# TB in people



## zsmm4 (20 April 2010)

Would like to open up a discussion about this. My uncle, as an adult, contracted TB from milk. He died. A year later my father was diagnosed with TB also. He had part of a lung removed and was convalesing for over  a year and was unable to return to his job due to these health issues. He had lost 4 other brothers and sisters as a child due to TB. This was in the 1940's and '50's. We now have anti biotics , but TB strains are becoming resilient. 
Last year,in our village,a neighbour came down with TB. She hadnt been in contact with any infected person ,nor had travelled abroad. She does have a paddock with a badger sett in it,and regulally exercises her dog in the paddock. 
Fortunately the anti biotics seemed to have worked for her, but she has had to endure ill-health. What would have happened if she had picked up a anti-biotic resilient strain?
Any one still not SUPPORT A BADGER CULL?


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## Amymay (20 April 2010)

Any one still not SUPPORT A BADGER CULL?
		
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I'm very much on the fence I'm afraid.  I don't understand enough of the science behind the thinking that badgers pose a risk to cows.  But at the moment I do feel very uncomfortable that many may be killed without (it would seem) hard scientific evidence to back up the cull.


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## jrp204 (20 April 2010)

Amymay, you are uncomfortable about badgers being killed without the evidence that they spread TB to cows but how comfortable are you about the 100 000's of cattle being slaughtered every year because they are reactors? 
A disease cannot be controlled unless ALL carriers are dealt with be them cattle badgers, deer, alpacas etc.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (20 April 2010)

A couple of TB facts -

In the UK, about 8,000 cases of TB are reported each year, but this number is rising slowly. Most of these cases are in large cities, particularly in London. 

TB is passed on from person to person by droplets carried in the air, usually from coughs and sneezes. Your body's immune system, which fights infection, usually destroys the germs once they are inhaled.

How can you be so sure the badger was the culprit?


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## jrp204 (20 April 2010)

TB in humans is usually M. tuberculosis where the 8000 cases/year may be correct where as Mycobacterium bovis (bovine TB) is much rarer but the number of cases appears to increasing steadily.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (20 April 2010)

Thanks for the reply.  I understand now


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## perfect11s (20 April 2010)

amymay said:



			I'm very much on the fence I'm afraid.  I don't understand enough of the science behind the thinking that badgers pose a risk to cows.  But at the moment I do feel very uncomfortable that many may be killed without (it would seem) hard scientific evidence to back up the cull.
		
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 Its simple realy badgers are cariers of TB so as they move about and oftern forrage around farms and livestock hence the TB is spread even to closed   herds of cattle...


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## Bedlam (20 April 2010)

Both my parents have had TB. My father contracted TB whilst on National Service in Malaya in the 50s. He recovered and is still fit and well aged 80ish.

My mother had TB relatively recently in the 90s. It's possible that she contracted it at work - she was a physiotherapist in a hospital in Kent that treats a fair amount of immigrants. The Health Authority contacted us to arrange chest x-rays and haef tests for us and the children. My GP told me not to bother because TB is a disease of malnutrition and poverty.....!!!! Not so if my Mum had it! We had the chest X-rays and the children had haef tests that came back negative. We refused the offer of a BCG jab for them at the time as we were about to head off on holiday, the children had already had a fair few travel vaccinations and they were relatively young. 

I now hear that school children are no longer routinely being given the BCG vaccine at 13 as we were. This would seem to be somewhat of a mistake. I am paying for my 2 to have them privately. I can only suppose that in a generation of unprotected people, TB will continue it's rise.


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## ceiron (20 April 2010)

badger culls have been proven ineffective unless all badgers are culled

then it becomes extinction not a cull

all culls do is encourage badgers to expand there territory into the culled badgers territory thus raising the spread of potentially tb infected badgers thus spreading tb.

so no i dont support a badger cull at all

esp as your just going on no evidence to support the claim that the person picked it up from badgers which is very unlikely

its like saying all cases of flu are bird or swine flu really


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## ester (20 April 2010)

To a certain extent I take the view that we cannot eradicate everything that doesn't suit us as a species, be that diseases or their carriers. There are plenty of things we could erradicate if we tried hard enough but we don't and am not sure that is always a bad thing. 

why don't we vaccinate cattle? I cant remember, is it that they would they then come up as reactors? Was discussing something similar earlier today as vaccines could be tagged so that you could tell and animal that was vaccinated could be shown to be different to one infected.


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## jrp204 (20 April 2010)

There was a case in Cornwall where it was thought the woman possibly picked up bTB through contact with badger urine, there was a sett in her garden/field so it would be possible to be in contact with urine without knowing it, her dog also contracted it.

It would only be extinction if every badger, everywhere was culled.

So, what is the answer? It is ok to kill infected cattle, which eliminates their aspect of cross contamination but we leave other infected species untouched. It's ok to leave infected badgers to infect other badgers and possibly other species such as deer, camelids etc and to also die a slow painful death. Its ok to ruin farmers livelihoods BUT we all want cheap food and cuddly badgers so maybe we should just get rid of the farmers and maybe live off the sodding badgers!


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## ChesnutsRoasting (20 April 2010)

Bedlam said:



			Hell, those BCG vaccs were bloody painful - at least we were excused from PE on that day still got the scar though

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## FestiveSpirit (20 April 2010)

However I phrase this I am afraid it will sound like I am xenophobic, but I will try and be factual:

I have seen reported (cannot remember the source) that TB is on the increase in humans in the UK.  It was suggested in the article I read that this was possibly due to the increase in immigration from (for example) Eastern European countries where there is no immunisation programme against TB.  

So badgers have very little to do with it IF that article is to be believed (and of course it would be useful IF I could remember where I had read it too!)


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## CorvusCorax (20 April 2010)

Was it the Daily...no, I won't go there


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## jrp204 (20 April 2010)

'Bovine TB is a zoonosis, i.e. an infection that can be transmitted from affected animals to people, causing a condition very similar to human TB. However, the risk to people contracting TB from cattle in Great Britain is considered very low. At present, less than 1% of all confirmed cases of TB in humans are due to infection with Mycobacterium bovis (M. bovis). This view is supported by the Health Protection Agency, who identify the current risk posed by M. bovis to human health as negligible.' http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/diseases/atoz/tb/human/index.htm


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## zsmm4 (20 April 2010)

Interestingly, I think, if my pet animal,cat,dog,horse,pony,alpaca,cow came down with TB it would be destroyed. But the badgers in the area [ there are many badger setts in our locality including a big one in nextdoors paddock] would be left to roam freely infecting other farm animals and pets,and potentialy humans. Doesnt make sense to me.


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## FestiveSpirit (20 April 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Was it the Daily...no, I won't go there 

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No it bl**dy wasnt, I dont read that ***


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## CorvusCorax (20 April 2010)

Whatever......


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (20 April 2010)

I am not sure of the exact details; but there was a case somewhere here in the Westcountry about a lady who worked for a vet who'd contracted TB from close contact with her dog, who'd got it from going down a Badger's hole. Because she worked for the vets (think she was something to do with laboratory work, so ideally placed) she was able to give clinical "proof" that this had happened. 

However, it all went very quiet about it and nothing else was heard about it. I think it was reported in the Western Morning News and it would have been a couple of years ago now.


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## FestiveSpirit (20 April 2010)

Here you go, this is what the Department of Health have to say about it

http://www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh...@dh/@en/documents/digitalasset/dh_4090456.pdf

I would particularly draw your attention to page 6:

"In the short term, even with the more concerted action described in this plan, there will be
no immediate reduction in the total number of new TB cases reported each year. They may
even rise because:
 firstly, TB is so common in certain parts of the world that we must expect a continuing
influx into this country of people who were infected or developed the disease abroad.
Our aim, as with everyone with TB, is to detect their infection or disease and ensure
they receive effective treatment
 secondly, many people born or settled in this country have dormant (latent) TB as
a result of infection they originally caught months or even years ago. They may still
develop the disease in older age or if another disease weakens their immunity
 thirdly, the total number of cases reflects the size of the population groups most at risk
of TB, and some of these groups are increasing in size"


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## jrp204 (21 April 2010)

Gazehound, the DH Gov.report is on M. tuberculosis (the primary agent of TB in humans), I'm pretty sure the reported case mentioned was Mycobacterium bovis (responsible for TB in cattle and other mammals)


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## FestiveSpirit (21 April 2010)

Oh right, sorry, I was just pointing out where I had got the info about increased cases of TB in humans due to immigration from other countries


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## lillith (21 April 2010)

I had TB, it is a pretty horrible thing, although I was pre-symptomatic so it was the antibiotics that knocked me out. Really nasty.

Anyway I have yet to see concrete evidence that culling badgers reduces the number of bovine TB cases in the area, as people have said it has been argued that it simply increases the movement of the remaining badgers. Could a serious vaccination programme for badgers work? capture, vaccinate and release? or can they still carry it when vaccinated?

As for cattle we have a passport system don't we? how about vaccination then record it on the passport and only test animals that arent vaccinated? or again can they carry the disease when vaccinated?

We managed to eradicate rabies so we should be able to do the same for TB.


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## ester (21 April 2010)

afaik long term vaccine trials have been taking place so they don't know yet.


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## the watcher (21 April 2010)

The problem is partly that the political will to deal with this kind of disease has been eroded. There was a time (25 years ago i grant you) when every dead Badger would be reported and a proportion of them would be retreived and tested to assess the spread of disease. 

this hasn't happed, to my knowledge, for many years - partly possibly because of a cut in funding, partly possibly to politically appease the bunny huggers, partly because urban dwellers simply don't care - bovine TB is not a priority for them.

My view is that there should be a cull and those animals remaining should receive a vaccine - don't see it happening though


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## jrp204 (21 April 2010)

You CANNOT vaccinate an infected animal of any species, you could capture, test, cull any infected animals and then vaccinate the uninfected. So EVERY species that can carry the infection (badgers, cattle ((already culling infected annimals)), camelids, deer, moles, mink rats and ferrets) would potentially have to go through the same procedure, although whether they all spread the infection as efficiently as badgers and cattle is yet to be proved. We are managing bTB in cattle but without the same being done with the badgers there is little disease control. 
Rabies was controlled because it is usually fatal and was less easy to spread.
For those who don't want to see the badgers touched, what is the answer? Its ok to kill cattle but not the badgers, where is the logic in that.


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## jrp204 (21 April 2010)

Farmers want and need an answer, we are not all blood thirsty, badger haters, but business people who are losing money and many years work in breeding programmes because governments for years have run and hidden from this contentious issue.


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## Orangehorse (21 April 2010)

Scientists have been working to find a vaccine for bovine TB for YEARS,  There is a trial of a badger vacine going ahead this year.  But quite how they are going to catch all the badgers in the area?
All cattle infected with TB are slaughtered, all cattle are tested before movement to other farms.  So where is the infection coming from?  At the moment we are chasing after it not getting in front and stopping it.  Alpacas can die from the infectin within a month but they are not tested as they cost a lot and think of the compensation.  They also breathe out the infection before they die, unlike cattle who encaspulate it (we had a TB test last week!).

At least the present regime is keeping a lot of vets in work and keeping quite a lot of DEFRA officials in work too.


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## flyingfeet (21 April 2010)

What about all the deer? They are TB carriers too 

I think badgers should have their protection removed, as there appear to be more round here than foxes and no one has considered how their numbers get controlled (other than by getting squished on the road). Its the same with deer, huge herds are now roaming and not that many people bother controlling them either. 

However I do believe the spread in Human TB is from immigrants rather than wildlife. As others have said other countries have no TB policy and also people come to the UK for free treatment of TB. 

So in short - shoot the badger, deer and immigrants  

In all seriousness should we not get people wishing to live in the UK to get a health check up first?


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## Tiggy1 (21 April 2010)

We have lost no end of cattle through TB. the last lot taken was about 35. The compensation is not very much also a neighbour now has it in their pigs and they won't recieve any compensation.
I am very much in favour of a badger cull or vaccine trial


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## Tiggy1 (21 April 2010)

ORANGEHORSE said:



			Scientists have been working to find a vaccine for bovine TB for YEARS,  There is a trial of a badger vacine going ahead this year.  But quite how they are going to catch all the badgers in the area?
All cattle infected with TB are slaughtered, all cattle are tested before movement to other farms.  So where is the infection coming from?  At the moment we are chasing after it not getting in front and stopping it.  Alpacas can die from the infectin within a month but they are not tested as they cost a lot and think of the compensation.  They also breathe out the infection before they die, unlike cattle who encaspulate it (we had a TB test last week!).

At least the present regime is keeping a lot of vets in work and keeping quite a lot of DEFRA officials in work too.
		
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Lots of Spanish vets!!!


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## CorvusCorax (21 April 2010)

You guys have all those Spanish vets too????? How funny!


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## lillith (22 April 2010)

Thanks for the info, still not sure why we can't vaccinate all cows and brand/freezebrand/tag them or stamp the passport afterwards, can a vaccinated animal carry the disease? or is it just because of the testing, if it is that then the branding or whatever should cover it. I seem to remember it being related to export of meat though?


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## martlin (22 April 2010)

lillith said:



			Thanks for the info, still not sure why we can't vaccinate all cows and brand/freezebrand/tag them or stamp the passport afterwards, can a vaccinated animal carry the disease? or is it just because of the testing, if it is that then the branding or whatever should cover it. I seem to remember it being related to export of meat though?
		
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I'm not sure if it possible or not, but I would imagine the cost would be prohibitive


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## lillith (22 April 2010)

"I'm not sure if it possible or not, but I would imagine the cost would be prohibitive"

more prohibitive than the cost of shooting the animals and offering conmpensation? seriously the vaccination would cost more than the animal is worth?

Ok just read that and it sounds a bit confrontational, I don't mean it like that just surprised thats all.


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## martlin (22 April 2010)

lillith said:



			"I'm not sure if it possible or not, but I would imagine the cost would be prohibitive"

more prohibitive than the cost of shooting the animals and offering conmpensation? seriously the vaccination would cost more than the animal is worth?

Ok just read that and it sounds a bit confrontational, I don't mean it like that just surprised thats all.
		
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No, probably not more than culling cows and offering compensation, although when you consider that the reactors still enters human food chain, so the meat is still sold...
I would imagine that the cost burden of vaccinations would be put on farmers.


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## Orangehorse (22 April 2010)

I think the reason that cattle are not vacinated against bovine TB is that there isn't a suitable vaccine, it hasn't been possible to make one yet.

Bovine TB was all but eradicated back in the 1970's (? not 100% sure of date), there was a very small area where there were some still infected BADGERS in Gloucestershire. (All infected cattle being slaughtered after testing so the infected cattle were removed)  All other parts of the UK were TB free.  Then for some (political/welfare) reason the Government stopped badger culling.  Also the badger became a protected species, also farmers started growing maize for cattle feed, also the winters became milder.

Gradually bovine TB spread into more and more areas, starting with the West Country - Gloucestershire (surprise), Devon, Cornwall and then into Worcestershire, Herefordshire, Wales,etc. etc. etc.   There are still parts of the country which does not have TB in cattle.

Cattle are regularly tested for TB.  It is a pretty accurate test, there are more false negatives than false positives.  If the report comes back No Visible Lesions it doesn't mean that it hasn't got TB, it has, it just hasn't developed that far.  If a cow has TB it is slaughtered, no matter what its age or pedigree.  You cannot sell cattle off the farm, unless for slaughter, until you have a clear test.  If you are a dairy farmer you can loose several pedigree milking cows, so you are loosing the milk production, you cannot sell your calves so you have to keep and feed them rather than sell and get some cash flow.
This is why TB is so devastating.  Compensation is paid for the cattle at a set rate but not for lost production.

I cannot understand why people (i.e. the general public, badger groups, politicians) can't grasp the idea that there is an underlying source of infection and until it is removed cattle herds are going to be reinfected again and again.  There is some minor spread cattle to cattle, but it isn't that infective between cattle.  Typically we have had one or two cases, they came with it fromt he previous farm, and spent the whole winter in close proximity with the rest of the cattle but did not infect them.

HUMAN TB is increasing slightly, but as before, from other infected humans.  There is a slight risk of BOVINE TB infecting humans, but since milk is now pasturised there is only a slight risk.  I wouldn't drink unpasturised milk no matter how organic it is.  

Bovine TB is killing a lot of cattle, affecting a lot of farmers (making many give up dairy farming) and costing the country £millions.  Keeping the vets busy though.


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