# The SNP and Mrs Nicola Sturgeon



## Judgemental (13 July 2016)

Let all good hunting folk, country men and women. Patriots of this great nation, not lose sight of the greatest threat to the stability of the United Kingdom in the form of the SNP and Mrs Nicola Sturgeon.

Their and her agenda, is wholly incompatible with a cohesive nation.

Furthermore their activities in the House of Commons are disruptive and gratuitously uncooperative.

The sooner we have English votes for English Laws the better.

Also, unless Mrs Sturgeon learns to behave herself and act in the best interests of the whole of the United Kingdom, she should find funding under Barnett Consequential for Scotland, dramatically curtailed.


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## Alec Swan (13 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Their and her agenda, is wholly incompatible with a cohesive nation.

&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Had we a cohesive nation,  I'd accept your point!

That said,  Mrs Sturgeon is vixen like in her guile,  and the SNP currently seem to hold the balance of persuasion,  if not power.  I wonder what would have happened if the Scottish Indy vote had gone the other way and by an equally narrow margin.  Would the lady have been in support,  and risked losing the level of currently disruptive influence which she has?  The woman's an opportunist,  nothing more or less.

Alec.


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## Judgemental (13 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Had we a cohesive nation,  I'd accept your point!

That said,  Mrs Sturgeon is vixen like in her guile,  and the SNP currently seem to hold the balance of persuasion,  if not power.  I wonder what would have happened if the Scottish Indy vote had gone the other way and by an equally narrow margin.  Would the lady have been in support,  and risked losing the level of currently disruptive influence which she has?  The woman's an opportunist,  nothing more or less.

Alec.
		
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Exactly Alec you are hitting the nail  on the head when you say "is vixen like in her guile".

That was certainly what I saw, with her new £2,000.00 suit to ingratiate herself with the EU heads of state, following the Brexit Vote,  in the most vain glorious display of impossible self importance we have seen from a politician for many moons.

The most constructive thing folk who post on this forum can do, is impress upon their MP's the very urgent need for English Votes for English Laws. 

Hopefully, for contributors here, north of the border, to let it be known and join in the ground swell of Anglo Scottish cohesiveness and for the Sturgeon to be reduced in importance and esteem. It is only her activities that are fueling the SNP.

Hopefully the Campaign for Rural England etc will join the need.


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## Buddy'sMum (13 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			That was certainly what I saw, with her new £2,000.00 suit to ingratiate herself with the EU heads of state, following the Brexit Vote,  in the most vain glorious display of impossible self importance we have seen from a politician for many moons.
		
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Oh please! what is the woman supposed to wear, a bloody bin bag? 



Judgemental said:



			Hopefully, for contributors here, north of the border, to let it be known and join in the ground swell of Anglo Scottish cohesiveness and for the Sturgeon to be reduced in importance and esteem. It is only her activities that are fueling the SNP.
		
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Ground swell of Anglo Scottish cohesiveness?  What rock are you living under, Judgemental?

As for English votes for English laws, yeah, you can have that. Just as soon as Scots get a government they actually voted for!!


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## MotherOfChickens (13 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			It is only her activities that are fueling the SNP.

.
		
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you ever ventured into Scotland? the SNP have some very talented young politicians, if you think that Sturgeon going 'away' will stop the SNP you've been living under a rock.


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## Countryman (13 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			As for English votes for English laws, yeah, you can have that. Just as soon as Scots get a government they actually voted for!!
		
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I think that's commonly known as the Scottish Government. The sooner the situation is evened out by giving English MP's votes on solely English matters, the better.


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## Judgemental (13 July 2016)

Countryman said:



			I think that's commonly known as the Scottish Government. The sooner the situation is evened out by giving English MP's votes on solely English matters, the better.
		
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Excellent comment Countryman.

The sooner these Scots come to their senses and realise that Scotland will not remain in the EU, largely because the EU won't entertain them - ever.

That and the sooner they consider the practicalities and look at proper patriotism towards the UK, which will be reciprocated with equal patriotism.

Frankly Sturgeon is living in Cloud Cuckoo land, in order to give herself a platform upon which to grandstand her inflated misguided ego, that you could not smash with a steam hammer.


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## MotherOfChickens (13 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			and look at proper patriotism towards the UK, which will be reciprocated with equal patriotism.
		
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jog on.


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## Judgemental (13 July 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			jog on.
		
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That is the sort of attitude that does nothing for national unity and fuels Sturgeon's wholly misguided self promotion.


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## MotherOfChickens (13 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			That is the sort of attitude that does nothing for national unity and fuels Sturgeon's wholly misguided self promotion.
		
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but there's nothing wrong with your attitude? I shouldn't rise to it, you are an obvious troll.


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## popsdosh (13 July 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			but there's nothing wrong with your attitude? I shouldn't rise to it, you are an obvious troll.
		
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Luckily fish face had a surprise when she went to europe she got told to go home as they could only talk with the elected government of a EU member would love to have seen that one.

Not sure how many may have seen this doing the rounds,
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...5&set=a.1286969711353.31734.1743506097&type=3


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## alainax (13 July 2016)

The op is surely having a laugh right? No one is that narrow minded! 

Op, try living in a country where your vote doesn't count. 

Let's imagine the English vote for a Centre right government, but a bigger country next door decide they want a far left government. so you just have to lump it with the far left. Imagine England all vote and wish to remain as is, but The bigger country next door want to join up with a new allegiance with the Far East. You also just have to put up with that. Imagine living in a country where there is no such thing as democracy, where what your fellow countrymen vote for is not what they get, infact the polar opposite. Scotland and England are very different countries, what suits one does not suit the other. The people of Scotland vote to try and do what is best for their country, and yet posters like this seem to think we are just north England.

If you want cohesion, you need to find a solution where each country is given the opportunity to flourish, and not be dictated to by the wishes of another which simply do not fit. A United Kingdom where each country works together on a united front, whilst understanding the needs of the separate entities and not forcing them into a situation where democracy fails. 

I am Scottish and have no issues with English votes on things that only matter in England. But in the same respect, Scotland should not be forced against its will to do whatever the hell England wants!


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## alainax (13 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			Also, unless Mrs Sturgeon learns to behave herself and act in the best interests of the whole of the United Kingdom, she should find funding under Barnett Consequential for Scotland, dramatically curtailed.
		
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You and this attitude is precisely the reason the United Kingdom is failing. Well done.


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## Judgemental (13 July 2016)

alainax said:



			The op is surely having a laugh right? No one is that narrow minded! 

Op, try living in a country where your vote doesn't count. 

Let's imagine the English vote for a Centre right government, but a bigger country next door decide they want a far left government. so you just have to lump it with the far left. Imagine England all vote and wish to remain as is, but The bigger country next door want to join up with a new allegiance with the Far East. You also just have to put up with that. Imagine living in a country where there is no such thing as democracy, where what your fellow countrymen vote for is not what they get, infact the polar opposite. Scotland and England are very different countries, what suits one does not suit the other. The people of Scotland vote to try and do what is best for their country, and yet posters like this seem to think we are just north England.

If you want cohesion, you need to find a solution where each country is given the opportunity to flourish, and not be dictated to by the wishes of another which simply do not fit. A United Kingdom where each country works together on a united front, whilst understanding the needs of the separate entities and not forcing them into a situation where democracy fails. 

I am Scottish and have no issues with English votes on things that only matter in England. But in the same respect, Scotland should not be forced against its will to do whatever the hell England wants!
		
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Its all a state of mind, you can change that, but you cannot change the geography.

The UK is a tiny collection of islands which, for example fit into the state of California two and half times. It's only 900 miles from north to south.

I have no issue with Scotland but cannot see why they think they should be a separate country.

Sturgeon went to to Brussels and was told to go home, the EU leaders were not prepared to talk to her and that I am reliably informed will always remain the position in perpetuity. Because the remaining EU members see Scotland as a financial liability, who cannot meet the membership fees.

Independence and home rule, call it what you will, it's a nice idea but it is all a fearful effort and for what?

In my humble opinion, "its a case of the grass is always greener".

Perhaps it would be a good idea to see how well disposed the new PM and her government are towards Scotland and if there is reasonable give and take, perhaps there would be additional help, if the Sturgeon stops throwing her toys out of the pram. I am very familiar with Scotland both geographically and economically.


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## Buddy'sMum (13 July 2016)

Countryman said:



			I think that's commonly known as the Scottish Government. The sooner the situation is evened out by giving English MP's votes on solely English matters, the better.
		
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And if you had even a remote understanding of how the Scottish Parliament works you would know that it can only legislate on certain areas, with many issues reserved for Westminster. You know, a Westminster government we didn't vote for.  

I have no issue with EVEL, as long as the issues voted on are ones which truly affect England only. But I very much doubt  that Mr Bercow has the ability to  make that determination. So no, it's not levelling the playing field at all.


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## Buddy'sMum (13 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			That is the sort of attitude that does nothing for national unity and fuels Sturgeon's wholly misguided self promotion.
		
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Oh, our nation is united. Against eejits like you.


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## popsdosh (13 July 2016)

I must admit I really struggle to take the independance stance seriously when she is still happy to be ruled from Brussels.

Secretly NS got exactly what she wanted and expected from the referendum. the chance to force another independence vote except im not sure she has the balls to risk it as there maybe a backlash when people see through it. I think a lot of the remain campain miss the irony that if scotlands vote was judged on its own ,the out campaign has an even larger majority without our northern cousins .


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## Countryman (13 July 2016)

alainax said:



			The op is surely having a laugh right? No one is that narrow minded! 

Op, try living in a country where your vote doesn't count. 

Let's imagine the English vote for a Centre right government, but a bigger country next door decide they want a far left government. so you just have to lump it with the far left. Imagine England all vote and wish to remain as is, but The bigger country next door want to join up with a new allegiance with the Far East. You also just have to put up with that. Imagine living in a country where there is no such thing as democracy, where what your fellow countrymen vote for is not what they get, infact the polar opposite. Scotland and England are very different countries, what suits one does not suit the other. The people of Scotland vote to try and do what is best for their country, and yet posters like this seem to think we are just north England.

If you want cohesion, you need to find a solution where each country is given the opportunity to flourish, and not be dictated to by the wishes of another which simply do not fit. A United Kingdom where each country works together on a united front, whilst understanding the needs of the separate entities and not forcing them into a situation where democracy fails. 

I am Scottish and have no issues with English votes on things that only matter in England. But in the same respect, Scotland should not be forced against its will to do whatever the hell England wants!
		
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Funnily enough that has happened many times in the past - with Labour being kept in power in Westminster, and so consequently ruling England, due to large numbers of Labour MP's elected in Scotland. But it was accepted that this was a price to pay when in a political union that has been incredibly successful for the last 300 years.


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## popsdosh (14 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			And if you had even a remote understanding of how the Scottish Parliament works you would know that it can only legislate on certain areas, with many issues reserved for Westminster. You know, a Westminster government we didn't vote for.  

I have no issue with EVEL, as long as the issues voted on are ones which truly affect England only. But I very much doubt  that Mr Bercow has the ability to  make that determination. So no, it's not levelling the playing field at all.
		
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So please explain why she felt she had to get involved in the hunting vote in England when it had no implications at all north of the border. She had even said during the election that the SNP would not get involved. It is two faced hipocrisy we want to make our own legislation but we will quite happily screw up yours as well . Chip and shoulder are two words that may describe why.


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## Lintel (14 July 2016)

Wow. 
You never know what you'll encounter when you pop your head round into the Hunting Forum. - Heads back to the TackRoom.


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## Buddy'sMum (14 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			So please explain why she felt she had to get involved in the hunting vote in England when it had no implications at all north of the border. She had even said during the election that the SNP would not get involved. It is two faced hipocrisy we want to make our own legislation but we will quite happily screw up yours as well . Chip and shoulder are two words that may describe why.
		
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Well, as until the hunting ban vote, the position of the SNP had been not to vote on matters which purely concern England, I'd say she was sending a message to Cameron. Or maybe she made a stand on behalf of the 75% of the UK population who oppose fox hunting?


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## Judgemental (14 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Well, as until the hunting ban vote, the position of the SNP had been not to vote on matters which purely concern England, I'd say she was sending a message to Cameron. Or maybe she made a stand on behalf of the 75% of the UK population who oppose fox hunting?
		
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She and her minions decided for childishly, immature and gratuitously silly reasons to Welch on an agreement with the government.

As a result use of the Statutory Instrument to amend the Hunting Act 2004, could not be used. Indeed to amend the act to bring it into line with the legislation in Scotland.

There is nothing that upsets folk more, especially country folk is people who Welch on an agreement for no good reason.

Sturgeon and her mob are not going to be forgiven for that and I dare say the co-operation she wants re the EU is simply not there as a result.

Time the lady was taught a lesson or two in good manners.


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## Judgemental (14 July 2016)

That goes for the leader of the SNP in the House of Commons, Angus Robertson, who was thoroughly churlish and could not wish David Cameron well, at the last prime Ministers Questions, yesterday.

Instead was banging on about Scottish Independence.

If they can't stand by agreements as small as issues over the Hunting Act 2004, they can't be allowed any measure of independence because they are unreliable and very immature.

The EU are not going to give them the time of day, let alone membership.


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## Countryman (14 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Well, as until the hunting ban vote, the position of the SNP had been not to vote on matters which purely concern England, I'd say she was sending a message to Cameron.
		
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Precisely. Playing politics with people's lives. Exactly the kind of behaviour the SNP like to pretend they are against. I suspect it has backfired though, as many English MP's are so worried by this inequality that the introduction of proper EVEL looks likely and soon.


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## Buddy'sMum (14 July 2016)

Countryman said:



			Precisely. Playing politics with people's lives. Exactly the kind of behaviour the SNP like to pretend they are against. I suspect it has backfired though, as many English MP's are so worried by this inequality that the introduction of proper EVEL looks likely and soon.
		
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Do try to keep up Countryman, EVEL has already been implemented.


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## Judgemental (14 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Oh please! what is the woman supposed to wear, a bloody bin bag?
		
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No but if she is really interested in Scotland, instead of the overly tight fitting pencil line skirts on her derriere, leaving nothing to the imagination, a nice Tweed would be far more appropriate.

Or indeed a pleated Kilt

Short heeled brogues  etc.

If you are high profile it is easy to support a primary industry making cloth for which Scotland is famous, by wearing the fabric.

When I see that, we will know there is a measure of sincerity in NS


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## Countryman (14 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Do try to keep up Countryman, EVEL has already been implemented.
		
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No. It has not. But I'm glad you agree it is the right thing to do.
The current situation can in no way be described as EVEL.


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## Buddy'sMum (14 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			No but if she is really interested in Scotland, instead of the overly tight fitting pencil line skirts on her derriere, leaving nothing to the imagination, a nice Tweed would be far more appropriate.

Or indeed a pleated Kilt

Short heeled brogues  etc.

If you are high profile it is easy to support a primary industry making cloth for which Scotland is famous, by wearing the fabric.

When I see that, we will know there is a measure of sincerity in NS
		
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 Think it's time you tootled off back under that bridge, eh Judgemental?


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## Buddy'sMum (14 July 2016)

Countryman said:



			No. It has not.
		
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Wasn't the Housing and Planning Bill subject to EVEL?



Countryman said:



			But I'm glad you agree it is the right thing to do.
		
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 In theory, I don't have a problem with English MPs voting on issues which concern England only, which have no knock-on effects on the other countries in the UK. But I don't believe the current EVEL format guarantees this.


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## dibbin (14 July 2016)

Not much to add, other than that I agree wholeheartedly with MotherOfChickens, Buddy'sMum and alainax.

Countryman - I agree, the Union has worked superbly for the last 300 years. If you're in England.

Judgemental, you are well named. Back under the bridge, please.


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## Countryman (14 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Wasn't the Housing and Planning Bill subject to EVEL?

 In theory, I don't have a problem with English MPs voting on issues which concern England only, which have no knock-on effects on the other countries in the UK. But I don't believe the current EVEL format guarantees this.
		
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Unfortunately there is no current EVEL. Rather, on matters which are England-only, for example, English MP's have an special input on most aspects of new legislation. They cannot repeal old, and they cannot veto anything - everybody can vote on it in the Third Reading (which is what counts and determines whether a law passes).


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## Judgemental (14 July 2016)

Buddy's Mum, all I am suggesting Mrs Sturgeon uses her high profile to advertise Scottish Tweeds.

Are you suggesting NS should not bother with promoting the industry?


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## Judgemental (14 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



 Think it's time you tootled off back under that bridge, eh Judgemental?
		
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Buddy's Mum, all I am suggesting is that Mrs Sturgeon uses her high profile to advertise Scottish Tweeds.

Are you suggesting NS should not bother with promoting the industry?


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## Buddy'sMum (14 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			Buddy's Mum, all I am suggesting is that Mrs Sturgeon uses her high profile to advertise Scottish Tweeds.

Are you suggesting NS should not bother with promoting the industry?
		
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And here I was thinking you were a raging chauvinist. My mistake.
For the record, the First Minister goes out of her way to support Scottish tweeds and designers
http://www.heraldscotland.com/life_style/13211550.In_pictures__Nicola_Sturgeon_s_style_evolution/


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## Roasted Chestnuts (14 July 2016)

alainax said:



			The op is surely having a laugh right? No one is that narrow minded! 

Op, try living in a country where your vote doesn't count. 

Let's imagine the English vote for a Centre right government, but a bigger country next door decide they want a far left government. so you just have to lump it with the far left. Imagine England all vote and wish to remain as is, but The bigger country next door want to join up with a new allegiance with the Far East. You also just have to put up with that. Imagine living in a country where there is no such thing as democracy, where what your fellow countrymen vote for is not what they get, infact the polar opposite. Scotland and England are very different countries, what suits one does not suit the other. The people of Scotland vote to try and do what is best for their country, and yet posters like this seem to think we are just north England.

If you want cohesion, you need to find a solution where each country is given the opportunity to flourish, and not be dictated to by the wishes of another which simply do not fit. A United Kingdom where each country works together on a united front, whilst understanding the needs of the separate entities and not forcing them into a situation where democracy fails. 

I am Scottish and have no issues with English votes on things that only matter in England. But in the same respect, Scotland should not be forced against its will to do whatever the hell England wants!
		
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Fabulous post *claps loudly and nods*


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## Roasted Chestnuts (14 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			No but if she is really interested in Scotland, instead of the overly tight fitting pencil line skirts on her derriere, leaving nothing to the imagination, a nice Tweed would be far more appropriate.

Or indeed a pleated Kilt

Short heeled brogues  etc.

If you are high profile it is easy to support a primary industry making cloth for which Scotland is famous, by wearing the fabric.

When I see that, we will know there is a measure of sincerity in NS
		
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Wow your a bitter twisted fanatic aren't you? I actually can't take anything you post seriously because it's making me yawn with its childish finger pointing. She did it miss, her that I'm insanely jealous of her wardrobe and how much better she looks in a skirt than I'd do. Honestly, ridiculous.

Pops off back to the (now sane looking ) main areas of HHO


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## ester (14 July 2016)

I love the suggestion that people can be judged on what they wear, WTF is a short-heeled brogue?! In fact I have no idea why what anyone wears really matters so long as bits are covered up .
But yes, clearly she should only be allowed to step out of her house in tweed or tartan......................


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## Shutterbug (14 July 2016)

Nicola Sturgeon is the only MP in the UK who had her **** together following an EU vote result that nobody in the Tory party saw coming. She was not chased away from Brussels and she is neither stupid nor naive enough to believe that going there following the result was going to magically mean Scotland got to stay in the EU.  However she resides over a country that voted to remain and she must be seen to be doing all she can to investigate every option and build relationships to ensure the voice of Scotland is heard and that is what she us doing.  And she's making the rest look like a shower of bumbling private school boys with no plan A.  She entered discussions in Brussels to ensure that the Scottish vote was heard and noticed and she was welcomed.  They showed a great deal of sympathy and she has opened avenues of discussion for future relations.  You conveniently forget that one of the running campaign promises of the No campaign was that of Scotland wanted to remain in the EU it would have to vote No.  Turns out that was a load of *******s. The goalposts have been moved.

And can people not understand that being part of the U.K. Is not and never has been the same as being a member of the EU. I assume you all get that the UK was still an independent country wile part of the EU yeah?

Scotland has an entirely different attitude towards Europe, that much is very clear.


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## Judgemental (14 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			Scotland has an entirely different attitude towards Europe, that much is very clear.
		
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and seemingly the sense of honor so far as agreements concerning English Votes for English laws, especially the agreement to stand aside from any vote concerning the Hunting Act 2004

Had they the SNP, on the instruction of The Vixen, done a) as she said the party would do during the election campaign and b) honored that pledge, then I for one would not have given the SNP a second thought and I don't suppose the majority of posters here would participate.

In fact they might very well have cheered her on, so far her EU ambitions are concerned.

Furthermore the quite amazing fact of the matter is, that had the vote using the Statutory Instrument taken place and been successful, it would have merely have brought the legislation into line with contemporary legislation in Scotland concerning hunting with hounds.

Cross or Welch on an agreement with hunting folk and you can take it you are finished and they will 'hound' you for evermore.

I guarantee NS and the SNP will never get a sniff of independence and the EU because they cannot be trusted.


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## Shutterbug (14 July 2016)

Haha! If this current government was in a way shape of form upholding its promises to Scotland (remember they said a No vote was the only way to guarantee remaining in EU) then perhaps they will be well placed to point the finger at any other party and accuse them of being untrustworthy.

Why don't you just admit that your pissed because NS threw a spanner in the works as far as the hunting repeal is concerned and get over it.

Incidentally the hunting ban affects the whole
of the U.K. So they were perfectly entitled to take a stand and represent the opinions of their constituents who demanded that they vote on it.


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## Alec Swan (14 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

And can people not understand that being part of the U.K. Is not and never has been the same as being a member of the EU. &#8230;&#8230;..

I assume you all get that the UK was still an independent country wile part of the EU yeah?

Scotland has an entirely different attitude towards Europe, that much is very clear.
		
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It is and always has been the intention of the EU moguls that every individual State will lose it's individuality.  

The greater the EU control of States so the less the independence of individual States.

Scotland's approach to the EU has been one whereby Brussels has been a benefactor,  which explains the 'attitude',  and which in turn explains why Brussels won't have them join without being attached to the UK.  Too much of a liability.

Had Scotland a vibrant economy and could stand squarely on its feet,  Mrs Sturgeon would have been welcomed with open arms.  Scotland remains as  a dependent upon the rest of the UK.  I don't like that fact any more than anyone else,  but it's how it is.  Were Westminster to invest heavily in Scotland and support their own finance generating abilities,  it would be a different matter.

Alec.


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## Shutterbug (14 July 2016)

That's a hypothetical scenario that has been kicking sound since the 1400's and gets brought up constantly yet the EU has no current policy to create either a federation or a confederation.  Not one single member state of the EU has lost its independence has since its inception in 1957. 

As for Scotland, 2nd largest economy in the UK and 12the largest economy of the 28 member states. Several EU countries have already spoken out in support of Scotland being a member state, Poland, France Germany, Belgium. Two senior EEP members have spoken out in support.  The Union of Democrats and Independants have stated the EU should welcome Scotland and a senior Eurozone official has said they would fast rack any application from Scotland to join. That's just the ones I know about 

We're Westminster to invest heavily in Scotland we woud not be where we are today. Independants may not happen soon but it will happen.


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## popsdosh (14 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			Haha! If this current government was in a way shape of form upholding its promises to Scotland (remember they said a No vote was the only way to guarantee remaining in EU) then perhaps they will be well placed to point the finger at any other party and accuse them of being untrustworthy.

Why don't you just admit that your pissed because NS threw a spanner in the works as far as the hunting repeal is concerned and get over it.

Incidentally the hunting ban affects the whole
of the U.K. So they were perfectly entitled to take a stand and represent the opinions of their constituents who demanded that they vote on it.
		
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Get real the legislation is different for scotland luckily it was devolved to them so why stick their beaks into it when it comes to England ,NS actually gave that as the reason when she said they would not interfer in the Vote. However the SNP has this wonderful set up with a leader who is not in westminster so they just play games saying it wasnt me it was him.. When are you going to realise that if England did not subsidise our cousins north of the border NS would not be able to give away all the perks that she has to her electorate at the expense of English tax payers if you dont believe that check out the Barnett formula which means in scotland you get 18% higher government spending per head than England  . If I am totally honest I am fed up with the whingeing coming from up there if the vote had gone the other way and the uk stayed in against the English vote we are meant to just accept that and move on  which we would have done. You really do sound like spoilt brats sometimes and if not careful one day you may find that you dont need a vote to get your interdependence.  As I said before NS thinks christmas has come an excuse for another once in a lifetime referendum on Independence not sure so many north of the border will go along with her. As for Brussels LOL the actual wording was that NS did not represent a legitimate nation state and she got told to B****r off, however she dressed it up for home consumption!


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## Shutterbug (14 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Get real the legislation is different for scotland luckily it was devolved to them so why stick their beaks into it when it comes to England ,NS actually gave that as the reason when she said they would not interfer in the Vote. However the SNP has this wonderful set up with a leader who is not in westminster so they just play games saying it wasnt me it was him.. When are you going to realise that if England did not subsidise our cousins north of the border NS would not be able to give away all the perks that she has to her electorate at the expense of English tax payers . If I am totally honest I am fed up with the whingeing coming from up there if the vote had gone the other way and the uk stayed in against the English vote we are meant to just accept that and move on  which we would have done. However as I said before NS thinks christmas has come an excuse for another once in a lifetime referendum on indepedance not sure so many north of the border will go along with her. As for Brussels LOL the actual wording was that NS did not respresent a legitimate nation state and she got told to B****r off, however she dressed it up for home consumption!
		
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If you think for one second that Scotland is subsidised by England then you are the one that needs to, as you politely put it, "get real" .  Repeat a lie often enough and idiots will buy it indeed. This isn't my creation but I find it handy to provide as a point of education to people who perpetuate this myth.

The Scottish subsidy myth

1979 to 1997 the lifetime of the Tory governments of Thatcher and Major - a table question in parliament revealed during this period Scotland gave £27bn more than was received. 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/...eived-1.406190

That's a lot of money Scotland lost. Add to this Scotland having to pay interest on loans and debts it didn't need bumps the figure even higher. 



So what about more recent times 

The Institute of Fiscal Studies in 2013 provided a breakdown of taxes from each of the 4 parts of the UK and found Scots pay more taxes per head than the other 3 countries. 

http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/6881


What is difficult to find is a comparative breakdown of taxes and revenues by region but The Centre for Economics and Business Research have managed top do this and state state Scotland receives no net subsidy 

http://www.cebr.com/reports/how-mone...idises-others/


Now The Daily Mail ceased on the figures usefully broken down in the following link to highlight what London pays but what is clear is Scotland is not a subsidised region, in fact, of the 13 regions (including 9 from England) Scotland is only one of 4 that receives no net subsidy. 

So the idea that The English taxpayer subsidises the Scots is a preposterous especially when you consider 6 of the English regions receive subsidies Scotland doesn't. 

A word on London revenues. Yes it the economic powerhouse and it revenues provide susbsidies around the UK (excluding Scotland) but the tax and revenue spend doesnt includes big capital project spending which London has received lots of but also its prosperity has it roots in the vast oil revenues in the 1980s at the disposal of the UK government being used not spread the wealth across the UK but create an economic boom in the SE of England. The rest of the UK deserves the payback.


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## Alec Swan (14 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

As for Scotland, 2nd largest economy in the UK and 12the largest economy of the 28 member states. &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Without the support of the rest of the UK,  do you honestly think that Scotland's economy would be ranked as 12th. and within the entire EU?  Honestly?  It doesn't say much for the remaining 16 nations,  does it?

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (14 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			If you think for one second that Scotland is subsidised by England then you are the one that needs to, as you politely put it, "get real" .  &#8230;&#8230;..
		
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OK,  separate from the UK,  Scotland can stand on its own feet,  and we'll see what happens, &#8230;&#8230;.. that is if the EU will accept Scotland as a single entity.  Even Brussels aren't that daft.

Alec.


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			OK,  separate from the UK,  Scotland can stand on its own feet,  and we'll see what happens, &#8230;&#8230;.. that is if the EU will accept Scotland as a single entity.  Even Brussels aren't that daft.

Alec.
		
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It's a plan but can they pay for their own referendum this time I don't want to fork out again .
I would rather pay a few nurses .


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## MotherOfChickens (14 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			If you think for one second that Scotland is subsidised by England then you are the one that needs to, as you politely put it, "get real" .  Repeat a lie often enough and idiots will buy it indeed. This isn't my creation but I find it handy to provide as a point of education to people who perpetuate this myth.

The Scottish subsidy myth

1979 to 1997 the lifetime of the Tory governments of Thatcher and Major - a table question in parliament revealed during this period Scotland gave £27bn more than was received. 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/...eived-1.406190

That's a lot of money Scotland lost. Add to this Scotland having to pay interest on loans and debts it didn't need bumps the figure even higher. 



So what about more recent times 

The Institute of Fiscal Studies in 2013 provided a breakdown of taxes from each of the 4 parts of the UK and found Scots pay more taxes per head than the other 3 countries. 

http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/6881


What is difficult to find is a comparative breakdown of taxes and revenues by region but The Centre for Economics and Business Research have managed top do this and state state Scotland receives no net subsidy 

http://www.cebr.com/reports/how-mone...idises-others/


Now The Daily Mail ceased on the figures usefully broken down in the following link to highlight what London pays but what is clear is Scotland is not a subsidised region, in fact, of the 13 regions (including 9 from England) Scotland is only one of 4 that receives no net subsidy. 

So the idea that The English taxpayer subsidises the Scots is a preposterous especially when you consider 6 of the English regions receive subsidies Scotland doesn't. 

A word on London revenues. Yes it the economic powerhouse and it revenues provide susbsidies around the UK (excluding Scotland) but the tax and revenue spend doesnt includes big capital project spending which London has received lots of but also its prosperity has it roots in the vast oil revenues in the 1980s at the disposal of the UK government being used not spread the wealth across the UK but create an economic boom in the SE of England. The rest of the UK deserves the payback.
		
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thanks for the post shutterbug. unfortunately those posting in opposition to you one here have demonstrated before that they won't, or can't, pay any attention to pesky facts-even when you spoon feed them the data yourself.


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## ROG (14 July 2016)

If Scotland ever split and joined the EU then we would need a land border which would be unenforceable - that is why Ireland will not have one but thats ok because there can be one on the mainland

A water border is needed to be reasonably enforceable without costing loads of tax money


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## Shutterbug (14 July 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			It's a plan but can they pay for their own referendum this time I don't want to fork out again .
I would rather pay a few nurses .
		
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The Scottish Government did pay for the referendum last time.


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2016)

ROG said:



			If Scotland ever split and joined the EU then we would need a land border which would be unenforceable - that is why Ireland will not have one but thats ok because there can be one on the mainland

A water border is needed to be reasonably enforceable without costing loads of tax money
		
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Other countries all over the world manage this issue .


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## Judgemental (14 July 2016)

Goodness me 5,242 views since I started this thread only yesterday at 10:00 am.

That may be a record for H & H in terms of views in such a short space of time.

Well at least we are doing something useful for H & H's advertising revenue.

5,242 I wonder if the SNP are monitoring this, because they knew that eventually their disgraceful deceit concerning the Hunting Act 2004 would eventually run them to ground. This is a subject they certainly do not want aired at this time.

Normally we only see a dozen views per day on any subject,

Or unless hunting folk are really steamed up about the SNP. I suspect they, the SNP are watching this thread and are in blind panic.

If I lived in Scotland and had voted to remain in the EU, unless the whole of the UK was going to carry the day, I would not want to go anywhere near the EU with the Vixen and SNP in control, because I would not trust them.

For those who do not know,  or have forgotten, the amendment to the Statutory Instrument was actually set down for debate in the House of Commons, in the autumn last year. However it had to be 'pulled' at the very last minute because the SNP said they would vote against.

Duplicitous or what!


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			The Scottish Government did pay for the referendum last time.
		
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Really ?


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## Shutterbug (14 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			OK,  separate from the UK,  Scotland can stand on its own feet,  and we'll see what happens, &#8230;&#8230;.. that is if the EU will accept Scotland as a single entity.  Even Brussels aren't that daft.

Alec.
		
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There is no suggestion they won't accept Scotland as an Independant country, in fact all recent signs point to an independent Scotland being welcomed, even fast tracked to the EU as a member state.  public opinion in Europe shows the vast majority of their voting public want Scotland to join.


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## Shutterbug (14 July 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Really ?
		
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Yes, 

https://fullfact.org/scotland/ask-full-fact-who-paying-scottish-referendum/


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## Shutterbug (14 July 2016)

Sorry if my links don't work I'm on an iPad in hospital and not sure if they are showing correctly - I'm not being lazy honest......well maybe just a little but that's the pain killers lol


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			There is no suggestion they won't accept Scotland as an Independant country, in fact all recent signs point to an independent Scotland being welcomed, even fast tracked to the EU as a member state.  public opinion in Europe shows the vast majority of their voting public want Scotland to join.
		
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How you get Spain to vote you in ?
They don't like separatists .


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## Alec Swan (14 July 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			thanks for the post shutterbug. unfortunately those posting in opposition to you one here have demonstrated before that they won't, or can't, pay any attention to pesky facts-even when you spoon feed them the data yourself.
		
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It's irritating I understand,  when the Mr Macawber aspect stands in the way of those who spout theory and 'claimed' facts.

Even with EU assistance,  Scotland cannot stand alone.  Truly I wish that it was otherwise,  but it isn't.  Scotland will remain the poor relative until Westminster steps up and ploughs in the needed nitrogen of finance.  

I'm part Scot and part Irish and have feet in both camps.  I feel very strongly on the issue which may be obvious,  but without the support of the remainder of the UK,  FOR NOW,  Scotland cannot be independent of us.  Again I wish that it was otherwise,  but it isn't.

The whole concept of Scottish independence worries me greatly. 

Alec.


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## Shutterbug (14 July 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			How you get Spain to vote you in ?
They don't like separatists .
		
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Spain have said they will not negotiate with Scotland as an entity, they will only deal with the U.K. Leaders and rightly so as we are part of the U.K. - I don't think they have said they will block an Independant Scotland from joining, as this would be after independence. Spain won't be seen to support any kind of agreement with Scotland while its part on the UK as it doesn't want to encourage Catalonia


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## popsdosh (14 July 2016)

ROG said:



			If Scotland ever split and joined the EU then we would need a land border which would be unenforceable - that is why Ireland will not have one but thats ok because there can be one on the mainland

A water border is needed to be reasonably enforceable without costing loads of tax money
		
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There was indeed a joke going around in the army around the last referendum . Why were they all being sent on exercises along Hadrians wall.

However it is indeed a serious question!!! I wonder how many in Scotland would indeed accept the euro as a currency as they would have no choice. What those in Scotland seem not to appreciate is that at the moment they have it all their own way they can at any time suits them screw up any legislation that does not affect them in the slightest . The only thing that NS showed when she sabotaged the hunting bill was that she could be sucked in and be shown to be the fraud she was thought to be. It just brought true devolution for England a step closer .
.


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## millikins (14 July 2016)

if the SNP are truly serious about another independence vote perhaps they should insist that it is open to the English voter too. I think they could be reasonably certain of the outcome then.


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## popsdosh (14 July 2016)

millikins said:



			if the SNP are truly serious about another independence vote perhaps they should insist that it is open to the English voter too. I think they could be reasonably certain of the outcome then.
		
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Need a like button for that!!!


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## Alec Swan (14 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Need a like button for that!!!
		
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Snap!  There is in fact a move to force Independence upon Scotland.  Never mind 'We want to leave'. &#8230;&#8230;.. Excellent, '&#8230;&#8230;.. Go'!

Sturgeon has become something of a prima donna,  and she needs to grasp the concept of negotiation.

Alec.


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2016)

millikins said:



			if the SNP are truly serious about another independence vote perhaps they should insist that it is open to the English voter too. I think they could be reasonably certain of the outcome then.
		
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Inspired .
But I don't think I have the strength ATM.
All this EU thing has me exhausted .


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## Buddy'sMum (14 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			I suspect they, the SNP are watching this thread and are in blind panic.
		
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Yes, Judgemental, of course they are. Sheesh


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## Shutterbug (14 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Snap!  There is in fact a move to force Independence upon Scotland.  Never mind 'We want to leave'. &#8230;&#8230;.. Excellent, '&#8230;&#8230;.. Go'!

Sturgeon has become something of a prima donna,  and she needs to grasp the concept of negotiation.

Alec.
		
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What specifically has she done that gives you the impression that she has no negotiation skills?  And has become a Prima Donna??


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## Alec Swan (14 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			What specifically has she done that gives you the impression that she has no negotiation skills?  And has become a Prima Donna??
		
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Her demands and bullish approach.  Perhaps it's how the media reports her,  and if that's the problem then there are other routes by which she can have the world understand her.

Alec.


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## popsdosh (14 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			What specifically has she done that gives you the impression that she has no negotiation skills?  And has become a Prima Donna??
		
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Mainly because for example all the people she tried to speak to in europe told her to go away and not to poke her nose into the situation as none of them have any intention of negotiating with her. I am sure that is not what she told her electorate in Scotland however. She thinks she has a mandate to do whatever she likes and has become carried away, remember europe warned her she was wasting her time going there but she thought they would give in. She always wants her cake and to eat it.
If we in England give you the freedom to create your own laws what gives scotland the right to interfer in laws that only effect England because whatever you think that is the situation we are in and she uses that for political point scoring and to show everybody she is using her disproportionate power.


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## Shutterbug (14 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Mainly because for example all the people she tried to speak to in europe told her to go away and not to poke her nose into the situation as none of them have any intention of negotiating with her. I am sure that is not what she told her electorate in Scotland however. She thinks she has a mandate to do whatever she likes and has become carried away, remember europe warned her she was wasting her time going there but she thought they would give in. She always wants her cake and to eat it.
If we in England give you the freedom to create your own laws what gives scotland the right to interfer in laws that only effect England because whatever you think that is the situation we are in and she uses that for political point scoring and to show everybody she is using her disproportionate power.
		
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But they didn't. I have no idea where you get that from. She was there for talks and she talked. She has a mandate to keep Scotland in the EU. And it's nowt to do with how she reported it, it's what the EU member states and other governing bodies responded with rather publicly. 

Westminster hasn't given Scotland the right to make all her own laws. I'll let you know when they do. She voted on one bloody thing, a repeal on hunting and she did so because the people who voted her in demanded she did. Seriously take the blinkers off mate. And read a news article now and again.

And wether you like it or not the SNP has as much right to vote on matters of public interest in this country as any other party. They were democratically voted in so I suggest you deal with it

Oh and by the way how does it feel to have a group of people not vote in by England get to say what happens In England?? Yeah....didn't bother a jot when it was England making all the decisions for Scotland - welcome to our world. How's the view?


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## Shutterbug (14 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Her demands and bullish approach.  Perhaps it's how the media reports her,  and if that's the problem then there are other routes by which she can have the world understand her.

Alec.
		
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The world seems to understand her perfectly well and she is a very well respected politician like it or not. My brother lives in England as do many of my friends and they do tell me that the English newspapers portray her I a as slightly different light though. I'm not in England so can't say


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## popsdosh (14 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			But they didn't. I have no idea where you get that from. She was there for talks and she talked. She has a mandate to keep Scotland in the EU. And it's nowt to do with how she reported it, it's what the EU member states and other governing bodies responded with rather publicly. 

Westminster hasn't given Scotland the right to make all her own laws. I'll let you know when they do. She voted on one bloody thing, a repeal on hunting and she did so because the people who voted her in demanded she did. Seriously take the blinkers off mate. And read a news article now and again.

And wether you like it or not the SNP has as much right to vote on matters of public interest in this country as any other party. They were democratically voted in so I suggest you deal with it

Oh and by the way how does it feel to have a group of people not vote in by England get to say what happens In England?? Yeah....didn't bother a jot when it was England making all the decisions for Scotland - welcome to our world. How's the view?
		
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When you say country which one you talking about England? or are you lumping us all together when it suits you to do so.
If its England you are indeed doing what you say you dont.
Im glad you have just clarified the sense of entitlement those in power in scotland seem to exhibited and the pathetic chip on the shoulder of the whingers north of the border like I say be very careful of where some of your politicians are trying to lead you as you may not like the outcome.
One day you may realise you are indeed being conned just to achieve the SNP s holy grail. It will be to late then.


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## Buddy'sMum (14 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Mainly because for example all the people she tried to speak to in europe told her to go away and not to poke her nose into the situation as none of them have any intention of negotiating with her. I am sure that is not what she told her electorate in Scotland however. She thinks she has a mandate to do whatever she likes and has become carried away, remember europe warned her she was wasting her time going there but she thought they would give in.
		
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Really? Pretty sure she met with Guy Verhofstadt (one of the Brexit negotiators), Jean Claude Juncker and Martin Schulz. 
And MSPs voted overwhelmingly in support of her commencing negotiations with the EU (92 to 0, I think). So she didn't think she had a mandate, she actually did have a mandate!


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## Shutterbug (15 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			When you say country which one you talking about England? or are you lumping us all together when it suits you to do so.
If its England you are indeed doing what you say you dont.
Im glad you have just clarified the sense of entitlement those in power in scotland seem to exhibited and the pathetic chip on the shoulder of the whingers north of the border like I say be very careful of where some of your politicians are trying to lead you as you may not like the outcome.
		
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In case you missed it there was this thing called a referendum and we are still part of the U.K. So we get to vote and we get a say. You know , Better Together, until it suits English politicians who suddenly decided that we were not really in it together and the prospect of having anyone from Scotland have the remotest say I the country they so desperately wanted us to remain part of was just too much for them. But like the English people who think Scotland should just sit down and shut up. It's not me with the chip Hun. And it's not a sense of entitlement, it's a democratically given right.


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## popsdosh (15 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Really? Pretty sure she met with Guy Verhofstadt (one of the Brexit negotiators), Jean Claude Juncker and Martin Schulz. 
And MSPs voted overwhelmingly in support of her commencing negotiations with the EU (92 to 0, I think). So she didn't think she had a mandate, she actually did have a mandate!
		
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JCJ and MS( I heard both state very clearly on the radio) both told her they could not discuss membership ,there is a very big difference between meeting somebody and actually negotiating. By the way 92 meps voted out of 751 in total hardly a huge open arms welcome and not enough to actually count within the parliament where abstaining is the usual way of saying no.


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## Shutterbug (15 July 2016)

MSP's Members of Scottish Parliament. Of which there are 92, voted 100% on the talks and provided the mandate for those talks


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## Buddy'sMum (15 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			By the way 92 meps voted out of 751 in total hardly a huge open arms welcome and not enough to actually count within the parliament where abstaining is the usual way of saying no.
		
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Eh? What are you talking about?


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## Judgemental (15 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			Scotland should just sit down and shut up.
		
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Very good point.


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## popsdosh (15 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			MSP's Members of Scottish Parliament. Of which there are 92, voted 100% on the talks and provided the mandate for those talks
		
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Sorry my mistake. However I am sure you are well aware that national assemblies with such large majorities can be very unpredictable beast but hey you guys will have to live with it .
Still dont quite understand why the great desire to become part of europe when they will be trying to take away the freedoms bestowed on your country by devolution. Luckily I think europe will actually be forced to change and we will all stay in at the end of the day.


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## Buddy'sMum (15 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Sorry my mistake. However I am sure you are well aware that national assemblies with such large majorities can be very unpredictable beast but hey you guys will have to live with it .
		
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Well isn't England going to be in that very position every single time the SNP MPs are excluded from from voting in Westminster?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (15 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			Very good point.
		
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Pops it's ridiculously ill informed head above the parapet, writes a moronic post, looks about with a ridiculous self satisfied smirk. Yeah sit back down and face the corner as stupid trolls should.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (15 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Sorry my mistake. However I am sure you are well aware that national assemblies with such large majorities can be very unpredictable beast but hey you guys will have to live with it .
Still dont quite understand why the great desire to become part of europe when they will be trying to take away the freedoms bestowed on your country by devolution. Luckily I think europe will actually be forced to change and we will all stay in at the end of the day.
		
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Have we not been a part of Europe through being part of the U.K. Since devolution?? Or am I missing something? Some new ruling that will take place should we join independent of England and Wales and Northern Ireland??? Haven't noticed theses losses of freedoms during these last years. Could you please quote this legislation?? I'd be rather interested


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## dibbin (15 July 2016)

Black Beastie said:



			Have we not been a part of Europe through being part of the U.K. Since devolution?? Or am I missing something? Some new ruling that will take place should we join independent of England and Wales and Northern Ireland??? Haven't noticed theses losses of freedoms during these last years. Could you please quote this legislation?? I'd be rather interested 

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Black Beastie ... you're not actually asking them to back up their rants with FACTS, are you? Perish the thought


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## Alec Swan (15 July 2016)

The UK is a part of Europe and that makes us Europeans,  and short of widening the English Chanel by 500 miles,  nothing will ever change that.  The EU as an entity has grown and beyond the relatively small group of nations which decided to group together to enable unfettered trade and movement and with its expansion,  it's become a massive,  unwieldy and uncomfortable body.  The EU has also become a luxury which we don't need and we can no longer afford.

I see and hope for a positive future.  I truly believe that if the UK is as important to Europe as we're told,  then in the future we can and will have a positive effect upon the EU.  Perverse though it may sound,  rather than the nonsense which is tripped out about us changing the system from within,  which simply won't happen,  we will,  when released from the existing fetters,  have a positive and reasoning influence.  If that means that other nations view our progress and take a similar path,  and if the EU oppression is neutered,  then that will be all to the good.

We will never be anything but Europeans.

Alec.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (15 July 2016)

dibbin said:



			Black Beastie ... you're not actually asking them to back up their rants with FACTS, are you? Perish the thought 

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Oh?? Was the above Drivel then??? Was it more scaremongering? My bad for expecting truth then really from people obviously just reading the daily fail. 

Alec that's an interesting statement.


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## Judgemental (15 July 2016)

The Prime Minster has been very clear with Mrs Sturgeon according to the BBC News, when they met for only 45 minutes at Bute House, this morning. The picture shows Mrs May and Mrs Sturgeon flanked by two Saltire flags.

If Mrs Sturgeon had an ounce of courtesy and good manners, she would have substituted one with the Union flag. Surprised she did not have the EU flag. 

"From the BBC Prime Minister Theresa May has held talks with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon in Edinburgh on the future of the EU and the union.

Mrs May left the first minister's official residence, Bute House, after about 45 minutes, following a meeting she described as "positive".

She said the Scottish government should be "fully engaged" in Brexit talks.

Ms Sturgeon believes Scottish interests have been put "at risk" by the UK's vote to leave the EU." (Posters comment what absolute rubbish).

"The Scottish government is seeking a separate deal on relations with the EU after the Brexit vote". (Posters comment well that's a non-starter)

"Speaking after the meeting, the prime minister said: "I'm willing to listen to options and I've been very clear with the first minister today that I want the Scottish government to be fully engaged in our discussion".

Poster's comment: why should the Queen have to 'speak' to Mrs Sturgeon as only the Queen does and now The Prime Minister has had to 'speak' to her.

Time Mrs Sturgeon grew up, fell into line and acted in the best interests of the whole nation and took up a patriotic unionist position. Who does she think she is, Queen of Scots!


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## Shutterbug (15 July 2016)

Oh dear you are seriously going to get wound up about a flag?? Are you really old or something? Thats the kind of thing my grandparents would whine about. Newsflash, we have moved on and no longer get our knickers in a twist about trivial crap. She's in the Scottish Parliament for goodness sake we aren't going to chuck up a flag just to passify the likes of you.

Of course the PM has to speak to her she's the FM of Scotland. Wow you have a real bee in your bonnet don't you? She's not the Queen of Scotland no, you're right there, she is the democratically selected leader of the Scottish Government representing the country of Scotland and the 62% of voters who voted remain. It's her job to represent their opinions and hats what she's doing because that's what we want her to do. Doing anything else would betray the votes of all those who voted her in


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## Judgemental (15 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			Oh dear you are seriously going to get wound up about a flag?? Are you really old
		
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No simply good manners and yes.


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## ester (15 July 2016)

Err, so I'm sure it would work really well if the decided that NS and TM didn't have to speak to each other in their respective roles, that would work really well. 

and flags, I find it a constant source of confusion why they are such an issue for people. Same as with NI when issues are listed as 'flags, parades and the past' in that order!


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## Judgemental (15 July 2016)

ester said:



			Err, so I'm sure it would work really well if the decided that NS and TM didn't have to speak to each other in their respective roles, that would work really well. 

and flags, I find it a constant source of confusion why they are such an issue for people. Same as with NI when issues are listed as 'flags, parades and the past' in that order!
		
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Well if NS was not 'kicking off' TM would not have to have so high on her agenda.

So far as flags are concerned, in the US everybody swears allegiance to The Flag, we are rather different and swear allegiance to the crown.

Swearing allegiance to a flag is a republican 'thing' and I cannot help wondering if that is what NS is really after, abolishing the crown in Scotland.

Having some misguided notions about grouse moors and pipe smoking tweedy politicians from London. Whatever the criticism of such people, they always had impeccable manners.


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## ester (15 July 2016)

Did you know them all?
I am sure, as a woman, TM is fine at multitasking and having many things on her agenda without them affecting others adversely.

It sounds like remembering to get the awful vase that aunty ethel bought you one year out when she visits..., even though aunty ethel can't remember buying the bloody thing. Essentially pointless and I would hope they both have much more important things to be spending their time and energy on than bits of cloth, flagged, tweeded or otherwise.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (15 July 2016)

But ester we have to realised that there are no actual facts nor pertinent information required on this thread, its sole purpose is to allow the OP to air their ignorance and serious dislike of someone. The fact that genuine freely available information has been provided on this thread to disprove most of these third rate newspaper led opinions has essentially been pointedly ignored just so as tripe can be posted on irrelevant matters.


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## ester (15 July 2016)

Doh, silly me, no facts or logic permitted, right...


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## fburton (15 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			... we are rather different and swear allegiance to the crown.
		
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"We" is not everybody, thank goodness (as much as I respect the Queen).


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## Judgemental (15 July 2016)

fburton said:



			"We" is not everybody, thank goodness (as much as I respect the Queen).
		
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Judges, Police Officers, Military personnel, Clergy. Members of Parliament to name but a few, thank god.

It never ceases to amaze me how folk live on these beautiful islands and yet, they all want to sabotage and destabilise the status quo, for their own selfish vane glorious egotistical satisfaction.


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## Judgemental (15 July 2016)

ester said:



			Err, so I'm sure it would work really well if the decided that NS and TM didn't have to speak to each other in their respective roles, that would work really well. 

and flags, I find it a constant source of confusion why they are such an issue for people. Same as with NI when issues are listed as 'flags, parades and the past' in that order!
		
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Ester please don't say I ignore your posts, 2nd in as many hours.

The Daily Express headline of a few moments ago:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...land-Nicola-Sturgeon-COBRA-new-Prime-Minister

"Where WAS Theresa? May ducks urgent COBRA terror meeting for chat with 'deluded' Sturgeon"

Does that imply NS has a mental problem and TM felt she should give NS some help and political therapy.  

Young people need to be careful about zealots, leading them to some great Utopian political paradise.

Let's face it Hitler was as mad as a box of frogs, yet managed to carry off his political ideologies for years.


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## Shutterbug (15 July 2016)

Haha you are quoting the Express You must be desperate lol

NS is not responsible for TM's schedule or choice of meetings. Perhaps TM has trouble prioritising which for a Tory wouldn't be a shock


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## Judgemental (15 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			Haha you are quoting the Express You must be desperate lol

NS is not responsible for TM's schedule or choice of meetings. Perhaps TM has trouble prioritising which for a Tory wouldn't be a shock
		
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NS has whipped up a frenzy of latter day misguided belief in the minds of the Scots, that they can achieve independence and remain in the EU.

For one thing, Scotland does not have the money to pay the membership for the latter.

Her whole raison d'etre in sheer irresponsible reckless madness.


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## Shutterbug (15 July 2016)

I live here and I can assure you there is no frenzy. Independence is not at the forefront of these discussions despite what your silly little newspapers may tell you. There is nothing to suggest that Scotland cannot have membership of the EU as an independent country. 

Scotland will decide her own future. I find it hilarious that the same people demanding we leave the EU, perfectly prepared to walk into the great unknown without any definite plan of how we proceed. With no idea on how it will affect jobs, our position in Europe, our finances or anything else, are so hellbent on Scotland never gaining independence under the same. Absolutely bloody hilarious and terribly hypocritical


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## Fidgety (15 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			I find it hilarious that the same people demanding we leave the EU, perfectly prepared to walk into the great U loan without any definite plan of how we proceed. With no idea on how it will affect jobs, our position in Europe or anything else, are so hellbent on Scotland never gaining independence under the same. Absolutely bloody hilarious and terribly hypocritical
		
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In fairness, the vote on Scottish independence wasn't opened up to the UK.  The result for staying might well have been  different if it had been.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			I live here and I can assure you there is no frenzy. Independence is not at the forefront of these discussions despite what your silly little newspapers may tell you. There is nothing to suggest that Scotland cannot have membership of the EU as an independent country. 

Scotland will decide her own future. I find it hilarious that the same people demanding we leave the EU, perfectly prepared to walk into the great unknown without any definite plan of how we proceed. With no idea on how it will affect jobs, our position in Europe, our finances or anything else, are so hellbent on Scotland never gaining independence under the same. Absolutely bloody hilarious and terribly hypocritical
		
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And if the EU vote had swopped a few percents and Scotland's vote forced England to stay in the EU .I don't suppose it would have been OK for the English who voted out to rail against the unfairness of the system .
You know your own people kept you in the union the English did not impose it on Scotland .


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## Shutterbug (15 July 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			And if the EU vote had swopped a few percents and Scotland's vote forced England to stay in the EU .I don't suppose it would have been OK for the English who voted out to rail against the unfairness of the system .
You know your own people kept you in the union the English did not impose it on Scotland .
		
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Of course it would have been fair - Farrage had already taken steps to move forward to another referendum should the Uk have voted to stay.  Just because you lose the vote doesn't mean you lose the right to continue to fight the cause. This is why the party who runs the country has an opposition. Because the other side still gets to argue their case. 

Yes I am perfectly aware of the results of the referendum thank you but you have to understand that one of the reasons many people in Scotland voted No was because one of the  the No arguments was "the only way to remain in the EU is to vote No"  They were lied to, and the game has changed


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## Shutterbug (15 July 2016)

Fidgety said:



			In fairness, the vote on Scottish independence wasn't opened up to the UK.  The result for staying might well have been  different if it had been.
		
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It may well have been, but it's an argument I only really hear from English folk who have voted to leave Europe but don't think Scotland should be Independant.


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## Buddy'sMum (15 July 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			You know your own people kept you in the union the English did not impose it on Scotland .
		
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But during the run up to the Indy ref wasn't Scotland told that remaining part of the UK was the only way she could stay in the EU? That was a major concern for many Scots and without a doubt had a considerable impact on voting.


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## popsdosh (15 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			It may well have been, but it's an argument I only really hear from English folk who have voted to leave Europe but don't think Scotland should be Independant.
		
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You are very mistaken many in England would love to watch you trying to paddle your own canoe. It would be great entertainment no more free university funded by England ,etc etc perks you have in scotland that are not available south of the border . If scotland had to go it alone it will be running a large defecit financially. See if NS would be so popular then.
Her only other hope would be increasing taxes and the big buisness that at the moment contributes to what you say comes to westminster will move south of the border because taxes will be lower. We would loved to have had a vote in your referendum and helped you become independant.
Whatever you may think of her NS does not come across well in England as she is always whinging on the media about something or other and im afraid we get fed up with it after a while.


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## MotherOfChickens (15 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			on the media about something or other and im afraid we get fed up with it after a while.
		
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oh the irony.


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## popsdosh (15 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			But during the run up to the Indy ref wasn't Scotland told that remaining part of the UK was the only way she could stay in the EU? That was a major concern for many Scots and without a doubt had a considerable impact on voting.
		
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It was true ! How long do you think it will take you to rejoin if you are independant . My best guess would be 6-8 years. The EU dont want you as they already have several countries with out of proportion fiscal deficits and the rules of membership will not allow you to join under these circumstances and you will have to adopt the euro but thats ok as by the time you are independent your scottish pounds will be worth a euro.
However seriously I really feel in my heart all this is wasted energy as not much is going to change we will still be all part of the EU in 10 yrs time ,however a much changed one because if they dont change the UK wont be the only ones leaving.


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## Fidgety (15 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			It may well have been, but it's an argument I only really hear from English folk who have voted to leave Europe but don't think Scotland should be Independant.
		
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You now know of one who voted leave who would be abundantly happy if the Scots had chosen to be independent.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (15 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			You are very mistaken many in England would love to watch you trying to paddle your own canoe. It would be great entertainment no more free university funded by England ,etc etc perks you have in scotland that are not available south of the border . If scotland had to go it alone it will be running a large defecit financially. See if NS would be so popular then.
Her only other hope would be increasing taxes and the big buisness that at the moment contributes to what you say comes to westminster will move south of the border because taxes will be lower. We would loved to have had a vote in your referendum and helped you become independant.
Whatever you may think of her NS does not come across well in England as she is always whinging on the media about something or other and im afraid we get fed up with it after a while.
		
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So if many in England wanted to watch us run our own country why were the politicians offering us many things (which they subsequently backed out of surprise surprise) to stay in the union? Id England had really wanted rid of Scotland then why did they fight and threaten and promise various different positions to keep us in??

I honestly don't understand where you get your information popdosh? Are you another third rate toilet paper newspaper reader as well??? Not knowing the difference between the different politicians is one thing but seriously you didn't watch the news before the Scottish referendum and all the promises and threats that were made? Surely not.


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## Shutterbug (15 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			You are very mistaken many in England would love to watch you trying to paddle your own canoe. It would be great entertainment no more free university funded by England ,etc etc perks you have in scotland that are not available south of the border . If scotland had to go it alone it will be running a large defecit financially. See if NS would be so popular then.
Her only other hope would be increasing taxes and the big buisness that at the moment contributes to what you say comes to westminster will move south of the border because taxes will be lower. We would loved to have had a vote in your referendum and helped you become independant.
Whatever you may think of her NS does not come across well in England as she is always whinging on the media about something or other and im afraid we get fed up with it after a while.
		
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I have already provided you with more than enough proof that England does not subsidise Scotland. I can't make you read it that's up
to you to do that for yourself. But you seem to have glossed right over it and chosen to completely ignore it.  All links are independent sources by the way so knock yourself out with some facts there before you repeat your nonsense.

Think about it, if Scotland is such a drain on England why are they so determined to hang on to us? Perhaps you need is a little more that you realise.

Unless you are prepared to actually digest the information provided in a discussion you may as well not be part of said discussion if you're just going to go round in circles repeating yourself despite people providing you with evidence to the contrary.


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## Shutterbug (15 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			You are very mistaken many in England would love to watch you trying to paddle your own canoe.
		
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I never said they wouldn't. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be very much mistake about however I suspect you a be mistaking my saying that an argument I only hear from English people with me saying all English people wanted Scotland to remain in the UK. Which is not what I said at all

You are very much mistaken


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			I have already provided you with more than enough proof that England does not subsidise Scotland. I can't make you read it that's up
to you to do that for yourself. But you seem to have glossed right over it and chosen to completely ignore it.  All links are independent sources by the way so knock yourself out with some facts there before you repeat your nonsense.

Think about it, if Scotland is such a drain on England why are they so determined to hang on to us? Perhaps you need is a little more that you realise.

Unless you are prepared to actually digest the information provided in a discussion you may as well not be part of said discussion if you're just going to go round in circles repeating yourself despite people providing you with evidence to the contrary.
		
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A great many English people don't care either way that's the camp I am in .
I am happy and confident being English and european


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## Shutterbug (15 July 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			A great many English people don't care either way that's the camp I am in .
I am happy and confident being English and european
		
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I have a great many friends in England who feel the same.  Happy to be English and European and don't care if Scotland are independent or not. And that's a great place to be. 

It's the Daily Fail and Mirror readers who just repeat sound bites they read or hear with absolutely no evidence to back it up and who will happily ignore any evidence presented to them. They are the same kinds of people who
voted to leave EU whilst believing the leave campaign promises. Immigration won't stop And nor are we going to get a massive injection of money into our NHS.  If we have any hope of having a good exit agreement with the EU, with a few countries stating they will block a generous exit agreement with us,  we will have to keep our borders open, we will have to have an agreement with the EU and we will still have to part either money to retain that agreement. Only we won't have a say in how the EU is run anymore


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## millikins (15 July 2016)

An equally important reason for the first independence vote was that Alex Salmond was unable to come up with an answer to how an independant Scotland would finance itself. His figures involved the revenue from North Sea oil, which has now crashed and keeping sterling. I am English, I have absolutely no desire to keep Scotland in a union it no longer wishes to be part of, I just wish the SNP would shut up whingeing and hold a 2nd referendum.


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## Shutterbug (15 July 2016)

millikins said:



			I just wish the SNP would shut up whingeing and hold a 2nd referendum.
		
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To be fair, over the last nearly 2 years since the referendum, the only time the SNP have ever discussed a second referendum is when someone from the Tories or Labour Party has brought it up, which they do frequently to the point of annoyance. The answer is always the same - it's not up to the SNP to decide when is the right time for a second referendum it's up to the people of Scotland. We voted them in on the basis that material change would trigger discussions of a second referendum and our 92 MP's wiped the floor with every other political party in Scotland on that basis.  Sturgeon has always said there would need to be a change or step that would trigger a referendum, she has now said its on the table and being considered. They are not the ones who have banged on about it for the last 2 years.  And her response to any questions relating to it has never changed


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## Shutterbug (15 July 2016)

Oh and meant to add, the oil only accounts for a fraction of Scotland's income

Even without oil, Scotlands GDP per head is less than 1%  lower than the rest of the UKs

Oil would just be an extra bonus


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## Alec Swan (15 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. - it's not up to the SNP to decide when is the right time for a second referendum it's up to the people of Scotland. &#8230;&#8230;..
		
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Would that be along the same idealogical lines whereby the UK will leave the EU because that's the will of the people?  I feel compelled to remind you that Referendums are not binding and any government or parliament is bound to take the decision which it feels in in the nation's interest,  even if the nation doesn't agree.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (15 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			Oh and meant to add, the oil only accounts for a fraction of Scotland's income

&#8230;&#8230;..
		
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How is Scotland's income earned then?  How does Scotland generate wealth and at a level sufficient to sustain self sufficiency?

Alec.


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## Shutterbug (15 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Would that be along the same idealogical lines whereby the UK will leave the EU because that's the will of the people?  I feel compelled to remind you that Referendums are not binding and any government or parliament is bound to take the decision which it feels in in the nation's interest,  even if the nation doesn't agree.

Alec.
		
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Yeah I'm very well aware of that. Not sure why you are compelled to remind me though?


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## Alec Swan (15 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			Yeah I'm very well aware of that. Not sure why you are compelled to remind me though?
		
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Because you seem to think that the SNP will follow the will of the Scots and hold another Indy vote when it's demanded,  and I pointed out to you that no Government of Parliament are compelled to follow any Referendums,  even should Leave be the choice.

Alec.


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## Shutterbug (15 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Because you seem to think that the SNP will follow the will of the Scots and hold another Indy vote when it's demanded,  and I pointed out to you that no Government of Parliament are compelled to follow any Referendums,  even should Leave be the choice.

Alec.
		
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Not entirely correct Alex, I refer you to the Alternative Vote referendum in 2011 which was legally binding.

That aside, the point I'm making is that the SNP have always declared there would not be another referendum until there was a requirement for it from the people of Scotland.  So yes they will hold another referendum at the will of the Scottish people. Wether that result would be respected or followed through on by a government is irrelevant to the discussion at this point.


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## Buddy'sMum (15 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			It would be great entertainment no more free university *funded by England* ,etc etc perks you have in scotland that are not available south of the border .
		
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So the Northern Irish, Welsh and Scots don't pay tax? 



popsdosh said:



			Her only other hope would be increasing taxes and the big buisness that at the moment contributes to what you say comes to westminster will move south of the border because taxes will be lower.
		
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Genius! Yes, the North Sea oil and gas industry will relocate to...the Thames? And of course businesses are going to flock to England for the lower taxes  and, of course, for access to the European single market...oh wait...


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## Judgemental (16 July 2016)

I hope Mrs Sturgeon looks carefully at the failed coup in Turkey and reflects that Turkey wants to become a member of the EU.

Does she really want Scotland to be members of a club with such potentially unstable members.

If she is wise, she and her colleagues will 'hunker down' and make the best of what they have.

We might not be ideal in terms of her ideological political aspirations but 'better the devil you know than the devil you don't'.

Mrs Sturgeon needs to become far more worldly for her own good and the people of Scotland. She is still very immature so far as the international world stage is concerned.

Plainly an EU military force will have been advanced in the minds of the remaining 27 EU leaders as a result of the situation in Turkey, in order to deal with that type of scenario. Also it gives the 27 an excuse to form an EU military force made up of a collective of army, navy and air-force personnel who are nationals from each country.

If Scotland cedes to the EU, they will have to be party of that EU military force and supply Scots personnel.

It simply will not work.

I hope Mrs Sturgeon would not think any Scot's regiments could take an operational role in any EU adventure.


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## popsdosh (16 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			So the Northern Irish, Welsh and Scots don't pay tax? 



Genius! Yes, the North Sea oil and gas industry will relocate to...the Thames? And of course businesses are going to flock to England for the lower taxes  and, of course, for access to the European single market...oh wait...

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This may make interesting reading and is the most recent figures.
www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn06625.pdf

The things I find most interesting are the figures the Scottish government leave out before feeding it to the population as it puts a completely different perspective on things apparently you are not going to need any defence etc.. So with independence tell me how they will balance the books keeping the population and businesses happy. They will have to become magicians


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## Alec Swan (16 July 2016)

Considering the current chaos within the EU,  and specifically the worrying problems in Turkey,  which though not members will impact heavily upon the rest of Europe,  any plans for a separate link between the EU and Scotland,  is nothing short of madness.  Perhaps when 'things' settle down?  Will they,  settle down that is?  I would be most surprised.

Though Scotland's problems with Westminster are serious and entrenched,  we are all a part of the UK and despite the current level of apparent immaturity on the part of Mrs Sturgeon,  the bond is still in place and it will remain,  I pray.

Alec.


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## popsdosh (16 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			I hope Mrs Sturgeon looks carefully at the failed coup in Turkey and reflects that Turkey wants to become a member of the EU.

Does she really want Scotland to be members of a club with such potentially unstable members.

If she is wise, she and her colleagues will 'hunker down' and make the best of what they have.

We might not be ideal in terms of her ideological political aspirations but 'better the devil you know than the devil you don't'.

Mrs Sturgeon needs to become far more worldly for her own good and the people of Scotland. She is still very immature so far as the international world stage is concerned.

Plainly an EU military force will have been advanced in the minds of the remaining 27 EU leaders as a result of the situation in Turkey, in order to deal with that type of scenario. Also it gives the 27 an excuse to form an EU military force made up of a collective of army, navy and air-force personnel who are nationals from each country.
Maybe its a service England could lease them or a PFI deal.

If Scotland cedes to the EU, they will have to be party of that EU military force and supply Scots personnel.

It simply will not work.

I hope Mrs Sturgeon would not think any Scot's regiments could take an operational role in any EU adventure.
		
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Well as I have found out the Scottish government have no budget for defence or at least dont account for it when making up the books so maybe she thinks the EU will supply it for free in exchange for Scotland gracing them with their membership.


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## Judgemental (16 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Well as I have found out the Scottish government have no budget for defence or at least dont account for it when making up the books so maybe she thinks the EU will supply it for free in exchange for Scotland gracing them with their membership.
		
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No money for defense, can't pay the membership fee and not enough money for the NHS. Mrs Sturgeon and SNP are hopelessly ridiculous and should stop wasting everybody's time.


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## Alec Swan (16 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			No money for defense, can't pay the membership fee and not enough money for the NHS. Mrs Sturgeon and SNP are hopelessly ridiculous and should stop wasting everybody's time.
		
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That's all very well and you may well be right,  but it doesn't solve the sense of unhappiness felt by a great many Scots towards being a part of the UK,  does it?

Alec.


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## Shutterbug (16 July 2016)

You lot will only believe what you want to believe that much is obvious.

Scotland pays 3.5 billion to the UK defence budget and gets 1.4 billion less than rUK spent within Scotland on defence areas. 

We manage to run our NHS way better than our English counterparts from the budget we get (not subsidised by England as previously stated and proven in links provided and which none of you are eager to discuss or read)

I know who is wasting my time and it ain't Nicola Sturgeon. Are any of you even reading what I write or are you just blanking it and going back to the DM headlines cause it's what you want to hear?

I give up, you clearly have your minds made up and no amount of evidence to the contrary will convince you otherwise.

Incidentally Turkey are years away from being in the EU. Cyprus and thei human rights issue aside they have failed to get anywhere near passing the 35 required areas to join and too many countries are against them joining. But I'm sure you're not interested in facts,  just speculative and dramatic headlines from third rate newspapers. Knock yourselves out I'm clearly wasting my time trying to talk any sense to any of you


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## popsdosh (16 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			You lot will only believe what you want to believe that much is obvious.

Scotland pays 3.5 billion to the UK defence budget and gets 1.4 billion less than rUK spent within Scotland on defence areas. 

We manage to run our NHS way better than our English counterparts from the budget we get (not subsidised by England as previously stated and proven in links provided and which none of you are eager to discuss or read)

I know who is wasting my time and it ain't Nicola Sturgeon. Are any of you even reading what I write or are you just blanking it and going back to the DM headlines cause it's what you want to hear?

I give up, you clearly have your minds made up and no amount of evidence to the contrary will convince you otherwise.

Incidentally Turkey are years away from being in the EU. Cyprus and thei human rights issue aside they have failed to get anywhere near passing the 35 required areas to join and too many countries are against them joining. But I'm sure you're not interested in facts,  just speculative and dramatic headlines from third rate newspapers. Knock yourselves out I'm clearly wasting my time trying to talk any sense to any of you
		
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I have just given you an official government document with up to date figures. So whos wrong here! And approved by SNP


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## Alec Swan (16 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			How is Scotland's income earned then?  How does Scotland generate wealth and at a level sufficient to sustain self sufficiency?

Alec.
		
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Shutterbug said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Oil would just be an extra bonus
		
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Shutterbug said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Scotland pays 3.5 billion to the UK defence budget and gets 1.4 billion less than rUK spent within Scotland on defence areas. 

We manage to run our NHS way better than our English counterparts from the budget we get (not subsidised by England as previously stated and proven in links provided and which none of you are eager to discuss or read) &#8230;&#8230;..

I give up, you clearly have your minds made up and no amount of evidence to the contrary will convince you otherwise.

&#8230;&#8230;.. Knock yourselves out I'm clearly wasting my time trying to talk any sense to any of you
		
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Can you support your argument and explain just how Scotland generates the wealth of which you speak?  Can you explain which are the core industries which provide the £3.5 billion  to support the UK Military?  Can you explain where the money comes from and how it is earned which supports your health sector?

In short;  Can you list for me the industries upon which Scotland is so reliant and from where your claimed for figures and facts are derived?  The ship building industry and the coal industry have been abandoned,  and shamefully in my view,  the fishing industry rights were GIFTED away to the EU,  and the list goes on and on. &#8230;&#8230;..

There are wonderful and far thinking Unis,  but they don't in themselves generate much in the way of wealth,  there is a whisky producing industry which I agree prospers,  agriculture is in a sound state with beef and lamb production being on a sound basis for now,  but with the well timed 'scares' the market over any 10 year period is mercurial,  &#8230;&#8230;.. 

&#8230;&#8230;.. and then there's Oil which you seem to feel is a bonus!  Have you not noticed that crude oil prices have been in free-fall and that the risk and worry in and around Aberdeen over job security is in the minds of many?  Has it occurred to you that the Scottish oil industry and the infrastructure which supports it is in the main owned by the oil companies and that they've invested millions to explore for a product which on the world market,  is of low grade?  To suggest that oil will ever support Scotland and that they'll become another Dubai,  really doesn't make for any sense.

I'm sorry that others seem to ignore you and your claims,  and I can only speak for myself,  but your argument has little to support it in clear,  evident and obvious fact,  from what I can see.  

Alec.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (16 July 2016)

Have any of you actually opened any of the links provided to you?? They all state perfectly the answers to the questions you are posing? 

I agree with shutterbug, it is clear that you want to keep your small minded political opinions and you clearly don't want to be educated and continue to look and act  like political infants. 

Continue your sturgeon bashing, makes no odds to us that you wish to believe newspapers bias journalism rather than facts handed to you on a plate. At least me have a leader who has a plan, not s bunch of silver spooned idiots run round trying to keep their trust fund.


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## millikins (16 July 2016)

Well I opened the link from popsdosh, the official Govt figures........


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## Alec Swan (16 July 2016)

Black Beastie said:



			Have any of you actually opened any of the links provided to you?? They all state perfectly the answers to the questions you are posing? 

&#8230;&#8230;.. not s bunch of silver spooned idiots run round trying to keep their trust fund.
		
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Why we're so reliant upon the spin which it always seems is attached to 'statistics' I'm not sure,  but we do.  The answer,  it seems to me,  is that if Scotland could be self supporting and sufficient (with EU assistance of course!),  and that if Scotland is a net contributor to the UK economy,  then why hasn't Brussels welcomed Mrs Sturgeon with open arms?  Perhaps the answer is that Brussels also raises an eyebrow to the claims.

With the certainty that you and the authors of the reports which you quote seem to have,  why is it that the SNP aren't now marching on for a further Independence referendum?  Clearly,  the remainder of the UK are a drain upon Scotland's wealth generating abilities so with the blessing of possibly only one,  spread your wings and fly! 

Alec.


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## Countryman (16 July 2016)

Black Beastie said:



			Continue your sturgeon bashing, makes no odds to us that you wish to believe newspapers bias journalism rather than facts handed to you on a plate. At least me have a leader who has a plan, not s bunch of silver spooned idiots run round trying to keep their trust fund.
		
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Have you heard of Theresa May? Certainly not a 'silver spooned idiot trying to keep her trust fund'...!


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## popsdosh (16 July 2016)

Black Beastie said:



			Have any of you actually opened any of the links provided to you?? They all state perfectly the answers to the questions you are posing? 

I agree with shutterbug, it is clear that you want to keep your small minded political opinions and you clearly don't want to be educated and continue to look and act  like political infants. 

Continue your sturgeon bashing, makes no odds to us that you wish to believe newspapers bias journalism rather than facts handed to you on a plate. At least me have a leader who has a plan, not s bunch of silver spooned idiots run round trying to keep their trust fund.
		
Click to expand...

All my answers for me are in my link which is official figures signed off by the scottish government they lead you to question what you are being fed in Scotland to keep you all running after her! As much as she would hate to hear it all the time the SNP are doing well in scotland we will always have a conservative majority south of the border so long may she continue. Of course that may be why the government are indeed feeding her ability to maintain her power.


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## Buddy'sMum (16 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Well as I have found out the Scottish government have no budget for defence or at least dont account for it when making up the books so maybe she thinks the EU will supply it for free in exchange for Scotland gracing them with their membership.
		
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Total nonsense. May I suggest you refer to Chapter 3 for details of defence spending in recent years:
http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0049/00495386.pdf

And for Alec who seems to think whiskey production is the only industry in Scotland:
http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0049/00493256.xls


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## Buddy'sMum (16 July 2016)

Countryman said:



			Have you heard of Theresa May? Certainly not a 'silver spooned idiot trying to keep her trust fund'...!
		
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Or elected by the people!


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## ROG (16 July 2016)

The party leader needs only to have the backing of the parliament team they lead

That leader has already been elected to parliament by the public

This is why Corbyn is so silly - he does not have the backing of the team - Theresa May does


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## ester (16 July 2016)

Anyone that thinks they elect the prime minister in this country is a bit daft tbh


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## Goldenstar (16 July 2016)

ester said:



			Anyone that thinks they elect the prime minister in this country is a bit daft tbh 

Click to expand...

Of course they are .
And you don't want to rushing off having general elections every five minutes it damaging to the country expensive and takes politicians eyes off the ball .
Does anybody really think that with the acts in France, Brexit and the main buffer between us and IS madness in turmoil we should have a general election .
And that forgetting the small point that the PM has no right in law to call an election( thank the lib demos for that ) .


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## Judgemental (16 July 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Of course they are .
And you don't want to rushing off having general elections every five minutes it damaging to the country expensive and takes politicians eyes off the ball .
Does anybody really think that with the acts in France, Brexit and the main buffer between us and IS madness in turmoil we should have a general election .
And that forgetting the small point that the PM has no right in law to call an election( thank the lib demos for that ) .
		
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Goldenstar, how right you are, there cannot be a general Election until 2020 becasue of The Fixed Term Parliament Act.

I suppose it can be amended to hold an election using the inbuilt statutory instrument but I am not sure. Either way. the PM cannot simply decide to have a General Election as in days of yore.

Oh the halcyon days of Anthony Eden, Mamillan, Alec Douglas-Hume, Harold Wilson, Jim Callaghan, Edward Heath, Margaret Thatcher, John Major, Gordon Brown, who simply called an election when they fancied. Yes I know I have omitted one, he that is not mentioned on the Hunting Forum.


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## millikins (16 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Total nonsense. May I suggest you refer to Chapter 3 for details of defence spending in recent years:
http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0049/00495386.pdf

And for Alec who seems to think whiskey production is the only industry in Scotland:
http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0049/00493256.xls

Click to expand...

Now I read table 3.8 as indicating that almost the full amount of defense spending in Scotland is funded by the UK govt? Or have I read it incorrectly?


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## ycbm (16 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			Oh and meant to add, the oil only accounts for a fraction of Scotland's income

Even without oil, Scotlands GDP per head is less than 1%  lower than the rest of the UKs

Oil would just be an extra bonus
		
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But it's not GDP that pays the bills, it's tax revenues. What taxes does Scotland raise compared to its spending?  And if Scotland is self sufficient why does the Barnett formula give you a higher amount per head of public spending than more deprived areas in other parts of the Union?


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## Alec Swan (16 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

And for Alec who seems to think whiskey production is the only industry in Scotland:
http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0049/00493256.xls

Click to expand...

I haven't read through the entire offering,  but did rather smile at the fact that within Agriculture is included Fishing and Forestry! 

What Fishing Industry would that be then?  It was 'Gifted' to the EU by the UK.  The Scottish Fishing Industry is dead,  finished,  gone.  Quite shameful.

Forestry Exports?  They can't really be serious.  There is no Forestry Industry where the investments will ever be re-paid by any eventual product sale.  Just about all the commercial forestry sites are no more than tax avoidance loopholes for those with money which they'd like to hang on to!  The areas in Scotland which have been set aside for the production of timber had,  what we see as 'vast' areas,  been set aside for timber production but the set up costs and the extraction costs have run in to many £Billions,  and our forestry land and though I applaud its existence,  is no more than an amenity facility.

Agriculture?  Beef and Lamb are viable exports as are the increasing value of top class breeding stock,  but without the ESA and the vital LFA payments,  they would be no longer.  There is a continuing seed-potato supply system but the area involved is only the central basin between the Southern and Northern uplands.

There's a loosely listed Manufacturing and Construction section,  and apart from the building of rigs for the oil industry,  I'm wondering what they are.  I'm more than happy to be wrong and have Scotland's manufacturing industry broken down in to the specific sectors,  and explained to me.  I'd like to know what Scotland produces and is sold abroad which brings in any sizeable revenue,  apart from whisky.

Alec.


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## Buddy'sMum (16 July 2016)

Wasn't suggesting we should have a general election, I'm not that daft   But it's a fact that the majority of unelected PMs have had a fairly dismal track record, with few managing to stay in the job very long.


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## Alec Swan (16 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum,

I'm not knocking Scotland,  anything but.  Westminster (indeed all the South) have neglected their duties and all but abandoned Scotland.  There's a growing need for re-investment which will bring purpose and drive to the economy and put realistic hope in to future generations,  rather than the flaccid existence which veils too large a part of too many Scottish communities.

Those Scots who want to be independent of England are fully entitled to 'want',  but they have to consider the way forward.  Those in the North of England are in the same boat,  with areas being abandoned to recession,  contributing nothing and being grudgingly maintained.  

Without serious input from the South,  then nothing will change,  which is the crime of neglect.

Alec.


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## Judgemental (17 July 2016)

The following today from Reuters tells me three things.

1. Sturgeon is hopelessly delusional AND SHE IS ON AN IRRESPONSIBLE AND RECKLESS EGO TRIP.

2. There is no way Scotland can afford to stay in the EU and still be part of England, Wales and N. Ireland why should the UK put up with them, it will cost the UK. Bit like going to an Hotel and not being able to pay the bill.

3. If you give somebody a enough rope, eventually they will hang themselves.


"Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said she would not rule out the possibility of Scotland remaining in the European Union as well as part of Britain, which backed Brexit in a referendum mainly due to voters in England and Wales.

"When you are in unchartered territory you have effectively a blank sheet of paper in front of you then you have an opportunity to think things that may have been previously unthinkable," Sturgeon told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show.

Asked if Scotland could stay in the EU while England and Wales exited the bloc, Sturgeon said: "I don't think that should be ruled out at this stage."

Voters in Scotland rejected independence in 2014 but 62 percent backed remaining part of the EU in a referendum on June 23 in which the majority of voters across the four countries which make up the United Kingdom backed Brexit.

Sturgeon said after the Brexit result that a second independence referendum was now a possibilty, though she has also stressed that would not happen until it was clear most Scots were in favour of breaking from the United Kingdom.

In the wake of the shock vote, Sturgeon went on a flying visit to Brussels to meet EU executives and lawmakers.

According to sources, she discussed possible models for Scotland's future in the bloc, based on the fact that several states have some parts in the EU and some outside - as in the case of EU member Denmark and its non-EU territory Greenland.

Speaking about her visit to Brussels, Sturgeon said her welcome had been much warmer than during her visits in the run-up to the independence referendum.

"What I encountered in Brussels was a warmth, an openness a great sympathy to the position that Scotland find itself in," she said on Sunday.

Sturgeon also said Prime Minister Theresa May's comments on Friday, saying Britain would not trigger formal divorce talks with the EU until a "UK approach" had been agreed, gives her a strong bargaining position.

"That put Scotland in a very, very strong position, that puts me in a strong position." (THAT IS WHAT IT IS REALLY ALL ABOUT!!!! MRS STURGEONS EGO)

(Reporting by Karin Strohecker and Costas Pitas; Editing by Angus MacSwan)

More From Reuters"


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## Alec Swan (17 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Speaking about her visit to Brussels, Sturgeon said her welcome had been much warmer than during her visits in the run-up to the independence referendum.

"What I encountered in Brussels was a warmth, an openness a great sympathy to the position that Scotland find itself in," she said on Sunday.

&#8230;&#8230;..
		
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It would be interesting to hear of the official response from Brussels,  wouldn't it?

I suspect that Mrs S is applying a degree of spin.

Alec.


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## Judgemental (17 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			It would be interesting to hear of the official response from Brussels,  wouldn't it?

I suspect that Mrs S is applying a degree of spin.

Alec.
		
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Alec that is certainly the impression given and why does she keep on about 'the warm of her reception'.

For the benefit of recent posters, let us not lose sight of the fact the reason this issue is on this forum - because Sturgeon and the SNP Welched on the Foxhunting deal and they will never be allowed to forget their duplicitous conduct.

At the end of the day she is going to be 'scuddered' herself. Bet our Scots friends did not know I understood such Glaswegian slang.

What are the people of Scotland going to say, when EU VAT is at sky high EU levels and likely to go up, to compensate because of our departure,  when their brethren over in the border are paying next to nothing in terms of VAT on fuel and heating costs for example.

I reckon Mrs May is a very clever lady and "come into my parlor said the spider to the fly" springs to mind.


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## MotherOfChickens (17 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			The following today from Reuters tells me three things.

1. Sturgeon is hopelessly delusional AND SHE IS ON AN IRRESPONSIBLE AND RECKLESS EGO TRIP.

2. There is no way Scotland can afford to stay in the EU and still be part of England, Wales and N. Ireland why should the UK put up with them, it will cost the UK. Bit like going to an Hotel and not being able to pay the bill.

3. If you give somebody a enough rope, eventually they will hang themselves.


"Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said she would not rule out the possibility of Scotland remaining in the European Union as well as part of Britain, which backed Brexit in a referendum mainly due to voters in England and Wales.

"When you are in unchartered territory you have effectively a blank sheet of paper in front of you then you have an opportunity to think things that may have been previously unthinkable," Sturgeon told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show.

Asked if Scotland could stay in the EU while England and Wales exited the bloc, Sturgeon said: "I don't think that should be ruled out at this stage."

Voters in Scotland rejected independence in 2014 but 62 percent backed remaining part of the EU in a referendum on June 23 in which the majority of voters across the four countries which make up the United Kingdom backed Brexit.

Sturgeon said after the Brexit result that a second independence referendum was now a possibilty, though she has also stressed that would not happen until it was clear most Scots were in favour of breaking from the United Kingdom.

In the wake of the shock vote, Sturgeon went on a flying visit to Brussels to meet EU executives and lawmakers.

According to sources, she discussed possible models for Scotland's future in the bloc, based on the fact that several states have some parts in the EU and some outside - as in the case of EU member Denmark and its non-EU territory Greenland.

Speaking about her visit to Brussels, Sturgeon said her welcome had been much warmer than during her visits in the run-up to the independence referendum.

"What I encountered in Brussels was a warmth, an openness a great sympathy to the position that Scotland find itself in," she said on Sunday.

Sturgeon also said Prime Minister Theresa May's comments on Friday, saying Britain would not trigger formal divorce talks with the EU until a "UK approach" had been agreed, gives her a strong bargaining position.

"That put Scotland in a very, very strong position, that puts me in a strong position." (THAT IS WHAT IT IS REALLY ALL ABOUT!!!! MRS STURGEONS EGO)

(Reporting by Karin Strohecker and Costas Pitas; Editing by Angus MacSwan)

More From Reuters"
		
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where is there anything wrong with any of that? All sounds perfectly reasonable to me. You are the one reading too much into what she's saying due to your inherent bias.


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## Buddy'sMum (17 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			It would be interesting to hear of the official response from Brussels,  wouldn't it?

I suspect that Mrs S is applying a degree of spin.

Alec.
		
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This report from the EPC suggests that there has been a significant shift in opinion re an independent Scotland remaining a member of the EU:
http://www.epc.eu/documents/uploads/pub_6836_scotland_and_the_european_union.pdf


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## dibbin (17 July 2016)

Judgemental - have you considered shortening your username to just "mental"?

Taking your three things in turn:

1. Nicola Sturgeon is doing what she believes is in the best interests of the Scottish people. She's the First Minister, that's her job. As others have said (repeatedly) a lot of people who voted "No" in the Scottish referendum did so because the campaign had quite a strong focus on remaining in the EU. Following the EU referendum, the people of Scotland, who voted fairly categorically to remain, are being dragged out of the EU by English and Welsh voters. So the reason that a lot of people had for remaining in the UK has gone. I feel like that's a fundamental political shift that merits revisiting the question of Scottish independence - particularly if the powers-that-be in Brussels won't consider Scotland's EU membership if they remain part of the UK when it leaves.

2. Any evidence to back that up? I have no idea how you draw that conclusion from the Reuters quotes you've shared, you seem to be reading more between the lines than is on them.

3. Agreed. Crack on.


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## Judgemental (17 July 2016)

dibbin said:



			Judgemental - have you considered shortening your username to just "mental"?

Taking your three things in turn:

1. Nicola Sturgeon is doing what she believes is in the best interests of the Scottish people. She's the First Minister, that's her job. As others have said (repeatedly) a lot of people who voted "No" in the Scottish referendum did so because the campaign had quite a strong focus on remaining in the EU. Following the EU referendum, the people of Scotland, who voted fairly categorically to remain, are being dragged out of the EU by English and Welsh voters. So the reason that a lot of people had for remaining in the UK has gone. I feel like that's a fundamental political shift that merits revisiting the question of Scottish independence - particularly if the powers-that-be in Brussels won't consider Scotland's EU membership if they remain part of the UK when it leaves.

2. Any evidence to back that up? I have no idea how you draw that conclusion from the Reuters quotes you've shared, you seem to be reading more between the lines than is on them.

3. Agreed. Crack on.
		
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The first point is that on this forum, particularly we never insult one another, it is considered very bad manners.

You are in Scotland, so I suppose we have to make allowances.

As I have said twice, the reason that I am for one, running with this subject is because of Sturgeon's blatant disregard for an agreement to stand aside from English votes for English laws, in particular the Hunting Act 2004.

1. The proposed changes under the Statutory Instrument, one of my passions, were to mirror exactly  the Act in Scotland, therefore any changes in England and Wales made no difference whatsoever to Scotland.

2. David Cameron gave an undertaking to his supporters that he would amend the act accordingly. But the wee lass from Sky thought she would be clever and tell the SNP in the H of C how to vote, so the debate had to be pulled.

3. Where I come from in the West Country, the big herds of Red Deer are a major problem an it requires a full pack of hounds to effectively move them on. Off the small fields of grazing that are so important to not only all the livestock farmers but my own land for my horses etc. Notwithstanding all the hayledge that is made. Along with timber that damage such as Larch Pole Pine, much favored in Scotland.

4. The proposed changes would have facilitated the necessary arrangements.

5. Also by way of example, in the City if you Welch on an agreement, you are finished, persona non-grata. Your name is not taken on the commodity, stock and shipping exchanges etc. If the so called first minister cannot honor her agreement and her clear statement before the general election and during the campaign, the SNP would not become involved in any debate in the H of C concerning the 2004 Hunting Act. Then she is not a fit and proper person to occupy the position.

If she is capable of welching on a simple agreement not to participate in a debate, I dread to think what she might do in the unlikely event she took control of Scotland and away from the UK. I have the greatest doubts about her integrity.


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## Alec Swan (17 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			This report from the EPC suggests that there has been a significant shift in opinion re an independent Scotland remaining a member of the EU:
http://www.epc.eu/documents/uploads/pub_6836_scotland_and_the_european_union.pdf

Click to expand...

I'm sorry Buddy'sMum but the report written by a certain Mr Avery,  is so biased and frankly,  ridiculous,  as to be barely worth consideration.  Whether we'd stay or leave,  it's riddled with such nonsense and party support as to make for little sense.  Were it of value,  and despite my stance,  I'd give it serious consideration,  but as it isn't I shan't.

The EPC wouldn't wish to influence public feeling?  An independent review?  Without bias?  Common now,  it's nonsense from a second rate journalist.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (17 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			The first point is that on this forum, particularly we never insult one another, it is considered very bad manners.

You are in Scotland, so I suppose we have to make allowances.

&#8230;&#8230;..

3. Where I come from in the West Country, the big herds of Red Deer are a major problem &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Rest assured of one thing;  Sturgeon cares even less for the Red Deer of the West Country than she does for the bi-legged inhabitants,  many of whom care for the Deer.  

Sturgeon will,  given the opportunity,  trample all and any who stand in her way.  My history isn't up to much,  I'll accept,  but has Scotland ever had a queen?

Alec.


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## Snuffles (17 July 2016)

The report states a "Prosperous Scotland" how would that equate without Englands cash ?


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## Fidgety (17 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm sorry Buddy'sMum but the report written by a certain Mr Avery,  is so biased and frankly,  ridiculous,  as to be barely worth consideration.  Whether we'd stay or leave,  it's riddled with such nonsense and party support as to make for little sense.  Were it of value,  and despite my stance,  I'd give it serious consideration,  but as it isn't I shan't.

The EPC wouldn't wish to influence public feeling?  An independent review?  Without bias?  Common now,  it's nonsense from a second rate journalist.

Alec.
		
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It's also not an official report .  At the bottom it states

_'Graham Avery is Senior Adviser at the European Policy Centre, Brussels, and Senior Member of St. Antony's
College, Oxford University. *In this briefing he expresses his personal view*s.'_


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## Buddy'sMum (17 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			The first point is that on this forum, particularly we never insult one another, it is considered very bad manners.

You are in Scotland, so I suppose we have to make allowances.
		
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Oh, the irony!


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## Buddy'sMum (17 July 2016)

Fidgety said:



			It's also not an official report .  At the bottom it states

_'Graham Avery is Senior Adviser at the European Policy Centre, Brussels, and Senior Member of St. Antony's
College, Oxford University. *In this briefing he expresses his personal view*s.'_

Click to expand...

Yes, actually I did see that when I read the report 

And official or not, it's written by a senior adviser at the EPC and published by the EPC. Which in itself is interesting.


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## Lizzie66 (17 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			And if you had even a remote understanding of how the Scottish Parliament works you would know that it can only legislate on certain areas, with many issues reserved for Westminster. You know, a Westminster government we didn't vote for.  

I have no issue with EVEL, as long as the issues voted on are ones which truly affect England only. But I very much doubt  that Mr Bercow has the ability to  make that determination. So no, it's not levelling the playing field at all.
		
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The Scottish people voted on whether they wanted to remain as part of the UK or become fully independent. The voted to remain. They therefore do have the government they voted for, the one voted for by the British people. The UK is a democracy that is ruled on a first past the post basis and therefore there are just as many English people that equally feel that they do not have the government they voted for.

The people of England are the only people that have nothing devolved to them. Now I do not want a fully devolved English parliament as I feel it would be an unnecessary additional burden. I do feel that those MPs that sit in constituencies that will not be covered by the law should refrain from voting. 

SNP prior to the last election said that they would voluntarily abide by this and then promptly changed their minds when it came to hunting with hounds. This is fully devolved to the Scottish Parliament and therefore they should have abstained.


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## Lizzie66 (17 July 2016)

ycbm said:



			But it's not GDP that pays the bills, it's tax revenues. What taxes does Scotland raise compared to its spending?  And if Scotland is self sufficient why does the Barnett formula give you a higher amount per head of public spending than more deprived areas in other parts of the Union?
		
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Scotland currently runs a £15 billion deficit between public spending and taxes raised. Despite this Scotland would still be classed as a net contributor to the EU based on its GDP and if accepted into the EU in its own right then it would have to contribute approx. £1.5 billion. So if Scotland chooses to leave the UK and join the EU it would lose automatic free access to the UK market (70% of its exports) and it would have to increase revenues from improved GDP or taxation by £16.5 billion just to maintain its current level of public services.

If it increased taxation it is likely that businesses would be pushed south over the border and if it didn't then it would find itself in an EU enforced austerity programme far harsher than anything that is currently imposed by the UK government.

I can vaguely understand wanting to be independent from the UK, ie similar to those of the UK wanting to leave the EU. What I can't understand is that they would then want to jump back into having probably less autonomy than it does now with its separate parliament.


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## Buddy'sMum (17 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			2. David Cameron gave an undertaking to his supporters that he would amend the act accordingly. But the wee lass from Sky thought she would be clever and tell the SNP in the H of C how to vote, so the debate had to be pulled.
		
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Irvine, Ayrshire, actually Judgemental, but don't concern yourself with facts.

The debate didn't have to be pulled, Cameron pulled it because he was facing certain defeat. Why don't you direct some of your ire at the Toriy and Labour MPs who were planning to vote against the amendment?


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## ester (17 July 2016)

Aw I liked the idea of her having dropped out the sky!


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## Goldenstar (17 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Rest assured of one thing;  Sturgeon cares even less for the Red Deer of the West Country than she does for the bi-legged inhabitants,  many of whom care for the Deer.  

Sturgeon will,  given the opportunity,  trample all and any who stand in her way.  My history isn't up to much,  I'll accept,  but has Scotland ever had a queen?

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Err yes Scotland had a famous queen she was called ( there's a clue coming ) Mary Queen of Scots .
She had bad taste in men and a taste for meddling in English affairs and a famous English queen had her head cut off .
Not sure what history can teach us from this story .


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## Countryman (17 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Sturgeon will,  given the opportunity,  trample all and any who stand in her way.  My history isn't up to much,  I'll accept,  but has Scotland ever had a queen?

Alec.
		
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Scotland has a Queen now - our current monarch!


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## Goldenstar (17 July 2016)

Countryman said:



			Scotland has a Queen now - our current monarch!
		
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That's is a very good point .


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## Alec Swan (17 July 2016)

Well I did say that my history wasn't up to much,  which is odd,  considering that I'm old enough to remember a good bit of it! 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (17 July 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			That's is a very good point .
		
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Indeed it is.  Do you suppose that HM will have to apply for a visa to visit Balmoral or Charles the Castle of May?

Alec.


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## Buddy'sMum (17 July 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Err yes Scotland had a famous queen she was called ( there's a clue coming ) Mary Queen of Scots .
She had bad taste in men and a taste for meddling in English affairs and a famous English queen had her head cut off .
Not sure what history can teach us from this story .
		
Click to expand...

Aw, c'mon, Goldenstar, be nice. She had a hard life. Many considered her to be the rightful heir to the English throne, and Elizabeth illegitimate, so I guess she believed she had a right to meddle.

We also had Queens Margaret, Mary II and Anne.


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## Buddy'sMum (17 July 2016)

ester said:



			Aw I liked the idea of her having dropped out the sky!
		
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 I'm starting to warm to her. Judgemental is helping quite a bit.


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## popsdosh (17 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			This report from the EPC suggests that there has been a significant shift in opinion re an independent Scotland remaining a member of the EU:
http://www.epc.eu/documents/uploads/pub_6836_scotland_and_the_european_union.pdf

Click to expand...

Read the bottom paragraph it is a briefing document to the EPC from one person and clearly has the warning expressing their own views not those of any EU institution then! Clutching at straws maybe.


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## Judgemental (17 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Indeed it is.  Do you suppose that HM will have to apply for a visa to visit Balmoral or Charles the Castle of May?

Alec.
		
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Chuckle.

Have seen a number of reports originating from Sturgeon this evening as a result of her interview on the Andrew Marr show this morning. I am sure you can pick them up, where she says "she is in a very very strong position as to the time of triggering Article 50", following Mrs May's visit to Bute House.

I bet Mrs May did not say anything or imply anything that could possible leave Sturgeon with that impression.

Even if Mrs May did, she can always change her mind.

It all points to somebody with a massive ego and suffering from megalomania. Hitler suffered from the disorder. 

In other words I am sure Whitehall have  weighted up Sturgeon. She believes she has some sort of power, when in reality she is no more than a puppet on a string.


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## ester (17 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			It all points to somebody with a massive ego and suffering from megalomania. Hitler suffered from the disorder.
		
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## Buddy'sMum (17 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Read the bottom paragraph it is a briefing document to the EPC from one person and clearly has the warning expressing their own views not those of any EU institution then! Clutching at straws maybe.
		
Click to expand...

Well I never! 

I've already responded to this, popsdosh


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## Buddy'sMum (17 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			Chuckle.

Have seen a number of reports originating from Sturgeon this evening as a result of her interview on the Andrew Marr show this morning. I am sure you can pick them up, where she says "she is in a very very strong position as to the time of triggering Article 50", following Mrs May's visit to Bute House.

I bet Mrs May did not say anything or imply anything that could possible leave Sturgeon with that impression.
		
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Oh yes she did 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-edinburgh-to-tell-scots-that-she-believes-w/



Judgemental said:



			Even if Mrs May did, she can always change her mind.
		
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WHAT?!?! You mean....welch?


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## Goldenstar (17 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Aw, c'mon, Goldenstar, be nice. She had a hard life. Many considered her to be the rightful heir to the English throne, and Elizabeth illegitimate, so I guess she believed she had a right to meddle.

We also had Queens Margaret, Mary II and Anne.
		
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Be nice ? 
Only stating facts .


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## dibbin (17 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			The first point is that on this forum, particularly we never insult one another, it is considered very bad manners.

You are in Scotland, so I suppose we have to make allowances.
		
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*snort* I take it back - Judgemental actually suits you just fine. Or does that mean I'm welching on my previous comment? 

And Nicola's from Irvine, not Skye. Or even Sky. Not that you'd be one to let the facts get in the way.

At this point I'm convinced Judgemental's actually Theresa May.


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## Judgemental (17 July 2016)

dibbin said:



			*snort* I take it back - Judgemental actually suits you just fine. Or does that mean I'm welching on my previous comment? 

And Nicola's from Irvine, not Skye. Or even Sky. Not that you'd be one to let the facts get in the way.

At this point I'm convinced Judgemental's actually Theresa May.
		
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Indeed Skye and my my,  Irvine is an ancient settlement, in medieval times a royal burgh, and now a new town on the coast of the Firth of Clyde in North Ayrshire, Scotland.

Well so it's Nicola then and your location is Ayrshire.

Say no more, conclusion drawn, message received. They all lived happily ever after.

Firth of Clyde too, the home of HMNB Faslane, it's all falling into place

Were I to be TM, I would consider it a great honor.


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## Lizzie66 (18 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Oh yes she did 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-edinburgh-to-tell-scots-that-she-believes-w/
WHAT?!?! You mean....welch? 

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What she actually said is &#8216;I&#8217;ve already said I won&#8217;t be triggering Article 50 until I think we have a United Kingdom approach and objectives for the negotiations. I think it&#8217;s important we establish that before we trigger Article 50&#8217;.

There is nothing in this that says Scotland has to agree (although the papers appear to be trying to re-interpret her words), just that Theresa May has to believe that the approach & objectives are clearly defined.


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## Buddy'sMum (18 July 2016)

Lizzie66 said:



			What she actually said is &#8216;I&#8217;ve already said I won&#8217;t be triggering Article 50 until I think we have a United Kingdom approach and objectives for the negotiations. I think it&#8217;s important we establish that before we trigger Article 50&#8217;.

There is nothing in this that says Scotland has to agree (although the papers appear to be trying to re-interpret her words), just that Theresa May has to believe that the approach & objectives are clearly defined.
		
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She also said "I believe with all my heart in the United Kingdom &#8211; the precious bond between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. This visit to Scotland is my first as Prime Minister and I&#8217;m coming here to show my commitment to preserving this special union that has endured for centuries.&#8221; 

Do you really think that she would be reckless enough to trigger Article 50 without the approach and objectives being endorsed by Scotland, NI and Wales?


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## Buddy'sMum (18 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			Indeed Skye and my my,  Irvine is an ancient settlement, in medieval times a royal burgh, and now a new town on the coast of the Firth of Clyde in North Ayrshire, Scotland.
		
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What would we do without Wikipedia?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (18 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			What would we do without Wikipedia?
		
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At a complete loss apparently  honestly Buddy's mum you seem like a nice lass with her head screwed on but trying to get someone so biased and politically immature to accept anything remotely resembling a facts it's like teaching a brick wall Chinese, impossible and pointless.  Hence why shutterbug and myself decided to just leave them to their warped beliefs, no such thing as an open mind on this section of the forum anyway.


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## dibbin (18 July 2016)

Black Beastie said:



			At a complete loss apparently  honestly Buddy's mum you seem like a nice lass with her head screwed on but trying to get someone so biased and politically immature to accept anything remotely resembling a facts it's like teaching a brick wall Chinese, impossible and pointless.  Hence why shutterbug and myself decided to just leave them to their warped beliefs, no such thing as an open mind on this section of the forum anyway.
		
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My thoughts exactly.


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## popsdosh (18 July 2016)

I wish you all well in Scotland ,however be careful and just remember whose political aims will be satisfied most by this situation.
Our only real argument south of the border is we should be able to control our own destiny as much as you can north of the border. The hunting vote showed up your first minister in a bad light down here as even those who did not agree could see it was none of her business. During the election she made a big point of saying she would not get involved and then went back on that straight away. Sorry but that is the facts all it was about as well was bringing the law into line with your own thats why her attitude was perverse to say the least. However I still think that was a political trap that she naively fell into as it was designed to show her up to be what she is it was never to change the law on hunting but brought forward the need for an English assembly in the eyes of many ,why do you think the changes were so weak. To me the easiest option is just stopping Scottish MPs voting on English only matters within Westminster as clearly the gentlemans agreement that was in place actually means nothing to NS.


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## popsdosh (18 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			She also said "I believe with all my heart in the United Kingdom  the precious bond between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. This visit to Scotland is my first as Prime Minister and Im coming here to show my commitment to preserving this special union that has endured for centuries. 

Do you really think that she would be reckless enough to trigger Article 50 without the approach and objectives being endorsed by Scotland, NI and Wales?
		
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That is Great in theory however how do you negotiate and achieve the objectives with somebody who does not believe in the union


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## Judgemental (18 July 2016)

STURGEON HAS ALL THE HALLMARKS OF PURE MEGALOMANIA. SHE IS THE MOST DANGEROUS and if mature would be saying it was useful and most courteous of Mrs May to visit and leave it at that, not to put a spin on the visit and exploit what 'may or may' not have been discussed. One simply cannot trust somebody who takes such an unreliable position.  

Herewith the comments from the Daily Mail, interestingly at the end of the piece, Downing Street expressly makes a denial.

"Nicola Sturgeon suggests she has a veto over when to trigger Brexit process after Theresa May put Scotland in a 'very, very strong position'

Sturgeon claims Theresa May has given her a veto over Brexit timing
Theresa May made visit to Edinburgh her first official trip as Prime Minister 
Promised not to trigger Article 50 until 'UK approach' had been agreed 
Sturgeon says this puts Scotland in a 'very, very strong position' 
SNP First Minister vows to 'use this position as well as I can'
Sturgeon's comments will infuriate Tory Brexit campaigners  

By MATT DATHAN, POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT FOR MAILONLINE
PUBLISHED: 14:14, 17 July 2016 | UPDATED: 16:18, 17 July 2016

Nicola Sturgeon has suggested she has a veto over when Britain triggers the formal process of leaving the EU. 
The First Minister said Theresa May had put Scotland in 'a very, very strong position' when it comes to triggering Article 50, which sets a two-year time limit on negotiations to leave. 

The pair met when Mrs May made her visit to Edinburgh on Friday her first official trip as Prime Minister.  
The new PM told Ms Sturgeon she would not start the Brexit process until she had agreed a 'UK approach' with leaders in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.  

Ms Sturgeon's words today will infuriate Tory Brexit campaigners, who warned on Friday that no region of the UK should be allowed to 'hold the rest of the country to ransom' by delaying the negotiations.  
Scotland was one of only three major regions to vote to stay in the EU, with six in ten Scots backing Remain. Only London and Northern Ireland were the other regions backing EU membership. 

Nicola Sturgeon has suggested she has a veto over when Britain triggers the formal process of leaving the EU
Asked today if Mrs May had given her a veto over triggering Article 50, Ms Sturgeon told the BBC: 'That certainly appeared to be an interpretation that some put on the Prime Minister's remarks after the meeting...and certainly from what she said after the meeting, I think that puts Scotland in now in a very, very strong position.
'That's a position I am going to use as well as I can.'

Fury over Scotland&#8217;s Brexit &#8216;veto&#8217;: MPs react angrily as...

The First Minister also insisted that the EU's attitude to Scotland's place in Europe has softened since June's referendum result, and the option of Scotland staying in while the rest of the UK 'Brexits' should not be ruled out.
Mrs May's visit to Bute House, the First Minister's official residence, aimed to show her commitment to preserving the United Kingdom following the UK's decision to leave the EU.

But Downing Street denied Mrs May had handed a veto to Miss Sturgeon, who wants to keep Scotland in the EU".


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## Lizzie66 (18 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			She also said "I believe with all my heart in the United Kingdom  the precious bond between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. This visit to Scotland is my first as Prime Minister and Im coming here to show my commitment to preserving this special union that has endured for centuries. 

Do you really think that she would be reckless enough to trigger Article 50 without the approach and objectives being endorsed by Scotland, NI and Wales?
		
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Scotland are not going to agree, Wales voted out and the NI Assembly were for out with the people being for in (probably because they could foresee further troubles if borders were reintroduced with Eire).

As PM of the UK she has a remit to adhere to the will of the people of the UK therefore although she will try to reassure the people of Scotland that the withdrawal from the EU will not have a negative impact on them, she will ultimately give notice under Article 50 and we will withdraw from the EU. she has no choice, Scotland cannot hold the rest of the UK to ransom.


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## ester (18 July 2016)

Seriously, we are quoting the daily fail as a good source of what has gone on??! That's worse than the express early. Do you people only read such 'quality' publications?!


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## Goldenstar (18 July 2016)

Lizzie66 said:



			Scotland are not going to agree, Wales voted out and the NI Assembly were for out with the people being for in (probably because they could foresee further troubles if borders were reintroduced with Eire).

As PM of the UK she has a remit to adhere to the will of the people of the UK therefore although she will try to reassure the people of Scotland that the withdrawal from the EU will not have a negative impact on them, she will ultimately give notice under Article 50 and we will withdraw from the EU. she has no choice, Scotland cannot hold the rest of the UK to ransom.
		
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That's about it in a nut shell .
It's not really fruitful to try think you know what leaders think by what the press say and position things people have said .
England and Wales ( sadly I think but that's the past ) voted for out .We had a country wide referendum a country that Scotland had recently voted to stay in I just don't see how anyone can reasonably say that Scotland could after a vote on a one person one vote basis say that everybody has to accept a change in the basis that you cast your vote .

It's really straightforward Scotland voted very recently to stay in part of the U.K. and the U.K. has voted to leave the EU.
TM has said she will deliver Brexit she has to do that .

On another point if as NS tells us all the time Scotland will do fine and dandy on its own in economic terms then it's likely because of the very poor struggling countries within the EU that it would be a big per capita contributor to the EU ( ATM only Germany contributes more than the UK ).
And then theres the euro , membership would mean accepting the euro who in their right mind would vote for that in the current circumstances .


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## Judgemental (18 July 2016)

ester said:



			Seriously, we are quoting the daily fail as a good source of what has gone on??! That's worse than the express early. Do you people only read such 'quality' publications?!
		
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For the simple reason the two you mention, generously allow one the whole story on-line, which can easily be copied and pasted. Whereas such as the Times only allow one a 'sample' unless one subscribes. 

That said for what it's worth, there are a number of letters in today's Daily Telegraph mirroring exactly what we are saying and fundamentally saying Sturgeon is, bad mannered, lacks political courtesy and is dishonest.


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## Buddy'sMum (18 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			That is Great in theory however how do you negotiate and achieve the objectives with somebody who does not believe in the union
		
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You negotiate. 

The First Minister has the Scottish Parliament to answer to, she doesn't make the decisions herself, you know. She will do what she and the Scottish Parliament believe is in the best interests of the Scottish people. That is her job.


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## Snuffles (18 July 2016)

When does England get a vote on Scotland leaving ? (ducks below parapet )


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## Buddy'sMum (18 July 2016)

dibbin said:



			My thoughts exactly.
		
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Cheers, BB and Dibbin  yeah, I'm done with this thread too. 
You can't have a sensible discussion about Scotland with people whose knowledge of Scotland comes from Wikipedia FFS and who give any credence at all to the drivel published by the Daily Fail and the Express.


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## Judgemental (18 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			You negotiate. 

The First Minister has the Scottish Parliament to answer to, she doesn't make the decisions herself, you know. She will do what she and the Scottish Parliament believe is in the best interests of the Scottish people. That is her job.
		
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Yes I agree completely but that does not remove the expectation of normal diplomatic and political courtesies from the First Minister.

Since we, folk in England are so bereft of knowledge of Scotland, perhaps you can explain why the First Minister does not take a seat in the House of Commons. Somebody else asked that question and it went unanswered.

The other question I have, in the event Scotland cedes to the EU, are they going to have the Euro because I cannot see the EU heads of state entertaining the Scottish Pound assuming there is such a currency, largely for ideological reasons, notwithstanding it's value is linked to the GB Pound.   

That is a very serious and non-combative question which many have asked and are asking but simply cannot get a straight answer.

I will point out this thread was started on Wednesday 13 July at 09:08 am it is now Monday 18 July  12:08 pm. The forum visit count is 9,336 probably a record for only five days for our little Hunting Forum, so something of importance is being said, considering the majority of posters are the regulars. Somebody outside of the hunting and the equine world, are interested in our pearls of wisdom. Perhaps all those with guilty consciences, as to why we, such an unlikely group are taking such an interest in Sturgeon and the whole Scots question in the first place.


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## MotherOfChickens (18 July 2016)

Snuffles said:



			When does England get a vote on Scotland leaving ? (ducks below parapet )
		
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Why do you care? Not being snarky but I am interested in why those living in England care to the point of being dismissive and rude about an opposing point of view. While there are a small % of Leave voters who may be anti-English but this is not an anti-England issue. It is not about hating England, its about wanting Scotland to be the country it wants to be (arguably it wouldn't need independence for that to happen but that hasn't been on the table yet). Why take it so personally?


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## Lizzie66 (18 July 2016)

ester said:



			Seriously, we are quoting the daily fail as a good source of what has gone on??! That's worse than the express early. Do you people only read such 'quality' publications?!
		
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Do you mind not using generic terms such as "you people" not only is the inference from that is that we are all reading and accepting as gospel a particular point of view it is also shows an extremely arrogant, patronising attitude as well as being intellectual snobbery of the worst kind. All the newspapers have their own slant, if they didn't it would be pretty pointless have so many different papers. The market they are aiming at will determine the bias they show and the depth of content they include. All of the papers tend to publish a version of the truth it is frequently what is omitted that actually slants the article rather than factual inaccuracies in what is published.


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## Judgemental (18 July 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			Why do you care? Not being snarky but I am interested in why those living in England care to the point of being dismissive and rude about an opposing point of view. While there are a small % of Leave voters who may be anti-English but this is not an anti-England issue. It is not about hating England, its about wanting Scotland to be the country it wants to be (arguably it wouldn't need independence for that to happen but that hasn't been on the table yet). Why take it so personally?
		
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If you go back to my post on page 16 you will see for my part, because Sturgeon and her H of C minions welched (or as we say in the West Country 'RAN WORD') on the deal over the Hunting Act 2004 and the use of the Statutory Instrument, to make some important and very necessary amendments.

If you can tell me how to shift thirty head of red deer off my small acres, permanently, without a full pack of hounds, do please advise.

Also what that level of numbers does so far as THE CONSTANT RISK of Lyme's Disease is concerned, to horses and humans alike.

No we are told we don't understand Scotland, by the same token they and in Sturgeon's urban arrogance are content to interfere with our domestic issues.

Believe me and I dare say there are many others who post on this forum will say the same, the issue of the Hunting Act 2004 and Sturgeon's dishonesty, will never be forgiven and will never go away. Not to mention all the hunting folk up and down the country who are very angry on the subject.

To my mind we are just as effective as any march in London.


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## ester (18 July 2016)

Lizzie66 said:



			Do you mind not using generic terms such as "you people" not only is the inference from that is that we are all reading and accepting as gospel a particular point of view it is also shows an extremely arrogant, patronising attitude as well as being intellectual snobbery of the worst kind. All the newspapers have their own slant, if they didn't it would be pretty pointless have so many different papers. The market they are aiming at will determine the bias they show and the depth of content they include. All of the papers tend to publish a version of the truth it is frequently what is omitted that actually slants the article rather than factual inaccuracies in what is published.
		
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Err, by 'you people' used as a turn of phrase I did mean the people posting links to these pillars of reporting society. No inference that anyone else on this thread is all reading and accepting as gospel a particular point of view, more that those who keep providing links to them must think they have some value and truth in them or they wouldn't be posting them. 
Personally I am not a fan of newspapers because it will always be full of inaccuracies and would question anyone who uses any of them as their primary source to be quoted on here to back up their argument. You will find one that agrees with you! And if that is the best you can come up with to support your argument I don't think you can be surprised if it is met with a bit of an eye roll.


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## Buddy'sMum (18 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			Since we, folk in England are so bereft of knowledge of Scotland, perhaps you can explain why the First Minister does not take a seat in the House of Commons. Somebody else asked that question and it went unanswered.
		
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Couldn't find the answer on Wikipedia? 
The First Minister is a MSP but not a MP and therefore cannot sit in the UK Parliament.


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## MotherOfChickens (18 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			If you go back to my post on page 16 you will see for my part, because Sturgeon and her H of C minions welched (or as we say in the West Country 'RAN WORD') on the deal over the Hunting Act 2004 and the use of the Statutory Instrument, to make some important and very necessary amendments.

If you can tell me how to shift thirty head of red deer off my small acres, permanently, without a full pack of hounds, do please advise.

Also what that level of numbers does so far as THE CONSTANT RISK of Lyme's Disease is concerned, to horses and humans alike.

No we are told we don't understand Scotland, by the same token they and in Sturgeon's urban arrogance are content to interfere with our domestic issues.

Believe me and I dare say there are many others who post on this forum will say the same, the issue of the Hunting Act 2004 and Sturgeon's dishonesty, will never be forgiven and will never go away. Not to mention all the hunting folk up and down the country who are very angry on the subject.

To my mind we are just as effective as any march in London.
		
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erm, we have deer too. 

As for not forgiving NS on this, in the general scheme of things, small issue-there is way more for Scotland to 'let go' when it comes to being lied to, stolen from and being controlled by successive governments that were not voted for by those in Scotland in the last 40 years (for starters).

Scotland is not a region of England.

oh, and fwiw the term 'welch' says more about you than anything else. Maybe look it up.


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## Lizzie66 (18 July 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			erm, we have deer too. 

As for not forgiving NS on this, in the general scheme of things, small issue-there is way more for Scotland to 'let go' when it comes to being lied to, stolen from and being controlled by successive governments that were not voted for by those in Scotland in the last 40 years (for starters).

Scotland is not a region of England.
		
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Not taking issue with you here on your disagreement with JM as I don't agree with his pov either. However the party with the largest vote share in Scotland in 1997, 2001 and 2005 was Labour and Labour were the government of the day. So they have been governed by the party they selected.

I agree that Scotland is not a region of England it is however a region of the United Kingdom.

I would be interested in what way you believe Scotland has been stolen from ? The Barnet formula ensures that the Scotland per head gets more money than England or Wales and largely this is understandable due its geographical spread of people and the fact that providing a similar level of service to those in the H&I would cost significantly more per head.

Scotland pushed by the SNP had a referendum on its independence, SNP said once in a lifetime and are now backing away from this. If the result had been the other way around would they have been willing to listen to arguments for holding another referendum ? Of course not. If she genuinely has the interests of the Scottish people at heart then she should be putting all her effort into ensuring the UK succeeds and not providing a distraction that we could all well do without at this moment in time.

If the whole of the UK does well then all its people do well and surely this should be the aim of all.


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## MotherOfChickens (18 July 2016)

Lizzie66 said:



			I agree that Scotland is not a region of England it is however a region of the United Kingdom.

.
		
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no, it's not a region. It's a nation, a country. 

The relevant information as to the billions taken from Scotland in the 70s/80s are provided within the many links earlier in this thread (or possibly another one, I can't remember) Is Scotland the only part of the UK to suffer from neglect and underinvestment? No-but Scotland does have option of doing something about it for themselves.

As explained ad nauseam, many people voted 'No' on the basis of being in the EU. We are no longer in the EU and we didnt vote for that. NS is looking at all possibilities, Independence being one, and so she should- that is her job. I am not necessarily pro-Independence at this time but we do have a right to think and talk about it.


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## Judgemental (18 July 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			no, it's not a region. It's a nation, a country.
		
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I am rather busy at the moment and was saving up all the responses for this evening.

But the above, oh dear, that does need an immediate reply, next you are going to tell us the Queen has abdicated from Scotland.

That it's, President Sturgeon of The Republic of Scotland.

Goodness me the lady has certainly brain washed, 'you people'. 

The ghosts of Jacobites still walk and wail in the mists.


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## millikins (18 July 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			As explained ad nauseam, many people voted 'No' on the basis of being in the EU. We are no longer in the EU and we didnt vote for that. NS is looking at all possibilities, Independence being one, and so she should- that is her job. I am not necessarily pro-Independence at this time but we do have a right to think and talk about it.
		
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And how do you know this? An in/out UK referendum was not in prospect at the time of the independence referendum.


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## dibbin (18 July 2016)

millikins said:



			And how do you know this? An in/out UK referendum was not in prospect at the time of the independence referendum.
		
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I personally know people who voted No for that reason, because there was dubiety over whether an independent Scotland would be able to remain in or join the EU.


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## Snuffles (18 July 2016)

MoC  we are still in the EU and i believe we will continue to be !


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## MotherOfChickens (18 July 2016)

millikins said:



			And how do you know this? An in/out UK referendum was not in prospect at the time of the independence referendum.
		
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being in the EU was a major selling point of voting 'No' in the independence vote. Being out of the EU upon an Independence was a major reason people voted No.


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## millikins (18 July 2016)

dibbin said:



			I personally know people who voted No for that reason, because there was dubiety over whether an independent Scotland would be able to remain in or join the EU.
		
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Maybe, but that is anecdotal. An awful lot voted "no" too because despite repeated opportunities to do so, Alex Salmond was unable to offer a credible answer as to how an independent Scotland would be financed, or what currency it would use.


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## MotherOfChickens (18 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			But the above, oh dear, that does need an immediate reply, next you are going to tell us the Queen has abdicated from Scotland.
		
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Don't actually see what the Queen has to do with it. Scotland is still a country, not a region. The Queen could still be Queen of it, that wasnt in question for the last referendum.   I fail to see what the point of the royals is in 2016 exactly but I don't care personally whether they are there or not.


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## MotherOfChickens (18 July 2016)

millikins said:



			Maybe, but that is anecdotal. An awful lot voted "no" too because despite repeated opportunities to do so, Alex Salmond was unable to offer a credible answer as to how an independent Scotland would be financed, or what currency it would use.
		
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exactly!. now we are up **** creek without a paddle (which wasn't our doing) and the temptation is to say **** it, lets do it anyway. How is this so difficult to understand? Bearing in mind I've not said that I think its a great idea, or that Scotland being attached to the EU is necessarily a good idea either.


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## Buddy'sMum (18 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			I am rather busy at the moment and was saving up all the responses for this evening.

But the above, oh dear, that does need an immediate reply, next you are going to tell us the Queen has abdicated from Scotland.

That it's, President Sturgeon of The Republic of Scotland.

Goodness me the lady has certainly brain washed, 'you people'. 

The ghosts of Jacobites still walk and wail in the mists.
		
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OK I'll bite. 

What, pray tell, do you think Scotland is, if not a country, Judgemental?


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## dibbin (18 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			OK I'll bite. 

What, pray tell, do you think Scotland is, if not a country, Judgemental?
		
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I suspect the answer will be "a post-apocalyptic wasteland populated by kilt-wearing savages, and presided over by a RUDE FECKLESS SHE-BEAST IN A PINK SUIT".


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## MotherOfChickens (18 July 2016)

dibbin said:



			I suspect the answer will be "a post-apocalyptic wasteland populated by kilt-wearing savages, and presided over by a RUDE FECKLESS SHE-BEAST IN A PINK SUIT".
		
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*snorts*


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## Goldenstar (18 July 2016)

Snuffles said:



			When does England get a vote on Scotland leaving ? (ducks below parapet )
		
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Of course not 
Shame isn't it .


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## Buddy'sMum (18 July 2016)

dibbin said:



			I suspect the answer will be "a post-apocalyptic wasteland populated by kilt-wearing savages, and presided over by a RUDE FECKLESS SHE-BEAST IN A PINK SUIT".
		
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PMSL. I'm off to edit the Wikipedia entry...


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## Alec Swan (18 July 2016)

dibbin said:



			I suspect the answer will be "a post-apocalyptic wasteland populated by kilt-wearing savages, and presided over by a RUDE FECKLESS SHE-BEAST IN A PINK SUIT".
		
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Added to this,  Scotland's losing its appeal;

https://www.facebook.com/brian.tonkin/videos/1648775333823/

Alec.


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## fburton (18 July 2016)

millikins said:



			Maybe, but that is anecdotal. An awful lot voted "no" too because despite repeated opportunities to do so, Alex Salmond was unable to offer a credible answer as to how an independent Scotland would be financed, or what currency it would use.
		
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One reason I voted No to Scottish Independence was that I had been persuaded that it would be bad for science research (just as I fear Brexit will be). For me the EU issue was minor, although I was and am in favour of EU membership on purely selfish grounds.

Now my heart is telling me I might as well vote Yes in any new Indyref2, because we are beggared anyway and one might as well be hanged for a sheep etc., although my head is telling my heart to "Haud yir wheesht, yi haverin bastirt!".


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## Judgemental (18 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Couldn't find the answer on Wikipedia? 
The First Minister is a MSP but not a MP and therefore cannot sit in the UK Parliament.
		
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Thank you for that piece of enlightenment  it is most helpful.

What about my question concerning the currency and the Euro?

I have been watching the current debate in the H of C concerning Faslane and our Nuclear deterrent.

The SNP have been trotting out policy and the views of 'President' Sturgeon on Nuclear armaments.

The amount of money and economic well being injected into Faslane and area by the Navy, is phenomenal, yet the SNP say they don't want the money or contribution it makes to the economy.

Plainly these people need to mature and pay less attention to the fanatical frenzy of nationalism, whipped up by 'President' Sturgeon


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## Judgemental (18 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			OK I'll bite. 

What, pray tell, do you think Scotland is, if not a country, Judgemental?
		
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It's our country and the country is the United Kingdom. 

You people are not mature enough to have a country to call your own because the governance is defective.

I was thinking that may be, 'President' Sturgeon is so deluded, she thinks she is a reincarnation of Bonnie Prince Charlie and is the young 'pretender' to the throne of England, supported by all the Jacobite ghosts. 

Och I you'll be troublesome again.......


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## Judgemental (18 July 2016)

Have been watching some more of the Nuclear deterrent debate.

It dawned on me, all this nonsense peddled by the SNP and Sturgeon, so far as remaining part of the EU and or independence has a great deal to do with Faslane and the cost. A cost that the Scottish assembly does not have to meet, nevertheless the country benefits from all the money Faslane costs. 

Seemingly as long as the Faslane facility is fully operational, Scotland is tied to the United Kingdom, hence the fact the SNP and Sturgeon wholly misguidedly want to follow a juvenile narcissistic path of unilateral nuclear disarmament.

They and she could not give a damn for the security of the jobs created by Faslane, or the security of the United Kingdom.

They have one focus, that of selfish egocentric arrogance.


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## dibbin (18 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Added to this,  Scotland's losing its appeal;

https://www.facebook.com/brian.tonkin/videos/1648775333823/

Alec.
		
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Well, that's more factually accurate and favourable to the Scots than some of the posts on here ...


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## Judgemental (18 July 2016)

Well there you are good people of Scotland, your leader is wholly unreliable, dishonest and duplicitous.

Plainly her spin was an outright lie.

What ever you do stick with the UK and don't revisit Independence. Sturgeon will spin to such an extent to the EU, that they will give her the order of the boot!

By MATT DATHAN, POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT FOR MAILONLINE
PUBLISHED: 10:52, 18 July 2016 | UPDATED: 19:21, 18 July 2016

"Nicola Sturgeon&#8217;s office has admitted Scotland does not have a veto on Britain&#8217;s Brexit negotiations after she appeared to suggest Theresa May had given her a say over when to trigger Article 50.

The new Prime Minister told Scotland&#8217;s First Minister on Friday she would not trigger the formal process for leaving the EU until she had agreed a &#8216;UK approach&#8217;.

Asked whether this meant Scotland had been given a veto, Ms Sturgeon told the BBC yesterday that it &#8216;certainly appeared to be an interpretation that some put on the Prime Minister&#8217;s remarks&#8217; and said they had put Scotland in a &#8216;very, very strong position&#8217; that she would &#8216;use as well as I can&#8217;.

Today Downing Street then dismissed any suggestion that Mrs May had offered Ms Sturgeon a veto and insisted the Prime Minister would have the final say on when Britain starts the Brexit process.

Ms Sturgeon&#8217;s spokesperson admitted tonight: &#8216;We&#8217;re not going around saying we have a veto, because frankly, we don&#8217;t."

Frankly bearing in mind the result of the Nuclear deterrent vote, being carried with a massive majority for the government this evening, Sturgeon should resign.


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## Buddy'sMum (18 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			Well there you are good people of Scotland, your leader is wholly unreliable, dishonest and duplicitous.

Plainly her spin was an outright lie.

What ever you do stick with the UK and don't revisit Independence. Sturgeon will spin to such an extent to the EU, that they will give her the order of the boot!

By MATT DATHAN, POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT FOR MAILONLINE
PUBLISHED: 10:52, 18 July 2016 | UPDATED: 19:21, 18 July 2016

"Nicola Sturgeons office has admitted Scotland does not have a veto on Britains Brexit negotiations after she appeared to suggest Theresa May had given her a say over when to trigger Article 50.

The new Prime Minister told Scotlands First Minister on Friday she would not trigger the formal process for leaving the EU until she had agreed a UK approach.

Asked whether this meant Scotland had been given a veto, Ms Sturgeon told the BBC yesterday that it certainly appeared to be an interpretation that some put on the Prime Ministers remarks and said they had put Scotland in a very, very strong position that she would use as well as I can.

Today Downing Street then dismissed any suggestion that Mrs May had offered Ms Sturgeon a veto and insisted the Prime Minister would have the final say on when Britain starts the Brexit process.

Ms Sturgeons spokesperson admitted tonight: Were not going around saying we have a veto, because frankly, we dont."

Frankly bearing in mind the result of the Nuclear deterrent vote, being carried with a massive majority for the government this evening, Sturgeon should resign.
		
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Did you actually watch the Andrew Marr interview? The First Minister never actually said Scotland has a veto, despite two attempts by the interviewer to get her to. 

So that's a bit of a non story, Judgemental.


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## Judgemental (18 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Did you actually watch the Andrew Marr interview? The First Minister never actually said Scotland has a veto, despite two attempts by the interviewer to get her to. 

So that's a bit of a non story, Judgemental.
		
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Look no matter  how much all you folk are infatuated with Sturgeon, it is no good dressing her up and as something reliable.

Every single paper has said the same, tonight, plainly she let it be known she had a veto. 

I am always impeccably courteous to people who post on this forum but you are all being remarkably naive and gullible.


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## Buddy'sMum (18 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			Look no matter  how much all you folk are infatuated with Sturgeon, it is no good dressing her up and as something reliable.

Every single paper has said the same, tonight, plainly she let it be known she had a veto. 

I am always impeccably courteous to people who post on this forum but you are all being remarkably naive and gullible.
		
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Here's a link to the full interview. At what point does the First Minister say Scotland has a veto? 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p041r1ch


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## Goldenstar (18 July 2016)

Well at least we all agree on something NS can not veto Brexit .


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## Buddy'sMum (18 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			It's our country and the country is the United Kingdom.
		
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The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is not a country, Judgemental


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## ycbm (19 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is not a country, Judgemental 

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That's the nub of the problem isn't it?  Great Britain has existed since 1707 yet Scots insist they live in a different country (and mean more by that  than just semantics). Meanwhile, the US has existed since 1789 and identify as Americans even though the population of most of their states far exceeds that of Scotland, 38 million in California.


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## ester (19 July 2016)

'Asked whether this meant Scotland had been given a veto, Ms Sturgeon told the BBC yesterday that it &#8216;certainly appeared to be an interpretation that* some* put on the Prime Minister&#8217;s remarks&#8217; and said they had put Scotland in a &#8216;very, very strong position&#8217; that she would &#8216;use as well as I can&#8217;.
		
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'
Some, not Nicola herself. 




			after she appeared to suggest Theresa May had given her a say over when to trigger Article 50.
		
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'appeared to suggest' - in whose opinion? lots of things can appear but not actually be correct
'given her a say over *when* to trigger article 50 - when, no veto suggested just that it would be done in discussion. 

Sorry but nowhere to I see that NS has been touting that TM had given her a veto on whether to trigger article 50 and I sometimes wonder if we are reading the same things or if JM is adding random info that isn't actually there!?


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## ester (19 July 2016)

ycbm said:



			That's the nub of the problem isn't it?  Great Britain has existed since 1707 yet Scots insist they live in a different country (and mean more by that  than just semantics). Meanwhile, the US has existed since 1789 and identify as Americans even though the population of most of their states far exceeds that of Scotland, 38 million in California.
		
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Yeah, but the American states have no/very little history as far as the current settleage is concerned prior to then. Scotland conversely has lots as a country.


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## ycbm (19 July 2016)

That's true, Ester.


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## millikins (19 July 2016)

ester said:



			Yeah, but the American states have no/very little history as far as the current settleage is concerned prior to then. Scotland conversely has lots as a country.
		
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Yes, including providing the the first joint monarch of England and Scotland and the Stuart dynasty, numerous Prime Ministers and other senior members of the governing class.


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## Judgemental (19 July 2016)

Well folks, fascinated to know who is viewing bearing in mind the views stand at 10,044  for this thread in six days. We never have that view rate on this forum.

Perhaps Sturgeon and her minions. 

What I cannot understand is this remarkable lack of patriotism. The SNP voted against Trident.  A vote that only takes place once every 50 odd years, give or take.

It brings in about £31 billion into the economy of Scotland and keeps us at the top of the global tree in so many respects, with a kindred spirit generated because we are one of the five powers who maintain the nuclear deterrent. 

There is Barnett Consequential, a financial gift to Scotland

When we are out of the EU, VAT can be set according to the needs of the Scots and inclement weather when it comes to fuel bills.

Also a variety of special financial arrangements can be put in place to help for example, the whiskey industry and production of tweed. 

Sorry I just don't get all this aggravation that Sturgeon and the SNP are dishing out.

Perhaps somebody would explain.


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## MotherOfChickens (19 July 2016)

If you want Trident JM, arrange to have it stationed in the Thames, or off Cornwall. 

Some of you need to look up the definitions of regions and countries.


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## MotherOfChickens (19 July 2016)

ester said:



			'
Some, not Nicola herself. 



'appeared to suggest' - in whose opinion? lots of things can appear but not actually be correct
'given her a say over *when* to trigger article 50 - when, no veto suggested just that it would be done in discussion. 

Sorry but nowhere to I see that NS has been touting that TM had given her a veto on whether to trigger article 50 and I sometimes wonder if we are reading the same things or if JM is adding random info that isn't actually there!?
		
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thank you Ester.


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## ycbm (19 July 2016)

It seems to me that Scotland is an unsolvable problem. It can't support itself and has to take money from a richer country to survive. It doesn't want that to be England and would prefer it to be the EU. But it also wants a socialist society which can only be financed by borrowing, and the EU would not allow it to join the Euro, a requirement of joining the EU, without an austerity budget which would wipe that ambition out. Meanwhile, it is held against the English that they will not allow Britain's economic strength to be put into jeopardy by Scots borrowing to obtain their socialist objectives.

There's no answer, is there?

What has this got to do with hunting  ?


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## Judgemental (19 July 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			If you want Trident JM, arrange to have it stationed in the Thames, or off Cornwall. 

Some of you need to look up the definitions of regions and countries.
		
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Hold hard a moment. What is wrong with Trident being based as Faslane. It employs 15,000 huge. Also a huge number of ancillary industries are benefiting Scotland.

Don't you want the money and benefits to the economy.


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## Judgemental (19 July 2016)

ycbm said:



			It seems to me that Scotland is an unsolvable. It can't support itself and has to take money from a richer country to survive. It doesn't want that to be England and would prefer it to be the EU. But it also wants a socialist society which can only be financed by borrowing, and the EU would not allow it to join the Euro, a requirement of joining the EU, without an austerity budget which would wipe that ambition out. Meanwhile, it is held against the English that they will not allow their economic strength to be put into jeopardy by Scots borrowing to obtain their socialist dream.

There's no answer, is there?

What has this got to do with hunting  ?
		
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Indeed you are so right ycbm.

So far as the hunting is concerned, go to page 16 and you will see my post concerning the issue of the proposed amendment, to the 2004 Hunting Act that was set down for debate in the H of C, using the Statutory Instrument. 

Sturgeon (she does not get the courtesy of her given name or Mrs because she 'ran word' and or welched) gave her word that the SNP would stand aside in the Commons when English Votes for English laws were involved.

At the last minute she gave instructions to her SNP Mob in the Commons not to stand aside, simply for egotistical narcissistic reasons and to assert herself without being present. Consequently the debate had to be pulled. 

As a result she has made herself 'the Fox' we cannot hunt and will be hounded at every opportunity.

Frankly I think she should resign, because she is wholly unpatriotic and has lost the vote on Trident and is out of her depth concerning Independence and the membership of the EU.


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## ester (19 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			Well folks, fascinated to know who is viewing bearing in mind the views stand at 10,044  for this thread in six days. We never have that view rate on this forum.

.
		
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Really? You know all the view rates do you? I don't think you spend enough time in the clubhouse .


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## ester (19 July 2016)

I would also think poorly of anyone who thought of financial incentives when considering whether to have a nuclear weapon. I think and would hope that the arguments involved in that are way beyond the finances!

oh and page 16, sort your settings out, some of us are only on page 6


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## MotherOfChickens (19 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			Hold hard a moment. What is wrong with Trident being based as Faslane. It employs 15,000 huge. Also a huge number of ancillary industries are benefiting Scotland.

Don't you want the money and benefits to the economy.
		
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it directly supports 520 civilian jobs (according to the MOD via a FOI request). Along with 3.5K Navy, 1.5K contractors and another 1.6K civilian jobs affected (but not directly relying upon) Faslane.  Not quite 15,000. How long will these missiles actually be useful-how long will the technology be applicable?

FWIW I dont have strong feelings pro or anti NW. They might be a necessary evil, noone really knows for sure. But again, Scottish MPs voted categorically to not renew, Scotland doesn't want it-gives you about 20 years to find a new site. Why so reluctant?


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## Judgemental (19 July 2016)

ester said:



			Really? You know all the view rates do you? I don't think you spend enough time in the clubhouse .
		
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I said this Forum, i.e the hunting. It is very unusual. What part of word HUNTING  do you not understand?


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## ester (19 July 2016)

Most would deem this a room, on a forum....
But I understand if you don't get that.


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## Judgemental (19 July 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			it directly supports 520 civilian jobs (according to the MOD via a FOI request). Along with 3.5K Navy, 1.5K contractors and another 1.6K civilian jobs affected (but not directly relying upon) Faslane.  Not quite 15,000. How long will these missiles actually be useful-how long will the technology be applicable?

FWIW I dont have strong feelings pro or anti NW. They might be a necessary evil, noone really knows for sure. But again, Scottish MPs voted categorically to not renew, Scotland doesn't want it-gives you about 20 years to find a new site. Why so reluctant?
		
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I have never informed myself on the subject however, in the last 24 hours, I am told the Americans and French use the facility, for repairs and the like, because we have exceptional technical skills for which they are billed. 

They, particularly the Americans like the location so I am told. Understandable.

Also I suppose it's out of the way of prying spying eyes.


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## ester (19 July 2016)

and a thread about hunting without a noseband got nearly 2k views in a day, so I think you have some way to go/don't need to worry about an invasion of NS fans just yet....


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## Judgemental (19 July 2016)

ester said:



			Most would deem this a room, on a forum....
But I understand if you don't get that.
		
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Ok if you are going to be picky, lets settle for THREAD

At least Sturgeon and the SNP are being useful in one respect. Hopefully it is helping H & H's advertising revenue.


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## dibbin (19 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			I have never informed myself on the subject
		
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... and therein lies the rub.


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## ester (19 July 2016)

Oh, well it will definitely be the biggest view rate on this thread, if you are only comparing to yourself you will always be the winner .


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## Judgemental (19 July 2016)

dibbin said:



			... and therein lies the rub.
		
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Perhaps I should have used the word 'hitherto' but having informed myself, it is now clear your 'Nicola' is a complete failure.

1. Failed in the Trident vote.

2. Hopelessly out of her depth so far as the EU is concerned - to Euro or not to Euro, that is the question.

3. Failed on Independence.

4. Plainly upset Downing Street.

5. Upset us hunting chaps.

6. She exhibits a remarkable lack of patriotism.


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## ester (19 July 2016)

If that is the case why are you so worried about what she does and says?


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## dibbin (19 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			Perhaps I should have used the word 'hitherto' but having informed myself, it is now clear your 'Nicola' is a complete failure.

1. Failed in the Trident vote.

2. Hopelessly out of her depth so far as the EU is concerned - to Euro or not to Euro, that is the question.

3. Failed on Independence.

4. Plainly upset Downing Street.

5. Upset us hunting chaps.

6. She exhibits a remarkable lack of patriotism.
		
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Those are all opinions. No informing necessary, it would appear. Patriotism, in particular, is wholly dependent on where you're standing.


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## Judgemental (19 July 2016)

ester said:



			If that is the case why are you so worried about what she does and says?
		
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The SNP are disruptive on Sturgeon's gratuitous narcissistic juvenile  instructions, so far as purely English & Welsh matters are concerned, which is not in the best interests of folk in England & Wales. 

There are enough problems in the world without British subjects being childishly difficult.


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## Judgemental (19 July 2016)

dibbin said:



			Those are all opinions. No informing necessary, it would appear. Patriotism, in particular, is wholly dependent on where you're standing.
		
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Patriotism means one does not try and infer with and or undermine our military capability. E.g Trident which is exactly what the SNP are doing and their wicked vote opposing Trident in the H of C last night, was a measure of their intent to damage the United Kingdom.


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## dibbin (19 July 2016)

Patriotism means pride in one's country. You can argue until you're blue in the face (and I suspect you will) but for many Scots, particularly those who support the SNP, that will always be Scotland and not the UK.


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## MotherOfChickens (19 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			Patriotism means one does not try and infer with and or undermine our military capability. E.g Trident which is exactly what the SNP are doing and their wicked vote opposing Trident in the H of C last night, was a measure of their intent to damage the United Kingdom.
		
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the SNP aren't saying that you can't have it. again, why can't it be elsewhere?


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## ester (19 July 2016)

Well yes, or maybe they just don't think there is a place for a armament.... 
I think you will find they were not the only MPs to vote against it, why is it so beyond the realms of possibility that they disagree with the existence of nuclear weapons at all, plenty of people do you know.


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## Judgemental (19 July 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			the SNP aren't saying that you can't have it. again, why can't it be elsewhere?
		
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I simply do not understand why.

What is wrong with Faslane?

Scotland receives a wack of money - billions as a result of the base.

Why do the SNP want it elsewhere? 

It is good to explain because there are millions of folk who think very badly of Sturgeon, the SNP and their policies as a result.

In effect therefore, they are not against a nuclear deterrent, so that ideology is not part of the thinking.

(My suspicions this is some whimsical notion that Sturgeon contrived at School rather like the anti-hunting arguments. Giving her some sort of platform to bounce off, rather than any tangible and meaningful practical contribution).


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## MotherOfChickens (19 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			I simply do not understand why.

.
		
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It doesn't matter that you don't understand why. One argument is that it s a big fat target-is that why you don't want it in the SW? With all the EU funding Cornwall will no longer be getting, perhaps they would like all the monies for it?


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## Judgemental (19 July 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			It doesn't matter that you don't understand why. One argument is that it s a big fat target-is that why you don't want it in the SW? With all the EU funding Cornwall will no longer be getting, perhaps they would like all the monies for it?
		
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I did wonder if that is what it was all about. If Faslane gets Nuked, we all get Nuked. We are a group of, poxy little islands 900 miles x 250 at best.

Aside from the fact there would be other Nukes, Plymouth being an obvious target etc remember Chernobyl and the Radiation Drift over the whole of the UK.

Don't worry about it.


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## MotherOfChickens (19 July 2016)

I'm not worried, its one argument, its certainly not what its all about (ie some are fundamentally against nuclear weapons).
 But the fact remains, if its so great and you want it-you can have it surely?


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## ester (19 July 2016)

No point in having it in the SW given the prevailing wind direction, essex maybe?


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## MotherOfChickens (19 July 2016)

ester said:



			No point in having it in the SW given the prevailing wind direction, essex maybe?
		
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true, I just thought JM might like them in the SW. What about Chatham?


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## Snuffles (19 July 2016)

I think being located at faslane is something to do with the actual geology, deep water port or something, Im sure I read it somewhere,and no where else suitable ? Obviously there are deepwater ports elsewhere, but I think they are used for commercial shipping so you couldnt have a nuclear base alongside tourist vessels etc. I stand to be corrected though


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## Goldenstar (19 July 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			the SNP aren't saying that you can't have it. again, why can't it be elsewhere?
		
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Because it's a effectively a fiord and that what you need to keep those submarines in .


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## ycbm (19 July 2016)

You are correct Snuffles. Faslane is on the Gareloch. It's a deep water tidal loch with direct access to the sea. It's pretty well uniquely suited to being a submarine base. I can tell you it was also great fun to fish for mackerel from a canoe when I was ten! And am I the only forum member who has gone underwater in a nuclear sub? Even if we did stay in the loch   ?  It's one of the most striking memories of my childhood.


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## MotherOfChickens (19 July 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Because it's a effectively a fiord and that what you need to keep those submarines in .
		
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I was joking about Chatham..


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## Goldenstar (19 July 2016)

ycbm said:



			You are correct Snuffles. Faslane is on the Gareloch. It's a deep water tidal loch with direct access to the sea. It's pretty well uniquely suited to being a submarine base. I can tell you it was also great fun to fish for mackerel from a canoe when I was ten! And am I the only forum member who has gone underwater in a nuclear sub? Even if we did stay in the loch   ?  It's one of the most striking memories of my childhood.
		
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Never been underwater but I have been show round one of the submarines they just voted to replace when she was commissioned .
They are absolutely huge when your up close and personal with one .


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## fburton (19 July 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Never been underwater but I have been show round one of the submarines they just voted to replace when she was commissioned .
They are absolutely huge when your up close and personal with one .
		
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I have been inside one of them. They may look huge on the outside, but they certainly aren't palatial on the inside. Quite the opposite of the Tardis, in fact.


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## Goldenstar (19 July 2016)

fburton said:



			I have been inside one of them. They may look huge on the outside, but they certainly aren't palatial on the inside. Quite the opposite of the Tardis, in fact.
		
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They are tiny were the crew live .
How anyone could stay in them for months and months is beyond me.
No daylight, no natural air all the air recycled with oxygen added but no smells taken out.
Yuk.


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## fburton (19 July 2016)

Assuming nuclear weapons have a positive effect on a country's security and world peace in general (I take it no one who is for Trident would take issue with that?), maybe Germany, a country in the Free West, should be encouraged and helped to join us in acquiring a Trident-like capability too. We could even share the costs and the benefits.

If they wouldn't want it, why not? Don't the same arguments and considerations apply to both our countries?

If having nuclear weapons gives us an advantage of some sort that we believe Germany _shouldn't_ have, what is the nature of that advantage given the stated mode of use of such weapons?


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## fburton (19 July 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			No daylight, no natural air all the air recycled with oxygen added but no smells taken out.
		
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I don't recall there being any particular unpleasant whiffs, but then the sub was in wet dock at the time. I'm sure they pass the air through charcoal filters (or similar) these days to remove odorants.

You're right about tiny quarters. I'm not particularly claustrophobic but would find being stuck inside for days on end tedious in the extreme.


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## Goldenstar (19 July 2016)

fburton said:



			I don't recall there being any particular unpleasant whiffs, but then the sub was in wet dock at the time. I'm sure they pass the air through charcoal filters (or similar) these days to remove odorants.

You're right about tiny quarters. I'm not particularly claustrophobic but would find being stuck inside for days on end tedious in the extreme.
		
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My brother served on one for years apparently they all stank of recycled air when they came back after a tour .
It's was a very particular smell and when you think they used to smoke on board at one time it must have been horrible .
My SIL has some great stories from their days at Faslane and some not so nice ones she had the misfortune to sound very English .


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## Snuffles (19 July 2016)

ybcm, I didnt know it was The Gareloch, we spent a week there many years ago ! I can remember seeing loads of jellyfish and and couldnt work out how they got there ! Didnt see the submarines though !


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## Alec Swan (19 July 2016)

fburton said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. , maybe Germany, a country in the Free West, should be encouraged and helped to join us in acquiring a Trident-like capability too. We could even share the costs and the benefits.

&#8230;&#8230;..
		
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You raise a pertinent point.  There's also a parallel point to be made;  With Britain's and America's Middle Eastern Meddling,  ostensibly to stabilise the supply and price of oil,  just how many EU members have put in any meaningful or worthwhile effort?  ALL of the EU has benefited from sustainable oil prices,  and have done so by the efforts of others.

If the above's accepted,  we also have to wonder what sort of situation would Germany get in to and one which would need nuclear support.  I also wonder if Germany (and I'm only using them as an example) would expect to make use of our nuclear capability,  whilst not in any way contributing to the cost.  Would they need a nuclear defence programme?  Of course they wouldn't,  they've done nothing to piss off the ME but have benefited and substantially,  from the fact that we have!

Alec.


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## ycbm (19 July 2016)

Snuffles said:



			ybcm, I didnt know it was The Gareloch, we spent a week there many years ago ! I can remember seeing loads of jellyfish and and couldnt work out how they got there ! Didnt see the submarines though !
		
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The jellyfish were amazing!  I still have nightmares about them.  After every particularly high tide the most enormous (to a ten year old) ones were always left stranded on the beach.


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## Judgemental (19 July 2016)

Sturgeon now has no alternative but to resign. I shall not indulge in any schadenfreude, other than to say she has failed concerning Europe, Independence and Trident. 

'Three strikes and you are out'.

"STURGEON'S EUROPE DREAM IN TATTERS: Scotland 'WILL' have to leave EU with rest of UK

NICOLA Sturgeons hopes of Scotland being able to veto the historic EU referendum vote for Brexit are lying in tatters.

By DAVID MADDOX, EXCLUSIVE
PUBLISHED: 21:01, Tue, Jul 19, 2016 | UPDATED: 22:28, Tue, Jul 19, 2016

The Daily Express has learnt that a meeting between Scottish Ukip MEP David Coburn and European Parliament President Martin Schulz has confirmed that Scotland will have to leave the EU with the rest of the UK.

It came after the SNP First Minister had held meetings with senior EU figures to try to get a separate Scottish deal from the Brexit talks after a majority of Scots voted to Remain.

And Ms Sturgeon also claimed over the weekend that Scotland is in a strong position to block Brexit.

But it is understood that during the meeting with Mr Coburn, Mr Schulz confirmed that Scotland cannot remain a member of the EU if the UK leaves, putting an end to the halfway compromise suggested by the SNP.

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He also said that he met Ms Sturgeon as a matter of courtesy and because it is one of his duties to meet regional government heads.

He is also said to have confirmed Scotland would have to apply as a new member of the EU if it becomes an independent state, but this would have to happen after the UK leaves.

The meeting has put an end to claims being made that Scotland could veto the UKs departure after a clear majority of voters backed Brexit.

Sturgeon and May
Nicola Sturgeon recently met with Theresa May to discuss Scotland's future
It also appears to end speculation Scotland could leave the UK and remain part of the EU before Brexit is achieved.

An EU source has also suggested that as a new member Scotland would be asked to join the Euro and Schengen free travel area, not get its share of the UKs current rebate and would have to share its fishing waters with other EU members which would otherwise be liberated by Brexit.

Mr Coburn told the Daily Express: President Schulz is no more interested in Balkanising the UK than Great Britain is in Balkanising the EU  especially Spain and the Baltic States.

He said: Scotland voted to Remain in the EU voting as the United Kingdom. We knew there would be a pan UK vote on Europe when we voted No in the [2014 independence] referendum. 

Martin Schulz
A spokesperson for Mr Schulz has said it is not practice to comment on meetings with MEPs
More Scots voted to Remain in the UK than voted to Remain in the EU and uncomfortably for the First Minister a third of SNP members voted to Leave the EU.

He added: She has no mandate for a second independence referendum and the SNP would undoubtedly lose.

A spokeswoman for Mr Schulz said that it was not practice to comment on meetings with MEPs.

However, she said: I can confirm the meeting [with the Scottish First Minister] was a matter of courtesy and it is his duty to meet with heads of regional governments from member states.

Theresa May
Theresa May appeared to close the door on a Scottish option and second independence referendum
After her meeting with Ms Sturgeon in Scotland, new Prime Minister Theresa May also appeared to close the door on a Scottish option and a second independence referendum".


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## Buddy'sMum (20 July 2016)

Just when you think the Express can't possibly sink any lower, they go and publish a tale from the political mastermind David Coburn MEP


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## Fellewell (20 July 2016)

There used to be a shop in Lochinver that served the best steak sandwich in the world. Driving through the Highlands to get there made this a truly heavenly experience.

The SNP want independence, they always have and NS will do whatever it takes to further that cause. Including an ill-advised trip to Brussels. She does have advisors and I'm sure they too were instrumental in her apparent about-turn on the repeal vote.

Was it all due to political posturing or were the Scottish Government backed into a corner by LACS? LACS were making a lot of noise in Scotland and went into overdrive as soon as repeal was on the table. We all know how manipulative they can be and maybe she just couldn't afford the distraction.

I always enjoy your posts J-M but all this wavering between NS's attractive pert bottom and apparent frightfulness is making you sound like a spurned suitor ;-)


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## Judgemental (20 July 2016)

Fellewell said:



			There used to be a shop in Lochinver that served the best steak sandwich in the world. Driving through the Highlands to get there made this a truly heavenly experience.

The SNP want independence, they always have and NS will do whatever it takes to further that cause. Including an ill-advised trip to Brussels. She does have advisors and I'm sure they too were instrumental in her apparent about-turn on the repeal vote.

Was it all due to political posturing or were the Scottish Government backed into a corner by LACS? LACS were making a lot of noise in Scotland and went into overdrive as soon as repeal was on the table. We all know how manipulative they can be and maybe she just couldn't afford the distraction.

I always enjoy your posts J-M but all this wavering between NS's attractive pert bottom and apparent frightfulness is making you sound like a spurned suitor ;-)
		
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Fellewell that made me burst out laughing, to the extent the OH asked what was so funny. I had to tell a little white lie because even she does not know the I am JM.

Yes well the Pert bottom, something of a distraction. I prefer a nice tweed covering the ladies of Scotland, even if it is appropriately tailored.

You are probably right about LACS, but it goes to show how poor Sturgeon is in her very youthful judgment, because it's all going to come back and haunt her between now and the election of 2020.

That's assuming she does not resign very soon because of her serial failures.


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## Judgemental (21 July 2016)

Yes yes yes.

"NO Brexit veto: Top legal chief DESTROYS Sturgeon & says UK WON'T be held to ransom

BRITAIN'S top law officer (The Attorney General Jeremy Wright)  has destroyed the EU hopes of the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon by saying she will NOT get a veto on Brexit

By TOM MARTIN
PUBLISHED: 13:03, Thu, Jul 21, 2016 | UPDATED: 16:39, Thu, Jul 21, 2016*

Next: English Votes for English Laws

Followed by: Full Repeal of Hunting Acting 2004

It is really could happen

dibben suggest you tell your friend 'Nicola' to quit whilst she is ahead.


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## dibbin (22 July 2016)

Suggest you stop getting your "facts" from the Mail and the Express.


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## Judgemental (26 July 2016)

We really cannot tolerate this total lack of patriotism. 

Samuel Johnson said:

"He that wishes to see his country robbed of its rights cannot be a patriot" 

Plainly he did not anticipate females, especially those with inappropriately tight skirts, that leave nothing to the imagination so far as underwear is concerned. No doubt a means of attracting a certain type of supporter. 

I believe I saw an SNP lady sitting in the House of Commons wearing an ankle adornment/ 

Nicola Sturgeon's bid to BLACKMAIL UK with her FIVE demands to keep Scotland linked to EU

NICOLA Sturgeon was today accused of hiding behind the Brexit vote to stage another bid for independence.

By TOM MARTIN, SCOTTISH POLITICAL EDITOR
PUBLISHED: 11:03, Mon, Jul 25, 2016 | UPDATED: 17:18, Mon, Jul 25, 2016

Scotlands fishermen slap down Sturgeons dream to re-join EU

SCOTTISH fishermen have warned First Minister Nicola Sturgeon not to barter away the UKs fishing rights in order to maintain trade and economic ties with Europe.

By ALEX HICKSON
PUBLISHED: 08:01, Mon, Jul 25, 2016 | UPDATED: 08:47, Mon, Jul 25, 2016

Sturgeon will BREAK UP Britain if unionists fail to act on Europe

NICOLA Sturgeon is STILL searching for ways to break from the UK despite being warned her ideas are "impracticable".

By ZOIE O'BRIEN
PUBLISHED: 14:05, Mon, Jul 25, 2016 | UPDATED: 14:56, Mon, Jul 25, 2016

'Stop this nonsense' Ukip MEP blasts Nicola Sturgeon & speaks for Scots who DID vote LEAVE

SCOTTISH Ukip leader David Coburn has blasted Nicola Sturgeon for wasting her time by desperately arguing against Brexit as he stood up for the 40 per cent of people in Scotland who ACTUALLY voted to break away from the crumbling EU.

By REBECCA PERRING

98 per cent say NO to EU deal: Forget talks with Brussels and quit NOW, urges new poll

A NEW Daily Express online poll has revealed that 98 per cent of respondents - 3,548 people - want the historic Brexit vote to be enacted now instead of Britain being embroiled in months or years of talks with Brussels bureaucrats.

By DAVID MADDOX


'I'll call a second independence referendum if Brexit weakens Scotland': Nicola Sturgeon issues warning as she condemns No.10 for failing to have a plan for quitting EU 
 Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon speaking at the conference of the Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR) think tank in Edinburgh where she says that she is "determined" to find options to protect Scotland's key interests during EU negotiations. PRESS ASSOCIATION Photo. Picture date: Monday July 25, 2016. See PA story POLITICS EU. Photo credit should read: Andrew Milligan/PA Wire
Nicola Sturgeon also criticised what she described as a 'lack of leadership' from the UK Government and those leading the campaign to leave the EU in the days after the Brexit vote.


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## hackneylass2 (26 July 2016)

'No but if she is really interested in Scotland, instead of the overly tight fitting pencil line skirts on her derriere, leaving nothing to the imagination, a nice Tweed would be far more appropriate.

Or indeed a pleated Kilt

Short heeled brogues etc.

If you are high profile it is easy to support a primary industry making cloth for which Scotland is famous, by wearing the fabric.

When I see that, we will know there is a measure of sincerity in NS' 


Oh dear Judgemental, I do believe you are the reincarnation of Surtees


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## popsdosh (26 July 2016)

As I said previously the UK vote for Brexit was all NSs Christmases rolled into one. 

It was interesting when they asked some voters who voted for independence the first time how they would vote now. Those that voted to leave the EU said they would not support another independence vote if it was called just to stay in the EU. The point was also made that there is a lot of double standards wishing to leave what they have in the UK for even more tighter control from europe. 
People of Scotland be very careful that you are not being led a certain way and fed bulls**t just to achieve somebodies political ambitions.  Sometimes it takes somebody looking from outside to see the truth.


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## ester (26 July 2016)

You do know people are permitted to wear whatever they like, skirts and ankle adornments! Did you know that girls are even allowed to wear trousers these days. 

do you not think that flagging that up as a supposed issue rather detracts from the point? and just makes you look like a knob quite frankly, but then you will insist on repeatedly quoting the daily express so I guess that shouldn't be a surprise.

It's nice that we have moved on from Nancy Astor wearing the same thing on a daily basis so that people stopped talking about what she wore...., like that was in anyway relevant to the issues.


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## Judgemental (26 July 2016)

ester said:



			You do know people are permitted to wear whatever they like, skirts and ankle adornments! Did you know that girls are even allowed to wear trousers these days. 

do you not think that flagging that up as a supposed issue rather detracts from the point? and just makes you look like a knob quite frankly, but then you will insist on repeatedly quoting the daily express so I guess that shouldn't be a surprise.

It's nice that we have moved on from Nancy Astor wearing the same thing on a daily basis so that people stopped talking about what she wore...., like that was in anyway relevant to the issues.
		
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Well perhaps we need to turn our attention to other issues.

The question of these people from Scotland visiting London Brothels, Massage Parlors and Madams, whilst little wifey is tucked away in Scotland.

Which is synonymous with the EU 'routine' the convenience of French, German and Italian wifey being miles away whilst their spouses indulge in the Fleshpots of Brussels.

Sturgeon, 'you aint seen and heard nothing yet'


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## Alec Swan (26 July 2016)

J_m,  now you've completely lost me with irrelevance,  perhaps I'm just being thick! 

Alec.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (26 July 2016)

i can't actually believe the OP is still waffling on, I mean seriously trying to make your point with daily fail polls and express writings? Really? How honestly very very sad, you are now trying to increase your little bit of fame by stating that Scottish people visit brothels. How is this a mature argument? It's just immature and provoking, Surely you have pulled your head out of your ar$e at least once to look at a world globe and realise that England doesn't cover the whole thing. Making prostitution synonymous with trade agreements really shows your complete lack of understanding.

Honestly it's getting old and you are really just making a bigger t%@t out of yourself than normal. Just goes to show some people do not have a life.


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## Buddy'sMum (26 July 2016)

ester said:



			You do know people are permitted to wear whatever they like, skirts and ankle adornments! Did you know that girls are even allowed to wear trousers these days.
		
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Well I was absolutely horrified to see our new PM wearing a pair of red patent heels when she visited Bute House  Doesn't she care at all about all those poor short-heeled brogue makers who'll be going out of business now?!


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## Alec Swan (26 July 2016)

B_M,  you've forgotten the tweed industry.  They need support too,  remember what Wilson did for Gannex? 

Alec.


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## Judgemental (26 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			J_m,  now you've completely lost me with irrelevance,  perhaps I'm just being thick! 

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Oh Alec you are such an inscrutable card of total innocence. Long chuckle.

When the cats at home, the mice will 'play away'. 

Och I, wee dalliances with the ladies and flesh pots of London.

Shades of John Profumo and Christine Keeler.

So many temptations.

Wify or spouse tucked miles away. Blackbestie seems to think we rely exclusively on the Express and Mail. 

We have other sources that fuel the rumor mill close to the seat of power.

Of course if one is going to be troublesome, one's personal conduct is monitored in the great wen.

You and I both know one never crosses hunting folk and expect to get away with it.

May be Blackbestie knows more than we do and is into damage limitation and or cover up?


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## Buddy'sMum (26 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			'Stop this nonsense' Ukip MEP blasts Nicola Sturgeon & speaks for Scots who DID vote LEAVE

SCOTTISH Ukip leader David Coburn has blasted Nicola Sturgeon for &#8220;wasting her time&#8221; by desperately arguing against Brexit as he stood up for the 40 per cent of people in Scotland who ACTUALLY voted to break away from the crumbling EU.
		
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Just to put this into perspective - UKIP in Scotland currently has a grand total of about 600 members and falling steadily. Not a single MSP. And Mr Coburn is a bampot (OP, with your vast knowledge of Glasgow patter I'm sure you'll need no explanation).


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## Roasted Chestnuts (26 July 2016)

No judgemental I'm afraid you are wrong,  again might I add, but feel free to keep making up your conspiracy theories based on what people are wearing.

Well considering you keep posting links how else am I aware of what your sources are.  If one crosses hunting folk??? Oh please I actually just spat tea across my living room at such a pompous and assuming statement  I hunted and if my horse wasn't elderly I would be continuing to drag hunt. You lost the vote, deal with it, just as we have had to deal with the lot of you down south forcing us to comply when we don't want to, as clearly shown by the voting. 

Honestly you are so deluded someone should be committing you


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## ester (26 July 2016)

So the way I read it is that if only NS had stuck to her tartan and low-heeled brogues the scots wouldn't all be in brothels?


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## Buddy'sMum (26 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			B_M,  you've forgotten the tweed industry.  They need support too,  remember what Wilson did for Gannex? 

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Wilson was a bit before my time, Alec  but absolutely, we shouldn't forget the Harris tweed industry (which is doing just fine btw, unlike Gannex). Harris tweed horse onesie, anyone?
http://www.scotlandnow.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/worlds-first-harris-tweed-suit-7558736


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## dibbin (26 July 2016)

ester said:



			So the way I read it is that if only NS had stuck to her tartan and low-heeled brogues the scots wouldn't all be in brothels?
		
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I suspect JM's got a schoolmistress fetish, hence the obsession with tweed and sensible shoes.


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## Alec Swan (26 July 2016)

dibbin said:



			I suspect JM's got a schoolmistress fetish, hence the obsession with tweed and sensible shoes.
		
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I suspect that stout calves could be a prerequisite too! 

Alec.


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## Judgemental (26 July 2016)

dibbin said:



			I suspect JM's got a schoolmistress fetish, hence the obsession with tweed and sensible shoes.
		
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I would not wish to take too much credit for the positive of this thread, namely the promotion of Tweed, as for Brogues, well let us go the whole way, with 30 denier stockings along with a stout stick. Not to mention vast quantities of Kiwi polish for the Brogues

Along with the Tartan

I have long since forgotten the accepted ratio of visitor numbers to advertising revenue but the current visitor count is 12,447. I dare say the Editor of Horse and Hound will not be disappointed. 

So long as Sturgeon and the SNP are in post and there is no amelioration, so far as EVEL is concerned and the Hunting Act 2004, to bring it into line and mirror the Act in Scotland, I will waffle and waffle.


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## Judgemental (26 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			I suspect that stout calves could be a prerequisite too! 

Alec.
		
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The hem of the skirt well below the knee too.

Perhaps in inclement weather an old Gannex might be found with a jaunty trilby - LOL

Possibly to give a final finish, smoking one of those ladies long stemmed pipes - Exmoor Hunt was a very nice mixture but I suspect no more. Went rather well in a Falcon and didn't leave too much tar in the reservoir.


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## Alec Swan (26 July 2016)

Dear God,  now J_m seems to be displaying a preference for girls who smoke a pipe.  Is there no depth of depravity to which he won't sink?

I worry for you,  Judgemental. 

Alec.


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## dibbin (26 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Dear God,  now J_m seems to be displaying a preference for girls who smoke a pipe.  Is there no depth of depravity to which he won't sink?

I worry for you,  Judgemental. 

Alec.
		
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I reckon Miss Trunchbull from Matilda would be right up his street.


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## Neversaydie (26 July 2016)

Does the OP have a grudge against the Scots? Or is it jealousy over our sense of fabulous fashion? Or is it one of those love/hate things where the Op has a massive hard on for Mrs Sturgeon and can't admit it? Very odd thread regardless


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## Buddy'sMum (26 July 2016)

Neversaydie said:



			Or is it one of those love/hate things where the Op has a massive hard on for Mrs Sturgeon and can't admit it?
		
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:lol:


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## Countryman (26 July 2016)

Neversaydie said:



			Does the OP have a grudge against the Scots?

Click to expand...

I think JM just enjoys being controversial, no matter what the subject.


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## Alec Swan (26 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			:lol:
		
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Agreed!  Neversaydie,  you should be ashamed of yourself! 

Alec.


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## hackneylass2 (28 July 2016)

' I suspect that stout calves could be a prerequisite too! '


Crikey, we are going down a whole new road here!  Lock up your young beasties, just in case


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## Judgemental (28 July 2016)

One is simply a bystander in the increasing controversy surrounding Sturgeon. But the headlines are endless and whilst there are those on this forum, who decry the Daily Express. Nevertheless there is 'no smoke without fire' and the latest this morning, is remarkable. I had given up posting or following over the last few days but there is clearly an issue.

"Sturgeon kicked in teeth as SNP's guardian plan for Scots ruled UNLAWFUL by Supreme Court

NICOLA Sturgeon has been left humiliated after the UK's highest court ruled the Scottish government's "named person" scheme is unlawful.

By TOM PARFITT
PUBLISHED: 09:50, Thu, Jul 28, 2016 | UPDATED: 10:28, Thu, Jul 28, 2016"


I really feel it would be in the interests of this young lady to quietly resign.

One Scots poster has said, "The truth about this woman, is in her aggressive arrogant attitude,same as Salmond. Both are giving Scotland a bad name !!"


That said, clearly she and the SNP by default gave the Tweed industry a kick in the teeth, when they contrived to sabotage the amendment to the Hunting Act 2004.

Let's be honest about this, the hunting and equine industries are one of the fundamental buyers of tweed jackets and clothing. Indeed it is generally expected wear in many show classes, notwithstanding in the hunting field.

Indeed the Wynstay commissioned their own tweed instead of pink or red coats because they perceived the latter to be provocative.

Oh yes, let's be frank, whisky and hunting...................need I say more.

In the interest of Scotland, a place I always enjoy visiting and socialising with various and sundry, it is time Sturgeon was evicted from BUTE House.

Ha BUTE, there's an irony.


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## ozpoz (28 July 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Oh, our nation is united. Against eejits like you.
		
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   Actually, true, very true.


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## Dobiegirl (28 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			One is simply a bystander in the increasing controversy surrounding Sturgeon. But the headlines are endless and whilst there are those on this forum, who decry the Daily Express. Nevertheless there is 'no smoke without fire' and the latest this morning, is remarkable. I had given up posting or following over the last few days but there is clearly an issue.

"Sturgeon kicked in teeth as SNP's guardian plan for Scots ruled UNLAWFUL by Supreme Court

NICOLA Sturgeon has been left humiliated after the UK's highest court ruled the Scottish government's "named person" scheme is unlawful.

By TOM PARFITT
PUBLISHED: 09:50, Thu, Jul 28, 2016 | UPDATED: 10:28, Thu, Jul 28, 2016"


I really feel it would be in the interests of this young lady to quietly resign.

One Scots poster has said, "The truth about this woman, is in her aggressive arrogant attitude,same as Salmond. Both are giving Scotland a bad name !!"


That said, clearly she and the SNP by default gave the Tweed industry a kick in the teeth, when they contrived to sabotage the amendment to the Hunting Act 2004.

Let's be honest about this, the hunting and equine industries are one of the fundamental buyers of tweed jackets and clothing. Indeed it is generally expected wear in many show classes, notwithstanding in the hunting field.

Indeed the Wynstay commissioned their own tweed instead of pink or red coats because they perceived the latter to be provocative.

Oh yes, let's be frank, whisky and hunting...................need I say more.

In the interest of Scotland, a place I always enjoy visiting and socialising with various and sundry, it is time Sturgeon was evicted from BUTE House.

Ha BUTE, there's an irony.
		
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Having read this post I have one question, what on earth are you on, the reason I ask is I want to make sure I never take it


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## MotherOfChickens (28 July 2016)

Dobiegirl said:



			Having read this post I have one question, what on earth are you on, the reason I ask is I want to make sure I never take it
		
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oh I dunno, there's a lot to be said for being that removed from reality.


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## Judgemental (29 July 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			oh I dunno, there's a lot to be said for being that removed from reality.
		
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That certainly hit the nail on the head, anybody who wants independence for Scotland and remain in the EU. 

I feel so sorry for the majority of Scots, it is all so so sad. As for their leader in Scotland, well one cannot help feeling sorry for her too, obviously there are deficiencies that are painful.


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## Neversaydie (29 July 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Agreed!  Neversaydie,  you should be ashamed of yourself! 

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Why? Is it not a valid observation?  I mean I have just looked through 8 pages of posts full of minute details about a person that I would only notice myself if I was fixated on someone. So I stand by my observations which Everytime the OP post are just backed up more and more.


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## Judgemental (31 July 2016)

Neversaydie said:



			Why? Is it not a valid observation?  I mean I have just looked through 8 pages of posts full of minute details about a person that I would only notice myself if I was fixated on someone. So I stand by my observations which Everytime the OP post are just backed up more and more.  

Click to expand...

The SNP lied and cheated to the House of Commons concerning English Votes for English Laws and mislead the House concerning their intentions so far as the proposed amendments to the Hunting Act 2004.

As far as I am concerned we have something no better than Unpatriotic 5th Columnists in our midst. God forbid we were at war, I for one would demand they are all rounded up and interned.

If you and others do not like what I am saying, I challenge you to complain to the Moderator.

Have a look at the exchange last week between Robertson and the Prime Minister.

Theresa May brutally slaps down SNP pleas to remain in EU at first PMQs

THERESA MAY ruthlessly ridiculed the Scottish National Party yesterday as she led her first Prime Minister&#8217;s Questions.

By LIZZIE STROMME


http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...raffic.outbrain&utm_campaign=traffic.outbrain


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## Neversaydie (31 July 2016)

LOL  Why in the hell would I complain to the moderator about someone making a first class T¥@t of themselves on an open forum. I mean there has to be one completely deluded, toilet paper reading, soapbox artist on a forum to provide us with our daily point and laugh  and you sir are it. It's been very amusing I have to say. I'm not as well read as some of the people who are posting so perhaps that's why even as a Scot I'm not really bothered by the obvious barbs, I'm not a political animal either but I have to say it's been rather amusing none the less


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## dibbin (31 July 2016)

Judgemental said:



			As far as I am concerned we have something no better than Unpatriotic 5th Columnists in our midst. God forbid we were at war, I for one would demand they are all rounded up and interned.
		
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That's because you're an unreconstructed tory and think anyone who disagrees with you needs to be muzzled and/or locked up.



Judgemental said:



			I challenge you to complain to the Moderator.
		
Click to expand...

Anyone else got visions of JM slapping them in the face with a glove?


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## Judgemental (31 July 2016)

Neversaydie said:



			LOL  Why in the hell would I complain to the moderator about someone making a first class T¥@t of themselves on an open forum. I mean there has to be one completely deluded, toilet paper reading, soapbox artist on a forum to provide us with our daily point and laugh  and you sir are it. It's been very amusing I have to say. I'm not as well read as some of the people who are posting so perhaps that's why even as a Scot I'm not really bothered by the obvious barbs, I'm not a political animal either but I have to say it's been rather amusing none the less 

Click to expand...

I will say exactly what I said to dibbin on 17 July and highlight that you have only been a member since May 2016.

From what I have seen of the SNP, good manners are not one of their strong points, oikishness springs to mind.

"The first point is that on this forum, particularly we never insult one another, it is consider"d very bad manners.

You are in Scotland, so I suppose we have to make allowances.

As I have said twice, the reason that I am for one, running with this subject is because of Sturgeon's blatant disregard for an agreement to stand aside from English votes for English laws, in particular the Hunting Act 2004.

1. The proposed changes under the Statutory Instrument, one of my passions, were to mirror exactly the Act in Scotland, therefore any changes in England and Wales made no difference whatsoever to Scotland.

2. David Cameron gave an undertaking to his supporters that he would amend the act accordingly. But the wee lass from Sky thought she would be clever and tell the SNP in the H of C how to vote, so the debate had to be pulled.

3. Where I come from in the West Country, the big herds of Red Deer are a major problem an it requires a full pack of hounds to effectively move them on. Off the small fields of grazing that are so important to not only all the livestock farmers but my own land for my horses etc. Notwithstanding all the hayledge that is made. Along with timber that damage such as Larch Pole Pine, much favored in Scotland.

4. The proposed changes would have facilitated the necessary arrangements.

5. Also by way of example, in the City if you Welch on an agreement, you are finished, persona non-grata. Your name is not taken on the commodity, stock and shipping exchanges etc. If the so called first minister cannot honor her agreement and her clear statement before the general election and during the campaign, the SNP would not become involved in any debate in the H of C concerning the 2004 Hunting Act. Then she is not a fit and proper person to occupy the position.

If she is capable of welching on a simple agreement not to participate in a debate, I dread to think what she might do in the unlikely event she took control of Scotland and away from the UK. I have the greatest doubts about her integrity".

In addition since that post there has been a litany of critical comments in the press generally concerning all things SNP, who are getting a very bad name for Scotland


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## Neversaydie (31 July 2016)

Well my membership means nothing, not as if I was born in May after all, your obsession with Mrs Sturgeon really is quite disturbing, I've dislike the last 5 prime ministers but heaven forbid I should procrastinate on what they wear, means I actually gave a fudge about them really. Talking about welching on deals?? Really using this to defend politics? Sweet heart let me educate you, this is at the heart of politics, how to promise something to get the vote then back out once you have it, every High ranking politician does it, not a surprise. As I said I'm not politically minded and I know these freely shown protocols, only the politically immature expect a politician to really keep their word. As for being Scottish let me tell you it isn't big on my agenda of chest beating, so when an uber-conservative pot-shotter tries to use it to get under my skin I'm afraid you're clutching at straws. 

Im off now, JM's procrastination is scarily moving in the direction of Mrs S's knicker line and that is something I never want to contemplate 

The hard on comment still stands though


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## Judgemental (31 July 2016)

Neversaydie said:



			Well my membership means nothing, not as if I was born in May after all, your obsession with Mrs Sturgeon really is quite disturbing,
		
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Strurgeon's obsession with Trident is very very disturbing

Sturgeon's obsession with Independence is very disturbing

Sturgeon's obsession with remaining in the EU is very disturbing

Sturgeon's obsession with undermining the UK government is very disturbing

Sturgeon's obsession with managing children on behalf of their parents is very disturbing

Sturgeon's obsession with wanting Scottish votes for English laws is very disturbing

Sturgeon's obsession with wanting to interfere with the Hunting Act 2004 is very disturbing


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## Alec Swan (1 August 2016)

J_m old chum,  Mrs Sturgeon is a politician,  what did you expect?  Did you expect someone with any level of integrity?  Did you expect to find a person of their word?  Did you honestly expect her to be any different from the rest?  Few others did or do.

Alec.


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## Judgemental (1 August 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			J_m old chum,  Mrs Sturgeon is a politician,  what did you expect?  Did you expect someone with any level of integrity?  Did you expect to find a person of their word?  Did you honestly expect her to be any different from the rest?  Few others did or do.

Alec.
		
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Alec, you are right at that time a few weeks ago, that was then but this is now. I.e we have a new government and I believe Mrs May and her various appointments are straight. 

Perhaps in my naive world of coming down with the last of the sweet innocence's

We want to see a straight government in Scotland and I am told the Scots are not happy about the way things are being run, especially the question of English Votes for English Laws.

I omitted one of Sturgeon's obsessions.

The obsession, so I am told by my Estate Agency sources in Scotland of wanting to sequester land and large agricultural and sporting estates by stealth. For ultimate ownership by the State. In my world that's Communism.

If that notion catches popular opinion in Scotland, it will spread south of the border, if she is allowed to get away with the plot.

I don't care what all these Scots acolytes of the SNP say on this forum, Sturgeon is a dangerous fanatic.


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## Goldenstar (1 August 2016)

Well I am in total agreement that NS's plans for the children of Scotland was the most creepy idiocy I have heard in a long time in a world filled with creepy and idiotic things .
It's a big heads up for the direction of travel in SNP policy, top heavy control of the population by the state .
Very very scary for those parents unfortunate enough to live in Scotland .
Happily the law got in the way of that nasty plan .


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## Judgemental (1 August 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Well I am in total agreement that NS's plans for the children of Scotland was the most creepy idiocy I have heard in a long time in a world filled with creepy and idiotic things .
It's a big heads up for the direction of travel in SNP policy, top heavy control of the population by the state .
Very very scary for those parents unfortunate enough to live in Scotland .
Happily the law got in the way of that nasty plan .
		
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Exactly Goldenstar, I and my OH were aghast at the notion. If we lived in Scotland we were speculating as to how our (now grown up) children would have handled their handler. 

First they would have had to had make friends with sundry terriers, who if so instructed might not have been too friendly, that would be the first hurdle, then the handler would have been invited to help with the mucking out along with tack cleaning. That's assuming they could find any of them in the first place! 

What if the handler was an Anti, that would have been amusing probably have found something unmentionable in their vehicle.

No but seriously, everybody has to wake up to the very very dangerous people who are trying to control Scotland.


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## dibbin (1 August 2016)

Judgemental said:



			No but seriously, everybody has to wake up to the very very dangerous people who are trying to control Scotland.
		
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... you mean the Scots?


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## Alec Swan (1 August 2016)

dibbin said:



			... you mean the Scots?
		
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Would that be a disingenuous response considering that as a nation,  the Scots really are canny?

Sometimes,  being told what we'd like to hear may not be in our (your) best interest.

Alec.


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## Goldenstar (1 August 2016)

dibbin said:



			... you mean the Scots?
		
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No the people who control Scotland through the elctoral system are the people living in Scotland .
Being a Scot is not relevant .


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## dibbin (1 August 2016)

Sorry, should have known better than to be anything other than completely crystal clear on this thread  I just wondered if the "very dangerous people" that JM was warning us all against were those entered on the electoral roll of Scotland, or just the SNP. Or just anyone who doesn't agree with JM, I'm not completely certain how one qualifies as "very dangerous".


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## Goldenstar (1 August 2016)

dibbin said:



			Sorry, should have known better than to be anything other than completely crystal clear on this thread  I just wondered if the "very dangerous people" that JM was warning us all against were those entered on the electoral roll of Scotland, or just the SNP. Or just anyone who doesn't agree with JM, I'm not completely certain how one qualifies as "very dangerous".
		
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Well thinking that it's the right of the state to appoint a unrelated third party to interfere in the relationships between parents and children IMO qualifies you as a dangerous person .
So that's the SNP in the frame .
I am also really curious about who would wish to be one of these third parties and why .
It's seems a nasty position to be in .


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## dibbin (1 August 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Well thinking that it's the right of the state to appoint a unrelated third party to interfere in the relationships between parents and children IMO qualifies you as a dangerous person .
So that's the SNP in the frame .
I am also really curious about who would wish to be one of these third parties and why .
It's seems a nasty position to be in .
		
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To be honest the whole concept of the named person scheme is hideous and I don't know anyone who disagrees with that, Scot or otherwise. I can understand what they're trying to achieve but I don't think that's the way to do it.


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## Buddy'sMum (1 August 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Well thinking that it's the right of the state to appoint a unrelated third party to interfere in the relationships between parents and children IMO qualifies you as a dangerous person .
So that's the SNP in the frame .
I am also really curious about who would wish to be one of these third parties and why .
It's seems a nasty position to be in .
		
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The Children and Young People Act  was passed in the Scottish Parliament by 103 votes to nil, so also had the support of Labour, Lib Dem and Green MSPs. And it doesn't look like the named person scheme is actually going away.

Genuine musing - if the scheme is really so awful, why does it have the support of:
Aberlour Childcare Trust
Action for Children
Alliance for Children&#8217;s Rights
Barnardos
Children 1st
Children in Scotland
One Parent Families Scotland
Quarriers
Royal College of Nursing
Scottish Alliance for Children&#8217;s Rights
Scottish Childminding Association
Scottish Police Federation
Scottish Secondary Teachers Association


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## Goldenstar (1 August 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			The Children and Young People Act  was passed in the Scottish Parliament by 103 votes to nil, so also had the support of Labour, Lib Dem and Green MSPs. And it doesn't look like the named person scheme is actually going away.

Genuine musing - if the scheme is really so awful, why does it have the support of:
Aberlour Childcare Trust
Action for Children
Alliance for Children&#8217;s Rights
Barnardos
Children 1st
Children in Scotland
One Parent Families Scotland
Quarriers
Royal College of Nursing
Scottish Alliance for Children&#8217;s Rights
Scottish Childminding Association
Scottish Police Federation
Scottish Secondary Teachers Association
		
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It's going away in the form it's in .
The Supreme Court ruled it was unlawful.
It's bad idea because it imposes on perfectly competent parents a system that interferes in their rights to parent their child as they wish .
The state sought to foist a busybody into that family with no thought as to if the parents wish it .
Most parents can bring up their kids perfectly well without the state meddling .


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## Judgemental (1 August 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			It's going away in the form it's in .
The Supreme Court ruled it was unlawful.
It's bad idea because it imposes on perfectly competent parents a system that interferes in their rights to parent their child as they wish .
The state sought to foist a busybody into that family with no thought as to if the parents wish it .
Most parents can bring up their kids perfectly well without the state meddling .
		
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Quite and that busybody will be a recruiting officer for the SNP, as all the necessary papers are completed over tea and Dundee cake - of course, a tick box form will be surreptitiously slipped across the table to the child, to become a junior member of the SNP. 

With promises that if they are a member, they can go to the SNP's jolly camp in the summer on the loch, where the Frau Fuehrer will visit and indoctrinate the children, with her version of MacKampf.  Where the children can practice their Heil Fives with the 'Frau Fuehrer'.  

This whole abominable scheme is reminiscence of that which is found in Mein Kampf!


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## Judgemental (1 August 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			It's going away in the form it's in .
The Supreme Court ruled it was unlawful.
It's bad idea because it imposes on perfectly competent parents a system that interferes in their rights to parent their child as they wish .
The state sought to foist a busybody into that family with no thought as to if the parents wish it .
Most parents can bring up their kids perfectly well without the state meddling .
		
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Duplicate deleted


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## Buddy'sMum (1 August 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			It's going away in the form it's in .
The Supreme Court ruled it was unlawful.
It's bad idea because it imposes on perfectly competent parents a system that interferes in their rights to parent their child as they wish .
The state sought to foist a busybody into that family with no thought as to if the parents wish it .
Most parents can bring up their kids perfectly well without the state meddling .
		
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The Supreme Court ruled * parts of it* were unlawful while commenting that the aim of the scheme was "unquestionably legitimate and benign". The Scottish government is holding talks with relevant parties to rework the parts considered by the Supreme Court to be unlawful but it has confirmed that the policy will still be implemented once those changes have been made.

Again, if it's so heinous, why does it have the support of the leading child welfare bodies and associations in Scotland?


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## MotherOfChickens (1 August 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			The Supreme Court ruled * parts of it* were unlawful while commenting that the aim of the scheme was "unquestionably legitimate and benign". The Scottish government is holding talks with relevant parties to rework the parts considered by the Supreme Court to be unlawful but it has confirmed that the policy will still be implemented once those changes have been made.

Again, if it's so heinous, why does it have the support of the leading child welfare bodies and associations in Scotland?
		
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now now, don't let the truth stand in the way of a good story  

I was against it in principle as well when I heard about it, although I've yet to find a political party that I agree with on everything. A pilot of this scheme has been running in the Highlands for ten years I think? Spokesman for Barnardos on the telly the other day, said it had been very successful.

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/People/Young-People/gettingitright/about-named-person

of course, fat lot of good posting actual information does on this thread but hey ho.


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## Goldenstar (1 August 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			The Supreme Court ruled * parts of it* were unlawful while commenting that the aim of the scheme was "unquestionably legitimate and benign". The Scottish government is holding talks with relevant parties to rework the parts considered by the Supreme Court to be unlawful but it has confirmed that the policy will still be implemented once those changes have been made.

Again, if it's so heinous, why does it have the support of the leading child welfare bodies and associations in Scotland?
		
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Because they are professional busy bodies who spend their time intervening in the lives of the feckless and disadvantaged .
If you spend your life in that world long enough you forget that most people can manage their affairs without their invention .

I am confused as to how they are going to find these people who on earth would want to do this .


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## Alec Swan (1 August 2016)

Judgemental said:



			Quite and that busybody will be a recruiting officer for the SNP, as all the necessary papers are completed over tea and Dundee cake - of course, a tick box form will be surreptitiously slipped across the table to the child, to become a junior member of the SNP. 

With promises that if they are a member, they can go to the SNP's jolly camp in the summer on the loch, where the Frau Fuehrer will visit and indoctrinate the children, with her version of MacKampf.  Where the children can practice their Heil Fives with the 'Frau Fuehrer'.  

This whole abominable scheme is reminiscence of that which is found in Mein Kampf!
		
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J_m,  a smiley or two,  dotted about may assure others that you aren't being '_entirely_' serious! 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (1 August 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Aberlour Childcare Trust
Action for Children
Alliance for Children&#8217;s Rights
&#8230;&#8230;..
Children 1st
Children in Scotland
One Parent Families Scotland
Quarriers
&#8230;&#8230;..
Scottish Alliance for Children&#8217;s Rights
Scottish Childminding Association
&#8230;&#8230;..
Scottish Secondary Teachers Association
		
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Considering your list above and which I've edited,  would it not be an idea for all the splinter groups to form together under one banner and present a united front?  I feel sure it would be to greater effect.

Alec.


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## MotherOfChickens (1 August 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Because they are professional busy bodies who spend their time intervening in the lives of the feckless and disadvantaged .
If you spend your life in that world long enough you forget that most people can manage their affairs without their invention .
		
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there have been some very high profile abuse/negelct cases up here of late. always when it happens, people ask why something/more isn't done. Not saying I agree with this how it stands but what else would you suggest?


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## Goldenstar (1 August 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			there have been some very high profile abuse/negelct cases up here of late. always when it happens, people ask why something/more isn't done. Not saying I agree with this how it stands but what else would you suggest?
		
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Well how do you suppose these named person are going to operate when children under the care of social workers are not safe from evil parents .
These named persons what are they going to held responsible for ? we see what happens when social workers get it wrong but what role is this named person going to take when things go wrong .
Do they risk being pilloried like social workers are .
Whose going to train this army of family snoops because you surely have to train these people for what is a new role in society ,who is going to oversee them and whose going to protect parents when some over zealous nut gets their teeth into a family whose lifestyle choices they don't like .
And why would any one wish to it it's a vast number of people that will be needed to find them check them and train them will cost a fortune a fortune that would be better spent directly on family's that social services pick up .
I often see teachers mentained as suitable people but IMO they have enough to as it is .
And how many children is it envisaged that these people look after because if it lots it becomes a box ticking exercise and if it's few finding and appointing them ,checking them and training would be a enormous task .
For what ? Most taxpayers raise their kids without needing this sort of assistance .


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## JDee (1 August 2016)

Just amazes me that when something awful happens to a child/children there's a huge outcry that not enough is done to monitor situations and too much goes un noticed because no one cares until it's too late (sadly often the case) and when something is done to try to correct the situation there's a similarly huge outcry of 'too much intrusion'
You can't have it both ways - and dismissing an idea just because the political party that thought of it isn't one that you love to bits is rather like cutting off your nose to spite your face isn't it?


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## Goldenstar (1 August 2016)

JDee said:



			Just amazes me that when something awful happens to a child/children there's a huge outcry that not enough is done to monitor situations and too much goes un noticed because no one cares until it's too late (sadly often the case) and when something is done to try to correct the situation there's a similarly huge outcry of 'too much intrusion'
You can't have it both ways - and dismissing an idea just because the political party that thought of it isn't one that you love to bits is rather like cutting off your nose to spite your face isn't it?
		
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You can have it both ways you accept that things go wrong and you address errors partcularily when those paid by the state have failed in their duty .
But if a child is murdered it's the fault of the person who does it .
You won't ever hear me saying more should be done it's more that what we are already paying for the state to do should be done well .
If professional trained social worksers can't protect every children at risk what is this army of named people going to achieve.
You probably could protect every child from its parents but I for one would think a too gross intrusion into most peoples freedom to raise their children in relative privacy.


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## Buddy'sMum (1 August 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			So that's the SNP in the frame .
		
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ps the named person scheme comes from Getting it Right for Every Child (GIRFEC), which as MOC has already pointed out, was trialled with great success in the Highland GIRFEC Pathfinder under the *Labour/Liberal Democrat* coalition


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## Alec Swan (1 August 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			ps the named person scheme comes from Getting it Right for Every Child (GIRFEC), which as MOC has already pointed out, was trialled with great success in the Highland GIRFEC Pathfinder under the *Labour/Liberal Democrat* coalition 

Click to expand...

Do we remember the catastrophic efforts of Dr Marietta Higgs?

Official and 'blanket' treatment of children has never worked and it never will.

Alec.


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## Goldenstar (1 August 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			ps the named person scheme comes from Getting it Right for Every Child (GIRFEC), which as MOC has already pointed out, was trialled with great success in the Highland GIRFEC Pathfinder under the *Labour/Liberal Democrat* coalition 

Click to expand...

So what I think it's an gross intrusion of parents civil liberies .
I don't care if the angel Gabriel thought it up ,it's just plain wrong , the state is getting out of control when they think they have the right to impose things like that .


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## Judgemental (2 August 2016)

The headlines are never ending. 


"She's betrayed Scots' Nicola Sturgeon blasted for OBSESSION with independence and EU

NICOLA Sturgeon has been accused of risking tearing apart the Scottish Parliament with her independence obsession.

By KATIE MANSFIELD
PUBLISHED: 17:32, Mon, Aug 1, 2016 | UPDATED: 20:39, Mon, Aug 1, 2016

Nicola Sturgeon is betraying all those who took her at her word when she said the vote in parliament was not about independence 
Willie Rennie"

""The First Minister is at risk of breaking her mandate from the Scottish Parliament to look at all options. 

"She is risking the accusation that she is trying to fool us with talk of other options when the clear trajectory is her partys dream of another independence referendum." 

I am sure those who post here in favor of the SNP are well meaning but sadly, they are being misled and as Wliiie Rennie indicates, you are being fooled and that goes for every other heading, including this scheme involving children.


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## Goldenstar (2 August 2016)

Judgemental said:



			The headlines are never ending. 


"She's betrayed Scots' Nicola Sturgeon blasted for OBSESSION with independence and EU

NICOLA Sturgeon has been accused of risking tearing apart the Scottish Parliament with her independence obsession.

By KATIE MANSFIELD
PUBLISHED: 17:32, Mon, Aug 1, 2016 | UPDATED: 20:39, Mon, Aug 1, 2016

Nicola Sturgeon is betraying all those who took her at her word when she said the vote in parliament was not about independence 
Willie Rennie"

I am sure those who post in favor of the SNP are well meaning but sadly they are being misled.
		
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You really don't admire her don't you .
Don't worry it will soon be Autumn and you will more to take your mind off her .


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## Judgemental (2 August 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			You really don't admire her don't you .
Don't worry it will soon be Autumn and you will more to take your mind off her .
		
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I merely follow the quotes in the press and I felt that the fact Willie Rennie who sits in the Scottish Parliament says she has misled them and as I like to put it, welched on her word, to her own people. This is a very serious situation for the UK as a whole.

Well yes, I suppose we will be Hind Hunting but what with, can't put the whole pack on.

We have a right to remedy the matter and that could be easily achieved if the SNP kept their noses out of our affairs.

Plainly they don't like us poking our noses into Scots affairs and all their failings over, Trident, Independence, EU, Children thing. So the answer is leave us alone and we will leave them alone, it's that simple.

Until I see a vote that uses the Statutory Instrument attached to the Hunting Act 2004, to the satisfaction of hunting generally, I will post ad infinitum on this forum and thread, so long as the Fat Controller permits.


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## Goldenstar (2 August 2016)

Judgemental said:



			I merely follow the quotes in the press and I felt that the fact Willie Rennie who sits in the Scottish Parliament says she has misled them and as I like to put it, welched on her word, to her own people. This is a very serious situation for the UK as a whole.

Well yes, I suppose we will be Hind Hunting but what with, can't put the whole pack on.

We have a right to remedy the matter and that could be easily achieved if the SNP kept their noses out of our affairs.

Plainly they don't like us poking our noses into Scots affairs and all their failings over, Trident, Independence, EU, Children thing. So the answer is leave us alone and we will leave them alone, it's that simple.

Until I see a vote that uses the Statutory Instrument attached to the Hunting Act 2004, to the satisfaction of hunting generally, I will post ad infinitum on this forum and thread, so long as the Fat Controller permits.
		
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Enjoy yourself .
Your not rude , I see no reason why TFC should trouble you .


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## JDee (2 August 2016)

I don't think that the proposed bill is likely to follow the lines of Marietta Higgs and Co. but I would imagine that the statistics are telling them that what they're doing now is clearly not working so something has to be done
https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/child-protection-system/scotland/statistics/
I worked with Social Services for a while some years ago and the time that it took to get enough evidence to remove a child that was suspected of being abused in her own home was distressing to all involved. I don't know what the finished bill will look like but if it can help these children the intrusion will be worth it


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## Alec Swan (2 August 2016)

JDee said:



			I don't think that the proposed bill is likely to follow the lines of Marietta Higgs and Co. but I would imagine that the statistics are telling them that what they're doing now is clearly not working so something has to be done
&#8230;&#8230;..
		
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Whilst there obviously won't be a repeat of the Higgs & Co episode,  there are clearly times when authority listens to 'experts' who have the ability to make matters worse.

With the level of deprivation which so often envelopes those who are in poverty,  so children will always suffer and though not always by intent,  it's certainly the end result.  When we see the level of city development which is designed to brighten the present and the future I sometimes wonder if enough attention is paid to the 'hearts' of these communities.

Working on the basis that charity really should begin at home,  I wonder how our parliamentarian benefactors square the £billions that we spend on wars with the fact that we continue to have a deep seated level of poverty,  a poverty which goes deeper than bricks and mortar and slides and swings and playgrounds.

Alec.


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## hackneylass2 (3 August 2016)

'You and I both know one never crosses hunting folk and expect to get away with it.'

Well, after reading that, one thinks that J is a 16 year old, who, when he gets away from is PC, is bumbling about on a fat Welsh pony which is adorned with a tight flash and desperately hoping that his rider will get with the program and try the forward seat! Fnarr fnarr!


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## Judgemental (9 August 2016)

One does not want to appear obsessive but it really is in the best interests to warn the people of Scotland...........'dream' being the operative word.

"Sturgeon&#8217;s dream of independent Scotland in TATTERS as nation&#8217;s OIL CURSE continues

NICOLA Sturgeon&#8217;s hopes of an independent Scotland are looking increasingly unlikely as the country continues to suffer from a devastating oil slump.

By JOEY MILLAR
PUBLISHED: 09:04, Tue, Aug 9, 2016 | UPDATED: 11:28, Tue, Aug 9, 2016

Sturgeon has repeatedly ignored Scotland's economic downturn in her quest for independence
After promising the nation was strong enough to go alone and break from the United Kingdom, critics have mocked Ms Sturgeon following the country&#8217;s sharp economic downturn.

One expert even said Scotland would be &#8220;staring at the abyss&#8221; if the population had voted for independence in the 2014 referendum.

Declining oil prices have led to huge job losses and the decline of towns like Aberdeen, which was once called &#8216;Europe&#8217;s Oil Capital&#8217; ".


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## Alec Swan (9 August 2016)

Assuming that you're right J_M,  what now for Scotland?  Is it not time for Westminster to stand-up and face-up our responsibilities and to promote growth and self reliance for Scotland,  instead of wasting countless millions on the wars which are none of our concern?

Alec.


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## Judgemental (11 August 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Assuming that you're right J_M,  what now for Scotland?  Is it not time for Westminster to stand-up and face-up our responsibilities and to promote growth and self reliance for Scotland,  instead of wasting countless millions on the wars which are none of our concern?

Alec.
		
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That is a very big question Alec. United we stand and divided we fall.

I feel that such as the dramatic reduction on VAT for fuel will cause the Scots to see which side their bread is buttered.

The number of farmers who have said, that they voted Leave because they did not feel comfortable with clerks in Brussels effectively running their farming, is quite remarkable.  

Also they hope that farm Subsidies are targeted according to need. Certainly agriculture in Scotland would be an overall beneficiary.

Frankly I cannot see what the attraction is for Scotland to be run from Brussels. 

Of course the Scottish Fishing Industry will be a nett beneficiary (no puns intended) 

Many hope that the whole thing will go by the old name of the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

Oil is dead in the water so, all the existing industries have to receive patriotic support and Barnett Consequential has to be enhanced.


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## Alec Swan (11 August 2016)

Though I admire those who will take the side of Scotland and the Scots,  I have grave misgivings over the efficacy of Mrs Sturgeon.  Militancy is rarely the way,  though I'm not sure of a suitable alternative,  just yet.  Perhaps Independence would have been the way forward,  after all.

In the unseemly rush to accept the handouts,  I fear that it's been a form of prostitution.  I fear for the land of my forefathers,  over the next 20 years.

Alec.


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## Judgemental (12 August 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Though I admire those who will take the side of Scotland and the Scots,  I have grave misgivings over the efficacy of Mrs Sturgeon.  Militancy is rarely the way,  though I'm not sure of a suitable alternative,  just yet.  Perhaps Independence would have been the way forward,  after all.

In the unseemly rush to accept the handouts,  I fear that it's been a form of prostitution.  I fear for the land of my forefathers,  over the next 20 years.

Alec.
		
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I think the issue of VAT will be very persuasive. 

Assuming the promise is kept to reduce VAT on all household fuel, if we voted to Leave the EU, in my opinion Mrs May is on a Win Win tragetrory. Bear in mind it was Boris' idea and I have no doubt he will see the promise is kept.

Furthermore, I believe reductions in VAT will be targeted. 

I don't think folk generally or the City have really woken up to just how powerful the VAT card is as dare I say, a fiscal bribe.

Indeed it would not surprise me to see the Chancellor grasp the nettle and start the VAT reductions in his Autumn Budget, irrespective of whether or not Article 50 has been triggered. Frankly who cares and what can the EU do, they don''t have any of our assets or money.

Hopefully the Treasury have in event stopped paying Brussels.

Right minded Scots will say, if we are in the EU we have to pay sky high VAT, if we are out, that nice Mrs May is Lady Bountiful. 

That will sink any notion of Independence.

No I feel and from what my agricultural friends in Scotland are saying, there is a mood of co-operation and friendly unity from the Scot's populations as a whole. Something Sturgeon needs to heed.


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## fburton (12 August 2016)

The govt could lower VAT from 20% to 15% _right now_ if it wanted - and could do so even if we stayed in the EU. Indeed, under the rules, VAT on domestic fuel could be lowered to 5% while we are still a member. Do you think Mrs May plans to reduce VAT on fuel to less than 5%?


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## Goldenstar (12 August 2016)

fburton said:



			The govt could lower VAT from 20% to 15% _right now_ if it wanted - and could do so even if we stayed in the EU. Indeed, under the rules, VAT on domestic fuel could be lowered to 5% while we are still a member. Do you think Mrs May plans to reduce VAT on fuel to less than 5%?
		
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Is it not already 5% on domestic fuel ?


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## ycbm (12 August 2016)

fburton said:



			The govt could lower VAT from 20% to 15% _right now_ if it wanted - and could do so even if we stayed in the EU. Indeed, under the rules, VAT on domestic fuel could be lowered to 5% while we are still a member. Do you think Mrs May plans to reduce VAT on fuel to less than 5%?
		
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Only for now. The EU want to standardise taxation across member States, starting I think with VAT and corporation tax.

There are already controls. Britain wants to remove VAT from essential female sanitary products but we are not allowed to.

VAT is already 5% on domestic and small business fuel.


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## Judgemental (13 August 2016)

The fact the Prime Minister has said that money will be paid to folk disadvantaged by Fracking and the Chancellor has announced that agricultural subsidies will be paid by the UK government, in future, to replace those paid by the EU but to be targeted on disadvantaged areas.

Clearly Mrs May's small punt on Fracking, is indicative of how she can be SELECTIVE in order to keep folk happy.

That position unties the hands of the Treasury and DEFRA, allowing the government to 'incentivise' such as the Scots to become 'loved up' to the rest of the UK.

All sorts of VAT perambulations could be introduced, so that any sensible Scot will very soon realise that Lady Bountiful May and Happy Hammond, will have the former's best interests at heart. Which would not be the attitude of Brussels at 20% across the board.

Goodness home heating VAT in Scotland could go down to zero!


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## Goldenstar (13 August 2016)

Mrs May is no fool and she will have an eye to her electorate putting vat on domestic fuel to zero in Scotland is as likely as NS joined UKIP .


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## Judgemental (13 August 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Mrs May is no fool and she will have an eye to her electorate putting vat on domestic fuel to zero in Scotland is as likely as NS joined UKIP .
		
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Perhaps my wording was erroneous. What I am saying is that VAT and many other taxes are DICTATED (set in stone) by Brussels and the Scots people will realise, that that they are best off being part of the UK, where such a home heating fuel VAT can be tailored by the Chancellor, according to need or any perceived disadvantaged area.

Remember that: DISADVANTAGED AREAS, it will be writ large in many spheres in the next four years.

No doubt a whole range of fiscal packages will be sculpted, to gain maximum voting power for the Conservative Party in Scotland and elsewhere.

It would not surprise me to see the SNP's numbers in the House of Commons reduced by 50% at the next election. If agriculture, fishing, shipbuilding and heavy engineering become favored. Scots are very canny and will realise that they need to shake the hand that feeds them. Along with warmly embracing Barnett Consequential.  

Let's be frank, this has never happened before, i.e Brexit and it gives the government of the day a wholly unique  blank canvass, to frame policies to their greatest advantage.


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## madmav (13 August 2016)

I'm mystified by Scotland's desire to free themselves of the rule of uk government and yet is desperate to remain within the rule of EU. I speak as someone who passionately wanted the Remain vote to win and as an advocate of a strong UK.


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## Alec Swan (13 August 2016)

Judgemental said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . What I am saying is that VAT and many other taxes are DICTATED (set in stone) by Brussels and &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Hungary having recently increased VAT to 27 per cent it will not be long before 'other countries follow suit' and bring the EU average close to that of Scandinavia's average of 24.3 per cent.

'Currently' I accept,  but individual states remain free to set their own VAT rate.  That said,  I suspect that the UK Brexit question has rather clipped the wings of those in Brussels and they're (again 'currently') not pushing their luck!  There are other nations who are teetering on the edge of an exit.

Alec.


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## Judgemental (14 August 2016)

Sturgeon warned by UK it's 'crystal clear' she cannot influence Brexit after German junket

NICOLA Sturgeon has been told in "crystal clear" detail she has no mandate to influence Britain's exit from the EU following her trip to Germany this week.

By SIOBHAN MCFADYEN, EXCLUSIVE
PUBLISHED: 00:00, Sun, Aug 14, 2016
Nicola Sturgeon has been told she will not negotiate in Brexit plansGETTY
Nicola Sturgeon has been told she will not negotiate in Brexit plans
The SNP leader, 46, spent taxpayer's money on the ineffective trip to meet the deputy foreign minister of Germany on Tuesday.

But her plan to woo support seems like it will have zero baring on what happens when the UK government invokes Article 50.

While the Foreign Office says it will do everything in its power to help protect the interests of Scotland - Miss Sturgeon will not be responsible for direct negotiations. 

An FCO spokesman said: &#8220;Under the devolution settlement, it is crystal clear that the UK Government is responsible for international relations and the foreign policy of the United Kingdom, including treaties and the relationship with the European Union. 

"As we start the process of leaving the EU, we will work closely with the Scottish Government and get the best possible deal for all parts of our United Kingdom.&#8221;

RELATED ARTICLES
SNP told to act NOW over tax 'time bomb' as Scotland faces recession
Humiliation for Sturgeon as her dad loses by-election seat in counc...
Ms Sturgeon paid lip service to Luxembourgish politician Jean-Claude Juncker GETTY
Ms Sturgeon met Luxembourgish politician Jean-Claude Juncker
Just days after the Brexit vote on June 23, Ms Sturgeon staged a high-profile visit to an EU summit in the hope of holding talks with Brussels chiefs over retaining Scotland&#8217;s EU membership, in defiance of the UK referendum result.

But her visit which began with a visit with Luxembourgish politician and EU president Jean-Claude Juncker ended in humiliation after she was pointedly snubbed by European Council president Donald Tusk and both France and Spain shot down her plans to directly negotiate a way for Scotland to remain part of the bloc. 

Under international law Scotland is not a recognised country and therefore cannot negotiate for itself outside of its union with the United Kingdom without achieving independence, a concept that the majority of the Scottish population does not want.

Ms Sturgeon had time to joke with Mr Juncker following the referendum GETTY
Ms Sturgeon had time to joke with Mr Juncker following the referendum
It is crystal clear that the UK Government is responsible for international relations and the foreign policy of the United Kingdom
An FCO Spokesperson
British politicians from councils and devolved parliaments like Wales and Northern Ireland are allowed to travel to countries to discuss issues.

Usually these trips are facilitated by diplomats however Ms Sturgeon is believed to be attempting her own variation of protocols in her recent jaunts.

A source said: "There is an agreement which sets how the devolved administrations may interact with the EU and international bodies. 

Theresa May flew to Scotland after becoming PMGETTY
Theresa May flew to Scotland after becoming PM
"Whilst the Foreign Office may assist with providing support, any costs incurred are charged back to the devolved administrations."

The comments from the Foreign Office come after the First Minister was left embarrassed after it was revealed her recent attempts to chair a meeting of EU consuls in Edinburgh was a shambles.

Ms Sturgeon and ministers Angela Constance and Fiona Hyslop in the Scottish Government apparently posed for photos during their summit of EU consuls following the allegedly 'high level' talks.


But it was later revealed that the people invited had little power and weren't diplomats but individuals with honorary titles.

Indeed one of those was in fact a rat catcher from the town of Paisley, Renfrewshire situated 11 miles outside Glasgow.

The rat catcher, aka Scottish man Iain Lawson, was the 'honorary consul' for Estonia who became fascinated with the country when he visited with the Tartan Army two decades ago


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## Buddy'sMum (16 August 2016)

Judgemental said:



			The comments from the Foreign Office come after the First Minister was left embarrassed after it was revealed her recent attempts to chair a meeting of EU consuls in Edinburgh was a shambles.

Ms Sturgeon and ministers Angela Constance and Fiona Hyslop in the Scottish Government apparently posed for photos during their summit of EU consuls following the allegedly 'high level' talks.


But it was later revealed that the people invited had little power and weren't diplomats but individuals with honorary titles.

Indeed one of those was in fact a rat catcher from the town of Paisley, Renfrewshire situated 11 miles outside Glasgow.

The rat catcher, aka Scottish man Iain Lawson, was the 'honorary consul' for Estonia who became fascinated with the country when he visited with the Tartan Army two decades ago
		
Click to expand...

This was a meeting of EU consuls general on July 5 to discuss how to  reassure EU citizens living in Scotland that they are welcome in the country. 
The meeting included some honorary consuls as well as several with official functions. Honorary consuls - like Mr Lawson - have day jobs.


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## Judgemental (16 August 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			This was a meeting of EU consuls general on July 5 to discuss how to  reassure EU citizens living in Scotland that they are welcome in the country. 
The meeting included some honorary consuls as well as several with official functions. Honorary consuls - like Mr Lawson - have day jobs.
		
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Yes well, it's rather obvious Sturgeon and her cronies are making Scotland look very foolish.

The Scots are extremely fine people and do not need all this ridiculous posturing and and second, nay third rate, attempts to try and be some sort of 'world stateswoman'.

Go back to Irvine and worry about rubbish collection perhaps.


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## Buddy'sMum (16 August 2016)

I'm afraid I can't see how the Scottish Government's attempts to reassure EU nationals currently living, working and studying in Scotland that they will be welcome to remain in the country is posturing or "making Scotland look very foolish."

I do, however, believe that Mrs May's position of "I may or may not decide to kick all EU nationals out of the UK" is making Mrs May look very foolish.


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## Goldenstar (16 August 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			I'm afraid I can't see how the Scottish Government's attempts to reassure EU nationals currently living, working and studying in Scotland that they will be welcome to remain in the country is posturing or "making Scotland look very foolish."

I do, however, believe that Mrs May's position of "I may or may not decide to kick all EU nationals out of the UK" is making Mrs May look very foolish.
		
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Do you , personally I would rather Mrs May had her eye on how British passport holders are treated by the EU before offering a blanket right to remain to all those here from the rest of the EU.
Quid pro quo is the name of the game .


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## Judgemental (16 August 2016)

To answer these comments I am going to recount an interesting conversation I had recently in pub in Devon with a gentleman called George.

George is Devonian through and through and about 70. Everything is said with a strong and at times difficult to understand, Devonian Burr. Some who are politically correct would call it a regional accent.

I said, "can I buy you a drink". "ah ee can and I tell ee suumut".

So I got the drinks sat down with George, he took a sip and looked knowingly at me, paused and said "I voted" and sat back in his chair with something of a triumphal flourish and satisfaction.

"I see" I said, "you mean the referendum". "Ah that be it, I voted and the Misses and the Maid (Unmarried 35 old daughter) never voted in my life before".

"So what stirred you up to do that" I enquired. "ah twer, pause, twer they vurreners (foreigners)".

"too many" said George, "it be all wrong and they politicos in Luunnon, what do them know".

Then he produced from his pocket a little red coaster which he had picked up in a Wetherspoons Pub. 

Depicting Osborne and Madam Lagarde of the IMF and mentioning Dominic Stauss-Kahn her predecessor.  Osborne having been literally sacked by Mrs May. Lagarde now facing a criminal indictment in Paris and Khan in disgrace for fiddling with a chamber maid in a New York Hotel.

George was waving this at me and the fact he had it clearly made him something of an authority on the IMF, the former chancellor of the Exchequer, bearing in mind the boss of Wetherspoons had distributed 500k to all his pubs denigrating the EU and the aforementioned persons.

"ah" said George, "what do any of 'em know". "Thic Canada chap", For a moment I wondered who he meant and George said, "the bank fellow". "Oh you mean The Governor of the Bank of England". "Ah that be ee" said George. "what do ee know, comes from Canada telling us we are going bust" said with contemptuous snort. "ah an thic President (Obama) what do ee know, tellin us ow to vote, the bu..er".     

"There be be too many vurreners".

After which the conversation happily turned to the deer up on the moor.


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## Judgemental (21 August 2016)

Sturgeon's EU slum: Squalor, filth and sex crime in constituency branded SHAME OF SCOTLAND

FIRST Minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon&#8217;s very own constituency has become a haven for illegal immigration and organised crime where women cannot walk the streets, it has been claimed.

By SIOBHAN MCFADYEN
PUBLISHED: 13:59, Sun, Aug 21, 2016 | UPDATED: 14:45, Sun, Aug 21, 2016

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/70...ime-in-constituency-branded-shame-of-Scotland


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## Buddy'sMum (21 August 2016)

Judgemental said:



			Sturgeon's EU slum: Squalor, filth and sex crime in constituency branded SHAME OF SCOTLAND

FIRST Minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon&#8217;s very own constituency has become a haven for illegal immigration and organised crime where women cannot walk the streets, it has been claimed.

By SIOBHAN MCFADYEN
PUBLISHED: 13:59, Sun, Aug 21, 2016 | UPDATED: 14:45, Sun, Aug 21, 2016

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/70...ime-in-constituency-branded-shame-of-Scotland

Click to expand...

More Sturgeon bashing baloney from the Daily Express.  Starting to get really boring, Judgemental.

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/...in__Here_s_20_things_to_love_about_Govanhill/
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/watch-govanhill-primary-pupils-hit-7949209
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/14325355.Govanhill_cops___We_will_overturn_the_fear_of_crime_/


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## Judgemental (22 August 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			More Sturgeon bashing baloney from the Daily Express.  Starting to get really boring, Judgemental.

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/...in__Here_s_20_things_to_love_about_Govanhill/
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/watch-govanhill-primary-pupils-hit-7949209
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/14325355.Govanhill_cops___We_will_overturn_the_fear_of_crime_/

Click to expand...

You betcha. 

The lady defaulted on a agreement English Votes and English laws.

It is very boring that a full pack of hounds cannot move the large herds of deer off the small farms, the West Country.

Yes it will get even more boring, the lady cannot even run her own constituency

When Robertson stand up in the House of Commons and formally agrees, to English Votes for English laws and they will not interfere with any future government moves to amend the Hunting Act 2004, I will cease and desist.


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## Buddy'sMum (22 August 2016)

Judgemental said:



			Yes it will get even more boring, the lady cannot even run her own constituency
		
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Well, seeing as her constituents voted overwhelmingly to keep her as the MSP for Glasgow Southside in May's elections, it seems they think she's doing OK.


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## Judgemental (26 August 2016)

When this sort of person will not publish their expenses it speaks volumes as to their integrity.


"NICOLA Sturgeon's government has rejected a request to publish details of how much her taxpayer funded EU junkets are costing the UK taxpayer".

"By SIOBHAN MCFADYEN
PUBLISHED: 17:38, Fri, Aug 26, 2016 | UPDATED: 20:01, Fri, Aug 26, 2016
Ms Sturgeon has been travelling to lay out her position on the EUGETTY
Ms Sturgeon has been travelling to lay out her position on the EU
And the Scottish Government is six months behind publishing up to date information on how they are spending their devolved £33billion budget.

Ms Sturgeon, 46, has been travelling across Europe without a mandate to negotiate since the results of the EU referendum in June.

She has travelled to Germany and Brussels to hold talks with EU leaders at the expense of the British public.

She has also spent time in London trying to rally support as well as holding talks in Edinburgh at a cost to the taxpayer. 

RELATED ARTICLES
Sturgeon&#8217;s referendum plans, SHATTERED as Scotland nearly £15bn in red
Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon appoints OWN Brexit minister
Ms Sturgeon is coming under scrutiny over the spending of public money GETTY
Ms Sturgeon is coming under scrutiny over the spending of public money
However, Holyrood has rejected a Freedom of Information request from a member of the public to outline the costs of the trips".

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/70...-to-publish-costs-on-taxpayer-funded-EU-trips


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## Alec Swan (27 August 2016)

Judgemental said:



			When this sort of person will not publish their expenses it speaks volumes as to their integrity.

&#8230;&#8230;..

She has travelled to Germany and Brussels to hold talks with EU leaders at the expense of the British public.

She has also spent time in London trying to rally support as well as holding talks in Edinburgh at a cost to the taxpayer. 

&#8230;&#8230;..
		
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Whilst I'm no more a fan of the lady in question than you are JM,  a part of her duties are to represent Scotland and the SNP.  Just as she should demonstrate a responsibility for the funding which she uses,  to suggest that she should be limited in her legitimate travel expenses cannot be right.

So;  Just why the SNP and their leader refuse to publish their expenses,  fails to demonstrate a sense of transparency I agree,  but to refuse her the right to explore her ambitions,  is equally wrong.  To date,  it seems,  her overtures to Brussels have met with a wall,  so perhaps she's beginning to see the futility of her grand and master plan.  Dunno,  but I still can't stand the woman! 

Alec.


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## Judgemental (27 August 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Whilst I'm no more a fan of the lady in question than you are JM,  a part of her duties are to represent Scotland and the SNP.  Just as she should demonstrate a responsibility for the funding which she uses,  to suggest that she should be limited in her legitimate travel expenses cannot be right.

So;  Just why the SNP and their leader refuse to publish their expenses,  fails to demonstrate a sense of transparency I agree,  but to refuse her the right to explore her ambitions,  is equally wrong.  To date,  it seems,  her overtures to Brussels have met with a wall,  so perhaps she's beginning to see the futility of her grand and master plan.  Dunno,  but I still can't stand the woman! 

Alec.
		
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Alec there comes a point when very serious questions have to be asked about somebody in public office, who is constantly showing up in the media as apparently acting in their own interests, at the expense of state funding.

Yet again she had drawn unfavorable comment in relation to taxing of serving military. I wonder if this has something to do with Rosyth and Trident.

"Sturgeon branded anti-Armed Forces as Scot troops face tax bill FOUR TIMES that in England

EXCLUSIVE: NICOLA Sturgeon has been accused of being anti British Armed Forces after failing to stop Scottish soldiers receiving hefty tax bills which dont apply to troops living south of the border.

By TOM BATCHELOR
PUBLISHED: 12:00, Sat, Aug 27, 2016 | UPDATED: 13:13, Sat, Aug 27, 2016
SoldiersGETTYIG
Troops in Scotland face paying up to four times as much council tax
Troops in Scotland face paying up to four times as much council tax as those living in England and Wales because of discrepancies in how council tax is calculated.

Some are even being sent letters from sheriff officers threatening to freeze bank accounts and send out bailiffs if the money isnt paid, according to ex-Royal Marine John McGlinchey.

Serving and retired servicemen and women in most parts of the UK are eligible for a 50 per cent discount on the council tax for their family home when they are stationed abroad or in barracks elsewhere in the country".

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/70...bill-four-times-higher-than-troops-in-England

Sturgeon and her people actively interfered with the Hunting Act 2004. We must never lose sight of that and never let up from commenting on this thread, until she and the SNP agree to English Votes for English Laws. 

Hunting folk have taken far far too much sh.t from far too many quarters and it is time, such people and anybody who takes an interest in our dialouge, are left in no doubt that will find themselves the subject  comment.


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## Irish gal (28 August 2016)

This thread isn't about hunting it's about Scottish independence and how much it terrifies those south of the border. It actually makes funny reading! Why are so many of the same posters so vociferously against the very notion of independence, and constant posting to that effEct - because it will leave them as a small bit player in world affairs - which they can't countenance, apparently.

At this juncture I just want to say - Go Scotland! You will make a great little European nation. As an outsider this thread just raises a wry smile. Poster after poster is telling you why it's impossible. As the rest of us enjoyed a chuckle as we took in the newly elected Theresa May literally race for the border - ask yourself why was she running so hard after just being elected - to tell the Scottish people they couldn't possibly have another referendum!?

It's blindingly obvious. In the same way that all the naysayers are quite transparent. Their agenda is quite straightforward. What will happen to Great Britain without Scotland - it will cease to exist. That's why they can't countenance it. 

Do you know that the world is watching and that there are a world of possibilities. Some here are talking about a Celtic alliance. We speak the same language after all, and No I don't mean English! Scots Gaelic and Irish are just about  Interchangeable, we have a shared history that precedes your current incarnation

Independence of itself is a currency! I have had fantastic holidays in Scotalnd but have always felt a residual sadness that the country is not independent. Scotland has everything it takes to be very successful, and if it becomes independent, it will be so much more appealing.

That's been our experience here in Ireland. There are lots of people who identify with small nations, who rise above and shake off colonisers. You mightn't credit it but they come here in their droves. I've often been fairly gobsmacked in pubs in Dublin tourist areas to watch Dutch, German and French people singing along to Irish rebel songs, they don't miss a beat, or get a word wrong, they know them by heart! Perhaps it's because everyone loves an underdog, or perhaps it's just because we all have an innate sense of justice


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## popsdosh (28 August 2016)

Why would Scottish independence terrify us south of the border. I along with several others say bring it on and then we can stop subsidising all the extras they get that are not available this side of the border . A report out last week showed again that the economy in Scotland is not sustainable as it is without assistance from south of the border.


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## Lizzie66 (28 August 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Why would Scottish independence terrify us south of the border. I along with several others say bring it on and then we can stop subsidising all the extras they get that are not available this side of the border . A report out last week showed again that the economy in Scotland is not sustainable as it is without assistance from south of the border.
		
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Agree with this. The Scottish had a referendum that the then leader of the SNP said was a once in a generation opportunity. The Scottish decided that they wanted to remain as part of the United Kingdom. We have been joined for over 300 years and have shared a monarch for over 400 years. In some sporting competitions we compete as England Scotland Ireland Wales in others as team GB. We are both politically and in sporting terms stronger as team UK (GB arguably doesn't include NI) and to me its like family, we may bicker a lot between ourselves but ultimately we will stand together against others.

It is a shame that the EU didn't offer genuine reform prior to the vote as I think 90% of the British people would want to stay in a truly reformed EU and this is what the government of the UK offered to Scotland. What I can't understand is that the SNP is fervently pro EU and anti UK when its level of power and choice is greater within the UK than it would be within the EU as an independent nation.


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## Irish gal (28 August 2016)

That's interesting about subsidising Scotland Popsdosh. I must say that the following makes fairly compelling reading, it certainly got me thinking. Since people south of the border aren't bothered about a Scottish departure, I wonder why they campaigned so hard last time. Poor David Cameron fairly wore himself out, even raising the Saltire over no. 10.

Still it doesn't have quite the same power as it would flying over a Soverign parliament in an independent nation - it's just not quite the same thing.




Shutterbug said:



			If you think for one second that Scotland is subsidised by England then you are the one that needs to, as you politely put it, "get real" .  Repeat a lie often enough and idiots will buy it indeed. This isn't my creation but I find it handy to provide as a point of education to people who perpetuate this myth.

The Scottish subsidy myth

1979 to 1997 the lifetime of the Tory governments of Thatcher and Major - a table question in parliament revealed during this period Scotland gave £27bn more than was received. 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/...eived-1.406190

That's a lot of money Scotland lost. Add to this Scotland having to pay interest on loans and debts it didn't need bumps the figure even higher. 



So what about more recent times 

The Institute of Fiscal Studies in 2013 provided a breakdown of taxes from each of the 4 parts of the UK and found Scots pay more taxes per head than the other 3 countries. 

http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/6881


What is difficult to find is a comparative breakdown of taxes and revenues by region but The Centre for Economics and Business Research have managed top do this and state state Scotland receives no net subsidy 

http://www.cebr.com/reports/how-mone...idises-others/


Now The Daily Mail ceased on the figures usefully broken down in the following link to highlight what London pays but what is clear is Scotland is not a subsidised region, in fact, of the 13 regions (including 9 from England) Scotland is only one of 4 that receives no net subsidy. 

So the idea that The English taxpayer subsidises the Scots is a preposterous especially when you consider 6 of the English regions receive subsidies Scotland doesn't. 

A word on London revenues. Yes it the economic powerhouse and it revenues provide susbsidies around the UK (excluding Scotland) but the tax and revenue spend doesnt includes big capital project spending which London has received lots of but also its prosperity has it roots in the vast oil revenues in the 1980s at the disposal of the UK government being used not spread the wealth across the UK but create an economic boom in the SE of England. The rest of the UK deserves the payback.
		
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## Irish gal (28 August 2016)

Lizzie66 said:



			Agree with this. The Scottish had a referendum that the then leader of the SNP said was a once in a generation opportunity. The Scottish decided that they wanted to remain as part of the United Kingdom. We have been joined for over 300 years and have shared a monarch for over 400 years. In some sporting competitions we compete as England Scotland Ireland Wales in others as team GB. We are both politically and in sporting terms stronger as team UK (GB arguably doesn't include NI) and to me its like family, we may bicker a lot between ourselves but ultimately we will stand together against others.

It is a shame that the EU didn't offer genuine reform prior to the vote as I think 90% of the British people would want to stay in a truly reformed EU and this is what the government of the UK offered to Scotland. What I can't understand is that the SNP is fervently pro EU and anti UK when its level of power and choice is greater within the UK than it would be within the EU as an independent nation.
		
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Is that right Lizzie, seriously, do you compete as England Scotland Ireland Wales? Do you know that Ireland left the UK almost 100 years ago, or did you just blank out that unpalatable fact?? Let's face it there's a lot of blanking out going on on this thread so nothing would surprise me

We were part of the U.K for a long time too, under British rule for 700 years and it didn't stop us going. A bit like Scotland really, they kept telling us we'd never manage on our own. But you know what, once the country was under our own control we did just fine. 

The world is full of small nations, like ourselves, think of luxembourg, Belgium, New Zealand(small population) and they're doing very well. And I've no doubt that Scotland would do equally as well - if we can do it, they can do it.

There's fantastic tourism potential, the Highlands have to be one the most beautiful places in Europe. Huge eco tourism potential there, especially if proposals to re-wild it go ahead.

Edinburgh is the ideal alternative financial hub for companies looking to trade into Europe, in an independent Scotland in the EU. There could be huge opportunities.

Where are you getting this idea that the EU has more control over people than their own governments. I'm in an EU state and it has very little impact on my life. An independent Scotland is not about to be swallowed up by the dastardly empire you are painting a picture of - it doesn't exist - except of course on the pages of British newspapers!


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## ycbm (28 August 2016)

Another view of the subsidy of Scotland by England 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...nd-to-get-billions-of-English-income-tax.html



I understand that a lot of historical figures for oil revenue were worked out on the basis that Scotland owned all the oil around it in the North sea. Apparently, international convention is that an oilfield is divided up by continuing the land border between the two countries out at the same angle into the sea. If you do that, then not all that oil was Scots anyway.


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## Lizzie66 (28 August 2016)

Irish gal said:



			Is that right Lizzie, seriously, do you compete as England Scotland Ireland Wales? Do you know that Ireland left the UK almost 100 years ago, or did you just blank out that unpalatable fact?? Let's face it there's a lot of blanking out going on on this thread so nothing would surprise me

Click to expand...

Before you jump on your high horse and get sarcastic the answer is yes, because generally speaking when we compete as our separate nations then Northern Ireland & Eire frequently join together to compete as a united Ireland, so what I said does hold true.


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## Lizzie66 (28 August 2016)

Irish gal said:



			Where are you getting this idea that the EU has more control over people than their own governments. I'm in an EU state and it has very little impact on my life. An independent Scotland is not about to be swallowed up by the dastardly empire you are painting a picture of - it doesn't exist - except of course on the pages of British newspapers!
		
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Where are you getting the idea that I dislike the EU ? I don't - I think it has faults and I think there has been too much power transferred to Brussels from the individual nations (this is a view that has been expressed by many EU nations recently). I think it unfortunate that the EU didn't offer up hope of real reform before our referendum as with genuine reform I think the result would have been different. Germany and France are very pro further integration and full political union which will largely result in the individual nations having less control over their policies and laws. 

The issue is that we have a city the size of Dublin effectively moving into the UK every 2 years, the people per se aren't the problem, if there is work for them then they are more than welcome. The problem is that we aren't building houses that fast, nor expanding our schools that fast or our health service so house process go up to the point where our young people can't afford them (rent is higher than a mortgage), our class sizes are growing and despite more money going into the NHS the service level is falling as there just aren't enough medical staff. If you were allowed to restrict numbers (even temporarily) to allow the infrastructure to catch up then this would help, but the EU doesn't allow for this. I personally found the campaign for the remain to be too negative, there are many wonderful things about the EU and largely I believe the positives outweigh the negatives, however I can understand why people voted as they did.


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## Alec Swan (28 August 2016)

Irish gal said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Where are you getting this idea that the EU has more control over people than their own governments. I'm in an EU state and it has very little impact on my life. &#8230;&#8230;..
		
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Your post really surprises me.  I can't believe that you believe that the EU doesn't control every aspect of your life.  What I can believe though is that you simply don't care,  and that is an entirely different matter.  Your apparent acceptance of central control with a one-rule-fits-all which has grown beyond belief,  may well suit you as a person,  but it is stifling the ability of individual nations to show initiative and expand.  

Far too many form an opinion around what actually effects them as individuals,  rather than considering their nation as a whole and I'm wondering if you're amongst them.

Alec.


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## popsdosh (29 August 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Your post really surprises me.  I can't believe that you believe that the EU doesn't control every aspect of your life.  What I can believe though is that you simply don't care,  and that is an entirely different matter.  Your apparent acceptance of central control with a one-rule-fits-all which has grown beyond belief,  may well suit you as a person,  but it is stifling the ability of individual nations to show initiative and expand.  

Far too many form an opinion around what actually effects them as individuals,  rather than considering their nation as a whole and I'm wondering if you're amongst them.

Alec.
		
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Yes Alec and Irish gal has conveniently forgotten the huge amount of bail out their country had to receive to survive a self inflicted economic catastrophe all brought about by membership of this wonderful institution. Something Scotland would have to protect itself from seeing ,as with comrade NS running the show they would never balance the books. A lot north of the border need to accept that without the Barnett formula and its generous settlement for Scotland the SNP would not have the ability to give you so much or indeed survive. In times of difficulty they may wish they still had their mate just over the border if you dont believe me ask the Greeks about austerity measures imposed by the EU


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## ycbm (29 August 2016)

Irish Gal has also forgotten that a lot of the Irish recovery from that crash, Popsdosh, has come about by lowering their rate of Corporation Tax, something which the EU is currently working on banning individual countries from doing.


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## Irish gal (29 August 2016)

Lizzie66 said:



			Before you jump on your high horse and get sarcastic the answer is yes, because generally speaking when we compete as our separate nations then Northern Ireland & Eire frequently join together to compete as a united Ireland, so what I said does hold true.
		
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When NI and Ireland compete together it's for Ireland, which is not part of team GB as you made out in your first response to me. It's all there in black and white, and anybody with even the most rudimentary grasp of English can read it.


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## Irish gal (29 August 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Your post really surprises me.  I can't believe that you believe that the EU doesn't control every aspect of your life.  What I can believe though is that you simply don't care,  and that is an entirely different matter.  Your apparent acceptance of central control with a one-rule-fits-all which has grown beyond belief,  may well suit you as a person,  but it is stifling the ability of individual nations to show initiative and expand.  

Far too many form an opinion around what actually effects them as individuals,  rather than considering their nation as a whole and I'm wondering if you're amongst them.

Alec.
		
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Will you take another read of that Alec. I've read it a few times and it seems the second paragraph just contradicts the first one, with the result that one cancels the other out, so I don't know what you are saying.


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## Lizzie66 (29 August 2016)

Irish gal said:



			When NI and Ireland compete together it's for Ireland, which is not part of team GB as you made out in your first response to me. It's all there in black and white, and anybody with even the most rudimentary grasp of English can read it.
		
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You are seriously obnoxious. My post stated that the component parts of the UK sometimes compete as "team GB" which I also pointed out was inaccurate as it should be team UK to incorporate Northern Ireland and that we also compete as our individual parts England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Northern Ireland compete in some sports as NI (eg football) and in others as part of a united Ireland (eg rugby). I did not make out that Eire/Republic of Ireland was part of team GB, Ireland is a term that incorporates both Northern Ireland and Eire/Republic of Ireland, neither can lay total claim to it. So when you say its for Ireland then this is fine unless you are also using this term to relate solely to Eire/Republic of Ireland which you have.


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## Irish gal (29 August 2016)

Popsdosh the EU bailout of Ireland has very little to do with Scottish independence, in the same way that the Greek bailout has nothing to do with it, so I wonder why you bring it up, except perhaps to deflect from the debate.

And yes Ybcm, our corporation tax here has attracted big multinationals, exactly the types that all European capitals hope to attract as they bring in so much money and high level employment - just what any economy needs. 

No doubt there's a great lesson in that for the Scots, and I must say it's interesting to see that in all the responses to my posts not one has picked up on Scotland's great attributes, which I discussed at length.

Posters have been writing about how the UK is like a family, well in healthy families members are happy to praise one another and celebrate their strong points, more dysfunctional ones do a lot of criticising. No wonder then that people often cut ties in those situations. And on that note I do think Edinburgh will make a smashing financial centre and alternative to London in an independent Scotland.

There's lots of interest from international companies in opening in Dublin post Brexit, a massive stock exchange, Bats Europe, has been weighing up a move according to the press in the last few days. But I think Edinburgh would be very well placed to provide an alternative in an independent Scotland in the EU. 

It's great commercial history could be capitalised on. I imagine a campaign to woo companies based in London along the lines of 'Edinburgh - Cradle of Commerce, Gateway to Europe' could be seriously successful.

The economic spin off from companies locating there would be huge. We've seen a mini boom in Dublin, thanks to the Googles, Facebooks and their ilk. All those people have to be fed and watered and they have a lot of disposable income so there's a whole economy that flourishes around them.

Companies like that would bring a lot of money into an independent Scotland and contrary to what others have said about NS balancing the books, I doubt somehow they will be short of accountants to look after that money!

Anyway, we've no bank holiday here today, so I better press on. I will leave you guys to it.


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## Buddy'sMum (29 August 2016)

Lizzie66 said:



			What I can't understand is that the SNP is fervently pro EU and anti UK when its level of power and choice is greater within the UK than it would be within the EU as an independent nation.
		
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Because they believe than an independent Scotland in the EU would have more power than it currently has as part of the UK. Why is that so hard to understand?


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## ycbm (29 August 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Because they believe than an independent Scotland in the EU would have more power than it currently has as part of the UK. Why is that so hard to understand?
		
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Because it's impossible to see how that would be the case? For a start, Scotland would have to join the Euro. If they are to join the Euro, their desired socialist budget financed by debt will go straight out of the window. For a second, Scotland is tiny and will be a net taker from the EU purse. How much influence will that give them? What influence does Ireland have? They had an austerity budget imposed on them and their chief asset, low corporation tax, is soon to be removed from them. Ireland are told what to do by the EU just as Scotland would be.

Half of Scotland seem to live in some dream world where the EU will listen to them more than they perceive the UK&NI government does.  Why would it?


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## Irish gal (29 August 2016)

Of course an independent Scotland will have more power than it currently does Buddy's Mum, it will then have to abide by the rules of the EU. No great problem for the other nations, apart of course from Britain. Listening to the anti EU stuff here it's like we're on parallel universes. Do you realise that the rest of Europe, and indeed the world, is looking on bemused with media commentators analysing the completely biased Brexit coverage that went and continues to go on in Britain. 
Ever thought of googling the New York Times - as I said, parallel universes!

Scotland Ybcm, doesn't need a whole pile of influence in the EU to be successful. If Scotland's tiny then spare a thought for Luxembourg - population 500,000 and doing very nicely, thanks. One of the highest standards of living in Europe, an international banking centre: and exactly what Scotland itself could become as an independent EU member, offering a gateway to EU trade, the position currently enjoyed by London. So what if it's subsidised by the EU, it will control its own affairs finally - the level of EU control couldn't possibly compare with that currently exercised by Westminister.

The EU isn't an empire Ybcm, it's a federation of states. Ireland isn't "told what to do", we abide by the rules of the club, that's what membership entails. We agreed to that austerity budget, it's controversial and there's a lot that could be said but that's beyond the scope of this post.

I have to say that when I read lines like that "low corporation tax" is Ireland's 'chief asset', I really struggle to find an explanation beyond the blindingly obvious. Why should I be surprised though, after a whole thread dedicated to running the Scots into the ground.

Of course that's how colonialism works and its operating here in this thread. Wow, it really is something to see! It goes something like this: for the UK to remain intact, providing the English with a bigger country, the Scots have to be convinced of their inferior status. That's done by constantly telling them that they couldn't manage, or as one poster put it - 'can't stand on their own two feet', that their leaders are useless, the country is a liability and it just couldn't survive without England to prop it up.

But just saying that is no good. No, the real magic happens when the Scots then internalise those beliefs and hold them as their own. And that folks is how the pretty world of colonisation works. That's not by opinion btw, it the accepted theory of colonisation now studied in academia. For anyone interested in the mental constructs that prop it up, and the mental toll it takes on host nations then psychiatrist Franz Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth, is well worth the read.

There is nothing standing between the Scots and independence only their own self belief - which naturally is being done no favours on this thread!!





ycbm said:



			Because it's impossible to see how that would be the case? For a start, Scotland would have to join the Euro. If they are to join the Euro, their desired socialist budget financed by debt will go straight out of the window. For a second, Scotland is tiny and will be a net taker from the EU purse. How much influence will that give them? What influence does Ireland have? They had an austerity budget imposed on them and their chief asset, low corporation tax, is soon to be removed from them. Ireland are told what to do by the EU just as Scotland would be.

Half of Scotland seem to live in some dream world where the EU will listen to them more than they perceive the UK&NI government does.  Why would it?
		
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## ycbm (29 August 2016)

Luxembourg was filthy rich, from being a tax haven, long before the EU ever existed. The EU is actively looking at how it can stop Luxemburg from helping companies like Paypal and Amazon avoid paying taxes to the rest of the EU members.

What is standing between Scotland and independence is a gigantic hole in their finances currently filled by other parts of the UK and borrowing. A budget defect currently estimated by the Institute of Fiscal Studies as three times  that of the rest of the UK.

If the EU is run equally by its members, why is it reported in the serious press that negotiations for Brexit cannot start until the French and German national  elections are complete? Why does Germany decide what happens to Greece? I could go on but you don't want to see what an undemocratic club it is that you are a member of.

Colonialist repression? How hilarious that you see it that way. Most of the people I know would love Scotland to push  off and support themselves.


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## Judgemental (29 August 2016)

Irish gal said:



			There is nothing standing between the Scots and independence only their own self belief - which naturally is being done no favours on this thread!!
		
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The SNP and the subject person are the issue on this thread, because she and her minions ratted on a deal over the Hunting Act 2004, in the context of English Votes for English Laws.

That said, the Scots have one or two fences to jump before they could consider Independence.

1. Rosyth

2.Trident

3.The necessary handouts from the Barnett Consequential Formula

4. The lack of foreseeable income from North Sea Oil 

to name but a few

Sturgeon needs to think rationally and consider her long term position, particularly her perceived lack of patriotism.


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## Buddy'sMum (29 August 2016)

ycbm said:



			What is standing between Scotland and independence is a gigantic hole in their finances currently filled by other parts of the UK and borrowing. A budget defect currently estimated by the Institute of Fiscal Studies as three times  that of the rest of the UK.
		
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And why does Scotland have such a deficit in her public spending budget? Because the Scottish government is building new schools and hospitals and improving public transport. Shameful. 



ycbm said:



			Most of the people I know would love Scotland to push  off and support themselves.
		
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 And most of the Scots I know would quite like to have a chance to do just that. 
If we're such a liability, ycbm, and you want rid of us so badly, why did our new PM do a Usain Bolt up to Edinburgh before she'd even unpacked at No. 10?


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## ycbm (29 August 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			And why does Scotland have such a deficit in her public spending budget? Because the Scottish government is building new schools and hospitals and improving public transport. Shameful. 



 And most of the Scots I know would quite like to have a chance to do just that. 
If we're such a liability, ycbm, and you want rid of us so badly, why did our new PM do a Usain Bolt up to Edinburgh before she'd even unpacked at No. 10?
		
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It's easy to build schools on borrowed money. Money that's able to be borrowed because of the strength of the economy outside Scotland.  It's paying it back that's the problem and the rest of the country is paying the interest for you. Unfortunately we're nowhere near being able to start paying the capital back,  it just keeps going up every single month. 

Scotland voted overwhelmingly not to exit the EU. Are you complaining that efforts are being made to reconcile those differences?

I don't want rid of you but I do wish you'd stop complaining about how hard done by you are while you spend my taxes on things the English don't have,  like free degree level education.


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## popsdosh (30 August 2016)

Irish gal you must be so pleased with the EU today poking its nose into Irish tax affairs and telling the Irish government that they are breaking EU rules by letting all theses lovely multinationals off paying taxes. Money that could be used by the people of ireland.
If you think the EU bailout has nothing to do with Scotland they will head down exactly the same road you and Greece did spending what what you havent got because mummy EU will protect us thats fine till you push it to far and then your grounded.
I doubt your aware that the SNP budgets for Scotland shows huge deficits into the future and what is missing from these projections there is no money in these budgets for defence ,maybe they dont need any because who in their right mind would want to tangle with NS. 
Whats more who in their right mind will lend them this money without the rest of the UK standing as security NS is not stupid and is fully aware that her only hope of staying afloat financially is attached to the UK however is using the independence vote as a bargaining chip which to her surprise is not as powerful as she thinks. The more she bleats on about it the more people south of the border say cut them, lose and let them get on with it. If we had a UK vote on scottish independence you would get it easily I dont know many south of the border that would want to keep you as we see the inequity that the agreement brings about.


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## popsdosh (30 August 2016)

I am not anti Scot by the way ,its just that the unfairness of the formula allows a breed of politics that was kicked into touch years ago outside Scotland because it got the uk into huge debt and was unsustainable. We all know Jeremy Corbyn is unelectable in the UK however NS is to his left!!!!


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## popsdosh (30 August 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			And why does Scotland have such a deficit in her public spending budget? Because the Scottish government is building new schools and hospitals and improving public transport. Shameful. 



 And most of the Scots I know would quite like to have a chance to do just that. 
If we're such a liability, ycbm, and you want rid of us so badly, why did our new PM do a Usain Bolt up to Edinburgh before she'd even unpacked at No. 10?
		
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Dont know what was said ! However NS has come down off her high horse a bit since ,I suppose the reason for that maybe she was put in her place. NS will find TM a more formidably adversary than the previous regime. Perhaps they just need a way for NS to save face ,whichever one shes using today!


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## Alec Swan (30 August 2016)

Buddy'sMum said:



			And why does Scotland have such a deficit in her public spending budget? Because the Scottish government is building new schools and hospitals and improving public transport. Shameful. 

..
		
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And from where do you suppose that this funding originates?  Is it from Scotland's own ability to raise the necessary funding?  I'd be surprised.  No one expects gratitude in any form,  just an acceptance that Scotland cannot stand on it's own,  without funding and assistance.

Alec.


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## Lizzie66 (30 August 2016)

Irish gal said:



			And yes Ybcm, our corporation tax here has attracted big multinationals, exactly the types that all European capitals hope to attract as they bring in so much money and high level employment - just what any economy needs.
		
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Well it appears that the EU (the one that doesn't influence the way things are run in Ireland) has declared the tax arrangement that Eire has with Apple as illegal under EU rules and that the back tax that may amount to somewhere in the region of 13bn Euros will need paying by Apple. apparently the Government of Eire / Republic of Ireland plan to appeal.

So the idea of an independent Scotland becoming some type of tax haven to attract business seems unlikely to be a workable one within the EU structure.


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## Judgemental (30 August 2016)

Lizzie66 said:



			Well it appears that the EU (the one that doesn't influence the way things are run in Ireland) has declared the tax arrangement that Eire has with Apple as illegal under EU rules and that the back tax that may amount to somewhere in the region of 13bn Euros will need paying by Apple. apparently the Government of Eire / Republic of Ireland plan to appeal.

So the idea of an independent Scotland becoming some type of tax haven to attract business seems unlikely to be a workable one within the EU structure.
		
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Exactly Lizzie, it brings a whole new meaning to the notion of MacGoogle (Scotland) Ltd with their European Headquarters on Princes' Street Edinburgh


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## Irish gal (30 August 2016)

Lizzie66 said:



			Well it appears that the EU (the one that doesn't influence the way things are run in Ireland) has declared the tax arrangement that Eire has with Apple as illegal under EU rules and that the back tax that may amount to somewhere in the region of 13bn Euros will need paying by Apple. apparently the Government of Eire / Republic of Ireland plan to appeal.

So the idea of an independent Scotland becoming some type of tax haven to attract business seems unlikely to be a workable one within the EU structure.
		
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Let's have a little chat about tax havens Lizzie, shall we? We'll call it tax havens 101.

Question: Where are the world's most notorious tax havens?

Answer: In British controlled territories. Yip that's right Lizzie those cute little British controlled tax havens like the Virgin Islands, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Isle of Man and Jersey

How much money is involved? Tens of trillions, it is estimated.

You do raise an interesting point in a roundabout way though; there is a chance of Scotland being turned into a tax haven - that could happen by remaining in the UK. Let's face it, when it comes to tax havens no nation on earth has more form than Britain The last PM's own father made great use of them, surely you heard about that? Panama Papers, anyone? Oh I forgot, posters here just ignore facts that don't sit nicely into the narrarative of English nationalism. Instead they just throw mud at other nations.


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## ycbm (30 August 2016)

Irish gal said:



			Let's have a little chat about tax havens Lizzie, shall we? We'll call it tax havens 101.

Question: Where are the world's most notorious tax havens?

Answer: In British controlled territories. Yip that's right Lizzie those cute little British controlled tax havens like the Virgin Islands, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Isle of Man and Jersey

How much money is involved? Tens of trillions, it is estimated.

You do raise an interesting point in a roundabout way though; there is a chance of Scotland being turned into a tax haven - that could happen by remaining in the UK. Let's face it, when it comes to tax havens no nation on earth has more form than Britain The last PM's own father made great use of them, surely you heard about that? Panama Papers, anyone? Oh I forgot, posters here just ignore facts that don't sit nicely into the narrarative of English nationalism. Instead they just throw mud at other nations.
		
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Irish Gal you've missed the point. It's not about whether tax havens are right or wrong, it's about whether they are legal or illegal. The British colonial tax havens are legal. The EU has just declared the Irish tax evasion illegal. And since much of the recovery you keep reminding us of in the Irish economy was as a result of what are now declared to be illegal subsidies, where does that now leave Ireland, or an independent Scotland?


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## Irish gal (30 August 2016)

Buddy's Mum - so the Usain Bolt by TM wasn't lost on you either!

Posters you see, have worked themselves into a frenzy about Ireland's corporate tax. I'm well used to it here. Let's face it what has that got to with Scottish Independence - nothing. It's just a big deflection from the raison d'etre of this thread, which is that English nationalism cannot countenance Scotland leaving.

Everything that TM did immediately after her election highlights this. What was her speech about outside No 10. A close analysis shows the most important elements were about preserving the union. She was at her most animated announcing herself as leader of "the conservative and Unionist party".

What was all that about. Very simply she was rebranding the party to give preservation of the union greater importance than anything else. We all know that the party is not generally known by that name, it's not used in normal parlance, it has been used in the past, but why resurrect it now??

She spouted a whole load of waffle about the equality of all the people in the UK and of the other wonderful countries like Scotland. Next day she dashed north, ahead of any other engagement or dealing with the EU crisis. She had to stop NS in her tracks and tell her - not withstanding that most Scots now wanted out, and Scotland's supposedly equal - that a second referendum was out. So much for equality -buts let's face it what equality did a colony ever have.

Since then there's been a constant churning out of articles against independence. They're from the London based press who of course have a massive bias against Scotland going. Everyone is kept well up to speed with them thanks to the Trojan work on this thread of Judgemental. You must be on a Westminister retainer at this stage J!?

If Scotland goes so will NI, it will probably go anyway, and what will happen to poor old England. Brexit was all about putting the 'great' back in GB but instead it is succeeding in turning Britain into half a small island, with all the consequent loss of status and prestige. 

This is an outcome that cannot be countenanced. They had to leave the EU because they couldn't have a dominant role. Couldn't play by the rules and wanted special treatment. Couldn't get it and flounced out. Now though, as a consequence, they stand to lose the UK.

They will do anything to avoid that happening. And I will bet that if Scotland opts out in a new vote, TM will do a u turn on Brexit to avoid it happening. If this is so unimportant to the English, with posters saying how Scotland can "push off", why are they night and day posting here for over a month and a half, drumming into the Scots how it's not possible?? Why bother, why indeed. It makes no sense except in the context I'm outlining.

Scotland has never had more power then it does at this moment. It has the power to disolve the Union, something that is dreaded more than all else. It's in a really, really strong position in a union politically weighted against it. Quite an exceptional and unique place to be. Scotland's time has come.


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## Lizzie66 (30 August 2016)

Irish gal said:



			Let's have a little chat about tax havens Lizzie, shall we? We'll call it tax havens 101.

Question: Where are the world's most notorious tax havens?

Answer: In British controlled territories. Yip that's right Lizzie those cute little British controlled tax havens like the Virgin Islands, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Isle of Man and Jersey

How much money is involved? Tens of trillions, it is estimated.

You do raise an interesting point in a roundabout way though; there is a chance of Scotland being turned into a tax haven - that could happen by remaining in the UK. Let's face it, when it comes to tax havens no nation on earth has more form than Britain The last PM's own father made great use of them, surely you heard about that? Panama Papers, anyone? Oh I forgot, posters here just ignore facts that don't sit nicely into the narrarative of English nationalism. Instead they just throw mud at other nations.
		
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Missing the point again Irish gal . Let me make it clearer, my post was aimed at the fact that the EU has overruled the Eire Government on its tax policies despite your protestations that the EU does not interfere in the running of your Country. I only mentioned Scotland because your post had said that they would be able to operate in a similar way to your country which is true they would, however this would not include setting themselves as a tax haven as the EU wouldn't allow it. 

You appear to have a major chip on your shoulder based on historical acts that I imagine well predate your birth, surely life is to be lived in the present and for the future. With the past (especially that older than most peoples living memories) becoming consigned to the history books.


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## Alec Swan (30 August 2016)

I heard a newsflash today and though I may have got the wrong end of the stick,  either Apple have offered or they've been ordered to pay to Ireland £MILLIONS in unpaid taxes.

If what I heard was correct,  presumably those taxes due were from sales in England too.  I wonder if we'll see any of it?  What do you think Irish gal,  time for a balancing of the books? 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (30 August 2016)

Sorry,  a correction,  it wasn't £Millions,  but 13 Billion euros!  (See below).

The reason why Apple transferred all revenues to Ireland and from the UK was to avoid the Tax levies due here in the UK.  Perhaps Ireland can now be added to the Cayman Island tax havens! 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...A1OUGW1yBFjJeezQw&sig2=pDxUzSXKNFnHODziHN9DAg

Alec.


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## Judgemental (31 August 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Sorry,  a correction,  it wasn't £Millions,  but 13 Billion euros!  (See below).

The reason why Apple transferred all revenues to Ireland and from the UK was to avoid the Tax levies due here in the UK.  Perhaps Ireland can now be added to the Cayman Island tax havens! 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...A1OUGW1yBFjJeezQw&sig2=pDxUzSXKNFnHODziHN9DAg

Alec.
		
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Alec I see Apple are going to 'apeel' hopefully they get some core values, if not, it's enough to give one the pip. :greedy:
Very much an EU Apple Strudel.


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## popsdosh (31 August 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			I heard a newsflash today and though I may have got the wrong end of the stick,  either Apple have offered or they've been ordered to pay to Ireland £MILLIONS in unpaid taxes.

If what I heard was correct,  presumably those taxes due were from sales in England too.  I wonder if we'll see any of it?  What do you think Irish gal,  time for a balancing of the books? 

Alec.
		
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Yes indeed Alec the SCAM and thats what it is involved all sales of apple products sold within europe effectively being sold from Ireland with a ficticious sales person in Dublin. I am surprised that Irish Gal is not raising the roof with why arent we getting whats due to us. In 2014 they effectively paid 50( yes fifty) euros in tax on every million that was subject to tax . Maybe Irish Gal is paying the same rate? The large multi nationals seam to play by their own rules . 13 Billion for all their protestations is merely petty cash to Apple as they have many times that in cash reserves that they desperately are trying to keep away from any tax authority. The amount owed would run the Irish health system for a full 12 months . Do you honestly not feel short changed Irish Gal. What I find extraordinary is your government accepts this when for the last few years you have been in economic meltdown ,maybe now your people actually are aware of what they are getting away with your leaders may have to change their attitude because I am sure some of the Government protest are because Apple effectively have told them to bark. The Americans are squealing as well not because they think its unfair to tax that money but because they want it!!!! Why do all these Governments pussy foot around the multi nationals. Next thing we will be hearing about all the things Apple do for charity well I could if I didnt pay any tax.
I must admit I had to chuckle after we had been told the EU do not interfere in sovereign government issues for this to raise its head!! Could not have been better timing to remind people of the powers that Brussels holds over all of us and just for a change they have done something creditable!


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## Judgemental (2 September 2016)

I simply do not understand the agenda that Sturgeon and the SNP seem to be following, especially in light of the subject person's speech in Sterling.

Please could one or several of you bright Scot's people explain.

I say that in the certain knowledge VAT on home heating and fuel is going to be reduced to virtually nothing, whereas the EU insists the level is a minimum of what 7% give or take.

Then there is Barnett which would vanish, amongst other things, coupled to huge amounts of money Scotland would be required to contribute to the EU.

Just don't understand.


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## Goldenstar (2 September 2016)

Irish gal said:



			Let's have a little chat about tax havens Lizzie, shall we? We'll call it tax havens 101.

Question: Where are the world's most notorious tax havens?

Answer: In British controlled territories. Yip that's right Lizzie those cute little British controlled tax havens like the Virgin Islands, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Isle of Man and Jersey

How much money is involved? Tens of trillions, it is estimated.

You do raise an interesting point in a roundabout way though; there is a chance of Scotland being turned into a tax haven - that could happen by remaining in the UK. Let's face it, when it comes to tax havens no nation on earth has more form than Britain The last PM's own father made great use of them, surely you heard about that? Panama Papers, anyone? Oh I forgot, posters here just ignore facts that don't sit nicely into the narrarative of English nationalism. Instead they just throw mud at other nations.
		
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Who cares what the former prime ministers father did its in no relevant to this debate .
I have no idea what your saying about English nationalism on here why can't the English express views it's considered fine for the Irish or Scottish to do .
Surely it just fair .
The Irish / Apple thing is not played out yet .
The money if it's ever paid will be going from Ireland to the countries that the EU judge it should have been paid in Ireland will just be the European tax collector .
As for Scotland as a tax haven I think there's little chance of that with the SN's in charge .
The U.K. is coming out of the EU I would love to understand why , except financial self interest the SN's are so keen Staying in the EU with all the loss of control it entails ,  while  remaining so anti in a union that they entered into freely ( but admittedly bankrupt ) over two hundred years ago.


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## Alec Swan (2 September 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Who cares what the former prime ministers father did its in no relevant to this debate . &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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But it is relevant.  The former prime minister will inherit that wealth,  the wealth that was quite legally squirrelled away,  upon his mother's death,  and the best bit is that very same former prime minister was (though I doubt still is) up in arms over these loopholes,  loopholes from which he will benefit,  one day.

It's entirely relevant,  I'd say! 

Alec.


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## Goldenstar (2 September 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			But it is relevant.  The former prime minister will inherit that wealth,  the wealth that was quite legally squirrelled away,  upon his mother's death,  and the best bit is that very same former prime minister was (though I doubt still is) up in arms over these loopholes,  loopholes from which he will benefit,  one day.


It's entirely relevant,  I'd say! 

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Relevant to apples tax affairs within europe ,it's just not .


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## Judgemental (2 September 2016)

Bearing in mind Sturgeon now favors the German Flag alongside the Saltier at Burk House, instead of the Union Flag, one cannot help wondering if their is a tincture of treason on the air, especially in the light of the following.

"'SHAMELESS' Sturgeon's latest independence drive could be ILLEGAL, say furious Tories

CALLS for an urgent investigation to be carried out into whether the Scottish National Party&#8217;s new independence initiative breaks election laws have been made.

PUBLISHED: 15:17, Fri, Sep 2, 2016 | UPDATED: 19:26, Fri, Sep 2, 2016
Ruth Davidson/ Nicola Sturgeon/ Scottish flagGETTY
Scot Tories claimed the national survey launched by Sturgeon is a a "potential breach" of the law
Scottish Conservatives have written to the Electoral Commission claiming the national survey launched by First Minister Nicola Sturgeon is a "potential breach" of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000".


Frankly the SNP and Sturgeon are making complete bl..dy fools of the Scots and Scotland and it's time responsible people in Scotland stopped this nonsense.

It will not surprise me if she faces charges or indeed is arrested.

This subject must be a major issue in the minds of many, bearing in mind this thread has now exceeded 20,000 views.



Punishment of offences of a "potential breach" of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000".

(1)Schedule 20 makes provision for the punishment of offences under this Act.
(2)In relation to an offence under any provision specified in the first column of that Schedule, the second column shows&#8212;
(a)whether the offence is punishable on summary conviction only or is punishable either on summary conviction or on conviction on indictment; and
(b)the maximum punishment (or, in the case of a fine on a conviction on indictment, the punishment) which may be imposed by way of fine or imprisonment on a person convicted of the offence in the way specified;
and, where that column shows two alternative penalties that may be imposed on a person convicted in the way specified, as a further alternative both of those penalties may be imposed on him.
(3)In the second column of that Schedule&#8212;
(a)&#8220;Level 5&#8221; means a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale;
(b)&#8220;statutory maximum&#8221; means a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum; and
(c)any reference to [F151 weeks,] 1 year or 6 months is a reference to a term of imprisonment not exceeding [F151 weeks,] 1 year or 6 months (as the case may be).


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## ester (2 September 2016)

It will not surprise me if she faces charges or indeed is arrested.
		
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surely that is the other way round, one is indeed arrested then faces charges....


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## Judgemental (2 September 2016)

ester said:



			surely that is the other way round, one is indeed arrested then faces charges....
		
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Depending on how one reads the act, in any event and which ever way one wants to look at the legislation.

Yes one is arrested and then charged. (Picky)

Clearly there are serious sanctions for such an offence, including imprisonment exceeding a year!


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## Roasted Chestnuts (3 September 2016)

So in light of this new rant by May about how the NHS will be privatised by 40% in the next four years what are we thinking? Very Margaret Thatcher like no? Blaming the workers for the downfall of the NHS despite the severe austerity that is throttling our public services, so we have sturgeon up here trying to better our public services and south of the border we have a government selling to the highest bidder. Sorry but I know where would rather be and I'm afraid it's up here. 

Then again my brothers offer to go live on NZ is becoming increasingly appealing with the money grabbing barsteward Tories running the country to its knees


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## Buddy'sMum (3 September 2016)

Judgemental said:



			"'SHAMELESS' Sturgeon's latest independence drive could be ILLEGAL, say furious Tories

CALLS for an urgent investigation to be carried out into whether the Scottish National Partys new independence initiative breaks election laws have been made.

PUBLISHED: 15:17, Fri, Sep 2, 2016 | UPDATED: 19:26, Fri, Sep 2, 2016
Ruth Davidson/ Nicola Sturgeon/ Scottish flagGETTY
Scot Tories claimed the national survey launched by Sturgeon is a a "potential breach" of the law
Scottish Conservatives have written to the Electoral Commission claiming the national survey launched by First Minister Nicola Sturgeon is a "potential breach" of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000".


Frankly the SNP and Sturgeon are making complete bl..dy fools of the Scots and Scotland and it's time responsible people in Scotland stopped this nonsense.

It will not surprise me if she faces charges or indeed is arrested.
		
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Before you get all over excited at the prospect of the First Minister being hauled off to Barlinnie, Judgemental, the Electoral Commission has already ruled that this does not breach campaign law:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...-electoral-law-after-tory-challenge-1-4219732

Bit pathetic of the Tories, really. But to be expected, because, well, Tories


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## Buddy'sMum (3 September 2016)

Black Beastie said:



			So in light of this new rant by May about how the NHS will be privatised by 40% in the next four years what are we thinking? Very Margaret Thatcher like no? Blaming the workers for the downfall of the NHS despite the severe austerity that is throttling our public services, so we have sturgeon up here trying to better our public services and south of the border we have a government selling to the highest bidder. Sorry but I know where would rather be and I'm afraid it's up here. 

Then again my brothers offer to go live on NZ is becoming increasingly appealing with the money grabbing barsteward Tories running the country to its knees
		
Click to expand...

Also to be expected, because, well, Tories. Some people never learn!


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## ester (3 September 2016)

Not picky, just like to see some accuracy in between the hysteria. You made it sound as though being arrested is much worse than being charged. That is just wrong.


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## Judgemental (3 September 2016)

ester said:



			Not picky, just like to see some accuracy in between the hysteria. You made it sound as though being arrested is much worse than being charged. That is just wrong.
		
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Oh dear where is it all going to end. :rolleyes3:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/70...on-as-internet-compares-SNP-to-Les-Miserables

"Negative and WRONG Ridicule for Sturgeon as internet compares SNP to Les Miserables

IF NICOLA Sturgeon thought her press conference to woo the Scots to join her bid to break up Britain was a success then she underestimated the power of the internet.

By SIOBHAN MCFADYEN
PUBLISHED: 21:07, Fri, Sep 2, 2016 | UPDATED: 21:30, Fri, Sep 2, 2016
Les Miserables meme was just one which popped up onlineGETTY
Les Miserables meme was just one which popped up online
Hysterical memes cropped up online with thousands of people queuing up to take pot shots at Ms Sturgeon and her predecessor Alex Salmond who has been keeping mum of late.

Ms Sturgeon used her platform to broadcast threatening messages to the rest of the UK and to ignore the democratic vote by insisting she would once again hatch a plan to break up Britain.

But her ill judged comments have only led to a massive backlash even drawing comparisons to the Victor Hugo novel Les Miserables which was written in in 1862"

The last people to threaten the British people were the inimical duo Cameron and Osborne. They have ended up as toast.


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## Buddy'sMum (3 September 2016)

Judgemental said:



			Oh dear where is it all going to end. :rolleyes3:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/70...on-as-internet-compares-SNP-to-Les-Miserables

"&#8216;Negative and WRONG&#8217; Ridicule for Sturgeon as internet compares SNP to Les Miserables

IF NICOLA Sturgeon thought her press conference to woo the Scots to join her bid to break up Britain was a success then she underestimated the power of the internet.
		
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So "the internet compares SNP to Les Miserables" does it?? What the 'journalist' actually meant to say was "British Sovereignty & Heritage magazine posts a pot shot at the SNP on its Facebook page".

More award winning writing from the Daily Express


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## popsdosh (14 October 2016)

https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/videos/1187636234604996/


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## Goldenstar (14 October 2016)

popsdosh said:



https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/videos/1187636234604996/

Click to expand...

Poor gorilla most unfair .


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## popsdosh (15 October 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Poor gorilla most unfair .
		
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However a similar attempt at independence!! Tranquillisers may be needed again!


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## Judgemental (15 October 2016)

popsdosh said:



			However a similar attempt at independence!! Tranquillisers may be needed again!
		
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One did wonder whether Gorilla or in the form of Guerrilla might be appropriate, a sort of latter day Che Guevara, leading an insurent tartan group of street fighters.

Frankly she is a silly little girl way out of her class and depth. At the same time making a fool of the Scottish people.


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## dibbin (15 October 2016)

... how is this thread still alive?!?!


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## Judgemental (15 October 2016)

dibbin said:



			... how is this thread still alive?!?! 

Click to expand...

Courtesy of the BBC - was it a mistake or was it deliberate

https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/videos/1187636234604996/

Tell me Dibbin, is the Scots accent of the Subject Person normal? It's very irritating. One does like a classy or sophisticated lilt to the Scots Brogue.


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## Judgemental (18 October 2016)

Does this young lady know what she is about..........

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/72...d-tells-her-to-RESPECT-the-will-of-the-people

"America slaps down Sturgeon and tells her to RESPECT the will of the British people

NICOLA Sturgeon's dreams to shore up support for Scottish independence have suffered a blow after the White House once again reiterated its desire for the country to stay in the UK".


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## Judgemental (21 October 2016)

Wonder if the subject person makes her bed, does the washing up or cleans the house and knows how to use a vacuum cleaner 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/72...ed-own-constituency-govanhill-slum-crime-rats

Sturgeon grilled by furious residents in her OWN CONSTITUENCY left looking like a SLUM

NICOLA Sturgeon was subjected to two hours&#8217; of questioning today from her own constituents - who asked why their neighbourhood was covered in rubbish, being overrun by rats and dangerous for women.

By JOEY MILLAR
PUBLISHED: 00:00, Fri, Oct 21, 2016 | UPDATED: 07:22, Fri, Oct 21, 2016


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## Judgemental (26 October 2016)

dibbin said:



			... how is this thread still alive?!?! 

Click to expand...

Please would one of you bright young, or perhaps not so young Scots explain Sturgeon and the SNP, in relation to the UK.

Yesterday we learnt as a result of the announcement, concerning the new runway at Heathrow, that £450,000,000.00 (four hundred and fifty million pounds) worth of Scottish Salmon is shipped through Heathrow annually. Presumably there is relatively large quantities of whisky etc. Along with a variety of other goods originating and manufactured in Scotland.

That everybody in Scotland welcomed the plan and that they, the Scots could not function without Heathrow and the ability to have the capacity for large long haul flights, which seemingly Scottish airports would have difficulty handling.

As that is the case, why is Sturgeon and the SNP doing their very best to p..s the UK government off.

Frankly unless Sturgeon and the SNP start behaving sensibly, they should be prevented from shipping through UK ports and Barnett Consequential is abandoned. 

In other words no co-operation no money!

Notwithstanding the fact if Scotland was an EU member state they would have to adopt the Euro. 

Are these people who peddle independence and membership of the EU mentally balanced?


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## Judgemental (14 March 2017)

dibbin said:



			... how is this thread still alive?!?! 

Click to expand...

Ask Ms Sturgeon. 

Always thought she would come back for a second innings.

May be one of the erudite and liberal intelligentsia and or the good right wing down to earth folk, who are our kindred spirits, can shed some light on Scottish Independence and their Army, Airforce and Navy. 

In a nut shell who is going to provide their defence force?


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## Snuffles (15 March 2017)

They wont need one, why would anyone want to attack Scotland !


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## Judgemental (15 March 2017)

Snuffles said:



			They wont need one, why would anyone want to attack Scotland !
		
Click to expand...

Faslane


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## Isbister (15 March 2017)

Nicola Sturgeon has been likened to two creatures recently:

i) a silverback gorilla
ii) the lovechild of a Bay City Roller and a Shetland pony.

The second was by Allison Pearson in today's Telegraph. Her article pretty much says all that needs to be said on the subject of a second referendum.


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## Buddy'sMum (16 March 2017)

Judgemental said:



			Faslane
		
Click to expand...

Hate to point out the obvious, Judgemental, but an independent Scotland wouldn't have Trident parked at Faslane - it'd be somewhere on the south coast of England.


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## Judgemental (16 March 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Hate to point out the obvious, Judgemental, but an independent Scotland wouldn't have Trident parked at Faslane - it'd be somewhere on the south coast of England.
		
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I always enjoy that argument about our nuclear deterrent base at Faslane

Firstly the House of Commons passed a bill last autumn renewing the facility for the next 50 years.

Secondly in the very unlikely event it would be removed, Scotland would have to foot the bill for removal and decommissioning, which they cannot afford.

Thirdly the Americans have a fairly large interest and say in strategic command and whilst there are those who are stupid enough, not to want to retain our nuclear operational base etc, the Americans would not listen to any views expressed by Scotland.

Fourthly it is at Faslane and it will not be going anywhere. The Scots will do as they are told and put up and shut up and remember that they are part of the United Kingdom just like the rest of us.

As for the girl from Irvine, I gather she has changed her tune very rapidly, indeed in the last 48 hours, over so called Independence but exactly why is unclear. I would speculate she has been taken aside, indeed taken to a tall mountain and shown the 'promised land' which is a rather desolate and very expensive landscape. Coupled to being told to cease being unpatriotic and making trouble or life might just be very uncomfortable. personally and politically. British governments are always very patient until pushed too far and then they say enough is enough, especially when it is by British nationals on mainland United Kingdom.

Frankly and very bluntly, all these people (Remoaners) who want to be part of Europe, I suggest they pack their bags and depart the United Kingdom from wherever they are lucky enough to live. Romania might be appropriate for Remoaners:cool3:


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## Buddy'sMum (16 March 2017)

Blah blah blah. An independent Scotland would not have Trident at Faslane. Or anywhere else in Scotland. Fact.


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## Buddy'sMum (16 March 2017)

Isbister said:



			Nicola Sturgeon has been likened to two creatures recently:

i) a silverback gorilla
ii) the lovechild of a Bay City Roller and a Shetland pony.

The second was by Allison Pearson in today's Telegraph. Her article pretty much says all that needs to be said on the subject of a second referendum.
		
Click to expand...

The article by Ms Pearson was a load of drivel. But then that's to be expected from a chick lit author writing in the Women's Lifestyle section of the Telegraph.

I see that the Telegraph didn't have the courage of its convictions and replaced the original heading of the article, which was not only libellous but suggested that the elected First Minister of Scotland should be beheaded!


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## fburton (16 March 2017)

Isbister said:



			lovechild of a Bay City Roller and a Shetland pony
		
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Discusting! :frown3:


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## Judgemental (16 March 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Blah blah blah. An independent Scotland would not have Trident at Faslane. Or anywhere else in Scotland. Fact.
		
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Buddy'sMum you are so sweet.

There is the small matter of Barnett Consequential and the £10,152.00 per head of population in Scotland, that is paid by way of annual subsidy by the government.

I know for a fact that where there to be no Faslane, there would be no subsidy and as Scottish Oil is now next to  worthless, the devolved assembly  in Holyrood would be unable to function in the governance of the all the various costs, generated in running Scotland.

Notwithstanding the huge economic financial infrastructure that Faslane contributes to the Scottish economy.

Of course, the fact the matter of Ms Sturgeon and this thread continues is in part due to her dishonest conduct concerning English Votes for English laws. When she said at the time of the General Election the SNP would stand aside from any vote concerning hunting in England and Wales.

Allowing the Hunting Act 2004 to mirror that of Scotland.

Had she honoured that commitment, then the H of C could have easily amended the Hunting Act 2004 under The Statutory Instrument. Thus amongst other things, allowing the big herds of Red Deer, to be moved and or dispersed on the moors in Devon and Somerset. Also moved off the small farms in and around the moors where they do immense damage to forestry and grass.


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## Buddy'sMum (16 March 2017)

Judgemental said:



			There is the small matter of Barnett Consequential and the £10,152.00 per head of population in Scotland, that is paid by way of annual subsidy by the government.

I know for a fact that where there to be no Faslane, there would be no subsidy
		
Click to expand...

Why are you blethering about Barnett? You do understand that if Scotland gains independence, Westminster would not be responsible for allocating public expenditure funding to Scotland, don't you?


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## Judgemental (16 March 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Why are you blethering about Barnett? You do understand that if Scotland gains independence, Westminster would not be responsible for allocating public expenditure funding to Scotland, don't you?
		
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Yes I most certainly do and you will not have enough money to run the country. Scotland relies on charity from the UK government to survive.

It will revert to a country where children are wandering the streets of the Gorbals barefoot and in tatters. Begging for food on the streets. Because there will be such high unemployment,  the Scottish Government will not be able to pay their parents unemployment benefit at a sustainable rate. 

Companies will move south of the border in their thousands and investment by overseas companies will dry up.

Still I suppose there is one good thing, we won't have to put up with all those pesky SNP MP's in the H of C


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## Buddy'sMum (16 March 2017)

My, Judgemental, you do have quite the imagination, don't you?


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## Judgemental (16 March 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			My, Judgemental, you do have quite the imagination, don't you? 

Click to expand...

Look let's be very serious.

 The EU won't have Scotland as a member. Whatever they say, they know Scotland cannot afford the membership fee. 

Mrs May has a huge pot of money about £100 billion with which to influence the EU and which the EU badly needs, some of which may or not be justly due to the EU, as part of the 'severance pay' i.e she can buy "lack of cooperation" towards the Scots by the EU.

Trust me it's all a financial impossibility, granted when oil was being pumped at the zenith of the it's price trajectory  it may have been possible to finance independence, but not any more.


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## alainax (16 March 2017)

Unsubscribing from this thread, it's went utterly bonkers.


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## Buddy'sMum (16 March 2017)

Judgemental said:



			Mrs May has a huge pot of money about £100 billion with which to influence the EU and which the EU badly needs, some of which may or not be justly due to the EU, as part of the 'severance pay' i.e she can buy "lack of cooperation" towards the Scots by the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Like I said, quite the imagination


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## Judgemental (16 March 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Like I said, quite the imagination 

Click to expand...

Imagination or not.

What is your view and as you appear to be a resident of Scotland.

There was a referendum only a year ago or was it two years, why another one.

Will the EU accept Scotland as a member?


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## Isbister (17 March 2017)

Mrs May has slapped down the request.

Scotland's public finances are actually in a worse state than Greece's. With the example of the EU's recent treatment of that country, as compared with the generous support the Scots receive courtesy of English taxpayers, their choice of which union offers the better terms should be easy, provided they can overcome the latent and ever-present anti-English sentiment the nationalists are constantly trying to stir up.


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## Alec Swan (17 March 2017)

It would seem that the Indy Ref is following the same path as did the EU question of acceptance of the Euro,  by some.  We just keep asking the question until we get the answer that we want!

I'm reaching the point where I'd prefer that we who will remain,  simply force the separation upon Scotland.

Alec.


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## ycbm (17 March 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			It would seem that the Indy Ref is following the same path as did the EU question of acceptance of the Euro,  by some.  We just keep asking the question until we get the answer that we want!

I'm reaching the point where I'd prefer that we who will remain,  simply force the separation upon Scotland.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Me too. We're coming out. It's looking more and more likely that is actually going to happen. So let's negotiate our deal for the UK. Then Scots can have their vote on whether to stay with the UK as it then stands, or accept the kind of austerity budget that will cripple them as badly, or worse, than the southern states of the EU have been crippled,  in order to get away from England.

What's as sure as eggs is eggs is that in neither case is Scotland going to get the debt financed socialist utopia that the Nationalists want.


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## Snuffles (17 March 2017)

The news that the English are going to pay even more for prescriptions and dental fees while the other nations get it free should make them realise how well off they are in the Union !(the Scots I mean)

Tracey Ullman has got NS off to a T


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## cobgoblin (17 March 2017)

Salmond seems to have finally realised that Scotland will need it's own currency...I wonder how long it's going to take for him to realise that if Scotland is in Schengen (as it will have to be) that there will be a hard border.


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## Snuffles (17 March 2017)

Also TM has not said No to  another referendum only not now, so I don't really understand why NS et all are getting their kilts in a twist


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## Isbister (17 March 2017)

Personally I don't care if the Scots want independence - let them have it. They entered the union broke, and - thanks to their spendthrift politicians - they would leave it broke. 

Hoping to make a new home in the EU, and using the euro (which they would have to do), when most of Scotland's trade is with the UK which will soon be outside the EU, would only make matters worse for them. Greece without the sunshine.


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## Snuffles (17 March 2017)

I feel sorry for TM. She has been dropped in it big time by Call me Dave etc. I bet hes glad hes out of it all.Bet she wishes now she'd not taken on the job.


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## cobgoblin (17 March 2017)

Snuffles said:



			I feel sorry for TM. She has been dropped in it big time by Call me Dave etc. I bet hes glad hes out of it all.Bet she wishes now she'd not taken on the job.
		
Click to expand...

All TM has to do now is keep quiet and watch NS implode. 
Where is Dave?....I found him profoundly cowardly, resigning in a hissy fit after he said he would trigger article 50 immediately.


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## Judgemental (17 March 2017)

Snuffles said:



			I feel sorry for TM. She has been dropped in it big time by Call me Dave etc. I bet hes glad hes out of it all.Bet she wishes now she'd not taken on the job.
		
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I feel that the majority are of a similar opinion. Your sentiment may very well serve Mrs May quite effectively.

She is a very nice person and if there is one thing the British dislike, is somebody like Angus Robertson bullying Mrs May. Along with Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh acting like a yapping terrier at his side. 

Of course, neither Mrs May or any of her ministers are obliged to answer any questions from the SNP, indeed remaining silent and putting them into 'coventry' would be interesting. In other words comprehensively ignoring all their juvenile stupidity and repetitive questions. Not being on speaking terms with somebody, has a profound result and would be acutely embarrassing for the parliamentary SNP in the H of C.


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## Judgemental (19 March 2017)

It must be the oxygen of publicity or laughing gas....

According to the interview with Sophy Ridge on Sky:

Young Ms Sturgeon has no idea what currency Scotland should adopt.

She has fantasized about Scottish Independence since she was 15.

To cap it all she wants the remainder of the United Kingdom to provide Scottish defence when independent.

Does not want any of the Barnett Consequential money from the UK

Would somebody please explain what all these decent Scotsmen and women see in Nicola Sturgeon?


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## Buddy'sMum (20 March 2017)

Judgemental said:



			It must be the oxygen of publicity or laughing gas....

According to the interview with Sophy Ridge on Sky:

Young Ms Sturgeon has no idea what currency Scotland should adopt.

She has fantasized about Scottish Independence since she was 15.

To cap it all she wants the remainder of the United Kingdom to provide Scottish defence when independent.

Does not want any of the Barnett Consequential money from the UK

Would somebody please explain what all these decent Scotsmen and women see in Nicola Sturgeon?
		
Click to expand...

How about you stick to the facts, Judgemental? 

Here's a full transcript of the interview Judgemental is referring to, for anyone who is interested in what was actually said:

https://corporate.sky.com/media-cen...-sturgeon,-first-minister-of-scotland,-190317


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## Judgemental (20 March 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			How about you stick to the facts, Judgemental? 

Here's a full transcript of the interview Judgemental is referring to, for anyone who is interested in what was actually said:

https://corporate.sky.com/media-cen...-sturgeon,-first-minister-of-scotland,-190317

Click to expand...

Defence, Currency and Money, my comments are entirely accurate.

As for fantasizing about independence since Sturgeon was 15, no that is not mentioned but it was trailed earlier on Sky.

Still what ever Sturgeon says, I would not trust anything she says, bearing in mind her wholesale dishonesty over English Votes for English Laws and the Hunting Act 2004.

She really thinks the Defence of Scotland will be provided by England Wales and Northern Ireland in an independant 
Scotland!

Not a chance, she is wholly deluded. But then independence is a non-starter, the notion is joke.


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## ycbm (20 March 2017)

She really thinks the Defence of Scotland will be provided by England Wales and Northern Ireland in an independant
Scotland!

Not a chance, she is wholly deluded.
		
Click to expand...


But she's not deluded, is she?  Do you really think we would sit and let IS or N. Korea walk in and take over a country we share a relatively small island with?


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## Judgemental (20 March 2017)

ycbm said:



			But she's not deluded, is she?  Do you really think we would sit and let IS or N. Korea walk in and take over a country we share a relatively small island with?
		
Click to expand...

It's all or nothing and I hope the people of Scotland realise that.

Folk want independence, then off they go and look after themselves.

The old adages of "the grass is always greener" or "better the devil you know" etc could not be more appropriate.

If any country of organisation decides to invade or take over Scotland, so long as they don't come south of the border, best they get on with it.

In other words, Sturgeon is going to have have her own Army, Airforce and Navy paid for by the people of Scotland, one less bill for England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Also to become part of NATO and if President Trump has anything to do with it, every NATO member country pays their fair share of the defence budget.

Independence on those grounds alone are simply not feasible. Beats me why the subject is even up for discussion.


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## ycbm (20 March 2017)

Here's the situation, judgemental. 

Scotland have no army, navy, air force or any other form of defence.

ISIS announce that they are going to take Scotland as part of their Caliphate.

England sits there and lets them, builds a big wall on the border with armed sentries on it and patrols the sea around the border with gunboats and a shoot on sight policy.

It might be what you dream of at night, but seriously, does that sound in any way credible to you?

If Scotland simply choose to spend nothing on defence, England still has to defend the whole island, in its own self interest. Sturgeon knows that, she ain't stupid.


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## alainax (20 March 2017)

I very much like this young MP, I don't agree with all of her views, but her passion and honesty is refreshing.

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10154664178041939/


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## Buddy'sMum (20 March 2017)

Judgemental said:



			Defence, Currency and Money, my comments are entirely accurate.
		
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I wasn't talking about alternative facts, Judgemental 

Defence wasn't even discussed in the interview.

Re what currency an independent Scotland would use, the FM said that the pound within a currency union would be the starting point for discussions but that a Growth Commission is currently looking at currency options for Scotland. 

Why do you have so much trouble understanding that Westminster would not be responsible for allocating public expenditure funds to an independent Scotland?


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## Buddy'sMum (20 March 2017)

alainax said:



			I very much like this young MP, I don't agree with all of her views, but her passion and honesty is refreshing.

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10154664178041939/

Click to expand...

Same. Westminster needs a few more like her.


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## Buddy'sMum (20 March 2017)

Judgemental said:



			Also to become part of NATO and if President Trump has anything to do with it, every NATO member country pays their fair share of the defence budget.
		
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Eh? Every NATO member country DOES pay their fair share.

Alternative facts, an extreme dislike of the SNP and zero understanding of how NATO contributions work. Your name's not Donald, is it Judgemental?


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## ycbm (20 March 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Eh? Every NATO member country DOES pay their fair share.
		
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Unfortunately not true. Every country is supposed to spend 2% of GDP but most of them don't. Trump is right, they rely too much on the US.


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## cobgoblin (20 March 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Eh? Every NATO member country DOES pay their fair share.

Alternative facts, an extreme dislike of the SNP and zero understanding of how NATO contributions work. Your name's not Donald, is it Judgemental? 

Click to expand...

Only five countries spend the required 2% of GDP on defence...these are US, UK, Poland, Greece and Estonia.


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## Buddy'sMum (20 March 2017)

OK, I don't disagree, ycbm and cobgoblin. Germany in particular could and should pay more. But the 2% target is probably an unrealistic one for many of the smaller economies - just because they're not paying as much as the US doesn't mean they're not paying a fair share. Several of those  that don't currently meet the 2% target are increasing their defense budgets so will have reached 2% by 2024. 

Trump seems to think he's going to get a big fat cheque for all the money he thinks the US is owed.


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## cobgoblin (20 March 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			OK, I don't disagree, ycbm and cobgoblin. Germany in particular could and should pay more. But the 2% target is probably an unrealistic one for many of the smaller economies - just because they're not paying as much as the US doesn't mean they're not paying a fair share. Several of those  that don't currently meet the 2% target are increasing their defense budgets so will have reached 2% by 2024. 

Trump seems to think he's going to get a big fat cheque for all the money he thinks the US is owed.
		
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I think they all agreed to 2%.....besides which, if Greece can manage it......


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## Buddy'sMum (20 March 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			I think they all agreed to 2%.....besides which, if Greece can manage it......
		
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Well, they agreed to meet the 2% target by 2024. Are you suggesting the smaller developing economies should follow Greece's example of decades of massive overspending?


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## cobgoblin (20 March 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Well, they agreed to meet the 2% target by 2024. Are you suggesting the smaller developing economies should follow Greece's example of decades of massive overspending?
		
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No, I'm suggesting that Greece has managed it despite its dreadful economy...and the smaller a country's GDP , the smaller one's contribution. Nothing unfair in that.


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## Buddy'sMum (20 March 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			No, I'm suggesting that Greece has managed it despite its dreadful economy...and the smaller a country's GDP , the smaller one's contribution. Nothing unfair in that.
		
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Well, the Greek government _is_ managing to spend 2.38% of GDP on defense while one in three Greeks are living below the poverty line. Priorities, eh?


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## Goldenstar (20 March 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Eh? Every NATO member country DOES pay their fair share.

Alternative facts, an extreme dislike of the SNP and zero understanding of how NATO contributions work. Your name's not Donald, is it Judgemental? 

Click to expand...

It's simply not true that all NATO members pull their weight I suspect it's one of the few things Trumps correct about .
Why should the US do more than it's fair share ?


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## Goldenstar (20 March 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Well, the Greek government _is_ managing to spend 2.38% of GDP on defense while one in three Greeks are living below the poverty line. Priorities, eh?
		
Click to expand...

Defence , yes that should be a priority


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## cobgoblin (20 March 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Well, the Greek government _is_ managing to spend 2.38% of GDP on defense while one in three Greeks are living below the poverty line. Priorities, eh?
		
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In that case, with only a million in poverty Scotland should easily afford 2%! Defence really is a priority.


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## fburton (20 March 2017)

Judgemental said:



			It's all or nothing and I hope the people of Scotland realise that.
		
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Although I'm no fan of Gordon Brown, I find his "third option" quite attractive and consider it worthy of consideration. It would give Scotland a better chance of achieving/assuming "fiscal responsibility".


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## ycbm (20 March 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Well, the Greek government _is_ managing to spend 2.38% of GDP on defense while one in three Greeks are living below the poverty line. Priorities, eh?
		
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I think that is because as part of one of the big bailouts, the Germans insisted they buy two submarines that they didn't need?  OH told me that, shoot him if it's wrong.


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## Buddy'sMum (20 March 2017)

ycbm said:



			I think that is because as part of one of the big bailouts, the Germans insisted they buy two submarines that they didn't need?  OH told me that, shoot him if it's wrong.
		
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You mean the faulty German submarines?


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## ycbm (20 March 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			You mean the faulty German submarines?
		
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Well there are more than two, apparently, none of which have ever sailed. But the earlier ones go back before bailouts. Greece has always, apparently, liked spending on defence. And France and Germany were very happy to take their money, only to later accuse them of profligate spending.


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## ozpoz (21 March 2017)

No one in Scotland will ever trust Gordon Brown's proclamations again. We are not that daft, the man has become a figure of fun here.
Some of the comments on this thread illuminate exactly why Scotland's people realise that as a nation their ideals and viewpoints are far ,far away from anything coming from Westminster. It will all help to speed things up, so carry on! : ) 

We have to choose, once we are free from the lies and cognitive (or wilful) dissonance from the tory party, whether it will be the EU or Scandinavian nations we join. Our past has long ties with both.
Of course Faslane will go south too. You're welcome.


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## ycbm (21 March 2017)

We have to choose, once we are free from the lies and cognitive (or wilful) dissonance from the tory party, whether it will be the EU or Scandinavian nations we join.
		
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I don't know whether to laugh or cry that you think the cognitive dissonance is lower in the EU than in the Tory Party. 

Can you explain what you mean by 'join' the Scandinavian nations?  Norway isn't in the EU but pays for market access and has freedom of movement. Sweden is in but has a growing movement on both sides of their political divide calling for leaving. And as far as I know, there is nothing you can actually join with?

As for joining the EU, are you aware of the depth of austerity that the EU  will require for you to balance your budget in order to join? It will make the Tory Party look like a Tea Party.

I have many happy memories of Faslane. My father was one of the first officers to serve there, at a time when the Scots in the area were very happy to have us and the jobs it brought.


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## ozpoz (21 March 2017)

I can't explain the word "join' any more that just that - Join. If you can access news that is not generated by Murdoch, you'll discover that there are more options and overtures being reported on, and available to Scotland. Don't wait for Theresa May to include these in any press statements though. 

I also have links to Faslane, with family submariners and RN.

I am well aware of the history and it is just that, history. Now I am more concerned about the future of my grandchildren. Do you know Trident is there for the convenience of the US and not the UK? At an obscene cost, I may add. Are you confident there is a safe pair of hands at the helm?
I'm not and I don't know anyone who is.


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## ycbm (21 March 2017)

ozpoz said:



			I can't explain the word "join' any more that just that - Join. If you can access news that is not generated by Murdoch, you'll discover that there are more options and overtures being reported on, and available to Scotland. Don't wait for Theresa May to include these in any press statements though. 

I also have links to Faslane, with family submariners and RN.

I am well aware of the history and it is just that, history. Now I am more concerned about the future of my grandchildren. Do you know Trident is there for the convenience of the US and not the UK? At an obscene cost, I may add. Are you confident there is a safe pair of hands at the helm?
I'm not and I don't know anyone who is.
		
Click to expand...

If you can't explain what you mean then I'm inclined to stick with my current belief, which is that the options you dream of do not exist.

Am I confident that no Western idiot is going to fire off an ICBM at Putin and that Putin is not going to nuke Faslane?  Yes, it's not called M.A.D.  for nothing.


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## Fred66 (21 March 2017)

I think before the next Scottish independence referendum the deal should be negotiated and then everyone knows what they are voting for


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## fburton (21 March 2017)

ozpoz said:



			No one in Scotland will ever trust Gordon Brown's proclamations again. We are not that daft, the man has become a figure of fun here.
		
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It's not a proclamation or a promise, though, is it? It's just a suggestion, and one which someone else - TM presumably - would have to take up based on her judgement in the (unlikely?) event of a second referendum. I would still be in favour of the suggestion if it came from another politician.


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## Judgemental (28 March 2017)

Can we take a straw poll of our Scots brethren.....

1. Will there ever be a referendum on Scottish independence?

2. If there were were a referendum would a majority of  the Scottish people vote for independence?

3. On a % basis how many of the Scottish people are fed up with the issue of Scottish independence and by implication Ms Sturgeon?


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## ROG (28 March 2017)

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/quest...independence-referendum-if-held-now-ask#table
37% YES - FOR INDY
48% NO - STAY UK

SNP must think they can turn that around !


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## Isbister (6 April 2017)

Apparently the Scottish economy is slipping into recession, not helped by the SNP's policies. Clearly they wish to kick up a hoo-hah about a referendum as a smokescreen to divert attention from their misrule.


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## Judgemental (6 April 2017)

Isbister said:



			Apparently the Scottish economy is slipping into recession, not helped by the SNP's policies. Clearly they wish to kick up a hoo-hah about a referendum as a smokescreen to divert attention from their misrule.
		
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Certainly that is the substance of all reports concerning the economy and Sturgeon, especially as the Oil and Gas has little or no value.

My experience of all things and people Scottish is that they are all most sensible and cautious. 

Why  the people of Scotland are prepared to put up with Sturgeon and the way she is making fools of the everybody is a mystery.


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## JDee (7 April 2017)

I'm not sure that many of them are putting up with her or at least not as many as there were if those opinion poll figures are anything to go by. Is support for her and independence just another of those cases where a few people can make a lot of noise and sound like a big crowd?


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## ozpoz (7 April 2017)

The oil and gas has little or no value!!!!  : D   

On which planet? 

I have seen another poll where the pro Indy voters are at 62%.

Seriously Judgemental, you are kidding yourself.


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## Judgemental (12 April 2017)

ozpoz said:



			The oil and gas has little or no value!!!!  : D   

On which planet? 

I have seen another poll where the pro Indy voters are at 62%.

Seriously Judgemental, you are kidding yourself.
		
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Whatever the value, she ain't getting a sniff of the Oil because it's in British territorial waters.

Silly little girl who is still running her 6th Form debates at Holyrood.

'It BELONGS to US!' Tory MP issues HANDS OFF warning to Sturgeon over North Sea oil

NICOLA STURGEON has been dealt a killer blow to her Scottish independence dreams after being told to keep her hands off the United Kingdom&#8217;s North Sea oil.

By JOE BARNES
PUBLISHED: 17:01, Wed, Apr 12, 2017 | UPDATED: 18:23, Wed, Apr 12, 2017

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/79...n-North-Sea-oil-warning-Scottish-Independence


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## popsdosh (13 April 2017)

Is it me or am I missing something ,the press does not appear to be giving her the coverage they were or maybe she has done what she was told to do by RD ie 'Sit down and shut up'. 
Maybe the reality is sinking in that she has misjudged the Scottish peoples stomach for another referendum as it was so transparent she was using it as a threat to get what she wanted ,although those she was threatening already knew it was an idle threat.
I really hope that the people of Scotland do realise we are better off together and I cannot help but think that to some degree her grandstanding has been to do with keeping their concentration away from the real issues that are starting to effect Scotland and I guess will all be blamed on Brexit rather than the true culprits.


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## ycbm (13 April 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Is it me or am I missing something ,the press does not appear to be giving her the coverage they were or maybe she has done what she was told to do by RD ie 'Sit down and shut up'. 
Maybe the reality is sinking in that she has misjudged the Scottish peoples stomach for another referendum as it was so transparent she was using it as a threat to get what she wanted ,although those she was threatening already knew it was an idle threat.
I really hope that the people of Scotland do realise we are better off together and I cannot help but think that to some degree her grandstanding has been to do with keeping their concentration away from the real issues that are starting to effect Scotland and I guess will all be blamed on Brexit rather than the true culprits.
		
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In the Press yesterday. Public spending per head in the rest of the UK  8,800 , in Scotland 10,500. Scotland's economy teetering on the brink of recession.   I'm warming to Nicola more every day.


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## Buddy'sMum (13 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			In the Press yesterday. Public spending per head in the rest of the UK  8,800 , in Scotland 10,500. Scotland's economy teetering on the brink of recession.   I'm warming to Nicola more every day.
		
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Also in the news yesterday - Scotland's unemployment rate is the lowest in the UK:
https://stv.tv/amp/1385657-scottish-unemployment-rate-drops-to-lowest-in-the-uk/

I'm warming to Nicola more every day too


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## popsdosh (13 April 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Also in the news yesterday - Scotland's unemployment rate is the lowest in the UK:
https://stv.tv/amp/1385657-scottish-unemployment-rate-drops-to-lowest-in-the-uk/

I'm warming to Nicola more every day too 

Click to expand...

Maybe they are all moving to England!


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## Judgemental (13 April 2017)

Make no mistake about it, if Scotland achieves independence, it will be a scorched earth policy. You will be left standing in your kilts and nothing else. We will even have your Sporrans.

No fishing, oil revenue or handouts from the likes of Barnett Consequential.

The grass is always greener. It will be like being cast adrift in an open boat. When you meet the Pirates, i.e the EU, they will rape and pillage the bloom of Scotland's youth taking huge membership fees, assuming they will have Scotland as a member. Not a subject that sits well with the Spanish in respect of the Catalan question.

No, go and 'sleep with' the EU and don't be surprised if you find them fickle and disloyal.


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## Buddy'sMum (13 April 2017)

Judgemental said:



			Whatever the value, she ain't getting a sniff of the Oil because it's in British territorial waters.

Silly little girl who is still running her 6th Form debates at Holyrood.

'It BELONGS to US!' Tory MP issues HANDS OFF warning to Sturgeon over North Sea oil

NICOLA STURGEON has been dealt a killer blow to her Scottish independence dreams after being told to keep her hands off the United Kingdoms North Sea oil.

By JOE BARNES
PUBLISHED: 17:01, Wed, Apr 12, 2017 | UPDATED: 18:23, Wed, Apr 12, 2017

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/79...n-North-Sea-oil-warning-Scottish-Independence

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Err, didn't you claim in your previous post that North Sea oil and gas has "little or no revenue"?
Now, Scotland "ain't getting a sniff" of it? 
Do make your mind up, sweetie.


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## Buddy'sMum (13 April 2017)

Judgemental said:



			Make no mistake about it, if Scotland achieves independence, it will be a scorched earth policy. You will be left standing in your kilts and nothing else. We will even have your Sporrans.

No fishing, oil revenue or handouts from the likes of Barnett Consequential.

The grass is always greener. It will be like being cast adrift in an open boat. When you meet the Pirates, i.e the EU, they will rape and pillage the bloom of Scotland's youth taking huge membership fees, assuming they will have Scotland as a member. Not a subject that sits well with the Spanish in respect of the Catalan question.

No, go and 'sleep with' the EU and don't be surprised if you find them fickle and disloyal.
		
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Think you need to go and have a wee lie down, Judgemental


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## ycbm (13 April 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Also in the news yesterday - Scotland's unemployment rate is the lowest in the UK:
https://stv.tv/amp/1385657-scottish-unemployment-rate-drops-to-lowest-in-the-uk/

I'm warming to Nicola more every day too 

Click to expand...

I'll swap you all the Scots who work in England for all the English who work in Scotland 

Oh, and you can take your share of the 1 in 7 EU migrants who haven't got a job, too.


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## Goldenstar (14 April 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Also in the news yesterday - Scotland's unemployment rate is the lowest in the UK:
https://stv.tv/amp/1385657-scottish-unemployment-rate-drops-to-lowest-in-the-uk/

I'm warming to Nicola more every day too 

Click to expand...

Excellent time to stop that extra money per head and pout it into poorer areas in England and Wales and NI .


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## alainax (14 April 2017)

The OP Judgemental is actually a bit scary, sounds like an anti Scottish extremeist! I'd actually be concerned for their MH when Scotland does become independent!

You claim that the oil fields have no value, yet also that Scotland is not allowed to have them when we become independent. 

Let's look at it anothe way. Let's work out for the past 50 years how much revenue the English government has taken from Scotland, and how much pocket money they have gave back to us. What ever the difference is, is either what England owes Scotland upon independence or what Scotland owes England on independence. Sound fair? 

Sure it will be extremely complicated to work out as things like income tax, corpy tax, vat, oil revenue, fisharie, renewables, whiskey revenue, etc etc are not or have not always been devolved so they count towards the " U.K." Figures and not scotlands own figures. But I am sure there are people out there smart enough to genuinely work out the total figures. Current figures banded around have a huge chunk of genuine Scottish income allocated to "U.K."

The trouble is some English see Scottish as the sponging child.  But imagine living in a country, remember Scotland is a country not an English county, when the big country next door takes all of your revenue, doesn't give you exact devolved  figures, then gives you pocket money back. Imagine having every single county in your country vote for the exact same thing, then be given the polar opposite. Imagine your whole country voting one way on a huge political step, and being g forced the other way, just because the big country next door says so.

Imagine it's France, England must give all it's money to France, France will give you a be back but won't tel you with 100% accuracy how much money there is in total generated in your country from all of your assets, exports etc.  They will give you s figure, but will count a huge chunk of your income as "joint" so your income looks less than it is. England votes in overwhelming majority for conservative government in every single county. France doesn't, votes far left so tough **** England, you must have a  far left government controlling your from Paris. England votes to leave the eu, France votes that England can't leave the eu, again, tough **** England your vote is absolutely meaningless. France makes Lots of rules and finicial decisions which benefit only France, and are extreme detriment to England. But tough ****, you are a union.  fair right?


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## ycbm (14 April 2017)

I've pointed this pointed this out before, and I'll do it every time a Scot makes these claims about all the oil we've stolen from them.

When Scotland works out how much oil money they have 'given' England, they draw a line directly out from the point where the border ends into the sea.

The international  convention on who owns what oil is to extend the line at the same angle as the border was when it met the sea, and on that basis, Scotland owned less than half the oil they claim.

This was confirmed in a report commissioned by your own parliament.


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## alainax (14 April 2017)

Then there's the "France " specific spending. France wants to build a high speed railway, hundreds of millions of pound. Englands taxes will be paying for it, cause you know... if France has HS then England prospers right?

Paris Olympic Games. Englands taxes pay, cause well, England must have some benift right?


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## ycbm (14 April 2017)

Alainx, I don't call getting 20% more Public spending than the rest of the UK being given 'pocket money'.

And I don't accept that no-one has worked out the true financial contribution that Scotland makes to the economy of the UK and that you are somehow due even more!


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## alainax (14 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			I've pointed this pointed this out before, and I'll do it every time a Scot makes these claims about all the oil we've stolen from them.

When Scotland works out how much oil money they have 'given' England, they draw a line directly out from the point where the border ends into the sea.

The international  convention on who owns what oil is to extend the line at the same angle as the border was when it met the sea, and on that basis, Scotland owned less than half the oil they claim.

This was confirmed in a report commissioned by your own parliament.
		
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I've looked at the oil field maps. Seems the vast majority are in Scottish waters. Of course not the one off the east of England, but most seem north of the border.


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## Judgemental (14 April 2017)

alainax said:



			The OP Judgemental is actually a bit scary, sounds like an anti Scottish extremist!
		
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Not in the least on the contrary. Indeed I fully support all things Scottish except Ms Sturgeon and the SNP.

I am anti Nicola Sturgeon because she told the UK electorate she would abdicate the SNP from votes involving  votes for English Laws.

That is precisely why the issue of Ms Sturgeon is being debated on this website and now represents one of the longest running and certainly the most number of views of any thread.

During the General Election campaign, Ms Sturgeon said she would instruct the SNP in the House of Commons, to stand aside from any vote on Foxhunting in England and Wales  and or any amendment via Statutory Instrument to the 2004 Hunting Act.

When this was set down in the House of Commons, the SNP proposed to welch, run word and or said they would vote against the government so the vote had to be pulled.

Had the vote gone through, it would have merely brought the 2004 Hunting Act into line with the Scottish Hunting Act.

For all practical purposes it would have helped the many small farmers in the West Country concerning the removal and or management of the large herds of red deer, which do considerable amounts of damage.

As far as I am concerned, for that reason Ms Sturgeon is not a fit and proper person to be the first minister of Scotland because she cannot be trusted. Had the SNP kept their word concerning the hunting I would never have started this thread.

I also question her loyalty and patriotism to the United Kingdom and the fact she is misleading the Scottish people rather like the pied piper of Hamlin.


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## ycbm (14 April 2017)

alainax said:



			Then there's the "France " specific spending. France wants to build a high speed railway, hundreds of millions of pound. Englands taxes will be paying for it, cause you know... if France has HS then England prospers right?

Paris Olympic Games. Englands taxes pay, cause well, England must have some benift right?
		
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You have a chip on each shoulder so big you're actually coming across as relatively balanced


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## ycbm (14 April 2017)

.....


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## ycbm (14 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			I've pointed this pointed this out before, and I'll do it every time a Scot makes these claims about all the oil we've stolen from them.

When Scotland works out how much oil money they have 'given' England, they draw a line directly out from the point where the border ends into the sea.

The international  convention on who owns what oil is to extend the line at the same angle as the border was when it met the sea, and on that basis, Scotland owned less than half the oil they claim.

This was confirmed in a report commissioned by your own parliament.
		
Click to expand...

I have to add that I can't find the report at the moment and I wondering if it was 'fake news'. In which case, I apologise. I'll keep searching.


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## ycbm (14 April 2017)

For all practical purposes it would have helped the many small farmers in the West Country concerning the removal and or management of the large herds of red deer, which do considerable amounts of damage.
		
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 There are people queuing up round here to be allowed to shoot deer by stalking. The reason Cameron wanted  the law changed is because it would have ended forever the possibility of anyone ever being prosecuted for illegally hunting fox so long as any member of the field was carrying a gun.


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## Judgemental (14 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			There are people queuing up round here to be allowed to shoot deer by stalking. The reason Cameron wanted  the law changed is because it would have ended forever the possibility of anyone ever being prosecuted for illegally hunting fox so long as any member of the field was carrying a gun.
		
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Exactly and the amendment via statutory instrument, would have caused the Hunting Act 2004 to precisely mirror the act in Scotland which at the time of the vote in Holyrood  was supported by the SNP.

There have been 40,794 views of this thread (the largest number of any thread since the website was created) and I confidently predict that the issue of English Votes for English laws, will be Ms Sturgeon's nemesis, because the Scottish people will weigh the options and realise she cannot be trusted. 

In dealing with the EU she would be totally defeminized (the alternative of emasculated).


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## Fidgety (14 April 2017)

alainax said:



			Then there's the "France " specific spending. France wants to build a high speed railway, hundreds of millions of pound. Englands taxes will be paying for it, cause you know... if France has HS then England prospers right?
		
Click to expand...

Not sure what you're actually trying to say above, but at the moment the UK has absolutely no choice regarding the building of HS2 - HS2 (or rather the UK's name for its part of 'the creation of a single, efficient and competitive market for rail throughout Europe.') is an EU directive.

http://orr.gov.uk/about-orr/what-we-do/the-law/eu-law


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## Snuffles (14 April 2017)

I don't think HS2 will make our rail service efficient ! It stinks an d especially the Southern service - or not  -at the moment !


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## Fidgety (14 April 2017)

Couldn't agree more Snuffles.


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## ycbm (14 April 2017)

The claim that Scotland had been robbed of its oil has bugged me for some time, so I've done some research. 

Oil revenues are here:







The Barnet formula gives Scotland £10 billion a year more in public spending than the English. It's been going on for 29 years, and has  been reduced in that time so for the sake of easy sums let's call it 30.

I make that a total of £300 billion pounds.

Meanwhile, the total oil income is shown above, in a chart I got from a Scottish nationalist site and assume is correct. Total oil revenues over the period  were about £125,000 billion.

I'm failing to see how the Scots were deprived of anything here. They seem to already have had back twice what the UK got, and yet they continue to get 20% higher spending per head than the English.

Or have i got my sums wrong?


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## alainax (14 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			The claim that Scotland had been robbed of its oil has bugged me for some time, so I've done some research. 

Oil revenues are here:







The Barnet formula gives Scotland £10 billion a year more in public spending than the English. It's been going on for 29 years, and has  been reduced in that time so for the sake of easy sums let's call it 30.

I make that a total of £300 billion pounds.

Meanwhile, the total oil income is shown above, in a chart I got from a Scottish nationalist site and assume is correct. Total oil revenues over the period  were about £125,000 billion.

I'm failing to see how the Scots were deprived of anything here. They seem to already have had back twice what the UK got, and yet they continue to get 20% higher spending per head than the English.

Or have i got my sums wrong?
		
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Not quite. We don't get £10 billion more than the English, we get a tiny % of what England gets, around 10% or so of England's expenditure. What we do get is more per head of population as England is more densely packed. With further distance between services they do get for expensive per head of population, but certainly not £10 billion more than England. 

Our streets would be paved in gold if we got £10billion more spending than England , incidentally Your sums show that even if we did,  oil revenue alone has paid for over a third, not including income tax, vat, corporation tax etc etc.


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## alainax (14 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			The Barnet formula gives Scotland £10 billion a year more in public spending than the English. ?
		
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England gets £467 billion 
Scotland gets £52 billion

But if you fancy giving us £477 billion I'll promise not to post in this thread anymore!


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## alainax (14 April 2017)

In regards to the earlier post about English votes for English laws, i actually entirely agree. However, that has to work both ways. I 100% think that Scottish MPs should not get a say on the speed limit on English roads, on the English  hunting ban, on school places etc. I list these things as as long as all money goes to England, then the tiny fraction of Scottish MPs there should get a voice on how it is spent. 


However that also means England shouldn't be forcing Scotland out of the eu, making policies that suit only England, deciding on scotlands immigrating polices etc.

 I am all for being equal partners in a union and keeping our noses out of each other's business, so why don't we devolve Westminster. Each country within this union having its own rules, its own finicial automony, working for what is best for its own people, and not telling the other what to do. Seems logical to me.


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## alainax (14 April 2017)

alainax said:



			England gets £467 billion 
Scotland gets £52 billion

But if you fancy giving us £477 billion I'll promise not to post in this thread anymore!  

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Sorry I keep posting after myself, but just wanted to add, the money thing is just one aspect of it all. I'd still be pro Indy even if it is proven that in the short term Scotland would be worse off. There are many small nations similar sized to ours who do blooming well with the right management and less assets. I think It would be quite nice to live in a country where we get what we vote for. Where decisions are made which are of our benefit, and not only that if the country next door. It would be nice to have our own countries flag in emojis,,,


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## ycbm (14 April 2017)

alainax said:



			Not quite. We don't get £10 billion more than the English, we get a tiny % of what England gets, around 10% or so of England's expenditure. What we do get is more per head of population as England is more densely packed. With further distance between services they do get for expensive per head of population, but certainly not £10 billion more than England. 

Our streets would be paved in gold if we got £10billion more spending than England , incidentally Your sums show that even if we did,  oil revenue alone has paid for over a third, not including income tax, vat, corporation tax etc etc.
		
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You get nearly two thousand pounds per head per year. About five million people times two thousand.  That's about ten billion. 



Every year.


As compensation for taking 'your' oil, which by my reckoning we have already paid for twice over and with no sign of it stopping even though Barnett was supposed, thirty years ago, to be a short term measure.


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## cobgoblin (14 April 2017)

We'd all be better off if Scotland left. Perhaps it's the rest of the U.K. that should be voting.


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## Goldenstar (14 April 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			We'd all be better off if Scotland left. Perhaps it's the rest of the U.K. that should be voting.
		
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This is a fair point give the English the vote and suspect they would vote to ditch Scotland .


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## fburton (15 April 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			This is a fair point give the English the vote and suspect they would vote to ditch Scotland .
		
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I suspect the support for that would be stronger with the Brexit-minded than with the Status quoists.

Better then if England had had a single vote to secede from both the EU and the UK, leaving Scotland inside the EU? Hmm, I wonder. Impossible in practice, but an attractive idea nonetheless?


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## popsdosh (15 April 2017)

fburton said:



			I suspect the support for that would be stronger with the Brexit-minded than with the Status quoists.

Better then if England had had a single vote to secede from both the EU and the UK, leaving Scotland inside the EU? Hmm, I wonder. Impossible in practice, but an attractive idea nonetheless?
		
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I very much doubt thats the case we are ALL fed up with NS bleating on and trying to stamp her feet .  There was a UK wide referendum and she didnt like the result grow up . Why dont we split the British isles down the middle and the remainers can live in one half and the Brexit lot in the other. Or better still all the remainers move to an independant scotland then you can have all those mouthy lot that cannot accept the result of a democratic vote!! lets face it you have enough land area for them.
What does Scotland get from the EU that makes it so attractive ? Or as I suspect its being politically used as an excuse to call for independence again. I never once up until last years vote saw anything from NS about her not accepting the democratic vote of the UK. However now the SNP now have some serious questions to answer ie why are Schools getting worse and hospital waiting times getting worse even though they are spending 2k per head more it makes a good political smoke screen. When are you guys north of the border going to realise what they are doing is unsustainable.


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## Goldenstar (15 April 2017)

The most attractive idea is if we could magic are selves away from the situation were so much time energy  and money is spent on these issues and spend that time energy and money on Problem solving instead .
However that can't happen so we have to get on with it.
I did not want to leave the European Union but I am not one of the remain camp who are in the neverendum way of thinking and it's a case of wrong answer vote again until you get it right .
And of course that wants going on in Scotland it's hardly five minutes since the last referendum but wrong answer vote again is the cry if the vote had gone the other way would the fuss have been the same I think not.
I basically bored of Scotland I know that the majority of people who live there are not harbouring the unpleasant anti English sentiments that you saw on display during the last campaign but I won't forget the things I heard expressed .
On the the EU I am to be honest a bit heartbroken on lots of levels but mainly for my OH's family in Ireland they went through so much nastiness and things were transformed and the EU was a big part of that .


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## MotherOfChickens (15 April 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I basically bored of Scotland I know that the majority of people who live there are not harbouring the unpleasant anti English sentiments that you saw on display during the last campaign but I won't forget the things I heard expressed .
		
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I know its not a popular belief among the British press but not all pro-Independence voters are anti-English. Its a small, vocal minority. It is possible to be pro-Independence and not a rabid nat. Those of you who cannot understand the frustration of Scotland and NI being taken out of the EU and that we should all just suck it up simply just don't get it and I don't know how to get you get it! Alainax had the best analogy about the French but was just told she had a chip on her shoulder  

On the flip side of that, some in England should maybe realise that the English are not universally loved in the world and wonder why that might be. Easy to say its all history and people need to buck up, when you're not the ones affected. I am English, I have been on the end of anti-English rhetoric in Wales (when I was a child), the US (some of them really hate us), Australia, South Africa and yes, Scotland but not without reason. Is it my fault? No of course not but it needs to be understood.

As an English person, I am dismayed at what I am seeing in England right now and still hoping that is a small vocal minority over represented in the press.Form the outside it looks like a hate filled, wretched place heavily relying on an over inflated sense of historic entitlement with a totally inept government who's PM looks out of her depth. Incorrect? well maybe the English press's version of Scotland is inaccurate as well. There are several regular posters on this thread that I really respect and value their opinions (and then there's Judgemental  ) so I hate it when it descends into a bashing all of Scotland and the Scottish type vibe.


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## Goldenstar (15 April 2017)

I am being forced out of the EU as well but I have the grace to accept it .
I don't see the difference .


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## ycbm (15 April 2017)

Those of you who cannot understand the frustration of Scotland and NI being taken out of the EU and that we should all just suck it up simply just don't get it and I don't know how to get you get it! Alainax had the best analogy about the French but was just told she had a chip on her shoulder
		
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I do get it. I was talking to my OH yesterday about how I got it.

 My comment about Alainax was related to an awful lot more than her French analogy and was a reply to the specifics of being forced to finance a railway that most people in England don't want either and an Olympic games that was - yet again - based in the separate country of Londonistan.

The French analogy also doesn't work, because France aren't financing them to have public services which are better than the people in France have.

Alainax doesn't even seem to be able to imagine that there are plenty of English people who don't get what they want in a democracy. It's the best of a flawed lot of ways of running a country. So what is the point of all this endless anguish about it? What can actually be changed?  

The Scots should get another vote in 2020 and the result of that should be the end of it, imo. Then if the Nationalists get what they want, I will sit back and watch the EU unfold on them the biggest austerity budget they could possibly imagine.


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## MotherOfChickens (15 April 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I am being forced out of the EU as well but I have the grace to accept it .
I don't see the difference .
		
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your country voted for it, Scotland did not. Now 'you' can argue that Scotland is part of the UK and in a partnership but when a large proportion (arguably as big a margin as won Brexit)in Scotland doesn't agree that the partnership is equal (in democratic terms at least) or should mean exit from the EU then maybe it is time for change-a new partnership much like the new partnership much touted by the Tories about the EU.


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## ycbm (15 April 2017)

fburton said:



			.

Better then if England had had a single vote to secede from both the EU and the UK, leaving Scotland inside the EU? Hmm, I wonder. Impossible in practice, but an attractive idea nonetheless?
		
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Very attractive to the English, but can you tell me where Scotland is going to make the austerity cuts necessary to join the Euro?  Because it won't be allowed to keep the pound and borrow on the international markets to finance the Scottish socialist utopian dream on the strength of the pound.


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## ycbm (15 April 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			maybe it is time for change-a new partnership much like the new partnership much touted by the Tories about the EU.
		
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Except that currently, we pay the EU money, they don't pay us. A separation under those circumstances makes rather more sense!

I'm with you all the way if you give up your 10 billion a year Barnett money and don't expect to finance Scottish  public services by running up huge debts on the strength and size of the English economy.


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## popsdosh (15 April 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			your country voted for it, Scotland did not. Now 'you' can argue that Scotland is part of the UK and in a partnership but when a large proportion (arguably as big a margin as won Brexit)in Scotland doesn't agree that the partnership is equal (in democratic terms at least) or should mean exit from the EU then maybe it is time for change-a new partnership much like the new partnership much touted by the Tories about the EU.
		
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Where do you draw the boundaries though ,we held a UK wide referendum which the SNP endorsed with a result that was going to encompass the whole of the UK . Now tell me that was not the case .  Why dont we just allow anybody who has a contrary view to stay in the EU and I mean down to the individual we all know it wont work! Sorry to state the obvious also Scotland are not part of the EU and whatever propaganda you get from the SNP it is not a slam dunk that they would be allowed to join. 
Can I just ask the sensible people of Scotland how much of the SNPs reaction is the genuine desire to stay or are they looking on the vote as the best chance ever to force through another vote on independence. Whatever NS has gone quieter and is it due to her not being so sure she has the backing she needs to achieve the ultimate goal.
I am in no way anti Scottish however many in England are really fed up with hearing your leader bleating on as im sure many north of the border are.


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## MotherOfChickens (15 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			Except that currently, we pay the EU money, they don't pay us. A separation under those circumstances makes rather more sense!
		
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depends on your opinion doesn't it-you are pro Brexit and think we will be better off. I think its the biggest cluster**** of our generation. Time will tell. 

We're never going to agree, which is fine. I just want to point out the hypocrisy of some of the points raised-leaving the thread again for another couple of months.


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## Goldenstar (15 April 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			your country voted for it, Scotland did not. Now 'you' can argue that Scotland is part of the UK and in a partnership but when a large proportion (arguably as big a margin as won Brexit)in Scotland doesn't agree that the partnership is equal (in democratic terms at least) or should mean exit from the EU then maybe it is time for change-a new partnership much like the new partnership much touted by the Tories about the EU.
		
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The relationship is unequal ATM in Scotlands favour ,you get more money per head from the communal pot and you get to vote on English matters .
But we voted in the EU referendum as one country and it was to stay as one country that Scotland voted in the Indy ref .
It's a case of the the rough with the smooth you don't always get what you want.


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## MotherOfChickens (15 April 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Can I just ask the sensible people of Scotland how much of the SNPs reaction is the genuine desire to stay or are they _looking on the vote as the best chance ever to force through another vote on independence_. Whatever NS has gone quieter and is it due to her not being so sure she has the backing she needs to achieve the ultimate goal.
I am in no way anti Scottish however many in England are really fed up with hearing your leader bleating on as im sure many north of the border are.
		
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well of course, thats their point of being. same as those in NI causing upset-Brexit was always going to do this-the fact that Cameron was too stupid to see it or too arrogant to care is why so many are so angry about it. 

The SNP also realises how important the EU is to them, in the UK or without. I've said it before, anyone in Scotland who voted SNP in the last election thinking they wouldn't be facing another Independence vote were daft. I don't believe they were daft though, I think many voted tactically and we'll have to wait for the next one to see what happens. 

If you are fed up of our PM, now you know how fed up England's they've been up here


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## alainax (15 April 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			The relationship is unequal ATM in Scotlands favour ,you get more money per head from the communal pot and you get to vote on English matters .
But we voted in the EU referendum as one country and it was to stay as one country that Scotland voted in the Indy ref .
It's a case of the the rough with the smooth you don't always get what you want.
		
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Bear in mind though during the Indy ref the "no thanks" campaign told Scotland that if they vote to leave they will be kicked from the EU. In actual fact voting "no" was the way in which to garuntee being kicked out the EU against our will. 
Many people voted no to keep the status quo, that is now gone, we are being forced undemocratically to do what the big country next door wants, and the people of Scotland should be allowed the choice if they want to follow them over the cliff, or take their own path. 

I was actually a bit shocked at the depth of the lies being allowed during the Brexit campaign, with no follow up after. If anything I hope Brexit will encourage people to see right through this in future, pretty tough lesson to learn right enough. 

I dislike the " we as a country" voted for Brexit. The United Kingdom of Great Britain, which is made up of several countries voted. Some of th countries did not vote to leave the U.K. I know it can be argued the sovereign state of the UK is also a country, I don't think this union should overpower the countries within in.  Each is a country in their own right. The SNP was in favour of each country having their own say, as clearly England with its huge majority would enhiliate the votes of the other countries. This was dismissed.


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## ycbm (15 April 2017)

I agree with you there. This was a monumental cock up my Cameron. He simply never expected, and had no plan for, an out vote. For me, it's the right result, and a lucky escape from the Federal State of Europe, (and increasing loss of autonomy which is, paradoxically, the very reason some in Scotland want to split from the UK)  but I have always accepted that it has been achieved in the wrong way.


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## Goldenstar (15 April 2017)

I also think Cameron did not expect to hold the vote and when he decided to hold the vote he did sort of think it will all work out .

WHatever say I look at it referendums make for lazy populist politicians .


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## cobgoblin (15 April 2017)

I think Cameron did have to hold the vote...and not because of his own backbenchers. The uk's relationship with the eu has been shrouded in lies and evasions from the very beginning ...from joining the EEC, to Major trying to take us into the euro without our consent, to no vote on Maastricht....it was a steamroller to which the population had no brakes or controls.
UKIP was picking up votes from all parties purely because people wanted a referendum and the conservative heartlands were highly Eurosceptic. Not holding the referendum would have meant ukip gaining more and more ground .... Not because people believed in their policies but purely because they wanted their say on the eu.

So he did it...and all through the campaign I felt that Cameron's heart wasn't in it. I never felt Cameron actually believed half of what he was saying. He misjudged the level of Euroscepticism in the country and in himself. Not having a plan for Brexit was stupid but I'm not sure it was ever something that could really be planned for, given that it is a negotiation.
The eu was so arrogant that it gave him nothing to work with.
The opinion polls were useless because in this day and age people are wary of disclosing their intentions.
When it all went tits up...he panicked and bunked.

The result is what it is and that is that. Perhaps we have been in the eu too long for some to actually understand what real democracy is...you don't always get what you want but at least democracy makes decisions...something that the eu is very bad at.

Scotland, having chosen to remain in the uk, is part of that democratic decision. It's no good moaning that the campaign was poor, that there were lies ( as there were on both sides) ...if you cast a vote then it is your responsibility to check your facts..and that applies to indyref1 as well as the eu referendum, or indeed any election.


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## Snuffles (15 April 2017)

NS has gone quiet  because she stated that she would be back with another plan after Easter !


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## Goldenstar (15 April 2017)

alainax said:



			Bear in mind though during the Indy ref the "no thanks" campaign told Scotland that if they vote to leave they will be kicked from the EU. In actual fact voting "no" was the way in which to garuntee being kicked out the EU against our will. 
Many people voted no to keep the status quo, that is now gone, we are being forced undemocratically to do what the big country next door wants, and the people of Scotland should be allowed the choice if they want to follow them over the cliff, or take their own path. 

I was actually a bit shocked at the depth of the lies being allowed during the Brexit campaign, with no follow up after. If anything I hope Brexit will encourage people to see right through this in future, pretty tough lesson to learn right enough. 

I dislike the " we as a country" voted for Brexit. The United Kingdom of Great Britain, which is made up of several countries voted. Some of th countries did not vote to leave the U.K. I know it can be argued the sovereign state of the UK is also a country, I don't think this union should overpower the countries within in.  Each is a country in their own right. The SNP was in favour of each country having their own say, as clearly England with its huge majority would enhiliate the votes of the other countries. This was dismissed.
		
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Why would England give its self over further to the tyranny of the minority ?
What possible reason might we have had to do that ?
Scotland population is just over a tenth of England's .
It may come as a shock to some Scots but the English are not stupid .


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## cobgoblin (15 April 2017)

alainax said:



			I know it can be argued the sovereign state of the UK is also a country, I don't think this union should overpower the countries within in. .
		
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But it's ok for the European Union to overpower the countries within it,is it? Scotland will be an even smaller voice in the EU than it is in the UK.


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## popsdosh (15 April 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			But it's ok for the European Union to overpower the countries within it,is it? Scotland will be an even smaller voice in the EU than it is in the UK.
		
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This is the whole thing I cannot understand about Scotlands argument. We are at present a major nett contributor to the EU ,Scotland at best will be looked upon as another Greece a big drain on their already depleted income ,im sure they will be very welcome. Uk on its own is the fifth largest economy in the world do you not think we can stand on our own two feet. 
To many scare stories put about by NS to achieve another vote on the holy grail. You watch her trying to hold on to UK if the EU are not that welcoming she knows the truth of where the money comes from to pursue her socialist agenda. To put some meat on the bones every English tax payer contributes approx £350 to every member of the public north of the border and thats just the difference between the funding.


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## Judgemental (19 April 2017)

Mrs May's call for a General Election at this time is remarkably shrewd and brilliantly tailored to decimate the SNP who, I confidently predict will be annihilated at the polls.

Aside from the fact they simply do not have the money to fight a traditional General Election campaign.

Loyalty, Patriotism and Kindred Spirit with the United Kingdom, will be writ large across Scotland and I am told, that right minded Scotsmen and Women will realise that this election, has in part been generated by Ms Sturgeon's disloyal and unpatriotic political game playing.

If as predicted, Mrs May gets the mandate and majority she wants, the SNP whatever their numbers, can whistle in the wind post election, because the Westminster Parliament will be in an very strong position to robustly deal with dissenters.

The Scots are a great people and are very astute at realising which side their bread is buttered.


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## Judgemental (5 May 2017)

SNP might scrape home with 20 seats at the General Election.


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## claret09 (5 May 2017)

I hate to criticise anyone, however, I sometimes think we possibly need to find ms sturgeon and her team a deserted Scottish island to live on so that they could do exactly as they pleased


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## Fragglerock (6 May 2017)

alainax said:



			I dislike the " we as a country" voted for Brexit. The United Kingdom of Great Britain, which is made up of several countries voted. Some of th countries did not vote to leave the U.K. I know it can be argued the sovereign state of the UK is also a country, I don't think this union should overpower the countries within in.  Each is a country in their own right. The SNP was in favour of each country having their own say, as clearly England with its huge majority would enhiliate the votes of the other countries. This was dismissed.
		
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Scotland could have swung the vote the other way if those who didn't vote had voted to Remain.


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## popsdosh (6 May 2017)

claret09 said:



			I hate to criticise anyone, however, I sometimes think we possibly need to find ms sturgeon and her team a deserted Scottish island to live on so that they could do exactly as they pleased
		
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Perhaps we could all club together and buy them one somewhere around the Danish or Dutch coast then they would be happy as part of he EU.


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## alainax (6 May 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Perhaps we could all club together and buy them one somewhere around the Danish or Dutch coast then they would be happy as part of he EU.
		
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Sounds like a line from a movie " the trouble with Scotland, is all the damn Scots..."

I'm beginning to think judgemental has some weird agenda with his/her SNP bashing thread. Which for some weird reason has a huge majority of English folk bashing in it.



I'd never dare to start a derogatory  Sinn Féin or Plaid Cymru thread as frankly it's ****** all to do with me!


You hate the SNP, we get it. I very much dislike tories, even more so Ms May who quite frankly I don't not recognise as prime minister. I hate ukip, and hate Brexit. We are never going to agree but your constant SNP bashing is getting tedious.


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## ycbm (6 May 2017)

I'd never dare to start a derogatory Sinn Féin or Plaid Cymru thread as frankly it's ****** all to do with me!
		
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As far as I know, neither the Irish nor the Welsh use taxes I pay to get £2,000 per head more public spending than equally poor areas of England and then do nothing but complain about it.


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## alainax (6 May 2017)

Labour voters voting Tory is the strangest thing. I know the reasoning... some of the  older generation, die hard life long labour supporters  don't want independence so won't vote SNP, labour is a mess so they can't look to them seriously. So they vote Tory as an anti independence vote, sometimes without realising it is the exact opposite of the political values which they hold. 

Ironically if Scotland were to become independent, labour could win the majority again, as our government wouldn't be influenced by English votes.


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## alainax (6 May 2017)

ycbm said:



			As far as I know, neither the Irish nor the Welsh use taxes I pay to get £2,000 per head more public spending than equally poor areas of England and then do nothing but complain about it.
		
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They also haven't had their oil stolen for 50+ years, with no proper accountancy. The money thing is not my bug bear though, it's getting no say in government. The big country next door voting polar opposite to you, and you have to lump it. 

 We are going round in circles here. I accepted the no vote, won't I don't accept is being dragged out the EU against our will. Particularly as no voters were promised it was the only way to stay in the Eu.

Some English folk talk of the hate some big union taking money from them,  dictating laws and practices to them.., yet when Scotland voices the same opinion we are told to stop complaining. 

Worst still, imagine if the EU chose which party shall lead your government. Don't like it? Tough. Then EU tells you to stop complaining, we give you money, so shut it. Charming right? 

Maybe the Eu should have told England to stop complaining...


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## alainax (6 May 2017)

However, I do think it's time I stop posting here. Its  very clear we are at polar opposites in opinion, and me posting in this thread is only bumping it even more than judgmental does already. 

I do like a good debate but the anti Scottish rhetoric and hypocrisy of voting out of the EU but slating Scotland for wanting out of a worse union is unfathomable.


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## popsdosh (6 May 2017)

alainax said:



			They also haven't had their oil stolen for 50+ years, with no proper accountancy. The money thing is not my bug bear though, it's getting no say in government. The big country next door voting polar opposite to you, and you have to lump it. 

 We are going round in circles here. I accepted the no vote, won't I don't accept is being dragged out the EU against our will. Particularly as no voters were promised it was the only way to stay in the Eu.

Some English folk talk of the hate some big union taking money from them,  dictating laws and practices to them.., yet when Scotland voices the same opinion we are told to stop complaining. 

Worst still, imagine if the EU chose which party shall lead your government. Don't like it? Tough. Then EU tells you to stop complaining, we give you money, so shut it. Charming right? 

Maybe the Eu should have told England to stop complaining...
		
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You are not being dragged out of the EU against your will! The UK is an EU member and we voted to leave.
I am not anti Scottish people but we get fed up with NS poking her nose into english politics and she is not even a member of the UK parliament. At least you guys north of the border have your own devolved government and a degree of autonomy and to be frank if not for the UK NS would bankrupt you pretty quickly.
I should think NS is reeling a bit after yesterday as she should have gained in excess of 100 new council seats now she has to try and put a brave face on it. Whos going to have sleepless nights leading up to june 8th NS or RD ,even with all the Scottish seats going SNP she will have no power left to influence the UK parliament.


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## alainax (6 May 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I am not anti Scottish people but we get fed up with NS poking her nose into english politics and she is not even a member of the UK parliament. At least you guys north of the border have your own devolved government and a degree of autonomy and to be frank if not for the UK NS would bankrupt you pretty quickly.
		
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Actually I agree with you on that. Neither country should interfere with the other. The SNP shouldn't be voting on English laws, as long as the Tory government don't dictate things to us. I'd actually be really happy with that. All completely separate governments, keeping the hell out of each other's business whilst maintainable strong friendly links. You don't want SNP in Westminster or Scotland to get an "unfair" subsidy, they surely you'd be pro independence.

And on the face of things whilst I think SNP is better than Tory, I don't agree with all their policies. If Scotland was independent they may then struggle to fight off proper opposition. But at least then, when Scotland is independent we get to choose the government whether it's SNP or not, and not just having to put up with whatever England votes for.


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## alainax (6 May 2017)

popsdosh said:



			,even with all the Scottish seats going SNP she will have no power left to influence the UK parliament.
		
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You've hit the nail on the head. Even if the whole country votes for one party, it means ****** all. Essentially we have no voice. 

Imagine if every single county in England voted Tory, every single one. But France voted labour, they have more people, so you are getting a whole majorly  labour, labour prime minster  whether you like it or not.


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## cobgoblin (6 May 2017)

If there's a bill to be paid for the uk leaving the eu....I wonder what the bill would be for Scotland leaving the uk?


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## ycbm (6 May 2017)

I do like a good debate but the anti Scottish rhetoric and hypocrisy of voting out of the EU but slating Scotland for wanting out of a worse union is unfathomable.
		
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 The unfathomable bit is Scotland wanting out of the Union because their voice is not heard and wanting to go independent into the increasingly federalist EU and think their voice will be heard there. Baffling.


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## ycbm (6 May 2017)

alainax said:



			They also haven't had their oil stolen for 50+ years, with no proper accountancy. The money thing is not my bug bear though, it's getting no say in government. The big country next door voting polar opposite to you, and you have to lump it. 

 We are going round in circles here. I accepted the no vote, won't I don't accept is being dragged out the EU against our will. Particularly as no voters were promised it was the only way to stay in the Eu.

Some English folk talk of the hate some big union taking money from them,  dictating laws and practices to them.., yet when Scotland voices the same opinion we are told to stop complaining. 

Worst still, imagine if the EU chose which party shall lead your government. Don't like it? Tough. Then EU tells you to stop complaining, we give you money, so shut it. Charming right? 

Maybe the Eu should have told England to stop complaining...
		
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I've done all the sums on oil on a previous post and you've been paid back every penny and a lot, lot more by the Barnett formula, which was supposed, thirty years ago, to be temporary.

You are paid ten billion a year, it adds up over thirty years!

You are not being dragged out against your will. If the people who couldn't be bothered to vote had voted, then England and Wales would be kept in against their will. But that would have been fine with you, wouldn't it?

It's democracy. It's the best of a flawed bunch of ways of managing millions of people.


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## cobgoblin (6 May 2017)

ycbm said:



			The unfathomable bit is Scotland wanting out of the Union because their voice is not heard and wanting to go independent into the increasingly federalist EU and think their voice will be heard there. Baffling.
		
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And Scotland will have to be a net contributor....without the Barnett formula.


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## Judgemental (6 May 2017)

alainax said:



			However, I do think it's time I stop posting here. Its  very clear we are at polar opposites in opinion, and me posting in this thread is only bumping it even more than judgmental does already. 

I do like a good debate but the anti Scottish rhetoric and hypocrisy of voting out of the EU but slating Scotland for wanting out of a worse union is unfathomable.
		
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It is a question of friendly warnings or shall one say, advice to all right thinking Scotsmen and women, as to the inevitable demise of separatists since time immemorial in just about all global theaters.  

Take for example the fate of Le Front de libération du Québec.

The ringleaders were arrested by the Canadian government and deported to Jamaica in about 1970.

Another poster has subsequently mentioned  sending the SNP to an isolated island. Claret said "I hate to criticise anyone, however, I sometimes think we possibly need to find ms sturgeon and her team a deserted Scottish island to live on so that they could do exactly as they pleased". 

I believe Gruinard Island is still completely uninhabited and now free of Anthrax following the experiments in 1942. It's spectacularly isolated and part of Scotland. If isolation is what the SNP want!


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## fburton (6 May 2017)

alainax said:



			don't want independence so won't vote SNP
		
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Voting SNP doesn't mean you want an independent Scotland. That issue will have to be settled in another referendum, not in the GE ballot box.


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## Snuffles (6 May 2017)

How many MPs do the SNP have in our Parliament at the moment ( or until the GE was called) they had a say in Government
otherwise whats the point of them being there at all


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## Buddy'sMum (6 May 2017)

ycbm said:



			I've done all the sums on oil on a previous post and you've been paid back every penny and a lot, lot more by the Barnett formula, which was supposed, thirty years ago, to be temporary.
		
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You make it sound like it was Scotland who came up with the Barnett  Yes, it's unfair. So why hasn't it been replaced? If Scotland's such a financial burden on rUK, why not scrap Barnett and give Scotland full fiscal autonomy?


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## Alec Swan (6 May 2017)

alainax said:



			They also haven't had their oil stolen for 50+ years, with no proper accountancy. The money thing is not my bug bear though, it's getting no say in government. The big country next door voting polar opposite to you, and you have to lump it. 

 We are going round in circles here. I accepted the no vote, won't I don't accept is being dragged out the EU against our will. Particularly as no voters were promised it was the only way to stay in the Eu.

Some English folk talk of the hate some big union taking money from them,  dictating laws and practices to them.., yet when Scotland voices the same opinion we are told to stop complaining. 

Worst still, imagine if the EU chose which party shall lead your government. Don't like it? Tough. Then EU tells you to stop complaining, we give you money, so shut it. Charming right? 

Maybe the Eu should have told England to stop complaining...
		
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Para  1:  Scottish parliament is now devolved with no outside influence from England.  Scottish MPs however,  can and do influence Westminster,  always to their own ends and never,  it seems to me,  with any thought to the common good of the UK in it's entirety.  

Your arguments generally have well structured points,  but to suggest that the oil which lays off the Scottish coast has been stolen,  is clearly wrong.

Para II:  Staying as part of the UK will be linked to the common decision to leave.  It's the same situation with Majorca.  In both cases,  if you wish to stay in the EU then you will need to change your allegiance.  It's one or the other,  not both.

Para III: There is much which is wrong with the prevailing system,  I agree with that and when Devolution was demanded by Scotland,  the chance to run their own affairs was the argument given.  Mostly,  the opportunities have been squandered,  and never forget that should Scotland stand alone then the grip which the EU currently hold will be tightened.  Stay in the EU and retain control of your oil and fishing?  Not a hope in hell.

Para IV: They did and that's why as a nation,  we voted to leave.  Had Scotland been given independence then the English vote would have been overwhelming.

Alec.


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## ycbm (6 May 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			You make it sound like it was Scotland who came up with the Barnett  Yes, it's unfair. So why hasn't it been replaced? If Scotland's such a financial burden on rUK, why not scrap Barnett and give Scotland full fiscal autonomy?
		
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Because you would borrow to the limit against the strength of the pound to finance your socialist dreams and expect the UK to bail out your banks - again- when they fail.


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## Buddy'sMum (6 May 2017)

fburton said:



			Voting SNP doesn't mean you want an independent Scotland. That issue will have to be settled in another referendum, not in the GE ballot box.
		
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Yes but I think what alainax meant was that a considerable proportion of pro-union voters in Scotland will never vote SNP regardless of how good a candidate is. Which might be why Motherwell South East & Ravenscraig now has a Tory councillor...FFS


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## Buddy'sMum (6 May 2017)

ycbm said:



			Because you would borrow to the limit against the strength of the pound to finance your socialist dreams and expect the UK to bail out your banks - again- when they fail.
		
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Or maybe not. Maybe a Scottish government would actually manage the North Sea oil & gas revenues properly?


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## Buddy'sMum (6 May 2017)

Snuffles said:



			How many MPs do the SNP have in our Parliament at the moment ( or until the GE was called) they had a say in Government
otherwise whats the point of them being there at all
		
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56. What's the point? Well, I think opposition parties come in handy sometimes.


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## ycbm (6 May 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Or maybe not. Maybe a Scottish government would actually manage the North Sea oil & gas revenues properly? 

Click to expand...

Please, do tell us how you would have spent the £60 million that you made from oil last year? With Barnett gone, that will only leave you £9940,000,000, £9.94 billion,  still to find.

I'm not bashing Scotland, I'm really not, these are just facts that can't be ignored.


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## millikins (6 May 2017)

The table shows:

8 elections when the electorates of Scotland and England voted the same (1945, 1950, 1955, 1959, 1966, Oct 1974, 1997, 2001) and got the governments each wished (6 Labour and 2 Tory)


5 elections when the Scottish electorate prevented the outcome that England had voted for:


1 election when more people in England voted Labour but got a Tory government Scotland voted for (1951);
3 elections when more people voted Tory in England but got the Labour government Scotland voted for ( 1964, Feb 1974, 2005);  and
1 election when Scotland prevented  Tories from getting the overall majority which was voted for by the English electorate (in 2010).

 Just a 10 second Google from "Planet Pedro" shows the outcome of all 18 elections post war except 2015. So not quite the big country next door continuously bullying poor little Scotland


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## ycbm (6 May 2017)

millikins said:



			The table shows:

8 elections when the electorates of Scotland and England voted the same (1945, 1950, 1955, 1959, 1966, Oct 1974, 1997, 2001) and got the governments each wished (6 Labour and 2 Tory)


5 elections when the Scottish electorate prevented the outcome that England had voted for:


1 election when more people in England voted Labour but got a Tory government Scotland voted for (1951);
3 elections when more people voted Tory in England but got the Labour government Scotland voted for ( 1964, Feb 1974, 2005);  and
1 election when Scotland prevented  Tories from getting the overall majority which was voted for by the English electorate (in 2010).

 Just a 10 second Google from "Planet Pedro" shows the outcome of all 18 elections post war except 2015. So not quite the big country next door continuously bullying poor little Scotland
		
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Well doesn't that just put the lid on the 'we are being told what to do by the bigger country' ?

 Elections since the war, 19

Both sides vote the same 8

Scotland overrules England 5

England overruled Scotland 6

Very interesting, thank Millikins. 



I have never ever heard a single person complain that they didn't get the government they wanted because of the Scots vote.


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## alainax (6 May 2017)

However here, it states in every election since 1945, Scotlands votes has only had an influence on the result 3 times. The rest of the time it was going to be what England wanted no matter what. Sure, there was times when both were wanting the same, like the 9 times Scotland voted for labour, and the rest of the uk voted labour too, so labour it was. 

But that's not to dismiss the one third of the time where they vote different and scotlands votes having no influence.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...ns-where-Scotland-decided-who-ran-the-UK.html

Counting form 1975 alone, Scotland has only got the party it voted for 50% of the time, when both countries were voting the same way. The other half of the time we get the opposite and had no influence.


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## ycbm (6 May 2017)

alainax said:



			However here, it states in every election since 1945, Scotland has only had an influence on the result 3 times. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...ns-where-Scotland-decided-who-ran-the-UK.html

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Well let's take that as a worst case then. That means that in three, possibly four, (forty percent), of the ten elections since the war where Scotland and England voted differently, well under one tenth of the population of the UK changed the result for the other well over nine tenths.

Not surprisingly, Scotland did not complain on those occasions. More importantly, neither did England.


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## alainax (6 May 2017)

Infact from 1970, there has been 11 general elections. In 6 of those, Scotland got the opposite of what they voted for. More than half of the time, in the most recent general elections, Scotland votes a different way from England, and the resulting government is of English choosing.

And I get that England has more people, so of course they get the majority and quite rightly so. But we are talking about 2 different countries here, with differing needs. I don't think Scotland should have an influence over the English government just as much as I don't think England should have over Scotland. 

Prime example is we need people, England has a housing shortage, over crowding, bursting NHS and wants to control immigration. Scotland has city centre apartments lying empty, houses for sale for less than £30k, wait weeks to get a tradesman out, farming and hospitality roles needing filled etc.


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## millikins (6 May 2017)

So the 5 out of 11 where England didn't get the Govt it voted for is o.k?


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## alainax (6 May 2017)

millikins said:



			So the 5 out of 11 where England didn't get the Govt it voted for is o.k?
		
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England did as Scotland voted the same way. I was saying out of the 11 times since 1970, Scotland voted for something else but of course England has the majority.

Of the times where Scotland has had an influence it has been minimal (0.2%) tipping the scales for example.


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## alainax (6 May 2017)




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## millikins (6 May 2017)

Does anyone other than me wonder how much Nicola Sturgeon actually wants independence for Scotland or whether she's taking the Scots for a right royal ride?

Politicians like power more than they like principles, she currently has that. She is many things but stupid isn't one of them. As things stand she is a big fish (no pun intended!) in a small pond with a devolved parliament and a hefty presence in Westminster. If Scotland were independent and joined the EU tomorrow (forget for a moment any obstacles to that), she would be a minnow with a small poor country and little influence in Europe and none at all in England.
The SNP do not have a good record in government as regards schools and hospitals, every time these unpleasant subjects are raised she starts demanding a referendum. And until now the tactic has worked, she threatens to split the U.K, lo and behold, Westminster caves and gives Scotland more power without demanding the end of the Barnet formula. 
I think it highly likely that Theresa May will agree to another referendum but will do so on her terms and use it to crush the SNP, precisely as she has called this general election to crush Labour.


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## millikins (6 May 2017)

I have never voted Labour but I have had the Government I didn't vote for for just as may years. I believe it's called democracy.


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## popsdosh (7 May 2017)

millikins said:



			I have never voted Labour but I have had the Government I didn't vote for for just as may years. I believe it's called democracy.
		
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One point that hasnt been taken account of is the number of times that Scotland voting labour has forced a labour government on the rest of the UK its been more common than you think and conveniently forgotten.
In fact in 4 elections since 1950 Labour were only in power due to the Scottish labour MPs so maybe proportionally to population size they have unfair influence.


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## ycbm (7 May 2017)

Prime example is we need people, England has a housing shortage, over crowding, bursting NHS and wants to control immigration. Scotland has city centre apartments lying empty, houses for sale for less than £30k, wait weeks to get a tradesman out, farming and hospitality roles needing filled etc.
		
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Controlling immigration does not mean stopping immigration.

There is no control on EU immigration now. If you can't get people to live in Scotland now, how do you think controlling immigration will change that?

I'll tell you one way. We can allow immigration of people to serve in Glasgow Costa, provided there aren't fifty Glaswegians who could do the job on the dole, and make it a condition of their work permit that they stay in Glasgow.

That would actually help you more than the current free for all.


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## Buddy'sMum (7 May 2017)

popsdosh said:



			One point that hasnt been taken account of is the number of times that Scotland voting labour has forced a labour government on the rest of the UK its been more common than you think and conveniently forgotten.
In fact in 4 elections since 1950 Labour were only in power due to the Scottish labour MPs so maybe proportionally to population size they have unfair influence.
		
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Which four elections are you referring to?

I make it two (1964 and autumn 1974) where Scottish Labour MPs gave Labour a majority in Westminster.

In both of those elections, Wales also returned a Labour majority so don't see how "Scotland voting Labour has forced a Labour government on the rest of the UK"?


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## popsdosh (7 May 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Which four elections are you referring to?

I make it two (1964 and autumn 1974) where Scottish Labour MPs gave Labour a majority in Westminster.

In both of those elections, Wales also returned a Labour majority so don't see how "Scotland voting Labour has forced a Labour government on the rest of the UK"?
		
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1950 , 64 , and two in 74. 
As I have said before the seats you have is slightly better than the average in uk with regards population what do you want is your own parliament not enough with a more than generous budget allowance from south of the border . We cant help it if the SNP are wasting it away.


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## Buddy'sMum (7 May 2017)

popsdosh said:



			1950 , 64 , and two in 74. 
As I have said before the seats you have is slightly better than the average in uk with regards population what do you want is your own parliament not enough with a more than generous budget allowance from south of the border . We cant help it if the SNP are wasting it away.
		
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According to this article, not so in 1950 and not really in spring 1974:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...ns-where-Scotland-decided-who-ran-the-UK.html


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## Judgemental (21 May 2017)

Ms Sturgeon certainly scuppered her independence extravaganza, by saying that Winter Fuel Payments are to continue to all recipients in Scotland, irrespective of their wealth.

She went on to say, but the UK government has to pay the bill.

Independence should be substituted with INTER-DEPENDENCE.


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## Buddy'sMum (21 May 2017)

Judgemental said:



			Ms Sturgeon certainly scuppered her independence extravaganza, by saying that Winter Fuel Payments are to continue to all recipients in Scotland, irrespective of their wealth.

She went on to say, but the UK government has to pay the bill.

Independence should be substituted with INTER-DEPENDENCE.
		
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Despite the anti-SNP spin the Express are trying to put on this, it was, in fact, your beloved Mrs May who announced that Scottish pensioners would keep winter fuel payments 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-theresa-may-joins-ruth-davidson-urge-labour/


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## Snuffles (21 May 2017)

But Scotland has control of their welfare spending so it would be up to them anyway.
Something  else that the Scots will get that the English dont, like free prescriptions, tuition fees ,elderly care etc. Wonder if they would still get it if they voted to leave the UK.


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## Buddy'sMum (21 May 2017)

Snuffles said:



			But Scotland has control of their welfare spending so it would be up to them anyway.
		
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Actually, winter fuel payments have not yet been devolved (due to be in 2020)


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## ycbm (21 May 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Actually, winter fuel payments have not yet been devolved (due to be in 2020)
		
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It's clear that Sturgeon has made the decision to keep winter fuel payments and May is going to allow her to do that. What possible difference does it make who actually said it?

It will just be another way that English taxes are used to give the Scots something that the rest of the UK doesn't have. Enjoy.


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## millikins (21 May 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Despite the anti-SNP spin the Express are trying to put on this, it was, in fact, your beloved Mrs May who announced that Scottish pensioners would keep winter fuel payments 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-theresa-may-joins-ruth-davidson-urge-labour/

Click to expand...

My understanding of this article is that WFP have already been devolved and both Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth Davidson have said it will not be means tested, Theresa May responded that many welfare payments are devolved to the Scottish Government.


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## Buddy'sMum (21 May 2017)

millikins said:



			My understanding of this article is that WFP have already been devolved and both Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth Davidson have said it will not be means tested, Theresa May responded that many welfare payments are devolved to the Scottish Government.
		
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Winter fuel payments have not yet been devolved - they are one of a number of benefits which are due to be devolved in 2020:
http://www.itv.com/news/2017-05-19/...to-no-means-testing-of-winter-fuel-allowance/
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...-our-older-people_uk_59203429e4b03b485cb1e534
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37976223


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## ycbm (21 May 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Winter fuel payments have not yet been devolved - they are one of a number of benefits which are due to be devolved in 2020:
http://www.itv.com/news/2017-05-19/...to-no-means-testing-of-winter-fuel-allowance/
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...-our-older-people_uk_59203429e4b03b485cb1e534
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37976223

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I only read the Beeb one. It's about how they may continue to be administered from England, not that the policy will be set from England. I think you have mistaken policy with admin. And if not, what are you getting aerated about?  That May asked Sturgeon what she wanted and agreed with it?


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## Buddy'sMum (21 May 2017)

I'm not mistaken. Or aerated. WFP have not been devolved yet


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## ycbm (22 May 2017)

So what so what was the point of your comment?   May asked Sturgeon and the Scottish Conservatives what they wanted instead of forcing the same on Scotland when you are so close to getting control over it.  What point are you trying to make? I don't understand.

It's just one more thing that Scots get that the English don't but the English pay for you to have.


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## Buddy'sMum (22 May 2017)

ycbm said:



			So what so what was the point of your comment?   May asked Sturgeon and the Scottish Conservatives what they wanted instead of forcing the same on Scotland when you are so close to getting control over it.  What point are you trying to make? I don't understand.
		
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*sigh* 

My comment was in response to Judgemental's assertion that



Judgemental said:



			Ms Sturgeon certainly scuppered her independence extravaganza, by saying that Winter Fuel Payments are to continue to all recipients in Scotland, irrespective of their wealth.
		
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Was it not reasonable of me to point out that it was in fact the Tories who said there will be no means testing for WFP in Scotland?


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## ycbm (22 May 2017)

Apologies. I misread the comment of yours about May announcing it as meaning only who announced it, not who decided it.

Are you happy with it?  Sturgeon was very happy when I saw her on TV. I'm really puzzled. I can't understand why anyone is happy to give very rich people the winter fuel patents.


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## Buddy'sMum (23 May 2017)

ycbm said:



			Are you happy with it?  Sturgeon was very happy when I saw her on TV. I'm really puzzled. I can't understand why anyone is happy to give very rich people the winter fuel patents.
		
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Am I happy with Tory proposals to means test pensioners in the rest of the UK while not means testing Scottish pensioners? No. I think the "it's colder in Scotland" reasoning is a load of baloney. 

But I don't agree that means testing will only exclude very rich pensioners, because, well, Tories. Did you see Theresa May being interviewed by Andrew Neil? He asked how many pensioners would be affected and she hadn't a clue.


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## ycbm (23 May 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Am I happy with Tory proposals to means test pensioners in the rest of the UK while not means testing Scottish pensioners? No. I think the "it's colder in Scotland" reasoning is a load of baloney. 

But I don't agree that means testing will only exclude very rich pensioners, because, well, Tories. Did you see Theresa May being interviewed by Andrew Neil? He asked how many pensioners would be affected and she hadn't a clue.
		
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I'm disappointed with May's performance over the entire issue. She's messed up big time, I'm afraid.


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## Judgemental (23 May 2017)

ycbm said:



			I'm disappointed with May's performance over the entire issue. She's messed up big time, I'm afraid.
		
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Do we allow her one slip up with a note, not to do it again.


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## JDee (23 May 2017)

I'm not sure how, at this point in time, she can possibly say exactly how many pensioners would be affected by means testing. Surely that figure is something that can only be known when they know who has what in terms of savings and private pensions and other sources of income on top of their basic state pension.
My father in law is by no means rich but he does have a private pension that puts him above the level for currently getting benefits though Age Concern insisted on arranging the maximum non means tested Attendance Allowance for him now he's 90. That's worked out at an extra £83.10 a week for him which he currently doesn't need and doesn't spend. Quite honestly its really annoyed me that money is so readily handed out like that.


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## millikins (23 May 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			But I don't agree that means testing will only exclude very rich pensioners, because, well, Tories.
		
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There are many people on this thread making their arguments with reasoned thinking, both left and right wing, but really, what's the point?


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## Buddy'sMum (23 May 2017)

millikins said:



			There are many people on this thread making their arguments with reasoned thinking, both left and right wing, but really, what's the point?
		
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This Tory government has introduced the bedroom tax, cut working tax credits, cut disability benefits, introduced the rape clause. 

I'm sorry if my tongue-in-cheek comment offended you. But this government's welfare track record offends me.


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## Judgemental (24 May 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			This Tory government has introduced the bedroom tax, cut working tax credits, cut disability benefits, introduced the rape clause. 

I'm sorry if my tongue-in-cheek comment offended you. But this government's welfare track record offends me.
		
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With the Prime Minister's announcement that our security has been raised to critical and that troops are now being deployed.

Plainly we are at war and when we are at war, we should all stand together as one nation and talk of independence by the SNP and Ms Sturgeon, is wholly unacceptable because such divisions give terrorists a notion that a divided nation is a weak nation.

Therefore good bad or indifferent as to what the government does so far as, "the bedroom tax, cut working tax credits, cut disability benefits, introduced the rape clause", up with it one has to put when one is at war and a multitude of children are butchered, maimed and severely injured on English soil! Anything less is unpatriotic and traitorous.


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## ycbm (24 May 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			This Tory government has introduced the bedroom tax, cut working tax credits, cut disability benefits, introduced the rape clause. 

I'm sorry if my tongue-in-cheek comment offended you. But this government's welfare track record offends me.
		
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If women don't have children when they have no means of paying for them, there would be no need for the victim of rape to have to declare that in order to get child tax credits for a third child.

Yes, it's abhorrent.

But what about the women who caused it to be introduced? The ones who deliberately or carelessly conceived and chose to keep a child that they then expected the taxpayer to pay to bring up?

This is exactly the kind of moral hazard that people to the left of the political spectrum will not discuss when they demand a more generous welfare system.

Working tax credits are a corruption of the labour system and have allowed employers to pay dirt poor wages. The increase in the minimum wage and reduction in working tax credits are the first attempt to balance that. Why are you in favour of employers being given the working tax credit perk instead of having to pay people properly?


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## fburton (24 May 2017)

Judgemental said:



			With the Prime Minister's announcement that our security has been raised to critical and that troops are now being deployed.

Plainly we are at war and when we are at war, we should all stand together as one nation and talk of independence by the SNP and Ms Sturgeon, is wholly unacceptable because such divisions give terrorists a notion that a divided nation is a weak nation.
		
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If we were "at war", the PM would have said so. In what way does difference in opinion about Scottish independence have _any_ bearing on the response to current threats, or diminish our collective resolve to stand with one another and not be cowed by terror? Do you wish for martial law to silence all dissent? It certainly seems that way.


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## Judgemental (24 May 2017)

fburton said:



			If we were "at war", the PM would have said so. In what way does difference in opinion about Scottish independence have _any_ bearing on the response to current threats, or diminish our collective resolve to stand with one another and not be cowed by terror? Do you wish for martial law to silence all dissent? It certainly seems that way.
		
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It's call patriotism and all these people in Scotland who want independence, then I they should pack their bags and pi.. off to another country because it's impossible to detach Scotland geographically! People who want independence weaken the Union, they are no better than the IRA, the FLQ or Catalans. Either you are for us or against us.


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## ycbm (24 May 2017)

Judgemental said:



			It's call patriotism and all these people in Scotland who want independence, then I they should pack their bags and pi.. off to another country because it's impossible to detach Scotland geographically! People who want independence weaken the Union, they are no better than the IRA, the FLQ or Catalans. Either you are for us or against us.
		
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This post is extremely offensive. I would report it, but in some ways I think it needs to stand to show what a twisted individual you must be to even think of writing such a thing


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## alainax (24 May 2017)

ycbm said:



			This post is extremely offensive. I would report it, but in some ways I think it needs to stand to show what a twisted individual you must be to even think of writing such a thing 

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100% agree.


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## Judgemental (24 May 2017)

ycbm said:



			This post is extremely offensive. I would report it, but in some ways I think it needs to stand to show what a twisted individual you must be to even think of writing such a thing 

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I knew somebody would say something to that effect because it evidences how few people in Scotland understand that Independence means Separatists. Do report the comment to the moderator.

The IRA were and are Separatists
The FLQ (Front de libération du Québec ) were Separatists
The Catalans are Separatists

Anybody who wants independence from their United Sovereign Nation State is a SEPARATIST.

(At least I did not go as far as the Daily Mail the other day who referred to the SNP as Saboteurs)


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## alainax (24 May 2017)

Judgemental said:



			I knew somebody would say something to that effect because it evidences how few people in Scotland understand that Independence means Separatists. Do report the comment to the moderator.

The IRA were and are Separatists
The FLQ (Front de libération du Québec ) were Separatists
The Catalans are Separatists

Anybody who wants independence from their United Sovereign Nation State is a SEPARATIST.

(At least I did not go as far as the Daily Mail the other day who referred to the SNP as Saboteurs)
		
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No but you did say we should **** off to a different country. This is our country, Scotland is a country. We are in our country! We are also part of a united union of countries, collectively known as the UK.

Who are you to tell people to leave their country. Do you see me shouting at all the English to leave England because some of them chose to leave the EU? England is in Europe, so on your logic all the English should move out? Don't be so ridiculous. 


You are  absolutely  pot calling the kettle black. England is allowed to vote to be free from the EU, but if Scotland dares to wish to be free from the UK, then we have to all get out of our own country? Smashing.


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## Judgemental (24 May 2017)

alainax said:



			No but you did say we should **** off to a different country. This is our country, Scotland is a country. We are in our country! We are also part of a united union of countries, collectively known as the UK.

Who are you to tell people to leave their country. Do you see me shouting at all the English to leave England because some of them chose to leave the EU? England is in Europe, so on your logic all the English should move out? Don't be so ridiculous. 


You are  absolutely  pot calling the kettle black. England is allowed to vote to be free from the EU, but if Scotland dares to wish to be free from the UK, then we have to all get out of our own country? Smashing.
		
Click to expand...

Depends how you interpret the presentation.

The EU is not a country.

What many overlook is the fact a large number of folk now over the age of 60, voted for The Common Market in good faith, on the strength of the then Prime Minister Wilson's assurances, it was a "Common Market" and not any a political enjoinment.

Clearly that has proved to be an out and out lie.

All these Separatists claim high minded reasons for wanting independence, but at the end of the day it is nothing more than vain glorious grandstanding. As a consequence, their bluff needs to be called and if they are so eager to separate from the UK, then as I say, they can pack their bags and go and live and work in an EU country. 

That goes for Remoaners in England & Wales & Northern Ireland too, they are thoroughly unpatriotic and should be loyal to the crown and constitution.


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## Snuffles (26 May 2017)

Someone I was talking to today said the SNP doesn't want to be ruled by Westminster, but are happy to be ruled by Brussels, is this a racist thing  against the English ? Their words not mine


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## alainax (26 May 2017)

Pic didn't work


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## alainax (26 May 2017)

Snuffles said:



			Someone I was talking to today said the SNP doesn't want to be ruled by Westminster, but are happy to be ruled by Brussels, is this a racist thing  against the English ? Their words not mine
		
Click to expand...


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## honetpot (26 May 2017)

This assumes there is a 3rd choice. After the fiasco of Greece, the poor economies in Spain and Italy, what dowry will the EU want?
  I do not know how many people live in Scotland, but that an awful lot bureaucracy to pay perhaps head of population when http://www.parliament.scot/ResearchBriefingsAndFactsheets/S5/SB_16-92_Earnings_in_Scotland_2016.pdf


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## Judgemental (26 May 2017)

Snuffles said:



			Someone I was talking to today said the SNP doesn't want to be ruled by Westminster, but are happy to be ruled by Brussels, is this a racist thing  against the English ? Their words not mine
		
Click to expand...

Snuffles this is typical of all Separatists the world over. They focus on an alternative and then gradually and deviously radicalise the population that they want as separatists along with them. Plainly Sturgeon and her disciples are hell bent on radicalisation to such an extent they lose sight of reality.

First they shout out for, Independence, then Separatism and then they become Saboteurs, fortunately we have not reached the latter stage.


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## Judgemental (30 May 2017)

Sources say that the SNP will probably scrape home with only 15 seats and they will definitely lose Perth. Reason too much INDEPENDENCE.


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## northernnewfiediva (31 May 2017)

Just as an (interesting, I think) aside, I work in a Parliamentary candidates office in Scotland and the single biggest concern that has been raised is the fear of another vote on fox hunting ......previously badgers and fox hunting have created more correspondence as topics than anything else, all put together. That includes benefit cuts and changes, foreign policy, foreign aid, refugees, bombed children, defence, broadband, women's pensions, the environment
 etc etc.......


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## Judgemental (31 May 2017)

northernnewfiediva said:



			Just as an (interesting, I think) aside, I work in a Parliamentary candidates office in Scotland and the single biggest concern that has been raised is the fear of another vote on fox hunting ......previously badgers and fox hunting have created more correspondence as topics than anything else, all put together. That includes benefit cuts and changes, foreign policy, foreign aid, refugees, bombed children, defence, broadband, women's pensions, the environment
 etc etc.......
		
Click to expand...

When it comes to the day of voting, foxhunting is  way down the list of priorities. Indeed in many urban areas, particularly London, Charlie Fox is very unpopular, because he defecates on pavements, lawns, parks and children's play areas. Interestingly, the majority of Londoners understand that the reason they have experienced a huge explosion in the urban fox population, is due to the fact they are no longer hunted in the countryside and increase in population there, thus migrating to the towns and cities where food is easy to scavenge. 

With the level of immigration to the UK from a host of countries in the EU where RABIES is endemic, I am surprised that Rabies has not found it's way to the big urban conurbations. If it did, your post bag or should I say bags will be stacked to the ceiling of your office.


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## Goldenstar (2 June 2017)

Judgemental said:



			When it comes to the day of voting, foxhunting is  way down the list of priorities. Indeed in many urban areas, particularly London, Charlie Fox is very unpopular, because he defecates on pavements, lawns, parks and children's play areas. Interestingly, the majority of Londoners understand that the reason they have experienced a huge explosion in the urban fox population, is due to the fact they are no longer hunted in the countryside and increase in population there, thus migrating to the towns and cities where food is easy to scavenge. 

With the level of immigration to the UK from a host of countries in the EU where RABIES is endemic, I am surprised that Rabies has not found it's way to the big urban conurbations. If it did, your post bag or should I say bags will be stacked to the ceiling of your office.
		
Click to expand...

What !!!  I will hand it to you JM - immigration causing rabies that's a novel one


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## MotherOfChickens (2 June 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			What !!!  I will hand it to you JM - immigration causing rabies that's a novel one
		
Click to expand...

its all those immigrants biting our foxes!


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## Judgemental (3 June 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			What !!!  I will hand it to you JM - immigration causing rabies that's a novel one
		
Click to expand...

There is nothing novel so far as immigration causing rabies is concerned.

Some of you people live in Cloud Cuckoo Land, because either you do not understand or want to understand the implications of unfettered immigration from the EU.

In the majority of EU countries Rabies - a notifiable disease is endemic and has not been eradicated and the the lackadaisical way in which in particular, the eastern block EU member states go on, it is never likely to be eradicated.

Therefore if we continue to allow all these immigrants and or migrants into the UK without proper controls, notwithstanding all the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, who are known to smuggle unvaccinated dogs onto the UK.

Frankly the sooner folk wake up to the lunatic policies of Sturgeon and Corbin so far as immigration are concerned, the better, because sooner of later, a dog with rabies will be brought into the UK.

Rabies is a notifiable disease and particularly nasty and in the majority of cases one will die from being bitten by a rabid dog. Don't suppose that treatment will be successful, it may be successful but the treatment for rabies is nearly as nasty as the disease.

If rabies is found in a dog or indeed a fox for that matter in the UK, a cordon sanitaire is made of approximately five miles around the area in which the animal was seen or captured. If it is in the country virtually everything in terms of wildlife is shot, which is exactly what as happened at Camberley when a rabies was discovered in the 70's.

In urban areas one would not be allowed to let one's dog out of the house or into the garden for at least 60 days following the Ministry declaring the quarantine area.

Immigration and in particular illegal immigration in juxtaposition to dogs and rabies is a most serious matter.


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## Buddy'sMum (3 June 2017)

Judgemental said:



			There is nothing novel so far as immigration causing rabies is concerned.

Some of you people live in Cloud Cuckoo Land, because either you do not understand or want to understand the implications of unfettered immigration from the EU.

In the majority of EU countries Rabies - a notifiable disease is endemic and has not been eradicated and the the lackadaisical way in which in particular, the eastern block EU member states go on, it is never likely to be eradicated.

Therefore if we continue to allow all these immigrants and or migrants into the UK without proper controls, notwithstanding all the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, who are known to smuggle unvaccinated dogs onto the UK.

Frankly the sooner folk wake up to the lunatic policies of Sturgeon and Corbin so far as immigration are concerned, the better, because sooner of later, a dog with rabies will be brought into the UK.

Rabies is a notifiable disease and particularly nasty and in the majority of cases one will die from being bitten by a rabid dog. Don't suppose that treatment will be successful, it may be successful but the treatment for rabies is nearly as nasty as the disease.

If rabies is found in a dog or indeed a fox for that matter in the UK, a cordon sanitaire is made of approximately five miles around the area in which the animal was seen or captured. If it is in the country virtually everything in terms of wildlife is shot, which is exactly what as happened at Camberley when a rabies was discovered in the 70's.

In urban areas one would not be allowed to let one's dog out of the house or into the garden for at least 60 days following the Ministry declaring the quarantine area.

Immigration and in particular illegal immigration in juxtaposition to dogs and rabies is a most serious matter.
		
Click to expand...

And here's what the WHO says about dog-transmitted rabies in Europe:
http://www.who.int/rabies/Presence_dog_transmitted_human_Rabies_2014.png?ua=1

Not big on facts, are you, J?


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## Judgemental (3 June 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			And here's what the WHO says about dog-transmitted rabies in Europe:
http://www.who.int/rabies/Presence_dog_transmitted_human_Rabies_2014.png?ua=1

Not big on facts, are you, J? 

Click to expand...

Thank you. You have provided irrefutable evidence of the existence of Rabies in the very countries from where immigrants and illegal immigrants, are entering the United Kingdom.

What is more, your excellent geography has highlighted just how small we are in relations to the large landmasses where rabies is present. Namely the whole of Africa, the Middle East, Russian Federations and associated countries along with the whole of Asia and the Far East.


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## Buddy'sMum (3 June 2017)

Judgemental said:



			Thank you. You have provided irrefutable evidence of the existence of Rabies in the very countries from where immigrants and illegal immigrants, are entering the United Kingdom. 

What is more, your excellent geography has highlighted just how small we are in relations to the large landmasses where rabies is present. Namely the whole of Africa, the Middle East, Russian Federations and associated countries along with the whole of Asia and the Far East.
		
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Erm, which of the countries in the WHO graphic I linked to which have reported cases of dog-transmitted rabies are members of the EU? 

Between 2006 and 2011 there were 12 cases of rabies in Europe. Hardly epidemic. Oh, and none were the result of exposure to rabid foxes. 

But don't let facts get in the way of your rant against ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. :rolleyes3:


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## Judgemental (3 June 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Erm, which of the countries in the WHO graphic I linked to which have reported cases of dog-transmitted rabies are members of the EU? 

Between 2006 and 2011 there were 12 cases of rabies in Europe. Hardly epidemic. Oh, and none were the result of exposure to rabid foxes. 

But don't let facts get in the way of your rant against ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. :rolleyes3:
		
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It's just one more reason why we should strictly control our borders, increases in unnatural numbers to our very small islands  from wherever and yes, we are seeing huge numbers from Middle Eastern countries and Africa in recent times, where Rabies is endemic. Therefore the risk of a rabid dog being transported or smuggled increases.


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## Judgemental (4 June 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			But don't let facts get in the way of your rant against ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. :rolleyes3:
		
Click to expand...

Yes well it's attitudes like that, that encourage terrorists and any Tom, Dick or Harry thinking and doing what they please. I hope the atrocities at Westminster, Manchester and a Stone's throw from Shakespeare's Globe theater eventually sink in, that this country will not tolerate illegal immigration or other cultures and religions, that disrupt British society. 

Frankly internment would be an ideal solution. Preferably in Scotland where Nazi prisoners of war were interned during WWII.

Yes, I like the idea of a UK Guantanamo Bay in Scotland. Let me think one of the islands would do such as Rhum.

That said there was a very interesting and such a camp on the Isle of Bute during WWII.

The idea of internment is much trailed in today's press.

Sturgeon and the SNP like all these immigrants, whether legal or illegal she/they  can have their own designated supply, to look after and radicalise into becoming Scottish Nationalists.


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## honetpot (4 June 2017)

What have you been taking??
  I will take you with a pinch of salt.


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## Judgemental (4 June 2017)

honetpot said:



			What have you been taking??
  I will take you with a pinch of salt.
		
Click to expand...

If you don't believe me.........

Interment: Could it help fight terrorism?
By Jennifer Scott
BBC News
30 May 2017


In the wake of the Manchester suicide bomb attack a former assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police has called for the reintroduction of internment camps.

With security services revealing there are 3,000 people engaged in plots in the UK and as many as 23,000 who have appeared on the radar of counter-terror agencies, Tarique Ghaffur - in charge during the 7/7 bombings - wrote in the Mail on Sunday that "a proper national debate" should take place.

or

7/7 Met police chief calls for extremists to be locked up in INTERNMENT camps as he says MI5 and police cannot keep track of 3,000 terror suspects

The controversial call came from Tarique Ghaffur, a Muslim former police chief

He warns there are too many extremists in UK for police, MI5 officers to monitor
Mr Ghaffur proposes special centres be set up to detain up to 3,000 extremists
He was Assistant Commissioner at Scotland Yard when 7/7 bombings took place 

By ABUL TAHER and MARTIN BECKFORD FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDAY

PUBLISHED: 00:30, 28 May 2017 | UPDATED: 15:43, 30 May 2017

Thousands of radical extremists must be locked up in new internment camps to protect Britain from the unprecedented terror threat it faces, a Muslim former police chief declares today.

Writing exclusively for The Mail on Sunday, Tarique Ghaffur warns there are too many extremists on the streets for police and MI5 officers to monitor.

Mr Ghaffur, an Assistant Commissioner at Scotland Yard when the 7/7 bombings took place, proposes that special centres be set up to detain as many as 3,000 extremists, where they can be kept from launching attacks. 

They would also be made to go through a de-radicalisation programme.

Thousands of radical extremists must be locked up in new internment camps to protect Britain, a Muslim former police chief declares today

Tarique Ghaffur warns there are too many extremists on the streets for police and MI5 officers to monitor 

Mr Ghaffur  believes the idea would work for extremists if the camps were approved by imams, whom he believes should also issue a 'fatwa' condemning atrocities	

He says: 'Let us have a proper national debate about this, and not be afraid to speak openly for fear of offending any communities, or for the sake of political correctness.'


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## Goldenstar (5 June 2017)

I fail to see the connection between radical extremism and rabies .
And I resent being told I live in cloud cuckoo land because in my case it's certainly total rot .
That sort of comment is usually made to mask a weak argument .


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## Buddy'sMum (5 June 2017)

Judgemental said:



			Yes well it's attitudes like that, that encourage terrorists and any Tom, Dick or Harry thinking and doing what they please. I hope the atrocities at Westminster, Manchester and a Stone's throw from Shakespeare's Globe theater eventually sink in, that this country will not tolerate illegal immigration or other cultures and religions, that disrupt British society. 

Frankly internment would be an ideal solution. Preferably in Scotland where Nazi prisoners of war were interned during WWII.

Yes, I like the idea of a UK Guantanamo Bay in Scotland. Let me think one of the islands would do such as Rhum.

That said there was a very interesting and such a camp on the Isle of Bute during WWII.

The idea of internment is much trailed in today's press.

Sturgeon and the SNP like all these immigrants, whether legal or illegal she/they  can have their own designated supply, to look after and radicalise into becoming Scottish Nationalists.
		
Click to expand...

So you know for a fact that those responsible for the attacks in London were ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, do you? Salman Abedi was British.

As I'm sure you're aware, the "very interesting" camp on Bute during WWII was a concentration camp. 

You're sick, Judgemental!


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## Judgemental (5 June 2017)

Buddy'sMum said:



			The "very interesting" camp on Bute during WWII was a concentration camp. 

You're sick, Judgemental!
		
Click to expand...

Concentration Camp - shocking and on the wee isle of BUTE, appropriate for the H & H forum don't you think :lol:

Seemingly Run by the Scot's, it gets more shocking by the minute. Still it means you have a background to run the UK's 'Guantanamo Bay' project.


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## honetpot (5 June 2017)

Judgemental said:



			If you don't believe me.........

Interment: Could it help fight terrorism?
By Jennifer Scott
BBC News
30 May 2017


In the wake of the Manchester suicide bomb attack a former assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police has called for the reintroduction of internment camps.

With security services revealing there are 3,000 people engaged in plots in the UK and as many as 23,000 who have appeared on the radar of counter-terror agencies, Tarique Ghaffur - in charge during the 7/7 bombings - wrote in the Mail on Sunday that "a proper national debate" should take place.

or

7/7 Met police chief calls for extremists to be locked up in INTERNMENT camps as he says MI5 and police cannot keep track of 3,000 terror suspects

The controversial call came from Tarique Ghaffur, a Muslim former police chief

He warns there are too many extremists in UK for police, MI5 officers to monitor
Mr Ghaffur proposes special centres be set up to detain up to 3,000 extremists
He was Assistant Commissioner at Scotland Yard when 7/7 bombings took place 

By ABUL TAHER and MARTIN BECKFORD FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDAY

PUBLISHED: 00:30, 28 May 2017 | UPDATED: 15:43, 30 May 2017

Thousands of radical extremists must be locked up in new internment camps to protect Britain from the unprecedented terror threat it faces, a Muslim former police chief declares today.

Writing exclusively for The Mail on Sunday, Tarique Ghaffur warns there are too many extremists on the streets for police and MI5 officers to monitor.

Mr Ghaffur, an Assistant Commissioner at Scotland Yard when the 7/7 bombings took place, proposes that special centres be set up to detain as many as 3,000 extremists, where they can be kept from launching attacks. 

They would also be made to go through a de-radicalisation programme.

Thousands of radical extremists must be locked up in new internment camps to protect Britain, a Muslim former police chief declares today

Tarique Ghaffur warns there are too many extremists on the streets for police and MI5 officers to monitor 

Mr Ghaffur  believes the idea would work for extremists if the camps were approved by imams, whom he believes should also issue a 'fatwa' condemning atrocities	

He says: 'Let us have a proper national debate about this, and not be afraid to speak openly for fear of offending any communities, or for the sake of political correctness.'
		
Click to expand...

I am old enough to remember internment in N. Ireland, my brother who was a soldier did three tours of duty. Anyone who knows about that time will remember that people were being shot and bombed on a regular basis. We had attacks on the mainland, many Irish fled the troubles and started new lives here and there was no mass internment, a friend who I trained with lost her Irish accent completely on purpose, she has a home counties accent. 
  So how do you decide who is the good or the bad guy? By skin colour, how they speak? Internment breeds resentment and is a breeding ground for radicalisation ( the prison system also seems to be not a good environment) and on a practical level we can not afford it. 
  Do you mark them out with a nice armband?
I hope you are just 'trolling', your views are seriously scary and shows so little insight it could be laughable, and are extremist is themselves. I am not a member of your targeted communities, but I could because I have red hair and have roots in Scotland.

 I think the biosecurity of the UK is already more likely to be compromised by bird flu, and blue tongue or you could worry about TB in bovines that could give you a disease that is getting increasing more difficult to treat


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## Buddy'sMum (5 June 2017)

Judgemental said:



			Concentration Camp - shocking and on the wee isle of BUTE, appropriate for the H & H forum don't you think :lol:

Seemingly Run by the Scot's, it gets more shocking by the minute. Still it means you have a background to run the UK's 'Guantanamo Bay' project.
		
Click to expand...

Concentration camps are hardly a laughing matter. And no, it wasn't run by Scots.


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## Judgemental (5 June 2017)

honetpot said:



			I am old enough to remember internment in N. Ireland, my brother who was a soldier did three tours of duty. Anyone who knows about that time will remember that people were being shot and bombed on a regular basis. We had attacks on the mainland, many Irish fled the troubles and started new lives here and there was no mass internment, a friend who I trained with lost her Irish accent completely on purpose, she has a home counties accent. 
  So how do you decide who is the good or the bad guy? By skin colour, how they speak? Internment breeds resentment and is a breeding ground for radicalisation ( the prison system also seems to be not a good environment) and on a practical level we can not afford it. 
  Do you mark them out with a nice armband?
I hope you are just 'trolling', your views are seriously scary and shows so little insight it could be laughable, and are extremist is themselves. I am not a member of your targeted communities, but I could because I have red hair and have roots in Scotland.

 I think the biosecurity of the UK is already more likely to be compromised by bird flu, and blue tongue or you could worry about TB in bovines that could give you a disease that is getting increasing more difficult to treat
		
Click to expand...

Bird flu TB, so what, get a grip and come out of Cloud Cuckoo land lest you contract Bird Flu.:biggrin4:

I assure you I am not a Troll and post on this forum regularly.

We need to go in hard and fast, round up the 3000 odd terrorists on the loose and place them in Interment Camps in Scotland.

Look at what has just been reported in the press. As for resentment, tough, enough is enough of namby pamby wet left leaning management.

I am told that if Internment became a feature, all these terrorists and foreign radicals would leave the UK faster than you could say Saharan Dust or should I say you won't see them for dust. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

REPORTED ON THE BBC - there's a nice bunch of lefties.

'Britons have had enough, stop watching & act!' Raging BBC caller slams terror watchlist

A SEETHING caller urged the Government to &#8220;round up&#8221; thousands of people on terror watch lists in the UK and to put them in prison to stop future attacks.

By DARREN HUNT
PUBLISHED: 11:16, Mon, Jun 5, 2017 | UPDATED: 12:03, Mon, Jun 5, 2017

The caller was outraged by the London Bridge terror attack which killed 7 people and left 48 people injured on Saturday night. 

Talking to BBC Radio London's Petrie Hosken, the caller urged the Government to crack down on potential terrorists. 

He said: &#8220;It needs looking into. And another point now Theresa May has made this statement. We know there are thousands of people they&#8217;re watching. 

&#8220;Let&#8217;s not watch them. What happened before we watch them until someone does something, it&#8217;s too late then. Round them up, internment. 

The furious caller urged the Government to crack down on potential terrorists in the UK

&#8220;It&#8217;s the same &#8216;mandy-pandy&#8217; status it&#8217;s become, frightened to do the wrong thing. 

&#8220;It's not the wrong thing, it&#8217;s the right thing.&#8221;

The caller then claimed politicians should &#8220;listen&#8221; to what the people want, reiterating that more needed to be done. 

He added: &#8220;If any politician would actually listen to the people for a change. 

Labour DO back &#8216;shoot to kill&#8217; policy on terrorists

&#8220;It&#8217;s an obvious fact that the British people have had enough and something needs to be done.

&#8220;These people are being watched, round them up.&#8221;

To those who were born in Britain, the angry caller insisted the UK should &#8220;keep them in prison, end of&#8221;. 

He added: &#8220;What&#8217;s happening is people are watching these people and you heard their neighbours saying &#8216;oh was a nice bloke he helps with the community, blah blah&#8217;. 

&#8220;And then bang on a Saturday evening he decides to go out and do that with a couple of his friends.

&#8220;No, if you have got any inclination in that way at all, internment, if they are born in this country, internment forever, that&#8217;s it, end of.&#8221;


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## MotherOfChickens (5 June 2017)

Judgemental said:



			Yes well it's attitudes like that, that encourage terrorists and any Tom, Dick or Harry thinking and doing what they please. I hope the atrocities at Westminster, Manchester and a Stone's throw from Shakespeare's Globe theater eventually sink in, that this country will not tolerate illegal immigration or other cultures and religions, that disrupt British society. 

Frankly internment would be an ideal solution. Preferably in Scotland where Nazi prisoners of war were interned during WWII.

Yes, I like the idea of a UK Guantanamo Bay in Scotland. Let me think one of the islands would do such as Rhum.

That said there was a very interesting and such a camp on the Isle of Bute during WWII.

The idea of internment is much trailed in today's press.

Sturgeon and the SNP like all these immigrants, whether legal or illegal she/they  can have their own designated supply, to look after and radicalise into becoming Scottish Nationalists.
		
Click to expand...

that camp and others (for anyone that doesnt know) were run by the Polish and under Polish jurisdiction under the Allied Forces Act. They mainly consisted of Polish army members who didnt fit in, Jewish soldiers, gay men and communists. 

To accuse Scottish nationalists of  being radicalised is also offensive. why no questioning of your darling Theresa and he arming the Saudis in all of this? or her questionable record as Home Secretary?


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## Judgemental (5 June 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			that camp and others (for anyone that doesnt know) were run by the Polish and under Polish jurisdiction under the Allied Forces Act. They mainly consisted of Polish army members who didnt fit in, Jewish soldiers, gay men and communists. 

To accuse Scottish nationalists of  being radicalised is also offensive. why no questioning of your darling Theresa and he arming the Saudis in all of this? or her questionable record as Home Secretary?
		
Click to expand...

So! Don't you people understand we are at war?

When Scottish Nationalists unite with the British in patriotic loyalty, then one will begin to believe and trust them they are not Radicals and Separatists.

Lest ye lose sight of the origins of this this thread, it was, indeed I who started it, because Sturgeon and her band of Separatists, welched and ran word on the deal over the Hunting Act 2004 to amend via the Statutory Instrument to mirror hunting in Scotland. On the premise they would abide by the agreement English Votes for English Laws.

But no, Sturgeon and her disciples were thoroughly dishonest and pulled their intention to stand aside in the debate, at the last moment so the then Business Secretary Nick Grayling had to pull the debate from the following week's business in the House of Commons.

That is darn right dishonesty and bluntly the SNP cannot be trusted.


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## Goldenstar (5 June 2017)

Clearly she's no democrat there's no argument about that .


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## Judgemental (7 June 2017)

Time for a prediction or two. Conservatives will have a majority of 110. Suppose I should I say, give or take. Reason: UKIP votes will generally go to the Conservatives. 

Bear in mind 4 million voted UKIP at the last election and now they have 'nowhere to go' except the Conservatives.

As a result, I rehearse the prediction SNP will only win 15 seats largely due to a very positive campaign by the Conservatives in Scotland.

That said, the BREXIT and or Scottish UKIP voters, many of whom were traditionally Labour, will switch to to Conservatives.

Finally the manifesto pledge to restore hunting has been well received in the South West. All my Liberal Democrat neighbours have declared their loyalty to the Conservatives.

Some will say  "ah but that is countered by the antipathy towards hunting in urban areas". Those voters would vote in any event for Labour. 

Predict it will be an electoral winter for Labour in the countryside but they will do quite well in London. Might even pick up several seats in Scotland


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## Judgemental (9 June 2017)

Well what a disaster, save for the fact Sturgeon has had her wings seriously clipped, delighted to see Robertson, Salmon and Ahmed-Sheikh amongst others lost their seats.

The Democratic Unionist Party, ha, it will be interesting to see how their support for the government is received by Sinn Fein.

Will repeal of the Hunting Act 2004 still be included in the Queen's Speech.


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## fburton (9 June 2017)

Maybe "IRA sympathizer" Corbyn can persuade Sinn Fein MPs to take up their seats in parliament to prop up the opposition.


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## Alec Swan (10 June 2017)

Judgemental said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Will repeal of the Hunting Act 2004 still be included in the Queen's Speech.
		
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Not a hope in hell.  As stout as my support is for Hunting and the repeal of this wrong-filled Act,  we have far greater concerns,  from a national perspective,  than that of Hunting.

Alec.


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## Judgemental (10 June 2017)

fburton said:



			Maybe "IRA sympathizer" Corbyn can persuade Sinn Fein MPs to take up their seats in parliament to prop up the opposition.
		
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Beginning to wonder that just may be, Messrs Adams & Co of Sinn Fein might decide, that perhaps the seats in the House of Commons are worth trying for 'comfort' in these exceptional circumstances.


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## Judgemental (22 June 2017)

From my knowledge of Scotland and the people of Scotland I find it incredible that they are prepared to give Ms Sturgeon the time of day....

Nicola Sturgeon forced to ask Brussels for farm payment extension to avoid £60 million fine
Nicola Sturgeon's government has asked the European Commission for an extension to a farm payment deadline
 Simon Johnson, scottish political editor 
22 JUNE 2017  8:10PM
Nicola Sturgeons government has been forced to issue a last-ditch appeal for more time to make thousands of delayed farm subsidy payments in the hope of avoiding up to £60 million of EU fines.

For the second year running, the Scottish Government has approached the European Commission asking for the June 30 payment deadline to be extended following the catastrophic failure of a £178 million computer system that was supposed to hand out the money.

If they fail to get a deal, Scotlands taxpayers face paying tens of millions of pounds of fines. As of last week, around 6,000 farmers  a third of the total  had yet to receive their Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) money.

Ms Sturgeon was last night accused of attempting to cover up the appeal, which was made on Tuesday, to extend the payment deadline until October 15.

The First Minister repeatedly dodged questions from Ruth Davidson in the Holyrood chamber on whether there had been a specific request. It was finally confirmed by the European Commission.

Ms Davidson, the Scottish Tory leader, accused her of breaking a promise to farmers to fix the payment system following last years debacle and overseeing a culture of secrecy and denial.

The row broke out as Michael Gove, the new UK Environment Secretary, used a visit to the Royal Highland Show in Edinburgh to pledge that Scottish farmers will not lose out on subsidies as a result of Brexit.

 Ruth Davidson &#10004; @RuthDavidsonMSP
Great day at the Highland Show. While I was listening to farmers, the SNP gov was having the truth about farm payments dragged out of them..
The Scottish Governments request for an extension to the CAP deadline came after a progress report into the botch payment computer system, published last week, found it will not be resolved until next year at the earliest.
An emergency loan scheme has been set up to prevent farmers going out of business but auditors estimated that the Scottish Government faces up to £60 million of fines for late payment.
They warned last year that £125 million of fines could be levied, but only £5 million was paid out after the Commission agreed an extension to the 2016 deadline.
Ms Davidson said: Nicola Sturgeon and Fergus Ewing promised they would fix their broken farm payments system after last years debacle.

Instead, we now learn that the SNP has once again failed to deliver on time for Scotlands rural economy  risking another huge fine and further delays for hard-pressed farmers and crofters. Instead of confronting this issue when I raised it with her today, the First Minister tried to duck it.
She added: This sorry episode only confirms that the culture of secrecy and denial in the SNP government goes right to the top.
Earlier, at First Ministers Questions, Ms Davidson asked whether the Scottish Government had been contact with the European Commission over delays this this years payments. Ms Sturgeon replied there were regular discussions with Brussels.
Pressed if her government had asked for an extension to the deadline, Ms Sturgeon said ministers would continue to discuss any contingency arrangements that we consider are required.
Challenged by Ms Davidson to provide a clear yes or no response on whether there had been a request, the First Minister said officials are working hard to process the remaining payments.

The Scottish Tory leader pointed out there was only eight days to go until the deadline with nearly 6,000 farmers waiting for their 2016 CAP payment. The Conservatives later cited official figures showing that significantly fewer than 1,000 applications a week are being processed.

Speaking shortly after First Ministers Questions, Ms Sturgeons official spokesman disclosed there had been contact at official level about the deadline and the possibility of an extension.

But it was not until late afternoon that European Commission sources confirmed that a specific request had been received for the payment deadline to be moved to October 15.

Visiting the Royal Highland Show, Mr Gove said leaving the EU offers huge opportunities to farmers and producers believe sales could be doubled.


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## Judgemental (23 June 2017)

She can't even pay the farmers and one wonders if they will ever be paid?

'We don't want to hear sorry again!' Farmers REJECT Sturgeon's apology over EU payments

ANGRY farmers today dismissed Nicola Sturgeon's latest apology for the EU subsidy shambles.

By TOM MARTIN
PUBLISHED: 00:00, Fri, Jun 23, 2017 | UPDATED: 15:48, Fri, Jun 23, 2017
Nicola SturgeonPA
Angry farmers dismissed Nicola Sturgeon's apology
Industry leaders said they did not want "to hear sorry again" with cash delayed for the second year in a row.

Vital Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) payments have been stalled by the Scottish Government's jinxed £178million IT system.

The First Minister was accused of treating Holyrood with "utter contempt" after refusing to tell MSPs she went begging to Brussels for a three-and-half month deadline extension.

Tories also said Rural Economy Secretary Fergus Ewing should consider quitting over the latest debacle.

RELATED ARTICLES
Sturgeon accused of 'going ROGUE' after criticising watchdog
Nicola Sturgeon forced to apologise to farmers over delayed payments
We are making significant progress now on payments and on resolving the remaining IT issues in the system
Nicola Sturgeon
Her administration faces up to £60 million in EU fines if it fails to process thousands of outstanding payments by next Friday.

On Thursday Ms Sturgeon repeatedly dodged questions over whether there had been a specific request to move the cut off.

But the European Commission later confirmed it was approached on Tuesday to shift the June 30 deadline to October 15.

Ministers were also forced to seek an extension last year because of botched payments that left farmers and crofters on the brink of collapse.

Nicola Sturgeon blames payment delays on Brexit
Play Video
Nicola SturgeonPA
Ms Sturgeon repeatedly dodged questions over whether there had been a request to move the cut off
Ms Sturgeon today visited the Royal Highland Show at Ingliston, Edinburgh, amid a countryside backlash over the delays.

She insisted there was "no complacency" in her government with a "100 per cent focus" on making payments on time.

The First Minister said: "We are making significant progress now on payments and on resolving the remaining IT issues in the system.

"We have already apologised and we do so again today to farmers for the failures that have been experienced in the system and I guarantee that we will continue to give this matter our full focus and attention to ensure that farmers get the service that they deserve."

Nicola SturgeonPA
Ms Sturgeon apologised to the farmers for the failures that have been experienced in the system
But Andrew McCornick, president of the National Farmers Union Scotland, warned the country's rural economy was being put in "jeopardy" with investment decisions being put on hold.

He said: "Farmers and crofters should have been the first to know that once again there is to be a delay in payments.

"This does nothing to restore trust or build confidence.

"We have had many apologies about the system.


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## Isbister (23 June 2017)

Not very good for the Scottish farmers, and not a very encouraging performance from a party with aspirations to take over the entire panoply of state. 

However, the way Westminster is going, there will soon be little enough to crow about down here either.


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## Judgemental (28 September 2017)

My goodness I have not posted on this thread since June. I thought, "Nicola you have seen sense, been reading my posts and in effect taken to the top of the mountain and shown the promised land". 

Despite the SNP being nearly wiped out at the General Election, she will not learn and now we have the following:



Queen facing HUGE bill over Nicola Sturgeon&#8217;s dreaded shooting tax rules

THE Queen is facing a massive bill after the return of the estate shooting tax.

By CHLOE KERR
11:04, Thu, Sep 28, 2017 | UPDATED: 12:50, Thu, Sep 28, 2017
Land reform plan for Scotland unveiled

Some of Britain&#8217;s biggest landlords may owe millions of pounds of taxes on their vast Scottish estates.

Around 10,000 landowners are to get letters this week informing them how much shooting on their land is worth.

Another 8,000 letters are to go out next year.

The Times reports they are will charged up to £1 an acre for the land with potential for deer and bird hunting.

The Queen is facing a hefty bill

The Queen owns around 70,000 acres in Scotland, Danish millionaire Anders Holch Povlsen owns 220,000 and the Duke of Buccleuch has a staggering 240,000 acres.

The land valuation and shooting tax are part of Nicola&#8217;s Sturgeon&#8217;s &#8220;radical&#8221; land reforms that came into law last year.

Scotland has one of the most concentrated systems of land ownership in the developed world, with just 432 people in control of 50 per cent of the nation&#8217;s privately held land.

Supporters of the law say it will throw out the &#8220;feudal and ache&#8221; system, but critics say it is designed to drive out English landlords.

Nicola Sturgeon brought in the reforms last year

Liberal Democrat Jim Hume described the new tax proposals as part of a "political move targeted at the landed gentry".

The law already allows communities the right to buy land without an owner's consent. 

And the Scottish National Party reintroduced sporting rates, which had been abolished in the 1990s.

Estates worth less than £15,000 will be exempt from the tax under a small business relief scheme. 

The largest estates will qualify for a &#8216;volume discount&#8217;, but details of that have not been made public yet. 

Nicola Sturgeon has reintroduced the shooting tax in Scotland
The Scottish government hopes to earn around £4million a year from the tax, which will then be used to boost the Scottish Land Fund. 

Calum Innes, a partner at Galbraiths property consultancy told The Times: &#8220;I think it is unlikely that the government will raise £4 million. 

&#8220;The vast majority of entries on the role are expected to be at a level where it is unlikely that they will pay rates.&#8221;

The Queen owns 70,000 acres in Scotland
Critics of the reform fear that it will drive shooting out of Scotland.

Peter Chapman, a Conservative MSP, said told The Times: &#8220;Shooting makes a significant contribution to Scotland&#8217;s society, economy and environment, so we cannot afford to see this suffer.&#8221;

Details of the scheme were leaked to Fieldsports Britain, a YouTube channel, who suggest that landowners will be charged between 38p and £1 an acre. 

Over a million acres of land in Scotland is used to shoot animals for sport, including grouse, deer and pheasant.


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## Snuffles (28 September 2017)

Good. I dont agree with shooting for sport . Dons camouflage jacket


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## MotherOfChickens (28 September 2017)

I think the Queen can afford it as can the people who shoot.


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## Isbister (28 September 2017)

The vultures are beginning to circle.

A resurgent Corbyn manoeuvring for power - it could soon happen. 

Last one to leave, turn out the lights.


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## Alec Swan (28 September 2017)

Judgemental said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Over a million acres of land in Scotland is used to shoot animals for sport, including grouse, deer and pheasant.
		
Click to expand...

With that same acreage also being managed to the benefit of wildlife in general and the resultant revenue benefiting those who couldn't give a toss,  either way.  Society,  whatever the stance of the individual is in a win-win situation,  all except those that is,  who feel that it's theirs anyway or who trot out the lines that no one should be wealthy.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (28 September 2017)

Judgemental said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. 

Estates worth less than £15,000 will be exempt from the tax under a small business relief scheme. 

&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
Click to expand...

The smallest of gardens which fall within the curtilage of the average semi-detached bungalow should be exempt then! 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (28 September 2017)

Judgemental said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Nicola Sturgeon has reintroduced the shooting tax in Scotland
The Scottish government hopes to earn around £4million a year from the tax, which will then be used to boost the Scottish Land Fund. 

&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
Click to expand...

Those who are fortunate to own these vast areas are already taxed upon the earnings derived from the land and for what ever purpose it's managed,  but it seems that this isn't enough.

I wonder if Sturgeon has actually thought this through,  or do we suppose that as she's floundering in the popularity polls,  that she's making a last ditch attempt by appealing to the radical element,  those who I suspect care little for their heritage.

Alec.


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## Judgemental (13 October 2017)

This thread has hit 79,097 visits and represents more visits than any other non-sticky thread.

That said, Hunting Terms for Beginners, a sticky is only marginally over 80,000 visits.

Whilst not taking any personal satisfaction as the OP, it does go to show that Ms Sturgeon and the SNP are a source of interest, concern and worry, especially as she would happily do away with our nuclear deterrent.


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## ycbm (14 October 2017)

Judgemental said:



			This thread has hit 79,097 visits and represents more visits than any other non-sticky thread.

That said, Hunting Terms for Beginners, a sticky is only marginally over 80,000 visits.

Whilst not taking any personal satisfaction as the OP, it does go to show that Ms Sturgeon and the SNP are a source of interest, concern and worry, especially as she would happily do away with our nuclear deterrent.
		
Click to expand...

Hate to tell you Judgemental, but I only look at this thread to see what daft thing you've said now. I'll give you credit though, tis an amusing thread.


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## Crugeran Celt (14 October 2017)

As for English votes for English laws, yeah, you can have that. Just as soon as Scots get a government they actually voted for!![/QUOTE]

Isn't it ironic that as the EU are trying to tie all of Europe together with one set of laws for all one currency for all and an unvoted in government to rule over it Scotland want more say in their little part of the world, England want to be able to vote on their own as do Wales and now Spain is joining in to split as well. I am a bit confused that the SNP support staying in the EU but want out of Britain. They don't mind having their lives ruled by a government that they will probably have no influence over in Europe but hate the idea of a government they can have a say in based in London.


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## Alec Swan (14 October 2017)

Judgemental said:



			This thread has hit 79,097 visits and represents more visits than any other non-sticky thread.

.. .
		
Click to expand...

I'm not too sure of the validity of that claim J-m,  when half of the visits are from you! :wink3::biggrin3:

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (14 October 2017)

Crugeran Celt said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Isn't it ironic that as the EU are trying to tie all of Europe together with one set of laws for all one currency for all and an unvoted in government to rule over it Scotland want more say in their little part of the world, England want to be able to vote on their own as do Wales and now Spain is joining in to split as well. I am a bit confused that the SNP support staying in the EU but want out of Britain. They don't mind having their lives ruled by a government that they will probably have no influence over in Europe but hate the idea of a government they can have a say in based in London.
		
Click to expand...

The contradictions seem endless,  don't they?  

Alec.


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## Judgemental (14 October 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm not too sure of the validity of that claim J-m,  when half of the visits are from you! :wink3::biggrin3:

Alec. 

Click to expand...

Alec what a caution you are LOL :clap:  Where that the case I would not have time to service and give acres of advice on my Twitter page with 22K of Followers, who are considerably more respectful than some on this forum that I could name.  Present company excepted. (Thinks plotting appropriate tweet)

Bet there are some who will race off and do a search of Judgemental on Twitter LOL x 20

Feel sorry for anybody who has a Judgemental handle - ha

Good grief, just checked there are hundreds of them and only one on Horse and Hound. One could lay a serious Social Media Heel Line.

Better keep quiet about my Facebook page, then I could be unmasked and that would be really embarrassing. Facebook, Unmasked, OK well I thought it was funny.


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## Judgemental (1 November 2017)

In light of the developments in Catalonia and the Spanish government, branding the separatists revolutionaries, one wonders where that leaves our separatist brethren in Scotland.

Messrs Juncker and Tusk have stated that they do not want the EU bothered by 'fractures' and yet, it is the Scottish separatists who want to be part of the EU.

Plainly they will not and never will set an acceptable example in the EU.

This thread now exceeds all other hunting threads in terms of views. 

For anybody new to the forum, it was started because the SNP and Mrs Sturgeon welched and or reneged, on a deal for English Votes for English laws. In particular not to interfere with an amendment to the Hunting Act 2004 by Statutory Instrument which could have easily passed through the Commons and Lords.

Thereby making life easier for farmers in the West Country and elsewhere, so far as the damage and economic depreciation created by the large herds of red deer, feasting off valuable dairy, beef and sheep grassland and meadows.


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## Judgemental (2 November 2017)

Interesting how European countries deal with SEPARATISTS :clap:

It makes a number of instructive points to our brethren north of the border. The same would happen in the UK!

Perish the thought there might be a sintillia of schadenfreude in this post 


"Eight sacked Catalan officials are JAILED as European arrest warrant is issued for ousted leader after he defied Spanish call to hand himself in
The Deputy First Minister and seven of his senior colleagues have been jailed 
A European arrest warrant is expected to be issued against Carles Puigdemont
His lawyer in Belgium says 54-year-old intends to fight any extradition request 
Nazi salutes and jeers greeted Catalan politicians as they arrived to hand themselves into police in Madrid

By JAKE WALLIS SIMONS, ASSOCIATE GLOBAL EDITOR, IN BARCELONA & PAUL THOMPSON IN BRUSSELS, FOR MAILONLINE
PUBLISHED: 10:36, 2 November 2017 | UPDATED: 18:12, 2 November 2017

A judge in Madrid has jailed eight former Catalan regional ministers behind the failed independence bid over fears they will attempt to flee the country.

The Deputy First Minister and seven of his senior colleagues were taken to a jail on the outskirts of the capital Madrid after appearing before the Spanish High Court to answer charges of sedition and rebellion.

The region's former leader Carles Puigdemont &#8211; who fled to Brussels with four of his colleagues on Monday &#8211; remains at large but has yet to comment on the action taken against his ministers.

A European arrest warrant has now been issued for Puigdemont along with the four others who failed to turn up in Madrid, newspaper La Vanguardia said. A spokeswoman for the High Court could not confirm the warrant had been issued.

Carles Puigdemont, the former president of Catalonia, and four other ex-Cabinet members are in Belgium and ignored court summonses to appear for questioning	

The Catalan ministers were sacked from their positions after the Spanish Government invoked Article 155 to seize control of the regional Government following an illegal referendum on independence.

Those jailed overnight include the vice president Oriol Junqueras, Home Affairs Minister Joaquim Form, Foreign Affairs Minister Raul Romeva, Governance, Meritxell Borras, Presidency Jordi Tull, Social Affairs Minister Dolores Bassa, Justice Minister Carles Mundo and Terrotory Mnister Josep Rull.

Ex-Catalan president 'is planning to copy Julian Assange and...

'She doesn't know if she will ever see her husband again':...

Deposed Catalan President 'to return to face the music in...
Only Santi Vila, the former head of the Catalan business department, was granted bail and ordered to pay a bond of 50,000euro to stay out of jail.

The jailed ministers were taken from the court to the Soto del Real penitentiary outside Madrid".


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## Roasted Chestnuts (2 November 2017)

Christ JM do you have a life? Or do your kids or grandkids have just as little time to listen to your waffle as most of us do on here? 

Honestly you drag this thread to the top as it&#8217;s probably the only attention you get in life


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## Judgemental (2 November 2017)

Black Beastie said:



			Christ JM do you have a life? Or do your kids or grandkids have just as little time to listen to your waffle as most of us do on here? 

Honestly you drag this thread to the top as it&#8217;s probably the only attention you get in life 

Click to expand...

"Christ", yes if that's your perception, who am I to argue.

You sound like a very frightened separatist, busy chopping up your SNP membership card.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (2 November 2017)

you are very misguided 

Was never a member  well I&#8217;m not allowed to say **** the right way but I wouldn&#8217;t even name you as the poop off that guys shoes so definitely not regardless of what your sizeable ego says to the contrary.


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## Judgemental (2 November 2017)

Black Beastie said:



  you are very misguided 

Was never a member  well I&#8217;m not allowed to say **** the right way but I wouldn&#8217;t even name you as the poop off that guys shoes so definitely not regardless of what your sizeable ego says to the contrary.
		
Click to expand...

One said "you sound like", not you are.

That said, it's all over for the SNP and all their wild aspirations to separatism.

The EU will never never entertain Ms Sturgeon and her merry band of separatists. Do they really want a bunch of folk akin to the Catalans. Of course not.

The rank and file of the SNP will evaporate. An EU member state (Spain) have set 
a precedent and jailed a group of separatists.


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## Judgemental (3 November 2017)

This is the result of separatism and will be mirrored in Scotland in the event Ms Sturgeon and the SNP separate from the UK. UNEMPLOYMENT! :eek3: :eek3:

This thread would have never been originated, had Ms Sturgeon and the SNP not reneged on their deal with the government, concerning the amendment to the  Hunting Act 2004. 

For folk reading this, in the Opinion of the OP it is very unwise to renege on anything to do with hunting and horses. Folk never forget or forgive.......

"Catalonia crisis leaves 15,000 out of a job :eek3:

Graham Keeley, Barcelona
November 3 2017, 12:00pm, 

The Times

Nearly 2,000 companies have moved their legal headquarters out of the region since the independence vote
SERGIO PEREZ/REUTERS

Almost 15,000 people lost their jobs in Catalonia last month as political instability eroded business confidence and triggered redundancies and hiring freezes.

The unemployment rate in Catalonia, Spain&#8217;s wealthiest region, rose at the highest rate in the country in October, a stark contrast to the same month last year when it fell by 43,000.

The numbers emerged as a judge prepared to issue a European arrest warrant today for the detention of Carles Puigdemont, the renegade former Catalan leader who is in Belgium."


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## Judgemental (10 January 2018)

Well, I never thought I would agree with the SNP or Ms Sturgeon, about anything.

Yet we are as one on the subject of Fracking which makes me very uncomfortable and the Scottish ban is in my opinion welcome. I sincerely hope the attempt by INEOS to have the ban overturned by the Court of Session is unsuccessful. 

It always intrigues me that the owner of INEOS and the Oil Refinery at Grangemouth is a Mr Jim Ratcliff who lives on the Beaulieu River in Hampshire and has his office in Lyndhurst in the middle of the New Forest all about as far from Grangemouth and Scotland as possible. Interestingly INEOS also has an office in Rolle Switzerland.   

Also interestingly INEOS recently bought the oil pipeline from BP from the 40's field which has had to be immediately shut down because it is leaking.

Good on you Ms Sturgeon and the SNP, just for once you have your eye on the ball and you are doing the right thing.

There is far far more to this subject collectively! 

Energy group Ineos to challenge Scotland's ban on fracking

Elisabeth O'Leary

EDINBURGH (Reuters) - Energy group Ineos has applied to launch a legal challenge to the Scottish government&#8217;s ban on onshore unconventional oil and gas development in Scotland, known as &#8220;fracking&#8221;, arguing the ban was imposed unlawfully. 

FILE PHOTO: A logo is pictured in the headquarters of INEOS chemicals company in Rolle, Switzerland, November 13, 2017. REUTERS/Denis Balibouse
Scotland decided to outlaw fracking in October after a public consultation found overwhelming opposition to it. 

However, Ineos said that decision flew in the face of other expert reports conducted several years earlier which concluded that shale gas could be produced safely and has applied for a judicial review. 

The application will be heard at the Court of Session, Scotland&#8217;s supreme civil court, and the company expects a decision on whether there is a case to be heard within a couple of months, INEOS Shale operations director Tom Pickering told Reuters.


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## Judgemental (10 January 2018)

Ledgered twice in error

Well, I never thought I would agree with the SNP or Ms Sturgeon, about anything.

Yet we are as one on the subject of Fracking which makes me very uncomfortable and the Scottish ban is in my opinion welcome. I sincerely hope the attempt by INEOS to have the ban overturned by the Court of Session is unsuccessful. 

It always intrigues me that the owner of INEOS and the Oil Refinery at Grangemouth is a Mr Jim Ratcliff who lives on the Beaulieu River in Hampshire and has his office in Lyndhurst in the middle of the New Forest all about as far from Grangemouth and Scotland as possible. Interestingly INEOS also has an office in Rolle Switzerland.   

Also interestingly INEOS recently bought the oil pipeline from BP from the 40's field which has had to be immediately shut down because it is leaking.

Good on you Ms Sturgeon and the SNP, just for once you have your eye on the ball and you are doing the right thing.

There is far far more to this subject collectively! 

Energy group Ineos to challenge Scotland's ban on fracking

Elisabeth O'Leary

EDINBURGH (Reuters) - Energy group Ineos has applied to launch a legal challenge to the Scottish government&#8217;s ban on onshore unconventional oil and gas development in Scotland, known as &#8220;fracking&#8221;, arguing the ban was imposed unlawfully. 

FILE PHOTO: A logo is pictured in the headquarters of INEOS chemicals company in Rolle, Switzerland, November 13, 2017. REUTERS/Denis Balibouse
Scotland decided to outlaw fracking in October after a public consultation found overwhelming opposition to it. 

However, Ineos said that decision flew in the face of other expert reports conducted several years earlier which concluded that shale gas could be produced safely and has applied for a judicial review. 

The application will be heard at the Court of Session, Scotland&#8217;s supreme civil court, and the company expects a decision on whether there is a case to be heard within a couple of months, INEOS Shale operations director Tom Pickering told Reuters.


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## Alec Swan (10 January 2018)

So with much of the decision making for the Scots devolved to the Scottish parliament,  their decision that they don't want fracking and-or they've refused a quote,  is illegal?

So by the same level of lunacy,  a window salesman can come to my house,  offer to quote for replacement windows,  I turn him down and he can sue me?

We're in a world of madness,  that we know,  but if there is any case to answer,  **** **.  It all rather smacks of Trump and golf courses,  doesn't it?

Alec.


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## Judgemental (10 January 2018)

Alec Swan said:



			So with much of the decision making for the Scots devolved to the Scottish parliament,  their decision that they don't want fracking and-or they've refused a quote,  is illegal?

So by the same level of lunacy,  a window salesman can come to my house,  offer to quote for replacement windows,  I turn him down and he can sue me?

We're in a world of madness,  that we know,  but if there is any case to answer,  **** **.  It all rather smacks of Trump and golf courses,  doesn't it?

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Alec this is a unique subject which will I suggest, may become very significant. 

Bear in mind Ineos declared Force Majeure on all oil contracts being pumped out of the Forties field, the moment they purchased the aging pipeline from BP because of an alleged leak. Curious very.

However, folk need to remind themselves of the following:

"Ineos writes down Grangemouth assets to zero - Telegraph

www.telegraph.co.uk &#8250; Finance &#8250; News by Sector &#8250; Pharmaceuticals and Chemicals
4 Oct 2013 - Ineos has cranked up pressure on the unions by writing down the value of its Grangemouth chemicals plant from £400m to zero and warning that it will close the facility unless it can cut costs".

Whilst I have consistently lamented matters where the SNP are concerned.

However, I feel very sorry for the people of Scotland and the SNP if the Fracking comes to pass.


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## Judgemental (13 January 2018)

Since the following report in The Scottish Daily Record, a) Ineos purchased the Forties Oil Pipe Line, shortly before Christmas 2017 which was promptly closed on the basis of an alleged leak b) there has been a general election and a weakened government has been returned.

Folk in Scotland would do well to ask a huge number of questions????????? 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk &#8250; News &#8250; Scottish News &#8250; FPS


Scottish News
FPS

Fury at billionaire Jim Ratcliffe 'bringing North Sea oil and gas pipelines under his control'

If the deal goes ahead the fracking supporter and owner of Grangemouth Refinary will have control of the pipeline system bringing in one million barrels a day from offshore fields.

By
Annie Brown & 

Charlie Gall,
18:38, 16 MAR 2017
Updated18:40, 16 MAR 2017

News
Billionaire boss of petrochemical giant Ineos Jim Ratcliffe has the pipelines which bring North Sea oil and gas ashore within his grasp, the Daily Record can reveal.

The owner of the Grangemouth Refinery is in talks with oil giant BP to buy the Forties Pipeline System (FPS) which would give him control over potentially more than one million barrels a day from offshore fields.

Fury erupted last night (Thurs) at the prospect of fracking supporter Ratcliffe, with his history of bad industrial relations, seizing the reins of such a strategic network.

Ratcliffe has been the driving force behind bringing the shale gas industry - onshore drilling known as fracking - to Scotland but has so far been thwarted by a Scottish Government ban.

One shocked oil industry source who fears putting the pipelines in Ratcliffe&#8217;s control said: &#8220;Holy *****. This would be like giving a monkey a machete.

&#8220;Letting Jim Ratcliffe loose on all the operators who feed into that pipeline is a dangerous, dangerous ploy.

&#8220;He could at a stroke just cull that whole region with ownership of that pipeline by increasing tariffs. Oil operators pay tariffs to put their product into the pipeline.

&#8220;If he were to start messing companies about with increased tariffs and everything else it could make their operations uneconomical.&#8221;
Another source said: &#8220;Rafferty already has one major bit of national infrastructure in his hands which he threatened to close in 2015, now he&#8217;s going to get another if this deal goes ahead - and that&#8217;s a concern.&#8221;

Last night both BP and Ineos confirmed to the Record that they were in discussions &#8220;regarding a potential sale&#8221;.

BP owns all of the Forties pipeline system and the oil that flows through the system is critical in setting the price of Dated Brent, an international crude benchmark.

Ratcliffe is notorious for the tough line he took in 2013 with workers at Grangemouth, Scotland&#8217;s biggest industrial site.

After a dispute over the suspension of a shop steward, he closed the plant and vowed to walk away for good unless workers accepted major cuts to their pensions and conditions.

Last night a Government source moved to allay fears that Ratcliffe could hold the country to ransom by gaining control of the FPS.

The Whitehall insider said that such large deals can be referred to the UK government for review and if there were any serious risk to the UK infrastructure Ministers could intervene.

They pointed out: &#8220;The UK Oil and Gas Authority issue permits to operate the pipeline infrastructure and operators in the North Sea are obliged to comply with their policy of &#8216;maximum economic recovery&#8217;. If they do not the Authority can stop the permit and re-issue it to another operator.&#8221;

In effect, if Ineos were to &#8220;turn off the tap&#8221;, the Government could strip the company of its pipeline control and award it elsewhere.

The Government insider added: &#8220;Also, there are so many contracts with suppliers coming on and off the pipeline that the commercial consequences of a close down would be disastrous for an operator.&#8221;

However an industry insider said: &#8220;There&#8217;s still the spectre of someone like Ratcliffe who&#8217;s pushing the fracking agenda being able to cause problems by holding such control over a key element of our energy industry.

&#8220;Despite the safeguards, he could still make life difficult to bring pressure to bear on Government and who&#8217;s to say he couldn&#8217;t absorb any losses incurred during that time.&#8221;


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## Judgemental (13 January 2018)

There are many reasons to ban Fracking. 

One very good reason is the matter of Private Water supplies and Ground Surface water that horses inevitably drink. Where mains water is not supplied.

I say inevitably because 'inevitably' water that has come into contact with Fracking and the chemicals that are used, inevitably and eventually comes to the surface.

Why the equine world and industry has not been far more proactive is a mystery.


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## Judgemental (15 January 2018)

Judgemental said:



			There are many reasons to ban Fracking. 

One very good reason is the matter of Private Water supplies and Ground Surface water that horses inevitably drink. Where mains water is not supplied.

I say inevitably because 'inevitably' water that has come into contact with Fracking and the chemicals that are used, inevitably and eventually comes to the surface.

Why the equine world and industry has not been far more proactive is a mystery.
		
Click to expand...

Equally the same applies to drinking water in streams, ponds and burns for cattle, sheep and deer. 

Particularly considering the deep aquifers.

Aquifer - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquifer

An aquifer is an underground layer of water-bearing permeable rock, rock fractures or unconsolidated materials (gravel, sand, or silt) from which groundwater can be extracted using a water well. The study of water flow in aquifers and the characterization of aquifers is called hydrogeology.


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## Judgemental (26 January 2018)

From The Rotherham Advertiser:

'Bypassed' planners accuse fracking firm of arrogance

By Gareth Dennison | 25/01/2018 

'Bypassed' planners accuse fracking firm of arrogance 
Cllr Alan Atkin

ROTHERHAM&#8217;S planning board chairman held back tears as he defended council officers from criticism by fracking firm Ineos.

Emotional Cllr Alan Atkin said the way RMBC staff had been treated by the chemical company was &#8220;appalling&#8221;.

Ineos appealed against non-determination, claiming the council had taken too long to make a decision on the Harthill drilling application.

The move came weeks after RMBC stated that it was minded to refuse the application because of fears about road access.

The planning board met today to discuss what evidence it will take to the Planning Inspectorate&#8217;s public inquiry, where the decision will be made.

Cllr Atkin said: &#8220;Our planning officers are some of the best in Britain. They have been treated badly by Ineos and, quite frankly, it&#8217;s shameful.

&#8220;We&#8217;ve got many testimonials from people up and down the country to say that our officers bend over backwards to help developers.&#8221;

Vice chairman Cllr Simon Tweed told the meeting: &#8220;I&#8217;m very sorry to the people of Harthill that we&#8217;re not here as a planning board, being able to make the decision.

&#8220;These planning officers, to say they delayed this application is absolutely rubbish. All they did was give Ineos more time.

&#8220;Ineos didn&#8217;t want the planning board members to make this decision.&#8221;

Cllr Jenny Whysall said: &#8220;Ineos have denied public democracy. I think they have acted very badly on that score.&#8221;

And Cllr Richard Price added: &#8220;I&#8217;m quite shocked by what appears to be contempt by Ineos for local democracy. It kind of stinks of corporate greed and arrogance.&#8221;


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## Judgemental (26 January 2018)

Judgemental said:



			From The Rotherham Advertiser:

'Bypassed' planners accuse fracking firm of arrogance

By Gareth Dennison | 25/01/2018 

'Bypassed' planners accuse fracking firm of arrogance 
Cllr Alan Atkin

ROTHERHAM&#8217;S planning board chairman held back tears as he defended council officers from criticism by fracking firm Ineos.

Emotional Cllr Alan Atkin said the way RMBC staff had been treated by the chemical company was &#8220;appalling&#8221;.

Ineos appealed against non-determination, claiming the council had taken too long to make a decision on the Harthill drilling application.

The move came weeks after RMBC stated that it was minded to refuse the application because of fears about road access.

The planning board met today to discuss what evidence it will take to the Planning Inspectorate&#8217;s public inquiry, where the decision will be made.

Cllr Atkin said: &#8220;Our planning officers are some of the best in Britain. They have been treated badly by Ineos and, quite frankly, it&#8217;s shameful.

&#8220;We&#8217;ve got many testimonials from people up and down the country to say that our officers bend over backwards to help developers.&#8221;

Vice chairman Cllr Simon Tweed told the meeting: &#8220;I&#8217;m very sorry to the people of Harthill that we&#8217;re not here as a planning board, being able to make the decision.

&#8220;These planning officers, to say they delayed this application is absolutely rubbish. All they did was give Ineos more time.

&#8220;Ineos didn&#8217;t want the planning board members to make this decision.&#8221;

Cllr Jenny Whysall said: &#8220;Ineos have denied public democracy. I think they have acted very badly on that score.&#8221;

And Cllr Richard Price added: &#8220;I&#8217;m quite shocked by what appears to be contempt by Ineos for local democracy. It kind of stinks of corporate greed and arrogance.&#8221;
		
Click to expand...

A visit to Twitter and enter either Jim Ratcliffe and/or Ineos in the search box is to say the least, frightening!


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## Judgemental (5 February 2018)

Judgemental said:



			A visit to Twitter and enter either Jim Ratcliffe and/or Ineos in the search box is to say the least, frightening!
		
Click to expand...

102544 views. That must be some sort of a record on this Forum?

Fracking and all that it entails will become a highly vexed subject.


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## Judgemental (14 February 2018)

Undoubtedly Fracking is a complete disaster for water supplies!

From The Sheffield Telegraph 13 February 2018.

"Ron Coyle, new CEO of Ineos Shale made one really scary remark. This former US army captain stated that there is enough gas underground to &#8220;meet the UK&#8217;s energy demands for over 100 years&#8221;. Up to now the frackers&#8217; propaganda has been to reassure the authorities that shale gas is for short-term energy security, to bridge a supposed 20 &#8211; to 40-year gap between the end of North Sea oil and renewable sources. Coyle&#8217;s promise of 100 years of fracking is a very different ball game. Do the maths? A fracking Licence Area is a 6x6 mile block. Within each block, 15 to 30 well pads could be built in the next few years. To take the Marsh Lane &#8216;test&#8217; site as an example, picture the countryside and villages between Norton to Staveley, or Mosborough to Dronfield infected by a pox of such &#8216;pads. Each well up to two miles deep and capable of penetrating horizontally for another mile. It would then be &#8217;fractured&#8217; with a high pressure blast&#8217; of a water/chemical mix to get the gas to flow. Eight to 12 wells could be sunk from each pad, say 150 per block. Ineos has purchased rights to 20 such licence blocks within 30 miles of Sheffield and another 40 within 60-80 miles. You do the maths. The company boasts an ambition to become the major player in fracking across England, snapping up weaker competitors as they fail. This tactic has been repeated again and again in the last 20 years to make Coyle&#8217;s ultimate boss, rags-to-riches Jim Ratcliffe, one of the richest men in Britain at £6 billion. Fracking will not reduce our gas bills. Some of the shale gas from here will be piped to Ineos&#8217;s massive petro-chemical works in Scotland. There they are the leading UK manufacturer of non-recyclable plastics. Plastic pollution starts at Grangemouth. Sir David Attenborough should be told. A turning point? Within the UK only England remains open to fracking. Wales, Ireland, France, Germany, and several states in the USA have already banned it. Four months ago Ineos were kicked in the teeth by the Scottish government&#8217;s vote for a moratorium on fracking, despite the company&#8217;s near stranglehold over Scotland&#8217;s fuel economy. Ratcliffe, Coyle and Co are desperate to secure an advanced toehold in the Sheffield region before the political tide turns against them in England under a weakened Tory government. Last week in the Derbyshire County Planning Committee, Tory and Labour councillors united nine to one, not to support the application to sink a &#8216;test&#8217; shale gas well at Marsh Lane. Short-term victory, but Ineos is determined to bulldoze over local opinion. Battle resumes in four months with the government&#8217;s Planning Inspectorate. This is a question of democracy and who has the power. It is not just NIMBY moaning, or &#8216;lefty-green&#8217; environmental fantasy. It is about how much power can private firms be allowed to wield for their own profit in the face of public opinion? England should follow the lead of the nations around us &#8211; the whole UK should be frack-free"

 Read more at: https://www.sheffieldtelegraph.co.u...king-epidemic-to-last-for-100-years-1-9015598


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## fburton (14 February 2018)

Fracking updates appreciated, Judgemental. It's a worrying issue.


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## ycbm (14 February 2018)

OH does a neutral presentation to local groups about fracking.

The essence of the presentation can be summed up as follows.

Fracking has a high impact on the local area while it is operation but this is associated with a local economic boom.


Fracking has a high visual impact on the local area when compete, with concrete beds and storage tanks close together in largely rural areas. 

There are a number of concerns about potential pollution but they are much lower than activists would have you believe. Lower does not mean non-existent. Wells are, for example far below the aquifers and in theory cannot contaminate them - unless the cladding on the drill hole fails higer up (Deepwater Horizon).

On a national level, we may in future be unable to power and feed the country without it, in which case it would be a necessity which overrides all local planning and environmental considerations. 

Fracking is not currently economically viable. Even in the vast shale beds in the US, wells are failing earlier than expected, and new wells are being financed with new investment, not with any profit (because there is none) from existing operations.

Hope that helps. Any  mistakes are OHs, not mine  but I can provide the presentation and data if anyone wants a copy. PM your email address. If you are local, he doesn't charge for the presentation to charities.

PS we are right on the Cheshire basin fracking area and can see the lorries going into a test drill site that is being kept quiet.


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## Judgemental (14 February 2018)

fburton said:



			Fracking updates appreciated, Judgemental. It's a worrying issue.
		
Click to expand...

The geography of the British Isles is far too small and condensed to cope with contamination of water supplied due to Fracking.

Whereas the geography and topography of the United States and huge distances, mitigates the damage and risk.

Anybody with a private water supply should automatically oppose Fracking


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## Judgemental (25 February 2018)

There is a remarkable paradox contained in the issue of Fracking, The National Trust and the latter's issue when it comes to hunting. Wake up folks, your land is no longer your land or the water thereon or thereunder.

"Ineos given permission to take High Court action for fracking survey

By Press Association 

Published: 16:53, 22 February 2018  | Updated: 16:53, 22 February 2018  

A bid by energy giant Ineos to carry out a fracking survey on National Trust land is to be heard in court.

The company has been granted permission to pursue its application to undertake a geophysical survey in Clumber Park, Nottinghamshire, to the High Court.

Lynn Calder, commercial director of Ineos Shale, said: &#8220;Legal action has been the last resort and we have used powers which prevent landowners from blocking projects which benefit the wider community and the nation as a whole.

Ineos to take legal action to allow access for shale survey at Clumber Park (National Trust/PA)

Ineos to take legal action to allow access for shale survey at Clumber Park (National Trust/PA)

&#8220;These surveys are both routine and necessary across the UK, including on National Trust land.

&#8220;The National Trust&#8217;s position is very disappointing as we have had positive relationships with a range of stakeholders and landowners during surveys.

&#8220;We have addressed a variety of stakeholder concerns in the past and are sorry the National Trust wouldn&#8217;t even have discussions with us in this case owing to a political objection to shale gas.&#8221;

The National Trust said: &#8220;Our founding principle is to protect the beautiful places in our care, and we believe Ineos has not yet followed the proper planning process, which would involve them fully considering the potential environmental impacts.

&#8220;Clumber Park is a Grade I listed park and gardens, much of which is a Site of Special Scientific Interest, and visited by over half a million people each year.

&#8220;In our view, Ineos haven&#8217;t demonstrated to the Trust why it is necessary to carry out any surveys here or address our other reasons for refusing to grant access.

&#8220;We have no wish for our land to play any part in extracting gas or oil. We are already seeing the impacts of climate change at many of our places, and we have launched a programme to dramatically cut our own fossil fuel usage at our properties.&#8221;

Ineos said if shale gas proves to be successful it provides the UK economy with competitive energy as well as investment and jobs in the North of England.

Guy Shrubsole, Friends of the Earth campaigner, said: &#8220;A huge fracking firm suing the National Trust to test for shale gas within the historic Sherwood Forest area will make people wonder what is sacred any more.

&#8220;The spirit of Robin Hood will be bridling at these bully-boy tactics.&#8221;


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## Judgemental (11 March 2018)

Sherwood Forest.      
Anti-fracking campaigners protest against the plan by Ineos to do seismic surveys in public forests across Nottinghamshire, including Sherwood Forest. Photograph: Ian Francis/Alamy 

The application by Ineos to explore for shale gas in South Yorkshire has been rejected by local councillors, bringing the number of planning decisions that have gone against fracking companies this year to seven.

Rotherham metropolitan borough turned the application by the UK-based petrochemicals firm to drill a well near the village of Woodsetts on grounds that it could harm wildlife and cause traffic problems.

Ineos had argued that the work would be small scale, have no significant impact and was on agricultural land with little ecological value. 

However, the council&#8217;s planning board voted unanimously against the application, following a meeting on Thursday. 

The rejection is the seventh this year by councils across the Midlands and the north of England against fracking companies&#8217; applications to test existing wells, drill new ones and revise traffic plans, according to Drill or Drop, a site which monitors the shale industry. 

While some of the councils are controlled by Labour, which has a national policy of banning fracking, several are controlled by the Conservatives, who promised to develop a shale industry in last year&#8217;s manifesto. 

The only green light has been for Cuadrilla, to test for oil flows at an existing well near the village of Balcombe, in West Sussex.


Sign up to the daily Business Today email or follow Guardian Business on Twitter at @BusinessDesk 

The planning delays are another headache on top of new financial tests that ministers have imposed on companies seeking government permission to frack, which were blamed on Wednesday for Third Energy postponing fracking to the autumn at a site in North Yorkshire. 

The shale industry said it now took on average 58 weeks to get a planning decision on the drilling of a vertical well for exploration, up from 13 weeks five years ago.

Ineos is attempting to use fast-track powers created by the government in 2015 to get a decision on two separate shale drilling applications, one in Derbyshire and one near Rotherham. However, that process is still expected to take months.


Police in body armour assist a tanker heading for a test drill site operated by the British energy firm Cuadrilla, in Balcombe, Sussex. Photograph: Leon Neal/AFP/Getty Images 

Jim Ratcliffe, the billionaire owner of Ineos, has been a vocal advocate for extracting shale gas in the UK. Woodsetts is one of a handful of sites Ineos had hoped to drill. 

Rotherham&#8217;s planning officials had recommended against the application on the basis that insufficient ecological surveys had been carried out, to protect birds and bats. 

Fracking opponents told councillors they were concerned about noise, water and air pollution, as well as traffic problems created by HGVs.

Sue Gilversleve, a resident in the village and member of the group Woodsetts Against Fracking, said: &#8220;We know it sounds a bit like a disaster movie, but this disaster movie is coming to a village near you.&#8221;

Andy Tickell, of the regional branch for the Campaign to Protect Rural England, said: &#8220;Simply put, this is industrialisation of sensitive and attractive countryside.&#8221; 


 Fracking &#8211; the reality, the risks and what the future holds  


Read more 

During the sometimes heated meeting, the operations director of Ineos, Tom Pickering, had his microphone switched off by the chair, councillor Alan Atkin, for continuing to talk after being asked to stop. &#8220;I am not having anyone ridden roughshod over this planning board,&#8221; Atkin told Pickering. &#8220;Ineos has not covered itself in glory,&#8221; he added.

One councillor who attacked Ineos&#8217;s behaviour also retracted his comments, after being told by Atkin to apologise for the remarks.

Friends of the Earth said the rejection, the second by Rotherham within months, was deeply significant.

Ineos said it was disappointed by the decision. &#8220;We feel that the plans presented offer the right amount of ecological mitigation as part of what is a straightforward application. The fact that a majority of external statutory consultees agree that this is the case, exemplifies this point,&#8221; it said in a statement


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## ycbm (12 March 2018)

Why don't you start a new thread for a new subject JM? No-one's going to find this here unless they follow your posts.


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## Judgemental (14 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Why don't you start a new thread for a new subject JM? No-one's going to find this here unless they follow your posts.
		
Click to expand...

What do you suggest?


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## ycbm (14 March 2018)

Judgemental said:



			What do you suggest?
		
Click to expand...

A fracking thread in Current Affairs or Clubhouse.


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## Judgemental (16 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			A fracking thread in Current Affairs or Clubhouse.
		
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I did initially consider an alternative venue, however there is a subtle point to this thread and my sources have indicated, that it has been picked up by the SNP.

Ms Sturgeon has taken on board one's displeasure and aggrieved position, concerning her's and the SNP's failure, to honour their undertaking, not to interfere with any vote in the House of Commons concerning the Hunting Act 2004.

Thereby supporting the matter of English votes for English laws.

Moreover it has been taken on board that this thread has generated over 110 thousand views.

Clearly Ms Sturgeon and the SNP now realise, that 'we' can be helpful in supporting their opposition to Fracking.

So on a quid pro quo basis, it is now in the SNP's interests to help any amendment in the House of Commons to the Hunting Act 2004. Whether that would be via abstaining under the proposed Statutory Instrument or indeed, voting in favor of any proposal remains to be seen.

Nevertheless, the SNP are grateful for our support and it is given with complete munificence.


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## ycbm (16 March 2018)

You are seriously delusional. Can you pass me some of whatever you're taking


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## Judgemental (16 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			You are seriously delusional. Can you pass me some of whatever you're taking 

Click to expand...

It would be in the interests of the SNP to agree that the rules of hunting in England and Wales should now mirror that of Scotland. 

More I will not say in terms of the details and agenda. Save to say it will happen.


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## Judgemental (30 March 2018)

It seems folk are at last waking up to the issues of Fracking but too little too late.


CLA condemns fracking company&#8217;s approach to land access


Philip Clarke

Thursday 29 March 2018 6:00 


Tim Breitmeyer, CLA President

The Country Land and Business Association (CLA) has written to leading fracking company Ineos, complaining about its recent approaches to farmers and landowners in relation to accessing land for seismic surveys and future shale gas extraction.

The letter, from CLA president Tim Breitmeyer (pictured), has been triggered by Ineos&#8217;s decision to seek High Court action against the National Trust over its refusal to grant access to one of its large estates in Nottinghamshire.

See also: Fracking firm to challenge National Trust in High Court

But a spokesman said the letter also reflected the CLA&#8217;s more general concern about Ineos&#8217;s recent behaviour, including its requests for farmers and landowners to grant access to their land to carry out seismic testing.

&#8220;Until recently, our members have been sympathetic to Ineos&#8217;s approach,&#8221; said Mr Breitmeyer in his letter. &#8220;A number of the larger estates with which you have been working report that they were able to negotiate mutually acceptable arrangements.

&#8220;However, the recent decision to take the National Trust to court, to force them to grant access for seismic surveys, and your comments that if there was sufficient gas Ineos could go back to court to force the Trust to allow it access to drill and extract it, completely undermines the positive approach you have taken to date.&#8221;

While insisting that the CLA takes no position for or against fracking, Mr Bretimeyer says the organisation is &#8220;clear in our defence of a landowner&#8217;s right to decide what activities take place on their land&#8221;.

He called on Ineos to retract the statement, or risk damaging relations with landowners.

Obligations

But Ineos insists it is pursuing the National Trust in the courts only to help it meet its obligation to complete its seismic surveys, which is part of its commitment to government.

&#8220;It is certainly the case that landowners have the right to say &#8216;no&#8217; to seismic testing; and we do not need 100% access in the survey area, so we can certainly handle some objections,&#8221; said Ineos&#8217;s commercial director, Lynn Calder.

&#8220;But we can&#8217;t fulfil our obligation to government if whole organisations or groups of landowners say no.

&#8220;So we are able to challenge the National Trust using the Mines Act 1966, though we have to prove that we are being unreasonably impeded from fulfilling our duty. We certainly do not envisage taking every single landowner down that route if they say no to seismic testing.&#8221;

Meanwhile, Ineos has challenged a Scottish government ban on fracking, taking it to judicial review with the results expected in May.


The three stages of fracking
&#8226;Preparatory stage &#8211; involving seismic testing to see if the site looks promising
&#8226;Appraisal stage &#8211; including construction of a well pad, then hydraulic fracturing to assess gas flow rates
&#8226;Production stage &#8211; full extraction and gas processing established


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## Judgemental (31 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			You are seriously delusional. Can you pass me some of whatever you're taking 

Click to expand...

In order to expand upon the question of Fracking, the SNP and the Scottish government, who plainly are wholly opposed to Fracking anywhere in Scotland and rightly so.

For the wishes of the Scottish government to be sustained, it has to be seen that Fracking is banned throughout the United Kingdom.

Currently it is permitted under licence in certain parts of England and Wales.

If the SNP were to shall we say, 'leap into bed' with the Conservatives, as have the DUP on the understanding there will be English Votes for English laws for example.

Also that the Conservatives will support the Scottish ban on fracking by mirroring the ban in England and Wales, along with a variety of other measures. 

Bearing in mind the moves in Scotland concerning hunting and remembering that the Hunting Act 2004 does not apply to Northern Ireland.

Need one say more........well yes without the DUP Mrs May would not be in office and as I pointed out hunting the live quarry in Northern Ireland is perfectly legal. A fact not many folk realise. 

I am told the league never venture to Northern Ireland and interfere will hunting. I wonder why that could be?

That however is a satellite issue. 

No the real meat of the issue is the Fracking and it would not surprise me if a deal developed whereby the UK government supported a wholesale ban on Fracking and one or two other items on the shopping list, in return for an undertaking for the SNP to agree to English votes for English laws.

Especially as the issue of BREXIT is somewhat shaky in the House of Commons and what the government might concede to Mrs Sturgeon.


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## Judgemental (31 March 2018)

Judgemental said:



			In order to expand upon the question of Fracking, the SNP and the Scottish government, who plainly are wholly opposed to Fracking anywhere in Scotland and rightly so.

For the wishes of the Scottish government to be sustained, it has to be seen that Fracking is banned throughout the United Kingdom.

Currently it is permitted under licence in certain parts of England and Wales.

If the SNP were to shall we say, 'leap into bed' with the Conservatives, as have the DUP on the understanding there will be English Votes for English laws for example.

Also that the Conservatives will support the Scottish ban on fracking by mirroring the ban in England and Wales, along with a variety of other measures. 

Bearing in mind the moves in Scotland concerning hunting and remembering that the Hunting Act 2004 does not apply to Northern Ireland.

Need one say more........well yes without the DUP Mrs May would not be in office and as I pointed out hunting the live quarry in Northern Ireland is perfectly legal. A fact not many folk realise. 

I am told the league never venture to Northern Ireland and interfere will hunting. I wonder why that could be?

That however is a satellite issue. 

No the real meat of the issue is the Fracking and it would not surprise me if a deal developed whereby the UK government supported a wholesale ban on Fracking and one or two other items on the shopping list, in return for an undertaking for the SNP to agree to English votes for English laws.

Especially as the issue of BREXIT is somewhat shaky in the House of Commons and what the government might concede to Mrs Sturgeon.
		
Click to expand...

Coupled to all this, is the matter of the border betwixt the Republic and the north, which Charlie Fox has a habit of crossing without a passport. Along with the hounds, field and masters etc. on every hunting day throughout the season. Again a fact and subject that does not get readily aired in Brussels or Westminster. There is no way the DUP will alter the status quo, which generally and in the highest of diplomatic terms is laughably discussed in terms of milk tankers collecting milk in the north for the creameries in the republic.


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## Judgemental (3 April 2018)

Judgemental said:



			Coupled to all this, is the matter of the border betwixt the Republic and the north, which Charlie Fox has a habit of crossing without a passport. Along with the hounds, field and masters etc. on every hunting day throughout the season. Again a fact and subject that does not get readily aired in Brussels or Westminster. There is no way the DUP will alter the status quo, which generally and in the highest of diplomatic terms is laughably discussed in terms of milk tankers collecting milk in the north for the creameries in the republic.
		
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39 packs of hounds in Northern Ireland that hunt the live quarry. Where the Hunting Act 2004 does not apply.


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## Judgemental (28 May 2018)

Well would you believe it, the irrepressible Nicola Surgeon has reappeared. I had quite forgotten about Ms Sturgeon.

Suppose she had to gain some attention, but has only succeeded by saying everybody is mad who supports BREXIT.

Thing is we have a saying down yer in the West Country, "everybody about these parts has gone Bodmin, except thee and me, and I sometimes wonder about thee".

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/9...on-Boris-Johnson-Jacob-Rees-Mogg-Michael-Gove

Nicola Sturgeon brands Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Gove 'MAD-Brexiteers' in SHOCKING interview

NICOLA STURGEON took a massive swipe at leading Brexit supporters Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Michael Gove during an interview in Brussels, branding them 'mad-Brexiteers'. 

By Darren Hunt  

 PUBLISHED:  12:00, Mon, May 28, 2018    | UPDATED: 18:15, Mon, May 28, 2018 

Sturgeon lashes out at Brexiteers for 'peddling myths'

Nicola Sturgeon, who has threatened to reignite her relentless push for Scottish independence, criticised Brexiteers Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Jacob Rees-Mogg.

The Scottish First Minister headed to Brussels on Monday to meet with the EU&#8217;s chief Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier.

During an interview with Politico, Ms Sturgeon took the swipe at the leading Brexiteers.

She said: &#8220;What I am about to say is not necessarily the statement of opinion or how I might like the world to be, it is just a statement of fact.

&#8220;The EU has been pretty clear from day one. There can&#8217;t be a &#8216;pick n mix&#8217; approach, after Brexit the UK is a third country, and it will be dealt with and certain things will follow.

Nicola Sturgeon, Mr Rees-Mogg, Mr Johnson, Mr Gove

Brexit news: Nicola Sturgeon called Mr Rees-Mogg, Mr Johnson and Mr Gove mad-Brexiteers


&#8220;You can&#8217;t be in the club and ignore all of the founding rules of the club.

&#8220;I don&#8217;t think there has ever been a point from the EU&#8217;s side where that has not been made clear.

&#8220;But there has been, on the part of some people, the hard Brexiteers, a sort of willful refusal to accept that because they think they can still peddle all the myths they peddled during the referendum campaign."

She added: &#8220;It goes back to the point, two years ago you could possibly be a fantasist and have the moment of truth appearing to be quite far down the road.

&#8220;The moment of truth is now staring people in the face and sooner rather than later that moment of truth has to force a choice on the UK Government.&#8221;

Ms Sturgeon also claimed Westminster was not listening to a range of opinions on Brexit when she targeted Mr Johnson, Mr Gove and Mr Rees-Mogg.

&#8220;One of the problems for the UK Government right now, in my view, is that they are not really listening to anybody apart from the mad-Brexiteers,&#8221; she said.

&#8220;For the avoidance of doubt I am talking about people like Boris Johnson, just in case people thought I wasn&#8217;t naming names. Jacob Rees-Mogg, Michael Gove, I think we know who we are talking about here.

Rees-Mogg: May should use 'strongest card' in Brexit talks

One of the problems for the UK Government right now, in my view, is that they are not really listening to anybody apart from the mad-Brexiteers 

Nicola Sturgeon

&#8220;That&#8217;s the problem, even though I don&#8217;t think these people speak for a majority in there of their support for a hard-Brexit, they are the ones who are being listened too.&#8221;

The Scottish First Minister also claimed the UK was entering a &#8220;critical stage&#8221; in the next few weeks in Brexit negotiations.

She said: &#8220;To cut to the chase, reality at some point has to bite for the UK.

&#8220;Currently the Government is trying to reconcile a whole plethora of irreconcilable issues. At some point, it has to choose.

&#8220;At the point, it has to choose, I think there is a prospect that choice, because of the dynamic in the House of Commons and the country more generally that choice takes us in the direction of the customs union and single market.&#8221;

Nicola Sturgeon's most outrageous quotes
Sun, April 9, 2017 
The nationalist chief always has plenty to say 

'Men - the colour of their tie is the most difficult decision they have to make every day' 


'Men - the colour of their tie is the most difficult decision they have to make every day'

Ms Sturgeon&#8217;s visit to Brussels comes just days after she launched her economic blueprint for Scottish independence, although voters are still in the dark over the timing of any second referendum.

Ms Sturgeon said: &#8220;People and businesses are desperate for clarity on Brexit but with just months to go before the withdrawal agreement has to be signed the UK Government still cannot agree a position.

&#8220;This damaging uncertainty could come to an immediate end if only the UK Government would put jobs and living standards first and agree to continuing Single Market and Customs Union membership &#8211; for Scotland and the whole of the UK.&#8221;

Perhaps Ms Sturgeon needs to go to Bodmin


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## ycbm (28 May 2018)

I want some of what you're on


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## Judgemental (28 May 2018)

ycbm said:



			I want some of what you're on 

Click to expand...

Try some Daily Express, must be good, because this thread has topped 120,000 views.


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