# Aggressive dog - to rehome or pts?



## angela_l_b (30 March 2010)

We have an awful decision to make over our dog - she's a 5 year old GSD / rottie who we got as a rescue 4 years ago. She was never good with other dogs and despite trying 4 different trainers and sending her away to 'boot camp' for weeks of intensive training (we went too) she is still aggressive. We are generally able to control it when on the lead but we have to be on the ball all the time. If another dog comes along which we haven't seen then she'll go for it, and she's a big strong dog to try and hold. If we see another dog before she does, we can get her attention using the techniques we learnt on boot camp, and generally the situation stays under control - but it doesn't make walks very relaxing or pleasant. She has become much worse since we had a baby in January - her protective instincts have kicked in.

There have been 3 serious incidents with her. Once the garden gate was left open and we didn't see it - she mooched out onto the road and a dog was passing and she attacked it - it needed a lot of stitches (it was only a miniature Schnauzer, poor thing) but eventually was ok. This was when we sent her away for training as a last resort.

Then a while ago she bit the neighbour's dog - we gave her the benefit of the doubt on this occasion as the other dog put her head through the fence into our garden.

Yesterday we were visiting my mother-in-law, who has a dog she has known for years and previously was ok with, but she attacked him very aggressively. My husband was near enough to stop her before she did any damage, but she was trying to hurt him, even though she knew that he was no threat to her or us. 

We have realised that she is beyond our control and that it is only a matter of time before she does damage to another dog. We live in a busy village with dogs passing all the time as we are on the footpath to the river, and I can't guarantee that the gate will never be left open again for the rest of her life - or that we manage to control her for every moment on a walk. Our only alternative is to muzzle her at all times when she is out of the house - we do use a muzzle when walking but she still tries to attack, which isn't pleasant for the other dog or owner. 

Does anyone think that there is a possibility of finding another home for her where she is unlikely to meet another dog (in the middle of nowhere, perhaps?). My only hope is that a new owner might be able to be dominant over her from the start, which we failed to do, meaning that she has felt that she needs to protect us and herself. 

It seems to me that noone would really want a dog like this. Should we just have her pts, even though it breaks our hearts? I should say that she is beautifully behaved at home and very good with people, children and horses. If she had ever shown aggression towards people she would have been pts a long time ago. 

Any thoughts or ideas would be very welcome. I realise we have made a lot of mistakes and that we have unintentionally created a huge problem, and do accept the blame for this - we are trying to do the best thing in an awful situation, so please be constructive only. 

Thank you. Sorry this is so long.


----------



## BBH (30 March 2010)

What a horrible situation to find yourself in. I really don't envy you at all with such a decision. My first thoughts i have to be honest were to PTS as a dog like that is no fun, but when I read she is fine with humans, kids etc I had second thoughts. 

I wold definitely keep her muzzled and on the lead when she is walked but if she is fine at home I probably give her the benefit of the doubt however,

if I ever saw any signs of aggression with the baby as he / she grows i'm afraid the dog would be PTS.

So sorry,

xx


----------



## BigRed (30 March 2010)

I know that people will shoot me down for this, but yes, I do think you should do the responsible thing and have her pts.  

I know its not the dogs fault and that some early experiences have "damaged" her.  I also think you have tried very hard to resolve this problem. But if one of my dogs consistently went for other dogs and actually bit them, I would not hesitate to have them pts.  

Saying that the dog is fine with people is not acceptable, what if someone tries to intervene between your dog and theirs - they are very likely to get bitten - do you really want that on your conscience ?


----------



## Maesfen (30 March 2010)

I wouldn't have thought there was a need to even ask.  I agree with tracey01 completely.
A child could be in the firing line next, do you really want that to happen?


----------



## Amymay (30 March 2010)

I would PTS.


----------



## MurphysMinder (30 March 2010)

I'm sorry but I too think pts would be best.  I am not of the opinion that if a dog is aggressive with other dogs it may one day attack a child, however, as your baby gets bigger and starts walking there is a chance she might get in the middle of a fight.  It sounds like you have done everything you can to overcome this problem, without success.  You have a combination of 2 strong breeds there (don't get me started on such crosses) and the capablity is there for her to do some serious damage to another dog.


----------



## spike123 (30 March 2010)

I'm afraid I also agree with pts. The dog has proven already that it has some serious issues and can be aggressive with other dogs.I also don't think the dog would deliberately harm your child but as already said she could at some point be in the wrong situation with the dog and get bitten as a result.You have tried your best and sought expert help which has been unsuccessful.Rehoming her into the middle of nowhere while it may suit her to a degree is unlikely to be the right thing to do as there is the possibility that she may well show agression in some other way and end up harming someone and being passed on again into an unsuitable situation.


----------



## ChesnutsRoasting (30 March 2010)

Have read your post several times and really feel for you, a really awful situation to be in.

You have had professional help regarding her aggressive behaviour, to no avail.  Since the birth of your baby her aggression is escalating and she's become unpredicatable.  For me, personally, I would put her to sleep.  You and your family must come first.  Even though she has not deliberately attacked people, I would be very concerned having a baby and a dog with that nature in the house.  Take comfort that you have tried to sort her and given her chances that many wouldn't have.  Sometimes you have accept that with all the will in the world, you cannot fix some dogs.


----------



## Miss Marple (30 March 2010)

Do you not know any one that needs a yard dog? 

i.e. my livery yard owner has 2 GSD guard dogs - they only go out at night after all the liveries have left and the owners put them away first thing in the morning and its good luck to any intruders!!


----------



## abercrombie&titch (30 March 2010)

What a very sad tale... you have clearly tried all the things normally recommended. A new baby in the family often changes things in a dogs perspective - in this case not in a constructive way. Unless you are able to find a very specialist home I don't think rehoming is an option.


----------



## FinnishLapphund (30 March 2010)

I understand that it makes it even more difficult for you to decide to euthanise her when she is well behaved in all other ways, but after 4 trainers and weeks at 'boot camp', you've done more than many others in similar situations that I've heard about. 
Yes, you've probably made mistakes with her, but I don't know one dog owner who hasn't done any mistakes with their dogs. I've soon been a dog owner for almost 20 years and I still  make new mistakes, I'm happy as long as I manage to avoid not making the same mistake twice. 


I think I once told CaveCanem that I thought her dog sensed that she tensed when she anticipated his reaction, no matter how, her Bodo is a different dog now. As I understand, one of the things she began with, was to sing for herself when she saw another dog. When she began to pretended as if, either, other dogs didn't exist or if they did, her dog had no problems with them, Bodo couldn't build up the same aggression as he had became used to do, because CC was no longer, unknowingly, sending him signals that the situation was something to become tense about. 

After all, when you see another dog, will you not begin to think about how your bitch will react next? The problem is that she does not know that your concerns is about her possible/likely reaction, she only knows that you become concerned, tense about something and voila, next moment she sees the other dog and reacts! And once she has "exploded", the majority of sensible owners doesn't react as if nothing is happening *I'm in Lalalalala-land*, without tends to focus on what is happening, but if you do that, she will see that as a signal from you and once again, she doesn't know that it all has to do with her behaviour, all she knows is that you became tense, another dog turns up and then, you just become more and more tense... 

Since those situations is difficult, unpleasant and a worry for you, it is fully understandable if you then probably have tried to avoid meeting other dogs, but that doesn't help the situation. If you really want to try just one more thing, my advice would probably be that you go to a park used by other dog owners, bring a foldable camping chair, a crossword, book, music and/or something for you to entertain yourself with, plus a beef cut in tiny small pieces and tie her to a tree or lamppost somewhere in the outer edges of the park. Then sit there for a few hours, if she ignores the other dogs you reward her, if she doesn't ignore the other dogs you pretend as if she is not there and focus on your crossword, book etc.     


Personally, I would not rehome her, even though I thought I had found her the perfect home, I would worry myself sick about that she still somehow could end up in the wrong hands. 


Other than that, I can only say that I think that dog owning should be enjoyable, okay if it includes some problems that you may need to work on or habits that you might become accustomed to live with, but overall, I feel that it first and foremost should be a pleasure to be a dog owner.
Though I don't have any problems with if a truly rude dog gets told off and even though I don't expect my bitches to tolerate just anything and everything, it is for me completely different when I worry about that the garden gate accidentally might be open when they go out in the garden one day, if my worry is regarding that it could lead to that they might get hit by a car or disappear, or if I worry about what they could do with another dog that perhaps innocently walks past, just as they "escape".  

I don't believe they know how long they could have lived and many years ago, when I had to euthanise a bitch only about 2 years old, with both health and mental problems, we went out to our summer home in the middle of the winter, gave her a few days with doing her favourite things and then we stopped by at the vets on the way home. 
It broke my heart and though we attended puppy class and 2 further dog classes, took her to vets and dog psychologist, without that anything helped, I still wonder if there was not something more I could have done. But I simply have to accept that I did the best I could there and then.


----------



## CAYLA (30 March 2010)

Im not going to say either way, but to add, she is in yours hands and if you don't feel confident enough to tackle the issue and you are now fearful/intense with the situation , then it's not a good one, with aggression you have to have the ability to over come your own fear, otherwise you will deal with that through avoidance which will heighten the problem, plus the gate opening sceanrio which is not a good one.
I have worked with very aggressive dogs, brought them and intergrated them into my pack, and some have gone on the be fine and never looked back, some have had to come back, where I must say I have seen the owner make the same mistake again, or basically still be as tense with the dog as the first day they brought it, it's also very hard once the dog returns home and is segrigated for most of the time from other dogs, because the tendancy towards aggression will commonly return.
Good on you for trying so far.


----------



## angela_l_b (31 March 2010)

Thanks so much to everyone for responding sympathetically and trying to help. 

I know that our own confidence needs to be there for us to be able to handle her while out and about - this is mostly what we worked on while on training and we did get to a point where we can walk with her obediently to heel and cope nicely when another dog comes along. I am not scared to walk her, and I know that I can deal with other dogs - we can walk past them on a path and be in control - however if my attention is distracted even momentarily and another dog appears then she will lunge at it, so we get into a tug of war. I can hold her, but it's not pretty and it sets us back each time. 

This isn't actually the main problem at the moment. I worry more that as her dislike of other dogs hasn't been solved, she will always be trying to get out of the garden to get at any that are passing, and that one day she will manage it.

Cayla, if you see this - do you manage to integrate dogs into a pack even with problems like this, and do they become accepting of other dogs as a result? I'd be really interested to know more about your methods (do you offer training?) - I never stop hoping for another last resort...

Thanks to all who replied - I really appreciate your opinions.  xxx


----------



## Vizslak (31 March 2010)

Try Pming Cayla, she doesn't always check back on threads. 
x


----------



## Alexart (31 March 2010)

I would PTS personally as she is basically a ticking time bomb - especially with a baby about.  I knew a lady that had a dog aggressive dog, and one of the children got in the way when it went for another of their dogs, the child bore the brunt of the attack and had to have stitches - the dog was PTS, you just can't risk it.  If it went for another dog on a lead and the owner tried to separate and gets attacked in the process you could end up in serious trouble with the law for knowingly having a dangerous dog, or even if it killed someone else's precious pet then you could also be taken to court.  Having a dog is supposed to be fun and enjoyable.


----------



## CAYLA (1 April 2010)

Vizslak said:



			Try Pming Cayla, she doesn't always check back on threads. 
x
		
Click to expand...


A ha....u know me too well, good job I cannot sleep and on the night shift


----------



## CAYLA (1 April 2010)

bollix....I just typed a massive reply, and it said I was not able to reply cos I was not logged in...........well how the feck was I able to type then I hate this god damn forum!


----------



## CAYLA (1 April 2010)

After my temper tantrum, I basically said Yes I do deal with extreme aggression, and I explained what I do in depthy Arghhhhhhh.

My ma  has a rescue with no less than 30 dogs in at a time, we have never had to send a dog out with the label "not to be rehomed with other dogs" and they mix, even if handed in a raving beasts, they all intergrate, maybe some only when supervised but they are never kept apart from other dogs at all times.

I have 9 dogs all pretty well adjusted and laid back and they all bring something different and helpful when im bringing in an aggressive dog, some will blank them, some are not easily hurt if a dog does turn as they are so humungus, some are dominant some submissive, some playful.

I don't bring dogs in for mine to fight them, I always step in to reprimand, im confident and im very firm with a loud mouth, it's enough to scare the hardiest of dogs and their owners
I tend to find most dogs have never been reprimanded or put in their place as they should be for this level of behaviour (after all it is or can be a dangerous one)
I like the dog to eventually look for guidance before making a sudden reaction, that tells me, they are always aware there  a consiquence for their action.
I nearly always placed them directly amongst the dogs, they find it startling and cannot fixate on one as theyre are to many, truely aggressive dogs will try to get tucked straight into a fight, the less confident ones will site with their bum hidden and snap at the other dogs, onced this meet is over I walk them together, feed them together, play with the ball thrower together and tackle lead walking with them using the same reprimand (which is usally a cesar style dig and a command) "LEAVE IT", I did this most recently with a very aggressive boxer, he was an x stud dog, and first time he was let off he ran straight for a dog and proceeded to grip it's throat and try to kill it 
He looked at me as if to say "Jaysus, what the heck was that for" and that was it, the quickest response I have ever gotten from a dog, I called his owners to my house within an hour of me taking him and they where amazed, the fella was 7ft tall he just needed to be firm with the dog, like the big gobbed midget he was speaking too

Some dogs are truely aggressive/dominant, some are cowardly aggressive and some scared aggressive, u have to beable to differentiate, to understand the level of aggression (all in the body language and the reaction) and how best to deal with it.

I honesty find it easy to work with the dog but hard to get the message across to the owner and have faith they will carry on with the trining and listen to what they are being advised.

A dog may never become anothers best pal and welcome all for friendly play but they can be controlled to learn the consiqence for their actions, they need to be more interested in your next move no the dog they once fixated on ( had this issues with the staffi x whiipet x grey in the introduce your dogs post)
I kept this dog because after all the work I have put into her I don't want it undoing, which is sad cos im kinda saying "know one else is capable" and there are, there has to be, but I simply won't take that risk, she was literally picking up smaller dogs and trying to rag them to death and take them away with her and attacking larger dogs, she now knows I am very much aware, and she knows what the reprimand is, so she now avoids the bahaviour, she can be let off and live a normal life with me.

The one thing u do need it to be confident in your handling and firm, otherwise u are a weak leader and the dog knos that, I don't have children so im not in your shoes if that is your main worry, I do know I would still have the amount of dogs I do now and still deal with dogs with behavioural issues, but thats me and what im used to.

The gate is an issues and you need to make it escape proof, either heighten, lock or get a one of those springs that slmas it shut automatically when it is left open.
Most dogs will defend their property, and certainly run to ward off a dog or go further and bite, it's up to us to reclaim that right and the dog will be made to be aware it is not acceptible.
I have 2 yapping rats out the back of me, and they wind me and my dogs up rotten, the days of my dogs running at the fence at them are over when I decided it was, now they will lay and ignore them, the fence is 7ft high and doubled, so they are safe for now Im sure my akita would love to carry them off to her kennel.

A few questions

How do you react when she attacks another dog?
Does she nip and come away or smother and fight?
What do u walk her in, lead/collar type?
Does she have recall around dogs, or does she make a bee line for them?
Has she ever been around dogs and been calm and non aggressive?

Im replying now before it's lost.


----------



## angela_l_b (1 April 2010)

Cayla, thanks so much for the huuuuuge response... especially as you had to type it twice! - sending a crate of champagne your way...

In answer to your questions - 


How do you react when she attacks another dog?
With the 3 more serious attacks, TBH we have simply been fire fighting - getting her off and secure, checking other dog, dealing with owner etc. On less serious occasions we were taught to keep walkling confidently with her to heel on a choke collar, and keeping her attention using a bottle of stones if necessary, rattling near her head - making sure she pays attention to us and not other dog. Watching body language - ears and tail should be down, not up and alert. If she lunges, to pull back from a slack lead with my full body weight, and use my voice in a growly way. Sometimes works, sometimes not. I think a large part of our failure here is that when things go wrong and she goes for another dog all I can do is pull her away - by which time the other owner has gathered their dog up and vanished. Idealy I'd like to walk past it over and over for practise, but this isn't realistic. 


Does she nip and come away or smother and fight?
I think originally it was nip and come away but has got worse - she goes for the throat. So far no other dogs have fought back.


What do u walk her in, lead/collar type? 
Choke collar and training lead (approx 2m)


Does she have recall around dogs, or does she make a bee line for them?
Depends how close - if within a few metres she'll go for them. Otherwise she has recall.

Has she ever been around dogs and been calm and non aggressive? 
Yes - there are many dogs she has got on fine with (dogs and bitches) - mostly once she has met other dogs she can be fine with them. She doesn't like other dominant bitches and there have been a couple she never got on with but generally she's ok after a couple of meetings. However I moved yards quite recently and can't take her any more - she used to socialise with others at the yard. Maybe she's getting worse partly because she's not used to others so much?

Can I ask what you would do? - and would you consider taking her to work with? As I said, I'll try anything to stop her being pts - I am willing to work into training or would rehome her somewhere else if I personally couldn't handle her well enough. I'd be really grateful for an opinion / advice.

I don't worry about her and the baby now - she adores him, she comes and nudges me BEFORE he starts crying, and would lick him away if allowed to. But as others have said, when he's more mobile he just might get in the middle of something and we can't have this. So we have to deal with it now...


----------



## CAYLA (1 April 2010)

I Pm'ed you this am....just incase u missed it.


----------



## angela_l_b (1 April 2010)

Ha - just replied. Thanks!


----------



## Chris J (8 December 2010)

I am in the same situation with my Belgian Shepherd except he is people reactive too.  I didn't create this behaviour, I have done so much learning to try to help him but am coming to the same conclusion as you, it is really tough.  I don't envy you at all my advice is this don't let anyone influence your decision either way, it must be your decision and you must live with it.  If you do decide to euthanize your dog try to look at it positively, you have never abused her and you gave her a happy life for as long as you were able to, you have listened to many people and taken their advice, if you can tick everythin off the following list you have been open minded to everything.

Adversives (choke chains, being stern and tough, sprays etc)
Clicker Training
Calming Caps
TTouch wraps and groundwork
Heelwork based counter conditioning with groundwork.

I have tried all of the above, have had dogs before and had great success.  I don't envy you it is really tough.  You have my greatest sympathy.


----------



## bonnie93 (8 December 2010)

havent read the other posts, but in my opinion  you shud pts, it may not be nice but having a child in the house you cannot risk it especially if she has attacked other dogs before.  it sounds like you have tried your hardest with training etc  so you have done everything you can for her


----------



## CorvusCorax (8 December 2010)

Guys, this post is old, but it would be interesting to hear an update.

Chris - what type of Belgian Shepherd? Although I have an idea.
As you will know, certain strains of Belgians are just not like other breeds.
They need to work, they need stimulation and if they don't get it, they will make their own entertainment and that is usually entertainment we see as negative.
A lot of them have protection work in their breeding for generations and will naturally react to people coming in at them in a certain way.
As you will no doubt know, they are also incredibly sensitive and often do not take some types of verbal or physical correction well.
They can have huge drive and that drive needs to be diverted and channelled correctly and a good trainer (no offence, but a lot of pet trainers can't cope with these levels of drive) can show you how to do that, if you're prepared to put the work in to turn the dog around.
Apologies if you have been down this route already and I am teaching granny to suck eggs - educating yourself is fine, but nothing works more than the right pair of fresh eyes - but if you have tried a number of trainers who are used to working breeds of dog, if you can admit to yourself that you are being strong and following their advice to the letter, then it's time to start wondering if the dog is beyond help.

Neither of the dogs mentioned in this post should be rehomed IMO.

Also - dog aggression does not always equal aggression to humans/children - a lot of dog aggression is actually caused through the handler unwittingly passing vibes to their own dog and is motivated by defence of their 'pack' - although as mentioned, the danger comes if a child is in the way of another dog and the aggressor decides to attack.

We did have a human-aggressive, hugely over-protective GSD put to sleep when I was a baby, he would have killed someone in his misplaced defence of us and my mother could not have lived with herself if he had ended up a guard dog chained up on a yard (Miss Marple, that's not much of a life for those dogs ) or had gone on to seriously hurt someone in the hands of someone else, because she passed on a problem for someone else to deal with.


----------



## Foxyfilly (8 December 2010)

Sorry you are your wits end.

Worth a call to Penel or Laura at 

www.dogcommunication.co.uk

I know someone who rescued a big GSD x and he was awful with
other dogs. he started to go the groups, improved so much that
they now use him as a teaching dog!

In the mean time, buy a muzzle. A gentle leader or similar and 
only let her off when there are no other dogs around.

Good luck.


----------



## tweedette (9 December 2010)

The dog in question should NEVER have been rehomed , simple as that, all its done is damage , both to other dogs and distress to the people who took it on - grrrrrr I hate this kind of thing, dogooders!!! Shakes head and walks off.


----------



## Ranyhyn (9 December 2010)

OP you are working so hard for this dog, if the time every comes, then please don't feel you failed her, you have worked a LOT harder than others would have bothered. x


----------



## 3DE (9 December 2010)

OP I'm not going to offer an opinion if this is an old post. I really feel for you  What did you decide in the end?


----------



## Angelbones (9 December 2010)

Bloomin Christmas Again said:



			Have read your post several times and really feel for you, a really awful situation to be in.

You have had professional help regarding her aggressive behaviour, to no avail.  Since the birth of your baby her aggression is escalating and she's become unpredicatable.  For me, personally, I would put her to sleep.  You and your family must come first.  Even though she has not deliberately attacked people, I would be very concerned having a baby and a dog with that nature in the house.  Take comfort that you have tried to sort her and given her chances that many wouldn't have.  Sometimes you have accept that with all the will in the world, you cannot fix some dogs.  

Click to expand...

I agree. The fact that as of now the dog is good with children / people is good, but there's no guarantee that she'll stay that way. It sounds like a nightmare walking her, you have to be on watch constantly, and that's going to become impossible when your child is toddling along next to you and you have to keep your eyes on the child and not the dog. Which one will you let go of when walking down a road if the dog goes for another dog and you are off balance - the child or the dog?

I would have said yes, try to find her a rural home somewhere but I can see this possibly leading to her abuse and in the wrong hands she could find herself being asked to be a guard dog and end up being very confused.

My heart breaks for you, but I think perhaps you already deep down know what you ought to do .  

So sorry x


----------



## Chris J (19 December 2010)

CaveCanem

In answer to your question he is a Tervuren, Several trainers have seen him and all have said he is the worst they have ever seen, he is a lot better than he was when I got him.  I am afraid that this one is not so simple as channelling he drive, my last Border Collie was a case like this, she went on to do agility and field work with me, she was fantastic at hearding absolutely anything and had fantastic recall.  No offense taken since I am not one of those people, I never look for dogs that just mooch along requiring no mental stimulation, this one is different.  

I have a saying with working with animals "everyone is an expert", I know because I used to think I had the answers, the most recent dog I trained gets comments daily about how brilliant he is (Groendael) he has high drive and is focused on his handler, 100% recall, sit and stay in the presence of distractions, perfect on and off leash heelwork and has never been to one indoor training class or dog show, although he could handle the stress of the situation if required. 

I used to teach people how to suck eggs, I don't anymore and my confidence as someone who works with dogs will be completely knocked if I do end up deciding to kill/murder/euthanise/pts my dog.  

I have no problem calling a spade a spade here and no problem accepting criticism, hence why on various professionals advice I have.

kept him in for a week to reduce stimulation
used Ttouch groundwork and wraps
clicker trained good heel groundwork in the absence of distractions
de sensitised and rewarded focus on me in the presence of distractions
Generally spent hours every day for the past year reinforcing behaviour that I desire.  
Tried silent walks once a week
Taught the dog to follow me through doorways and outside.
Put everything that is a potential reward under my control and made the dog work for it.

The list goes on and on.

On the positive I have managed to socialise him with one other dog, this was before he reached maturity but since he became sexually mature his progress stopped, had him castrated, this has made no diffeerence, spent £600 pounds on having.

Hips X-rayed
Bloods for every allergy going (both under advise from well renound trainers), personally I didn't see any clinical signs but hey what do I know, I was right, they both came back clear.

Tried Serene-UM
Xyclene
DAP
and homeopathic drops of 3 different varieties.

Done ball retrieve work, not allowing him to chase other things in the hope that his chase drive could be put under stimulus control.  A trainer told me this was over stimulating him so I withdrew it, no difference.  

I could go on but will run out of space.  Sufficient to say about the only things I have not tried are a prong collar, E-collar and citronella spray.  

I used to think I was good with animals and now I am not so sure, on the upside I have no problems with him in the house.  As I say to people who reckon it is me "please take him, prove yourself right" I would be so happy if he didn't behave this way with someone else, so far I have had no takers no one else is mental enough to put their money where their mouth is, I have been.


----------



## CorvusCorax (19 December 2010)

Yeah, I thought you sounded like you knew your stuff which is why I apologised in advance with the egg-sucking comment!

I am staggered by your commitment to this dog where others would have thrown in the towel a long time ago.

While not at your level, I'm another one who thought I knew a lot about dogs until my current one came along. 

You know yourself, you could try electrics or a prong, it might do something, but by the sounds of him, if he is that sensitive to stimulus that could make the problems worse.

I hope you both find a solution but I don't think anybody could knock you if you did decide to give him sleep after everything you've tried x


----------



## 3DE (19 December 2010)

I feel for you - it must be so heartbreaking 



Chris J said:



			I could go on but will run out of space.  Sufficient to say about the only things I have not tried are a prong collar, E-collar and citronella spray.
		
Click to expand...

Please don't use an ecollar or citronella spray with him - they can make aggressive dogs worse. I know someone who (against my advice) used an ecollar to stock train a prey driven lurcher. Instead of the dog just chasing the sheep it decided it had better kill them before they hurt him - it associated the pain of the ecollar with the sheep 

I believe they have a place - I use them for recall with one of my lurchers, but they do not work for training or punishment in any effective manner. IMO they should only be used for recall, and then only as a 'nudge' on the lowest setting to grab the dog's attention.

I know what you mean about everyone an expert - been through that myself  I was told by numerous people to have my boy PTS as he wouldn't recall and was destructive if not exercised off lead. Perseverance and trying methods I didn't believe in at the time resulted in a dog that has good enough recall do do agility  You'll get there x x x

You say you have tried wraps to make him more secure - along a similar line is to put them in a tight human tshirt. It seems to give them security.

I don't know if you have tried this but have you considered how you approach other dogs? A direct line can be perceieved as very intimidating/aggressive so he may react badly because of this. Have you considered changing your path to an arc when you see another dog - this is how dogs behave off lead when approching a new dog (less threatening).

I have worked with a guy called Jim Greenwood with my boy - he is amazing. He's not like a normal dog trainer - he specialises in difficult and working dogs. His details can be found with a quick search on www.lurcherlink.org. It's a great forum with some very knowledgeable people (even welcome if you don't have a lurcher ). Here's Jim's linky http://jimgreenwood.co.uk/default.aspx

Someone in a similar situation...http://www.lurcherlink.org/llink/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64108&highlight=jim+greenwood


----------



## CorvusCorax (19 December 2010)

ITA agree about e-collars, anyone I know who has used one successfully, has not used it as a punishment, more, an 'Oi!' and with a breed like Chris has, the dog might, as you say, become more aggressive or even handler aggressive - you hurt me, I'll hurt you back/defend myself - not a risk everyone would want to take.


----------



## CAYLA (19 December 2010)

I have not followed this, I thought it was someone findingt he old post and replying, are these dog on dog aggression issues or dog/human aggression issues, sorry I have read so far back, got a bit to much on me plate.


----------



## CorvusCorax (19 December 2010)

Cayla, it is an old post, my understanding is that the OP has a dog aggressive dog (would be interested in an update), ChrisJ's has dog and human aggression issues.


----------



## EAST KENT (19 December 2010)

Sounds to me as though ChrisJ`s dog could well be an excellent protection/patrol dog with sound training.I would put him in the for rehoming section in Patrol and Protection Dog forum,there are always real working dog/security guys on the look in there.Everyone`s problem dog can become someone else`s treasure..two of mine were just that,and are now well looked after guard dogs and highly thought of.


----------



## Alec Swan (19 December 2010)

CAYLA said:



			After my temper tantrum, I basically said Yes I do deal with extreme aggression, and I explained what I do in depthy Arghhhhhhh.

My ma  has a rescue with no less than 30 dogs in at a time, we have never had to send a dog out with the label "not to be rehomed with other dogs" and they mix, even if handed in a raving beasts, they all intergrate, maybe some only when supervised but they are never kept apart from other dogs at all times.

I have 9 dogs all pretty well adjusted and laid back and they all bring something different and helpful when im bringing in an aggressive dog, some will blank them, some are not easily hurt if a dog does turn as they are so humungus, some are dominant some submissive, some playful.

I don't bring dogs in for mine to fight them, I always step in to reprimand, im confident and im very firm with a loud mouth, it's enough to scare the hardiest of dogs and their owners
I tend to find most dogs have never been reprimanded or put in their place as they should be for this level of behaviour (after all it is or can be a dangerous one)
I like the dog to eventually look for guidance before making a sudden reaction, that tells me, they are always aware there  a consiquence for their action.
I nearly always placed them directly amongst the dogs, they find it startling and cannot fixate on one as theyre are to many, truely aggressive dogs will try to get tucked straight into a fight, the less confident ones will site with their bum hidden and snap at the other dogs, onced this meet is over I walk them together, feed them together, play with the ball thrower together and tackle lead walking with them using the same reprimand (which is usally a cesar style dig and a command) "LEAVE IT", I did this most recently with a very aggressive boxer, he was an x stud dog, and first time he was let off he ran straight for a dog and proceeded to grip it's throat and try to kill it 
He looked at me as if to say "Jaysus, what the heck was that for" and that was it, the quickest response I have ever gotten from a dog, I called his owners to my house within an hour of me taking him and they where amazed, the fella was 7ft tall he just needed to be firm with the dog, like the big gobbed midget he was speaking too

Some dogs are truely aggressive/dominant, some are cowardly aggressive and some scared aggressive, u have to beable to differentiate, to understand the level of aggression (all in the body language and the reaction) and how best to deal with it.

I honesty find it easy to work with the dog but hard to get the message across to the owner and have faith they will carry on with the trining and listen to what they are being advised.

A dog may never become anothers best pal and welcome all for friendly play but they can be controlled to learn the consiqence for their actions, they need to be more interested in your next move no the dog they once fixated on ( had this issues with the staffi x whiipet x grey in the introduce your dogs post)
I kept this dog because after all the work I have put into her I don't want it undoing, which is sad cos im kinda saying "know one else is capable" and there are, there has to be, but I simply won't take that risk, she was literally picking up smaller dogs and trying to rag them to death and take them away with her and attacking larger dogs, she now knows I am very much aware, and she knows what the reprimand is, so she now avoids the bahaviour, she can be let off and live a normal life with me.

The one thing u do need it to be confident in your handling and firm, otherwise u are a weak leader and the dog knos that, I don't have children so im not in your shoes if that is your main worry, I do know I would still have the amount of dogs I do now and still deal with dogs with behavioural issues, but thats me and what im used to.

The gate is an issues and you need to make it escape proof, either heighten, lock or get a one of those springs that slmas it shut automatically when it is left open.
Most dogs will defend their property, and certainly run to ward off a dog or go further and bite, it's up to us to reclaim that right and the dog will be made to be aware it is not acceptible.
I have 2 yapping rats out the back of me, and they wind me and my dogs up rotten, the days of my dogs running at the fence at them are over when I decided it was, now they will lay and ignore them, the fence is 7ft high and doubled, so they are safe for now Im sure my akita would love to carry them off to her kennel.

A few questions

How do you react when she attacks another dog?
Does she nip and come away or smother and fight?
What do u walk her in, lead/collar type?
Does she have recall around dogs, or does she make a bee line for them?
Has she ever been around dogs and been calm and non aggressive?

Im replying now before it's lost.
		
Click to expand...

It seems that this in an old thread.  A pity.  That,  Cayla,  was a near perfect response.  By now,  however,  I would think that a decision has been made.

There are those dogs which require specialist handling.  It doesn't seem,  to me,  that the original poster,  had those abilities.  I'm not sitting in judgement,  it's just a fact.

In my view,  re-homing to a pet home,  probably wouldn't be an answer.  PTS would be.  Sad,  but possibly the most sensible option.

The interesting thing,  about this thread,  is that it has thrown up so many questions,  and potential answers!

Alec.


----------



## Brownmare (19 December 2010)

Christmas_Crackers said:



			Please don't use an ecollar or citronella spray with him - they can make aggressive dogs worse. I know someone who (against my advice) used an ecollar to stock train a prey driven lurcher. Instead of the dog just chasing the sheep it decided it had better kill them before they hurt him - it associated the pain of the ecollar with the sheep 

I believe they have a place - I use them for recall with one of my lurchers, but they do not work for training or punishment in any effective manner. IMO they should only be used for recall, and then only as a 'nudge' on the lowest setting to grab the dog's attention.
		
Click to expand...

I actually used an ecollar with great success to stock train my prey driven lurcher  I only had to shock him twice and he will now walk through a field of sheep and ignore them totally, he has done this now for years with no relapse. I accept the effectiveness of any training aid depends on the temperament of the animal and the handler and I'm not saying I'd recommend it for Chris J's dog - my JRT's first reaction is to snap at anything that irritates / hurts her so I wouldn't use it on her in case she turned on an innocent bystander (not that she would need it anyway being a very trainable dog).

Interestingly I am doing agility with my whippet mainly to improve his recall and it is working very well


----------



## Foxyfilly (19 December 2010)

We also used one for stock training, as recommended by Jim Greenwood. I know
they say not to use one for dog to dog aggression as it will make things worse.

One of my dogs isnt brilliant with other dogs, I muzzle him and walk in isolated area's.
He also has issues with men, we manage fine though


----------



## CorvusCorax (19 December 2010)

Brownmare I think you and Christmas Crackers are in agreement, what I think the point is, is that you need to know how and when to use them, IE, oi, look at me, positive, not Bad Dog - Zap.

As you mention, I have never seen one used successfully for dog aggression as a deterrent, as if you get the timing wrong it hypes them up further.


----------



## Brownmare (19 December 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Brownmare I think you and Christmas Crackers are in agreement, what I think the point is, is that you need to know how and when to use them, IE, oi, look at me, positive, not Bad Dog - Zap.

As you mention, I have never seen one used successfully for dog aggression as a deterrent, as if you get the timing wrong it hypes them up further.
		
Click to expand...

Hmm kind of - let me describe what I did with Oscar:

First off he wore the collar for a couple of weeks to get him used to it and let him learn to ignore it. During this time I kept him away from sheep and stepped up the normal treat / toy based recall training. Once I felt he was totally ignoring the collar I "accidentally" allowed him to get ahead of me into a sheep field and his reaction was to leg it after them (as expected). At this point I called him back as I normally would but when he got close to the sheep I shocked him on full strength until he turned away from them (I was calling him back to me during this time). As soon as he was looking away from the sheep I stopped the shocking (less than 10 seconds BTW) and when he came back to me I made a huge fuss of him along the lines of "Poor Oscar did the nasty sheep hurt you, I will keep you safe".

After this he wore the collar as normal for about a year but it was never needed until we moved house when he decided to try it on with the new sheep and the procedure was much as above only far quicker and less dramatic.

If I had used the collar on anything less than the full strength his adrenalin would have let him ignore it but the most important aspect was that he did not associate either me or the collar with the shock, only the sheep - timing must be perfect.


----------



## Chris J (19 December 2010)

To answer a few more of your questions.

Approach dogs in curves, I use a head halter to direct attention and not let him get locked into a fixed stare.  We have tried a thunder shirt too (the t-shirt someone mentioned) and also calming caps.  He will tolerate the calming cap in the crate in the car and for about a minute out of the car,  I have been working on this for the last 2 months or so.  As to re-homing as a protection dog, I don't think this would really work  He shows very little balance and focus during the aggressive chase, whilst it is true that he could be trained for snutzhund (spelling a bit iffy here) and believe me I have thought of putting this under stimulus control with his lack of handler focus and his hyper nature it would be a risky thing to do to say the least.  Good protection dogs are trained not to act off their own bat first.  

As a guard dog he would bark but not reliably bite and is a guard dog any life for a sensitive breed, besides in order to do protection work of any kind his dog-dog issues would have to be sorted first.  

To start protection training a proper assessment of the dog is required, they look for confidence and a lack of fear as well as balance focus and drive.  I am afraid he would fail this assessment.  The other Belgian I have trained would be a superb dog to start this kind of work with, personally I get very little pleasure from training this behaviour and I believe that it creates many problems both for dogs and the wider society.  Most professional trainers that do work with private clients wanting to train protection do a psychological assessment of the owner as well as the dog before proceeding.

Of course if any of you know someone who would like to assess him and take him on for this kind of work please feel free to message me and get my phone number.


----------



## CorvusCorax (19 December 2010)

Whereabouts are you Chris?

I do agree, while I think EK's suggestion is a useful one, that a sensitive dog already living off his nerves would not be an ideal candidate for service or sport, just my opinion, you used the word 'confidence' and for me, that word is key for any dog doing protection/service work. There are plenty of dogs working under extreme pressure, yes, they look impressive, but are they happy/comfortable/confident/enjoying it?
The Belgians I know personally who do this sort of thing, I don't know, because they are not very approachable.

As you say, if he was in the middle of any discipline and then decided to have a go at a passive dog/dog in the long down or a dog walking along minding it's own business while he was in pursuit of a real offender, then you'd be up poo creek.


----------



## Chris J (19 December 2010)

You see a well trained protection dog shoud be aproachable with the handler present.  I have personal expirence with an ex-police dog and his handler, they are trained to greet in 2 ways, the usual sit whilst my head is patted way and the intimidating barking way.  I had the stange experience of being licked in the face by this aggressive barking GSD.  I knew the handler and knew the dog trusted me, after this incident the dog responded to me.  A friend who was observing stated afterwards I thought it was going to bite your face off.  I don't know if this sort of work makes for a happy dog, personally I'm in agreement with you.  

I have spoken to several other trainers about training him for this sort of thing and the consensus is a resounding "you must be kidding".  I usually write down my answer before asking the question and this is what I have thought all along.  

If a protection dog is not approachable then they have only managed to train their dog to be the same as mine and let me assure you he is not a happy content dog.  Loads of lip licking outside regular shake offs.  When I first got him he wouldn't even pee or poo outside, this took 4 days and lots of tea to crack.  

I live in Suffolk by the way.  and work with 2 behavioural trainers and a Ttouch Practitioner, several other trainers think we are mad working with this dog at the moment he totally trusts me and will let me touch any part of him but he is very unpredictable around other people.  He would also have the issue of not actually targetting the correct offender, this is another test that service dogs must perform, target the offender and ignore the random joe who runs in from the side, the dog needs to be thinking and not just acting on blind instinct.  Next Ttouch session we are going to put poles between the two people in order to try to slow his approach, last session we had jumping up of the other person but no bite (which is good), he is obviously muzzled before some bright spark suggests using a muzzle.  

As I say I used to be one of those people with every dog I had since childhood where random strangers and other dog owners would say "I wish my dog did that" or "how come your dog always comes when called".  A friend of mine has a working spaniel when I went round their last week she said, "You are the first person in a long time that that dog will walk for".  People I meet have no idea how frustrating this is for me, if you saw me you would probably blame the owner, I am his third.  Number 1 being a gang of lads who had fighting dogs, number 2 being a woman who chained him up in her garden with an aggressive horse and me (an idiot who tries to help)!


----------



## ladyt25 (19 December 2010)

What happened to the OPs dog in the end? I actually disagree that the dog in question is likely to attack humans/children etc. Our family dog when was very very little (my parents had him before i was born) was a very aggressive dog. He was a GSD x that my parents rescued, he was GSD in size and looks but was black with a white ruff and resembled a wolf in some ways. He was NOT good at all with other dogs (well male dogs, most remale dogs were ok) and it was before the days when people sued for their dogs being attacked or you were made to have your dogs PTS. This dogs though never EVER once showed aggression to me or my sisters when we were babies crawling and generally being annoying! He'd grumble and walk away that was the worst he did. He though HAD gone for other people - the likes of bin men, postmen etc. Obviously that is appalling behaviour but this was back in the late 70's 80's when it was sort of 'normal' in some ways - dogs fought occasionally!

He though was always walked on a lead and was always controlled when out and he was handled firmly. I still would hope something good be done with this GSD to help her, she sounds very overprotective and it seems she needs to learn that she needs to take a back seat as far as the position of leader of the pack is concerned.


----------



## CorvusCorax (19 December 2010)

Well no one can say you haven't put the work in or taken the easy way out. Will send you a PM but you may end up sending me a box of eggs in the post


----------



## Luci07 (20 December 2010)

Can I just say please keep posting? this is really interesting and informative. I have never been in this position, would be totally stuck if I ended up with dogs like yours. I have staffies (and always have done) so am terrier focused. Can add absolutely nothing to the thread except to say I applaud your efforts and please keep updating..!


----------



## CorvusCorax (20 December 2010)

ladyt25 said:



			What happened to the OPs dog in the end? I actually disagree that the dog in question is likely to attack humans/children etc. Our family dog when was very very little (my parents had him before i was born) was a very aggressive dog. He was a GSD x that my parents rescued, he was GSD in size and looks but was black with a white ruff and resembled a wolf in some ways. He was NOT good at all with other dogs (well male dogs, most remale dogs were ok) and it was before the days when people sued for their dogs being attacked or you were made to have your dogs PTS. This dogs though never EVER once showed aggression to me or my sisters when we were babies crawling and generally being annoying! He'd grumble and walk away that was the worst he did. He though HAD gone for other people - the likes of bin men, postmen etc. Obviously that is appalling behaviour but this was back in the late 70's 80's when it was sort of 'normal' in some ways - dogs fought occasionally!

He though was always walked on a lead and was always controlled when out and he was handled firmly. I still would hope something good be done with this GSD to help her, she sounds very overprotective and it seems she needs to learn that she needs to take a back seat as far as the position of leader of the pack is concerned.
		
Click to expand...

I do agree with you up to a point, dog-aggressive dogs, a lot of the time are acting in misplaced defence of humans or because of the human's defensive behaviour/vibes, wittingly or unwittingly...I know some dog-aggressive dogs who are super with humans of all ages and I don't think it is a 'matter of time' before they start acting this way with people, for all dog-aggressive dogs.

However a good point has been made in terms of what happens when the OP is out with her young child and is struggling with an arsey dog, or what happens if the target dog is behind held by a child or there is a child standing in the way.


----------



## ChesnutsRoasting (20 December 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			I do agree with you up to a point, dog-aggressive dogs, a lot of the time are acting in misplaced defence of humans or because of the human's defensive behaviour/vibes, wittingly or unwittingly...I know some dog-aggressive dogs who are super with humans of all ages and I don't think it is a 'matter of time' before they start acting this way with people, for all dog-aggressive dogs.

However a good point has been made in terms of what happens when the OP is out with her young child and is struggling with an arsey dog, or what happens if the target dog is behind held by a child or there is a child standing in the way.
		
Click to expand...

I see your point CC and agree with you in principle, but with a dog that displays agression towards other dogs, who can say that the agression will not be displayed towards people, specifically babies and young children, due to unforseen circumtances.  How many times do you hear owners saying "he/she has never bitten anyone before, he/she loves kids, my lot used to climb all over him/her?" after their child has been mauled.  I just would not trust a dog, like the OPs, around young children/babies who can make high pitch cries like a small animal and when learning to walk can toddle all over the place and fall.  Babies can confuse dogs and with a dog with agression/dominence issues the mix could be fatal.  I'm in no way an expert and its just a gut feeling but it would concern me having the OPs dog around young children/babies.


----------



## CorvusCorax (20 December 2010)

Well I would never allow a kid to crawl around over a dog anyway or be left alone with young kids anyway....especially not babies because as you say, certain noises and behaviours can and has in the past triggered something primeval in the dog....would like to think other people would think the same way and I am sure we all grew up with dogs like that and came away unscathed, but doesn't mean in hindsight that it was the wisest thing to do!


----------



## EAST KENT (20 December 2010)

The sort of work I had in mind was one to one ,probably night work,he would`nt see other dogs,mostly visit checks on properties etc;absolutely ideal in my opinion. All he`s got to do is not attack his handler and be alert really!


----------



## PerdixPerdix (20 December 2010)

^^^ agree totally.

i have a friend who used to specialise in rehoming aggressive dogs to yards that needed protection. sometimes it wasnt necessarily what i agree with, having potentially dangerous dogs who could only be approached with a handling noose, but they served a purpose and i suppose lived quite happy lives albeit on the end of a long chain.


----------



## CorvusCorax (20 December 2010)

I would rather PTS than chain up a dog like the one Chris appears to have. It makes a territorial or insecure dog even worse, imagine being so on your nerves, so sensitive and having physically nowhere to run or not being able to reach his target, so in his head, making him feel in more danger.
It would put immense further stress and pressure on the dog.
You know the way we say horses get their 'brains blown?' it happens with dogs too and it is just horrible. Just my opinion.


----------



## Alec Swan (22 December 2010)

I've followed this now declining thread with real interest.

All too often,  when we see a dog which is aggressive,  it's offered up for protection work,  and equally,  all too often,  it is totally unsuitable.

Just because a dog will attack a human doesn't necessarily mean that it's suitable.  The dog which sees attack as the best form of defence,  needs to learn a few lessons.  Depending upon the age of the dog,  and how ingrained the fear is,  then these lessons can and all too often,  will fail.

It's generally been my experience,  that the dog which wants to fight other dogs,  tends to be spineless,  and the dog which wants to kill all two legged adversaries,  tends to be soft with other dogs.

There can be no doubt that the puppy which doesn't have the opportunity to assimilate itself,  with in a pack,  will all to often be the dog which is needlessly aggressive.

Chris J,  you suggested that you may be an idiot.  You are anything,  but that.  Despite your laudable,  and very best efforts,  I suspect that the time will arrive when you give up.  

I would also tell you this.  Despite the odd dog which you may have met,  which is the friend of everyone,  until the buttons are pressed,  I have never had a hard dog who would tolerate the approach of someone,  whilst he was on a lead.  Off the lead is a different matter,  and perhaps that's what you should concentrate on.  The LEAD is responsible for so many dogs failing to "think".  Lack of physical contact,  can work wonders.  Many dogs used for protection work,  are so much better off the lead,  than on it.  It gives them a different dimension, trust me.

A fascinating thread,  and it's made me think!

Alec.


----------



## CorvusCorax (22 December 2010)

I do think perhaps that Chris's dog is past that stage, (off lead) with the best will in the world. And even with a muzzle, I doubt I personally would want to take the chance with other people.
Unless everyone on the field was dressed in the fully padded suits seen in ring sport, perhaps!

I can't say it is my experience that protection dogs are worse on lead than off - I would expect any good dog in sport or in service, when on the lead, to be walking to heel and paying attention to the handler, waiting for a command. They must work equally as well on lead as off. 
Tracking/scent work is the only discipline where the handler can have little or no influence, vocal or physical - yet often, they are still attached to a line.
As mentioned, I see that more in certain breeds than in others.

Maybe we are talking at cross purposes, I am talking about a dog that can either compete in Schutzhund or one of the equivalent sports, or a police or other service dog.

For these jobs, overly aggressive or nervous dogs will never excel, and while they are of course out there,  they will never be be happy in their work, so why do it to them?


----------



## Alec Swan (22 December 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			.......For these jobs, overly aggressive or nervous dogs will never excel, and while they are of course out there,  they will never be be happy in their work, so why do it to them?
		
Click to expand...

C_C,  

"they will never be happy in their work, so why do it to them?"

A very good question,  sadly.  

Alec.


----------



## Chris J (27 December 2010)

I do train off leash with a couple of strangers in a field, it is interesting.  He tends to charge at the stranger, usually jumping up.  He is muzzled of course.  Although this is OK with people, using a stooge dog in this way would be most unfair on the stooge.  He is generally less reactive when not confined but using a lunge line outside in this way will only end up with him running to the limit and then being stopped by me on the end of a long leash.


----------



## Alec Swan (27 December 2010)

Chris J,

A hundred questions,  perhaps more!!  

Is the dog kennelled,  or does he live in the house?

Assuming that he lives indoors,  and if he were let into a room,  containing a seated visitor,  perhaps watching the telly,  and IMPORTANTLY,  in advance of you,  then what would he be likely to do?  What is his reaction to strangers,  when he doesn't have your support?  (that's really all part of the same question).

Does the dog "know" anyone else,  other than you,  and how is he with them?  

Do you think that your dog respects you,  or any others?

If your dog's intended victim,  were to turn his back,  and completely ignore the dog,  then what do you think your dog's reaction would be?

If within a contained,  but reasonably  spacious environment,  your dog was loose,  with a stationary,  and non-threatening "criminal",  and you were to walk away,  then what would your dog do?  Would he press home an attack,  or would he want to be with you,  and leave his target?

Turning ones back on a determined attack,  isn't that easy,  but if the "criminal" were to do just that,  and completely ignore the dog,  then what do you think would be the dogs reaction to that?

You've probably mentioned the dog's age,  I would have missed it,  but how old is he?

When you are in a one-2-one situation,  how does the dog react to correction?

Where abouts are you,  geographically?

Stooge dogs should never be put at risk,  but you're already aware of that.

I hate muzzles.  All those dogs which need them,  very quickly learn,  that the muzzle  becomes a mute support.  During a work,  or training programme,  if you need a muzzle,  then you're nocking your head against a brick wall.  The dog needs to learn that he "mustn't" bite.  Teaching him,  with a muzzle,  that he "can't",  generally makes matters worse,  I've found.

It may well be that I have no answers for you,  but you've certainly persevered,  and I applaud that.

Alec.


----------



## CorvusCorax (27 December 2010)

Alec - I don't mean to patronise you, but have you ever dealt with or seen a 'lit up' Belgian or Dutch or even some lines of German, shepherd? They really are not like other dogs.
If yes, I'll shut up and put the egg box away again 

Chris - has he actually done work with a helper in a bite suit? Or not safe/wise to get to that stage?


----------



## Alec Swan (27 December 2010)

C_C,

I will bow to your greater experience.

Chris J,  PM me,  if you wish.

Alec.


----------



## CorvusCorax (27 December 2010)

No, that's not what I meant at all    was just wondering x
I don't have greater experience at all. I'm still learning myself, I will never stop, and will never deny that.


----------



## stevieg (27 December 2010)

Very interesting thread

Until recently we had two GSDs and a JRT. Sadly Sly was PTS at the age of 6 due to a long standing skin allergy that got too much for him despite the time and in excess of two thousand pounds trying to put things right.

Just wanted to say that Sly attacked other dogs whenever he got the opportunity, one occasion resulting in quite a hefty vets bill for us when he took exception to a JRT we came across on one of our walks. Walks were a nightmare as I never dared let him loose and although we considered muzzling him we could never quite bring ourselves to do it. 
I am convinced he attacked through fear as he was very much the underdog at home and very wary of our other (younger) GSD.


----------



## pointergirl (30 December 2010)

Sorry to say but I think that PTS is the only answer. I really understand how much you care for your dog but I dont think re-homing is the answer and how often do we hear owners say their dogs are good with kids and the next thing is that a child is bitten or worse. I love dogs but think you have got to be realistic.


----------



## Colleen_Miss_Tom (31 December 2010)

Just been reading through this thread, scanning really due to the time of night  . 

Its such a sad case, I honestly don't know what I would do . 

Although there is hope when it comes to dog aggressive dogs . 

Take my own dog Tikka, She would go for another dog, no matter how big or small, but with help from Bodo (CC's GSD) she has become alot better, I still to this day don't know what causes it, I doubt its from me as I am as laid back as they come, what my own theory is that .... its possibly due to where she came from and that being from a rescue centre, where she possibly shared kennels with a few dogs, Her and bodo get on not too bad, they both give as good as they get, but its mainly play now, whereas first meet it was BARRRRK BARRRKKK I'M GOING TO KILL YOU IF YOU COME NEAR ME !  

Just wanted to say there is hope, but it really depends on the circumstances .


----------



## EAST KENT (31 December 2010)

Provided this dog would bond with another handler he would do the job of one on one security/protection dog well.The vast majority of these dogs are not trained beyond looking the part on a lead,and are not all singing all dancing schutz trained at all, AIDogs for instance trains up and sells such dogs for anything from £1500,riiculous as it may seem There is always a job for a dog with a good bite.
 Probably got a great life ahead doing work,just not your average civilian dog .


----------



## Chris J (29 January 2011)

I'm going to let you in on a secret about some security firms and the way they treat their dogs.  This is a first hand account of what I saw in my youth at a vacated building.  

I had decided to go into this large derelict mansion one evening with some friends confident that I would be able to out manoeuvre the security firm and the dogs should the need arise.  During the time we spent on the premises the dogs alerted their handlers to our presence on 3 separate occasions, we were not found by the security personnel and the 2 dogs were given a thorough beating the third time they got the security people out of the caravan.  Both the dogs and handlers were poorly trained, the 2 dogs had very poor recall and although the run out was indeed aggressive could be easily distracted from the task in hand and a bite avoided by the intruder (me), I knew this ahead of time which is why I accepted the dare in the first place.  Unless the mentality of your average security guard has changed in the last 15 years I think it is very unkind to put any dog into their care, police handlers are different and they now use clicker and reward based training.  

In order to train aggression in dogs, the aggression must be thought through,  I think someone made the point that you need to see a "lit up" belgian, this is a very good term since when they are in that very hyped state, there is no learning going on, this dog is so hyped just being outside very little learning is taking place.  I am giving him one last honest go with one of the countries leading behavioural trainers but even he said that in is 20 years experience he has never seen such a reactive dog.

I haven't either but then again I have never seen a dog whose puppy flooding party was a fighting dog den (before this one anyway).  I think each dog comes into our lives to teach us a different lesson, the lesson that I have learnt from this one is humility, there is a saying "If you have 3 dog trainers in a room, the one thing they will all agree on is why the other 2 are wrong", 2 years ago I would have fitted this description perfectly, now I listen and only actually offer my opinion when asked since this is the only way to rid the dog world of its arrogance, on this journey with my dog I have learnt much and heard many explanations of why certain techniques work, it is absolutely amazing the "positive" spins that people put on flooding.  I have heard them all from more trainers than I care to name and some charge an awful lot of money for their services, none of them got the chance to flood this dog.  I have unintentionally done it on 3 separate occasions in the car when I got lost, take it from me it doesn't work.


----------



## CorvusCorax (30 January 2011)

Chris J said:



			I think each dog comes into our lives to teach us a different lesson, the lesson that I have learnt from this one is humility, there is a saying "If you have 3 dog trainers in a room, the one thing they will all agree on is why the other 2 are wrong", 2 years ago I would have fitted this description perfectly, now I listen and only actually offer my opinion when asked since this is the only way to rid the dog world of its arrogance, on this journey with my dog I have learnt much and heard many explanations of why certain techniques work
		
Click to expand...

One of the most important posts I have ever read on here, no two dogs are the same and saying 'X always works' 'Y never works' 'If you do Z then you are a crap trainer' (as I have done myself) solves absolutely nothing, and my own dog, even if we never get any further than where we are now, he has been an amazing teacher and the biggest eye opener and he is certainly not 'difficult' compared to some I have come into contact since.

Best of luck with the boy, would love an update down the line.
And for the OP to come back!


----------



## SavingGrace (30 January 2011)

If you chose to keep her alive then I would most definitely have her muzzled at all times when outside the house.   Such a sad tale though but sometimes it is for best to let them go


----------



## Chris J (31 January 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			One of the most important posts I have ever read on here, no two dogs are the same and saying 'X always works' 'Y never works' 'If you do Z then you are a crap trainer' (as I have done myself) solves absolutely nothing, and my own dog, even if we never get any further than where we are now, he has been an amazing teacher and the biggest eye opener and he is certainly not 'difficult' compared to some I have come into contact since.

Best of luck with the boy, would love an update down the line.
And for the OP to come back!
		
Click to expand...

It sounds to me like you have been on a similar journey yourself.  There is a well known saying "Wisdom begins with the words I don't know".  Your tone throughout this thread in all your posts has been non judgemental and compassionate.  I respect that, I am going to give him another couple of months and see if there is any improvement.  I am trying a technique called CAT (constructive aggression training) from the US with one of the UK's leading behaviourists in the field, if there is no improvement, I will speak to the vet.  Many may think of me as cold hearted or cruel and they are welcome to, to date 2 people he knows and likes have said to me "I'll take him for a week if you need a break", both of them only lasted 3 days and by that I mean tears and saying I can't cope with him.  I have to date lasted 397 days everyone has a limit, me included.  

It is so difficult hearing a dog freak out and vocalise stress on such a regular basis.  This is a dog that has some happiness in his life but one who which being alive is also stressful to the point of absolute terror.  I believe that nearly all aggression is fear based, try to imagine living your life in absolute fear wrecked with anxiety to the point you don't even know you are anxious and piling on more stress just to be alive.  For much of my life I lived like that (I did conquer it) and it is painful.  Dogs are emotional animals just like us and they do feel emotional pain, in my opinion.  At the same time this dog actually poses a danger to strangers, he is a huge responsibility.


----------



## CorvusCorax (31 January 2011)

Chris J said:



			It sounds to me like you have been on a similar journey yourself.  There is a well known saying "Wisdom begins with the words I don't know".  Your tone throughout this thread in all your posts has been non judgemental and compassionate.  I respect that, I am going to give him another couple of months and see if there is any improvement.  I am trying a technique called CAT (constructive aggression training) from the US with one of the UK's leading behaviourists in the field, if there is no improvement, I will speak to the vet.  Many may think of me as cold hearted or cruel and they are welcome to, to date 2 people he knows and likes have said to me "I'll take him for a week if you need a break", both of them only lasted 3 days and by that I mean tears and saying I can't cope with him.  I have to date lasted 397 days everyone has a limit, me included.  

It is so difficult hearing a dog freak out and vocalise stress on such a regular basis.  This is a dog that has some happiness in his life but one who which being alive is also stressful to the point of absolute terror.  I believe that nearly all aggression is fear based, try to imagine living your life in absolute fear wrecked with anxiety to the point you don't even know you are anxious and piling on more stress just to be alive.  For much of my life I lived like that (I did conquer it) and it is painful.  Dogs are emotional animals just like us and they do feel emotional pain, in my opinion.  At the same time this dog actually poses a danger to strangers, he is a huge responsibility.
		
Click to expand...

Quoted you again so more people read this and realise that there are dogs out there like yours, that can't be fixed with a clicker any more than they can be fixed with compulsion, and because a lot of people would not interpret your dogs (and other dogs') issues like you have.

Another sweeping statement here, but if anybody were to call you cruel or cold for ending his suffering, then they would be...wrong...in my opinion.


I would be very interested to find out how the CAT works for your dog.
Just done a bit of reading at the University of Google and it sounds very interesting.


----------



## Chris J (1 February 2011)

Thank your for your enlightened reply CaveCanem.  I understand why people do say things like "I had this dog and I did that and now he/she is fine".  I work ad an animal rescue centre and all the volunteers like to say how wonderful they are with dogs, how they all like them and such and such dog never growls at them.  I have learnt that all dogs are different and actually being good with dogs starts with asking myself the question "what am I doing wrong?" and constantly reflecting on my own behaviour both with the people I interact with and the dogs too.  

In the last month alone I have had 3 dogs with serious aggression issues towards me and other people, the worst was re-homed last week and when I had finished working with her she would let any man stroke her and I was able to get sleep from her eyes and inspect her teeth all without any fear of being bitten.  

I practise a counselling technique known as "Active Listening", it is amazing what people will tell them if you let them or to put it another way if you give someone enough rope they will hang themselves.  During my last observation of a dog class (which I would add was conducted very well and I saw some very well trained dogs) I got talking about reactive/aggressive dogs with the head trainer.  In a growl class she would remove the owner if the dog was getting aggressive and sometimes this would mean that 4 dogs would be on posts in each corner of the arena until they calmed down.  I asked her if it worked and she said it did, she then asked me why it worked (or course I knew but I'll come to that later), I replied "I don't know, I'm still learning", I removed the reward for the behaviour, the dog was seeing owner presence as a reward.  

I don't dispute that the technique works in an arena but it is very unlikely to produce a reliable behaviour change, what is actually going on is called "flooding".  She learned nothing from me and I learned something from her (all be it her failings with modern psychology).  

I compared her approach with that of another behaviourist I work with and on our first meeting to discuss my dogs behaviour, he left having learned 2 techniques from me one to deal with destructive chewing of shoes in the house and the other to improve house training with adult dogs.  I also learned from him.  

This is what self improvement is all about, remember learning stops the moment we start telling people how much we know and why they are wrong.  Another thing I have worked out is why it is so important to actually see the dog in question before offering wonderful advice.  Of course offering advice about training a dog to sit for a treat or training the down/stay is pretty generic but even then I can show you a video of a Staff cross that this technique doesn't work for and this week I have seen for the first time a springer spaniel that isn't interested in food (give yourself a poke you are not dreaming) of course someone will probably tell me this is the norm but in my own experience to date all the springers I have seen have been gutses.  The bad news this dog pulls like a train on leash, the good news it loves toys and has a solid temperament.


----------



## Chris J (20 March 2011)

I am afraid that last week I euthanased my dog, it was the hardest thing I have ever done.  It was done kindly without a struggle, with compassion and dignity.  I now spend several hours a day crying, I know I have done the right thing but it doesn't make it easy.  Next week I'll scatter his ashes in some of his favourite places and I'll always miss the cheeky mischievous side of his personality, the side that very few people got to see.


----------



## mollichop (20 March 2011)

So sorry to read this . My thoughts go out to you as you gave your dog every chance from what I gather from here.

Remember him fondly and treasure the good times.


----------



## Natch (20 March 2011)

I'm sorry you lost your dog  I think it was the right thing for you to do under the circumstances.




Chris J said:



			In a growl class she would remove the owner if the dog was getting aggressive and sometimes this would mean that 4 dogs would be on posts in each corner of the arena until they calmed down.  I asked her if it worked and she said it did, she then asked me why it worked (or course I knew but I'll come to that later), I replied "I don't know, I'm still learning", I removed the reward for the behaviour, the dog was seeing owner presence as a reward.  

I don't dispute that the technique works in an arena but it is very unlikely to produce a reliable behaviour change, what is actually going on is called "flooding".  She learned nothing from me and I learned something from her (all be it her failings with modern psychology).
		
Click to expand...

If you don't mind me asking, could you explain to me why that is flooding? I can see why the puppy starting in a fight environment would be flooding.

I am studying horse behaviour and training, so although not canine, I am interested in the theories and practical applications.


----------



## cbmcts (20 March 2011)

Chris J said:



			I am afraid that last week I euthanased my dog, it was the hardest thing I have ever done.  It was done kindly without a struggle, with compassion and dignity.  I now spend several hours a day crying, I know I have done the right thing but it doesn't make it easy.  Next week I'll scatter his ashes in some of his favourite places and I'll always miss the cheeky mischievous side of his personality, the side that very few people got to see.
		
Click to expand...

So sorry to hear this. RIP Pup.


----------



## Dobiegirl (20 March 2011)

I have sat down and read the whole of this thread and what comes through is a caring person who has gone to the back of beyond for answers. There was never an answer for this poor dog and you have done the right thing in deciding to pts. 

Please dont see this as a failure on your part because no one could have done more just take the positives from this relationship and use them to good affect with a new dog.

Good luck.


----------



## CorvusCorax (21 March 2011)

You've done the last, best thing you could have done with a dog like him. Most people will never have had a dog in their life like this, and would never be in a position to criticise.
And don't take this the wrong way, but I have a feeling that when you have have had a chance to take stock, you will feel an overwhelming sense of relief, but not in a selfish way, relief for the dog. The pressure in his head is gone from him now, he is at peace x


----------



## Ranyhyn (21 March 2011)

No-one with a brain would think of it as a failiure or an injustice.  You clearly know a lot more than some of us can hope to and you send out a very important message to the rest of us.
RIP doggy.


----------



## MurphysMinder (21 March 2011)

As I see it you have done the best possible thing for the dog.  The hardest decision of all, and the easy way out would have been to rehome him, but he didn't deserve that.  RIP fella.


----------



## YasandCrystal (21 March 2011)

Very sad thread and you did do the hardest thing there is to do. But for the sake of other dogs and owners too and your own peace of mind, it was without a doubt right.
I had an aggressive GSD and he would bite guests or anyone who entered his domain unannounced. I had some horrible times with him. We kept him , but at every door knock or visit he had to be either muzzled or shut out the back of the house. I tried corrective training but he never changed. He was a rescue dog and 3 yrs old when I got him. His saving grace was that he was safe out on a walk and he would actively shun away from people.

He was pts when his hips deteriorated beyond medication at 11 years old. Do you know when I then got a Swedish Vallhund pup - I could see the ease of having a 'normal' dog - all that anxiety that we as a family had become so accustomed to from the GSD was gone. I loved the dog, but I couldn't go through that again. Maybe that is selfish of me.
I now have a similar situation with a horse who is aggressive and a danger.....he may ultimately have to be pts  ;-( I think they see me coming.


----------



## Chris J (16 April 2011)

Thank you all for your kind words.  

I have been looking after a friends dog for the last couple of weeks which has been very nice for me to restore some confidence in myself.  I would like to share with you all a good example of how judgemental people can be with this sort of thing, someone who I used to call a friend had been telling people who I know that he thought what I had done was wrong, in his life he has owned a total of zero dogs and has trained a total of zero dogs and yet he felt able to pass judgement on my abilities with training dogs.  I felt so hurt when I found this out, needless to say right now I no longer consider him a friend.  

Jake who is a black cocker spaniel initially snarled at me when I met him, that was two weeks ago, he has spent the last two weeks following me around off leash and being a very good friend, his tail never stops and apart from flushing up anything that moves when told "free" is perfect, his recall from flushing is pretty good.  Though he's just not a dog to let off leash in a conservation area.  He has been wonderful company though and it is nice for me to experience dog ownership as it should be.  

Spaniels are not a breed that I usually form close bonds with but this little chap is a bit different, maybe it's because he is a true working dog, on leash he pulls a bit, it's still a bit raw for me to consider getting another dog of my own but looking after Jake has been a nice reminder of what I missed over the last eighteen months.  

Thank you all once again for your support and kindness.

Chris


----------



## Dobiegirl (16 April 2011)

So glad you have posted again and Im sorry over your friends reaction and can imagine how hurtful it must have been to have heard that.

You can choose your friends and if it was me they would be off my Xmas card list you are better off without them.

After what you have been through I agree with you that it is probabley too early to think of having another dog but glad to hear you are keeping your hand in.

Good luck to you.


----------

