# Aggressive stable behaviour... Help!



## BRM (28 April 2015)

I have a horse on loan who is aggressive when in his stable.
He doesn't enjoy being turned out for long and waits by the gate to be bought back in.
When ridden he is excellent, no problems there at all.
I'm quite new to horse care although I have ridden for a while longer so I'm sure that my inexperience isn't helping.
The staff at the yard tell me that I need to show his who's boss, they never have any trouble with him. 
I don't want to give up on him, but could do with some advice if anyone has any please


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## PorkChop (28 April 2015)

Have you asked the owner if this is "normal" behaviour for him?

I agree that acting in a confident, consistent manner helps with bolshy horses.


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## BRM (28 April 2015)

Hi, yes this is normal. I was made fully aware which is why I'm loaning before buying.

In terms of confidence do you mean body language and mannerisms? I am guilty of moving away when he swings his back end round towards me and prances about but I do tell him off and move him sideways despite the pinned back ears! Lol


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## AengusOg (28 April 2015)

It sounds as if he is lining you up for a double barrel. Be very careful.

I don't agree with showing him who's boss. Very much will depend on why he's acting this way. If he has had a doing in his stable at some point, he will be showing aggression out of fear. Taking a strong arm approach will only make things worse in such a case.

Remember that you are working with him in a small space, and that if he cannot move away in order to feel comfortable he may resort to aggression to find release.


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## BRM (28 April 2015)

Thank you, do you have any advise on how I can go about identifying the cause?


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## old hand (29 April 2015)

put a headcollar on fro outside the stable.  make him walk back wards and stand still before you enter. When he does it praise him, not in a submissive way though, scratch his favourite bit of his neck or whatever he likes.  Give him instructions and keep hold of the rope in your hand at all times so that you keep his head not his heels towards you.  I find it helps to organise all my grooming kit etc so that it is near the door .  Some grumpy horses just communicate in this way,  getting cross rather than firm with them is just like joining in and escalates the behaviour.  Just be very firm, if you say go back and he doesn't shove him back firmly, when he does it praise him.  be consistent and he will improve but never turn your back on him or let him turn his heels at you.  Cause is that he is bullying you and has got way with it before with someone else.  Finding excuses for him won't help you a change of your attitude to boss will.  Sorry to be blunt but this type of horse can be very dangerous if they get the upper hand but are often your best mate once they respect you.


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## BRM (29 April 2015)

Thank you, I will try to follow all of your advice  I'm not sure a head collar from outside the stable would work though as he rarely has his head over/by the door.

I really don't want to give up on him, he's obviously behaving this way for a reason. Guess I'm just having a crisis of confidence!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 April 2015)

He is not clear who is in charge, so wants to make it clear to you that he is!
Just tie him up when you want to do anything and if problem persists but he is fine with others then get instruction from an experienced instructor. He s not a pet, he has to be told what to do, and when, when it suits you, not him.
Keep yourself forward of the girth and he can;t kick you, handle in a bridle if you need to, but not when releasing in to the field as he might get teeth caught in bit. Be formal, be consistent, be strict.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 April 2015)

BRM said:



			Thank you, I will try to follow all of your advice  I'm not sure a head collar from outside the stable would work though as he rarely has his head over/by the door.

I really don't want to give up on him, he's obviously behaving this way for a reason. Guess I'm just having a crisis of confidence!
		
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The reason is he has not learned to behave, get an instructor as you both need education and a stricter routine, cut out all sugars and no treats, if you want a pet pony, there are plenty of them, this is not one.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 April 2015)

BRM said:



			Hi, yes this is normal. I was made fully aware which is why I'm loaning before buying.

In terms of confidence do you mean body language and mannerisms? I am guilty of moving away when he swings his back end round towards me and prances about but I do tell him off and move him sideways despite the pinned back ears! Lol
		
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Don t let him do that. It is rather obvious he will kick you if he takes the notion. You should either sort the problem or send him back.
He does not respect you, and is warning you that he will kick, this is not acceptable and it sounds as though owner is pretty clueless. I would not expect him to be properly schooled if this is the case.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 April 2015)

BRM said:



			Thank you, I will try to follow all of your advice  I'm not sure a head collar from outside the stable would work though as he rarely has his head over/by the door.

I really don't want to give up on him, he's obviously behaving this way for a reason. Guess I'm just having a crisis of confidence!
		
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When you open the door ask him to come to you, don't chase him round the stable giving him opportunity to kick you.
And turn him out 24/7, whether he likes it or not. You dictate what he does, not him.


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## Palindrome (29 April 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			When you open the door ask him to come to you, don't chase him round the stable giving him opportunity to kick you.
And turn him out 24/7, whether he likes it or not. You dictate what he does, not him.
		
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I would try the 24/7 turnout too, all year if possible so he doesn't expect to come in. Be very careful, a kick can be very damaging to you.


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## twiggy2 (29 April 2015)

give him back and don't buy him


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## BRM (29 April 2015)

Thanks for the advice everyone. Glad to hear that I'm not just being a wimp. I will get support from an experienced tutor for the time I still have him and if there is no improvement I'll have to give him back


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## 9tails (29 April 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			Don t let him do that. It is rather obvious he will kick you if he takes the notion. You should either sort the problem or send him back.
He does not respect you, and is warning you that he will kick, this is not acceptable and it sounds as though owner is pretty clueless. I would not expect him to be properly schooled if this is the case.
		
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OP has already stated she's inexperienced in handling.  I expect she's hoping for tips on how to not allow him to do this aggressive stuff rather than be told to sort it.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 April 2015)

9tails said:



			OP has already stated she's inexperienced in handling.  I expect she's hoping for tips on how to not allow him to do this aggressive stuff rather than be told to sort it.
		
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Yes, I know, I have other posts, but she needs to "man  up". Iif she is a wimp he will not get anywhere. It is fine to  "man up" but she needs to learn how to do it. If she expects him to behave properly due to her "lovely persona" It will not work.


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## 9tails (29 April 2015)

Yes, but "man up" has different connotations to different people.  She's already been told to "show him who's boss" so I suspect she's in a "whack him" yard.  

OP, body language is very important but you need to make sure you cease immediately you get the response you're looking for and praise when he gets it right.  I started with a finger pressed into my mare's chest for a backwards step and immediately took it away when I got that step.  Now I only need to lift a finger for a backwards step or even 10 steps but it's not an overnight result.  I find that less is more, horses are really strong and heavy so try not to give him something to lean into.  You've less chance of moving him over with your shoulder than you do with the tip of your finger.

Also, to OP, wear a hat and BP with steel toecap boots for safety.


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## madlady (29 April 2015)

You say that the staff at the yard don't have problems with him - how long has he been on that yard and has he always shown that type of behaviour in the stable?  If he has then chances are something has happened to him in a stable in the past and it might not be something that you can fix - it may end up being something that you have to get used to dealing with with this horse.

If he is being defensive and threatening in his stable then I'd put a headcollar on him and tie him up somewhere outside - he'll feel safer because he won't feel cornered and there is more room for you to move around him and get out of the way.

I'd ask the yard staff if you can watch and see how they handle him in the stable - it could be that some are being overly 'firm' and making him feel more defensive of his space.  You need to be calm and confident and consistent, yes he will need to get used to you but (provided he is not genuinely nasty) once he understands what you expect of him I would imagine you will see a change.  The next time you are going into the stable take a deep breath, shoulders back and plaster a smile on your face.  Go in with the attitude that he will do as you ask and have every confidence that he will.

Yes it would be better if he was out 24/7 but the fact that he isn't is the owners decision and personally I'd concentrate on establishing the best ways to work with him and getting to know him before making any radical changes.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 April 2015)

If  OP has any sense she will walk away if she has  no control over his management and no idea how to sort his behaviour.


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## Palindrome (29 April 2015)

ah OP you are getting lots of different advice, I guess that shows there are lots of approaches and is not an easily sorted problem. To me being aggressive in the stable tells me the horse is unhappy and reluctant to do what you have come for, either work or being turned out as you said he doesn't like to be out. And I think that's the key to the problem.
If you try to make friends you won't get the headcollar on him, if you are bossy you might get away with it until one day he takes you by surprise and could send you to hospital. At least if he is out he will be looking forward to being caught and go for a groom/feed/work and associate you with something positive.


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## splashgirl45 (29 April 2015)

madlady said:



			You say that the staff at the yard don't have problems with him - how long has he been on that yard and has he always shown that type of behaviour in the stable?  If he has then chances are something has happened to him in a stable in the past and it might not be something that you can fix - it may end up being something that you have to get used to dealing with with this horse.

If he is being defensive and threatening in his stable then I'd put a headcollar on him and tie him up somewhere outside - he'll feel safer because he won't feel cornered and there is more room for you to move around him and get out of the way.

I'd ask the yard staff if you can watch and see how they handle him in the stable - it could be that some are being overly 'firm' and making him feel more defensive of his space.  You need to be calm and confident and consistent, yes he will need to get used to you but (provided he is not genuinely nasty) once he understands what you expect of him I would imagine you will see a change.  The next time you are going into the stable take a deep breath, shoulders back and plaster a smile on your face.  Go in with the attitude that he will do as you ask and have every confidence that he will.

Yes it would be better if he was out 24/7 but the fact that he isn't is the owners decision and personally I'd concentrate on establishing the best ways to work with him and getting to know him before making any radical changes.
		
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this is good advice.....we had a pony at the riding school I worked at who was very defensive in the stable he bit loads of people but if you went in quickly and put headcoller on and bought him outside he was an angel..we suspected that he has been ill treated before and he never forgot..my friend bought him and kept him mostly out and he was lovely to handle,, this may be similar and you have to find a safe way to handle him or walk away....


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## Pearlsasinger (29 April 2015)

I bought a horse with a reputation for biting.  I knew that if I couldn't cure it I would be able to work round this because I have plenty of experience.  
When I got her home, I realised that the tack which I bought with her didn't fit.  Amongst other things, her browband was too short and squashed her ears.  She was very nervous of people in the stable, especially if there was more than one person.  I think that she had been hit for biting when she objected to the ill-fitting tack.  Needless to say, I changed her tack and taught her that she could have it put on carefully and sympathetically and didn't need to bite.  4 yrs later, she is a brilliant communicator of her needs and one of the most affectionate horses I have ever met.  And yes, she is a pet, amongst other things.  
I have also had a mare who was very proud of her food because she had been kept hungry in a previous home (I was told this by the vendor).  Again she learned that she did not need to be defensive about her food.
OP,  I think that you are right to wonder why the horse is aggressive/defensive because when you work that out, you will be well on the way to curing him.  Is there someone at your yard who is not of the 'just be firm' attitude who can help you to find the triggers for his behaviour, whilst helping you to stay safe?
IMO those who listen to what their horses are trying to tell them make better horsemen/women than those who insist on dominating their horses.


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## Barnacle (2 May 2015)

I've been working with a difficult stallion for the last few months and let me tell you the "whack it" approach will not help you - it is the source of many of these problems as it produces a defensive horse (not that anyone here has suggested that - but it sounds like some people at your yard may take this approach). 

Do you do any groundwork with him? I would start doing lots of it if not - and more if you do... Groundwork establishes respect but also trust. Horses that are worked from the ground are more responsive and calmer around their handlers (according to heart-rate monitors). So before you try to do any riding, put a headcollar on, lead him out and do some lunging, backing up, half-passes (whatever his level is) from the ground. Then lead him into his stall and back out again, as if it's all part of the groundwork routine - until the box stops being "his" special space and it becomes just another place of work. Practice transitions not just in the arena or wherever you ride but absolutely everywhere in the yard, from the ground. Make him stand, back him up, walk on, back up, stand, wait etc. Once he gets the idea that you want him to be "working" even when he's walking on the lead - whenever you are with him - things will change. It may take days - but once he gets that idea, he will stay focused on you and all that aggression will go away.


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## Louiseandmaddie (21 May 2015)

Hi
 In my experience and I'm sitting here with black legs at the moment after being kicked badly by my horse is if you have the option of sending him back then I would! I know it sounds harsh but if your having problems now your confidence is only going to dwindle and the situation will get worse. There are plenty of nice horses out there without getting one with already ingrained problems that you probably can't fix if your honest with yourself. Spend your money wisely and go and find your new best friend not load yourself with a unsuitable unsellable horse that you can't do anything with, and have to GIVE him away as a problem horse, and start your search again, after all isn't this why you were sensible enough to loan him before you committed to buying him. 

Send him back and go and enjoy looking for your new best friend, there are plenty of nice horses out there!! 

Good Luck x


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 May 2015)

Louiseandmaddie said:



			Hi
 In my experience and I'm sitting here with black legs at the moment after being kicked badly by my horse is if you have the option of sending him back then I would! I know it sounds harsh but if your having problems now your confidence is only going to dwindle and the situation will get worse. There are plenty of nice horses out there without getting one with already ingrained problems that you probably can't fix if your honest with yourself. Spend your money wisely and go and find your new best friend not load yourself with a unsuitable unsellable horse that you can't do anything with, and have to GIVE him away as a problem horse, and start your search again, after all isn't this why you were sensible enough to loan him before you committed to buying him. 

Send him back and go and enjoy looking for your new best friend, there are plenty of nice horses out there!! 

Good Luck x
		
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I have worked with hundreds of horses and rarely got kicked [certainly not by an aggressive horse], but mostly when in a field situation with a bunch of loose horses. I have had occasion to wear a skull cap and gloves and handle in a bridle and so on, but as long as I am in control of the front end, the back legs are out of the way.
Neither the OP nor anyone else should not put them selves in a situation where they can get kicked, that is really the answer. If OP is not able to handle the horse at the moment, then she either sends it back or she learns how to handle it.
In case anyone thinks I use force, I do not, I had to look after  two or three horses who had ejected their former grooms, from "their stable" and it was all done with what people choose to call bonding, and I call horsemanship.


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## SpringArising (21 May 2015)

AengusOg said:



			I don't agree with showing him who's boss. Very much will depend on why he's acting this way. If he has had a doing in his stable at some point, he will be showing aggression out of fear. Taking a strong arm approach will only make things worse in such a case.
		
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There isn't another way of rectifying this behaviour. I don't think anyone's suggesting she go in the stable all guns blazing and waving whips in his face, but the horse does need some sort of firm, consistent handling. He's acting up because he's unsettled, doesn't know whether he's coming or going and doesn't know where and what the boundaries are. She doesn't need to smack him, she just needs to ignore the bad and praise the good. 

My old horse used to swing on me in the stable. I started off by only bringing him out to feed him - he learnt that coming out of the stable = good things. I slowly stopped the feeding once he improved. Are you working him enough? Boredom and pent up energy won't help things either. 



Bonkers2 said:



			Iif she is a wimp he will not get anywhere. It is fine to  "man up" but she needs to learn how to do it. If she expects him to behave properly due to her "lovely persona" It will not work.
		
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Agree with this. Man up doesn't mean turn evil. Faffy, faffy, lovey-dovey just doesn't work for horses like this.


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## Princess16 (21 May 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			Yes, I know, I have other posts, but she needs to "man  up". Iif she is a wimp he will not get anywhere. It is fine to  "man up" but she needs to learn how to do it. If she expects him to behave properly due to her "lovely persona" It will not work.
		
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Bonkers every time you post you tell people to 'man up' second post I've read on a thread by you today saying the same thing ! FGS she wants help and advice not being told to man up in an aggressive manner !


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## zara-190 (21 May 2015)

Hi, I have an aggressive horse and have done for 9 years! Would I part with him? Never.  

I would suggest finding someone with "equine behavioural" experience and do some ground work with him.  My horse quickly learned that he could push me about, threaten me and do just as he wanted.  His main problem is biting and he uses his teeth to keep you away etc.  The trainer I found probably saved both his and my life as I had got to the end of my tether and I had got sick of everyone on the yard telling me what I should do!  I mastered the art of clicker training and he quickly learned to back away, look away, play fetch etc.  Has his behaviour changed? No.  Does he still bite? Yes.  Does he scare me? Sometimes.  Can I manage him? Yes.

Remember to stay safe.  Always put a headcollar on and never stay in his stable without him wearing one.  Watch him and study "the signs", he is yelling at you, you just need to recognise it.  Never put yourself in a vulnerable position ie standing behind him etc.  My horse's favourite time to bite is when you're doing his front rug straps and he gets your upper arm! I go in very close, with his head over my shoulder but I'm still watchfull.  Keep your elbow up so if he does go to bite you can block him. Never hand feed treats unless you're clicker training and he gets a reward. Try to ignore the bad behaviour and praise the good, never punish him physically.  I would love to say "and don't shout at him" but I would be a hypocrit as my horse does get shouted at and he knows when he's done something wrong.

Most of all you need to develop a bond and mutual respect; it can take years but i wouldn't change my boy for the world.

Good luck x


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## AengusOg (21 May 2015)

SpringArising said:



			There isn't another way of rectifying this behaviour. .
		
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Or you haven't found one.

All horses benefit from consistent handling if it is tailored to their individual needs.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 May 2015)

Princess16 said:



			Bonkers every time you post you tell people to 'man up' second post I've read on a thread by you today saying the same thing ! FGS she wants help and advice not being told to man up in an aggressive manner !
		
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If you read my posts I said be fair and be consistent, and don't let a horse get in to a position where it can kick you. I said nothing about using aggression. Do you really think these horses would be like this if they were being handled properly?
PS I have used the expression twice today, [and I don't usually post on these types of thread]  because the problem is the same, I am being both fair and consistent .
PPS I don't believe in clicker training with horses who are already mugging their handler for food, and people seem to  expect someone with no clicker experience to use this in a difficult situation. Confident handling in a halter by an experienced handler is probably all that is required. If the owner can't manage it herself she should ask someone to show her how to do it.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 May 2015)

9tails said:



			OP has already stated she's inexperienced in handling.  I expect she's hoping for tips on how to not allow him to do this aggressive stuff rather than be told to sort it.
		
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I have given her tips. I am now trying to make sure she does not get kicked.


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## Apercrumbie (21 May 2015)

OP this is sortable.  One of the problems is that everyone has a different definition of 'be firm'.  For some, this is yelling, whacking etc.  For others, this is giving clear instructions in a confident manner and expecting to be listened to.  What you need to aim for is the latter.  Firstly, think of your safety.  For the time being, always wear gloves, a hat and solid boots while handling.  Even wear a body protector if it makes you feel confident.  Think about your body language.  Stand up straight with your head high, you don't need to have an aggressive body language, particularly in the stable where you might make him defensive, but equally you don't want to be passive.  Many horses are bolshy in the stable - my theory is that being in such an enclosed space is stressful for a flight animal.  Personally I would catch him by the door and do all grooming/tacking up outside.  If this isn't an option, keep a hold of the lead rope so he can't swing his bum round.  Don't spend ages messing around - just do the bare essentials and praise him when he's good.  Far better that he behaves for 4 minutes and ends on a good note than behaves for 10 and then gets bolshy again.  Do some research on pressure release so you can move him around easily.  Definitely get an instructor too as they will be able to teach you some techniques.


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## fburton (22 May 2015)

What Apercrumbie wrote is hard to improve on.

I'm really not a fan of phrases like "be firm", "show him who's boss" or even "getting respect" and "leadership" because they mean different things to different people. Words like "clear", "consistent" and "confident"(?) are a bit more objective, in my opinion. Anyway, it is almost never necessary or desirable to act aggressively, to yell or whack, when handling horses - with the possible exception of emergencies where anything goes in order to keep yourself and others safe (although these will be vanishingly rare if one is careful and sensible).


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