# Facebook footage of welsh stud delivering youngstock to abattoir



## Frumpoon (20 October 2020)

Did any one else see this?

It was on the BSJA page until it was pulled

I will admit to being very, very disturbed...😢


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## Polos Mum (20 October 2020)

I can only assume there was more to the story (maybe injured / sick in some way the video doesn't show). The horse market is still strong I'm surprised that a stud couldn't get more for them than the abattoir would pay


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## ester (20 October 2020)

It was on one of the dodgy dealer pages too. 
I was mostly just amazed how many people didn't seem to know this happened.


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## Goldenstar (20 October 2020)

Over breeding .... what do people think happens to them .


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## shortstuff99 (20 October 2020)

I believe from what I had read that it was surplus stock, and happens reasonably regularly I don't know if that's true however. 

As someone who doesn't eat meat, I don't get why this is a tragedy and killing lambs is not?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (20 October 2020)

There are a number of studs who will send colts to be despatched if they havent placed them, not everyone can keep or wants to keep colts on.
I did see the clip. The women screeching who were filming were very aggressive.


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## TheMule (20 October 2020)

Some people honestly believe the alternative of a life of passing through low end dealers/ sales is better. Life at any cost.
I don’t like it when such young ones go through, but these ponies were in good condition, have clearly had a nice start and have had a very quick end. They are the lucky ones IMO


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## windand rain (20 October 2020)

Zoo meat foals I expect. It is so sad and even bin end markets are not running never mind the good ones so it is awful the stud name is section a so guess not much market for under 12hh at maturity pony foals colts selling for £5 are better off in the lion than in someones garden or garage. Shame is there are not a lot more local abbatoirs.  Free gelding might help but I doubt it


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## ester (20 October 2020)

Oh also I enjoyed 'they've probably rented the mares out for orphaned foals' 
orphaned foals, at the end of October, yup seems likely (section As of course being an ideal size as fosters. . . )


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## Polos Mum (20 October 2020)

I am definitely in the naïve camp then if this is an every year occurrence for some studs. I'm surprised it makes economic sense to keep the mare and provide even basic care through pregnancy just to get meat money if they are colts. 
It's not a tragedy and it certainly isn't the worst that could happen - it just seems all a little pointless. If they couldn't sell them this year - when horses are in such demand, then why breed at all?


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## sharni (20 October 2020)

what I disagree with is them being sent to the slaughter house instead of being PTS at home.


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## ester (20 October 2020)

I think more normally they hit the sales and go for whatever, but as they aren't happening the process is more direct.

While ridden horses are in demand this year I am not sure untrained section A youngsters are in more demand than normal?


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## Lammy (20 October 2020)

Polos Mum said:



			I am definitely in the naïve camp then if this is an every year occurrence for some studs. I'm surprised it makes economic sense to keep the mare and provide even basic care through pregnancy just to get meat money if they are colts. 
It's not a tragedy and it certainly isn't the worst that could happen - it just seems all a little pointless. If they couldn't sell them this year - when horses are in such demand, then why breed at all?
		
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I’m in the same boat as you. I can understand this year being especially hard financially and could see that this is at least a secure end for them and the owner gets a bit of money for them.

But if this is happening year on year then people shouldn’t be breeding. We bemoan travellers doing the same thing, overbreeding to waste and while these people may be seeing it through to the end it really is no better. And if the issue is that they’re colts...well. If you can’t afford to geld after weaning then you definitely shouldn’t be breeding.

And as much as logically it’s the better place for them to end up than knee deep in filth or abandoned half dead, it is still emotive to see foals end up at an abattoir.


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## cumbriamax (20 October 2020)

A few years ago a friend of mine got some section A fillies at a local horse sale, they had been bred in Wales brought to Cumbria for auction. She got them as they didn't sell in auction and the sellers had left them and were halfway back home and weren't coming back for them. So being taken to slaughter house saves them from this fate, friend was able to take them home keep them and handle and eventually start them before selling them but I wonder who ended up with the rest.


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## Nasicus (20 October 2020)

sharni said:



			what I disagree with is them being sent to the slaughter house instead of being PTS at home.
		
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Forgive me for putting my logical hat on for a moment here, it's a very emotive subject and I don't mean to dismiss that.
However, assuming they're going for meat, you want them to be processed as soon as possible after death. Bodies tend to get mank pretty quickly if not quickly processed or put into cold storage. I can imagine having them shot at home would mean the meat might not be usable by the time it's made it's way to the abattoir. At that point, the breeder would be paying to have them put down and hauled off for disposal, as opposed to getting a least something back in the form of meat money.


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## Spottyappy (20 October 2020)

sharni said:



			what I disagree with is them being sent to the slaughter house instead of being PTS at home.
		
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 Sadly, this is not an economical option. The cost of pts by injection plus carcass removal will be in excess of £1000. The knackerman is about £100 here, but I imagine sending to slaughter means the dealer either doesn’t pay or doesn’t pay that much. In days gone by, you would be paid by the slaughter house but I don’t think that happens now a days for horses.


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## cumbriamax (20 October 2020)

Lammy said:



			I’m in the same boat as you. I can understand this year being especially hard financially and could see that this is at least a secure end for them and the owner gets a bit of money for them.

But if this is happening year on year then people shouldn’t be breeding. We bemoan travellers doing the same thing, overbreeding to waste and while these people may be seeing it through to the end it really is no better. And if the issue is that they’re colts...well. If you can’t afford to geld after weaning then you definitely shouldn’t be breeding.

And as much as logically it’s the better place for them to end up than knee deep in filth or abandoned half dead, it is still emotive to see foals end up at an abattoir.


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Absolutely this. There is so much press about cobs being over bred. Wonder if there's any way that WPCS could reduce the number being bred, inspect mares and only breed from premium mares or something, would be night on impossible though I think.
I know a few old school breeders who bred right through the years where demand was low, it seems ingrained in some people that the mares must be breeding every year.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (20 October 2020)

These ponies mothers were out in foal a year before Covid hit. I see no reason for the hate this video has produced. They are going for meat, better that than starving, being abused, passed from pillar to post etc. There are no sales For these Ponies to go to this year, many studs are running at a loss, haven’t put their stallions back in or are selling off their stock as gone bust.

I think we are very hypocritical in this country, we eat beef, lamb, chicken etc but the thought of a horse going for meat is horrendous. People have no right to be assaulting studs for actually being responsible and disposing of excess stock.

This post won’t make me popular but the reality of the situation is if they cannot sell them and they cannot feed them then what  else are they supposed to do with them? Covid has a lot to answer for this year.


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## maggie62 (20 October 2020)

I just find the situation heartless.....Well known breeder nuturing her stock, how can you just treat them like trash because they are the wrong sex. I may be an old sentimental fool but this disturbs me.


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## Mule (20 October 2020)

It is interesting that the travellers get all the flack when studs are at the same thing. People love to complain about them.


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## windand rain (20 October 2020)

Thing is it is pretty much an annual occurence happens after all moorland drifts the land needs the ponies but the ponies are pretty worthless. Mares are kept pregnant as the herds are established. Think a lot of effort has gone into trying to improve the quality but without the market for meat it would be a welfare nightmare. Good sales held sales with minimum prices but that didnt help much as the ones not reaching minimum were unsold and sent home or sent to slaughter. If we valued horsemeat more their value would increase and cobs and drift ponies alike could give a return so not end up starved to death at the side of the road


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## Ceriann (20 October 2020)

This is an emotive subject.  Appreciating there may well be a fate worse than a quick despatch at a properly run slaughterhouse, these horses are not bred for this.  These foals are a by product of a commercial enterprise that treats animals as commodities.  The fact it happens in farming etc doesn’t make this (in my view) acceptable.  Rationalising this on the basis that there are people out there that would treat them very badly if they weren’t dealt with in this way says a lot about how we value animals.  It happens but that doesn’t make it right.


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## Elf On A Shelf (20 October 2020)

There are fates worse than death BUT 

What right did this woman have filming them? Screaching at them and now creating a hate campaign against them!? They will be hard put by to sell next years stock now as everyone knows the stud name and won't touch them - or it will go the other way and everyone will snap them up for the next couple of years to "save them".


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## Roasted Chestnuts (20 October 2020)

So for all of those saying that they shouldn’t be sent for slaughter the question is what to do with them?

Outwith the statement of shouldn’t been bred at all etc, that ship has sailed, they are here now. What does the breeder do with them? Can’t keep them, can’t run them on, perhaps can’t sell them/give them away, vet dispatch is very costly (I know I’ve done it) , So what to do with them?


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## Cloball (20 October 2020)

ester said:



			I think more normally they hit the sales and go for whatever, but as they aren't happening the process is more direct.

While ridden horses are in demand this year I am not sure untrained section A youngsters are in more demand than normal?
		
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There are Welsh sales happening online I have seen at least 4 so far and one WPCS sale last weekend I think a Brecon sale next week. They do seem to have been cobbled together quite quickly and will require people to supply videos etc. So maybe that has put people off.


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## Lammy (20 October 2020)

windand rain said:



			Thing is it is pretty much an annual occurence happens after all moorland drifts the land needs the ponies but the ponies are pretty worthless. Mares are kept pregnant as the herds are established. Think a lot of effort has gone into trying to improve the quality but without the market for meat it would be a welfare nightmare. Good sales held sales with minimum prices but that didnt help much as the ones not reaching minimum were unsold and sent home or sent to slaughter. If we valued horsemeat more their value would increase and cobs and drift ponies alike could give a return so not end up starved to death at the side of the road
		
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I do think the moorland ponies are slightly different as they are there mainly for an environmental purpose nobody is really trying to make money off of them through breeding. However, I think if they really wanted to reduce the number of youngstock coming off the moors then there are ways they could do that.

Also I don’t really think creating a market for horse meat is a viable or sustainable option either. We’re already globally reducing the amount of meat we as a species consume and that amount will keep falling. Creating another source is not the answer. Overbreeding is the problem and not just for horses. But tackling that problem costs money and a lot of organisations just won’t or can’t afford to even start to address the issues.


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## honetpot (20 October 2020)

These ponies looking at the trailer came from the,http://www.springbourne-blanche.com/frameset.html, looking at the web address on the trailer.
The normal outlet for the foals are the WPCS, sales that were cancelled. They are better off killed quickly, but a business model that has ponies as a crop, the Welsh breeders have been doing for years erks me, too many ponies bred, which are often not suited as childrens riding ponies.
  Lets hope the mares have not run with the stallion this year, but it's saved them their keep, and the passport fee, at least they are not dumped on the Welsh commons.

Its all over FB, and the M&M people know. A lot of M&M breeders cut down about four years ago and as a result the prices for youngstock of other breeds are really good, often sold without advertising.


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## Elf On A Shelf (20 October 2020)

The foals are registered I do believe and have been advertised for sale through out summer from about 2 months old but clearly there was no market for them else they would have been bought already.


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## Equi (20 October 2020)

The difference between the studs and the travellers is the studs actually do care where they end up and would not want them standing in a field wasting away (literally) because they didn’t have a home to go to, then dumping the bodies. In a fluffy world they would all have a little girl to love them after she’s saved all her pocket money for the sales, but this is reality. 

 Yes it’s sad, yes we don’t want to see horses in these situations because we are horse lovers, but the bigger picture is that they won’t have a life of suffering. They haven’t just sent them off cause that’s where the money is, it’s definitely not and they’ve likely made a massive loss in each of these animals - but this is the only way (after failing to sell at sales etc) they can garunteed not have a bad future. if studs kept every foal that didn’t sell they wouldn’t have the money to breed any more and then the breed would eventually die out. Much like the Suffolk and shires etc who simply don’t have a job (there for a market) anymore so barely anyone breeds them.


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## luckyoldme (20 October 2020)

This is where my brain and heart fall out with each other.
I know its the only way but it makes me so sad.
The other morning when i was refuelling I saw a cattle wagon.  I tried to force myself not to look but in the end I made eye contact. It makes me so sad. Still not sad enough to go vegetarian though.


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## Amymay (20 October 2020)

Practicalities aside, how totally heartbreaking.


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## Bernster (20 October 2020)

luckyoldme said:



			This is where my brain and heart fall out with each other.
I know its the only way but it makes me so sad.
The other morning when i was refuelling I saw a cattle wagon.  I tried to force myself not to look but in the end I made eye contact. It makes me so sad. Still not sad enough to go vegetarian though.
		
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This is where my head is at. I wish we were set up in a way that meant this didn’t happen.  And I really wish and hope that whatever end they meet, it is not stressful and painful, but I suspect this is naive.  I am eating less meat though, and it was because i drove past a cattle meat lorry earlier this year.


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## meleeka (20 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			So for all of those saying that they shouldn’t be sent for slaughter the question is what to do with them?

Outwith the statement of shouldn’t been bred at all etc, that ship has sailed, they are here now. What does the breeder do with them? Can’t keep them, can’t run them on, perhaps can’t sell them/give them away, vet dispatch is very costly (I know I’ve done it) , So what to do with them?
		
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It’s a business that presumably makes money so it’s not as if they don’t have the means to keep them until they can sell them on.  If they’d have been female that’s probably what they would have done.  Would it really be that expensive to keep them in a field with forage or geld theM ready to sell in the spring?  I bet this stud will still have plenty of foals born next year and the year after and the excess will be bought by a meat man at a sale. N  
Breeding ponies shouldn’t be undertaken unless a future for them  is more than likely.  Breeding from a horse just because it has a womb is something that happens and that’s just wrong imo.


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## shirl62 (20 October 2020)

I for one was very distressed at the video seeing these little babies unloading into the slaughter house. There was no information regarding whether these little ones had the chance to be sold or even given away...I know some might say they might have ended up abused/starved etc but there are plenty of horse people who could have given these babies a good home ...My sis and I would have had them had we known.. A friend local to us breeds sec A's and has no trouble selling them even during this Covid time...I know I sometimes think with my heart, but this is the person I am and are not ashamed of it...A fair amount of tears have been shed this evening...


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## Roasted Chestnuts (20 October 2020)

meleeka said:



			It’s a business that presumably makes money so it’s not as if they don’t have the means to keep them until they can sell them on.  If they’d have been female that’s probably what they would have done.  Would it really be that expensive to keep them in a field with forage or geld theM ready to sell in the spring?  I bet this stud will still have plenty of foals born next year and the year after and the excess will be bought by a meat man at a sale. N 
Breeding ponies shouldn’t be undertaken unless a future for them  is more than likely.  Breeding from a horse just because it has a womb is something that happens and that’s just wrong imo.
		
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That’s not answering the question. Running on takes money, everyone is struggling this year. They would need passporting, chipping, gelding isn’t cheap either. If they had gone to a sales and then went to the meat man this wouldn’t have been an issue. Excess stock needs to go somewhere.

Ruining someones livelihood, name etc over actually being responsible is not acceptable. Many people feel the same about people Selling on older horses, people say better going to the bullet etc. This is the same.

I agree there is too much breeding but these ponies were conceived before the world went to hell in a hand basket.


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## Elf On A Shelf (20 October 2020)

shirl62 said:



			I for one was very distressed at the video seeing these little babies unloading into the slaughter house. There was no information regarding whether these little ones had the chance to be sold or even given away...I know some might say they might have ended up abused/starved etc but there are plenty of horse people who could have given these babies a good home ...My sis and I would have had them had we known.. A friend local to us breeds sec A's and has no trouble selling them even during this Covid time...I know I sometimes think with my heart, but this is the person I am and are not ashamed of it...A fair amount of tears have been shed this evening...
		
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All 3 have been for sale since 2 months old and have not been bought. 

The people and their studs page have been bullied off Facebook.


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## YorksG (20 October 2020)

One reason for keeping  section a mares in foal is that it reduces the risk of laminitis. It is the natural state for mares to carry a foal while she has one at foot.


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## meleeka (20 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			That’s not answering the question. Running on takes money, everyone is struggling this year. They would need passporting, chipping, gelding isn’t cheap either. If they had gone to a sales and then went to the meat man this wouldn’t have been an issue. Excess stock needs to go somewhere.

Ruining someones livelihood, name etc over actually being responsible is not acceptable. Many people feel the same about people Selling on older horses, people say better going to the bullet etc. This is the same.

I agree there is too much breeding but these ponies were conceived before the world went to hell in a hand basket.
		
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It’s very generous  of you to blame Covid, but this has likely been happening for years.  It’s strange  that none of the excess were fillies.  It wouldn’t be of course, because they can make their owner money on account of having a womb.  It’s a sad world where only native ponies that can breed have any value, to just continue the cycle of breeding just because we can.
Having bred the ponies in the first place, the stud should have contingency plans for having more colts than mares.  There’s a 50% chance of it after all.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (20 October 2020)

meleeka said:



			It’s very generous  of you to blame Covid, but this has likely been happening for years.  It’s strange  that none of the excess were fillies.  It wouldn’t be of course, because they can make their owner money on account of having a womb.  It’s a sad world where only native ponies that can breed have any value, to just continue the cycle of breeding just because we can.
Having bred the ponies in the first place, the stud should have contingency plans for having more colts than mares.  There’s a 50% chance of it after all.
		
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Again not answering the question of what to do with them right now. That’s my question, they are bred to be sold, they don’t sell, so what to do with them?

Can go round and round in circles over ‘could have would have should have’ but what to do with them other than send them to the meat man, if they had gone to the sales then to the meat man would you feel better?


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## honetpot (20 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			That’s not answering the question. Running on takes money, everyone is struggling this year. They would need passporting, chipping, gelding isn’t cheap either. If they had gone to a sales and then went to the meat man this wouldn’t have been an issue. Excess stock needs to go somewhere.

Ruining someones livelihood, name etc over actually being responsible is not acceptable. Many people feel the same about people Selling on older horses, people say better going to the bullet etc. This is the same.

I agree there is too much breeding but these ponies were conceived before the world went to hell in a hand basket.
		
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The thing is some Welsh breeders have been over breeding for years, WPCS has been very relaxed about the amount of breeders sending foals through their sales, for every one that makes a couple of thousand, there must be at least ten that sell for not much more than £50, so the virus has only made something that was already a problem worse.

]'The 73 Section A ponies, owned by Evan Lloyd Evans of the Criccieth Stud, sold for a collective £32,570 at the Brightwells spring sale, Royal Welsh Showground. 
Topping the consignment was the 12-year-old grey mare Criccieth Melisa which sold to Miss Wilson of Buarth Mawr, Denbigh, for £2,800.
A further 26 Criccieth ponies had been catalogued but were held back as their foals were not old enough to travel. They will be offered at the autumn sales.'
So he was wanting to sell nearly a hundred animals through the sales.
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/criccieth-stud-ponies-sent-to-world-horse-welfare-307900



YorksG said:



			One reason for keeping section a mares in foal is that it reduces the risk of laminitis. It is the natural state for mares to carry a foal while she has one at foot
		
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So there is no hope for Section A geldings then, I have two, and neither have had laminitis.


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## Michen (20 October 2020)

I think any of you (myself included) who eat meat, and are judging what happened here, are absolute hypocrites.

However heatbreaking,and I know it is.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (20 October 2020)

honetpot said:



			The thing is some Welsh breeders have been over breeding for years, WPCS has been very relaxed about the amount of breeders sending foals through their sales, for every one that makes a couple of thousand, there must be at least ten that sell for not much more than £50, so the virus has only made something that was already a problem worse.

]'The 73 Section A ponies, owned by Evan Lloyd Evans of the Criccieth Stud, sold for a collective £32,570 at the Brightwells spring sale, Royal Welsh Showground.
Topping the consignment was the 12-year-old grey mare Criccieth Melisa which sold to Miss Wilson of Buarth Mawr, Denbigh, for £2,800.
A further 26 Criccieth ponies had been catalogued but were held back as their foals were not old enough to travel. They will be offered at the autumn sales.'
So he was wanting to sell nearly a hundred animals through the sales.
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/criccieth-stud-ponies-sent-to-world-horse-welfare-307900


So there is no hope for Section A geldings then, I have two, and neither have had laminitis.
		
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Thereis no question that there are many Welsh breeders. I bought my boy from the Autumn cob sales in 2018. His breeder had four there to be sold. All did. The breeding of horses and ponies does need to be scaled down but you cannot control the backyard breeders, if the licences studs slow down they will just breed more to fill the gap. 

Nobody seems to be willing to answer my question though. Which to me says it all.

We are all horse lovers, however excess stock has to go somewhere.


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## Lammy (20 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			Can go round and round in circles over ‘could have would have should have’ but what to do with them other than send them to the meat man, if they had gone to the sales then to the meat man would you feel better?
		
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I think most of us understand that these ponies ending up at the meat man is a preferable end to being abandoned on the welsh hills. What’s done is done.

However, you can bet the mares that have produced these colts are probably in foal again for next year. The breeder probably hasn’t reduced the amount of mares put in foal and the overbreeding will continue and next year there will be another batch of colts at the door of the slaughter house. That is where the problem lies. And if a breeder does that year on year they are just as bad as the travellers indiscriminately breeding useless cobs in my eyes.


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## maggie62 (20 October 2020)

Trying to sell foals aged from 2mths old ?.....not the best time. Seems like they were in a hurray to reduce the colt numbers.  I dread to think the amount of colts that are disposed of in this way by all breeders. Surely in this time of technology a foetus could be sexed in the womb and aborted if the undesirable sex. Far better doing that than to have to slaughter a few months after birth. I guess it's the old story of being financially unviable. The other aspect is if you keep the stock numbers fairly low you will have horses in demand therefore driving the price up. I find it all very distressing but then I am an old gimmer.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (20 October 2020)

maggie62 said:



			Trying to sell foals aged from 2mths old ?.....not the best time. Seems like they were in a hurray to reduce the colt numbers.  I dread to think the amount of colts that are disposed of in this way by all breeders. Surely in this time of technology a foetus could be sexed in the womb and aborted if the undesirable sex. Far better doing that than to have to slaughter a few months after birth. I guess it's the old story of being financially unviable. The other aspect is if you keep the stock numbers fairly low you will have horses in demand therefore driving the price up. I find it all very distressing but then I am an old gimmer.
		
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Im sorry but WHAT? That’s a slippery slope. Aborting the undesired sex? I cannot believe that has been suggested. We start that with animals then where does that lead? Im absolutely speechless.


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## teddypops (20 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			Im sorry but WHAT? That’s a slippery slope. Aborting the undesired sex? I cannot believe that has been suggested. We start that with animals then where does that lead? Im absolutely speechless.
		
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So it’s better for them to be born before killing them?


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## SO1 (20 October 2020)

I don't eat meat but I do agree with what others have said. These are livestock and being bred to give the breeder an income be that though selling them as potential riding ponies or as meat. The breeders are not breeding them as pets they are being farmed.

Of course it is sad but the most important thing is that the life they do have is good and that if they are sent to slaughter it is done in as humane way as possible so they have a comfortable journey and their last moments are as peaceful and stress free as possible.

Small native ponies have a very limited market - either as driving ponies, riding ponies for children or very light adults or companions. Large natives are a different matter all together, Highlands, and Connemara's are particularly expensive and well sought after.

Horses and Ponies are for a lot of people on this forum family pets but for many they are commodities to be bought and sold and income to be made from.


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## meleeka (20 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			Again not answering the question of what to do with them right now. That’s my question, they are bred to be sold, they don’t sell, so what to do with them?

Can go round and round in circles over ‘could have would have should have’ but what to do with them other than send them to the meat man, if they had gone to the sales then to the meat man would you feel better?
		
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I have answered. If they were mine I’d turn them all out in a field for the winter with forage and try again in the Spring.
I might even speculate to accumulate and have them gelded before sale.  I’d also think very carefully about how many ponies I could breed and sell each year so there wasn’t this wastage.


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## windand rain (20 October 2020)

vasectomies for stallions and contraceptives for mares have been tried in forest and hill bred ponies. The conservation grazing is maintained and the herd dynanics kept in order trouble is it only takes one stallion or a few mares to be missed and you are back to square one. It wasnt very successful. The New Forest are doing their best but there is sometimes stallions and mares dumped


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## SO1 (20 October 2020)

I think the market for New Forests is now a lot better than perhaps in the past, they are probably more versatile than say a section A due to their size. The breed society I think has done a lot to promote the breed and manage numbers and maintain quality.



windand rain said:



			vasectomies for stallions and contraceptives for mares have been tried in forest and hill bred ponies. The conservation grazing is maintained and the herd dynanics kept in order trouble is it only takes one stallion or a few mares to be missed and you are back to square one. It wasnt very successful. The New Forest are doing their best but there is sometimes stallions and mares dumped
		
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## windand rain (20 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			So it’s better for them to be born before killing them?
		
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Yes better for them to be born and stay with mum for months before weaning and slaughtering them. Kinder and less dangerous for the mare
Cows have calves removed at days old and bull calves slaughtered that in my view is far worse


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## Roasted Chestnuts (20 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			So it’s better for them to be born before killing them?
		
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Have a think about the whole picture please, this has been made illegal in humans in Britain so why would we do it to animals.


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## teddypops (20 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			Have a think about the whole picture please, this has been made illegal in humans in Britain so why would we do it to animals.
		
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This has nothing to do with humans. We are speaking about horses here so I don’t need to. So you think it’s better to allow animals to be born then to kill them?


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## teddypops (20 October 2020)

windand rain said:



			Yes better for them to be born and stay with mum for months before weaning and slaughtering them. Kinder and less dangerous for the mare
Cows have calves removed at days old and bull calves slaughtered that in my view is far worse
		
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Better that breeders stop breeding really rather than having excess stock.


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## Frumpoon (20 October 2020)

There must be something wrong with me because I found the footage very sad and very very disturbing

I think the women filming had every right to stand in a public place and film and I’m not certain I could have stayed silent in their shoes either

Its not hypocritical to feel terribly sad that this happens

This isnt a forum called Lamb and Hound or Cow and Hound so it is inevitable that people here will feel sadness and empathy for those poor ponies


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## Frumpoon (20 October 2020)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			All 3 have been for sale since 2 months old and have not been bought.

The people and their studs page have been bullied off Facebook.
		
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Good


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## Nudibranch (20 October 2020)

The WPCS should take a leaf (or several) out of the book of some of the other native breed societies. The wastage is huge. They are the breed of my homeland, and I grew up with them, but I have nothing to do with them now.

I expect some of those condemning the slaughter are probably the types who will be posting on here about their "rescued babies", asking how they can create a "bond" and then trying to pass them on again when they mess up the job of breaking and producing, and can't do a thing with them because of their "history". The breed I am involved with now commands a decent price for a youngster, and ready backed or ridden on animals just don't reach the market. Demand considerably outstrips supply and that's a far better model for the welfare of the animal.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (20 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			This has nothing to do with humans. We are speaking about horses here so I don’t need to. So you think it’s better to allow animals to be born then to kill them?
		
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Yes, in the short. You are talking about putting horses through the stress and trauma of abortions, by the time an equine foetus can be sexed it will be quite large and the chemicals used to abort are dangerous. Abortions are traumatic, birthing and raising a young animal is nature. People are only upset by this as they didn’t go to the sales first. 

Thousands of animals are born, raised and sent to the slaughter house to enter the food chain every year.


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## honetpot (20 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			Thereis no question that there are many Welsh breeders. I bought my boy from the Autumn cob sales in 2018. His breeder had four there to be sold. All did. The breeding of horses and ponies does need to be scaled down but you cannot control the backyard breeders, if the licences studs slow down they will just breed more to fill the gap.

Nobody seems to be willing to answer my question though. Which to me says it all.

We are all horse lovers, however excess stock has to go somewhere.
		
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 The owners of these ponies are not back yard breeders, they have bred ponies that qualify and win, RIHS and HOYS.
'Horse of the Year Show 2019  Mountain & Moorland Ridden Pony,Group Section A. 2nd Springbourne Cartier. '
 I have no problem with them going for meat, it's a quick end, buts lets everyone be honest, some of the larger breeders are just in it for money and if it's not going to win in the show ring they get culled as foals, or when the market was stronger sold through auctions with no papers. By giving the illusion that everything they breed does well, it inflates the price of their stock.


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## Elf On A Shelf (21 October 2020)

maggie62 said:



			Trying to sell foals aged from 2mths old ?.....not the best time. Seems like they were in a hurray to reduce the colt numbers.  I dread to think the amount of colts that are disposed of in this way by all breeders. Surely in this time of technology a foetus could be sexed in the womb and aborted if the undesirable sex. Far better doing that than to have to slaughter a few months after birth. I guess it's the old story of being financially unviable. The other aspect is if you keep the stock numbers fairly low you will have horses in demand therefore driving the price up. I find it all very distressing but then I am an old gimmer.
		
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Advertised at 2 months, wouldn't have left the farm til weaning.


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## Elf On A Shelf (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			Good
		
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So you condone bullying? And witch hunting?


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## Elf On A Shelf (21 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			So it’s better for them to be born before killing them?
		
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One of my mares has had 2 abortions - self impossed. One at just over 3 months due to infection and you couldn't tell what sex or colour the foal would have been. The other was 9 months. It was a chestnut filly. No reason for this abortion other than the mares body clearly doesn't agree with being in foal (7 years apart btw so not rushed back into foal and no other pregnancies) I damn near lost the mare. I could not have had her scanned for sex as she is a Shetland and far too small for an internal scan. As are most small native ponies. So scanning for sex is not a viable option not is aborting them.

Plus by aborting early just because they are male is stupid. The foal could be the next super star but you would never know if it were never born. 

If these foals were of top notch quality they would have been run on to either be stud stallions or show ponies.


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## teddypops (21 October 2020)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Plus by aborting early just because they are male is stupid. The foal could be the next super star but you would never know if it were never born.

If these foals were of top notch quality they would have been run on to either be stud stallions or show ponies.
		
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So it’s acceptable to overbreed just in case you get a good one? (That’s what the breeders of all the dumped coloured cobs do). I will never agree that that is ok. Maybe they should be more picky as to what the breed, instead of breeding for the sake of it then.


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## TheMule (21 October 2020)

We have no idea the full reason these weanlings ended up there. On the continent it's totally accepted that the bottom % of whatever you breed will go to the abattoir. The ones with wonky limbs which didn’t come right with some intervention, the ones with big overbites, the ones with a retained testicle that requires either running on or an expensive operation and countless other reasons, including just not being quality enough to fit the reputation of what you sell. Breeding is a lottery.
People can not sit behind their screens and say 'but why not give it away, my sister's friend's cousin would have had it' because that's how ponies fall into hard times. 

FWIW I'm at that abattoir reasonably regularly but don’t often see weanlings. I haven’t been since Covid so perhaps things have changed.


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## teddypops (21 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			Yes, in the short. You are talking about putting horses through the stress and trauma of abortions, by the time an equine foetus can be sexed it will be quite large and the chemicals used to abort are dangerous. Abortions are traumatic, birthing and raising a young animal is nature. People are only upset by this as they didn’t go to the sales first.

Thousands of animals are born, raised and sent to the slaughter house to enter the food chain every year.
		
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Are they? I’m more inclined to think they are upset because they haven’t been given a chance in life. There is no overbreeding in farming animals for meat though. Unlike in horse breeding.


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## mariew (21 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			There is no overbreeding in farming animals for meat though. Unlike in horse breeding.
		
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I would disagree, people want cheap meat, displayed by £3 chickens everywhere and it's much harder to find better welfare chickens that cost more. Mass breeding must happen for economies of scale, then people end up buying too much and throw food away. I would say this is over breeding, but of course more acceptable as animals are destined for slaughter therefore not needed to be sold on and left somewhere to be passed around homes.


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## shortstuff99 (21 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			Are they? I’m more inclined to think they are upset because they haven’t been given a chance in life. There is no overbreeding in farming animals for meat though. Unlike in horse breeding.
		
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There sure is in the dairy and egg industry, all the males are killed pretty immediately.


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## Not_so_brave_anymore (21 October 2020)

I've not read all the comments, and I can't face watching the video, but I just wanted to ask- is this in this country at least? Do horses/ponies still have to be exported live to abbatoirs in Europe, or is that at least illegal these days?


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## teddypops (21 October 2020)

shortstuff99 said:



			There sure is in the dairy and egg industry, all the males are killed pretty immediately.
		
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Of course, I didn’t think of that, I was thinking of the animals that farmers breed and raise for meat.


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## Elf On A Shelf (21 October 2020)

Not_so_brave_anymore said:



			I've not read all the comments, and I can't face watching the video, but I just wanted to ask- is this in this country at least? Do horses/ponies still have to be exported live to abbatoirs in Europe, or is that at least illegal these days?
		
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You can export them or there are a small handful of abattoirs here that will do horses for the zoo trade and sell the carcass not for human consumption.


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## TheMule (21 October 2020)

Not_so_brave_anymore said:



			I've not read all the comments, and I can't face watching the video, but I just wanted to ask- is this in this country at least? Do horses/ponies still have to be exported live to abbatoirs in Europe, or is that at least illegal these days?
		
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Live export for slaughter is not illegal. But yes, this abattoir is in England. Sadly it's the only one in the UK licensed to slaughter for human consumption so horses can still be transported long distances- lorry loads comes over from Ireland for example.


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## Berpisc (21 October 2020)

I remember in the early 90's I think, there was a problem with the bottom end of the horse market, horses were not getting taken for slaughter. In my area quite a few ponies got dumped or chucked in the drains north of Doncaster. I know this is only anectotal, and I agree that breeding numbers need to be watched (it might surprise some people but not all breeders are heartless moneygrabbers); there has long been a debate about breeding numbers after all. 
Sorry bit of a ramble, but abbatoirs do serve a purpose, when these mares were put in foal the current situation didn't exist. 
I am also not going to condone hate and witch hunting; its serves no logical purpose.


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## ycbm (21 October 2020)

My understanding is that the only difference this year from any other year is that these surplus foals were taken direct to the abattoir in an identifiable vehicle  instead of going through the sales and then on to the abattoir,  a double journey and a much more stressful experience in the middle.  

I've thought this one through overnight and I've come to the conclusion that there's a very big difference between breeding animals for meat and breeding them to sell as pets, which is effectively what ponies are these days. The idea of deliberately breeding more than you know there is a market for,  fully intending the surplus to be shot, either after going to the sales or direct to the abattoir, feels wrong. 
.


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## luckyoldme (21 October 2020)

Aren't we just a crap species.?
These animals are bred with the ultimate intention of finding one which is perfect (according to our criteria)
Basicly those young horses have to be slaughtered because they dont make the grade and havent found a new home.
Its not something I would want on my conscience.


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## sharni (21 October 2020)

brilliant post


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## sharni (21 October 2020)

people seem to think its ok to send these colts to slaughter. it isnt ok .others dumping them or whatever doesnt condone the action. 2 wrongs dont make a right. the colts should have been kept by the stud gelded and raised until a suitable buyer is found even if its 3 or 4 years hense. it is not ok to dispose of unwanted stock in anyway the breeder should take responsibility and keep the animals and breed fewer if the market isnt there.


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## SO1 (21 October 2020)

Having done a quick Google on the stud. Looks like it was a mother and daughter run stud but the mother passed away in February. 

If this is not normal activity for the stud I wonder if the mother passing away has put pressure on the stud and they were not able to run the ponies on over the winter or care for them in the normal way. 

It was bad publicity for the stud but if they are farmers then this business model for livestock is probably standard. 

There was an issue with a Dartmoor stud and welfare when someone had more ponies than they were able to care for properly. It is a very difficult situation if you can't sell and find yourself in a situation when you have more ponies you can care for what do you do?


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## Polos Mum (21 October 2020)

One of the rare breeds (Suffolk punch I think) have been using sex sorted sperm to only have filly's born. It's really easy to do - because male sperm are lighter with Y chromosome being so much smaller than X - so you just spin them and gravity does the rest. 

There are (relatively) cheap and easy options to have mares only.  
Late abortion isn't a good option but sex sorted sperm is definitely - maybe the cost of the vet doing that is cheaper than caring for a foal for 4/5 months then shooting it?


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			So you condone bullying? And witch hunting?
		
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I do, yes


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## Not_so_brave_anymore (21 October 2020)

TheMule said:



			Live export for slaughter is not illegal. But yes, this abattoir is in England. Sadly it's the only one in the UK licensed to slaughter for human consumption so horses can still be transported long distances- lorry loads comes over from Ireland for example.
		
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I don't particularly have a huge issue with ponies going to an abbatoir (I don't eat meat anyway, but the idea of ponies going to slaughter doesn't sit any worse with me that cows or sheep) But it's awful to imagine them having to do that hideous journey. And I don't know too much about it, but from what I've heard, they're not transported in luxury.....


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## Amymay (21 October 2020)

Just seen the footage. Not that it matters, but what stunning animals, and what a terrible, terrible waste 😢

Although surprised (and thankful ) to only see three - I was expecting many more.


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## HashRouge (21 October 2020)

luckyoldme said:



			Aren't we just a crap species.?
These animals are bred with the ultimate intention of finding one which is perfect (according to our criteria)
Basicly those young horses have to be slaughtered because they dont make the grade and havent found a new home.
Its not something I would want on my conscience.
		
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Great Post!


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## Elf On A Shelf (21 October 2020)

SO1 said:



			There was an issue with a Dartmoor stud and welfare when someone had more ponies than they were able to care for properly. It is a very difficult situation if you can't sell and find yourself in a situation when you have more ponies you can care for what do you do?
		
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The Pumphill stud - David Hinde. And it wasn't just ponies it was hundreds of dogs and some cats as well. And through it all he protested his innocence and that there was nothing wrong with the ponies despite many being emaciated and living amongst their dead relatives. He still, to this day believes he has done nothing wrong and keeps getting morr animald despite being banned from keeping them. 

What he did to those animals was a fate far worse than death.


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## TPO (21 October 2020)

Funny how people only want to "rescue" horses when it's too late. If people "would have taken the ponies if only I'd known" then why arent they BUYING them, as the abattoir would have, to "save" them from that fate. I'll bet there are still quite a few wee colts looking for homes. Or why arent they rehoming from a rescue if they have the space, time and money?

It certainly appears that a side of drama makes horses a lot more desirable in the moment...

Going to the slaughterhouse isnt a good outcome in many ways but it's a better outcome than lots of other ways.

Never mind all the meat farming comparisons, if you eat any forms of dairy at all (& it's in a lot of things) you're the cause of this happening on a massive scale. People in glass houses and all that.

Maybe instead of lashing out, hounding and bullying a breeder some self reflection would be of use and to take the time to find out more about the real issues.


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## scats (21 October 2020)

I’m surprised how many people on social media have no idea that this happens regularly, except the ponies usually go through the sales and then on to the abattoir rather than the stud delivering them.

 I bet a lot of the people outraged about this have no problem splashing milk in their coffee or enjoying their Sunday roast lamb...


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## southerncomfort (21 October 2020)

meleeka said:



			I have answered. If they were mine I’d turn them all out in a field for the winter with forage and try again in the Spring.
I might even speculate to accumulate and have them gelded before sale.  I’d also think very carefully about how many ponies I could breed and sell each year so there wasn’t this wastage.
		
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I am friends with someone who breeds section A's.  She never breeds anything she couldn't afford to keep should it not sell.

As above, anything that doesn't sell goes out for the winter.  Come the spring any colts that aren't stallion material are gelded and they try and get them out to a few shows to make them a more attractive buy.

Again anything that doesn't sell they keep.  And if numbers are too high then the mares stay empty.

Breeding ponies that you know their is no market for, then sending them to slaughter is unethical and indefensible in my view.


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## TPO (21 October 2020)

I agree that continuing to over breed is a form of negligence but it was "only" 3 colts.

I am not being flippant, it would have been far preferable for breeder to get a fair price and these horses end up in fantastic forever homes but given everything that 2020 has thrown at the world to have "only" 3 unsold horses delivered direct to the abattoir, missing out the stress of the sales ring, seems preferable.

I havent seen the video, nor do I want to, but I was thinking the breeder was offloading lots of uncared for horses. 3 colts in good nick knowing where they've ended up is a much better option than many of the fates that thousands of horses are living with


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## tristar (21 October 2020)

a lot of welsh are bred for inhand showing etc on the studs, they are overbred and have been for as long as i can remember, they have no intentions of keeping them  or rearing and training all of them

years ago the markets were full of bewildered unhandled foals carted around the country, we used to buy and even bred from some of them, they made fantastic riding ponies some had very good breeding one was by a very good arab, i kept him as a licenced  part bred arab stallion, and knew him all his  long life


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## Hallo2012 (21 October 2020)

Polos Mum said:



			One of the rare breeds (Suffolk punch I think) have been using sex sorted sperm to only have filly's born. It's really easy to do - because male sperm are lighter with Y chromosome being so much smaller than X - so you just spin them and gravity does the rest.

There are (relatively) cheap and easy options to have mares only.
Late abortion isn't a good option but sex sorted sperm is definitely - maybe the cost of the vet doing that is cheaper than caring for a foal for 4/5 months then shooting it?
		
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its not.

sexed sperm and AI is incredibly expensive compared to letting a stallion run with 20 mares and nature do its job.......no large scale small pony breeders cover by AI.

as a small pony stallion owner i am always asked for natural in hand or field covering as its cheaper ( i refuse, mine is AI only to proven mares but i am a one stallion owner and he is firstly my ridden pony and not a money making machine)


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## ihatework (21 October 2020)

Some people really do have their heads stuck in the sand don’t they?

I don’t think any animal lover, whether you support the studs actions or don’t, wouldn’t feel that sad heavy heart at the video. Lovely little weanlings, cute as anything, happy healthy and alert going to slaughter. Such a waste. But any small consolation is that they look really well cared for and I imagine their short time on this planet was pretty good.

But whoever said any meat eaters on this thread would be hypocrites to aggressively condone the studs actions are completely right. These colts are small fry compared to the culling and conditions many intensively farmed animals endure on a daily basis. 

Sexed semen is unlikely to be a viable option for this type of stud. It’s not that cheap to do and also relies on AI. That would make a pregnancy start at around 1K per animal, rather than a natural covering 

Finally to decimate a small stud who are probably only doing what is the most ethical thing for the animal at this point in time is despicable.

Bunny huggers I suggest you go and buy a nice big field and go pay pennies for the hundreds of overbred stock going for meat. Sprinkle them all in rainbow dust, bring in the trainers and churn out gold plated riding ponies.

Breeders, well actually there is a message here. If you are continually so overstocked that you have to send to abattoir, please rethink what you are doing. It not ok long term.


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## tristar (21 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			Again not answering the question of what to do with them right now. That’s my question, they are bred to be sold, they don’t sell, so what to do with them?

Can go round and round in circles over ‘could have would have should have’ but what to do with them other than send them to the meat man, if they had gone to the sales then to the meat man would you feel better?
		
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never breed to sell


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## ester (21 October 2020)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			The Pumphill stud - David Hinde. And it wasn't just ponies it was hundreds of dogs and some cats as well. And through it all he protested his innocence and that there was nothing wrong with the ponies despite many being emaciated and living amongst their dead relatives. He still, to this day believes he has done nothing wrong and keeps getting morr animald despite being banned from keeping them.

What he did to those animals was a fate far worse than death.
		
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That would be my concern when people are saying they should run them on for 3 or 4 years, that isn't free and we have plenty of shitty stud neglect stories. I'd rather they had done this.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 October 2020)

tristar said:



			never breed to sell
		
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Again not answering the question those ponies are here now.

Breeders don’t breed to keep. If that was the case none of us would have a horse.


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## ester (21 October 2020)

Quite, thank goodness not everyone has to breed horses in order to actually acquire one!


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## ester (21 October 2020)

oh do bog off, reported


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## tristar (21 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			Again not answering the question those ponies are here now.

Breeders don’t breed to keep. If that was the case none of us would have a horse.
		
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if what they bred was good enough, they would not have a problem selling them for good prices or problem keeping them till 4 yrs


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## conniegirl (21 October 2020)

tristar said:



			if what they bred was good enough, they would not have a problem selling them for good prices or problem keeping them till 4 yrs
		
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the problem with that is that no one is willing to spend £5k on a just backed 12hh pony. So they would still have problems selling them.

until people are willing to pay decent prices for well bred ponies this sort of thing will continue


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## Cloball (21 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			So it’s acceptable to overbreed just in case you get a good one? (That’s what the breeders of all the dumped coloured cobs do). I will never agree that that is ok. Maybe they should be more picky as to what the breed, instead of breeding for the sake of it then.
		
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Pretty much the whole continental warmblood and racing industry thoroughbred breeding model is the same. Is it right? Of course not.


teddypops said:



			Are they? I’m more inclined to think they are upset because they haven’t been given a chance in life. There is no overbreeding in farming animals for meat though. Unlike in horse breeding.
		
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There is soo much waste in the farming industry. Be it male animals being slaughtered after birth or supermarkets throwing away unsold food. We are a wasteful society.

I wonder if there is more waste this year as the sales are online and there hasn't been the same show scene? Unless you can present your foal with a video and photographs, difficult if you have a lot of unhandled stock or aren't tech savvy, they're unlikely to sell. Who knows how many people bid, watched or knew about the sales, I wonder if the 'meat man' would bother? I'm not sure you could get away with putting poor youngsters online for all to see rather than leaving them at the sales which seems to happen not infrequently. There's a pretty infamous stud out this way that always seems to have bother and yet still wins shows.

Maybe it is a better sales model as it takes a bit more 'effort' , visibility and is difficult to do with large numbers of foals?

I wonder if there is a link between the over breeding of certain natives and the ones that seem to struggle with numbers at all like the fell etc?


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## meleeka (21 October 2020)

conniegirl said:



			the problem with that is that no one is willing to spend £5k on a just backed 12hh pony. So they would still have problems selling them.

until people are willing to pay decent prices for well bred ponies this sort of thing will continue
		
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£5k?  Are you saying that’s how much it costs to produce a Section A pony to 3?


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## ihatework (21 October 2020)

Cloball said:



			Pretty much the whole continental warmblood and racing industry thoroughbred breeding model is the same.
		
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You are completely spot on.
Any one of us on here that supports racing or elite horse sport is, indirectly, supporting the mass over breeding of horses. And in their cases they are less well adapted to being kept on a shoestring if they fall into the wrong hands.


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## tristar (21 October 2020)

conniegirl said:



			the problem with that is that no one is willing to spend £5k on a just backed 12hh pony. So they would still have problems selling them.

until people are willing to pay decent prices for well bred ponies this sort of thing will continue
		
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i been looking at ponies lately and come to the conclusion i will roll the dice with our pony till he`s trained, a good pony is worth a lot of money, i feel  4 yrs is the start and the price should go up from then

my experience only,  if its good enough you get  offers, people see the horse or pony and want it


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## ihatework (21 October 2020)

meleeka said:



			£5k?  Are you saying that’s how much it costs to produce a Section A pony to 3?
		
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For any real profit it should do.

But let’s look at a real shoestring, back of fag packet calculation - based on getting a pony to 4 and doing 16 weeks training, because let’s face it Mrs Watson-Smythe and darling Penelope need reassurance this gold plated pony is safe!

Mare contribution, say good mare is worth 1K and has 5 foals. Mare contributes £200.

Stallion contributes £100.

£500/year to keep and that’s with minimal vet intervention across the herd and no real income if you own your land (god forbid if you need to rent). £2000

16 weeks of training, 5 days a week, £10/hour. £800.

So that pony has cost £3100 and that is really costing it tight.

Then you need to add on £1900 for the stress of dealing with Mrs Watson-Smythe and Penelope


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## milliepops (21 October 2020)

meleeka said:



			£5k?  Are you saying that’s how much it costs to produce a Section A pony to 3?
		
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I'm not a breeder of small ponies but I don't think that would be a ridiculous price, if people are saying they should be carefully AI bred etc instead of running with a stallion, you'd be looking at a big old chunk just to get and confirm the mare in foal, that mare is probably going to be coddled more during her pregnancy as there is the need to recoup costs for every foal rather than hope for the best, so stabling, bedding, staff... foal down indoors, fed/feet/wormed etc throughout the next few years and then send for backing as CG has mentioned a 12hh backed pony.


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## Ranyhyn (21 October 2020)

Whilst it is shocking for us horse lovers, it really isnt any different to my lambs going to slaughter.  They are cute too you know, before they make it to the plate.  I just dont think anyone but those who have decided to be vegan, can stand in judgement on this without being dreafully speciesist. *is that a word who knows*


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## SO1 (21 October 2020)

I think there is a problem with the market for small breed natives.

If Welsh farmers want to get a decent income from ponies maybe breeding Welsh ponies which are in plentiful supply and often not suitable for novice children or adults is not the way to do it.

If they have land and want to bred equines maybe invest in breeds that are hardy but more sought after such as Connies or Highlands or are they restrictions as to what breeds or sizes they can run out the Welsh Mountains.

A lot of the other native pony societies seem to be going down the route of more selective breeding to reduce numbers and keep prices up.

Cost of gelding colts also an issue for breeders but colts difficult to sell as most people who have horses don't own their own land and not easy to find livery that will take colts.




Cloball said:



			Pretty much the whole continental warmblood and racing industry thoroughbred breeding model is the same. Is it right? Of course not.

There is soo much waste in the farming industry. Be it male animals being slaughtered after birth or supermarkets throwing away unsold food. We are a wasteful society.

I wonder if there is more waste this year as the sales are online and there hasn't been the same show scene? Unless you can present your foal with a video and photographs, difficult if you have a lot of unhandled stock or aren't tech savvy, they're unlikely to sell. Who knows how many people bid, watched or knew about the sales, I wonder if the 'meat man' would bother? I'm not sure you could get away with putting poor youngsters online for all to see rather than leaving them at the sales which seems to happen not infrequently. There's a pretty infamous stud out this way that always seems to have bother and yet still wins shows.

Maybe it is a better sales model as it takes a bit more 'effort' , visibility and is difficult to do with large numbers of foals?

I wonder if there is a link between the over breeding of certain natives and the ones that seem to struggle with numbers at all like the fell etc?
		
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## conniegirl (21 October 2020)

meleeka said:



			£5k?  Are you saying that’s how much it costs to produce a Section A pony to 3?
		
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Thats how much it would cost if it wasn't done the way it is.

You would be looking at at least £1500 to get a foal on the floor (STUD fee, vet fees, cost to keep mare etc) then you have the cost of keeping the foal for 4 years, all the associated vets fees, gelding costs, farrier costs, hay, feed and the breeders time to care for all of them So say £2k if you do it on the cheap. Then breaking of small ponies is a specialist job and most good riders who are small enough for 12hh ponies charge around £250 a week for breaking and you need a minimum of 8 weeks.

very easily rack up £5k in costs for a 4yr old just broken pony

Just as a comparison, currently you will be lucky to get £1000 for a just backed section A, 
I know quite a few small welshies who have sold for tiny amounts of money as youngstock and gone on to win big prizes in all spheres. for example one was £250 as a 2 year old, won his ridden class at the royal welsh as an 8yr old. others sold for £50 through beeston market who have gone on to national junior teams.


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## Tiddlypom (21 October 2020)

meleeka said:



			£5k?  Are you saying that’s how much it costs to produce a Section A pony to 3?
		
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If true costings are done, and the animal is correctly cared for and started, then probably yes.


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## teddypops (21 October 2020)

Ranyhyn said:



			Whilst it is shocking for us horse lovers, it really isnt any different to my lambs going to slaughter.  They are cute too you know, before they make it to the plate.  I just dont think anyone but those who have decided to be vegan, can stand in judgement on this without being dreafully speciesist. *is that a word who knows*
		
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It is different though because those lambs are bred for meat. These colts have been sent for slaughter because the breeder didn’t want colts and there wasn’t a market for them.


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## Tiddlypom (21 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			It is different though because those lambs are bred for meat. These colts have been sent for slaughter because the breeder didn’t want colts and there wasn’t a market for them.
		
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Morally no different.


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## TPO (21 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			It is different though because those lambs are bred for meat. These colts have been sent for slaughter because the breeder didn’t want colts and there wasn’t a market for them.
		
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The colts and lambs wont know a difference?


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## Ranyhyn (21 October 2020)

My old ewes, spent ewes, prolapse ewes, bad mothers, spent rams all go to slaughter too.  Basically anything that isnt paying its way.  Thats farming.


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## ihatework (21 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			It is different though because those lambs are bred for meat. These colts have been sent for slaughter because the breeder didn’t want colts and there wasn’t a market for them.
		
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So if a horse breeder turned around and said, my business model is to produce 20 foals a year. I will retain the top 20% for my own breeding program, to continue improving the breed. From the remaining 80% any that have medical issues or temperament issues that make them likely unsuitable for a private market will go as zoo fodder. The remaining animals will be offered for sale to the private market but if unsold will be zoo fodder.

Zoo animals need to eat too.

So how is that significantly different to rearing lambs?

Just playing devils advocate by the way.


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## teddypops (21 October 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			Morally no different.[/QUOTE
		
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TPO said:



			The colts and lambs wont know a difference?
		
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no, you’re right, but those colts could have been gelded and re advertised and more likely sold. Not sure what else you can do with lambs.


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## conniegirl (21 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			no, you’re right, but those colts could have been gelded and re advertised and more likely sold. Not sure what else you can do with lambs.
		
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breeder wouldnt even get the cost of the gelding back for them.


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## teddypops (21 October 2020)

ihatework said:



			So if a horse breeder turned around and said, my business model is to produce 20 foals a year. I will retain the top 20% for my own breeding program, to continue improving the breed. From the remaining 80% any that have medical issues or temperament issues that make them likely unsuitable for a private market will go as zoo fodder. The remaining animals will be offered for sale to the private market but if unsold will be zoo fodder.

Zoo animals need to eat too.

So how is that significantly different to rearing lambs?

Just playing devils advocate by the way.[/QUOTE

it’s different because the horse breeder is over breeding in the hope they get some good stock. Farmers are tearing animals for food.
		
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## Polos Mum (21 October 2020)

Hallo2012 said:



			sexed sperm and AI is incredibly expensive compared to letting a stallion run with 20 mares and nature do its job.......no large scale small pony breeders cover by AI.
		
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I am sure it is much more expensive vs. chucking stallion in field of mares - but if it's compared to owning / feeding a mare for 9 months, then covering vets bills for foaling, then feeding / worming / feet etc. for both mare and foal for another 4-5 months to then get £100 back as meat money - not to mention all the time and effort, is it really that much more expensive?

I've no idea - but rather than just saying "it's how it's always been done so tough" maybe they could look for more creative alternatives?

If they are a nice well intentioned stud then creative alternatives might be a better option than having to do something I am sure nobody would relish.  Even the most heartless would be pained to get £100 for 13 months effort and at least that in feed / wormers.


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## teddypops (21 October 2020)

conniegirl said:



			breeder wouldnt even get the cost of the gelding back for them.
		
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Do you think they have made money sending them to slaughter?


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## TPO (21 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			no, you’re right, but those colts could have been gelded and re advertised and more likely sold. Not sure what else you can do with lambs.
		
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They *could* have been but thays another outlay for the breeder on horses that already havent sold. Then what if there is still no interest in them?

I get what you're saying and a good  breeder should have a contingency plan like gelding and running on. However this year has done a grand job of scuppering most plans...

I've no idea the quality of these colts, perhaps they weren't that great so gelding wouldnt increase interest in them. 

I guess taking them direct to slaughter was this breeders back up plan.


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## Ranyhyn (21 October 2020)

You rarely make money in that scenario but if you keep them, even for a week you're sat on a potential vet bill.  Better to cut your losses and knock them on the head and put something back in the pot, especially in this climate and this time of year.


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## TPO (21 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			Do you think they have made money sending them to slaughter?
		
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They wouldnt have made a profit but they would have made some money rather than outlay more on gelding and running on (to have them not sell privately or go for meat through the ring next year)


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## ester (21 October 2020)

farmers breed to get good stock to keep too. . .


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## Auslander (21 October 2020)

It makes me sad to see this - but not as sad as seeing mudpits full of abandoned horses that have been left to die of starvation.


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## conniegirl (21 October 2020)

Just looked on this years welsh sales, a couple of 4yr old Section A geldings on there, backed and the TOP price was £2000. If you have to send away for backing you are not going to even get your backing fees back at that sort of price, let alone foaling, 4yrs of keep, gelding and vaccines etc.
A 2 yr old gelding (unbroken) sold for £200. Again, you arn't even getting your gelding cost back at that


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## dorsetladette (21 October 2020)

It is sad, but I suppose they have just cut out the middle man. These ponies would probably have gone to a sales somewhere and been bought by the meat man for a few pounds and then taken to the abattoir.  At least they had a little less stress this way - it does seem a waste though.


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## honetpot (21 October 2020)

conniegirl said:



			Thats how much it would cost if it wasn't done the way it is.

You would be looking at at least £1500 to get a foal on the floor (STUD fee, vet fees, cost to keep mare etc) then you have the cost of keeping the foal for 4 years, all the associated vets fees, gelding costs, farrier costs, hay, feed and the breeders time to care for all of them So say £2k if you do it on the cheap. Then breaking of small ponies is a specialist job and most good riders who are small enough for 12hh ponies charge around £250 a week for breaking and you need a minimum of 8 weeks.

very easily rack up £5k in costs for a 4yr old just broken pony

Just as a comparison, currently you will be lucky to get £1000 for a just backed section A
		
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 That is not how most Welsh ponies are bred. They lease or buy a stallion, you are lucky if they are vaccinated, and then they are run on groups on rough grazing like cattle, and brought in only if they are being shown. They are sold off their dams, and can be over £1000.
A lots of A's when broken have problems because they are used to living out in all weathers, with little extra food, they are tough active ponies. The herd bred A I have was food aggressive because it had to fight for it, the potential stallion I own, in contrast was kept indoors and stuffed with food and only allowed out when it went to a show, so at three he had travelled everywhere, but had no social skills. Very pretty but his face is actually deformed and he is a head shaker, and he can not be ridden. Although he had travelled the country in a very smart lorry of course he was not vaccinated.
  I do not understand Welsh showing, the end product for the majority of breeders seems to be not a ridden animal, just a constant cycle of inhand showing and breeding. Its more akin to travellers breeding ponies for their looks, to be seen as a status symbol, like a flash car.
 A traditional Welsh pony is a hardy working animal, some of the 'bred to show Welsh' have medical problems that are rarely seen in a pony.


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## Tiddlypom (21 October 2020)

I don’t usually go in for much whataboutery, but rather than folk getting all aerated about some well cared for weanlings with a short but happy life, those who want to make a difference should worry more about the cruelty cases.

This is from a few weeks ago.

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/rspca-100-horses-seized-gwynedd-724324


There are much worse fates than travelling healthy youngsters to a reputable abattoir.


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## conniegirl (21 October 2020)

honetpot said:



			That is not how most Welsh ponies are bred. They lease or buy a stallion, you are lucky if they are vaccinated, and then they are run on groups on rough grazing like cattle, and brought in only if they are being shown. They are sold off their dams, and can be over £1000.
A lots of A's when broken have problems because they are used to living out in all weathers, with little extra food, they are tough active ponies. The herd bred A I have was food aggressive because it had to fight for it, the potential stallion I own, in contrast was kept indoors and stuffed with food and only allowed out when it went to a show, so at three he had travelled everywhere, but had no social skills. Very pretty but his face is actually deformed and he is a head shaker, and he can not be ridden. Although he had travelled the country in a very smart lorry of course he was not vaccinated.
  I do not understand Welsh showing, the end product for the majority of breeders seems to be not a ridden animal, just a constant cycle of inhand showing and breeding. Its more akin to travellers breeding ponies for their looks, to be seen as a status symbol, like a flash car.
A traditional Welsh pony is a hardy working animal, some of the 'bred to show Welsh' have medical problems that are rarely seen in a pony.
		
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yes I know that what you describe is currently how they are bred, It is how farmers can afford to sell them for £200. Hence the first line of my post!


conniegirl said:



			Thats how much it would cost if it wasn't done the way it is.
		
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My post was about how that isn't going to change untill people are willing to pay more because until people are willing to pay more the people breeding them cannot afford to do it the way I described.


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## windand rain (21 October 2020)

Of course there is always the criminal act of stuffing them full of food to show as youngstock only to end up shot at 4 due to crippling laminitis. I might even suggest that those colts were the lucky ones. I do not condone overbreeding to get that special one but it happens in all animal breeding from deformed dogs to hereford bulls humans really are the pits when it comes to caring for the natural world


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## Hallo2012 (21 October 2020)

Polos Mum said:



			I am sure it is much more expensive vs. chucking stallion in field of mares - but if it's compared to owning / feeding a mare for 9 months, then covering vets bills for foaling, then feeding / worming / feet etc. for both mare and foal for another 4-5 months to then get £100 back as meat money - not to mention all the time and effort, is it really that much more expensive?

I've no idea - but rather than just saying "it's how it's always been done so tough" maybe they could look for more creative alternatives?

If they are a nice well intentioned stud then creative alternatives might be a better option than having to do something I am sure nobody would relish.  Even the most heartless would be pained to get £100 for 13 months effort and at least that in feed / wormers.
		
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but they dont feed hard feed, barely feed hay, dont worm, barely do feet etc-a lot of these welsh pony studs are run on massive numbers, little care, and a make it or die attitude.

I know a few people that worked at a very well known A/B/C stud that has produced multiple RW and HOYS winners, Australia exports etc, but its mass production they are NOT all in fed, coddled, rugged, wormed etc. The mares run with the stallion and then stay out. The are all in foal to prevent lami. Lorry loads of foals go to the slaughter every year.

theres no AI, scanning etc, no pinching twins or cultures to see why they abort.

when one stallion can cover 20 mares for free V all the work and money of AI, a little wastage is nothing and not worth gelding etc.

not that it doesnt make me sad but i think people are naive to how little money these studs spend on the ponies.........


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## chocolategirl (21 October 2020)

Polos Mum said:



			I can only assume there was more to the story (maybe injured / sick in some way the video doesn't show). The horse market is still strong I'm surprised that a stud couldn't get more for them than the abattoir would pay
		
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Or maybe they’re just breeding them specifically for slaughter? That would be my bet sadly 🥺


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## Polos Mum (21 October 2020)

Hallo2012 said:



			not that it doesnt make me sad but i think people are naive to how little money these studs spend on the ponies.........
		
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I know they aren't mollycoddled but I can't believe even the largest of operations can get a foal to 4 months old for under £100 (including time / diesel to even take it there) to make it pay back taking it to the slaughter house for that. 
I also don't think the ones that make it would be enough to cover the basic basic costs.


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## dorsetladette (21 October 2020)

Polos Mum said:



			I know they aren't mollycoddled but I can't believe even the largest of operations can get a foal to 4 months old for under £100 (including time / diesel to even take it there) to make it pay back taking it to the slaughter house for that.
I also don't think the ones that make it would be enough to cover the basic basic costs.
		
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Those foals wont have made them any money - they will have lost money most definitely, but the ones they have found homes for will make them enough to cover the loss on these (I assume colts). If these are the ones chosen to dispose of the ones at home must be exceptional. 

I think the biggest mistake they made was turning up with a sign written trailer at an abattoir that's so recently been in the news. If their name wasn't visible this video wouldn't of got the publicity it has.


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## shamrock2021 (21 October 2020)

Horse slaughter is actually Cause  a lot of suffering because horse are very hard to kill compared to cows and sheep . It’s something to do with there skills and it extremely defcult to get the right spot the first time. My uncle is a farmer and he even says that.  

studs  shouldn’t be over breeding in the first place.


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## Tiddlypom (21 October 2020)

Lexi2009 said:



			Horse slaughter is actually Cause a lot of suffering because horse are very hard to kill compared to cows and sheep . It’s something to do with there skills and it extremely defcult to get the right spot the first time. My uncle is a farmer and he even says that.
		
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All the more reason to take a horse/pony to a place with the expertise to do the job properly.


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## ester (21 October 2020)

chocolategirl said:



			Or maybe they’re just breeding them specifically for slaughter? That would be my bet sadly 🥺
		
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you'd be needing to take more than three to make back the fuel cost of taking them surely.


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## Berpisc (21 October 2020)

The other thing to bear in mind with brining on a youngster especially with ponies is that, as a newly backed prospect, they are only at the very start of their education and still have a limited market as you need a skilled little rider and good parental back up (if appropriate) to achieve the safe pony many young riders and parents want. 
The good news stories of ponies coming from such as Beeston are great, they are also a reflection of a great deal of time, skill and dedication; good for the pony, but not the easy answer for all youngsters. 
Humans are a rubbish species on the whole.


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## Ranyhyn (21 October 2020)

Horses mean something to us, we're on a horse forum.  But often as others have pointed out quite rightly, these horses are farmed.  That means their owner views them as I do my farm animals.  They are a commodity.  Those who are excellent examples for breeding or selling are kept, those who are not are culled.  Thats the way it works guys.  Just because we see a value in the horses because we view horses differently doesnt mean the owner was in the wrong to view them as a commodity as so many farmers do with their stock.
Its unsightly and often unsavoury but its real life and its happening on farms everywhere daily.


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## meleeka (21 October 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			All the more reason to take a horse/pony to a place with the expertise to do the job properly.
		
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We have an excellent “knacker man” here. hypothetically, If I had some overbred, unwanted colts, I’d give him a call and he’d come and do the job professionally and kindly at home.  I would probably have to pay him, but I’d have made some money on the fillies I’d sold to be able to afford it.


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## Lindylouanne (21 October 2020)

Lexi2009 said:



			Horse slaughter is actually Cause  a lot of suffering because horse are very hard to kill compared to cows and sheep . It’s something to do with there skills and it extremely defcult to get the right spot the first time.
		
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A good knackerman will have no trouble getting it right first time and it’s quick. Having handed one over to the fallen stockman the pony was on the floor before I had let go of the rope. Not fuss, pony had no idea and within minutes he was being winched onto the lorry. I would rather see animals slaughtered humanely than suffering in dire conditions half starved. Sadly it’s life and death.


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## maggie62 (21 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			Im sorry but WHAT? That’s a slippery slope. Aborting the undesired sex? I cannot believe that has been suggested. We start that with animals then where does that lead? Im absolutely speechless.
		
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Cheeky Chestnut said:



			Im sorry but WHAT? That’s a slippery slope. Aborting the undesired sex? I cannot believe that has been suggested. We start that with animals then where does that lead? Im absolutely speechless.
		
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Oh....so it is ok to take an independently living /breathing/running around little foal to be slaughtered ! Are you disgusted at the amount of unwanted human foetus's aborted all the time ?  How come you are speechless at the thought, at least if they won't stop getting their mares covered then there should be some other way to prevent this disgusting slaughter.


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## ester (21 October 2020)

swift left turn there.


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## Hallo2012 (21 October 2020)

Polos Mum said:



			I know they aren't mollycoddled but I can't believe even the largest of operations can get a foal to 4 months old for under £100 (including time / diesel to even take it there) to make it pay back taking it to the slaughter house for that.
I also don't think the ones that make it would be enough to cover the basic basic costs.
		
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but the point is that they are culling the ones that will cost money over winter-they arent trying to make money on these, just not lose any more and the value of the sold fillies, in foal fillies and stallions prospects sold on will more than cover a lorry to the abattoir.


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## shortstuff99 (21 October 2020)

ester said:



			swift left turn there.
		
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😬


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## ihatework (21 October 2020)

maggie62 said:



			Oh....so it is ok to take an independently living /breathing/running around little foal to be slaughtered ! Are you disgusted at the amount of unwanted human foetus's aborted all the time ?  How come you are speechless at the thought, at least if they won't stop getting their mares covered then there should be some other way to prevent this disgusting slaughter.
		
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Im not opposed to the idea, but the practicalities probably don’t add up.

Theoretically, if you were going to abort a specific sex, colts presumably, then to be as ethical as possible this would need to be done early. You can sex an embryo at about 60 days.

So you would need to get a semi ferel pony off it’s grazing. You would need to know the date if that pregnancy, which is unlikely to be accurate given a running herd. You would need to scan that semi ferel pony.

All the above make it unlikely to be done, but say you do manage it. The abortions would be indiscriminate. I know us females know we are the superior sex but we do need some males. And to select the best males you need them to be born. Mass abortions would lower the breed standard


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## Lammy (21 October 2020)

conniegirl said:



			My post was about how that isn't going to change untill people are willing to pay more because until people are willing to pay more the people breeding them cannot afford to do it the way I described.
		
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But the issue is no buyer is going to come in and offer 3x the asking price just because. If the breeding was controlled/restricted and there were less ponies on the market there would be a higher demand for the foals and would likely all sell rather than flooding the market with cheap ponies just to ship the ones that don’t make it to slaughter. 

These breeders breed this many because they can and because it’s cheap to do so. From their website (theres an up to date one that can be found on google) quite a few of this years crop of foals were bought by private buyers in Germany and Belgium. You can clearly see the 3 that haven’t been sold in time for weaning, one advert each and I haven’t been able to find any more adverts for them on the internet so they were likely only advertised on their own site/FB. I don’t really count that as trying to sell these ponies, the abattoir was the easier, quicker option for the breeder. Which for this year could be forgiven but if that is their usual business plan, to slaughter the ones they don’t sell then they need to reassess how many ponies they are breeding. 

Supply far outweighs demand for these ponies and I think the WPCS needs to do something about it.


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## MagicMelon (21 October 2020)

Well I hope the stud is now closed and no longer breeding if clearly there is not enough interest in the foals they are producing?  I havent seen it and wouldnt bear to watch it anyway. I cant stand seeing any animal going to slaughter, it makes me sad even seeing the lorries driving past mine with the animals on (I live in a rural, very livestock farm orientated area). I hate my OH's job as he has to go into slaughter houses sometimes for the type of computer hardware he does for work. I no longer eat meat. 

I find it extremely sad when horses go for slaughter as in this country, they arent bred for it. I dislike people saying they had a "nice" end as they could have ended up in bad homes, well thats the case for ANY horse, not just the low end. I was gifted an extremely well bred horse (top Olympic SJ bloodlines throughout) who the previous owner would have paid a fortune for, it ended up being saved by some rich kid who got bored of him, chucked him in a dealers yard where he was extremely skinny with bite marks all over him and then they decided to have him PTS! He was saved by someone and gifted to me. So dont think its ONLY the cheap end of horses that end up in bad homes, ANY horse can.


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## Steerpike (21 October 2020)

It may sound harsh but at the end of the day when you have livestock you also have dead stock be it cows, sheep, horses ect


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## tristar (21 October 2020)

conniegirl said:



			the problem with that is that no one is willing to spend £5k on a just backed 12hh pony. So they would still have problems selling them.

until people are willing to pay decent prices for well bred ponies this sort of thing will continue
		
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you can of course use the smaller ones to cross and develop bigger ponies even horses, some of mine have good welsh pony, proper hill bred pedigree about 4 generations ago, and are 16, 2 hh


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## Hallo2012 (21 October 2020)

MagicMelon said:



			Well I hope the stud is now closed and no longer breeding if clearly there is not enough interest in the foals they are producing?  I havent seen it and wouldnt bear to watch it anyway. I cant stand seeing any animal going to slaughter, it makes me sad even seeing the lorries driving past mine with the animals on (I live in a rural, very livestock farm orientated area). I hate my OH's job as he has to go into slaughter houses sometimes for the type of computer hardware he does for work. I no longer eat meat.

I find it extremely sad when horses go for slaughter as in this country, they arent bred for it. I dislike people saying they had a "nice" end as they could have ended up in bad homes, well thats the case for ANY horse, not just the low end. I was gifted an extremely well bred horse (top Olympic SJ bloodlines throughout) who the previous owner would have paid a fortune for, it ended up being saved by some rich kid who got bored of him, chucked him in a dealers yard where he was extremely skinny with bite marks all over him and then they decided to have him PTS! He was saved by someone and gifted to me. So dont think its ONLY the cheap end of horses that end up in bad homes, ANY horse can.
		
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some of the top producing studs send foals to slaughter every year.

if they were all shut down there would be some of the famous names from HOYS etc missing......

not every foal bred can be top quality, whether welsh or wb or tb.

how many sub standard wb foals do you think end up in the meat trade? for every super star stallion sold for millions, hundreds of poor examples are slaughtered.

reality.

edited to add-its sad, but this is not a unique occurrence.


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## chocolategirl (21 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			These ponies mothers were out in foal a year before Covid hit. I see no reason for the hate this video has produced. They are going for meat, better that than starving, being abused, passed from pillar to post etc. There are no sales For these Ponies to go to this year, many studs are running at a loss, haven’t put their stallions back in or are selling off their stock as gone bust.

I think we are very hypocritical in this country, we eat beef, lamb, chicken etc but the thought of a horse going for meat is horrendous. People have no right to be assaulting studs for actually being responsible and disposing of excess stock.

This post won’t make me popular but the reality of the situation is if they cannot sell them and they cannot feed them then what  else are they supposed to do with them? Covid has a lot to answer for this year.
		
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Cognitive dissonance is extremely common, I too am guilty of it 🥺


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 October 2020)

chocolategirl said:



			Cognitive dissonance is extremely common, I too am guilty of it 🥺
		
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please elaborate? Reality and practicality seldom go hand in hand with CD. Turns out my post was actually fairly popular.


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## chaps89 (21 October 2020)

Hallo2012 said:



			but they dont feed hard feed, barely feed hay, dont worm, barely do feet etc-a lot of these welsh pony studs are run on massive numbers, little care, and a make it or die attitude.

I know a few people that worked at a very well known A/B/C stud that has produced multiple RW and HOYS winners, Australia exports etc, but its mass production they are NOT all in fed, coddled, rugged, wormed etc. The mares run with the stallion and then stay out. The are all in foal to prevent lami. Lorry loads of foals go to the slaughter every year.

theres no AI, scanning etc, no pinching twins or cultures to see why they abort.

when one stallion can cover 20 mares for free V all the work and money of AI, a little wastage is nothing and not worth gelding etc.

not that it doesnt make me sad but i think people are naive to how little money these studs spend on the ponies.........
		
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This.
A well known Welsh stud rents the field opposite mine. All the mares are semi-feral,  arrive loose in a cattle trailer and get herded in to leave. 1 this summer had the most horrendous blistering on her face. They're not checked, feet aren't done and the field is full of ragwort.
It's a well known stud and I'm definitley naive as I was stunned at how they're kept!
I imagine the costs in keeping them this way can't be anything but nominal, so the price they make from those they sell probably offsets those they don't somewhat.

It's sad but there are worse alternatives.


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## honetpot (21 October 2020)

Polos Mum said:



			I know they aren't mollycoddled but I can't believe even the largest of operations can get a foal to 4 months old for under £100 (including time / diesel to even take it there) to make it pay back taking it to the slaughter house for that.
I also don't think the ones that make it would be enough to cover the basic basic costs.
		
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They are playing a numbers game. They put how many in foal, pick the best and sell them as foals as show prospect, usually pretty colours, even markings etc for a premium price, some for an average price, then cull the rest. Keeping a native mare there is usually little cost, they use their own stallion, so if the majority are sold as foals, straight from the mare there is no keep to pay for them.

The Brightwells sale lifted the rock on this when some Criccieth ponies were presented in appealing condition but still the WPCS left the owner on the judges register. He is reported to have owned four hundred ponies, as he was trying to sell nearly a hundred through Brightwells, that probabely a good estimate.



https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/dartmoor-pony-breeder-david-hinde-banned-478732


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## Muddywellies (21 October 2020)

sharni said:



			what I disagree with is them being sent to the slaughter house instead of being PTS at home.
		
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Economics. Not all equines are pets, with lovely green pasture, warm stables, and lots of hugs and cuddles.   Many are assets and when surplus to requirements, are slaughtered for meat money (no different to chickens, pigs, sheep etc etc) .  Just the way it is, and as others have mentioned, there are worse places a pony can end up.  It's quite expensive having them PTS at home and then disposed of unfortunately.


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## Floofball (21 October 2020)

Ranyhyn said:



			Whilst it is shocking for us horse lovers, it really isnt any different to my lambs going to slaughter.  They are cute too you know, before they make it to the plate.  I just dont think anyone but those who have decided to be vegan, can stand in judgement on this without being dreafully speciesist. *is that a word who knows*
		
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Yes it is a word as is speciesism

‘...a prejudice or bias in favour of the interests of members of one's own species and against those of members of other species.’
Peter Singer, Animal Liberation, 1975

It is found throughout nature and can also be used as a term for humans that project different ethical or moral codes onto animals that have a higher emotional value to them. 🤓


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## WelshD (21 October 2020)

I'm really struggling with this one, I swing from one side to the other as the arguments and 'information' come forth and the sight of those youngsters obligingly going up that ramp will stay with me for some time.

I'm surprised though that this has caused such a reaction, I am sure this practice is far from uncommon and in fact I bet there are studs for many breeds where foals are disposed off quietly and unofficially within days of being born for reasons that range from conformation issues to simply not having the right markings

If these had been sold cheaply the stud would have been criticised when no doubt one ended up down on luck in someone's shed or somewhere, its a horrible thing to say but they have controlled every aspect of that pony's life including seeing that they are not passed around for a tenner. Yes cheap ponies often land on their feet but there are a great many who don't and most livery yards will not take colts.

Its a huge assumption to assume the stud will breed as many next year, the mother in the family has passed away and in many of these old fashioned studs the older generation can be the driving force when it comes to breeding large numbers. Lack of help or money may have led to ponies not being run on over winter.

If these have been advertised from two months old then the breeders have made efforts to sell them, many foals sell when still in the womb and the best examples are often snapped up as soon as they hit the ground.

I think the target market must take some blame here - looking at the lead rein/first ridden groups on facebook everyone seems to want the perfect paragon pony but very few are willing to make one/don't want a novice/don't have the time or knowhow - someone out there has to nurture these ponies from weanlings after all.

I see adverts wanting ponies but only those with four even white socks or only dapple greys/no greys/no white etc etc - you only have to take note of those in the show ring to wonder whether it just so happens that ponies with one or three white socks just happen to be less of a good example or less talented as for sure they are underrepresented. Many of the people I've seen complaining about the loss of these ponies are people that may have snapped up that chestnut if he had four white stockings not three. People are fickle.


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## Tiddlypom (21 October 2020)

To anyone who feels that they can help save an unwanted equine life, please do consider taking on a rehabilitated horse or pony from one of the reputable rescue charities. This will leave a space for another neglected near death equine to be taken in by knowledgable people.

This would do much more good than condoning this hysterical shame fest at healthy animals meeting a humane end.

I have fostered ponies twice before from the RSPCA. I carried on their good work til the ponies went on to be rehomed.


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## Tizer88 (21 October 2020)

WelshD said:



			I'm really struggling with this one, I swing from one side to the other as the arguments and 'information' come forth and the sight of those youngsters obligingly going up that ramp will stay with me for some time.

I'm surprised though that this has caused such a reaction, I am sure this practice is far from uncommon and in fact I bet there are studs for many breeds where foals are disposed off quietly and unofficially within days of being born for reasons that range from conformation issues to simply not having the right markings

If these had been sold cheaply the stud would have been criticised when no doubt one ended up down on luck in someone's shed or somewhere, its a horrible thing to say but they have controlled every aspect of that pony's life including seeing that they are not passed around for a tenner. Yes cheap ponies often land on their feet but there are a great many who don't and most livery yards will not take colts.

Its a huge assumption to assume the stud will breed as many next year, the mother in the family has passed away and in many of these old fashioned studs the older generation can be the driving force when it comes to breeding large numbers. Lack of help or money may have led to ponies not being run on over winter.

If these have been advertised from two months old then the breeders have made efforts to sell them, many foals sell when still in the womb and the best examples are often snapped up as soon as they hit the ground.

I think the target market must take some blame here - looking at the lead rein/first ridden groups on facebook everyone seems to want the perfect paragon pony but very few are willing to make one/don't want a novice/don't have the time or knowhow - someone out there has to nurture these ponies from weanlings after all.

I see adverts wanting ponies but only those with four even white socks or only dapple greys/no greys/no white etc etc - you only have to take note of those in the show ring to wonder whether it just so happens that ponies with one or three white socks just happen to be less of a good example or less talented as for sure they are underrepresented. Many of the people I've seen complaining about the loss of these ponies are people that may have snapped up that chestnut if he had four white stockings not three. People are fickle.
		
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personally i think its not different to dog breeding, humans having babies. If you cant ensure you have the space, money or time to care for the life you are bringing into the world then dont do it, 

Theyre not farmers breeding for meat to earn money. Theyre a stud (who usually are hobbyists ) if they dont have the space to run the foals on they should be banned by the breed society for irresponsible breeding. 
the fact that people want good safe ponies is true, but as most of the people into welshies know, many studs breed from a stallion thats only proven to be able to run around a ring at high speed trotting - the mares are half feral and rarely have any "proven" life under their belt, they dpnt breed riding or driivng ponies truely, they breed to suit there own click of judges that again can sprint around a ring at high speed  ..... this is not what the people want. 
gone are the days of a a versatile welsh pony who can do a few jobs. We all buy native irish ponies now as kiddies all rounders because the welsh are too flightly to do the job .

the breeders need a long hard look at themselves


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

I used to have a stud farm. On average we would put down two foals a year because they were not saleable, due to conformation problems usually. Breeders of stock (and horses ARE stock, not pets, if they are being commercially produced) need to be responsible for their excess. IMO the breeders were being circumspect in sending these unsaleable colts to slaughter. I've no idea if they have thought about their breeding plans going forward, but it would make sense to cut back in light of the current situation. Pony weanlings are no different to dairy bull calves or any other youngstock with no market.


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## dorsetladette (21 October 2020)

Tizer88 said:



			personally i think its not different to dog breeding, humans having babies. If you cant ensure you have the space, money or time to care for the life you are bringing into the world then dont do it,

Theyre not farmers breeding for meat to earn money. Theyre a stud (who usually are hobbyists ) if they dont have the space to run the foals on they should be banned by the breed society for irresponsible breeding.
the fact that people want good safe ponies is true, but as most of the people into welshies know, many studs breed from a stallion thats only proven to be able to run around a ring at high speed trotting - the mares are half feral and rarely have any "proven" life under their belt, they dpnt breed riding or driivng ponies truely, they breed to suit there own click of judges that again can sprint around a ring at high speed  ..... this is not what the people want.
gone are the days of a a versatile welsh pony who can do a few jobs. We all buy native irish ponies now as kiddies all rounders because the welsh are too flightly to do the job .

the breeders need a long hard look at themselves
		
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That's quite a sweeping statement. You only have to look at the lead rein and first ridden rings and (small working hunter classes) to see that the welsh A (and small B) still dominant there. So not all welsh ponies are bred as you suggest.


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## Ranyhyn (21 October 2020)

dorsetladette said:



			That's quite a sweeping statement. You only have to look at the lead rein and first ridden rings and (small working hunter classes) to see that the welsh A (and small B) still dominant there. So not all welsh ponies are bred as you suggest.
		
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I have to agree here.  Ive had a welsh a and a welsh b (currently) who are awesome allrounders as FYFR and FR ponies for my 8yo daughter.


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## Hallo2012 (21 October 2020)

Tizer88 said:



			personally i think its not different to dog breeding, humans having babies. If you cant ensure you have the space, money or time to care for the life you are bringing into the world then dont do it,

Theyre not farmers breeding for meat to earn money. Theyre a stud (who usually are hobbyists ) if they dont have the space to run the foals on they should be banned by the breed society for irresponsible breeding.
the fact that people want good safe ponies is true, but as most of the people into welshies know, many studs breed from a stallion thats only proven to be able to run around a ring at high speed trotting - the mares are half feral and rarely have any "proven" life under their belt, they dpnt breed riding or driivng ponies truely, they breed to suit there own click of judges that again can sprint around a ring at high speed  ..... this is not what the people want.
gone are the days of a a versatile welsh pony who can do a few jobs. We all buy native irish ponies now as kiddies all rounders because the welsh are too flightly to do the job .

the breeders need a long hard look at themselves
		
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hoping to start a turning tide with mine, he is a B, (out of a mare who did the ridden job, by a RW winner)......already competing elem, schooling adv medium.

hoping he will prove he can perform and stay sound and sane and people will see he is worth the higher AI stud fee and isn't just a flash in the pan in hand winner


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## maggie62 (21 October 2020)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Advertised at 2 months, wouldn't have left the farm til weaning.
		
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I am aware of that.....but probably advertised for sale when weaned


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## Ranyhyn (21 October 2020)

Hallo2012 said:



			hoping to start a turning tide with mine, he is a B, (out of a mare who did the ridden job, by a RW winner)......already competing elem, schooling adv medium.

hoping he will prove he can perform and stay sound and sane and people will see he is worth the higher AI stud fee and isn't just a flash in the pan in hand winner 

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Having seen your lad thats the kind of pony I'd be looking to put on our mare if we ever wanted to breed.


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## dorsetladette (21 October 2020)

maggie62 said:



			I am aware of that.....but probably advertised for sale when weaned
		
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They have been advertised since at least July (on the stud website) from what I can see. Probably earlier, this is the type of stud who would usually have a line of people wanting their stock to show next season, not a 2 bit place. They have ponies going all over Europe and as far as New Zealand. 

I am not associated with them but have watched them through facebook and their names was good back in the 80's and 90's when my parents were breeding welsh ponies.


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## chocolategirl (21 October 2020)

ester said:



			you'd be needing to take more than three to make back the fuel cost of taking them surely.
		
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I didn’t know how many were involved, I couldn’t bear to watch, but I still maintain some are breeding specifically for slaughter 😏


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## chocolategirl (21 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			please elaborate? Reality and practicality seldom go hand in hand with CD. Turns out my post was actually fairly popular.
		
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I was merely pointing out that to be an animal lover, but still eat meat is called cognitive dissonance, of which I’m guilty🤷‍♀️ Wasn’t having a go ffs🤦‍♀️


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## Tiddlypom (21 October 2020)

Why the 😏?


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## HollyWoozle (21 October 2020)

ihatework said:



			Some people really do have their heads stuck in the sand don’t they?

I don’t think any animal lover, whether you support the studs actions or don’t, wouldn’t feel that sad heavy heart at the video. Lovely little weanlings, cute as anything, happy healthy and alert going to slaughter. Such a waste. But any small consolation is that they look really well cared for and I imagine their short time on this planet was pretty good.

But whoever said any meat eaters on this thread would be hypocrites to aggressively condone the studs actions are completely right. These colts are small fry compared to the culling and conditions many intensively farmed animals endure on a daily basis.

Sexed semen is unlikely to be a viable option for this type of stud. It’s not that cheap to do and also relies on AI. That would make a pregnancy start at around 1K per animal, rather than a natural covering

Finally to decimate a small stud who are probably only doing what is the most ethical thing for the animal at this point in time is despicable.

Bunny huggers I suggest you go and buy a nice big field and go pay pennies for the hundreds of overbred stock going for meat. Sprinkle them all in rainbow dust, bring in the trainers and churn out gold plated riding ponies.

Breeders, well actually there is a message here. If you are continually so overstocked that you have to send to abattoir, please rethink what you are doing. It not ok long term.
		
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I wanted to contribute to this thread and wasn't sure how to word my thoughts, but this post sums them up perfectly.


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

chocolategirl said:



			I didn’t know how many were involved, I couldn’t bear to watch, but I still maintain some are breeding specifically for slaughter 😏
		
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I highly doubt it; there's no margin at all in that. Horses are bred for meat in France; every other farm animal is also bred for meat.


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## TheMule (21 October 2020)

chocolategirl said:



			I didn’t know how many were involved, I couldn’t bear to watch, but I still maintain some are breeding specifically for slaughter 😏
		
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You wouldn’t breed Welsh ponies specifically for slaughter. There are meat breeds- big draft horses. You get paid per kg of meat, there is not much meat on section A!


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## milliepops (21 October 2020)

TheMule said:



			You wouldn’t breed Welsh ponies specifically for slaughter. There are meat breeds- big draft horses. You get paid per kg of meat, there is not much meat on section A!
		
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especially not a weanling, that really is a bad business plan


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## ihatework (21 October 2020)

milliepops said:



			especially not a weanling, that really is a bad business plan 

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New covid business
Spit roast Welsh A, suitable for groups of 6 who have piled on the lockdown pounds?! 😱


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## Tarragon (21 October 2020)

I have just, coincidently, seen the footage on FB. 
I have always said that lambs have the best life of all farm animals as they allowed to stay with mum, generally in large spaces, and can play with their friends. They have a short but very natural life. 
I feel the same way about these 3 ponies. They would have lived out in their herd with their dam and played and they looked well cared for and healthy.  I would far rather this short life to one where their future is not certain and a possible life of mistreatment and hardship, which I imagine is the motivation for the stud to deal with them in this way. 
This is not in the same league as any animal bred for meat in appalling conditions who have a miserable life and a miserable end.


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## Chinchilla (21 October 2020)

One is left wondering if those so up in arms over these foals also make sure to not buy battery farmed eggs and only purchase British-reared and slaughtered meat.


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## meleeka (21 October 2020)

Chinchilla said:



			One is left wondering if those so up in arms over these foals also make sure to not buy battery farmed eggs and only purchase British-reared and slaughtered meat.
		
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Absolutely.  I would not buy imported meat or eggs from battery hens. I’m not against breeding animals for meat in this country, if it’s done properly, but this isn’t what we are talking about here.  Horses aren’t farmed for their meat because there’s no need for it.  These people are breeding just  because they can and so they can pick a few good ones and dispose of the rest.  It’s really not the same as cows specifically bred for food.


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## ester (21 October 2020)

chocolategirl said:



			I didn’t know how many were involved, I couldn’t bear to watch, but I still maintain some are breeding specifically for slaughter 😏
		
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Ah well, the video does tend to bring important salient information in order for informed discussion.


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

meleeka said:



			Absolutely.  I’m not against breeding animals for meat in this country, but this isn’t what we are talking about here.  Horses aren’t farmed for their meat because there’s no need for it.  These people are breeding just  because they can and so they can pick a few good ones and dispose of the rest.  It’s really not the same as cows specifically bred for food.
		
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Well, we don't know that, do we? For whatever reason, there was not a buyer for these particular colts and the breeders decided to do right by them. I would err on the side of commending them, not chastisement. I'd reserve that for the people who abandon their unwanted animals or simply fail to take care of them at all.


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## Hallo2012 (21 October 2020)

Ranyhyn said:



			Having seen your lad thats the kind of pony I'd be looking to put on our mare if we ever wanted to breed.
		
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thank you


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## PapaverFollis (21 October 2020)

All three ponies looked in really good condition and despite being a little confused about where they were they weren't distressed to my eye. They looked sweet and optimistic.  Which of course makes it emotive to watch but logically it's actually a good thing.  I love Welsh As and it does leave a heavy heart watching the video but I'm also fully surrounded by very cute calves all year here. And lambs in spring.  And it's just the fate of individuals of the species that have hitched their evolutionary wagon to ours...  in that sense these species are very successful, even if life is short for a percentage of the individuals.   They could be out there competing with our palm oil farms instead.

I don't see any benefit in having a social media witch hunt of an individual stud farm that has given those youngsters a short but happy life and secured their future.  I can't imagine they are overjoyed at sending them for slaughter themselves. If they were offered for sale initially it's not like they are quietly disposing of the dross.

I'm sure there are wider issues to discuss re breeding/overbreeding etc but hounding individuals gets noone anywhere.  Except making the people doing the hounding feel raight smug about themselves.   Hey hey I saved the world today etc.


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## Tiddlypom (21 October 2020)

PapaverFollis said:



			I'm sure there are wider issues to discuss re breeding/overbreeding etc but hounding individuals gets noone anywhere. Except making the people doing the hounding feel raight smug about themselves. Hey hey I saved the world today etc.
		
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Well said.


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## honetpot (21 October 2020)

dorsetladette said:



			That's quite a sweeping statement. You only have to look at the lead rein and first ridden rings and (small working hunter classes) to see that the welsh A (and small B) still dominant there. So not all welsh ponies are bred as you suggest.
		
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I am one of those sad people who trawl through show catalogues looking at breeding, and certain studs and stallions tend to have more offspring entered, nearly every breed is now divided by type, the old fashioned working type, and the show type. If you are looking for a LR or FR Welsh, you are actually been off if it's not shown inhand as the traits that make it win in hand,  often are not the ones you are looking for in a LR, FR.
Our bog standard Welsh A, who is a full brother to a well known stallion, will do any job, but apart from WHP, he was never ever going to win anything, so never went anywhere until he was broken at three.
  What worries me, and it has always concerned me, is that certain genes dominate, they are further being culled for looks, or as they would like to say 'type', but the type in favour depends so much on the judge, who could also be a breeder of that same type. Anyone who has had a small pony produced will know that they are mainly ridden by adult riders, with great experience and more time than the average mum. I have a friend who spent a lot of money on buying and having ponies produced, mainly M&M smalls, and the pony that shows well and can be ridden and produced from home with a child rider is a very rare thing.
My failed Welsh A, who has done PC, hunted, broken to drive and put up with novice children would have been culled now, mainly because he was the wrong colour, but when he was young there was a better market.



PapaverFollis said:



			I'm sure there are wider issues to discuss re breeding/overbreeding etc but hounding individuals gets noone anywhere. Except making the people doing the hounding feel raight smug about themselves. Hey hey I saved the world today etc.
		
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You're right, but most people have no idea what goes on, everyone gives travellers stick for over breeding and but the WPCS  who registers the ponies must know who is over breeding.
When I left school I worked on a small private stud, and every pony bred would have a ridden future, they bred about four ponies a year, and most of the stud owners I know now only breed that amount, and they are sold through word of FB, its very rare they are actively advertised.
In 2008-9, I think every sensible stud owner didn't recover their mares and expected to perhaps have to hang on to stock.


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## chocolategirl (21 October 2020)

TheMule said:



			You wouldn’t breed Welsh ponies specifically for slaughter. There are meat breeds- big draft horses. You get paid per kg of meat, there is not much meat on section A!
		
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 It much meat in chickens or lambs either 😏


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## ester (21 October 2020)

there is compared to your garden chicken/sheep


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## Pedantic (21 October 2020)

luckyoldme said:



			This is where my brain and heart fall out with each other.
I know its the only way but it makes me so sad.
The other morning when i was refuelling I saw a cattle wagon.  I tried to force myself not to look but in the end I made eye contact. It makes me so sad. Still not sad enough to go vegetarian though.
		
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Me too, I wont be sorry when I leave this planet, fed up of being part of the problem and the Cancer of this planet.


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## Palindrome (21 October 2020)

TheMule said:



			We have no idea the full reason these weanlings ended up there. On the continent it's totally accepted that the bottom % of whatever you breed will go to the abattoir. The ones with wonky limbs which didn’t come right with some intervention, the ones with big overbites, the ones with a retained testicle that requires either running on or an expensive operation and countless other reasons, including just not being quality enough to fit the reputation of what you sell. Breeding is a lottery.
People can not sit behind their screens and say 'but why not give it away, my sister's friend's cousin would have had it' because that's how ponies fall into hard times.

FWIW I'm at that abattoir reasonably regularly but don’t often see weanlings. I haven’t been since Covid so perhaps things have changed.
		
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Everything gets tooted about of what happens on the continent. Most young horses at the abattoir are racehorses or horses bred for meat. Foals cannot be legally slaughtered and reputable breeders don't send their horses to the abattoir.


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			Well, we don't know that, do we? For whatever reason, there was not a buyer for these particular colts and the breeders decided to do right by them. I would err on the side of commending them, not chastisement. I'd reserve that for the people who abandon their unwanted animals or simply fail to take care of them at all.
		
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Delivering healthy, planned, well bred young stock to an abattoir is so far from doing right by them that I wonder if you and I are of the same species


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			Delivering healthy, planned, well bred young stock to an abattoir is so far from doing right by them that I wonder if you and I are of the same species
		
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They were unsaleable, which I am sure was not what was planned, but it is what happened. What do you suggest they should have done with them? And please don't say keep them and sell them trained and ridden; I'm sure if that was a viable option they would have done just that. What would be your solution?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			Delivering healthy, planned, well bred young stock to an abattoir is so far from doing right by them that I wonder if you and I are of the same species
		
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Well what do you suggest when there is nobody wanting them ? (not until they find they were despatched,  then a zillion homes were offered).

I call it responsible if they cannot be kept on.
They have sold copious animals since the mother passed away early this year, to cut numbers to a manageable amount.


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

They didn’t meet their reserve at one auction

They should have run them on, this stud has their own land and other means of income....it’s just not good enough.....


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## Elf On A Shelf (21 October 2020)

Why run them on? If they weren't wanted as weanlings what would make people buy them as yearlings? 2yos? 3yos? 4yos? If they were good enough to reproduce they would either have been kept and run on then used sold as a stallion or they would have been snapped up. It would cost them more to geld them than they are worth and again who would then buy a gelding youngster? There is still a huge stigma in native pony showing of geldings being geldings because they weren't good enough to be stallions. When actually I find a lot of show ring stallions are not good enough to be bred from and should have been gelded but a stallion has more presence. But that's a totally different arguement all together.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			They didn’t meet their reserve at one auction

They should have run them on, this stud has their own land and other means of income....it’s just not good enough.....
		
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You know that for a fact? 
Quite honestly,  you sound very embittered,  particularly in the applauding of the vilification of people you dont know, who are doing nothing illegal,  that you disagree with.


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			They didn’t meet their reserve at one auction

They should have run them on, this stud has their own land and other means of income....it’s just not good enough.....
		
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I'm afraid it's not up to you to decide what people do with their stock; there are a million reasons why it was not possible for them to keep the ponies, up to and including they just plain didn't wish to. I would far, far rather see people taking responsibility for their animals than neglecting them. Some of the most awful rescues I've been involved in have been from "animal lovers" who decided they loved their horses/dogs/cats too much to put them down, but then either couldn't be arsed to or didn't have the resources to look after them properly.


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			I'm afraid it's not up to you to decide what people do with their stock; there are a million reasons why it was not possible for them to keep the ponies, up to and including they just plain didn't wish to. I would far, far rather see people taking responsibility for their animals than neglecting them. Some of the most awful rescues I've been involved in have been from "animal lovers" who decided they loved their horses/dogs/cats too much to put them down, but then either couldn't be arsed to or didn't have the resources to look after them properly.
		
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Likewise it’s not up to you what I post


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## Palindrome (21 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			They were unsaleable, which I am sure was not what was planned, but it is what happened. What do you suggest they should have done with them? And please don't say keep them and sell them trained and ridden; I'm sure if that was a viable option they would have done just that. What would be your solution?
		
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Horses can take a while to sell. They should have included that in their plans. All the breeders I know geld their colts and just wait for them to be sold (or do a dispersal sale if needed).


Elf On A Shelf said:



			Why run them on? If they weren't wanted as weanlings what would make people buy them as yearlings? 2yos? 3yos? 4yos? If they were good enough to reproduce they would either have been kept and run on then used sold as a stallion or they would have been snapped up. It would cost them more to geld them than they are worth and again who would then buy a gelding youngster? There is still a huge stigma in native pony showing of geldings being geldings because they weren't good enough to be stallions. When actually I find a lot of show ring stallions are not good enough to be bred from and should have been gelded but a stallion has more presence. But that's a totally different arguement all together.
		
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They could be sold to riding schools at 3-4 yrs old if they are not of show quality.


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			You know that for a fact?
Quite honestly,  you sound very embittered,  particularly in the applauding of the vilification of people you dont know, who are doing nothing illegal,  that you disagree with.
		
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Embittered, sad, very sad in fact, disappointed...lots of words could apply to me right now


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			Embittered, sad, very sad in fact, disappointed...lots of words could apply to me right now
		
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Step away from the keyboard for a bit then, nothing you are ranting about is really helpful to anyone.


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			Likewise it’s not up to you what I post
		
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Oh, I'm delighted for you to post, but don't expect everybody to agree with you - just as I'm not expecting everybody to agree with me. See, it's a *discussion* forum - everyone gets to have a whole opinion to themselves (or very often, more than one...).


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Step away from the keyboard for a bit then, nothing you are ranting about is really helpful to anyone.
		
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er it’s a discussion...you cant really tell me what to do


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 October 2020)

Palindrome said:



			Horses can take a while to sell. They should have included that in their plans. All the breeders I know geld their colts and just wait for them to be sold (or do a dispersal sale if needed).

They could be sold to riding schools at 3-4 yrs old if they are not of show quality.
		
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The active partner stud owner dying early in the year, covid preventing people turning up to see stock, sales cancelled. Nobody had a crystal ball.
Not everyone has the finances to keep them for 4 more years and include backing and working them.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			er it’s a discussion...you cant really tell me what to do
		
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I appreciate that, but as you were stamping your feet, I thought I'd reply in similar vein 🙂


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

Palindrome said:



			Horses can take a while to sell. They should have included that in their plans. All the breeders I know geld their colts and just wait for them to be sold (or do a dispersal sale if needed).


They could be sold to riding schools at 3-4 yrs old if they are not of show quality.
		
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You do know that dispersal sales often result in horses going to slaughter, don't you? A lot of your "solutions" are just pie in the sky, "could", "should".....not reality I'm afraid.


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			The active partner stud owner dying early in the year, covid preventing people turning up to see stock, sales cancelled. Nobody had a crystal ball.
Not everyone has the finances to keep them for 4 more years and include backing and working them.
		
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They have a lot of their own land and WPCS went online


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## Equi (21 October 2020)

According to Facebook (so not the best source) they were all parrot mouth. Which could explain why they didn’t and we’re unlikely to ever sell in a showing based industry.


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## conniegirl (21 October 2020)

Palindrome said:



			Horses can take a while to sell. They should have included that in their plans. All the breeders I know geld their colts and just wait for them to be sold (or do a dispersal sale if needed).


They could be sold to riding schools at 3-4 yrs old if they are not of show quality.
		
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you do realise that most riding schools have very little use for a 3 yr old 12hh pony? Most want 8 or 9 yrs old and minimum of 12.2hh


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			They have a lot of their own land and WPCS went online
		
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I have a lot of my own land. I am in the process of reducing my horses as I have no desire to keep slogging through winters; it is not compulsory to own animals you have not the resources to look after.


Frumpoon said:



			[Content removed]
		
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...and you're neither mature enough nor polite enough to engage in a discussion with.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			[Content removed]you just aren’t bright enough to argue with
		
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Would you mind keeping personal insults to yourself?
You may be put out that breeders are not doing what you want, but there is absolutely no need to get personal.  Please try stepping away from the keyboard for a while eh?


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Would you mind keeping personal insults to yourself?
You may be put out that breeders are not doing what you want, but there is absolutely no need to get personal.  Please try stepping away from the keyboard for a while eh?  

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oh you can call me names though yes?


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## conniegirl (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			[Content removed]
		
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She isn’t the one that has resorted to angry and offensive personal insults


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

conniegirl said:



			She isn’t the one that has resorted to angry and offensive personal insults
		
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Calling me embittered????


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## Amymay (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			[Content removed]
		
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Oh come on. There’s absolutely no need for that whatsoever.  This thread is a really interesting discussion.  I’m firmly in the ‘sad’ about the little foals fate.  But other posters who are perhaps less sentimental make some excellent points.

Step away or play nice - _please._


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			[Content removed]
		
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TBF I must say that TFF has not so far struck me as being unintelligent. You seem very angry and worked up, perhaps you should try some breathing exercises and a bit of zen. Just a suggestion.


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## KittenInTheTree (21 October 2020)

Stick them on Ignore, Frumpoon, it's not worth your energy.


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			Calling me embittered????
		
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Um, you called yourself bitter......


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			Um, you called yourself bitter......
		
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I agreed that a lot of adjectives could be used about me


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

KittenInTheTree said:



			Stick them on Ignore, Frumpoon, it's not worth your energy.
		
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How do I do that?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			Calling me embittered????
		
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You said you were, in previous post #196
I rest my case. Please desist from personal insults. Thank you.


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			I agreed that a lot of adjectives could be used about me
		
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Well, there you go, TFF is doing just that.....


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## Sandstone1 (21 October 2020)

Its very sad but I fear this sort of thing will be happening more before this crisis is over.


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## KittenInTheTree (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			How do I do that?
		
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Click on the user's name, and a little window will pop up with options in it for Following and Ignoring, etc.


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## SO1 (21 October 2020)

Nobody likes to hear of young healthy ponies sent to slaughter due to not being being flashy enough for the show ring. 

However if the owner of ponies died and the people that inherited them didn't want them and could not sell them then they there may not be many options. 

Especially if the land and resources have been split between family members so the new owners of the ponies no longer have the same resources available. It only takes one family member to want to sell their share of the land and it could very difficult.


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## photo_jo (21 October 2020)

Anyone who has ever bought a horse/pony has bought a horse/pony that someone bred to sell to make money from or because they didn't want it for whatever reason.


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## tristar (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			They didn’t meet their reserve at one auction

They should have run them on, this stud has their own land and other means of income....it’s just not good enough.....
		
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yes i agree they should have run them on, the costs would have been small, and you are right its not good enough

i still have the catalogue from the coed coch dispersal sale, somewhere,  some of those ponies were the best ever,


i think it is a mean, selfish and cruel thing to put down a heathy foal


a lady i knew once bought some foals that were going to slaughter, they were beautiful, i can see them now lovely healthy full of life, the sort i would have died for as kid, its why i feel strongly about this

i  think if you put the mare in foal you should take responsibility to give the foals the chance to attain adulthood and become the best they can

and its true i don`t know all the circumstances, but the meanness of it is what grates, what sort of person can do things like that


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## SO1 (21 October 2020)

If they were all parrot mouth then maybe a result of poor breeding practice. I believe line breeding or in breeding is quite common place in some studs to try and get more ponies with certain desirable qualities. This sort of breeding practice comes with a higher risk of deformaties and weakness than if you breed unrelated animals. 

If this is the case then this is even worse than the culling of the healthy ponies as they are breeding knowing there is a high risk of deformed offspring that may be not able to be sold and need to be dispatched.




equi said:



			According to Facebook (so not the best source) they were all parrot mouth. Which could explain why they didn’t and we’re unlikely to ever sell in a showing based industry.
		
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## tristar (21 October 2020)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			The active partner stud owner dying early in the year, covid preventing people turning up to see stock, sales cancelled. Nobody had a crystal ball.
Not everyone has the finances to keep them for 4 more years and include backing and working them.
		
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they should have made some plan for future of he ponies in the event of death,


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## scats (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			[Content removed]
		
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That’s really unkind and out of order.  I understand this an emotive topic, but I don’t think people should be flinging personal insults at others.


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## Equi (21 October 2020)

Yes


SO1 said:



			If they were all parrot mouth then maybe a result of poor breeding practice. I believe line breeding or in breeding is quite common place in some studs to try and get more ponies with certain desirable qualities. This sort of breeding practice comes with a higher risk of deformaties and weakness than if you breed unrelated animals.

If this is the case then this is even worse than the culling of the healthy ponies as they are breeding knowing there is a high risk of deformed offspring that may be not able to be sold and need to be dispatched.
		
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 yes it’s a practice that I wholly disagree with. Which limits my stallion choices as the ones I like always seem to be my mares brother 😅


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## SO1 (21 October 2020)

The person who bred these ponies is dead.

She cannot be held responsible for the actions of those who inherited the ponies.



tristar said:



			yes i agree they should have run them on, the costs would have been small, and you are right its not good enough

i still have the catalogue from the coed coch dispersal sale, somewhere,  some of those ponies were the best ever,


i think it is a mean, selfish and cruel thing to put down a heathy foal


a lady i knew once bought some foals that were going to slaughter, they were beautiful, i can see them now lovely healthy full of life, the sort i would have died for as kid, its why i feel strongly about this

i  think if you put the mare in foal you should take responsibility to give the foals the chance to attain adulthood and become the best they can

and its true i don`t know all the circumstances, but the meanness of it is what grates, what sort of person can do things like that
		
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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

tristar said:



			yes i agree they should have run them on, the costs would have been small, and you are right its not good enough

i still have the catalogue from the coed coch dispersal sale, somewhere,  some of those ponies were the best ever,


i think it is a mean, selfish and cruel thing to put down a heathy foal


a lady i knew once bought some foals that were going to slaughter, they were beautiful, i can see them now lovely healthy full of life, the sort i would have died for as kid, its why i feel strongly about this

i  think if you put the mare in foal you should take responsibility to give the foals the chance to attain adulthood and become the best they can

and its true i don`t know all the circumstances, but the meanness of it is what grates, what sort of person can do things like that
		
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I will take a punt and say that we all feel very sad indeed that these young ponies were sent to slaughter, however we don't have all the facts as to why they were not bought by "pet" homes at the sale. It sounds like a very sad story all around, if the breeder has died then the sellers were not the ones responsible for producing them.


tristar said:



			they should have made some plan for future of he ponies in the event of death,
		
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And so now you want to write the will for the breeder too? Bizzare....


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

KittenInTheTree said:



			Click on the user's name, and a little window will pop up with options in it for Following and Ignoring, etc.
		
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Big relief, many thanks


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## Amymay (21 October 2020)

Interestingly, the foals may have been under six months old - which I think is too young to slaughter...


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## LEC (21 October 2020)

I have been following this today

1) Nobody addresses the elephant in the room which is about indiscriminate breeding for no market.
2) I find the hypocrisy quite outstanding as this happens every day with Dartmoor and Exmoor foals. 
3) This is common on the continent - value/health reasons


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## SO1 (21 October 2020)

Who knows what she said in her will . Maybe she said if they can't find a good home for the ponies PTS



tristar said:



			they should have made some plan for future of he ponies in the event of death,
		
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## tristar (21 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			I will take a punt and say that we all feel very sad indeed that these young ponies were sent to slaughter, however we don't have all the facts as to why they were not bought by "pet" homes at the sale. It sounds like a very sad story all around, if the breeder has died then the sellers were not the ones responsible for producing them.

And so now you want to write the will for the breeder too? Bizzare....
		
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well no not really, however i don`t think its bizarre to think of the fate of your animals in the event of death, i thought most people did that


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## tristar (21 October 2020)

SO1 said:



			Who knows what she said in her will . Maybe she said if they can't find a good home for the ponies PTS
		
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possibly because she knew she was not breeding a good product perhaps?


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## Tiddlypom (21 October 2020)

LEC said:



			I have been following this today

1) Nobody addresses the elephant in the room which is about indiscriminate breeding for no market.
2) I find the hypocrisy quite outstanding as this happens every day with Dartmoor and Exmoor foals.
3) This is common on the continent - value/health reasons
		
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I think that these points have all been raised earlier on in this thread. They are valid points.


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## Elf On A Shelf (21 October 2020)

equi said:



			Yes

yes it’s a practice that I wholly disagree with. Which limits my stallion choices as the ones I like always seem to be my mares brother 😅
		
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I went out looking for a grey colt foal or yearling. One very prominent stud that I looked at as I know they use the lines I want I now wouldnt touch with a gazillion foot barge pole. Full brother and sister pairings, mother and son, father and daughter pairings all to maintain the grey colour. I was absolutely horrified! Shetland btw not Welsh in this case.

Shetland colt foals used to reguarly go through the auctions for 10gns a piece. They went for meat. Though there was a roaring trade for about 5 years for their skins to be turned into gloves and handbags in Italy. The Wee Coloured Job was a meat money buy - 50gns -because he was the wrong colour and gender. But he was very good quality.

You then get the new forest and dartmoor drifts. A lot of these ponies are bought by zoo's to feed the big cats etc. Mostly foals. But no one kicks up a fuss about this because it is one animal going to feed another.


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## tristar (21 October 2020)

LEC said:



			I have been following this today

1) Nobody addresses the elephant in the room which is about indiscriminate breeding for no market.
2) I find the hypocrisy quite outstanding as this happens every day with Dartmoor and Exmoor foals. 
3) This is common on the continent - value/health reasons
		
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well to me it slightly different as i was bought up with welsh ponies, and i do consider them to be the best of all the pony breeds, so it touches a spot with me, and i have had just about every other breed of pony at one time or another, but the welsh are coed coch planed and coed coch shon the best i have ever seen and the section b`s bred by miss de beaumont, truly outstanding and exquisite ponies , then you think it comes to this, just binning them,  its hard to take, and too hard just let it all pass, without comment


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## conniegirl (21 October 2020)

tristar said:



			possibly because she knew she was not breeding a good product perhaps?
		
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Any responsible owner will have a clause in thier will about if a good home cannot be found the animal should be PTS.

i have it in mine for my pony and dogs.

would far rather them PTS than end up at auction for an uncertain fate or to potentially end up on the downward spiral. Rescues are stuffed to the gunnels and can’t take more animals.


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## Elf On A Shelf (21 October 2020)

tristar said:



			well to me it slightly different as i was bought up with welsh ponies, and i do consider them to be the best of all the pony breeds, so it touches a spot with me, and i have had just about every other breed of pony at one time or another, but the welsh are coed coch planed and coed coch shon the best i have ever seen and the section b`s bred by miss de beaumont, truly outstanding and exquisite ponies , then you think it comes to this, just binning them,  its hard to take, and too hard just let it all pass, without comment
		
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Coed Coch were the ponies to have in your bloodlines. They truly were some of the greatest ponies.


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## tristar (21 October 2020)

conniegirl said:



			Any responsible owner will have a clause in thier will about if a good home cannot be found the animal should be PTS.

i have it in mine for my pony and dogs.

would far rather them PTS than end up at auction for an uncertain fate or to potentially end up on the downward spiral. Rescues are stuffed to the gunnels and can’t take more ponies.
		
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but that s the crux of the matter, they should only be breeding very good ponies and not too many,   so they will find a home, and pts is different to slaughter


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## tristar (21 October 2020)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Coed Coch were the ponies to have in your bloodlines. They truly were some of the greatest ponies.
		
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there is an internet  page on the coed coch stud with some really old  pics of some fabulous ponies!


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## conniegirl (21 October 2020)

tristar said:



			but that s the crux of the matter, they should only be breeding very good ponies and not too many,   so they will find a home, and pts is different to slaughter
		
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mine is absolute top quality and won a lot but if no one i know and trust can take him he will be PTS.

these ponies could well have had the same fate ordained in the deceased persons will, but its a commercial enterprise so cost of disposal will come into it. This is by far the cheapest way to do it and is quite himane. To pts and dispose of at home can be several hundred per pony, not money most of these smaller studs will have available in a year like this.


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## tristar (21 October 2020)

r


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## conniegirl (21 October 2020)

tristar said:



			but that s the crux of the matter, they should only be breeding very good ponies and not too many, studs  so they will find a home, and pts is different to slaughter
		
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You’ve already said that


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## SO1 (21 October 2020)

Actually this does not really happen with NF now there are reduced numbers of stallions out on the forest and they are all top quality ones due to the inspections required for them to go out. They also manage the breeding to prevent rare bloodline being lost and to reduce the risk of related ponies breeding. It is all very strictly managed.

The work the breed society has done to reduce number and increase quality as meant prices for ponies have increased and more people are considering them as riding and driving ponies. I think NFPC has done well as they are not just pushing the breed as show ponies as once you get to that point, you are breeding ponies that become too hot perhaps for the average child or leisure rider to manage as all rounders as the show ring presence may not always translate well into other activities that people might want to do 

NF are a rare breed now. 

I think possibly the issue with Welsh ponies now is that they are getting a reputation as being spooky and sharp and that will put people off buying them for their children or adults buying them as all rounders. Especially as the number of people looking for good hacking horses and ponies seem to be increasing. I would never consider one as I think they are too flighty and sharp, the stereotype has put me off. It was the one breed I would not have considered when I was looking at natives 13 years ago. I ended up with my NF, very handsome but not a big moving pony, but he has safely taken me to some really big shows where I can enjoy taking part even if there are hot air balloons firing up, the red arrows flying over head or in once case a gazebo that we were standing near to taking off and floating through the air sending ponies and competitions off in all directions whilst he stood quietly wondering what all the fuss was about!

Native ponies once bred for a very different job are now being repurposed and the main market where the money and glory for breeders comes is the show ring and the types ponies that do well in show ring often need that bit of sparkle that may make then harder for the average amateur to handle. The ones not flashy looking enough to make it in the show ring but who have been bred for that market may still have show ring temperament making it hard to find them an alternative home.





Elf On A Shelf said:



			You then get the new forest and dartmoor drifts. A lot of these ponies are bought by zoo's to feed the big cats etc. Mostly foals. But no one kicks up a fuss about this because it is one animal going to feed another.
		
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## EarsofaSnowman (21 October 2020)

Foal is eaten in Iceland. A country that is extremely passionate about their horses, and maintaining their quality and their health. But they are also very pragmatic people that make good use of anything that doesn't make the grade. I would far rather unwanted stock, of any kind, be made full use of where practical.


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

tristar said:



			possibly because she knew she was not breeding a good product perhaps?
		
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None of us has the slightest idea (or right) to know what provisions anyone has made in the event of their death, nor is it anyone's business. Even the best breed/bloodline has the occasional substandard foal/pup/whatever.


conniegirl said:



			Any responsible owner will have a clause in thier will about if a good home cannot be found the animal should be PTS.

i have it in mine for my pony and dogs.

would far rather them PTS than end up at auction for an uncertain fate or to potentially end up on the downward spiral. Rescues are stuffed to the gunnels and can’t take more animals.
		
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Some people don't have a will at all, but it's really not up to random strangers to pass judgment on people's funerary arrangements.


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

Ears of a horse said:



			Foal is eaten in Iceland. A country that is extremely passionate about their horses, and maintaining their quality and their health. But they are also very pragmatic people that make good use of anything that doesn't make the grade. I would far rather unwanted stock, of any kind, be made full use of where practical.
		
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It does sound sensible when you put it like that .... but I do just keep going back to the faces of those ponies in that wretched video and it’s so upsetting, it just doesn’t seem right


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 October 2020)

chocolategirl said:



			I was merely pointing out that to be an animal lover, but still eat meat is called cognitive dissonance, of which I’m guilty🤷‍♀️ Wasn’t having a go ffs🤦‍♀️
		
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I wasn’t having a go either 🤔 I was asking for a wider answer but if you want to go flounce then feel free 🤷🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			It does sound sensible when you put it like that .... but I do just keep going back to the faces of those ponies in that wretched video and it’s so upsetting, it just doesn’t seem right
		
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I agree with you, it is upsetting; so what's your solution?


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## Palindrome (21 October 2020)

Ears of a horse said:



			Foal is eaten in Iceland. A country that is extremely passionate about their horses, and maintaining their quality and their health. But they are also very pragmatic people that make good use of anything that doesn't make the grade. I would far rather unwanted stock, of any kind, be made full use of where practical.
		
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To be fair, Icelandic people tend to eat stuff that most wouldn't touch. Whale? Puffin? Rotten shark?
And after that people go on and on about the French eating snails...


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## NinjaPony (21 October 2020)

I really do think that the WPCS needs to have a serious rethink. There are too many ponies being bred, not enough demand and too many ponies kept in rubbish conditions by breeders. Haven't watched the video because I can't bear to. Irrational or not, as the owner of a welsh A who could easily have ended up somewhere like that, I just can't. 

I think the in-hand market has a lot to answer for too. I took mine to a WCPS silver medal show once-never ever again. I saw such bad practices that I swore I'd never put mine in that kind of environment again. 

It's so upsetting and so wasteful. I don't have the answer but endlessly churning out ponies can't be sustainable.


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## SO1 (21 October 2020)

My impression is that most studs want to breed competition ponies and horses, they want the next HOYS super star, a top quality dressage, event horse or show jumper. Only some of their stock will be have this potential.

The problem then is those that don't make the grade are also often also are not suitable for the more novice rider or perhaps someone wanting an easy ride. Look at failed race horse for example. There are lots of people on here looking for horses or ponies for sale who are struggling to find a nice sane sound easy all rounder that they can take to some competitions but still have fun out hacking with friends too or that is suitable for a nervous or novice child. There are a real shortage of horses and ponies with the right sort of temperament to be that easy going best friend who will safely do a bit of everything at RC/PC level. Very few studs are breeding this sort of horse and pony. There is no fame or glory coming from breeding these very important sought after horses and ponies.


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

SO1 said:



			My impression is that most studs want to breed competition ponies and horses, they want the next HOYS super star, a top quality dressage, event horse or show jumper. Only some of their stock will be have this potential.

The problem then is those that don't make the grade are also often also are not suitable for the more novice rider or perhaps someone wanting an easy ride. Look at failed race horse for example. There are lots of people on here looking for horses or ponies for sale who are struggling to find a nice sane sound easy all rounder that they can take to some competitions but still have fun out hacking with friends too or that is suitable for a nervous or novice child. There are a real shortage of horses and ponies with the right sort of temperament to be that easy going best friend who will safely do a bit of everything at RC/PC level. Very few studs are breeding this sort of horse and pony. There is no fame or glory coming from breeding these very important sought after horses and ponies.
		
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There is also no profit.....I always said that if I was ever to get back into breeding/producing horses it would be the all-rounder, anyone's-ride type of animal, but the reality is that it takes far, far to long to get the horse to that stage and it's not possible to make it pay.


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## EarsofaSnowman (21 October 2020)

Palindrome said:



			To be fair, Icelandic people tend to eat stuff that most wouldn't touch. Whale? Puffin? Rotten shark?
And after that people go on and on about the French eating snails...
		
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Don't knock it til you've tried it. Although I can't in all honesty recommend the fermented shark.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 October 2020)

There is now a petition going against the stud to stop them being able to register foals. I find things like that disgusting. People are struggling and if they have had a bereavement as reported then this sort of thing is just plain wrong. Talk about kicking people when they are down. So much for #bekind.


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## Goldenstar (21 October 2020)

People seem to getting more and more spiteful.


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## Elf On A Shelf (21 October 2020)

Ears of a horse said:



			Foal is eaten in Iceland. A country that is extremely passionate about their horses, and maintaining their quality and their health. But they are also very pragmatic people that make good use of anything that doesn't make the grade. I would far rather unwanted stock, of any kind, be made full use of where practical.
		
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My OH ate foal whilst we were in Iceland, said it was ok, quite rich though. He has lived and worked with horses his entire life. When we went pony trekking the place we went to couldn't even tell me my ponies name. They see them as a business investment not pets.


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## ester (21 October 2020)

tristar said:



			but that s the crux of the matter, they should only be breeding very good ponies and not too many,   so they will find a home, and pts is different to slaughter
		
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How do we know that what they bred last year wasn't 'too many' but that the current extraordinary situation has meant that it ended up being too many in a way that no one could predict?


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## Palindrome (21 October 2020)

This is my 4 years old welsh part bred and she is a fab kids pony, has carried children from 8 months to a petite 11 years old. There is also a purebred section A at the local riding school and she does baby pony the same as the other ponies. Welsh can make good kids pony and mine has a good pop on her too so would suit a kid who would want to jump too.


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## Amymay (21 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			There is now a petition going against the stud to stop them being able to register foals. I find things like that disgusting. People are struggling and if they have had a bereavement as reported then this sort of thing is just plain wrong. Talk about kicking people when they are down. So much for #bekind.
		
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If the foals were under age a petition won’t be needed. Everyone will be prosecuted. The studs reputation is already is hugely damaged, again without the need for a petition.


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## Elf On A Shelf (21 October 2020)

And then you get people who think that this is ok ...


__
		http://instagr.am/p/CGmcqOXgt1g/


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 October 2020)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			And then you get people who think that this is ok ...


__
		http://instagr.am/p/CGmcqOXgt1g/


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Just no 😠 NO NO NO NO NO 😠😠


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## Cloball (21 October 2020)

Goldenstar said:



			People seem to getting more and more spiteful.
		
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People have always been spiteful they just have an easy accessible anonymous platform to do it on now.


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			There is now a petition going against the stud to stop them being able to register foals. I find things like that disgusting. People are struggling and if they have had a bereavement as reported then this sort of thing is just plain wrong. Talk about kicking people when they are down. So much for #bekind.
		
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That seems to me to be a sensible course of action


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			That seems to me to be a sensible course of action
		
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Wow.....


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 October 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			That seems to me to be a sensible course of action
		
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You are just out for all the negative attention today 🙄 disgusting


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## ester (21 October 2020)

yeah cos unregistered foals sell really well. . .


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

ester said:



			yeah cos unregistered foals sell really well. . .
		
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They could stop breeding? There are other jobs ....


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			You are just out for all the negative attention today 🙄 disgusting
		
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You might not have noticed but I’m really not a lone voice


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## ester (21 October 2020)

I thought you said it wasn't their job and they had other means of income?


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## cumbriamax (21 October 2020)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			There are a number of studs who will send colts to be despatched if they havent placed them, not everyone can keep or wants to keep colts on.
I did see the clip. The women screeching who were filming were very aggressive.
		
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Does anyone know who was doing the filming? Was it an organised group or just individuals?

I just wonder how they knew that these foals were going to the slaughter on that day or was it random coincidence.

I haven't seen the video as don't do Facebook so don't know the stud.


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## meleeka (21 October 2020)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			You then get the new forest and dartmoor drifts. A lot of these ponies are bought by zoo's to feed the big cats etc. Mostly foals. But no one kicks up a fuss about this because it is one animal going to feed another.
		
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This reminds of when I went to Howlets and there was a Honey Badger devouring a horses leg. It was an incredible sight to see (pretty sure the leg came from a
Cob).
The New Forest ponies are a world away from when I was young.  They were overbred then and loads went for slaughter.  Because breeding was unchecked the ponies looked awful in the winter and were badly put together. A friend bought a colt for £3.50 one year and he’s twenty something now.   They’ve addressed the issue in recent years and now the quality is better and there is less wastage.  The stories coming out of the Welsh moors is also awful so I think the breeding of Welsh ponies needs to be looked at, in order to make them more desirable.


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## Frumpoon (21 October 2020)

cumbriamax said:



			Does anyone know who was doing the filming? Was it an organised group or just individuals?

I just wonder how they knew that these foals were going to the slaughter on that day or was it random coincidence.

I haven't seen the video as don't do Facebook so don't know the stud.
		
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I thought just individuals


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## windand rain (21 October 2020)

waving placards of some animal rights group I think so possibly not a coinsidence


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## ester (21 October 2020)

The quick response to pssm in foresters definitely put the society in a good light too.

It was shared via one of the anti-racing groups so I presumed people involved in that looking for TBs
edited to add 'ban the grand national' though I might be well wrong with that assumption.


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## Dave's Mam (21 October 2020)

tristar said:



			you can of course use the smaller ones to cross and develop bigger ponies even horses, some of mine have good welsh pony, proper hill bred pedigree about 4 generations ago, and are 16, 2 hh
		
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Don't even start me on that.  *Grrrrr*


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## ester (21 October 2020)

ah so the OP is a 'bristol animal save' volunteer organiser and vegan activist (her words not mine)

https://upload.facebook.com/bristol...eline_context_item_source=1172631738&fref=tag


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## Equi (21 October 2020)

ester said:



			ah so the OP is a 'bristol animal save' volunteer organiser and vegan activist (her words not mine)

https://upload.facebook.com/bristol...eline_context_item_source=1172631738&fref=tag

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so the type of animal lover who will only ever be happy when no animals are born. Aren’t those type the ones who don’t want animals being people’s pets anyway and they’re better off dead? The foals are not going to be someone’s slave now!


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## Peregrine Falcon (21 October 2020)

The NF breed society and their associated partners addressed over breeding and quality of stock on the open forest some years ago. This is still on going. There has been considerable investment in the Bealieu Road saleyard. 

The drifts are a chance for commoners and agisters to manage and check the semi feral ponies.

Anyone wishing more information about NF stock management please feel free to contact me.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 October 2020)

ester said:



			ah so the OP is a 'bristol animal save' volunteer organiser and vegan activist (her words not mine)

https://upload.facebook.com/bristol...eline_context_item_source=1172631738&fref=tag

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Hmmmmm says it all. Vegans can be the worst for yelping about cruelty etc. I have nothing against anyone’s choice of diet as long as you don’t try and Interfere with mine. Country lass born and bred and what goes on my plate is only my business. I have vegan friends who would never try and demean me for my omnivorous diet. However you do get the loud mouths.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 October 2020)

cumbriamax said:



			Does anyone know who was doing the filming? Was it an organised group or just individuals?

I just wonder how they knew that these foals were going to the slaughter on that day or was it random coincidence.

I haven't seen the video as don't do Facebook so don't know the stud.
		
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The abattoir has protesters as an almost permanent daily feature outside. Usually just 2 or 3 but they film each and every vehicle going in. 
Unfortunately this trailer had the stud name on it so they got very vocal once they saw ponies coming out up the ramp.


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## rabatsa (22 October 2020)

Am I the only one that thinks that the stud ARE responsible breeders? It takes courage to admit that the ponies will be better off dead than in unsuitable homes.  As for minimum slaughter age, bunkum, there is no minimum age to die only recommended weaning age for foals that have a life to live.


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## Goldenstar (22 October 2020)

I have no idea if they are responsible or not .


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## ycbm (22 October 2020)

rabatsa said:



			Am I the only one that thinks that the stud ARE responsible breeders? It takes courage to admit that the ponies will be better off dead than in unsuitable homes.
		
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I agree with you, if at the time the mares were impregnated there was a reasonable expectation that there would be a market for at least half of the foals born to be sold as as entire males or they expected to be able to keep until older and sell as geldings. 
.


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## tristar (22 October 2020)

SO1 said:



			Actually this does not really happen with NF now there are reduced numbers of stallions out on the forest and they are all top quality ones due to the inspections required for them to go out. They also manage the breeding to prevent rare bloodline being lost and to reduce the risk of related ponies breeding. It is all very strictly managed.

The work the breed society has done to reduce number and increase quality as meant prices for ponies have increased and more people are considering them as riding and driving ponies. I think NFPC has done well as they are not just pushing the breed as show ponies as once you get to that point, you are breeding ponies that become too hot perhaps for the average child or leisure rider to manage as all rounders as the show ring presence may not always translate well into other activities that people might want to do 

NF are a rare breed now. 

I think possibly the issue with Welsh ponies now is that they are getting a reputation as being spooky and sharp and that will put people off buying them for their children or adults buying them as all rounders. Especially as the number of people looking for good hacking horses and ponies seem to be increasing. I would never consider one as I think they are too flighty and sharp, the stereotype has put me off. It was the one breed I would not have considered when I was looking at natives 13 years ago. I ended up with my NF, very handsome but not a big moving pony, but he has safely taken me to some really big shows where I can enjoy taking part even if there are hot air balloons firing up, the red arrows flying over head or in once case a gazebo that we were standing near to taking off and floating through the air sending ponies and competitions off in all directions whilst he stood quietly wondering what all the fuss was about!

Native ponies once bred for a very different job are now being repurposed and the main market where the money and glory for breeders comes is the show ring and the types ponies that do well in show ring often need that bit of sparkle that may make then harder for the average amateur to handle. The ones not flashy looking enough to make it in the show ring but who have been bred for that market may still have show ring temperament making it hard to find them an alternative home.
		
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fab ponies to deal with, i saw a nf stallion at cadre noir in france working at prix st georges ridden by a 14 year old girl

welsh are in my experience spooky, well not all, but then they are feral i have them in my horses for their courage, movement and conformation and natural balance


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## tristar (22 October 2020)

Dave's Mam said:



			Don't even start me on that.  *Grrrrr*
		
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 why?      used them as an outcross because they are the best, too late to change now that was 50 years ago sighhhhhhhhhhh


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## Equi (22 October 2020)

rabatsa said:



			Am I the only one that thinks that the stud ARE responsible breeders? It takes courage to admit that the ponies will be better off dead than in unsuitable homes.  As for minimum slaughter age, bunkum, there is no minimum age to die only recommended weaning age for foals that have a life to live.
		
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Both yes and no. Yes because they’re making sure the ponies don’t suffer or get passed around low end type of yards (and no before anyone jumps on me that does not mean every horse worth £1 suffers) and no because they brought them in a marked trailer and have with that one action likely ruined their entire life’s work and next years foals will too end up here because of the protests and petitions (so they can’t ever advertise on Facebook again)


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## pansymouse (22 October 2020)

TheMule said:



			Some people honestly believe the alternative of a life of passing through low end dealers/ sales is better. Life at any cost.
I don’t like it when such young ones go through, but these ponies were in good condition, have clearly had a nice start and have had a very quick end. They are the lucky ones IMO
		
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I agree but expressing that on Facebook would get me lynched - the sentimentalists are running at fever pitch.


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## Ranyhyn (22 October 2020)

Wow things got pretty crazy here last night.


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## ester (22 October 2020)

tristar said:



			why?      used them as an outcross because they are the best, too late to change now that was 50 years ago sighhhhhhhhhhh
		
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you may have missed the recent exmoor x clydesdale situ that I suspect daves mam was referring to.


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## Cortez (22 October 2020)

Ranyhyn said:



			Wow things got pretty crazy here last night.
		
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Yeah, it was interesting until the OP stuck everyone who didn't agree with her on UI......


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## honetpot (22 October 2020)

equi said:



			Both yes and no. Yes because they’re making sure the ponies don’t suffer or get passed around low end type of yards (and no before anyone jumps on me that does not mean every horse worth £1 suffers) and no because they brought them in a marked trailer and have with that one action likely ruined their entire life’s work and next years foals will too end up here because of the protests and petitions (so they can’t ever advertise on Facebook again)
		
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 I don't really think so, show people usually do not buy through general advertising. All they have to do is change the stud prefix, and phone number, and they are a new entity, if they did advertise openly. There are only a few sad people like me who track broodmares and what they have previously produced.
 I think more worrying for them is the rumour is that they were sent because they were parrot mouthed.  I bought a pony that was parrot mouthed and it was not a problem to him, but you would not use a stallion producing so many, or buy a filly as  potential broodmare down line sired by one.


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## Ranyhyn (22 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			Yeah, it was interesting until the OP stuck everyone who didn't agree with her on UI......
		
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Well that's not conducive to personal growth is it.  I thought we were all talking very maturely and reasonably.  I understand why people would be sad, I understand why it was done.  Cant you not be both?


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## ihatework (22 October 2020)

Ranyhyn said:



			Well that's not conducive to personal growth is it.  I thought we were all talking very maturely and reasonably.  I understand why people would be sad, I understand why it was done.  Cant you not be both?
		
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Unfortunately these extreme animal rights types can’t be. All you need to do is listen to the deranged shrieking on the video to understand that. If these people put their energy into calmly and strategically trying to influence change in key areas of animal management they would do far greater good in the world. Unfortunately their behaviours mean the vast majority of people just treat them as nutjobs


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## CanteringCarrot (22 October 2020)

I am stil a wee bit baffled why it is ok to breed certain animals for slaughter such as cows, chickens, lambs, deer, etc. but not ok for ponies to be slaughtered. They weren't bred for slaughter in mind, more that it could be a possibility if they weren't sold on the pet/sport horse market. 
Yes, the stud could thoroughly analyze their customer base and market while reducing breeding/only breeding what will sell, but you just cannot guarantee that. The horse market can really dip and dive at times. 

The stud could foot the bill while a bunch of unsaleable ponies run around feral in some field on their property, but will they always be able to afford that? Is going to slaughter the really the worst fate? The ponies don't know. Horses don't think about "tomorrow" or longevity of their lives.

Also, if any of you eat veal and are all up in arms about these ponies being slaughtered, you're full of it.


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## Equine_Dream (22 October 2020)

That video made me terribly terribly sad.  I don't think this is ok at all. I sympathise these are difficult times, but I feel the stud owner has let these poor babies down massively.
If they couldn't be sold on then why not turn out until next spring? And if they had no other choice other than to be pts then why not do it at home? Familiar surroundings and nose in a bucket? Not hauled for god knows how long to a stranger place stinking of death.
I'm truly sickened by the human race on times 😔


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## SO1 (22 October 2020)

I agree I don't think that what happened to the Pumphill Dartmoors stopped people buying them and this is nowhere near as bad as that. At least the ponies were in good condition in this case.

The showing fraternity tend to back their own people and if they are well in with the WPCS then people will still buy from them, the desire for a pony to win at high levels will in many cases mean that people will turn a blind eye to how they are bred including how ponies that are not at the level for that market are disposed of.

I expect the market for section A foals to those who are not interested in the breed but just looking for a small pony foal is quite limited. 

I do agree that the parrot mouth rumour is more likely to be problematic I don't know how many foals they breed a year but even it is a 100 to have three in one crop is quite a lot and if by the same stallion then they may need to look carefully at the lines to prevent breeding more of them.


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honetpot said:



			I don't really think so, show people usually do not buy through general advertising. All they have to do is change the stud prefix, and phone number, and they are a new entity, if they did advertise openly. There are only a few sad people like me who track broodmares and what they have previously produced.
I think more worrying for them is the rumour is that they were sent because they were parrot mouthed.  I bought a pony that was parrot mouthed and it was not a problem to him, but you would not use a stallion producing so many, or buy a filly as  potential broodmare down line sired by one.
		
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## SO1 (22 October 2020)

In normal circumstances I would say yes, give them another year, halter break them and get them handled and gelded and then they are easier to sell on.

However maybe finances do not allow for this, the breeder had died, maybe the family who have inherited the ponies have to sell land to pay for inheritance tax....this is not a normal situation as the person who owned the ponies has died. 



Equine_Dream said:



			That video made me terribly terribly sad.  I don't think this is ok at all. I sympathise these are difficult times, but I feel the stud owner has let these poor babies down massively.
If they couldn't be sold on then why not turn out until next spring? And if they had no other choice other than to be pts then why not do it at home? Familiar surroundings and nose in a bucket? Not hauled for god knows how long to a stranger place stinking of death.
I'm truly sickened by the human race on times 😔
		
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## CanteringCarrot (22 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			That video made me terribly terribly sad.  I don't think this is ok at all. I sympathise these are difficult times, but I feel the stud owner has let these poor babies down massively.
If they couldn't be sold on then why not turn out until next spring? And if they had no other choice other than to be pts then why not do it at home? Familiar surroundings and nose in a bucket? Not hauled for god knows how long to a stranger place stinking of death.
I'm truly sickened by the human race on times 😔
		
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It possible they could not afford to turn them out until next spring. I am not sure of the circumstances. I also do not know, aside from their gender (?) what made them unable to be sold. I can only assume little demand.

I am not opposed to a horses body being used for meat and other products, as we can't technically bury them here and at least you know the body is to be of some use. We have horse based pet food, lanolin, chewing bones for dogs, and so on. Not sure how this is different from a cow. Arguably a horse is more intelligent but people really anthromorphasize. I think a better way may have been to shoot them (not terribly expensive) then have the remains hauled off for rendering, but I don't know the logistics of all that and why they saw going direct to the abattoir as a better option.


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## Ranyhyn (22 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			That video made me terribly terribly sad.  I don't think this is ok at all. I sympathise these are difficult times, but I feel the stud owner has let these poor babies down massively.
If they couldn't be sold on then why not turn out until next spring? And if they had no other choice other than to be pts then why not do it at home? Familiar surroundings and nose in a bucket? Not hauled for god knows how long to a stranger place stinking of death.
I'm truly sickened by the human race on times 😔
		
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It is terribly sad, thats a given.  But honestly, a producer of this ilk is not in the market of overwintering an animal which is not paying its way or more or less guaranteed to pay its way eventually (ie a mare) in this climate you simply cannot afford to take a punt on anything.  This is going to happen more.  If its not worth money or going to be worth good money its going to get knocked on the head pretty sharpish over the coming months.

Great time for those of you with the money and correct situation to lie in wait to snap up fairly good animals.


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## Equine_Dream (22 October 2020)

SO1 said:



			In normal circumstances I would say yes, give them another year, halter break them and get them handled and gelded and then they are easier to sell on.

However maybe finances do not allow for this, the breeder had died, maybe the family who have inherited the ponies have to sell land to pay for inheritance tax....this is not a normal situation as the person who owned the ponies has died.
		
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They would hardly have fetched a good price going for meat...
I realise the circumstances are difficult but I wouldn't want that on my conscious. 
I also wonder how many of their mares are back in foal for next year 🤔


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## Equine_Dream (22 October 2020)

I would add, I understand completely why people are upset. Seeing three beautiful and (on the surface) healthy foals being taken into an abbatoir is not a nice sight. BUT I think the witch hunt on the stud is slightly counter productive. If they go out of business then what happens to their horses then? There may be a lorry load arriving at the local slaughter house shortly afterwards...


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## ester (22 October 2020)

It's not about them fetching a good price, it's how much money is put into them that wouldn't otherwise need to be spent, such as PTS at home and disposal.


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## Equine_Dream (22 October 2020)

ester said:



			It's not about them fetching a good price, it's how much money is put into them that wouldn't otherwise need to be spent, such as PTS at home and disposal.
		
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Ok but then I wonder what price they were offered at for private sale? Were they offered at the same price as they fetched going for meat? I doubt it. And yes there is a risk they could end up in a poor home but that is a risk of any horse that is sold.


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## ycbm (22 October 2020)

I think the meat argument is a question of intent.  If your intent is to breed beef,  sheep, pork and to create milk,  then I have no issue with the product going into the food chain as humanely as possible. 

But if your intention is to breed pet ponies,  and you do so with complete lack of concern as to how you might have to dispose of an unwanted surplus,  then I have an issue with that.  (We don't know if this stud did that or if their circumstances changed.)

I would prefer no animals to end their lives in an abattoir.  But I eat meat and accept that it is part of that.  I try not to drink much milk because of the calves being taken off their mothers at a day old.

But yes,  I find I do have an issue with not caring about giving any horse the best end it can have,  and nobody would class taking weanlings to an abattoir as that.



PS the trial by social media is an awful,  unacceptable part of the Internet age.
.


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## rabatsa (22 October 2020)

My husband has a saying "The first loss is the smallest"  he says this a lot about animals.


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## Errin Paddywack (22 October 2020)

_Equine Dream said "If they couldn't be sold on then why not turn out until next spring? And if they had no other choice other than to be pts then why not do it at home? Familiar surroundings and nose in a bucket? Not hauled for god knows how long to a stranger place stinking of death". _

Very emotive words but somewhat exaggerated. If the foals had been sold they would, to use your words 'have been hauled for god knows how long' to a new home and that might well have been further than from Wales to Bristol.  What is the difference where they end up?  As for the slaughterhouse 'stinking of death', I have been there and can assure you it definitely doesn't and just as well as it is in a built up area.  When I was there, there were ponies and horses penned all round the approach to the killing chamber and all were totally unconcerned.  One was an Exmoor which grieved me.  I took two ponies there and they were no more upset than they would have been at a show.  The only persons upset were me and my husband.  To have them put down at home would cost in the region of £200 each in my experience so that would have been about £600.   I hate the idea of lovely well bred foals being put down full stop but have lived long enough and in the farming world to be realistic.
A friend of mine bought a very nice NF filly at Melton Mowbray sales back in the 1980's.  She came out of a pen of 6 or 8.  All had been bought as foals by a farmer who then ran them on with his cattle till a sensible age to sell.  Two went to private homes and the others went on the meat wagon at the end of the day.  We were horrified as they were all lovely quality ponies.  Back then there were always meat buyers at the local sales.  I hope things have changed since then.  Much better that ponies go direct from the stud to the abattoir than trawled round the sales as they used to be.


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## milliepops (22 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			I think the meat argument is a question of intent.  If your intent is to breed beef,  sheep, pork and to create milk,  then I have no issue with the product going into the food chain as humanely as possible.

But if your intention is to breed pet ponies,  and you do so with complete lack of concern as to how you might have to dispose of an unwanted surplus,  then I have an issue with that.  (We don't know if this stud did that or if their circumstances changed.)

I would prefer no animals to end their lives in an abattoir.  But I eat meat and accept that it is part of that.  I try not to drink much milk because of the calves being taken off their mothers at a day old.

But yes,  I find I do have an issue with not caring about giving any horse the best end it can have,  and nobody would class taking weanlings to an abattoir as that.



PS the trial by social media is an awful,  unacceptable part of the Internet age.
.
		
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I get what you're saying about intent, but when it comes down to it, if people are prepared to send cows and sheep to an abattoir then I really can't see the difference in terms of the animal's experience, what species it is.  to the animal, the intent of the owner breeding it has little relevance.  People can wring their hands about it all but the cow didn't want to be bred to be eaten any more than the foal wanted to be sent to the abattoir (leaving aside neither of them knew anything about it until the last moments).  it's all kind of meaningless IMO.

People intentionally kill animals all the time. I'm not sure what makes these ones more special tbh


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## honetpot (22 October 2020)

If you look hard enough some foals were sold this year,
https://www.voofla.com/GB/Newbury/145992772145283/Springbourne-&-Blanche-Welsh-Mountain-Ponies
Some were on here,
https://farmersmarts.auctionmarts.c...zU5MDgyLWU1MWQtNDY3Ni05Yzg1LTQxNzNhNTViNGYzMA
As I have spent most of my equestrian life buying other peoples cast offs, usually as youngstock, and making the best of them, I find it difficult to believe unless something was wrong with them, they could not have been found knowledgable homes as stores.
A quick google and there are no ads for a dispersal sale, which if it's a well known stud is how you attract buyers, if you are closing down.

To me it's about honesty, every cow in my paddocks will end up on someones fork, and some friends are a bit off with me about it, but anyone is welcome to see how they are kept and they are kept cleaner in conditions than some horses stables. I have my ponies shot at home, and I am quite happy to defend my choices. Your 'shop front' should not be just a front.


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## ester (22 October 2020)

Just for accuracy they weren't from wales, they are based near newbury and the abattoir is in wiltshire not bristol. About 35 miles trip one way.


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## Errin Paddywack (22 October 2020)

Thanks ester .  I did rather make an assumption about where the stud and abattoir were based.  When I went it was Potters at Bristol.  35 miles is not very far at all.  I used to go much further to show mine.


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## windand rain (22 October 2020)

Used to go to Melton mowbray sales regularlly every year from september to january  groups of weanling colts were driven off wagons by the dozen. Several of them would have three or four sales stickers on most were exhausted and under nurished by the end of winter with total despair in their eyes. They were almost exclusively New Forest but an odd exmoor or darmoor pony might be amongs them. There are big studs of rare breed ponies that send to slaughter ponies that have prohibited colours and markings perfect foals but unlucky enough to have white stockings or a blaze or white higher than the fetlock male or female. They are never offered for sale they go straight to slaughter once weaned. I am pretty sure Exmoors that dont meet the breed standard go the same way even if its only a slight deviation. I do not think it is right but the whooha this one consignment of three colts has caused does the pony breeds no good at all. They are even more likely now to end up in dire straights there simply are not enough knowledgeable homes for them. You could say well do not breed but sadly it is a tradition that the land management and hill farmers have followed from generation to generation and as someone else commented big cats have to eat too. Equines going to slaughter is nothing new and it is not possible to save them all. In fact every horse owner is supporting this as there are probably three or four horses in dire straight to every one that has a loving home


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## ester (22 October 2020)

HP what a nice looking bunch of kids ponies on the voofla link.


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## Equine_Dream (22 October 2020)

Errin Paddywack said:



_Equine Dream said "If they couldn't be sold on then why not turn out until next spring? And if they had no other choice other than to be pts then why not do it at home? Familiar surroundings and nose in a bucket? Not hauled for god knows how long to a stranger place stinking of death". _

Very emotive words but somewhat exaggerated. If the foals had been sold they would, to use your words 'have been hauled for god knows how long' to a new home and that might well have been further than from Wales to Bristol.  What is the difference where they end up?  As for the slaughterhouse 'stinking of death', I have been there and can assure you it definitely doesn't and just as well as it is in a built up area.  When I was there, there were ponies and horses penned all round the approach to the killing chamber and all were totally unconcerned.  One was an Exmoor which grieved me.  I took two ponies there and they were no more upset than they would have been at a show.  The only persons upset were me and my husband.  To have them put down at home would cost in the region of £200 each in my experience so that would have been about £600.   I hate the idea of lovely well bred foals being put down full stop but have lived long enough and in the farming world to be realistic.
A friend of mine bought a very nice NF filly at Melton Mowbray sales back in the 1980's.  She came out of a pen of 6 or 8.  All had been bought as foals by a farmer who then ran them on with his cattle till a sensible age to sell.  Two went to private homes and the others went on the meat wagon at the end of the day.  We were horrified as they were all lovely quality ponies.  Back then there were always meat buyers at the local sales.  I hope things have changed since then.  Much better that ponies go direct from the stud to the abattoir than trawled round the sales as they used to be.
		
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You're right there isn't a difference between them being hauled to a new home or the abbatoir, other than the fact they are being taken to be pts. This is what I take issue with as it imo causes unnecessary upset when the deed could be done at home. It is obviously necessary to transport these ponies to new homes, but quite unnecessary to travel them to be pts. Other than as you say, it's cheaper, which is imo a pretty rubbish excuse for what has happened to these 3 foals.
Now with regards to my comment about the smell, I am curious. Are the animals slaughtered in separate areas? Are the ones waiting for the deed to be done kept at a distance where they would not hear/smell anything that would alert them to what is about to happen? I really hope this is the case?


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## Orangehorse (22 October 2020)

I think it is the same for large scale breeding in any country.  If the animal has poor conformation and would not sell, and would be a bad advertisement for the stud.


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## Ranyhyn (22 October 2020)

These people are running a business.  Cheaper is totally a very good reason to do it that way round.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			You're right there isn't a difference between them being hauled to a new home or the abbatoir, other than the fact they are being taken to be pts. This is what I take issue with as it imo causes unnecessary upset when the deed could be done at home. It is obviously necessary to transport these ponies to new homes, but quite unnecessary to travel them to be pts. Other than as you say, it's cheaper, which is imo a pretty rubbish excuse for what has happened to these 3 foals.
Now with regards to my comment about the smell, I am curious. Are the animals slaughtered in separate areas? Are the ones waiting for the deed to be done kept at a distance where they would not hear/smell anything that would alert them to what is about to happen? I really hope this is the case?
		
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Perhaps not pleasant reading, but here are current regs in this Link
A horse cannot be killed within sight of another horse or where there are any remains of another animal. (Eg, a previously killed horse).

To add, in some respects,  if more than one to put down, then it's more swift in my opinion at abbatoir than doing 1 at a time at home as unless using different areas each time, as one needs pts and winching, before the next one has same procedure.  As I say tho, just my opinion, from past experiences.


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## Equine_Dream (22 October 2020)

Ranyhyn said:



			These people are running a business.  Cheaper is totally a very good reason to do it that way round.
		
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Not when it comes to the welfare of your stock, or ensuring they have the best end, and as ymcb put it so well, ending up in an abbatoir is definitely not the best end for these foals.


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## Ranyhyn (22 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			Not when it comes to the welfare of your stock, or ensuring they have the best end, and as ymcb put it so well, ending up in an abbatoir is definitely not the best end for these foals.
		
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Who measures the best end?  Viewers on Facebook? 

Are these foals halter broke? Can they be shot at home without being? I dont know.  Maybe someone will.


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## Chinchilla (22 October 2020)

ester said:



			Just for accuracy they weren't from wales, they are based near newbury and the abattoir is in wiltshire not bristol. About 35 miles trip one way.
		
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which stud is it?


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## Chinchilla (22 October 2020)

never mind found it 
(I'm assuming it's the one who have deleted their facebook page, lol)


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## Equine_Dream (22 October 2020)

Ranyhyn said:



			Who measures the best end?  Viewers on Facebook?

Are these foals halter broke? Can they be shot at home without being? I dont know.  Maybe someone will.
		
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Ok Ranyhyn if you see no issue with this then we clearly have very different views on what is a morally acceptable way for animals to be treated.
I actually keep my horses on livery yard which also runs as a Welsh D stud. This years foals were halter broken and leading within a week. It just takes someone to care enough to put the effort in. Unfortunately I can't see how effort or care was invested in these poor babies.


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## Teaboy (22 October 2020)

I couldn’t watch it, I think it’s awful. But for me no more awful then the millions of other animals slaughtered every day around the world. That’s why I only eat plant based.


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## Tiddlypom (22 October 2020)

Those ranty activists hurling abuse in person and on line at responsible folk who take their unwanted equines to a reputable abbatoir will be directly contributing to a rise in more cases like this.



Happy now?

This foal, despite all the odds being stacked against him, did survive after a huge amount of veterinary intervention and dedicated care.

https://news.rspca.org.uk/2015/03/02/gizmo-update-four-month-foal-getting-stronger-every-day/


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## Chinchilla (22 October 2020)

WHAT @Tiddlypom SAID. A thousand times over

Because you know what? 
Yeah, it's heartbreaking, those poor babies having to die, of course it is. They didn't ask to be born in the first place - let alone die - and I must admit for the prices horses still seem to be going for, I AM surprised they couldn't be found homes for. But arguably,  as has already been said, it is better that they had a quick end than were passed around or dumped to become someone else's problem, or to starve in a ditch; slating the stud really achieves nothing except that, as I observed upthread, they have deleted their facebook page so will undoubtedly become harder to reach. This by extension means they cannot advertise ponies! So all the veganazis have achieved is potentially risking the lives of more ponies and the livelihoods of the people. (And I DO think it is, given the broader context of Coronavirus etc., perhaps simply a matter of finances that they were sent to the abbatoir: our welfare standards in Britain are high, so if someone is struggling financially do they bankrupt themselves paying £200 a pony for home euthanasia or get £50 for sending them to the abbatoir, whilst still ensuring the animals get a quick and painless dispatch?) I think the reaction of the animal 'activists' online has been done with almost no thought as to its consequences and I do not condone it, it certainly will not benefit the animals - or people - in the longterm, which of course when discussing breeding horses you have to think about: it is only sensible when bringing into the world an animal with a lifespan of 30 years. 

*ducks below parapet again*


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## Ranyhyn (22 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			Ok Ranyhyn if you see no issue with this then we clearly have very different views on what is a morally acceptable way for animals to be treated.
.
		
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We probably do.  I produce animals for human consumption so to me, animals can be a commodity.  While some people elevate the importance of certain animals to align with their personal values, others do not.  I am yet to hear a sensible argument for why its any different for my lambs to go to market, than these ponies.  I do not employ someone to come to my farm to knock 60 odd lambs on the head.  I dont know anyone that does.  Maybe its not allowed in order for animals to go into the food chain - someone better read here will hopefully be able to shed light.  These ponies are not loved pets.  They may be to you but you are not their owner and ultimately their owner has done exactly what she/he has every right to do.  Wether or not the GP would prefer to see these ponies wintered out in luxury, or held lovingly whilst a vet administers a lethal dose is totally immaterial.  They've done nothing wrong, factually or morally.


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## luckyoldme (22 October 2020)

I think for me its the conflicting messages.
On one hand you've got a proud owner in the ring eith a beautiful looking horse . I would look up to someone who looked after a horse and produced it like that.
On the other hand in order to get that one horse in the ring the same person will knowingly breed many more..knowing full well where some of them will end up.
Thats someone I wouldnt look up to.


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## AdorableAlice (22 October 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			Those ranty activists hurling abuse in person and on line at responsible folk who take their unwanted equines to a reputable abbatoir will be directly contributing to a rise in more cases like this.

View attachment 57507

Happy now?

This foal, despite all the odds being stacked against him, did survive after a huge amount of veterinary intervention and dedicated care.

https://news.rspca.org.uk/2015/03/02/gizmo-update-four-month-foal-getting-stronger-every-day/

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The 3 ponies knew no suffering.  A statement which cannot be said about the coloured foal in the picture.  Gizmo’s story and recovery was nothing short of a miracle achieved by outstanding vets.

If more people had the guts to make sensible decisions over unwanted, elderly and infirm horses there would be a lot less suffering.  As winter bites, wages are lost or reduced through the pandemic, hay and straw become expensive and short, we will be seeing a lot of unwanted horses and a lot of suffering.


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## tristar (22 October 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			Those ranty activists hurling abuse in person and on line at responsible folk who take their unwanted equines to a reputable abbatoir will be directly contributing to a rise in more cases like this.

View attachment 57507

Happy now?

This foal, despite all the odds being stacked against him, did survive after a huge amount of veterinary intervention and dedicated care.

https://news.rspca.org.uk/2015/03/02/gizmo-update-four-month-foal-getting-stronger-every-day/

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looks just like our pony when we first got him


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## shortstuff99 (22 October 2020)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say those 'ranty vegans' don't want to see dumped and/or abused horses abandoned in ditches either. Rather a better regulated system that doesn't lead to the overproduction of horses in the first place. Or even more radical would be no more horses or farm animals bred full stop, care for the ones currently alive and then the end of domestic species. 

I will caveat that those aren't my views (obviously as I still ride horses) but I can support the first view of better regulating the breeding.


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## HashRouge (22 October 2020)

shortstuff99 said:



			I'm going to go out on a limb here and say those 'ranty vegans' don't want to see dumped and/or abused horses abandoned in ditches either. Rather a better regulated system that doesn't lead to the overproduction of horses in the first place. Or even more radical would be no more horses or farm animals bred full stop, care for the ones currently alive and then the end of domestic species.

I will caveat that those aren't my views (obviously as I still ride horses) but I can support the first view of better regulating the breeding.
		
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I'm glad you said this, as I was planning to write something very similar! A lot of people here may disagree with the "ranty vegans" but it is utterly ridiculous to blame them for the actions of people who abuse, starve and dump horses. Let's blame the person who actually commits the crime, shall we!


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## Equine_Dream (22 October 2020)

Shortstuff and HashRouge well said both!


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## Cortez (22 October 2020)

luckyoldme said:



			I think for me its the conflicting messages.
On one hand you've got a proud owner in the ring eith a beautiful looking horse . I would look up to someone who looked after a horse and produced it like that.
On the other hand in order to get that one horse in the ring the same person will knowingly breed many more..knowing full well where some of them will end up.
Thats someone I wouldnt look up to.
		
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Cattle and sheep and in fact most meat animals, the best examples are also lovingly produced for the showring, and are beautiful looking animals. Still end up on a plate.


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## tallyho! (22 October 2020)

I do sometimes wonder why I don't despatch my crockpot and give another horse a chance...


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## Sandstone1 (22 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			Cattle and sheep and in fact most meat animals, the best examples are also lovingly produced for the showring, and are beautiful looking animals. Still end up on a plate.
		
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Just out of interest, would you say the same of dogs or cats?  In some countries they are are eaten,  so is that ok with you?


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## Cortez (22 October 2020)

Sandstone1 said:



			Just out of interest, would you say the same of dogs or cats?  In some countries they are are eaten,  so is that ok with you?
		
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I used to live in Korea. I have no problem with eating any meat, just so long as it has been kindly reared and humanely dispatched, so no, I do not condone eating animals that have been barbarically slaughtered.


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## Cloball (22 October 2020)

If anyone wants to buy a tiny welsh pony there is anther sale on the 30th. Or is that perpetuating the cycle?


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## windand rain (22 October 2020)

As long as an animal is not allowed to feel pain then they are by different cultures deemed food no I would not eat cat or dog or any other carnivore not too keen on pig as they can also eat each other. What I  feel is necessary is a quick painless and if possible stress free death. Abbatoirs are inspected and have a vet on site. Meat from stressed animals is tainted and can be rejected. The foals in the video were a tiny microscopic point of an iceberg of the need to cull to prevent suffering. I have been on this planet long enough to know those three foals are likely lucky ones compared to what will happen to hundreds more


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## windand rain (22 October 2020)

Cloball said:



			If anyone wants to buy a tiny welsh pony there is anther sale on the 30th. Or is that perpetuating the cycle?
		
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I bet all those protesting about the three colts will be firmly keeping their hands in their pockets


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## honetpot (22 October 2020)

Ranyhyn said:



			These ponies are not loved pets
		
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Perhaps not, but I think it's disingenuous to describe them one way, which suggests they are bred as companion animals, and then treat them like farm livestock, which the whole purpose of breeding the majority of them is to eat. It would not go down well with their end target market, parents buying children riding ponies. A friend of mine owned a pony and showed a pony from the stud.
https://www.voofla.com/GB/Newbury/145992772145283/Springbourne-&-Blanche-Welsh-Mountain-Ponies
These would not be cheap ponies, I think its more about devaluing the rest of their stock than welfare.


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## milliepops (22 October 2020)

Cloball said:



			If anyone wants to buy a tiny welsh pony there is anther sale on the 30th. Or is that perpetuating the cycle?
		
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i've been keeping half an eye on the sales tbh because I'm still in 2 minds about what to do with my foal/buying her a buddy. But I'd prefer a D, and they have been making better money.. and my lorry is off the road anyway so I can't collect anything. this time last year we had always planned to go to the sales and pick up a weanling but.. then covid...


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## honetpot (22 October 2020)

windand rain said:



			I bet all those protesting about the three colts will be firmly keeping their hands in their pockets
		
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 I am not protesting but I would have given them more than they probably got.


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## Cloball (22 October 2020)

I keep my eye on as well for something ridden but most have been unbacked or section A&B, there have definitely not been as many C&Ds as I have seen before. I imagine most have been sold already by this point. 


milliepops said:



			i've been keeping half an eye on the sales tbh because I'm still in 2 minds about what to do with my foal/buying her a buddy. But I'd prefer a D, and they have been making better money.. and my lorry is off the road anyway so I can't collect anything. this time last year we had always planned to go to the sales and pick up a weanling but.. then covid...
		
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## rabatsa (22 October 2020)

Buying a foal is only the start of the costs.  In many cases a cheap pony is not a valued pony.


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## Elf On A Shelf (22 October 2020)

milliepops said:



			i've been keeping half an eye on the sales tbh because I'm still in 2 minds about what to do with my foal/buying her a buddy. But I'd prefer a D, and they have been making better money.. and my lorry is off the road anyway so I can't collect anything. this time last year we had always planned to go to the sales and pick up a weanling but.. then covid...
		
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Fell Pony sales at the end of the month *cough*


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## honetpot (22 October 2020)

rabatsa said:



			Buying a foal is only the start of the costs.  In many cases a cheap pony is not a valued pony.
		
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 Since I only ever the budget to buy cheap ponies and horses, but to me they have been priceless, and repaid the time I have spent on them. It's not what they cost, that determines how they are valued


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## milliepops (22 October 2020)

honetpot said:



			Since I only ever the budget to buy cheap ponies and horses, but to me they have been priceless, and repaid the time I have spent on them. It's not what they cost, that determines how they are valued
		
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couldn't agree more!


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## ycbm (22 October 2020)

milliepops said:



			I get what you're saying about intent, but when it comes down to it, if people are prepared to send cows and sheep to an abattoir then I really can't see the difference in terms of the animal's experience, what species it is.  to the animal, the intent of the owner breeding it has little relevance.  People can wring their hands about it all but the cow didn't want to be bred to be eaten any more than the foal wanted to be sent to the abattoir (leaving aside neither of them knew anything about it until the last moments).  it's all kind of meaningless IMO.

People intentionally kill animals all the time. I'm not sure what makes these ones more special tbh 

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There no better way of killing animals for meat. There is a better way of killing three tiny ponies.  

Even as a meat eater, I would wish for the best end an animal can have.  Farm animals get the best that can practically be done for them now we have cameras everywhere .  Those foals,  to me, herded into an abattoir using a door to push them in,  didn't get that. 
.


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## milliepops (22 October 2020)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Fell Pony sales at the end of the month *cough*
		
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erm.... even more likely to be out of budget I'd have thought....?


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## milliepops (22 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			There no better way of killing animals for meat. There is a better way of killing three tiny ponies. 

Even as a meat eater, I would wish for the best end an animal can have.  Farm animals get the best that can practically be done for them now we have cameras everywhere) .  Those foals,  to me, herded into an abattoir using a door to push them in,  didn't get that.
.
		
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I do understand your POV and I can definitely see a logic in it.  though as a non meat eater I'm still not sure I would differentiate between the 2, I don't find it any more acceptable that meat animals get that treatment just because it's the norm (though I would like to distance myself from the veganazis  mentioned earlier, I do my thing and let others do theirs)


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## Gloi (22 October 2020)

tristar said:



			why?      used them as an outcross because they are the best, too late to change now that was 50 years ago sighhhhhhhhhhh
		
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I used to see section As covers by a 16h stallion in my young days, no wonder they needed a twitch on.


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## Tiddlypom (22 October 2020)

By reducing the choices for the humane and cost effective destruction of unwanted equines the ranty activists will absolutely be responsible for more dumped Gizmos.

Of course we also want to address the overproduction of equines, but properly run abattoirs who humanely cull unwanted stock are an important part of equine welfare, like it or not.

Force them into shutting down/refusing to take equines in, and watch the suffering increase.


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## teddypops (22 October 2020)

honetpot said:



			Since I only ever the budget to buy cheap ponies and horses, but to me they have been priceless, and repaid the time I have spent on them. It's not what they cost, that determines how they are valued
		
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totally agree!


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## tristar (22 October 2020)

Gloi said:



			I used to see section As covers by a 16h stallion in my young days, no wonder they needed a twitch on.
		
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got the wrong end of the stick

i was referring to our  welsh foundation ponies 13. 2 hh then covered by welsh cross small tb  14.2hh then crossed  with arab  and  with other horses, they gradually got bigger over the generations, some are by our stallion who is 15,2hh have  come out at 16.2hh out of 16.1hh mares so its going the other way round here really

i was really meaning to use the small mares to cross for something bigger then cross again, the second cross being the actual product of a marketable pony

small pony and big horse, i don`t know who thought that was a good idea, i certainly don`t


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## tristar (22 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			There no better way of killing animals for meat. There is a better way of killing three tiny ponies.  

Even as a meat eater, I would wish for the best end an animal can have.  Farm animals get the best that can practically be done for them now we have cameras everywhere .  Those foals,  to me, herded into an abattoir using a door to push them in,  didn't get that. 
.
		
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agree


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## tristar (22 October 2020)

rabatsa said:



			Buying a foal is only the start of the costs.  In many cases a cheap pony is not a valued pony.
		
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i got one in a swap for two very scruffy saddles, he grew into a beautiful horse and won loads


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## rabatsa (22 October 2020)

honetpot said:



			Since I only ever the budget to buy cheap ponies and horses, but to me they have been priceless, and repaid the time I have spent on them. It's not what they cost, that determines how they are valued
		
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You know what you are doing.

Many people think the paying £2 for a pony is an easy way to get one for the children.  I have had to rescue some shetlands that were kept in a pub cellar as they were cheap.


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## honetpot (22 October 2020)

rabatsa said:



			You know what you are doing.

Many people think the paying £2 for a pony is an easy way to get one for the children.  I have had to rescue some shetlands that were kept in a pub cellar as they were cheap.
		
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I think the recent spate of buyers who have paid substantial sums for animals and have ended up being mismatched shows, it's not the cost of the animal that guarantees the most suitable home, particularly young stock.
I buy colts, usually someone has bought a pretty foal, and for what ever reason they end up rehoming it when it's about nine to ten months, when its starts nipping and objecting to  what is for them substandard management system, which is often done of with good intentions. By this time it's not a pretty foal, and it often looks like a cut and shut, no one wants it, and it's winter.
They have often paid at least twice what I buy it for, often more, they are all have registration papers, all by good quality stallions and were bought by the original buyer straight from the stud. I do not buy poor quality stock, just stock that's in the wrong place or wrong job. I do sometimes wonder if the stud asked the right questions about how it was going to be kept etc., or did they just want to sell it while it had the foal factor.
I do it as a hobby, it's far cheaper I know to my cost, than breeding yourself.
You could say that anyone who buys any young animal should have the knowledge and the means to care for it, no matter how much they paid for it.


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## Wishfilly (22 October 2020)

I sort of have a problem with the argument that slaughter is kinder than the alternative of ponies ending up as welfare cases- I accept it's a true argument, but I feel that it's possible to say both are unacceptable, and both could be reduced by not overbreeding. 

It does sound like in this individual case, there are factors such as the death of the stud owner and obviously covid which may have led to an unusual situation. And I don't think a witch-hunt is the answer. In this stud's case it may be a one off in a very difficult situation, and it's worth erring on the side of compassion/caution.

But I'm also well aware how hill ponies are still indiscriminately bred on Dartmoor, and it sounds like the situation in Wales is not dissimilar, except showing and desire for particular markings etc come into it as well. Overbreeding contributes to welfare issues- maybe not in the case of these specific ponies, but in the case of some dams and foals and the adult horses those foals grow up to be. Even if some breeders are sending their unwanted stock to abattoirs they're still contributing to the culture that it's ok to breed a large number of ponies and just sell the best. 

I do accept it's hypocritical to object to this and still eat dairy, but I don't think it's ok to look at something and say it must be ok because there are worse alternatives. It's a bit idealistic, but I sort of want the best life possible for every foal that's born, and not the least worst outcome. I'm not naive to the realities of comercial breeding, so I'm not shocked by this, but I don't like that it goes on.

I do also think that line breeding can have a lot to answer for, in terms of sub-standard foals being produced.


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## scats (22 October 2020)

Cloball said:



			If anyone wants to buy a tiny welsh pony there is anther sale on the 30th. Or is that perpetuating the cycle?
		
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I’m keeping an eye out for a little ‘un at the moment.  Partly as a companion and partly as a riding pony for my honorary nephew and niece.


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## shirl62 (22 October 2020)

tristar said:



			yes i agree they should have run them on, the costs would have been small, and you are right its not good enough

i still have the catalogue from the coed coch dispersal sale, somewhere,  some of those ponies were the best ever,


i think it is a mean, selfish and cruel thing to put down a heathy foal


a lady i knew once bought some foals that were going to slaughter, they were beautiful, i can see them now lovely healthy full of life, the sort i would have died for as kid, its why i feel strongly about this

i  think if you put the mare in foal you should take responsibility to give the foals the chance to attain adulthood and become the best they can

and its true i don`t know all the circumstances, but the meanness of it is what grates, what sort of person can do things like that
		
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Agree totally with this. I feel so sad that their little live

My feelings exactly...I maybe a sentimental old fool but hey that's the way I am and hate to see those little babies discarded like trash...I am in bits over this...


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## laura_nash (22 October 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Not sure how this is different from a cow. Arguably a horse is more intelligent but people really anthromorphasize.
		
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I also don't get the arguments to why this is different from a cow.  From reading this thread one of those was "they are only doing it as a hobby", well plenty of people farm cows as a hobby / additional source of income alongside a full-time job around here (including me).  Another was "they are being bred for pets rather than meat", well I don't get why that is so different as after all we don't need to eat beef to survive.

I would very definitely argue about a horse being more intelligent than a cow.  I suspect my cows are just as intelligent as my horse, and they certainly have just as much individual character.  Anyone who has been around tame cows or chickens has to wonder why it is okay to take them to slaughter but different for horses.

Its fair enough for a "vegan activist" to get up in arms about this incident, they are presumably equally distressed about farming, but all these people piling on who happily drink commercially produced milk where the male calves are removed and killed at a day old are total hypocrites IMO.


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## Daughter of the Moor (22 October 2020)

Polos Mum said:



			I am definitely in the naïve camp then if this is an every year occurrence for some studs. I'm surprised it makes economic sense to keep the mare and provide even basic care through pregnancy just to get meat money if they are colts.
It's not a tragedy and it certainly isn't the worst that could happen - it just seems all a little pointless. If they couldn't sell them this year - when horses are in such demand, then why breed at all?
		
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it costs nothing to keep an in foal mare out on the hill or other extensive grazing. The mares usually foal naturally without human intervention


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## jess05 (22 October 2020)

Why do people keep quoting EXCESS STOCK? Yes in the wild we have no power to control the breeding, but in a controlled stud farm we do. Why carry on breeding if you cannot afford to run the foals on until they are sold? I have heard a lot of mixed reports regarding this incident, but One thing I am certain of is that it could of been avoided with a better outcome for these colts.


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## Dave's Mam (22 October 2020)

jess05 said:



			Why do people keep quoting EXCESS STOCK? Yes in the wild we have no power to control the breeding, but in a controlled stud farm we do. Why carry on breeding if you cannot afford to run the foals on until they are sold? I have heard a lot of mixed reports regarding this incident, but One thing I am certain of is that it could of been avoided with a better outcome for these colts.
		
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When these colts were conceived, we didn't have Coronavirus & the stud had not lost a key member.  This year's Planning is out the window.


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## jess05 (22 October 2020)

Dave's Mam said:



			When these colts were conceived, we didn't have Coronavirus & the stud had not lost a key member.  This year's Planning is out the window.
		
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I appreciate your reply, so I assume that no more mares have been covered this year due to the ongoing Covid issue?


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## Dave's Mam (22 October 2020)

jess05 said:



			I appreciate your reply, so I assume that no more mares have been covered this year due to the ongoing Covid issue?
		
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I am not connected to the stud, so how would I know?  I am making a general point.


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## jess05 (22 October 2020)

Dave's Mam said:



			I am not connected to the stud, so how would I know?  I am making a general point.
		
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Fair point Dave's Mam, but I am just making my own personal opinion which we are all entitled to do.


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## Gingerwitch (23 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			It is different though because those lambs are bred for meat. These colts have been sent for slaughter because the breeder didn’t want colts and there wasn’t a market for them.
		
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So do lambs and these colts know the difference and dont lambs have any sense of fear and pain or us it only foals.  Lastly when you have hand reared a lamb is this different to a field reared lamb and how would you tell at the slaughter house ?


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## TPO (23 October 2020)

I really despair at times.

Here's a business undoubtedly affected by Covid, who have suffered a bereavement and who have THREE horses that didnt sell. There is a possibility that these three had conformation issues that might also have affected their sales and possibly even their mature lives. 

The stud did a responsible thing and ensured that they know where the ponies ended up and avoided the risk of them being passed around or abandoned. 

There are no prizes for keeping animals going at all costs (to the animals and humans). There are real horror stories, unlike this, of people selling cheaply/gifting horses and it being a downward spiral for the poor animal. There are animals in actual pain who are posted about still being kept going or ridden. That apparently is ok?

Yet people think it's ok to harrass, bully, slander and libel a stud out of business. The colts appeared well cared for, they have produced quality ponies previously, theyve suffered a bereavement and we are in the midst of a global pandemic.

Some perspective is called for.

I'm going to bet that there are very, very few on this thread who are totally plant based, use no animal materials at all and are riding solely in synthetic tack so people in glass houses.

There are people on this thread very familiar with the abattoir and have confirmed it's high standard of care and good practices. 

Although I'm sure everyone with so many negative things to say about the owners of the stud are too busy donating a lot of their time and money to sancturies and rescues to do much else, oh no wait...


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## ycbm (23 October 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			So do lambs and these colts know the difference and dont lambs have any sense of fear and pain or us it only foals.  Lastly when you have hand reared a lamb is this different to a field reared lamb and how would you tell at the slaughter house ?
		
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The difference is that there is no alternative for the lambs. If they weren't killed that way they would never be born. 

There was an alternative for those ponies that would have cost a couple of hundred pounds.  Less if they had machinery available to dig a hole.  I have no idea whether the stud could have paid that or not,  maybe they just don't have it. 

I do,  by the by,  think there is a world of difference taking an adult horse which is used to travelling and being places to an abattoir to wait its turn quietly in a side pen.





PS there is no excuse for the trial by social media.


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## tda (23 October 2020)

TPO said:



			I really despair at times.

Here's a business undoubtedly affected by Covid, who have suffered a bereavement and who have THREE horses that didnt sell. There is a possibility that these three had conformation issues that might also have affected their sales and possibly even their mature lives.

The stud did a responsible thing and ensured that they know where the ponies ended up and avoided the risk of them being passed around or abandoned.

There are no prizes for keeping animals going at all costs (to the animals and humans). There are real horror stories, unlike this, of people selling cheaply/gifting horses and it being a downward spiral for the poor animal. There are animals in actual pain who are posted about still being kept going or ridden. That apparently is ok?

Yet people think it's ok to harrass, bully, slander and libel a stud out of business. The colts appeared well cared for, they have produced quality ponies previously, theyve suffered a bereavement and we are in the midst of a global pandemic.

Some perspective is called for.

I'm going to bet that there are very, very few on this thread who are totally plant based, use no animal materials at all and are riding solely in synthetic tack so people in glass houses.

There are people on this thread very familiar with the abattoir and have confirmed it's high standard of care and good practices.

Although I'm sure everyone with so many negative things to say about the owners of the stud are too busy donating a lot of their time and money to sancturies and rescues to do much else, oh no wait...
		
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## teddypops (23 October 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			So do lambs and these colts know the difference and dont lambs have any sense of fear and pain or us it only foals.  Lastly when you have hand reared a lamb is this different to a field reared lamb and how would you tell at the slaughter house ?
		
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That’s not the point I was making. The lambs are born to be slaughtered for meat. There is a market for this. They would not have been born otherwise. They don’t have another use. These ponies were intentionally bred with the HOPE that there was someone willing to buy them or they were the next superstar. They were not bred for meat. Turns out no one wanted them and the owners took them for slaughter. There are other options for ponies.


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## babymare (23 October 2020)

TPO said:



			I really despair at times.

Here's a business undoubtedly affected by Covid, who have suffered a bereavement and who have THREE horses that didnt sell. There is a possibility that these three had conformation issues that might also have affected their sales and possibly even their mature lives. 

The stud did a responsible thing and ensured that they know where the ponies ended up and avoided the risk of them being passed around or abandoned. 

There are no prizes for keeping animals going at all costs (to the animals and humans). There are real horror stories, unlike this, of people selling cheaply/gifting horses and it being a downward spiral for the poor animal. There are animals in actual pain who are posted about still being kept going or ridden. That apparently is ok?

Yet people think it's ok to harrass, bully, slander and libel a stud out of business. The colts appeared well cared for, they have produced quality ponies previously, theyve suffered a bereavement and we are in the midst of a global pandemic.

Some perspective is called for.

I'm going to bet that there are very, very few on this thread who are totally plant based, use no animal materials at all and are riding solely in synthetic tack so people in glass houses.

There are people on this thread very familiar with the abattoir and have confirmed it's high standard of care and good practices. 

Although I'm sure everyone with so many negative things to say about the owners of the stud are too busy donating a lot of their time and money to sancturies and rescues to do much else, oh no wait...
		
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Well said 100%. The energy used in the hysteria on social media would be better used in generating funds for charities fighting true horrific cruelty and neglect because boy there are lots of poor souls out there suffering. But everyone loves a "crusade" don't they!


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## Widgeon (23 October 2020)

milliepops said:



			erm.... even more likely to be out of budget I'd have thought....?
		
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You should go anyway....


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## milliepops (23 October 2020)

Widgeon said:



			You should go anyway....

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🙈🙈🙈 no no no no


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## Widgeon (23 October 2020)

milliepops said:



			🙈🙈🙈 no no no no
		
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oh shhh....just start another thread and along you go. We'll all be waiting to see what happens


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## stormox (23 October 2020)

Its my bet that this thread is so biased towards 'no they shouldn't have been killed' because of the venom and hate shown by the 'they should have run them on/sold them/ given to charity brigade.
A lot of sensible professional horsey farming type people don't want to be involved in a slagging match.


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## Amymay (23 October 2020)

stormox said:



			Its my bet that this thread is so biased towards 'no they shouldn't have been killed' because of the venom and hate shown by the 'they should have run them on/sold them/ given to charity brigade.
A lot of sensible horsey farming type people don't want to be involved in a slagging match.
		
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I’m not sure that’s the case at all (perhaps with the odd exception).


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## Goldenstar (23 October 2020)

stormox said:



			Its my bet that this thread is so biased towards 'no they shouldn't have been killed' because of the venom and hate shown by the 'they should have run them on/sold them/ given to charity brigade.
A lot of sensible horsey farming type people don't want to be involved in a slagging match.
		
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Have you read the thread I don’t think you can have done .


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## teddypops (23 October 2020)

stormox said:



			Its my bet that this thread is so biased towards 'no they shouldn't have been killed' because of the venom and hate shown by the 'they should have run them on/sold them/ given to charity brigade.
A lot of sensible horsey farming type people don't want to be involved in a slagging match.
		
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I don’t think this thread is biased. There is a mixture of views on here.


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## Equine_Dream (23 October 2020)

I don't think its the fact that these colts were pts is what has got so many people upset. It's how these poor babies met their end that most disagree with. As again I think ymcb said above, there is a vast difference between transporting adult horses that are used to being handled and travelled. The colts appeared unhandled and certainly not used to travelling. Why put them through the stress of being transported to a strange place only to be killed when again, this could have happened at home?
My local hunt charges £180 to pts and dispatch the body. I understand the argument that the stud might not have the money but then I would question their ability to care for the remaining ponies? If £600 would bankrupt them, then how would they afford an unforseen vet bill?


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## TPO (23 October 2020)

I cant speak on behalf of stormox but my take was that they meant in general not just this thread. FB is certainly overrun with one side more than the other.

I'm actually really worried about the stud owners and associates. I doubt a trip to the abattoir is a fun day out for them, they were harassed there at already a difficult time, theyve been hounded and every scrap of internet information about them and their horses interrogated. Their names and addresses are out there, theyve had a bereavement and they are likely to be in a bad position next year in regards to selling because of the vile behaviour of these people.


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## Amymay (23 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			My local hunt charges £180 to pts and dispatch the body. I understand the argument that the stud might not have the money but then I would question their ability to care for the remaining ponies? If £600 would bankrupt them, then how would they afford an unforseen vet bill?
		
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But of course in this instance the hunt may not have dispatched them as they were seemingly under six months old.


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## TPO (23 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			I don't think its the fact that these colts were pts is what has got so many people upset. It's how these poor babies met their end that most disagree with. As again I think ymcb said above, there is a vast difference between transporting adult horses that are used to being handled and travelled. The colts appeared unhandled and certainly not used to travelling. Why put them through the stress of being transported to a strange place only to be killed when again, this could have happened at home?
My local hunt charges £180 to pts and dispatch the body. I understand the argument that the stud might not have the money but then I would question their ability to care for the remaining ponies? If £600 would bankrupt them, then how would they afford an unforseen vet bill?
		
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"Poor babies"; no, colts fortunate to escape the downward spiral that awaits many who don't sell.

Did you watch the video? Where were the stress signs? Unsure certainly but not worried or stressed. All three walked in calmly.

How do you know they were unhandled and not used to travelling? You're making assumptions and using them to hang someone with.

"How they met their end"; at a professional establishment with someone skilled at what they do in an environment especially built for this exact thing? There are laws and legislation in place to ensure this is done correctly with animal welfare at the fore.

£600 may not be much to you but there are people in all walks of life struggling right now because of the devastating financial impact that covid had caused. They wont have made money taking the colts there but it might just have saved them in other ways.

There are undoubtedly other horses still at the stud and business overheads.

Rescues are bursting at the seams. I dont see an influx of threads about all these people taking on rescue horses at the same volume they are decrying a sensible option with unsellable ponies.


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## stormox (23 October 2020)

The way they went to the abbatoir- whats the difference there than a foal being bought at a sale and transported off without mum as happens to thousands of foals in October? These 3 at least had each other.


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## Equine_Dream (23 October 2020)

Amymay said:



			But of course in this instance the hunt may not have dispatched them as they were seemingly under six months old.
		
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Good point but then why not turn them out for a month or two? They couldn't have been far off 6 months surely as they had obviously been weaned? If they are a great deal younger than 6 months then that is a different matter altogether!


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## luckyoldme (23 October 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			So do lambs and these colts know the difference and dont lambs have any sense of fear and pain or us it only foals.  Lastly when you have hand reared a lamb is this different to a field reared lamb and how would you tell at the slaughter house ?
		
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I know its not directed at me but I absolutely get the point you are making.
I suppose the slaughter at the end of a lambs short life is a necessary evil. Its horrible but thats what they have been bred for..theres a reason.
The reason for breeding those horses was to find one that the owner considered perfect..and to discard the leftovers that didnt meet their criteria..it seems so pointless.


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## Equine_Dream (23 October 2020)

TPO said:



			"Poor babies"; no, colts fortunate to escape the downward spiral that awaits many who don't sell.

Did you watch the video? Where were the stress signs? Unsure certainly but not worried or stressed. All three walked in calmly.

How do you know they were unhandled and not used to travelling? You're making assumptions and using them to hang someone with.

"How they met their end"; at a professional establishment with someone skilled at what they do in an environment especially built for this exact thing? There are laws and legislation in place to ensure this is done correctly with animal welfare at the fore.

£600 may not be much to you but there are people in all walks of life struggling right now because of the devastating financial impact that covid had caused. They wont have made money taking the colts there but it might just have saved them in other ways.

There are undoubtedly other horses still at the stud and business overheads.

Rescues are bursting at the seams. I dont see an influx of threads about all these people taking on rescue horses at the same volume they are decrying a sensible option with unsellable ponies.
		
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Please don't attempt to tell me what words I am or am not permitted to use. I am entitled to my opinion just as you are.

Yes I did watch the video thank you. I assume they were unhandled as none were wearing headcollers and were not lead off the trailer. Perhaps I am wrong but then if they are handled then having the knackerman shoot them at home would have been even easier?

I'm sorry but I stand by my view that if they could not afford a few hundred pounds to have the foals pts at home then how will they afford to care for the rest of their stock? Let's hope they don't have any unexpected vets bills/increase in feed prices or any unexpected bills that go hand in hand with having horses.


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## CanteringCarrot (23 October 2020)

While there is a difference in intent here, I feel as though some may use that as a way to justify the slaughtering of some animals. It's more acceptable to slaughter the lamb that was produced for human consumption vs. the foals that were bred for human companionship. I get it, but at the same time appreciate that circumstances change and that we don't have all of the details here. It appears, from the outside that there were other options, and I would like to know why the stud chose this method, but I'm not entitled to know.

I don't think it's more "ok" to slaughter a lamb raised with the purpose of being eaten. I think that's sort of a cheap way out, and the main reason people are all up in arms is because of this emotional attachment we have to horses and how their status in society is a bit different. 

I think it a bit weird that the breeder chose this approach, but again, I don't know their circumstances. Heck, other studs could do this too but have just gone unnoticed.


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## milliepops (23 October 2020)

there's another video on the FB page ester shared earlier which shows multiple older horses being unloaded. they all have their headcollars removed before unloading so I don't think that the wearing or otherwise of headcollars indicates anything.


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## Equine_Dream (23 October 2020)

stormox said:



			The way they went to the abbatoir- whats the difference there than a foal being bought at a sale and transported off without mum as happens to thousands of foals in October? These 3 at least had each other.
		
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Yes thousands of youngsters are transported everyday to sales and new homes. Unless you have a magical means of doing so, there is no alternative way to get them to new homes. However there were other options here that would not have required them to be transported to slaughter. It could have been done at home!


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## stormox (23 October 2020)

luckyoldme said:



			The reason for breeding those horses was to find one that the owner considered perfect..and to discard the leftovers that didnt meet their criteria..it seems so pointless.
		
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The reason for breeding those ponies is (not necessarily in this order)
1) to improve the breed.
2) because the owners love the breed and run a stud farm which has to make a profit or it wouldnt be viable.
3) to breed healthy good looking stock that people would want to buy.
4) and possibly the stud is running as a business to make themselves an income as we all have to do. And businesses have to be a bit sensible and not waste money.


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## Gingerwitch (23 October 2020)

So when "poor" TV's get bred just so if a potential superstar tb needs a new mum, what on earth do you think happens to the foal ? Cause they certainly kill it - so is that justifiable ? IE it's bred just incase we need a foster mum and when we do we need the skin off her healthy foal so foster mum will raise the orphaned foal.


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## YorksG (23 October 2020)

I do not believe that the intent of the human makes one jot of difference to the animal that is going to slaughter! The animal being transported to a sale travels in just the same way, enters a strange building, just the same. This is far more about people's sensibilities than animal welfare.


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## Lammy (23 October 2020)

I really disagree with the sentiment that unless you are vegan/veggie then you are a hypocrite to comment on what goes to the slaughterhouse and what doesn’t.

We all have the right and the responsibility to demand better welfare standards and better ethical standards whether we are meat eaters or not. I’m a veggie but I do consume dairy, I am considering making the switch to plant based but also looking at more ethical alternatives. There are several dairy farms that will now leave the calves on the mother for up to two years. It means less milk production for them but you can purchase milk knowing no male calves have gone for veal. The males will likely still end up in the food chain but it is certainly a better alternative than traditional farming methods. Some even keep the bulls and find jobs for them. This type of farming has come about because there is demand for it.

There is little demand for small native ponies especially ones that may have conformational issues. I’m not saying what the stud has done by dropping them off at the abattoir was irresponsible. If they truly didn’t have the funds to run them on (and really funds required for that would be minimal the way these ponies are kept) and were facing financial hardship then fine. But we don’t really know and we don’t really know what their next steps have been.

If they have bred the same number of foals for next year from the same mares/stallion that have produced foals with potential conformational issues then they are the problem. Overbreeding is the same issue whether you’re breeding gypsy cobs, Welsh ponies or thoroughbreds for racing. The only difference is some end up dying in a field and some end up ferried miles to an abattoir. You can be mad about both outcomes whether ones more ‘humane’ or not. And I think it’s all a big pointless waste and shouldn’t be happening end of.


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## Ranyhyn (23 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			I don't think its the fact that these colts were pts is what has got so many people upset. It's how these poor babies met their end that most disagree with. As again I think ymcb said above, there is a vast difference between transporting adult horses that are used to being handled and travelled. The colts appeared unhandled and certainly not used to travelling. Why put them through the stress of being transported to a strange place only to be killed when again, this could have happened at home?
My local hunt charges £180 to pts and dispatch the body. I understand the argument that the stud might not have the money but then I would question their ability to care for the remaining ponies? If £600 would bankrupt them, then how would they afford an unforseen vet bill?
		
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My lambs have never left their mothers either when they are taken to market and subsequently slaughtered.  Because they were bred for meat do these babies not feel stress?

Its not a question of wether the stud has the money to keep them its a business, if you spend money on sentiment you'll probably find you don't have a particularly fruitful animal business certainly.  That £600 would probably feel two horses for the winter, so do they spend less at an abbatoir and save some to feed the rest of the herd or do they spend it all on sentiment?


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## Ranyhyn (23 October 2020)

On a tangent I am horrified to see the venom flying about on social media towards these breeders.

If by some stroke of luck, they or their connections read this thread I hope they will see that not only are many in support of them but quite often even those who oppose them, are able to do so in a sensible adult manner.

Please God dont let the crazies get to you - I am concerned this could lead to a real dent in their mental health or worse


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## Equine_Dream (23 October 2020)

I don't condone the trial by social media but I hope some lessons have been learnt. Over breeding is a real problem and I trust they will consider reducing the number of foals bred over the next few years if nothing changes. That's if anyone will buy a foal from them after all this....


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## ycbm (23 October 2020)

TPO said:



			How do you know they were unhandled and not used to travelling? You're making assumptions and using them to hang someone with.
		
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They were run loose out of the trailer up the ramp and  herded into the abattoir by shutting a door on them. No assumptions here,  just what I saw, unhandled young stock driven where people wanted them to go,  not led. 
.


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## milliepops (23 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			They were run loose out of the trailer up the ramp and  herded into the abattoir by shutting a door on them. No assumptions here,  just what I saw, unhandled young stock driven where people wanted them to go,  not led.
.
		
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the same is true of the ?15 big older horses that came out of the big red lorry on the same day though, so I don't think the way they are handled there is necessarily that meaningful.


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## Tiddlypom (23 October 2020)

Youngsters travelled loose, as is best practice, and then moved on still loose into the abbatoir. No one can be certain from viewing that clip that the weanlings were not previously used to bring handled.


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## tristar (23 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			Please don't attempt to tell me what words I am or am not permitted to use. I am entitled to my opinion just as you are.

Yes I did watch the video thank you. I assume they were unhandled as none were wearing headcollers and were not lead off the trailer. Perhaps I am wrong but then if they are handled then having the knackerman shoot them at home would have been even easier?

I'm sorry but I stand by my view that if they could not afford a few hundred pounds to have the foals pts at home then how will they afford to care for the rest of their stock? Let's hope they don't have any unexpected vets bills/increase in feed prices or any unexpected bills that go hand in hand with having horses.
		
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this did occur to me, if they dispose of stock in this way is there provision money for the other animals, ?


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## Gingerwitch (23 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			That’s not the point I was making. The lambs are born to be slaughtered for meat. There is a market for this. They would not have been born otherwise. They don’t have another use. These ponies were intentionally bred with the HOPE that there was someone willing to buy them or they were the next superstar. They were not bred for meat. Turns out no one wanted them and the owners took them for slaughter. There are other options for ponies.
		
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So are we saying that if a species is not for commercial food, toil or pleasure it has no worth ? This is so so sad. What an awful planet this would be if we annihilated anything that did not fit these groups.


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## tristar (23 October 2020)

Dave's Mam said:



			When these colts were conceived, we didn't have Coronavirus & the stud had not lost a key member.  This year's Planning is out the window.
		
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but everyone`s planning went out the window, you should never have more stock than you have long term provision for, financially


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## milliepops (23 October 2020)

tristar said:



			but everyone`s planning went out the window, you should never have more stock than you have long term provision for, financially
		
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which they don't have, any more.   Maybe this was always the long term provision?  it's a plan of sorts even if it's not what everyone would choose.

if a stud breeds a number of foals each year it's always going to be a gamble to see what happens the next year. it might be covid, it might be something else, they possibly weren't also predicting a bereavement


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## Tiddlypom (23 October 2020)

tristar said:



			but everyone`s planning went out the window, you should never have more stock than you have long term provision for, financially
		
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No one could have predicted Covid when these were conceived.

The stud have cut down on their stock, which is responsible.


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## tristar (23 October 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			No one could have predicted Covid when these were conceived.

The stud have cut down on their stock, which is responsible.
		
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no stud knows what is around the corner, when you put the stallion in with the mares the buck stops with you, breeding is a long term project, at lot longer than 15 months

breeding on a shoestring is the worse plan possible


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## Tiddlypom (23 October 2020)

How do you know they are or were operating on a shoestring? You don’t.

Maybe they had a very good business and income which Covid has put paid to, such as event management/weddings/anything. Maybe they have an idea of the numbers that they can keep properly over winter, and prefer to stick to that number.

But carry on with the uninformed criticism, hey, if it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling.


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## tristar (23 October 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			How do you know they are or were operating on a shoestring? You don’t.

Maybe they had a very good business and income which Covid has put paid to, such as event management/weddings/anything. Maybe they have an idea of the numbers that they can keep properly over winter, and prefer to stick to that number.

But carry on with the uninformed criticism, hey, if it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling.
		
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i was not talking about them, specifically just in general, if you care to read  my post with your glasses on

if they,  as you surmise had a good income previous to covid would it  be beyond the realms of possibility that they would have had money put away, or do you know that they`` spent as they went``, 



they should have thought about the numbers they could keep over the winter when they  put the stallion in with the mares not when covid struck


you are equally uninformed in your critique of my post, i certainly have no warm fuzzy feeling about these foals, i am sick to my stomach of what is happening in the horse world

but hey, as you put it,   use their deaths to put me down, i don`t care!!!!!


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## Wishfilly (23 October 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			So when "poor" TV's get bred just so if a potential superstar tb needs a new mum, what on earth do you think happens to the foal ? Cause they certainly kill it - so is that justifiable ? IE it's bred just incase we need a foster mum and when we do we need the skin off her healthy foal so foster mum will raise the orphaned foal.
		
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I am not saying that TBs don't go to slaughter in large numbers because they do, but I can tell you it is actually pretty rare for TB weanlings to go to slaughter. 5/6/7/8yos who haven't made the grade yes, in pretty large numbers, but weanlings no- not in the way that e.g. dartmoor hill pony weanlings do.


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## Red-1 (23 October 2020)

I looked at the video and was sad. They looked like lovely foals to me.

But then, I also thought it was none of my business. The foals looked well cared for, healthy, well transported... I felt the video was intrusive. 

I have said many times on here, when someone PTS a horse, I agree with them. Even for a professional, it cannot be a nice thing to have to do.

They were going about their business, dealing with their problem. I too would rather that than the ponies sold on to somewhere unsuitable. 

What they were doing was legal, so I think naming and shaming was wrong.


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## PapaverFollis (23 October 2020)

Red-1 said:



			I looked at the video and was sad. They looked like lovely foals to me.

But then, I also thought it was none of my business. The foals looked well cared for, healthy, well transported... I felt the video was intrusive.

I have said many times on here, when someone PTS a horse, I agree with them. Even for a professional, it cannot be a nice thing to have to do.

They were going about their business, dealing with their problem. I too would rather that than the ponies sold on to somewhere unsuitable.

What they were doing was legal, so I think naming and shaming was wrong.
		
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Yes. This pretty much says what I was trying to put this into words earlier but gave up!


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## alexomahony (23 October 2020)

luckyoldme said:



			This is where my brain and heart fall out with each other.
I know its the only way but it makes me so sad.
The other morning when i was refuelling I saw a cattle wagon.  I tried to force myself not to look but in the end I made eye contact. It makes me so sad. Still not sad enough to go vegetarian though.
		
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I am in this boat with you!


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## LadyGascoyne (23 October 2020)

I think a lot of people don’t see that one can be very sad about an outcome but also not judge the decision. 

I am sad that the foals died because they were unwanted. I understand that unwanted animals should be disposed of humanely, and that humane slaughter has prevented the fact that they are unwanted causing them to be abandoned or to suffer cruelty. 

It is the ‘surplus to need’ that makes me sad, not so much the slaughter. It is also what makes me avoid products that come from large commercial producers, and why I like to buy from local farms/ friends instead. I don’t like to see animals being treated as waste, or slaughtered to be disposed of rather than slaughtered to produce meat. 

The dairy farm next door takes their male calves to slaughter, usually at just under a year old. We get veal from them. It’s sad that the calves go but it’s part of the reason that they are kept in the first place, and it’s part of farming. It doesn’t feel like waste - the veal is used, and the calves are kept beautifully. 

These colts feel unwanted and that doesn’t sit well with me. I cannot judge the choice to slaughter though, despite being sad about the result. We do not know the circumstances, nor the reasoning. 

The saddest thing, I think, is that people think it’s acceptable to wish harm or physical violence on the owner, or that they genuinely believe that having the ponies in their garden is a solution. The naivety coupled with the sheer spite is very disturbing.


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## Bellaboo18 (23 October 2020)

Interesting debate.

Firstly, although I won't be watching the video, i'm not surprised in the slightest. Some people are very naive.

I do hate the argument that theres worse fates, two wrongs dont make a right BUT I do find things I see regularly in the horse world far more sad.
Everyone has seen the horse in pain thats being smacked for being 'lazy', 'naughty', 'mareish' etc. etc. A life in pain now thats sad. A quick end not so much.

I dont eat meat and the reason for this is i have no idea the life that animal has had and i couldn't have it on my conscience to be supporting any form of cruelty. I cant see the difference between a cow and a pony.

We dont know the whole story here and i hate that social media has decided it was an easy decision for the stud. Oh and the people that are putting out the statement 'anything i sell or breed is welcome back at anytime'. Really(?) umm not convinced!

Anyway I really hope the owners of the stud are ok, i doubt this was an easy decision.

For me the jury is still out.
If for financial/other reasons the stud felt they had no choice then well done them for making the hard decision.

However, if the stud routinely sends the unwanted stock to slaughter, stands at hoys with the chosen stock then that doesn't sit well with me.


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## CanteringCarrot (24 October 2020)

The colts feel unwanted? How do the colts even know if they are wanted or not?

Why do we attach these feelings and emotions to animals?

I find veal to be absolutely disgusting. It's ok for a young calf to be taken from its mother, put into a small pen/shelter so they cannot move to much and develop strong muscle in order for the meat to stay soft and tender. This is ok because of intent and that they were brought into this world to be slaughtered for meat. Right. 

It is sad that the colts were slaughtered and I am not sure that I would support a breeder that did this. Also depends on the details I suppose, but I'm not about to put them on trial or anything. 

I just can't get over the emotions that people only attach to certain animals. I know why this happens, but still.

Also sad what people have to tell themselves in order to justify their meat consumption.  You eat it because you like it. That's really it. You're free to do so.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (24 October 2020)

So will all those protesting be watching the online WPCS sales next week and buying up the wee colts that aren’t selling?

Time to put your money where your mouth is, after all people Are saying someone should have bought them. Or will it be the standard excuse of not funding overbreeding. Again leave open answers to my question of what to do with them now they are here. Just curious 🤷🏼‍♀️🤔🤔


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## LadyGascoyne (24 October 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			The colts feel unwanted? How do the colts even know if they are wanted or not?

Why do we attach these feelings and emotions to animals?

I find veal to be absolutely disgusting. It's ok for a young calf to be taken from its mother, put into a small pen/shelter so they cannot move to much and develop strong muscle in order for the meat to stay soft and tender. This is ok because of intent and that they were brought into this world to be slaughtered for meat. Right. 

It is sad that the colts were slaughtered and I am not sure that I would support a breeder that did this. Also depends on the details I suppose, but I'm not about to put them on trial or anything. 

I just can't get over the emotions that people only attach to certain animals. I know why this happens, but still.

Also sad what people have to tell themselves in order to justify their meat consumption.  You eat it because you like it. That's really it. You're free to do so.
		
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Sorry should have been clearer, what I meant by ‘these colts feel unwanted’ was that ‘it feels as if these colts were unwanted’. I am not in any way, shape or form suggesting that the ponies have understood the situation and have had their feelings hurt.

Re veal, you are referring to white veal, which is banned in the UK. 

Generically, the term veal only means meat from calves under 1 year old. The calves I’m referring to are raised absolutely normally, and live out in the fields with their mothers until weaning. They are then turned out with other youngsters until they go for slaughter. Veal is often slaughtered at a later age than lamb.


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## wispagold (24 October 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			The colts feel unwanted? How do the colts even know if they are wanted or not?

Why do we attach these feelings and emotions to animals?

I find veal to be absolutely disgusting. It's ok for a young calf to be taken from its mother, put into a small pen/shelter so they cannot move to much and develop strong muscle in order for the meat to stay soft and tender. This is ok because of intent and that they were brought into this world to be slaughtered for meat. Right.

It is sad that the colts were slaughtered and I am not sure that I would support a breeder that did this. Also depends on the details I suppose, but I'm not about to put them on trial or anything.

I just can't get over the emotions that people only attach to certain animals. I know why this happens, but still.

Also sad what people have to tell themselves in order to justify their meat consumption.  You eat it because you like it. That's really it. You're free to do so.
		
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All of the veal producers I know of in the UK are producing Rose veal and it isn't produced in that way. Movement isn't restricted, the calves are kept in groups in sheds and are just not fed any green forage. Rations are straw or hay based. Straw based rations are quite normal anyway up until 6 months of age for calves as the rumen isn't sufficiently developed to be able to cope with grass silage before this time. 

Rose veal schemes are providing farmers with viable options to rear male animals for a market where they have a value meaning they do not need to shoot them at birth... Which no farmer wants to do.


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## ycbm (24 October 2020)

I find veal to be absolutely disgusting. It's ok for a young calf to be taken from its mother, put into a small pen/shelter so they cannot move to much and develop strong muscle in order for the meat to stay soft and tender. This is ok because of intent and that they were brought into this world to be slaughtered for meat. Right. 
.
		
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I don't think that is connected with what anyone is saying about intent.  I'm not sure anyone on the forum would support doing that with calves,  which is why most people won't eat white veal.


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## windand rain (24 October 2020)

Well said LG both posts are exactly how I feel. I wont defend over breeding to get top notch stock but cannot deny everyone who breeds more than one foal for themself is trying hard to improve their stock. The ones that dont are often unable to find a home at a very young age. It is only when some mug like me who enjoys rearing youngsters takes them on and produces them as sane ridden horses that allows them a future of any kind. As I said on one of many of the nasty vitriolic posts on Facebook. If everyone creating a fuss about what is largely normal practice bought a colt foal then reared it properly, get it gelded, paid £1000 per year without livery costs for proper routine care, Say another £1000 for emergencies and possibly another grand for backing and schooling if you dont have a tiny experienced rider. Another 4000 for 4 years mileage to make it what is deemed to be of a suitable age/experience for a child to ride your investment is in the region of £10,000. Of course that is if it is done properly and if everything goes well with no accidents, temperament issues and quirks. You are then likely to be sneered at as over charging for your pony if you then ask for more than £1000 and are likely to be offered a lot less. It is not as simple as most laypeople think just give a meat foal a home without thought to the costs and experience needed to get a ridden pony at the end. I lived through the If you pay £5 for a foal you can have another free. A time when hill ponies and yes New Forests were cheaper to buy a foal than a bar of chocolate and the consequential cruelty that caused. Some literally knocked on the head with a blunt instrument or left to starve in garages and gardens with a few handfuls of grass then when young colts became young colts and the new owner becomes terrified of them. Sorry for the rant but it breaks my heart to see the cruelty that this causes and would far rather anything not reaching a decent price was sent to slaughter than ended up with the do gooders without a clue. Dog breeding is far worse and cat breeding is going the same way. Humans are vile in the way they treat animals but as that is a given the animals should be dead rather than have to endure them. More local abbatoirs should be opened and the meat valued


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## Gloi (24 October 2020)

The moral of the story seems to be - if you have to take animals to the abbatoir don't do it in a vehicle with your name on it.


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## Lammy (24 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			So will all those protesting be watching the online WPCS sales next week and buying up the wee colts that aren’t selling?

Time to put your money where your mouth is, after all people Are saying someone should have bought them. Or will it be the standard excuse of not funding overbreeding. Again leave open answers to my question of what to do with them now they are here. Just curious 🤷🏼‍♀️🤔🤔
		
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What a silly response.
Do you oppose animal cruelty? I imagine you do, therefore are you going to rehome all the animals currently in a shelter up and down the country so that more animals can be rescued?

I have said it until I’m blue in the face, I don’t think that taking the ponies to the slaughter house was the irresponsible thing *if* that was the only option left to the breeders. What I do think is irresponsible is overbreeding and potentially breeding the same amount of foals from the same mares/stallions for next year especially if there were conformational issues. But nobody knows whether either that was the only option left to them *or* whether they have bred the same number or have done this in the past.

Maybe instead of expecting everyone opposing the slaughter of the weanlings to buy all the other foals who come a cropper at the sales - it would be enough to expect them to write to the WPCS and put forward their thoughts on tighter breeding restrictions. I will be doing that this weekend and I hope people will join me.

Plus I don’t think anyone on this thread is saying someone should have bought them...more that they shouldn’t have been bred in the first place. But as I’ve said we don’t know the full circumstances to answer that question.


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## teddypops (24 October 2020)

Lammy said:



			What a silly response.
Do you oppose animal cruelty? I imagine you do, therefore are you going to rehome all the animals currently in a shelter up and down the country so that more animals can be rescued?

I have said it until I’m blue in the face, I don’t think that taking the ponies to the slaughter house was the irresponsible thing *if* that was the only option left to the breeders. What I do think is irresponsible is overbreeding and potentially breeding the same amount of foals from the same mares/stallions for next year especially if there were conformational issues. But nobody knows whether either that was the only option left to them *or* whether they have bred the same number or have done this in the past.

Maybe instead of expecting everyone opposing the slaughter of the weanlings to buy all the other foals who come a cropper at the sales - it would be enough to expect them to write to the WPCS and put forward their thoughts on tighter breeding restrictions. I will be doing that this weekend and I hope people will join me.

Plus I don’t think anyone on this thread is saying someone should have bought them...more that they shouldn’t have been bred in the first place. But as I’ve said we don’t know the full circumstances to answer that question.
		
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Agree totally!


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## CanteringCarrot (24 October 2020)

LadyGascoyne said:



			Sorry should have been clearer, what I meant by ‘these colts feel unwanted’ was that ‘it feels as if these colts were unwanted’. I am not in any way, shape or form suggesting that the ponies have understood the situation and have had their feelings hurt.

Re veal, you are referring to white veal, which is banned in the UK. 

Generically, the term veal only means meat from calves under 1 year old. The calves I’m referring to are raised absolutely normally, and live out in the fields with their mothers until weaning. They are then turned out with other youngsters until they go for slaughter. Veal is often slaughtered at a later age than lamb.
		
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Ah yeah, that makes sense. I mean, they ultimately were unwanted as in not wanted by the stud and therefore sent to slaughter. 

I suppose I've gotten more used to the American veal, as I lived there for quite awhile. Which would be "white veal" then. 

I've never psychologically been able to bring myself to eat veal or lamb. Then again, meat eating is just not my thing and could be why I am a bit ignorant about distinctions between the types of veal. But if someone else enjoys veal or lamb, I'm not about to crucify them over it. It is their choice and I can only hope it comes from a good source.

There's also a saying that goes with Germany, something along the lines of Germans love to eat pigs, and you'll never see a live one in Germany. They're kept closed up in dark nasty buildings. 

I am itching to know why the stud thought this was a good move though. Again, probably won't know, have no right to know, but curious as a cat nonetheless. 

I've known a family that brought 2 horses to slaughter (short ride over to Belgium). Both horses had a variety of painful ailments and could not be ridden. Vet refused to put them down due to the fact they still ate, drank, and looked alive. The family knew their horses, knew that they suffered, and got little joy from their existence. Its a bit more difficult to just shoot a horse here and get it taken away, maybe easier in other areas. So off to slaughter they went. Still have mixed feelings about it, but not my horses or situation.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (24 October 2020)

Lammy said:



			What a silly response.
Do you oppose animal cruelty? I imagine you do, therefore are you going to rehome all the animals currently in a shelter up and down the country so that more animals can be rescued?

I have said it until I’m blue in the face, I don’t think that taking the ponies to the slaughter house was the irresponsible thing *if* that was the only option left to the breeders. What I do think is irresponsible is overbreeding and potentially breeding the same amount of foals from the same mares/stallions for next year especially if there were conformational issues. But nobody knows whether either that was the only option left to them *or* whether they have bred the same number or have done this in the past.

Maybe instead of expecting everyone opposing the slaughter of the weanlings to buy all the other foals who come a cropper at the sales - it would be enough to expect them to write to the WPCS and put forward their thoughts on tighter breeding restrictions. I will be doing that this weekend and I hope people will join me.

Plus I don’t think anyone on this thread is saying someone should have bought them...more that they shouldn’t have been bred in the first place. But as I’ve said we don’t know the full circumstances to answer that question.
		
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Thanks for sharing your opinion. Mine was a question to all those who actually said if there was nothing wrong with them they should have sold or the breeders should have hung into them until they did.

My post is just as valid as yours is 👌🏼


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## fabbydo (24 October 2020)

This place is very, very local to me. Just a few weeks ago, it was fined for badly  mistreating a pony ( video evidence). Locals, including myself,  used to defend it as we felt it was better to have livestock done locally instead of them having to travel. Then it changed hands and started doing horses. They come from miles away, even Ireland,  and they are not treated well (hence the fine). It needs to be shut or sold to people who will do it properly.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 October 2020)

fabbydo said:



			This place is very, very local to me. Just a few weeks ago, it was fined for badly  mistreating a pony ( video evidence). Locals, including myself,  used to defend it as we felt it was better to have livestock done locally instead of them having to travel. Then it changed hands and started doing horses. They come from miles away, even Ireland,  and they are not treated well (hence the fine). It needs to be shut or sold to people who will do it properly.
		
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Yes, that was the case from 2018. 
Facts help a little, as from the date of that incident  (and yes, rightly fined etc as appalling), they have been heavily scrutinised with supervisory visits and cameras. 
What has happened since that ought to be in the public domain that you feel it should be closed?


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## fabbydo (24 October 2020)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Yes, that was the case from 2018. 
Facts help a little, as from the date of that incident  (and yes, rightly fined etc as appalling), they have been heavily scrutinised with supervisory visits and cameras. 
What has happened since that ought to be in the public domain that you feel it should be closed?
		
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Surely that in itself is enough?


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## Gloi (24 October 2020)

fabbydo said:



			Surely that in itself is enough?
		
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As FF said they have put systems in place since to hopefully stop it happening.


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## Amymay (24 October 2020)

fabbydo said:



			This place is very, very local to me. Just a few weeks ago, it was fined for badly  mistreating a pony ( video evidence). Locals, including myself,  used to defend it as we felt it was better to have livestock done locally instead of them having to travel. Then it changed hands and started doing horses. They come from miles away, even Ireland,  and they are not treated well (hence the fine). It needs to be shut or sold to people who will do it properly.
		
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And now they’ve shot three (apparently) under age colts.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 October 2020)

Amymay said:



			And now they’ve shot three (apparently) under age colts.
		
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There is no minimum age, where did that come from?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 October 2020)

fabbydo said:



			Surely that in itself is enough?
		
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That happened 2.5 years ago.
They have since been fined, on high level of supervision ever since.


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## TheMule (24 October 2020)

fabbydo said:



			This place is very, very local to me. Just a few weeks ago, it was fined for badly  mistreating a pony ( video evidence). Locals, including myself,  used to defend it as we felt it was better to have livestock done locally instead of them having to travel. Then it changed hands and started doing horses. They come from miles away, even Ireland,  and they are not treated well (hence the fine). It needs to be shut or sold to people who will do it properly.
		
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That's not factually correct. The abattoir is rented to Potters one day a week. They used to rent an abattoir in Somerset before (for many years)
If you go and spend a bit of time there (as I have) you will realise that the horses are treated very well. Though I do agree, and did state on the other thread related to that case, that it was appalling what happened to that horse. But I do believe it was an isolated incident (indeed, as stated above, the CCTV is closely scrutinized) They also frequently have people like me in there and have a totally open door policy as there is nothing to hide.




Amymay said:



			And now they’ve shot three (apparently) under age colts.
		
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What do you mean by 'under age'? What they did was perfectly legal


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## TheMule (24 October 2020)

fabbydo said:



			Surely that in itself is enough?
		
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So what do you propose is the alternative? If you shut the only slaughterhouse in the UK licensed for horses then the horses will have to travel over to Europe to be slaughtered. Learn from what they did in the US. Export on the hook, not on the hoof.


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## Amymay (24 October 2020)

Mule, I believe the colts were under six months of age.


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## Tiddlypom (24 October 2020)

Amymay said:



			Mule, I believe the colts were under six months of age.
		
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Can you post a link to somewhere that shows why that is relevant legally?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 October 2020)

I'm a little tired of getting vile PM's. It now needs to stop. I have reported now as you are unpleasant but also using a new alias. 

For the public record, I have nothing to do with any abbatoir.
I am not pro or anti the shooting of unwanted horses or ponies.
I am however VERY pro facts and will rigorously  defend people's right to do as they will within the law.
I do not support made up stories whatsoever.


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## Tiddlypom (24 October 2020)

And in a new low, a poster recently started a thread on HHO specifically to identify the address of the stud that sent the weanlings .

Thread reported by many of us, and soon pulled.

Poster, you should be utterly ashamed of yourself.


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## Dave's Mam (24 October 2020)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I'm a little tired of getting vile PM's. It now needs to stop. I have reported now as you are unpleasant but also using a new alias.

For the public record, I have nothing to do with any abbatoir.
I am not pro or anti the shooting of unwanted horses or ponies.
I am however VERY pro facts and will rigorously  defend people's right to do as they will within the law.
I do not support made up stories whatsoever.
		
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Sounds like someone needs to grow up.


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## CanteringCarrot (24 October 2020)

Amymay said:



			Mule, I believe the colts were under six months of age.
		
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Well, a few things here. You "believe" but were they infact less than 6 months of age? And if so, is it legally relevant?



I sort of thought about this a bit. I could not drive healthy (if they were) colts to slaughter. I'd really have to be in a bad situation financially (or I guess even mentally?) to do so.


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## Tiddlypom (24 October 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			I sort of thought about this a bit. I could not drive healthy (if they were) colts to slaughter. I'd really have to be in a bad situation financially (or I guess even mentally?) to do so.
		
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So you’ve said.

You do not know whether the people who did this were also in a bad situation financially and/or mentally.

ETA Though it’s none of our business as to whether they were or not.


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## Goldenstar (24 October 2020)

We don’t know the situation of the breeder and we also don’t that the colts where not imperfect in some way that made it wise not to pass them on .


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## CanteringCarrot (24 October 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			So you’ve said.

You do not know whether the people who did this were also in a bad situation financially and/or mentally.

ETA Though it’s none of our business as to whether they were or not.
		
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I know that I don't know what kind of situation these people were or are in. I know it is none of my business and I have no right to know. I've said this numerous times! I literally just reflected on how *I* would feel or what would drive me to do this. Which is irrelevant really, and just a thought.

Are you twisting my words? Or what's your point? I'm a bit confused.


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## CanteringCarrot (24 October 2020)

Goldenstar said:



			We don’t know the situation of the breeder and we also don’t that the colts where not imperfect in some way that made it wise not to pass them on .
		
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Exactly.


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## Goldenstar (24 October 2020)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I'm a little tired of getting vile PM's. It now needs to stop. I have reported now as you are unpleasant but also using a new alias.

For the public record, I have nothing to do with any abbatoir.
I am not pro or anti the shooting of unwanted horses or ponies.
I am however VERY pro facts and will rigorously  defend people's right to do as they will within the law.
I do not support made up stories whatsoever.
		
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paste them and copy them to here don’t let them hide in private messages .


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## PapaverFollis (24 October 2020)

Goldenstar said:



			paste them and copy them to here don’t let them hide in private messages .
		
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You get a wrist slap from admin if you do that...  if you screenshot them anyway.  Not sure about C&P.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 October 2020)

Goldenstar said:



			paste them and copy them to here don’t let them hide in private messages .
		
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What PF says above.


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## Goldenstar (24 October 2020)

Ah now I know why people don’t just do that .
Thats just illogical to me people who take nastiness into PM’s need calling out .


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## scats (24 October 2020)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I'm a little tired of getting vile PM's. It now needs to stop. I have reported now as you are unpleasant but also using a new alias. 

For the public record, I have nothing to do with any abbatoir.
I am not pro or anti the shooting of unwanted horses or ponies.
I am however VERY pro facts and will rigorously  defend people's right to do as they will within the law.
I do not support made up stories whatsoever.
		
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Some people seem to be unable to have a grown-up discussion about things.  Sorry you are getting horrible PMs, I have no idea why people feel the need to conduct themselves in that manner.


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## Sandstone1 (24 October 2020)

Who is doing it!


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## CanteringCarrot (24 October 2020)

I always miss out on the fun!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 October 2020)

Sandstone1 said:



			Who is doing it!
		
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I've reported and blocked them.  No need to say more, I'll rise above it ta 👍


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## Gingerwitch (24 October 2020)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I'm a little tired of getting vile PM's. It now needs to stop. I have reported now as you are unpleasant but also using a new alias.

For the public record, I have nothing to do with any abbatoir.
I am not pro or anti the shooting of unwanted horses or ponies.
I am however VERY pro facts and will rigorously  defend people's right to do as they will within the law.
I do not support made up6 stories whatsoever.
		
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Gosh FF I have had PM's shared by one tosser whom thinks it was clever, I have had several vile PM's and many more supportive ones. I hate folk that hide behind the hho anominity to be vile and cruel.  I will also thank you for offering to help me once many years ago when my horses were in a dreadful place.  You certainly do not deserve vile p m s. X X.   G W


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## Roasted Chestnuts (24 October 2020)

I don’t play the PM game. Hope they get a permanent block 😡😡.


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## stormox (24 October 2020)

Amymay said:



			Mule, I believe the colts were under six months of age.
		
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I never heard there was a minimum age for horses to be put down. Is there?


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## Goldenstar (24 October 2020)

No not that I have ever heard .


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## Hannahkayj (24 October 2020)

I really struggle to understand why the need for pitchforks, the assumptions and the down right disgraceful attempt to destroy this stud. I don’t think they really take on board what could happen. There was a journalist on Facebook who has allegedly taken this story to the papers, now funnily enough this journalist was very one sided.

I’ve been reading this thread since it started (forgive me for new profile I couldn’t figure out how to join). It’s refreshing to see actual adults discuss it (bar those being idiotic and sending vile pms). I’m sick of reading “she should of gave them away for free”, if someone wasn’t interested in these colts until they saw “free for good home” are they really the right people to take them on? They were advertised and no one was interested in them, but minute they’ve been despatched you’ve got a queue. That shows to me they are only wanting to look like hero’s.
Sorry for the rant I’ll get off my soapbox now 🥴🤣


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## SO1 (24 October 2020)

I think if you are breeding animals you do have a duty of care towards them.

If you are breeding companion animals that includes horses then you should be responsible and that means trying to give those animals the best start in life so they can find suitable homes. This may include gelding colts and halter breaking them making it easier for those who don't own their own land to able to buy them and keep at livery. Churning out large numbers of foals in the hope that one of them may be the next HOYS winner or a top competition horse without any thought about the others is irresponsible.

In this case what has happened may have been caused by death of the owner but it is perhaps a wake up call as to what probably happens in a lot of studs.

I wonder if there could be some sort of kitemark for studs with high welfare standards.


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## Palindrome (24 October 2020)

Hannahkayj said:



			I really struggle to understand why the need for pitchforks, the assumptions and the down right disgraceful attempt to destroy this stud. I don’t think they really take on board what could happen. There was a journalist on Facebook who has allegedly taken this story to the papers, now funnily enough this journalist was very one sided.

I’ve been reading this thread since it started (forgive me for new profile I couldn’t figure out how to join). It’s refreshing to see actual adults discuss it (bar those being idiotic and sending vile pms). I’m sick of reading “she should of gave them away for free”, if someone wasn’t interested in these colts until they saw “free for good home” are they really the right people to take them on? They were advertised and no one was interested in them, but minute they’ve been despatched you’ve got a queue. That shows to me they are only wanting to look like hero’s.
Sorry for the rant I’ll get off my soapbox now 🥴🤣
		
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Were they being advertised for the same price as meat money or with a mark up?


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## Hannahkayj (24 October 2020)

Palindrome said:



			Were they being advertised for the same price as meat money or with a mark up?
		
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from what I found it couldn’t of been that much their other lovely one sold for £300 with reserve met. Hardly huge amounts, I’d certainly not be giving them away for free


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## lannerch (24 October 2020)

Palindrome said:



			Were they being advertised for the same price as meat money or with a mark up?
		
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Surely with a mark up if they had tried to sell them for just meat money ( virtually nothing as they were so young ) then that would be almost the same as giving them away.


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## Goldenstar (24 October 2020)

It’s has to be said they are much more prepared to cull youngstock on the continent


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## Cortez (24 October 2020)

Goldenstar said:



			It’s has to be said they are much more prepared to cull youngstock on the continent
		
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The entire horse industry is a lot more professional in other places.


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## Hannahkayj (24 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			The entire horse industry is a lot more professional in other places.
		
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Absolutely we’ve got a long way to go to catch up I feel.


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## DiNozzo (24 October 2020)

I do feel that a clean and quick death is never wrong, for anything (human*, horse, dog, other animal), regardless of the motivations of the 'doer'. 

There are far worse things in the world than death. 

*Except actual crimes, although assisted suicide is one I do 100% support.


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## Wishfilly (24 October 2020)

I think we can accept the actions of the stud as being potentially a last resort due to Covid/family circumstances without holding it up as an ideal way to breed horses.

In my opinion, the native breeds which limit numbers and work hard to improve the breed (e.g. Fell, Dales, to an extent New Forest) seem to have much higher welfare standards in general than those that overbreed and in some cases perhaps send youngstock to slaughter or sell them for meat every year. I don't think anyone would deny that there are still welfare issues with Dartmoor Hill Ponies, despite there being a market for them via the meat trade to an extent now. In some ways the market being created means there's still a lot of substandard ponies being bred indiscriminately on the moor, and they aren't all well looked after whilst they are alive.

I do think the situation with Welsh Ponies may fall between the two extremes, but I think the breed society does need to think about what it promotes/encourages.

I think there's a difference between saying this is possibly acceptable as a last resort and suggesting it's a "professional" way to breed ponies. It might be profitable, but I'm not convinced that's the same thing as desirable.


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## ester (24 October 2020)

lannerch said:



			Surely with a mark up if they had tried to sell them for just meat money ( virtually nothing as they were so young ) then that would be almost the same as giving them away.
		
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plenty have been sold for less than meat money, depends on transportation distances too. I think this is now the only licenced abattoir for horses since Turners is no longer.


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## ktj1891 (24 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			So for all of those saying that they shouldn’t be sent for slaughter the question is what to do with them?

Outwith the statement of shouldn’t been bred at all etc, that ship has sailed, they are here now. What does the breeder do with them? Can’t keep them, can’t run them on, perhaps can’t sell them/give them away, vet dispatch is very costly (I know I’ve done it) , So what to do with them?
		
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well that ship has sailed but their responsibility is to look after them and not take the easy route for their own f*** up. IMO there is no excuse for breeding and then not ensuring the animals future. In this country we go on and on about indiscriminate breeding but yet the supposed ‘breeders’ are just as bad in a different disguise.

There’s also a lot of assuming on this breeder that they can’t keep them or sell them etc. All the post said was they over bred (another concept I don’t understand, urm don’t breed so many in the first place, can’t imagine Welsh A are in high demand regardless of COVID).
It may be the breeder just didn’t want to fork out to keep them over winter, which to me is indiscriminate.
Hopefully they learn from this and haven’t done the same this year for next years foals.


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## Cortez (24 October 2020)

Of course it's not desirable (not even if the ponies were bred for meat), but if there was no-one to buy these ponies, or prepared to look after them, then it is at least responsible to ensure that they were not going to be neglected or abused.


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## maggie62 (25 October 2020)

No-one here knows the actual facts so we can all speculate as much as we like but the situation is we don't know. The stud could have issued a statement  .....and yes I know it is none of my or anyone's business blah blah, but it may have cleared up all the speculation. I hate the way some comments on here assume the people that are angry/upset etc are a kind of pitchfork brigade and want blood. I am a pensioner horse owner and yes I was very disturbed by the slaughter of these foals but I belong to no lynch mob. I am not going to apologise for looking at the world through rose coloured spectacles......it's the only way to see past all the cruelty/inhumanity/suffering in this world. Not being a horse owner all my life I never realised what is regarded as 'common practice'  like the culling of otherwise healthy horses in large numbers. Horses were never the problem, WE are the problem. This is my opinion before someone slates me for being ignorant/naive.


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## YorksG (25 October 2020)

maggie62 said:



			No-one here knows the actual facts so we can all speculate as much as we like but the situation is we don't know. The stud could have issued a statement  .....and yes I know it is none of my or anyone's business blah blah, but it may have cleared up all the speculation. I hate the way some comments on here assume the people that are angry/upset etc are a kind of pitchfork brigade and want blood. I am a pensioner horse owner and yes I was very disturbed by the slaughter of these foals but I belong to no lynch mob. I am not going to apologise for looking at the world through rose coloured spectacles......it's the only way to see past all the cruelty/inhumanity/suffering in this world. Not being a horse owner all my life I never realised what is regarded as 'common practice'  like the culling of otherwise healthy horses in large numbers. Horses were never the problem, WE are the problem. This is my opinion before someone slates me for being ignorant/naive.
		
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Why should the stud explain their legal actions to the general  public? They are not accountable to others and I certainly do not believe in trial by social media. As an aside, people looking at the world through rose tinted glasses, or pink fluff are the ones who, in general, allow all sorts of atrocities to happen.


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## Hannahkayj (25 October 2020)

YorksG said:



			Why should the stud explain their legal actions to the general  public? They are not accountable to others and I certainly do not believe in trial by social media. As an aside, people looking at the world through rose tinted glasses, or pink fluff are the ones who, in general, allow all sorts of atrocities to happen.
		
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could you imagine if they did release a statement they’d only be ridiculed even more. They’d not be happy no matter what they say.


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## maggie62 (25 October 2020)

YorksG said:



			Why should the stud explain their legal actions to the general  public? They are not accountable to others and I certainly do not believe in trial by social media. As an aside, people looking at the world through rose tinted glasses, or pink fluff are the ones who, in general, allow all sorts of atrocities to happen.
		
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You and people like you must like to feel superior ......and DON'T assume anything about me or put me into  the pink fluff brigade. You are insulting and so rude. You are probably the reason why so many people do not put comments on here. Did I say they were accountable to others...NO, Did I say it was ok to have trial by social media...NO. So get off your high horse. Friendly forum my ass


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## Hannahkayj (25 October 2020)

maggie62 said:



			You and people like you must like to feel superior ......and DON'T assume anything about me or put me into  the pink fluff brigade. You are insulting and so rude. You are probably the reason why so many people do not put comments on here. Did I say they were accountable to others...NO, Did I say it was ok to have trial by social media...NO. So get off your high horse. Friendly forum my ass
		
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Not overly sure what there is to feel superior about? She never assumed you at all you’ve just took it that way, this is a forum where people can share both views.


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## maggie62 (25 October 2020)

Hannahkayj said:



			Not overly sure what there is to feel superior about? She never assumed you at all you’ve just took it that way, this is a forum where people can share both views.
		
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I would also like to know what atrocities this person is inferring.


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## YorksG (25 October 2020)

maggie62 said:
No-one here knows the actual facts so we can all speculate as much as we like but the situation is we don't know. The stud could have issued a statement .....and yes I know it is none of my or anyone's business blah blah, but it may have cleared up all the speculation. I hate the way some comments on here assume the people that are angry/upset etc are a kind of pitchfork brigade and want blood. I am a pensioner horse owner and yes I was very disturbed by the slaughter of these foals but I belong to no lynch mob. I am not going to apologise for looking at the world through rose coloured spectacles......it's the only way to see past all the cruelty/inhumanity/suffering in this world. Not being a horse owner all my life I never realised what is regarded as 'common practice' like the culling of otherwise healthy horses in large numbers. Horses were never the problem, WE are the problem. This is my opinion before someone slates me for being ignorant/naive.
You described yourself as looking at the world through rose tinted glasses, it was a direct quote. The atrocities this person referred to, were actual cruelty cases against animals and people.
You began the rudeness imo


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## Tiddlypom (25 October 2020)

maggie62 said:



			You are probably the reason why so many people do not put comments on here.
		
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Which people won’t comment? I never get the argument that people are too scared to post in here. There’s nothing stopping people from posting, unless of course you break the forum terms like the poster who started a new thread just to identify the stud - she was actively encouraging the pitchfork brigade.

We understand that you are very upset about this. Those of us who have been in horses longer and have been involved with reputable rescue societies may have a more measured view.

Over breeding is a real problem, and it needs to be addressed, but this stud did secure the future of those unwanted weanlings. They did not end up like Gizmo.

You are too late for those ponies, but if you have the means you could take on an equine from a rescue.

Here is one of my RSPCA fosters, aged 3 here. She had been found abandoned and starved in a bare winter field with a dead companion. An absolute cracker of a pony. It was a honour to have her here and to play a part in handling and caring for her, and preparing her to go on to a happy and useful life.


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## rabatsa (25 October 2020)

stormox said:



			I never heard there was a minimum age for horses to be put down. Is there?
		
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Having read down pages and pages of regulations the only thing that jumped out was that animals UNDER 7 DAYS may not enter the food chain.


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## Ownedby4horses (25 October 2020)

I hate the thought that animals killed and that’s why I’m a vegetarian.
However, I am logical in that I understand how the world works, animals are bred for food.
In this instance (and one I suspect will face many studs), we are in the midst of a pandemic and people are running out of money and the horse market is very likely to be flooded with unwanted equines now the winter is hitting. The stud have been responsible in not allowing these ponies to be added to the welfare situation and I have to respect that they obviously had their reasons for taking them to where they did, rather than having them put to sleep at home.
I do not think a witch hunt and trial by social media is fair.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (25 October 2020)

maggie62 said:



			You and people like you must like to feel superior ......and DON'T assume anything about me or put me into  the pink fluff brigade. You are insulting and so rude. You are probably the reason why so many people do not put comments on here. Did I say they were accountable to others...NO, Did I say it was ok to have trial by social media...NO. So get off your high horse. Friendly forum my ass
		
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You certainly have a bee in your bonnet. People can disagree you know without it being a personal slur or the end of the world 🤷🏼‍♀️ 


ktj1891 said:



			well that ship has sailed but their responsibility is to look after them and not take the easy route for their own f*** up. IMO there is no excuse for breeding and then not ensuring the animals future. In this country we go on and on about indiscriminate breeding but yet the supposed ‘breeders’ are just as bad in a different disguise.

There’s also a lot of assuming on this breeder that they can’t keep them or sell them etc. All the post said was they over bred (another concept I don’t understand, urm don’t breed so many in the first place, can’t imagine Welsh A are in high demand regardless of COVID).
It may be the breeder just didn’t want to fork out to keep them over winter, which to me is indiscriminate.
Hopefully they learn from this and haven’t done the same this year for next years foals.
		
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They did ensure the animals future so I don’t get why you are so upset? These ponies won’t suffer, they won’t be passed from pillar to post and won’t end up in the welfare system? If they had gone in a potters lorry from the sales or had been bolted on the yard they wouldn’t be any less assured of their fate.

Responsible breeding does have a dark side and that culling those that don’t make the grade. Happens a lot in other countries. It’s not all fields full of happy ponies, nobody is saying perhaps the breeding doesn’t need looked at but you have to be pragmatic and realise that not all horses and ponies get a home.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (25 October 2020)

maggie62 said:



			You and people like you must like to feel superior ......and DON'T assume anything about me or put me into  the pink fluff brigade. You are insulting and so rude. You are probably the reason why so many people do not put comments on here. Did I say they were accountable to others...NO, Did I say it was ok to have trial by social media...NO. So get off your high horse. Friendly forum my ass
		
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You certainly have a bee in your bonnet don’t you? People can disagree without it being an insult or personal slur, I think it’s you that needs to come off your high horse 🤦🏼‍♀️


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## tristar (25 October 2020)

maggie62 said:



			No-one here knows the actual facts so we can all speculate as much as we like but the situation is we don't know. The stud could have issued a statement  .....and yes I know it is none of my or anyone's business blah blah, but it may have cleared up all the speculation. I hate the way some comments on here assume the people that are angry/upset etc are a kind of pitchfork brigade and want blood. I am a pensioner horse owner and yes I was very disturbed by the slaughter of these foals but I belong to no lynch mob. I am not going to apologise for looking at the world through rose coloured spectacles......it's the only way to see past all the cruelty/inhumanity/suffering in this world. Not being a horse owner all my life I never realised what is regarded as 'common practice'  like the culling of otherwise healthy horses in large numbers. Horses were never the problem, WE are the problem. This is my opinion before someone slates me for being ignorant/naive.
		
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well said and expressed thank you 

i have a pair of those specs , i put them on and go to my animals and enjoy our own bubble in this , as the song goes    `a world made of steel, made of stone`` can naff off


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## Cortez (25 October 2020)

As you may have noted I am firmly on the "better dead than neglected" side of this discussion. I have formed this opinion after many years of being involved first hand with breeding horses and animal welfare and rescue. Looking around my farm this morning I realised that there are only 4 animals here (out of nearly 20) that aren't rescues, some of them from truly appalling conditions. If people are getting so upset at the humane slaughter of three unwanted colts, just wait til they find out about what happens to dairy bull calves, male chicks in egg production hatcheries, slow greyhounds and thoroughbreds, barren sows, runt pedigree puppies, etc., etc. 

And before someone says they could all be rescued to "loving" homes; some of the most harrowing rescues I've ever been involved in have involved animal lovers that got animals to "rescue them from death" and then proceeded to treat them horrifically due to either ignorance or pure laziness, or both. I once said to one of these self-described "saviours" - it'd be better if she loved them less and fed/wormed/medicated them more.

If there is no-one to look after a domesticated animal, what do people propose to do with them? I have asked this question several times here; no answers yet.


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## Equine_Dream (25 October 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Well, a few things here. You "believe" but were they infact less than 6 months of age? And if so, is it legally relevant?



I sort of thought about this a bit. I could not drive healthy (if they were) colts to slaughter. I'd really have to be in a bad situation financially (or I guess even mentally?) to do so.
		
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It may not be illegal to shoot horses less than 6 months old but pulling them off their mothers before 6 months purely for them to be slaughtered...... I don't know about you but that wouldn't sit well with me morally.


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## milliepops (25 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			And before someone says they could all be rescued to "loving" homes; some of the most harrowing rescues I've ever been involved in have involved animal lovers that got animals to "rescue them from death" and then proceeded to treat them horrifically due to either ignorance or pure laziness, or both. I once said to one of these self-described "saviours" - it'd be better if she loved them less and fed/wormed/medicated them more.
		
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I have one of these, though fortunately for her she had a safety net but in some ways it's even worse that it nearly failed - a horse was loaned out from a charity, to people who already had one charity horse and appeared to be good horse people... but had to be seized back with intervention from the police as things turned nasty, because they had neglected her.  luckily this was picked up because they left a string of unpaid livery bills and someone eventually alerted the charity.  Horse lovers, taking in a rescue... if it had been one bought off the "meat man" or whatever, then no one would have been able to step in.

Despite having my own little herd of freebie/rescue horses (so proof that there are happy endings sometimes), i am very skeptical about the kinds of people that sometimes respond to those free to a good home types, i think you have to be extremely careful if giving away a horse and make sure you get someone who is realistic and not a dreamer.  and therefore pts one way or the other is the only guarantee that the horse won't end up on a downward spiral that ends in suffering.


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## Cortez (25 October 2020)

milliepops said:



			Despite having my own little herd of freebie/rescue horses (so proof that there are happy endings sometimes), i am very skeptical about the kinds of people that sometimes respond to those free to a good home types, i think you have to be extremely careful if giving away a horse and make sure you get someone who is realistic and not a dreamer.  and therefore pts one way or the other is the only guarantee that the horse won't end up on a downward spiral that ends in suffering.
		
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When I ran a stud farm I learned the hard way not to give free or token-payment horses to "good" homes, even those that seemed responsible and capable. I will never forgive myself for the suffering that I ultimately caused by trying to avoid having to do the right thing.


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## tristar (25 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			As you may have noted I am firmly on the "better dead than neglected" side of this discussion. I have formed this opinion after many years of being involved first hand with breeding horses and animal welfare and rescue. Looking around my farm this morning I realised that there are only 4 animals here (out of nearly 20) that aren't rescues, some of them from truly appalling conditions. If people are getting so upset at the humane slaughter of three unwanted colts, just wait til they find out about what happens to dairy bull calves, male chicks in egg production hatcheries, slow greyhounds and thoroughbreds, barren sows, runt pedigree puppies, etc., etc. 

And before someone says they could all be rescued to "loving" homes; some of the most harrowing rescues I've ever been involved in have involved animal lovers that got animals to "rescue them from death" and then proceeded to treat them horrifically due to either ignorance or pure laziness, or both. I once said to one of these self-described "saviours" - it'd be better if she loved them less and fed/wormed/medicated them more.

If there is no-one to look after a domesticated animal, what do people propose to do with them? I have asked this question several times here; no answers yet.
		
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to be honest in all fairness i am fully aware of all those other greyhounds calves pigs etc i have an all encompassing horrible picture in my head of it


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## stormox (25 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			It may not be illegal to shoot horses less than 6 months old but pulling them off their mothers before 6 months purely for them to be slaughtered...... I don't know about you but that wouldn't sit well with me morally.
		
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They cant be left with their mothers indefinately, especially colts they will soon be trying to cover her - and are fertile at 9 months. Anyway she will probably probably have another in utero and she cant support 2 if she does


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## Equine_Dream (25 October 2020)

stormox said:



			They cant be left with their mothers indefinately, especially colts they will soon be trying to cover her. Anyway she will probably probably have another in utero and she cant support 2 if she does
		
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Mares are evolved to have a foal at foot and be pregnant at the same time. They are pregnant for 11 months so how else would they produce foals yearly?
No one said for them to remain with the mare indefinitely but weaning early just for them to be slaughtered. Not ok imo. Legal or not.


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## Tiddlypom (25 October 2020)

Do we even know if the weanlings were under 6 months old, or is that more supposition?


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## Equine_Dream (25 October 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			Do we even know if the weanlings were under 6 months old, or is that more supposition?
		
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No we don't, but someone asked what the issue was legally if the foals were under 6 months, and I replied my opinion that while it may not be ILLEGAL that doesn't make it any less immoral. Last time I checked this is an open forum where people are free to comment opinions/views on a discussion yes?


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## Tiddlypom (25 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			No we don't, but someone asked what the issue was legally if the foals were under 6 months, and I replied my opinion that while it may not be ILLEGAL that doesn't make it any less immoral. Last time I checked this is an open forum where people are free to comment opinions/views on a discussion yes?
		
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Not questioning your viewpoint.

I am questioning the validity of the oft repeated (on this thread) statements-presented-as-fact that:-

1. The weanlings were under 6 months old.
2. It is illegal to slaughter equines under 6 months old.

If anyone can reliably confirm that either points 1 or 2 are true, or not true, then please do so. I genuinely do not know either way.


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## Cortez (25 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			Mares are evolved to have a foal at foot and be pregnant at the same time. They are pregnant for 11 months so how else would they produce foals yearly?
No one said for them to remain with the mare indefinitely but weaning early just for them to be slaughtered. Not ok imo. Legal or not.
		
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You seem to have very rigid ideas as to what other people are or are not allowed (by you) to do with their youngstock. While it is sort of an accepted norm to wean foals at around six months, foals can be weaned happily from around four months, and may have to be weaned earlier due to various circumstances. Leaving foals on for longer than six months tends to affect both mares and their offspring adversely and is often not practical. Most mares will start to wean their foals themselves from around 8 months, although some won't and I have seen 3 and 4 year olds still trying to suckle from their mothers.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (25 October 2020)

TP.
1. No confirmation either way, would need to check studbook
2. Not illegal.

Many big studs with natives aim to have them on the ground late March to early May, depending on their facilities, foals of course can be dropped either side of then.
To add, most breed sales are on around now and all require foals to have been weaned prior to sale (usually about 3 weeks, breed society depending). 
Foals to be entered in the sales must be fully registered prior to sale.


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## Equine_Dream (25 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			You seem to have very rigid ideas as to what other people are or are not allowed (by you) to do with their youngstock. While it is sort of an accepted norm to wean foals at around six months, foals can be weaned happily from around four months, and may have to be weaned earlier due to various circumstances. Leaving foals on for longer than six months tends to affect both mares and their offspring adversely and is often not practical. Most mares will start to wean their foals themselves from around 8 months, although some won't and I have seen 3 and 4 year olds still trying to suckle from their mothers.
		
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I'm fully aware that foals may be weaned before 6 months for various reasons. Also yes you do need to intervene with some that seem to be prepared to let their "foals" suckle indefinately (a lady on our old yard had a mare and foal where at 2yo the "foal" would still go for a cheeky suckle).
Weaning is not always pleasant and obviously sometimes needs to be done earlier than 6 months, but I don't agree with it being done early for the convenience of slaughtering foals. Just my opinion for what its worth


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## popcorn1 (25 October 2020)

I don't know what all the fuss is about. Sure it's sad to see such young lives brought to an end but the same can be said for any animal who we take swiftly out of this world to put on our plate. It makes zero difference that these were not bred for meat, a life is a life. 

I eat lamb. Lambs are delightful, sweet creatures. It is the life they lead up until death which is important to me. These were obviously happy, well looked after ponies.


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## Wishfilly (25 October 2020)

popcorn1 said:



			I don't know what all the fuss is about. Sure it's sad to see such young lives brought to an end but the same can be said for any animal who we take swiftly out of this world to put on our plate. It makes zero difference that these were not bred for meat, a life is a life.

I eat lamb. Lambs are delightful, sweet creatures. It is the life they lead up until death which is important to me. These were obviously happy, well looked after ponies.
		
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To me, it matters if it is symptomatic of too many foals being bred in general within the breed/local area. Obviously this year has been very unusual circumstances, but breeding without a thought about where the ponies will end up because there is the final option of the meat man does lead to welfare issues.

That's a general comment, not a comment on these specific ponies as such. 

In my opinion, reducing indiscriminate breeding tends to improve welfare standards for the breed as a whole. 

And as we are apparently having to prove our welfare credentials on the thread, I give time/money/energy to a local charity which helps rehome unwanted moorland ponies. If I ever had suitable facilities available, I'd love to adopt one of their ponies as well.


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## stormox (25 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			Mares are evolved to have a foal at foot and be pregnant at the same time. They are pregnant for 11 months so how else would they produce foals yearly?
No one said for them to remain with the mare indefinitely but weaning early just for them to be slaughtered. Not ok imo. Legal or not.
		
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They are, but it runs the mare down, just look at the state of the ponies in the New Forest and on Welsh Hills so it makes more sense to let her use the goodness from her feed for herself and her embryo and to let the older foals feed for themselves in groups.


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## Pedantic (25 October 2020)

If we are to talk about over breeding and killing the unwanted, rather than proper management, I can think of another species that overgrazes and ruins it's habitat all the time...


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## luckyoldme (25 October 2020)

Pedantic said:



			If we are to talk about over breeding and killing the unwanted, rather than proper management, I can think of another species that overgrazes and ruins it's habitat all the time...
		
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We are shit aren't we !


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## popcorn1 (25 October 2020)

stormox said:



			They are, but it runs the mare down, just look at the state of the ponies in the New Forest and on Welsh Hills so it makes more sense to let her use the goodness from her feed for herself and her embryo and to let the older foals feed for themselves in groups.
		
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I can't comment about Welsh Hill ponies, however your views on the mares in the New Forest are IMO very outdated. Stock are regularly checked and any animal deemed to be in a too poor condition is ordered off. Commoners have to have back up grazing for such eventualities. Stallions are turned out for just a few shorts weeks each year. Youngstock are very sought after, even during this pandemic, everyone I know has easily found homes for their colts and they have made decent prices. A good forest run mare is like gold dust here, they are next to never available for sale and if they do become available they are easily passed on through word of mouth and make very favourable prices given they are feral.


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## meleeka (25 October 2020)

popcorn1 said:



			I can't comment about Welsh Hill ponies, however your views on the mares in the New Forest are IMO very outdated. Stock are regularly checked and any animal deemed to be in a too poor condition is ordered off. Commoners have to have back up grazing for such eventualities. Stallions are turned out for just a few shorts weeks each year. Youngstock are very sought after, even during this pandemic, everyone I know has easily found homes for their colts and they have made decent prices. A good forest run mare is like gold dust here, they are next to never available for sale and if they do become available they are easily passed on through word of mouth and make very favourable prices given they are feral.
		
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I think a few colts still go for meat money at the Beaulieu Road sales, but I agree with you on the condition of the mares.  They are unrecognisable from those seen in winter 10 years ago and are well managed to make sure they don’t lose condition.


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## Equine_Dream (25 October 2020)

stormox said:



			They are, but it runs the mare down, just look at the state of the ponies in the New Forest and on Welsh Hills so it makes more sense to let her use the goodness from her feed for herself and her embryo and to let the older foals feed for themselves in groups.
		
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I'm not sure what studs you've experienced but ime the mares are in fantastic condition. I keep my horses on a yard that runs a Welsh D stud. I also bought my mare from another Welsh stud. The mares are pregnant yearly and foals are weaned at 6 months. Mares are kept in amazing condition and no worse for having a foal at foot and pregnant at the same time. 
It may be a different case with wild herds but these foals were not from a wild herd.


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## Equine_Dream (25 October 2020)

In any event as people have said we don't know the age of these foals, but I would like to hope that they were around 6 months or very near.


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## stormox (25 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			I'm not sure what studs you've experienced but ime the mares are in fantastic condition. I keep my horses on a yard that runs a Welsh D stud. I also bought my mare from another Welsh stud. The mares are pregnant yearly and foals are weaned at 6 months. Mares are kept in amazing condition and no worse for having a foal at foot and pregnant at the same time.
It may be a different case with wild herds but these foals were not from a wild herd.
		
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Yes. You wean the foals at 6 months. Someone was saying this was too early and should wean at 11 months like in nature and I said leaving a foal at foot on a pregnant mare for 11 months would run her down.


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## Cortez (25 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			In any event as people have said we don't know the age of these foals, but I would like to hope that they were around 6 months or very near.
		
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Just curious, but why? What difference would it make?


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## honetpot (25 October 2020)

popcorn1 said:



			I can't comment about Welsh Hill ponies, however your views on the mares in the New Forest are IMO very outdated. Stock are regularly checked and any animal deemed to be in a too poor condition is ordered off. Commoners have to have back up grazing for such eventualities. Stallions are turned out for just a few shorts weeks each year. Youngstock are very sought after, even during this pandemic, everyone I know has easily found homes for their colts and they have made decent prices. A good forest run mare is like gold dust here, they are next to never available for sale and if they do become available they are easily passed on through word of mouth and make very favourable prices given they are feral.
		
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NF pony stallions being turned out in a group for winter,



__ https://www.facebook.com/wildfireforgeUK/posts/1238671646494003


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## Equine_Dream (25 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			Just curious, but why? What difference would it make?
		
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Because, as I've previously said, while weaning foals early is sometimes necessary, I don't believe it should be done for the convenience of sending the foals to slaughter. Yes it ultimately doesn't matter now, but the idea doesn't sit well with me.


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## Equine_Dream (25 October 2020)

Stormox apologies but I think we've got ours wires crossed. I thought you meant weaning at 6 months. I quite agree there is no need for the foal to still be on the mare at almost a yearling.


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## Cortez (25 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			Because, as I've previously said, while weaning foals early is sometimes necessary, I don't believe it should be done for the convenience of sending the foals to slaughter. Yes it ultimately doesn't matter now, but the idea doesn't sit well with me.
		
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What a strange concern.....why on earth would the reason for weaning make the slightest difference? As ever, the concerns of the "slaughter is cruel" brigade are extremely bemusing to me. Slaughter is an unfortunately absolutely vital option where livestock is concerned.


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## Equine_Dream (25 October 2020)

With respect cortez we clearly hold very different views on this. You may find my opinion strange as I'll be honest, I find yours detached and cold. We clearly won't see eye to eye on this so I don't think there is much more to say.


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## Hannahkayj (25 October 2020)

I am quite amazed this has caused the uproar it has, did no one listen to Princess Anne? Do people think horse meat isn’t available in the UK?


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## stormox (25 October 2020)

Horsemeat was openly sold in the war- people queued up to buy it. I dont know when it became so abhorrent in the UK to eat horseflesh


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## Hannahkayj (25 October 2020)

stormox said:



			Horsemeat was openly sold in the war- people queued up to buy it. I dont know when it became so abhorrent in the UK to eat horseflesh
		
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exactly, wasn’t it sold in butchers after aswell? (I was born in the 90’s ) I’m sure my gran was telling me it was. Horse is good and quite healthy.


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## Lindylouanne (25 October 2020)

Don't ever go to the Netherlands then, they breed Shetlands specifically for meat. Fields full of them in the area near where I used to live and there was only ever going to be one end for them.


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## CanteringCarrot (25 October 2020)

I haven't seen much horse meat for sale here. Although I went to a small horse event of sorts a few years ago that had some demo rides, horse sales, chickens, vendors (tack and whatnot) as well as horse meat for sale. Kind of odd considering the audience there. 

A lot of dog food here has horse in it. You can easily buy horse bones and other dried horse products for chewing. I don't feed my dog anything horse. For some reason. I guess I feel weird about it since my other pet is a horse? I don't know.


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## Hannahkayj (25 October 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			I haven't seen much horse meat for sale here. Although I went to a small horse event of sorts a few years ago that had some demo rides, horse sales, chickens, vendors (tack and whatnot) as well as horse meat for sale. Kind of odd considering the audience there.

A lot of dog food here has horse in it. You can easily buy horse bones and other dried horse products for chewing. I don't feed my dog anything horse. For some reason. I guess I feel weird about it since my other pet is a horse? I don't know.
		
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was it Dartmoor conservation meat? They do a good selection, 

my dog would basically sell me if I didn’t get him a variety of raw food. Think it’s an unwritten contract of his love haha. Tbh I don’t know a lot who would buy say the equivalent of horse chew unless they feed raw so I don’t think you are alone in that aspect


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## conniegirl (25 October 2020)

Horse meat is available in supermarkets in Belgium.


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## Peregrine Falcon (25 October 2020)

Stormox, please refer to a previous post I made, I am happy to provide you with more information on the management of forest stock. As another poster has mentionned you may not be aware of the schemes that are in place here.


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## stormox (25 October 2020)

Peregrine Falcon said:



			Stormox, please refer to a previous post I made, I am happy to provide you with more information on the management of forest stock. As another poster has mentionned you may not be aware of the schemes that are in place here.
		
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If you actually read my post I was referring to wild ponies left to their own devices, like Bodmin moor and Dartmoors were, and NF s were very ropy looking until a few years back and a lot of black and white cobs seem to breed indiscriminately on canal banks producing weedy pot bellied big headed animals. 
I wasnt talking about studs or managed herds at all.


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## JulesRules (25 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			I think we are very hypocritical in this country, we eat beef, lamb, chicken etc but the thought of a horse going for meat is horrendous. People have no right to be assaulting studs for actually being responsible and disposing of excess stock.

This post won’t make me popular but the reality of the situation is if they cannot sell them and they cannot feed them then what  else are they supposed to do with them? Covid has a lot to answer for this year.
		
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Absolutely this..


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## Errin Paddywack (25 October 2020)

I see there is now a petition started to get the WCPS to ban them from registering any more ponies.  Horrendous.  I feel so sorry for the stud owners.


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## Hannahkayj (25 October 2020)

Errin Paddywack said:



			I see there is now a petition started to get the WCPS to ban them from registering any more ponies.  Horrendous.  I feel so sorry for the stud owners.
		
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The people who set that up have no care to the damage they are doing to them, I’m waiting on this “news article” turning up. Blasting the stud with assumptions


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## shirl62 (25 October 2020)

Hannahkayj said:



			exactly, wasn’t it sold in butchers after aswell? (I was born in the 90’s ) I’m sure my gran was telling me it was. Horse is good and quite healthy.
		
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I was born in the 1950's and horse meat was never on the menu...Of course I can only comment that I was brought up in Edinburgh , Scotland....


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## Hannahkayj (25 October 2020)

shirl62 said:



			I was born in the 1950's and horse meat was never on the menu...Of course I can only comment that I was brought up in Edinburgh , Scotland....
		
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She was in Glasgow around then, wonder if she’s got her wires crossed. Off I go to find out when butchers stopped selling it


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## FinnishLapphund (25 October 2020)

I think that it is sad that such young colts where taken to the abattoir, but I do not think that it is okay to videofilm someone at an abattoir, post it online, and start a witch hunt, because they came there with happy, seemingly well taken cared of animals. 

I mean, it's fine to complain about mistreated animals, and it's fine to disagree with a decision an owner have chosen to make regarding their well cared for animals. But saying that it is good that persons are witch hunted because you disagree with a decision they've made for their animals, which does not lead to the animal being mistreated, is in my opinion despicable. 

Where does it stop? If it's okay to do this now, what if these animal rights activists starts to film outside veterinary hospitals, so they can post those videos online if they disagreee with the decisions you've made for your animals? How would you feel if they started a witch hunt online because you decided to euthanise your horse for a leg problem, instead of amputating the leg, and giving it a prosthetic limb?


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## Hannahkayj (25 October 2020)

shirl62 said:



			I was born in the 1950's and horse meat was never on the menu...Of course I can only comment that I was brought up in Edinburgh , Scotland....
		
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I have found an article with a quick search that London sold horse meat in the 1950’s and in 1953 40 horse meat traders were operating. Interestingly there is also a sign from 1996 of a “cheval butcher” in the midlands.



FinnishLapphund said:



			I think that it is sad that such young colts where taken to the abattoir, but I do not think that it is okay to videofilm someone at an abattoir, post it online, and start a witch hunt, because they came there with happy, seemingly well taken cared of animals.

I mean, it's fine to complain about mistreated animals, and it's fine to disagree with a decision an owner have chosen to make regarding their well cared for animals. But saying that it is good that persons are witch hunted because you disagree with a decision they've made for their animals, which does not lead to the animal being mistreated, is in my opinion despicable.

Where does it stop? If it's okay to do this now, what if these animal rights activists starts to film outside veterinary hospitals, so they can post those videos online if they disagreee with the decisions you've made for your animals? How would you feel if they started a witch hunt online because you decided to euthanise your horse for a leg problem, instead of amputating the leg, and giving it a prosthetic limb?
		
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this is the thing, half of them were saying it was okay for older horses to go? Yet not for “cute fluffy ponies” as the woman who filmed this filmed older horses going. And not one mention of anyone going to the papers over it. Have had a few comments that I was terrible for the hunt coming to put down my horse after having serious leg issues. They seem to want them to live by whatever means possible, not caring if ones in pain


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## millikins (25 October 2020)

Hannahkayj said:



			I have found an article with a quick search that London sold horse meat in the 1950’s and in 1953 40 horse meat traders were operating. Interestingly there is also a sign from 1996 of a “cheval butcher” in the midlands.

Surely though this was a leftover from the war, rationing only ended in 1955 (I think). I don't think this country's ever had a culture of eating horse, except in exceptional circumstances.
		
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## Hannahkayj (25 October 2020)

Pretty sure before that we did seems to be documented that it was widely eaten up to 1930’s , we still can buy it and should, supports conservation.


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## PapaverFollis (25 October 2020)

FinnishLapphund said:



			I think that it is sad that such young colts where taken to the abattoir, but I do not think that it is okay to videofilm someone at an abattoir, post it online, and start a witch hunt, because they came there with happy, seemingly well taken cared of animals.

I mean, it's fine to complain about mistreated animals, and it's fine to disagree with a decision an owner have chosen to make regarding their well cared for animals. But saying that it is good that persons are witch hunted because you disagree with a decision they've made for their animals, which does not lead to the animal being mistreated, is in my opinion despicable.

Where does it stop? If it's okay to do this now, what if these animal rights activists starts to film outside veterinary hospitals, so they can post those videos online if they disagreee with the decisions you've made for your animals? How would you feel if they started a witch hunt online because you decided to euthanise your horse for a leg problem, instead of amputating the leg, and giving it a prosthetic limb?
		
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Exactly.  Exactly. Exactly. 

It's purity spiral madness.


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## ester (25 October 2020)

Now there's a poem. . . .


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## tristar (26 October 2020)

stormox said:



			They cant be left with their mothers indefinately, especially colts they will soon be trying to cover her - and are fertile at 9 months. Anyway she will probably probably have another in utero and she cant support 2 if she does
		
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and thereby lies  the crux,    ` she probably has another in utero` she is in foal again, when does this shxt stop, never mind we can always have the same pathetic discussion next year


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## tristar (26 October 2020)

ester said:



			Now there's a poem. . . . 

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should`nt  that be a requiem when death is involved,? or should we have a party in memory of the foals


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## tristar (26 October 2020)

Hannahkayj said:



			The people who set that up have no care to the damage they are doing to them, I’m waiting on this “news article” turning up. Blasting the stud with assumptions
		
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and they have no care of the damage they are doing breeding these animals year in year out


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## tristar (26 October 2020)

SO1 said:



			I think if you are breeding animals you do have a duty of care towards them.

If you are breeding companion animals that includes horses then you should be responsible and that means trying to give those animals the best start in life so they can find suitable homes. This may include gelding colts and halter breaking them making it easier for those who don't own their own land to able to buy them and keep at livery. Churning out large numbers of foals in the hope that one of them may be the next HOYS winner or a top competition horse without any thought about the others is irresponsible.

In this case what has happened may have been caused by death of the owner but it is perhaps a wake up call as to what probably happens in a lot of studs.

I wonder if there could be some sort of kitemark for studs with high welfare standards.
		
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i find this very sensible, we all know horses that are quiet to handle are more marketable, churning them out is the right word, it has gone on for as long as i can remember, which is a long time, we bought many a colt or filly that had not been touched, ever, until herded up to be sold, its a big effort to take a strong healthy wild foal and turn it into a civilized person, who can be lead, groomed,  feet picked up etc. and involves a certain skill, it adds value and opens up the ponies potential to have a  useful future life, this should really be started when the pony is on the mother, by the breeder

my grandfather was a great and knowledgeable horseman, three things he said that always stuck with me are, always be gentle with horses,  something i have been ridiculed on here for saying, but we just laugh about it,  take things slowly and give the horse a chance, many of his horses lived soundly into a great age, the other was about horsemeat, its not right to eat horses.

they were his opinions and i respect his right to them

a code of conduct for breeding societies, not breed standards, more ethical treatment of youngstock, that they should be handled and quiet to lead before being  offered for sale, that ponies that need to be culled from the breeding herd should be broken to ride where possible so have a purposeful future, because they are not dogs on a piece of string for the showring,  they are ponies for riding, that is the reason for their existence in the first place, and if en masse breeders are too bone idle  or unskilled to do the basic things they should not be breeding in the first place, breeders licence? 

because we all know things need to change, for the sake of the animals, things like these foals fate could be a catalyst for this becoming unacceptable, at the end of the day we are all agreed how sad it is.


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## rabatsa (26 October 2020)

I remember a horse meat butcher in Goole when I was growing up.  It was in the dock area and catered for passing ships as well as some locals.

I have eaten horsemeat in Belgium and enjoyed it.  It had been bought especially for me as my hosts knew that the British loved horse.


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## ycbm (26 October 2020)

rabatsa said:



			I have eaten horsemeat in Belgium and enjoyed it.  It had been bought especially for me as my hosts knew that the British loved horse.
		
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That could have gone very badly with another type of person 🤣


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## Hannahkayj (26 October 2020)

tristar said:



			and they have no care of the damage they are doing breeding these animals year in year out
		
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you have no proof she’s done this for next year. Have you seen her breeding books? Have you seen the scans? Or are you just wildly assuming


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## ester (26 October 2020)

tristar said:



			should`nt  that be a requiem when death is involved,? or should we have a party in memory of the foals
		
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Only if it doesn't contain so many assumptions about things like weaning


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## tristar (26 October 2020)

Hannahkayj said:



			you have no proof she’s done this for next year. Have you seen her breeding books? Have you seen the scans? Or are you just wildly assuming
		
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have you proof they have or have not,? or are you wildly assuming and asking me a question the answer to which none of us know

year in year out does no specify this year

do people who carry on like this have,  err,  breeding books and do they bother scanning have you proof of this?


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## Hannahkayj (26 October 2020)

tristar said:



			have you proof they have or have not,? or are you wildly assuming and asking me a question the answer to which none of us know

year in year out does no specify this year

do people who carry on like this have,  err,  breeding books and do they bother scanning have you proof of this?
		
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We aren’t the ones assuming though, you are claiming she has no care either. Of course they have breeders passports how do you think they register with the society 😂


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## Ownedby4horses (26 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			That could have gone very badly with another type of person 🤣
		
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God, my worst nightmare, I’m a horse obsessed vegetarian. 🤮


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## tristar (26 October 2020)

Hannahkayj said:



			We aren’t the ones assuming though, you are claiming she has no care either. Of course they have breeders passports how do you think they register with the society 😂
		
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frankly my dear, i don`t give damn


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## Hannahkayj (26 October 2020)

tristar said:



			frankly my dear, i don`t give damn
		
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You may not give a damn, you may be happy to watch someone’s world burn based merely on assumptions. But the vast majority of us who are rational don’t.


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## tristar (26 October 2020)

rabatsa said:



			I remember a horse meat butcher in Goole when I was growing up.  It was in the dock area and catered for passing ships as well as some locals.

I have eaten horsemeat in Belgium and enjoyed it.  It had been bought especially for me as my hosts knew that the British loved horse.
		
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it was probably welsh foal, or one the 5,000 two year old trotters slaughtered every year,


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## tristar (26 October 2020)

Hannahkayj said:



			You may not give a damn, you may be happy to watch someone’s world burn based merely on assumptions. But the vast majority of us who are rational don’t.
		
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i am not happy about any of it, especially about the foals being slaughtered, how dare you say that


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## Hannahkayj (26 October 2020)

tristar said:



			i am not happy about any of it, especially about the foals being slaughtered, how dare you say that
		
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You literally just said you don’t give a damn about making assumptions So what is it? don’t get upset about being quoted for what you’ve said


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## YorksG (26 October 2020)

tristar said:



			i am not happy about any of it, especially about the foals being slaughtered, how dare you say that
		
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Do you have the same level of anger over the slaughter of other animals?


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## Wishfilly (26 October 2020)

I think breeding horses specifically for meat is a completely separate consideration though? If people do that, with high welfare standards, then that's a completely different business model to the one some native pony breeders appear to engage in. Encouraging breeders to breed for the meat market to improve welfare can be a good thing sometimes- I do think it has benefited some Dartmoor Hill Ponies a bit, for example. 

But I don't think that's what's going on here or with Welsh Ponies in general? It seems more like some studs are producing foals they know may not sell because they have the back up option of sending them to slaughter- and that to me is a flawed business model, because overbreeding tends to reduce welfare in the breed/with horses in wider society. AFIAK, you don't hear of this ever happening with Fell or Dales ponies, for example? 

We condemn puppy farms, and rightly so, and this doesn't seem like a dissimilar business model to me?

Again, I'm not commenting on this specific breeder or the specific circumstances this year. I accept for them this _may _have been a one off due to the particular circumstances of this year. I don't think witch hunts are ever helpful, but it's surely worth having a rational conversation about breeding more generally?

If these ponies were of a rare breed that's in high demand, do people think their fate would have been the same?


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## Hannahkayj (26 October 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			I think breeding horses specifically for meat is a completely separate consideration though? If people do that, with high welfare standards, then that's a completely different business model to the one some native pony breeders appear to engage in. Encouraging breeders to breed for the meat market to improve welfare can be a good thing sometimes- I do think it has benefited some Dartmoor Hill Ponies a bit, for example.

But I don't think that's what's going on here or with Welsh Ponies in general? It seems more like some studs are producing foals they know may not sell because they have the back up option of sending them to slaughter- and that to me is a flawed business model, because overbreeding tends to reduce welfare in the breed/with horses in wider society. AFIAK, you don't hear of this ever happening with Fell or Dales ponies, for example?

We condemn puppy farms, and rightly so, and this doesn't seem like a dissimilar business model to me?

Again, I'm not commenting on this specific breeder or the specific circumstances this year. I accept for them this _may _have been a one off due to the particular circumstances of this year. I don't think witch hunts are ever helpful, but it's surely worth having a rational conversation about breeding more generally?

If these ponies were of a rare breed that's in high demand, do people think their fate would have been the same?
		
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fell and dales ponies do end up at slaughter too, drift sales one that can’t sell etc. Dartmoor ponies exmoor ponies. No breed is “exempt” from going to slaughter


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## YorksG (26 October 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			I think breeding horses specifically for meat is a completely separate consideration though? If people do that, with high welfare standards, then that's a completely different business model to the one some native pony breeders appear to engage in. Encouraging breeders to breed for the meat market to improve welfare can be a good thing sometimes- I do think it has benefited some Dartmoor Hill Ponies a bit, for example.

But I don't think that's what's going on here or with Welsh Ponies in general? It seems more like some studs are producing foals they know may not sell because they have the back up option of sending them to slaughter- and that to me is a flawed business model, because overbreeding tends to reduce welfare in the breed/with horses in wider society. AFIAK, you don't hear of this ever happening with Fell or Dales ponies, for example?

We condemn puppy farms, and rightly so, and this doesn't seem like a dissimilar business model to me?

Again, I'm not commenting on this specific breeder or the specific circumstances this year. I accept for them this _may _have been a one off due to the particular circumstances of this year. I don't think witch hunts are ever helpful, but it's surely worth having a rational conversation about breeding more generally?

If these ponies were of a rare breed that's in high demand, do people think their fate would have been the same?
		
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If they were "substandard" yes, the only way to improve the breed, whatever that is, is to ensure that any below par individuals do not breed. That pairing should obviously not be put together again!


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## Wishfilly (26 October 2020)

Hannahkayj said:



			fell and dales ponies do end up at slaughter too, drift sales one that can’t sell etc. Dartmoor ponies exmoor ponies. No breed is “exempt” from going to slaughter
		
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I'm well aware of what happens to Dartmoor and Exmoor ponies, but given that it can be pretty tricky to source Fell and Dales ponies even as youngsters, I'm pretty amazed they would end up going to slaughter. 

I don't think it's an inevitability.


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## Hannahkayj (26 October 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			I'm well aware of what happens to Dartmoor and Exmoor ponies, but given that it can be pretty tricky to source Fell and Dales ponies even as youngsters, I'm pretty amazed they would end up going to slaughter.

I don't think it's an inevitability.
		
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Of course they do sadly, the only reason we’ve heard of this is because the stud used the studs trailer. Think how many other breeds are on unmarked lorries


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## Wishfilly (26 October 2020)

YorksG said:



			If they were "substandard" yes, the only way to improve the breed, whatever that is, is to ensure that any below par individuals do not breed. That pairing should obviously not be put together again!
		
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If they were genuinely so conformationally flawed that they couldn't have a useful life, then obviously that is different- but I don't think we know this is the case? It's just rumours, isn't it?

If it's the same stallion and he's thrown three foals with major problems, then IMO he should be gelded and not used for breeding again. 

I do agree that circumstance is different, but I'm not sure it definitely applies here?


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## Wishfilly (26 October 2020)

Hannahkayj said:



			Of course they do sadly, the only reason we’ve heard of this is because the stud used the studs trailer. Think how many other breeds are on unmarked lorries
		
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I'm well aware of how many horses end up going to slaughter in the UK- but it's not common to send weanlings to slaughter in all breeding programs. Personally, I think it's an argument for breeding less horses in general, though.


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## windand rain (26 October 2020)

Answer is yes even rare breeds go to slaughter those those breed society demand no white in feet or face, those born an undersireable colour those with cleft pallets, parrot mouths wonky limbs and overbred with no market. It is a fact of life that those that are not wanted enter the food chain for either carnivores or humans. The problem is that laypeople do not understand that and have jumped on a destructive merry go round that some feel the need to destroy the people too


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## Hannahkayj (26 October 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			I'm well aware of how many horses end up going to slaughter in the UK- but it's not common to send weanlings to slaughter in all breeding programs. Personally, I think it's an argument for breeding less horses in general, though.
		
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I wouldn’t say “uncommon” just again the AR lot haven’t seen it. So haven’t filmed it, you’ve gotta think what happens to those very weanlings sold at lesser sales for next to nothing. Bought by the same buyer, maybe some studs just get the hunt to come do it.


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## Wishfilly (26 October 2020)

windand rain said:



			Answer is yes even rare breeds go to slaughter those those breed society demand no white in feet or face, those born an undersireable colour those with cleft pallets, parrot mouths wonky limbs and overbred with no market. It is a fact of life that those that are not wanted enter the food chain for either carnivores or humans. The problem is that laypeople do not understand that and have jumped on a destructive merry go round that some feel the need to destroy the people too
		
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Fair enough those born with conformational problems may need to be euthanised- personally, I think it is kinder at home, but I accept for commercial breeders, sending to abattoir means they at least get some money back. 

But to send a horse to slaughter because it's markings do not meet the breed standard does make me very uncomfortable. If it is otherwise sound and could have a good life outside the show ring, I feel it should be given that chance if at all possible. I don't accept that this should be a fact of life that we accept without question.


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## Wishfilly (26 October 2020)

Hannahkayj said:



			I wouldn’t say “uncommon” just again the AR lot haven’t seen it. So haven’t filmed it, you’ve gotta think what happens to those very weanlings sold at lesser sales for next to nothing. Bought by the same buyer, maybe some studs just get the hunt to come do it.
		
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Believe it or not, I'm not basing my perception of this on what has been filmed, and I'm not naive about what does go on with some breeds where lots of foals end up at low end sales. I'm not really thinking of native ponies at all anymore- but more sport horses/TBs (obviously a lot of TBs do end up going to slaughter later in life, though). 

Obviously a lot of native breeds are still bred in a very traditional way, and I just think it's worth having a conversation about whether this is still the right way to be breeding ponies in 2020?


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## milliepops (26 October 2020)

is it possible to register these ponies not meeting breed standards on some kind of secondary register?


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## ycbm (26 October 2020)

milliepops said:



			is it possible to register these ponies not meeting breed standards on some kind of secondary register?
		
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Couldn't they just get them a generic passport showing  parentage unknown? 

The idea of shooting a foal because it's got a white sock sickens me to the core.  
.


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## shortstuff99 (26 October 2020)

milliepops said:



			is it possible to register these ponies not meeting breed standards on some kind of secondary register?
		
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I think you can, for the PRE's if they have markings that aren't acceptable then they get accepted as 'PRE fusion register B' which was previously register 4 of Spanish type, so I can't see why the others can't do that too.


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## milliepops (26 October 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			Obviously a lot of native breeds are still bred in a very traditional way, and I just think it's worth having a conversation about whether this is still the right way to be breeding ponies in 2020?
		
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Going away from the original issue now, but I think firstly this links back to a discussion many pages ago about what the true cost of producing these ponies would be, if they were bred using AI  etc - many people are simply not prepared to pay what it costs

and secondly, short of some kind of licensing for breeding horses I don't know how you stop someone with some mares from running a stallion with them.  i just can't see it happening.


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## windand rain (26 October 2020)

Sadly not as the breeds are very specific. Minor white marking are sometimes sold as riding ponies but most dont sell them as they cannot guarantee the mare wont be bred from or be passed on pure bred The EU didnt help as they said every pony with a pedigree had to be sold as such.
I was howled down for suggesting every equine bred from should be graded and licenced from shetland to shire and in particular TBs as they have horrendous conformation defects but are sold for millions because mum and dad won races


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## milliepops (26 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			Couldn't they just get them a generic passport showing  parentage unknown?

The idea of shooting a foal because it's got a white sock sickens me to the core. 
.
		
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if people want to ensure responsible breeding and traceability then I think recording unknown breeding would be a mistake. that's why I was asking about a secondary register (thanks for confirming shortstuff i already thought that happened with PREs which is why I thought it may already happen with other breeds  )


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## Hannahkayj (26 October 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			Believe it or not, I'm not basing my perception of this on what has been filmed, and I'm not naive about what does go on with some breeds where lots of foals end up at low end sales. I'm not really thinking of native ponies at all anymore- but more sport horses/TBs (obviously a lot of TBs do end up going to slaughter later in life, though).

Obviously a lot of native breeds are still bred in a very traditional way, and I just think it's worth having a conversation about whether this is still the right way to be breeding ponies in 2020?
		
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I think we would be very surprised by the amount of sports horses who do end up in situations like this, it’s probably very common on the continent if someone doesn’t want a select few/not up to standard etc. I think we as a country are quite odd in how we think about it all.

How some feel it’s okay for an older horse to go? After years of working but a weanling isn’t.


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## Hannahkayj (26 October 2020)

windand rain said:



			Sadly not as the breeds are very specific. Minor white marking are sometimes sold as riding ponies but most dont sell them as they cannot guarantee the mare wont be bred from or be passed on pure bred The EU didnt help as they said every pony with a pedigree had to be sold as such.
I was howled down for suggesting every equine bred from should be graded and licenced from shetland to shire and in particular TBs as they have horrendous conformation defects but are sold for millions because mum and dad won races
		
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Absolutely 100% agree in the grading it’s shocking to see how many conformationally unsound horses that haven’t done anything to warrant passing on the faulty genes breed. Just because it has a uterus they need to breed apparently


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## Wishfilly (26 October 2020)

milliepops said:



			Going away from the original issue now, but I think firstly this links back to a discussion many pages ago about what the true cost of producing these ponies would be, if they were bred using AI  etc - many people are simply not prepared to pay what it costs

and secondly, short of some kind of licensing for breeding horses I don't know how you stop someone with some mares from running a stallion with them.  i just can't see it happening.
		
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In all honesty, I'd probably be in favour of licensing for breeding of all mammals at least- but I accept that's unlikely to happen any time soon. 

I agree that using AI etc would significantly increase costs, but there is probably a middle ground between using AI and having a stallion running with a large number of mares? Perhaps even just being more selective about the mares used, and reducing numbers in general? I don't know, I just think it's a conversation worth having. 

If there isn't a large demand for older section As, then it makes sense to breed less, I think?



Hannahkayj said:



			I think we would be very surprised by the amount of sports horses who do end up in situations like this, it’s probably very common on the continent if someone doesn’t want a select few/not up to standard etc. I think we as a country are quite odd in how we think about it all.

How some feel it’s okay for an older horse to go? After years of working but a weanling isn’t.
		
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I don't think it's okay for an older horse to go- but I was just using TBs as a breed where I'm pretty aware of the ages that they end up going to slaughter.


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## dorsetladette (26 October 2020)

milliepops said:



			if people want to ensure responsible breeding and traceability then I think recording unknown breeding would be a mistake. that's why I was asking about a secondary register (thanks for confirming shortstuff i already thought that happened with PREs which is why I thought it may already happen with other breeds  )
		
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I think this does happen within a few (rarer) breed societies. So you have different ratings or grades. but unfortunately the WPCS seem to spend so much time arguing between themselves and trying to out do each other that they are a long way behind many other breed societies. 

I think they grade stallions now, which is a help. But I think they could go a lot further than they have. And lets face it grading is done by a panel of judges so that is based on opinion. So like showing your stallion could 'win' or 'lose' depending on which judge was sat on the panel on a particular day.


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## ester (26 October 2020)

Re. registration, I think there was a lot of argument over breed societies not registering stock that didn't meet the standard as they were still purebred and I think they have to now have an option. 
Like welshies have section X. 

Was surprised to see a Dales (think!) with a white sock a while ago that had had a very successful show career.


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## Wishfilly (26 October 2020)

windand rain said:



			Sadly not as the breeds are very specific. Minor white marking are sometimes sold as riding ponies but most dont sell them as they cannot guarantee the mare wont be bred from or be passed on pure bred The EU didnt help as they said every pony with a pedigree had to be sold as such.
I was howled down for suggesting every equine bred from should be graded and licenced from shetland to shire and in particular TBs as they have horrendous conformation defects but are sold for millions because mum and dad won races
		
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FWIW, I agree with grading in terms of soundness and temperament, especially if only equines of a certain standard could then be bred from. But like licensing of breeders, I think it's unlikely to happen.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (26 October 2020)

Culling undesirable stock isn’t something to be hauled over the coals for IMO, highland studs can geld colts with undesirable markings or those who go over height but with the mares who is to say they won’t be bred from?

A secondary register is a good thought however how many passports are ‘lost’ and animals have chips removed and are redone as something else. It’s is a very good idea for all those playing by the rules however it is too easy to get new passports etc.

The colts weren’t selling, winter is here and we do not know the studs financial status. Many make their years living from the sales, this money keeps them for the rest of the year until the sales come around again. This hasn’t happened this year so they will be running at a loss.

They are no less dead for going to the abbatoir. Those saying shoot them at home well there isn’t really any difference other than walking onto a lorry or being winched.

To be honest if more conformationally challenged stock went into the food chain maybe we wouldn’t be hearing of all there young knackered horses with gentic problems, or those being buted and passed from dealer to dealer. Just my musings mind you 🤷🏼‍♀️


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## Hannahkayj (26 October 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			In all honesty, I'd probably be in favour of licensing for breeding of all mammals at least- but I accept that's unlikely to happen any time soon.

I agree that using AI etc would significantly increase costs, but there is probably a middle ground between using AI and having a stallion running with a large number of mares? Perhaps even just being more selective about the mares used, and reducing numbers in general? I don't know, I just think it's a conversation worth having.

If there isn't a large demand for older section As, then it makes sense to breed less, I think?



I don't think it's okay for an older horse to go- but I was just using TBs as a breed where I'm pretty aware of the ages that they end up going to slaughter.
		
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Oh no wasn’t meaning you just a few comments (not on here) how was okay for an over 5 (for example) to go but under not.


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## milliepops (26 October 2020)

dorsetladette said:



			I think this does happen within a few (rarer) breed societies. So you have different ratings or grades. but unfortunately the WPCS seem to spend so much time arguing between themselves and trying to out do each other that they are a long way behind many other breed societies.

I think they grade stallions now, which is a help. But I think they could go a lot further than they have. And lets face it grading is done by a panel of judges so that is based on opinion. So like showing your stallion could 'win' or 'lose' depending on which judge was sat on the panel on a particular day.
		
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interesting to know. thanks.  I'm a very proud owner of a welshie but so far out of the world of breed societies cos it all just seems so political  
I doubt mine would be very highly graded but she's a totally wonderful horse, and having full papers for her has opened competitive doors (not showing) that would have been firmly closed if she'd had a generic passport with no breeding recorded


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## Hannahkayj (26 October 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			Culling undesirable stock isn’t something to be hauled over the coals for IMO, highland studs can geld colts with undesirable markings or those who go over height but with the mares who is to say they won’t be bred from?

A secondary register is a good thought however how many passports are ‘lost’ and animals have chips removed and are redone as something else. It’s is a very good idea for all those playing by the rules however it is too easy to get new passports etc.

The colts weren’t selling, winter is here and we do not know the studs financial status. Many make their years living from the sales, this money keeps them for the rest of the year until the sales come around again. This hasn’t happened this year so they will be running at a loss.

They are no less dead for going to the abbatoir. Those saying shoot them at home well there isn’t really any difference other than walking onto a lorry or being winched.

To be honest if more conformationally challenged stock went into the food chain maybe we wouldn’t be hearing of all there young knackered horses with gentic problems, or those being buted and passed from dealer to dealer. Just my musings mind you 🤷🏼‍♀️
		
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Fully agree. See some sorry states being buted to be sound “he’s not in pain though” 🥴


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## Wishfilly (26 October 2020)

Hannahkayj said:



			Oh no wasn’t meaning you just a few comments (not on here) how was okay for an over 5 (for example) to go but under not.
		
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Fair enough! I do agree the age doesn't really make any difference- I don't think it matters if these weanlings were under 6 months or not.


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## Tarragon (26 October 2020)

tristar said:



			frankly my dear, i don`t give damn
		
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name that film


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## tristar (26 October 2020)

Tarragon said:



			name that film 

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gone with  the poo, closely associated with the wind


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## tristar (26 October 2020)

Hannahkayj said:



			You literally just said you don’t give a damn about making assumptions So what is it? don’t get upset about being quoted for what you’ve said
		
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it was you i was referring to, you are very jumpy are`nt you, statement not question

thank you, but, when i want you to speak on my behalf, i will ask you, politely

 it takes a bit more than you to upset me, you`ll have to try harder, if that is your aim


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## Hannahkayj (26 October 2020)

tristar said:



			it was you i was referring to, you are very jumpy are`nt you, statement not question
		
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I know hint why I said you might not give a damn. 🤦🏻‍♀️ Jebus wept


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## tristar (26 October 2020)

Hannahkayj said:



			I know hint why I said you might not give a damn. 🤦🏻‍♀️ Jebus wept
		
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is that supposed   to read  jesus, do not take the lords`s name in vain, especially on sunday

have a nice day, i`m just of to play with me rescues, so they don`t end up as horse meat ta ra


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## Hannahkayj (26 October 2020)

tristar said:



			is that supposed   to read  jesus, do not take the lords`s name in vain, especially on sunday

have a nice day, i`m just of to play with me rescues, so they don`t end up as horse meat ta ra
		
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It’s a Monday 🥴.
Okay have fun 🙂


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## tristar (26 October 2020)

Hannahkayj said:



			It’s a Monday 🥴.
Okay have fun 🙂
		
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i know what day it is,  was just pointing it out for future reference


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## shirl62 (26 October 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			If they were genuinely so conformationally flawed that they couldn't have a useful life, then obviously that is different- but I don't think we know this is the case? It's just rumours, isn't it?

If it's the same stallion and he's thrown three foals with major problems, then IMO he should be gelded and not used for breeding again.

I do agree that circumstance is different, but I'm not sure it definitely applies here?
		
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There was a previous post that said these foals were advertised for sale when they were 2 months old ( to be ready when they were weaned) so I can only assume they were of breed standard. I guess the point of this outcry is that it has brought media attention to the plight of ALL animals discarded like trash at the hands of man. I for one have been deeply affected by this and for all animals in similar situations.


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## Equine_Dream (26 October 2020)

tristar said:



			i find this very sensible, we all know horses that are quiet to handle are more marketable, churning them out is the right word, it has gone on for as long as i can remember, which is a long time, we bought many a colt or filly that had not been touched, ever, until herded up to be sold, its a big effort to take a strong healthy wild foal and turn it into a civilized person, who can be lead, groomed,  feet picked up etc. and involves a certain skill, it adds value and opens up the ponies potential to have a  useful future life, this should really be started when the pony is on the mother, by the breeder

my grandfather was a great and knowledgeable horseman, three things he said that always stuck with me are, always be gentle with horses,  something i have been ridiculed on here for saying, but we just laugh about it,  take things slowly and give the horse a chance, many of his horses lived soundly into a great age, the other was about horsemeat, its not right to eat horses.

they were his opinions and i respect his right to them

a code of conduct for breeding societies, not breed standards, more ethical treatment of youngstock, that they should be handled and quiet to lead before being  offered for sale, that ponies that need to be culled from the breeding herd should be broken to ride where possible so have a purposeful future, because they are not dogs on a piece of string for the showring,  they are ponies for riding, that is the reason for their existence in the first place, and if en masse breeders are too bone idle  or unskilled to do the basic things they should not be breeding in the first place, breeders licence?

because we all know things need to change, for the sake of the animals, things like these foals fate could be a catalyst for this becoming unacceptable, at the end of the day we are all agreed how sad it is.
		
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Your grandfather sounds like a lovely man Tristar.

If only there were more people who thought that way these days.


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## Wishfilly (26 October 2020)

shirl62 said:



			There was a previous post that said these foals were advertised for sale when they were 2 months old ( to be ready when they were weaned) so I can only assume they were of breed standard. I guess the point of this outcry is that it has brought media attention to the plight of ALL animals discarded like trash at the hands of man. I for one have been deeply affected by this and for all animals in similar situations.
		
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That's true. 

I think all the rumour and speculation in this case doesn't help. 

The rumour the foals were parrot mouthed is actually likely to be pretty damaging to the stud long term, so it's probably not something to be repeated as fact unless people are sure?


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## FinnishLapphund (26 October 2020)

YorksG said:



			Do you have the same level of anger over the slaughter of other animals?
		
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I have no idea what tristar feels, but speaking about people in general, I think that there seems to be a growing number of persons that does have that level of anger regarding any animals being slaughtered. 
Sadly it feels as if more and more people feel that it's their way, or no way, when it comes their personal decision to choose to not eat meat. 

What I don't get is that, at least here in Sweden, animal rights activists have targeted small, local abattoirs. According to what I've read, to the point that the majority of them have had to shut down, because they couldn't afford the safety costs anymore. 
So now most slaughter animals have to be transported longer distances to the remaining large abattoirs, which upsets the animal rights activists even more. I don't get it. If you shoot yourself in the foot, I think that you have nobody but yourself to blame.


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## Shilasdair (26 October 2020)

I'm a big believer in the value of horses' lives, in fact I've got two useless  ornamental horses slobbing about in the field and costing me time and money as I type this.  

But I'm also not really placed to judge other people - particularly not the owners of the stud, who after a bereavement and in a world turned upside down both socially and economically due to a global pandemic, should decide to humanely euthanise weanlings that they couldn't sell.


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## Clodagh (26 October 2020)

I haven't read it all...and I hope this isn't opening the discussion up too widely, but I hatch chickens every year, rare breeds or colours. I cull all the males that are not exceptional at 6 weeks. I hate doing it, and in fact now hatch far less than I used to to avoid it, but if you hatch an egg chances are no one wants if it is male, and at least 50% are. 
Incorrect females can be sold to pet homes.
So either let the rare breeds die out or become incorrect or unsound or cull.


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## shortstuff99 (26 October 2020)

The reason why activists get so passionate about it is they see it as the murder/slavery/genocide of animals. To them there is no nuance in that, you are either pro murder or you're against murder and that everyone should be against murder obviously. 

However, most non-activists are more pragmatic then that.


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## thefarsideofthefield (26 October 2020)

rabatsa said:



			I have eaten horsemeat in Belgium and enjoyed it.  It had been bought especially for me as my hosts knew that the British loved horse.
		
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Lucky they weren't based in Thailand ?


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## Cortez (26 October 2020)

shortstuff99 said:



			The reason why activists get so passionate about it is they see it as the murder/slavery/genocide of animals. To them there is no nuance in that, you are either pro murder or you're against murder and that everyone should be against murder obviously.

However, most non-activists are more pragmatic then that.
		
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I am familiar enough with several animal welfare organisations to have met many of the more outré types who seem to me to be very keen on "saving" everything, but don't actually do anything when push comes to shove and the shit is literally flying. I have a feeling that most activists have had little practical experience of breeding and caring for animals.


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## teddypops (26 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



			I haven't read it all...and I hope this isn't opening the discussion up too widely, but I hatch chickens every year, rare breeds or colours. I cull all the males that are not exceptional at 6 weeks. I hate doing it, and in fact now hatch far less than I used to to avoid it, but if you hatch an egg chances are no one wants if it is male, and at least 50% are.
Incorrect females can be sold to pet homes.
So either let the rare breeds die out or become incorrect or unsound or cull.
		
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Colts can be gelded.


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## stormox (26 October 2020)

And what about dogs then? Just one example -  merle is a common colour in the Australian Shepherd. Breeding merle to merle creates 25% white or problem (deaf, no  eyes, etc) puppies , without going heavily into genetics merle has a dilute gene, and 2 dilute genes produce the lethal white gene.
So do breeders not breed merle to merle? No - they carry on to keep the colour in the breed, and cull the resulting defective puppies.
This goes on in nearly all breeds where the desired trait is a mutation- the unhealthy ones are culled.
IMO breeders shouldnt breed these dogs, but pugs, french bullies etc etc are very popular so they carry on breeding and killing.


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## ester (26 October 2020)

I don't think anyone should be breeding merle to merle, there is no need to to keep the colour in the breed.


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## Gingerwitch (26 October 2020)

Sorry to be blunt. If you are skint, cracking up and bereft cause your mum has died and all the assets are stuck in probate and the world has stopped functioning because of covid - unless your in a ring fenced industry and don't give a crap about the rest of the world cause you are not affected - banks usually !  Have tried to sell, can't afford to geld keep and bring in for another 12 months. You do some thing legal and get vilifilled. How awful ! The colts are not in pain are not suffering and did not get left to starve to death over winter but these folk are being treated like animal abusers. They are not. They did what they thought was the best thing to do and now we want to bring down their business !! Just who is being cruel to who now ?


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## FinnishLapphund (26 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



			I haven't read it all...and I hope this isn't opening the discussion up too widely, but I hatch chickens every year, rare breeds or colours. I cull all the males that are not exceptional at 6 weeks. I hate doing it, and in fact now hatch far less than I used to to avoid it, but if you hatch an egg chances are no one wants if it is male, and at least 50% are.
Incorrect females can be sold to pet homes.
So either let the rare breeds die out or become incorrect or unsound or cull.
		
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The important thing to me is that as little as possible go to waste. I know a dog owner who buys, and stuff her freezer full with culled male chickens. That is the base diet which she feeds her dogs on. 
I don't remember if she said she served them frozen or partially thawed, but she definitely said they were whole, small, culled male chickens.


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## Clodagh (26 October 2020)

stormox said:



			And what about dogs then? Just one example -  merle is a common colour in the Australian Shepherd. Breeding merle to merle creates 25% white or problem (deaf, no  eyes, etc) puppies , without going heavily into genetics merle has a dilute gene, and 2 dilute genes produce the lethal white gene.
So do breeders not breed merle to merle? No - they carry on to keep the colour in the breed, and cull the resulting defective puppies.
This goes on in nearly all breeds where the desired trait is a mutation- the unhealthy ones are culled.
IMO breeders shouldnt breed these dogs, but pugs, french bullies etc etc are very popular so they carry on breeding and killing.
		
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Merle to non merle will produce a percentage of merle. Do you actually know that this culling happens?
I know it does in ridgebacks and so on, without a ridge they are culled. I don't get that.


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## Clodagh (26 October 2020)

FinnishLapphund said:



			The important thing to me is that as little as possible go to waste. I know a dog owner who buys, and stuff her freezer full with culled male chickens. That is the base diet which she feeds her dogs on.
I don't remember if she said she served them frozen or partially thawed, but she definitely said they were whole, small, culled male chickens.
		
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I don't feed raw but they go to a friend for his hawks and ferrets.


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## stormox (26 October 2020)

ester said:



			I don't think anyone should be breeding merle to merle, there is no need to to keep the colour in the breed.
		
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No  NEED, but the colour is the most popular. No NEED for pugs etc to have squashed faces, but people want them. Breeders breed what people want, what judges put up at shows, what sells.
Whether its horse dog or chicken - its us consumers who dictate what breeders breed.


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## Clodagh (26 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			Colts can be gelded.
		
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I agree with this, and also agree with the appalling breeding standards in the Welsh pony industry, so far as I know it is far worse than any other native. I don't have a strong opninion on these colts, in this situation, this year, going to slaughter.


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## Clodagh (26 October 2020)

stormox said:



			No  NEED, but the colour is the most popular. No NEED for pugs etc to have squashed faces, but people want them. Breeders breed what people want, what judges put up at shows, what sells.
Whether its horse dog or chicken - its us consumers who dictate what breeders breed.
		
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No one ever need cull a pug or a bulldog though, so far as I can see the less functional it is the more people will cough up a fortune for it.


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## stormox (26 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



			Merle to non merle will produce a percentage of merle. Do you actually know that this culling happens?
I know it does in ridgebacks and so on, without a ridge they are culled. I don't get that.
		
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Yes i do. A friend of mine imported the first ones into UK in the early 80s. Merle is a recessive and will eventually die out if not specifically bred for.


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## Clodagh (26 October 2020)

stormox said:



			Yes i do. A friend of mine imported the first ones into UK in the early 80s
		
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Wow, and she does this!?


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## ester (26 October 2020)

stormox said:



			No  NEED, but the colour is the most popular. No NEED for pugs etc to have squashed faces, but people want them. Breeders breed what people want, what judges put up at shows, what sells.
Whether its horse dog or chicken - its us consumers who dictate what breeders breed.
		
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I'm not sure you understand what I was saying. You were saying they breed merle to merle to keep the colour in the breed, you don't.

(oh and it's a dominant, not recessive so maybe we did need to get into the genetics a bit more)


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## stormox (26 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



			Wow, and she does this!?
		
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  Sadly she and her partner have since died, but she did.  It is still done though, and I believe the breed is still sometimes docked too although a good percentage of them are actually born bob tail.


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## stormox (26 October 2020)

ester said:



			I'm not sure you understand what I was saying. You were saying they breed merle to merle to keep the colour in the breed
		
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That is why I thought they did it, but maybe its just because certain good dogs they wanted to use were merle, it was certainly done and any mostly white puppies killed.  I think if you get a merle that is homozygous (merle from both parents) it is more likely to breed merle puppies from a tri  or solid than a heterozygous merle.

Please correct me if Im wrong,


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## ester (26 October 2020)

Well they don't need to which is handy as the results of a merle to merle mating are unregisterable for some breeds now.


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## Jeni the dragon (26 October 2020)

Just going back to the bit where Fell and Dale's ponies were being discussed, Fell ponies have an X register for ponies with "excessive white". Before I bought mine, I went to the FPS sale quite often. There would easily be 80 odd weanlings,  mainly from a few big named studs, and most of the colts were bought be the meatman. 

I really feel for the stud in question. It must have been very tough for them. But its definitely not something I'm against happening.


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## FinnishLapphund (26 October 2020)

stormox said:



			And what about dogs then? Just one example -  merle is a common colour in the Australian Shepherd. Breeding merle to merle creates 25% white or problem (deaf, no  eyes, etc) puppies , without going heavily into genetics merle has a dilute gene, and 2 dilute genes produce the lethal white gene.
So do breeders not breed merle to merle? No - they carry on to keep the colour in the breed, and cull the resulting defective puppies.
This goes on in nearly all breeds where the desired trait is a mutation- the unhealthy ones are culled.
IMO breeders shouldnt breed these dogs, but pugs, french bullies etc etc are very popular so they carry on breeding and killing.
		
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I've owned a Tricoloured Smooth Collie, and from what I can recall from what I read about Collies, Rough, and Smooth, the Merle gene in dogs are partially dominant (something about an incompletely dominant gene I think it says). In Sweden you're only allowed to breed a Blue Merle Collie with a Tricoloured. It is enough that a puppy from such a combination inherit the gene from one of their parents, to become Blue Merle. 

You can not register a Collie with two Blue Merle parents in the Swedish Kennelklubben. Since a Sobel coloured puppy from a Sobel x Blue Merle combination can carry a not visible Merle gene, that colour combination is also not allowed. 

Since Blue Merle Collies in Sweden is as healthy as a Sobel, or Tricoloured Collie, I fail to see a problem with Swedish breeders breeding them.


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## Clodagh (26 October 2020)

ester said:



			Well they don't need to which is handy as the results of a merle to merle mating are unregisterable for some breeds now.
		
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FinnishLapphund said:



			You can not register a Collie with two Blue Merle parents in the Swedish Kennelklubben. Since a Sobel coloured puppy from a Sobel x Blue Merle combination can carry a not visible Merle gene, that colour combination is also not allowed.

Since Blue Merle Collies in Sweden is as healthy as a Sobel, or Tricoloured Collie, I fail to see a problem with Swedish breeders breeding them.
		
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I'm pleased to see that it seems that for once the Kennel Club is actually on the ball with a health issue!


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## FinnishLapphund (26 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



			Merle to non merle will produce a percentage of merle. Do you actually know that this culling happens?
I know it does in ridgebacks and so on, without a ridge they are culled. I don't get that.
		
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I have heard about that it has happened also in Sweden, but as I've understood it, it is only a minority of breeders who have done this, and not many, if any, does it today.

According to what I've read, in around 1 puppy per 200 Rhodesian Ridgebacks in Sweden is born without a ridge. Also according to what I've read, Rhodesian Ridgebacks often have litters with around 9 puppies in Sweden, so with my lousy sense for mathematics, I presume that means statistically 1 puppy per around 22 litters is born without a ridge? 
I could very well be wrong, and it also might be different numbers for other countries, but I thought it might be interesting to know in around how often it occurs.


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## FinnishLapphund (26 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



			I'm pleased to see that it seems that for once the Kennel Club is actually on the ball with a health issue!
		
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I don't know about the English KC, but as I recall it, the Swedish Kennelklubben had that rule already when I bought my late Smooth Collie back in 1993.


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## Gloi (26 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			Colts can be gelded.
		
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Which can cost more than they will sell for.


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## teddypops (26 October 2020)

Gloi said:



			Which can cost more than they will sell for.
		
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That’s not the point I was making.


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## Cortez (26 October 2020)

teddypops said:



			That’s not the point I was making.
		
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Yes, but it is the point which is relevant.


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## teddypops (26 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			Yes, but it is the point which is relevant.
		
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Not the only relevant point.


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## Gloi (26 October 2020)

It's the reason Dragon Driving is full of dirt cheap colts for sale though.


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## teddypops (26 October 2020)

Gloi said:



			It's the reason Dragon Driving is full of dirt cheap colts for sale though.
		
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I was making the point that horses are not like other male animals that there is no use for them other than breeding. Horses can be gelded and used for riding/ driving. They don’t have to be killed just for being male. I am aware of the financial aspect.


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## Gloi (26 October 2020)

Which of these will you take home then
https://www.dragondriving.co.uk/horsesunder1000.php


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## teddypops (26 October 2020)

Gloi said:



			Which of these will you take home then
https://www.dragondriving.co.uk/horsesunder1000.php

Click to expand...




Gloi said:



			Which of these will you take home then
https://www.dragondriving.co.uk/horsesunder1000.php

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Why would I take any home?


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## Steerpike (26 October 2020)

On one advert it describes colour as browny ginger......


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## milliepops (26 October 2020)

Gloi said:



			Which of these will you take home then
https://www.dragondriving.co.uk/horsesunder1000.php

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yeah it really is very striking that the colts are all up for peanuts. 
I have half an eye on DD as would like a foal to run on with mine but....... i don't want a colt either  there are sooo many.


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## tristar (26 October 2020)

Equine_Dream said:



			Your grandfather sounds like a lovely man Tristar.

If only there were more people who thought that way these days.
		
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thank you tarragon


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## PapaverFollis (26 October 2020)

Gloi said:



			Which of these will you take home then
https://www.dragondriving.co.uk/horsesunder1000.php

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Do you think the stallion called "Worrier" on page 2 thinks that he's called "Warrior"?

😂


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## Clodagh (26 October 2020)

milliepops said:



			yeah it really is very striking that the colts are all up for peanuts.
I have half an eye on DD as would like a foal to run on with mine but....... i don't want a colt either  there are sooo many.
		
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I bought a funny looking thing to keep my foal company, he was gelded but tbh if you can get one for peanuts getting them gelded is relatively cost effective. I sold mine when he was no longer needed to TheresaW on here. He cost me money overall but was a real plus.


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## Schollym (26 October 2020)

I bought a Welsh A foal from a saved from slaughter ad in the local paper many years ago, lost her last year at the age of 39. Would have more if space and money allowed but having seen time and time again, the rescue organisations collecting horses and ponies in terrible condition because hoarders have bought these animals for a pittance. However unsavoury it is, better a short life that long years suffering.


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## TheresaW (26 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



			I bought a funny looking thing to keep my foal company, he was gelded but tbh if you can get one for peanuts getting them gelded is relatively cost effective. I sold mine when he was no longer needed to TheresaW on here. He cost me money overall but was a real plus.
		
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A funny looking thing! I won’t tell him that 🤣


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## Leah3horses (26 October 2020)

Generalisations are not helpful, not all us vegans / animal rights activists are hysterical 'fluffies' , some of us actually work in the traumatic world of animal rescue/ veterinary science. Some of us are both rational and empathetic. I personally can only behave as my ethics allow. So I have never and will never treat any other species as a commodity, disposable or  non sentient. I've never eaten animal flesh, don't wear animal skin , don't use force towards my friends who are other species. Yet neither will I condemn any other human for behaving in ways that their own individual ethics allow. I will always hope that humans continue to evolve and develop stronger ethics towards other species and each other, because animal rights and human rights are very closely intertwined, which is not widely recognised by all the generalisations that fly around so easily. We need to be kinder to each other and other species, to reduce using other species as vehicles for our own egos, as commodities, as  easily expendable, as excuses to carry on barbaric traditions that have no place in supposedly civilised societies. If humans didn't treat other species as commodities, this pandemic that has turned the world upside down would never have happened. We are reaping what we sow, we as a species should be looking at the bigger picture. Covid, foals to slaughter, puppy farms, orang utans trying to fight off huge machines ripping their forests down in Borneo, coral reefs dying off in Australia etc etc ,these are all just  sad symptoms of what we are doing to our home and fellow species. We aren't learning what nature is trying to teach us.   We are a plague.


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## maggie62 (26 October 2020)

Leah3horses said:



			Generalisations are not helpful, not all us vegans / animal rights activists are hysterical 'fluffies' , some of us actually work in the traumatic world of animal rescue/ veterinary science. Some of us are both rational and empathetic. I personally can only behave as my ethics allow. So I have never and will never treat any other species as a commodity, disposable or  non sentient. I've never eaten animal flesh, don't wear animal skin , don't use force towards my friends who are other species. Yet neither will I condemn any other human for behaving in ways that their own individual ethics allow. I will always hope that humans continue to evolve and develop stronger ethics towards other species and each other, because animal rights and human rights are very closely intertwined, which is not widely recognised by all the generalisations that fly around so easily. We need to be kinder to each other and other species, to reduce using other species as vehicles for our own egos, as commodities, as  easily expendable, as excuses to carry on barbaric traditions that have no place in supposedly civilised societies. If humans didn't treat other species as commodities, this pandemic that has turned the world upside down would never have happened. We are reaping what we sow, we as a species should be looking at the bigger picture. Covid, foals to slaughter, puppy farms, orang utans trying to fight off huge machines ripping their forests down in Borneo, coral reefs dying off in Australia etc etc ,these are all just  sad symptoms of what we are doing to our home and fellow species. We aren't learning what nature is trying to teach us.   We are a plague.
		
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'Man' interfering with nature was always going to end badly


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## Equi (26 October 2020)

Well the age of man will end all the faster for the crappy way we behave. Then nature will reclaim the land and life will evolve again. So there’s always a silver lining eh.


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## shortstuff99 (26 October 2020)

Is this where we insert a Jeff Goldblum meme?


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## FinnishLapphund (27 October 2020)

shortstuff99 said:



			Is this where we insert a Jeff Goldblum meme?
		
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## tristar (27 October 2020)

Leah3horses said:



			Generalisations are not helpful, not all us vegans / animal rights activists are hysterical 'fluffies' , some of us actually work in the traumatic world of animal rescue/ veterinary science. Some of us are both rational and empathetic. I personally can only behave as my ethics allow. So I have never and will never treat any other species as a commodity, disposable or  non sentient. I've never eaten animal flesh, don't wear animal skin , don't use force towards my friends who are other species. Yet neither will I condemn any other human for behaving in ways that their own individual ethics allow. I will always hope that humans continue to evolve and develop stronger ethics towards other species and each other, because animal rights and human rights are very closely intertwined, which is not widely recognised by all the generalisations that fly around so easily. We need to be kinder to each other and other species, to reduce using other species as vehicles for our own egos, as commodities, as  easily expendable, as excuses to carry on barbaric traditions that have no place in supposedly civilised societies. If humans didn't treat other species as commodities, this pandemic that has turned the world upside down would never have happened. We are reaping what we sow, we as a species should be looking at the bigger picture. Covid, foals to slaughter, puppy farms, orang utans trying to fight off huge machines ripping their forests down in Borneo, coral reefs dying off in Australia etc etc ,these are all just  sad symptoms of what we are doing to our home and fellow species. We aren't learning what nature is trying to teach us.   We are a plague.
		
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  what a brilliant post, the best on here for a long time,  thank you for your thoughts


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## tristar (27 October 2020)

equi said:



			Well the age of man will end all the faster for the crappy way we behave. Then nature will reclaim the land and life will evolve again. So there’s always a silver lining eh.
		
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i`ve been thinking that lately


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## Cortez (27 October 2020)

equi said:



			Well the age of man will end all the faster for the crappy way we behave. Then nature will reclaim the land and life will evolve again. So there’s always a silver lining eh.
		
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Hopefully before we have driven even more of the beautiful animals on this planet to extinction. I don't have the slightest problem with humans disappearing, but the thought of there being no wildlife reduces me to despair.


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## Mule (27 October 2020)

rabatsa said:



			I remember a horse meat butcher in Goole when I was growing up.  It was in the dock area and catered for passing ships as well as some locals.

I have eaten horsemeat in Belgium and enjoyed it.  It had been bought especially for me as my hosts knew that the British loved horse.
		
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rabatsa said:



			I remember a horse meat butcher in Goole when I was growing up.  It was in the dock area and catered for passing ships as well as some locals.

I have eaten horsemeat in Belgium and enjoyed it.  It had been bought especially for me as my hosts knew that the British loved horse.
		
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🤣🤣


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## ycbm (27 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			Hopefully before we have driven even more of the beautiful animals on this planet to extinction. I don't have the slightest problem with humans disappearing, but the thought of there being no wildlife reduces me to despair.
		
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Have you ever tried telling a profoundly Christian person that the world doesn't need mankind on it to function?

He's not spoken to me since, but his look of horror and contempt was a picture!


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## Mule (27 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			Have you ever tried telling a profoundly Christian person that the world doesn't need mankind on it to function?

He's not spoken to me since, but his look of horror and contempt was a picture!
		
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It's interesting, I've never thought humans are all that special as a species. Thinking about it, there have been quite a few early human species, some died off and homo sapiens became dominant. I'd imagine if we died off another, similar species might well emerge so it wouldn't be that big of a deal.


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## Cortez (27 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			Have you ever tried telling a profoundly Christian person that the world doesn't need mankind on it to function?

He's not spoken to me since, but his look of horror and contempt was a picture!
		
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Ah, that would come under the "God gave us dominion over every living thing" protocol I would imagine. God/bible has a lot to answer for.....


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## mariew (27 October 2020)

Just have a look at David Attenborough's latest one should give you some timeframes. It really won't be long if we carry on as we are now.


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## Gingerwitch (27 October 2020)

mariew said:



			Just have a look at David Attenborough's latest one should give you some timeframes. It really won't be long if we carry on as we are now.
		
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That's why when I start to loose my 4 they are not being replaced. I want to be able.to.die happy knowing that mine are not going to be left in a half life of being semi tame and having to go feral. X


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## thefarsideofthefield (27 October 2020)

equi said:



			Well the age of man will end all the faster for the crappy way we behave. Then nature will reclaim the land and life will evolve again. So there’s always a silver lining eh.
		
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I have a theory that  , despite the almost certain probability that there are other planets in the universe that sustain some form of life , we have not been able to make any form of contact with them because they have evolved along the same lines as us . Given the very likely probability that humans will cause their own extinction , it is possible that this has also happened to other ' intelligent ' life forms when they reach a similar point in their own evolution ie there is either no similar intelligent ( I use the term lightly ) life to make contact with because it has not yet evolved to that point , or that it has evolved to that point but it has then made itself extinct . We reach a certain point and then we cause our own demise . Maybe we're not supposed to rule the world for ever  . I suspect not . I actually find it very comforting to think that humans will gradually die out but the earth will go on and , yes , we may have caused chaos , but the world will recover and heal itself . Nature will recover , new life forms will evolve to replace the ones we have wiped out .' Intelligent' life may or may not re emerge , but if it does I suspect it may well follow the same pattern . Maybe it's supposed to ?
Sorry - bit deep for a wet Tuesday lunchtime .


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## FinnishLapphund (27 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			Have you ever tried telling a profoundly Christian person that the world doesn't need mankind on it to function?

He's not spoken to me since, but his look of horror and contempt was a picture!
		
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I'm Christian (Methodist). But it's my Asperger's/autistic traits of disliking changes, which triggers anxiety, that gives me problem when I think of a future without humans. My Christian faith in that there is something beyond this life, is something which helps me keeping my anxiety at, mostly, manageable levels. 
By the way, knowing that our sun is going to die at some point in the future, is a knowledge I try my best to forget that I know about. That's a really huge change, and I don't like the thought of it at all.

Some people builds their beliefs, and focus, on the negative parts in the Bible. People like me builds our beliefs, and focus, on the positive parts.

The very best sermon I've ever heard was by Jonas Gardell, novelist, playwright, screenwriter, comedian, Christian, and homosexual. 
He focused on a good, kind, and forgiving God, on how Jesus welcomed everyone to come to him, and how Jesus told his followers that they where wrong to send anyone away from him. Gardell feels that Jesus would never send him away because he's a homosexual, and that a good, kind, and forgiving God would not reject him because he's married to a man.

Anyhow, I don't tar all vegetarians, or vegans, with the same brush. But if you're a militant vegan/some other type of radical believer, who's trying to force your beliefs on to others, then yes, I do indeed not like it.


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## Odyssey (27 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			Have you ever tried telling a profoundly Christian person that the world doesn't need mankind on it to function?

He's not spoken to me since, but his look of horror and contempt was a picture!
		
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I'm a Christian, but a free thinking one, I don't believe everything the Bible says. It was written such a long time ago, and life has changed so much. I also don't believe it's meant to be taken literally.  I often wonder what God was thinking when he created man! I think we're just a blight on this beautiful planet, and I despair at the way we're wrecking it, and inflicting untold suffering on millions of animals. 😢 If we carry on as we are, and keep bringing so many more people into being (which we obviously will), the sooner we die out the better. Unfortunately for nature, I can't see how that could happen, barring possibly a huge meteorite wiping us out.


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## tristar (27 October 2020)

Odyssey said:



			I'm a Christian, but a free thinking one, I don't believe everything the Bible says. It was written such a long time ago, and life has changed so much. I also don't believe it's meant to be taken literally.  I often wonder what God was thinking when he created man! I think we're just a blight on this beautiful planet, and I despair at the way we're wrecking it, and inflicting untold suffering on millions of animals. 😢 If we carry on as we are, and keep bringing so many more people into being (which we obviously will), the sooner we die out the better. Unfortunately for nature, I can't see how that could happen, barring possibly a huge meteorite wiping us out.
		
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i never took the bible literally, as the years have gone by certain situations have happened and the thought has just floated through my mind how what is written in the bible was the best advice,.

i don`t go to church, well rarely, i don`t read the bible much, or rarely, yet i believe because certain things have happened to me personally i just know and believe,  and i don`t expect anyone to understand unless they have been to that place


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## tristar (27 October 2020)

thefarsideofthefield said:



			I have a theory that  , despite the almost certain probability that there are other planets in the universe that sustain some form of life , we have not been able to make any form of contact with them because they have evolved along the same lines as us . Given the very likely probability that humans will cause their own extinction , it is possible that this has also happened to other ' intelligent ' life forms when they reach a similar point in their own evolution ie there is either no similar intelligent ( I use the term lightly ) life to make contact with because it has not yet evolved to that point , or that it has evolved to that point but it has then made itself extinct . We reach a certain point and then we cause our own demise . Maybe we're not supposed to rule the world for ever  . I suspect not . I actually find it very comforting to think that humans will gradually die out but the earth will go on and , yes , we may have caused chaos , but the world will recover and heal itself . Nature will recover , new life forms will evolve to replace the ones we have wiped out .' Intelligent' life may or may not re emerge , but if it does I suspect it may well follow the same pattern . Maybe it's supposed to ?
Sorry - bit deep for a wet Tuesday lunchtime .
		
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our very existance is proof of the possibility of life on other planets,  if they are better than us why would they want to come and make themselves known, i can`t see any advantage in engaging with savages.

the present pandemic is proof of our fragile hold on domination of this planet, will we be the authors of our own destruction, i have no clue, pandemic, politics, global warming need rapid response, when i meet someone nice i`m in awe of their humaness its really something special to behold, when i am with  a special horse i just know there is so much more good in life than can be explained easily, i try to tune in to the higher level of being and energy because it is there for me if only i let it be, its like leaving all the material temporary  manifestation of the world aside and feeling the liberation of life forces, its very freeing

not sure if the every dog has its day thing is there somewhere, or the fall of the roman empire, where things once dominant and grand are cyclical, it rises and falls and sometimes becomes extinct, or if we learn some great lessons some power somewhere  will kind of save us


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## Cortez (27 October 2020)

Given that human nature seems to be pretty standard over time, I suppose that the bible has some useful tips and tricks. The old testament part is quite interesting (what kind of drugs were they *on*?), but speaking as a historian, taking advice from the Bronze Age may not be the best plan for the circumstances pertaining nowadays.


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## tristar (27 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			Given that human nature seems to be pretty standard over time, I suppose that the bible has some useful tips and tricks. The old testament part is quite interesting (what kind of drugs were they *on*?), but speaking as a historian taking advice from the Bronze Age may not be the best plan for the circumstances pertaining nowadays.
		
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it may seem outdated but some messages are like chanel clothes, classic


bit like gramps`s advice on horse training, some things  will run like a vein throughout time and will only be fully understood and appreciated when the time comes when  they  are  needed 

but understanding why we are in mess may only be understood by looking back and seeing where went wrong, surely? and learning from it


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## Cortez (27 October 2020)

tristar said:



			it may seem outdated but some messages are like chanel clothes, classic


bit like gramps`s advice on horse training, some things  will run like a vein throughout time and will only be fully understood and appreciated when the time comes when  they  are  needed

but understanding why we are in mess may only be understood by looking back and seeing where went wrong, surely? and learning from it
		
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Broadly agree, but one of the most depressing things about having a broad overview of history is how very little we ever seem to learn.


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## tristar (27 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			Broadly agree, but one of the most depressing things about having a broad overview of history is how very little we ever seem to learn.
		
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perhaps the lesson is learned when it is needed, sort of out of necessity


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## Cortez (27 October 2020)

tristar said:



			perhaps the lesson is learned when it is needed, sort of out of necessity
		
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No, the point about human nature is that we *do not learn* from our mistakes.


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## ycbm (27 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			No, the point about human nature is that we *do not learn* from our mistakes.
		
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Have you seen how they propose to stabilise the melting roads in what should be  the permafrost, that's now melting due to man made climate change?  Use more petrochemicals to  run machinery to freeze them.  Honestly,  you couldn't make it up! 
.


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## tristar (27 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			No, the point about human nature is that we *do not learn* from our mistakes.
		
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 i am mainly referring to myself,  i do try to learn from mistakes, that is how i have survived and succeeded ,  not everyone is the same


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