# WOW Saddle on eBay not as described



## ycbm (17 December 2015)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wow-Saddl...998524?hash=item25b32f1a3c:g:riUAAOSwUdlWcVc8


I've tried to warn eBay about this but there is no way to do it other than phoning them up and their call centre is awful.  So if anyone is interested in buying this saddle, be aware that it is not as described. For a start it's not brand new. If you blow the photo up to the maximum, you can see that it has creases on the twist that only ever happen after use. For a second, it is at least nine years old. This can be seen by the fact that the stirrup bars are clearly visible and there is no stitch line on the edge of the leather above them. This also means that it is a resin seat, much heavier than the leather treed seats that have been supplied for the last eight years or so. This is backed up by the leather covered screws at the back of the panel, something WOW have not done for about ten years.  From the lack of a screw hole, the panel is the very first design which slotted on instead of screwing on, which makes them not easily interchangeable with current panels and worth little second hand.  As a consequence, it was most certainly NOT bought for £2,600 as the seller describes,  which is today's price, and is worth nowhere near the amount of money which it is listed for.  Don't be fooled by it if you are looking for a WOW.


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## webble (17 December 2015)

You can report items on ebay using the report item feature. That said it doesn't say how long ago it was bought new and then not used so it could have just been ins storage which would also potentially explain the creases


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## ycbm (17 December 2015)

webble said:



			You can report items on ebay using the report item feature. That said it doesn't say how long ago it was bought new and then not used so it could have just been ins storage which would also potentially explain the creases
		
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It does not allow you to report wrong wording, only categories of problems, and this does not fit any category they are trying to force me into.. The creases are characteristic of these saddles, and cannot be explained except by the saddle being sat in and the jointed tree rocked. The back plate is also scratched if you enlarge the photos enough. This is a VERY old and out of date WOW with a panel and seat design discontinued many years ago, being sold implying it was relatively newly bought and is current.

In case he is unaware of this, I have sent him a message to let him know.


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## jrp204 (17 December 2015)

In fairness, it may have been bought ' new' and it may have been bought more recently than you think. it does state it wasn't used due to illness so may have been sitting around for a while. It does look in very good condition and they have put a mobile number. 
I guess anyone who's interested can ring and check it is what they want. Not sure why it needs reporting there is nothing in the advert that is making it out to be something it isn't, apart from the suggested creasing.


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## ycbm (17 December 2015)

You don't think it's a issue that it's being sold as equivalent to a new one, when the seat weighs several pounds more - and weight is a big issue with these saddles - and the panels are not interchangeable - when the interchageability is the main reason why most people buy these saddles?  

I do, and it's doing no harm to let people who are less sharp eyed than me, or who don't know the little design changes that give away major internal modifications, that this saddle simply isn't worth what is being asked for it even though it looks good from the outside.


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## jrp204 (17 December 2015)

It says it was bought brand new, it may have been, they may have recently paid £2600. It may be 9 yrs old and they may have been ripped off. Maybe the saddle was what they wanted and due to illness was never used. It does not state it is a new model and you can ring the seller to check the details. To some people it may not matter it's a bit heavier or the panels aren't interchangeable.
They can ask what they want for the saddle and if they overpaid for it I suppose they will want to make something back.


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## ycbm (17 December 2015)

jrp204 said:



			It says it was bought brand new, it may have been, they may have recently paid £2600. It may be 9 yrs old and they may have been ripped off. Maybe the saddle was what they wanted and due to illness was never used. It does not state it is a new model and you can ring the seller to check the details. To some people it may not matter it's a bit heavier or the panels aren't interchangeable.
They can ask what they want for the saddle and if they overpaid for it I suppose they will want to make something back.
		
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It says 'cost new £2,600' and also says it was bought new.

I personally think that is extremely misleading and suggests that this actual saddle cost £2,600 and is therefore nearly new. Only people like me who really know WOWs inside out will be able to tell that it isn't. I think the ad is practically fraudulent, but for the moment I will assume that the seller simply doesn't know how out of date in two crucial ways this saddle is.


Anyway, I'm grateful for you bumping this thread so that plenty of people will get to see it.


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## smellsofhorse (17 December 2015)

Anyone buying on eBay has to be careful.
Plus buying a saddle for that amount of money they should do proper checks and look carefully at the pictures and even ask for more.
Looking at their feedback I don't think they are dodgy. Maybe just clueless about saddles!


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## Makemineacob (17 December 2015)

Why not ask the seller a question (by email through ebay) as to how old it is? If they are trying to be misleading then you will have concrete proof and can report the listing.


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## ycbm (17 December 2015)

smellsofhorse said:



			Anyone buying on eBay has to be careful.
Plus buying a saddle for that amount of money they should do proper checks and look carefully at the pictures and even ask for more.
Looking at their feedback I don't think they are dodgy. Maybe just clueless about saddles!
		
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Agreed.

But if I can help an HHOer not make an expensive mistake, it's costing only my time to do it 

If he ever answers me about how old it actually is, I'll update the thread.


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## ycbm (17 December 2015)

Makemineacob said:



			Why not ask the seller a question (by email through ebay) as to how old it is? If they are trying to be misleading then you will have concrete proof and can report the listing.
		
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I have, as I posted above. I can't report the listing, as I have posted above.


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## conniegirl (17 December 2015)

no where does it say or imply it was bought new recently!

It could have been bought from new a number of years ago and then stored due to the illness, often people will hang on to things for years hoping that they will one day be well enough to be able to use them!


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## ycbm (17 December 2015)

The most amazing black 18 inch brand-new WOW Saddle. Cost new £2600 this is the general-purpose model and so incredibly comfortable you would not believe it.

As you know these saddles can be adjusted in every way possible and is therefore ideal for any horse around 15 16.2
		
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conniegirl said:



			no where does it say or imply it was bought new recently!

It could have been bought from new a number of years ago and then stored due to the illness, often people will hang on to things for years hoping that they will one day be well enough to be able to use them!
		
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Does that text not strongly imply to you that it is current and was bought. for £2,600? It does to me.

Also, it is NOT fully adjustable. It lacks two bolt holes that are required to attach the current design of panel, so it will not be possible to change the panels without sending it back to the manufacturer to have the bolt holes added, if they can be.

No answer yet to my query, I'll update if I get one.


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## conniegirl (17 December 2015)

No actually I don't read anywhere that even vaguely implies it was bought recently. As for the price how do you know that they didn't pay £2600 for it when they bought it new?
Any saddle where the gullet can be changed is often concidered fully adjustable.

I realy don't see why you are getting your knickers in such a twist about this.
It does not read to me as though they are trying to rip anyone off just that the saddle has been sitting around for a while and They have finally come to the point where they either need to sell it to fund something or the wife has finally lost hope of ever riding again and the saddle is now causing unwanted emotions


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## webble (17 December 2015)

conniegirl said:



			No actually I don't read anywhere that even vaguely implies it was bought recently. As for the price how do you know that they didn't pay £2600 for it when they bought it new?
Any saddle where the gullet can be changed is often concidered fully adjustable.

I realy don't see why you are getting your knickers in such a twist about this.
It does not read to me as though they are trying to rip anyone off just that the saddle has been sitting around for a while and They have finally come to the point where they either need to sell it to fund something or the wife has finally lost hope of ever riding again and the saddle is now causing unwanted emotions
		
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^^this


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## ycbm (18 December 2015)

Well I've shown the advert, without discussing it, to several people and asked them to tell me how long ago they thought the saddle was bought, and all of them said it was bought within the last few months. So there are plenty of people who are not as clever as  Webble and Conniegirl, and for them, I'm happy to try to stop them from getting a huge disappointment by finding out they can't even change the panels on a 'new' WOW saddle and it weighs a ton more than they expected it to.

No answer to my question from the seller yet.


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## webble (18 December 2015)

ycbm said:



			Well I've shown the advert, without discussing it, to several people and asked them to tell me how long ago they thought the saddle was bought, and all of them said it was bought within the last few months. So there are plenty of people who are not as clever as  Webble and Conniegirl, and for them, I'm happy to try to stop them from getting a huge disappointment by finding out they can't even change the panels on a 'new' WOW saddle and it weighs a ton more than they expected it to.

No answer to my question from the seller yet.
		
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If the tone of your question to the seller was similar to the tone of your posts on here I wouldn't answer you either if I was the seller, you seem disproportionately angry about something that could be taken more than one way and could also be an innocent mistake


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## katherinef (18 December 2015)

ycbm said:



			Agreed.

But if I can help an HHOer not make an expensive mistake, it's costing only my time to do it 

If he ever answers me about how old it actually is, I'll update the thread.
		
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The seller by the way has 100% positive feedback.
In any event if they are selling for personal reasons they may feel quite emotionally sensitive as it is so I don't think this is helping the situation really.
I would back off I think.


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## Casey76 (18 December 2015)

Anyone looking seriously for a saddle wouldn't believe that saddle to be new.

Not with the scratches on the cantle and the indentations where the stirrup leathers sit.


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## Dry Rot (18 December 2015)

If I remember my contract law correctly (from back in the Stone Age), an advertisement is an "invitation to treat" so intended to draw in an interested party to discuss matters further and make a deal. I realise the law changed some time during the Bronze Age and an advertisement can now be considered as part of the contract but I don't think you are meant to take what an advertisement, especially one posted by a private seller, as the gospel truth. If you'd been led to buy the item on the basis of what was written in the advert, that would be a different matter. You'd have grounds to return it. But you've used your knowledge and intelligence to work out that the advert might be misleading. The sensible thing would be to contact the seller and ask specific questions. If the answers are untrue, then that is misrepesentation and a dfferent matter. But I'm not a lawyer and could very well be wrong! Never ever believe everything it says in the advert. It is designed to draw you in for further negotiations! A lot of sellers will also (quite rightly!) leave out the bad bits. They are not obliged to volunteer information but they are obliged to answer truthfully if you ask (but that's not a lot of good if you can't prove they've lied!).


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## ycbm (18 December 2015)

Why is anyone on this forum bothered about someone wanting to post facts about a saddle for sale?

I'm not expressing any opinions about the seller. All I want is to try to protect an innocent buyer from making a bad mistake. Why is that wrong?

Webble, The question I asked the seller was can you tell me how old your saddle is please'. I have not had an answer yet.


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## Doormouse (18 December 2015)

Seller notes:	&#8220;Bought brand-new for my wife 8 years ago and never used as she was diagnosed with arthritis just afterwards following a fall. Has only ever been on the horse for a fitting and one outing.&#8221;

That is in the seller notes, I read that first so knew it was bought 8 years ago.


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## Goldenstar (18 December 2015)

It's very clear the saddle is at least eight years old ,the listing makes it crystal clear.
It's clearly lightly used rather than unused .
It far far too  much money but the pictures are good and very clearly show it's condition so I don't really see a big issue .


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## ycbm (18 December 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			It's very clear the saddle is at least eight years old ,the listing makes it crystal clear.
It's clearly lightly used rather than unused .
It far far too  much money but the pictures are good and very clearly show it's condition so I don't really see a big issue .
		
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Seller notes have been changed this morning since I last posted.. Good result


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## Leo Walker (18 December 2015)

As someone who just bought a second hand saddle fro ebay for a 1/5th of what thats advertised for, I read the ad, looked at the pictures, then called the manufacturer to confirm using the serial number. I think most people who are interested in buying a saddle, apart from the few that take a gamble on a very cheap potential bargain, make the proper checks.

I cant imagine that anyone buying one of these saddles doesnt do the same. People who buy WOWs either have one already or have a list of the specific parts that they need from their fitter dont they? Plus who spends that amount of money on a whim without checking it out first?


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## Annagain (18 December 2015)

I see the seller's notes have been updated this morning, which is good. Not sure if the actual description has changed too, but I take it to mean that if you were to buy a similar saddle brand new now it would cost you £2,600, not that this particular saddle cost them that price. I agree it's not the clearest description though.


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## fatpiggy (18 December 2015)

FrankieCob said:



			As someone who just bought a second hand saddle fro ebay for a 1/5th of what thats advertised for, I read the ad, looked at the pictures, then called the manufacturer to confirm using the serial number. I think most people who are interested in buying a saddle, apart from the few that take a gamble on a very cheap potential bargain, make the proper checks.

I cant imagine that anyone buying one of these saddles doesnt do the same. People who buy WOWs either have one already or have a list of the specific parts that they need from their fitter dont they? Plus who spends that amount of money on a whim without checking it out first?
		
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Your final paragraph - made me laugh!  You wouldn't believe how many people do exactly that then go whining to anyone who will listen to them including the press and TV. All they do is highlight their own stupidity.  There was one a couple of days ago - woman bought two TVs from a white van driver and found the boxes were empty when she got them home.  Remember the adage "a fool and his money are soon parted".


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## Luci07 (18 December 2015)

Well, I think the original ad was misleading because I would have thought the saddle was almost new!


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## Leo Walker (18 December 2015)

fatpiggy said:



			Your final paragraph - made me laugh!  You wouldn't believe how many people do exactly that then go whining to anyone who will listen to them including the press and TV. All they do is highlight their own stupidity.  There was one a couple of days ago - woman bought two TVs from a white van driver and found the boxes were empty when she got them home.  Remember the adage "a fool and his money are soon parted".
		
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I'm half heartedly selling the two saddles I have that dont fit, and everyone so far has asked sensible questions and anyone seriously interested has asked for the serial number. For the record though, despite GFS stamping their saddles with a serial number, they dont keep records! So I have had to get them to confirm in writing that it is what I say it is, otherwise people are too wary that its not as described


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## LouiseHa58 (21 December 2015)

FIRSTLY, I AM THE OWNER OF THE LOVELY WOW SADDLE.  Normally I do not get involved with people such as "ycbm" but madam you have gone one step too far.  I have seen the advert that my husband put on his EBay account and there was absolutely no ambiguity.  It was described on EBay as New (Other - Bought brand-new for my wife and never used as she was diagnosed with arthritis just afterwards following a fall. Has only ever been on the horse for a fitting and one outing.)  

Interested parties were told straight away that it was bought for me just before my diagnosis of a life changing degenerative disease, Early Onset Osteo Arthritis which we believe could have been caused by a fall.  As you come across as a busy body you can hear the back story.  After having 5 trapped nerves removed and a back injury I was inching my way back to health, I was bought a cross trainer and a treadmill costing far in excess of the price of this saddle, I was also bought a beautifully bred calm Irish Cob as my Hanoverian sports horse was too much of a man for me after this kind of an injury.  I  had a beautiful day having this WOW saddle custom built for me and the mare by our trusted, reputable saddler.  Indeed on the same day my husband also bought two saddles from her as well as all the tack for the Irish mare.  I like every other horse woman was full of plans and expectations, but I knew I had to work to become fit enough to carry these plans out.  Within a matter of days I came off the treadmill, my knee was swollen and I put it down to the previous fall.  I rested for 6 weeks and at last gave in to seeing a specialist and having it x-rayed. I was devastated to find the diagnosis was early onset arthritis.  Without further ado I was told that I was too young for a knee replacement and as a degenerative disease, with no cure, all I had to look forward to was pain management (which is not possible I assure you).  How dare you suggest that I have been riding with that saddle when I am finding it difficult to even walk up the stairs.  I am a registered Blue Badge holder, going from a healthy fit country person who has been surrounded by horses and animals all my life to working out how far I can walk in the supermarket before having to turn around as I may not make it back!  My darling husband has left no stone unturned and I have seen specialists from one end of the country to the other including Beckham's orthopaedic surgeon to Professor Shetty, the top stem cell consultant in the country.  As one of the thoughtful contributors to this forum suggested to you, that it was perfectly reasonable to think that someone with an illness would hold onto a saddle in the hope of getting better!  Let me thank her/him right now.  She was half right.  I am a fighter and since this devastating diagnosis, I have not given up hope even though I am increasingly immobile.  Great strides are being made in stem cell research and I intend to know of every single advancement.  You have caused me in your unfounded vociferous rant, great mental anguish and deep distress, having to re-live some of the darkest moments that other people have been known to take their own life for in the fear of the future and what it may bring to them.  

I do not intend to let you get away with this.  I have been entertaining this weekend and one of my dear friends husband is a QC, she has looked at your defamatory and unfounded accusations and she is not only adamant that it is libel, she feels it is written I.I.E.D. as well as trying to prejudice a sale which leads me to your assertion that it is over priced.  This saddle has NEVER BEEN USED, it has never been cleaned or saddle soaped as it has never gotten dirty as once again it has NEVER BEEN USED.  You are quite at liberty to think what you will about the price just as I am at liberty to price it at what it is worth to me.  It is the most reluctant of sales and looking at it once again I really don't wish to part with it although I would have no expectation of using it again in the future even if I do recover to the point of riding again.  It is my last link with my old life.  

How dare you suggest there is anything misleading or either myself or my husband would sell to someone who obviously didn't know what they were doing.  You madam have gone beyond the pale.  You further suggested that there are creases in the twist.  I have looked over those pictures which my husband took at close quarters in high resolution and with flash, even to the point of showing the dust on the saddle horse.  There are no creases.  There is only the difference in the leather tension from a highly sculptured seat.  You are making a fool of yourself and to top it all you have neither seen the saddle nor asked for further pictures nor contacted us on the mobile number provided and you are AT THE MOMENT hiding behind the anonymity of this forum.  To add wild insult to unsubstantiated injury, you sound like a wild football thug with your smug assertion "RESULT".  

Now the point is you asked my husband this question on EBay "I'm confused about your description for this saddle. From the stirrup bar covers (short, no stitch line) it has the heavy resin seat which has not been made by WOW for about eight years now. Can you please confirm how old it is? Thanks."

He replied, "Yes my wife bought it quite a few years ago and quite literally was diagnosed unable to ride again following a knee injury directly afterwards she fell off a different horse not this one and bought this saddle and horse for when she recovered but sadly she never did. She's kept the saddle ever since because she simply couldn't bear to part with it and admit she wouldn't be writing again hope this helps".

My husband immediately added to the description on EBay under the description NEW (Other) as follows, "Bought brand-new for my wife approx 8 years ago and never used as she was diagnosed with arthritis just afterwards following a fall. Has only ever been on the horse for a fitting and one outing. I.e. adding the words, "APPROX 8 YEARS AGO"  to the description to ensure that there could be no ambiguity.  As you will see from his EBay feedback he has a 100% reputation of which he is rightly proud and which was also pointed out to you by another contributor to this forum.  You then subsequently start this unreasonable thread despite the EBay advert already having been updated by husband immediately he had answered your EBay question of his own volition although no one else seems to have misunderstood.  

Surely a sane well mannered person would have approached the perceived problem thus, "I have seen your advert and I hope you don't mind if I make a suggestion that it may not be immediately obvious to some that the brand new does not mean that it was brand new this year, I think it might be better if you amend your advert to avoid ambiguity".  My husband as a decent gentleman and would have thanked you and made the suggested amendment immediately.  Had you the merest of actual interest, you would have checked back on EBay and seen for yourself that he had already amended the advert BEFORE YOU STARTED YOU PROVOCATIVE THREAD.  Indeed it seems this is your only intent.  To conclude you have tried to provoke, this beautiful unused saddle is in excellent condition.  It was fitted especially for my horse and anyone who were to have it could only find it an extremely beautiful piece of equipment and an asset to their tack room.  On top of all that I do not care if it sells or not as I only allowed the offer of sale as my husband was selling some of his saddles and at his suggestion.

Out of this has at least brought some merriment to my friends over the weekend, one who is a criminal psychologist who thought your unfounded assertions were almost pathological and seemed to her that you have a deep sense of insecurity with an even greater need to seek attention.  Whereas my friend with her QC husband took it into her own hands to print it off for him to look at when they return from holiday in the New Year.  While everybody went about the house seeing creases in cushions and asking when the sofa was bought etc. and making endless jokes.  

I on the other hand am taking this seriously, I have been though too much in the past few years to stand by and see my darling husband who has gone though so much for me be portrayed in such a light by somebody over an innocent advert for what is in anybody's standards a beautiful saddle.  It is hideous and ridiculous in equal measure.  But thank you to the other contributors to this forum for their sensible measured comments.  May I wish them a Merry Christmas a Happy New Year and joyful riding.  I only wish I could join you. 

And to you madam, you can be assured because of your added provocation I will not be leaving it here.


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## Regandal (22 December 2015)

Gosh.  That went down well. Not.


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## Firefly9410 (22 December 2015)

I have never understood why people take eBay quite so seriously.


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## sarahw123 (22 December 2015)

LouiseHa58, maybe a little OTT regarding potential legal ramifications, however I totally understand how insanely irritating busybody keyboard warriors get...on here especially. The majority of posters aren't taking the OP's grumble too seriously anyway so I hope it hasn't caused too much in the way of stress. 
Anyone interested could quite easily contact you re: the saddle via eBay or mobile, ask questions/request more photos etc so I'd forget the whingers


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## sasquatch (22 December 2015)

talk about a complete overreaction.

I'm starting to think the saddle seller doesn't have much experience of buying/selling saddles on eBay. I wonder if pointing them in the direction of some of the horror story saddle selling threads (does anyone remember the one about the person who sold a saddle, needed to pay a refund as it wasn't as described but had spent the money on another saddle so couldn't and also had no oven or fridge or something?) would help them see why people are very suspicious about adverts especially if they think the saddle doesn't look right.

Imo, neither party have gone about this well. I don't see what's defamatory about saying the saddle is not brand new if it's not brand new. an 8 year old saddle, no matter the condition, is not brand new to me. It can be unused - like brand new, or unused - still in original packaging, or used - like new etc. but if it is 8 years old then sorry, it's not brand new. and if it has been ridden in and put on a horse even once, it is used I'm afraid. 
On top of that, the OP did go a bit far to say she felt that the seller was ripping someone off. However, this all would have been solved if the seller had clarified the saddle was infact, 8 years old, and not described as brand new in the original description. Again, this seems like a misunderstanding on 2 parts. And not something worth legal action over as most people would come to that conclusion I think.

I can also understand stupid eBay questions, I got them when selling a Barnsby saddle but I was honest. Stated it was used, had marks, rips, sunfading etc and never had any problem from the buyer as there was no more information I could include. When you have items like this, thats' the information you need to sell successfully, so no one has any questions like this that allows them to jump to conclusions.


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## popsdosh (22 December 2015)

I am sorry it has got stupid but ultimately brought about by the OP getting carried away with what several people tried to point out was not their problem,they obviously had no intention of buying it but seemed to go out of their way to rubbish the advert which to my mind is wrong ! indeed it was merely inexperienced sellers on Ebay who innocently could have worded the advert better. However anybody prepared to spend that amount of money on a saddle I am sure would have the knowledge to know what they were buying.
I am afraid OP your initial rantings really gave the impression that you were trying to rubbish the article and a sale which ultimately can lead to legal redress as you cannot hide behind a username on here. I know what I would do if I was you to try and take the heat out of the situation and do it on here as unpalatable as that may be.Next time think twice of all the possibilities not everybody are so at home using ebay etc to sell things and I am sure ebay was not the first port of call to sell the saddle. As you know now the horse world is a small world and people get to know and fight back, So maybe important lesson learnt.


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## popsdosh (22 December 2015)

sarahw123 said:



			LouiseHa58, maybe a little OTT regarding potential legal ramifications, however I totally understand how insanely irritating busybody keyboard warriors get...on here especially. The majority of posters aren't taking the OP's grumble too seriously anyway so I hope it hasn't caused too much in the way of stress. 
Anyone interested could quite easily contact you re: the saddle via eBay or mobile, ask questions/request more photos etc so I'd forget the whingers 

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I think most on this thread who have commented would totally agree with this.

Good luck selling the saddle but as you have found out to your cost Ebay can be a nightmare !!!!!!!


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## ycbm (22 December 2015)

I never received a reply to my query.

If your husband did a reply in his email rather than using ebay message centre, this is not uncommon, but my message centre shows no reply. (Later correction, it is now in my in box)

I'm sorry you were upset, and I'm even sorrier about your health problems.   Good luck with selling your saddle and with your future health.


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## LouiseHa58 (22 December 2015)

Good morning Sasquatch 

You have made some valid points but from a position of not knowing the back story of ycbm.  These are my husbands words:-

1. I use EBay regularly both buying and selling and have a 100% reputation as ycbm could see.
2. After 50 years of riding I have a tack room full of saddles but have neither sold nor bought one on EBay.
3. I find 99% of people on EBay 100% if asked correct questions and when I buy if it is an expensive item I have always rung the vendor and judged the item by asking all the questions necessary.
4. I described the item as NEW (Other - with a full description that it had only been on the horse for a fitting and one outing) which was over describing its use as the outing was simply the day of the fitting and just around our ménage for the purpose of building the saddle to fit the horse.  
5. I was contacted through EBay with a question asking the age of the saddle from "ycbm" @ 15:58 on 17th December.
6. I replied to "ycbm" @ 1603 on 17th December just minutes after her asking the question confirming that it was bought years ago. 
7. I amended the description on my own volition to avoid doubt adding that the saddle had been bought "approx. 8 years ago".
8. If "ycbm" felt the description was misleading why did she not return via EBay questions and suggest an amendment?
9. The fact that "ycbm" did not ask or suggest to me that the advert could mislead via the proper channel, the EBay questions, which she had already used suggests that she must had had an ulterior motive.
10. The fact she did not start the H & H thread until 16:52 on 17th December nearly an hour after I had answered her and giving her plenty of time to have asked further questions, confirms my view of her intentions above.

The irony of this is, my husband decided to rationalise his tack and tentatively asked me would I sell the saddle as it was not going to be used again and I said after persuasion OK but don't let me know about it.  I have had three very good offers and one just below but after reading your contribution feel you are probably right, I shall just give it to my saddler as she already had somebody who wanted it but at 18 inches it was just too long for her horse.

.... This is what happens when people like "ycbm" use words like "fraudulent" and "deliberately misleading" to a room full of lawyers and a criminal psychologist thrown in. (Headache) Thank you anyway and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.


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## LouiseHa58 (22 December 2015)

Good morning Sasquatch 

You have made some valid points but from a position of not knowing the back story of ycbm.  These are my husbands words:-

1. I use EBay regularly both buying and selling and have a 100% reputation as ycbm could see.
2. After 50 years of riding I have a tack room full of saddles but have neither sold nor bought one on EBay.
3. I find 99% of people on EBay 100% if asked correct questions and when I buy if it is an expensive item I have always rung the vendor and judged the item by asking all the questions necessary.
4. I described the item as NEW (Other - with a full description that it had only been on the horse for a fitting and one outing) which was over describing its use as the outing was simply the day of the fitting and just around our ménage for the purpose of building the saddle to fit the horse.  
5. I was contacted through EBay with a question asking the age of the saddle from "ycbm" @ 15:58 on 17th December.
6. I replied to "ycbm" @ 1603 on 17th December just minutes after her asking the question confirming that it was bought years ago. 
7. I amended the description on my own volition to avoid doubt adding that the saddle had been bought "approx. 8 years ago".
8. If "ycbm" felt the description was misleading why did she not return via EBay questions and suggest an amendment?
9. The fact that "ycbm" did not ask or suggest to me that the advert could mislead via the proper channel, the EBay questions, which she had already used suggests that she must had had an ulterior motive.
10. The fact she did not start the H & H thread until 16:52 on 17th December nearly an hour after I had answered her and giving her plenty of time to have asked further questions, confirms my view of her intentions above.

The irony of this is, my husband decided to rationalise his tack and tentatively asked me would I sell the saddle as it was not going to be used again and I said after persuasion OK but don't let me know about it.  I have had three very good offers and one just below but after reading your contribution feel you are probably right, I shall just give it to my saddler as she already had somebody who wanted it but at 18 inches it was just too long for her horse.

.... This is what happens when people like "ycbm" use words like "fraudulent" and "deliberately misleading" to a room full of lawyers and a criminal psychologist thrown in. (Headache) Thank you anyway and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.


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## LouiseHa58 (22 December 2015)

Good morning "ycbm" I have just read your words, "I'm sorry you were upset, and I'm even sorrier about your health problems", but it has to be said I am only upset because of the words you have used.  May I suggest in future, before you go to a form and use words such as "Fraudulent" and "Deliberately misleading" that you strike up a conversation with someone on any of the available contact modes.  Even more importantly the tone of the points of which you wanted make to everyone else and for some reason not to my husband, the vendor were simply unacceptable.  You have indeed for absolutely no reason at all put me through immense distress but I have had some lovely contacts on this forum which has restored my faith in human nature including a delightful person giving me advice on pain management.  It is a great shame you cannot be more like her.

Any suggestions you had about the WOW saddle would have been graciously received had you approached the situation in a more measured manner and directly as opposed to involving the whole of this forum and even now WOW on Google search!  Perhaps you should think about deleting these comments.  Louise.


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## ester (22 December 2015)

Christ I don't think we really needed the full lowdown on someone's health issues just because of a saddle for sale. 

there were clear inaccuracies in the posting (including price paid) and even now given the tree difference etc compared to current saddles I don't think you can say that it would cost £2600 today. I suspect that none of the inaccuracies were to to deliberately mislead but that doesn't stop them being there and I am not sure why ycmb should be expected to head into potentially lengthy discussions over ebay with someone they don't know and whom she has no juristiction over in order for them to be corrected.


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## milliepops (22 December 2015)

ester said:



			Christ I don't think we really needed the full lowdown on someone's health issues just because of a saddle for sale.
		
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Glad you said that, my head was in a spin. I for one was quite interested in the OP (though it's a strange topic to start a post on), as someone who was, until recently, in the market for another Wow. I ended up buying one I could go and look at, as I have previously been stung by exactly the problem that the OP was trying to warn people about with the non-interchangable old style of panels.

Whatever the method,  I'm glad there are helpful people  about - many of us Wow owners will happily buy a saddle that is 2/3 of what we need, knowing the remaining element can be changed.Not easy at all to swap parts if they are actually not all of the same design.

Sorry to the seller that it has caused them such a headache, but it is a warning to all parties really, about buying and selling from a distance.


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## LouiseHa58 (22 December 2015)

The irony of this is, my husband decided to rationalise his tack and tentatively asked me would I sell the saddle as it was not going to be used again and I said after persuasion OK but don't let me know about it. I have had three very good offers and one just below but after reading your contribution feel you are probably right, I shall just give it to my saddler as she already had somebody who wanted it but at 18 inches it was just too long for her horse.

 .... This is what happens when people like "ycbm" use words like "fraudulent" and "deliberately misleading" to a room full of lawyers and a criminal psychologist thrown in. (Headache) Thank you anyway and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. 
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...ay-not-as-described/page4#5dvmTxyMoV30fJV3.99


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## LouiseHa58 (22 December 2015)

The irony of this is, my husband decided to rationalise his tack and tentatively asked me would I sell the saddle as it was not going to be used again and I said after persuasion OK but don't let me know about it. I have had three very good offers and one just below but after reading your contribution feel you are probably right, I shall just give it to my saddler as she already had somebody who wanted it but at 18 inches it was just too long for her horse.

 .... This is what happens when people like "ycbm" use words like "fraudulent" and "deliberately misleading" to a room full of lawyers and a criminal psychologist thrown in. (Headache) Thank you anyway and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. 
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...ay-not-as-described/page4#5dvmTxyMoV30fJV3.99


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## conniegirl (22 December 2015)

sasquatch said:



			Imo, neither party have gone about this well. I don't see what's defamatory about saying the saddle is not brand new if it's not brand new. an 8 year old saddle, no matter the condition, is not brand new to me. It can be unused - like brand new, or unused - still in original packaging, or used - like new etc. but if it is 8 years old then sorry, it's not brand new. and if it has been ridden in and put on a horse even once, it is used I'm afraid.
		
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So where do you draw the line? by your reasoning no clothing bought in shops is brand new as it has all been tried on at least once (probably by you before you purchase it!), by your reasoning thousands of ebay listings are wrong as that top/shoes/toaster that has been sitting in the cupboard for a couple of years still in its pack with its original labels cant be advertised as new with labels, or heck that saddle the saddler bought from the manufacturer and has been sitting in his show room for 3 or 4 years as no one wanted it cant be sold as brand new as it was manufactured several years ago!

Grow up, it has nothing to do with you and if the OP was actualy that bothered it is easy enough to report listings to Ebay!


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2015)

ester said:



			Christ I don't think we really needed the full lowdown on someone's health issues just because of a saddle for sale. 

there were clear inaccuracies in the posting (including price paid) and even now given the tree difference etc compared to current saddles I don't think you can say that it would cost £2600 today. I suspect that none of the inaccuracies were to to deliberately mislead but that doesn't stop them being there and I am not sure why ycmb should be expected to head into potentially lengthy discussions over ebay with someone they don't know and whom she has no juristiction over in order for them to be corrected.
		
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With bells on.  *yawn*


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## LouiseHa58 (22 December 2015)

Right, I am only on this thread because of "ycbm", the health history was specifically for "ycbm".  I have been advised that I cannot let such defamatory accusations brought into a public forum and even on a Google search go unanswered.  How difficult could it have been for her to have asked further questions or make suggestions directly?  She issued a warning which is far beyond an opinion and her words have many more ramifications.  I should know I have been lectured about them all weekend.  My husband took advice from a reputably saddler on pricing.  If people are unhappy about the pricing please blame her.  I will not disappoint if someone wishes to buy it at the price it is but quite frankly I'm as happy as I was before, running my hand across the saddle and saying in my head, "One day I will ride again and I will beat this", and as for EBay I have never been near it before, I tend to spend money as opposed to recoup it.  My husband on the other hand is far more rational.  Now I think everyone should stop worrying about it, stop concerning yourselves with it and many thanks for all the positive replies I've had from lovely people.  Louise.


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## EQUIDAE (22 December 2015)

In legal terms the saddle is (Nearly) unused but at 8 years old it is certainly not new - yet the seller still seems to insist it is. Items depreciate with age, as well as use, especially with the advent of the new technologies found in saddles. It is highly misleading to claim that it would cost £2600 new - it simply wouldn't as the saddle is outdated and cannot be compared to a modern equivalent.

To the seller - your legal friends will tell you that it is never a good idea to sue on a matter of principle. Plus you cannot sue for defamation if what is said is true. At the end of the day you are still claiming an 8yo saddle is new - it isn't. You are also claiming it would cost £2600 to replace on the retail price - it wouldn't. It is easy to get an idea of market value with a little search - old style WOW saddles resell for between £850 and £1200 depending on condition. A used new style seems to resale seems to resell for £1300-£1500.

Sorry to hear about your troubles with your health. I hope you can get past this, place a more realistic ad, and have a lovely Christmas.


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## sasquatch (22 December 2015)

LouiseHa58 said:



			.... This is what happens when people like "ycbm" use words like "fraudulent" and "deliberately misleading" to a room full of lawyers and a criminal psychologist thrown in. (Headache) Thank you anyway and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
		
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This is also what happens with selling online, and selling a high value item on a site like ebay where there are horror stories regarding people spending thousands, and receiving a not as described saddle and not being able to get their money back or vice versa. 

I have sold a saddle through ebay, however it was £100 and the price matched the condition that I was very open about and said I wasn't aware of the age but knew it had been with my horse for at least 5 years and invited people to ask for more photos.
Now, if I was selling my Albion, I wouldn't do it through ebay as it is a high value saddle and I wouldn't want to risk anything going wrong. 
No one has said you and your husband aren't educated horse people, and obviously you are not. However, having not sold a saddle before I can understand why you may not have realised to add some things in to the description. I did a lot of research and asked questions on this forum before I sold mine regarding selling a saddle, what I could do to safegaurd myself incase the buyer said it wasn't as described or damaged, what I needed to put into the description etc and it was definitely much more than when I sell a pair of shoes or an item without as much value (and this was only a £100 saddle!) 

I don't see why a criminal psychologist would want to get involved in this, and do think you have overreacted by saying you are involving lawyers. Imo, you were deserved an apology from ycmb who had genuine questions, but also jumped to conclusions. By threatening the use of lawyers for something that is clearly a misunderstanding I feel you have lost any moral high ground you may have had.
Unfortunately, for saddles, especially popular, big name, expensive saddles, there often are fraudulent sellers. When you post anything on the internet, you open it up to criticism and people are allowed to question if the advert is legitimate or not. On top of that, I'm not sure you can try and prosecute someone on just your views of ycbm's intentions, especially when ycmb will be able to argue your view is not correct. Now I am not a lawyer, but have a reasonable understanding of civil cases, and something like this will quite probably end up as a 'he said-she said' type thing and normally they go absolutely nowhere. 

It's also good to remember that not all messages send/get through as quickly or as easily as you think. I have only just had a message from a seller on ebay regarding a pair of shoes I sold 3 months ago come through. It happens, and could have been a simple thing of ycbm not receiving a notification of the message until much later, or a problem with messages being sent/received. I am in no means defending ycbm, however think that there is a big misunderstanding and on both parts a private message explaining what you have posted here, in maybe slightly different wording, would have been a much better way to resolve this instead of putting it on a forum. And I do think ycbm should have corresponded with you before making a forum post on assumptions and suspicions. 

I'm glad you have found an alternative (and safer!) way to sell your saddle, and hope you can get some relief for your arthritis and will be able to begin riding again. I am under investigation for a knee injury that occurred last year, which could be anything from a torn ACL to arthritis so can understand being in a lot of pain, and how restricting and upsetting it is. 

I think this has been a lesson to both seller and OP, I hadn't commented on this thread before now as I thought OP was just overreacting and their query was then answered re. age of the saddle and believed it would be dropped after that. If anything, think of it as a positive that your saddle has had more views and people have examined it to be able to come to their own conclusions and the majority are not in agreement with the OP.

I'd like to thank you for addressing all the questions people on this thread have had regarding your saddle, and hope that you're able to sell it now hassle free and make a good return on it. Hoping you have a good Christmas, and New Year as well, thank you.


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## FlashyP (22 December 2015)

Looking at the description it is obvious the seller isn't that knowledgeable about the Wow system, i.e. no details about seat size, type of panels, head plate, etc., all things someone wanting one of these saddles would want to know, and the ad says it'll fit around a horse around 15.2-16hh, size of horse is irrelevant for most saddles I'd have thought! However, I do think it was misleading not to say it is 8 years old on the advert initially. The seller waited to be promoted by the OP to do this. the owners health problems, however awful, are irrelevant. I've been looking at Wow's a lot recently. I've been buying and selling a few to get the right parts I need. I've bought 2006/2007 models with the resin seats for £450-£570, 2011/2012 models I've bought for £700-£800. They've all been in decent condition, not unused, but good condition. I definitely wouldn't pay more than £600 for a model of this age with a resin seat, no matter how good its condition was.


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## Llanali (22 December 2015)

I'm incredulous that a criminal.psychologist can diagnose a "pathological" mental need from one forum post and one eBay question.  With instantaneous distance diagnostic abilities like that I bet they are in huge demand.


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2015)

Llanali said:



			I'm incredulous that a criminal.psychologist can diagnose a "pathological" mental need from one forum post and one eBay question.  With instantaneous distance diagnostic abilities like that I bet they are in huge demand.
		
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I read that post out to my house guests and hilarity ensued


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## Llanali (22 December 2015)

Glad to be of service JFTD. 
It was the stand out point of the whole thread for me.


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2015)

Llanali said:



			Glad to be of service JFTD. 
It was the stand out point of the whole thread for me.
		
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Just for clarity, I meant the saddle owner's post was read out for humorous purposes - with reference to the bit you're referring to.  Not your post, which I don't see any cause to mock, although I did chuckle at your comment.


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## sasquatch (22 December 2015)

conniegirl said:



			So where do you draw the line? by your reasoning no clothing bought in shops is brand new as it has all been tried on at least once (probably by you before you purchase it!), by your reasoning thousands of ebay listings are wrong as that top/shoes/toaster that has been sitting in the cupboard for a couple of years still in its pack with its original labels cant be advertised as new with labels, or heck that saddle the saddler bought from the manufacturer and has been sitting in his show room for 3 or 4 years as no one wanted it cant be sold as brand new as it was manufactured several years ago!

Grow up, it has nothing to do with you and if the OP was actualy that bothered it is easy enough to report listings to Ebay!
		
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Well if it is 3/4 years old it isn't brand new, it's been sat on a shelf for 3/4 years. So it could be advertised as new - unopened/original packaging and that is why sellers notes are there. 

Clothes in a shop that have been tried on once in a changing room, taken off and given back to the changing room attendant or clothes that have been bought online, tried on, and sent back when they don't fit with the labels attached and no damage, imo a bit different to a saddle that has been purchased, tried on, fitted to the horse, and used once. Much like if I bought a dress from a shop, took it home, wore it to one fancy do for 2/3 hours, then sold it on. The dress has been used, yes it was used once, and is probably like new, but I can't say it's brand new because it's been worn even if it was only for 2/3 hours to watch someone collect an award. Most places don't let you bring shoes back if they've been worn outside and there's no obvious fault with them, even if they were only worn for 5 minutes to go and put the bins out. That's why there's various options under the 'new' category on ebay, and the chance for sellers to include more details.

I didn't say something unopened couldn't be sold as new, just that it couldn't be sold as brand new. If it's been sat on a shelf in a box for a few years, it hasn't been used but you can't advertise it as being brand new, which I take to mean as being the newest version of the product. For example, I would not sell an unopened iphone 5 that had been sitting around in the box for 2 years as brand new, even though it had never been opened. The serial number would confirm the product was manufactured 2 years ago (and the process may have changed in that time to improve/update parts used in the product) and not be the same as the product being sold under the same brand/make/model as one that was manufactured within the past year.

I'm simply giving my opinion on a situation. This is a public forum, we are allowed to do that. And I've said I feel this could have been dealt better by both parties, in private, instead of it all airing on a public forum where anyone can read or comment.


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## Llanali (22 December 2015)

Oh whoops! Too much whizzing around! 

Its all so dramatic, I can hardly cope with it.


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2015)

Llanali said:



			Oh whoops! Too much whizzing around! 

Its all so dramatic, I can hardly cope with it.
		
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Can anyone else see this thread in black and white silent melodrama?  It's comedic brilliance.


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## conniegirl (22 December 2015)

sasquatch said:



			Well if it is 3/4 years old it isn't brand new, it's been sat on a shelf for 3/4 years. So it could be advertised as new - unopened/original packaging and that is why sellers notes are there. 

Clothes in a shop that have been tried on once in a changing room, taken off and given back to the changing room attendant or clothes that have been bought online, tried on, and sent back when they don't fit with the labels attached and no damage, imo a bit different to a saddle that has been purchased, tried on, fitted to the horse, and used once. Much like if I bought a dress from a shop, took it home, wore it to one fancy do for 2/3 hours, then sold it on. The dress has been used, yes it was used once, and is probably like new, but I can't say it's brand new because it's been worn even if it was only for 2/3 hours to watch someone collect an award. Most places don't let you bring shoes back if they've been worn outside and there's no obvious fault with them, even if they were only worn for 5 minutes to go and put the bins out. That's why there's various options under the 'new' category on ebay, and the chance for sellers to include more details.

I didn't say something unopened couldn't be sold as new, just that it couldn't be sold as brand new. If it's been sat on a shelf in a box for a few years, it hasn't been used but you can't advertise it as being brand new, which I take to mean as being the newest version of the product. For example, I would not sell an unopened iphone 5 that had been sitting around in the box for 2 years as brand new, even though it had never been opened. The serial number would confirm the product was manufactured 2 years ago (and the process may have changed in that time to improve/update parts used in the product) and not be the same as the product being sold under the same brand/make/model as one that was manufactured within the past year.
		
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That is your view, it is not the majority view and it is not the view of ebay either, you will find plenty of brand new unopened Iphone 5's out there, heck you can even buy them from high street shops!
The saddle has been tried on and fitted, not used, which is exactly the same as trying a dress on and maybe doing up the integral belt a bit tighter than it was on the hanger.


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## ester (22 December 2015)

I think we are trying to draw similarities where there are none. iphones are boxed, saddles are not adjusted in the same way as belts... 

I also thought the lack of the actual specifics on seat size/headplate etc etc for a wow was odd.


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## FlashyP (22 December 2015)

Would a good analogy to this situation be like selling a 'new, never used' iPhone 1 as 'would cost new today ~ £500' i.e. that is the cost of the current iPhone model (iPhone 6).....or have I had too much mulled wine


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## ester (22 December 2015)

yup I can go with that!


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## popsdosh (22 December 2015)

why are we getting so het up over the different terms for new ! OK it could have been worded differently but last time I checked trading law 'brand new' has no legal definition or relevance.


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## popsdosh (22 December 2015)

FlashyP said:



			Looking at the description it is obvious the seller isn't that knowledgeable about the Wow system, i.e. no details about seat size, type of panels, head plate, etc., all things someone wanting one of these saddles would want to know, and the ad says it'll fit around a horse around 15.2-16hh, size of horse is irrelevant for most saddles I'd have thought! However, I do think it was misleading not to say it is 8 years old on the advert initially. The seller waited to be promoted by the OP to do this. the owners health problems, however awful, are irrelevant. I've been looking at Wow's a lot recently. I've been buying and selling a few to get the right parts I need. I've bought 2006/2007 models with the resin seats for £450-£570, 2011/2012 models I've bought for £700-£800. They've all been in decent condition, not unused, but good condition. I definitely wouldn't pay more than £600 for a model of this age with a resin seat, no matter how good its condition was.
		
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Just as the sellers health issues are irrelevant so are your musings on the price ! Like every thing on ebay its buyer beware and a contract is between a willing seller and buyer so what does it matter what you think its worth. If they want to much clearly it wont sell.


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## FlashyP (22 December 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Just as the sellers health issues are irrelevant so are your musings on the price ! Like every thing on ebay its buyer beware and a contract is between a willing seller and buyer so what does it matter what you think its worth. If they want to much clearly it wont sell.
		
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Hmmm, well the thread is about an overpriced, ambiguously/inaccurately described saddle, so price it is somewhat relevant, obviously my opinions are just that, opinions, and are on a public forum and open to criticism by anyone, so critisicm is fair enough  But I'm still not sure how a person's health could ever be relevant in selling a saddle/car/house etc etc other than as in a passing comment for the reason for sale.
As the saddle was originally described as 'brand new' with no mention of the age, a reasonable person wouldn't therefore assume it could be 8 years old, so they may have been a 'willing buyer' for a new saddle (which I think most people would take as being recently made, probably within the last few months or so) as it was described, but they wouldn't have been getting that, so I guess if I had been the buyer then I would have been a bit miffed, but I totally agree with you it's definitely a buyer beware situation!


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## shadowboy (22 December 2015)

This is the funniest, non funny thread I've read on here in years!


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## YorksG (22 December 2015)

Llanali said:



			I'm incredulous that a criminal.psychologist can diagnose a "pathological" mental need from one forum post and one eBay question.  With instantaneous distance diagnostic abilities like that I bet they are in huge demand.
		
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And if they are in clinical practice acting against their own code of practice ooops!


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## Bojingles (22 December 2015)

What a nasty, mean-spirited thread.


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## MotherOfChickens (22 December 2015)

Bojingles said:



			What a nasty, mean-spirited thread.
		
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indeed. often gets like this just before xmas though, then its all group hugs etc. This whole thread has been something about nothing with some needless cr@p thrown in.


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## RaposadeGengibre (22 December 2015)

Bojingles said:



			What a nasty, mean-spirited thread.
		
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Indeed...


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## LouiseHa58 (22 December 2015)

Thank you for all the contributions to this, as stated previously the OP was informed within minutes of her EBay question via EBay and under my husbands own initiative he amended the listing to clarify. An hour after the OP was given a clear and concise answer the Op goes to a public forum to deny having had any communication from my husband although not attempting any further communication either on EBay, email or the mobile phone number provided on EBay. The OP has taken it upon themselves to use extraordinary terminology which has led to a great deal of distress and anguish. The health issue was in reply to the OP, my advice to all is to follow the normal procedure and to ask questions and give advice where one feels the need to in a reasonable and polite manner and to always ascertain the profession before making defamatory remarks to your intended target.

I reiterate I neither needed nor wanted the sale and a look at my husbands ebay listings and report only verifies he is a person of integrity and not what the OP suggested......ad hominem.


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## Palindrome (22 December 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Like every thing on ebay its buyer beware and a contract is between a willing seller and buyer so what does it matter what you think its worth. If they want to much clearly it wont sell.
		
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No, it's not buyer beware on e-bay. The item has to be appropriately described and it's the text of the ad that matters. Even if a fault is visible in a picture it must be described in the text of the ad, and the seller should certainly not assume people will ask questions, more photos or make a phone call. The rules are really clear, if an item is not as described it can be returned.

IMO the listing was misleading in part because there was no mention that the saddle was outdated (only stated that it was new with quote of the price of a new saddle so one could assume that was indeed the value of the saddle) and also because it said that the saddle is completely adjustable when apparently it is not, but probably not fraudulent as the seller did not seem very knowledgeable about saddles (saying for example if would fit a particular range of sizes of horse).

The replies from the seller/seller's partner are however overly dramatic really but it seems that she hasn't been well advised as in those cases it always seems better to just take some distance and let it go. The distress is coming from wounding oneself up over something that is not worth it, a simple mislead/exaggerated forum thread.


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## OneTimeUser (22 December 2015)

This will be my one and only post on H&H.  I posted the advert for the WOW saddle on eBay in all good faith and have this to say to "ycbm" who initiated this unnecessary thread, which I would have known nothing about had it not been for another eBay user alerting me to its existence:-

Frankly you are in my opinion the kind of person who gives the horse world a bad name and causes the kind of jealousies we will see up and down the country in a few days time at the Boxing Day Meets.

Whether we sell the saddle or not is irrelevant, I am far more concerned at the distress you have caused my wife in having to re-live the agony of having to give up riding due to arthritis.  I am also extremely annoyed at your defamation of my character and probity on a public forum.

You asked a question as to the age of the saddle through eBay and I replied 5 minutes later.  If you felt there was any problem with the item description any normal person would have come back through eBay and suggested an amendment to the listing.  As it was clear to me that the description was not clear to you, I had already updated the listing myself, for as you would have seen had you taken the trouble, I have a 100% eBay reputation as both a buyer and a seller.      

To burst into print defaming my character on a public forum 50 minutes after you had been answered, frankly beggars belief.  I have bought hundreds of items unseen on eBay from camera's to cars and after asking questions and often ringing the vendor have not had one single problem, neither has any purchaser of anything which I have sold.  

I suggest that you employ some of your obviously considerable spare time in contacting Horse & Hound and getting your defamatory comments removed.


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## popsdosh (22 December 2015)

Palindrome said:



			No, it's not buyer beware on e-bay. The item has to be appropriately described and it's the text of the ad that matters. Even if a fault is visible in a picture it must be described in the text of the ad, and the seller should certainly not assume people will ask questions, more photos or make a phone call. The rules are really clear, if an item is not as described it can be returned.

IMO the listing was misleading in part because there was no mention that the saddle was outdated (only stated that it was new with quote of the price of a new saddle so one could assume that was indeed the value of the saddle) and also because it said that the saddle is completely adjustable when apparently it is not, but probably not fraudulent as the seller did not seem very knowledgeable about saddles (saying for example if would fit a particular range of sizes of horse).

The replies from the seller/seller's partner are however overly dramatic really but it seems that she hasn't been well advised as in those cases it always seems better to just take some distance and let it go. The distress is coming from wounding oneself up over something that is not worth it, a simple mislead/exaggerated forum thread.
		
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Get real !!!! so the OPs original rants were not over dramatic . I hope you never get put in the same situation if you advertise something. We get it all the time on here bitching comments about others adverts when the OPs have no interest in the object apart from something to ridicule it doesnt show the perpetrators in a good light or indeed those who seek to join in . Its kids playground stuff!!! This sort of activity does draw a very fine line that when crossed could lead to legal action.
Oh and on the subject of ebay you totally believe what is in the description of every article and everybody is telling the whole story( even if its an honest mistake) do you really feel the majority are that naive or maybe just you. Good luck when you try and get your money back!


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2015)

If calling someone a football hooligan isn't _ad hominem_, I don't know what is...


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## Ben2684 (22 December 2015)

Christ! After reading all this I'm never posting anything ever again!!!


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## milliepops (22 December 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Oh and on the subject of ebay you totally believe what is in the description of every article and everybody is telling the whole story( even if its an honest mistake) do you really feel the majority are that naive or maybe just you. Good luck when you try and get your money back!
		
Click to expand...

^^ I think ebay is quite clear on that - I buy and sell a lot on ebay, and feel they quite routinely side with the buyer when there's any kind of dispute. It's not unheard of - there have been enough reports on here - for a buyer to keep the item they have complained about AND get a refund, and for the seller to be left out of pocket. for me, *that's* why it pays to be ultra-transparent in your description. Could quite easily have gone that way in this case.


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## Queenbee (22 December 2015)

ester said:



			Christ I don't think we really needed the full lowdown on someone's health issues just because of a saddle for sale. 

there were clear inaccuracies in the posting (including price paid) and even now given the tree difference etc compared to current saddles I don't think you can say that it would cost £2600 today. I suspect that none of the inaccuracies were to to deliberately mislead but that doesn't stop them being there and I am not sure why ycmb should be expected to head into potentially lengthy discussions over ebay with someone they don't know and whom she has no juristiction over in order for them to be corrected.
		
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JFTD said:



			I read that post out to my house guests and hilarity ensued 

Click to expand...

I would just like to inform everyone that I had a dinner party the other day we were not discussing this thread because I had not seen it then, but at the party we had a child studying at primary school, a farmer, a groom/riding instructor, a stay at home mum, another person (not sure what he does) and a psychologist who is also a paralegal and specialises in bailiff law (ok, that was me).  I have to say OP, perhaps not your best post, and yes, it did come across a bit venomous and as if you were 'on a mission'.  However, the seller was a bit off the wall too... Im sorry (seller) that you are poorly, Im glad you have a great husband and friends... but really name dropping... so crude!


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2015)

Oh QB.  You must have looked so out of the loop not to have been discussing this thread...  Your guests must've been so disappointed


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## milliepops (22 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			Oh QB.  You must have looked so out of the loop not to have been discussing this thread...  Your guests must've been so disappointed 

Click to expand...

:biggrin3::biggrin3::biggrin3::biggrin3::biggrin3:  top marks for pulling this thread back guys!


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2015)

milliepops said:



			:biggrin3::biggrin3::biggrin3::biggrin3::biggrin3:  top marks for pulling this thread back guys!
		
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shhh we'll be accused of bullying or something in a minute


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## Queenbee (22 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			Oh QB.  You must have looked so out of the loop not to have been discussing this thread...  Your guests must've been so disappointed 

Click to expand...

I am mortified... I can hardly be considered hostess of the year when Im not up to speed on 'THE HHO TOPICS!!!!' (although we did talk SS)  



milliepops said:



			:biggrin3::biggrin3::biggrin3::biggrin3::biggrin3:  top marks for pulling this thread back guys!
		
Click to expand...

would you expect anything less?  Lol!



JFTD said:



			shhh we'll be accused of bullying or something in a minute 

Click to expand...

>>>inserts halo smiley for me<<<

>>>inserts devil smiley for you<<<


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## JFTDWS (22 December 2015)

Satanic?  Me?

Noooo.  I mean, my horse raised Mephistopheles himself and did a deal with Lucifer for his soul...  But I didn't help him at all.  Other than writing out Jehovah's name backwards and all that, what with him not having opposable thumbs to hold the chalk...

There's no dancing naked under the full moon or anything.


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## Firefly9410 (22 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			There's no dancing naked under the full moon or anything.
		
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There probably should be on this thread, it would fit in with all the other madness.


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## JFTDWS (23 December 2015)

Firefly9410 said:



			There probably should be on this thread, it would fit in with all the other madness.
		
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If P&V or Milliepops would care to join us we could be an online coven and dance naked around our laptops on the next full moon?  Best leave the webcams off.  TFC would be forced to slap our wrists if we put that on here!


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## Queenbee (23 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			If P&V or Milliepops would care to join us we could be an online coven and dance naked around our laptops on the next full moon?  Best leave the webcams off.  TFC would be forced to slap our wrists if we put that on here!
		
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lol! Count me in... and since we're forming a dark and twisty demonic, cultist, chicken head eating group... are we not missing someone?  Shills oh Shills!!  where are you!!


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## JFTDWS (23 December 2015)

How Festive.  The next full moon is Christmas Day.  Won't that be naked, daemon-raising fun!


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## Queenbee (23 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			How Festive.  The next full moon is Christmas Day.  Won't that be naked, daemon-raising fun!
		
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come down to cornwall for some midwinter solstice fun.... im sure hell mouth is opening up its still 14 degrees down here!!  warm enough for dancing naked in the standing stones, oh and if we are doing naked dancing -  dont we need a morag wafter... starzaan was about yesterday!


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## JFTDWS (23 December 2015)

Bit late for the solstice, but I'm not counting...  It's bizarrely warm here too, but if the hell mouth opens I'll crack out my inner Buffy (lols, I do a better Giles!) and we'll get staking!  Just careful of intimate splinters if we're still in the Buff, ass it were 

And yes.  Shils and Starzaan are essential.  We may have to kidnap them.


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## Queenbee (23 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			Bit late for the solstice, but I'm not counting...  It's bizarrely warm here too, but if the hell mouth opens I'll crack out my inner Buffy (lols, I do a better Giles!) and we'll get staking!  Just careful of intimate splinters if we're still in the Buff, ass it were 

And yes.  Shils and Starzaan are essential.  We may have to kidnap them.
		
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buff - ass!! Boom Boooooom!! 

I did used to love a bit of Biffy


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## JFTDWS (23 December 2015)

My ass was a genuine typo, but I left it in for humorous effect 

Who doesn't enjoy a hell mouth, a remarkably athletic teenager, her goofy mates and their werewolf / cursed vampire / preying mantis love rs.  And, of course, the delightful tweed wearing librarian...


ETA, this may be one of the most extreme thread hijackings I've ever been involved in...


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## Queenbee (23 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			My ass was a genuine typo, but I left it in for humorous effect 

Who doesn't enjoy a hell mouth, a remarkably athletic teenager, her goofy mates and their werewolf / cursed vampire / preying mantis love rs.  And, of course, the delightful tweed wearing librarian...


ETA, this may be one of the most extreme thread hijackings I've ever been involved in...
		
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hahaha!  Yes, but we are notorious for randomising threads into pure bizzarness, 

Spike... don't forget good old spike who died to save the world as we know it... dear of him


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## JFTDWS (23 December 2015)

Prancer and Vixen said:



			hahaha!  Yes, but we are notorious for randomising threads into pure bizzarness, 

Spike... don't forget good old spike who died to save the world as we know it... dear of him
		
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True.  Together we have driven this thread through satanism, naked dancing, hell mouths and dearest Spike.  It doesn't yet hold a candle to Men in Jodhs...


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## Mongoose11 (23 December 2015)

I just can not understand how the OP can be held responsible for the seller's wife having to relive the pain of not being able to ride again. Utterly bonkers. So, if YBCM had never raised the issues regarding the saddle, then the lovely wife of the lovely saddle seller would have never given her condition another thought? 

Utterly bizarre.


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## Queenbee (23 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			True.  Together we have driven this thread through satanism, naked dancing, hell mouths and dearest Spike.  It doesn't yet hold a candle to Men in Jodhs...
		
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nothing will ever ever ever top that thread!!



Mongoose11 said:



			I just can not understand how the OP can be held responsible for the seller's wife having to relive the pain of not being able to ride again. Utterly bonkers. So, if YBCM had never raised the issues regarding the saddle, then the lovely wife of the lovely saddle seller would have never given her condition another thought? 

Utterly bizarre.
		
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I think YBCM should pay for the sellers wife to have therapy to get over the trauma caused by this thread


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## JFTDWS (23 December 2015)

I think the seller's wife should sue YCBM for emotional distress and damages to the quality of her dinner party conversation...


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## Llanali (23 December 2015)

Prancer and Vixen said:



			nothing will ever ever ever top that thread!!



I think YBCM should pay for the sellers wife to have therapy to get over the trauma caused by this thread
		
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I'm sure she must have a friend qualified in counselling that could offer professional services a the next soirée?


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## Llanali (23 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			I think the seller's wife should sue YCBM for emotional distress and damages to the quality of her dinner party conversation...
		
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What about paying for the damages to that sofa cushion which may or may not be creased?


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## OldNag (23 December 2015)

I now realise that my dinner parties are woefully inadequate. I have completely omitted to invite any QCs. Criminal psychologists have not even occurred to me. 

Plus, I have never thought to discuss my ebay listings. I should hang my head in shame.


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## JFTDWS (23 December 2015)

Llanali said:



			What about paying for the damages to that sofa cushion which may or may not be creased?
		
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I presume the sofa cushion will also be suing for defamation of its straight and true character...



COldNag said:



			I now realise that my dinner parties are woefully inadequate. I have completely omitted to invite any QCs. Criminal psychologists have not even occurred to me. 

Plus, I have never thought to discuss my ebay listings. I should hang my head in shame.
		
Click to expand...

How very unimaginative of you.


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## MrsMozart (23 December 2015)

Eh?

I mean really, Eh?!

I leave HHO alone for a wee while and this is what happens.

Barking.

OP was trying to help. Seller was trying to help. QC's wife was trying to help. Crimnalogist (sp!), or was it psychologist, I forget, was trying to help, half the medical profession was trying to help... So, the net effect, in reality, and without a thought for ad naseum et al (that's the extent of my Latin, I'll have to ask D1 for more),  is that it's a thread that shows the helpfulness and Christmas spirit of all, so we can move on happy in the warm glow of the season.

The only thing contunation of this angst should be concern that my weekly chocolate bar melted on my trousers whilst I tried to remember how to spell 'naseum'. Bobber.


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## JFTDWS (23 December 2015)

MrsMozart said:



			The only thing contunation of this angst should be concern that my weekly chocolate bar melted on my trousers whilst I tried to remember how to spell 'naseum'. Bobber.
		
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The saddest thing is, it died in vain 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...LF8ZrRwDZn_JmTGow&sig2=FGfwx6xTEkq2pWuOF42Fag

(And I mean that lovingly, MrsM)


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## MrsMozart (23 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			The saddest thing is, it died in vain 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...LF8ZrRwDZn_JmTGow&sig2=FGfwx6xTEkq2pWuOF42Fag

(And I mean that lovingly, MrsM)
		
Click to expand...

This makes me very sad and I might have to go and lick it off...

But the lovingness gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling


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## JFTDWS (23 December 2015)

It is never wrong to lick a chocolate disaster.  Although it may raise a few eyebrows in public


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## MrsMozart (23 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			It is never wrong to lick a chocolate disaster.  Although it may raise a few eyebrows in public 

Click to expand...

It's the only way to go lass


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## Palindrome (23 December 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Get real !!!! so the OPs original rants were not over dramatic . I hope you never get put in the same situation if you advertise something. We get it all the time on here bitching comments about others adverts when the OPs have no interest in the object apart from something to ridicule it doesnt show the perpetrators in a good light or indeed those who seek to join in . Its kids playground stuff!!! This sort of activity does draw a very fine line that when crossed could lead to legal action.
Oh and on the subject of ebay you totally believe what is in the description of every article and everybody is telling the whole story( even if its an honest mistake) do you really feel the majority are that naive or maybe just you. Good luck when you try and get your money back!
		
Click to expand...


Chill out popdosh. Yes, the OP was a bit dramatic too, although I would say exaggerated in that they put an intent that was not there but not wrong in that the listing was not clear and straightforward, so no I don't think there is room for legal action at all (or only unsuccessful one, plus no name was given at any point so what's the fuss really? and who knows what OP is going through as well? A bit of sympathy both ways really).

I do sell and buy lots on e-bay, sometimes expensive items, and yes I have refunded people or have been refunded when the item has not been accurately described. It happens, you just put it down to experience and accept that you will be loosing the cost of postage and e-bay fee. E-bay works on an auction system that makes time an important parameter, I have sometimes decided in the last minute of the auction to buy an item worth several hundreds of pounds and it is absolutely the gist of it. Of course if the item doesn't work for me I don't return it (I just sell it on with hopefully more info about fitting and have 100% feedback too  ), but if it is because of wrong info in the listing yes I absolutely return it and have my money back.


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## ester (23 December 2015)

So are you flexible enough to lick in situ or will it require stripping MrsM?


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## madlady (23 December 2015)

Prancer and Vixen said:



			I would just like to inform everyone that I had a dinner party the other day we were not discussing this thread because I had not seen it then, but at the party we had a child studying at primary school, a farmer, a groom/riding instructor, a stay at home mum, another person (not sure what he does) and a psychologist who is also a paralegal and specialises in bailiff law (ok, that was me).  I have to say OP, perhaps not your best post, and yes, it did come across a bit venomous and as if you were 'on a mission'.  However, the seller was a bit off the wall too... Im sorry (seller) that you are poorly, Im glad you have a great husband and friends... but really name dropping... so crude!
		
Click to expand...

PMSL


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## MrsMozart (23 December 2015)

ester said:



			So are you flexible enough to lick in situ or will it require stripping MrsM?
		
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Sadly stripping will be required 

I aplogise profusely for all upset this thought may cause the gentle reader.


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## Queenbee (23 December 2015)

MrsMozart said:



			Eh?

I mean really, Eh?!

I leave HHO alone for a wee while and this is what happens.

Barking.

OP was trying to help. Seller was trying to help. QC's wife was trying to help. Crimnalogist (sp!), or was it psychologist, I forget, was trying to help, half the medical profession was trying to help... So, the net effect, in reality, and without a thought for ad naseum et al (that's the extent of my Latin, I'll have to ask D1 for more),  is that it's a thread that shows the helpfulness and Christmas spirit of all, so we can move on happy in the warm glow of the season.

The only thing contunation of this angst should be concern that my weekly chocolate bar melted on my trousers whilst I tried to remember how to spell 'naseum'. Bobber.
		
Click to expand...

Question is... Did you try to help?


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## OneTimeUser (23 December 2015)

This will be my one and only post on H&H. I posted the advert for the WOW saddle on eBay in all good faith and have this to say to "ycbm" the OP who initiated this unnecessary thread, which I would have known nothing about had it not been for another eBay user alerting me to its existence:-

Frankly you are in my opinion the kind of person who gives the horse world a bad name and causes the kind of jealousies we will see up and down the country in a few days time at the Boxing Day Meets.

Whether we sell the saddle or not is irrelevant, I am far more concerned at the distress you have caused my wife in having to re-live the agony of having to give up riding due to arthritis. I am also extremely annoyed at your defamation of my character and probity on a public forum.

You asked a question as to the age of the saddle through eBay and I replied 5 minutes later. If you felt there was any problem with the item description any normal person would have come back through eBay and suggested an amendment to the listing. As it was clear to me that the description was not clear to you, I had already updated the listing myself, for as you would have seen had you taken the trouble, I have a 100% eBay reputation as both a buyer and a seller.

To burst into print defaming my character on a public forum 50 minutes after you had been answered, frankly beggars belief. I have bought hundreds of items unseen on eBay from camera's to cars and after asking questions and often ringing the vendor have not had one single problem, neither has any purchaser of anything which I have sold.

I suggest that you employ some of your obviously considerable spare time in contacting Horse & Hound and getting your defamatory comments removed.


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## fatpiggy (23 December 2015)

Prancer and Vixen said:



			come down to cornwall for some midwinter solstice fun.... im sure hell mouth is opening up its still 14 degrees down here!!  warm enough for dancing naked in the standing stones, oh and if we are doing naked dancing -  dont we need a morag wafter... starzaan was about yesterday!
		
Click to expand...

It was 14 degrees at 7am in Manchester yesterday - so there!


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## MrsMozart (23 December 2015)

Prancer and Vixen said:



			Question is... Did you try to help?






Click to expand...

Nope. I melted chocolate down m'trews instead


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## fatpiggy (23 December 2015)

OneTimeUser said:



			This will be my one and only post on H&H.  I posted the advert for the WOW saddle on eBay in all good faith and have this to say to "ycbm" who initiated this unnecessary thread, which I would have known nothing about had it not been for another eBay user alerting me to its existence:-

Frankly you are in my opinion the kind of person who gives the horse world a bad name and causes the kind of jealousies we will see up and down the country in a few days time at the Boxing Day Meets.

Whether we sell the saddle or not is irrelevant, I am far more concerned at the distress you have caused my wife in having to re-live the agony of having to give up riding due to arthritis.  I am also extremely annoyed at your defamation of my character and probity on a public forum.

You asked a question as to the age of the saddle through eBay and I replied 5 minutes later.  If you felt there was any problem with the item description any normal person would have come back through eBay and suggested an amendment to the listing.  As it was clear to me that the description was not clear to you, I had already updated the listing myself, for as you would have seen had you taken the trouble, I have a 100% eBay reputation as both a buyer and a seller.      

To burst into print defaming my character on a public forum 50 minutes after you had been answered, frankly beggars belief.  I have bought hundreds of items unseen on eBay from camera's to cars and after asking questions and often ringing the vendor have not had one single problem, neither has any purchaser of anything which I have sold.  

I suggest that you employ some of your obviously considerable spare time in contacting Horse & Hound and getting your defamatory comments removed.
		
Click to expand...

Get over yourself for goodness sake.  Ebay is full of scammers selling things and the horse items particularly attract them. Posters here regularly alert each other to fake adverts for horseboxes etc. YCBM has more inside knowledge about these Wow saddles than most people here and although she might have been a bit excitable, I don't think her intentions were bad.  You may have paid £2.5K for a saddle but anyone who buys a new car knows that it loses thousands in value as soon as you drive it off the dealers forecourt.  I bought my saddle second hand for £250 which was about half its new price, and when I then sold it I got the princely sum of £40.

Like your wife I also gave up riding because of arthritis.  It happens unfortunately. Not as bad as my work colleague's wife who although a very very experienced rider was walking her horse around the arena when it went up and over backwards. At 42 she was condemned to a life in a wheelchair with no prospect of ever standing unaided, let alone walking again, and her husband has to change her nappies etc.  I'm sure she would happily swap that for arthritis.


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## Queenbee (23 December 2015)

This will be my one and only post on H&H. I posted the advert for the WOW saddle on eBay in all good faith and have this to say to "ycbm" who initiated this unnecessary thread, which I would have known nothing about had it not been for another eBay user alerting me to its existence:-

Frankly you are in my opinion the kind of person who gives the horse world a bad name and causes the kind of jealousies we will see up and down the country in a few days time at the Boxing Day Meets.

Whether we sell the saddle or not is irrelevant, I am far more concerned at the distress you have caused my wife in having to re-live the agony of having to give up riding due to arthritis. I am also extremely annoyed at your defamation of my character and probity on a public forum.

You asked a question as to the age of the saddle through eBay and I replied 5 minutes later. If you felt there was any problem with the item description any normal person would have come back through eBay and suggested an amendment to the listing. As it was clear to me that the description was not clear to you, I had already updated the listing myself, for as you would have seen had you taken the trouble, I have a 100% eBay reputation as both a buyer and a seller. 

To burst into print defaming my character on a public forum 50 minutes after you had been answered, frankly beggars belief. I have bought hundreds of items unseen on eBay from camera's to cars and after asking questions and often ringing the vendor have not had one single problem, neither has any purchaser of anything which I have sold. 

I suggest that you employ some of your obviously considerable spare time in contacting Horse & Hound and getting your defamatory comments removed.
		
Click to expand...

oh my days!  How on earth did I miss this post!!  It just gets better and better!! As if this thread wan't already bat poo crazy enough!  One can understand that the sellers wife would be a little bit ticked off, and yes that the seller may be a little ticked off, but for both of them to come on HHO and burst into indignant song about this -  I wonder if we will be seeing posts from the criminal psychologist and the QC soon, perhaps great aunt fanny and cousin joe eight times removed will take a spin on the keyboard too! 

One wonders, apart from dinner parties what some folks do with their life - just sayin!


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## catembi (23 December 2015)

H'mm, I was once going to sell my Wow dressage flaps on eBay, but someone on here wanted them before I got round to it.  I sent photos; she sent money; I sent flaps; everyone was happy (except for me cos I didn't want to sell them, but I *really* needed the money for uni fees).

Now I'm starting to wish I'd sold them on eBay because I'm feeling rather cheated by my simplicity of my transaction.  Where's *my* 3-page thread...??!!  

**goes to root around in the depths of the tack room for something contentious & Wow-related to sell...think I might have got a spare head plate of unclear dimensions...**

T x


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## Queenbee (23 December 2015)

catembi said:



			H'mm, I was once going to sell my Wow dressage flaps on eBay, but someone on here wanted them before I got round to it.  I sent photos; she sent money; I sent flaps; everyone was happy (except for me cos I didn't want to sell them, but I *really* needed the money for uni fees).

Now I'm starting to wish I'd sold them on eBay because I'm feeling rather cheated by my simplicity of my transaction.  Where's *my* 3-page thread...??!!  

**goes to root around in the depths of the tack room for something contentious & Wow-related to sell...think I might have got a spare head plate of unclear dimensions...**

T x
		
Click to expand...

Do you still have pictures and a description... Im sure we could get an appraisal from OP and you can come in all guns blazing... do you have any special friends who could contribute, and a cushion to compare the flaps too?  JFTD and I would be happy to derail the topic - multiple times and Mrs M can sit in the corner eating sweets and popcorn and getting it everywhere


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## ester (23 December 2015)

Actually MrsM always used to make hot choc...


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## Queenbee (23 December 2015)

ester said:



			Actually MrsM always used to make hot choc...
		
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yeah... but she's sorta already done that, what with her melting chocolate all down her trousers and all... just thought we could give her a slightly different job to do, but if she is insistent it must be chocolate orientated, thats ok.... After reading this thread though, I do hope Mrs M signs up for HHO SS next year, Im going to get her chocolate and a bib


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## ester (23 December 2015)

I don't want to share that chocolate


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## Queenbee (23 December 2015)

ester said:



			I don't want to share that chocolate 

Click to expand...

lol!  Look what Ive just found...

have to try some of these over the festive season... 
http://metro.co.uk/2015/12/13/7-special-boozy-hot-chocolate-recipes-5373729/


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## MrsMozart (23 December 2015)

Prancer and Vixen said:



			Do you still have pictures and a description... Im sure we could get an appraisal from OP and you can come in all guns blazing... do you have any special friends who could contribute, and a cushion to compare the flaps too?  JFTD and I would be happy to derail the topic - multiple times and Mrs M can sit in the corner eating sweets and popcorn and getting it everywhere 

Click to expand...


Works for me


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## MrsMozart (23 December 2015)

Prancer and Vixen said:



			yeah... but she's sorta already done that, what with her melting chocolate all down her trousers and all... just thought we could give her a slightly different job to do, but if she is insistent it must be chocolate orientated, thats ok.... After reading this thread though, I do hope Mrs M signs up for HHO SS next year, Im going to get her chocolate and a bib 

Click to expand...

So long as it's a pelican bib


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## MrsMozart (23 December 2015)

ester said:



			Actually MrsM always used to make hot choc...
		
Click to expand...

I'm out of practice...


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## milliepops (23 December 2015)

Prancer and Vixen said:



			Do you still have pictures and a description... Im sure we could get an appraisal from OP and you can come in all guns blazing... do you have any special friends who could contribute, and a cushion to compare the flaps too?  JFTD and I would be happy to derail the topic - multiple times and Mrs M can sit in the corner eating sweets and popcorn and getting it everywhere 

Click to expand...

hahahahahahaha :biggrin3:
Just what I needed, having a cack day and this image is the perfect antedote.  :lol::clap:


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## ester (23 December 2015)

MrsMozart said:



			I'm out of practice...






Click to expand...

Well get bloomin practicing again!


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## MrsMozart (23 December 2015)

ester said:



			Well get bloomin practicing again!
		
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## Nancykitt (23 December 2015)

What an amazing thread.
This is way that I see it:
Someone who is an expert on WOW saddles and knows that people do make ill-informed purchases at times warns others that a saddle described as 'brand new' is not actually brand new at all. (Although not a legal term I would understand 'brand new to mean unused and current- that may be incorrect, but if I saw it like that other people may do too.)
There are then some eBay communication issues and the seller updates the description to explain the reason fo it being brand new even though it's 8 years old. OP is happy that the issue has been resolved. - but, for some reason, pointing out that a saddle was 8 years old has caused all sorts of emotional trauma.

I am not a legal expert but I know a little bit about defamation. In order for something to qualify as defamation it must be a lie. It must then be proven to have altered other people's opinions of the person to such an extent that it has a discernible impact on their professional or personal circumstances. Also, the person claiming defamation must have a positive reputation in the first place as they are claiming that this is what has been destroyed. I'm not sure that a 100% feedback record on eBay would count, but if it did they would only be able to pursue a case in relation to reputation on eBay; as this sort of thing must happen to lots of people I'm pretty sure it's a non-starter.
Thanks to all the people who cheered it up though!

And I'd just like to mention that I did once sell some stable mats to a QC. She became my friend but is likely to be the first person to dissuade from this sort of civil action as going to court is stressful and expensive. If the seller can't cope with someone questioning the age of a saddle then I'm not sure how they'd cope with a court case (which would cost far more than the proceeds from selling a saddle).


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## ester (23 December 2015)

Stop being so practical about this Nancy!


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## Nancykitt (23 December 2015)

ester said:



			Stop being so practical about this Nancy! 

Click to expand...

Sorry ester, I do apologise, it's just that I was going to sell a leather girth, a bridle and a bit on eBay and I'm now really worried about what might happen...


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## milliepops (23 December 2015)

Nancykitt said:



			Sorry ester, I do apologise, it's just that I was going to sell a leather girth, a bridle and a bit on eBay and I'm now really worried about what might happen...
		
Click to expand...

Lol virtually all transactions on eBay go by without a hitch.... and if not, take heart that you'll see your name in HHO lights soon enough with another hilarious and very strange thread


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## MrsMozart (23 December 2015)

milliepops said:



			Lol virtually all transactions on eBay go by without a hitch.... and if not, take heart that you'll see your name in HHO lights soon enough with another hilarious and very strange thread 

Click to expand...


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## HufflyPuffly (23 December 2015)

Indeed I did actually manage to sell a saddle on Ebay with wait for it















no issues  

Shocking I know, I feel I should contact the buyer's and see if they would like to start a thread to discuss it 

x x


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## ester (23 December 2015)

Nancykitt said:



			Sorry ester, I do apologise, it's just that I was going to sell a leather girth, a bridle and a bit on eBay and I'm now really worried about what might happen...
		
Click to expand...

Well I think the lesson here is to only do so while having a dinner party no?


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## zigzag (23 December 2015)

OMG, I have missed H&H  Still just as crazy/random threads


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## crabbymare (23 December 2015)




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## Queenbee (23 December 2015)

ester said:



			Stop being so practical about this Nancy! 

Click to expand...

Nancy is allowed to be practical and informed... she has a friend who is a QC too (pmsl)

Nancy, go and stand in the QC corner with the seller!!!


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## Nancykitt (23 December 2015)

Prancer and Vixen said:



			Nancy is allowed to be practical and informed... she has a friend who is a QC too (pmsl)

Nancy, go and stand in the QC corner with the seller!!!
		
Click to expand...

But she is my friend because I sold her some stable mats! Which were exactly as described! Does that not give me the right to go in a different corner?


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## JFTDWS (23 December 2015)

Nancykitt said:



			But she is my friend because I sold her some stable mats! Which were exactly as described! Does that not give me the right to go in a different corner?
		
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You're allowed to not be in the naughty corner.  The seller and his wife are definitely in the naughty corner.


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## catembi (23 December 2015)

I disagree, JFTD, and in the strongest possible terms.  By selling an item as described, Nancykitt has wilfully deprived the buyer of her entitlement to start a bonkers thread explaining how disappointed she is with her purchase.  The only fair course of restitution would be for her to sell the QC something else that is NOT as described, thus affording her the opportunity to whinge about it & throw a dinner party.

It's the Naughty Corner all the way until she has rectified this miscarriage of justice.

T x


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## Queenbee (23 December 2015)

catembi said:



			I disagree, JFTD, and in the strongest possible terms.  By selling an item as described, Nancykitt has wilfully deprived the buyer of her entitlement to start a bonkers thread explaining how disappointed she is with her purchase.  The only fair course of restitution would be for her to sell the QC something else that is NOT as described, thus affording her the opportunity to whinge about it & throw a dinner party.

It's the Naughty Corner all the way until she has rectified this miscarriage of justice.

T x
		
Click to expand...

I'm in catembi's corner! Nancy is well out of line!!!


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## CowCob (24 December 2015)

Oh my goodness me, this thead, this blimmin thread :lol:

Apart from the fact it's definitely not defamation, seller please do go retrieve your head, you're someone who sells things on eBay you're not anything to care about. A total percentage of 0% people (that is the stats from a maths major friend who I had to phone because I don't have dinner parties, perhaps I should I would have known about this mess sooner) are going to care about the fact someone made a post about you on H&H, infact I even doubt they'll know! You're acting like KEP on the whole hat turning into a chocolate orange thread thing but I digress. OP pointed out very well that there were issues with the ad and posted on H&H saying if anyone was in the market not to go for it for the reasons that (if you're not familiar with your WOW's) aren't obvious. 

The whole health shpeal (even the mention on the ad) was unnecessary and going on the you're trying to act as a professional- overly personal. The crimial pathology comment was just silly and honestly I'm going to deflamate your character some more by saying I doubt a CP would ever even say that without at least one assesment of OP. I also doubt anything will be removed, there's nothing wrong about this post. 

I could go on for another year but anyway, the saddle has only apparently been used once but there are clearly marks from leathers on the flaps. Only a very well used saddle could get those, definately not from a one time sit on type of job. I can't see how a saddle would get leather marks from being in storeage. It'd take a very heavy, very funny shaped object a lot of time for that to happen...

JFTD- come on fess up what's your and I quote "ulterior motive"?! I reckon you're their neighbour and you don't like their yippy (disclaimer: this is me deflating charachter by assuming seller has a dog and a yippy one at that) dog and are just doing this to get back on them! You horrible person! :lol: 

Sorry I think someone has spiked my hot choc, I'm in a very funny mood today for some reason.


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## OldNag (24 December 2015)

IMO this whole thread could have been avoided if the seller had simply scrolled down and ticked "used" instead of "new". 

But we wouldn't have had 15 (so far, on my phone at any rate) pages of weirdness,  and the seller's dinner party conversation would have been far less engaging, so I (and, no doubt, the QC, the criminal psychologist and Uncle Tom Cobleigh) am glad they didn't.


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## ester (24 December 2015)

CowCob said:



			Sorry I think someone has spiked my hot choc, I'm in a very funny mood today for some reason.
		
Click to expand...

That would have been that MrsM


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## ycbm (24 December 2015)

ester said:



			That would have been that MrsM
		
Click to expand...


It might have been me, I threw Peroni all over the settee last night, maybe some went in her mug? I've been a bit too busy seeing my psychiatrist,  behaviourist,  probation officer, social worker and  lawyer to post on this thread but you've all been doing a great job without me


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## CowCob (24 December 2015)

Ignore the fact I definitely totally didn't get your name wrong in that silly post Ycbm, I think there was definitely more than a little of something in my hot choc! I'll be off hiding for eternity for my renaming of you :O


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## JFTDWS (24 December 2015)

CowCob said:



			JFTD- come on fess up what's your and I quote "ulterior motive"?! I reckon you're their neighbour and you don't like their yippy (disclaimer: this is me deflating charachter by assuming seller has a dog and a yippy one at that) dog and are just doing this to get back on them! You horrible person! :lol:
		
Click to expand...

I think you have me confused with the OP.  I feel obliged to point this out as I have no specialist knowledge of WOWs at all.  It would be wrong of me to allow you to believe otherwise.

My motives for posting on this thread are complicated...  At Christmas time, it's hard but when you're having fun, there's a world outside your window and it's a world of lawsuits and drama, where the only saddles selling are misdescribed on e-bay.  And the dinner parties they hold there are attended by demi-dig-ni-ties...  Well tonight thank God it's them instead of you!

And there won't be fun with arthitis this Christmas time.  The only gift they'll get this year is suing.  Where saddles are never used, no cushions ever crease.  Do they know it's Christmas time at all?





catembi said:



			I disagree, JFTD, and in the strongest possible terms.  By selling an item as described, Nancykitt has wilfully deprived the buyer of her entitlement to start a bonkers thread explaining how disappointed she is with her purchase.  The only fair course of restitution would be for her to sell the QC something else that is NOT as described, thus affording her the opportunity to whinge about it & throw a dinner party.

It's the Naughty Corner all the way until she has rectified this miscarriage of justice.

T x
		
Click to expand...

I stand, or rather, sit (on my creased cushion - not a euphemism) corrected.


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## Nancykitt (24 December 2015)

As it's Christmas, let's just draw a line under the whole thing.
But not before we've each found a QC to befriend so that we can use them to threaten people with when we dn't get our own way. Then we can have a game of 'My QC's better than your QC', which would go something like 'Mine specialises in murder and gangland crime' - Well mine was invited to be master of the bench at Lincoln's Inn, so ner ner ner ner ner.' We could even invent a card game involving cards featuring criminal psychologists, QCs, surgeons, pathologists, each with different 'powers'. Hours of fun.
Off now to write a description for my leather girth along the lines of 'not used many times but each crease represents a moment of pain in the arena while trying to school the big daft cob.' Totally unambiguous.


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## ester (24 December 2015)

And you know for some of us every time we read QC all we read is Quality Control... 

Has top trumps not already been invented


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## Queenbee (24 December 2015)

Nancykitt said:



			As it's Christmas, let's just draw a line under the whole thing.
But not before we've each found a QC to befriend so that we can use them to threaten people with when we dn't get our own way. Then we can have a game of 'My QC's better than your QC', which would go something like 'Mine specialises in murder and gangland crime' - Well mine was invited to be master of the bench at Lincoln's Inn, so ner ner ner ner ner.' We could even invent a card game involving cards featuring criminal psychologists, QCs, surgeons, pathologists, each with different 'powers'. Hours of fun.
Off now to write a description for my leather girth along the lines of 'not used many times but each crease represents a moment of pain in the arena while trying to school the big daft cob.' Totally unambiguous.
		
Click to expand...



I do love the card game idea... Nancy dearest, you have redeemed yourself, you can come out of the corner and play with the other bizarre bonkers people in the room.


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## MrsMozart (24 December 2015)

CowCob said:



			Oh my goodness me, this thead, this blimmin thread :lol:

Apart from the fact it's definitely not defamation, seller please do go retrieve your head, you're someone who sells things on eBay you're not anything to care about. A total percentage of 0% people (that is the stats from a maths major friend who I had to phone because I don't have dinner parties, perhaps I should I would have known about this mess sooner) are going to care about the fact someone made a post about you on H&H, infact I even doubt they'll know! You're acting like KEP on the whole hat turning into a chocolate orange thread thing but I digress. OP pointed out very well that there were issues with the ad and posted on H&H saying if anyone was in the market not to go for it for the reasons that (if you're not familiar with your WOW's) aren't obvious. 

The whole health shpeal (even the mention on the ad) was unnecessary and going on the you're trying to act as a professional- overly personal. The crimial pathology comment was just silly and honestly I'm going to deflamate your character some more by saying I doubt a CP would ever even say that without at least one assesment of OP. I also doubt anything will be removed, there's nothing wrong about this post. 

I could go on for another year but anyway, the saddle has only apparently been used once but there are clearly marks from leathers on the flaps. Only a very well used saddle could get those, definately not from a one time sit on type of job. I can't see how a saddle would get leather marks from being in storeage. It'd take a very heavy, very funny shaped object a lot of time for that to happen...

JFTD- come on fess up what's your and I quote "ulterior motive"?! I reckon you're their neighbour and you don't like their yippy (disclaimer: this is me deflating charachter by assuming seller has a dog and a yippy one at that) dog and are just doing this to get back on them! You horrible person! :lol: 

Sorry I think someone has spiked my hot choc, I'm in a very funny mood today for some reason.
		
Click to expand...

Oi! You defaming my hot chocolate?! Well really! *roots around in address book for QC, criminal psychologist, lion tamer, and hit man's numbers, all the while wishing I'd had the foresight to invite them round for nibbles*



ester said:



			That would have been that MrsM
		
Click to expand...

And as for you madam! Well. *adds name to list to amuse and bemuse guests with*


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## MrsMozart (24 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			I stand, or rather, sit (on my creased cushion - not a euphemism) corrected.
		
Click to expand...

Think carefully lass, are you sure, or do you need counselling? I'm sure someone around here knows a good one, if not then you can have mine (and good luck with that  ).


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## Fun Times (24 December 2015)

Part of me is finding this thread really funny, but I fear it's the same part of me that laughed when one of the popular kids at school put the little spotty one upside down in a bin. It's not a part of me that I am proud of to be honest....


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## Queenbee (24 December 2015)

Fun Times said:



			Part of me is finding this thread really funny, but I fear it's the same part of me that laughed when one of the popular kids at school put the little spotty one upside down in a bin. It's not a part of me that I am proud of to be honest....
		
Click to expand...

I know exactly what you mean... its not Nancy's fault she has a friend who is a QC... perhaps we are all a little bit cruel for making her stand in the corner.


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## EQUIDAE (24 December 2015)

Fun Times said:



			Part of me is finding this thread really funny, but I fear it's the same part of me that laughed when one of the popular kids at school put the little spotty one upside down in a bin. It's not a part of me that I am proud of to be honest....
		
Click to expand...

I think of it differently - it's more like when the braggy little know it all name dropper at pony club falls off and spits their dummy out...


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## BlackRider (24 December 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			I think of it differently - it's more like when the braggy little know it all name dropper at pony club falls off and spits their dummy out...
		
Click to expand...

Yep! this has been hilarious....

Sadly I don't know any QC's.... retires back to cave...


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## Rapidash (24 December 2015)

Ironically I was wading through this thread to see what all the fuss is about and a saddle I've bought off eBay just got delivered! Barefoot Cheyenne- very excited that this might be the one!


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## teapot (24 December 2015)

People discuss their eBay listings at dinner parties? Good god. 

Now having a repeated vision of when Bridget Jones arrives at the smug married dinner party...


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## Shady (24 December 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			I think of it differently - it's more like when the braggy little know it all name dropper at pony club falls off and spits their dummy out...
		
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly! i'm ashamed to admit i've had a good laugh at this thread
going off to have a beer with Johnny Depp now.......


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## Queenbee (24 December 2015)

Shady said:



			My thoughts exactly! i'm ashamed to admit i've had a good laugh at this thread
going off to have a beer with Johnny Depp now.......

Click to expand...

Possibly the best post of the thread! &#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;


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## Mongoose11 (24 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			I think you have me confused with the OP.  I feel obliged to point this out as I have no specialist knowledge of WOWs at all.  It would be wrong of me to allow you to believe otherwise.

My motives for posting on this thread are complicated...  At Christmas time, it's hard but when you're having fun, there's a world outside your window and it's a world of lawsuits and drama, where the only saddles selling are misdescribed on e-bay.  And the dinner parties they hold there are attended by demi-dig-ni-ties...  Well tonight thank God it's them instead of you!

And there won't be fun with arthitis this Christmas time.  The only gift they'll get this year is suing.  Where saddles are never used, no cushions ever crease.  Do they know it's Christmas time at all?





I stand, or rather, sit (on my creased cushion - not a euphemism) corrected.
		
Click to expand...

I can't express my deep joy at reading this, as HHo will not tolerate the language required to properly demonstrate my appreciation


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## CowCob (24 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			I think you have me confused with the OP.  I feel obliged to point this out as I have no specialist knowledge of WOWs at all.  It would be wrong of me to allow you to believe otherwise.
		
Click to expand...

Yep, that was me posting at 3am that caused that, sorry! I need to remember to not post things when I'm half asleep, they're ohen quite odd haha


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## JFTDWS (24 December 2015)

Fun Times said:



			Part of me is finding this thread really funny, but I fear it's the same part of me that laughed when one of the popular kids at school put the little spotty one upside down in a bin. It's not a part of me that I am proud of to be honest....
		
Click to expand...

Not quite.  It's more like the kid who comes to school with his gym kit in an attache case and a bowler with a chin strap that makes them look like Elizabeth Taylor in National Velvet being shoved into their locker by the Catullus quoting, Trek watching chess club president and some (probably much cooler) friends...



MrsMozart said:



			Think carefully lass, are you sure, or do you need counselling? I'm sure someone around here knows a good one, if not then you can have mine (and good luck with that  ).
		
Click to expand...

Ah.  Obviously I do need therapy, but that's nothing to do with my creased cushion.  This thread is a testament to that 


Cowcob, you're going to have to try harder to come across as "odd" on this thread.  We have practically re-defined the word.


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## JFTDWS (24 December 2015)

Mongoose11 said:



			I can't express my deep joy at reading this, as HHo will not tolerate the language required to properly demonstrate my appreciation 

Click to expand...

Delighted to be of service.  I'm glad someone liked it


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## Llanali (24 December 2015)

I feel it might have been the defining post of Christmas 2015, 
JFTD. Thank you.

And did you know, every time I read your name I am reminded of a popular workplace phrase, usually attributed to compliance training, or budget forecasting; a JFDI. Just *flipping* Do It.


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## EQUIDAE (29 December 2015)

I've been logged off for a week and am very disappointed that no updates since Christmas Eve!


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## popsdosh (29 December 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			I've been logged off for a week and am very disappointed that no updates since Christmas Eve!
		
Click to expand...

I think they have all gone to the Alps to plan their next move!
I was thinking god whose dragged this up again!


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