there is improvement.
I would sedate if needed and get a heavy rug something like 400g on him and if you can't change or adjust it so be it just leave it. If he is not already having it I would give 10000iu vit e daily. Just to have some idea if he has muscle pain or vit e deficiency. Couple of weeks of that may give more info either good or bad.

You don't say anywhere, and perhaps you don't with to get that close to find out  but what are the muscles like over his hindquarters, soft or hard as a board.

The other thing I would consider is if he actually is in pain. You said you were used to sharp horses but not aggressive ones.

Clearly he was "sharp" when he came then he got aggressive with ulcer pain and had a good reason for it.
Then the pain went but did he mentally think by that stage he was starting to get the upper hand. He keeps pushing and realises he can keep pushing a little more especially with his size.

I took on a horse like  that, couldn't touch him from the shoulder back and you definitely didn't go there unless you wanted to get eaten. Wouldn't dare touch his sides. Obvious was pain, ulcers, HGA or something. Real problem was mentally he was so mad, furious and annoyed with his previous owner and the way he had been kept and it took him a long time to realise things had changed for him. (he had in fact been well kept  by horse standards but he was such a highly strung lad it was not suitable for him)
Not saying it is you or your home but that this is mental, he doesn't realise he is not far from PTS and he is quite happy with his behaviour towards you.
		
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Thank you, unfortunately I cannot put him in a 400g heavy rug, he would cook and it would be unfair, he isnt a 'cold' horse and he has been plenty warm enough in 100g over winter before now, he does not get clipped as obviously doesnt get ridden! He is in a 50g at the minute (I had him sedated so i could get it on ) and he is plenty warm enough in that. Any more and he would be sweating. 

Thank you i will defnintely consider the vit E. His muslces seem generally soft and the physio/vets never had any concerns with that either .

There probably is a case of this, but tbh i am not sure how to resolve this when you cannot get in his space to safely work with him? sometimes standing too close to him is enough to trigger the aggression. And he isnt just like it with me, it is anyone . 

thank you xxx


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## Annagain (17 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Thank you so much, this is what I am thinking at the moment.
I am finding it incredibly hard, I've never had a horse pts before. So i really am beating myself up, but if he is suffering one way or another, then i want and need to do the right thing and let him go peacefully.
		
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We've been through it recently with my old share horse for very different reasons - he was never aggressive but since retiring 18 months ago seemed to be increasingly depressed. Even when in full work he didn't enjoy winter and he didn't go through winter retirement brilliantly last year (whereas my old boy has thrived since retiring) so his owner decided not to put him through this winter. It's never an easy decision and even harder when they are ostensibly healthy but mental anguish is just as valid a reason as physical to make that call.  She said that although she's really sad, she mainly feels relieved to know he's not going to get any worse over the winter (I'm just sad about it at the moment but hopefully I can get to the same place soon.) so I imagine relief would come into it for you too if you get that far.


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## Carlosmum (17 October 2022)

Having followed the other posts on here recently about PTS.  I would perhaps go down that route.  It sounds as though he is unhappy, probably in pain.  A horse you cant handle is dangerous to you and others.  I recently said goodbye to my pony, partly due to health reasons but also because of behavioural issues.  I came off him too many times for comfort at my age and after battling for 10 years with his 'issues' I called time.  I am so relieved I did it, it was the right decision for me, even if I do feel like I let him, down ( a bit) for not carrying on.  What ever you decide PTS is never wrong IMO.


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## ester (17 October 2022)

How much of a pain work up has he actually had? Or has it been limited due to his behaviour.
I have to say my first response was Id PTS because he sounds so very unhappy, whatever the reason. But I get that you’d prefer more answers first.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Annagain said:



			We've been through it recently with my old share horse for very different reasons - he was never aggressive but since retiring 18 months ago seemed to be increasingly depressed. Even when in full work he didn't enjoy winter and he didn't go through winter retirement brilliantly last year (whereas my old boy has thrived since retiring) so his owner decided not to put him through this winter. It's never an easy decision and even harder when they are ostensibly healthy but mental anguish is just as valid a reason as physical to make that call.  She said that although she's really sad, she mainly feels relieved to know he's not going to get any worse over the winter (I'm just sad about it at the moment but hopefully I can get to the same place soon.) so I imagine relief would come into it for you too if you get that far.
		
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thank you so much, I am sorry to hear about your boy  xx


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Carlosmum said:



			Having followed the other posts on here recently about PTS.  I would perhaps go done that route.  It sounds as though he is unhappy, probably in pain.  A horse you cant handle is dangerous to you and others.  I recently said goodbye to my pony, partly due to health reasons but also because of behavioural issues.  I came off him too many times for comfort at my age and after battling for 10 years with his 'issues' I called time.  I am so relieved I did it, it was the right decision for me, even if I do feel like I let hi, down ( a nit) for not carrying on.  What ever you decide PTS is never wrong IMO.
		
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thank you so much. it is so difficult isnt it x


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## Tiddlypom (17 October 2022)

If ulcers are involved, be prepared for bute or Danilon to make him much worse, as they will be aggravated.

My mare went from grumpy to dangerous on a short Danilon trial, which was one of the observations that led on to her subsequent accurate diagnosis of hind gut issues.

Now that her hind gut issues are fairly well managed, she can have short courses of Danilon without ill effect.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

ester said:



			How much of a pain work up has he actually had?
		
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Scoped 3 times, ulcers treated originally but never returned, back-xrays, stifle x-rays and ultrasounded (all fine), extensive physio sessions with fantastic physiotherapist , different vets out to see him but never any general unsoundness (i.e. he is sound in walk trot canter) - I have even tried the holistic route as a stab in the dark (I dont particularly believe in it but i had nothing to lose by trying it, but that made no difference either ) 

Honestly i feel i am running out of options 
HIs feet are fine, he has good feet for a TB


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## bonny (17 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Thank you, unfortunately I cannot put him in a 400g heavy rug, he would cook and it would be unfair, he isnt a 'cold' horse and he has been plenty warm enough in 100g over winter before now, he does not get clipped as obviously doesnt get ridden! He is in a 50g at the minute (I had him sedated so i could get it on ) and he is plenty warm enough in that. Any more and he would be sweating.

Thank you i will defnintely consider the vit E. His muslces seem generally soft and the physio/vets never had any concerns with that either .

There probably is a case of this, but tbh i am not sure how to resolve this when you cannot get in his space to safely work with him? sometimes standing too close to him is enough to trigger the aggression. And he isnt just like it with me, it is anyone .

thank you xxx
		
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If he’s so bad that no one can even stand next to him a bute trial is really not going to make much of a difference even if he is in pain. I think you should either pts now or find someone who is used to dealing with difficult horses to have him for a while and see if they can make a difference.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			If ulcers are involved, be prepared for bute or Danilon to make him much worse, as they will be aggravated.

My mare went from grumpy to dangerous on a short Danilon trial, which was one of the observations that led on to her subsequent accurate diagnosis of hind gut issues.
		
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thank you, I am doing it as a last resort, his ulcers have never returned but i am considering hind gut issues too (also discussing with my vet)  x


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

bonny said:



			If he’s so bad that no one can even stand next to him a bute trial is really not going to make much of a difference even if he is in pain. I think you should either pts now or find someone who is used to dealing with difficult horses to have him for a while and see if they can make a difference.
		
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I am not prepared to put someone else at risk, plus the fact he wont travel anymore (another reason i think he is in pain as he has always been fab to travel). 
I didnt say no one can stand next to him ever, i just said sometimes even standing too close to him can trigger the aggressive behaviour, if he is in that 'mood'. As i have said, I have only ever dealt with difficult horses, i like a challenge, and never had an issue. this isnt difficult, this is aggressive, and he is the same with anybody.


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## SEL (17 October 2022)

Have the vets looked at his hormone levels? I was on livery with a teenage gelding who over the course of a year started to behave like an aggressive stallion. Vet put him on regumate (can't remember for how long) & he lived for years after with no more issues.

My now 12 yo mare came to me as a dangerous 4yo heading to the hunt. She still has her moments but her behaviour when she was young was due to her early years handling and a considerable amount of pain (ulcers, PSSM). I know what it's like to own a horse you dare not let anyone else near. I also put one down earlier this year who behaviour around humans was unpredictable and dangerous. It's a tough call and you have my sympathy


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

SEL said:



			Have the vets looked at his hormone levels? I was on livery with a teenage gelding who over the course of a year started to behave like an aggressive stallion. Vet put him on regumate (can't remember for how long) & he lived for years after with no more issues.

My now 12 yo mare came to me as a dangerous 4yo heading to the hunt. She still has her moments but her behaviour when she was young was due to her early years handling and a considerable amount of pain (ulcers, PSSM). I know what it's like to own a horse you dare not let anyone else near. I also put one down earlier this year who behaviour around humans was unpredictable and dangerous. It's a tough call and you have my sympathy
		
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Thank you so much xx there has been no mention of hormone levels with my vet but i will certainly mention it x thankyou


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## Squidge_94 (17 October 2022)

Completely off the bat but have you tried popping a grazing muzzle on securely when handling him? Put a treat or 2 in the bottom when you put it on so then he associates it with something good. Then at least you dont have to worry about him taking a chunk out of you whilst you try to work out what's wrong with him and you can still reward him for good behaviour through the little hole at the bottom.
I know many will disagree but it's a dangerous behaviour and a grazing muzzle isn't exactly cruel.
I've seen this done before on a very, very dangerous horse. Made life a bit easier for the owner and the vet certainly appreciated it whilst they were sorting the poor mares issues!


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## Mrs. Jingle (17 October 2022)

My heart goes out to you, you could be describing my mare's behaviour a couple of years back now. But in her case, although she had always been a feisty typical mare with her own opinion she was never remotely dangerous,  her sudden change in behaviour was  literally overnight scaled up to totally unpredictable and downright lethal.

I walked across the field and stood beside her to put her headcollar on, she looked rather odd as I approached her, almost like she was in a trance and didn't even see me walking towards her . As I reached up to put it on, she reared up directly at me, flailing her hooves at me with ears pinned back, squealed and then flew off at a flat out gallop kicking out at me as she went.

Long story short and many thousands of euro and time with the vet later and quite sometime with lulls of her normal self and then very sudden very dangerous attacks we got to the bottom of it all.  My vet would not even risk travelling her to the horsepital he regarded her as so dangerous even if he sedated her. He was not happy with me handling her and we were very close to PTS as every test under the sun was coming back either something not quite right or totally normal. It did seems as though brain tumour was the only possible cause left.

Fortunately just before the decision was made he went to a conference in the UK and spoke to some specialists and showed them all her results and what he had tried so far. It transpired she had in fact at some point picked up Lymes disease, and her symptoms did occur in a few equine cases that were not readily recognised at initial presentation or initial bloods. So she was treated, a long and hard treatment but she very slowly improved, her bloods were also improving, although still now not great at times.  But she is very well in herself 4 years later happily retired in her field with her donkeys.

She does still have the odd trance like behaviour, but much more low key and we just leave her alone until she seems to be back with us, she has never been aggressive to us since. But the only people I allow to handle her is my vet, my farrier and my son, just in case. Even if I could ride I dont think I would risk riding her again, apart from now being a little stiff from time to time, my vet agrees that a sudden trance or explosion out on the road can't be ruled out and would be very risky for all concerned.

I do hope you can find an answer, but if not I would not hesitate to PTS, if Dolly's behaviour had not improved dramatically after the treatment for Lymes that was to be the outcome for everyone's safety and her very obvious distress.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Squidge_94 said:



			Completely off the bat but have you tried popping a grazing muzzle on securely when handling him? Put a treat or 2 in the bottom when you put it on so then he associates it with something good. Then at least you dont have to worry about him taking a chunk out of you whilst you try to work out what's wrong with him and you can still reward him for good behaviour through the little hole at the bottom.
I know many will disagree but it's a dangerous behaviour and a grazing muzzle isn't exactly cruel.
I've seen this done before on a very, very dangerous horse. Made life a bit easier for the owner and the vet certainly appreciated it whilst they were sorting the poor mares issues!
		
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Thank you, i have considered this, but to be honest, although it would prevent him biting, he could still lunge at me and knock me over again  and i think it would stress him out/piss him off more  xx


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## motherof2beasts! (17 October 2022)

I would consider a second opinion from another vet, usually a bute trial is one of the first steps, can’t believe they haven’t considered it after all this time.

With mine a bute trial was the first step and he improved a lot after 2 days of bute meaning pain related , then went on with full investigations. He had a range of chronic conditions which were degenerative . If no different on bute then it is either behavioural or neurological , neither of which you can do much more than you have about 

what exactly do you feed him?


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Mrs Jingle said:



			My heart goes out to you, you could be describing my mare's behaviour a couple of years back now. But in her case, although she had always been a feisty typical mare with her own opinion she was never remotely dangerous,  her sudden change in behaviour was  literally overnight scaled up to totally unpredictable and downright lethal.

I walked across the field and stood beside her to put her headcollar on, she looked rather odd as I approached her, almost like she was in a trance and didn't even see me walking towards her . As I reached up to put it on, she reared up directly at me, flailing her hooves at me with ears pinned back, squealed and then flew off at a flat out gallop kicking out at me as she went.

Long story short and many thousands of euro and time with the vet later and quite sometime with lulls of her normal self and then very sudden very dangerous attacks we got to the bottom of it all.  My vet would not even risk travelling her to the horsepital he regarded her as so dangerous even if he sedated her. He was not happy with me handling her and we were very close to PTS as every test under the sun was coming back either something not quite right or totally normal. It did seems as though brain tumour was the only possible cause left.

Fortunately just before the decision was made he went to a conference in the UK and spoke to some specialists and showed them all her results and what he had tried so far. It transpired she had in fact at some point picked up Lymes disease, and her symptoms did occur in a few equine cases that were not readily recognised at initial presentation or initial bloods. So she was treated, a long and hard treatment but she very slowly improved, her bloods were also improving, although still now not great at times.  But she is very well in herself 4 years later happily retired in her field with her donkeys.

She does still have the odd trance like behaviour, but much more low key and we just leave her alone until she seems to be back with us, she has never been aggressive to us since. But the only people I allow to handle her is my vet, my farrier and my son, just in case. Even if I could ride I dont think I would risk riding her again, apart from now being a little stiff from time to time, my vet agrees that a sudden trance or explosion out on the road can't be ruled out and would be very risky for all concerned.

I do hope you can find an answer, but if not I would not hesitate to PTS, if Dolly's behaviour had not improved dramatically after the treatment for Lymes that was to be the outcome for everyone's safety and her very obvious distress.
		
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Gosh, that is amazing you managed to find the cause!! Did she look well throughout the time when she had lymes disease? 

thankyou so much, I really am heartbroken as he is my best friend, and i really do enjoy his company when he is not being aggressive, he has such a character and thats what is making this harder, but i am trying to be sensible and if he is suffering then i know what the right thing to do is xx


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

motherof2beasts! said:



			I would consider a second opinion from another vet, usually a bute trial is one of the first steps, can’t believe they haven’t considered it after all this time.

With mine a bute trial was the first step and he improved a lot after 2 days of bute meaning pain related , then went on with full investigations. He had a range of chronic conditions which were degenerative . If no different on bute then it is either behavioural or neurological , neither of which you can do much more than you have about 

what exactly do you feed him?
		
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Thank you , he has been under a couple of different vets throughout this -  i was thinking of whether this could be neurological but never had experience of this before so not really sure what is is! 
He is a good doer so is literally just on a good quality fibre diet ! Luckily he doesnt need a load of hard feed piling into him  xx


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## Mrs. Jingle (17 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Gosh, that is amazing you managed to find the cause!! Did she look well throughout the time when she had lymes disease?
		
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Yes she did look pretty much her normal self initially, although she is a sweet itch horse so often irritable in the summer time with the midges so very possibly I may have missed early signs of her behaviour becoming unusually unacceptable. I had thought her a bit lazy and grumpy out riding which is very out of character now I look back. She did however look on and off mildly lame from time to time during the course of her illness and slowly became very dull in herself and lack lustre if you know what I mean, very depressed almost. 

She looks fantastic now on all her herbs and supplements, although her joints are still affected from time to time but I will settle for that. She gave me a good few years of great fun riding and I am very fortunate to be able to have retired her and love just having her around still. I do understand that is not possible for everyone to do though.

It is more common than most people seem to realise. But most vets for some reason seem to feel it isn't an issue in Ireland and will only consider it reluctantly when all else has failed. I was contacted last year by someone a few hours from me who's horse had also eventually been diagnosed with Lyme's and was also showing very aggressive behaviour. Unfortunately that eventual outcome was not as fortunate as we had.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Mrs Jingle said:



			Yes she did look pretty much her normal self initially, although she is a sweet itch horse so often irritable in the summer time with the midges so very possibly I may have missed early signs of her behaviour becoming unusually unacceptable. I had thought her a bit lazy and grumpy out riding which is very out of character now I look back. She did however look on and off mildly lame from time to time during the course of her illness and slowly became very dull in herself and lack lustre if you know what I mean, very depressed almost.

She looks fantastic now on all her herbs and supplements, although her joints are still affected from time to time but I will settle for that. She gave me a good few years of great fun riding and I am very fortunate to be able to have retired her and love just having her around still. I do understand that is not possible for everyone to do though.

It is more common than most people seem to realise. But most vets for some reason seem to feel it isn't an issue in Ireland and will only consider it reluctantly when all else has failed. I was contacted last year by someone a few hours from me who's horse had also eventually been diagnosed with Lyme's and was also showing very aggressive behaviour. Unfortunately that eventual outcome was not as fortunate as we had.
		
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That is really interesting! I am glad your girl pulled through xx


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## motherof2beasts! (17 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Thank you , he has been under a couple of different vets throughout this -  i was thinking of whether this could be neurological but never had experience of this before so not really sure what is is!
He is a good doer so is literally just on a good quality fibre diet ! Luckily he doesnt need a load of hard feed piling into him  xx
		
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Once you have bute trialled you’ll know if he’s in pain then it could only really be behavioural or neurological. I think if that’s the case then it’s probably kindest to PTS as you can’t fix neurological. What does he do when others go into the field to get their horses?


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

motherof2beasts! said:



			Once you have bute trialled you’ll know if he’s in pain then it could only really be behavioural or neurological. I think if that’s the case then it’s probably kindest to PTS as you can’t fix neurological. What does he do when others go into the field to get their horses?
		
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Thank you, he is fine with things like that x


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## Phoenix/Max (17 October 2022)

Hi, I'm so sorry you are going through this, and thank you so much for caring for your horse.  It definately sounds as if there is a pain factor which is causing the aggression, it sounds like he has been screaming for a long period of time, even before you got him and he now feels that he is able to express himself more with you.  There are a couple of things that do come to mind, and as you mentioned about his rug, have you looked at or discussed a possible issue with the wither area, spine area at the base of his neck, problems in this area can go undetected, but can still be very painful.  He may have fallen whilst racing or even in the field.  Having a thermal imaging will help as this will pinpoint any hot spots, which may be the source.  I would certainly talk to your vet about doing a bute or danilon trial, but hit it hard.  If it is pain related you will find out pretty quickly.  Well done for detecting the ulcers.
I would like to say Thank You for caring.


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## Hackback (17 October 2022)

bonny said:



			I very much doubt he’s had tumours for years, how old is he ? Does he look well ?
		
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A friend had a horse who had been 'difficult' all his life interspersed with totally random brief episodes like the OP describes. After all sorts of investigations finding nothing they eventually went for a full body MRI when he was found to have bone tumours all over his body. He must have had them for years - and yes he looked fab - and been in a considerable amount of pain. 

Not saying that's what's wrong with your horse OP, it could be one or more of many things. It's just so hard when you can't find a reason. Good luck.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Phoenix/Max said:



			Hi, I'm so sorry you are going through this, and thank you so much for caring for your horse.  It definately sounds as if there is a pain factor which is causing the aggression, it sounds like he has been screaming for a long period of time, even before you got him and he now feels that he is able to express himself more with you.  There are a couple of things that do come to mind, and as you mentioned about his rug, have you looked at or discussed a possible issue with the wither area, spine area at the base of his neck, problems in this area can go undetected, but can still be very painful.  He may have fallen whilst racing or even in the field.  Having a thermal imaging will help as this will pinpoint any hot spots, which may be the source.  I would certainly talk to your vet about doing a bute or danilon trial, but hit it hard.  If it is pain related you will find out pretty quickly.  Well done for detecting the ulcers.
I would like to say Thank You for caring.
		
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Thank you so much for being so lovely xxx I will discuss it all with my vet thank you x


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Hackback said:



			A friend had a horse who had been 'difficult' all his life interspersed with totally random brief episodes like the OP describes. After all sorts of investigations finding nothing they eventually went for a full body MRI when he was found to have bone tumours all over his body. He must have had them for years - and yes he looked fab - and been in a considerable amount of pain.

Not saying that's what's wrong with your horse OP, it could be one or more of many things. It's just so hard when you can't find a reason. Good luck.
		
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Oh no, bless him 

thank you so much xx


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## ycbm (17 October 2022)

motherof2beasts! said:



			Once you have bute trialled you’ll know if he’s in pain then it could only really be behavioural or neurological. I think if that’s the case then it’s probably kindest to PTS as you can’t fix neurological. What does he do when others go into the field to get their horses?
		
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A bute trial can rule in pain,  if it works,  but it doesn't rule out pain if it doesn't work.  Back pain in particular doesn't always,  I'm told,  respond to bute.
.


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## Ali27 (17 October 2022)

Oh god! Your poor horse and poor you! Just so lucky that he has got you to hopefully help get him sorted and not someone who just thinks he is being naughty. Definitely sounds pain related and I hope you can get to the bottom of it! 🥰
Might be worth posting on the PSSM Facebook page and seeing if there are any flags in his breeding as I know PSSM 2 can be found in TBs.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Ali27 said:



			Oh god! Your poor horse and poor you! Just so lucky that he has got you to hopefully help get him sorted and not someone who just thinks he is being naughty. Definitely sounds pain related and I hope you can get to the bottom of it! 🥰
Might be worth posting on the PSSM Facebook page and seeing if there are any flags in his breeding as I know PSSM 2 can be found in TBs.
		
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Thank you so much x


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## Quigleyandme (17 October 2022)

I really feel for you OP. You are clearly a very dedicated owner trying to do your very best to get to the bottom of your horse’s issues and I really admire you for that. This is a bit woo woo but have you considered an animal communicator? Some perfectly sensible, rational and not the least bit naive people have told me of remarkable transformations which they can’t otherwise explain.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Quigleyandme said:



			I really feel for you OP. You are clearly a very dedicated owner trying to do your very best to get to the bottom of your horse’s issues and I really admire you for that. This is a bit woo woo but have you considered an animal communicator? Some perfectly sensible, rational and not the least bit naive people have told me of remarkable transformations which they can’t otherwise explain.
		
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thank you so much that really means a lot! I have tried an animal communicator who did say some things which make sense, however some of it are things i have ruled out! Thank you very much though


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## MissTyc (17 October 2022)

I really feel for you. My friend had one who behaved similar. Thankfully only 14.2hh which was dangerous enough. He turned out to have  ECVM which I believe they can now test for in live animals? Back then it was only identifiable post-mortem. Just another thought, sorry it's not a cheerful one. Sometimes answers are important. But I will say my friend wished she'd had hers put down a year earlier as his last year was not a happy one. Full of tests and bute trials, false hopes, and sadness


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## PeterNatt (17 October 2022)

happyhorse978.  I am so sorry to read your sad post about your horse.  My suggestion would be to send him to a specialist equine hospital such as Rossdales in Newmarket and see if they can come up with a diagnosis as ito what is causing his aggresive behaviour.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

MissTyc said:



			I really feel for you. My friend had one who behaved similar. Thankfully only 14.2hh which was dangerous enough. He turned out to have  ECVM which I believe they can now test for in live animals? Back then it was only identifiable post-mortem. Just another thought, sorry it's not a cheerful one. Sometimes answers are important. But I will say my friend wished she'd had hers put down a year earlier as his last year was not a happy one. Full of tests and bute trials, false hopes, and sadness 

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Thank you so much. I feel awful for him having to go through different investigations etc , I just want him to be happy, but I just feel he is in significant pain somewhere so may have to end his suffering which will kill me but if it’s the right thing for him then that’s all that matters xx


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

PeterNatt said:



			happyhorse978.  I am so sorry to read your sad post about your horse.  My suggestion would be to send him to a specialist equine hospital such as Rossdales in Newmarket and see if they can come up with a diagnosis as ito what is causing his aggresive behaviour.
		
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Thank you , unfortunately he’s taken a sudden dislike to travelling and will rear vertical and smash around in the box , so there’s no way I could get him all the way to rossdales etc otherwise I would. He had to be sedated for a 15 min journey when we moved yards and that was bad enough. Another reason which makes me feel like this is pain based as he was always good to travel. Thankyou though x


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## ycbm (17 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			I would never pass him on, because I can only imagine what would happen to him and I would never put him through that, and also i would not risk someone elses safety.
If i cannot find any pain/have any improvement in the near future, i will do the kindest thing for him and let him go peacefully with my vet. I am just trying to do everything I can, i understand the risks i am taking, i dont let anyone else handle him, but i really am running out of options so that is why i have posted on here, as i do know what the last option is i am afraid and i am really struggling to get my head around it. I think if i knew he was in pain, which i do believe he is, it would make the decision a lot clearer in my mind.
		
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I think that a horse which you have to sedate to get a rug on is in such significant physical pain or mental trauma that if you can't find a reason/relief very soon,  this will be the right option, especially as he can't now travel for the investigations this would probably need to get to the bottom of it.

It's a dreadful situation to be in,  I have been there once with a horse with head fractures,  who might or might not have come right if I had waited, but I could not put him through any more pain while we waited to find out.

If the bute trial modifies his behaviour at all,  I would get ECVM C6/7 x rays to start with, as described above,  it's extremely common in TBs. If neither bute nor hind gut medication does anything,  I'm so sorry but I'd call it a day for his sake as further investigations are going to prolong his pain and, I suspect, with little hope of ever finding a permanent solution for it.

Again,  this is a terrible situation to be in, you clearly love this horse,   I really feel for you.
.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			I think that a horse which you have to sedate to get a rug on is in such significant physical pain or mental trauma that if you can't find a reason/relief very soon,  this will be the right option, especially as he can't now travel for the investigations this would probably need to get to the bottom of it.

It's a dreadful situation to be in,  I have been there once with a horse with head fractures,  who might or might not have come right if I had waited, but I could not put him through any more pain while we waited to find out.

If the bute trial modifies his behaviour at all,  I would get ECVM C6/7 x rays to start with, as described above,  it's extremely common in TBs. If neither bute nor hind gut medication does anything,  I'm so sorry but I'd call it a day for his sake as further investigations are going to prolong his pain and, I suspect, with little hope of ever finding a permanent solution for it.

Again,  this is a terrible situation to be in, you clearly love this horse,   I really feel for you.
.
		
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Thankyou so much that is really helpful xx


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## Melody Grey (17 October 2022)

I had a similar situation a few years back and PTS my aggressive mare. Knowing what I know now, I’d treat for hindgut ulcers and consider PSSM. I’m not sure whether you’re in a position to engage in a lameness work up or have done before, but I’d suggest that if you manage to get him into a more amenable mindset you x- ray from head to tail. I had to draw the line with mine, I was worn out and out of cash but that’s where I’d go if I had my time with her again. Good luck OP, it’s so hard. X


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Melody Grey said:



			I had a similar situation a few years back and PTS my aggressive mare. Knowing what I know now, I’d treat for hindgut ulcers and consider PSSM. I’m not sure whether you’re in a position to engage in a lameness work up or have done before, but I’d suggest that if you manage to get him into a more amenable mindset you x- ray from head to tail. I had to draw the line with mine, I was worn out and out of cash but that’s where I’d go if I had my time with her again. Good luck OP, it’s so hard. X
		
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Thankyou so much. I’m so sorry to hear about your mare. Unfortunately I don’t think he would cope with a lameness work up , he is too unpredictable to be around and I imagine all the faffing will only exacerbate matters. He’s started a Danilon trial this evening for the next 10 days or so so we will see if that improves matters. If not, I will have to face the facts and be realistic on how much this is all fair on him  xx


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## Melody Grey (17 October 2022)

Just a thought- if your vet is onboard with a pain relief trial, might they be able to administer something that can’t irritate the stomach? Like IV metacam? (I’m not a vet obviously, just wondering whether that could take the potential for ulcers to be irritated away?)


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## Melody Grey (17 October 2022)

Melody Grey said:



			Just a thought- if your vet is onboard with a pain relief trial, might they be able to administer something that can’t irritate the stomach? Like IV metacam? (I’m not a vet obviously, just wondering whether that could take the potential for ulcers to be irritated away?)
		
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There is also a drug used in dogs but also increasingly in horses which works at brain level so only requires a tiny amount and could limit irritation? My vet suggested it for one of mine but we went another route… Gabapentin possibly?!

I had a lameness work up done on a horse using sedivet because he was so stressed by the environment of the vet hospital (horse with very limited life experience). Maybe worth mentioning?
not in any way promising an answer here, just racking my brains for what I’ve learnt through my unfortunate yet large amount of vet referrals! 🤦‍♀️


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## Velcrobum (17 October 2022)

No suggestions but am sending you a virtual hug. 

I PTS a never in training TB who became more and more unpredictable behaviour wise and when ridden. I understand what you are going through.


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## motherof2beasts! (17 October 2022)

Also you have probably exhausted all this but I found premier equine super so calm made a much bigger difference than anything else I tried!


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## ROMANY 1959 (17 October 2022)

A friend had a grey mare, was known to be difficult in stable, and turned out. Sign on the stable door to not go into stable without owner about, nor walk through her field. Behavioural trainer tried best, vets found nothing wrong after spending ££££ on her, she reared  up in the stable so high hit head on beam, was knocked out for 10 min.. we thought she was dead, when back on feet was took to vet hospital for extensive rays and tests. A brain tumour was found, behind an eye, she was PTS within the week, it was pressing on optic nerve causing great pain. Nothing could be done. She had been in my friends ownership for 18 months, after passing a vet examination on purchase. Vet said may not even have discovered it then, had she not knocked herself stupid. Cant imagine
the pain she had.


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## Fools Motto (17 October 2022)

My only input would be to x-ray his head. I know a horse whose behaviour changed drastically over night, from being calm and accepting a rider walk, trot, canter, easy chilled hacks, to literally turning himself inside out (injuring rider) - yes he was young at 4, but the behaviour changed so suddenly. Vet called, all usual checks clear, and at last resort x-rayed his head - ideally checking for teeth issues, only to find he had fractured his skull in several places and the pain must have been beyond imaginable. Probably self inflicted fall in the field doing zoomies. There were no outward signs, it just suddenly happened, and took a while to find. Glad to report the horse is ok, its taken 2 years now, but owner is aware and taking things very slowly. Whether or not the horse will have the competition future that was planned is perhaps unlikely, but only time will tell. 
Saying that, your lovely horse sounds like it's beyond the point where it could return to being safely handled, and although usually there is a reason, sometimes, just sometimes an answer will never be found. You are precious and for the sake of 'a horse' please do the right thing, he isn't a happy chap and i'm sure he will appreciate it however hard this is for you.


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## alsxx (17 October 2022)

Sorry to hear this OP, you sound d like you have really tried to get to the bottom of things and that's admirable. You've had a lot of good advice on this thread. My only 2 pence to add, having had an ex racehorse myself, was he couldn't tolerate alfalfa, and became incredibly aggressive on it. If you feed any alfalfa based feed I'd certainly try removing that (although not at same time as but trial of course).


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## spotty_pony (17 October 2022)

I haven’t read all of the replies but my first thought would be to get a CT scan done to check for a tumour.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Melody Grey said:



			Just a thought- if your vet is onboard with a pain relief trial, might they be able to administer something that can’t irritate the stomach? Like IV metacam? (I’m not a vet obviously, just wondering whether that could take the potential for ulcers to be irritated away?)
		
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Velcrobum said:



			No suggestions but am sending you a virtual hug.

I PTS a never in training TB who became more and more unpredictable behaviour wise and when ridden. I understand what you are going through.
		
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thank you  so much! I really appreciate you taking the time to answer and tell me this. Thankyou so much x


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

motherof2beasts! said:



			Also you have probably exhausted all this but I found premier equine super so calm made a much bigger difference than anything else I tried!
		
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Thankyou I’ve tried an array of different calmers to no avail


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

ROMANY 1959 said:



			A friend had a grey mare, was known to be difficult in stable, and turned out. Sign on the stable door to not go into stable without owner about, nor walk through her field. Behavioural trainer tried best, vets found nothing wrong after spending ££££ on her, she reared  up in the stable so high hit head on beam, was knocked out for 10 min.. we thought she was dead, when back on feet was took to vet hospital for extensive rays and tests. A brain tumour was found, behind an eye, she was PTS within the week, it was pressing on optic nerve causing great pain. Nothing could be done. She had been in my friends ownership for 18 months, after passing a vet examination on purchase. Vet said may not even have discovered it then, had she not knocked herself stupid. Cant imagine
the pain she had.
		
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Omg that sounds traumatic, interesting findings though, Thankyou so much for sharing xx


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Fools Motto said:



			My only input would be to x-ray his head. I know a horse whose behaviour changed drastically over night, from being calm and accepting a rider walk, trot, canter, easy chilled hacks, to literally turning himself inside out (injuring rider) - yes he was young at 4, but the behaviour changed so suddenly. Vet called, all usual checks clear, and at last resort x-rayed his head - ideally checking for teeth issues, only to find he had fractured his skull in several places and the pain must have been beyond imaginable. Probably self inflicted fall in the field doing zoomies. There were no outward signs, it just suddenly happened, and took a while to find. Glad to report the horse is ok, its taken 2 years now, but owner is aware and taking things very slowly. Whether or not the horse will have the competition future that was planned is perhaps unlikely, but only time will tell.
Saying that, your lovely horse sounds like it's beyond the point where it could return to being safely handled, and although usually there is a reason, sometimes, just sometimes an answer will never be found. You are precious and for the sake of 'a horse' please do the right thing, he isn't a happy chap and i'm sure he will appreciate it however hard this is for you.
		
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Thankyou so so much! I think at this point there is definitely something going on, but it’s like you say, we may never find it. Thankyou so much again x x


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

alsxx said:



			Sorry to hear this OP, you sound d like you have really tried to get to the bottom of things and that's admirable. You've had a lot of good advice on this thread. My only 2 pence to add, having had an ex racehorse myself, was he couldn't tolerate alfalfa, and became incredibly aggressive on it. If you feed any alfalfa based feed I'd certainly try removing that (although not at same time as but trial of course).
		
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Thankyou so much. I did try removing alfalfa for a while but unfortunately it didn’t make a difference either


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

spotty_pony said:



			I haven’t read all of the replies but my first thought would be to get a CT scan done to check for a tumour.
		
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Thankyou, I would definitely have a ct scan of his head done but he won’t travel any more , for some reason recently it’s all changed , he totally freaks out whilst travelling , rearing vertical and thrashing around in a panic bless him, he always used to be good to travel. So I wouldn’t be able to travel him to a vet hospital to have it done , as they don’t do it local to me  xx


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## ycbm (17 October 2022)

Really sorry,  but for me there wouldn't be any point in a head CT scan.  With my own horse the vet advised me that we could do it but that whatever it found would be extremely unlikely to be able to be fixed and we would end up PTS anyway,  with a huge CT scan bill. 

This would be diffeent,  of course,  for someone with insurance left to pay for it,  or if you just can't face putting to sleep a horse without knowing the cause of the problems.  
.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			Really sorry,  but for me there wouldn't be any point in a head CT scan.  With my own horse the vet advised me that we could do it but that whatever it found would be extremely unlikely to be able to be fixed and we would end up PTS anyway,  with a huge CT scan bill.

This would be diffeent,  of course,  for someone with insurance left to pay for it,  or if you just can't face putting to sleep a horse without knowing the cause of the problems. 
.
		
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I understand completely. Unfortunately not an option for us as he won’t travel anymore and I don’t think it would actually be fair to put him through the trauma of it all bless him. He has started his Danilon trial tonight 🙏🏼xx


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## Dave's Mam (17 October 2022)

I have no advice to offer, but wanted to send you a virtual hug.  You really have been trying to get to the bottom of this & I hope you both get some respite.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Dave's Mam said:



			I have no advice to offer, but wanted to send you a virtual hug.  You really have been trying to get to the bottom of this & I hope you both get some respite.
		
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Thank you so much ! X


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## ihatework (17 October 2022)

Massive hugs.
If he were mine he would be pts without question.


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## black and brown (17 October 2022)

What a horrible situation you are in, I really feel for you. I don't have any suggestions to make but just wanted to say that your horse is very fortunate to have such a caring, patient owner. Take care of yourself.


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## SaddlePsych'D (17 October 2022)

I can't really add any suggestions and you already have lots OP but just wanted to say it's okay if you are done. It's an awful situation to be in and to have been trying so hard for the last year to find a way forwards. It might be that you feel able to keep going and try some more things. But if you are done, emotionally/mentally/financially, it's okay - you have already done a huge amount for this horse.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

ihatework said:



			Massive hugs.
If he were mine he would be pts without question.
		
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Thankyou , it’s so difficult x


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

black and brown said:



			What a horrible situation you are in, I really feel for you. I don't have any suggestions to make but just wanted to say that your horse is very fortunate to have such a caring, patient owner. Take care of yourself.
		
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Thank you so much that is so kind x


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

SaddlePsych'D said:



			I can't really add any suggestions and you already have lots OP but just wanted to say it's okay if you are done. It's an awful situation to be in and to have been trying so hard for the last year to find a way forwards. It might be that you feel able to keep going and try some more things. But if you are done, emotionally/mentally/financially, it's okay - you have already done a huge amount for this horse.
		
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Thankyou so much I really needed to hear that! Thankyou xx


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## ycbm (17 October 2022)

SaddlePsych'D said:



			I can't really add any suggestions and you already have lots OP but just wanted to say it's okay if you are done. It's an awful situation to be in and to have been trying so hard for the last year to find a way forwards. It might be that you feel able to keep going and try some more things. But if you are done, emotionally/mentally/financially, it's okay - you have already done a huge amount for this horse.
		
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Ditto 99 times over. 
.


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## SaddlePsych'D (17 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Thankyou so much I really needed to hear that! Thankyou xx
		
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You are welcome. I am just so struck by how stressful and distressing this situation must be. Take good care of yourself however you decide proceed next.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			Ditto 99 times over.
.
		
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Thankyou xx


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

SaddlePsych'D said:



			You are welcome. I am just so struck by how stressful and distressing this situation must be. Take good care of yourself however you decide proceed next.
		
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It’s awful honestly, I love him to pieces and he really is a lovely horse when he’s not being aggressive, which is what makes it harder. If he was like it constantly 24/7 then there would be no option, it’s so difficult. Thankyou so so much xxx


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## nagblagger (17 October 2022)

Your horse is unpredictably aggressive with no trigger factor, you have spent time money with a lot of emotional stress trying to ease his pain and source the problem. What a wonderful owner you are. Many people would have sold on, or PTS, before now, if you reach that decision at least you know you have exhausted all possibilities (including posting on here) to save your boy. I admire you for that.
Good luck and keep us updated.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

nagblagger said:



			Your horse is unpredictably aggressive with no trigger factor, you have spent time money with a lot of emotional stress trying to ease his pain and source the problem. What a wonderful owner you are. Many people would have sold on, or PTS, before now, if you reach that decision at least you know you have exhausted all possibilities (including posting on here) to save your boy. I admire you for that.
Good luck and keep us updated.
		
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You are so kind Thankyou so much ❤️xx


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## ester (17 October 2022)

Given the extra info about not being able to travel him/work him up at all he'd be PTS if he were mine.


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## nagblagger (17 October 2022)

And you acknowledge every comment..you must be such a genuine person.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

nagblagger said:



			And you acknowledge every comment..you must be such a genuine person.
		
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Aww Thankyou, I’m so grateful for peoples advice/people being nice ,  I just feel so lost and don’t even know how I’m going to cope but I’ve got to be strong and do whatever is best for him xxx


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## Zoeypxo (17 October 2022)

most definitely a pain response. I am not sure that you will find where/what the problem is if you are unable to do a vet work up/scans etc. i hope he feels better on the danilon and allows some investigations.
We had one that just changed personality overnight, insane behaviour. PM showed brain tumour. But she was never aggressive just completely lost the plot and would rear over backwards in the field etc.
Really hope you get some answers x


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Zoeypxo said:



			most definitely a pain response. I am not sure that you will find where/what the problem is if you are unable to do a vet work up/scans etc. i hope he feels better on the danilon and allows some investigations.
We had one that just changed personality overnight, insane behaviour. PM showed brain tumour. But she was never aggressive just completely lost the plot and would rear over backwards in the field etc.
Really hope you get some answers x
		
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Thankyou so much. A brain tumour seems to be a fairly common answer on this thread. I wasn’t sure how common they were in horses xx


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## Lucky Snowball (17 October 2022)

As others have said - your horse is very lucky to have you loving him and looking after him. I wish you the very best whatever you decide to do. Take care.


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## happyhorse978 (17 October 2022)

Lucky Snowball said:



			As others have said - your horse is very lucky to have you loving him and looking after him. I wish you the very best whatever you decide to do. Take care.
		
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Thank you so much that’s so kind xx


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## PurBee (17 October 2022)

I echo what others have mentioned about possible tumours. I’ve read of cases where behaviour can suddenly change in animals. 
In humans, pituitary adenomas are fairly common, and they’re mostly unknown until the tumour grows to a size that impinges on nerves, usually optic nerves. This then causes symptoms of cluster migraines and episodes of visual distortions, balance problems Etc. These symptoms mostly occur as episodes, rather than be continuous. I mention this because humans can talk about their symptoms with tumours, animals cant - so it helps give us an idea of what an animal with tumours could be experiencing.
It makes sense that a horse especially with any tumour affecting nerves could be feeling pain, migraines, visual distortions and they’d freak-out suddenly with these type of periodic clustered symptoms. Hence very unpredictable behaviour episodes are common With tumours.

Its a shame he cant travel to be scanned as you seem to, understandably, want an answer what’s truly causing this. Yet the behaviour is very worrying, and you’ve worked so hard to try many avenues. 

Im sorry youre going through this, he sounds like a lovely boy when well, evident by your willingness to work hard with him.
Big hug x


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## PurBee (17 October 2022)

The only other option id try before giving up is gut supplementation of a mix of good quality probiotics. Have you tried probiotics yets?
My gelding had a period away and returned aggressive, biting and kicking, and didnt like his flanks being touched, or being groomed.
 At that time i was into gut health and started him on a variety of safe grasses mixed meadow hay, with probiotics and magnesium in speedibeet….aswell as a general multi minerals to off-set the deficiencies of zinc/copper etc that are common in just forage diets.

He improved a lot from that adjustment.

His behaviour was not lunging aggression at any point, and that for me is a red flag its something more serious with your boy, but on the off chance his hindgut is really off kilter, and he’s just super-reactive with it, probiotics can help rebalance and populate. 

I get some periodic gut issues and when in pain and bloated im far more likely to over-react, be highly reactive, (some may say aggressive 😜) than when im good in the gut. I loathe gut pain.


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## Pmf27 (17 October 2022)

This sounds awful, I'm really sorry that you're dealing with this. 

I've not read all of the replies, so apologies if I'm reiterating something that has already been suggested, but could it be diabetes? 

It sounds a little left field, but my old dog was diagnosed with diabetes and his behaviour changed almost overnight just like this. Suddenly he was very aggressive and had to be muzzled on walks, but once we had got a handle on his insulin he was much better. 

I had a little Google to make sure I'm not talking complete crap and the symptoms are apparently similar in horses, though diabetes in horses is so rare that it doesn't seem to be mentioned very often. Maybe something worth looking into?


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## ponynutz (17 October 2022)

How's he doing on his trial?

Another for PTS in this occasion unfortunately but I commend you for doing justice by him - stronger than me x


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

PurBee said:



			I echo what others have mentioned about possible tumours. I’ve read of cases where behaviour can suddenly change in animals.
In humans, pituitary adenomas are fairly common, and they’re mostly unknown until the tumour grows to a size that impinges on nerves, usually optic nerves. This then causes symptoms of cluster migraines and episodes of visual distortions, balance problems Etc. These symptoms mostly occur as episodes, rather than be continuous. I mention this because humans can talk about their symptoms with tumours, animals cant - so it helps give us an idea of what an animal with tumours could be experiencing.
It makes sense that a horse especially with any tumour affecting nerves could be feeling pain, migraines, visual distortions and they’d freak-out suddenly with these type of periodic clustered symptoms. Hence very unpredictable behaviour episodes are common With tumours.

Its a shame he cant travel to be scanned as you seem to, understandably, want an answer what’s truly causing this. Yet the behaviour is very worrying, and you’ve worked so hard to try many avenues.

Im sorry youre going through this, he sounds like a lovely boy when well, evident by your willingness to work hard with him.
Big hug x
		
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Thankyou so much you are so kind x


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

PurBee said:



			The only other option id try before giving up is gut supplementation of a mix of good quality probiotics. Have you tried probiotics yets?
My gelding had a period away and returned aggressive, biting and kicking, and didnt like his flanks being touched, or being groomed.
At that time i was into gut health and started him on a variety of safe grasses mixed meadow hay, with probiotics and magnesium in speedibeet….aswell as a general multi minerals to off-set the deficiencies of zinc/copper etc that are common in just forage diets.

He improved a lot from that adjustment.

His behaviour was not lunging aggression at any point, and that for me is a red flag its something more serious with your boy, but on the off chance his hindgut is really off kilter, and he’s just super-reactive with it, probiotics can help rebalance and populate.

I get some periodic gut issues and when in pain and bloated im far more likely to over-react, be highly reactive, (some may say aggressive 😜) than when im good in the gut. I loathe gut pain.
		
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HI thank you, he has been on pre and pro biotics since  I have had him. I have tried some 'stronger' formulations but again not made any difference. thank you very much though! I am in discussion with trying him on some meds for the hindgut once this Danilon trial has finished if it is inconclusive but we will see if this shows anything up first. thankyou xx


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

Pmf27 said:



			This sounds awful, I'm really sorry that you're dealing with this.

I've not read all of the replies, so apologies if I'm reiterating something that has already been suggested, but could it be diabetes?

It sounds a little left field, but my old dog was diagnosed with diabetes and his behaviour changed almost overnight just like this. Suddenly he was very aggressive and had to be muzzled on walks, but once we had got a handle on his insulin he was much better.

I had a little Google to make sure I'm not talking complete crap and the symptoms are apparently similar in horses, though diabetes in horses is so rare that it doesn't seem to be mentioned very often. Maybe something worth looking into?
		
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Thank you, i dont think it would be this as he doesnt have any of the other symptoms, i have just had  a quick look on google. thank you very much though  xx


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

ponynutz said:



			How's he doing on his trial?

Another for PTS in this occasion unfortunately but I commend you for doing justice by him - stronger than me x
		
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He only started yesterday evening so hes had some last night and this morning, so hopefully will be starting to build up in his system now, it will be interesting to see what he is like later on. thank you so much xx


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## Trouper (18 October 2022)

Your story is bringing back all the memories of going through a horrible time like this - which I have had to do twice (once with an ex-racer) - so I feel  desperately for you.  You are doing all you can and he is a lucky boy to have someone who cares so much.    Sadly, sometimes we only get the diagnosis when we can search thoroughly after PTS -  but that is no consolation to you now.

This may not work for you but what worked for me was to go through all the medical advice again in my head,  make sure I had tried all reasonable options, got a second veterinary opinion - and then my last throw of the dice was to ask Robert Pring (an animal communicator) to "read" the situation for me (in one case it had to be from a photo).  I know you say you have seen an AC but I don't know who you used.   The answers I got told me the situation was not fixable and that the pain was unbearable.   I would never take pts or medical action on the basis of a reading from an AC alone but, as the last final desperate search for knowledge to know that I was doing the right thing to let my 2 go, it gave me peace of mind that I was doing the right thing.


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## Sandstone1 (18 October 2022)

Ron fields nutrition have some ulcer supplements which can make a big difference to some horses.   A bute trial may help but if its a stomach issue can make things worse.    You sound like a great owner who is trying to to the best for your horse.  Im sure you have checked all the obvious.   Teeth, back etc.  Is he shod?   I would not feed alfalfa.  It can send some horses loopy.  Good luck.  I hope you get some answers.   Has he had his sheath cleaned?  Could it be something as simple as a bean?  Just trying to think of things to check.


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

Trouper said:



			Your story is bringing back all the memories of going through a horrible time like this - which I have had to do twice (once with an ex-racer) - so I feel  desperately for you.  You are doing all you can and he is a lucky boy to have someone who cares so much.    Sadly, sometimes we only get the diagnosis when we can search thoroughly after PTS -  but that is no consolation to you now.

This may not work for you but what worked for me was to go through all the medical advice again in my head,  make sure I had tried all reasonable options, got a second veterinary opinion - and then my last throw of the dice was to ask Robert Pring (an animal communicator) to "read" the situation for me (in one case it had to be from a photo).  I know you say you have seen an AC but I don't know who you used.   The answers I got told me the situation was not fixable and that the pain was unbearable.   I would never take pts or medical action on the basis of a reading from an AC alone but, as the last final desperate search for knowledge to know that I was doing the right thing to let my 2 go, it gave me peace of mind that I was doing the right thing.
		
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Thank you so so much. I am so sorry to hear about your situation too , its so difficult isnt it xx


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			Ron fields nutrition have some ulcer supplements which can make a big difference to some horses.   A bute trial may help but if its a stomach issue can make things worse.    You sound like a great owner who is trying to to the best for your horse.  Im sure you have checked all the obvious.   Teeth, back etc.  Is he shod?   I would not feed alfalfa.  It can send some horses loopy.  Good luck.  I hope you get some answers.   Has he had his sheath cleaned?  Could it be something as simple as a bean?  Just trying to think of things to check.
		
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Thank you!
Teeth back etc all seem fine (teeth done recently, all fine )He is shod infront but not great to shoe, will tolerate it for a minute then pull back but luckily my farrier is understanding. I have tried him on and off alfalfa feeds but there has been  no difference. His sheath area etc is super clean he keeps himself very clean I have never known a gelding like it! Bless him  x

thank you for the suggestions xx


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## Sandstone1 (18 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Thank you!
Teeth back etc all seem fine (teeth done recently, all fine )He is shod infront but not great to shoe, will tolerate it for a minute then pull back but luckily my farrier is understanding. I have tried him on and off alfalfa feeds but there has been  no difference. His sheath area etc is super clean he keeps himself very clean I have never known a gelding like it! Bless him  x

thank you for the suggestions xx
		
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Sometimes they can have beans stuck up there even if clean.  Might be worth checking?   Hope you manage to get to the bottom of it.


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

Sandstone1 said:



			Sometimes they can have beans stuck up there even if clean.  Might be worth checking?   Hope you manage to get to the bottom of it.
		
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thank you! x


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## Pinkvboots (18 October 2022)

I don't really have any advice but just wanted to say I'm sorry your in this situation it's so sad and you sound like such a lovely caring person, I really hope you manage to get to the bottom of his issues.


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

Pinkvboots said:



			I don't really have any advice but just wanted to say I'm sorry your in this situation it's so sad and you sound like such a lovely caring person, I really hope you manage to get to the bottom of his issues.
		
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Aww thank you so much, that means a lot xx


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## Rosietaz (18 October 2022)

Let us know how you get on with the Danilon trial! You could try adding some Aloe Vera to the feed which may help sooth the tummy whilst taking the meds. It’s supposed to be quite good for ulcers too, and seems to be relatively inexpensive.
I think if I was in your shoes, I’d probably also try a Vitamin E supplement after the bute trial just to see if it did have an effect, (somebody with more knowledge than me would be able to suggest a product/dose).
But well done you for being such a caring owner. Your horse is very very lucky to have somebody so understanding and willing. Please stay safe!


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## Ambers Echo (18 October 2022)

It's awful having to PTS without a diagnosis. I spent 15 months trying to get to the bottom of my daughter's pony's issues - including scoping, MRI, xrays, scinitigraphy and much else. Nothing ever explained how she presented and in the end I called it a day. But it was so hard as there is always something else that could be explored. So actually making the call to draw the line was tough. But afterwards I only felt relief and have never regretted it. Despite the loss being heart breaking for my daughter. Sending you a virtual hug x


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

Rosietaz said:



			Let us know how you get on with the Danilon trial! You could try adding some Aloe Vera to the feed which may help sooth the tummy whilst taking the meds. It’s supposed to be quite good for ulcers too, and seems to be relatively inexpensive.
I think if I was in your shoes, I’d probably also try a Vitamin E supplement after the bute trial just to see if it did have an effect, (somebody with more knowledge than me would be able to suggest a product/dose).
But well done you for being such a caring owner. Your horse is very very lucky to have somebody so understanding and willing. Please stay safe!
		
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Thank you so much for the advice! It is much appreicated xx


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			It's awful having to PTS without a diagnosis. I spent 15 months trying to get to the bottom of my daughter's pony's issues - including scoping, MRI, xrays, scinitigraphy and much else. Nothing ever explained how she presented and in the end I called it a day. But it was so hard as there is always something else that could be explored. So actually making the call to draw the line was tough. But afterwards I only felt relief and have never regretted it. Despite the loss being heart breaking for my daughter. Sending you a virtual hug x
		
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Thank you so much, i am so sorry to hear about your  pony. Its so hard isnt it. I wish they could talk! xx


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## Hormonal Filly (18 October 2022)

Sorry I can’t give any advice. Such a tough situation.. you must be such an amazing owner to put up with this day in and day out. 

We did have one horse (purchased to be sold!) where I worked years ago that would be fine, then suddenly turn. If being handled would bolt, in the stable would just suddenly jump over the door and could be aggressive. We thought she just had a tough start. I left but was later told it didn’t improve, CT scans showed a growth (tumour) in the brain so she was PTS.


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## babymare (18 October 2022)

I have no advice to offer but want to say what an amazing owner you are. Please stay safe and take care x


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## Merrymoles (18 October 2022)

I also have no additional advice to offer but, as with babymare above, I want to say you have been/are doing everything you can for your horse - so many people would have given up by now. I really hope you find the answers you need to help you be sure of your decision, whatever it turns out to be.


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

Hormonal Filly said:



			Sorry I can’t give any advice. Such a tough situation.. you must be such an amazing owner to put up with this day in and day out.

We did have one horse (purchased to be sold!) where I worked years ago that would be fine, then suddenly turn. If being handled would bolt, in the stable would just suddenly jump over the door and could be aggressive. We thought she just had a tough start. I left but was later told it didn’t improve, CT scans showed a growth (tumour) in the brain so she was PTS.
		
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Thank you so much. xx


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

babymare said:



			I have no advice to offer but want to say what an amazing owner you are. Please stay safe and take care x
		
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Thank you SO much xx


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

Merrymoles said:



			I also have no additional advice to offer but, as with babymare above, I want to say you have been/are doing everything you can for your horse - so many people would have given up by now. I really hope you find the answers you need to help you be sure of your decision, whatever it turns out to be.
		
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thank you so much you're very kind xxx


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## Sealine (18 October 2022)

I also have no additional advice to offer and can see you are trying very hard to do the best for your horse. Whatever you do next I'm sure it will be right thing for you both.   

The only 'outside the box' suggestion I can make is a visit from Robert Pring a well respected animal communicator.  He just observes your horse over the stable door and gave me alot of information about my horses aches and pains.


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## Mahoganybay (18 October 2022)

No further advise from me im afraid, I only wish that there could be that lightbulb moment for you and your very lucky horse.

I really hope you manage to get to the bottom of things and if unfortunately you have to let your boy go then you have peace that you did everything you could.

I wanted to also say, what absolutely wonderful support from HHO Forum members. There might be arguing/differences of opinions on here sometimes, but when there is a genuine ‘Chips are down’ posting like yours this is the place to be for knowledge & wonderful advice.


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

Sealine said:



			I also have no additional advice to offer and can see you are trying very hard to do the best for your horse. Whatever you do next I'm sure it will be right thing for you both.  

The only 'outside the box' suggestion I can make is a visit from Robert Pring a well respected animal communicator.  He just observes your horse over the stable door and gave me alot of information about my horses aches and pains.
		
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Thank you very much! I will definitely consider this option as well. Thankyou again xx


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

Mahoganybay said:



			No further advise from me im afraid, I only wish that there could be that lightbulb moment for you and your very lucky horse.

I really hope you manage to get to the bottom of things and if unfortunately you have to let your boy go then you have peace that you did everything you could.

I wanted to also say, what absolutely wonderful support from HHO Forum members. There might be arguing/differences of opinions on here sometimes, but when there is a genuine ‘Chips are down’ posting like yours this is the place to be for knowledge & wonderful advice.
		
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Thank you so much. That means a lot! Xx
I also cant believe how lovely people have been, i was so worried about posting but i thought it is certainly worth a go incase others have been through the same , which clearly they have, so i really appreciate everyone's advice and generousity xxx


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## Slightlyconfused (18 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			I understand completely. Unfortunately not an option for us as he won’t travel anymore and I don’t think it would actually be fair to put him through the trauma of it all bless him. He has started his Danilon trial tonight 🙏🏼xx
		
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Just a thought, if it doesnt work and you do pts speak to your vet about how much a necropsy would be at a vet hospital? 

We had this done for one of my dogs who was randomly agressive. They found a brain tumor in the behavioural part of her brain. 

We got it cheaper because the person doing it had a class of vets watching so they could learn. We also gave permission for vet history to be shared with them. 

If its not overly expensive it might be a good way, if you are able to do this, to find out but also to teach other new and in training vets about what could cause these symptoms. 

A lady i know local did this with her horse who used yo randomly flip out. Mri and xrays all fine. Turned out he had a tumor in his hind gut where the imaging couldnt get to.


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## motherof2beasts! (18 October 2022)

Sorry me again , this situation just reminds me so much of my journey! Just don’t do what I did I ended up investing so much money trying to fix the unfixable and ended up in a lot of debt with the outcome of PTS. You have clearly already done so much , see how the trial goes and let us know but make an end point, looking back I wish I’d made the decision sooner. What’s different though is how different your boy is under saddle , mine was much worse to ride and was retired whilst investigating as wasn’t safe. He was also horse aggressive and would charge others who entered the field.


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

motherof2beasts! said:



			Sorry me again , this situation just reminds me so much of my journey! Just don’t do what I did I ended up investing so much money trying to fix the unfixable and ended up in a lot of debt with the outcome of PTS. You have clearly already done so much , see how the trial goes and let us know but make an end point, looking back I wish I’d made the decision sooner. What’s different though is how different your boy is under saddle , mine was much worse to ride and was retired whilst investigating as wasn’t safe. He was also horse aggressive and would charge others who entered the field.
		
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Thank you! 
Its so hard isnt it. I just wish i knew so i could make an informed decision. 

He was always fantastic under saddle, i only ever hacked/light schooled but he was a really good boy, the nicest horse to ride, best hacking horse ever! However, because he is such a good boy (in everyday life too, when not being aggressive, he is a good lad), part of me wonders if he was just such a good boy would he hide any discomfort / pain, perhaps it would have occured under saddle if he was in harder work? x


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## Melody Grey (18 October 2022)

Just thinking about gut things- Google green clay, it was a game changer for a friend of mine. Also the equi biome test (sorry I don’t know much about it) x


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

Melody Grey said:



			Just thinking about gut things- Google green clay, it was a game changer for a friend of mine. Also the equi biome test (sorry I don’t know much about it) x
		
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Thank you ! X


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## Goldie's mum (18 October 2022)

Don't ask your vet _"what is wrong with this horse"_, ask _"have we eliminated those things that if we did find them, they would be treatable?" _If yes, then sorry but I think you should have him PTS. You and he are both very unhappy so there would be no guilt in putting a stop to this.


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

Goldie's mum said:



			Don't ask your vet _"what is wrong with this horse"_, ask _"have we eliminated those things that if we did find them, they would be treatable?" _If yes, then sorry but I think you should have him PTS. You and he are both very unhappy so there would be no guilt in putting a stop to this.
		
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Thank you very much x


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## Nasicus (18 October 2022)

I agree with MO2B in that you need to set an end point. As this thread has demonstrated, there will always be a never ending list of things 'to try', and lord knows you've gone further than most people would have, he's been very lucky to have you.
I would see the results of the bute trial, and if no improvement then call it and PTS.
I'd even argue the money you'd have spent kicking the can down to road so to speak would be better spent on a necropsy to get some answers.


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

Nasicus said:



			I agree with MO2B in that you need to set an end point. As this thread has demonstrated, there will always be a never ending list of things 'to try', and lord knows you've gone further than most people would have, he's been very lucky to have you.
I would see the results of the bute trial, and if no improvement then call it and PTS.
I'd even argue the money you'd have spent kicking the can down to road so to speak would be better spent on a necropsy to get some answers.
		
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Thank you so much x


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## SatansLittleHelper (18 October 2022)

I have literally nothing useful to add in addition to everything said but just wanted to send a virtual hug xx
Your horse might not realise it, or even appreciate it, but he is the luckiest boy to have found himself in the hands of such a caring, responsible owner. Whatever the outcome of this I wish you the very best xx


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			I have literally nothing useful to add in addition to everything said but just wanted to send a virtual hug xx
Your horse might not realise it, or even appreciate it, but he is the luckiest boy to have found himself in the hands of such a caring, responsible owner. Whatever the outcome of this I wish you the very best xx
		
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Thank you so much that is so kind xxx


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

I just want to say a massive thank you to everyone for being so kind and lovely and offering advice/past experiences/similar situations! I really appreciate each and everyone of you for your time and comments. My boy is currently on a Danilon trial for the next 10 days so we will see if that shows anything up/improves things. I just want to do the best by him, he is my world. If the kindest thing to do is have him peacefully pts, and that is what the vet advises, then that is what i will have to do, despite the fact it will absolutely crush me, i will do whatever is best for him and in his best interests. I just want to rule a couple more things out just incase it does improve something, before I may have to potentially make an informed decision   I am hoping and praying with everything I have that I can get to the bottom of this for him, but if not then i will know i have tried everything possible for my boy.  

Thank you SO much everyone, what a lovely community xxx


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## Barton Bounty (18 October 2022)

Something in his diet might be irritating his tummy, I removed any grains mixes and soya from my boys feed after he had a crazy episode and the difference is like night and day.
sometimes the behaviours can continue after, might be worth doing some groundwork with him. Just to see if it helps and to rule out learned behaviour 😊 TBs smell fear and will take advantage of it, which is why many people have trouble with nappy etc, you need to be super confident. I would recommend bentonite clay as well.
Can you try calming cookies? See if that will help any meantime. Takes about 14 days for any supplements to actually start working


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## happyhorse978 (18 October 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			Something in his diet might be irritating his tummy, I removed any grains mixes and soya from my boys feed after he had a crazy episode and the difference is like night and day.
sometimes the behaviours can continue after, might be worth doing some groundwork with him. Just to see if it helps and to rule out learned behaviour 😊 TBs smell fear and will take advantage of it, which is why many people have trouble with nappy etc, you need to be super confident. I would recommend bentonite clay as well.
Can you try calming cookies? See if that will help any meantime. Takes about 14 days for any supplements to actually start working
		
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Thank you for the suggestions. I have tried many many different diets and ruled out different ingredients like alfalfa and soya etc, and he never has any grains/cereals or anything, he’s always on a full fibre diet. He has had 12 months of solid groundwork twice daily, I have tried three different behaviourists/horsemanship trainers , it just doesn’t work with regard to the rugging and saddling etc. 
I’ve tried calming cookies previously with him but unfortunately this is much much more than that! 
Thankyou though x


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## Barton Bounty (18 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Thank you for the suggestions. I have tried many many different diets and ruled out different ingredients like alfalfa and soya etc, and he never has any grains/cereals or anything, he’s always on a full fibre diet. He has had 12 months of solid groundwork twice daily, I have tried three different behaviourists/horsemanship trainers , it just doesn’t work with regard to the rugging and saddling etc.
I’ve tried calming cookies previously with him but unfortunately this is much much more than that!
Thankyou though x
		
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Gosh , so sorry 😞


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## motherof2beasts! (23 October 2022)

Any difference on the bute trial ?!


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## happyhorse978 (24 October 2022)

motherof2beasts! said:



			Any difference on the bute trial ?!
		
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I do think there was a slight difference on the days where he was on a higher amount, however yesterday he dropped down to one bute daily (probably not enough to make a difference for a horse of his size!) and hes gone straight back to being unpredictable yesterday. Stood next to him last night stroking him, he was fine, then next minute like a switch he changed and tried to bite ears pinned back and he really meant it. No warning signs etc. So I guess the bute trial does point toward there being some pain somewhere, but it doesnt help point toward where it is/what it is. 
I am going to speak to my vet today and just see where we are at. I want her to just tell me straight her opinion and not be too nice to me - I just need to know what she thinks. 
thanks guys I will keep you posted xx


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## maya2008 (24 October 2022)

Aggression is not normal behaviour for a prey animal, so in a kind home with appropriate handling, always points towards pain/brain tumour/neuro stuff in my experience. Especially aggression that does harm rather than warning off a less dominant personality.


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## happyhorse978 (24 October 2022)

maya2008 said:



			Aggression is not normal behaviour for a prey animal, so in a kind home with appropriate handling, always points towards pain/brain tumour/neuro stuff in my experience. Especially aggression that does harm rather than warning off a less dominant personality.
		
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Thank you, that is what I am thinking. I think there must be something going on neuro wise potentially, tbh I dont even think he knows hes doing it?! Theres not always a rational reason for it, i.e. just stood next to him. will speak to my vet  asap. thankyou x


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## ycbm (24 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			I am going to speak to my vet today and just see where we are at. I want her to just tell me straight her opinion and not be too nice to me - I just need to know what she thinks.
		
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I'm so sorry you're at this point.  I find the best question to ask is "what would you do if this was your horse?"


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## happyhorse978 (25 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			I'm so sorry you're at this point.  I find the best question to ask is "what would you do if this was your horse?"
		
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Thank you so much x


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## little_critter (25 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			I'm so sorry you're at this point.  I find the best question to ask is "what would you do if this was your horse?"
		
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I was going to say that. Some vets may not answer that question but it's certainly worth asking to get a human / professional point of view.


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## Billyandme (25 October 2022)

So sorry to read this.  I was in a similar position to yourself.  Struggled for 6 years with mine.  Thousands spent on vet bills.   It ended in the worst possible way.  I was leading him out to his field when out of the blue he reared up, swung round and landed on my ankle shattering it in several places. Please be kind to yourself and him too.  My horse was pts whilst I was in Hospital..


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## Nasicus (25 October 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			I do think there was a slight difference on the days where he was on a higher amount, however yesterday he dropped down to one bute daily (probably not enough to make a difference for a horse of his size!) and hes gone straight back to being unpredictable yesterday. Stood next to him last night stroking him, he was fine, then next minute like a switch he changed and tried to bite ears pinned back and he really meant it. No warning signs etc. So I guess the bute trial does point toward there being some pain somewhere, but it doesnt help point toward where it is/what it is.
I am going to speak to my vet today and just see where we are at. I want her to just tell me straight her opinion and not be too nice to me - I just need to know what she thinks.
thanks guys I will keep you posted xx
		
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If there had been a large/significant improvement on the bute, I'd have been inclined to look a little bit more at pain related causes. But a slight improvement isn't enough, if he starts off at awful and slightly improves, he's still only come up to slightly less awful. I really wouldn't be surprised if he has a neurological issue, especially with the sudden flip of the switch behaviour. I really would not judge you in the slightest for having him PTS at this point, an unpredictable horse is a dangerous horse.


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## happyhorse978 (25 October 2022)

Billyandme said:




So sorry to read this.  I was in a similar position to yourself.  Struggled for 6 years with mine.  Thousands spent on vet bills.   It ended in the worst possible way.  I was leading him out to his field when out of the blue he reared up, swung round and landed on my ankle shattering it in several places. Please be kind to yourself and him too.  My horse was pts whilst I was in Hospital.. 


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Oh no I am so sorry to hear that


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## happyhorse978 (25 October 2022)

Nasicus said:



			If there had been a large/significant improvement on the bute, I'd have been inclined to look a little bit more at pain related causes. But a slight improvement isn't enough, if he starts off at awful and slightly improves, he's still only come up to slightly less awful. I really wouldn't be surprised if he has a neurological issue, especially with the sudden flip of the switch behaviour. I really would not judge you in the slightest for having him PTS at this point, an unpredictable horse is a dangerous horse.
		
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Thank you so much. I am also thinking it is neurological now, a few other 'symptoms' are pointing in this direction also! Still waiting for a call off the vet to discuss x


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## Puzzled (25 October 2022)

Have you thoroughly checked teeth….not just a gag in his mouth and a look….X-ray possibly? There was once a mare who was very aggressive and upon being pts it was found her teeth were all wrong and cutting into her….


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## happyhorse978 (26 October 2022)

Puzzled said:



			Have you thoroughly checked teeth….not just a gag in his mouth and a look….X-ray possibly? There was once a mare who was very aggressive and upon being pts it was found her teeth were all wrong and cutting into her….
		
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I havent x-rayed the teeth but he has had them properly checked annually and rasped etc, no significant findings and nothing abnormal/of concern x


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## Ratface (26 October 2022)

Hi


happyhorse978 said:



			I havent x-rayed the teeth but he has had them properly checked annually and rasped etc, no significant findings and nothing abnormal/of concern x
		
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I'm so sorry that you and your horse are going through such dangerous and heartbreaking difficulties. 
Many years ago, I stabled in a professional livery yard, alongside a lovely big young dressage horse.  Broken in by slowly by a kind, expert horse person, handled by ditto groom, stable hands, work riders, owner. 
One day, he picked up his groom and threw her on the ground.  Tried to trample her. After everything had been tried and nothing had changed, he was pts.  Heartbroken owner had a pm done.  He had a pituitary gland tumour. 
Your priority must be your safety and your horse's pain-free welfare.  Thank you for caring for him with such diligence.

I'm so sorry that you are faced with such a sad ending for you.  Be happy that, if it becomes clear that this is


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## happyhorse978 (26 October 2022)

Ratface said:



			Hi

I'm so sorry that you and your horse are going through such dangerous and heartbreaking difficulties.
Many years ago, I stabled in a professional livery yard, alongside a lovely big young dressage horse.  Broken in by slowly by a kind, expert horse person, handled by ditto groom, stable hands, work riders, owner.
One day, he picked up his groom and threw her on the ground.  Tried to trample her. After everything had been tried and nothing had changed, he was pts.  Heartbroken owner had a pm done.  He had a pituitary gland tumour.
Your priority must be your safety and your horse's pain-free welfare.  Thank you for caring for him with such diligence.

I'm so sorry that you are faced with such a sad ending for you.  Be happy that, if it becomes clear that this is
		
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Thank you for your kind words. Many things are pointing toward a brain/neuro issue, which would explain the unpredictability. thank you so much  x


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## Zoeypxo (7 November 2022)

how is he doing now OP?


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## happyhorse978 (7 November 2022)

Zoeypxo said:



			how is he doing now OP?
		
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Hello, Thankyou for asking! He’s still the same really bless him, he’s been acting a bit neurological with an abnormal gait when walking down a slope (we have to walk down a slope to bring in from field). He’s had bloods done which were all normal. Vet is doing a neurological exam and neck X-rays this week, but I have a feeling I know the answer. So will need to make an informed decision after that  dreading it totally but have to think what is the best for my boy. Will keep you all posted xx


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## Cherryblossom (7 November 2022)

I think this thread shows two things: you can throw endless money at this problem because the possible causes are endless, but in almost all cases, there’s not a happy ending for these horses. 

You’re clearly a wonderful caring owner, you’ve tried so much and are really listening to your horse. He has no sense of the future or his lost potential, and I think it would be the final kindness to free him from whatever pain is causing a horse who is clearly lovely at baseline to behave so horrendously.


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## pinkfluffy (8 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Hello, Thankyou for asking! He’s still the same really bless him, he’s been acting a bit neurological with an abnormal gait when walking down a slope (we have to walk down a slope to bring in from field). He’s had bloods done which were all normal. Vet is doing a neurological exam and neck X-rays this week, but I have a feeling I know the answer. So will need to make an informed decision after that  dreading it totally but have to think what is the best for my boy. Will keep you all posted xx
		
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Firstly, you've been doing an amazing job and whatever the outcome, you've done the very best for both of you.

I haven't read everything (sorry) but nerve pain / trapped nerve? somewhere? Damage to a disc? My horse hurt his cervical spine and developed an abnormal gait which eventually became turning in circles till he got dizzy and fell over. I thought he had something brain related, was very confused and scared, had quite a personality change. I think the vet said there was some compression in his spine. I think you mentioned he didn't like rugs? It could be too much weight somewhere, pressing on something. Being touched triggers some nerve pain?... I'm just trying to think of things now, sorry if you've already said its not nerve pain.

You sound like a fantastic owner who is doing, and has done, all they can for their horse. Sending hope and hugs to you both.


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## Getbackboys (8 November 2022)

You sound wonderful and caring, but coming from a racing yard with injuries and difficult horses we turn away sometimes for a year to let nature heal. Has he been turned away since his racing days. Put him out 24/7 unrugged lots of hay and let him be a horse and heal, then re evaluate in spring time. Racing takes its toll on them. Even wobblers get turned out to heal and re evaluate


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## ycbm (8 November 2022)

Getbackboys said:



			Even wobblers get turned out to heal and re evaluate
		
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I'm sorry GBG but I have to qualify this advice.  If I had turned my wobbler away for the winter on a slippery field he would have been a welfare issue.  If the wobblers is caused by spinal impingement,  the prognosis is extremely poor and it would not be fair,  ime, to keep this horse alive.  
.


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## BBP (8 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Hello, Thankyou for asking! He’s still the same really bless him, he’s been acting a bit neurological with an abnormal gait when walking down a slope (we have to walk down a slope to bring in from field). He’s had bloods done which were all normal. Vet is doing a neurological exam and neck X-rays this week, but I have a feeling I know the answer. So will need to make an informed decision after that  dreading it totally but have to think what is the best for my boy. Will keep you all posted xx
		
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Just a few thoughts, having seen you say acting mildly neuro. You said you have had bloods done, but I wonder if they did a standard profile or more advanced? My little horse had some mild neuro symptoms and significant weakness (struggling to get up) and bites a lot out of pain related anxiety, not in an aggressive way, he just cannot bare being touched. I think his nervous system is tied in knots. Having had a neurological infection myself a few years ago where even the lightest touch on my skin was like the pain of electric shocks I imagine it being a bit like that, I also had brutal headaches constantly, every second of the day, that made me feel insane. I was also brain foggy and disoriented). For him, the neuro stuff has been massively helped by high levels of vitamin E, so we now believe he suffers from vitamin E deficiency myopathy. This wasn’t picked up by a standard blood test, so I think my point is it might be worth asking for al the bloods under the sun including all the essential vitamins and minerals.

With my neurological illness I couldn’t get help on the NHS so ended up getting a full blood profile run privately and supplementing based on that. From what I remember low levels of zinc and iron and vitamin B12 and D can all have a big impact on brain chemistry. It took about a year to resolve my issues through supplementation. I now absolutely don’t underestimate how bad neuro issues can be, but have hope that some can be helped.

For my little horse I am planning to get the vet back out and run a full blood profile to see if there is anything I can add/take away to help his nervous system function. Might be one last thing to do when he is in for his X-rays?


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## happyhorse978 (8 November 2022)

Cherryblossom said:



			I think this thread shows two things: you can throw endless money at this problem because the possible causes are endless, but in almost all cases, there’s not a happy ending for these horses.

You’re clearly a wonderful caring owner, you’ve tried so much and are really listening to your horse. He has no sense of the future or his lost potential, and I think it would be the final kindness to free him from whatever pain is causing a horse who is clearly lovely at baseline to behave so horrendously.
		
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Thank you for being so kind xx


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## happyhorse978 (8 November 2022)

pinkfluffy said:



			Firstly, you've been doing an amazing job and whatever the outcome, you've done the very best for both of you.

I haven't read everything (sorry) but nerve pain / trapped nerve? somewhere? Damage to a disc? My horse hurt his cervical spine and developed an abnormal gait which eventually became turning in circles till he got dizzy and fell over. I thought he had something brain related, was very confused and scared, had quite a personality change. I think the vet said there was some compression in his spine. I think you mentioned he didn't like rugs? It could be too much weight somewhere, pressing on something. Being touched triggers some nerve pain?... I'm just trying to think of things now, sorry if you've already said its not nerve pain.

You sound like a fantastic owner who is doing, and has done, all they can for their horse. Sending hope and hugs to you both.
		
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thank you so much for the ideas. That does all sound very possible! But we are very limited with what we can investigate, he can no longer balance to be travelled so cannot travel to the clinic for investigations, so its just what we can assess at the yard. I guess the strong resentment of the rug etc could definitely be to do with it putting pressure on a nerve etc, thankyou for your ideas! Xxx


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## happyhorse978 (8 November 2022)

Getbackboys said:



			You sound wonderful and caring, but coming from a racing yard with injuries and difficult horses we turn away sometimes for a year to let nature heal. Has he been turned away since his racing days. Put him out 24/7 unrugged lots of hay and let him be a horse and heal, then re evaluate in spring time. Racing takes its toll on them. Even wobblers get turned out to heal and re evaluate
		
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Thank you. He was turned away for five months during the summer when i had him out of racing and then he has had the past 12 months turned away as i cant do anything with him. It makes no difference unfortunately  
If it is wobblers i would do the right thing in this situation and pts, its only going to get worse and we are in a mess as it is 
 x


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## happyhorse978 (8 November 2022)

ycbm said:



			I'm sorry GBG but I have to qualify this advice.  If I had turned my wobbler away for the winter on a slippery field he would have been a welfare issue.  If the wobblers is caused by spinal impingement,  the prognosis is extremely poor and it would not be fair,  ime, to keep this horse alive. 
.
		
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I have to agree, if its a poor prognosis and theres trouble already (which there is!) then i think the kindest thing to do is pts so he/they are no longer in pain/suffering x


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## happyhorse978 (8 November 2022)

BBP said:



			Just a few thoughts, having seen you say acting mildly neuro. You said you have had bloods done, but I wonder if they did a standard profile or more advanced? My little horse had some mild neuro symptoms and significant weakness (struggling to get up) and bites a lot out of pain related anxiety, not in an aggressive way, he just cannot bare being touched. I think his nervous system is tied in knots. Having had a neurological infection myself a few years ago where even the lightest touch on my skin was like the pain of electric shocks I imagine it being a bit like that, I also had brutal headaches constantly, every second of the day, that made me feel insane. I was also brain foggy and disoriented). For him, the neuro stuff has been massively helped by high levels of vitamin E, so we now believe he suffers from vitamin E deficiency myopathy. This wasn’t picked up by a standard blood test, so I think my point is it might be worth asking for al the bloods under the sun including all the essential vitamins and minerals.

With my neurological illness I couldn’t get help on the NHS so ended up getting a full blood profile run privately and supplementing based on that. From what I remember low levels of zinc and iron and vitamin B12 and D can all have a big impact on brain chemistry. It took about a year to resolve my issues through supplementation. I now absolutely don’t underestimate how bad neuro issues can be, but have hope that some can be helped.

For my little horse I am planning to get the vet back out and run a full blood profile to see if there is anything I can add/take away to help his nervous system function. Might be one last thing to do when he is in for his X-rays?
		
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Thank you so much, that is so helpful thank you x


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## ycbm (8 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			I have to agree, if its a poor prognosis and theres trouble already (which there is!) then i think the kindest thing to do is pts so he/they are no longer in pain/suffering x
		
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You are the best of owners,  I just hope you get a definite answer this week that makes the way forward clear even if it will hurt you dreadfully. 
.


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## Pinkvboots (8 November 2022)

I hope you get some answers however horrible it might be at least you will know and do the right thing by him please let us know how it goes x


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## happyhorse978 (8 November 2022)

ycbm said:



			You are the best of owners,  I just hope you get a definite answer this week that makes the way forward clear even if it will hurt you dreadfully.
.
		
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Thank you so much you are so kind xx


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## happyhorse978 (8 November 2022)

Pinkvboots said:



			I hope you get some answers however horrible it might be at least you will know and do the right thing by him please let us know how it goes x
		
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thank you so much i will keep you all posted. thank you all for your help xx


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## Gallop_Away (8 November 2022)

I have nothing further to add to the advice that has already been given.

I just wanted to say that you sound like the most wonderful caring owner. You have done everything possible for this horse, where many would have given up long ago (understandably so). Whatever the outcome, please know that you have done everything you could for this poor boy and that he is lucky to have found you as an owner. I hope that the way forward becomes clear for you, and however heartbreaking it may be, know that you have done your best for this horse, in every way possible.


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## happyhorse978 (8 November 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			I have nothing further to add to the advice that has already been given.

I just wanted to say that you sound like the most wonderful caring owner. You have done everything possible for this horse, where many would have given up long ago (understandably so). Whatever the outcome, please know that you have done everything you could for this poor boy and that he is lucky to have found you as an owner. I hope that the way forward becomes clear for you, and however heartbreaking it may be, know that you have done your best for this horse, in every way possible.
		
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Thank you SO much, that is so lovely to hear. I really appreciate your kindness x x


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## Merrymoles (8 November 2022)

I have nothing useful to add but am sending you a big virtual hug for being the type of owner that all owners should be. Thinking of you.


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## happyhorse978 (8 November 2022)

Merrymoles said:



			I have nothing useful to add but am sending you a big virtual hug for being the type of owner that all owners should be. Thinking of you.
		
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Thank you so much that is so very kind x


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

HI all, 
Just a quick update as you've been so kind. 
My horse had his neck x-rays on friday which showed arthritis and bony remodelling around C5 area in the neck. 
Hes currently not comfortable so back on Danilon just to hopefully help take the edge off. 
Vet meant to be calling me back today to discuss x-ray findings more in detail so will wait to see what the outcome of that is, but this all isnt fair on him, he's in pain on Danilon just walking to the field every day bless him and visibly doesnt want to be touched bless him, its no quality of life for him and if the Danilon only numbs the pain slightly for him then it must be pretty severe/significant   so think  I will have to make that call, but will keep you updated. Thank you for your advice and support xxx


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## Annagain (15 November 2022)

I'm so sorry. Even when it's just confirming what you already know it's a horrible shock. You have done everything you possibly can for him. I hope you can take some comfort from knowing that.


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## motherof2beasts! (15 November 2022)

Oh how sad , you were right all along. It’s so hard making that decision but will be the right one, neck arthritis is debilitating


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

Annagain said:



			I'm so sorry. Even when it's just confirming what you already know it's a horrible shock. You have done everything you possibly can for him. I hope you can take some comfort from knowing that.
		
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Thank you so much. I am still struggling to get my head around it but I've got to now. He must be in agony. When he walks he doesnt do the normal 'head bob' or swinging walk, he just holds his head and neck stiff  

The vet said if those findings came up on a middle aged or 20 year old horses x-rays she wouldnt be overly concerned, as it can be slightly more expected, but he is only 7 so that is the concerning factor and its only going to get worse. She thinks its probably an old racing injury/fall. There are no falls on his record but he could have had one whilst training at home. 

My poor boy   xxx


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

motherof2beasts! said:



			Oh how sad , you were right all along. It’s so hard making that decision but will be the right one, neck arthritis is debilitating
		
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Thank you , i have never experienced arthrtis in a horse before but i imagine it is so painful , especially in the neck which affects them 24/7!! xxx


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

I cant imagine my life without him, it's scaring me to make that decision, but I've got to as he must be in so much pain and if he is only 7 now, its only going to get worse


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## MissTyc (15 November 2022)

So much sympathy to you.  The winter will only get harder, colder, more slippery now, so I think it's time to let him go. Give him however long you need on a high dose of bute and rest assured that you investigated what you could, and indeed identified some causation ... but there might be a lot more going on with this old injury that cannot be seen on X-ray. Life without them ... Gosh it's awful. They leave a big empty hole, but it does get easier with time. Lots of time. And knowing you don't ever have to see him in pain again and won't find him one day having hurt himself more or deteriorated at which point it all becomes an emergency that is harder to live with.


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## HeyMich (15 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			I cant imagine my life without him, it's scaring me to make that decision, but I've got to as he must be in so much pain and if he is only 7 now, its only going to get worse 

Click to expand...

Yes, I totally understand how you are feeling. It's not easy. We, as kind horse owners, are so lucky and privelaged to be in a position to be able to stop their pain. You will feel sad for the life that you could have had together, but that is not now a possibility. You will also feel huge relief when the decision has been made. Sending virutal hugs and best wishes 
x


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## rextherobber (15 November 2022)

So very sorry to hear this, there are somethings we just can't fix.


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

MissTyc said:



			So much sympathy to you.  The winter will only get harder, colder, more slippery now, so I think it's time to let him go. Give him however long you need on a high dose of bute and rest assured that you investigated what you could, and indeed identified some causation ... but there might be a lot more going on with this old injury that cannot be seen on X-ray. Life without them ... Gosh it's awful. They leave a big empty hole, but it does get easier with time. Lots of time. And knowing you don't ever have to see him in pain again and won't find him one day having hurt himself more or deteriorated at which point it all becomes an emergency that is harder to live with.
		
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Thank you SO much , you are so kind and that was so nicely put xxx


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

HeyMich said:



			Yes, I totally understand how you are feeling. It's not easy. We, as kind horse owners, are so lucky and privelaged to be in a position to be able to stop their pain. You will feel sad for the life that you could have had together, but that is not now a possibility. You will also feel huge relief when the decision has been made. Sending virutal hugs and best wishes
x
		
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Thank you so much I really appreciate it xx


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

rextherobber said:



			So very sorry to hear this, there are somethings we just can't fix.
		
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Thank you, its awful isnt it xx


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## SEL (15 November 2022)

I'm so sorry to read this update. I always think you know from the horse in front of you when it's time, no matter what the diagnostics throw up, and it sounds like that's where you are.

It's such a shame to have to make this call with a young horse - my heart goes out to you xx


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## ester (15 November 2022)

I’m so sorry, but you’ll know it’s the right decision and there’s wasn’t anymore you could do


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## Pinkvboots (15 November 2022)

I'm so sorry it's such a shame as his so young but his obviously in pain it's never easy though is it, I find you feel guilty for a while but you also get a feeling of relief as you don't have the worry of them and you really have done everything possible. Xx


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

SEL said:



			I'm so sorry to read this update. I always think you know from the horse in front of you when it's time, no matter what the diagnostics throw up, and it sounds like that's where you are.

It's such a shame to have to make this call with a young horse - my heart goes out to you xx
		
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thank you so much, i hate seeing him in so much pain/so unhappy , its no quality of life for him xx


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## maya2008 (15 November 2022)

Glad to hear you found out what it was, but so sorry that it's not something you can fix.  I lost my old TB to neck arthritis last August.  It had progressed slowly and she'd been ok ... until suddenly she wasn't.   Vet honestly told me there was nothing they could do, so I made the call and she was pts a few days later.


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

ester said:



			I’m so sorry, but you’ll know it’s the right decision and there’s wasn’t anymore you could do 

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thank you xx


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

maya2008 said:



			Glad to hear you found out what it was, but so sorry that it's not something you can fix.  I lost my old TB to neck arthritis last August.  It had progressed slowly and she'd been ok ... until suddenly she wasn't.   Vet honestly told me there was nothing they could do, so I made the call and she was pts a few days later.
		
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Im so sorry to hear this  do you mind me asking what symptoms she had when she got worse? Please dont feel you have to say if you dont want to xx


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

Pinkvboots said:



			I'm so sorry it's such a shame as his so young but his obviously in pain it's never easy though is it, I find you feel guilty for a while but you also get a feeling of relief as you don't have the worry of them and you really have done everything possible. Xx
		
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thank you so much, i have never had to have one pts before so im totally at a loss, i dont know what to do/expect  xx


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## Gallop_Away (15 November 2022)

I am so sorry OP. Sending you massive virtual hugs. It's sounds like you have made your decision and it's one I think everyone who has been following your story will support you in 1000%. You are a wonderful owner to your lovely boy, and there is no greater kindness we can do for our precious horses than setting them free of any pain.


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			I am so sorry OP. Sending you massive virtual hugs. It's sounds like you have made your decision and it's one I think everyone who has been following your story will support you in 1000%. You are a wonderful owner to your lovely boy, and there is no greater kindness we can do for our precious horses than setting them free of any pain.
		
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Thank you so so much, you are so kind xxx


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## Annagain (15 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			thank you so much, i have never had to have one pts before so im totally at a loss, i dont know what to do/expect  xx
		
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You might find the BHS Friends at the End service helpful. Friends at the End | The British Horse Society (bhs.org.uk) . It offers free support to horse owners before, during and after the loss of a horse. 

The first thing you need to do is decide how you would like it to be done. There are lots of discussions on here about which method is best so you might find it helpful to have a read through some of them but keep in mind that it's a very personal decision and there's no right or wrong. You have to decide which one you'd be most comfortable with.

Do you have a YO or a friend who's been through it before who could support you through this? Our YO is excellent and if we choose to go down the gun route will make all the arrangements for us and hold the horse if needs be. He'll also hold them for the injection (and make the disposal arrangements if we go down that route) but as the injections is arranged with the vet we have to do that ourselves. In the same way I've held friends' horses for them for the injection. I found it far less traumatic than I imagined it would be. I was sad but not upset if you know what I mean.

Once you've decided, speak to your vet and either make the arrangements with her or ask for details of the local hunt (or whoever provides the service). Both the vet and the hunt will talk you through the next steps. 

And we're all here if you have questions or just want to vent.


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

Annagain said:



			You might find the BHS Friends at the End service helpful. Friends at the End | The British Horse Society (bhs.org.uk) . It offers free support to horse owners before, during and after the loss of a horse.

The first thing you need to do is decide how you would like it to be done. There are lots of discussions on here about which method is best so you might find it helpful to have a read through some of them but keep in mind that it's a very personal decision and there's no right or wrong. You have to decide which one you'd be most comfortable with.

Do you have a YO or a friend who's been through it before who could support you through this? Our YO is excellent and if we choose to go down the gun route will make all the arrangements for us and hold the horse if needs be. He'll also hold them for the injection (and make the disposal arrangements if we go down that route) but as the injections is arranged with the vet we have to do that ourselves. In the same way I've held friends' horses for them for the injection. I found it far less traumatic than I imagined it would be. I was sad but not upset if you know what I mean.

Once you've decided, speak to your vet and either make the arrangements with her or ask for details of the local hunt (or whoever provides the service). Both the vet and the hunt will talk you through the next steps.

And we're all here if you have questions or just want to vent.
		
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Thank you so much, that is really helpful. I will definitely go down the injection route, its just my personal preference. Will  the vet explain the options for cremation etc? I find it all so confusing! 
thank you so much x x


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## Pinkvboots (15 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			thank you so much, i have never had to have one pts before so im totally at a loss, i dont know what to do/expect  xx
		
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Bless you do you have a friend or staff member at the yard that can be with you?

When I worked on a yard we would often be there for liveries horses if the owner didn't want to be there so it's not uncommon.


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## Pinkvboots (15 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Thank you so much, that is really helpful. I will definitely go down the injection route, its just my personal preference. Will  the vet explain the options for cremation etc? I find it all so confusing!
thank you so much x x
		
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Vets will have numbers of places.


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## Laurac13 (15 November 2022)

I have been following your journey and wanted to say you have done everything you can for your horse, he is lucky to have you as his owner listening to him. I am very sorry it’s not positive news, thinking of you making that decision is so hard x


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## Annagain (15 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Thank you so much, that is really helpful. I will definitely go down the injection route, its just my personal preference. Will  the vet explain the options for cremation etc? I find it all so confusing!
thank you so much x x
		
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Yes - a lot of vets will make arrangements on your behalf if you ask them to but it can often be more expensive than doing it yourself (hence our YO making those arrangements for us). The basic options are usually individual cremation with ashes returned, individual cremation with no ashes returned or group cremation but that might differ from service to service. Again, there's no right or wrong it's all what you're most comfortable with. I had my old boy's ashes back and then realised I had no idea what to do with them so I decided I wouldn't have them back again. I know others for whom it was really important to have them back though. 

Where in the country are you? Maybe someone on here will have a recommendation for a pet cremation service. There is one in our area that has an excellent reputation for being extra caring and kind and they're not always the ones vets use.


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## Pearlsasinger (15 November 2022)

I'm so sorry,  losing a young horse is even worse  ime, than losing an older one. The only consolation is that you can put an end to the pain. 
In the interim, for pain relief, I have had good results with magnetic leg wraps for arthritis with one horse, although tbf, they did nothing for a couple of others. But they might be worth trying to make him more comfortable in the short term


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## maya2008 (15 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Im so sorry to hear this  do you mind me asking what symptoms she had when she got worse? Please dont feel you have to say if you dont want to xx
		
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It was horrific, is the best thing I can say.  As it progressed initially, she gradually got more touchy, but was still happy to see me and was enjoying life.  She was able to keep her position in the herd with the others, was in good condition body-wise and had a relaxed face and pricked ears.  She was on Boswellia and Turmeric to help a little, and was ok.  Then suddenly she wasn't.  Really, really wasn't.  I came down to the stables one morning to find her with scrapes all up the side of her face and on her side - she'd fallen over.  Vet was due in a few days anyway for the shetland, and she was up, moving around ok and eating so I waited, hoping maybe it was a one-off or she'd wrenched something arguing with one of the others.  Over the next few days she fell three more times.  She began to stick like a limpet to her buddy in the field, and spent increasing amounts of time in the shelter sleeping.  It had obviously begun to hurt to eat, as she just didn't bother - she stood and slept, or walked around the field right next to her friend.  Bute did nothing - absolutely nothing.  In the few days it took between her beginning to fall and the knackerman coming to pts, she became a shadow of herself.  She was absolutely ready to go when he came, but even that morning she was still pleased to see me, ears pricked and doing her best to be mummy's little girl.

It took a long time for all of us, humans and ponies, to get over her loss - she was the matriarch of the herd and my very best friend.  It was absolutely, without a doubt the right thing to do though.  We used the knackerman because it's instant and I didn't want a crying vet who would upset her (which is what happened the last time we used the vets) and make her worry.  I also didn't think she'd appreciate being touched to put in the line for the medications or for the sedation - she'd understandably become very touchy around her neck area.  PTS by gun avoided all that. The guy was kind, professional and did a very good job.  We arranged it through the end of life service website and I'd 100% use them again.  Much cheaper than the vets too, if that's a factor for you.  My husband held her, as I've held horses for friends before.  Sometimes it's better to say goodbye with kisses and polos and let that be your last memory.


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## Gallop_Away (15 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Thank you so much, that is really helpful. I will definitely go down the injection route, its just my personal preference. Will  the vet explain the options for cremation etc? I find it all so confusing! 
thank you so much x x
		
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Your vets will have contacts with a number of cremation places, or alternatively you can use one of your own choosing if you have one in mind. Whereabouts are you OP as I'm sure people on here could recommend some places.

There are things to consider with cremation such as whether you want to opt for individual cremation or group cremation, and if you opt for individual whether you would then like the ashes returned or not. It's completely a personal decision. 

Massive hugs again OP. It's the hardest but bravest decision we can make for our horses.


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

Pinkvboots said:



			Bless you do you have a friend or staff member at the yard that can be with you?

When I worked on a yard we would often be there for liveries horses if the owner didn't want to be there so it's not uncommon.
		
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I will be there with him myself and possibly my partner with me. I definitely want to be there with him xx


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

Laurac13 said:



			I have been following your journey and wanted to say you have done everything you can for your horse, he is lucky to have you as his owner listening to him. I am very sorry it’s not positive news, thinking of you making that decision is so hard x
		
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thankyou so much x  i really appreciate it xx


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

Annagain said:



			Yes - a lot of vets will make arrangements on your behalf if you ask them to but it can often be more expensive than doing it yourself (hence our YO making those arrangements for us). The basic options are usually individual cremation with ashes returned, individual cremation with no ashes returned or group cremation but that might differ from service to service. Again, there's no right or wrong it's all what you're most comfortable with. I had my old boy's ashes back and then realised I had no idea what to do with them so I decided I wouldn't have them back again. I know others for whom it was really important to have them back though.

Where in the country are you? Maybe someone on here will have a recommendation for a pet cremation service. There is one in our area that has an excellent reputation for being extra caring and kind and they're not always the ones vets use.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you so much, Im Shropshire based xx


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I'm so sorry,  losing a young horse is even worse  ime, than losing an older one. The only consolation is that you can put an end to the pain.
In the interim, for pain relief, I have had good results with magnetic leg wraps for arthritis with one horse, although tbf, they did nothing for a couple of others. But they might be worth trying to make him more comfortable in the short term
		
Click to expand...

thank you so much xx


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

maya2008 said:



			It was horrific, is the best thing I can say.  As it progressed initially, she gradually got more touchy, but was still happy to see me and was enjoying life.  She was able to keep her position in the herd with the others, was in good condition body-wise and had a relaxed face and pricked ears.  She was on Boswellia and Turmeric to help a little, and was ok.  Then suddenly she wasn't.  Really, really wasn't.  I came down to the stables one morning to find her with scrapes all up the side of her face and on her side - she'd fallen over.  Vet was due in a few days anyway for the shetland, and she was up, moving around ok and eating so I waited, hoping maybe it was a one-off or she'd wrenched something arguing with one of the others.  Over the next few days she fell three more times.  She began to stick like a limpet to her buddy in the field, and spent increasing amounts of time in the shelter sleeping.  It had obviously begun to hurt to eat, as she just didn't bother - she stood and slept, or walked around the field right next to her friend.  Bute did nothing - absolutely nothing.  In the few days it took between her beginning to fall and the knackerman coming to pts, she became a shadow of herself.  She was absolutely ready to go when he came, but even that morning she was still pleased to see me, ears pricked and doing her best to be mummy's little girl.

It took a long time for all of us, humans and ponies, to get over her loss - she was the matriarch of the herd and my very best friend.  It was absolutely, without a doubt the right thing to do though.  We used the knackerman because it's instant and I didn't want a crying vet who would upset her (which is what happened the last time we used the vets) and make her worry.  I also didn't think she'd appreciate being touched to put in the line for the medications or for the sedation - she'd understandably become very touchy around her neck area.  PTS by gun avoided all that. The guy was kind, professional and did a very good job.  We arranged it through the end of life service website and I'd 100% use them again.  Much cheaper than the vets too, if that's a factor for you.  My husband held her, as I've held horses for friends before.  Sometimes it's better to say goodbye with kisses and polos and let that be your last memory.
		
Click to expand...

oh bless her  I am so sorry x


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			Your vets will have contacts with a number of cremation places, or alternatively you can use one of your own choosing if you have one in mind. Whereabouts are you OP as I'm sure people on here could recommend some places.

There are things to consider with cremation such as whether you want to opt for individual cremation or group cremation, and if you opt for individual whether you would then like the ashes returned or not. It's completely a personal decision.

Massive hugs again OP. It's the hardest but bravest decision we can make for our horses.
		
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Thank you so so much xx


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## Peglo (15 November 2022)

So so sorry to hear this. You truly are an amazing owner. What a commitment to him you’ve had. Can’t imagine how hard it is to pts a young horse but it does sound like it will be doing what’s best for him. Please take care of yourself.


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

Peglo said:



			So so sorry to hear this. You truly are an amazing owner. What a commitment to him you’ve had. Can’t imagine how hard it is to pts a young horse but it does sound like it will be doing what’s best for him. Please take care of yourself.
		
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Thank you so so much you are very kind xx


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## SEL (15 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Thank you so much, that is really helpful. I will definitely go down the injection route, its just my personal preference. Will  the vet explain the options for cremation etc? I find it all so confusing!
thank you so much x x
		
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I've sadly had two put down this year. When I spoke to the vet practice on the phone they asked if I'd like them to organise collection by the crematorium and I said yes.

One of them was very, very special to us and we had him cremated individually because I wanted his ashes back - but that's really expensive

Both vets were brilliant at handling me on the day as well as the horses. It's a horrible time so if you've got someone who can be with you then I'd recommend it. **Hugs**


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

SEL said:



			I've sadly had two put down this year. When I spoke to the vet practice on the phone they asked if I'd like them to organise collection by the crematorium and I said yes.

One of them was very, very special to us and we had him cremated individually because I wanted his ashes back - but that's really expensive

Both vets were brilliant at handling me on the day as well as the horses. It's a horrible time so if you've got someone who can be with you then I'd recommend it. **Hugs**
		
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Thank you so much xx I am so sorry for your loss xx


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## babymare (15 November 2022)

I am so sorry. I think everyone on here was hoping with all hope for a better prognosis. Please remember you have battled a long journey and left no stone unturned to find what was causing his issues. I have said it before but will say it again. He is a lucky lad to have you by his side fighting for him. Hugs and hugs


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## Nasicus (15 November 2022)

A horrible decision to have to make, but definitely the right and the bravest choice. You're a wonderful owner and have gone far beyond what many other people would have to discover the cause of his issues. Rest assured he will no longer be suffering and that is the kindest thing we can do for them.


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

babymare said:



			I am so sorry. I think everyone on here was hoping with all hope for a better prognosis. Please remember you have battled a long journey and left no stone unturned to find what was causing his issues. I have said it before but will say it again. He is a lucky lad to have you by his side fighting for him. Hugs and hugs
		
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Thank you so very much, you are very kind xx


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

Nasicus said:



			A horrible decision to have to make, but definitely the right and the bravest choice. You're a wonderful owner and have gone far beyond what many other people would have to discover the cause of his issues. Rest assured he will no longer be suffering and that is the kindest thing we can do for them.
		
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Thank you so so much you are so kind xx


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## ycbm (15 November 2022)

I am so sorry about the news,  but also relieved for you that you have a diagnosis that makes the way forward clear,  and that you have the capability now to end your poor boy's pain, always understanding  how very hard that will be for you. 
.


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

T


ycbm said:



			I am so sorry about the news,  but also relieved for you that you have a diagnosis that makes the way forward clear,  and that you have the capability now to end your poor boy's pain, always understanding  how very hard that will be for you.
.
		
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Thank you so so much xx


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## Mrs. Jingle (15 November 2022)

I really am so sorry. What a lucky horse though to have found his final time with such a caring owner. Although it is heartbreaking for you, you know you are doing the right thing for him to go peacefully with you there beside him, ensuring his suffering doesn't carry on for any longer than it has too, his  outlook could have been far worse with a different owner. 😥x


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

Mrs Jingle said:



			I really am so sorry. What a lucky horse though to have found his final time with such a caring owner. Although it is heartbreaking for you, you know you are doing the right thing for him to go peacefully with you there beside him, ensuring his suffering doesn't carry on for any longer than it has too, his  outlook could have been far worse with a different owner. 😥x
		
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Thank you so much, I really appreicate it x x


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## pinkfluffy (15 November 2022)

I'm so so sorry to read this update and I'm sorry there wasn't better news for you. Sending hugs. xx


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## happyhorse978 (15 November 2022)

pinkfluffy said:



			I'm so so sorry to read this update and I'm sorry there wasn't better news for you. Sending hugs. xx
		
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thank you so much xx


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## Dave's Mam (15 November 2022)

So sorry to read this update.  You have done everything you can.  Thinking of you.


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## nagblagger (15 November 2022)

Sorry to read this update and for the hardest decision you will have to make in horse ownership, but it proves what a great owner you are.
Just think of him free from pain being able to gallop over the rainbow bridge.

(If he is insured, although it sounds 'cold', please keep them included in the decision making)


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## Barton Bounty (15 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Thank you so much. I am still struggling to get my head around it but I've got to now. He must be in agony. When he walks he doesnt do the normal 'head bob' or swinging walk, he just holds his head and neck stiff 

The vet said if those findings came up on a middle aged or 20 year old horses x-rays she wouldnt be overly concerned, as it can be slightly more expected, but he is only 7 so that is the concerning factor and its only going to get worse. She thinks its probably an old racing injury/fall. There are no falls on his record but he could have had one whilst training at home.

My poor boy   xxx
		
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This is very sad news indeed, im so sorry your having to do this, your giving him the best care and kindest ending you can. Thinking of you. ♥️


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## happyhorse978 (16 November 2022)

Dave's Mam said:



			So sorry to read this update.  You have done everything you can.  Thinking of you.
		
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Thank you so much xx


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## happyhorse978 (16 November 2022)

nagblagger said:



			Sorry to read this update and for the hardest decision you will have to make in horse ownership, but it proves what a great owner you are.
Just think of him free from pain being able to gallop over the rainbow bridge.

(If he is insured, although it sounds 'cold', please keep them included in the decision making)
		
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Thank you so much, and thank you for the advice xx


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## happyhorse978 (16 November 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			This is very sad news indeed, im so sorry your having to do this, your giving him the best care and kindest ending you can. Thinking of you. ♥️
		
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Thank you SO much xxx


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## Billyandme (16 November 2022)

So sorry to read this.  However you have been an amazing owner who has shown true kindness and caring for your horse.  Be kind to yourself xxxx


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## Fransurrey (16 November 2022)

Sorry to hear you're facing this. If pts is the way forward, you could also consider donation to a vet school. My pony was used to teach PM technique at Surrey and you have Bristol and now Harper Adams as options. Your vet will probably have contacts for them. When I did it, H was pts by injection and he was taken straight to the vet school from there. I didn't get any ashes back but I know there is a remembrance garden for owners who have donated pets. Big hugs and thoughts are with you. x


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## Barton Bounty (16 November 2022)

Mine was also donated to weipers. It actually gave me some comfort to know that he was going to be helpful 🥰and not in the food chain


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## happyhorse978 (16 November 2022)

Billyandme said:



			So sorry to read this.  However you have been an amazing owner who has shown true kindness and caring for your horse.  Be kind to yourself xxxx
		
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Thankyou sooo much xx x


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## rabatsa (16 November 2022)

My advice is to arrange the collection to be at the same time as the vet pts.  There is nothing worse than having the body lying around for hours.

Also walk away and do not watch the winching up, it is not the best last memory.


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## Merrymoles (16 November 2022)

I am so sorry to read your update but, as everyone here agrees (which is a rarity), you have done all you can for him.

It will be a very hard day for you but I hope that in time, you will be able to consider giving another horse the chance to experience having an amazing owner like you. xx


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## happyhorse978 (16 November 2022)

rabatsa said:



			My advice is to arrange the collection to be at the same time as the vet pts.  There is nothing worse than having the body lying around for hours.

Also walk away and do not watch the winching up, it is not the best last memory.
		
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Thank you for the advice it is much appreicated as ive never gone through this before xx


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## happyhorse978 (16 November 2022)

Merrymoles said:



			I am so sorry to read your update but, as everyone here agrees (which is a rarity), you have done all you can for him.

It will be a very hard day for you but I hope that in time, you will be able to consider giving another horse the chance to experience having an amazing owner like you. xx
		
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Thank you SO much that is so lovely xxx


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## motherof2beasts! (23 November 2022)

How are you doing xxx


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## happyhorse978 (23 November 2022)

motherof2beasts! said:



			How are you doing xxx
		
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Thankyou so so much for asking. I was only thinking this morning I should put an update on here at some point for all of you kind people.

after my vet reassessing the X-rays , there are actually two different areas of arthritis and bony remodelling on the articulate facet joints in his neck (C4-C5 and C5-C6) there is also arthritis in his back, and a lameness that doesn’t really improve on bute and of course the aggression which makes total sense as he must be in so much pain , even on a high dose of Danilon. My vet also thinks he definitely has Atleast grade 1 neurological symptoms but hard to tell if it’s more due to the lameness.

we have decided the best and kindest thing for him is to have him peacefully put to sleep so he is no longer in pain, as we just can’t keep him comfortable. I am totally totally heartbroken but I do know it is for the best for him. So my boy will cross rainbow bridge next Thursday 1st Dec 💔 
Not sure how I will cope without him but I’ve got to do this for him, I’ve got no choice. 
Thankyou all for your kind words and support over these past weeks. I really appreciate everyone of you commenting with advice , it really has helped me. Thankyou so so much again xxx


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## Rosietaz (23 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Thankyou so so much for asking. I was only thinking this morning I should put an update on here at some point for all of you kind people.

after my vet reassessing the X-rays , there are actually two different areas of arthritis and bony remodelling on the articulate facet joints in his neck (C4-C5 and C5-C6) there is also arthritis in his back, and a lameness that doesn’t really improve on bute and of course the aggression which makes total sense as he must be in so much pain , even on a high dose of Danilon. My vet also thinks he definitely has Atleast grade 1 neurological symptoms but hard to tell if it’s more due to the lameness.

we have decided the best and kindest thing for him is to have him peacefully put to sleep so he is no longer in pain, as we just can’t keep him comfortable. I am totally totally heartbroken but I do know it is for the best for him. So my boy will cross rainbow bridge next Thursday 1st Dec 💔
Not sure how I will cope without him but I’ve got to do this for him, I’ve got no choice.
Thankyou all for your kind words and support over these past weeks. I really appreciate everyone of you commenting with advice , it really has helped me. Thankyou so so much again xxx
		
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Sending lots of love your way. You’re doing the right thing. He will thank you for it ❤️


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## ester (23 November 2022)

It's still hard and daunting, even when you know it's the right path. x


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## Gloi (23 November 2022)

Have you someone to be with you on the day to support you?


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## happyhorse978 (23 November 2022)

Rosietaz said:



			Sending lots of love your way. You’re doing the right thing. He will thank you for it ❤️
		
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Thank you so much ❤️💔


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## happyhorse978 (23 November 2022)

ester said:



			It's still hard and daunting, even when you know it's the right path. x
		
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I honestly can’t get my head around it, I just feel numb but keep bursting into tears. I think the hardest part is I can’t spend time with him such as cuddling him and grooming him because he won’t let anyone near him without provoking the aggression, he doesn’t even want to be touched bless him 💔 I’m just giving him as many carrots and pears (he loves pears!) as possible and telling him how loved he is xxxx


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## happyhorse978 (23 November 2022)

Gloi said:



			Have you someone to be with you on the day to support you?
		
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Yes thank you my very supportive boyfriend will be with me ❤️


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## Ali27 (23 November 2022)

I’m so sorry that you are having to make this horrible decision 🥲 Will be thinking of you 🥰 Your boy is so lucky to have such a lovely and caring owner and that you have tried so hard for him! It’s so sad (especially as he is so young) but take a little comfort in the fact that you are doing the right thing by him🥰


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## ester (23 November 2022)

Aww Frank loved pears too, I tried to time it so that I had a bagful be ripe for when I went back to Mum's to say bye... they were a bit overdone though once I got there so he had all those on day 1. I don't think he minded.


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## nagblagger (23 November 2022)

Sending a hug...


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## splashgirl45 (23 November 2022)

Only just caught up with your update and am so sorry that you have had to make that final decision.  You have done the very best for your boy and PTS is your final kindness.  Having been through it myself a few times I know it is very difficult but afterwards I always felt relieved that they were free of any pain and I didnt have to worry any more.  Hope all goes well on the day…hugs xx


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## Bernster (23 November 2022)

💙


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## babymare (23 November 2022)

No words but a hug. We will all be there on the day beside you virtually. Be kind to self ❤️❤️


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## Rumtytum (24 November 2022)

You are the kindest, most caring and unselfish owner and my heart goes out to you.


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## motherof2beasts! (24 November 2022)

Bless you , it’s an awful decision to make but the only one you could make with those findings. I am gutted for you. My boy was PTS via injection in June 20 and I can honestly say it was 100% the right thing to do , it was a peaceful end and he seemed ready to go. After i did feel sadness but also relief as my mind could finally rest from all the thinking “do I don’t i” and panicking he’d hurt someone.


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## little_critter (24 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			I honestly can’t get my head around it, I just feel numb but keep bursting into tears. I think the hardest part is I can’t spend time with him such as cuddling him and grooming him because he won’t let anyone near him without provoking the aggression, he doesn’t even want to be touched bless him 💔 I’m just giving him as many carrots and pears (he loves pears!) as possible and telling him how loved he is xxxx
		
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My girl was like this. I wouldn‘t say she was aggressive but she gave heavy warning signals (was previously a lovely cuddly girl). She had every opportunity to bite / kick me but bless her she only bit once. 
She had ventral spondylosis; her spine was fusing but on the underside so unlike kissing spines it’s untreatable. As soon as I got the diagnosis and prognosis I made the decision to PTS, she was miserable. 
It was tough on me that I couldn’t spend her last morning fussing and grooming her, but it would have been torture for her. She liked being in her field so she was turned out until around 30 minutes before her time. No grooming or fussing, just a bag of apples and a hug. 
Im sorry you’re in this position, you’ve made the best choice for your poor boy.


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## Hannahgb (24 November 2022)

I am so sorry, you are doing the kindest thing. He is lucky to have had you, huge hugs xx


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## Trouper (24 November 2022)

You may not believe this but just now is the worst time.  You will feel better afterwards knowing he is no longer in pain.  Just telling him how loved he is is enough - sometimes things that please us (like a clean shiny horse!) are not always top of their wish list!!!

Thinking of you.


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## scats (24 November 2022)

I must have missed this thread.  I’m so sorry to hear that you are having to make this decision but it definitely sounds like the right one xx


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## Gallop_Away (24 November 2022)

Rumtytum said:



			You are the kindest, most caring and unselfish owner and my heart goes out to you.
		
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This says it all to be honest.

I'm so sorry OP. Sending love and please know you and your boy will be in all our thoughts next Thursday xx


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## Mahoganybay (24 November 2022)

I’m so sorry to hear your update, the hardest part about the partnership with these majestic creatures is that some day we will have to lose them.

This time Is the worst time and once he is gone you will feel relief for him.

Be kind to yourself, take comfort from the people who surround you.


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

Ali27 said:



			I’m so sorry that you are having to make this horrible decision 🥲 Will be thinking of you 🥰 Your boy is so lucky to have such a lovely and caring owner and that you have tried so hard for him! It’s so sad (especially as he is so young) but take a little comfort in the fact that you are doing the right thing by him🥰
		
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Thank you so much thats lovely xxx


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

splashgirl45 said:



			Only just caught up with your update and am so sorry that you have had to make that final decision.  You have done the very best for your boy and PTS is your final kindness.  Having been through it myself a few times I know it is very difficult but afterwards I always felt relieved that they were free of any pain and I didnt have to worry any more.  Hope all goes well on the day…hugs xx
		
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thank you so very much xxx


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

babymare said:



			No words but a hug. We will all be there on the day beside you virtually. Be kind to self ❤️❤️
		
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Thank you so much that is so kind xxx


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

Rumtytum said:



			You are the kindest, most caring and unselfish owner and my heart goes out to you.
		
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Honestly thank you so much, you are so kind thankyou xxx


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

motherof2beasts! said:



			Bless you , it’s an awful decision to make but the only one you could make with those findings. I am gutted for you. My boy was PTS via injection in June 20 and I can honestly say it was 100% the right thing to do , it was a peaceful end and he seemed ready to go. After i did feel sadness but also relief as my mind could finally rest from all the thinking “do I don’t i” and panicking he’d hurt someone.
		
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Thank you so much xxxx


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

little_critter said:



			My girl was like this. I wouldn‘t say she was aggressive but she gave heavy warning signals (was previously a lovely cuddly girl). She had every opportunity to bite / kick me but bless her she only bit once.
She had ventral spondylosis; her spine was fusing but on the underside so unlike kissing spines it’s untreatable. As soon as I got the diagnosis and prognosis I made the decision to PTS, she was miserable.
It was tough on me that I couldn’t spend her last morning fussing and grooming her, but it would have been torture for her. She liked being in her field so she was turned out until around 30 minutes before her time. No grooming or fussing, just a bag of apples and a hug.
Im sorry you’re in this position, you’ve made the best choice for your poor boy.
		
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Thank you so much xxx


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

Hannahgb said:



			I am so sorry, you are doing the kindest thing. He is lucky to have had you, huge hugs xx
		
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thankyou very much xxxx


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

Trouper said:



			You may not believe this but just now is the worst time.  You will feel better afterwards knowing he is no longer in pain.  Just telling him how loved he is is enough - sometimes things that please us (like a clean shiny horse!) are not always top of their wish list!!!

Thinking of you.
		
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Thank you so much, you are so right xxx


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

scats said:



			I must have missed this thread.  I’m so sorry to hear that you are having to make this decision but it definitely sounds like the right one xx
		
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thankyou so much xx


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			This says it all to be honest.

I'm so sorry OP. Sending love and please know you and your boy will be in all our thoughts next Thursday xx
		
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Honestly you are so kind thankyou so much xxx


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

Mahoganybay said:



			I’m so sorry to hear your update, the hardest part about the partnership with these majestic creatures is that some day we will have to lose them.

This time Is the worst time and once he is gone you will feel relief for him.

Be kind to yourself, take comfort from the people who surround you.
		
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thank you so much xxx


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

I am having him pts by injection and the vets have recomended a company to collect him afterwards, he will be going for communal cremation. I feel so guilty and awful that I can't have him privately cremated and recieve his ashes back, but its £850 on top of everything else and i physically dont have the money. 
I will of course be taking some of his tail/mane to have some lovely jewellery made out of , I want a necklace made with his tail hair so i can wear it all of the time so he will always be with me. I feel awful about not being able to have his ashes back but i keep trying to tell myself i have spent the money on vet treatment etc for him so that means more to him in that way... as he wont know whether ive had his ashes back or not... or atleast thats what im telling myself anyway!

I will obviously stay with him for the injection and until the collection people come, and then at that point when they are there i will say my final goodbyes and walk away so  i cannot see it, i know they will be as respectful as possible but there really is only one way they can do it and theyre a big animal to move so i dont want to see that bit, but ive just got to remember he wont know anything about that as he will hvae already gone bless him Xxx


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## Gallop_Away (24 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			I am having him pts by injection and the vets have recomended a company to collect him afterwards, he will be going for communal cremation. I feel so guilty and awful that I can't have him privately cremated and recieve his ashes back, but its £850 on top of everything else and i physically dont have the money.
I will of course be taking some of his tail/mane to have some lovely jewellery made out of , I want a necklace made with his tail hair so i can wear it all of the time so he will always be with me. I feel awful about not being able to have his ashes back but i keep trying to tell myself i have spent the money on vet treatment etc for him so that means more to him in that way... as he wont know whether ive had his ashes back or not... or atleast thats what im telling myself anyway!

I will obviously stay with him for the injection and until the collection people come, and then at that point when they are there i will say my final goodbyes and walk away so  i cannot see it, i know they will be as respectful as possible but there really is only one way they can do it and theyre a big animal to move so i dont want to see that bit, but ive just got to remember he wont know anything about that as he will hvae already gone bless him Xxx
		
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Please OP do not feel guilty. You have done everything for your boy during his time with you and you are giving him a peaceful and dignified end. What happens to him "afterwards" will not matter to him. You have been there for him as a dedicated owner when he has needed you. You have nothing to feel guilty about. After he has gone, it is only the shell that remains. He will be free and at peace.


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			Please OP do not feel guilty. You have done everything for your boy during his time with you and you are giving him a peaceful and dignified end. What happens to him "afterwards" will not matter to him. You have been there for him as a dedicated owner when he has needed you. You have nothing to feel guilty about. After he has gone, it is only the shell that remains. He will be free and at peace.
		
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Thank you so much that has made me feel so much better xxx


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## Peglo (24 November 2022)

So so sorry for you. 💔

I made the decision to pts my oldie in the summer but I organised it for the next day as the waiting for me would’ve been a real struggle. I didn’t stay with her for the blue injection so if you feel it’s too much on the day it’s ok to leave. 
I also kept mane and tail but haven’t done anything with it yet.

Lastly I just want to say what an amazing owner you are and I really hope when you’re ready you will get another horse to cherish, as you have your lovely boy. Big hugs.


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## Merrymoles (24 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			I am having him pts by injection and the vets have recomended a company to collect him afterwards, he will be going for communal cremation. I feel so guilty and awful that I can't have him privately cremated and recieve his ashes back, but its £850 on top of everything else and i physically dont have the money.
I will of course be taking some of his tail/mane to have some lovely jewellery made out of , I want a necklace made with his tail hair so i can wear it all of the time so he will always be with me. I feel awful about not being able to have his ashes back but i keep trying to tell myself i have spent the money on vet treatment etc for him so that means more to him in that way... as he wont know whether ive had his ashes back or not... or atleast thats what im telling myself anyway!

I will obviously stay with him for the injection and until the collection people come, and then at that point when they are there i will say my final goodbyes and walk away so  i cannot see it, i know they will be as respectful as possible but there really is only one way they can do it and theyre a big animal to move so i dont want to see that bit, but ive just got to remember he wont know anything about that as he will hvae already gone bless him Xxx
		
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I have had times of great peace when I have stayed after they have gone before the collection people come and I hope you can feel that too. But, like you, I have never wanted to stay for the collection - that's the time to go and get a cup of tea or whatever your poison is.

I, also, have never had individual cremation or the ashes returned and I have not regretted that. And it is far better that you have spent your money investigating his problems while he is alive than saving it to spend on his ashes. I think the waiting is the worst part and once they have gone, you know their essence has gone and the remains are just remains. I took some mane hair from my boy when I lost him this time last year, planning to do something with it but now it doesn't really feel like part of him any more so I haven't.


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

Peglo said:



			So so sorry for you. 💔

I made the decision to pts my oldie in the summer but I organised it for the next day as the waiting for me would’ve been a real struggle. I didn’t stay with her for the blue injection so if you feel it’s too much on the day it’s ok to leave.
I also kept mane and tail but haven’t done anything with it yet.

Lastly I just want to say what an amazing owner you are and I really hope when you’re ready you will get another horse to cherish, as you have your lovely boy. Big hugs.
		
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Thank you so very much. I am so sorry for your loss xx
I will definitely have another horse at some point, theyre my life and I wouldnt cope without one! Its a lifestyle isnt it. thank you again xxx


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

Merrymoles said:



			I have had times of great peace when I have stayed after they have gone before the collection people come and I hope you can feel that too. But, like you, I have never wanted to stay for the collection - that's the time to go and get a cup of tea or whatever your poison is.

I, also, have never had individual cremation or the ashes returned and I have not regretted that. And it is far better that you have spent your money investigating his problems while he is alive than saving it to spend on his ashes. I think the waiting is the worst part and once they have gone, you know their essence has gone and the remains are just remains. I took some mane hair from my boy when I lost him this time last year, planning to do something with it but now it doesn't really feel like part of him any more so I haven't.
		
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thank you so much xxx


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## Trouper (24 November 2022)

Vets I have used have been quite good at sticking to the arranged time when coming out to do something upsetting like this.  Both times I have asked them/the transporter to liaise so that they are on site at much the same time.   They will still leave you in peace to say your goodbyes but it does save dragging the whole miserable experience out for too long.


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## Goldie's mum (24 November 2022)

Thank you on behalf of us all for being such a credit to the horse owing world.
Nothing but time will ease your pain but you are feeling like this so that he doesn't feel pain. Try to remember you are carrying the burden for him. *Well Done!*


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

Trouper said:



			Vets I have used have been quite good at sticking to the arranged time when coming out to do something upsetting like this.  Both times I have asked them/the transporter to liaise so that they are on site at much the same time.   They will still leave you in peace to say your goodbyes but it does save dragging the whole miserable experience out for too long.
		
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thank you very much xx x


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

Goldie's mum said:



			Thank you on behalf of us all for being such a credit to the horse owing world.
Nothing but time will ease your pain but you are feeling like this so that he doesn't feel pain. Try to remember you are carrying the burden for him. *Well Done!*

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What a lovely way to think of it.. thank you so so much i think this will help me if i think of it like this,  i really appreciate this thank you xxx


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## Annagain (24 November 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			I am having him pts by injection and the vets have recomended a company to collect him afterwards, he will be going for communal cremation. I feel so guilty and awful that I can't have him privately cremated and recieve his ashes back, but its £850 on top of everything else and i physically dont have the money.
		
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I had my old boy's ashes back and to be honest, by the time they arrived I had started to heal and wasn't bursting into tears at the drop of a hat. It just opened up an old wound and I wish I had never had them back. There was also far more than I expected and I didn't really know what to do with them. The vision I had of them floating off on the wind just didn't happen, the just landed in a heap and I felt a bit silly. I wouldn't have them back again. 

How you treat him when he's alive is what matters, not what happens afterwards and you've treated him with kindness and compassion throughout all of this. That's what you need to focus on.


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

Annagain said:



			I had my old boy's ashes back and to be honest, by the time they arrived I had started to heal and wasn't bursting into tears at the drop of a hat. It just opened up an old wound and I wish I had never had them back. There was also far more than I expected and I didn't really know what to do with them. The vision I had of them floating off on the wind just didn't happen, the just landed in a heap and I felt a bit silly. I wouldn't have them back again.

How you treat him when he's alive is what matters, not what happens afterwards and you've treated him with kindness and compassion throughout all of this. That's what you need to focus on.
		
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Thank you so much that is very kind xxx


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## splashgirl45 (24 November 2022)

I’ve never had ashes back from any of my animals as I feel their spirit is with me all of the time, the body is just  enclosing the spirit and personality, which is always in my heart.  Photos of when they are alive and well and much more precious.  Please don’t feel guilty, he will be in your heart forever  ❤️


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

splashgirl45 said:



			I’ve never had ashes back from any of my animals as I feel their spirit is with me all of the time, the body is just  enclosing the spirit and personality, which is always in my heart.  Photos of when they are alive and well and much more precious.  Please don’t feel guilty, he will be in your heart forever  ❤️
		
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that is very true, thank you xxx


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## SEL (24 November 2022)

I'll be thinking of you next week xxx.

In some ways we should feel lucky that we don't have to let them suffer. My old boy looked stunning the day we said goodbye but he was as high as a kite on drugs. I suppose he could have limped on painfully for years because the rest of his body was fine, but that's no life. It hurts so much, but you know you're doing right by him and that's what matters xx


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

SEL said:



			I'll be thinking of you next week xxx.

In some ways we should feel lucky that we don't have to let them suffer. My old boy looked stunning the day we said goodbye but he was as high as a kite on drugs. I suppose he could have limped on painfully for years because the rest of his body was fine, but that's no life. It hurts so much, but you know you're doing right by him and that's what matters xx
		
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Thank you so so much xxx


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## ycbm (24 November 2022)

And with all you have on your plate,  you have given a personal thank you to every poster who has supported you. What a lovely person you are,  your horse is lucky to have you. 
.


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

ycbm said:



			And with all you have on your plate,  you have given a personal thank you to every poster who has supported you. What a lovely person you are,  your horse is lucky to have you.
.
		
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Awww that’s so sweet Thankyou so much. I just really appreciate everyone commenting , you all don’t realise how much you have truly helped me, so thank you all so so much xxxx


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## ElvisandTilly (24 November 2022)

My heart goes out to you but you have done everything you could and you have always put your boy first. I will be thinking of you. Xx


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## Pinkvboots (24 November 2022)

I'm so sorry your such a good owner you have everything you possibly could and I will think of you next week xx


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

ElvisandTilly said:



			My heart goes out to you but you have done everything you could and you have always put your boy first. I will be thinking of you. Xx
		
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Thankyou so much xxx


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## happyhorse978 (24 November 2022)

Pinkvboots said:



			I'm so sorry your such a good owner you have everything you possibly could and I will think of you next week xx
		
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Thankyou so much xxxx


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## Fjord (24 November 2022)

I'm so sorry you've had to make this decision. You are doing the right thing and have been a wonderfully caring owner to him. I hope you can look back on happy memories with your boy xx


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## happyhorse978 (25 November 2022)

Fjord said:



			I'm so sorry you've had to make this decision. You are doing the right thing and have been a wonderfully caring owner to him. I hope you can look back on happy memories with your boy xx
		
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Thankyou so very much xxx


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## OldNag (25 November 2022)

I am so sorry. Your horse has been so lucky to have you as his owner. Xx


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## happyhorse978 (25 November 2022)

OldNag said:



			I am so sorry. Your horse has been so lucky to have you as his owner. Xx
		
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thank you so much xxx


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## Fransurrey (25 November 2022)

So sorry you've had to make this decision. Sending you lots of strength for next Thursday. I used Tailend jewellery for my necklace and love it (I have the heart pendant). 

Definitely make sure you're out of sight for collection. There's sadly no way of moving a body that size with any dignity. 

Massive hugs. Your horse is very lucky to have you. x


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## happyhorse978 (25 November 2022)

Fransurrey said:



			So sorry you've had to make this decision. Sending you lots of strength for next Thursday. I used Tailend jewellery for my necklace and love it (I have the heart pendant).

Definitely make sure you're out of sight for collection. There's sadly no way of moving a body that size with any dignity.

Massive hugs. Your horse is very lucky to have you. x
		
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Thank you so very much xxx


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## Velcrobum (25 November 2022)

Sadly I had to have my old boy PTS at the weekend. But I have chosen to have his ashes back, I know what to expect and he will be buried in the garden in a quiet corner along with his predecessor who's ashes I also got back many years ago. We have a large garden in a rural location so not as gruesome as some might think.

happyhorse I know exactly what you are going through and you have my sympathies and a virtual hug.


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## Rumtytum (1 December 2022)

Thinking of you today.


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## Zoeypxo (1 December 2022)

As above thinking of you today, i hope it goes as well as possible. You are a good owner x


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## Merrymoles (1 December 2022)

Thinking of you today. You have all our support. xx


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## Errin Paddywack (1 December 2022)

Another thinking of you today. xx


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## ycbm (1 December 2022)

Have no doubts today,  this is the right thing to do.  Will be thinking of you. 
.


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## babymare (1 December 2022)

Another thinking of you x


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## Gallop_Away (1 December 2022)

And another ❤


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## BallyJ (1 December 2022)

ycbm said:



			Have no doubts today,  this is the right thing to do.  Will be thinking of you.
.
		
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Couldn't have put it better. Look after yourself x


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## Peglo (1 December 2022)

Big hugs today. Thinking of you. X


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## fankino04 (1 December 2022)

And another one sending hugs for today xx


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## splashgirl45 (1 December 2022)

Thinking of you xx


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## Milliepony (1 December 2022)

Another thinking of you xxx


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## Mrs. Jingle (1 December 2022)

Stay strong you are in my thoughts. x


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## Pinkvboots (1 December 2022)

Thinking of you xx


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## mustardsmum (1 December 2022)

Thinking of you today and sending gentle hugs. Xx


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## Barton Bounty (1 December 2022)

Sending hugs for today 💔


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## View (1 December 2022)

I hope it was peaceful, and that you can remember that you did everything for him and let him go so that heh didn’t suffer.

It’s our final act of kindness to them and it hurts us so much precisely because we care.


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## Dave's Mam (1 December 2022)

Thinking of you.


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## Kunoichi73 (1 December 2022)

Sorry you're having to go through this. Thinking of you today. You're doing what's best for your boy.


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## motherof2beasts! (1 December 2022)

Thinking of you today ❤️


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (2 December 2022)

Gloi said:



			If this was a dog people would be horrified it hadn't been pts. The same applies here I'm afraid. Pain past or present is likely the cause but don't wait until he kills you or someone else, there's plenty of nice ex racehorses needing a home. Sorry.
		
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^^^ I have deliberately not read a lot of the other replies on here but this basically sums up what is in my mind.

OP you have done your very very best with this horse and have spent a huge amount of money. He has shown that he WILL physically harm people, and has done so.

You could get this expert and that expert in; ditto vets & other horse whisperers & allied "professionals" but at the end of the day you could be throwing good money after bad and someone is still quite likely to get hurt.

Sorry but for me I'd have made "the decision" well before now; had to make a tough choice about my dear old gal (only 10yo) who was an absolute sweetie but she had trigeminal nerve headshaking and had got to the point where she was beginning to be dangerous to handle simply because she was obviously in soooh much pain. 

Please don't wait until this horse seriously harms either you or someone else.

Sorry, wish I could be more positive.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (2 December 2022)

Posted in error sorry


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## happyhorse978 (2 December 2022)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			^^^ I have deliberately not read a lot of the other replies on here but this basically sums up what is in my mind.

OP you have done your very very best with this horse and have spent a huge amount of money. He has shown that he WILL physically harm people, and has done so.

You could get this expert and that expert in; ditto vets & other horse whisperers & allied "professionals" but at the end of the day you could be throwing good money after bad and someone is still quite likely to get hurt.

Sorry but for me I'd have made "the decision" well before now; had to make a tough choice about my dear old gal (only 10yo) who was an absolute sweetie but she had trigeminal nerve headshaking and had got to the point where she was beginning to be dangerous to handle simply because she was obviously in soooh much pain.

Please don't wait until this horse seriously harms either you or someone else.

Sorry, wish I could be more positive.
		
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Not really something I needed to read after what myself and my boy have been through. Please see all other comments


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## happyhorse978 (2 December 2022)

Just want to thank everyone who has taken the time to help me and offer your support. My boy passed peacefully in the sunshine yesterday and I stayed by his side the whole time. I miss him terribly it physically hurts and my life will never be the same without him, but he’s not in pain anymore and he’s free now. I’ve sent some of his tail off today so I can have a lovely necklace made from his tail hair and then he can be with me again forever. I’m truly broken but appreciate everyone who has been kind on here. Thankyou all. X


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## Gallop_Away (2 December 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Not really something I needed to read after what myself and my boy have been through. Please see all other comments
		
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It was a completely tactless comment. I'm so sorry OP. I hope everything went "well" and that you are OK. Massive hugs again xx


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## Merrymoles (2 December 2022)

I am so glad it was peaceful. I know it hurts like hell but you will take comfort in time that you did right by him and were everything that a good owner should be. Also sending a massive hug. xx


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## Gallop_Away (2 December 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Just want to thank everyone who has taken the time to help me and offer your support. My boy passed peacefully in the sunshine yesterday and I stayed by his side the whole time. I miss him terribly it physically hurts and my life will never be the same without him, but he’s not in pain anymore and he’s free now. I’ve sent some of his tail off today so I can have a lovely necklace made from his tail hair and then he can be with me again forever. I’m truly broken but appreciate everyone who has been kind on here. Thankyou all. X
		
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I am so sorry for your loss. It sounds like it was such a peaceful and dignified end for your boy. That is such an amazing thing. 
He was so lucky to have such a brave, caring, wonderful owner, who clearly put him first every time and loved him dearly.
Run free now beautiful boy 🌈 OP please look after yourself and know that you did your boy proud.


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## ycbm (2 December 2022)

happyhorse978 said:



			Just want to thank everyone who has taken the time to help me and offer your support. My boy passed peacefully in the sunshine yesterday and I stayed by his side the whole time. I miss him terribly it physically hurts and my life will never be the same without him, but he’s not in pain anymore and he’s free now. I’ve sent some of his tail off today so I can have a lovely necklace made from his tail hair and then he can be with me again forever. I’m truly broken but appreciate everyone who has been kind on here. Thankyou all. X
		
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You have truly been the best of owners.  Look after yourself now. 
.


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## splashgirl45 (2 December 2022)

Glad all went as well as it could.  Look after yourself and remember you did it for him and not for youxx


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## Rumtytum (2 December 2022)

Your post has brought tears to my eyes, there is no greater love than what you did.


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## millikins (2 December 2022)

I'm sorry, it's a horrible thing to have to do but you have done what's right for him.


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## babymare (2 December 2022)

You have been the most amazing owner that every horse hopes for. It’s truly hard but in time your grief will ease and memories will bring a smile. Doesn’t mean you stop missing him. I still miss my girl some 7 years on. Give yourself time and take care of yourself. Sending you big hugs x


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## HollyWoozle (2 December 2022)

@happyhorse978 you have absolutely 100% done the right thing in my opinion, not only for others but for your boy himself. I am sorry for your loss and I know it must be so raw and painful right now, but please know that you made a very difficult decision which was in everyone's best interests. Your horse is resting now with no stress or worries and in time your own pain will ease, but for sure you will never forget him. As a side note, I used to insist on getting the ashes back but I wouldn't do it in the future and I think having some jewellery made is a much nicer idea and he will be with you always. 

Please go easy on yourself. I think you have been very brave.


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## happyhorse978 (2 December 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			It was a completely tactless comment. I'm so sorry OP. I hope everything went "well" and that you are OK. Massive hugs again xx
		
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Thankyou so very much xxx


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## happyhorse978 (2 December 2022)

Merrymoles said:



			I am so glad it was peaceful. I know it hurts like hell but you will take comfort in time that you did right by him and were everything that a good owner should be. Also sending a massive hug. xx
		
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Thankyou so much xx


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## happyhorse978 (2 December 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			I am so sorry for your loss. It sounds like it was such a peaceful and dignified end for your boy. That is such an amazing thing.
He was so lucky to have such a brave, caring, wonderful owner, who clearly put him first every time and loved him dearly.
Run free now beautiful boy 🌈 OP please look after yourself and know that you did your boy proud.
		
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Thankyou so very much that is so kind xxx


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## happyhorse978 (2 December 2022)

ycbm said:



			You have truly been the best of owners.  Look after yourself now.
.
		
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Thankyou again so much xxx


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## happyhorse978 (2 December 2022)

splashgirl45 said:



			Glad all went as well as it could.  Look after yourself and remember you did it for him and not for youxx
		
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Thankyou xxx


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## happyhorse978 (2 December 2022)

Rumtyrobin said:



			Your post has brought tears to my eyes, there is no greater love than what you did.
		
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Thankyou so very much xxx


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## meleeka (2 December 2022)

Relieved to read it went as well as it could have.  Look after yourself xx


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## happyhorse978 (2 December 2022)

millikins said:



			I'm sorry, it's a horrible thing to have to do but you have done what's right for him.
		
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Thankyou very much xx


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## happyhorse978 (2 December 2022)

babymare said:



			You have been the most amazing owner that every horse hopes for. It’s truly hard but in time your grief will ease and memories will bring a smile. Doesn’t mean you stop missing him. I still miss my girl some 7 years on. Give yourself time and take care of yourself. Sending you big hugs x
		
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Thankyou so much that’s lovely xxx


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## happyhorse978 (2 December 2022)

HollyWoozle said:



@happyhorse978 you have absolutely 100% done the right thing in my opinion, not only for others but for your boy himself. I am sorry for your loss and I know it must be so raw and painful right now, but please know that you made a very difficult decision which was in everyone's best interests. Your horse is resting now with no stress or worries and in time your own pain will ease, but for sure you will never forget him. As a side note, I used to insist on getting the ashes back but I wouldn't do it in the future and I think having some jewellery made is a much nicer idea and he will be with you always.

Please go easy on yourself. I think you have been very brave.
		
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Thankyou so much. It wasn’t fair for him to carry on in pain when there was nothing that could be done to fix him, and now he’s pain free forever ❤️ Thankyou xx


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## happyhorse978 (2 December 2022)

meleeka said:



			Relieved to read it went as well as it could have.  Look after yourself xx
		
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Thankyou so much xx


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## Peglo (2 December 2022)

So glad he had a sunny day at the end. A lovely way to go. 
You may not feel it right now but what a brave and loyal decision you’ve made. look after yourself and know we’re all here for you when/if you need us. Xx


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## happyhorse978 (2 December 2022)

Peglo said:



			So glad he had a sunny day at the end. A lovely way to go.
You may not feel it right now but what a brave and loyal decision you’ve made. look after yourself and know we’re all here for you when/if you need us. Xx
		
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Thankyou so very much xxx


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## nagblagger (2 December 2022)

Don't worry about him..my 2 boys would have been waiting over the rainbow bridge to show him around, so he's in good company running pain free.
Well done for making the hardest decision of all.


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## motherof2beasts! (3 December 2022)

Bless you hardest but kindest decision an owner ever has to make. It will take time for the sadness to lift but I ended up feeling relief too. It’s so hard having a horse with issues you can’t fix, loving them but also being anxious every time you go to yard about what they may have done. Look after yourself xxx


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## happyhorse978 (3 December 2022)

nagblagger said:



			Don't worry about him..my 2 boys would have been waiting over the rainbow bridge to show him around, so he's in good company running pain free.
Well done for making the hardest decision of all.
		
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Aww that’s really lovely thank you so much xxx


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## happyhorse978 (3 December 2022)

motherof2beasts! said:



			Bless you hardest but kindest decision an owner ever has to make. It will take time for the sadness to lift but I ended up feeling relief too. It’s so hard having a horse with issues you can’t fix, loving them but also being anxious every time you go to yard about what they may have done. Look after yourself xxx
		
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Thankyou so much. I just had to end his pain and suffering, he was the most loveliest boy, who didn’t deserve to be in pain. I miss him so so much. Thankyou xxx


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## Pinkvboots (4 December 2022)

Thank you for the update I'm glad he went peacefully xx


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