# euthanasia of DANGEROUS horse.....INSURANCE INFO NEEDED!!!



## trigger11 (21 February 2011)

Hello. 
Please help answer the questions I have on this!

I have a horse (owned for 2years) who I think now is dangerous. I am a competent rider (competed to Intermediate BE, Med BD etc and bred my own comp horses) and I have really brought this horse on. 

I think he must have had an 'experience' or been bullied/beaten as a youngster (before I had him). I bought him at 6 - he is now 8. 

I did a season BE on him in 2010 at 100 level and he had some fab results (placings etc) and some rotational and other falls also (due to napping and lack of concentration). 
I've sympathetically worked on him in terms of water, hacking etc, all of which were/are major issues for him and its all marginally improved, but not at the level Id expect after two years. 

In warm up areas particularly he had huge problems with other horses coming towards him. 
I went to dressage last week and between my Novice and Elem tests (when back in the warm up area) a horse trotted toward him up the long side and he freaked himself out so much about it - he threw himself on the floor with me on top! 
This is when I decided that I think this has all got out of hand! 

He acts as though the thing bugging him is driving him so crazy that when he actions it, he doesn't consider himself in the consequences let alone his rider. He just has to get away from whatever it is as fast as possible! (horrible and I really feel for him)

I am wondering where I stand with my insurance?
I think putting him to sleep would be kindest/safest for all involved. 
He is insured for what I bought him for (which I still 100% owe to my dad, so I have to get this back). 
He has a high level policy (for competing at this level) and is with a reputable company (AIMS I think).

What do you have to do in this situation? And do insurance companies pay out for euthanasia and loss of the horse (insured value) for these reasons???
What tests/vet recommendations need to be done and will the insurance company pay for this?

ANY HELP APPRECIATED!!!!


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## LadyRascasse (21 February 2011)

well, i would get the vet to give him the once over first as i doubt the insurance company would pay out otherwise. anyone could say there horse is dangerous just to get the money off the insurance company (would have to be callous but it is still a possibility) To me the only thing that springs to mind is possible brain tumor (like that racehorse) but your vet would be the best to advise, also i would ring the insurance and ask how you would stand.


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## rossiroo (21 February 2011)

sorry to hear of your problems, I dont know if this will help, but I had a mare who was quite well behaved untill she was box rested then turned out in a restricted paddock. She then got upset and broke through the fencing to come back to the yard, this was at flat out gallop. Luckily no one was knocked over. She did this twice before I was able to move her away. I approached my vet with the view to have her PTS as I was concerned that someone may get hurt by her behavior. She was fully insured but I was told by the vet that I would not be able to claim any of her value. I suggest that you contact your insurers to see where you stand. Good luck


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## Tr0uble (21 February 2011)

I'm afraid insurance will only pay out for loss of horse if the horse was PTS for humane reasons, and there are quite tight restrictions on what these reasons are. I would be surprised if your horse fall into this category.

Is he insured for loss of use?


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## LadyRascasse (21 February 2011)

this is from petplans terms and conditions




			Death from Injury or Illness 
What we will pay 
The market valueof your horsefollowing: 
&#8226; Death as a result of an injuryor illnessthat happened or first showed clinical signsduring the policy 
year,or 
&#8226; Euthanasia as a result of an injuryor illnessthat happened or first showed clinical signsduring the 
policy yearand which meets the current British Equine Veterinary Association (BEVA) Guidelines for 
the Destruction of Horses Under All Risks Mortality Insurance Policy. 
What we will not pay 
1. Any amount if your horse&#8217;scondition does not meet the current British Equine Veterinary Association 
(BEVA) Guidelines for the Destruction of Horses Under All Risks Mortality Insurance Policy. 
2. More than the sum insured. 
3. Any amount if the death or euthanasia of your horsehappened more than 12 monthsafter the date the 
injuryhappened or the first clinical signsof the illnesswere noticed,that led to the death or euthanasia. 
4. Any amount if yourvetor our vetbelieves the illnessor injuryyour horseis suffering from can be treated. 
5. Any amount if yourvetor our vetbelieves it is humane to keep your horsealive. 
6. Any amount if the euthanasia of your horseis carried out before youtell usabout youror yourvet&#8217;s 
decision for euthanasia,unless yourvetbelieves there was no time for youto tell usbecause your horse 
was in so much pain that it needed immediate euthanasia.
		
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so you would have to have the vet agree that the vet was a danger to either itself or others before they would allow you to claim. if for example the horse was dangerous to ride but safe to handle etc the vet can't recommend euthanasia as a option. however if you had LOU you could claim that


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## trigger11 (21 February 2011)

Thank you both!

I know I need to call the insurance company - just a little dubious, as don't want them to mark is card, or say that they wouldn't renew the insurance when it comes to it due to what Ive said or anything like that!

Really worried about making any moves that could make the situation even worse than it already is :-(

Thanks again!


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## Dolcé (21 February 2011)

I would speak to your vet, possibly have him assessed by some sort of professional trainer but speak to your insurance company.   I think your vet is probably most important as he may need to be checked for a brain tumour or some physical reason for his behaviour.  What an awful situation for you to be in, I really hope you can get the resolution you need.


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## LadyRascasse (21 February 2011)

BEVA guideline 




			The British Equine Veterinary Association guidelines state that euthanasia should be carried out if &#8216;the insured horse sustains an injury or manifests an illness or disease that is so severe as to warrant immediate destruction to relieve incurable and excessive pain and that no other options of treatment are available to that horse at that time&#8217;. The insurers should be notified as soon as possible. They will require a veterinary certificate confirming the identity of the horse and the reason why it was destroyed and may also ask for a post mortem.
		
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## trigger11 (21 February 2011)

Thank you - I am really touched by your kind responses - it is a terrible position to be in! 
I dont quite know what to do with myself tbh and am quick turning into an emotional wreck over the situation! 
Im at my bf's house atm so will check on whether I have LOU on my policy or not tomorrow and let you all know! 
Thank you again - its nice to know that people care about the situation, while Im trying to figure the damn situation out! 

Im thinking myself its more of a psychological thing rather than a physical thing (would never say never though). However, if the vet found no tumor etc... and as you say he's fine to handle etc but not ride, then I guess I wouldnt have a leg to stand on insurance wise :-(


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## trigger11 (21 February 2011)

LadyRascasse - Thank you for doing some research on the small print of things! much appreciated. Not exactly what I wanted to see/hear... but better to be armed with knowledge I guess to properly be able to assess the situation further and make some decisions on what to do!


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## SusieT (21 February 2011)

Why not send him to someone else for schooling? Many horses don't gel with some riders after all.
Or retire him? He is healthy other than the competition environment? Does he hack? Showjump/Dressage? I know you said the problem this week was in the warm up..
Has he had any vet work up?


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## noodle_ (21 February 2011)

agree with otheres - you wont be covered 

i wont tell you what someone did to claim loss of use to their horse in a similar positon :/


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## Hoof Hearted (21 February 2011)

SusieT said:



			Why not send him to someone else for schooling? Many horses don't gel with some riders after all.
Or retire him? He is healthy other than the competition environment? Does he hack? Showjump/Dressage? I know you said the problem this week was in the warm up..
Has he had any vet work up?
		
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Ditto that ?


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## Tr0uble (21 February 2011)

It's an awful situation to be in. My horse Snip has health issues which make him a prime LOU candidate...excet he isn't covered for loss of use! *sigh*

He is covered for loss of horse but the issues weren't classed as keeping him alive being inhumane so couldn't claim even if he was PTS. I now have a potentially unrideable horse, who's only rising 8, and not an easy boy to handle - would def NOT be a candidate for turning away and living a nice easy retired life (tried it!)

I still hold out hope he'll come sound, but it has taken £8000 of investigation and treatment to find out what was wrong with him (recurrent Exertional Rhabdomyolysis - tying up) and to treat him to the point where he is at least field sound now. 

I have drugs to start using when my knee is fit again, so I do still hope to ride him.

It is worth noting, if you decide to go down the vet investigation route, that if it is proved to not be anything 'real' then you will end up with VERY large vet bills. That said, I'm very glad I took the risk because we found the problem, I was covered, and now I can do the best I can for him....even if he is a useless beast! 

For a long time we all thought his issues were psychological, and brain tumour was also suggested to me. We found and treated ulcers.....lots of red herrings! Sometime you ust have to keep digging.


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## brucea (21 February 2011)

Something tells me you should get the vet to check out his eyesight - this sounds like the behaviour of a horse who is having visual problems.


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## amage (21 February 2011)

At the risk of sounding cold...if he is in no pain and you feel that PTS is a viable option then why not exhaust your policy a bit if vet feels that the horse warrants further investigation? I know that sounds kind of harsh but I just feel that in such a predicament I would want to try ad ascertain any possible reason and if he is in no pain and insurance isn't going to pay out then I would certainly investigate as far as possible with insurance paying.


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## misst (22 February 2011)

amage said:



			At the risk of sounding cold...if he is in no pain and you feel that PTS is a viable option then why not exhaust your policy a bit if vet feels that the horse warrants further investigation? I know that sounds kind of harsh but I just feel that in such a predicament I would want to try ad ascertain any possible reason and if he is in no pain and insurance isn't going to pay out then I would certainly investigate as far as possible with insurance paying.
		
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This seems like the best option as it may show something that can be fixed and if not may give you the option of PTS. You have nothing to loose. Personally I would not risk injury though, and I would not be asking anyone else to either (I know that was not the OPs intention but others have suggested someone else ride him).


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## Amymay (22 February 2011)

I'd ring your insurance company and ask them.

But if you genuinly think he's dangerous and should be destroyed, then do it.  Regardless of what the insurance implications are.

Heartbreaking for you.


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## Flame_ (22 February 2011)

You won't get a payout on behavioral grounds, even LOU. To claim LOU there has to be a diagnosed physical issue. 

I think you have to accept the purchase money is spent and either you keep the horse and make the best of it, you PTS and accept you have no money and no horse, or you sell the horse for what you can get knowing the risk that he may be passed around and/or hurt someone.

A very common, sad and frustrating situation.


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## Orangehorse (22 February 2011)

A really bad situation to be in, but I agree with the thorough vet's diagnois too.  Think of everything weird it could be, from eyesight to ulcers to brain tumour.  Think carefully what you are going to tell the insurance company though, and make sure you are covered for vets fees.

I would write down what happened to you to show the vet, and also any other incidences you can think off.

I had a mare who was "funny" in a collecting ring and I think she must have been knocked over at one stage as she couldn't bear a strange horse anywhere near her and would doge out of the way and kick out.  She also had a hatred of grey horses!  Still, her oddness was containable and she didn't do anything to put the rider in danger.  Yours sounds a much more difficult problem.


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## ironhorse (22 February 2011)

The collecting ring thing MAY be sortable....our mare had been deliberately rammed into the wall by another competitor at an indoor show (oh the joys of showing!) and was a big problem both in the ring and the warm up...she would either buck or lash out and tried to lie down once.

We worked with our trainer and lots of other horses on desensitising her, riding quiet horses increasingly close to her, and ignoring her if she got upset (rather than telling her off or trying to hold her) while making a fuss of her if she stayed calm.

It did work, and she is so much better now, although she needs the occasional 'top up' if we're going to a venue that we know is a bit hairy.

But if he's doing it in other circumstances, that's more difficult and you have my every sympathy.


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## alfiesmum (22 February 2011)

firstly speak to your vet.
i fyou decide to then talk to your insurance then you should be ready for them to not to pay out and ask why you didnt inform them of the horses behavour before. i am sure i have read that somewhere the if you consider your horse to be dangerous then you must inform your insurance company straight away.
good luck and i hope your vet finds somethin silly and it gets sorted quickly x


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## applecart14 (23 February 2011)

Tr0uble said:



			I'm afraid insurance will only pay out for loss of horse if the horse was PTS for humane reasons, and there are quite tight restrictions on what these reasons are. I would be surprised if your horse fall into this category.

Is he insured for loss of use?
		
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I agree with what Trouble says.  My horse was diagnosed as being a wobbler.  He had three episodes of severe ataxia before being referred to an Equine Hospital where a diagnosis was made. The delay in referring him stemmed from a misdiagnosis of EHV (equine herpes virus) which delayed him being referred due to the threat posed by passing on this disease.  When he eventually went to the hospital and after receiving comprehensive xrays whilst there which showed the extent of damage to his vetebrae, he was diagnosed with late onset wobblers or CVM or the equivalent (equine cervical malformation).  The vet recommended immediate humane destruction under the grounds that the horse was a danger to himself and others by his ataxia which would surely increase in occurence in the future.  I asked whether I would be covered on my policy and was assured that I would be.  It took a couple more weeks than normal for my claim to go through but I did eventually receive a


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## letrec_fan (23 February 2011)

Is it just when you ride him? Because if it is, surely he is not a danger to himself or others on the ground. Sorry if I misunderstood your original post and that I am no help insurance wise, just wondered.


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## Always Blue (23 February 2011)

noodle_ said:



			agree with otheres - you wont be covered 

i wont tell you what someone did to claim loss of use to their horse in a similar positon :/
		
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what did they do??


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## friesian80 (23 February 2011)

Someone local to me had her mare PTS on vets advice as vet was convinced she had neurological problems, she had suddenly become beyond dangerous to humans and herself (this was totally unlike her).
But as a post mortem had not been done the insurer refused to pay out (think she was with NFU).
Im not sure if a neurological disorder can be detected by PM but this was the reason the insurance gave her for not paying out.


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## SirenaXVI (23 February 2011)

Echo whomever said to get the vet check him out, he may have a brain tumour or something physical which would in fact be covered by your insurance company.

Such a sad situation and you are obviously not taking this decision lightly, neither do you sound as if you are simply overhorsed, you seem to have done everything you could for this horse and are making a very brave and hard decision, I feel for you.


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## Amaranta (23 February 2011)

SusieT said:



			Why not send him to someone else for schooling? Many horses don't gel with some riders after all.
Or retire him? He is healthy other than the competition environment? Does he hack? Showjump/Dressage? I know you said the problem this week was in the warm up..
Has he had any vet work up?
		
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The OP does not sound like an incompetant ninny!  I am sure she has worked hard at reschooling and desensitizing him, there are far worse things than death!

Not everyone has the facilities to keep a horse in retirement and in these cases it is far kinder to have PTS tbh.

Agree re the vet workup though.


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## Sanolly (23 February 2011)

Amaranta said:



			The OP does not sound like an incompetant ninny!  I am sure she has worked hard at reschooling and desensitizing him, there are far worse things than death!

Not everyone has the facilities to keep a horse in retirement and in these cases it is far kinder to have PTS tbh.

Agree re the vet workup though.
		
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Admittedly I am not SuzieT's biggest fan, however nowhere in her post does it suggest that the OP is an "incompetent ninny". It is a fact of life that some horses and riders just don't get on.


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## Horseback Rider (23 February 2011)

If he has comprehensive insurance I would get all the tests done first so that you can be sure there is no underlyng reason. He obviously has talent as you have done well with him so far, IMHO i think it would be a shame not to check every thing first.


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## paulineh (23 February 2011)

trigger11

I will Pm you my thoughts and tell you why a pm.


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## squiz22 (25 February 2011)

Hi.. 

I once had a pony that came to us classed as dangerous. It wasn't allowed up to the pc field.. ! Anyway, we effectively cured his ways and I show jumped him to a decent level won a couple of things at Hickstead. A friend had a similar incident and her horse would go beserk rear up and fall over on itself. It was absolutely screwy and had no self preservation. So I've seen it from both sides and if you feel its the safest option then thats a responsible decision. We all love our horses and none of us would take a decision like this lightly. It would be awful if he ended up int he wrong hands/doped and sold on or something. 

If it was me I'd want to eliminate a physical problem and you may as well if you are insured?


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## foxy1 (25 February 2011)

trigger11 said:



			Hello. 
Please help answer the questions I have on this!

I have a horse (owned for 2years) who I think now is dangerous. I am a competent rider (competed to Intermediate BE, Med BD etc and bred my own comp horses) and I have really brought this horse on. 

I think he must have had an 'experience' or been bullied/beaten as a youngster (before I had him). I bought him at 6 - he is now 8. 

I did a season BE on him in 2010 at 100 level and he had some fab results (placings etc) and some rotational and other falls also (due to napping and lack of concentration). 
I've sympathetically worked on him in terms of water, hacking etc, all of which were/are major issues for him and its all marginally improved, but not at the level Id expect after two years. 

In warm up areas particularly he had huge problems with other horses coming towards him. 
I went to dressage last week and between my Novice and Elem tests (when back in the warm up area) a horse trotted toward him up the long side and he freaked himself out so much about it - he threw himself on the floor with me on top! 
This is when I decided that I think this has all got out of hand! 

He acts as though the thing bugging him is driving him so crazy that when he actions it, he doesn't consider himself in the consequences let alone his rider. He just has to get away from whatever it is as fast as possible! (horrible and I really feel for him)

I am wondering where I stand with my insurance?
I think putting him to sleep would be kindest/safest for all involved. 
He is insured for what I bought him for (which I still 100% owe to my dad, so I have to get this back). 
He has a high level policy (for competing at this level) and is with a reputable company (AIMS I think).

What do you have to do in this situation? And do insurance companies pay out for euthanasia and loss of the horse (insured value) for these reasons???
What tests/vet recommendations need to be done and will the insurance company pay for this?

ANY HELP APPRECIATED!!!!
		
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I would send him to someone with experience working with difficult horses.
I can recommend Jason Webb who has re-trained many unrideable/unhandleable horses, many of whom are in 'last chance saloon'. 
If Jason thinks he has a physical problem or is dangerous he will tell you soon enough.


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## zoon (26 February 2011)

I have a horse who was due to be PTS sleep as he was a danger to humans handling him due to an undiagnosed medical issue, nothing behavioural.  When out in the field, he seemed happy as larry, but physical contact caused him pain and they could not work out why.  He appeared to be pain free when turned away.  With the winter coming we decided to PTS as he is such a poor doer than he was unlikely to survive winter with stabling, handling to rug him etc, and handling him put the person in danger as he would violently strike out.

My vet wrote to the insurance company and said that he was due to be PTS against BEVA guidelines as he was a danger to his handlers.  He argued that too keep him alive would be a danger to the people who would be required to handle him and a liabilty claim would almost certainly occur.

The insurance company could chose to pay out his value or chose to go with BEVA guidelines and refuse, but almost certainly have a very high value claim when he injured someone!

Guess what they chose?

They agreed to go against all their own terms and conditions and pay out his value upon PTS and a post mortem would not be required (since it would do no good!)

Fortunately for us, some last minute experimental treatment based on nothing but a stab in the dark cured him and he is still with me today 

Unfortunately for us, due to vets letter stating he was very dangerous he is now uninsurable!


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## Humble (26 February 2011)

zoon said:



			Fortunately for us, some last minute experimental treatment based on nothing but a stab in the dark cured him and he is still with me today 

Unfortunately for us, due to vets letter stating he was very dangerous he is now uninsurable!
		
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Can you tell us what the last minute experimental treatment was


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## zoon (28 February 2011)

Humble said:



			Can you tell us what the last minute experimental treatment was
		
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Didn't want to hijack post and explain, but as the post seems to have stopped now, I will explain.

The word experimental was most definately the wrong choice of word.  Possibly alternative would have been more appropriate.  Or plain weird!

I had booked the date for PTS and had given myself a week.  Someone else at my yard suggested I use her "back man".  I explained to her that my horse could not be touched and asked if her back man had a death wish?  She proceeded to explain that he was rather alternative, wouldn't need to touch the horse and was only £20 so why didn't I just ring him since my horse was a "dead man walking"

So gave him a ring and booked him to come down.  The story behind him is this -
As a younger man he was a farrier and one day was out working in a storm and was struck by lightening.  He was only lightly injured and was back to work pretty soon.  No idea how he realised it, but soon discovered he was "magnetic" since the lightening incident.  Not in the sense that spoons stuck to him, but he claims he can now manipulate tissue without physical contact.  He explained this over the phone and I thought it was worth the £20 to see how crazy this guy actually was!

So the day comes, only a couple of days before my horse is going to be PTS.  He goes into stable and stands at the opposite end from my horse who is merrily munching away at haybar looking as if nothing is wrong with him.  I warn the man not to touch him and he says he doesn't need to, stands level with his shoulders, sticks his hands out with palms facing horse and does nothing!  I stand there chuckling to myself for a moment at how crazy this man is and how crazy I am for getting him to come out until the hair on my horses shoulds stands up on end.  Gobsmacked, I watch as he moves down the stable and the hair on my horse moves with him.  The muscles under his hands (horse was about 6ft away) twitch violently and my horse seems a bit peed off to say the least - but he is not touching him.  After a while of doing this over my horse, the mucles relax and seem to pulse rhythmically with the man's hands and horse relaxes.  

The next day, horse was pretty much back to normal.  The day he is due to be PTS, I explain the vet that he is back to normal - totally normal - and will will not require his services!  Vet comes up anyway as he cannot believe it, and sure enough horse is not bothered by even the most firm manipulation.  When I told vet the story, he said he had heard some things about this man, and it may be him or it may be coincidence, but it worked and my horse is still here today, 2 years on in full work.

Told this story when it first happened and lots of people accused me of being a troll etc or simply lying, but it is true.  I am a total sceptic - hence why I got him out in the first place - for my amusement!  But my horse is better now and I really done give 2 hoots why. Not sure I belive the lightening story, but there are plenty of things out there we humans don't understand and this little man is certainly one of them!


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## feefeeb28 (28 February 2011)

zoon said:



			Didn't want to hijack post and explain, but as the post seems to have stopped now, I will explain.

The word experimental was most definately the wrong choice of word.  Possibly alternative would have been more appropriate.  Or plain weird!

I had booked the date for PTS and had given myself a week.  Someone else at my yard suggested I use her "back man".  I explained to her that my horse could not be touched and asked if her back man had a death wish?  She proceeded to explain that he was rather alternative, wouldn't need to touch the horse and was only £20 so why didn't I just ring him since my horse was a "dead man walking"

So gave him a ring and booked him to come down.  The story behind him is this -
As a younger man he was a farrier and one day was out working in a storm and was struck by lightening.  He was only lightly injured and was back to work pretty soon.  No idea how he realised it, but soon discovered he was "magnetic" since the lightening incident.  Not in the sense that spoons stuck to him, but he claims he can now manipulate tissue without physical contact.  He explained this over the phone and I thought it was worth the £20 to see how crazy this guy actually was!

So the day comes, only a couple of days before my horse is going to be PTS.  He goes into stable and stands at the opposite end from my horse who is merrily munching away at haybar looking as if nothing is wrong with him.  I warn the man not to touch him and he says he doesn't need to, stands level with his shoulders, sticks his hands out with palms facing horse and does nothing!  I stand there chuckling to myself for a moment at how crazy this man is and how crazy I am for getting him to come out until the hair on my horses shoulds stands up on end.  Gobsmacked, I watch as he moves down the stable and the hair on my horse moves with him.  The muscles under his hands (horse was about 6ft away) twitch violently and my horse seems a bit peed off to say the least - but he is not touching him.  After a while of doing this over my horse, the mucles relax and seem to pulse rhythmically with the man's hands and horse relaxes.  

The next day, horse was pretty much back to normal.  The day he is due to be PTS, I explain the vet that he is back to normal - totally normal - and will will not require his services!  Vet comes up anyway as he cannot believe it, and sure enough horse is not bothered by even the most firm manipulation.  When I told vet the story, he said he had heard some things about this man, and it may be him or it may be coincidence, but it worked and my horse is still here today, 2 years on in full work.

Told this story when it first happened and lots of people accused me of being a troll etc or simply lying, but it is true.  I am a total sceptic - hence why I got him out in the first place - for my amusement!  But my horse is better now and I really done give 2 hoots why. Not sure I belive the lightening story, but there are plenty of things out there we humans don't understand and this little man is certainly one of them!
		
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That's fascinating, I'm a total doubter but have been amazed by some alternative therapies which seem to do the trick


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## TallyHo123 (28 February 2011)

Have you explored all other options? Vet, dentist, physio, alternative therapy etc?
If so if you beileve he is dangerous I would discuss with your vet and see where to go from there. I have been in a similar situation and wouldn't wish it on anyone.


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## foxy1 (28 February 2011)

Zoon
I know this man (his name is John, otherwise known as magic man!), he is really hard to get hold of but I've seen him do some incredible things so I don't disbelieve your story for one second!


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## JennBags (28 February 2011)

I know the magic-man as well - was stunned when I saw him in action!


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## EAST KENT (28 February 2011)

Oh do tell us more ,it sounds really interesting..would`nt it be good if this guy could sort out this dangerous horse?


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## Always Blue (28 February 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Oh do tell us more ,it sounds really interesting..would`nt it be good if this guy could sort out this dangerous horse?
		
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agreed...whats to lose for 20 quid!!


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## Orangehorse (1 March 2011)

I hadn't heard of this one, but I have used a healer, with success.  I was standing in the stable with my horse and wondering why I was wasting £30 when he didn't "do" anything other than hold his hands over her.  And then she had a most amazing reaction, her eyes just rolled showing the whites, so there obviusly was something going on.  This man has also saved several horses from PTS as a last resort and has had some success with getting good racehorses that have lost their form and getting them going again. I haven't heard much about him lately, but I know the local vets were willing to give him a try when they were baffled.  He was able to pinpoint sources of pain and trouble, which were confirmed with scans and so on.


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## zoon (2 March 2011)

Glad other people have heard of John.  He did my Dad's back too - he has a bad back and COPD and the back is bit better but he can also breate a bit easier as the muscle around his back and chest are now relaxed.  Amazing little guy


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## Doormouse (2 March 2011)

ORANGEHORSE said:



			I had a mare who was "funny" in a collecting ring and I think she must have been knocked over at one stage as she couldn't bear a strange horse anywhere near her and would doge out of the way and kick out.  She also had a hatred of grey horses!  Still, her oddness was containable and she didn't do anything to put the rider in danger.  Yours sounds a much more difficult problem.
		
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I had exactly the same with my mare, even down to the hatred of grey horses!  

OP, I do feel for you, I had a horse who I tried so hard with, kept excusing him because of a bad start in life but I eventually came to realise that he was plain dangerous to me, himself and others and pts was the kindest thing.  He wasn't insured so I never had that problem to worry about.


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## TheBlack (2 March 2011)

Have you checked whether he is in pain? I am surprised you haven't even thought about it.. most horses are misunderstood he is trying to tell you something! Putting him down isn't the answer


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## LadyRascasse (2 March 2011)

zoon said:



			Didn't want to hijack post and explain, but as the post seems to have stopped now, I will explain.

The word experimental was most definately the wrong choice of word.  Possibly alternative would have been more appropriate.  Or plain weird!

I had booked the date for PTS and had given myself a week.  Someone else at my yard suggested I use her "back man".  I explained to her that my horse could not be touched and asked if her back man had a death wish?  She proceeded to explain that he was rather alternative, wouldn't need to touch the horse and was only £20 so why didn't I just ring him since my horse was a "dead man walking"

So gave him a ring and booked him to come down.  The story behind him is this -
As a younger man he was a farrier and one day was out working in a storm and was struck by lightening.  He was only lightly injured and was back to work pretty soon.  No idea how he realised it, but soon discovered he was "magnetic" since the lightening incident.  Not in the sense that spoons stuck to him, but he claims he can now manipulate tissue without physical contact.  He explained this over the phone and I thought it was worth the £20 to see how crazy this guy actually was!

So the day comes, only a couple of days before my horse is going to be PTS.  He goes into stable and stands at the opposite end from my horse who is merrily munching away at haybar looking as if nothing is wrong with him.  I warn the man not to touch him and he says he doesn't need to, stands level with his shoulders, sticks his hands out with palms facing horse and does nothing!  I stand there chuckling to myself for a moment at how crazy this man is and how crazy I am for getting him to come out until the hair on my horses shoulds stands up on end.  Gobsmacked, I watch as he moves down the stable and the hair on my horse moves with him.  The muscles under his hands (horse was about 6ft away) twitch violently and my horse seems a bit peed off to say the least - but he is not touching him.  After a while of doing this over my horse, the mucles relax and seem to pulse rhythmically with the man's hands and horse relaxes.  

The next day, horse was pretty much back to normal.  The day he is due to be PTS, I explain the vet that he is back to normal - totally normal - and will will not require his services!  Vet comes up anyway as he cannot believe it, and sure enough horse is not bothered by even the most firm manipulation.  When I told vet the story, he said he had heard some things about this man, and it may be him or it may be coincidence, but it worked and my horse is still here today, 2 years on in full work.

Told this story when it first happened and lots of people accused me of being a troll etc or simply lying, but it is true.  I am a total sceptic - hence why I got him out in the first place - for my amusement!  But my horse is better now and I really done give 2 hoots why. Not sure I belive the lightening story, but there are plenty of things out there we humans don't understand and this little man is certainly one of them!
		
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Is this John by any chance? amazing man, use him for my horses and you can see it working but people don't like anything different so quick to slate it.


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## LadyRascasse (2 March 2011)

oh to add john is only difficult to get hold of because he has 2 phones but only ever has one on at a time so it depends which number you have and what phone he has on at the time lmao!


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## ladyt25 (2 March 2011)

Ooh I like the sound of the 'magic man'! Maybe worth a shot for this horse? In respect of the original insurance question though - no you cannot claim for death if the horse is PTS due to behavioural issues. The only way you could claim for this is if the behavioural issues where due to something else (ie a brain tumour). I don't think your horse is particularly unusual though - i know a friend whose previous eventer was quite similar - fine one minute and then would just flip out and throw itself all over the place.

Maybe these horses just aren't meant for competition work or where they feel their personal space is being invaded by other horses. I know my pony cannot stand being in close proximity of other horses and he used to be very difficult in a warm up arena as he would panic if a horse came towards him or fast behind him. Not to the same extent as yours but I basically had to just make sure I was very aware of where others were and to avoid a claustrophobic type situation. It sounds like a sort of panic attack in some ways.


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## crazyhorse4727 (3 March 2011)

Hey
I can kind of see where your coming from. I have a horse who react excessively violent of unsure with other horse to the point of being very dangerous. Last show he landed on my leg and hit me against a lorry. I stopped taking to competitions completely and still he isn't a safe horse day to day rideing on his on! But still I could never get rid of him because of his character. I think mostly his problem, is he was a late starter, claustraphobia and confidence. Because he was perfect natured as a foal till I sent him to be broke. I now do all my own breaking.  I don't think will pay out what you need. But what is his temperment like outside of shows? Is there a possibilty of honestly selling on to a non competitive home?


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## Lol09 (3 March 2011)

Is there any chance of Magic John's tel no?  I would love him to look at my boy (see KS/tendon/ligament injury in veterinary).  I have him permanently on Danilon at the moment - also anyone know how to geth hold of Roy Coles.  Think similar to John ! Thanks


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## LadyRascasse (3 March 2011)

whereabouts in the country are you? he is based in sussex, if you are local pm me and i'll give you his number


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## Lol09 (4 March 2011)

Hi I'm in very sunny East Sussex! thanks


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