# Not happy!



## Patchworkpony (10 May 2017)

I'm not happy about a working cocker breeder. Reserved a bitch puppy however as soon as they are born she wants £200 deposit up front, her terms are first to send the money gets first pick of the litter. Then you can't see or choose your exact puppy until it is 4 weeks old. SO if I then go to see the litter and don't take to any of them I've lost my deposit. Hmmm - it seem an odd way to sell a dog. Both parents health tested etc. but I do hate being put under this kind of pressure. I have heard she is a bit 'canny'. I said surely it's matter of gelling with a puppy and she said that's nonsense as all pups are the same and it's the way you bring them up. What do you guys think?


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## Moobli (10 May 2017)

Personally I would walk away now!

Any breeder who thinks all puppies are the same needs to be avoided at all costs!  And that is even before I start on her reasons for putting down a deposit before you have even seen the pups, and the first to pay gets first pick of the litter ...


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## Patchworkpony (10 May 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Personally I would walk away now!

Any breeder who thinks all puppies are the same needs to be avoided at all costs!  And that is even before I start on her reasons for putting down a deposit before you have even seen the pups, and the first to pay gets first pick of the litter ...
		
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Thanks that is exactly what I thought - nice to have it confirmed though.


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## RubysGold (10 May 2017)

Run away!!  Find a better breeder! 
She is not the kind of person who I'd like to buy from, puppies are not all the same and you really do need the right dog for you, which may not be in that litter. Sounds to me like she's in it for the money not the dogs wellbeing


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## Dobiegirl (10 May 2017)

Walk away, I would not line the pockets of anyone who puts money before her puppies and her
 assertion that they are all the same.


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## paddy555 (10 May 2017)

Patchworkpony said:



			I'm not happy about a working cocker breeder. Reserved a bitch puppy however as soon as they are born she wants £200 deposit up front, her terms are first to send the money gets first pick of the litter. Then you can't see or choose your exact puppy until it is 4 weeks old. SO if I then go to see the litter and don't take to any of them I've lost my deposit. Hmmm - it seem an odd way to sell a dog. Both parents health tested etc. but I do hate being put under this kind of pressure. I have heard she is a bit 'canny'. I said surely it's matter of gelling with a puppy and she said that's nonsense as all pups are the same and it's the way you bring them up. What do you guys think?
		
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I have had to do more or less that with my forthcoming pup. I have already paid a deposit and her terms are first paid first choice. There has to be some way of people choosing their pups and this seems the fairest. I can't think of any other.   Like it or not I had no choice if I wanted one. . I checked the dog and bitch out, got to know the bitch and knew that I really wanted a pup from that mating. Plus they have other advantages for me. Mine is not a commercial breeder just an owner breeding from her one bitch. She has a waiting list for the pups. If I hadn't paid the deposit (I have 2nd choice of a bitch) then unless enough people on the waiting list pulled out I would have no chance of a pup. I don't feel under pressure, I accepted  the conditions to get what I want. I don't see any problem about gelling with a puppy. My problem will be I will have gelled with the whole lot of them!!  She also doesn't want visitors till they are 4 weeks old. My lady showed me exactly where the pups will be born, how they will be looked after and the accommodation they will move to as they grow, when visits will be allowed and how choosing will happen. This is not the bitch's first litter so she is going on what has worked for the bitch in the past. If you gel with a pup at 3 weeks say then it may well be a very different animal when it is 6 weeks.


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## CorvusCorax (10 May 2017)

Three or four weeks seems very young to pick a puppy. JMO.


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## Alec Swan (10 May 2017)

Assuming that the pups are solid colours,  recognising one from the other,  even at 8 weeks can be a bit tricky!  My last litter of Cockers were all solid Liver coloured,  and eventually I had to take them back to the vet,  re-scan them to check the chip numbers,  then each one wore a brightly coloured velcro collar.  It was chaos!

Considering the question of asking for a deposit,  I never do it and perhaps I should.  Many have 'phoned and asked for a pup to be reserved and that's the last that I hear of them!  It's never really mattered because I generally keep what's left and start them off.  There is also more than a grain of truth in that the pup will be what you make of it and it's really only at about 12-14 weeks onwards that any pup will display any form of future character traits.  'Selecting' pups at 6-8 weeks and with any degree of certainty,  is simply impossible,  I believe.

If they're work bred,  I'd check that they've been docked.  If they haven't then there may well be no intention of breeding a litter of pups and for them to go in to work,  eventually,  and it may just be a breeder jumping on the 'working' band wagon.  Also,  and it's important,  there are those WC which are prone to having shot-jaws,  so again,  not at 4 weeks but upon collection,  check for a clean bite.

Do you know of the KC names of the parents?  If you do,  PM if you prefer,  and I may be able to tell you a bit more about them.  From what you say,  it sounds to be fairly above board.  If you do pay a deposit,  be certain that if any flaws develop in the period before selection and collection,  that the deposit will be returned.

Alec.


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## Clodagh (10 May 2017)

I paid a deposit for Pen, but only after she was born and we had met the whole litter, we didn't know which was ours at that point.
I didn't pay a deposit for the other two, mainly I think as the breeder wanted first dibs both times and had a long enough waiting list that selling was not an issue or a rush.


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## Moobli (10 May 2017)

I wouldn't have an issue paying a deposit once I had met the pups, even if I hadn't yet decided which pup I wanted (I prefer to choose around 6-7 weeks).


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## Clodagh (10 May 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			I wouldn't have an issue paying a deposit once I had met the pups, even if I hadn't yet decided which pup I wanted (I prefer to choose around 6-7 weeks).
		
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Absolutely the same here.


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## MotherOfChickens (10 May 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			And that is even before I start on her reasons for putting down a deposit before you have even seen the pups, and the first to pay gets first pick of the litter ...
		
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ok, I'd not put a deposit down on a pup I hadnt seen but many pups are sold by first viewer to get there and pay a deposit, gets first pick (assuming neither breeder wants it) dont they so not sure how that is much different? Quarrie's breeder operated that way-all had gone bar three boys when I got there (this was at 6 weeks), I picked one, the next person took the next and he took the last. He bred because he wanted another GR to work-he's not breeding again for the foreseeable-so he's not churning out lots of pups for profit.


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## Patchworkpony (10 May 2017)

I just object to paying a deposit on pups I can't even see until they are four weeks old. I would like to see what they are like, how they are kept and how well they look before I pay money to someone I have never even met.


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## Moobli (10 May 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			ok, I'd not put a deposit down on a pup I hadnt seen but many pups are sold by first viewer to get there and pay a deposit, gets first pick (assuming neither breeder wants it) dont they so not sure how that is much different? Quarrie's breeder operated that way-all had gone bar three boys when I got there (this was at 6 weeks), I picked one, the next person took the next and he took the last. He bred because he wanted another GR to work-he's not breeding again for the foreseeable-so he's not churning out lots of pups for profit.
		
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Hmm yeah, see what you mean.  I was thinking along the lines of prospective puppy owners passing an interrogation first and then going on a waiting list, then going down the list first come, first served (if that makes sense) - but I can see how first payment, first choice could also work so long as I was happy with all the people on the waiting list


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## Alec Swan (10 May 2017)

Patchworkpony said:



			I just object to paying a deposit on pups I can't even see until they are four weeks old. I would like to see what they are like, how they are kept and how well they look before I pay money to someone I have never even met.
		
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Then go and look (I wouldn't buy a pup unseen either) and if you're happy,  having decided dog or bitch,  check all of that gender,  enquire how many are spoken for,  ask what's left,  make a decision,  then pay your deposit and return at 7-8 weeks.  If the breeder's keeping them to 8 weeks and you take yours a few days early,  then you'll be more likely to get the one that you want!

nb:  Mostly breeders will tell you that they ALWAYS keep pups back until 8 weeks.  The truth of the matter is that most are glad to see the back of them a week early! 

Alec.


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## Moobli (10 May 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Then go and look (I wouldn't buy a pup unseen either) and if you're happy,  having decided dog or bitch,  check all of that gender,  enquire how many are spoken for,  ask what's left,  make a decision,  then pay your deposit and return at 7-8 weeks.  If the breeder's keeping them to 8 weeks and you take yours a few days early,  then you'll be more likely to get the one that you want!

nb:  Mostly breeders will tell you that they ALWAYS keep pups back until 8 weeks.  The truth of the matter is that most are glad to see the back of them a week early! 

Alec.
		
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Sorry to contradict you yet again (!) but there are plans to tighten up laws around selling and breeding dogs which will make it completely illegal to sell puppies younger than eight weeks.  Does anyone actually know if this law is now in place?


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## Clodagh (10 May 2017)

Pen was the first pup that I haven't had at 7 weeks, I don't know if it was her breeders preference or the law but I would say from my limited puppy purchasing that historically 7 weeks was the norm, when we were children it was 6. Yes that will have to change now.


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## Alec Swan (10 May 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Sorry to contradict you yet again (!) but there are plans to tighten up laws around selling and breeding dogs which will make it completely illegal to sell puppies younger than eight weeks.  Does anyone actually know if this law is now in place?
		
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So it seems that you aren't sure,  but offer a contradiction just the same!  No change there then!

There are no Laws extant which prevent the sale of a puppy under the age of 8 weeks.

Alec.


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## Patchworkpony (10 May 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Then go and look (I wouldn't buy a pup unseen either) and if you're happy,  having decided dog or bitch,  check all of that gender,  enquire how many are spoken for,  ask what's left,  make a decision,  then pay your deposit and return at 7-8 weeks.  If the breeder's keeping them to 8 weeks and you take yours a few days early,  then you'll be more likely to get the one that you want!

nb:  Mostly breeders will tell you that they ALWAYS keep pups back until 8 weeks.  The truth of the matter is that most are glad to see the back of them a week early! 

Alec.
		
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 The point is Alec you don't get to even see the pups until you have paid a deposit first. Nice breeding etc. BUT I feel this is more about the money than the right home.


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## Alec Swan (10 May 2017)

Patchworkpony said:



			The point is Alec you don't get to even see the pups until you have paid a deposit first. Nice breeding etc. BUT I feel this is more about the money than the right home.
		
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If the breeder won't let you see the pups until you've paid a deposit,  then that would be the end of it for me.  What's 'nice breeding'?  Do you know?  It's always about the money with most breeders,  what ever they may tell you!

Alec.


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## Patchworkpony (10 May 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			If the breeder won't let you see the pups until you've paid a deposit,  then that would be the end of it for me.  What's 'nice breeding'?  Do you know?  It's always about the money with most breeders,  what ever they may tell you!

Alec.
		
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 Thanks Alec I have PM you.


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## Moobli (10 May 2017)

*****


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## Clodagh (10 May 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			So it seems that you aren't sure,  but offer a contradiction just the same!  No change there then!

There are no Laws extant which prevent the sale of a puppy under the age of 8 weeks.

Alec.
		
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I am sure there now are.


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## MurphysMinder (10 May 2017)

I sometimes had people offering to pay a deposit before they had been to see pups,  but I would never take them,  and in fact often didn't take  deposit even after pups had been viewed.  I certainly wouldn't be happy if I was asked to pay a deposit before even seeing a pup.
With regards to puppies going at 8 weeks,  I don't know if it is law but certainly if you are a KC Accredited Breeder you are not allowed to let puppies go until 8 weeks old.


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## paddy555 (10 May 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Hmm yeah, see what you mean.  I was thinking along the lines of prospective puppy owners passing an interrogation first and then going on a waiting list, then going down the list first come, first served (if that makes sense) - but I can see how first payment, first choice could also work so long as I was happy with all the people on the waiting list 

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that is what we have done. I wouldn't call it an interrogation but we satisfied ourselves re the paperwork, bitch, health  and how she was kept, terms of sale etc and the lady had a couple of hours of our company during which we realised we had both worked for the same employer and both done identical obedience classes with our earlier related shepherds so we hit it off. I suspect many people could say they were interested , go on a waiting list and then back out. Others who had then heard of the waiting list of say 10 could well have given up even though they were serious. A deposit certainly focused our interest. 

WGSD, I heard about the 8 weeks recently on the news. I don't think it is law as yet but it was going to be proposed.


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## Amymay (10 May 2017)

The 8 weeks is currently proposed but soon to be legislated.


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## Cinnamontoast (10 May 2017)

8 weeks is mad across the board when many bitches will have weaned off the pups by rejecting them possibly weeks earlier. 

I wouldn't give a deposit with an unseen litter. Is she telling you she'll just pick a random pup? That would definitely make me walk, mostly cos she can't have a clue thinking all pups are the same. I want to choose both next time so we don't get another Zak! He's utterly adorable but hard work and we knew this when we picked him. They were 9 weeks and characters were evident.


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## Alec Swan (10 May 2017)

Clodagh said:



			I am sure there now are.
		
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I suppose that the litmus test would be if you're prepared to agree to a £100 wager that here in the UK there are no laws which prevent the sale of a puppy under the age of 8 weeks.  Do we have a deal? 

Alec.


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## sarah.oxford (10 May 2017)

My thought is that if it's all about the money, then it's probably not the right breeder, although that would be something that each buyer would have to decide for themselves.
Also, why would a breeder want to take deposits before they have met the potential owners? I don't know many people that breed, but those I do know are incredibly fussy - as they should be, because they want to find the right owners that will give the pup a great life, as they always expect to take a pup back at any age if it doesn't work out, so it is in everyone's interest to get it right first time. I know the interrogation stage is often by phone, or email, and many months earlier than the visit to see the pups, but sometimes people seem ok and then ...... well , sometimes they are just not what is expected. 
But if this litter is exactly what you want as far as breeding, health tests etc, then it may be a risk worth taking.
Not that I'm an expert having only had other people's unwanted dogs at over a year old, but when we did a lot of and ringcraft classes, you get to hear about these things and how the really good breeders get homes they are happy with. The ones I've chatted with have been much more focused on getting it right, and the money is far down the list of priorities.


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## blackcob (10 May 2017)

Being pedantic... Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999 - the keeper of a licensed breeding establishment is guilty of an offence if he sells a dog which is less than eight weeks old, other than to the keeper of a licensed pet shop. 

The new regulations haven't been enacted yet to be fair, still being drafted: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-plans-to-crack-down-on-backstreet-puppy-breeders


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## CorvusCorax (10 May 2017)

No offence but in my own experience those who let dogs go at six or seven weeks usually just want to save money.
In my own breed 8 or 9 weeks is best. The dogs that have come before me, who were sold at six weeks, have been very clingy, handler dependent and with no independence of their own even at six or seven years old. I appreciate that may be breed specific and not a lot of people may care.


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## Cinnamontoast (10 May 2017)

I think it must surely depend on the individual. Brig and Jake came to us at 7 weeks. They were very independent dogs, checking back on walks, not too fussed re cuddles etc. Youngsters came to us at 9 weeks, they are ridiculously bonded, soppy, must be with the humans. There must be a massive nod to nurture as well as nature, though. 

I think there's a socialisation window between 6-8 weeks and I believe it's very important to have a puppy before that window closes.


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## CorvusCorax (10 May 2017)

I did say, in my own experience and in my own breed


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## Alec Swan (11 May 2017)

cinnamontoast said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. 

I think there's a socialisation window between 6-8 weeks and I believe it's very important to have a puppy before that window closes.
		
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Not always so,  in my limited experience.  I like pups which have stayed with their siblings for up to 12-14 weeks.  The bond-transfer and the switch-over between the pack that they've lived in and their relationship with me has always been somehow simpler.  It mostly takes a day or so and they always seem to look to form an attachment.

I suppose that we employ the system in which we have confidence.  Providing that we manage to achieve a bonding,  I'm not too sure that it really matters much how we go about it.

Alec.


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## Clodagh (11 May 2017)

blackcob said:



			Being pedantic... Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999 - the keeper of a licensed breeding establishment is guilty of an offence if he sells a dog which is less than eight weeks old, other than to the keeper of a licensed pet shop. 

The new regulations haven't been enacted yet to be fair, still being drafted: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-plans-to-crack-down-on-backstreet-puppy-breeders

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Will that be near enough Alec? Will pass on the bet though, I don't even bet on racehorses!


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## MotherOfChickens (11 May 2017)

In my very limited experience I prefer pups to be a little older-comparing mine to other pups who were taken home at 6 weeks they are better behaved with other dogs, easier to house train and I've never had problems with overly mouthy pups-the ones at 6 weeks have always seemed a bit too mouthy for me although I accept that just could be owners! Setter was 12 weeks, Q was 10 weeks (breeder wouldnt let them go before 8 weeks, information which he volunteered!). I also think its important that they are in the house as pups though.


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## Moobli (11 May 2017)

It is really interesting reading about others criteria and experiences.  I am a strong believer in genetics being the single most important factor in deciding the final temperament of a dog.  It is therefore important to me to get as much information as possible about the parents, grandparents, ggrandparents and previous offspring if possible.  

Socialisation and habituation of course have an important place in the rearing of a puppy and is something that should be undertaken in an intelligent and patient fashion and I would much rather this has started in the breeder's home or kennels (I don't mind a kennel reared pup at all) than waiting until the pup comes to me - so things like car trips, different surfaces and noises should have already been introduced, some interaction with older (friendly) dogs etc etc.  The last "pup" I had was 8 months when he came to me, having lived in a working kennel up to that point and had started some foundation training (in bitework) and been taken on car trips and met other friendly dogs in the kennel.  He still had a lot to learn about the world but was confident and inquisitive (as his genetics programmed him for) and instead of just introducing new positive experiences, I experimented in a different technique I had seen done by a working dog trainer.  I built up his already strong focus and drive for his favourite toy and then started to play with and do short bursts of training (with his toy as a reward) in a load of different environments.  So he was aware of other dogs, traffic, people, horses, bikes, sheep etc etc on the periphery of his vision but he was more interested in the game we were playing to take a whole lot of notice.  It worked a treat - and whether that is because he already had a genetically strong temperament I don't know, but I will definitely be employing the same tactics with any future pups.


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## MotherOfChickens (11 May 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			It is really interesting reading about others criteria and experiences.  I am a strong believer in genetics being the single most important factor in deciding the final temperament of a dog.  It is therefore important to me to get as much information as possible about the parents, grandparents, ggrandparents and previous offspring if possible.  

Socialisation and habituation of course have an important place in the rearing of a puppy and is something that should be undertaken in an intelligent and patient fashion and I would much rather this has started in the breeder's home or kennels (I don't mind a kennel reared pup at all) than waiting until the pup comes to me - so things like car trips, different surfaces and noises should have already been introduced, some interaction with older (friendly) dogs etc etc.  The last "pup" I had was 8 months when he came to me, having lived in a working kennel up to that point and had started some foundation training (in bitework) and been taken on car trips and met other friendly dogs in the kennel.  He still had a lot to learn about the world but was confident and inquisitive (as his genetics programmed him for) and instead of just introducing new positive experiences, I experimented in a different technique I had seen done by a working dog trainer.  I built up his already strong focus and drive for his favourite toy and then started to play with and do short bursts of training (with his toy as a reward) in a load of different environments.  So he was aware of other dogs, traffic, people, horses, bikes, sheep etc etc on the periphery of his vision but he was more interested in the game we were playing to take a whole lot of notice.  It worked a treat - and whether that is because he already had a genetically strong temperament I don't know, but I will definitely be employing the same tactics with any future pups.
		
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certainly getting a kennel kept pup at 7 months has been interesting for me. Fitz was in the house as a young pup and then kept in kennels. He really didnt have much life experience at all and I appreciated that moving in with me would be quite mind blowing for him. There are things that he has picked up quickly and others we have struggled with (which could be down to me-I am not a dog trainer). Some of the ones he's picked up quickly I think could be a breed thing, focus was difficult mainly due to his being over his threshold but being very stoic about it. Taking him to different classes and concentrating on the things within those classes was what brought him around.


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## Kaylum (12 May 2017)

I wouldn't want to put a deposit down on any animal you haven't seen and also you need to see the mother and the conditions they are kept in. There is a lot more than just meeting and choosing a pup. I would be unhappy as well.


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## Patchworkpony (12 May 2017)

I've told the breeder thanks but no thanks - it didn't feel right. Thanks everyone for confirming what I had decided to do.


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## MotherOfChickens (12 May 2017)

I dont blame you, disappointing though  good luck finding another one.


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## Patchworkpony (12 May 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I dont blame you, disappointing though  good luck finding another one.
		
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 Thank you - better disappointed now than forever.


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## Moobli (12 May 2017)

Sensible decision I think.  Good luck in finding another litter which fits your requirements.


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## Kaylum (12 May 2017)

Yes agree with you decision x


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## gunnergundog (12 May 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			It is really interesting reading about others criteria and experiences.  I am a strong believer in genetics being the single most important factor in deciding the final temperament of a dog.  It is therefore important to me to get as much information as possible about the parents, grandparents, ggrandparents and previous offspring if possible.  

Socialisation and habituation of course have an important place in the rearing of a puppy and is something that should be undertaken in an intelligent and patient fashion and I would much rather this has started in the breeder's home or kennels (I don't mind a kennel reared pup at all) than waiting until the pup comes to me - so things like car trips, different surfaces and noises should have already been introduced, some interaction with older (friendly) dogs etc etc.  The last "pup" I had was 8 months when he came to me, having lived in a working kennel up to that point and had started some foundation training (in bitework) and been taken on car trips and met other friendly dogs in the kennel.  He still had a lot to learn about the world but was confident and inquisitive (as his genetics programmed him for) and instead of just introducing new positive experiences, I experimented in a different technique I had seen done by a working dog trainer.  I built up his already strong focus and drive for his favourite toy and then started to play with and do short bursts of training (with his toy as a reward) in a load of different environments.  So he was aware of other dogs, traffic, people, horses, bikes, sheep etc etc on the periphery of his vision but he was more interested in the game we were playing to take a whole lot of notice.  It worked a treat - and whether that is because he already had a genetically strong temperament I don't know, but I will definitely be employing the same tactics with any future pups.
		
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I have recently taken on a 5 month old pup that didn't have the best start in life.  I took him (along with an oldie nannie) to a place that is rarely frequented by anyone as his first foray off my own land.  I was a bit p'eed off to see a pick up parked there with something in the back that was barking for Britain. 

Anyway, got my two out, let them have a pee and a sniff, put the oldie back in and started doing some lead work, went around the corner of the field and WOW!  To cut very long story short, the guy had a 13 week old mal by a renowned 12 year old dutch sire that is apparently very famous.  (Meant ****** all to me as know nothing about the breed.)  The focus that pup had on his ball and his handler was unreal.  Apparently this guy sells dogs back to the police force abroad;  he did say what it was he competes in - wasn't Schutzhund/IPO/Working Trials....think it was an anacronym with a 'k' in it.  Anyone any ideas? 

His family pet (Rottie x American Bulldog), which was the bark machine in the back of his pick up, was pretty special too.  He gave me a demo of some scent work with it that would have put a few dogs on some of the local shoots to shame.  

Call me a stalker but I am going back there next time I get some spare time to see what I can glean to my advantage.  (Unfortunately, this is a place I used to live in and was just visiting.)


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## CorvusCorax (12 May 2017)

NVBK or KNPV.


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## gunnergundog (12 May 2017)

Thank you for that!  Am off to have a google and will let you know when I next intercept him.  God!  Am becoming a stalker at my age! 

Being a born cynic I tend to filter out what people tell me and just watch the dogs and see what they say. Consequently, I only unfortunately registered a tenth of what this guy said....there was something about doing search work with fireworks being let off that I remember if that helps narrow it down at all.


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## Moobli (12 May 2017)

Sounds like a cracking pup.  Would love to see that Gunnergundog.  KNPV and NVBK are fantastic to watch and I would be really interested to know which he competes in.  There are so few (if any) opportunities for this kind of training in the UK.  A friend of mine used to travel to the continent to compete in KNPV.

Michael Ellis (dog trainer extraordinaire) has this to say about the different sports.

KNPV 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsgZUltKQS8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdrkxfN0Mxk

NVBK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQEJ_Jl_tws


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## gunnergundog (13 May 2017)

Very educational! Many thanks for posting those links. Am slowly working my way through all the other Michael Ellis videos I can find.  Think I may be becoming addicted - it's fascinating.


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## Moobli (13 May 2017)

gunnergundog said:



			Very educational! Many thanks for posting those links. Am slowly working my way through all the other Michael Ellis videos I can find.  Think I may be becoming addicted - it's fascinating.
		
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I think he is an exceptionally talented dog trainer - and although I don't agree with everything he says (or some of the tools he uses) I always learn something new from watching him and would love to be as good a dog trainer as he is.  I am a Michael Ellis groupie


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