# Anyone know any Dun (not Buckskin) Stallions at stud 15hh mark?



## Cpt Stumpy (28 January 2015)

I'm looking for dun stallions (only found one) standing in the UK

Ideally middle-weight, Super-Ideally Chestnut based. 

But all I can find when I use search engines are Buckskins


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## JanetGeorge (28 January 2015)

\Search with google on dun stallions at stud uk - you should get a decent list.


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## Meowy Catkin (28 January 2015)

Grullos, so sadly not Chestnut Dun - which I agree is a super colour.

http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_13899.html

http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_36143.html

Highlands might be an option as they do carry the true Dun gene, but finding one without grey is a challenge.

http://www.bapsh.co.uk/Breeding/Stallions/Colours/stColour.html scroll down to Mejicano XXIX, they have his DNA results up and he's Ee aa DD, so 50% chance of passing on chestnut and 100% chance of passing on Dun.


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## Cpt Stumpy (28 January 2015)

That's Janet, but when you google 'dun stallions at stud' you get a list of buckskins, I've sifted though enough to give up now.  

and thanks Faracat, Mejicano might be a second best but he's a bit tall 15.3hh 
its to go over a 14.2hh Cremello (e/e A/A Cr/Cr) I'm thinking of breeding for a dunalino 
Majicano would give me 50/50 Dunalino or Dunskin. 
Thankyou


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## LittleBlackMule (28 January 2015)

Another proper dun, but again not chestnut:

http://www.millpark-andalusians.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=39

Another nice QH:

http://bluemoon-quarterhorses.com/stallion/all-blue-n-cruisin/

It surprises me how many breeders state their stallion is dun when it isn't, especially the Connemara when the breed doesn't even carry the dun gene.


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## Meowy Catkin (28 January 2015)

Yep and with Welshies too.

ETA - I think the Blue Moon horse is another Buckskin looking at his photo, oh yes, look at his progeny, he's sired a palomino out of a chestnut mare. Buckskin!


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## LittleBlackMule (28 January 2015)

If you wanted to guarantee a truly beautiful golden dun with an amazing stripy black and silver mane and tail, go for a Fjord stallion!


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## Cpt Stumpy (28 January 2015)

Fjords carry Cream and Pangare genes, I wanted to avoid Pangare if possible it dilutes chestnut, and my aim was for a Dunalino 

Though it may come to some surprise 4 pure welsh (a's) have tested positive for Dun! I believe 3 are chestnut one is black, all female, all hetrozygous. one breeder has her's in foal the others are empty this year. no colts have been found with the dun gene yet though  there is a little group of them on facebook trying to preserve the last welsh dun's and educate other welsh breeders in a attempt to locate and preserve the last of the dun welsh ponies. 

That was a good find but Millpark horses are in my cremelo's bloodline, i'll have to look into them make sure any offspring wouldn't be inbred


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## Rollin (28 January 2015)

I too would suggest a Highland especially if you are looking for middlewieght.

I cannot remember if he was Dun or Bay but look at Stirlingdene, who was supreme M&M stallion at HOYS a few years back.  His sire Fyfedene was BOB at HOYS and grey.


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## Meowy Catkin (28 January 2015)

R - he's stunning and looks to be bay dun to me.


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## Rollin (28 January 2015)

Faracat said:



			R - he's stunning and looks to be bay dun to me. 

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I could not remember.  I used to keep one of my CB mares at Ballinton stud when we did not have room at home.  That is how I know so much about Scott McGregor's breeding, my own Highland came from him.

I do know Scott bred some super dun ponies.  What about the people on Speyside who were on Countryfile on Sunday?  (He also used to stand a CB stallion)


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## Kallibear (29 January 2015)

Quite a few nice Highland stallions in dun about 

Yellow dun is bay dun and Mouse dun is black dun (look up Carlung Feargus).

You'd get a lovely temperament and a very stocky pony. 

I have yet to see a chestnut highland. The gene surely exists but if it does it's masked by black or grey.


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## Cpt Stumpy (29 January 2015)

I had been looking down the highland route for a while, I joined the facebook group in hopes of hunting down a Fox Dun (highlands name for a chestnut dun) but no luck. I've met people who once owned mares, but none of them new of anyone today that owned a chestnut dun, let alone a boy one. 

I can't believe a chestnut dun stallion is so hard to find :/


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## Meowy Catkin (29 January 2015)

What about talking to somewhere like Twemlows and asking them about importing semen from abroad? There will be plenty of Chestnut Duns in the US for example.

http://www.stallionsnow.com/reddunquarterhorse.htm


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## Meowy Catkin (29 January 2015)

I like Azures Tuff Te. From reading the details, I think he's heterozygous for Dun.


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## Rollin (29 January 2015)

Kallibear said:



			Quite a few nice Highland stallions in dun about 

Yellow dun is bay dun and Mouse dun is black dun (look up Carlung Feargus).

You'd get a lovely temperament and a very stocky pony. 

I have yet to see a chestnut highland. The gene surely exists but if it does it's masked by black or grey.
		
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I looked him up.  His grandsire is Major of Whitfield, grandsire to my own pony, who is by the way a Cream Dun.  I have never seen another.


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## Kallibear (29 January 2015)

Feargus is our Highland pony's dad and the dad of friend's foal. The mare is going back to him this spring. Lovely pony.

He's one of the few older black dun stallions around but there's quite a few very nice younger colts coming through. 
I don't know if he's double or single dun but AFAIK, all his foals have been dun.

You've not seen cream dun before?  It's really common in highland ponies and is yellow (bay) dun with grey, so they go a pale cream colour until they completely grey. Usually.  From experience most HiPo owners just call them what ever they feel like 

The naming of HiPo duns is odd and not standardised because, until recently, there was little or no interest in the genetics of base colour and grey and dun genes. There still isn't: most breeders couldn't tell you their broodstocks true genetic colour. My friend had his mare tested for grey before he bred her (she's homozygous grey so was worth going for a non grey stallion) and also his filly , who's non grey, to his delight). Most HiPo owners and breeders just look at him strangely when he mentions it 

Another friend has a mare who MIGHT be fox (chestnut) dun (she's a very odd bay dun otherwise,  with darker but not black legs) The line apparently has had full chestnuts in the distant past. She's gorgeous but sadly has a white sock and obvious star (also know in the line but often hidden by grey gene) so no good to show. I'm going to persuade her to get the pony tested.


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## Meowy Catkin (29 January 2015)

KB - I've asked on here before if cream dun involved the grey gene and was told 'no' even though the pony looked grey to me. It's good to hear that I wasn't going mad, as it really confused me, I was wracking my brain thinking 'if grey isn't involved what on earth is?'


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## Kallibear (29 January 2015)

Faracat said:



			KB - I've asked on here before if cream dun involved the grey gene and was told 'no' even though the pony looked grey to me. It's good to hear that I wasn't going mad, as it really confused me, I was wracking my brain thinking 'if grey isn't involved what on earth is?'
		
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You'll hear all sorts of rubbish about Highland Pony colouring because most owners/breeders know nothing about colour genetics. Ask them if they're homozygous or heterozygous (or even just single or double) gene for grey and they think you're nuts. 

Cream dun can really be any colour that looks 'cream' coloured! Grey dun is usually a black dun that's greying out. Cream dun is usually bay dun that's greying out. But it could also be chestnut dun that's greying. I suppose that's why chestnut has somehow got 'lost' over the years. God forbid if you asked someone if their black highland pony (there are quite a few nowadays) is double black or is chestnut/black!  And grey is so prevalent an strong that there could be all sorts of colours hiding, they've just never been properly researched and tested. It's make a fascinating project.

I don't think there's any cream genes (actual cream, not 'cream dun' ) in Highlands as you never see palominos or cremello's or dunalinos etc. There is however some silvery stuff about in the Island ponies. And possibly panguare (sp?) as there's plenty of mealy muzzels about. It's at that point my knowledge of genetics run out!


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## Kallibear (29 January 2015)

This is cream dun. He'll go much lighter until he's just got a slightly yellow tinge, than be completely white.







Fergus (by Carlung Feargus) is an unusual yellow dun. Very pale body with an almost black dun face. They're usually much more golden.  He's got lovely zebra striping though! They're REALLY obvious at certain times of year.


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## Meowy Catkin (29 January 2015)

Thanks for that.


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## Rollin (29 January 2015)

Really interesting thread.  My 'cream' dun looks dapple grey to me, which is probably why I have never seen another!!

 I only know he is cream dun, because he was born in Germany, purchased by Scott McGregor as a yearling and brought back to Ballinton. (Hs other grandsire is Eagledene)  HPS papers say he is a cream dun.

My Shagya Arabs are Grey Truite (trout) in the French Stud Book but Bay Roan in the Hungarian Stud book.

As we know a rose will smell as sweet by any other name.


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## Bestdogdash (29 January 2015)

Really interesting thread - I feel really ignorant as had no idea of the various 'strains' of dun. OP do you have a photo of a chestnut dun we could see ? I know there is one somewhere in this thread, but it just looks chestnut to me, so would like to understand the difference if possible ? I seem to recall a chestnut dun horse advertised here >>>> a couple of days ago.


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## Kallibear (29 January 2015)

Rollin said:



			Really interesting thread.  My 'cream' dun looks dapple grey to me, which is probably why I have never seen another!!

 I only know he is cream dun, because he was born in Germany, purchased by Scott McGregor as a yearling and brought back to Ballinton. (Hs other grandsire is Eagledene)  HPS papers say he is a cream dun.

My Shagya Arabs are Grey Truite (trout) in the French Stud Book but Bay Roan in the Hungarian Stud book.

As we know a rose will smell as sweet by any other name.
		
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Like this?







This is also a cream dun (pretty sure, although I don't know what colour it was as a baby). It's got the yellow tinge left from the bay but unlike the first cream dun, it's got the dapple gene as well as the grey gene. Over time it will loose the yellow tinge but will probably hold it's dapples for longer,  making it look just plain dappled grey.

This is a dapple grey Highland without the dun gene. They're actually fairly rare as the dun gene is so prevalent.  Very similar to the dappled cream dun but without the tinge (she's actually 3/4 sister to the dappled cream dun)












Grr, can't get the last picture to work!


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## Meowy Catkin (29 January 2015)

Bestdogdash said:



			Really interesting thread - I feel really ignorant as had no idea of the various 'strains' of dun. OP do you have a photo of a chestnut dun we could see ? I know there is one somewhere in this thread, but it just looks chestnut to me, so would like to understand the difference if possible ? I seem to recall a chestnut dun horse advertised here >>>> a couple of days ago.
		
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The stallion I posted in post 15 is a chestnut dun

Rollin, Cream Dun is black + Agouti + Dun + grey and anything with grey is usually called 'grey' regardless of the base colour. However it is always useful to know the base colour, so Grey (Bay Dun) is more accurate IMO. Using the word cream is confusing because there is a colour gene called Cream.


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## ester (29 January 2015)

And HPS papers probably mean nothing colour wise as they do seem to make it up a bit


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## Kallibear (29 January 2015)

ester said:



			And HPS papers probably mean nothing colour wise as they do seem to make it up a bit 

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They absolutely do just make up colours as they go along. I've seen biscuit duns. A chocolate dun. Mushroom dun. It's surprising and a little sad how little interest is taken in colour genetics for the HP. I once had a 20min argument with a couple of serious HiPo owners/breeders/show-ers about buckskins and duns. When I'm old and fogey and can't cope with proper horses I'm going to aim to bred a true chestnut HiPo.


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## Kallibear (29 January 2015)

Faracat said:



			The stallion I posted in post 15 is a chestnut dun

Rollin, Cream Dun is black + Agouti + Dun + grey and anything with grey is usually called 'grey' regardless of the base colour. However it is always useful to know the base colour, so Grey (Bay Dun) is more accurate IMO. Using the word cream is confusing because there is a colour gene called Cream.
		
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Sadly it would probably just be easier if they were called plain 'grey' but in highland pony land it's not so simple. There's very few true pure greys, most are dun too. Grey bay dun would be too confusing when there's also grey dun. And bay due is in fact called yellow dun. But a yellow dun going grey is called a cream dun. And a grey dun is actually a mouse dun going grey. But mouse is really black dun.  Where 'mouse' came from, god knows!


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## Meowy Catkin (29 January 2015)

I would argue that having the dun gene is irrelevant as anything with grey will grey out over time (apart from double dilutes as they don't really have pigment to lose), dun or not. A Silver bay splashed white with grey, is still going to grey out after all. So the question is, what is a 'pure grey'? Are only chestnuts and blacks with no other modifying genes capable of being 'pure greys'? So a bay horse that greys out isn't pure, even if it ends up white furred, just like the 'no other modifying genes' horses? So I would say that regardless of what base colour it is, having a grey gene makes calling it 'grey' perfectly acceptable.  Interesting thoughts.

I do agree that their names are misleading and are also a bit dated these days.


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## Gemmabel (30 January 2015)

When I visited Whitefield Highland Ponies in January he had a chesnut yearling. Cannot remember if he said it was a filly or colt. He was very surprised at the colouring though. Not sure if this would be classed as a Chesnut dun? I don't know anything about the colour genetics but just remembered him saying


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## Rollin (30 January 2015)

What about a Criollo?


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## Cpt Stumpy (30 January 2015)

Wow didn't realise so many people would be interested.

Pure Highlands have in there gene pool, Black and Chestnut, with Modifiers Agouti (Bay), Dun, Silver and Grey. 

There is a friend of mine intending to write a article in hopes of getting it published in the H&H about the extinction of colours in pure breed stock. 

The motivation for the article was influenced quiet recently, as the H&H don't have a colour choice of 'Buckskin' all Buckskin's had to be listed on this site as 'Dun' and the seller had to describe there animals as Buckskin in the long description to correct the advert. 
Recently H&H made a article called '8 Delightful Dun's for sale' the lady who wrote the article, had linked photo's of 8 horses for sale on the site described by the site as 'Dun' in colour (even when the sellers had described Buckskin in the long description) all 8 horses she'd found were buckskin's. 
The article was also on facebook, and as you could expect the debate started, the genetically educated were less than impressed that the H&H got all the colours wrong. The less educated insulted the educated, using my favourite argument of ignorance fallacy. 
H&H's first response blocked all commenting on the article and added the disclaimer that they couldn't be held responsible.  
Oddly that was short lived, the article had its name and description changed to Dun's and Buckskin's. and H&H on the facebook side of the comments said they would add in 'Buckskin' as a colour. 
( http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/feat...ForSale&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social )    

Her other motivation is she's one of the last owner's of True Dun Pure Welsh ponies, there are only 4 left in the EU to the groups combined knowledge, and one more in the US, possibly more they've yet to find, though they have been looking for some time now. It was previously believed Dun in welsh ponies was already extinct. she's hoping the article will educate some to the plight of the colours. Highlands I believe are also at risk of loosing 'Silver' gene.  

As far as Red (Chestnut) Dun's they don't display the marking that well, but I've found a couple with clear markings: 












I don't really fancy going though the AI frozen semen direction, its expensive, comes with risks and at the end of the day the foal would never be worth the combined price and effort just to make it. There was going to have to be some kind of effort to create something that is currently lacking in the English breeding pool, but financially I can't risk a significant loss. even assuming I could produce a Dunalino Colt (which would be best outcome) his colour wouldn't be truly appreciated in this country, and not having the broodmare capable of producing a event type foal. he'd be limited in ability and prospects.


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## ester (30 January 2015)

I suppose the thing is that if you don't import you are really restricting the type you are going to be able to breed just for the colour. Icelandic perhaps?!

One of Rara's chestnuts does look a bit red dun, though it could just be countershading- dorsal stripe, leg barring and a slightly odd colour for a chestnut. He's a dutch riding pony with a high arab percentage. Hopefully she won't mind me adding a pic 







I think you can kind of see the leg shading on this one.


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## Meowy Catkin (30 January 2015)

I found one! 

http://www.aqha-uk.co.uk/classified-adverts/stallions-at-stud/2014/07/08/hawkwood-arizona/




			Hawkwood Arizona
Red Dun 4th June 2008 15.2hh
Sire: Toys Triple Chick &#8211; Dam: Duncrahill Wild Rose
		
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He's in North Wales. 


Also a chestnut Dun colt for sale. http://www.aqha-uk.co.uk/classified-adverts/foals/2014/11/12/billy-buck-hollywood2/


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## Cpt Stumpy (30 January 2015)

Gold Star for Faracat!!


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## Cpt Stumpy (5 March 2015)

Faracat said:



			I found one! 

http://www.aqha-uk.co.uk/classified-adverts/stallions-at-stud/2014/07/08/hawkwood-arizona/



He's in North Wales. 


Also a chestnut Dun colt for sale. http://www.aqha-uk.co.uk/classified-adverts/foals/2014/11/12/billy-buck-hollywood2/

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That is a awesome find, but I think the contact details are old :/ I've had no response. and a baby red dun is a little young to do the job I want


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## tabithakat64 (6 March 2015)

They have a faceache page, which there are some recent posts on, you could try that...


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## honetpot (6 March 2015)

T



Kallibear said:



			You'll hear all sorts of rubbish about Highland Pony colouring because most owners/breeders know nothing about colour genetics. Ask them if they're homozygous or heterozygous (or even just single or double) gene for grey and they think you're nuts. 

Cream dun can really be any colour that looks 'cream' coloured! Grey dun is usually a black dun that's greying out. Cream dun is usually bay dun that's greying out. But it could also be chestnut dun that's greying. I suppose that's why chestnut has somehow got 'lost' over the years. God forbid if you asked someone if their black highland pony (there are quite a few nowadays) is double black or is chestnut/black!  And grey is so prevalent an strong that there could be all sorts of colours hiding, they've just never been properly researched and tested. It's make a fascinating project.

I don't think there's any cream genes (actual cream, not 'cream dun' ) in Highlands as you never see palominos or cremello's or dunalinos etc. There is however some silvery stuff about in the Island ponies. And possibly panguare (sp?) as there's plenty of mealy muzzels about. It's at that point my knowledge of genetics run out!
		
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 There are chestnut Highland ponies, which usually come from Rhum blood lines, they tend to be smaller in size and have some beautiful colour shading including silver manes. FB Highland pony group has a photo of one of these. https://www.facebook.com/groups/4626919367/
Also http://www.brownbreadstud.com/page5.htm
  I have a double dilute Connemara, which used to be culled as they had no understanding that the dilute gene produced the dun Connemara, and often the greying gene had masked the dilute gene, which has been present in the breed way back in the stud book. Its sad that now everyone thinks a Connemara should be grey, I have three bay mares.
  Colour genetics is complicated, but the greying out gene washs out the horses base colour, so my pony was the product of a grey mare who obviously carried the dilute gene and a dun stallion , who's dilute gene was obvious.


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## Cpt Stumpy (6 March 2015)

The Rhum bloodlines are legend to the rare colour obsessed, but not for chestnut those mares are Silver black. 
I didn't realise till this year (after hunting for a red-dun through the Highland's FB groups first) That silver even existed in the Highlands. though its fast loosing ground there isn't a Silver highland stallion or colt to be found anymore. and those mares aren't young. their are odd silver's still about in the breed (both Black base and Bay) but for showing they are heavily looked down upon


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## keenbean (12 March 2015)

http://tomrick.moonfruit.com/patchy-white/4516005802

Patchy White may be what you are looking for?


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## dianchi (12 March 2015)

Silly question here.......

Why are you trying to breed a colour?
Seems the breed of horse here is irrelevant which i find a different approach to "usual" breeding.

Noo right or wrong here, was just intrigued by this colour need?


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## Cpt Stumpy (12 March 2015)

Sorry Patchy White is a Buckskin (no dun's in Connemara or Thoroughbred)

The Mare I'm using isn't a pure breed, she's a beautiful animal her only visual fault is slightly pigeon toed at the front, (I notice it but when she was shown locally the judge & assistant for her class didn't) She moves straight her legs are straight, with a easy and friendly personality. Placed on her first time showing. 
Being crossbred means their is no standard to breed her towards, her personality doesn't need improving on, Her minor fault wasn't passed on to her last foal. And if she had seen a farrier in her younger years I believe she wouldn't be pigeon toed. 

I have a passion of colours and in the UK Real Dun is rare, only found natively in Shetlands, Highlands and 4 Welsh A Pure Ponies. Your more likely to see True Dun in American/European imports. 
Dunalino is what I want to breed, because their aren't any in the UK certainly none you can find anyway. People like pretty colours, but they don't always like to be corrected. The Dun Welsh Ponies are facing extinction. There are no Dun Welsh Stallions or Colts. 

If I Did breed one, its bringing back a colour we're loosing in our native animals, Highlands are nearly all grey, and facing their own colour extinction (Silver gene) Shetlands are never really going to be a adults working horse/pony, and true dun's are still unusual. The Dun Welsh ponies are on the brink of extinction when you can count how many are left on one hand its safe to say they're beyond hope. 

If this thread has proven anything else other than I'm a fuss-pot for colour and genetics. its proven just How rare Dun really is.


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## millikins (12 March 2015)

I sympathise. I have a real dun, grulla though not chestnut and I too would like to find a dun stallion to breed her to. Before anyone jumps on me I would intend to keep a foal  If you can only find a couple of adult sized stallions, there are none at all in the 11-13hh size.


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## Kallibear (12 March 2015)

The problem with Rhum ponies is that, although they are technically a Highland Pony and do come in interesting colours,  they're not very 'highlandy'. They also often have white markings  They tend to look more like large Eriskay ponies. And therefore don't do well showing so aren't hugely sought after and therefore not 'mass produced'. I've spent quite a lot of time at Highland Pony shows over the last couple of years (the problems with having Highland Pony friends!)  and have see ONE potential chestnut (a dun filly foal who looked like she was greying out)


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## melbobineau (11 November 2015)

So have you found any True Dun stallion for your mare.

Indeed there isn't a lot of them. 
They are quite frequent in Fjords, Quarters, Highlands, Mustangs. 

But also 2 french breeds: 

- the henson (a saddle breed from the Baie de somme region with high influence of fjord blood crossed with saddle horses and thorowbreed. Hence a lot of them are bay dun without pangare or silver gene.

- the Poitevin. This a draft horse breed from my parents region (poitou charente) which share origine with shire/clyd as origine come from europe northem great horse cross with the local breed. The dun colour which is encouraged (specially grulla colour) comming probably from the spanish invasions. As they are bony instead of "meaty" they weren't made really heavier for the meat market after war. Altough this lead them to near extinction. And cross breed with other french draft horse to avoid inbreeding lead to make some of them a bit on the too heavy side. However by breeding a lighter one to a saddle horse or better a hot blood they made very good warmblood kind of horse but this cross is rare as most of the mare are used in the breeding of the breed or traditional mule poitevine (with a poitevin donkey).


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