# Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic



## tallyho! (15 October 2011)

After the recent poll by perfect11s:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=489592

Many agreed a sticky would be very useful, but the format needed to change to avoid the confusion/arguments.

At the end of the above thread, ROG kindly agreed to help run a Towing Clinic for those who find the laws & limitations as confusing as I did.

*
Here is an example of how it will work:-*

"If a member on here was to provide me with the relevant info then I can say whether the set up is legal or not on either a B or BE licence and WHY

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

- ROG

"I'll start here first...

1. B+E Licence
2. 2410kg (this is kerbweight/unladen right?)
3. 3450kg (not too sure about this - what does it mean? Max load of vehicle?)
4. 2500kg (Capacity)
5. 1905kg (HB505)
6. 905kg

Thanks ROG. "

- tallyho!

"LEGAL

1 - max vehicle GVW of 3500 (you got 3450) and max trailer MAM of 3500 (you got 1905)
2 - correct - usually listed in handbook
3 - correct - number 2 (2410) with full load of 1040 (2410+1040=3450)
4 - max weight of empty trailer plus the load on it
5 minus 6 1905-905=1000 so 1000 is the max load that can be loaded onto the trailer

5 is much lower than 4 so a fully laden trailler weighing 1905 is well within the max towing capacity of 2500

Your max combination weight would be 5355 with that set up (3450+1905=5355) but you could go up to 5950 if you got a trailer with a MAM of at least 2500 (up to 3500)

ADD - the problem in getting a trailer with a greater MAM could be that it is heavier when empty so getting a 3500 MAM trailer which weighed 1500 empty still only allows you a max payload of 1000 because of the 2500 towing capacity limit for your vehicle

If you are happy with the trailer load capacity of 1000 then great! "

-ROG

Hope that makes sense and you find it useful. Any questions about using the clinic, please PM me so we can keep the clinic running as smoothly as possible.

Useful Links:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_10013073

http://www.uktow.com/towing capacity.asp?make=Nissan#tab1

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/index.htm

TYRE LOAD RATINGS calculate KGS by multiplying the number of tyres

ROG's thread: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=475968


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## perfect11s (15 October 2011)

Yes  good work  Tallyho!  thanks for taking the trouble  to put it together.. and Rog for making the generous offer to help people , now we just need to get admin's opinion and see if they will do a sticky, anyone know the best way to go about  contacting the right person?????


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## ROG (15 October 2011)

Nicely put together tallyho! and I'll second perfect11s comments


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## tallyho! (15 October 2011)

Thanks to you both too - sent you both pm's to keep thread straightforwrd


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## becca1305 (15 October 2011)

a really great idea  glad it came into formation. I am literally just about to move up to a lorry but have previously found the rules/laws regarding towing very confusing so I am sure this will help a lot of people  kudos to the knowledgeable towing lot!


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## brown tack (15 October 2011)

Well done for your effort  and thank you!

So here we go. I've got a disco r reg auto 

B 
2065kg
2720kg
3500kg braked
1600kg
767kg


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## ROG (15 October 2011)

Mucky Shavings said:



			B 
2065kg
2720kg
3500kg braked
1600kg
767kg
		
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*ILLEGAL on a B licence*

2720+1600=4320 which is more than the 3500 allowed for B when towing a trailer of more than 750 MAM

With that towing vehicle you need to have a trailer plated at no more than 780 (2720+780=3500)


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## Maisy (15 October 2011)

I wouldn't have a clue what half of those numbers are.....

I have a discovery (III), an IW505 and the maximum I will tow is 2 x 500kg horses.  I have the pre '97 licence, (which I am pretty sure is B+E!).  I am 99.9% sure I am legal.....I have always thought that with the discovery I could pretty much pack the trailer with whatever I could and still be legal!?


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## ROG (15 October 2011)

Maisy said:



			I wouldn't have a clue what half of those numbers are.....

I have a discovery (III), an IW505 and the maximum I will tow is 2 x 500kg horses.  I have the pre '97 licence, (which I am pretty sure is B+E!).  I am 99.9% sure I am legal.....I have always thought that with the discovery I could pretty much pack the trailer with whatever I could and still be legal!?
		
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Those numbers are weights in KGs and can be easily found in the handbook or if not got one then by searching online for your exact vehicle and its specifications

If you can give me the exact year and model of your disco then I can find  those specifications for you to fill in Qs 2, 3 + 4

The 505 - http://www.horsetrailersales.co.uk/NewIforHB505.htm is plated at Maximum Gross Weight 2340 and Unladen Weight 905

So this would be your list so far - 
1 - B+E (pre 97 licence)
2 - ?
3 - ?
4 - ?
5 - 2340
6 - 905


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## Maisy (15 October 2011)

My car is a '56' plate (does that mean the year is 2006!?), and is a TDV6...

 

As you can tell, I don't know much about cars.....


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## ROG (15 October 2011)

Maisy said:



			My car is a '56' plate (does that mean the year is 2006!?), and is a TDV6....
		
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GOT IT ALL - ta http://www.getcarspecs.com/land-rover/2006-land-rover-discovery-3-tdv6-se/print
1 - B+E (pre 97 licence)
2 - 2440 = unladen/empty weight
3 - 2708 = fully loaded weight
4 - 3493 = max towing weight
5 - 2340 = max trailer weight when loaded
6 - 905 = trailer weight when empty
LEGAL on a B+E licence

Your current trailer can carry a load of 1435 kgs

You could get a bigger trailer up to 3500 if you wanted to and still be legal if you loaded it to capacity (well, except for 7kgs but no authority will bother with that)


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## brown tack (15 October 2011)

ROG said:



*ILLEGAL on a B licence*

2720+1600=4320 which is more than the 3500 allowed for B when towing a trailer of more than 750 MAM

With that towing vehicle you need to have a trailer plated at no more than 780 (2720+780=3500)
		
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Thought so, but hoped with a single trailer it would be legal. 

What I don't get though is the b or b+e license's? I thought that anyone who took the standard driving test after 1997 had a just a b license. But some say that they have b+e when passing the standard test after 1997

I thought the b+e was the trailer license?


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## ROG (15 October 2011)

Mucky Shavings said:



			Thought so, but hoped with a single trailer it would be legal. 

What I don't get though is the b or b+e license's? I thought that anyone who took the standard driving test after 1997 had a just a b license. But some say that they have b+e when passing the standard test after 1997

I thought the b+e was the trailer license?
		
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B+E is the full trailer towing licence but B licence holders can tow trailers but there area lot of rules regarding that
Those that passed their B test after 97 do not have B+E entitlement but they do have B+E provisional
B licence holders must pass the DSA B+E test to gain full B+E


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## brown tack (15 October 2011)

ROG said:



			B+E is the full trailer towing licence but B licence holders can tow trailers but there area lot of rules regarding that
Those that passed their B test after 97 do not have B+E entitlement but they do have B+E provisional
B licence holders must pass the DSA B+E test to gain full B+E
		
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Thought so. I that case I know of a few that are being very naughty. Ie driving a disco, double trailer and 2 big horses appox going out about twice a week, no l plates etc. 

Thought I was being fobbed off as it just didn't make sense.

Going to have a quite word next time I see her


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## ROG (16 October 2011)

General note: - 
A couple of members have asked me questions and given their set-ups via the PM system and although I do not mind giving private responses I would prefer to do them publically for a couple of reasons - 

1 - I am not infallible so if I do make an error then it can be picked up by others

2 - Other members can see the set-ups and the answers given which might be useful to them

Thanks


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## Mince Pie (16 October 2011)

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE - B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1535kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2750kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2000kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres = 1750kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 550kg


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## ROG (16 October 2011)

broke_but_happy said:



			1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1535kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2750kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2000kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres = 1750kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 550kg
		
Click to expand...

*ILLEGAL for a B licence*

Reasons are - 

The MAM of the trailer 1750 is more than the unladen/empty weight 1535 of the towing vehicle

Also The GVW of the towing vehicle 2750 plus the trailer MAM 1750 adds up to 4500 which is more than the allowed 3500 maximum when towing a trailer over 750 MAM

With the towing vehicle having a GVW of 2750 then the max trailer MAM cannot be more than 750 kgs (2750=750=3500)

The set-up would be legal on a B+E licence


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## TallulahBright (17 October 2011)

I've got an Ifor Williams 510 classic trailer and have been looking at a short wheel base Pajero- spec says it'll tow 2500kg but wanted to know if any of you fine people have experience/ advice re towing with short wheel base. My horse 16.1hh and weighs around 550kg. What do you think?? Thanks


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## tallyho! (18 October 2011)

TallulahBright said:



			I've got an Ifor Williams 510 classic trailer and have been looking at a short wheel base Pajero- spec says it'll tow 2500kg but wanted to know if any of you fine people have experience/ advice re towing with short wheel base. My horse 16.1hh and weighs around 550kg. What do you think?? Thanks
		
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Happy to help tallulahbright, could you tell us some more information:

1 - What licence you hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - Gross Vehicle Weight of the towing vehicle
4 - Gross Towing Weight and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer 

I'm sure it's not a problem towing with SWB but we should check according to the laws.


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## ROG (18 October 2011)

TallulahBright said:



			I've got an Ifor Williams 510 classic trailer and have been looking at a short wheel base Pajero- spec says it'll tow 2500kg but wanted to know if any of you fine people have experience/ advice re towing with short wheel base. My horse 16.1hh and weighs around 550kg. What do you think?? Thanks
		
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1 - What licence you hold = B+E (I hope)
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle = 1750 appx
3 - Gross Vehicle Weight of the towing vehicle = 2400 appx
4 - towing capacity of the towing vehicle = 2500
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer = 2700
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer = 1000 

Using a B+E licence the above set-up is legal providing the trailer is never loaded with more than 1500 because the towing capacity is 2500 (1500+1000=2500) but I think the issue here is whether using a SWB will be 'balanced' enough for safe towing

I would say yes because if it was not then a trailer size limit would have been mentioned by the manufacturer of the towing vehicle

I often see towing vehicles that are far shorter than the trailer they are towing and have never seen them have any problems but science dictates that a larger wheel based towing vehicle is going to be more stable (pun!) than a smaller one


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## Rudey (18 October 2011)

Excellent thread! I wondered if you can help me with my backing query please? When I back my trailer, I look round with my head out of the window, occasionally checking my left mirror. I cannot seem to back, purely sitting forward using both mirrors. In a test, are you able to back using the method I first mentioned, or only the latter?

I'm in the process of booking lessons. Just thought I could get plenty of practice in beforehand if I knew! Thanks xx


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## ROG (18 October 2011)

Rudey said:



			Excellent thread! I wondered if you can help me with my backing query please? When I back my trailer, I look round with my head out of the window, occasionally checking my left mirror. I cannot seem to back, purely sitting forward using both mirrors. In a test, are you able to back using the method I first mentioned, or only the latter?

I'm in the process of booking lessons. Just thought I could get plenty of practice in beforehand if I knew! Thanks xx
		
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Reversing on a B+E test - you are allowed to do it as you want BUT the examiner wants to see good all round checks for the duration of the reverse

You can 'palm the wheel' as long as you have full control

You B+E instructor will explain and help you through everything including the reverse and the un/couple as well as what is expected on the road drive


If you can get plenty of reversing practice with a box type trailer before training then well done - just remember to have insurance for a B+E learner, L plates and a supervising driver who has held a B+E licence for more than 3 years


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## Rudey (18 October 2011)

Ah thank you very much ROG.  I've been fortunate enough to have a fair amount of towing and reversing experience already, so the lessons will literally be to tidy me up and prepare me for test standard.  I am absolutely  bricking it to be blunt as ever!  I am worried my nerves will get the better of me.... eeeeep!  I could do with a good


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## Wigglypigs (19 October 2011)

There is a new girl at our yard who is adament that she can tow a large cob in a IW 510 with a freelander on a 'B' licence! She does, on occasion, take another horse too!
I'm certain that her vechicle is unsuitable for towing that trailer/horse combination regardless of the fact that she only has a 'B' licence. Help!


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## perfect11s (19 October 2011)

Wigglypigs said:



			There is a new girl at our yard who is adament that she can tow a large cob in a IW 510 with a freelander on a 'B' licence! She does, on occasion, take another horse too!
I'm certain that her vechicle is unsuitable for towing that trailer/horse combination regardless of the fact that she only has a 'B' licence. Help!
		
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 99.9% sure this is illegal , due to the b licence  if she is stopped they could  impound the vehicle/trailer !!!! and the other thing is her insurance will be invalid   so same again plus woundent get payed out if she has an accident,  so it is stupid thing to do and could end in loss of licence and a big fine...


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## ROG (19 October 2011)

Wigglypigs said:



			There is a new girl at our yard who is adament that she can tow a large cob in a IW 510 with a freelander on a 'B' licence! She does, on occasion, take another horse too!
I'm certain that her vechicle is unsuitable for towing that trailer/horse combination regardless of the fact that she only has a 'B' licence. Help!
		
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There are many freelanders so I'll pick one at random

1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle = 1457
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle = 2040
4 - towing capacity of the towing vehicle = 1800
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer = 2700
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer = 1000

*ILLEGAL on a B licence*

Reasons - 
5 must not be more than 2
3 plus 5 is more than 3500

==========================
Using a B+E licence only 800 can be loaded onto the trailer so that it is not more than the 1800 towing capacity so 2 horses would both have to be small ones

CAVEAT - not certain I have the correct freelander weights as there are loads of models!


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## brown tack (19 October 2011)

Rog would it legal on a b licsence to tow with a freelander 4 door descile and a single Ifor trailer

Can't find the weights of the freelander sorry

Ta


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## ROG (19 October 2011)

Mucky Shavings said:



			Rog would it legal on a b licsence to tow with a freelander 4 door descile and a single Ifor trailer

Can't find the weights of the freelander sorry

Ta 

Click to expand...

http://www.helpfindmea.co.uk/cars/specs/land-rover-freelander-specifications-259/
which is it?

What is the product code for the ifor trailer - ie HB505 etc ??


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## Wigglypigs (19 October 2011)

I have now spent over 2 hours trying to get my head round it all in order to be able to discuss the legalities. I'm also tempted to sit my B+E now so that I can tow myself rather than rely on my OH


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## ROG (19 October 2011)

Wigglypigs said:



			I have now spent over 2 hours trying to get my head round it all in order to be able to discuss the legalities. I'm also tempted to sit my B+E now so that I can tow myself rather than rely on my OH
		
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I can help you

I now know that you do not have B+E or C1 so that is the starting point.

You do have B+E and C1 and/or C provisional

Your OH, if they have full B+E for at least 3 years (pre 97 is ok) can sit next to you when towing with L plates on

You MIGHT be able to tow with your current set up but I need some info
What towing vehicle do you have? - year make & model please
What trailer do you have? - the KG numbers on the plate will help but if not then the make and model of the trailer please


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## claire_p2001 (19 October 2011)

Very interesting post.  I have my HGV license C&C1 can i tow with this license or do i need to take another test? Thanks


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## Wigglypigs (19 October 2011)

ROG I thought they stopped you being allowed to 'supervise' a learner with L-plates if you only had a pre 97 licence recently? I thought it was changed to only people who had sat their test or is this just in relation to 7.5 ton lorrries?
Will check weights and get back to you.


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## ROG (19 October 2011)

claire_p2001 said:



			Very interesting post.  I have my HGV license C&C1 can i tow with this license or do i need to take another test? Thanks
		
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A '+E' on the end of a category is require to tow anything over 750 kgs EXCEPT in the case of 'B' where certain strict allowances are made 

If you have a pre 97 licence then you have B+E and C1+E with a restriction code only allowing a maximum combined MAM of 8.25 tonnes but we won't go into that unless you wish to .....


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## ROG (19 October 2011)

Wigglypigs said:



			ROG I thought they stopped you being allowed to 'supervise' a learner with L-plates if you only had a pre 97 licence recently? I thought it was changed to only people who had sat their test or is this just in relation to 7.5 ton lorrries?
Will check weights and get back to you.
		
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Pre 97 supervising restrictions were placed on C1. C1E D1 D1E but not on B+E

Quite a few training sites got that mixed up and some are still giving false info on it

I would need if you can find them -
1 - What licence you hold - I know that is B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer


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## sallybush (19 October 2011)

Seems there is a lot of confusion over how to find the relevant figures, so here's a couple of pics:

Vehicle VIN plate:
Can be either a metal plate, or a sticker, usually found on the slam panel (between the headlights) under the bonnet, or on the door frame on either the passenger or drivers door, sometimes you will even find it under a plastic flap in the front footwell carpet.  Don't confuse with the sticker giving you the various tyre pressures for all the different sized tyres that may have been fitted to your vehicle.  It will usually be smaller than the one pictured, with just the chassis number, and four lines of figures.  They are not normally labelled so the order is important.







IMG_0973 by Ollie and Sally, on Flickr

Trailer chassis plate:
Lots simpler, in this case the MAM (aka Gross weight) is 3000kg.  Do not confuse with the plate that may riveted directly to the hitch/handbrake mechanism as this is often higher than the trailer, and indicates the design limit of the hitch and not the trailer.







IMG_0991 by Ollie and Sally, on Flickr

If you don't have a chassis plate and want to use the tyre load rating, look for a number, usually in the range of 80-100, this is the rating.  It will be in the format similar to 165/75 R14 84T, 84 being the load rating.  You really should look for the plate though, as the tyres can often carry more than the trailer and it suspension is designed for.

Whilst you are looking at the tyres, you may as well look for the date code as its important and normally overlooked!  Its recommended trailer tyres are changed at five years old as they degrade and perish before they wear out.  I left mine until they were six years old, thinking that as the trailer had spent 4 of its 6 years in under cover storage, they would be good.  They were not, three of the four were dangerously degraded and had bulged, but with no obvious signs of perishing.  The tyre below is meant to be perfectly flat, and the previous weekend I had driven three hours on the motorway with the tyres like this:







IMAG0297 by Ollie and Sally, on Flickr

The date code is sometimes hard to find, but should be in the format "DOT 3207".  3207 being the 32nd week of 2007.  If you have a three digit number, DOT274, your tyres are pre 2000, making them a minimum of 11 years old.  Scary!

Hope this helps 

If ROG or Tallyho want to copy this into one of their early postings on p.1 then feel free.


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## brown tack (19 October 2011)

License b
Empty weight of car 
Gvw 2050
Towing max 2000 
Trailer mam 1600
Trailer weight 767

Can't find the freelander empty weight http://www.helpfindmea.co.uk/cars/s...i-station-wagon-5dr-specifications-14367.aspx

Ta


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## ROG (19 October 2011)

Mucky Shavings said:



			License b
Empty weight of car = 1525 minimum so could be a little more
Gvw = 2050
Towing max = 2000 
Trailer mam = 1600
Trailer weight = 767
		
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This needs a B+E licence because 2050+1600=3650 which is more than the 3500 legal max for B and the MAM of the trailer (1600) is more than the empty weight of the car (1525+ poss a little bit)

If you get the trailer downplated to 1450 which would mean it could carry only 683 then that would be legal for a B licence

What is the weight of your horse and the other stuff that you load into the trailer?


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## ROG (19 October 2011)

Great post sallybush with excellent pics

Got a pic with the tyre load ratings on it?


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## brown tack (19 October 2011)

ROG said:



			This needs a B+E licence because 2050+1600=3650 which is more than the 3500 legal max for B and the MAM of the trailer (1600) is more than the empty weight of the car (1525+ poss a little bit)

If you get the trailer downplated to 1450 which would mean it could carry only 683 then that would be legal for a B licence

What is the weight of your horse and the other stuff that you load into the trailer?
		
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Thank you so much for your help rog, really opened my eyes to a few things.

Was thinking about swapping my disco in for a freelander IF it was 100% safe and legal to tow a single without doing the trailer test. But it's not so going to stick with my disco and save like mad to take the test, then I could get a double trailer too. 

Weight of horse is 550kg
No tack at present as baby, but wanted to show him before breaking, so debating to get him broken first or to take test first.


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## sallybush (19 October 2011)

No problem ROG, here's a pic (borrowed from someone else)  I realised I wasn't clear in my earlier post, the date code won't necessarily have 'DOT' in front of it, it could have any combination of letters, which I think is a combination of manufacturer and batch codes.  Whilst looking for a pic I found a couple that didn't have any letters.  The tyre in the pic below is 3103, i.e. 31st week of 2003, making it approximately 8 years old.  The five year recommendation is just for trailers/caravans as far as I know, car tyres tend to last longer as they are in constant use.







071114-tyreP1150398 by slurp, on Flickr


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## birchave0 (20 October 2011)

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE  - B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1964kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2600kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 5900kg/3300kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 2000kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 800kg


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## ROG (20 October 2011)

birchave0 said:



			1 - What licence they hold - B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1964kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2600kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 5900kg/3300kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 2000kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 800kg
		
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*ILLEGAL on a B licence*

Reasons - 
GVW 2600 + MAM 2000 = 4600 which is more than the 3500 allowed
Being nit-picky here .... the 2000 MAM is 36 more than the 1964 unladen weight

Perfectly legal on a B+E licence
If I had that towing vehicle with a B+E then I would get a 3500 MAM trailer so I could load it up to 3300 actual weight


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## birchave0 (20 October 2011)

ROG said:



*ILLEGAL on a B licence*

Reasons - 
GVW 2600 + MAM 2000 = 4600 which is more than the 3500 allowed
Being nit-picky here .... the 2000 MAM is 36 more than the 1964 unladen weight

Perfectly legal on a B+E licence
If I had that towing vehicle with a B+E then I would get a 3500 MAM trailer so I could load it up to 3300 actual weight
		
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the above details are actually for an Isuzu Trooper SWB with a Sinclair trailer.
I was under the impression that as long as the combination was under 3500kg, with the tow car being heavier than the trailer it's towing you were not breaking any laws?  Even with one horse in (500kg) the trailer would be 1300kg so lighter than the 1964kg of the unladen Trooper?
Therefore the weight at a weighbridge would be around 3365kg taking into account driver, fuel, tack?
What if the trailer has no data plate on it?

sorry for all the questions


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## ROG (20 October 2011)

birchave0 said:



			the above details are actually for an Isuzu Trooper SWB with a Sinclair trailer.
I was under the impression that as long as the combination was under 3500kg, with the tow car being heavier than the trailer it's towing you were not breaking any laws?  Even with one horse in (500kg) the trailer would be 1300kg so lighter than the 1964kg of the unladen Trooper?
Therefore the weight at a weighbridge would be around 3365kg taking into account driver, fuel, tack?
What if the trailer has no data plate on it?

sorry for all the questions 

Click to expand...

No probs with all the Qs - happy to help

A trailer with no plate will go on the the load rating listed on the tyres
http://www.rotationuk.com/gbu0-display/tyre_load_ratings.html
A trailer with 4 tyres rated at 82 will work out to 4x475=1900 MAM

3365 may be the actual weight when on a weighbridge but that is not what is required in law
The law requires the GVW and the MAM to be added together to give the answer in regards to the 3500 limit when towing on a B licence

The law says that the plated MAM weight must not be more than the towing vehicle unlden weight when towing on a B licence so although the actual weight might be less, that is not the criteria which needs to be followed

Actual weights and MAM weights are totally different - perhaps thinking that MAM weights are what the total weight could possibly be if loaded to legal capacity might help


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## brown tack (20 October 2011)

Rig could you find us all some example combinations that do work on just a b licesnce, just so all have something to compare with?


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## birchave0 (20 October 2011)

ROG said:



			No probs with all the Qs - happy to help

A trailer with no plate will go on the the load rating listed on the tyres
http://www.rotationuk.com/gbu0-display/tyre_load_ratings.html
A trailer with 4 tyres rated at 82 will work out to 4x475=1900 MAM

3365 may be the actual weight when on a weighbridge but that is not what is required in law
The law requires the GVW and the MAM to be added together to give the answer in regards to the 3500 limit when towing on a B licence

The law says that the plated MAM weight must not be more than the towing vehicle unlden weight when towing on a B licence so although the actual weight might be less, that is not the criteria which needs to be followed

Actual weights and MAM weights are totally different - perhaps thinking that MAM weights are what the total weight could possibly be if loaded to legal capacity might help
		
Click to expand...

so where does the below come into it? 

Category
Description
Minimum age

B
Motor vehicles with a MAM of up to 3,500 kg, no more than eight passenger seats, with or without a trailer - weighing no more than 750 kg
17*

B
As category B but with a trailer weighing more than 750 kg. The total weight of the vehicle and the trailer together cant weigh more than 3,500 kg. The weight of the trailer, when fully loaded, cant weigh more than the unladen weight of the vehicle
17*

The above is straight off the DVLA Website.Not a mention of manufacturers plates .Its purely done on the physical weights.

I have cut and pasted from another thread, again I'm sorry for all the questions but I still can't understand why they state  something on a website which is not true...


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## Wigglypigs (20 October 2011)

Finally got the weights for my own set up ( i only have B licence but other half has sat his trailer test so we will use him)
1 - BE
2 - 1875kg (listed as the kerb weight is this correct?)
3 - 2950kg 
4 - 3000kg towing capacity
5 - 2300kg is listed as the gross weight of the trailer (bateson deauville)
6 - 860kg

Im pretty certain this is well within the limits HOWEVER the towing vechicle is my OH's company 'car' (Isuzu Denver Rodeo twin cab). Does he need to be using a tachogragh when towing even though its personal use?


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## ROG (20 October 2011)

Mucky Shavings said:



			Rig could you find us all some example combinations that do work on just a b licesnce, just so all have something to compare with?
		
Click to expand...

I know you meant ROG - LOL

I can make up an example of a legal B licence towing set up if that helps

Towing vehicle - 
unladen = 1525
GVW = 1900
Towing capacity = 1600
Trailer - 
MAM = 1500
unladen = 500

1500 is under 1525 so that complies with the rule that says the MAM of the trailer must no more than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle

GVW 1900 + MAM 1500 = 3400 so that is under the 3500 maximum

loading the trailer with a capable max of 1000 (1500-500=1000) gives the trailer an actual weight of 1500 which is within the towing capacity of 1600
Towing capacity being the actual weight which the vehicle can tow behind it

Does that help?


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## ROG (20 October 2011)

birchave0 said:



			so where does the below come into it? 

Category
Description
Minimum age

B
Motor vehicles with a MAM of up to 3,500 kg, no more than eight passenger seats, with or without a trailer - weighing no more than 750 kg
17*
3500 MAM or commonly called GVW is the maximum that a category B vehice can weigh

B
As category B but with a trailer weighing more than 750 kg. The total weight of the vehicle and the trailer together cant weigh more than 3,500 kg. The weight of the trailer, when fully loaded, cant weigh more than the unladen weight of the vehicle
17*
They do not make clear that the 3500 is the GVW/MAM of the towing vehicle added to the MAM of the trailer but they do if you go to the other links on that site 

The above is straight off the DVLA Website.Not a mention of manufacturers plates .Its purely done on the physical weights.

I have cut and pasted from another thread, again I'm sorry for all the questions but I still can't understand why they state  something on a website which is not true... 

Click to expand...

This is the Gov site you want - 
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_10013073
Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats

Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.
For example:


a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle

Whereas


the same vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes when coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.5 tonnes would fall within category B+E. This is because although the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is within the 3.5 tonnes MAM limit, the MAM of the trailer is more than the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
Vehicle manufacturers normally recommend a maximum weight of trailer appropriate to their vehicle. Details can usually be found in the vehicle's handbook or obtained from car dealerships. The size of the trailer recommended for an average family car with an unladen weight of around 1 tonne would be well within the new category B threshold.

Note that they say that the combination of the MAMs must not exceed 3.5 tonnes (3500 kgs) and those MAMs or GVWs are that of the towing vehicle added to that of the trailer 

The towing capacity is the actual weight which the vehicle maker says is the maximum that its vehicle can tow and makes no reference to any trailer MAM because the maker/manufacturer does not care what the MAM of a trailer is - as far as they are concerned the trailer might be 'capable' of being loaded to its full weight listed on the MAM plate, say 3500, but they are telling the vehicle owner that the vehicle cannoot tow more than an actual weight of say 2000

hope that helps


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## ROG (20 October 2011)

Wigglypigs said:



			Finally got the weights for my own set up ( i only have B licence but other half has sat his trailer test so we will use him)
1 - BE
2 - 1875kg (listed as the kerb weight is this correct?)
3 - 2950kg 
4 - 3000kg towing capacity
5 - 2300kg is listed as the gross weight of the trailer (bateson deauville)
6 - 860kg

Im pretty certain this is well within the limits HOWEVER the towing vechicle is my OH's company 'car' (Isuzu Denver Rodeo twin cab). Does he need to be using a tachogragh when towing even though its personal use?
		
Click to expand...

No tachgraph when used for private towing if the total MAM/GVW of the combination is under 7.5 tonnes (7500 kgs) - yours is 5250 - that exemption is in the EU regulations

That set up deffo needs a B+E licence because 2300 is more than 1875 and 2950+2300=5250 which is more than 3500
You could get a trailer plated at 3500 MAM for that set up as long as it was never loaded to more than 3000 actual weight for the towing capacity


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## Flummoxed (20 October 2011)

This is all like a foreign language to me - or perhaps I'm just a bit dim. 

Rog, if I give you the following, perhaps you could pass comment for me please: -

1) B & E
2) 2275
3) 3030
4) 3500
5)1905
6)905

Thanks very much.


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## Wigglypigs (20 October 2011)

ROG you are a star. I'm going to get my trailer test done as soon as we get conformation from OH's work that I can drive and tow using his car.
I have another set up question however I am struggling to find the car details online
Driver would be driving with L-Plates with suitable supervising person.
Her car is a 06reg diesel 5door freelander TD4. 
Trailer is a new IW HB506 so has a MAM of 2600 and an unladen weight of 920kg.
Would only ever be towing one horse weighing about 650kg. 

Her issue is more about the capacity of her freelander to be legal to tow that trailer and horse. She is preparing to sit her trailer test but needs to practice first.


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## ROG (20 October 2011)

Flummoxed said:



			This is all like a foreign language to me 
That is why this thread was set up

1) B & E
2) 2275
3) 3030
4) 3500
5)1905
6)905
		
Click to expand...

*Legal for B+E*

With a towing capacity of 3500 you could hitch up any trailer up to 3500 MAM (legal limit for towing with any B class vehicle), load it to its max and still be perfectly legal
The only safety advice I would give if you did that would be to make sure that the towing vehicle is capable of controlling a trailer which is physically heavier than the towing vehicle


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## ROG (20 October 2011)

Wigglypigs said:



			I have another set up question however I am struggling to find the car details online
Driver would be driving with L-Plates with suitable supervising person.
Her car is a 06reg diesel 5door freelander TD4. 
Trailer is a new IW HB506 so has a MAM of 2600 and an unladen weight of 920kg.
Would only ever be towing one horse weighing about 650kg. 

Her issue is more about the capacity of her freelander to be legal to tow that trailer and horse. She is preparing to sit her trailer test but needs to practice first.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.getcarspecs.com/land-rover/2007-land-rover-freelander-20-td4-automatic
If I have found the right model then - Towing weight = 1800
920+650=1570 so well within the towing limit for the vehicle
The max the trailer could be loaded with is 880 (880+920=1800)

CAVEAT - assuming I have found the correct model


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## Wigglypigs (20 October 2011)

Hmm her car is a manual rather than an automatic,I'll get her to check the cars towing capacity tonight. 
Thanks Rog!
X


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## ROG (20 October 2011)

Wigglypigs said:



			Hmm her car is a manual rather than an automatic,I'll get her to check the cars towing capacity tonight. 
Thanks Rog!
X
		
Click to expand...

I think I found it on this site - click performance and weights - its the one on the right I think ?
http://www.landrover.com/gb/en/lr/freelander-2/explore/s/
Max towing weight 2000


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## sallybush (20 October 2011)

I don't think anyone will find a combination of horsebox and 4x4 that is legal under a post '97 'B' license.
It is possible with something lighter than a 4x4, such as a large saloon or estate like the Mondeo, but any front wheel drive car will normally get stuck on wet grass with a horsebox, you can even find yourself stuck on wet tarmac when faced with a hill start.


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## ROG (20 October 2011)

sallybush said:



			I don't think anyone will find a combination of horsebox and 4x4 that is legal under a post '97 'B' license.
It is possible with something lighter than a 4x4, such as a large saloon or estate like the Mondeo, but any front wheel drive car will normally get stuck on wet grass with a horsebox, you can even find yourself stuck on wet tarmac when faced with a hill start.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.kia.co.uk/new-cars/range...ge/specification/technical-specification.aspx
2.0 Petrol AWD
unladen 1655
GVW 2030
Towing capacity 1600

Can a trailer be found for that which could be plated (or downplated) to 1470 and weighs no more than about 700 so it could carry a large horse plus water etc??


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## Flummoxed (21 October 2011)

Thank you Rog. I thought it was Ok but it is gratifying to have it confirmed.


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## ROG (21 October 2011)

Many members only have a B licence so is this set-up a good idea using an AWD car and a trailer so they can tow within the remit of their licence?

CAR
2.0 Petrol AWD
unladen 1655
GVW 2030
Towing capacity 1600

TRAILER
MAM = 1600 but downplate to 1470
Unladen = 770
700 loading capacity available (1470-770=700)

This set-up ticks all the legal boxes but what about practically?


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## sallybush (21 October 2011)

Practically I would say, just do the towing test.

There are many safety aspects to hitching up and towing safely, for this alone it is worth doing the test.  Then add in the professional tuition for reversing, and brushing up on your general driving skills before taking a valuable horse in tow, and its a no-brainer.  I'm sure everyone on here has watched someone (or suffered themselves) failing to perform even a basic reversing manoeuvre.  I know people who will only go to familiar places as they are unable to reverse their trailer confidently   Lacking in confidence or worrying about what will happen if you need to reverse just makes for a stressful journey.

The majority of caravan owners choose a combination where the caravan doesn't weigh more than 85% of the unladen weight of the car.  Its a recommended limit, not a law, but its widely accepted. A usable combination of car and horsebox on a B license will be very close to 100%.

Finally, if you have to change your 4x4 for something that is smaller and lighter, you will be able to tow under a B license, but the new vehicle will generally be towing much closer to its designed limit, and therefore more difficult.  Once you've changed your car, restricted yourself to a small choice of lightweight trailers, downrated the trailer, possibly fit a towbar to your new car, and not be able to take a friend and their horse at some point in future to share fuel costs, you'll probably find it would have been cheaper to take the towing test in the first place!


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## ROG (21 October 2011)

Good post sallybush 

PS - I like the campervan?? and trailer set up in your signature pic


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## sallybush (21 October 2011)

Thanks, yes its a self built camper.  One of the only vans that would tow a large trailer.


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## ROG (21 October 2011)

sallybush said:



			Thanks, yes its a self built camper.  One of the only vans that would tow a large trailer.
		
Click to expand...

Is it this one?
http://www.crusadervans.co.uk/iveco-daily-35c15-e4--3950-hr-model.htm
GVW = 3500 GTW = 7000 so can tow a fully loaded 3500 trailer


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## flying solo (22 October 2011)

Hi Rog, my subaru is a gtb 4x4 legacy estate but is a japanese import so have no idea on unladen weights etc how would I go about finding everything out?


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## sallybush (22 October 2011)

Rog, same van but mine is shorter and has the older face.  Funnily enough they have got the specs mixed up, only the 3.0L van can tow 3500kg, the 2.3L on that link can tow 2800 or 3000kg depending on whether its a single or dual rear wheel van.

Solo, look back a few pages for my photo of the vin plate.  The only figure you won't find is the unladen weight, the only real way to find this is to put your car on a weighbridge.  Some of the Vosa ones are self service and free.


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## ROG (22 October 2011)

flying solo said:



			Hi Rog, my subaru is a gtb 4x4 legacy estate but is a japanese import so have no idea on unladen weights etc how would I go about finding everything out?
		
Click to expand...

Found this list - all 2007 models with estates on the right of that list
http://www.getcarspecs.com/subaru/page-7 
Need more info such as year of manufacture
If you have a handbook for your model and its written in English then the info will be in that


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## flying solo (22 October 2011)

I will look at the plate but its a v reg (1999?) automatic if that helps. I had a look on line but couldn't see anything (technology hates me!) Thanks again for taking the time to help me x


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## sallybush (22 October 2011)

It looks as though your unladen weight is between 1400 and 1550kgs, towing limit approx 1500kg.

To be sure, read this post
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=10086385&postcount=35
so you can find the plate that gives the relevant figures.


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## nicknick (22 October 2011)

Just found this towing clinic, went away to find out all the relevant info but am bamfoozled now,

1 B + E 
2 1825
3 2505
4 3880
5 Ifor HB505R  (2340?? on the plate of the trailer don't know if this is the right numbers required)
6  No idea at all  

hopefully this is enough info, it's a pugeot 807 exec 2.2HDI


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## flying solo (22 October 2011)

So if I can legally only two 1500kg with my car will I have to do a trailer test? I have a sinclair which is 700kg unladen and 2000kg max. I would have to have the trailer replated wouldn't i? Now all I need to do is weigh the ponies!


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## ROG (22 October 2011)

nicknick said:



			Just found this towing clinic, went away to find out all the relevant info but am bamfoozled now,

1 B + E 
2 1825
3 2505
4 3880
5 Ifor HB505R  (2340?? on the plate of the trailer don't know if this is the right numbers required)
6  No idea at all  

hopefully this is enough info, it's a pugeot 807 exec 2.2HDI
		
Click to expand...

I found specs for the HB505 but not the HB505R so I'll use them
1 B + E 
2 = 1825 kerb/unladen
3 = 2505 GVW
4 = 1850 towing capacity approx from what I could find
5 = 2340 MAM
6 = 905 Unladen

ASSUMING I have the weights correct ......
Legal for B+E
Trailer must not be loaded with more than 900 because of the 1850 towing limit (900+950=1850)


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## ROG (22 October 2011)

flying solo said:



			So if I can legally only two 1500kg with my car will I have to do a trailer test? I have a sinclair which is 700kg unladen and 2000kg max. I would have to have the trailer replated wouldn't i? Now all I need to do is weigh the ponies!
		
Click to expand...

Which of these can you definitely give an answer to - 
I must admit I have searched the internet and cannot find specs for your 1999 GTB 4X4 legacy subaru estate/station wagon  

1 - What licence you hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer


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## nicknick (22 October 2011)

Number 4 is what came out of our car handbook in my original messgae, but couldn't find it on the 'net to confirm what the book was saying, but what you have is maybe correct, will maybe check at the local peug dealers to confirm, as if the info you have found I will have been towing illegally!! with my 2 in it, having been told by instructor when doing test that this model would tow a 511 with my 2 in fine! aaargh it's such a mine field this towing

is no 4 the GTW (gross train weight) or something else, my OH is now confusing matters somewhat?
the 1850 in the hand book is the braked trailer weight is that what you were meaning?

thank you very much for doing that for me. x


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## ROG (22 October 2011)

nicknick said:



			the 1850 in the hand book is the braked trailer weight is that what you were meaning?
		
Click to expand...

 That's the one 

I found specs for the HB505 but not the HB505R so I'll use them
1 B
2 = 1825 kerb/unladen
3 = 2505 GVW
4 = 1850 towing capacity 
5 = 2340 MAM
6 = 905 Unladen

ASSUMING I have the weights correct ......
*ILLEGAL on a B licence*
Reasons - 
2505+2340=4845 which is well over the 3500 maximum
2340 is more than 1825


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## nicknick (22 October 2011)

Ahhhh think i maybe understand a bit better now! lol.
 Thank you again. x


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## nicknick (22 October 2011)

Ok now my other car, sorry not too much info on it as it's in the garage being fixed not much on the V5 sheet
B + E licence
Rangerover 2.5 DSE 1997
same as previous trailer HB505R

Or will I wait till I have it back and check the plate on the car?


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## ROG (22 October 2011)

nicknick said:



			Ok now my other car, sorry not too much info on it as it's in the garage being fixed not much on the V5 sheet
B + E licence
Rangerover 2.5 DSE 1997
same as previous trailer HB505R

Or will I wait till I have it back and check the plate on the car?
		
Click to expand...

http://www.kgbanswers.co.uk/what-is-the-towing-capacity-of-1997-range-rover-25-dse/15373975

1 B+E
2 = ??? kerb/unladen
3 = ??? GVW
4 = 3500 towing capacity 
5 = 2340 MAM
6 = 905 Unladen
Legal for B+E
You could load the trailer to full 2340 capacity and it would still be legal


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## nicknick (22 October 2011)

thank you so much will check the plate when I get it back, maybe the old chug wagon the better to tow with!


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## Overgrown Pony (23 October 2011)

Hi there

Thanks so much for this.  This is fantastic 

1. License = B
2. Unladen car = kerb weight = 1570kg or 1503kg (getting conflicting advise online and car isn't arriving for another week so can't check it)
3. GVW = Gross Vehicle Weight = 2145kg
4. Tow capacity = 1600kg
5. Trailer MAM = 1400kg
6. Trailer unladen weight = 655kg

This is for a Cheval Liberte 1003XL (single trailer) being towed by a brand new Vauxhall Insignia 2ltr Turbo Diesel 160bhp.  Will be looking to travel a 16-16.2hh TB type so around 500-650kg.

Thank you


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## ROG (23 October 2011)

1kimmy said:



			1. License = B
2. Unladen car = kerb weight = 1570kg or 1503kg (getting conflicting advise online and car isn't arriving for another week so can't check it)
3. GVW = Gross Vehicle Weight = 2145kg
4. Tow capacity = 1600kg
5. Trailer MAM = 1400kg
6. Trailer unladen weight = 655kg
		
Click to expand...

*ILLEGAL on a B licence - JUST*
3+5=3545 which is 45 kgs over the 3500 max
You could downplate the trailer to 1355 which means you could load 700 kgs into it and be 'pefectly' legal


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## perfect11s (23 October 2011)

ROG said:



*ILLEGAL on a B licence - JUST*
3+5=3545 which is 45 kgs over the 3500 max
You could downplate the trailer to 1355 which means you could load 700 kgs into it and be 'pefectly' legal
		
Click to expand...

 Just a quickie  Say you have a B  licence  could the police  prosicute you just for having a trailer with the wrong design weights on the plate  or would they have to weigh your car and trailer to prove you were outside of the conditions of your B licence ???? is there any cases of prosicutions ,  just been chatting with a guy whos son wants to tow a trailer... Thanks ...


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## ROG (23 October 2011)

perfect11s said:



			Just a quickie  Say you have a B  licence  could the police  prosicute you just for having a trailer with the wrong design weights on the plate  or would they have to weigh your car and trailer to prove you were outside of the conditions of your B licence ???? is there any cases of prosicutions ,
		
Click to expand...

I do not know of any prosecutions but it is easy to add up the GVW and the MAM and se if they make more than 3500
not so easy to determine if the trailer MAM is more than the unladen weight of the vehicle 

I would make the rules for towing with a B licence simpler - 
vehicle GVW + trailer MAM to add up to no more than 3500
Trailer MAM must not be more than vehicle GVW
How easy would that be?


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## Overgrown Pony (23 October 2011)

ROG said:



*ILLEGAL on a B licence - JUST*
3+5=3545 which is 45 kgs over the 3500 max
You could downplate the trailer to 1355 which means you could load 700 kgs into it and be 'pefectly' legal
		
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for that ROG   Much appreciated.  

So everything about the set-up is perfectly safe and legal apart from the GVW + trailer MAM being slightly over (which I can resolve with downplating)

You've put my mind at ease.  You see so much conflicting advise online about towing.


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## perfect11s (23 October 2011)

ROG said:



			I do not know of any prosecutions but it is easy to add up the GVW and the MAM and se if they make more than 3500
not so easy to determine if the trailer MAM is more than the unladen weight of the vehicle 

I would make the rules for towing with a B licence simpler - 
vehicle GVW + trailer MAM to add up to no more than 3500
Trailer MAM must not be more than vehicle GVW
How easy would that be?
		
Click to expand...

  Yes but my point is  could they make a prosicution stick unless they had some evidence?? IE  would the court except  just that they were  towing something with a design weight greater than the licence allows or would  they need to have  a weigh bridge ticket that says they were physicly overweight ??? say fella tows dads car trailer empty weighing 700kg   that could carry 2000kg  with a 1500 kg tow car total weight 2200kg
police stop him  see he only  has a B licence what would they do ??? atempt a prosicution based on the design weights of the trailer  ,weigh him , or send him away???
what im getting at is light trailers under 3500 arnt legaly plated  like a hgv trailer  they just have a design weight stamped on by the maker


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## ROG (24 October 2011)

perfect11s said:



			Yes but my point is  could they make a prosicution stick unless they had some evidence?? IE  would the court except  just that they were  towing something with a design weight greater than the licence allows or would  they need to have  a weigh bridge ticket that says they were physicly overweight ??? say fella tows dads car trailer empty weighing 700kg   that could carry 2000kg  with a 1500 kg tow car total weight 2200kg
police stop him  see he only  has a B licence what would they do ??? atempt a prosicution based on the design weights of the trailer  ,weigh him , or send him away???
what im getting at is light trailers under 3500 arnt legaly plated  like a hgv trailer  they just have a design weight stamped on by the maker
		
Click to expand...

I see you point BUT the only weights available are those put on by the manufacturers so that is what is taken as being ok for the law
I suspect that a legal challenge has already been made on this issue as it has been around for many years.

B licence holder towing a 3500 MAM trailer which is unladen and weighing 1000 with a towing vehicle which is 1500 KERB and 2000 GVW who gets stopped by the law is likely, IMO, to get a warning but could legally be prosecuted

KERB is not the same as UNLADEN so that can be an issue because how do the authorities get an UNLADEN weight? - KERB weight is listed in most handbooks and on the V5 or online


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## ROG (24 October 2011)

A member on a caravan forum has kindly set this towing calculator for those with just a B licence up and allowed it to be used wherever it is useful
It can be saved to a personal PC
http://www.powtec.co.uk/towcalc.xls

I tried it and it works great


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## sallybush (24 October 2011)

Comment retracted   My mistake


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## mellissa (25 October 2011)

Hi there,

I have a 1998 licence and took the lorry 7.5 tonne test.  Am I able to tow or do I still need to do the trailer test?

Thanks


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## ROG (25 October 2011)

mellissa said:



			I have a 1998 licence and took the lorry 7.5 tonne test.  Am I able to tow or do I still need to do the trailer test?
		
Click to expand...

YES

Passing C1 does not give you a '+E' which is the entitlement at the end of a category which gives you towing entitlement

That sentence is not strictly correct because there are allowances to tow with a B licence and all categories can tow a trailer of 750 kgs MAM

If you pass the C1+E test then that will also give you B+E but only for as long as the medical remains current
If the medical, which you already have until age 45, is not kept current then you lose C1+E and B+E

Passing the B+E test gives you B+E for as long as your B licence remains valid so generally for life

If you have C as well as C1 then you could go for the C+E test

NOTE: - for those now considering taking the C1 training &  test - forget it - take the C training & test instead as they both cost roughly the same and the age is now 18 for all LGV categories
Drivers with B licences can go direct for C and then C+E

18 year old artic drivers ..... Hmmmm .......


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## diddy (26 October 2011)

Hi Rog,

What a fab idea and what a star - I cant believe youre being so nice as to work all these things out for everyone 

Im hoping to buy a trailer for my pony and the only way I can swing it with long-suffering OH is if we dont have to buy a new car so am hoping current one is up to the job! Here goes 

1 Licence is B+E (I'm really old!)
2 Empty weight of towing vehicle 1800kg (Seat Alhambra 2.0 diesel)
3 GVW of towing vehicle 2430KG
4 Towing capacity of towing vehicle 2000KG (braked)
5 Plated MAM of trailer 1700KG (Bateson Derby)
6 Unladen/empty weight of trailer 675KG

Like lots of other people who've posted, I have no idea what all the numbers mean - hope Ive got them right! I only want to tow one horse - he's a 14.2 cob so I'm guessing from looking at other people's threads he wouldn't weigh more than 550KG. So if I'm close to the limit I could downplate the trailer, yes..? Ooooh, look at me sounding like I know what I'm talking about 

Thank you very very much for your help.

Diddy x


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## kerryflower (26 October 2011)

I have a 1997 shogun (SWB) 2.5TD and tow an ifor 510 with a cat b+e license. Is this Ok?! Very confused!


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## ROG (27 October 2011)

diddy said:



			1 Licence is B+E
2 Empty weight of towing vehicle 1800kg (Seat Alhambra 2.0 diesel)
3 GVW of towing vehicle 2430KG
4 Towing capacity of towing vehicle 2000KG (braked)
5 Plated MAM of trailer 1700KG (Bateson Derby)
6 Unladen/empty weight of trailer 675KG

I only want to tow one horse - he's a 14.2 cob so I'm guessing from looking at other people's threads he wouldn't weigh more than 550KG. So if I'm close to the limit I could downplate the trailer, yes..?
		
Click to expand...

The ONLY reasons to downplate a trailer is either to conform to the 'B' licence towing rules or if the trailer is over 3500 MAM

*LEGAL for B+E*

You can load 1025 on the trailer and be ok
You could get a trailer plated at 3500 MAM which weighs 1000 unladen and load 1000 on to it and still be legal


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## ROG (27 October 2011)

kerryflower said:



			I have a 1997 shogun (SWB) 2.5TD and tow an ifor 510 with a cat b+e license. Is this Ok?! Very confused!
		
Click to expand...

I cannot find the specs online for your Shogun so perhaps you could look in the handbook for me please
Also - they may be on the V5 document

1 Licence = B+E 
2 Empty weight of towing vehicle = ????kg
3 GVW of towing vehicle = ????KG
4 Towing capacity of towing vehicle = ????KG
5 Plated MAM of trailer 2584KG 
6 Unladen/empty weight of trailer 1000KG


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## diddy (27 October 2011)

Hi Rog,

Thank you so much for your advice. Great news - you can imagine how chuffed I am that I can get mobile without having to talk husband into new vehicle  Not sure OH will be that thrilled as I plan to clear off for entire weekends at a time 

Thanks again.

Diddy x


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## sallybush (27 October 2011)

_NOTE: - for those now considering taking the C1 training & test - forget it - take the C training & test instead as they both cost roughly the same and the age is now 18 for all LGV categoriesp_

And anyone doing the C+E, try and find somewhere with a proper articulated truck as its great fun, many will use a wagon and drag which is basically a rigid lorry with a similar sized trailer on the back.  Only reason to go for a C1 is if you are rubbish at gears, a C license requires a split gearbox with low and high range (which means a minimum of 8 gears, up to 18 ish) which can get a bit confusing as you need to be able to skip gears, whereas the C1 category will just be a bigger version of a car gearbox.

I learnt in this and it was most rewarding driving I've ever done.  Sometimes I'm disappointed I like my job, otherwise I'd quit and go and drive one for a living


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## ROG (27 October 2011)

sallybush said:








Click to expand...

I know this is the towing clinic but that is a big big for your average horse transportation !!
*Deffo illegal for a B or B+E licence* - LOL


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## tallyho! (28 October 2011)

There she goes showing off again... 

LOL


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## flying solo (4 November 2011)

Hi ROG,

I have been trawling the internet for weeks trying to get information on my Japanese import legacy GTB and found this:

Model year
May 1999 - Apr 2000

Drive type
4WD

Transmission type
4AT

Engine volume, cc
1994

Frame name
GF-BH5

Mass, kg
1510

Total weight
1785

Sorry if this is still no use but I still cant find anything which relate to a UK vin plate as Japanese vin plates dont hold the same information.

Thanks again


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## ROG (4 November 2011)

flying solo said:



			Sorry if this is still no use but I still cant find anything which relate to a UK vin plate as Japanese vin plates dont hold the same information.

Thanks again
		
Click to expand...

Looks like we have hit a wall with this one


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## ROG (4 November 2011)

flying solo said:



			Japanese import legacy GTB and found this:
Total weight = 1785
		
Click to expand...




flying solo said:



			So if I can legally only two 1500kg with my car will I have to do a trailer test? I have a sinclair which is 700kg unladen and 2000kg max. I would have to have the trailer replated wouldn't i? Now all I need to do is weigh the ponies!
		
Click to expand...

Not knowing the towing capacity is a big issue as I cannot say what it can legally tow (actual weight)

For towing on a B licence from the info obtained then if the GVW is 1785 the trailer cannot be plated at more than 1715 (1785+1715=3500)
That would leave you with just over 1000 to load inside the trailer

Again, not knowing the max towing capacity, is a bit of a worry


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## perfect11s (4 November 2011)

ROG said:



			Looks like we have hit a wall with this one 

Click to expand...

I would work with the UK  spec legacy   weights   they will most likley be  simalar,
the Jappanese  home market cars are often higher spec  but the kerb weight and axles will be very close  and might have bigger brakes  if its a turbo ...


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## ROG (4 November 2011)

perfect11s said:



			I would work with the UK  spec legacy   weights   they will most likley be  simalar,
the Jappanese  home market cars are often higher spec  but the kerb weight and axles will be very close  and might have bigger brakes  if its a turbo ...
		
Click to expand...

cannot find anything near it even on this site - 
http://www.uktow.com/towing capacity.asp#tab1


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## flying solo (6 November 2011)

There is a woman down the road from me who has a 2000 uk model which looks exactly the same, I think I may approach her and ask to see her vin plate! I'm sure she rides so will hopefully understand, I dont want to do anything dangerous with the ponies. Failing that its my birthday in Feb and if I ask nicely i'm sure OH will buy me another more suitable 4x4


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## Ginn (6 November 2011)

Can you please clarify if I'm legal - I'm fairly sure I am but have received a few comments that I'm not so want to check:

1 Licence = B *but* with full BE (pre 97) liscense holder in passenger seat supervising and L plates on car and trailer
2 Empty weight of towing vehicle = 2265 kg assuming this is the same as the kerbweight???
3 GVW of towing vehicle =  2620 Kg
4 Towing capacity of towing vehicle = 2800 Kg
5 Plated MAM of trailer 2700 Kg
6 Unladen/empty weight of trailer 905 Kg

We've also worked out that we only ever travel a total weight of 900 kg, bringing the trailer+contents to ~1800kg (so well within towing capacity and just under 85% of kerbweight of towing vehicle).

Now I am 99.9% sure parents (aka supervising drivers) can *safely* and legally tow this set up as they both hold BE (pre 97) licenses. The query comes whether I can tow with my (post 97) B license on L plates with them as supervising passengers? I am 95% sure this is legal and that the grandfathers rights rule change only applies to vehicles with a GVW of more than 3500 kg (i.e. D and C categories) so I am OK? 

Plan is to rack up lots of hours practice (and for the record I've had some lessons and am fully confident and competent manoeuvering, it just happens slowly as I'm not as practiced as I'd like to be) then take my test.


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## ROG (6 November 2011)

Ginn said:



			Can you please clarify if I'm legal - I'm fairly sure I am but have received a few comments that I'm not so want to check:

1 Licence = B *but* with full BE (pre 97) liscense holder in passenger seat supervising and L plates on car and trailer
2 Empty weight of towing vehicle = 2265 kg assuming this is the same as the kerbweight???
3 GVW of towing vehicle =  2620 Kg
4 Towing capacity of towing vehicle = 2800 Kg
5 Plated MAM of trailer 2700 Kg
6 Unladen/empty weight of trailer 905 Kg

We've also worked out that we only ever travel a total weight of 900 kg, bringing the trailer+contents to ~1800kg (so well within towing capacity and just under 85% of kerbweight of towing vehicle).

Now I am 99.9% sure parents (aka supervising drivers) can *safely* and legally tow this set up as they both hold BE (pre 97) licenses. The query comes whether I can tow with my (post 97) B license on L plates with them as supervising passengers? I am 95% sure this is legal and that the grandfathers rights rule change only applies to vehicles with a GVW of more than 3500 kg (i.e. D and C categories) so I am OK?
		
Click to expand...

Spot on with your take on the supervising laws 

1 Licence = B *but* with full BE (pre 97) liscense holder in passenger seat supervising and L plates on car and trailer
2 Empty weight of towing vehicle = 2265 kg assuming this is the same as the kerbweight???
3 GVW of towing vehicle =  2620 Kg
4 Towing capacity of towing vehicle = 2800 Kg
5 Plated MAM of trailer 2700 Kg
6 Unladen/empty weight of trailer 905 Kg

*ILLEGAL for B* *BUT* *LEGAL for B+E provisional with supervising B+E licence holder*

Have you checked with insurance company that this is ok as many do not allow B+E learners without changing the policy or the excess????

1795 is the maximum you can load into the trailer (1795+905=2700) as 2700 is the max MAM for the trailer

You could get a trailer plated at 3500 MAM which weighed 1000 empty and load 1800 in it with that B+E set up (1000+1800=2800)

85% of kerbweight is not an issue here as the set up has been designed for more than that - if 85% was the safety limit then the manufacturer would not have allowed a towing capacity of more than that but they have

Towing caravans which act differently than trailers tend to stick to the 85% rule for safety


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## Ginn (6 November 2011)

Thanks Rog. I didn't think I was going crazy. Yes checked with insurers and was told provided I had the provisional +E entitlement and was supervised by a full BE holder then I was covered - no change to excess or premium (though that could be my age and number of yrs no claims attached to my policy too!).

I was aware about the kerbweight but do find it reassuring that I'm within it too - I have seen a few trailers on their sides (pulled by small cars I might add) so when looking for a tow car safety was priority number 1 and I felt that the as a mimimum I wanted the car to weigh more than the loaded trailer. Nice to know I can go up though if I wanted - I do lust after a nice equitrek with living but for the cost think I may do better to save my pennies and buy a lorry, lol!


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## ROG (6 November 2011)

Ginn said:



			I was aware about the kerbweight but do find it reassuring that I'm within it too - I have seen a few trailers on their sides (pulled by small cars I might add) so when looking for a tow car safety was priority number 1 and I felt that the as a mimimum I wanted the car to weigh more than the loaded trailer.
		
Click to expand...

As I tried to explain in my last post if the towing vehicle is designed to tow a trailer heavier than itself do not worry
Think of the above as being along the same lines as lorries where many towing vehicles such as artic units tow trailers many times their weight and you don't see many on their sides


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## Happy Hunter (8 November 2011)

Afternoon ROG  tea and Biscuits for this thread - very useful!!

I am over the B limits - I know 
So im taking lessons soon and have been practicing with farrier (who has B+E and is insured on my Landy to help).

I was wondering if you can give me some pointers about the test contents???

What it entails? 
Approx length (Are we talking 20mins or 4 hours!?)
Does the Landy have to have any special test (Current MOT and valid insurance of course)
Does the Trailer have to have any checks?
Does the Landy have to have a 'beeper/buzzer' on the reverse gear???
Do you have to provide 'extra' wingmirrrors - ala caravan drivers??

Ta


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## ROG (8 November 2011)

Happy Hunter said:



			Afternoon ROG  tea and Biscuits for this thread - very useful!!

I am over the B limits - I know 
So im taking lessons soon and have been practicing with farrier (who has B+E and is insured on my Landy to help).

I was wondering if you can give me some pointers about the test contents???

What it entails? 
Approx length (Are we talking 20mins or 4 hours!?)
Does the Landy have to have any special test (Current MOT and valid insurance of course)
Does the Trailer have to have any checks?
Does the Landy have to have a 'beeper/buzzer' on the reverse gear???
Do you have to provide 'extra' wingmirrrors - ala caravan drivers??

Ta 

Click to expand...

Test entails a few basic safety Qs such 'show me that your tyres are legal?' or 'where and how would you check the oil?' - lasts 3 mins
reversing exercise - lasts about 10 mins max
uncouple/recouple exercise - lasts about 7 mins max
On the road driving - last about 60 mins

No reverse bleeper required
The examiner must have wing mirrors to see by

In regards as to whether the set up you have is DSA test ok, I would take it to either the test station or a friendly B+E trainer to find out before booking a B+E test
It is because of the DSA rules as to what set ups can be used that most doing B+E go for a B+E trainer who has the right kit


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## Paint Me Proud (8 November 2011)

Will be getting a FreeLander 2 HSE - want to tow with it.

I hold a post 1997 car license.

Will be carrying single horse approx 500kg

Can anyone suggest a trailer may be suitable for my needs

Thanks


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## tallyho! (9 November 2011)

Paint me Proud...

GVW is 2505 for that model so the trailer + horse would have to weigh less than 995 and I just checked the IWT website and even the single horsebox is 1600 MAM so you will be illegal with that set up I'm afraid as it is 4105kgs.... 

If you found a vehicle which was GVW 1900kg then you could get away with it.

It would be worth taking the B+E test...


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## ester (9 November 2011)

is this not the sort of situ where paint me proud might be looking to downrate a trailer?


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## ROG (9 November 2011)

ester said:



			is this not the sort of situ where paint me proud might be looking to downrate a trailer?
		
Click to expand...

That is an option BUT the horse weighs 500, that would mean the unladen trailer must weigh no more than 495 and I am not sure there is such a trailer for a horse ???


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## ester (9 November 2011)

ah yup I was just pondering really!


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## charliejet (9 November 2011)

1. B
2. 1501kg
3. 2050kg
4. 1800kg
5.  1450kg
6.  780kg

Thanks


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## ROG (9 November 2011)

charliejet said:



			1. B
2. 1501kg
3. 2050kg
4. 1800kg
5.  1450kg
6.  780kg
		
Click to expand...

*LEGAL for towing on a B licence* 
3+5=3500 right on the legal limit
2 is more than 5 = ok
670 can be loaded into the trailer


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## charliejet (9 November 2011)

Thank you for your time and for the quick reply  

Just thought I would double check with someone else, although I researched this at length before buying.
For anyone is interested I have a Ford Mondeo and an Ifor Williams 403 which had the plate downrated by Ifor Williams.  My little mare weighs 490kg so we are well within the weights.

Not all Mondeos are the same weights, it took me a while to find a suitable one but it tows the single trailer very well.  My horse travels brilliantly in her 403 as well.


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## charliejet (9 November 2011)

Just realised a mistake in my figures the Gross weight of the car is actually 2005kg (typing error) so comes in just under the 3500kg.


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## ROG (9 November 2011)

charliejet said:



			Just realised a mistake in my figures the Gross weight of the car is actually 2005kg (typing error) so comes in just under the 3500kg.
		
Click to expand...

No problem as still same answer = legal for B licence


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## Ginger Bear (10 November 2011)

Excellent thread.. could you do my mum's for me? 
She has a 52 plate Jeep Cherokee, trailer is an IW510, pre 1997 licence & we have 2 16'1 tbs..

Many thanks


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## ROG (10 November 2011)

Ginger Bear said:



			Excellent thread.. could you do my mum's for me? 
She has a 52 plate Jeep Cherokee, trailer is an IW510, pre 1997 licence & we have 2 16'1 tbs..

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

I am unable to find the specs for your jeep cherokee 2002 online so perhaps you could assist by looking at the plate in the vehicle or by getting the info from the V5 form or handbook - thanks
I found the trailer specs ok

Licence = B+E
Unladen/kerb weight = ???
GVW = ???
Towing capacity = ???
Trailer MAM = 2584
Unladen = 1000


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## ROG (10 November 2011)

Re post above - found this http://www.carbuddy.com.au/car/values/specification/viewspecs.aspx?gid=11497

Licence = B+E
Unladen/kerb weight = 1960
GVW = 2495
Towing capacity = 2948
Trailer MAM = 2584
Unladen = 1000

Using those newly found vehicle specs and assuming they are correct........

OK for B+E licence
you can load 1584 into the trailer so plenty for 2 large horses + tack etc


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## perfect11s (10 November 2011)

Hi Rog just been chatting with a guy  he was saying that you will need a O licence from next year to tow a trailer for your bussiness !!!!????  I know about the tachograph  rule 
but an o licence   if its true its more red tape and a good reason to pack up and emigrate...
  who would  want to be self employed these days !!!!


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## ROG (10 November 2011)

perfect11s said:



			Hi Rog just been chatting with a guy  he was saying that you will need a O licence from next year to tow a trailer for your bussiness !!!!????  I know about the tachograph  rule 
but an o licence   if its true its more red tape and a good reason to pack up and emigrate...
  who would  want to be self employed these days !!!!
		
Click to expand...

An O licence is already required if the total combined MAM is over 3.5 tonnes AND the trailer is over 1020 unladen - at least that seems to be the way I read the rules on that - see link below
http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=97014


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## perfect11s (11 November 2011)

ROG said:



			An O licence is already required if the total combined MAM is over 3.5 tonnes AND the trailer is over 1020 unladen - at least that seems to be the way I read the rules on that - see link below
http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=97014

Click to expand...

 Thanks from some of the coments it looks like they are doing away with the 1020 kg rule , doesent look good!!!!!


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## Mrs Pink (11 November 2011)

Hi Rog
Just a quick one regarding the O License

Are you not exempt if it's for Private use, ie: towing a horse as the O License is only for business? (Obviously, if you're a transport business you would have to have one)

And secondly, what are your interpretations of the CPC for HGV's
Accoring to the website it looks as if you are exempt if it
"is used for non-commercial carriage of passengers or goods, for personal use"

My Mother is convinced my sister & I will need to take it to carry on driving a Class C wagon which is for private use, but necessary as we sometimes need to take 4 horses so over weight on a 7.5 tonne

Sorry to go off topic, but just thought I'd ask
Many thanks


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## ROG (11 November 2011)

Mrs Pink said:



			Hi Rog
Just a quick one regarding the O License

Are you not exempt if it's for Private use, ie: towing a horse as the O License is only for business?
		
Click to expand...

O licences are only required for business not private use


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## ROG (11 November 2011)

Mrs Pink said:



			Hi Rogwhat are your interpretations of the CPC for HGV's
Accoring to the website it looks as if you are exempt if it
"is used for non-commercial carriage of passengers or goods, for personal use"
		
Click to expand...

Correct

The driver CPC is for those who are driving LGVs or PCVs commercially - commercially being the important word


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## Mrs Pink (11 November 2011)

Thanks for both replies

And re: the CPC, that's how I understood it so that's good

Many thanks once again, certainly a big help and doing a fab job with the trailer info


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## Ginger Bear (11 November 2011)

ROG said:



			Re post above - found this http://www.carbuddy.com.au/car/values/specification/viewspecs.aspx?gid=11497

Licence = B+E
Unladen/kerb weight = 1960
GVW = 2495
Towing capacity = 2948
Trailer MAM = 2584
Unladen = 1000

Using those newly found vehicle specs and assuming they are correct........

OK for B+E licence
you can load 1584 into the trailer so plenty for 2 large horses + tack etc
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that!!


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## WelshD (15 November 2011)

Hi, I cant find any towing weights for my 2000 plate Mercedes A class A170d I am looking to tow a small one sheep size livestock trailer

I have a b licence
my car kerbweight is 1240kg
the trailer range I am looking at is Ifor Williams P6e and P7e with an unladen weight of between 170kg and 200kg 

My sheep weigh no more than 100kg and only one is to be transported at a time on journeys of no more than 30 mile round trip

If there are no towing weights listed does that mean I cannot tow with my car full stop?

I've seen them with towbars which stupidly made me not check about towing before I bought the car!

Any help would be much appreciated

Thanks


----------



## ROG (15 November 2011)

WelshD said:



			Hi, I cant find any towing weights for my 2000 plate Mercedes A class A170d I am looking to tow a small one sheep size livestock trailer

I have a b licence
my car kerbweight is 1240kg
the trailer range I am looking at is Ifor Williams P6e and P7e with an unladen weight of between 170kg and 200kg 

My sheep weigh no more than 100kg and only one is to be transported at a time on journeys of no more than 30 mile round trip

If there are no towing weights listed does that mean I cannot tow with my car full stop?

I've seen them with towbars which stupidly made me not check about towing before I bought the car!

Any help would be much appreciated

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

This was as near as I could find http://www.parts-specs.com/mercedes-benz/a-class/A170-CDI-Classic-Fun-2000-021029

B licence
Kerb = 1050
GVW = 1500
Towing capacity = 800 braked or 400 unbraked
http://www.gttrailers.co.uk/new-trailers/ifor_williams_p6e_p7e_unbraked.html
The minimum unbraked in that list is 500 which is 100 over the car unbraked limit

*ALL THIS IS PROVIDING I HAVE FOUND THE CORRECT INFO*


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## WelshD (15 November 2011)

Lovely thats really helpful thank you so much for looking in to that for me, when I did a search on two other sites the towing weight just had a dash in it and no numbers 

It looks like I will be shopping for a lighter trailer then!


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## ROG (16 November 2011)

WelshD said:



			Lovely thats really helpful thank you so much for looking in to that for me, when I did a search on two other sites the towing weight just had a dash in it and no numbers 

It looks like I will be shopping for a lighter trailer then!
		
Click to expand...

CAVEAT - I am still assuming I have the right figures in my last post so perhaps some more detective work is necessary before going ahead

Perhaps a BRAKED trailer with a MAM of around 1000 which weighs 400 empty might be worth looking for as that would leave you with a 400 max load


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## WelshD (17 November 2011)

Thank you very much, I will do some more research then just to be sure, I guess my local Mercedes garage will be able to assist

Thank you for all of your help and also your posts and links in the rest of the thread I have had a good read through now and things are much clearer


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## TommisMum (19 November 2011)

There is nothing different legally when towing with a SWB.
The difference is with the ride quality for the passengers - a smoother ride is given by a LWB.


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## Rudey (20 November 2011)

Hey guys, I just wanted to share....

I passed my B+E!

If you fancy a gander at my thread, here it is: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=10174622#post10174622 

Ye be warned - it is far from light reading, I had a fair few drama's leading up to the test, including a costly lesson on my part!  Learn from my mistakes people!  xx


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## tallyho! (27 November 2011)

Ingledew said:



			There is nothing different legally when towing with a SWB.
The difference is with the ride quality for the passengers - a smoother ride is given by a LWB.
		
Click to expand...

I don't understand?


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## perfect11s (27 November 2011)

tallyhohoho said:



			I don't understand?
		
Click to expand...

 Um I did wonder also?? 
Its a post  a bit like when someone overhears a conversation,  buts in makes a vaguely releivant comment  with out  realy knowing what is being discused then wanders off..!!!


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## catembi (4 December 2011)

Hi there,

I picked up my trailer today...can I please ask lots of stupid questions?

Car - 3.4 litre petrol V6 Toyota Landcruiser.  Automatic; selective 4WD.
Vehicle weight - 2,700 kg.
Max towing weight (according to the manual) 2,800 kg.

Trailer - old 2-horse Rice.  Been extensively modernised & would therefore need weighing to be certain of exactly what it weighs.

Horse - ex-racer weighing maybe 550 to 600 kg.

Stupid questions...

For normal towing on the road, should we use 2 or 4 WD?  What gear should we be in - choice of drive, '2' or 'L'.  Overdrive on or off?  (Think off from the manual.)  2 buttons near the gearstick labelled 'pwr' & '2nd' - press them or not...??

What speed should we aim for when towing a) empty & b) with Trev on board?  The area round here is pretty flat.

I am about to have 4 new tyres on the car - bridgestones prob, but are there any that are particularly good or bad for towing?

Plus any gen tips for car maintenance if used for towing?

O/h says that the trailer was towing very 'heavy'...when we got home, I could hear faint rubbing from the trailer wheels on one side...where should I start looking to track it down?

All the above is probs v premature as it is uncertain whether Trev 'does' trailers.  Distinctly possible that I will have to chip in the trailer for an endurance saddle to hack everywhere...

T x


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## ROG (4 December 2011)

catembi said:



			Car - 3.4 litre petrol V6 Toyota Landcruiser.  Automatic; selective 4WD.
Vehicle weight - 2,700 kg.
Max towing weight (according to the manual) 2,800 kg.

Trailer - old 2-horse Rice.  Been extensively modernised & would therefore need weighing to be certain of exactly what it weighs.

Horse - ex-racer weighing maybe 550 to 600 kg.
		
Click to expand...

The only bits I can answer are re the towing rules
I expect the trailer will weigh around 1000 empty (GUESS)
It will be loaded with 600 appx
That leaves about 1100 to play with providing the plated MAM of the trailer is at least 2700

You will need a B+E licence to drive it


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## perfect11s (4 December 2011)

gear would be D without the overdrive  you could try the power (pwr) but that makes the gear changes later more revs  , 2wd on the road  unless its snowy or very muddy, as for maintanace just do your regular  checks  oil water and tyres and its a good idea to change the fluid in the transmission yearly and the engine oil lessen the mileage between changes so if its 12k do it every 8K if you do a lot of towing, and get the brakes and the hitch checked  on the trailer anualy, remember to grease the tow ball... should be fine on the weights but make sure the tow ball is at the right hight so trailer sits level... speed is what you feel safe at without going too slow as to be a hazzard to other traficor exceeding legal limits , go for a run empty and see how you feel  then try with Mr  horse on....


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## JenHunt (7 December 2011)

All help gratefully received!

1 - Licence = BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle = 1759kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle = (is this max loading weight? if so then 730kg)
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle = 3500kg braked
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres =  am 20 miles away, so will have to double check, but please work on figure of 3500kh, as for the IFOR HB510XL.
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer = ~1100kg

carrying up to 2x 600kg horses maximum.


thank you ROG in advance!


----------



## ROG (7 December 2011)

BoxingDayHunt said:



			1 - Licence = BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle = 1759kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle = (is this max loading weight? if so then 730kg)
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle = 3500kg braked
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres =  am 20 miles away, so will have to double check, but please work on figure of 3500kh, as for the IFOR HB510XL.
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer = ~1100kg

carrying up to 2x 600kg horses maximum.
		
Click to expand...

2 - would be 1759+730=2489 GVW which is the max weight it can be when fully loaded

4 - GTW is the max for the vehicle and trailer added together and 3500 does not seem right - I will assume 3500 is the towing capacity

Found this for trailer so will assume the 10' model
http://www.horsetrailersales.co.uk/NewIforHB510XL.htm

1 - B+E
2 - 1759
3 - 2489
4 - towing capacity 3500 (3500 GTW does not seem right)
5 - 3500
6 - 1172

You can load 2328 into the trailer

You can fully load the trailer and the towing vehicle and be perfectly legal on a B+E licence

The GTW would be 5989 (3500+2489) but I will guess if a GTW is listed for your vehicle then it is likely to be 6000


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## JenHunt (7 December 2011)

ROG said:



			2 - would be 1759+730=2489 GVW which is the max weight it can be when fully loaded

4 - GTW is the max for the vehicle and trailer added together and 3500 does not seem right - I will assume 3500 is the towing capacity

Found this for trailer so will assume the 10' model
http://www.horsetrailersales.co.uk/NewIforHB510XL.htm

1 - B+E
2 - 1759
3 - 2489
4 - towing capacity 3500 (3500 GTW does not seem right)
5 - 3500
6 - 1172

You can load 2328 into the trailer

You can fully load the trailer and the towing vehicle and be perfectly legal on a B+E licence

The GTW would be 5989 (3500+2489) but I will guess if a GTW is listed for your vehicle then it is likely to be 6000
		
Click to expand...

ahh I see... GVW is gross vehicle weight! so is GTW gross towing weight?

yup, that's the model of trailer I was meaning to compare with.

glad we're ok! always wondered with it being such a heavy trailer! thank you ROG!


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## ROG (7 December 2011)

BoxingDayHunt said:



			ahh I see... GVW is gross vehicle weight! so is GTW gross towing weight?
		
Click to expand...

GTW = Gross Train Weight officially but Gross Towing Weight works just as well for me


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## ROG (7 December 2011)

BoxingDayHunt said:



			glad we're ok! always wondered with it being such a heavy trailer!
		
Click to expand...

Your vehicle has been specifically designed to tow that weight


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## lottiepony (8 December 2011)

hey Rog,

Can you help with this question, going to take my trailer test early next year as know for a fact i can't tow legally without it! Anyway i have read that grandfather rights have been pulled so I cannot legally practice with L-plates and someone who has correct license next to me, is this right or not???? Just wondering as would like to get a bit of practice in!

thanks


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## ROG (8 December 2011)

lottiepony said:



			hey Rog,

Can you help with this question, going to take my trailer test early next year as know for a fact i can't tow legally without it! Anyway i have read that grandfather rights have been pulled so I cannot legally practice with L-plates and someone who has correct license next to me, is this right or not???? Just wondering as would like to get a bit of practice in!

thanks
		
Click to expand...

You already have B+E provisional on the paper part of your licence so anybody with a full B+E for over 3 years can supervise you with L plates and correct insurance

You can legally train on motorways

You can tow with a B licence but certain rules must be followed
The plated MAM of the trailer must not be more than the unladen/empty/kerb weight of the car
The GVW of the car plus the plated MAM of the trailer must not add up to more than 3500
The towing capacity (actual towing weight) of the car must not be exceeded

So this is legal for B towing - 
CAR - 
Unladen = 1500
GVW = 2000
Towing capacity = 1700
TRAILER - 
MAM = 1500
Unladen = 700

Leaves 800 for loading onto trailer - plenty for a large horse


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## clare1691 (9 December 2011)

Hi,
Hope you can help me? My ability to find the information you need is severely limited, mainly as I don't actually have a trailer yet, this is a theoretical question!

I have a B license.
Nissan X-trail Columbia Jan 2007
I'm looking into Cheval Liberte trailers as they seem to be the lightest, so I assume most likely to be legal!

If you need any more info I will try to help!

Many thanks


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## ROG (9 December 2011)

clare1691 said:



			Hi,
Hope you can help me? My ability to find the information you need is severely limited, mainly as I don't actually have a trailer yet, this is a theoretical question!

I have a B license.
Nissan X-trail Columbia Jan 2007
I'm looking into Cheval Liberte trailers as they seem to be the lightest, so I assume most likely to be legal!

If you need any more info I will try to help!

Many thanks

Click to expand...

No listings for a COLUMBIA anywhere but there is for COMFORT
http://www.getcarspecs.com/nissan/2007-nissan-x-trail-22-dci-comfort
Perhaps you could supply more info from the V5 registered keepers form please

Using the specs from the above link which is probably not your model ....
and for the trailer http://www.tallyhotrailers.co.uk/chavelliberte100.html but not the 1600 MAM model

Unladen = 1600
GVW = 2050
Towing capacity = 2000

Unladen = 655
MAM = 1400
Load capacity for the trailer = 745

*LEGAL for a B licence*

Give me more info for your vehicle and I'll give you a better answer


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## clare1691 (9 December 2011)

Thanks so much, will get more vehicle info for you when I get home! Guess from the sums that anything other than a single horse trailer would be over the weight limits?
Thanks again for your help!


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## ROG (9 December 2011)

clare1691 said:



			Thanks so much, will get more vehicle info for you when I get home! Guess from the sums that anything other than a single horse trailer would be over the weight limits?
		
Click to expand...

You would need two very light horses 2 X 450-ish along with a vehicle and trailer that had these specs -
VEHICLE - if there is one with these specs !!
Unladen = 1600
GVW = 1900
Towing capacity of at least 1600

TRAILER - perhaps the third cheval I mentioned
Unladen = 655
MAM = 1600
Loading capacity = 945


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## clare1691 (10 December 2011)

Thanks Rog, would only be for one horse, but he's about 650kg's. I'm always a little suspicious that the single trailers look like they'd topple over, but I may just have to get over it!


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## ROG (10 December 2011)

clare1691 said:



			Thanks Rog, would only be for one horse, but he's about 650kg's. I'm always a little suspicious that the single trailers look like they'd topple over, but I may just have to get over it!

Click to expand...

I'm sure there must be some on here who tow single horse trailers so perhaps a new thread in the NEW LOUNGE forum asking about them might be an idea

I would still like the exact model of Columbia you have just so I can be certain of the figures I used


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## Bikerchickone (14 December 2011)

Hi Rog, would be very grateful for your opinon/advice on the following...

Current car:
Unladen 1496 kgs
Towing capacity 1200kgs (braked)
Fully loaded weight - can't find this anywhere!
Trailer unloaded 675kgs (Bateson Derby lightweight)
MAM of trailer 1740 kgs
Category B licence.

Having read a lot about this, I'm pretty sure the above isn't legal, but I only want to tow one 550kgs horse at a time. Can I get the trailer downplated to 1400 to make this work?

If not is there a 4x4 out there that I could do this with so I don't need to take the test? Would rather keep my car if I can as love it lots (Scooby Impreza WRX!!) but can imagine it's not ideal for towing lol! 

Thank you very much for your help.
Nikki.


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## Bikerchickone (14 December 2011)

Sorry Rog, just realised I answered my own question with providing the figures. My car can't tow more than 1200 kgs so even if I get trailer downplated Scooby's a no go!  

So instead I guess my question is, do you know of a vehicle out there that I could legally use with my B licence to tow the Bateson Derby with one horse if I get it downplated, and how does downplating work? Heard the idea on here and have latched onto it like a life raft!!! 

Thank you.


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## ROG (14 December 2011)

bikerchickone said:



			Current car:
Unladen 1496 kgs
Towing capacity 1200kgs (braked)
Fully loaded weight - can't find this anywhere!
Trailer unloaded 675kgs (Bateson Derby lightweight)
MAM of trailer 1740 kgs
Category B licence.
		
Click to expand...

Would need to know the GVW of the car to give an answer because it is the GVW of the car plus the MAM of the trailer which needs to be no more than 3500
The fact that any downplating would still be more than the towing capacity makes no difference as that is not a rule/law

As you have realised, 1200 minus 675 = 525 which is less than the 550 of the horse so it is a no go


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## GingerWhinger (14 December 2011)

Hi Rog,
I need your help!! 

I am currently looking in to taking either my LGV or towing test (didnt pass my test until 1999)

Thinking financially as I already own a 4x4 then a trailer would be more economical.

Having clicked around on here for a while it seems it is possible to tow a trailer without taking an additional test - Obviously there are specifics to stick to etc and I doubt I fall in to that bracket!

I intend to tow with my 2003 Mitsubishi L200 Warrior
I would guesstimate my horse at around 680kg 

I do not yet own a trailer and do not have yet have a brand/make/model in mind.  Would love an Ifor Williams but it will all boil down to ££££

I assume I WILL need to take an additional test

I  am completely baffled by it all!!


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## ROG (14 December 2011)

GingerWhinger said:



			Hi Rog,
I need your help!! 

I am currently looking in to taking either my LGV or towing test (didnt pass my test until 1999)

Thinking financially as I already own a 4x4 then a trailer would be more economical.

Having clicked around on here for a while it seems it is possible to tow a trailer without taking an additional test - Obviously there are specifics to stick to etc and I doubt I fall in to that bracket!

I intend to tow with my 2003 Mitsubishi L200 Warrior
I would guesstimate my horse at around 680kg 

I do not yet own a trailer and do not have yet have a brand/make/model in mind.  Would love an Ifor Williams but it will all boil down to ££££

I assume I WILL need to take an additional test

I  am completely baffled by it all!!  

Click to expand...

If this is your model - 
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/l200/specifications.aspx?Variant=OX4
Then you cannot tow more than 750 kgs MAM on a B licence

passing a B+E test will last for life
passing a LGV test will last for only as long as you have a current medical

B+E cost all in about £650
LGV cost all in approx £1500 for C plus another £1000 for C+E
Assuming first time passes


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## ROG (14 December 2011)

BAFFLED ?

To tow with a B licence you need to say *NO* to the following -

Is the plated MAM of the trailer more than the UNLADEN/KERB/EMPTY weight of the towing vehicle?

Does the GVW of the towing vehicle plus the plated MAM of the trailer add up to more than 3500 kgs?

Is the ACTUAL weight of the empty trailer and its load more than the listed towing capacity?


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## GingerWhinger (14 December 2011)

See, put like that it is perfectly simple!!

Thank you ever so much, I was confusing myself further with every page I clicked on!

So towing test it is - Eeeeek!!!!

Thank you again. GW


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## Bikerchickone (15 December 2011)

Thanks Rog. Think I may have to put my horse on a diet lol! 

Appreciate the advice.


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## patchandloopy (15 December 2011)

Hi Rog, 

I have a 14.1hh pony and 505 Ifor, can I tow with a Mondeo 2.0ltr?  I havent got my B+E but am looking at getting it. 

Any help appreciated!! 

Thanks,


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## ROG (15 December 2011)

patchandloopy said:



			Hi Rog, 

I have a 14.1hh pony and 505 Ifor, can I tow with a Mondeo 2.0ltr?  I havent got my B+E but am looking at getting it. 

Any help appreciated!! 

Thanks,
		
Click to expand...

MONDEO 2.0
Need more info on which model it is BUT I CAN GUESS at rough figures
Unladen = 1400
GVW = 2000
Towing capacity = 1800
THESE ARE GUESSES

IFOR HB505
unladen = 905
MAM = 2340

Horse weight is probably 500 kgs max

*ILLEGAL on a B licence*
Reasons - 
2000 + 2340 = 4340 which is more than 3500
2340 is greater than 1400

Legal on a B+E licence as long as the trailer is not loaded with more than 895 (895 + 905 = 1800)


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## dornrose (15 December 2011)

Rog for information an iwt 505 is 750kgs empty and has a mam of 2700kgs.


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## ROG (16 December 2011)

dornrose said:



			Rog for information an iwt 505 is 750kgs empty and has a mam of 2700kgs.
		
Click to expand...

Not according to these - 
http://www.horsetrailers4hire.co.uk/page1.aspx

http://www.newrider.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-151490.html

http://www.yourhorse.co.uk/Community-Landing/Forum-Landing/Forum-Categories/Topic/?&topic-id=4093


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## patchandloopy (16 December 2011)

ROG said:



			MONDEO 2.0
Need more info on which model it is BUT I CAN GUESS at rough figures
Unladen = 1400
GVW = 2000
Towing capacity = 1800
THESE ARE GUESSES

IFOR HB505
unladen = 905
MAM = 2340

Horse weight is probably 500 kgs max

*ILLEGAL on a B licence*
Reasons - 
2000 + 2340 = 4340 which is more than 3500
2340 is greater than 1400

Legal on a B+E licence as long as the trailer is not loaded with more than 895 (895 + 905 = 1800)
		
Click to expand...

Thank you ROG very very helpful, I am wanting to buy a new car and need something suitable to communt with and use for the horse    I wouldnt take anything else with me so I have plenty of weight for one horse/pony.


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## ROG (16 December 2011)

patchandloopy said:



			Thank you ROG very very helpful, I am wanting to buy a new car and need something suitable to communt with and use for the horse    I wouldnt take anything else with me so I have plenty of weight for one horse/pony.
		
Click to expand...

your biggest problem is the trailer - the MAM and unladen weights are too high on a HB505 for B licence towing

You may find that you will need to get a trailer and have it downplated by the manufacturer

I'll give you some MADE UP examples that are not too far from what is available out there which will be legal for B licence towing and a 500 kg horse

CAR
Unladen 1500
GVW 2000
Towing capacity 1700

TRAILER
Unladen 800
MAM 1500 OR any above that figure which you get downplated to 1500
Max load 700

2000 CAR GVW + 1500 TRAILER MAM = 3500 so legal for B towing
1500 TRAILER MAM is not more than 1500 CAR Unladen so legal for B towing
Fully laden TRAILER at 1500 is well within 1700 capacity

A suggestion - to keep costs down if still intending to tow with a B licence and not passing B+E test then do a trailer swap with someone who has B+E and wants a larger trailer than they have already got - IDEA?


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## patchandloopy (16 December 2011)

ROG said:



			your biggest problem is the trailer - the MAM and unladen weights are too high on a HB505 for B licence towing

You may find that you will need to get a trailer and have it downplated by the manufacturer

I'll give you some MADE UP examples that are not too far from what is available out there which will be legal for B licence towing and a 500 kg horse

CAR
Unladen 1500
GVW 2000
Towing capacity 1700

TRAILER
Unladen 800
MAM 1500 OR any above that figure which you get downplated to 1500
Max load 700

2000 CAR GVW + 1500 TRAILER MAM = 3500 so legal for B towing
1500 TRAILER MAM is not more than 1500 CAR Unladen so legal for B towing
Fully laden TRAILER at 1500 is well within 1700 capacity

A suggestion - to keep costs down if still intending to tow with a B licence and not passing B+E test then do a trailer swap with someone who has B+E and wants a larger trailer than they have already got - IDEA?
		
Click to expand...

Ok, I dont have my B+E but was planning on getting it.  So it would be easier - from what I gather your saying is to get a lighter trailer as I am only going to be taking 1 out with me as a result of circumstance and car tow weight.  

So if the Ifor 403 single horsebox has a gross of 1600kg and unladen of 767kg, I would need that downplated to 1500kg to be on a B license?  But if I got my B+E I would be ok without downplated even on a 505, I would just have a very heavy trailer I didnt need?

Sorry for the questions trying to work it all out!


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## ROG (16 December 2011)

patchandloopy said:



			Ok, I dont have my B+E but was planning on getting it.  So it would be easier - from what I gather your saying is to get a lighter trailer as I am only going to be taking 1 out with me as a result of circumstance and car tow weight.  

So if the Ifor 403 single horsebox has a gross of 1600kg and unladen of 767kg, I would need that downplated to 1500kg to be on a B license?  But if I got my B+E I would be ok without downplated even on a 505, I would just have a very heavy trailer I didnt need?

Sorry for the questions trying to work it all out!
		
Click to expand...

You got it 

Even with a B+E licence, the only other thing with the HB505 would be the unladen weight of 905 because if the towing vehicle had a low towing capacity of say 1300 then only a load of just under 400 could be put in the trailer


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## ROG (3 January 2012)

Well.... this thread has gone very quiet ..... does that mean everyone is now happy about the rules?


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## kiagirl (3 January 2012)

ROG please can you help me. I have a B licence.

I have a Kia with a GVW of 2030 and a kerb weight min of 1525 and max 1636. towing capacity is 1900.  My YO has a richardson supreme that has an unladen weight of  1100 and a towing capacity of 1600. I would be towing one 400kg horse. Am I illegal?

Thank you


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## ROG (4 January 2012)

kiagirl said:



			ROG please can you help me. I have a B licence.

I have a Kia with a GVW of 2030 and a kerb weight min of 1525 and max 1636. towing capacity is 1900.  My YO has a richardson supreme that has an unladen weight of  1100 and a towing capacity of 1600. I would be towing one 400kg horse. Am I illegal?

Thank you
		
Click to expand...

Got the car ok but the trailer has me foxed !!

B licence
Car Unladen = 1636
Car GVW = 2030
Car towing capacity = 1900
Trailer unladen = 1100
Trailer MAM = ????

I have a feeling that the 1600 you quoted is the payload and not the MAM


The SUPREME ULTRA has: -  
Gross Weight - 2700KG
Unladen Weight - 1100KG
Pay Load - 1600KG
*IS THIS YOUR MODEL?*

What is the plated MAM of your trailer?

I can inform you of this: -
Any trailer you tow must not be plated at more than 1470 because 1470+2030=3500 which is the max total for a B licence

If the trailer is the one I listed then you could have it downplated by the manufacturer BUT that would only leave a loading capacity of 370 (1470-1100=370) and your horse alone is 400

My advice would be to get a trailer which weighs around 800 unladen/empty (plenty of those about) and make sure it is plated at no more than 1470 so it leaves a load capacity of 670 and it will then conform to all the rules for B licence towing


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## .Redmerl (5 January 2012)

I have a question pls. I have B test but our single trailer isn't plated at all (it was made by a friend for us) I'm guessing I can't tow it with B licence if its not played with a gross weight?

Also the vehicles that have a low gross weight Seam to be big hatchs, Volvo, Mondeo ect, do they tow ok? Just think towing and imaging a big 4x4


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## ROG (5 January 2012)

.Redmerl said:



			I have a question pls. I have B test but our single trailer isn't plated at all (it was made by a friend for us) I'm guessing I can't tow it with B licence if its not played with a gross weight?

Also the vehicles that have a low gross weight Seam to be big hatchs, Volvo, Mondeo ect, do they tow ok? Just think towing and imaging a big 4x4
		
Click to expand...

The trailer will have a load rating on the tyres so how many tyres and what is the load rating on them?

The total of the load ratings on the tyres will be the trailer MAM


----------



## .Redmerl (5 January 2012)

I see thanks you. Trailer isn't at home at the moment but it's got 4 wheels, and it's been on a weigh bridge at some point and weighs at most 800kg, horse is 550kg at most. So tyres would need load weight totalling 1400kg as car has gw of 2050kg and Kerb of 1500kg. Is this right? Would I be legal on B licence? Although I'm not sure if I would get tyres with a load Wight of 350kg each. If not we would buy a single ifor plated at 1400kg


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## ROG (5 January 2012)

.Redmerl said:



			I see thanks you. Trailer isn't at home at the moment but it's got 4 wheels, and it's been on a weigh bridge at some point and weighs at most 800kg, horse is 550kg at most. So tyres would need load weight totalling 1400kg as car has gw of 2050kg and Kerb of 1500kg. Is this right? Would I be legal on B licence? Although I'm not sure if I would get tyres with a load Wight of 350kg each. If not we would buy a single ifor plated at 1400kg
		
Click to expand...

Chances are that all 4 tyres will have the same load rating so that will be 4 X the load rating which will be the trailer MAM
TYRE LOAD RATINGS CHART
Lets say that the load rating is 76 (400kgs) on all 4 tyres
That would be a MAM of 1600kgs

CAR
GVW = 2050
KERB = 1500
Towing capacity = NEED TO KNOW THIS but guessing at over 1500 

TRAILER
MAM or TOTAL TYRE LOAD RATING (TTLR) = ?????
UNLADEN = 800

To tow on a B licence with your vehicle the MAM or TOTAL OF THE TYRE LOAD RATINGS must not be more than 1450 
1450+2050=3500 max allowed for a B licence 

As the trailer MAM/TTLR must not be more than 1450 it will be below the 1500 kerb weight so that will be ok


----------



## .Redmerl (5 January 2012)

Thanks v much, cat can tow 1800kg. So just need to check tyres on trailer. 
Do you have any experience with towing with a Mondeo type car? Do they manage ok? The actual weight it would be towing is about 1300kg.


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## ROG (5 January 2012)

.Redmerl said:



			Thanks v much, cat can tow 1800kg. So just need to check tyres on trailer. 
Do you have any experience with towing with a Mondeo type car? Do they manage ok? The actual weight it would be towing is about 1300kg.
		
Click to expand...

Great - towing capacity is fine

Never towed with such a car so no help there but plenty on here do

I am trying to find out if a home made trailer which has a trye load rating of say 1600 can be plated because if it can then that might solve the MAM issue as it could be plated to what you want BUT no luck so far .....


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## .Redmerl (5 January 2012)

Thanks, unless I see if I can have the tyres changed to total 1450kg, if it's safe to do so as it will only actually be about 1300kg??????


----------



## ROG (6 January 2012)

.Redmerl said:



			Thanks, unless I see if I can have the tyres changed to total 1450kg, if it's safe to do so as it will only actually be about 1300kg??????
		
Click to expand...

What are the current tyre load ratings?


----------



## ROG (10 January 2012)

Towing a Box Van Trailer behind horsebox

Towing with vehicles over 3.5 tonnes come under different rules and are quite simple -

For towing any trailer over 750 kgs the driver must have a +E on the licence for the category being used to tow with

Towing a trailer over 750 kgs with a C1 vehicle requires the driver to have a C1+E on their licence

The total max weight when towing with a fully loaded 7.5 tonner on a C1 licence can be 8.25 tonnes (7500+750) 

Some small trailers bounce around when being towed by a truck and as the driver is usually unable to see what is happening then it is a good idea to have a follow-car see what is happening on a test drive with the trailer.


----------



## Princess P (10 January 2012)

Which cars can tow 3.5 t?

Sorry if this has been done already, but does anyone have a list of cars that can safely / legally tow 3500kg?

In my dreams my next trailer will be a equitrek multi trekka with a max capacity of 3500kg which my mitsubishi shogun sport will not be able to tow :-(

Thank you for any replies
X


----------



## ROG (10 January 2012)

Princess P said:



			Which cars can tow 3.5 t?

Sorry if this has been done already, but does anyone have a list of cars that can safely / legally tow 3500kg?

In my dreams my next trailer will be a equitrek multi trekka with a max capacity of 3500kg which my mitsubishi shogun sport will not be able to tow :-(

Thank you for any replies
X
		
Click to expand...

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_vehicles.htm

All vehicles capable of towing 3500 kg - then click search


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## ROG (10 January 2012)

Depends which shogun you have
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/shogun/
Increased towing capacity 
SWB 3,000 kg
LWB 3,500 kg


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## kiagirl (14 January 2012)

Thank you ROG - that is the trailer. I will keep my eye out for a lightweight.


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## Overgrown Pony (14 January 2012)

Hey ROG

I have a brand new Vauxhall Insignia 2ltr TD 160bhp

Towing capacity (braked)	1800kg
Kerb weight			        1570kg
Gross vehicle weight/MAM	2145kg
GTW				        3810kg

Trying to figure out what trailer I can use to pull 1 x 16.2hh horse around 600kg on a B license.

Any idea on my best way to figure it out, bearing in mind I can get a trailer down plated to stay under the 3500kg threshold.

I know I can pull a Cheval Liberte single but getting a hold of a 2nd hand one is nigh on impossible unless I want to travel to the bottom of England for it (i'm up in Aberdeen).  Only seems to Ifors 2nd hand up here.  They must be all the rage 

Thanks in advance for your help.  This towing business is a minefield


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## ROG (15 January 2012)

1kimmy said:



			I have a brand new Vauxhall Insignia 2ltr TD 160bhp

Towing capacity (braked)	1800kg
Kerb weight			        1570kg
Gross vehicle weight/MAM	2145kg
GTW				        3810kg

Trying to figure out what trailer I can use to pull 1 x 16.2hh horse around 600kg on a B license.

Any idea on my best way to figure it out, bearing in mind I can get a trailer down plated to stay under the 3500kg threshold.
		
Click to expand...

You will need to search for a trailer which has a max unladen weight of 700 kgs
Most of those will have a MAM over 1500 kgs so you will need to get the trailer manufacturer to downplate it to 1350
That will leave a loading capacity of 650 - your horse is 600 - not a lot to spare!!


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## Overgrown Pony (15 January 2012)

Thanks so much for your response.  I've noted that down.  So complicated getting it right/legal so really appreciate your help


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## Horses24-7 (16 January 2012)

B but have a passenger with b+e so drive with L plates until I take test
 Vehicle weight- 2000kg
 Max vehicle can tow- 1800kg
 MAM of trailer 1600kg
 Empty trailer 732kg

Horse weighs 570kg so could I down plate to tow without b+e on my own?


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## ROG (16 January 2012)

Horses24-7 said:



			B but have a passenger with b+e so drive with L plates until I take test
 Vehicle weight- 2000kg
 Max vehicle can tow- 1800kg
 MAM of trailer 1600kg
 Empty trailer 732kg

Horse weighs 570kg so could I down plate to tow without b+e on my own?
		
Click to expand...

If passenger is over age 21, has held B+E for at least 3 years, Insurance covers a learner and L plates are fitted then OK

The one weight that is missing is the vehicle unladen weight but I can say this - 
IF .... the vehicle unladen weight is 1500 and you downplate the trailer to 1500 which leaves a loading capacity of 768 then you will be legal for towing on a B licence
Reasons - 
2000 GVW+1500 MAM=3500 right on the legal limit
1500 MAM would not be more than the 1500 unladen weight of the vehicle so thats OK
The towing capacity of 1800 has not been exceeded so thats OK

*A few on here are asking about this sort of set up for B licence towing so can you tell us what vehicle and trailer you have please*

EDIT & ADD
I guess your trailer is one of these - http://www.tallyhotrailers.co.uk/chavelliberte100.html ?


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## Princess P (18 January 2012)

Depends which shogun you have
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/shogun/
Increased towing capacity 
SWB 3,000 kg
LWB 3,500 kg
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog, that towing horse trailers website link was really helpful.

My shogun sport is 54 reg 2.5 TD, I'm pretty sure the book says 2.8 t towing capacity.

Looking at the list on your link I think I'll go for a disco next

Thanks for your help


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## ROG (18 January 2012)

Princess P said:



			My shogun sport is 54 reg 2.5 TD, I'm pretty sure the book says 2.8 t towing capacity.
		
Click to expand...

I think so too - 
http://www.ukmotorists.com/car_data.asp?make=Mitsubishi&model=Pajero 2.5 TD Sport


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## Horses24-7 (18 January 2012)

ROG said:



			If passenger is over age 21, has held B+E for at least 3 years, Insurance covers a learner and L plates are fitted then OK

The one weight that is missing is the vehicle unladen weight but I can say this - 
IF .... the vehicle unladen weight is 1500 and you downplate the trailer to 1500 which leaves a loading capacity of 768 then you will be legal for towing on a B licence
Reasons - 
2000 GVW+1500 MAM=3500 right on the legal limit
1500 MAM would not be more than the 1500 unladen weight of the vehicle so thats OK
The towing capacity of 1800 has not been exceeded so thats OK

*A few on here are asking about this sort of set up for B licence towing so can you tell us what vehicle and trailer you have please*

EDIT & ADD
I guess your trailer is one of these - http://www.tallyhotrailers.co.uk/chavelliberte100.html ?
		
Click to expand...

Good guess! With a passat 2lt tdi sport. Cars unladen in 1648 kg so would that still work if I can down plate?

I'm going to take it all to the weigh bridge to double check before I downplate etc but wanted to get an idea


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## ROG (19 January 2012)

Horses24-7 said:



			Good guess! With a passat 2lt tdi sport. Cars unladen in 1648 kg so would that still work if I can down plate?

I'm going to take it all to the weigh bridge to double check before I downplate etc but wanted to get an idea 

Click to expand...

passat 2lt tdi sport
unladen = 1648kg
GVW =  2000kg
Max vehicle towing capacity = 1800kg

Chival 1003 xxl pullman trailer
MAM of trailer 1600kg
Empty trailer 732kg

Horse weighs 570kg so could I down plate to tow without b+e on my own? 

Downplate to 1500 and you will be legal for B licence towing


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## Overgrown Pony (21 January 2012)

Hey ROG

Considering sitting my towing test so please advise what weight of trailer I could get on a B+E licence.  

I have a brand new Vauxhall Insignia 2ltr TD 160bhp

Towing capacity (braked) 1800kg
Kerb weight 1570kg
Gross vehicle weight/MAM 2145kg
GTW 3810kg

Would be used to pull 1 x 16.2hh horse around 600kg.

Thanks in advance for your help.


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## ROG (21 January 2012)

1kimmy said:



			Hey ROG

Considering sitting my towing test so please advise what weight of trailer I could get on a B+E licence.  

I have a brand new Vauxhall Insignia 2ltr TD 160bhp

Towing capacity (braked) 1800kg
Kerb weight 1570kg
Gross vehicle weight/MAM 2145kg
GTW 3810kg

Would be used to pull 1 x 16.2hh horse around 600kg.

Thanks in advance for your help.
		
Click to expand...

On a B+E licence you could get any trailer up to 3500 MAM as most are under 1000 unladen weight
Most trailers are around 800 unladen leaving you a load capacity of about 1000 on an 1800 towing capacity

The towing capacity does not limit the MAM of the trailer if that is what you were thinking

For a B licence a TRAILER of 1350 MAM (downplated from 1400 by manufacturer) and an unladen weight of 655 would suffice for a 600 horse


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## ROG (21 January 2012)

1kimmy said:



			I have a brand new Vauxhall Insignia 2ltr TD 160bhp

Towing capacity (braked) 1800kg
Kerb weight 1570kg
Gross vehicle weight/MAM 2145kg
GTW 3810kg
		
Click to expand...

Towing capacity 1800 + 2145 GVW = 3945
GTW = 3810
The GTW must not be exceeded so it is illegal to load the car to 2145 and the trailer to 1800 at the same time

There are many cases like this so drivers need to know that none of the weights can legally be exceeded


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## Scottish_Miss (23 January 2012)

Question as other half suggesting I look for a Subaru Forester but I'm not sure it will be OK to tow with one.

I have a pre 97 licence.

horse = 590Kg
Trailer will be Ifor 510

So if car is Forester and most are 2.0l petrols with max braking towing weight of 1500 im over limit yes>????

Im more thinking a Sorento, X Trail, Santa Fe or  or terrano!!!

any one help???


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## noodle_ (23 January 2012)

.





Question.   I passed in 2005, to tow *legally* !!.... can i??

without taking another test...?

if so, how much?? horse is approx 550.

thanks in advance


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## ROG (23 January 2012)

Scottish_Miss said:



			Question as other half suggesting I look for a Subaru Forester but I'm not sure it will be OK to tow with one.

I have a pre 97 licence.

horse = 590Kg
Trailer will be Ifor 510

So if car is Forester and most are 2.0l petrols with max braking towing weight of 1500 im over limit yes>????

Im more thinking a Sorento, X Trail, Santa Fe or  or terrano!!!

any one help???
		
Click to expand...

No good
http://www.horsetrailersales.co.uk/NewIforHB510.htm
510 has an unladen weight of 1000
so 1000+590=1590 which is more than the 1500 towing capacity


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## ROG (23 January 2012)

noodle_ said:



			Question.   I passed in 2005, to tow *legally* !!.... can i??

without taking another test...?

if so, how much?? horse is approx 550.

thanks in advance 

Click to expand...

Yes you can tow but under B licence towing rules

What vehicle do you have?
What are the specs
Unladen weight = 
GVW = 
Towing capacity = 

with that info I can suggest what trailer you should look for so it complies with the rules for a B licence


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## noodle_ (23 January 2012)

ROG said:



			Yes you can tow but under B licence towing rules

What vehicle do you have?
What are the specs
Unladen weight = 
GVW = 
Towing capacity = 

with that info I can suggest what trailer you should look for so it complies with the rules for a B licence
		
Click to expand...



id be totally illegal and dangerous with what i have now 

honda civic ! 


just wondering what type of estate??? or 4x4 i could legally tow with! 


as i honestly thought i needed to do my trailer test to tow ANYTHING


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## ROG (24 January 2012)

noodle_ said:



			just wondering what type of estate??? or 4x4 i could legally tow with! 


as i honestly thought i needed to do my trailer test to tow ANYTHING 

Click to expand...

Here is an example of towing legally on a B licence - 
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=10351574&postcount=197
There are many more examples if you search through this 20 page thread


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## ROG (24 January 2012)

For those wondering how to downplate a trailer so it conforms to B licence towing then click this link - DOWNPLATING A TRAILER


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## noodle_ (25 January 2012)

thank you ROG - very helpful  

Ideally id love to tow with a good estate as my tax/insurance is cheaper - id only ever be towing one horse so i will look into it


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## bonbeau (25 January 2012)

Hello, can you help me please, I'm ending up getting a bit confused whether or not I need to do a test!! I'm also struggling to find all the weights and if I have the right ones...I don't know why I'm getting so confused with this but hopefully you can help!
Thanks

1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1457
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2000
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres = 2584
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 1000


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## ROG (25 January 2012)

bonbeau said:



			1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1457
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 
4 - towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2000
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer = 2584
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 1000
		
Click to expand...

Really need the GVW but I can say this 

*It would be ILLEGAL to tow this on a B licence*

Reasons
The trailer MAM of 2584 is more than the vehicle unladen weight of 1457
The trailer MAM of 2584 plus whatever the vehicle GVW might be is going to be well over 3500

The only way you could tow this trailer on a B licence is to downplate the trailer to 1450 but that means you could only load it with 450 
That is also assuming the GVW of the vehicle is not more than 2050

IF you had a B+E licence then the only restriction would be the load you put onto the trailer which would be 1000 as it already weighs 1000 unladen/empty and the vehicle has a towing capacity of 2000


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## ROG (25 January 2012)

noodle_ said:



			thank you ROG - very helpful  

Ideally id love to tow with a good estate as my tax/insurance is cheaper - id only ever be towing one horse so i will look into it 

Click to expand...

Find a vehicle and post these specs on here
Unladen/kerb weight
GVW
Towing capacity

Weight of horse plus anything else you need to load in the trailer

I will then inform you as to what you need in the way of a trailer which will conform to B licence towing


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## perfect11s (25 January 2012)

Just been looking at a equitrek trailer with a friend,  im now a bit confused about weights, they have an unladen weight of 1900kg and a gross of 3500kg.. but I always understood if it was over 1020kg unladen they were subject to anual testing and needed a ministy plate?????  
Thanks...


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## ROG (26 January 2012)

perfect11s said:



			Just been looking at a equitrek trailer with a friend,  im now a bit confused about weights, they have an unladen weight of 1900kg and a gross of 3500kg.. but I always understood if it was over 1020kg unladen they were subject to anual testing and needed a ministy plate?????  
Thanks...
		
Click to expand...

The 1020 is the current Operator licencing limit but there are plans afoot to reduce that to zero

VOSA/ministry plates are for trailers over 3500 MAM because they come under different rules


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## perfect11s (26 January 2012)

ROG said:



			The 1020 is the current Operator licencing limit but there are plans afoot to reduce that to zero

VOSA/ministry plates are for trailers over 3500 MAM because they come under different rules
		
Click to expand...

 OK sort of get it but  ive seen this  on vosa and dft laws saying 1020 unladen above that it needs a plate??? someone I asked who knows about trucks and trailers said it was why a lot of livestock trailers had a removeable container!!! , caravans  are over 1020  so maybe like you say and I would agree the law totaly changes at 3500kg and maybe  under its not required , Thanks again..


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## ROG (26 January 2012)

perfect11s said:



			OK sort of get it but  ive seen this  on vosa and dft laws saying 1020 unladen above that it needs a plate??? someone I asked who knows about trucks and trailers said it was why a lot of livestock trailers had a removeable container!!!
		
Click to expand...

1020 with a fixed container would put it over 1020 so come into O licence but 1020 with removable container means the container is part of the load so not into O licence rules


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## Kat (2 February 2012)

Hi, I've just bought a 55plate Nissan Navara D40 with a 2.5L diesel engine and manual gear box. It is my intention to get a trailer so I can take my horse out but I'm not sure what I should be looking at trailer wise. 

I have a pre-1997 licence so B+E entitlement. DH only has a B licence (missed out by about 10 days  ) I have been working on the assumption that we wouldn't be able to get anything he could tow without doing a trailer test but if there is an option I'd be grateful to hear it. 

We only have one horse, I guess she weighs no more than 600kg as a fairly lightweight warmblood standing at 15.3/16hh. Would be nice if we had space/capacity for a second if we chose but not essential.


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## ROG (2 February 2012)

Kat said:



			Hi, I've just bought a 55plate Nissan Navara D40 with a 2.5L diesel engine and manual gear box. It is my intention to get a trailer so I can take my horse out but I'm not sure what I should be looking at trailer wise. 

I have a pre-1997 licence so B+E entitlement. DH only has a B licence (missed out by about 10 days  ) I have been working on the assumption that we wouldn't be able to get anything he could tow without doing a trailer test but if there is an option I'd be grateful to hear it. 

We only have one horse, I guess she weighs no more than 600kg as a fairly lightweight warmblood standing at 15.3/16hh. Would be nice if we had space/capacity for a second if we chose but not essential.
		
Click to expand...

I would need the actual weights for the nissan but it seems from what I could find that the GVW is about 3000 and the towing capacity is also about 3000

I would go for a trailer with a MAM of 3500 so that you have the option for a sencond horse but the limit would still be 3000
Empty trailers are about 1000 with a 3500 MAM so that would leave a loading capacity of 2000 (2000+1000=3000) - you could get 3 horses in that weight wise !!

DH can only tow a trailer with a max MAM of 750 because the GVW of the nissan is so high at around 3000 BUT.....
They can drive it as a learner if you are sitting next to them as the supervising driver


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## Kat (2 February 2012)

Wow thanks for the speedy response! 

Would the GVW and towing weight be in the user manual? If so i'll check and repost later. 

Is that right that I could supervise DH? It would be good if I could as it would give us more flexibility and he is unlikely to want to take the horse out without me or another pre-1997 licence holder going along. I thought I had heard that you could only supervise someone towing as a learner if you had done your towing test yourself, is that incorrect or is it on its way? It would be good if he could get some practice in as it would make doing the towing test much cheaper!


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## ROG (2 February 2012)

Kat said:



			Wow thanks for the speedy response! 

Would the GVW and towing weight be in the user manual? If so i'll check and repost later. 

Is that right that I could supervise DH? It would be good if I could as it would give us more flexibility and he is unlikely to want to take the horse out without me or another pre-1997 licence holder going along. I thought I had heard that you could only supervise someone towing as a learner if you had done your towing test yourself, is that incorrect or is it on its way? It would be good if he could get some practice in as it would make doing the towing test much cheaper!
		
Click to expand...

Yes it should be in the manual or on the V5 form

Yes you can supervise DH

New supervising laws came into force in April 2010 but they were only for vocational licences D1 D1+E C1 C1+E
They did not include B+E


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## Django Pony (4 February 2012)

Hi,

I'm thinking about getting a Sinclair trailer. Its unladen weight is 700kg, its max is 2000kg. What sort of car would be suitable to tow it? I'm due to change my company car in May and will be restricted to what's on the list at the time, but I'd like an idea of might be suitable? I would only put 1 horse in, he weighs about 475kg.

I am going to do my B+E asap, and won't tow anything at all until I've passed it!


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## ROG (4 February 2012)

JustJasper said:



			Hi,

I'm thinking about getting a Sinclair trailer. Its unladen weight is 700kg, its max is 2000kg. What sort of car would be suitable to tow it? I'm due to change my company car in May and will be restricted to what's on the list at the time, but I'd like an idea of might be suitable? I would only put 1 horse in, he weighs about 475kg.

I am going to do my B+E asap, and won't tow anything at all until I've passed it!
		
Click to expand...

With a B+E licence then any vehicle with a towing capacity of at least 1200 kgs - there must be hundreds to choose from !!

On a B licence you could tow that if you got it downplated and the weight figures on the towing vehicle (unladen & GVW) worked out ok


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## jodie3 (6 February 2012)

Can a petrol (short wheel base) Ford Maverick tow a trailer with a gross weight of 3500kg and an unladen weight of 1105kg  with a load of approx 1400kg?  Looking at the plate on the vehicle it says 2300kg and 5100kg?  My gut feeling is no but the more I try to work it out the more confused I become!!  I have a pre 97 licence.

Thanks in advance.


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## ROG (7 February 2012)

jodie3 said:



			Can a petrol (short wheel base) Ford Maverick tow a trailer with a gross weight of 3500kg and an unladen weight of 1105kg  with a load of approx 1400kg?  Looking at the plate on the vehicle it says 2300kg and 5100kg?  My gut feeling is no but the more I try to work it out the more confused I become!!  I have a pre 97 licence.

Thanks in advance.
		
Click to expand...

You have a B+E so thats OK
http://www.parts-specs.com/ford/Maverick-SWB/2.7-TD-1993-008683
Form the link above it seems that there is also a towing capacity of 2300
Is this the same for the model you have?
Towing capacity is the ACTUAL weight the trailer and its load can be

Another specs site says this -
http://www.cars-data.com/en/ford-maverick-swb-24i-glx-124hp-40865/specs.html
WEIGHTS
Empty mass: 1600 kg
Maximum permissible mass: 2300 kg
Maximum payload: 700 kg
Maximum trailer mass braked: 2300 kg
Maximum trailer mass unbraked: 750 kg

The figures you posted have got me a little confused because  2300 is the GVW which is the max the maverick can be when fully loaded - 5100 is the GTW which is the max weight the loaded vehicle and trailer can be in total
5100 minus 2300 = 2800 which is more than the 2300 towing capacity I found

*IS THERE A TOWING CAPACITY LISTED IN THE HANDBOOK OR ON THE V5 ??*

Using JUST the figures you posted and assuming no towing capacity is listed then .....
As long as none of these three weights are exceeded you will be legal -
1 - the 2300 GVW of the Maverick
2 - the 3500 MAM of the trailer
3 - the 5100 GTW which is the actual weight of the lot


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## jodie3 (7 February 2012)

Thank you!

Its our farm vehicle so not sure where the V5 is but I'll have a look later and see if here is a handbook in it.

The figures came off the plate in the engine compartment, there where two other figures, 1160kg and 1250kg which I assumed where something to do with axle weights?

I looked on my car (LWB Terrano) and the figures on that are 2580kg, 5380kg, 1160kg and 1460kg so that means mine can tow a little more weight?

Clicking on the link you gave it does look like the same as our Maverick.

So does that mean that the car on its own, without a trailer, can have a load of 2300kg?

Then with a trailer on the maximum weight of both together must not exceed 5100kg?

If we play safe and assume the towable weight is 2300kg and the unladen weight of the trailer is 1105 (from their website) and the horses are 1400kg then we are not legal and if we use the figure of 2800kg then we only have about 300kg to play with which doesn't seem very much.

Sorry if I am being dense but want to have it totally clear in my own mind before I tell my boss her car isn't man enough for the job!!


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## ROG (7 February 2012)

jodie3 said:



			Thank you!

Its our farm vehicle so not sure where the V5 is but I'll have a look later and see if here is a handbook in it.

The figures came off the plate in the engine compartment, there where two other figures, 1160kg and 1250kg which I assumed where something to do with axle weights?

I looked on my car (LWB Terrano) and the figures on that are 2580kg, 5380kg, 1160kg and 1460kg so that means mine can tow a little more weight?

Clicking on the link you gave it does look like the same as our Maverick.

So does that mean that the car on its own, without a trailer, can have a load of 2300kg?

Then with a trailer on the maximum weight of both together must not exceed 5100kg?

If we play safe and assume the towable weight is 2300kg and the unladen weight of the trailer is 1105 (from their website) and the horses are 1400kg then we are not legal and if we use the figure of 2800kg then we only have about 300kg to play with which doesn't seem very much.

Sorry if I am being dense but want to have it totally clear in my own mind before I tell my boss her car isn't man enough for the job!!
		
Click to expand...

The axle weights have nothing to do with the towing weights

The car cannot have a load of 2300 but can be loaded to a max of 2300
2300 being the weight of the car and its load

If there is no towing capacity listed for a vehicle which is quite common then the GVW and GTW are the only weights to go with

With the trailer actually weighing 2505 and the vehicle loaded to the max of 2300 is only a total of 4805 so well within the GTW of 5100 or 5380
If the vehicle actually weighs 2100 when loaded then the trailer can actually weigh 3000 (2100+3000=5100) but for many set ups having the trailer a lot heavier than the vehicle can cause safety issues 

So to conclude - using the 5100 GTW
With no restrictions on a listed towing capacity you can have the vehicle actually weighing 2300 and a trailer actually weighing 2800

NOTE - the GVW of the vehicle 2300 plus the MAM of the trailer 3500 does NOT have to add up to 5100 or less - the 5100 is the max actual weight of the combination - just in case anyone was wondering ...


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## ROG (7 February 2012)

If the towing capacity limit is listed at 2300 then 1100+1400=2500 so no good for that vehicle


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## Lucyad (7 February 2012)

Is that right that you can still tow with a supervisory passenger who has passed pre 1997, but has not taken any tests?  I thought that had changed, so have been avoiding towing as a result (still ned to get round to doing my test!).  

Car is Range Rover P38 
Trailer is Ifor Williams HB 510
1 huge horse at 700kg+, 1 tiny pony.

I passed my test post 1997 (1999 I think).

If it is a different result when only towing the tiny pony, this would also be of interest for ponyclub.


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## Farma (7 February 2012)

Hi rog, could you give me an opinion on the following set up please, I have passed b+e.
Car is a Mercedes c180
Towing capacity of car 1800 kg
Trailer weight 820
Horse 500 max
vehicle kerb weight 1705
Gvw of car 2010

Is this all legal and feasible?


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## ROG (7 February 2012)

Lucyad said:



			Is that right that you can still tow with a supervisory passenger who has passed pre 1997, but has not taken any tests?  I thought that had changed, so have been avoiding towing as a result (still ned to get round to doing my test!).  

Car is Range Rover P38 
Trailer is Ifor Williams HB 510
1 huge horse at 700kg+, 1 tiny pony.

I passed my test post 1997 (1999 I think).

If it is a different result when only towing the tiny pony, this would also be of interest for ponyclub.
		
Click to expand...

YES - a pre 97 can still supervise - the April 2010 law changes were for vocational categories C1 C1+E D1 D1+E

The 510 has a MAM of 2584 and is 1000 unladen so will not be ok for towing on a B licence even if the trailer is empty


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## ROG (7 February 2012)

Farma said:



			Hi rog, could you give me an opinion on the following set up please, I have passed b+e.
Car is a Mercedes c180
Towing capacity of car 1800 kg
Trailer weight 820
Horse 500 max
vehicle kerb weight 1705
Gvw of car 2010

Is this all legal and feasible?
		
Click to expand...

*Legal for B+E* providing trailer has a MAM of at least 1320 - most do

820+500=1320 so well with the 1800 towing capacity


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## Farma (7 February 2012)

ROG said:



*Legal for B+E* providing trailer has a MAM of at least 1320 - most do

820+500=1320 so well with the 1800 towing capacity
		
Click to expand...

Marvellous! thanks for replying so quickly, seems a bit weird to tow with a car and so have been a bit worried, but if it all the numbers add up, should be fine


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## Lucyad (7 February 2012)

ROG said:



			YES - a pre 97 can still supervise - the April 2010 law changes were for vocational categories C1 C1+E D1 D1+E

The 510 has a MAM of 2584 and is 1000 unladen so will not be ok for towing on a B licence even if the trailer is empty
		
Click to expand...

Marvellous! (I didn't really think I could get away with towing alone until I pass test, even with tiny pony). Thank you so much!  

Can you point me in direction of any stuff on this on line that I can show to my troublesome OH, who has currently banned me from towing with pre 1997 passenger, as he is conviced that I will be banned for lifetime if caught?  There was so much in the press around April suggesting otherwise (and it is hard to practice for trailer test if you aren't allowed out at all!).  What is the category I am in, and what are the C1 C1+E D1 D1+E categories in laymens terms?

*Scuttles off to plan outings with friendly old co-pilot*


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## ROG (7 February 2012)

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Drivingforaliving/Drivinglorriesbusesandcoaches/DG_182840

That link shows the changes that occured in 2010

There is no change in the B+E supervising laws so there is no link that states that

Laws are made or ammended when things change that do not allow someone to do something

Where there is no law preventing it then it can be done


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## jodie3 (7 February 2012)

Thank you Rog.


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## catembi (8 February 2012)

Would appreciate some help...

We picked up an older double Rice a while ago & my Landcruiser (3.4 litre v6 petrol) was struggling to tow it empty.  Have now jacked up each side of the trailer & the front wheel on the nearside when spun only does 3 or 4 revolutions before stopping.  I was planning on greasing all the wheels, but is there anything else I should be thinking about doing or looking at?

Sorry, a bit OT but was hoping that someone on here might have some ideas.  Might post in NL too.

Thank you

T x


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## ROG (8 February 2012)

catembi said:



			Would appreciate some help...

We picked up an older double Rice a while ago & my Landcruiser (3.4 litre v6 petrol) was struggling to tow it empty.  Have now jacked up each side of the trailer & the front wheel on the nearside when spun only does 3 or 4 revolutions before stopping.  I was planning on greasing all the wheels, but is there anything else I should be thinking about doing or looking at?

Sorry, a bit OT but was hoping that someone on here might have some ideas.  Might post in NL too.

Thank you

T x
		
Click to expand...

You need a mechanic for this - me not one
Perhaps a new thread in NL is the best idea - oh. I see you have 
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=514390


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## diamondrockharvey (8 February 2012)

Hi Rog,

please may you help me 

1 - B license but taking test for B+E in a few weeks
2 - 1495
3 - 2040
4 - 1800
5 - 2700
6 - 1000

I am hoping to be able to borrow a friend's trailer and tow it with my 500kg horse when I pass my towing test but not sure it is going to be legal, I think I might have to invest in a lighter weight trailer!

Thanks in advance!


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## ROG (8 February 2012)

diamondrockharvey said:



			Hi Rog,

please may you help me 

1 - B license but taking test for B+E in a few weeks
2 - 1495 U/W or KERB
3 - 2040 GVW
4 - 1800 TOWING CAPACITY
5 - 2700 MAM
6 - 1000 UNLADEN

I am hoping to be able to borrow a friend's trailer and tow it with my 500kg horse when I pass my towing test but not sure it is going to be legal, I think I might have to invest in a lighter weight trailer!

Thanks in advance!
		
Click to expand...

*ILLEGAL on a B licence*

Reasons -
2040+2700=4740 well over 3500 limit
2700 is more than 1495

On a B+E licence or supervised provisional then it will be legal as long as no more than 800 is loaded into the trailer because 1000+800=1800 which is the max towing capacity

USING A LIGHTWEIGHT TRAILER.........
http://www.cheval-liberte.co.uk/products_trailers_1000_series.htm
The xl with a MAM of 1400 and unladen weight of 655 would be legal for B licence towing and can carry a weight of 745


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## diamondrockharvey (8 February 2012)

Thank you so much for your help!
I am doing my test soon anyways, but good to know my car will tow the trailer and my horse! Thank you!


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## Millie's Mum (10 February 2012)

Hi I get very confused about all of this! Any help would be gratefully received!

My car is a 56 plate Kia Sorento 2.5 manual diesel. I think therefore the following details are correct for it:

Towing capacity of car: 2800kg
Vehicle kerb weight: 2056kg
GVW of car: ??

My trailer is a Thoroughbred trailer. Not many of them about. It has been on the weigh bridge and is 900kg. There is no plate. Therefore:

Trailer weight: 900kg
Horse: 450kg
Licence: I passed after 1997.


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## ROG (10 February 2012)

Millie's Mum said:



			My car is a 56 plate Kia Sorenta 2.5 manual diesel. I think therefore the following details are correct for it:

Towing capacity of car: 2800kg
Vehicle kerb weight: 2056kg
GVW of car: ??

My trailer is a Thoroughbred trailer. Not many of them about. It has been on the weigh bridge and is 900kg. There is no plate. Therefore:

Trailer weight: 900kg
Horse: 450kg
Licence: I passed after 1997.
		
Click to expand...

OK Lets start with what we can find ...
B licence - with B+E provisional
http://www.carsplusplus.com/specs2011/kia_sorento_25_crdi_lx.php
*CAR*
Unladen 2056
GVW 2600
Towing capacity 2800
*TRAILER*
Unladen 900
MAM - need TYRE LOAD RATINGS

*ILLEGAL on a B licence*
reason
A GVW of 2600 only leaves a MAX trailer MAM of 900 and it already weighs that empty !!

You can have a supervising driver if you use your B+E provisional along with the usual rules that surround doing that


----------



## Millie's Mum (10 February 2012)

Thanks for info.

My understanding was that I could drive up to a combined weight of 3.5 tonne. Is this wrong then?

It is all so confusing!


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## ROG (10 February 2012)

Millie's Mum said:



			Thanks for info.

My understanding was that I could drive up to a combined weight of 3.5 tonne. Is this wrong then?

It is all so confusing!
		
Click to expand...

The combined weight of 3500 is the GVW of the vehicle which in this case is 2600 plus the plated MAM or tyre load ratings total of the trailer

You already have 2600 so that leaves 900 - that 900 is the maximum weight the trailer can be when loaded to its maximum

Has that explained it ok?


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## Millie's Mum (10 February 2012)

Thank you, yes that makes sense. I thought that it was the unladen weight that was taken into consideration so 2065 (car) + 900 (trailer) + 450 (horse) = 3415.

Also, is it the case then that the car/trailer/horse combination is legal, it is just my licence that is the issue?


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## ROG (10 February 2012)

Millie's Mum said:



			Thank you, yes that makes sense. I thought that it was the unladen weight that was taken into consideration so 2065 (car) + 900 (trailer) + 450 (horse) = 3415.

Also, is it the case then that the car/trailer/horse combination is legal, it is just my licence that is the issue?
		
Click to expand...

It is the licence which is the main issue

HOWEVER I can say this ...
With that vehicle the trailer cannot have an actual weight of more than 2800 because that is the towing capacity limit
The tyre load ratings need looking at to make sure that the 900 plus the 450 of the horse is not exceeding their limit - I doubt they are but its worth checking


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## waterlily (11 February 2012)

Hi,
Im getting a bit confused at the moment looking at cars able to tow my Bateson Deauville (1998 model)
The trailer plate says gross weight 2300kg

I've done my B+E test 

I only have 1 horse but would like to be able to take 2 if needed (so say a fairly generous 600kg/horse)

What weight would I need the car to be able to tow?
I've been looking at Mitsubishi Shogun Sports which have a 2800kg towing capacity. Does this mean that the weight of the trailer and its contents can be up to 2800kg?...but because the trailer GW is 2300kg is that the max it can take?

Do I have a limit on total weight with the B+E test for the car and trailer/contents combined or is this 7.5t?

Hope you can help, I think I'm getting more in a muddle the more I look at it all


----------



## ROG (11 February 2012)

waterlily said:



			Hi,
Im getting a bit confused at the moment looking at cars able to tow my Bateson Deauville (1998 model)
The trailer plate says gross weight 2300kg

I've done my B+E test 

I only have 1 horse but would like to be able to take 2 if needed (so say a fairly generous 600kg/horse)

What weight would I need the car to be able to tow?
I've been looking at Mitsubishi Shogun Sports which have a 2800kg towing capacity. Does this mean that the weight of the trailer and its contents can be up to 2800kg?...but because the trailer GW is 2300kg is that the max it can take?

Do I have a limit on total weight with the B+E test for the car and trailer/contents combined or is this 7.5t?

Hope you can help, I think I'm getting more in a muddle the more I look at it all
		
Click to expand...

With a B+E licence the max vehicle weight can be 3500 GVW and the max trailer weight can be 3500 MAM

You must not exceed the trailer MAM 2300 or the towing capacity 2800 so the lower figure is the one to go by which in this case is the 2300

Your horse weighs 600 so the empty trailer cannot weigh more than 1700 which is so very unlikely as most tend to weigh between 655 and 1100

In the future you might get a trailer with a MAM of 3500 and in that case the max it can actually weigh (empty trailer plus load) is 2800

Has that helped?


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## waterlily (11 February 2012)

Yes that's great thanks, so basically whatever car I get (still a bit undecided) needs to have a towing weight of 2300kg minimum to be able to tow the max my trailer is capable of.
Gives me a bit more choice as I was just going for the highest weight I could find!
Thank you for the quick reply, very grateful


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## ROG (11 February 2012)

waterlily said:



			so basically whatever car I get (still a bit undecided) needs to have a towing weight of 2300kg minimum to be able to tow the max my trailer is capable of.
		
Click to expand...

You got it


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## coss (11 February 2012)

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Horsebox Guide low res.pdf << does page 18 put a different spin on things?
ie.. its not the potential max weight but the actual weight?

On another note - out of interest as i can't afford a horsebox right now anyway...
Are there any horseboxes that can be towed with a honda CR-V 2005 model.Have read in some places that the towing capacity is 1500lb (~680kg) and 1500kg (3300lb) elsewhere... i believe that is unbraked and braked trailers though. Would a single horsebox be able to be towed. And would it require the B+E category?


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## ROG (12 February 2012)

coss said:



http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Horsebox Guide low res.pdf << does page 18 put a different spin on things?
ie.. its not the potential max weight but the actual weight?

On another note - out of interest as i can't afford a horsebox right now anyway...
Are there any horseboxes that can be towed with a honda CR-V 2005 model.Have read in some places that the towing capacity is 1500lb (~680kg) and 1500kg (3300lb) elsewhere... i believe that is unbraked and braked trailers though. Would a single horsebox be able to be towed. And would it require the B+E category?
		
Click to expand...

That PDF link is a good find and says exactly what I did.

Honda CRV - http://www.honda.co.uk/cars/cr-v/fullspecification/
If that is the correct model then these are the specs - 
KERB 1643 so unladen would be a little higher but not by much
GVW 2050
Towing capacity 1500

You can tow a trailer on a B licence providing the trailer is not plated at more than 1450 (1450+2050=3500)

The cheval xl trailer is plated at 1400 with an unladen weight of 655 so you can load 745 into it
OR
The IFOR HB401 trailer can be downplated from 1600 to 1450 and it has an unladen weight of 770 so 680 can be loaded into it


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## coss (12 February 2012)

thank you


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## becca1305 (15 February 2012)

Any horse box law/road experts on here?

What exactly is the law regarding travelling passengers in the living area of a horse box? I found this :

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/travelling-in-horseboxes.pdf

but it claims to be an interpretation of the law. Are there any others? 

Very confused, would just like to know if its legal or not! Thanks


----------



## ROG (15 February 2012)

becca1305 said:



			Any horse box law/road experts on here?

What exactly is the law regarding travelling passengers in the living area of a horse box? I found this :

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/travelling-in-horseboxes.pdf

but it claims to be an interpretation of the law. Are there any others? 

Very confused, would just like to know if its legal or not! Thanks 

Click to expand...

From that link - 

_Some larger coachbuilt horseboxes have a separate accommodation area. Although it is not specifically illegal to travel in this accommodation area, you should bear in mind that this area would not have been specifically designed for use when travelling and Regulation 100 of the Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986 No. 1078) may apply. In summary, this regulation requires that:
a motor vehicle, and all its parts and accessories;
the number of passengers carried, and the manner in which any passengers are carried in or on a vehicle; and
the weight, distribution, packing and adjustment of the load of a vehicle,
to be at all times such that no danger is caused, or is likely to be caused, to any person in or on a vehicle or on a road._

That means each case will be taken on its own merits

For a definitive on one then take it to the nearest VOSA station and let them decide and get their decision in writing


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## ultimateimages (20 February 2012)

something a little different - how do the event photographers (like me) stand when pulling their exhibition trailers ?

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

Licence (pre 97) BE
2) unladen weight of vehicle - 2073
3) not sure
4) tow capacity - 2800kg
5) Plated weight 2700
6) ex works weight 1500

do i need to visit a weighbridge and keep that with me


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## ROG (20 February 2012)

ultimateimages said:



			something a little different - how do the event photographers (like me) stand when pulling their exhibition trailers ?

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

Licence (pre 97) BE
2) unladen weight of vehicle - 2073
3) not sure
4) tow capacity - 2800kg
5) Plated weight 2700
6) ex works weight 1500

do i need to visit a weighbridge and keep that with me
		
Click to expand...

The fact that is an exhibition trailer or not makes no difference to the plated MAM but may do to the unladen weight if constructed as non removable panels etc

As you have a B+E licence then we need not be concerned with the B towing rules

That means if the trailer when put on a weighbridge does not actually weigh more than 2700 then it will be legal but you must also make sure it and the towing vehicle do not weigh more than any GTW (gross train weight) if there is one listed for your vehicle

An actual weight of 2700 is well within the actual weight towing capacity for your vehicle of 2800 so thats ok


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## ultimateimages (20 February 2012)

ROG said:



			The fact that is an exhibition trailer or not makes no difference to the plated MAM but may do to the unladen weight if constructed as non removable panels etc

As you have a B+E licence then we need not be concerned with the B towing rules

That means if the trailer when put on a weighbridge does not actually weigh more than 2700 then it will be legal but you must also make sure it and the towing vehicle do not weigh more than any GTW (gross train weight) if there is one listed for your vehicle

An actual weight of 2700 is well within the actual weight towing capacity for your vehicle of 2800 so thats ok
		
Click to expand...

Many thanks, much appreciated confirmed what i thought, and before the season starts then a trip to the weighbridge is in order just to make sure.

I had heard rumours that the new eu directives would trip me up esp with regards tacho and O license, but couldnt find anything definitive.   day job is sitting in the office processing pics, little or no driving done (with the exception of going to the yard)


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## ROG (20 February 2012)

ultimateimages said:



			I had heard rumours that the new eu directives would trip me up esp with regards tacho and O license, but couldnt find anything definitive.
		
Click to expand...

Now we get onto a different aspect to which I only have partial knowledge of

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing ..... but I'll try to help

From what I can accertain, if you are using this trailer for business/commercial purposes and the total GVW/MAM add up to more than 3500, which in your case they do, then you come into tacho and O licence regs

So the question - is this a business/commercial venture?


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## ultimateimages (20 February 2012)

guess that comes down to the definition of commercial/business. the trailer itself doesn't carry any stock for sale, but without it i would struggle to sell the images.

the tow vehicle carries the stock / revenue generated


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## ROG (20 February 2012)

ultimateimages said:



			guess that comes down to the definition of commercial/business. the trailer itself doesn't carry any stock for sale, but without it i would struggle to sell the images.

the tow vehicle carries the stock / revenue generated
		
Click to expand...

That would be a business commercial venture using that set up

The trailer is your advertising platform for the stock you sell for profit

I assume you go further than 50 km ??
EU REGS ARTICLE 13 exemptions from tacho regs
*(d) vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7,5 tonnes used:

 for carrying materials, equipment or machinery for
the driver's use in the course of his work.

These vehicles shall be used only within a 50 kilometre
radius from the base of the undertaking, and on
condition that driving the vehicles does not constitute
the driver's main activity;*

I think you will need to have a tacho fitted, conform to the EU driver regs and need an O licence
If so, then if you do a mon to fri job you will only be able to use that set up one day every other weekend

As I previously stated - I am not the expert on this


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## perfect11s (20 February 2012)

ultimateimages said:



			guess that comes down to the definition of commercial/business. the trailer itself doesn't carry any stock for sale, but without it i would struggle to sell the images.

the tow vehicle carries the stock / revenue generated
		
Click to expand...

 I would think you dont need an o licence but may need a tachograph , best bet is a van under 3.5 gross instead of your trailer then non of this applies...


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## ultimateimages (20 February 2012)

Again many thanks for taking the time to dig into this 

yep more than 50km - i think home to Dauntsey/hartpury/barbury is around 130miles.....

1 day every other weekend.....

well it typically travels on a friday, and then back on a sunday, most is 2 hrs each way.

But i am out EVERY weekend, in April i'm doing Goring 31st/1st April, Larkhill 7/8th, Ascot u wychwood 14/15th, Hambledon 19/20/21st, MK 24/25th.

think that works out to more than 1 every other weekend, but i would be well under on actual driving hours as i work from home during the week.


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## ROG (20 February 2012)

ultimateimages said:



			Again many thanks for taking the time to dig into this 

yep more than 50km - i think home to Dauntsey/hartpury/barbury is around 130miles.....

1 day every other weekend.....

well it typically travels on a friday, and then back on a sunday, most is 2 hrs each way.

But i am out EVERY weekend, in April i'm doing Goring 31st/1st April, Larkhill 7/8th, Ascot u wychwood 14/15th, Hambledon 19/20/21st, MK 24/25th.

think that works out to more than 1 every other weekend, but i would be well under on actual driving hours as i work from home during the week.
		
Click to expand...

If you can get in a full unbroken 45 hours without DRIVING OR WORKING then fine but from what you said you will be working/selling when set up on site !!


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## ultimateimages (20 February 2012)

ROG said:



			If you can get in a full unbroken 45 hours without DRIVING OR WORKING then fine but from what you said you will be working/selling when set up on site !!
		
Click to expand...

well that would put a spanner in the works then

with no easy solution


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## ROG (20 February 2012)

ultimateimages said:



			well that would put a spanner in the works then

with no easy solution
		
Click to expand...

Do you go to these events on your own?


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## ultimateimages (20 February 2012)

essentially yes, the other staff (photographers and sales) turn up on the day, i go the day before and setup, test, check walk courses etc


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## ROG (21 February 2012)

ultimateimages said:



			essentially yes, the other staff (photographers and sales) turn up on the day, i go the day before and setup, test, check walk courses etc
		
Click to expand...

I was hoping that someone would be in the vehicle when you were driving to and from the venue so an alternative could be found but it seems not


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## imafluffybunny (22 February 2012)

Can I confirm that it is ok to drive a 4x4 with horsebox on a B licence as long as you have someone with the B+E licence in the passenger seat? My insurance company are happy that I am covered providing that I am driving under the provisional licence legally. 
Can I carry a horse under the provisional licence? 
I did sit my B+E test a few years ago, got 2 minors and completely messed up the reverse as I panicked, been too scared to sit it again!!!!


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## ultimateimages (22 February 2012)

ROG said:



			I was hoping that someone would be in the vehicle when you were driving to and from the venue so an alternative could be found but it seems not
		
Click to expand...

i may have found a solution in te o license regs

in that an o license is not requited if towing with a "dual purpose" vehicle 

and another one that states 
vehicles constructed or adapted for carrying passenges and their effects (any trailer) and being used for that purpose.

this last one might not fit if i'm driving alone, but i'm happy that the first exemption fits the bill.

Interestingly i was at the Berkshire college of agriculture yesterday for the National Pony Society(NPS) equine careers day , giving a presentation on equine photography, and they had a MP there who was a former chairperson of the NPS, so i bent her ear about this and how darn difficult the eu regs are making all this, and why cant there be a simple exception for self employed or SME.  She has promised to take this up the the transport minister and get back to me....i wont hold my breath


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## ROG (22 February 2012)

imafluffybunny said:



			Can I confirm that it is ok to drive a 4x4 with horsebox on a B licence as long as you have someone with the B+E licence in the passenger seat? My insurance company are happy that I am covered providing that I am driving under the provisional licence legally. 
Can I carry a horse under the provisional licence? 
I did sit my B+E test a few years ago, got 2 minors and completely messed up the reverse as I panicked, been too scared to sit it again!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Supervised = yes - must have held B+E for 3+ years and be over age 21 - pre 97 drivers are ok to do this

You can tow loaded when under supervision


----------



## ROG (22 February 2012)

ultimateimages said:



			i may have found a solution in te o license regs

in that an o license is not requited if towing with a "dual purpose" vehicle 

and another one that states 
vehicles constructed or adapted for carrying passenges and their effects (any trailer) and being used for that purpose.

this last one might not fit if i'm driving alone, but i'm happy that the first exemption fits the bill.

Interestingly i was at the Berkshire college of agriculture yesterday for the National Pony Society(NPS) equine careers day , giving a presentation on equine photography, and they had a MP there who was a former chairperson of the NPS, so i bent her ear about this and how darn difficult the eu regs are making all this, and why cant there be a simple exception for self employed or SME.  She has promised to take this up the the transport minister and get back to me....i wont hold my breath
		
Click to expand...

MPs in the UK cannot change EU parliament laws - they would need a majority of all MEPs in the EU parliament so asking a UK MP to take that on is a waste of time

There are various exemptions in the O licence regs so I would suggest that you find someone who knows the current regs inside out - perhaps a call or visit to your local VOSA test station .....


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## ultimateimages (22 February 2012)

Many thanks , a slight misunderstanding on what i was asking of her, 

we discussed the regs, and agreed that it would in all likelihood catch people who were never intended to be caught, what i was asking for was clearer, more easily understandable information that could be downloaded and printed.  she did infer that member states can set their own exceptions, byt again clarity on this was lacking.

always helps to have a friendly ear of someone in the right places i feel


----------



## ROG (22 February 2012)

ultimateimages said:



			Many thanks , a slight misunderstanding on what i was asking of her, 

we discussed the regs, and agreed that it would in all likelihood catch people who were never intended to be caught, what i was asking for was clearer, more easily understandable information that could be downloaded and printed.  she did infer that member states can set their own exceptions, byt again clarity on this was lacking.

always helps to have a friendly ear of someone in the right places i feel
		
Click to expand...

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2006:102:0001:0013:EN:PDF
check articles 3 and 13 for exemptions

https://online.businesslink.gov.uk/Transport_Theme_files/Goods_vehicles_tachograph_hours_0511.pdf
That is the VOSA guide which is put in slighly simpler terms


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## ROG (22 February 2012)

*This 4X4 and trailer set up is legal for B licence towing*

2005 SUZUKI GRAND VITARA DIESEL ESTATE 2.0 TD SE 3DR TD 4X4
Kerb 1450 - _UNLADEN would be around 1500_
GVW 1850
Towing capacity 1600

IFOR WILLIAMS HB401 SINGLE HORSE TRAILER
Unladen 770
MAM 1600 - _DOWNPLATED TO 1500_
LOAD capacity 730

It might be useful to some.........


----------



## perfect11s (22 February 2012)

ultimateimages said:



			Many thanks , a slight misunderstanding on what i was asking of her, 

we discussed the regs, and agreed that it would in all likelihood catch people who were never intended to be caught, what i was asking for was clearer, more easily understandable information that could be downloaded and printed.  she did infer that member states can set their own exceptions, byt again clarity on this was lacking.

always helps to have a friendly ear of someone in the right places i feel
		
Click to expand...

 Best bet is to ask for a referendum on EU membership  we would all be a lot better off!!!


----------



## taranana (23 February 2012)

ROG said:



*This 4X4 and trailer set up is legal for B licence towing*

2005 SUZUKI GRAND VITARA DIESEL ESTATE 2.0 TD SE 3DR TD 4X4
Kerb 1450 - _UNLADEN would be around 1500_
GVW 1850
Towing capacity 1600

IFOR WILLIAMS HB401 SINGLE HORSE TRAILER
Unladen 770
MAM 1600 - _DOWNPLATED TO 1500_
LOAD capacity 730

It might be useful to some.........
		
Click to expand...

Hi ROG 

I have waded through a lot of this post and this last bit caught my eye.  I am currently looking to buy a towing vehicle - I do like the Vitara - and trailer so would the above Vitara tow an HB505/510 and 560 kg 16 hh horse.  I passed my test in 1983 so believe I don't need to take another one.  Is this correct?

Thanks


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## ROG (24 February 2012)

taranana said:



			Hi ROG 

I have waded through a lot of this post and this last bit caught my eye.  I am currently looking to buy a towing vehicle - I do like the Vitara - and trailer so would the above Vitara tow an HB505/510 and 560 kg 16 hh horse.  I passed my test in 1983 so believe I don't need to take another one.  Is this correct?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Licence = no worries as you have B+E 

Going to be a bit close on weights with the HB510
The towing capacity is 1600 on the model I used

HB505
Unladen 905
MAM 2340
LOAD/horse 560
560+905=1465 so well within 1600 

HB510
Unladen 1000
MAM 2584
LOAD/horse 560
560+1000=1560 so only just within the 1600  thats close


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## ROG (24 February 2012)

*Good info from another post on this site*


Angelz said:



http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_vehicles.htm

I found this helpful.  Just put in the trailer model and horse weight and it gives you a list 

Click to expand...


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## taranana (24 February 2012)

Thanks very much.  It would more than likely be a 505 anyway but good to know what the difference would be.


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## ROG (28 February 2012)

I came across this site which gives vehicle kerb weights and towing capacities
http://www.cuddles.abelgratis.net/kerbweights.htm
Not certain how accurate or up to date the info is on it but so far it seems ok


----------



## Blitzen (29 February 2012)

Further to my post in NL r.e B+E test, I'm considering either making adjustments to the trailer so I can tow it on a car licence, or just taking the test, and not being limited to only taking one horse out at a time (it would also mean I could get a 4x4, instead of trying to find a suitable towing car that won't struggle but will be the right weight!)

So.... Where would I even start? I live in mid Lincolnshire - are there any reputable driving schools/instructors in my area that do intensiive courses? I cannot for the life of me find my counterpart for my B licence (I'm going to conduct a thorough search at home and at my parents house!) - will I need it? Roughly how much should I budget for everything? 

Do I even know what I'm letting myself in for???


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## ROG (29 February 2012)

Laura-C said:



			Further to my post in NL r.e B+E test, I'm considering either making adjustments to the trailer so I can tow it on a car licence, or just taking the test, and not being limited to only taking one horse out at a time (it would also mean I could get a 4x4, instead of trying to find a suitable towing car that won't struggle but will be the right weight!)

So.... Where would I even start? I live in mid Lincolnshire - are there any reputable driving schools/instructors in my area that do intensiive courses? I cannot for the life of me find my counterpart for my B licence (I'm going to conduct a thorough search at home and at my parents house!) - will I need it? Roughly how much should I budget for everything? 

Do I even know what I'm letting myself in for???
		
Click to expand...

http://www.drivingschoolsinlouth.co.uk/page/b_e_trailer_towing
That's one - there are many others - google for B+E DRIVER TRAINING LINCOLNSHIRE


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## Achinghips (4 March 2012)

Hi hopefully someone can help me.
is there anything man enough to tow this weight legally?

Ifor Williams 511 with 16hh half shire/half Irish full up cob gelding and 15hh Irish cob mare?

My guess is that horse 1 weighs three quarters of a tonne and horse 2 half a tonne

Is there anything beast enough for the job please that'll have an 85% kerb weight for pulling approx 2300kg or will it only be a lorry?

Thanks


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## ROG (4 March 2012)

Achinghips said:



			Hi hopefully someone can help me.
is there anything man enough to tow this weight legally?

Ifor Williams 511 with 16hh half shire/half Irish full up cob gelding and 15hh Irish cob mare?

My guess is that horse 1 weighs three quarters of a tonne and horse 2 half a tonne

Is there anything beast enough for the job please that'll have an 85% kerb weight for pulling approx 2300kg or will it only be a lorry?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

The 85% thing is for caravans and not other types of trailers

HB511 specifications
Unladen = 1000 kgs
MAM = 2700 kgs

Total of horses = 1250 kgs approx

Total to be towed including a few extras probably about 2500

There are vehicles on the market that can tow 3500 so finding one to tow 2500 should be quite easy

http://www.cuddles.abelgratis.net/kerbweights.htm
Have a look through that link above - select a vehicle and then see what its capable of towing

This site is even better - put in the weight you wish to tow and it comes up with a list of vehicles capable of towing that weight 
http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_vehicles.htm
Have fun!!


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## Achinghips (4 March 2012)

ROG said:



			The 85% thing is for caravans and not other types of trailers

HB511 specifications
Unladen = 1000 kgs
MAM = 2700 kgs

Total of horses = 1250 kgs approx

Total to be towed including a few extras probably about 2500

There are vehicles on the market that can tow 3500 so finding one to tow 2500 should be quite easy

http://www.cuddles.abelgratis.net/kerbweights.htm
Have a look through that link above - select a vehicle and then see what its capable of towing

This site is even better - put in the weight you wish to tow and it comes up with a list of vehicles capable of towing that weight 
http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_vehicles.htm
Have fun!!
		
Click to expand...

Yeeha!!!!!!!! Quashed hubbys argument.  Stay off the M11 everyone! I'm off out with the chequebook!


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## Ladydragon (4 March 2012)

I'm not sure if there's an 'easy' answer to this query as I've completely lost track of the changes in licensing regarding towing etc, vehicle size/weight etc...

I passed my driving test in 1987 - at the time, purely so I could stay on the road with my motorbike...   Paper license has gone walkies so I've got an application in for a the new version but I can't view the classifications on my license...

I know I used to legally tow a caravan and could drive a van up to a certain size and so on...  Now I need to think about car/horse trailer/horse box combinations and just wondered if anyone can tell me off the top of their head what, if any, restrictions I should know about that have come into force more recently if they are going to apply to me?

Thank you...


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## ROG (4 March 2012)

Ladydragon said:



			I'm not sure if there's an 'easy' answer to this query as I've completely lost track of the changes in licensing regarding towing etc, vehicle size/weight etc...

I passed my driving test in 1987 - at the time, purely so I could stay on the road with my motorbike...   Paper license has gone walkies so I've got an application in for a the new version but I can't view the classifications on my license...

I know I used to legally tow a caravan and could drive a van up to a certain size and so on...  Now I need to think about car/horse trailer/horse box combinations and just wondered if anyone can tell me off the top of their head what, if any, restrictions I should know about that have come into force more recently if they are going to apply to me?

Thank you... 

Click to expand...

As a pre 1997 car licence holder your new photocard and paper licence will come back with these categoroies on the photocard bit -
not sure with M/C licences so will leave A alone but I can say for certain you will have .....
B
B+E
C1
C1+E restricted to 8.25 tonnes
D1 not for hire or reward
D1+E not for hire or reward

With regard to horseboxes of up to 7.5 tonnes or horsebox trailers up to 3500 kgs MAM - you are covered for those


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## Ladydragon (4 March 2012)

ROG said:



			As a pre 1997 car licence holder your new photocard and paper licence will come back with these categoroies on the photocard bit -
not sure with M/C licences so will leave A alone but I can say for certain you will have .....
B
B+E
C1
C1+E restricted to 8.25 tonnes
D1 not for hire or reward
D1+E not for hire or reward

With regard to horseboxes of up to 7.5 tonnes or horsebox trailers up to 3500 kgs MAM - you are covered for those
		
Click to expand...

That's very helpful...  Thank you ROG...  My m/c is/was A1 provisional under the car license pre the CBT changes - that bit I do know... 

I can get back to the horsebox v towing vehicle + trailer pondering with out any worries now...


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## Shearersgirl (6 March 2012)

Hi hoping someone can help me with this one:

1. B licence
2. 1502 kg
3. 2025kg
4. 1500kg
5. 1600kg
6. 767kg


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## ROG (7 March 2012)

Shearersgirl said:



			Hi hoping someone can help me with this one:

1. B licence
2. 1502 kg
3. 2025kg
4. 1500kg
5. 1600kg
6. 767kg
		
Click to expand...

*ILLEGAL as it stands* but is easily remedied 

Your trailer currently stands at 1600 and needs to be downplated to a maximum of 1475 (1475+2025=3500)

At 1475 you could still load 708 into the trailer

1475 would also then be under the 1502 vehicle unladen weight


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## ROG (7 March 2012)

Shearersgirl said:



			Hi
		
Click to expand...

Just realised it was your first post so WELCOME


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## Shearersgirl (7 March 2012)

ROG said:



*ILLEGAL as it stands* but is easily remedied 

Your trailer currently stands at 1600 and needs to be downplated to a maximum of 1475 (1475+2025=3500)

At 1475 you could still load 708 into the trailer

1475 would also then be under the 1502 vehicle unladen weight
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ROG, that's really helpful!


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## fiona_davidson (9 March 2012)

I have been told two different things about towing a car and trailer if you have a full HGV (rigid) licence. I thought I had to take a seperate test (I'm too young for grandfather rights), but have been told that wasn't the case??? Would love to hear what is correct?

Many thanks


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## ROG (9 March 2012)

fiona_davidson said:



			I have been told two different things about towing a car and trailer if you have a full HGV (rigid) licence. I thought I had to take a seperate test (I'm too young for grandfather rights), but have been told that wasn't the case??? Would love to hear what is correct?

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

Firstly, WELCOME

Apart from the restrictive B licence towing rules all other categories require a +E to tow anything over 750 kgs plated MAM weight

Having a B licence and then getting the LGV C (or C1) rigid licence does nothing to the B licence

Having a B licence and then getting C+E (or C1+E) will upgrade the B to B+E but that B+E upgrade will only remain as long as the medical for the C+E is valid
The C categories could be exchanged for D categories and the outcome for the B categories will be the same.

Passing the once in a lifetime B+E test for a one off financial outlay means that that B+E will remain valid for as long as the B licence remains valid so basically for life !!


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## Keltic (10 March 2012)

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

Hi ive copied the info from your original post as above. This is my info if you can help 

1 . BE
2. 1665
3. 2070
4. 2000
5. 1750
6. 820

Carrying 1 cob 450kg.

Thank you

____________________________

Weight: 1665 kg


Towing weight: 2000 kg 

Maximum weigth with load: 2070 kg


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## ROG (10 March 2012)

Keltic said:



			This is my info if you can help 

1 . BE
2. 1665
3. 2070
4. 2000
5. 1750
6. 820

Carrying 1 cob 450kg.
		
Click to expand...

If you do not load the trailer with more than 930kg then you will be legal
930+820=1750
With a fully loaded trailer you will be within the 2000 towing capacity so that is not an issue

I know you have a B+E licence but for those wondering if it could be towed on a B licence the answer is not as it stands but if the trailer was downplated to 1400 then it would be although that would reduce the load amount from 930kg to 580kg


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## Reindeer Rider (11 March 2012)

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "


1 - B (passed test pre 97)
2 - 1460kg
3 - 1870kg
4 - 1600kg
5 - 1600kg
6 - 767kg


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## ROG (11 March 2012)

roxysrider said:



			1 - B (passed test pre 97)
2 - 1460kg
3 - 1870kg
4 - 1600kg
5 - 1600kg
6 - 767kg
		
Click to expand...

*ILLEGAL on a B licence*
One reason - 
The 1600 MAM of the trailer is more than the 1460 unladen weight of the vehicle

To make this legal the trailer needs to be downplated to a maximum of 1460 which would leave a maximum load of 693 kgs

To those reading this -  
I know that might seem pedantic because the 1600+1870=3470 which is under the 3500 maximum and its only 140 kgs outside the rules for the reason I gave but consider this ..... if stopped or an incident occured then it could invalidate the insurance and the driver could be prosecuted for not driving with the correct licence


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## Reindeer Rider (11 March 2012)

thanks Rog, 

Is it legal on a B+E licence?


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## ROG (12 March 2012)

roxysrider said:



			thanks Rog, 

Is it legal on a B+E licence?
		
Click to expand...

YES


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## ROG (13 March 2012)

sophiebailey said:



			Hi everyone, need some help from trailer bofs! 

This is all hypothetical as I don't actually have a trailer yet, but want to work out if it's pointless buying one if I've nothing to tow it with. 

My dad has a Volkswagen Passat 2l Diesel 4motion estate car which he has said he will tow me in should I get a trailer. The type of trailer i'd be looking at would be an Ifor 505 or similar. My cob weighs around 400kg on a fat day. 

Can anyone do the maths for me? I've researched towing weights, kerb weights, percentages, engines etc all day and can't make sense of any of it and just can't seem to get my head around the maths so was hoping someone more worldly could offer some advice!! 

The one show i'm hoping to go to should we be ok to tow would be up a fair climb (for about 1 mile) and I'm wondering how well estate cars cope with inclines? 

Any/all advice/tips/experience welcome! Am looking into getting a 4x4 and doing my towing test when I turn 21 this August, this is in the interim. 

thanks xx
		
Click to expand...

ASSUMING THIS IS THE RIGHT PASSAT
Unladen 1350
GVW 1960
Towing 1700

If that is the right car then you can get a one horse trailer and tow it on a B licence
The IFOR WILLIAMS HB401 single horse trailer is 1600 MAM and 770 unladen
Easy to have that downplated to 1350 MAM and still allow for a load of 580 which is well over what you need for your 400 horse on a fat day!!

If Dad will always be in the car and he has a B+E licence then either he can drive it without it being downplated or you can as a B+E learner

I am assuming you have a B (car) driving licence ???

PS - a car designed to tow 1700 but actually towing a weight of about 1200 will cope very easily


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## sophiebailey (13 March 2012)

ROG said:



ASSUMING THIS IS THE RIGHT PASSAT
Unladen 1350
GVW 1960
Towing 1700

If that is the right car then you can get a one horse trailer and tow it on a B licence
The IFOR WILLIAMS HB401 single horse trailer is 1600 MAM and 770 unladen
Easy to have that downplated to 1500 MAM and still allow for a load of 730 which is well over what you need for your 400 horse on a fat day!!

If Dad will always be in the car and he has a B+E licence then either he can drive it without it being downplated or you can as a B+E learner

I am assuming you have a B (car) driving licence ???
		
Click to expand...

Excuse my ignorance, I really have no idea about cars/trailers. 

My dad has been driving since the 70's, so unsure as to which type of license he holds? I have a B license (passed in 2008). Here come the questions;

So is our car unable to tow a two horse trailer?

What is MAM and GVW?

Thank you, again please ignore my extreme stupidity!!


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## ROG (13 March 2012)

sophiebailey said:



			So is our car unable to tow a two horse trailer?

What is MAM and GVW?

Thank you, again please ignore my extreme stupidity!! 

Click to expand...

Firstly, the only stupid question is the one not asked but there are many stupid answers !!!

MAM and GVW are the same thing but the GVW refers to the max weight the car can be when fully loaded and the MAM refers to the max weight the trailer can be when fully loaded

GVW can be found on the internet like I did or on the car registered keeper V5 form, in the car handbook or on a plate fitted to the car ..... somewhere ...

MAM can be found on a plate stuck on the trailer

Towing capacity refers to the maximum ACTUAL (not MAM) weight the car can tow

Most two horse trailers weigh about 900/1000 unladen and have MAMs up to 3500 so as long as a car with a towing capacity of 1700 and a trailer weighing 1000 unladen is not loaded with more than 700 it will be legal on a B+E licence

Has that explained it ok for you? - if not don't be shy - say so and I will try another way of explaining

Remember it is not the person receiving info that is at fault but the person giving it who must be adaptable in the way they give it


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## sophiebailey (13 March 2012)

I think i've got it, from my calculations now, our car wouldn't be able to tow a two horse trailer as;

85% of our car's kerb weight is around 1300kg, so a 1tonne horse trailer and a 0.4 tonne bailey would put us over the safety zone? So would need to look for a single horse trailer to keep us safe?

Think I understand now .......


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## ROG (13 March 2012)

sophiebailey said:



			I think i've got it, from my calculations now, our car wouldn't be able to tow a two horse trailer as;

85% of our car's kerb weight is around 1300kg, so a 1tonne horse trailer and a 0.4 tonne bailey would put us over the safety zone? So would need to look for a single horse trailer to keep us safe?

Think I understand now ....... 

Click to expand...

WOOOH !!!
85% thing is for CARAVANS only and that is only advisory

Also the 85% caravan thing refers to the ACTUAL weight difference between the weight of the towing vehicle and the caravan - the unladen weight of the towing vehicle and the max weight of the caravan are only used as they are easy constants


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## sophiebailey (14 March 2012)

Okay great I follow you!!  thanks for the help, very much appreciated!


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## mymissmegan (16 March 2012)

Hi guys 
Sorry for yet another trailer question
I have a xtrail sve dci 2.2 diesel
On the chassis plate is in order of what's on it
2050
4050
1110
1185
Now, I passed my test six years ago roughly, so would need to take trailer test.
What I would like to know is which trailer I could tow legally without my trailer test.
Please help
Thank you x x x


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## ROG (16 March 2012)

mymissmegan said:



			Hi guys 
Sorry for yet another trailer question
I have a xtrail sve dci 2.2 diesel
On the chassis plate is in order of what's on it
2050
4050
1110
1185
Now, I passed my test six years ago roughly, so would need to take trailer test.
What I would like to know is which trailer I could tow legally without my trailer test.
Please help
Thank you x x x
		
Click to expand...

With a B licence
YOUR VEHICLE SPECS - I HOPE
Unladen = 1515
GVW = 2050
Towing capacity = 2000
First single horse trailer option IFOR HB401
Unladen = 770
MAM = 1600 BUT would need to be downplated to 1450 because 1450+2050=3500 which is the max allowed for B licence towing
That would allow a loading weight of 680 kgs
Cheval liberte single horse trailer
Unladen = 655
MAM = 1400
This could be used as it is and has a loading weight of 745


Those are just two options I know of but there may be more


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## mymissmegan (16 March 2012)

Thank you so much for your reply.
I'm really interested in the hb403.
What does downplated mean? And would iwt be able to do that?


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## ROG (16 March 2012)

mymissmegan said:



			Thank you so much for your reply.
I'm really interested in the hb403.
What does downplated mean? And would iwt be able to do that?
		
Click to expand...

HB 403 specs
Unladen = 767
MAM = 1600 but yet again would need downplating to 1450 leaving a loading weight of 683 kgs

Very easy to get a trailer downplated if the manufacturer is still trading like  IFOR WILLIAMS  - contact us who will sort it out for you by referring you to one of their agents - this may involve a small charge of £30 ish or may be FREE !!


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## mymissmegan (16 March 2012)

Brilliant!!! Thanks rog, and doing that downplating would mean I could drive my horse on my own?
Thanks again x


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## ROG (16 March 2012)

mymissmegan said:



			Brilliant!!! Thanks rog, and doing that downplating would mean I could drive my horse on my own?
		
Click to expand...

YES

B licence towing law/rules state that the MAM of the trailer (1450) must be no more than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle (1515) so that is complied with

It also states that the MAM of the trailer (1450) plus the GVW of the towing vehicle (2050) must not add up to more than 3500 so that is complied with

The towing capacity of the towing vehicle (2000) must not be exceeded but the most you should ever be towing legally is 1450 so that is complied with


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## mymissmegan (16 March 2012)

You are a diamond!! 
Thank you so much for your help x


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## Lucy_Ally (17 March 2012)

Hi - I am pretty sure that I need to take the B+E test with my combination (I passed in 1998), but thought I would check!

Car: 2003 Kia Sorento diesel auto
Trailer: 2011 Ifor Williams 511
Horse: ~580 kg

I only plan on taking the one horse and have removed partitions. Can I get the 511 down-rated? Would there be any point?

Thank you!


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## WelshTilly (17 March 2012)

Hi 

I'm in the process of sorting out my B +E test as I missed having it own my license by 1 month 

In the mean time I have a question, I have access to my Husbands Toyota Hilux 08 plate and my Ifor 505 2002 is there any possibility I can down rate the box in the interim to tow my mare 500kg by myself?? This would ease my situation in the mean time ....

Thank you in advance


----------



## ROG (17 March 2012)

WelshTilly said:



			Hi 

I'm in the process of sorting out my B +E test as I missed having it own my license by 1 month 

In the mean time I have a question, I have access to my Husbands Toyota Hilux 08 plate and my Ifor 505 2002 is there any possibility I can down rate the box in the interim to tow my mare 500kg by myself?? This would ease my situation in the mean time ....

Thank you in advance
		
Click to expand...

So many Hilux models with different specs that I need more info - perhaps you can get these figures from the handbook or the keepers V5 form
Unladen or kerb = .....kgs
GVW = ....kgs
Towing capacity = ....kgs

IFOR 505HB
unladen = 905 kgs
MAM = 2340 kgs


Once I have the specs for the hilux I can give you an answer


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## ROG (17 March 2012)

Lucy_Ally said:



			Hi - I am pretty sure that I need to take the B+E test with my combination (I passed in 1998), but thought I would check!

Car: 2003 Kia Sorento diesel auto
Trailer: 2011 Ifor Williams 511
Horse: ~580 kg

I only plan on taking the one horse and have removed partitions. Can I get the 511 down-rated? Would there be any point?

Thank you!
		
Click to expand...

Having probs getting correct specs for vehicle so please supply correct specs from handbook or keeper V5 form
Unladen or kerb = 2100 guess
GVW = 2600 guess
Towing capacity = 2800 guess

IFOR HB511
Unladen = 1000
MAM = 2700

If those specs are anywhere near correct then downplating would not help to conform to B licence towing rules because 2600 GVW plus the unladen trailer weight of 1000 already puts it over the max 3500 limit

Looks like a B+E test is needed........


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## ROG (17 March 2012)

WelshTilly said:



			I have access to my Husbands Toyota Hilux 08 plate
		
Click to expand...

FOUND THIS FOR HILUX
If the specs in that link are correct for your model then they all are about 3000 GVW which means a B licence holder can only tow 750 kgs behind it on a B licence and that would not even cover the empty weight of a horse trailer!!


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## Lucy_Ally (17 March 2012)

Thanks ROG - I thought so from my research, but wanted a second opinion. 
GVW is 2640kg, min kerb weight is 2065. Looks like I better get booked in for my test so I don't have to keep relying on my husband! 

Cheers
Lucy


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## ROG (17 March 2012)

Lucy_Ally said:



			Thanks ROG - I thought so from my research, but wanted a second opinion. 
GVW is 2640kg, min kerb weight is 2065. Looks like I better get booked in for my test so I don't have to keep relying on my husband! 

Cheers
Lucy
		
Click to expand...

2640 GVW only allows for a trailer with a max MAM of 860 on a B licence
BUT
There is nothing to stop you driving it as a B+E learner when hubby is in the car if he is over age 21 and has had B+E for 3+ years
L plates front of car and rear of trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Then off you go


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## Lisa2 (19 March 2012)

Hi

I am legal to tow my horse trailer and have passed my B + E test but wondered if my combination is safe enough as I keep getting told that it's not ideal or that I shouldn't be towing the trailer with this car and should get a bigger 4 x 4. It's making me paranoid about having an accident!

I have a 2008 Toyota Rav 4 2.2 D - GVW 2190, min kerb weight 1595, braked tow capacity 2000kg. I tow a Chevel Liberte 2003 XL double trailer with a MAM of 2000kg and unladen weight of 840. My 16.1 horse weighs 600kg (only ever travel the one) and I just have my tack, self, hay and water. My car copes fine towing but I wondered if you think I am pushing it a bit? I really don't want to have to change my car as it's economical and suits my daily needs but safety comes first. Do you think I would be best changing my car for something bigger? I am fed up of being made to feel like I am endangering my self, horse and others because I don't have a discovery!

Many thanks, Lisa


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## ROG (20 March 2012)

Lisa2 said:



			Hi

I am legal to tow my horse trailer and have passed my B + E test but wondered if my combination is safe enough as I keep getting told that it's not ideal or that I shouldn't be towing the trailer with this car and should get a bigger 4 x 4. It's making me paranoid about having an accident!

I have a 2008 Toyota Rav 4 2.2 D - GVW 2190, min kerb weight 1595, braked tow capacity 2000kg. I tow a Chevel Liberte 2003 XL double trailer with a MAM of 2000kg and unladen weight of 840. My 16.1 horse weighs 600kg (only ever travel the one) and I just have my tack, self, hay and water. My car copes fine towing but I wondered if you think I am pushing it a bit? I really don't want to have to change my car as it's economical and suits my daily needs but safety comes first. Do you think I would be best changing my car for something bigger? I am fed up of being made to feel like I am endangering my self, horse and others because I don't have a discovery!

Many thanks, Lisa
		
Click to expand...

You are towing an actual weight of about 1500+ with a vehicle that is designed to tow an actual weight of 2000
If the manufacturer that made that vehicle thought towing an actual weight of 2000 was not safe then that figure would be lower because they do not want to be sued by motorists

If you do not like the stability of the trailer then you can go for one up to 3500 MAM as long as when it is loaded the actual weight does not exceed 2000 kgs


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## ROG (20 March 2012)

Lisa2 said:



			I am legal to tow my horse trailer and have passed my B + E test
I have a 2008 Toyota Rav 4 2.2 D - GVW 2190, min kerb weight 1595, braked tow capacity 2000kg. I tow a Chevel Liberte 2003 XL double trailer with a MAM of 2000kg and unladen weight of 840. My 16.1 horse weighs 600kg
		
Click to expand...

This may be of interest to those with just a B licence .....

By changing the trailer to a Chevel Liberte 1003 XL and having it downplated from 1400 to 1300, the total weight being towed would be 655(trailer)+600(horse)+40(water etc?)=1295

Perfectly legal for B licence towing
2190+1300=3490 so under 3500 limit
1300 is less than 1595 so complies with that rule


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## ROG (21 March 2012)

Found this useful bit of info/*VIDEO* - 


OWLIE185 said:



			Take a look at this:
Horse Trailer Service with The Trailer Medic 

Click to expand...

Useful when checking out a trailer if intending to buy one


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## ROG (22 March 2012)

ROG said:



			YES

Passing C1 does not give you a '+E' which is the entitlement at the end of a category which gives you towing entitlement

That sentence is not strictly correct because there are allowances to tow with a B licence and all categories can tow a trailer of 750 kgs MAM

*If you pass the C1+E test then that will also give you B+E but only for as long as the medical remains current
If the medical, which you already have until age 45, is not kept current then you lose C1+E and B+E*

Passing the B+E test gives you B+E for as long as your B licence remains valid so generally for life

If you have C as well as C1 then you could go for the C+E test

NOTE: - for those now considering taking the C1 training &  test - forget it - take the C training & test instead as they both cost roughly the same and the age is now 18 for all LGV categories
Drivers with B licences can go direct for C and then C+E

18 year old artic drivers ..... Hmmmm .......
		
Click to expand...

*The bit in blue* was from information given by the DfT & DVLA but they have now said otherwise and on getting info from post 1997 cat B licence holders I find this new info to be correct

*I asked this question -
Driver passes B in 2000, C in 2004 & CE in 2005
What expiry date is shown for the BE gained by getting the CE?*


DVLA Email donotreply.contactcentre@dvla.gsi.gov.uk to me 

show details 09:22 (44 minutes ago) 

Dear Mr *****
Thank you for your email received on 21/3/12. Your email reference number is 880046.

I can confirm that the expiry date of the category BE will be the same as the category B. Both entitlements remain valid until the day before the licence holder's 70th birthday, and the dates for this will be shown on the reverse of the photocard. 

I am unable to release the exact dates via email for security reasons, but if you would like this confirmed then please contact our Customer Enquiry Unit on the number below:

Tel: 0300 790 6801
Opening Times:
Lines are open Monday to Friday 8.00am to 7.00pm and Saturday 8.00am to 2.00pm.


Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our Reply Form or copy and paste the following URL in to your browser:

https://emaildvla.direct.gov.uk/emaildvla/cegemail/directgov/en/reply_form_drivers.html


When filling in the form the email reference number 880046 will be required.

Regards

A Prichard

Customer Enquiries Group

DVLA


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## ROG (26 March 2012)

With the information given in the post above, for those who have passed the C1 (or C) LGV test but have not got B+E, the best way to get B+E would be to get C1+E (or C+E) to obtain a lifelong B+E.


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## ROG (28 March 2012)

HHO THREAD ON THE B+E TRAILER TOWING TEST
That might be useful to some on here


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## Cello_song (31 March 2012)

Hi There

I'm hoping you can settle a wee disagreement between my Dad and I! He thinks I am legal to tow this set up with L plates on and him, my mum or my husband sitting with me (all have pre 97 licenses). 

After reading some of this thread, I think he is wrong and that I am not legal - I think I need to have the trailer down plated and then I could drive with one of them babysitting me? 

Vehicle is a Hyundai Santa Fe 2.2 CRTD GSI towing a 505.  I think the problem is that 2 is less than 5?

1.	B
2.	1823 kg
3.	2550 kg
4.	2200 kg
5.	2340 kg
6.	905 kg

What do you think?


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## ROG (31 March 2012)

Cello_song said:



			Hi There

I'm hoping you can settle a wee disagreement between my Dad and I! He thinks I am legal to tow this set up with L plates on and him, my mum or my husband sitting with me (all have pre 97 licenses). 

After reading some of this thread, I think he is wrong and that I am not legal - I think I need to have the trailer down plated and then I could drive with one of them babysitting me? 

Vehicle is a Hyundai Santa Fe 2.2 CRTD GSI towing a 505.  I think the problem is that 2 is less than 5?

1.	B
2.	1823 kg
3.	2550 kg
4.	2200 kg
5.	2340 kg
6.	905 kg

What do you think?
		
Click to expand...

Time to eat humble pie 
That set up would never be legal for a B licence holder out on their own unless the trailer was downplated to 950 (950+2550=3500) and would leave a load of only 45kgs 

HOWEVER, you have a B+E provisional on the paper part of your licence so with a supervising driver aged 21+ (think your dad might be) and has held a B+E for over 3 years (dad might just have had it that long) with L plates fitted to front of vehicle and rear of trailer as well as correct insurance for a B+E learner (call the insurer) ...... YOU ARE LEGAL to tow it fully loaded

PS - as the towing capacity is 2200 but the trailer is plated at 2340 then make sure the actual weight is never more than 2200


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## Cello_song (31 March 2012)

Excellent, humble pie is good as it means the pony can go to shows! Just need to ring my insurance company on Mon... 

Thanks very much for your advice


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## ROG (31 March 2012)

Cello_song said:



			Excellent, humble pie is good as it means the pony can go to shows! Just need to ring my insurance company on Mon... 

Thanks very much for your advice 

Click to expand...

thats what this thread/sticky is all about

Suggest getting your B+E asap so you can go out on your own - it is only a one-off financial outlay and virtually lasts for life
In your case you will have lots of experience doing the real thing prior to a little DSA driving style training and test


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## zoon (5 April 2012)

I have just bought an old rice europa trailer (1993).  I have a B license, so until I sit my test, the other half will be towing (he has B+E).  We currently do not have a towing vehicle and are borrowing a terrano if we need to move it (trailer needs some work, so isn't going anywhere at the moment).  Can you tell me what all these numbers mean so I know what vehicle to look for when buying as want to make sure i get something legal to tow my trailer with, but also want the smallest most economical vehicle too!


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## ROG (5 April 2012)

zoon said:



			I have just bought an old rice europa trailer (1993).  I have a B license, so until I sit my test, the other half will be towing (he has B+E).  We currently do not have a towing vehicle and are borrowing a terrano if we need to move it (trailer needs some work, so isn't going anywhere at the moment).  Can you tell me what all these numbers mean so I know what vehicle to look for when buying as want to make sure i get something legal to tow my trailer with, but also want the smallest most economical vehicle too!
		
Click to expand...

With a B+E licence all you really need to look for is the towing capacity which should be in the handbook or if not got that then perhaps THIS SITE might be the easiest to use
Does not matter if the plated MAM of the trailer is more or less than the towing capacity because you just have to make sure it does not exceed the lower of those weights when loaded

You might be better to ask about what towing vehicle to buy as a seperate thread in the lounge forum as that will get many replies and to be honest I am not the best person to ask on that issue 

Why must OH drive when towing?
If OH is over age 21 and has had B+E for 3+ years then YOU can tow a B+E set up on your provisional which you have on the paper part of your licence
L plates on back of trailer and front of vehicle plus correct insurance and you are good to go


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## ROG (5 April 2012)

For fuel mpg figures


justjaz said:



			I find this site really useful:

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/

Hope it helps!
		
Click to expand...


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## zoon (5 April 2012)

Thanks - with such an old trailer how do I find out the MAM (and what does this mean?)?


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## ROG (5 April 2012)

zoon said:



			Thanks - with such an old trailer how do I find out the MAM (and what does this mean?)?
		
Click to expand...

The MAM (or GVW) is the maximum it can weigh when fully loaded

This can usually be found on a plate which is usually siler in colour attached to the trailer
If there is no plate then the tyre load ratings will be used to determine the MAM

If you have the exact model the maybe I can find the MAM on the internet


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## coss (5 April 2012)

ROG said:



			With a B+E licence all you really need to look for is the towing capacity which should be in the handbook or if not got that then perhaps THIS SITE might be the easiest to use
Does not matter if the plated MAM of the trailer is more or less than the towing capacity because you just have to make sure it does not exceed the lower of those weights when loaded

You might be better to ask about what towing vehicle to buy as a seperate thread in the lounge forum as that will get many replies and to be honest I am not the best person to ask on that issue 

Why must OH drive when towing?
If OH is over age 21 and has had B+E for 3+ years then YOU can tow a B+E set up on your provisional which you have on the paper part of your licence
L plates on back of trailer and front of vehicle plus correct insurance and you are good to go 

Click to expand...

re correct insurance - if you are the policy holder of your own car, do you have to let insurance know you plan to learn to tow with L plates on? ie, does that need extra insurance? Hoping a friend of mine (>21year with >3years as B+E) will be a passenger for me to tow in my own car.


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## ester (5 April 2012)

coss I'm a named driver on parents 4x4 (initially for learning to tow purposes only). Informed them that we would be doing that but they weren't really worried about it/didn't make premium any different.


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## fishy (5 April 2012)

Just wondered if you could help me, can I tow with my ford kuga?  
Its a 2008 2.0tdci AWD I believe it has a towing capacity of 2100kg.  I would be hoping to tow an Ifor Williams 505, is this possible? Passed my test before 97.  Many thanks


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## ROG (5 April 2012)

ester said:



			coss I'm a named driver on parents 4x4 (initially for learning to tow purposes only). Informed them that we would be doing that but they weren't really worried about it/didn't make premium any different.
		
Click to expand...

That seems to be the case for everyone I have spoken to on this issue

The insurers just like to be informed and its good practice to do so .... just in case


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## ROG (5 April 2012)

fishy said:



			Just wondered if you could help me, can I tow with my ford kuga?  
Its a 2008 2.0tdci AWD I believe it has a towing capacity of 2100kg.  I would be hoping to tow an Ifor Williams 505, is this possible? Passed my test before 97.  Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

You have a B+E so thats ok

2100 seems ok for the towing capacity - I just checked it on an internet site

IFOR HB505 is 905 unladen and 2340 MAM

Providing you do not load more than 1195 into the trailer then OK
905+1195=2100


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## ROG (11 April 2012)

smelly_horse said:



			Can an Audi s3 pull a lightish (Ifor/bates) trailer with a 400kg horse in. Car is a 1.8 turbo powered weighing around 1.6 ton. Have tried looking on internet but no good, thanks 

Click to expand...

http://www.usedcarexpert.co.uk/cars/audi/a3/specs-stats/dimensions/
http://www.horsetrailersales.co.uk/NewIforHB401.htm
Not knowing the exact A3 model is a bit hampering so I'll take a guess
Same with the Ifor trailer .....

AUDI
kerb = 1300 approx
GVW = 1900 approx
Towing = 1400

IFOR
unladen = 800 guess
MAM = 1600 guess but can be downplated to 1300
LOAD capacity = 500 so 400 will fit easy

Legal on a B licence

With a B+E licence all you need to be concerned with is.... 
The trailer MAM will take the weight of the horse and when loaded will not be more than 1400

Can you give me more exact figures or models please


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## Black_Horse_White (12 April 2012)

The plate on my Ifor 505 says 2340 & 1170 could please explain is the higher number the MAM and the lower the unladen weight? My 4x4 can tow 3000kg. Very confusing this towing lark ;-)


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## ROG (12 April 2012)

Black_Horse_White said:



			The plate on my Ifor 505 says 2340 & 1170 could please explain is the higher number the MAM and the lower the unladen weight? My 4x4 can tow 3000kg. Very confusing this towing lark ;-)
		
Click to expand...

You got it 

You can load 1170 into that trailer (2340-1170=1170)

With a B+E licence and as long as you never exceed the trailer 2340 MAM all will be legal in regards to licence and towing weights

PS - its unusual for a HB505 to have an unladen weight of 1170 as they usually are 905
Is there any reason for yours having a higher weight that you are aware of?


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## ChriX (13 April 2012)

Hi Rog, thanks for all the information.

1. B
2. 1463
3. 1940
4. 700 (unbraked)
5. 750
6. 150

Am I right in thinking this will be legal as long as I don't load the trailer with more than 550kg?


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## ROG (14 April 2012)

ChriX said:



			Hi Rog, thanks for all the information.

1. B
2. 1463
3. 1940
4. 700 (unbraked)
5. 750
6. 150

Am I right in thinking this will be legal as long as I don't load the trailer with more than 550kg?
		
Click to expand...

*CORRECT* 

IS THIS YOUR CAR? - if it is then it has a braked towing capacity of 1500

You can tow a trailer max MAM of 1463 on your B licence with this car

That means you can have a 600 kg horse in one of these with a little downplating by the manufacturer

BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER downplate to 1450
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER no need to downplate
IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER downplate to 1450


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## ChriX (14 April 2012)

Great! Now to find me a decent trailer with a MAM of 750 - didn't really want to spend as much as is necessary to get a braked one yet.

Actually that is not my car but you are correct that it does have a braked capacity of 1500 in the V5. It's a Volvo S40 2.0D.

I actually found your thread from a post you put up on the Stationary Engine forum that nobody has replied to! I only want to use it for carrying engines/machines - nothing quite as heavy as a horse yet.

Thanks again,
Chris


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## ROG (14 April 2012)

ChriX said:



			Great! Now to find me a decent trailer with a MAM of 750 - didn't really want to spend as much as is necessary to get a braked one yet.

Actually that is not my car but you are correct that it does have a braked capacity of 1500 in the V5. It's a Volvo S40 2.0D.

I actually found your thread from a post you put up on the Stationary Engine forum that nobody has replied to! I only want to use it for carrying engines/machines - nothing quite as heavy as a horse yet.

Thanks again,
Chris
		
Click to expand...

WELCOME and you are welcome 

If you google - Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained - you will find many types of forums where the same info is posted by me as it is a generally confusing issue for many

I put the examples in the last post so you and others can see what can be done on a B licence in regards to weights


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## TheDutchy (17 April 2012)

hi i have a nissan x trail which is under 2000 kerbweight i have downgraded my bateson plate to 1500 mam as only ever tow one 550 horse and unladen trailer weight 760 so my understanding is i am legal on b licence as passed in 2000 is this right?


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## ROG (17 April 2012)

TheDutchy said:



			hi i have a nissan x trail which is under 2000 kerbweight i have downgraded my bateson plate to 1500 mam as only ever tow one 550 horse and unladen trailer weight 760 so my understanding is i am legal on b licence as passed in 2000 is this right?
		
Click to expand...

Not quite right

You are adding the kerbweight to the trailer MAM for the 3500 rule when it should be the GVW plus the trailer MAM for the 3500 rule

From 2005 the X trailer seems to be 2050 GVW and from 2010 is seems to be 2170 GVW which means for B licence towing ....

If the X trail is a 2005 - 2009 the max trailer MAM is 1450 kgs
If the X trail is a 2010 - now the max trailer MAM is 1330 kgs

Assuming the GVW figures I found are correct (you can check yours to confirm) then a 1500 MAM is illegal in both cases for B licence towing

The rules for B licence towing are - 
Vehicle GVW + Trailer MAM = max 3500
Trailer MAM not more than Vehicle unladen weight
Actual trailer weight when loaded must not be more than towing capacity
No plated weights must be exceeded

PLEASE post your GVW


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## TheDutchy (17 April 2012)

Yes is gvw is 2050 so I'll have a look what trailer is downplated to again today providing its 1450 or less I should be ok :-s


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## ROG (17 April 2012)

TheDutchy said:



			Yes is gvw is 2050 so I'll have a look what trailer is downplated to again today providing its 1450 or less I should be ok :-s
		
Click to expand...

98% yes

There is one 2005 X trail model with a kerb/unladen weight of 1430 so a 1450 MAM would make it illegal but all the rest are 1450 or more

760+550=1310 so with a 1450 MAM that still leaves 140 to play with


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## TheDutchy (17 April 2012)

Hi rog thanks for that mine is a 2004 2.2 sport dci which seems to be 2050kg gvw on the internet I will have to check trailer plate now as I'm sure I plated it under 1500- what are the repurcussions of the 3500 being exceeded on paper but not if u are taken to weigh bridge ? And would I be right thinking its vosa who enforce this??


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## ROG (17 April 2012)

TheDutchy said:



			Hi rog thanks for that mine is a 2004 2.2 sport dci which seems to be 2050kg gvw on the internet I will have to check trailer plate now as I'm sure I plated it under 1500- what are the repurcussions of the 3500 being exceeded on paper but not if u are taken to weigh bridge ? And would I be right thinking its vosa who enforce this??
		
Click to expand...

Its a licence issue so it would be the police
VOSA deal with weight and safety issues but will call the police if a licence issue crops up
If alone on B licence & towing when the weights require a B+E licence then the driver can get charged with no L plates, no supervising driver and possibly no insurance - depends what insurer says
That is because all B licence holders have provisional B+E on the paper part of the licence


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## jackessex (18 April 2012)

hi i have a hilux surf ltd edition (m reg diesel)and a rice richardson trailer (old one)i have no idea how to find out weights etc could someone tell me if i am able to tow a 450kg horse on a b licence,i know im useless sorry


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## Amberfield (18 April 2012)

I am thinking of buying a Freelander 2 to tow with , but have no idea whether this will work with my trailer. I did have a Land Rover Defender but for work reasons need a more ' car ' type 4 x 4 . On the info I have would this be legal to tow a 580kg horse ? 

Richardson Supreme Ultra Trailer : - 

1. BE
2. 1785kgs
3. 2505kgs
4. 4505kgs
5. Not known !
6. 1100kgs.

I hope I have used all the correct figures , but probably not , it's so complicated ! Many thanks for your help and what a great thread.


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## ROG (18 April 2012)

jackessex said:



			hi i have a hilux surf ltd edition (m reg diesel)and a rice richardson trailer (old one)i have no idea how to find out weights etc could someone tell me if i am able to tow a 450kg horse on a b licence,i know im useless sorry 

Click to expand...

Not a lot to go on !!

WHICH HILUX IS YOURS IN THIS LIST?
There should be a plate somewhere on the car but there certainly will be weight info on the V5 registered keepers document and in the handbook if you have it

contact http://www.richardsonrice.co.uk/ with a chasis number which could be anywhere on the trailer to find out the unladen and MAM weights for it
I doubt the original plate is still somewhere on the trailer - but you might be lucky

Once I have some info then I will be able to help


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## ROG (18 April 2012)

Amberfield said:



			I am thinking of buying a Freelander 2 to tow with , but have no idea whether this will work with my trailer. I did have a Land Rover Defender but for work reasons need a more ' car ' type 4 x 4 . On the info I have would this be legal to tow a 580kg horse ? 

Richardson Supreme Ultra Trailer : - 

1. BE
2. 1785kgs
3. 2505kgs
4. 4505kgs
5. Not known !
6. 1100kgs.

I hope I have used all the correct figures , but probably not , it's so complicated ! Many thanks for your help and what a great thread.
		
Click to expand...

LICENCE 
B+E
IS THIS YOUR FREELANDER ? - if yes....
Kerb 1785
GVW 2505
Towing max 2000 (actual weight)
YOUR TRAILER
Unladen 1100
MAM 3200
HORSE/WEIGHT 600 in case of extra apples 

Load horse in trailer and it actually weighs 1700 (1100+600=1700) which still leaves another 300 that you can load into the trailer due to the towing limit of 2000

So yes, on a B+E licence that is legal 

For others wondering - no good for B licence towing as the high GVW of 2505 only leaves a max trailer MAM of 995 kgs


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## justjaz (18 April 2012)

Hi ROG

Muddying the waters a little here but is there any legal requirement regarding trailer 'noseweight' & the towbar max noseweight? 

As I've got a single IW 401 the trailer noseweight says it's 100kg. I'm looking into replacing the slightly battered Shogun which takes 125kg on the tow bar with something less 'beefy' but many of the 'soft roaders' or larger estate cars have a 75kg limit?

Many thanks for your help.


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## ROG (18 April 2012)

justjaz said:



			Hi ROG

Muddying the waters a little here but is there any legal requirement regarding trailer 'noseweight' & the towbar max noseweight? 

As I've got a single IW 401 the trailer noseweight says it's 100kg. I'm looking into replacing the slightly battered Shogun which takes 125kg on the tow bar with something less 'beefy' but many of the 'soft roaders' or larger estate cars have a 75kg limit?

Many thanks for your help.
		
Click to expand...

Gotta be honest here - these are issue I have very little knowledge of BUT ...

If the manufacturer has stated a max for them then it is likely that any driver not conforming could be prosecuted under vehicle safety legislation in the same way as exceeding the towing capacity


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## justjaz (18 April 2012)

ROG said:



			Gotta be honest here - these are issue I have very little knowledge of BUT ...

If the manufacturer has stated a max for them then it is likely that any driver not conforming could be prosecuted under vehicle safety legislation in the same way as exceeding the towing capacity
		
Click to expand...

I thought as much....just noseweight's aren't much talked about in horsey circles (I have caravanning in-laws though!).

Thanks for your help. Will add another column to my car selection spreasheet then!


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## ROG (18 April 2012)

justjaz said:



			I thought as much....just noseweight's aren't much talked about in horsey circles (I have caravanning in-laws though!).

Thanks for your help. Will add another column to my car selection spreasheet then!
		
Click to expand...

Trailer noseweights are just as important no matter what the trailer is but it seems that the balance is generally better with non caravans perhaps because people tend not to spread the load as well in them


----------



## ROG (19 April 2012)

ellis9905 said:



			so my daughter now wants to get out and about with her pony and start showing, so now i need to do the maths and see how best to present this to hubby!!

i passed my drivers test in 97 but after the change in licence entitlement.

so am i right in thinkingi can still tow provided the combind weight is less than  3500kg??

i have been looking on internet for some trailers- unfortunatly were looking at cheap for now, very few ads state the weight of the trailer- can someone give me an idication of weight for a 2 horse trailer- older style of rice trailer


so if we have a freelander that weighs 2000kg and a pony that weighs 400kg, then if the trailer is less than 1100kg would i be ok to tow without the seperate test??


if anyone with older cheaper trailers would be willing to post the trailer type and weight then i'd really appreciate it, so when im browsing the ads i'd have an idea as to what to look for.

thanks for any advice 

Click to expand...


Please post the GVW of the freelander and the plated MAM of the trailer as those are the two which must be added to gether and be under a total of 3500


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## ROG (19 April 2012)

Re B licence towing with a freelander

Just looked at the GVW of freelanders and it seems most are 2505 kgs

That being the case then the maximum trailer MAM (the most it can weigh when fully loaded) is only 995 kgs

As the lightest single horse trailer is 655 kgs unladen/empty then that only leaves 340 kgs for a horse!!


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## Absolute_Shambles (19 April 2012)

Hi Rog,

I've read your thread, and your ever-so helpful advice but I wonder if you can set me straight. 

I know I will need to get a B+E license and that is fine, but my question is about the vehicle really. 

I have just bought a 2007 VW passat estate 2.0 TDI 140ps. It can tow 1,800kg.

1. Am I right in saying that kerb weights are only a guide?
2. Am I right in saying that I do not need to worry that my vehicle might be illegal in any way due to Nose weights? Only if it is balanced incorrectly?
3. Am I OK to tow one 450kg horse on an average 950kg trailer if I get it downplated to 1,800kg by the manufacturer?

And have I missed anything at all with regards to weights or the suitability of the vehicle to tow occasionally? 

I've been going round and round working this out and my brain can no longer handle it!


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## Absolute_Shambles (19 April 2012)

ROG said:



			LICENCE 
B+E
IS THIS YOUR FREELANDER ? - if yes....
Kerb 1785
GVW 2505
Towing max 2000 (actual weight)
YOUR TRAILER
Unladen 1100
MAM 3200
HORSE/WEIGHT 600 in case of extra apples 

Load horse in trailer and it actually weighs 1700 (1100+600=1700) which still leaves another 300 that you can load into the trailer due to the towing limit of 2000

So yes, on a B+E licence that is legal 

For others wondering - no good for B licence towing as the high GVW of 2505 only leaves a max trailer MAM of 995 kgs
		
Click to expand...

Rog,
I was told that the trailer weight capacity cannot exceed the towing capacity of the vehicle? And that was in all cases? Thats why I am asking about downplating as my passat can only two 1800kg, but the smaller lighter trailers have a weight capacity of 2,000kg.

Help! So confused!


----------



## ROG (19 April 2012)

Absolute_Shambles said:



			Hi Rog,

I've read your thread, and your ever-so helpful advice but I wonder if you can set me straight. 

I know I will need to get a B+E license and that is fine, but my question is about the vehicle really. 

I have just bought a 2007 VW passat estate 2.0 TDI 140ps. It can tow 1,800kg.

1. Am I right in saying that kerb weights are only a guide?
2. Am I right in saying that I do not need to worry that my vehicle might be illegal in any way due to Nose weights? Only if it is balanced incorrectly?
3. Am I OK to tow one 450kg horse on an average 950kg trailer if I get it downplated to 1,800kg by the manufacturer?

And have I missed anything at all with regards to weights or the suitability of the vehicle to tow occasionally? 

I've been going round and round working this out and my brain can no longer handle it!
		
Click to expand...

1 - yes, nothing in law on them - but they are slightly more than unladen weights which do have legal status

2 - nose weights are a safety issue and are covered in law under C&U regs

3 - this will be a longer answer...
Firstly, on a B+E licence there is no need to downplate anything

*Now lets see if this would be OK for a B licence ....*
IS THIS YOUR CAR?
If it is then clicking the dimensions tab gives....
Kerb 1715
GVW 2140
towing 1800

Your trailer - what is it?
I can say this ..... For a 500 kg load/horse...
You would need a trailer plated at 1360 kgs maximum (1360+2140=3500) with a maximum unladen/empty weight of 860 kgs (860+500=1360)

So if that is your car and you can get a trailer with those weights which may mean downplating by the manufacturer (providing there are still in business) then that would be legal for B licence towing


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## ROG (19 April 2012)

Absolute_Shambles said:



			Rog,
I was told that the trailer weight capacity cannot exceed the towing capacity of the vehicle? And that was in all cases? Thats why I am asking about downplating as my passat can only two 1800kg, but the smaller lighter trailers have a weight capacity of 2,000kg.

Help! So confused!
		
Click to expand...

OH NO!!! - the MYTH has resurfaced again 

Seriously, this is an internet myth which many are now starting to believe

There is nothing in law or any other official rules that states the trailer MAM cannot be more than the towing capacity of the vehicle
The towing capacity is set by the manufacturer for the power to actual weight being towed so that the vehicle can safely cope with it
Towing capacity itself has no legal bearing but if exceeded can be used to prosecute under vehicle safety laws
Towing capacity refers to the ACTUAL weight of the trailer and its load, not what the 'potential' of the trailer being fully loaded could be

I hope that has solved the confusion and please ask anyone else who says it to you to provide the law which says so


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## ROG (19 April 2012)

OOPS - apologies - how rude of me 



			Absolute_Shambles 
Foal
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2
		
Click to expand...

*WELCOME *


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## Absolute_Shambles (20 April 2012)

ROG said:



			1 - yes, nothing in law on them - but they are slightly more than unladen weights which do have legal status

2 - nose weights are a safety issue and are covered in law under C&U regs

3 - this will be a longer answer...
Firstly, on a B+E licence there is no need to downplate anything

*Now lets see if this would be OK for a B licence ....*
IS THIS YOUR CAR?
If it is then clicking the dimensions tab gives....
Kerb 1715
GVW 2140
towing 1800

Your trailer - what is it?
I can say this ..... For a 500 kg load/horse...
You would need a trailer plated at 1360 kgs maximum (1360+2140=3500) with a maximum unladen/empty weight of 860 kgs (860+500=1360)

So if that is your car and you can get a trailer with those weights which may mean downplating by the manufacturer (providing there are still in business) then that would be legal for B licence towing 

Click to expand...

Every forum needs a Rog! Thank you so so much. Yes that is the spec of the vehicle, I do not have a trailer yet so I have the flexibility it seems. Sorry point 1 was supposed to read "Does the 85% guide not matter as much for horse trailers as it does for caravans due to the difference in weight between a horse and a caravan?"

I thought it was a strange that having done all my research I had never come across this rule on any government website, but there are still loads of sites that say things like this;

_Check that the Trailer Gross Weight does not exceed the Towing Capacity of the Towing vehicle. _
And this is from the National Trailer Towing Association's website
http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/preparing/preparing.aspx

If I went for my B+E I'm not going to be turned away for having a trailer which exceeds the MAM of the car? But if I stayed on the B license I would need to downplate the trailer to be legal? Or am I getting gross weight with MAM confused?

Thank you for the warm welcome and well done on a great thread once again.


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## ROG (20 April 2012)

Absolute_Shambles said:



			Every forum needs a Rog! Thank you so so much. Yes that is the spec of the vehicle, I do not have a trailer yet so I have the flexibility it seems. Sorry point 1 was supposed to read "Does the 85% guide not matter as much for horse trailers as it does for caravans due to the difference in weight between a horse and a caravan?"

I thought it was a strange that having done all my research I had never come across this rule on any government website, but there are still loads of sites that say things like this;

_Check that the Trailer Gross Weight does not exceed the Towing Capacity of the Towing vehicle. _
And this is from the National Trailer Towing Association's website
http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/preparing/preparing.aspx

If I went for my B+E I'm not going to be turned away for having a trailer which exceeds the MAM of the car? But if I stayed on the B license I would need to downplate the trailer to be legal? Or am I getting gross weight with MAM confused?

Thank you for the warm welcome and well done on a great thread once again.
		
Click to expand...

_Check that the Trailer Gross Weight does not exceed the Towing Capacity of the Towing vehicle. _
That is correct - in this case gross weight means actual weight and not gross vehicle weight (GVW) or Maximum authorised mass (MAM)
It is the use of the words gross weight which confuses
The NTTA would have been better saying - _Check that the empty Trailer Weight plus the Load does not exceed the Towing Capacity of the Towing vehicle. _

85% for new caravanners is recommended as caravans are huge empty containers of air which can get blown all over the place if not properly controlled

_If I went for my B+E I'm not going to be turned away for having a trailer which exceeds the MAM of the car? _
You will not get turned away because that is legal

_But if I stayed on the B license I would need to downplate the trailer to be legal?_
In most. not all, cases - yes - depends what vehicle and trailer you have but in your case with a car GVW of 2140 then they will need downplating because the lowest I know of is 1400 and you need 1360 or less for the trailer MAM 

_Or am I getting gross weight with MAM confused?_
Those words _gross weight_ on their own can be confusing
GVW or Gross Vehicle Weight is not the same as gross weight
Gross Weight on its own means the total or actual weight that it is at the time
NETT/actual weight of the trailer and the NETT/actual weight of the load add up to the GROSS/actual weight
GVW and MAM are the same thing


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## Absolute_Shambles (20 April 2012)

Thank you Rog. Very helpful, and I hope it helps other people in a similar predicament. 

In conclusion:

To stay on a B license I need to downplate a trailer to 1360MAM to be within the 3500kg rule. 

When I have a B+E license the trailer does not need to be downplated for MAM but the weight of the trailer cannot exceed the towing limit of the car, in my case 1800kg and I need to keep within the towing limit of the car for my load. So i could have 2 small ponies (350kg) in one trailer when I pass the B+E certificate.


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## ROG (20 April 2012)

Absolute_Shambles said:



			Thank you Rog. Very helpful, and I hope it helps other people in a similar predicament. 

In conclusion:

To stay on a B license I need to downplate a trailer to 1360MAM to be within the 3500kg rule. 

When I have a B+E license the trailer does not need to be downplated for MAM but the *ACTUAL* weight of the trailer *AND THE LOAD* cannot exceed the towing limit of the car, in my case 1800kg and I need to keep within the towing limit of the car for my load. So i could have 2 small ponies (350kg) in one trailer when I pass the B+E certificate.



Click to expand...

*ADDED BITS IN YOUR QUOTE*
350x2=700 plus empty weight of trailer must not be more than 1800 and the trailer MAM needs to be at least 700+empty trailer weight


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## tallyho! (22 April 2012)

Hi ROG! 

Thinking about towing with my A4 avant with a max towing weight (braked) of 1900kgs. My trailer MAM is 1905kgs. I'm 5kgs out, and I know you said there is no law against it... but still dont want to get into trouble. How does one go about downplating trailers?

(Long story, the patrol is needed elsewhere!)

t!


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## ROG (22 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Thinking about towing with my A4 avant with a max towing weight (braked) of 1900kgs. My trailer MAM is 1905kgs. I'm 5kgs out, guess I still need to downplate... how does one go about downplating trailers?
		
Click to expand...

IS THIS YOUR CAR? - if it is....
Kerb 1645
GVW 2120
towing 1900

B licence towing = max trailer plated MAM of 1380 kgs (1380+2120=3500)

B+E licence towing = max trailer plated MAM 3500 but max actual weight of trailer when loaded is 1900 (towing capacity)

If I got wrong specs/dimensions for your car then please give correct info

Downplating is easy but only if the trailer manufacturer is still in business
Just call them to arrange for it to be done
It is usually FREE or for a tiny admin cost


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## tallyho! (22 April 2012)

Yes thats pretty much it on the specs. Thanks ROG!


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## ROG (22 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Yes thats pretty much it on the specs. Thanks ROG!



Click to expand...

Good guess on my part 




tallyho! said:



			max towing weight (braked) of 1900kgs. My trailer MAM is 1905kgs. I'm 5kgs out, guess I still need to downplate
		
Click to expand...

Just noticed what you said here....

A trailer does not need to be downplated to match a lower towing capacity

Trailers only need downplating to meet the requirements for B licence towing

Lets assume that the towing capacity for your Audi was 1300 and not 1900.
You can still have a plated trailer of 1380 MAM but the actual weight when loaded cannot be more than 1300


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## ROG (22 April 2012)

I know some who asked questions on this thread were after a  second hand IFOR HB401 single horse trailer for B licence towing so ....


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## tallyho! (22 April 2012)

ROG said:



			Good guess on my part 



Just noticed what you said here....

A trailer does not need to be downplated to match a lower towing capacity

Trailers only need downplating to meet the requirements for B licence towing

Lets assume that the towing capacity for your Audi was 1300 and not 1900.
You can still have a plated trailer of 1380 MAM but the actual weight when loaded cannot be more than 1300
		
Click to expand...


*bulb lights up in head* 

 I see, so I don't have to mess about then since I have my BE. I am so relieved about that as I was having a serious argument with my poor father about who needed the 4 x 4 the most. 

Doh! For me and, thank you so much for the explanation ROG.


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## MrsMozart (22 April 2012)

Hello 

I've read a lot of the thread - would have read all of it, but the numbers were sending my head fuzzy!

We have a 2001 Disco 2 TD5.

We have a large, very old, very refurbished trailer - no plates on it anywhere. 

We (D and I) passed our car tests back when Adam was a lad. 

Neither of us have taken any other tests. 

D1 is learning to drive. When she has passed her car driving test, and gained experience, she would like to start towing. 

Can she then use my Disco and tow Hugh the Huge Trailer guven that it's a heavy rig? Obviously will need to take the test, but can she practice with either the D or me with her?

We're also looking at lorries. I wanted a 7.5t, but I know there are rules around age/tests/3.5t/7.5t, but don't know what they are! Please shed light on my confused and rapidly becoming addled brain 

P.S. I was considering her making use of the Disco and Hugh, and me using the lorry


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## ROG (23 April 2012)

MrsMozart said:



			Hello 

I've read a lot of the thread - would have read all of it, but the numbers were sending my head fuzzy!

We have a 2001 Disco 2 TD5.

We have a large, very old, very refurbished trailer - no plates on it anywhere. 

We (D and I) passed our car tests back when Adam was a lad. 

Neither of us have taken any other tests. 

D1 is learning to drive. When she has passed her car driving test, and gained experience, she would like to start towing. 

Can she then use my Disco and tow Hugh the Huge Trailer guven that it's a heavy rig? Obviously will need to take the test, but can she practice with either the D or me with her?

We're also looking at lorries. I wanted a 7.5t, but I know there are rules around age/tests/3.5t/7.5t, but don't know what they are! Please shed light on my confused and rapidly becoming addled brain 

P.S. I was considering her making use of the Disco and Hugh, and me using the lorry 

Click to expand...

You or D can supervise D1 if you passed your car tests before 1997
All B licence holders have a B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence

That means they can tow a B+E combination either loaded or empty and on a motorway providing they adhere to these rules:-
Supervising driver must be age 21+ and held B+E for 3+ years
L plates on front of vehicle and rear of trailer
Correct insurance for B+E learner - check with current insurer

If the trailer is not plated and there is no way to find out from its manufacturer then the MAM will be what all the tyre load ratings on the tyres add up to
Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS to determine the MAM.
A rating of 66 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1200 kgs.

Age 18 for ANY LGV including C1 (3.5 to 7.5 tonnes) but that can be obtained by getting LGV C as C1 is as subcategory of C - so the 18 year old can go direct from B to C
If all the driver wants is C1 and the trainer does it with a large 5 tonne van then go for that but if they are using a 7.5 tonne lorry then go for C as there is virtually no difference
Passing the LGV rigid test C1 or C will not give B+E
To get a +E then a +E test must be passed
Passing a +E test higher than B+E will automatically give B+E so passing a +E test in any C category will give B+E

If anything I've said is still not clear then please say so because its not your fault but mine as I need to find a way to put it to you in a way that makes it clear for you


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## velvet2011 (23 April 2012)

Hi ROG, fairly positive my set up isn't legal but just checking out my options - of which sitting my B+E test is probably top.  I assume the set up is fine when (if) I pass.
Many Thanks 

1/ B (I think, passed in 1999)
2/ Kerbweight: 2185kg (Disco 2001)
3/ max towing weight: 3500kg
4/ towing capacity: 3500kg
5/ max gross weight: 2584kg (Ifor 510)
6/ Unladen weight: 1000kg


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## ROG (23 April 2012)

velvet2011 said:



			Hi ROG, fairly positive my set up isn't legal but just checking out my options - of which sitting my B+E test is probably top.  I assume the set up is fine when (if) I pass.
Many Thanks 

1/ B (I think, passed in 1999)
2/ Kerbweight: 2185kg (Disco 2001)
3/ max towing weight: 3500kg
4/ towing capacity: 3500kg
5/ max gross weight: 2584kg (Ifor 510)
6/ Unladen weight: 1000kg
		
Click to expand...

IS THIS YOUR DISCO?
Kerb 2185
GVW 2880
Towing 3500

IFOR HB510 TRAILER
Unladen 1000
MAM 2584

B licence = maximum trailer plated MAM of 750kgs

B+E licence = maximum trailer plated MAM of 3500 kgs and can be fully loaded to 3500 because both the MAM and towing capacity are 3500


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## velvet2011 (23 April 2012)

Thanks ROG.  Yes its my disco. So combination will be fine with my B+E licence, thanks.  And totally not legal even empty


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## lexibell (23 April 2012)

ROG

Apoligies if this question has been asked, I think someone must have possed the question but I dont have time on my break from work to read all of your replies - I hope you dont mind me asking.

I have towed previously and felt confident doing so, however my reversing left a little (lot!) to be desired!!! I have since discovered that as I passed after 97 I was infact towing illegally!!  obviously I havent towed since.


anyway, my question is this. I only have one 14.2 dales to transport. He weights 500kg. I hold a B licence only. If I was to look at a single horse trailer, are there any vehicle/trailer combinations that would mean I could legally and safely tow him without taking my B+E test?

Thanks


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## ROG (23 April 2012)

velvet2011 said:



			Thanks ROG.  Yes its my disco. So combination will be fine with my B+E licence, thanks.  And totally not legal even empty 

Click to expand...

Not even empty for B licence towing because the GVW of the Disco and the MAM of the trailer will not change loaded or empty and it is those two weights added together which must not be over 3500 kgs
Also the trailer MAM must not be more than the unladen/kerb weight of the Disco


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## ROG (23 April 2012)

lexibell said:



			ROG

Apoligies if this question has been asked, I think someone must have possed the question but I dont have time on my break from work to read all of your replies - I hope you dont mind me asking.

I have towed previously and felt confident doing so, however my reversing left a little (lot!) to be desired!!! I have since discovered that as I passed after 97 I was infact towing illegally!!  obviously I havent towed since.


anyway, my question is this. I only have one 14.2 dales to transport. He weights 500kg. I hold a B licence only. If I was to look at a single horse trailer, are there any vehicle/trailer combinations that would mean I could legally and safely tow him without taking my B+E test?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

YES there are such trailers and here are 3 of them - there may be more ...
BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
Those can be downplated by contacting their respective manufacturers who are still trading - cost = nowt or very little to do that

What also matters is the vehicle you are going to tow with so please post what that will be so I can work things out for you
If you have the unladen/kerb, GVW and towing capacity weights in kgs then that will help a lot


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## lexibell (23 April 2012)

Thanks for that reply - I am actually looking at buying a new car in the next couple of months as my current old banger is on its way out!! hence my thinking that I could tow rather than trying to save for a 3.5 transit.

Perhaps you wouldnt mind recommending what types I should be looking at? 

I doubt my budget for this vehicle will be huge TBH, so I will prob be looking at a used car rather than buying new

any ideas appreciated

Thanks again


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## ROG (23 April 2012)

lexibell said:



			Thanks for that reply - I am actually looking at buying a new car in the next couple of months as my current old banger is on its way out!! hence my thinking that I could tow rather than trying to save for a 3.5 transit.

Perhaps you wouldnt mind recommending what types I should be looking at? 

I doubt my budget for this vehicle will be huge TBH, so I will prob be looking at a used car rather than buying new

any ideas appreciated

Thanks again
		
Click to expand...

The Nissan X trail 4x4 is perhaps one option as others have mentioned it

With a 500 kgs horse and any one of those trailers I listed plated at say 1400 MAM (2 of them would need downplating to that) then you would need a vehicle with a Maximum GVW of 2100, a Minimum kerb/unladen weight of 1400 and a towing capacity of at least 1350


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## lexibell (23 April 2012)

Thanks for the advice ROG, I am on autotrader already car shopping


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## ROG (23 April 2012)

lexibell said:



			Thanks for the advice ROG, I am on autotrader already car shopping 

Click to expand...

Little tip for getting weights if not shown on adverts for vehicles....

GOOGLE - kgs gvw kerb towing *********** - insert details of vehicle such as nissan xtrail 2005 instead of the ******** and open a seperate window so you dont lose the advert


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## MrsMozart (23 April 2012)

ROG said:



			You or D can supervise D1 if you passed your car tests before 1997
All B licence holders have a B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence

That means they can tow a B+E combination either loaded or empty and on a motorway providing they adhere to these rules:-
Supervising driver must be age 21+ and held B+E for 3+ years
L plates on front of vehicle and rear of trailer
Correct insurance for B+E learner - check with current insurer

If the trailer is not plated and there is no way to find out from its manufacturer then the MAM will be what all the tyre load ratings on the tyres add up to
Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS to determine the MAM.
A rating of 66 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1200 kgs.

Age 18 for ANY LGV including C1 (3.5 to 7.5 tonnes) but that can be obtained by getting LGV C as C1 is as subcategory of C - so the 18 year old can go direct from B to C
If all the driver wants is C1 and the trainer does it with a large 5 tonne van then go for that but if they are using a 7.5 tonne lorry then go for C as there is virtually no difference
Passing the LGV rigid test C1 or C will not give B+E
To get a +E then a +E test must be passed
Passing a +E test higher than B+E will automatically give B+E so passing a +E test in any C category will give B+E

If anything I've said is still not clear then please say so because its not your fault but mine as I need to find a way to put it to you in a way that makes it clear for you
		
Click to expand...


Thank you 

So, to make it clear in my head (D is laughing at me... ):

Both D and I can sit with D1 (once she has passed the B test) - L plates, insurance for B+E learner, can go on the motorways;

Once D1 has passed the B+E, she can tow Hugh the Huge Trailer with our Disco. As an aside, the trailer tyres are rated to carry 900kg each, so the total is 3,600kg, though it's limited by the Disco's towing capacity of 3,500kg;

Once D1 has passed the B test (which is the normal car test), she can drive up to (and including?) 3.5t lorry;

For her to drive more than 3.5t, she has to take the C1 test - I got a little confused at this point... What does the C1 test allow her to drive up to?

The other thing I was a bit unsure of was the +E. I understand that the following will allow D1 to drive the Disco and tow Hugh the Huge Trailer (3,500kg):

B+E; or
C+E (or C1+E),

but that a simple C or C1 will not allow her to tow HtHT. The confused bit was if she's passed the C+E, can she drive a 7.5t and tow a trailer, or does the weight of the whole lot have to be 7.5t (loaded)?

Thank you again ROG  . You really are a star and deserve something really nice


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## ROG (23 April 2012)

MrsMozart said:



			Thank you 

So, to make it clear in my head (D is laughing at me... ):

Both D and I can sit with D1 (once she has passed the B test) - L plates, insurance for B+E learner, can go on the motorways;
*YES - and fully loaded* 

Once D1 has passed the B+E, she can tow Hugh the Huge Trailer with our Disco. 
*YES* 

As an aside, the trailer tyres are rated to carry 900kg each, so the total is 3,600kg, though it's limited by the Disco's towing capacity of 3,500kg;
*YES - Authorities will take the max MAM as being 3500 because of the type of brakes it has* 

Once D1 has passed the B test (which is the normal car test), she can drive up to (and including?) 3.5t lorry;
*YES* 

For her to drive more than 3.5t, she has to take the C1 test
*YES* 

 - I got a little confused at this point... What does the C1 test allow her to drive up to?
*ANY RIGID VEHICLE UP TO 7.5 TONNES WITH LESS THAN 10 TOTAL SEATS and a trailer up to 750 kgs MAM*

The other thing I was a bit unsure of was the +E. I understand that the following will allow D1 to drive the Disco and tow Hugh the Huge Trailer (3,500kg):

B+E; or
C+E (or C1+E),

but that a simple C or C1 will not allow her to tow HtHT. The confused bit was if she's passed the C+E, can she drive a 7.5t and tow a trailer, or does the weight of the whole lot have to be 7.5t (loaded)?
*B+E = ANY VEHICLE UP TO 3.5 TONNES WITH LESS THAN A TOTAL OF 10 SEATS TOWING A TRAILER UP TO 3.5 TONNES
C1+E = ANY VEHICLE UP TO 7.5 TONNES WITH LESS THAN A TOTAL OF 10 SEATS TOWING A TRAILER BUT THE TOTAL ACTUAL WEIGHT OF THE COMBINATION IS 12 TONNES MAX
C+E = ANY RIGID VEHICLE (NO WEIGHT LIMIT) WITH LESS THAN A TOTAL OF 10 SEATS TOWING ANY TRAILER - WEIGHT RESTRICTIONS WILL BE ON THE VOSA PLATES *

Thank you again ROG  . You really are a star and deserve something really nice 

Click to expand...

Hope that helps


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## MrsMozart (23 April 2012)

ROG said:



			Hope that helps
		
Click to expand...



You are indeed an absolute star   

D thinks so too (anyone who could get that lot into my thick head deserves a medal according to him ).

Thank you again. I shall think of something nice to send to you


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## ROG (25 April 2012)

I did not know there was a set up like that .... and it can be driven by a driver who only has a B licence!!


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## Optimist (26 April 2012)

Please can you tell me what I can legally tow in an ifor williams 505 with an ancient, 1996, Volvo 940.  I am also sufficiently ancient to be able to tow on my ordinary driving licence.  None of the websites seem to have data for such a "mature" vehicle!  I currently use this set up occasionally to tow one horse (when lorry is in hospital, which it currently is and looks like remaining there for a while...) I would love to be able to tow two but imagine this would not be possible?

Thank you in advance!!


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## ROG (26 April 2012)

Optimist said:



			Please can you tell me what I can legally tow in an ifor williams 505 with an ancient, 1996, Volvo 940.  I am also sufficiently ancient to be able to tow on my ordinary driving licence.  None of the websites seem to have data for such a "mature" vehicle!  I currently use this set up occasionally to tow one horse (when lorry is in hospital, which it currently is and looks like remaining there for a while...) I would love to be able to tow two but imagine this would not be possible?

Thank you in advance!!
		
Click to expand...

I put this into a google search - 1996 volvo 940 kgs gvw towing kerb - it came up with a few specifications/dimensions for your car
1 - THIS ONE? or 2 - THIS ONE? or 3 - THIS ONE?

IFOR WILLIAMS HB505 TRAILER
Unladen 905
MAM 2340

Now then .... some of the volvos in those links have a 1300 and some a 1600 towing capacity which for a B+E licence holder is all we really need to be concerned with.

With a 1300 towing capacity and 905 empty trailer weight all that can be loaded into the trailer is 395 kgs but with a 1600 that increases to 695 kgs

Which Volvo is yours in those three links?


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## ROG (26 April 2012)

FOR A VOLVO 940 (1990 - 1997) I ALSO FOUND THIS AND THIS


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## Optimist (26 April 2012)

AAAAGHHHHHH!!!!

Why is nothing simple? (like me..)

It is the estate, so like the third of your pictures.  It says on the back of it 940 s 2.3, but it could well have said se and the "e" might have abandoned ship....

I have looked in the manual and, like one of your links, it covers all the different models.

Might it say something on a plate on the car itself??


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## ROG (26 April 2012)

Optimist said:



			AAAAGHHHHHH!!!!

Why is nothing simple? (like me..)

It is the estate, so like the third of your pictures.  It says on the back of it 940 s 2.3, but it could well have said se and the "e" might have abandoned ship....

I have looked in the manual and, like one of your links, it covers all the different models.

Might it say something on a plate on the car itself??



Click to expand...

It is the number 3 in those options  - 1990 to 1997 model

That means it has a 1600 kgs towing capacity so you can load the trailer with a maximum weight of 695 kgs - plenty for one horse but not two horses


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## Optimist (26 April 2012)

Thank you! 

Such a relief to know what I am doing is OK - and if I trade in the boys for shetlands, I can take 2!!


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## ROG (30 April 2012)

With this thread now at 40 pages I though perhaps this might need repeating.

*Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained*


Trailer *MAM* means the maximum weight the trailer can be when fully loaded (weight of empty trailer plus weight of load)

Trailers over 3500 kgs plated MAM weight come under different rules which is why all the trailers towed by B class vehicles , those of 3.5 tonnes and under, are not plated at more than 3500 kgs or 3.5 tonnes MAM

Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS to determine the MAM.
A rating of 66 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1200 kgs.

Vehicles in the B licence category will have the following information on a plate in the vehicle, in the handbook or on the V5 form.
Information can also be found on many internet vehicle specification sites.
*Unladen or Kerb weight* - although there is a slight difference in the two it is not that much
*GVW* - the max weight the vehicle can weigh when fully loaded
*GTW* - the max weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights.
*Towing capacity* - this is the ACTUAL weight that can be towed by the vehicle - it does not mean the trailer MAM weight.
*None of the above weights must be exceeded*

Some vehicles have a GVW, a towing capacity and a GTW. In such a case the GTW takes priority over the GVW and towing capacity when added together

*FOR B+E LICENCES*

Where a towing capacity is listed then this would be a legal example:-
CAR has GVW of 2000 and a towing capacity of 1800
TRAILER has a MAM of 3500 and an unladen weight of 1000
The trailer can be loaded with a maximum weight of 800

Where there is not a towing capacity listed then the GTW is used 
GTW minus the GVW does not give the towing capacity unless the vehicle is fully laden
EXAMPLE: -
VAN has GVW of 3500 and GTW of 6000
TRAILER has MAM of 3500
The van and trailer can weigh 3000 each and be legal

*FOR B LICENCES*
The Gov sites are not that good at explaining this so I have managed to find a simple way of determining whether a driver can tow something on a B only licence -

To tow over 750 kgs with a B licence you need to say *NO* to the following:-
Is the plated MAM of the trailer more than the UNLADEN/KERB/EMPTY weight of the towing vehicle?
Does the GVW of the towing vehicle plus the plated MAM of the trailer add up to more than 3500 kgs?
Is the ACTUAL weight of the empty trailer and its load more than the listed towing capacity?

Example of legally towing over 750 kgs with a B licence - made up figures but not that far from what can be found....

Towing vehicle - 
Unladen/empty/kerb = 1500
GVW = 2000
Towing capacity = 1800

Trailer -
Unladen/empty = 800
MAM = 1500 (Perhaps originally a 2000 MAM but downplated by manufacturer so it conforms to B licence towing) 

Load trailer with 700 max 

Reasons it is legal for towing on a B licence -
The 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than the 1500 unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
The 2000 GVW of the towing vehicle plus the 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than 3500
The towing capacity/actual weight being towed does not exceed 1800

Here is another way of looking at the B licence towing rules with examples:-

RULE 1 - The gross plated weight of the trailer (MAM) cannot exceed the vehicle kerbweight.

RULE 2 - Also, the sum of the vehicle gross plated weight (GVW) and the trailer gross plated weight (MAM) cannot exceed 3500kg.

Examples:-

Vehicle 1200kg kerbweight, 1700kg gross plated weight (GVW) = maximum trailer gross plated weight (MAM) 1200kg SEE RULE 1 

Vehicle 1500kg kerbweight, 2000kg gross plated weight (GVW) = maximum trailer gross plated weight (MAM) 1500kg SEE RULES 1 & 2

Vehicle 1800kg kerbweight, 2300kg gross plated weight (GVW) = maximum trailer gross plated weight (MAM) 1200kg SEE RULE 2

The weight which can be loaded on the trailer is the trailer gross plated weight (MAM) minus the trailer unladen weight
Trailer gross plated weight (MAM) 1500 with unladen weight 900 = a maximum load of 600

The listed maximum towing capacity for a vehicle must not be exceeded - that is actual weight not plated MAM weight
Although there is not a specific law which states this there are other laws which can be used if the combination (vehicle & trailer) is deemed unsafe.

Caravan weights work on a slightly different system as they take into account the recommended (not legal) 85% towing rule


*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Many will find that passing the once in a lifetime B+E test is their best option so here is some info on that test:-

*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise (old measurements) - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independant drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos



Please post with this info if you want me to answer a specific query - weights in kgs please
(might be made easier if the info below is copied and pasted with the weights etc put after the '=' bits)

LICENCE
B or B+E =

VEHICLE
Unladen/kerb = 
GVW =
GTW = 
Towing capacity = 

TRAILER
Unladen = 
MAM =


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## mtj (1 May 2012)

Sorry if this has already been asked.

My towing car V70 is starting to get problems so thinking about replacement.

OH (who will be paying) fails to understand the economics of a 3.5 lorry and insists i have a tow car and trailer.

Need to pull 1600kg with 1 horse minimum.  What is the most economical fuel wise to do this.  Hefty budget to purchase vehicle ie £40k no probs.

Any suggestions?

Thanks


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## ROG (1 May 2012)

mtj said:



			Sorry if this has already been asked.

My towing car V70 is starting to get problems so thinking about replacement.

OH (who will be paying) fails to understand the economics of a 3.5 lorry and insists i have a tow car and trailer.

Need to pull 1600kg with 1 horse minimum.  What is the most economical fuel wise to do this.  Hefty budget to purchase vehicle ie £40k no probs.

Any suggestions?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Not really my thing - I can help with licence & weight issues when presented with information

May I suggest that you ask the same question in the New Lounge forum but state if you are restricted by only having a B licence


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## mtj (1 May 2012)

Sorry, getting hopeful you might be a tow car enthusiast!

I'm old enough to have the old licence but have taken tow training voluntarily.


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## chestnuttyy (3 May 2012)

1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - Minimum kerb weight - 1515kg(ford mondeo)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - Gross vehicle weight 2075kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
Maximum Gross Weight 1600 , Unladen Weight *  770 


Please could you tell me if this setup would be legal? I haven't purchased either car or trailer as of yet, but trying to figure out how to tow without taking my trailer test (can't afford the lessons and test as well as a trailer ).

Thanks


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## ROG (3 May 2012)

chestnuttyy said:



			1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - Minimum kerb weight - 1515kg(ford mondeo)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - Gross vehicle weight 2075kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
Maximum Gross Weight 1600 , Unladen Weight *  770 


Please could you tell me if this setup would be legal? I haven't purchased either car or trailer as of yet, but trying to figure out how to tow without taking my trailer test (can't afford the lessons and test as well as a trailer ).

Thanks 

Click to expand...

Not quite legal for B licence towing YET but it CAN be 

From the trailer figures it is a HB401 trailer which needs to be downplated to 1400 kgs by contacting Ifor williams and then taking it to their nearest agent to you - cost is usually nowt or a few quid for admin

That would leave the trailer with a horse/load capacity of 630 kgs so plenty for one horse and few bits and bobs me thinks 

The reasons it would be legal for B licence towing when downplated to 1400:-
1400+2075=3475 which is not more than 3500
1400 is less than the 1515 kerb weight
If fully laden the trailer is nowehere to the 1800 towing capacity/actual weight that the vehicle has been designed to tow safely so that is not an issue


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## chestnuttyy (3 May 2012)

ROG said:



			Not quite legal for B licence towing YET but it CAN be 

From the trailer figures it is a HB401 trailer which needs to be downplated to 1400 kgs by contacting Ifor williams and then taking it to their nearest agent to you - cost is usually nowt or a few quid for admin

That would leave the trailer with a horse/load capacity of 630 kgs so plenty for one horse and few bits and bobs me thinks 

The reasons it would be legal for B licence towing when downplated to 1400:-
1400+2075=3475 which is not more than 3500
1400 is less than the 1515 kerb weight
If fully laden the trailer is nowehere to the 1800 towing capacity/actual weight that the vehicle has been designed to tow safely so that is not an issue
		
Click to expand...

Thank you!! 

This is DEFINITELY something I'm going to look into now .


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## ROG (3 May 2012)

Ifor williams contact number 01490 412527 - ask for customer care


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## perfect11s (3 May 2012)

mtj said:



			Sorry, getting hopeful you might be a tow car enthusiast!

I'm old enough to have the old licence but have taken tow training voluntarily.
		
Click to expand...

  would say most of the big estates, volvo merc e class, subaru legacy  would be fine 
not sure why fuel would be an issue if you have 40k for a budget!!!!   what you will lose in depriciation over say 3 years will dwarf the extra  fuel saving   most big cars lose about 2 3rds of there value over 3 years  a 3.5 ton box for 20 k and say a mid size diesel car for the same would most likley work out cheaper as you would save on fuel and they would hold there value better....


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## chestnuttyy (3 May 2012)

chestnuttyy said:



			1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - Minimum kerb weight - 1515kg(ford mondeo)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - Gross vehicle weight 2075kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
Maximum Gross Weight 1600 , Unladen Weight *  770 


Please could you tell me if this setup would be legal? I haven't purchased either car or trailer as of yet, but trying to figure out how to tow without taking my trailer test (can't afford the lessons and test as well as a trailer ).

Thanks 

Click to expand...

Could you do the same again but for a Nissan XTrail?!


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## ROG (3 May 2012)

chestnuttyy said:



			Could you do the same again but for a Nissan XTrail?!
		
Click to expand...

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=10532570&postcount=308
Is that your Xtrail? - there are a few different ones


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## chestnuttyy (3 May 2012)

ROG said:



http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=10532570&postcount=308
Is that your Xtrail? - there are a few different ones
		
Click to expand...

Haven't bought it yet, just looking at possibilities! The GVW looks to be roughly the same so I'm guessing it's the same setup as the Mondeo... just downplate the trailer to 1450 ?


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## ROG (4 May 2012)

chestnuttyy said:



			Haven't bought it yet, just looking at possibilities! The GVW looks to be roughly the same so I'm guessing it's the same setup as the Mondeo... just downplate the trailer to 1450 ?

Click to expand...

Yes 
The 4X4 Xtrail + single horse trailer seems to be a good choice from posts I have read on here and other sites


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## ROG (4 May 2012)

Towing a single horse with a B licence (no B+E) can get tricky if looking for a 4X4 type of towing vehicle so perhaps these few suggestions might help

VEHICLE 'A' is a Nissan Xtrail 4X4 with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1515
GVW = 2050
Towing = 2000

VEHICLE 'B' is a Kia Sportage AWD with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1678
GVW = 2140
Towing = 1600

These 3 single horse trailers seem to be the most popular but there are others ..... 
1 - BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
2 - CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
3 - IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
As all these manufacturers are still in business then downplating any of those trailers is easy and usually free or very little cost - just call them to sort it 

Set ups:-
A+1 = trailer downplated to 1450 leaves a load of 775 (or 1400 & 725)
A+2 = no downplating leaves a load of 745
A+3 = trailer downplated to 1450 leaves a load of 680 (or 1400 & 630)
B+1 = trailer downplated to 1360 leaves a load of 685 (or 1300 & 625)
B+2 = trailer downplated to 1360 leaves a load of 705 (or 1300 & 645)
B+3 = trailer downplated to 1360 leaves a load of 590 (or 1300 & 530)


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## WelshTilly (4 May 2012)

Hi 

Have i worked this out correctly?? Is there any chance this combo will work without doing my B+E trailer test?? Can I downplate the trailer?? I don't think it will work as the GVW + MAM = 5020

Vehicle Toyota Hilux 

Unladen - 1820
GVW -2680
Towing Capacity - 2250

Trailer - Ifor 505

Unladen - 905
MAM -2340

Want to carry a single 500kg horse

K


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## ROG (4 May 2012)

WelshTilly said:



			Hi 

Have i worked this out correctly?? Is there any chance this combo will work without doing my B+E trailer test?? Can I downplate the trailer?? I don't think it will work as the GVW + MAM = 5020

Vehicle Toyota Hilux 

Unladen - 1820
*GVW -2680*
Towing Capacity - 2250

Trailer - Ifor 505

Unladen - 905
MAM -2340

Want to carry a single 500kg horse

K
		
Click to expand...

It will not work because of the high GVW which only leaves a maximum trailer MAM of 820 kgs

For B licence towing you really need to change both vehicle and trailer because of the high vehicle GVW and the high trailer unladen weight
Downplating a trailer MAM where the trailer has a high unladen weight leaves very little for the load weight


----------



## ROG (4 May 2012)

WelshTilly said:



			Have i worked this out correctly?? Is there any chance this combo will work without doing my B+E trailer test?? Can I downplate the trailer?? I don't think it will work as the GVW + MAM = 5020
GVW -2680
MAM -2340
		
Click to expand...

You folks are getting good at this 

I might get made redundant soon


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## WelshTilly (4 May 2012)

ROG said:



			It will not work because of the high GVW which only leaves a maximum trailer MAM of 820 kgs

For B licence towing you really need to change both vehicle and trailer because of the high vehicle GVW and the high trailer unladen weight
Downplating a trailer MAM where the trailer has a high unladen weight leaves very little for the load weight
		
Click to expand...

Thought as much just needed someone to check I'd done it right.....  got no choice on towing vehicle as its a company truck so have to stick with it....looks like B+ E license test it is then.....6 week wait down here and several people I know have recently been failed for silly things, I wanted to have a couple of lessons and as it appears I'm prob better to turn up in a driving instructors vehicle & trailer however it is getting so cost prohibitive to do this on top of the test fee. .....


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## ROG (4 May 2012)

WelshTilly said:



			... got no choice on towing vehicle as its a company truck so have to stick with it....looks like B+ E license test it is then.....6 week wait down here and several people I know have recently been failed for silly things, I wanted to have a couple of lessons and as it appears I'm prob better to turn up in a driving instructors vehicle & trailer however it is getting so cost prohibitive to do this on top of the test fee. .....
		
Click to expand...

Practice with current set up >>>>
All B licence holders have a B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence

That means they can tow a B+E combination either loaded or empty and on a motorway providing they adhere to these rules:-
Supervising driver must be age 21+ and held B+E for 3+ years
L plates on front of vehicle and rear of trailer
Correct insurance for B+E learner - check with current insurer and in your case the company as well


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## WelshTilly (4 May 2012)

ROG said:



			You folks are getting good at this 

I might get made redundant soon 

Click to expand...


 I think it was by sheer fluke whether I understand what I was saying and the reasons you mentioned is another matter!! That's why there will always be a need for you!!


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## chestnuttyy (5 May 2012)

ROG said:



			Towing a single horse with a B licence (no B+E) can get tricky if looking for a 4X4 type of towing vehicle so perhaps these few suggestions might help

VEHICLE 'A' is a Nissan Xtrail 4X4 with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1515
GVW = 2050
Towing = 2000

VEHICLE 'B' is a Kia Sportage AWD with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1678
GVW = 2140
Towing = 1600

These 3 single horse trailers seem to be the most popular but there are others ..... 
1 - BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
2 - CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
3 - IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
As all these manufacturers are still in business then downplating any of those trailers is easy and usually free or very little cost - just call them to sort it 

Set ups:-
A+1 = trailer downplated to 1450 leaves a load of 775 (or 1400 & 725)
A+2 = no downplating leaves a load of 745
A+3 = trailer downplated to 1450 leaves a load of 680 (or 1400 & 630)
B+1 = trailer downplated to 1360 leaves a load of 685 (or 1300 & 625)
B+2 = trailer downplated to 1360 leaves a load of 705 (or 1300 & 645)
B+3 = trailer downplated to 1360 leaves a load of 590 (or 1300 & 530)
		
Click to expand...

Going for setup A+3 

Do i need any form of special insurance for pulling a trailer with this setup?


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## ROG (5 May 2012)

chestnuttyy said:



			Going for setup A+3 

Do i need any form of special insurance for pulling a trailer with this setup?
		
Click to expand...

Contact your current insurer 

There is probably insurance for third party and fully comp so ask them

Might need special insurance for breakdown and horse recovery 

There are a few threads in the lounge forum on these issues


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## chestnuttyy (6 May 2012)

Are you able to recommend any other vehicles that would be suitable for pulling an Ifor 401 on a B licence? I was looking at X-Trails but struggling to find many within budget (£3k).

Preferably want something fairly economical on fuel too 

Thanks


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## ROG (6 May 2012)

chestnuttyy said:



			Are you able to recommend any other vehicles that would be suitable for pulling an Ifor 401 on a B licence? I was looking at X-Trails but struggling to find many within budget (£3k).

Preferably want something fairly economical on fuel too 

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Not my bag - I know virtually nothing about prices and the economics of vehicles

But I can drive them all very well 

Suggest asking in the new lounge forum but stating the you need a vehicle with a maximum GVW of 2100 and a minimum kerbweight of 1400 so that you can tow a 1400 kgs trailer


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## chestnuttyy (7 May 2012)

What about a Toyota Rav 4 to pull an Ifor 401 (downplated to 1400KG)??

GVW: 1785KG
Max towing weight (braked): 1500KG
Minimum kerb weight: 1425

Or is this going too close to it's limits?


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## ROG (7 May 2012)

chestnuttyy said:



			What about a Toyota Rav 4 to pull an Ifor 401 (downplated to 1400KG)??

GVW: 1785KG
Max towing weight (braked): 1500KG
Minimum kerb weight: 1425

Or is this going too close to it's limits?
		
Click to expand...

Perfectly safe and legal


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## Mince Pie (10 May 2012)

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE

_B_

2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle

_1385kg_

3 - GVW of the towing vehicle

_1875kg (gross weight limit?)_

4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle

_3495kg_

5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres

_1250kg
_
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

_500kg_

Those with set ups that can be driven on a B licence what are you driving? Looking for n estate car that will tow an ancient pony Bahill trailer on short journeys only, be fairly economical and decent in snow. Previously using 2.5 legacy's but would prefer a diesel (and sadly can't afford a boxer diesel scooby!). Was thinking volvo?


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## ROG (10 May 2012)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			1 - What licence they hold - B or BE = _B_
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle = _1385kg_
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle = _1875kg (gross weight limit?)_
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle = _3495kg_
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres = _1250kg
_
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer = _500kg_

Click to expand...

Number 3, the GVW, is the gross weight limit or the maximum that the vehicle can weigh when fully loaded

I assume number 4 is the GTW and not the towing capacity?
If it is then there is likely to be a towing capacity of 1620 (3495-1875=1620) but that is not always the case

*That is perfectly legal for B licence towing* 

Reasons it is legal -
The 1250 trailer MAM is not more than the vehicle unladen weight of 1385
The 1250 trailer MAM added to the vehicle GVW of 1875 is 3125 which is not more than 3500  




Broke_But_Happy said:



			Those with set ups that can be driven on a B licence what are you driving? Looking for n estate car that will tow an ancient pony Bahill trailer on short journeys only, be fairly economical and decent in snow. Previously using 2.5 legacy's but would prefer a diesel (and sadly can't afford a boxer diesel scooby!). Was thinking volvo?
		
Click to expand...

What is the MAM of the Bayhill trailer?

I ask as most are not suitable for the B licence towing rules and they cannot be downplated because Bayhill no longer exists


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## Mince Pie (10 May 2012)

Without looking I would think no more than 1300 kg


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## ROG (10 May 2012)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Without looking I would think no more than 1300 kg
		
Click to expand...

Seems a bit low - I would expect a MAM of over 2000 kgs

MAM means the maximum it can weigh when fully loaded


----------



## Mince Pie (11 May 2012)

Hmm just not sure, it is a tiny trailer and the only way I can use it is with no partition! I'll look when I'm at the yard tomorrow.


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## zoon (15 May 2012)

I have a 1993 Rice Europa trailer - no idea of the MAM I'm afraid, but it is in its original state.  The new Europa has a gross weight of 2300kg according to the brochure.  Not sure if this is the same thing or if my old trailer will be the same.  I will only be towing 1 horse of about 500kg. I have 2 questions - 

1 - is there such thing as a vehicle that will allow me to tow this on a B licence?  

2 - is there a car that I can tow this with (on B or B+E)?  Thinking volvo or similar as don't want a 4x4.  But obviously want it to be legal and safe.


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## ROG (15 May 2012)

zoon said:



			I have a 1993 Rice Europa trailer - no idea of the MAM I'm afraid, but it is in its original state.  The new Europa has a gross weight of 2300kg according to the brochure.  Not sure if this is the same thing or if my old trailer will be the same.  I will only be towing 1 horse of about 500kg. I have 2 questions - 

1 - is there such thing as a vehicle that will allow me to tow this on a B licence?  

2 - is there a car that I can tow this with (on B or B+E)?  Thinking volvo or similar as don't want a 4x4.  But obviously want it to be legal and safe.
		
Click to expand...

1 - no. 
Assuming a MAM of 2300 then it would need downplating by the manufacturer to conform to B licence towing rules

2 - loads of cars can tow this on a B+E licence as the actual weight is going to be around 1500 kgs and many cars have towing capacities capable of that and more
Check out towing capacities here


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## ROG (15 May 2012)

Re your rice trailer - you may be lucky and get the current rice dealers to downplate it CONTACT RICE

It seems your rice trailer weighs about 750 kgs unladen (BUT DOUBLE CHECK THAT PLEASE) so if to can get rice to downplate it to say 1400 MAM then look for a car with these specs - 

Maximum GVW 2100
Minimum Kerb 1400
Towing capacity at least 1400 (so the full trailer MAM of 1400 can be used)

If you can do all that then you can tow on a B licence


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## ROG (15 May 2012)

KidnapMoss said:



			We have an Ifor Williams Hb406 and a Nissan navara

OH is the driver, we normally tow a 14.2 and a 12.1. Quite a lot of the time he sits beside me as I drive, he has passed towing test, I'm due to take mine this summer. My question is can I take the 12.1 out by himself. I have checked and checked the rule book that came with the trailer. I'm a competent trailer driver but obviously need to be legal. The rule book says drivers who passed since 1997 may also drive a car under 3.5 tonne plus a larger braked trailer provided the combo does not exceed 3.5 tonne and the trailer MAM is less than the unloaded weight of the tow car. Trailer would literally have small pony in it, car would just have me and my tack..

..yay, or nay? 

Click to expand...

First thing is - I cannot find a HB406 in the  IFOR range of trailers so please could you check which one you have?

Secondly, there are many navara models but I'll use THIS ONE as it can be used for B licence towing with a decent one horse trailer
Kerb 1515
GVW 1975
towing 1700

If it is that model Navara then it requires a trailer 1500 plated MAM - maximum

I'm guessing you have a 2 horse trailer perhaps a HB506 which is 920 unlladen and 2600 MAM

If both vehicle and trailer are correct then you will need to contact Ifor Williams to have the trailer downplated from 2600 to 1500 and that will allow a payload for the horse of 580 kgs BUT you cannot then use it for two horses unless you get it up-plated again for B+E towing


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## KidnapMoss (15 May 2012)

Thank you ROG - really helpful. Yes its a HB506 (just checked our little owners pack,,,not sure where I got the 4 from, blonde moment methinks!)

Thanks again, will check with OH exactly which model our navara is. 

What does down plating involve exactly?


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## ROG (15 May 2012)

KidnapMoss said:



			What does down plating involve exactly? 

Click to expand...

Contact manufacturer of trailer with the trailer details handy and asking them to assist with reducing the trailer plated MAM

The manufacturer will then give you the info and direct you to their nearest dealer to yourself 

You then take the trailer to that dealer and have a new plate made for it

This is usually free or for a very small admin cost


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## Bramble74 (15 May 2012)

Hi Rog,

Wondering if you can help with a  rather generic question...

I currently have  Nissan Terrano 2.7td (GVW 2700) I tow a Cheval Liberty with one horse @ 460KG.  As the cost of fuel is ever increasing, I would love to look at something a bit smaller.

Do you know of any model Toyota Rav 4 that is capable and legal for towing up to 2,000 KG?  My friend has one and both her and her mechanic swear blind that it is able to do this, I cannot find any that give their specification at over 1,500 maximum braked weight.

Many thanks for any assistance you can give and I appreciate it's a vague question.


----------



## ROG (15 May 2012)

Bramble74 said:



			Hi Rog,

Wondering if you can help with a  rather generic question...

I currently have  Nissan Terrano 2.7td (GVW 2700) I tow a Cheval Liberty with one horse @ 460KG.  As the cost of fuel is ever increasing, I would love to look at something a bit smaller.

Do you know of any model Toyota Rav 4 that is capable and legal for towing up to 2,000 KG?  My friend has one and both her and her mechanic swear blind that it is able to do this, I cannot find any that give their specification at over 1,500 maximum braked weight.

Many thanks for any assistance you can give and I appreciate it's a vague question.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.cuddles.abelgratis.net/toyota.htm#rav407

Toyota RAV4 XT-R 2.2 D-4D 5dr Dimensions
Weights & Capacities 
Kerb Weight KG: 1,650
Gross Weight KG: 2,190
Towing Weight KG: 2,000

NOTE:- If the trailer was downplated to 1300 kgs leaving a load capacity of 645 for the horse then that would be legal for B licence towing


----------



## KidnapMoss (15 May 2012)

ROG said:



			Contact manufacturer of trailer with the trailer details handy and asking them to assist with reducing the trailer plated MAM

The manufacturer will then give you the info and direct you to their nearest dealer to yourself 

You then take the trailer to that dealer and have a new plate made for it

This is usually free or for a very small admin cost
		
Click to expand...

Contacted the dealer we purchased said trailer from but they say it involves changing the hitch 

Spoke to OH the navara weighs 2100kg unloaded that's the kerb weight?

So I'm guessing even with a teeny tiny 12.2 I need OH and his B&E licence?

Sorry for sounding so thick!!!


----------



## ROG (15 May 2012)

KidnapMoss said:



			Contacted the dealer we purchased said trailer from but they say it involves changing the hitch 

Spoke to OH the navara weighs 2100kg unloaded that's the kerb weight?

So I'm guessing even with a teeny tiny 12.2 I need OH and his B&E licence?

Sorry for sounding so thick!!! 

Click to expand...

I've no idea about the hitch - perhaps they could explain why - perhaps by email - idea?

Nissan Navara with 2100 kgs kerb weight and 3210 GVW plus 2600 towing capacity

Max towing weight on a B licence would be 750 kgs max so no good for any horse trailer


----------



## Bramble74 (16 May 2012)

ROG said:



http://www.cuddles.abelgratis.net/toyota.htm#rav407

Toyota RAV4 XT-R 2.2 D-4D 5dr Dimensions
Weights & Capacities 
Kerb Weight KG: 1,650
Gross Weight KG: 2,190
Towing Weight KG: 2,000

NOTE:- If the trailer was downplated to 1300 kgs leaving a load capacity of 645 for the horse then that would be legal for B licence towing
		
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for this Rog, really helpful.  I have a BE licence so am ok.  Off to look for a Rav 4 dimension...


----------



## ROG (16 May 2012)

Bramble74 said:



			Thanks very much for this Rog, really helpful.  I have a BE licence so am ok.  Off to look for a Rav 4 dimension...
		
Click to expand...

Try a google search for - *TOYOTA RAV4 2.2 D-4D* 

They started to make them in 2007 so you might be able to pick up a decent used one


----------



## ROG (17 May 2012)

maisie2011 said:



			looking at getting an estate car to tow - is a merc c200 man enough for an ifor williams & a 400kg pony?
		
Click to expand...

WHICH IS YOUR C200 ESTATE IN THIS LIST?
WHICH IFOR TRAILER IS IT FROM THIS LIST?
With that info I can help you


----------



## maisie2011 (17 May 2012)

not sure which vehicle form the list - the advert says its a 1999 (t reg) C200 elegance estate auto and I have an Ifor Hunter trailer which I think is the same as the 505.


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## ROG (18 May 2012)

maisie2011 said:



			not sure which vehicle form the list - the advert says its a 1999 (t reg) C200 elegance estate auto and I have an Ifor Hunter trailer which I think is the same as the 505.
		
Click to expand...

Having a hard time pinning down thw towing capacity for the Merc but found these two - 
GVW & KERB for this one & KERB & TOWING CAPACITY for this one
So assuming they are correct then we have these specifications - 
Kerb 1335 to 1350
GVW 1845 to 1900
Towing 1500

IFOR HB505 (HUNTER)
Unladen 905
MAM 2340

Pony weight 400 approx

ASSUMING all those vehicle weights are correct especially the 1500 towing capacity then loading the trailer with a 400 kg pony and few other bits will be around 1400 kgs so well within the vehicle 1500 towing capacity for which it has been designed to tow safely

This does require a B+E licence to tow it

With the trailer unladen weight being 905 then downplating it for B licence towing is too close to really bother with but could be done to 1330


----------



## ROG (21 May 2012)

Billie1007 said:



			I know I can read up on this but to be honest every time I have attempted to I have given up as I can't understand the jargon.

So, basically I have a standard license - passed my test in 1998 - not sure if that means anything.

Can I.... tow?

What is my weight limit? I would be driving a Freelander, mare weighs around 550kg - rough guess (I tend to manage her weight by eye - I know I should find out!)

I have no idea what other info you would need. I guess the type of trailer would come into play? I don't have one but I am thinking about it - maybe.

HELP!
		
Click to expand...

YES you can tow on a B only licence but it requires the right vehicle and trailer combination to do so 

Trailer plated MAM weights can be down plated to lower plated MAM weights by the trailer manufacturer simply by calling them and taking the trailer to a local dealer for very little or no cost so they comply with B licence towing for the vehicle being used
Trailer manufacturers do this all the time so your call will not surprise them.

I will need to know which Freelander it is because there are two with different weights
THIS FREELANDER MODEL newer than 2005
Gross Weight 2505 kg
Kerb Weight 1785 kg
Towing Limit (braked) 2000 kg
The Max plated trailer MAM with this model would be 995 kgs so no good for B licence towing as the lightest unladen horse trailer is 655 kgs and with a 550 kgs horse that adds up to 1205 kgs so way more than 995 kgs

OR THIS FREELANDER MODEL 2001 to 2005
Gross vehicle weight 2040 kg
Minimum kerb weight 1457 kg
Max towing weight (braked) 1800 kg
With this model you can have a trailer plated up to 1460 kgs MAM for towing with a B licence

Any of these three single horse trailers (there are others) can be used with the above Freelander for a 600+ kgs horse (550 kgs no problem) but a couple of them would need downplating and I would downplate those to 1450 or 1400 kgs MAM - many downplate to 1400 to be well inside the rules  
BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER

So now its up to you to provide the correct model of Freelander so you can decide if its possible for you to tow a single horse trailer on your B licence 


NOTE:- There are some lightweight double horse trailers which could be downplated for B licence towing with a single horse in them but it gets a little tight on the weights


----------



## Mongoose11 (21 May 2012)

Hi ROG,

Thanks so much for this! I have the 2005 Freelander so the second set of information would be right for me.

Ok, so I guess I need to think about saving up some pennies, persuading husband, working hard enough to warrant showing etc etc etc......

Gosh - is it all worth it 

Really helpful stuff, I am going to have another look through and digest. But so that my little brain doesn't have to work it out myself...

Let's imagine I get a light, one horse trailer. What is the maximum weight my horse could be to legally tow?

Thanks again x

Also, I think I would rather buy a lighter double - resale would be easier I think. Could you recommend one that would fit with my numbers? Edited again as I see your links do provide a double!


----------



## ROG (21 May 2012)

Billie1007 said:



			Hi ROG,

Thanks so much for this! I have the 2005 Freelander so the second set of information would be right for me.

Ok, so I guess I need to think about saving up some pennies, persuading husband, working hard enough to warrant showing etc etc etc......

Gosh - is it all worth it 

Really helpful stuff, I am going to have another look through and digest. But so that my little brain doesn't have to work it out myself...

Let's imagine I get a light, one horse trailer. What is the maximum weight my horse could be to legally tow?

Thanks again x

Also, I think I would rather buy a lighter double - resale would be easier I think. Could you recommend one that would fit with my numbers? Edited again as I see your links do provide a double!
		
Click to expand...

Single horse trailers are fetching a premium these days due to the B licence towing rules so they are easier to find buyers for than doubles

2005 was the changeover year for Freelanders so double check which model you have please

The heaviest of those three single horse trailers when empty/unladen is 770 kgs so if it was that one downplated to 1400 then it can carry a horse weighing 630 kgs


----------



## ROG (21 May 2012)

Downplating double horse trailers for use with one horse for B licence towing gets tricky because of the weights involved

I'll use the common IFOR WILLIAMS HB505 as an example
Unladen weight 905 kgs
MAM 2340 kgs

Lets say that downplating it to 1400 kgs MAM is required for B licence towing
That only leaves 495 kgs for the horse and/or anything else that is needed to be loaded into the trailer


----------



## ROG (21 May 2012)

ROG said:



			2005 was the changeover year for Freelanders so double check which model you have please
		
Click to expand...

Check out THESE FREELANDERS which are for sale and click the DIMENSIONS tab for each one to see the differences in the GVWs etc

It could also depend on model and year

2005 with 2040 GVW

2005 with 2500 GVW


----------



## chestnuttyy (22 May 2012)

Hi, would this combo be legal on a B licence:

Ifor hb401
Suzuki grand vitara 1.6:
GVW: 1750kg
Max towing weight braked: 1600kg
Min kerb weight: 1270kg


----------



## ROG (22 May 2012)

chestnuttyy said:



			Hi, would this combo be legal on a B licence:

Ifor hb401
Suzuki grand vitara 1.6:
GVW: 1750kg
Max towing weight braked: 1600kg
Min kerb weight: 1270kg
		
Click to expand...

HB401
Unladen 770kg
MAM 1600

The trailer needs to be downplated to 1270 maximum MAM which will leave 500kgs for the load/horse

The reason for the dowplating is so that the trailer MAM is not more than the 1270 min kerb weight which is one of the rules for B licence towing

Call Ifor Williams and see if they will downplated it to 1270 because another on here said they have a 1400 downplate limit but that seems odd to me


----------



## chestnuttyy (22 May 2012)

Ahhh ok, of course! No downplating to 1400 is as low as I want to go as my boy is 500kg. Will keep thinking of what car to get!


----------



## ROG (22 May 2012)

chestnuttyy said:



			Ahhh ok, of course! No downplating to 1400 is as low as I want to go as my boy is 500kg. Will keep thinking of what car to get!
		
Click to expand...

Try googling this .... copy & paste the words below

4x4 kgs gvw 2100 kerb 1500 towing

Then have a click on some of the links

You are looking for GVW max 2100 and kerb min 1400 with a towing capacity of at least 1400


----------



## chestnuttyy (22 May 2012)

ROG said:



			Try googling this .... copy & paste the words below

4x4 kgs gvw 2100 kerb 1500 towing

Then have a click on some of the links

You are looking for GVW max 2100 and kerb min 1400 with a towing capacity of at least 1400
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog, will have a look.

Was gonna get a Freelander but now worried about them going wrong... then was looking at X-Trails but they seem to have issues with their turbos... now I don't really know what to look at! Don't have a very big budget


----------



## D66 (23 May 2012)

ROG - Do you know about carriage extensions to trailer towbars?  I have a Sinclair Challenger that I use without the central partition.  It is old, but robust and well cared for, has just had a new floor.  Do I have to use an extension that has been designed by the trailer manufacturer or could I have one designed by an engineer?  
I don't want to sell the trailer unless I have to.


----------



## ROG (23 May 2012)

digger66 said:



			ROG - Do you know about carriage extensions to trailer towbars?  I have a Sinclair Challenger that I use without the central partition.  It is old, but robust and well cared for, has just had a new floor.  Do I have to use an extension that has been designed by the trailer manufacturer or could I have one designed by an engineer?  
I don't want to sell the trailer unless I have to.
		
Click to expand...







I know nothing about them, what they do or how they affect the towing

Perhaps asking about them on the lounge forum will get some responses


----------



## D66 (23 May 2012)

thanks ROG, will do.


----------



## chestnuttyy (26 May 2012)

me again!

I think I've got a combo that will be fine for a B licence... but just wanted to check!!

IFOR HB401 - plated to 1400kg
Freelander:

Gross vehicle weight 2080 kg 
Max towing weight (braked) 1800 kg  
Minimum kerb weight 1619 kg  

 hope I'm right!!!


----------



## ROG (26 May 2012)

chestnuttyy said:



 me again!

I think I've got a combo that will be fine for a B licence... but just wanted to check!!

IFOR HB401 - plated to 1400kg
Freelander:

Gross vehicle weight 2080 kg 
Max towing weight (braked) 1800 kg  
Minimum kerb weight 1619 kg  

 hope I'm right!!!
		
Click to expand...

You are right  - PERFECT  


PS - glad you found an early freelander because the later models have a GVW of over 2500 kgs !!


----------



## Javabb94 (27 May 2012)

So if you have a B licence do you automatically have a B+E provisional?

This would be useful for me as dad is not Always available to tow and mum doesn't like it! She has a pre 97 licence so would that be ok to sit in with me?

We have an Ifor HB506 2011 model 
A Kia Sorrento 54 plate and I only take 1 500kg horse

Would this be legal?
Thanks


----------



## ROG (27 May 2012)

Kirsty+Java said:



			Q1 - So if you have a B licence do you automatically have a B+E provisional?

Q2 - This would be useful for me as dad is not Always available to tow and mum doesn't like it! She has a pre 97 licence so would that be ok to sit in with me?

Q3 - We have an Ifor HB506 2011 model 
A Kia Sorrento 54 plate and I only take 1 500kg horse

Q4 - Would this be legal?
Thanks
		
Click to expand...

A1 - Yes 

A2 - Yes 

A3 - 
KIA SORENTO DIMENSIONS
Kerb 2059
GVW 2600
Towing 2800

HB506
Unladen 920
MAM 2600

A4 - Yes for B+E licence rules


----------



## Javabb94 (27 May 2012)

ROG said:



			A1 - Yes 

A2 - Yes 

A3 - 
KIA SORENTO DIMENSIONS
Kerb 2059
GVW 2600
Towing 2800

HB506
Unladen 920
MAM 2600

A4 - Yes for B+E licence rules 

Click to expand...

thanks ROG! 
I take it this combo wouldnt be legal on a B license only? I always have someone with me at shows so its ok
thanks again


----------



## ROG (27 May 2012)

Kirsty+Java said:



			thanks ROG! 
I take it this combo wouldnt be legal on a B license only?
		
Click to expand...

You are correct - On a B only licence the maximum trailer MAM would be 900 kgs because of the high vehicle GVW of 2600


----------



## ROG (28 May 2012)

Oberon said:



			I am new to trailers and 4X4s....Can I ask you to do the math for me as I struggle with numbers?

My car = 2004, 2.2ll, Tdi, Xtrail
Trailer = 2004, IW401 (no front ramp).
Horse = 650kg

I was pleasantly surprised how easily she tows as I was a bit dubious (being a bit of a Landi person). Is she at her limit already, or would she be capable of towing two horses?
		
Click to expand...

The IFOR HB401 is a single horse trailer
Unladen 770
MAM 1600

the nearest Nissan Xtrail  I could find had these specs 
Kerb 1525
GVW 2050
Towing capacity 2000

On a B licence the trailer would need downplating to 1450 max which allows for a horse of 680 max

On a B+E licence the trailer would not need downplating and you could have a 2 horse trailer but the unladen weight of that trailer plus the weight of the two horses cannot be more than 2000 (the towing capacity) - you can have a trailer with a greater MAM than the towing capacity but will still be restricted by the towing capacity (actual weight)


----------



## Oberon (28 May 2012)

I passed my test in 1995.

Does that make a difference?

So what you are saying is that I am OK with the current set up, but a double trailer and two horses would be pushing it?


----------



## ROG (28 May 2012)

Oberon said:



			I passed my test in 1995.

Does that make a difference?

So what you are saying is that I am OK with the current set up, but a double trailer and two horses would be pushing it?
		
Click to expand...

pre 1997 means you have a B+E licence

Two horse trailers are about 900 kgs unladen and about 2400 kgs MAM
Horses are approx 500 kgs
So with two horses that is about 1900 kgs which is fine for the MAM but tight for a 2000 kgs towing capacity

With two horses at 550 kgs then not a thing could be loaded with them if 2000 towing capacity


----------



## Oberon (28 May 2012)

ROG said:



			pre 1997 means you have a B+E licence

Two horse trailers are about 900 kgs unladen and about 2400 kgs MAM
Horses are approx 500 kgs
So with two horses that is about 1900 kgs which is fine for the MAM but tight for a 2000 kgs towing capacity

With two horses at 550 kgs then not a thing could be loaded with them if 2000 towing capacity
		
Click to expand...

What's MAM?


----------



## ROG (28 May 2012)

Oberon said:



			What's MAM?
		
Click to expand...

MAM or GVW are what the trailer or vehicle can weigh when fully loaded


----------



## Oberon (28 May 2012)

ROG said:



			MAM or GVW are what the trailer or vehicle can weigh when fully loaded
		
Click to expand...

Sorry. I understand GVW

Thank you very much for your help.

I didn't know this clinic existed.


----------



## ROG (28 May 2012)

Oberon said:



			Sorry. I understand GVW

Thank you very much for your help.

I didn't know this clinic existed.
		
Click to expand...

If we all knew everything then life would be boring!!

There were too many stickies in the new lounge forum for it to be in there


----------



## ROG (30 May 2012)

natalie_pitchers said:



			hi all . i have been doing a lot of research as ive decided to get some form of transport. ive gone against the idea of a 3.5t as it was to expensive to insure me as im 21 and to be quite frank it was quite an expensive route.
 I have found a single cheval liberte which is lightweight and i have a 16.0hh TB to travel . as these trailers arnt heavy they can be towed with a estate car however im thinking about getting a kia sportage as my uncle has one for sale and its a great runner . 
does any one have a kia sportage they tow with~? i'd only be going to local shows and maby once in a blue moon down the motorway?
thanks!! 

Click to expand...

Towing with this set up on a B licence -

CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
Unladen 655
*MAM 1400*

*Contact trailer manufacturer to have trailer downplated if needed (free or very little cost)*


Kia Sportage (AWD) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1678
GVW = 2140
Towing = 1600
*Max trailer plated MAM = 1360 kgs*

Before taking this answer as correct please obtain the specifications for the Sportage you are thinking of getting


----------



## ROG (30 May 2012)

* TEAM SAM * said:



			I am currently looking for a trailor I will only ever be towing 1 horse but I do not really want a single trailor... I am trying to get a trailor which is really leight so i do not go over the 3.5tonne rule after lots of research i have worked out the if weight of my car horse and trailor can reach below 3.5tonne i do not have to take my trailor test..

MY HORSE IS 17HH BUT SLIGHT BUILD PLEASE ANY ADVICE ON THE LIGHEST TRAILOR WOULD BE VERY HELPFULL.....


Thanks Sam
		
Click to expand...

BATESON 2 HORSE TRAILER
7 foot headroom
Unladen 675 kgs
MAM 1700

Suggest contacting Bateson and have MAM reduced to 1400 for B towing rules BUT that depends on what vehicle you are towing it with

*IMPORTANT QUESTION* - what are the specifications/weight dimensions for your vehicle? - in KGs please
Kerb weight ?
GVW ?
Towing capacity ?



If you are intent on doing the B+E then this may be useful - 

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways.
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Many will find that passing the once in a lifetime B+E test is their best option so here is some info on that test:-

*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise (old measurements) - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos


----------



## * TEAM SAM * (30 May 2012)

Hi which bateson is that?

Weight:2170 kg (4760,08 pounds)

Towing weight:2300 kg (5045,25 pounds)


----------



## * TEAM SAM * (30 May 2012)

* TEAM SAM * said:



			Hi which bateson is that?

Weight:2170 kg (4760,08 pounds)

Towing weight:2300 kg (5045,25 pounds)
		
Click to expand...

sorry i have a bmw x5


----------



## ROG (30 May 2012)

* TEAM SAM * said:



			wow great so i just need to post on there or can you do it here im abit confused on how i find out all those weights

my horse is 500kg
car is x5 55 plate
and at the moment i have use of a 505 ifor williams

Thanks Sam
		
Click to expand...

IFOR HB505
Unladen 905
MAM 2340

So many BMW X5 models that I need to narrow it down please

So far this is illegal for B licence towing due to the high trailer MAM


----------



## ROG (30 May 2012)

* TEAM SAM * said:



			Hi which bateson is that?

Weight:2170 kg (4760,08 pounds)

Towing weight:2300 kg (5045,25 pounds)
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Sam you have lost me with those figures 

What are they refering to please?


----------



## * TEAM SAM * (30 May 2012)

is this because of ifor williams

it is x5 sport 3.0d 55 plate


----------



## * TEAM SAM * (30 May 2012)

ROG said:



			Sorry Sam you have lost me with those figures 

What are they refering to please?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry those are weights i found of net for x5 ???


----------



## ROG (30 May 2012)

* TEAM SAM * said:



			Sorry those are weights i found of net for x5 ???
		
Click to expand...

I also found those but they refer to only one X5 model and there are others so which model X5 is it please

There is a list - see 2002 list - HERE

Is it any of those in that list?


----------



## * TEAM SAM * (30 May 2012)

ROG said:



			I also found those but they refer to only one X5 model and there are others so which model X5 is it please

There is a list - see 2002 list - HERE

Is it any of those in that list?
		
Click to expand...

yes last one 

Kerb Weight KG 85% Weight KG Max Ball Weight KG Max Towing Weight KG 

 2170 1844 120 2700


----------



## ROG (30 May 2012)

* TEAM SAM * said:



			yes last one 

Kerb Weight KG 85% Weight KG Max Ball Weight KG Max Towing Weight KG 

 2170 1844 120 2700
		
Click to expand...

I am having a problem finding the GVW for that model but I can estimate it.
BMW X5 3.0D
Kerb 2170
GVW 2600 estimated
Towing 2700

IFOR HB 505
Unladen 905
MAM 2340

No way this vehicle or trailer can be towed on a B licence

The GVW of the vehicle and the MAM of the trailer are way too high - they add up to about 5000 kgs which is way over the 3500 limit


----------



## ROG (30 May 2012)

BATESON 2 HORSE TRAILER
7 foot headroom
Unladen 675 kgs
MAM 1700 - reduce to 1400 MAM by contacting Bateson

Toyota Rav 4 (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1425
GVW = 1785
Max towing weight = 1500
Max trailer plated MAM = 1425 kgs


Nissan X trail (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1515
GVW = 2050
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs

Kia Sportage (AWD) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1678
*GVW = 2140* - *reduce trailer MAM to 1360 for this vehicle*
Towing = 1600
Max trailer plated MAM = 1360 kgs

FREELANDER 1 (2001 - 2005)
Unladen/kerb = 1500
GVW = 2040
Towing = 1800
Max trailer plated MAM = 1460 kgs


Any of the above vehicles with that Bateson will leave at least 650 kgs for the horse/load


----------



## * TEAM SAM * (31 May 2012)

ROG said:



BATESON 2 HORSE TRAILER
7 foot headroom
Unladen 675 kgs
MAM 1700 - reduce to 1400 MAM by contacting Bateson

Toyota Rav 4 (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1425
GVW = 1785
Max towing weight = 1500
Max trailer plated MAM = 1425 kgs


Nissan X trail (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1515
GVW = 2050
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs

Kia Sportage (AWD) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1678
*GVW = 2140* - *reduce trailer MAM to 1360 for this vehicle*
Towing = 1600
Max trailer plated MAM = 1360 kgs

FREELANDER 1 (2001 - 2005)
Unladen/kerb = 1500
GVW = 2040
Towing = 1800
Max trailer plated MAM = 1460 kgs


Any of the above vehicles with that Bateson will leave at least 650 kgs for the horse/load
		
Click to expand...

So my car is too heavy??? for any trailer i have the car its the trailer i have a option with ? 

Thanks for your help


----------



## ROG (31 May 2012)

* TEAM SAM * said:



			So my car is too heavy??? for any trailer i have the car its the trailer i have a option with ? 

Thanks for your help
		
Click to expand...

The rules for B licence towing mean that the calculation is this -
3500 minus the car GVW leaves the MAM amount for the trailer

Lets say you have a car with 2500 GVW
3500-2500=1000
1000 maximum trailer MAM and as the lightest horse trailer I know of is 655 kgs unladen/empty then that leaves only 345 kgs for a horse etc !!


----------



## * TEAM SAM * (31 May 2012)

ROG said:



			The rules for B licence towing mean that the calculation is this -
3500 minus the car GVW leaves the MAM amount for the trailer

Lets say you have a car with 2500 GVW
3500-2500=1000
1000 maximum trailer MAM and as the lightest horse trailer I know of is 655 kgs unladen/empty then that leaves only 345 kgs for a horse etc !!
		
Click to expand...

 looks like ill be doing my test do u do training noticed your leicester im measham ?????


----------



## ROG (31 May 2012)

* TEAM SAM * said:



 looks like ill be doing my test do u do training noticed your leicester im measham ?????
		
Click to expand...

No I dont but I can recommend 0116 2877692 and tell Dorian or Rick that ROG says Hi

If you were nearer then I could have helped you out privately


----------



## * TEAM SAM * (31 May 2012)

ROG said:



			No I dont but I can recommend 0116 2877692 and tell Dorian or Rick that ROG says Hi

If you were nearer then I could have helped you out privately
		
Click to expand...

thanks will do ... i am leicestershire but its a big place lol xx

Thanks again for all ur help x


----------



## icemaiden113 (31 May 2012)

Please help!

I have looked at the truck and trailer and still don't know what the weights are etc so have no idea!

The truck is a Landrover Defender 110 td5 station wagon and trailer an ifor williams 505

How much weight can i tow?


----------



## ROG (31 May 2012)

icemaiden113 said:



			Please help!

I have looked at the truck and trailer and still don't know what the weights are etc so have no idea!

The truck is a Landrover Defender 110 td5 station wagon and trailer an ifor williams 505

How much weight can i tow?
		
Click to expand...

A B+E licence will be required for this set up

Using the Landrover Defender 110 td5 station wagon specifications from HERE and also HERE
Kerb 1950
GVW 3050
Towing 3500

IFOR HB505 SPECS
Unladen 905
MAM 2340

The trailer can be legally loaded with 1435 kgs

Does that answer your query?


----------



## Django Pony (31 May 2012)

Hi ROG,

I've been offered a Volkswagen Touran 1.6 TDI BlueMotion Tech S 5d as a company car, and wondered if it will be ok to tow my trailer? Here's a link to the car on Parkers http://goo.gl/DhrqU. My trailer weighs 700kg. I would only tow 1 horse who weighs about 480kg.
I don't currently have my B+E entitlement, but am taking lessons very soon to do my test.
Do you think it would be practical and tow effectively?
Thanks in advance!


----------



## ROG (31 May 2012)

JustJasper said:



			Hi ROG,

I've been offered a Volkswagen Touran 1.6 TDI BlueMotion Tech S 5d as a company car, and wondered if it will be ok to tow my trailer? Here's a link to the car on Parkers http://goo.gl/DhrqU. My trailer weighs 700kg. I would only tow 1 horse who weighs about 480kg.
I don't currently have my B+E entitlement, but am taking lessons very soon to do my test.
Do you think it would be practical and tow effectively?
Thanks in advance!
		
Click to expand...

B licence

YOUR VEHICLE SPECS
kerb 1544
GVW 2180
Towing 1500

Max trailer plated MAM is 1320 kg for B licence towing
1320+2180=3500

As your trailer weighs 700 unladen and the horse weighs 500 appx then having a trailer plated at say 1300 leaves 100 kgs spare

What is your trailer currently plated at?

What make is the trailer?


----------



## Django Pony (31 May 2012)

ROG said:



			B licence

YOUR VEHICLE SPECS
kerb 1544
GVW 2180
Towing 1500

Max trailer plated MAM is 1320 kg for B licence towing
1320+2180=3500

As your trailer weighs 700 unladen and the horse weighs 500 appx then having a trailer plated at say 1300 leaves 100 kgs spare

What is your trailer currently plated at?

What make is the trailer?
		
Click to expand...

Hi,
It's a Sinclair front unload trailer. I'm not sure what it's plated at, how do I find out? Also, how do I get it plated at 1300kg?
Sorry if I'm being really thick here!
JJ


----------



## ROG (31 May 2012)

JustJasper said:



			Hi,
It's a Sinclair front unload trailer. I'm not sure what it's plated at, how do I find out?
Sorry if I'm being really thick here!
JJ
		
Click to expand...

It is usually on a silver plate attatched to somewhere on the trailer

Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS to determine the MAM.
A rating of 66 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1200 kgs.

I believe sinclair trailers are not trading any more so getting it downplated is impossible however, if there is no plate (ahem!! cough!!) then changing the tyres for a lower tyre rating will reduce the MAM


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## Django Pony (31 May 2012)

ROG said:



			It is usually on a silver plate attatched to somewhere on the trailer

Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS to determine the MAM.
A rating of 66 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1200 kgs.

I believe sinclair trailers are not trading any more so getting it downplated is impossible however, if there is no plate (ahem!! cough!!) then changing the tyres for a lower tyre rating will reduce the MAM
		
Click to expand...

I see, so if it didn't have a plate and I had 4 tyres put on with a load rating of 69, it would have a MAM of 1300kg? 
How easy is it to change the tyres, would doing so affect the trailer in any way?


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## ROG (31 May 2012)

JustJasper said:



			I see, so if it didn't have a plate and I had 4 tyres put on with a load rating of 69, it would have a MAM of 1300kg? 
How easy is it to change the tyres, would doing so affect the trailer in any way?
		
Click to expand...

How to find tyre load ratings
Not a technician but I would not have thought that it would affect the handling if the tyres are the same size

4 @ rating 69 = 1300kgs


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## Django Pony (31 May 2012)

ROG said:



How to find tyre load ratings
Not a technician but I would not have thought that it would affect the handling if the tyres are the same size
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for all your help ROG!


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## ROG (31 May 2012)

JustJasper said:



			Thanks for all your help ROG! 

Click to expand...

no prob - thats why I do this 

Does this mean you are not now doing the B+E?


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## Django Pony (31 May 2012)

ROG said:



			no prob - thats why I do this 

Does this mean you are not now doing the B+E?
		
Click to expand...

I'm going to have a look at the trailer tomorrow, so see if it has a plate and if so what it is plated at, then I'll go from there. 
I'd still have a few towing lessons even if I don't have to do my test, just to make sure I know what I'm doing, but I'll be well chuffed if I don't have to sit the test! 
Thanks again!


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## ROG (31 May 2012)

OOH - just seen this thread is now over 500 posts


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## frannieuk (2 June 2012)

Hi ROG,

I have a pre-1997 licence and am currently driving a BMW X1 S-drive 20d (max towing capacity 1800kg). What I want to do is get a Bateson Deauville (unladen 860kg) and tow 1 biggish horse in it (650kg). Would I therefore need to get the trailer down plated?

Many thanks in advance,
Frannie

ETA information!


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## ROG (2 June 2012)

frannieuk said:



			Hi ROG,

I have a pre-1997 licence and am currently driving a BMW X1 S-drive (max towing capacity 1800kg). What I want to do is get a Bateson Deauville (unladen 860kg) and tow 1 biggish horse in it (650kg). Would I therefore need to get the trailer down plated?

Many thanks in advance,
Frannie
		
Click to expand...

NO

There is no legal requirement that states the plated MAM of a trailer cannot be more than the manufacturers towing capacity for the vehicle

There are some rumours doing the rounds on the internet saying otherwise which many are starting to believe - those rumours say something like "The potential is there to exceed the towing capcity" or similar wording to that.

The manufacturers towing capcity refers to the actual weight of the empty trailer plus the load being towed

With a 1800 towing capacity and a (pre 97) B+E licence you can tow a trailer with a 3500 kgs plated MAM but when loaded it should not exceed 1800 kgs


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## frannieuk (2 June 2012)

ROG, that's marvellous - thank you for clearing that up, much appreciated!


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## tallyho! (2 June 2012)

ROG said:



			OOH - just seen this thread is now over 500 posts  

Click to expand...

Flippin 'eck!!!! 

I'd just like to say cheers ROG, you're a legend. Here's to 500 more...


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## nikCscott (3 June 2012)

Amazing thread thank you

Here are my vitals...

Licence                   - Prov entitlement B&E
Unladen tow car       - 1665 (LR 90 TD5)
GVW                      - 2400
GTW                      - 3500
Plated MAM             - 2700 (ifor 510)
Unladen trailer        - 1000

+ 1x horse of 650 max
Awaits with one eye open and fingers crossed........


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## nikCscott (3 June 2012)

........Doubt it is legal but as I'm currently borrowing my Dad's defender if i bought another vehicle (heavier perhaps) could I get around it? I have had some trailer lessons and unfortunately 'just' failed my test on Tuesday and have a summer full of kids shows (pony 250kgs)


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## ROG (3 June 2012)

nikCscott said:



			Amazing thread thank you

Here are my vitals...

Licence                   - Prov entitlement B&E
Unladen tow car       - 1665 (LR 90 TD5)
GVW                      - 2400
*TOWING CAPACITY ( not GTW)*  - 3500
Plated MAM             - 2700 (ifor 510)
Unladen trailer        - 1000

+ 1x horse of 650 max
Awaits with one eye open and fingers crossed........
		
Click to expand...

On a B licence its a no go   because the high vehicle GVW of 2400 means a maximum trailer plated MAM of 1100 kgs which is no good for horse trailer towing because the lightest single horse trailer I know of is about 650 kgs leaving only about 450kgs for the load/horse

Perfectly OK for B+E provisional towing and the trailer loaded with 1700 kgs

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways.
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


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## ROG (3 June 2012)

nikCscott said:



			........Doubt it is legal but as I'm currently borrowing my Dad's defender if i bought another vehicle (heavier perhaps) could I get around it? I have had some trailer lessons and unfortunately 'just' failed my test on Tuesday and have a summer full of kids shows (pony 250kgs) 

Click to expand...

What you need is a lighter spec vehicle and a lighter spec trailer

BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER

Contact trailer manufacturer to have trailer downplated if needed (free or very little cost)

Toyota Rav 4 (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1425
GVW = 1785
Max towing weight = 1500
Max trailer plated MAM = 1425 kgs


Nissan X trail (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1515
GVW = 2050
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs

Kia Sportage (AWD) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1678
GVW = 2140
Towing = 1600
Max trailer plated MAM = 1360 kgs

FREELANDER 1 (2001 - 2005)
Unladen/kerb = 1500
GVW = 2040
Towing = 1800
Max trailer plated MAM = 1460 kgs


Any of the above vehicles with any of the trailers will leave at least 550 kgs for the horse/load


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## wipeout (3 June 2012)

tallyho! said:





I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "


Click to expand...

Right, I think these are the numbers I need, some help would be appreciated please - How much weight can I put in this trailer?

1. B+E
2. 1840
3. 2510
4. 2800
5. 2700
6. 1000

Thanks


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## ROG (4 June 2012)

wipeout said:



			Right, I think these are the numbers I need, some help would be appreciated please - How much weight can I put in this trailer?

1. B+E
2. 1840
3. 2510
4. 2800
5. 2700
6. 1000

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

You can load the trailer with 1700 kgs
2700 minus 1000 = 1700

Mitsubishi shogun/pajero has a max towing capacity of 2800
Ifor HB510 has a MAM of 2700
The LOWER of those weights is what a B+E licence holder must use

If the towing capacity had been say 2500 then the max load for the trailer would have been 1500 kgs (2500-1000=1500)


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## rockysmum (4 June 2012)

Hi Rog

A completely non horsey question for you.

Not for me, I haven't completely lost the plot 

If someone wanted to tow a track day car, I believe just high performance standard cars on a car trailer would they need the trailer test.

The towing vehicle in question is a Defender 2.5 diesel.

Dont have any details of the car or the car trailer as at the moment its just an idea that a member of my family has.

I'm hoping it wont involve me having to tow the thing.


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## quirky (4 June 2012)

Can I ask a different type of question?

I have a pre 97 license and was 'taught', as such, to tow by a 'been doing it for years' old man.

He taught me that with a horse in the trailer, that braking should be avoided so as to give the horse a smooth ride. ie.slow down through gears on approach to a junction and brake gently when necessary. Also to think about trailer placement/speed when going round corners roundabouts etc.
I have travelled like this for years and all my horses have travelled calmly.

Having sold my trailer, due to OH selling towing vehicle , I ventured out with somebody who has taken a trailer test. I was shocked at the driving style, as was my horse, who struggled to stay upright and came off sweating from her ears downwards .

I asked the driver if when they took their trailer lessons did they tailor them to pulling livestock, I was surprised at a no answer. 

So, is it just me, or should we aim to drive differently with livestock on board? And shouldn't those being given trailer lessons tell the instructors that they are intending to pull livestock so they can be instructed accordingly?


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## rockysmum (4 June 2012)

quirky said:



			So, is it just me, or should we aim to drive differently with livestock on board? And shouldn't those being given trailer lessons tell the instructors that they are intending to pull livestock so they can be instructed accordingly?
		
Click to expand...

This discussion came up on a Landy forum when I was getting advice on how which one to buy.

They were saying power/speed/uprated braking was important.

I actually said that my aim when towing was not to brake at all.  Doing it right you need to read the road, a bit like motor bike riders have to.  Avoid braking at all costs.  Same with cornering, get the angles and speed right.

If its not being taught its no wonder so many horses are bad to travel.


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## ROG (4 June 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Hi Rog

A completely non horsey question for you.

Not for me, I haven't completely lost the plot 

If someone wanted to tow a track day car, I believe just high performance standard cars on a car trailer would they need the trailer test.

The towing vehicle in question is a Defender 2.5 diesel.

Dont have any details of the car or the car trailer as at the moment its just an idea that a member of my family has.

I'm hoping it wont involve me having to tow the thing.
		
Click to expand...

THIS VEHICLE?
GVW 2480
TOWING 3500

Taking the basic kerb weight of a car as 1500 kgs and the car trailer at say 500 kgs then that is 2000 kgs and we have not got to the trailer plated MAM yet !!

With a GVW of 2480 that only leaves a max trailer MAM of 1020 for B licence towing so thats not going to work

A B licence holder can drive it under B+E provisional rules with you sitting next to them


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## ROG (4 June 2012)

quirky said:



			Can I ask a different type of question?

I have a pre 97 license and was 'taught', as such, to tow by a 'been doing it for years' old man.

He taught me that with a horse in the trailer, that braking should be avoided so as to give the horse a smooth ride. ie.slow down through gears on approach to a junction and brake gently when necessary. Also to think about trailer placement/speed when going round corners roundabouts etc.
I have travelled like this for years and all my horses have travelled calmly.

Having sold my trailer, due to OH selling towing vehicle , I ventured out with somebody who has taken a trailer test. I was shocked at the driving style, as was my horse, who struggled to stay upright and came off sweating from her ears downwards .

I asked the driver if when they took their trailer lessons did they tailor them to pulling livestock, I was surprised at a no answer. 

So, is it just me, or should we aim to drive differently with livestock on board? And shouldn't those being given trailer lessons tell the instructors that they are intending to pull livestock so they can be instructed accordingly?
		
Click to expand...

These days all vehicles are deigned to be slowed down by the brakes alone by using a smooth application of the brake pedal

Every time a gear is changed there is the possibility of the 'jerk' when a new gear is engaged and it means taking a hand off of the steering wheel which is less safe than having two on the wheel for better control

A lot of the 'old crew' learnt on vehicles with drum brakes which could heat up and become less effective or fail
That is not true for todays disc brakes

Those doing driver, including trailer, training etc are now taught to slow down as I have described


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## ROG (4 June 2012)

rockysmum said:



			I actually said that my aim when towing was not to brake at all.  Doing it right you need to read the road, a bit like motor bike riders have to.  Avoid braking at all costs.  Same with cornering, get the angles and speed right.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on 

You sound like you have been on an advanced driver training course?


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## rockysmum (4 June 2012)

ROG said:



			Spot on 

You sound like you have been on an advanced driver training course?
		
Click to expand...

No, used to own motorbikes


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## ROG (4 June 2012)

rockysmum said:



			No, used to own motorbikes  

Click to expand...

You were describing the advanced M/C techniques where the gears are used due to the power to weight ratios instead of brakes which when used on two wheels can have a detrimental affect

With 4 or more wheels on a modern vehicle the system is a little different in that the brakes and not the gears are designed for slowing the vehicles

In all cases the best actions are just to let the machine slow down on it own by excellent forward observation and planning which is what you stated earlier 

I am now straying into my other passion of advanced driving so I had better leave it there before going into pages and pages of it .... back to towing licence and weight issues me thinks ...


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## wipeout (4 June 2012)

ROG said:



			You can load the trailer with 1700 kgs
2700 minus 1000 = 1700

Mitsubishi shogun/pajero has a max towing capacity of 2800
Ifor HB510 has a MAM of 2700
The LOWER of those weights is what a B+E licence holder must use

If the towing capacity had been say 2500 then the max load for the trailer would have been 1500 kgs (2500-1000=1500)
		
Click to expand...

Thanks very much ROG, so I've got quite a bit to play with then. It's not a Mitsubishi but a good explanation, thank you.


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## ROG (4 June 2012)

wipeout said:



			It's not a Mitsubishi
		
Click to expand...

DARN!!

I put those weights into a google search and all that came up was mitsi shogun or pajero  - not that it makes any difference to the answer


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## ester (4 June 2012)

quirky I did my trailer test and certainly did not tow the trailer then like I would with a horse on board, essentially the test is to ensure that you are safe on the road with one and not that you can keep an animal safe in one. . I did point out to instructor that I would not be doing certain things (getting up to speed limit quite as quickly/corners etc) the same when I had a horse on board. . . she agreed but it isn't how to pass your test  

With the ponies I aim to brake as little as possible.. I get dreadfully travel sick myself so know what makes for a smoother ride!


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## ROG (7 June 2012)

_I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - Towing capacity (and/or GTW) of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "_


*I think these are the numbers I need

1. B+E
2. 1840
3. 2510
4. 2800
5. 2700
6. 1000*

The above info makes an answer very easy for me but I can often work out the figures if the exact models for the vehicle and trailer are given


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## ROG (11 June 2012)

billylula said:



			Well, at the moment we only have one 13.2hh NF pony, and the pressing issue is getting him to Pony Club Rallies! So any advice you can give me on what we may need to just tow him so that I can tow alone would be brilliant!

BUT I am looking for a horse for me so that I can do fun rides and small shows so eventually we'd have to have something that could pull two OR we may get another small pony for my younger children.
		
Click to expand...

I know from your other thread (click link in quote above) that you are looking for something about £4k and possibly towing on a B licence
Nissan Xtrail 4X4 bit over budget at £4495
Unladen/kerb = 1515
GVW = 2050
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs

With one of the SINGLE horse trailers below which may need downplating to 1450 and using that Nissan Xtrail would be legal for B licence towing

BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER

There are some lightweight TWO horse trailers around but we need to stay within the 1450 MAM limit with that Nissan as a tow vehicle so if the TWO HORSE TRAILER weighs 675 kgs empty/unladen then that leaves 775 kgs for the horses 

Contact trailer manufacturer to have trailer downplated if needed (free or very little cost)


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## shellonabeach (11 June 2012)

I just wanted to say thank you ROG for all the information you keep updating on the towing rules.

I taught myself and took the towing test using my own 4x4 and horsebox a few years ago and only failed on the emergency stop, which I found out last year had been scrapped for the independant drive!  After seeing the reverse area had downsized from one of your posts I decided to find an instructor (I could not face taking my own rig around the city centre again and have a lot of naughty driving habits I needed to iron out) and get the test done again before anything else changed and thankfully passed last week 

My own little rig which I towed on a B license (shortwheel base Fourtrak and downrated Cheval Liberte 1003) will soon be getting sold and replaced with a larger set-up


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## ROG (11 June 2012)

shellonabeach said:



			I just wanted to say thank you ROG for all the information you keep updating on the towing rules.

I taught myself and took the towing test using my own 4x4 and horsebox a few years ago and only failed on the emergency stop, which I found out last year had been scrapped for the independant drive!  After seeing the reverse area had downsized from one of your posts I decided to find an instructor (I could not face taking my own rig around the city centre again and have a lot of naughty driving habits I needed to iron out) and get the test done again before anything else changed and thankfully passed last week 

My own little rig which I towed on a B license (shortwheel base Fourtrak and downrated Cheval Liberte 1003) will soon be getting sold and replaced with a larger set-up 

Click to expand...

Thanks for those kind words and WELL DONE for passing the B+E test


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## billylula (11 June 2012)

Thank you ROG, that is one of the most helpful things I have ever learned from a forum of any description


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## bunnereeny (11 June 2012)

I took my test in 2005 and have had my provisional since 2000.

Does this mean that as long as I have someone with me that has a B+E lisence I can tow with L plates??


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## ROG (11 June 2012)

bunnereeny said:



			I took my test in 2005 and have had my provisional since 2000.

Does this mean that as long as I have someone with me that has a B+E lisence I can tow with L plates??
		
Click to expand...

If you mean B provisional since 2000 and passed B test in 2005 then yes you can 

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Many will find that passing the once in a lifetime B+E test is their best option so here is some info on that test:-

*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise (old measurements) - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos


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## bunnereeny (11 June 2012)

ROG said:



			If you mean B provisional since 2000 and passed B test in 2005 then yes you can 

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Many will find that passing the once in a lifetime B+E test is their best option so here is some info on that test:-

*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise (old measurements) - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos
		
Click to expand...


thank you, i'm not convinced by these laws you know. it means my mother (never towed a thing in her life) can "supervise" me who as been towing things around on farms etc since i was big enough to reach pedals purely because of when she took her test. i think if they are going to introduce a towing test it should be compulsary across the board.


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## ROG (11 June 2012)

bunnereeny said:



			thank you, i'm not convinced by these laws you know. it means my mother (never towed a thing in her life) can "supervise" me who as been towing things around on farms etc since i was big enough to reach pedals purely because of when she took her test. i think if they are going to introduce a towing test it should be compulsary across the board.
		
Click to expand...

Another weird legal thing - 
The supervising driver does not have to be insured - only the person who is driving !!


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## ROG (12 June 2012)

kezz86 said:



			Hi all,

I can't tow (yet) but my OH has now had his towing licence for 4 months and has been towing he's racing car to the track and so gain a whole load of experience in this time.

He tows his race car which is a little Lotus Elise on an enclosed trailer with my BMW 330d auto estate (2001 plate).

Would this car be good enough to tow one horse (15.3hh cleveland bay) in a trailer? 
(have no trailer at the moment so if this is possible trailer suggestions welcome (I believe if it is possible the trailer would need to be lightweight)

My OH is adament that this car is up to the job for one horse but I'm just not convinced...

I'd appreciate comments both positive and negative thank you!
		
Click to expand...

DOES THIS BMW 330d (2006) HAVE THE SAME SPECS AS YOUR 2001 MODEL?
KERB 1615
GVW 2155
TOWING MAX 1800

Assuming those weight are correct for YOUR BMW then using one of these trailers but downplated by contacting manufacturer (little or no cost) will work for B licence towing like this .....

BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER

Downplate any one of those to maximum of 1345 MAM (2155+1345=3500)
BATESON leaves 670 kgs for load/horse
CHEVAL leaves 690 kgs for load/horse
HB401 leaves 575 kgs for load/horse

This reply is not definitive for your situation because I really need the weights for your BMW


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## kezz86 (12 June 2012)

BMW	3 Series Touring	330 D SE - Kerbweight - 1690Kg, Towing capacity- 1800kg, Towing Capacity (Lbs)- 3968

I believe these figures are correct for my car (taken from a caravan site I haven't checked with OH yet as am at work but I'm impatient and want to find out!)


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## ROG (12 June 2012)

kezz86 said:



			BMW	3 Series Touring	330 D SE - Kerbweight - 1690Kg, Towing capacity- 1800kg, Towing Capacity (Lbs)- 3968

I believe these figures are correct for my car (taken from a caravan site I haven't checked with OH yet as am at work but I'm impatient and want to find out!)
		
Click to expand...

Thjat is two weights out of the three - I still need the GVW

I suspect the GVW will be about 2200 kgs but await your figures

If you have the handbook or the registered keepers V5 document handy then they may be in there


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## ROG (12 June 2012)

BMW 3 Series Touring 330d SE Auto year unknown
Kerb Weight 1690 kg
Gross Weight 2155 kg
Towing Limit (braked) 1800 kg

If it has those weights then the maximum trailer MAM for B licence towing is still 1345 kgs 1345+2155=3500

That being the case then lets take the IFOR HB401 as our example single horse trailer
HB401 is 770 unladen and has a MAM of 1600

Need to contact IFOR Wiliams to have it downplated to 1345 and that leaves it with a load capacity of 575 kgs for the horse etc

As most horses tend to be about 500 kgs then that will be fine for B licence towing with the BMW

I have heard the IFOR will not downplate below 1400 but I cannot think that is really the case as there are so many towing under B licence rules these days


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## sidesaddlegirl (14 June 2012)

Hi Rog,

I'm trying to get my head around all the towing laws and think I may have sussed it? If I simplify things for myself, here is my understanding (please tell me if I'm WAY off!)..

If you passed your test before 1997, you can tow a trailer up to what your particular car's particular braked towing capacity is (i.e. my OH who got his license in 1991, can tow whatever in our 2ltr diesel car up to 1300kg braked- so unladen weight of trailer plus whatever the weight of the animal inside it has to be under 1300kgs). 


If you passed after 1997, then MAM comes in play unless you take your trailer towing test.

So if I so happen to pass my driving test next year (2013) with a B license, I could only tow with a vehicle that was capable of towing the full MAM of a trailer.

If I get my B+E, then I can tow like as if I got my license before 1997 so only have to worry about towing up to the car's braked towing weight?

Example, my Ifor 505 has an unladen weight of 840kgs and a max gross weight of 2340kg so unless I get my E, I can only tow with a vehicle capable of towing 2340kgs. 

Once I get my E, then all I have to worry about is whether the unladen weight of the trailer and horse inside, is less than the braked towing capacity of the car.

Have I understood this right?

I think our next car will be a larger car, I think my OH is coming around to the idea of buying a 4x4 for our next car (if he cycles to work to save on fuel).


----------



## ROG (14 June 2012)

sidesaddlegirl said:



			Hi Rog,

I'm trying to get my head around all the towing laws and think I may have sussed it? If I simplify things for myself, here is my understanding (please tell me if I'm WAY off!)..
		
Click to expand...

You are on the right track but not quite there .....

I'll do made up examples and then explanations as that is usually the easiest way to understand for most ....

*For B & B+E towing this rule applies*
The LOWER weight of these two must be used to determine what the max weight the trailer can be when loaded
*Trailer MAM
Vehicle towing capacity*
The unladen weight of the trailer gets deducted rom the LOWER of those two weight to obtain the weight that can be loaded into/onto it

*For B licence towing -*
VEHICLE 
Kerb weight 1500
GVW 2000
Towing capacity 1400 

TRAILER
Unladen 800
MAM 1500

Reasons this is legal
The GVW + MAM is not more than the 3500 max (2000+1500=3500)
The MAM 1500 is not more than the Kerb 1500 (this rule may be scrapped in Jan 2013)

Only 600 can be loaded in the trailer because the towing capacity 1400 is lower than the MAM 1500 (1400-800=600)

The trailer MAM can legally be more than the towing capacity

*For B+E licence towing -*
VEHICLE 
Kerb weight 1700
GVW 2500
Towing capacity 3000 

TRAILER
Unladen 1000
MAM 2500

Only 1500 can be loaded into the trailer because the MAM 2500 is less than the towing capacity 3000 (2500-1000=1500)

GVW and kerb weights play no part in the calculations for B+E towing unless there is a listed GTW which is lower than GVW and towing capacity added together but that only happens in odd cases


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## sidesaddlegirl (15 June 2012)

Thanks ROG, although MAM's and stuff still confuses me (I guess I'm just really thick). I'll leave the towing to my OH with his 1991 license as our car will be legal towing my one horse with it for him down the road and then hopefully by the time I eventually start driving and towing, we'll have a bigger car.

Just another question, when it's finally time for me to take my tow test, does the test center have "test cars and test trailers" for you to do your test in or do you bring your own vehicles? I don't know anyone who has done a towing test to ask as all my mates got their licenses before 1997, I'm just the thicko who can't pass a test!!


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## ROG (15 June 2012)

sidesaddlegirl said:



			Thanks ROG, although MAM's and stuff still confuses me (I guess I'm just really thick). I'll leave the towing to my OH with his 1991 license as our car will be legal towing my one horse with it for him down the road and then hopefully by the time I eventually start driving and towing, we'll have a bigger car.
		
Click to expand...

MAM or GVW means the same thing - the maximum weight something can be when fully loaded
Usually GVW is used for the vehicle and MAM is used for the trailer
The GVW/MAM weights can be found on a plate attached to the vehicle/trailer, in a handbook, on a registered kepers V5 form and often on the internet.

Legal if he is with you if the set up is outside B licence towing rules
*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner




sidesaddlegirl said:



			Just another question, when it's finally time for me to take my tow test, does the test center have "test cars and test trailers" for you to do your test in or do you bring your own vehicles? I don't know anyone who has done a towing test to ask as all my mates got their licenses before 1997, I'm just the thicko who can't pass a test!!
		
Click to expand...

You could do it with your own car and trailer as long as they meet the DSA test specifications

You would have to know exactly what the DSA are looking for on test

Most go to a B+E instructor and then use their set up for the test

*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise (old measurements) - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos


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## ROG (15 June 2012)

pattinghamponies said:



			Hi,
I'm getting my first tow car soon. One of the smaller 4x4s (Skoda Yeti), as the big gas guzzlers just don't make economic sense as a company car. I only want to tow one horse, but will probably get a double trailer - partly I don't like the look of singles, and partly for the option of taking another small horse occassionally, or just putting t'other half's bike in! 

Maximum towing weight of car is 2000kg.

So far I've narrowed it down to Cheval Liberte (newish with aluminium floor) or Equitrek Trail Treka M. I like the Cheval because they seem to get great reviews, and I like the idea of the posh suspension. But they do travel rearwards in the Equitrek, which I know is better. 

Any opinions on these two?
		
Click to expand...

Skoda Yeti SE 2.0 TDI CR 4x4 5dr 2.0
Kerb 1530
GVW 2070
Towing capacity 2000
Trail Treka 'M' 2 horses up to 16.2 hh
Unladen 880
MAM 2000

Towing on a B only licence would mean downplating the trailer from 2000 to 1430 so only allowing a load/horse weight of 550 kgs

Towing on a B+E licence would allow for a load/horse weight of 1120 kgs

Same towing vehicle with a Cheval GT2 Double Horse Trailer 
Unladen 780
MAM 2000

Towing on a B only licence would mean downplating the trailer from 2000 to 1430 so only allowing a load/horse weight of 650 kgs

Towing on a B+E licence would allow for a load/horse weight of 1220 kgs


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## ROG (15 June 2012)

pattinghamponies said:



			Thanks, looking at the questions there, these would be my answers:-

-
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
B+E 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
1455 (kerb weight), 2075 (total weight - to incl driver & kit)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
Like you, not sure what this means!
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
2000kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
2000kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
840kg (Cheval) 880kg (Equitrek)

Total weight of trailer & horse 
1350kg or 1390kg
		
Click to expand...

GVW means the maximum the vehicle can weigh when fully loaded
MAM means the maximum the trailer can weigh when fully loaded

As you have a B+E licence then the LOWER of these weights is the one to go by
The vehicle towing capacity
The trailer MAM

Take the LOWER of those weights and deduct the trailer unladen weight and you are left with the weight which can be loaded into the trailer


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## ROG (18 June 2012)

Beanz said:



			I have a Lexus RX400h which I have had for a few years now. I now want to buy a trailer to carry my 15.1hh, 430kg horse. I am having great difficulty in finding a trailer because the Lexus is a hybrid and the maximum nose weight it can take is 80kg. The maximum towing weight is 2000kg. Very few trailer manufacturers give nose weights and no one seems to know what will happen when you load a horse onto the trailer. Help!
		
Click to expand...

GENERAL INFO ABOUT NOSE WEIGHTS

THIS VOLVO HAD THE SAME PROBS - WORTH A READ THROUGH THIS THREAD

LEXUS 400h DIMENSIONS
Kerb 2000
GVW 2505
Towing 2000

This requires a B+E licence because the high GVW leaves only 995 kgs max trailer MAM for B licence towing

BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
I would suggest contacting the manufacturers of the above trailers as asking their advice in regards to noseweights


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## ROG (18 June 2012)

Lexus RX400h has a towing nose wheel weight limit of 80Kg
See post 17 in that thread form the LEXUS forum

My google search on this issue


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## Rach_W (18 June 2012)

This thread is great, I have read carefully through and think I have worked out when I will be legal and illegal and what I need to do but would be grateful for confirmation.  I will do my test as soon as possible but want to be legal in the meantime! 

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE                                            B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle: 		1890
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle				2510
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle	             2500
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load 
rating on the tyres                                                                 2700
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "			1000

My understanding is that at the moment this would be illegal on both a B and a B+E owing to the towing capacity of the vehicle being under what the vehicle can tow. 

So, to tow on a B, I would need to have the trailer re-plated to 1610, which means I could only have 610kg on the trailer.  If this is correct, then I would only be towing one horse and don't think she exceeds this.  Does tack etc in the car count? or only things in the trailer? 

To tow on B+E, I would need to have the trailer plated to 2500 to match the car's towing capacity? or is it not that simple?? 

Any clarification on this would be gratefully received!


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## ROG (18 June 2012)

Rach_W said:



			1 - What licence they hold *B* 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle: *1890*
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle *2510*
4 - towing capacity of the towing vehicle *2500*
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer *2700*
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer *1000*

Click to expand...

Guessing trailer is a HB511 and car is KIA SORENTO 




Rach_W said:



			So, to tow on a B, I would need to have the trailer re-plated to 1610, which means I could only have 610kg on the trailer.  If this is correct, then I would only be towing one horse and don't think she exceeds this.  Does tack etc in the car count? or only things in the trailer?
		
Click to expand...

With the vehicle having a GVW of 2510 then the maximum trailer MAM for B licence towing is 990 kgs and no horse trailer carrying a a horse over 340 kgs is going to be able to work with that little MAM
B licence towing with this vehicle is not going to work

3500 MAM/GVW is the limit for B licence towing so the math is 3500-2510=990
At the pesent time the math is 2510+2700=5210

ADD - EDIT - 
Just noticed that you added the kerb weight of 1890 to 1610 making 3500 when the GVW of 2510 should be used




Rach_W said:



			My understanding is that at the moment this would be illegal on both a B and a B+E owing to the towing capacity of the vehicle being under what the vehicle can tow.

To tow on B+E, I would need to have the trailer plated to 2500 to match the car's towing capacity? or is it not that simple??
		
Click to expand...

No necessary to do that

There is no law or rule which states that having a trailer plated MAM more than the manufacturers listed towing capacity is illegal for either B or B+E licence towing

When working out how much weight can be put in the trailer then take the LOWER weight of either the trailer MAM or towing capacity and deduct the trailer unladen weight = the load/horse weight

A trailer only needs downplating for B licence towing or to keep it out of commercial tacho/O-licence regs


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## Beanz (18 June 2012)

ROG said:



GENERAL INFO ABOUT NOSE WEIGHTS

THIS VOLVO HAD THE SAME PROBS - WORTH A READ THROUGH THIS THREAD

LEXUS 400h DIMENSIONS
Kerb 2000
GVW 2505
Towing 2000

This requires a B+E licence because the high GVW leaves only 995 kgs max trailer MAM for B licence towing

BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
I would suggest contacting the manufacturers of the above trailers as asking their advice in regards to noseweights
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog, I have contacted the dealers to see what they come up with, Karen


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## Rach_W (18 June 2012)

ROG said:



			Guessing trailer is a HB511 and car is KIA SORENTO 

Click to expand...

Ha ha, good guess on the car! The tralier is a HB510 but I found the figure by Googling it, so it may not be accurate.  I will double check what the trailer states tonight, although it doesn't sound as though it will make a difference given the weight of the car.  

Thanks for the clarification on that. Glad I checked  whether it could be legal on a B licence before changing the plating and still being illegal!  

Guess I'd better book some lessons and pass my test before the new car arrives! My OH will have to come with me in the meantime! 

Thanks for your help

Rachel


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## ROG (18 June 2012)

Rach_W said:



			Ha ha, good guess on the car! The tralier is a HB510 but I found the figure by Googling it, so it may not be accurate.  I will double check what the trailer states tonight, although it doesn't sound as though it will make a difference given the weight of the car.  

Thanks for the clarification on that. Glad I checked  whether it could be legal on a B licence before changing the plating and still being illegal!  

Guess I'd better book some lessons and pass my test before the new car arrives! My OH will have to come with me in the meantime! 

Thanks for your help

Rachel
		
Click to expand...

HB510PECS
Unladen 1000
MAM 2584

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Many will find that passing the once in a lifetime B+E test is their best option so here is some info on that test:-

*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise (old measurements) - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos


----------



## Rach_W (18 June 2012)

Thanks ROG.  My OH did his test just before 1997 (lucky thing) and I was just after, so he should be fine.

1 hour drive sounds a bit terrifying, I don't even remember the driving test being that long.  I will start practising driving properly at all times!!


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## Shelbyhound (19 June 2012)

Dear ROG

Please could you help me clarify the weight that I can legally tow? 

1 - What licence they hold - B+E
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 2050kg (LWB Shogun 2.8l, S reg)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2820kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 3300kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer 2300kg (Bateson Deauville)
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 860kg

I am confused by the 80% of kerb weight of car idea and would like to know whether I can tow two horses or just one.

Thank you in advance.


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## ROG (19 June 2012)

Shelbyhound said:



			Dear ROG

Please could you help me clarify the weight that I can legally tow? 

1 - What licence they hold - B+E
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 2050kg (LWB Shogun 2.8l, S reg)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2820kg
4 - towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 3300kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer 2300kg (Bateson Deauville)
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 860kg

I am confused by the 80% of kerb weight of car idea and would like to know whether I can tow two horses or just one.

Thank you in advance.
		
Click to expand...

The 85% of kerb weight is for newbie caravanners only so ignore that completely

As the lower of numbers 4 & 5 is 2300 kg then deduct 860 kg from that and it leaves 1440 kgs for the load/horse

Thats it for a B+E licence 

OH ...... WELCOME


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## Shelbyhound (20 June 2012)

Dear ROG

Thank you very much, I've agonised over that for 2 years! Now I can go hacking with my friends.


----------



## welshcobmad (21 June 2012)

Just after a few tips & what to expect!

Passed my trailer test a few weeks ago (woop!) & am picking up an Ifor 511 we have hired for 3 months over summer next Wednesday.

As much as I've passed my test, done loads of practice with a box trailer & taken a horse box out, next Friday will be my first time out fully loaded!

I have a manual 2.7 SWB Nissan Terrano which I have been told is fine towing a max of 2800kg, the unladen Ifor is 1000kg & we will have a 15.2hh 550kg Cob & 17.2hh 650kg TB on board, plus 3 people & tack so should be nicely within limits. We dont need to take water as theres a supply on site.

Hoping to be able to take at least one horse for a spin if not 2 around the block locally on the Wednesday night just to give me a feel for it, but apart from what I've been told - braking a lot sooner, gentler acceleration & braking, lower gears & the sensation of being pushed downhill by the weight behind, are there any other tips you can give me with having the horses actually on board?

We are going about 25 miles in each direction on the Friday but luckily all good roads & mostly dual carriageway, going to give ourselves loads of time to trundle up.

I'm a steady, confident & calm driver so no problem there, I'm not going to go & panic or flap, just want to be as prepared as possible 

Oh & am I fine towing in 2wd? I have 2 friends both with Terranos & the one tows everywhere when loaded in 4wd & the other just uses it for extra oompf on hill starts & across grass. I'm inclined to say I'm fine in 2wd but would like some confirmation! I've always been told driving in 4wd on a grippy surface will give you transmission wind up!

Sorry for all the questions! Thank you!!!


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## ROG (21 June 2012)

You seem to have everything planned out well including the weights so the only thing to say is ...... ENJOY YOURSELF


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## ROG (24 June 2012)

loubymiller said:



			So hubby is buying a mitsubishi l200 that has a plated towing weight upto 3.5tn. I am looking to take my trailer test so i can get a trailer and take myself off to places.
		
Click to expand...

MITSI L200 click drop down menu for various models and then click the weights tab

Due to the hugh GVW of these vehicles then the max trailer MAM weight would be 750 kgs

Any sort of horse trailer would require the driver to be driving under B+E licence rules

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Many will find that passing the once in a lifetime B+E test is their best option so here is some info on that test:-

*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise (old measurements) - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test
DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS 

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos


----------



## ROG (24 June 2012)

benson21 said:



			we have an ifor Williams 505, towing just Donovan, a 13.2 hh welsh.  At the moment we are using a discovery which obviously no problem, but its a company car, that is getting old, and I have a feeling we are going to be looking for a new one!  My car is a renault scenic.  Would that be ok to tow with?
		
Click to expand...

SCENIC TOWING CAPACITIES
Max towing capacity seems to be 1300 kgs for all models

One Scenic has these specs 
Kerb Vehicle Weight (kg) 1430
Gross Vehicle Weight (kg) 2153
Braked Maximum Towing Weight (kg) 1300

The HB505 has these specs
unladen 905
MAM 2340

For towing on a B licence the trailer would need downplating to 1300
*For towing on either a B or B+E licence the maximum that can be loaded into the trailer is only 395 kgs !! 1300-905=395*


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## Orchardbeck (24 June 2012)

Hi ROG 

I hope I have these figures right but I'm not 100%

1 B licence with provisional b+e
2 peugeot 5008, 1750kg
3 2310kg
4 (i'm not so sure of this but I think it is) 1500kg
5 ifor Williams 506 - 2600kg
6 920kg

Can I downplate my trailer as I only carry 1 415kg pony? 

Thanks


----------



## ROG (24 June 2012)

Orchardbeck said:



			Hi ROG 

I hope I have these figures right but I'm not 100%

1 B licence with provisional b+e
2 peugeot 5008, 1750kg
3 2310kg
4 (i'm not so sure of this but I think it is) 1500kg
5 ifor Williams 506 - 2600kg
6 920kg

Can I downplate my trailer as I only carry 1 415kg pony? 

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

YOUR VEHICLE SPECS
YOUR TRAILER SPECS

For B licence rules = 
With a vehicle GVW of 2310 that only leaves a max trailer MAM of 1190 so downplating the trailer you have to that would only leave 270 for the load/horse
You would need a lightweight one horse trailer plated to 1190 which if about 700 unladen would leave 490 for the load/horse

For B+E licence rules =
Max load/horse for trailer would be 580 (1500-920=580)
No need to downplate for B+E


----------



## Orchardbeck (24 June 2012)

Thanks, I thought that might have been the case, I thought for a second you were going to tell me different! So if we used a bigger vehicle, eg a Nissan Navara would that give me more or less of an allowance?


----------



## ROG (24 June 2012)

Orchardbeck said:



			Thanks, I thought that might have been the case, I thought for a second you were going to tell me different! So if we used a bigger vehicle, eg a Nissan Navara would that give me more or less of an allowance?
		
Click to expand...

The higher the GVW of the towing vehicle the less MAM there is available for the trailer for B licence towing


----------



## Orchardbeck (1 July 2012)

ROG, going back to this if you don't mind, could I give you another set of figures for a different vehicle that seems to be lighter in weight than the previous one? 

So 
1 - b 
2- nissan navara 2.5 dci 4x4 d/cab, 2006 reg -licencing mass 1962kg (I'm not sure on this one)
3 - 843kg (?)
4 2805kg
5 - ifor 506, 2600kg
6 - 920kg

I'm not sure about some of the stats i've given you - are you able to make anything from them? Thank you very much.


----------



## ROG (1 July 2012)

Orchardbeck said:



			ROG, going back to this if you don't mind, could I give you another set of figures for a different vehicle that seems to be lighter in weight than the previous one? 

So 
1 - b 
2- nissan navara 2.5 dci 4x4 d/cab, 2006 reg -licencing mass 1962kg (I'm not sure on this one)
3 - 843kg (?)
4 2805kg
5 - ifor 506, 2600kg
6 - 920kg

I'm not sure about some of the stats i've given you - are you able to make anything from them? Thank you very much.
		
Click to expand...

THIS MODEL NISSAN?
Kerb 2113
GVW 3210
Towing 2600

I need not go any further because the GVW of 3210 means the max trailer MAM for B licence towing is only 750 kgs

If your GVW figure of 2805 is correct then that only leaves a max trailer MAM of 750 kgs 

You need a different vehicle and trailer set up for B licence towing but you can tow this under B+E provisional rules - you already have that provisional


----------



## chestnuttyy (3 July 2012)

Me again! Just asked Ifor Williams to send a new plate and just wanted to triple check the following is legal on a b licence

Freelander:
GVW: 2080kg
Min kerb: 1619kg
New plated trailer weight: 1420kg

Pleeeeease tell me I got this right?!


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## ROG (3 July 2012)

chestnuttyy said:



			Me again! Just asked Ifor Williams to send a new plate and just wanted to triple check the following is legal on a b licence

Freelander:
GVW: 2080kg
Min kerb: 1619kg
New plated trailer weight: 1420kg

Pleeeeease tell me I got this right?!
		
Click to expand...

*YES YOU HAVE* 

I know the freelander 1 has a towing capacity of 1800 so that will be ok too

The weight which you can load into the trailer will be 1420 minus the trailer unladen weight but if you think the trailer plus load gets close to 1420 then take to a weighbridge to find out for sure

Legal to go directly to and from a weighbridge if overloaded unless its way over the top and considered dangerous


----------



## chestnuttyy (3 July 2012)

Wahoooo I shall be mobile at last!! Ned only weighs 500kg and trailer is 770kg unladen so as long as I don't take much with me we should be fine


----------



## ROG (6 July 2012)

JeanFeeney said:



			Would love some advice please!

I love my 3.5 ton Marlborough Hunter horsebox and so does my horse, but would like to occasionally be able to stay away at shows in reasonable comfort. Where I live it is at least two and a half hours to every show, so I'd rather not have the expense of running a bigger lorry all the time when I'm just off for the day.

I see Equitrek are bringing out a mini caravan to tow behind their small vans and this kind of thing would probably suit me, provided I can be sure my set up is safe and legal.

So question is: what weight of caravan can I tow? and what do I need to watch out for? Being ancient, I have grandfather rights to tow with a car, I believe!

Thanks, I can't find the information anywhere on the web so your advice would be much appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

Equi-Trek Trek-Away 750 kgs living





This would be legal to tow on a B (no B+E) licence
The reason is that a B licence can drive a 3.5 tonne vehicle with a maximum MAM/MTPLM trailer of 750 kgs

On a B+E licence which I believe you said you have (before 1997) then you can tow up to a 3500kgs MAM/MTPLM trailer/caravan BUT .... you would be restricted by any towing capacity and/or GTW listed for the vehicle

PS - I am calling Jim Wilson of Marlborough horseboxes to find out the towing specs for the hunter 01772 812780


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## * TEAM SAM * (6 July 2012)

ROG said:



Equi-Trek Trek-Away 750 kgs living





This would be legal to tow on a B (no B+E) licence
The reason is that a B licence can drive a 3.5 tonne vehicle with a maximum MAM/MTPLM trailer of 750 kgs

On a B+E licence which I believe you said you have (before 1997) then you can tow up to a 3500kgs MAM/MTPLM trailer/caravan BUT .... you would be restricted by any towing capacity and/or GTW listed for the vehicle

PS - I am calling Jim Wilson of Marlborough horseboxes to find out the towing specs for the hunter 01772 812780
		
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omg confused now.......


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## ROG (6 July 2012)

Re last post -  Jim found me the GTW figure 

The GTW of the Hunter horsebox is 5500 kgs
The GVW is 3500 kgs
At the moment I have no manufacturers towing capacity but it will be at least 2000 kgs

This means it can tow 2000kgs actual weight (at least) so we will go by that figure
If the horsebox actually weighed 3500 then 2000 would be the max for towing under GTW rules

*FOR YOUR SITUATION - *
As it seems you have a B+E then you can tow a caravan behind it which must not actually weight more than 2000 kgs when loaded but it can have a MTPLM of up to 3500 kgs


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## ROG (6 July 2012)

* TEAM SAM * said:



			omg confused now.......
		
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Can I help with your confusion?


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## ROG (6 July 2012)

Jim at Marlborough Horseboxes actually uses this type of set up to move 4 horses as he uses a 3.5 tonne horsebox with 2 lightish horses in it and then tows a horse trailer with 2 heavier horses in it

The horsebox (3500 GVW) actually weighs just under 3.5 tonnes and the 2 horse trailer (MAM about 2500) weighs just under 2 tonnes so is well in the 5500 kgs GTW limit


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## * TEAM SAM * (6 July 2012)

Is there anything i could tow with a x5 55plate 3.0d without passing my trailer test as i passed after 97 .... Just for time been until i have done test ? even if its just to get some practice going to local shows lessons .. i have no one to come with me else i would do this ... i used to tow years ago and didnt even realise now i have to be more careful and responsible

Thanks Sam


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## ROG (6 July 2012)

* TEAM SAM * said:



			Is there anything i could tow with a x5 55plate 3.0d without passing my trailer test as i passed after 97 .... Just for time been until i have done test ? even if its just to get some practice going to local shows lessons .. i have no one to come with me else i would do this ... i used to tow years ago and didnt even realise now i have to be more careful and responsible

Thanks Sam
		
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Got your PM and answered this but As it might help others I will also copy that answer here - 

IF THIS IS YOUR VEHICLE then it has a GVW of 2685 kgs which means that the maximum trailer you can tow on a B licence is only 815 kgs plated MAM and most horse trailers weigh near to that empty !!

No good for B licence horse trailer towing - you need a vehicle with a lower GVW perhaps around the 2000/2100 mark
Thats why the 4X4 Nissan Xtrail is so popular with B licence single horse trailer towers

You can drive it on your B+E provisional under the usual learner rules

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


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## ROG (6 July 2012)

To make things perhaps a little easier to understand in regards to towing with a B licence (no B+E) 

Find the GVW of your vehicle and then take that figure from 3500
What you are left with is the maximum plated MAM that the trailer can be

If that figure is less than 750 then it can be increased to 750 MAM

MAM or GVW means the maximum something can legally weigh when fully loaded

ONE MORE RULE which may be getting scrapped in Jan 2013
The trailer MAM must not be more than the kerb weight of the vehicle

*THE ABOVE IS FOR B LICENCE TOWING ONLY*


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## Scott (7 July 2012)

My wife has a 13.2 Welsh Section C and she would like a trailer. We've looked at one today. It's a Bahill trailer with the Serial number A1835.

It has no vin plate on it stating the unladen or max gross weight as I believe its probably too old to have needed one. The owner believes its around 750kgs unladen. Its a rear and front unload, steel chassis and alloy body.

We both passed our tests after 1997. We would be towing it with a BMW 328Ci which has an unladen weight of 1470 kgs and a max gross weight or 1895kgs or 1970kgs whilst towing. The braked towing capacity of the car is 1600kgs.

My question is as it has no vin plate on it stating the max gross weight but can I fit one? The trailer is about 750kgs unladen with her horse is would be about 1100kgs, so if I added a plate with a max gross weight of 1400kgs that should be fine and leaves another 300kgs for extras? I just don't know if I can just fit one!

Many Thanks,

Scott


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## ROG (7 July 2012)

Scott said:



			Hi my name is Scott,

My wife has a 13.2 Welsh Section C and she would like a trailer. We've looked at one today. It's a Bahill trailer with the Serial number A1835. 

It has no vin plate on it stating the unladen or max gross weight as I believe its probably too old to have needed one. The owner believes its around 750kgs unladen. Its a rear and front unload, steel chassis and alloy body. 

We both passed our tests after 1997. We would be towing it with a BMW 328Ci which has an unladen weight of 1470 kgs and a max gross weight or 1895kgs or 1970kgs whilst towing. The braked towing capacity of the car is 1600kgs. 

My question is as it has no vin plate on it stating the max gross weight but can I fit one? The trailer is about 750kgs unladen with her horse is would be about 1100kgs, so if I added a plate with a max gross weight of 1400kgs that should be fine and leaves another 300kgs for extras? I just don't know if I can just fit one!

Many Thanks,

Scott
		
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*WELCOME* 

I THINK THIS IS YOUR CAR ???
kerb 1470
GVW 1895
Towing 1600
On a B licence you can have a trailer with max MAM of 1470 with this vehicle

As your trailer does not have a plated weigh and Bayhill are no more then ....
Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS to determine the MAM.
A rating of 73 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1460 kgs.
The authorities will use the tyre load ratings for the MAM

Take trailer empty to a weighbridge to get the exact unladen weight which we assume is 750 kgs at the moment so with a MAM of 1460 it can then be loaded with a max load/horse of 710 kgs


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## Scott (7 July 2012)

ROG said:



*WELCOME* 

I THINK THIS IS YOUR CAR ???
kerb 1470
GVW 1895
Towing 1600
On a B licence you can have a trailer with max MAM of 1470 with this vehicle

As your trailer does not have a plated weigh and Bayhill are no more then ....
Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS to determine the MAM.
A rating of 73 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1460 kgs.
The authorities will use the tyre load ratings for the MAM

Take trailer empty to a weighbridge to get the exact unladen weight which we assume is 750 kgs at the moment so with a MAM of 1460 it can then be loaded with a max load/horse of 710 kgs
		
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Would it be possible to just fit a plate stating the MAM rather than changing all 4 tyres?

Thanks for your help.


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## ROG (7 July 2012)

Scott said:



			Would it be possible to just fit a plate stating the MAM rather than changing all 4 tyres?
		
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Not for legal purposes


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## Scott (8 July 2012)

ROG said:



			Not for legal purposes
		
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Its all very confusing, I've heard other people mention that it would be fine and others not!


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## Scott (8 July 2012)

Another person has told me that you can just mark the GW on the nearside drawbar with a paint stick!


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## ROG (8 July 2012)

Scott said:



			Its all very confusing, I've heard other people mention that it would be fine and others not!
		
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I can assure you 100% that a plate not made by a manufactuer will not count as being legal to determine the MAM

Manufacturers plates are recorded so the authorities have an avenue to check on their authenticity

If there was no such check then manufacturers might as well make trailers designed to take a certain weight, fit apropriate tyres for that weight and then list the max weight allowable for its design and let the public make their own plates as they see fit with the proviso that the max is not exceeded... but that does not happen

All those who say otherwise need to make clear what credibility they can give for saying so.

I am fairly certain that under construction and use regs there is something about this but not certain
I do know that if you contact a trailer manufacturer they can give you the contruction laws for making trailers


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## Primitive Pony (8 July 2012)

Apologies if this has been discussed already...

I am planning to take my B+E test soon, having had a few hours of training, but would like a bit more practice towing without paying the price for another day of training!

My car is a Renault Koleos, mass weight 2300kg so I know I have to take the test in order to tow my horse.

In order to practice, however, I thought I would perhaps a small trailer that is light enough for me to be legal but with an MPV high enough for me to take the test with ie between 1 and 1.2 tons.

Could you please confirm for me that this will be legal for both purposes?

Many thanks!


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## ROG (9 July 2012)

peh1980 said:



			Apologies if this has been discussed already...

I am planning to take my B+E test soon, having had a few hours of training, but would like a bit more practice towing without paying the price for another day of training!

My car is a Renault Koleos, mass weight 2300kg so I know I have to take the test in order to tow my horse.

In order to practice, however, I thought I would perhaps a small trailer that is light enough for me to be legal but with an MPV high enough for me to take the test with ie between 1 and 1.2 tons.

Could you please confirm for me that this will be legal for both purposes?

Many thanks!
		
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CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER

The two trailers above are 655 and 675 ks unladen respectivly
Downplated to 1200 that leaves either 545 or 525 for the load/horse


*You could practice as a B+E learner with a supervisng driver -* 
*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise (old measurements) - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

*If you are considering using your set up for the test - *
DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS 

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos


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## christymooo (9 July 2012)

Hi Rog

Would you be able to look at this for me. I think if I get my trailer down plated then I can leaglly tow on my B licence?


1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle- 1541kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle- 2080kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle- 2000kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres- 1600kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer-770kg

I have a new VW tiguan and an ifor williams single 401 trailer. If this is legal on a B licence, then is it just a matter of going to an Ifor williams dealer and getting them to replate my trailer?

Thanks


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## ROG (9 July 2012)

christymooo said:



			Hi Rog

Would you be able to look at this for me. I think if I get my trailer down plated then I can leaglly tow on my B licence?


1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle- 1541kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle- 2080kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle- 2000kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres- 1600kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer-770kg

I have a new VW tiguan and an ifor williams single 401 trailer. If this is legal on a B licence, then is it just a matter of going to an Ifor williams dealer and getting them to replate my trailer?

Thanks
		
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Downplate to 1400 for legal B towing (can be 1420 max)
Phone IFOR WILLIAMS on 01490 412527 - ask for customer care 
They will sort it and refer you to nearest dealer for the plate to be fitted


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## Scott (9 July 2012)

ROG said:



*WELCOME* 

I THINK THIS IS YOUR CAR ???
kerb 1470
GVW 1895
Towing 1600
On a B licence you can have a trailer with max MAM of 1470 with this vehicle

As your trailer does not have a plated weigh and Bayhill are no more then ....
Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS to determine the MAM.
A rating of 73 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1460 kgs.
The authorities will use the tyre load ratings for the MAM

Take trailer empty to a weighbridge to get the exact unladen weight which we assume is 750 kgs at the moment so with a MAM of 1460 it can then be loaded with a max load/horse of 710 kgs
		
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Sorry ROG, another question!

Tyres with a load rating of 73 are all car tyres it would seem. I assume there are no issues running car tyres on a trailer?

Thanks again!


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## ROG (9 July 2012)

Scott said:



			Tyres with a load rating of 73 are all car tyres it would seem. I assume there are no issues running car tyres on a trailer?
		
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I know of no reason, safety or legal, as to why they cannot be used

I thought trailer wheels were usually smaller than car wheels??????????


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## Scott (9 July 2012)

ROG said:



			I know of no reason, safety or legal, as to why they cannot be used

I thought trailer wheels were usually smaller than car wheels??????????
		
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I can't find any reason as to why you couldn't either! The wheels on the trailer are 13". I've found some 155/65/R13 73T tyres. I can't remember exactly what size the trailer had on it so i've asked the owner to check!


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## Scott (9 July 2012)

OK, the tyres on the trailer are currently 155R13C which equates to 155/80/R13 73T in car size.


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## ROG (9 July 2012)

Scott said:



			OK, the tyres on the trailer are currently 155R13C which equates to 155/80/R13 73T in car size.
		
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If the tyres fit the wheels then take them to a tyre fitter to have them fitted

If there are any issues the tyre fitter will point them out and will refuse to fit them if illegal or unsafe


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## ROG (9 July 2012)

ROG said:



			If the tyres fit the wheels then take them to a tyre fitter to have them fitted

If there are any issues the tyre fitter will point them out and will refuse to fit them if illegal or unsafe
		
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UPDATE - I called National Tyres

there are VAN and CAR tyres

VAN tyres with the correct load rating should be used for a trailer

VAN tyres are stronger


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## Scott (9 July 2012)

ROG said:



			UPDATE - I called National Tyres

there are VAN and CAR tyres

VAN tyres with the correct load rating should be used for a trailer

VAN tyres are stronger
		
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Should or have to buy law? I think finding 73 rated Van tyres would be impossible.


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## ROG (9 July 2012)

Scott said:



			OK, the tyres on the trailer are currently 155R13C which equates to 155/80/R13 73T in car size.
		
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http://www.trailertek.com/acatalog/13_inch_tyres.html

Any help?


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## Scott (9 July 2012)

I still can't find any info on this. There aren't any 73 load rated tyres in the correct size for van type tyres. 

But there are for car tyres. 73 load rating on a car tyre is the same rating as a Trailer or van tyre too, so they take exactly the same weight etc. All the law refers to is the tread depths and not mixing tyres etc.


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## ROG (9 July 2012)

Scott said:



			I still can't find any info on this. There aren't any 73 load rated tyres in the correct size for van type tyres. 

But there are for car tyres. 73 load rating on a car tyre is the same rating as a Trailer or van tyre too, so they take exactly the same weight etc. All the law refers to is the tread depths and not mixing tyres etc.
		
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I was informed by the tyre man at ATS and National Tyres is that trailers should have the van tye tyre as they are stronger being a higher ply rate

Cannot help any further so perhaps contacting a tyre fitting company like I did might help - bet their databases are full of various tyres


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## ROG (10 July 2012)

Doing the B+E test by yourself thread
Might interest one or two .....


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## rockysmum (10 July 2012)

ROG said:



			If there are any issues the tyre fitter will point them out and will refuse to fit them if illegal or unsafe
		
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This only applies if the tyre company actually understand trailers themselves.

I had tyres fitted to my trailer years ago by a large national company.  When I replaced them a few years later the fitter was shocked.  He also believes that van tyres must be used and I had been driving around on car tyres.

His explanation was the walls were stronger and also the pressures in the trailer tyres were higher than a car would normally use.

The load rating on a 73 tyre would barely cover the weight of the trailer and the horse.  When considering horse trailers you have to think what would happen if the horse moves. A half tonne horse throwing a wobbler on the motorway could put most of the weight on one tyre.  I can understand caravan owners pushing the limits on tyres, their load doesn't move.

My thoughts on travelling horses is always stay well within the limits.  That includes the towing weight of the vehicle.  I have a tonne to play with between the max load for my trailer and the capacity for my Landy, I wouldn't want any less.


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## ROG (10 July 2012)

rockysmum said:



			The load rating on a 73 tyre would barely cover the weight of the trailer and the horse.
		
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The problem here is that the unplated trailer needs to conform to B licence towing and having 4 tyres with a 73 rating is the highest it can go to


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## rockysmum (10 July 2012)

ROG said:



			The problem here is that the unplated trailer needs to conform to B licence towing and having 4 tyres with a 73 rating is the highest it can go to
		
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Then they need to take the test.  Pushing safety limits to get round the law is just silly.  I cringe every time I read the posts on here.

Get them all down to your trailer school     You are too nice sometimes


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## ROG (10 July 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Then they need to take the test.  Pushing safety limits to get round the law is just silly.  I cringe every time I read the posts on here.

Get them all down to your trailer school     You are too nice sometimes 

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I am unemployed so deffo do not have a training school !!

I agree with you to a point but there are trailers specifically made with tyres that match up to 3500 for a 3500 plated weight

What is important is having the right strength of tyres (PLY RATE) and if the right tyres cannot be found then it should not be done

I thought car tyres would be ok but after contacting tyre people who know more than me it seems they are not - safely not but legally ok


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## rockysmum (10 July 2012)

ROG said:



			I am unemployed so deffo do not have a training school !!
		
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Sorry, reading your sig I thought you did.

You should set one up


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## ROG (10 July 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Sorry, reading your sig I thought you did.

You should set one up 

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No point - B+E training in my area is saturated already with many doing it as a part time adhoc bit along with other things


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## MissMistletoe (13 July 2012)

Please can you tell me if this is a legal combination:

Towing vehicle: 2001 Jeep Cherokee 2.5TD manual.
Trailer:             Bateson Derby.
Horse:             1 x  500kg.

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE

I think it's a B (passed test in 1998)

2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle

If this is the kerb weight, than it is 1635kg


3 - GVW of the towing vehicle

2230kg

4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle

2500kg

5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres

Sorry, I do not have this info (I havent brought trailer yet)

6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

675kg

I got the above info about this model of Cherokee  from Autotrader, so Im not sure how accurate they are.

Thanks very much.


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## ROG (13 July 2012)

MissMistletoe said:



			Please can you tell me if this is a legal combination:

Towing vehicle: 2001 Jeep Cherokee 2.5TD manual.
Trailer:             Bateson Derby.
Horse:             1 x  500kg.

1 - What licence they hold - B (passed test in 1998)
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle 1635kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle 2230kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 2500kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer 
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer 675kg
		
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THIS MODEL?
KERB 1635
GVW 2230
Towing 2500
BATESON DERBY TRAILER
UNLADEN 675
MAM 1700

That trailer or any other trailer needs to be downplated (by contacting manufacturer) to a maximum MAM of 1270 kgs (2230+1270=3500)

That means the Derby trailer will take a max load/horse of 595 kgs (1270-675=595)

*Downplating a trailer to 1270 will make it legal for B licence towing *


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## MissMistletoe (13 July 2012)

ROG said:



THIS MODEL?
KERB 1635
GVW 2230
Towing 2500
BATESON DERBY TRAILER
UNLADEN 675
MAM 1700

That trailer or any other trailer needs to be downplated (by contacting manufacturer) to a maximum MAM of 1270 kgs (2230+1270=3500)

That means the Derby trailer will take a max load/horse of 595 kgs (1270-675=595)

*Downplating a trailer to 1270 will make it legal for B licence towing *

Click to expand...

That's really helpfull, thankyou.

Yes, that's the correct Jeep and the trailer youve highlighted.

So, if the above combo was driven by my partner (B and E), but with an extra horse of 400kg on top of the 500kg horse.
Would that be legal?.
Just thinking of plan two 

Thanks for your time.


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## ROG (13 July 2012)

MissMistletoe said:



			That's really helpfull, thankyou.

Yes, that's the correct Jeep and the trailer youve highlighted.

So, if the above combo was driven by my partner (B and E), but with an extra horse of 400kg on top of the 500kg horse.
Would that be legal?.
Just thinking of plan two 

Thanks for your time.
		
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You would need to leave the trailer MAM as it is at 1700 because it is pointless downplating for B+E

You can then have a load/horses of 1025 kgs

You can drive it under B+E provisional rules
L plates 
correct insurance - just inform insurer
Supervising driver with full B+E for 3+ years and aged over 21

you could use that set up for the B+E test - even if it was downplated but you would probably need extra side mirrors for the examiner


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## jennywren07 (14 July 2012)

can you tell me the "best" set up for towing a cob approx 520kg and a pony approx 280kg

i'd be started from scratch (including doing my b&e) but trying to work out which works out better for me a trailer or lorry. Any suggestions re. cars/trailer brands would be much appreciated!


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## ROG (14 July 2012)

jennywren07 said:



			can you tell me the "best" set up for towing a cob approx 520kg and a pony approx 280kg

i'd be started from scratch (including doing my b&e) but trying to work out which works out better for me a trailer or lorry. Any suggestions re. cars/trailer brands would be much appreciated!
		
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As much as I would like to help, this is not my area of expertise/knowledge

I can say that 2 horses will need a B+E if going for trailer

A 3.5 tonne horsebox should be fine for your situation and only needs a B licence


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## Perfect_Pirouette (16 July 2012)

Hello,

This is VERY hyperthetical I know but do you know whether my BF who has a B license (passed 1997 but after the cut off date ) could tow a single horse trailer with his 2003 Freelander??

I know it depends on weight/make of trailer etc but we don't have one (would possibly hire or look to buy in the next 6 months if the answer is yes)

Horse is 15'3 sort of middle weight type.

If so what weight single trailer would I be looking at?

Thanks


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## ROG (16 July 2012)

SummerxStarsx said:



			Hello,

This is VERY hyperthetical I know but do you know whether my BF who has a B license (passed 1997 but after the cut off date ) could tow a single horse trailer with his 2003 Freelander??

I know it depends on weight/make of trailer etc but we don't have one (would possibly hire or look to buy in the next 6 months if the answer is yes)

Horse is 15'3 sort of middle weight type.

If so what weight single trailer would I be looking at?

Thanks
		
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*FREELANDER 1 (2001 - 2005)*
Unladen/kerb = 1500
GVW = 2040
Towing = 1800
Max trailer plated MAM = 1460 kgs

Any of these (others may be available) three examples downplated if necessary by contacting the manufacturer (free or little cost) to a maximum of 1460 kgs MAM will suffice for a horse 650+ kgs
BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER

Unlikely when hiring that the trailer will be a low enough MAM for B licence towing


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## bobingtonsmyth (18 July 2012)

Hi,

I've been offered the loan of a trailer to cart around some gear for my other half for the next week. I'm bamboozled with the whole MAM plate issue and the fact that 50% of people tell me it's not an issue with my set up and the other 50% saying it is. 

Following your required stats:

1. B+E
2. 1200kg
3. 1790kg
4. 1200kg
5. 3500kg
6. 775kg

Thankfully, what I plan to load on the trailer isn't too heavy, around 300kg. So takes me to around 1075kg which is about 10% inside the towing capacity as marked in my cars handbook. BUT the MAM plate on the trailer states 3500kg and a lot of people (inc the Father in Law) are saying that as this is well over my cars Gross weight I'd be running illegally and I need to get it deplated, which as it's not my trailer I can't really do.

Anyhow, Thanks in advance,

Bob


----------



## ROG (18 July 2012)

bobingtonsmyth said:



			Hi,

I've been offered the loan of a trailer to cart around some gear for my other half for the next week. I'm bamboozled with the whole MAM plate issue and the fact that 50% of people tell me it's not an issue with my set up and the other 50% saying it is. 

Following your required stats:

1. B+E
2. 1200kg
3. 1790kg
4. 1200kg
5. 3500kg
6. 775kg

Thankfully, what I plan to load on the trailer isn't too heavy, around 300kg. So takes me to around 1075kg which is about 10% inside the towing capacity as marked in my cars handbook. BUT the MAM plate on the trailer states 3500kg and a lot of people (inc the Father in Law) are saying that as this is well over my cars Gross weight I'd be running illegally and I need to get it deplated, which as it's not my trailer I can't really do.

Anyhow, Thanks in advance,

Bob
		
Click to expand...

*WELCOME* 

You can load 425 kgs onto that trailer

There is no legal reason to downplate the trailer so anyone who says otherwise is wrong and challenge them to find the law that says so

There is an internet myth doing the rounds where some are saying that the trailer has the 'potential' to be loded with more than what the towing capacity allows but that is just a myth without any basis in law

I would like to know where this brand new law is where the MAM of the trailer cannot exceed the GVW of the vehicle?


----------



## bobingtonsmyth (18 July 2012)

ROG said:



*WELCOME* 

You can load 425 kgs onto that trailer

There is no legal reason to downplate the trailer so anyone who says otherwise is wrong and challenge them to find the law that says so

There is an internet myth doing the rounds where some are saying that the trailer has the 'potential' to be loded with more than what the towing capacity allows but that is just a myth without any basis in law

I would like to know where this brand new law is where the MAM of the trailer cannot exceed the GVW of the vehicle?
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog,

That's what I had figured but when the father-in-law starts to get involved it complicates matters.

Appreciate the clarification

Bob


----------



## coss (20 July 2012)

One of my friends has been told by driving instructor that she's not allowed to tow anything(!) til she's passed her B+E test regardless of weights... have given her link to this thread and this re categories
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022547


----------



## ROG (20 July 2012)

coss said:



			One of my friends has been told by driving instructor that she's not allowed to tow anything(!) til she's passed her B+E test regardless of weights... have given her link to this thread and this re categories
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022547

Click to expand...

I would like to have that instructor tell me that - can you PM me that instructors contact details/website please - I like to have a good banter!!

PS - a provisional B licence holder cannot tow anything


----------



## Joyous70 (20 July 2012)

Can you tell me if this set up would be legal please

I passed my test in 1987, so assuming im legal to tow without another test?

the vehicle weighs 1578kgs, has a towing braked weight of 1800kgs and i believe GVW 2185kgs 

Trailer is MAM 1600kgs unladed 600kgs

I think this answers all the questions?


----------



## ROG (20 July 2012)

Joyous70 said:



Can you tell me if this set up would be legal please

I passed my test in 1987, so assuming im legal to tow without another test?

the vehicle weighs 1578kgs, has a towing braked weight of 1800kgs and i believe GVW 2185kgs 

Trailer is MAM 1600kgs unladed 600kgs

I think this answers all the questions?

Click to expand...


All OK

You could have a trailer with a 3500 MAM and as long as it and its load did not actually weigh more than 1800 kgs you would also be OK


----------



## Joyous70 (20 July 2012)

Brill thanks for the quick response 

Im off to find me a decent estate car then with a tow capacity of 1800kgs, that was based on a mondeo estate, but needs to be an everyday car more importantly, and a tow car as second.  So you have just set my mind at ease, that what i have decided on is a good alternative to a 4x4


----------



## ROG (20 July 2012)

Joyous70 said:



 Brill thanks for the quick response 

Im off to find me a decent estate car then with a tow capacity of 1800kgs, that was based on a mondeo estate, but needs to be an everyday car more importantly, and a tow car as second.  So you have just set my mind at ease, that what i have decided on is a good alternative to a 4x4
		
Click to expand...

If you are not going to be on surfaces which need a 4X4 then ok


----------



## jcarr85 (23 July 2012)

Please help I am really struggling with this! would appreciate any advice?


1 - What licence they hold - car licence after 1997
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1670kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2350kg (Range rover evoque)
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres (unsure cheval liberate trailer) Think 1600kg??
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer 655kg


----------



## ROG (24 July 2012)

jcarr85 said:



			Please help I am really struggling with this! would appreciate any advice?


1 - What licence they hold - car licence after 1997
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1670kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2350kg (Range rover evoque)
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres (unsure cheval liberate trailer) Think 1600kg??
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer 655kg
		
Click to expand...

WELCOME 

You have only a B (no B+E) licence

With a GVW of 2350 the maximum trailer MAM for B licence towing is 1150 kgs (3500-2350=1150)

You could contact Cheval and have them downplate the trailer to 1150 but that would only leave a maximum load/horse weight of 495 kgs (1150-655=495)

You really need a towing vehicle where the GVW is perhaps 2200 kgs max allowing for a trailer of 1300 kgs MAM

Are you intending to tow alone or will there be another with you who is over age 21 and has had the B+E for 3+ years?


----------



## sophiebailey (24 July 2012)

Hi Rog,

I have a question about a landrover we're thinking of buying. I'm really sorry I don't have any of the specs as I'm on my phone with limited access to the net.

I only have a B license (would be looking to do my test)
The vehicle is a 2000 model landrover freelander 2L 5 door estate (think it may say something about TDi on it?)
It would be towing one horse with a weight of around 450kgs in a rice or equvilant trailer. 

Would the landrover be capable of pulling this load? 

Thank you, Sophie


----------



## ROG (24 July 2012)

sophiebailey said:



			Hi Rog,

I have a question about a landrover we're thinking of buying. I'm really sorry I don't have any of the specs as I'm on my phone with limited access to the net.

I only have a B license (would be looking to do my test)
The vehicle is a 2000 model landrover freelander 2L 5 door estate (think it may say something about TDi on it?)
It would be towing one horse with a weight of around 450kgs in a rice or equvilant trailer. 

Would the landrover be capable of pulling this load? 

Thank you, Sophie 

Click to expand...

NEAREST ONE TO YOUR FREELANDER I COULD FIND
KERB 1640
GVW 2080 
TOWING MAX 1800

With a B licence the maximum trailer MAM would be 1420 kgs
*WHAT IS THE PLATED MAM ON YOUR RICE TRAILER?*

If the plate is not on the trailer but the serial number is then you can CONTACT RICHARDSON RICE TRAILERS as they should have the details
They can also arrange for any downplating if necessary

Lets say you do have a trailer of 1400 kgs plated MAM .... 
The trailer would need to weigh less than 900 kgs empty to accomodate a load/horse of up to 500 kgs

====================================================

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Many will find that passing the once in a lifetime B+E test is their best option so here is some info on that test:-

*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos

This is interesting  a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test. So you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself. 
DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS


----------



## sophiebailey (24 July 2012)

Ah I'm not really sure of the weight of the trailer (we don't own one yet, would be looking to buy something once I've got the freelander and have passed my towing test).

So basically the freelander is capable of towing, but I'd need to find a trailer that weights approx 900kgs? 

Would this weight change once I've passed my test and got a B+E license? And would the freelander safely tow a greater weight? This is my main concern  

Thank you Rog !


----------



## jcarr85 (24 July 2012)

Wow thanks very quick reply and useful! If I were to do my B+E licence would a single trailer then be an option or would the evoque not have that towing capacity end of? 

Thanks 
Jemma.


----------



## ROG (24 July 2012)

sophiebailey said:



			Ah I'm not really sure of the weight of the trailer (we don't own one yet, would be looking to buy something once I've got the freelander and have passed my towing test).

So basically the freelander is capable of towing, but I'd need to find a trailer that weights approx 900kgs? 

Would this weight change once I've passed my test and got a B+E license? And would the freelander safely tow a greater weight? This is my main concern  

Thank you Rog !
		
Click to expand...

With one of these single horse trailers dowplated to 1400 if necessary then you can tow on your current B licence without the need for a B+E
BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER

Contact trailer manufacturer to have trailer downplated if needed (free or very little cost)

If/when you get a B+E or are driving under B+E provisional rules then you can have any MAM plated trailer up to 3500 kgs BUT can only have it actually weigh 1800 kgs when loaded


----------



## ROG (24 July 2012)

jcarr85 said:



			Wow thanks very quick reply and useful! If I were to do my B+E licence would a single trailer then be an option or would the evoque not have that towing capacity end of? 

Thanks 
Jemma.
		
Click to expand...

Same answer as post above being as they both have 1800 towing capacities when driving under B+E rules

A light double horse trailer such as the Bateson Derby can take two 500 kg horses and be well under 1800 kgs


----------



## evj (26 July 2012)

Possibly a very daft question but could a 1.9 fiat multipa pull a single trailer with a 16.2 Friesian in it on a b licence?


----------



## ROG (26 July 2012)

evj said:



			Possibly a very daft question but could a 1.9 fiat multipa pull a single trailer with a 16.2 Friesian in it on a b licence?
		
Click to expand...

THIS ONE CAN but is this the same as yours?

Kerb 1370
GVW 2050
Towing 1300

You can have any light horse trailer up to 1450 kgs plated MAM .... BUT .... dues to the max towing capacity of 1300 the empty trailer and its load cannot be more than 1300 kgs

Assuming your horse and another bits ans bobs add up to 600 kgs then that leaves 700 kgs for the empty trailer

There are two which weigh 675 & 655 which come to mind ....
BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
The Bateson would need downplating to 1450 max

So yes, it is possible to do what you ask


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## evj (26 July 2012)

Thanks rog, bet those trailers are like hens teeth!


----------



## ROG (26 July 2012)

evj said:



			Thanks rog, bet those trailers are like hens teeth!
		
Click to expand...

Few were going on this site recently so perhaps asking in New Lounge forum might work - idea?


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## Shakira38 (30 July 2012)

Hi
I've got an Audi A3 Sport 2.0 TDI. Can I tow my Ifor Williams 505R trailer with a 350/400kg pony in legally (I have done my trailer test)? If I can has anyone heard of how powerful they are for towing?
This is the details I found on uktow.com
Year 2005
Kerbweight (Kg) 1380
85% (Kg) 1173
Towing Capacity (Kg) 1400
Towing Capacity (Lbs) 3086

Thanks


----------



## ROG (30 July 2012)

Shakira38 said:



			Hi
I've got an Audi A3 Sport 2.0 TDI. Can I tow my Ifor Williams 505R trailer with a *350/400kg pony* in legally (I have done my trailer test)? If I can has anyone heard of how powerful they are for towing?
This is the details I found on uktow.com
Year 2005
Kerbweight (Kg) 1380 *NOT NEEDED FOR B+E*
85% (Kg) 1173 *CARAVANS ONLY*
Towing Capacity (Kg) 1400 *THATS THE BIT I NEED FOR B+E* 
Towing Capacity (Lbs) 3086 

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

IFOR 505
UNLADEN 905
MAM 2340

Limited to a total weight of empty trailer plus load/horse to 1400 kgs
trailer 905 plus horse 395 = 1300 
that still leaves 100 kgs for other stuff in trailer

I also reckon that if the trailer was downplated to just below 1400 (1380) then it would also be legal for B licence towing assuming the car GVW was not over 2100 kgs

Make sure you do not put too much other stuff in trailer with horse and you will be fine with a B+E licence


----------



## Shakira38 (2 August 2012)

ROG said:



IFOR 505
UNLADEN 905
MAM 2340

Limited to a total weight of empty trailer plus load/horse to 1400 kgs
trailer 905 plus horse 395 = 1300 
that still leaves 100 kgs for other stuff in trailer

I also reckon that if the trailer was downplated to just below 1400 (1380) then it would also be legal for B licence towing assuming the car GVW was not over 2100 kgs

Make sure you do not put too much other stuff in trailer with horse and you will be fine with a B+E licence
		
Click to expand...

Thank you. I have decided I'm going to sell my A3 and buy a 4x4. I haven't yet decided on which but I wondered if you've heard of any which you could recommend? Personally I was looking at a short wheel base nissan terrano or mitsubishi shogun or izusu trooper. I also like toyota ravs but not sure how they fair weight wise and driving like for towing? Can you recommened anything?


----------



## ROG (2 August 2012)

Shakira38 said:



			Can you recommened anything?
		
Click to expand...

Not my bag - my remit is more to do with weights and licence issues however, this may be of use - What towing vehicle and trailer do you have? - I asked the posters to rate them out of 10


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## Confuzz (5 August 2012)

1 - What licence they hold - B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle ? It's a Rav4 2.0 D-4D XT3 05 reg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle 1930kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 1500kg

I have this car and I'm looking at buying a 401 or 403 ifor Williams trailer. I would be towing one 460kg pony. 

Can this be done legally? 
What weight would I need to have a trailer replated at?
I'm hoping you'll be able to help before I go out and buy a trailer and then find I'd still need to do a trailer test or buy a bigger towing vehicle!


----------



## ROG (6 August 2012)

Confuzz said:



			1 - What licence they hold - B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle ? It's a Rav4 2.0 D-4D XT3 05 reg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle 1930kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 1500kg

I have this car and I'm looking at buying a 401 or 403 ifor Williams trailer. I would be towing one 460kg pony. 

Can this be done legally? 
What weight would I need to have a trailer replated at?
I'm hoping you'll be able to help before I go out and buy a trailer and then find I'd still need to do a trailer test or buy a bigger towing vehicle!
		
Click to expand...

DIMENSIONS FOR YOUR VEHICLE
Kerb 1442
GVW 1930
Towing 1500

HB401 specifications - HB403 is virtually the same
Unladen 770
MAM 1600

Horse/load 460 kgs

Replate trailer to 1442 maximum as it cannot have a MAM more than the kerbweight
Personally, I would downplate to 1400 which still leaves 630 kgs for the horse/load

The GVW added to the MAM is not more than 3500 kgs so that is OK

*That would be perfectly legal for B licence towing*


----------



## Always Henesy (8 August 2012)

Dear ROG

I wuold be most grateful for your assistance and advice regarding my towing set up.

I have a 2004 Grand Jeep Cherokee 2.7CRD automatic.

I have a pre 1997 licence
Trailer is an IW HB511 2 1/2 years old.

The trailer's unladen weight is 1000.00kg
The weight capacity is 1700.00kg

My horse weighs 850kg and usually tow him no problems.
If I were to add another horse of 600kg would my Jeep be able to tow this weight legally?
I can't find my Jeep manual but think the towing weight capacity is 3500kg?
I have no idea how heavy the car is???

Would you please be kind enough to advise?

many thanks
AH
x


----------



## ROG (8 August 2012)

Always Henesy said:



			Dear ROG

I wuold be most grateful for your assistance and advice regarding my towing set up.

I have a 2004 Grand Jeep Cherokee 2.7CRD automatic.

I have a pre 1997 licence
Trailer is an IW HB511 2 1/2 years old.

The trailer's unladen weight is 1000.00kg
The weight capacity is 1700.00kg

My horse weighs 850kg and usually tow him no problems.
If I were to add another horse of 600kg would my Jeep be able to tow this weight legally?
I can't find my Jeep manual but think the towing weight capacity is 3500kg?
I have no idea how heavy the car is???

Would you please be kind enough to advise?

many thanks
AH
x
		
Click to expand...

You have a B+E licence so no probs on that 

Jeep Grand Cherokee 2.7 CRD LIMITED 5DR AUTO
Towing capacity 3500 kgs

IFOR HB511
Unladen 1000
MAM 2700

With that set up you can load 1700 kgs into the trailer
850+600=1450 so that still leaves you with 250 kgs to spare


----------



## Always Henesy (8 August 2012)

Thank you so much for your help ROG

A very quick response - you are an absolute asset to this forum


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## martharolfe (13 August 2012)

I keep reading about people downplating trailers. Is this so that they can stay within the 3500kg combined weight without having to pass the additional trailer/towing test now required for newer drivers?

Is downplating required for those who have had their licenses before 1997?

Surely, you do not have to have a vehicle that has a towing capacity of the MAM of your trailer, as opposed to the actual weight you are pulling (trailer unladen plus cargo)?

THanks in advance. THis is a WONDERFUL clinic and I am very grateful to all the posters here and Rog!


----------



## ROG (13 August 2012)

martharolfe said:



			I keep reading about people downplating trailers. Is this so that they can stay within the 3500kg combined weight without having to pass the additional trailer/towing test now required for newer drivers?

Is downplating required for those who have had their licenses before 1997?

Surely, you do not have to have a vehicle that has a towing capacity of the MAM of your trailer, as opposed to the actual weight you are pulling (trailer unladen plus cargo)?

THanks in advance. THis is a WONDERFUL clinic and I am very grateful to all the posters here and Rog!
		
Click to expand...

Downplating is only needed to conform to the 3500 total MAM/GVW rule for B licence towing

No point for those before 1997 because they have B+E licences

There is no law or rule which says the MAM of the trailer cannot be more than the manufacturers towing capacity of the vehicle

This example would be legal for B or B+E licence towing
Having B+E means not having to downplate the trailer in this example

Vehicle
Unladen 1500
GVW 2000
Towing capacity 1400

Trailer
Unladen 700
MAM 1500 but downplated by manufacturer from 2000 for B licence towing

Max load for trailer would be 700 because 700+700=1400 which is the maximum towing capacity


----------



## billylula (13 August 2012)

Hi Rog!

I am about to buy a Jeep Cherokee 2.7 auto sport diesel for towing. I was wondering whether if I only towed a single horse trailer (the HB401) with a 300kg pony in it would mean I didn't have to take my B+E test? *thinks hopeful thoughts* ?

Thanks for your help.


----------



## ROG (13 August 2012)

billylula said:



			Hi Rog!

I am about to buy a Jeep Cherokee 2.7 auto sport diesel for towing. I was wondering whether if I only towed a single horse trailer (the HB401) with a 300kg pony in it would mean I didn't have to take my B+E test? *thinks hopeful thoughts* ?

Thanks for your help.
		
Click to expand...

Jeep Grand Cherokee 2.7 CRD LIMITED 5DR AUTO
Kerb 2135
GVW 2506
Towing 3500

Max plated MAM for trailer on a B only licence would be 994 kgs so downplating the HB401 to that and deducting the trailer unladen weight of 770 would leave *224 kgs for the horse*/load !!!!!!!

You need a vehicle with a lower GVW - perhaps around 2200 max


----------



## billylula (13 August 2012)

Oh well!

I've applied to do my B + E anyway just trying to see if there was a way round it


----------



## ROG (14 August 2012)

billylula said:



			Oh well!

I've applied to do my B + E anyway just trying to see if there was a way round it 

Click to expand...

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Many will find that passing the once in a lifetime B+E test is their best option so here is some info on that test:-

*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos

This is interesting  a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test. So you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself. 
DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS


----------



## MSS (18 August 2012)

Hi, could I ask a question about towing with L plates? 

Vehicle is a Jeep Cherokee 2.5 TD Limited and the trailer ifor 510

Vehicle weight 1635 kg
Braked Towing Weight 2500kg

Trailet Unlaiden weight 1000kg 
Weight capacity 1584 kg 
Max gross weight 2584 kg

Would it be legal to tow this with B license and L plates under supervision of holder of B+E license (had the b+e over 3 years)?

Ps many thanks for excellent forum posts ROG!


----------



## ROG (18 August 2012)

MSS said:



			Hi, could I ask a question about towing with L plates? 

Vehicle is a Jeep Cherokee 2.5 TD Limited and the trailer ifor 510

Vehicle weight 1635 kg
Braked Towing Weight 2500kg

Trailet Unlaiden weight 1000kg 
Weight capacity 1584 kg 
Max gross weight 2584 kg

Would it be legal to tow this with B license and L plates under supervision of holder of B+E license (had the b+e over 3 years)?

Ps many thanks for excellent forum posts ROG! 

Click to expand...

Check/inform your insurer and away you go 

Load max 1500 kgs and go driving on a motorway - all legal


----------



## zoon (21 August 2012)

finally decided to sell my rice trailer even though it is only 737kg so perfect for B licence towing if downplated. My mare is just a bit too long to fit in it.  I will buy another single horse trailer - either an ifor 401 or 403 or cheval liberte Gold one Pullman v2. I want to tow on a b licence and will get either a Kia sportage or Toyota rav4. But other than that, I am unsure what combination to go for. Have just been looking at kias and there seem to be 2 different kerb weights and towing capacities. Haven't looked at toyotas yet. I know I'll probably need to get the trailers down plated. My horse weighs about 500kg


----------



## ROG (21 August 2012)

zoon said:



			finally decided to sell my rice trailer even though it is only 737kg so perfect for B licence towing if downplated. My mare is just a bit too long to fit in it.  I will buy another single horse trailer - either an ifor 401 or 403 or cheval liberte Gold one Pullman v2. I want to tow on a b licence and will get either a Kia sportage or Toyota rav4. But other than that, I am unsure what combination to go for. Have just been looking at kias and there seem to be 2 different kerb weights and towing capacities. Haven't looked at toyotas yet. I know I'll probably need to get the trailers down plated. My horse weighs about 500kg
		
Click to expand...

This might help.....

BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER 675kgs
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER 655kgs
IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER 770kgs

Contact trailer manufacturer to have trailer downplated if needed (free or very little cost)

2005 Toyota RAV4 2.0 D-4D XT3 5DR (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1442
GVW = 1930
Max towing weight = 1500
Max trailer plated MAM = 1442 kgs

Nissan X trail (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1515
GVW = 2050
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs

Kia Sportage (AWD) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1678
GVW = 2140
Towing = 1600
Max trailer plated MAM = 1360 kgs

FREELANDER 1 (2001 - 2005)
Unladen/kerb = 1500
GVW = 2040
Towing = 1800
Max trailer plated MAM = 1460 kgs

SUBARU FORRESTER (4X4) 
Unladen/kerb = 1465 minimum
GVW = 2050 maximum
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs

Skoda Yeti (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Kerb = 1530
GVW = 2070
Towing capacity = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1430 kgs 


Deduct trailer unladen weight from max trailer plated weight to get maximum load/horse weight for the trailer
Example:- Nissan (1450) minus IFOR HB401 (770) = load/horse 680 kgs


----------



## zoon (21 August 2012)

With regards to the kia - what does AWD mean? Looking at an 09 Titan, max towing weight of 1800 and kerb weight of 1842 - different to the one you sted, but can't work out which version yours is?


----------



## ROG (21 August 2012)

zoon said:



			With regards to the kia - what does AWD mean? Looking at an 09 Titan, max towing weight of 1800 and kerb weight of 1842 - different to the one you sted, but can't work out which version yours is?
		
Click to expand...

AWD = all wheel drive - not sure how that differs from a 4 wheel drive!!

THIS TITAN?
KERB 1842
GVW 2260
TOWING 1800

Max MAM of trailer for B licence towing = 1240 kgs


----------



## zoon (21 August 2012)

Yes, that's a bit tight weight wise then. Can't find a sportage with the weights you mentioned. I need leather seats, so will need to be an XS model


----------



## ROG (21 August 2012)

zoon said:



			Yes, that's a bit tight weight wise then. Can't find a sportage with the weights you mentioned. I need leather seats, so will need to be an XS model
		
Click to expand...

SPORTAGE DIMENSIONS
Loads in that link - just click on the year and scroll down


----------



## ROG (21 August 2012)

KIA Sportage 2.0 CRDI XS 5DR 2WD *AUTO* 2010
This XS has these specs
Kia Sportage (AWD) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1769
GVW = 2140
Towing = 1400
Max trailer plated MAM = 1360 kgs


----------



## zoon (21 August 2012)

How about this one ?
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...ords/xs/radius/100/postcode/me160wn?logcode=p


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## ROG (22 August 2012)

zoon said:



			How about this one ?
KIA Sportage 2.0 CRDI XS 5DR *AUTO* 2005

Click to expand...

That is another AUTO - is that what you want?

kerbweight 1774
GVW 2210
Towing 1600
Max trailer MAM for B licence towing = 1290 kgs

It does seem that there is a difference in the weight dimensions between AUTO and MANUAL for the same models


----------



## zoon (22 August 2012)

No, not really! This is a minefield isn't it! My main reason for going for small trailer and smaller vehicle is cost - less fuel, greater economy and lower insurance and tax. Happy to do my B+E but still won't be buying a big trailer or 4x4 so don't see the point if I can do without, but trying to find a car is very hard! I am not entirely sure how you're working the figures out! Ok, so how about this newer rav4? Greater towing capacity, but also heavier vehicle - 
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...60wn/keywords/2.2/page/1/radius/100?logcode=p


----------



## ROG (22 August 2012)

zoon said:



			No, not really! This is a minefield isn't it! My main reason for going for small trailer and smaller vehicle is cost - less fuel, greater economy and lower insurance and tax. Happy to do my B+E but still won't be buying a big trailer or 4x4 so don't see the point if I can do without, but trying to find a car is very hard! I am not entirely sure how you're working the figures out! Ok, so how about this newer rav4? Greater towing capacity, but also heavier vehicle - 
Toyota RAV-4 Xt4 D-4d 2.2 5dr 2007

Click to expand...

KERBWEIGHT 1585
GVW 2190
TOWING 2000

MAX TRAILER MAM FOR B TOWING = 1310 KGS

That is a manual

*To work out the figures click the DIMENSIONS tab in the link to find the kerb, gvw and towing weights
Then deduct the gvw from 3500 and that gives the max trailer MAM

Just to be certain it conforms to the B towing rules check that the max trailer MAM is not more than the kerbweight

Now check that the whole of the trailer MAM can be used by seeing if it is less than the towing capacity*


----------



## zoon (22 August 2012)

ROG said:



			KERBWEIGHT 1585
GVW 2190
TOWING 2000

MAX TRAILER MAM FOR B TOWING = 1310 KGS

That is a manual
		
Click to expand...

I'd prefer a manual. So with that car and a cheval liberte of 655kg how much horse can I fit in? Do I need to take into account weight of people, water, tack etc?


----------



## ROG (22 August 2012)

zoon said:



			I'd prefer a manual. So with that car and a cheval liberte of 655kg how much horse can I fit in? Do I need to take into account weight of people, water, tack etc?
		
Click to expand...

1310 - lets reduce that to a round 1300

1300 minus 655 = 645

645 is the total weight that can be loaded into the trailer

PS - people are not allowed in the trailer when towing !!!!!!!!! LOL

EDIT - 
I think you may be getting a little mixed up with weight allowances ...
The vehicle has its own weight allowance
The trailer has its own weight allowance

If you have people horse and tack etc then the people would be in the vehicle weight allowance and the horse in the trailer weight allowance
The tack can be either vehicle or trailer depending what you load it into

Example:-
Vehicle GVW 2000
kerb 1500
MAX load for vehicle = 500 (2000-1500=500)

Trailer
unladen 700
MAM 1300
Max load for trailer = 600 (1300-700=600)


----------



## Shutterbug (22 August 2012)

Any ides on the towing capacity of a HYUNDAI SANTA FE 2.7 V6?

Would be towing a 510 with one 16'3 m/w warmblood and cannot find the stats


----------



## Shutterbug (22 August 2012)

Hevs said:



			Any ides on the towing capacity of a HYUNDAI SANTA FE 2.7 V6?

Would be towing a 510 with one 16'3 m/w warmblood and cannot find the stats
		
Click to expand...

Never mind - found it - at 2300kg I wont bother


----------



## ROG (23 August 2012)

Hevs said:



			Any ides on the towing capacity of a HYUNDAI SANTA FE 2.7 V6?

Would be towing a 510 with one 16'3 m/w warmblood

Never mind - found it - at 2300kg I wont bother
		
Click to expand...

*Why not?*

Hyundai Santa Fe 2.7 V6 5dr Auto Estate 2001
Kerb 1756
GVW 2380
Towing 2300

HB511 or HB510 specs
Unladen 1000
MAM 2700

*2300 towing capacity will easily cope with 1000 (trailer) plus 600? (horse)*

No good for B licence towing though


----------



## Shutterbug (23 August 2012)

Thanks ROG - my head is spinning from all the numbers I have looked at over the last few weeks


----------



## ROG (23 August 2012)

Hevs said:



			Thanks ROG - my head is spinning from all the numbers I have looked at over the last few weeks
		
Click to expand...

B+E licence required for that set up

Max load for trailer would be 1300 kgs

1300+1000=2300 towing capacity


----------



## coss (24 August 2012)

ROG - from 19th Jan 2013 I see the rules are slightly changing again.
Am I reading (in)correctly or does this increase towing capacities on a B-category license?
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/DG_201206



			Motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg and designed and constructed for the carriage of no more than eight passengers in addition to the driver, with a trailer over 750kg, where the combination MAM is not exceeding 4250kg
		
Click to expand...

This would mean you could have say a 2500kg GVW car and still tow a trailer plated at for example 1750kg? since 2500+1750=4250 ??

ETA: it does however state in a starred bit "**New element of category B (UK will not be taking this up. To drive vehicles within this definition, entitlement B+E will be needed)."
So does that mean the rules stay the same


----------



## ROG (24 August 2012)

coss said:



			ROG - from 19th Jan 2013 I see the rules are slightly changing again.
Am I reading (in)correctly or does this increase towing capacities on a B-category license?
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/DG_201206


This would mean you could have say a 2500kg GVW car and still tow a trailer plated at for example 1750kg? since 2500+1750=4250 ??

ETA: it does however state in a starred bit "**New element of category B (UK will not be taking this up. To drive vehicles within this definition, entitlement B+E will be needed)."
So does that mean the rules stay the same 

Click to expand...

The only change from the present rules is that new B+E licence holders from that date will need C1+E to tow trailers over 3500 kgs MAM

We might lose the rule where for B licence towing the trailer MAM cannot be more than vehicle kerbweight but don't hold your breath because although the EU doesn't have this rule we in the UK do and we are allowed to keep it.


----------



## coss (24 August 2012)

ROG said:



			The only change from the present rules is that new B+E licence holders from that date will need C1+E to tow trailers over 3500 kgs MAM

We might lose the rule where for B licence towing the trailer MAM cannot be more than vehicle kerbweight but don't hold your breath because although the EU doesn't have this rule we in the UK do and we are allowed to keep it.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you


----------



## ROG (24 August 2012)

Mardy Mare said:



			What about a single Ifor 401 being towed by a Mondeo 53 plate diesel Estate for B licence holder?

Just curious! 

Click to expand...

Ford Mondeo 2.0TDCi 115 LX 5dr Diesel Estate 2003
kerb 1547
GVW 2165
towing 1800

HB401
unladen 770
MAM 1600

Trailer would need downplating to 1335 max - contact IFOR for that

If downplated to 1300 then it will leave 530 max for horse/load


----------



## Bangagin (24 August 2012)

I have a slightly different question about towing and hope it's ok to post it here.

I've just sold my 1999 IW trailer and bought a Wessex Clubman as preferred ramp on kerbside. It's slightly lighter than the IW. Towing it home empty with my 2.8 diesel Pajero yesterday evening I noticed a little bouncing and jerking of the trailer. When I used to tow my IW empty it was 100% rock steady. This felt like the movement you get when a horse is playing up in the trailer - although on a smaller scale.

I have yet to check tyre pressures before towing with a horse on board, but wondered whether it could indicate a potential problem. Either mechanically with the trailer, or with the tow bar being the wrong height? The trailer has just been serviced, but they had it done at their local garage rather than a specific trailer place.

The only thing that is worrying me slightly is the previous owners told me they could alter the height of the tow bar on their towing vechicle, whereas I can't.


----------



## ROG (24 August 2012)

Bangagin said:



			I have a slightly different question about towing and hope it's ok to post it here.
		
Click to expand...

No problem as it is to do with towing trailers 

I cannot help but perhaps others can ......


----------



## ROG (25 August 2012)

npage123 said:



			Dear ROG, the expert 

Could you please tell me if it's allowed to tow a single/lightweight trailer with a Hyundai Santa Fe 2.0 CRTD (53 reg) on a B licence?
		
Click to expand...

Simple answer - NO

That vehicle has a GVW of 2520 kgs which only leaves 980 kgs MAM for the trailer (3500-2520=980)
With the lightest trailer being 655 kgs that would only leave 325 kgs for the load/horse


----------



## Carol olympic news (26 August 2012)

Hi.  Help!  Thinking of buying a trailer but so confused.  I have a Toyota Hilux 05 max towing weight with brakes 2250kg.  
I have a pre 97 normal license.  Gross vehicle mass 2760kg.
Can't find any other requested info in the manual...
Was hoping I could get an Equi Trek Space Treka L unladen 1250 gross 2600.  Or the Show treka L unladen 1400 gross 3000 - but we would have smallish horses/pony.  They are roughly 500kg 400kg and 200kg.  Can't imagine ever taking the 2 horses together...
Please help!  I thought with our lovely truck weight would not be an issue but it seems so??  What could I buy and pull safely!
Kind regards
Carol Gregory


----------



## ROG (26 August 2012)

Carol olympic news said:



			Hi.  Help!  Thinking of buying a trailer but so confused.  I have a Toyota Hilux 05 max towing weight with brakes 2250kg.  
I have a pre 97 normal license.  Gross vehicle mass 2760kg.
Can't find any other requested info in the manual...
Was hoping I could get an Equi Trek Space Treka L unladen 1250 gross 2600.  Or the Show treka L unladen 1400 gross 3000 - but we would have smallish horses/pony.  They are roughly 500kg 400kg and 200kg.  Can't imagine ever taking the 2 horses together...
Please help!  I thought with our lovely truck weight would not be an issue but it seems so??  What could I buy and pull safely!
Kind regards
Carol Gregory
		
Click to expand...

With a B+E licence which you have then, whatever trailer you buy, the empty trailer weight plus the weight of the load/horses when added together must not be more than the plated MAM weight of the trailer or the vehicle towing capacity, whichever is the lower of the two

Example
Hilux
towing capacity 2250

Show treka L
Unladen 1400
MAM 3000

Max load for trailer will be 850 kgs
850+1400=2250


----------



## millachip (30 August 2012)

Hi Rog, 
I've been trying to work out if I can tow with my Rav4 which is the deisel 6speed manual version and hope you can help me.
I have a BE licence
It doesn't show the unladen weight of the Rav4 in my book
GVW of Rav is 2190 as per book
Towing capacity is 2000 as per book
I can't buy a trailer until I know if I can tow one and under what circumstances! The ponies I need to transport are both 12.2, one an exmoor, the other a welsh part bred - surely a combined weight of less than 700kg.
Really hope that you can ease my confusion!!  Thanks


----------



## ROG (30 August 2012)

millachip said:



			Hi Rog, 
I've been trying to work out if I can tow with my Rav4 which is the deisel 6speed manual version and hope you can help me.
I have a BE licence
Towing capacity is 2000 as per book
The ponies ... a combined weight of less than 700kg.
		
Click to expand...

*WELCOME* 

With a B+E licence then all that matters is the trailer plated MAM and the vehicle towing capacity in regards to what weight can be carried in the trailer

you can have any trailer up to 3500 kgs plated MAM

The weight of the empty trailer plus the 700 kgs for the ponies cannot be more than 2000 kgs (towing capacity) or more than the trailer plated MAM

Getting a trailer with a MAM over 2000 is your best bet because not going over the 2000 will mean you never get near to the trailer MAM

However, getting a trailer with a 1700 MAM which weighs 800 empty will still be ok because that still leaves you 900 kgs load capacity with 200 kgs to spare for other bits and pieces


----------



## millachip (30 August 2012)

Thanks Rog, 
Just to make sure... so an Ifor Williams HB506 with unladen weight of 920 and gross weight of 2600 would be legal for me to tow with the ponies making it up to 1620 with maybe another 100 for 'bits'.  
Now as the 85% of my Gross Vehicle Mass comes to 1861 and I am not intending to go on anything other than B roads a few miles here and there... do you think it would be safe for me to tow with this combination, as so many post have terrified me regarding the poor Rav4!
Really appreciate your help, can't believe you are so awesome!!


----------



## ROG (30 August 2012)

millachip said:



			Thanks Rog, 
Just to make sure... so an Ifor Williams HB506 with unladen weight of 920 and gross weight of 2600 would be legal for me to tow with the ponies making it up to 1620 with maybe another 100 for 'bits'.  
Now as the 85% of my Gross Vehicle Mass comes to 1861
		
Click to expand...

*85% ADVICE is for CARAVANS only and not for any other type of trailer*

2600 MAM
2000 towing capacity
We use the LOWER of those so that will be the 2000

2000 minus 920 = 1080 for the load/horses which would be 700 for your ponies plus 380 for other bits


----------



## Smurfys Law (1 September 2012)

Hi

Looking for some help please. I have a b+e license and own a Mazda 3 1.6 ts2 diesel.  I want to tow one horse weighing 510kg.  I believe the braked towing capacity of my Mazda is 1300kg.  So does this mean I just need to keep trailer weight below 790kg and is this possible? Or do I need a new vehicle?!

Thanks in advance


----------



## ROG (1 September 2012)

Smurfys Law said:



			Hi

Looking for some help please. I have a b+e license and own a Mazda 3 1.6 ts2 diesel.  I want to tow one horse weighing 510kg.  I believe the braked towing capacity of my Mazda is 1300kg.  So does this mean I just need to keep trailer weight below 790kg and is this possible? Or do I need a new vehicle?!

Thanks in advance
		
Click to expand...

Mazda 3 TS2 1.6 5dr 2010
kerb 1398
GVW 1830
Towing 1300

With a horse/load of 510 (but lets say 550 to allow for other bits) you need a trailer which is 750 unladen/empty and has a plated MAM of at least 1300 kgs

The Bateson Derby at 675 unladen and the Cheval liberte single horse trailer at 655 unladen are the only two I can think of at the momment which will fulfill your needs


----------



## rockysmum (1 September 2012)

Bangagin said:



			I have a slightly different question about towing and hope it's ok to post it here.

I've just sold my 1999 IW trailer and bought a Wessex Clubman as preferred ramp on kerbside. It's slightly lighter than the IW. Towing it home empty with my 2.8 diesel Pajero yesterday evening I noticed a little bouncing and jerking of the trailer. When I used to tow my IW empty it was 100% rock steady. This felt like the movement you get when a horse is playing up in the trailer - although on a smaller scale.

I have yet to check tyre pressures before towing with a horse on board, but wondered whether it could indicate a potential problem. Either mechanically with the trailer, or with the tow bar being the wrong height? The trailer has just been serviced, but they had it done at their local garage rather than a specific trailer place.

The only thing that is worrying me slightly is the previous owners told me they could alter the height of the tow bar on their towing vechicle, whereas I can't.
		
Click to expand...



Not an expert or mechanic, but when my old trailer started to do this it was the dampers.  They are a shock absorber type of thing which absorbes some of the movement when you brake.  If they are broken or leaking you wouldn't notice unless you actually towed it.  The result is that instead of the brakes coming on and off smoothly they jerk on and off.  This means the trailer is constantly bringing on the brakes which then slows it down bringing them off hard.  It them bounces back bringing the brakes on again.

On my Rice you could actually see them on the tow hitch, not sure about other trailers.


----------



## Bustalot (2 September 2012)

Sorry, new to this towing malarchy and currently looking at getting a car to do the job. But never realised there were so many different types of tow bar! Always thought a tow bar was a tow bar. 

What type of tow bar do I need to to a horse trailer?

Thanks


----------



## ROG (2 September 2012)

Bustalot said:



			Sorry, new to this towing malarchy and currently looking at getting a car to do the job. But never realised there were so many different types of tow bar! Always thought a tow bar was a tow bar. 

What type of tow bar do I need to to a horse trailer?

Thanks 

Click to expand...

Not my field of expertise but this may help TOWBAR FAQs


----------



## Shutterbug (2 September 2012)

hi....me again 

Toyota Hilux Surf 2.5 TD

I cant find a lot of information on this vehicle as its technically an import - any ideas on towing capability?  Potentially towing a 511 with two horses


----------



## ROG (3 September 2012)

Hevs said:



			hi....me again 

Toyota Hilux Surf 2.5 TD

I cant find a lot of information on this vehicle as its technically an import - any ideas on towing capability?  Potentially towing a 511 with two horses
		
Click to expand...

I cannot find the towing limit for it either 

looks like a call to Toyota HQ in the UK may be the only way to find out


----------



## ROG (3 September 2012)

ROMANY 1959 said:



			Had licence since 1978, I drive 3.5 lorry, can I put a tow bar on the back and pull a small trailer to carry my driving carriage.  Lorry is Renault master conversion 3yr old.
		
Click to expand...

Renault Master with a GVW of 3.5 tonnes usually has a GTW of 6.0 tonnes
This can be confirmed by finding the weight plate on it somewhere and reading the top two figures

Assuming the figures are correct and the van is fully loaded to 3.5 tonnes then it can tow a trailer, horsebox trailer, or caravan etc which actually weighs 2.5 tonnes or 2500 kgs

The plated MAM of any trailer towed can be up to 3500 kgs

You have a pre 1997 licence so the B+E on it will cover you for that


----------



## ROG (3 September 2012)

I have mentioned before that the only legal way to have a trailer down plated for B licence towing is to contact the trailer manufacturer but some have gone out of business so it becomes impossible

Other manufacturers were taken over by a rival so may still retain the records in order to down plate - this is one example .. I copied it from another site

*Sinclair was bought out by pegasus years ago and now pegasus trailers have been bought out by Wessex*

The owner of a sinclair trailer had it recently down plated by Wessex for a £10


----------



## Renvers (7 September 2012)

I am looking to buy a 4X4 and trailer for towing on a B+E and have see a couple of nice LPG conversions, one is a ML320 and the other a Defender so towing weights etc all ok for one horse in a standard trailer. 

However I wondered if being an LPG would in anyway affect the towing, either in terms of power or legal ability. 

Anyone any ideas/experience of using LPG?


----------



## ROG (7 September 2012)

Renvers said:



			I am looking to buy a 4X4 and trailer for towing on a B+E and have see a couple of nice LPG conversions, one is a ML320 and the other a Defender so towing weights etc all ok for one horse in a standard trailer. 

However I wondered if being an LPG would in anyway affect the towing, either in terms of power or legal ability. 

Anyone any ideas/experience of using LPG?
		
Click to expand...

Try the links in this google search many are from this site


----------



## joolie (7 September 2012)

Hi

Long time (and very confused!) lurker.

Looking to tow with just a B licence an Ifor 401 or 403 single horse trailer.
Vehicle: Freelander 2005 2.0 TD4 (3 door, SWB)

Max tow weight 1800 breaked
Min kerb weight 1640
GVW 2500

Think from what I have read this is legal with a downplated trailer....? 

Thanks


----------



## ROG (7 September 2012)

joolie said:



			Hi

Long time (and very confused!) lurker.

Looking to tow with just a B licence an Ifor 401 or 403 single horse trailer.
Vehicle: Freelander 2005 2.0 TD4 (3 door, SWB)

Max tow weight 1800 breaked
Min kerb weight 1640
GVW 2500

Think from what I have read this is legal with a downplated trailer....? 

Thanks 

Click to expand...

*WELCOME* 

For B licence towing:-

If you had this model ....
FREELANDER 1 (2001 - 2005)
Unladen/kerb = 1500
GVW = 2040
Towing = 1800
.... then you could have a Max trailer plated MAM of 1460 kgs

*BUT* with the model you have given at 2500 GVW it means the max trailer plated MAM can only be 1000 kgs and as they weight about 770 kgs empty that will only leave 230 kgs for the load/horse

EDIT/ADD - it seems like you have got a late 2005 Freelander 1 and they were upgraded to the freelander 2 specifications which made them heavier - they changed to the freelander 2 in very late 2005 or early 2006


----------



## joolie (7 September 2012)

Many thanks....

Interestingly enough the 5 door/long wheelbase has a lower GVW (the one you have quoted) than the 3 door I am looking at.

Hmmm. Are you aware of any other 4x4 options that would be legal? Not keen on 2WD with muddy fields!

Thanks again


----------



## joolie (7 September 2012)

ROG said:



*WELCOME* 

EDIT/ADD - it seems like you have got a late 2005 Freelander 1 and they were upgraded to the freelander 2 specifications which made them heavier - they changed to the freelander 2 in very late 2005 or early 2006
		
Click to expand...

Yes - the one I have my eye on is a 55 plate so that may expain it!


----------



## ROG (7 September 2012)

joolie said:



			Many thanks....

Interestingly enough the 5 door/long wheelbase has a lower GVW (the one you have quoted) than the 3 door I am looking at.

Hmmm. Are you aware of any other 4x4 options that would be legal? Not keen on 2WD with muddy fields!

Thanks again 

Click to expand...

Here are a few suggestions - 

IFOR HB403 LIGHT HORSE TRAILER

Contact trailer manufacturer to have trailer downplated if needed (free or very little cost)

Toyota Rav 4 (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1425
GVW = 1785
Max towing weight = 1500
Max trailer plated MAM = 1425 kgs

*MOST POPULAR
Nissan X trail (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1515
GVW = 2050
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs*

Kia Sportage (AWD) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1678
GVW = 2140
Towing = 1600
Max trailer plated MAM = 1360 kgs

FREELANDER 1 (2001 - 2005)
Unladen/kerb = 1500
GVW = 2040
Towing = 1800
Max trailer plated MAM = 1460 kgs

SUBARU FORRESTER (4X4) 
Unladen/kerb = 1465 minimum
GVW = 2050 maximum
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs

Skoda Yeti (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Kerb = 1530
GVW = 2070
Towing capacity = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1430 kgs 


Deduct trailer unladen weight from max trailer plated weight to get maximum load/horse weight for the trailer
Example:- Nissan (1450) minus IFOR HB403 (770 appx) = load/horse 680 kgs


----------



## joolie (7 September 2012)

That's brilliant - thanks again for your help!


----------



## Shutterbug (7 September 2012)

ROG thank you for all your help over the last few weeks   I have today collected my 2003 Nissan Terrano 2.7 TDI in a lovely reddish burgandy next purchase.......horsebox


----------



## Renvers (7 September 2012)

Thanks for the links ROG


----------



## ROG (8 September 2012)

Hevs said:



			ROG thank you for all your help over the last few weeks   I have today collected my 2003 Nissan Terrano 2.7 TDI in a lovely reddish burgandy next purchase.......horsebox 

Click to expand...




joolie said:



			That's brilliant - thanks again for your help! 

Click to expand...




Renvers said:



			Thanks for the links ROG 

Click to expand...

Glad to be of help


----------



## Overgrown Pony (10 September 2012)

Hi ROG

Hi there

Thanks so much for this. 

1. License = B
2. Unladen car = kerb weight = 1557kg (states minimum)
3. GVW = Gross Vehicle Weight = 2180kg
4. Tow capacity = 2000kg
5. Trailer MAM = 1400kg
6. Trailer unladen weight = 600kg

This is for a brand new Cheval Liberte GOLD ONE (mare & foal trailer) which is downplated, being towed by a 2009 Ford Mondeo 2ltr TDCi 140bhp. Horse is around 600kg tops.

Thank you


----------



## ROG (10 September 2012)

1kimmy said:



			Hi ROG

Hi there

Thanks so much for this. 

1. License = B
2. Unladen car = kerb weight = 1557kg (states minimum)
3. GVW = Gross Vehicle Weight = 2180kg
4. Tow capacity = 2000kg
5. Trailer MAM = 1400kg
6. Trailer unladen weight = 600kg

This is for a brand new Cheval Liberte GOLD ONE (mare & foal trailer) which is downplated, being towed by a 2009 Ford Mondeo 2ltr TDCi 140bhp. Horse is around 600kg tops.

Thank you
		
Click to expand...

*ILLEGAL FOR B LICENCE TOWING* 
But easy to remedy  - Down plate trailer to 1300 MAM 


After down plating to 1300 MAM ..... this will be legal for B licence towing
Vehicle GVW 2180 added to trailer MAM 1300 = 3480 which is less than the 3500 maximum allowed 
1300 MAM is less than the 1557 kerbweight 
Trailer unladen weight 600 added to horse weight 600 = 1200 which is under the 1300 MAM


----------



## Overgrown Pony (10 September 2012)

Cheers ROG!  Much appreciated


----------



## flaxen (10 September 2012)

Hi, would this work

1. License = B
2. Unladen car = kerb weight = 1400kg (states minimum)
3. GVW = Gross Vehicle Weight = 1950kg
4. Tow capacity = 1850kg
5. Trailer MAM = 1450kg
6. Trailer unladen weight = 750kg

This is just a question if it is legal. Grand Vitara, and downplated sinclair.

Thanks.


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## ROG (11 September 2012)

flaxen said:



			Hi, would this work

1. License = B
2. Unladen car = kerb weight = 1400kg (states minimum)
3. GVW = Gross Vehicle Weight = 1950kg
4. Tow capacity = 1850kg
5. Trailer MAM = 1450kg
6. Trailer unladen weight = 750kg

This is just a question if it is legal. Grand Vitara, and downplated sinclair.

Thanks.
		
Click to expand...

Nearly legal but not quite .....

Under current law, which may be scrapped in Jan 2013, the trailer MAM cannot be more than the vehicle kerbweight
In your senario the trailer MAM is 50 kgs too much

Down plate trailer to 1400 and its then legal 

Would the authorities bother to prosecute if you left it at 1450? - I doubt it
Would the insurance company refuse to cover in an incident? - probably yes


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## ROG (11 September 2012)

flaxen said:



			2. Unladen car = kerb weight = 1400kg (states minimum)

6. Trailer unladen weight = 750kg
		
Click to expand...

Small point of law - any unbraked trailer cannot be more than half of the kerb weight so number 6 should be 700 kgs max


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## Jonty (12 September 2012)

I have a Nissan Elgrand 3.2 turbo diesel. It is an import from Japan and is a switchable 4WD 8 seater people carrier. The VIN plate has no information regarding weights (towing or otherwise) and visiting a weighbridge has revealed a kerb weight of 2220 kg.
There is plenty of dialogue on the owners websites regarding towing but little that is concrete information. Most people seem to use the 85% of the kerb weight rule recommended by the caravan club.
Nissan won't supply any weight information for the vehicle
I would like to tow a large (1500kg UW) tri axle trailer carrying a load in the region of 800kg.
Is there any way I can determine the GVW of the vehicle in order to ascertain the GTW and be certain of being within the law?
I have a B+E licence and have had since 1981.
Many Thanks.
Jonty


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## ROG (12 September 2012)

Jonty said:



			I have a Nissan Elgrand 3.2 turbo diesel. It is an import from Japan and is a switchable 4WD 8 seater people carrier. The VIN plate has no information regarding weights (towing or otherwise) and visiting a weighbridge has revealed a kerb weight of 2220 kg.
There is plenty of dialogue on the owners websites regarding towing but little that is concrete information. Most people seem to use the 85% of the kerb weight rule recommended by the caravan club.
Nissan won't supply any weight information for the vehicle
I would like to tow a large (1500kg UW) tri axle trailer carrying a load in the region of 800kg.
Is there any way I can determine the GVW of the vehicle in order to ascertain the GTW and be certain of being within the law?
I have a B+E licence and have had since 1981.
Many Thanks.
Jonty
		
Click to expand...

*WELCOME* 
ALL I CAN FIND SO FAR

Elgrand forum in OZ


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## Jonty (12 September 2012)

Thanks Rog, much appreciated.
Regards.
Jonty


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## flying solo (12 September 2012)

Hi Rog, i am looking to tow a Sinclair trailer 750kg unladen, 2000kg max with a Santa fe 2.7 v6 2002 on a b licence although having lessons at the moment so will be doing my b&e shortly. Am I legal? It's all so confusing


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## ROG (13 September 2012)

flying solo said:



			Hi Rog, i am looking to tow a Sinclair trailer 750kg unladen, 2000kg max with a Santa fe 2.7 v6 2002 on a b licence although having lessons at the moment so will be doing my b&e shortly. Am I legal? It's all so confusing
		
Click to expand...

Hyundai Santa Fe 2.0 TD 5DR 2002
Gross vehicle weight 2380 kg 
Max towing weight (braked) 2300 kg 
Minimum kerb weight 1718 kg 

This would definitely need to be driven under B+E licence rules either full or provisional

With a GVW of 2380 that only leaves 1120 for the trailer MAM

If you have the trailer downplated to 1120 for B licence towing and deducted the unladen weight of 750 then that would only leave 370 for the horse/load !!!!!


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## flying solo (13 September 2012)

Would fit the Shetland for pony club then haha thanks ROG 

Will keep practising my reversing :-(


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## Sharpie (16 September 2012)

Hello, I am totally new to the world of towing.... ARGH lol

I am a B license holder
I am selling my little lorry as I have been gifted a IW 505 trailer and looking to get a 4x4 that will tow the trailer and 1 horse only. 

Now I have looked at hundreds of 4x4's but am still none the wiser as to which will do the job best. I will happily take my towing test if needs be BUT after reading through many of these posts on the subject I am intrigued at the idea of avoiding the extra expense of a towing test if i can? I however am very cautious of legal requirements.

Is there a 4x4 + IW505 tailer combination that would leave me enough capacity to carry one 550kg approx horse on a B license??

Appreciate anybodies help....really new to these sums lol


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## ROG (16 September 2012)

Sharpie said:



			Hello, I am totally new to the world of towing.... ARGH lol

I am a B license holder
I am selling my little lorry as I have been gifted a IW 505 trailer and looking to get a 4x4 that will tow the trailer and 1 horse only. 

Now I have looked at hundreds of 4x4's but am still none the wiser as to which will do the job best. I will happily take my towing test if needs be BUT after reading through many of these posts on the subject I am intrigued at the idea of avoiding the extra expense of a towing test if i can? I however am very cautious of legal requirements.

*Is there a 4x4 + IW505 tailer combination that would leave me enough capacity to carry one 550kg approx horse on a B license??*

Appreciate anybodies help....really new to these sums lol



Click to expand...

Scrub last answer - 

What weight is the horse?


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## Sharpie (16 September 2012)

Oh thats VERY helpful!! thank you.

I have been gifted a IW 505 though not 510? does that make any difference as I know the 505 is quite a bit smaller than the 510? 

AND sorry but what is "downplated", sorry to make you repeat yourself over and over lol 

and finally would a Hyundai Tucson be a suitable vehicle aswell as the brill list you gave me?

Thank you


----------



## ROG (16 September 2012)

Sharpie said:



			Oh thats VERY helpful!! thank you.

I have been gifted a IW 505 though not 510? does that make any difference as I know the 505 is quite a bit smaller than the 510? 

AND sorry but what is "downplated", sorry to make you repeat yourself over and over lol 

and finally would a Hyundai Tucson be a suitable vehicle aswell as the brill list you gave me?

Thank you 

Click to expand...

Sorry last answer not correct so editted post

505 is 920 kgs unladen and I think about 2600 kgs plated MAM

Down plating the MAM is required for B licence towing and that is done by contacting Ifor Williams - cost = very little or none

What weight is horse ?


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## Sharpie (16 September 2012)

I would want to give 520kg min for horse if poss?

Thank you


----------



## ROG (16 September 2012)

Sharpie said:



			I would want to give 520kg min for horse if poss?

Thank you 

Click to expand...

OK let me have another go and get it right this time ..... LOL

The trailer is 920 empty
The horse is say 530
That totals 1450 without anything else being put in the trailer so be careful with what comes next regarding weights ...

Contact trailer manufacturer to have trailer downplated if needed (free or very little cost)

Nissan X trail (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1515
GVW = 2050
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs

FREELANDER 1 (2001 - 2005)
Unladen/kerb = 1500
GVW = 2040
Towing = 1800
Max trailer plated MAM = 1460 kgs

SUBARU FORRESTER (4X4) 
Unladen/kerb = 1465 minimum
GVW = 2050 maximum
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs


Deduct trailer unladen weight from max trailer plated weight to get maximum load/horse weight for the trailer
Example:- Nissan (1450) minus IFOR HB505 (920 appx) = load/horse 530 kgs


----------



## ROG (16 September 2012)

Sharpie said:



			and finally would a Hyundai Tucson be a suitable vehicle
		
Click to expand...

No

That has a GVW of 2210 so only leaves a max 1290 for the trailer MAM

2210+1290=3500 which is the max for B licence towing


----------



## Sharpie (16 September 2012)

Just looking into the right vehicle now, so tricky to make sure your within limits... :/


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## Sharpie (16 September 2012)

So im really best off with a freelander, rav4, suzuki vitara type vehicle? Only ive heard they can be pretty lame at towing? :/


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## ROG (16 September 2012)

Sharpie said:



			LOL Thank you

So here goes.....
Hyundai Tucson (4X4) 
Unladen/kerb = 1628 minimum
GVW = 2140 maximum
Towing = 1600
Max trailer plated MAM = 1360

so horse of 440kg max?

Sooo confusing....lol
		
Click to expand...

you are not confused because you have it spot on  .... 440 is the max for the horse/load when you deuct the 920

Well done


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## ROG (16 September 2012)

You could be cheeky and sell or part exchange the 505 for a lighter trailer


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## Sharpie (16 September 2012)

I would like to be seen to be using it if at all possible, i hate offending people especially being so kind to me in first place 

So would a rav4 (4x4) work if it has
Unladen/kerb = 1425
GVW = 1785
Towing = 1500
with the IW 505 on a B license for one horse of 520? Iv done so many sums on so many cars my brains turned to mush lol 

Or could you break down for me what vehicles i should look at mainly to stay within B license rules?

Thanks for your help


----------



## ROG (16 September 2012)

Sharpie said:



			I would like to be seen to be using it if at all possible, i hate offending people especially being so kind to me in first place 

So would a rav4 (4x4) work if it has
Unladen/kerb = 1425
GVW = 1785
Towing = 1500
with the IW 505 on a B license for one horse of 520? Iv done so many sums on so many cars my brains turned to mush lol 

Or could you break down for me what vehicles i should look at mainly to stay within B license rules?

Thanks for your help
		
Click to expand...

Max trailer MAM would be 1425 with that RAV because under B licence towing rules the trailer MAM cannot be more than the vehicle kerbweight
That would leave 505 kgs for the horse/load

Needing a trailer MAM of 1450 minimum (tight on weight at that - would be better at 1500) then you need a vehicle with these weight specs - 
Maximum GVW 2050
Minimum kerbweight 1450
Minimum towing capacity 1450

At 1500 trailer MAM then a vehicle with these specs =
Max GVW 2000
Min kerb 1500
Min towing capacity 1500

Your 505 unladen weight is really holding you back for B licence towing


----------



## Sharpie (16 September 2012)

I getya, yes it would seem so......Darn it :/ 

Do you see freelanders mostly used for this scenario? Or would you suggest a vehicle that meets weight req's and that is upto the job?


----------



## ROG (17 September 2012)

Sharpie said:



			I getya, yes it would seem so......Darn it :/ 

Do you see freelanders mostly used for this scenario? Or would you suggest a vehicle that meets weight req's and that is upto the job?
		
Click to expand...

Most vehicles are up to the job if the towing capacity says so

All vehicles have problems of one sort or another 

Depending on what type of surfaces need to be driven on will determine whether a 4X4 is required or not

In my signature below there is a link to a thread where members have rated thie vehicle and trailer combinations


----------



## ds2107 (19 September 2012)

Hi, please help!
I have a 2011 rav4 sold to me as capable of towing my 2 ponies, however after reading posts here I am unsure if it will be safe.
I have 2 natives weighing 900kg total.

1. BE license
2. 1600kg
3. 2140kg
4. 2000kg
5. 2600kg
6.920kg

Please let me know if this would be safe. 
Many thanks


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## ds2107 (20 September 2012)

Re above, I have not bought the trailer yet, so if this trailer is too heavy (iw 506), what would be the max trailer weight to be safe? Thank you so much!


----------



## ROG (20 September 2012)

ds2107 said:



			Hi, please help!
I have a 2011 rav4 sold to me as capable of towing my 2 ponies, however after reading posts here I am unsure if it will be safe.
I have 2 natives weighing *900kg* total.

... I have not bought the trailer yet, so if this trailer is too heavy (iw 506), what would be the max trailer weight to be safe? Thank you so much!

1. BE license
2. 1600kg
3. 2140kg
*4. 2000kg*
5. 2600kg
*6.920kg*

Please let me know if this would be safe. 
Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

It is both safe and legal 

Using the lower figure between numbers 4 and 5 which is 2000 then 920+900=1820 leaving you with 180 kgs spare


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## ds2107 (23 September 2012)

Thanks ROG!


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## ROG (24 September 2012)

For anybody wondering why I have disabled my PM system ....

I started to get too many queries on towing and LGV issues and although I am fairly confident in answering them correctly there is always the possiblilty that some answers might be incorrect and without them being publically visible there is no chance of being corrected.

I am still very happy to answer queries publically so please choose the apropriate Towing clinic or LGV clinic link in my signature below to ask on


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## luce1 (27 September 2012)

Hey Rog 

Can you recommend any other places in surrey/hampshire that do C1 courses?

Thanks 
Lucy


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## ROG (27 September 2012)

luce1 said:



			Hey Rog 

Can you recommend any other places in surrey/hampshire that do C1 courses?

Thanks 
Lucy
		
Click to expand...

ANSWERED in The HHO LGV (HGV) Info clinic see post 19


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## joolie (30 September 2012)

Ok....

B licence only

Subaru Forester
Min kerb weight 1460
GVW 2000
Max towing weight (braked) 2000

Looking to tow 1 x 550kg horse in an Ifor 401 single horse. Trailer to be downplated. Is this legal? Think it is but so many figures I'm confused!! 

Thank you


----------



## ROG (30 September 2012)

joolie said:



			Ok....

B licence only

Subaru Forester
Min kerb weight 1460
GVW 2000
Max towing weight (braked) 2000

Looking to tow 1 x 550kg horse in an Ifor 401 single horse. Trailer to be downplated. Is this legal? Think it is but so many figures I'm confused!! 

Thank you 

Click to expand...

If your figures are correct then downplate the 401 to a maximum of 1460kgs and that will be legal for B licence towing 

The figures I have for that vehicle - might be a slightly different model
SUBARU FORRESTER (4X4) 
Unladen/kerb = 1465 minimum
GVW = 2050 maximum
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs

The 401 weighs 770 empty so with a 550 horse and perhaps some tack etc the total weight will probably be about 1400 which is well within a 1450 trailer MAM and the 2000 towing capacity


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## joolie (30 September 2012)

Figures just taken quickly from autotrader as a rough idea. Thanks very much - taken a little while to get my head around weights etc but starting to make sence!!


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## ROG (30 September 2012)

joolie said:



			Figures just taken quickly from autotrader as a rough idea. Thanks very much - taken a little while to get my head around weights etc but starting to make sence!!
		
Click to expand...

Basically two simple rules for B licence towing - 

Vehicle GVW added to trailer MAM must not be more than 3500

Trailer MAM must not be more than vehicle kerbweight


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## luckyhorseshoe (30 September 2012)

Hi,

I've recently been given the options for my new company car.
I was thinking that I might be able to tow a single horse trailer behind one of them but now I've seen them I'm not so sure. Could I pm you the list to look at?


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## ROG (30 September 2012)

luckyhorseshoe said:



			Hi,

I've recently been given the options for my new company car.
I was thinking that I might be able to tow a single horse trailer behind one of them but now I've seen them I'm not so sure. Could I pm you the list to look at?
		
Click to expand...

PM disabled so please post here

I will need more than basic info as there can be many models of each type


----------



## luckyhorseshoe (30 September 2012)

Ok will get all the details and post tomorrow 
Thanks


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## Gamebird (3 October 2012)

Quick Q please:
Am I allowed to tow at 50mph in a 50mph zone? I am aware that I have to do 50 in a 60 and 60 on a motorway but have always wondered about a 50mph limit - there is about 10 miles of this (rural, wide straight A road so 50mph would be quite safe if legal) on the way to our local comp centre.

Thanks in advance.


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## ROG (3 October 2012)

Gamebird said:



			Quick Q please:
Am I allowed to tow at 50mph in a 50mph zone? I am aware that I have to do 50 in a 60 and 60 on a motorway but have always wondered about a 50mph limit - there is about 10 miles of this (rural, wide straight A road so 50mph would be quite safe if legal) on the way to our local comp centre.

Thanks in advance.
		
Click to expand...

Each vehicle type has a maximum speed limit for a type of road no matter if the posted limit is hiigher

If the posted limit is lower than the max limit allowed for the type of vehicle you are driving then you go by the posted limit

There is no law that says you have to go X amount below a posted limit

Example:-
NSL SC = 60 for cars and 50 for trailers
Same road with 50 limit = 50 for cars and 50 for trailers


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## Gamebird (3 October 2012)

Brilliant thanks.


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## ROG (4 October 2012)

lttray said:



			I think this is the right place to post this, apologies if not, I am new to forums. I am unsure of my towing capacity.

I have an Audi A4, TDi, 1.9cc with the follwing stats;
- Unladen weight 1560KG
- Permissable max towing mas of trailer 1600Kg (braked) & 750Kg (Unbraked)
- Max Permissable mass is 2040 (exc. m/c) & Mass in service 1635
- This vehicle has a removable towbar which I am told is OK for towing trailers, is this correct?

We also have a Toyota Hiace campervan with 4 wheel drive. Currently it does not have a tow bar but we could put one on. The only stats I have for it are as follows;
- Revenue weight - 2595KG (Gross)
- 2779CC

I hold a B license (passed 1999) and am looking to get a light weight trailer for example a Cheval Liberte. I have a 16'1 horse who weighs around 560Kg. I would only want to tow him.

I would prefer to use the car to tow, but I am unsure if this is possible.

If I can tow with the car what is the max gross weight of trailer I can pull?

Any advice would be greatly welcome. If you need any more info please let me know.
		
Click to expand...

Toyota for B licence towing will not work 
The AUDI will work for B licence towing 

AUDI
GVW 2040
Kerb 1560
Towing 1600

Trailer
Maximum plated MAM of 1460

1460+2040=3500 which is the max allowed for B licence towing
1460 is less than 1560 so the rule where the trailer MAM cannot be more than the vehicle kerbweight is ok

Downplate the cheval liberte trailer if more than 1460 by contacting the manufacturer - little or no cost

Cheval single horse trailers are about 660 unladen so add the weight of the horse (560) to that and you get a total of 1210 which is well under 1460 and well inside the 1600 towing capacity of the AUDI

ADD - *WELCOME*


----------



## lttray (4 October 2012)

Excellent. Thank you so much.


----------



## NikNak1 (7 October 2012)

Hi,

I am a bit confused by all the towing regulations, I think I know the answer to this question but thought it might be helpful to check as it is all about as clear as mud!!

I only have the B licence & was hoping to tow a trailer tent to a horse camp we are going to (so it is technically horse related!!) I would be using my parents P reg landrover discovery which I think is:
2080 kerbweight (I can't find unladed weight in the handbook - is this the same thing??
Gross weight 2720 (is this the same as MAM??)
Plated Trailer weight - 935kg 
Unladen weight - ?? (as yet have not been able to find this)

From my understanding of the regs I wouldn't be able to tow this on a B licence as the gross weight of the landrover + trailer is more than 3.5 ton - is this right??  Would I be right in thinking I would be able to tow it with a lighter car provided that the car is heavier than the trailer??  Seems bizarre seeing as a landrover is prob safer to tow with than a 'normal' car but if thems the rules...!! 

Sorry for all the questions & thanks in anticipation for your help!! I suspect I will need to rely on good old mum & dad again, one day I will get round to getting my B+E!


----------



## ROG (7 October 2012)

NikNak1 said:



			Hi,

I am a bit confused by all the towing regulations, I think I know the answer to this question but thought it might be helpful to check as it is all about as clear as mud!!

I only have the B licence & was hoping to tow a trailer tent to a horse camp we are going to (so it is technically horse related!!) I would be using my parents P reg landrover discovery which I think is:
2080 kerbweight (I can't find unladed weight in the handbook - is this the same thing??
Gross weight 2720 (is this the same as MAM??)
Plated Trailer weight - 935kg 
Unladen weight - ?? (as yet have not been able to find this)

From my understanding of the regs I wouldn't be able to tow this on a B licence as the gross weight of the landrover + trailer is more than 3.5 ton - is this right??  Would I be right in thinking I would be able to tow it with a lighter car provided that the car is heavier than the trailer??  Seems bizarre seeing as a landrover is prob safer to tow with than a 'normal' car but if thems the rules...!! 

Sorry for all the questions & thanks in anticipation for your help!! I suspect I will need to rely on good old mum & dad again, one day I will get round to getting my B+E!
		
Click to expand...

*WELCOME* 

2720 GVW means a max trailer plated MAM of 780 kgs for B licence towing

If someone is with you who has the B+E for more than 3 years then stick L plates on, inform insurer and tow it on your current B+E provisional


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## NikNak1 (7 October 2012)

That is what I thought, thank you for confirming


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## avthechav (7 October 2012)

Hi ROG, is it legal to tow a small horse in an Ifor 505 with a Hyundai Tucson?

Vehicle has a GVW of 2000kg, kerb weight of 1810kg

Trailer is 905kg unladen

Someone has told me that this could be ok if the trailer was downplated from 2300 or whatever a 505 is to 1500?

Any help gratefully recieved :-D


----------



## ROG (8 October 2012)

avthechav said:



			Hi ROG, is it legal to tow a small horse in an Ifor 505 with a Hyundai Tucson?

Vehicle has a GVW of *2000kg*, kerb weight of *1810kg*

Trailer is 905kg unladen

Someone has told me that this could be ok if the trailer was downplated from 2300 or whatever a 505 is to 1500?

Any help gratefully recieved :-D
		
Click to expand...

*The difference between kerb and GVW weights are always about 500 kgs so not sure you have the right weights* 

I have found this example for your vehicle:-
Hyundai Tucson (4X4) 
Unladen/kerb = 1628 minimum
GVW = 2140 maximum
Towing = 1600
Max trailer plated MAM = 1360 = horse of 455kg max for B licence towing
For B+E licence towing no need to downplate and the max horse/load weight is just under 700 kgs


----------



## avthechav (8 October 2012)

Thanks ROG :-D


----------



## ROG (8 October 2012)

avthechav said:



			Thanks ROG :-D
		
Click to expand...

I can give you a more definitive answer if you can give me these weights = 

Vehicle (please check carefully on V5 form, plate on car or in handbook)
GVW = 
Kerb = 
Towing capacity = 

Trailer
unladen =905
MAM = 2300

Weight of horse/load =


----------



## Princess P (9 October 2012)

ROG please can I pick your brains once again?

I have just bought a new trailer, a 2006 equi trek show trekka L. I have a mitsubishi shogun sport.

When my old trailer (cheval liberte) was hitched the whole outfit looked level, but when the equi trek is hitched it looks like the tow bar is too low.

The tow bar can be raised a couple of inches as there is a drop plate type thing and it could go up a hole, but only 2 or so inches and I'm not sure if that's enough.

So my question is: how do I know the correct height for the towbar? Is it just so the trailer is level? Will is impact suspension etc or more importantly safety towing if tow bar too low? 

Thanks in advance for any advice!


----------



## ROG (9 October 2012)

Princess P said:



			ROG please can I pick your brains once again?

I have just bought a new trailer, a 2006 equi trek show trekka L. I have a mitsubishi shogun sport.

When my old trailer (cheval liberte) was hitched the whole outfit looked level, but when the equi trek is hitched it looks like the tow bar is too low.

The tow bar can be raised a couple of inches as there is a drop plate type thing and it could go up a hole, but only 2 or so inches and I'm not sure if that's enough.

So my question is: how do I know the correct height for the towbar? Is it just so the trailer is level? Will is impact suspension etc or more importantly safety towing if tow bar too low? 

Thanks in advance for any advice!


Click to expand...

Not my area of expertise so I recommend that you take it to a nearby trailer dealer or find another nearby who really knows their stuff on this issue


----------



## Princess P (9 October 2012)

Ok Thanks Rog


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## ROG (10 October 2012)

SouthWestWhippet said:



			I'm wondering if I can safely (and legaly) tow my Bahill pony box (braked trailer, unladen weight 550kg) with a Skoda Octavia hatchback?

Would be carrying one pony, 14hh,  approximately 475kg I think. I would also remove the central partition in trailer which would bring the weight down further. 

I don't have a towing license yet. Would aim to get one but would prefer the chance to practice lots first so being able tow legally with this combo would be great for me. 

thanks
		
Click to expand...

There are so many models of skoda octavia that I need more info to determine which it is or if you have the V5 registered keeprs form then the weights on that will do

I also need to know the plated MAM of the trailer


----------



## ROG (10 October 2012)

marioforever said:



			I passed my driving test well before 1997 but am I right in thinking that the only Ifor Williams trailer I can safely tow is their mare and foal one, the HB403? My CRV is a 2005 2L petrol  automatic and I know not ideal for towing.  I have one 15 hand horse and only ever want to carry her.  A friend of mine tows a Ifor 505 with one horse with the same car, but I dont want to be unsafe or illegal!  Perhaps this is one for ROG. Would be grateful if anyone can help. Thanks
		
Click to expand...

From my research that particular model has a towing capacity of 1500 kgs

That means the unladen/empty weight of the trailer added to the horse/load should not exceed a total of 1500 kgs

I think the HB505 is 905 unladen so that leaves 595 for the horse/load


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## Bustalot (12 October 2012)

Hi Rog 

Can you help me calculate this to beable to tow on a B license please?

Vehicle Ford Mondeo Zetec 2L diesel (62 plate)
GVW 1575 (i think)  
Kerb not sure
Towing capacity 2000kilos 

Looking at a single ifor williams trailer 
Unladen 770 kilos 
With horse 1370 kilos 

Not sure of the MAM of the trailer. I will have to down plate it i guess? But not sure what to 

Thanks


----------



## ROG (12 October 2012)

Bustalot said:



			Hi Rog 

Can you help me calculate this to beable to tow on a B license please?

Vehicle Ford Mondeo Zetec 2L diesel (62 plate)
GVW 1575 (i think)  
Kerb not sure
Towing capacity 2000kilos 

Looking at a single ifor williams trailer 
Unladen 770 kilos 
With horse 1370 kilos 

Not sure of the MAM of the trailer. I will have to down plate it i guess? But not sure what to 

Thanks 

Click to expand...

IS THIS CLOSE TO YOUR MODEL ?
GVW 2180
KERB 1557
TOWING 2000

HB401
UNLADEN 770
MAM 1600

HORSE/LOAD 600


ASSUMING this is your current set up then the max trailer plated MAM can be 1320 because 1320+2180=3500 which is the max for B licence towing

770+600=1370 which is more than 1320 by 50 so it would not work out 

Please try and get the V5 registered keepers form so you can post the exact weights for your car and then I will recalculate in the hope that it might work especially if the GVW is not more than 2100


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## Bustalot (12 October 2012)

ROG said:



IS THIS CLOSE TO YOUR MODEL ?
GVW 2180
KERB 1557
TOWING 2000

HB401
UNLADEN 770
MAM 1600

HORSE/LOAD 600


ASSUMING this is your current set up then the max trailer plated MAM can be 1320 because 1320+2180=3500 which is the max for B licence towing

770+600=1370 which is more than 1320 by 50 so it would not work out 

Please try and get the V5 registered keepers form so you can post the exact weights for your car and then I will recalculate in the hope that it might work especially if the GVW is not more than 2100
		
Click to expand...

Yes, thats the car. Oh well will have to take my towing test or re-think the set up. 

So based on trailer and horse weighing in at 1370 kilos. I would need a car which weighs less than 2130 kilos to tow on B license? Is that correct? Can you recommend any?
Thank you


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## ROG (12 October 2012)

How about a lighter trailer such as the Cheval Liberte GT1 which weighs 655 unladen and has a plated MAM of 1400 as standard and an internal height of 7'5" 

655+600=1255


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## ROG (12 October 2012)

THIS CAR WITH THIS TRAILER downplated to 1320 max and you are sorted


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## Bustalot (12 October 2012)

Great, thanks rog


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## EAD (16 October 2012)

Tried to figure this out myself but the more I read the more confused I get 

I have a VW Passat Estate 2L petrol.....not 100% sure if the box I can use is a 505 or 510 but will it make much difference anyway.

I have a B & E licence.

From the cars manual.....

Weights
Permissable GVW 1980
Unladen Weight 1417
Permissable front axle load 1020
Permissable rear axle load 1070

Trailer Weights
with brakes grads up to 12% 1400
with brakes grads up to 8% 1600
without brakes grads up to 12% 650

What I would be carrying would be a 14.2 (ish) pony at maybe about 400kg.

From those details can you tell me if my car is capable of towing?

Thanks


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## ROG (16 October 2012)

EAD said:



			Tried to figure this out myself but the more I read the more confused I get 

I have a VW Passat Estate 2L petrol.....not 100% sure if the box I can use is a *505 or 510* but will it make much difference anyway.

I have a *B & E* licence.

From the cars manual.....

Weights
Permissable *GVW 1980*
*Unladen Weight 1417*

Trailer Weights
*with brakes grads up to 12% 1400*
with brakes grads up to 8% 1600


What I would be carrying would be a 14.2 (ish) *pony at maybe about 400kg*.

From those details can you tell me if my car is capable of towing?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Trailer unladen would be around 920 kgs (MAM over 2000)
pony around 400 kgs
Towing capacity 1400 kgs (using lowest option)

920+400=1320 so under 1400 = all fine on a B+E licence


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## EAD (16 October 2012)

Thank you for very speedy reply


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## ROG (16 October 2012)

EAD said:



			Thank you for very speedy reply 

Click to expand...

You're welcome

Other considerations - although this may have the capacity to tow the weight will you be needing a vehicle that can cope with all sorts of terrain and conditions?

If the design towing capacity states it will pull that weight then it SHOULD and if it does not then the manufacturers need a kick up the backside !!

What can also make a difference is the WAY in which the towing vehicle handles when towing for example a short vehicle towing a long trailer will handle very differently from a long vehicle towing a short trailer etc etc

A higher vehicle such as a 4x4 will mean there is less wind drag on the trailer especially on a high trailer like a horsebox

The type of ground to be driven over is another issue which might need to be taken into consideration

To conclude -

Taking out neddy in a horsebox trailer for a few miles in good conditions over tarmac using a 2wd car will be safe enough

Taking out neddy for many miles over all sort of terrain in all sorts of conditions will be much safer using something with 4wd and more stability


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## EAD (16 October 2012)

Hmmmm I had my doubts as to whether the Passat could tow box + horse and if it would have enough umphhhh but to start of with I would only be towing a couple of miles along the road to a riding school, not a great distance and not up and down hills


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## ROG (16 October 2012)

EAD said:



			Hmmmm I had my doubts as to whether the Passat could tow box + horse and if it would have enough umphhhh but to start of with I would only be towing a couple of miles along the road to a riding school, not a great distance and not up and down hills 

Click to expand...

I cannot see any safety issues in doing that with that vehicle

I brought up the issue because others on this site have quite rightly raised concerns over what may be perfectly legal but may be not as safe as it could be when using non 4x4 type vehicles to tow horsebox trailers


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## EAD (16 October 2012)

Totally understand 

Can I just ask also is there a specific towbar that should be bought or are they all much of a muchness?


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## ROG (16 October 2012)

EAD said:



			Totally understand 

Can I just ask also is there a specific towbar that should be bought or are they all much of a muchness?
		
Click to expand...

Not my field of expertise


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## EAD (16 October 2012)

Alrighty, thanks


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## Filippa (18 October 2012)

I have just bought a BMW X5 (2004) to tow with and hope this will be legal! I currently have just the B licence but am planning to do the B+E test this winter.

I will be looking to tow a Bateson Ascot with my horse who weighs approx 600 kg. There may be another horse (max 600kg) in there with him on the odd occasion.

Looking up all the info:-

Car Kerbweight - 2100 kg
Gross Weight - 2700 kg
Max Towing Weight (braked) - 2700 kg

Unladen weight of trailer - 925 kg
Gross weight of trailer - 2300 kg

Is this all the info you need? I am so confused by all these regulations but think my car is more than legal to tow what i need. Are you able to confirm?

Thanks!


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## ROG (18 October 2012)

Filippa said:



			I have just bought a BMW X5 (2004) to tow with and hope this will be legal! I currently have just the B licence but am planning to do the B+E test this winter.

I will be looking to tow a Bateson Ascot with my horse who weighs approx 600 kg. There may be another horse (max 600kg) in there with him on the odd occasion.

Looking up all the info:-

Car Kerbweight - 2100 kg
Gross Weight - 2700 kg
Max Towing Weight (braked) - 2700 kg

Unladen weight of trailer - 925 kg
Gross weight of trailer - 2300 kg

Is this all the info you need? I am so confused by all these regulations but think my car is more than legal to tow what i need. Are you able to confirm?

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

*WELCOME* 

That would definitely need to be under B+E licence or B+E provisional towing rules

925+600+600=2125 which leaves 175 kgs spare (2300-2125=175)


This info may also be useful - 

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos


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## Jools1234 (18 October 2012)

Help, 

I am getting very frustrated with looking for a new car, I cannot justify the cost of running a 4 wheel drive, but need something that will tow 1600-1700kg legally. it will only be for local stuff if we go further i cab use a fourtrak. 

must be either an estate or hatchback due to the dogs, 

is there anywhere that i can get a comprehensive list of vehicles that would fullfill this criteria for upto £3,500?

i was thinking of a peugeot 407 sw 2.2, or a mondeo (but they are ugly), 

thaks in advance


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## ROG (18 October 2012)

jools1234 said:



			Help, 

I am getting very frustrated with looking for a new car, I cannot justify the cost of running a 4 wheel drive, but need something that will tow 1600-1700kg legally. it will only be for local stuff if we go further i cab use a fourtrak. 

must be either an estate or hatchback due to the dogs, 

is there anywhere that i can get a comprehensive list of vehicles that would fullfill this criteria for upto £3,500?

i was thinking of a peugeot 407 sw 2.2, or a mondeo (but they are ugly), 

thaks in advance
		
Click to expand...

There is no such list anywhere 
All you can do is to try and google for towing capacities of say 1700 kgs and see what comes up or trawl through a site which lists towing capacites as part of their info such as The cuddles site

What you want to do will require the driver to have a B+E licence or to be under B+E provisional rules


----------



## Jools1234 (18 October 2012)

thanx ROG

will have a look when home from work

did my test in 89 so have full liscence regards towing


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## Filippa (18 October 2012)

Thanks very much for the swift reply Rog.

Much appreaciated!

Great to know you can drive a trailer with supervision on the roads. really good to practice in before the big test!!

Also didnt realise it was an hour drive on the test - jeepers! it'll be like the driving test all over again!


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## ROG (18 October 2012)

Filippa said:



			Also didnt realise it was an hour drive on the test - jeepers! it'll be like the driving test all over again!
		
Click to expand...

But this time you are already a driver and not a novice

The DSA will still expect the mirrors (plural) and blind spot procedures to be followed but the rest of the driving should be relatively easy for you with the extra bit being out a little further on tight turns to accomodate the trailer

If you get private practice first before taking lessons then it will all be so easy

You could then be one of those who does the lot in one day - practise with a trainer in the morning and then test in the afternoon with the trainers set up


----------



## ROG (22 October 2012)

wallykissmas said:



			I'm looking at a Kia sportage details are : max kerb weight 1502, GVW 1830 so what could I pull with it ?
		
Click to expand...

KIA Sportage 2010 Technical Data 1.6 GDi 2WD 5dr
Kerb Weight 1502 kg
Gross Weight 1830 kg
*Maximum towing weight 1200 kg*
The lightest horse trailer I know of is 655 kgs and 1400 MAM so that would mean a max horse/load weight of 545 kgs

That could be legally towed on a B or B+E licence


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## Smarties (22 October 2012)

ROG 

Quick question for you it's not something I worry about as I have a class 1 HGV along with every other licence going but my OH dont she only has her B licence 

So my question is this k reg(92) landrover defender 90 and ifor 505 with a 600kg horse could she tow this and be legal ? 

Thanks fella


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## ROG (22 October 2012)

Smarties said:



			ROG 

Quick question for you it's not something I worry about as I have a class 1 HGV along with every other licence going but my OH dont she only has her B licence 

So my question is this k reg(92) landrover defender 90 and ifor 505 with a 600kg horse could she tow this and be legal ? 

Thanks fella
		
Click to expand...

From the limited info I could find ...
The defender has a high GVW kerb and towing capacity which makes it totally unsuitable weight wise for towing any horse trailer with a B licence

The 505 also has too high a MAM

She could drive it with you supervising providing the info below is complied with ....

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


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## Smarties (22 October 2012)

ROG said:



			From the limited info I could find ...
The defender has a high GVW kerb and towing capacity which makes it totally unsuitable weight wise for towing any horse trailer with a B licence

The 505 also has too high a MAM

She could drive it with you supervising providing the info below is complied with ....

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
		
Click to expand...

Thanks fella


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## WestCoast (4 November 2012)

Gross vehicle weight	 2190 kg
Max loading weight	 605 kg
Max roof load	 100 kg
Max towing weight (braked)	 2000 kg
Max towing weight (unbraked)	 750 kg
Minimum kerb weight	 1585 kg
Turning circle (kerb to kerb)	

Looking at an 09 diesel 4x4 Rav 4 2.2 - assuming it will tow a double horse box with 2 ok. Although more likelt to be single with 1.

Oh b+e per 97 licence. 

Paula


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## ROG (4 November 2012)

Paulag said:



			Gross vehicle weight	 2190 kg
Max towing weight (braked)	 2000 kg
Minimum kerb weight	 1585 kg

Looking at an 09 diesel 4x4 Rav 4 2.2 - assuming it will tow a double horse box with 2 ok. Although more likelt to be single with 1.

Oh b+e per 97 licence. 

Paula
		
Click to expand...

On a B+E licence your total actual towing weight limit is 2000 kgs
Most 2 horse trailers have a plated MAM over 2000 so that should not be an issue as the limit is still 2000

The unladen/empty weight of a 2 horse trailer is usually around 900 to 1000 kgs which would leave between 1000 to 1100 for the horses/load
That would be right at the limit with 2 horses in most cases

Check out the unladen weight of any 2 horse trailer you are considering before getting it - the lower the unladen weight the higher the available load weight


In case anyone is wondering.....
On a B licence the maximum plated trailer MAM would be 1310 kgs which is sufficient for a lightweight trailer with one horse over 500 kgs


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## WestCoast (4 November 2012)

Thanks for that ROG. still more thinking to do. 

Paula


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## Oona (5 November 2012)

Hi All,

I thought I share my way of doing this...

I did one 3 hour lesson with driving school, then just did lots of driving with whoever I could get to sit in my car (with B+E license) and with in 3 weeks I did my test with my car and my friends trailer and passed!!!

Total cost £75 for the lesson, £110 for the test = £185!!! So definitely worth doing rather than taking a risk of getting cought for not being legal!

Good luck to everyone!!!


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## lynne_macleod (5 November 2012)

Hi, Untill today i thought i was ok, im looking into getting a new trailer which will be pulled (i hope legally!?) by my Nissan XTrail Sport 6 gear manual 2004 model 2.2 diesel 
1  I have my B+E trailer test
2  Not sure and cannot find anywhere in the manual! will call Nissan CS tomorrow
3 not sure what this is?
4 2200kg
5 2500kg
6 910kg

Does this mean i can tow with my car up to 2200kg ie only with one horse?  or i cannot tow this trailer even if its empty at 910kg as it is plated at 2500kg?  Very confused!

Any help appreciated
Many Thanks


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## ROG (5 November 2012)

lynne_macleod said:



			1  I have my B+E trailer test
4 2200kg
5 2500kg
6 910kg

Does this mean i can tow with my car up to 2200kg ie only with one horse?  or i cannot tow this trailer even if its empty at 910kg as it is plated at 2500kg?
		
Click to expand...

The good thing is that you have given me all the relevant info for towing on a B+E licence 

The lower figure of numbers 4 and 5 is used so that is 2200
The trailer MAM of 2500 can legally be more than the manufacturers towing capacity of 2200

Your trailer weighs 910 empty so 2200 minus 910 = 1290
1290 is the max horse(s)/load weight for the trailer
Two horses plus trailer unladen weight is only likely to be about 2000 max so leaves 200 to play with for tack etc etc

That help?


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## lynne_macleod (5 November 2012)

Very helpful thanks so much.
I'm sure i would never (with one horses and tack and a trailer of 910kg) be any where near the car capacity of 2200kg.
So as long as the The trailer MAM of 2500 can legally be more than the manufacturers towing capacity of 2200 as long as i stay under the 2200kg  I'm a happy camper. 
I don't know why they make it so complicated! 
Thankyou


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## Bustalot (28 November 2012)

Hi Rog 
What do you know about Tow bars? 
Is there any specific type i need to tow a horse trailer? All the electrical hook up things are confusing. Ones with different numbers of pins etc...
Swan neck types / flange types / detachable types 
all seems bit of a mind field! 

If any help car is a Ford Kuga and we are trying to find a tow bar to fit without having to make a cut out in the back bumper!


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## ROG (28 November 2012)

Bustalot said:



			Hi Rog 
What do you know about Tow bars? 
Is there any specific type i need to tow a horse trailer? All the electrical hook up things are confusing. Ones with different numbers of pins etc...
Swan neck types / flange types / detachable types 
all seems bit of a mind field! 

If any help car is a Ford Kuga and we are trying to find a tow bar to fit without having to make a cut out in the back bumper!
		
Click to expand...

I know nowt about them so - TRY HERE


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## Bramble74 (29 November 2012)

ROG said:



http://www.cuddles.abelgratis.net/toyota.htm#rav407

Toyota RAV4 XT-R 2.2 D-4D 5dr Dimensions
Weights & Capacities 
Kerb Weight KG: 1,650
Gross Weight KG: 2,190
Towing Weight KG: 2,000

NOTE:- If the trailer was downplated to 1300 kgs leaving a load capacity of 645 for the horse then that would be legal for B licence towing
		
Click to expand...

Hi Rog, 

Slight variation to the above query, a 1998 Toyota Rav 4 towing weight of 1500kgs would that be ok for my lad at 435kgs plus tack in a standard Ifor e.g. HB505? Or would I be better off with a lighter trailer?

Thank you.


----------



## ROG (29 November 2012)

Bramble74 said:



			Hi Rog, 

Slight variation to the above query, a 1998 Toyota Rav 4 towing weight of 1500kgs would that be ok for my lad at 435kgs plus tack in a standard Ifor e.g. HB505? Or would I be better off with a lighter trailer?

Thank you.
		
Click to expand...

HB505
Max gross weight. 2340 kg
Unlaiden weight. 905.00 kg

Assuming this is for B licence towing .... and the weights are the same as in the previous post apart from the 2000 being 1500 ????????????
The trailer would need to be downplated to 1300 kgs
1300 minus 905 = 395 max load/horse

If for B+E licence towing then no need to downplate
1500 minus 905 = 595 max for load/horse


----------



## Bramble74 (29 November 2012)

ROG said:



			HB505
Max gross weight. 2340 kg
Unlaiden weight. 905.00 kg

Assuming this is for B licence towing .... and the weights are the same as in the previous post apart from the 2000 being 1500 ????????????
The trailer would need to be downplated to 1300 kgs
1300 minus 905 = 395 max load/horse

If for B+E licence towing then no need to downplate
1500 minus 905 = 595 max for load/horse
		
Click to expand...

Hi, sorry no this is for B+E licence towing. So I'm ok with a 505 then, I get confused with the MAM and the Max Gross Weight and what I can tow with a vehicle that has a max gross weight of 1500kg.

Thanks


----------



## ROG (29 November 2012)

Bramble74 said:



			Hi, sorry no this is for B+E licence towing. So I'm ok with a 505 then, I get confused with the MAM and the Max Gross Weight and what I can tow with a vehicle that has a max gross weight of 1500kg.

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

On a B+E licence the vehicle GVW and kerbweight have no bearing whatsoever on what it can tow
The towing capacity of the vehicle is the one to go by which in this case is 1500

The trailer MAM will only have a bearing if it is under 1500 because the trailer MAM means the maximum weight it can be when fully loaded which in this case is 2340 so well over 1500

The unladen or empty weight of the trailer is significant because that, along with the load in the trailer, will determine whether it is over the towing capacity of 1500

does that help?


----------



## Bramble74 (29 November 2012)

ROG said:



			On a B+E licence the vehicle GVW and kerbweight have no bearing whatsoever on what it can tow
The towing capacity of the vehicle is the one to go by which in this case is 1500

The trailer MAM will only have a bearing if it is under 1500 because the trailer MAM means the maximum weight it can be when fully loaded which in this case is 2340 so well over 1500

The unladen or empty weight of the trailer is significant because that, along with the load in the trailer, will determine whether it is over the towing capacity of 1500

does that help?
		
Click to expand...

That really does help, thanks so much I can stop worrying so much about it now!


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## Sparkly Snowdrop (3 December 2012)

1 - B+E (I believe, test passed pre '97)
2 - 1885
3 - 2940
4 - 5190
5 - 2000
6 - 750

I hope I've got all the right details. Vehicle is a Toyota Hilux and trailer is a Cheval Liberte 2003.


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## ROG (3 December 2012)

Sparkly Snowdrop said:



			1 - B+E (I believe, test passed pre '97)
2 - 1885
3 - 2940
4 - 5190
5 - 2000
6 - 750

I hope I've got all the right details. Vehicle is a Toyota Hilux and trailer is a Cheval Liberte 2003.
		
Click to expand...

pre 1997 = B+E so thats ok

5190 - 2940 = 2250 which is probably the manufacturers towing capacity

The max load/horse(s) for the trailer is 1250 kgs


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## Sparkly Snowdrop (3 December 2012)

ROG said:



			pre 1997 = B+E so thats ok

5190 - 2940 = 2250 which is probably the manufacturers towing capacity

The max load/horse(s) for the trailer is 1250 kgs
		
Click to expand...

Thank you ROG, you are a star.


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## Ranyhyn (5 December 2012)

Can someone on a B license, tow a trailer with a horse in, WITHOUT doing it under the learner umbrella?


----------



## ROG (5 December 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			Can someone on a B license, tow a trailer with a horse in, WITHOUT doing it under the learner umbrella?
		
Click to expand...

YES

It does require the right vehicle and trailer to stay within the confines of the law

The laws are - 
The vehicle GVW added to the trailer plated MAM must not be more than 3500 kgs
The trailer plated MAM must not be more than the vehicle kerbweight

There are loads of legal B licence towing examples throughout this 800 post thread


----------



## Ranyhyn (5 December 2012)

Ok, so I assume you'd struggle to make that 3500kgs limit, with the below (not knowing the GVW or MAM of my car and trailer)

L200 warrior
Ifor Williams HB505
575kg horse


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## ROG (5 December 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			Ok, so I assume you'd struggle to make that 3500kgs limit, with the below (not knowing the GVW or MAM of my car and trailer)

L200 warrior
Ifor Williams HB505
575kg horse
		
Click to expand...

Not a hope with that combination

From my failing memory ..... the L200 has a high GVW of 2500 kgs ?? - the HB505 has a MAM of 2000+ kgs

Downplating the trailer will be of no use in this case


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## Ranyhyn (5 December 2012)

In this instance, I'm guessing you'd need a lighter less beefy tow vehicle but then, it wouldn't be ideal for towing a heavy trailer and big horse I suppose!

Thanks Rog!


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## ROG (5 December 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			In this instance, I'm guessing you'd need a lighter less beefy tow vehicle but then, it wouldn't be ideal for towing a heavy trailer and big horse I suppose!

Thanks Rog!
		
Click to expand...

EH !!!

Plenty tow a 600 kg horse safely in a lightweight trailer with a 4X4 that conforms to B licence towing rules


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## Ranyhyn (5 December 2012)

Ok, well that puts a different spin on things!

Ok so say I towed with my Freelander... what trailer would I need to tow alone?


----------



## ROG (5 December 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			Ok, well that puts a different spin on things!

Ok so say I towed with my Freelander... what trailer would I need to tow alone?
		
Click to expand...

What is the GVW, kerbweight and towing capacity of the Freelander?


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## Ranyhyn (5 December 2012)

I don't know.  It's out on the drive and it's dark.
Can I come back in the morning equipped with the details?


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## ROG (5 December 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			I don't know.  It's out on the drive and it's dark.
Can I come back in the morning equipped with the details? 

Click to expand...

Sure - anytime


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## Bustalot (12 December 2012)

Another question. 

Say tow vehicle has max tow weight of 2100kilos. Can I still tow an ifor Williams trailer which has a MAM higher than that? I will not be towing anywhere near the MAM of the trailer or anywhere near the max tow weight of the vehicle. But have heard the cars max tow weight should be higher than the MAM of the trailer. True or false? Towing on b+e license.


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## ROG (12 December 2012)

Bustalot said:



			Another question. 

Say tow vehicle has max tow weight of 2100kilos. Can I still tow an ifor Williams trailer which has a MAM higher than that? I will not be towing anywhere near the MAM of the trailer or anywhere near the max tow weight of the vehicle.* But have heard the cars max tow weight should be higher than the MAM of the trailer*. True or false? Towing on b+e license.
		
Click to expand...

That is an internet myth

There is no law or rule which states the trailer plated MAM (law) cannot be more than the manufacturers recommended towing capacity (not law)


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## Bustalot (12 December 2012)

Great thanks for confirming Rog. come new year transport should be good to go... Can't wait


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## ROG (25 December 2012)

This thread has gone fairly quiet lately so perhaps thats a good thing as it might mean everyones issues have been sorted


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## HBBambee (1 January 2013)

Can you help with mine please ROG 
 Nissan navara twin cab gross weight 2860
cant find kerb weight 
Ifor williams 505
400kg pony 
Thanks


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## ROG (2 January 2013)

HBBambee said:



			Can you help with mine please ROG 
 Nissan navara twin cab gross weight 2860
cant find kerb weight 
Ifor williams 505
400kg pony 
Thanks
		
Click to expand...

I found this info which may be your vehicle
Gross Train Weight 5860
Gross Vehicle Weight 2860
Max. Towing Weight - Braked 3000
Minimum Kerbweight 1790

On a B+E licence you are easily legal weight wise


----------



## JenHunt (2 January 2013)

right.... think the fourtrak has died and need to set about researching the best towing vehicle for my needs....

trailer is monstrously heavy (1200kg unladen, but braked) and will mostly be towing 2 600kg horses....

there used to be a website that would point you in the direction of the right vehicle but can I 'eckaslike find it.... looks like I'll be trawling through this thread...


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## ROG (3 January 2013)

BoxingdayHunt said:



			right.... think the fourtrak has died and need to set about researching the best towing vehicle for my needs....

trailer is monstrously heavy (1200kg unladen, but braked) and will mostly be towing 2 600kg horses....

there used to be a website that would point you in the direction of the right vehicle but can I 'eckaslike find it.... looks like I'll be trawling through this thread...
		
Click to expand...

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_vehicles.htm
Put in the weight you want to tow and click search
That will give you a few ideas


----------



## perfect11s (4 January 2013)

BoxingdayHunt said:



			right.... think the fourtrak has died and need to set about researching the best towing vehicle for my needs....

trailer is monstrously heavy (1200kg unladen, but braked) and will mostly be towing 2 600kg horses....

there used to be a website that would point you in the direction of the right vehicle but can I 'eckaslike find it.... looks like I'll be trawling through this thread...
		
Click to expand...

 You would be looking at a discovery , shogun   ,landcruiser Ie the bigger class of 4x4 2.5 liter or bigger or a  pick up like an isuzu, ranger or L200   older hiluxs are only rated to tow 2250,  I would look for about 2600+ kg tow capacity..


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## silverstar2013 (7 January 2013)

Hi, I'm new to the forums so please be gentle with me!

Looking for advice regarding single trailer and vehicle. I want to check if I would be legal with the following please:

* I have a B licence (passed driving test 1999)
* Trailer is an Ifor Williams 401
* Vehicle (that I'm looking to purchase) is Land Rover Freelander 2.0 XE Di Station Wagon 5dr Diesel 1998

As I have not yet purchased the towing vehicle I am open minded about what I could buy that would safely do the towing job, any guidance would be much appreciated, thank you


----------



## ROG (7 January 2013)

silverstar2013 said:



			Hi, I'm new to the forums so please be gentle with me!

Looking for advice regarding single trailer and vehicle. I want to check if I would be legal with the following please:

* I have a B licence (passed driving test 1999)
* Trailer is an Ifor Williams 401
* Vehicle (that I'm looking to purchase) is Land Rover Freelander 2.0 XE Di Station Wagon 5dr Diesel 1998

As I have not yet purchased the towing vehicle I am open minded about what I could buy that would safely do the towing job, any guidance would be much appreciated, thank you
		
Click to expand...

WELCOME 

THIS VEHICLE?
GVW 2005
Kerb 1525
Towing 2000

HB 401
Unladen 770
MAM 1600 but will need downplating to 1495 maximum to conform to B licence towing rules - contact Ifor Williams

If downplated to 1495 then the max load/horse will be 725 kgs


----------



## silverstar2013 (7 January 2013)

Thank you ROG for such a swift reply, very much appreciated. Yes, that is the vehicle.

Would I have to downplate to be legal? I've had different advice from 2 different Ifor Williams approved dealers this morning and it's all very confusing


----------



## ROG (7 January 2013)

silverstar2013 said:



			Thank you ROG for such a swift reply, very much appreciated. Yes, that is the vehicle.

Would I have to downplate to be legal? I've had different advice from 2 different Ifor Williams approved dealers this morning and it's all very confusing 

Click to expand...

The rules for B licence towing are ....

The vehicle GVW (2005 in this case) added to the trailer plated MAM must not exceed 3500 kgs so 3500 minus 2005 = 1495 max MAM for trailer

The trailer plated MAM must not be more than the vehicle kerbweight (1525 in this case)


----------



## silverstar2013 (7 January 2013)

Thank you for clarifying ROG. One dealership told me that weights and vehicle etc didn't matter as long as my trailer and pony doesn't exceed the towing capacity of the car and the other dealership told me that laws had changed and that they "don't really need to downplate now" (both dealerships were made aware that I have a B licence only)

I just want peace of mind that what I'm towing is both legal and safe so I shall follow your advice and if I buy the car I will find someone who will downplate for me, thanks so much for your time and effort to help and explain it all ROG


----------



## ROG (7 January 2013)

silverstar2013 said:



			Thank you for clarifying ROG. One dealership told me that weights and vehicle etc didn't matter as long as my trailer and pony doesn't exceed the towing capacity of the car and the other dealership told me that laws had changed and that they "don't really need to downplate now" (both dealerships were made aware that I have a B licence only)

I just want peace of mind that what I'm towing is both legal and safe so I shall follow your advice and if I buy the car I will find someone who will downplate for me, thanks so much for your time and effort to help and explain it all ROG 

Click to expand...

Looks like a couple of dealers need some training on the laws

PS - only the manufacturer can downplate the trailer


----------



## silverstar2013 (7 January 2013)

ROG said:



			Looks like a couple of dealers need some training on the laws

PS - only the manufacturer can downplate the trailer
		
Click to expand...

Indeed they do need training on the laws. It's frightening to think that this is the "advice" they are dishing out and that many people could well be on the roads illegally and unsafely. 

If only the manufacturer can downplate does this mean I will have to take my trailer to Ifor head office?


----------



## ROG (7 January 2013)

silverstar2013 said:



			If only the manufacturer can downplate does this mean I will have to take my trailer to Ifor head office?
		
Click to expand...

NO - LOL

You need to contact the manufacturer who will then put you onto their local dealer for the new plate to be fitted at little or no cost


----------



## silverstar2013 (7 January 2013)

ROG said:



			You need to contact the manufacturer who will then put you onto their local dealer for the new plate to be fitted at little or no cost
		
Click to expand...

That'll be the dealer who told me that "because laws have changed you don't really need to downplate now"


----------



## ROG (7 January 2013)

silverstar2013 said:



			That'll be the dealer who told me that "because laws have changed you don't really need to downplate now" 

Click to expand...

Does not matter - the dealer will be receiving instructions from the manufacturer to do it

I wish you named the dealer because I would like to have a chat with them !!


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## silverstar2013 (7 January 2013)

I don't want to name the dealers on a public website, however I will speak to them again when I take my trailer in and depending on the response I may well name them at that point. 

Thanks so much for the advice ROG, if I can't get my hands on that Freelander I will be back for advice and calculations on another alternative vehicle if you don't mind


----------



## edgedem (11 January 2013)

Daihatsu fourtrak (lwb) 

Gross vehicle weight 2510 kg
Max load weight 730 kg
Max towing weight Braked 3500 kg
Min kerb weight 1780 kg

towing a bahill trailer of 700KG bahill trailer 


So will this work on a B lisence with my one horse of 450kg?

sorry YET again to ask!


----------



## ROG (11 January 2013)

edgedem said:



			Daihatsu fourtrak (lwb) 

Gross vehicle weight 2510 kg
Max load weight 730 kg
Max towing weight Braked 3500 kg
Min kerb weight 1780 kg

towing a bahill trailer of 700KG bahill trailer 


So will this work on a B lisence with my one horse of 450kg?

sorry YET again to ask!
		
Click to expand...

The maximum trailer plated MAM for that vehicle on a B licence is 990 kgs because 2510+990=3500

As your trailer seems to weight 700 kgs unladen then if it was plated to a max of 990 it could only carry 290 kgs

you keep mentioning the 700 unladen weight of the trailer but the important figure is the plated MAM weight - Without the plated MAM weight of the trailer I cannot give you definitive answers but only give you possible senarios


----------



## edgedem (11 January 2013)

Hi I say 700 cus there is no mam plate!! Only a serial number. Looked everywhere


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## ROG (11 January 2013)

edgedem said:



			Hi I say 700 cus there is no mam plate!! Only a serial number. Looked everywhere 

Click to expand...

Without a MAM plate the total of all the tyre load ratings are used and that will be well above what you are allowed for B licence towing

As Bahill are not in business any more then there is no chance of having it downplated and even if there was it would not be of any use to you with that vehicle


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## ROG (11 January 2013)

What you need is a vehicle with a GVW of not more than about 2200 kgs so you can have a trailer of about 1300 MAM and a max of 800 unladen so it can carry a 500 horse


----------



## NeverSayNever (13 January 2013)

ROG I have a question if you dont mind, it isnt horse trailer related though.

I am about to purchase a new caravan to tow with my toyota hilux and I have B+E so all good there. However the one I like is 7.2M long. That is the 'shipping length' but I cant see any other length in the spec, other than internal. 

Ive read this on www.gov.uk 
_The maximum trailer width for any towing vehicle is 2.55 metres. The maximum length is 7 metres for a trailer towed by a vehicle weighing up to 3.5 tonnes (3,500 kilograms)._

furthermore it seems to be what is in my vehicle insurance policy doc.

How can this be when so many caravans are over 7m 

Help please! Thankie!


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## ROG (13 January 2013)

http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/law/dimensions.aspx

Maximum Trailer Dimensions

Towing vehicle up to 3500kg GVW

Length (excluding the coupling and drawbar): 7.0m


----------



## NeverSayNever (13 January 2013)

ROG said:



http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/law/dimensions.aspx

Maximum Trailer Dimensions

Towing vehicle up to 3500kg GVW

Length (excluding the coupling and drawbar): 7.0m
		
Click to expand...

thank you! this seems to cause confusion with insurance companies from what ive found when googling. Do you have any advice? say I buy this caravan and then ring my insurance company, they are going to ask what the length is and on the spec it says 7.2m, there is no official length without the coupling


----------



## ROG (13 January 2013)

NeverSayNever said:



			thank you! this seems to cause confusion with insurance companies from what ive found when googling. Do you have any advice? say I buy this caravan and then ring my insurance company, they are going to ask what the length is and on the spec it says 7.2m, there is no official length without the coupling

Click to expand...

Tell insurer that is with coupling and then tell them what it is without it = simple

Invite them to come and measure it if they do not believe you or get them to call the manufacturer


----------



## EmmaB (17 January 2013)

Hi ROG, I only have my B licence but was wondering if I could find a combination to legally tow 1 horse. I've looked for a single trailer but they are just too expensive and hard to find! So I'm trying to figure out something with a double trailer downplated?

This is for a diesel 2.0 Freelander and an Ifor HB505

GVW of the towing vehicle  2080kg
GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 1800kg
Plated MAM of the trailer 2340kg
Unladen/empty weight of the trailer 905kg

So what weight would I need to get it downplated to? 1420kg? Would that then leave me just over 500kg for my horse?


----------



## ROG (17 January 2013)

EmmaB said:



			Hi ROG, I only have my B licence but was wondering if I could find a combination to legally tow 1 horse. I've looked for a single trailer but they are just too expensive and hard to find! So I'm trying to figure out something with a double trailer downplated?

This is for a diesel 2.0 Freelander and an Ifor HB505

GVW of the towing vehicle  2080kg
towing capacity of the towing vehicle 1800kg
Plated MAM of the trailer 2340kg
Unladen/empty weight of the trailer 905kg

So what weight would I need to get it downplated to? 1420kg? Would that then leave me just over 500kg for my horse?
		
Click to expand...

Providing the Freelander kerbweight is at least 1420 (should be easily) then your calculations are all correct


----------



## EmmaB (17 January 2013)

Thankyou so much! Thank god Fi that, these weights were sending me insane


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## silverstar2013 (20 January 2013)

Hello, it's me again  
I've scrapped the Freelander idea and I'm now looking at Pajeros.

Would I be legal with:

* B licence (passed driving test 1999)
* Ifor Williams 401
* Vehicle is either a 
   Pajero 1994 swb 2.8 diesel
   OR
   Pajero 1995 lwb 2.8 diesel

Any help much appreciated, thank you


----------



## ROG (20 January 2013)

silverstar2013 said:



			Hello, it's me again  
I've scrapped the Freelander idea and I'm now looking at Pajeros.

Would I be legal with:

* B licence (passed driving test 1999)
* Ifor Williams 401
* Vehicle is either a 
   Pajero 1994 swb 2.8 diesel
   OR
   Pajero 1995 lwb 2.8 diesel

Any help much appreciated, thank you 

Click to expand...

Please supply these weights for the pajero
GVW
Kerb
Towing capacity

I am unable to find these weights on the internet


----------



## chestnuttyy (21 January 2013)

Hi Rog, could I just double check this is legal...

Trailer: IW HB401 
Car: Honda CR-V

GVW (KG): 2140
Towing weight ( braked): 1500	
Min kerb: 1631

Trailer currently plated at 1420KG but can downplate a bit further as horse is only 480-500KG.

Thanks


----------



## ROG (22 January 2013)

chestnuttyy said:



			Hi Rog, could I just double check this is legal...

Trailer: IW HB401 
Car: Honda CR-V

GVW (KG): 2140
Towing weight ( braked): 1500	
Min kerb: 1631

Trailer currently plated at 1420KG but can downplate a bit further as horse is only 480-500KG.

Thanks 

Click to expand...

For B licence towing the max trailer MAM needs to be no more than 1360 kgs

1360+2140=3500 which is the max for B towing
1360 is not more than 1631 so thats ok


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## chestnuttyy (22 January 2013)

Fab, trailer weighs 770kg unladen so that gives me about 860kg o horse which is more than enough!!


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## ROG (22 January 2013)

chestnuttyy said:



			Fab, trailer weighs 770kg unladen so that gives me about 860kg o horse which is more than enough!!
		
Click to expand...

1360-770=590 for load/horse in the trailer not 860


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## chestnuttyy (22 January 2013)

ROG said:



			1360-770=590 for load/horse in the trailer not 860
		
Click to expand...

Oops! Well horse is 480KG so should be ok as everything else goes in the car anyway


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## Beetlebug (27 January 2013)

Hi Rog,

I am looking to buy a Freelander 2.0 TD4 S.

Weight of car - 2080kg
Max towing weight (braked) -1800
Min kerb weight -1640

Trailer is a IFor Williams 505 

Horse 15.3hh 550kg

Driver - my dad he has a B licence 

Could you let me know if this will be ok? Only wanting to do local shows so don't want to fork out for a beefy 4x4 if I don't have to...

Thank you


----------



## ROG (27 January 2013)

Beetlebug said:



			Hi Rog,

I am looking to buy a Freelander 2.0 TD4 S.

Weight of car - 2080kg
Max towing weight (braked) -1800
Min kerb weight -1640

Trailer is a IFor Williams 505 

Horse 15.3hh 550kg

Driver - my dad he has a B licence 

Could you let me know if this will be ok? Only wanting to do local shows so don't want to fork out for a beefy 4x4 if I don't have to...

Thank you
		
Click to expand...

HB505 max gross weight is 2340KG, unladen weight is 905KG
The maximum trailer plated MAM on a B licence where the vehicle has a GVW of 2080 will be 1420 so the trailer will need to be down plated to a max of 1420 and that can be done by contacting Ifor williams - the cost will be little or nothing but will need taking to an Ifor dealer to be changed

At 1420 kgs plated MAM and a 905 unladen weight the trailer will be able to be loaded with a max of 515 kgs which is not enough for your 550 kgs horse  etc

*You have the right vehicle but not the right trailer for B licence towing*

Something with a lower unladen weight is needed - perhaps an ifor HB401 or 403 which has an unladen weight of about 770 kgs which would leave 650 kgs for the horse/load


----------



## The Amber Gambler (28 January 2013)

Hi Rog

Could you assist to confirm whether my car (BMW 320) is *legal* and *safe* to tow with:-

I passed my test after 1997 but took my trailer test in 2010 so my licence is BE.
Unladen weight of car = 1490
GVW of car = 1970
Braked towing weight = 1600
Ifor Williams HB505 trailer

We have a Toyota Landcruiser which is the main towing car but the odd time the hubby has the car and we was thinking to use the car if it is ok, personally I am not keen?! 

Thanks


----------



## ROG (28 January 2013)

The Amber Gambler said:



			Hi Rog

Could you assist to confirm whether my car (BMW 320) is *legal* and *safe* to tow with:-

I passed my test after 1997 but took my trailer test in 2010 so my licence is BE.
Unladen weight of car = 1490
GVW of car = 1970
Braked towing weight = 1600
Ifor Williams HB505 trailer

We have a Toyota Landcruiser which is the main towing car but the odd time the hubby has the car and we was thinking to use the car if it is ok, personally I am not keen?! 

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

The 505 has an unladen weight of about 900 kgs so with a horse/load of under 700 kgs it should be fine

The only thing I would point out is to watch the type of road surfaces it is being used on - I doubt if it will be very good away from good solid road surfaces

It is bound to feel and react differently than the landcruiser


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## The Amber Gambler (28 January 2013)

Thanks Rog, I will definitely be sticking with tarmac if we use it!!


----------



## ROG (28 January 2013)

The Amber Gambler said:



			Thanks Rog, I will definitely be sticking with tarmac if we use it!! 

Click to expand...

One more thing before somebody jumps into a black hole ....

The fact that the HB505 has a plated MAM of 2340 (appx) and the vehicle towing capacity is lower at 1600 makes no difference to any legalities


----------



## chestnuttyy (28 January 2013)

Rog... need your wisdom again please!

Toyota Rav 4 to pull an Ifor 401 (unladen approx 770 KG, currently plated at 1420KG) - how much weight would I have to play with on a B Licence??

Gross vehicle weight 1930 kg  
Max towing weight (braked) 1500 kg 
Minimum kerb weight 1442 kg 

Would this be a safe option to tow my 401 with?

Thanks


----------



## ROG (28 January 2013)

chestnuttyy said:



			Rog... need your wisdom again please!

Toyota Rav 4 to pull an Ifor 401 (unladen approx 770 KG, currently plated at 1420KG) - how much weight would I have to play with on a B Licence??

Gross vehicle weight 1930 kg  
Max towing weight (braked) 1500 kg 
Minimum kerb weight 1442 kg 

Would this be a safe option to tow my 401 with?

Thanks 

Click to expand...

Just legal on a B licence by 22 kgs !! (1442-1420=22)
Max Horse/load for trailer = 650 kgs


----------



## chestnuttyy (28 January 2013)

Awesome, thought I'd worked it out right! Could always replate the trailer again to nab those extra 22kg! Horse is less than 500kg so 150kg for tack plus me is more than enough and if OH comes along then I'll stick L plates on or make him drive!

Any idea what the RAV 4 is like for towing? I'm looking around the 2005 sort of age...


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## ROG (29 January 2013)

chestnuttyy said:



			Awesome, thought I'd worked it out right! Could always replate the trailer again to nab those extra 22kg! Horse is less than 500kg so 150kg for tack plus me is more than enough and if OH comes along then I'll stick L plates on or make him drive!

Any idea what the RAV 4 is like for towing? I'm looking around the 2005 sort of age...
		
Click to expand...

No idea as I have only towed an empty box trailer with a 4x4

Why the L plates when OH is with you ?

OH weight goes onto the car GVW so unless you go into the trailer with the horse when he comes along and increase the trailer weight then I am confused !!!!!!

The vehicle has a weight limit and the trailer has a weight limit


----------



## Hannahharper1982 (29 January 2013)

Hi ROG

Could I ask for advice?
I have a freelander TD4 2.0 automatic (53plate) I believe it's towing capacity to be 1800kg, and kerb weight 1615kg. I have been offered an old rice Europa trailer, unladen weight 980kg max gross weight 2300kg. My horse weighs in about 520kg - I only have a B license at the moment - would this combination be legal on a B license or would B + E be required? Thanks


----------



## ROG (29 January 2013)

Hannahharper1982 said:



			Hi ROG

Could I ask for advice?
I have a freelander TD4 2.0 automatic (53plate) I believe it's towing capacity to be 1800kg, and kerb weight 1615kg. I have been offered an old rice Europa trailer, unladen weight 980kg max gross weight 2300kg. My horse weighs in about 520kg - I only have a B license at the moment - would this combination be legal on a B license or would B + E be required? Thanks
		
Click to expand...

B+E required or be under B+E provisional rules

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


----------



## Hannahharper1982 (29 January 2013)

Thanks for your prompt reply - would I be legal on a B license with a different trailer - what should I ideally be looking for weight wise regarding trailer?


----------



## ROG (29 January 2013)

Hannahharper1982 said:



			Thanks for your prompt reply - would I be legal on a B license with a different trailer - what should I ideally be looking for weight wise regarding trailer?
		
Click to expand...

IS THIS YOUR CAR ?
KERB 1619
GVW 2080
TOWING 1800

With something like a HB401 or 403 then it can be perfectly ok on a B licence but will need to be down plated to a mximum of 1420 MAM
As they weight 770 unladen then that leaves 650 kgs for the horse/load

Other trailers are available but I used the common Ifor as an example


----------



## ROG (29 January 2013)

Billabongchick said:



			Sorry to hijack slightly but I have a VW Passat estate which I think I would prefer to save for best so to speak and not kill it off by towing but if there is a good solution with lightweight trailer then would consider using it but I expect it is too light. 

I have looked on my licence and I have B, B1, f, k, p and am unclear on what I can drive in the way of a box with a 15.2hh lightweight ex racer on board? 

Any advice would be gratefully received if anyone is able to help? It seems to be a minefield and like OP I have previously relied on parents and would like to be able to get out and about without spending a fortune or having to get OH to tow as he is old enough to have licence!
		
Click to expand...

I need to know what model of passat it is as there are loads of them
WHICH ONE OF THESE IS IT ?


----------



## Billabongchick (29 January 2013)

Hi ROG, Thanks, I can't find it in that list - It is a 1.9 TDI S 2002 Model?


----------



## ROG (29 January 2013)

Billabongchick said:



			Hi ROG, Thanks, I can't find it in that list - It is a 1.9 TDI S 2002 Model?
		
Click to expand...

Volkswagen Passat 1.9 S TDI 100 5DR 2002
KERB 1625
GVW 2030
TOWING 1400
MAX trailer plated MAM = 1470 but the max actual towing weight is 1400

Using the IFOR HB401/403 as an example again which has a 770 unladen/empty weight

Down plate the trailer from 1600 to between 1400 to 1470 by contacting the manufacturer who will arrange it with a local dealer for little or no cost

1400 minus 770 leaves 630 max for the horse/load

This would then be legal for B licence towing

Using an estate instead of a 4X4 does have some restrictions such as not going onto non hard surfaces and it will feel different when towing


----------



## chestnutx (29 January 2013)

Hi 
I have a very old Richardson trailer, it is not plated. The tyres have 750kg on them and it has 4 tyres so I assume total weight is 3t? Now my question is if the police stopped me would they go on the weight according to tyres or make me go on a weighbridge? My towing vehicle can tow a max of 1.8t so think we might not be legal? So far we've only towed hay but I want to get out practicing so I can take my test and drive solo eventually! 

Thanks so much rog.


----------



## ROG (29 January 2013)

chestnutx said:



			Hi 
I have a very old Richardson trailer, it is not plated. The tyres have 750kg on them and it has 4 tyres so I assume total weight is 3t? Now my question is if the police stopped me would they go on the weight according to tyres or make me go on a weighbridge? My towing vehicle can tow a max of 1.8t so think we might not be legal? So far we've only towed hay but I want to get out practicing so I can take my test and drive solo eventually! 

Thanks so much rog.
		
Click to expand...

It will go on the total of the tyre ratings so you are correct with 3 tonnes

The authorities will take your trailer as being 3000 kgs MAM

What the towing capacity is and what the MAM is are two entirely different issues

There is no law or rule which states the MAM cannot be higher than the towing capacity

There is no law regarding the towing capacity - seriously


----------



## chestnuttyy (29 January 2013)

ROG said:



			No idea as I have only towed an empty box trailer with a 4x4

Why the L plates when OH is with you ?

OH weight goes onto the car GVW so unless you go into the trailer with the horse when he comes along and increase the trailer weight then I am confused !!!!!!

The vehicle has a weight limit and the trailer has a weight limit
		
Click to expand...

Lol I was thinking overall weight (maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree)...

Trailer (770KG) plus horse (500KG) = 1270

GVW = 1925

1925 + 1270 = 3195

3500KG (max weight for B licence) - 3195 = 305KG...

= a max load to go in the car of 305 KG???  

... actually even if I am barking up the wrong tree with the overall weight thing... 305KG is loads!!! lol


----------



## ROG (29 January 2013)

chestnuttyy said:



			Lol I was thinking overall weight (maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree)...

Trailer (770KG) plus horse (500KG) = 1270

GVW = 1925

1925 + 1270 = 3195

3500KG (max weight for B licence) - 3195 = 305KG...

= a max load to go in the car of 305 KG???  

... actually even if I am barking up the wrong tree with the overall weight thing... 305KG is loads!!! lol
		
Click to expand...

Lets say a car is 1500 unladen/kerbweight and 2000 GVW - that means 500 can go in the car

Lets say the trailer is 800 unladen/empty and has a MAM of 1400 - that means 600 can go in the trailer

As long as the GTW for the vehicle is 3400 or over then all can be fully loaded
GTW is usually, but not always, the GVW plus the towing capacity

The GTW is the top number on the plate in the vehicle
The GVW is the second number 
The two lower numbers are max axle weights with the front listed first


----------



## chestnutx (29 January 2013)

Thanks rog. So if I tow my pony and the trailer and him weigh 1.7t or less then I am legal regardless of the fact the mam of trailer is 3t? 

Sorry just double checking! 

Have you any idea how much these really old trailers are? I.m sure they are a lot heavier than current trailers!


----------



## chestnuttyy (29 January 2013)

ROG said:



			Lets say a car is 1500 unladen/kerbweight and 2000 GVW - that means 500 can go in the car

Lets say the trailer is 800 unladen/empty and has a MAM of 1400 - that means 600 can go in the trailer

As long as the GTW for the vehicle is 3400 or over then all can be fully loaded
GTW is usually, but not always, the GVW plus the towing capacity

The GTW is the top number on the plate in the vehicle
The GVW is the second number 
The two lower numbers are max axle weights with the front listed first
		
Click to expand...

Well, I did not know that!!

So my total weight - car, trailer everything IS allowed to be over 3.5 tonnes providing the GVW of the car + trailer MAM is 3.5 tonnes or less? (obvs taking kerb weight into consideration too)


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## ROG (30 January 2013)

chestnutx said:



			Thanks rog. So if I tow my pony and the trailer and him weigh 1.7t or less then I am legal regardless of the fact the mam of trailer is 3t? 

Sorry just double checking! 

Have you any idea how much these really old trailers are? I.m sure they are a lot heavier than current trailers!
		
Click to expand...

You could alway take it to a weighbridge empty to find out the true unladen weight

With a B+E licence then having a trailer/load of 1.7 with a towing capacity of 1.8 should be no problem


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## ROG (30 January 2013)

chestnuttyy said:



			Well, I did not know that!!

So my total weight - car, trailer everything IS allowed to be over 3.5 tonnes providing the GVW of the car + trailer MAM is 3.5 tonnes or less? (obvs taking kerb weight into consideration too)
		
Click to expand...

You cannot have a total weight over 3500 when the totals of the GVW+MAM are 3500 as that would be illegal
The same applies if the GTW is say 4000

Each part has a weight limit and there is also a total weight limit gor everything 
None of those parts must have their max weight exceeded

Vehicle GVW 2000
Vehicle GTW 4000
Trailer MAM 1500
As none of those above weights must be exceeded then the max actual weight cannot be more than 3500 (2000+1500=3500)

On a B+E licence this can be the case
Vehicle GVW 2000
Vehicle GTW 4000
Trailer MAM 3500
Although th GVW+MAM add up to 5500 the GTW of 4000 will kick in first so if the vehicle is loaded to 1700 then the trailer max will be 2300 (1700+2300=4000)


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## Billabongchick (30 January 2013)

Thank you for the information! Much appreciated.


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## chestnuttyy (30 January 2013)

So I was right in the first instance?! If my gvw is say 2000, trailer weight is 1300 with horse in then I would have 200kg left for people, tack, water etc?

All above weights are examples btw!


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## chestnuttyy (30 January 2013)

Above post is for B Licence


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## ROG (30 January 2013)

chestnuttyy said:



			So I was right in the first instance?! If my gvw is say 2000, trailer weight is 1300 with horse in then I would have 200kg left for people, tack, water etc?

All above weights are examples btw!
		
Click to expand...

If the car is 2000 GVW and has a kerbweight of 1500 then you can put 500 into the car

If the trailer is 1500 MAM and 800 unladen then 700 can go into the trailer

If the GTW on the vehicle plate is listed below 3500 then both cannot be loaded to max capacity

Lets say the GTW is listed as 3300 on the car weight plate then you could have any of these examples ... actual weights given not GVW/MAM weights but GVW/MAM weights must not be exceeded
Car 1800 + trailer 1500
car 2000 + trailer 1300
car 1900 + trailer 1400
etc etc


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## chestnutx (30 January 2013)

ROG said:



			You could alway take it to a weighbridge empty to find out the true unladen weight

With a B+E licence then having a trailer/load of 1.7 with a towing capacity of 1.8 should be no problem
		
Click to expand...

Thank you! You are a towing superstar!


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## chestnuttyy (30 January 2013)

ROG said:



			If the car is 2000 GVW and has a kerbweight of 1500 then you can put 500 into the car

If the trailer is 1500 MAM and 800 unladen then 700 can go into the trailer

If the GTW on the vehicle plate is listed below 3500 then both cannot be loaded to max capacity

Lets say the GTW is listed as 3300 on the car weight plate then you could have any of these examples ... actual weights given not GVW/MAM weights but GVW/MAM weights must not be exceeded
Car 1800 + trailer 1500
car 2000 + trailer 1300
car 1900 + trailer 1400
etc etc
		
Click to expand...

OK.. so is the kerbweight the unladen weight of the car and the GVW is the max the car is allowed to weigh with a load in it? 

So GVW-Kerbweight = amount you can put in the car?


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## ROG (30 January 2013)

chestnuttyy said:



			OK.. so is the kerbweight the unladen weight of the car and the GVW is the max the car is allowed to weight with a load in it? So GVW-Kerbweight = amount you can put in the car?
		
Click to expand...

YOU GOT IT


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## chestnuttyy (30 January 2013)

ROG said:



			YOU GOT IT 

Click to expand...

Ohhhhh I thought GVW was the actual weight of the car!

Light bulb moment!!

Oh so actually... *Scampers off to review car hunt*

If I post some workings out... can you check them for me?! I don't trust myself now


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## ROG (30 January 2013)

chestnuttyy said:



			If I post some workings out... can you check them for me?!
		
Click to expand...

That is why I am here 

Just remind me each time what licence you will be towing with (B or B+E)

What I need is this....

Licence B or B+E 

Vehicle
Kerbweight
GVW
towing capacity

Trailer
unladen
MAM


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## chestnuttyy (30 January 2013)

OK soooo...

B LICENCE 

Honda CRV:

GVW = 2140
Kerbweight = 1631
Towing weight = 1500
Trailer = 770 unladen
Horse (load) = 500KG

SOOOO

Loaded Trailer weight = 1300 KG (rounded up)

Kerbweight + loaded trailer weight = 2931

3500 - 2931 = max load of 569KG in the car?!

do i get extra points for my working out?! lol

sorry i need to go by trailer MAM because of my licence don't i? so my trailer is plated at 1420KG... so I just minus 120KG off that total...


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## ROG (30 January 2013)

chestnuttyy said:



			OK soooo...

B LICENCE 

Honda CRV:

GVW = 2140
Kerbweight = 1631
Towing weight = 1500
Trailer = 770 unladen
Horse (load) = 500KG

SOOOO

Loaded Trailer weight = 1300 KG (rounded up)

Kerbweight + loaded trailer weight = 2931

3500 - 2931 = max load of 569KG in the car?!

do i get extra points for my working out?! lol

sorry i need to go by trailer MAM because of my licence don't i? so my trailer is plated at 1420KG... so I just minus 120KG off that total...
		
Click to expand...

1420-1300=120 spare in trailer

*2140+1420=3560 = OOPS 60 kgs over legal B towing limit*
1420 is not more than 1631 so thats ok


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## chestnuttyy (30 January 2013)

ROG said:



			1420-1300=120 spare in trailer

*2140+1420=3560 = OOPS 60 kgs over legal B towing limit*
1420 is not more than 1631 so thats ok
		
Click to expand...

OK so if I knocked my trailer plated weight (MAM) down by 60KG, I can put 509 KG in the car?!


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## ROG (30 January 2013)

chestnuttyy said:



			OK so if I knocked my trailer plated weight (MAM) down by 60KG, I can put 509 KG in the car?!
		
Click to expand...

You got the 509 right 

And yes, reduce the trailer plated MAM by 60 from 1420 to 1360 and that will then be ok

1360-770=590 for the horse/load


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## chestnuttyy (30 January 2013)

ROG said:



			You got the 509 right 

And yes, reduce the trailer plated MAM by 60 from 1420 to 1360 and that will then be ok

1360-770=590 for the horse/load
		
Click to expand...

OK so when I'm working this out I need to first do:

GVW + Trailer MAM 

See if that = 3500 or less. If it doesn't work out what alteration I would have to make to my plate & see if it's sensible. In this case 590KG is more than enough.

THEN do GVW - Kerb weight = amount I can shove in the car in the form of people/ water/ tack/ general stuff.

I hope I've got it this time  never was very good at maths!!


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## ROG (30 January 2013)

chestnuttyy said:



			OK so when I'm working this out I need to first do:

GVW + Trailer MAM 

See if that = 3500 or less. If it doesn't work out what alteration I would have to make to my plate & see if it's sensible. In this case 590KG is more than enough.

THEN do GVW - Kerb weight = amount I can shove in the car in the form of people/ water/ tack/ general stuff.

I hope I've got it this time  never was very good at maths!!
		
Click to expand...

GVW+trailer MAM must not add up to more than 3500
Trailer MAM must not be more than kerbweight
Those are the two main rules for B licence towing

GVW-kerbweight=amount you can put in car
Trailer MAM-trailer unladen weight = amount that can go in trailer


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## chestnuttyy (30 January 2013)

ROG said:



			GVW+trailer MAM must not add up to more than 3500
Trailer MAM must not be more than kerbweight
Those are the two main rules for B licence towing

GVW-kerbweight=amount you can put in car
Trailer MAM-trailer unladen weight = amount that can go in trailer
		
Click to expand...

Got it! Thanks ever so much 

So i CAN go for a Honda CR-V! Shame they're so hard to find!


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## Beetlebug (1 February 2013)

Quote:

HB505 max gross weight is 2340KG, unladen weight is 905KG
The maximum trailer plated MAM on a B licence where the vehicle has a GVW of 2080 will be 1420 so the trailer will need to be down plated to a max of 1420 and that can be done by contacting Ifor williams - the cost will be little or nothing but will need taking to an Ifor dealer to be changed

At 1420 kgs plated MAM and a 905 unladen weight the trailer will be able to be loaded with a max of 515 kgs which is not enough for your 550 kgs horse etc

You have the right vehicle but not the right trailer for B licence towing

Something with a lower unladen weight is needed - perhaps an ifor HB401 or 403 which has an unladen weight of about 770 kgs which would leave 650 kgs for the horse/load
Last edited by ROG; 27-01-13 at 12:35 PM..

Hi Rog as I am hiring a trailer I will have to change the car which car do you recommend?? Thanks


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## Beetlebug (1 February 2013)

Sorry using my phone and you cannot quote what some has wrote 

Due to me hiring a trailer (505) and my horse been 520kg (got him weighed) and my dad driving on a B licence. What car can I get to tow so it's legal???

Thanks


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## ROG (1 February 2013)

Beetlebug said:



			Sorry using my phone and you cannot quote what some has wrote 

Due to me hiring a trailer (505) and my horse been 520kg (got him weighed) and my dad driving on a B licence. What car can I get to tow so it's legal???

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Hired trailers will not have the MAM downplated so it is impossible to use them on a B licence


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## Beetlebug (1 February 2013)

Thanks Rog if you have a licence before 1997 would that be suitable as per the above? My dads licence is ore 1997 sorry I got it wrong it's only when I have researched it says on the gov website that they can drive a vehicle and trailer combo up to 8.25 tones ... 

I might just take my B&E test at this rate


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## ROG (1 February 2013)

Beetlebug said:



			Thanks Rog if you have a licence before 1997 would that be suitable as per the above? My dads licence is before 1997 sorry I got it wrong it's only when I have researched it says on the gov website that they can drive a vehicle and trailer combo up to 8.25 tones ... 

I might just take my B&E test at this rate 

Click to expand...

No problems at all on a B+E licence for what you want to do 

Techniically he can drive a B+E with no upper weight restriction

The 8.250 max is for the pre 1997 LGV C1+E which he has


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## Beetlebug (1 February 2013)

ROG said:



			No problems at all on a B+E licence for what you want to do 

Techniically he can drive a B+E with no upper weight restriction

The 8.250 max is for the pre 1997 LGV C1+E which he has
		
Click to expand...

Thank you so much this Tread has been the most helpful tread on here I now can make sure I tow my horse legally and safely so thanks for your help


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## ROG (1 February 2013)

Beetlebug said:



			Thank you so much this Tread has been the most helpful tread on here I now can make sure I tow my horse legally and safely so thanks for your help
		
Click to expand...

Using a B+E licence the one thing to really abide by is the manufacturers recommended towing capacity which is the actual weight that they have designed their vehicle to tow 

If the towing capacity is 1500 and the weight of the empty trailer is 900 loaded with a horse of 600 then that is ok providing the plated trailer MAM is at least 1500 of course !!


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## orionstar (1 February 2013)

I've got a Mitsubishi l200, and a horse thats 17.2hh around 720kg at last check, I'm looking to buy a 510 or 511 (she's travelled in a 510 a few times no problem), but I'm worried that I'll be over weight if I agree to take another horse to a show, now I have an ancient licence, so I'm not restricted that way, but dont want to struggle to tow, and I'm not one for overdoing it with horses on board, but unsure about the maximum tow weights as everyone has their own advice!


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## ROG (1 February 2013)

orionstar said:



			I've got a Mitsubishi l200, and a horse thats 17.2hh around 720kg at last check, I'm looking to buy a 510 or 511 (she's travelled in a 510 a few times no problem), but I'm worried that I'll be over weight if I agree to take another horse to a show, now I have an ancient licence, so I'm not restricted that way, but dont want to struggle to tow, and I'm not one for overdoing it with horses on board, but unsure about the maximum tow weights as everyone has their own advice!
		
Click to expand...

The L200 has at least a 2700 kgs towing capacity but can be uprated for more apparently !!

A HB510/511 is about 900 kgs empty
Your horse is 720 kgs

That is 1620 being towed with a 2700 capacity and at least a 1000 to spare


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## D66 (3 February 2013)

Advice needed please ROG.

What size vehicle will I need to take one large horse say 500kg but still growing, a four wheeled carriage (180kg) and harness etc with overnight living accommodation.  Oh says we can have (a cheap) lorry, but will I need an HGV licence or is there a way of doing it without.


One option is to have horse and living on the lorry and tow a trailer with the carriage on it,  How does this affect the weights?

Test passed in 1976!  I'm a confident driver inc towing and reversing, etc.


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## ROG (4 February 2013)

digger66 said:



			Advice needed please ROG.

What size vehicle will I need to take one large horse say 500kg but still growing, a four wheeled carriage (180kg) and harness etc with overnight living accommodation.  Oh says we can have (a cheap) lorry, but will I need an HGV licence or is there a way of doing it without.


One option is to have horse and living on the lorry and tow a trailer with the carriage on it,  How does this affect the weights?

Test passed in 1976!  I'm a confident driver inc towing and reversing, etc.
		
Click to expand...

You have a few choices because you have B+E and LGV C1 ( up to 7.5 tonnes) so perhaps you might be better to ask on the tack room forum for which is best


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## manilla94 (4 February 2013)

Help! I would like to tow with Honda CRV, 1 horse weighing 540 kg in an ifor Williams 505. Can I do that on a b licence? Thanks


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## ROG (4 February 2013)

manilla94 said:



			Help! I would like to tow with Honda CRV, 1 horse weighing 540 kg in an ifor Williams 505. Can I do that on a b licence? Thanks
		
Click to expand...

WELCOME 

Done a CRV before - HERE

As you can see, I need certain info to give a definitive answer but your trailer is heavier empty than the one in that link so if the figures are about the same for the CRV then with a trailer that weighs about 900 kgs empty (HB505) and has a downplated max MAM of 1360 it will leave only 460 for the load/horse

Using a lighter trailer like the HB401/403 would leave 590 for the load /horse

Please supply exact model of CRV or better still the weight figures from the plate in the vehicle and from the info on the V5 registered keepers documment - ta


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## bex1984 (5 February 2013)

Hi ROG, 

Is it possible to down plate a trailer if the manufacturer is no longer in business?? 

Thanks


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## ROG (5 February 2013)

bex1984 said:



			Hi ROG, 

Is it possible to down plate a trailer if the manufacturer is no longer in business?? 

Thanks 

Click to expand...

NO ... that was easy 

Without any plate on it the total of the load ratings on the tyres will be deemed the MAM up to a maximum of 3500 kgs


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## bex1984 (5 February 2013)

Thanks ROG, I thought as much....it's a nightmare trying to find a lightweight trailer!!


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## ROG (5 February 2013)

bex1984 said:



			Thanks ROG, I thought as much....it's a nightmare trying to find a lightweight trailer!!
		
Click to expand...

I know you are looking for a trailer with a max unladen weight of 850 kgs so perhaps it could be a double - might be worth searching the web for manufacturers of doubles and then click on the dimensions to see the unladen weights


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## bex1984 (5 February 2013)

My beloved has his heart set on a vw passat, which is unfortunately really heavy and means I have to find a really light trailer! I think I might have to persuade him that a slightly lighter car is a good plan!


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## ROG (5 February 2013)

bex1984 said:



			My beloved has his heart set on a vw passat, which is unfortunately really heavy and means I have to find a really light trailer! I think I might have to persuade him that a slightly lighter car is a good plan!
		
Click to expand...

IS IT THIS PASSAT ?
If yes, then with 1470 MAM for the trailer then a 900 unladen weight which is that of the HB505 double trailer it would leave 570 for the load/horse


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## bex1984 (5 February 2013)

ROG said:



IS IT THIS PASSAT ?
If yes, then with 1470 MAM for the trailer then a 900 unladen weight which is that of the HB505 double trailer it would leave 570 for the load/horse
		
Click to expand...

Well, we were looking at the later passats, the 2l TDI....http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-figures/volkswagen/passat/estate-2005/32563/

OH likes the 138bhp!! And I like the fact that is can tow 1800kg, as I'd feel safer with something as beefy as possible. Doesn't say the GVW on that link though but I think it's between 2100 and 2200kg??

The one mentioned in your link is the older version which is a 1.9 TDI I think http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-figures/volkswagen/passat/estate-2000/20412/??


Basically we're trying to marry up a decent commuting car for OH - commuting 16 miles each way to work and back, with something that will safely tow my beloved pony and not feel like it's struggling if that makes sense. And is safe to travel our baby about in and has space for baby, pram, dog and tack!

It would be great if we could find something that would tow a 505 as there's loads of them about!


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## ROG (5 February 2013)

bex1984 said:



			Well, we were looking at the later passats, the 2l TDI....http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-figures/volkswagen/passat/estate-2005/32563/

OH likes the 138bhp!! And I like the fact that is can tow 1800kg, as I'd feel safer with something as beefy as possible. Doesn't say the GVW on that link though but I think it's between 2100 and 2200kg??

The one mentioned in your link is the older version which is a 1.9 TDI I think http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-figures/volkswagen/passat/estate-2000/20412/??


Basically we're trying to marry up a decent commuting car for OH - commuting 16 miles each way to work and back, with something that will safely tow my beloved pony and not feel like it's struggling if that makes sense. And is safe to travel our baby about in and has space for baby, pram, dog and tack!

It would be great if we could find something that would tow a 505 as there's loads of them about!
		
Click to expand...

2180 GVW for the model your OH is looking at so that leaves 1320 max for the trailer MAM
1320 has to accomodate the trailer unladen weight plus the weight of anything you need to put in it


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## bex1984 (6 February 2013)

Is there an easy place to find GVWs online? They seem to be hard to find.


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## ROG (6 February 2013)

bex1984 said:



			Is there an easy place to find GVWs online? They seem to be hard to find.
		
Click to expand...

There is not a database of them so they have to be searched for individually such as .....

2008 ford mondeo estate 2.0 kgs gvw kerb towing


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## luckilotti (6 February 2013)

hi, 

OK, picked up trailer today so now i need to know all the other bits and bobs!

If driving 'provisionally' - do i need green or red L plates on (i assumed red but someone said it would be green as if i went on the motorway etc with red ones on loads of people would be calling the police etc thinking i was a total learner....) - i also assume then need to be at the front and rear of the car/trailer combo. 

i havent had a full on look but where could i find a plate on the trailer?  i have seen inside a plate which is about maintence etc - its an old rice i have got (fearful of the weight!)

now i have read earlier re the tyres and looking at their weight but it had off road type heavy duty tyres put on so would that figure be accurate if i cant find a plate? (at the mo i hope its just been painted over as i cant see why one would still be inside but not outside etc). 

if a trailer hasnt got a plate on - can you get one put on it and if so how do you go about it?

Thanks in advance!


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## D66 (6 February 2013)

ROG said:



			You have a few choices because you have B+E and LGV C1 ( up to 7.5 tonnes) so perhaps you might be better to ask on the tack room forum for which is best
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response ROG.  
Can I ask another question about towing with a horsebox?  

I have been told that I can tow a trailer or caravan of less than 650kg behind a horsebox on an ordinary (pre 97) licence.    If the weight of the trailed item is more than that I would need an HGV licence, regardless of the total weight of the outfit.  Is that correct?


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## bex1984 (6 February 2013)

ROG please can I double check this combo with you...

VW Passat Estate 1.9 SE TDI 130 (2000 - 2005 version)
Kerb weight: 1618kg
GVW: 2030kg I *think* this is right...it's so hard to find...grrr
Tows: 1600kg

Pony: 480kg (although he is porky at the mo, so let's say 500kg)

With a Bateson Deauville ULW 860kg, will need to get it downplated to 1470kg.

So 'oss + trailer is 1360kg so should be all ok?

*crosses fingers and awaits ROG's verdict*


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## ROG (7 February 2013)

digger66 said:



			Thanks for the response ROG.  
Can I ask another question about towing with a horsebox?  

I have been told that I can tow a trailer or caravan of less than 650kg behind a horsebox on an ordinary (pre 97) licence.    If the weight of the trailed item is more than that I would need an HGV licence, regardless of the total weight of the outfit.  Is that correct?
		
Click to expand...

With your licence ....
You can tow quite a large trailer/caravan behind a 3.5 horsebox but it will depend on the towing restrictions of the vehicle and not your licence

Towing a caravan/trailer behind a 7.5 tonner will be a max MAM/MPTLM of 750 kgs

Towing a caravan/trailer behind a 6 tonner will be a max of 2250 kgs MAM because your C1+E has a 107 code restricting the total plated GVW/MAM to 8250 kgs


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## ROG (7 February 2013)

bex1984 said:



			ROG please can I double check this combo with you...

VW Passat Estate 1.9 SE TDI 130 (2000 - 2005 version)
Kerb weight: 1618kg
GVW: 2030kg I *think* this is right...it's so hard to find...grrr
Tows: 1600kg

Pony: 480kg (although he is porky at the mo, so let's say 500kg)

With a Bateson Deauville ULW 860kg, will need to get it downplated to 1470kg.

So 'oss + trailer is 1360kg so should be all ok?

*crosses fingers and awaits ROG's verdict* 

Click to expand...

ALL OK and you will have about 100 kgs to spare in the trailer


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## ROG (7 February 2013)

luckilotti said:



			hi, 

OK, picked up trailer today so now i need to know all the other bits and bobs!

If driving 'provisionally' - do i need green or red L plates on (i assumed red but someone said it would be green as if i went on the motorway etc with red ones on loads of people would be calling the police etc thinking i was a total learner....) - i also assume then need to be at the front and rear of the car/trailer combo. 

i havent had a full on look but where could i find a plate on the trailer?  i have seen inside a plate which is about maintence etc - its an old rice i have got (fearful of the weight!)

now i have read earlier re the tyres and looking at their weight but it had off road type heavy duty tyres put on so would that figure be accurate if i cant find a plate? (at the mo i hope its just been painted over as i cant see why one would still be inside but not outside etc). 

if a trailer hasnt got a plate on - can you get one put on it and if so how do you go about it?

Thanks in advance!
		
Click to expand...

Red L plates front of vehicle and rear of trailer

The authoriites will go by the total of all the tyre load ratings if a plate cannot be found - the maximum will be 3500 even if they add up to more than that

Only the manufacturer of the trailer can arrange for a new or changed plate


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## bex1984 (7 February 2013)

ROG said:



			ALL OK and you will have about 100 kgs to spare in the trailer 

Click to expand...

YEY  This weekend I shall mostly be car and trailer shopping!! 

Thanks so much for all your help ROG


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## luckilotti (8 February 2013)

ROG said:



			Red L plates front of vehicle and rear of trailer

The authoriites will go by the total of all the tyre load ratings if a plate cannot be found - the maximum will be 3500 even if they add up to more than that

Only the manufacturer of the trailer can arrange for a new or changed plate
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, 

dont have all the info but what i think i have found....

1 - B (hopefully getting B+E but until then will be towing with L-plates on)
2  1985kg ?
3  2720
4  Max. Towing Weight  Braked 4000 Max. Towing Weight  Unbraked 750
Minimum Kerbweight 2055  (not sure if thats what was needed)
5  each tyre i think says around 1120lbs (will double check tomorrow!)
6  again  not sure how i could find out apart from going to a weight bridge?  (unless anyone has a general idea of an old rice trailer, takes 2x16.2, front and rear unload that could be used in this calculation)  i guess use a weight that would be a heavier trailer?

hopefully i will at least be able to take one of the childrens shetlands out :/


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## ROG (9 February 2013)

luckilotti said:



			Thanks for the reply, 

dont have all the info but what i think i have found....

1 - B (hopefully getting B+E but until then will be towing with L-plates on)
2  1985kg ?
3  2720
4  Max. Towing Weight  Braked 4000 Max. Towing Weight  Unbraked 750
Minimum Kerbweight 2055  (not sure if thats what was needed)
5  each tyre i think says around 1120lbs (will double check tomorrow!)
6  again  not sure how i could find out apart from going to a weight bridge?  (unless anyone has a general idea of an old rice trailer, takes 2x16.2, front and rear unload that could be used in this calculation)  i guess use a weight that would be a heavier trailer?

hopefully i will at least be able to take one of the childrens shetlands out :/
		
Click to expand...

With a GVW of 2720 then any trailer being towed which is over 780 kgs MAM is going to require to be driven under B+E rules


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## luckilotti (9 February 2013)

so does that mean i could still tow it with L plates whilst learning? 

i found a few diff sites and they gave diff figurers for my car which has also confused me a little so will get out my handbook and see if its in there.  (its a land rover discovery 300tdi 1996)


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## ROG (9 February 2013)

luckilotti said:



			so does that mean i could still tow it with L plates whilst learning? 

i found a few diff sites and they gave diff figurers for my car which has also confused me a little so will get out my handbook and see if its in there.  (its a land rover discovery 300tdi 1996)
		
Click to expand...

Yes - the GVW etc makes no difference under full or provisional B+E rules


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## luckilotti (9 February 2013)

Thanks. 

I have to say, i am in a bit of panic here as i am googling and have just read quite a few stories on Land Rover forums basically where people have been done by VOSA as they believe you can only tow a trailer of around 750kg due to the GVW of the disco


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## ROG (9 February 2013)

luckilotti said:



			Thanks. 

I have to say, i am in a bit of panic here as i am googling and have just read quite a few stories on Land Rover forums basically where people have been done by VOSA as they believe you can only tow a trailer of around 750kg due to the GVW of the disco 

Click to expand...

For those wishing to keep within B licence towing or for those wishing to keep outside tacho and commercial operator licence rules then that is correct

Your situation is different because all you wish to do is to tow privately under B+E provisional rules

One rule does not fit all - there are different rules for each situation


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## bex1984 (9 February 2013)

ROG, Is there a limit to what you can get a new ifor williams downplated to? Looking at a 401 trailer, which is 770kg, and trying to work out what car we can go for.


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## ROG (9 February 2013)

bex1984 said:



			ROG, Is there a limit to what you can get a new ifor williams downplated to? Looking at a 401 trailer, which is 770kg, and trying to work out what car we can go for.
		
Click to expand...

No lower limit but they will recommend you do not lower it to a point it becomes useless to carry a reasonable load

my guess would be a low limit of about 1300 to allow for a 500 horse


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## billylula (10 February 2013)

Luckilotti said ciuld


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## billylula (10 February 2013)

Sorry! Phone and small children!  Luckilotti asked if she could tow with L plates while learning - you cannot tow with a live load and L plates.


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## billylula (10 February 2013)

And you need someone who has their b and e sitting with you - so no taking the ponies out and just sticking L plates on unfortunately.


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## ROG (10 February 2013)

billylula said:



			Sorry! Phone and small children!  Luckilotti asked if she could tow with L plates while learning - you cannot tow with a live load and L plates.
		
Click to expand...

Oh yes you can


*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


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## billylula (10 February 2013)

According to my instructor that only applies to static loads not live loads. Confused.com!


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## ROG (10 February 2013)

billylula said:



			According to my instructor that only applies to static loads not live loads. Confused.com!
		
Click to expand...

Ask your instructor where that law is but do not expect an answer because there is not one


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## cattysmith (10 February 2013)

So, so confused.

I passed ten years ago. I missed passing before 1st Jan when I could have because I couldn't afford it. So as far as I know I've never been allowed to tow.

Now it seems there is some kind of change in the law where people passing now can tow.

This leaves the fifteen year gap of people who can't tow which is extremely unfair. That's ten years of experience in driving, with NO claims or accidents I have on someone passing today, yet they are allowed to tow and I am not. Is this correct?

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/in...r-caravans-with-vehicles-up-to-3-5-tonnes.htm


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## cattysmith (10 February 2013)

Sorry! Forgot to say, that's Northern Ireland.  BUT this confuses it further for the rest of he uk!

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/driving-licence-rules-and-what-you-can-tow


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## perfect11s (11 February 2013)

cattysmith said:



			Sorry! Forgot to say, that's Northern Ireland.  BUT this confuses it further for the rest of he uk!

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/driving-licence-rules-and-what-you-can-tow

Click to expand...

No the law has changed to  can only tow  up to750kg  where as your post 97 "B" licence allows you to tow a combination up to 3500kg so with the right choice of car and trailer you could tow one horse ... just!!! 
 this change  to post jan 2013  is good less confusing and sensible, and anyone wanting to tow a horse trailer will have to take the test which is a good road safety improvement ...


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## ROG (11 February 2013)

In reply to the last two posters .... 


The laws are the same for UK and NI

Before 1997 those passing the car test got a free B+E as well as some other categories

From jan 1997 those free categories were stopped due to EU laws

B licence holders have always and can still tow under these rules which did not change on 19 jan 2013
The GVW of the towing vehicle added to the trailer MAM must not be more than 3500 kgs
The trailer MAM must not be more than the towing vehicle kerbweight

The only change to B+E is for those passing B and B+E after 19/01/2013 as they will be limited to trailers of 3500 MAM and that is likely to  affect a minute amount of drivers, if any !!


So to conclude - 
No changes at all to B licences
3500 kg MAM trailer limit for B+E if both B and B+E passed after 19 Jan 2013


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## bex1984 (11 February 2013)

ROG said:



			No lower limit but they will recommend you do not lower it to a point it becomes useless to carry a reasonable load

my guess would be a low limit of about 1300 to allow for a 500 horse
		
Click to expand...

I did a bit of googling which suggested that the lower limit might be set by the coupling on the two axels...

soooo....when I checked out the 401 I have now bought (wooohoooo!    ) the coupling gave a range between 1300 and 1600...so I guess this might suggest a lower limit of 1300kg. Thought this might be useful info for others who are looking into this


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## asif (11 February 2013)

Hello...  just following from my Prev post... 

1.6 vectra + Older trailer its twin axle,  But im unsure to the make as its not ON the trailer . 

i have Full c +e licence... (ex army so i have everything. )

so as stated the car will probley be a bit Pants.. 
so what is the suggested car.... im on low end of the budget so i do need to keep that in mind.. no 4x4s...


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## ROG (11 February 2013)

asif said:



			Hello...  just following from my Prev post... 

1.6 vectra + Older trailer its twin axle,  But im unsure to the make as its not ON the trailer . 

i have Full c +e licence... (ex army so i have everything. )

so as stated the car will probley be a bit Pants.. 
so what is the suggested car.... im on low end of the budget so i do need to keep that in mind.. no 4x4s...
		
Click to expand...

Give me more info on the Vectra please


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## asif (11 February 2013)

ROG said:



			Give me more info on the Vectra please
		
Click to expand...

its a 1999/2000 plate.. 5door


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## ROG (11 February 2013)

asif said:



			its a 1999/2000 plate.. 5door
		
Click to expand...

THIS ONE ?
If it is then the max towing capacity is only 1150 kgs

That means the weight of the unladen trailer plus whatever you put in it should be no more than that

You got no issues licence wise with C+E and B+E

One car that tows well and has a towing capacity of 1800 kgs is the Ford Mondeo and the older ones can usually be picked up cheaply
ONE EXAMPLE - MONDEO ESTATE 2001


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## asif (11 February 2013)

ROG said:



THIS ONE ?
If it is then the max towing capacity is only 1150 kgs

That means the weight of the unladen trailer plus whatever you put in it should be no more than that

You got no issues licence wise with C+E and B+E

One car that tows well and has a towing capacity of 1800 kgs is the Ford Mondeo and the older ones can usually be picked up cheaply
ONE EXAMPLE - MONDEO ESTATE 2001

Click to expand...

Thanks.. and thats a Nice moter that.. deffo do me for the dogs too. . Thank you..


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## zoon (12 February 2013)

1 - currently b licence
2 - 2008 Mazda 6 2.0D S min 1530kg
3 - GVW 2075
4 - GTW 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer I am unsure of, but know it needs downplating to make it legal
6 - 1993 rice europa - 734kg unladen


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## ROG (12 February 2013)

zoon said:



			1 - currently b licence
2 - 2008 Mazda 6 2.0D S min 1530kg
3 - GVW 2075
4 - GTW 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer I am unsure of, but know it needs downplating to make it legal
6 - 1993 rice europa - 734kg unladen
		
Click to expand...

RICE EUROPA TRAILER
unladen 980 kgs
MAM 2300
According to the link but if you know yours is lighter then I will go by your unladen weight of 734 

Maximum trailer plated MAM of 1425 for B licence towing
1425 - 734 = 691 kgs for the load/horse


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## zoon (12 February 2013)

ROG said:



RICE EUROPA TRAILER
unladen 980 kgs
MAM 2300
According to the link but if you know yours is lighter then I will go by your unladen weight of 734 

Maximum trailer plated MAM of 1425 for B licence towing
1425 - 734 = 691 kgs for the load/horse
		
Click to expand...

Definitely that weight - plate on front of vehicle. Plan to remove giant heavy partition too as will only be able to tow one, so weight will be 600 and something. Is it possible once partition is out and new full length breast bar in to get that plate changed with new weight or is that jot necessary? My horses only weigh about 500kg each (and obviously can only travel one of them) so that'll be ok? Hay net about 5kg on top of that


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## ROG (12 February 2013)

zoon said:



			Definitely that weight - plate on front of vehicle. Plan to remove giant heavy partition too as will only be able to tow one, so weight will be 600 and something. Is it possible once partition is out and new full length breast bar in to get that plate changed with new weight or is that jot necessary? My horses only weigh about 500kg each (and obviously can only travel one of them) so that'll be ok? Hay net about 5kg on top of that 

Click to expand...

Never trust the plates for unladen weight unless new as things can get changed over the years - always best to go and weight it empty at a public weighbridge to be sure

Just google - public weighbridge with the name of your town for the nearest one


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## zoon (12 February 2013)

There is one down the road from us, but this trailer is as new - even has the original 1993 floor! (That is obviously being replaced)

Any idea how much weight bridges are to use?


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## ROG (12 February 2013)

zoon said:



			Any idea how much weight bridges are to use?
		
Click to expand...

From what I hear .....
£10 for a ticket
£5 cash - no ticket - say no more ......


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## zoon (12 February 2013)

Cheap then, that's no issue. If it weighs less with huge solid wood partition out (obviously it will, but a decent amount less) that'll increase the load I can take - would I need to get the plate on front changed? Or should that simply be removed...


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## ROG (12 February 2013)

zoon said:



			would I need to get the plate on front changed? Or should that simply be removed...
		
Click to expand...

To downplate
contact trailer manufacturer
They put you in touch with their local agent
Local agent sorts it out with you


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## zoon (12 February 2013)

That changes the mam for the trailer, but does it also change the unladen weight?


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## ROG (13 February 2013)

zoon said:



			That changes the mam for the trailer, but does it also change the unladen weight?
		
Click to expand...

I am having a little titter to myself because you have not thought that question through


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## zoon (13 February 2013)

I don't get it!


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## ROG (13 February 2013)

zoon said:



			I don't get it! 

Click to expand...

An empty trailer weighs X kgs so how would changing the numbers on a little metal plate change that fact ?


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## zoon (13 February 2013)

So that weight is without the partitions, breast bars etc? The partition is a full height solid wood partition of approx 100kg


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## zoon (13 February 2013)

I figured that weight was trailer as it was produced (partition and all) without what the purchaser is going to put inside (horses, water etc). This full height solid hardwood partition (remember this is a 20yr old trailer) is going to be removed if we're only going to be able to travel 1, so I figured my unladen weight was going to drop by about 100kg (it's a guess, but takes 3 of us to manoeuvre it, so it is a significant weight whatever it is!)


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## ROG (14 February 2013)

zoon said:



			I figured that weight was trailer as it was produced (partition and all) without what the purchaser is going to put inside (horses, water etc). This full height solid hardwood partition (remember this is a 20yr old trailer) is going to be removed if we're only going to be able to travel 1, so I figured my unladen weight was going to drop by about 100kg (it's a guess, but takes 3 of us to manoeuvre it, so it is a significant weight whatever it is!)
		
Click to expand...

You could make it lighter and then go to a weighbridge for an oficial ticket which you could present when downplating the MAM if you want to

That could be useful for resale in the future and you would then know how much you can load into it


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## LovesCobs (16 February 2013)

What do you know of the new Hyundai Santa Fe?
I have a cheval trailer (750kg) currently tow with a rav 4 (1 horse) I'd like to tow 2 and would like to change the trailer to an ifor at some point,but need the car for everyday use as well. I have a pre- 97 licence


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## ROG (16 February 2013)

Lovescobs said:



			What do you know of the new Hyundai Santa Fe?
I have a cheval trailer (750kg) currently tow with a rav 4 (1 horse) I'd like to tow 2 and would like to change the trailer to an ifor at some point,but need the car for everyday use as well. I have a pre- 97 licence
		
Click to expand...

CHOOSE YOUR MODEL FROM THIS LIST then scroll down the specifications to find the towing capacity

B+E licence = ok

Ifor double trailer will be between 900 to 1000 depending on which you opt for
Two horses in the region of 1000 ?
2000 capacity will be close so go for a towing capacity of 2500 or higher


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## LovesCobs (17 February 2013)

Hmmmm think I might go for a pathfinder and have 3000 limit, any experience with them as cars? I'll post in tackroom as well


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## Olliepop (18 February 2013)

1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1655kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2250kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2200kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres = 1400kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 550kg 

Is this legal on a B licence and what would weight would I be able to carry in the trailer?


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## ROG (18 February 2013)

Olliepop said:



			1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1655kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2250kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2200kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres = 1400kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 550kg 

Is this legal on a B licence and what would weight would I be able to carry in the trailer?
		
Click to expand...

*Not legal on a B licence because GVW 2250 + Trailer MAM 1400 = 3650 which is 150 kgs over the 3500 limit*

*To make it legal the trailer would need down plating to 1250* and would then be able to carry a weight of 700 (1250-550=700)
I hope the manufacturer of that trailer is still trading so you can down plate it

Thats a very light trailer at 550 so have you double checked that?


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## Olliepop (18 February 2013)

Thanks ROG - I don't have a trailer at the moment so it's all hypothetical. It was one of the Cheval 1003 XL Pullman trailers which was quoted as 550kg although maybe the website had it wrong. I'd better have a look at the B+E test requirements - not looking forward to another driving test I'm getting too old!


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## ROG (18 February 2013)

Olliepop said:



			Thanks ROG - I don't have a trailer at the moment so it's all hypothetical. It was one of the Cheval 1003 XL Pullman trailers which was quoted as 550kg although maybe the website had it wrong. I'd better have a look at the B+E test requirements - not looking forward to another driving test I'm getting too old!
		
Click to expand...

From memory the Cheval Liberte (company still trading  )1003 is 675 kgs unladen/empty so at 1250 kgs (downplated MAM) that would leave 575 kgs for the horse/load in the trailer

Getting B+E will always serve you well in the future if not now so is worth getting IMO and its for life


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## mischamoo (20 February 2013)

Hi ROG, in a previous post to mine I have been looking further into the single trailer (the ifor HB403 or HB401) option as I only hold a B licence. I want to tow a horse weighing approx 500kgs, (me tack water etc is probably never more than 100kgs) so far most the 4x4's I've seen (if my understanding is correct) including the smaller ones like Rav 4's and freelanders, I would not be able to legally tow as the majority of their GVW is c.2000kg, so combined with the maximum gross weight of the ifor single which is approx 1600kg I would be over the 3.5ton combination. If what I've taken in is correct what options of towing vehicles can I legally tow this trailer on? Or is the simplest option to get one of the smaller 4x4's (I quite like the Kia sportages if that would tow the trailer in question? One I have seen has a GVW of 1928kg, towing unbraked 465kg, kerb weight 1498kg, towing weight braked 1800kg, loading weight 400kg) am I looking for the impossible?? Any suggestions of 4x4 I can legally tow with the ifor single would be great and ease my headache!! Thankyou!!


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## ROG (21 February 2013)

mischamoo said:



			Hi ROG, in a previous post to mine I have been looking further into the single trailer (the ifor HB403 or HB401) option as I only hold a B licence. 

I want to tow a horse weighing approx 500kgs, (me tack water etc is probably never more than 100kgs) so far most the 4x4's I've seen (if my understanding is correct) including the smaller ones like Rav 4's and freelanders, I would not be able to legally tow as the majority of their GVW is c.2000kg, so combined with the maximum gross weight of the ifor single which is approx 1600kg I would be over the 3.5ton combination. 

If what I've taken in is correct what options of towing vehicles can I legally tow this trailer on? Or is the simplest option to get one of the smaller 4x4's (I quite like the Kia sportages if that would tow the trailer in question? 

One I have seen has a GVW of 1928kg, towing unbraked 465kg, kerb weight 1498kg, towing weight braked 1800kg, loading weight 400kg) am I looking for the impossible?? 

Any suggestions of 4x4 I can legally tow with the ifor single would be great and ease my headache!! Thankyou!!
		
Click to expand...

YOU MISSED THE EASY OPTION  = down plating the HB401/403 to conform to the 3500 rule.

This can easily be done by contacting the manufacturer (Ifor Williams in this case) who will then do the necessary at their end then put you in touch with your nearest dealer who will physically change the plate all at little or no cost

Down plating a HB401/403 from 1600 to 1400 would still leave 630 for the load/horse 1400-770=630
That leaves 2100 for the vehicle GVW and its very unlikely that the kerbweight will be less than 1400


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## mischamoo (21 February 2013)

ROG said:



			YOU MISSED THE EASY OPTION  = down plating the HB401/403 to conform to the 3500 rule.

This can easily be done by contacting the manufacturer (Ifor Williams in this case) who will then do the necessary at their end then put you in touch with your nearest dealer who will physically change the plate all at little or no cost

Down plating a HB401/403 from 1600 to 1400 would still leave 630 for the load/horse 1400-770=630
That leaves 2100 for the vehicle GVW and its very unlikely that the kerbweight will be less than 1400
		
Click to expand...

ROG, you've saved me another headache search in looking for the perfect towing beast! In that case I think I will purchase the Kia Sportage I've seen with going for the Ifor 403 or 401 and downplating! Thanks so much! You a are towing fountain of knowledge  and I'm sure I'm not the only HHO'er you have kindly helped!


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## Julia0803 (21 February 2013)

Hi ROG,

I was wondering if you could please help me.

I am about to inherit a 2007 BMW 5 series M sport with 3 litre diesel engine. I wondered if I could tow with it. i have been having a google and think this is what I've found. 


Gross Weight 2305 kg
Kerb Weight 1770 kg
Towing Limit (braked)2000 kg

I am trying to investigate what options, if any, i would have with regard to what I could tow.

I currently have a B licence, but would look into the B+E if necessary.

I have one 14.2/3 weighing approx 400kg 

I currently catch lifts with a friend in her horse box. But it would be great if I could transport myself.

I guess I would be looking at one of the very light, single horse trailers? Can you recommend a brand or model that i should be looking at?

Thanks very much.


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## ROG (21 February 2013)

Julia0803 said:



			Hi ROG,

I was wondering if you could please help me.

I am about to inherit a 2007 BMW 5 series M sport with 3 litre diesel engine. I wondered if I could tow with it. i have been having a google and think this is what I've found. 


Gross Weight 2305 kg
Kerb Weight 1770 kg
Towing Limit (braked)2000 kg

I am trying to investigate what options, if any, i would have with regard to what I could tow.

I currently have a B licence, but would look into the B+E if necessary.

I have one 14.2/3 weighing approx 400kg 

I currently catch lifts with a friend in her horse box. But it would be great if I could transport myself.

I guess I would be looking at one of the very light, single horse trailers? Can you recommend a brand or model that i should be looking at?

Thanks very much.
		
Click to expand...

Some ideas .....
BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER = 675 kgs unladen
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER = 655 kgs unladen
IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER = 770 kgs unladen

Contact trailer manufacturer to have trailer downplated if needed (free or very little cost)

The max trailer plated MAM for that vehicle on a B licence will only be 1195 kgs and the lightest unladen weight in those examples is 655 kgs so using those figures you would be left with a max payload of 540 kgs which is plenty for a 400 kg horse

The heaviest of those examples has a 770 unladen weight so down plating that to 1195 kgs will leave a payload of 425 kgs which is a bit tight

Using a standard saloon instead of a 4X4 is ok but driving on a non hard surface is very likely to cause problems


----------



## Julia0803 (21 February 2013)

Thanks very much for your reply ROG.

I will look into those trailers suggested. I would be looking to buy second hand. I'd start looking at the lightest as of course that gives a little extra wiggle room for tack/water etc.

The car is rear wheel drive, I don't know how that affects things, if at all?

I don't think I would be going anywhere off road or muddy at least. At the moment it would be on road and then onto tarmac-ed surfaces at other yards to take my son to PC/local equestrian centre. In the summer most of the local level shows are on grass but usually fairly firm (unless we have another summer like last year!!) Would it be up to the job on a firm grassy surface, or would it be better to try and catch a lift on such occasions? 

Thank you again


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## ROG (21 February 2013)

Julia0803 said:



			Thanks very much for your reply ROG.

I will look into those trailers suggested. I would be looking to buy second hand. I'd start looking at the lightest as of course that gives a little extra wiggle room for tack/water etc.

The car is rear wheel drive, I don't know how that affects things, if at all?

I don't think I would be going anywhere off road or muddy at least. At the moment it would be on road and then onto tarmac-ed surfaces at other yards to take my son to PC/local equestrian centre. In the summer most of the local level shows are on grass but usually fairly firm (unless we have another summer like last year!!) Would it be up to the job on a firm grassy surface, or would it be better to try and catch a lift on such occasions? 

Thank you again
		
Click to expand...

Hard dry grass = ok but I would not risk it on anything less

Remember to contact the trailer manufacturer when you get a trailer so do not choose a trailer where they have gone out of business

RWD gives more grip with a trailer on


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## Julia0803 (21 February 2013)

Thanks.

Does that mean you cannot get the MAM plate changed if the manufacturer has gone out of business?

Sorry for all the questions!


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## ROG (21 February 2013)

Julia0803 said:



			Does that mean you cannot get the MAM plate changed if the manufacturer has gone out of business?
		
Click to expand...

It does indeed mean just that


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## slumdog (21 February 2013)

I was wondering if this van could legally tow anything?

1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - (kerb weight?) 1185
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 1700
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - I've been trying to find out but google varies, I'll say 850kg as stated on "whatvan"

Thank you


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## ROG (21 February 2013)

slumdog said:



			I was wondering if this van could legally tow anything?

1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - (kerb weight?) 1185
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 1700
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - I've been trying to find out but google varies, I'll say 850kg as stated on "whatvan"

Thank you 

Click to expand...

Providing the GTW or towing capacity allow then the maximum trailer plated MAM would be 1185 kgs on a B licence

IS IT THIS VAN ?


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## slumdog (21 February 2013)

So if the GTW 850kg is correct could I still tow 1185kgs? Sorry, I probably sound dumb but it gives me such a headache lol! It's an escort van 1.8 55td, I rang ford who were useless and just told me to google it! I want a lightweight one horse trailer. Thanks for your help!


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## slumdog (21 February 2013)

http://www.helpfindmea.co.uk/vans/s...l-95-02-18-van-turbo-specifications-1796.aspx

This one


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## ROG (21 February 2013)

slumdog said:



			So if the GTW 850kg is correct could I still tow 1185kgs? Sorry, I probably sound dumb but it gives me such a headache lol! It's an escort van 1.8 55td, I rang ford who were useless and just told me to google it! I want a lightweight one horse trailer. Thanks for your help!
		
Click to expand...

The GTW is usually the same as the GVW added to the towing capacity

GTW is the actual weight of the vehicle and the trailer when placed on a weighbridge


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## ROG (21 February 2013)

slumdog said:



http://www.helpfindmea.co.uk/vans/s...l-95-02-18-van-turbo-specifications-1796.aspx

This one 

Click to expand...

Thanks - makes it so easy 

Gross Train Weight 2550
Gross Vehicle Weight 1700
Minimum Kerbweight 1185

There is no max towing capacity listed so if the van is fully loaded to 1700 then the trailer can be loaded to 850 kgs 

On your B licence you can have a trailer plated at 1185 kgs MAM and fully load it to that weight but the van can only be 1365 actual weight if it is because 1185+1365=2550


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## slumdog (21 February 2013)

ROG said:



			Thanks - makes it so easy 

Gross Train Weight 2550
Gross Vehicle Weight 1700
Minimum Kerbweight 1185

There is no max towing capacity listed so if the van is fully loaded to 1700 then the trailer can be loaded to 850 kgs 

On your B licence you can have a trailer plated at 1185 kgs MAM and fully load it to that weight but the van can only be 1365 actual weight if it is because 1185+1365=2550
		
Click to expand...

So do you think it will be possible to find a lightweight one horse trailer? Providing I have nothing in the van whilst towing? I have my eye on a small trailer but its not a 'make' and they don't know the weight (helpful I know lol) I find it so confusing! To be honest I'd just buy a 3.5t lorry with a decent payload if I could afford it!

Edited to say- I noticed you're also in Leicester, do you know where the test can be taken?


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## ROG (21 February 2013)

slumdog said:



			So do you think it will be possible to find a lightweight one horse trailer? Providing I have nothing in the van whilst towing? I have my eye on a small trailer but its not a 'make' and they don't know the weight (helpful I know lol) I find it so confusing! To be honest I'd just buy a 3.5t lorry with a decent payload if I could afford it!

Edited to say- I noticed you're also in Leicester, do you know where the test can be taken?
		
Click to expand...

THESE are who I would recommend for B+E training and test but there are others in the area

The lightest trailer I know of is a Cheval liberte at 655 empty so with a MAM down plated to 1185 that would leave 530 for the load/horse

It would be a very unusual set up using that van and I would be concerned as to its stability


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## slumdog (21 February 2013)

ROG said:



THESE are who I would recommend for B+E training and test but there are others in the area

The lightest trailer I know of is a Cheval liberte at 655 empty so with a MAM down plated to 1185 that would leave 530 for the load/horse

It would be a very unusual set up using that van and I would be concerned as to its stability
		
Click to expand...

We have towed using the van (not a horse though) and it was ok. But I wouldn't want to tow it if it was unsafe, maybe have a re-think then. Thanks for your help x


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## Victoria25 (25 February 2013)

Anyone else tow a trailer with a Dodge Nitro? Its spec says: 

2.8 engine car
Gross vehicle weight  2520kg 
Max load weight - 505kg 
Max tow weight (braked) 2394
Max tow weight (unbraked) 750 
Min kerb weight  2015 

My trailer is the 2004 Cheval Liberte (double trailer) and it says the unladen weight of this is 740 (gross max 2000kg).

It would be travelling a 16.1 TB (lightweight), a 16hh arab (dainty) or a youngster (one at any one time) 

Would this 4x4 be suitable or not? x


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## ROG (25 February 2013)

Victoria25 said:



			Anyone else tow a trailer with a Dodge Nitro? Its spec says: 

2.8 engine car
Gross vehicle weight  2520kg 
Max load weight - 505kg 
Max tow weight (braked) 2394
Max tow weight (unbraked) 750 
Min kerb weight  2015 

My trailer is the 2004 Cheval Liberte (double trailer) and it says the unladen weight of this is 740 (gross max 2000kg).

It would be travelling a 16.1 TB (lightweight), a 16hh arab (dainty) or a youngster (one at any one time) 

Would this 4x4 be suitable or not? x
		
Click to expand...

Perfectly ok under B+E licence rules

The maximum actual weight of the trailer including its load is 2000 kgs.
2000 is well within the vehicles towing capacity of 2394 so the vehicle should be able to easily cope with a max loaded trailer of 2000


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## clippi (25 February 2013)

I'm missing some bits of information, sorry
B+E
2.5 engine car
Gross vehicle weight &#8211; 2640kg 
Max load weight - 
Max tow weight (braked) 3000
Max tow weight (unbraked) 
Min kerb weight &#8211; 2065 

Trailer: Max gross weight 2340 kg 

Unladen weight 905.00 kg

What does this mean I can have inside the trailer assuming I'm legal


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## ROG (25 February 2013)

clippi said:



			I'm missing some bits of information, sorry
*B+E*
2.5 engine car
Gross vehicle weight  2640kg 
Max load weight - 
*Max tow weight (braked) 3000*
Max tow weight (unbraked) 
Min kerb weight  2065 

*Trailer: Max gross weight 2340 kg *

Unladen weight 905.00 kg

What does this mean I can have inside the trailer assuming I'm legal
		
Click to expand...

You have the important bits in this case 

The maximum your trailer can be when fully loaded is 2340 kgs

For B+E towing the LOWEST of these figures is the one to go by ....
Vehicle towing capacity - 3000 in this case
Trailer plated MAM - 2340 in this case


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## Victoria25 (26 February 2013)

ROG said:



			Perfectly ok under B+E licence rules

The maximum actual weight of the trailer including its load is 2000 kgs.
2000 is well within the vehicles towing capacity of 2394 so the vehicle should be able to easily cope with a max loaded trailer of 2000 

Click to expand...

Thanks so much ROG ... so does that mean I could tow two if I had to? Or would that be too much? I probably wont ever need to but just incase? x


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## ROG (26 February 2013)

Victoria25 said:



			Thanks so much ROG ... so does that mean I could tow two if I had to? Or would that be too much? I probably wont ever need to but just incase? x
		
Click to expand...

2000-740=1260 so that is 1260 for the load/horses so it depends on how heavy the horses are plus anything else you load into it


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## Victoria25 (26 February 2013)

Hmm interesting as both would be under 600 each (especially if I had one biggie and the youngster) thanks ROG x


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## clippi (26 February 2013)

ROG said:



			You have the important bits in this case 

The maximum your trailer can be when fully loaded is 2340 kgs

For B+E towing the LOWEST of these figures is the one to go by ....
Vehicle towing capacity - 3000 in this case
Trailer plated MAM - 2340 in this case
		
Click to expand...

So giving me 2349-905= 1435kg to be able to put in the trailer? The most that ever goes in 650kg

But presume it's fully laden does that then give me 3000-2340=660 for passengers, fuel,etc?


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## ROG (26 February 2013)

clippi said:



			So giving me 2349-905= 1435kg to be able to put in the trailer? The most that ever goes in 650kg

But presume it's fully laden does that then give me 3000-2340=660 for passengers, fuel,etc?
		
Click to expand...

I do hope you are not going to put passengers and fuel in the trailer with the horse !!!!!! 

There are seperate max weights for the vehicle (GVW) and the trailer (MAM)

There is also the GTW listed on the vehicle which refers to the max actual weight of both vehicle and trailer when placed together on a weighbridge
The GTW does not refer to the GVW + MAM weights listed


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## Spiritedly (26 February 2013)

Hi Rog, I, hopefully, will be getting a Nissan Terrano 2.7 in a couple of weeks and wondered what size of trailer I would be able to tow with it? I passed my test in 1989 so I'm not sure which entitlement that gives me? Thank you


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## ROG (26 February 2013)

Spiritedly said:



			Hi Rog, I, hopefully, will be getting a Nissan Terrano 2.7 in a couple of weeks and wondered what size of trailer I would be able to tow with it? I passed my test in 1989 so I'm not sure which entitlement that gives me? Thank you 

Click to expand...

It has a towing capacity of 2800 kgs

That means you can add the unladen weight of the trailer to the load inside it and not exceed 2800 as that is what the manufacturer has stated the vehicle will be able to safely cope with

If the plated MAM of the trailer is less than 2800 then that plated MAM figure is the maximum weight limit of both trailer and its load

You have a pre 1997 licence so have B+E which is what you need for this set up


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## irishcob (26 February 2013)

Just found this thread - fab!

Car is Vauxhall Vectra Elite 2.0L
Trailer is Rice Richardson old style (600kg)
Horse is approx 690kg

This is not my set up (won't tow in anything smaller than my Landrover Discovery!), but of another user.  Maybe they are indeed correct that it is legal, but the car just doesn't seem heavy enough for such a large horse?  I don't want to publicly embarrass them, but to warn them if you feel it isn't legal/safe.

Many thanks!


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## ROG (26 February 2013)

irishcob said:



			Just found this thread - fab!

Car is Vauxhall Vectra Elite 2.0L
Trailer is Rice Richardson old style (600kg)
Horse is approx 690kg

This is not my set up (won't tow in anything smaller than my Landrover Discovery!), but of another user.  Maybe they are indeed correct that it is legal, but the car just doesn't seem heavy enough for such a large horse?  I don't want to publicly embarrass them, but to warn them if you feel it isn't legal/safe.

Many thanks!
		
Click to expand...

Cannot give a definitive answer due to lack of info but will take a GUESS that the Vectra has a towing capacity of 1500 kgs so should manage 1300 approx
The driver would require a B+E licence


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## rockysmum (26 February 2013)

irishcob said:



			Just found this thread - fab!

Car is Vauxhall Vectra Elite 2.0L
Trailer is Rice Richardson old style (600kg)
Horse is approx 690kg

This is not my set up (won't tow in anything smaller than my Landrover Discovery!), but of another user.  Maybe they are indeed correct that it is legal, but the car just doesn't seem heavy enough for such a large horse?  I don't want to publicly embarrass them, but to warn them if you feel it isn't legal/safe.

Many thanks!
		
Click to expand...

Have they weighed the trailer    To get it down to 600 I assume they have removed the partition and changed the floor to aluminium.  I've had a lot of Rice trailers and non of them, even the one with rear unload got anywhere near that weight.  I would have guessed that the chassis and body would weight that without the floor and other "extras"


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## ROG (26 February 2013)

*I decided to make post numbers 999 and 1000 a reminder of what can be done on a B licence and what the general rules are* 

LIGHTWEIGHT TRAILER EXAMPLES:-
http://www.batesontrailers.com/product/horse-trailers/derby-lightweight-horse-pony/
http://www.chevaltrailers.co.uk/single-mare-foal.html
http://www.horsetrailersales.co.uk/NewIforHB403.asp

Contact trailer manufacturer to have trailer downplated if needed (free or very little cost)

Toyota Rav 4 (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1425
GVW = 1785
Max towing weight = 1500
Max trailer plated MAM = 1425 kgs


Nissan X trail (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1515
GVW = 2050
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs

Kia Sportage (AWD) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1678
GVW = 2140
Towing = 1600
Max trailer plated MAM = 1360 kgs

FREELANDER 1 (2001 - 2005)
Unladen/kerb = 1500
GVW = 2040
Towing = 1800
Max trailer plated MAM = 1460 kgs

SUBARU FORRESTER (4X4) 
Unladen/kerb = 1465 minimum
GVW = 2050 maximum
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs

Skoda Yeti (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Kerb = 1530
GVW = 2070
Towing capacity = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1430 kgs 

Suzuki vitara (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Kerb = 1400
GVW = 1950
Towing = 1850
Max trailer plated MAM = 1400 kgs


Deduct trailer unladen weight from max trailer plated weight to get maximum load/horse weight for the trailer
Example:- Nissan (1450) minus IFOR HB403 (770 appx) = load/horse 680 kgs

Many standard saloon/estate cars can also be used for B licence towing with a horse trailer.
The types of surfaces being driven on must be considered if not using a 4X4


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## ROG (26 February 2013)

*Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained*

The towing vehicle info can be obtained from the V5 registered keepers form, the handbook, a plate somewhere on the vehicle or on the internet.
Kerbweight (weight when empty)
GVW or MAM (max possible legal weight when fully loaded)
Towing capacity (manufacturer actual towing weight limit &#8211; not legally enforceable but based on safety and engine power)
GTW - the max legal weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights.
In most cases, the GVW added to the towing capacity will also be the GTW.

The trailer info can be obtained from a plate on the trailer, by calling the trailer manufacturer, or on the internet. If no plate then the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS will be used by the authorities to determine the MAM.
Unladen (weight when empty)
MAM or MTPLM (max legal weight fully loaded)

The only legally recognised way to down plate a trailer of 3500 kgs MAM or less is to contact the manufacturer at little or no cost.

The laws/rules are these:-

For both B+E & B licence towing.
The GVW of the vehicle must not be exceeded (law)
The GTW must not be exceeded (law)
The plated MAM of the trailer must not be exceeded (law).
The towing capacity should not be exceeded.
The lower of the trailer MAM or the towing capacity must/should be used
The trailer MAM can legally be more than the towing capacity.(internet myths may say otherwise)

For B licence towing with a trailer over 750 kgs MAM.
The vehicle GVW added to the trailer MAM must not exceed 3500 kgs (law)

EXAMPLE
Vehicle
GVW 2050 kgs
Towing capacity 1700 kgs

Trailer
Unladen 600 kgs
MAM 2000 kgs

For B+E licence towing the trailer can be loaded with 1100 kgs because 1100+600=1700 kgs which is the towing capacity.

For B licence towing the trailer would need down plating from 2000 kgs to a maximum of 1450 kgs.
The reason is that 1450+2050=3500 which is the maximum allowed for B licence towing.
The trailer can be loaded with 850 kgs because 850+600=1450 kgs which is the trailer MAM.

Caravan weights work on the recommended (not legal) 85% towing advice.

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO OF SHOW ME/TELL ME QUESTIONS (Usually 5) = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqw6Ua3kmFc&feature=related
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO OF REVERSING EXCERISE = http://www.drivesafedriving.co.uk/b_e_rev_movie.htm - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO OF UNCOUPLE/COUPLE = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao_5KOe8dGg&feature=related - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos

This is interesting BUT NOT RECOMMENDED &#8211; a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test. So you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself. 
DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS = http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_4022521 



Please post with as much of this info as you can if you want me to answer a specific query - weights in kgs please (might be made easier if the info below is copied and pasted with the weights etc put after the '=' bits)

LICENCE
B or B+E =

VEHICLE
GVW =
Towing capacity = 

TRAILER
Unladen = 
MAM =


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## catroo (27 February 2013)

Hi ROG

Can you tell me if I can do the following if I get trailer replated ? Not sure on one of the numbers

LICENCE
B or B+E = B

VEHICLE  Ford Kuga 2.0 Diesel (140ps)
Kerb = 1614KG
GVW = 2130KG
Towing capacity = 2100KG
GTW = ?

TRAILER ifor 505
Unladen = 905kg
MAM = 2500kg?

Pony is 250KG

My other half normally does the towing, he has B+E, but thinking about emergencies

If not would a lighter trailer work is is the vehicle the problem?


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## ROG (27 February 2013)

catroo said:



			Hi ROG

Can you tell me if I can do the following if I get trailer replated ? Not sure on one of the numbers

LICENCE
B or B+E = B

VEHICLE  Ford Kuga 2.0 Diesel (140ps)
Kerb = 1614KG
GVW = 2130KG
Towing capacity = 2100KG
GTW = ?

TRAILER ifor 505
Unladen = 905kg
MAM = 2500kg?

Pony is 250KG

My other half normally does the towing, he has B+E, but thinking about emergencies

If not would a lighter trailer work is is the vehicle the problem?
		
Click to expand...

That is a VERY light pony so this is possible on a B licence 

contact Ifor williams to get the trailer down plated from 2340 to 1370 kgs MAM
1370-905=465 for the load/pony


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## catroo (27 February 2013)

ROG said:



			That is a VERY light pony so this is possible on a B licence 

contact Ifor williams to get the trailer down plated from 2340 to 1370 kgs MAM
1370-905=465 for the load/pony
		
Click to expand...

Yeah! Thank you ROG

Pony is a little shetland so everything is small and light, no tack, no partition, small haynet etc

Next question - in one of your previous posts you referred to Max trailer plated MAM of the vehicle, can you tell me what that is for the Ford Kuga?


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## ROG (27 February 2013)

catroo said:



			Yeah! Thank you ROG

Pony is a little shetland so everything is small and light, no tack, no partition, small haynet etc

Next question - in one of your previous posts you referred to Max trailer plated MAM of the vehicle, can you tell me what that is for the Ford Kuga?
		
Click to expand...

Max trailer plated MAM *FOR* the vehicle if under B licence towing rules


KUGA Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) = 2130 Kg

For B licence towing the maximum trailer plated MAM is 1370 

This is because GVW added to trailer MAM must not be more than 3500


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## deoni (3 March 2013)

Hi I have a Jeep Grand Cheeroke 1997 2.5 (not sure of rest of info sorry!) 
and also a 730kg (or around that) trailer which can carry 2000kg all together. I don't have my B+E license, can i carry a small horse who weighs about 400-450? Sorry my info is rubbish!


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## ROG (3 March 2013)

deoni said:



			Hi I have a Jeep Grand Cheeroke 1997 2.5 (not sure of rest of info sorry!) 
and also a 730kg (or around that) trailer which can carry 2000kg all together. I don't have my B+E license, can i carry a small horse who weighs about 400-450? Sorry my info is rubbish! 

Click to expand...

Assuming its THIS ONE then it has these weight dimensions - 

GVW 2400
Kerb 1835
towing 2300

As you only have a B licence then the maximum trailer plated MAM is only 1100 kgs (2400+1100=3500)

If you contacted the manufacturer of your trailer and got it down plated to 1100 then with an unladen weight of 730 kgs the maximum for the horse/load will only be 370 kgs

The big problem here is that the vehicle GVW is too high at 2400 - you need a vehicle with a GVW of between 2000 and 2200 to get a decent MAM for the trailer


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## deoni (3 March 2013)

ROG said:



			Assuming its THIS ONE then it has these weight dimensions - 

GVW 2400
Kerb 1835
towing 2300

As you only have a B licence then the maximum trailer plated MAM is only 1100 kgs (2400+1100=3500)

If you contacted the manufacturer of your trailer and got it down plated to 1100 then with an unladen weight of 730 kgs the maximum for the horse/load will only be 370 kgs

The big problem here is that the vehicle GVW is too high at 2400 - you need a vehicle with a GVW of between 2000 and 2200 to get a decent MAM for the trailer
		
Click to expand...

OK thank you. I already have the car and trailer so looks like I will have to do my test soon!  thank you.


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## ROG (3 March 2013)

deoni said:



			OK thank you. I already have the car and trailer so looks like I will have to do my test soon!  thank you.
		
Click to expand...

You can drive it under supervision now - see post number 1000 in the thread


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## Victoria25 (4 March 2013)

ROG, sorry for another question: 

I have a 2004 Cheval Liberte (double trailer) and it says the unladen weight of this is 740 (gross max 2000kg).

We have an L200 if we ever needed to take two horses to say a show (plus an older person to be with me) BUT before I take my test Im thinking of swapping my car and wondered if there was a vehicle I could tow this trailer with plus one horse max on my B license? Or is this impossible?

x

The horse in the trailer would be a lightweight TB (16.1)


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## ROG (4 March 2013)

Victoria25 said:



			ROG, sorry for another question: 

I have a 2004 Cheval Liberte (double trailer) and it says the unladen weight of this is 740 (gross max 2000kg).

We have an L200 if we ever needed to take two horses to say a show (plus an older person to be with me) BUT before I take my test Im thinking of swapping my car and wondered if there was a vehicle I could tow this trailer with plus one horse max on my B license? Or is this impossible?

x

The horse in the trailer would be a lightweight TB (16.1)
		
Click to expand...

*For B licence towing ......*
The trailer would have to be down plated by Cheval which would then mean it cannot be used for two horses until it is up-plated again

I will use this vehicle as an example
Nissan X trail (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Unladen/kerb = 1515
GVW = 2050
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs

The Cheval would need down plating from 2000 to 1450 using the above Xtrail which would then leave 710 kgs for the horse/load


*For B+E provisional towing .....*
You can use the L200 and trailer as it is with 2 horses in it


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## Victoria25 (4 March 2013)

Ahh I see, ideally Ill need it for two horses so looks like Im best taking my test arent I to save any messing about! 

When you book your test on line do they supply a trailer ROG or do you have to take your own?


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## ROG (4 March 2013)

Victoria25 said:



			Ahh I see, ideally Ill need it for two horses so looks like Im best taking my test arent I to save any messing about! 

When you book your test on line do they supply a trailer ROG or do you have to take your own?
		
Click to expand...

The practical test is usually booked by the training company you go with and that fee is usually in with the price of the course

The training company supply both the vehicle and trailer

A LGV/B+E training company near me does 3 half days training with test on day 3 for the all in price of about £650 - retests extra


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## Victoria25 (4 March 2013)

Can you not just take the test without the training course?


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## ROG (4 March 2013)

Victoria25 said:



			Can you not just take the test without the training course?
		
Click to expand...

You can legally

Check out post number 1000 in this thread for what is required on test and check out the link for the DSA vehicle and trailer test requirements


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## Victoria25 (4 March 2013)

So Id need to fit my car with another interior mirror and get someone to come with me to the test centre (with my trailer)? Id be taking the L200 and the Cheval trailer?


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## ROG (4 March 2013)

Victoria25 said:



			So Id need to fit my car with another interior mirror and get someone to come with me to the test centre (with my trailer)? Id be taking the L200 and the Cheval trailer?
		
Click to expand...

YES you could

Most that fail the test do so out on the road by not driving as the DSA want you to


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## ROG (4 March 2013)

Extra EXTERIOR MIRRORS (one each side) for examiner not interior

Interior mirrors not much good when all you can see with them is the trailer


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## Victoria25 (4 March 2013)

Are they the ones that extend your exiting existing mirrors? 

Ive been practising with the trailer and doing really well - are they different driving rules to that of a normal car driving test? ie asking speed limits, etc or will they be questions about the trailer only?


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## ROG (4 March 2013)

Victoria25 said:



			Are they the ones that extend your exiting existing mirrors? 

Ive been practising with the trailer and doing really well - are they different driving rules to that of a normal car driving test? ie asking speed limits, etc or will they be questions about the trailer only?
		
Click to expand...

Same as car test in general

The 5 questions at the start can relate to any part of the set up - they are listed in post 1000

The mirrors are usually clip mirrors which are extra to the ones already there but do not obscure the originals - bit like caravan towing mirrors


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## Victoria25 (4 March 2013)

Thanks ROG, greatly appreciated, I watched the video you posted  my friend is a driving instructor so was going to perhaps have a refresher lesson to cover basics before taking the test.


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## mischamoo (4 March 2013)

Hi ROG, in relation to my posts 967-969, I just thought I'd update you as I've just received the following info from Ifor Williams about down plating the new HB403 (single trailer) which I enquired into buying to tow with my freelander. I was looking for them to down plate it by 200kg from 1600kg to 1400kg to accomodate my B licence towing regs of 3.5ton however they've informed me that they now cannot downplate new trailers as they come with a EU certificate of Conformity and the trailers cannot change from the spec they were built with. However, used trailers, so in my case, the older model of the HB403 which is the HB401, can be down plated still. Just thought it might help others out there in case they look to downplate the new HB403 model.


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## ROG (4 March 2013)

mischamoo said:



			Hi ROG, in relation to my posts 967-969, I just thought I'd update you as I've just received the following info from Ifor Williams about down plating the new HB403 (single trailer) which I enquired into buying to tow with my freelander. I was looking for them to down plate it by 200kg from 1600kg to 1400kg to accomodate my B licence towing regs of 3.5ton however they've informed me that they now cannot downplate new trailers as they come with a EU certificate of Conformity and the trailers cannot change from the spec they were built with. However, used trailers, so in my case, the older model of the HB403 which is the HB401, can be down plated still. Just thought it might help others out there in case they look to downplate the new HB403 model.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for that

I will have to contact other trailer manufacturers and see if they say the same


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## noodle_ (4 March 2013)

can i ask

is there ANY estate cars which are safe to pull a bog standard trailer (such as an ifor)???

horse in question will max out around 15.2 if im very lucky!... but shes a lightweight sports horse type and will only ever be the one towed.

i really cant justify a 4x4....but want to be safe!

thanks


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## ROG (4 March 2013)

noodle_ said:



			can i ask

is there ANY estate cars which are safe to pull a bog standard trailer (such as an ifor)???

horse in question will max out around 15.2 if im very lucky!... but shes a lightweight sports horse type and will only ever be the one towed.

i really cant justify a 4x4....but want to be safe!

thanks 

Click to expand...

There are loads that will tow safely but unless they are 4x4 you will find that you are somewhat resticted to good solid ground

You need one with at least a 1500 kg towing capacity from the info you have given

If intending to tow on a B licence then other factors will come into play


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## noodle_ (4 March 2013)

thanks 

im a bit confused about licences... im 24, so on the "youngsters" licence   do i have to take another test to tow anything??


i did look into this a while ago.... but got utterly baffled so sadly switched off 

i like the volvo estate (i have dogs and need a bigger car)...love the mazda 6 estate and not looked into any more yet - i would consider a 4x 4 but only towing once a week dosent make it viable....current car drinks £40 a week in fuel from runs :/


----------



## ROG (4 March 2013)

noodle_ said:



			thanks 

im a bit confused about licences... im 24, so on the "youngsters" licence   do i have to take another test to tow anything??


i did look into this a while ago.... but got utterly baffled so sadly switched off 

i like the volvo estate (i have dogs and need a bigger car)...love the mazda 6 estate and not looked into any more yet - i would consider a 4x 4 but only towing once a week dosent make it viable....current car drinks £40 a week in fuel from runs :/
		
Click to expand...

Apart from needing a decent towing capacity which I guess to be about 1500 then you need to comply to these simple rules for B licence towing

The vehicle GVW added to the trailer plated MAM must not add up to more than 3500 kgs
The trailer plated MAM must not be more than the vehicle kerbweight

MAM = the maximum the trailer can be when fully loaded
GVW = the maximum the vehicle can be when fully loaded
KERBWEIGHT = the weight of the vehicle when empty


----------



## noodle_ (4 March 2013)

thank you 

will go research some cars and trailers and give you a bell to check i will be legal before i buy


----------



## Victoria25 (4 March 2013)

ROG, do you have any examples of vehicles/trailer combinations  that you could drive on a normal b licence?


----------



## ROG (4 March 2013)

Victoria25 said:



			ROG, do you have any examples of vehicles/trailer combinations  that you could drive on a normal b licence?
		
Click to expand...

see post number 999 of this thread


----------



## Victoria25 (5 March 2013)

Suzuki vitara (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Kerb = 1400
GVW = 1950
Towing = 1850
Max trailer plated MAM = 1400 kgs

If I got this ROG ... would I be able to downplate my Cheval Liberte 2004 from 2000 to 1400? What does downplating actually mean? x


----------



## Victoria25 (5 March 2013)

Ive seen a Vitara with the following: 

Kerb = 1445
GVW = 1800
Towing = 1600 

Would I be able to downplate my Cheval Liberte 2004 (2000kgs) to say 1445? Would I then be able to drive this on a b license? One horse only. x


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## ROG (5 March 2013)

Victoria25 said:



			Suzuki vitara (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
Kerb = 1400
GVW = 1950
Towing = 1850
Max trailer plated MAM = 1400 kgs

If I got this ROG ... would I be able to downplate my Cheval Liberte 2004 from 2000 to 1400? What does downplating actually mean? x
		
Click to expand...

Yes you can down plate it

That simply involves cantacting Cheval Liberte and then taking it to one of their dealers - cost is usually little or nothing






Victoria25 said:



			Ive seen a Vitara with the following: 

Kerb = 1445
GVW = 1800
Towing = 1600 

Would I be able to downplate my Cheval Liberte 2004 (2000kgs) to say 1445? Would I then be able to drive this on a b license? One horse only. x
		
Click to expand...

YES 


You're getting the hang of this


----------



## Victoria25 (5 March 2013)

Woopeeeee, haha, think Im getting the hang of this with your help ;0) x


----------



## Victoria25 (5 March 2013)

What do they physically do to the trailer to downplate it? Or is it just something that says youre only towing x weight?


----------



## ROG (5 March 2013)

Victoria25 said:



			What do they physically do to the trailer to downplate it? Or is it just something that says youre only towing x weight?
		
Click to expand...

A trailer should have a plate on it which is usually silver in colour

On that plate is has the unladen or empty weight and the MAM weight which is the maximum it can legally weigh when fully loaded

When down plated the plate is removed and replaced with a new one

That new one will have the same unladen weight on it but the MAM weight will be lower so that means it can legally weigh less when fully loaded


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## Victoria25 (5 March 2013)

Ahh OK, so could I keep the old one and replace it if/when I tow with the L200 and need to tow two horses (with another older person in with me that has B&E license)? x


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## ROG (5 March 2013)

Victoria25 said:



			Ahh OK, so could I keep the old one and replace it if/when I tow with the L200 and need to tow two horses (with another older person in with me that has B&E license)? x
		
Click to expand...

Once it is down plated then you must go throught the same process to get it up-plated

You cannot interchange between plates at will


----------



## Victoria25 (5 March 2013)

Ok, thats fine - really helpful knowing all this ROG. 

One last one - a Land rover freelander: 

GVW - 2040 
max tow weight - 1800
kerb weight -1457

Again if I get trailer to mam 1445 ... will this be ok on b license? 

Im assuming 2040 plus 1445 - 3485 (less than 3500)
1445 is less than the 1457?


----------



## ROG (5 March 2013)

Victoria25 said:



			Ok, thats fine - really helpful knowing all this ROG. 

One last one - a Land rover freelander: 

GVW - 2040 
max tow weight - 1800
kerb weight -1457

Again if I get trailer to mam 1445 ... will this be ok on b license? 

Im assuming 2040 plus 1445 - 3485 (less than 3500)
1445 is less than the 1457?
		
Click to expand...

Dear site members,
I am going to give up answering posts on this thread and leave it up to the new kid on the block called *Victoria25*


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## Victoria25 (5 March 2013)

hahahaha .. so sorry for all the questions, just in middle of changing my car and possibly taking trailer test so now theres an option of me not taking the test - opened up a whole new world!


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## ROG (5 March 2013)

Victoria25 said:



			hahahaha .. so sorry for all the questions, just in middle of changing my car and possibly taking trailer test so now theres an option of me not taking the test - opened up a whole new world! 

Click to expand...

Taking the B+E test would open up loads more options and will be needed if you ever need to tow two horses

Passing that test lasts for life ..... well, as long as the car (B) licence remains valid


----------



## ROG (6 March 2013)

Originally Posted by mischamoo  
Hi ROG, in relation to my posts 967-969, I just thought I'd update you as I've just received the following info from Ifor Williams about down plating the new HB403 (single trailer) which I enquired into buying to tow with my freelander. I was looking for them to down plate it by 200kg from 1600kg to 1400kg to accomodate my B licence towing regs of 3.5ton however they've informed me that they now cannot downplate new trailers as they come with a EU certificate of Conformity and the trailers cannot change from the spec they were built with. However, used trailers, so in my case, the older model of the HB403 which is the HB401, can be down plated still. Just thought it might help others out there in case they look to downplate the new HB403 model.
		
Click to expand...




ROG said:



			Thank you for that

I will have to contact other trailer manufacturers and see if they say the same
		
Click to expand...

I have called 3 manufacturers and got different responses on this issue

IFOR state that a trailer made after Oct 2012 cannot be downplated

BATESON state that a trailer made after Oct 2012 can be downplated as long as it remains in the UK but would need to go back to its original plate if going outside UK because the rest of the EU has trailer registraion rules

CHEVAL state that they know nothing about this issue

It seems as though the directive can be interpereted in more than one way

At the moment it looks like IFOR are going to miss out on new sales for B licence towers


----------



## mischamoo (6 March 2013)

ROG said:



			I have called 3 manufacturers and got different responses on this issue

IFOR state that a trailer made after Oct 2012 cannot be downplated

BATESON state that a trailer made after Oct 2012 can be downplated as long as it remains in the UK but would need to go back to its original plate if going outside UK because the rest of the EU has trailer registraion rules

CHEVAL state that they know nothing about this issue

It seems as though the directive can be interpereted in more than one way

At the moment it looks like IFOR are going to miss out on new sales for B licence towers
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying and yes indeed it looks like IFOR will miss out on new sales for B licence towers as it's just not possible to tow a trailer with a MAM of 1600kg and be within the 3500kg restriction. In that case I may now settle for a nice Cheval Liberte Gold One Pullman and downplate from 1600kg to 1400kg having spoken with the manufacturers


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## ROG (6 March 2013)

I just called and had a very nice chat with EQUITREK trailers

Their take is that a new trailer made after October 2012 needs type approval but that approval can include various MAM weights for the trailer

This type approval is only kept at the manufacturers of each trailer so there in no national database for the authorities to check with if stopped at the roadside - the only way is for them to check is to contact the manufacturer with the trailer serial number

The rest of Europe on the other hand has all their trailers registered like their vehicles so the info is readily available on a database

Where compulsory trailer checks etc are concerned for trailers not more than 3500 kgs MAM we are the only EU country that has ..... nothing


----------



## MSS (7 March 2013)

Does anyone know if there is a way to raise your towbar? I have VW transporter that has been lowered and that means that the towbar is little low for my Ifor Williams... Any help would be much appriciated!


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## Beetlebug (8 March 2013)

Hi Rog,

Can you check if this is legal,

B&E licence 
Car freelander, 
gross weight of car 2080kg 
max towing weight 1800kg
Kerb weight min 1619kg

Trailer ifor Williams 505
Gross weight 2340kg
Unladen weight 905kg

Horse weight 500kg

Many thanks


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## ROG (8 March 2013)

Beetlebug said:



			Hi Rog,

Can you check if this is legal,

*B&E licence* 
Car freelander, 
gross weight of car 2080kg 
*max towing weight 1800kg*
Kerb weight min 1619kg

Trailer ifor Williams 505
*Gross weight 2340kg*
Unladen weight 905kg

Horse weight 500kg

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

You have a B+E so the lower of the weights in blue are used which in this case is 1800
1800 minus 905 = 895 for the load/horse in the trailer

Perfectly legal and safe for a single 500 kgs horse  with almost 40 kgs to spare


----------



## Beetlebug (8 March 2013)

Thank you Rog


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## tinap (9 March 2013)

Rog need your help urgently!!

Can I tow an Ifor 510 classic (1000kg ish empty)  with a ford Mondeo 2ltr which has a towing capacity of 1800kg? Horse weights approx 500kg. 

I have B& E licence. Being told I won't be legal as mam on trailer says 2700kg but that is double dutch to me!!!

Cheers xx


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## ROG (9 March 2013)

tinap said:



			Rog need your help urgently!!

Can I tow an Ifor 510 classic (1000kg ish empty)  with a ford Mondeo 2ltr which has a towing capacity of 1800kg? Horse weights approx 500kg. 

I have B& E licence. Being told I won't be legal as mam on trailer says 2700kg but that is double dutch to me!!!

Cheers xx
		
Click to expand...

Some numpties believe an internet myth that the plated MAM of a trailer cannot exceed the towing capacity of the vehicle

If anyone says this to you then ask them under what law they are alluding to

As long as the actual weight of the trailer and its load does not exceed 1800 then you have followed the non legal guidelines of the vehicle manufacturer


----------



## tinap (9 March 2013)

Thank you so much!! That is exactly as I thought!! I really need to get a towbar on my own car to avoid these chuffin myths!! Xx


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## skye_and_i (11 March 2013)

Hi guys and gals,

Just a request for you all to check your lorries and towing vehicles for their towing eyes. Familiarise yourself with where they are, that they have a pin and are not seized in or obstructed by fancy bullbars or spotlights. If you have a screw in type eye make sure you know where it goes, where its kept and that its actually with the vehicle. If in doubt phone the manufacture. Its not much fun laying in the mud in the dark and rain/snow trying to find somewhere safe to attach the tow chain and it takes up valuable time when 2 others could have been towed off in the messing about taken 

Thank you.


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## surreyhorsechick (14 March 2013)

Hi there!

I currently tow with a Honda CR-V 2.0 i-VTEC. I have one 15HH horse of 450kg and own an old Rice Europa with wooden floor.

My question is: I need to sell my beloved 4x4 as I can no longer justify the fuel costs when I only tow the trailer once or twice a year! I am looking to get an economical diesel estate or similar. Any suggestions???

Rice Europa:
Unladen weight - 850kg
Laden weight - 2000kg
Capacity -  1150kg

Many thanks!


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## mischamoo (14 March 2013)

Hi ROG, 

Am back again! After nearly purchasing a Freelander to tow a single trailer on my B license, I've been persuaded into taking the trailer part of my licence thus enabling me to tow 2 horse trailer and driving a larger 4X4!

So am going view a Kia Sorento 2.5 CRDi XS Automatic at the weekend with these specs:

Gross vehicle weight 2600 kg  
Max towing weight 2800 kg   
Minimum kerb weight 2059 kg 

Would this be capable of towing an: 
Ifor 505
Max gross weight 2340kg 
Unlaiden weight 905.00 kg 

or 

Ifor 510:
Max gross weight 2584kg 
Unlaiden weight 1000.00kg 

with a 480kg horse and a 600kg horse?


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## ROG (14 March 2013)

surreyhorsechick said:



			Hi there!

I currently tow with a Honda CR-V 2.0 i-VTEC. I have one 15HH horse of 450kg and own an old Rice Europa with wooden floor.

My question is: I need to sell my beloved 4x4 as I can no longer justify the fuel costs when I only tow the trailer once or twice a year! I am looking to get an economical diesel estate or similar. Any suggestions???

Rice Europa:
Unladen weight - 850kg
Laden weight - 2000kg
Capacity -  1150kg

Many thanks!
		
Click to expand...

You might be better asking in the tack room forum for such and simply stating that it needs a towing capacity of 1500 as that is 200 over what you require (850+450=1300)


----------



## ROG (14 March 2013)

mischamoo said:



			Hi ROG, 

Am back again! After nearly purchasing a Freelander to tow a single trailer on my B license, I've been persuaded into taking the trailer part of my licence thus enabling me to tow 2 horse trailer and driving a larger 4X4!

So am going view a Kia Sorento 2.5 CRDi XS Automatic at the weekend with these specs:

Gross vehicle weight 2600 kg  
*Max towing weight 2800 kg* 
Minimum kerb weight 2059 kg 

Would this be capable of towing an: 
Ifor 505
*Max gross weight 2340kg *
*Unlaiden weight 905.00 kg *

or 

Ifor 510:
Max gross weight 2584kg 
*Unlaiden weight 1000.00kg *

*with a 480kg horse and a 600kg horse*?
		
Click to expand...

lets say 1100 for horses and 1000 for trailer = 2100 plus 100 for other bits = 2200

using the lowest weight of 2340 minus 2200 leaves 140 spare


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## mischamoo (14 March 2013)

ROG said:



			lets say 1100 for horses and 1000 for trailer = 2100 plus 100 for other bits = 2200

using the lowest weight of 2340 minus 2200 leaves 140 spare
		
Click to expand...


Thanks ROG and am assuming this is all legal on a B+E license?


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## ROG (14 March 2013)

mischamoo said:



			Thanks ROG and am assuming this is all legal on a B+E license?
		
Click to expand...

Oh yes 

B+E is much simpler than B ....

Get the vehicle towing capacity and the trailer plated MAM 
Use the lower of the two and that is your limit for the empty trailer and its load

Easy aint it !!


----------



## mischamoo (14 March 2013)

ROG said:



			Oh yes 

B+E is much simpler than B ....

Get the vehicle towing capacity and the trailer plated MAM 
Use the lower of the two and that is your limit for the empty trailer and its load

Easy aint it !!
		
Click to expand...

Yes much simpler! Great, many thanks indeed! Will enjoy test driving a few this weekend!


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## DragonSlayer (18 March 2013)

Hi ROG!

We are currently converting a LWB Mini-bus into a camper. As well as using it for camping, it'll be used for towing the trailer when I'm on a Trec event as I prefer this than to a tent (means I can stay right next to my horse's corral without the risk of being run over in the night by a stampede and of course tents not allowed where the 'osses are)

Anyway, I have the pre-1997 licence so until it's done and we send the documents and pictures of the change to the DVLA it'll be an air-bed on the floor! 

I imagine the weight is OK, bring a 3.5 tonne vehicle, it's a Peugeot Boxer, Hitop and LWB.

I'll be towing a 510 IW with two 'osses in it from time to time, but generally it'll be just the one.

We know we are well within the limits when towing with the 4x4 we have, so am I safe to assume this meaty van will be just the same?

Cheers!

DS

PS - Insurance has all been sorted too...


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## ROG (18 March 2013)

DragonSlayer said:



			Hi ROG!

We are currently converting a LWB Mini-bus into a camper. As well as using it for camping, it'll be used for towing the trailer when I'm on a Trec event as I prefer this than to a tent (means I can stay right next to my horse's corral without the risk of being run over in the night by a stampede and of course tents not allowed where the 'osses are)

Anyway, I have the pre-1997 licence so until it's done and we send the documents and pictures of the change to the DVLA it'll be an air-bed on the floor! 

I imagine the weight is OK, bring a 3.5 tonne vehicle, it's a Peugeot Boxer, Hitop and LWB.

I'll be towing a 510 IW with two 'osses in it from time to time, but generally it'll be just the one.

We know we are well within the limits when towing with the 4x4 we have, so am I safe to assume this meaty van will be just the same?

Cheers!

DS

PS - Insurance has all been sorted too...
		
Click to expand...

I think the towing capacity is 2000 for that vehicle but to be sure please find the plate on the vehicle that gives the GVW and GTW

GTW minus GVW is usually the towing capacity

Your B+E licence is ok for this as the vehicle is not over 3500 kgs GVW


----------



## mischamoo (18 March 2013)

Me again ROG, sorry! Just in the process of sorting out my car insurance for my new 4x4. Do I need to declare to the insurance company or obtain some form of "learner" insurance that covers me with my "L" plates on the vehicle and trailer while on the road to tow with my father (who has the B&E licence) sat next to me? Do I need to declare to them that I I'm learning to tow in the car?!


----------



## ROG (18 March 2013)

mischamoo said:



			Me again ROG, sorry! Just in the process of sorting out my car insurance for my new 4x4. Do I need to declare to the insurance company or obtain some form of "learner" insurance that covers me with my "L" plates on the vehicle and trailer while on the road to tow with my father (who has the B&E licence) sat next to me? Do I need to declare to them that I I'm learning to tow in the car?!
		
Click to expand...

All insurers have different policies but in most cases all the driver has to do is inform them of what they are doing and incur no extra cost

Only anyone driving it needs insurance so a supervising driver who is not driving it does not need to be insured


----------



## horsesatemymoney (19 March 2013)

Hi ROG,

Very confused! 

B licence

Peugeot 306 1.9 diesel estate
Curb weight 1155kg
GVW 1630kg
Max towing weight 1200KG

Rice Richardson trailer 
unladen 980kg
max gross weight 2300kg

Thanks! (Horse 500kg max)


----------



## Victoria25 (19 March 2013)

I think the vehicle GVW plus the trailer max load must be less than 3500 in a B license? 

Then the max weight of trailer must not be more than the vehicle kerb weight? 

Could be wrong though? x


----------



## ROG (19 March 2013)

horsesatemymoney said:



			Hi ROG,

Very confused! 

B licence

Peugeot 306 1.9 diesel estate
Curb weight 1155kg
GVW 1630kg
Max towing weight 1200KG

Rice Richardson trailer 
unladen 980kg
max gross weight 2300kg

Thanks! (Horse 500kg max)
		
Click to expand...

This would be impossible for a number of reasons ....

980+500=1480 so well over 1200

1630+2300=3930 which is over the B licence limit of 3500

2300 is more than 1155 which breaks the other B licence towing rule because the trailer MAM must not be more than the vehicle kerbweight

You could contact the manufacturer and have the trailer downplated to 1155 but that would only leave 175 kgs for the horse/load !! (1155-980=175)


----------



## ROG (19 March 2013)

Victoria25 said:



			I think the vehicle GVW plus the trailer max load must be less than 3500 in a B license? 

Then the max weight of trailer must not be more than the vehicle kerb weight? 

Could be wrong though? x
		
Click to expand...

You aint wrong


----------



## SARAHSALLYRUBY (19 March 2013)

Hi ya

Ive just posted in the other forum then found this very useful thread!

If i could ask for some help please

Im thinking of towing with a Ford Mondeo estate 2 litre tdi

Towing an ifor williams 505 with a 550kg horse on board

Is this legal with the B and E license?

In anyones opinion, would this vehicle be capable of towing this weight?

Thank you


----------



## ROG (19 March 2013)

SARAHSALLYRUBY said:



			Hi ya

Ive just posted in the other forum then found this very useful thread!

If i could ask for some help please

Im thinking of towing with a Ford Mondeo estate 2 litre tdi

Towing an ifor williams 505 with a 550kg horse on board

Is this legal with the B and E license?

In anyones opinion, would this vehicle be capable of towing this weight?

Thank you
		
Click to expand...

Ah good, you have B+E so that makes things easy 

I think the Mondeo has a towing capacity of 1800 kgs but please check that for your model

If it is 1800 then with a trailer unladen weight of 900 and a load/horse of 550 it makes 1450 so well within the 1800 limit

Towing with a non 4x4 means you will have to very careful what sort of surfaces you tow it on as they will likely need to be solid ones


----------



## horsesatemymoney (19 March 2013)

ROG said:



			This would be impossible for a number of reasons ....

980+500=1480 so well over 1200

1630+2300=3930 which is over the B licence limit of 3500

2300 is more than 1155 which breaks the other B licence towing rule because the trailer MAM must not be more than the vehicle kerbweight

You could contact the manufacturer and have the trailer downplated to 1155 but that would only leave 175 kgs for the horse/load !! (1155-980=175)
		
Click to expand...

Thank you! I might go back to my original plan, with a 3.5 box, but before I do, I have seen a Suzuki rav4 for sale, I know you mentioned that was a good option, would it work with that trailer? Sorry for all the questions!


----------



## ROG (19 March 2013)

horsesatemymoney said:



			Thank you! I might go back to my original plan, with a 3.5 box, but before I do, I have seen a Suzuki rav4 for sale, I know you mentioned that was a good option, would it work with that trailer? Sorry for all the questions!
		
Click to expand...

Unlikely to work as the trailer unladen weight is too high

You need a trailer which weighs about 800 kgs max when empty


----------



## horsesatemymoney (19 March 2013)

ROG said:



			Unlikely to work as the trailer unladen weight is too high

You need a trailer which weighs about 800 kgs max when empty
		
Click to expand...

Thanks- I'll stick to the box!  I would look at doing the B&E test, but I've nobody to drive the trailer in the meantime! Cheers


----------



## ROG (19 March 2013)

horsesatemymoney said:



			Thanks- I'll stick to the box!  I would look at doing the B&E test, but I've nobody to drive the trailer in the meantime! Cheers
		
Click to expand...

Do you have 'access' to a 'granny' with a B+E on their licence who can sit as a supervising driver next to you ?


----------



## Princess P (20 March 2013)

At the weekend someone told me that there is talk of removing grandfather rights for B+E and lorries over 3.5t - to drive as well as supervise.

Has anyone else heard about this? Is it true?!

There will be a lot of people affected if it is true!


----------



## ROG (20 March 2013)

Princess P said:



			At the weekend someone told me that there is talk of removing grandfather rights for B+E and lorries over 3.5t - to drive as well as supervise.

Has anyone else heard about this? Is it true?!

There will be a lot of people affected if it is true!
		
Click to expand...

Oh great ... another myth in the making ....

If this was to be the case then proposals & consultations would need to be done first and none have been

It would also be a vote loser for any Govt that tried it


----------



## Princess P (20 March 2013)

Phew!

The person who told me must have been mistaken!


----------



## ROG (20 March 2013)

Princess P said:



			Phew!

The person who told me must have been mistaken!
		
Click to expand...

If anybody comes up with this sort of thing them always ask them where they got it from - chances are it was from another who also has no idea !!


----------



## horsesatemymoney (21 March 2013)

Hi ROG there's a good few people, but none willing haha !


----------



## Lami (29 March 2013)

Hi Rog,
Can i run this by you please? Am considering buying this:

Nissan xtrail Dci 173 Tekna 2010 plate, manual.

1. Passed test 1989
2. Unladen 1615kg
3. GVW 2170kg
4. GTW (is this the max trailer weight braked?) 2200
5. Plated mam of trailer HB506 2600
6. unladen trailer 920

Or would consider single trailer as would be carrying one horse upto 550kg
5. 1600
6. 767

If im correct the hb506 loaded would be too heavy?

Many thanks. Need a new car and eventually trailer so just looking at my options.


----------



## CracklinRosie (29 March 2013)

Fairly sure this is all legal but just checking!

1. B+E
2. 2045kg
3. 2550kg
4. 3300kg
5. 3500kg
6.1595

Will only be used to carry a 800 kilo horse on his own.


----------



## ROG (29 March 2013)

Lami said:



			Hi Rog,
Can i run this by you please? Am considering buying this:

Nissan xtrail Dci 173 Tekna 2010 plate, manual.

1. *Passed test 1989*
2. Unladen 1615kg
3. GVW 2170kg
4. GTW (is this *the max trailer weight braked?) 2200*
5. Plated *mam of trailer HB506 2600*
6. *unladen trailer 920*

Or would consider single trailer as would be carrying one horse upto 550kg
5. 1600
6. 767

If im correct the hb506 loaded would be too heavy?

Many thanks. Need a new car and eventually trailer so just looking at my options.
		
Click to expand...

You have a B+E because passed car test before 1997

2200 and 2600 - the lower is 2200 
2200 minus 920 = 1280 so the trailer can be loaded with 1280 kgs


----------



## ROG (29 March 2013)

CracklinRosie said:



			Fairly sure this is all legal but just checking!

1. B+E
2. 2045kg
3. 2550kg
4. 3300kg
5. 3500kg
6.1595

Will only be used to carry a 800 kilo horse on his own.
		
Click to expand...

3300 and 3500 so the lower 3300 is used
3300 minus 1595 = 1705
Trailer can be loaded with 1705 kgs


----------



## Lami (30 March 2013)

ROG said:



			You have a B+E because passed car test before 1997

2200 and 2600 - the lower is 2200 
2200 minus 920 = 1280 so the trailer can be loaded with 1280 kgs
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ROG. Really helpful info. I am surprised by the weight I could potentially tow as the xtrail isnt heavy compared to some 4x4. Its still on my list of potential buys.


----------



## SARAHSALLYRUBY (31 March 2013)

Hi all.

 As i have now decided, after advice from ROG, thank you, an estate car will prob get stuck in grassy ground etc, so im going to have to go for a landrover and a trailer.
What mpg can i expect from towing a ifor 505 and 1 550kg horse.
Will only really be local shows, within 20ish miles of home.

And should i really stick to an older landrover, ive heard post r reg are the ones to steer clear of?

Thank you


----------



## ROG (31 March 2013)

SARAHSALLYRUBY said:



			Hi all.

 As i have now decided, after advice from ROG, thank you, an estate car will prob get stuck in grassy ground etc, so im going to have to go for a landrover and a trailer.
What mpg can i expect from towing a ifor 505 and 1 550kg horse.
Will only really be local shows, within 20ish miles of home.

And should i really stick to an older landrover, ive heard post r reg are the ones to steer clear of?

Thank you
		
Click to expand...

For information on a particular vehicle you might get more responses from posting in the tack room forum


----------



## SARAHSALLYRUBY (31 March 2013)

Thank you


----------



## crystalclear (2 April 2013)

ROG, I'm not sure if his has been covered on this thread as it is very long (and I think we should do a poll on this so that information is easily found and viewable) but which vehicle do you recommend not only to tow a 510 and two 500kg horses (I added a bit more weight on them to be super legal) but also one that is reliable? I have my B+E test. Thank you


----------



## ROG (2 April 2013)

crystalclear said:



			ROG, I'm not sure if his has been covered on this thread as it is very long (and I think we should do a poll on this so that information is easily found and viewable) but which vehicle do you recommend not only to tow a 510 and two 500kg horses (I added a bit more weight on them to be super legal) but also one that is reliable? I have my B+E test. Thank you 

Click to expand...

There are so many vehicles capable of towing certain weights that there will never be a definitive answer to your question

I did the only realistic thing that was possible and that was to ask members to rate their current towing set ups out of 10
The results of that are in the last link in my signature below


----------



## noodle_ (2 April 2013)

*waves*

hi....


test passed; 2005...so on B licence only....  nicked the weights from a site so hope its right!?

ok so 2 cars in the running.....both estates.....VW golf estate 1.9 and mazda 6 - 2 litre i believe.... (2005-2008 depending on price)....

golf kerb weight -
Weight (unladen): 1361 kg
Loaded Weight (kg): 1990 kg
Maximum Towing Weight (Braked): 1400 kg
Maximum Towing Weight (Unbraked): 710 kg
Maximum Load (Kg): 629 kg



mazda 6 kerb weight - 1500kg



Im trying so hard to understand if i would be legal or not.......i frankly dont care what estate i drive - i just want to be legal.....

ive looked at the cheval liberte? they seem the most lightweigh - but also the ifor williams 505 is more realistic price wise??


pony will probably max out at 450kg  - im working on 500kg just so i can have a little bit of give....for tack etc... and id rather have room to play than room for a fine!!!




ets - can you please explain to me what braked/unbraked means so i can stand a chance of working out what i can tow with..... i wish someone would take me shopping and point and i buy  lol!!

thanks


----------



## ROG (3 April 2013)

noodle_ said:



			B licence only....  
golf 
Weight (unladen): 1361 kg
Loaded Weight (kg): 1990 kg
Maximum Towing Weight (Braked): 1400 kg

ive looked at the cheval liberte? they seem the most lightweigh - but also the ifor williams 505 is more realistic price wise??


pony will probably max out at 450kg  - im working on 500kg just so i can have a little bit of give....for tack etc... and id rather have room to play than room for a fine!!!

 can you please explain to me what braked/unbraked means
		
Click to expand...

Trailers not more than 750 kgs plated MAM are not required to have over-run brakes - any trailer for a horse will have over-run brakes

Using the weights for the GOLF.....
The maximum plated trailer weight can be 1361kgs
Needing 500 kgs of load space means a trailer not more than 850 kgs unladen

In most cases you will need to contact the traler manufacturer to get the trailer plated weight lowered - free or little cost

A read of post numbers 999 and 1000 may help you understand


----------



## noodle_ (3 April 2013)

thanks 

im seriously considerng banging my head against a wall and buying a 3.5 ton movano lorry and using that as my daily car too........... i just cannot afford to buy the wrong car as im getting finance on a new trailer.

i can get a cheval liberte? which is under 800kg unladen so that should be ok

ifor i think is too heavy...

*goes off to go check out more baffling info  *


thanks ROG


----------



## ROG (3 April 2013)

noodle_ said:



			thanks 

im seriously considerng banging my head against a wall and buying a 3.5 ton movano lorry and using that as my daily car too........... i just cannot afford to buy the wrong car as im getting finance on a new trailer.

i can get a cheval liberte? which is under 800kg unladen so that should be ok

ifor i think is too heavy...

*goes off to go check out more baffling info  *


thanks ROG   

Click to expand...

Put the weight details of any set up you are considering on here and I will let you know if it works for you


----------



## noodle_ (3 April 2013)

thanks 

its most likely a 1.9 golf....

from 2004-2009 id say....estate/.... towing a 450kg pony (max out being realistic as shes tiny  )


and ANY type of trailer that will tow her - im getting a graduate loan to buy it (naughty i know...) but i want it safe...but small (Except single boxes as ive heard they arnt as safe?)


but would be interested to know what you think of single trailers/boxes??

somthing like 
GT2 Compact
A lightweight trailer perfect for carrying two ponies or small horses up to 16hh. Easy to handle and tow, this trailer is perfect for any horse owner.

http://www.chevalhorsetrailers.co.uk/gt2-compact


would probably do the trick???  light enough as i onyl ever want to tow my pony who will not get any bigger than 15hh!


----------



## ROG (3 April 2013)

noodle_ said:



			thanks 

its most likely a 1.9 golf....

from 2004-2009 id say....estate/.... towing a 450kg pony (max out being realistic as shes tiny  )


and ANY type of trailer that will tow her - im getting a graduate loan to buy it (naughty i know...) but i want it safe...but small (Except single boxes as ive heard they arnt as safe?)


but would be interested to know what you think of single trailers/boxes??

somthing like 
GT2 Compact
A lightweight trailer perfect for carrying two ponies or small horses up to 16hh. Easy to handle and tow, this trailer is perfect for any horse owner.

http://www.chevalhorsetrailers.co.uk/gt2-compact


would probably do the trick???  light enough as i onyl ever want to tow my pony who will not get any bigger than 15hh!
		
Click to expand...

That trailer looks fine - many on here use single horse trailers without incidents

Cannot help with different types of vehicle as I have never used them but can help with the legal side of things if weights are given


----------



## noodle_ (3 April 2013)

thanks - off to carcraft next week to have a look round at what i want...make a note...theyn buy elsewhere 

will come back to you with final weights.... im rather set on that trailer as its the lightest one i can see on the market...and fine for my pony - side for her - side for "tack room"... 

Thanks again


----------



## ROG (3 April 2013)

noodle_ said:



			thanks - off to carcraft next week to have a look round at what i want...make a note...theyn buy elsewhere 

will come back to you with final weights.... im rather set on that trailer as its the lightest one i can see on the market...and fine for my pony - side for her - side for "tack room"... 

Thanks again 

Click to expand...

We can work this backwards ....
Trailer is 700 unladen and needs to carry 500 so it could be plated as low as 1200

With a 1200 plated trailer the vehicle would need these specs ...
Maximum GVW 2300
Minimum kerbweight 1200
Minimum towing capacity 1200

Make the trailer 1300 plated MAM and the vehicle would need to be ...
Max GVW 2200
Min kerb 1300
Min tow capacity 1300


----------



## noodle_ (3 April 2013)

Thank you ROG  that makes more sense to me!! 

*goes off to carhunt* 


the headache i went to bed last night with was unreal... i was so worked up about getting the wrong one


----------



## ArcticFox (5 April 2013)

Hi Rog

Quick Q - my lorry is about to go into the garage and I have been offered the use of a trailer this weekend. 

could you tell me if its ok?

the car we have:


RAV 4 DIESEL ESTATE 2.2 D-4D XT5 5dr

Trailer:

Ifor williams 511

Horse weight

616kg

Many thanks in advance


----------



## ArcticFox (5 April 2013)

sorry - here is the info I could find:

1. B+E
2. Unladen weight of towing vehicle &#8211; 1640
3. GVW 2190
4. 2000kg
5. MAM 2700kg
6. 1000kg

Is this ok to put one horse on?  I doubt it but thought I'd ask


----------



## ROG (5 April 2013)

ArcticFox said:



			Hi Rog

Quick Q - my lorry is about to go into the garage and I have been offered the use of a trailer this weekend. 

could you tell me if its ok?

the car we have:


RAV 4 DIESEL ESTATE 2.2 D-4D XT5 5dr

Trailer:

Ifor williams 511

Horse weight

616kg

Many thanks in advance
		
Click to expand...

B+E licence required

Vehicle towing capacity 2000 kgs
Trailer MAM 2700
Lower of these two weights is 2000 so that is the one used


Trailer unladen weight 1000 

2000 - 1000 = 1000 kgs 
1000 kgs is what can be loaded into the trailer


----------



## ROG (5 April 2013)

ArcticFox said:



			sorry - here is the info I could find:

1. B+E
2. Unladen weight of towing vehicle  1640
3. GVW 2190
4. 2000kg
5. MAM 2700kg
6. 1000kg

Is this ok to put one horse on?  I doubt it but thought I'd ask
		
Click to expand...

I found exactly the same info on the internet 
HERE
AND HERE


----------



## ArcticFox (5 April 2013)

Brill thanks.

I should then be ok to take the one horse and gear. 

thanks.
cx


----------



## superstarnativepony (7 April 2013)

Hi Rog, thank you for posting on my thread. Please let me know a) the weight I can tow on my own b) the weight I can tow with my mum (has a b+e)

Defender kerb weight 1795kg
Defender braked towing capacity 3500kg
Trailer unladen weight 905kg
Horse 500kg
Thanks for your help!


----------



## superstarnativepony (7 April 2013)

Ps I have a b license- only passed my test in 2008


----------



## ROG (7 April 2013)

superstarnativepony said:



			Hi Rog, thank you for posting on my thread. Please let me know a) the weight I can tow on my own b) the weight I can tow with my mum (has a b+e)

I have a b license- only passed my test in 2008 

Defender kerb weight 1795kg
Defender braked towing capacity 3500kg
Trailer unladen weight 905kg
Horse 500kg
Thanks for your help!
		
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly the defender has a GVW of 2510 kgs which means on a B licence you can only tow a trailer with a max plated MAM of 990 kgs

With your mum as supervising driver you can load the trailer to its max


----------



## HayleyUK (7 April 2013)

Could someone help me work out the maximum towing weight capacity of a 2003 BMW X5 (3.0l/3.0i/3.0sport models) with an ifor williams 510 please? Trying to figure out if its worth buying and if so which model.


----------



## superstarnativepony (7 April 2013)

Thank you Rog, now to find someone to teach me to tow safely!


----------



## ROG (7 April 2013)

HayleyUK said:



			Could someone help me work out the maximum towing weight capacity of a 2003 BMW X5 (3.0l/3.0i/3.0sport models) with an ifor williams 510 please? Trying to figure out if its worth buying and if so which model.
		
Click to expand...

BMW X5 2000-2003 4 x 4 3.0I Sport 5Dr Auto
Maximum Towing Weight (Braked): 2300 kg


----------



## ROG (7 April 2013)

superstarnativepony said:



			Thank you Rog, now to find someone to teach me to tow safely!
		
Click to expand...

If you are in Leics then I could do that for free with expenses covered 

If you want the B+E then its a proper training school needed for the DSA test


----------



## HayleyUK (7 April 2013)

ROG said:



BMW X5 2000-2003 4 x 4 3.0I Sport 5Dr Auto
Maximum Towing Weight (Braked): 2300 kg
		
Click to expand...


Thank you! Does it vary between the sport and non sport variants at all?


----------



## ROG (7 April 2013)

HayleyUK said:



			Thank you! Does it vary between the sport and non sport variants at all?
		
Click to expand...

same 2300 kgs


----------



## ArcticFox (8 April 2013)

Hi ROG

One last question.  OH and I are buying a car to replace his Rav.  I used the rav over the weekend with the borrowed trailer and it towed fine.  Once we get the new car, I'd just like to check that it will be fine to tow with:

Mazda CX5 SportNav. 


1. B+E
2. Unladen weight of towing vehicle  1450
3. GVW 2035
4. 2000kg
5. MAM 2700kg
6. 1000kg
Would this be ok?

Many thanks


----------



## ROG (8 April 2013)

ArcticFox said:



			Hi ROG

One last question.  OH and I are buying a car to replace his Rav.  I used the rav over the weekend with the borrowed trailer and it towed fine.  Once we get the new car, I'd just like to check that it will be fine to tow with:

Mazda CX5 SportNav. 


1. B+E
2. Unladen weight of towing vehicle  1450
3. GVW 2035
4. 2000kg
5. MAM 2700kg
6. 1000kg
Would this be ok?

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

Max load for trailer = 1000 kgs

towing capacity 2000 minus trailer unladen weight 1000 leaves 1000 for trailer load


----------



## winston1988 (8 April 2013)

ROG said:



			Max load for trailer = 1000 kgs

towing capacity 2000 minus trailer unladen weight 1000 leaves 1000 for trailer load
		
Click to expand...

Hi Rog,
I have a vw sharan
 vehicle wt 2510 kg
kerb wt 1814-2020
max permitted trailer wt with brake 2000
max car and trailer 4000kg
I passed my test in 1988

I have an ifor williams trailer unlaiden approx 950kg
and my daughters 14 2 weighs approx 450kg
Am I legal to tow with the sharan?
Kind regards


----------



## ROG (8 April 2013)

winston1988 said:



			Hi Rog,
I have a vw sharan
 vehicle wt 2510 kg
kerb wt 1814-2020
max permitted trailer wt with brake 2000
max car and trailer 4000kg
I passed my test in 1988

I have an ifor williams trailer unlaiden approx 950kg
and my daughters 14 2 weighs approx 450kg
Am I legal to tow with the sharan?
Kind regards
		
Click to expand...

WELCOME

Ignoring the 4000 kg bit because I cannot figure out where that came from ....

You have B+E licence so thats ok
950 + 450 = 1400 so that leaves 600 kgs spare for the trailer to keep within the 2000 towing limit


----------



## Hellenm (11 April 2013)

Hi Rog, could you please help me ??????

I think I need to take the B+E but keep getting different answers ??

I understand the rules have changed again (Jan 13), I wonder if I am still OK to tow with my mother sitting next to me (with L's on) until can take the B+E test)

1 - What licence they hold = B ( passed 1998  )
2 - Unladen weight of the towing vehicle = 1815kg (2001 SWB Nissan Terrano 2.7td)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle = ??
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle = 2800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer = 2340kg (ifor williams 505)
6 - Unladen weight of the trailer = 905kg

I only ever carry one horse (500kg)

Thanks

Leni


----------



## ROG (11 April 2013)

Hellenm said:



			Hi Rog, could you please help me ??????

I think I need to take the B+E but keep getting different answers ??

I understand the rules have changed again (Jan 13), I wonder if I am still OK to tow with my mother sitting next to me (with L's on) until can take the B+E test)

1 - What licence they hold = B ( passed 1998  )
2 - Unladen weight of the towing vehicle = 1815kg (2001 SWB Nissan Terrano 2.7td)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle = ??
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle = 2800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer = 2340kg (ifor williams 505)
6 - Unladen weight of the trailer = 905kg

I only ever carry one horse (500kg)

Thanks

Leni
		
Click to expand...

As a supervised B+E learner you can load 1435 kgs into the trailer
2340-905=1435

You cannot tow this combination under B licence towing rules

The new laws are for those that *passed both B and B+E* after 19/01/2013 
They will be restricted to trailers which are not more than 3500 kgs plated MAM


----------



## Hellenm (11 April 2013)

Thank you very much 

I will continue with my mother and my L plates until I can take the test (hopefully sooner rather than later).

Thanks again.

Leni


----------



## CrazyMare (12 April 2013)

Rog, it appears you cannot be PM-ed

Can you help? I have a Nissan Terrano II SE+ Auto (2.7TDi Intercooler), and a Bateson Ascot (and a herd of ponies, none over 14.2h, none over 500kg)

My Dad has been told that the Nissan Terrano cannot tow my Bateson Ascot even when its empty. Is this correct?

Also, if you are based in Leicester, do you do B+E lessons? I have been struggling to get dates booked with several companies in the Leicester/Loughborough area!


----------



## ROG (12 April 2013)

CrazyMare said:



			Rog, it appears you cannot be PM-ed

Can you help? I have a Nissan Terrano II SE+ Auto (2.7TDi Intercooler), and a Bateson Ascot (and a herd of ponies, none over 14.2h, none over 500kg)

My Dad has been told that the Nissan Terrano cannot tow my Bateson Ascot even when its empty. Is this correct?

Also, if you are based in Leicester, do you do B+E lessons? I have been struggling to get dates booked with several companies in the Leicester/Loughborough area!
		
Click to expand...

B+E lessons and test over 3 half days on 29th 30th april and 1st may for about £650 all inclusive available at http://www.dataacademy.co.uk/be-car-trailer but others are available in this area - I just happen to know the trainers at this place quite well 
I do not work for this company nor do I do training BUT I have done so in the past for other companies and am willing to help for free if my expenses are covered 

1999 Nissan Terrano Ii SE Touring TDi 2.7 5dr - if this is your model then .....
GVW 2580
Kerb 1910
Towing 1700

Ascot Horse Trailer
MAM 2300
Unladen 925

This set up would definitely be under B+E full or provisional licence rules

The max load for the trailer will be 775 kgs (1700-925=775)

If your DAD says not ok empty on a B licence then he is correct

*ALL THIS IS ASSUMING I HAVE THE RIGHT VEHICLE AND TRAILER*


----------



## CrazyMare (13 April 2013)

ROG said:



			B+E lessons and test over 3 half days on 29th 30th april and 1st may for about £650 all inclusive available at http://www.dataacademy.co.uk/be-car-trailer but others are available in this area - I just happen to know the trainers at this place quite well 
I do not work for this company nor do I do training BUT I have done so in the past for other companies and am willing to help for free if my expenses are covered 

1999 Nissan Terrano Ii SE Touring TDi 2.7 5dr - if this is your model then .....
GVW 2580
Kerb 1910
Towing 1700

Ascot Horse Trailer
MAM 2300
Unladen 925

This set up would definitely be under B+E full or provisional licence rules

The max load for the trailer will be 775 kgs (1700-925=775)

If your DAD says not ok empty on a B licence then he is correct

*ALL THIS IS ASSUMING I HAVE THE RIGHT VEHICLE AND TRAILER*

Click to expand...

Thanks Rog, Will looking into Data Academy!

You are correct on the car, and trailer - Dad was informed the Terrano could tow next to nothing, irregardless of licences. It does appear to have less avalible towing weight than we were led to belive at purchase. Looks like it will be for sale again!!!


----------



## avthechav (13 April 2013)

Hi ROG I have a land rover 90 and I am towing 1 horse in an ifor 510

Kerb weight is 1750
Gross weigh 2.5 tonne
Trailer is weighted at 1000

I do not have my b and e licence and so was wondering how much weight I can tow in my trailer before I am illegal.

Any help gratefully received!
Thanks 
Hannah


----------



## ROG (13 April 2013)

avthechav said:



			Hi ROG I have a land rover 90 and I am towing 1 horse in an ifor 510

Kerb weight is 1750
Gross weigh 2.5 tonne
Trailer is weighted at 1000

I do not have my b and e licence and so was wondering how much weight I can tow in my trailer before I am illegal.

Any help gratefully received!
Thanks 
Hannah
		
Click to expand...

Legally, on your own, You can put nothing in that trailer nor can you tow it empty !!

The maximum you can tow is a trailer with plated MAM of 1000kgs behind that vehicle and if that trailer weighed 500 empty then you could put 500 in it

You can tow under supervision on your current B+E provisional


----------



## avthechav (13 April 2013)

ROG said:



			Legally, on your own, You can put nothing in that trailer nor can you tow it empty !!

The maximum you can tow is a trailer with plated MAM of 1000kgs behind that vehicle and if that trailer weighed 500 empty then you could put 500 in it

You can tow under supervision on your current B+E provisional
		
Click to expand...

Brill, thanks for that (just wanted to add that I haven't been towing on my own and have got my test booked!)


----------



## tillsmum (13 April 2013)

Hi 
1. b license
2. 1573
3. 2230
4. ? sorry couldn't find it
5. 1700
6. 610

The vehicle is a 59 Ford Mondeo automatic and my pony only weighs 450kgs not sure if that makes a difference
Thanks the whole towing thing is a nightmare


----------



## ROG (13 April 2013)

tillsmum said:



			Hi 
1. b license
2. 1573
3. 2230
4. ? sorry couldn't find it
5. 1700
6. 610

The vehicle is a 59 Ford Mondeo automatic and my pony only weighs 450kgs not sure if that makes a difference
Thanks the whole towing thing is a nightmare
		
Click to expand...

Trailer needs down plating by contacting its manufacturer from 1700 to 1270(max) which would then leave 660kgs for the load/horse
It will then be legal for B licence towing

Number 4 - the towing capacity - will be around 2000 so thats ok

This will make you laugh .... I saw 59 and thought that car is a bit dated ...... 1959 ... but then I realised you meant a 59 plate


----------



## tillsmum (13 April 2013)

lol thanks for that. Glad to know I don't have to take the stupid test.  happy now


----------



## ROG (13 April 2013)

tillsmum said:



			lol thanks for that. Glad to know I don't have to take the stupid test.  happy now
		
Click to expand...

Which manufacturer made the trailer?


----------



## tillsmum (13 April 2013)

Its a Bateson Derby 44 Pullman I got the onfo for it from the internet but it is a used trailer.


----------



## ROG (13 April 2013)

tillsmum said:



			Its a Bateson Derby 44 Pullman I got the onfo for it from the internet but it is a used trailer.
		
Click to expand...

Bateson are still in business so no probs in having it down plated for little or no cost

Might be a good idea to have the serial number if you can find it

Bateson will advise which of their dealers nearest to you will actually change the plate


----------



## tillsmum (13 April 2013)

Thanks for that. What do you actually mean by down plated. Sorry to be thick


----------



## ROG (13 April 2013)

tillsmum said:



			Thanks for that. What do you actually mean by down plated. Sorry to be thick
		
Click to expand...

At the moment you should have a little silver coloured plate which states it is 1700 kgs MAM somewhere on it - usually on the A frame part between front of the actual box and the towball

That 1700 plate gets a new high figure of say 1250

Empty weight = best taken to a weighbridge to find that out

If it does not have a plate then bateson wil be able to help especially if you have the serial number which is usually in many places on it


----------



## tillsmum (13 April 2013)

Thank you so down plating it would mean that even my husband who has a b + e license wouldn't be able to tow 2 ponies in it. Is that right??? Because the total weight of the trailer plus ponies would be more than the plate weight.


----------



## ROG (14 April 2013)

tillsmum said:



			Thank you so down plating it would mean that even my husband who has a b + e license wouldn't be able to tow 2 ponies in it. Is that right??? Because the total weight of the trailer plus ponies would be more than the plate weight.
		
Click to expand...

Correct

Unfortunately the plating rules do not allow for interchangeable plates without going through the process I described


----------



## Mossi (14 April 2013)

Hi, I want to tow my 14hh Welsh D (approx 430 kg) in a lightweight trailer.  Could I do this with a Nissan Terrano SWB 2.7 manual, a Suzuki Grand Vitara 2 litre Diesel or a Nissan XTrail?  Thanks


----------



## ROG (14 April 2013)

Mossi said:



			Hi, I want to tow my 14hh Welsh D (approx 430 kg) in a lightweight trailer.  Could I do this with a Nissan Terrano SWB 2.7 manual, a Suzuki Grand Vitara 2 litre Diesel or a Nissan XTrail?  Thanks
		
Click to expand...

No probs on a B+E licence but would need more info if on a B licence


----------



## Mossi (15 April 2013)

ROG said:



			No probs on a B+E licence but would need more info if on a B licence
		
Click to expand...

Hi, sorry, I should have been clearer.  I passed my driving test in the early 80s, so no problems with the licence.  I just wondered if it would be considered safe to tow with the combinations I have listed.  Thanks.


----------



## ROG (15 April 2013)

Mossi said:



			I just wondered if it would be considered safe to tow with the combinations I have listed.  Thanks.
		
Click to expand...

I have never towed a horsebox but I see no reason why any of those would not be safe

Have a look through the members vehicle and trailer combinations link in my signature below


----------



## Mossi (16 April 2013)

Ok thanks


----------



## Mike007 (16 April 2013)

I am not familiar with the other two vehicles ,but the short wheelbase Nissan teranno AKA the ford Maverick is not a good towing vehicle. Its handling characteristics make it "not a novice ride"


----------



## Crazydancer (17 April 2013)

Hello, I'm looking at getting myself a car/trailer combo, and not looked into it before, so I apologise in advance for the numpty questions. Firstly, I have seen a Mitsubishi Pajero 2.5TD SWB 1993 for sale at a decent price, looks clean for the age, but I have no idea where I look to get the data you ask for so I can work out if I can tow with it.
The plan is to get an IW 505 type.
I passed my test in the 80's.

Can you point me in the right direction please?


----------



## ROG (18 April 2013)

Crazydancer said:



			Hello, I'm looking at getting myself a car/trailer combo, and not looked into it before, so I apologise in advance for the numpty questions. Firstly, I have seen a Mitsubishi Pajero 2.5TD SWB 1993 for sale at a decent price, looks clean for the age, but I have no idea where I look to get the data you ask for so I can work out if I can tow with it.
The plan is to get an IW 505 type.
I passed my test in the 80's.

Can you point me in the right direction please?
		
Click to expand...

If I remember rightly the pajero is a japanese import with info in that language but the equivalent is the shogun

The towing vehicle info can be obtained from the V5 registered keepers form, the handbook, a plate somewhere on the vehicle or on the internet.
Kerbweight (weight when empty)
GVW or MAM (max possible legal weight when fully loaded)
Towing capacity (manufacturer actual towing weight limit  not legally enforceable but based on safety and engine power)
GTW - the max legal weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights.
In most cases, the GVW added to the towing capacity will also be the GTW.

The trailer info can be obtained from a plate on the trailer, by calling the trailer manufacturer, or on the internet. If no plate then the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS will be used by the authorities to determine the MAM.
Unladen (weight when empty)
MAM or MTPLM (max possible legal weight when fully loaded)


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## Twinkley Lights (21 April 2013)

Hi thanks so much for the trailer check advice the other day I'm now the proud owner of a second hand Bateson Ascot from Richard Grice Trailers.

I'm a tad worried about my tow set up though , I have a Cayanne and they only do detachable tow bars so that's what was fitted when I bought the car , as the stupid posers that normally buy them don't wan't to look common.  I'm a tad freaked out but hubby says it will be ok. 

Does anyone have any experience of using one of these


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## Twinkley Lights (21 April 2013)

Crazydancer said:



			Hello, I'm looking at getting myself a car/trailer combo, and not looked into it before, so I apologise in advance for the numpty questions. Firstly, I have seen a Mitsubishi Pajero 2.5TD SWB 1993 for sale at a decent price, looks clean for the age, but I have no idea where I look to get the data you ask for so I can work out if I can tow with it.
The plan is to get an IW 505 type.
I passed my test in the 80's.

Can you point me in the right direction please?
		
Click to expand...

Richard Grice in Market Rasen has three nice 505's at the moment.  I nearly bought one but wanted a change so went with Bateson.


----------



## Faro (22 April 2013)

Hi ROG,  sorry, but due to extreme laziness on my part, I haven't read through the entire thread.  Please could you tell me if it would be legal to tow the following combination:

Nissan Terrano II SE 2.4l (V Reg)
These are the specs I've found for the Terrano:
Gross Vehicle Weight
2510
Max. Towing Weight - Braked
2800
Max. Towing Weight - Unbraked
750

To tow an Ifor 505 Max weight 2340Kg, with 2 x horses each max 500Kg.

I have the original driving license as been driving for over 20 years.

Please could you tell me if this would be legal?


----------



## ROG (22 April 2013)

Faro said:



			Hi ROG,  sorry, but due to extreme laziness on my part, I haven't read through the entire thread.  Please could you tell me if it would be legal to tow the following combination:

Nissan Terrano II SE 2.4l (V Reg)
These are the specs I've found for the Terrano:
Gross Vehicle Weight
2510
Max. Towing Weight - Braked
2800
Max. Towing Weight - Unbraked
750

To tow an Ifor 505 Max weight 2340Kg, with 2 x horses each max 500Kg.

I have the original driving license as been driving for over 20 years.

Please could you tell me if this would be legal?
		
Click to expand...

As you have a B+E then you can load the trailer to its maximum weight of 2340
That will still be under the max actual weight allowed by the towing vehicle of 2800

If I remember correctly the trailer has an empty weight of 1000 so 1000+500+500=2000


----------



## Faro (22 April 2013)

Thanks ever so much for the quick response ROG.  You are the bearer of glad tidings and it means our trip to Norfolk this weekend is still going ahead.  (We're using my car with a friend's trailer as her vehicle is off the road, and my own trailer has had the central partition removed as I only usually ever travel with 1 horse)!  Much appreciated!


----------



## Twinkley Lights (22 April 2013)

Twinkley Lights said:



			Hi thanks so much for the trailer check advice the other day I'm now the proud owner of a second hand Bateson Ascot from Richard Grice Trailers.

I'm a tad worried about my tow set up though , I have a Cayanne and they only do detachable tow bars so that's what was fitted when I bought the car , as the stupid posers that normally buy them don't wan't to look common.  I'm a tad freaked out but hubby says it will be ok. 

Does anyone have any experience of using one of these

Click to expand...

As above bump - any thoughts on detachable tow bars? I've had it checked at the gargae today and they say it's safe for a horse trailer.


----------



## ROG (22 April 2013)

HHO thread on detachable tow bars


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## rubydog (23 April 2013)

Hi Rog, 

I wonder if you could help me with the below   : 

Would I be able to tow with either of the below on a B license? 
Thank you in advance 

Jeep Patriot 2.0 CRD LIMITED 5DR 2007
Gross vehicle weight	2010 kg 
Max towing weight (braked)	1500 kg 
Max towing weight (unbraked) 450 kg 

To tow an Ifor HB403, Gross weight 1600kg, unladen weight 767kg with 1 x horse max 500Kg.

Or 

Jeep Patriot 2.2 CRD LIMITED 5DR 2007
Gross vehicle weight	2050 kg
Max towing weight (braked)	2000 kg 
Max towing weight (unbraked) 450 kg


To tow an Ifor HB403, Gross weight 1600kg, unladen weight 767kg with 1 x horse max 500Kg.


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## ROG (23 April 2013)

rubydog said:



			Hi Rog, 

I wonder if you could help me with the below   : 

Would I be able to tow with either of the below on a B license? 
Thank you in advance 

Jeep Patriot 2.0 CRD LIMITED 5DR 2007
Gross vehicle weight	2010 kg 
Max towing weight (braked)	1500 kg 
Max towing weight (unbraked) 450 kg 

To tow an Ifor HB403, Gross weight 1600kg, unladen weight 767kg with 1 x horse max 500Kg.

Or 

Jeep Patriot 2.2 CRD LIMITED 5DR 2007
Gross vehicle weight	2050 kg
Max towing weight (braked)	2000 kg 
Max towing weight (unbraked) 450 kg


To tow an Ifor HB403, Gross weight 1600kg, unladen weight 767kg with 1 x horse max 500Kg.
		
Click to expand...

kerb weight 1685 kg so that will not be an issue

This will work for both vehicles ....

Contact Ifor Williams and get trailer MAM down plated to 1450 kgs
That will leave a load/horse of 683 kgs for the trailer


----------



## ROG (23 April 2013)

SnowGoose said:



			Help! Am very confused about trailer weights and whether I need to take trailer to be down-plated if towing with a car.

Towing vehicle is 2011 mondeo 2.0 with 2000kg towing capacity. Trailer is IW505 max gross weight 2340kg and unladen 905kg.  I will be towing one horse (565kg) plus kit so basing calculations on max 750kg meaning total weight towed will never be more than 1655kg.

Do I need to have max gross weight on trailer changed from 2340kg to 2000kg to fit with towing capacity of car or is the fact that weight actually towed is under 2000kg sufficient?

Thanks for help.
		
Click to expand...

This set up will need the driver to be under B+E licence rules

There is no law or rule that says the trailer plated MAM must not be more than the recommended vehicle towing capacity

You have 2000 and 2340 so the lowest of those weights is used
2000 minus 905 = 1095 kgs which is the weight that can be loaded into the trailer


----------



## Twinkley Lights (25 April 2013)

ROG said:



HHO thread on detachable tow bars

Click to expand...

Cheers thanks again ROG !!


----------



## ROG (25 April 2013)

Piccy said:



			Can anyone tell me if i could tow with a hyandai santa fe 2.0 td? 
Thank you in advance
		
Click to expand...

B+E licence = max actual towing weight of 2300 kgs as long as trailer MAM allows it

B licence = max plated trailer MAM of 1120 kgs so might just be possible with the lightest trailer around 655 kgs unladen with a pony of around 450 kgs


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## VikkiL (25 April 2013)

Hello, looking to get my daughter out o her shetland pony this summer. Car is Ford C-max, trailer would be Robisons Requisite Single. Pony weighs about 120kg.

1- B license
2- 1362kg
3-1990kg
5- 1400kg
6- 590kg

Thanks!


----------



## ROG (25 April 2013)

VikkiL said:



			Hello, looking to get my daughter out o her shetland pony this summer. Car is Ford C-max, trailer would be Robisons Requisite Single. Pony weighs about 120kg.

1- B license
2- 1362kg
3-1990kg
5- 1400kg
6- 590kg

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

Requisite by Robinsons : 75
You will need to contact the manufacturer of this trailer and have it down plated from 1400 to no more than 1362 kgs then it will be legal for B licence towing


----------



## Harry44 (27 April 2013)

Hi I was hoping you could help, would I be able to tow an equitrek trailer with a Volvo XC90? I ideally want to tow 2 horses but guessing this would be pushing it! Thanks


----------



## ROG (27 April 2013)

Harry44 said:



			Hi I was hoping you could help, would I be able to tow an equitrek trailer with a Volvo XC90? I ideally want to tow 2 horses but guessing this would be pushing it! Thanks 

Click to expand...

Volvo XC90 
Towing capacity = 2250 kgs = actual weight it can tow (unladen trailer + load)
GVW = 2750

This will need a B+E licence

If you need more then I will need to know the equitrek model


----------



## hayley.t (28 April 2013)

Hi, I don't have my b+e as passed my test after 1997 . I drive a L200 Barbarian pick up (60 plate), which has a kerb weight of 1865kg. Legally would I be able to tow a trailer with a MAM of up to 1635kg? I think this is right but don't trust my own understanding of the goverment website. I would only tow a 14.1 cob and fallabella so think it is do-able in some cheval liberte/ requisite models that allow 835- 1000kg towing capacity. Please help?


----------



## ROG (28 April 2013)

hayley.t said:



			Hi, I don't have my b+e as passed my test after 1997 . I drive a L200 Barbarian pick up (60 plate), which has a kerb weight of 1865kg. Legally would I be able to tow a trailer with a MAM of up to 1635kg? I think this is right but don't trust my own understanding of the goverment website. I would only tow a 14.1 cob and fallabella so think it is do-able in some cheval liberte/ requisite models that allow 835- 1000kg towing capacity. Please help?
		
Click to expand...

The GVW of that vehicle is about 2900 kgs so the max plated MAM weight of a trailer on a B licence will be 750 kgs

For B licence towing these are the rules...
The GVW of the vehicle added to the plated MAM of the trailer cannot be more than 3500 kgs
The plated MAM of the trailer cannot be more then the vehicle kerbweight

Find the vehicle GVW and the kerbweight
Find the plated MAM of the trailer
These can usually be found on the internet as well as on the vehicle/trailer and in the paperwork for the vehicle/trailer


----------



## hayley.t (28 April 2013)

Thank you


----------



## M_G (29 April 2013)

Another weight question.. If I have B+E on my licence and a vehicle with a max towing capacity of 2000kgs can I tow a trailer with a greater MAM than 2000kgs if actual laden weight of trailer is less than 2000 kgs?


----------



## M_G (29 April 2013)

Sorry ROG I just found stuff & I am ok with this ^^^^ aren't I?


----------



## ROG (29 April 2013)

M_G said:



			Another weight question.. If I have B+E on my licence and a vehicle with a max towing capacity of 2000kgs can I tow a trailer with a greater MAM than 2000kgs if actual laden weight of trailer is less than 2000 kgs? 

Sorry ROG I just found stuff & I am ok with this ^^^^ aren't I?
		
Click to expand...

YUP ... perfectly OK


----------



## M_G (29 April 2013)

Thank you ROG I can get an X-Trail  xxxx


----------



## Jasmine86 (30 April 2013)

Hi think I can guess the answer but want to check as they have offered to move a friends horse 

B licence
1900
2945
2700
1000

2x 16.2 warmblood types on board


----------



## ROG (30 April 2013)

Jasmine86 said:



			Hi think I can guess the answer but want to check as they have offered to move a friends horse 

B licence
1900
2945
2700
1000

2x 16.2 warmblood types on board
		
Click to expand...

You know whats coming ...... no chance 

The maximum plated MAM the trailer can have with that vehicle for B licence towing is 750 kgs which is way less than 2700 kgs 


You can drive it under your B+E provisional


----------



## Jasmine86 (30 April 2013)

So does that mean its legal with L plates? Or do they need someone with the licence in the truck?

Thanks for the help its appreciated  xx


----------



## ROG (30 April 2013)

Jasmine86 said:



			So does that mean its legal with L plates? Or do they need someone with the licence in the truck?

Thanks for the help its appreciated  xx
		
Click to expand...

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Also - the supervising driver only needs to be insured if they actually drive but not if they just supervise


----------



## Twinkley Lights (2 May 2013)

Hi Rog I got my detachable tow bar sorted out last week thanks.  When I picked up the trailer the supplier said they hadn't fitted a hitch point for the breakaway cable and that the power was Euro not GB.  I've sorted the latter with an adaptor but any ideas on where to go to get a hitch point fitted as when I called the dealer they didn't have a solution and didn't know it was illegal to tow without one!


----------



## ROG (2 May 2013)

Twinkley Lights said:



			Hi Rog I got my detachable tow bar sorted out last week thanks.  When I picked up the trailer the supplier said they hadn't fitted a hitch point for the breakaway cable and that the power was Euro not GB.  I've sorted the latter with an adaptor but any ideas on where to go to get a hitch point fitted as when I called the dealer they didn't have a solution and didn't know it was illegal to tow without one!
		
Click to expand...

http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/preparing/hitching.aspx
*



			Attach safety breakaway cable(s) to the rear of vehicle. This cable will apply the hand brake if for any reason the trailer becomes detached whilst towing. (Clip the breakaway cable onto the special rings some towbars have or loop it around the bar, making sure it cannot foul the coupling head. Do not loop it round the towball neck unless you can find no alternative.) Check that the breakaway and lighting cables have enough slack for cornering but will not touch the ground.
		
Click to expand...

*


----------



## MadJ (2 May 2013)

Me again. I have now actually found myself an instructor to train me for my test, however he has told me I can't practice unless I am supervised by an approved instructor or have someone with me who has held the towing licence for 3+ years.

I was of the understanding that I could legally tow as long as I had someone with me who had a pre 97 licence and L plates. He told me this is illegal and would invalidate my insurance should something happen.


----------



## ROG (2 May 2013)

MadJ said:



			Me again. I have now actually found myself an instructor to train me for my test, however he has told me I can't practice unless I am supervised by an approved instructor or have someone with me who has held the towing licence for 3+ years.

I was of the understanding that I could legally tow as long as I had someone with me who had a pre 97 licence and L plates. He told me this is illegal and would invalidate my insurance should something happen.
		
Click to expand...

THIS IS THE LAW and is available to find on the internet ....

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
*They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.*
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

I would be obliged if you could tell me what B+E school this is on my spare email address advanced.driving@live.co.uk please


----------



## JulzS (2 May 2013)

Hi, wondered if I could pick your brains?

I have a rice continental trailer, unladen weight 900kg (thats what it says on the plate, I suspect its even lighter as it doesnt have the original heavy partition in), max 2700kg
I have my B+E licence
Will only ever tow one horse 700kg (he cant travel with partition)

Looking to get a 4x4 towing vehicle, what would I be legal with? Being told I absolutely must have a vehicle that is plated to tow at least 2700kg as that is what is on trailer but after reading this thread I am thinking maybe not? Confused, any help appreciated!


----------



## ROG (2 May 2013)

JulzS said:



			Hi, wondered if I could pick your brains?

I have a rice continental trailer, unladen weight 900kg (thats what it says on the plate, I suspect its even lighter as it doesnt have the original heavy partition in), max 2700kg
I have my B+E licence
Will only ever tow one horse 700kg (he cant travel with partition)

Looking to get a 4x4 towing vehicle, what would I be legal with? *Being told I absolutely must have a vehicle that is plated to tow at least 2700kg as that is what is on trailer *but after reading this thread I am thinking maybe not? Confused, any help appreciated!
		
Click to expand...

I see this *INTERNET MYTH*  has come up again !!

Whoever said that too you wants shooting !!

There is no law or rule which states that the vehicle manufacturers recommended towing capacity must be able to cope with the plated MAM of a trailer

Simple rules for B+E = Use the lower of either the towing capacity or the trailler MAM weight for the max actual weight of the trailer when loaded


----------



## JulzS (2 May 2013)

Thank you very much, as I thought but jut wanted to check


----------



## EveningStar (2 May 2013)

Anyone got any good tips on hitching up the trailer?
I'm pretty ok at getting the truck to line up with the coupling on the trailer but absolutely useless at judging the distance to get the towball under the coupling (heavy trailer absolutely no hope of being able to move it by hand. I seem to either an inch too forward or too far back!


----------



## ROG (3 May 2013)

EveningStar said:



			Anyone got any good tips on hitching up the trailer?
I'm pretty ok at getting the truck to line up with the coupling on the trailer but absolutely useless at judging the distance to get the towball under the coupling (heavy trailer absolutely no hope of being able to move it by hand. I seem to either an inch too forward or too far back!
		
Click to expand...

If internal rear view mirror has good rear view then attach second mirror outside at back looking down which can be seen by rear view mirror

Or expensive rear view camera

That is the only way I can see where you can be *inch perfect* every time


----------



## Twinkley Lights (3 May 2013)

ROG said:



http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/preparing/hitching.aspx

Click to expand...

Thanks ROG I'm being blond , there is nothing to hitch to on the car so it would be wrap around the tow bar which I was told was illegal and 3 points if I'm stopped??


----------



## ROG (3 May 2013)

Twinkley Lights said:



			Thanks ROG I'm being blond , there is nothing to hitch to on the car so it would be wrap around the tow bar which I was told was illegal and 3 points if I'm stopped??
		
Click to expand...

Cannot be illegal if the NTTA say to do it if no other alternative available


----------



## Twinkley Lights (3 May 2013)

ROG said:



			Cannot be illegal if the NTTA say to do it if no other alternative available
		
Click to expand...

Cheers will keep me going until I can find someone to weld one on


----------



## alainax (6 May 2013)

I have a daft question....

I sat my B+E so I could "Youll need to do this if you want to tow a trailer or caravan heavier than 750 kilograms (kg) when the combined maximum authorised mass (MAM) of the towing vehicle and the trailer or caravan is more than 3,500kg."

However... what's my limit now?


----------



## ROG (6 May 2013)

alainax said:



			I have a daft question....

I sat my B+E so I could "Youll need to do this if you want to tow a trailer or caravan heavier than 750 kilograms (kg) when the combined maximum authorised mass (MAM) of the towing vehicle and the trailer or caravan is more than 3,500kg."

However... what's my limit now? 

Click to expand...

You are now only limited by the weight limits listed for the vehicle and the plated MAM of the trailer

Unless you passed both B and B+E after 19/01/2013, you have no licence upper weight limits for B+E

If you did pass both B and B+E after 19/01/2013 then a max limit of 3500 kgs plated MAM is placed on the trailer you can tow


----------



## alainax (6 May 2013)

ROG said:



			You are now only limited by the weight limits listed for the vehicle and the plated MAM of the trailer

Unless you passed both B and B+E after 19/01/2013, you have no licence upper weight limits for B+E

If you did pass both B and B+E after 19/01/2013 then a max limit of 3500 kgs plated MAM is placed on the trailer you can tow
		
Click to expand...


Thanks Rog  


I pass B before, and B+E after 

So that means I have "no licence upper weight limits for B+E" ( just what ever the car can pull?)

Sorry, Just lookign at getting a big heavy car, that can pull big heavy trailers  and wondered


----------



## ROG (6 May 2013)

alainax said:



			Thanks Rog  


I pass B before, and B+E after 

So that means I have "no licence upper weight limits for B+E" ( just what ever the car can pull?)

Sorry, Just lookign at getting a big heavy car, that can pull big heavy trailers  and wondered 

Click to expand...

B before 19/01/2013 and B+E after means no upper weight limit for you

What the car can tow as long as the trailer MAM is not lower than that - you cannot have a vehicle with a 3500 towing capacity and a trailer with a 2500 plated MAM and load the trailer so it weighs 3500 because 2500 would be your limit in that case

If it was a 2500 towing capacity with a 3500 plated MAM trailer then I would not recommend loading the trailer to an actual weight over 2500 because although the towing capacity is not a legal weight requirement in law exceeding it could void the warranty, the insurance and be deemed unsafe


----------



## ROG (9 May 2013)

asommerville said:



			can i tow a brand new ifor 506 with a 61 plate 2.2 rav 4 with an old person next to me and L plates on?
		
Click to expand...

Providing the towing capacity of the vehicle and the trailer plated MAM will be cope with the total weight of the load trailer then YES you can do that


*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


----------



## Lamc (9 May 2013)

I'm trying to work out the maximum laden weight of my single trailer. Its quite old so doesn't have a plate.
The unladen weight is 690kg (weighed on weighbridge )

I'm stuck with working out the total load - 2 tyres are 70T which on the index is 437kg the other two tyres are 80R which is 450kg. 

 437+437+450+450= 1774kg

So maximum laden weight = 1774kg
Trailer weighs = 690kg
Capacity = 1084kg

Is that correct?
If my sums are correct then in theory if the towing car weighed less than 1726kg the setup would be suitable for b licence towing?

Also can a trailer be downplated if it doesn't have a plate and the company that make it no longer exists?
Thanks.


----------



## ROG (9 May 2013)

Lamc said:



			I'm trying to work out the maximum laden weight of my single trailer. Its quite old so doesn't have a plate.
The unladen weight is 690kg (weighed on weighbridge )

I'm stuck with working out the total load - 2 tyres are 70T which on the index is 437kg the other two tyres are 80R which is 450kg. 

 437+437+450+450= 1774kg

So maximum laden weight = 1774kg
Trailer weighs = 690kg
Capacity = 1084kg

Is that correct?
If my sums are correct then in theory if the towing car weighed less than 1726kg the setup would be suitable for b licence towing?

Also can a trailer be downplated if it doesn't have a plate and the company that make it no longer exists?
Thanks.
		
Click to expand...

You are correct with your maths - gets big grin from your former maths teacher 

ONLY the manufacturer of the trailer can make or change the plate
Home made or other plates are not legal

With a MAM of 1774 you would need a vehicle which has a MINIMUM kerbweight of 1774 and a MAXIMUM GVW of 1726 so that is IMPOSSIBLE for B licence towing

What make is this trailer you have ?


----------



## Lamc (9 May 2013)

It's a sinclair


----------



## ROG (9 May 2013)

Lamc said:



			It's a sinclair
		
Click to expand...

OUCH !!

One thought .... If you know a company, even a one man band company, who make trailers and they do minor changes to your trailer so it is then their made trailer, they can they put a weight plate on it


----------



## Lamc (9 May 2013)

ROG said:



			OUCH !!

One thought .... If you know a company, even a one man band company, who make trailers and they do minor changes to your trailer so it is then their made trailer, they can they put a weight plate on it
		
Click to expand...

Thank you


----------



## zulu705 (11 May 2013)

Hi,

I have questions about if my tow outfit is legal

I have a pre 97 B+E licence

Trailer MAM of 2400kg
Empty trailer weights 1200kg
Car empty 1700kg
Car tow max 2000kg

Some questions.
1. is it legal to tow the trailer empty? (I think yes it is)
2. is it legal to tow the trailer empty if I had just passed the B+E test? (I think no its not)
3. is it legal to tow with one 600kg horse in the trailer? (I think yes it is)
4. if I have a pre 97 B+E the only legalities I need to worry about are ensuring that the combined weight of horses plus trailer are less than the trailer MAM and are less than the car tow capacity, is that correct?
5. if I have a post 97 B+E then I need to worry about the car tow capacity always being greater than the trailer MAM, is that correct? and do I also need to worry about the combined weight of trailer and horses always needing to be less than the weight of the empty car as well?


----------



## ROG (11 May 2013)

zulu705 said:



			Hi,

I have questions about if my tow outfit is legal

I have a pre 97 B+E licence

Trailer MAM of 2400kg
Empty trailer weights 1200kg
Car empty 1700kg
Car tow max 2000kg

Some questions.
1. is it legal to tow the trailer empty? (I think yes it is)
2. is it legal to tow the trailer empty if I had just passed the B+E test? (I think no its not)
3. is it legal to tow with one 600kg horse in the trailer? (I think yes it is)
4. if I have a pre 97 B+E the only legalities I need to worry about are ensuring that the combined weight of horses plus trailer are less than the trailer MAM and are less than the car tow capacity, is that correct?
5. if I have a post 97 B+E then I need to worry about the car tow capacity always being greater than the trailer MAM, is that correct? and do I also need to worry about the combined weight of trailer and horses always needing to be less than the weight of the empty car as well?
		
Click to expand...

1 YES
2 THAT IS THE SAME AS Q1 
3 YES
4 YES
5 SAME AS Q4

B+E rules are the same whether it was gained pre or post 1997
The only difference would be a trailer limit of 3500 kgs MAM if both B and B+E were passed after 19/01/2013


----------



## zulu705 (11 May 2013)

Thank you.


----------



## km-j (16 May 2013)

If my trailer 505 weighs 920kg, my horse say 400kg and my car has a braked weight of 1400kg (Volvo V50, 2.0D) I have been assuming I am covered! 
Thanks
Kelly


----------



## ROG (16 May 2013)

km-j said:



			If my trailer 505 weighs 920kg, my horse say 400kg and my car has a braked weight of 1400kg (Volvo V50, 2.0D) I have been assuming I am covered! 
Thanks
Kelly
		
Click to expand...

Deffo OK on a B+E licence but would need more info if on a B only licence


----------



## km-j (16 May 2013)

Yeah thought so - on a B license


----------



## ROG (16 May 2013)

km-j said:



			Yeah thought so - on a B license 

Click to expand...

If you are on a B only licence then I need this info
Vehicle GVW = ????
Vehicle Kerbweight = ????
Vehicle towing capacity = 1400
Trailer plated MAM = ????
Trailer unladen weight = 920

The extra rules for B licence towing are ....

The vehicle GVW added to the trailer plated MAM must not add up to more than 3500

The trailer plated MAM must not be more than the vehicle kerbweight


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## km-j (16 May 2013)

O lord.......this is confusing! 
Trailer plated MAM 2600
GVW 1390

I think the kerb weight is 1400 with the GTW being 1500 does that make sense!

I always go by the the braked weight of the car + unladen weight of trailer + horse/tack
1400+920+400=2620!! 

Please tell me if I'm wrong!
Kel


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## TURBOBERT (17 May 2013)

I am 67 and when I am 70 I need to renew my licence.  I have heard that although my current licence covers trailer towing my new licence will not and although I have towed for very many years I will need to take a trailer test.  Is that true and what is the cost implication of this please?


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## ROG (17 May 2013)

km-j said:



			O lord.......this is confusing! 
Trailer plated MAM 2600
GVW 1390

I think the kerb weight is 1400 with the GTW being 1500 does that make sense!

I always go by the the braked weight of the car + unladen weight of trailer + horse/tack
1400+920+400=2620!! 

Please tell me if I'm wrong!
Kel
		
Click to expand...

You are wrong 
A car like yours

Your total is the GVW which is likely to be around 2000 added to the trailer MAM of 2600 = 4600 which is way over the legal 3500 limit for B licence towing

With a kerbweight of 1390 then contacting Ifor Williams to have the trailer down plated to 1390 MAM would solve it and leave 470 kgs for the horse/load


----------



## ROG (17 May 2013)

TURBOBERT said:



			I am 67 and when I am 70 I need to renew my licence.  I have heard that although my current licence covers trailer towing my new licence will not and although I have towed for very many years I will need to take a trailer test.  Is that true and what is the cost implication of this please?
		
Click to expand...

I don't know who told you that but they are very ill-informed

The B+E remains valid as long as the B is valid

You will temporarily lose the right to drive anything in the C & D categories until you pass a D4 form medical - but that is your choice


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## km-j (17 May 2013)

Looking at the Ifor Williams 401, the trailer MAM is 1600 with the GVW of 1960 takes me to 3560 plus the load (I take it) takes it even higher. I take it the B1 does doesn't help! So I would need to get a smaller car unless I take the B&E.  the camping and caravaning site gives the wrong messages out to people! Thanks


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## ROG (17 May 2013)

km-j said:



			Looking at the Ifor Williams 401, the trailer MAM is 1600 with the GVW of 1960 takes me to 3560 plus the load (I take it) takes it even higher. I take it the B1 does doesn't help! So I would need to get a smaller car unless I take the B&E.  the camping and caravaning site gives the wrong messages out to people! Thanks
		
Click to expand...

At 1600 it would still be above the vehicle kerbweight so would need down plating to 1390

TWO EXTRA RULES for B licence towing ...

The vehicle GVW + trailer MAM must not be more than 3500
AND
The trailer MAM must not be more than vehicle kerbweight


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## ROG (17 May 2013)

*DOWN PLATING OF TRAILERS*

Just a note for those that may need to know ....

Rice/Richardson trailers have gone out of business so now along with other trailer manufacturers like Bayhill, those trailers cannot now be down plated as only a manufacturer of a trailer can down plate it

New EU rules for trailer manufacturers mean that unless a new trailer has had many plated options given for it then those cannot be down plated either
This does not affect trailers already built prior to the EU ruling 

For many B licence drivers who need a down plated trailer it could be an issue


----------



## flow (18 May 2013)

Hi Rog I wondered if you could help me. I will be taking my trailer test so will have the license but want to check that the set up I have is legal. I have a freelender td4 3 door and a 505 ifor williams triler. my horse weighs 550kg but I'm not sure about the other numbers. I dont know if you have answered this already but seeing as there are 101 pages to go through it would be quicker to ask. also do I have to take into consideration the drivers weight/passanger and any tack etc. many thanks


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## ROG (18 May 2013)

flow said:



			Hi Rog I wondered if you could help me. I will be taking my trailer test so will have the license but want to check that the set up I have is legal. I have a freelender td4 3 door and a 505 ifor williams triler. my horse weighs 550kg but I'm not sure about the other numbers. I dont know if you have answered this already but seeing as there are 101 pages to go through it would be quicker to ask. also do I have to take into consideration the drivers weight/passanger and any tack etc. many thanks
		
Click to expand...

From what I could find on the internet ....
TD4 towing capacity = 2000 kgs
505 MAM = 2600 & unladen = 900 kgs

That means you can load about 1100 kgs into the trailer


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## joolie (20 May 2013)

Hi

How do you go about downplating a trailer if the manufacturer is no longer trading?

I have just bought a small double Bahill trailer which weighs 700kg empty. I am wanting to tow this with an X Trail and a single horse (500kg) on a B licence...

Thanks


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## joolie (20 May 2013)

Actually just seen the post above - does that mean there is no way it can be done? Shame


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## ROG (20 May 2013)

joolie said:



			Actually just seen the post above - does that mean there is no way it can be done? Shame 

Click to expand...

The only way I can think of is if you know a trailer maker who makes and plates trailers to modify your trailer in some small way so they can call it their own in which case they can plate it as a 'new' trailer


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## km-j (21 May 2013)

Hi, I have just enquired about the B&E training and test and the nearest one to me uses a Berlingo Van......what do you think? The other centre I have found is 40 minutes away and use a X trail 4x4 but I am worried about not knowing the roads etc! I don't know what to do, which one would you say would be better to drive and learn in?  Thanks


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## ROG (21 May 2013)

km-j said:



			Hi, I have just enquired about the B&E training and test and the nearest one to me uses a Berlingo Van......what do you think? The other centre I have found is 40 minutes away and use a X trail 4x4 but I am worried about not knowing the roads etc! I don't know what to do, which one would you say would be better to drive and learn in?  Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Where you do it will make no difference because you will be expected to cope with any situation you are presented with and all situations are different even on local roads

The last test you did was as a learner - this test you will do as a driver

Take the option with the set up (vehicle/trailer/instructor) that you are most comfortable with


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## CrazyMare (22 May 2013)

Just had to post to say thanks to Rog, for suggesting Data Academy in Leicester to do my training.

Did 2 days with them, and passed first time this morning!!


----------



## ROG (22 May 2013)

CrazyMare said:



			Just had to post to say thanks to Rog, for suggesting Data Academy in Leicester to do my training.

Did 2 days with them, and passed first time this morning!!
		
Click to expand...

WELL DONE 

I know of certain companies around the UK that I would recommend because their good reputations follow them around on many internet sites


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## SusieB1972 (23 May 2013)

Hello.  Just checking this would be legal for towing... was pretty certain it was until someone told me no way... Now I'm confused.  Someone muttering something about gross train weight which I can't find in vehicle handbook but surely my set up works on your forumla?  Also I've been told I'm "illegal" unless I downplate my trailer to 2200kg - but isn't this just a myth? It's the actual weight I'm towing, not the trailer's capacity that counts? This has probably been asked a million times before but a million thanks anyway!

1 - B + E licence
2 - 1655kg unladen weight of the towing vehicle
3 - 2250kg GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - 2200kg max braked trailer capacity
5 - 2700kg plated MAM (511)
6 - 1000kg unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
7 - 540 kg horse weight (only EVER travel a single horse, may sometimes have 12hh pony in too for company)


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## ROG (23 May 2013)

WELCOME



SusieB1972 said:



			Hello.  Just checking this would be legal for towing... was pretty certain it was until someone told me no way... Now I'm confused.  Someone muttering something about gross train weight which I can't find in vehicle handbook but surely my set up works on your forumla?  *Also I've been told I'm "illegal" unless I downplate my trailer to 2200kg - but isn't this just a myth?* It's the actual weight I'm towing, not the trailer's capacity that counts? This has probably been asked a million times before but a million thanks anyway!

1 - B + E licence
2 - 1655kg unladen weight of the towing vehicle
3 - 2250kg GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - 2200kg max braked trailer capacity
5 - 2700kg plated MAM (511)
6 - 1000kg unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
7 - 540 kg horse weight (only EVER travel a single horse, may sometimes have 12hh pony in too for company)
		
Click to expand...

*YES it is a myth*

The GTW is usually the GVW + the towing capacity which in this case is 4450 and can be found on a plate somewhere on the vehicle - often some where around the passenger door but needs the door to be open to see it

Load a max of 1200 into the trailer and all will be fine

The person giving you incorrect info probably thinks GTW means the total of the vehicle GVW + the trailer plated MAM but that is wrong because GTW refers to the actual weight of the combination and not the total of the possible it can be according to plated weights


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## SusieB1972 (23 May 2013)

Rog, thanks, you are a LEGEND!


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## el_Snowflakes (27 May 2013)

Hello,

Question for ROG....

I posted a question a while back about the Honda crv which I have since bought (great little runner- very happy with it) I am now looking at a trailer so my question is: is this a suitable combination....

*2000 Honda CRV executive 2.0l petrol

*1992 Bateson HB trailer 

*one horse (weighing around 500kg) will need to weigh tape her again just to be sure.


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## ROG (27 May 2013)

el_Snowflakes said:



			Hello,

Question for ROG....

I posted a question a while back about the Honda crv which I have since bought (great little runner- very happy with it) I am now looking at a trailer so my question is: is this a suitable combination....

*2000 Honda CRV executive 2.0l petrol

*1992 Bateson HB trailer 

*one horse (weighing around 500kg) will need to weigh tape her again just to be sure.
		
Click to expand...

I need more info

Exact model of car and exact model of trailer

OR

Vehicle
GVW
KERB
TOWING CAPACITY

Trailer
PLATED MAM
UNLADEN WEIGHT


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## KarlyHT (29 May 2013)

Hi Rog, you helped me last time with my old trailer and horse so hoping you can clarify my set up for new trailer and horse. 

1 - b licence 
2 - 1320kg  unladen weight of the towing vehicle
3 - 1880kg GVW of the towing vehicle (shown in handbook as gross weight limit, is this correct?) 
4 - I can't find this figure - only has 8% gradient figure which is 1700kg max braked trailer capacity?? 
5 - 1600kg plated MAM (ifor Williams 401 ( in process if getting this downplated to match kerb weight which will be 1320kg)
6 - 770kg unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

Car is audi a3 2.0tdi sline stronic. 
Thanks Rog!


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## KarlyHT (29 May 2013)

Braked towing weight is 1700kg.


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## ROG (29 May 2013)

KarlyHT said:



			Hi Rog, you helped me last time with my old trailer and horse so hoping you can clarify my set up for new trailer and horse. 

1 - b licence 
2 - 1320kg  unladen weight of the towing vehicle
3 - 1880kg GVW 
4 - 1700kg max braked trailer capacity
5 - 1600kg plated MAM (ifor Williams 401 ( in process if getting this downplated to match kerb weight which will be 1320kg)
6 - 770kg unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

Car is audi a3 2.0tdi sline stronic. 
Thanks Rog!
		
Click to expand...

LEGAL when trailer downplated to 1320

Max load for trailer when downplated = 550 kgs


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## barakis (30 May 2013)

ROG

forgive me if i am asking something that has already been answered, i understand the licenses but I am still unclear as to actual weight limits.

i thought that driving a weight over 3,500KG required a C1? or is this just for the main vehicle?


so for example, lets assume my MAM and such is legal, if my vehicle is 2 tonnes, and I am towing a 1 tonne trailer with 2 x 650KG horses. this is a total weight of 4,300KG. 

is this ok on a B+E? I thought this would require a C1? what part of the license law am i missing?

appologies once again if i am repeating, and thanks for your time


----------



## ROG (30 May 2013)

barakis said:



			ROG

forgive me if i am asking something that has already been answered, i understand the licenses but I am still unclear as to actual weight limits.

i thought that driving a weight over 3,500KG required a C1? or is this just for the main vehicle?


so for example, lets assume my MAM and such is legal, if my vehicle is 2 tonnes, and I am towing a 1 tonne trailer with 2 x 650KG horses. this is a total weight of 4,300KG. 

is this ok on a B+E? I thought this would require a C1? what part of the license law am i missing?

appologies once again if i am repeating, and thanks for your time
		
Click to expand...

main vehicle GVW/MAM determines the first part of the licence requirement

If the vehicles have no more than 9 seats total .....
not more than 3500 = B
3500 to 7500 = C1


----------



## barakis (30 May 2013)

So the main vehicle + trailer can be over 3500 with B+E, as long as the main vehicle is less than 3500 on its own?


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## ROG (30 May 2013)

barakis said:



			So the main vehicle + trailer can be over 3500 with B+E, as long as the main vehicle is less than 3500 on its own?
		
Click to expand...

yes, 3500 gvw/mam not actual weight


----------



## barakis (30 May 2013)

Thanks a million percent, this bit of info is impossible to find.

This being said.

License - b+e
Vehicle - nissan navara 2005 2.5dci
Trailer weight empty 1000kg
Trailer MAM 2700kg

Horses 2x 650kg aprox.

THanks once again for clearing the last part up.


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## ROG (30 May 2013)

barakis said:



			Thanks a million percent, this bit of info is impossible to find.

This being said.

License - b+e
Vehicle - nissan navara 2005 2.5dci
Trailer weight empty 1000kg
Trailer MAM 2700kg

Horses 2x 650kg aprox.

THanks once again for clearing the last part up.
		
Click to expand...

Vehicle
GVW 3210 = B category as not more than 3500
Kerb 2085
Towing capacity 2600

Trailer
MAM 2700
Unladen 1000

B+E licence needed as total MAM is 5910 (3210+2700) which is well over the 3500 limit for B licence towing

Max load for trailer = 1600 kgs (2600-1000)


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## barakis (30 May 2013)

ROG said:



			Vehicle
GVW 3210 = B category as not more than 3500
Kerb 2085
Towing capacity 2600

Trailer
MAM 2700
Unladen 1000

B+E licence needed as total MAM is 5910 (3210+2700) which is well over the 3500 limit for B licence towing

Max load for trailer = 1600 kgs (2600-1000)
		
Click to expand...


Rog you are a legend. why is this so hard to find online?

thanks once again.


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## ROG (30 May 2013)

barakis said:



			... why is this so hard to find online?
		
Click to expand...

Because the Govt agencies do not use plain English with current examples but I do


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## Crazydancer (12 June 2013)

Hi ROG,

Some guidance please! I'm looking to change my car, which I use for work and do A LOT of miles, so unfortunately a thirsty 4x4 will be out. I don't actually have a trailer, but know several I can borrow or hire, and all are IW HB505/506 models. For the odd occasion I want to tow, would the car below be ok? (I've shown details I can find online, not sure exactly which figures you need)
I passed my test in the 80's.
I have 2 horses, approx 450 + 550 = 1000 kg
Car:
Audi A4 2.0 TDi saloon or estate (avant)
GVW: 2020 saloon/2080 avant
Max tow wt braked: 1800 both
Min kerb wt: 1470 saloon/1530 avant

Can I carry both horses? If not, could I carry one? 
Thanks! 
*crosses fingers*


----------



## ROG (13 June 2013)

Crazydancer said:



			Hi ROG,

Some guidance please! I'm looking to change my car, which I use for work and do A LOT of miles, so unfortunately a thirsty 4x4 will be out. I don't actually have a trailer, but know several I can borrow or hire, and all are IW HB505/506 models. For the odd occasion I want to tow, would the car below be ok? (I've shown details I can find online, not sure exactly which figures you need)
I passed my test in the 80's.
I have 2 horses, approx 450 + 550 = 1000 kg
Car:
Audi A4 2.0 TDi saloon or estate (avant)
GVW: 2020 saloon/2080 avant
Max tow wt braked: 1800 both
Min kerb wt: 1470 saloon/1530 avant

Can I carry both horses? If not, could I carry one? 
Thanks! 
*crosses fingers*
		
Click to expand...

As you have a B+E licence all you have to be concerned with is the trailer MAM which is about 2340 in this case and the towing capacity of 1800
The lower of those two is used so in this case it is the 1800

The empty weight of the trailers is between 900 and 920
1800 minus 920 = 880 for the load/horses

880 is not enough for 1000 kgs so its *one horse only*

What you need is a vehicle with a towing capacity of 2000

Sometimes the trailers can be lighter than what the specifications state so to find out for certain the only way is to weigh the trailer when its empty


----------



## flow (13 June 2013)

My free lander td4 is 2000kg pulling capacity and I find it good on fuel. I know people don't rate them but it pulls ok ish your never going to have everything in a car so it's deciding what is best for you and your situation.


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## OldNag (22 June 2013)

Hello,

Before I go as far as putting a tow bar, am I being realistic or pie-in-the-sky?  I have a Ford Galaxy 2.0 TDCi 2007 plate.  I bought it thinking we were getting a caravan but we seem to be collecting ponies instead....

I had been saving for a 3.5t box but am thinking that just to get us out there, I could go with a trailer setup.  I know I don't have a 4 x 4 but most of the time I'm going to places with hardstanding etc.  It would mean not going to shows on grass on wet days but I can live with that! 

I would be towing either 2 x small ponies (total weight max 530kg) or one 15hh (490kg).  I haven't bought a trailer yet so if there is a max MAM I should look for that's great.

And if anyone has towed with a Galaxy, any comments welcome!

1. License = B & E (I'm ancient!)
2. Unladen car = kerb weight  apparently minimum 1993kg 
3. GVW = Gross Vehicle Weight = 2505kg
4. Tow capacity = I can't find this.
5. Trailer This is what I need to sort!
6. Trailer unladen weight

Thank you.  This is all gobbledegook to me at the moment!


----------



## ROG (22 June 2013)

OldNag said:



			Hello,

Before I go as far as putting a tow bar, am I being realistic or pie-in-the-sky?  I have a Ford Galaxy 2.0 TDCi 2007 plate.  I bought it thinking we were getting a caravan but we seem to be collecting ponies instead....

I had been saving for a 3.5t box but am thinking that just to get us out there, I could go with a trailer setup.  I know I don't have a 4 x 4 but most of the time I'm going to places with hardstanding etc.  It would mean not going to shows on grass on wet days but I can live with that! 

I would be towing either 2 x small ponies (total weight max 530kg) or one 15hh (490kg).  I haven't bought a trailer yet so if there is a max MAM I should look for that's great.

And if anyone has towed with a Galaxy, any comments welcome!

1. License = B & E (I'm ancient!)
2. Unladen car = kerb weight  apparently minimum 1993kg 
3. GVW = Gross Vehicle Weight = 2505kg
4. Tow capacity = I can't find this.
5. Trailer This is what I need to sort!
6. Trailer unladen weight

Thank you.  This is all gobbledegook to me at the moment!
		
Click to expand...

From what I can get from the internet, your vehicle should have a towing capacity of 1800 kgs

I cannot find your model and the highest kerbweight I found was about 1800 kgs so nowhere near 1993 kgs - not that it is important in your case as you have a B+E licence

Somewhere on your vehicle there is a plate which will state the GVW and the GTW - if you can find it then deduct the GVW from the GTW and in most cases that will be the towing capacity - in case I have the 1800 wrong !!
That plate can be in the boot, on a door pillar (open door to see it) or under the bonnet.

Assuming the 1800 is correct and you want to load all 3 into the trailer then that would be a load of just over 1000 kgs
In that case I would look for a trailer which is no more than 750 kgs empty with a MAM of at least 1800 kgs

If you only want to load a max weight into the trailer of about 500 kgs then look for a trailer which is no more than 1200 kgs empty/unladen with a MAM of at least 1800 kgs

Load 600 with a trailer weighing 700 needs a MAM of at least 1300 kgs

*Load plus empty trailer must be less than the towing capacity and less than the plated MAM of the trailer*


----------



## OldNag (22 June 2013)

Thank you ROG that's brilliant. I will only put the two small ponies or ny horse in so max horse weight  would be 530kg .
I shall track down those figs on my vehicle  and start looking at trailer models!


----------



## ROG (23 June 2013)

OldNag said:



			Thank you ROG that's brilliant. I will only put the two small ponies or ny horse in so max horse weight  would be 530kg .
I shall track down those figs on my vehicle  and start looking at trailer models!
		
Click to expand...

You will have a massive choice because most double trailers are between 700 and 1000 kgs empty with MAMs from 2000 to 3000 in general


----------



## Crazydancer (23 June 2013)

ROG, thanks for the reply to my question, that's really helpful. I've browsed and found a few cars that might fit the bill now, so hopefully in the next few months will get sorted with something. Now I know exactly what I'm looking at in the vehicle data!


----------



## Mynyddcymro (26 June 2013)

Hi ROG...
Really hope you can help my other half and I. My other half will be the person towing. He has a normal car driving licence and has held it for nearly four years. He hasn't done his trailer test.

We are looking at purchasing a Volvo V70 2.4 Automatic All Wheel Drive W reg.
Have had a look on the Internet for the weights etc of the car and found this website

www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-figures/volvo/v70/estate-1996/14020/

Are we right in thinking that OH doesn't need to take his trailer test providing the trailer (and car) when fully loaded does not exceed 1600kg and the car and trailer combined do not exceed 3500kg?

I hope I'm reading the direct gov website correctly. 

We have been offered the use of a trailer specifically built for Shetland ponies and will be taking just the one miniature Shetland to shows. 

Any clarification would be brilliant!


----------



## alainax (26 June 2013)

Mynyddcymro said:



			Hi ROG...
Really hope you can help my other half and I. My other half will be the person towing. He has a normal car driving licence and has held it for nearly four years. He hasn't done his trailer test.

We are looking at purchasing a Volvo V70 2.4 Automatic All Wheel Drive W reg.
Have had a look on the Internet for the weights etc of the car and found this website

www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-figures/volvo/v70/estate-1996/14020/

Are we right in thinking that OH doesn't need to take his trailer test providing the trailer (and car) when fully loaded does not exceed 1600kg and the car and trailer combined do not exceed 3500kg?

I hope I'm reading the direct gov website correctly. 

We have been offered the use of a trailer specifically built for Shetland ponies and will be taking just the one miniature Shetland to shows. 

Any clarification would be brilliant!
		
Click to expand...

You may find you dont need to worry about any of that, if the trailer and the pony together weigh less than 750kg, then your in the park one bracket 

From 19 January 2013, drivers passing a category B (car and small vehicle) test can tow:

    small trailers weighing no more than 750kg


----------



## ROG (26 June 2013)

Mynyddcymro said:



			Hi ROG...
Really hope you can help my other half and I. My other half will be the person towing. He has a normal car driving licence and has held it for nearly four years. He hasn't done his trailer test.

We are looking at purchasing a Volvo V70 2.4 Automatic All Wheel Drive W reg.
Have had a look on the Internet for the weights etc of the car and found this website

www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-figures/volvo/v70/estate-1996/14020/

Are we right in thinking that OH doesn't need to take his trailer test providing the trailer (and car) when fully loaded does not exceed 1600kg and the car and trailer combined do not exceed 3500kg?

I hope I'm reading the direct gov website correctly. 

We have been offered the use of a trailer specifically built for Shetland ponies and will be taking just the one miniature Shetland to shows. 

Any clarification would be brilliant!
		
Click to expand...

The last poster has the new rules incorrect - there is no change to B licence towing from the previous rules = 100% guaranteed

I cannot find your exact vehicle on the internet but it seems from what I did find that was very similar that the GVW is about 2200 kgs

It is the GVW 2200 and not the kerb weight of about 1600 which goes towards the max 3500 kgs allowed

Lets assume it is 2200 GVW so that means your max trailer plated MAM can be no more than 1300 kgs

Again, it is the MAM of the trailer and not the actual weight which is used towards the 3500 max

As 1300 trailer MAM is not more than the 1600ish kerb weight of the Volvo then that is ok for the other rule

There will be a plate somewhere on the Volvo with the GVW - it could be hidden in the door or door frame, in the boot or under the bonnet but it will be there - the top weight of the 4 listed weights will be the GVW

There is usually a silver plate on the trailer which gives the trailer MAM


----------



## alainax (26 June 2013)

ROG said:



			The last poster has the new rules incorrect - there is no change to B licence towing from the previous rules = 100% guaranteed
		
Click to expand...

Ah crap I pasted the wrong bit, I was talking about the  part one of the rule, this part - 

"If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can drive either:

    a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500 kilograms (kg) Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM (with a combined weight of up to 4,250kg in total)"

So if she were example towing a  mini horse 400kg mam trailer with 100kg miniature horse inside, then it would fall into this category?

and not the second part that we all know and love 

"a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as it is no more than the unladen or &#8216;kerb&#8217; weight of the towing vehicle (with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in total)"


----------



## ROG (26 June 2013)

alainax said:



			Ah crap I pasted the wrong bit, I was talking about the  part one of the rule, this part - 

"If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can drive either:

    a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500 kilograms (kg) Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM (with a combined weight of up to 4,250kg in total)"

So if she were example towing a  mini horse 400kg mam trailer with 100kg miniature horse inside, then it would fall into this category?

and not the second part that we all know and love 

"a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as it is no more than the unladen or kerb weight of the towing vehicle (with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in total)"
		
Click to expand...

The last bit is now a grey area because it was missed off and I am currently awaiting a definitive reply from the DfT minister via my MP

Until clarified I will continue to use that as being the current law as it is safer to err on the side of caution

The rest is exactly the same as its always been


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## Mynyddcymro (26 June 2013)

Okay thanks, I think I understand. So, the trailer when fully loaded cannot weigh more than 1300kg (providing the car does weigh 2200kg).

And if that is the case someone with a licence between 1997 and beginning of January 2013 can tow the above without taking their trailer test?


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## ROG (27 June 2013)

Mynyddcymro said:



			Okay thanks, I think I understand. So, the trailer when fully loaded cannot weigh more than 1300kg (providing the car does weigh 2200kg).

And if that is the case someone with a licence between 1997 and beginning of January 2013 can tow the above without taking their trailer test?
		
Click to expand...

Licence from 1997 to now - not jan 2013

GVW of car = 2200 so max plated MAM of trailer = 1300

I put it that way because I was not sure if you were referring to actual weights or maximum possible legal weights (GVW or MAM)


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## Mynyddcymro (27 June 2013)

This is so confusing. Thanks for trying to explain though! I'll get the details for the trailer and what is written on the actual car and post again.


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## OldNag (28 June 2013)

Can't quote on my phone but thank you  ROG for the advice. Much appreciated


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## Bikerchickone (29 June 2013)

Hi ROG, some advice please if you can! 

Currently hold post 1997 licence, thinking of getting a lorry as more stable for my rather temperamental beast, but was wondering, if I did a C1 test to drive up to 7.5t with a towing allowance of 750kg would that mean I would also then be allowed to use a car (think large 4x4!) to tow a trailer without restriction, or does the 750kgs limit still apply even if the towing vehicle is under 3500kgs? 

I'm a bit confused because DVLA website states a vehicle between 3500kg and 7500kgs can tow max of 750kgs, but doesn't say anything about what you can tow with a car under 3500kgs. If you get my drift! 

Trying to be a cheapskate and not have to do two tests or pay loads more than necessary!

Oh and if I can't do that am I right in thinking Subaru Legacy B spec with GVW of 2030kg and braked trailer limit of 2000kgs would be ok to tow a downplated Bateson Darby (weighs 675kgs empty) with one 600kg horse in it as I am now? Thinking downplating from 1700kgs to 1450kgs still gives me a margin for error, and I can still have nice quick car the rest of the time! 

Thank you very much!


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## ROG (29 June 2013)

Bikerchickone said:



			Hi ROG, some advice please if you can! 

Currently hold post 1997 licence, thinking of getting a lorry as more stable for my rather temperamental beast, but was wondering, if I did a C1 test to drive up to 7.5t with a towing allowance of 750kg would that mean I would also then be allowed to use a car (think large 4x4!) to tow a trailer without restriction, or does the 750kgs limit still apply even if the towing vehicle is under 3500kgs? 

I'm a bit confused because DVLA website states a vehicle between 3500kg and 7500kgs can tow max of 750kgs, but doesn't say anything about what you can tow with a car under 3500kgs. If you get my drift! 

Trying to be a cheapskate and not have to do two tests or pay loads more than necessary!

Oh and if I can't do that am I right in thinking Subaru Legacy B spec with GVW of 2030kg and braked trailer limit of 2000kgs would be ok to tow a downplated Bateson Darby (weighs 675kgs empty) with one 600kg horse in it as I am now? Thinking downplating from 1700kgs to 1450kgs still gives me a margin for error, and I can still have nice quick car the rest of the time! 

Thank you very much! 

Click to expand...

Subaru/bateson towing set up legal for B licence towing when trailer plated at 1450 = well understood and worked out 

Passing a LGV C1 test has no effect on the B licence so the B stays under the same rules

If you passed C1 then C1+E then the B would get upgraded to B+E


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## Bikerchickone (29 June 2013)

Thanks ROG, somehow I knew there wouldn't be an easy way to do it! Might have to see if my local training centre will do me a deal on both!  

Thank you very much for your help


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## ROG (29 June 2013)

Bikerchickone said:



			Thanks ROG, somehow I knew there wouldn't be an easy way to do it! Might have to see if my local training centre will do me a deal on both!  

Thank you very much for your help 

Click to expand...

Think carefully ....
C1 and B+E
or
C1 and C1+E which will give you B+E for free


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## Charlie77 (1 July 2013)

Hi, can any one tell me if in Kent there is any were I can book in and just do a trailer test? with out the full course that every one seems to want to sell? 

I have a b licence or b1, I passed my test 12 years ago, I have a modern bateson trailer my other half has a ten year old grand cheroki and I compete a big horse 17.1hh  3/4 tb. 
I can reverse a trailer I grew up on a farm, can I just do the test? would I need to do a theory test again? any ideas please, just want to be inderpendent!!


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## Littlemissmoneypenny (1 July 2013)

Hi, sorry if this has already been asked. Can I take a b+e test in an automatic? Just we have recently got a new 4x4 but its an auto and I need to do my test but don't want it restricting me to only towing with autos? Thanks


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## ROG (2 July 2013)

Charlie77 said:



			Hi, can any one tell me if in Kent there is any were I can book in and just do a trailer test? with out the full course that every one seems to want to sell? 

I have a b licence or b1, I passed my test 12 years ago, I have a modern bateson trailer my other half has a ten year old grand cheroki and I compete a big horse 17.1hh  3/4 tb. 
I can reverse a trailer I grew up on a farm, can I just do the test? would I need to do a theory test again? any ideas please, just want to be inderpendent!!
		
Click to expand...

ONE SUGGESTION but there are others

Google - B+E trailer training Kent - for others and then call them to see what they can offer


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## ROG (2 July 2013)

Littlemissmoneypenny said:



			Hi, sorry if this has already been asked. Can I take a b+e test in an automatic? Just we have recently got a new 4x4 but its an auto and I need to do my test but don't want it restricting me to only towing with autos? Thanks 

Click to expand...

Take B+E test in AUTO gets B+E AUTO only

Unless you do it in NI in which case you get B+E manual if taken in auto and already got B manual - the DVLNI work slightly differently to DVLA


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## Finn (2 July 2013)

Hi Rog

I drive a Nissan Terrano 2.7TD S reg 3 Door SWB

I've been told it (empty) weighs 1724. When fully loaded it could weigh 2510. For some reason it says it can tow 2800. But that's not right is it as I can't safely tow something that is heavier than the car (as the trailer would push the car along when trying to stop etc). So as long as I am towing under 1724kgs I will be fine including the weight of the trailer any my horse

for example

Horse = 550kgs
Trailer = 750gs

I cant tow an Ifor Williams or anything like that as they weigh around 900 so will be too heavy? Or can we tow an Ifor Williams 505 trailer with above horse in?

then I'm OK?

Is there still this '' you cant tow anything over and up to 85%'' rule?

This is what I was sent by someone else

''Right according to this, your car (empty) weighs 1724. When fully loaded it could weigh 2510. For some reason it says it can tow 2800. But that's not right as you can't safely tow something that is heavier than the car (as the trailer would push the car along when trying to stop etc etc). So as long as you are towing under 1724 you will be fine 

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/used-ca...no-2-7-tdi-se-3dr-ipswich-fpa-201306227439486

The unladen (empty) weight of an ifor 5o5 is 905 kg. that means you can safely tow as long is Finn is less than 1724-905 (approx 800kg). Which she is.

So you can safely and legally tow one horse but not two''

Is this all correct?
.


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## ROG (2 July 2013)

Many modern vehicles are specifically designed to tow more than their GVW

One 4x4 has a GVW of 2700 and a towing capacity of 3500 - it is designed to tow 3500 at its kerb weight of 2100 !!

Generally, it is better to have the towing vehicle heavier than the trailer but that does not mean having the trailer heavier is unsafe

The 85% advice (not law or rule) is for newby caravanners only

If your vehicle has a towing capacity of 2800 then loading it to that weight is ok providing the trailer MAM allows for that


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## Finn (2 July 2013)

But most websites I have been on say the vehicles unladen weight in 1724 but when I rang Nissan they said 2880. 

Im confused.com


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## ROG (2 July 2013)

Finn said:



			But most websites I have been on say the vehicles unladen weight in 1724 but when I rang Nissan they said 2880. 

Im confused.com
		
Click to expand...

Why does it matter what the unladen weight of the car is if you are towing with a B+E licence ?

OK, it could matter if you are planning to load the car to its full weight capacity but that's the only reason I can think of


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## Finn (2 July 2013)

I thought it had to be the weight of the trialer plus the weight of the horse wasn't allowed to weight more than the unladen weight of the vehicle towing it otherwise it was illegal


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## ROG (2 July 2013)

A thought ... are you reading internet sites which deal with caravan towing ?


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## ROG (2 July 2013)

Finn said:



			I thought it had to be the weight of the trialer plus the weight of the horse wasn't allowed to weight more than the unladen weight of the vehicle towing it otherwise it was illegal
		
Click to expand...

For B only (no B+E) licence towing ....
The vehicle GVW added to the trailer MAM must not be more than 3500 kgs
and..... this is what you are referring to ....
The trailer MAM must not be more than the vehicle kerb weight


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## Finn (2 July 2013)

sorry to be so thick but what does GVW and MAM mean?

Im a woman- I don't know these things lol


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## ROG (2 July 2013)

Finn said:



			sorry to be so thick but what does GVW and MAM mean?

Im a woman- I don't know these things lol
		
Click to expand...

They both mean the same thing - the maximum weight they can be when fully loaded

Example ...
Trailer MAM of 2500
Trailer unladen weight of 1000
Max load would be 1500 because 1000+1500=the max of 2500

Car GVW 2000
Car kerb weight 1500
Max load for car would be 500 because 1500+500= max GVW of 2000


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## Finn (2 July 2013)

Aww Ok, Im with ya now lol

so then, what is the max weight my car can tow legally including the weight of the trailer and a 600kgs horse ( she doesn't weight that she weights slightly less but it was an easy round number)


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## ROG (2 July 2013)

Finn said:



			Aww Ok, Im with ya now lol

so then, what is the max weight my car can tow legally including the weight of the trailer and a 600kgs horse ( she doesn't weight that she weights slightly less but it was an easy round number)
		
Click to expand...

if your towing capacity is listed as 2800 kgs then it can tow that weight (trailer+load) PROVIDING the MAM of the trailer allows that much


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## ROG (2 July 2013)

Do you have a BE on your licence?


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## Finn (2 July 2013)

I don't have my license on me to check it as I'm at work but I took my test in 1987 if that's any help


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## ROG (2 July 2013)

Finn said:



			I don't have my license on me to check it as I'm at work but I took my test in 1987 if that's any help
		
Click to expand...

1987 is before 1997 so you will have B+E 

It is very easy for those with a B+E because you find the max towing capacity for the vehicle and the max trailer MAM then use the lower of those two for the maximum which the trailer including its load can be


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## Finn (2 July 2013)

Brill

Thanks ROG.

I really appreciate your advice xxxx


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## roscipoo (4 July 2013)

Hi ROG 

I wondered if you might be able to help me out please? 

I have a 5 door Toyota Rav 4 and am hoping to buy a cheval liberte trailer. I'm trying to work out whether to get a mare and foal trailer or double. I think the below figures are correct!!

B licence 
GVW 1930 kg
KW 1490 kg
GTW 1500 kg
MAM 1600 kg
Unladen trailer 765 kg 

As my GTW is 1500 kg and my horse weight 650 kg am I right in thinking that I'm ok as long as my trailer weighs less than 850 kg? Is this still safe when your aiming for alight trailer to make it legal? 

Many thanks in advance


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## ROG (5 July 2013)

roscipoo said:



			Hi ROG 

I wondered if you might be able to help me out please? 

I have a 5 door Toyota Rav 4 and am hoping to buy a cheval liberte trailer. I'm trying to work out whether to get a mare and foal trailer or double. I think the below figures are correct!!

B licence 
GVW 1930 kg
KW 1490 kg
*TOWING CAPACITY *1500 kg
The GTW would be 3430 kg (1930+1500=3430)
MAM 1600 kg
Unladen trailer 765 kg 

As my TOWING CAPACITY is 1500 kg and my horse weight 650 kg am I right in thinking that I'm ok as long as my trailer weighs less than 850 kg? Is this still safe when your aiming for alight trailer to make it legal? 

Many thanks in advance 

Click to expand...

The extra rules for B licence towing are ....
The vehicle GVW 1930 added to the trailer MAM 1600 must not be more than 3500 but in this case it is 3530 so illegal by 30 kg
The trailer MAM must not be more than vehicle kerb weight 1490 but in this case it is by 1010 kg so illegal
The second rule is currently under legal review after the EU changes in jan this year so it might be scrapped

Your trailer would need to be down plated to a maximum of 1490 to be legal for B licence towing

If it was a MAM of 1490 then that would leave 725 for the load/horse


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## SpottedCat (5 July 2013)

Question - anyone know how I would find out the maximum towing capacity of a grey import vehicle? 

The info I have so far for the tow vehicle is:

1790 kerb weight
2260 gross weight

The info for the trailer (assuming an ifor 506):
2600 gross weight
920 unladen weight

What more do I need to know to see if the setup would be legal (assuming a B+E licence)?

Thanks!


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## ROG (5 July 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			Question - anyone know how I would find out the maximum towing capacity of a grey import vehicle? 

The info I have so far for the tow vehicle is:

1790 kerb weight
2260 gross weight

The info for the trailer (assuming an ifor 506):
2600 gross weight
920 unladen weight

What more do I need to know to see if the setup would be legal (assuming a B+E licence)?

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

Is there a plate somewhere on the vehicle stating the GTW - it could also be on the paperwork ??

My guess is that the GTW would be somewhere between 4000 and 5000 kgs so finding a figure near those will be it

What vehicle is it ? - please give as much info as possible please


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## SpottedCat (5 July 2013)

Ah - I don't have any paperwork or indeed a specific vehicle - I'm on a fact-finding mission for a specific purpose! 

I'm looking at a 2.5L diesel Mazda Bongo Friendee, probably somewhere between 1998-2005 (it obviously won't be any newer than a 2005 one since the factory burnt down and all the tooling was destroyed!).


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## SpottedCat (6 July 2013)

Ok, so I've been told that GTW isn't something which is on the vehicle itself so it looks like I'm not going to be able to find this out. 

People on the vehicle specific forum reckon a 2.5lTD won't be a big enough engine anyway to tow a trailer/horse.


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## ROG (6 July 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			Ok, so I've been told that GTW isn't something which is on the vehicle itself so it looks like I'm not going to be able to find this out. 

People on the vehicle specific forum reckon a 2.5lTD won't be a big enough engine anyway to tow a trailer/horse.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.bongoforum.co.uk/forum/Blah.pl?m-1344877722/
Does that help?

As a general rule, the towing capacity of most vehicles is roughly equal to the kerb weight of the vehicle - that is not an exact science but its a good guide


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## Charem (6 July 2013)

Good morning ROG, please could you take a look at the set up below and tell me 1. if its legal and 2. if so what weight have I got left to play with in the trailer?

Hope these figures are the right ones. Car is a Hyundai Tucson 04 plate and trailer an Ifor 505.

1. B+E
2. 1517kg
3. 2140kg
4. 1600kg
5. 2340kg
6. 905kg

Thank you


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## SpottedCat (6 July 2013)

So essentially I'd be cutting it fine with one horse and it would be a no go with two? I'd read that thread but I don't really know what I'm looking for hence the question!


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## SpottedCat (6 July 2013)

It seems the safe towing limit is 1650 which means it probably isn't the answer for us.


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## ROG (6 July 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			It seems the safe towing limit is 1650 which means it probably isn't the answer for us.
		
Click to expand...

Lightweight horse trailer = 675 to 770 kgs unladen
Horse 550 kgs
Total weight = 1320 kgs

If towing on B licence and not B+E then the trailer might need down plating to fit in with the B licence towing rules which may be difficult to do with a GVW of 2260 as it only leaves 1240 for the trailer MAM using the 770 but 675+550=1225 so that is possible
If you have B+E then no worries on the trailer MAM as long as it will cover the weight of the empty trailer + load


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## ROG (6 July 2013)

Charem said:



			Good morning ROG, please could you take a look at the set up below and tell me 1. if its legal and 2. if so what weight have I got left to play with in the trailer?

Hope these figures are the right ones. Car is a Hyundai Tucson 04 plate and trailer an Ifor 505.

1. B+E
2. 1517kg
3. 2140kg
4. 1600kg
5. 2340kg
6. 905kg

Thank you 

Click to expand...

You can load a max of 695 kgs into that trailer (1600-905=695) and be legal/within manufacturers vehicle limitations


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## SpottedCat (6 July 2013)

Thanks ROG. I'd do my B+E. horse weighs bang on 500kg as I've had her on a weigh bridge. 

I'd definitely only be able to tow one though, which would be a real downside for me as I like going places with people! 

More thinking to be done...


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## SpottedCat (6 July 2013)

Ok, so the 1650 seems to be the figure from the 85% rule - where do you stand on that ROG?


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## ROG (7 July 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			Ok, so the 1650 seems to be the figure from the 85% rule - where do you stand on that ROG?
		
Click to expand...

The 85% advice, not rule, is only for first time caravanners and does not apply to any other type of trailer

Some modern 4x4xs are designed to tow well over their GVW let alone their kerb weight - some have a safe towing limit of 3500 with a kerb weight of 2200 and a GVW of 2700
It would be a bit pointless having a safe towing limit of 3500 and trailers with MAMs of 3500 if the 85% advice was meant to be followed for those that tow things !!


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## SpottedCat (7 July 2013)

Yes, sorry, misuse of the word rule there! You got the idea anyway. I guess I need to speak to some dealerships to get the info I need and probably to get some sensible advice about whether its a good setup or not.


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## SpottedCat (7 July 2013)

Not implying that advice here is t sensible BTW but there are two wildly opposing viewpoints on the specialist site!


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## ROG (7 July 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			Not implying that advice here is t sensible BTW but there are two wildly opposing viewpoints on the specialist site!
		
Click to expand...

I am on loads of forums which deal with towing including the caravan talk one and all of them agree with me so which so called specialist site does someone not agree ?

Logic dictates that if the 85% was to be used for all trailers on safety grounds then there would be no point of any vehicle having a towing limit over that amount and it would also be written into law


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## JenG (7 July 2013)

I have been trying to work out the weights for myself but I give up its too confusing for me. I'm looking at buying a nissan x trail aventura 2.2 05 plate, would want to tow one horse of 500kg in an hb506 trailer which I believe unladen weight is 920kg? Would this set up be legal for a b licence holder? Would eventually be taking the test but I have someone available to give me some lessons so I could do short journeys by myself  before taking the test. Your help would be much appreciated, thankyou in advance


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## ROG (7 July 2013)

JenG said:



			I have been trying to work out the weights for myself but I give up its too confusing for me. I'm looking at buying a nissan x trail aventura 2.2 05 plate, would want to tow one horse of 500kg in an hb506 trailer which I believe unladen weight is 920kg? Would this set up be legal for a b licence holder? Would eventually be taking the test but I have someone available to give me some lessons so I could do short journeys by myself  before taking the test. Your help would be much appreciated, thankyou in advance
		
Click to expand...

IF THIS IS YOUR VEHICLE ....
GVW 2050
Kerb 1525
Towing capacity 2000

If it is your vehicle then the maximum trailer plated MAM for B licence towing will be 1450 kgs

Your current trailer is 920 empty and probably plated at over 2000 so it will need down plating by contacting Ifor Williams and reduced to 1450 which will then leave 530 kgs for the load/horse

530 with a 500 horse does not leave much for error or any other bits in the trailer .... its a close call

Your alternative to down plating is this .... which will allow a load of 1080 kgs for the trailer.....
*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


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## SpottedCat (7 July 2013)

No ROG, you misunderstand me - I believe you re the 85% thing. It's more whether or not the vehicle would be a good tow vehicle.


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## mischamoo (8 July 2013)

ROG,

I just wondered if you might clarify a point on where I've seen advice been given on towing weights and I'm not sure it's correct!

For example if a vehicle can tow 2000kg and was towing an ifor williams 505 where the maximum gross weight is 2340kg, am I correct in thinking that this is an illegal setup as the maximum gross weight of the trailer is more than the towing capacity of the car. And even if someone was towing this combination empty or with a total weight that was less than the tow capacity of the car which is 2000kg, this is still illegal?

Thank you for any clarification!


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## ROG (8 July 2013)

mischamoo said:



			ROG,

I just wondered if you might clarify a point on where I've seen advice been given on towing weights and I'm not sure it's correct!

For example if a vehicle can tow 2000kg and was towing an ifor williams 505 where the maximum gross weight is 2340kg, am I correct in thinking that this is an illegal setup as the maximum gross weight of the trailer is more than the towing capacity of the car. And even if someone was towing this combination empty or with a total weight that was less than the tow capacity of the car which is 2000kg, this is still illegal?

Thank you for any clarification!
		
Click to expand...

This is an old internet myth

*There is no law or rule which states that the manufacturers recommended towing capacity must be able to cope with the potential MAM of a trailer*

Can you imagine what would happen if it was true ..... trailers would need to be down plated and up plated many times and that would apply to LGVs as well as other types because they are all under the same laws !!

If you ever come across someone saying otherwise then ask them to show you the law ...... but you will be waiting a long long time


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## laurahayley (8 July 2013)

1. B
2.2140
3. 2520
4. 3500
5. 1905
6. 905


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## ROG (8 July 2013)

laurahayley said:



			1. B
2.2140
3. 2520
4. 3500
5. 1905
6. 905
		
Click to expand...

Illegal on a B licence

The maximum trailer plated MAM for a vehicle with a GVW of 2520 on a B licence is only 980 kgs (you have one with 1905)

You need a vehicle with a lower GVW and a trailer with a lower unladen and MAM weight

Post numbers 999 and 1000 of this thread will give you some ideas


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## jane_volt (9 July 2013)

Any one know of any good rent a tow companies in St Albans? Please message me. Ta !


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## Aleka81 (10 July 2013)

Hi Rog
Being very thick!
I have just taken the following details off my freelander:
Max laden weight 2040
Max vehicle and trailer weight 4040
Max road weight front axle 1050
Max road weight rear axle 1120

Is there anything i can tow on a B license with this set up? Horse is 550kgs and would only ever be the one

If you need any more info please let me know and thank you in advance


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## ROG (10 July 2013)

Aleka81 said:



			Hi Rog
Being very thick!
I have just taken the following details off my freelander:
Max laden weight 2040
Max vehicle and trailer weight 4040
Max road weight front axle 1050
Max road weight rear axle 1120

Is there anything i can tow on a B license with this set up? Horse is 550kgs and would only ever be the one

If you need any more info please let me know and thank you in advance
		
Click to expand...

That would be a Freelander 1 and others have said that some can be a little under powered when towing and can have other issues but if yours is ok then fine as you probably have a good one

Now to your question ...
There are a few examples of trailers that can be used with this vehicle for B licence towing in post number 999 of this thread but I will use one example

Ifor HB401 or the new version of that is 1600 MAM and 770 kgs unladen

Contact Ifor Williams to arrange to have it down plated from 1600 to 1450

When down plated to 1450 it will leave 680 kgs for the load/horse

1450 + 2040 = 3490 so under the 3500 B licence towing limit
Although you have not listed the kerb weight I believe 1450 is going to be under the kerb weight so that is ok


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## Aleka81 (10 July 2013)

Hi Rog
Thank you for that. I also have the option of using a Trooper would my options be more widened with this?
Will try and get details for this later
Thank you


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## Dunpony (11 July 2013)

I wonder if you can help with a slightly different towing problem - can I tow more than 750kg with a 7.5 ton lorry (keeping under the lorry's train weight) on a pre 97 car license?


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## ROG (11 July 2013)

Dunpony said:



			I wonder if you can help with a slightly different towing problem - can I tow more than 750kg with a 7.5 ton lorry (keeping under the lorry's train weight) on a pre 97 car license?
		
Click to expand...

Not with a LGV with a GVW of 7.5 tonnes

You can if you drive a LGV with a lower GTW because the MAM limit is 8250 kgs on a pre 1997 C1+E with a 107 code

Example
LGV plated at 6 tonnes GVW with a trailer plated at 2.25 tonnes (2250 kgs) MAM = 8250 kgs

If you do not need the full 7.5 GVW then perhaps down plating it might be an option to allow for a higher MAM trailer

What did you want to tow behind it ?


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## Dunpony (11 July 2013)

Thanks for that, I actually want to tow a small car.  The whole thing should come in at under a ton, including A frame and car. I'm looking at the sort of system used with motorhomes.

I need to look at the MAM rather than the actual weight then?


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## ROG (11 July 2013)

Dunpony said:



			Thanks for that, I actually want to tow a small car.  The whole thing should come in at under a ton, including A frame and car. I'm looking at the sort of system used with motorhomes.

I need to look at the MAM rather than the actual weight then?
		
Click to expand...

Unless on a trailer the car must have at least over run brakes and be fully legal as at least part of it is on the road

A frame towing means conforming to trailer and vehicle requirements at the same time

A car can be fitted with an extra braking system which works when the towing vehicle brakes are applied but it is expensive


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## ROG (12 July 2013)

*IMPORTANT LEGAL ANNOUNCEMENT*

The B licence towing rule where it states the MAM of the trailer must not exceed the vehicle kerb weight has been removed on 19 Jan 2013

This means that all B licence holders, no matter when they passed the B test, only have the extra rule .... the total combination MAM must not exceed 3500 kgs .... which is the vehicle GVW added to the trailer MAM


Unfortunately I cannot edit previous advice to accommodate this change.


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## HaffiesRock (15 July 2013)

can I just confirm then Rog, I passed my test in 2007 so with my dad sat next to me I could tow? Do I need L plates and does the trailer have to be empty? Thanks


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## ROG (15 July 2013)

HaffiesRock said:



			can I just confirm then Rog, I passed my test in 2007 so with my dad sat next to me I could tow? Do I need L plates and does the trailer have to be empty? Thanks
		
Click to expand...

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*

In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


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## caithness_1 (23 July 2013)

Hi Rog, confirmation on whether this combination would be legal would be much appreciated.

1. B+E
2. 1565 
3. 2000
4. 1700
5. 2700
6. 1000

The car is a Subaru legacy sports tourer, and trailer would be ifor Williams 510. From my understanding, it would be legal to tow one 550kg horse, as it is under the max 1700kg allowed? Or is there more to it than that? 

Thanks for any help.


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## ROG (23 July 2013)

caithness_1 said:



			Hi Rog, confirmation on whether this combination would be legal would be much appreciated.

1. B+E
2. 1565 
3. 2000
4. 1700
5. 2700
6. 1000

The car is a Subaru legacy sports tourer, and trailer would be ifor Williams 510. From my understanding, it would be legal to tow one 550kg horse, as it is under the max 1700kg allowed? Or is there more to it than that? 

Thanks for any help.
		
Click to expand...

Nothing for me to do here because you have it in one

1000+550=1550 leaving 150 to spare


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## caithness_1 (23 July 2013)

ROG said:



			Nothing for me to do here because you have it in one

1000+550=1550 leaving 150 to spare
		
Click to expand...


Thank you


----------



## BrandySnap46 (28 July 2013)

Hi can you help with my Freelander & Bahill trailer with a 400kg horse
1) B liscence
2) unladen weight of jeep -1770
3) fully loaded weight of jeep - 2505
4) max towing weight of jeep - 2000
5) max trailer weight when loaded - 1900
6) max trailer weight when empty - 800


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## Vemth (29 July 2013)

Thank you for agreeing to help those of us new to horse trailers!

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1700kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2350kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - towing capacity 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 2600kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
 - 965kg

Plus would only ever carry one 14.2, say 550kg.  Car is an Evoque, trailer is hb506.

Thanks every so much for your help!


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## Vemth (30 July 2013)

tallyho! said:



			After the recent poll by perfect11s:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=489592

Many agreed a sticky would be very useful, but the format needed to change to avoid the confusion/arguments.

At the end of the above thread, ROG kindly agreed to help run a Towing Clinic for those who find the laws & limitations as confusing as I did.

*
Here is an example of how it will work:-*

"If a member on here was to provide me with the relevant info then I can say whether the set up is legal or not on either a B or BE licence and WHY

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

- ROG

"I'll start here first...

1. B+E Licence
2. 2410kg (this is kerbweight/unladen right?)
3. 3450kg (not too sure about this - what does it mean? Max load of vehicle?)
4. 2500kg (Capacity)
5. 1905kg (HB505)
6. 905kg

Thanks ROG. "

- tallyho!

"LEGAL

1 - max vehicle GVW of 3500 (you got 3450) and max trailer MAM of 3500 (you got 1905)
2 - correct - usually listed in handbook
3 - correct - number 2 (2410) with full load of 1040 (2410+1040=3450)
4 - max weight of empty trailer plus the load on it
5 minus 6 1905-905=1000 so 1000 is the max load that can be loaded onto the trailer

5 is much lower than 4 so a fully laden trailler weighing 1905 is well within the max towing capacity of 2500

Your max combination weight would be 5355 with that set up (3450+1905=5355) but you could go up to 5950 if you got a trailer with a MAM of at least 2500 (up to 3500)

ADD - the problem in getting a trailer with a greater MAM could be that it is heavier when empty so getting a 3500 MAM trailer which weighed 1500 empty still only allows you a max payload of 1000 because of the 2500 towing capacity limit for your vehicle

If you are happy with the trailer load capacity of 1000 then great! "

-ROG

Hope that makes sense and you find it useful. Any questions about using the clinic, please PM me so we can keep the clinic running as smoothly as possible.

Useful Links:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_10013073

http://www.uktow.com/towing capacity.asp?make=Nissan#tab1

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/index.htm

http://www.rotationuk.com/gbu0-display/tyre_load_ratings.html calculate KGS by multiplying the number of tyres

ROG's thread: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=475968

Click to expand...

[h=2]
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Re: Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic[/h]Thank you for agreeing to help those of us new to horse trailers!

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1700kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2350kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - towing capacity 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 2600kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
- 965kg

Plus would only ever carry one 14.2, say 550kg. Car is an Evoque, trailer is hb506.

Thanks every so much for your help! ​


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## ROG (3 August 2013)

BrandySnap46 said:



			Hi can you help with my Freelander & Bahill trailer with a 400kg horse
1) B liscence
2) unladen weight of jeep -1770
3) fully loaded weight of jeep - 2505
4) max towing weight of jeep - 2000
5) max trailer weight when loaded - 1900
6) max trailer weight when empty - 800
		
Click to expand...

The max trailer MAM for a B licence with a 2505 GVW vehicle is 995 kgs


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## ROG (3 August 2013)

Vemth said:



			[h=2]
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Re: Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic[/h]Thank you for agreeing to help those of us new to horse trailers!

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1700kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2350kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - towing capacity 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 2600kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
- 965kg

Plus would only ever carry one 14.2, say 550kg. Car is an Evoque, trailer is hb506.

Thanks every so much for your help! ​

Click to expand...

As 1800 is lower than 2600 then 1800 is the limit to go with

965 + 550 = 1515 so 285 spare


----------



## Vemth (5 August 2013)

ROG said:



			As 1800 is lower than 2600 then 1800 is the limit to go with

965 + 550 = 1515 so 285 spare
		
Click to expand...

That's brilliant, thanks very much Rog.  I'd been really confused, having read some information on the internet suggesting that the car had to be able to tow the MAM of the trailer in order to be legal, rather than me just ensuring that the trailer plus the load remained within the car's towing capacity, so the confirmation that it's not the former is very very helpful.
Thanks again!
Vici


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## ROG (5 August 2013)

Vemth said:



			I'd been really confused, having read some information on the internet suggesting that the car had to be able to tow the MAM of the trailer in order to be legal
		
Click to expand...

That is one of those internet myths doing the rounds

There is no law or rule stating that the manufacturers recommended towing capacity must be able to accommodate the MAM of the trailer and if you find someone saying there is then ask them to point out the law stating such

The VOSA link in my signature below also confirms what I have stated


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## Helen@muddyhooves (5 August 2013)

Hi Rog, thanks so much for doing this.
I've got an skoda octavia scout 4x4 and a pre 1997 car license.  Not got the horse box yet, so have put 1600kg & 900kg in for the trailer details.... but would appreciate any advise about wether I should be looking for something lighter.  Been trying to read all about this stuff but then my brain exploded - hoping you can set me right...

 B+ E
Kerbweight 1530 kg
GVW - 2155 kg
GTW - 1600 kg (braked)
MAM of trailer   1600                                         
Unladen trailer weight 900 kg.


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## ROG (5 August 2013)

Helen@muddyhooves said:



			Hi Rog, thanks so much for doing this.
I've got an skoda octavia scout 4x4 and a pre 1997 car license.  Not got the horse box yet, so have put 1600kg & 900kg in for the trailer details.... but would appreciate any advise about wether I should be looking for something lighter.  Been trying to read all about this stuff but then my brain exploded - hoping you can set me right...

 B+ E
Kerbweight 1530 kg
GVW - 2155 kg
GTW - 1600 kg (braked)
MAM of trailer   1600                                         
Unladen trailer weight 900 kg.
		
Click to expand...

Trailer MAM of 1600 seems low !!

Max weight to put in trailer will be 700 kgs
900+700=1600


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## Helen@muddyhooves (5 August 2013)

ROG said:



			Trailer MAM of 1600 seems low !!

Max weight to put in trailer will be 700 kgs
900+700=1600
		
Click to expand...


Ahh, well I did pluck that a bit.. if I wanted to tow one 600kg horse, with my skoda scout, what would the specifications of the trailer need to be (sorry to be asking this around the wrong way!).... as then I can use that as my guide for searching for a trailer!

Thanks Rog, this is really appreciated...


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## ROG (6 August 2013)

Helen@muddyhooves said:



			Ahh, well I did pluck that a bit.. if I wanted to tow one 600kg horse, with my skoda scout, what would the specifications of the trailer need to be (sorry to be asking this around the wrong way!).... as then I can use that as my guide for searching for a trailer!

Thanks Rog, this is really appreciated...
		
Click to expand...

If you know the towing capacity for the vehicle then you need the unladen weight of the trailer plus the weight of the horse or whatever you are going to put in the trailer to be no more than the towing capacity or trailer MAM when added together

Example - 
Towing capacity 1400
Trailer MAM 1600
Empty trailer 800
Horse/load 550
Total = 1350 so that leaves 50 spare


----------



## Helen@muddyhooves (6 August 2013)

Brilliant ROG, thanks heaps for that..


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## wolvesboy (6 August 2013)

Hi 

this is all new to me so not sure if I'm putting in all the right info but any help would be appreciated as it all seems a bit too confusing!!

My licence is pre-97 and appears to be B&BE. I have a Honda CRV with a max braked towing weight of 1500kg (this is the problem - the dealers told me it was 2000kg!). An ifor williams 506 which has an unladed weight of 920kg and a gross weight of 2600kg. Only plan on using it for one horse around 450/500 with tack and evrything else- a) is that all legally OK and b) would a higher max braked towing weight of the car make a difference as the car is likley to be changed before the horse!


----------



## ROG (6 August 2013)

wolvesboy said:



			Hi 

this is all new to me so not sure if I'm putting in all the right info but any help would be appreciated as it all seems a bit too confusing!!

My licence is pre-97 and appears to be B&BE. I have a Honda CRV with a max braked towing weight of 1500kg (this is the problem - the dealers told me it was 2000kg!). An ifor williams 506 which has an unladed weight of 920kg and a gross weight of 2600kg. Only plan on using it for one horse around 450/500 with tack and evrything else- a) is that all legally OK and b) would a higher max braked towing weight of the car make a difference as the car is likley to be changed before the horse!
		
Click to expand...

920+500=1420 which leaves 80 to spare with a 1500 limit

The higher the towing capacity, the easier it will cope


----------



## zidder (6 August 2013)

Hi,
could you help, need to know how much weight I can put on the trailer

1 = B+E
2 = 2085
3 = 3210
4 = 2600
5 = 3000
6 = 700

Vehicle Nissan Navara 

Thanks Gary


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## ROG (6 August 2013)

zidder said:



			Hi,
could you help, need to know how much weight I can put on the trailer

1 = B+E
2 = 2085
3 = 3210
4 = 2600
5 = 3000
6 = 700

Vehicle Nissan Navara 

Thanks Gary
		
Click to expand...

2600-700=1900
trailer can be loaded with 1900 kgs


----------



## zidder (6 August 2013)

ROG said:



			2600-700=1900
trailer can be loaded with 1900 kgs
		
Click to expand...

Thank you ROG, is this relevant, I had the car and trailer weighed,  vehicle fully fuelled trailer empty 3200kg


----------



## ROG (6 August 2013)

zidder said:



			Thank you ROG, is this relevant, I had the car and trailer weighed,  vehicle fully fuelled trailer empty 3200kg
		
Click to expand...

Not relevant

The 3210 GVW of the vehicle must not be exceeded

The 3000 MAM of the trailer must not be exceeded

The 2600 towing capacity should not be exceeded

The GTW of the vehicle must not be exceeded - the GTW is usually the 3210 GVW added to the 2600 towing capacity = 5810

The weight plate somewhere on the vehicle should state 3210 above 5810 followed by the two axle weight maximimums


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## zidder (6 August 2013)

ROG said:



			Not relevant

The 3210 GVW of the vehicle must not be exceeded

The 3000 MAM of the trailer must not be exceeded

The 2600 towing capacity should not be exceeded

The GTW of the vehicle must not be exceeded - the GTW is usually the 3210 GVW added to the 2600 towing capacity = 5810

The weight plate somewhere on the vehicle should state 3210 above 5810 followed by the two axle weight maximimums
		
Click to expand...


Thank you very much, great help


----------



## Capriole (9 August 2013)

ROG, I just saw a trade advert for X brand of trailer (wont copy the ad in full as don't want to advertise for them), and the details say: 

_Can be towed behind a 3.5T horsebox (or car), by anyone, without the need for a towing license. Includes, (blah blah)_. 


What's the legality of towing a laden trailer (it's a heavier type) behind a laden 3.5t horsebox? Interested to know how that works and what the requirements are.


And the bit where it says the trailer can be towed by anyone without the need for a towing license? That's not right is it?


----------



## Dizzydancer (9 August 2013)

Can anyone recommend places in staffordshire (stoke on Trent area pref) who does b e training. 
Thanks


----------



## ROG (9 August 2013)

Capriole said:



			ROG, I just saw a trade advert for X brand of trailer (wont copy the ad in full as don't want to advertise for them), and the details say: 

_Can be towed behind a 3.5T horsebox (or car), by anyone, without the need for a towing license. Includes, (blah blah)_. 


What's the legality of towing a laden trailer (it's a heavier type) behind a laden 3.5t horsebox? Interested to know how that works and what the requirements are.


And the bit where it says the trailer can be towed by anyone without the need for a towing license? That's not right is it?
		
Click to expand...

If the trailer is no more than 750 kgs plated MAM then they are correct

If a B licence holder is driving a vehicle where the GVW is 3.5 tonnes then the max trailer plated MAM is 750 kgs
For any trailer with a higher MAM then B+E is required

The 3.5 tonner must have a towing capacity capable of towing the actual weight of the trailer and its load at the time of towing


----------



## ROG (9 August 2013)

Dizzydancer said:



			Can anyone recommend places in staffordshire (stoke on Trent area pref) who does b e training. 
Thanks
		
Click to expand...

I would look in the first instance at LGV training schools as doing B+E training is childs play to their instructors


----------



## Capriole (9 August 2013)

ROG said:



			If the trailer is no more than 750 kgs plated MAM then they are correct
		
Click to expand...

I don't know those details but it's one of those bigger brands of trailers with the living in them, this is fitted with fridge, cooker, toilet, heating, seating/double bed and cameras.


----------



## Dizzydancer (9 August 2013)

Great thanks rog will look around.


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## Capriole (9 August 2013)

Capriole said:



			I don't know those details but it's one of those bigger brands of trailers with the living in them, this is fitted with fridge, cooker, toilet, heating, seating/double bed and cameras.
		
Click to expand...

I might get one of these models then, this sounds great.


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## ROG (9 August 2013)

I have seen 3.5 tonners towing 750 kg MTPLM caravans legally on a B licence

I have lso seen what looks like 3.5s, but could be 6 tonners, towing a twin horse trailer which would either require a B+E or C1+E licence to drive 

If a 3.5 GVW has a GTW of 5500 then it can tow 2000 on a B+E licence - the max towing capacity is usually the GTW minus the GVW 5500-3500=2000
The MAM of the trailer could be well over 2000 but as long as the actual weight of trailer + load is kept to no more than 2000 then its legal


----------



## MardyMare (13 August 2013)

hi - sorry if a stupid question - I have done a brief search and realised that I may need to read 134 pages to find my answer.  My question is about the load not the actual towing capacity.   We have been told and always have put heavier horse on the right however I am now travelling a combination where the smaller horse is having problems being on the left and stumbling and falling.  Put her back on right and she is fine.  Bigger horse has no problem which side she travels.   What is the rule regarding this?   Thanks for any help.


----------



## ROG (13 August 2013)

MardyMare said:



			hi - sorry if a stupid question - I have done a brief search and realised that I may need to read 134 pages to find my answer.  My question is about the load not the actual towing capacity.   We have been told and always have put heavier horse on the right however I am now travelling a combination where the smaller horse is having problems being on the left and stumbling and falling.  Put her back on right and she is fine.  Bigger horse has no problem which side she travels.   What is the rule regarding this?   Thanks for any help.
		
Click to expand...

As far as I know there are no rules for this but as the driver you are expected to ensure the load is stable and safe at all times so if what you are doing complies to those requirements then carry on


----------



## MardyMare (13 August 2013)

ROG said:



			As far as I know there are no rules for this but as the driver you are expected to ensure the load is stable and safe at all times so if what you are doing complies to those requirements then carry on
		
Click to expand...

Thank you.  I am going to weigh them properly - one is 15.2 and one 16.2 but the taller one is quite lean and the smaller one carrying a bit of weight so there may not be a lot in it.  Just from the back you would notice the taller horse more to be on the 'wrong side' so to speak.


----------



## Aleka81 (21 August 2013)

ROG said:



			That would be a Freelander 1 and others have said that some can be a little under powered when towing and can have other issues but if yours is ok then fine as you probably have a good one

Now to your question ...
There are a few examples of trailers that can be used with this vehicle for B licence towing in post number 999 of this thread but I will use one example

Ifor HB401 or the new version of that is 1600 MAM and 770 kgs unladen

Contact Ifor Williams to arrange to have it down plated from 1600 to 1450

When down plated to 1450 it will leave 680 kgs for the load/horse

1450 + 2040 = 3490 so under the 3500 B licence towing limit
Although you have not listed the kerb weight I believe 1450 is going to be under the kerb weight so that is ok
		
Click to expand...

Hi Rog
I went and did my trailer test so I now have B+E on my license  what does this change for towing with the freelander quoted before. If it changes anything at all... Thank you


----------



## ROG (21 August 2013)

Aleka81 said:



			Hi Rog
I went and did my trailer test so I now have B+E on my license  what does this change for towing with the freelander quoted before. If it changes anything at all... Thank you
		
Click to expand...

Now you have B+E you need to find the MAM of the trailer and the towing capacity for the vehicle then use the lower of those two as the maximum for the trailer when loaded


----------



## km-j (22 August 2013)

Wonder why you can help with my set up!
1 - B&E
2 - 1640kg
3 - 2080kg
4 - is this braked / unbraked weight
5 - 2600kg
6 - 920kg 

What does this leave me in terms of weight of horse/s if legal
Thanks
Kelly


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## ROG (22 August 2013)

km-j said:



			Wonder why you can help with my set up!
1 - B&E
2 - 1640kg
3 - 2080kg
4 - is this braked / unbraked weight
5 - 2600kg
6 - 920kg 

What does this leave me in terms of weight of horse/s if legal
Thanks
Kelly
		
Click to expand...

4 = braked weight (unbraked trailer can only be 750 kgs plated MAM maximum)

As I do not have braked weight this is how to work out max load/horse for trailer ...

Look at max braked weight/towing capacity of vehicle (????) and max trailer MAM (2600) then use the lower of those two figures

Deduct 920 from the lower figure above and that will leave you with the max load/horse for the trailer
This will be legal for a B+E


INFO ONLY .....
For B only towing then the trailer would need to be down plated by contacting the manufacturer from 2600 to a max of 1420 which would then leave 500 for the load/horse 1420-920=500


----------



## km-j (22 August 2013)

ROG said:



			4 = braked weight (unbraked trailer can only be 750 kgs plated MAM maximum)

As I do not have braked weight this is how to work out max load/horse for trailer ...

Look at max braked weight/towing capacity of vehicle (????) and max trailer MAM (2600) then use the lower of those two figures

Deduct 920 from the lower figure above and that will leave you with the max load/horse for the trailer
This will be legal for a B+E


INFO ONLY .....
For B only towing then the trailer would need to be down plated by contacting the manufacturer from 2600 to a max of 1420 which would then leave 500 for the load/horse 1420-920=500
		
Click to expand...


Hi 
Slightly confused.  The GTW of vehicle is 1800.  So If I deduct 920 from the 1800, leaves me with 880, is this the max load for the horse and tack etc
What would this be if I used a smaller trailer 401/403 (unladen weight: 767) and (MAM plated weight: 1600)?

B Only : If I had the singler trailer (401/403), using the same car would I still need to downplated and how much would that leave for the load/horse?

Thanks 

Kelly


----------



## ROG (22 August 2013)

km-j said:



			Hi 
Slightly confused.  The GTW of vehicle is 1800.  So If I deduct 920 from the 1800, leaves me with 880, is this the max load for the horse and tack etc
What would this be if I used a smaller trailer 401/403 (unladen weight: 767) and (MAM plated weight: 1600)?

B Only : If I had the singler trailer (401/403), using the same car would I still need to downplated and how much would that leave for the load/horse?

Thanks 

Kelly
		
Click to expand...

GTW would be 3880 which is GVW 2080 plus towing capacity 1800

B+E
As 1800 is lower than 2600 then it is 1800 we go by
1800 minus 920 = 880 for the horse/load which can be put in the trailer

B
I think those are 770 unladen/empty so down plating from their original 1600 to say 1400 would leave 630 for the horse/load


----------



## km-j (22 August 2013)

Dizzydancer said:



			Can anyone recommend places in staffordshire (stoke on Trent area pref) who does b e training. 
Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Hi, There is a place in Hixon, Weston Road, Stafford that is doing B&E lesson and test, really nice people and very reasonably priced.  I will be taking my test soon so lets cross fingers!
Thanks


----------



## km-j (22 August 2013)

ROG said:



			GTW would be 3880 which is GVW 2080 plus towing capacity 1800

B+E
As 1800 is lower than 2600 then it is 1800 we go by
1800 minus 920 = 880 for the horse/load which can be put in the trailer

B
I think those are 770 unladen/empty so down plating from their original 1600 to say 1400 would leave 630 for the horse/load
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, really helpful.......so both are legal, its just the matter of whether you want a singler trailer with weight of 630 (B Licence) or a double trailer with 880 (B&E Licence).
Kelly


----------



## ROG (22 August 2013)

km-j said:



			Thanks for that, really helpful.......so both are legal, its just the matter of whether you want a singler trailer with weight of 630 (B Licence) or a double trailer with 880 (B&E Licence).
Kelly
		
Click to expand...

The single trailer at 1600 could be loaded with 830 if the driver had B+E


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## Oriel (22 August 2013)

Hi, can you help with the following please? Does my son need to take an extra test to trail the following?

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE.....  B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle..... 2100
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle..... 3210
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle.... 2.6 tonnes
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres...... 1472
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "..... 1203

Thank you


----------



## ROG (22 August 2013)

Oriel said:



			Hi, can you help with the following please? Does my son need to take an extra test to trail the following?

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE.....  B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle..... 2100
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle..... 3210
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle.... 2.6 tonnes
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres...... 1472
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "..... 1203

Thank you
		
Click to expand...

With a GVW of 3210 the maximum trailer he can use is one with a plated MAM of no more than 750 kgs 

He can tow it under supervision as a B+E learner

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


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## mickey (23 August 2013)

Hello Rog

I am new to this as I have not bought a towing vehicle before. I'm looking at possibly getting a Freelander 2.
I've tried to work the figures out as best I can from your guide. It would be a freelander 2007 onwards, diesel manual.

I have B+E pre-'97 license
Unladen vehicle weight = 1770kg
GVW = 2505kg?
GTW = 2000kg
MAM = 2700kg (Ifor Williams 510)
Trailer Weight = 1000kg

Assuming I wish to transport one 600kg horse plus it's tack and rugs, is this vehicle capable of towing to my requirements? I am presuming that 2 x 600kg horses are way off the mark!

Any help you can give me in my ignorance, would be greatly appreciated.
Sam.


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## ROG (23 August 2013)

mickey said:



			Hello Rog

I am new to this as I have not bought a towing vehicle before. I'm looking at possibly getting a Freelander 2.
I've tried to work the figures out as best I can from your guide. It would be a freelander 2007 onwards, diesel manual.

I have B+E pre-'97 license
Unladen vehicle weight = 1770kg
GVW = 2505kg?
GTW = 2000kg
MAM = 2700kg (Ifor Williams 510)
Trailer Weight = 1000kg

Assuming I wish to transport one 600kg horse plus it's tack and rugs, is this vehicle capable of towing to my requirements? I am presuming that 2 x 600kg horses are way off the mark!
		
Click to expand...

I will assume that the GTW should be towing capacity of 2000
The GTW would be 4505 (2505+2000=4505)

With 2000 towing capacity and 2700 MAM the lower of those two is used = 2000

2000 minus the 1000 trailer weight = 1000 for the load/horses

2x600 horses = 1200 so too much


INFO -
For B only licence towing the maximum plated trailer MAM would be 995 kgs which is of no use for any horse trailer


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## mickey (23 August 2013)

Thanks very much.

So I am right in thinking that using the above mentioned trailer and car, I should be able to tow one 600kg horse, plus, let's say 200kg equipment if I want to be over the top! This would still be legal?

As an aside, can you recommend a 4x4 that you would say is excellent for towing? I'm starting to look at other makes/models in case I decide I need something that can tow 2 horses..............

Many thanks


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## ROG (23 August 2013)

mickey said:



			Thanks very much.

So I am right in thinking that using the above mentioned trailer and car, I should be able to tow one 600kg horse, plus, let's say 200kg equipment if I want to be over the top! This would still be legal?

As an aside, can you recommend a 4x4 that you would say is excellent for towing? I'm starting to look at other makes/models in case I decide I need something that can tow 2 horses..............

Many thanks 

Click to expand...

I know nothing about different vehicles only the weight/licence issues but the last link in my signature below might be useful

800 kg loaded into the trailer would leave 200 kg spare


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## Sportshorseindisguis (28 August 2013)

Hi Rog

I wonder if you may be able to comment on the below vehicle please- I'm afraid the information is a little unclear but hopefully it will be enough.....

1) licence B only
2) unladen vehicle weight 1800KG, short wheel base ford transit
3) GVW 2800kg
4) GTW 3500kg
5) 1000kg (trailer is a outdoor bar facility rather than your usual horse trailer queries!)
6) unladen trailer weight 850kg and 1000kg loaded


Sorry we're not very clear, there has been much discussion and we're none the wiser!

Look forward to hearing from you  thank you for your help


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## ROG (28 August 2013)

Sportshorseindisguis said:



			Hi Rog

I wonder if you may be able to comment on the below vehicle please- I'm afraid the information is a little unclear but hopefully it will be enough.....

1) licence B only
2) unladen vehicle weight 1800KG, short wheel base ford transit
3) GVW 2800kg
4) GTW 3500kg
5) 1000kg (trailer is a outdoor bar facility rather than your usual horse trailer queries!)
6) unladen trailer weight 850kg and 1000kg loaded


Sorry we're not very clear, there has been much discussion and we're none the wiser!

Look forward to hearing from you  thank you for your help
		
Click to expand...

GVW 2800 + MAM 1000 = 3800 which is 300 above the limit for B licence towing

I know those figures from the Transit forum and if I remember correctly the transit handbook and/or V5 keepers document states that the maximum towing capacity is 700 kgs so even if the trailer is at 850 then it has exceeded that limit !

Get a trailer with a plated MAM of 700 max and then all will be legal for the B towing driver and the vehicle


ADD ....
With a B+E licence or under B+E learner rules
If the transit does not state a max towing limit of 700 kgs then the GTW can be used which means that the driver can have the van loaded to 2500 and the trailer loaded to 1000

With only a B licence
If the transit does not state a max towing limit of 700 kgs then the GTW can be used which means that the driver can have the van loaded to 2500 and the trailer loaded to 1000 BUT the transit would need to be down plated from 2800 to 2500 GVW which in turn means that instead of a 1000 payload 2800-1800=1000 it would have a 700 max payload 2500-1800=700 either with or without the trailer


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## Sportshorseindisguis (28 August 2013)

Oh dear-  Thank you for the clarity, we were going round in circles at the office! 

Great having your help and advice on hand, many thanks again Rog


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## ROG (28 August 2013)

Sportshorseindisguis said:



			Oh dear-  Thank you for the clarity, we were going round in circles at the office! 

Great having your help and advice on hand, many thanks again Rog



Click to expand...

If the trailer can be lightened to 700 when empty and then loaded on site with goods from the van then that could work if it has been made by a manufacturer who is still in business and is willing to down plate it from 1000 to 700


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## km-j (29 August 2013)

Thanks ROG for all you help, I'll be back soon for some more towing advice.  Just to say to members that I passed my B&E test today with 'advancedlgv.com' in Hixon (Stafford). Absolutely brilliant and would recommend that this is a must!!! 
Kelly


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## ROG (30 August 2013)

km-j said:



			I passed my B&E test today
		
Click to expand...


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## tanyajade (1 September 2013)

Oh dear I never thought of any legal implications regarding towing a horse trailer!
So, I passed my test in 2003. I'd like a double horse trailer. What on earth are my options? Which trailer which car? 
Thanks


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## ROG (2 September 2013)

tanyajade said:



			Oh dear I never thought of any legal implications regarding towing a horse trailer!
So, I passed my test in 2003. I'd like a double horse trailer. What on earth are my options? Which trailer which car? 
Thanks
		
Click to expand...

If you want to tow 2 average sized horses then you will need B+E


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## 1abs (2 September 2013)

New poster here!

I havent got all the figures on me but..

On a B licence, would a 1991 Volvo 940 1986cc auto legally tow an Ifor Williams HB401? Trailer was manufactured in 2000.


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## ROG (2 September 2013)

1abs said:



			New poster here!

I havent got all the figures on me but..

On a B licence, would a 1991 Volvo 940 1986cc auto legally tow an Ifor Williams HB401? Trailer was manufactured in 2000.
		
Click to expand...

Please find the figures for the vehicle which will be on the V5 or on a plate on the vehicle usually under the bonnet or hiden in a door frame - I need the top two figures on the plate please

More than likely the trailer will need down plating 

I reckon you might be in luck for this to work on a B licence


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## tanyajade (2 September 2013)

ROG said:



			If you want to tow 2 average sized horses then you will need B+E
		
Click to expand...

Thank you... 

Or a light trailer (750kg and lighter) Is that right? As long as the trailer and horses, don't outweigh my vehicle...and the combined weight of everything is under 3500kg? Have I understood that right? x


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## ROG (2 September 2013)

tanyajade said:



			Thank you... 

Or a light trailer (750kg and lighter) Is that right? As long as the trailer and horses, don't outweigh my vehicle...and the combined weight of everything is under 3500kg? Have I understood that right? x
		
Click to expand...

Any trailer not more than 750 kgs plated MAM (not actual weight) does not need B+E

The trailer not being heavier than vehicle rule was revoked on 19/01/2013

If by combined weight you mean vehicle GVW + trailer plated MAM then yes but if you mean actual weight then no


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## tanyajade (2 September 2013)

Thanks a lot. 
I've also seen on the internet, that as a B,licence holder, you automatically get a provisional B+E licence. Which means I could tow a 2 horse trailer, all in all exceeding the 3500kg, as long as I display L plates, and have someone with the B+E licence with me in the car? Is that right? x


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## ROG (2 September 2013)

tanyajade said:



			Thanks a lot. 
I've also seen on the internet, that as a B,licence holder, you automatically get a provisional B+E licence. Which means I could tow a 2 horse trailer, all in all exceeding the 3500kg, as long as I display L plates, and have someone with the B+E licence with me in the car? Is that right? x
		
Click to expand...

yes

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


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## tanyajade (2 September 2013)

Thank you, that may be the best way around it. Nowfor this B+E learner insurance, bet that'll cost something! x


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## ROG (2 September 2013)

tanyajade said:



			Thank you, that may be the best way around it. Nowfor this B+E learner insurance, bet that'll cost something! x
		
Click to expand...

Inform insurer and they say thanks for informing us - thats it no extra cost for most I have spoken to


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## tanyajade (2 September 2013)

Thank you Rog, you are the MAN ! x


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## 1abs (2 September 2013)

1abs said:



			New poster here!

I havent got all the figures on me but..

On a B licence, would a 1991 Volvo 940 1986cc auto legally tow an Ifor Williams HB401? Trailer was manufactured in 2000.
		
Click to expand...

0570515V
YV1945277M2021977

1950kg

1- 0910kg
2-1070kg

(taken from the plate under my bonnet)


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## ROG (2 September 2013)

1abs said:



			1950kg

1- 0910kg
2-1070kg

(taken from the plate under my bonnet)
		
Click to expand...

1950 is the GVW  of the Volvo

No idea what the towing capacity could be though as no GTW figure is listed - maybe the towing capacity or GTW is on the V5 document ???

Max trailer plated MAM is 1550 for a 1950 GVW regarding B licence towing


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## ROG (2 September 2013)

I found a thread on the Volvo forum in regards to towing with a 940 = http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=83125


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## 1abs (2 September 2013)

ROG said:



			I found a thread on the Volvo forum in regards to towing with a 940 = http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=83125

Click to expand...

Thanks ROG will take a look, looking at the V5 now and under vehicle details it doesn't say anything about weights etc


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## ROG (2 September 2013)

1abs said:



			Thanks ROG will take a look, looking at the V5 now and under vehicle details it doesn't say anything about weights etc
		
Click to expand...

you might get more weights if you join that forum and ask then as they seem to know their stuff for volvo


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## Dexydoodle (5 September 2013)

Ok maybe a random question abd probably won't work but im hoping to get myself a little surfbus (something like a vw t4 so basically a short wb van) and was wondering whether it is possible (legally and practically) to tow with that kind of vehicle or whether im in cloud cuckoo land for thinking I can findawnway around buying a 4 x4! (Will need to do my trailer test either way)


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## ROG (5 September 2013)

Dexydoodle said:



			Ok maybe a random question abd probably won't work but im hoping to get myself a little surfbus (something like a vw t4 so basically a short wb van) and was wondering whether it is possible (legally and practically) to tow with that kind of vehicle or whether im in cloud cuckoo land for thinking I can findawnway around buying a 4 x4! (Will need to do my trailer test either way)
		
Click to expand...

http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=100116


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## Dexydoodle (5 September 2013)

This is not good I don't understand a word of that! So roughly 2000kg fully laden or am i totally confused?  How likely is that with trailer plus 500kg horse.  And do u have to take into account petrol and whatnot still like for a lorry?


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## ROG (5 September 2013)

Dexydoodle said:



			This is not good I don't understand a word of that! So roughly 2000kg fully laden or am i totally confused?  How likely is that with trailer plus 500kg horse.  And do u have to take into account petrol and whatnot still like for a lorry?
		
Click to expand...

If the vwt4 2000 towing capacity is correct and your trailer MAM is at least 2000 then the empty weight of your trailer plus the load that is in it must not exceed 2000 kgs

If the trailer MAM is less than 2000 then the lower trailer MAM figure is the maximum and not the 2000 towing capacity

fuel etc goes in the vehicle so that comes under the vehicle GVW not the trailer MAM


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## Dexydoodle (5 September 2013)

ROG said:



			If the vwt4 2000 towing capacity is correct and your trailer MAM is at least 2000 then the empty weight of your trailer plus the load that is in it must not exceed 2000 kgs

If the trailer MAM is less than 2000 then the lower trailer MAM figure is the maximum and not the 2000 towing capacity

fuel etc goes in the vehicle so that comes under the vehicle GVW not the trailer MAM
		
Click to expand...

Fantastic, thank you!  That makes sense - now to do some investigating!


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## Javabb94 (11 September 2013)

Hi 

On 'L' plates towing a horse trailer - are you allowed to tow with a horse in and on the motorway?

Sorry if these are stupid questions but just checking 

Thanks


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## ROG (11 September 2013)

Javabb94 said:



			On 'L' plates towing a horse trailer - are you allowed to tow with a horse in and on the motorway?
		
Click to expand...

Yes


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## Javabb94 (11 September 2013)

Thanks ROG! 

I towed horse on L's and motorway to vets and someone said I wasn't allowed a horse in or on the motorway so panicking a little bit!
The information differs all over the Internet!


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## ROG (11 September 2013)

Javabb94 said:



			Thanks ROG! 

I towed horse on L's and motorway to vets and someone said I wasn't allowed a horse in or on the motorway so panicking a little bit!
The information differs all over the Internet!
		
Click to expand...

From this november the DSA state that a trailer for B+E test must have either 600 kgs of sand or a 600 litre water IBC container in it so all the training will also be done with this weight in the trailer on all types of roads including motorways


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## Javabb94 (11 September 2013)

ROG said:



			From this november the DSA state that a trailer for B+E test must have either 600 kgs of sand or a 600 litre water IBC container in it so all the training will also be done with this weight in the trailer on all types of roads including motorways
		
Click to expand...

Thanks - makes sense!

Phew glad I'm allowed horse in!


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## velvet2011 (12 September 2013)

Hi, am sitting my trailer test soon and wondered if it was worth persuading my in-laws to get a tow bar on their range rover evoque, but not sure its designed for the job...
1/ driver B + E (hopefully soon!)
2/ car unladen weight: 1,640kg   
3/ car gross vehicle weight: 2,350kg
4/ car towing capacity: 1,800kg
5/ trailer max gross weight: 2584kg 
6/ trailer unladen weight: 1000kg

Thanks!


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## ROG (12 September 2013)

velvet2011 said:



			Hi, am sitting my trailer test soon and wondered if it was worth persuading my in-laws to get a tow bar on their range rover evoque, but not sure its designed for the job...
1/ driver B + E (hopefully soon!)
2/ car unladen weight: 1,640kg   
3/ car gross vehicle weight: 2,350kg
4/ car towing capacity: 1,800kg
5/ trailer max gross weight: 2584kg 
6/ trailer unladen weight: 1000kg

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

Under B+E licence or provisional rules you can load the trailer with 800 kgs

1800-1000=800


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## velvet2011 (12 September 2013)

ROG said:



			Under B+E licence or provisional rules you can load the trailer with 800 kgs

1800-1000=800
		
Click to expand...

Thanks so much ROG. Hmm might get something bigger to tow two if needed.
Appreciated.


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## ROG (12 September 2013)

velvet2011 said:



			Thanks so much ROG. Hmm might get something bigger to tow two if needed.
Appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

A towing capacity of around 2500 would be more useful for towing two horses plus other bits in the trailer


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## sakry (12 September 2013)

Great! May I send you a PM?


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## ROG (13 September 2013)

sakry said:



			Great! May I send you a PM?
		
Click to expand...

PM switched off so please post question here


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## ROG (22 September 2013)

Paint Me Proud said:



			Help needed ROG!

Have looked on the gov.uk website with regards to my ability to legally tow. I have noticed they have appeared to downscale the requirements but I cant quite work out how.

Can you let me know if I still need to take a towing test.

Car - Land Rover Discovery 4
Trailer - Ifor 510 hunter
Weight of horse - approx 600kg

License held since 2001

Help!!!
		
Click to expand...

As the Disco 4 has a GVW of well over 3000 kgs then the max trailer plated MAM is only 750 kgs on a B licence

Check out post numbers 999 and 1000 of this thread for more info

The extra rule for B licence towing of a trailer over 750 kgs plated MAM is ....
The vehicle GVW added to the trailer plated MAM must not total more than 3500 kgs

GVW and MAM mean the same thing = the max they can legally weigh when full loaded


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## Ginge Crosby (22 September 2013)

I apologise in advance for my total ignorance - Looking at buying my first towing vehicle/trailer combination and wanted a couple of pointers of what to lookout for. I won't be towing until i've done my b+e test. I am pretty much clueless as to what to be looking for, on a bit of a budget too. I was looking at 2nd hand freelanders as they seem to be within budget (will be taking mechanic friend along with me to make sure i'm not being 'had') but have just seen on one ad that the max towing weight is 750kg - surely that can't be right? If the trailer weighs that much I wouldn't be able to tow horse plus equipment too? 
So what are the best to vehicle/trailer combinations to drive on a b+e?


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## ROG (22 September 2013)

Ginge Crosby said:



			I apologise in advance for my total ignorance - Looking at buying my first towing vehicle/trailer combination and wanted a couple of pointers of what to lookout for. I won't be towing until i've done my b+e test. I am pretty much clueless as to what to be looking for, on a bit of a budget too. I was looking at 2nd hand freelanders as they seem to be within budget (will be taking mechanic friend along with me to make sure i'm not being 'had') but have just seen on one ad that the max towing weight is 750kg - surely that can't be right? If the trailer weighs that much I wouldn't be able to tow horse plus equipment too? 
So what are the best to vehicle/trailer combinations to drive on a b+e?
		
Click to expand...

Best I can help with is to look at the last link in my signature below

750 kgs will be max unbraked trailer but braked trailers will be much higher

The more you do yourself the easier the test will be if you need the B+E ....
*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


----------



## Ginge Crosby (24 September 2013)

Thanks for your help ROG, had looked at that thread earlier. Will get out with L plates and correct supervision as much as possible before taking the test. 
As for buying, Mechanic Friend has veto'd freelanders and my other favourite the jeep cherokee as he says they cost a fortune when they break, so he's pushing me towards susuki vitara and rav4's but i'm not convinced either would be man enough to tow horses with. Will do some more googlework before making a decision.


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## ROG (24 September 2013)

Ginge Crosby said:



			Thanks for your help ROG, had looked at that thread earlier. Will get out with L plates and correct supervision as much as possible before taking the test. 
As for buying, Mechanic Friend has veto'd freelanders and my other favourite the jeep cherokee as he says they cost a fortune when they break, so he's pushing me towards susuki vitara and rav4's but i'm not convinced either would be man enough to tow horses with. Will do some more googlework before making a decision.
		
Click to expand...

If starting from a position of needing a vehicle and trailer for just one horse then looking into a legal B towing set up might be an idea

Many with just a B licence on here tow a lightweight trailer (perhaps downplated) with one horse with something like a Nissan Xtrail


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## Orchardbeck (3 October 2013)

Hi ROG, this has probably been asked many times before but this thread is 135 odd pages long now! 

We have an IW 506 trailer which I think weighs in at 900 ish kgs, pony is 400kgs. I have a B licence with B+e provisional. Without taking the test, are there any circumstances where I could get away with driving this load with a lighter vehicle (we currently use a Navara or Peugeot 5008 which I know would be illegal without a supervisor) Do I have to have the trailer downplated or anything? 

Out of interest, what kind of vehicles do people use on a B licence set up - we're looking at getting a 4x4 as a family car.

I'm ashamed - I should know the rules better as I used to work in marketing for a big lgv driver training company! It just seems people are able to be a bit more creative with the newer rules than they were when they first came out.


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## ROG (3 October 2013)

Orchardbeck said:



			Hi ROG, this has probably been asked many times before but this thread is 135 odd pages long now! 

We have an IW 506 trailer which I think weighs in at 900 ish kgs, pony is 400kgs. I have a B licence with B+e provisional. Without taking the test, are there any circumstances where I could get away with driving this load with a lighter vehicle (we currently use a Navara or Peugeot 5008 which I know would be illegal without a supervisor) Do I have to have the trailer downplated or anything? 

Out of interest, what kind of vehicles do people use on a B licence set up - we're looking at getting a 4x4 as a family car.

I'm ashamed - I should know the rules better as I used to work in marketing for a big lgv driver training company! It just seems people are able to be a bit more creative with the newer rules than they were when they first came out.
		
Click to expand...

IW HB506
Max gross weight 2600 kg (MAM)
Unladen weight 920.00 kg 

The extra rule for towing a trailer over 750 kgs MAM on a B licence is this -
Vehicle GVW (MAM) added to trailer MAM must not total more than 3500 kgs

If you contacted IW to get this down plated (at little or no cost) to say 1400 so it could easily take your horse (920+400=1320) but always need a bit of extra - 80 kgs in this example - then you would need a vehicle with a GVW of no more than 2100 kgs
2100+1400=3500

The trailer can always be up-plated in the future by contacting IW in the same way it was down plated


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## ROG (3 October 2013)

"Out of interest, what kind of vehicles do people use on a B licence set up - we're looking at getting a 4x4 as a family car."

BATESON LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
CHEVAL LIGHT HORSE TRAILER
IFOR LIGHT HORSE TRAILER

Contact trailer manufacturer to have trailer downplated if needed (free or very little cost)

Toyota Rav 4 (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
GVW = 1785
Max towing weight = 1500
Max trailer plated MAM = 1715 kgs


Nissan X trail (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
GVW = 2050
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs

Kia Sportage (AWD) with these specifications/dimensions
GVW = 2140
Towing = 1600
Max trailer plated MAM = 1360 kgs

FREELANDER 1 (2001 - 2005)
GVW = 2040
Towing = 1800
Max trailer plated MAM = 1460 kgs

SUBARU FORRESTER (4X4) 
GVW = 2050 maximum
Towing = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1450 kgs

Skoda Yeti (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
GVW = 2070
Towing capacity = 2000
Max trailer plated MAM = 1430 kgs 

Suzuki vitara (4X4) with these specifications/dimensions
GVW = 1950
Towing = 1850
Max trailer plated MAM = 1550 kgs


Deduct trailer unladen weight from max trailer plated weight to get maximum load/horse weight for the trailer
Example:- Nissan (1450) minus IFOR HB403 (770 appx) = load/horse 680 kgs

Many standard saloon/estate cars can also be used for B licence towing with a horse trailer.
The types of surfaces being driven on must be considered if not using a 4X4


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## SusanT (4 October 2013)

Hello hope you can help.  Would I be legal to tow on a B licence with a subaru forrester
Mgv 2080kg
Kerb weight 1556kg

Trailer - ifor William h403
Unladen 767kg
Mgv 1600kg
Pony 500kg

If I down plate trailer to 1400 will this be legal with only a b licence.

Thanks you for your help


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## ROG (5 October 2013)

SusanT said:



			Hello hope you can help.  Would I be legal to tow on a B licence with a subaru forrester
Mgv 2080kg
Kerb weight 1556kg

Trailer - ifor William h403
Unladen 767kg
Mgv 1600kg
Pony 500kg

If I down plate trailer to 1400 will this be legal with only a b licence.

Thanks you for your help 

Click to expand...

Yes it will be legal if down plated to 1400
2080+1400=3480 which is 20 under the max limit


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## coffeeandabagel (7 October 2013)

Hi Rog, I am struggling to find the max towing weight for my car -  KIA SORENTO XS CRDI (138)2497cc, 5 door, 2003 - 2006, Diesel, ManualI have an Iffor Williams 510 which I believe weighs 1000kgI am sure I the manual says 2800 but cant fnd that online anywhere to confirm - jusy lower limits!Can you help me please?C


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## SusanT (7 October 2013)

Hi Rog thanks for replying.  I thought I'd be ok but just wanted a 2nd opinion as it seemed too good to be true.  Freelander is now getting traded in.  Thank you


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## ROG (8 October 2013)

coffeeandabagel said:



			Hi Rog, I am struggling to find the max towing weight for my car -  KIA SORENTO XS CRDI (138)2497cc, 5 door, 2003 - 2006, Diesel, ManualI have an Iffor Williams 510 which I believe weighs 1000kgI am sure I the manual says 2800 but cant fnd that online anywhere to confirm - jusy lower limits!Can you help me please?C
		
Click to expand...

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-figures/kia/sorento/station-wagon-2003/24889/
Braked Towing Weight 2800 kg

HB510
Max gross weight 2584 kg 
Unladen weight 1000.00 kg

Tha max you can load into your trailer is 1584 kgs

B+E licence or provisional required


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## coffeeandabagel (8 October 2013)

thanks Rog, thats interesting that its the trailer that is going to limit my towing capability. I had assumed it would be the car.I have two 17.hh horses which I havent weighrd but estimate thay are at least 700 each. With water carriers on as well I wont have much if any spare. Do you or anyone else know of lighter trailers that will take the beasties and give me a bit more leeway?I am old enough not to worry about my license at least.


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## ROG (8 October 2013)

coffeeandabagel said:



			thanks Rog, thats interesting that its the trailer that is going to limit my towing capability. I had assumed it would be the car.I have two 17.hh horses which I havent weighrd but estimate thay are at least 700 each. With water carriers on as well I wont have much if any spare. Do you or anyone else know of lighter trailers that will take the beasties and give me a bit more leeway?I am old enough not to worry about my license at least.
		
Click to expand...

For B+E licence drivers the simple rule is to use the LOWER of these two ...
Vehicle towing capacity - 2800 in your case
or
Trailer MAM - 2584 in your case

Using the lower figure you then deduct the empty weight of the trailer which leaves the amount which can be loaded into it


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## coffeeandabagel (8 October 2013)

sorry Rog - more questions. What about the weight in the car - could I put the water in the car instead or does additional weight count where ever it is? Is that a numpty question?


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## ROG (9 October 2013)

coffeeandabagel said:



			sorry Rog - more questions. What about the weight in the car - could I put the water in the car instead or does additional weight count where ever it is? Is that a numpty question?
		
Click to expand...

The car has a GVW
The trailer has a MAM
Each of those is a seperate weight limit

GVW and MAM mean the same thing - the maximum each can weigh when fully loaded

If you take 50 kgs out of the trailer and put it in the car then that weight gets transferred from trailer MAM to car GVW


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## Gryfiss (23 October 2013)

Hi rog could do with a bit of help please saw in one of ur older post that you could do a test with a b licence set up is that still right saw this https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car-trailer-practical-test and didn't know if it had altered was thinking of going with my set up and doing test then if I fail drive off and keep rebooking till i do  currently have a 403 down plated trailer with a passat estate . Thanks x


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## ROG (24 October 2013)

Gryfiss said:



			Hi rog could do with a bit of help please saw in one of ur older post that you could do a test with a b licence set up is that still right saw this https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car-trailer-practical-test and didn't know if it had altered was thinking of going with my set up and doing test then if I fail drive off and keep rebooking till i do  currently have a 403 down plated trailer with a passat estate . Thanks x
		
Click to expand...

Yes you can still do it with a B licence towing set up if the vehicle and trailer comply with the test rules BUT from 15 Nov the trailer will need to be loaded with a minimum type of load as specified in that link so - can you get something like a 600kg water IBC or sand bags and can your trailer take that weight ??


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## Gryfiss (24 October 2013)

Thanks rog yep I have enough room how many gallons of water would that work out to be quite a few I'm guessing :/


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## Gryfiss (24 October 2013)

Also is there any 4 wheel drives u can recommend for b licence weighing under 2080 towing ability of 1420 which are under 3yrs old I'm really struggling now auto trader don't put all the spec and dimension on !!


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## ROG (24 October 2013)

Gryfiss said:



			Thanks rog yep I have enough room how many gallons of water would that work out to be quite a few I'm guessing :/
		
Click to expand...

Not sure in gallons but if you get hold of a 600 kgs IBC and fill it then that will do
Cannot use a 1000kgs and fill it to 600 because the IBC used must be filled to almost capacity to stop the sloshing effect

600 kgs of Sandbags can be used but each bag must have a weight stamp on it and I cannot find such on the internet


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## coffeeandabagel (24 October 2013)

Hi thanks Rog for your previous help. I had the horses weighed today and one is 701kg and the other 675kg - based on the calculations you did I have just about 200kg margin. Umm, not much!


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## ROG (24 October 2013)

coffeeandabagel said:



			Hi thanks Rog for your previous help. I had the horses weighed today and one is 701kg and the other 675kg - based on the calculations you did I have just about 200kg margin. Umm, not much!
		
Click to expand...

That is a good margin - look at it another way - its 10% of a 2000 limit


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## tiggipop (31 October 2013)

apologies - have been trying to find the correct numbers to fill in but am failing !

any chance you could help fill in the gaps?

towing vehicle will be bmw x5 (year 2005) model X5 sport D auto.  I have the log book and can see that total permissible towable mass - braked is 2700kg

trailer is ifor Williams hb510r   - mam 2700kg  unladen 1000kg

1      my license is b + e
2      unladen empty weight of car                             ?
3      GVW of car  (is this max permissible mass? )   2695
4      GTW of car   (is this the braked figure?)           2700
5      plated MAM of trailer                                      2700
6      unladen weight of trailer                                 1000



will only be travelling one of the big horses at  a time and guess the weight will be around 700kg
would it be ok to travel 2 of the smaller ones at around 600kg each?

thankyou


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## ROG (31 October 2013)

tiggipop said:



			apologies - have been trying to find the correct numbers to fill in but am failing !

any chance you could help fill in the gaps?

towing vehicle will be bmw x5 (year 2005) model X5 sport D auto.  I have the log book and can see that total permissible towable mass - braked is 2700kg

trailer is ifor Williams hb510r   - mam 2700kg  unladen 1000kg

1      my license is b + e
2      unladen empty weight of car                             ?
3      GVW of car  (is this max permissible mass? )   2695
4      GTW of car   (is this the braked figure?)           2700
5      plated MAM of trailer                                      2700
6      unladen weight of trailer                                 1000



will only be travelling one of the big horses at  a time and guess the weight will be around 700kg
would it be ok to travel 2 of the smaller ones at around 600kg each?

thankyou
		
Click to expand...

GVW is the max the car can be when fully loaded
GTW is the max actual weight of both car and trailer when weighed together

I cannot see 2700 being the GTW but I reckon it might be the max towing capacity as stated in the logbook

GVW + towing capacity usually = GTW so look at plate on car and I'll bet it says 5395


You can load 1700 into the trailer and be legal for weight and you B+E licence


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## ROG (31 October 2013)

I also noticed that the max towing capacity is 2700 and the trailer MAM is also 2700 so in your case there is no issue about using the lower of the two figures

Had your trailer been 3500 MAM then the 2700 towing limit would be the figure to use so 1700 for trailer load

Had the trailer MAM been 2300 then that would be the figure to use so 1300 for trailer load


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## tiggipop (31 October 2013)

Thankyou


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## PeggyPatch (31 October 2013)

Hi Rog, looking into possibly towing a small trailer possibly a bateson derby at around 675kg or an ifor hb403 for 1 pony who weighs 450-500kg with a kia ceed cdr diesel with a curb weight of 1468kg. Is that possible or not? Also what license do you need to tow with?  I have every plans of having lessons but wanted to know if id need to pass a test as well.  Thanks


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## ROG (31 October 2013)

PeggyPatch said:



			Hi Rog, looking into possibly towing a small trailer possibly a bateson derby at around 675kg or an ifor hb403 for 1 pony who weighs 450-500kg with a kia ceed cdr diesel with a curb weight of 1468kg. Is that possible or not? Also what license do you need to tow with?  I have every plans of having lessons but wanted to know if id need to pass a test as well.  Thanks
		
Click to expand...

http://www.kiaownersclub.co.uk/models/ceed/cee_d_technical_data.asp
The 1.6L diesel auto is 1468 kerb weight  so I assume that is your model with a GVW of 1820 and a towing capacity of 1400 but your handbook and plate on vehicle will confirm that

For B licence towing if it is those specs above then you can have  HB401/403 with a MAM of 1600 and empty weight of about 800

1600 + 1820 = 3420 which is under the 3500 limit

As the max towing limit is 1400 and 200 less than the 1600 MAM of the trailer then the 1400 is the figure used

1400 less 800 = 600 so you can load 600 into that particular trailer

The change in law on 19/01/3013 makes things much easier now because the extra rule for towing a trailer over 750 kgs MAM on a B licence is now - 
Vehicle GVW added to trailer MAM must not total more than 3500 kgs

The kerb weigh rule was revoked on 19/01/2013


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## PeggyPatch (31 October 2013)

Great thank you for all your help.

If i got a bateson Derby which can tow two horses with an unlaiden weight of 675kg and a max gross weight of 1700kg. Would I have to get it's plate changed? I'm only planning to take my pony in it and really don't understand the plating requirements. 

Thanks again for all your help this is so useful


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## ROG (31 October 2013)

PeggyPatch said:



			Great thank you for all your help.

If i got a bateson Derby which can tow two horses with an unlaiden weight of 675kg and a max gross weight of 1700kg. Would I have to get it's plate changed? I'm only planning to take my pony in it and really don't understand the plating requirements. 

Thanks again for all your help this is so useful 

Click to expand...

1700 + 1820 = 3520 which is 20 over so the trailer would need to be down plated to a max of 1680

You still have the 1400 limit so 1400 - 675 = 725 so the total weight put into the trailer would be 725

All this is still assuming the GVW and towing capacity figures are correct for your vehicle


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## PeggyPatch (31 October 2013)

Yes those figures are correct for the car.

Thank you for all your help on this. It's been really useful as I have tried to work it out previously myself but really wanted to make sure I was on the right lines.

Thanks


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## ROG (31 October 2013)

For those wondering ....

Under the previous 2013 rules for B licence towing there was a rule where the trailer MAM could not be more than the vehicle kerb weight but that was revoked for all B licence holders on 19/01/2013

Under the old rules a 1600 MAM trailer would need to be down plated for a vehicle with a kerb of 1468 but not now

The EU parliament made this happen and in most cases like the above a max towing capacity prevents the trailer from being more than kerb weight

This leaves the one extra rule for the B licence towing of a trailer where the MAM is over 750 kgs ...
Vehicle GVW added to trailer MAM must not total more than 3500 kgs

GVW and MAM mean the same thing - the max they can legally weigh when fully loaded


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## ROG (1 November 2013)

INTERESTING & SILLY according to me and the DSA ....

From January 2014 those with a manual B licence can take an auto test and have that as manual EXCEPT B+E !!

Apparently the EU directive covers all C and D categories but its up to the UK Govt (DfT) re B+E

NI already gives B+E manual for passing B+E auto if the driver already has manual B so that proves it is not an EU thing in regards to B+E

Emailed my MP to see why this is

PS - if got manual B and then pass C1 auto and C1+E auto it will give the driver C1, C1+E and B+E manual


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## Moomin499ck (5 November 2013)

Wonder if you could help me also? Just looking to get a new trailer so wanted to check.

1 - B
2 - Unsure still trying to find out - its a Honda CRV SE Sport (2003) Petrol 
3 - 1930kg (not too sure about this - what does it mean? Max load of vehicle?)
4 - 1500kg
5 - 1600kg
6 - 767kg (Ifor 403)

I think i'm 30kg over the legal limit.


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## ROG (5 November 2013)

Moomin499ck said:



			Wonder if you could help me also? Just looking to get a new trailer so wanted to check.

1 - B
2 - Unsure still trying to find out - its a Honda CRV SE Sport (2003) Petrol 
3 - 1930kg (not too sure about this - what does it mean? Max load of vehicle?)
4 - 1500kg
5 - 1600kg
6 - 767kg (Ifor 403)

I think i'm 30kg over the legal limit.



Click to expand...

The specs I found for your vehicle were 1940 kgs GVW - GVW means the max weight it can legally be when fully loaded - MAM for the trailer means the same thing

You are correct - it is 30 or 40 kgs too much for B licence towing but easy to remedy by calling Ifor Williams who will then direct you to your nearest dealer for down plating at little or no cost

Personally I would down plate to 1500 as that is the max actual weight your vehicle can tow so no point in having a MAM over that - but 1550 would be ok as long as you do not exceed the 1500 limit when its loaded


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## Moomin499ck (5 November 2013)

Thank you so much! Trying to get a trailer so that I can legally tow instead of taking my dad and being a learner when im better at it that him is driving me mad!

I'm buying the trailer from iforwilliams so will make sure that it get downgraded to 1500kg with horse in the trailer would be 1267kg approx


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## ROG (5 November 2013)

Moomin499ck said:



			Thank you so much! Trying to get a trailer so that I can legally tow instead of taking my dad and being a learner when im better at it that him is driving me mad!

I'm buying the trailer from iforwilliams so will make sure that it get downgraded to 1500kg with horse in the trailer would be 1267kg approx
		
Click to expand...

If its a new trailer then contact ifor asap to check that they have 1500 as an option for it because trailers made recently come under the new rules on plating options

Ifor told me they usually designate a few MAM options when it made such as 1600 1500 1400 1300 so it can then be up or down plated to any of those


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## claire_p2001 (5 November 2013)

Hi ROG can a freelander 2 tow 1 horse 500kgs?  What would max weight of trailer we could have be? Thanks


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## ROG (5 November 2013)

claire_p2001 said:



			Hi ROG can a freelander 2 tow 1 horse 500kgs?  What would max weight of trailer we could have be? Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Max towing capacity for a Freelander 2 is 2000 kgs

GVW is 2505

For B licence towing its a non starter

For B+E licence towing virtually any trailer will be ok for what you need


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## Lou_Lou123 (15 November 2013)

Hi I'm in the process of buying a 4x4 to tow my trailer and wonder if this combination will work. I am looking at a mitsubishi shogun sport, which I know has less capacity than a shogun but wondered if this would still be safe. The trailer I have is a westfalia and it has two plates so a little confusing especially as one of them is in German!

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B + E
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle 1915kg (found this online as minimum kerb weight?)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle 2510kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 2800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres this is where i got confused, one plate says 2000kg, and axle load of 1-2000kg (not sure what dash means) the other plate says nose weight of 150kg (well its a diagram that implies that) then 2250 to 3500kg, but not sure what that is?
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer " Have never weighed it empty and no idea what model it is as it is fairly old but has had a recent refurb (new floor, partition, electrics etc) it has no front ramp which i always assume means it cant be that heavy?

Any advice appreciated as I have just tried to calculate what I can tow and from what I have read the weight of the trailer should not exceed 85% of the unladen weight of the towing vehicle which is only 1627kg, that doesn't sound much to me?

Thanks

Lou


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## ROG (15 November 2013)

Lou_Lou123 said:



			Hi I'm in the process of buying a 4x4 to tow my trailer and wonder if this combination will work. I am looking at a mitsubishi shogun sport, which I know has less capacity than a shogun but wondered if this would still be safe. The trailer I have is a westfalia and it has two plates so a little confusing especially as one of them is in German!

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B + E
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle 1915kg (found this online as minimum kerb weight?)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle 2510kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 2800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres this is where i got confused, one plate says 2000kg, and axle load of 1-2000kg (not sure what dash means) the other plate says nose weight of 150kg (well its a diagram that implies that) then 2250 to 3500kg, but not sure what that is?
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer " Have never weighed it empty and no idea what model it is as it is fairly old but has had a recent refurb (new floor, partition, electrics etc) it has no front ramp which i always assume means it cant be that heavy?

Any advice appreciated as I have just tried to calculate what I can tow and from what I have read the weight of the trailer should not exceed 85% of the unladen weight of the towing vehicle which is only 1627kg, that doesn't sound much to me?

Thanks

Lou
		
Click to expand...

Firstly the 85% thing is only for caravans so we can ignore that

You have a B+E so that makes thing easy

Your max towing capacity is 2800 kgs
The MAM of the trailer seems to be 2000 if that is on the silver plate riveted to the frame? - is it in English?

If 2000 is the trailer MAM then that is lower than the 2800 towing capacity so we use 2000 as the max when loaded

If the trailer weighs say 750 empty then you can load 1250 into the trailer 750+1250=2000

IS THIS YOUR TRAILER? - http://heavycherry.com/machineinfo/...__used_2000_kg-1988-trailer-cattle_truck.html
If not that one then is it one shown on the right of that page?


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## Lou_Lou123 (15 November 2013)

It looks more like this one http://heavycherry.com/machineinfo/thiel/-explorer-2010-trailer-cattle_truck.html

It used to have the lift up flap thing above the ramp but we took that off as it didn't lift high enough to load the horses!


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## Lou_Lou123 (15 November 2013)

On closer inspection it looks exactly like that one, with the windows, handles, shape of door etc (except door is on other side) I also wonder if the unladen weight might be different as when we got it it had nothing inside and we added the partitions when we had it refurbed.

Thanks for your time


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## ROG (15 November 2013)

Lou_Lou123 said:



			It looks more like this one http://heavycherry.com/machineinfo/thiel/-explorer-2010-trailer-cattle_truck.html

It used to have the lift up flap thing above the ramp but we took that off as it didn't lift high enough to load the horses!
		
Click to expand...




Lou_Lou123 said:



			On closer inspection it looks exactly like that one, with the windows, handles, shape of door etc (except door is on other side) I also wonder if the unladen weight might be different as when we got it it had nothing inside and we added the partitions when we had it refurbed.

Thanks for your time 

Click to expand...

That is 2400 MAM but your plate says 2000 so I am sceptical and would go by 2000

Take trailer to weighbridge empty and weigh it to get current unladen weight

Its possible that the trailer could be uprated to 3500 because of the 2250 to 3500 plate but I am not certain of that because even if you posted a pic of that plate I cannot read German !


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## Lou_Lou123 (15 November 2013)

I did try to post a picture of the two plates as I am not sure which one is correct, the english one is the one that says 2250 to 3000, but the pic is on my phone and have no idea how to post that to forum! Thanks for you help... looks like a trip to the weigh bridge is in order!


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## Lou_Lou123 (15 November 2013)

Here is the first plate

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153498040240646&set=pcb.10153498040400646&type=1&theater

and the second one

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153498039585646&set=pcb.10153498040400646&type=1&theater


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## sallybush (16 November 2013)

Lou_Lou123 said:



			I did try to post a picture of the two plates as I am not sure which one is correct, the english one is the one that says 2250 to 3000, but the pic is on my phone and have no idea how to post that to forum! Thanks for you help... looks like a trip to the weigh bridge is in order!
		
Click to expand...


The plate that says 2250-3000 is the rating for the coupling (handbrake/jockeywheel/coupling unit) as it comes as a standalone unit from Bradley and the trailer manufacturer simply bolts it onto the trailer A frame.  The fact your trailer plate says 2000kg suggests it may have been downrated as the coupling is over-specced for the trailer...the trailer manufacturer would probably have fitted a lighter cheaper coupling if it was designed as 2000kg trailer.

Its the trailer plate you need to use for towing calcs


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## ROG (16 November 2013)

I agree - 2000 kgs MAM plated trailer for UK weight and licence laws


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## Lou_Lou123 (16 November 2013)

Ok thank you ROG and Sallybush. I had been wondering what the two were for. Is it easy to get it rated back to what the coupling says?


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## ROG (17 November 2013)

Lou_Lou123 said:



			Ok thank you ROG and Sallybush. I had been wondering what the two were for. Is it easy to get it rated back to what the coupling says?
		
Click to expand...

For the MAM to be changed the manufacturer must be contacted so it can be arranged with their local dealer to you

Assuming it can be uprated - am wondering whether all the other components can take an uprate ......


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## mischamoo (21 November 2013)

Hi ROG,

Apologies if you've answered this Q already - however I need clarification from someone who knows!

I've been towing my 4X4 and trailer on a provisional licence since March with "L" plates and someone sitting beside me who holds a pre-1997 licence. I've just been informed by someone who thinks they know different that the person sitting next to me has to have taken the trailer test and simply having the pre-1997 "grandfather rights" to be able to sit next to someone is not enough - is this correct......?


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## ROG (21 November 2013)

mischamoo said:



			Hi ROG,

Apologies if you've answered this Q already - however I need clarification from someone who knows!

I've been towing my 4X4 and trailer on a provisional licence since March with "L" plates and someone sitting beside me who holds a pre-1997 licence. I've just been informed by someone who thinks they know different that the person sitting next to me has to have taken the trailer test and simply having the pre-1997 "grandfather rights" to be able to tow is not enough - is this correct......?
		
Click to expand...

Not correct because some misread the bit below

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.

They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.


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## mischamoo (21 November 2013)

ROG said:



			Not correct because some misread the bit below

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.

They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying ROG!! - suddenly had a massive panic attack thinking I'd been illegally towing for the past 8 months.


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## ROG (21 November 2013)

mischamoo said:



			Thanks for clarifying ROG!! - suddenly had a massive panic attack thinking I'd been illegally towing for the past 8 months.
		
Click to expand...

Quite a few got this wrong regarding B+E supervision including some DSA examiners when it first came out so I am not to hard on those that think this

It would have been useful for the authorities to put in the bit - excludes those supervising B+E - which would have saved the problem


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## Janee (1 December 2013)

I am looking to replace my car because I now need something to tow with, it also needs to be large enough to carry my work equipment (gardening) and ferry 4 children to and from school, not much I know. It will need to tow an Ifor Williams 510 (weight approx 999 kg) with 2 horses weight approx 510 kg and 520 kg.

At moment seen Nissan Navara and also Volvo XC90, would these be above the job for towing.

Any others people would recommend?


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## ROG (1 December 2013)

Janee said:



			I am looking to replace my car because I now need something to tow with, it also needs to be large enough to carry my work equipment (gardening) and ferry 4 children to and from school, not much I know. It will need to tow an Ifor Williams 510 (weight approx 999 kg) with 2 horses weight approx 510 kg and 520 kg.

At moment seen Nissan Navara and also Volvo XC90, would these be above the job for towing.

Any others people would recommend?
		
Click to expand...

You obviously have a B+E licence and have a trailer capable of that weight so you need any vehicle with a towing capacity of at least 2100 kgs but recommend one with around 2500 kgs

If for towing on hard ground only then any vehicle will do but if not then it needs to be a 4x4 etc

That is as far as I can go with your query


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## coen (5 December 2013)

Hi Roger

I am looking to purchase a HB511 before xmas and currently drive a VW Touareg but I need to do my B+E. 

I just called a local training training centre to book an assessment lesson and the receptionist said to ensure i have a second number plate & that my car has a secondary system.
I would be using my car and their trailer.

Would you mind giving me a bit of info on what this is as I haven't a clue and the receptionist couldn't provide much info either.
Also are there any other things I should be aware of?


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## ROG (5 December 2013)

coen said:



			Hi Roger

I am looking to purchase a HB511 before xmas and currently drive a VW Touareg but I need to do my B+E. 

I just called a local training training centre to book an assessment lesson and the receptionist said to ensure i have a second number plate & that my car has a secondary system.
I would be using my car and their trailer.

Would you mind giving me a bit of info on what this is as I haven't a clue and the receptionist couldn't provide much info either.
Also are there any other things I should be aware of?
		
Click to expand...

Number plate for trailer
Secondary system = over-run brakes which it will already have as standard

Did they also mention that you need extra side mirrors so the examiner can see down both sides from the passenger as well as you can from the driver seat?




*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
DSA REVERSING TEST AREA DIAGRAM
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

Well explained here

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos

This is interesting BUT NOT RECOMMENDED &#8211; a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test. So you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself. 
DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS


----------



## ROG (5 December 2013)

Is your vehicle manual or auto?

If manual ok but if auto then you only get B+E in auto


Where in UK are you as I might be able to recommend a good trainer - just seen this thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?644084-B-E-Secondary-number-plate-amp-system and it seems you already have a good trainer as they are also a LGV training company = usually means they do B+E well


----------



## coen (5 December 2013)

Thanks so much for the info. Really interesting that you can in effect teach yourself.
Do you have any idea how may hours training is required on average to pass the test?
I have been driving for 10years used to the 4x4 but never pulled a trailer.

My car is auto, ah i didn't even consider that buy guess it will make it a little easier if you have to do any hills?

And i am based in Upminster Essex well I hope so. I don't know anyone who has used them but they are pretty local.
They didn't mention extra mirrors maybe I should call and check.


----------



## ROG (5 December 2013)

coen said:



			Thanks so much for the info. Really interesting that you can in effect teach yourself.
Do you have any idea how may hours training is required on average to pass the test?
I have been driving for 10years used to the 4x4 but never pulled a trailer.

My car is auto, ah i didn't even consider that buy guess it will make it a little easier if you have to do any hills?

And i am based in Upminster Essex well I hope so. I don't know anyone who has used them but they are pretty local.
They didn't mention extra mirrors maybe I should call and check.
		
Click to expand...

It is in the link I posted about vehicle and trailer test requirements = http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_4022521

If you are happy with B+E auto only then fine - most would not be

Please name the training company - that is allowed on here


----------



## coen (5 December 2013)

Also in your opinion would a heavier trailer mean more stability?
I am torn between the HB506 & HB511 most people voted HB511 but it would be great to know if there is any impact on stability when in motion. e.g. effect from side winds ect?


----------



## coen (5 December 2013)

Just seen your reply.
The company is roadtrain in thurrock, any experience of them?

My original driving test was manual so i don't mind doing the trailer test as auto mainly because I would prefer to use the car i am used to. Are most 4x4's auto?


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## ROG (5 December 2013)

coen said:



			Also in your opinion would a heavier trailer mean more stability?
I am torn between the HB506 & HB511 most people voted HB511 but it would be great to know if there is any impact on stability when in motion. e.g. effect from side winds ect?
		
Click to expand...

THANKS - that just reminded me of the NEW rule which in in place NOW - the trailer MUST be loaded with one x 1000 kgs IBC (water container) or 600 kgs in bags of sand


----------



## ROG (5 December 2013)

coen said:



			Just seen your reply.
The company is roadtrain in thurrock, any experience of them?

My original driving test was manual so i don't mind doing the trailer test as auto mainly because I would prefer to use the car i am used to. Are most 4x4's auto?
		
Click to expand...

About 50/50 for 4x4s

Roadtrain does have a pretty good rep for LGV training

Surprised they never mentioned the load in the trailer requirement but then I almost forgot !!


----------



## coen (5 December 2013)

Ah well that is good to hear. To be honest the lady I spoke didn't seem to have the full info and none of the instructors were available.

Would that make it noticeably harder for me?
Guess I am just trying to gauge how hard it will be to pass, it would be awful to fail considering a test day is pretty expensive.


----------



## ROG (5 December 2013)

coen said:



			Ah well that is good to hear. To be honest the lady I spoke didn't seem to have the full info and none of the instructors were available.

Would that make it noticeably harder for me?
Guess I am just trying to gauge how hard it will be to pass, it would be awful to fail considering a test day is pretty expensive.
		
Click to expand...

The main issue is going to be - where will you get either a 1000 kg IBC filled with water or 600 kgs of sand bags ?


----------



## ROG (5 December 2013)

I would go to these and use their set up = http://www.keithwilliamshgv.co.uk/trailer_training.html


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## coen (5 December 2013)

I just assumed they would provide that as they are providing the trailer but maybe not. 
I will call tomorrow and check all of those details.

Thanks so much for the suggestion I will give those a ring tomorrow too.

Really appreciate all your help.


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## ROG (5 December 2013)

coen said:



			I just assumed they would provide that as they are providing the trailer but maybe not. 
I will call tomorrow and check all of those details.

Thanks so much for the suggestion I will give those a ring tomorrow too.

Really appreciate all your help.
		
Click to expand...

If roadtrain are providing the trailer then it should be loaded as the DSA require - I assumed you were going to use your trailer


----------



## ROG (5 December 2013)

Near to me a LGV school does the B+E with their set up over three half days with test on day 3 all inclusive for about £650


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## coen (6 December 2013)

Just wondered if you had any advice regarding security?

Would you say a hitch lock or wheel clamp is most effective?

Thinking of using one of these, building a solid gate and someone else suggested cementing a ring to the ground and also chaining the trailer to that which sounds like a good idea.


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## ROG (6 December 2013)

coen said:



			Just wondered if you had any advice regarding security?

Would you say a hitch lock or wheel clamp is most effective?

Thinking of using one of these, building a solid gate and someone else suggested cementing a ring to the ground and also chaining the trailer to that which sounds like a good idea.
		
Click to expand...

All are good ideas so implement as many of them as possible


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## ba.wi (6 December 2013)

Hi Rog,
 could you please advise me on this combination.

1.B
2.  1684
3.  2260
4.  2200
5.  1000
6.  450

 These are specs for a Volkswagon Tiguan 4x4 and trailer with down rated MAM. 
I havent bought the tiguan yet but have been looking into the options without a trailer test. 
                                                                                                                    Many thanks


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## ROG (7 December 2013)

ba.wi said:



			Hi Rog,
 could you please advise me on this combination.

1.B
2.  1684
3.  2260
4.  2200
5.  1000
6.  450

 These are specs for a Volkswagon Tiguan 4x4 and trailer with down rated MAM. 
I havent bought the tiguan yet but have been looking into the options without a trailer test. 
                                                                                                                    Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

Legal

With a GVW of 2260 you can have a max trailer plated MAM of 1240 kgs

Curious ... what trailer is that with a MAM of 1000 and an empty weight of 450 kgs ?


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## SAMMI-J (11 December 2013)

Hi ROG
Can you please help me work out if this car will be suitable to tow
1 B+E
2 1585 unladed
3 2185 GVM
4 2000 braked
5 1600 Max load
6 675 unladed

The car is an Audi Q3 2.0 Quattro i want to two 2 ponies weighing 900kg

Thanks


----------



## ROG (11 December 2013)

SAMMI-J said:



			Hi ROG
Can you please help me work out if this car will be suitable to tow
1 B+E
2 1585 unladed
3 2185 GVM
4 2000 braked
5 1600 Max load
6 675 unladed

The car is an Audi Q3 2.0 Quattro i want to two 2 ponies weighing 900kg

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

I assume number 5 is the MAM of the trailer and not its max load because max load refers to the max that can be put in the empty trailer???

Using the assumption above then the max the trailer can be loaded with is 925 kgs which is very close to the weight you want to load in it so when loaded you will need to go to a weighbridge to confirm the trailer is not over 1600 kgs

The vehicle will easily be capable of towing 1600 with 400 to spare


----------



## SAMMI-J (11 December 2013)

Thanks for the speedy response ROG 
Would I be better getting a trailer with a MAM of 1700 / 1800?

I'm also wondering if I would be able to get the Q3 model down that can tow 1800 ( cheaper ins and to run). The max weight I would have in the trailer would've around 1600.


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## ROG (12 December 2013)

SAMMI-J said:



			Thanks for the speedy response ROG 
Would I be better getting a trailer with a MAM of 1700 / 1800?

I'm also wondering if I would be able to get the Q3 model down that can tow 1800 ( cheaper ins and to run). The max weight I would have in the trailer would've around 1600.
		
Click to expand...

A trailer where the payload is higher would be better but usually the higher the MAM the higher the empty weight so make sure you take the empty weight from the MAM weight to get the max payload 

Having a vehicle with a lower towing capacity might not work with a heavier trailer


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## ROG (12 December 2013)

http://www.horsetrailersales.co.uk/NewIforHB506.asp
This example shows a trailer with an empty weight of 920 kgs and a MAM of 2600 kgs
With a vehicle having a 2000 towing capacity that means you cold load 1080 in it (2000-920=1080)

http://www.horsetrailersales.co.uk/NewBatesonDerby.asp
This one has an empty weight of 675 and a MAM of 1700 so with a towing capacity of 1800 you can load 1025 into it (1700-675=1025)

I find this particular site very informative http://www.horsetrailersales.co.uk/ so perhaps spending some time looking at the unladen and MAM weights of trailers on it might give you other options

You cannot always believe the unladen weights so a trip to a weighbridge when empty is always a good idea


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## SAMMI-J (12 December 2013)

Thanks ROG  I have been looking at this site quite a lot trying to figure out what works and what doesn't lol!

So would the below options be feasible then;
1 B+E
2 GVW 2135
3 Max Tow 1800
4 Unladen 1535
5 MAM 1700
6 Unladen 657
leaving 1025 to load (ponies no more than 900)

OR

1 B+E
2 GVW 2135
3 Max Tow 1800
4 Unladen 1535
5 MAM 2000
6 Unladen 830
leaving 970 to load (ponies no more than 900)

OR

1 B+E
2 GVW 2135
3 Max Tow 1800
4 Unladen 1535
5 MAM 1750
6 Unladen 820
leaving 930 to load (ponies no more than 900)

Are you allowed to pull a trailer with a higher MAM than you cars towing capacity if it is carrying less than the towing capacity? Or does the trailer need to be down plated?


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## ROG (12 December 2013)

So would the below options be feasible then;
1 B+E
2 GVW 2135
3 Max Tow 1800
4 Unladen 1535
5 MAM 1700
6 Unladen 657
leaving 1025 to load (ponies no more than 900)
*1700-657=1043 for ponies/load*



1 B+E
2 GVW 2135
3 Max Tow 1800
4 Unladen 1535
5 MAM 2000
6 Unladen 830
leaving 970 to load (ponies no more than 900)
*Spot on*

1 B+E
2 GVW 2135
3 Max Tow 1800
4 Unladen 1535
5 MAM 1750
6 Unladen 820
leaving 930 to load (ponies no more than 900)
*Spot on again*


Are you allowed to pull a trailer with a higher MAM than you cars towing capacity if it is carrying less than the towing capacity? Or does the trailer need to be down plated?
*MYTH - there is no law or rule which states the vehicle towing capacity must be able to cope with the MAM of a trailer*


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## SAMMI-J (12 December 2013)

Excellent. Thanks for all your help ROG. Looks like 1800 tow capacity will be fine.
Now just need to find a book a B + E course and test on the Wirral


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## ROG (12 December 2013)

SAMMI-J said:



			Excellent. Thanks for all your help ROG. Looks like 1800 tow capacity will be fine.
Now just need to find a book a B + E course and test on the Wirral 

Click to expand...

Try a LGV training company that also does B+E - I know this one has a great rep but its a little jaunt - http://www.chevrontraining.co.uk/catbe.html

With less weight - one horse 400 to 600 kgs - you could get away with towing on your B licence but not with two horses weighing 900 kgs total


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## coen (18 December 2013)

Hi Rog,
i have the HB511 ordered and my trailers lessons arranged but having done a couple of searches have become a bit concerned about snaking ect.
Would regularly drive on M25 so lots of lorries around.

Are the anti snake bars effective? Or would the new ifor trailers have these sort of safety measures as standard?
E.g
http://www.barlowtrailers.co.uk/Bulldog_200Q_Stabiliser


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## ROG (18 December 2013)

coen said:



			Hi Rog,
i have the HB511 ordered and my trailers lessons arranged but having done a couple of searches have become a bit concerned about snaking ect.
Would regularly drive on M25 so lots of lorries around.

Are the anti snake bars effective? Or would the new ifor trailers have these sort of safety measures as standard?
E.g
http://www.barlowtrailers.co.uk/Bulldog_200Q_Stabiliser

Click to expand...

I have heard good things about the anti-snaking but do not think trailers have them as standard - perhaps it might be a good idea to see if the supplier can fit one before you get it


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## lymeregis (19 December 2013)

Hi!

Hoping to pick you brains!    if you dont mind?

I have done my trailer test, phew!  Lovely boyfriend has just put a towbar on his Nissan Navara 2007 truck and we are picking up a 2005 ifor williams 510 on saturday!!!  woohooo!

Anyway, my point is, my current horse weighs say max 600kgs, do I have any spare towing weight to play around with to take a friend out to play as well?  

Am pretty sure just my own horse is well within the safe towing limits?  

thank you so much!  

Karen


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## ROG (19 December 2013)

lymeregis said:



			Hi!

Hoping to pick you brains!    if you dont mind?

I have done my trailer test, phew!  Lovely boyfriend has just put a towbar on his Nissan Navara 2007 truck and we are picking up a 2005 ifor williams 510 on saturday!!!  woohooo!

Anyway, my point is, my current horse weighs say max 600kgs, do I have any spare towing weight to play around with to take a friend out to play as well?  

Am pretty sure just my own horse is well within the safe towing limits?  

thank you so much!  

Karen
		
Click to expand...

Depends what the towing capacity is for your particular model of Nissan Navara but with say a towing capacity of 2600 kgs and your trailer having a MAM of just under 2600 and an empty weight of 1000 kgs will mean you can load just under 1600 kgs into it


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## lymeregis (19 December 2013)

wow, that is much more than i thought spare!  fantastic, thank you so much for your help, your a star!  

muchly appreciated!


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## ROG (22 December 2013)

New rules for having some types of vehicles and all trailers laden for the test have now come into force - https://www.gov.uk/new-laden-testing-rules-for-driving-test-vehicles

This does affect the B+E


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## Clannad48 (22 December 2013)

Hi ROG, hoping you can clarify something for me. I have searched various DOT web pages but can't get a definitive answer (it may just be me being senile though)

Situation - I have held a full driving license since 1974, and have been towing for some time now.  My daughter has been driving for 4 years and now wishes to train for a towing entitlement on her license (she passed her test 4 years ago). now she only has an automatic license and I am having trouble finding a local training centre that has an automatic car for her to learn in.  In the meantime I am hoping (dreading) to start teaching her the basics of towing until I can find a professional to train her.

My question: 
She is already insured to drive my automatic car which I tow with - is she allowed to practice towing on the road with L plates  - I'm not going to let her practice with the horse on board before anyone asks  - with me supervising.

I realise that I will have to clear this with my insurance company but they are unable/unwilling to comment with regard to the legal aspect of her 'learning to tow'


Many thanks in anticipation


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## ROG (22 December 2013)

Clannad48 said:



			Hi ROG, hoping you can clarify something for me. I have searched various DOT web pages but can't get a definitive answer (it may just be me being senile though)

Situation - I have held a full driving license since 1977, and have been towing for some time now.  My daughter has been driving for 4 years and now wishes to train for a towing entitlement on her license (she passed her test 4 years ago). now she only has an automatic license and I am having trouble finding a local training centre that has an automatic car for her to learn in.  In the meantime I am hoping (dreading) to start teaching her the basics of towing until I can find a professional to train her.

My question: 
She is already insured to drive my automatic car which I tow with - is she allowed to practice towing on the road with L plates  - I'm not going to let her practice with the horse on board before anyone asks  - with me supervising.

I realise that I will have to clear this with my insurance company but they are unable/unwilling to comment with regard to the legal aspect of her 'learning to tow'


Many thanks in anticipation
		
Click to expand...

YOU = manual B+E licence
SHE/HER = auto B licence

YOU can supervise HER in an auto or manual B+E towing set up
L plates
Check ok with insurer
Loaded or empty
Motorways OK

SHE can take test in a manual B+E which will then give HER both B and B+E in manual

Finding a trainer who does B+E auto is very hard to find - what part of UK are you looking around?


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## ROG (22 December 2013)

http://www.mktowingcourses.co.uk/ claim to do B+E in auto


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## Clannad48 (22 December 2013)

Thanks ROG - unfortunately she is restricted to an automatic car due to a previous injury to her left knee which restricts her movement in that leg and we were advised that she would not be able to get insurance for a manual car hence the automatic. 

I have contacted a couple of  companies but still searching.  We are in South Bedfordshire.


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## Clannad48 (22 December 2013)

Yay thanks -  I'll give them a call tomorrow, I was dreading having to teach her myself - world war 3 would have occurred


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## km-j (28 December 2013)

These are my figures for a shogun 3.2 did (Swb)
1) BE
2) Unladen empty weight of towing vehicle - min kerb weight 1995
3) GVW of the towing vehicle - 2510
4) GTW and or towing capacity of vehicle 2800
5) Plated weight of trailer - 2340
6) Unladen weight of trailer - 905


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## ROG (29 December 2013)

km-j said:



			These are my figures for a shogun 3.2 did (Swb)
1) BE
2) Unladen empty weight of towing vehicle - min kerb weight 1995
3) GVW of the towing vehicle - 2510
4) towing capacity of vehicle 2800
5) Plated weight of trailer - 2340
6) Unladen weight of trailer - 905
		
Click to expand...

You can load 1435 into the trailer (2340-905=1435)

The lower figure of either the trailer MAM or the towing capacity is used then the unladen weight of the trailer is deducted to get the max weight which can be loaded into the trailer 

As the GVW 2510 and the trailer MAM 2340 add up to more than 3500 (2510+2340=4850) then a B+E is required which you have


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## MyDogIsAnIdiot (29 December 2013)

Right, I suspect that I'm being dense, but I'm struggling to work out if I can tow. I want to only take one horse (15.2hh) of max weight 500kg. I don't think I can tow with this set-up, but advice would be good.

1 - B license (though can do B+E fi req)
2 - 1800kg
3 - 2400kg
4 - 2000kg
5 - 1025kg (Capacity - I think! It's a Bateson Derby)
6 - 675kg


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## ROG (29 December 2013)

MyDogIsAnIdiot said:



			Right, I suspect that I'm being dense, but I'm struggling to work out if I can tow. I want to only take one horse (15.2hh) of max weight 500kg. I don't think I can tow with this set-up, but advice would be good.

1 - B license (though can do B+E fi req)
2 - 1800kg
3 - 2400kg
4 - 2000kg
5 - 1025kg (Capacity - I think! It's a Bateson Derby)
6 - 675kg
		
Click to expand...

Number 5 = 1700

You are right - you cannot use this set up as it is because the GVW 2400 plus MAM 1700 = 4100 which is 600 over the max 3500 limit for B licence towing

The max MAM the trailer can be is 1100 but if you managed to get Bateson to down plate it from 1700 to 1100 then it could only carry 425 kgs (1100-675=425)

Great trailer for B licence towing but the vehicle needs to one with a lower GVW


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## MyDogIsAnIdiot (29 December 2013)

ROG said:



			Number 5 = 1700

You are right - you cannot use this set up as it is because the GVW 2400 plus MAM 1700 = 4100 which is 600 over the max 3500 limit for B licence towing

The max MAM the trailer can be is 1100 but if you managed to get Bateson to down plate it from 1700 to 1100 then it could only carry 425 kgs (1100-675=425)

Great trailer for B licence towing but the vehicle needs to one with a lower GVW
		
Click to expand...

Ah well, looks like I'll be doing my trailer test then! Thank you


----------



## ROG (29 December 2013)

MyDogIsAnIdiot said:



			Ah well, looks like I'll be doing my trailer test then! Thank you 

Click to expand...


*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
DSA REVERSING TEST AREA DIAGRAM
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

The trailer must now be loaded with 600 kgs of sand bags or a 1000 kgs water IBC for the test so most companies are now training with that weight in the trailer

Well explained here

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos

This is interesting BUT NOT RECOMMENDED &#8211; a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test. So you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself. 
DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS


----------



## MyDogIsAnIdiot (29 December 2013)

What do you think about http://www.crosshandstraining.com/ ? They're about 2 minutes away from me, but I've no idea if they're actually any good. Thank you so much for your help!


----------



## ROG (29 December 2013)

MyDogIsAnIdiot said:



			What do you think about http://www.crosshandstraining.com/ ? They're about 2 minutes away from me, but I've no idea if they're actually any good. Thank you so much for your help! 

Click to expand...

Good rep with LGV so it usually follows that the B+E will also be good as a bad rep with that part will reflect on the rest if not good


----------



## HappyAl (29 December 2013)

Hello, 

I wonder if you can help?  I have recently bought a 4x4 and now i am looking into buying a trailer.  I only have a B licence and would like to know what the limitations on the future trailer would have to be, to make the set up legal, or if that's impossible and i need to do B+E. 

Licence - B
Unladen weight of car - 2056kg (Kia Sorento, 2.5xe 2005)
Fully loaded weight ?  Unknown (cannot find on get car specs)
2802kg - towing weight
Trailer - don't have yet but thinking 1000kg max unladen weight ?
Weight of horse - 450kg.

Thanks very much for any help....


----------



## ROG (30 December 2013)

HappyAl said:



			Hello, 

I wonder if you can help?  I have recently bought a 4x4 and now i am looking into buying a trailer.  I only have a B licence and would like to know what the limitations on the future trailer would have to be, to make the set up legal, or if that's impossible and i need to do B+E. 

Licence - B
Unladen weight of car - 2056kg (Kia Sorento, 2.5xe 2005)
Fully loaded weight ?  Unknown (cannot find on get car specs)
2802kg - towing weight
Trailer - don't have yet but thinking 1000kg max unladen weight ?
Weight of horse - 450kg.

Thanks very much for any help....
		
Click to expand...

GVW of this 4x4 is likely to be around 2600 kgs which only leaves 900 kgs for the plated MAM of a trailer so its impossible to get a horse trailer for this vehicle on a B licence

You need a vehicle with a GVW no more than 2200 kgs to stand a chance of towing on a B licence


----------



## HappyAl (30 December 2013)

ROG said:



			GVW of this 4x4 is likely to be around 2600 kgs which only leaves 900 kgs for the plated MAM of a trailer so its impossible to get a horse trailer for this vehicle on a B licence

You need a vehicle with a GVW no more than 2200 kgs to stand a chance of towing on a B licence
		
Click to expand...

Thank you. 

I've just ben told that the trailer is 700kg unladen and 2000kg laden weight.  

Is the GVW the laden weight of car ?  If so, i will try and find out.. 

Thanks very much Rog.


----------



## ROG (30 December 2013)

HappyAl said:



			Thank you. 

I've just ben told that the trailer is 700kg unladen and 2000kg laden weight.  

Is the GVW the laden weight of car ?  If so, i will try and find out.. 

Thanks very much Rog.
		
Click to expand...

GVW is the same as trailer MAM = the legal max weight it can be when fully loaded

The GVW will be on the V5 document and on a plate in the car which may be hidden inside a door pillar or under the bonnet - it will be the top weight in kgs of the 4 weights listed on that plate

700 for trailer empty plus add 500 for load = 1200 so if you could get the 2000 down plated via the manufacturer to 1200 then the max GVW for the 4x4 cannot be more than 2300 to ensure the 3500 limit is not exceeded


----------



## PeggyPatch (30 December 2013)

ROG said:



			1700 + 1820 = 3520 which is 20 over so the trailer would need to be down plated to a max of 1680

You still have the 1400 limit so 1400 - 675 = 725 so the total weight put into the trailer would be 725

All this is still assuming the GVW and towing capacity figures are correct for your vehicle
		
Click to expand...


Hi Rog,

Previously you helped me with my towing question but I have some more questions. 

I have now got myself a bateson Derby and plan to downplate it so I can tow on my B licence. I passed after 1997 so I think I come under the following laws
"If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can:

drive a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500kg MAM towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as it is no more than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle (with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in total)"

My horse will weight between 450-550kg (she is a baby for anyone wondering about her weight  ). I've calculated that it will be a total of 1225kg (trailer weight and her aboard). That weighs less than the unlaiden weight of my car (1499kg) so I shouldn't have to take the test BUT I think originally you said I would have to downplated to 1680. 

Knowing I fall under these laws would I have to down plate further? 

Our full conversation is on page 143 is you need any more.

Thanks once again in advance and Happy new year


----------



## ROG (31 December 2013)

PeggyPatch said:



			Hi Rog,

Previously you helped me with my towing question but I have some more questions. 

I have now got myself a bateson Derby and plan to downplate it so I can tow on my B licence. I passed after 1997 so I think I come under the following laws
"If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can:

drive a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500kg MAM towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as it is no more than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle (with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in total)"

My horse will weight between 450-550kg (she is a baby for anyone wondering about her weight  ). I've calculated that it will be a total of 1225kg (trailer weight and her aboard). That weighs less than the unlaiden weight of my car (1499kg) so I shouldn't have to take the test BUT I think originally you said I would have to downplated to 1680. 

Knowing I fall under these laws would I have to down plate further? 

Our full conversation is on page 143 is you need any more.

Thanks once again in advance and Happy new year 

Click to expand...

 "as long as it is no more than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle" - that rule was revoked on 19/01/2013

That now leaves one extra rule, on top of the B+E rules, for B licence towing which is ...
The vehicle GVW added to the plated trailer MAM must not total more than 3500
Makes things easier

This from the previous conversation - 


ROG said:



			1700 + 1820 = 3520 which is 20 over so the trailer would need to be down plated to a max of 1680

You still have the 1400 limit so 1400 - 675 = 725 so the total weight put into the trailer would be 725

All this is still assuming the GVW and towing capacity figures are correct for your vehicle
		
Click to expand...


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## ROG (1 January 2014)

I thought about doing a big post as its new year but then decided just to do this ......'trailer' ...... LOL


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## tallyho! (1 January 2014)

Happy New Year ROG!


----------



## HappyAl (1 January 2014)

ROG said:



			GVW is the same as trailer MAM = the legal max weight it can be when fully loaded

The GVW will be on the V5 document and on a plate in the car which may be hidden inside a door pillar or under the bonnet - it will be the top weight in kgs of the 4 weights listed on that plate

700 for trailer empty plus add 500 for load = 1200 so if you could get the 2000 down plated via the manufacturer to 1200 then the max GVW for the 4x4 cannot be more than 2300 to ensure the 3500 limit is not exceeded
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog.  This is all super helpful.  It's a bit of a minefield!

Oh and Happy New Year!


----------



## Chunkie (4 January 2014)

Hi Rog, I've been looking for a link you posted a couple of weeks ago but I can't find it.  When I looked at it at the time, you could put in the weight or type of trailer you wanted to tow and it brought up a list of capable cars.  I'm not sure whether you could choose 2 or 4wd as well?

If you have any idea what I'm talking about, could you post it again please?  

Many thanks x


----------



## ROG (4 January 2014)

Chunkie said:



			Hi Rog, I've been looking for a link you posted a couple of weeks ago but I can't find it.  When I looked at it at the time, you could put in the weight or type of trailer you wanted to tow and it brought up a list of capable cars.  I'm not sure whether you could choose 2 or 4wd as well?

If you have any idea what I'm talking about, could you post it again please?  

Many thanks x
		
Click to expand...

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_vehicles.htm

The results may give the info you want


----------



## Chunkie (4 January 2014)

That's the one thank you.


----------



## WaterBoy (7 January 2014)

Hi Rog, very informative thread you have hear and great to see all the help & advice your giving... 

I'm hoping you can help me with the questions I have with regards to GVW & GTW ex Cetera. 
Firstly I should mention that I'm not looking to transport horses, I want to transport water in bulk. Due to the weight I want to make sure I'm sticking within the law while on the road.. 

At the moment I only hold a standard B driving licence. One of the reasons I'm asking for advice is I don't own a vehicle or trailer at the moment. I'm looking to transport the maximum volume of water I can in one trip so open to suggestions. 

I was thinking of a large van with a GVW of 3500kg, high bhp engine to get a decent towing power and also the possibility of towing a bowser?? 

Just not sure where I'd stand with regards to the laws, or the best way to go about transporting the most water I could possibly do in one trip.. 

Open to suggestions and advice.


----------



## ROG (8 January 2014)

WaterBoy said:



			Hi Rog, very informative thread you have hear and great to see all the help & advice your giving... 

I'm hoping you can help me with the questions I have with regards to GVW & GTW ex Cetera. 
Firstly I should mention that I'm not looking to transport horses, I want to transport water in bulk. Due to the weight I want to make sure I'm sticking within the law while on the road.. 

At the moment I only hold a standard B driving licence. One of the reasons I'm asking for advice is I don't own a vehicle or trailer at the moment. I'm looking to transport the maximum volume of water I can in one trip so open to suggestions. 

I was thinking of a large van with a GVW of 3500kg, high bhp engine to get a decent towing power and also the possibility of towing a bowser?? 

Just not sure where I'd stand with regards to the laws, or the best way to go about transporting the most water I could possibly do in one trip.. 

Open to suggestions and advice.
		
Click to expand...

With a Van of 3500 GVW on a B licence your biggest trailer/bowser would be a plated weight of 750 kgs MAM 
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1139883

Check the plated weight of any trailer before you buy 
Trailers not exceeding 750 kgs plated MAM are not required to have brakes


----------



## WaterBoy (8 January 2014)

ROG said:



			With a Van of 3500 GVW on a B licence your biggest trailer/bowser would be a plated weight of 750 kgs MAM 
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1139883

Check the plated weight of any trailer before you buy 
Trailers not exceeding 750 kgs plated MAM are not required to have brakes
		
Click to expand...

Cheers, so it's max 750kgs on a B licence. 
How dose that relate to the payload of the van? Let's say I wanted to have an ibc container in the back of the van full of water, would I still be able to tow the 750kgs? (I'm assuming that's the total weight when full, or the most you could carry when full including the actual trailer). 

Let's say for example I were to have my father drive the van, he has the old type licence so I believe the laws are different. What would be the case then? 

Thanks for thr advice,


----------



## ROG (8 January 2014)

WaterBoy said:



			Cheers, so it's max 750kgs on a B licence. 
How dose that relate to the payload of the van? Let's say I wanted to have an ibc container in the back of the van full of water, would I still be able to tow the 750kgs? (I'm assuming that's the total weight when full, or the most you could carry when full including the actual trailer). 

Let's say for example I were to have my father drive the van, he has the old type licence so I believe the laws are different. What would be the case then? 

Thanks for thr advice,
		
Click to expand...

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.

They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


Legal B licence towing examples
Vehicle with GVW 2750 to 3500 = max 750 kgs plated MAM for trailer
Vehicle with 2500 GVW = max 1000 kgs plated MAM for trailer
Vehicle with 2000 GVW = max 1500 kgs plated MAM for trailer

Its the plated weights and not the actual weights which the authorities go by

You can load the vehicle and trailer to their respective max permissible weights providing the vehicle GTW and towing capacity allows it


TACHO - is your set up for commercial or private only purposes?


----------



## WaterBoy (8 January 2014)

Hi Rog, thanks for the advice it's most appreciated.



ROG said:



*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.

They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
		
Click to expand...

Lots of useful info but I think you may have missed my original question, if my dad was driving dose the weight change? 



ROG said:



			Legal B licence towing examples
Vehicle with GVW 2750 to 3500 = max 750 kgs plated MAM for trailer
Vehicle with 2500 GVW = max 1000 kgs plated MAM for trailer
Vehicle with 2000 GVW = max 1500 kgs plated MAM for trailer

Its the plated weights and not the actual weights which the authorities go by

You can load the vehicle and trailer to their respective max permissible weights providing the vehicle GTW and towing capacity allows it


TACHO - is your set up for commercial or private only purposes?
		
Click to expand...

TACHO, good question and something I'd not thought about. I don't think a tachometer would be needed, yes it will be for business but only 4-6 days each month will be spent traveling for business at about 5 hours each time.. (Saying that I'm not sure where the tacho rules come into effect). 

Also, please bear with me. I'm not too sure what MAM is? 

Let's say for example I wanted to buy this van: 






And I wanted to tow this trailer: 






Could I drive under my B licence? 
Could my dad drive under his older licence? 

Cheers Rog..


----------



## ROG (8 January 2014)

Whether you are driving with your dad supervising or your dad is driving then B+E rules apply

Driving on your own means B rules apply

MAM or GVW means the same thing = the maximum something can legally weigh when fully loaded

With that 1500 kg MAM trailer and that 3500 GVW van = B+E rules

If you contacted the manufacturer of that trailer and got it down plated to 750 kgs MAM then = B rules 

Trailer at 1500 = 1195 load for trailer
Trailer at 750 = 445 load for trailer

If for ANY commercial use AT ANY TIME and over 3500 total MAM - which both examples are - then it comes under TACHO rules UNLESS it never goes more than 50 km from base AND the load is used for the job you went to do

Example of tacho exemption - 
Van and trailer 3750 kgs total MAM are loaded with water bowsers and cleaning equipment which the driver uses to clean other peoples vehicles and it never goes more than 50 km from base

Its a very heavy fine if the tacho rules are ignored


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## xStephx (9 January 2014)

Can anyone recommend any brand new cars that are acceptable to tow on a B license? I haven't got a trailer yet but would get something like the Bateson Derby down plated. Horse would weigh approx. 550kg. My dad's company car is due to be changed for a new one and I'm having trouble finding specs for new models on the internet without having to sign up and download loads of brochures. I know I can trawl these posts but my eyes are hurting already!


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## ROG (9 January 2014)

xStephx said:



			Can anyone recommend any brand new cars that are acceptable to tow on a B license? I haven't got a trailer yet but would get something like the Bateson Derby down plated. Horse would weigh approx. 550kg. My dad's company car is due to be changed for a new one and I'm having trouble finding specs for new models on the internet without having to sign up and download loads of brochures. I know I can trawl these posts but my eyes are hurting already!
		
Click to expand...

Just google ....
Cars GVW 2000 2100 2200 kgs
... and see what that brings up


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## ROG (9 January 2014)

Ford mondeo is a favourite


----------



## WaterBoy (9 January 2014)

Thanks for all the advice Rog.


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## peter2014 (11 January 2014)

Hello Rog could really do with your advice,  I passed my test in 93,  I plan on buying a 2012 focus estate,  I went on a web site and it said it has a towing weight of 1200kg.  I was going to buy a car transporter/trailer braked that weights 700kg,  However am I correct in thinking I can only put a car on it that weights 500kg or less??? If that's the case then its not going to be the way forward,  I just cant get my head around this topic


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## Darremi (11 January 2014)

If the maximum towing weight for the car is 1200 then anything more than 700 + 500 is going to knacker the car!


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## ROG (11 January 2014)

peter2014 said:



			Hello Rog could really do with your advice,  I passed my test in 93,  I plan on buying a 2012 focus estate,  I went on a web site and it said it has a towing weight of 1200kg.  I was going to buy a car transporter/trailer braked that weights 700kg,  However am I correct in thinking I can only put a car on it that weights 500kg or less??? If that's the case then its not going to be the way forward,  I just cant get my head around this topic
		
Click to expand...

500 max is correct


----------



## peter2014 (11 January 2014)

ROG said:



			500 max is correct
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog

Guess I wont be buying one then!  Hereis what I just found on the ford website

Kerbweight 1362kg
gross vehicle mass 1900kg
gross train mass 3100kg
max towable mass 1200kg

I basically need to find tow car which I can legally tow a braked trailer that weights under 750. and then ontop of that I will be towing cars on said trailer weighing kerbweight 1100

I don't really want a 4x4 so any pointers? cheers all who help out


----------



## ROG (11 January 2014)

peter2014 said:



			I basically need to find tow car which I can legally tow a braked trailer that weights under 750. and then ontop of that I will be towing cars on said trailer weighing kerbweight 1100

I don't really want a 4x4 so any pointers? cheers all who help out
		
Click to expand...

You need a vehicle with a towing capacity around 2000 kgs

try putting 2000 into that link  http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_vehicles.htm


----------



## Tayto (13 January 2014)

I hope this is the right place to post - need some advice. 

I have an audi a5 quattro - I thought it would be ok to use for towing a trailer with 1 x 500kg horse in it but when I phoned to get a price to fit a tow bar to it, the garage told me that the a5's are not designed for towing so they need to modify the engine and it will cost be £4k!!!!!  Might as well buy a car just for towing its that the case. 

Can anyone shed any more light on this - do you think the garage are taking the pee a bit cos I am a "helpless woman"???


----------



## xStephx (13 January 2014)

ROG said:



			Ford mondeo is a favourite
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ROG, just another thought as well, my dad can buy his current car and I buy this off him, as I think it may be possible on a B license to tow. His current car is a Citroen C4 Picasso, I've taken these details off another C4 Picasso on available car, but I can find the exact specs later. If they are the below am I right in thinking it is possible to tow with a down plated trailer?

Minimum Kerbweight1489 Gross Vehicle Weight2050 Max. Towing Weight - Braked1500

Thanks


----------



## ROG (13 January 2014)

Tayto said:



			I hope this is the right place to post - need some advice. 

I have an audi a5 quattro - I thought it would be ok to use for towing a trailer with 1 x 500kg horse in it but when I phoned to get a price to fit a tow bar to it, the garage told me that the a5's are not designed for towing so they need to modify the engine and it will cost be £4k!!!!!  Might as well buy a car just for towing its that the case. 

Can anyone shed any more light on this - do you think the garage are taking the pee a bit cos I am a "helpless woman"???
		
Click to expand...

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/audi/a5/towing-weight-limit/ - is your model in that list?


----------



## ROG (13 January 2014)

xStephx said:



			Thanks ROG, just another thought as well, my dad can buy his current car and I buy this off him, as I think it may be possible on a B license to tow. His current car is a Citroen C4 Picasso, I've taken these details off another C4 Picasso on available car, but I can find the exact specs later. If they are the below am I right in thinking it is possible to tow with a down plated trailer?

Minimum Kerbweight1489 Gross Vehicle Weight2050 Max. Towing Weight - Braked1500

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

GVW of 2050 means you can have a trailer with a plated MAM of 1450

Something like a HB 401 or 403 down plated from 1600 to say 1400 with an empty weight of about 800 means a horse/load of 600 can be loaded into the trailer


----------



## Tayto (13 January 2014)

ROG said:



http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/audi/a5/towing-weight-limit/ - is your model in that list?
		
Click to expand...

It is the "A5 Coupe 3.0 TDI 245 Quattro S Line 2dr S Tronic" which states a capacity of 2,100kg. I am only towing one horse so I doubt we would exceed 1700kg.....


----------



## ROG (13 January 2014)

Tayto said:



			It is the "A5 Coupe 3.0 TDI 245 Quattro S Line 2dr S Tronic" which states a capacity of 2,100kg. I am only towing one horse so I doubt we would exceed 1700kg.....
		
Click to expand...

Then a towbar can be fitted and you can tow with it

As it has a GVW of 2345 then B+E licence rules apply


----------



## Tayto (13 January 2014)

ROG said:



			Then a towbar can be fitted and you can tow with it

As it has a GVW of 2345 then B+E licence rules apply
		
Click to expand...

Thank you very much!


----------



## ROG (13 January 2014)

Tayto said:



			Thank you very much!
		
Click to expand...

http://www.caranddriver.com/photos-...di-quattro-towing-1964-volvo-544-photo-409577
is that one?


----------



## Tayto (14 January 2014)

Sorry for the delay - just noticed your reply. 

No the car in that pic is a Q7 - mine is a coupe like the ones in these pics

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=A5+Coupe+3.0+TDI+245+Quattro+S+Line+2dr+S+Tronic+towing&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=_RnVUqr8LqTL0AX41IGYBA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=990&bih=487#q=A5+Coupe+3.0+TDI+245+Quattro+S+Line+2dr+S+Tronic+&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&tbm=isch


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## mischamoo (15 January 2014)

Hi ROG, I just wanted you to clarify for arguments sake so I can show this to my friend!

She is adamant that she can tow her horse in her car and trailer (on a B licence) because the combination weighs under 3.5 ton (she's only considered the trailer's unladen weight) I've told her she's illegal with that set up.

I've told her she needs to make sure that the trailer plated weight (NOT unladen), vehicle's weight and horse's weight does NOT total more than 3.5t and that she also needs to check that the trailer's plated weight is not more than the vehicle's weight.

AM I RIGHT?!!


----------



## ROG (15 January 2014)

mischamoo said:



			Hi ROG, I just wanted you to clarify for arguments sake so I can show this to my friend!

She is adamant that she can tow her horse in her car and trailer (on a B licence) because the combination weighs under 3.5 ton (she's only considered the trailer's unladen weight) I've told her she's illegal with that set up.

I've told her she needs to make sure that the trailer plated weight (NOT unladen), vehicle's weight and horse's weight does NOT total more than 3.5t and that she also needs to check that the trailer's plated weight is not more than the vehicle's weight.

AM I RIGHT?!!
		
Click to expand...


"also needs to check that the trailer's plated weight is not more than the vehicle's weight." - that bit was revoked a year ago

Now its simple for B licence towing.....

To tow a trailer over 750 kgs plated MAM on a B licence the one extra rule on top of the usual towing rules is ....

The vehicle plated GVW added to the trailer plated MAM must not total more than 3500 kgs

So you are right in saying its the plated weights which matter and not any other sort of weights in regards to licencing laws


----------



## mischamoo (15 January 2014)

ROG said:



			"also needs to check that the trailer's plated weight is not more than the vehicle's weight." - that bit was revoked a year ago

Now its simple for B licence towing.....

To tow a trailer over 750 kgs plated MAM on a B licence the one extra rule on top of the usual towing rules is ....

The vehicle plated GVW added to the trailer plated MAM must not total more than 3500 kgs

So you are right in saying its the plated weights which matter and not any other sort of weights in regards to licencing laws
		
Click to expand...

Thats much more simple, thank you ROG - I didnt realise they'd revoked that part of the towing law - must open up a few more options for B licence holders - could you direct me to which page on here has the other towing rules on so I can show her please?


----------



## ROG (15 January 2014)

mischamoo said:



			Thats much more simple, thank you ROG - I didnt realise they'd revoked that part of the towing law - must open up a few more options for B licence holders - could you direct me to which page on here has the other towing rules on so I can show her please?
		
Click to expand...

Post numbers 999 and 1000 in this thread have the info and examples

Suggest nobody reads the GOV / DVLA internet stuff on this because it is written in a very confusing way and at first glance it seems as though there are two sets of rules for B licence towing which is not correct as there is only one law for all B licence holders


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## mischamoo (15 January 2014)

ROG said:



			Post numbers 999 and 1000 in this thread have the info and examples

Suggest nobody reads the GOV / DVLA internet stuff on this because it is written in a very confusing way and at first glance it seems as though there are two sets of rules for B licence towing which is not correct as there is only one law for all B licence holders
		
Click to expand...

ROG, the revocation of that point from the towing laws, does that not make it quite unsafe to potentially tow a trailer that has a higher weight than the car you're driving if it simply is now just the combined plated weights of car and trailer are simply below 3.5t and that there's now no sticking point that the car must weigh more than the trailer?


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## ROG (15 January 2014)

mischamoo said:



			ROG, the revocation of that point from the towing laws, does that not make it quite unsafe to potentially tow a trailer that has a higher weight than the car you're driving if it simply is now just the combined plated weights of car and trailer are simply below 3.5t and that there's now no sticking point that the car must weigh more than the trailer?
		
Click to expand...

As that is quite often the case with those towing under B+E rules then its no more or less unsafe under B rules

Two examples

===============================

B+E towing
Vehicle
GVW 1900
Empty 1400
Towing capacity 1600

Trailer 
MAM 2500
empty 500

Vehicle might be 1500 loaded with trailer 1600 loaded 

===============================

B towing
Vehicle
GVW 1900
Empty 1400
Towing capacity 1600

Trailer 
MAM 1600
empty 500

Vehicle might be 1500 loaded with trailer 1600 loaded 

================================

As you can see the outcome is the same with only the trailer MAMs being different - the B one being 1600 so it conforms to the licencing laws


----------



## mischamoo (15 January 2014)

ROG said:



			As that is quite often the case with those towing under B+E rules then its no more or less unsafe under B rules

Two examples

===============================

B+E towing
Vehicle
GVW 1900
Empty 1400
Towing capacity 1600

Trailer 
MAM 2500
empty 500

Vehicle might be 1500 loaded with trailer 1600 loaded 

===============================

B towing
Vehicle
GVW 1900
Empty 1400
Towing capacity 1600

Trailer 
MAM 1600
empty 500

Vehicle might be 1500 loaded with trailer 1600 loaded 

================================

As you can see the outcome is the same with only the trailer MAMs being different - the B one being 1600 so it conforms to the licencing laws
		
Click to expand...

Ah yes good point, maybe just naively assumed that people with the b+e licence would automatically drive a large 4x4 where the likelihood of the car would weigh more than trailer as they've never had to worry about the restrictions on weight like the b licence holders had. Personal preference I see it quite unsafe to tow something that weighs more than the vehicle pulling it, no evidence to support this just my own mind working that the gravity of weights makes it more unstable??


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## wench (22 January 2014)

Rog - I was hoping you may be able to impart some of your knowledge!

I have a b+e liscence, and I am unsure of my trailer weight, the info plate has worn away as its that old. My horse weighs approx 400 kg (weigh tape puts her at just over).

I would like to be buy a car to pull my trailer, on a previous post, you mentioned something like a mondeo should do the trick. I'm not going large distances, and haven't got the money for 4x4.

How do the weights work out on the towing car? Would I need to get my trailer "plated" again?

I'm a bit confused and don't want to break the law. And before anyone says anything yes I plan to run my trailer over a weighbridge to see exactly what it weighs


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## ROG (23 January 2014)

wench said:



			Rog - I was hoping you may be able to impart some of your knowledge!

I have a b+e liscence, and I am unsure of my trailer weight, the info plate has worn away as its that old. My horse weighs approx 400 kg (weigh tape puts her at just over).

I would like to be buy a car to pull my trailer, on a previous post, you mentioned something like a mondeo should do the trick. I'm not going large distances, and haven't got the money for 4x4.

How do the weights work out on the towing car? Would I need to get my trailer "plated" again?

I'm a bit confused and don't want to break the law. And before anyone says anything yes I plan to run my trailer over a weighbridge to see exactly what it weighs
		
Click to expand...

If the trailer manufacturer is still in business then they will be able to arrange a new plate if you give them the serial number off the trailer
If that is not an option then the authorities will go on the total of the tyre load ratings = if you have 4 trailer tyres each rated at 70 kgs then that will be a 2800 kg MAM for example

On every vehicle there is a weight plate hidden under the bonnet or inside a door frame with 4 weights on it
Top figure is the GVW and the second is the GTW
Take GVW from GTW and in the majority of cases that will be the towing capacity

Chances are that your trailer will actually weigh about 900 empty so adding 500 for the load will be a total of 1400
You need a vehicle that will tow 1400 but I would go for one that tows at least 1500
Mondeo tows 1800 for example and is fine if not going over soft ground


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## Dexydoodle (24 January 2014)

Ok, so very confused here.

I passed my test in 02.  So know I need to do a trailer test

Looking at getting a kia sorrento (been told they're good to tow with) but from there I get stuck! 

 I'm probably going to be taking 2 x 600kg horses, + tack, water etc.  So if all that is in the trailer - does it count towards the weight but me & passenger don't?  Also, trying to work out roughly what weight a trailer is (know it will depend on make etc) and whether that lot would leave me within legal limits?


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## ROG (24 January 2014)

Dexydoodle said:



			Ok, so very confused here.

I passed my test in 02.  So know I need to do a trailer test

Looking at getting a kia sorrento (been told they're good to tow with) but from there I get stuck! 

 I'm probably going to be taking 2 x 600kg horses, + tack, water etc.  So if all that is in the trailer - does it count towards the weight but me & passenger don't?  Also, trying to work out roughly what weight a trailer is (know it will depend on make etc) and whether that lot would leave me within legal limits?
		
Click to expand...

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/kia/sorento/towing-weight-limit/
Depending on which model it is from that list then its either a 2000 or 2500 towing capacity

2 x horses at 600 = 1200 plus empty weight of trailer which is probably between 900 and 1000 = a total of 2100 to 2200
Obviously the 2000 will not be enough so it will need a model with a 2500 capacity

Only the weight that goes in the trailer plus the empty weight of the trailer is relevant to both the towing capacity of the vehicle and/or the plated MAM of the trailer - the lower of the towing capacity or the trailer MAM is used as the maximum for the actual total weight

What goes in the vehicle is subject to the vehicle GVW


----------



## km-j (26 January 2014)

Would you check this outfit for me please?

BE License
1. 1343 min kerb weight
2.1880 GVW
3.1500 GTW
4.2600 Trailer
5.967 unladen weight 

Thanks


----------



## ROG (27 January 2014)

km-j said:



			Would you check this outfit for me please?

BE License
1. 1343 min kerb weight
2.1880 GVW
3.1500 *TOWING CAPACITY*
4.2600 Trailer
5.967 unladen weight 

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

the lower figure between numbers 3 and 4 is used as the maximum actual loaded trailer weight so that is 1500
1500 minus 967 = 533 so 533 kgs is the max load that can be loaded into the trailer to keep you ok


----------



## coen (27 January 2014)

Hey,

I have passed the test & the trailer should arrive later this week so wondered what happens regarding insurance.
Do you usually have to pay extra for towing on your current car policy?
SEIB have quoted around £8 a month for the trailer insurance itself, does that sound about right or is it better to get it with your car insurance provider?


----------



## ROG (27 January 2014)

coen said:



			Hey,

I have passed the test & the trailer should arrive later this week so wondered what happens regarding insurance.
Do you usually have to pay extra for towing on your current car policy?
SEIB have quoted around £8 a month for the trailer insurance itself, does that sound about right or is it better to get it with your car insurance provider?
		
Click to expand...

Basic insurance will cover third party for the trailer but to cover the trailer any more than that will involve a discussion with your vehicle insurer

Get quotes from as many as possible but make sure they are all offering the same package


----------



## Ella19 (29 January 2014)

Help please ROG. I'm getting a rav4 2004 2L. I've heard mixed things about them towing full stop. The figures below are for yard owners hb506 trailer which I couldborrow but there is the ppossibility of borrowing a lighter Bates trailer. Horse is 450kg. Would take trailer liscence.

1 - Will be B + E
2 - 2897
3 - 4041
4 - 1500
5 - 2700
6 - 1000

Hope I've got that right. Figures baffle me!


----------



## ROG (29 January 2014)

Ella19 said:



			Help please ROG. I'm getting a rav4 2004 2L. I've heard mixed things about them towing full stop. The figures below are for yard owners hb506 trailer which I couldborrow but there is the ppossibility of borrowing a lighter Bates trailer. Horse is 450kg. Would take trailer liscence.

1 - Will be B + E
2 - 2897
3 - 4041
4 - 1500
5 - 2700
6 - 1000

Hope I've got that right. Figures baffle me!
		
Click to expand...

With a 1500 towing capacity and a trailer that weighs 1000 empty it means the max weight that can be loaded into the trailer is 500 kgs


----------



## Ella19 (29 January 2014)

Thank you, so just my horse at 450kg and a haynet should be fine? Is it ok for breaking and hills?


----------



## ROG (29 January 2014)

Ella19 said:



			Thank you, so just my horse at 450kg and a haynet should be fine? Is it ok for breaking and hills?
		
Click to expand...


I have no idea how any vehicles, apart from LGVs, are at towing


----------



## ArcticFox (5 February 2014)

Do I need to do the driver CPC?

I passed my driving test pre 1997, and passed my HGV class 2 a few years ago (several years ago in fact - wow, time flies! 6 years I think?)


I drive a 7.5tonne horsebox, but only keep horses for my own hobby.  I don't make any money from horses but I do have a farm business (sheep).  I hold the sheep and equine competency certificates but don't use the lorry for anything relating to the sheep. 

I do give a friend a lift with her horse to shows, no renumeration though. 


do I need to do the CPC driver thingy?  is there anything else I need to do too?


----------



## ROG (5 February 2014)

ArcticFox said:



			Do I need to do the driver CPC?

I passed my driving test pre 1997, and passed my HGV class 2 a few years ago (several years ago in fact - wow, time flies! 6 years I think?)


I drive a 7.5tonne horsebox, but only keep horses for my own hobby.  I don't make any money from horses but I do have a farm business (sheep).  I hold the sheep and equine competency certificates but don't use the lorry for anything relating to the sheep. 

I do give a friend a lift with her horse to shows, no renumeration though. 


do I need to do the CPC driver thingy?  is there anything else I need to do too?
		
Click to expand...

The driver cpc (DCPC) is for the COMMERCIAL driving of any vehicle in these categories D1 D1E D DE C1 C1E C CE

PRIVATE driving in any of those categories does not require DCPC with one small exception .... those under age 21 driving a C must pass the initial LGV DCPC but then they become exempt after they reach age 21 - this is because of the lowering of the LGV age from age 21 to age 18
That does affect the actual driving of C1 which has always been at age 18

If a friend pays all your expenses to take their horse to where-ever then that is NOT commercial unless you make, or intend to make, a profit

There is more on LGVs in the LGV CLINIC link below in my signature

Driving a LGV C1 privately/non commercially is exempt tacho and the regs that go with it


----------



## ArcticFox (6 February 2014)

thanks for that. brill x


----------



## mischamoo (17 February 2014)

Hi ROG, I finally have bitten the bullet and booked my trailer test (26th Feb!) and have lessons on 25th. I've been towing (with someone next to me) weekly for the past year so am fairly confident with all points BUT I really don't handle a test situation well and when I took my driving test 12 years ago I was a bundle of nerves and just sat there shaking. Is the trailer test a bit more relaxed? Is there a website you can point me to which gives a bit of a breakdown as to what I'm expected to do on the test?


----------



## ROG (17 February 2014)

mischamoo said:



			Hi ROG, I finally have bitten the bullet and booked my trailer test (26th Feb!) and have lessons on 25th. I've been towing (with someone next to me) weekly for the past year so am fairly confident with all points BUT I really don't handle a test situation well and when I took my driving test 12 years ago I was a bundle of nerves and just sat there shaking. Is the trailer test a bit more relaxed? Is there a website you can point me to which gives a bit of a breakdown as to what I'm expected to do on the test?
		
Click to expand...

*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
DSA REVERSING TEST AREA DIAGRAM
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

The trailer must now be loaded with 600 kgs of sand bags or a 1000 kgs water IBC for the test so most companies are now training with that weight in the trailer

Well explained here

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos


[video=youtube;onLQEXUSQv0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onLQEXUSQv0[/video]

[video=youtube;-6xqb0tH5nU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6xqb0tH5nU[/video]


----------



## gemma3497 (21 February 2014)

Hi ROG, could you please tell me if I can drive my car and trailer on a B licence?

Car is 2004 Mitsubishi shogun sport, trailer is an Ifor Williams 505. Towing the kids ponies, a Shetland and a welsh section b.

Thanks in advance x


----------



## ROG (21 February 2014)

gemma3497 said:



			Hi ROG, could you please tell me if I can drive my car and trailer on a B licence?

Car is 2004 Mitsubishi shogun sport, trailer is an Ifor Williams 505. Towing the kids ponies, a Shetland and a welsh section b.

Thanks in advance x
		
Click to expand...

NO chance !!

The GVW of a shogun is at least 2600 and the MAM of a 505 is at least 2300 so that is a total of at least 4900 which is way above the 3500 limit

You need a vehicle with a lower GVW and a trailer with a lower MAM


----------



## tallyho! (21 February 2014)

Gemma3497... you'll have to do the towing test if you're going to tow with that combo!


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## ROG (21 February 2014)

tallyho! said:



			Gemma3497... you'll have to do the towing test if you're going to tow with that combo!
		
Click to expand...

Or use this alternative ..

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


----------



## gemma3497 (21 February 2014)

Ok thanks for that, looks like I'll be taking the trailer test after all! I passed my test in 97 so pretty gutted, I only just missed out! 
Thanks again x


----------



## Overgrown Pony (1 March 2014)

For a BMW X3 towing a horse weighing 650kg in an Ifor 510 

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE - BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - kerb weight 1790kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2000kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - downrated to whatever it needs to carry this one horse (trailer isn't bought yet)
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 920kg

Cheers


----------



## ROG (2 March 2014)

Overgrown Pony said:



			For a BMW X3 towing a horse weighing 650kg in an Ifor 510 

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE - BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - kerb weight 1790kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2000kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - downrated to whatever it needs to carry this one horse (trailer isn't bought yet)
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 920kg

Cheers 

Click to expand...

As the driver has a B+E there is no reason to down plate any trailer

The GVW is likely to be between 2300 and 2400 according to this list - http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/bmw/x3/towing-weight-limit/

The trailer MAM is about 2700 I think

2400 + 2700 = 5100 so way over the 3500 limit for B licence towing but your info states the driver has B+E so we do not need to bother about that

For a B+E driver simply take the lower figure between the towing capacity and the trailer MAM - that is 2000 in this case
If the trailer weighs 920 empty the take that figure from 2000 which leaves 1080 for the load


The trailer MAM can legally be more than the max towing capacity


----------



## Overgrown Pony (2 March 2014)

ROG said:



			As the driver has a B+E there is no reason to down plate any trailer

The GVW is likely to be between 2300 and 2400 according to this list - http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/bmw/x3/towing-weight-limit/

The trailer MAM is about 2700 I think

2400 + 2700 = 5100 so way over the 3500 limit for B licence towing but your info states the driver has B+E so we do not need to bother about that

For a B+E driver simply take the lower figure between the towing capacity and the trailer MAM - that is 2000 in this case
If the trailer weighs 920 empty the take that figure from 2000 which leaves 1080 for the load


The trailer MAM can legally be more than the max towing capacity
		
Click to expand...

So perfectly legal and safe to carry 1080kg. Thanks so much Rog


----------



## ROG (2 March 2014)

Overgrown Pony said:



			So perfectly legal and safe to carry 1080kg. Thanks so much Rog 

Click to expand...

Best to put the trailer empty over a weighbridge to make certain of its empty weight


----------



## Lambkins (8 March 2014)

I have a jeep Cherokee ( over lander ) trailer is 750kgs pony 500kgs and have a b licence ..where do I stand :/ thank u


----------



## ROG (8 March 2014)

Lambkins said:



			I have a jeep Cherokee ( over lander ) trailer is 750kgs pony 500kgs and have a b licence ..where do I stand :/ thank u
		
Click to expand...

What is the GVW of the vehicle? - will be on a plate under bonnet or hidden in a door frame usually - top figure needed
What is the plated MAM of the trailer? - usually on a sliver plate on the A frame bit

From what I remember the jeep has a GVW about 3000 so the max trailer plated MAM on a B licence will be 750 kgs and most horse trailers are above that empty = not a chance of towing any horse trailer on a B licence

The GVW of the vehicle added to the trailer plated MAM must not total more than 3500 for B towing

You could tow on L plates ...

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


----------



## Optimist (12 March 2014)

Hi Rog

I am ancient enough to be able to drive up to 7.5t lorries and tow a trailer with a car on my original licence.  Would I be able to tow a caravan with my 7.5t lorry?


----------



## ROG (12 March 2014)

Optimist said:



			Hi Rog

I am ancient enough to be able to drive up to 7.5t lorries and tow a trailer with a car on my original licence.  Would I be able to tow a caravan with my 7.5t lorry?
		
Click to expand...

You will have a C1+E 107 code on your licence
That 107 code restricts the total of the vehicle/trailer/caravan GVW/MAM/MTPLM plated weights to 8250 kgs

Some legal examples for your situation ... it all goes on the plated weights not actual weights

Vehicle GVW 7500 + caravan MTPLM 750 kgs = 8250 (this one can also be done with a LGV C1 without the +E)
Vehicle GVW 6500 + caravan MTPLM 1750 kgs = 8250
Vehicle GVW 6200 + trailer MAM 2050 kgs = 8250
Vehicle GVW 5000 + trailer MAM 3250 kgs = 8250


----------



## Optimist (13 March 2014)

ROG said:



			You will have a C1+E 107 code on your licence
That 107 code restricts the total of the vehicle/trailer/caravan GVW/MAM/MTPLM plated weights to 8250 kgs

Some legal examples for your situation ... it all goes on the plated weights not actual weights

Vehicle GVW 7500 + caravan MTPLM 750 kgs = 8250 (this one can also be done with a LGV C1 without the +E)
Vehicle GVW 6500 + caravan MTPLM 1750 kgs = 8250
Vehicle GVW 6200 + trailer MAM 2050 kgs = 8250
Vehicle GVW 5000 + trailer MAM 3250 kgs = 8250
		
Click to expand...

Thank you ROG - Is the Vehicle plated weight the weight on the certificate in the cab? And how would you know the MTPLM of an elderly caravan?  Would it have a similar certificate somewhere?


----------



## ROG (13 March 2014)

Optimist said:



			Thank you ROG - Is the Vehicle plated weight the weight on the certificate in the cab? And how would you know the MTPLM of an elderly caravan?  Would it have a similar certificate somewhere?
		
Click to expand...

Yes its on the certificate in the cab - for a 2 axle vehicle it should have 4 figures on it
top= GVW
second down = GTW
third down = front axle
bottom = rear axle

MTPLM of an old caravan should have a plate on it but if not then google for the model or give the manufacturer a call - if all else fails then the total of all the tyre load ratings will be considered to be the MTPLM/MAM


----------



## Northern Hare (14 March 2014)

Hi,  I am in the process of arranging for a towbar to be fitted to my husband's car.  I used to tow with my own car but now I have a smaller car, my husband's car will become the occasional tow car.

I have an Ifor Williams 505 trailer - in which I tow my 16hh horse.  

I contacted Ifor Williams ref the correct towbar make/model and towbar height, and they said that while the trailer is coupled up to the towbar, you want the measurement to be 430mm (+/- 35mm) from the ground to the centre of the towball.

I've just checked with the company who we are going to use to install the towbar, to make sure that it can be installed at the correct height for the trailer and they have replied to say that "We cannot stipulate the height of the towbar, this is determined by the vehicle itself".

The car is a Mercedes ML 4x4.  Does anyone know how I can check that the towbar is going to be at the correct height for the trailer?  I don't want to pay to have the towbar installed only to find that it's too high or too low.

Final question - we were going to go for a detachable towbar - is that ok for a horse trailer (it's up to 3,000kg tow weight)?

I'd be very grateful for any assistance with this!!


----------



## ROG (14 March 2014)

I have no experience with towbars but perhaps others reading this might be able to help


----------



## bex1984 (17 March 2014)

ROG, can I ask, can you recommend anywhere/anyone in Leicester for replacement trailer tyres?? Ideally somewhere a useless person can easily drive in and out of without any complicated reversing manoeuvres...


----------



## ROG (17 March 2014)

bex1984 said:



			ROG, can I ask, can you recommend anywhere/anyone in Leicester for replacement trailer tyres?? Ideally somewhere a useless person can easily drive in and out of without any complicated reversing manoeuvres... 

Click to expand...

Not a clue on this one !


----------



## bex1984 (17 March 2014)

ROG said:



			Not a clue on this one !
		
Click to expand...

Never mind - thought it was worth a try asking  I'll make some phone calls tomorrow and see if I can find anywhere!


----------



## Lofty580 (19 March 2014)

Hi there 
Hoping you can help me work out if this is allowed, I am looking at getting a 52 plate hyundai Santa Fe 2.0 TD manual, am unsure if would be allowed to tow either an IW 510 or a Bateson deuville trailer with one horse weighing approx 675. 
I have managed to find these figures and am hoping they are correct

1 BE licence
2 kerb weight 1718
3 cannot find!!! 
4 tow capacity 2300
5 IW510 2584, bateson 2300
6 IW510 1000, Bateson 860


----------



## Lofty580 (19 March 2014)

Lofty580 said:



			Hi there 
Hoping you can help me work out if this is allowed, I am looking at getting a 52 plate hyundai Santa Fe 2.0 TD manual, am unsure if would be allowed to tow either an IW 510 or a Bateson deuville trailer with one horse weighing approx 675. 
I have managed to find these figures and am hoping they are correct

1 BE licence
2 kerb weight 1718
3 cannot find!!! 
4 tow capacity 2300
5 IW510 2584, bateson 2300
6 IW510 1000, Bateson 860
		
Click to expand...

Think the gvwr is 2380 if that helps!!


----------



## Lofty580 (19 March 2014)

This has probably already been answered but i am trying to work out am I allowed to tow a trailer with a mam higher than the max towing capacity of the car as long as i don't actually pull more than the towing capacity?!


----------



## ROG (19 March 2014)

Lofty580 said:



			This has probably already been answered but i am trying to work out am I allowed to tow a trailer with a mam higher than the max towing capacity of the car as long as i don't actually pull more than the towing capacity?!
		
Click to expand...

Yes you can because there is no law or rule which states otherwise


----------



## Lofty580 (19 March 2014)

Thank you Rog

Do the figures I put in previous post make sense to allow the towing also?


----------



## ROG (19 March 2014)

Lofty580 said:



			Hi there 
Hoping you can help me work out if this is allowed, I am looking at getting a 52 plate hyundai Santa Fe 2.0 TD manual, am unsure if would be allowed to tow either an IW 510 or a Bateson deuville trailer with one horse weighing approx 675. 
I have managed to find these figures and am hoping they are correct

1 BE licence
2 kerb weight 1718
3 cannot find!!! = Think the gvwr is 2380 if that helps!! 
4 tow capacity 2300
5 IW510 2584, bateson 2300
6 IW510 1000, Bateson 860
		
Click to expand...

Perfectly ok as long as the actual weight of 2300 is not exceeded

For B+E licence holders all that matters is the towing capacity and the trailer MAM as the lower of the two is to be used as the maximum figure when loaded


----------



## Lofty580 (20 March 2014)

ok
another random question but im getting confused! I looked at a car online and for the make, model and year of manufacture it states the towing capacity to be 2300. I have just been to look at the vehicle and these are the figures on the VIN plate

2510
4380
1290
1370

i am assuming the first number is the maximum weight of the car, the second is the train weight of vehicle and trailer combined and that the other two are the axle loading weights. If this is the case does this mean that the towing capacity is 1880???? or is that worked out using the kerb weight not the allowed weight of a car fully laden???
aarrghhhh help please!!!


----------



## ROG (20 March 2014)

Lofty580 said:



			ok
another random question but im getting confused! I looked at a car online and for the make, model and year of manufacture it states the towing capacity to be 2300. I have just been to look at the vehicle and these are the figures on the VIN plate

2510
4380
1290
1370

i am assuming the first number is the maximum weight of the car, the second is the train weight of vehicle and trailer combined and that the other two are the axle loading weights. If this is the case does this mean that the towing capacity is 1880???? or is that worked out using the kerb weight not the allowed weight of a car fully laden???
aarrghhhh help please!!!
		
Click to expand...

you got the relevant weights correct

In the greater majority of cases but not all the GTW 4380 minus the GVW 2510 will be the max towing capacity 
4380 - 2510 = 1870

Kerb weight has no relevance in those calculations 
Kerb/empty/unladen weight is only needed when trying to work out what is allowed for payload


----------



## LJScott (20 March 2014)

1 B licence
2 kerb weight I am looking at Landy Freelander 01-03  so around 1562 - the gvwr is 2060
4 tow capacity 1800
5 Sinclair Sigma 4 - Current MAM- 2200 - looking at getting it downplated to around 1450? so I don't need to get my B+E right now
6 Unladen weight - 750 

I have one 14.2 pony weighing approx 450 and the childrens 11.2 pony weighing 250 I am thinking of towing one pony at a time to begin with. I have not as yet bought a towing car so any advise on something economical and suitable for a family would be great  also within a budget of about £1500-£2000 that I can tow on a B would be great


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## ROG (20 March 2014)

LJScott said:



			1 B licence
2 kerb weight I am looking at Landy Freelander 01-03  so around 1562 - the gvwr is 2060
4 tow capacity 1800
5 Sinclair Sigma 4 - Current MAM- 2200 - looking at getting it downplated to around 1450? so I don't need to get my B+E right now
6 Unladen weight - 750 

I have one 14.2 pony weighing approx 450 and the childrens 11.2 pony weighing 250 I am thinking of towing one pony at a time to begin with. I have not as yet bought a towing car so any advise on something economical and suitable for a family would be great  also within a budget of about £1500-£2000 that I can tow on a B would be great 

Click to expand...

I cannot find any link for the Sinclair trailer company so if it is no longer trading then the trailer cannot be down plated because a trailer under 3500 kgs MAM can only be down plated by the manufacturer

If it can be down plated then the max plated MAM for a 2060 GVW vehicle is 1440 kgs

If you had a trailer plated at say 1400 and it was something like a Bateson Derby twin weighing 675 empty then it can take a payload of 725 kgs


----------



## LJScott (20 March 2014)

Thanks for your speedy reply! I have been in contact with Wessex trailers who will downplate the trailer when I provide the serial number to them as Pegasus bought Sinclair and Wessex bought Pegasus so they are able to do it for me  So if I got the trailer downplated to 1440kg then I would be able to tow using a freelander on my B ?


----------



## ROG (20 March 2014)

LJScott said:



			Thanks for your speedy reply! I have been in contact with Wessex trailers who will downplate the trailer when I provide the serial number to them as Pegasus bought Sinclair and Wessex bought Pegasus so they are able to do it for me  So if I got the trailer downplated to 1440kg then I would be able to tow using a freelander on my B ?
		
Click to expand...

If the figures are as you state then yes

The one extra rule for towing a trailer over 750 kgs MAM on a B licence is this....

... the vehicle GVW added to the trailer plated MAM must not total more than 3500 kgs

All the other general towing rules apply to both B and B+E towing


----------



## LJScott (20 March 2014)

Brilliant thanks so much for your advice


----------



## Fat_Pony (21 March 2014)

Would a Hyundai ix35 be suitable for b licence towing? 2.0 CRDi 4WD. GVW is 2140kg. Max towing capacity of 2000kg. Would be towing either an ifor 401/403 or cheval liberte gold one with single 500kg horse.


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## ROG (21 March 2014)

Fat_Pony said:



			Would a Hyundai ix35 be suitable for b licence towing? 2.0 CRDi 4WD. GVW is 2140kg. Max towing capacity of 2000kg. Would be towing either an ifor 401/403 or cheval liberte gold one with single 500kg horse.
		
Click to expand...

3500 - 2140 = 1360 for the max trailer MAM
Down plate via contact with manufacturer from what ever the trailer is now to 1350

Lets assume 800 for the empty trailer so 1350 - 800 = 550 for the horse/payload

A lighter empty trailer would give a little more wiggle room on the payload and chevals tend to be under 700 empty


----------



## Orchardbeck (23 March 2014)

B licence towing - I have an Ifor Williams 506, and a 400kg pony. If I were to downplate my trailer, are there any vehicles that would be legal for me to tow it with? For example a Kia Sportage, or a Nissan qashquai? I apologise for being vague, I really haven't a clue on figures. Thank you.


----------



## ROG (24 March 2014)

Orchardbeck said:



			B licence towing - I have an Ifor Williams 506, and a 400kg pony. If I were to downplate my trailer, are there any vehicles that would be legal for me to tow it with? For example a Kia Sportage, or a Nissan qashquai? I apologise for being vague, I really haven't a clue on figures. Thank you.
		
Click to expand...

The empty weight of a 506 is 920 kgs so with horse and a few other bits in it the actual weight is likely to be just under 1400


If you could get it down plated to 1400 then the maximum GVW for the towing vehicle would be 2100


http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/kia/sportage/gross-vehicle-weight/ = kia sportage 
Depending on model that is a possibility - choose any with a max GVW of 2100

You could down plate the trailer to 1350 which would give more options but that is very close on max weight with 920 + 400 = 1320 so if horsey puts on a few kgs or you need to put a few bits in the trailer then you would be overloaded for the trailer

To get that link with the GVWs I googled - kia sportage kgs gvw - so you could do the same for other types of vehicles

When you find a vehicle you like click on more info and check that the towing capacity can cope with the actual weight being towed - weights are near the bottom so scroll down once the info link has been clicked


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## Orchardbeck (24 March 2014)

Thanks ROG, really helpful!


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## ROG (28 March 2014)

Ginge Crosby said:



			My post is a future one - deciding whether I need to actually take my test or not, probably will end up doing it anyway but imagine for now I'm on a B licence only...

Tow vehicle - Honda CRV 2l petrol
trailer - either ifor Williams 505 or bayhill (haven't bought it yet!)
Usually one horse (500kg) but would like to be able to take a friend (another 500kg).

Am I dreaming, that i'd be able to do that on a B only licence? Is my tow vehicle up to the job?
		
Click to expand...

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/honda/cr-v/gross-vehicle-weight/ - which model CRV is it in that list ?

Assuming it has a GVW of 2100 kgs then the trailer cannot have a plated MAM of more than 1400 kgs because that would make the max total of 3500 allowed for B licence towing

You have a great vehicle for B licence towing so you now need to get the right trailer to be able to transport ONE horse

TWO horses would deffo need to be under B+E rules

If your horse is 500 kgs then a trailer such as an IFOR HB401/403 with an empty weight of 800 max and down plated at little or no cost from 1600 to 1400 by contacting Ifor wiliams would then allow for a load of 600 kgs



*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


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## mischamoo (28 March 2014)

ROG: asking on behalf of a friend, the trailer that is used for the B+E test, must it be a closed box body as stated on the gov.uk website or can a horse trailer be used?


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## ROG (28 March 2014)

mischamoo said:



			ROG: asking on behalf of a friend, the trailer that is used for the B+E test, must it be a closed box body as stated on the gov.uk website or can a horse trailer be used?
		
Click to expand...

A horse trailer is a closed box type trailer but how would the required load of 600 kgs of sand bags or 1000 litre filled IBC water container be sorted?


----------



## Ginge Crosby (28 March 2014)

Excellent advice ROG thanks. 
Ok, so now forgetting trying to tow on a B licence only, and say i'm going to do my B&E - is my tow vehicle (Honda crv) up to the job of towing 2 horses on a b&e licence? using the filters on that webpage you provided it seems to be the estate I-vtec gvw 2075kg. Just worried that it doesn't feel as 'meaty' as other trucks I've driven, and worried with the hills round here we'd struggle with two horses on.


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## mischamoo (28 March 2014)

ROG said:



			A horse trailer is a closed box type trailer but how would the required load of 600 kgs of sand bags or 1000 litre filled IBC water container be sorted?
		
Click to expand...

I understand the trailer needs to have the water or sand load but what  do you mean by how will it be sorted? Do you mean how will it be secured if it's in a horse trailer?


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## ROG (28 March 2014)

Ginge Crosby said:



			Excellent advice ROG thanks. 
Ok, so now forgetting trying to tow on a B licence only, and say i'm going to do my B&E - is my tow vehicle (Honda crv) up to the job of towing 2 horses on a b&e licence? using the filters on that webpage you provided it seems to be the estate I-vtec gvw 2075kg. Just worried that it doesn't feel as 'meaty' as other trucks I've driven, and worried with the hills round here we'd struggle with two horses on.
		
Click to expand...

A petrol will never FEEL as meaty as a diesel

It seems from clicking on the MORE INFO links the towing capacity is 1700 kgs

With 2 horses weighing a total of 1000 then the max empty weight of a two horse trailer is going to be 700 max and I have never come across one with that low an empty weight so it seems you will need a towing vehicle with a greater towing capacity perhaps at least 2000 kgs


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## ROG (28 March 2014)

mischamoo said:



			I understand the trailer needs to have the water or sand load but what  do you mean by how will it be sorted? Do you mean how will it be secured if it's in a horse trailer?
		
Click to expand...

Yes but more getting one or the other in the first place without it costing a lot of money and time ......


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## mischamoo (28 March 2014)

ROG said:



			Yes but more getting one or the other in the first place without it costing a lot of money and time ......
		
Click to expand...

Yes I see what you mean, a lot of time effort and money to ensure it meets the regs for the test. I'll pass info on, many thanks.


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## ROG (30 March 2014)

Mhairi Walker said:



			Hi, I have spent hours reading about this and am still uncertain. I would be really greatful for any help.    
I am currently on a B licence and know that at some point I will do the B +E but would love to be able to tow on the B licence if possible.  Is there any chance with the following combination, and if so what would the trailer need to be downgraded to?
Towing vehicle. Toyota Hilux Double Cab 2.5l pick up with an open back
Trailer .  ifor williams hb505 built in 2004
Welsh A pony - under 350kg?
Thanks again for any help!
		
Click to expand...

The Hilux has a GVW of about 3040 kgs
The HB505 has a MAM of 2340 kgs
Those added together make 5380 which is way over the 3500 limit for B licence towing


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## Mhairi Walker (30 March 2014)

Hi
Thanks for previous information.
B licence 
Ifor Williams HB505 registered 2004
Ford S max 2.0litre diesel registered 2011
Small pony - max 350kg

Would it be possible to tow this combination legally and if so what would you advise the trailer weight to be downgraded to?
Many thanks again for any help?


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## ROG (30 March 2014)

Mhairi Walker said:



			Hi
Thanks for previous information.
B licence 
Ifor Williams HB505 registered 2004
Ford S max 2.0litre diesel registered 2011
Small pony - max 350kg

Would it be possible to tow this combination legally and if so what would you advise the trailer weight to be downgraded to?
Many thanks again for any help?
		
Click to expand...

The S-max has a GVW of 2505 so the maximum plated weight for a trailer on a B licence would be 995 so as not to go over the 3500 limit

As most trailers are at least 700 empty then down plating to 995 would only leave 295 at best for the load/horse


The GVW of a vehicle added to the trailer plated MAM must not total more than 3500 for B licence towing

Something like a Nissan Xtrail where the GVW is 2200 with a trailer such as a HB401/403 down plated from 1600 to 1300 via contacting the manufacturer at little or no cost is the way to go because that will leave about 500 kgs for the load/horse

So far you have chosen vehicles with too high a GVW to make B licence towing of a horse trailer possible

You need a vehicle with a GVW no higher than 2200 kgs and a trailer where the empty weight is no more than 800 kgs and have that trailer down plated to fit in with the 3500 rule


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## moodymare1987 (31 March 2014)

Just curious as to whether I need my b + e test I was adamant I did but had conflicting advice so thought would ask on here.
Changing my vehicle to a vw tiguan 2.0 diesel automatic 140ps think it's 2200 the weight
Have a 16.2 not got a trailer yet but if anyone could recommend a trailer if the set up can be achieved. Although not an issue as I was planning on sitting my test anyway.


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## moodymare1987 (31 March 2014)

Just realised I will need to do my trailer test as will be lucky to stay within the 3500 kg mark so will just do it anyway


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## ROG (31 March 2014)

moodymare1987 said:



			Just curious as to whether I need my b + e test I was adamant I did but had conflicting advice so thought would ask on here.
Changing my vehicle to a vw tiguan 2.0 diesel automatic 140ps think it's 2200 the weight
Have a 16.2 not got a trailer yet but if anyone could recommend a trailer if the set up can be achieved. Although not an issue as I was planning on sitting my test anyway.
		
Click to expand...

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/volkswagen/tiguan/gross-vehicle-weight/ - if it is the 2200 GVW in that list then you can have a trailer with a 1300 kgs plated MAM on a B licence

If you got something like a HB401/403 with an empty weight of just under 800 kgs then that leaves just over 500 kgs for the horse/load - such a trailer would need down plating from 1600 to 1300 by contacting the manufacturer at little or no cost


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## moodymare1987 (1 April 2014)

ROG said:



http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/volkswagen/tiguan/gross-vehicle-weight/ - if it is the 2200 GVW in that list then you can have a trailer with a 1300 kgs plated MAM on a B licence

If you got something like a HB401/403 with an empty weight of just under 800 kgs then that leaves just over 500 kgs for the horse/load - such a trailer would need 
down plating from 1600 to 1300 by contacting the manufacturer at little or no cost
		
Click to expand...


Thank you that's great to know opens up my options anyway. And yes it is the 2200 on that list


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## Bri (3 April 2014)

Hi Rog,

Was hoping you could give me a bit of advice. We currently have an ifor 510 which we were planning to pull using a freelander sport 2.5l, and taking my b & e test. However, after checking the towing weight of the freelander, it appears I couldnt tow with a horse in at all (assuming I've got numbers right).

We also have a qashqai which we are considering trading in for a 4wd anyway, so was wondering if you could recommend a vehicle that would be suitable for pulling the 510 and also using as a day to day car - so not ernomously expensive to run? Is there any combination that would allow me to tow one horse of around 550kg, in the 510, without taking the b&e test? 

Thank you very much!


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## ROG (3 April 2014)

Bri said:



			Hi Rog,

Was hoping you could give me a bit of advice. We currently have an ifor 510 which we were planning to pull using a freelander sport 2.5l, and taking my b & e test. However, after checking the towing weight of the freelander, it appears I couldnt tow with a horse in at all (assuming I've got numbers right).

We also have a qashqai which we are considering trading in for a 4wd anyway, so was wondering if you could recommend a vehicle that would be suitable for pulling the 510 and also using as a day to day car - so not ernomously expensive to run? Is there any combination that would allow me to tow one horse of around 550kg, in the 510, without taking the b&e test? 

Thank you very much!
		
Click to expand...

From my research on the internet it seems the freelander has a towing capacity of 2000 and the weight of the empty 510 is 1000 so that leaves 1000 for the horse in which case I fail to see any problem with that combination on a B+E licence


There is no way to use a 510 with a horse of 550 kgs on a B licence unless you can find a towing vehicle with a GVW of 1900 which also has a towing capacity of at least 1600
If you could find such a vehicle then down plating the 510 to 1600 would need to be done


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## Bri (3 April 2014)

Thanks very much, thats good to know that I'm just appalling at maths. Think I may have been on an inaccurate website, as I'm sure it had the max towing weight as 1200kg. 

So based on your sums I'm fine to tow the trailer with the freelander on a provisional license (as long as Im accompanied?) 

Are there any cars that you would recommend if I wanted to carry two big horses? 

Thanks again.


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## ROG (3 April 2014)

Bri said:



			Thanks very much, thats good to know that I'm just appalling at maths. Think I may have been on an inaccurate website, as I'm sure it had the max towing weight as 1200kg. 

So based on your sums I'm fine to tow the trailer with the freelander on a provisional license (as long as Im accompanied?) 

Are there any cars that you would recommend if I wanted to carry two big horses? 

Thanks again.
		
Click to expand...

B+E whether under provisional or full rules is fine

The one usual way to check the towing limit is to find the weight plate on the vehicle which maybe under the bonnet or hidden in a door frame then deduct the top figure from the second figure - does not always mean that is the max towing capacity but in most cases it works ok

That info might also be on the V5 document or in the handbook


There are so many vehicles capable of towing a 1000 kgs trailer loaded with 2 horses that it would be silly of me to start listing those with perhaps a 2500 or more towing capacity

Find out what the actual weight is that you wish to tow then find a vehicle you like and check out its max braked towing capacity - I would recommend choosing one that has at least 100 more towing capacity than the weight you wish to tow


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## Honey91 (3 April 2014)

This is such a helpful thread - great idea!

Okay so I have a Fabia Ambiente TDI 80 estate, 1422cc Diesel (had to look this up in the manual)

This is what I have so far... 
1 - No B+E
2 - I don't know the weight, but it says in the manual that it can tow 450KG for an "un-braked" trailer, - and 1000KG for a braked trailer
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - don't know what this is
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle: 450KG for an "un-braked" trailer, - and 1000KG for a braked trailer
5 - I dont have a trailer yet
6 - I haven't got a trailer yet


I really want to buy/rent a single horse trailer to tow my 14.2hh (450kg) pony around in. Does this sound feasible? And Does anyone have any recommendations for a trailer that is good value for money, and as light as possible? 

Thanks!


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## ROG (3 April 2014)

Honey91 said:



			This is such a helpful thread - great idea!

Okay so I have a Fabia Ambiente TDI 80 estate, 1422cc Diesel (had to look this up in the manual)

This is what I have so far... 
1 - No B+E
2 - I don't know the weight, but it says in the manual that it can tow 450KG for an "un-braked" trailer, - and 1000KG for a braked trailer
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - don't know what this is
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle: 450KG for an "un-braked" trailer, - and 1000KG for a braked trailer
5 - I dont have a trailer yet
6 - I haven't got a trailer yet


I really want to buy/rent a single horse trailer to tow my 14.2hh (450kg) pony around in. Does this sound feasible? And Does anyone have any recommendations for a trailer that is good value for money, and as light as possible? 

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

not possible with any trailer as you only have a 1000 kgs towing capacity


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## Honey91 (3 April 2014)

Oh well.. Look's like I need a new car and trailer then.. Thanks!


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## ROG (3 April 2014)

Honey91 said:



			Oh well.. Look's like I need a new car and trailer then.. Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

you need something like a ford mondeo with a lightweight and down plated trailer

GVW is the maximum a vehicle can legally be when fully loaded

MAM is the maximum the trailer can legally be when fully loaded

When those two are added together they cannot total more than 3500 for B licence towing


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## Holidays_are_coming (3 April 2014)

Ok ROG I have a friend looking to get some transport she will need to take her test but a 4x4 and trailer is looking to be her best option, she has £6000 for both car and trailer, what is her best options? The horse is a big 17hh so probably weighs about 700kg and she will only be towing one.

Thanks


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## ROG (3 April 2014)

Holidays_are_coming said:



			Ok ROG I have a friend looking to get some transport she will need to take her test but a 4x4 and trailer is looking to be her best option, she has £6000 for both car and trailer, what is her best options? The horse is a big 17hh so probably weighs about 700kg and she will only be towing one.

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

I have no idea what would be best but the last link in my signature below might give some ideas .....


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## Remi (4 April 2014)

Hi ROG, I'm hoping you can help me out:

1 - B license
2 - Curb weight - 1597kg
3 - GVW - 2400kg
4 - GTW - can't find this but remember it being around 3500kg
5 - trailer MAM /
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer /

Would I ever be able to downgrade a trailer enough to tow without a license?


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## ROG (4 April 2014)

Remi said:



			1 - B license
3 - GVW - 2400kg
Would I ever be able to downgrade a trailer enough to tow without a license?
		
Click to expand...

The maximum trailer plated MAM would be 1100 kgs and the lightest trailer I know of is a Bateson Derby at 675 kgs so if that was down plated from 1700 to 1100 then it would only leave 425 kgs for the horse/load


you need a vehicle where the GVW is nearer to 2200kg to make this more of a realistic thing


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## SarahRicoh (5 April 2014)

Hello,

Got a question for you if that's okay?

would this car >> http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...ssat/onesearchad/used,nearlynew,new?logcode=p

Be legal on a B license towing a Rice Beaufort Trailer (700kg) with a pony weighing max 500kg??
Sorry it confuses me


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## ROG (5 April 2014)

SarahRicoh said:



			Hello,

Got a question for you if that's okay?

would this car >> http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...ssat/onesearchad/used,nearlynew,new?logcode=p

Be legal on a B license towing a Rice Beaufort Trailer (700kg) with a pony weighing max 500kg??
Sorry it confuses me 

Click to expand...

I need to know the GVW for that vehicle and the plated MAM for the trailer - those are the plated max weights which each can legally be when fully loaded

What they actually weigh is of no use for licencing purposes as licences go on potential legal max weights


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## ROG (5 April 2014)

ROG said:



			I need to know the GVW for that vehicle and the plated MAM for the trailer - those are the plated max weights which each can legally be when fully loaded

What they actually weigh is of no use for licencing purposes as licences go on potential legal max weights
		
Click to expand...

Vehicle GVW will be on a weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or inside a door frame
Trailer MAM will be on a silver plate on the A frame part of the trailer
GVW + MAM must not total more than 3500 for B licence towing


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## ROG (6 April 2014)

This thread makes interesting reading in regards to towing with a car on a B licence - https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?659998-Towing-with-a-car-query


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## Tayto (16 April 2014)

I need to sit a B+E test in order to tow my IW505 however is my dad (who is licensed to tow) allowed to sit with me and practice towing the trailer empty?


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## ROG (17 April 2014)

Tayto said:



			I need to sit a B+E test in order to tow my IW505 however is my dad (who is licensed to tow) allowed to sit with me and practice towing the trailer empty?
		
Click to expand...

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


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## Shutterbug (23 April 2014)

Can someone possibly confirm the towing capability of an 06 Hyundai Santa Fe 2.4 CDX  - I have trawled the internet and cannot find an answer - the guy selling it tells says 2500kg but I am unable to find any clarification of this online.


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## ROG (23 April 2014)

Shutterbug said:



			Can someone possibly confirm the towing capability of an 06 Hyundai Santa Fe 2.4 CDX  - I have trawled the internet and cannot find an answer - the guy selling it tells says 2500kg but I am unable to find any clarification of this online.
		
Click to expand...

The 01 to 05 models state 1200 max

I cannot find 06 2.4 model

Best advice is to ask the seller what the top two figures are on the weight plate hidden under  the bonnet or in a door frame then deduct the top figure from the second to give the max towing capacity


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## Shutterbug (23 April 2014)

ROG said:



			The 01 to 05 models state 1200 max

I cannot find 06 2.4 model

Best advice is to ask the seller what the top two figures are on the weight plate hidden under  the bonnet or in a door frame then deduct the top figure from the second to give the max towing capacity
		
Click to expand...

Thanks hun - not convinced I wont have to sell a kidney to fuel it, so not gonna bother - looking at a Hyundai Santa Fe 2.0 TD Automatic.  The search continues


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## km-j (26 April 2014)

Setup;
1 - BE
2 - 1410
3 - 1960
4 - 1700
5 - 1600
6 - 767

Thanks


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## ROG (27 April 2014)

km-j said:



			Setup;
1 - BE
2 - 1410
3 - 1960
4 - 1700
5 - 1600
6 - 767

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

You can legally load the trailer with 833 kgs

NOTE- if the trailer was down plated to 1500 it would be legal for a B only licence holder and could be loaded with 733 kgs


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## AppaloosaPonyHorse (11 May 2014)

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
B (but planning to get BE licence)

2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
1449

3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
2150

4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the
 towing vehicle
1500kg towing capacity

5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
MGW = 2340 Weight Capacity 1435kg

6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
905kg


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## ROG (11 May 2014)

AppaloosaPonyHorse said:



			1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
B (but planning to get BE licence)

2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
1449

3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
2150

4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the
 towing vehicle
1500kg towing capacity

5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
MGW = 2340 Weight Capacity 1435kg

6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
905kg
		
Click to expand...

On a B licence = no because 2150 + 2340 = 4490 which is 990 over the 3500 limit
The trailer could be down plated to 1350 but then it would only leave 445 for the trailer load/horse

On a B+E licence the lower figure between 1500 and 2340 is used so 1500 - 905 = 595 for the trailer load/horse


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## AppaloosaPonyHorse (11 May 2014)

ROG said:



			On a B licence = no because 2150 + 2340 = 4490 which is 990 over the 3500 limit
The trailer could be down plated to 1350 but then it would only leave 445 for the trailer load/horse

On a B+E licence the lower figure between 1500 and 2340 is used so 1500 - 905 = 595 for the trailer load/horse
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog

Hope I got the figures right, was going to change my little car for a ford mondeo 1.8 and get an IF 505 

If you can recommend similar vehicle/trailer combo you think is good would be much appreciated.

Don't want 4x4 as need cheaper car to run day to day and would be doing mostly local shows to tow to 2-3 times a month.

Would most of time be towing one 15hh horse who is about 500kg (but needs to lose weight lol) 

Thanks


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## ROG (11 May 2014)

AppaloosaPonyHorse said:



			Thanks Rog

Hope I got the figures right, was going to change my little car for a ford mondeo 1.8 and get an IF 505 

If you can recommend similar vehicle/trailer combo you think is good would be much appreciated.

Don't want 4x4 as need cheaper car to run day to day and would be doing mostly local shows to tow to 2-3 times a month.

Would most of time be towing one 15hh horse who is about 500kg (but needs to lose weight lol) 

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

How about this on a B licence

OCTAVIA ESTATE - 1.6 TDI CR SE 4x4 5dr (yes, a 4X4 !!)
 Gross vehicle weight 1998 kg 
 Max towing weight - braked 2000 kg 

 BATESON DERBY trailer
 Empty 675
 MAM 1700 but down plated to 1500 

 Max load/horse for trailer 835 kgs

 OR = Alternative trailer
 IW HB401/403
 Empty 800
 MAM 1600 but down plated to 1500

 Max load/horse for trailer 700 kgs

OR
HB 505 trailer
MAM 2340 down plated to 1500
Empty 905
Max load/horse for trailer = 595 kgs


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## AppaloosaPonyHorse (11 May 2014)

ROG said:



			How about this on a B licence

OCTAVIA ESTATE - 1.6 TDI CR SE 4x4 5dr (yes, a 4X4 !!)
 Gross vehicle weight 1998 kg 
 Max towing weight - braked 2000 kg 

 BATESON DERBY trailer
 Empty 675
 MAM 1700 but down plated to 1500 

 Max load/horse for trailer 835 kgs

 OR = Alternative trailer
 IW HB401/403
 Empty 800
 MAM 1600 but down plated to 1500

 Max load/horse for trailer 700 kgs

OR
HB 505 trailer
MAM 2340 down plated to 1500
Empty 905
Max load/horse for trailer = 595 kgs
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog

Will definitely look into all of those options


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## AppaloosaPonyHorse (11 May 2014)

Meant to add this to last post

I am in Ireland and think B/BE licence same rules

This is what it says for B

What trailers does my category B licence cover?

You can tow a trailer with a

    MAM no greater than 750kg, and/or
    Where the MAM of the trailer exceeds 750kg but where the MAM of the vehicle and trailer does not exceed 3500kg. 

So this is the same as in UK right? 

Are single horse boxes usually lighter than double ones? might be good option for me


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## ROG (12 May 2014)

AppaloosaPonyHorse said:



			Meant to add this to last post

I am in Ireland and think B/BE licence same rules

This is what it says for B

What trailers does my category B licence cover?

You can tow a trailer with a

    MAM no greater than 750kg, and/or
    Where the MAM of the trailer exceeds 750kg but where the MAM of the vehicle and trailer does not exceed 3500kg. 

So this is the same as in UK right? 

Are single horse boxes usually lighter than double ones? might be good option for me 

Click to expand...

Same as mainland UK

Singles are usually lighter empty than doubles so allow more payload when down plated



B licence towing of a trailer over 750 kgs plated MAM- add vehicle plated GVW (MAM) to trailer plated MAM and that total must not be more than 3500 kgs - that is the one extra rule on top of the usual towing rules


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## Laura2408 (12 May 2014)

Hi!

Can anyone tell me whether I can tow a single trailer (and which ones?) with an audi a3 1.6 tdi?
Braked weight of 1600kg I think and horse is a 14hh pony.

Also would I need to do test?

Thanks


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## ROG (12 May 2014)

Laura2408 said:



			Hi!

Can anyone tell me whether I can tow a single trailer (and which ones?) with an audi a3 1.6 tdi?
Braked weight of 1600kg I think and horse is a 14hh pony.

Also would I need to do test?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/audi/a3/gross-vehicle-weight/ - which model from that lot is yours?

I assume you only have a B licence because you mention that you might need a test

Most in the 1.6 range have a GVW of about 1900 so I will use that as the example

Car
GVW 1900
Towing capacity 1600 or more 

Trailer
Max MAM 1600


Using a trailer such as an IW HB401/403 you would be perfectly legal on a B licence because 1900 + 1600 = 3500 which is the max allowed for B licence towing

As the 401/3 has an empty weight of just under 800 then you can load 800 into it


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## Laura2408 (12 May 2014)

Thankyou ROG.
I thought it may tow one horse plus trailer however people have said it's dangerous due to breaking etc in a car?

I'm off to google terms now as I know nothing of cars or trailers! 

The model is this however is older than this car (2010)
http://carleasingmadesimple.com/bus...i/a3-diesel-sportback_2/58499/technical-data/


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## ROG (12 May 2014)

Laura2408 said:



			Thankyou ROG.
I thought it may tow one horse plus trailer however people have said it's dangerous due to breaking etc in a car?

I'm off to google terms now as I know nothing of cars or trailers! 

The model is this however is older than this car (2010)
http://carleasingmadesimple.com/bus...i/a3-diesel-sportback_2/58499/technical-data/

Click to expand...

Well within safe and legal requirements for B toing with a trailer similar to the one I suggested

You could get something like a double HB505 and have it down plated to 1600 from 2340 and as it weighs 900 empty then it can still take a load of 700

Vehicles are designed to tow certain weights and as long as all is loaded correctly with all components in good order as well as being driven safely then there will be no issues

Loads tow horse trailers with basic family cars quite safely


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## Gryfiss (14 May 2014)

Hi rog I passed my test today whoop whoop !! Now I'm thinking of swapping my403 trailer for a 511 , I currently tow with an estate with a towing limit of 1600 would I need to deplate a 511 to 1600 until I get a new car with a tow weight that could take 2 horses my horse weighs 500 kilos . I think the cars laden weight is 2020 
Can you also replicate a trailer more than once.
Thanks in advance


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## AppaloosaPonyHorse (15 May 2014)

Hi Rog

Thanks for all your advice before

After careful decison making and what is best long term and trying to be safe as possible towing going to get my BE licence as soon as possible as just gives a lot more options and flexibility. Going to go look at a Nissan X trail (diesal 4x4, 2.2, year 2007) hopefully soon that looks good and within my budget with trade in from current car and I like the IW HB505 so hopefully can get a decent 2nd hand one.

These are figures:

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE

will have BE licence

2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle

1490kg

3 - GVW of the towing vehicle

2050

4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle

towing capacity 2000kg

5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres

2340kg

6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

905kg


Thanks a mill


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## ROG (15 May 2014)

Gryfiss said:



			Hi rog I passed my test today whoop whoop !! Now I'm thinking of swapping my403 trailer for a 511 , I currently tow with an estate with a towing limit of 1600 would I need to deplate a 511 to 1600 until I get a new car with a tow weight that could take 2 horses my horse weighs 500 kilos . I think the cars laden weight is 2020 
Can you also replicate a trailer more than once.
Thanks in advance
		
Click to expand...

No legal reason to down plate - the max loaded trailer weight limit using a B+E licence is the lower of the trailer MAM or the towing capacity of the vehicle

what do mean by replicate?

Loads will be after your HB403 especially if it has already been down plated to ????


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## ROG (15 May 2014)

AppaloosaPonyHorse said:



			Hi Rog

Thanks for all your advice before

After careful decison making and what is best long term and trying to be safe as possible towing going to get my BE licence as soon as possible as just gives a lot more options and flexibility. Going to go look at a Nissan X trail (diesal 4x4, 2.2, year 2007) hopefully soon that looks good and within my budget with trade in from current car and I like the IW HB505 so hopefully can get a decent 2nd hand one.

These are figures:

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE

will have BE licence

2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle

1490kg

3 - GVW of the towing vehicle

2050

4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle

towing capacity 2000kg

5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres

2340kg

6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

905kg


Thanks a mill
		
Click to expand...

Using B+E licence the maximum load for the trailer will be 1095 kgs (2000-905=1095)
Although the trailer MAM is 2340 the 2000 towing limit is lower so that determines the maximum when loaded

Using B licence the trailer would need down plating to a max of 1450 with a max possible load of 545 (1450-905=545)


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## Gryfiss (15 May 2014)

thank you for your reply

It was meant to say can you re plate a trailer more than once!

So just double checking if the towing limit on my car is 1600 and I get a 511 which maximum capacity is 2700 but unladen-ed weight is 1000 but I put my horse in which will make it 1550 .I will defiantly be legal and wont need to down plate?!

The  403 I have is 4yrs old I had it down plated to 1420 . its unladen-ed weight is 710 how much do you think I would get for it?

Thanks again xx


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## ROG (15 May 2014)

Gryfiss said:



			thank you for your reply

It was meant to say can you re plate a trailer more than once!

So just double checking if the towing limit on my car is 1600 and I get a 511 which maximum capacity is 2700 but unladen-ed weight is 1000 but I put my horse in which will make it 1550 .I will defiantly be legal and wont need to down plate?!

The  403 I have is 4yrs old I had it down plated to 1420 . its unladen-ed weight is 710 how much do you think I would get for it?

Thanks again xx
		
Click to expand...

A trailer can be up or down plated by the manufacturer as many times as you like

Perfectly legal to do what you say within the 1600 limit
There is no law or rule which states that a vehicle towing capacity must be able to accommodate a trailer MAM
There are a few internet myths ...... 

No idea on trailer sales


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## Gryfiss (15 May 2014)

awsome thanks for your help xxx


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## frezek1 (16 May 2014)

Hi ROG, I have some doubts re: heavy towing and I hope you would be able to clarify them.  Scenario: VW Touareg II  2179kg kerbweight, GVW 2860, towing capacity 3500kg. Now, towing a trailer (e.g. horse box / car transporter) with MAM 3500kg (unladen 1000kg) Let's adopt that towing VW's real weight is 2400kg and trailer has a load of 2100kg on it which makes a total 3100kg actual trailer weight. As a result however complete legal (driver has got a B+E license, no GWV/MAM is exceeded, listed GTW is not exceeded) the trailer is physically much heavier (700kg) than the towing vehicle. Is is really safe to tow under these circumstances? Is it advisable to load some extra stuff (e.g. sand bags) to the towing  vehicle to make it just heavier in above scenario? Thank you.


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## ROG (16 May 2014)

frezek1 said:



			Hi ROG, I have some doubts re: &#8220;heavy towing&#8221; and I hope you would be able to clarify them.  Scenario: VW Touareg II &#8211; 2179kg kerbweight, GVW 2860, towing capacity 3500kg. Now, towing a trailer (e.g. horse box / car transporter) with MAM 3500kg (unladen 1000kg) Let's adopt that towing VW's real weight is 2400kg and trailer has a load of 2100kg on it which makes a total 3100kg actual trailer weight. As a result however complete legal (driver has got a B+E license, no GWV/MAM is exceeded, listed GTW is not exceeded) the trailer is physically much heavier (700kg) than the towing vehicle. Is is really safe to tow under these circumstances? Is it advisable to load some extra stuff (e.g. sand bags) to the towing  vehicle to make it just heavier in above scenario? Thank you.
		
Click to expand...

The 3500 towing capacity is designed to be used with an empty vehicle but it is always SAFER to have the towing vehicle as heavy as possible with the trailer as light as possible - physics dictate that


----------



## frezek1 (16 May 2014)

....extra load onto towing car (e.g. sand bags) are welcome then ;-)    My point was than modern cars are lighter and lighter nowadays due to fuel efficiency. New Range Rover for instance  (as well as new RR Sport) is around 400kgs lighter then the car of former generation but trailers we use to tow are still weight the same. It might be then a surprise to some new e.g. Range Rover owners that the trailer they easily tow with their previous Range can be more nervous on the road then it used to be... we all need to be very careful in this subject I think.


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## ROG (16 May 2014)

frezek1 said:



			....extra load onto towing car (e.g. sand bags) are welcome then ;-)    My point was than modern cars are lighter and lighter nowadays due to fuel efficiency. New Range Rover for instance  (as well as new RR Sport) is around 400kgs lighter then the car of former generation but trailers we use to tow are still weight the same. It might be then a surprise to some new e.g. Range Rover owners that the trailer they easily tow with their previous Range can be &#8220;more nervous&#8221; on the road then it used to be... we all need to be very careful in this subject I think.
		
Click to expand...

Component and vehicle designs now are better than before in general so therefore safer


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## mamaleopard1214 (19 May 2014)

1. B
2. 1562kg
3. 1990kg
4. 1800kg
5. 2000kg
6. 720kg 

Note: I do not currently have a trailer. But would like to know what I can tow. I want to take my shetland who weighs 235kg. 

Thanks
Emma x


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## ROG (19 May 2014)

mamaleopard1214 said:



			1. B
2. 1562kg
3. 1990kg
4. 1800kg
5. 2000kg
6. 720kg 

Note: I do not currently have a trailer. But would like to know what I can tow. I want to take my shetland who weighs 235kg. 

Thanks
Emma x
		
Click to expand...

Gonna take number 3 as a round 2000 to make it easy

Vehicle GVW 2000 with trailer MAM 2000 = 4000 so 500 over B licence towing limit

SOLUTION - contact trailer manufacturer to down plate trailer to 1500 .... 2000+1500=3500=ok
That will leave 680 kgs payload for the trailer ... 1500-720=680


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## Tayto (21 May 2014)

Hello, 

Is there a law that states your car must make a noise to confirm that your indicators are working correctly? I have heard mixed things i.e. they should only make a warning sound if they don't work. 

Can you confirm?


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## ROG (21 May 2014)

Tayto said:



			Hello, 

Is there a law that states your car must make a noise to confirm that your indicators are working correctly? I have heard mixed things i.e. they should only make a warning sound if they don't work. 

Can you confirm?
		
Click to expand...

You need someone who can search law - the RTA - and I am not too good at that


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## Ginge Crosby (23 May 2014)

Hi ROG
I'm having a headache trying to work out whether i'm legal towing my outfit on a B licence. You've given me some pointers a while ago but things have changed!
Vehicle is Honda CRV petrol, with curb weight of 1500kg. Max towing weight 1500kg, both according to manual, curb weight checked today on weighbridge. 
Trailer is an older rice Europa. Now, this is where things get a little odd (in my mind anyway!) trailer has a sticker on it saying UW 747kg. Weight plate says 'capacity max from 1400kg to 2700kg'. We took the outfit to local weighbridge, weighed car separately, then weighed car + trailer + horse + normal kit i'd take to a show. Total comes in at just under 3000kg. So using a bit of maths, trailer + horse is 1400kg. Horse, on weightape, is 503kg (not accurate I know but can't be toooo far out). So unladen weight can't be 747kg, more likely 900ish kg? Only way to tell would be to weigh it on its own I suppose. But I have a feeling the UW sticker has been added at some point to make inexperienced trailer-buyers like myself believe the trailer is lighter than it is. (This whole episode has been an experience in how NOT to buy a trailer - long story).

Trying to find any official info on the Gov.uk website is proving confusing, as some pages mention one thing, other pages mention others, and all seem to be 'up to date' as they have 'last updated' dates of within the last 2 months. 
I was using this webpage:
https://www.gov.uk/towing-rules/y/car-or-light-vehicle/no/licence-issued-before-19-Jan-2013 With this page I'm confused as to the point 'you can also tow larger trailers if - the fully loaded trailer weight isn't more than the unladen vehicle weight'. Does this mean the trailer MAM? Or am I being a little too hopeful interpreting it as what my 'fully loaded' trailer is - one 500kg horse  

I've also just found this page:
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car According to which, i'd be fine towing my outfit as it weighs in at less than 3500kg. 

I will only ever be towing the above horse, and no more kit than I took with me today. Even if I was, I've got 500kg of leeway, yes?

So I suppose, my rather long winded questions are:
1) Am I towing legally on a B licence
2) What is the MAM of my trailer (as I can't work it out )
3) If I'm not legal and I do take my trailer test, would I need to upgrade car/trailer or is my combination do-able legally and within the car/trailer capabilities?
4) Where can I find the official legislation? (So I can print off a copy to keep in the car to remind myself!)

Apologies for the long and rambly post, and any help will be much gratefully received!!


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## ROG (23 May 2014)

Ginge Crosby said:



			Hi ROG
I'm having a headache trying to work out whether i'm legal towing my outfit on a B licence.
		
Click to expand...

You need the GVW of your Honda which is the top of the four weights on the plate hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame

Your rice trailer is probably 2700 MAM and cannot be down plated because the manufacturer is no longer in business

Licences work on plated weights and NOT actual weights

Add honda GVW to trailer MAM and if it totals more than 3500 then it comes under B+E licence rules


Get rid of that trailer and get something like a HB401/403 where you can get it down plated to fit in with the B licence rule

That will mean you can then tow with one horse of up to about 650 kgs


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## Ginge Crosby (23 May 2014)

Looks like GWV of the Honda is 1930kg, so over the 3500kg. Looks like i'll forget about trying to tow on B licence. So does taking the trailer test mean I can tow my trailer with this car? I'm now concerned about the trailer MAM being more than the unladen weight of the tow vehicle, if that's relevant.


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## ROG (23 May 2014)

Ginge Crosby said:



			Looks like GWV of the Honda is 1930kg, so over the 3500kg. Looks like i'll forget about trying to tow on B licence. So does taking the trailer test mean I can tow my trailer with this car? I'm now concerned about the trailer MAM being more than the unladen weight of the tow vehicle, if that's relevant.
		
Click to expand...

Not relevant - there is no law or rule which states the MAM of a trailer cannot be more than the vehicle towing capacity

If you have a towing capacity of 1500 and a trailer with a MAM of 3000 which weighs 750 empty then it can be loaded with 750

This may help in the meantime......

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


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## KarlyHT (27 May 2014)

Hi ROG, am currently looking at new cars and have a few options to consider. One of them is this one: 

1. B licence 
2. Unladen 1541 
3. Gvw 2080 
4. Braked towing 2000 
5. MAM 1600kg 
6. Unladen trailer 770kg 
7. Horse weighs 540kg 

The car is heavier than my current one so I fear may take me over the limits. 

Thanks in advance!


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## ROG (27 May 2014)

KarlyHT said:



			Hi ROG, am currently looking at new cars and have a few options to consider. One of them is this one: 

1. B licence 
2. Unladen 1541 
3. Gvw 2080 
4. Braked towing 2000 
5. MAM 1600kg 
6. Unladen trailer 770kg 
7. Horse weighs 540kg 

The car is heavier than my current one so I fear may take me over the limits. 

Thanks in advance!
		
Click to expand...

2080+1600=3680 which is 180 over the 3500 limit

Easy solution as I think its an IFOR trailer .... contact IW and get them to reduce the MAM from 1600 to 1400 ... that will still give you a trailer payload of 630 (horse only 540)


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## KarlyHT (27 May 2014)

Thanks so much!! That's brilliant.


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## mischamoo (28 May 2014)

ROG - is there any restriction to what "trailer" you use for taking the B+E test? Most companies use the small closed box body trailers, however are you allowed to use a normal 2 horse trailer filled with the required weight?


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## ROG (28 May 2014)

mischamoo said:



			ROG - is there any restriction to what "trailer" you use for taking the B+E test? Most companies use the small closed box body trailers, however are you allowed to use a normal 2 horse trailer filled with the required weight?
		
Click to expand...

It must be a box type trailer that is virtually as high and as wide as the towing vehicle

It must be loaded with 600 kgs of weight listed sand bags or a full 1000 litre water IBC

It must be at least 1 tonne plated MAM but with the new loaded rules its unlikely to be less than that


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## ArcticFox (30 May 2014)

Hi Rog


Quick question.


I have a 7.5t horsebox, I'm thinking about putting a towbar on it to pull a trailer behind.  

what weight could I tow behind the lorry? does it make a difference if the lorry isn't full?  

also - not sure if you know, but any idea on the cost of a tow bar fitting?  I was thinking the other day that a problem lots of lorries (including mine) have is that if you were parked into a fence line at an event then got stuck, there is no way of towing the lorry backwards as the skirting on the back would be damaged?  I was thinking perhaps a towbar might help in that situation too?


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## ArcticFox (30 May 2014)

I should add that I passed my driving test pre 1997, however I do hold my HGV (rigid) which I passed a few years ago.  I don't think that will make any difference to what I tow behind the 7.5 tonne, however just thought I'd add.


oh, and I'm non commercial, does that make any difference?


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## ROG (30 May 2014)

ArcticFox said:



			Hi Rog


Quick question.


I have a 7.5t horsebox, I'm thinking about putting a towbar on it to pull a trailer behind.  

what weight could I tow behind the lorry? does it make a difference if the lorry isn't full?  

also - not sure if you know, but any idea on the cost of a tow bar fitting?  I was thinking the other day that a problem lots of lorries (including mine) have is that if you were parked into a fence line at an event then got stuck, there is no way of towing the lorry backwards as the skirting on the back would be damaged?  I was thinking perhaps a towbar might help in that situation too?
		
Click to expand...




ArcticFox said:



			I should add that I passed my driving test pre 1997, however I do hold my HGV (rigid) which I passed a few years ago.  I don't think that will make any difference to what I tow behind the 7.5 tonne, however just thought I'd add.


oh, and I'm non commercial, does that make any difference?
		
Click to expand...

Commercial or private makes no difference to the licencing laws

Pre 97 licence means you have a LGV C1+E with a 107 code

That 107 code limits a C1 vehicle towing a trailer to a maximum total plated MAM/GVW of 8250 kgs
That can be a 7500 GVW with a 750 kgs MAM trailer
OR - example
a 6500 GVW lorry/van with a 1750 kgs plated MAM trailer
OR - example
a 6000 GVW lorry/van with a 2250 kgs plated MAM trailer
Each of those totals a max of 8250 MAM

If you have a 7500 gvw lorry and only need it to be say 6500 then get it down plated via VOSA and DVLA then you can tow a larger MAM trailer

You need a LGV+E by passing a DSA test to increase your towing options and as you have a full C and C1 you could go for the DSA C1+E or C+E test


A towbar can often be used to tow the lorry out - seen that a few times !


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## ArcticFox (30 May 2014)

brill thanks 

apart from reversing issues, does it matter what size trailer as long as its underweight?  just thinking about towing a small caravan but I wouldn't be able to see it (although I have a reversing camera that I can check it with!)


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## ROG (30 May 2014)

ArcticFox said:



			brill thanks 

apart from reversing issues, does it matter what size trailer as long as its underweight?  just thinking about towing a small caravan but I wouldn't be able to see it (although I have a reversing camera that I can check it with!)
		
Click to expand...

Physical size does not matter - its the plated weight that does

Towing a caravan with a MTPLM of 750 kgs behind a lorry with a GVW of 7.5 tonnes is legal on a C1 or a C1+E with 107 code


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## KarlyHT (2 June 2014)

Hi ROG, not sure if you are aware but ifor Williams now charge £40 plus VAT to down plate a trailer!


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## ROG (2 June 2014)

KarlyHT said:



			Hi ROG, not sure if you are aware but ifor Williams now charge £40 plus VAT to down plate a trailer!
		
Click to expand...

was not aware but am now thanks

Just under £50 not bad though


----------



## Goldenstar (4 June 2014)

ROG help !
What does VCA approved mean .
And can I ( pre 1997 ) tow up to three tons behind a 4.5 ton little lorry .


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## ROG (5 June 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			ROG help !
What does VCA approved mean .
And can I ( pre 1997 ) tow up to three tons behind a 4.5 ton little lorry .
		
Click to expand...

VCA = http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/other/civil-traffic-enforcement.asp

If you have a pre 1997 C1+E 107 code on licence then you can use a 4.5 tonne GVW vehicle towing a 3.0 tonnes plated MAM trailer providing the GTW allows for this


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## Goldenstar (5 June 2014)

ROG said:



			VCA = http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/other/civil-traffic-enforcement.asp

If you have a pre 1997 C1+E 107 code on licence then you can use a 4.5 tonne GVW vehicle towing a 3.0 tonnes plated MAM trailer providing the GTW allows for this
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for your ROG ,
So basically VCA means  the company have had some of their vehicles subjected to safety testing by a third party .
I am selling my 7.5 toner and replacing with something else .
We are swinging from an 11 ton new build lehel at one extreme to a 4.5 ton and a caravan  or perhaps a new IW eventa at the other my head is swimming .
I am thinking about a new build 7 ton iveco which give a great payload any thoughts on those ?


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## liamC (6 June 2014)

1 - BE
2 - 1500
3 - 2100
4 - 3700
5 - 2700
6 - 500

I am using a VW passat estate, I know that if I load my trailer to the max it will be exceed my car's towing capacity but my question is, if I keep the ACTUAL weight within the car's towing capacity is that legal even though the plated weight would take me over the towing capacity. I know I could downrate the trailer by changing the plate but I want to avoid this if possible.


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## ROG (6 June 2014)

liamC said:



			1 - BE
2 - 1500
3 - 2100
4 - 3700
5 - 2700
6 - 500

I am using a VW passat estate, I know that if I load my trailer to the max it will be exceed my car's towing capacity but my question is, if I keep the ACTUAL weight within the car's towing capacity is that legal even though the plated weight would take me over the towing capacity. I know I could downrate the trailer by changing the plate but I want to avoid this if possible.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry a bit late to reply but had to install google chrome to reply

Load trailer to car actual towing capacity and you are legal - the fact that the trailer MAM is higher makes no difference


----------



## xStephx (7 June 2014)

Hi 

I have a B license and was wondering if the following combination would be legal.

Nissan xtrail / Ford mondeo or similar with a bateson deauville unladen weight 860kg I think down plated but might put an Ali floor in to make it lighter.

Thanks


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## ROG (7 June 2014)

xStephx said:



			Hi 

I have a B license and was wondering if the following combination would be legal.

Nissan xtrail / Ford mondeo or similar with a bateson deauville unladen weight 860kg I think down plated but might put an Ali floor in to make it lighter.

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

The MAM of that trailer is 2300 kgs

assuming GVW of a xtrail is 2100 kgs

They total 4400 kgs so 900 over the 3500 b licence towing limit

Solution is easy - contact Bateson and get trailer down plated to 1400 so that 2100+1400=3500

As its 860 empty then 540 can be loaded into the trailer

The higher the vehicle GVW then the lower the trailer MAM has to be so the two added together do not total more than 3500


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## xStephx (7 June 2014)

ROG said:



			The MAM of that trailer is 2300 kgs

assuming GVW of a xtrail is 2100 kgs

They total 4400 kgs so 900 over the 3500 b licence towing limit

Solution is easy - contact Bateson and get trailer down plated to 1400 so that 2100+1400=3500

As its 860 empty then 540 can be loaded into the trailer

The higher the vehicle GVW then the lower the trailer MAM has to be so the two added together do not total more than 3500
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that rog. I would be overweight then with a 560 - 580kg horse. Do you know of a lighter vehicle that might make it possible? Just I have seen the trailer and wouldn't mind buying it but don't want to if I'm not going to be legal.

Thanks


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## ROG (7 June 2014)

xStephx said:



			Thanks for that rog. I would be overweight then with a 560 - 580kg horse. Do you know of a lighter vehicle that might make it possible? Just I have seen the trailer and wouldn't mind buying it but don't want to if I'm not going to be legal.

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

The Bateson Derby trailer is 675 empty so down plated from 1700 to 1350 would leave 675 for the load/horse


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## xStephx (7 June 2014)

ROG said:



			The Bateson Derby trailer is 675 empty so down plated from 1700 to 1350 would leave 675 for the load/horse
		
Click to expand...

Thanks rog. Ideally I would like a derby but with a limited budget and not many being around at the moment I might have to see what else there is.

What if the xtrail weighed 2000kg towing weight 1500kg and kerb weight 1515kg and trailer was down plated to 1500kg less 860kg unladen weight that leaves 640kg to load. Would this be right?
Thanks


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## ROG (7 June 2014)

xStephx said:



			Thanks rog. Ideally I would like a derby but with a limited budget and not many being around at the moment I might have to see what else there is.

What if the xtrail weighed 2000kg towing weight 1500kg and kerb weight 1515kg and trailer was down plated to 1500kg less 860kg unladen weight that leaves 640kg to load. Would this be right?
Thanks
		
Click to expand...

YES but I think the xtrail GVW is nearer to 2100


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## ROG (7 June 2014)

This thread is currently looking for similar = http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...ose-with-a-Ifor-HB401&p=12493483#post12493483


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## Ranyhyn (8 June 2014)

ROG, what trailer can I tow with my freelander (2080) please? Preferably not a single trailer.  With one 500kg cob


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## KarlyHT (8 June 2014)

Hi again ROG, really interesting article in your horse magazine regarding towing and it states that on a B licence you can only tow a trailer less than 750kg. Am I correct in thinking that this rule changed?


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## KarlyHT (8 June 2014)

http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums...9-03D5-4B80-8E0C-A93A81EF2AA8_zpsc7dozncb.jpg


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## ROG (8 June 2014)

KarlyHT said:



			Hi again ROG, really interesting article in your horse magazine regarding towing and it states that on a B licence you can only tow a trailer less than 750kg. Am I correct in thinking that this rule changed?
		
Click to expand...

H&H is rubbish if it does say that - the law remains as it is and has been since 1997 - the 3500 law


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## ROG (8 June 2014)

Ranyhyn said:



			ROG, what trailer can I tow with my freelander (2080) please? Preferably not a single trailer.  With one 500kg cob
		
Click to expand...

I assume 2080 is the GVW of the freelander so I will continue with that assumption ...

Any trailer would need to be say 1400 to make it simple so would need to be down plated via contact with the manufacturer

Bateson Derby is 675 empty so leaving 725 for the trailer load

Looking for something else then the minimum empty weight would need to be 850 so as to leave 550 for the load just in case the horse gets a little heavier or a few bits are put in the trailer with the horse


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## ROG (8 June 2014)

KarlyHT said:










Email sent to H&H magazine editor in regards to what they wrote
		
Click to expand...


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## KarlyHT (8 June 2014)

Thanks ROG. It was in the July edition of your horse.


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## ROG (8 June 2014)

KarlyHT said:



			Thanks ROG. It was in the July edition of your horse.
		
Click to expand...

Ta - cancelled email to H&H and sent them one !


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## gembear (8 June 2014)

Hey ROG

Currently have a B licence, but would like to go out with the boy more often. Currently relying on others for transport, which isn't ideal and I don't like asking too much.

There could be an opportunity for me to borrow a trooper and iwilliams 510 trailer every so often. I've been doing some reading, but wanted to clarify the rules.

I can drive on provisional, so long as I have someone with either a pre 1997 license with me or who has done the BE test 3 years+ yes?
Do i have to drive with L plates and does the insurance need to be changed... ie. the troopers insurance OR will I be covered as i'm fully comp on my car?

Hope that makes sense, thanks!


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## ROG (9 June 2014)

gembear said:



			Hey ROG

Currently have a B licence, but would like to go out with the boy more often. Currently relying on others for transport, which isn't ideal and I don't like asking too much.

There could be an opportunity for me to borrow a trooper and iwilliams 510 trailer every so often. I've been doing some reading, but wanted to clarify the rules.

I can drive on provisional, so long as I have someone with either a pre 1997 license with me or who has done the BE test 3 years+ yes?
Do i have to drive with L plates and does the insurance need to be changed... ie. the troopers insurance OR will I be covered as i'm fully comp on my car?

Hope that makes sense, thanks!
		
Click to expand...

You have it spot on 

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer

Correct insurance for a B+E learner - contact YOUR insurer to confirm you are covered and if not then you will need the insurer of the trooper to add you onto their insurance as a named learner B+E driver


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## gembear (9 June 2014)

Thanks ROG, good to know it's not impossible to get out.
Will give me some practice before I take my actual test (at some point......).


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## tobiano1984 (9 June 2014)

Hi ROG,

I have a B licence, and an Audi A4 estate (2004, 1.9 TDI). What weight can I legally tow? I'd like to get out with one horse/pony (one is 500kg, one is 300kg) just to local venues. I don't have a trailer yet but can borrow an IW 505 or hire a trailer.  
If I can't tow with a horse, is it legal to tow empty to practice for my B&E Test? Once I have B&E I will buy a 4x4.
Thanks!


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## ROG (9 June 2014)

tobiano1984 said:



			Hi ROG,

I have a B licence, and an Audi A4 estate (2004, 1.9 TDI). What weight can I legally tow? I'd like to get out with one horse/pony (one is 500kg, one is 300kg) just to local venues. I don't have a trailer yet but can borrow an IW 505 or hire a trailer.  
If I can't tow with a horse, is it legal to tow empty to practice for my B&E Test? Once I have B&E I will buy a 4x4.
Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

Think I just posted on your other thread ?

There is one extra rule on top of all the other towing rules for the towing of a trailer over 750 kgs on a B only licence and that one extra rule is ...

... the GVW of the vehicle added to the trailer plated MAM must not total more than 3500 kgs

That is plated weights not actual weights because licences work on plated weights

You can use a B towing set up for the B+E test - seems silly but its legal to do

You can tow a B towing set up loaded on the motorway right now

You can tow a loaded B+E set up on the motorway if under the B+E provisional rules


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 June 2014)

Hey, I was wondering if it was possible for  you to figure out if this would work:

Mitsubishi Shogun Pinin - Kerb 1390, towing capacilty 1500

Ifor Williams 505

I would only take out a Shetland at 150kg or a tb at 500kg. 

I have a B licence and passed my test in June 2013 - I think I read somewhere that if you passed after Jan 2013 you couldn't tow at all without a licence? 

Any thoughts? Many thanks


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## ROG (12 June 2014)

EKW said:



			Hey, I was wondering if it was possible for  you to figure out if this would work:

Mitsubishi Shogun Pinin - Kerb 1390, towing capacilty 1500

Ifor Williams 505

I would only take out a Shetland at 150kg or a tb at 500kg. 

I have a B licence and passed my test in June 2013 - I think I read somewhere that if you passed after Jan 2013 you couldn't tow at all without a licence? 

Any thoughts? Many thanks 

Click to expand...

Yes you can tow on a B licence no matter when it was passed as the rules are the same for all

GVW of that model is 1890
Towing capacity 1500
Horse 500

You can use a HB401 or HB 403 for example without having it down plated because the plated MAM is 1600
1600+1890=3490 which is not above the 3500 limit

As you only have a 1500 towing capacity then the trailer can only be loaded to an actual weight of 1500 not 1600
That trailer weighs 800 max when empty so with a 500 horse that still only totals 1300 so well under your 1500 max

If you get a trailer with a plated MAM over 1600 then it would need down plating to 1600 via contact with the trailer manufacturer


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## sillygillyhorse (16 June 2014)

Help please ROG.  Not towed for a very long time and contemplating doing so again but want to make sure it will be legal.

I passed before 97 so have B+E
Kerb weight appears to be 1505kg
Next figure I am not sure
Max towing capacity of car 1800kg
Trailer I am looking at is 750kg un laden
MAM of 2000kg.

Due to small car size only ever to take one 600kg horse, just fed up with using big lorry for short local runs with one horse!

Would that be legal or do I need to look for a cheval liberte single trailer with a lower MAM or have one downrated?  Thanks


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## ROG (16 June 2014)

sillygillyhorse said:



			Help please ROG.  Not towed for a very long time and contemplating doing so again but want to make sure it will be legal.

I passed before 97 so have B+E
Kerb weight appears to be 1505kg
Next figure I am not sure
Max towing capacity of car 1800kg
Trailer I am looking at is 750kg un laden
MAM of 2000kg.

Due to small car size only ever to take one 600kg horse, just fed up with using big lorry for short local runs with one horse!

Would that be legal or do I need to look for a cheval liberte single trailer with a lower MAM or have one downrated?  Thanks
		
Click to expand...

As you have a B+E then you have supplied the figures I need
Towing capacity 1800
Trailer MAM 2000
As the 1800 is the lower figure then that is the upper limit for the trailer when loaded

With a trailer weighing 750 and a horse weighing 600 then that is 1350 so well within the 1800 limit


EASILY LEGAL

PS - as you car is going to actually weigh 1500+ when towing then its always going to be heavier than the trailer and although that is not a legal requirement it can be a safety one

If normal car then be careful what surfaces you tow on - wet grass with a non 4x4 can get tricky !


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## sillygillyhorse (16 June 2014)

EASILY LEGAL

PS - as you car is going to actually weigh 1500+ when towing then its always going to be heavier than the trailer and although that is not a legal requirement it can be a safety one

If normal car then be careful what surfaces you tow on - wet grass with a non 4x4 can get tricky ![/QUOTE]


Thanks ROG.  Was getting confused with it all as it has all changed - for the good I think!

It is a bmw 3 series tourer so aware it isn't the most ideal tow vehicle.  Will be used for vet trips and odd outing to equestrian centres with hard standing areas.  I see it as a cheaper alternative to running my Hgv with one horse on.  

My other option is to downgrade to a 4.5t that will legally carry 2 and can tow 2000kg.  That way I can take 2 horses and if need be tow a caravan.  Leaning towards that scenario as have practicality of small lorry with option of towing trailer or caravan.  I know you can upgrade a 3.5t to 3.9t but that still not enough payload.  Can you take a 3.5t up to 4.5t or do I have to buy a 4.5t chassis?  Getting mixed information on this.

Many thanks for your help, much appreciated.


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## ROG (16 June 2014)

To up rate from 3.5 to 4.5 is likely to need a lot of work on the vehicle so its probably cheaper to get a ready made one

Down rating a LGV C1 vehicle (a vehicle from 3.5 to 7.5) is pointless - I cannot see what you gain by that unless you wish to tow a trailer over 750 kgs with a pre 1997 LGV C1+E 107 code licence


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## sillygillyhorse (16 June 2014)

Thought that might be case with chassis.  Not looking to downgrade a 7.5t but to sell the 18t Hgv and start again as it were with the 4.5t.  I have C1+E which if have 4.5t 2horse little lorry gives me practicality and reduced cost but still option of towing extra horses if needed or a caravan if I want to go back to doing stay away shows.  Thoughts on that set up welcome


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## ROG (16 June 2014)

sillygillyhorse said:



			Thought that might be case with chassis.  Not looking to downgrade a 7.5t but to sell the 18t Hgv and start again as it were with the 4.5t.  I have C1+E which if have 4.5t 2horse little lorry gives me practicality and reduced cost but still option of towing extra horses if needed or a caravan if I want to go back to doing stay away shows.  Thoughts on that set up welcome 

Click to expand...

I deffo agree about getting rid of the LGV C because that is under full EU TACHO regs whereas a C1 is exempt where private LGV driving is concerned

If you get a 4.5 tonne GVW horsebox van which has a good GTW then you could tow a 3.0 tonne MAM trailer/caravan behind it on your pre 1997 LGV C1+E 107 code category on your licence
I say 4.5 + 3.0 because that keeps you out of tacho regs


If you let the D4 medical lapse for your LGV C then do not worry because to get it back all you need to do is to pass a D4 medical at any time in the future - no tests etc - just the medical


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## Goldenstar (16 June 2014)

ROG , 
Still trying to sort future transport .
Looking at a two horse lorry on the seven ton van chassis .
Could we tow a small car behind it and what weight could this be ?
We would not be wanting to have horses on board when we where looking to tow a car.


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## ROG (16 June 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			ROG , 
Still trying to sort future transport .
Looking at a two horse lorry on the seven ton van chassis .
Could we tow a small car behind it and what weight could this be ?
We would not be wanting to have horses on board when we where looking to tow a car.
		
Click to expand...

I am going to ASSUME for this answer that you have a pre 1997 car licence only with all the free categories that came with it

If you have a lorry which has a GVW of 7500 then you can only tow 750 plated MAM/GVW behind it = C1+E 107 code
OR
If you have a lorry which has a GVW of 7000 then you can only tow 1250 plated MAM/GVW behind it = C1+E 107 code

Having the vehicle loaded or not makes no difference to the answers given because the plated weights will not have changed


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## Goldenstar (16 June 2014)

ROG said:



			I am going to ASSUME for this answer that you have a pre 1997 car licence only with all the free categories that came with it

If you have a lorry which has a GVW of 7500 then you can only tow 750 plated MAM/GVW behind it = C1+E 107 code
OR
If you have a lorry which has a GVW of 7000 then you can only tow 1250 plated MAM/GVW behind it = C1+E 107 code

Having the vehicle loaded or not makes no difference to the answers given because the plated weighs will not have changed
		
Click to expand...

Sorry yes have a pre 1997 licence and am looking at the 7 ton as it gives a much much better payload than a 7.5 ton truck.
We are thinking of biting the bullet and building on a new seven van chassis and using it as a motor home in non horse situations as my OH is about to retire and we hope to have lots of fun time to travel .
Hence wanting to tow a small car it's all sounds quite doable .
Thanks ROG .


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## Goldenstar (16 June 2014)

ROG stupid question is it 1250 kilos ?
Thanks again


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## ROG (16 June 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Sorry yes have a pre 1997 licence and am looking at the 7 ton as it gives a much much better payload than a 7.5 ton truck.
We are thinking of biting the bullet and building on a new seven van chassis and using it as a motor home in non horse situations as my OH is about to retire and we hope to have lots of fun time to travel .
Hence wanting to tow a small car it's all sounds quite doable .
Thanks ROG .
		
Click to expand...

Check this out = http://www.armitagetrailers.com/Cartransportertrailers.htm - plating that trailer to 1250 would work with a 7000 GVW vehicle and a C1+E 107

A Nissan Micra weighs just under 1000 empty and that trailer weighs 225 empty

If you wanted that trailer at 1300 then simply replate the lorry to 6950 - that would drop the lorry payload by 50


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## Goldenstar (16 June 2014)

Or fit the van with one of those fixed arm thingys that tow the car along the road .
Thanks ROG this looking very possible so we end up with a vehicle that much more multipurpose than just for horses and we are looking to buy a small runabout car anyway .


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## ROG (16 June 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Or fit the van with one of those fixed arm thingys that tow the car along the road ..
		
Click to expand...

If any part of the car being towed touches the road and the GVW is over 750 kg (most cars I know of) then the weight towed for licencing and tacho purposes will be the GVW of the car and it must have a braking system which is triggered by the towing vehicle

You sure you want to go down that route?


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## Goldenstar (16 June 2014)

ROG said:



			If any part of the car being towed touches the road and the GVW is over 750 kg (most cars I know of) then the weight towed for licencing and tacho purposes will be the GVW of the car and it must have a braking system which is triggered by the towing vehicle

You sure you want to go down that route?
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps not how are they doing it all these motorhomes you see towing cars all the time .


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## ROG (16 June 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Perhaps not how are they doing it all these motorhomes you see towing cars all the time .
		
Click to expand...

There is a way to connect the two braking systems together but I believe its tricky and a little expensive


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## Goldenstar (16 June 2014)

```

```



ROG said:



			There is a way to connect the two braking systems together but I believe its tricky and a little expensive
		
Click to expand...

Thanks more research needed .


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## Tiddlypom (16 June 2014)

Goldenstar said:




```

```
Thanks more research needed .
		
Click to expand...

The current (July) issue of MMM ('The Motorhomer's Magazine') has a two page article on 'Towing with a motorhome' . I bought my copy in Sainsburys.


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## ApolloStorm (17 June 2014)

I'm really looking for which towing vehicle would be suitable here:

1. B+E ( pre 97)
2.1955 ( OH insists his Merc e class will do it I'm not too sure )
3.2550
4. 2100
5. 2600 ( I think, trailer is new ifor 506)
6. 920 

Looking at the numbers now I really don't think it'll be legal but might as well check . If not anyone got any suggestions for a non 4 x 4 that will tow it  legally 
thanks


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## ROG (17 June 2014)

ApolloStorm said:



			I'm really looking for which towing vehicle would be suitable here:

1. B+E ( pre 97)
2.1955 ( OH insists his Merc e class will do it I'm not too sure )
3.2550
4. 2100
5. 2600 ( I think, trailer is new ifor 506)
6. 920 

Looking at the numbers now I really don't think it'll be legal but might as well check . If not anyone got any suggestions for a non 4 x 4 that will tow it  legally 
thanks
		
Click to expand...

Easy this one ...
2100-920=1180 payload for trailer

towing capacities are all tested the same so with a 2100 capacity it will tow an actual weight of 2100

Where you might come unstuck is on soft or wet surfaces as its not a 4x4


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## ApolloStorm (17 June 2014)

Awesome so do you reckon I'd be ok to tow the trailer plus two 16hh or would that be pushing it ??


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## ROG (17 June 2014)

ApolloStorm said:



			Awesome so do you reckon I'd be ok to tow the trailer plus two 16hh or would that be pushing it ??
		
Click to expand...

If they weigh 500 each then it will be ok legally with 180 spare


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## acw295 (19 June 2014)

ROG, we are changing my 3.5t horsebox for a lightweight trailer and want to have an estate or smaller 4x4 for towing due to the fact we only go out occasionally. I only have a 14.2hh coblet (who weighs approx 480kg). Would this combo work? Husband says yes but I find myself very confused by it all still!

The trailer will be a new(ish) Bateson Ascot or Deuville, I have given figures for the heavier of the 2 models but there is not much in it.
Potential cars are a Merc E220 estate or an Audi A4 Allroad or Freelander 2 (or something similar), I have given the spec of the Merc for now.

1- My husband has a pre 1997 B+E license (and he will be the one driving as I have no desire to tow!)
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle = 1845kg
3 - Gross Vehicle Weight of the towing vehicle = 2440kg
4 - towing capacity of the towing vehicle = 2100kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer = 2300kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer = 925kg


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## ROG (19 June 2014)

acw295 said:



			ROG, we are changing my 3.5t horsebox for a lightweight trailer and want to have an estate or smaller 4x4 for towing due to the fact we only go out occasionally. I only have a 14.2hh coblet (who weighs approx 480kg). Would this combo work? Husband says yes but I find myself very confused by it all still!

The trailer will be a new(ish) Bateson Ascot or Deuville, I have given figures for the heavier of the 2 models but there is not much in it.
Potential cars are a Merc E220 estate or an Audi A4 Allroad or Freelander 2 (or something similar), I have given the spec of the Merc for now.

1- My husband has a pre 1997 B+E license (and he will be the one driving as I have no desire to tow!)
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle = 1845kg
3 - Gross Vehicle Weight of the towing vehicle = 2440kg
4 - towing capacity of the towing vehicle = 2100kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer = 2300kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer = 925kg
		
Click to expand...

Legal to load trailer with 1175 kgs (2100-925=1175) so a 480 load will be well within limits


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## raegank (19 June 2014)

Posting on behalf of a friend... please could anyone offer any advice?

_I am looking for some advice. 
I hold my B (car) license and have plenty of experience driving my horse in a trailer. I am wondering whether by Law I need to take my B+E Test.

I drive a Hyundai Santa Fe (late 2006 model) and my trailer is a Ifor Williams 510, My horse weighs 450Kg Max.

I have looked up the Law which states I can drive a vehicle and Trailer + Load providing the combined weight doesnt exceed 3500Kg and the Loaded Trailer alone doesnt exceed the towing weight of the vehicle.

Can you confirm that I am actually just inside the weight restrictions for towing on a category B License? And therefore Legal to drive in the UK?

Thanks_


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## ROG (19 June 2014)

raegank said:



			Posting on behalf of a friend... please could anyone offer any advice?

_I am looking for some advice. 
I hold my B (car) license and have plenty of experience driving my horse in a trailer. I am wondering whether by Law I need to take my B+E Test.

I drive a Hyundai Santa Fe (late 2006 model) and my trailer is a Ifor Williams 510, My horse weighs 450Kg Max.

I have looked up the Law which states I can drive a vehicle and Trailer + Load providing the combined weight doesn&#8217;t exceed 3500Kg and the Loaded Trailer alone doesn&#8217;t exceed the towing weight of the vehicle.

Can you confirm that I am actually just inside the weight restrictions for towing on a category B License? And therefore Legal to drive in the UK?

Thanks_

Click to expand...

B licence towing rules go on the total of the plated weights not actual weights

From the internet it seems the Santa Fe is about 2600 kg GVW
IW HB510 is 2584 MAM
that is a total of 5184 so way over the 3500 limit for B towing

With the vehicle having such a high GVW there is no way a trailer can be used for horse towing even if a  trailer was down plated by the manufacturer

You need a different vehicle and trailer


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## ROG (19 June 2014)

This may interest you ...


*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise VIDEO - Reversing Exercise - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
DSA REVERSING TEST AREA DIAGRAM DSA REVERSING TEST AREA DIAGRAM
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

The trailer must now be loaded with 600 kgs of sand bags or a 1000 kgs water IBC for the test so most companies are now training with that weight in the trailer
https://www.gov.uk/new-laden-testing-rules-for-driving-test-vehicles

Well explained here Well explained here

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos

This is interesting BUT NOT RECOMMENDED  a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test. So you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself. 
DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS 
Remember that the required 600 kgs of sand bags or 1 x 1000 IBC filled with water will be required in the trailer and the load must be secure.


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## raegank (19 June 2014)

ROG said:



			B licence towing rules go on the total of the plated weights not actual weights

From the internet it seems the Santa Fe is about 2600 kg GVW
IW HB510 is 2584 MAM
that is a total of 5184 so way over the 3500 limit for B towing

With the vehicle having such a high GVW there is no way a trailer can be used for horse towing even if a  trailer was down plated by the manufacturer

You need a different vehicle and trailer
		
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for your help. 

She's booked in for a test date in July but just wanted to double check she wasn't already able to tow before she goes through with the test.


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## ROG (19 June 2014)

raegank said:



			Thanks so much for your help. 

She's booked in for a test date in July but just wanted to double check she wasn't already able to tow before she goes through with the test.
		
Click to expand...

She can under supervision as the set up is currently a B+E


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## acw295 (19 June 2014)

ROG said:



			Legal to load trailer with 1175 kgs (2100-925=1175) so a 480 load will be well within limits
		
Click to expand...

Fabulous. Thank you!  So it is just the max towing capacity of whatever vehicle minus the unladen trailer weight that I need to worry about? That makes it much easier! I thought it was so much harder than that. The Audi allroad has a lower tow capacity of 1900kg and the Freelander 2000kg but that still gives me room for my pony  I think 2100kg is better though as potentially means I could take a friend with me now and again (similar sized pony - no big horses).


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## ROG (19 June 2014)

acw295 said:



			Fabulous. Thank you!  So it is just the max towing capacity of whatever vehicle minus the unladen trailer weight that I need to worry about? That makes it much easier! I thought it was so much harder than that. The Audi allroad has a lower tow capacity of 1900kg and the Freelander 2000kg but that still gives me room for my pony  I think 2100kg is better though as potentially means I could take a friend with me now and again (similar sized pony - no big horses).
		
Click to expand...

Not always the max towing capacity minus the trailer unladen weight because if the trailer MAM is lower then that would be the limit

Both these examples below have a trailer empty weight of 1000 kg

Example 1
Towing capacity 2000
Trailer MAM 2500
Payload for trailer 1000 (2000-1000=1000)

Example 2
Towing capacity 2000
Trailer MAM 1800
Payload for trailer 800 (1800-1000=800)


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## firejenson (29 June 2014)

I don't have my handbook for the car at hand and struggle to find info online but here goes..
1 - B (unfortunately -98)
2 - 1550kg
3 - No idea,sorry :-(
4 - I can find both 1600kg and 1800kg online (again need my handbook!)
5 - Richardson Supreme Rosette actual plate says 1400kg-2700kg?
6 - 820kg

Sorry to be so vague :-/


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## ROG (29 June 2014)

firejenson said:



			I don't have my handbook for the car at hand and struggle to find info online but here goes..
1 - B (unfortunately -98)
2 - 1550kg
3 - No idea,sorry :-(
4 - I can find both 1600kg and 1800kg online (again need my handbook!)
5 - Richardson Supreme Rosette actual plate says 1400kg-2700kg?
6 - 820kg

Sorry to be so vague :-/
		
Click to expand...

Trailer too high plated at 2700 kg and as manufacturer not in business then it cannot be down plated for B towing 


The good news is that most GVWs are about 500 above the kerb weight so 1550 + 500 = 2050 APPROX
The lower towing capacity of 1600 is ok


Today, look for the weight plate hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame of your vehicle and post the top 2 of the 4 figures please


Solution for B towing with 1 horse = get a different trailer perhaps something like a HB401 or HB403 (there are many other makes/models) and have it down plated via contact with manufacturer to 1400 (IW now charge £50 for this so I am informed)
The HBs mentioned are 800 max empty so plated at 1400 they can take a load/horse of 600


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## firejenson (29 June 2014)

Finally got to check the plate on the car,

The numbers are as follows (in the order they are on the plate!)

2100kg
3900kg
1- 1040
2-1120


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## ROG (30 June 2014)

firejenson said:



			Finally got to check the plate on the car,

The numbers are as follows (in the order they are on the plate!)

2100kg
3900kg
1- 1040
2-1120
		
Click to expand...

My guess was not that far out !

Your car has a GVW of 2100 and a towing capacity of 1800 (3900-2100=1800)
The maximum trailer plated MAM you can tow is 1400
At the moment you have a trailer with a plated MAM of 2700 so 1300 too high
As the manufacturer of that trailer is no more then you cannot get it down plated

Solution is to get a trailer where the empty/un-laden weight is about 800 and the manufacturer is still in business so it can be down plated to 1400 which then leaves a trailer payload of about 600


The bottom 2 of the 4 numbers are 1- front axle and 2- rear axle which together will always add up to more than the GVW to allow for some flexibility when loading the vehicle


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## firejenson (30 June 2014)

Thank you very much! So am I correct thinking this combination would be okay with B + E licence?

I only have ponies (max 400kg) 

Also still a bit confused as the actual trailers plate gives too numbers 1400kg-2700kg, is this normal? It's such a bargain that I might just have to bite the bullet and get my test done


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## firejenson (30 June 2014)

firejenson said:



			Thank you very much! So am I correct thinking this combination would be okay with B + E licence?

I only have ponies (max 400kg) 

Also still a bit confused as the actual trailers plate gives too numbers 1400kg-2700kg, is this normal? It's such a bargain that I might just have to bite the bullet and get my test done
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but truly confused, got sent a photo of the plate on the trailer and this plate says manufacture as Avonride, gave them a ring and found out they only did the base/axle to these trailers. So no idea what the actual plate is??


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## ROG (30 June 2014)

firejenson said:



			Thank you very much! So am I correct thinking this combination would be okay with B + E licence?

I only have ponies (max 400kg) 

Also still a bit confused as the actual trailers plate gives too numbers 1400kg-2700kg, is this normal? It's such a bargain that I might just have to bite the bullet and get my test done
		
Click to expand...




firejenson said:



			Sorry but truly confused, got sent a photo of the plate on the trailer and this plate says manufacture as Avonride, gave them a ring and found out they only did the base/axle to these trailers. So no idea what the actual plate is??
		
Click to expand...

The frame/brakes is designed to be between 1400 to 2700 but in most cases they are 2700

If there is no plate then the total of all the tyre load ratings will be the MAM with max limit of 3500

B+E ok and with a towing capacity of 1800 then trailer 820 plus two ponies at 400 is only 1620 so 180 spare


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## holeymoley (30 June 2014)

1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle- 1446kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle- 2050kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle- 1500kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres-tyres 1800kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 750kg

I'm not entirely sure of 5 but I think its 1800kg. This is going by the tyres as there's no plate. Would there be a way to reduce this by tyres? I've tried to get a plate before but it's proving rather difficult.


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## ROG (30 June 2014)

holeymoley said:



			1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle- 1446kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle- 2050kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle- 1500kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres-tyres 1800kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 750kg

I'm not entirely sure of 5 but I think its 1800kg. This is going by the tyres as there's no plate. Would there be a way to reduce this by tyres? I've tried to get a plate before but it's proving rather difficult.
		
Click to expand...

What trailer is it?

You can reduce the total of the tyre load ratings by changing tyres for a lower set but if you get 4 which add up to the max of 1450 then you are going to be very exact weight distribution wise when loaded so that not one of them is over its limit


You have the right vehicle weight wise for B towing but really need a different trailer


----------



## firejenson (30 June 2014)

Thanks again for your help and being so patient with me being a numpty!


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## holeymoley (30 June 2014)

ROG said:



			What trailer is it?

You can reduce the total of the tyre load ratings by changing tyres for a lower set but if you get 4 which add up to the max of 1450 then you are going to be very exact weight distribution wise when loaded so that not one of them is over its limit


You have the right vehicle weight wise for B towing but really need a different trailer
		
Click to expand...


Thanks . It's an old type - bahill sportsman. I had a look at tyres today and they say max load each is 475kg.


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## ROG (1 July 2014)

holeymoley said:



			Thanks . It's an old type - bahill sportsman. I had a look at tyres today and they say max load each is 475kg.
		
Click to expand...

That's a MAM of 1900 kg

Bahill went out of business many years ago so no chance of a down plate

Realistically you have two choices - get B+E or a different trailer

you are not a numpty - the laws surrounding trailer towing especially on a B licence are not made clear on the internet by the DVLA


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## supagran (5 July 2014)

Can you tell me if I am able to tow with the following outfit (I have a pre-1997 licence!):

IW 511 u/l weight 1000kg
Weight of horse 550kg

Car:
Citroen C5 2.0l HDI 138hp
The plate on the car shows the following:
2276 kg
3776 kg
1-1280 kg
2-1130 kg

Thanks!


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## ROG (5 July 2014)

supagran said:



			Can you tell me if I am able to tow with the following outfit (I have a pre-1997 licence!):

IW 511 u/l weight 1000kg
Weight of horse 550kg

Car:
Citroen C5 2.0l HDI 138hp
The plate on the car shows the following:
2276 kg
3776 kg
1-1280 kg
2-1130 kg

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

3776 - 2276 = 1500 which usually means the manufacturer has set a max towing capacity of 1500

Your trailer empty weight of 1000 plus your horse of 550 = 1550 so over that limit

You need a different vehicle with a greater towing capacity or a lighter trailer


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## supagran (5 July 2014)

ROG said:



			3776 - 2276 = 1500 which usually means the manufacturer has set a max towing capacity of 1500

Your trailer empty weight of 1000 plus your horse of 550 = 1550 so over that limit

You need a different vehicle with a greater towing capacity or a lighter trailer
		
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for quick response!


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## mischamoo (6 July 2014)

Hi ROG, I currently tow a 511 and my 650kg horse however am looking to upgrade to an equitrek trailer becaus of the living. My sorento tows 2800kg and I wondered as the equitreks have a 3000kg max weight, can I legally tow the trailer as my cars capacity doesn't tow the max weight limit? The equitreks weigh unladen 1360kg plus my horse 650kg plus fuel, me etc etc say 400kg tops, I'd be at about 2400kg so below my cars tow capacity.


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## ROG (6 July 2014)

mischamoo said:



			Hi ROG, I currently tow a 511 and my 650kg horse however am looking to upgrade to an equitrek trailer becaus of the living. My sorento tows 2800kg and I wondered as the equitreks have a 3000kg max weight, can I legally tow the trailer as my cars capacity doesn't tow the max weight limit? The equitreks weigh unladen 1360kg plus my horse 650kg plus fuel, me etc etc say 400kg tops, I'd be at about 2400kg so below my cars tow capacity.
		
Click to expand...

There is no law or rule which states that the manufacturers recommended towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to cope with the plated MAM of a trailer

There are plenty of internet myths about this though!


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## ROG (6 July 2014)

The max towing capacity listed for the vehicle and the GTW for the towing combination refer only to actual weights and have nothing to do with either vehicle GVW or trailer MAM plated weights

The vehicle GVW and trailer MAM plated weights refer to the max that each of them can be individually 

This example would be 100% legal on a B+E licence (GVW+MAM=5800 so over the B licence 3500 limit)

Vehicle
GVW 2300
GTW 5000
Towing capacity 2700

Trailer
MAM 3500

As long as the actual weight of the vehicle does not exceed 2300 or the actual weight of the trailer exceed 2700 then that example is 100% legal


If anyone reading wishes to refute this then please link to and/or quote the law which states otherwise ..... good luck on finding such!


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## Pipl (7 July 2014)

Hi ROG,

I have a 07 plate Freelander2 which I believe has a GVW of around 1800kg, and a IW505, my horse weighs around 500kg. I think you have already answered this previously, but as there is some confusing literature around am I correct in thinking that this combination would not be legal under B licence because the combined car GVW plus trailer MAM is >3500kg (I do not currently have B + E). I have been to a weigh bridge and it came in at 3200kg. I think I can only tow under provisional licence rules, but a friend tows with a similar combination (but a slightly lighter trailer with MAM 2000kg) and said they spoke to DVLA and it is fine without provisional rules!


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## ROG (7 July 2014)

Pipl said:



			Hi ROG,

I have a 07 plate Freelander2 which I believe has a GVW of around 1800kg, and a IW505, my horse weighs around 500kg. I think you have already answered this previously, but as there is some confusing literature around am I correct in thinking that this combination would not be legal under B licence because the combined car GVW plus trailer MAM is >3500kg (I do not currently have B + E). I have been to a weigh bridge and it came in at 3200kg. I think I can only tow under provisional licence rules, but a friend tows with a similar combination (but a slightly lighter trailer with MAM 2000kg) and said they spoke to DVLA and it is fine without provisional rules!
		
Click to expand...

I think you will find the 1800 is kerb/empty weight and the GVW is 2505 kg

With a GVW of 2505 the maximum plated MAM for a trailer on a B only licence is 995 kg so useless for the towing of any horse trailer

DVLA either did not have the correct info or they gave out the wrong info


----------



## tobiano1984 (7 July 2014)

Hi ROG - I've just got an A4 Audi Avant estate with a tow bar, and just trying to work out what I can pull with it. 

1. I have a B Licence
2. 1535kg unladen weight
3. 2010kg GVW
4. 1800kg max trailer weight braked

Can you recommend what if any trailer I can pull with a B licence? And also, if I take my B&E what trailer I could pull then?

Thanks!


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## ROG (7 July 2014)

tobiano1984 said:



			Hi ROG - I've just got an A4 Audi Avant estate with a tow bar, and just trying to work out what I can pull with it. 

1. I have a B Licence
2. 1535kg unladen weight
3. 2010kg GVW
4. 1800kg max trailer weight braked

Can you recommend what if any trailer I can pull with a B licence? And also, if I take my B&E what trailer I could pull then?

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

B licence = max trailer plated MAM of 1490 kg so something like a HB401/3 (just under 800 empty) down plated to say 1450 would leave 650+ for the load/horse

B+E licence = any trailer but when loaded the actual weight cannot exceed 1800 kg and then only if the trailer plated MAM is at least 1800 kg


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## Pipl (7 July 2014)

ROG said:



			I think you will find the 1800 is kerb/empty weight and the GVW is 2505 kg

With a GVW of 2505 the maximum plated MAM for a trailer on a B only licence is 995 kg so useless for the towing of any horse trailer

DVLA either did not have the correct info or they gave out the wrong info
		
Click to expand...

Thanks very much, that's settled an argument for me! However the DVLA do seem to have given out incorrect advice, which is concerning


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## mischamoo (7 July 2014)

Thank you for clarifyin ROG.

I have another Q as haven't been able to find the info anywhere but do you know how I find out the max nose weight of my car and the max hitch weight for my trailer? Do I need to contact the manufacturers?


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## ROG (8 July 2014)

mischamoo said:



			Thank you for clarifyin ROG.

I have another Q as haven't been able to find the info anywhere but do you know how I find out the max nose weight of my car and the max hitch weight for my trailer? Do I need to contact the manufacturers?
		
Click to expand...

You might be able to access that info by an internet search or by asking on a popular caravan forum - caravan dealers should know


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## ROG (8 July 2014)

jeniwren said:



			Dear Rog, please help!  Can a 32 year old legally tow a 400kg pony in an Ivor Williams 505, using a vauxhall Monterey 3.1?
Going mad here!
Thank you.
		
Click to expand...

32 now means he was born in 1982 so was age 17 in 1997 so could not have a pre 97 licence - if my math is ok
Assuming that driver only has a B licence ....

Vehicle GVW about 2500 with trailer MAM about 2300 = 4800 so well over the 3500 B licence limit


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## dollymix (9 July 2014)

I have an Audi A4 s-line estate, 07 plate. My mare is approx 525kg

I passed in 2001, would I be allowed to tow her?


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## ROG (9 July 2014)

dollymix said:



			I have an Audi A4 s-line estate, 07 plate. My mare is approx 525kg

I passed in 2001, would I be allowed to tow her?
		
Click to expand...

Need a bit more info ...
I need the top 2 figures on the weight plate which is usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame
or
The max permissible mass weight and the max permissible towing mass of the trailer weight from the V5 registered keepers document

I am fairly certain that you will be able to do so with the right trailer but cannot be certain until I get those numbers


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## dollymix (9 July 2014)

Thanks Rog - from the V5s it says :
"Technical permissible maximum towable mass of the trailer"
Braked 1500
unbraked 750

Max. permissible mass (exc. m/c) 2000


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## ROG (9 July 2014)

dollymix said:



			Thanks Rog - from the V5s it says :
"Technical permissible maximum towable mass of the trailer"
Braked 1500
unbraked 750

Max. permissible mass (exc. m/c) 2000
		
Click to expand...

Not sure what (exc. m/c) means but will assume it means GVW is 2000 = seems about right

GVW of 2000 means you can have a trailer with a maximum plated MAM of 1500 and as the towing capacity is also 1500 then just happens to coincide 

I bet the top 2 figures on the weight plate in your car are 2000 and 3500 ?? - take a look if you get the chance

2 examples of a trailer - there are more ..
HB401/3 which is about 800 empty and plated at 1600 - contact IW to down plate to 1500 which leaves 700 for the horse/load in the trailer
Bateson Derby is about 675 empty and plated at 1700 - contact Bateson to down plate to 1500 which leaves 825 for the horse/load in the trailer

All legal on a B licence


Towing with a non 4x4 is fine as long as you have no steep slippery hills or soft surfaces to tow on


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## km-j (12 July 2014)

1 - BE
2 - 1380
3 - 1940
4 - 1700
5 - 1600 or 2340
6 - 770 or 905 

Can you please tell me if this is okay Audi A3 thanks and weight can carry on both trailers


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## kinnygirl1 (12 July 2014)

Hi ROG 

My little sister is looking at towing. She has B licence. What does down plating mean and how is it done?  Does the manufacturer physically make the trailer lighter ? What us the advantage of doing this?


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## ROG (13 July 2014)

km-j said:



			1 - BE
2 - 1380
3 - 1940
4 - 1700
5 - 1600 or 2340
6 - 770 or 905 

Can you please tell me if this is okay Audi A3 thanks and weight can carry on both trailers
		
Click to expand...

Payloads ...
HB 401/3 = 830 (1600-770=830)
HB 505 = 795 (1700-905=795)

If the HB401/3 was down plated to 1550 then it would be legal for a B licence driver to tow


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## ROG (13 July 2014)

kinnygirl1 said:



			Hi ROG 

My little sister is looking at towing. She has B licence. What does down plating mean and how is it done?  Does the manufacturer physically make the trailer lighter ? What us the advantage of doing this?
		
Click to expand...

Down plating is done only by contact with the trailer manufacturer and reduces the payload = what the trailer can carry in it

In the post above I have given an example for a HB401/3

The Towing vehicle has a GVW of 1940 and the trailer a MAM of 1600 which is a total of 3540 so 40 too much for B licence towing
By contacting Ifor Williams in this case the trailer can be down plated from 1600 to 1550 so the total is now 3490 which is within the max of 3500 allowed for B towing

The payload for the trailer will be reduced from 830 to 780 but the actual weight of trailer remains the same 770

Does that answer your query? - if not then I will try to explain in another way


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## ROG (13 July 2014)

Another way of explaining down-plating for B licence towing


A trailer will have a plate stating what its maximum weight can be when fully loaded this is know as a the MAM
The trailer will have an empty (unladen) weight

The empty weight remains constant
The plated weight (max it can be when fully loaded) can be reduced by the trailer manufacturer only

A vehicle will also have a max weight it can be when fully loaded - this known as the GVW and is listed on the V5 registered keeper form as maximum authorised mass and on a plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame - The GVW is the top of the 4 figures on that plate

MAM and GVW mean the same thing as does a caravan MTPLM


The maximum total that a B licence driver can have when adding GVW and MAM together is 3500

If the vehicle has a GVW of 2200 then the maximum the trailer MAM can be is 1300

Taking the example of a vehicle with a GVW of 2200 and a HB401 which is 770 empty and has a MAM of 1600 we can see that the total is 3800 so needs to be reduced by 300

By contacting the manufacturer of HB401 we get the plate reduced from 1600 to 1300 and a new plate may need to be fitted by one of their dealers local to you or they may send you a new plate for you to organise fitting - swapping over the little metal plate on the trailer 

With the original 1600 plate the trailer could be loaded with 830 (1600-770=830) but as it has been down plated to 1300 it can now only be loaded with 530 (1300-770=530)

In the down plated trailer we load a 500 horse so we have 770+500=1270 for the actual weight of the trailer which is within the 1300 limit


We now look at the towing capacity figure for the vehicle and see if it is allowed to tow the actual weight of 1270


I hope that helps


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## Northern Hare (13 July 2014)

Hi ROG, please would you mind if I asked a question on behalf of a friend please?

"I am thinking of buying the CRV 2.2 Auto diesel. I am looking at pulling a Bateson trailer at 860kg and a max of two 14.2 ponies so say 1000kg absolute maximum (and this is over estimating pony weights). So I am talking a total weight of 1860kg and the vehicle's max braked towing weight says 2000kg. The kerb weight is 1712-1806kg (not that I understand the relevance of Kerb weight). 

Do you think this sounds suitable? I don't want to be feeling like the vehicle is struggling to do the job. I want it to be a safe towing vehicle but it also has to double up as the family car. 

Alternatively, please do you have any better suggestions?

Many thanks!


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## kinnygirl1 (13 July 2014)

Thank you for explaining the down plating... That does help a lot.


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## ROG (13 July 2014)

Northern Hare said:



			Hi ROG, please would you mind if I asked a question on behalf of a friend please?

"I am thinking of buying the CRV 2.2 Auto diesel. I am looking at pulling a Bateson trailer at 860kg and a max of two 14.2 ponies so say 1000kg absolute maximum (and this is over estimating pony weights). So I am talking a total weight of 1860kg and the vehicle's max braked towing weight says 2000kg. The kerb weight is 1712-1806kg (not that I understand the relevance of Kerb weight). 

Do you think this sounds suitable? I don't want to be feeling like the vehicle is struggling to do the job. I want it to be a safe towing vehicle but it also has to double up as the family car. 

Alternatively, please do you have any better suggestions?

Many thanks!
		
Click to expand...

Should be absolutely fine 

B+E licence required

As for economics - not my field


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## jeniwren (14 July 2014)

ROG said:



			32 now means he was born in 1982 so was age 17 in 1997 so could not have a pre 97 licence - if my math is ok
Assuming that driver only has a B licence ....

Vehicle GVW about 2500 with trailer MAM about 2300 = 4800 so well over the 3500 B licence limit
		
Click to expand...

Thank you, Rog.  Have to take the test then.


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## Tempi (15 July 2014)

Hi ROG 

I have a question re towing - I know you used to be able to have someone sat with you whilst you towed if you didn't have your B+E as long as they could legally drive a trailer.  

I have heard the rule is now changed and person sat with you must have had their B+E for 3 or more years (instead of just someone who passed their test before '97). 

Would you be able to clarify for me please? Going to be taking my test in next month or so and want to practice as well as obviously lessons but I don't have anyone with B+E to sit with me only someone who passed before 97. 

Thanks


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## ROG (15 July 2014)

Tempi said:



			Hi ROG 

I have a question re towing - I know you used to be able to have someone sat with you whilst you towed if you didn't have your B+E as long as they could legally drive a trailer.  

I have heard the rule is now changed and person sat with you must have had their B+E for 3 or more years (instead of just someone who passed their test before '97). 

Would you be able to clarify for me please? Going to be taking my test in next month or so and want to practice as well as obviously lessons but I don't have anyone with B+E to sit with me only someone who passed before 97. 

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
*They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.*

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


----------



## Tempi (15 July 2014)

Thank you


----------



## ROG (15 July 2014)

Tempi said:



			Thank you 

Click to expand...

you may find this useful.....



*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise VIDEO - Reversing Exercise - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
DSA REVERSING TEST AREA DIAGRAM DSA REVERSING TEST AREA DIAGRAM
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

The trailer must now be loaded with 600 kgs of sand bags or a 1000 kgs water IBC for the test so most companies are now training with that weight in the trailer
https://www.gov.uk/new-laden-testing-rules-for-driving-test-vehicles

Well explained here Well explained here

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos

This is interesting BUT NOT RECOMMENDED  a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test. So you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself. 
DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS 
Remember that the required 600 kgs of sand bags or 1 x 1000 IBC filled with water will be required in the trailer and the load must be secure.


----------



## spider (16 July 2014)

Hi Rog
I have the opportunity to acquire cheaply a Rover 75 with a 2 litre engine and a towing hook! Would this legally pull a trailer with a 14.3hh Welsh Cob? His weight is around 430kgs.
Thank you.


----------



## ROG (17 July 2014)

spider said:



			Hi Rog
I have the opportunity to acquire cheaply a Rover 75 with a 2 litre engine and a towing hook! Would this legally pull a trailer with a 14.3hh Welsh Cob? His weight is around 430kgs.
Thank you.
		
Click to expand...

An internet search reveals a towing capacity of 1600 kg so you should be ok with almost any trailer using a B+E licence
If you only have a B licence please let me know


To be certain for your model please locate the weight plate which is usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame then let me know the top 2 of the 4 figures on that plate


----------



## littlen (29 July 2014)

Hi,

Would towing with a diesel ford kuga 2.0 4x4 or VW tiguan 2.0 diesel ever be possible on a b licence?
If so with which trailer? 
( I don't want to do towing test!)

Are there any alternatives of largish cars I could use to tow one horse on a B? Current is an audi a3 1.6tdi sportback which I have asked about before but I have been told this is dangerous due to risk of car tipping over?


----------



## ROG (29 July 2014)

littlen said:



			Hi,

Would towing with a diesel ford kuga 2.0 4x4 or VW tiguan 2.0 diesel ever be possible on a b licence?
If so with which trailer? 
( I don't want to do towing test!)

Are there any alternatives of largish cars I could use to tow one horse on a B? Current is an audi a3 1.6tdi sportback which I have asked about before but I have been told this is dangerous due to risk of car tipping over?
		
Click to expand...

Car tipping over !!!! - what nonsense - if there was that possibility under normal conditions then restrictions on the type of trailer would be imposed by the maker of the vehicle

The simplest way to do things is to put the vehicle model into an internet search and add - kg gvw 

Once you have the GVW you deduct that from 3500 and see what plated weight is left for the trailer

A Bateson Derby trailer for example has an empty weight of 675 kg and with a horse of 500 kg you would need the plate on the trailer to be at least 1200 kg to allow for a little leeway
That Derby trailer is originally plated at 1700 but can be down plated by Bateson

If the Kuga has for example a GVW of 2300 then that leaves 1200 for a max trailer plate and if you had a trailer such as a HB505 with an empty weight about 900 then down plating that to 1200 would only leave 300 for the horse = not going work out unless the horse is going on a diet!



This is just one idea for a B licence towing set up

Skoda Octavia  4x4 1.6 diesel
GVW 1998 kg
Towing capacity 2000 kg

Bateson Derby trailer
Empty 675 kg
MAM 1700 but down plated to 1500*

* Contact Bateson on 0161 4260 500 and send them the 1700 plate off the trailer with £10
On receipt they will make up the new 1500 plate and send it to you to fix onto the trailer

The trailer can be loaded with 825 kg

The vehicle makes for a reasonably economical commuting car

These links may help
http://carleasingmadesimple.com/bus...octavia-diesel-estate_3/60610/technical-data/
http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1014
http://www.batesontrailers.com/contact-us/


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## littlen (29 July 2014)

Thanks very much for your help ROG I am clueless.

So I think the Tiguan has a kerb weight of 1600, so towing on a B license with this type of vehicle would be pretty much impossible?

I would be looking to pull something along the lines of an ifor williams hb401.

I am quite fussy as I don't want an estate if possible but an SUV type, however I don't think I could pass the test without spending a fortune on lessons. 

I think my audi may be underpowered at only 1.6litre engine but I am happy to be proved wrong! 

Thanks again!


----------



## ROG (29 July 2014)

littlen said:



			Thanks very much for your help ROG I am clueless.

So I think the Tiguan has a kerb weight of 1600, so towing on a B license with this type of vehicle would be pretty much impossible?

I would be looking to pull something along the lines of an ifor williams hb401.

I am quite fussy as I don't want an estate if possible but an SUV type, however I don't think I could pass the test without spending a fortune on lessons. 

I think my audi may be underpowered at only 1.6litre engine but I am happy to be proved wrong! 

Thanks again!
		
Click to expand...

Kerb weight has nothing to do with it at all

You need the GVW of the vehicle = the max it can legally be when fully loaded
Same goes for the trailer - the plated MAM = the max it can legally be when fully loaded
Add those two together and if over 3500 then its a no for a B licence

Do you need to tow on steep hills or softish ground?


----------



## littlen (29 July 2014)

Hi ROG, mainly roads but there is the odd hill required as the yard is at the top of a gravel track!

I would be towing the one pony (500kg) plus tack.

Off to find the GVW now,  thanks!


----------



## ROG (29 July 2014)

littlen said:



			Hi ROG, mainly roads but there is the odd hill required as the yard is at the top of a gravel track!

I would be towing the one pony (500kg) plus tack.

Off to find the GVW now,  thanks!
		
Click to expand...

Tack could always go in the vehicle

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/volkswagen/tiguan/gross-vehicle-weight/


----------



## littlen (30 July 2014)

Thanks ROG for all of your help!

The gross weight is 2.2k which would leave me 1.3k for trailer, pony and people. May be a push?


----------



## ROG (30 July 2014)

littlen said:



			Thanks ROG for all of your help!

The gross weight is 2.2k which would leave me 1.3k for trailer, pony and people. May be a push?
		
Click to expand...

Not unless you intend to put people and tack in the trailer!!!

Trailer MAM (1300) = max trailer can weigh with its load
Vehicle GVW (2200) = max vehicle can weigh with its load

500 horse with a trailer weighing about 700 empty = 1200 so plated at 1300 leaves 100 spare load capacity in the trailer


I have mentioned Bateson but also check out the top few trailers from this manufacturer - http://www.horsetrailersales.co.uk/cheval_liberte_index.asp


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## Bramble74 (30 July 2014)

Hi Rog,  

I've just seen FoolsMotto's thread in Clubhouse about new car and it triggered a thought.

I'm looking at getting an Audi A4 or A6 Avant (estate), 1.9 TDi, I would be looking at on with either 130 BHP or 150 BHP, nothing smaller.  According to the log book and details they can tow up to 1600KG or 1700KG, depending on the BHP.

The tow bar on one I looked at had a max nose weight of 75KG.

So, my questions are - Am I ok towing my Ifor 505 (I think the weight is 995KG), plus one horse around 430KG, I have a B+E Licence so it's more what the car can cope with, I know that is getting very close to the maximum the vehicle can cope with.

Would the car be able to cope with the weight of the trailer given that the tow bar  nose weight is 75KG?

Thanks for any insight.


----------



## ROG (30 July 2014)

Bramble74 said:



			Hi Rog,  

I've just seen FoolsMotto's thread in Clubhouse about new car and it triggered a thought.

I'm looking at getting an Audi A4 or A6 Avant (estate), 1.9 TDi, I would be looking at on with either 130 BHP or 150 BHP, nothing smaller.  According to the log book and details they can tow up to 1600KG or 1700KG, depending on the BHP.

The tow bar on one I looked at had a max nose weight of 75KG.

So, my questions are - Am I ok towing my Ifor 505 (I think the weight is 995KG), plus one horse around 430KG, I have a B+E Licence so it's more what the car can cope with, I know that is getting very close to the maximum the vehicle can cope with.

Would the car be able to cope with the weight of the trailer given that the tow bar  nose weight is 75KG?

Thanks for any insight.
		
Click to expand...

It should cope easily - it has been designed to on normal road type surfaces and gradients

Nose weights can vary depending how the load is placed in the trailer - I think there is a bit of kit that can show the nose weight transfer


----------



## Bramble74 (30 July 2014)

ROG said:



			It should cope easily - it has been designed to on normal road type surfaces and gradients

Nose weights can vary depending how the load is placed in the trailer - I think there is a bit of kit that can show the nose weight transfer
		
Click to expand...

Brilliant, Thanks Rog!  I'll check out the nose transfer weights.


----------



## Laura2408 (2 August 2014)

Hi ROG,
Can you clarify if this is possible of not please before I car shop.

1 - B license only 

2 - Ifor williams 401/403
770kg

3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
2250kg- vw tiguan

4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
Approx 2000kg

5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
Unsure of this one??

6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer 
770kg???


Plan to tow one horse approx 500kg along with tack in car.

Thanks a lot!!


----------



## ROG (2 August 2014)

Laura2408 said:



			Hi ROG,
Can you clarify if this is possible of not please before I car shop.

B license only 

Ifor williams 401/403 770kg

GVW of the towing vehicle 2250kg- vw tiguan

towing capacity of the towing vehicle Approx 2000kg

Plan to tow one horse approx 500kg along with tack in car.
		
Click to expand...

3500 minus 2250 = 1250

1250 is the max plated MAM for a trailer

with trailer at 770 empty and plated for 1250 max MAM = max trailer load of 480 so not going to work with that vehicle and trailer combo for a 500 horse


You need a trailer with that vehicle such as a Bateson Derby which is 675 empty and plated at 1250 leaving a trailer max load of 575 or you need a vehicle with a lower GVW


----------



## Laura2408 (2 August 2014)

Thanks a lot ROG really appreciate the help.

Would it be possible to downplate the ifor to make it legal?

Thanks again.


----------



## ROG (2 August 2014)

Laura2408 said:



			Thanks a lot ROG really appreciate the help.

Would it be possible to downplate the ifor to make it legal?

Thanks again.
		
Click to expand...

My example gave it a down plate from 1600 to 1250


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## ROG (2 August 2014)

With a GVW of 2250 then that leaves a max plate for the trailer of 1250 ..... 2250 + 1250 = 3500 = the max for B towing

the empty weight of the trailer cannot change unless things are removed from it like the roof !!

Having a max plated trailer MAM which is fixed at 1250 with that vehicle then the max load for the trailer will be its plated MAM minus the empty weight ..... 1250 - 770 = 480 in this case
The lower the empty trailer weight with the same trailer MAM means more trailer load capacity so using a trailer with an empty weight of 675 would be 1250 minus 675 = 575 in this case


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## Laura2408 (2 August 2014)

Thanks for the info! I have emailed bateson to see what they have suitable.

I'm also looking into other vehicles but the majority of small 4x4s seem to be 2000kg at least and my yard is up a steep muddy track so it must be 4x4!


----------



## ROG (2 August 2014)

Laura2408 said:



			Thanks for the info! I have emailed bateson to see what they have suitable.

I'm also looking into other vehicles but the majority of small 4x4s seem to be 2000kg at least and my yard is up a steep muddy track so it must be 4x4!
		
Click to expand...

Try cheval liberte trailers as well - some are only 625 empty and can be down plated by cheval


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## XxCoriexX (5 August 2014)

Hi All I am looking for some advice to see if I would be legal to tow a trailer 

I am seriously confused with all the different weights and some people telling me it legal, others saying it is legal if I downplate my trailer and some saying its illegal! 

This is all the information that I could find!

I have a B+E license
I drive a Tiguan Escape (off road version) with towing capability of 2500kg. 
the trailer unladen is 1100kg
the trailer maximum is 2700kg
and I also say these figures on the side of the car but have no idea what they are

2240kg
4740kg
1- 1160kg
2- 1130kg

I know this has not been very helpful so any help would be appreciated! 

I should also add that I only tow my horse who weighs about 550kg.


----------



## ROG (5 August 2014)

XxCoriexX said:



			Hi All I am looking for some advice to see if I would be legal to tow a trailer 

I am seriously confused with all the different weights and some people telling me it legal, others saying it is legal if I downplate my trailer and some saying its illegal! 

This is all the information that I could find!

I have a B+E license
I drive a Tiguan Escape (off road version) with towing capability of 2500kg. 
the trailer unladen is 1100kg
the trailer maximum is 2700kg
and I also say these figures on the side of the car but have no idea what they are

2240kg
4740kg
1- 1160kg
2- 1130kg

I know this has not been very helpful so any help would be appreciated! 

I should also add that I only tow my horse who weighs about 550kg.
		
Click to expand...

2500-1100=1400 
1400 is what you can load into the trailer

There is no law or rule which states that the manufacturers listed towing capacity of 2500 must be able to handle the trailer plated MAM of 2700 but there are plenty of internet myths that say differently

If anyone says different to me then ask them to prove it by directing you to something written that says so .... not going to happen


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## XxCoriexX (5 August 2014)

ROG said:



			2500-1100=1400 
1400 is what you can load into the trailer

There is no law or rule which states that the manufacturers listed towing capacity of 2500 must be able to handle the trailer plated MAM of 2700 but there are plenty of internet myths that say differently

If anyone says different to me then ask them to prove it by directing you to something written that says so .... not going to happen
		
Click to expand...

Thank Rog!! I though this this would be the case as I read through the legislation! all they mentioned was the train weight of the vehicle?! there are so many myths that I thought it best just to ask someone who knew! the one guy that keeps saying it is illegal just wouldn't stop so I asked him to find the piece of legislation that shows that and no response so far


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## ROG (5 August 2014)

XxCoriexX said:



			Thank Rog!! I though this this would be the case as I read through the legislation! all they mentioned was the train weight of the vehicle?! there are so many myths that I thought it best just to ask someone who knew! the one guy that keeps saying it is illegal just wouldn't stop so I asked him to find the piece of legislation that shows that and no response so far 

Click to expand...

If that guy is on an internet site then can you tell me which one please

GTW and towing capacity refer to actual weights and not the total(s) of plated weights

GVW and MAM refer to plated weights


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## XxCoriexX (5 August 2014)

Hi Rog it was actually on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/270096023025983/714668571902057/?notif_t=group_activity - that is the link to the page. the discussion was started by a lady called Irina. If you feel like giving me some backup on the post it would be much appreciated, all the other posters seem to agree with him even when I stated that VOSA had said it would be ok! he thinks that he is right and VOSA is wrong!


----------



## ROG (5 August 2014)

XxCoriexX said:



			Hi Rog it was actually on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/270096023025983/714668571902057/?notif_t=group_activity - that is the link to the page. the discussion was started by a lady called Irina. If you feel like giving me some backup on the post it would be much appreciated, all the other posters seem to agree with him even when I stated that VOSA had said it would be ok! he thinks that he is right and VOSA is wrong!
		
Click to expand...

Asked to join group so I can post but but accepted yet


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## mischamoo (7 August 2014)

ROG - is it still the rule for a B licence holder that the gross plated weight of the trailer (MAM) cannot exceed the vehicle kerbweight. I had a feeling the kerbweight rule has been removed at some point??


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## ROG (7 August 2014)

mischamoo said:



			ROG - is it still the rule for a B licence holder that the gross plated weight of the trailer (MAM) cannot exceed the vehicle kerbweight. I had a feeling the kerbweight rule has been removed at some point??
		
Click to expand...

That was revoked/scrapped on 19/01/2013


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## mischamoo (7 August 2014)

ROG said:



			That was revoked/scrapped on 19/01/2013
		
Click to expand...

Thought so - thank you for clarifying


----------



## ROG (7 August 2014)

XxCoriexX said:



			Hi Rog it was actually on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/270096023025983/714668571902057/?notif_t=group_activity - that is the link to the page. the discussion was started by a lady called Irina. If you feel like giving me some backup on the post it would be much appreciated, all the other posters seem to agree with him even when I stated that VOSA had said it would be ok! he thinks that he is right and VOSA is wrong!
		
Click to expand...

Put a post on that discussion and have had private contact with the member who thanked me for giving him the correct info

It seems he got confused by the way the DVLA had put it on the internet - no surprises there!


----------



## XxCoriexX (7 August 2014)

Hi Rog, 

I saw your post! thanks for clearing all of that up! was starting to feel a little bit outnumbered! Glad you managed to give him the correct information, he didn't seem to want to listen to me.


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## mischamoo (7 August 2014)

ROG, my friend is adamant that for B licence holders the kerb weight of the car must be more than the mam of the trailer, have you got any info I can direct him to please as he's giving me headache!!


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## ROG (7 August 2014)

mischamoo said:



			ROG, my friend is adamant that for B licence holders the kerb weight of the car must be more than the mam of the trailer, have you got any info I can direct him to please as he's giving me headache!!
		
Click to expand...

https://www.gov.uk/changes-to-the-driving-licence-and-categories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_licence_in_the_United_Kingdom#Driving_licence_categories
As you can see from both of those links the bit not there is the - MAM of trailer must nor exceed unladen weight of vehicle

It is not there because it has been omitted in the EU directive which came into force on 19/01/2013

There is nowhere which says it is revoked - it has just been omitted by the introduction of the new rules which means that legally it does not apply

If that does not convince him then try this letter from the DVLA gained VIA my MP


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## ROG (7 August 2014)

One more thing - try and find a B towing set up where the trailer can be heavier than the vehicle towing it - its virtually impossible


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## mischamoo (7 August 2014)

I haven't checked but he says it says it on the gov website about kerb weight??


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## ROG (7 August 2014)

mischamoo said:



			I haven't checked but he says it says it on the gov website about kerb weight??
		
Click to expand...

They are old laws which the DVLA have not taken down and look in no hurry to do so = prats


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## ROG (16 August 2014)

Back from a 1 week holiday so any Qs outstanding?


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## Haphazardhacker (17 August 2014)

hey have read most of thread so have good idea but just wanna check

1=b
2=1419
3=1820
4=3220/1400
no trailer yet but looking 
     iw403    /   cheval liberte gti  /  cheval liberte gold one/  bateson
5= 1600            1400                        1600                       1700
6=  767             720                         720                          675

From what i have read i would be ok with the gti but would need to down plate the others to 1419
is this correct?


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## ROG (17 August 2014)

Haphazardhacker said:



			hey have read most of thread so have good idea but just wanna check

1=b
2=1419
3=1820
4=3220/1400
no trailer yet but looking 
     iw403    /   cheval liberte gti  /  cheval liberte gold one/  bateson
5= 1600            1400                        1600                       1700
6=  767             720                         720                          675

From what i have read i would be ok with the gti but would need to down plate the others to 1419
is this correct?
		
Click to expand...

Max plated weight for trailer = 1680 kg
Max actual weight for trailer when loaded = 1400 kg .... because the 1400 is lower than 1680

An IW HB 403 is 780 empty (plated at 1600 so no need to down plate) so you could load that with 620 kg

What vehicle is it? - I ask as if a basic car or estate then the type of surfaces you need to tow on will be restrictive - no slippy stuff
May also be an issue with very steep hills if not a diesel


----------



## Haphazardhacker (17 August 2014)

Car is kia cee'd 4 sw 1.6 diesel 
I know I will have to plan routes carefully as hills won't be easy 
Thanks for quick reply


----------



## ROG (17 August 2014)

Haphazardhacker said:



			Car is kia cee'd 4 sw 1.6 diesel 
I know I will have to plan routes carefully as hills won't be easy 
Thanks for quick reply
		
Click to expand...

checked online and they all seem to have 1500 towing capacity - perhaps yours is not listed or an older model?


----------



## Haphazardhacker (17 August 2014)

http://www.kia.co.uk/~/media/specifications/spec-sheet-ceedsw.ashx

mine is cee'd sw 4 6 speed deisel and these stats actually make my gvw more but towing is 1400


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## ROG (17 August 2014)

Haphazardhacker said:



http://www.kia.co.uk/~/media/specifications/spec-sheet-ceedsw.ashx

mine is cee'd sw 4 6 speed deisel and these stats actually make my gvw more but towing is 1400
		
Click to expand...

Is it 1920 GVW not 1820?


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## Haphazardhacker (17 August 2014)

yeah seems like it


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## applecart14 (17 August 2014)

I tow with a Vauxhall Vectra Elite 1.9L TDi.

Its super for towing, does about 48.5 mpg towing, 51.7mpg urban. It tows lovely on the motorways and unlike my Peugeot 406 doesn't struggle on long inclines due to its 160bhp engine (I sound like Jeremy Clarkson).

If you have one horse I don't honestly think you need a big 4x4.  My trailer is 650KG and my horse is about 670KG, I have about 280KG spare for me and my tack which is more than enough.

Dads been working on my trailer at home recently - its 20 years old and like new, the floor Dad did with all hardwood and tongue and grooved it.  Then he took the sides out and replaced them with new sides, he's painted about three times over the years.  Its spotless, a really nice trailer, well looked after and maintained.


----------



## Nannon (17 August 2014)

Hi Rog,

Sorry haven't trawled the pages but my dad asked a valid question earlier to me - I have passed my B+E test but when towing to competitions and getting rosettes does this class as towing for reward (as in hire and reward) and therefore would need CPC training?


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## ROG (17 August 2014)

Haphazardhacker said:



			yeah seems like it
		
Click to expand...

In that case the max MAM for a trailer will be 1580 not 1680 so will need a little down plating


----------



## ROG (17 August 2014)

Nannon said:



			Hi Rog,

Sorry haven't trawled the pages but my dad asked a valid question earlier to me - I have passed my B+E test but when towing to competitions and getting rosettes does this class as towing for reward (as in hire and reward) and therefore would need CPC training?
		
Click to expand...

No and No

Commercial (H&W) is for making or intending to make a profit

Only Vehicles over 3.5 tonne used commercially need Driver CPC

Only towing combinations where the vehicle GVW added to the trailer plated MAM total over 3500 kg and used commercially need tacho


----------



## ROG (17 August 2014)

applecart14 said:



			I tow with a Vauxhall Vectra Elite 1.9L TDi.

Its super for towing, does about 48.5 mpg towing, 51.7mpg urban. It tows lovely on the motorways and unlike my Peugeot 406 doesn't struggle on long inclines due to its 160bhp engine (I sound like Jeremy Clarkson).

If you have one horse I don't honestly think you need a big 4x4.  My trailer is 650KG and my horse is about 670KG, I have about 280KG spare for me and my tack which is more than enough.

Dads been working on my trailer at home recently - its 20 years old and like new, the floor Dad did with all hardwood and tongue and grooved it.  Then he took the sides out and replaced them with new sides, he's painted about three times over the years.  Its spotless, a really nice trailer, well looked after and maintained.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.kezcars.co.uk/used-cars/vauxhall-vectra-1-9-cdti-elite-150-5dr-kettering-201407165849080
If that is your model then it has a GVW of 2005 kg so if on a B only licence (no B+E) then the trailer cannot be plated at more than 1495 kg


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## Calfie (17 August 2014)

Help! Totally confused by all this towing stuff and you see people towing with such a huge variety of vehicles. Husband has made murmurings about changing his car for a 4x4 and I'm hoping whatever he decides on will also be suitable for towing.

Can you please give me a view on the legality of the following:

I have a post 97 license but have passed my b+e
I would be towing an ifor 511 with 1 horse approx 500kg
Potential cars are:
1.  Honda CRV EX 2.2 Manual Diesel AWD (2014)
2.  Kia Sportage KX-4 2.0 Manual Diesel AWD (2014)
3.  Subaru Forester 2.0 Manual Diesel AWD (2014)

Many thanks!


----------



## ROG (17 August 2014)

Calfie said:



			Help! Totally confused by all this towing stuff and you see people towing with such a huge variety of vehicles. Husband has made murmurings about changing his car for a 4x4 and I'm hoping whatever he decides on will also be suitable for towing.

Can you please give me a view on the legality of the following:

I have a post 97 license but have passed my b+e
I would be towing an ifor 511 with 1 horse approx 500kg
Potential cars are:
1.  Honda CRV EX 2.2 Manual Diesel AWD (2014)
2.  Kia Sportage KX-4 2.0 Manual Diesel AWD (2014)
3.  Subaru Forester 2.0 Manual Diesel AWD (2014)

Many thanks!
		
Click to expand...

HB511 is about 1000 empty so with horse of 500 that makes 1500 and probably a bit more with other bits and pieces being put into the trailer so any 4x4/AWD with a towing capacity of at least 1600 will be fine - most have a towing capacity well over that

Check out the last link in my signature below


----------



## cloverleaf1985 (17 August 2014)

Hi ROG, I've been pointed in your direction!

I have a 1.2 5 door Micra, and I'm looking into trailer tents (sorry it's not horse related!)

I passed my test in 2004 and have 'B' on my licence. 

Is my car likely to be able to tow anything??
Am I legally allowed to with no extra training?
What is the weight limit I should look for on trailer tents?
What is the difference between laden and unladen?

I hope you can help!

Thanks


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## ROG (18 August 2014)

cloverleaf1985 said:



			Hi ROG, I've been pointed in your direction!

I have a 1.2 5 door Micra, and I'm looking into trailer tents (sorry it's not horse related!)

I passed my test in 2004 and have 'B' on my licence. 

Is my car likely to be able to tow anything??
Am I legally allowed to with no extra training?
What is the weight limit I should look for on trailer tents?
What is the difference between laden and unladen?

I hope you can help!

Thanks 

Click to expand...

From my internet search it seems the max actual weight your car can tow is 800 kg

No required training needed but many find a little can help especially if free from a friend

Tiny trailers are often easier to reverse by uncoupling them and moving manually

Laden means loaded
Un-laden means empty

You just need to know the actual weight of the trailer tent and see if its no more than 800 kg 

You can tow any of of these - http://www.blackcountrycaravans.co.uk/stocklist/type/new-trailer-tents


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## cloverleaf1985 (18 August 2014)

Thank you 

With laden/unladen, I meant does unladen mean the entire tent with mattresses etc and laden mean when you add other stuff like sleeping bags, camping equipment etc?


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## ROG (18 August 2014)

cloverleaf1985 said:



			Thank you 

With laden/unladen, I meant does unladen mean the entire tent with mattresses etc and laden mean when you add other stuff like sleeping bags, camping equipment etc?
		
Click to expand...

Unladen means nothing is in the trailer
Laden means something is in the trailer
Fully laden means the trailer is loaded to its maximum plated weight

What is in the trailer has nothing to do with what is in the car if that is what you were thinking


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## cloverleaf1985 (19 August 2014)

So the trailer tent as it comes out of the factory would be the unladen weight?


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## ROG (19 August 2014)

cloverleaf1985 said:



			So the trailer tent as it comes out of the factory would be the unladen weight?
		
Click to expand...

In this case - yes - sort of

normally we think of a completely empty trailer as being the unladen weight but as a trailer tent is a complete item then that would be both the laden and unladen weight unless there is also an option to add weight to it


----------



## Tiddlypom (19 August 2014)

Can I butt in here (apologies for muscling in)? Examples of items you could add to a trailer tent, which would increase the unladen weight, are a towbar mounted fridge box complete with 3 way camping fridge, plus folding chairs, a table, duvets, water carrier etc etc which you can travel packed inside the folded up trailer tent. Also, we carried 3 bikes on a dedicated cycle rack on the top of our trailer tent.

This all adds to the ex works unladen weight, but must not exceed the max laden weight of the trailer tent.

Of course you can put stuff in and on top of the car, too .


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## ROG (19 August 2014)

another thread on trailer tents = https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/showthread.php?674499-Trailer-tents-Yay-or-nay


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## lexibell (19 August 2014)

Hi ROG

I just want to check this combo with you please.....

2003 5 door 2.0 Auto Mitsubishi Shogun pinin 

With HB 401 Trailer and a 500 kg native pony

on a B License, I think this is OK????


----------



## applecart14 (19 August 2014)

Thought I would show a photo of my car and trailer combo complete with horse.  The photo shows my horse staring at the paddock where the pig was kept!  It was my horses next visit to the show centre where I had unfortunately showed him a pig the show before and he was terrified and had refused to load to go home and has never really got his fright!


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## ROG (19 August 2014)

applecart14 said:



			Thought I would show a photo of my car and trailer combo complete with horse.
		
Click to expand...

What vehicle model and trailer is that?
What licence do you hold?


----------



## ROG (19 August 2014)

lexibell said:



			Hi ROG

I just want to check this combo with you please.....

2003 5 door 2.0 Auto Mitsubishi Shogun pinin 

With HB 401 Trailer and a 500 kg native pony

on a B License, I think this is OK????
		
Click to expand...

Shogun = http://www.automobile-catalog.com/c..._shogun_pinin_2_0_gdi_5door2_0_gdi_5door.html
GVW 1890
Towing capacity 1500

HB401 = http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1062
Empty 770
MAM 1600

1890 + 1600 = 3490 so under the B licence limit of 3500

The max load for trailer will be 730 kg (1500 - 770 = 730)


What a nice B towing set up


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## lexibell (19 August 2014)

ROG said:



			Shogun = http://www.automobile-catalog.com/c..._shogun_pinin_2_0_gdi_5door2_0_gdi_5door.html
GVW 1890
Towing capacity 1500

HB401 = http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1062
Empty 770
MAM 1600

1890 + 1600 = 3490 so under the B licence limit of 3500

The max load for trailer will be 730 kg (1500 - 770 = 730)


What a nice B towing set up
		
Click to expand...


Phewwwweeee!!

OH put down the deposit on the Shogun already!! 

Thanks ROG - Happy towing days ahead


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## applecart14 (21 August 2014)

ROG said:



			What vehicle model and trailer is that?
What licence do you hold?
		
Click to expand...



Hi ROG its the Vauxhall Vectra  1.9L Elite and max weight 1600KG. It has 160bhp which means it tows really well.

Trailer is old Rice Richardson (may be Beaufort model but not sure) and weighs either 600KG or 650KG (we know this is we have looked at the chassis plate in 1996).  In 1996 when we got the trailer we had to shop around for a trailer that was really lightweight as I had a Sierra  Saphire as a towing vehicle and this was about the only light weight trailer we could find.  There was another one which is yellow and white and begins with  the letter B but I can't remember the make of it!

Never had a problem towing it but the Peugeot did struggle  a little up long inclines on the motorway but otherwise was okay.

I have a full licence.


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## ROG (21 August 2014)

No probs with a full B+E licence


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## Clannad48 (21 August 2014)

A quick question with regard to limiting speed when towing a trailer.  I have recently been travelling a lot on motorways with the trailer and have, road conditions and weather conditions permitting, kept my speed to 50 - 55mph. However I have had several other vehicle drivers get 'annoyed' at the speed I am travelling. Now this doesn't phase me, I can gesticulate with the best of them. Now the question, I am considering sticking a couple of 'Restricted to 55mph' stickers on the back of the trailer.  Any thoughts on either the limit figure I should apply or whether if I go over the limit I have put on myself whether I would be illegal.  Silly I know but just wanted to know other peoples thoughts.


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## ROG (21 August 2014)

Clannad48 said:



			A quick question with regard to limiting speed when towing a trailer.  I have recently been travelling a lot on motorways with the trailer and have, road conditions and weather conditions permitting, kept my speed to 50 - 55mph. However I have had several other vehicle drivers get 'annoyed' at the speed I am travelling. Now this doesn't phase me, I can gesticulate with the best of them. Now the question, I am considering sticking a couple of 'Restricted to 55mph' stickers on the back of the trailer.  Any thoughts on either the limit figure I should apply or whether if I go over the limit I have put on myself whether I would be illegal.  Silly I know but just wanted to know other peoples thoughts.
		
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Not illegal but as not actually speed limiter restricted I would put simply - Max speed 55 mph 

Perhaps also underneath it - please pass safely


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## Clannad48 (21 August 2014)

Thanks ROG, I didn't think it would render me illegal if I went over the limit on the sticker but wanted other drivers to be aware. Most drivers are considerate but as always there are the idiots out there.


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## applecart14 (22 August 2014)

Clannad48 said:



			Thanks ROG, I didn't think it would render me illegal if I went over the limit on the sticker but wanted other drivers to be aware. Most drivers are considerate but as always there are the idiots out there.
		
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Yeah I remember towing along the M6 with some idiot in a pick up truck in front of me with the back down and a pile of scaffolding poles rattling around loose in the back with one pole just starting its journey out of the back and could just see a 'Final Destination' moment coming (excellent film).  I cut my speed and got well back from him, dialed 999 and had a conversation with the traffic police who found him on the cameras and sent a motorway blues and twos out to meet him!  Could just see it coming through my windscreen, through me first and then the horse, nicely skewered like a kebab.  Nasty.


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## ROG (23 August 2014)

Bank holiday weekend BUMP in case anyone has any questions


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## HaffiesRock (23 August 2014)

I have a question 

Today I have purchased myself a nice little Rice Eventer pony trailer! I am very excited and for now my dad will be towing it until I pass my test.

My question is, can I legally tow the trailer (empty) with my dad sat with me while I prepare for my test? Dad used to be a firefighter and taught people how to drive fire engines many years ago so I trust his judgement to guide me 

The car is a Freelander TD4 but I'm not sure what it's weights and stuff are. Trailer will be weighed at the weekend but the seller said it is a little under 700kg.

If I can save some money on lessons by getting confident towing and reversing it, then probably have a lesson before my test that would be great. I passed my test in 2007. 

Thanks


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## ROG (23 August 2014)

HaffiesRock said:



			I have a question 

Today I have purchased myself a nice little Rice Eventer pony trailer! I am very excited and for now my dad will be towing it until I pass my test.

My question is, can I legally tow the trailer (empty) with my dad sat with me while I prepare for my test? Dad used to be a firefighter and taught people how to drive fire engines many years ago so I trust his judgement to guide me 

The car is a Freelander TD4 but I'm not sure what it's weights and stuff are. Trailer will be weighed at the weekend but the seller said it is a little under 700kg.

If I can save some money on lessons by getting confident towing and reversing it, then probably have a lesson before my test that would be great. I passed my test in 2007. 

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner


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## HaffiesRock (23 August 2014)

Thanks Rog


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## ROG (23 August 2014)

*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
VIDEO - VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - VIDEO - Reversing Exercise - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
DIAGRAM - DSA REVERSING TEST AREA DIAGRAM
VIDEO - VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

The trailer must now be loaded with 600 kgs of sand bags or a 1000 kgs water IBC for the test so most companies are now training with that weight in the trailer
https://www.gov.uk/new-laden-testing-rules-for-driving-test-vehicles

Well explained here

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos


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## ROG (24 August 2014)

As the test is now done with a loaded trailer you might as well progress to towing with it loaded with your Dad supervising


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## ROG (25 August 2014)

oops - did not mean to post here !
never mind


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## exracer superstar (30 August 2014)

Hi ROG,
Currently trying to work out if i need to do my B+E straight away or if i am in the limits for the time being. I have a 1.9 suzuki grand vitara (5 door) 61 plate car. An ifor williams HB406 single trailer and a 15.2 welsh d weighing approx 500 kg. Will i be within the law or do i need to do my B+E straight away ive tried ot work it out using the formula but getting mixed up.

Thanks


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## ROG (30 August 2014)

exracer superstar said:



			Hi ROG,
Currently trying to work out if i need to do my B+E straight away or if i am in the limits for the time being. I have a 1.9 suzuki grand vitara (5 door) 61 plate car. An ifor williams HB406 single trailer and a 15.2 welsh d weighing approx 500 kg. Will i be within the law or do i need to do my B+E straight away ive tried ot work it out using the formula but getting mixed up.

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Assuming this is your car = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/bus...-vitara-diesel-estate_2/58681/technical-data/
GVW 2170

HB406?? (I reckon its a 401 or 403) MAM 1600 if not down plated

total MAM = 3770 (2170+1600=3770) so 270 over B towing limit

SOLUTION = contact IW and get trailer down plated to 1300 which will still leave 530 kg for the load/horse = a little tight on weight but ok


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## exracer superstar (30 August 2014)

ROG said:



			Assuming this is your car = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/bus...-vitara-diesel-estate_2/58681/technical-data/
GVW 2170

HB406?? (I reckon its a 401 or 403) MAM 1600 if not down plated

total MAM = 3770 (2170+1600=3770) so 270 over B towing limit

SOLUTION = contact IW and get trailer down plated to 1300 which will still leave 530 kg for the load/horse = a little tight on weight but ok
		
Click to expand...

Whoops dodgy phone typing, yes 403 i meant lol and thats the right car. brilliant thank you for your help i will do that


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## Kylara (30 August 2014)

Hi, don't know the weights and just happened upon this thread and thought I would ask.
I have a B license (post the grandfather rights) and we do have a trailer (I believe it is an HB505 - the older one without the side windows!). The vehicle I am insured to drive that can tow is a 110 LR Defender 2.3L diesel (2013 I think). 



I was just wondering if I would actually be able to tow it (I don't think I can but would like to know either way). If in the unlikely event that I can tow it, what weight could I have in it? I am useless with the formula and none of it make much sense when I do try and work it out! As it is the only person I show groom for has a 7.5t lorry with carriage and ponies in and the owner drives that! It would be handy to know if I could tow a trailer in the Defender, what sort of trailer could I tow? We may end up with a team in the lorry and a carriage needing to be trailered and towed and if I can tow with the Defender without the B+E that would be great (but like I said I highly doubt it!). Thanks in advance ROG


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## ROG (30 August 2014)

Kylara said:



			Hi, don't know the weights and just happened upon this thread and thought I would ask.
I have a B license (post the grandfather rights) and we do have a trailer (I believe it is an HB505 - the older one without the side windows!). The vehicle I am insured to drive that can tow is a 110 LR Defender 2.3L diesel (2013 I think). 



I was just wondering if I would actually be able to tow it (I don't think I can but would like to know either way). If in the unlikely event that I can tow it, what weight could I have in it? I am useless with the formula and none of it make much sense when I do try and work it out! As it is the only person I show groom for has a 7.5t lorry with carriage and ponies in and the owner drives that! It would be handy to know if I could tow a trailer in the Defender, what sort of trailer could I tow? We may end up with a team in the lorry and a carriage needing to be trailered and towed and if I can tow with the Defender without the B+E that would be great (but like I said I highly doubt it!). Thanks in advance ROG
		
Click to expand...

GVW of over 3000 kg so the max plated trailer you can tow on a B licence is 750 kg

the trailer also has a very high plated MAM


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## Kylara (30 August 2014)

Haha I was pretty sure I couldn't tow it. But good to know the Defender is a sturdy beast! Baby trailer or B+E licence it is then! Thanks.

Also not sure if you would know or not but if you get the HGV (non articulated - C I think? I am slowly saving up for that test!) licence can you tow a trailer or would you need the B+E as well?

And just to show how inept I am with trailers is a very high plated MAM good or bad?!

Thanks so much, really appreciate the help


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## ROG (30 August 2014)

Kylara said:



			Haha I was pretty sure I couldn't tow it. But good to know the Defender is a sturdy beast! Baby trailer or B+E licence it is then! Thanks.

Also not sure if you would know or not but if you get the HGV (non articulated - C I think? I am slowly saving up for that test!) licence can you tow a trailer or would you need the B+E as well?

And just to show how inept I am with trailers is a very high plated MAM good or bad?!

Thanks so much, really appreciate the help 

Click to expand...

High MAM depends on why?

Too high means less good for B towing

Passing a LGV C1 or C test does not increase towing allowances
You need to pass a +E test to do that


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## Kylara (30 August 2014)

Sorry, didn't explain very well! I meant good for towing heavier things? So if my carriage driver gets a team together either two horses in trailer or carriage - ponies not particularly heavy (under 12hh) but carriage more so (although I don't know exact weight). Would the high MAM be good for heavier trailer load I think is what I am asking. Also I am assuming the Defender is a good towing vehicle should it be used as such 

Ah so the C+E would cover towing then? But would the E cover driving with the Defender or just a lorry? (Also is LGV over 7.5t?) Not particularly fussed about the B towing as plenty of people/friends qualified for towing so I am trying to work out whether to get the 7.5t + lorry test or a trailer test or combo of both really  You really are a fount of knowledge ROG


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## ROG (30 August 2014)

Kylara said:



			Sorry, didn't explain very well! I meant good for towing heavier things? So if my carriage driver gets a team together either two horses in trailer or carriage - ponies not particularly heavy (under 12hh) but carriage more so (although I don't know exact weight). Would the high MAM be good for heavier trailer load I think is what I am asking. Also I am assuming the Defender is a good towing vehicle should it be used as such 

Ah so the C+E would cover towing then? But would the E cover driving with the Defender or just a lorry? (Also is LGV over 7.5t?) Not particularly fussed about the B towing as plenty of people/friends qualified for towing so I am trying to work out whether to get the 7.5t + lorry test or a trailer test or combo of both really  You really are a fount of knowledge ROG 

Click to expand...

or C1+E if towing with a 7.5

Getting any +E will give B+E for life

Higher the trailer MAM and lower the trailer empty weight = more payload that can be put in the trailer 

The vehicle towing capacity or max actual weight that can be pulled by the vehicle will also need to be taken into account


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## Kylara (30 August 2014)

Thanks so much ROG!

I'll be saving up for the C1+E then! 

Excellent nice to know how the payload works out with my HB505 - will have a look into it 

Any idea what the max towing weight for the Defender would be with a +E? I always find the DVLA website useless for everything and struggle to find the info I need - the OH is the car person but he is less fussed about the whole towing thing other than "yeah, do that. Would be handy for carting insulation around for the house renovation"!

I really appreciate all your help with this, you have made it make quite a bit more sense!


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## ROG (30 August 2014)

Kylara said:



			Thanks so much ROG!

I'll be saving up for the C1+E then! 

Excellent nice to know how the payload works out with my HB505 - will have a look into it 

Any idea what the max towing weight for the Defender would be with a +E? I always find the DVLA website useless for everything and struggle to find the info I need - the OH is the car person but he is less fussed about the whole towing thing other than "yeah, do that. Would be handy for carting insulation around for the house renovation"!

I really appreciate all your help with this, you have made it make quite a bit more sense! 

Click to expand...

Max braked towing for a defender is 3500 kg = http://vanleasingmadesimple.com/van-leasing/land-rover/defender/max-towing-weight-braked/

HB505 = http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1063
Empty 905
MAM 2340
Payload 1435 kg

Getting C1+E means doing 2 LGV tests - C1 then C1+E = between £2000 and £3000
It costs just a little more to do C then C+E which covers the above
You then have the medical to keep current

Getting B+E will cost between £600 and £700 in most cases
It will also last for life and needs no theory or medical


To see more about LGV take a look at the LGV link in my signature below


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## Kylara (30 August 2014)

Thanks for that, really helpful.

So really it would be worth getting the C then C+E and operators licence for a bit more money (more saving up!) rather than the C1+E as that still restricts you to 7.5t which is a small lorry. Or would it be worth doing the C and then a B+E? As it would be unlikely to have to tow with a big lorry (although saying that, if she gets her big team and a coach we would need a big lorry and a carriage towing trailer so hmmm). I would still need the medical for the C though.

You really are a fabulous source of really excellent and helpful information, thanks


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## ROG (30 August 2014)

Kylara said:



			Thanks for that, really helpful.

So really it would be worth getting the C then C+E and operators licence for a bit more money (more saving up!) rather than the C1+E as that still restricts you to 7.5t which is a small lorry. Or would it be worth doing the C and then a B+E? As it would be unlikely to have to tow with a big lorry (although saying that, if she gets her big team and a coach we would need a big lorry and a carriage towing trailer so hmmm). I would still need the medical for the C though.

You really are a fabulous source of really excellent and helpful information, thanks 

Click to expand...

Medical then ongoing medicals for any LGV

You have to decide what your needs will be and then get the licences that meet those needs


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## Kylara (30 August 2014)

Excellent, thanks!
Just got to save up for it all now! 
Probably the C+E. Not fussed about medical as I am fit and healthy  as that should cover all eventualities. The only issue would be remembering to fill in details for 7.5t + lorries and fulfilling the working hours stuff (although shouldn't be too tough as a freelance). It would be worth having even so that we could share the lorry driving once we start going carriage driving eventing


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## ROG (30 August 2014)

Kylara said:



			Excellent, thanks!
Just got to save up for it all now! 
Probably the C+E. Not fussed about medical as I am fit and healthy  as that should cover all eventualities. The only issue would be remembering to fill in details for 7.5t + lorries and fulfilling the working hours stuff (although shouldn't be too tough as a freelance). It would be worth having even so that we could share the lorry driving once we start going carriage driving eventing 

Click to expand...

If going for C+E then tick C & D only on the D2 form


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## Kylara (30 August 2014)

ROG said:



			If going for C+E then tick C & D only on the D2 form
		
Click to expand...

Haha I have to save the money up first! 

But thanks for that, forms are always a nightmare!


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## pickwickayr (31 August 2014)

Hello I was wondering if this combination is legal with a B license -
Trailer weight is 750kg
Trailer MAM is 1700kgs
Car is Audi 1.9tdi 2009
towing capacity 1500kgs
Kerbweight 1350kgs

pony is 14.2hh weighing 450kgs .


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## ROG (31 August 2014)

pickwickayr said:



			Hello I was wondering if this combination is legal with a B license -
Trailer weight is 750kg
Trailer MAM is 1700kgs
Car is Audi 1.9tdi 2009
towing capacity 1500kgs
Kerbweight 1350kgs

pony is 14.2hh weighing 450kgs .
		
Click to expand...

I am going to ASSUME the Audi GVW is about 2000 kg - that is the top of the 4 weights on the plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame

If that 2000 GVW is correct then adding the 1700 trailer MAM gives a total of 3700 which is 200 too much for B towing

SOLUTION - contact trailer manufacturer and down plate trailer to 1500 which would still leave 750 kgs for the trailer load/horse


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## samlf (31 August 2014)

I think I am asking the impossible - but wondering what car I can buy that can tow 1800kg (or possible 1700), that has an MAM of <1700kg (so that I could tow on the B licence)?

I would rather avoid estates if possible, and that isn't too expensive to buy 2nd hand. The few I have come up with are - Audi A4 (but only the estate version as need a good boot for the dogs), Audi A3 (but think towing capacity will be too low) Mondeo estate.


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## ROG (1 September 2014)

samlf said:



			I think I am asking the impossible - but wondering what car I can buy that can tow 1800kg (or possible 1700), that has an MAM of <1700kg (so that I could tow on the B licence)?

I would rather avoid estates if possible, and that isn't too expensive to buy 2nd hand. The few I have come up with are - Audi A4 (but only the estate version as need a good boot for the dogs), Audi A3 (but think towing capacity will be too low) Mondeo estate.
		
Click to expand...

A quick check reveals that all of those cars are nearer to 2000 GVW

I reckon its impossible

Are you trying to tow a trailer with 2 horses in it?


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## samlf (1 September 2014)

No, just a trailer with one horse but it's a 16hh ID and I would say upper weight of 600kg. I can't find any trailers with less than 950kg unloaded weight unless I'm looking at the wrong figures? 

Or are there any small 4x4s that could do it?


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## ROG (1 September 2014)

samlf said:



			No, just a trailer with one horse but it's a 16hh ID and I would say upper weight of 600kg. I can't find any trailers with less than 950kg unloaded weight unless I'm looking at the wrong figures? 

Or are there any small 4x4s that could do it?
		
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you are referring to ACTUAL weights but licencing laws go on PLATED weights

You need a trailer with a low empty weight and perhaps a plated MAM of 1500 if the vehicle is 2000 max GVW 

If necessary contact manufacturer and down plate one of these to 1500

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1014

http://www.jswhorseboxes.co.uk/transport/horse-trailers/new-trailers/cheval-liberte-gt1-3.htm

http://www.chevaltrailers.co.uk/single-mare-foal.html


This car might tick all the boxes = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/bus...octavia-diesel-estate_3/60610/technical-data/


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## ROG (1 September 2014)

I did this thread a short while ago = https://forums-secure.horseandhound...s-one-idea-for-a-B-only-licence-towing-set-up


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## samlf (2 September 2014)

Thanks ROG - I am aware that plated weight is what is important and that you can get a trailer down-plated but I couldn't seem to find any trailers less than about 950kg unladen which doesn't give you much to play with. 

The bateson derby looks ideal on paper but in reality I cant find any for sale anywhere so looks like they're very difficult to get hold of (which would probably mean when you do find one they're very expensive!).
Don't think I could afford a cheval liberte, and they also seem difficult to get hold of 2nd hand.

so I think options are 4x4 and do trailer test, or get 3.5t or do C1. 

I am likely to have to take C1 in the near future anyway, so perhaps it'd be better to get a 4.5/5t so I can take both horses out. It's just that I don't go out often enough and I worry the lorry would keep going wrong due to sitting for long periods of time.


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## ROG (2 September 2014)

samlf said:



			Thanks ROG - I am aware that plated weight is what is important and that you can get a trailer down-plated but I couldn't seem to find any trailers less than about 950kg unladen which doesn't give you much to play with. 

The bateson derby looks ideal on paper but in reality I cant find any for sale anywhere so looks like they're very difficult to get hold of (which would probably mean when you do find one they're very expensive!).
Don't think I could afford a cheval liberte, and they also seem difficult to get hold of 2nd hand.

so I think options are 4x4 and do trailer test, or get 3.5t or do C1. 

I am likely to have to take C1 in the near future anyway, so perhaps it'd be better to get a 4.5/5t so I can take both horses out. It's just that I don't go out often enough and I worry the lorry would keep going wrong due to sitting for long periods of time.
		
Click to expand...

If you get C1 then consider getting C1+E afterwards as that will also give B+E for life

check out the LGV link in my signature below before proceeding to LGV C1


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## samlf (2 September 2014)

Thanks, I have already got C1 hazard perception and theory passed, and been and had a test drive and quote for training but going to wait until early next year to get it done I think.


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## ROG (2 September 2014)

samlf said:



			Thanks, I have already got C1 hazard perception and theory passed, and been and had a test drive and quote for training but going to wait until early next year to get it done I think.
		
Click to expand...

Avoid brokers/middlemen - always visit before parting with any money


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## ROG (4 September 2014)

Kezzabell2 said:



			ROG, according to http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/index.htm   I can tow my 590kg horse in a Ifor Williams 505 with a Ford Focus 2.0tdci with a b + e licence!  do you agree?  

I don't have the licence yet but will do some training and apply for the test if I know the car is capable 


Ford (Focus 2.0 litre TDCi 4 door saloon)


Ford (Focus 2.0 litre TDCi 4 door saloon)Capable of towing: 1500.00 kg
		
Click to expand...

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/ford/focus/towing-weight-limit/
According to the above link it has a towing capacity of 1500
The HB505 has an empty weight of 905 plus horse 590 = 1490 
As that is legal but so close to the maximum I would suggest a trip to a weighbridge to see if it is ok


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## ROG (4 September 2014)

GG2B said:



			Great post! I'm probably being extremely dumb, but I currently have a 62 plate ix35 1.6 petrol. I believe the braked towing limit is 1,200kg, would this be enough to tow anything with on a B licence or do I need to look to sell car/take my trailer test?
		
Click to expand...

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/hyundai/ix35-estate/62140/technical-data/ - is that your car?
GVW 1830
Towing capacity 1200
The trailer I would suggest is a Bateson Derby which is 675 empty so could take a 500 kg horse - JUST

With your GVW of 1830 you would need the trailer down plating from its 1700 MAM to anything between 1200 and 1670 kg

down plating to 1600 would be my recommendation but you are still limited to an actual weight when loaded of 1200 due to the lower towing capacity figure


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## FestiveFuzz (4 September 2014)

ROG said:



http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/hyundai/ix35-estate/62140/technical-data/ - is that your car?
GVW 1830
Towing capacity 1200
The trailer I would suggest is a Bateson Derby which is 675 empty so could take a 500 kg horse - JUST

With your GVW of 1830 you would need the trailer down plating from its 1700 MAM to anything between 1200 and 1670 kg

down plating to 1600 would be my recommendation but you are still limited to an actual weight when loaded of 1200 due to the lower towing capacity figure
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ROG! My car is this one - http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/hyundai/ix35-estate/ but think the towing capacity is still the same.


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## ROG (4 September 2014)

GG2B said:



			Thanks ROG! My car is this one - http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/hyundai/ix35-estate/ but think the towing capacity is still the same.
		
Click to expand...

That link lists many models not your specific one

If the GVW as well as the towing capacity is the same then my previous answer still applies


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## [59668] (4 September 2014)

How about this set up for a B licence only:

Cheval Liberte 1 horse trailer.  720kg unladen and a max weight of 1600kg, giving a payload of more than enough!

Mitsubishi Shogun old style SWB, kerb weight 1735kg, and max braked towing weight of 2.8kg.

Car+trailer = 3,335kg, so less than 3,500kg

kerb weight car > max weight trailer so that's ok too?


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## ROG (4 September 2014)

[59668] said:



			How about this set up for a B licence only:

Cheval Liberte 1 horse trailer.  720kg unladen and a max weight of 1600kg, giving a payload of more than enough!

Mitsubishi Shogun old style SWB, kerb weight 1735kg, and max braked towing weight of 2.8kg.

Car+trailer = 3,335kg, so less than 3,500kg

kerb weight car > max weight trailer so that's ok too?
		
Click to expand...

If the kerb weight is 1735 then the GVW is going to be at about 2300 kg

2300 GVW + 1600 MAM = 3900 kg so well over 3500 limit


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## ROG (7 September 2014)

shogun/Pajero specs - right click and select all to see the white coloured text
http://www.pocuk.com/faq/specs.htm


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## DJ (8 September 2014)

Hello ROG ... Hoping you can help me with this as i`m turning myself inside out over it ... I can`t do the test, not because I can`t drive or reverse, but because I go to pieces because it`s a "test" (and get in such a state it`s just silly) and so i`m try to find a way around it if I can, using my swb Pajero + any trailer combination that would work? ... (I have a dock licence and drive both artics and rigid tippers so it`s not like I can`t drive)

I would need -

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE

B (normal car)

2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle

2020kg (put on the weigh bridge with full tank of fuel)

3 - GVW of the towing vehicle

I don`t know this ... it`s a 94 swb Pajero.

4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle

Towing capacity is 2.5t

5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres:

Hoping you can help me out here, I think the Bateson Derby is going to be the best one to give me a legal combination? 

6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer 

On another thread I think you said 675kg? (max id 1700 but can be down plated to 1500?)


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## ROG (8 September 2014)

DCJACE said:



			Hello ROG ... Hoping you can help me with this as i`m turning myself inside out over it ... I can`t do the test, not because I can`t drive or reverse, but because I go to pieces because it`s a "test" (and get in such a state it`s just silly) and so i`m try to find a way around it if I can, using my swb Pajero + any trailer combination that would work? ... (I have a dock licence and drive both artics and rigid tippers so it`s not like I can`t drive)

I would need -

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE

B (normal car)

2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle

2020kg (put on the weigh bridge with full tank of fuel)

3 - GVW of the towing vehicle

I don`t know this ... it`s a 94 swb Pajero.

4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle

Towing capacity is 2.5t

5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres:

Hoping you can help me out here, I think the Bateson Derby is going to be the best one to give me a legal combination? 

6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer 

On another thread I think you said 675kg? (max id 1700 but can be down plated to 1500?)
		
Click to expand...

Which model is yours from this list - http://www.automobile-catalog.com/make/mitsubishi/pajero_2gen/pajero_2gen_export_3d/1994.html

I am going to ASSUME it is one with the 2300 GVW and not the one with a 2350 GVW

The max GVW (car) + MAM (trailer) is 3500 for B towing so 3500 minus 2300 = 1200 for trailer MAM

Bateson Derby trailer
Empty 675 kg
MAM 1700 but down plated to 1200*

* Contact Bateson on 0161 4260 500 and send them the 1700 plate off the trailer with £10
On receipt they will make up the new 1200 plate and send it to you to fix onto the trailer

The trailer can be loaded with 525 kg which if you have a horse very near that weight it could be very close so you need to get the exact weight of the horse and anything else you intend to load into that trailer


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## DJ (8 September 2014)

ROG said:



			Which model is yours from this list - http://www.automobile-catalog.com/make/mitsubishi/pajero_2gen/pajero_2gen_export_3d/1994.html

I am going to ASSUME it is one with the 2300 GVW and not the one with a 2350 GVW

The max GVW (car) + MAM (trailer) is 3500 for B towing so 3500 minus 2300 = 1200 for trailer MAM

Bateson Derby trailer
Empty 675 kg
MAM 1700 but down plated to 1200*

* Contact Bateson on 0161 4260 500 and send them the 1700 plate off the trailer with £10
On receipt they will make up the new 1200 plate and send it to you to fix onto the trailer

The trailer can be loaded with 525 kg which if you have a horse very near that weight it could be very close so you need to get the exact weight of the horse and anything else you intend to load into that trailer
		
Click to expand...

You really are a legend 

How ever sadly mine is this one:

http://www.automobile-catalog.com/c...hi_pajero_2800_td_intercooler_gls_3-door.html

Which is a GVW of 2510kg, so definitely not doable ... gutted


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## ROG (9 September 2014)

DCJACE said:



			You really are a legend 

How ever sadly mine is this one:

http://www.automobile-catalog.com/c...hi_pajero_2800_td_intercooler_gls_3-door.html

Which is a GVW of 2510kg, so definitely not doable ... gutted 

Click to expand...

Solution is a different towing vehicle with a lower GVW


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## Rides (9 September 2014)

Helpfully advised via another thread to post on here! answers much appreciated as im now holding out hope that i can avoid taking a test OR paying to run a  3.5t box! 

this is the line from gov.uk: "if you passed your test after 1997 you can....tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg"

So if you say had a IW 403 which has an unladen weight of 767, and a nissan xtrail which weighs just over 1500 kg.... total weight under 2300kg? even if its laden, 700kg of horse would only take this up to 3000kg..... am i missing something or would this be totally legal?


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## ROG (9 September 2014)

Rides said:



			Helpfully advised via another thread to post on here! answers much appreciated as im now holding out hope that i can avoid taking a test OR paying to run a  3.5t box! 

this is the line from gov.uk: "if you passed your test after 1997 you can....tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg"

So if you say had a IW 403 which has an unladen weight of 767, and a nissan xtrail which weighs just over 1500 kg.... total weight under 2300kg? even if its laden, 700kg of horse would only take this up to 3000kg..... am i missing something or would this be totally legal?
		
Click to expand...

Licences go on plated weights not actual weights

The DVLA has missed out the word MAM as usual !

Put simply - to tow a trailer over 750 kg plated MAM on a B licence the one extra rule on top of all the usual towing rules is that the vehicle plated GVW added to the trailer plated MAM must not total more than 3500 kg

GVW MAM MTPLM all mean the same thing = the maximum permitted legal weight something can be when fully loaded


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## ROG (9 September 2014)

IW HB403 has a plated MAM of 1600 kg
Nissan Xtrail has a GVW of about 2200 kg - need exact model to get definitive
That a total MAM of 3800 kg so 300 too much

SOLUTION
Contact IW and for about £50 they will get the 403 down plated to 1300

As the HB403 is about 770 empty then it can take a load of 530 kg (1300-770=530) which if you have a horse about 500 kg could end up being very close on being legal

This has been calculated on the assumption that the Xtrail GVW is 2200

A Bateson Derby down plated would give about 630 payload for trailer because it is about 100 kg lighter empty than the 403


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## rising_promise (9 September 2014)

Hi Rog, looking into buying a 4x4 and trailer. I like the Kia Sorento and would want an Equitrek Space Treka. I think the stats are as follows:

1- B + E (well I don't yet but will have to take my test!)
2- 2000
3-2510
4- 3500 (according to Autorader?!)
5- I can't find this, or don't know what it means?!
6) 1120

Can you let me know if this would be OK. I would wan to tow my 500kg horse and possibly another of a similar weight

Thank you


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## ROG (9 September 2014)

rising_promise said:



			Hi Rog, looking into buying a 4x4 and trailer. I like the Kia Sorento and would want an Equitrek Space Treka. I think the stats are as follows:

1- B + E (well I don't yet but will have to take my test!)
2- 2000
3-2510
4- 3500 (according to Autorader?!)
5- I can't find this, or don't know what it means?! = 2500 kg
6) 1120

Can you let me know if this would be OK. I would wan to tow my 500kg horse and possibly another of a similar weight

Thank you
		
Click to expand...

This trekka? = http://www.equi-trek.com/uk/horse-trailers/space-treka-m/info

with B+E you can load 1370 into the trailer in that link 2500-1130=1370 and as the towing capacity is 3500 then the 2500 is the limit as its the lower figure


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## rising_promise (10 September 2014)

ROG said:



			This trekka? = http://www.equi-trek.com/uk/horse-trailers/space-treka-m/info

with B+E you can load 1370 into the trailer in that link 2500-1130=1370 and as the towing capacity is 3500 then the 2500 is the limit as its the lower figure
		
Click to expand...

Thank you. Yes, that's the trailer.

So that's OK then as a combo?  Just got to take (and pass!) my trailer test now!

I took my C1 a while ago as have been driving a 7.5t but have now decided a 4x4 and trailer might be the better option.


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## ROG (10 September 2014)

rising_promise said:



			So that's OK then as a combo? 

Click to expand...

YES


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## rising_promise (10 September 2014)

Thanks very much for taking the time to help Rog, hugely appreciated


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## tobiano1984 (11 September 2014)

Hi ROG,

I've just bought a new trailer and will be taking my B+E licence soon and getting a 4x4, but in the meantime I wondered if it's worth downplating it so I can tow 1 horse:

1 - B Licence
2 - 1535kg (Audi A4 Avant, 1.9TDI diesel)
3 - 2010kg
4 - 1800kg on gradient 8% and under, 1600kg on 12% and under
5 - 2300kg (Bateson Deauville)
6 - 860kg

Thanks!


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## ROG (11 September 2014)

tobiano1984 said:



			Hi ROG,

I've just bought a new trailer and will be taking my B+E licence soon and getting a 4x4, but in the meantime I wondered if it's worth downplating it so I can tow 1 horse:

1 - B Licence
2 - 1535kg (Audi A4 Avant, 1.9TDI diesel)
3 - 2010kg
4 - 1800kg on gradient 8% and under, 1600kg on 12% and under
5 - 2300kg (Bateson Deauville)
6 - 860kg

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

Down plating from 2300 to 1490 will leave a trailer payload of 630 kg

You can then up plate it again when you get B+E

Contact Bateson on 0161 4260 500 and send them the 2300 plate off the trailer with £10
On receipt they will make up the new 1490 plate and send it to you to fix onto the trailer

They may only give you a 1400 or 1450 option for the plate but both are ok (just with 1400) for a 500 kg horse


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## DJ (13 September 2014)

Hey ROG ... I`m hoping you can help me. I have an old Rice Richardson trailer, not that it resembles 1 anymore, as it`s been stripped back to the chassis and frame and rebuilt as it was wood planks and had rotted out. It never had a plate on it to begin with, and I didn`t know it needed one, but obviously I now know they do ... and now it`s nearly finished being refurbed I want to order one.

Question is, what do I need on it? .... these are the tyres that are on it (there`s 4 of them):








We did try and get some of the info from Richardsons at York but they have gone bankrupt. 

Thanks in advance


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## ROG (13 September 2014)

DCJACE said:



			Hey ROG ... I`m hoping you can help me. I have an old Rice Richardson trailer, not that it resembles 1 anymore, as it`s been stripped back to the chassis and frame and rebuilt as it was wood planks and had rotted out. It never had a plate on it to begin with, and I didn`t know it needed one, but obviously I now know they do ... and now it`s nearly finished being refurbed I want to order one.

Question is, what do I need on it? .... these are the tyres that are on it (there`s 4 of them):








We did try and get some of the info from Richardsons at York but they have gone bankrupt. 

Thanks in advance
		
Click to expand...

What is the total of all the tyre load ratings? = http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating

ONLY the manufacturer can make a legal plate for a trailer so its never going to have one now and the tyre load ratings total will be its MAM to a max of 3500 kg


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## DJ (13 September 2014)

ROG said:



			What is the total of all the tyre load ratings? = http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating

ONLY the manufacturer can make a legal plate for a trailer so its never going to have one now and the tyre load ratings total will be its MAM to a max of 3500 kg
		
Click to expand...

I don`t know what the load ratings are now as i`m at home but will try and get them tomorrow. As Richardsons are no more, and it doesn`t have one, and you say it`s never going to have one what does that mean? That I have to scrap it after just refurbing it?


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## ROG (14 September 2014)

DCJACE said:



			I don`t know what the load ratings are now as i`m at home but will try and get them tomorrow. As Richardsons are no more, and it doesn`t have one, and you say it`s never going to have one what does that mean? That I have to scrap it after just refurbing it?
		
Click to expand...

You can use it legally with no plate - the tyre load rating total is the MAM with a max ceiling limit of 3500 should they total more than 3500


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## DJ (14 September 2014)

ROG said:



			You can use it legally with no plate - the tyre load rating total is the MAM with a max ceiling limit of 3500 should they total more than 3500
		
Click to expand...

Ah ok, sorry, I thought it was illegal to use a trailer with out a plate on it. Thank you again .... **bows down to the oracle**


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## ROG (15 September 2014)

Cheshire Chestnut said:



			Sorry to hijack the thread but I need ROG's help please!! 

How about a vehicle that weighs 1422kg, a horse that weighs 500kg and a trailer that weighs 715kg?

Would that be allowed on a B only licence?
		
Click to expand...

What is GVW of vehicle? - found on a plate usually hidden under bonnet or in a door frame - also listed as max permissable mass on V5 keepers form

What is plated MAM of trailer? - largest figure on the silver weight plate usually found on the A frame between main trailer and tow hitch

Failing that - give me exact model of vehicle and trailer


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## Cheshire Chestnut (15 September 2014)

ROG said:



			What is GVW of vehicle? - found on a plate usually hidden under bonnet or in a door frame - also listed as max permissable mass on V5 keepers form

What is plated MAM of trailer? - largest figure on the silver weight plate usually found on the A frame between main trailer and tow hitch

Failing that - give me exact model of vehicle and trailer
		
Click to expand...


Thank you. I'm not sure on the numbers but this is the car/trailer:
http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/111679019/cheval-liberte-1003xl.html - the same model as this

VW Golf TDI 2.0 56 plate.

Horse is a 14:2h Welsh D and weighs no more than 500kg

Please don't be cross if it's not suitable to pull a trailer - I can always change cars  

Thank you.


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## ROG (15 September 2014)

Cheshire Chestnut said:



			Thank you. I'm not sure on the numbers but this is the car/trailer:
http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/111679019/cheval-liberte-1003xl.html - the same model as this

VW Golf TDI 2.0 56 plate.

Horse is a 14:2h Welsh D and weighs no more than 500kg

Please don't be cross if it's not suitable to pull a trailer - I can always change cars  

Thank you.
		
Click to expand...

This trailer? = http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1024
Max gross weight (MAM) 1400 kg  
Unlaiden weight (EMPTY) 655 kg
Max trailer payload 745 kg

This car? =  http://www.usedcarexpert.co.uk/cars/volkswagen/golf/specs-stats/dimensions/
Volkswagen Golf GT 2.0 TDI 3dr + 5dr 
Gross Weight = 1920 Kg
Towing Limit = 1500 Kg

1920+1400=3320 so well under the 3500 limit for B towing 

If those are the correct one then you are 100% legal to tow on a B licence = YIPPEE


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## Cheshire Chestnut (15 September 2014)

ROG said:



			This trailer? = http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1024
Max gross weight (MAM) 1400 kg  
Unlaiden weight (EMPTY) 655 kg
Max trailer payload 745 kg

This car? =  http://www.usedcarexpert.co.uk/cars/volkswagen/golf/specs-stats/dimensions/
Volkswagen Golf GT 2.0 TDI 3dr + 5dr 
Gross Weight = 1920 Kg
Towing Limit = 1500 Kg

1920+1400=3320 so well under the 3500 limit for B towing 

If those are the correct one then you are 100% legal to tow on a B licence = YIPPEE
		
Click to expand...

Yes those are the ones!! The trailer isn't a brand new one but it's about 6 years old, still the same weight as the one on this link. 

Yipeee! Thank you  Need to get a tow bar fitted now....


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## Rides (19 September 2014)

ROG said:



			Licences go on plated weights not actual weights

The DVLA has missed out the word MAM as usual !

Put simply - to tow a trailer over 750 kg plated MAM on a B licence the one extra rule on top of all the usual towing rules is that the vehicle plated GVW added to the trailer plated MAM must not total more than 3500 kg

GVW MAM MTPLM all mean the same thing = the maximum permitted legal weight something can be when fully loaded
		
Click to expand...


Hi thanks for your response, its very confusing! so, if i have a car that weighs 1525kg ( i think the GVW is around 2100 but cant find official source?) , a trailer weighing 1ton + a horse of 600kg...  not allowed?


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## ROG (19 September 2014)

Rides said:



			Hi thanks for your response, its very confusing! so, if i have a car that weighs 1525kg ( i think the GVW is around 2100 but cant find official source?) , a trailer weighing 1ton + a horse of 600kg...  not allowed?
		
Click to expand...

It might be but unless you have the plated GVW of the vehicle and the plated MAM of the trailer so you can add them together then you will never be certain you are legal

PS - if you have a vehicle GVW of 2100 and a trailer plated at 1600 MAM (for 1000 empty trailer and 600 kg horse it would need to be at least that) then that total is at least 3700 so over the 3500 max

Ignore the empty weight of the vehicle and trailer as they have nothing to do with this


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## ROG (19 September 2014)

Rides said:



			Hi thanks for your response, its very confusing! so, if i have a car that weighs 1525kg ( i think the GVW is around 2100 but cant find official source?) , a trailer weighing 1ton + a horse of 600kg...  not allowed?
		
Click to expand...

What exact model of car do you have because I will find its specs on the internet

Better still - usually under the bonnet or hidden in a door frame will be the plate for the vehicle and the GVW is the top of the 4 figures listed

Find that GVW on the plate then deduct that figure from 3500
Lets say its 2100 GVW so 3500-2100=1400
That 1400 will be the max that a trailer can be max plated at = the MAM

If the trailer is plated at 1400 and weighs 750 empty then it can take a load of 650 (1400-750=650)

If the car is 1550 empty and has a GVW of 2100 then it can take a load of 550 (2100-1550=550)


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## Always-Riding (20 September 2014)

Question...

I haven't done my B+E test (yet) and can't quite afford to until the summer. I have driven with a horse trailer with a supervisor but that person is no longer available.. well it was my Dad, who now lives 3 hours away... 

Anyway, I've read a few posts and it's possible to tow a single trailer with a light 4x4/car. Is this right? 
If so, could you give me an example of vehicle?


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## ROG (20 September 2014)

Always-Riding said:



			I've read a few posts and it's possible to tow a single trailer with a light 4x4/car. Is this right? 
If so, could you give me an example of vehicle?
		
Click to expand...

Before we start let me tell you of the one extra rule on top of all the usual towing rules when towing a trailer over 750 kg plated MAM on a B licence .....
..... the vehicle GVW added to the trailer plated MAM must not total more than 3500 kg



Ideas for a B licence towing set up

Skoda Octavia  4x4 1.6 diesel
GVW 1998 kg
Towing capacity 2000 kg

Bateson Derby trailer
Empty 675 kg
MAM 1700 but down plated to 1500*

* Contact Bateson on 0161 4260 500 and send them the 1700 plate off the trailer with £10
On receipt they will make up the new 1500 plate and send it to you to fix onto the trailer

The trailer can be loaded with 825 kg

The vehicle makes for a reasonably economical commuting car

Another more &#8216;beefy&#8217; 4X4 is the Suzuki Grand Vitara
GVW 2190 kg
Towing capacity 2000

Using the same Bateson Derby trailer down plated to 1300 would leave a trailer payload of 625 kg

These links may help
http://carleasingmadesimple.com/bus...octavia-diesel-estate_3/60610/technical-data/
http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1014
http://www.batesontrailers.com/contact-us/
http://carleasingmadesimple.com/bus...-vitara-diesel-estate_2/58681/technical-data/


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## ROG (20 September 2014)

*Always-Riding* what vehicle and trailer do you have now?


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## DragonSlayer (20 September 2014)

Not really a towing question, more a general driving question if I may be so bold ROG!

My son is 17 on Monday and he has his 1st driving lesson Wednesday (eeeeek!) 

We have bought him a little 1 litre Polo for his birthday and the question we need to know is if we insure it with him as a learner driver, can me and his dad sit with him with L plates on as we both have the pre-97 licence? If not, it will have to wait until he passes his test but I feel the more experience he gets driving can only be a good thing!

Cheers.


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## ROG (20 September 2014)

DragonSlayer said:



			Not really a towing question, more a general driving question if I may be so bold ROG!

My son is 17 on Monday and he has his 1st driving lesson Wednesday (eeeeek!) 

We have bought him a little 1 litre Polo for his birthday and the question we need to know is if we insure it with him as a learner driver, can me and his dad sit with him with L plates on as we both have the pre-97 licence? If not, it will have to wait until he passes his test but I feel the more experience he gets driving can only be a good thing!

Cheers. 

Click to expand...

Yes you both can supervise him but I strongly recommend you talk to his driving instructor before you do that so you are all on the same page - its well worth paying his driving instructor for that talk time if needs be

supervising drivers do not have to be insured unless they are going to actually drive the car but its prudent to do so just in case

If the car is insured only in sons name then see if adding parents name to it will bring the cost down

If supervising drivers already have fully comp on their own insurance - not just as a named driver on that insurance - and the policy allows it then they can drive another car on third party only with owners permission


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## DragonSlayer (21 September 2014)

Great, just what I wanted to hear! Yes, the instructor we are using knows we want to let him drive his car with his L plates and he's had the conversation with us about that, I did say I'll wait until he's had a few weeks of lessons before he's taking one of us out!


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## EmmaB (25 September 2014)

Hi ROG I'm looking to tow a pony in a downplated trailer for towing on the b licence but have a question about which is the best car! 

I have seen a 2.2l nissan xtrail which weighs 2050kg, and a 2l mondeo estate which weighs 2165kg. I would have thought the xtrail would be better to tow with but the mondeo weighs more so would that be better? Or is engine size more important than weight? Those are the gvw according to auto trader and both are diesel. Thanks!


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## ROG (25 September 2014)

EmmaB said:



			Hi ROG I'm looking to tow a pony in a downplated trailer for towing on the b licence but have a question about which is the best car! 

I have seen a 2.2l nissan xtrail which weighs 2050kg, and a 2l mondeo estate which weighs 2165kg. I would have thought the xtrail would be better to tow with but the mondeo weighs more so would that be better? Or is engine size more important than weight? Those are the gvw according to auto trader and both are diesel. Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

I have no idea about the performances of towing vehicles - I only deal with legal licencing and weight issues

What is the trailer?

How heavy is the pony?


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## [59668] (6 October 2014)

Hi ROG!

I've sold my lorry and am replacing with a trailer/car combo.  Will be doing my B+E.

I need the car to be my daily runaround also.  So not too thirsty.  Also have a budget of 5k.  I'm thinking Freelander td4, but some people seem to think they are terrible.

Would be towing an ifor 506, with one 14.2 pony.

Any thoughts?  Or alternative cars?

Thanks!


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## ROG (6 October 2014)

[59668] said:



			Hi ROG!

I've sold my lorry and am replacing with a trailer/car combo.  Will be doing my B+E.

I need the car to be my daily runaround also.  So not too thirsty.  Also have a budget of 5k.  I'm thinking Freelander td4, but some people seem to think they are terrible.

Would be towing an ifor 506, with one 14.2 pony.

Any thoughts?  Or alternative cars?

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

I have no knowledge of vehicles which are good or bad - I deal more in legalities

The last link in my signature below may help a little


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## billylula (7 October 2014)

Hi Rog - can you tell me if it is possible to tow a pony (approx 400kg) in a single pony trailer ( Unladen weight is approx 750 kg) with a Fiat Multipla (Sept 2003)?? 

I dont have my B and E licence.

We already have a Jeep Grand Cherokee which tows our 510 very well but we are about to get another pony (3 altogether) and having no luck finding a triple trailer. So I was thinking if I could tow with my multipla we could do it that way. Husband refusign to get a lorry as we have no room to park it!!


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## ROG (7 October 2014)

billylula said:



			Hi Rog - can you tell me if it is possible to tow a pony (approx 400kg) in a single pony trailer ( Unladen weight is approx 750 kg) with a Fiat Multipla (Sept 2003)?? 

I dont have my B and E licence.

We already have a Jeep Grand Cherokee which tows our 510 very well but we are about to get another pony (3 altogether) and having no luck finding a triple trailer. So I was thinking if I could tow with my multipla we could do it that way. Husband refusign to get a lorry as we have no room to park it!!
		
Click to expand...

This multipla? = http://www.carhouse2000.co.uk/used-cars/fiat-multipla-jtd-115-sx-5dr-willenhall-201409197539785
GVW 2050
Towing capacity 1300

Assuming its a HB401/403 ???? then
empty 780
Original MAM 1600
Would need down plating via call to IW to say 1400 = cost about £50

If it was down plated to 1400 then the 1300 towing limit still applies so 1300 minus 780 = 520 kg that can be loaded into the trailer 
520 is well enough for a 400 pony


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## billylula (9 October 2014)

Thank you ROG that is great.


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## billylula (9 October 2014)

If I don't downplate it, will I be driving illegally?


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## billylula (9 October 2014)

AND (sorry) could I pull it without a B and E licence?


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## ROG (9 October 2014)

billylula said:



			If I don't downplate it, will I be driving illegally?
		
Click to expand...

YES




billylula said:



			AND (sorry) could I pull it without a B and E licence?
		
Click to expand...

Under Learner rules = yes

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## billylula (10 October 2014)

What do I need to pass to drive a 7.5 tonne horsebox?


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## ROG (10 October 2014)

billylula said:



			What do I need to pass to drive a 7.5 tonne horsebox?
		
Click to expand...

LGV C1 see LGV CLINIC link in my signature below


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## Orchardbeck (20 October 2014)

Has anyone towed with a Saab 9-3 (2l engine, automatic petrol) and an ifor Williams 506 (or 403) with just one pony, (400kg max) Is it even possible? And if so, possible on a B licence?


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## ROG (20 October 2014)

Orchardbeck said:



			Has anyone towed with a Saab 9-3 (2l engine, automatic petrol) and an ifor Williams 506 (or 403) with just one pony, (400kg max) Is it even possible? And if so, possible on a B licence?
		
Click to expand...

There are so many models for the SAAB so please can you identify your model from this link = http://www.usedcarexpert.co.uk/cars/saab/9-3/specs-stats/dimensions/ = I can then help you

I will do a B licence example assuming its one of the models with these specs .....
GVW 2030
Towing capacity 1400

Using a 403 down plated from 1600 to 1400 by contacting IW would leave just over 600 kg for the trailer load/horse


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## Orchardbeck (22 October 2014)

Thanks ROG, it is actually a 2004 1.9 (not 2l) TID vector sport model 2004 - same as the 2006 one second from the bottom in your link. 

I already have a HB 506, is it generally not possible to get them within the weight limit for b licence towing once down plated?


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## ROG (22 October 2014)

Orchardbeck said:



			Thanks ROG, it is actually a 2004 1.9 (not 2l) TID vector sport model 2004 - same as the 2006 one second from the bottom in your link. 

I already have a HB 506, is it generally not possible to get them within the weight limit for b licence towing once down plated?
		
Click to expand...

I think you mean this model - 
Saab 9-3 Vector Sport 1.9 TiD 180 2dr 1.9
Gross Weight = 2120 Kg
Towing Limit = 1600 Kg

The HB506 is - 
Empty 920
MAM 2600

Horse 400

If you could get IW to down plate the trailer to 1380 then that would leave 460 for the horse plus anything else you put in the trailer with it (1380-920=460) and would conform to the B licence towing law of 3500 (2120+1380=3500)


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## Orchardbeck (22 October 2014)

Thanks ROG, very interesting. So it would be worthwhile looking out for a single 403 - it would be tight even with the 506 downplated. 

Apologies for taking your time - I don't suppose you would be able to tell me the weight allowance of this vehicle - we are looking in to changing to an estate vehicle

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...m/14000/price-to/25000/page/1/usedcars?tech=1


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## ROG (22 October 2014)

Orchardbeck said:



			Thanks ROG, very interesting. So it would be worthwhile looking out for a single 403 - it would be tight even with the 506 downplated. 

Apologies for taking your time - I don't suppose you would be able to tell me the weight allowance of this vehicle - we are looking in to changing to an estate vehicle

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...m/14000/price-to/25000/page/1/usedcars?tech=1

Click to expand...

A HB403 or 401 would be better

I assume its the top one in this list = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/audi/a4-allroad/gross-vehicle-weight/
GVW 2200
Towing capacity 1970

If it is that model then the max trailer plated MAM weight would be 1300 for B towing

The HB403 is max 800 empty so that would leave at least 500 for the trailer load


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## rubydog (24 October 2014)

Hi rog, 
Hope your well  

Just purchased a 403 ifor Williams trailer, intending on towing it with a jeep compass 2.2 on a b licence. 

Car has gvw of 2075, kerb weight of 1605 and capacity to tow max of 2000. 

Horse is 500kg 

From my calculations I have worked out I will need to get the trailer down plated to 1400kg how easy is to do this and can you take it to local dealership or does it have to go to the manufacturer? 

Thanks


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## ROG (25 October 2014)

rubydog said:



			Hi rog, 
Hope your well  

Just purchased a 403 ifor Williams trailer, intending on towing it with a jeep compass 2.2 on a b licence. 

Car has gvw of 2075, kerb weight of 1605 and capacity to tow max of 2000. 

Horse is 500kg 

From my calculations I have worked out I will need to get the trailer down plated to 1400kg how easy is to do this and can you take it to local dealership or does it have to go to the manufacturer? 

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Your figures are spot on

To get the 403 down plated from 1600 to 1400 you need to contact IW on 01490 412626 who now charge about £50


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## ROG (25 October 2014)

ROG said:



			To get the 403 down plated from 1600 to 1400 you need to contact IW on 01490 412626 who now charge about £50
		
Click to expand...

IW will sort this out for you and it usually means you go to one of their local dealers to have the plate physically changed but if they will send you the new plate by post then there is nothing to stop a competent person from changing the plate themselves

Bateson trailers only charge a £10 for doing the plate change yourself - same thing is done - you contact them then they update records and send trailer owner the new plate


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## rubydog (25 October 2014)

Fab thanks Rog - I rang them today but they where shut so I will have to wait until Monday.


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## sessierose (29 October 2014)

Hi, I've had a look through a few pages but can't find the combo I'm looking for. I'm trying to find out if a short wheel base (04 plate) Defender 90 + an Ifor Williams single horse trailer down plated to 1400 would be legal to tow on a B license? I'm looking to buy one that's up for sale so any help ASAP would be greatly appreciated!


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## ROG (29 October 2014)

sessierose said:



			Hi, I've had a look through a few pages but can't find the combo I'm looking for. I'm trying to find out if a short wheel base (04 plate) Defender 90 + an Ifor Williams single horse trailer down plated to 1400 would be legal to tow on a B license? I'm looking to buy one that's up for sale so any help ASAP would be greatly appreciated!
		
Click to expand...

From the research I just did it seems that the GVW is 2400 so only a trailer plated at 1100 will be possible

In case I have got hold of the wrong GVW please find the weight plate in the defender which is usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame and post the top figure of the four listed

The V5 registered keepers doc will usually have the GVW listed as max permissable gross weight


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## sessierose (29 October 2014)

Thanks for your help, I thought that might be the case. I'll try and have a look at the vehicle and see.


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## ROG (29 October 2014)

lubuzz said:



			So I've just checked out the gov.uk website and read the following... "If you passed your test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B car licence you can: tow a trailer over 750 mam as long as the combined weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500 kg".

My trailer is 900, my car is 1500 and my horse is 500... = 2,900 kg. so am I legal to tow?!

I always thought as I hadn't passed my test before 1997 I couldn't but it looks like an updated law in jan 2013 may have over rules this? Just want to check before I do though and even then I probably won't tow as I'm too scared! 

Thank you &#9786;&#65039;
		
Click to expand...

That Gov statement has yet again missed out the word - MAM

It has always been that since 01/01/1997 that the B towing law is that the plated GVW (MAM) of the vehicle added to the plated MAM of the trailer cannot total more than 3500 kg

All the 19/01/2013 EU directive did was to get rid of the bit which said that the plated MAM of the trailer cannot be more than the empty weight of the towing vehicle and that was a retrospective rule


NEVER use actual weight for the 3500 rule because licencing laws go on plated weights


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## ROG (2 November 2014)

This DVLA PDF might be useful for the explanation of driving licences etc especially the bottom of page 7 as well as pages 8, 9 & 10
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208103/ins57p.pdf


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## rubydog (13 November 2014)

Hi, 

Just an update for others that are wanting an iforwilliams trailer down plating - they charge £48 for a new plate and it takes a week. They post the new plate out to you - Now I have to work out how to get the old one off and the new one on as I think it has been put on by a rivet gun and not screws!!


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## ROG (13 November 2014)

rubydog said:



			Hi, 

Just an update for others that are wanting an iforwilliams trailer down plating - they charge £48 for a new plate and it takes a week. They post the new plate out to you - Now I have to work out how to get the old one off and the new one on as I think it has been put on by a rivet gun and not screws!!
		
Click to expand...

Bateson = same system but only cost £10


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## Clannad48 (16 November 2014)

ROG  I am in a total quandry - I have currently a Jeep Cherokee 2.8 CRD which is a total towing machine with a towing capacity of 3300kg  However, following the recent issues surrounding a recall notice that has been issued by VOSA which currently will prevent using the car for towing I am looking at cutting my losses and considering a Kia Sorrento - now I have looked at the towing capabilities and would like your opinion as to whether it is suitable. I have an Ifor Williams 505 and a 17hh DWB who weighs about 650kg.  I have a pre 1975 license.


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## ROG (16 November 2014)

Clannad48 said:



			ROG  I am in a total quandry - I have currently a Jeep Cherokee 2.8 CRD which is a total towing machine with a towing capacity of 3300kg  However, following the recent issues surrounding a recall notice that has been issued by VOSA which currently will prevent using the car for towing I am looking at cutting my losses and considering a Kia Sorrento - now I have looked at the towing capabilities and would like your opinion as to whether it is suitable. I have an Ifor Williams 505 and a 17hh DWB who weighs about 650kg.  I have a pre 1975 license.
		
Click to expand...

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/kia/sorento/towing-weight-limit/

B+E licence so thats ok

I think the 505 is max 1000 empty so looking at total weight of under 2000 which means any of the models in that link should be able to cope easily


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## Clannad48 (16 November 2014)

Thanks ROG, I thought it would be ok but wanted to check. I'm really disappointed with Jeep UK at the moment - I could end up with a towing machine that I can't use for towing!!


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## ROG (17 November 2014)

Xtra said:



			hi  a friend is looking to tow a double trailer (one horse) with a ford focus.  Reading up on it this doesnt look safe.  Will they be ok with just one horse?
		
Click to expand...

Will need to know exact model of car as there are so many variations

Will need to know what trailer it is

Will need to know if they have B+E licence

Will need to know weight of horse


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## LadyRascasse (19 November 2014)

Hi ROG looking to tow a 400kg horse with a 06 Fiat Scudo 2.0 JDT. I have B+E entitlement (pre 1997 license) What trailer could I legally use  A company local to me rents out a ifor 510 but not sure if I would be legal or safe using this? Thank you for your time


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## ROG (19 November 2014)

LadyRascasse said:



			Hi ROG looking to tow a 400kg horse with a 06 Fiat Scudo 2.0 JDT. I have B+E entitlement (pre 1997 license) What trailer could I legally use  A company local to me rents out a ifor 510 but not sure if I would be legal or safe using this? Thank you for your time 

Click to expand...

According to my internet research the max towing capacity of this van is 1300 kg
To make sure I have the correct figure please find the weight plate on the vehicle which is usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame and let me know the top two figures from the 4 listed or look on the V5 keepers form and post what is states as max towing weight if that is listed

Assuming 1300 is correct then with a 400 horse it leaves 900 absolute max for the weight of an empty trailer

The 510 is over 900

I would opt for something like a 401 or 403 which are just under 800 empty


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## LadyRascasse (19 November 2014)

Thank you, the list on the door frame says 

2330kg
3630kg
1 - 1230kg
2 - 1300kg


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## ROG (19 November 2014)

LadyRascasse said:



			Thank you, the list on the door frame says 

2330kg
3630kg
1 - 1230kg
2 - 1300kg
		
Click to expand...

3630 minus 2330 = 1300 so the 1300 max towing capacity is correct - thanks for confirming that

1300 is the max actual weight that can be towed behind your vehicle


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## joolie (23 November 2014)

Hi

Just want to check I've got my figures right (on a B license):

1660 unladen weight
2160 GVW
2000 tow capacity
Looking to tow an Ifor 401 assume it will need to be downplated.

Is this legal? Thanks


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## ROG (23 November 2014)

joolie said:



			Hi

Just want to check I've got my figures right (on a B license):

1660 unladen weight
2160 GVW
2000 tow capacity
Looking to tow an Ifor 401 assume it will need to be downplated.

Is this legal? Thanks 

Click to expand...

401 will need to be down plated to 1340 or lower
Contact IW and send them the plate from the trailer as well as £48 - they send you new plate to put on trailer

401 is about 780 empty

What weight do you need to put in the trailer?


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## joolie (23 November 2014)

Thanks ROG!

Oops forgot to say will be to tow one 14.2 pony - weight no more than 500kgs.


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## ROG (23 November 2014)

joolie said:



			Thanks ROG!

Oops forgot to say will be to tow one 14.2 pony - weight no more than 500kgs.
		
Click to expand...

If 401 is down plated to say 1300 then that only leaves 520 max for the trailer payload which is cutting it a bit fine so I hope you can get IW to plate it at 1340 for a bit of wiggle room


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## joolie (23 November 2014)

Brill thanks. Pony is 450kg so shouldn't be a problem - just thought best to overestimate everything just in case!


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## ROG (23 November 2014)

joolie said:



			Brill thanks. Pony is 450kg so shouldn't be a problem - just thought best to overestimate everything just in case! 

Click to expand...

Good idea - all seems ok to me


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## ROG (30 November 2014)

dollyanna said:



			Is it legal to tow a trailer with a MGW of 2340kg with a vehicle that has a kerb weight of 1770kg? I will actually only be towing a total of 1400kg (905 unladen weight plus 500kg pony) which I believe is acceptable, but concerned the trailer I can hire is just too big even if it isn't filled.

If this is the case can anyone direct me to an official website that explains this? All I can find is the MVMs, 85% rule etc. and what each license can tow.
		
Click to expand...




dollyanna said:



			The license isn't a problem, driver is pre-97.

Just looked up my vehicle again, kerb weight is 1770kg, gross weight is 2260kg, missed that before, does that now mean I'm ok? Or because the driver is ok up to 8.25t does it not matter anyway if the MGW of the trailer is too high if the vehicle isn't going to tow the maximum anyway? 

Basically I read in a couple of places that the trailer would have to either be a lower MGW than the vehicle or be downplated accordingly, is this true and if so can you point me to an official body who can confirm this for definite?
		
Click to expand...

Driver has a B+E due to passing car test before 1997

The laws are these - 
The vehicle 2260 GVW must not be exceeded = that is the max actual weight the vehicle can be when fully loaded
The trailer 2340 MAM must not be exceeded = that is the max actual weight the trailer can be when fully loaded
The vehicle will have a max towing capacity = that is the max actual weight which can be towed

You have not listed the max towing capacity so I will make one up ...... 2000

As the lower figure between 2000 and 2340 is 2000 then the max actual weight which the trailer and it load can weigh is 2000

The 85% ADVICE not rule is for CARAVANS ONLY

Kerb weight has nothing to do with it


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## Busy bear (1 December 2014)

Hi hoping you may be able to help, 

I looking to buy a bateson trailer either a deauville or a derby but want to tow initially on a b licence. We have one 12hh pony approx 300kg possible tow vechicles would be a 2009 mondeo estate tdi or vw Passat 2 litre diesel 06 model. I understand down plating is an option and in truth would prefer the deauville but am unsure if this as a viable option. Thank you in advance


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## ROG (1 December 2014)

Busy bear said:



			Hi hoping you may be able to help, 

I looking to buy a bateson trailer either a deauville or a derby but want to tow initially on a b licence. We have one 12hh pony approx 300kg possible tow vechicles would be a 2009 mondeo estate tdi or vw Passat 2 litre diesel 06 model. I understand down plating is an option and in truth would prefer the deauville but am unsure if this as a viable option. Thank you in advance
		
Click to expand...

What is the GVW listed on those vehicles?
A weight plate will be on each car usually hidden under the bonnet on in a door frame
Alternatively look on the V5 keeper forms and see what it says under max permissible mass

http://www.batesontrailers.com/product/horse-trailers/deauville-horse-trailers/
Empty weight is 860
MAM is 2300 but can be down plated by contacting Bateson who will need the old plate and a tenner - they send you a new plate to put on

ASSUMING the GVW on a car is say 2200 then the trailer would need to be down plated to 1300 making the max for B towing of 3500 (2200+1300=3500) 

If it was at 1300 then that leaves 440 for the trailer load/pony (1300-860=440)


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## ROG (1 December 2014)

To add - if you are looking at the weight plate please give me the top two figures


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## Moobou (2 December 2014)

1 - B licence
2 - 1595 = unladen/empty weight
3 - 2190 = fully loaded weight
4 - 2000 = max towing weight
5 &#8211; 1300 (down plated from 1700) = max trailer weight when loaded
6 - 675 = trailer weight when empty


I think that's all right for a Bateson Derby/ Rav4 combo - would I be legal on a b license?


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## ROG (2 December 2014)

Moobou said:



			1 - B licence
2 - 1595 = unladen/empty weight
3 - 2190 = fully loaded weight
4 - 2000 = max towing weight
5 &#8211; 1300 (down plated from 1700) = max trailer weight when loaded
6 - 675 = trailer weight when empty


I think that's all right for a Bateson Derby/ Rav4 combo - would I be legal on a b license?
		
Click to expand...

YES = big smiles

2190+1300=3490 (max is 3500 for B towing)

Max load for trailer = 625 (1300-675=625)

Number 2 is no longer necessary as the law changed on needing that info on 19/01/2013


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## Moobou (2 December 2014)

ROG said:



			YES = big smiles

2190+1300=3490 (max is 3500 for B towing)

Max load for trailer = 625 (1300-675=625)

Number 2 is no longer necessary as the law changed on needing that info on 19/01/2013
		
Click to expand...

Excellent.....so if I had a B+E licensee sat next to me and L plates would I be able to tow 1700kg?


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## ROG (2 December 2014)

Moobou said:



			Excellent.....so if I had a B+E licensee sat next to me and L plates would I be able to tow 1700kg?
		
Click to expand...

Yes

You could tow up to 2000 with that vehicle and a trailer plated at 2000 or higher under B+E learner rules

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## Moobou (3 December 2014)

ROG said:



			Yes

You could tow up to 2000 with that vehicle and a trailer plated at 2000 or higher under B+E learner rules

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving
		
Click to expand...

Great ROG thanks for the info....now I just need to find a preloved Derby for sale = hen's teeth


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## castella (3 December 2014)

Hi, I currently tow a bateson derby with a lightweight 15hh in with my jeep cherokee but due to the safety recall Im having to replace it. I spoke to bateson who said the trailer weighs 675kg so I could get it downplated to 1200kg to carry my one lightweight mare. I have been looking at smaller vehicles with a smaller running cost and looked at nissan juke's, quite a few of the models have a braked towing capacity of 1250kg so would I be legal to tow with this ? I have grandad rights so no problem with the licence. Thank you !


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## ROG (3 December 2014)

castella said:



			Hi, I currently tow a bateson derby with a lightweight 15hh in with my jeep cherokee but due to the safety recall Im having to replace it. I spoke to bateson who said the trailer weighs 675kg so I could get it downplated to 1200kg to carry my one lightweight mare. I have been looking at smaller vehicles with a smaller running cost and looked at nissan juke's, quite a few of the models have a braked towing capacity of 1250kg so would I be legal to tow with this ? I have grandad rights so no problem with the licence. Thank you !
		
Click to expand...

No need to down plate at all if you have a pre 1997 car test pass which gives you a free B+E licence

The only reason to down plate is if you need to conform to the B licence towing rules - or are using it commercially and want to keep out of operator and tacho regs

There is no law or rule which states that the plated MAM of a trailer must fit into the towing capacity of the towing vehicle - plenty of internet myths though!

If you have a towing capacity of 1200 and the trailer which weighs 675 empty but is plated at 1700 then the max you can load into the trailer is 525 (675 + 525 = 1200)


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## castella (4 December 2014)

Wonderful thank you, I was worried the car would be too small to tow with but it looks like with a lightweight trailer and my lightweight mare I can still tow safely without having to have such a huge car with high running costs


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## ROG (4 December 2014)

castella said:



			Wonderful thank you, I was worried the car would be too small to tow with but it looks like with a lightweight trailer and my lightweight mare I can still tow safely without having to have such a huge car with high running costs  

Click to expand...

You are welcome

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/nissan/juke/gross-vehicle-weight/
The max GVW of the Juke is 1880 so if you ever needed it to be towed by a B licence holder (not under B+E provisional learner rules) then the trailer would need down plating to a max of 1620

If the trailer was down plated to say 1600 for a tenner via contact with Bateson then it will not change what can be loaded into it


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## littlen (10 December 2014)

Hi ROG
Would this be a possible combination on a B lisence?

Horse 450kg.
Car kerb weight 1688kg
Gvw of car 2260kg

Single trailer at gross weight 1600kg and unlaiden 770kg.

If not are there any lighter trailers that this combo would work with?

Thanks!!


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## ROG (10 December 2014)

littlen said:



			Hi ROG
Would this be a possible combination on a B lisence?

Horse 450kg.
Car kerb weight 1688kg
Gvw of car 2260kg

Single trailer at gross weight 1600kg and unlaiden 770kg.

If not are there any lighter trailers that this combo would work with?

Thanks!!
		
Click to expand...

GVW 2260 leaves a max plated MAM for trailer of 1240 so 1600 is too high

One which will work is the Bateson Derby which is 700 max empty and down plated from 1700 to 1200 leaving just over 500 for the trailer load

To down plate with Bateson is easy - call them and send weight plate with a tenner - they send you a new one to put on it


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## littlen (10 December 2014)

Great thank you ROG!


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## Liane (10 December 2014)

As per my comment on the other thread ROG are you able to advise please? It is for a Kia Sorenta and a IW511

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE  (I have B+E)
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle  (1,891 min, 1,999 max)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle  (2510kg)
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle (Max Tow Weight(kg) Braked	2,500)
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres IW511 so 3500 I believe?
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer 1000kg


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## ROG (10 December 2014)

Liane said:



			As per my comment on the other thread ROG are you able to advise please? It is for a Kia Sorenta and a IW511

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE  (I have B+E)
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle  (1,891 min, 1,999 max)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle  (2510kg)
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle (Max Tow Weight(kg) Braked	2,500)
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres IW511 so 3500 I believe?
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer 1000kg
		
Click to expand...

HB511 is 2700 MAM and 1000 empty

You have a 2500 towing capacity

Max load for trailer is 1500 (2500 - 1000 = 1500)


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## Liane (10 December 2014)

so I can have horses weighing a combined total of 1500kg. And then this combination is ok? (sorry if I am being thick!)


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## ROG (10 December 2014)

Liane said:



			so I can have horses weighing a combined total of 1500kg. And then this combination is ok? (sorry if I am being thick!)
		
Click to expand...

Perfectly legal to put a total weight of 1500 into the trailer


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## Liane (10 December 2014)

Thank you


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## Cragrat (19 December 2014)

Sorry if this has been answered, couldn't find the right question to search.

If we get a Hilux with a towing capacity of 2256, and hitch to a 510 with 2 horses - combined total 2100kg,  I think that's ok? (Old fogey BE licence).

But can I then load water, tack, people etc into the hilux?  I am sure that could come to more than 156kg, but then I won't be towing them- they would act as balast against the trailer?

Thank you


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## ROG (19 December 2014)

Cragrat said:



			Sorry if this has been answered, couldn't find the right question to search.

If we get a Hilux with a towing capacity of 2256, and hitch to a 510 with 2 horses - combined total 2100kg,  I think that's ok? (Old fogey BE licence).

But can I then load water, tack, people etc into the hilux?  I am sure that could come to more than 156kg, but then I won't be towing them- they would act as balast against the trailer?

Thank you

Click to expand...

Anything that goes in the vehicle comes under the vehicle GVW
Anything that goes in the trailer comes under the trailer MAM and/or vehicle towing capacity

You are ok with that combo on your B+E licence

http://vanleasingmadesimple.com/van-leasing/toyota/hilux/max-towing-weight-braked/
I think you will find that 2800 is the max towing capacity for the hilux but the 510 MAM is going to be less than that so the max actual weight for trailer including its load is going to be the MAM of the 510


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## Cragrat (20 December 2014)

Thank you



ROG said:



http://vanleasingmadesimple.com/van-leasing/toyota/hilux/max-towing-weight-braked/
I think you will find that 2800 is the max towing capacity for the hilux but the 510 MAM is going to be less than that so the max actual weight for trailer including its load is going to be the MAM of the 510
		
Click to expand...

But this has confused me.  I used this site 
http://www.uktow.com/towing capacity.asp?make=Toyota&model1=Hilux 3.0 D-4D Double Cab

and it says 2256kg. Is it because we are unfortunately looking at an older model?  It's is the 3 litre 4 door invincible, but an 08 year model.

Either way, I think I should be ok, but obviously nicer/ safer to have a bit more spare capacity- will have to not let the horses put on weight

Thank you


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## ROG (20 December 2014)

Cragrat said:



			Thank you



But this has confused me.  I used this site 
http://www.uktow.com/towing capacity.asp?make=Toyota&model1=Hilux 3.0 D-4D Double Cab

and it says 2256kg. Is it because we are unfortunately looking at an older model?  It's is the 3 litre 4 door invincible, but an 08 year model.

Either way, I think I should be ok, but obviously nicer/ safer to have a bit more spare capacity- will have to not let the horses put on weight

Thank you
		
Click to expand...

To be certain look at the weight plate which is usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame
Deduct the top figure from the second figure and that is usually the towing capacity

Ignore bottom 2 of the 4 figures as they are the axle weights


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## Cragrat (20 December 2014)

Will make sure I check when we go to test drive one- thank you again.


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## ROG (27 December 2014)

Cragrat said:



			Will make sure I check when we go to test drive one- thank you again.
		
Click to expand...

Did you test drive and find the weights yet?


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## sidesaddlegirl (28 December 2014)

Hi Rog, 

We bought a new 2.0 litre diesel estate (well new to us), it comes on Wednesday and passed my driving test after 10 years of lessons in October, so now I have a B license. I want to get out towing this year or next to local shows so am looking for a single trailer, either the Ifor 401 or the Cheval Liberte GT1. My horse is a 15.2hh lightweight TB who was weighed by the Allen & Page lady on their portable scales at 455kg at spring weight, at full summer fatness, she is about 460- 470kg.

Here are the specs: 
1 - What licence they hold : I have a B license, my OH has a pre-1997 license.
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle: 1527 kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle: 1990kg is on the VIN plate.
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle: 1500kg.
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres: Ifor 401 1600kg or Cheval Liberte 1400kg.
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer: Ifor 401 770kg or Cheval Liberte 720kg.

I'm thinking I would be legal with the Cheval Liberte as is on my B license but would need to downplate the Ifor 401 to 1500kg to be legal or take my towing test?

I also discovered that Bateson do a double lightweight trailer that has a gross weight of  1700kg and an unladen weight of  675kg and that they would downplate for a single horse so I guess if I downplated that to 1500kg, that their double with just my TB in there would be ok too?


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## ROG (28 December 2014)

sidesaddlegirl said:



			Hi Rog, 

We bought a new 2.0 litre diesel estate (well new to us), it comes on Wednesday and passed my driving test after 10 years of lessons in October, so now I have a B license. I want to get out towing this year or next to local shows so am looking for a single trailer, either the Ifor 401 or the Cheval Liberte GT1. My horse is a 15.2hh lightweight TB who was weighed by the Allen & Page lady on their portable scales at 455kg at spring weight, at full summer fatness, she is about 460- 470kg.

Here are the specs: 
1 - What licence they hold : I have a B license, my OH has a pre-1997 license.
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle: 1527 kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle: 1990kg is on the VIN plate.
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle: 1500kg.
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres: Ifor 401 1600kg or Cheval Liberte 1400kg.
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer: Ifor 401 770kg or Cheval Liberte 720kg.

I'm thinking I would be legal with the Cheval Liberte as is on my B license but would need to downplate the Ifor 401 to 1500kg to be legal or take my towing test?

I also discovered that Bateson do a double lightweight trailer that has a gross weight of  1700kg and an unladen weight of  675kg and that they would downplate for a single horse so I guess if I downplated that to 1500kg, that their double with just my TB in there would be ok too?
		
Click to expand...

Your figures and working outs are spot on

You are spot on with the Bateson Derby trailer - only costs a tenner to down plate with them but you remove plate - send it to them with tenner - they send you new plate - you fit it

IW cost is £50 to down plate


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## sidesaddlegirl (28 December 2014)

Thanks Rog!!!   Now just need to get a trailer


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## littlen (29 December 2014)

Sorry to post to this thread again everyone.

I am really conflicted as to what to do re a trailer or Horsebox. Financially the trailer makes sense however I am sick of negative comments from people saying it would be either illegal or risky for me to tow without doing the test. I have never towed before and I would say I am an average driver. I could practice with the trailer but would be on my own most of the time hitching etc.

What is everyone's views on towing on a B without any lessons. Is this too risky?
Horse can be an idiot with stamping in the trailer.

How likley am I to need to be weighed by the police etc? How often are people pulled over the checked as this scares me! 

Car weighs 2250kg. Trailer would be a bateson Derby, single horse weighing 500kg. Car can tow somewhere in the region of 2000kg and is 4x4. Like I said i have never towed before ever. Would this weight be too close to the mark to be safe? 

Thoughts ROG?


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## catroo (29 December 2014)

littlen said:



			Sorry to post to this thread again everyone.

I am really conflicted as to what to do re a trailer or Horsebox. Financially the trailer makes sense however I am sick of negative comments from people saying it would be either illegal or risky for me to tow without doing the test. I have never towed before and I would say I am an average driver. I could practice with the trailer but would be on my own most of the time hitching etc.

What is everyone's views on towing on a B without any lessons. Is this too risky?
Horse can be an idiot with stamping in the trailer.

How likley am I to need to be weighed by the police etc? How often are people pulled over the checked as this scares me! 

Car weighs 2250kg. Trailer would be a bateson Derby, single horse weighing 500kg. Car can tow somewhere in the region of 2000kg and is 4x4. Like I said i have never towed before ever. Would this weight be too close to the mark to be safe? 

Thoughts ROG?
		
Click to expand...

I'll leave ROG to confirm weights but being within legal weight is important, it's not down to the likelihood of getting caught! If your car/trailer/horse combination is overweight then it will invalidate your insurance, while you may be careful accidents do happen and that could turn out very expensive if your insurance company denies any claim.

If you are legal then it's down to your ability, some people are natural and a handful couldn't get the hang of it in a month of Sundays. Best thing is plenty of practice with an empty box before you try with a horse, if you've never towed anything before I personally would recommend a lesson or at least a session with someone who is experienced even if they aren't an official trainer.


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## ROG (29 December 2014)

littlen said:



			Sorry to post to this thread again everyone.

I am really conflicted as to what to do re a trailer or Horsebox. Financially the trailer makes sense however I am sick of negative comments from people saying it would be either illegal or risky for me to tow without doing the test. I have never towed before and I would say I am an average driver. I could practice with the trailer but would be on my own most of the time hitching etc.

What is everyone's views on towing on a B without any lessons. Is this too risky?
Horse can be an idiot with stamping in the trailer.

How likley am I to need to be weighed by the police etc? How often are people pulled over the checked as this scares me! 

Car weighs 2250kg. Trailer would be a bateson Derby, single horse weighing 500kg. Car can tow somewhere in the region of 2000kg and is 4x4. Like I said i have never towed before ever. Would this weight be too close to the mark to be safe? 

Thoughts ROG?
		
Click to expand...

Many tow without having any lessons - many of those have the free pre 1997 B+E so there can be no difference in a B or B+E towing novice


If your vehicle has a plated GVW or max permissable max weight of 2250 then the max plated weight (MAM) for a trailer on a B licence is 1250

The Bateson Derby empty is 675 so having it down plated via contact with Bateson from 1700 to 1250 leaves 575 for the trailer load - your horse is 75 under that max so ok

Without doing it legally correctly you are invalidating any insurance and leave your self open to points and a very large fine - its not worth chancing it especially when it can legally be done easily


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## littlen (29 December 2014)

Thanks ROG. The car can tow 2200kg braked according to the handbook so I think that should be plenty for my pony- not sure what I am worried about but every single person I've told seems horrified that I am towing with a)a small 4x4 and b) without the test even though it would be legal? 
My friend tows a massive Ifor williams two horse with the same vehicle and it pulls just fine and she's never had trouble but she has the earlier lisence.

That 75kg spare wouldn't include the items in the car would it? Can I load the car with as much weight as I want legally?

I am sure it would be legally correct with the above weights but I just want to be 1000% sure before I commit to a new car and also a £4000 trailer. You have already checked the weights for me previously I believe and I'm sure the car is 2250kg and has full 4x4 spec, the model I am looking at has hill descent assist etc.

Thanks again both of you much appreciated.


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## ROG (29 December 2014)

littlen said:



			Thanks ROG. The car can tow 2200kg braked according to the handbook so I think that should be plenty for my pony- not sure what I am worried about but every single person I've told seems horrified that I am towing with a)a small 4x4 and b) without the test even though it would be legal? 
My friend tows a massive Ifor williams two horse with the same vehicle and it pulls just fine and she's never had trouble but she has the earlier lisence.

That 75kg spare wouldn't include the items in the car would it? Can I load the car with as much weight as I want legally?

I am sure it would be legally correct with the above weights but I just want to be 1000% sure before I commit to a new car and also a £4000 trailer. You have already checked the weights for me previously I believe and I'm sure the car is 2250kg and has full 4x4 spec, the model I am looking at has hill descent assist etc.

Thanks again both of you much appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

75 spare for the trailer

The car has its own weight load amount which is the GVW minus the kerb/empty/mass in service weight


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## littlen (29 December 2014)

A quick Google tells me that the derby weighs 600 without the partition which would give a bit more wiggle room- I would have to contact bateson to confirm this though but if that's true it makes me feel a bit happier about having a tiny bit of room to play with!


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## ROG (30 December 2014)

littlen said:



			A quick Google tells me that the derby weighs 600 without the partition which would give a bit more wiggle room- I would have to contact bateson to confirm this though but if that's true it makes me feel a bit happier about having a tiny bit of room to play with!
		
Click to expand...

Would allow for a little more to go in the trailer but its not that big a deal because its still well within the plated trailer weight and the vehicle towing capacity


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## ROG (30 December 2014)

Some useful driving licence info







https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208103/ins57p.pdf
see pages 7 to 10


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## ROG (30 December 2014)

As this is post number 2000 which makes it easy to relate back to

These simple rules apply to all B and B+E category drivers no matter when the test was passed

B category
Vehicle not more than 3500 kg plated GVW

B category towing
A trailer of 750 kg max plated MAM may be towed by a B category vehicle making a possible total plated MAM of 4250 kg
If a trailer over 750 kg plated MAM is towed by a B category vehicle then the plated GVW of the vehicle added to the plated MAM of the trailer (MTPLM of a caravan) must not total more than 3500 kg

B+E category
Towing a trailer with a B category vehicle where the trailer is not over 3500 kg plated MAM

To tow a trailer over 3500 kg plated MAM the category needed is C1+E

Below goes deeper into the rules......

*Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained*

Licensing laws are based on plated weights not actual weights.

GVW, MAM or MTPLM means maximum permissible legal weight something can weigh when fully loaded.

The towing vehicle GVW can be obtained from the V5 registered keepers form listed as maximum permissible mass, the handbook, or a plate somewhere on the vehicle &#8211; usually under bonnet or hidden in a door frame &#8211; the top figure is always the GVW.

Towing capacity (manufacturer actual towing weight limit) &#8211; not legally enforceable in the RTA but based on safety and engine power under certain conditions and can be prosecuted for excess under C&U reg 100

GTW - the max legal weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights.
In most cases, the GVW added to the towing capacity will also be the GTW.

The trailer info can be obtained from a plate on the trailer, by calling the trailer manufacturer, or on the internet. If no plate then the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating  will be used by the authorities to determine the MAM to a maximum of 3500 even if the total is more than that.

There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to cope with the plated MAM of a trailer but there are plenty of internet myths on this.

The only legally recognised way to down plate a trailer of 3500 kgs MAM or less is to contact the trailer manufacturer usually at very little cost.

The laws/rules are these for both B+E & B licence towing.
The GVW of the vehicle must not be exceeded (RTA law)
The GTW must not be exceeded (RTA law)
The plated MAM of the trailer must not be exceeded (RTA law).
The towing capacity should not be exceeded (can be prosecutable under C&U regulation 100).
The lower of the trailer MAM or the towing capacity must/should be used as the maximum actual weight when loaded.

For B licence towing with a trailer over 750 kgs MAM.
The vehicle GVW added to the trailer MAM must not exceed 3500 kg (RTA law)

EXAMPLE
Vehicle
GVW 2050 kg
Towing capacity 1700 kg
GTW 3750 kg

Trailer
Un-laden/empty 700 kg
MAM 2000 kg

For B+E licence towing the trailer can be loaded with 1000 kgs because 1000+700=1700 kg which is the towing capacity.

For B licence towing the trailer would need down plating from 2000 kgs to a maximum of 1450 kg.
The reason is that 1450+2050=3500 which is the maximum allowed for B licence towing.
The trailer can be loaded with 750 kg because 750+700=1450 kg which is the trailer MAM.

Caravan weights work on a slightly different system as they take into account the recommended (not legal) 85% towing advice.

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving
*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
*VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions* = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqw6Ua3kmFc&feature=related - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
*VIDEO - Reversing Exercise* = http://www.drivesafedriving.co.uk/b_e_rev_movie.htm - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*DSA REVERSING TEST AREA DIAGRAM* = https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._PCV_BE_manoeuvring_exercise_area_diagram.pdf 
*VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up* = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao_5KOe8dGg&feature=related - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

The trailer must now be loaded with 600 kgs of sand bags or a 1000 kgs water IBC for the test so most companies are now training with that weight in the trailer = https://www.gov.uk/new-laden-testing-rules-for-driving-test-vehicles 

*Well explained here* = http://www.trailertraining-wales.co.uk/test.html 

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos

This is interesting BUT NOT RECOMMENDED &#8211; a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test that means you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself. 
*DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS* =  http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_4022521 
Remember that the required 600 kgs of sand bags or 1 x 1000 IBC filled with water will be required in the trailer and the load must be secure.

Please post with as much of this info as you can if you want me to answer a specific query - weights in kg please 

LICENCE
B or B+E =

VEHICLE
GVW =
Towing capacity = 

TRAILER
Un-laden/empty = 
MAM =


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## km-j (31 December 2014)

Good afternoon, 
Would you mind checking my details please to see if my setup is legal: 

1 - BE
2 - 1391kg
3 - 1950kg
4 - 1500kg
5 - 1600kg
6 - 767kg

Thanks muchly &#128516;


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## ROG (31 December 2014)

km-j said:



			Good afternoon, 
Would you mind checking my details please to see if my setup is legal: 

1 - BE
2 - 1391kg
3 - 1950kg
4 - 1500kg
5 - 1600kg
6 - 767kg

Thanks muchly &#55357;&#56836;
		
Click to expand...

LEGAL as long as you put no more than 733kg into the trailer (1500-767=733)

If the trailer was down plated from 1600 to 1550 then it would also be legal for a B licence to tow


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## ThoroughbredStar (9 January 2015)

Hi ROG

Here are my details:


1 - B
2 - 1605kg - unladen weight of vehicle
3 - 2075kg - GVW
4 - 1700kg - Towing capacity (breaked)
5 - 2000kg - Trailer MAM
6 - 700kg - unladen trailer weight

I am of the understanding I need to down plate my trailer to 1600kg to make it legal. 

My horse weighs approx 518kg (currently) which would then in total make my combination weight well within the 3.5t, 2823kg.



Many thanks
TS


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## ROG (9 January 2015)

ThoroughbredStar said:



			Hi ROG

Here are my details:


1 - B
2 - 1605kg - unladen weight of vehicle
3 - 2075kg - GVW
4 - 1700kg - Towing capacity (breaked)
5 - 2000kg - Trailer MAM
6 - 700kg - unladen trailer weight

I am of the understanding I need to down plate my trailer to 1600kg to make it legal. 

My horse weighs approx 518kg (currently) which would then in total make my combination weight well within the 3.5t, 2823kg.



Many thanks
TS
		
Click to expand...

You need to down plate the trailer to a max of 1425 to make it legal (2075+1425=3500) as 3500 is the max for B towing

Down plating it to 1400 will still leave 700 for the trailer load so plenty enough for a horse between 500 and 600

Your 2823 weight is the actual weight without anything or anybody in the car - licencing laws always go on plated weights


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## Trailer Training (9 January 2015)

The information ROG is giving is dependant on when you passed your car driving test as the towing law changed again in January 2013


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## ThoroughbredStar (9 January 2015)

ROG said:



			You need to down plate the trailer to a max of 1425 to make it legal (2075+1425=3500) as 3500 is the max for B towing

Down plating it to 1400 will still leave 700 for the trailer load so plenty enough for a horse between 500 and 600

Your 2823 weight is the actual weight without anything or anybody in the car - licencing laws always go on plated weights
		
Click to expand...

Great, thank you for that.

I did not realise the law was based on the Plated weights and not the actual weights, which does seem a little crazy. 

I was also of the understanding as per a "horsey towing website" that the trailer MAM was not to exceed the unladen weight of a vehicle, not the GVW. Thank you for clearing that up.


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## ThoroughbredStar (9 January 2015)

Trailer Training said:



			The information ROG is giving is dependant on when you passed your car driving test as the towing law changed again in January 2013
		
Click to expand...

Post "97 Pre "13


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## ROG (9 January 2015)

Trailer Training said:



			The information ROG is giving is dependant on when you passed your car driving test as the towing law changed again in January 2013
		
Click to expand...

No it did not - the rules for ALL B and B+E drivers are exactly the same no matter when they passed the test

PLEASE DO NOT GIVE OUT INCORRECT INFO AS LAW based on what you surmised from the internet where the DVLA has left up the old rules which got revoked on 19/01/2013

Here are the currrent laws on pages 7 t0 10 = https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208103/ins57p.pdf

If you want to discuss verbally then please initially contact me at r0g@live.co.uk which is my spare email address - I will then email you my phone number


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## ROG (9 January 2015)

ThoroughbredStar said:



			Great, thank you for that.

I did not realise the law was based on the Plated weights and not the actual weights, which does seem a little crazy. 

I was also of the understanding as per a "horsey towing website" that the trailer MAM was not to exceed the unladen weight of a vehicle, not the GVW. Thank you for clearing that up.
		
Click to expand...

That last rule was revoked in full on 19/01/2013 but the plated weight rule is and always has been there


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## ThoroughbredStar (9 January 2015)

ROG said:



			That last rule was revoked in full on 19/01/2013 but the plated weight rule is and always has been there
		
Click to expand...

Thank you.

I am also presuming that I still have to also comply with the following weight guidelines:
Trailer laden/unladen weight not to exceed towing capacity of vehicle.
Combination of trailer, vehicle and contents being within 3.5t.
Not to load the trailer and exceed its plated MAM.

Many thanks


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## ROG (9 January 2015)

ThoroughbredStar said:



			Thank you.

I am also presuming that I still have to also comply with the following weight guidelines:
Trailer laden/unladen weight not to exceed towing capacity of vehicle.
Combination of trailer, vehicle and contents being within 3.5t.
Not to load the trailer and exceed its plated MAM.

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

Trailer laden/unladen weight not to exceed towing capacity of vehicle.= no such law
YES 
YES as well as vehicle GVW(MAM)

As the total of the plated weights cannot exceed 3500 then legally the actual total cannot exceed 3500


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## Trailer Training (10 January 2015)

ROG said:



			That last rule was revoked in full on 19/01/2013 but the plated weight rule is and always has been there
		
Click to expand...

If you are going to give advise make sure its right, the advise by ROG is wrong, the plated weight did not come law until 19th January 2013, 1997 to 2013 it was the actual weight of the combination as if it was put on a weigh bridge, so therefor the car trailer passengers fuel trailer load etc must not exceed 3500kgs in actual weight.

Is this something that you have self learnt or are you qualified to give this advise.


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## ROG (10 January 2015)

Trailer Training said:



			If you are going to give advise make sure its right, the advise by ROG is wrong, the plated weight did not come law until 19th January 2013, 1997 to 2013 it was the actual weight of the combination as if it was put on a weigh bridge, so therefor the car trailer passengers fuel trailer load etc must not exceed 3500kgs in actual weight.

Is this something that you have self learnt or are you qualified to give this advise.
		
Click to expand...

I do not know who this member is folks but PLEASE do not take any advice from them as they are 100% giving wrong legal information.


TT - I have offered you the chance to contact me in post number 2008 so I can discuss this issue but it seems you are determined to stick to your own unique interpretation of the law

I HAVE NOW EMAILED AND TEXT YOU


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## Trailer Training (10 January 2015)

I will repeat my question "Is this something that you have self learnt or are you qualified to give this advise."


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## Tiddlypom (10 January 2015)

Trailer Training said:



			I will repeat my question "Is this something that you have self learnt or are you qualified to give this advise."
		
Click to expand...

And what are your qualifications in this field?


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## ROG (10 January 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			And what are your qualifications in this field?
		
Click to expand...

My advise is gained from experience and from the DVLA DVSA DfT as well as the traffic police

It is also written in the RTA and has been for over 25 years


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## Trailer Training (10 January 2015)

passed my ADI in 1986, qualified HGV, car, motorbike and PCV instructor, Driving examiner in the army until 1999, taken 19 driving test combining civilian and army together, worked for VOSA for 5yrs from 1999 to 2004.

How about you?


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## ROG (10 January 2015)

I think I know where TTs info comes from and that is the Gov sites where either the wprd MAM has been omitted or the caveat which states that all weights refer to MAM weights has not been shown - this is the usual error that those writing the info on such sites fail to check on

I know this because my MP has informed the DfT minister and although promises were made to rectify the online info nothing has happened = typical Govt !!


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## Trailer Training (10 January 2015)

Please answer my question, self taught or qualified.


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## ROG (10 January 2015)

Trailer Training said:



			passed my ADI in 1986, qualified HGV, car, motorbike and PCV instructor, Driving examiner in the army until 1999, taken 19 driving test combining civilian and army together, worked for VOSA for 5yrs from 1999 to 2004.

How about you?
		
Click to expand...

VOSA for 5 years which means you know abut weights but not licencing law - that is dealt with by the DVLA not DVSA/VOSA

We have a member on here - geebee45 - who can trump your years and experience with VOSA - he was a regional TE who attended courts as an expert witness = that is the caliber of people who I get info from

Being an ADI etc does not mean you have credentials in knowing the driving licence laws - I have discussed this issue with loads of vehicle instructors and all of them agree with me even if they originally did not


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## ROG (10 January 2015)

TT - perhaps you could point out in this decent Gov DVLA PDF where it states different rules for drivers with B and B+E licence?
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208103/ins57p.pdf


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## ROG (10 January 2015)

Trailer Training said:



			Please answer my question, self taught or qualified.
		
Click to expand...

A qualified person in law would need to be a lawyer versed in transport law and neither of us are such


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## Trailer Training (10 January 2015)

You have avoided answering my question, so I will take it that you are unqualified self taught, advising people if they are legal yet people could be driving around the UK and Europe on your advise. So if and when they are stopped and found to be illegally towing, have the car and trailer seized on the road side, prosecuted for no licence, no insurance, no L plates, banned from driving and then have a large fine to pay.


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## ROG (10 January 2015)

Trailer Training said:



			You have avoided answering my question, so I will take it that you are unqualified self taught, advising people if they are legal yet people could be driving around the UK and Europe on your advise. So if and when they are stopped and found to be illegally towing, have the car and trailer seized on the road side, prosecuted for no licence, no insurance, no L plates, banned from driving and then have a large fine to pay.
		
Click to expand...

Better that I am giving them the correct legal answer than doing what you are which is giving them an incorrect one to which they can get prosecuted !!


I am assuming from your answers that you think this is legal for a driver with only a B licence ????

Passed car test in year 2000 so B licence only

Vehicle
GVW 2000
Kerb 1500
Towing capacity 2000
GTW 4000
Loaded with 400
Actual weight when loaded 1900

Trailer
MAM 2500
Empty 500
Loaded with 1100
Actual weight when loaded 1600

Total GTW/actual weight 3500
Total plated MAM/GVW weight 4500

YOU ARE SAYING THAT IS LEGAL ?


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## Trailer Training (10 January 2015)

How can you advise people if you are not qualified in any format, you might be well respected on here because you have lulled people into believing that you can give them legal advise, they you say your not got any legal qualification, nor have you ever passed any qualification to teach people to drive. perhaps your signature should say not qualified to give advise its just my opinion, that would be factually correct. I have got better things to do than correct you all day, if people want to believe somebody with no qualification in driver training then I hope they take legal action against you for you for giving them bad advise. I have also reported the situation to admin.


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## ROG (10 January 2015)

Trailer Training said:



			How can you advise people if you are not qualified in any format, you might be well respected on here because you have lulled people into believing that you can give them legal advise, they you say your not got any legal qualification, nor have you ever passed any qualification to teach people to drive. perhaps your signature should say not qualified to give advise its just my opinion, that would be factually correct. I have got better things to do than correct you all day, if people want to believe somebody with no qualification in driver training then I hope they take legal action against you for you for giving them bad advise. I have also reported the situation to admin.
		
Click to expand...

I am glad you have reported this to site admin because it is very dangerous for members to take advice from you on this matter

I hope admin deal with you appropriately 

Now if you would be so kind as to answer the question for my example .....


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## ROG (10 January 2015)

TT - regarding driver training ..... how many drivers have you got through the LGV and advanced driver tests? 

We can both keep going there so whats the point of going to the 'my dad is bigger than your dad' ? = its childish


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## ROG (10 January 2015)

I do often wonder if those that give answers on subjects like this do their 'due diligence' first like I did and not just rely on what is written on the internet even if it is on the .GOV sites


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## ThoroughbredStar (12 January 2015)

ROG said:



			Trailer laden/unladen weight not to exceed towing capacity of vehicle.= no such law
YES 
YES as well as vehicle GVW(MAM)

As the total of the plated weights cannot exceed 3500 then legally the actual total cannot exceed 3500
		
Click to expand...

Great, thank you. I pretty much understand now- very helpful. 

Page 9 of the link you also shared https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208103/ins57p.pdf quite clearly states what you have advised on here.

Once again, many thanks for your information, very helpful!


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## ROG (12 January 2015)

ThoroughbredStar said:



			Great, thank you. I pretty much understand now- very helpful. 

Page 9 of the link you also shared https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208103/ins57p.pdf quite clearly states what you have advised on here.

Once again, many thanks for your information, very helpful!
		
Click to expand...

You are welcome and can be assured that any info I give will be legally correct as I have done my due diligence

If I am not certain on an issue I will say so by adding something like - I think - so that the receiver knows it may not be a fact


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## ThoroughbredStar (12 January 2015)

Sorry to pester you again ROG! But........

With regards to Licensing, the DVLA say B holders can drive "motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg and designed and constructed for the carriage of no more than 8 passengers in addition to the driver with a trailer over 750kg, where the combination MAM is not exceeding 3500kg."

I am now unclear this refers to just the MAM of vehicle and trailer and excludes the GTW plated on the vehicle. Do I ignore the GTW plated on the vehicle when considering Licensing? 

Many thanks in advance.


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## ThoroughbredStar (12 January 2015)

ThoroughbredStar said:



			Sorry to pester you again ROG! But........

With regards to Licensing, the DVLA say B holders can drive "motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg and designed and constructed for the carriage of no more than 8 passengers in addition to the driver with a trailer over 750kg, where the combination MAM is not exceeding 3500kg."

I am now unclear this refers to just the MAM of vehicle and trailer and excludes the GTW plated on the vehicle. Do I ignore the GTW plated on the vehicle when considering Licensing? 

Many thanks in advance.
		
Click to expand...


IGNORE ME! I know the answer! The GTW is the breaked towing capacity of the vehicle (number plated minus the GVW)- doh! Paranoia strikes again!


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## ROG (12 January 2015)

ThoroughbredStar said:



			Sorry to pester you again ROG! But........

With regards to Licensing, the DVLA say B holders can drive "motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg and designed and constructed for the carriage of no more than 8 passengers in addition to the driver with a trailer over 750kg, where the combination MAM is not exceeding 3500kg."

I am now unclear this refers to just the MAM of vehicle and trailer and excludes the GTW plated on the vehicle. Do I ignore the GTW plated on the vehicle when considering Licensing? 

Many thanks in advance.
		
Click to expand...

All vehicles (design specifications permitting) are allowed to tow a max 750 kgs plated weight braked trailer
An un-braked trailer may also be up to 750 provided it is not more than half the kerb/empty weight of the vehicle
B with GVW at 3500
C1 with GVW at 7500
C with any GVW
D1 with 10+ total seats
D with 18+ total seats
When a trailer goes over that 750 plated weight then other towing licence laws apply

GTW does not come into licencing but instead refers to the max actual (not plated) weight a vehicle and trailer can be when weighed together

I can do examples if you need more clarity


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## ROG (12 January 2015)

ThoroughbredStar said:



			IGNORE ME! I know the answer! The GTW is the breaked towing capacity of the vehicle (number plated minus the GVW)- doh! Paranoia strikes again!
		
Click to expand...

GTW is not the braked towing capacity of the vehicle

GTW minus GVW is not always the towing capacity

One example of that is the transit 280 which has a GVW of 2800, a GTW of 3500 and a towing capacity of 1200
To tow 1200 behind that transit the vehicle cannot be loaded to an actual weight exceeding 2300


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## ThoroughbredStar (12 January 2015)

ROG said:



			All vehicles (design specifications permitting) are allowed to tow a max 750 kgs plated weight braked trailer
An un-braked trailer may also be up to 750 provided it is not more than half the kerb/empty weight of the vehicle
B with GVW at 3500
C1 with GVW at 7500
C with any GVW
D1 with 10+ total seats
D with 18+ total seats
When a trailer goes over that 750 plated weight then other towing licence laws apply

GTW does not come into licencing but instead refers to the max actual (not plated) weight a vehicle and trailer can be when weighed together

I can do examples if you need more clarity
		
Click to expand...

That makes sense, thank you.


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## ROG (12 January 2015)

I came across this B+E trailer reversing game on another site - have fun

http://www.marops.net/portfolio/trailer-reversing-game


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## SplashofSoy (13 January 2015)

I am confused, please help me.  I have the B+E test on my licence taken last year.  I need to change my car soon and wanted to get something that i could tow with on short journeys/hardstanding car parks only.  If i was going on long journeys i can borrow my dad's shogun but as he lives 40 miles away its not practical to do regularly.  The trailer is an older Ifor 510 and horse when weighed on weigh scales was 574kg so its a good guide.  How do i know what vehicle i can tow with, was looking at a Volvo estate or something similar.  Do i just need to look at braked trailer towing capacity so if the car can tow 1800-2000kg or over i would be fine to tow using that car just my horse?


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## ROG (13 January 2015)

SplashofSoy said:



			I am confused, please help me.  I have the B+E test on my licence taken last year.  I need to change my car soon and wanted to get something that i could tow with on short journeys/hardstanding car parks only.  If i was going on long journeys i can borrow my dad's shogun but as he lives 40 miles away its not practical to do regularly.  The trailer is an older Ifor 510 and horse when weighed on weigh scales was 574kg so its a good guide.  How do i know what vehicle i can tow with, was looking at a Volvo estate or something similar.  Do i just need to look at braked trailer towing capacity so if the car can tow 1800-2000kg or over i would be fine to tow using that car just my horse?
		
Click to expand...

B+E 
Horse x 1 = 575kg?
Trailer empty = 1000kg
Short journeys not needing 4x4

Allowing for a bit more put in the trailer then you need a car capable of towing say 1700
Most will tow much more than 1700 so you will have plenty to choose from


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## SplashofSoy (13 January 2015)

Thanks ROG.  Was reading round it and so many people say you cant tow with anything but a big 4x4 with 3.5T capacity and this thing about the total weight the trailer can carry etc. Basically it is as simple as you think.  How much does the car tow (braked trailer capacity) and as long as its 1700kg or more i am legal and safe.


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## ROG (13 January 2015)

SplashofSoy said:



			Thanks ROG.  Was reading round it and so many people say you cant tow with anything but a big 4x4 with 3.5T capacity and this thing about the total weight the trailer can carry etc. Basically it is as simple as you think.  How much does the car tow (braked trailer capacity) and as long as its 1700kg or more i am legal and safe.
		
Click to expand...

You got it

Many have a personal preference and often need a 4x4 due to the areas they need to tow on but there is no safety issue with towing a horsebox or any other sort of trailer with a basic car if the driver treats it right


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## sidesaddlegirl (13 January 2015)

Rog, I'm getting my 401 trailer this weekend. Any chance that you know of any instructors in Leicester (unless you are one yourself!) that could give me a few lessons to get used to it all! Sorry for posting this here but can't seem to message you


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## ROG (14 January 2015)

sidesaddlegirl said:



			Rog, I'm getting my 401 trailer this weekend. Any chance that you know of any instructors in Leicester (unless you are one yourself!) that could give me a few lessons to get used to it all! Sorry for posting this here but can't seem to message you 

Click to expand...

I have helped two leicester members already so it looks like you are number three
I just need my expenses covered and dry weather
Please Email me on my spare account = r0g@live.co.uk

Has the trailer been down plated for your B licence?


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## sidesaddlegirl (14 January 2015)

ROG said:



			I have helped two leicester members already so it looks like you are number three
I just need my expenses covered and dry weather
Please Email me on my spare account = r0g@live.co.uk

Has the trailer been down plated for your B licence?
		
Click to expand...

Not yet, once I get it, I was going to ring Ifor and get it done so won't be for a few weeks yet as I need to get my mechanic friend to remove it and fix it back on for me. I will email you when I get home from work as shouldn't really be on H&H during work time, lol  Thanks so much!!!


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## ROG (14 January 2015)

sidesaddlegirl said:



			Not yet, once I get it, I was going to ring Ifor and get it done so won't be for a few weeks yet as I need to get my mechanic friend to remove it and fix it back on for me. I will email you when I get home from work as shouldn't really be on H&H during work time, lol  Thanks so much!!! 

Click to expand...

Not got any email - try advanced.driving@live.co.uk


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## sidesaddlegirl (15 January 2015)

ROG said:



			Not got any email - try advanced.driving@live.co.uk

Click to expand...

Just sent it again


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## alexomahony (16 January 2015)

1 - What licence they hold - B 
 2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1250kg
 3 - GVW of the towing vehicle 2250kg
 4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 1500kg
 5 - Plated MAM of the trailer - 1200kg
 6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 650kg

Am I legal ROG? I'm pretty sure I am according to GOV rules below ... 

Licences held from 1 January 1997

If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can:
##drive a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500kg MAM towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM 
##tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg 


For anything heavier you need to take a category B+E driving test.

Thanks x


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## 0310Star (16 January 2015)

Rog, I need a bit of advice!

I have just bought a Ford Kuga AWD 2.0 TDCI and thinking of using it for towing. I have a B licence only but OH has licence to tow if B licence is a no.
What weights am I allowed etc? Horse is 550kg.

I am totally new to this towing malarkey, as you could probably tell


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## ROG (16 January 2015)

alexomahony said:



			1 - What licence they hold - B 
 2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1250kg
 3 - GVW of the towing vehicle 2250kg
 4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 1500kg
 5 - Plated MAM of the trailer - 1200kg
 6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 650kg

Am I legal ROG? I'm pretty sure I am according to GOV rules below ... 

Licences held from 1 January 1997

If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can:
##drive a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500kg MAM towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM 
##tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined (MAM) weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg 


For anything heavier you need to take a category B+E driving test.

Thanks x
		
Click to expand...

I put in what they missed = (MAM)

Perfectly legal on your B licence because the total MAM is 3450 (2250+1200=3450) so below the max of 3500

You can load 550 into the trailer (1200-650=550)

The 650 does seem a little low but if you have confirmed this then ok


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## ROG (16 January 2015)

0310Star said:



			Rog, I need a bit of advice!

I have just bought a Ford Kuga AWD 2.0 TDCI and thinking of using it for towing. I have a B licence only but OH has licence to tow if B licence is a no.
What weights am I allowed etc? Horse is 550kg.

I am totally new to this towing malarkey, as you could probably tell 

Click to expand...

How strange .... your GVW of 2250 is exactly the same as the poster above ... perhaps you both have the same vehicle?

That means the max plated MAM the trailer can have is 1250kg

You need the same trailer that the other member has to get 550 into it BUT it needs to be plated at 1250 not 1200 like theirs because you need a little weight load leeway so that extra 50kg will do that

What is the current plated MAM of your trailer and what is its empty weight?? - perhaps posting what trailer it is might allow me to get that info off the web

OH can sit next to you so you can tow it if its a B+E set up ....
*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## alexomahony (16 January 2015)

Thanks ROG,

Yes, my trailer is a Sinclair Princess (no front ramp) which, according to an original Sinclair brochure, is 650KG.


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## alexomahony (16 January 2015)

My vehicle is the Toyota RAV4 - doesn't seem to be rated as a good tow vehicle by the horse community, but loved by the caravanning crews! It tows my trailer and pony very well, up and down and in all weathers, to hunt and for local shows and shows no signs of struggling with anything. Will upgrade if needed, and take trailer test, but until I need to, then I shall not 

Thank you ROG x


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## alexomahony (16 January 2015)

ROG said:



			How strange .... your GVW of 2250 is exactly the same as the poster above ... perhaps you both have the same vehicle?

That means the max plated MAM the trailer can have is 1250kg

You need the same trailer that the other member has to get 550 into it BUT it needs to be plated at 1250 not 1200 like theirs because you need a little weight load leeway so that extra 50kg will do that

What is the current plated MAM of your trailer and what is its empty weight?? - perhaps posting what trailer it is might allow me to get that info off the web

OH can sit next to you so you can tow it if its a B+E set up ....
*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving
		
Click to expand...

Or you could have a single cheval liberte... I'm sure they're pretty light. If your horse is 550KG, he must be quite big - most of the lighter trailers are pony trailers... mine will only take upto 16hh - my horse is 15hh and between 450-500kg x


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## ROG (16 January 2015)

To alexmahony - As sinclair trailers are no longer trading then you are lucky to have one with a low MAM because they cannot be replated any more

To 0310star - a good trailer for you would be the Bateson Derby at 675 empty because they can be replated for £10 from 1700 to 1250 by contacting Bateson - you remove and send them the plate as well as a tenner then they send you a new plate for you to fix on


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## ROG (16 January 2015)

cheval liberte trailers have a somewhat budious customer service record but are still trading so they can be down plated
http://www.chevaltrailers.co.uk/single-mare-foal.html
Those in the link weight 720 empty which with a 550 horse makes 1270 so too heavy for the 1250 limit


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## alexomahony (16 January 2015)

Mine has been re plated by Wessex for £15. Sinclair was purchased by Pegasus, which was taken over by Wessex. They take responsibility for re plating and are happy to do so.


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## ROG (16 January 2015)

alexomahony said:



			Mine has been re plated by Wessex for £15. Sinclair was purchased by Pegasus, which was taken over by Wessex. They take responsibility for re plating and are happy to do so.
		
Click to expand...

GREAT INFO - thanks


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## alexomahony (16 January 2015)

ROG said:



			GREAT INFO - thanks
		
Click to expand...

No problem - I thought it'd be an issue too but found Wessex could do it after an intensive search


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## ROG (16 January 2015)

alexomahony said:



			No problem - I thought it'd be an issue too but found Wessex could do it after an intensive search 

Click to expand...

I can confirm after calling them just now that this is correct - like Bateson, you send Wessex the sinclair plate and £15 then they send you new plate


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## 0310Star (16 January 2015)

ROG said:



			To alexmahony - As sinclair trailers are no longer trading then you are lucky to have one with a low MAM because they cannot be replated any more

To 0310star - a good trailer for you would be the Bateson Derby at 675 empty because they can be replated for £10 from 1700 to 1250 by contacting Bateson - you remove and send them the plate as well as a tenner then they send you a new plate for you to fix on
		
Click to expand...

Brill, thanks Rog! 

So if I had a Bateson Derby and had it replated, I could tow my 550kg horse under my B licence? And my Kuga would be capable of this too?


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## ROG (16 January 2015)

0310Star said:



			Brill, thanks Rog! 

So if I had a Bateson Derby and had it replated, I could tow my 550kg horse under my B licence? And my Kuga would be capable of this too?
		
Click to expand...

YES

Assuming I have the GVW correct at 2250 for your Kuga which you can confirm in either of two ways ...
The hidden plate under the bonnet or in a door frame - its the top number of the four
The max permissible mass on the V5 keepers form

If the 2250 is correct then get a Derby down plated to 1250 - at 1250 with an empty weight of 675 that leaves 575 for the max trailer load


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## 0310Star (16 January 2015)

That's great  I will need to check the GVW and if it's correct then I will look into the Bateson Derby! 
Thank you


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## stevieg (17 January 2015)

Hi. Brilliant thread on a ridiculously over complicated issue   

Looking to buy a car to tow an Ifor Williams 510 trailer. 

I have two in mind and would appreciate your help with the legalities.

1. Pre 97 licence 

First car - Nissan X Trail
2. 1525kg
3. 2050kg
4. 2000kg
5. 2700kg
6. 1000kg

Second car - Mitsubishi Shogun LWB
2. 2300kg
3. 3030kg
4. 3500kg
5. 2700kg
6. 1000kg


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## ROG (18 January 2015)

stevieg said:



			Hi. Brilliant thread on a ridiculously over complicated issue   

Looking to buy a car to tow an Ifor Williams 510 trailer. 

I have two in mind and would appreciate your help with the legalities.

1. Pre 97 licence 

First car - Nissan X Trail
2. 1525kg
3. 2050kg
4. 2000kg
5. 2700kg
6. 1000kg

Second car - Mitsubishi Shogun LWB
2. 2300kg
3. 3030kg
4. 3500kg
5. 2700kg
6. 1000kg
		
Click to expand...

First car - max load for trailer = 1000 (2000-1000=1000)

Second car - max load for trailer = 1700 (2700-1000=1700)

You have a B+E so those will be legal


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## stevieg (19 January 2015)

Great. Thank you

What about on a B Licence?


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## ROG (20 January 2015)

stevieg said:



			Great. Thank you

What about on a B Licence?
		
Click to expand...

First car - Nissan X Trail
3. 2050kg GVW
4. 2000kg
5. 2700kg
6. 1000kg
For B towing down plate trailer to 1450kg but only leaves a max trailer load of 450kg

Second car - Mitsubishi Shogun LWB
3. 3030kg GVW
4. 3500kg
5. 2700kg
6. 1000kg
Not possible on a B licence because max MAM for trailer is 750kg


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## ROG (21 January 2015)

clip_clop said:



			Just following these posts with interest, would I be able to tow a ifor Williams single trailer with 05 Kia sorento, horse weighs 500kg but I only have B entitlement on my driving licence. Been trying to find out but the weights etc have had me confused! Thank you
		
Click to expand...

http://www.autoevolution.com/cars/kia-sorento-2002.html#aeng_kia-sorento-2002-24-16v
GVW 2455kg which only leaves 1045kg plated MAM for a trailer which is not enough for a horse trailer - well, it would be for a minature pony!

You need a vehicle with a GVW around 2100kg


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## Tyanilth (22 January 2015)

Hi and thank you so much for this thread.  Prospective setup is as follows.

1.  I have the B and E licence, test taken before 1997
2. Prospective towing vehicle Saab 95 Vector Tid.  This is my regular car, and I want to be able to tow one of my horses with it, on short trips only.  We are currently looking at the purchase of a land rover defender to pull both, but this is some way in the future.

Mass in service 1785 kg, no alteration since factory other than tow bar
Max permissible mass 3960kg

Trailer is a Bahill Sportsman, unladen weight 650kg (confirmed on weigh bridge)

Horse weight approximately 600 kg

Saab handbook gives this model a towing capacity of 1800 kg ( they seem to be popular as towing cars for heavy caravans )

This combination would seem to be well within the legal limit for the car - is there anything I'm not taking into account here?

Obviously I don't expect to drive it across a muddy field!

Many thanks.


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## ROG (22 January 2015)

Tyanilth said:



			Hi and thank you so much for this thread.  Prospective setup is as follows.

1.  I have the B and E licence, test taken before 1997
2. Prospective towing vehicle Saab 95 Vector Tid.  This is my regular car, and I want to be able to tow one of my horses with it, on short trips only.  We are currently looking at the purchase of a land rover defender to pull both, but this is some way in the future.

Mass in service 1785 kg, no alteration since factory other than tow bar
Max permissible mass 3960kg

Trailer is a Bahill Sportsman, unladen weight 650kg (confirmed on weigh bridge)

Horse weight approximately 600 kg

Saab handbook gives this model a towing capacity of 1800 kg ( they seem to be popular as towing cars for heavy caravans )

This combination would seem to be well within the legal limit for the car - is there anything I'm not taking into account here?

Obviously I don't expect to drive it across a muddy field!

Many thanks.
		
Click to expand...

Towing capacity = 1800
Horse = 600
Empty trailer = 650

As long as the trailer is plated at 1250 or more then all is ok

If no plate is fitted then the total of the tyre load ratings on each tyre is the MAM


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## Tyanilth (22 January 2015)

ROG said:



			Towing capacity = 1800
Horse = 600
Empty trailer = 650

As long as the trailer is plated at 1250 or more then all is ok

If no plate is fitted then the total of the tyre load ratings on each tyre is the MAM
		
Click to expand...

Thank you again.  
I've only just bought the trailer so will ask them to check the plate.  Bahill designed these to carry two 16.2s and I believe the MAM was about 1900kg but that is hearsay from someone else who used to have one.  The firm's been out of business for a long time so hard to get original spec sheets.  Will now print all of this off and put it in my "folder-to-show-clueless-coppers" which I hope never to need


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## ROG (22 January 2015)

Tyanilth said:



			Thank you again.  
I've only just bought the trailer so will ask them to check the plate.  Bahill designed these to carry two 16.2s and I believe the MAM was about 1900kg but that is hearsay from someone else who used to have one.  The firm's been out of business for a long time so hard to get original spec sheets.  Will now print all of this off and put it in my "folder-to-show-clueless-coppers" which I hope never to need 

Click to expand...

If the trailer MAM is 1900 and the towing capacity is 1800 then the lower of the two is used as the maximum the trailer can weight when loaded


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## Cheshire Chestnut (24 January 2015)

Hi ROG, sorry but really need your help. Going to hopefully pick up a trailer on Monday and it's the exact same one as this: http://m.preloved.co.uk/m/showadvert/112353298/richardson-rice-2-horse-trailer.html but someone has cleaned the plate with a wire brush and it's got nothing left. We believe the MAM is 1400kg. Empty is 655kg.

I have a VW Golf 2ltr diesel that has a gross weight of 1920kg and a towing capacity of 1500kg. 

My pony weighs approx 450kg and definitely not more than 500kg.

Would I be ok towing him in it with this trailer and car just on a B licence? I've tried to work it out and I think I can but my dad isn't too convinced. Help! 

Thank you


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## ROG (24 January 2015)

Cheshire Chestnut said:



			Hi ROG, sorry but really need your help. Going to hopefully pick up a trailer on Monday and it's the exact same one as this: http://m.preloved.co.uk/m/showadvert/112353298/richardson-rice-2-horse-trailer.html but someone has cleaned the plate with a wire brush and it's got nothing left. We believe the MAM is 1400kg. Empty is 655kg.

I have a VW Golf 2ltr diesel that has a gross weight of 1920kg and a towing capacity of 1500kg. 

My pony weighs approx 450kg and definitely not more than 500kg.

Would I be ok towing him in it with this trailer and car just on a B licence? I've tried to work it out and I think I can but my dad isn't too convinced. Help! 

Thank you 

Click to expand...

If there is no visible plate on the trailer then the total of the tyre load ratings - http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating - will be used as the MAM for the trailer 

What is the total of the tyre load ratings?

If the trailer MAM is 1580kg or less then its legal for B towing

The lower figure between the trailer MAM and the towing capacity is used as the maximum actual weight that can be towed behind the car


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## Cheshire Chestnut (24 January 2015)

ROG said:



			If there is no visible plate on the trailer then the total of the tyre load ratings - http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating - will be used as the MAM for the trailer 

What is the total of the tyre load ratings?

If the trailer MAM is 1580kg or less then its legal for B towing

The lower figure between the trailer MAM and the towing capacity is used as the maximum actual weight that can be towed behind the car
		
Click to expand...

Thank you very much. Puts my mind at ease. Going to look at the tyres on Monday before we buy it. I have a feeling the total MAM of the trailer is only 1400kg as its a small pony trailer and it's not that big. 

Thank you again


----------



## ROG (24 January 2015)

Cheshire Chestnut said:



			Thank you very much. Puts my mind at ease. Going to look at the tyres on Monday before we buy it. I have a feeling the total MAM of the trailer is only 1400kg as its a small pony trailer and it's not that big. 

Thank you again 

Click to expand...

Although the original plated MAM was 1400, without the plate it comes down to the tyre load ratings total, which is going to be well over 1400

Will you have the serial number of the trailer? - may be on it elsewhere and not just on the plate


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## ROG (24 January 2015)

You might ask Nugent Trailers - Chris on: 01564 792 337 - if they can help with a new plate for a Rice trailer = IDEA


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## Cheshire Chestnut (26 January 2015)

Hi ROG, 

to further my post about the new trailer 2 days ago, here's a photo of the only plate we can find: https://www.flickr.com/photos/112093906@N08/16184668160/

And the tyres: https://www.flickr.com/photos/112093906@N08/16184668200/in/photostream/

Does any of that help? Thank you and sorry for being useless


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## Cheshire Chestnut (26 January 2015)

It's just I'm confused if the bit that says 500kg - 2600kg is the MAM as it's a tiny pony trailer and couldn't imagine two big horses fitting in it making it up to 2600kg :-/ The trailer weighs approx 655kg apparently according to Rice's weights when they made the trailers so I'm totally confused! Help!


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## ROG (26 January 2015)

Cheshire Chestnut said:



			It's just I'm confused if the bit that says 500kg - 2600kg is the MAM as it's a tiny pony trailer and couldn't imagine two big horses fitting in it making it up to 2600kg :-/ The trailer weighs approx 655kg apparently according to Rice's weights when they made the trailers so I'm totally confused! Help! 

Click to expand...

There is a tyre load rating very small on the side wall which states single or twin but I cannot read it in the photo so could you post what that says please

Is your trailer single or twin wheeled?

The 500 to 2600 is likely to be the over-run braking range but is certainly not the MAM


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## Cheshire Chestnut (26 January 2015)

The trailer has two wheels on each side and says on the tyre: 
Load range D

Max load ginle: 670kg
Max load dual: 670kg

Does that mean anything?


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## Cheshire Chestnut (26 January 2015)

Sorry typo, that was meant to say single. not ginle!


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## ROG (26 January 2015)

Cheshire Chestnut said:



			The trailer has two wheels on each side and says on the tyre: 
Load range D

Max load ginle: 670kg
Max load dual: 670kg

Does that mean anything?
		
Click to expand...

OH YES = thanks

Your trailer has a MAM of 2680kg so illegal to tow on a B licence

You cannot get a new plate because the company that made it have gone out of business and the records are no more

Only the manufacturer or company that took them over can issue a weight plate for it

Solution = get another trailer


----------



## Cheshire Chestnut (26 January 2015)

ROG said:



			OH YES = thanks

Your trailer has a MAM of 2680kg so illegal to tow on a B licence

You cannot get a new plate because the company that made it have gone out of business and the records are no more

Only the manufacturer or company that took them over can issue a weight plate for it

Solution = get another trailer
		
Click to expand...


Thank you ROG - we didn't buy it in the end, thank you very much - saved us buying the wrong one  At least I know what to look for next time - the search continues!! Much appreciated


----------



## ROG (26 January 2015)

Cheshire Chestnut said:



			Thank you ROG - we didn't buy it in the end, thank you very much - saved us buying the wrong one  At least I know what to look for next time - the search continues!! Much appreciated 

Click to expand...

With a GVW not more than 2000 you have quite a choice because most trailers under 800kg empty can be down plated to 1500 as long as the manufacturer is still trading leaving you will a trailer payload of 700 or more


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## Cheshire Chestnut (28 January 2015)

One last question from me (so sorry ROG - you're worth your weight in gold), this is the plate for a Cheval Liberte double trailer, made in 2001 and it's the 2000/4 model. Below is a photo of the plate and it's all in French! Cheval said they can downplate it to 1400kg for me from 2000kg, however would you say the stamped weight (that either looks like 650kg or 690kg) is the empty weight? 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/112093906@N08/16202764248/

Again, thank you and sorry x


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## ROG (29 January 2015)

Cheshire Chestnut said:



			One last question from me (so sorry ROG - you're worth your weight in gold), this is the plate for a Cheval Liberte double trailer, made in 2001 and it's the 2000/4 model. Below is a photo of the plate and it's all in French! Cheval said they can downplate it to 1400kg for me from 2000kg, however would you say the stamped weight (that either looks like 650kg or 690kg) is the empty weight? 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/112093906@N08/16202764248/

Again, thank you and sorry x
		
Click to expand...

That seems a bit too light for the empty weight - I would check that using a weighbridge
These are the current models at 2000 MAM = http://www.chevaltrailers.co.uk/double-horse.html

Why down plate to 1400 when you can have 1500 with your 1920 GVW vehicle?


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## Cheshire Chestnut (29 January 2015)

Looks like I made a mistake and this is the model of my car: http://www.uktow.com/mobile/vehicle towing capacity.asp?make=Volkswagen&model=GOLF 2.0 SDI

At best even the single trailer is 485kg and the horse is 450kg so doesn't give me much wriggle room - looks like it will have to be a new car after all


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## ROG (29 January 2015)

Cheshire Chestnut said:



			Looks like I made a mistake and this is the model of my car: http://www.uktow.com/mobile/vehicle towing capacity.asp?make=Volkswagen&model=GOLF 2.0 SDI

At best even the single trailer is 485kg and the horse is 450kg so doesn't give me much wriggle room - looks like it will have to be a new car after all 

Click to expand...

That link shows nothing - oops yes it does in top left corner!!

Are you saying that the towing capacity of your car is not enough to accommodate the actual weight of empty trailer plus horse?

And the answer is yes because it states 1000kg so you are right - you need a car with more towing capacity


----------



## ROG (29 January 2015)

Apologies to *Cheshire Chestnut* because I forgot to ask about the towing capacity and wrongly assumed that you had checked it out


----------



## Jenbilla (2 February 2015)

Hi. Could someone please confirm if this is legal. I hope I have done my homework properly!!

Car is a 2005 skoda Octavia 2l hatchback AMBIENTE TDI PD 

 1 - I hold a 'b' License at the min but having lessons for b + e
 2 - Kerb weight -  1545
 3 - GVW - 2015
 4 - Towing capacity is 1400 braked. 650 unbraked
 5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres... (not sure what this is!!) Sorry.

 6 - Unladen trailer weight is 690. (lightweight rice farmhunt)

Will be used to transport 1 13.2hh pony approx. weight 400kg? 

Thanks in advance


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## ROG (2 February 2015)

Jenbilla said:



			Hi. Could someone please confirm if this is legal. I hope I have done my homework properly!!

Car is a 2005 skoda Octavia 2l hatchback AMBIENTE TDI PD 

 1 - I hold a 'b' License at the min but having lessons for b + e
 2 - Kerb weight -  1545
 3 - GVW - 2015
 4 - Towing capacity is 1400 braked. 650 unbraked
 5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres... (not sure what this is!!) Sorry.

 6 - Unladen trailer weight is 690. (lightweight rice farmhunt)

Will be used to transport 1 13.2hh pony approx. weight 400kg? 

Thanks in advance
		
Click to expand...

Number 5 is essential to know so I can give an answer

Is there a silver plate on the trailer with a figure on it probably between 1400 and 2500?

If no plate then the total of the tyre load ratings will be the MAM = http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating
Could be written on the trye side wall as max load single and max load twin


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## Jenbilla (2 February 2015)

I will have a look on the trailer tomorrow when I am at the yard to get those details. Thanks for such a prompt reply.


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## ROG (2 February 2015)

Jenbilla said:



			I will have a look on the trailer tomorrow when I am at the yard to get those details. Thanks for such a prompt reply.
		
Click to expand...

You need the plate or the tyre load ratings total to be no more than 1485kg to legally tow with that vehicle on a B licence

If MAM is higher than 1400 but not more than 1485 then the lower figure of 1400 is used so the max load for the trailer if 1400 will be 710kg
1400-690=710


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## lizstuguinness (4 February 2015)

1 - B with L plates, insurance and third person with B+E <3yrs
 2 - 
 3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
 4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
 5 - 2340
 6 - 905

Im afraid I cant seem to find the details on the log book for the other figures, nor on the web - but I found this: http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-figures/nissan/terrano/station-wagon-1993/11913/
(reg p648 pwp)

I also have a quick query about insurance if I may?
I have rang my insurance and spoke to a lovely chap that didn't have a clue what I was talking about. I wanted to know if my insurance covered me provisionally to learn to tow. I have fully comp. Although he assured me I could tow a trailer and be insured (the trailer only 3rd party) I was not sure if he fully understood what I was telling him - language barrier.
I don't suppose you know of the majority of insures will insure me to tow? I have written and asked for clarification in writing so we will see, but I wondered of you might have a general guidance on insurance? Im with admiral multi car

Thanks very much x


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## ROG (4 February 2015)

lizstuguinness said:



			1 - B with L plates, insurance and third person with B+E <3yrs
 2 - 
 3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
 4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
 5 - 2340
 6 - 905

Im afraid I cant seem to find the details on the log book for the other figures, nor on the web - but I found this: http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-figures/nissan/terrano/station-wagon-1993/11913/
(reg p648 pwp)

I also have a quick query about insurance if I may?
I have rang my insurance and spoke to a lovely chap that didn't have a clue what I was talking about. I wanted to know if my insurance covered me provisionally to learn to tow. I have fully comp. Although he assured me I could tow a trailer and be insured (the trailer only 3rd party) I was not sure if he fully understood what I was telling him - language barrier.
I don't suppose you know of the majority of insures will insure me to tow? I have written and asked for clarification in writing so we will see, but I wondered of you might have a general guidance on insurance? Im with admiral multi car

Thanks very much x
		
Click to expand...

number 4 = 2800 according to your link
You can load a max of 1435 into the trailer

I know nowt about insurers


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## Britskin (15 February 2015)

Hi Rog, I am thinking of buying a VW Tiguan TDI 140ps (Manual) to tow an Ifor HB505 Classic. Please can you tell be if the following will be acceptable:

1. B and E
2. 1665 car unladen weight
3. 2240 GVW of towing vehicle
4. 2200 GTW of vehicle
5. 2340 MAM
6. 1170 unladen weight of trailer

I will be towing a 14.2 and 15.2, so allow say 900kg for the girls inc water and hay (that sound about right?).  Tack will be in the car.

Thanks very much!


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## ROG (15 February 2015)

Britskin said:



			Hi Rog, I am thinking of buying a VW Tiguan TDI 140ps (Manual) to tow an Ifor HB505 Classic. Please can you tell be if the following will be acceptable:

1. B and E
2. 1665 car unladen weight
3. 2240 GVW of towing vehicle
4. 2200 TOWING CAPACITY (NOT GTW) of vehicle
5. 2340 MAM
6. 1170 unladen weight of trailer

I will be towing a 14.2 and 15.2, so allow say 900kg for the girls inc water and hay (that sound about right?).  Tack will be in the car.

Thanks very much!
		
Click to expand...

You can load 1030 max into the trailer - 2200 minus 1170 = 1030


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## km-j (15 February 2015)

ROG said:



			LEGAL as long as you put no more than 733kg into the trailer (1500-767=733)

If the trailer was down plated from 1600 to 1550 then it would also be legal for a B licence to tow
		
Click to expand...

If I changed to this,would it make much difference:

1) B&E
2) unladen weight 1344
3) GVW 1900
4)  Towing Capacity 1200
5) Trailer MAM 1600
6) unladen weight of trailer  767


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## Britskin (15 February 2015)

Thanks, that's great to know. This is a very helpful thread, thank you for taking the time out to answer our queries!


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## ROG (15 February 2015)

km-j said:



			If I changed to this,would it make much difference:

1) B&E
2) unladen weight 1344
3) GVW 1900
4)  Towing Capacity 1200
5) Trailer MAM 1600
6) unladen weight of trailer  767
		
Click to expand...

You can load 433 into that trailer 1200-767=433


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## OldNag (22 February 2015)

Trailer detectices, any ideas?

I am interested in a trailer advertised as a Rice suitable for 2 x 17hh . It looks to be fairly old. 

 I asked for the plate details and got sent a pic of what doesn't look like the weight plate, but it says "UW 419kg".  I am sure there is no way this could be the unladen weight of a trailer that big. Any ideas what this refers to?

. I have asked if there is a plate displaying unladen and gvw/mam. 

Thank you


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## ROG (22 February 2015)

OldNag said:



			Trailer detectices, any ideas?

I am interested in a trailer advertised as a Rice suitable for 2 x 17hh . It looks to be fairly old. 

 I asked for the plate details and got sent a pic of what doesn't look like the weight plate, but it says "UW 419kg".  I am sure there is no way this could be the unladen weight of a trailer that big. Any ideas what this refers to?

. I have asked if there is a plate displaying unladen and gvw/mam. 

Thank you
		
Click to expand...

Does seem too low for empty weight

UW has always referred to Unladen Weight


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## OldNag (22 February 2015)

ROG said:



			Does seem too low for empty weight

UW has always referred to Unladen Weight
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ROG it seems way under so I can't work out why it says that. It doesn't look like a standard weight plate either. Am waiting to see if I can get more info......


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## RunRunReindeer (27 February 2015)

(Sorry if this has been asked before).
My trailer's plated fully laden weight is 2300kg (Bateson Ascot) BUT I will only be towing up to 2000kg including trailer (925kg unladen) and two medium size horses (max 450kg each).
I'm currently looking for a new towing vehicle; does its max towing capacity have to meet that of my trailer's max PLATED fully laden weight (2300kg) or the ACTUAL laden weight (2000kg)?
Thanks!


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## ROG (27 February 2015)

RunRunReindeer said:



			(Sorry if this has been asked before).
My trailer's plated fully laden weight is 2300kg (Bateson Ascot) BUT I will only be towing up to 2000kg including trailer (925kg unladen) and two medium size horses (max 450kg each).
I'm currently looking for a new towing vehicle; does its max towing capacity have to meet that of my trailer's max PLATED fully laden weight (2300kg) or the ACTUAL laden weight (2000kg)?
Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of the vehicle must be able to accommodate the plated MAM of a trailer

You need a vehicle that has a towing capacity capable of towing the actual weight so 925+450+450=1825

B+E licence needed


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## Procrastination (3 March 2015)

Hi ROG,

Hope you don't mind me asking this, it's not horse related but is towing related! 

Recently got a tow bar fitted, I only have a B license at present so am aware I will need to pass my test before towing any horses as we have a heavy van. However, we also have a small trailer for taking things to the dump etc, just wondering if I am legal to tow this as I find the guidelines a little confusing! 

The gross vehicle weight of our van is 3000kg and the MAM of the trailer is 750kg. So the guidelines say on a B license you can tow a small trailer up to 750kg or a bigger trailer as long as GVW and trailer MAM don't exceed 3500kg. Where does that leave me? As the trailer falls in to the first category being 750kg but once you add that to the weight of the vehicle we are then over the 3500kg limit? It's all a bit unclear! 

So far I haven't seen anything that says you can tow a 750kg or less trailer on a B license provided you still don't go over 3500kg...so I think I'm ok to tow it??

Would appreciate your advice!

Thanks


----------



## ROG (3 March 2015)

Procrastination said:



			Hi ROG,

Hope you don't mind me asking this, it's not horse related but is towing related! 

Recently got a tow bar fitted, I only have a B license at present so am aware I will need to pass my test before towing any horses as we have a heavy van. However, we also have a small trailer for taking things to the dump etc, just wondering if I am legal to tow this as I find the guidelines a little confusing! 

The gross vehicle weight of our van is 3000kg and the MAM of the trailer is 750kg. So the guidelines say on a B license you can tow a small trailer up to 750kg or a bigger trailer as long as GVW and trailer MAM don't exceed 3500kg. Where does that leave me? As the trailer falls in to the first category being 750kg but once you add that to the weight of the vehicle we are then over the 3500kg limit? It's all a bit unclear! 

So far I haven't seen anything that says you can tow a 750kg or less trailer on a B license provided you still don't go over 3500kg...so I think I'm ok to tow it??

Would appreciate your advice!

Thanks 

Click to expand...

B licence can be used with a GVW of 3500 and a max trailer MAM of 750kg making a total of 4250kg

The 3500 rule kicks in when the trailer is over 750kg plated MAM


----------



## Procrastination (3 March 2015)

Ahhh I see! 

Smashing, thank you


----------



## firejenson (3 March 2015)

Been cracking my brain up with this towing malarkey and come to the conclusion I might just have to bite the bullet and do my B+E test.. What I was wondering would my Volvo V70 be sufficient to tow a trailer (have been looking the light weight ones or ifor 505 at the most) with maximum load of Welsh A (250kg) and 14.2 SHP (max 400kg) but more than likely most of the time just the Sec A on his own. Short distances, not looking more than 20 miles tops so ideally not wanting to swap the car to petrol guzzling 4x4


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## ROG (3 March 2015)

firejenson said:



			Been cracking my brain up with this towing malarkey and come to the conclusion I might just have to bite the bullet and do my B+E test.. What I was wondering would my Volvo V70 be sufficient to tow a trailer (have been looking the light weight ones or ifor 505 at the most) with maximum load of Welsh A (250kg) and 14.2 SHP (max 400kg) but more than likely most of the time just the Sec A on his own. Short distances, not looking more than 20 miles tops so ideally not wanting to swap the car to petrol guzzling 4x4
		
Click to expand...

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/volvo/v70/gross-vehicle-weight/ - not sure which yours is in that list but I am going to use a figure of 2300kg as the GVW

You could get a lightweight trailer such as a bateson derby which weighs 675 empty and have it down plated from 1700 to 1200 allowing for a horse of 525kg but thats about it for B towing (2300+1200=3500)

For what you need to tow you deffo need a B+E licence and a towing capacity of at least 1600kg
This is the list of towing capacities for the V70 = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/volvo/v70/towing-weight-limit/



You could driver yourself with a B+E set up under these rules ..........
*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


----------



## ROG (3 March 2015)

Just a thought .....

Your horses are 650kg total
The Bateson Derby is a mare and foal trailer I believe and it weighs 675 empty = http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1014

If you got something like a Skoda Octavia car - perhaps the 4x4 version - then that has a GVW of 2000 with a towing capacity about 2000

You could then down plate the trailer from its original 1700 to 1500 and have a trailer load weight of 825kg which is plenty for the 650 you need to transport

So ..... it is possible on a B licence .... you just need the right set up of car and trailer


----------



## firejenson (3 March 2015)

Thanks ROG, just checked the plate on my car and it reads (in the order displayed on the plate)

2100kg 
3900kg 
1- 1040 
2-1120


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## ROG (3 March 2015)

firejenson said:



			Thanks ROG, just checked the plate on my car and it reads (in the order displayed on the plate)

2100kg 
3900kg 
1- 1040 
2-1120
		
Click to expand...

AH ... we might be onto a winner ... lets see ....

GVW 2100
Towing capacity 1800

Max trailer plated MAM for B towing = 1400 (3500-2100=1400)

With that Bateson Derby trailer I mentioned earlier down plated from 1700 to 1400 it would leave 725kg for the trailer load/horses which is plenty for the total of 650 you stated your two weigh together leaving 75 spare

Many other trailers can also be down plated if the manufacturer is still trading but most others that can carry two are much heavier when empty so leaving less for the load
An HB505 506 510 511 would not work as they are too heavy when empty for example


----------



## firejenson (3 March 2015)

Ooooooh, it is starting to sound do'able!! Now starting the hunt for light weight trailer, I believe the Cheval Libertes are very light too? 

Thank you very very much!


----------



## firejenson (3 March 2015)

Looking at the figures, I think I might be "safer" going down the light weight route rather than taking the extra B+E test as towing something like 505 which would take me very near the cars towing limit?


----------



## ROG (3 March 2015)

Caol Ila said:



			I am sure I could look this up but I'm feeling lazy.

I signed up for a clinic with Mark Rashid in May, with the view that I have a couple months to work out how to transport horse to said clinic.  I have a B license and drive a 2005 Subaru Forester XT with a 2.0L petrol engine.  My horse is approximately 500kg.  What, if anything, can I tow?

(It still seems fundamentally wrong to my American brain that you can tow a horse with a Forester or anything else smaller than a mahoosive pickup truck, but I guess it is what people do over here.  eeep)
		
Click to expand...

http://www.autoevolution.com/cars/subaru-forester-2002.html#aeng_subaru-forester-2002-20-125-hp - if this is your vehicle then it states a GVW of 1880 and I assume a towing capacity of at least 1600

If you have the V5 keepers form handy please look up these two figures ....
Max permissible authorised mass = ????
Max braked towing weight = ????

Assuming my figures are correct then you can tow a trailer with a plated MAM weight of 1600 so that could mean a HB401 or 403 without the need to down plate and load your horse into it with loads to spare


----------



## ROG (3 March 2015)

firejenson said:



			Looking at the figures, I think I might be "safer" going down the light weight route rather than taking the extra B+E test as towing something like 505 which would take me very near the cars towing limit?

Ooooooh, it is starting to sound do'able!! Now starting the hunt for light weight trailer, I believe the Cheval Libertes are very light too? 

Thank you very very much!
		
Click to expand...

Cheval = http://www.chevaltrailers.co.uk/double-horse.html = too heavy empty

I think you are going to need the Derby - bit pricey second hand and rare because of the very reason you need it 
Might be worth looking at new and having it down plated before you buy = idea?


----------



## Caol Ila (3 March 2015)

ROG, the V5 says braked towable mass of trailer = 1950kg and unbraked is 740kg.  Is GVW what the V5 says is [Y] revenue weight?  If so, that is 1950kg.


----------



## RunRunReindeer (3 March 2015)

ROG said:



			There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of the vehicle must be able to accommodate the plated MAM of a trailer

You need a vehicle that has a towing capacity capable of towing the actual weight so 925+450+450=1825

B+E licence needed
		
Click to expand...

Sorry not to have popped back sooner. Thanks ROG


----------



## Springermad (3 March 2015)

Hi Rog, 
I have a volvo v40 1.9d estate (2003)
I have been trying to work out if I can legally tow a 15.3 cob ( 500kg) with the car and trailer ( IW505)

I am sure that the following figures are correct:

1. B+E
2.1280
3.1400
4.1800
5.2340
6.905

Thank You


----------



## ROG (4 March 2015)

Caol Ila said:



			ROG, the V5 says braked towable mass of trailer = 1950kg and unbraked is 740kg.  Is GVW what the V5 says is [Y] revenue weight?  If so, that is 1950kg.
		
Click to expand...

Need F1 max permissable mass and Q1 braked (kg)

Alternatively you could look at the weight plate on the vehicle which is usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame - need the top two figures of the four listed


----------



## ROG (4 March 2015)

Springermad said:



			Hi Rog, 
I have a volvo v40 1.9d estate (2003)
I have been trying to work out if I can legally tow a 15.3 cob ( 500kg) with the car and trailer ( IW505)

I am sure that the following figures are correct:

1. B+E
2.1280
3.1400
4.1800
5.2340
6.905

Thank You
		
Click to expand...

You can load 895 into the trailer
1800-905=895

Number 3 at 1400 GVW is deffo not correct but makes no difference to the answer


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## Springermad (4 March 2015)

Thank you very much for your reply. Really appreciate your help.

Not sure where that figure came from either!


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## AceAmara (9 March 2015)

a few years ago the local ifor williams place was telling people, me included that you could get your trailer plate down graded. For example (assuming B+E license in place) you are towing with a vehicle with a 2tonne towing capacity they said you had to get the trailer plate de-rated to 2 tonnes. Several years later interestingly  I have purchased a new trailer from them; my vehicle towing cap is 2700kg - trailer i looked at was plated at 3.5. The same chap now says Ifor are no longer changing plates as it isnt required, that with my tow vehicle i can legally tow this trailer (unladen weight around 1100kg) as long as the laden weight doesnt go above the 2700kg. Does this sound right? thanks!


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## gingerthing (9 March 2015)

Hello ROG! I have a nissan xtrail 2.2 dci sve and will be towing my 2001 model Ifor HB01 on a B license. Can you just confirm for me what weight  I need to down plate my trailer to?


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## ROG (9 March 2015)

AceAmara said:



			a few years ago the local ifor williams place was telling people, me included that you could get your trailer plate down graded. For example (assuming B+E license in place) you are towing with a vehicle with a 2tonne towing capacity they said you had to get the trailer plate de-rated to 2 tonnes. Several years later interestingly  I have purchased a new trailer from them; my vehicle towing cap is 2700kg - trailer i looked at was plated at 3.5. The same chap now says Ifor are no longer changing plates as it isnt required, that with my tow vehicle i can legally tow this trailer (unladen weight around 1100kg) as long as the laden weight doesn&#8217;t go above the 2700kg. Does this sound right? thanks!
		
Click to expand...

There has NEVER been a requirement to down plate a trailer to fit in with the vehicle towing capacity

Plenty of internet myths on this though ...............


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## ROG (9 March 2015)

gingerthing said:



			Hello ROG! I have a nissan xtrail 2.2 dci sve and will be towing my 2001 model Ifor HB01 on a B license. Can you just confirm for me what weight  I need to down plate my trailer to?
		
Click to expand...

I think the GVW for that model is 2170 kg but I need you to confirm it so please either locate the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame and give me the top figure of the four OR look on the V5 keepers doc and tell me what it states under max permissible gross weight

Assuming it is 2170 - lets say 2200 to make it easy - then the max trailer plated MAM for B towing is 1300 kg

What trailer do you have?


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## AceAmara (9 March 2015)

ROG said:



			There has NEVER been a requirement to down plate a trailer to fit in with the vehicle towing capacity

Plenty of internet myths on this though ...............
		
Click to expand...

thank you !


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## gingerthing (9 March 2015)

Hi ROG it's a Ifor Williams HB401, 2001 model. Haven't got my car docs on me until later but according to the Parker's website the max towing capacity is 2000kgs if that helps?


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## ROG (9 March 2015)

gingerthing said:



			Hi ROG it's a Ifor Williams HB401, 2001 model. Haven't got my car docs on me until later but according to the Parker's website the max towing capacity is 2000kgs if that helps?
		
Click to expand...

Towing capacity no help - need GVW

If my figure guess is correct then conact IFOR Williams to have it down plated from 1600 to 1300 - cost will be about £50 - you send them money and the plate off your trailer - they send you new plate so you can fix it on ...... may need a person with a drill and a pop rivet gun to help you

At 1300 with an empty weight of about 780 you will be able to load 520 into the trailer - what weight is your horse ?


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## gingerthing (9 March 2015)

Can make out gvw at 1515kgs, it's the sve model not the se, horse I'd say weighs around the 500kg mark


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## ROG (9 March 2015)

gingerthing said:



			Can make out gvw at 1515kgs, it's the sve model not the se, horse I'd say weighs around the 500kg mark
		
Click to expand...

1515 is the unladen/kerb/empty weight

With a 500 horse its going to be VERY tight weight wise


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## Blythwind (9 March 2015)

Hi ROG,
I have an Ifor Williams 401, and currently tow on a B licence with my Vauxhall Vectra.  However, the car is getting quite old now and will need replacing at some point this year.  I've tried to search the thread without luck, and wondered if you have a list of cars that are suitable to tow a 401 (downplated as necessary) on a B licence?  I know people used Ford MOndeos and Skoda Octavias.  Any thing else?
Thanks


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## ROG (9 March 2015)

Blythwind said:



			Hi ROG,
I have an Ifor Williams 401, and currently tow on a B licence with my Vauxhall Vectra.  However, the car is getting quite old now and will need replacing at some point this year.  I've tried to search the thread without luck, and wondered if you have a list of cars that are suitable to tow a 401 (downplated as necessary) on a B licence?  I know people used Ford MOndeos and Skoda Octavias.  Any thing else?
Thanks 

Click to expand...

there are hundreds of options so cannot really help

What is the trailer down plated to and how heavy is the horse ??

This was recently posted - https://forums-secure.horseandhound...ng-experts&p=12842026&viewfull=1#post12842026


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## JoJo_ (9 March 2015)

Would you be able to advise if the following is legal?

Vehicle: Landrover Freelander (I think its 2003)
Trailer: New IW 511 
Horse: 16.2-16.3HH must weigh about 700kg

My friend insists she has looked into what she can tow before buying a freelander and I shudder everytime I see her out and about. She reckons she can tow her horse but not two horses and her horse is a big warmblood.


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## ROG (9 March 2015)

JoJo_ said:



			Would you be able to advise if the following is legal?

Vehicle: Landrover Freelander (I think its 2003)
Trailer: New IW 511 
Horse: 16.2-16.3HH must weigh about 700kg

My friend insists she has looked into what she can tow before buying a freelander and I shudder everytime I see her out and about. She reckons she can tow her horse but not two horses and her horse is a big warmblood.
		
Click to expand...

What licence ..... B or B+E ?


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## JoJo_ (9 March 2015)

ROG said:



			What licence ..... B or B+E ?
		
Click to expand...

She didnt need to do a trailer license like I had to as passed her test before the law came into effect. Sorry not sure which she falls into!


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## ROG (9 March 2015)

Is it this freelander = http://www.helpfindmea.co.uk/cars/s...s-station-wagon-5dr-specifications-19556.aspx

With this trailer = http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1011

If yes then ..... 
B licence = no chance
B+E licence = ok to load trailer with 800 kg




JoJo_ said:



			She didnt need to do a trailer license like I had to as passed her test before the law came into effect. Sorry not sure which she falls into!
		
Click to expand...

Pre 1997 = B+E so ok


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## JoJo_ (9 March 2015)

ROG said:



			Is it this freelander = http://www.helpfindmea.co.uk/cars/s...s-station-wagon-5dr-specifications-19556.aspx

With this trailer = http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1011

If yes then ..... 
B licence = no chance
B+E licence = ok to load trailer with 800 kg



Pre 1997 = B+E so ok
		
Click to expand...

Looks about right. Must be just within the law when loaded up with tack etc. I'd personally be scared braking in a little 4x4 with a big trailer and horse behind me! Thanks ROG!


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## gingerthing (11 March 2015)

Hi ROG, I got my weights & car model all wrong! So here are my new figures;

On the vehicle ID plate for my nissan xtrail 2.2 dci SE it reads;

2050 kgs
4050kgs
1110kgs
1165kgs

Towing an Ifor Williams HB401R, this has an un laden weight of 935kgs, fully laden weight of 1600kgs. So if towing on a B license what would my trailer need to be downplated to?


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## ROG (11 March 2015)

gingerthing said:



			Hi ROG, I got my weights & car model all wrong! So here are my new figures;

On the vehicle ID plate for my nissan xtrail 2.2 dci SE it reads;

2050 kgs
4050kgs
1110kgs
1165kgs

Towing an Ifor Williams HB401R, this has an un laden weight of 935kgs, fully laden weight of 1600kgs. So if towing on a B license what would my trailer need to be downplated to?
		
Click to expand...

GVW 2050
Towing capacity 2000

Trailer MAM can be 1450 max 

Down plating from 1600 to 1450 with an empty weight of 935 means it can be loaded with 515 kg which is going to be very close for a horse around 500 kg

You certain the empty weight is 935 ????????????


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## gingerthing (11 March 2015)

Thanks! 

Yes checked plate again and it was definitely 935kgs unladen, my trailer is a 2001 model so unless it's heavier than the newer ones?


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## ROG (12 March 2015)

gingerthing said:



			Thanks! 

Yes checked plate again and it was definitely 935kgs unladen, my trailer is a 2001 model so unless it's heavier than the newer ones?
		
Click to expand...

I emailed IW just now and they state empty weight for 401R is deffo 770kg

I think you need to go empty to a weightbridge


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## gingerthing (12 March 2015)

Thanks ROG for that, yes I am going to get my combination weighed to be on the safe side. If 770kg is correct then what would my trailer need to be downplated to?


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## ROG (12 March 2015)

gingerthing said:



			Thanks ROG for that, yes I am going to get my combination weighed to be on the safe side. If 770kg is correct then what would my trailer need to be downplated to?
		
Click to expand...

The same as what I stated before

With a lower empty weight it means you can load more into it


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## Overgrown Pony (13 March 2015)

Hi ROG

Land Rover Freelander 2.2 TD4 XS 5dr - 2013
GVW 2505kg
Minimum kerb weight 1785kg
Tow capacity 2000kg
Horse is about 600kg

So the question is, is there any way I can legally tow on a B license?  

Many thanks in advance 

PS happy to get a lightweight eg Cheval Liberte mare & foal unladen is 650kg


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## ROG (13 March 2015)

Overgrown Pony said:



			Hi ROG

Land Rover Freelander 2.2 TD4 XS 5dr - 2013
GVW 2505kg
Minimum kerb weight 1785kg
Tow capacity 2000kg
Horse is about 600kg

So the question is, is there any way I can legally tow on a B license?  

Many thanks in advance 

PS happy to get a lightweight eg Cheval Liberte mare & foal unladen is 650kg
		
Click to expand...

No chance as the GVW of 2505 is way too high

It only allows for a trailer to be max plated at 995 kg so if the cheval trailer was plated at 995 with an empty weight about 650 then it leaves 345 for a horse


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## Overgrown Pony (13 March 2015)

Thought as much.  Will need to sit my test.  I'm confident to do it but it's all money money money :s

Big thanks ROG


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## ROG (13 March 2015)

Overgrown Pony said:



			Thought as much.  Will need to sit my test.  I'm confident to do it but it's all money money money :s

Big thanks ROG 

Click to expand...

Or change the towing vehicle ........


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## ROG (15 March 2015)

FrankieCob said:



			My friend is looking to buy a trailer to take mine and her horse out and has asked me to post as neither of us really have a clue! Anyway, this is the details:

I'm looking for advice regarding towing. I have a 1972 landrover series three, and am about to purchase a rice trailer. Will be transporting a 15hh and a 14.1hh cob, about 900kgs for the pair. I believe capacity and weight wise this won't take us close to the landrovers max. Is this correct? 

My dad enjoys grandfather rights on his licence but is the landrover going to be ok towing and more importantly braking this weight? I believe the rice trailers have their own brakes, but is it worth investing in an air/ coupled braking system? If so, how much will this cost? Are there any other ways to ensure a safer journey? Also any other considerations? I appreciate that this may not be the most cost efficient set up petrol wise, but it sure beats spending 85 pound a day hiring! Any advice/tips appreciated. Thanks
		
Click to expand...

I need you to do a few things so I can answer with a definitive

Find the weight plate on the vehicle which is usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame and post the top two of the four weights OR look on the V5 keepers doc and give my the max permissible mass weight and the max braked towing weight

On the trailer I need the top weight on the silver weight plate OR if not one then the tyre load ratings on the tyres = http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating

Do you have a B+E licence ?


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## Leo Walker (15 March 2015)

The v5 doesn't state anything against the towing info but the manual states unladen weight (kg) front axle 713, rear axle 635,  total 1338. EEC kerb weight front axle 751, rear axle 695, total 1446, gross vehicle weight front axle 930, rear axle 1190, total 2120

And yes, B+E licence

No info on the trailer, as she hasnt bought one yet, but is currently looking, hence the questions
Does that help?


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## ROG (15 March 2015)

FrankieCob said:



			The v5 doesn't state anything against the towing info but the manual states unladen weight (kg) front axle 713, rear axle 635,  total 1338. EEC kerb weight front axle 751, rear axle 695, total 1446, gross vehicle weight front axle 930, rear axle 1190, total 2120

And yes, B+E licence

No info on the trailer, as she hasnt bought one yet, but is currently looking, hence the questions
Does that help?
		
Click to expand...

Not much help

Front and rear axle weights will be greater than GVW to allow for load flexibility

What are the top two figures on the vehicle weight plate ?


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## pickwickayr (16 March 2015)

Hi ROG
I wonder if you can advise me.  My towing car is an Audi 1.9 A4 TDI estate Nov 2003 model.  The mass in service printed on V5 is 1624kg.
the plate under the bonnet has the followng weights 2010kg, 3655, 1075, 1075
According the the manufactur the GVW of my car is 2000kg and the towing capacity is 1600kg

My trailer weight is 800kg and the plated MAM is 1700kg. I have been to a weigh bridge fully loaded with trailer, pony, full car and the weight was 3.0tonnes. 

I would like to know if this combination is possible on B license? and if so what would I need to get the trailer downplated to? only ever tow 1 x 14.2 pony weighing around 450kg max


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## ROG (16 March 2015)

pickwickayr said:



			Hi ROG
I wonder if you can advise me.  My towing car is an Audi 1.9 A4 TDI estate Nov 2003 model.  The mass in service printed on V5 is 1624kg.
the plate under the bonnet has the followng weights 2010kg, 3655, 1075, 1075
According the the manufactur the GVW of my car is 2000kg and the towing capacity is 1600kg

My trailer weight is 800kg and the plated MAM is 1700kg. I have been to a weigh bridge fully loaded with trailer, pony, full car and the weight was 3.0tonnes. 

I would like to know if this combination is possible on B license? and if so what would I need to get the trailer downplated to? only ever tow 1 x 14.2 pony weighing around 450kg max
		
Click to expand...

GVW is 2010 kg as that is what is on the plate
That means you can have a trailer plated at 1490 kg max
As long as the manufacturer of your trailer is still trading then I would contact them and ask them to down plate it from 1700 to 1400 which would then allow you to load it with 600 kg and would allow you to tow it with any vehicle which had a GVW of not more than 2100 kg

Down plating usually involves you removing the plate then sending it with X amount of money to the manufacturer who then send you a new plate to fit on yourself 
You need a drill and a pop rivet gun or take it to someone that has them to do this for you


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## wench (18 March 2015)

Hopefully ROG will pick up on this one...

I've got to buy a "new" car shortly, and wondered if I could have some recommendations. 

I have a very small budget (approx £300) and would ideally like to get something I can tow my trailer with, and wondered wage sort of car might be suitable.

I am aware that a Mondeo will do what I want, but not entirely sure on old car reliability!

My trailer is approx 900kg and horse 500kg. The car is a temporary, so not planning on keeping it for years!


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## ROG (18 March 2015)

wench said:



			Hopefully ROG will pick up on this one...

I've got to buy a "new" car shortly, and wondered if I could have some recommendations. 

I have a very small budget (approx £300) and would ideally like to get something I can tow my trailer with, and wondered wage sort of car might be suitable.

I am aware that a Mondeo will do what I want, but not entirely sure on old car reliability!

My trailer is approx 900kg and horse 500kg. The car is a temporary, so not planning on keeping it for years!
		
Click to expand...

I cannot help with vehicle or trailer recommendations but I can help with a vehicle and trailer combination legalities once you know what you are thinking of getting
I would also need to know what licence the driver has - B or B+E


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## SadKen (23 March 2015)

I thought I had a high IQ until I started trying to work out if I could tow a HB506!

I've got a Tiguan 2.0 TDI 2009 4x4. I only want to tow one 14.2hh pony who weighs about 480kg, plus me, OH and tack. 

Here are my numbers:

1 &#8211; B+E (pre 1997)
2 &#8211; 1665kg
3 &#8211; 2240kg
4 &#8211; 2200kg
5 &#8211; Ifor 506 (I think this is 2600kg?)
6 &#8211; 920kg

Hopefully this makes sense and is OK! Thanks in advance Rog!


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## ROG (23 March 2015)

SadKen said:



			I thought I had a high IQ until I started trying to work out if I could tow a HB506!

I've got a Tiguan 2.0 TDI 2009 4x4. I only want to tow one 14.2hh pony who weighs about 480kg, plus me, OH and tack. 

Here are my numbers:

1 &#8211; B+E (pre 1997)
2 &#8211; 1665kg
3 &#8211; 2240kg
4 &#8211; 2200kg
5 &#8211; Ifor 506 (I think this is 2600kg?)
6 &#8211; 920kg

Hopefully this makes sense and is OK! Thanks in advance Rog!
		
Click to expand...

You can load 1280 kg into the trailer (2200-920=1280)

The weight of the people go into the vehicle GVW not the trailer MAM etc unless you are putting people in the trailer !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## SadKen (23 March 2015)

Tempting sometimes, but no, I probably wouldn't get away with that!

Thanks - it seems simple now you've said.


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## ROG (23 March 2015)

SadKen said:



			Tempting sometimes, but no, I probably wouldn't get away with that!

Thanks - it seems simple now you've said.
		
Click to expand...

That is why I am here - to make this issue simple instead of the somewhat confusing and inaccurate info that the GOV put on the internet


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## mizzbiz (26 March 2015)

I do intend to do my test but I have parental units with grandfather rights so can always use their 'supervision' and L plates if worst comes to worst BUT looking at buying a Skoda Octavia as a little birdy told me I may be able to tow on a B licence...

Weight and Capacities
Gross vehicle weight	2018 kg		 
Max loading weight	638 kg	 
Max towing weight - braked	2000 kg	
Max towing weight - unbraked	720 kg	
Unladen weight	1380 kg	

Am I right in thinking I can have a trailer up to 1500kg with this as my towing vehicle? Can you give me an example with a standard IW 510? Or is there a lighter trailer I could go for that would work?

In an ideal world it'll be 2 small ponies (one 14hh and one 15hh) but if on my B licence I can only take one I can live with that and drag folks along if both are going out?

Any help or advice would be appreciated! I can't get my head around all this stuff!


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## ROG (26 March 2015)

mizzbiz said:



			I do intend to do my test but I have parental units with grandfather rights so can always use their 'supervision' and L plates if worst comes to worst BUT looking at buying a Skoda Octavia as a little birdy told me I may be able to tow on a B licence...

Weight and Capacities
Gross vehicle weight	2018 kg		 
Max loading weight	638 kg	 
Max towing weight - braked	2000 kg	
Max towing weight - unbraked	720 kg	
Unladen weight	1380 kg	

Am I right in thinking I can have a trailer up to 1500kg with this as my towing vehicle? Can you give me an example with a standard IW 510? Or is there a lighter trailer I could go for that would work?

In an ideal world it'll be 2 small ponies (one 14hh and one 15hh) but if on my B licence I can only take one I can live with that and drag folks along if both are going out?

Any help or advice would be appreciated! I can't get my head around all this stuff!
		
Click to expand...

What weight are the ponies ?

You can have a trailer plated at 1482 kg max (1482+2018=3500) on a B licence

when I know what weight is of ponies I can then advise further


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## mizzbiz (26 March 2015)

I haven't stuck either on a weigh bridge but I'd guess 500kg at the most?


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## ROG (26 March 2015)

One more point - the trailer MAM plate cannot be changed at will as it needs to go through the manufacturer to be changed either up or down so this means if you have it plated down for B towing with one horse it cannot suddenly be changed up to acomodate two horses

What I am hoping is that yours are so light that you can tow both on a B licence


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## ROG (26 March 2015)

mizzbiz said:



			I haven't stuck either on a weigh bridge but I'd guess 500kg at the most?
		
Click to expand...

EACH ?


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## mizzbiz (26 March 2015)

Yes each, they're both cobs, 15hh is a lot more lightweight than the 14hh though. Maybe I need to get the tape out! The 15hh is what I'd want to take out if I was only able to take one.


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## ROG (26 March 2015)

mizzbiz said:



			Yes each, they're both cobs, 15hh is a lot more lightweight than the 14hh though. Maybe I need to get the tape out! The 15hh is what I'd want to take out if I was only able to take one.
		
Click to expand...

Even if they weighed 450 each then that is a total of 900 so impossible to tow both together on a B licence as no trailer is light enough

You have a choice to make

either get a down plated trailer to take one for B towing or get a two horse trailer and drive under B+E provisional or full licence rules


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## ROG (26 March 2015)

This is the trailer I recommend for B towing = http://www.batesontrailers.com/product/horse-trailers/derby-lightweight-horse-pony/ especially as it can be down plated for a tenner
that trailer weighs 675 empty and can be down plated from 1700 to 1475 by contacting the manufacturer leaving 800 kg max for the trailer load

Not sure on this but it could be that it can take two if up plated in the future - call Bateson to find out if your two will fit


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## mizzbiz (26 March 2015)

I thought that would be the case! If I drive under the provisional rules until I take my test that's fine.

Back to the skoda octavia then, what spec do I need from a trailer to be legal (and safe!)? When you say the "trailer plating" is that referring to the "capacity"?

EG

Deauville trailer spec

Gross weight 2300	 
Unladen weight 860	
Capacity 1440


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## mizzbiz (26 March 2015)

ROG said:



			This is the trailer I recommend for B towing = http://www.batesontrailers.com/product/horse-trailers/derby-lightweight-horse-pony/ especially as it can be down plated for a tenner
that trailer weighs 675 empty and can be down plated from 1700 to 1475 by contacting the manufacturer leaving 800 kg max for the trailer load

Not sure on this but it could be that it can take two if up plated in the future - call Bateson to find out if your two will fit
		
Click to expand...



Ah this makes sense! Not sure pony would appreciate rear unloading though! Are there any makes that are lighter weight with a front unload? Or if i just stick with the provisional B+E rules for now I can go with any right? Eg. the Deaville?


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## ROG (26 March 2015)

mizzbiz said:



			Ah this makes sense! Not sure pony would appreciate rear unloading though! Are there any makes that are lighter weight with a front unload? Or if i just stick with the provisional B+E rules for now I can go with any right? Eg. the Deaville?
		
Click to expand...

Under B+E rules you just need to make sure that the empty weight of the trailer plus the weight of what you put in the trailer does not total more than either the towing capacity of the vehicle (2000) or the plated MAM (????) of the trailer

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner

The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## mizzbiz (26 March 2015)

Fantastic, thank you so much for you help


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## ROG (26 March 2015)

Under B+E rules you just need to make sure that the empty weight of the trailer plus the weight of what you put in the trailer does not total more than either the towing capacity of the vehicle (2000) or the plated MAM (????) of the trailer

I should have added - whichever is the lower figure

If towing capacity is 2000 and trailer MAM 2340 then you go by 2000
If towing capacity is 2000 and trailer MAM 1700 then you go by 1700


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## ROG (29 March 2015)

SKODA OCTAVIA
Weight and Capacities
Gross vehicle weight	2018 kg	
Max loading weight	638 kg	
Max towing weight - braked 2000 kg	
Max towing weight - unbraked	720 kg	
Unladen weight	1380 kg

DEAUVILLE TRAILER 
Gross weight 2300	
Unladen weight 860	
Capacity 1440

B licence towing rules
Trailer would need to be down plated by manufacturer from 2300 to 1482 kg max
That would leave a max of 622 kg for the trailer load/horse (1482-860=622)

B+E licence towing rules
No need to down plate trailer
Max load/horse for trailer would be 1140 kg (2000-860=1140)


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## Echo24 (30 March 2015)

Hopefully I have done this right, apologies if not as still getting my head around it all! 

1 - B licence
2 - Peugeot 5008 Unladen weight 1430kg
3 - GVW 2250kg
4 - Max towing weight - unbraked 750kg
5 - Chevre Liberte GT1 single trailer Plated MAM 1400kg
6 - Unladen weight 655kg

Thanks!


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## ROG (30 March 2015)

Echo24 said:



			Hopefully I have done this right, apologies if not as still getting my head around it all! 

1 - B licence
2 - Peugeot 5008 Unladen weight 1430kg
3 - GVW 2250kg
4 - Max towing weight - unbraked 750kg
5 - Chevre Liberte GT1 single trailer Plated MAM 1400kg
6 - Unladen weight 655kg

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

1400+2250=3650 which is 150 too high for B towing max of 3500

You need to contact cheval and arrange to down plate the trailer to 1250 which would then leave you with a max trailer load of 595 kg

You do not give the max braked towing weight for the car but it should be at least 1250 - needs to be checked to be certain


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## ROG (30 March 2015)

http://www.cheval-liberte.co.uk/contact.htm 
Use that link to contact Cheval for down plating from 1400 to 1250
Have receipt ready
Cost is £25 
You send them cash and plate
They send you new plate


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## Echo24 (30 March 2015)

Thanks for that! Sorry it is 750kg unbraked and 1200kg braked, would that still be okay?


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## ROG (30 March 2015)

Echo24 said:



			Thanks for that! Sorry it is 750kg unbraked and 1200kg braked, would that still be okay?
		
Click to expand...

Down plate trailer to 1250 but with only a 1200 towing capacity it reduces the trailer load to a max of 545 kg - providing the empty weight of the trailer is correct - sometimes its advisable to weighbridge it empty to be certain

What sort of terrain will you be towing on?


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## Echo24 (30 March 2015)

Thanks, pony is only 400kg but obviously need to be careful. I'll probably be mostly on motorways and country lanes with not too many fields and off roading!


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## ROG (30 March 2015)

Echo24 said:



			Thanks, pony is only 400kg but obviously need to be careful. I'll probably be mostly on motorways and country lanes with not too many fields and off roading!
		
Click to expand...

Normal type roads should not cause you any issues


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## Echo24 (30 March 2015)

That's great, thank you so much for your help and advice!


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## ROG (30 March 2015)

Echo24 said:



			That's great, thank you so much for your help and advice!
		
Click to expand...

No probs

You now need someone with a drill and a pop rivet gun


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## Echo24 (30 March 2015)

Hi ROG. Sorry just seen another chev trailer with an unladen weight of 720kg and max gross weight of 1600kg, am I still able to downplate and tow within the limits?


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## googol (30 March 2015)

Are there any reliable websites for checking the braked towing capacity ?
We are looking for something to tow minimum 2500kg, looks like the only suitable vehicles are -
Land Rover discovery/Range Rover 
Shogun
Older sorentos 
X5
Nissan x trail

Anything else suitable that anyone tows that sort of weight with?


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## ROG (31 March 2015)

Echo24 said:



			Hi ROG. Sorry just seen another chev trailer with an unladen weight of 720kg and max gross weight of 1600kg, am I still able to downplate and tow within the limits?
		
Click to expand...

You can do the same as the other trailer but will have less weight load availability in trailer as the empty weight is higher


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## ROG (31 March 2015)

googol said:



			Are there any reliable websites for checking the braked towing capacity ?
We are looking for something to tow minimum 2500kg, looks like the only suitable vehicles are -
Land Rover discovery/Range Rover 
Shogun
Older sorentos 
X5
Nissan x trail

Anything else suitable that anyone tows that sort of weight with?
		
Click to expand...

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_vehicles.htm
In the box that says - All vehicles capable of towing - put 2500 in it


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## Echo24 (31 March 2015)

Ah okay, thanks ROG!


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## Echo24 (1 April 2015)

Oh no, just seen the latest brochure for the peugeot 5008 and the max braked towing weight is only 900kg which means I can only tow a pony that weighs 245kg! Back to looking for that elusive 3.5ton horsebox!


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## ROG (1 April 2015)

Echo24 said:



			Oh no, just seen the latest brochure for the peugeot 5008 and the max braked towing weight is only 900kg which means I can only tow a pony that weighs 245kg! Back to looking for that elusive 3.5ton horsebox! 

Click to expand...

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/peugeot/5008/towing-weight-limit/

Which model is yours in that link ?


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## Echo24 (1 April 2015)

It's the first one, the 1.6 HDi Access 5dr. It's a work car and a colleague tows a caravan but her licence is pre 1997.


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## ROG (1 April 2015)

Echo24 said:



			It's the first one, the 1.6 HDi Access 5dr. It's a work car and a colleague tows a caravan but her licence is pre 1997.
		
Click to expand...

Must be a light caravan !!


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## Suffolkangel (1 April 2015)

Hi Rog, sorry if this has been asked before. I am looking to take my trailer test, but in the mean time would I be able to tow on a B licence with the following combination: Octavia 4x4 estate, with a Sinclair trailer? Trailer has an unladen weight of 750kg & max loaded of 2000kg. I only want to travel 1pony weighing 400kg until I pass my test.


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## Echo24 (1 April 2015)

ROG said:



			Must be a light caravan !!
		
Click to expand...

Possibly! Will grill her tomorrow!


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## ROG (2 April 2015)

Suffolkangel said:



			Hi Rog, sorry if this has been asked before. I am looking to take my trailer test, but in the mean time would I be able to tow on a B licence with the following combination: Octavia 4x4 estate, with a Sinclair trailer? Trailer has an unladen weight of 750kg & max loaded of 2000kg. I only want to travel 1 pony weighing 400kg until I pass my test.
		
Click to expand...

I need the GVW for the vehicle which is the top figure of four on the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame and is on the V5 keepers form under - max permissible weight

As the GVW of the Octavia is likely to be about 2000 and the trailer is plated at 2000 then its going to be too much as your limit is 3500 max total plated weights

You would need to down plate the trailer via contact with the manufacturer and I am not certain if Sinclair are still trading

Thee simple answer is therefore NO at this moment but this may be an option = 
*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## Suffolkangel (2 April 2015)

Thank you.  Will have to try and get my test done sooner


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## avthechav (2 April 2015)

Hi ROG, I have just finished a CAT C driving course with Phil Brown's LGV driver training in Droitwich and they were completely fab. When I asked you, you said that you had not had experience or heard of them but just wanted to give you a recommendation for them in case anyone wanted to know good places in Worcestershire .


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## ROG (2 April 2015)

avthechav said:



			Hi ROG, I have just finished a CAT C driving course with Phil Brown's LGV driver training in Droitwich and they were completely fab. When I asked you, you said that you had not had experience or heard of them but just wanted to give you a recommendation for them in case anyone wanted to know good places in Worcestershire .
		
Click to expand...

I will quote this on the HHO LGV CLINIC


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## Echo24 (2 April 2015)

Sorry me again ROG, would I be able to tow with the Peugeot 5008 if I took the B+E test as I won't need to down plate the trailer?


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## ROG (2 April 2015)

Echo24 said:



			Sorry me again ROG, would I be able to tow with the Peugeot 5008 if I took the B+E test as I won't need to down plate the trailer?
		
Click to expand...

It would make no difference as having B+E does not increase the vehicle towing capacity


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## Echo24 (2 April 2015)

Okay, thanks for all your help.


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## Echo24 (2 April 2015)

May have cracked it now with OH's car, if I have got my numbers right:

1 - B licence
2 - Unladen weight 1320kg
3 - GVW 1795kg
4 - Max towing weight - braked 1300kg unbraked 500kg
5 - Chevre Liberte GT1 single trailer Plated MAM 1400kg
6 - Unladen weight 655kg


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## ROG (3 April 2015)

Echo24 said:



			May have cracked it now with OH's car, if I have got my numbers right:

1 - B licence
2 - Unladen weight 1320kg
3 - GVW 1795kg
4 - Max towing weight - braked 1300kg unbraked 500kg
5 - Chevre Liberte GT1 single trailer Plated MAM 1400kg
6 - Unladen weight 655kg
		
Click to expand...

Max load for trailer = 645kg
No need to down plate

You are ok legally on a B licence


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## Echo24 (3 April 2015)

Yay! Thank you! A place locally is getting the trailer in stock in a couple of weeks so will persuade OH to let me use his car  I will leave you alone now!


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## ROG (3 April 2015)

Echo24 said:



			Yay! Thank you! A place locally is getting the trailer in stock in a couple of weeks so will persuade OH to let me use his car  I will leave you alone now!
		
Click to expand...

Glad we got you sorted

Towing on normal road surfaces should not be an issue but beware if going off good surfaces or maybe up very steep hills to start with as its only a basic tow vehicle and not a 4x4 etc


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## rising_promise (10 April 2015)

Hi Rog,

I'm sure I know the answer to this but just to be sure....

I have my B + E so not worried about that side of things.

Sorento weighs 2000kg
GVW 2700kg
3000kg max towing capacity
Equitrek weighs 1100kg
MAM of 2500kg

This means I can load the Equitrek with 1400kg right?


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## ROG (10 April 2015)

rising_promise said:



			hi rog,

i'm sure i know the answer to this but just to be sure....

I have my b + e so not worried about that side of things.

Sorento weighs 2000kg
gvw 2700kg
3000kg max towing capacity
equitrek weighs 1100kg
mam of 2500kg

this means i can load the equitrek with 1400kg right?
		
Click to expand...

correct


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## rising_promise (10 April 2015)

ROG said:



			correct
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog. I often carry 2 who weigh 1000kg between them (just had them weighed) so just wanted to make sure we were all legal


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## EmmasMummy (10 April 2015)

Is this permissible under a B cat license??

1 - B licence
2 - Unladen weight 1430kg
3 - GVW 1969kg
4 - Max towing weight - braked 1300kg unbraked 750kg
5 - HB403 single trailer down Plated MAM to 1400kg from 1600kg
6 - Unladen weight 767kg


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## ROG (10 April 2015)

EmmasMummy said:



			Is this permissible under a B cat license??

1 - B licence
2 - Unladen weight 1430kg
3 - GVW 1969kg
4 - Max towing weight - braked 1300kg unbraked 750kg
5 - HB403 single trailer down Plated MAM to 1400kg from 1600kg
6 - Unladen weight 767kg
		
Click to expand...

Sorry a bit late answering as I was sunbathing !!

Perfectly legal for B licence (1969+1400=3369) so under the 3500 allowed

Max you can load in trailer = 533kg (1300-767=533)


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## YoungEventer (11 April 2015)

Sorry if I've missed anything, thanks in advance!

1 - B + E
2 - 1530kg
3 - 2080kg
4 - 1500kg
5 - 2340kg (Not sure what MAM is.. presuming its just the max gross weight? http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1063)
6 - 905


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## ROG (12 April 2015)

YoungEventer said:



			Sorry if I've missed anything, thanks in advance!

1 - B + E
2 - 1530kg
3 - 2080kg
4 - 1500kg
5 - 2340kg (Not sure what MAM is.. presuming its just the max gross weight? http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1063)
6 - 905
		
Click to expand...

You can load a max of 595 kg into the trailer (1500-905=595)

All your figures are spot on - thank you


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## YoungEventer (12 April 2015)

Awesome, thankyou!


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## ROG (16 April 2015)

A1dexter said:



			Hi there,

 I have recently purchased a trailer and collect it on Saturday. I have read up on the laws but can't seem to make 100% sense of them and obviously want to be legal!

 So, I passed my driving test after 1997 so will be required to hold my B+E license in order to drive it alone. My question relates to driving with someone who holds a license pre 1997 -

 If I am in the car with someone who passed their test in 1990 (but hasn't since done a separate test for towing) can I drive legally with L plates displayed? On a separate note, if the answer to the above question is yes, can I drive on the motorway?

 I aim to complete the B+E test later on in the year but would like to have some experience initially so I don't have to book as many days training as it is ridiculously priced!

 Apologies if this has been asked before - I did search the forum but couldn't find anything specific.

 Thanks in advance.      
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...aws-Urgent-advice-please!#ifMeTtrlrx0KdwoK.99

Click to expand...

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


You might still be able to tow one horse on your B licence but it depends on what vehicle and trailer you have

If you wish to explore this further then please post your exact model of vehicle and your trailer


----------



## A1dexter (16 April 2015)

ROG said:



*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


You might still be able to tow one horse on your B licence but it depends on what vehicle and trailer you have

If you wish to explore this further then please post your exact model of vehicle and your trailer
		
Click to expand...

Thank you so much.

I have specified to my insurer (of the car) that I will be towing a trailer and they said it wont affect the premium, and they know my age, date I passed my test etc so I guess that's enough?

To confirm, can I drive on the motorway with L plates with someone with a pre 97 license?

With regard to my vehicle, I think it will be too heavy but it is a Mitsubishi l200 and the trailer is an Ifor Williams 506.

Thanks again for your help!


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## ROG (16 April 2015)

A1dexter said:



			Thank you so much.

I have specified to my insurer (of the car) that I will be towing a trailer and they said it wont affect the premium, and they know my age, date I passed my test etc so I guess that's enough?

To confirm, can I drive on the motorway with L plates with someone with a pre 97 license?

With regard to my vehicle, I think it will be too heavy but it is a Mitsubishi l200 and the trailer is an Ifor Williams 506.

Thanks again for your help!
		
Click to expand...

That combination will be under B+E rules

I can confirm that is ok


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## A1dexter (16 April 2015)

ROG said:



			That combination will be under B+E rules

I can confirm that is ok
		
Click to expand...

sorry to sound thick...

But does that mean that I could tow 2 horses on my own without a B+E license?


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## ROG (16 April 2015)

A1dexter said:



			sorry to sound thick...

But does that mean that I could tow 2 horses on my own without a B+E license?
		
Click to expand...

NO

To confirm, can I drive on the motorway with L plates with someone with a pre 97 license?
I can confirm that is ok


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## Buckskinspots (16 April 2015)

I have a 54 plate nissan x trail 2.2 dci and an older trailer possibly bahill 800kg but no plate on. I have ordered a blank one so can get it down plated if needs be. I only have a b license as passed in 2002. Can I legally tow 1 550kg horse with this setup? What weight should down plate the trailer to? Thanks


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## Buckskinspots (16 April 2015)

Think I've worked it out, the gvw is 2050kg (will check tomorrow) so if I down plate the trailer to 1400kg I should be within the 3.5t limit also under the kerb weight of car which I think is 1500kg Will go to a weighbridge to check we are within the limit too. Is the 2t tow capacity relevant under this law too? Argh so confusing!!


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## ROG (17 April 2015)

Buckskinspots said:



			I have a 54 plate nissan x trail 2.2 dci and an older trailer possibly bahill 800kg but no plate on. I have ordered a blank one so can get it down plated if needs be. I only have a b license as passed in 2002. Can I legally tow 1 550kg horse with this setup? What weight should down plate the trailer to? Thanks
		
Click to expand...

You cannot get a new plate for a Bayhill as thet went out of business years ago

You need to total up all the tyre load ratings and that will be the MAM

No way can you tow that trailer on a B licence

Get a trailer where the manufacturer is still trading so you can down plate it

What is the GVW of the Xtrail - look on V5 keepers form under max permissible weight or the top figure of the 4 listed on the weight plate hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame

Lets say as an example that the GVW is 2200 so leaves a max MAM of 1300 for a trailer

For a 550 horse you would need a trailer which weighed no more than 750 empty

Bateson derby weight 675 empty and can be down plated from 1700 to 1300 for a tenner


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## ROG (17 April 2015)

Buckskinspots said:



			Think I've worked it out, the gvw is 2050kg (will check tomorrow) so if I down plate the trailer to 1400kg I should be within the 3.5t limit also under the kerb weight of car which I think is 1500kg Will go to a weighbridge to check we are within the limit too. Is the 2t tow capacity relevant under this law too? Argh so confusing!!
		
Click to expand...

towing capacity simply refers to the max actual weight the vehicle can tow

Still no good with that Bayhill trailer

2050 GVW means something like a HB401/3 which weighs max 800 empty and plated at 1600 can be down plated to 1400 for fifty quid and leaves 600+ for the horse


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## Spudpud (17 April 2015)

Hi, I started a separate thread as I'm not sure if it's quite relevant to your clinic but I would appreciate any views you may have on trailers on the market please, new/secondhand for ride comfort for the horse, build quality, suspension/towing, value for money. One horse, 16.1  b&e license, hilux to tow with. Thank you vey much.


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## ROG (17 April 2015)

Spudpud said:



			Hi, I started a separate thread as I'm not sure if it's quite relevant to your clinic but I would appreciate any views you may have on trailers on the market please, new/secondhand for ride comfort for the horse, build quality, suspension/towing, value for money. One horse, 16.1  b&e license, hilux to tow with. Thank you vey much.
		
Click to expand...

Its relevant as its trailer related but unfortunately I have no knowledge in this field


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## Janee (17 April 2015)

Sorry if this has been asked, explained before, what do you mean by "down plated" ?


----------



## ROG (17 April 2015)

Janee said:



			Sorry if this has been asked, explained before, what do you mean by "down plated" ?
		
Click to expand...

Down plating is where the legal top actual weight of a trailer and its load is reduced

For example a HB401 comes from the factory as 780 empty and plated at 1600 so it can carry 820
Down plate that from 1600 to 1400 and it can now only carry 620

The B licence towing rule states that the vehicle GVW (plated weight) added to the trailer MAM (plated weight) must not total more than 3500


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## Rides (22 April 2015)

Hi, wondering if you can clear something up! I need to downplate my trailer- an ifor. I know what i want to downplate it to etc, but it seems i have to jump through hoops to get a new plat sent out by ifor themselves, and my local dealer want £60 plus vat to sort it! Does the vin plate legally have to be provided by the manufacturer, or can i get one elsewhere? from what i've read all it HAS to display is the gvw- the serial number & other weights seem to be optional?


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## ROG (22 April 2015)

Rides said:



			Hi, wondering if you can clear something up! I need to downplate my trailer- an ifor. I know what i want to downplate it to etc, but it seems i have to jump through hoops to get a new plat sent out by ifor themselves, and my local dealer want £60 plus vat to sort it! Does the vin plate legally have to be provided by the manufacturer, or can i get one elsewhere? from what i've read all it HAS to display is the gvw- the serial number & other weights seem to be optional?
		
Click to expand...

As the only reason to down plate is for B licence towing then that I assume is why you need to do it

Simple enough to down plate  - contact IW 01490 412527 - they will want about £50 - you remove current plate and send it to them with the money - they send you new plate to fit on - you need a drill and a pop rivet gun

ONLY the trailer manufacturer can legally do this


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## Rides (22 April 2015)

OK thanks- i spoke to ifor before, they first want me to register the change of ownership ( i've just bought the trailer) including sending proof of purchase, which is a pain as i bought it private, once thats done they will send the new plate & yes us £40 + VAT. Just wanted to know if it legally had to be done by the manufatcurer- thanks


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## ROG (22 April 2015)

Rides said:



			OK thanks- i spoke to ifor before, they first want me to register the change of ownership ( i've just bought the trailer) including sending proof of purchase, which is a pain as i bought it private, once thats done they will send the new plate & yes us £40 + VAT. Just wanted to know if it legally had to be done by the manufatcurer- thanks
		
Click to expand...

Just get an email from the seller stating they sold it to you which should suffice - check with IW to confirm

Are you ok with the B licence towing rules ? - I assume yes


----------



## Rides (22 April 2015)

I do have a handwritten receipt so hoping a photo of that will suffice! just need to go back & get the chassis code as didnt know i needed that until i went to fill out the form. Yeah i am, thanks mainly to your thread plus a couple of confirmation emails from dvla!!

bmw 3 series 2045 GVW, ifor 401 downplating to 1455kg


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## ROG (22 April 2015)

Rides said:



			I do have a handwritten receipt so hoping a photo of that will suffice! just need to go back & get the chassis code as didnt know i needed that until i went to fill out the form. Yeah i am, thanks mainly to your thread plus a couple of confirmation emails from dvla!!

bmw 3 series 2045 GVW, ifor 401 downplating to 1455kg 

Click to expand...

Spot on - leaves about 675 for the trailer load

I might have gone for a MAM of 1350 just in case of getting a vehicle in future with a higher GVW - at 1350 it would still leave a trailer load weight of about 570


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## Rides (22 April 2015)

i need the payload unfortunately, towing a 16.2 hanoverian who could get to 650! so i will have to stick to the beemer lol


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## ROG (22 April 2015)

Rides said:



			i need the payload unfortunately, towing a 16.2 hanoverian who could get to 650! so i will have to stick to the beemer lol
		
Click to expand...

Feed it less apples and sugar lumps = LOL


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## Rides (22 April 2015)

i should- he grows too much & ill have to upgrade to one of the fancy new chevals that are bigger!


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## ROG (23 April 2015)

Dancing_Diva said:



			I'm looking at getting a single I-for Williams trailer and wondered if weight wise it would be ok to tow with a citroen exsarra picasso? I'd only be traveling a couple of Shetland ponies or a 13.2 new forest pony. 

Would it be possible or will I have to change cars too?
		
Click to expand...

Citroën Xsara Picasso 2.0 HDi LX 5d has a towing capacity of 1300 so if you have that model then you can load just over 500 kg into the trailer

What would be useful is the figures from the V5 keepers form 
Max braked towing weight = ?
Max permissible mass = ?

Alternatively please find the vehicle weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame and post the top two of the four figures

What licence will you be towing with - B or B+E ?


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## lauralouise (26 April 2015)

I'm hoping to be able to tow on my B licence.
I'm looking at the Kia Sportage CRDI VGT, I have done some research and the weight of the vehicle is 1842kg and the maximum towing weight is 1800kg.

I will be towing with a two horse Rice trailer that weighs 795kg, I will be towing one 14hh pony and maybe a Shetland also from time to time.

I think these figures are correct. So would this be legal? 
Thank you


----------



## ROG (26 April 2015)

lauralouise said:



			I'm hoping to be able to tow on my B licence.
I'm looking at the Kia Sportage CRDI VGT, I have done some research and the weight of the vehicle is 1842kg and the maximum towing weight is 1800kg.

I will be towing with a two horse Rice trailer that weighs 795kg, I will be towing one 14hh pony and maybe a Shetland also from time to time.

I think these figures are correct. So would this be legal? 
Thank you 

Click to expand...

Unfortunately none of those figures are useful

B licence towing goes on the total of the plated weights of the vehicle and trailer

I need to know the GVW of the vehicle and the plated weight of the trailer
see post number 2000 of this thread on how to find those


----------



## DJ (27 April 2015)

ROG, i`m trying to explain to someone about how it`s the plated weights that matter. They are using the government guidelines here (post 1997 but pre 2013) as "fact" that they can use any car and trailer, as long as the actual physical weight of car/trailer/horse are less than 3500kg (and NOT using the plated weights) ... I know this is wrong and if they get pulled by VOSA/Police they be in trouble, not to mention that their insurance would be invalid too  ... How else can I get explain it to them? and also isn`t it about time the government changed the way they word it? As it stands now it does look as though you only have to make sure the ACTUAL weight of it all comes in at less that 3.5t and not the plated weights of car and trailer combined.


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## ROG (28 April 2015)

DJ said:



			ROG, i`m trying to explain to someone about how it`s the plated weights that matter. They are using the government guidelines here (post 1997 but pre 2013) as "fact" that they can use any car and trailer, as long as the actual physical weight of car/trailer/horse are less than 3500kg (and NOT using the plated weights) ... I know this is wrong and if they get pulled by VOSA/Police they be in trouble, not to mention that their insurance would be invalid too  ... How else can I get explain it to them? and also isn`t it about time the government changed the way they word it? As it stands now it does look as though you only have to make sure the ACTUAL weight of it all comes in at less that 3.5t and not the plated weights of car and trailer combined.
		
Click to expand...

Show then this = https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208103/ins57p.pdf see pages 7 to 10

Inform them that much of what is on the internet is out dated and has errors

If they still insist on using actual weights then I would tell them that I will report them and get them stopped by police = bet that would make them wake up to what the law is and not what they think it is !!

It is a shame that the Gov do not say it as simply as I do .......
For B towing there is one extra law on top of all the usual towing laws and that is - the plated GVW of the towing vehicle added to the trailer plated MAM must not total more than 3500 kg


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## DJ (28 April 2015)

ROG said:



			Show then this = https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208103/ins57p.pdf see pages 7 to 10

Inform them that much of what is on the internet is out dated and has errors

If they still insist on using actual weights then I would tell them that I will report them and get them stopped by police = bet that would make them wake up to what the law is and not what they think it is !!

It is a shame that the Gov do not say it as simply as I do .......
For B towing there is one extra law on top of all the usual towing laws and that is - the plated GVW of the towing vehicle added to the trailer plated MAM must not total more than 3500 kg
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ROG. I have just spoken with the DVLA. I`ve escalated the way it`s worded as a complaint, and I have emailed it in writing too. I`ll be speaking with VOSA tomorrow to get written confirmation from them too in the hope that will help. I`ll put anything I get back on here. It`s actually quite shocking to find out just how many people have misinterpreted the way it is worded and are driving their beloved ponies about illegally and uninsured


----------



## DJ (28 April 2015)

ROG said:



			Show then this = https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208103/ins57p.pdf see pages 7 to 10

Inform them that much of what is on the internet is out dated and has errors

If they still insist on using actual weights then I would tell them that I will report them and get them stopped by police = bet that would make them wake up to what the law is and not what they think it is !!

It is a shame that the Gov do not say it as simply as I do .......
For B towing there is one extra law on top of all the usual towing laws and that is - the plated GVW of the towing vehicle added to the trailer plated MAM must not total more than 3500 kg
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ROG. I have just spoken with the DVLA. I`ve escalated the way it`s worded as a complaint, and I have emailed it in writing too. I`ll be speaking with VOSA tomorrow to get written confirmation from them too in the hope that will help. I`ll put anything I get back on here. It`s actually quite shocking to find out just how many people have misinterpreted the way it is worded and are driving their beloved ponies about illegally and uninsured


----------



## ROG (28 April 2015)

DJ said:



			Thanks ROG. I have just spoken with the DVLA. I`ve escalated the way it`s worded as a complaint, and I have emailed it in writing too. I`ll be speaking with VOSA tomorrow to get written confirmation from them too in the hope that will help. I`ll put anything I get back on here. It`s actually quite shocking to find out just how many people have misinterpreted the way it is worded and are driving their beloved ponies about illegally and uninsured 

Click to expand...

I have already emailed DVLA and emailed my MP who got in touch with the DfT - they state it is not correct and have left outdated legal info but have done nothing about it - that was over 6 months ago so do not hold your breath

DVSA (old DSA + VOSA) have nothing to do with it


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## ROG (3 May 2015)

george from pembs said:



			Sorry, not a horse owner, but your site seemed v. switched on.......

What is the Maximum allowable Train Weight for a Discovery pulling a 3500kg trailer??

Thanks in anticipation

George
		
Click to expand...

Which is yours from this list ? = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/land-rover/discovery/gross-vehicle-weight/

If none in that list then please post your exact model OR ....

You can look at the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame - top figure is GVW and second frpm top is GTW
GTW minus GVW = max towing capacity unless max braked towing weight listed on V5 keepers form states other

PS - what licence do you have? 
B or B+E


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## brummycraig (5 May 2015)

Hi

I have a Skoda Yeti 2.0l tdi CR 140 and have just purchased an ifor williams 505R, Still struggling to understand the math but hope the following will allow you to confirm for me

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE - BE(Pre 97)
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1530kg (Best info I could find online)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2075kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 4075/2000kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 2340kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 905kg

I pressume the max I could load onto the trailer would be 1095kg - but am I legal? and does weight loaded into the car have any effect?

Thanks in advance, and great thread btw.

Craig


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## ROG (5 May 2015)

brummycraig said:



			Hi

I have a Skoda Yeti 2.0l tdi CR 140 and have just purchased an ifor williams 505R, Still struggling to understand the math but hope the following will allow you to confirm for me

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE - BE(Pre 97)
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1530kg (Best info I could find online)
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2075kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 4075/2000kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 2340kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 905kg

I pressume the max I could load onto the trailer would be 1095kg - but am I legal? and does weight loaded into the car have any effect?

Thanks in advance, and great thread btw.

Craig
		
Click to expand...

You can load 545 into vehicle (2075-1530=545) and 1095 into the trailer (2000-905=1095)


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## brummycraig (5 May 2015)

ROG said:



			You can load 545 into vehicle (2075-1530=545) and 1095 into the trailer (2000-905=1095)
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for the quick response. Would I be right in thinking this combo couldn't be towed on a B license?

Craig


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## brummycraig (5 May 2015)

ROG said:



			You can load 545 into vehicle (2075-1530=545) and 1095 into the trailer (2000-905=1095)
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for the quick response. Would I be right in thinking this combo couldn't be towed on a B license?

Craig


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## ROG (5 May 2015)

brummycraig said:



			Thank you for the quick response. Would I be right in thinking this combo couldn't be towed on a B license?

Craig
		
Click to expand...

Not unless the trailer was down plated via contact with the manufacturer from 2340 to a max of 1425 (1425+2075=3500)
At 1425 the max load for the trailer would be 520 (1425-905=520)


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## Kungfoo-hamster (12 May 2015)

Hi 

I'm trying to work out what trailer I could get for towing safely behind my existing vehicle:-

I currently own a Dacia Duster 4x4 (2014 plate) diesel (1.5 engine?) 
I have a pre-1997 driving licence
I would like to tow one 15.2 cob (approx 500kg) and, occasionally another 15.2 horse as well, if possible.

I am looking for a secondhand trailer and would like some advice on what makes/models I should be looking at?

Thanks in advance


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## ROG (12 May 2015)

Kungfoo-hamster said:



			Hi 

I'm trying to work out what trailer I could get for towing safely behind my existing vehicle:-

I currently own a Dacia Duster 4x4 (2014 plate) diesel (1.5 engine?) 
I have a pre-1997 driving licence
I would like to tow one 15.2 cob (approx 500kg) and, occasionally another 15.2 horse as well, if possible.

I am looking for a secondhand trailer and would like some advice on what makes/models I should be looking at?

Thanks in advance 

Click to expand...

I cannot advise on makes and types of trailer as I know nothing about them - my expertise is on the laws of towing

Is it this model of Dacia? = http://www.dacia.co.uk/vehicles/duster/price-and-spec/

If it is then the max towing weight capacity is 1200 kg

If you had lightweight trailer such as a Bateson Derby which is 675 empty then with a 500 kg horse it would total 1175 so just within the max allowed - but that is very tight and if the horse was 30 kg heavier or there was 30 kg of other stuff in the trailer it would not work


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## ROG (12 May 2015)

If its not the Dacia in the last post then is it one of these = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/dacia/duster/towing-weight-limit/ ?


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## Kungfoo-hamster (12 May 2015)

Thanks 

Its the older model of Dacia so the specs aren't on the Dacia website but I think they are as follows 


Price/as tested: £13,695/£14,685
Engine: 1.5-litre 4cyl diesel
Power/torque: 108bhp/240Nm
Official economy: 53.3mpg
CO2/road tax: 135g/km/£125
Kerbweight: 1,294kg
Max towing weight: 1,500kg
30-60mph: 17.9 secs
40-60mph: 14.1 secs

Does this mean I have 1500kg towing capacity?  if so then I guess a lightweight trailer would be possible...looks like I am going to have to get my boy used to travelling on his own though


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## Kungfoo-hamster (12 May 2015)

Yes - its the Laureate from that list 4x4 diesel


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## ROG (12 May 2015)

Kungfoo-hamster said:



			Thanks 

Its the older model of Dacia so the specs aren't on the Dacia website but I think they are as follows 


Price/as tested: £13,695/£14,685
Engine: 1.5-litre 4cyl diesel
Power/torque: 108bhp/240Nm
Official economy: 53.3mpg
CO2/road tax: 135g/km/£125
Kerbweight: 1,294kg
Max towing weight: 1,500kg
30-60mph: 17.9 secs
40-60mph: 14.1 secs

Does this mean I have 1500kg towing capacity?  if so then I guess a lightweight trailer would be possible...looks like I am going to have to get my boy used to travelling on his own though 

Click to expand...

1500 will be the max actual weight limit that it can tow so yes horsey will be travelling alone unless you have a minature shetland to go with it

1500 opens up a few more trailer possibilities such as the HB401/3 at just under 800 empty leaving a 700 load for the trailer

The max empty trailer weight I would go for is 900 so it leaves at least 600 for the load


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## Cheshire Chestnut (12 May 2015)

ROG - can you please help me?  

The gross weight of the car: I have two gross weights. The only one in the log book says 1600kg gross weight under the revenue weight (but then says GROSS after it) with no other weight stamped in it anywhere else. 

However the tow websites such as caravan club, towing weights etc all say 2050kg. Also Hyundai's website says 2050kg too. (It's an ix35 2ltr diesel)

I 100% have the right model for what I'm looking at. I've done my trailer test now so it doesn't matter legal wise for towing, however I was wondering which one would be the official weight to go by? 

Thank you


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## ROG (12 May 2015)

Cheshire Chestnut said:



			ROG - can you please help me?  

The gross weight of the car: I have two gross weights. The only one in the log book says 1600kg gross weight under the revenue weight (but then says GROSS after it) with no other weight stamped in it anywhere else. 

However the tow websites such as caravan club, towing weights etc all say 2050kg. Also Hyundai's website says 2050kg too. (It's an ix35 2ltr diesel)

I 100% have the right model for what I'm looking at. I've done my trailer test now so it doesn't matter legal wise for towing, however I was wondering which one would be the official weight to go by? 

Thank you 

Click to expand...

Best advice is to look at the weight plate on the vehicle which is usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame

You need the top two of the four figures shown on that plate

The top figure is the GVW
The second larger figure is the GTW

Deduct the top GVW figure from the larger GTW figure which gives the max towing weight

No matter what the V5 or manufacturers state the plate on the vehicle is the legal one to go by


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## Cheshire Chestnut (12 May 2015)

ROG said:



			Best advice is to look at the weight plate on the vehicle which is usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame

You need the top two of the four figures shown on that plate

The top figure is the GVW
The second larger figure is the GTW

Deduct the top GVW figure from the larger GTW figure which gives the max towing weight

No matter what the V5 or manufacturers state the plate on the vehicle is the legal one to go by
		
Click to expand...

Thank you. I know the towing capacity weight, that is 2000kg but it was the gross weight of the actual vehicle that is causing some confusion. 

The V5 states the vehicle weighs 1600kg but the manifacturer's website says different. Didn't know how acurate V5's were. 

But I shall look on the plate and that should clear it up  Thank you.


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## Kayfamily (17 May 2015)

Hi can you tell me if this is a legal set up
Vauxhall Frontera the top 2 figures on the plate read 
2450
5250
Trailer is a Bateson Deuville gross weight on the plate is 2300kg. 
Pretty sure has to be a B&E licence but is the car legal to pull the trailer with 1 horse and 1 pony combined weights of about 850kg. Thanks


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## ROG (17 May 2015)

Kayfamily said:



			Hi can you tell me if this is a legal set up
Vauxhall Frontera the top 2 figures on the plate read 
2450
5250
Trailer is a Bateson Deuville gross weight on the plate is 2300kg. 
Pretty sure has to be a B&E licence but is the car legal to pull the trailer with 1 horse and 1 pony combined weights of about 850kg. Thanks
		
Click to expand...

2300+2450=4750 so deffo B+E as its over the 3500 B limit

5250-2450=2800 so the towing capacity is 2800

The max the trailer can actually weigh when loaded is 2300


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## Kayfamily (17 May 2015)

Thank you


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## patchwork puzzle (18 May 2015)

Hi, I have a LWB Frontera and will be towing a friends IW505. I know the car details but not the traile,  although I think the trailer is as follows. 
Car unladen - 1759
Car GVW - 2400
Car GTW - 2600
Trailer MAM - 2340
Trailer unladen - 905
I have a 14.2 Haflinger, around 430-470kg and will be taking my trailer test before towing. How much extra capacity do I have after my mare is on boar, if any?
Thank you


----------



## ROG (18 May 2015)

patchwork puzzle said:



			Hi, I have a LWB Frontera and will be towing a friends IW505. I know the car details but not the traile,  although I think the trailer is as follows. 
Car unladen - 1759
Car GVW - 2400
Car GTW - 2600
Trailer MAM - 2340
Trailer unladen - 905
I have a 14.2 Haflinger, around 430-470kg and will be taking my trailer test before towing. How much extra capacity do I have after my mare is on boar, if any?
Thank you
		
Click to expand...

I think you mean it has a towing capacity of 2600 but the rest is spot on so it makes my job easy - ta

With a B+E licence or towing as a B+E learner you take the lower figure of either towing capacity 2600 or trailer MAM 2340 so in this case its 2340

You then take 905 from 2340 which leaves you with 1435 which can be loaded into the trailer

From that 1435 you take off the horse 470 which still leaves 965 to be put into the trailer

3 horses at 470 = 1410 with 25 to spare - but as the trailer is only designed for 2 horses that is a bit of useless info !


----------



## patchwork puzzle (18 May 2015)

That's great, thank you ROG, am I right in thinking that I can legally tow that maximum of 2340 with that vehicle?


----------



## ROG (18 May 2015)

patchwork puzzle said:



			That's great, thank you ROG, am I right in thinking that I can legally tow that maximum of 2340 with that vehicle?
		
Click to expand...

Yup because it has a tow capacity of 2600

If you got a trailer with a MAM of say 3000 then it can only be loaded up to a max weight of 2600


----------



## patchwork puzzle (18 May 2015)

Thank you once again. I have another question, if that's Ok,  I do apologise 
I realise now the GTW is 5000 and is stated under the 2400 under the bonnet. I have read quite often that the recommended towing limit is 85% of something, but I don't know what of, can you help to confirm and maybe let me know what the recommended amount is for my vehicle?


----------



## ROG (18 May 2015)

patchwork puzzle said:



			Thank you once again. I have another question, if that's Ok,  I do apologise 
I realise now the GTW is 5000 and is stated under the 2400 under the bonnet. I have read quite often that the recommended towing limit is 85% of something, but I don't know what of, can you help to confirm and maybe let me know what the recommended amount is for my vehicle?
		
Click to expand...

The 85% advice is for caravans only due to them being large light bubbles of air


----------



## patchwork puzzle (18 May 2015)

Thank you, you've been ever so helpful


----------



## ROG (18 May 2015)

patchwork puzzle said:



			Thank you, you've been ever so helpful
		
Click to expand...

Its why I am here - I know nowt about horses but I did ride a donkey on the beach when I was little !!


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## Moomin1 (18 May 2015)

Would a Vauxhall Frontera Suv 2.2 Dti Olympus be ok for an Ifor Williams 510 with 16.3hh horse weighing approx 600kg?  I don't have a B + E licence as yet but just need to know if it's ok for towing that sort of weight. 

I am only looking at this  vehicle at the moment and can't seem to find any specs for it anywhere, though I am probably looking in the wrong place.


----------



## ROG (19 May 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			Would a Vauxhall Frontera Suv 2.2 Dti Olympus be ok for an Ifor Williams 510 with 16.3hh horse weighing approx 600kg?  I don't have a B + E licence as yet but just need to know if it's ok for towing that sort of weight. 

I am only looking at this  vehicle at the moment and can't seem to find any specs for it anywhere, though I am probably looking in the wrong place.
		
Click to expand...

I searched the internet and found the kerb/empty weight is about 1800 so the GVW will be about 2300
I also found the towing capacity listed as 2800

With the trailer and horse you listed the total weight will be about 1600 so well within the 2800 towing capacity

The MAM of the HB510 is 2584 and the empty weight is 1000 so the max that can be put in the trailer using that vehicle is 1584

It will need to be driven under B+E licence/provisional rules


----------



## Moomin1 (19 May 2015)

ROG said:



			I searched the internet and found the kerb/empty weight is about 1800 so the GVW will be about 2300
I also found the towing capacity listed as 2800

With the trailer and horse you listed the total weight will be about 1600 so well within the 2800 towing capacity

The MAM of the HB510 is 2584 and the empty weight is 1000 so the max that can be put in the trailer using that vehicle is 1584

It will need to be driven under B+E licence/provisional rules
		
Click to expand...

Thankyou ROG. Can I just double check I am right in thinking I can tow (I don't have a B and E yet) provided I have someone who does have a B and E or passed their driving test before 2007 sat in the vehicle with me?


----------



## ROG (19 May 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			Thankyou ROG. Can I just double check I am right in thinking I can tow (I don't have a B and E yet) provided I have someone who does have a B and E or passed their driving test before 2007 sat in the vehicle with me?
		
Click to expand...

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


----------



## ROG (19 May 2015)

daisy123 said:



			Hi all, am I ok to tow upto 3.5kg without taking the b+e test? Thanks
		
Click to expand...

You need two figures
GVW of vehicle which is listed as Max permissible mass on the V5 keepers form or the top of the 4 numbers on the weight plate which is usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame
MAM of trailer which is the high figure on the silver weight plate usually located on the A-frame behind the towing hitch

When you get those two figures you add them together and if they total more than 3500 you need B+E to drive it alone or as a learner - see post above for the rules on that

The trailer can be down plated only by the manufacturer if you need to do that to comply to the law for B towing but the empty weight remains the same so it would mean that less can be loaded into it


----------



## daisy123 (19 May 2015)

This is so confusing to me.

Could I tow without taking the b+e test? Obviously I didn't pass my test before 1997 and failed 2 trailer tests on driving errors.

My car weighs 1.5kg
trailer weighs 820kg unladen 
trailer weighs 1750kg  mam
horse weighs 420kg 

Anything I've missed out?

Thanks


----------



## ROG (19 May 2015)

daisy123 said:



			This is so confusing to me.

Could I tow without taking the b+e test? Obviously I didn't pass my test before 1997 and failed 2 trailer tests on driving errors.

My car weighs 1.5kg
trailer weighs 820kg unladen 
trailer weighs 1750kg  mam
horse weighs 420kg 

Anything I've missed out?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Need GVW of vehicle not the empty weight because licences go on the plated weights


----------



## daisy123 (19 May 2015)

2100kg braked
750kg unbraked


----------



## ROG (19 May 2015)

daisy123 said:



			2100kg braked
750kg unbraked
		
Click to expand...

Still need GVW


----------



## daisy123 (19 May 2015)

These are what I found on door

1965kg
3465kg
1050kg
960kg


----------



## ROG (19 May 2015)

daisy123 said:



			These are what I found on door

1965kg
3465kg
1050kg
960kg
		
Click to expand...

BRILL
1965 = GVW
3465 = GTW
1050 = front axle
960 = rear axle

GTW 3465 minus GVW 1965 = 1500 which is usually the max towing capacity so where did the 2100 braked you got come from ?

GVW 1965 + trailer MAM 1750 = 3715 so 215 over the max 3500 B licence towing limit

Remedy = contact trailer manufacturer and get it down plated from 1750 to 1500

1500 minus 820 = 680 so plenty enough for a 420 horse


----------



## ROG (19 May 2015)

What trailer has a MAM of 1750 and an empty weight of 820 ?

I have a feeling its a richardson rice who have gone out of business so cannot be down plated


----------



## daisy123 (19 May 2015)

Got the first weights out of manual guide That came with car.

Yes I have a rice trailer. So need to do the dreaded b+e test again.

Thanks for the help


----------



## ROG (19 May 2015)

daisy123 said:



			Got the first weights out of manual guide That came with car.

Yes I have a rice trailer. So need to do the dreaded b+e test again.

Thanks for the help
		
Click to expand...

Or get a different trailer

The plated weights are the law

The hand book could still be correct but I would be sceptical and contact manufacturer


----------



## daisy123 (20 May 2015)

I've only just got this trailer I swapped my ifor 505 for a smaller box.


----------



## ROG (20 May 2015)

daisy123 said:



			I've only just got this trailer I swapped my ifor 505 for a smaller box.
		
Click to expand...

You could have down plated the 505 to 1500 and still had enough to spare for a 420 horse


----------



## daisy123 (20 May 2015)

That's just my luck is that!


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## Meeko (20 May 2015)

Hi..

1 - What licence they hold - B license
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1580kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2785kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 3500kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - trailor is IFor 510
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer

Hope the details are correct, car is a isuzu trooper 2000 3.1d, trailor ifor 510

Thank you


----------



## ROG (20 May 2015)

Meeko said:



			Hi..

1 - What licence they hold - B license
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1580kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2785kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 3500kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - trailor is IFor 510
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer

Hope the details are correct, car is a isuzu trooper 2000 3.1d, trailor ifor 510

Thank you 

Click to expand...

HB510 is 2584 MAM and 1000 empty

2785+2584=5369 so well over the 3500 max for B towing 

You can drive that combo now using this - but not on your own 

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


----------



## daisy123 (20 May 2015)

Checked trailer today and the weighs are actually...

1400kg
2700kg

Does that mean I'm legal to tow without b + e test?


----------



## ROG (20 May 2015)

daisy123 said:



			Checked trailer today and the weighs are actually...

1400kg
2700kg

Does that mean I'm legal to tow without b + e test?
		
Click to expand...

No - its worse because now you have 2700+1965=4665 which is way over the 3500 B licence towing limit


----------



## daisy123 (20 May 2015)

oh no


----------



## ROG (20 May 2015)

daisy123 said:



			oh no
		
Click to expand...

You have a great GVW vehicle for B towing as its not more than 2000 kg but its your trailer MAM which is letting you down


----------



## webble (21 May 2015)

ROG said:



			I searched the internet and found the kerb/empty weight is about 1800 so the GVW will be about 2300
I also found the towing capacity listed as 2800

With the trailer and horse you listed the total weight will be about 1600 so well within the 2800 towing capacity

The MAM of the HB510 is 2584 and the empty weight is 1000 so the max that can be put in the trailer using that vehicle is 1584

It will need to be driven under B+E licence/provisional rules
		
Click to expand...

oooo that would leave enough space for a little cob alongside too


----------



## daisy123 (21 May 2015)

So what would be my ideal trailer on weights?  As I'm now going to sell mine and get a smaller box. Been looking for a single but not many around..thanks again


----------



## ROG (21 May 2015)

daisy123 said:



			So what would be my ideal trailer on weights?  As I'm now going to sell mine and get a smaller box. Been looking for a single but not many around..thanks again
		
Click to expand...

I think you said your horse was about 420 kg so with a few other bits lets say you need to load 500 kg into the trailer

You have a max plated MAM limit of 1500 with your vehicle GVW being just under 2000 kg

A trailer weighing 1000 empty and down plated to 1500 would work so along with many others that includes the Ifor 505 506 510 511 double trailers

virtually any basic single or double trailer where the manufacturer is still trading is where you need to look

If you find one then post what it is on here before buying so I can guide you on the legal requirements for your situation


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## daisy123 (21 May 2015)

Ok thanks


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## beatrice (22 May 2015)

Hope this is the correct place to leave this query and apologies if it has been answered before - I am due to take my trailer test in a few weeks however in the meantime am I ok to drive car+trailer with L plates supervised by someone with a pre 1997 license?

Thanks in advance!!


----------



## ROG (22 May 2015)

beatrice said:



			Hope this is the correct place to leave this query and apologies if it has been answered before - I am due to take my trailer test in a few weeks however in the meantime am I ok to drive car+trailer with L plates supervised by someone with a pre 1997 license?

Thanks in advance!!
		
Click to expand...

See post 2287 above


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## Kacey88 (24 May 2015)

I am changing my car soon and was wondering if there is any car/jeep I can legally tow a HB505 or HB506 with a 530kg horse inside? I only have a B license but will get my B+E if needs be.


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## ROG (24 May 2015)

Kacey88 said:



			I am changing my car soon and was wondering if there is any car/jeep I can legally tow a HB505 or HB506 with a 530kg horse inside? I only have a B license but will get my B+E if needs be.
		
Click to expand...

Yes there is

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/bus...octavia-diesel-estate_3/70454/technical-data/ skoda octavia 4x4
GVW 1998 kg
Towing capacity 2000

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1063 HB505
empty 905
MAM 2340 but down plated by contacting IW to 1500 leaving 595 for trailer load

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1010 HB506
empty 920
MAM 2600 but down plated by contacting IW to 1500 leaving 580 for trailer load


Another vehicle
http://carleasingmadesimple.com/bus...hqai-diesel-hatchback_2/63044/technical-data/ Nissan Qashqai 4x4
GVW a little higher at 2030 kg
Towing capacity 1800

Using this vehicle would mean down plating the above trailers to 1470 and would mean 30 kg less which can be put into trailer


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## ROG (24 May 2015)

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/bus...da/yeti-diesel-estate_1/62822/technical-data/ Skoda Yeti is another worth looking at for B towing


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## Kacey88 (24 May 2015)

Thank you so much ROG. I don't see the point in down plating if the weight is legal but anywho! Delighted it can be done on a B license.


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## ROG (24 May 2015)

Kacey88 said:



			Thank you so much ROG. I don't see the point in down plating if the weight is legal but anywho! Delighted it can be done on a B license.
		
Click to expand...

Licences go on the plated weights not the actual weights and the max total plated weight for B towing is 3500 kg

If the plated weight (GVW/MAM) on the towing vehicle is say 2000 kg then the max plated weight (MAM) for the trailer is 1500 kg


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## OldNag (24 May 2015)

Anyone here tow with an Audi A4? 

I have an old 4 x4 but it is having reliability  issues and finances do not at the moment permit an upgrade.

We have an Audi A4 2.5 tdi auto which is more than capable of towing my trailer + 2 ponies (and I am ancient so on a B & E). 

I am debating whether to stick a towbar on the Audi so we have a backup tow car. But I am wondering how it would cope towing on grass? Anyone tow with similar?

  Generally the venues we tow to are car - friendly with hardstanding,  but we do go to shows on fields.

Before I invest in a towbar, am I barking up the wrong tree?


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## ROG (24 May 2015)

OldNag said:



			Anyone here tow with an Audi A4? 

I have an old 4 x4 but it is having reliability  issues and finances do not at the moment permit an upgrade.

We have an Audi A4 2.5 tdi auto which is more than capable of towing my trailer + 2 ponies (and I am ancient so on a B & E). 

I am debating whether to stick a towbar on the Audi so we have a backup tow car. But I am wondering how it would cope towing on grass? Anyone tow with similar?

  Generally the venues we tow to are car - friendly with hardstanding,  but we do go to shows on fields.

Before I invest in a towbar, am I barking up the wrong tree?
		
Click to expand...

I just had a quick look around the internet and it seems about 50/50 on grass towing with the 4x4 Audi


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## OldNag (24 May 2015)

ROG said:



			I just had a quick look around the internet and it seems about 50/50 on grass towing with the 4x4 Audi
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ROG


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## tallyho! (24 May 2015)

OldNag said:



			Anyone here tow with an Audi A4? 

I have an old 4 x4 but it is having reliability  issues and finances do not at the moment permit an upgrade.

We have an Audi A4 2.5 tdi auto which is more than capable of towing my trailer + 2 ponies (and I am ancient so on a B & E). 

I am debating whether to stick a towbar on the Audi so we have a backup tow car. But I am wondering how it would cope towing on grass? Anyone tow with similar?

  Generally the venues we tow to are car - friendly with hardstanding,  but we do go to shows on fields.

Before I invest in a towbar, am I barking up the wrong tree?
		
Click to expand...

Hya, I tow with an Audi A4 now. Only one horse in a HB505 and it's absolutely fine on grass... wouldn't like to chance it on a real wet/muddy day though but most of the shows I go to are on grass and mainly in the summer when we like to think it'll be dry ... anyway, managed to get home so far these last few years... 

Towbars are not break-the-bank either. I think mine was under £200 and done me well.

Sometimes I need something that'll tow two horses but I borrow a mates truck for that.


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## tallyho! (24 May 2015)

oops double posted... how'd that happen?!


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## OldNag (24 May 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Hya, I tow with an Audi A4 now. Only one horse in a HB505 and it's absolutely fine on grass... wouldn't like to chance it on a real wet/muddy day though but most of the shows I go to are on grass and mainly in the summer when we like to think it'll be dry ... anyway, managed to get home so far these last few years... 

Towbars are not break-the-bank either. I think mine was under £200 and done me well.

Sometimes I need something that'll tow two horses but I borrow a mates truck for that.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks TH. 
My two ponies together weigh under 600kg and trailer is 740kg so I won't  be towing a huge amount. Sounds very possible.


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## ROG (25 May 2015)

OldNag said:



			Thanks TH. 
My two ponies together weigh under 600kg and trailer is 740kg so I won't  be towing a huge amount. Sounds very possible.
		
Click to expand...

That could be done on a B licence if the plated weights do not total more than 3500 kg


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## tallyho! (27 May 2015)

ROG said:



			That could be done on a B licence if the plated weights do not total more than 3500 kg
		
Click to expand...

It's a good option!


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## OldNag (28 May 2015)

ROG said:



			That could be done on a B licence if the plated weights do not total more than 3500 kg
		
Click to expand...




tallyho! said:



			It's a good option!
		
Click to expand...

I'm ancient so have B&E.

I don't "do" cars, my husband has pointed out it's an A6 not an A4 (not sure that makes any difference?), I checked cost of tow bars and think I may well go for it. My old 4x4 tow car was out of action for 2 weeks recently and it was a right pain, so having a back up would be brilliant.  If the Audi turns out to cope well then I could actually ditch the 4x4....

Thanks TH and ROG.


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## tallyho! (29 May 2015)

OldNag said:



			I'm ancient so have B&E.

I don't "do" cars, my husband has pointed out it's an A6 not an A4 (not sure that makes any difference?), I checked cost of tow bars and think I may well go for it. My old 4x4 tow car was out of action for 2 weeks recently and it was a right pain, so having a back up would be brilliant.  If the Audi turns out to cope well then I could actually ditch the 4x4....

Thanks TH and ROG.
		
Click to expand...

An A6 has a bigger towing capacity depending on engine size.. my A4 is 2.0litre and does 1600. Just enough.

Lucky you!

Yes, I would ditch the 4x4 unless you need something to get you out of slippery situations and even so... I've seen a tractor towing out a Toyota Amazon from a drenched local show!


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## princestar (29 May 2015)

Hi
I've been recommended to speak to you regarding towing an ifor Williams HB505 with a Honda CV-R diesel. My horse weighs 560kg and I have my trailer licence too. 

Can you advise if a Honda cv-r will be any good, or advise something similar as I have also looked at a Freelander which I've been advised isn't good

The car will be my day to day car for general use and I will be towing between one and three times per month locally but with an occasional further trip. 

May well have two horses both at 560/570kg each on some occasions too. 

Hope you can help  x


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## ROG (30 May 2015)

princestar said:



			Hi
I've been recommended to speak to you regarding towing an ifor Williams HB505 with a Honda CV-R diesel. My horse weighs 560kg and I have my trailer licence too. 

Can you advise if a Honda cv-r will be any good, or advise something similar as I have also looked at a Freelander which I've been advised isn't good

The car will be my day to day car for general use and I will be towing between one and three times per month locally but with an occasional further trip. 

May well have two horses both at 560/570kg each on some occasions too. 

Hope you can help  x
		
Click to expand...

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/honda/cr-v/towing-weight-limit/ - what model do you have in that list ?

The trailer is 905 empty so with a horse at 560 that means you need a towing capacity of at least 1465 which could get a bit tight if you have a 1500 max tow weight model

If both horses are in trailer then you need a tow capacity of at least 2035

I have no expertise in tow cars so cannot make a recommendation as to what is best but the Skoda Octavia 4x4 was towcar of the year 2014


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## Bigbenji (30 May 2015)

Hi ROG. 

Think it's the LGV? Basically be able to drive a ridged bodied HGV. Be for personal use eg horsebox if that makes any difference :/


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## ROG (30 May 2015)

Bigbenji said:



			Hi ROG. 

Think it's the LGV? Basically be able to drive a ridged bodied HGV. Be for personal use eg horsebox if that makes any difference :/
		
Click to expand...

I think you meant to post that here = https://forums-secure.horseandhound...LGV-(HGV)-Info-clinic&p=12925425#post12925425


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## OldNag (31 May 2015)

tallyho! said:



			An A6 has a bigger towing capacity depending on engine size.. my A4 is 2.0litre and does 1600. Just enough.

Lucky you!

Yes, I would ditch the 4x4 unless you need something to get you out of slippery situations and even so... I've seen a tractor towing out a Toyota Amazon from a drenched local show!
		
Click to expand...

Thanks TH.


I will get the towbar sorted and debate whether to keep the 4x4. I have spent so much on it recently  that I nay as well hang on to it! (and secretly I do have a soft spot for it). 

 I think the tow capacity for the audi is 1800 which is more than ample for me.   Will see how it goes!


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## BigNog (5 June 2015)

Hi Towing Clinic and ROG,
Please could you give me some advice? 
I plan to tow an Ifor Williams HB403 with a 560kg horse on board using a SEAT alhambra 1.9 SE TDi (auto). I realise that I won't be able to go anywhere muddy or slippery but am I legal and safe?!

1. BE
2. 1841 kg
3. 2430 kg
4. 2000 kg (max towing capacity) I can't find the GTW!
5. 1600 kg
6. 767 kg

Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated &#128522;


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## ROG (5 June 2015)

BigNog said:



			Hi Towing Clinic and ROG,
Please could you give me some advice? 
I plan to tow an Ifor Williams HB403 with a 560kg horse on board using a SEAT alhambra 1.9 SE TDi (auto). I realise that I won't be able to go anywhere muddy or slippery but am I legal and safe?!

1. BE
2. 1841 kg
3. 2430 kg
4. 2000 kg (max towing capacity) I can't find the GTW!
5. 1600 kg
6. 767 kg

Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated &#55357;&#56842;
		
Click to expand...

WELCOME

GTW will be 2430+2000=4430 but its not needed as you have all the info I need = thank you as it makes it easy

Unfortunately with a GVW of 2430 it leaves only 1070 for the trailer MAM so down plating from 1600 to 1070 minus the 767 trailer weight would only leave 303 kg for the trailer load/horse !!

Great choice of trailer for B towing but too high GVW on the vehicle


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## BigNog (5 June 2015)

Thanks ROG, Now 'm really confused! I thought the weight that I needed to worry about was making sure that the unladen weight of the trailer + weight of the horse (767 kg + 560 kg = 1327 kg) didn't exceed 85% of the car's kerb weight (85% of 1841kg = 1596 kg). Have I got that wrong? &#55357;&#56876;


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## ROG (5 June 2015)

BigNog said:



			Thanks ROG, Now 'm really confused! I thought the weight that I needed to worry about was making sure that the unladen weight of the trailer + weight of the horse (767 kg + 560 kg = 1327 kg) didn't exceed 85% of the car's kerb weight (85% of 1841kg = 1596 kg). Have I got that wrong? &#65533;&#65533;
		
Click to expand...

Totally wrong

85% thing is advice for caravanners only

You are using actual weights and the law works on plated weights for licences

Actual weights must not exceed the plated weights

OOPS - you have BE not B ... silly me misread that bit !!!!!!!!!!!

1. BE
2. 1841 kg
3. 2430 kg
4. 2000 kg (max towing capacity) I can't find the GTW!
5. 1600 kg
6. 767 kg

You are legally ok 

You have a 2000 towing capacity and a 1600 trailer MAM - the lower of those is 1600
1600 minus 767 = 833 so that is what you can load into the trailer


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## ROG (5 June 2015)

I do apologise BigNog - when I saw ifor single trailer I assumed it would be for B licence and not BE

One thing - they fetch a premium because B licence towers are on the hunt for those second hand


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## BigNog (5 June 2015)

Phew! Hooray for being an old lady! Thanks very much ROG, my horse will be very relieved that she doesn't need to start a strict diet! I have read so many different things about towing capacity and towing weights (online and in books) and found it very hard to condense into a simple formula so thank you for your help &#128522;


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## BigNog (5 June 2015)

Good news! Although I've only just bought the trailer so I'm hoping to enjoy it for a good few years &#55357;&#56842; Thank you


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## Bridie&theMinis (6 June 2015)

Hi Rog 
Thanks for helping. I must be the biggest plank - I still don't know what number 4 would be?  
1 - B (B+E test booked for July)
2 - 2145 (bmw x5)
3 - 2785
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle ? (I have 1 horse approx 500-550)
5 - 2340 (ifor 505)
6 - 905
Would you mind clarifying if I can I take the trailer out myself if empty to practise over the next month or do I need someone with me plus L plates? 
Thanks Rog, appreciated - its mind boggling!


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## Bridie&theMinis (6 June 2015)

Hi Rog - think I may have all the right numbers now (ref adjacent post) I couldn't edit it so had to do a new message! I have a 500-550 mare. Thank you! 
1. B
2. 2175 kg
3. 2725 kg
4. 2700 kg
5. 2340 kg
6. 905 kg


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## ROG (6 June 2015)

Bridie&theMinis said:



			Hi Rog - think I may have all the right numbers now (ref adjacent post) I couldn't edit it so had to do a new message! I have a 500-550 mare. Thank you! 
1. B
2. 2175 kg
3. 2725 kg
4. 2700 kg
5. 2340 kg
6. 905 kg

Would you mind clarifying if I can I take the trailer out myself if empty to practise over the next month or do I need someone with me plus L plates?
		
Click to expand...

2725+2340=5065 so well over the 3500 allowed for B towing

It remains at 5065 whether loaded or empty - this may be useful ........

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving

Under B+E rules you can load 1435 into the trailer


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## Bridie&theMinis (6 June 2015)

Hi Rog - thank you so much. This has really helped me! Really appreciate your help


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## daisy123 (9 June 2015)

Hi rog. Do you remember me? Well I've sold my trailer now and just thought I'd double check the weight I need to buy. I think you said 1500kg mam. Is that correct? Thanks


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## ROG (9 June 2015)

daisy123 said:



			Hi rog. Do you remember me? Well I've sold my trailer now and just thought I'd double check the weight I need to buy. I think you said 1500kg mam. Is that correct? Thanks
These are what I found on door

1965kg 
3465kg
1050kg
960kg
		
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1500 plated MAM max on the trailer plate is correct

1965 GVW + 1500 MAM = 3465 so under the 3500 max total for B towing

Most will have a plate higher than 1500 so you need a trailer where the manufacturer is still trading so it can be down plated by them

If you have a horse weighing 420 kg (from your previous post) then having a trailer which weighs 1000 empty will still be ok as it will still allow for a 500 load after being down plated to 1500 

Personally I would go for a single or lightweight trailer such as the HB401/3 or a Bateson Derby for example so that if you get a car in the future with a higher GVW it can still be down plated further

TBH if you got a HB401/3 which weighs just under 800 empty then I would down plate it to 1300 allowing for a 2200 GVW car in the future


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## Olliepop (9 June 2015)

Any recommendations about where to get a tow bar fitted to a Range Rover Sport? We are based in Loughborough and need it sorting out ASAP. Also any pitfalls to watch out for and are there any opinions about a flange fitted tow bar vs. the detachable one? Thanks in advance


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## ROG (9 June 2015)

Olliepop said:



			Any recommendations about where to get a tow bar fitted to a Range Rover Sport? We are based in Loughborough and need it sorting out ASAP. Also any pitfalls to watch out for and are there any opinions about a flange fitted tow bar vs. the detachable one? Thanks in advance 

Click to expand...

Not my area of knowledge but perhaps another member reading can help


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## daisy123 (9 June 2015)

Thanks again rog your a star. I've been looking at ifor single and bateson derby so I'm on the right tracks. ]


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## daisy123 (9 June 2015)

Even cheval pullman one horse trailers


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## ROG (9 June 2015)

daisy123 said:



			Even cheval pullman one horse trailers
		
Click to expand...

The problem with those type of trailers is that they fetch a premium price these days due to the towing laws and many doing what you now are but the upside is that they hold their price well


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## luckilotti (13 June 2015)

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE                    Basic license from between 1997 and 2013 so B?
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle            
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

ok - struggling to find all of the weights for the above - but i have the booklet infront of me so will share what that says!

Max permissible towed weights  unbraked trailers 750kg, braked 3500kg
Approx EEC kerbweights - 2150-2280kg
MGVW - max would be 2880kg   (says 2750 for all 5 seaters but then the larger figure for what appears to be none 5 seaters but with the self-leveling suspension - which i believe mine has)    Parkers just has under 'weight' 2150kg
trailer app weights 675-900kg (think it depends upon year but no figures based on years) - tyre size 155/13 (yep not quite a horse trailer but hope you dont mind still helping out here!)   When i have asked the seller if there is a weight mentioned on the trailer i have been told it says  350 -700 kg - but that seems a big range :/  

Any help gratefully appreciated!  

I know i can tow my horse trailer with my mum with me with L plates etc (assuming they havent removed the grand dad rights etc!), but this is for a trailer tent so we can have some family holidays but both hubby and i have the same license etc.  Thanks. 

Car is a 99 LR Discovery TD5 GS Auto (06) Estate.


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## ROG (13 June 2015)

luckilotti said:



			1 - What licence they hold - B or BE                    Basic license from between 1997 and 2013 so B?
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle            
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

ok - struggling to find all of the weights for the above - but i have the booklet infront of me so will share what that says!

Max permissible towed weights  unbraked trailers 750kg, braked 3500kg
Approx EEC kerbweights - 2150-2280kg
MGVW - max would be 2880kg   (says 2750 for all 5 seaters but then the larger figure for what appears to be none 5 seaters but with the self-leveling suspension - which i believe mine has)    Parkers just has under 'weight' 2150kg
trailer app weights 675-900kg (think it depends upon year but no figures based on years) - tyre size 155/13 (yep not quite a horse trailer but hope you dont mind still helping out here!)   When i have asked the seller if there is a weight mentioned on the trailer i have been told it says  350 -700 kg - but that seems a big range :/  

Any help gratefully appreciated!  

I know i can tow my horse trailer with my mum with me with L plates etc (assuming they havent removed the grand dad rights etc!), but this is for a trailer tent so we can have some family holidays but both hubby and i have the same license etc.  Thanks. 

Car is a 99 LR Discovery TD5 GS Auto (06) Estate.
		
Click to expand...

1 = B
3 = GVW 2880
I do not need to go any further because there is no decent trailer you can tow with such a high GVW with a B licence

Curious - what trailer is it ?


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## luckilotti (13 June 2015)

ROG said:



			1 = B
3 = GVW 2880
I do not need to go any further because there is no horse trailer you can tow with such a high GVW with a B licence
		
Click to expand...

Thanks - but i did explain that it's not a horse trailer i was after some help with, but a little trailer tent etc    
With this new Discovery that i have does this now mean i cant tow my horse trailer with my mum sat with me with the L plates like my old disco?


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## ROG (13 June 2015)

luckilotti said:



			Thanks - but i did explain that it's not a horse trailer i was after some help with, but a little trailer tent etc    
With this new Discovery that i have does this now mean i cant tow with my mum sat with me with the L plates like my old disco?
		
Click to expand...

I just saw that and corrected my answer

You can tow a trailer tent which has a MAM of 750 kgs or less on your B licence

Can you give me more info on the trailer please ?


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## luckilotti (13 June 2015)

the seller has said the plate on the trailer says the weight is 300-700kg - but that is a massive range IMO. 
Online when i have searched that brand (but cant find anything that relates to the year it was made), and it says the weight is  675 (ex works) - 900kg (max).  
it's a pennine pullman, but it's an old one (early 80's)


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## ROG (13 June 2015)

If no plate on trailer then use tyre load rating - click this link = http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating


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## ROG (13 June 2015)

luckilotti said:



			the seller has said the plate on the trailer says the weight is 300-700kg - but that is a massive range IMO. 
Online when i have searched that brand (but cant find anything that relates to the year it was made), and it says the weight is  675 (ex works) - 900kg (max).  
it's a pennine pullman, but it's an old one (early 80's)
		
Click to expand...

That is not a definitive weight plate so use tyre load ratings total


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## luckilotti (13 June 2015)

The plate app says 300-700kg :/ 
I'll emailed the seller again and ask what the tyres say.


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## ROG (13 June 2015)

luckilotti said:



			The plate app says 300-700kg :/ 
I'll emailed the seller again and ask what the tyres say.
		
Click to expand...

Did you send the tyre load rating link to them so they can give you that info ?


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## luckilotti (13 June 2015)

I've asked them to provide the full number off the tyres so i can look on the website myself for my own piece of mind as they answer they gave me re the plate was so vague i'm not sure i would trust their answer fully.

I am assuming it will have to be under the 750kg?   Confused what my weight of my car is as parkers is so far off some of the poss figures in the book but they obviously dont take my exact model into account :/


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## ROG (13 June 2015)

I get a feeling it is this = http://www.foldingcamperinformation.co.uk/html/pullman.html 

If it is then its 675 empty and has a max MAM of 900 allowing for 225 to be loaded into it

does that seem right to you ?


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## ROG (13 June 2015)

luckilotti said:



			I've asked them to provide the full number off the tyres so i can look on the website myself for my own piece of mind as they answer they gave me re the plate was so vague i'm not sure i would trust their answer fully.

I am assuming it will have to be under the 750kg?   Confused what my weight of my car is as parkers is so far off some of the poss figures in the book but they obviously dont take my exact model into account :/
		
Click to expand...

It must not be more than 750 kg MAM for you to tow it alone on a B licence with a vehicle where the GVW is between 2750 and 3500


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## ROG (13 June 2015)

looks nice if thats it ?


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## luckilotti (13 June 2015)

Yes it's like that just a LOT older, not as fancy inside though (from comparing pics prob lighter as now they look to be much higher spec).  

Is there any way of finding the EXACT GVW for my car which is the official weight they would use for any checks etc?  Just weird the book says for some models upto 2880kg, yet parkers for my model says 2150 - 730kg is a BIG difference between figures :/  (surely parkers when you have to select model, transition etc take that all into account?)

I'm going to be checking my horse trailer tyres also tomorrow as, as far as i know i can tow that with the provisional B+E entitlement with my mum with me, with L plates but hope that's actually right or i might as well sell that trailer (has off road type tyres on so may not be the true figure for my trailer but it is an old one with no plate on)


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## ROG (13 June 2015)

luckilotti said:



			Yes it's like that just a LOT older, not as fancy inside though (from comparing pics prob lighter as now they look to be much higher spec).  

Is there any way of finding the EXACT GVW for my car which is the official weight they would use for any checks etc?  Just weird the book says for some models upto 2880kg, yet parkers for my model says 2150 - 730kg is a BIG difference between figures :/  (surely parkers when you have to select model, transition etc take that all into account?)

I'm going to be checking my horse trailer tyres also tomorrow as, as far as i know i can tow that with the provisional B+E entitlement with my mum with me, with L plates but hope that's actually right or i might as well sell that trailer (has off road type tyres on so may not be the true figure for my trailer but it is an old one with no plate on)
		
Click to expand...

To find exact GVW is easy - find weight plate usually hidden under bonnet or in a door frame which has 4 weights on it - its the top weight = GVW

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## ROG (13 June 2015)

With MUM next to you and towing under B+E learner rules you can tow any horse trailer with that vehicle as it has a towing capacity of 3500 kg if memory serves correctly

By giving me the top two figures off the vehicle weight plate I can say for definitite


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## luckilotti (13 June 2015)

Thanks, 

Sadly i cant do that until Monday as it is currently at the Land Rover Garage as it has been having it's track rod ends and some other bits and bobs done (i dont know exactly what - only the bill is big as there were computer problems with it!) and they hadn't got it finished by the time they closed at lunch earlier today.   I know my trailer is big and heavy   my Disco 300TDI struggled to pull it (but she was on her way out anyway, i believe the man who bought her off me scrapped her!), the newer one i have now pulls fine (hate to say but a friend even borrowed my car and trailer to take a shire to and from the vets and it managed ok). 

Thanks so much for your help


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## ROG (13 June 2015)

Got the V5 keepers form for the vehicle handy ?


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## luckilotti (13 June 2015)

ROG said:



			Got the V5 keepers form for the vehicle handy ?
		
Click to expand...

yep, got it right infront of me


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## ROG (13 June 2015)

luckilotti said:



			yep, got it right infront of me
		
Click to expand...

What does it say under

Max permissible mass = ???? kg

Max braked towing weight = ???? kg


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## luckilotti (13 June 2015)

You'll love these answers....

Max permissible mass =   Blank

Max braked towing weight =  Blank

Infact, most of the sections are blank - all it does have in is the date of reg, make, model, body type, tax class, cc, fuel type, # of seats, wheelplan, vin, engine # and colour - all of the rest dont have anything next to them :/


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## ROG (13 June 2015)

luckilotti said:



			You'll love these answers....

Max permissible mass =   Blank

Max braked towing weight =  Blank

Infact, most of the sections are blank - all it does have in is the date of reg, make, model, body type, tax class, cc, fuel type, # of seats, wheelplan, vin, engine # and colour - all of the rest dont have anything next to them :/
		
Click to expand...

Oh great !!!! = I love DVLA ... not

We will have to wait until the plate can be read on the vehicle


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## luckilotti (13 June 2015)

I bet if i got stopped and they checked my reg etc they would have all sorts of info listed that isnt on my V5C, i've just checked hubbys for his focus and his is also all blank!


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## SplashofSoy (18 June 2015)

Hi ROG

I am just making sure i have everything right as i have never had a towing vehicle before.  I looking at buying a SsangYong Korando SE which tows 2,000kg.  I will be towing an Ifor Williams 510 with one horse so total weight about 1650kg at worst.  I am on a BE licence (test passed last year)  I have read about MAM trailer weights which for the ifor is 2600/2700kg and that you shouldn't tow with a car with less than that capability but then i don't believe that's correct and its just the total load being towed which matters.  

Can you just tell me if i will be legal. 

Thank you


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## ROG (18 June 2015)

SplashofSoy said:



			Hi ROG

I am just making sure i have everything right as i have never had a towing vehicle before.  I looking at buying a SsangYong Korando SE which tows 2,000kg.  I will be towing an Ifor Williams 510 with one horse so total weight about 1650kg at worst.  I am on a BE licence (test passed last year)  I have read about MAM trailer weights which for the ifor is 2600/2700kg and that you shouldn't tow with a car with less than that capability but then i don't believe that's correct and its just the total load being towed which matters.  

Can you just tell me if i will be legal. 

Thank you
		
Click to expand...

No law or rule which states that the towing capacity must be able to accommodate a trailer MAM but plenty of internet myths say otherwise

As long as the total actual weight you are towing does not exceed 2000 kg you are fine

2000 and 2600 so the lower figure is used as the max

Things are easier to work out on a B+E


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## SplashofSoy (18 June 2015)

Thanks ROG.  Didn't want to have to worry about downplating the trailer.  So good to know I can get the new car and it will do what i want and tow my boy.


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## ROG (18 June 2015)

SplashofSoy said:



			Thanks ROG.  Didn't want to have to worry about downplating the trailer.  So good to know I can get the new car and it will do what i want and tow my boy.
		
Click to expand...

The only reason for down plating on this site would be for B licence towing

There are certain commercial reasons for down plating but have never had to advise on those on this site


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## Buckskinspots (7 July 2015)

Rog please can you explain this to me. On the link where it says passed after 1997 it say to tow a trailer over 750 kg mam the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer can't exceed 3500kg. No mention of mam of both unlike for licences after 2013
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car


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## ROG (8 July 2015)

Buckskinspots said:



			Rog please can you explain this to me. On the link where it says passed after 1997 it say to tow a trailer over 750 kg mam the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer can't exceed 3500kg. No mention of mam of both unlike for licences after 2013
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car

Click to expand...

The dumb silly prats at the DVLA missed off the word MAM in error and they know it but refuse to change it

The word MAM is there in law - just not online

I say missed it off but it could be they copied that bit without MAM from a PDF where above that wording is the caveat - all weights refer to MAM weights - and that caveat has not been moved across to the online pages

The licence laws are the same for all no matter when they passed - be easier if they just showed what the current rules are without keeping old rules on the pages


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## Buckskinspots (8 July 2015)

Ah I see, thank you for clarifying


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## daisy123 (8 July 2015)

Hi rog I've got myself a nice single cheval mare and foal trailer 1400kg arriving next week after been fully serviced.  Thanks again for all your help can't wait to get out showing etc


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## ROG (8 July 2015)

daisy123 said:



			Hi rog I've got myself a nice single cheval mare and foal trailer 1400kg arriving next week after been fully serviced.  Thanks again for all your help can't wait to get out showing etc 

Click to expand...

Nice one - have fun towing on your B licence


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## daisy123 (8 July 2015)

ROG said:



			Nice one - have fun towing on your B licence
		
Click to expand...

Oh I intend to after failing 2 b+e tests. Haha


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## ROG (8 July 2015)

daisy123 said:



			Oh I intend to after failing 2 b+e tests. Haha
		
Click to expand...

At least you have had some good training which prepares you for towing in general

now you can go at 30 mph in reverse with a trailer on .......... yes ? LOL


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## daisy123 (8 July 2015)

ROG said:



			At least you have had some good training which prepares you for towing in general

now you can go at 30 mph in reverse with a trailer on .......... yes ? LOL
		
Click to expand...


That's what I thought not a complete waste of money as I know what I'm doing.. just I now need to tow with a horse instead of barrels of water in the trailer. Was good down bumpy roads it felt like a horse was throwing it's weight about. Haha. As for go backwards at 30mph I don't think I'll ever be that good lol


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## ROG (8 July 2015)

daisy123 said:



			That's what I thought not a complete waste of money as I know what I'm doing.. just I now need to tow with a horse instead of barrels of water in the trailer. Was good down bumpy roads it felt like a horse was throwing it's weight about. Haha. As for go backwards at 30mph I don't think I'll ever be that good lol
		
Click to expand...

You could in the future use your own current B licence towing set up for taking the B+E test but you would need to load the trailer with the required type of weight and get extra side mirrors for the examiner - you can then just book a test yourself and go for it without extra training - you would need L plates fitted whilst on the actual test


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## daisy123 (8 July 2015)

When I asked if I could do that I was told no. I had a fair idea that I could. That's brilliant to know as I'm much more confident driving my own car as I'm used to it. After driving mine then jumping into another I get nervous. I'll do that in future. Thanks again rog x


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## ROG (8 July 2015)

daisy123 said:



			When I asked if I could do that I was told no.
		
Click to expand...

Who by ?


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## daisy123 (8 July 2015)

ROG said:



			Who by ?
		
Click to expand...

By a trailer towing  company near me


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## ROG (8 July 2015)

daisy123 said:



			By a trailer towing  company near me
		
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In their financial interest to say that !!

I would love to call them and ask them that question ....... but thats the devil in me
Not mentioning you in any way of course


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## daisy123 (8 July 2015)

ROG said:



			In their financial interest to say that !!
		
Click to expand...

Yes that's what I thought. More financial money for them


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## ROG (8 July 2015)

daisy123 said:



			Yes that's what I thought. More financial money for them
		
Click to expand...

I really am wanting to call them and ask


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## daisy123 (8 July 2015)

daisy123 said:



			Yes that's what I thought. More financial money for them
		
Click to expand...




ROG said:



			I really am wanting to call them and ask
		
Click to expand...

1st class solutions goole centre lol


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## ROG (8 July 2015)

daisy123 said:



			1st class solutions goole centre lol
		
Click to expand...

ooh ta !!


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## ROG (10 July 2015)

Computer in for service/repair etc until next weekend so bear with me if I do not get hold of another until then


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## Clannad48 (12 July 2015)

ROG - I need your advice please - I was at an event at the weekend and was told by another competitor's husband (who informed me that he was a serving police officer) that my vehicle was not legally able to tow my trailer+horse - could you advise me either way - 

My vehicle: 2005 Jeep Cherokee 2.8CRD Automatic - gross vehicle weight 2520kg with a maximum braked towing weight of 3360kg
My trailer - 2004 Ifor Williams HB505R - unladen weight 905kg, weight capacity 1435kg, max gross weight 2340kg
My horse - weight (weighed at competition 09/07/2015) - 535kg
People + kit - 160kg

I did not want to argue with him - just said I would check it out, however he was convinced he was right.

BTW I passed my test in 1972


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## AllyTucky (15 July 2015)

Please could I ask for help......
I passed my test after 1997 so was thinking I need to pass the b&e before reading all the information from ROG. 

So my car is a 2008 BMW touring 320d msport.
All the phrases used for weights vary and I get confused. I have provided what I can find below. 

The manual states kerb weight is 1595
The manual states permitted gross weight is 2060

Log book states max permissible mass as 2060

Log book states braked weight 1600

I want to tow an Ifor Williams single horse trailer HB401 (Old style single horsebox) is 1100kg. The HB401s unladen weight is 770kg and its maximum gross weight is 1600kg.

I'm thinking I have to have the trailer downplated in order for the car to tow and so I dont have to pass the b&e??

Aaaahhhhrrrrrrrrr


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## JadeandMalix (17 July 2015)

Hi Rog 

I am a B license holder
I am looking at purchasing a Ford Kuga 2.0 4WD.

Curb weight 1613
GVW 2130
Max towing weight 2100

Could you tell me what KG I could tow with this?

I currently have an old rice pony trailer, weighing approx 700kgs. 

Many thanks


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## ROG (18 July 2015)

Clannad48 said:



			ROG - I need your advice please - I was at an event at the weekend and was told by another competitor's husband (who informed me that he was a serving police officer) that my vehicle was not legally able to tow my trailer+horse - could you advise me either way - 

My vehicle: 2005 Jeep Cherokee 2.8CRD Automatic - gross vehicle weight 2520kg with a maximum braked towing weight of 3360kg
My trailer - 2004 Ifor Williams HB505R - unladen weight 905kg, weight capacity 1435kg, max gross weight 2340kg
My horse - weight (weighed at competition 09/07/2015) - 535kg
People + kit - 160kg

I did not want to argue with him - just said I would check it out, however he was convinced he was right.

BTW I passed my test in 1972
		
Click to expand...

MMTM ........ and was talking out of their ****

Bet they did not explain why it was not supposed to be legal


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## ROG (18 July 2015)

AllyTucky said:



			Please could I ask for help......
I passed my test after 1997 so was thinking I need to pass the b&e before reading all the information from ROG. 

So my car is a 2008 BMW touring 320d msport.
All the phrases used for weights vary and I get confused. I have provided what I can find below. 

The manual states kerb weight is 1595
The manual states permitted gross weight is 2060

Log book states max permissible mass as 2060

Log book states braked weight 1600

I want to tow an Ifor Williams single horse trailer HB401 (Old style single horsebox) is 1100kg. The HB401&#8217;s unladen weight is 770kg and its maximum gross weight is 1600kg.

I'm thinking I have to have the trailer downplated in order for the car to tow and so I dont have to pass the b&e??

Aaaahhhhrrrrrrrrr
		
Click to expand...

you are correct - you need to contact IW and have it down plated to say 1400
at 1400 it can be loaded with 630 kg

Cost is about £50 and you need to remove old plate and send it to IW with money then fix new plate when it arrives


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## ROG (18 July 2015)

JadeandMalix said:



			Hi Rog 

I am a B license holder
I am looking at purchasing a Ford Kuga 2.0 4WD.

Curb weight 1613
GVW 2130
Max towing weight 2100

Could you tell me what KG I could tow with this?

I currently have an old rice pony trailer, weighing approx 700kgs. 

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

The max PLATED WEIGHT you can tow is 1370

Rice trailers cannot be replated as Rice is no longer trading

If you do not have a weight plate then the total of all the tyre load ratings is regarded legally as the plated MAM weight
see post 2000 for more info


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## NicandLiv (20 July 2015)

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
*B*
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
*1584*
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
*2320*
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
*2000*
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
I dunno I can't seem to find this out, I am looking at this one
http://www.batesontrailers.com/product/horse-trailers/derby-lightweight-horse-pony/
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
*675kg*



So I really want to know, if it's legal to tow with this car, this trailer, and a 410kg pony. Thank you


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## ROG (20 July 2015)

NicandLiv said:



			I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
*B*
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
*1584*
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
*2320*
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
*2000*
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
I dunno I can't seem to find this out, I am looking at this one
http://www.batesontrailers.com/product/horse-trailers/derby-lightweight-horse-pony/
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
*675kg*



So I really want to know, if it's legal to tow with this car, this trailer, and a 410kg pony. Thank you
		
Click to expand...

You have a 3500 kg max plated weight limit on your B licence

You have already used 2320 of that limit as that is the plated GVW of the vehicle so that leaves 1180 max plated weight for the trailer

The Bateson derby trailer is plated at 1700 but can be down plated to 1180
Derby trailer is 675 empty so down plated to 1180 leaves 505 kg for the trailer load

YIPPEE !! - it can be done with 95 kg trailer load space to spare

Contact Bateson to down plate - remove and send them the plate with about a tenner - they send you new plate to fix on


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## NicandLiv (20 July 2015)

That makes a whole lot of sense, thank you.  

Would you say it was safe enough to do this or would your recommend getting a b and e license and a larger car?


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## ROG (20 July 2015)

NicandLiv said:



			That makes a whole lot of sense, thank you.  

Would you say it was safe enough to do this or would your recommend getting a b and e license and a larger car?
		
Click to expand...

Depends what sort of terrain you are going to tow on


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## NicandLiv (20 July 2015)

Only local, flat ish no steep hills, just go to to some shows and whatnot. Wouldn't be doing anything long distance or up in the wilderness with hills left right and centre


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## ROG (20 July 2015)

NicandLiv said:



			Only local, flat ish no steep hills, just go to to some shows and whatnot. Wouldn't be doing anything long distance or up in the wilderness with hills left right and centre
		
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If its all on firm ground then a normal car will suffice


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## Greg Felix (21 July 2015)

Hi can you please tell me if this is a legal set-up?
1. B+E
2.Kerb weight - 1880 kg
3.GVW - 3080kg
4 Towing weight - 2250kg
5 Trailer capacity - 2700kg (although I only tow 1500kg)
6. Unladen trailer weight 660kg


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## ROG (21 July 2015)

Greg Felix said:



			Hi can you please tell me if this is a legal set-up?
1. B+E
2.Kerb weight - 1880 kg
3.GVW - 3080kg
4 Towing weight - 2250kg
5 Trailer capacity - 2700kg (although I only tow 1500kg)
6. Unladen trailer weight 660kg
		
Click to expand...

Perfectly legal

The max actual weight you can tow behind the vehicle with that combination is 2250 (660 trailer + 1590 load)

PS - 660 seems very low for the empty trailer weight ...............


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## repeat (24 July 2015)

Hello,

Could you tell me if I'm legal please?

1 - B (passed in 1998)
2 - 1800 kg
3 - 2800 kg
4 - 5200 kg
5 - 750 kg
6 - 200 kg


Thanks!


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## ROG (24 July 2015)

repeat said:



			Hello,

Could you tell me if I'm legal please?

1 - B (passed in 1998)
2 - 1800 kg
3 - 2800 kg
4 - 5200 kg
5 - 750 kg
6 - 200 kg


Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

This cannot be a horse trailer !! LOL - what trailer is it ?

perfectly legal - the trailer can be loaded with 550 kg

As the max plated MAM is only 750 kg then its legal for you to tow it with any B category vehicle such as a transit with a 3500 GVW


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## repeat (24 July 2015)

ROG, I have to confess, I came across your great sticky post on the t4 forums and hadn't seen activity from you in a while on there so I followed the link you gave which lead here. It's actually for camping or a very small horse.
If you want to check out the thread: http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=180222 you can see my details (don't want to affect the great work you are doing here) on your original sticky and the confusion I have with the DVLA rules.
Cheers for the quick reply.

Paul


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## ROG (24 July 2015)

repeat said:



			ROG, I have to confess, I came across your great sticky post on the t4 forums and hadn't seen activity from you in a while on there so I followed the link you gave which lead here. It's actually for camping or a very small horse.
If you want to check out the thread: http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=180222 you can see my details (don't want to affect the great work you are doing here) on your original sticky and the confusion I have with the DVLA rules.
Cheers for the quick reply.

Paul
		
Click to expand...

Not a problem as a few have found me here and asked a one off question on this issue

I will go to that thread and log in if I can remember my password !!


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## Bobbly (24 July 2015)

Rog, I find I have to buy myself a tow  car as hubby and I are parting company and the landy is going too. I am looking at  Kia Sorento 2.5 XS diesel manual 2009 to tow  Wessex three horse trailer 1100kg unladen, 2600 max laden. I only use it for two, just wanted the extra space and they weigh no more than 1100kg. I am old and my licence is pre 97 . Will I be legal?


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## ROG (24 July 2015)

Bobbly said:



			Rog, I find I have to buy myself a tow  car as hubby and I are parting company and the landy is going too. I am looking at  Kia Sorento 2.5 XS diesel manual 2009 to tow  Wessex three horse trailer 1100kg unladen, 2600 max laden. I only use it for two, just wanted the extra space and they weigh no more than 1100kg. I am old and my licence is pre 97 . Will I be legal?
		
Click to expand...

As long as the towing capacity of the Sorento is at least 2200 kg then its all good legally


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## Masamf (28 July 2015)

1 - B, B1
 2 - 1471
 3 - 2050
 4 - Braked 1500
 5 - 1025
 6 - 675

Thank you


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## ROG (28 July 2015)

Masamf said:



			1 - B, B1
 2 - 1471
 3 - 2050
 4 - Braked 1500
 5 - 1025
 6 - 675

Thank you
		
Click to expand...

Is that the correct figure for number 5 ?

seems too low for a plated trailer MAM as it only leaves 350 for the trailer load


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## Masamf (28 July 2015)

Sorry not sure as I haven't actually got the trailer but this is what the Spec shows?

Trailer weight and capacity (Kg) 

 Gross weight   Unladen weight   Capacity  
 1700                   675                  1025 

The Trailer is a Bateson Derby, if that's any help?


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## ROG (28 July 2015)

Masamf said:



			Sorry not sure as I haven't actually got the trailer but this is what the Spec shows?

Trailer weight and capacity (Kg) 

 Gross weight   Unladen weight   Capacity  
 1700                   675                  1025 

The Trailer is a Bateson Derby, if that's any help?
		
Click to expand...

It is 1700 MAM

To be legal you would need to contact Bateson, remove plate and then send them that with a tenner to have it down plated to 1450
They send you new plate to fix on

At 1450 it would have a max trailer load of 775 kgs (1450 - 675 = 775)

1450 + 2050 = 3500 = the legal max for B towing

If you only need the trailer to be loaded with a max of say 550 then I would down plate to 1300 so that if you got another tow vehicle in the future with a GVW of 2200 you would not need to down plate again


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## Masamf (28 July 2015)

Thank you for your help, my horse is only about 350kg so I have been saying 400 to be extra sure, therefore it sounds like I would be ok if I got the plate dropped to say 1,300 like you say?


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## ROG (28 July 2015)

Masamf said:



			Thank you for your help, my horse is only about 350kg so I have been saying 400 to be extra sure, therefore it sounds like I would be ok if I got the plate dropped to say 1,300 like you say?
		
Click to expand...

I reckon you could down plate to 1200 if you wanted to as 1200 - 675 = 525 for trailer load and that means you can tow it with any vehicle which has a GVW of 2300 or less


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## Masamf (28 July 2015)

Great thank you so much for your help, it really has made it easier for me, no trailer test for me then  Thank you again


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## Gem Gill (1 August 2015)

If someone hasn't already asked.... I have a lwb landrover 110. Ifor williams 510, how much horse can I add? Post 1997 licence. Have additional b+E test


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## ROG (1 August 2015)

Gem Gill said:



			If someone hasn't already asked.... I have a lwb landrover 110. Ifor williams 510, how much horse can I add? Post 1997 licence. Have additional b+E test
		
Click to expand...

What are the weights ? .......

Landy GVW and GTW - top two figures on the weight plate OR max toaing weight listed on V5 form

I think the 510 is 920 empty and 2340 MAM ?


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## dornrose (1 August 2015)

ROG said:



			What are the weights ? .......


I think the 510 is 920 empty and 2340 MAM ?
		
Click to expand...

That's the weights for a 505 a 510 is 1000kgs empty and 2584 MAM


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## ROG (1 August 2015)

dornrose said:



			That's the weights for a 505 a 510 is 1000kgs empty and 2584 MAM
		
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Ta - I was trying to do it from memory without checking !!


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## Meandtheboys (2 August 2015)

For a friend - who can actually supervise a 'L' driver before they take their trailer test , licence type and insurance restrictions ( apologies if in another response but I could not find one )


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## ROG (2 August 2015)

Meandtheboys said:



			For a friend - who can actually supervise a 'L' driver before they take their trailer test , licence type and insurance restrictions ( apologies if in another response but I could not find one )
		
Click to expand...

Are you looking for this ........

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## Meandtheboys (2 August 2015)

ROG said:



			Are you looking for this ........

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving
		
Click to expand...

Perfect............


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## Blackbeauts (6 August 2015)

Hi all, I've tried searching through this thread but I am on my phone & it won't work. Could anyone help me with figuring out what I can tow please?

I have just bought an ifor 505 & a X Trail. I have looked under the bonnet & found the following numbers but I'm not entirely sure which one is which.

2170
4170
1 - 1180
2- 1170

The Ifor I think has a max gross weight of 2340 & 905 for unlaiden weight. I would only be towing one 500kg horse. 

Currently I have a B licence but my insurance company will cover me to drive with a supervisor & L Plates until I do my test. Could I potentially down plate the trailer so that I could legally tow with my current licence?


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## ROG (6 August 2015)

Blackbeauts said:



			Hi all, I've tried searching through this thread but I am on my phone & it won't work. Could anyone help me with figuring out what I can tow please?

I have just bought an ifor 505 & a X Trail. I have looked under the bonnet & found the following numbers but I'm not entirely sure which one is which.

2170
4170
1 - 1180
2- 1170

The Ifor I think has a max gross weight of 2340 & 905 for unlaiden weight. I would only be towing one 500kg horse. 

Currently I have a B licence but my insurance company will cover me to drive with a supervisor & L Plates until I do my test. Could I potentially down plate the trailer so that I could legally tow with my current licence?
		
Click to expand...

2170 is your vehicle GVW 
your max actual weight towing capacity is 2000

On a B licence the max plated MAM for a trailer is 1330

If you down plated the 505 to 1330 it would only leave 425 for the trailer load/horse

Under B+E learner rules you can load 1095 into the trailer (2000 - 905 = 1095)

A lighter trailer such as a 401/3 down plated to 1330 would allow for a trailer load of 550 (1330 - 780 = 550)


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## Blackbeauts (6 August 2015)

ROG said:



			2170 is your vehicle GVW 
your max actual weight towing capacity is 2000

On a B licence the max plated MAM for a trailer is 1330

If you down plated the 505 to 1330 it would only leave 425 for the trailer load/horse

Under B+E learner rules you can load 1095 into the trailer (2000 - 905 = 1095)

A lighter trailer such as a 401/3 down plated to 1330 would allow for a trailer load of 550 (1330 - 780 = 550)
		
Click to expand...

Thank-you Rog. There is so much conflicting advice all over the internet but you have made it really clear!


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## gina2201 (8 August 2015)

Hvaing just sold my perfect towing vehicle (Range Rover!) to buy a daily driver including for work I'm looking at getting another vehicle purely for towing, considering an Audi A4 quattro (year approx 2004), figures as below - couldn't find the GVW so this may be incorrect but searched this thread and thought I came across it?

I will only need to tow one horse of 515kg (weighed on a weighbridge recently) however will probably end up doing my B+E test in the near future regardless of whether I am legal now or not for future proofing!

1 - B
2 &#8211; 1645kg
3 &#8211; 2120kg
4 &#8211; 2000kg
5 &#8211; 2340kg
6 &#8211; 905kg

many thanks

Gina


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## ROG (9 August 2015)

gina2201 said:



			Hvaing just sold my perfect towing vehicle (Range Rover!) to buy a daily driver including for work I'm looking at getting another vehicle purely for towing, considering an Audi A4 quattro (year approx 2004), figures as below - couldn't find the GVW so this may be incorrect but searched this thread and thought I came across it?

I will only need to tow one horse of 515kg (weighed on a weighbridge recently) however will probably end up doing my B+E test in the near future regardless of whether I am legal now or not for future proofing!

1 - B
2  1645kg
3  2120kg
4  2000kg
5  2340kg
6  905kg

many thanks

Gina
		
Click to expand...

Not legal at the moment

GVW looks about right at 2120 but to be certain the weight plate on the car needs finding - the top figure of the 4 listed is the GVW

With a GVW of 2120 then the max trailer MAM for B towing is 1380 so 2340 is too high

With a HB401/3 (weighs 780 empty) you could have it down plated by IW from 1600 to 1380 which leaves 600 for the trailer load 

Down plating the current trailer will (weighs 905 empty) not work as it would leave only 475 for the trailer load

You need a lighter trailer


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## gina2201 (10 August 2015)

I figured I would, looking at either a Bateson trailers which seem lighter or I just do my test anyway as I will no doubt end up buying another 4x4 down the line so would be worth me doing. At the moment my yard owner drives and tows us (passed pre 97) although we are not out and about much right now!


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## ROG (10 August 2015)

gina2201 said:



			I figured I would, looking at either a Bateson trailers which seem lighter or I just do my test anyway as I will no doubt end up buying another 4x4 down the line so would be worth me doing. At the moment my yard owner drives and tows us (passed pre 97) although we are not out and about much right now!
		
Click to expand...

You can tow with them next to you ............

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## neverenoughtea (11 August 2015)

Hi ROG,

I've just bought a Ifor Williams 401 and plan to tow with my 2008 Honda CRV (2.2 Diesel).

Could you advise whether I am exempt from taking my trailer test (passed B test in 2004):


1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
B
 2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
1350kg
 3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
not entirely sure...
 4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
2000kg
 5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
1600kg
 6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer 
770kg

Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...come-to-HHO-Towing-Clinic#BT4B3zwrSERpQqrS.99


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## neverenoughtea (11 August 2015)

oh ps my horse is around 600kg


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## ROG (11 August 2015)

neverenoughtea said:



			Hi ROG,

I've just bought a Ifor Williams 401 and plan to tow with my 2008 Honda CRV (2.2 Diesel).

Could you advise whether I am exempt from taking my trailer test (passed B test in 2004):


1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
B
 2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
1350kg
 3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
not entirely sure...
 4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
2000kg
 5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
1600kg
 6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer 
770kg

Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...come-to-HHO-Towing-Clinic#BT4B3zwrSERpQqrS.99

Click to expand...

number 3 = 2160 according to this - http://www.autoevolution.com/cars/honda-cr-v-2007.html#aeng_honda-cr-v-2007-22-cdti but to be certain find the hidden weight plate under the bonnet or in a door frame and the top of the 4 figures is the GVW

At 2160 GVW the trailer will need down plating to a max of 1340 MAM from 1600 MAM by contacting IW
Down plating will mean removing trailer weight plate then sending it to IW with about £50 then IW send new plate back in post for you to fix on

How heavy is your horse ? = EDIT just seen its 600 so down plating to 1340 - 780 empty weight = max load of 560 !!!

Gonna need a vehicle with a lower GVW or a lighter trailer such as a Bateson Derby at 675 then plated at 1340 leaves 665 for the load


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## Mark1892 (12 August 2015)

Hi ROG
Looking at buying an X Trail with an Ifor 505. I have B+E as well as C+E so I am OK but my wife passed her test in 1998 so only has B licence with B+E provisional. Towing one pony weighing 450 kg. Reading the above posts I'm guessing the max weight capacity of the trailer would push her over the 3500kg. 

1 - B
2 - 1595 kg  Unladen weight of X-trail
3 - 2170 GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - 2000 kg
5 - 2340 kg
6 - 905 kg

Would a Mondeo with 1576 kerb & 1800 kg towing capcity bring her under the weight or would she need a lightweight trailer too (downgraded or not) ? I don't mind driving most times but just incase.

Many thanks 
Mark


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## ROG (12 August 2015)

Mark1892 said:



			Hi ROG
Looking at buying an X Trail with an Ifor 505. I have B+E as well as C+E so I am OK but my wife passed her test in 1998 so only has B licence with B+E provisional. Towing one pony weighing 450 kg. Reading the above posts I'm guessing the max weight capacity of the trailer would push her over the 3500kg. 

1 - B
2 - 1595 kg  Unladen weight of X-trail
3 - 2170 GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - 2000 kg
5 - 2340 kg
6 - 905 kg

Would a Mondeo with 1576 kerb & 1800 kg towing capcity bring her under the weight or would she need a lightweight trailer too (downgraded or not) ? I don't mind driving most times but just incase.

Many thanks 
Mark
		
Click to expand...

Over for B towing by 1010kg (4510-3500=1010)

Mondeo GVW needed but likely to be around 2100kg so still over

Wife can always drive with you in passenger seat under her current B+E provisional 

A lightweight down plated trailer is the way to go if only needed for 1 horse
HB401/3
Bateson Derby
To name but a few trailers that would work down plated


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## Mark1892 (12 August 2015)

ROG said:



			Over for B towing by 1010kg (4510-3500=1010)

Mondeo GVW needed but likely to be around 2100kg so still over

Wife can always drive with you in passenger seat under her current B+E provisional 

A lightweight down plated trailer is the way to go if only needed for 1 horse
HB401/3
Bateson Derby
To name but a few trailers that would work down plated
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, looks like my weekends are going to be booked up from now until tow test is passed lol.


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## ROG (12 August 2015)

Mark1892 said:



			Thanks, looks like my weekends are going to be booked up from now until tow test is passed lol.
		
Click to expand...

Always let the wife drive and reverse as that will reduce the need for lots of expensive training 

See post number 2000 of this thread for loads more info


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## Mark1892 (12 August 2015)

ROG said:



			Always let the wife drive and reverse as that will reduce the need for lots of expensive training 

See post number 2000 of this thread for loads more info
		
Click to expand...

That will be the plan, thanks you've been a great help. Just one last thing.... If the maximum towing weight of a vehicle is only 2000kg, can you not tow an Ifor 505 with a 450 kg pony in (1355kg) because the maximum of that trailer is still 2340kg? Hence the reason for downgrading?


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## ROG (12 August 2015)

Mark1892 said:



			That will be the plan, thanks you've been a great help. Just one last thing.... If the maximum towing weight of a vehicle is only 2000kg, can you not tow an Ifor 505 with a 450 kg pony in (1355kg) because the maximum of that trailer is still 2340kg? Hence the reason for downgrading?
		
Click to expand...

There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to cope with the plated MAM of a trailer but there are plenty of internet myths stating otherwise !!

In the case you cited the max load for the trailer will be 2000 - 905 = 1095 kg


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## ROG (12 August 2015)

a PS to the last question - 

As a C+E driver can you imagine what would happen if the artic trailers had to be replated each time because of the listed GTW of the unit ? !!!!!!


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## Tayto (13 August 2015)

Hello - apologies if this has been done but I don't have time to read through all the posts!

Is it a legal requirement that you must have have an audible or visible "announcement" that the towing indicators are working? I have a 12 plate swb shogun and the garage I bought it from says its not a legal requirement but I am sure I saw somewhere that it is...


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## ROG (13 August 2015)

Tayto said:



			Hello - apologies if this has been done but I don't have time to read through all the posts!

Is it a legal requirement that you must have have an audible or visible "announcement" that the towing indicators are working? I have a 12 plate swb shogun and the garage I bought it from says its not a legal requirement but I am sure I saw somewhere that it is...
		
Click to expand...

Not a legal requirement but you are responsible for ensuring they do work at the start of your journey

In most cases when a bulb has gone they tend to flash very quickly so the driver knows something is up by either a faster than normal audible sound or the dash indicator going faster than normal


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## lonelyhorse (17 August 2015)

Hi could you tell me if this would be legal please?

1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle  - 1615
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2170
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2200
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 1700
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 675

I think this would not be legal at the moment as the MAM of the trailer is too high? What would I need to downplate it to to be legal? Thanks!


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## ROG (17 August 2015)

lonelyhorse said:



			Hi could you tell me if this would be legal please?

1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle  - 1615
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2170
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2200
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 1700
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 675

I think this would not be legal at the moment as the MAM of the trailer is too high? What would I need to downplate it to to be legal? Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

You have a Bateson Derby I reckon ?!!

You need to contact Bateson 0161 426 0500 and get them to down plate the trailer from 1700 to 1300 as that would make the total MAM 3470 which is under the 3500 limit for B towing

1300 minus 675 = 625 for the trailer load/horse

Bateson down plate usually goes like this - 
You remove weight plate and send to Bateson with about a tenner and a note stating what it wants down plating to
They send you new plate which you fix to trailer
You need a drill and a pop rivet gun


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## lonelyhorse (17 August 2015)

Thanks so much! Haven't got the trailer yet but am planning to buy it new from Bateson who say they are happy to down plate it before it arrives, only need to carry one pony so that's great! Thanks


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## ROG (17 August 2015)

lonelyhorse said:



			Thanks so much! Haven't got the trailer yet but am planning to buy it new from Bateson who say they are happy to down plate it before it arrives, only need to carry one pony so that's great! Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Had I know you were buying it new then I would have said just ask Bateson to plate it at 1300 but you made me write all that stuff about getting it down plated once you have it !!! = LOL = rotter !!


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## lonelyhorse (17 August 2015)

lol - sorry!! Thanks for your (detailed) help though!


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## ROG (17 August 2015)

lonelyhorse said:



			lol - sorry!! Thanks for your (detailed) help though!
		
Click to expand...

No worries - it will help anyone else reading in a similar position


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## Tayto (20 August 2015)

ROG said:



			Not a legal requirement but you are responsible for ensuring they do work at the start of your journey

In most cases when a bulb has gone they tend to flash very quickly so the driver knows something is up by either a faster than normal audible sound or the dash indicator going faster than normal
		
Click to expand...

Thank you!!


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## LA&Murph (27 August 2015)

Just double checking my figures before I seriously look into the logistics and pricing of this!  Also, suggestions of what to downplate to on the models it's needed on, horse is max 450kg.

1 - B 
2 - 1595 (2007 Rav4 2.2l D4D)
3 - 2190
4 - 4190 (giving towing capacity of 2000?)
5 - Thinking of an HB403 at 1600 (would need downplated though, am I right?) or a Cheval Liberte, one is 1400, the other is also 1600 and would need downplated
6 - HB403 is 767, Chevals are both 720


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## ROG (27 August 2015)

LA&Murph said:



			Just double checking my figures before I seriously look into the logistics and pricing of this!  Also, suggestions of what to downplate to on the models it's needed on, horse is max 450kg.

1 - B 
2 - 1595 (2007 Rav4 2.2l D4D)
3 - 2190
4 - 4190 (giving towing capacity of 2000?)
5 - Thinking of an HB403 at 1600 (would need downplated though, am I right?) or a Cheval Liberte, one is 1400, the other is also 1600 and would need downplated
6 - HB403 is 767, Chevals are both 720
		
Click to expand...

4 = correct = 2000

Max plated MAM for trailer = 1300 

2190 + 1300 = 3490 which is 10 inside the max 3500 limit for B towing


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## cheekywelshie (31 August 2015)

Apologies for being such a dunce but if you had the lightest trailer - i.e. a Bateson Derby one http://www.batesontrailers.com/product/horse-trailers/derby-lightweight-horse-pony/ , what car would you need to tow it? I had looked at the dusters as they are affordable but maybe just don't have the torque?? I would be towing one horse who is about 550-580 depending on how much I can keep his weight down!


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## ROG (31 August 2015)

cheekywelshie said:



			Apologies for being such a dunce but if you had the lightest trailer - i.e. a Bateson Derby one http://www.batesontrailers.com/product/horse-trailers/derby-lightweight-horse-pony/ , what car would you need to tow it? I had looked at the dusters as they are affordable but maybe just don't have the torque?? I would be towing one horse who is about 550-580 depending on how much I can keep his weight down!
		
Click to expand...

The vehicle needed to tow it would need to have at least a towing capacity of 1255 (675+580=1255) but I would go for one with at least a 1300 towing capacity 

The licence needed would depend on the vehicle GVW added to the plated MAM of the trailer


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## cheekywelshie (31 August 2015)

At the minute I still only have cat B after a disastrous attempt at the test (completely fell apart before I got to the test centre after a dreadful lesson beforehand!)

Shame about the duster as that's a car i could afford to run...but I read somewhere that it is 1,200kg braked trailer weight.  Is that the towing capacity?? I am confused as there have been references to 1500 but i think that is the size of the car engine as opposed to towing! I would only be towing one horse owing to the license. What trailer weight would you need?

http://www.dacia.co.uk/vehicles/dus...05d0075b93/Dacia_Duster_E-Brochure_200913.pdf

At the bottom it says 1200 then 1500 towing capacity i think the 1500 is the diesel? It says max unbaked 660 - whatever that means!..the diesel one has 680


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## ROG (31 August 2015)

cheekywelshie said:



			At the minute I still only have cat B after a disastrous attempt at the test (completely fell apart before I got to the test centre after a dreadful lesson beforehand!)

Shame about the duster as that's a car i could afford to run...but I read somewhere that it is 1,200kg braked trailer weight.  Is that the towing capacity?? I am confused as there have been references to 1500 but i think that is the size of the car engine as opposed to towing! I would only be towing one horse owing to the license. What trailer weight would you need?

http://www.dacia.co.uk/vehicles/dus...05d0075b93/Dacia_Duster_E-Brochure_200913.pdf

At the bottom it says 1200 then 1500 towing capacity i think the 1500 is the diesel? It says max unbaked 660 - whatever that means!..the diesel one has 680
		
Click to expand...

Braked towing weight = max towing capacity

Depending what model you go for will determine what that is but looking at it it seems that only the 4x4 models have the 1500 which is what you need

If you did go for a 4x4 model then down plating a Derby trailer from 1700 to 1300 will have you sorted for B licence towing


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## cheekywelshie (31 August 2015)

Thank you that is really helpful! What is the max towing weight of a trailer that the 1500 could handle? Is that the 1300?  'When it says The maximum gross weight is 1700kg but this can be reduced as required if used with only one horse. ' on the website how do you go about reducing it? (sorry daft questions!!)


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## ROG (31 August 2015)

cheekywelshie said:



			Thank you that is really helpful! What is the max towing weight of a trailer that the 1500 could handle? Is that the 1300?  'When it says The maximum gross weight is 1700kg but this can be reduced as required if used with only one horse. ' on the website how do you go about reducing it? (sorry daft questions!!)
		
Click to expand...

Max actual weight the 4x4 Dacia can handle will be 1500 but as its got a 2200 GVW then the max plated weight the trailer can be is 1300 for B towing

Down plating a Bateson trailer is easy - 
Contact Bateson with the trailer details = 0161 426 0500
Send the 1700 plate along with the fee - about a tenner I think
They send you new 1300 plate for you to fit on
You need access to a drill and a pop rivet gun


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## LA&Murph (31 August 2015)

ROG said:



			4 = correct = 2000

Max plated MAM for trailer = 1300 

2190 + 1300 = 3490 which is 10 inside the max 3500 limit for B towing
		
Click to expand...

Excellent, thank you very much for your help!


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## patchwork puzzle (1 September 2015)

I'm hoping that you could please confirm for me whether I can tow a trailer with my vehicle on my B licence.*

Vehicle*
weighs 1759Kg
braked tow weight 2600kg

Trailer
weighs 910kg
Mam 2340kg

I am unable to decipher from the dvla website as it only say's that the combined weight must not exceed 3500kg but is this the actual or the maximum. If it is the*
maximum I presume it to be 2600kg as this is the higher of the two maximum capacities (as to combine the two maximums would greatly exceed either vehicles maximum making it an impossibility to tow?)*

Thank you very much.


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## ROG (1 September 2015)

patchwork puzzle said:



			I'm hoping that you could please confirm for me whether I can tow a trailer with my vehicle on my B licence.*

Vehicle*
weighs 1759Kg
braked tow weight 2600kg

Trailer
weighs 910kg
Mam 2340kg

I am unable to decipher from the dvla website as it only say's that the combined weight must not exceed 3500kg but is this the actual or the maximum. If it is the*
maximum I presume it to be 2600kg as this is the higher of the two maximum capacities (as to combine the two maximums would greatly exceed either vehicles maximum making it an impossibility to tow?)*

Thank you very much.
		
Click to expand...

There is one major figure missing - the vehicle GVW

However, from looking at the trailer MAM of 2340 I will say no as it only leaves 1160 for the vehicle GVW

The 3500 limit is the vehicle GVW added to the trailer MAM


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## patchwork puzzle (1 September 2015)

I found it, the Gvw is 2400kg, so I'd need to downplate this trailer or look for one (if it exists without downplating) that has a mam of 1100kg?
If then the actual unladen weights combined and total taken from 3500kg gave me enough Kg's left for my pony, me plus equipment, I could tow on a B licence?


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## ROG (1 September 2015)

Is this your vehicle ? 
Vauxhall Frontera 2.2 
Unladen = 1759
GVW = 2400
towing = 2600

If it is then 2400 + 2340 = 4740 so 1240 over the 3500 limit for B towing


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## ROG (1 September 2015)

patchwork puzzle said:



			I found it, the Gvw is 2400kg, so I'd need to downplate this trailer or look for one (if it exists without downplating) that has a mam of 1100kg?
If then the actual unladen weights combined and total taken from 3500kg gave me enough Kg's left for my pony, me plus equipment, I could tow on a B licence?
		
Click to expand...

SNAP !! - posted same time as you

No chance of using a trailer plated at 1100 for horse towing as the lightest empty trailer I know of is 675 so at 1100 that will only leave 425 for the trailer load/horse

If you were to down plate your current trailer to 1100 that leaves only 180 for the horse !!

You need a vehicle with a lower GVW for B towing


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## patchwork puzzle (1 September 2015)

Yes it is, and that's what I couldn't understand from the website as it doesn't say maximum, just the combined weight. I also don't understand how it can be both maximum capacities as that figure will always be well over and above either maximum and so you would never be towing that weight anyway?
Strange. 
Thank you anyway


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## ROG (1 September 2015)

patchwork puzzle said:



			Yes it is, and that's what I couldn't understand from the website as it doesn't say maximum, just the combined weight. I also don't understand how it can be both maximum capacities as that figure will always be well over and above either maximum and so you would never be towing that weight anyway?
Strange. 
Thank you anyway 

Click to expand...

Website missed off the word MAM when stating the 3500 limit - I have told DVLA some time ago about it !

Many on here tow on a B licence with one horse
Example
Nissan Xtrail
GVW 2200

IW HB 401/3 trailer
Empty 780
MAM 1600 but down plated to 1300
Max load for trailer 520
OR
Bateson Derby trailer
Empty 675
MAM 1700 but down plated to 1300
Max load for trailer 625

You need a different vehicle and trailer


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## patchwork puzzle (1 September 2015)

Oh ok, that makes sense, thank you. 
The vehicle is already mine and I have the option of using a friends trailer as she has now bought a box with the ultimate aim of buying my own trailer. I have just sold my old lorry though so can look at a different trailer 
Thanks again


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## ROG (1 September 2015)

patchwork puzzle said:



			Oh ok, that makes sense, thank you. 
The vehicle is already mine and I have the option of using a friends trailer as she has now bought a box with the ultimate aim of buying my own trailer. I have just sold my old lorry though so can look at a different trailer 
Thanks again
		
Click to expand...

No way of using B licence for any horsebox towing with your current vehicle so that must be changed for you to do it

you can drive any combination doing this - 

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## daisy123 (1 September 2015)

Hey Rog, been towing my girl all over to shows its great hook up and off we go. Have you any idea of weight needs to be in trailer to do trailer with my own trailer and car? Thanks


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## ROG (1 September 2015)

daisy123 said:



			Hey Rog, been towing my girl all over to shows its great hook up and off we go. Have you any idea of weight needs to be in trailer to do trailer with my own trailer and car? Thanks
		
Click to expand...

I assume the word TEST has been missed out ?

That being the case then .......

The trailer must now be loaded with 600 kgs of sand bags or a 1000 kgs water IBC for the test so most companies are now training with that weight in the trailer = https://www.gov.uk/new-laden-testing-rules-for-driving-test-vehicles 


This is interesting BUT NOT RECOMMENDED &#8211; a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test that means you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself. 
*DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS* =  http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_4022521 
Remember that the required 600 kgs of sand bags or 1 x 1000 IBC filled with water will be required in the trailer and the load must be secure.


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## dornrose (1 September 2015)

ROG said:



			I assume the word TEST has been missed out ?

That being the case then .......

The trailer must now be loaded with 600 kgs of sand bags or a 1000 kgs water IBC for the test so most companies are now training with that weight in the trailer = https://www.gov.uk/new-laden-testing-rules-for-driving-test-vehicles 


This is interesting BUT NOT RECOMMENDED &#8211; a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test that means you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself. 
*DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS* =  http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_4022521 
Remember that the required 600 kgs of sand bags or 1 x 1000 IBC filled with water will be required in the trailer and the load must be secure.
		
Click to expand...

One thing to remember that the sand bags must be a minimum of 10kgs each and be clearly marked preferably in clear plastic bags (properly sealed) - the water container need only be 600 litres but must be full to avoid the water slooshing around, so if you can only get a 1000kgs lbc it would also need to be full.  The examiner will check.


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## daisy123 (1 September 2015)

Thanks rog. Yes I missed the word test out silly me lol


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## ROG (1 September 2015)

dornrose said:



			One thing to remember that the sand bags must be a minimum of 10kgs each and be clearly marked preferably in clear plastic bags (properly sealed) - the water container need only be 600 litres but must be full to avoid the water slooshing around, so if you can only get a 1000kgs lbc it would also need to be full.  The examiner will check.
		
Click to expand...

Are you certain about the 600 IBC because it is not in the link about the requirements - the 1000 IBC is though ?


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## ROG (1 September 2015)

daisy123 said:



			Thanks rog. Yes I missed the word test out silly me lol
		
Click to expand...

Most cannot comply with all the requirements so opt to use the combinations supplied by B+E trainers


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## daisy123 (1 September 2015)

I might just go straight in for my test with a B+E trainer. Don't Need any training but will have to get used to their vehicle. That's why I wanted to use my own because I'm used to it.


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## ROG (1 September 2015)

daisy123 said:



			I might just go straight in for my test with a B+E trainer. Don't Need any training but will have to get used to their vehicle. That's why I wanted to use my own because I'm used to it.
		
Click to expand...

A one day bit of training with test later same day should do you


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## dornrose (1 September 2015)

Yes I am. The requirement is for a 600kgs weight I've had no complaints about it from examiners as long as it's full.

For those thinking of doing their test in their own car a lot of trainers will have no issues with that as long as your car is suitable for test purpose.


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## Blackbeauty007 (16 September 2015)

Hello can anyone help. 
I have the B license. 
Can I tow with 
I for Williams 505 unladen weight: 905kg. Horse in weighing 600kg. With a BMW X1 with towing capacity of 2000kg and unladen weight of car 1600kg?
Thank you x


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## ROG (16 September 2015)

Blackbeauty007 said:



			Hello can anyone help. 
I have the B license. 
Can I tow with 
I for Williams 505 unladen weight: 905kg. Horse in weighing 600kg. With a BMW X1 with towing capacity of 2000kg and unladen weight of car 1600kg?
Thank you x
		
Click to expand...

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/bmw/x1/gross-vehicle-weight/ = BMW X1 GVW ???? - which model is yours?
http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1063 = HB505 MAM 2340kg

BMW GVW + Trailer MAM 2340 must not total more than 3500 for B towing
Trailer MAM can be down plated by IW but that is unlikely to help in this situation as the 905 empty weight remains the same so down plating simply reduces the load capacity

Lets say your BMW model has a GVW of 2045kg then that leaves a max trailer plated MAM of 1455kg
Your horse is 600kg so that means the trailer needs to be a max of 855kg empty

You could tow this 600kg horse on a B licence with your BMW but you will need a trailer such as a HB401/3 down plated to 1450 which weighs 780kg empty leaving 670 for the horse = 70kg to spare

Your current trailer is no good for what you wish to do


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## ROG (16 September 2015)

Adding to my post above - 

If the BMW GVW is 2145 then you will need something like the Bateson Derby trailer which is 675 empty and can be down plated from 1700 to 1350 leaving 675 for the horse/trailer load

PS all the weights in your original post refer to actual weights but the driving licence rules go on the plated weights


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## Buckskinspots (20 September 2015)

Hi rog, can you confirm this is legal for b license

Subaru legacy estate 1600kg max braked tow weight and new ifor 403 with max weight of 1600kg

So comes to 3200kg


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## ROG (20 September 2015)

Buckskinspots said:



			Hi rog, can you confirm this is legal for b license

Subaru legacy estate 1600kg max braked tow weight and new ifor 403 with max weight of 1600kg

So comes to 3200kg
		
Click to expand...

Is it this model ? = http://www.autoevolution.com/cars/subaru-legacy-2003.html#aeng_subaru-legacy-2004-20-r
If it is then the GVW is 1930 kg so with the 1600 kg MAM trailer that makes 3530 total MAM which is 30 kg over the B towing limit

I REALLY need to know the GVW of your model ???????????????????????????????????

PS - if its this model = http://www.autoevolution.com/cars/subaru-legacy-wagon-2009.html#aeng_subaru-legacy-wagon-2009-20i then the GVW should be 1815 kg which added to 1600 trailer MAM is 3415 so within the B towing limit

Trailer can always be down plated a little to fit within the rules if needs be


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## Buckskinspots (20 September 2015)

I havnt bought it yet,was looking at one tomorrow.that's a ****** if it is 30 kg over


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## Buckskinspots (20 September 2015)

Whats the penalty if I'm over by 30 kg before its downplated?


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## Clannad48 (20 September 2015)

Hi all,

Just an odd bit of advice/information.  

I recently had work done on my car which apparently required the towball to be removed. Not a problem as it was refitted once the work was completed. I took the horse out in the trailer today and although everything seemed fine, it was just not quite right.  When we got back I realised that the towball had been replaced in higher holes than previously.  I realise that I should have checked before taking the trailer out but to be honest hadn't realised that the towball had required being moved to enable the work to be done.  I drive a Kia Sorento and the towbar has two sets of holes at different heights to bolt the towball to.


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## Blackbeauty007 (20 September 2015)

Thanks for the advice x


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## ROG (20 September 2015)

Buckskinspots said:



			Whats the penalty if I'm over by 30 kg before its downplated?
		
Click to expand...

Driving not in accordance with the licence which therefore invalidates the insurance so bye bye car !

Cheaper to pay IW about £50 to have the trailer down plated

Lets say the GVW of the one you are buying is 2000 kg then down plating the trailer from 1600 to 1500 will still leave at least 700 kg for the trailer load/horse


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## ROG (20 September 2015)

Have you bought the brand new 403 yet ?

If no then it can be down plated before you buy it


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## Buckskinspots (20 September 2015)

Hiring it for 6 months,then looking to buy it in a few months if my horse travels well in it so unable to downplate at moment. Currently towed with an x trail by my oh but ideally I need to tow.will be doing my trailer test asap. Will pm you some questions about test


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## ROG (20 September 2015)

Buckskinspots said:



			Hiring it for 6 months,then looking to buy it in a few months if my horse travels well in it so unable to downplate at moment. Currently towed with an x trail by my oh but ideally I need to tow.will be doing my trailer test asap. Will pm you some questions about test
		
Click to expand...

Check out post number 2000 of this thread as that has much more info which WILL be useful

Why is OH driving when towing when you can with L plates on and OH sitting in passenger seat = see post 2000


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## Buckskinspots (20 September 2015)

He does sit in with me but he works alot so not always available when I want to take one of the horses somewhere. What I really want to know is how hard is it to pass the test if I'm confident towing and can reverse well and without paying £500+ on 3 days training and just go for test.thanks


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## ROG (20 September 2015)

Buckskinspots said:



			He does sit in with me but he works alot so not always available when I want to take one of the horses somewhere. What I really want to know is how hard is it to pass the test if I'm confident towing and can reverse well and without paying £500+ on 3 days training and just go for test.thanks
		
Click to expand...

Everyone is different regarding tests

Due to the new test requirement rules for vehicles and trailers it is advisable to use a trainers set up for the test

I reckon you could do the lot in one day - train in morning then test in afternoon


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## Buckskinspots (20 September 2015)

Sadly all the local trainers only offer minimum 2/3 days training! 
More money making for them! 
The test centre is 60+ miles away so say they need a couple of days


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## ROG (20 September 2015)

Buckskinspots said:



			Sadly all the local trainers only offer minimum 2/3 days training! 
More money making for them
		
Click to expand...

Where in UK are you ?


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## Buckskinspots (20 September 2015)

Cumbria


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## ROG (20 September 2015)

Buckskinspots said:



			Cumbria
		
Click to expand...

I will have a search tomorrow and see what I can come up with


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## Buckskinspots (20 September 2015)

Thanks rog, superstar as always


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## ROG (21 September 2015)

http://www.cumbria-driving-lessons.co.uk/trailer-training-carlisle they do the B+E in one day or pm one day and test am next day but only at the Carlisle centre


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## Pixie88 (25 September 2015)

Hi 

I am planning my set up for next year (Plan is to get my 4x4 this winter, then trailer in spring). 

1 - B Licence
 2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle: 1640KG 05 plate Freelander
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle: 2080KG 05 Freelander
4 - GTW towing vehicle: 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer: 1600kg (this would need downgrading I think) 
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer: 767 kg 

From what I have worked out / researched if I get the trailer downplated to 1400 then I will be under the weight of 3500kg. Is it the Gross Vehicle Weight + Gross Trailer = 3480. 

I only have a 14.2 pony who weighs about 475. 
How do you go about getting it downplated? 
Does anybody have any other recommendations for 4x4 + single trailer? 

Thanks.


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## ROG (25 September 2015)

Pixie88 said:



			Hi 

I am planning my set up for next year (Plan is to get my 4x4 this winter, then trailer in spring). 

1 - B Licence
 2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle: 1640KG 05 plate Freelander
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle: 2080KG 05 Freelander
4 - GTW towing vehicle: 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer: 1600kg (this would need downgrading I think) 
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer: 767 kg 

From what I have worked out / researched if I get the trailer downplated to 1400 then I will be under the weight of 3500kg. Is it the Gross Vehicle Weight + Gross Trailer = 3480. 

I only have a 14.2 pony who weighs about 475. 
How do you go about getting it downplated? 
Does anybody have any other recommendations for 4x4 + single trailer? 

Thanks.
		
Click to expand...

I know that 4 should be max towing capacity = 1800

You have the rest of your figures and what you need to do spot on = well impressed !!!!

I guess the trailer is an HB401 or 403 so to down plate it you will need to Phone IFOR WILLIAMS on 01490 412527 - ask for customer care
IW will then ask you to remove the current plate and send it to them with about £50
IW then send you the new plate to fix on
You need access to a drill and a pop rivet gun


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## Pixie88 (25 September 2015)

ROG said:



			I know that 4 should be max towing capacity = 1800

You have the rest of your figures and what you need to do spot on = well impressed !!!!

I guess the trailer is an HB401 or 403 so to down plate it you will need to Phone IFOR WILLIAMS on 01490 412527 - ask for customer care
IW will then ask you to remove the current plate and send it to them with about £50
IW then send you the new plate to fix on
You need access to a drill and a pop rivet gun
		
Click to expand...


Fantastic - The headache I have from this! I have been going round in circles trying to work it all out! 
Yes, I am looking at a IW 401/403 as I know IW trailers I did consider the Chevel Liberte but we shall see. 

Thank you so much! I will keep all of these details for when I start looking.


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## ROG (26 September 2015)

Interesting thread on the issues if using your own set up for the B+E test in this thread = https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/showthread.php?709696-Are-you-there-ROG


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## Floxie (7 October 2015)

Ello, is this party still going? I don't have my trailer licence yet but am looking at vehicles with that in mind, hoping to pull a 16hh (550?) horse in an Ifor 510 (or rental trailers - obviously no idea what the figures are there!). I'm window shopping cars and have a Honda CR-V 2.2 i-CTDi in mind - I've seen people on HHO talking about using it to tow - so just trying to work out for definite if it's safe for one horse (and whether it would ever be for 2, just in case!). So the numbers are just all I could find online - hopefully correct - sorry about the missing bits!

1 - What licence - *intend on getting BE*
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - *1129kg (Honda CR-V 2.2 i-CTDi)*
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle *can't seem to find this sorry!*
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - *2000kg*
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer - *2700kg I think*
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - *1000kg (I think - Ifor 510)*

Any advice much appreciated!


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## ROG (7 October 2015)

Floxie said:



			Ello, is this party still going? I don't have my trailer licence yet but am looking at vehicles with that in mind, hoping to pull a 16hh (550?) horse in an Ifor 510 (or rental trailers - obviously no idea what the figures are there!). I'm window shopping cars and have a Honda CR-V 2.2 i-CTDi in mind - I've seen people on HHO talking about using it to tow - so just trying to work out for definite if it's safe for one horse (and whether it would ever be for 2, just in case!). So the numbers are just all I could find online - hopefully correct - sorry about the missing bits!

1 - What licence - *intend on getting BE*
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - *1129kg (Honda CR-V 2.2 i-CTDi)*
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle *can't seem to find this sorry!*
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - *2000kg*
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer - *2700kg I think*
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - *1000kg (I think - Ifor 510)*

Any advice much appreciated!
		
Click to expand...

Using B+E rules ......
You have a 2000 towing capacity with a trailer weighing 1000 which leaves 1000 for the trailer load/horse(s)

no need to bother with vehicle GVW for B+E towing - just needed towing capacity, trailer MAM and trailer empty weight which you have supplied


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## Floxie (7 October 2015)

Awesome, thank you very much! Much reassured, will keep shopping


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## Blackbeauty007 (7 October 2015)

1. B&E
2. 1505kg 
3. 
4. 1800kg
5. 2340kg
6. 905kg with a 600kg horse in. 

Thank u xx


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## ROG (7 October 2015)

Blackbeauty007 said:



			1. B&E
2. 1505kg 
3. 
4. 1800kg
5. 2340kg
6. 905kg with a 600kg horse in. 

Thank u xx
		
Click to expand...

Legal for B+E with 295 to spare in the trailer


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## Blackbeauty007 (7 October 2015)

Thank you. Do you think it's a bit too close to the max towing weight? X


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## ROG (7 October 2015)

Blackbeauty007 said:



			Thank you. Do you think it's a bit too close to the max towing weight? X
		
Click to expand...

Nope = well in


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## Blackbeauty007 (7 October 2015)

Thank you. That's out my mind at ease. Just need to pass the b & e test now x


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## ROG (7 October 2015)

Blackbeauty007 said:



			Thank you. That's out my mind at ease. Just need to pass the b & e test now x
		
Click to expand...

Until you do this may be an option .....

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## Blackbeauty007 (7 October 2015)

Thank you. I've been towing in this way for 3 years. I just need to pluck up the courage to do the actual test. X


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## ROG (7 October 2015)

Blackbeauty007 said:



			Thank you. I've been towing in this way for 3 years. I just need to pluck up the courage to do the actual test. X
		
Click to expand...

Doing it all in one day should be enough - train on trainers set up in the morning then test in afternoon


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## Blackbeauty007 (7 October 2015)

Thank you. I'll look into that. X


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## Buckskinspots (18 October 2015)

ROG said:



http://www.cumbria-driving-lessons.co.uk/trailer-training-carlisle they do the B+E in one day or pm one day and test am next day but only at the Carlisle centre
		
Click to expand...

Thanks rog,have actually booked with him for 6th November.fingers crossed!


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## ROG (23 October 2015)

baileys123 said:



			Hi, looking for some advice regarding towing!!!

I have recently bought a Ifor Williams 401r with a MAM of 1600kg and a unladen weight of 770kg...

I'm looking to buy a new car that I can tow this with legally! I've been looking at the Audi q3. 1450kg keeb weight and 2050kg vehicle weight. Could I tow legally with this if i downplate the trailer to 1400kg? I'm only wanting to tow a 550kg horse 

Any help appreciated before I ho totally grey! &#55357;&#56883;
		
Click to expand...

I do really think you need my help so lets start with what relevant info we need ...

Do you have B or B+E driving licence ?
What is the towing capacity of the Audi ?


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## ROG (26 October 2015)

Looks like baileys123 has done a runner - shame because they really do need my help !


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## Willow1306 (28 October 2015)

Hoping this is the right place to ask...

I'm looking to upgrade to a 4x4 and take my trailer test in order to be able to transport my 16.2hh WB. I would be hiring/borrowing trailers, so weights etc unknown.

The vehicle would be my every day car for commuting (26 mile round trip). 

Currently looking at Kia Sorento but unsure of the differences in spec. Is any one model recommended for towing capacity and overall economy to the others? Budget isn't huge. I understand that I'll have to compromise somewhere. 

Other suggestions for economical and reliable options most welcome.


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## ROG (28 October 2015)

Willow1306 said:



			Hoping this is the right place to ask...

I'm looking to upgrade to a 4x4 and take my trailer test in order to be able to transport my 16.2hh WB. I would be hiring/borrowing trailers, so weights etc unknown.

The vehicle would be my every day car for commuting (26 mile round trip). 

Currently looking at Kia Sorento but unsure of the differences in spec. Is any one model recommended for towing capacity and overall economy to the others? Budget isn't huge. I understand that I'll have to compromise somewhere. 

Other suggestions for economical and reliable options most welcome.
		
Click to expand...

Recommendations on vehicle types are not my thing but perhaps others may be able to help

There is a link in my signature which may help


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## Blackbeauty007 (4 November 2015)

would need -
1 - BE
2 - 1575
3 - 2130
4 - 2000kg
5 - 2340
6 - 905

With a load of 650kg in (one horse)


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## ROG (4 November 2015)

Blackbeauty007 said:



			would need -
1 - BE
2 - 1575
3 - 2130
4 - 2000kg
5 - 2340
6 - 905

With a load of 650kg in (one horse)
		
Click to expand...

Legal for B+E
905 + 650 = 1555 so well under the 2000 limit


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## Blackbeauty007 (4 November 2015)

Thank you. Would the car be heavy enough to cope with a trailer of that weight? X


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## ROG (4 November 2015)

Blackbeauty007 said:



			Thank you. Would the car be heavy enough to cope with a trailer of that weight? X
		
Click to expand...

the safe towing capacity is 2000 no matter what the weight of the vehicle

there are some vehicles which can safely tow 3500 but their max legal weight is 2700 - it all goes on vehicle design


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## Blackbeauty007 (4 November 2015)

Ok thanks that makes sense now


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## ROG (4 November 2015)

Blackbeauty007 said:



			Ok thanks that makes sense now 

Click to expand...

In your case the car is a minimum of 1575 empty so is going to heavier with you and what not in it with your trailer and its load at 1555 which means you should always have the vehicle weighing heavier than the trailer - its always recommended that be the case for better handling


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## cg91 (9 November 2015)

I need help, I've a 2012 audi a3 sportback, looking at trailers around 750kg for a single horse and I passed my test in 2011. I don't even know how to find out the weight of my car :-/ it's a 1.6


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## ROG (10 November 2015)

cg91 said:



			I need help, I've a 2012 audi a3 sportback, looking at trailers around 750kg for a single horse and I passed my test in 2011. I don't even know how to find out the weight of my car :-/ it's a 1.6
		
Click to expand...

I need the GVW of your vehicle which is can be found in two places - 
The top of the four figures on the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame
or the max permissible mass figure on the V5 keepers document


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## ROG (10 November 2015)

Audi A3 GVW list = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/audi/a3/gross-vehicle-weight/ - which one is your model please ?


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## ROG (10 November 2015)

ROG said:



			Audi A3 GVW list = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/audi/a3/gross-vehicle-weight/ - which one is your model please ?
		
Click to expand...

Looking at that list it seems reasonable for me to have a guess at what the max GVW of your Audi might be so I am going to use a figure of 2000 kg as the GVW for this example .....

GVW 2000
Towing capacity 1500 kg - that is listed on the V5 keepers doc or using the weight plate on the car it is usually the top figure of four deducted from the second figure

You have a 3500 kg max total plated limit on a B licence so 3500 minus 2000 = 1500 which means the max a trailer can be plated at is 1500

Looking at your other posts is seems you have a horse weighing 600 and have been looking at a IW HB401/3 trailer which is probably still plated at its original 1600 and is about 780 empty

2000 + 1600 = 3600 which is 100 more than allowed for B towing so the solution is to down plate the trailer from 1600 to 1500 = easy to do as you simply call IW (the trailer maker) and send them the original 1600 plate along with about £50 - they send you new 1500 plate to fix on the trailer - you need access to a drill and a pop rivet gun 

With a 1500 plate on the trailer and an empty weight of 780 you can load 720 into the trailer so easy enough for a 600 horse

There are quite a few other trailers which will suit your needs but most will need down plating by the makers of the trailer


Does that help you to understand how this works for B towing ?


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## cg91 (10 November 2015)

ROG said:



			Looking at that list it seems reasonable for me to have a guess at what the max GVW of your Audi might be so I am going to use a figure of 2000 kg as the GVW for this example .....

GVW 2000
Towing capacity 1500 kg - that is listed on the V5 keepers doc or using the weight plate on the car it is usually the top figure of four deducted from the second figure

You have a 3500 kg max total plated limit on a B licence so 3500 minus 2000 = 1500 which means the max a trailer can be plated at is 1500

Looking at your other posts is seems you have a horse weighing 600 and have been looking at a IW HB401/3 trailer which is probably still plated at its original 1600 and is about 780 empty

2000 + 1600 = 3600 which is 100 more than allowed for B towing so the solution is to down plate the trailer from 1600 to 1500 = easy to do as you simply call IW (the trailer maker) and send them the original 1600 plate along with about £50 - they send you new 1500 plate to fix on the trailer - you need access to a drill and a pop rivet gun 

With a 1500 plate on the trailer and an empty weight of 780 you can load 720 into the trailer so easy enough for a 600 horse

There are quite a few other trailers which will suit your needs but most will need down plating by the makers of the trailer


Does that help you to understand how this works for B towing ?
		
Click to expand...

Thankyou for that. I never knew you could down plate a trailer. I have gotten my head around it a bit more yes. It's just the fact I want a light weight trailer anyway as I don't fancy paying for a 4x4 so if I can get the weight down ok then great.


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## ROG (10 November 2015)

cg91 said:



			I never knew you could down plate a trailer.
		
Click to expand...

Only one where the manufacturer it still trading

Do you have the GVW for your Audi ?


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## cg91 (10 November 2015)

ROG said:



			I need the GVW of your vehicle which is can be found in two places - 
The top of the four figures on the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame
or the max permissible mass figure on the V5 keepers document
		
Click to expand...

I took a photo of something in the bonnet it's the only thing I could think it would be, rest is in German lol


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## cg91 (10 November 2015)

Can't figure out if I can send photo so it shows:

E1.2001/116.0217
WAUZZZ8P9CA136609
1880KG
3350KG
1- 1035KG
2- 1005KG


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## ROG (10 November 2015)

cg91 said:



			Can't figure out if I can send photo so it shows:

E1.2001/116.0217
WAUZZZ8P9CA136609
1880KG
3350KG
1- 1035KG
2- 1005KG
		
Click to expand...

SUPER HELPFUL = TA

1 = max front axle weight
2 = max rear axle weight

1880 is the GVW
3350 is the GTW

GTW minus GVW = 1470 = max towing capacity (if the towing capacity is stated as 1500 and the full 1500 is used then the vehicle can only be loaded to a max of 1850 so as not to exceed the GTW of 3350)

Max plated trailer weight on a B licence will be 1620 which means you will not have to down plate a HB 401/3 as it is plated at 1600 (1880 + 1600 = 3480 so within the 3500 max)

The max you can put into the trailer if the towing capacity is listed at 1470 is 690 as the trailer is 780 empty (1470 - 780 = 690)


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## cg91 (10 November 2015)

ROG said:



			SUPER HELPFUL = TA

1 = max front axle weight
2 = max rear axle weight

1880 is the GVW
3350 is the GTW

GTW minus GVW = 1470 = max towing capacity (if the towing capacity is stated as 1500 and the full 1500 is used then the vehicle can only be loaded to a max of 1850 so as not to exceed the GTW of 3350)

Max plated trailer weight on a B licence will be 1620 which means you will not have to down plate a HB 401/3 as it is plated at 1600 (1880 + 1600 = 3480 so within the 3500 max)

The max you can put into the trailer if the towing capacity is listed at 1470 is 690 as the trailer is 780 empty (1470 - 780 = 690)
		
Click to expand...

That's really helpful, thanks very much for your help  even looking at the dvla site didn't give me the answers I needed. Thankyou!


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## ROG (10 November 2015)

cg91 said:



			That's really helpful, thanks very much for your help  even looking at the dvla site didn't give me the answers I needed. Thankyou!
		
Click to expand...

DVLA/GOV sites are useless on this issue as they do not explain it well or they miss off important words like MAM !


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## Hayjay (13 November 2015)

I'm thinking of purchasing a Honda CR-V 2.2 I-ctdi EX - 2009 (09 plate) to use for towing an IW 506 (920kg) with mainly a 12.2 pony (approx 250kg?), occasionally a 16hh ISH (600kg?) and the option to tow both together if ever necessary. The tow capacity of the car is showing as 2000kg although I keep hearing/reading that it is not powerful enough to tow much. I can't find out what the total train weight is. Can any advise please. I passed my test in 1987 so licence is suitable. Thanks for reading.


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## ROG (13 November 2015)

Hayjay said:



			I'm thinking of purchasing a Honda CR-V 2.2 I-ctdi EX - 2009 (09 plate) to use for towing an IW 506 (920kg) with mainly a 12.2 pony (approx 250kg?), occasionally a 16hh ISH (600kg?) and the option to tow both together if ever necessary. The tow capacity of the car is showing as 2000kg although I keep hearing/reading that it is not powerful enough to tow much. I can't find out what the total train weight is. Can any advise please. I passed my test in 1987 so licence is suitable. Thanks for reading.
		
Click to expand...

Towing capacity 2000 with 920+250+600=roughly 1800 so 200 under that 2000 capacity

With a fully loaded car up to its GVW limit will mean its all legal on a B+E licence


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## Hayjay (13 November 2015)

ROG said:



			Towing capacity 2000 with 920+250+600=roughly 1800 so 200 under that 2000 capacity

With a fully loaded car up to its GVW limit will mean its all legal on a B+E licence
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ROG. I thought it would be ok. My mechanic said it wouldn't tow much and I've found some posts saying the same on Google searches. I think the chassis was changed after 2004 though, hence the confusion. Where is the best place to confirm its towing capacity? The log book?


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## ROG (13 November 2015)

Hayjay said:



			Thanks ROG. I thought it would be ok. My mechanic said it wouldn't tow much and I've found some posts saying the same on Google searches. I think the chassis was changed after 2004 though, hence the confusion. Where is the best place to confirm its towing capacity? The log book?
		
Click to expand...

The V5 doc is one place and the other is the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame then deduct top of the four figures from the second


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## Hayjay (13 November 2015)

ROG said:



			The V5 doc is one place and the other is the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame then deduct top of the four figures from the second
		
Click to expand...

Great. Thanks so much for your help.


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## peaceandquiet1 (20 November 2015)

ROG can you advise please towing capacity of Ford Mondeo Edge  2l 130 TDCI Estate 2007?

Thank you


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## ROG (20 November 2015)

horsemadmum1 said:



			ROG can you advise please towing capacity of Ford Mondeo Edge  2l 130 TDCI Estate 2007?

Thank you
		
Click to expand...

Do you have the car ?


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## peaceandquiet1 (20 November 2015)

No just looking at it


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## ROG (20 November 2015)

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-figures/ford/mondeo/hatchback-2000/30836/
According to these it has a towing capacity of 1800 kgs 
Is that your model in the link ?
Are you going to be towing with a B or B+E licence ?


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## peaceandquiet1 (20 November 2015)

B and E, not sure if we will even be towing with it, but Sante Fe has just spectacularly failed its MOT and been written off, so need family transport. Feel myself it might be too borderline for my needs but we are looking at a towcar in the spring as don't do much in winter with the ponies so can wait-but live in rural area so need car fast for everything else! it is not that car, it is an estate. i found that page but there was no towing info on the model?


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## ROG (20 November 2015)

horsemadmum1 said:



			i found that page but there was no towing info on the model?
		
Click to expand...

Says Braked Towing Weight	 1800 kg if you scroll down and look on the right


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## peaceandquiet1 (20 November 2015)

Don't think it is the same model? It is an estate-can I assume it will be the same? Two ponies about 700-800kg in total plus Ifor 505 Classic?


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## ROG (20 November 2015)

horsemadmum1 said:



			Don't think it is the same model? It is an estate-can I assume it will be the same? Two ponies about 700-800kg in total plus Ifor 505 Classic?
		
Click to expand...

Likely to be the same as the saloon but you could always ask wherever you are getting it from what the top two weights are on the weight plate then deduct the smaller from the larger to get the towing capacity

505 is about 900 I think so adding 800 = 1700 which an 1800 towing capacity should cope with


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## peaceandquiet1 (20 November 2015)

Thank you ROG, is the weight plate under the bonnet? Thanks for your help!


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## ROG (20 November 2015)

horsemadmum1 said:



			Thank you ROG, is the weight plate under the bonnet? Thanks for your help!
		
Click to expand...

Yes OR in a door frame - those are the two usual places


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## VikkiL (23 November 2015)

Hi ROG

Was wondering if I could run my combination by you? I am pretty sure its legal as used this forum to base it on, however took trailer to be serviced this morning and the man was absolutely adament I (and any other trailer combinations for that matter) were illegal - something to do with train weight? can you put my mind at rest...

Anyways I tow a Cheval Liberte 1003 single with a Ford C max.

C-max according to V5:
Mass in service (kerb weight?)- 1465kg
Max permissable mass- 1995kg
Train weight 3495 kg

Trailer has two plates one it- believe it must have been downplated at some stage. One sates MAM is 1200kg, the other 1400kg. 

Thanks!


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## ROG (23 November 2015)

VikkiL said:



			Hi ROG

Was wondering if I could run my combination by you? I am pretty sure its legal as used this forum to base it on, however took trailer to be serviced this morning and the man was absolutely adament I (and any other trailer combinations for that matter) were illegal - something to do with train weight? can you put my mind at rest...

Anyways I tow a Cheval Liberte 1003 single with a Ford C max.

C-max according to V5:
Mass in service (kerb weight?)- 1465kg
Max permissable mass- 1995kg
Train weight 3495 kg

Trailer has two plates one it- believe it must have been downplated at some stage. One sates MAM is 1200kg, the other 1400kg. 

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

I ASSUME you are towing on a B licence ??????????

plated at 1400 the trailer will be legal as 1995 GVW(MAM) + 1400 MAM = 3395 so under the B towing 3500 limit

If car was loaded to an actual weight of 1995 and the trailer to an actual weight of 1400 then that total of 3395 is still 100 under the GTW of 3495

I know from the figures your car has a max towing capacity of 1500 (3495-1995=1500)

Whoever told you that rubbish where you had it serviced needs to seriously beef up on the rules !


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## ROG (23 November 2015)

As it has TWO weight plates, I would place a call to Cheval with the serial number and check what its current weight is legally

Cheval Liberté (UK) Ltd
 Trewyn Fawr
 Carrog Road
 Corwen
 Denbighshire
 LL21 9RW

Tel: 01490 736 323


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## VikkiL (23 November 2015)

Yes I am on a B.

Thanks for that ROG. I thought that was the case but panicked as he was so sure that towing on a B was a "misconception" on trailer over 750 kg. 

Will give then a call thanks, just assumed because it had two I could chose which plate was 'inforce' depending on circs. But guess it makes sense only 1 can be. Only carry a pont though so either is fine.

Thanks again.



ROG said:



			As it has TWO weight plates, I would place a call to Cheval with the serial number and check what its current weight is legally

Cheval Liberté (UK) Ltd
 Trewyn Fawr
 Carrog Road
 Corwen
 Denbighshire
 LL21 9RW

Tel: 01490 736 323
		
Click to expand...


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## alainax (24 November 2015)

Looking for advice on big trailers, if you would be so kind as to help me out  

I am possibly looking at selling my lorry in favour of an Equi-trek. At the heavy end of the scale there is the star treka, ill post some numbers
3.5t gross
1900kg unladen
600kg horse
300kg pony ( I don't have a pony  but might one day!)
100kg stuff. 
So say 3000kg as an upward guestimate. 


Jeep grand Cherokee 3l. Towing capacity 3.5t. Vehicle weight - 2210kg. 

B+E license. Is this set up with the trailer being heavier than the car unsafe? If so I can look at their less heavy models


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## ROG (25 November 2015)

alainax said:



			Looking for advice on big trailers, if you would be so kind as to help me out  

I am possibly looking at selling my lorry in favour of an Equi-trek. At the heavy end of the scale there is the star treka, ill post some numbers
3.5t gross
1900kg unladen
600kg horse
300kg pony ( I don't have a pony  but might one day!)
100kg stuff. 
So say 3000kg as an upward guestimate. 


Jeep grand Cherokee 3l. Towing capacity 3.5t. Vehicle weight - 2210kg. 

B+E license. Is this set up with the trailer being heavier than the car unsafe? If so I can look at their less heavy models 

Click to expand...

That vehicle has been specifically designed to tow 3500 kg safely even if only the driver is in the vehicle

In most circumstances it is not recommended for the trailer to be heavier than the vehicle but there are exceptions such as this


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## alainax (25 November 2015)

ROG said:



			That vehicle has been specifically designed to tow 3500 kg safely even if only the driver is in the vehicle

In most circumstances it is not recommended for the trailer to be heavier than the vehicle but there are exceptions such as this
		
Click to expand...

Thank you very much


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## brighteyes (29 November 2015)

The down-plating malarkey (again)

If one had done all the towing calculations on one's vehicle (not one of the 3500kg tow capacity 4x4's) and then loaded the car and trailer as per a standard (plus a few items) road trip, and then weighed the outfit and got a print out to prove the legal status, is the down-plating necessary? 

Do spot checks weigh you or just go on the trailer plate and vehicle towing capacity?

I have the full towing capacity on my licence.


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## ROG (29 November 2015)

brighteyes said:



			The down-plating malarkey (again)

If one had done all the towing calculations on one's vehicle (not one of the 3500kg tow capacity 4x4's) and then loaded the car and trailer as per a standard (plus a few items) road trip, and then weighed the outfit and got a print out to prove the legal status, is the down-plating necessary? 

Do spot checks weigh you or just go on the trailer plate and vehicle towing capacity?

I have the full towing capacity on my licence.
		
Click to expand...

On a B+E licence no down plating is necessary

Apart from commercial, the only reason to down plate is for conforming to B licence towing rules

When weighing it the law looks to see if the following have been conformed to - 
The GVW of the vehicle = RTA
The MAM of the trailer = RTA
The GTW of the combination = RTA
The towing capacity of the vehicle = C&U regs
If all those have been complied with then all is legal as long as the driver has the correct licence


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## brighteyes (29 November 2015)

Do they EVER just look at the plated MAM or do they have to weigh you? Is kind of what I meant.


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## ROG (29 November 2015)

brighteyes said:



			Do they EVER just look at the plated MAM or do they have to weigh you? Is kind of what I meant.
		
Click to expand...

They will look at it but to determine if its overloaded they need to weigh it

Simply looking at a plate will not inform them of anything regarding weights unless its being driven under B rules in which case they will add up the plated weights to see if they exceed 3500 kg

Perhaps you can be more specific if you have something else on your mind regarding weights please ?

If you could give an example then that may help ...........


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## brighteyes (29 November 2015)

Well, I'm back to towing, since I sold my lorry. Back in the day I had a no nonsense Daihatsu, the latterly a disastrous Sorento (which I'd have again if the engine could be guaranteed). Was looking at lesser towing ones as have been suggested on here, but looking like back to a Daihatsu, if I can find one. And I can gear myself to a less refined driving experience. It will be specifically for that. 

I was just curious about the actual weights as opposed to the plated one on the trailer. I guess they can't prosecute if actual and licence are in order.


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## ROG (29 November 2015)

brighteyes said:



			I was just curious about the actual weights as opposed to the plated one on the trailer. I guess they can't prosecute if actual and licence are in order.
		
Click to expand...

If actual are within plated/recommended then all is ok legally


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## brighteyes (29 November 2015)

But they would have to weigh you in order to be certain, if the vehicle was a borderline one.


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## ROG (29 November 2015)

brighteyes said:



			But they would have to weigh you in order to be certain, if the vehicle was a borderline one.
		
Click to expand...

yes


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## brighteyes (29 November 2015)

As I thought. Thank you.


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## alexomahony (18 December 2015)

Hi ROG, 

I've been towing for quite a while now on my B license (checked with all relevant parties and it has been legal with my combination). I now, however, have a new horse and plan to take them both together in the future (with a new, bigger car!) which means taking my B+E test. 

I'm trying to save costs as much as possible (to purchase big car!) and hoping you could answer this for me - can I just do my test without tuition? ( I plan to take lessons, but I just don't want to pay a fortune for a 2/3 days course when a few hours will probably suffice) But I'm hoping, to book my test seperatly, and then book 2/3 hours lessons to brush up on my skills and banish my bad habits! 

Thanks! x


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## ROG (18 December 2015)

alexomahony said:



			can I just do my test without tuition? ( I plan to take lessons, but I just don't want to pay a fortune for a 2/3 days course when a few hours will probably suffice) But I'm hoping, to book my test seperatly, and then book 2/3 hours lessons to brush up on my skills and banish my bad habits! 

Thanks! x
		
Click to expand...

You can do it as you wish

You can have no lessons and use your own vehicle and trailer for the test which you can book yourself providing the set up conforms to DVSA standards


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## alexomahony (18 December 2015)

ROG said:



			You can do it as you wish

You can have no lessons and use your own vehicle and trailer for the test which you can book yourself providing the set up conforms to DVSA standards
		
Click to expand...

Glorious news  Thank you ROG x


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## ROG (18 December 2015)

alexomahony said:



			Glorious news  Thank you ROG x
		
Click to expand...

More info in post number 2000 of this thread


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## ROG (25 December 2015)

BUMP for the xmas/new year break for any one who has questions


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## tallyho! (25 December 2015)

Merry Christmas Rog!


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## ROG (26 December 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Merry Christmas Rog!
		
Click to expand...

Thank you


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## ROG (27 December 2015)

Nice to see that everyone is happy with the legalities of their towing set ups


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## popsdosh (10 January 2016)

ROG something was mentioned to me the other day which I wondered if had ever been asked on here?

It was to do with B+E entitlement for driver with grandfather entitlements. I was informed that drivers who may have been disqualified since 1997 wont still hold B+E entitlement on their licence as the licence is issued as a new one if this is the case I wonder if people in this situation are aware they need to take the test for a trailer or are just merrily going along thinking they still have their pre disqualification entitlements. I am only referring to those drivers who never needed to take the test originally!


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## ROG (10 January 2016)

popsdosh said:



			ROG something was mentioned to me the other day which I wondered if had ever been asked on here?

It was to do with B+E entitlement for driver with grandfather entitlements. I was informed that drivers who may have been disqualified since 1997 wont still hold B+E entitlement on their licence as the licence is issued as a new one if this is the case I wonder if people in this situation are aware they need to take the test for a trailer or are just merrily going along thinking they still have their pre disqualification entitlements. I am only referring to those drivers who never needed to take the test originally!
		
Click to expand...

It is my understanding that all previous entitlements are return after disqualification unless a court or medical says otherwise


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## Matt Crisp (11 January 2016)

ROG. Can a Non E holder with full C tow a 500kg braked trailer, max 2500kg laden, unladen on (1) normal carriageways, and (2) a motorway, not for hire or reward? Tow vehicle Land Cruiser Amazon 3200kg. 
Would that situation change if accompanied by a full age related C/E and the car and trailer carried L plates?

Can a non E tow a 500kg /2500kg braked unit laden at 2500kg with Amazon at 3200kg with L plates when accompanied by C/E age related holder on normal carriageways? Can they tow on a motorway also?

TIA Matt


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## ROG (11 January 2016)

Matt Crisp said:



			ROG. Can a Non E holder with full C tow a 500kg braked trailer, max 2500kg laden, unladen on (1) normal carriageways, and (2) a motorway, not for hire or reward? Tow vehicle Land Cruiser Amazon 3200kg. 
Would that situation change if accompanied by a full age related C/E and the car and trailer carried L plates?

Can a non E tow a 500kg /2500kg braked unit laden at 2500kg with Amazon at 3200kg with L plates when accompanied by C/E age related holder on normal carriageways? Can they tow on a motorway also?

TIA Matt
		
Click to expand...

With a B or C licence the max that can be towed is 750 kg max plated MAM behind C and 750kg max plated MAM behind a B with a GVW of 3200kg

On L plates a B+E set up can be supervised on any type of road and a C+E set up the same providing the supervising driver has held that category for at least 3 years and is over age 21


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## js1006 (13 January 2016)

Hi ROG,

I was hoping you could please confirm whether this set up was legal before I go buying a trailer.

1 - B licence 
2 - 1290kg (awd Subaru legacy lx)
3 - 1870kg 
4 - 3470kg
5 - 1400, downplated to 1290kg (cheval liberte single)
6 - 720kg

Horse weighs 540kg, giving me 30kg for a haynet and nothing else in the trailer, but 580kg in the car for me, fuel tack etc.?

Many thanks!


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## ROG (13 January 2016)

js1006 said:



			Hi ROG,

I was hoping you could please confirm whether this set up was legal before I go buying a trailer.

1 - B licence 
2 - 1290kg (awd Subaru legacy lx)
3 - 1870kg 
4 - 3470kg
5 - 1400, downplated to 1290kg (cheval liberte single)
6 - 720kg

Horse weighs 540kg, giving me 30kg for a haynet and nothing else in the trailer, but 580kg in the car for me, fuel tack etc.?

Many thanks!
		
Click to expand...

LEGAL and all your figures are spot on

You can tow a trailer plated at 1630 with a vehicle GVW of 1870


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## js1006 (13 January 2016)

Thanks ROG, very helpful!


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## QueenDee_ (18 January 2016)

Hi ROG. I'm assuming I'd need to take my B+E test to legally drive the following but just thought i'd check!

B license passed after 2013,
Mitshubishi Shogun (Gross weight 3030?)
And the trailer is a Fautras Promax.

If the above is, as I suspect, requiring a B+E license, what changes would have to be made? (i.e. a lighter car?)


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## ROG (18 January 2016)

Queenie_ said:



			Hi ROG. I'm assuming I'd need to take my B+E test to legally drive the following but just thought i'd check!

B license passed after 2013,
Mitshubishi Shogun (Gross weight 3030?)
And the trailer is a Fautras Promax.

If the above is, as I suspect, requiring a B+E license, what changes would have to be made? (i.e. a lighter car?)
		
Click to expand...

Max trailer on a B licence where a vehicle has a GVW of 2750 or more = 750kg plated MAM


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## Shonah (20 January 2016)

Hi

Wondered if you could help me!

I've got a B license 
My car is 1700 unladen
It's gvw is 2350 I think? (It's an evoque but struggled to find weights online for it!)
It can tow 1800 
Trailer would be 2700 I think?
Unladen trailer weight is 1000 ifor hb511
With a 700kg horse 

Thanks for your help


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## ROG (20 January 2016)

Shonah said:



			Hi

Wondered if you could help me!

I've got a B license 
My car is 1700 unladen
It's gvw is 2350 I think? (It's an evoque but struggled to find weights online for it!)
It can tow 1800 
Trailer would be 2700 I think?
Unladen trailer weight is 1000 ifor hb511
With a 700kg horse 

Thanks for your help 

Click to expand...

With a GVW of 2350 the maximum trailer MAM on a B licence is 1150 so 2700 is well over the limit
If you down plated the trailer from 2700 to 1150 then that would only leave 150 for the load and you need 700

GVW can easily be found - 
On a weight plate usually hidden in a door frame or under the bonnet - top figure of the 4 listed
V5 keepers doc - listed as max permissible weight

Solution is to get a towing vehicle with a lower GVW and get a light weight trailer


You can drive your current set up under B+E learner rules - see post number 2000 of this thread


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## alainax (29 January 2016)

What is the difference between the what can be towed on a 2013+ license, and a 1997+ license? They both seem really poorly worded! 

Licences issued from 19 January 2013
From 19 January 2013, drivers passing a category B (car and small vehicle) test can tow:

1. small trailers weighing no more than 750kg *(this seems easy enough, but no MAM, so its actual weight? )*
2. a trailer over 750kg as long as the combined weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg (3.5 tonnes) Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)* (is this the MAM of both car and trailer?)*


Licences held from 1 January 1997
If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can:

1. drive a vehicle up to 3,500kg MAM towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM *(make sense)*
2. tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg*(whats the difference from above?)*


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## ROG (29 January 2016)

alainax said:



			What is the difference between the what can be towed on a 2013+ license, and a 1997+ license? They both seem really poorly worded! 

Licences issued from 19 January 2013
From 19 January 2013, drivers passing a category B (car and small vehicle) test can tow:

1. small trailers weighing no more than 750kg *(this seems easy enough, but no MAM, so its actual weight? )*
2. a trailer over 750kg as long as the combined weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg (3.5 tonnes) Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)* (is this the MAM of both car and trailer?)*


Licences held from 1 January 1997
If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can:

1. drive a vehicle up to 3,500kg MAM towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM *(make sense)*
2. tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg*(whats the difference from above?)*

Click to expand...

The 1997 to 2012 rules for B towing should not be there as they were revoked and changed to the 2013 rules

The only difference which applies to so few drivers is that the max trailer MAM for B+E is unrestricted before 2013 but has a limit of 3500 for post 2013
Trailers with MAMs over 3500 need air brakes or similar which it applies to so few


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## ROG (30 January 2016)

livgrace said:



			Hi there

Im looking to get my first trailer in the next year or so. I will be getting a single trailer probably an Ifor 403, I will also be swapping my car for a 4X4.

I have heard that if your box and car is light enough etc you can stay within the limit? There was lost of things about MAM's and other words i didn't fully understand ha ha! So id love someone to decode this language for me if possible?

Im not saying that i will not take my test but I am just wondering 

My horse weighs about 560kg and i know you must take into account tack, water, people etc to the overall weight.
The gross weight for the Ifor 4013 is 1600kg and unladen it is 767kg.

Taking into account all this, what cars would be suitable to tow and legally stay within the limit? (If this is possible)

Thank you so much!
		
Click to expand...

MAM GVW and MTPLM (for caravans) all mean the same thing = the maximum legal weight something can be when fully loaded

Licences go on these fully loaded weights so if the vehicle, trailer or caravan is empty it makes no difference to the licence needed

For towing on a B licence - 
The GVW of the vehicle added to the trailer MAM must not exceed a total of 3500kg
The actual weight of the empty trailer and its load must not exceed the towing capacity of the vehicle

You have a horse 560 + 780ish for the trailer so that totals 1340 which means the vehicle towing capacity must be at least that

The trailer at the moment is 1600 MAM so you can tow that with a car which has a GVW of 1900

You can contact IW and have their trailer down plated to say 1400 which then allows for a car GVW of 2100

GVW can be found on the keepers V5 doc under max permissible weight or is the top of the four figures on the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame on the vehicle
GVW for most vehicles can also be found on the internet if you know the exact model of vehicle


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## ROG (30 January 2016)

@ livgrace - try looking at the Skoda Octavia 4x4


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## Echo24 (31 January 2016)

Am I right in thinking I would need to do a towing test for the following? Trailer is my YO's so can't downplate:

1. B licence
2. Volvo XC90 unladen weight 2009kg
3. GVW 2750kg
4. Max towing weight: unbraked 750kg, braked 2700kg
5. Ifor Williams H511 2700kg
6. Unladen weight 1000kg

Or alternatively I get a Cheval Liberte single trailer at 1400kg and down plate it which gives me 750kg for pony, water, etc? Thanks.


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## ROG (31 January 2016)

Echo24 said:



			Am I right in thinking I would need to do a towing test for the following? Trailer is my YO's so can't downplate:

1. B licence
2. Volvo XC90 unladen weight 2009kg
3. GVW 2750kg
4. Max towing weight: unbraked 750kg, braked 2700kg
5. Ifor Williams H511 2700kg
6. Unladen weight 1000kg

Or alternatively I get a Cheval Liberte single trailer at 1400kg and down plate it which gives me 750kg for pony, water, etc? Thanks.
		
Click to expand...

Max trailer MAM is 750 on a B licence for a vehicle with a GVW between 2750 and 3500

You could drive it under B+E learner rules - see post number 2000 of this thread


----------



## *MarlonDingle* (31 January 2016)

Hello, 
So after a 400 mile round trip to see a van that was supposed to tow 2500kgs and the v5 only showed it can tow 2000kg I am back to being confused!! would this be legal if i kept the trailer and contents less than 2000kgs or does the trailer need to be down plated? 

1 - I hold a B+E
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle = 1810kgs
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle = 4600kgs
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle = 2000kgs as stated on the v5
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres= 2340kgs
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer = Ifor Williams 905kgs

Thank you ever so much!


----------



## ROG (31 January 2016)

*MarlonDingle* said:



			Hello, 
So after a 400 mile round trip to see a van that was supposed to tow 2500kgs and the v5 only showed it can tow 2000kg I am back to being confused!! would this be legal if i kept the trailer and contents less than 2000kgs or does the trailer need to be down plated? 

1 - I hold a B+E
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle = 1810kgs
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle = 4600kgs
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle = 2000kgs as stated on the v5
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres= 2340kgs
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer = Ifor Williams 905kgs

Thank you ever so much!
		
Click to expand...

You can tow that trailer as long as you do not load more than 1095 into the trailer 
1095 + 905 = 2000

There is no law or rule which states that the max towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to accommodate the plated MAM of a trailer


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## jewel (31 January 2016)

is there as way i can legally tow on a b licence. It would only be a small pony 400 kg max, the vehicle would be a p reg swb pajero. so is there a way to legally tow and what trailer would i be best to be looking at? thanks in advance


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## ROG (31 January 2016)

jewel said:



			is there as way i can legally tow on a b licence. It would only be a small pony 400 kg max, the vehicle would be a p reg swb pajero. so is there a way to legally tow and what trailer would i be best to be looking at? thanks in advance
		
Click to expand...

There could be but firstly I need to know the GVW of the vehicle
What are the top two figures on the vehicle weight plate ? - usually hidden under bonnet or in a door frame


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## ROG (31 January 2016)

jewel said:



			is there as way i can legally tow on a b licence. It would only be a small pony 400 kg max, the vehicle would be a p reg swb pajero. so is there a way to legally tow and what trailer would i be best to be looking at? thanks in advance
		
Click to expand...

To add to my reply above - 

Lets say your vehicle has a GVW of 2200 and you get an IW HB403 with a plated MAM of 1600 but down plate it via contact with IW to 1300 so you now have the B licence max of 3500 which is 2200 + 1300
The HB 403 weighs 800 empty so that leaves 500 for the trailer load (horse water etc)

What often happens is that B licence holders have too high a GVW vehicle which then does not allow enough for a horse trailer


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## jewel (31 January 2016)

thanks for replying will look what the gvw is tomorrow


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## bluetrees (1 February 2016)

Hi

I'm doing this the other way round as we are about to get a new car.....I'm looking for a potential tow vehicle that can tow a Ifor 401 with a gross laden weight of 1600 but I wouldn't be able to down plate it as it is borrowed.  Are there any vehicles out there that you know off the top of your head that would tow this legally on a just a B licence?

Thanks,


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## ROG (1 February 2016)

bluetrees said:



			Hi

I'm doing this the other way round as we are about to get a new car.....I'm looking for a potential tow vehicle that can tow a Ifor 401 with a gross laden weight of 1600 but I wouldn't be able to down plate it as it is borrowed.  Are there any vehicles out there that you know off the top of your head that would tow this legally on a just a B licence?

Thanks, 

Click to expand...

Blimey - you need a car with a GVW no more than 1900kg

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/skoda/octavia/gross-vehicle-weight/ - look at the INFO on the ones 1900 max


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## bluetrees (1 February 2016)

ROG said:



			Blimey - you need a car with a GVW no more than 1900kg

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/skoda/octavia/gross-vehicle-weight/ - look at the INFO on the ones 1900 max
		
Click to expand...

I don't think I'll be able to convince hubby to buy a Skoda unfortunately as that is the one I had found.  Not sure why as they are pretty good cars.  My friend tows with hers and she says it's really good.  He's looking at the Mondeos but they are too heavy.  However, I've been reading through the thread and I see on #2000 you have outlined some of the rules.  I was told it wasn't legal for me to drive supervised on L plates any more, that law was revoked a few years ago but the reply #2000 says this is just for vocational drivers and the C tests and above.    Both my sister and husband are pre 97 licence holders and one of them could sit with me so am I okay with L plates?


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## ROG (1 February 2016)

bluetrees said:



			I don't think I'll be able to convince hubby to buy a Skoda unfortunately as that is the one I had found.  Not sure why as they are pretty good cars.  My friend tows with hers and she says it's really good.  He's looking at the Mondeos but they are too heavy.  However, I've been reading through the thread and I see on #2000 you have outlined some of the rules.  I was told it wasn't legal for me to drive supervised on L plates any more, that law was revoked a few years ago but the reply #2000 says this is just for vocational drivers and the C tests and above.    Both my sister and husband are pre 97 licence holders and one of them could sit with me so am I okay with L plates?
		
Click to expand...

Sister or hubby supervising you is 100% legal under B+E learner rules and neither need to be insured unless they are actually driving


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## bluetrees (1 February 2016)

ROG said:



			Sister or hubby supervising you is 100% legal under B+E learner rules and neither need to be insured unless they are actually driving
		
Click to expand...

Brill, thanks......that makes it a bit easier for us to pick a new car.  Still limited to a car and a single trailer but will be a 
bit easier.


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## ROG (2 February 2016)

bluetrees said:



			Brill, thanks......that makes it a bit easier for us to pick a new car.  Still limited to a car and a single trailer but will be a 
bit easier.



Click to expand...

You are not limited to single trailer if under B+E rules


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## bluetrees (2 February 2016)

ROG said:



			You are not limited to single trailer if under B+E rules
		
Click to expand...

No, but I don't think we will be getting a car that will tow a double due to the economies of running it daily/cost to buy initially. Therefore, it will probably be a chunky estate which will tow a single happily but still not enough oomph to pull a double.  And seeing as hiring/borrowing for this year at least, not able to re plate to suit.


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## ROG (2 February 2016)

bluetrees said:



			No, but I don't think we will be getting a car that will tow a double due to the economies of running it daily/cost to buy initially. Therefore, it will probably be a chunky estate which will tow a single happily but still not enough oomph to pull a double.  And seeing as hiring/borrowing for this year at least, not able to re plate to suit.
		
Click to expand...

Doubles are often cheaper than singles due to the fact that many need singles for B towing which is why the fetch a premium price these days

Take two trailers - HB505 double and HB 403 single - the weight difference is only about 125kg


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## bluetrees (2 February 2016)

ROG said:



			Doubles are often cheaper than singles due to the fact that many need singles for B towing which is why the fetch a premium price these days

Take two trailers - HB505 double and HB 403 single - the weight difference is only about 125kg
		
Click to expand...

I know......but I'm pretty sure my local hire place only has 511's so we won't have a car that can tow one of those.  I will ring and ask them though in case they do have a 505.   We will probably only have the car for a year anyway then upgrade again to something that can tow anything.   (I'm sadly selling my landrover defender   but right now it's not the right car for us.)


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## bluetrees (2 February 2016)

???? the towing website I've just been on says that the Max Gross Weight of a 505 is 2340kg and the Max Gross Weight of a 401 is 1600kg so that's more than 125kg?  Are you saying that if I bought a 505 and downplated it, I could get it as low as 1725kg?


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## ROG (2 February 2016)

bluetrees said:



			???? the towing website I've just been on says that the Max Gross Weight of a 505 is 2340kg and the Max Gross Weight of a 401 is 1600kg so that's more than 125kg?  Are you saying that if I bought a 505 and downplated it, I could get it as low as 1725kg?
		
Click to expand...

You are referring the the plated MAM weight and I was referring the empty weight as you mentioned the difference to the car 'grunt' when towing

B+E rules mean you can generally put any horse trailer behind the car and as long as the towing capacity or the MAM of the trailer is not exceeded it will be legal

Thought ..... have you been listening to some numpties where they say that the MAM cannot be more than the towing capacity ?


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## bluetrees (2 February 2016)

ROG said:



			You are referring the the plated MAM weight and I was referring the empty weight as you mentioned the difference to the car 'grunt' when towing

B+E rules mean you can generally put any horse trailer behind the car and as long as the towing capacity or the MAM of the trailer is not exceeded it will be legal

Thought ..... have you been listening to some numpties where they say that the MAM cannot be more than the towing capacity ?
		
Click to expand...

So can the towing capacity be less than the MAM?  One of the cars we are looking at is the ssangyong Kyron which has a tow capacity of 2100 if not 4x4 version or 2300 if a 4x4 version.    (Not sure if we will get a 4x4 version or not - depends what's out there) So all I have done is looked at the gross laden weight of Ifor 505 which is 2340 and assumed can't tow this as it's above either of the cars tow capacity.  The Gross laden weight of the 401/403 is 1600kg so well within the 2100/2300?


----------



## bluetrees (2 February 2016)

I've found out a bit more about the Kyron....it's unladen weight is 1821 and it's gross weight is 2530.  Can you show me the sums I need to work out if it can tow a 505 or the 401?

Thanks


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## ROG (2 February 2016)

bluetrees said:



			So can the towing capacity be less than the MAM?  One of the cars we are looking at is the ssangyong Kyron which has a tow capacity of 2100 if not 4x4 version or 2300 if a 4x4 version.    (Not sure if we will get a 4x4 version or not - depends what's out there) So all I have done is looked at the gross laden weight of Ifor 505 which is 2340 and assumed can't tow this as it's above either of the cars tow capacity.  The Gross laden weight of the 401/403 is 1600kg so well within the 2100/2300?
		
Click to expand...

There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of the vehicle must be able to cope with the plated MAM of a trailer or vice versa but there are plenty of internet myths about ......

Both of these examples are legal

Vehicle towing capacity 2000 with 3500 MAM trailer where the trailer weighs 1000 empty and is loaded with 1000

Vehicle towing capacity 2000 with 1500 MAM trailer where the trailer weighs 1000 empty and is loaded with 500


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## ROG (2 February 2016)

bluetrees said:



			I've found out a bit more about the Kyron....it's unladen weight is 1821 and it's gross weight is 2530.  Can you show me the sums I need to work out if it can tow a 505 or the 401?

Thanks 

Click to expand...

What is either the GTW or the max towing weight capacity ?

What licence is this to be under - B or B+E ?


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## bluetrees (2 February 2016)

Can't find its GTW but it's max tow capacity is 2300.   Most likely B & E but can it be done with just a B? Is it also a myth that if I got pulled over with a ifor 505 and only 1 horse and was in my tow limits, the police automatically go on the max laden weight of the trailer ( ie fully laden with 2 horses and stuff) because they just go off the plate on the trailer?


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## ROG (2 February 2016)

bluetrees said:



			Can't find its GTW but it's max tow capacity is 2300.   Most likely B & E but can it be done with just a B? Is it also a myth that if I got pulled over with a ifor 505 and only 1 horse and was in my tow limits, the police automatically go on the max laden weight of the trailer ( ie fully laden with 2 horses and stuff) because they just go off the plate on the trailer?
		
Click to expand...

B licence = 2530GVW + 970MAM trailer

B+E licence = 2530GVW + 2300 tow capacity means any trailer not more than 3500MAM can be towed
Example = trailer MAM 3500 but 1000 empty = max trailer load of 1300 (1000 + 1300 = 2300)


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## bluetrees (2 February 2016)

ROG said:



			B licence = 2530GVW + 970MAM trailer

B+E licence = 2530GVW + 2300 tow capacity means any trailer not more than 3500MAM can be towed
Example = trailer MAM 3500 but 1000 empty = max trailer load of 1300 (1000 + 1300 = 2300)
		
Click to expand...

is the MAM the same as the Gross Laden Weight because when I look at the website for the Ifor Williams 511 it doesn't give a MAM but the unladen and laden weight?

Therefore if it is one and the same.....1000kg for unladen trailer, 550kg for horse leaving 750 for stuff = 2300.    (B&E licence driver or a B driver supervised on L plates)

Right.....so the reason I thought this car couldn't pull a 511 at all is because I have been told regardless of if I am only towing 1 horse which as above is within the weight limits, the police go off the gross laden weight on the plate therefore this would take me over the tow capacity of the car.  If this is another urban myth, then pretty much any of the cars we have been looking at and a 511 will be fine as long as I'm only taking one horse which would be the case.

Thanks


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## ROG (2 February 2016)

bluetrees said:



			is the MAM the same as the Gross Laden Weight because when I look at the website for the Ifor Williams 511 it doesn't give a MAM but the unladen and laden weight?

Therefore if it is one and the same.....1000kg for unladen trailer, 550kg for horse leaving 750 for stuff = 2300.    (B&E licence driver or a B driver supervised on L plates)

Right.....so the reason I thought this car couldn't pull a 511 at all is because I have been told regardless of if I am only towing 1 horse which as above is within the weight limits, the police go off the gross laden weight on the plate therefore this would take me over the tow capacity of the car.  If this is another urban myth, then pretty much any of the cars we have been looking at and a 511 will be fine as long as I'm only taking one horse which would be the case.

Thanks 

Click to expand...

DEFFO A MYTH  - one of the biggest ones on the internet

As all weight laws are the same across the categories then if it was true then LGVs towing trailers of any kind would need to up and down plate them many times each week !!!

You have the 1000 + 550 + 750 correct and have assumed correctly that IW laden weight is the MAM


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## ROG (2 February 2016)

bluetrees said:



			Right.....so the reason I thought this car couldn't pull a 511 at all is because I have been told regardless of if I am only towing 1 horse which as above is within the weight limits, the police go off the gross laden weight on the plate therefore this would take me over the tow capacity of the car.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but I cannot resist doing this on the so called law of POTENTIAL ......

Driver - officer why have you stopped me cos I was doing 30 in this 30 limit ?
Officer - do you do 70 on the motorway ?
Driver - yes when the limit and condition allow me to
Officer - then I am booking you for the potential to do at least 70 in this 30 limit
Driver - what !!
Officer - open your boot ...... ooh what is this ? a gun case with a rifle in it ?
Driver - yes I am a certified gun licence holder and have just come from the shooting club up the road
Officer - right then .... I am now booking you for a potential murder you might commit using a firearm

I could not resist ............... potentially !


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## bluetrees (2 February 2016)

ROG said:



			DEFFO A MYTH  - one of the biggest ones on the internet

As all weight laws are the same across the categories then if it was true then LGVs towing trailers of any kind would need to up and down plate them many times each week !!!

You have the 1000 + 550 + 750 correct and have assumed correctly that IW laden weight is the MAM
		
Click to expand...

Yay, thanks ROG, you have been very helpful    It was much easier working things out with the landrover - it towed anything!!


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## bluetrees (2 February 2016)

ROG said:



			Sorry but I cannot resist doing this on the so called law of POTENTIAL ......

Driver - officer why have you stopped me cos I was doing 30 in this 30 limit ?
Officer - do you do 70 on the motorway ?
Driver - yes when the limit and condition allow me to
Officer - then I am booking you for the potential to do at least 70 in this 30 limit
Driver - what !!
Officer - open your boot ...... ooh what is this ? a gun case with a rifle in it ?
Driver - yes I am a certified gun licence holder and have just come from the shooting club up the road
Officer - right then .... I am now booking you for a potential murder you might commit using a firearm

I could not resist ............... potentially !
		
Click to expand...

When you put it like that!!  LOL


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## cheekywelshie (12 February 2016)

Hi Rog
In sure you've explained it on here somewhere but can you explain kerbweight?? The dusters kerbweight is really low about 1230 ish so how does that affect things? I can't find one experience of anyone who tows a horse using this car so not looking good


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## ROG (12 February 2016)

cheekywelshie said:



			Hi Rog
In sure you've explained it on here somewhere but can you explain kerbweight?? The dusters kerbweight is really low about 1230 ish so how does that affect things? I can't find one experience of anyone who tows a horse using this car so not looking good 

Click to expand...

Kerb/empty weight of vehicle makes no difference to anything

What can matter is the actual weight of the vehicle and trailer when towing because it is recommended that the vehicle weigh more than the trailer in most cases but there are vehicles designed to tow more than their weight safely

Manufacturers work out what is safe to tow for their vehicles


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## Rufus100 (20 February 2016)

Hi ROG, thanks in advance!

1. B (have lessons and test booked... good to know if test needed but plan lessons anyway!)
2. 1653kg
3. 
4. 2000kg
5. 2300kg
6. 860kg

Bateson Deauville and Honda Crv 2.2 diesel.
Horse is 630kg.

Thanks


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## ROG (21 February 2016)

Rufus100 said:



			Hi ROG, thanks in advance!

1. B (have lessons and test booked... good to know if test needed but plan lessons anyway!)
2. 1653kg
3. 
4. 2000kg
5. 2300kg
6. 860kg

Bateson Deauville and Honda Crv 2.2 diesel.
Horse is 630kg.

Thanks 

Click to expand...

Number 3 should be around 2200 GVW so the total MAM about 4500 which is well over the B tow limit of 3500

Under B+E rules it is ok with a max trailer load of 1140


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## fiestiemaestie (21 February 2016)

Hi

B+E license.

2004 Audi A4 quattro 2.5

For Williams 506 trailer

500kg Tb


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## ROG (22 February 2016)

fiestiemaestie said:



			Hi

B+E license.

2004 Audi A4 quattro 2.5

For Williams 506 trailer

500kg Tb
		
Click to expand...

What is the towing capacity of your Audi ? - see max towing weight on the V5 doc


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## fiestiemaestie (22 February 2016)

It says 1800kg


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## ROG (22 February 2016)

fiestiemaestie said:



			1800kg towing capacity
B+E licence 
2004 Audi A4 quattro 2.5
506 trailer = 920 empty
500kg horse
		
Click to expand...

920 + 500 = 1420 so well within the 1800 towing limit


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## Rufus100 (22 February 2016)

Thank you for your help ROG, greatly appreciated


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## SuperCat007 (22 February 2016)

Hello, thinking of buying a towing vehicle and trailer. The ones I like the look of are: Passat estate and Bateson Deauville
1. B
2. ~1430 kg
3. 2060 kg (ish, this is for the brand new ones which are bigger than the older style I was looking at)
4. 2000 kg
5. (I think) 1440
6. 860 kg


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## ROG (22 February 2016)

SuperCat007 said:



			Hello, I'm looking to buy a towing vehicle. I'm driving on a B licence and may well do the B+E/C test in due course, but not for now. So the car needs to be lightish so estate/SUV and so does the trailer. I have 1 450ish kg 15 hh pony to tow and he's the only person I'd ever take.

Budget for the trailer AND car would be ~£10,000; I'm thinking around £6,000-8,000 for the car and the rest for the trailer. 

The best option I've come across so far is the Passat estate 2.0L TDI (GVW 2060, max towing capacity 2000, . The car will also be my everyday car so needs to be fairly economical and nice to drive day to day.

The trailer I like to look of at the moment is the Bateson Deauville: Gross weight 2300, unladen 860, capacity 1440. 

Any advice or opinions on cars and/or trailers would be greatly appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

With a GVW of 2060 the max plated MAM the trailer can be is 1440 so 2300 is way too high

SOLUTION - contact Bateson and get the 2300 down plated to 1400 which will then leave 540 for the horse/trailer load so plenty for the 450 pony


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## SuperCat007 (22 February 2016)

ROG said:



			With a GVW of 2060 the max plated MAM the trailer can be is 1440 so 2300 is way too high

SOLUTION - contact Bateson and get the 2300 down plated to 1400 which will then leave 540 for the horse/trailer load so plenty for the 450 pony
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, that's really helpful. So I need to find a lighter car ideally as well as a lighter trailer.

What are the consequences of down-plating a trailer? Does it just affect the amount of weight you can put on it? Or does it have larger, legal consequences if you're pulled over and weighed etc?


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## ROG (22 February 2016)

SuperCat007 said:



			Thanks, that's really helpful. So I need to find a lighter car ideally as well as a lighter trailer.

What are the consequences of down-plating a trailer? Does it just affect the amount of weight you can put on it? Or does it have larger, legal consequences if you're pulled over and weighed etc?
		
Click to expand...

You do not need a lighter car

Down plating simply reduces its legal max top weight so reducing the max amount it can legally carry but the empty weight remains constant

Trailer remains empty at 800
Trailer plated at 2000 can carry 1200 (2000-800=1200)
Trailer down plated from 2000 to 1400 can carry 600 (1400-800=600)

Down plating can only be done by trailer manufacturer

Bateson charge about a tenner - you call then then remove and send current plate with fee - they send and you fit new plate


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## SuperCat007 (22 February 2016)

ROG said:



			You do not need a lighter car

Down plating simply reduces its legal max top weight so reducing the max amount it can legally carry but the empty weight remains constant

Trailer remains empty at 800
Trailer plated at 2000 can carry 1200 (2000-800=1200)
Trailer down plated from 2000 to 1400 can carry 600 (1400-800=600)

Down plating can only be done by trailer manufacturer

Bateson charge about a tenner - you call then then remove and send current plate with fee - they send and you fit new plate
		
Click to expand...

Thank you. It's a bit of a minefield for a complete novice! That's hugely helpful. I'd probably buy direct from them and they mention doing it before you buy the trailer. Ideally if I can find a lighter car that'd help though, but it'd be nice to have the additional towing capacity. I don't want my first towing experience to be in a car which can only just tow the weight.


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## ellis9905 (23 February 2016)

Hi - I have a question as I'm not sure I have my head round this right! 
I am ok towing as I have b+e however my husband only has b on his license ... The majority of the time it's me who towed but just occasionally it would be helpful if he could take daughter and pony out.

So I was thinking about getting my trailer down plated... 

We tow with a 54plate Kia sorrento and tow a Bateson deauville trailer..

So is this right- 
Car gvw 2056+ down plated trailer 1400kg= 3456kg therefore making it ok to tow on a b licence?? 

My other questions are- is 1400kg the weight that Bateson will downplate it too??
Once downplated is it possible to reverse it back and 'up' plate it back to the origional mam?  

Many thanks for any advice !!


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## ROG (23 February 2016)

ellis9905 said:



			Hi - I have a question as I'm not sure I have my head round this right! 
I am ok towing as I have b+e however my husband only has b on his license ... The majority of the time it's me who towed but just occasionally it would be helpful if he could take daughter and pony out.

So I was thinking about getting my trailer down plated... 

We tow with a 54plate Kia sorrento and tow a Bateson deauville trailer..

So is this right- 
Car gvw 2056+ down plated trailer 1400kg= 3456kg therefore making it ok to tow on a b licence?? 

My other questions are- is 1400kg the weight that Bateson will downplate it too??
Once downplated is it possible to reverse it back and 'up' plate it back to the origional mam?  

Many thanks for any advice !!
		
Click to expand...

A trailer can be up-plated after it has been down-plated

That trailer down plated to 1400 will leave 540 for the max load into the trailer (1400-860=540)

Hubby can drive a B+E set up under L plate rules


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## ellis9905 (23 February 2016)

Can I just double check so I'm crystal clear can hubby drive that set up on a b licence? ( as he would be towing when I'm unable to sit with him on L plates) 

Car 2056 + downplated trailer 1400kg

Many thanks


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## ROG (23 February 2016)

ellis9905 said:



			Can I just double check so I'm crystal clear can hubby drive that set up on a b licence? ( as he would be towing when I'm unable to sit with him on L plates) 

Car 2056 + downplated trailer 1400kg

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

You or another B+E licence holder would need to be next to him with B+E set up such as the one you have now but when down plated to 1400 he can be on hos own


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## ellis9905 (23 February 2016)

Thanks rog... I'm off to call Bateson as that would take a little pressure of me to have a back up driver


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## ROG (24 February 2016)

mrsbt said:



			So I think I have got my head around my towing options but just want to check and make sure 

My car:
2011 Kia Sportage AWD Diesel 2L,
GVW is 2250kg (taken from Kia website, I would need to check my car is the same as the current specifications first)
max trailer load braked is 2200kg. 
Has a detachable tow bar.

I currently have a B licence and my sister has B+E as passed her test pre 1997.
Horse we want to tow is a 15hh Irish cob approx 400-500kg (am assuming 500kg as worst case until we get a more accurate idea).

I believe I could tow on my current licence a small trailer such as a Bateson derby. Trailer load would not be able to exceed 1250kg (3500kg less GVW 2250kg). If horse weighs 500kg this leaves 750kg for trailer unladen (Bateson Derby 675kg unladen). I would need to have the trailer down plated for this.
Or
I could tow as a B+E learner with my sister supervising and would be able to tow a trailer up to a maximum weight of 2200kg per my car spec.
An HB403 single horse trailer (767kg unladen) or an HB506 (920kg unladen). This would mean a trailer weight of either 1267kg for the HB403 or 1420kg for the HB506. Both of these options put me over the 3500kg limit hence the need for L plates but also within the max trailer load for my car.
We would only ever be transporting this one horse.

My questions:
Is my understanding above correct?
Can my sister supervise me even though she hasn&#8217;t passed a test but has held her licence for many years and has towed herself?
If towing as a B+E learner does the trailer have to be downplated? I am presuming not. We would need to hire a trailer rather than buy one at the moment so want to be sure.
Does anyone else tow with a detachable tow bar, are they safe for horse trailers? I expect they should be otherwise wouldn&#8217;t be for sale on the market.
		
Click to expand...

Almost got it correct - on a B licence the trailer cannot be plated at more than 1250 if the vehicle has a GVW of 2250
Bateson Derby weighing 675 empty and down plated from 1700 to 1250 would leave a max trailer load of 575
IW HB401/3 weighing 780 empty and down plated from 1600 to 1250 would leave a max trailer load of 470

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## mrsbt (24 February 2016)

Thanks so much


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## SuperCat007 (27 February 2016)

Hi ROG, I'm confused again...!

I have two potential set ups and one further question at the end...

VW Passat at about 2000 GVW with max braked capacity 2000 kg
Ifor HB505 at 2340 (unladen 905) 
Am I right in saying that to tow a 450-500 kg horse on a B licence the trailer would need to be down-plated to about 1400 to give me about 495 kg of horse space and a maximum load of 3400? Thus being under the 3500 kg limit?

Second set up: Ford Kuga at about 2200 GVW and max braked 2100 kg
Ifor HB505 at 2340 (unladen 905)
Similar calculation, but the trailer would need to be down-plated to about 12/1300 to make it work?

Further question: if I were towing with the intention of taking my B+E test i.e. as a B+E learner with supervision from someone who passed pre-1997 the only thing I would need to worry about is down-plating the trailer in both instances so that it conforms with the max towing capacity of each car? But then I don't have to worry about the whole lot being under 3500 kg because I'm a B+E learner who can tow >3500 kg anyway? IS that right??


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## ROG (27 February 2016)

SuperCat007 said:



			Hi ROG, I'm confused again...!

I have two potential set ups and one further question at the end...

VW Passat at about 2000 GVW with max braked capacity 2000 kg
Ifor HB505 at 2340 (unladen 905) 
Am I right in saying that to tow a 450-500 kg horse on a B licence the trailer would need to be down-plated to about 1400 to give me about 495 kg of horse space and a maximum load of 3400? Thus being under the 3500 kg limit?

Second set up: Ford Kuga at about 2200 GVW and max braked 2100 kg
Ifor HB505 at 2340 (unladen 905)
Similar calculation, but the trailer would need to be down-plated to about 12/1300 to make it work?

Further question: if I were towing with the intention of taking my B+E test i.e. as a B+E learner with supervision from someone who passed pre-1997 the only thing I would need to worry about is down-plating the trailer in both instances so that it conforms with the max towing capacity of each car? But then I don't have to worry about the whole lot being under 3500 kg because I'm a B+E learner who can tow >3500 kg anyway? IS that right??
		
Click to expand...

PASSAT = correct

KUGA = correct but at 1300 it only leaves 395 for the trailer load so not an option for a 400+ horse

The plated MAM of the trailer NEVER has to conform to the vehicle towing capacity - you simply use the lower of the two figures when towing as the max actual weight = plenty of internet myths on that !

You can tow any B+E set up under B+E L plate rules  + pre 1997 B+E holder is legal to supervise and does not need to be insured unless they are actually driving it


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## SuperCat007 (27 February 2016)

Thanks so much for your swift reply again.

I see, but if I were filling the trailer up, I would have to make sure the max weight of the trailer and the weight of 2 horses (for example) didn't exceed the max towing capacity of the car? So I could tow any trailer if I had my B+E licence and not worry about down-plating, but just ensure that the trailer and it's load never exceeded the amount the car is able to tow safely?


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## ROG (27 February 2016)

SuperCat007 said:



			Thanks so much for your swift reply again.

I see, but if I were filling the trailer up, I would have to make sure the max weight of the trailer and the weight of 2 horses (for example) didn't exceed the max towing capacity of the car? So I could tow any trailer if I had my B+E licence and not worry about down-plating, but just ensure that the trailer and it's load never exceeded the amount the car is able to tow safely?
		
Click to expand...

2 EXAMPLES using a vehicle with a towing capacity of 2000kg

1 - trailer MAM 2500 and 1000 empty = max trailer load of 1000 (towing capacity of 2000 is lower than trailer MAM 2500)
2 - trailer MAM 1500 and 1000 empty = max trailer load of 500 (trailer MAM 1500 is lower than towing capacity 2000)


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## SuperCat007 (28 February 2016)

Thanks, so I do only need to worry about not towing over the max capacity of the car and/or trailer if I were B+E. It'll delay my transport plans a little, but I think it'll make life a lot easier and a lot less complicated just in case we ever did get stopped for a weight check etc.


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## ROG (28 February 2016)

SuperCat007 said:



			Thanks, so I do only need to worry about not towing over the max capacity of the car and/or trailer if I were B+E.
		
Click to expand...

YUP - its simple with B+E - do not go over the towing capacity or the trailer plated MAM

You could always down plate a trailer for B towing then up plate it again when B+E gained but with the passat and the 505 that might sail close to the wind weight wise with a horse about 500


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## Tosca123 (2 March 2016)

Hi, can i have some advise please. Im debating whether to keep my wagon or change my car and buy a trailer. My wagon needs a little spending on it (don't they always) and I'm not sure i really want to! But i want to be as safe as i can be towing. A 4x4 is out of the question as the car needs to be my everyday car too and i do a fair amount of miles each year. 
Im looking at either the larger Ifor or bateson. The bateson is lighter but i need to research this before i buy.
When towing with an estate car what is more important, engine torque and 4 wheel drive or MKW?
The Audi A6 Allroad is 4 wheel drive GVW 2510, MKW 1880, BHP 240, Torque 500, MTW 2100. The BMW 5 series GT has very good reviews with caravans, rear wheel drive, the GVW 2545, MKW 1915, BHP 184, Torque 380nm, MTW 2100. Merc Eclass 3.0 GVW 2520, MKW 1945, BHP 265, torque 620, MTW 2100. 
Im not sure of my horses exact weight but he is 17h and i reckon he must be 700kg ( will double check this) so with the ifor i will be towing 1700kg with the bateson i would be towing 1600kg. I will only be towing one horse. With the merc towing the bateson I'm just over the 85% towing rule but over with the ifor and the BMW 5 series GT i will be over the 85% rule with the ifor by nearly 100kg. I will never be towing on grass, mainly motorways. Any advise greatly received to whether i should just scrap the idea and spend the money on my wagon or think about changing my car. Thanks.


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## ROG (2 March 2016)

Tosca123 said:



			Hi, can i have some advise please. Im debating whether to keep my wagon or change my car and buy a trailer. My wagon needs a little spending on it (don't they always) and I'm not sure i really want to! But i want to be as safe as i can be towing. A 4x4 is out of the question as the car needs to be my everyday car too and i do a fair amount of miles each year. 
Im looking at either the larger Ifor or bateson. The bateson is lighter but i need to research this before i buy.
When towing with an estate car what is more important, engine torque and 4 wheel drive or MKW?
The Audi A6 Allroad is 4 wheel drive GVW 2510, MKW 1880, BHP 240, Torque 500, MTW 2100. The BMW 5 series GT has very good reviews with caravans, rear wheel drive, the GVW 2545, MKW 1915, BHP 184, Torque 380nm, MTW 2100. Merc Eclass 3.0 GVW 2520, MKW 1945, BHP 265, torque 620, MTW 2100. 
Im not sure of my horses exact weight but he is 17h and i reckon he must be 700kg ( will double check this) so with the ifor i will be towing 1700kg with the bateson i would be towing 1600kg. I will only be towing one horse. With the merc towing the bateson I'm just over the 85% towing rule but over with the ifor and the BMW 5 series GT i will be over the 85% rule with the ifor by nearly 100kg. I will never be towing on grass, mainly motorways. Any advise greatly received to whether i should just scrap the idea and spend the money on my wagon or think about changing my car. Thanks.
		
Click to expand...

The 85% towing advice is for caravans only

I cannot help on the rest - my knowledge is limited to giving advice on the laws and rules on towing such as towing on a B licence etc


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## Tosca123 (2 March 2016)

Thank you for the quick reply, so as long as I'm within a safe MTW i should be ok towing with the above vehicles? Im legally allowed to tow as i got my licences pre 1997.


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## ROG (2 March 2016)

Tosca123 said:



			Thank you for the quick reply, so as long as I'm within a safe MTW i should be ok towing with the above vehicles? Im legally allowed to tow as i got my licences pre 1997.
		
Click to expand...

With B+E as you have simply follow these rules - Do not go over the ....
GVW of the vehicle 
Towing capacity of the vehicle
MAM of the trailer
Doing those will also keep you within the GTW


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## Tosca123 (2 March 2016)

Thank you ROG, this has helped a lot


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## Pixie88 (6 March 2016)

Hi Rog,

I have a 401h mare and foal trailer. I will be getting it down plated so I can legally tow it, but I am struggling to decide on a car to tow it. Do you know any from this that will let me use the combo? I can't seem to find the gross weight of the 07 plate kia sportage, do you know it? I have also considered the Nissan x trail (although it feels huge) would either of them be legal? 

I know i can use a freelander up to 05 plate. I am just wary of all the horror stories. Also I have been told the kerb weihts has to match the laden weight of the trailer but it is the gross that we use for total car + traile. Can you re  confirm this? 

I had it all set in my head as I was getting a freelander and knew my weights but I am doubting myself now I am looking at others.

Edit: I have a B license 

Thanks!


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## ROG (6 March 2016)

Pixie88 said:



			Hi Rog,

I have a 401h mare and foal trailer. I will be getting it down plated so I can legally tow it, but I am struggling to decide on a car to tow it. Do you know any from this that will let me use the combo? I can't seem to find the gross weight of the 07 plate kia sportage, do you know it? I have also considered the Nissan x trail (although it feels huge) would either of them be legal? 

I know i can use a freelander up to 05 plate. I am just wary of all the horror stories. Also I have been told the kerb weihts has to match the laden weight of the trailer but it is the gross that we use for total car + traile. Can you re  confirm this? 

I had it all set in my head as I was getting a freelander and knew my weights but I am doubting myself now I am looking at others.

Edit: I have a B license 

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

Kerb weight rule was revoked on 19/01/2013

KIA GVW = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/kia/sportage/gross-vehicle-weight/ 

NISSAN XTRAIL GVW = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/business-car-leasing/nissan/x-trail/gross-vehicle-weight/

Select your exact model for the GVW from those links then

PS - cannot find a 401h mare + foal trailer - who makes that ?


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## Pixie88 (6 March 2016)

Sorry hb 401 that was a typo. It's the ifor one. 
Ah, fantastic. So I could also get a suzuki vitara. You have just made my day! 

I will check the make and model. I couldn't find that part of the page when I tried it was just showing the 2016 models.


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## ROG (6 March 2016)

Pixie88 said:



			Sorry hb 401 that was a typo. It's the ifor one. 
Ah, fantastic. So I could also get a suzuki vitara. You have just made my day! 

I will check the make and model. I couldn't find that part of the page when I tried it was just showing the 2016 models.
		
Click to expand...

HB401 is a single horse trailer and are usually plated at 1600 MAM being just under 800 empty so I need to know the weight you need to put into the trailer ?

Once I have that weight we can work backwards to find the max GVW for a vehicle


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## Pixie88 (6 March 2016)

My boy is about 550kg.


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## ROG (6 March 2016)

Pixie88 said:



			My boy is about 550kg.
		
Click to expand...

OK so we have just under 800 + 550 + say 50+ for bits and bobs = 1400

Down plate trailer from 1600 to 1400 via contact with IW leaves a max GVW of 2100 for the vehicle


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## Pixie88 (6 March 2016)

Fab. That is what I had worked out, but I had got to the point my mind was like mush. Thank you. Xx


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## ROG (6 March 2016)

Pixie88 said:



			Fab. That is what I had worked out, but I had got to the point my mind was like mush. Thank you. Xx
		
Click to expand...

Have a look at the Skoda Octavia 4x4 with a GVW of 1998 = IDEA ?


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## SuperCat007 (7 March 2016)

Hi, another question from me... I had my first towing lesson and the instructor said that the MAM of the trailer CANNOT exceed the towing capacity of the car, irrespective of the load you're carrying (since the 2013 law changes). Meaning (due to the type of car I intend to get) I still have to down-plate. However, he referenced some flow charts and guidelines which I can't find anywhere. I've done numerous Google searches and came up with nothing.

Apparently, due to the utter confusion over towing laws, if the police pull you over they'll check the plate on the trailer, the MTC of the car and if the trailer exceeds this they'll try to fine you, irrespective of the unladen weight or what you're towing in the trailer. (This could be area specific, I don't know, but apparently VOSA have given police the authority to do this, even though it doesn't seem to conform with the actual law about towing...). Any advice, links to sites, etc etc anyone?


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## ROG (7 March 2016)

SuperCat007 said:



			Hi, another question from me... I had my first towing lesson and the instructor said that the MAM of the trailer CANNOT exceed the towing capacity of the car, irrespective of the load you're carrying (since the 2013 law changes). Meaning (due to the type of car I intend to get) I still have to down-plate. However, he referenced some flow charts and guidelines which I can't find anywhere. I've done numerous Google searches and came up with nothing.

Apparently, due to the utter confusion over towing laws, if the police pull you over they'll check the plate on the trailer, the MTC of the car and if the trailer exceeds this they'll try to fine you, irrespective of the unladen weight or what you're towing in the trailer. (This could be area specific, I don't know, but apparently VOSA have given police the authority to do this, even though it doesn't seem to conform with the actual law about towing...). Any advice, links to sites, etc etc anyone?
		
Click to expand...

TOTAL RUBBISH

If anyone says that to you ask them to prove it by quoting what law under the RTA that comes ...... they will not be able to because there is no such laws

I would really like you to post a link to your instructors site please

This is 100% legal - car towing capacity 2000 towing a trailer plated at 3500 being 1000 empty and loaded with 1000
If that was illegal then as the weight laws refer to all vehicles even LGVs then LGV trailers would need up and down plating many times a week!

Laws on towing are simple - do not exceed ....
GVW of vehicle
MAM of trailer
Towing capacity of vehicle if one is listed
GTW of the combination

How some cannot get their heads around that is beyond me .............


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## SuperCat007 (8 March 2016)

Thanks, so I haven't missed something vital here?

Knowing the police (especially around here), what he said may well be true that they'll go on the max towing capacity and plated weight of the trailer. But as long as I am still within the law I am more than happy to argue it, I've even had an argument with a police officer around here about the speed limit on a road, he said it was 40 mph, it's clearly signposted as 30 when you pull onto the road!


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## ROG (8 March 2016)

SuperCat007 said:



			Thanks, so I haven't missed something vital here?

Knowing the police (especially around here), what he said may well be true that they'll go on the max towing capacity and plated weight of the trailer. But as long as I am still within the law I am more than happy to argue it,
		
Click to expand...

No need to agrue with the police - just ask what specific weight law has been broken and for them to cite that on the charge - they will not be able to do that as no law has been broken

If they try to say - not in accordance with the licence - then ask which specific part of non compliance - they must state which part


I would still like to know who the B+E school is who spouts this stuff ?????????????


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## Kateestar (10 March 2016)

Hi is this thread still active?  I'm having a nightmare with information on buying a car to tow my trailer.  It's 1500kg box trailer with almost everything in (its got 2000kg on the max permitted on the frame plate).  Max we load it to is around 1600kg.  Single axle.

I wanted to buy something like a Ford Ranger, single cab, seen a couple at dealer but got no straight answer on towing limits.  I'm not sure if this is a suitable vehicle but we need lots of space to put our gear in the back (more than our jeep cherokee currently gives us) without compromising hugely on running costs / reliability & not costing the earth.  Not sure any suggestions on this?

This is the information I've found online... For a Ford Ranger, 2008, single cab, 2x4.  2.5 engine.  
Gross Payload (Kg)	1190
Gross Vehicle Weight (Kg)	2800
Kerb Weight (Kg)	1610
Towing Limit (Kg)	1600

Though I have found other contradicting information on other websites these figures seem a best match to the vehicle itself, I'm not sure how best to be 100% certain though.  Will the fact it says towing limit of 1600, if we are constatly towing at around this level affect the car over time?  Should we be looking at something bigger?

Currently going for me B+E in the next few weeks too to help stop any problems with weight limits.

Last question, our trailer has a brake on the tow bar, like a hand brake, but doesnt have electric brakes that i know of.  We bought it new 12 months ago, the manufacturer gave us lots of information and assured us its legal to drive safely for its weight.  After reading its 750kg unbraked limit are we towing illegally?  Can the manufacturer tell us / sell us the trailer (for a huge price tag)  if it's not legal to drive  (it was 1100kg when it left the workshop)

Any advice at all would be hugely appreciated, and apologies for asking stupid questions.


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## ROG (10 March 2016)

Kateestar said:



			Hi is this thread still active?  I'm having a nightmare with information on buying a car to tow my trailer.  It's 1500kg box trailer with almost everything in (its got 2000kg on the max permitted on the frame plate).  Max we load it to is around 1600kg.  Single axle.

I wanted to buy something like a Ford Ranger, single cab, seen a couple at dealer but got no straight answer on towing limits.  I'm not sure if this is a suitable vehicle but we need lots of space to put our gear in the back (more than our jeep cherokee currently gives us) without compromising hugely on running costs / reliability & not costing the earth.  Not sure any suggestions on this?

This is the information I've found online... For a Ford Ranger, 2008, single cab, 2x4.  2.5 engine.  
Gross Payload (Kg)	1190
Gross Vehicle Weight (Kg)	2800
Kerb Weight (Kg)	1610
Towing Limit (Kg)	1600

Though I have found other contradicting information on other websites these figures seem a best match to the vehicle itself, I'm not sure how best to be 100% certain though.  Will the fact it says towing limit of 1600, if we are constatly towing at around this level affect the car over time?  Should we be looking at something bigger?

Currently going for me B+E in the next few weeks too to help stop any problems with weight limits.

Last question, our trailer has a brake on the tow bar, like a hand brake, but doesnt have electric brakes that i know of.  We bought it new 12 months ago, the manufacturer gave us lots of information and assured us its legal to drive safely for its weight.  After reading its 750kg unbraked limit are we towing illegally?  Can the manufacturer tell us / sell us the trailer (for a huge price tag)  if it's not legal to drive  (it was 1100kg when it left the workshop)

Any advice at all would be hugely appreciated, and apologies for asking stupid questions.
		
Click to expand...

Very active thread with Email alerts when a member posts on it

Any trailer over 750 kg must by law have over-run brakes so your trailer plated at 2000 will have such brakes

Trailers over 3500 plated MAM weight must have electric or air brakes not those under 3500

If the vehicle says it has a 1600 max tow limit then towing a trailer including the load at 1600 is what that limit has been designed to do

At the moment on your B licence the total of 2800 + 2000 = 4800 is well over the 3500 limit but is fine for B+E when you get that


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## Kateestar (10 March 2016)

Really appreciate that!  Thank you for the very clear advice.  Tempted to purchase this one then...


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## Ssac1 (14 March 2016)

thanks for taking the trouble to put it together.. and Rog for making the generous offer to help people , now we just need to get admin's opinion and see if they will do a sticky.


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## ROG (14 March 2016)

Ssac1 said:



			thanks for taking the trouble to put it together.. and Rog for making the generous offer to help people , now we just need to get admin's opinion and see if they will do a sticky.
		
Click to expand...

this thread is already a sticky


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## tallyho! (14 March 2016)

ROG said:



			No need to agrue with the police - just ask what specific weight law has been broken and for them to cite that on the charge - they will not be able to do that as no law has been broken

If they try to say - not in accordance with the licence - then ask which specific part of non compliance - they must state which part


I would still like to know who the B+E school is who spouts this stuff ?????????????
		
Click to expand...

Lots of them do ROG! Thank goodness we can run things by you. How have you not got a spot in H&H yet?


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## tallyho! (14 March 2016)

Ssac1 said:



			thanks for taking the trouble to put it together.. and Rog for making the generous offer to help people , now we just need to get admin's opinion and see if they will do a sticky.
		
Click to expand...

Got that covered... this thread has been a sticky for nearly 4 and a half years! Thanks ROG!


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## ROG (17 March 2016)

Rose&Arnie said:



			Hello all!

Sorry I know this has probably been asked before but I couldn't find anything. Basically I've been told by the northern Ireland cheval dealer that I can tow legally with my B1 on my driver's licence as long as it stays weight wise under 3.5kg. So far I've rang cheval England, they told me to ring the DVLA which I did, the girl on the phone said 1st that I couldn't then when I told her my set up she said I could but the ring a MOT centre when i asked about down plating which I then did, they told me they would ring back but they never did. At this point my eyes are ready to fall out! &#128534; 

Can anyone help shed some light please?

I passed my test in June 2012.

My set up is a vw Passat 2.0 sport diesel turbo. I think from memory its 1.7kg and can pull 1.8kg.
The box I'm looking at getting is the new cheval touring at 850kg.
My horse is 15hh 440kg. 

Don't want a single box as I will be getting a bigger car at some point and doing my test so I can tow 2 horses.

Nobody so far I've talked to in Northen Ireland has any idea about down plating, or it seems towing legally!! 

Thank you for reading &#9786;
Rose
		
Click to expand...

Which Passat is your from this list ? = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/data/volkswagen/passat/gross-vehicle-weight/ as I need to know the GVW

The Cheval touring trailer here = http://www.jswhorseboxes.co.uk/tran...lers/cheval-liberte-touring-horse-trailer.htm is 830 empty but has a MAM of 2000 and that 2000 is the number needed for licencing

ASSUMING your Passat has a GVW of 2000 and the trailer has a MAM of 2000 then that totals 4000 so is 500 over the B (not B1) towing limit of 3500

LICENCES go on the PLATED MAX WEIGHTS and not the actual weights

SOLUTION = if those are the figures then simply contact Cheval who are the only people who can down plate the trailer from 2000 to 1500 leaving a max load for the trailer of 670 (1500-830=670) so plenty for your 440 horse

Down plating procedure is usually this - 
You contact trailer manufacturer with the trailer details
you remove current plate
you send plate plus fee to manufacturer
manufacturer sends you new plate
you fit new plate
you need access to drill and pop rivet gun


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## Rose&Arnie (17 March 2016)

Thank you for the help! Really appreciate it!

My car is the older version of the Volkswagen PASSAT DIESEL SALOON 2.0 TDI S 4dr (106g/km, diesel, manual) so it's 2,020 gross weight?

I rang cheval and the guy didn't know anything about down plating, should I ring back and see if I can find out more?

Thanks


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## Rose&Arnie (17 March 2016)

ROG said:



			Which Passat is your from this list ? = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/data/volkswagen/passat/gross-vehicle-weight/ as I need to know the GVW

The Cheval touring trailer here = http://www.jswhorseboxes.co.uk/tran...lers/cheval-liberte-touring-horse-trailer.htm is 830 empty but has a MAM of 2000 and that 2000 is the number needed for licencing

ASSUMING your Passat has a GVW of 2000 and the trailer has a MAM of 2000 then that totals 4000 so is 500 over the B (not B1) towing limit of 3500

LICENCES go on the PLATED MAX WEIGHTS and not the actual weights

SOLUTION = if those are the figures then simply contact Cheval who are the only people who can down plate the trailer from 2000 to 1500 leaving a max load for the trailer of 670 (1500-830=670) so plenty for your 440 horse

Down plating procedure is usually this - 
You contact trailer manufacturer with the trailer details
you remove current plate
you send plate plus fee to manufacturer
manufacturer sends you new plate
you fit new plate
you need access to drill and pop rivet gun
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for the help! Really appreciate it!

My car is the older version of the Volkswagen PASSAT DIESEL SALOON 2.0 TDI S 4dr (106g/km, diesel, manual) so it's 2,020 gross weight?

I rang cheval and the guy didn't know anything about down plating, should I ring back and see if I can find out more?

Thanks


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## ROG (17 March 2016)

Rose&Arnie said:



			Thank you for the help! Really appreciate it!

My car is the older version of the Volkswagen PASSAT DIESEL SALOON 2.0 TDI S 4dr (106g/km, diesel, manual) so it's 2,020 gross weight?

I rang cheval and the guy didn't know anything about down plating, should I ring back and see if I can find out more?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Get another guy on the phone because I know they do know about down plating as they do it quite often
I just tried to call them but nobody is answering = http://www.chevaltrailers.co.uk/contact.html so perhaps you can try emailing them to ask what their down plating procedure is

At 2020 GVW you need the trailer down plating to 1450 so that will leave a max trailer load of 620


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## Rose&Arnie (17 March 2016)

ROG said:



			Get another guy on the phone because I know they do know about down plating as they do it quite often
I just tried to call them but nobody is answering = http://www.chevaltrailers.co.uk/contact.html so perhaps you can try emailing them to ask what their down plating procedure is

At 2020 GVW you need the trailer down plating to 1450 so that will leave a max trailer load of 620
		
Click to expand...

Thank you I will! Still loads left over for my wee fella which is great


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## Mike007 (21 March 2016)

Vosa ,now DVSA are only interested in the actual weight of the combination . Some FIVE YEARS ago they issued a memo to that effect. Down plating is a load of cock!


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## ROG (22 March 2016)

Mike007 said:



			Vosa ,now DVSA are only interested in the actual weight of the combination . Some FIVE YEARS ago they issued a memo to that effect. Down plating is a load of cock!
		
Click to expand...

True because DVSA cannot deal with licence issues - the police deal with that

Often the DVSA and the police work together so if presented with this scenario .......
B licence
Vehicle GVW 2100 and weighing 2000 with 2000 towing capacity
Trailer MAM plated at 2500 and weighing 1400

The outcome will be no penalties issued by DVSA as all weights are legal
Not driving in accordance with the licence penalty issued by police as total MAM/GVW is 4600 which is 1600 over the 3500 B tow limit

If the trailer was down plated to 1400 then no penalties issued at all


DVSA will call the police if they suspect a driver is not driving within their licence limits


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## catherine22 (26 March 2016)

Rog, can I tow a Ifor 510 with an approx 700kg horse with a Mitzubishi Pajero 2.5l with a B (post 1997) license or do I need to do the trailer test?


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## ROG (26 March 2016)

catherine22 said:



			Rog, can I tow a Ifor 510 with an approx 700kg horse with a Mitzubishi Pajero 2.5l with a B (post 1997) license or do I need to do the trailer test?
		
Click to expand...

Please can you tell me the GVW of the car ? - this can be found as the top figure of four on the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame OR as Max Permissible Weight on the V5 keepers form

I know the HB510 is 2584 MAM and 1000 empty

The GVW of the car added to the MAM of the trailer cannot add up to more than 3500 so its unlikely that you can tow this combo on a B licence even if you down plate the trailer to 1700


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## catherine22 (26 March 2016)

Rog, the GVW of the car is 1015 so we would be over. Will save for my B+E test to be safe and legal


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## ROG (26 March 2016)

catherine22 said:



			Rog, the GVW of the car is 1015 so we would be over. Will save for my B+E test to be safe and legal
		
Click to expand...

GVW will be well over that ..... or is that a typo ?


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## catherine22 (26 March 2016)

thanks rog, was relying on OH for that figure. I have the V5 and cant see GVW on there at all, is it called something else?


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## rachk89 (26 March 2016)

Quick question (might have been covered not sure), but my mums friend asked us today if we insured our new truck for towing purposes. Now it is insured to drive, but she seemed to think we needed to pay extra to tow with it. She however does pay extra because they use their vehicles to tow as part of their business, whereas for us its private use. I am not aware of needing to pay extra to tow, am I completely wrong? It would be news to me if we do and feeling kind of stupid if we do actually need to do that.


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## catherine22 (26 March 2016)

Rog, t'internt says 
weight specifications

Unladen Weight
    3924.2 lbs OR 1780 kg
Gross Weight Limit
    5180.9 lbs OR 2350 kg

I have very little idea what that means apart from I'd be over


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## ROG (26 March 2016)

catherine22 said:



			Rog, t'internt says 
weight specifications

Unladen Weight
    3924.2 lbs OR 1780 kg
Gross Weight Limit
    5180.9 lbs OR 2350 kg

I have very little idea what that means apart from I'd be over
		
Click to expand...

I looked on internet but could not find GVW for your model so well done you

2350 + 2584 = 4934 so well over the 3500 B limit

You could down plate the trailer to 1150 but as it weighs 1000 empty you could only load 150 kg into it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## catherine22 (26 March 2016)

Back to saving then! thanks rog


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## KJJ (28 March 2016)

Passed Nov 98
B/B1 license 
BMW X5 55plate 3.0ltr diesel auto
What can I (if anything) Tow? 
Horse approx 500/600kg

Thank you!

I don't have a trailer but possibly can borrow but be interested to know if worth trying

X


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## ROG (29 March 2016)

KJJ said:



			Passed Nov 98
B/B1 license 
BMW X5 55plate 3.0ltr diesel auto
What can I (if anything) Tow? 
Horse approx 500/600kg

Thank you!

I don't have a trailer but possibly can borrow but be interested to know if worth trying

X
		
Click to expand...

If this is your car = http://www.autoevolution.com/cars/bmw-x5-e53-2003.html#aeng_bmw-x5-2003-30d - then the GVW is 2685kg which only leaves 815 kg for a trailer on a B licence which is no good for a horse trailer

You need a car with a GVW around say 2200kg max so you can get something like a Bateson Derby trailer down plated from 1700 to 1300 and as it weighs 675 empty it leaves a max trailer load of 625

The plated GVW(MAM) of the towing vehicle added to the plated MAM of the trailer cannot total more than 3500 on a B licence
GVW + MAM mean the same thing = the max weight something can be when fully loaded

Licences go on plated weights not actual weight


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## KJJ (29 March 2016)

ROG said:



			If this is your car = http://www.autoevolution.com/cars/bmw-x5-e53-2003.html#aeng_bmw-x5-2003-30d - then the GVW is 2685kg which only leaves 815 kg for a trailer on a B licence which is no good for a horse trailer

You need a car with a GVW around say 2200kg max so you can get something like a Bateson Derby trailer down plated from 1700 to 1300 and as it weighs 675 empty it leaves a max trailer load of 625

The plated GVW(MAM) of the towing vehicle added to the plated MAM of the trailer cannot total more than 3500 on a B licence
GVW + MAM mean the same thing = the max weight something can be when fully loaded

Licences go on plated weights not actual weight
		
Click to expand...

It is indeed my car. Thank you for info x


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## ROG (29 March 2016)

KJJ said:



			It is indeed my car. Thank you for info x
		
Click to expand...

You can tow under B+E prov rules - see post number 2000 of this thread


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## tractor (29 March 2016)

1) 1870kg
2) 2850kg
3) 5540kg
4) 3500kg
5) 800kg

Not mine, but work trailers! Thank you  Drivers all have B+E


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## ROG (29 March 2016)

tractor said:



			1) 1870kg
2) 2850kg
3) 5540kg
4) 3500kg
5) 800kg

Not mine, but work trailers! Thank you  Drivers all have B+E
		
Click to expand...

5540 - 2850 = 2690 so 2690 will be the maximum for the trailer including its load UNLESS there is no towing capacity listed in which case the vehicle + its load added to the trailer + its load must not exceed 5540


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## tractor (29 March 2016)

Thank you - they are Ifor Williams Flatbeds, would you know if they can be downplated? We got pulled today, the police basically said if there was a 2500 trailer behind the same vehicle, we'd have been legal. It's all very confusing! If the current vehicles aren't suitable, would you know what would be.....Isuzu? Thank you, x


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## ROG (29 March 2016)

tractor said:



			Thank you - they are Ifor Williams Flatbeds, would you know if they can be downplated? We got pulled today, the police basically said if there was a 2500 trailer behind the same vehicle, we'd have been legal. It's all very confusing! If the current vehicles aren't suitable, would you know what would be.....Isuzu? Thank you, x
		
Click to expand...

BULLCRAP BY PLOD

I hope you have their contact details or police officer numbers so you can ask then what law has been broken and make sure they give you the exact law under the 1988 RTS ot the C&U regs .................... THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BECAUSE NO LAW WAS BROKEN

Down plating is only needed to conform to B licence towing or to keep under the 3500 MAM limit for tacho regs etc - certainly not to conform to any B+E licence requirements

ADD = please post what police force this was and the place date and time etc so I can call them !!


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## KJJ (29 March 2016)

ROG said:



			You can tow under B+E prov rules - see post number 2000 of this thread
		
Click to expand...

Totally confused now!! Brain not working but thank you x


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## ROG (29 March 2016)

KJJ said:



			Totally confused now!! Brain not working but thank you x
		
Click to expand...

THIS means you can drive a B+E set up under Learner rules as you cannot drive your current set up on your own because the total plated weights add up to more than 3500 kgs

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


----------



## KJJ (29 March 2016)

ROG said:



			THIS means you can drive a B+E set up under Learner rules as you cannot drive your current set up on your own because the total plated weights add up to more than 3500 kgs

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving
		
Click to expand...

Great that makes sense!! Thank you


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## tractor (31 March 2016)

ROG said:



			BULLCRAP BY PLOD

I hope you have their contact details or police officer numbers so you can ask then what law has been broken and make sure they give you the exact law under the 1988 RTS ot the C&U regs .................... THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BECAUSE NO LAW WAS BROKEN

Down plating is only needed to conform to B licence towing or to keep under the 3500 MAM limit for tacho regs etc - certainly not to conform to any B+E licence requirements

ADD = please post what police force this was and the place date and time etc so I can call them !!
		
Click to expand...

Ooh that's interesting - they said that we were illegal, that the trucks (single cab L200) could only tow 2500 (2690) in total, so our 3500 rated trailers loaded with hay/straw/bedding weren't legal. This was Essex Police, at Boreham Services on Tuesday at around 12noon. We've been stopped before by the Met, they weighed us and said that as long as we were under the total 5540......which we would always be as there's only so much you can stack on ;-) So confusing.


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## ROG (31 March 2016)

tractor said:



			Ooh that's interesting - they said that we were illegal, that the trucks (single cab L200) could only tow 2500 (2690) in total, so our 3500 rated trailers loaded with hay/straw/bedding weren't legal. This was Essex Police, at Boreham Services on Tuesday at around 12noon. We've been stopped before by the Met, they weighed us and said that as long as we were under the total 5540......which we would always be as there's only so much you can stack on ;-) So confusing.
		
Click to expand...

Essex plod at Boreham need to brush up on the law

This is 100% legal
Vehicle GVW 2200 with a 2000 towing capacity and GTW at 4200 towing a trailer plated at 3500 weighing 1000 empty loaded with 1000

If the vehicle was actually weighing 2200 and the trailer at 2000 then .....
GVW not over
Trailer MAM not over
GTW not over
Towing capacity not over

So what are plod going to charge a driver with ??????????????


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## Mike007 (31 March 2016)

Whilst rog and I have our differences on other legal matters , I wish to say that he is totaly on the mark here!


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## Jaybugg (3 April 2016)

1 - B
2 - 1800
3 - 2.2
4 - 2.0
5 - 1t
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer Unknown :/ metal rice mare and foal pony box (hoping to get to weighbridge soon but as an estimate 650kg?)


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## Jaybugg (3 April 2016)

Done some research trailer is rice eventer (older style) unladen weight 610kg


----------



## ROG (3 April 2016)

Jaybugg said:



			1 - B
2 - 1800
3 - 2.2
4 - 2.0
5 - 1t
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer Unknown :/ metal rice mare and foal pony box (hoping to get to weighbridge soon but as an estimate 650kg?)
Done some research trailer is rice eventer (older style) unladen weight 610kg
		
Click to expand...

If the GVW (3) is 2200 then the max plated weight for a trailer is 1300 so the question is ... do you have the plated weight on the trailer or if not then I need to know the total of all the tyre load ratings = http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating

I also saw your other post


Jaybugg said:



			Hi I am another who has become a little bamboozled by the towing rules and jargon. 
So I have a metal sided wood floor older style rice rear unload only trailer (mare and foal box) with a MAM 1tonne -unladen weight yet unknown -anyone with a similar trailer have any idea? Hoping to get to a weigh bridge soon. 
Towing with a 2.2 diesel Honda CR-V. Mam 2.2t with unladen weight 1750kg 
The pony I want to tow is 375kg

Am I legal?? 

Ps I have a b lisence. Passing test post 1997.
		
Click to expand...


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## Jaybugg (3 April 2016)

Thanks for your time yeah it has a small plate on the inside of the box which states MAM 1t the wheels (provided I looked at the right bit?? Are 75/75/75/70

Hope that makes sense?


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## ROG (3 April 2016)

Jaybugg said:



			Thanks for your time yeah it has a small plate on the inside of the box which states MAM 1t the wheels (provided I looked at the right bit?? Are 75/75/75/70

Hope that makes sense?
		
Click to expand...

MAM plate makes no sense

The tyre load ratings will now be the MAM so 387+387+387+335=1496 

At 1496 (lets call it 1500) its illegal for your set up as 2200+1500=3700 so 200 over the 3500 limit for B towing
There is no way to get a new weight plate as Rice are not in business = NEW trailer needed where the manufacturer is still trading so it can be legally down plated


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## Jaybugg (3 April 2016)

Great thanks. Already booked in for b+e anyways at end of month so will just have to wait to get that by before heading on any adventures cheers


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## ROG (3 April 2016)

Jaybugg said:



			Great thanks. Already booked in for b+e anyways at end of month so will just have to wait to get that by before heading on any adventures cheers
		
Click to expand...

Until then you just need someone sitting next to you ..............

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## Mrsjackson161 (5 April 2016)

tallyho! said:



			After the recent poll by perfect11s:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=489592

Many agreed a sticky would be very useful, but the format needed to change to avoid the confusion/arguments.

At the end of the above thread, ROG kindly agreed to help run a Towing Clinic for those who find the laws & limitations as confusing as I did.

*
Here is an example of how it will work:-*

"If a member on here was to provide me with the relevant info then I can say whether the set up is legal or not on either a B or BE licence and WHY

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

- ROG

"I'll start here first...

1. B+E Licence
2. 2410kg (this is kerbweight/unladen right?)
3. 3450kg (not too sure about this - what does it mean? Max load of vehicle?)
4. 2500kg (Capacity)
5. 1905kg (HB505)
6. 905kg

Thanks ROG. "

- tallyho!

"LEGAL

1 - max vehicle GVW of 3500 (you got 3450) and max trailer MAM of 3500 (you got 1905)
2 - correct - usually listed in handbook
3 - correct - number 2 (2410) with full load of 1040 (2410+1040=3450)
4 - max weight of empty trailer plus the load on it
5 minus 6 1905-905=1000 so 1000 is the max load that can be loaded onto the trailer

5 is much lower than 4 so a fully laden trailler weighing 1905 is well within the max towing capacity of 2500

Your max combination weight would be 5355 with that set up (3450+1905=5355) but you could go up to 5950 if you got a trailer with a MAM of at least 2500 (up to 3500)

ADD - the problem in getting a trailer with a greater MAM could be that it is heavier when empty so getting a 3500 MAM trailer which weighed 1500 empty still only allows you a max payload of 1000 because of the 2500 towing capacity limit for your vehicle

If you are happy with the trailer load capacity of 1000 then great! "

-ROG

Hope that makes sense and you find it useful. Any questions about using the clinic, please PM me so we can keep the clinic running as smoothly as possible.

Useful Links:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_10013073

http://www.uktow.com/towing capacity.asp?make=Nissan#tab1

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/index.htm

TYRE LOAD RATINGS calculate KGS by multiplying the number of tyres

ROG's thread: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=475968

Click to expand...

Hi I am wondering if you could work one out for me  

1. B test 
2. 1555
3.2050
4. 2600
5.1905
6.920

thank you


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## ROG (5 April 2016)

Mrsjackson161 said:



			Hi I am wondering if you could work one out for me  

1. B test 
2. 1555
3.2050
4. 2600
5.1905
6.920

thank you
		
Click to expand...

Trailer needs down plating from 1905 to 1450 which then leaves a max trailer load of 530kg

HMMM.... you sure its plated at 1905 and not 2600 ???????????


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## Mrsjackson161 (5 April 2016)

Yes I think I have got muddled up. I am towing with a 2003 freelander 2.0 diesel and a HB506 trailer


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## ROG (5 April 2016)

Mrsjackson161 said:



			Yes I think I have got muddled up. I am towing with a 2003 freelander 2.0 diesel and a HB506 trailer
		
Click to expand...

Trailer plated MAM is 2600 so would need to be down plated to 1450 via contact with IW

Do you need to load more than 530 in total weight into the trailer ?


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## Mrsjackson161 (5 April 2016)

ROG said:



			Trailer plated MAM is 2600 so would need to be down plated to 1450 via contact with IW

Do you need to load more than 530 in total weight into the trailer ?
		
Click to expand...

No the horse is about 450/500


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## ROG (5 April 2016)

Mrsjackson161 said:



			No the horse is about 450/500
		
Click to expand...

OK to to down plate and use it for B towing

Can be up-plated at a later date should the need arise


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## JenHunt (6 April 2016)

a different sort of a question.... 

we currently tow an old wooden ward trailer (with extra thick floor boards), c. 1500kg empty with a Merc M380 (very fuel thirsty, and coming to the end of its life) to carry 2 big horses (650 and 680kg) who don't travel/fit well in an Ifor 511 (one is too wide, the other is too long).

We are looking at the options for as and when the vehicle does get to the end of its life... 

What would people advise?  All drivers have B+E or are exempt having passed their test in the 70s. Only doing a max of 3000miles a year with horses. Trailer is currently stored under cover, and so would any replacements be.

Not averse to getting a small van type box, but feel it would be cheaper to get a second hand 4x4 and lighter weight trailer for the mileage we do.....


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## ROG (6 April 2016)

I cannot help with vehicle options so you may be better to post a seperate thread on the site or perhaps take a look at the bottom link in my signature below


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## catherine22 (7 April 2016)

ROG said:



			I looked on internet but could not find GVW for your model so well done you

2350 + 2584 = 4934 so well over the 3500 B limit

You could down plate the trailer to 1150 but as it weighs 1000 empty you could only load 150 kg into it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

ROG, Would I be able to tow this set up (Pajero and 510) empty - for example to take it to be serviced or would that still be over?


----------



## ROG (8 April 2016)

catherine22 said:



			ROG, Would I be able to tow this set up (Pajero and 510) empty - for example to take it to be serviced or would that still be over?
		
Click to expand...

OVER as it is the plated weights which determine what licence is needed not actual weights


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## KdyK (10 April 2016)

Hi ROG,

wonder if you can help me. I'm in the market for a 4x4 and trailer. I have not decided on either yet, I would just like to try and get my head around what the rules and regs are so I don't have to ask you every possible combination!!

So far what I have gleaned from skimming this thread is:
* Trailer MAM (5) must not exceed Unladen weight of the Car (2) [is this correct? All the trailers I've seen have MAM around 1900-2400kg, but the unladen weights of all the cars (I have a spreadsheet!) are anywehere from 1490kg(Skoda Yeti) to 1780kg (Hyundai Tucson)]
* GVW of the Car (3) + Trailer MAM (5) cannot exceed 3500kg for a B License [currently all I hold, but I am not against saving up to get my B+E in the future]

Anything else I should be looking at? (Beyond obviously not towing more than the car legally can!!!)

I am so far looking at variations on the Sportage, Qashqai, X-Trail, Tiguan (surprisingly meaty!), Tucson and Yeti. Any other suggestions? Needs to be relatively civilised on fuel as I will most like use it as my main car and I drive ~60miles a day!

Thanks in advance for any help!


----------



## ROG (10 April 2016)

KdyK said:



			Hi ROG,

wonder if you can help me. I'm in the market for a 4x4 and trailer. I have not decided on either yet, I would just like to try and get my head around what the rules and regs are so I don't have to ask you every possible combination!!

So far what I have gleaned from skimming this thread is:
* Trailer MAM (5) must not exceed Unladen weight of the Car (2) [is this correct? All the trailers I've seen have MAM around 1900-2400kg, but the unladen weights of all the cars (I have a spreadsheet!) are anywehere from 1490kg(Skoda Yeti) to 1780kg (Hyundai Tucson)]
* GVW of the Car (3) + Trailer MAM (5) cannot exceed 3500kg for a B License [currently all I hold, but I am not against saving up to get my B+E in the future]

Anything else I should be looking at? (Beyond obviously not towing more than the car legally can!!!)

I am so far looking at variations on the Sportage, Qashqai, X-Trail, Tiguan (surprisingly meaty!), Tucson and Yeti. Any other suggestions? Needs to be relatively civilised on fuel as I will most like use it as my main car and I drive ~60miles a day!

Thanks in advance for any help!
		
Click to expand...

* Trailer MAM (5) must not exceed Unladen weight of the Car (2) [is this correct? = NO as that rule was revoked on 19/01/2013 so you can ignore all the unladen weights

For B licence towing you need the vehicle GVW added to the trailer MAM not to exceed 3500kg so the lower the vehicle GVW the greater the trailer MAM can be

GVW and MAM mean exactly the same thing = the maximum something can legally be when fully loaded

I am not very up on various vehicle suggestions apart from one which is the Skoda Octavia 4x4 as it seems to cover all the bases from towing to commuting and along with a lightweight trailer such as a Bateson Derby, down plated via contact with manufacturer, so the set up makes for a good B licence combo 

Octavia GVW = about 2100
Derby MAM 1400 (down plated from 1700)
Leaves 725 for the trailer load


----------



## KdyK (11 April 2016)

ROG said:



			* Trailer MAM (5) must not exceed Unladen weight of the Car (2) [is this correct? = NO as that rule was revoked on 19/01/2013 so you can ignore all the unladen weights

For B licence towing you need the vehicle GVW added to the trailer MAM not to exceed 3500kg so the lower the vehicle GVW the greater the trailer MAM can be

GVW and MAM mean exactly the same thing = the maximum something can legally be when fully loaded

I am not very up on various vehicle suggestions apart from one which is the Skoda Octavia 4x4 as it seems to cover all the bases from towing to commuting and along with a lightweight trailer such as a Bateson Derby, down plated via contact with manufacturer, so the set up makes for a good B licence combo 

Octavia GVW = about 2100
Derby MAM 1400 (down plated from 1700)
Leaves 725 for the trailer load
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ROG. It's such a minefield when trying to do the right thing! 

So if I had a Yeti with a GVW of 2130kg, I would have 1370kg to play with as a trailer MAM (almost OK with your Derby example!)? To stick on a B license? Like I said, happy to do my B+E but it's a longer term plan, would like to be able to transport somehow sooner rather than later  I'd only be taking my ISH at ~550kg or my youngster anyway, neither together, certainly not yet!

The octavia unfortunately leaves me with the problem that I need something beefier for the roads, the samller cars are struggling both suspension wise and too much waterwise, but good to know what I can go on! 

Thanks again!


----------



## ROG (11 April 2016)

KdyK said:



			Thanks ROG. It's such a minefield when trying to do the right thing! 

So if I had a Yeti with a GVW of 2130kg, I would have 1370kg to play with as a trailer MAM (almost OK with your Derby example!)? To stick on a B license? Like I said, happy to do my B+E but it's a longer term plan, would like to be able to transport somehow sooner rather than later  I'd only be taking my ISH at ~550kg
		
Click to expand...

You got it !

With something like a HB401/3 it could be down plated from 1600 to 1370 and as its 780 empty that would leave 590 for the trailer load


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## KdyK (12 April 2016)

ROG said:



			You got it !

With something like a HB401/3 it could be down plated from 1600 to 1370 and as its 780 empty that would leave 590 for the trailer load
		
Click to expand...

Fabulous ROG, thank you! 

One final question, then I'll leave you alone. How do you find out what each trailer can be down plated to? Is it a question of contacting the various companies and asking?

Was hoping I would be able to hire for a bit of this year, but probably not if I will need to down plate to stay within my license. Another goal!


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## ROG (12 April 2016)

KdyK said:



			Fabulous ROG, thank you! 

One final question, then I'll leave you alone. How do you find out what each trailer can be down plated to? Is it a question of contacting the various companies and asking?

Was hoping I would be able to hire for a bit of this year, but probably not if I will need to down plate to stay within my license. Another goal! 

Click to expand...

The trailer manufacturer is the only place where a trailer under 3500 kg MAM can be legally down plated so hiring one is unlikely to be an option


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## Chloeap (12 April 2016)

Hi I am trying to work out whether I would be able to tow with my Peugeot 407.
Any help is appreciated as I'm finding it all so confusing! 

I have a B licence (passed my test in 2011) and kerb weight of car is 1635kg
I can't find some of the other info needed but found the braked towing weight is 1600 kg (not sure if this is relevant?!!) sorry I'm new to this! 
I don't have a trailer yet so open to suggestions - but would probably look for a single horse trailer and think i might need to down plate it?! Help!

Thank you in advance!


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## ROG (12 April 2016)

Chloeap said:



			Hi I am trying to work out whether I would be able to tow with my Peugeot 407.
Any help is appreciated as I'm finding it all so confusing! 

I have a B licence (passed my test in 2011) and kerb weight of car is 1635kg
I can't find some of the other info needed but found the braked towing weight is 1600 kg (not sure if this is relevant?!!) sorry I'm new to this! 
I don't have a trailer yet so open to suggestions - but would probably look for a single horse trailer and think i might need to down plate it?! Help!

Thank you in advance!
		
Click to expand...

which 407 model ?
GVW or maximum permissible mass is on the V5 keepers document and is the top of four figures on the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame ...... I need the GVW before going any further


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## greeneyebrow (14 April 2016)

Hi, I am new to the forum and I am after some advice. I have asked the question on other forums but haven't had a clear answer with regards to law.
My wife is wanting to buy a small horse box and we need to know if we can use out mpv to tow it with.
Our motor is a Nissan Elgrand, 2003 model E51. it is a JDM model and has no GTW on the vin plate or on the log book.
Nissan japan say they never issued weights for towing as they never homologated it for towing.
Watling towbars sell a towbar for this model and claim that type approval doesn't apply to a JDM which is fair enough, it doesn't, but how can you tow with a car if the manufacturer doesn't issue towing weights? How would you calculate the towing limit? Surely as soon as the train weight goes over the MAM of the Elgrand 2570KG you will be overweight? or have I got it all wrong?

I cannot seem to find anything online to verify this, the DVLA and the DVSA seem to either miss understand or just don't know.

Many thanks in advance to anyone that knows the legal position regarding this.

Rob and Kerry


----------



## ROG (14 April 2016)

greeneyebrow said:



			Hi, I am new to the forum and I am after some advice. I have asked the question on other forums but haven't had a clear answer with regards to law.
My wife is wanting to buy a small horse box and we need to know if we can use out mpv to tow it with.
Our motor is a Nissan Elgrand, 2003 model E51. it is a JDM model and has no GTW on the vin plate or on the log book.
Nissan japan say they never issued weights for towing as they never homologated it for towing.
Watling towbars sell a towbar for this model and claim that type approval doesn't apply to a JDM which is fair enough, it doesn't, but how can you tow with a car if the manufacturer doesn't issue towing weights? How would you calculate the towing limit? Surely as soon as the train weight goes over the MAM of the Elgrand 2570KG you will be overweight? or have I got it all wrong?

I cannot seem to find anything online to verify this, the DVLA and the DVSA seem to either miss understand or just don't know.

Many thanks in advance to anyone that knows the legal position regarding this.

Rob and Kerry
		
Click to expand...

They only way is to contact Nissan UK https://www.nissan.co.uk/customer-service/contact-us.html


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## greeneyebrow (14 April 2016)

Thankyou very much for the speedy reply.
Nissan UK state that as it is a JDM I would have to contact Nissan Japan on postoffice@nissan.co.jp who sent back the reply about them not homologating the Elgrand for towing hence no weights were issued.


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## ROG (14 April 2016)

greeneyebrow said:



			Thankyou very much for the speedy reply.
Nissan UK state that as it is a JDM I would have to contact Nissan Japan on postoffice@nissan.co.jp who sent back the reply about them not homologating the Elgrand for towing hence no weights were issued.
		
Click to expand...

I know little on this type of law but I seem to remember that if no GTW is shown then no towing can be done with it - BUT NOT SURE


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## greeneyebrow (14 April 2016)

Thanks again for the prompt reply. It seems a very grey area and with tow bar manufacturers happy to produce tow bars it could lead people into a whole heap of trouble, possibly, it id very difficult to find someone at the DVSA who knows the rules. 
I am wondering wether to rock up at a vosa weighbridge with the motor and see what they say there.
Thanks again..


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## Molly_Magic (16 April 2016)

1 - Pre - 1997 licence
2 - 1678
3 - 2200
4 - 2200
5 - 2340
6 - 905

I currently tow one small pony <500kg. Am interested in what additional weight I could tow. 
Many thanks in advance


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## ROG (17 April 2016)

Molly_Magic said:



			1 - Pre - 1997 licence
2 - 1678
3 - 2200
4 - 2200
5 - 2340
6 - 905

I currently tow one small pony <500kg. Am interested in what additional weight I could tow. 
Many thanks in advance
		
Click to expand...

You can load a max of 1295 into the trailer (2200 towing capacity minus 905 empty trailer = 1295)


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## Joyous70 (20 April 2016)

ROG

I have a quick question if you don't mind?

I have a Nissan X trail, which I use for towing max towing capacity 2000kgs

Am I right in thinking that I am breaking the law if the maximum weight of the trailer fully laden exceeds my vehicle's towing capacity even if I am not towing up to the full weight?

Thanks in Advance


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## ROG (20 April 2016)

Joyous70 said:



			ROG

I have a quick question if you don't mind?

I have a Nissan X trail, which I use for towing max towing capacity 2000kgs

Am I right in thinking that I am breaking the law if the maximum weight of the trailer fully laden exceeds my vehicle's towing capacity even if I am not towing up to the full weight?

Thanks in Advance
		
Click to expand...

answer here = https://forums-secure.horseandhound...ing-Clinic&p=13198189&viewfull=1#post13198189


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## Joyous70 (21 April 2016)

Thanks ROG   I will be back later with some more questions as I am looking at different trailers.


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## ROG (21 April 2016)

that link did not go directly to the post so .....

There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to accommodate a trailer plated MAM but there are plenty of internet myths on this

This is legal 
B+E licence
vehicle towing capacity 2000
trailer plated MAM 3500
trailer empty weight 1000
trailer loaded with 1000


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## Joyous70 (21 April 2016)

ROG said:



			that link did not go directly to the post so .....

There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to accommodate a trailer plated MAM but there are plenty of internet myths on this

This is legal 
B+E licence
vehicle towing capacity 2000
trailer plated MAM 3500
trailer empty weight 1000
trailer loaded with 1000[/QUOTE

ROG

this is great thank you, I am looking at an Ifor which mgw 2600 Unladen 920, only taking one horse at around 500 to 550kgs so looking at max of 1500kgs and I have a B+E licence as passed before 1997.
		
Click to expand...


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## ROG (21 April 2016)

pinkypug1 said:



			Hi folks can some smart cookie help me out? 
I have a Kia Sportage 1.7 and am wondering if I can legally tow without B+e as I passed my test in 1999  

Gross weight 2000kg
Max trailer load braked 1400kg
 I want to tow an ifor Williams single trailer at 767kg + horse no more than 550kg

Is it possible & legal?? I will only be going to local events so max 30 mile journeys once per month. If you need any other vehicle stats I can give them too you if it helps work it out 

Click to expand...

Car GVW 2000 ???? are you certain that is the 'maximum permissible mass' on the V5 keepers doc or the top figure of 4 on the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame ????
ASSUMING 2000 is the correct GVW then contact IW and they will guide you through the down plating from 1600 to 1500

With the trailer at 1500 MAM but the towing capacity at 1400 means that a max of 633 can be loaded into the trailer (767 + 633 = 1400)

2000 vehicle GVW + 1500 trailer MAM = 3500 = legal for B licence towing


----------



## pinkypug1 (21 April 2016)

I got the 2000 from the online specs of the vehicle not under the bonnet. Is 2000 low or high?? Will have a look there later. Mare is def below 600kg


----------



## Akkalia1 (21 April 2016)

Aha, I was about to post my own thread, but this is far better. I have a question... I have been tormenting myself with weights of cars, weights of trailers and what I can tow for some time now, I keep thinking I understand it but I'm not totally sure.

I'm taking my trailer test in June and assuming I pass I shall be buying a trailer. Now this may well be a stupid question coming up... I have a Seat Leon 1.4 turbo hatchback which I love, it's economical to run and road tax is low. I'm so reluctant to go to a gas guzzling 4x4 with astronomical road tax. But I don't think I've seen a hatchback towing a trailer, ever. However I did some investigations.

My car has a braked towing capacity of 1500kgs. If I get a Bateson lightweight double at 675kg unladen weight and add my horse at 500kg I'm well under the limit. The MAM of the trailer is 1700kg, what I'm struggling to find out is does my car need to be capable of pulling the MAM of the trailer to be legal? Help please ROG?!! I also saw something about the weight of what you're towing shouldn't be more than 85% of the kerb weight of your car? Is this also the law or was that not true? 

Also, even IF my car would be legal to tow this trailer and my horse, would it be wise? Seems like it's an awful lot to tow with a small car. Plus I couldn't park in a muddy field with any hope of getting out.   But I love my nice economical car


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## ROG (21 April 2016)

Akkalia1 said:



			Aha, I was about to post my own thread, but this is far better. I have a question... I have been tormenting myself with weights of cars, weights of trailers and what I can tow for some time now, I keep thinking I understand it but I'm not totally sure.

I'm taking my trailer test in June and assuming I pass I shall be buying a trailer. Now this may well be a stupid question coming up... I have a Seat Leon 1.4 turbo hatchback which I love, it's economical to run and road tax is low. I'm so reluctant to go to a gas guzzling 4x4 with astronomical road tax. But I don't think I've seen a hatchback towing a trailer, ever. However I did some investigations.

My car has a braked towing capacity of 1500kgs. If I get a Bateson lightweight double at 675kg unladen weight and add my horse at 500kg I'm well under the limit. The MAM of the trailer is 1700kg, what I'm struggling to find out is does my car need to be capable of pulling the MAM of the trailer to be legal? Help please ROG?!! I also saw something about the weight of what you're towing shouldn't be more than 85% of the kerb weight of your car? Is this also the law or was that not true? 

Also, even IF my car would be legal to tow this trailer and my horse, would it be wise? Seems like it's an awful lot to tow with a small car. Plus I couldn't park in a muddy field with any hope of getting out.   But I love my nice economical car 

Click to expand...

see post number 2728 above

85% issue is for caravans only


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## ROG (21 April 2016)

pinkypug1 said:



			I got the 2000 from the online specs of the vehicle not under the bonnet. Is 2000 low or high?? Will have a look there later. Mare is def below 600kg
		
Click to expand...

I would deffo double check GVW but if higher than 2000 then down plate trailer further perhaps to 1400


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## Akkalia1 (21 April 2016)

Ooops, sorry ROG, didn't read previous posts. Ok, so my car should be able to tow it then? Is it bonkers to consider towing a horse trailer with a seat leon 3dr hatchback, despite it seeming to be legal, don't want to put too much strain on my car?


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## ROG (21 April 2016)

Akkalia1 said:



			Ooops, sorry ROG, didn't read previous posts. Ok, so my car should be able to tow it then? Is it bonkers to consider towing a horse trailer with a seat leon 3dr hatchback, despite it seeming to be legal, don't want to put too much strain on my car?
		
Click to expand...

Vehicle towing limits have been carefully considered by the manufacturers because if they did not they they would get sued in court a lot !


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## Akkalia1 (21 April 2016)

OK, I shall give it a bash then!!  Assuming I pass.


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## ROG (21 April 2016)

Akkalia1 said:



			OK, I shall give it a bash then!!  Assuming I pass.
		
Click to expand...

You do not need B+E to tow that set up if you down plate the trailer


----------



## pinkypug1 (21 April 2016)

says 2000kg gross weight limit for the 1.7 diesel Kia Sportage is that different to gross vehicle weight?


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## ROG (21 April 2016)

pinkypug1 said:



			says 2000kg gross weight limit for the 1.7 diesel Kia Sportage is that different to gross vehicle weight?
		
Click to expand...

same thing


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## Akkalia1 (22 April 2016)

ROG said:



			You do not need B+E to tow that set up if you down plate the trailer
		
Click to expand...

Oh rubbish! I had calculated it all and knew I couldn't do it on my B license, but I didn't know about the option of downplating then. So I've already booked and paid for my test. Still I think it'll be useful to have for the future and also good to know that if I fail I can still tow by downplating!


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## winstonator (25 April 2016)

Hi ROC

I would apprecaite confirmation that I can legally tow the following:

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
B, B1 and BE

2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
Is this "Mass in Service" as per my V5C?  If so, its 1625kg

3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
Is this "Revenue Weight" or "Maximum Permissable Mass" as per my V5C? If so, its 2180kg (both are same)

4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
"Techincal permissable maximum towable mass" as per V5C is 1800kg

5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
Is this fully ladden weight of trailer?  If so its 1600kg

6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
Unladden 767kg.

Horse is approx 450kg (max 500kg)
Trailer is IFOR Williams 403 current year model

Thank you.


----------



## ROG (25 April 2016)

winstonator said:



			Hi ROC

I would apprecaite confirmation that I can legally tow the following:

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
B, B1 and BE

2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
Is this "Mass in Service" as per my V5C?  If so, its 1625kg

3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
Is this "Revenue Weight" or "Maximum Permissable Mass" as per my V5C? If so, its 2180kg (both are same)

4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
"Techincal permissable maximum towable mass" as per V5C is 1800kg

5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
Is this fully ladden weight of trailer?  If so its 1600kg

6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
Unladden 767kg.

Horse is approx 450kg (max 500kg)
Trailer is IFOR Williams 403 current year model

Thank you.
		
Click to expand...

ALL LEGAL
Max load for trailer = 833kg (1600-767=833)


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## winstonator (25 April 2016)

ROG said:



			ALL LEGAL
Max load for trailer = 833kg (1600-767=833)
		
Click to expand...

Super!  Thanks for the speedy reply, much appreciated.


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## ROG (26 April 2016)

winstonator said:



			Hi ROC

I would apprecaite confirmation that I can legally tow the following:

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
B, B1 and BE

2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
Is this "Mass in Service" as per my V5C?  If so, its 1625kg

3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
Is this "Revenue Weight" or "Maximum Permissable Mass" as per my V5C? If so, its 2180kg (both are same)

4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
"Techincal permissable maximum towable mass" as per V5C is 1800kg

5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
Is this fully ladden weight of trailer?  If so its 1600kg

6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
Unladden 767kg.

Horse is approx 450kg (max 500kg)
Trailer is IFOR Williams 403 current year model

Thank you.
		
Click to expand...

I know you have BE licence but for those wondering ...... if the trailer was down plated via contact with IW to 1300 then it would be legal for B licence towing with a max trailer load of 533kg


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## Blythwind (30 April 2016)

Rog - I have tried to message you but it won't allow me to send the message.. Help?


----------



## ROG (30 April 2016)

Blythwind said:



			Rog - I have tried to message you but it won't allow me to send the message.. Help?
		
Click to expand...

Have messages disabled because I prefer to answer all queries publically


----------



## Blythwind (30 April 2016)

Ok that makes sense. it wasn't a generic towing query though - it was about getting some reversing practice help before b+e test! On another post, you offered help to those near to Leicester, so I wondered if that offer was still open?


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## ROG (30 April 2016)

Blythwind said:



			Ok that makes sense. it wasn't a generic towing query though - it was about getting some reversing practice help before b+e test! On another post, you offered help to those near to Leicester, so I wondered if that offer was still open?
		
Click to expand...

yes it is = all i ask for are my expenses

I have a spare email account = advanced.driving@live.co.uk


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## ROG (30 April 2016)

double post


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## Chloeap (30 April 2016)

Hi. I'm looking for some advice to whether I would be legal to tow with my Peugeot 407 sw. Posted a while ago but couldn't find all of the info which I have now gathered. 
1. B licence 
2. 1645 kerb weigh 
3. Gvw 2105
4. Gtw 3605 
5. Not sure of this part.. 
6. 675 

Wondering if this is possible without doing trailer test, I am thinking of doing the test in the future though. 

Thank you for your help!


----------



## ROG (30 April 2016)

Chloeap said:



			Hi. I'm looking for some advice to whether I would be legal to tow with my Peugeot 407 sw. Posted a while ago but couldn't find all of the info which I have now gathered. 
1. B licence 
2. 1645 kerb weigh 
3. Gvw 2105
4. Gtw 3605 
5. Not sure of this part.. 
6. 675 

Wondering if this is possible without doing trailer test, I am thinking of doing the test in the future though. 

Thank you for your help!
		
Click to expand...

Is it a bateson derby trailer plated at 1700 kg ? = number 5 on the list = very important for licencing 

If it is then it needs down plating to a maximum of 1395 to make it legal for B towing

Your vehicle has a max towing capacity of 1500 (3605-2105=1500)

If you down plated the trailer to 1350 then you can still load 675 into it


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## Chloeap (30 April 2016)

ROG said:



			Is it a bateson derby trailer plated at 1700 kg ? = number 5 on the list = very important for licencing 

If it is then it needs down plating to a maximum of 1395 to make it legal for B towing

Your vehicle has a max towing capacity of 1500 (3605-2105=1500)

If you down plated the trailer to 1350 then you can still load 675 into it
		
Click to expand...

Hi no it is a rice concours. Not sure what it's plated at. 
Is it legal with towing licence? As dad can tow for me in the mean time


----------



## Chloeap (30 April 2016)

This might be a stupid question but where is the plate? I have photos of the trailer but can't see it on there?


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## ROG (1 May 2016)

Chloeap said:



			This might be a stupid question but where is the plate? I have photos of the trailer but can't see it on there?
		
Click to expand...

As it is a rice it may not have one and as they are no longer trading it means you cannot get one
The total of the tyre load ratings are  now used as the trailer MAM = http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating



Chloeap said:



			Hi no it is a rice concours. Not sure what it's plated at. 
Is it legal with towing licence? As dad can tow for me in the mean time 

Click to expand...

After finding the trailer MAM via the tyre load ratings you then add that number to the 2105 GVW and if it total more than 3500 you cannot tow it on a B licence
You can tow it with dad or another sat next to you providing .......

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


You really need a lightweight trailer by a company that is still trading so you can down plate it for B towing


----------



## Blythwind (1 May 2016)

Great, thank you!
Is there a way to message you to sort date/location. I am just north of Loughborough.


----------



## ROG (1 May 2016)

Blythwind said:



			Great, thank you!
Is there a way to message you to sort date/location. I am just north of Loughborough.
		
Click to expand...

see post number 2748 above


----------



## Blythwind (1 May 2016)

Thanks - I'm on my phone so the posts don't have numbers. I'll wait until I'm back at work to use a computer!


----------



## ROG (1 May 2016)

Blythwind said:



			Thanks - I'm on my phone so the posts don't have numbers. I'll wait until I'm back at work to use a computer!
		
Click to expand...

I have a spare email account = advanced.driving@live.co.uk


----------



## Chloeap (1 May 2016)

ROG said:



			As it is a rice it may not have one and as they are no longer trading it means you cannot get one
The total of the tyre load ratings are  now used as the trailer MAM = http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating


After finding the trailer MAM via the tyre load ratings you then add that number to the 2105 GVW and if it total more than 3500 you cannot tow it on a B licence
You can tow it with dad or another sat next to you providing .......

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


You really need a lightweight trailer by a company that is still trading so you can down plate it for B towing
		
Click to expand...


Brilliant thanks for that! 

The tire load rating is 79 so 437. 
Horse is 16.1 who i would weigh more than this.. Anyway of this being legal?


----------



## ROG (1 May 2016)

Chloeap said:



			Brilliant thanks for that! 

The tire load rating is 79 so 437. 
Horse is 16.1 who i would weigh more than this.. Anyway of this being legal?
		
Click to expand...

4 x 437 = 1748 MAM 

1748 + 2105 = 3853 = over the B towing limit of 3500


----------



## CarlyBiscuit (1 May 2016)

Hi, 
We've just bought a Ssangyong Rexton 2.7l manual 56 plate. I plan on buying a HB403 single trailer... 
I'm a bit confused about all the facts and figures but I'm pretty sure I won't be able to tow on a B licence, but please could you confirm for me?

So I think...
Kerb weight of car: 1864
Towing capacity: 3500
Trailer: 1600 MAM 
I think that's right...

So would I be able to tow in the meantime with my mum in the car who passed her test pre 97? As long as I have L plates? 

Thank you!


----------



## ROG (1 May 2016)

CarlyBiscuit said:



			Hi, 
We've just bought a Ssangyong Rexton 2.7l manual 56 plate. I plan on buying a HB403 single trailer... 
I'm a bit confused about all the facts and figures but I'm pretty sure I won't be able to tow on a B licence, but please could you confirm for me?

So I think...
Kerb weight of car: 1864
Towing capacity: 3500
Trailer: 1600 MAM 
I think that's right...

So would I be able to tow in the meantime with my mum in the car who passed her test pre 97? As long as I have L plates? 

Thank you!
		
Click to expand...

YES with MUM in car ....
*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving

As for the weights ..... I need the GVW of the vehicle which can be found on a weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame (top figure of the four on the plate) or listed as maximum permissible mass on the V5 keepers document

The total of the GVW (?) added to the trailer MAM (1600) must not total more than 3500 for B towing - the trailer MAM can be reduced by down plating but that is only practical to a point - down plating trailer to say 1100 when it weighs 800 empty would only leave 300 for the trailer load !


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## murphysmummy (2 May 2016)

Hi ROG

Just wondering if you can help me. I'm intending to take my B+E test shortly but in the meantime have the opportunity to get a HB505 for a bargain but I would need to pick it up from a fair way away. Could you let me know if I can tow it home empty using a '52 plate Toyota Hilux double cab?

Many thanks


----------



## ROG (2 May 2016)

murphysmummy said:



			Hi ROG

Just wondering if you can help me. I'm intending to take my B+E test shortly but in the meantime have the opportunity to get a HB505 for a bargain but I would need to pick it up from a fair way away. Could you let me know if I can tow it home empty using a '52 plate Toyota Hilux double cab?

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

Licences go on the plated weights not the actual weights so if the GVW (MAM) of the vehicle added to the MAM of the trailer total more than 3500 then you cannot legally tow it on a B licence

You can tow it under your B+E provisional/learner category so can you get someone with perhaps a pre 1997 licence to go with you ?
see post 2762 above


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## murphysmummy (2 May 2016)

Thanks ROG. The GVW is 2715 and the MAM of the 505 is 900 so I'm over by 115kgs!  Never mind- patience is a virtue and hopefully I'll find a bargain once I've passed the test.
Haven't got anyone pre-1997 to come with me I'm afraid but it's a great idea.

Thanks again.


----------



## ROG (2 May 2016)

murphysmummy said:



			Thanks ROG. The GVW is 2715 and the MAM of the 505 is 900 so I'm over by 115kgs!  Never mind- patience is a virtue and hopefully I'll find a bargain once I've passed the test.
Haven't got anyone pre-1997 to come with me I'm afraid but it's a great idea.

Thanks again.
		
Click to expand...

I think the MAM of the 505 is 2340 http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1063 so a total MAM of 5055 = well over the 3500 limit


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## Chloeap (2 May 2016)

ROG said:



			4 x 437 = 1748 MAM 

1748 + 2105 = 3853 = over the B towing limit of 3500
		
Click to expand...

Ahh that makes more sense! 
Think I will get the trailer as it is a bargain, practice towing as I have a few people who are able to sit with me then do my test once ready! 
Thank you very much for your help, it's made this all a bit clearer


----------



## ROG (2 May 2016)

Chloeap said:



			Ahh that makes more sense! 
Think I will get the trailer as it is a bargain, practice towing as I have a few people who are able to sit with me then do my test once ready! 
Thank you very much for your help, it's made this all a bit clearer
		
Click to expand...

If near Leicester I could help for free + expenses


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## Chloeap (2 May 2016)

Oh brilliant. I am 30 mins from Leicester! I think I am a little way off from doing my test so will have a practice with Dad as he taught me to drive and has towed a lot. I may well be in contact in a couple of months and take you up on that offer. Thank you


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## ROG (2 May 2016)

Chloeap said:



			Oh brilliant. I am 30 mins from Leicester! I think I am a little way off from doing my test so will have a practice with Dad as he taught me to drive and has towed a lot. I may well be in contact in a couple of months and take you up on that offer. Thank you
		
Click to expand...

Make a note of my spare email address - advanced.driving@live.co.uk

I am also an ex B+E and LGV instructor


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## MrsMakeup (7 May 2016)

Can I tow a Bateson Deauville with 2 horse, 15.2 and 16hh with a td4 Freelander,,please?


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## ROG (8 May 2016)

MrsMakeup said:



			Can I tow a Bateson Deauville with 2 horse, 15.2 and 16hh with a td4 Freelander,,please?
		
Click to expand...

What licence B or B+E ?

What are the weights such as
Freelander GVW + towing capacity
Trailer empty + MAM
Horses 
????


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## petsywetsy (8 May 2016)

My trailer doesn't have a label giving weights etc.  Its a lightweight Indespension Regent and I tow with a 2.00 4x4 diesel 170bhp Yeti.  One 14.2 pony only.

Does the lack of the label matter?  I am pretty sure that we are legal weightwise.


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## ROG (8 May 2016)

petsywetsy said:



			My trailer doesn't have a label giving weights etc.  Its a lightweight Indespension Regent and I tow with a 2.00 4x4 diesel 170bhp Yeti.  One 14.2 pony only.

Does the lack of the label matter?  I am pretty sure that we are legal weightwise.
		
Click to expand...

the total of the tyre load ratings will be the trailer MAM where there is no plate

What is the towing capacity of the yeti ?
Do you know roughly what the trailer weighs empty ?
What is the weight of the pony ?

Do you have a B+E licence ?


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## petsywetsy (9 May 2016)

I did research a while ago and weight wise, towing etc. appears fine.  I just wondered whether the actual lack of the plate is an offence?

I also do have the correct license - was a bit worried about the missing plate.

Thanks


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## ROG (9 May 2016)

petsywetsy said:



			I did research a while ago and weight wise, towing etc. appears fine.  I just wondered whether the actual lack of the plate is an offence?

I also do have the correct license - was a bit worried about the missing plate.

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Not a problem as many trailers are without plates and cannot be replaced if the manufacturer is no longer trading so the legal default of using the total of the tyre load ratings is used as the trailer MAM

I asked about licencing as many think they are legal on a B licence using actual weights instead of MAM weights


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## acorn92x (9 May 2016)

Could I tow an Ifor Williams HB403 (Unladen weight is 767kg) with a 2L Skoda Yeti (Auto with a kerb weight of 1530kg) with a 440kg pony on board on a B licence please? Am thinking of upgrading my car to this set up next year. Thank you!


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## ROG (9 May 2016)

acorn92x said:



			Could I tow an Ifor Williams HB403 (Unladen weight is 767kg) with a 2L Skoda Yeti (Auto with a kerb weight of 1530kg) with a 440kg pony on board on a B licence please? Am thinking of upgrading my car to this set up next year. Thank you!
		
Click to expand...

What we need is the GVW/MAM weights as licences use those and not actual weights such as the ones you have supplied

Unless already down plated the 403 is 1600 MAM and the Yeti is roughly between 2000 and 2150 GVW depending on exact model in this list = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/data/skoda/yeti/gross-vehicle-weight/

Assuming the GVW is 2000 along with a MAM of 1600 = 3600 which is over the 3500 B licence tow limit

Down plating the trailer from 1600 to 1300 via contact with IW would leave a max load for the trailer of 533kg so plenty for a 440 pony 
At 1300 MAM you could have a YETI at 2200 GVW


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## acorn92x (9 May 2016)

Thanks ROG, that's great, very pleased to hear that this combo would be possible! The Yeti I am looking at has a MAM of 2000kg (Just had a Google!) so would obviously consider down plating as this would be cheaper than doing my B+E. I only have one pony so towing another is not an issue and I would rather just have the single trailer. Thank you


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## ROG (9 May 2016)

acorn92x said:



			Thanks ROG, that's great, very pleased to hear that this combo would be possible! The Yeti I am looking at has a MAM of 2000kg (Just had a Google!) so would obviously consider down plating as this would be cheaper than doing my B+E. I only have one pony so towing another is not an issue. Thank you 

Click to expand...

IW charge about £50 for down plating

You call IW
You remove plate
You send plate + money to IW
IW send you new plate
You fit new plate

Needs drill + pop rivets/gun


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## acorn92x (9 May 2016)

ROG said:



			IW charge about £50 for down plating

You call IW
You remove plate
You send plate + money to IW
IW send you new plate
You fit new plate

Needs drill + pop rivets/gun
		
Click to expand...

You're a star - thank you!


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## Archie07 (10 May 2016)

What are my choice of small 4x4's if I was looking to tow a 575kg pony in a single trailer (say a HB401/ HB403) on a B licence?

What would be an economical car that would do the job based on the above? Would want the smallest 4x4 possible. Any recommendations please?


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## ROG (10 May 2016)

Archie07 said:



			What are my choice of small 4x4's if I was looking to tow a 575kg pony in a single trailer (say a HB401/ HB403) on a B licence?

What would be an economical car that would do the job based on the above? Would want the smallest 4x4 possible. Any recommendations please?
		
Click to expand...

The only one recommendation I know of is the Skoda Octavia 4x4 with a GVW of 1998 and a 2000 towing capacity
With that vehicle and down plating the trailer from 1600 to 1500 would leave a max trailer load of 720 as it weighs 780 empty


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## Archie07 (10 May 2016)

Thanks for the above ROG!

Another question out of interest could you tow a HB401/HB403 single trailer with a Ford Transit 85T280 S FWD on a B licence (again pony around 550kgs)...


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## ROG (10 May 2016)

Archie07 said:



			Thanks for the above ROG!

Another question out of interest could you tow a HB401/HB403 single trailer with a Ford Transit 85T280 S FWD on a B licence (again pony around 550kgs)...
		
Click to expand...

What is the GVW and towing capacity of the transit ?


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## Archie07 (10 May 2016)

ROG said:



			What is the GVW and towing capacity of the transit ?
		
Click to expand...

From what I can find I think these figures are correct: 

GVW - 2800kg
Towing Capacity - 3500kg
Pony - 550kg
Trailer - HB403
B Licence

Thanks so much!


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## ROG (10 May 2016)

Archie07 said:



			From what I can find I think these figures are correct: 

GVW - 2800kg
Towing Capacity - 3500kg
Pony - 550kg
Trailer - HB403
B Licence

Thanks so much!
		
Click to expand...

The max you can tow on a B licence where the vehicle has a GVW of 2800 is a trailer with a max plated MAM of 750 - the 401/3 weighs more than that empty !


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## Archie07 (10 May 2016)

ROG said:



			What is the GVW and towing capacity of the transit ?
		
Click to expand...




ROG said:



			The max you can tow on a B licence where the vehicle has a GVW of 2800 is a trailer with a max plated MAM of 750 - the 401/3 weighs more than that empty !
		
Click to expand...

So even if the van was empty (can't find or workout what unladen weight is) it's still not possible? Dam. 

Would it be possible with a B+E licence?


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## ROG (10 May 2016)

Archie07 said:



			So even if the van was empty (can't find or workout what unladen weight is) it's still not possible? Dam. 

Would it be possible with a B+E licence?
		
Click to expand...

B+E possible but would need to know the towing capacity allowed which should be in handbook or on V5 doc

Licencing for all B and C categories goes on plated weights not actual weights until the number of seats gets to 10 then it comes into PCV licencing


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## swright (10 May 2016)

Hi Rog,

As the resident towing law expert, can you check I've got this right? 

I'm looking to buy an estate car capable of towing an ifor 401 single horse trailer. 

Both my OH and me like the Audi A4 Avant 2.0 tdi SE estate. Can we both legally tow on a B licence with the below weights? 

Audi GVW- 2100kgs
Audi unladen - 1480kgs
Towing capacity - 1600kgs
Giving a legal trailer MAM of 1400kgs?? If downplated. 

The 401's only weight about 770kgs empty so leaves me 630kgs for my 15.1 horse (his last trip to horsey weightwatchers weighbridge showed him at a healthy 450kgs)

is that correct and all legal on my B licence? 

Hope I've managed to get my head around it! 

Thanks!


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## ROG (10 May 2016)

swright said:



			Hi Rog,

As the resident towing law expert, can you check I've got this right? 

I'm looking to buy an estate car capable of towing an ifor 401 single horse trailer. 

Both my OH and me like the Audi A4 Avant 2.0 tdi SE estate. Can we both legally tow on a B licence with the below weights? 

Audi GVW- 2100kgs
Audi unladen - 1480kgs
Towing capacity - 1600kgs
Giving a legal trailer MAM of 1400kgs?? If downplated. 

The 401's only weight about 770kgs empty so leaves me 630kgs for my 15.1 horse (his last trip to horsey weightwatchers weighbridge showed him at a healthy 450kgs)

is that correct and all legal on my B licence? 

Hope I've managed to get my head around it! 

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

You have indeed got it all legally correct = well done


----------



## swright (10 May 2016)

Thanks for your expertise Rog!


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## Skinnyminny (13 May 2016)

licence they hold - B+E
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1405kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 1820kg
4 - Towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 1500kg 
      GTW - 3370kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 1600kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 675kg

Ponies - 400kg and 220kg respectively, usually only used for the 400kg not both.

Am I legal/safe please ROG?

And am I correct in thinking that I would have to downplated the trailer to allow my boyfriend to drive it on a B license?

Thank you!


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## ROG (13 May 2016)

Skinnyminny said:



			licence they hold - B+E
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1405kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 1820kg
4 - Towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 1500kg 
      GTW - 3370kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 1600kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 675kg

Ponies - 400kg and 220kg respectively, usually only used for the 400kg not both.

Am I legal/safe please ROG?

And am I correct in thinking that I would have to downplated the trailer to allow my boyfriend to drive it on a B license?

Thank you!
		
Click to expand...

BF to drive does NOT need trailer down plating as 1820 + 1600 = 3420 so under the B licence limit of 3500

Max load for the trailer is 825 according to the empty weight of 675 stated but that seems to low ...... if its a HB 401/3 then its 780 empty
1500 - 675 = 825


Bit odd that GTW 3370 minus GVW 1820 = 1550 and towing capacity is only stated at 1500 because it is legally 1550 so you can load 875 into the trailer


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## Skinnyminny (13 May 2016)

Thank you SO much! Super speedy response!

It's a Bateson Derby, which is specifically designed to be light enough to tow with a car. It's a fibreglass trailer, rear unload only.

So glad I'm legal and safe. Have been absolutely attacked by the big 4x4 brigade and I was sure that it was all kosher.


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## ROG (13 May 2016)

Skinnyminny said:



			Thank you SO much! Super speedy response!

It's a Bateson Derby, which is specifically designed to be light enough to tow with a car. It's a fibreglass trailer, rear unload only.

So glad I'm legal and safe. Have been absolutely attacked by the big 4x4 brigade and I was sure that it was all kosher.
		
Click to expand...

You certain its 1600 and not 1700 MAM as all the ones I have come across have been 1700 ????????????

Is your vehicle a KIA CEED ?


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## Skinnyminny (13 May 2016)

Many apologies, it is 1700MAM, I meant to type would we need to downplate it to 1600MAM for the B license - trying to do too many numbers at once!

By the looks of it we would need to downplate but only to 1680kg is that correct?


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## ROG (13 May 2016)

Skinnyminny said:



			Many apologies, it is 1700MAM, I meant to type would we need to downplate it to 1600MAM for the B license - trying to do too many numbers at once!

By the looks of it we would need to downplate but only to 1680kg is that correct?
		
Click to expand...

Correct = smile

As you only need to load a max of say 725 into it then I would down plate to 1400 so that if I got a vehicle in the future with a GVW max 2100 then it would not need to be down plated again


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## Skinnyminny (13 May 2016)

I have a VW golf  

Would definitely be a good idea to downplate as you say, hadn't thought about that.


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## ROG (13 May 2016)

Skinnyminny said:



			I have a VW golf  

Would definitely be a good idea to downplate as you say, hadn't thought about that.
		
Click to expand...

Golf is probably about 2000 kg GVW ?
What towing limit does the golf have ?


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## Skinnyminny (13 May 2016)

Plated GVW is 1820kg, tow limit is 1500kg (all other weights are in my original post)

Not sure why the GTW - GVW has that 50kg shortfall though, will check again tomorrow.


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## ROG (13 May 2016)

Skinnyminny said:



			Plated GVW is 1820kg, tow limit is 1500kg (all other weights are in my original post)

Not sure why the GTW - GVW has that 50kg shortfall though, will check again tomorrow.
		
Click to expand...

Misread post - thought you had a golf as well as another vehicle = dopey me !


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## Skinnyminny (13 May 2016)

It is Friday night! Thank you so much for prompt replies and help with such a complicated area. There needs to be some kind of website where you plug in the numbers and it just tells you!


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## rosieb82 (16 May 2016)

I hope you can help. I hold a post 97 b license. I have a 57 plate Nissan xtrail adventure expedition 2 litre diesel automatic. I have tried to find out all the necessary weights but I'm being useless! I'm hoping to tow an Ifor Williams 403 which has been replated at 1300kg and will be carrying a pony weighing 400kg. Is this legal and safe??? Thanks in advance.


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## ROG (16 May 2016)

rosieb82 said:



			I hope you can help. I hold a post 97 b license. I have a 57 plate Nissan xtrail adventure expedition 2 litre diesel automatic. I have tried to find out all the necessary weights but I'm being useless! I'm hoping to tow an Ifor Williams 403 which has been replated at 1300kg and will be carrying a pony weighing 400kg. Is this legal and safe??? Thanks in advance.
		
Click to expand...

If the GVW of the Xtrail is 2200 kg or less then its legal on a B licence and you can load a max of 513 into the trailer

To find the vehicle GVW -
Top of 4 numbers on the weight plate usually hidden under bonnet or in a door frame
The maximum permissible mass on the V5 keepers form


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## rosieb82 (16 May 2016)

Thanks Rog, the top number is 2170 so looks like I'm ok. Grateful for your help it all bamboozled me!


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## ROG (16 May 2016)

rosieb82 said:



			Thanks Rog, the top number is 2170 so looks like I'm ok. Grateful for your help it all bamboozled me!
		
Click to expand...

Thats why I am here

2170 + 1300 = 3470 so not more than the 3500 total plated limit


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## Archie07 (17 May 2016)

B Licence

Ford Transit 85 280

Kerb weight (unladen back but includes full tank of fuel) - 1699kg
GVW (laden, although the van would always be unladen when towing) - 2800kg
Payload - 1101kg
Towing weight/ GTM - 3500kg

Trailer weight - 770kg
Trailer MAM - 1600kg
Pony - 550kg


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## ROG (17 May 2016)

Archie07 said:



			B Licence

Ford Transit 85 280

Kerb weight (unladen back but includes full tank of fuel) - 1699kg
GVW (laden, although the van would always be empty when towing so kerb weight above) - 2800kg
Payload - 1101kg
Trailer weight - 770kg
Trailer MAM - 1600kg
Pony - 550kg
		
Click to expand...

Towing it loaded or empty makes no difference for licence rules as licences go on the max of the plated max weights such as GVW & MAM

The max trailer you can tow on a B licence with a vehicle which has a GVW of 2800 is 750 kg MAM

What you need is a vehicle with a max GVW of 2150 so you can down plate the trailer to 1350 leaving a trailer max trailer load of 580


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## winstonator (18 May 2016)

Orignal post is #2741 for my vehicle and trailer details

Hi ROG

I was hoping you could help with a confusion I have on two things (my details are in the menioned quote).

1.  Until today I havent heard of anyone mention the Maximum Rear Axle Weight when talking about pulling trailers.  My vehicle's max rear axel weight I have just found out is 1100kg.  My trailer and its cargo is approx 1217kg.  Does this infact mean that I'm loading more on my real axle than the car can handle?  If so, how vital is this rule, how flexible is the weight allowance, because I would presume that if it has not been mentioned in DVLA's legal limitations etc then its more of a guideline?  What effect will pulling the extra 150ish kgs have my driving safety? 

2.  For the purposes of tyre pressure on my vehicle (laden and unladen) - does the trailer and its cargo count as fully laden weight and therefore my pressure needs to be modified to fully laden?  Or does fully laden only count with cargo 'inside' my vehicle, and not weight pulling at the back of my vehicle?  At present im not sure which tyre pressure to use - fully laden or unladen.

Many thanks


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## ROG (18 May 2016)

winstonator said:



			Orignal post is #2741 for my vehicle and trailer details

Hi ROG

I was hoping you could help with a confusion I have on two things (my details are in the menioned quote).

1.  Until today I havent heard of anyone mention the Maximum Rear Axle Weight when talking about pulling trailers.  My vehicle's max rear axel weight I have just found out is 1100kg.  My trailer and its cargo is approx 1217kg.  Does this infact mean that I'm loading more on my real axle than the car can handle?  If so, how vital is this rule, how flexible is the weight allowance, because I would presume that if it has not been mentioned in DVLA's legal limitations etc then its more of a guideline?  What effect will pulling the extra 150ish kgs have my driving safety? 

2.  For the purposes of tyre pressure on my vehicle (laden and unladen) - does the trailer and its cargo count as fully laden weight and therefore my pressure needs to be modified to fully laden?  Or does fully laden only count with cargo 'inside' my vehicle, and not weight pulling at the back of my vehicle?  At present im not sure which tyre pressure to use - fully laden or unladen.

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

1 - how you load the trailer will make a difference to what weight is being put on the rear axle - the towbar max load will usually sort that out

2 - same with tyre pressures - no need to increase or decrease for trailer only for vehicle if recommended by manufacturer


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## winstonator (20 May 2016)

ROG said:



			1 - how you load the trailer will make a difference to what weight is being put on the rear axle - the towbar max load will usually sort that out

2 - same with tyre pressures - no need to increase or decrease for trailer only for vehicle if recommended by manufacturer
		
Click to expand...

Hi ROG 

Sorry I should have clarified I am referring to my towing vehicle tyre pressure. Does towing place my vehicle in the fully laden classification?  Or does fully laden only count for items actually inside the vehicle, not items being pulled by the vehicle? 

Cheers


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## ROG (20 May 2016)

winstonator said:



			Hi ROG 

Sorry I should have clarified I am referring to my towing vehicle tyre pressure. Does towing place my vehicle in the fully laden classification?  Or does fully laden only count for items actually inside the vehicle, not items being pulled by the vehicle? 

Cheers
		
Click to expand...

Load in the vehicle refers to vehicle tyre pressure 
towing does not affect vehicle tyre pressure


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## frankyfroo (21 May 2016)

Hi Rog

I'm totally new to forums and am not sure I'm doing this right but I hope you can help me!

I wish to confirm the legality of my husband and myself towing a horse trailer on our current driving licence. We both hold B licences and passed our tests in 2005. I am unsure about the wording on the DVLA site -

"You can: tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg"

I took this to understand that the MAM of the car and the MAM of the trailer combined must be under 3500kg and contacted my trailer manufacturer to request to downplate my trailer so that it fell below this limit. On speaking to my trailer manufacturer (Bateson) they told me that the law had changed and now, as long as the combined weight of the car and trailer are below 3500kg when in use that is now legal....please could you confirm if this is now the case?

The details of our trailer and car would be:

Bateson Derby
Unladen - 650
MGW - 1700

Kia Sportage 2016 1.6 Basic
GWL - 1895
Max Kerb Weight - 1546
Min Kerb Weight - 1454

Horse weight - 450

Many thanks for your time.

Frankly


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## ROG (21 May 2016)

frankyfroo said:



			Hi Rog

I'm totally new to forums and am not sure I'm doing this right but I hope you can help me!

I wish to confirm the legality of my husband and myself towing a horse trailer on our current driving licence. We both hold B licences and passed our tests in 2005. I am unsure about the wording on the DVLA site -

"You can: tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg"

I took this to understand that the MAM of the car and the MAM of the trailer combined must be under 3500kg and contacted my trailer manufacturer to request to downplate my trailer so that it fell below this limit. On speaking to my trailer manufacturer (Bateson) they told me that the law had changed and now, as long as the combined weight of the car and trailer are below 3500kg when in use that is now legal....please could you confirm if this is now the case?

The details of our trailer and car would be:

Bateson Derby
Unladen - 650
MGW - 1700

Kia Sportage 2016 1.6 Basic
GWL - 1895
Max Kerb Weight - 1546
Min Kerb Weight - 1454

Horse weight - 450

Many thanks for your time.

Frankly
		
Click to expand...

I think you mean GVW 1895 kg for sportage ????
That being correct then 1895 + 1700 = 3595 so over the 3500 limit for B towing BUT there is an easy solution .....

Contact Bateson trailers 0161 426 0500 and get trailer down plated from 1700 to 1600* 
You remove plate
You send plate and about £10 to Bateson
Bateson send you new plate
You fit new plate
Need a drill and a pop rivet gun

*If it was me I would down plate to 1300 so that if you get a vehicle in the future with a GVW of 2200 or less then it will not need to be down plated again

At 1300 it will leave at least 600 for the trailer load


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## frankyfroo (21 May 2016)

Hi ROG

Thank you for such a quick reply and the helpful info. Yes I meant GVW sorry - so many acronyms! 

I have been following the info on this thread for a while and so did call Bateson the other day. I was told that there was no need to downplate as the law has now changed regarding this. I just wondered if you'd come across this yet? I have contacted the DVLA to clarify too as I don't want to downplate unnecessarily. Bateson told me that the law was brought in to make it easier to quickly check the legality of commercial vehicles and that they hadn't anticipated the issues this would cause (Bateson said they have loads of requests for downplating weekly) and that this has now changed...

On the DVLA site it has different wording for those who hold a licence from 2013 than those who hold an older licence but I'm unclear what the very subtle wording really means so I've asked them to clarify! I doubt I'll hear back any time soon!

I did ask how much downplating would be etc but he was insistent that I didn't need to so now I'm really confused!

Thanks

Francesca


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## ROG (21 May 2016)

frankyfroo said:



			Hi ROG

Thank you for such a quick reply and the helpful info. Yes I meant GVW sorry - so many acronyms! 

I have been following the info on this thread for a while and so did call Bateson the other day. I was told that there was no need to downplate as the law has now changed regarding this. I just wondered if you'd come across this yet? I have contacted the DVLA to clarify too as I don't want to downplate unnecessarily. Bateson told me that the law was brought in to make it easier to quickly check the legality of commercial vehicles and that they hadn't anticipated the issues this would cause (Bateson said they have loads of requests for downplating weekly) and that this has now changed...

On the DVLA site it has different wording for those who hold a licence from 2013 than those who hold an older licence but I'm unclear what the very subtle wording really means so I've asked them to clarify! I doubt I'll hear back any time soon!

I did ask how much downplating would be etc but he was insistent that I didn't need to so now I'm really confused!

Thanks

Francesca
		
Click to expand...

Dunno who you spoke to at Bateson but if they said the law had changed then they are mistaken

Who did you speak to ?????????????

The Gov sites have kept the old laws from 1997 to 2013 on the internet when there is no need to as the new 2013 laws are the same for all B licence drivers no matter when they got a B licence

Slight difference for B+E as after 2013 they are restricted to a trailer with a max MAM of 3500 but as that affected almost nobody then its not really worth mentioning


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## frankyfroo (21 May 2016)

I'm not sure - he was northern and very nice but was quite convinced I didn't need to downplate! He said if I were to be pulled over by police for any reason and they questioned it I could say take me to a weigh bridge and that would prove I wasn't over the 3500. He said people want to chop and change who is driving and people have to downplate unnecessarily when sharing a trailer and then change plates etc so it has now changed. He was the only one in that day but he did seem quite well informed and knew about why I was asking for the downplating etc and could have just taken my tenner I suppose...! I'm gunna call back next week to double check so I'll let you know the result of Bateson and the DVLA.

Thanks for your help 

Francesca


----------



## ROG (21 May 2016)

frankyfroo said:



			I'm not sure - he was northern and very nice but was quite convinced I didn't need to downplate! He said if I were to be pulled over by police for any reason and they questioned it I could say take me to a weigh bridge and that would prove I wasn't over the 3500. He said people want to chop and change who is driving and people have to downplate unnecessarily when sharing a trailer and then change plates etc so it has now changed. He was the only one in that day but he did seem quite well informed and knew about why I was asking for the downplating etc and could have just taken my tenner I suppose...! I'm gunna call back next week to double check so I'll let you know the result of Bateson and the DVLA.

Thanks for your help 

Francesca
		
Click to expand...

I will call them next week to find out where there got bogus info from on B licencing
I reckon they were talking about the laws on B+E where some police forces have recently been saying, incorrectly, that a trailer cannot be plated more than a towing capacity


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## frankyfroo (21 May 2016)

He may well have been! It was quite confusing as I was very clear why I needed to downplate as had done my research. I'd be interested to see what they say to you. I'd rather be safe than sorry so I'd happily pay the tenner!

Thanks again

Francesca


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## Echo24 (22 May 2016)

1 B licence
2 Unladen 1804kg
3 GVW 2485kg
4 Unbraked 750kg Braked 2000kg
5 MAM 1600kg
6 Unladen weight 767kg

I suspect it is illegal but would this be legal on a B+E licence? Thanks!


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## ROG (22 May 2016)

Echo24 said:



			1 B licence
2 Unladen 1804kg
3 GVW 2485kg
4 Unbraked 750kg Braked 2000kg
5 MAM 1600kg
6 Unladen weight 767kg

I suspect it is illegal but would this be legal on a B+E licence? Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

You are correct - B+E needed

Max trailer MAM with that vehicle on a B licence is 1015 kg and if you did down plate it to 1015 that would only leave a max trailer load of 248 kg = ok maybe for a shetland pony

you can use that set up under B+E learner rules

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## Echo24 (22 May 2016)

Thanks ROG! Thought so. Mum and dad live too far away so I will look into doing a towing test as I'll be out on my own. Thanks again!


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## abbijay (27 May 2016)

Hi ROG, 
I'm getting a new company car soon and the most capable tow vehicle on there is a Ford Kuga 2.0 diesel with a towing limit of 1900kgs. My trailer weighs 1100kg (Richardson Supreme Ultra but I've taken the partition out - I don't know if that weight is with or without the partition!) and my horse weigh bridged last year at 770kg although he has probably put a little weight on since then (he was very poorly at the time) so I'm assuming 800kg. 
Would it be legal to tow in this combination or had I better work on persuading the hubby to buy me a different towing vehicle?
I have my B+E already! 
Thanks.


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## ROG (27 May 2016)

abbijay said:



			Hi ROG, 
I'm getting a new company car soon and the most capable tow vehicle on there is a Ford Kuga 2.0 diesel with a towing limit of 1900kgs. My trailer weighs 1100kg (Richardson Supreme Ultra but I've taken the partition out - I don't know if that weight is with or without the partition!) and my horse weigh bridged last year at 770kg although he has probably put a little weight on since then (he was very poorly at the time) so I'm assuming 800kg. 
Would it be legal to tow in this combination? 
I have my B+E already! 
Thanks.
		
Click to expand...

Gonna be tight weight wise so the only real way to know is to load it with horse and take directly to weighbridge which you can legally do even if over as long as you go directly to it and back to the place you loaded the trailer


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## abbijay (27 May 2016)

ROG said:



			Gonna be tight weight wise so the only real way to know is to load it with horse and take directly to weighbridge which you can legally do even if over as long as you go directly to it and back to the place you loaded the trailer
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ROG!


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## ROG (30 May 2016)

Bank holiday bump


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## Cobbychic (4 June 2016)

What do the numbers on the v plate mean? Confused


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## Cobbychic (4 June 2016)

would need -
1 - B - passed test in 99
2 - Not sure? Where is this info as not on log book 
3 - Mam of car 2050
4 - GTW 4050
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer 2000
6 - 895


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## Cobbychic (4 June 2016)

Spoken to Equitrek and they said even if I down rated my trailer I still wouldn't be legal due to the 50% kerb rate of vehicle. Is this true?


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## ROG (4 June 2016)

Cobbychic said:



			What do the numbers on the v plate mean? Confused
		
Click to expand...

The four numbers are always in this order
top = GVW = the max the vehicle can weigh when fully loaded 
second from top = GTW = the max the vehicle and trailer can be when weighed together
third from top = front axle max weight
bottom = rear axle max weight 




Cobbychic said:



			would need -
1 - B - passed test in 99
2 - Not sure? Where is this info as not on log book 
3 - Mam of car 2050
4 - GTW 4050
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer 2000
6 - 895
		
Click to expand...

Do not worry about number 2 as the law for that has been revoked/scrapped

GVW = 2050 = top figure on plate
MAM of trailer 2000
TOTAL MAM = 4050 so over the B towing 3500 limit

SOLUTION = contact trailer manufacturer and down plate trailer from 2000 to 1450 BUT that will only leave a max of 555 which can be loaded into the trailer (1450-895=555)


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## ROG (4 June 2016)

Cobbychic said:



			Spoken to Equitrek and they said even if I down rated my trailer I still wouldn't be legal due to the 50% kerb rate of vehicle. Is this true?
		
Click to expand...

NO = law revoked on 19/01/2013 and there was never a 50% rule before that

There is a 50% law which states that an UNBRAKED trailer cannot be more than half of kerb/unladen/empty weight of vehicle
All trailers over 750 kg MAM must be braked by law


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## Cobbychic (4 June 2016)

I'm just wondering if I should take trailer test??? Has anyone taken just the test straight off the bat?


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## ROG (4 June 2016)

Cobbychic said:



			I'm just wondering if I should take trailer test??? Has anyone taken just the test straight off the bat?
		
Click to expand...

If you can drive in the way that the DVSA want you to drive as well as uncouple/up and reverse the DVSA way along with having a vehicle and trailer which conforms to DVSA test standards ........ then YES

Post number 2000 has the full info


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## Clannad48 (6 June 2016)

Hi ROG, I think I already know the answer for this but here goes anyway

Daughter driving for 6 years so just a B licence

Car -  Kia Sorento Automatic with a GVW of 2600kg
Trailer Ifor Williams HB505 with an unladen weight of 905kg
Horse - 600kg max

Opinions please

I currently do the towing with a pre 1997 licence and want her to do her test but the cost of it is very high if you include the lessons as well.


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## ROG (6 June 2016)

Clannad48 said:



			Hi ROG, I think I already know the answer for this but here goes anyway

Daughter driving for 6 years so just a B licence

Car -  Kia Sorento Automatic with a GVW of 2600kg
Trailer Ifor Williams HB505 with an unladen weight of 905kg
Horse - 600kg max

Opinions please

I currently do the towing with a pre 1997 licence and want her to do her test but the cost of it is very high if you include the lessons as well.
		
Click to expand...

505 has a MAM of 2340 so the total MAM = 4950 .... well over the B towing limit of 3500 !

Daughter can drive it with you supervising under her current B+E provisional learner entitlement = I would get her to do that all the time as its great free practice

As I have not posted this lot for a while ............

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
*VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions* = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqw6Ua3kmFc&feature=related - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
*VIDEO - Reversing Exercise* = http://www.drivesafedriving.co.uk/b_e_rev_movie.htm - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*DSA REVERSING TEST AREA DIAGRAM* = https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._PCV_BE_manoeuvring_exercise_area_diagram.pdf 
*VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up* = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao_5KOe8dGg&feature=related - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

The trailer must now be loaded with 600 kgs of sand bags or a 1000 kgs water IBC for the test so most companies are now training with that weight in the trailer = https://www.gov.uk/new-laden-testing-rules-for-driving-test-vehicles 

*Well explained here* = http://www.trailertraining-wales.co.uk/test.html 

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos

This is interesting BUT NOT RECOMMENDED  a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test that means you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself. 
*DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS* =  http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_4022521 
Remember that the required 600 kgs of sand bags or 1 x 1000 IBC filled with water will be required in the trailer and the load must be secure.

ADD - with B manual and doing BE in auto only gets BE auto not manual


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## Clannad48 (6 June 2016)

Thanks for the prompt reply ROG, you have confirmed my figures. My daughter can only drive an automatic anyway (long story) so I need to rethink things as there are a couple of occasions coming up when I will not be available to tow.


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## ROG (6 June 2016)

Clannad48 said:



			Thanks for the prompt reply ROG, you have confirmed my figures. My daughter can only drive an automatic anyway (long story) so I need to rethink things as there are a couple of occasions coming up when I will not be available to tow.
		
Click to expand...

Any other driver who can comply with the rules above can supervise such as a 75 year old with no insurance needed if they are not going to be driving


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## Clannad48 (6 June 2016)

ROG, yes but finding someone who will accompany my daughter is another matter - she competes at endurance and we are often away all day and travel over 100 miles each way sometimes. I would also not consider her going with someone who wasn't insured to drive as if (God Forbid) she had an injury there would be no way of her getting herself, trailer and/or the horse back  The only people who would consider going with her do not have the B+E so I will probably have to sort out her taking her test.  She does nag me to get another lorry but just can't afford it.

So the master plan is either a. rob a bank, b. win the lottery, c. sell a kidney or other organ to pay for the trailer test


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## ROG (6 June 2016)

Clannad48 said:



			So the master plan is either a. rob a bank, .............. to pay for the trailer test
		
Click to expand...

Not Barclays .... TOO RISKY !!


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## jenni999 (7 June 2016)

So, firstly apologies as I suspect this has been asked and answered earlier in the thread. But I need to know quickly. 

I hold a B+E, have a Landcruiser SWB which tows 2800kg (I have checked the VIN plate).  If I want to tow an Equitrek with a gross weight of 3500kg, am I illegal regardless of whether I only have one horse in it - which would bring me within my gross towing capacity of 2800kg?  Equitrek told me I would be illegal even towing empty as I needed to be able to tow 3500kg.  Sounds daft but I assume they know the law?   

I see lots of people with Freelanders (or new Disco Sport) which has a gross towing capacity of 2000 towing 505's which have a gross weight of 2600kg.  Are they illegal even before they start loading up?  

Confusion reigns here......  Please help.


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## ROG (7 June 2016)

jenni999 said:



			So, firstly apologies as I suspect this has been asked and answered earlier in the thread. But I need to know quickly. 

I hold a B+E, have a Landcruiser SWB which tows 2800kg (I have checked the VIN plate).  If I want to tow an Equitrek with a gross weight of 3500kg, am I illegal regardless of whether I only have one horse in it - which would bring me within my gross towing capacity of 2800kg?  Equitrek told me I would be illegal even towing empty as I needed to be able to tow 3500kg.  Sounds daft but I assume they know the law?   

I see lots of people with Freelanders (or new Disco Sport) which has a gross towing capacity of 2000 towing 505's which have a gross weight of 2600kg.  Are they illegal even before they start loading up?  

Confusion reigns here......  Please help.
		
Click to expand...

There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity or GTW listed for the vehicle must be able to accommodate the plated MAM of the trailer or the combined GVW/MAM of the vehicle and trailer

This is 100% legal with a B+E licence - 
Vehicle GVW 2700, GTW 5500 and towing capacity 2800 towing a trailer plated at 3500 which weighs 1000 empty with a load in it weighing 1800


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## jenni999 (8 June 2016)

ROG said:



			There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity or GTW listed for the vehicle must be able to accommodate the plated MAM of the trailer or the combined GVW/MAM of the vehicle and trailer

This is 100% legal with a B+E licence - 
Vehicle GVW 2700, GTW 5500 and towing capacity 2800 towing a trailer plated at 3500 which weighs 1000 empty with a load in it weighing 1800
		
Click to expand...

Thanks.  Bateson trailers said the same, so I trust Equitrek even less now !


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## Hewkat (9 June 2016)

Hi

My facts and figures are as follows:

1. B&E license
2. Unladen vehicle weight - 1770 kg
3. GVW of towing weight - 2245 kg
4. Towing capacity of vehicle - Braked towing weight - 1800 kg
5. MAM of trailer - 2600kg (is this the maximum fully loaded weight?)
6. Unladen trailer weight - 1020kg

Can you tell me if this is legal? So much conflicting advice online!

I will be carrying catering equipment So much less than the weight of a horse.

Also what if the trailer is not plated?

Many thanks

Kat


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## Hewkat (10 June 2016)

Having problems posting so apologies if this posts twice! 

My stats are as follows:

1. B&E license
2. Empty weight of vehicle - 1,770 kg
3. Fully laden vehicle weight - 2,245 kg 
4. Towing capacity of vehicle - 1,800 kg
5. I haven't bought the trailer yet but it is a Rice Beaufort Double - I think it may be unplated so load rating based on my current tyres would be 2,320 kg
If it is plated then from stats I've got from the Rice website I estimate the MM would be 2,600 kg
6. Unladen trailer weight - 1,020 kg

Would this be legal? 

Really struggling to get clear guidance from anywhere so your advice would be really appreciated.

Thanks

Kat


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## Kacey88 (10 June 2016)

Does anyone tow with a Hyundai Santa Fe on a B license? I'm thinking of getting one, and an Ifor Williams 401. Maybe someone could help me finish this:

1. B
2. Empty weight of vehicle - 1,890kg
3. Fully laden vehicle weight - ?
4. Towing capacity of vehicle - 2200kg
5. MAM of trailer - 1600kg (could be downplated?)
6. Unladen trailer weight - 770kg 

Could this work? I haven't got the horse yet, but looking at 14.2hh - 15.1hh so should be fine in a single.


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## ROG (10 June 2016)

Kacey88 said:



			Does anyone tow with a Hyundai Santa Fe on a B license? I'm thinking of getting one, and an Ifor Williams 401. Maybe someone could help me finish this:

1. B
2. Empty weight of vehicle - 1,890kg
3. Fully laden vehicle weight - ?
4. Towing capacity of vehicle - 2200kg
5. MAM of trailer - 1600kg (could be downplated?)
6. Unladen trailer weight - 770kg 

Could this work? I haven't got the horse yet, but looking at 14.2hh - 15.1hh so should be fine in a single.
		
Click to expand...

Number 3 figure for GVW is crucial but I can GUESS roughly what it might be ...... around 2500 kg ????????????

Using that 2500 GVW figure guess the trailer would need down plating from 1600 to 1000 leaving only 230 kg for the trailer load

Solution = need a vehicle with a lower GVW


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## ROG (10 June 2016)

Hewkat said:



			Having problems posting so apologies if this posts twice! 

My stats are as follows:

1. B&E license
2. Empty weight of vehicle - 1,770 kg
3. Fully laden vehicle weight - 2,245 kg 
4. Towing capacity of vehicle - 1,800 kg
5. I haven't bought the trailer yet but it is a Rice Beaufort Double - I think it may be unplated so load rating based on my current tyres would be 2,320 kg
If it is plated then from stats I've got from the Rice website I estimate the MM would be 2,600 kg
6. Unladen trailer weight - 1,020 kg

Would this be legal? 

Really struggling to get clear guidance from anywhere so your advice would be really appreciated.

Thanks

Kat
		
Click to expand...

Yes it is legal

You can load a max of 780 kg into the trailer (1800-1020=780)


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## Kacey88 (10 June 2016)

ROG said:



			Number 3 figure for GVW is crucial but I can GUESS roughly what it might be ...... around 2500 kg ????????????

Using that 2500 GVW figure guess the trailer would need down plating from 1600 to 1000 leaving only 230 kg for the trailer load

Solution = need a vehicle with a lower GVW
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ROG back to the drawing board. How do you get the GVW anyway?


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## ROG (10 June 2016)

Kacey88 said:



			How do you get the GVW anyway?
		
Click to expand...

Top figure of the four on the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame OR the max permissible mass figure on the V5 keepers doc


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## Hewkat (10 June 2016)

Excellent thank you. I thought it would be ok but the advice is so confusing I wanted to ask someone who would be able to give a clear answer. &#55357;&#56832;


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## henmother (14 June 2016)

Dear Rog , 
Probably an unusual request but , do you think it's possible for a wheelchair user to ever pass the trailer test ?


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## ROG (15 June 2016)

henmother said:



			Dear Rog , 
Probably an unusual request but , do you think it's possible for a wheelchair user to ever pass the trailer test ?
		
Click to expand...

http://www.howetotow.com/roll-of-honour - look at top of March 2016

http://www.howetotow.com/ = March 2016 was a very good month for test passes. We also had Natalie our first B+E pass for a wheel chair user with modified hand controls!!


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## henmother (15 June 2016)

Wow , thanks for that Rog . I had resigned myself to having to pull out a small fortune for a little box conversion . This is very exciting , thankyou . Now to find the very lightest/easiest of trailers to hitch up . I'm leaning towards a Bateson Derby .


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## Vibella (22 June 2016)

Hi there! 

You very kindly helped me understand some of the towing rules four years ago when I bought my xtrail I've re-read my old messages but I'm still confused when buying a new car! Can you help again?

I'm looking at the Kia Sorento which looking online seems to be a good choice for towing.....but the figures are confusing me, it's got a towing capacity of 3000 according to parkers (06 Reg xt crdi) and a weight of 2065 my Ifor 510 is 1000kg according to Ifor but the plate in it says ....think is was 1292,.... just under 1300 anyway say 600 for my horse, so 1900 so that makes me legal (got my b+e around 4 years ago) 

The confusion comes in with the 85% rule, if you can only tow 85% of vehicle weight that's 1755 (I realise that's a guideline not law) but if you can't tow more than 100% of the vehicle weight but the towing capacity is higher than the weight of the car, how does this work? So I'm confused how they can say it's got a towing capacity of 3000 when the car only weighs 2000? Am I misunderstanding something? 

I know I'm legal with one horse but trying to figure out if I can carry two. Guessing 2200 ish, which is under the towing capacity but over the vehicle weight.

Help


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## ROG (23 June 2016)

Vibella said:



			Hi there! 

You very kindly helped me understand some of the towing rules four years ago when I bought my xtrail I've re-read my old messages but I'm still confused when buying a new car! Can you help again?

I'm looking at the Kia Sorento which looking online seems to be a good choice for towing.....but the figures are confusing me, it's got a towing capacity of 3000 according to parkers (06 Reg xt crdi) and a weight of 2065 my Ifor 510 is 1000kg according to Ifor but the plate in it says ....think is was 1292,.... just under 1300 anyway say 600 for my horse, so 1900 so that makes me legal (got my b+e around 4 years ago) 

The confusion comes in with the 85% rule, if you can only tow 85% of vehicle weight that's 1755 (I realise that's a guideline not law) but if you can't tow more than 100% of the vehicle weight but the towing capacity is higher than the weight of the car, how does this work? So I'm confused how they can say it's got a towing capacity of 3000 when the car only weighs 2000? Am I misunderstanding something? 

I know I'm legal with one horse but trying to figure out if I can carry two. Guessing 2200 ish, which is under the towing capacity but over the vehicle weight.

Help 

Click to expand...

The 85% ADVICE not rule is for caravans only due to their design instability


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## Abi90 (27 June 2016)

Hello all, 

I want to make sure that I am understanding towing on a B licence correctly. 

I believe that as long as the cars laden weight and the trailers MAM is less than 3.5T I'm alright? So a VW Tiguan weighing 1600kg could tow a trailer with a MAM of 1900kg? Obviously most trailers are higher than that so would need downplating? 

I've read somewhere that the MAM also needs to be less than the cars kerb weight, is this correct? 

I intend to get my B+E anyway to make life easier but was trying to work out whether I could tow one horse in a downplated trailer without doing it. 

Thanks for your help!


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## ROG (27 June 2016)

Abi90 said:



			Hello all, 

I want to make sure that I am understanding towing on a B licence correctly. 

I believe that as long as the cars laden weight and the trailers MAM is less than 3.5T I'm alright? So a VW Tiguan weighing 1600kg could tow a trailer with a MAM of 1900kg? Obviously most trailers are higher than that so would need downplating? 

I've read somewhere that the MAM also needs to be less than the cars kerb weight, is this correct? 

I intend to get my B+E anyway to make life easier but was trying to work out whether I could tow one horse in a downplated trailer without doing it. 

Thanks for your help!
		
Click to expand...

Not got it correct so here is an explanation of how B licence towing works

The plated GVW (or max permissible mass on the V5 form)  added to the trailer plated MAM must not total more than 3500 kg

If the Tiguan weighs 1600 empty then the GVW is likely to be around 2200 and if that is so then that leaves 1300 for the trailer MAM

Let me help further - 
which of these models is your Tiguan? = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/data/volkswagen/tiguan/kerb-weight/
What trailer do you have ?

The MAM being less than kerbweight rule was revoked on 19/01/2013


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## Abi90 (27 June 2016)

I currently have neither.

The model Tiguan I was looking at is the Match which isn't listed on there, but had an unladen weight of 1598kg and looking at an Ifor Williams 506. Horse weights 450kg. Haven't bought anything yet just looking at options. Went to see a Suzuki Grand Vitara today but it was a bit lacking on the spec front and the Tiguans MPG is better (car will also be my day to day car).

I was trying to work out whether I could get away with not doing the trailer test but if I have to I will, will make things easier in the long term!


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## ROG (27 June 2016)

Abi90 said:



			I currently have neither.

The model Tiguan I was looking at is the Match which isn't listed on there, but had an unladen weight of 1598kg and looking at an Ifor Williams 506. Horse weights 450kg. Haven't bought anything yet just looking at options. Went to see a Suzuki Grand Vitara today but it was a bit lacking on the spec front and the Tiguans MPG is better (car will also be my day to day car).

I was trying to work out whether I could get away with not doing the trailer test but if I have to I will, will make things easier in the long term!
		
Click to expand...

UW of 1598 = GVW of 2220 according to the link

HB506 = empty 920 and MAM of 2600

Horse = 450

Max trailer MAM of 1280 with 2220 GVW but down plating from 2600 to 1280 with it being 920 empty only leaves 360 for the horse

If you went for a HB401/3 which is 780 empty and can be down plated from 1600 to 1280 would leave 500 for the horse


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## Abi90 (27 June 2016)

Thank you.

I've heard the single horse trailers can be unstable? Although I suppose they must be roadworthy so shouldn't be a huge issue?


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## ROG (27 June 2016)

Abi90 said:



			Thank you.

I've heard the single horse trailers can be unstable? Although I suppose they must be roadworthy so shouldn't be a huge issue?
		
Click to expand...

There are VERY stable - I should know as I have taught many on here to tow with them !


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## Abi90 (27 June 2016)

Excellent. Have just read that they are better for fuel efficiency too! Which I like very much.

Now to find a second hand one somewhere between Leicester and Berwick!


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## ROG (27 June 2016)

Abi90 said:



			Excellent. Have just read that they are better for fuel efficiency too! Which I like very much.

Now to find a second hand one somewhere between Leicester and Berwick!
		
Click to expand...

there was a Leicester member selling one a few weeks ago ..... but for the life of me I cannot remember who it was .... not much help I know

Are you based in Leicester ?


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## Abi90 (27 June 2016)

Parents in Leicester and based in Alnwick so happy to commute between the two for a trailer. 

Looking at a Mitsubishi ASX as well, weighs less, trailer would still need downplating but the car could pull a single trailer and horse whereas it wouldn't manage a double.

Also cheaper than the VW so can look at more expensive trailers.


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## ROG (28 June 2016)

Abi90 said:



			Parents in Leicester and based in Alnwick so happy to commute between the two for a trailer. 

Looking at a Mitsubishi ASX as well, weighs less, trailer would still need downplating but the car could pull a single trailer and horse whereas it wouldn't manage a double.

Also cheaper than the VW so can look at more expensive trailers.
		
Click to expand...

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/data/mitsubishi/asx/gross-vehicle-weight/ = around 2000 GVW

http://carleasingmadesimple.com/data/mitsubishi/asx/towing-weight-limit/ = towing limit 1200 to 1400 depending on model so the towing limit is going to be the max actual weight which can be towed

With a 2000 GVW and a 1400 towing limit you could have a trailer plated at 1500 but if the trailer weighs 900 empty then the max load for the trailer will be 500


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## Abi90 (28 June 2016)

I think I'm going to go for the larger car and the smaller trailer. I'm only going to tow one horse but the larger car gives me options to upgrade to a large trailer in the future.

Also VWs hold their value better so I can sell it on better later on.

I'm considering buying a new trailer, they aren't much more than the second hand ones looking around and I can buy it down rated and don't need to travel to look at trailers saving me time and some money. 

Thank you for your help! I feel better going into a buying situation and looking forward to the freedom a trailer brings!


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## ROG (28 June 2016)

Clannad48 said:



			A quick question - Looking for an automatic car that will allow my daughter to tow an Ifor Williams 505 with one 500kg horse on a B License. I have searched these threads looking for a set up but can't find anyone doing this.  

And yes I know she could do the towing test but that is not an option at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

HB505 is 905 empty with an original plated MAM of 2340 so to accommodate a 500 horse you could down plate it to 1450 leaving a little wiggle room weight wise

That means you need a vehicle with a max GVW of 2050 and a towing capacity of at least 1450


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## Abi90 (28 June 2016)

Sorry Rog, me again.

If I was looking at a car with a GVW of 1960 that would leave me with 1540 kg so could I now look at a 506 trailer? As it weighs 905 empty, if I downplated to 1540 I would have more than enough weight left for a 450 kg horse?

Have I done the maths right?


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## ROG (29 June 2016)

Abi90 said:



			Sorry Rog, me again.

If I was looking at a car with a GVW of 1960 that would leave me with 1540 kg so could I now look at a 506 trailer? As it weighs 905 empty, if I downplated to 1540 I would have more than enough weight left for a 450 kg horse?

Have I done the maths right?
		
Click to expand...

Maths correct for B towing

Does the car have enough towing capacity to tow actual weight of trailer + trailer load ?


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## Clannad48 (29 June 2016)

ROG said:



			HB505 is 905 empty with an original plated MAM of 2340 so to accommodate a 500 horse you could down plate it to 1450 leaving a little wiggle room weight wise

That means you need a vehicle with a max GVW of 2050 and a towing capacity of at least 1450
		
Click to expand...

ROG - I realise this is the information but I was hoping that someone with just a B license who tows a IW505 with approx 500kg horse in it could tell me what vehicle they use for towing. I have read all the posts but am unable to find this information and going onto every vehicle website looking for a vehicle with a max GVW of 2050 is almost impossible to achieve.  Unless you know of a website that contains this search facility.


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## Abi90 (29 June 2016)

ROG the braked towing capacity is 1800kg. Horse plus trailer would be about 1250kg which leaves me over half a ton of spare capacity if I went for a single trailer and 400kg spare if a double. I will probably stick with a single though.


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## ROG (29 June 2016)

Clannad48 said:



			ROG - I realise this is the information but I was hoping that someone with just a B license who tows a IW505 with approx 500kg horse in it could tell me what vehicle they use for towing. I have read all the posts but am unable to find this information and going onto every vehicle website looking for a vehicle with a max GVW of 2050 is almost impossible to achieve.  Unless you know of a website that contains this search facility.
		
Click to expand...

I do not know of a site which lists the GVWs of all vehicles


http://carleasingmadesimple.com/data/nissan/x-trail/gross-vehicle-weight/ non 4x4 versions are 2050

Subaru Forester may also be worth a look


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## Abi90 (30 June 2016)

I've gone with the Qashqai, just put down a deposit. 

It's GVW is 1960kg so would it be worth only downrating the trailer to 1400kg which gives me more wiggle room if I change horse to a heavier one? 

So excited for freedom! Going to get my Dad to give me towing lessons before I put a horse in it and we're starting with the dinghy trailer to practice in.


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## ROG (30 June 2016)

Abi90 said:



			Going to get my Dad to give me towing lessons before I put a horse in it and we're starting with the dinghy trailer to practice in.
		
Click to expand...

I do towing help for FREE (with expenses covered) in Leicestershire should it not work out with a family member


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## fairyclare (30 June 2016)

ROG, I have read hundreds of comments (not quite read 288 pages with though) and can't see the answer.....

2.2 D4D Rav4 + 505 Ifor Williams carrying 1 500kg horse - legal? 
2 people only.

Pre 97 licence so that is no issue.


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## Abi90 (30 June 2016)

ROG said:



			I do towing help for FREE (with expenses covered) in Leicestershire should it not work out with a family member
		
Click to expand...

Thank you. I might take you up on that when I go the collect the trailer. Thank you so much for your help


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## ROG (30 June 2016)

fairyclare said:



			ROG, I have read hundreds of comments (not quite read 288 pages with though) and can't see the answer.....

2.2 D4D Rav4 + 505 Ifor Williams carrying 1 500kg horse - legal? 
2 people only.

Pre 97 licence so that is no issue.
		
Click to expand...

Which one is yours = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/data/toyota/rav4/towing-weight-limit/

Not bothered about people as they do not travel in the trailer ..... at least I hope not !

HB505 = 905 empty + horse 500 = just over 1400 ..... lets say 1500 with other bits max weight


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## fairyclare (30 June 2016)

ROG said:



			Which one is yours = http://carleasingmadesimple.com/data/toyota/rav4/towing-weight-limit/

Not bothered about people as they do not travel in the trailer ..... at least I hope not !

HB505 = 905 empty + horse 500 = just over 1400 ..... lets say 1500 with other bits max weight
		
Click to expand...

I can't see it on that list.... its a 2.2 Diesel manual with 2 or 4 wheel drive (XT-RD-4D is what the manual says)


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## ROG (30 June 2016)

fairyclare said:



			I can't see it on that list.... its a 2.2 Diesel manual with 2 or 4 wheel drive (XT-RD-4D is what the manual says)
		
Click to expand...

On the V5 keepers doc what does it say the max towing weight is ?
OR
What are the top two figures on the four figure weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame ?


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## fairyclare (30 June 2016)

I will look tomorrow in the light but the manual says breaker towing weight 2000kg


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## ROG (1 July 2016)

fairyclare said:



			I will look tomorrow in the light but the manual says breaker towing weight 2000kg
		
Click to expand...

Great - the trailer + horse is going to be 1500 max so that gives 500 to spare

You have B+E so no licence issues


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## fairyclare (3 July 2016)

V5 confirms a 2000kg braked towing weight. Thanks for your help ROG


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## Shutterbug (6 July 2016)

Took my car and trailer to the weighbridge this morning.  Been meaning to do it for ages and have been towing with L plates and a qualified driver up to now, just to be safe.  Combined weight of both with a full tank of fuel is 2800kg - neither of my horses come up to 600kg on their own. 

Just for interest sake, I am driving a 2002 Hyundai Santa Fe 2.0 TD Automatic and towing a (somewhat aged but refurbished) Rice Richardson trailer.


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## ROG (6 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			Took my car and trailer to the weighbridge this morning.  Been meaning to do it for ages and have been towing with L plates and a qualified driver up to now, just to be safe.  Combined weight of both with a full tank of fuel is 2800kg - neither of my horses come up to 600kg on their own. 

Just for interest sake, I am driving a 2002 Hyundai Santa Fe 2.0 TD Automatic and towing a (somewhat aged but refurbished) Rice Richardson trailer.
		
Click to expand...

You have only got the actual weight whereas you need the total of the plated weights for licencing

To check if the actual weights are ok for B+E  you need this info - 
Actual weight of trailer + load
Max towing capacity of vehicle


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## Shutterbug (6 July 2016)

ROG said:



			You have only got the actual weight whereas you need the total of the plated weights for licencing

To check if the actual weights are ok for B+E  you need this info - 
Actual weight of trailer + load
Max towing capacity of vehicle
		
Click to expand...

Weight of trailer is 975kg
Load is max 600kg
Max towing capacity of the car is 2t


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## ROG (6 July 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			Weight of trailer is 975kg
Load is max 600kg
Max towing capacity of the car is 2t
		
Click to expand...

Easily ok weight wise with 400 to spare

B+E licence rules apply


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## nicki260213 (8 July 2016)

I'm confused......

Have a Nissan X-Trail 2007 2.0 tdi
Ifor Williams hb510 
passed driving test 2008 and have 2 300kg ponies..am I able to tow them to a show?


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## ROG (9 July 2016)

nicki260213 said:



			I'm confused......

Have a Nissan X-Trail 2007 2.0 tdi
Ifor Williams hb510 
passed driving test 2008 and have 2 300kg ponies..am I able to tow them to a show?
		
Click to expand...

B licence towing rules unless you have passed a B+E towing test

Need to know these figures -

Xtrail GVW - that is the max permissible weight on the V5 keepers form or the top figure of the four on the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame

HB510 MAM - if it still has the original then that will be 2584 kg
Trailer is 1000 kg empty
http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1064

The Xtrail GVW (????) added to the trailer MAM (2584) must not total more than 3500 for B licence towing

I suspect the Xtrail GVW is probably about 2100 so even if you down plated the trailer from 2584 to 1400 via contact with IW then that would only allow for a max trailer load of 400 so well short of the 600 needed


For this set up on a B licence your only option is this - 

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## ROG (9 July 2016)

To add to the above reply - 

This trailer would be your answer = http://www.batesontrailers.com/product/horse-trailers/derby-lightweight-horse-pony/ - the Bateson Derby

If the Xtrail has a GVW of 2200 then that trailer can be down plated from 1700 to 1300 via contact with Bateson and as it is only 675 empty then at 1300 it would leave 625 for the trailer load

If the Xtrail is less than 2200 GVW then the trailer can be plated higher than 1300 leaving more for the trailer load


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## ROG (10 July 2016)

lilly1 said:



			Can I tow a 550kg horse in a single trailer with a b plate licence? All the MAM and curb weight calculations are getting be confused. 
If so what trailer and vehicle combination would be the best  I understand a discovery would be a no go due to its towing capacity being over 3500kg?
		
Click to expand...

Lets give you an example which would be legal on a B licence =

Vehicle
GVW 2100
Towing capacity 1600

Trailer
Empty 800
MAM was 1600 but down plated to 1400 via manufacturer

Max load for trailer 600


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## Abi90 (12 July 2016)

Am I better off with a flange or swan neck towbar for towing a horse? The flange ones look stronger but I literally have no idea what I am talking about.


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## ROG (12 July 2016)

Abi90 said:



			Am I better off with a flange or swan neck towbar for towing a horse? The flange ones look stronger but I literally have no idea what I am talking about.
		
Click to expand...

Cannot help on this one ..... because ...... I literally have no idea what I am talking about.


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## Abi90 (12 July 2016)

ROG said:



			Cannot help on this one ..... because ...... I literally have no idea what I am talking about.
		
Click to expand...

Never mind! Hopefully the towbar people do!


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## jsprince (19 July 2016)

Hi 

I have a question which Im getting confused about.

I passed my test in 1995 so have towing rights.

I want to travel two of my Percherons  probably 1.7 to 1.8 tonnes.

i have available a single cab 2007 l200 with 2.7 tonne tow capacity
or
1993 3.1 isuzu trooper swb with i think 3.3 tonne tow capacity

Am I right in thinking if i get a trailer with 3.5 tonne limit i could put in behind either vehicle as long as I didn't overload the towing vehicles capacity.
EG l200  2.7 tonne
 trooper 3.3 tonne?
Thankyou for your help.


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## ROG (19 July 2016)

jsprince said:



			Hi 

I have a question which Im getting confused about.

I passed my test in 1995 so have towing rights.

I want to travel two of my Percherons  probably 1.7 to 1.8 tonnes.

i have available a single cab 2007 l200 with 2.7 tonne tow capacity
or
1993 3.1 isuzu trooper swb with i think 3.3 tonne tow capacity

Am I right in thinking if i get a trailer with 3.5 tonne limit i could put in behind either vehicle as long as I didn't overload the towing vehicles capacity.
EG l200  2.7 tonne
 trooper 3.3 tonne?
Thankyou for your help.
		
Click to expand...

Correct

Perfectly legal to have a trailer MAM higher than a vehicle towing capacity


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## jsprince (20 July 2016)

ROG said:



			Correct

Perfectly legal to have a trailer MAM higher than a vehicle towing capacity
		
Click to expand...

Thank you now to find a trailer I like.


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## NiceNeverNaughty (25 July 2016)

looking for vehicle recommendations please!

I have B+E license and currently tow my trailer with our defender. Great vehicle  However there are days when things clash and both hubby and I need it, so we are looking to get a 2nd towing car...  so what would my options be for smaller vehicles that can a) tow 3.5tonnes, Toureag is one I think? or b) that could tow enough to allow me to take 1 of my ponies out (both are 14.2hh) so even with a  2 - 2.5tonne towing capacity Id be fine as trailer is 940kg.


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## ROG (25 July 2016)

NeverEver said:



			looking for vehicle recommendations please!

I have B+E license and currently tow my trailer with our defender. Great vehicle  However there are days when things clash and both hubby and I need it, so we are looking to get a 2nd towing car...  so what would my options be for smaller vehicles that can a) tow 3.5tonnes, Toureag is one I think? or b) that could tow enough to allow me to take 1 of my ponies out (both are 14.2hh) so even with a  2 - 2.5tonne towing capacity Id be fine as trailer is 940kg.
		
Click to expand...

I advise on towing legalities but the last link in my signature below may help


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## flat3 (29 July 2016)

Hi ROG

I read your very informative posts and thought I had my head around it, then I looked at the plate on my car and saw the GTW number and got myself all confused. So apologies for my slightly rambling post.

I have a B licence. I dont have a horse yet, but will purchase one later this year and would like the option to go out and about so Im trying to work out if I need to change my car too  currently a Renault Grand Scenic. Im working on 600kg for horse (likely medium weight 15hh) and associated essential bits in trailer. For the trailer Im planning on a Bateson Derby at 675kg unladen. 

So I think the car needs to tow at least 1275kg (600+675). From Google I understood my cars towing capacity was 1300kg (it isnt in the handbook and I dont know where to find this on the car if it isnt on that plate). My GVW is 2165kg so with a trailer downplated to 1300kg MAM I thought I would be just within the limits (might be too close anyway?).

However, Ive realised the plate on my car says this
2165kg
3000kg
1  1130kg
2  1230kg 
I think the 3000kg is the GTW. So my issue is GVW + towing capacity = 2165 + 1300 = 3465kg which is way more than the 3000kg GTW figure. Given that I'd be at max towing capacity I think this means I'm not legal? My total weight is below the standard 3500kg restriction but isn't within my car's GTW?

Really grateful for any advice!


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## ROG (30 July 2016)

flat3 said:



			Hi ROG

I read your very informative posts and thought I had my head around it, then I looked at the plate on my car and saw the GTW number and got myself all confused. So apologies for my slightly rambling post.

I have a B licence. I don&#8217;t have a horse yet, but will purchase one later this year and would like the option to go out and about so I&#8217;m trying to work out if I need to change my car too &#8211; currently a Renault Grand Scenic. I&#8217;m working on 600kg for horse (likely medium weight 15hh) and associated essential bits in trailer. For the trailer I&#8217;m planning on a Bateson Derby at 675kg unladen. 

So I think the car needs to tow at least 1275kg (600+675). From Google I understood my car&#8217;s towing capacity was 1300kg (it isn&#8217;t in the handbook and I don&#8217;t know where to find this on the car if it isn&#8217;t on that plate). My GVW is 2165kg so with a trailer downplated to 1300kg MAM I thought I would be just within the limits (might be too close anyway?).

However, I&#8217;ve realised the plate on my car says this
2165kg
3000kg
1 &#8211; 1130kg
2 &#8211; 1230kg 
I think the 3000kg is the GTW. So my issue is GVW + towing capacity = 2165 + 1300 = 3465kg which is way more than the 3000kg GTW figure. Given that I'd be at max towing capacity I think this means I'm not legal? My total weight is below the standard 3500kg restriction but isn't within my car's GTW?

Really grateful for any advice!
		
Click to expand...

If the max towing weight on the V5 keepers doc is listed as 1300 then you have one of the rare cases where you are permitted to tow 1300 but in doing so the max actual weight of the car when towing cannot be more than 1700 to comply with the max GTW of 3000

GTW refers to the max actual weight of the combination and not the max total of the plated weights


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## ROG (31 July 2016)

Was that useful flat3 ?


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## flat3 (1 August 2016)

ROG said:



			Was that useful flat3 ?
		
Click to expand...

Hi

Sorry for slow reply, thank you yes it has. I have looked in the V5 and it's only 1250kg towing capacity so I think I need to look for an alternative vehicle  

Thank you very much for helping me finally reach a conclusion though!


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## ROG (2 August 2016)

flat3 said:



			Hi

Sorry for slow reply, thank you yes it has. I have looked in the V5 and it's only 1250kg towing capacity so I think I need to look for an alternative vehicle 

Click to expand...

Or a 500/550 kg horse


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## CleanShavings (2 August 2016)

Does anyone know of any good training books/guides that sit along side of the test please? I want to do some home study before I go for my training. 

Thanks


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## ROG (2 August 2016)

CleanShavings said:



			Does anyone know of any good training books/guides that sit along side of the test please? I want to do some home study before I go for my training. 

Thanks
		
Click to expand...



*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
*VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions* = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqw6Ua3kmFc&feature=related - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
*VIDEO - Reversing Exercise* = http://www.drivesafedriving.co.uk/b_e_rev_movie.htm - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*DSA REVERSING TEST AREA DIAGRAM* = https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._PCV_BE_manoeuvring_exercise_area_diagram.pdf 
*VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up* = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao_5KOe8dGg&feature=related - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

The trailer must now be loaded with 600 kgs of sand bags or a 1000 kgs water IBC for the test so most companies are now training with that weight in the trailer = https://www.gov.uk/new-laden-testing-rules-for-driving-test-vehicles 

*Well explained here* = http://www.trailertraining-wales.co.uk/test.html 

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos

This is interesting BUT NOT RECOMMENDED &#8211; a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test that means you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself. 
*DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS* =  http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_4022521 
Remember that the required 600 kgs of sand bags or 1 x 1000 IBC filled with water will be required in the trailer and the load must be secure.



*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## Cobbychic (11 August 2016)

B&e licence
Xtrail with 2000 towing capacity 
4500 train weight
Equitrek space treka m
Gross weight 2500


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## ROG (12 August 2016)

Cobbychic said:



			B&e licence
Xtrail with 2000 towing capacity 
4500 train weight
Equitrek space treka m
Gross weight 2500
		
Click to expand...

Trailer empty weight = 1120 
Max load for trailer using that vehicle = 880


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## Cobbychic (12 August 2016)

Hi rog, is it based on towing capacity or gross train Weight?


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## ROG (12 August 2016)

Cobbychic said:



			Hi rog, is it based on towing capacity or gross train Weight?
		
Click to expand...

Towing capacity = 2000
Empty trailer = 1120
Leaves 880 for trailer load

Had the plated MAM of the trailer been say 1800 then the max load for trailer would be 680

Questions to ask ....
Has GVW of vehicle been exceeded 
Has MAM of trailer been exceeded
Has vehicle towing capacity been exceeded
Has GTW been exceeded

If all answered no then all is legal for weights


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## SuperCat007 (14 August 2016)

VW Golf 2.0 TDI:

GVW: 1366 kg
Towing cap of the car: 1500 kg
GVW of trailer: about 1600 kg, unladen weight: around 750 kg
Horse is about 450 kg
I would need to down plate the trailer to 1200 kg to only be able to take the horse at that weight, but I could just down plate to 1400 kg and have some extra weight just in case??


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## ROG (14 August 2016)

SuperCat007 said:



			VW Golf 2.0 TDI:

GVW: 1366 kg
Towing cap of the car: 1500 kg
GVW of trailer: about 1600 kg, unladen weight: around 750 kg
Horse is about 450 kg
I would need to down plate the trailer to 1200 kg to only be able to take the horse at that weight, but I could just down plate to 1400 kg and have some extra weight just in case??
		
Click to expand...

GVW must be about 1800 ish - 1366 seems like an empty/unladen/mass in service weight

If on a B or B+E licence there is no need to down plate the trailer 

I suspect this is a HB401/3 so 780 empty not 750 ?

For B licence towing the total MAM of 1800? + 1600 - 3400 so well under the 3500 limit

The max load for the trailer on any licence is 720 (1500 - 780 = 720)


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## lilly1 (15 August 2016)

Hi ROG,

I currently have a Freelander with a GVW of 2050 kg.  I've got my eye on a single trailer (Requisite 75) which has a MAM of 1400kg. The unladen weight is 590kg so loads of payload. Am I correct in thinking I can legally tow with this combination on a B Licence as the MAM of both comes in at under 3500?


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## ROG (15 August 2016)

lilly1 said:



			Hi ROG,

I currently have a Freelander with a GVW of 2050 kg.  I've got my eye on a single trailer (Requisite 75) which has a MAM of 1400kg. The unladen weight is 590kg so loads of payload. Am I correct in thinking I can legally tow with this combination on a B Licence as the MAM of both comes in at under 3500?
		
Click to expand...

Correct


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## SuperCat007 (16 August 2016)

ROG said:



			GVW must be about 1800 ish - 1366 seems like an empty/unladen/mass in service weight

If on a B or B+E licence there is no need to down plate the trailer 

I suspect this is a HB401/3 so 780 empty not 750 ?

For B licence towing the total MAM of 1800? + 1600 - 3400 so well under the 3500 limit

The max load for the trailer on any licence is 720 (1500 - 780 = 720)
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ROG, I was looking at the Cheval Liberte one horse trailer which is about 750 kg. I will double check the weight of the car again, looking good though once I can afford the trailer and tow bar, and I avoid too much off road towing!!


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## ROG (16 August 2016)

According to cheval site the trailer is 720 empty and 1600 MAM

Leaves max GVW for vehicle of 1900 before down plating of trailer is needed for B towing


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## Sandstone1 (16 August 2016)

A hypothetical question, is it safe and indeed legal to travel two horses in a trailer nose to tail?
Front ramp, but not adapted in anyway.


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## ROG (16 August 2016)

Sandstone1 said:



			A hypothetical question, is it safe and indeed legal to travel two horses in a trailer nose to tail?
Front ramp, but not adapted in anyway.
		
Click to expand...

I cannot help as I only deal with towing vehicle + trailer weight/licence legalities so perhaps asking again with a new post will get more response


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## Sandstone1 (16 August 2016)

Ok, thanks just wondered.


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## lilly1 (16 August 2016)

Thank you


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## SuperCat007 (19 August 2016)

ROG said:



			According to cheval site the trailer is 720 empty and 1600 MAM

Leaves max GVW for vehicle of 1900 before down plating of trailer is needed for B towing
		
Click to expand...

So theoretically, I could tow the Ifor 505 which is 920 unladen and 2600 (I think) MAM. But that would leave me 580 kg to tow in the towing limit of the car. But I would need to downplate to at least 1500 kg to be legal on a B licence?


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## ROG (19 August 2016)

SuperCat007 said:



			So theoretically, I could tow the Ifor 505 which is 920 unladen and 2600 (I think) MAM. But that would leave me 580 kg to tow in the towing limit of the car. But I would need to downplate to at least 1500 kg to be legal on a B licence?
		
Click to expand...

You got it


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## SuperCat007 (20 August 2016)

ROG said:



			You got it
		
Click to expand...

Thank you. It's one of those things I keep thinking I've got and then I lose it again! I'm still not able to find a GVW of the car of over around 1366 kg, so I might have to take it to the local weighbridge for peace of mind!


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## ROG (20 August 2016)

SuperCat007 said:



			Thank you. It's one of those things I keep thinking I've got and then I lose it again! I'm still not able to find a GVW of the car of over around 1366 kg, so I might have to take it to the local weighbridge for peace of mind!
		
Click to expand...

Weighbridge will only give you the actual/empty/unladen/mass in service weight not the GVW

GVW is the max possible legal weight it can be when fully loaded

Find the weight plate hidden in the car which is usually under the bonnet or in a door frame - the GVW is the top of the four figures

GVW is also listed on the V5 keepers doc as MAX PERMISSIBLE WEIGHT


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## louiset07 (23 August 2016)

Not sure if this is the right place... I have an Ifor Williams HB511 - aim to tow one approx. 600kg horse. Is a Hyundai Sante Fe (58 plate) capable of doing so?

thanks and sorry if the wrong place!!


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## ROG (23 August 2016)

louiset07 said:



			Not sure if this is the right place... I have an Ifor Williams HB511 - aim to tow one approx. 600kg horse. Is a Hyundai Sante Fe (58 plate) capable of doing so?

thanks and sorry if the wrong place!!
		
Click to expand...

any help = http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...nyone-tow-with-a-Hyundai-Santa-Fe-or-Frontera

What licence .... B or B+E ?

Got V5 keepers doc ? - if yes then what figures are listed for ..... Max permissible mass ? + max towing weight ?


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## louiset07 (25 August 2016)

ROG said:



			any help = http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...nyone-tow-with-a-Hyundai-Santa-Fe-or-Frontera

What licence .... B or B+E ?

Got V5 keepers doc ? - if yes then what figures are listed for ..... Max permissible mass ? + max towing weight ?
		
Click to expand...

I did my trailer test at the start of this year.

Max towing weight is 2500kg... my maths tells me that the combined weight of the trailer (1000kg) and horse (600kg) totals 1600kg so that it would be absolutely fine? - am I correct in thinking this or is it more complicated than this?


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## ROG (25 August 2016)

louiset07 said:



			I did my trailer test at the start of this year.

Max towing weight is 2500kg... my maths tells me that the combined weight of the trailer (1000kg) and horse (600kg) totals 1600kg so that it would be absolutely fine? - am I correct in thinking this or is it more complicated than this?
		
Click to expand...

that is it - easy aint it


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## louiset07 (25 August 2016)

Love it!!! Thanks


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## rixtele (27 August 2016)

Hi hope you can help me too please. Here are my details:

1. BE
2. Don't know. Have a Mazda CX-5
3. Don't know. Have a Mazda CX-5
4. Believe it is 2000kg
5. Ifor 511 - 2400kg
6. 1000kg
Only want and need to tow my 17hh horse no others. I know poss on my limit. Horse weighs 600kg. 

Am I legal? 

Thanks in advance.


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## ROG (27 August 2016)

rixtele said:



			Hi hope you can help me too please. Here are my details:

1. BE
2. Don't know. Have a Mazda CX-5
3. Don't know. Have a Mazda CX-5
4. Believe it is 2000kg
5. Ifor 511 - 2400kg
6. 1000kg
Only want and need to tow my 17hh horse no others. I know poss on my limit. Horse weighs 600kg. 

Am I legal? 

Thanks in advance.
		
Click to expand...

https://carleasingmadesimple.com/data/mazda/cx-5/towing-weight-limit/ - if its one in that link then it could be 1800 or 2000 towing limit

Assuming it is a 2000 tow limit then you can load a max of 1000 into the trailer


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## rixtele (28 August 2016)

ROG said:



https://carleasingmadesimple.com/data/mazda/cx-5/towing-weight-limit/ - if its one in that link then it could be 1800 or 2000 towing limit

Assuming it is a 2000 tow limit then you can load a max of 1000 into the trailer
		
Click to expand...

Thank you ROG - yes it is the 2000 tow limit. However what about the 85% recommended max towing limit? I *think* I'm just within that or v close with 600kg horse?


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## ROG (28 August 2016)

rixtele said:



			Thank you ROG - yes it is the 2000 tow limit. However what about the 85% recommended max towing limit? I *think* I'm just within that or v close with 600kg horse?
		
Click to expand...

The 85% advice thing is for caravans only due to their design


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## ROG (2 October 2016)

No posts in September ! - everyone must be sorted ..... bit boring for me though - LOL


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## tallyho! (2 October 2016)

It's the quiet before the storm Rog... just you wait... &#55357;&#56836;


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## CharlotteRS (4 October 2016)

Hi
I've been reading this thread with interest as I'm looking to buy a sinclair trailer to tow with my Ford Focus Estate. I'm been concerned about the trailers MAM as I was told if this is greater than the cars's towing capacity - even if I never reach the MAM - I can't legally tow. But Rog, you say this isn't true? Where do you get your info from? My instructor says otherwise!
Here are details:
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE - BE I think, I passed my test back in 1990
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - is this mass in service? If so, it's 1359
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 18958
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 3295
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres 2000
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer " 700 (or poss 750 max)

Does this mean I am safe and legal to tow? Thanks loads


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## ROG (4 October 2016)

CharlotteRS said:



			Hi
I've been reading this thread with interest as I'm looking to buy a sinclair trailer to tow with my Ford Focus Estate. I'm been concerned about the trailers MAM as I was told if this is greater than the cars's towing capacity - even if I never reach the MAM - I can't legally tow. But Rog, you say this isn't true? Where do you get your info from? My instructor says otherwise!
Here are details:
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE - BE I think, I passed my test back in 1990
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - is this mass in service? If so, it's 1359
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 18958
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 3295
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres 2000
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer " 700 (or poss 750 max)

Does this mean I am safe and legal to tow? Thanks loads
		
Click to expand...

Ask your instructor to show you the law that backs up what they say = they will not be able to because there is not one !
No law which states it is illegal then its legal by omission 

You have BE
Do not think number 3 is supposed to be nearly 19 tonnes !

LEGAL Example
Vehicle towing capacity 2000
Trailer plated MAM 3500
Trailer empty 900
Max load for trailer = 1100


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## ROG (4 October 2016)

CharlotteRS said:



			I'm been concerned about the trailers MAM as I was told if this is greater than the cars's towing capacity - even if I never reach the MAM - I can't legally tow. But Rog, you say this isn't true? Where do you get your info from? My instructor says otherwise!
		
Click to expand...

Are you willing to give me the name or contact number of this instructor ?


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## CharlotteRS (4 October 2016)

Oops! no I didn't mean 19tonnes. I meant 1895. I'm a bit confused about your reply - the legal example you've given me is different from the figures I supplied... 

And no I won't supply name of my instructor!!


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## ROG (4 October 2016)

CharlotteRS said:



			Oops! no I didn't mean 19tonnes. I meant 1895. I'm a bit confused about your reply - the legal example you've given me is different from the figures I supplied... 

And no I won't supply name of my instructor!!
		
Click to expand...

I was hoping to educate the instructor on the law but never mind .....

Your figures etc
BE licence
GVW 1895
GTW 3295
Towing capacity (unless stated otherwise on V5 keeprs doc or in handbook) is 3295 minus 1895 = 1400
Trailer MAM 2000
Trailer empty 750
Max load for trailer is 650 (750+650=1400)

You can have a trailer plated at 3500 as long as the empty trailer plus the load do not total more than 1400


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## CharlotteRS (4 October 2016)

Great, thanks for this. I shall endeavour to educate my instructor when I see him next! Can I ask where you get your info from? 
Also, do you have an opinion on towing with a non 4x4 car? my husband is concerned ours isn't up to the job, even thought the stats addd all up...


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## ROG (4 October 2016)

CharlotteRS said:



			Great, thanks for this. I shall endeavour to educate my instructor when I see him next! Can I ask where you get your info from? 
Also, do you have an opinion on towing with a non 4x4 car? my husband is concerned ours isn't up to the job, even thought the stats addd all up...
		
Click to expand...

Vehicles are designed to tow up to a certain weight limit - manufacturers would be sued a lot if they got that wrong !
What will make a difference is the type of surface being towed on - would not recommend a non 4x4 on any sort of surface where grip is not good

My info comes from consultations with DVSA, DVLA, Traffic Police and the DfT via my MP.

If someone says something is a law or rule then ask them to prove it by showing you that in writing/text otherwise it does not exist

I cannot prove a non law


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## ROG (4 October 2016)

Regarding the so call law/rule where the MAM of the trailer cannot be more than the towing capacity of a vehicle it is often said that the POTENTIAL is there to exceed the towing capacity by going up to the MAM of the trailer ..... but there is no law on POTENTIAL

If there was such POTENTIAL laws then .......
Driver - why have you stopped me when I was doing 30 in this 30 limit ?
Cop - can you car do 70 ?
Driver - yes
Cop - then I arrest you for have the POTENTIAL to do 70 in this 30 limit
Cop - lets look in your boot - oh dear you have a secured rifle in here
Driver - I have just come from the gun club up the road and I have a licence for the rifle
Cop - I arrest you for the POTENTIAL to commit murder with a firearm

..... hmmmmm


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## JuniperZ (8 October 2016)

I'm so happy to find this thread!  I've heard so many people say that you can't legally tow a trailer if it's MAM is over the car's towing limit - regardless of what weight you have in the trailer.  I couldn't find anything to back this up on the gov.uk website so was thoroughly confused!

Could I do a check with two different trailers please?  Looking at buying a Transporter van and want to check what we might be able to tow with it.  Baring in mind pony is titchy and only weighs 350kg.

1 - What licence they hold - I would take my B + E test as guessing wouldn't be legal with just B
2 - 1610kg
3 - 2800kg
4 - GTW = 4500KG  max trailer weight = 2000kg
5 - Either Bateson derby lightweight (max gross weight 1700kg) or Ifor 506 (max gross weight 2600kg)
6 - 675kg or 920Kg

Thank you so much! 

Jess


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## ROG (8 October 2016)

JuniperZ said:



			I'm so happy to find this thread!  I've heard so many people say that you can't legally tow a trailer if it's MAM is over the car's towing limit - regardless of what weight you have in the trailer.  I couldn't find anything to back this up on the gov.uk website so was thoroughly confused!

Could I do a check with two different trailers please?  Looking at buying a Transporter van and want to check what we might be able to tow with it.  Baring in mind pony is titchy and only weighs 350kg.

1 - What licence they hold - I would take my B + E test as guessing wouldn't be legal with just B
2 - 1610kg
3 - 2800kg
4 - GTW = 4500KG  max trailer weight = 2000kg
5 - Either Bateson derby lightweight (max gross weight 1700kg) or Ifor 506 (max gross weight 2600kg)
6 - 675kg or 920Kg

Thank you so much! 

Jess
		
Click to expand...

With a 2800 GVW that leaves only 750kg max plated MAM for a trailer on a B licence so B+E rules for towing any horse trailer.


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## JuniperZ (8 October 2016)

ROG said:



			With a 2800 GVW that leaves only 750kg max plated MAM for a trailer on a B licence so B+E rules for towing any horse trailer.
		
Click to expand...

Yep thought that would be the case. would both those trailers be ok though with that vehicle and a B+E license?


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## ROG (8 October 2016)

JuniperZ said:



			Yep thought that would be the case. would both those trailers be ok though with that vehicle and a B+E license?
		
Click to expand...

yes


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## {97702} (9 October 2016)

Hi Rog, I will freely admit that I am getting myself confused (or being lazy??!!).... I've got a full B&E licence (I'm old, passed my test in 1988!!!) - can I tow a single horse weighing approx 550kg with a VW Passat Estate?  Kerbweight 1422kg  towing capacity 1500kg?  

I don't have a trailer yet - I don't like single horse trailers as I know they have a reputation for being unstable - so I strongly suspect the answer is no with any double trailer...


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## ROG (9 October 2016)

Lévrier;13384357 said:
			
		


			Hi Rog, I will freely admit that I am getting myself confused (or being lazy??!!).... I've got a full B&E licence (I'm old, passed my test in 1988!!!) - can I tow a single horse weighing approx 550kg with a VW Passat Estate?  Kerbweight 1422kg  towing capacity 1500kg?  

I don't have a trailer yet - I don't like single horse trailers as I know they have a reputation for being unstable - so I strongly suspect the answer is no with any trailer...
		
Click to expand...

Just make sure the weight of the empty trailer and whatever you load inside it do not exceed 1500 (or the plated weight of the trailer = likely to be higher than 1500) and you are good to go


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## {97702} (9 October 2016)

ROG said:



			Just make sure the weight of the empty trailer and whatever you load inside it do not exceed 1500 (or the plated weight of the trailer = likely to be higher than 1500) and you are good to go
		
Click to expand...

Is that gross weight or unladen weight? What are your thoughts on single horse trailers and stability please?


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## ROG (9 October 2016)

Lévrier;13384367 said:
			
		


			Is that gross weight or unladen weight? What are your thoughts on single horse trailers and stability please?
		
Click to expand...

actual weight of trailer + load in trailer must not exceed 1500

Single trailers are very stable


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## {97702} (9 October 2016)

Thank you


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## cavalier123 (15 October 2016)

Hi Rog,  I wonder if you would mind confirming if this setup would work please:

Car is Ford Mondeo 2.0L Estate and Horsebox would be Bateson Derby.  I think I have most, but not all of the figures.

1. B+E Licence
2. This is the one weight I can't find - neither in handbook or on vehicle....
3. GVW 2290
4. Gross Train Weight 4090
5. 1700 Gross weight
6. 675 Unladen weight

I will mostly be travelling one pony at approx 500Kg, but occasionally will want to take the two and combined they weigh probably 1000, so would be very close to what I think is the maximum towing capacity of vehicle at 1,800 Kg?  Is this really risky to be so close to the max?  I could get a different car maybe?  Only I need one that is very economical as will be only vehicle and I think the Mondeo seems to fit that requirement more so than others...

Thanks for your help  Any thoughts on more appropriate vehicle would be welcome too 

Thank you


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## ROG (16 October 2016)

cavalier123 said:



			Hi Rog,  I wonder if you would mind confirming if this setup would work please:

Car is Ford Mondeo 2.0L Estate and Horsebox would be Bateson Derby.  I think I have most, but not all of the figures.

1. B+E Licence
2. This is the one weight I can't find - neither in handbook or on vehicle....
3. GVW 2290
4. Gross Train Weight 4090
5. 1700 Gross weight
6. 675 Unladen weight

I will mostly be travelling one pony at approx 500Kg, but occasionally will want to take the two and combined they weigh probably 1000, so would be very close to what I think is the maximum towing capacity of vehicle at 1,800 Kg?  Is this really risky to be so close to the max?  I could get a different car maybe?  Only I need one that is very economical as will be only vehicle and I think the Mondeo seems to fit that requirement more so than others...

Thanks for your help  Any thoughts on more appropriate vehicle would be welcome too 

Thank you 

Click to expand...

Legal set up confirmed

1000 + 675 = 1675 so just inside max trailer MAM of 1700 - but very close to the max

The max actual limit here is 1700 not 1800 because the trailer plate of 1700 is less than the towing capacity of 1800

You can get trailers with a higher MAM than 1700 but they usually have a higher empty weight so you gain nothing
Example would be a trailer plated at 2400 with an empty weight of 900 leaving a max trailer load of 900 with a 1800 tow limit


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## cavalier123 (16 October 2016)

ROG said:



			Legal set up confirmed

1000 + 675 = 1675 so just inside max trailer MAM of 1700 - but very close to the max

The max actual limit here is 1700 not 1800 because the trailer plate of 1700 is less than the towing capacity of 1800

You can get trailers with a higher MAM than 1700 but they usually have a higher empty weight so you gain nothing
Example would be a trailer plated at 2400 with an empty weight of 900 leaving a max trailer load of 900 with a 1800 tow limit
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog!

Is it risky to load trailer to the max of it's MAM like that?  I wouldn't put anything else in it, apart from maybe 2kg haynets each, everything else could go in the car.  Maybe I need to look for a car that will tow more for the odd occasion I want to take the two ponies...


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## ROG (16 October 2016)

cavalier123 said:



			Thanks Rog!

Is it risky to load trailer to the max of it's MAM like that?  I wouldn't put anything else in it, apart from maybe 2kg haynets each, everything else could go in the car.  Maybe I need to look for a car that will tow more for the odd occasion I want to take the two ponies...
		
Click to expand...

Not risky at all - the weights listed are designed to be safe at their max


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## cavalier123 (16 October 2016)

ROG said:



			Not risky at all - the weights listed are designed to be safe at their max
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog!  So having checked weights, I've carried on reading about towing with a Mondeo Estate and finding posts saying not safe regardless of weights due to the vehicle being so long the distribution of the weight makes it not safe :-(  Is this true or myth, can anyone shed any light on this.  The Mondeo is an estate 2011 and I was planning on buying it tomorrow, now I'm not sure if I should....  Any opinions appreciated greatly!


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## ROG (16 October 2016)

cavalier123 said:



			Thanks Rog!  So having checked weights, I've carried on reading about towing with a Mondeo Estate and finding posts saying not safe regardless of weights due to the vehicle being so long the distribution of the weight makes it not safe :-(  Is this true or myth, can anyone shed any light on this.  The Mondeo is an estate 2011 and I was planning on buying it tomorrow, now I'm not sure if I should....  Any opinions appreciated greatly!
		
Click to expand...

First I have heard of this being an unsafe towing vehicle !


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## Tabbers (19 October 2016)

Hi all.  I have had numerous sleepless nights trying to work out the towing relations and have read advice with great interest.  I am a b licence holder and have just bought a new cheval liberte gold 1 single trailer after selling my lovely but old and expensive lorry.  I am terrified of taking a test so hope I can tow without it after some lessons.  I've received this advice from the National Towing and Trailer assoc (ntta) : You have raised a very valid point from your findings on the GOV site - it does indeed seem to go against what we are advising.

Please see the email below that we received from VOSA&#8217;s National Enforcement & Compliance Team: -

&#8220;Hi
In response to your email I would like to confirm that when a vehicle is towing a trailer, it is the actual weight of the vehicle, trailer and load which is important in determining a vehicle&#8217;s compliance with legal weight thresholds, not the potential carrying capacity. Therefore, it would be irrelevant whether the maximum permitted weight of the trailer was above that which the car can tow, it is only the 'in use' weight which can be considered.
Obviously this seeks to clarify weight thresholds only as other considerations may preclude for example category of driving licence held.
I hope this answers your query. If not please get back to me with further information.
Regards
Caroline
National Enforcement & Compliance Team
Operations Directorate&#8221;

So your trailer (unladen) weighs 720kg and horse say, 650kg, giving us a total 1370kg. You could technically then have a tow vehicle with a MAM of 2129kg to keep you under the 3500kg that your B licence allows.

Seems to go against the gov and other sites recommendations.  What are your thoughts?  

Thank you!


----------



## ROG (19 October 2016)

Tabbers said:



			Hi all.  I have had numerous sleepless nights trying to work out the towing relations and have read advice with great interest.  I am a b licence holder and have just bought a new cheval liberte gold 1 single trailer after selling my lovely but old and expensive lorry.  I am terrified of taking a test so hope I can tow without it after some lessons.  I've received this advice from the National Towing and Trailer assoc (ntta) : You have raised a very valid point from your findings on the GOV site - it does indeed seem to go against what we are advising.

Please see the email below that we received from VOSA&#8217;s National Enforcement & Compliance Team: -

&#8220;Hi
In response to your email I would like to confirm that when a vehicle is towing a trailer, it is the actual weight of the vehicle, trailer and load which is important in determining a vehicle&#8217;s compliance with legal weight thresholds, not the potential carrying capacity. Therefore, it would be irrelevant whether the maximum permitted weight of the trailer was above that which the car can tow, it is only the 'in use' weight which can be considered.
Obviously this seeks to clarify weight thresholds only as other considerations may preclude for example category of driving licence held.
I hope this answers your query. If not please get back to me with further information.
Regards
Caroline
National Enforcement & Compliance Team
Operations Directorate&#8221;

So your trailer (unladen) weighs 720kg and horse say, 650kg, giving us a total 1370kg. You could technically then have a tow vehicle with a MAM of 2129kg to keep you under the 3500kg that your B licence allows.

Seems to go against the gov and other sites recommendations.  What are your thoughts?  

Thank you!
		
Click to expand...

They are referring to weight laws not licence laws so they are correct in respect of that

They do rightly mention the consideration for the licences

When the DVSA (old VOSA) do a roadside check they can only prosecute for weight violations and the police if in attendance can prosecute for driving licence violations


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## ROG (19 October 2016)

Tabbers said:



			Hi all.  I have had numerous sleepless nights trying to work out the towing relations and have read advice with great interest.  I am a b licence holder and have just bought a new cheval liberte gold 1 single trailer after selling my lovely but old and expensive lorry.  I am terrified of taking a test so hope I can tow without it after some lessons.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.chevaltrailers.co.uk/single-mare-foal.html = is that your trailer ?

What is the weight of what you need to load into the trailer ?

What is the GVW and towing capacity of your current car/vehicle ?


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## Tabbers (19 October 2016)

Hi ROG.  Yes, that is the trailer. It weights 720kg and my horse weights 650.  Mam of trailer is 1600kg.  Car is a Freelander TD4 van 2002 model.  It's kerb weight is 1620,  gross weight 2020kg and towing capacity is 1800kg as far as I can work out.


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## ROG (19 October 2016)

Tabbers said:



			Hi ROG.  Yes, that is the trailer. It weights 720kg and my horse weights 650.  Mam of trailer is 1600kg.  Car is a Freelander TD4 van 2002 model.  It's kerb weight is 1620,  gross weight 2020kg and towing capacity is 1800kg as far as I can work out.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the relevant figures

GVW of 2020 leaves 1480 for the trailer MAM
Down plating trailer from 1600 to 1480 with an empty weight of 720 leaves 760 for the trailer load

Why did you not get it down plated at point of sale if it was new from a dealer ?


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## Tabbers (19 October 2016)

I asked for it to be down plated but the dealer said it didn't need to be and directed me to the NTTA who gave me the same advice.  I then purchased the trailer based on this advice.  I have since found your clinic and details on Gov site and went back to NTTA to clarify (original post detail). It seems I'm a victim of poor advice.  Can I still down plate? Thanks again.


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## ROG (19 October 2016)

Tabbers said:



			Can I still down plate? Thanks again.
		
Click to expand...

YES - contact manufacturer or dealer where you bought it - preferably the dealer so you can point then to this thread !


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## Tabbers (19 October 2016)

I really appreciate your advice.  Helps me to understand why I was getting such conflicting information!


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## Tabbers (24 October 2016)

ROG said:



			YES - contact manufacturer or dealer where you bought it - preferably the dealer so you can point then to this thread !
		
Click to expand...

ROG - I have been pointed to this quote on the Gov website (https://www.gov.uk/towing-rules): _A full car licence already lets you tow trailers weighing no more than 750kg. You can also tow heavier trailers with a car as long as the total weight of vehicle and trailer isnt more than 3,500kg._
No mention of MAM!  If you then follow the checker tools it talks about the MAM.  Very confusing!


----------



## ROG (24 October 2016)

Tabbers said:



			ROG - I have been pointed to this quote on the Gov website (https://www.gov.uk/towing-rules): _A full car licence already lets you tow trailers weighing no more than 750kg. You can also tow heavier trailers with a car as long as the total weight of vehicle and trailer isn&#8217;t more than 3,500kg._
No mention of MAM!  If you then follow the checker tools it talks about the MAM.  Very confusing!
		
Click to expand...

Some parts of the Gov sites either missed out the word MAM of the caveat stating that all weights are MAM ones - I have pointed this out to them many times and ...... they changed nothing !!

Is it any wonder that this thread is now approaching 3000 posts


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## Tabbers (24 October 2016)

Absolutely!  I also wonder how many poor people are out there driving and thinking they are legal when actually they are falling foul of the law.  I am a person who researches everything and Im glad that I did in this case.  You would have thought that the information given by the dealer and the National Towing association is right...  Ho hum!!


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## Michen (24 October 2016)

ROG

Any ideas. If I were to buy a 3.5 lorry which had no MOT, how could I get it to a garage (assuming I can't get insurance for it with no MOT). Can garages pick them up on trade plates with no mot or tax?


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## ROG (24 October 2016)

Michen said:



			ROG

Any ideas. If I were to buy a 3.5 lorry which had no MOT, how could I get it to a garage (assuming I can't get insurance for it with no MOT). Can garages pick them up on trade plates with no mot or tax?
		
Click to expand...

Odd Q for the towing clinic !

Trade platers can usually do that ok or it can be taken on a LGV transporter - I have also seen similar on a transporter trailer being towed by a large van


----------



## Michen (24 October 2016)

ROG said:



			Odd Q for the towing clinic !

Trade platers can usually do that ok or it can be taken on a LGV transporter - I have also seen similar on a transporter trailer being towed by a large van
		
Click to expand...

Just needed your attention! Thanks ROG


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## ROG (5 November 2016)

Clannad48 said:



			Ok so this may seem like a rant but it is really desperation. I am looking for a car/trailer combination that my daughter can drive on a B licence. OK so the ranty type things - no she will not do a trailer test - don't ask - too long to go into - don't tell me to look at carleasing site - it only deals with GVW of new cars and if I could afford a new car I would buy a horsebox.

I am losing the will to live - I just really need someone to tell me what they tow with if towing an IW505R with a 500kg horse in on a B licence only. There will only be one horse with the partitions taken out of the trailer and full width breech/breast bars. The car HAS to be an automatic. The budget for the car is about £6k

Parkers and other websites don't always give the GVW - the local car dealers are sick of me asking them to check the gvw on cars they have for sale. My tabs at the top of the laptop screen are now so minute as I try to computate car weights etc that I can't read them. PLEASE can someone help before I either kill the daughter or myself.
		
Click to expand...

Assuming 505R is same as 505 then it is 905 empty needing a payload of say 545 totalling 1450 which means it needs down plating via contact with IW from 2340 to 1450 incurring a cost of about £50 along with a drill and a pop rivet gun

At 1450 MAM trailer leaves 2050 for the vehicle GVW 

Some Xtrails are 2050 GVW with 1800 tow limit

Some Skoda Octavia 4x4 are also under 2050 GVW

These are all details from the carleasing site but also are generally ok for older used models


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## ROG (5 November 2016)

Clannad48 said:



			ROG  now I've been going by gross vehicle weight, is this the same as 'Max Permissable Mass'  which seems to be on most new car V5

Been to see a Volkswagen Golf - with a MPM of  2020  but the tow capacity is only 1400kg 

Click to expand...

Not enough tow capacity 

Max permissible mass/MAM/GVW/MTPLM = all the same thing


----------



## Clannad48 (5 November 2016)

Thanks ROG - I'll just have to keep on looking    I hate car shopping


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## Clannad48 (6 November 2016)

ROG

Sadly disappointed again today - went to look at a vehicle Skoda Octavia Estate 1.8 TSI Laurin + Klement  seemed fine on paper - the carleasing site quoted a GVW of 1830 with a towing capacity of 1800kg.  Car was in perfect condition, within budget and both myself and my daughter liked it. However according to the V5 the actual figures are a GVW of 2000 with a towing capacity of 1300kg.  I am losing the will to live.


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## ROG (6 November 2016)

Clannad48 said:



			ROG

Sadly disappointed again today - went to look at a vehicle Skoda Octavia Estate 1.8 TSI Laurin + Klement  seemed fine on paper - the carleasing site quoted a GVW of 1830 with a towing capacity of 1800kg.  Car was in perfect condition, within budget and both myself and my daughter liked it. However according to the V5 the actual figures are a GVW of 2000 with a towing capacity of 1300kg.  I am losing the will to live.
		
Click to expand...

There are many models in each so you probably got the worst for that particular model - keep searching

Or get a lighter trailer ........... if that is an option


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## cavalier123 (8 November 2016)

Hi Rog,  You advised me on my weights and I now have my Ford Mondeo for towing and need to get a tow bar - this raises another load of questions which I don't know the answer to.... One tow bar fitter mentioned electrics specific for my car that wire into the car computer system for stabilising, another fitter mentioned not worth bothering with.... can you give me some impartial advice, is it worth getting the specific car electrics (cost of an extra £150) or not?  Also, not sure which towbar, does it make a difference swan neck or flange (don't want detachable...) and maybe I want an anti snaking device???  Thank you!


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## ROG (8 November 2016)

cavalier123 said:



			Hi Rog,  You advised me on my weights and I now have my Ford Mondeo for towing and need to get a tow bar - this raises another load of questions which I don't know the answer to.... One tow bar fitter mentioned electrics specific for my car that wire into the car computer system for stabilising, another fitter mentioned not worth bothering with.... can you give me some impartial advice, is it worth getting the specific car electrics (cost of an extra £150) or not?  Also, not sure which towbar, does it make a difference swan neck or flange (don't want detachable...) and maybe I want an anti snaking device???  Thank you!
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately this is not my area of expertise 

My expertise is limited to weights, licences and training


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## cavalier123 (8 November 2016)

No worries, thanks anyway!  

Have done some more digging and seems I won't need car specific electrics, or anti sway, so questions answered  

Now off to get tow bar fitted.  

Exciting times, not much more to do and we will be mobile!


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## HappyAl (25 November 2016)

Hi Rog, 

I wondered if you could help me. I'm looking at upgrading my trailer and would love to get an Ifor Eventa (with live in) or the Show Treka. 

My car is a 4x4 Kia Sorento (2006) 2.5 manual
Unbraked Towing Weight	750kg
Braked Towing Weight	2800kg

Ifor Eventa - Gross weight - 3500kg
Unladen - 1809kg

Oh.. and I have a B&E licence and will be towing only one horse (if that makes any difference)?! 

Thanks so much for any help.


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## ROG (25 November 2016)

HappyAl said:



			Hi Rog, 

I wondered if you could help me. I'm looking at upgrading my trailer and would love to get an Ifor Eventa (with live in) or the Show Treka. 

My car is a 4x4 Kia Sorento (2006) 2.5 manual
Unbraked Towing Weight	750kg
Braked Towing Weight	2800kg

Ifor Eventa - Gross weight - 3500kg
Unladen - 1809kg

Oh.. and I have a B&E licence and will be towing only one horse (if that makes any difference)?! 

Thanks so much for any help. 

Click to expand...

B+E = ok
Max tow weight 2800
Empty trailer = 1809
Max load for trailer = 991 kg


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## HappyAl (25 November 2016)

Thank you so much, that's really helpful


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## ROG (24 December 2016)

Xmas bump


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## ROG (28 December 2016)

I am having a quiet time ........... wink


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## SOS (3 January 2017)

May I PM you a question regarding licensing ROG please? If the answer is yes how do I do this?

Apologies I am fairly new to the forum!


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## ROG (3 January 2017)

saddleoversofa said:



			May I PM you a question regarding licensing ROG please? If the answer is yes how do I do this?

Apologies I am fairly new to the forum!
		
Click to expand...

Do not do PMs
Prefer to answer all questions openly on here in case I make an error - if I give someone duff info then others can point that out


----------



## SOS (3 January 2017)

Oh okay, sorry for that.

I have a Landrover Defender 90 2.4 Litre as my vehicle, I am looking for a set up which would be possible to tow one, very pcassionaly two 16hh horses in a trailer. I am post 1997 licensing and therefore need to sit my trailer test. 

Here are the questions I have:
 Can my car legally tow two horses and a trailer without being over the weight limit? 
 Can you advise what trailer would be best for this?
 As a just under 21 year old, what are the chances of me actually getting insured for this set up? 
 I have no experience towing but have oppurtunity to practice on private land on a concrete yard with a trailer if needed but would be looking at lessons obviously... if I did obtain a trailer before passing can you drive it on L plates and if so does the person need a B+E license or can they just had 'grandad rights'?

Thankyou ever so much for reading.


----------



## ROG (3 January 2017)

saddleoversofa said:



			Oh okay, sorry for that.

I have a Landrover Defender 90 2.4 Litre as my vehicle, I am looking for a set up which would be possible to tow one, very pcassionaly two 16hh horses in a trailer. I am post 1997 licensing and therefore need to sit my trailer test. 

Here are the questions I have:
&#8226; Can my car legally tow two horses and a trailer without being over the weight limit? 
&#8226; Can you advise what trailer would be best for this?
&#8226; As a just under 21 year old, what are the chances of me actually getting insured for this set up? 
&#8226; I have no experience towing but have oppurtunity to practice on private land on a concrete yard with a trailer if needed but would be looking at lessons obviously... if I did obtain a trailer before passing can you drive it on L plates and if so does the person need a B+E license or can they just had 'grandad rights'?

Thankyou ever so much for reading.
		
Click to expand...


*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


I need to know the top two figures (4 listed) on the vehicle weight plate which is usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame
You may be able to also get what I need from the keepers DVLA V5 form - max permissible mass + max towing weight

Once I have the figures I can help further


Type of trailer + Insurance = I have no idea so perhaps a separate post on the main forum will help on those issues
My knowledge is on driving licences and weights in regards to towing


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## Whoopit (4 January 2017)

I'm a bit confused about the below quote (from Gov website). I passed my driving test 05-Mar-2001 and recently updated my address on my driving licence. I'm sure I had BE on it (I've never taken an extra licence test) and this one doesn't. Like an idiot, I didn't copy the original licence to check (Dad years ago came back with just a car licence on it and he has a licence for literally everything!)

Might I have had the BE on it or am I reading the below incorrectly?? I know I still need to do a test to tow all-in over 3.5t.

Category B - if you passed your test on or after 1 January 1997
You can drive vehicles up to 3,500kg MAM with up to 8 passenger seats (with a trailer up to 750kg).
You can also tow heavier trailers if the total MAM of the vehicle and trailer isnt more than 3,500kg.
You can drive motor tricycles with a power output higher than 15kW if you are over 21 years old.
Physically disabled drivers with provisional category B entitlement will also have provisional entitlement to ride category A1 or A motor tricycles.
Able-bodied drivers can no longer ride motor tricycles with a provisional category B licence.
Category B auto
You can drive a category B vehicle - but only an automatic one.
Category BE
You can drive a vehicle with a MAM of 3,500kg with a trailer.
The size of the trailer depends on when you passed your test. If you passed your test:
o	before 19 January 2013 you can tow any size trailer (itll say category B+E on your licence)
o	on or after 19 January 2013 you can tow a trailer with a MAM of up to 3,500kg


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## Archie07 (4 January 2017)

Looking at the Dacia Duster for towing a very light single horse trailer and a 550kg pony on a B licence.  

Duster specs:
Kerb weight (excluding driver): 1,325kg
GTW: 3,375kg
Max towing weight braked (driver only): 1,500kg
Max towing weight unbraked (driver only): 695kg


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## ROG (4 January 2017)

Whoopit said:



			I'm a bit confused about the below quote (from Gov website). I passed my driving test 05-Mar-2001 and recently updated my address on my driving licence. I'm sure I had BE on it (I've never taken an extra licence test) and this one doesn't. Like an idiot, I didn't copy the original licence to check (Dad years ago came back with just a car licence on it and he has a licence for literally everything!)

Might I have had the BE on it
		
Click to expand...

You never had BE on it 

The rules for B licence towing have never changed no mater when it was obtained
Those with pre 97 licences were given a free B+E and other categories


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## ROG (4 January 2017)

Archie07 said:



			Looking at the Dacia Duster for towing a very light single horse trailer and a 550kg pony on a B licence.  

Duster specs:
Kerb weight (excluding driver): 1,325kg
GTW: 3,375kg
Max towing weight braked (driver only): 1,500kg
Max towing weight unbraked (driver only): 695kg
		
Click to expand...

Is that what it says on the DVLA V5 keepers form ?


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## ROG (4 January 2017)

Archie07 said:



			Looking at the Dacia Duster for towing a very light single horse trailer and a 550kg pony on a B licence.  

Duster specs:
Kerb weight (excluding driver): 1,325kg
GTW: 3,375kg
Max towing weight braked (driver only): 1,500kg
Max towing weight unbraked (driver only): 695kg
		
Click to expand...

Which model from this list is it ? = https://www.carleasingmadesimple.com/data/dacia/duster/gross-vehicle-weight/


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## ROG (4 January 2017)

DACIA DUSTER towing on a B licence

You could have a IW HB401/3 plated at 1600 but as it is about 780 empty and the max tow for the Duster is 1500 then the max load for the trailer will be 720kg so a 550 horse is no problem


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## ROG (4 January 2017)

Archie07 said:



			Looking at the Dacia Duster for towing a very light single horse trailer and a 550kg pony on a B licence.  

Duster specs:
Kerb weight (excluding driver): 1,325kg
GTW: 3,375kg
Max towing weight braked (driver only): 1,500kg
Max towing weight unbraked (driver only): 695kg
		
Click to expand...

The 'driver only' bit confused me and I have just figured out that it means nothing


I think this is your model weight specs

Weight and Capacities

Gross vehicle weight 1875 kg	
Max loading weight 550 kg	 
Max towing weight - braked 1500 kg	
Max towing weight - unbraked 695 kg	
Unladen weight 1325 kg


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## tallyho! (4 January 2017)

Not bad for those Dusters...


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## Archie07 (4 January 2017)

Sorry ROG, thanks! The Duster looks like a good option then for a B licence single trailer...


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## ROG (4 January 2017)

Archie07 said:



			Sorry ROG, thanks! The Duster looks like a good option then for a B licence single trailer...
		
Click to expand...

it does providing the trailer plated weight is not over 1600 - if it is then it will need down plating by the trailer manufacturer


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## ROG (4 January 2017)

POST NUMBER 3000 so this one is mine as its easy to refer to

*Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained*

Licensing laws are based on plated weights not actual weights.

GVW, MAM or MTPLM means maximum permissible legal weight when fully loaded.

The towing vehicle GVW can be obtained from the V5 registered keepers form listed as maximum permissible mass, the handbook, or a plate somewhere on the vehicle &#8211; usually under bonnet or hidden in a door frame &#8211; the top figure is always the GVW.

Towing capacity (manufacturer actual towing weight limit) &#8211; not legally enforceable in the RTA but based on safety and engine power under certain conditions.

GTW - the max legal weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights.
In most cases, the GVW added to the towing capacity will also be the GTW.

The trailer info can be obtained from a plate on the trailer, by calling the trailer manufacturer, or on the internet. If no plate then the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating  will be used by the authorities to determine the MAM to a maximum of 3500 even if the total is more than that.

There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to cope with the plated MAM of a trailer but there are plenty of internet myths on this.

The only legally recognised way to down plate a trailer of 3500 kgs MAM or less is to contact the trailer manufacturer usually at very little cost.

The laws/rules are these for both B+E & B licence towing.
The GVW of the vehicle must not be exceeded (RTA law)
The GTW must not be exceeded (RTA law)
The plated MAM of the trailer must not be exceeded (RTA law).
The towing capacity should not be exceeded (can be prosecutable under C&U regulation 100).
The lower of the trailer MAM or the towing capacity must/should be used as the maximum actual weight when loaded.

For B licence towing with a trailer over 750 kgs MAM.
The vehicle GVW added to the trailer MAM must not exceed 3500 kg (RTA law)

EXAMPLE
Vehicle
GVW 2050 kg
Towing capacity 1700 kg
GTW 3750 kg

Trailer
Un-laden/empty 700 kg
MAM 2000 kg

For B+E licence towing the trailer can be loaded with 1000 kgs because 1000+700=1700 kg which is the towing capacity.

For B licence towing the trailer would need down plating from 2000 kgs to a maximum of 1450 kg.
The reason is that 1450+2050=3500 which is the maximum allowed for B licence towing.
The trailer can be loaded with 750 kg because 750+700=1450 kg which is the trailer MAM.

Caravan weights work on a slightly different system as they take into account the recommended (not legal) 85% towing advice.

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
*VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions* = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqw6Ua3kmFc&feature=related - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
*VIDEO - Reversing Exercise* = http://www.drivesafedriving.co.uk/b_e_rev_movie.htm - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*DSA REVERSING TEST AREA DIAGRAM* = https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._PCV_BE_manoeuvring_exercise_area_diagram.pdf 
*VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up* = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao_5KOe8dGg&feature=related - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

The trailer must now be loaded with 600 kgs of sand bags or a 1000 kgs water IBC for the test so most companies are now training with that weight in the trailer = https://www.gov.uk/new-laden-testing-rules-for-driving-test-vehicles 

*Well explained here* = http://www.trailertraining-wales.co.uk/test.html 

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos

This is interesting BUT NOT RECOMMENDED &#8211; a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test that means you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself. 
*DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS* =  http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_4022521 
Remember that the required 600 kgs of sand bags or 1 x 1000 IBC filled with water will be required in the trailer and the load must be secure.



Please post with as much of this info as you can if you want me to answer a specific query - weights in kg please 

LICENCE
B or B+E =

VEHICLE
GVW =
Towing capacity = 

TRAILER
Un-laden/empty = 
MAM =


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## ROG (4 January 2017)

WHAT A GREAT B LICENCE TOWING SET UP IDEA (for those without B+E) WITH ONE HORSE

DUSTER ESTATE 1.5 dCi 110 Ambiance 5dr 4X4 = https://www.carleasingmadesimple.com/car-leasing/dacia/duster-estate/66246/
Gross vehicle weight 1875 kg	
Max towing weight - braked 1500 kg	
Unladen weight 1325 kg

IFOR WILLIAMS HB403 TRAILER = http://www.iwt.co.uk/products/horsebox/hb403/?tab=spec#tab
MAM (GVW) 1600
EMPTY 767

Total MAM/GVW = 1875+1600=3475 so under the max 3500 for B towing

MAX LOAD FOR TRAILER = 733  because of the 1500 tow capacity of the DUSTER


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## Archie07 (4 January 2017)

ROG said:



			WHAT A GREAT B LICENCE TOWING SET UP IDEA (for those without B+E) WITH ONE HORSE

DUSTER ESTATE 1.5 dCi 110 Ambiance 5dr 4X4 = https://www.carleasingmadesimple.com/car-leasing/dacia/duster-estate/66246/
Gross vehicle weight 1875 kg	
Max towing weight - braked 1500 kg	
Unladen weight 1325 kg

IFOR WILLIAMS HB403 TRAILER = http://www.iwt.co.uk/products/horsebox/hb403/?tab=spec#tab
MAM (GVW) 1600
EMPTY 767

Total MAM/GVW = 1875+1600=3475 so under the max 3500 for B towing

MAX LOAD FOR TRAILER = 733  because of the 1500 tow capacity of the DUSTER
		
Click to expand...

I'm loving this Duster more and more!!

Just wondering, alongside the 4x4 there is a 4x2 Duster model, would that also be acceptable?


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## ROG (4 January 2017)

Archie07 said:



			I'm loving this Duster more and more!!

Just wondering, alongside the 4x4 there is a 4x2 Duster model, would that also be acceptable?
		
Click to expand...

yes but consider what surfaces you need to tow on


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## phnates (10 January 2017)

Can I legally tow an empty iFor Williams Box trailer which is plated for 3500kg capacity with my Honda CRV which is legally allowed to tow 1500KG?

The trailer is empty and weighs 1000KG

My understanding is that as long as I do not exceed the MAM or GROSS TRAIN WEIGHT in old money is that I'm well within the law.

This caused quite a debate in our local this eve, with many saying it's an illegal combo which I find hard to fathom.

Driving licence held since 1970

Thanks


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## ROG (11 January 2017)

phnates said:



			Can I legally tow an empty iFor Williams Box trailer which is plated for 3500kg capacity with my Honda CRV which is legally allowed to tow 1500KG?

The trailer is empty and weighs 1000KG

My understanding is that as long as I do not exceed the MAM or GROSS TRAIN WEIGHT in old money is that I'm well within the law.

This caused quite a debate in our local this eve, with many saying it's an illegal combo which I find hard to fathom.

Driving licence held since 1970

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

You have a B+E licence = ok
The max actual weight your vehicle can tow is 1500
The actual weight of the trailer is 1000
That means you can load a max of 500 into the trailer and be legal

What the trailer is plated at has no bearing on this with a B+E licence as long as with a 500 load it is plated at 1500+

There is no law or rule which states that the max plated MAM of a trailer cannot exceed the max towing capacity of a vehicle or the max plated GTW - plenty of internet myths though !
£1000.00 to the first person who can find such a law or rule = seriously

The best myth is the one where a person says that it has the capacity to exceed the max tow limit ..... well, my car has the capacity to do 70 in a 30 limit but I never seem to get done for that when doing 30mph ...... LOL


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## ArcticFox (11 January 2017)

sorry posted on the wrong thread


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## ROG (11 January 2017)

Going to do replies on the HHO LGV CLINIC thread


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## phnates (12 January 2017)

ROG said:



			You have a B+E licence = ok
The max actual weight your vehicle can tow is 1500
The actual weight of the trailer is 1000
That means you can load a max of 500 into the trailer and be legal

What the trailer is plated at has no bearing on this with a B+E licence as long as with a 500 load it is plated at 1500+

There is no law or rule which states that the max plated MAM of a trailer cannot exceed the max towing capacity of a vehicle or the max plated GTW - plenty of internet myths though !
£1000.00 to the first person who can find such a law or rule = seriously

The best myth is the one where a person says that it has the capacity to exceed the max tow limit ..... well, my car has the capacity to do 70 in a 30 limit but I never seem to get done for that when doing 30mph ...... LOL
		
Click to expand...



Thanks for the reply ROG, I emailed DVSA for clarification and their response was as clear as mud to me, see what you think:

_Good Morning, 

Thank you for your email enquiry dated 11th January 2017, concerning towing regulations. 

Please find attached a link to towing regulation on the GOV.UK website. Your vehicle will have a manufacture plate showing the DTW which is the maximum combination of vehicle plus trailer.  It is not the weight of the load it is the total capacity of the trailer that will need to be considered. 
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car 


For driving licence details you will need to contact the DVLA drivers section on the following number 0300 790 6801. 

I hope this information has assisted you with your enquiry, but if you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us again. 

Kind Regards, 

Elizabeth O'Connell
Customer Service Centre Agent 
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency | The Ellipse, Padley Road, Swansea, SA1 8AN
Phone: 0300 123 9000 |_


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## ROG (12 January 2017)

DVLA deal with licences
DVSA deal with weight laws


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## phnates (12 January 2017)

ROG said:



			DVLA deal with licences
DVSA deal with weight laws
		
Click to expand...

I'm not following, she was from DVSA?


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## ROG (12 January 2017)

phnates said:



			I'm not following, she was from DVSA?
		
Click to expand...

Could be each of them is going to pass the buck to the other as it can be a licence/weight issue

I have had this before many times so my solution is always to email my MP who in turn get a definitive reply from the DfT
DVSA & DVLA are both under the DfT


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## Sags_Deer (16 January 2017)

Hello Rog

Thoughts please.

Honda crv 2.2 diesel max tow 2000

So do I go with

Bateson Ascot unladen 925 can take over 16.2 horses BUT I will add I am only taking one horse 16hh 500kg.

or do I go with the
Ifor HB505 up to 16.2 in height but trailer it a bit lighter in weight at 905 kgs.

Many thanks


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## ROG (16 January 2017)

Sags_Deer said:



			Hello Rog

Thoughts please.

Honda crv 2.2 diesel max tow 2000

So do I go with

Bateson Ascot unladen 925 can take over 16.2 horses BUT I will add I am only taking one horse 16hh 500kg.

or do I go with the
Ifor HB505 up to 16.2 in height but trailer it a bit lighter in weight at 905 kgs.

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

Cannot help as my knowledge is on licences and towing weight laws


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## Sags_Deer (16 January 2017)

Ah ok thanks


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## lilly1 (16 January 2017)

Hi ROG.

What about axle weights? This link talks about them on top of the MAM and GTW https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...-guide-to-towing-non-articulated-trailers.pdf


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## lilly1 (16 January 2017)

I'm confused now if I can legally tow.  I have a Freelander which has a MAM of 2050kg and a max tow weight of 2000kg. 

My trailer has a MAM of 1400kg and unladen it is 590kg.  

However the axle weights of the Freelander are max rear axle load:1120kg and a max front axle 1050kg.  Are these added up together? I'm back to being very confused again :-(/


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## ROG (17 January 2017)

lilly1 said:



			Hi ROG.

What about axle weights? This link talks about them on top of the MAM and GTW https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...-guide-to-towing-non-articulated-trailers.pdf

Click to expand...

In what way ?

If you mean how do you check you are not over an axle weight then a weighbridge is the only way to check that


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## ROG (17 January 2017)

lilly1 said:



			I'm confused now if I can legally tow.  I have a Freelander which has a MAM of 2050kg and a max tow weight of 2000kg. 

My trailer has a MAM of 1400kg and unladen it is 590kg.  

However the axle weights of the Freelander are max rear axle load:1120kg and a max front axle 1050kg.  Are these added up together? I'm back to being very confused again :-(/
		
Click to expand...

The axle weights will always total more than the GVW so as to allow for some flexibility for the placement of the load

Axle weights do not come into driver licencing rules

If you have a B licence then your set up is legal
GVW 2050 + trailer MAM 1400 = 3450 total so under the B licence max of 3500
Your trailer is 590 empty so allows for a trailer load of 810

590 is a very light trailer !! - what trailer is it ?


If you check the weight plate on the trailer you will find the two axle weights will also add up to more than the MAM
On a down plated trailer the axle weights will total much more than the MAM


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## lilly1 (17 January 2017)

Thanks ROG. Do the pulling vehicle axles comes in to it?


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## lilly1 (17 January 2017)

Trailer is a Requisite 75. http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1061


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## ROG (17 January 2017)

lilly1 said:



			Thanks ROG. Do the pulling vehicle axles comes in to it?
		
Click to expand...

Only in so far as each axle must not be overloaded - same as the trailer

If the axles were loaded to their max then the GVW/MAM weight would be breached so then illegal



lilly1 said:



			Trailer is a Requisite 75. http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/trailer/1061

Click to expand...

Nice trailer - are they still being made ?


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## chestnuttyy (19 January 2017)

Please can you tell me if this setup is legal?

1 - What licence they hold - B 
 2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1530 (Minimum Kerbweight)
 3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2105
 4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2000
 5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 1395 (Ifor 401 downplated)
 6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 770kg


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## ROG (19 January 2017)

chestnuttyy said:



			Please can you tell me if this setup is legal?

1 - What licence they hold - B 
 2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1530 (Minimum Kerbweight)
 3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2105
 4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2000
 5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 1395 (Ifor 401 downplated)
 6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 770kg
		
Click to expand...

LEGAL
2105+1395=3500 so right on the B licence limit

Max load for trailer = 625


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## chestnuttyy (19 January 2017)

ROG said:



			LEGAL
2105+1395=3500 so right on the B licence limit

Max load for trailer = 625
		
Click to expand...

Nice to know I'm getting good at this!!! Pony was around 560kg when last on scales (height of summer) so I'm fine load-wise


----------



## reenae (25 January 2017)

Hi ROG,
Please could I check with you that I've done my calculations correctly for towing WITHOUT a B+E Licence?

Kia Sportage KX-3 gross weight 2140kg
403 Ifor Williams trailer - down plated from 1600kg to 1360kg
Horse weight therefore MAX 593kg (as unladen weight of trailer 767kg)

I just want to ensure I've got this all correct as there is so much confusing information out there.

Thanks!


----------



## ROG (25 January 2017)

reenae said:



			Hi ROG,
Please could I check with you that I've done my calculations correctly for towing WITHOUT a B+E Licence?

Kia Sportage KX-3 gross weight 2140kg
403 Ifor Williams trailer - down plated from 1600kg to 1360kg
Horse weight therefore MAX 593kg (as unladen weight of trailer 767kg)

I just want to ensure I've got this all correct as there is so much confusing information out there.

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

PERFECT for B towing


----------



## reenae (25 January 2017)

Thank you!


----------



## chestnuttyy (26 January 2017)

chestnuttyy said:



			Please can you tell me if this setup is legal?

1 - What licence they hold - B 
 2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1530 (Minimum Kerbweight)
 3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2105
 4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2000
 5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 1395 (Ifor 401 downplated)
 6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 770kg
		
Click to expand...


Hi Rog, 

Got my weights slightly out, should actually be...

1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1450 
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2035
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2000
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 1420 (Ifor 401 downplated)
 6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 770kg

Horse is circa 550KG

All ok?!


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## ROG (26 January 2017)

chestnuttyy said:



			Hi Rog, 

Got my wieght slightly out, should actually be...

1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1450 
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2035
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2000
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 1420 (Ifor 401 downplated)
 6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 770kg

Horse is circa 550KG
		
Click to expand...

B licence so legal max total GVW/MAM = 3500

GVW 2035 + MAM 1420 = 3455

LEGAL for B towing

Max trailer load = 1420-770=650


----------



## chestnuttyy (26 January 2017)

ROG said:



			B licence so legal max total GVW/MAM = 3500

GVW 2035 + MAM 1420 = 3455

LEGAL for B towing

Max trailer load = 1420-770=650
		
Click to expand...

You're a star, thank you


----------



## rachi20x (30 January 2017)

Hi there Rog! I haven't been active on this forum in ages, but have recently purchased a trailer. My lovely boyfriend has his B+E and drives his defender 110 so no problems when he's available. However, he is due to join the marines in September! Well obviously with him being away I will have even more time to go on outings with my little cob. Unfortunately we are both young- 22 and not living together. Chances are his parents will make use of the landy while he's away and I highly doubt I could borrow it (with it being rather pricey and sought after these days...). 

I am trying to do some research if my Mum's (who is pre 1997 license holding) volvo xc60 AWD manual could tow my trailer.... 

1) BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle- is this the kerb weight?? if so the volvo website is saying 1879kg. 
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle ??? It's an '11 plate if that helps?
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle- towing capacity 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres- old trailer- bahill (but well looked after)- i bought new tyres last week and if i believe correctly each tyre had a load rating of 700kg so x4= 2800kg? (EDIT- looking at other people's MAM, mine can't be right... will do some research re the trailer)
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer. Can't find this as bahill are no longer in existence but it's a double. I've been advised it weighs no more than 900kg. 

Could it tow? Also if I could be insured on this car can I get away with towing on my B license? Not the end of the world, my Mum is happy to be a pony taxi. 

If not I will have to consider trading in my lovely little jimny for a bigger 4x4 that can tow my trailer and pony!

I hope I've included the right info!! many thanks!


----------



## ROG (30 January 2017)

rachi20x said:



			Hi there Rog! I haven't been active on this forum in ages, but have recently purchased a trailer. My lovely boyfriend has his B+E and drives his defender 110 so no problems when he's available. However, he is due to join the marines in September! Well obviously with him being away I will have even more time to go on outings with my little cob. Unfortunately we are both young- 22 and not living together. Chances are his parents will make use of the landy while he's away and I highly doubt I could borrow it (with it being rather pricey and sought after these days...). 

I am trying to do some research if my Mum's (who is pre 1997 license holding) volvo xc60 AWD manual could tow my trailer.... 

1) BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle- is this the kerb weight?? if so the volvo website is saying 1879kg. 
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle ??? It's an '11 plate if that helps?
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle- towing capacity 1800kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres- old trailer- bahill (but well looked after)- i bought new tyres last week and if i believe correctly each tyre had a load rating of 700kg so x4= 2800kg? (EDIT- looking at other people's MAM, mine can't be right... will do some research re the trailer)
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer. Can't find this as bahill are no longer in existence but it's a double. I've been advised it weighs no more than 900kg. 

Could it tow? Also if I could be insured on this car can I get away with towing on my B license? Not the end of the world, my Mum is happy to be a pony taxi. 

If not I will have to consider trading in my lovely little jimny for a bigger 4x4 that can tow my trailer and pony!

I hope I've included the right info!! many thanks!
		
Click to expand...

Do YOU have B+E ?


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## ROG (30 January 2017)

Volvo is about 2500 GVW and trailer is 2800 MAM so that = 5300 which is way over the 3500 max for B licence towing

No probs with B+E as long as no more than 900 is loaded into the trailer

MUM can supervise you driving it with L plates and does not need to be insured unless MUM is driving


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## rachi20x (31 January 2017)

I do not. However the mother is indeed happy to play taxi  a few outings next year until I finish university. I currently do a lot of motorway driving to uni so it's not very economical to fork out for a towing vehicle and to do my BE just yet. 
That can be on the agenda once I've graduated. 

Thanks Rog, good to know the Volvo will help us in the interim.


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## ROG (31 January 2017)

rachi20x said:



			I do not. However the mother is indeed happy to play taxi  a few outings next year until I finish university. I currently do a lot of motorway driving to uni so it's not very economical to fork out for a towing vehicle and to do my BE just yet. 
That can be on the agenda once I've graduated. 

Thanks Rog, good to know the Volvo will help us in the interim.
		
Click to expand...

Are you going to tow it or are you going to make poor MUM do it ?


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## rachi20x (31 January 2017)

My poor MUM has assured me she is happy to, she used to ferry my old pony and our old single trailer around when i was younger! Of course I would show my gratitude with all the red wine and cheese (after the driving of course!)

I would like to stick the L plates on and have her as a passenger so i can get some practice in. That would give us an option of sharing the driving too.


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## ROG (31 January 2017)

rachi20x said:



			My poor MUM has assured me she is happy to, she used to ferry my old pony and our old single trailer around when i was younger! Of course I would show my gratitude with all the red wine and cheese (after the driving of course!)

I would like to stick the L plates on and have her as a passenger so i can get some practice in. That would give us an option of sharing the driving too.
		
Click to expand...

Ask MUMs insurer how much to have you fully comp on the car and then YOU do all the towing and reversing because that will be great practice for any future B+E test as well as keeping the cost right down - possibly do training AM and test PM


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## rachi20x (31 January 2017)

Great shout Rog. Will speak to her later and get onto it. Thank you.


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## flat3 (8 February 2017)

Hi ROG

I'd be grateful for some advice on my situation.

I have a Nissan Qashqai (https://www.carleasingmadesimple.com/car-leasing/nissan/qashqai-hatchback/73659/) and am in the market for a trailer for my cob who weights about 550kg. I will only tow him and it'll be for short, local journeys on good surfaces.

1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1365kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 1910kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - max towing capacity is 1350kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - no trailer yet
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - no trailer yet

My car's GVW + my car's towing capacity = 3260kg, and this is our GTW, which is fine for me with a B licence as it's under 3500kg.

Your section of post 300 "There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to cope with the plated MAM of a trailer but there are plenty of internet myths on this" made me wonder; would I still need to get a trailer downplated when my car's towing capacity effectively stops my B licence limit from being a restriction?

I just wanted to be clear whether I can look at older/foreign lightweight trailers where the manufacturer may not be available for downplating. 

Apologies if it's a daft question, your help is much appreciated!


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## ROG (8 February 2017)

flat3 said:



			Hi ROG

I'd be grateful for some advice on my situation.

I have a Nissan Qashqai (https://www.carleasingmadesimple.com/car-leasing/nissan/qashqai-hatchback/73659/) and am in the market for a trailer for my cob who weights about 550kg. I will only tow him and it'll be for short, local journeys on good surfaces.

1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1365kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 1910kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - max towing capacity is 1350kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - no trailer yet
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - no trailer yet

My car's GVW + my car's towing capacity = 3260kg, and this is our GTW, which is fine for me with a B licence as it's under 3500kg.

Your section of post 300 "There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to cope with the plated MAM of a trailer but there are plenty of internet myths on this" made me wonder; would I still need to get a trailer downplated when my car's towing capacity effectively stops my B licence limit from being a restriction?

I just wanted to be clear whether I can look at older/foreign lightweight trailers where the manufacturer may not be available for downplating. 

Apologies if it's a daft question, your help is much appreciated!
		
Click to expand...

It would not matter if the GTW was listed as 4000 for example because the B licence max of 3500 is the vehicle GVW + the plated MAM of the trailer added together

Licence wise you have 1590 to play with in regards to the trailer plated MAM ..... BUT .... actual weight is restricted to the towing capacity of 1350

The load/horse weighs 550 but allowing for a little leeway I would say you need a minimum of 600 for the trailer load

1350 - 600 = 750 max weight for the empty trailer

Bateson Derby weighs 675 empty but is plated at 1700 so would need contact with Bateson to reduce/down plate the MAM to a max of 1590 but I would opt for a down plate to 1400 so that it gives more vehicle options in the future - costs about a tenner with Bateson to do this.
http://www.batesontrailers.com/shop/horse-trailers/derby-lightweight-horse-pony/

In virtually all down plating it is up to you yo remove current plate then send it to manufacturer with the money where upon they send you new plate to fix on yourself - metal drill bit and pop rivet gun needed

Another trailer might be the Cheval Liberte gold one which weighs 720 empty but has a plated MAM of 1600 
http://www.chevaltrailers.co.uk/gold-one


If no plate on a trailer then the total of all the tyre load ratings is deemed as the MAM


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## flat3 (8 February 2017)

Very speedy and helpful response, thank you ROG

For something without a plate or from a manufacturer abroad/out of business, if the total of all the tyre load ratings gives a MAM that is too high for my set up does that mean that trailer is a no go or is there someway of restricting it like downplating does?


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## ROG (8 February 2017)

flat3 said:



			Very speedy and helpful response, thank you ROG

For something without a plate or from a manufacturer abroad/out of business, if the total of all the tyre load ratings gives a MAM that is too high for my set up does that mean that trailer is a no go or is there someway of restricting it like downplating does?
		
Click to expand...

Trailer would be a no go


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## flat3 (8 February 2017)

Good to know, many thanks!


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## Ravenwood (11 February 2017)

Hi, please could I have some help too - its all so confusing!
1. License - yes (I'm old!)
2. Empty weight of car - 1710kg
3. GVW of car - 2505kg
4. GTW of car - 4505kg
5. MAM - 2700kg
6. Unladen weight of trailer - ? (Its a new HB511 but I don't understand the type plate and can't find anything on Google to explain it but suggests the trailer should weigh 1000kg but the only two figures on the plate are 2700 & 1400 kg?)

My horse weighs 600kg maximum in the summer and the recommended max towing weight in my car handbook is 2000kg so if my trailer does weigh 1000kg I should be fine right? But how do I find out and whats the 1400kg on the type plate? (Wish I knew how to add a photo and I could show you!
Thank you


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## ROG (11 February 2017)

Ravenwood said:



			Hi, please could I have some help too - its all so confusing!
1. License - yes (I'm old!)
2. Empty weight of car - 1710kg
3. GVW of car - 2505kg
4. GTW of car - 4505kg
5. MAM - 2700kg
6. Unladen weight of trailer - ? (Its a new HB511 but I don't understand the type plate and can't find anything on Google to explain it but suggests the trailer should weigh 1000kg but the only two figures on the plate are 2700 & 1400 kg?)

My horse weighs 600kg maximum in the summer and the recommended max towing weight in my car handbook is 2000kg so if my trailer does weigh 1000kg I should be fine right? But how do I find out and whats the 1400kg on the type plate? (Wish I knew how to add a photo and I could show you!
Thank you
		
Click to expand...

Max load for trailer = 1000kg

If I remember correctly 1400 is the minimum it can be down plated to ..... not certain on that but not that important


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## Ravenwood (11 February 2017)

That's great thanks.
So I'm good to go? 
(Once I get a tow bar fitted!)


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## ROG (11 February 2017)

Ravenwood said:



			That's great thanks.
So I'm good to go? 
(Once I get a tow bar fitted!)
		
Click to expand...

Good to go with your B+E licence and no more than 1000kg in the trailer


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## popsdosh (11 February 2017)

ROG said:



			Max load for trailer = 1000kg

If I remember correctly 1400 is the minimum it can be down plated to ..... not certain on that but not that important
		
Click to expand...

The 2700 I think is MAM on trailer and 1400 is MAM on any of the individual axles. 1000 is the unladen weight.


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## ROG (11 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			The 2700 I think is MAM on trailer and 1400 is MAM on any of the individual axles. 1000 is the unladen weight.
		
Click to expand...

I think you may be correct as it makes sense


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## ROG (23 February 2017)

tiger_buzz said:



			Thank you!





LICENCE
B or B+E = B

VEHICLE
GVW = 2260kg
Towing capacity = 2000kg
Kerb weight = 1797kg

TRAILER
Un-laden/empty = 1000kg
MAM =  2700kg

Is there a way to travel one horse legally without the B+E licence? Thank you 

Click to expand...

No

You have 2260 + 2700 = 4960 so 1460 over the 3500 B licence tow limit

Need a vehicle with perhaps a GVW of 2200 with a lightweight trailer weighing 700 empty which is plated (or down plated) at 1300 leaving 600 for the trailer load


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## tiger_buzz (23 February 2017)

ROG said:



			No

You have 2260 + 2700 = 4960 so 1460 over the 3500 B licence tow limit

Need a vehicle with perhaps a GVW of 2200 with a lightweight trailer weighing 700 empty which is plated (or down plated) at 1300 leaving 600 for the trailer load
		
Click to expand...

Thank you


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## EmmaLou (27 February 2017)

Hi Rog, new here and joined just to ask about my proposed set up so here goes :
Car: Kia Sportage KX-3 (satnav) 2.0 AWD manual 2013
My car has these figures on inside of passenger door.. Top line 2140kg which I am told is vehicle weight. 2nd line 4140kg which I am told is gross train weight so tows 2000kg
Licence - B
Trailer down plated at 1300kg. Gross weight 650-750 depending if I pick Bateson Derby or Ifor William HB403 

Pretty sure from your previous posts I have this sussed out as a legal option for me.


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## ROG (28 February 2017)

EmmaLou said:



			Hi Rog, new here and joined just to ask about my proposed set up so here goes :
Car: Kia Sportage KX-3 (satnav) 2.0 AWD manual 2013
My car has these figures on inside of passenger door.. Top line 2140kg which I am told is vehicle weight. 2nd line 4140kg which I am told is gross train weight so tows 2000kg
Licence - B
Trailer down plated at 1300kg. Gross weight 650-750 depending if I pick Bateson Derby or Ifor William HB403 

Pretty sure from your previous posts I have this sussed out as a legal option for me.
		
Click to expand...

2140 is the max weight the vehicle can weigh = GVW

2140 + 1300 = 3440 so under the max 3500 for B licence towing

If Derby at 675 empty then max load for trailer = 625
If HB403 at 770 empty then max load for trailer = 530


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## EmmaLou (28 February 2017)

ROG said:



			2140 is the max weight the vehicle can weigh = GVW

2140 + 1300 = 3440 so under the max 3500 for B licence towing

If Derby at 675 empty then max load for trailer = 625
If HB403 at 770 empty then max load for trailer = 530
		
Click to expand...

Thank you, I had thought it was legal but wanted to check I had worked it out right. Very educational thread, I was very surprised to find a solution for B licence towing so easily given many say it's impossible. Thanks again.


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## Fire sign (2 March 2017)

Hi ROG , we are a bit new to this . Thinking of buying a 2 horse Chival Liberte  trailer with 830 kg unladen weight and a Honda CRV 2.2 CDTi  vehicle . Is there any possibility that this could tow 2 TB type 16 hand horses and still be legal and safe ? Am guessing they would be about 1000 kg and the Honda can tow 2000 KG. I passed my test in approx 1990 so licence should have no restrictions. Many thanks


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## ROG (2 March 2017)

Fire sign said:



			Hi ROG , we are a bit new to this . Thinking of buying a 2 horse Chival Liberte  trailer with 830 kg unladen weight and a Honda CRV 2.2 CDTi  vehicle . Is there any possibility that this could tow 2 TB type 16 hand horses and still be legal and safe ? Am guessing they would be about 1000 kg and the Honda can tow 2000 KG. I passed my test in approx 1990 so licence should have no restrictions. Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

Max tow limit = 2000
Empty trailer 830 + horses 1000 = 1830
170 spare

You have B+E licence

All looks ok to me for weights and licence


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## Fire sign (2 March 2017)

Thank you so much , that's great news , much appreciated


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## Tayto (6 March 2017)

Hello - I have tried to have a search to find this answer but there are so many responses I thought I would do my own post. 

I recently passed the trailer test so have a B+E licence however some recent "FB debates" have worried me that my car is not safe to tow with... could you advise? 

I have a 2008 2.2 CTDi Honda CR-V (diesel).  Manufacturers book states max towing weight is 2000kg.

I have an ifor williams 505 and will be towing one horse weighing around 450 - 500kg... is this an ok match?  Someone is trying to tell me that the car has to be capable of towing the max stamped weight (correct terminology?) which I think is around 2300kg for the 505?  

Confused.com!


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## ROG (6 March 2017)

Tayto said:



			Hello - I have tried to have a search to find this answer but there are so many responses I thought I would do my own post. 

I recently passed the trailer test so have a B+E licence however some recent "FB debates" have worried me that my car is not safe to tow with... could you advise? 

I have a 2008 2.2 CTDi Honda CR-V (diesel).  Manufacturers book states max towing weight is 2000kg.

I have an ifor williams 505 and will be towing one horse weighing around 450 - 500kg... is this an ok match?  Someone is trying to tell me that the car has to be capable of towing the max stamped weight (correct terminology?) which I think is around 2300kg for the 505?  

Confused.com!
		
Click to expand...

B+E licence
2000 tow limit
Total weight being towed around 1500
500 to spare for trailer load
TOTALLY LEGAL 

What you have come across is an internet MYTH in regards to the towing limit being able to accommodate the plated trailer MAM and there is no law or rule which states such


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## Tayto (6 March 2017)

ROG said:



			B+E licence
2000 tow limit
Total weight being towed around 1500
500 to spare for trailer load
TOTALLY LEGAL 

What you have come across is an internet MYTH in regards to the towing limit being able to accommodate the plated trailer MAM and there is no law or rule which states such
		
Click to expand...

thanks so much - that puts my mind at rest as this person was determined I should not be towing with the CRV!


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## ROG (6 March 2017)

Tayto said:



			thanks so much - that puts my mind at rest as this person was determined I should not be towing with the CRV!
		
Click to expand...

Ask that person to show you the law or rule that backs uo what they are saying = they will not find one !

If they say because it has the POTENTIAL to exceed the towing capacity then tell them this ..... in a 30 limit my car has the POTENTIAL to do 70+


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## EmmaLou (6 March 2017)

ROG said:



			2140 is the max weight the vehicle can weigh = GVW

2140 + 1300 = 3440 so under the max 3500 for B licence towing

If Derby at 675 empty then max load for trailer = 625
If HB403 at 770 empty then max load for trailer = 530
		
Click to expand...

Hi Rog,
I have just seen your comment regarding the Internet myth which I believed to be true hence why I would be having the trailer down plated to stay under the 3500 on my B licence. Bateson website are using this as a selling point for holders of a B licence. The Bateson Derby gross weight is 1700kg, unladen 675kg. My car kerb weight is 1600kg, 2140 GVW and 2000kg towing limit.  
Because of this myth I thought I would need the trailers gross weight to be changed to 1300 to be legal. Unless it's different for B licence


----------



## ROG (6 March 2017)

EmmaLou said:



			Hi Rog,
I have just seen your comment regarding the Internet myth which I believed to be true hence why I would be having the trailer down plated to stay under the 3500 on my B licence. Bateson website are using this as a selling point for holders of a B licence. The Bateson Derby gross weight is 1700kg, unladen 675kg. My car kerb weight is 1600kg, 2140 GVW and 2000kg towing limit.  
Because of this myth I thought I would need the trailers gross weight to be changed to 1300 to be legal. Unless it's different for B licence
		
Click to expand...

For a B licence the max plate for the trailer would be 1360 with a 2140 GVW vehicle

This made up example would also be legal for B licence towing - 

Vehicle GVW 1900
Max vehicle tow limit 1500

Trailer plated MAM 1600
Trailer empty 800

Max load for trailer = 700 (1500-800=700)

As you can see from this LEGAL made up example the plated MAM of the trailer is 100 more than the vehicle tow capacity but still conforms to the B licence towing max of 3500 (1900+1600=3500)


----------



## EmmaLou (6 March 2017)

ROG said:



			For a B licence the max plate for the trailer would be 1360 with a 2140 GVW vehicle

This made up example would also be legal for B licence towing - 

Vehicle GVW 1900
Max vehicle tow limit 1500

Trailer plated MAM 1600
Trailer empty 800

Max load for trailer = 700 (1500-800=700)

As you can see from this LEGAL made up example the plated MAM of the trailer is 100 more than the vehicle tow capacity but still conforms to the B licence towing max of 3500 (1900+1600=3500)
		
Click to expand...

OK so the down plating to stay within 3500 max combined weight ( not towing ability) only applies to stay within your licence limitations. Is the myth bit about it applying to the vehicle capabilities where as it only applies to the licence?


----------



## ROG (6 March 2017)

EmmaLou said:



			OK so the down plating to stay within 3500 max combined weight ( not towing ability) only applies to B licence holders. Is the myth bit about it applying to everyone?
		
Click to expand...

The myth usually refers to a B+E set up where trailer MAMs can be higher than B licence set ups


----------



## spookypony (6 March 2017)

Brilliant, thanks so much for all the clarifications. Am towing a 505 with one small horse (total trailer + horse weight about 1350) with an Outlander; should be well within capacity, but it does feel wimpy. The thing is an LPG conversion, so I've been told that this will downgrade power when running on LPG; perhaps should get into habit of towing on petrol only. Wouldn't dream of trying 2 horses in there, and am cautious about taking it along difficult/long routes at the moment, which might be a problem once endurance season starts. I miss my Pajero!


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## roz84 (19 March 2017)

Hi ROG am hoping you can confirm that this would be ok with a downplated trailer? Thanks!!


1 -B license- to tow ONE mare weighing no more than 500kg
2 - 1655
3 - Not sure!! 2008 mitsubishi outlander 2.0 di-d....
4 - 2000
5 - 1700
6 - 675 (bateson derby!!)


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## ROG (19 March 2017)

roz84 said:



			Hi ROG am hoping you can confirm that this would be ok with a downplated trailer? Thanks!!


1 -B license- to tow ONE mare weighing no more than 500kg
2 - 1655
3 - Not sure!! 2008 mitsubishi outlander 2.0 di-d....
4 - 2000
5 - 1700
6 - 675 (bateson derby!!)
		
Click to expand...

Need to know GWV of car - that is the top figure of the 4 listed on the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame OR if you have the V5 keepers form handy then it is the MAX PERMISIBLE WEIGHT number


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## roz84 (19 March 2017)

I think that is 2360 &#128578;


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## ROG (19 March 2017)

roz84 said:



			I think that is 2360 &#55357;&#56898;
		
Click to expand...

If it is GVW 2360 then the max plated weight (MAM) for a trailer under B licence rules is 1140

At MAM 1140 with an empty weight of 675 leaves a max load for the trailer of 465kg 

Solution - you need a vehicle with a lower GVW


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## roz84 (19 March 2017)

If I took the trailer test would the above combination then be legal? I find it all so confusing, however I think I have set my heart on this car!


----------



## ROG (19 March 2017)

roz84 said:



			If I took the trailer test would the above combination then be legal? I find it all so confusing, however I think I have set my heart on this car!
		
Click to expand...

Legal with B+E 

Towing limit 2000
Trailer MAM 1700
Trailer empty 675
Max trailer load 1025


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## Durhamchance (23 March 2017)

1 - B+E
2 - 1940kg
3 - 2475kg
4 - 1700kg
5- 2340kg
6 - 905kg

I think those figures are correct, we have a 2012 Vauxhall insignia 2.0d eco Nav 178bhp sports tourer and want to tow a IW505


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## ROG (23 March 2017)

Durhamchance said:



			1 - B+E
2 - 1940kg
3 - 2475kg
4 - 1700kg
5- 2340kg
6 - 905kg

I think those figures are correct, we have a 2012 Vauxhall insignia 2.0d eco Nav 178bhp sports tourer and want to tow a IW505
		
Click to expand...

Max load for trailer = 795kg


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## Durhamchance (23 March 2017)

Does that mean we can carry a 500kg horse plus 295kg in equipment? (Theoretically)

Thanks for the quick reply, I was getting horribly  confused!


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## ROG (23 March 2017)

Durhamchance said:



			Does that mean we can carry a 500kg horse plus 295kg in equipment?
		
Click to expand...

YES


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## Durhamchance (23 March 2017)

ROG said:



			YES
		
Click to expand...

Thank you &#55357;&#56842;


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## Arch99ck (28 March 2017)

Hiya, 

i'm in the middle of trying to buy a new towing car so wanted your advice. I can take my B+E but I'm very confused as not sure if this car can even pull the weight required. The garage says it can as goes on nose weight but i'm not so sure. Any info would be great!

Looking at Jeep Renegade 1.6 multi jet II diesel brand new, so hope I've done the calculations right

1  B
2 - Kerb weight 1404kg
3 - GVW - 1905kg
4 -  towing capacity of the towing vehicle 1200kg
5 - 1400kg down graded (HB403)
6 - 767 kg plus 1 horse at around 500kg

your wisdom would be gratefully received as going to see the dealership again today. 

Thank you!!


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## ROG (28 March 2017)

Arch99ck said:



			Hiya, 

i'm in the middle of trying to buy a new towing car so wanted your advice. I can take my B+E but I'm very confused as not sure if this car can even pull the weight required. The garage says it can as goes on nose weight but i'm not so sure. Any info would be great!

Looking at Jeep Renegade 1.6 multi jet II diesel brand new, so hope I've done the calculations right

1  B
2 - Kerb weight 1404kg
3 - GVW - 1905kg
4 -  towing capacity of the towing vehicle 1200kg
5 - 1400kg down graded (HB403)
6 - 767 kg plus 1 horse at around 500kg

your wisdom would be gratefully received as going to see the dealership again today. 

Thank you!!
		
Click to expand...

Legally on a B licence that is ok
At 767+500= 1267 so over the vehicle towing max = NOT ok on any licence

The only trailer I can think of which would just work with those numbers is a Bateson Derby at 675 empty and plated at a max of 1595 which would be 675+500=1175 so just inside the 1200 tow max


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## Arch99ck (28 March 2017)

ROG said:



			Legally on a B licence that is ok
At 767+500= 1267 so over the vehicle towing max = NOT ok on any licence

The only trailer I can think of which would just work with those numbers is a Bateson Derby at 675 empty and plated at a max of 1595 which would be 675+500=1175 so just inside the 1200 tow max
		
Click to expand...

That's what I thought!!! so glad i double checked!
thank you for this. looks like it would be better going for the 2.0 litre with 1500kg max towing weight and kerb weight of 1502kg would this still be ok on B licence?

GVW 2,010kg


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## ROG (28 March 2017)

Arch99ck said:



			That's what I thought!!! so glad i double checked!
thank you for this. looks like it would be better going for the 2.0 litre with 1500kg max towing weight and kerb weight of 1502kg would this still be ok on B licence?

GVW 2,010kg
		
Click to expand...

What is the GVW of that model ?


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## Arch99ck (28 March 2017)

GVW 2,010kg


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## ROG (28 March 2017)

Arch99ck said:



			GVW 2,010kg
		
Click to expand...

1500 max tow
trailer 767 empty
trailer MAM 1400

3410 total so ok for B licence
Max load for trailer = 633


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## The Hound (3 April 2017)

1 - B (but looking into taking B+E test)
2 - 1715kg
3 - 2140kg
4 - 2000kg
5 - 1905kg
6 - 905kg

Should be correct weights for a Rav4 2.2 D-4D, haven't bought the car yet but hoping to look at it again this week if this combination works!


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## ROG (3 April 2017)

The Hound said:



			1 - B (but looking into taking B+E test)
2 - 1715kg
3 - 2140kg
4 - 2000kg
5 - 1905kg
6 - 905kg

Should be correct weights for a Rav4 2.2 D-4D, haven't bought the car yet but hoping to look at it again this week if this combination works!
		
Click to expand...

Total MAM for licencing is 4045 so above the 3500 B towing limit

With B+E the max load for the trailer is 1000

If down plating to 1360 for B towing that would only leave max load for the trailer of 455


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## Rides (5 April 2017)

Hi @ROG & all!

Interesting conversation just now with a trailer retailer.. before anyone says it, i've already emailed VOSA myself for confirmation but wondered if anyone on here knows-


He advised me that the rule applying to post '97 licenses is now that the ACTUAL weight must not exceed 3500kg. Not the plated MAM/GVW. Other rules i.e. car: trailer weight ratios still apply. Anyone shed any light?


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## ROG (5 April 2017)

Rides said:



			Hi @ROG & all!

Interesting conversation just now with a trailer retailer.. before anyone says it, i've already emailed VOSA myself for confirmation but wondered if anyone on here knows-


He advised me that the rule applying to post '97 licenses is now that the ACTUAL weight must not exceed 3500kg. Not the plated MAM/GVW. Other rules i.e. car: trailer weight ratios still apply. Anyone shed any light?
		
Click to expand...

Dopey retailer who does not know the law

Please post who the retailer is so that I can contact them to avert them getting other drivers into legal trouble


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## SuperCat007 (6 April 2017)

1: B
2: 1430 kg
3: 2600 kg
4:2000 kg capacity
5: Not sure HB505/6 so 1905 kg?
6: 920 kg

Downplate trailer to at least 1900 to tow on a B licence? 

Thank you.


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## ROG (6 April 2017)

SuperCat007 said:



			1: B
2: 1430 kg
3: 2600 kg
4:2000 kg capacity
5: Not sure HB505/6 so 1905 kg?
6: 920 kg

Downplate trailer to at least 1900 to tow on a B licence? 

Thank you.
		
Click to expand...

Is number 3 (GVW) correct ?


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## SuperCat007 (7 April 2017)

Apologies, no. I'm struggling to find that. It's a 2015 VW Passat though


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## ROG (7 April 2017)

SuperCat007 said:



			Apologies, no. I'm struggling to find that. It's a 2015 VW Passat though
		
Click to expand...

V5 doc = max permissible mass 
OR
top number of the 4 on the weight plate usually under the bonnet or in a door frame

Would need to know exact model to find GVW on the internet


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## SuperCat007 (8 April 2017)

ROG said:



			V5 doc = max permissible mass 
OR
top number of the 4 on the weight plate usually under the bonnet or in a door frame

Would need to know exact model to find GVW on the internet
		
Click to expand...

Wait, no. I'm getting the list all mixed up. The GVW of the Passat is 1430 according to Parker's. Unsure of the unladen weight of the veichle though, I'm struggling to find that.


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## ROG (8 April 2017)

SuperCat007 said:



			Wait, no. I'm getting the list all mixed up. The GVW of the Passat is 1430 according to Parker's. Unsure of the unladen weight of the veichle though, I'm struggling to find that.
		
Click to expand...

PLEASE give the exact model you have as there are so many

What does is say on the V5 keepers doc under - max permissible weight ?????????????


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## ROG (15 April 2017)

This site now has an expert in trailer repairs, towbars and servicing etc = Trailer Guy = https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/member.php?129865-trailer-guy

I found his website here = http://www.compasstrailers.com/index.htm

Trailer Guy has the mechanical expertise for horse trailers and I have the knowledge of licencing and weight laws/rules for towing so between us we should be able to help with any queries


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## trailer guy (15 April 2017)

Hello all

Thanks for the intro ROG. I am, indeed, more than happy to help with any trailering questions you may have. 

I've been in the trailer industry for around twenty years so have come across most issues in that time. I hope I can be of assistance to those of you that are a bit stuck with the more unglamorous side of this lovely industry! 

All the best, Ben


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## Laura2408 (18 April 2017)

Sorry I've asked this before ROG but can't find the answer.

What trailer can I legally tow on a B licence with a VW Tiguan. I think the GVW is 1655. 2200 towing capacity.
Pony is 400kg.

Really don't want to do the test!


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## ROG (18 April 2017)

Laura2408 said:



			Sorry I've asked this before ROG but can't find the answer.

What trailer can I legally tow on a B licence with a VW Tiguan. I think the GVW is 1655. 2200 towing capacity.
Pony is 400kg.

Really don't want to do the test!
		
Click to expand...


Empty will be 1655
GVW is likely to be about 2200

Look on V5 keeper doc under max permissible mass OR find hidden weight plate on vehicle - usually under bonnet or in a door frame - and note the top of the 4 numbers listed 
That will enable you to post the GVW which I need before going further


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## Laura2408 (18 April 2017)

I think the GVW is 2350 from a quick google? Would need to dig documents out!


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## ROG (18 April 2017)

Laura2408 said:



			I think the GVW is 2350 from a quick google? Would need to dig documents out!
		
Click to expand...

Seems a bit high at 2350

Example if GVW is 2250
That leaves a plated MAM for the trailer of 1250 so you would need to get a trailer where the manufacturer is still trading to get it down plated

If for example the trailer was a HB401/3 then that weighs 780 empty but most are plated at 1600 so you would need to contact IW to down plate it = you remove plate and send them the fee and then they send you new plate and you fix it on

At 780 empty and plated at 1250 that would leave 470 for the trailer load so easily coping with a 400 pony


I await the exact GVW of your vehicle .............


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## spugs (22 April 2017)

Hi, b licence, car is a 2006 1.9 fiat multipa, pony is 500kg and trailer would be something that could be towed on a b licence only. This really makes my head hurt!


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## ROG (22 April 2017)

spugs said:



			Hi, b licence, car is a 2006 1.9 fiat multipa, pony is 500kg and trailer would be something that could be towed on a b licence only. This really makes my head hurt!
		
Click to expand...


Please give me the top two weights of the four listed on the vehicle weight plate which is usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame OR get the V5 keepers DVLA doc and give me the max permissible weight and the max braked towing weight figures


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## spugs (22 April 2017)

Thanks


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## spugs (22 April 2017)

Max permissible mass (exc. m/c) 3350. 
May towable braked 1300

Are those the ones?


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## ROG (22 April 2017)

spugs said:



			Max permissible mass (exc. m/c) 3350. 
May towable braked 1300

Are those the ones?
		
Click to expand...

With a GVW of 3350 the max trailer plated weight is 750kg on a B licence - most horse trailers are at least that when empty

You need a vehicle with a GVW around 2200 kg max


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## spugs (22 April 2017)

Oh well never mind, thanks for your help.


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## ROG (23 April 2017)

Fourtoomany said:



			Hi there

I have a query here which I am looking for help with.

I have just bought a cheval liberte horse trailer (single horse). I only have a B licence at the moment and for various reasons sitting the test will be tricky but I will be planning to do it in the near future.

I'm the meantime I need to work out what is legal! It is SO confusing but I think I may finally get it. We haven't yet got the car to tow with, but will be getting one once we have worked out what is legal!

Am I right in thinking that the LEGAL requirement is that the combination of car and trailer goes purely by MAM? Not by how much they actually weigh? As in, trailer MAM is 1400 and Car MAM is 2000 then you're ok because it's only 3400? So even if the car MAM and trailer MAM are more, but the combination are on road and weighs less than 3500 at any given point it doesn't matter in the eyes of the law because it's still illegal? 

Also can anyone who has a b licence tell me what cars you tow with and how well you think they do the job? I know it's limited, but I want to learn on the job, as it were, then do the test when I have the time. (Waiting list at our local test centre is months too!) 

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

Licences go on the plated weights not actual weights

If the GVW of your car is 2000 and the MAM of the trailer is 1400 then at 3400 total that is legal for a B licence

What is the towing capacity of your car ?

What sort of vehicles are you looking for ? - 4x4s ?


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## Fourtoomany (23 April 2017)

Thanks for that ROG!

We haven't picked a car yet, so anything that is big enough day to day for 3 kids and 3 dogs, but that will be happy towing at the weekends. I have told my husband that I don't care what it looks like or what it is! It's going to be my car and it will be full of horse hair within weeks!

4x4 would be nice but an estate would be fine too. The box is new so I'll be downplaying it to as low as possible as soon as I can!


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## ROG (23 April 2017)

Fourtoomany said:



			Thanks for that ROG!

We haven't picked a car yet, so anything that is big enough day to day for 3 kids and 3 dogs, but that will be happy towing at the weekends. I have told my husband that I don't care what it looks like or what it is! It's going to be my car and it will be full of horse hair within weeks!

4x4 would be nice but an estate would be fine too. The box is new so I'll be downplaying it to as low as possible as soon as I can!
		
Click to expand...

Try a Skoda Octavia 4x4


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## Fourtoomany (23 April 2017)

Super! Thank you very much. I will investigate that this evening!


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## ROG (23 April 2017)

ALSO for B towing ideas = 
Nissan QashQai
Skoda Yeti


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## spugs (25 April 2017)

How about this one?

B&E towing licence

Car is a 2005 jag x type 2.0
Gvw 2035 kg
Max breaker trailer 1500kg

Trailer is a Ivor Williams 505

Thansk


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## ROG (25 April 2017)

spugs said:



			How about this one?

B&E towing licence

Car is a 2005 jag x type 2.0
Gvw 2035 kg
Max breaker trailer 1500kg

Trailer is a Ivor Williams 505

Thansk
		
Click to expand...

We are limited to a max of 1500 actual weight being towed behind the car

HB505 is 905 empty so that leaves a max load to put inside the trailer of 595


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## ROG (25 April 2017)

spugs said:



			How about this one?

B&E towing licence

Car is a 2005 jag x type 2.0
Gvw 2035 kg
Max breaker trailer 1500kg

Trailer is a Ivor Williams 505

Thansk
		
Click to expand...

Another thought - by contacting IW and down plating trailer to 1450 would leave a max trailer load of 545 on a B licence


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## spugs (25 April 2017)

Thanks a lot &#128077;


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## Counterpoint (4 May 2017)

I have a towing question:

I use a 2008 Ford Mondeo estate 2L Diesel to tow, and usually tow an Ifor 505 with the partitions out, with full width bars (it has aluminium floor). It tows comfortably and easily even up fairly steep hills.
My horse weighs 620kg.
She won't allow me to shut the top back doors on the trailer even if I wanted to, but does move and panic a little when large lorries come up behind us.

I am going to have to tow for 3 hrs+ soon, I will take breaks, but much of the journey will be on motorways. I have the option of borrowing an equitreck trailer (not the massive ones with living, but has a side ramp and horsebox style partitions and is fully enclosed), not sure how much it weighs, and don't have a means of finding out exactly, I could take the partition out.

Do you have any idea if I might be ok for weight? 
I suspect I'll be over the 85% for the car, but the horse would travel much better in it.  If it helps any kit would be in the car, so increasing the car's weight relative to the trailer. I know I need to keep the total down to 3.5t too, I'm not sure how people with large trailers manage this.

I have a standard pre 1997 B+E licence


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## Counterpoint (4 May 2017)

Counterpoint said:



			I have a towing question:

I use a 2008 Ford Mondeo estate 2L Diesel to tow, and usually tow an Ifor 505 with the partitions out, with full width bars (it has aluminium floor). It tows comfortably and easily even up fairly steep hills.
My horse weighs 620kg.
She won't allow me to shut the top back doors on the trailer even if I wanted to, but does move and panic a little when large lorries come up behind us.

I am going to have to tow for 3 hrs+ soon, I will take breaks, but much of the journey will be on motorways. I have the option of borrowing an equitreck trailer (not the massive ones with living, but has a side ramp and horsebox style partitions and is fully enclosed), not sure how much it weighs, and don't have a means of finding out exactly, I could take the partition out.

Do you have any idea if I might be ok for weight? 
I suspect I'll be over the 85% for the car, but the horse would travel much better in it.  If it helps any kit would be in the car, so increasing the car's weight relative to the trailer. I know I need to keep the total down to 3.5t too, I'm not sure how people with large trailers manage this.

I have a standard pre 1997 B+E licence
		
Click to expand...

Just to Add, its s Space Trecka, I think M but not sure - will try to find out, but the owner doesn't seem to know, according to specs that would make it £1200kg which isn't as heavy as I thought, plus the horse would make it £1820, slightly less if I take the partition out. Still close and I'm not totally sure whats recommended, whats legal and whats just stupid.


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## ROG (4 May 2017)

Counterpoint said:



			I have a towing question:
 I know I need to keep the total down to 3.5t 
I have a standard pre 1997 B+E licence
		
Click to expand...

No 3.5 limit with B+E - dunno where you got that from !

85% advice is for caravans only

Need to know weight of load being put in trailer ?
Weight of empty trailer ?
Plated MAM of trailer ?
Towing capacity of vehicle ?


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## ROG (4 May 2017)

trailer = space trekka M = http://www.equi-trek.com/products/space-treka-m
Empty 1130
MAM 2500

Just need these weights = 
Load going into trailer
Max braked towing capacity of car (V5 keepers doc) OR the top two of the four weights on the weight plate usually under bonnet or in door frame


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## Counterpoint (5 May 2017)

Thanks ROG!! 
Don't know where I got the 3.5 from either - good to know it isn't relevant.
Will check tonight but I think the capacity of car is 1800 based on online searches, I'll check the plate and the V5.

Load going into trailer will be 620kg horse plus about 5kg haynet. Thats all, rug and boots on the horse won't make much diff. The rest goes in the car.

If those numbers are right does that means I'm just about ok?


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## legaldancer (5 May 2017)

Sorry if I'm posting in the wrong place, the forum has changed a bit since I last visited. I've put a post in the 'Tack Room' but it may be better here.
Does anyone tow with a new shape (2015) Kia Sorento?
It seems that the latest reincarnation of the Kia Sorrento can only have a detachable tow bar rather than a fitted version. We have found a Sorento that fits our criteria and has a tow bar to replace my unreliable Discovery 3, however, I'm rather worried about the detachable tow bar as have heard they're not as safe for towing livestock. There is no option to change it on the latest model for a permanently fitted version, and another Discovery is sadly out of the question. I'm hoping to hear from others with the new Sorento. Older Sorentos were more truck like and had the permanent fitted tow bars, but as I say, that's no longer an option.


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## ROG (5 May 2017)

Counterpoint said:



			Thanks ROG!! 
Don't know where I got the 3.5 from either - good to know it isn't relevant.
Will check tonight but I think the capacity of car is 1800 based on online searches, I'll check the plate and the V5.

Load going into trailer will be 620kg horse plus about 5kg haynet. Thats all, rug and boots on the horse won't make much diff. The rest goes in the car.

If those numbers are right does that means I'm just about ok?
		
Click to expand...

1130+620+5=1775 so just under 1800 limit


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## ROG (5 May 2017)

legaldancer said:



			sorry if i'm posting in the wrong place, the forum has changed a bit since i last visited. I've put a post in the 'tack room' but it may be better here.
Does anyone tow with a new shape (2015) kia sorento?
It seems that the latest reincarnation of the kia sorrento can only have a detachable tow bar rather than a fitted version. We have found a sorento that fits our criteria and has a tow bar to replace my unreliable discovery 3, however, i'm rather worried about the detachable tow bar as have heard they're not as safe for towing livestock. There is no option to change it on the latest model for a permanently fitted version, and another discovery is sadly out of the question. I'm hoping to hear from others with the new sorento. Older sorentos were more truck like and had the permanent fitted tow bars, but as i say, that's no longer an option.
		
Click to expand...

trailer guy ------- one for you


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## trailer guy (5 May 2017)

Indeed! 

Actually, it was the Land Rover Discovery 3 that had a detachable tow bar issue. There was a recall, as the detachable neck had a wear point which became dangerous, causing some to fail and detach themselves from the Discovery. 

This is likely the source of the concern that you have. Ironic that it was actually your previous tow vehicle! 

All tow bars are now manufactured in accordance with Directive 94/20/EC, meaning it has been manufactured to a known technical and quality standard. 

Ergo, detachable tow bars (other than the Disco 3!) are no more prone to failure than a fixed tow bar. 

And just to throw something else in to the mix: a standard, non-detachable, towbar is available for a 2015 Kia Sorento....


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## legaldancer (8 May 2017)

Thank you very much trailer guy. Yes, I think it was the Discovery detachable tow bars that have given the detachable ones a bad reputation amongst horse owners. Mine was a fitted flange tow bar on that vehicle.
I was given some duff info on the Kia tow bar it would seem, by both the salesman and the local tow bar fitter. There is indeed a flange tow bar for the Kia. We have settled now on a '14 plate manual Sorento with a bolted on tow bar and hopefully it will do the job, and will allay my worries.


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## Nasicus (13 May 2017)

Just wondering if the parents car would be up to towing, sorry if I've got the answers all wrong, I got what I did fill in from online :s

1 - What licence they hold - B+E (Pre 97, Dad would be towing)
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1389kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - Not 100% sure what this is, it's a Vauxhall Zafira B Model
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - Towing Cap 1100kg

(No idea if this car is capable of towing a trailer, so not got one in mind, but would probably go for a single horse trailer? So no exact answer to these questions!)
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer


Horse is around 700kg, 14hh heavyweight cob.


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## ROG (13 May 2017)

Nasicus said:



			Just wondering if the parents car would be up to towing, sorry if I've got the answers all wrong, I got what I did fill in from online :s

1 - What licence they hold - B+E (Pre 97, Dad would be towing)
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1389kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - Not 100% sure what this is, it's a Vauxhall Zafira B Model
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - Towing Cap 1100kg

(No idea if this car is capable of towing a trailer, so not got one in mind, but would probably go for a single horse trailer? So no exact answer to these questions!)
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer


Horse is around 700kg, 14hh heavyweight cob.
		
Click to expand...

If the max tow capacity is 1100 then with a horse weighing 700 you would need a trailer weighing a max of 400 empty = impossible because the lightest I know of is 720 empty


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## Nasicus (13 May 2017)

ROG said:



			If the max tow capacity is 1100 then with a horse weighing 700 you would need a trailer weighing a max of 400 empty = impossible because the lightest I know of is 720 empty
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ROG, I had a feeling that would be the answer!


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## alainax (13 May 2017)

Nasicus said:



			Just wondering if the parents car would be up to towing, sorry if I've got the answers all wrong, I got what I did fill in from online :s

1 - What licence they hold - B+E (Pre 97, Dad would be towing)
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1389kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - Not 100% sure what this is, it's a Vauxhall Zafira B Model
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - Towing Cap 1100kg

(No idea if this car is capable of towing a trailer, so not got one in mind, but would probably go for a single horse trailer? So no exact answer to these questions!)
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer


Horse is around 700kg, 14hh heavyweight cob.
		
Click to expand...

That is one hefty cob!


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## ROG (13 May 2017)

ROG said:



			If the max tow capacity is 1100 then with a horse weighing 700 you would need a trailer weighing a max of 400 empty = impossible because the lightest I know of is 720 empty
		
Click to expand...

Just remembered lightest is Bateson Derby at 675 empty


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## littlen (14 May 2017)

ROG does it matter if the amount your towing weighs more than the car?

My car is about 1650kg and the trailer 900kg, plus two horses would mean I am towing around 2000kg?
Is this dangerous and could I tip over or something. Someone said the car must weigh more. 
Sorry I'm utterly clueless. 

Towing capacity of the car is 2200kg.


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## ROG (14 May 2017)

littlen said:



			ROG does it matter if the amount your towing weighs more than the car?

My car is about 1650kg and the trailer 900kg, plus two horses would mean I am towing around 2000kg?
Is this dangerous and could I tip over or something. Someone said the car must weigh more. 
Sorry I'm utterly clueless. 

Towing capacity of the car is 2200kg.
		
Click to expand...

Take the car empty weight then add driver, passenger + kit etc and then tell me what the weight of the towing vehicle is


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## Nasicus (14 May 2017)

alainax said:



			That is one hefty cob!
		
Click to expand...

She's built like a brick out house! Can't even get boots to fit her as she's got so much bone even x-full doesn't fit x.x


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## littlen (14 May 2017)

Just been to look at the car and it may be heavier than I thought.

The plate says-
GVW rating 2250kg
Gross combination weight vehicle and trailer 3970kg.

So from the latter I would be not legal as trailer and horses 2000kg plus car would take me over the gross combination weight (2000trailer+2250car)

It does not say what the unloaded weight of the vehicle is anywhere on the plate. 

I've never been so confused about what's legal or safe and what isn't!


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## littlen (14 May 2017)

Ah the manual says it's 1631-1735 kerb weight?


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## ROG (14 May 2017)

littlen said:



			Ah the manual says it's 1631-1735 kerb weight?
		
Click to expand...

That will just the vehicle itself empty and does not include the vehicle load


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## littlen (14 May 2017)

So I would say that I would be carrying to adults, tack, water etc so would probably be hitting about 2000kg with the kerb weight and stuff inside the car? 

So if that's the case then the trailer combo and car are of a similar weight, possibly the trailer may be slightly heavier if the horse keeps eating as it does! 

Is this going to end up verging on dangerous?


----------



## ROG (14 May 2017)

littlen said:



			So I would say that I would be carrying to adults, tack, water etc so would probably be hitting about 2000kg with the kerb weight and stuff inside the car? 

So if that's the case then the trailer combo and car are of a similar weight, possibly the trailer may be slightly heavier if the horse keeps eating as it does! 

Is this going to end up verging on dangerous?
		
Click to expand...

No because the design safe towing weights are based on a vehicle with just a driver towing a full max load

Many are designed to be about 2200 vehicle towing a 3500 weight !

Personally I do not like towing a trailer which is heavier than vehicle but that is me


----------



## littlen (14 May 2017)

Thanks ROG, really value your opinion.

It's going to cost somewhere in the region of £1000 for the test and towbar etc so I want to make sure it's exactly right before I spend the money.

So as long as the towing capacity is 2200kg and I'm not towing over that that's all that legally matters? 

The gross combination weight of the car is 3970, so does this mean I would only have 1970 for the trailer if my car is 2000kg loaded? 

Why don't you like doing it out of interest?

Thanks again- sorry for so many questions!!!


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## ROG (14 May 2017)

littlen said:



			Thanks ROG, really value your opinion.

It's going to cost somewhere in the region of £1000 for the test and towbar etc so I want to make sure it's exactly right before I spend the money.

So as long as the towing capacity is 2200kg and I'm not towing over that that's all that legally matters? 

The gross combination weight of the car is 3970, so does this mean I would only have 1970 for the trailer if my car is 2000kg loaded? 

Why don't you like doing it out of interest?

Thanks again- sorry for so many questions!!!
		
Click to expand...

Always the possibility of the tail wagging the dog !

With a B+E licence as long as the actual weight being pulled does not exceed the towing capacity and/or the plated MAM of the trailer then all is ok


----------



## littlen (14 May 2017)

I think I will leave it then as I'm not an experienced tower at all! I would be doing b+e but don't fancy having to correct a trailer if it's too heavy and wagging about!


----------



## ROG (14 May 2017)

littlen said:



			I think I will leave it then as I'm not an experienced tower at all! I would be doing b+e but don't fancy having to correct a trailer if it's too heavy and wagging about!
		
Click to expand...

Driven correctly it is very unlikely to wobble


----------



## EmmaLou (15 May 2017)

Hi Rog, I have just got off the phone to Bateson. Interestingly they said the law has now changed and they are no longer taking into account the plated weight of the trailer, apparently it has proved too complicated and too much work. It would now be the actual weight of car and trailer with load at the time of towing for example if you was to be put on a weight bridge. Have you heard about this? Could be good news for many!


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## ROG (15 May 2017)

EmmaLou said:



			Hi Rog, I have just got off the phone to Bateson. Interestingly they said the law has now changed and they are no longer taking into account the plated weight of the trailer, apparently it has proved too complicated and too much work. It would now be the actual weight of car and trailer with load at the time of towing for example if you was to be put on a weight bridge. Have you heard about this? Could be good news for many!
		
Click to expand...

Ring them again and get someone who knows the law because that has not changed

Did you speak to the monkey or the organ grinder ?


----------



## EmmaLou (15 May 2017)

ROG said:



			Ring them again and get someone who knows the law because that has not changed

Did you speak to the monkey or the organ grinder ?
		
Click to expand...

I don't know I have just done my own research and could not find anything on the law changing it all says the exact same as when I last checked. I only called for a price!! Anyway I'll just stick with getting the MAM of a lightweight trailer plated to 1360kg as my cars GVW is 2140kg just to be on safe side


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## tallyho! (15 May 2017)

EmmaLou said:



			Hi Rog, I have just got off the phone to Bateson. Interestingly they said the law has now changed and they are no longer taking into account the plated weight of the trailer, apparently it has proved too complicated and too much work. It would now be the actual weight of car and trailer with load at the time of towing for example if you was to be put on a weight bridge. Have you heard about this? Could be good news for many!
		
Click to expand...




ROG said:



			Ring them again and get someone who knows the law because that has not changed

Did you speak to the monkey or the organ grinder ?
		
Click to expand...




EmmaLou said:



			I don't know I have just done my own research and could not find anything on the law changing it all says the exact same as when I last checked. I only called for a price!! Anyway I'll just stick with getting the MAM of a lightweight trailer plated to 1360kg as my cars GVW is 2140kg just to be on safe side 

Click to expand...

Amazing what you can get fobbed off with


----------



## GemG (16 May 2017)

I thought I understood it all, then the more I read, the more confused I become!...

Looking to use the following, 
2008 VW Passat Estate 4motion diesel 

 To tow a 

IFor Williams HB403....

I only have the newer B licence. Husband kindly tows, but wondering if I can get down plated..?

1. B licence
2. Empty weight vehicle 1814 kg according to a website? 
3. Gross vehicle weight 2240kg (from V5)
4. 2000kg
5. MAM trailer 1600kg
6. Empty trailer 767kg

On the V5 it says ...
- revenue weight 1686kg
- max permissible mass 2240kg
- mass in service 1684kg

I don't know if any of them are actually the weight unladen, I'm confused.

Can I tow legally on a B if I down plate?  Horse will weigh 600kg when grown. ..

??


----------



## ROG (16 May 2017)

GemG said:



			I thought I understood it all, then the more I read, the more confused I become!...

Looking to use the following, 
2008 VW Passat Estate 4motion diesel 

 To tow a 

IFor Williams HB403....

I only have the newer B licence. Husband kindly tows, but wondering if I can get down plated..?

1. B licence
2. Empty weight vehicle 1814 kg according to a website? 
3. Gross vehicle weight 2240kg (from V5)
4. 2000kg
5. MAM trailer 1600kg
6. Empty trailer 767kg

On the V5 it says ...
- revenue weight 1686kg
- max permissible mass 2240kg
- mass in service 1684kg

I don't know if any of them are actually the weight unladen, I'm confused.

Can I tow legally on a B if I down plate?  Horse will weigh 600kg when grown. ..

??
		
Click to expand...

2240 (GVW) + 600 (horse) + 767 (empty trailer) = 3607 so down plating trailer to 1367 will not solve that.

3607 is over the 3500 B tow limit

Solution = get vehicle with lower GVW or tow under B+E provisional rules - hubby can sit in passenger seat


----------



## GemG (16 May 2017)

Thanks for quick reply.!! ..... looks like I need to do my trailer test too !! ... it's the only time I wish I was older lol!!


----------



## ROG (16 May 2017)

GemG said:



			Thanks for quick reply.!! ..... looks like I need to do my trailer test too !! ... it's the only time I wish I was older lol!!
		
Click to expand...

Get plenty of L plate practice in with hubby in passenger seat and you could end up just needing a morning training with test in afternoon


----------



## tallyho! (16 May 2017)

That's what I did GemG... I'd been towing with one of them privileged folk what can drive what they want for quite some time before I took a test. 

Lesson in morning (8 - 12) the test at 2pm. I was SO nervous!! Glad I did it though, my reversing improved immensely!!


----------



## GemG (17 May 2017)

tallyho! said:



			That's what I did GemG... I'd been towing with one of them privileged folk what can drive what they want for quite some time before I took a test. 

Lesson in morning (8 - 12) the test at 2pm. I was SO nervous!! Glad I did it though, my reversing improved immensely!!
		
Click to expand...




ROG said:



			Get plenty of L plate practice in with hubby in passenger seat and you could end up just needing a morning training with test in afternoon
		
Click to expand...

Thanks both... yes I really should practice and then just do it!  ... it just always seems madness that my mother (who I wouldn't trust reversing her car!) is legal to tow a couple of horses and I'm not just by virtue of when we passed our tests !

...would make a good resolution for 2018 - to get test done.  It would just give so much more freedom to disappear off with horse without having to plan a military operation!


----------



## tallyho! (18 May 2017)

GemG said:



			Thanks both... yes I really should practice and then just do it!  ... it just always seems madness that my mother (who I wouldn't trust reversing her car!) is legal to tow a couple of horses and I'm not just by virtue of when we passed our tests !

...would make a good resolution for 2018 - to get test done.  It would just give so much more freedom to disappear off with horse without having to plan a military operation!
		
Click to expand...

It cost me just under £300 all in all. Shop around though I was quoted £600 by one company...


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## km-j (21 May 2017)

Hi 
Would you be able to check my towing limit please? Specs as follows:
BE
Unladen 1421
GVW 1965
GTW 1500
Trailer weight 1600
Empty trailer 767

Thanks
Kelly.


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## ROG (22 May 2017)

km-j said:



			Hi 
Would you be able to check my towing limit please? Specs as follows:
BE
Unladen 1421
GVW 1965
GTW 1500
Trailer weight 1600
Empty trailer 767

Thanks
Kelly.
		
Click to expand...

I think GTW is meant to say towing limit of 1500 so assuming that you can load a max of 733 into the trailer

FOR INFO = if the trailer was down plated to 1500 that set up could be towed by a B licence holder


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## littlen (22 May 2017)

Asking for a friend this time!

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle 1800?
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle 2250
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 2200kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres- unsure of this!
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
Ifor williams 401 770kg

Is this legal?


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## ROG (22 May 2017)

littlen said:



			Asking for a friend this time!

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle 1800?
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle 2250
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 2200kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres- unsure of this!
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "
Ifor williams 401 770kg

Is this legal?
		
Click to expand...

5 - if the trailer is plated at more than 1250 then it is illegal

At 1250 the max load for the trailer will be 480 kg

If not been down plated then the original trailer MAM will be 1600

Need to know number 5


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## littlen (23 May 2017)

I think the max load of the 401/403 is 1600 so she is illegal.

Pony is somewhere around 450kg but it would be tight even with the trailer downplated? 

She is an ifor fan, I've mentioned the Derby but he horse hates rear unload!


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## Dunpony (23 May 2017)

I've got a slightly odd request! On a pre 97 license am I towing with a 6.5t van conversion.  The van has a train weight of 9t but I'm restricted to 8.25t.  Am I legal so long as I don't overload either the van or the trailer and stay under 8.25t with the whole thing?  Thanks for your help


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## ROG (23 May 2017)

Dunpony said:



			I've got a slightly odd request! On a pre 97 license am I towing with a 6.5t van conversion.  The van has a train weight of 9t but I'm restricted to 8.25t.  Am I legal so long as I don't overload either the van or the trailer and stay under 8.25t with the whole thing?  Thanks for your help
		
Click to expand...

The 8.25 tonnes is a total plated MAM/GVW restriction so if the trailer is plated at more than 1.75 tonnes then you cannot legally drive it on your pre 97 licence


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## spugs (29 May 2017)

B licence 
Nissan x trail and 500kg pony
Would you be able to down plate a 505 to do this legally or is a single/light weight trailer the only possibility?
Thanks


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## ROG (29 May 2017)

spugs said:



			B licence 
Nissan x trail and 500kg pony
Would you be able to down plate a 505 to do this legally or is a single/light weight trailer the only possibility?
Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Bit difficult without knowing GVW of your model of Xtrail

Do you have V5 keepers doc handy ? - if yes then what is figure listed next to MAX PERMISSIBLE MASS ?
OR
If vehicle nearby then what is top figure of the four listed on the weight plate usually hidden under bonnet or in a door frame ?


----------



## spugs (29 May 2017)

I haven't bought one yet, I'll be buying to tow so I'm open to options. It will be an older model though.


----------



## ROG (29 May 2017)

spugs said:



			I haven't bought one yet, I'll be buying to tow so I'm open to options. It will be an older model though.
		
Click to expand...

I am going to ASSUME is has a GVW of 2050kg

Xtrail GVW 2050
Horse 500 + 
Needs trailer max 905 empty and plated at 1450 MAM

A HB505 can be down plated to 1450 

2050+1450=3500 so legal for B licence towing

ANSWER ASSUMES GVW IS 2050


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## spugs (29 May 2017)

Thanks a lot Rog &#128077;


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## SplashofSoy (29 May 2017)

ROG please help

I have B+E licence 
Car ssanyong korando 4x4 2015 
Towing capacity 2000kg
Gross vehicle weight 2260
Kerb weight is I think 1747kg
Towing Ifor 510 1000kg
Horse 750kg 16.3 maxi cob

Tack, water, two passengers in car. Only a small haynet in trailer.

Is this all legal, any areas of concern? I think its legal. I have 250kg ish spare in trailer and trailer isn't going to outweigh car for safety. Would always want 200kg spare on capacity.
Towball load says 80kg is this relevant?


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## ROG (30 May 2017)

SplashofSoy said:



			ROG please help

I have B+E licence 
Car ssanyong korando 4x4 2015 
Towing capacity 2000kg
Gross vehicle weight 2260
Kerb weight is I think 1747kg
Towing Ifor 510 1000kg
Horse 750kg 16.3 maxi cob

Tack, water, two passengers in car. Only a small haynet in trailer.

Is this all legal, any areas of concern? I think its legal. I have 250kg ish spare in trailer and trailer isn't going to outweigh car for safety. Would always want 200kg spare on capacity.
Towball load says 80kg is this relevant?
		
Click to expand...

Towball - needs nose weight scale (example £8 from Halfords) to check that all is ok but 80kg should be fine

As you have B+E its simple
Max tow capacity 2000
Empty trailer 1000
Horse 750 
Leaves 250 spare for trailer load

What goes in vehicle comes under the vehicle GVW and has nothing to do with the trailer

When towing with with all you have mentioned you are likely to be about 2000 for vehicle and 1750 for trailer with possibly around 50 to 70 being transferred from trailer to vehicle through the hitch so making 2050 V 1700 with a 350 difference


----------



## SplashofSoy (30 May 2017)

Thanks ROG.  I thought it looked ok but wanted to check.  Sorry for being stupid but could you explain how the 50-70 being transferred through the hitch works?  Main thing is i am within legal limits and car will be heavier than trailer for my peace of mind as i like you don't like the thought of the trailer being heavier than the car.


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## ROG (30 May 2017)

SplashofSoy said:



			Thanks ROG.  I thought it looked ok but wanted to check.  Sorry for being stupid but could you explain how the 50-70 being transferred through the hitch works?  Main thing is i am within legal limits and car will be heavier than trailer for my peace of mind as i like you don't like the thought of the trailer being heavier than the car.
		
Click to expand...

Try and lift the tow hitch - it has some weight - that weight presses down onto the car towball when hitched up - that puts weight onto the towing vehicle GVW - usually between 50 and 100 kg
Transferring that amount of weight from trailer to car


----------



## avalonskies (31 May 2017)

Hi ROG, just looking for some clarification please? Im trying to establish whether I can get away with a single trailer and a B licence. Ive got most of my numbers sorted, but just wanted to check, Does my kerb/unladen vehicle weight have to be higher than my trailer weight? For example, if kerb weight is 1350kg would I need to get a trailer downplated to 1300? Im only transporting a pony so all in all I'd be under the 3.5t limit for cat B, but my car is obviously quite light despite being a 4x4, so unsure how important the unladen vehicle v trailer weight is? Essentially, If I have to downplate to 1300 I don't think it will be feasible once myself and tack accounted for. But if I could downplate to 1400 that would work in terms of my requirements. Thank you!


----------



## ROG (31 May 2017)

avalonskies said:



			Hi ROG, just looking for some clarification please? Im trying to establish whether I can get away with a single trailer and a B licence. Ive got most of my numbers sorted, but just wanted to check, Does my kerb/unladen vehicle weight have to be higher than my trailer weight? For example, if kerb weight is 1350kg would I need to get a trailer downplated to 1300? Im only transporting a pony so all in all I'd be under the 3.5t limit for cat B, but my car is obviously quite light despite being a 4x4, so unsure how important the unladen vehicle v trailer weight is? Essentially, If I have to downplate to 1300 I don't think it will be feasible once myself and tack accounted for. But if I could downplate to 1400 that would work in terms of my requirements. Thank you!
		
Click to expand...

Kerb/trailer MAM law revoked in 2013

Please post vehicle GVW and what trailer you intend to get so I can help you


----------



## LauraElaineMorris (3 June 2017)

Hi

I'm looking at buying a trailer and a car. I would only be travelling a 475kg pony. 

Option 1
1 - What licence they hold - B (passed in 2004)
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle 1276kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle 1751kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 2951kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres 1700kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer " 470kg

Option 2
1 - What licence they hold - B (passed in 2004)
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle 1387kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle 1860kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 3370kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres 1700kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer " 470kg

Don't think option 2 is legal but struggling  to find a car in the option 1. Is it possible to downplayed a trailer of the manufacturer is unknown. 

Thanks for your help.


----------



## ROG (3 June 2017)

LauraElaineMorris said:



			Hi

I'm looking at buying a trailer and a car. I would only be travelling a 475kg pony. 

Option 1
1 - What licence they hold - B (passed in 2004)
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle 1276kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle 1751kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 2951kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres 1700kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer " 470kg

Option 2
1 - What licence they hold - B (passed in 2004)
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle 1387kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle 1860kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 3370kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres 1700kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer " 470kg

Don't think option 2 is legal but struggling  to find a car in the option 1. Is it possible to downplayed a trailer of the manufacturer is unknown. 

Thanks for your help.
		
Click to expand...

That is a very light trailer at 470 ! - what trailer is it ?

Not possible to legally down plate a trailer if the manufacturer is no longer trading

In option 1 you state number 4 is 2951 so that must be the GTW meaning the max towing capacity is 1200 (2951-1751=1200)
That is not a problem because 470+475=945 so well under the 1200 limit

You are correct that in option 2 the GVW 1860 + MAM 1700 = 3560 so 60 over the B licence towing limit


Am very curious as to what trailer this is ..........


----------



## godfreyy (7 June 2017)

Hi ROG!

Thought I totally I understood the weights, but turns out I'm really struggling with buying a car! (Have the B+E licence, have the trailer)

If I have a trailer with an unladen weight of 860 and my horses combined weight is around the 1200 mark and obviously got to make allowance for hay, water etc. - realistically what is the minimum towing capacity I'm looking for in a car?


----------



## ROG (7 June 2017)

godfreyy said:



			hi rog!

Thought i totally i understood the weights, but turns out i'm really struggling with buying a car! (have the b+e licence, have the trailer)

if i have a trailer with an unladen weight of 860 and my horses combined weight is around the 1200 mark and obviously got to make allowance for hay, water etc. - realistically what is the minimum towing capacity i'm looking for in a car?
		
Click to expand...

2200kg


----------



## Alibear (9 June 2017)

I've been reading and I believe I'm Ok but would like to confirm , passed my test back in the 90s so have full towing license. 

Landrover Freelander HSE Diesel  
Rice Richardson L16.2 Trailer
1 x 14HH horse but is a QH so 500kg

Landrovers towing capacity it 2000kg , trailer is 1000kg so maths wise it adds up.
However trailer plate states max 2500kg which would be above the cars limit, not what I'm towing but it's the trailers maximum.
Can't get a new plate as Rice/Richardson are no longer operating.


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## ROG (9 June 2017)

Alibear said:



			I've been reading and I believe I'm Ok but would like to confirm , passed my test back in the 90s so have full towing license. 

Landrover Freelander HSE Diesel  
Rice Richardson L16.2 Trailer
1 x 14HH horse but is a QH so 500kg

Landrovers towing capacity it 2000kg , trailer is 1000kg so maths wise it adds up.
However trailer plate states max 2500kg which would be above the cars limit, not what I'm towing but it's the trailers maximum.
Can't get a new plate as Rice/Richardson are no longer operating.
		
Click to expand...

No legal need to replate trailer

Towing capacity 2000
Trailer MAM 2500
Trailer empty 1000
Max load for trailer 1000

I suspect that some are taking note of the internet MYTH that says the MAM of a trailer cannot be more than the vehicle towing capacity because ... get this ... it has the CAPABILITY of being overloaded ...... well, my car has the CAPABILITY of doing 70 in a 30 limit so perhaps I should be prosectuted every time I am in a limit lower than 70 !!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Destario (11 June 2017)

I've been asked by a friend of mine if her father can teach her to tow with L plates on before she books a training and test day for her trailer test. Her father has grandfather rights (passed test in 70s I think) and she passed her test post 97. But he is insisting he can't sit in the passenger side is they have L plates on. Some definitive answer would be greatly appreciated as they are at rather an impasse! I think he can but I've said I'm not 100% sure so haven't been any help at all!


----------



## ROG (11 June 2017)

Destario said:



			I've been asked by a friend of mine if her father can teach her to tow with L plates on before she books a training and test day for her trailer test. Her father has grandfather rights (passed test in 70s I think) and she passed her test post 97. But he is insisting he can't sit in the passenger side is they have L plates on. Some definitive answer would be greatly appreciated as they are at rather an impasse! I think he can but I've said I'm not 100% sure so haven't been any help at all!
		
Click to expand...

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving





			From: DVLA Email[mailto:donotreply.contactcentre@dvla.gsi.gov.uk] 
Sent: 05 January 2012 08:31
To: **************
Subject: Re: Email DVLA - Drivers Form 14 (KMM2135528V52254L0KM)


Dear ************

Thank you for your email received on 3/1/12.Your email reference number is 808399


In order to drive a vehicle andtrailer under category B +  E  you must be supervised by a driverwith the full B  +  E  entitlement

This can be a driver who passed adriving test before 1997 and holds full B  +  E. 

The trailer can be laden.

You must display L plates. 

I  hope this helps.


Do not reply to this email. Ifyou wish to contact us again about this response then please use our ReplyForm or copy and paste the following URL in to your browser:

https://emaildvla.direct.gov.uk/emaildvla/cegemail/directgov/en/reply_form_drivers.html

When filling in the form the email reference number 808399 will be required.

Regards

L Hodgetts
Customer Enquiries Group
DVLA
		
Click to expand...


----------



## ROG (13 June 2017)

pixie27 said:



			I've tried looking through old posts on here but my brain is fried after 16 hours of work and I'm not capable of working things out for myself this evening!

Looking at trailer weights, does my car need to be capable of towing:

Trailer laden weight + weight of horse + weight of anything else in trailer

Or:

Just trailer laden weight as assume that would include horse etc. in it?

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

Easy way to set your mind at rest is to post this info -

LICENCE
B or B+E =

VEHICLE
GVW =
Towing capacity = 

TRAILER
Un-laden/empty = 
MAM =


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## CharJoey (13 June 2017)

Hello There Rog,

Please could you help me with my query?

 I have a '62 REG AUDI Q3 S LINE QUATTRO (4 WHEEL DRIVE), and a 15'3 WB who weighs approx 500kg max. 
I will only be towing only my horse on his own and just me in the car. I am looking at getting a tow bar fitted and a trailer, the question is what type of trailer could I go for, can I get a light enough trailer to not do my trailer test as I passed in Sept 1997. Or do I have to do the test. Just weighing up options at the moment, and any advice you can give would be very much appreciated! I am very concerned that the trailer will push my car down the hill as I have read some horror stories, but before I spend money getting a tow bar and a trailer test, I want to make sure its safe with my car.

1 - B
2 - 2225 KG
3 - 1625KG
4 - 2225 KG
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - UNSURE WHAT TRAILER TO BUY DEPENDENT ON WHAT i CAN TOW, looking at probably an Ifor 505 or a Bateson or Cheval Liberte, but this all depends on what type if any I can tow.
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer " - TBC

Many Thanks


----------



## ROG (13 June 2017)

CharJoey said:



			Hello There Rog,

Please could you help me with my query?

 I have a '62 REG AUDI Q3 S LINE QUATTRO (4 WHEEL DRIVE), and a 15'3 WB who weighs approx 500kg max. 
I will only be towing only my horse on his own and just me in the car. I am looking at getting a tow bar fitted and a trailer, the question is what type of trailer could I go for, can I get a light enough trailer to not do my trailer test as I passed in Sept 1997. Or do I have to do the test. Just weighing up options at the moment, and any advice you can give would be very much appreciated! I am very concerned that the trailer will push my car down the hill as I have read some horror stories, but before I spend money getting a tow bar and a trailer test, I want to make sure its safe with my car.

1 - B
2 - 2225 KG
3 - 1625KG
4 - 2225 KG
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - UNSURE WHAT TRAILER TO BUY DEPENDENT ON WHAT i CAN TOW, looking at probably an Ifor 505 or a Bateson or Cheval Liberte, but this all depends on what type if any I can tow.
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer " - TBC

Many Thanks
		
Click to expand...

B licence
Car 2225 GVW
Max trailer plated weight (MAM) will be 1275
2225 + 1275 = 3500 which is the max limit for your licence

IDEA = Bateson Derby weighs 675 empty and can be down plated via contact with Bateson from 1700 to 1275 which leaves a max of 600 for the trailer load


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## CharJoey (13 June 2017)

Ok, thanks. So if I took my test, could I tow an Ifor 505 with my car for example? Or would it be too heavy? Thanks


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## ROG (13 June 2017)

CharJoey said:



			Ok, thanks. So if I took my test, could I tow an Ifor 505 with my car for example? Or would it be too heavy? Thanks
		
Click to expand...

If your max towing capacity is 2225 then the trailer is likely to be about 900/1000 and two 500 horses will be about 1000 so lets say 2000 = well within the 2225 limit


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## Alibear (13 June 2017)

ROG said:



			No legal need to replate trailer

Towing capacity 2000
Trailer MAM 2500
Trailer empty 1000
Max load for trailer 1000

I suspect that some are taking note of the internet MYTH that says the MAM of a trailer cannot be more than the vehicle towing capacity because ... get this ... it has the CAPABILITY of being overloaded ...... well, my car has the CAPABILITY of doing 70 in a 30 limit so perhaps I should be prosectuted every time I am in a limit lower than 70 !!!!!!!!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Yes I'm worrying about that MYTH it's a hard one to kill off! Thank you for confirming.


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## Destario (13 June 2017)

Thanks, I'll let her know, I bet there'll be some 'I told you so' s!


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## EmmaLou (26 June 2017)

EmmaLou said:



			Hi Rog, I have just got off the phone to Bateson. Interestingly they said the law has now changed and they are no longer taking into account the plated weight of the trailer, apparently it has proved too complicated and too much work. It would now be the actual weight of car and trailer with load at the time of towing for example if you was to be put on a weight bridge. Have you heard about this? Could be good news for many!?
		
Click to expand...

Hi Rog, I am back again. I called Bateson to place my order this morning. I believe I spoke with Simon Bateson. I am more confused than ever, I needed the trailer to be plated at 1360kg, I have gone for the Deauville which is 860kg unladen so giving me a 500kg capacity. I am only loading a 14hh chunky pony who i believe to be around 460kg but no more than 500kg (I hope). 

I have been persuaded to plate the trailer at 1400kg placing me over the combined MAM by 40kg which he says would not be a problem as my actual loaded weights would still be less. He said how its worded seems like i would be illegal but its not. I am utterly confused. This increase is to make sure the trailer doesn't go over its limit.

Can you tell me ROG, what would be implications (slight possibility) that I had the trailer restricted to 1360kg and my pony ended up weighing a little bit more than i thought so going a touch over the plated weight. Or I have the trailer plated beyond my licence MAM limits even though its not actually weighing more. I still think I should still push to have 1360kg but Bateson said trailers can occasionally weigh more than the 860kg advertised so I may only have 460-480kg to play with. 
Ultimately I will be getting said pony weighed properly but I am struggling to get him anywhere to weigh him without a trailer.


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## ROG (26 June 2017)

EmmaLou said:



			Hi Rog, I am back again. I called Bateson to place my order this morning. I believe I spoke with Simon Bateson. I am more confused than ever, I needed the trailer to be plated at 1360kg, I have gone for the Deauville which is 860kg unladen so giving me a 500kg capacity. I am only loading a 14hh chunky pony who i believe to be around 460kg but no more than 500kg (I hope). 

I have been persuaded to plate the trailer at 1400kg placing me over the combined MAM by 40kg which he says would not be a problem as my actual loaded weights would still be less. He said how its worded seems like i would be illegal but its not. I am utterly confused. This increase is to make sure the trailer doesn't go over its limit.

Can you tell me ROG, what would be implications (slight possibility) that I had the trailer restricted to 1360kg and my pony ended up weighing a little bit more than i thought so going a touch over the plated weight. Or I have the trailer plated beyond my licence MAM limits even though its not actually weighing more. I still think I should still push to have 1360kg but Bateson said trailers can occasionally weigh more than the 860kg advertised so I may only have 460-480kg to play with. 
Ultimately I will be getting said pony weighed properly but I am struggling to get him anywhere to weigh him without a trailer.
		
Click to expand...

If you only have a B licence and go over the total of the 3500 plated weight limit then you are nor driving in accordance with your licence and will invalidate the insurance which could mean 9 points and the vehicle being seized = BIG SHOCKER !

You can TELL Bateson that giving you false legal information can land them in hot water as well as you

I suggest you copy the whole of this post and EMAIL them with it


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## L&B (5 July 2017)

I posted this separately but then came across this thread and didn't know if anyone could help? 

So I have been looking into buying a 3.5t horsebox - for something safe/reliable (&not clocked) it seems impossible with my budget of £5k max.

Considering I would only ever be traveling my 1x 14.1hh pony at 480kg (plus I worry to much about exceeding weights to even consider taking a friends pony along etc, even with a box supposedly 1200kg payload) 
It has therefore been suggested by a friend to explore the option of towing a single trailer on my 'B' license. 

Towing does not worry me - I have pulled my in-laws caravan plenty & have experience in that way (albeit a very different sensation I expect, to having your precious cargo onboard).

What I don't understand is all of the legalities surrounding plating, MAM, MVW, laden weights etc etc. 

I am looking at either a Nissan X Trail 2.2 dci - manual - kerb weight 1515kg and braked towing weight 2000kg.
OR
A Landrover Freelander t4 2.2 - manual - kerb weight 1555kg and braked towing weight 2000kg.

ALONG WITH 

An Ifor Williams 401 max gross weight 1600kg, unladen weight 740kg.


Burning question -- would I be legal?
Long term, I perhaps would take my B+E but at present (personal circumstances) this isn't possible. 
If I have to wait I will, but if I can tow legally with a single trailer; happy days!!
It's all about being safe & legal for me!!


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## ROG (5 July 2017)

L&B said:



			I posted this separately but then came across this thread and didn't know if anyone could help? 

So I have been looking into buying a 3.5t horsebox - for something safe/reliable (¬ clocked) it seems impossible with my budget of £5k max.

Considering I would only ever be traveling my 1x 14.1hh pony at 480kg (plus I worry to much about exceeding weights to even consider taking a friends pony along etc, even with a box supposedly 1200kg payload) 
It has therefore been suggested by a friend to explore the option of towing a single trailer on my 'B' license. 

Towing does not worry me - I have pulled my in-laws caravan plenty & have experience in that way (albeit a very different sensation I expect, to having your precious cargo onboard).

What I don't understand is all of the legalities surrounding plating, MAM, MVW, laden weights etc etc. 

I am looking at either a Nissan X Trail 2.2 dci - manual - kerb weight 1515kg and braked towing weight 2000kg.
OR
A Landrover Freelander t4 2.2 - manual - kerb weight 1555kg and braked towing weight 2000kg.

ALONG WITH 

An Ifor Williams 401 max gross weight 1600kg, unladen weight 740kg.


Burning question -- would I be legal?
Long term, I perhaps would take my B+E but at present (personal circumstances) this isn't possible. 
If I have to wait I will, but if I can tow legally with a single trailer; happy days!!
It's all about being safe & legal for me!!
		
Click to expand...

The important figure which you have not posted is the vehicle GVW which can be found on the internet if you know the exact model or is the top of the four figures shown on the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame - the GVW is also the max permissible weight shown on the V5 keepers form

Once that figure is known then the rest I can help you with very easily

To help you here is a list of xtrail models with their respective GVWs = https://www.carleasingmadesimple.com/data/nissan/x-trail/gross-vehicle-weight/


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## Somanyquestions (12 July 2017)

Hello there

I wanted to check i have my numbers in order before towing on a b licence. 
Having read through this thread, Rog seems to be the man in the know..
I have an 2004 X trail GMV 2050 and having just weighed it, it actually comes out at 1700kg not the 1525 that has been stated before.
Will be towing an IW 401 which states 770 unladen and will be downplated to 1450 to fall into line with the plated weight requirement not exceeding 3.5t
Horse weighs 610Kg 
Breaked weight/towing capacity is 2000kg
if my understanding is right, i will have capacity to carry an additional 350kg in the car and 70Kg in the trailer although this will not be necessary i hope! 

is there anything i have missed or does this look legal? 
Thanks in advance


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## ROG (12 July 2017)

Somanyquestions said:



			Hello there

I wanted to check i have my numbers in order before towing on a b licence. 
Having read through this thread, Rog seems to be the man in the know..
I have an 2004 X trail GMV 2050 and having just weighed it, it actually comes out at 1700kg not the 1525 that has been stated before.
Will be towing an IW 401 which states 770 unladen and will be downplated to 1450 to fall into line with the plated weight requirement not exceeding 3.5t
Horse weighs 610Kg 
Breaked weight/towing capacity is 2000kg
if my understanding is right, i will have capacity to carry an additional 350kg in the car and 70Kg in the trailer although this will not be necessary i hope! 

is there anything i have missed or does this look legal? 
Thanks in advance 


Click to expand...

PERFECT & well done for getting all the figures and laws spot on


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## Somanyquestions (13 July 2017)

ROG said:



			PERFECT & well done for getting all the figures and laws spot on
		
Click to expand...

great news, thank you very much Rog, much appreciated.


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## flat3 (18 July 2017)

ROG said:



			It would not matter if the GTW was listed as 4000 for example because the B licence max of 3500 is the vehicle GVW + the plated MAM of the trailer added together

Licence wise you have 1590 to play with in regards to the trailer plated MAM ..... BUT .... actual weight is restricted to the towing capacity of 1350

The load/horse weighs 550 but allowing for a little leeway I would say you need a minimum of 600 for the trailer load

1350 - 600 = 750 max weight for the empty trailer

Bateson Derby weighs 675 empty but is plated at 1700 so would need contact with Bateson to reduce/down plate the MAM to a max of 1590 but I would opt for a down plate to 1400 so that it gives more vehicle options in the future - costs about a tenner with Bateson to do this.
http://www.batesontrailers.com/shop/horse-trailers/derby-lightweight-horse-pony/

In virtually all down plating it is up to you yo remove current plate then send it to manufacturer with the money where upon they send you new plate to fix on yourself - metal drill bit and pop rivet gun needed

Another trailer might be the Cheval Liberte gold one which weighs 720 empty but has a plated MAM of 1600 
http://www.chevaltrailers.co.uk/gold-one


If no plate on a trailer then the total of all the tyre load ratings is deemed as the MAM
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to post again after an interval. I've saved my pennies and am looking to buy a Derby soon. As I'm new to towing I've contacted someone locally to give me a lesson when my car and trailer combo is ready to go. He asked for the weights and has said I'm very close to my towing limit, like its something to worry about. 

Limit is 1350, trailer is 675 + pony at 550 = 1225, so 125 spare

I just want to double check I'm not cutting it too close before I make the leap?


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## ROG (19 July 2017)

flat3 said:



			Sorry to post again after an interval. I've saved my pennies and am looking to buy a Derby soon. As I'm new to towing I've contacted someone locally to give me a lesson when my car and trailer combo is ready to go. He asked for the weights and has said I'm very close to my towing limit, like its something to worry about. 

Limit is 1350, trailer is 675 + pony at 550 = 1225, so 125 spare

I just want to double check I'm not cutting it too close before I make the leap?
		
Click to expand...

That is fine for licence and weight

If you were near me in Leicester then I would go out with you for FREE - with expenses covered


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## flat3 (19 July 2017)

ROG said:



			That is fine for licence and weight

If you were near me in Leicester then I would go out with you for FREE - with expenses covered
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, that's great to hear - and I wish I was near Leicester so could take you up on that!


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## lrw0250 (20 July 2017)

I'm hoping someone can advise on this one for me. My OH has his B&E test booked for September but I have my fingers crossed that he may be able to take our daughter's lead rein pony to a show next month if we can borrow a suitable trailer so need to see what our max weight on a B licence would be with our towing vehicle. 

Mercedes Vito Van
Kerb weight 1818
GVW 2770
GTW 2000

Pony only weighs 250kg. May have the option of either an IW  403, IW 505 or a Bateson. 

Thanks


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## ROG (20 July 2017)

lrw0250 said:



			I'm hoping someone can advise on this one for me. My OH has his B&E test booked for September but I have my fingers crossed that he may be able to take our daughter's lead rein pony to a show next month if we can borrow a suitable trailer so need to see what our max weight on a B licence would be with our towing vehicle. 

Mercedes Vito Van
Kerb weight 1818
GVW 2770
GTW 2000

Pony only weighs 250kg. May have the option of either an IW  403, IW 505 or a Bateson. 

Thanks 

Click to expand...

If the GVW is 2770 then on a B licence the max plated trailer weight is 750kg so no good for any horse trailer

Solution = need a vehicle with lower GVW for B licence towing

PS - GTW is likely to be 4770 with a 2000 towing capacity


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## Meeko (26 July 2017)

Hi, after some info on towing with this vehicle

Mecedes C250

B License
Unlaiden/Kerb Weight - 1505KG
GVW - 2125KG
Braked towing weight - 1800KG
Trailer - Ifor 505

Thank you


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## ROG (26 July 2017)

Meeko said:



			Hi, after some info on towing with this vehicle

Mecedes C250

B License
Unlaiden/Kerb Weight - 1505KG
GVW - 2125KG
Braked towing weight - 1800KG
Trailer - Ifor 505

Thank you 

Click to expand...

With a GVW of 2125 that leaves a max trailer plated MAM of 1375 for B towing

HB505 is 905 empty so would need down plating via contact with IW from 2340 to 1375 which will leave a max weight of 470 which can be loaded into the trailer

Solution = need a lighter trailer such as a HB 403 which is 787 empty so down plating that from 1600 to 1375 will leave 588 for trailer load


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## Meeko (26 July 2017)

Thanks ROG, the horse is 538kg so down plating wouldnt help her

Is she legal driving with the trailer empty?


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## ROG (26 July 2017)

Meeko said:



			Thanks ROG, the horse is 538kg so down plating wouldnt help her

Is she legal driving with the trailer empty?
		
Click to expand...

No because the licence goes on the plated weights not actual weights

With horse at 538 the solution of getting a lighter trailer seems to be the best option as that will leave 50kg clear (588-538=50)


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## Meeko (26 July 2017)

Thanks for all your help, shes planning on doing trailer test


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## ROG (26 July 2017)

Meeko said:



			Thanks for all your help, shes planning on doing trailer test 


Click to expand...

She can go out under L plate conditions


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## Meeko (26 July 2017)

What does this mean? (sorry)


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## ROG (26 July 2017)

Meeko said:



			What does this mean? (sorry)
		
Click to expand...

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## Meeko (26 July 2017)

thanks for all you help


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## henmother (1 August 2017)

Hello Rog , hope you can help me . I've been taking towing lessons from a local company for the last few weeks . I've been struggling with the reverse manoeuvre . Not helped by the fact that my instructor shouts and effs and jeffs at me when I make a mistake . I've just returned from a 5 hour lesson feeling physically and mentally exhausted . He's got me really demotivated and feeling like I'm useless . Problem is , it's my test tomorrow . I've got 3 hrs before my test which is going to be a combination of roadwork and reversing . Seriously considering cancelling rather than failing . Do you have any advice ? Dont think I can cope with being made to feel like I'm useless before my test .


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## ester (1 August 2017)

In lieu of ROG

1) that is awful, what on earth sort of instructor is that, if it is more than a one man band I would complain. 

2) The reverse should be able to be pretty formulaic which suits me but not everyone learns like that, see point 1, instructors should be able to deal with that. 

3) Go and take the test rather than lose the money, firstly you never know and secondly you have to do the manouveres first so won't be allowed out on the road anyway if they don't think you should be, but whether you do or don't you might get some useful feedback. 

4) Whatever the result tomorrow even if you happened to pass go and find a much much better person to have at least a session with so you are more confident.


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## ROG (1 August 2017)

henmother said:



			Hello Rog , hope you can help me . I've been taking towing lessons from a local company for the last few weeks . I've been struggling with the reverse manoeuvre . Not helped by the fact that my instructor shouts and effs and jeffs at me when I make a mistake . I've just returned from a 5 hour lesson feeling physically and mentally exhausted . He's got me really demotivated and feeling like I'm useless . Problem is , it's my test tomorrow . I've got 3 hrs before my test which is going to be a combination of roadwork and reversing . Seriously considering cancelling rather than failing . Do you have any advice ? Dont think I can cope with being made to feel like I'm useless before my test .
		
Click to expand...

Cancelling will lose you your test fee of £115 so you might as well use it as a practice

I really feel for you because there is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED to shout of swear at any candidate with the exception of the word STOP

INSTRUCTOR =  in name only as certainly not one in practice 

If you paid your money for this then please tell me why you did not cancel after the first day ?

If you do end up needing a retest then go elsewhere


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## henmother (1 August 2017)

Thank you ester and Rog. It's the only local company . I tried pass n go , but they wouldn't allow me to use my own adapted car . There is another chap but he's quite a distance away so thought I'd give this company a go , save on fuel and time . Apparently he "went easy," on me the first lesson so I suppose I'd been suckered in . I've been out on the roads a couple of times with friends in my trailer , both people thought I was safe on roads . Granted they're not instructors but they both tow , and drive all kinds of size vehicles , so I thought that might be a positive start . I think he's just torn my confidence to tatters . 
I'll go ahead with test , rather than lose the money , I'll treat it as experience . I'll be giving my hard saved cash to someone else though if /when I need to retake test . I'll probably ask him to start me off from scratch , forget about this horrid experience .Thank you both .


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## ROG (1 August 2017)

Try Peter Smythe LGV + B+E training as they have residential courses - free residential for those over 70 miles from Mansfield Notts and I am fairly sure it covers B+E ..........


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## ester (1 August 2017)

good luck for tomorrow, the main thing I found as to the difference horse towers would consider good and examiners won't is being quicker to get up to speed than you probably would with horses on board, so you have to think no live cargo . 
If it doesn't work out just forget everything that has passed and start again . 

I'm a bit worried, on the basis that most people are test worthy after a day training tops (I did about 2 hours one day, 2/3 hours another, then drove about 45 mins to test) whether the current guy has been wrecking your confidence just to make more money out of you?


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## henmother (1 August 2017)

I'll look into that , I'd need somewhere fully accessible . T12 incomplete paraplegic. There is no way I'll be going back to get shouted and swore at .


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## ROG (1 August 2017)

Those with a lot of L plate experience before they go to an instructor can easily do a morning training then test in the afternoon and pass


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## henmother (1 August 2017)

ester said:



			good luck for tomorrow, the main thing I found as to the difference horse towers would consider good and examiners won't is being quicker to get up to speed than you probably would with horses on board, so you have to think no live cargo . 
If it doesn't work out just forget everything that has passed and start again . 

I'm a bit worried, on the basis that most people are test worthy after a day training tops (I did about 2 hours one day, 2/3 hours another, then drove about 45 mins to test) whether the current guy has been wrecking your confidence just to make more money out of you?
		
Click to expand...

I've had two sessions in the yard doing the manouvres , out yesterday for 4 hours , today drove from 9-12, manouvres for around two hours . They got my test booked without me even having done an assessment drive which I found odd. It's how it's done with the intensive courses , which is strange . Thankfully I've had a few trips out with friends , and brother , so I sort of thought I'd need more training on the manouvre . I know a lot of folk struggle with reversing . 
He won't get another penny out of me . I'll find someone even if I have to travel further and the process takes longer . 
Yes , there's a lot of , quickly reaching speed , I certainly won't be in any rush when my boys in the back !! I won't be a slow coach , to the detriment of other road users , but I want my lad to have the smoothest ride possible .


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## henmother (3 August 2017)

Thankyou both for your sensible advice . I actually passed !! Fluffed up the start of the reverse manouvre but managed to correct after a shunt . Got 6 minors on road , phew !! Let the fun and games begin !


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## ROG (3 August 2017)

henmother said:



			Thankyou both for your sensible advice . I actually passed !! Fluffed up the start of the reverse manouvre but managed to correct after a shunt . Got 6 minors on road , phew !! Let the fun and games begin !
		
Click to expand...


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## henmother (3 August 2017)

thankyou very much .


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## L&B (8 August 2017)

For a friend... 
Has a VW Caddy (1.9l). 
Max towing capacity 1425kg, GVW 2211kg. 
Hoping to tow one horse 500kg.
With a single trailer unladen 655kg, Max gross weight 1400kg.
Legal??


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## ROG (9 August 2017)

L&B said:



			For a friend... 
Has a VW Caddy (1.9l). 
Max towing capacity 1425kg, GVW 2211kg. 
Hoping to tow one horse 500kg.
With a single trailer unladen 655kg, Max gross weight 1400kg.
Legal??
		
Click to expand...

B+E licence = legal with 245kg trailer load to spare

B licence = illegal as total MAM is 3611 (2211+1400) so over 3500 total MAM limit
Solution = down plate trailer from 1400 to 1250 which leaves 95kg trailer load to spare


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## ester (14 August 2017)

henmother I just saw your update, brilliant


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## Cherylx (14 August 2017)

I hope this is the correct place. If not, please redirect me. 

Does anybody tow with a Nissian Xtrail? Looking to trade in my car for a bigger one (albeit older) to tow and these seem reasonably priced? 

From what I have read, they sound reliable. Any thoughts?


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## ROG (15 August 2017)

Cherylx said:



			I hope this is the correct place. If not, please redirect me. 

Does anybody tow with a Nissian Xtrail? Looking to trade in my car for a bigger one (albeit older) to tow and these seem reasonably priced? 

From what I have read, they sound reliable. Any thoughts?
		
Click to expand...

Loads on here tow with them

They are particularly useful for towing one horse with a lightweight (usually down plated) trailer on a B licence


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## henmother (15 August 2017)

ester said:



			henmother I just saw your update, brilliant 

Click to expand...

Thankyou . Our first trip out was somewhat of a disaster. Horse went over the breech bar while loaded up ready for the return journey . Horrifying . Thankfully some girls were on hand to help release the bars . Horse has never ever went over so it was very unexpected , but serves as a warning to us all . Be prepared for the worst when towing . He is fine thankfully , despite the fact I was a jibbering wreck. We were at a venue that I'd usually ride to , around 20 mins ride away . Thought a little familiar trip would be best for our maiden voyage.  Trailer back to dealers Thursday to have internal breech bar holder replaced and a new tie up ring installed . Lots of empty trailer trips out for me to try and rebuild my confidence .


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## EmmaLou (15 August 2017)

Thought I'd come back with an update. Picked up my new Bateson on Saturday. First time hitching and towing with over 35 mile drive home to practice, no issues couldn't have gone any better, although reversing needs more practice as to park it I have to do an uphill reverse around a corner! Which I managed but took a while lol. Driving home, nerves vanished as soon as I left the car park, this trailer follows your car very nicely and not too big/long. Took it for its maiden voyage with pony on-board next day and even better with a horse in it. 

So I thought some might be interested in my set up...
Car- Kia Sportage KX-3 AWD, MAM 2140kg, towing capacity 2000kg 
Trailer - Bateson Derby, unladen 675kg, plated MAM 1360kg, available capacity 685kg
Pony - on a weight bridge 506kg
Licence - B


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## ROG (15 August 2017)

EmmaLou said:



			Thought I'd come back with an update. Picked up my new Bateson on Saturday. First time hitching and towing with over 35 mile drive home to practice, no issues couldn't have gone any better, although reversing needs more practice as to park it I have to do an uphill reverse around a corner! Which I managed but took a while lol. Driving home, nerves vanished as soon as I left the car park, this trailer follows your car very nicely and not too big/long. Took it for its maiden voyage with pony on-board next day and even better with a horse in it. 

So I thought some might be interested in my set up...
Car- Kia Sportage KX-3 AWD, MAM 2140kg, towing capacity 2000kg 
Trailer - Bateson Derby, unladen 675kg, plated MAM 1360kg, available capacity 685kg
Pony - on a weight bridge 506kg
Licence - B






Click to expand...

What a great post with a picture as well as all the required information for towing on a B licence


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## EmmaLou (15 August 2017)

Thank you for your advice ROG!


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## Cherylx (15 August 2017)

Great, thank you very much!!


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## sidsmum (21 August 2017)

Hello,
Getting myself confused here!  I have my B&E entitlement on my licence and have been happily towing an ifor 505 with two horses (weighing just over 1000kg together) with no problem.

However, my trusty tow car (Hyundai Terracan) is becoming less and less, well, trusty and is costing more and more money. It has to go to the garage today as the turbo is not kicking in.

I can't afford to replace it with another big 4x4. Can't afford the outlay and can't afford to run it as my main car. (At the moment my mum drives it but she no longer works etc so cannot afford it either).

Otto, one of my horses has just been retired to a light hack and the only solution I can see so far is to replace the car with a smaller 4x4 like a Grand Vitara or something (or x trail or similar if vitara is too small) and only tow one horse at 520kg.

My ifor is an old pre '97 trailer with an aluminium floor and I would probably take the partition out as Bria travels better without it when on her own.


Would this work and would I need to downplate my trailer?

I was under the impression that it was the car's towing capacity and the fully laden weight of the trailer that had to be taken into account but after googling a little I am finding lots of conflicting advice, particularly in this thread here>>> https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...&t=1019747&i=0

If anyone can help shed light I would be most grateful!
If my trailer is too heavy then are other makes lighter i.e. Bateson. I'm not keen on single trailers, and a quick look on horsemart only returned 2 in my area, so I'm not sure that would be a solution.

Many thanks!
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...sed-re-towing-and-weights#jiSsRLdMePUMK8GU.99


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## ROG (21 August 2017)

There is no law or rule which requires you to down plate a trailer so it can be within the towing capacity of a vehicle

Down plating is only needed to keep the total of the plated weights under 3500kg for B licence towing or for keeping under EU tacho regs

This is legal on a B+E licence - 

Vehicle Towing limit 1600

Trailer plated MAM 2340
Trailer empty 1000
Trailer load 550

That leaves 50 spare to load into trailer


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## sidsmum (21 August 2017)

Thank you, that makes it clearer!  One less thing to worry about!


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## Sheep (21 August 2017)

henmother said:



			Thankyou . Our first trip out was somewhat of a disaster. Horse went over the breech bar while loaded up ready for the return journey . Horrifying . Thankfully some girls were on hand to help release the bars . Horse has never ever went over so it was very unexpected , but serves as a warning to us all . Be prepared for the worst when towing . He is fine thankfully , despite the fact I was a jibbering wreck. We were at a venue that I'd usually ride to , around 20 mins ride away . Thought a little familiar trip would be best for our maiden voyage.  Trailer back to dealers Thursday to have internal breech bar holder replaced and a new tie up ring installed . Lots of empty trailer trips out for me to try and rebuild my confidence .
		
Click to expand...

Congrats on passing henmother! Funny, I was wondering how you were getting on recently, glad to see you are still very much in the saddle!


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## PonyIAmNotFood (24 August 2017)

Morning, going looking at a towing veh later but want to make sure i can tow with it. 

1 - What licence they hold - B&E
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the*towing*vehicle = 1415
3 - GVW of the*towing*vehicle = unsure - it is a Volvo v70 tdi, 2.5L, W reg - I have googled but can't find the GVW?
4 -*towing*capacity of the*towing*vehicle = 1800
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer = 2700
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer = 1000

I'm going looking this afternoon if anyone can assist! Thank you


----------



## ROG (24 August 2017)

PonyIAmNotFood said:



			Morning, going looking at a towing veh later but want to make sure i can tow with it. 

1 - What licence they hold - B&E
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the*towing*vehicle = 1415
3 - GVW of the*towing*vehicle = unsure - it is a Volvo v70 tdi, 2.5L, W reg - I have googled but can't find the GVW?
4 -*towing*capacity of the*towing*vehicle = 1800
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer = 2700
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer = 1000

I'm going looking this afternoon if anyone can assist! Thank you
		
Click to expand...

With B+E you do not need to be concerned with GVW so no problem there with not knowing figure

Max actual weight which can be towed = 1800
Empty trailer = 1000
Max load to put in trailer = 800


----------



## PonyIAmNotFood (24 August 2017)

Fabulous, thank you. It's my dad who will be driving with the b&e. I am on a B, how would I find out the gvw to know if I could tow? Thank you again!


----------



## ROG (24 August 2017)

PonyIAmNotFood said:



			Fabulous, thank you. It's my dad who will be driving with the b&e. I am on a B, how would I find out the gvw to know if I could tow? Thank you again!
		
Click to expand...

Trailer MAM of 2700 is too high for you to tow on a B licence but you can - and I strongly suggest this - tow under B+E provisional rules with DAD sitting in passenger seat all the time - that way DAD does not need to be insured on public roads = saving money and you get loads of practice

GVW = 
V5 keepers doc listed as max authorised mass
Weight plate usually hidden under bonnet or in a door frame - top figure of the 4 listed on it

GVW ??? + Trailer MAM 2700 cannot total more than 3500 for towing alone on a B licence


----------



## PonyIAmNotFood (24 August 2017)

Good to know, thank you


----------



## Lolabug (27 August 2017)

Hello, I am looking to swap my car so I can tow (already have B&E licence) my horse is around 560kg and 15.2hh. Trailer i was looking to buy was a ifor 505 or bateson. My question is can anyone recommend a good towing car which doubles up as an everyday car? Thanks


----------



## ROG (27 August 2017)

Lolabug said:



			Hello, I am looking to swap my car so I can tow (already have B&E licence) my horse is around 560kg and 15.2hh. Trailer i was looking to buy was a ifor 505 or bateson. My question is can anyone recommend a good towing car which doubles up as an everyday car? Thanks
		
Click to expand...

4X4 Skoda Octavia seems to be good all rounder according to many on here


----------



## Leo Walker (29 August 2017)

Not a horse trailer towing question exactly and probably a fairly stupid question, but I have literally no idea about towing!

I've got a horse and carriage that I need to transport. Can I tow one of these on a B licence?

http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/117029686/trailer.html?link=/classifieds/trailers?page=4

I cant seem to find out the weight of them anywhere, the carriage would be 250kgs at the most. Would a standard sort of estate car pull that?

If I was to eventually get a 3.5ton horsebox could I tow it with that?  I assume that would need a trailer test?

EDITED to say I think the weight of that size trailer should be about 200kgs


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## ROG (29 August 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			Not a horse trailer towing question exactly and probably a fairly stupid question, but I have literally no idea about towing!

I've got a horse and carriage that I need to transport. Can I tow one of these on a B licence?

http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/117029686/trailer.html?link=/classifieds/trailers?page=4

I cant seem to find out the weight of them anywhere, the carriage would be 250kgs at the most. Would a standard sort of estate car pull that?

If I was to eventually get a 3.5ton horsebox could I tow it with that?  I assume that would need a trailer test?

EDITED to say I think the weight of that size trailer should be about 200kgs
		
Click to expand...







That to me looks like an un-braked trailer so the max for trailer with its load will be 750kg
That assumption being correct then it can be towed on a B licence as long as the vehicle has an empty weight of at least 1500kg

Check handbook or V5 keepers doc under mass in service figure to check the 1500


----------



## Leo Walker (29 August 2017)

It doesnt have to be that one. I just need something to put the carriage in, so I could look specifically for an unbraked one if that keeps me within the limits. 

Now to look for a car with a mass of 1500kg max that doesnt cost the earth to run.

Thanks for your help, its much appreciated.


----------



## ROG (29 August 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			It doesnt have to be that one. I just need something to put the carriage in, so I could look specifically for an unbraked one if that keeps me within the limits. 

Now to look for a car with a mass of 1500kg max that doesnt cost the earth to run.

Thanks for your help, its much appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

If you get a trailer with a plated MAM over 750kg then the B licence towing law applies which is - the plated GVW of the vehicle added to the trailer plated MAM must not total more than 3500kg


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## ester (4 September 2017)

ROG.. several people have just said elsewhere that having to downplate a trailer is a myth, any thoughts on that please?


----------



## ROG (8 September 2017)

ester said:



			ROG.. several people have just said elsewhere that having to downplate a trailer is a myth, any thoughts on that please?
		
Click to expand...

CORRECT = IT IS A MYTH for those with B+E licences but not for those with B licences who need to conform to the max MAM 3500 law


----------



## SatNagNoo (13 September 2017)

Hi I was wondering if you could tell me if my friend and I would be ok with a trailer and car combo?  We're considering selling our 3.5t lorry for a trailer.  

She's having a seat leon estate - minimum kerbweight 1251, maximum towing weight braked 1800, gross vehicle weight 1890.
We're looking into the bateson deaville at 860kg or Cheval Liberte One at 750kg.  And our cob is 420kg.  We're old and took our tests pre 1997


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## ROG (13 September 2017)

SatNagNoo said:



			Hi I was wondering if you could tell me if my friend and I would be ok with a trailer and car combo?  We're considering selling our 3.5t lorry for a trailer.  

She's having a seat leon estate - minimum kerbweight 1251, maximum towing weight braked 1800, gross vehicle weight 1890.
We're looking into the bateson deaville at 860kg or Cheval Liberte One at 750kg.  And our cob is 420kg.  We're old and took our tests pre 1997 

Click to expand...

B+E licence = ok
1800 is the max actual towing weight and 860 + 420 = 1280 so well within the 1800 limit


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## SatNagNoo (13 September 2017)

Thank you so much.  We are only half an hour from Leicester, if we get a trailer, could we possibly arrange for you to come over a give us a lesson please


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## ROG (13 September 2017)

SatNagNoo said:



			Thank you so much.  We are only half an hour from Leicester, if we get a trailer, could we possibly arrange for you to come over a give us a lesson please 

Click to expand...

Certainly - be happy to do so with my expenses (if any) covered


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## sandyjayne (20 September 2017)

Hi Rog,

Hope I get this right!

1-BE
2-1977
3- 2600
4- 2500
5- 2600
6- 1000 

Only passed my B+E test yesterday and am trailer hunting but firstly need to know the legal bit! It is very confusing - Thanks in advance


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## ROG (20 September 2017)

sandyjayne said:



			Hi Rog,

Hope I get this right!

1-BE
2-1977
3- 2600
4- 2500
5- 2600
6- 1000 

Only passed my B+E test yesterday and am trailer hunting but firstly need to know the legal bit! It is very confusing - Thanks in advance
		
Click to expand...

Firstly this = 




























With a towing capacity of 2500 and an empty trailer weight of 1000 means you can legally load 1500 into the trailer which will still be within 100 of the trailer 2600 MAM limit so legal under B+E rules


----------



## sandyjayne (20 September 2017)

Excellent thank you so much! I was 90% certain I had it all figured out but still had an element of doubt! Time to invest in a towbar now! Thanks again


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## harleyboy (2 October 2017)

Hi

Looking for some advise on what suitable car will be able to tow I have BE licence

Ifor 506 - unladen weight 950

2 x Horses weight 1100kg

I am thinking anything that would tow 2500kg

Please correct me if I am wrong

I am looking at possibly Kia Sorrento?

Thanks


----------



## ROG (2 October 2017)

harleyboy said:



			Hi

Looking for some advise on what suitable car will be able to tow I have BE licence

Ifor 506 - unladen weight 950

2 x Horses weight 1100kg

I am thinking anything that would tow 2500kg

Please correct me if I am wrong

I am looking at possibly Kia Sorrento?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

2200 towing capacity should suffice

So many types of towcar that it will probably come down to what you personally like and what you can afford


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## harleyboy (5 October 2017)

Thsts great, thank you


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## spugs (12 October 2017)

I have a Nissan x trail SVE DCI
Tow weight 2000kg
Max permissible mass 2050
An ifor 505 and a 500kg pony

Can I down plate my trailer so I can tow legally with out doing the tow test? 

Thanks


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## ROG (12 October 2017)

spugs said:



			I have a Nissan x trail SVE DCI
Tow weight 2000kg
Max permissible mass 2050
An ifor 505 and a 500kg pony

Can I down plate my trailer so I can tow legally with out doing the tow test? 

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

HB505 is 905 empty 
Pony is 500
Total weight to be towed = 1405

Down plate trailer to 1450 leaves 45 spare so YES it can be done

IW will probably charge you about £50 - you call them - you remove weight plate - you send them plate with money - they send you new plate - you fit new plate


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## Cherylx (23 October 2017)

I need serious help as I cannot get my head round the weight thing! 

If I have a Nissan xtrail... can I tow my single 500kg horse in a ifor 505 or ifor 510? 

I intend to buy trailer now anyway. I also intend to do my test next year but I wonder if getting a 505 meaning I can tow now. 

Please help. &#128522;


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## ROG (24 October 2017)

Cherylx said:



			I need serious help as I cannot get my head round the weight thing! 

If I have a Nissan xtrail... can I tow my single 500kg horse in a ifor 505 or ifor 510? 

I intend to buy trailer now anyway. I also intend to do my test next year but I wonder if getting a 505 meaning I can tow now. 

Please help. &#55357;&#56842;
		
Click to expand...

What is the GVW of the Xtrail ?
GVW is the top of the 4 figures on the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame - it is also the max permissible mass listed on the DVLA V5 keepers doc

ASSUMING the GVW is 2050 then the HB 505 would need to be down plated from 2340 to 1450 and as it weighs 905 empty that will leave a max trailer load of 545
The HB510 would need down plating from 2584 to 1450 but as it weighs 1000 empty that only leaves 450 for the trailer load so not enough for a 500 horse

Down plating would need a call to the manufacturer (IW) and then this is the procedure
You remove the plate
You send plate with fee (about £50) to IW
IW send you new plate
You fit new plate

B licence towing law - the plated GVW of the vehicle added to the plated weight of the trailer (MAM) must not total more than 3500kg


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## taylor301709 (6 November 2017)

ive got a ford kuga 17 plate 
looking to get a ifor Williams 403 
im on a B license 
im unsure of the weights but I know my car can tow 1800kg and its unladen weight is 2100, so can I tow a single trailer that's been down plated with a horse that weighs 550kg without taking a test?


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## ROG (6 November 2017)

taylor301709 said:



			ive got a ford kuga 17 plate 
looking to get a ifor Williams 403 
im on a B license 
im unsure of the weights but I know my car can tow 1800kg and its unladen weight is 2100, so can I tow a single trailer that's been down plated with a horse that weighs 550kg without taking a test?
		
Click to expand...

GVW not unladen is about 2100 but depends which of these models you have = https://www.carleasingmadesimple.com/data/ford/kuga/gross-vehicle-weight/ ???

IF the model you choose in that list has a GVW of 2100 then the HB403 can be down plated to 1400 from 1600 for about £50 via contact with IW

At 1400 the HB 403 can be loaded with a max of 633kg as it is 767 empty


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## taylor301709 (6 November 2017)

ROG said:



			GVW not unladen is about 2100 but depends which of these models you have = https://www.carleasingmadesimple.com/data/ford/kuga/gross-vehicle-weight/ ???

IF the model you choose in that list has a GVW of 2100 then the HB403 can be down plated to 1400 from 1600 for about £50 via contact with IW

At 1400 the HB 403 can be loaded with a max of 633kg as it is 767 empty
		
Click to expand...


thank you, I have the basic model one the zetec, I used to  pull a rice Europa but have now stopped as I don't think I can under my b license, im unsure of the weighs of my rice box. 
is


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## ROG (6 November 2017)

taylor301709 said:



			thank you, I have the basic model one the zetec, I used to  pull a rice Europa but have now stopped as I don't think I can under my b license, im unsure of the weighs of my rice box. 
is
		
Click to expand...

Most Rice trailers have lost their weight plates so the MAM of the trailer is deemed to be the total of the tyre load ratings = see post number 3000 of this thread for more info

Which EXACT model is it in that link ?


----------



## taylor301709 (6 November 2017)

ROG said:



			Most Rice trailers have lost their weight plates so the MAM of the trailer is deemed to be the total of the tyre load ratings = see post number 3000 of this thread for more info

Which EXACT model is it in that link ?
		
Click to expand...

Thank you, ill have a look and find out the MAM of my rice  
https://www.carleasingmadesimple.com/car-leasing/ford/kuga-estate/76264/ << this is my car


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## ROG (6 November 2017)

taylor301709 said:



			Thank you, ill have a look and find out the MAM of my rice  
https://www.carleasingmadesimple.com/car-leasing/ford/kuga-estate/76264/ << this is my car
		
Click to expand...

Thanks - I was concerned that it might have been a model with only a 1300 max tow capacity but that one is ok


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## taylor301709 (6 November 2017)

ROG said:



			Thanks - I was concerned that it might have been a model with only a 1300 max tow capacity but that one is ok
		
Click to expand...

thanks, could I tow a 505 with my car on a B license?


----------



## ROG (6 November 2017)

taylor301709 said:



			thanks, could I tow a 505 with my car on a B license?
		
Click to expand...

Only by down plating it to 1400 but as it weighs 905 empty that leaves 495 max for its load

Assuming this is with a GVW 2100 car


----------



## taylor301709 (6 November 2017)

ROG said:



			Only by down plating it to 1400 but as it weighs 905 empty that leaves 495 max for its load

Assuming this is with a GVW 2100 car
		
Click to expand...

sorry for all the questions? what other trailers could I possibly look at what would have enough to carry a 550kg horse? on my B license


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## ROG (6 November 2017)

taylor301709 said:



			sorry for all the questions? what other trailers could I possibly look at what would have enough to carry a 550kg horse? on my B license
		
Click to expand...

Bateson Derby
Cheval liberte 1003xl


----------



## Fourtoomany (15 November 2017)

I&#8217;ve followed, contributed, searched and referenced this thread over the years and I just thought I&#8217;d pop by today to say WOOOHOOO as I&#8217;ve just passed my test today with 2 minors.

No it wasn&#8217;t cheap, and you get out what you put in...but no more worrying or grey areas for me as it&#8217;s now all legal. Thank goodness! Definitely worth doing it, as trying to work it all &#8220;legally&#8221; is just so limiting. Go for it!


----------



## ROG (15 November 2017)

Fourtoomany said:



			Ive followed, contributed, searched and referenced this thread over the years and I just thought Id pop by today to say WOOOHOOO as Ive just passed my test today with 2 minors.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Fourtoomany (15 November 2017)

Thanks &#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;


----------



## Lolabug (21 November 2017)

Hello ROG


I have already got a trailer, however my dad is now changing his car, meaning I need to get a new car which can double up to pull my 15.2hh mare weighing 540kg on average. Can you help which car would not only be better to tow but also legal. 

I am aware I will have to down plate the trailer.

LICENCE
 B or B+E = B

 VEHICLE Ford Kuga 2.0 TDCI (looking to buy)
 Kerb = 1613KG
 GVW = 2130KG
 Towing capacity = 2100KG
 GTW = ?

 TRAILER ifor 505
 Unladen = 905kg
 MAM = 2340kg

Many Thanks


----------



## ROG (21 November 2017)

Lolabug said:



			Hello ROG


I have already got a trailer, however my dad is now changing his car, meaning I need to get a new car which can double up to pull my 15.2hh mare weighing 540kg on average. Can you help which car would not only be better to tow but also legal. 

I am aware I will have to down plate the trailer.

LICENCE
 B or B+E = B

 VEHICLE Ford Kuga 2.0 TDCI (looking to buy)
 Kerb = 1613KG
 GVW = 2130KG
 Towing capacity = 2100KG
 GTW = ?

 TRAILER ifor 505
 Unladen = 905kg
 MAM = 2340kg

Many Thanks
		
Click to expand...

B licence rules so max 3500 limit on the total of the plated weights

Car 2130 + trailer 2340 = 4470 so over the 3500 limit

No solution using this trailer - you need a lighter trailer


----------



## Lolabug (21 November 2017)

Thanks ROG if I got the car but got my dad to drive as he has B+E licence can the Kuga legally tow that trailer?

Could I also not get the trailer downplated or would that still not work?

Thanks


----------



## ROG (21 November 2017)

Lolabug said:



			Thanks ROG if I got the car but got my dad to drive as he has B+E licence can the Kuga legally tow that trailer?

Could I also not get the trailer downplated or would that still not work?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Down plating will not work because it would need to be 1370 which means with an empty weight of 905 will only leave 465 for the load and your horse is 540

YOU drive it with DAD in passenger seat ......

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


----------



## tallyho! (21 November 2017)

Fourtoomany said:



			Ive followed, contributed, searched and referenced this thread over the years and I just thought Id pop by today to say WOOOHOOO as Ive just passed my test today with 2 minors.

No it wasnt cheap, and you get out what you put in...but no more worrying or grey areas for me as its now all legal. Thank goodness! Definitely worth doing it, as trying to work it all legally is just so limiting. Go for it! 

Click to expand...

Fabulous! Well done you - isn't it a great feeling?! Woohhooo indeed welcome to the club.


----------



## Fourtoomany (21 November 2017)

Thank you! It absolutely is the best feeling in the world...just as a euphoric sense of freedom as when I passed my driving test. I really would reccomend it to anyone who is in any doubt about the legalities of their combinations. Just bite the bullet and do it!


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## christie (30 November 2017)

Hello ROG

I'm looking for advice. I am looking to co-own a HB511 trailer (1,000kg). I will only be taking my one horse  (16.1hh so approve 600 - 650kg?). Together the weight is between 1,600 and 1,700.  

I currently have a RR Evoque which initially I though I'd add a tow bar as it pulls 1,900 but the weight of the car is approx 1,650 and I've been reading that you shouldn't pull a trailer that is more than 85% weight of the vehicle. I'm now confused! 

I was also looking at swapping it for a Skoda Yeti DSG (tows 2,100kg but only weighs 1,550kg).

Would either of the cars be able to tow the required amount? Or do I need to move up in size to something like a Hyundai Santa Fe? 

Thanks in advance Rog. 

A very confused Christie...


----------



## ROG (1 December 2017)

christie said:



			Hello ROG

I'm looking for advice. I am looking to co-own a HB511 trailer (1,000kg). I will only be taking my one horse  (16.1hh so approve 600 - 650kg?). Together the weight is between 1,600 and 1,700.  

I currently have a RR Evoque which initially I though I'd add a tow bar as it pulls 1,900 but the weight of the car is approx 1,650 and I've been reading that you shouldn't pull a trailer that is more than 85% weight of the vehicle. I'm now confused! 

I was also looking at swapping it for a Skoda Yeti DSG (tows 2,100kg but only weighs 1,550kg).

Would either of the cars be able to tow the required amount? Or do I need to move up in size to something like a Hyundai Santa Fe? 

Thanks in advance Rog. 

A very confused Christie...
		
Click to expand...

85% advice is for caravans only

Where possible it is better to have the actual weight of the towing vehicle heavier than the trailer but many modern vehicles are designed to safely tow more than their actual weight

Your vehicle is going to be heavier than 1650 at the time of towing unless anything including the driver that goes in it weigh nothing !!

A B+E licence is needed for your set up


----------



## christie (2 December 2017)

Thank you ROG. I'm 47 do got the licence sorted just need to consider the car... I'll pop back if I have any further questions. Thank You!


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## ROG (11 December 2017)

christie said:



			Thank you ROG. I'm 47 do got the licence sorted just need to consider the car... I'll pop back if I have any further questions. Thank You!
		
Click to expand...

You are welcome


----------



## splash1 (12 December 2017)

Hi, we are looking at updating our tow car, I think our current setup is ok, but would like to know what cars i can look (what weights) at which would be legal to tow with

mum tows the trailer so has a licence pre 1997
I have an Ifor williams 511
currently have a kia sorrento 2005 xe 
will be to tow 2 welsh cobs probably atleast 500kg each


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## ROG (13 December 2017)

splash1 said:



			Hi, we are looking at updating our tow car, I think our current setup is ok, but would like to know what cars i can look (what weights) at which would be legal to tow with

mum tows the trailer so has a licence pre 1997
I have an Ifor williams 511
currently have a kia sorrento 2005 xe 
will be to tow 2 welsh cobs probably atleast 500kg each
		
Click to expand...

Any vehicle with at least a 2200 towing capacity should suffice

If you have a car licence then you can tow with MUM in passenger seat with L plates fitted and insurer informed


----------



## splash1 (13 December 2017)

Thank you Rog,

I didn't know I could tow with L plates, is there any restrictions on how /what you can tow on L plates?


----------



## ROG (13 December 2017)

splash1 said:



			Thank you Rog,

I didn't know I could tow with L plates, is there any restrictions on how /what you can tow on L plates?
		
Click to expand...

Same as anyone else driving under B+E laws/rules or to put it another way ..... if your MUM can legally do it on her B+E then so can you with her sat next to you



*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


----------



## Lolabug (13 December 2017)

Hello ROG

I posted a a few months back, after much debate I am booked in to do my B+E test in January (eek!), anyway I have already got a trailer, ideally don't want to have to sell the trailer if possible. But all being well and I pass my test in January I am looking at getting a Ford Kuga or VW Tiguan, can you tell me if these care would be legal?


 LICENCE
 B or B+E = B+E (hopefully)

 VEHICLE Ford Kuga 2.0 TDCI 
 Kerb = 1613KG
 GVW = 2130KG
 Towing capacity = 2100KG
 GTW = ?

 VEHICLE VW Tiguan
 Kerb = 1688KG
 GVW = 2200KG
 Towing capacity = 2000KG
 GTW = ?


 TRAILER ifor 505
 Unladen = 905kg
 MAM = 2340kg

 Many Thanks


----------



## ROG (13 December 2017)

Lolabug said:



			Hello ROG

I posted a a few months back, after much debate I am booked in to do my B+E test in January (eek!), anyway I have already got a trailer, ideally don't want to have to sell the trailer if possible. But all being well and I pass my test in January I am looking at getting a Ford Kuga or VW Tiguan, can you tell me if these care would be legal?


 LICENCE
 B or B+E = B+E (hopefully)

 VEHICLE Ford Kuga 2.0 TDCI 
 GVW = 2130KG
 Towing capacity = 2100KG


 VEHICLE VW Tiguan
 GVW = 2200KG
 Towing capacity = 2000KG



 TRAILER ifor 505
 Unladen = 905kg
 MAM = 2340kg

 Many Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Using B+E rules - 

Kuga = max load for trailer 1195

Tiguan = max load for trailer 1095


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## ROG (23 December 2017)

Xmas/New year holls bump


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## tallyho! (23 December 2017)

Merry Christmas happy tow-ers! 

Merry Christmas ROG and thanks for all your help in 2017


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## Kizzy2004 (1 January 2018)

Hi there

Happy New Year

I&#8217;m hoping for some advice on towing.

I currently have an ordinary B license and plan to do the test shortly.

The car I have at the moment is a 2016 Kia Sportage AWD

The towing capacity is 2,200
Min kerb weight 1,690
Max kerb weight 1,831
GVM is 2,250

Trailer iw505
Unladen weight 905
Weight capacity 1,435
Max gross weight 2,340

I know I wouldn&#8217;t be able to tow the max trailer capacity with the vehicle.  

I have 2 ponies weighing 350 and 400kg apx respectively and the likelihood of them both being taken out together is unlikely.

However my questions are as follows;

Would the car be capable of safely towing the trailer staying a reasonable amount under the vehicle towing capacity?  If the vehicle was ok would it be reasonable to take both ponies within capacity or would I have to ensure it&#8217;s only one at a time?

My friend has kindly offered me the use of her trailer to practise for my test, I&#8217;ve towed small trailers before but would like to practice with a larger trailer, could I do this legally in my current license with an empty trailer?  And if I wanted to weight it down with something like bedding/feed etc what wiggle room would I have on the B license?

Also finally, if all being well with the vehicles capacity, could I legally tow without the license on L plates with someone&#8217;s who&#8217;s passed pre 1997? I&#8217;d stil want to do my license anyway but would be useful whilst practising to go to the odd lesson down the road.

Thanks in advance for your help


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## ROG (1 January 2018)

Kizzy2004 said:



			Hi there

Happy New Year

I&#8217;m hoping for some advice on towing.

I currently have an ordinary B license and plan to do the test shortly.

The car I have at the moment is a 2016 Kia Sportage AWD

The towing capacity is 2,200
Min kerb weight 1,690
Max kerb weight 1,831
GVM is 2,250

Trailer iw505
Unladen weight 905
Weight capacity 1,435
Max gross weight 2,340

I know I wouldn&#8217;t be able to tow the max trailer capacity with the vehicle.  

I have 2 ponies weighing 350 and 400kg apx respectively and the likelihood of them both being taken out together is unlikely.

However my questions are as follows;

Would the car be capable of safely towing the trailer staying a reasonable amount under the vehicle towing capacity?  If the vehicle was ok would it be reasonable to take both ponies within capacity or would I have to ensure it&#8217;s only one at a time?

My friend has kindly offered me the use of her trailer to practise for my test, I&#8217;ve towed small trailers before but would like to practice with a larger trailer, could I do this legally in my current license with an empty trailer?  And if I wanted to weight it down with something like bedding/feed etc what wiggle room would I have on the B license?
		
Click to expand...

GVW 2250 + 2340 = 4790 so well over the 3500 limit for B towing
Whether trailer empty or loaded the plated weight stays the same and that is what licences go on

this might help - even with 100 year old great grand parent in the passenger seat - 
*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


Under B+E licence rules you can load a max of 1295 into the trailer with your set up so 750 of ponies is easily ok


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## Kizzy2004 (1 January 2018)

Thanks ROG for your prompt response.

I&#8217;m easily confused I&#8217;m afraid so you may need to bare with me.

So the vehicle would be fine with the ponies I have under the b+e license once I&#8217;ve taken my test which is great.

In regards to towing the empty trailer, is that a no?  It&#8217;s fine if not I&#8217;ve driven and reversed small car trailers so I&#8217;m happy to go on that basis and have some lessons before the test.

Also with the L plates I can tow as long as I have the L plates, adequate insurance and someone who passed their test pre 97 and held for at least 3years?


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## ROG (1 January 2018)

Kizzy2004 said:



			Thanks ROG for your prompt response.

Im easily confused Im afraid so you may need to bare with me.

1 = So the vehicle would be fine with the ponies I have under the b+e license once Ive taken my test which is great.

2 = In regards to towing the empty trailer, is that a no?  Its fine if not Ive driven and reversed small car trailers so Im happy to go on that basis and have some lessons before the test.

3 = Also with the L plates I can tow as long as I have the L plates, adequate insurance and someone who passed their test pre 97 and held for at least 3years?
		
Click to expand...

1 = yes
2 = no because the plated weight remains the same
3 = yes with anyone over age 21 who has had B+E for 3+ years

If you can get hold of a box type trailer plated between 1000 and 1250 then you can tow it on your own as well as use it for the test providing the vehicle has extra mirrors for the examiner to see both sides of the vehicle/trailer
INFO - the trailer for test must be loaded with 600kg of sand bags or ibc of water


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## Kizzy2004 (1 January 2018)

That&#8217;s great, thanks so much for your help, think I&#8217;ve got it clear in my head now.

I will use the instructors vehicle and trailer for the test I would just like to drive around with a horse trailer on my car a few times before putting the ponies in but sure I&#8217;ll be able to persuade someone with the entitlement to sit with me.

Thanks again for your help.


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## Laura2408 (5 January 2018)

1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle 1500
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle 2240
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 2200
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres- 1600
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer  770

Pony weight 430kg

Is this legal ROG?


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## ROG (5 January 2018)

Laura2408 said:



			1 - What licence they hold - B 
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle 1500
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle 2240
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 2200
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres- 1600
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer  770

Pony weight 430kg

Is this legal ROG?
		
Click to expand...

You have a HB401/3

Contact IW and have the trailer down plated to 1250 which will leave a max of 480 for the trailer load so 50 to spare with a 430 pony

Cost is likely to be about £50 - you remove plate and send to IW with fee - IW send you new plate - you fit new plate - needs drill and pop rivet gun


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## Laura2408 (5 January 2018)

Fab rOg thank you. Thought it was too tight to be legal!


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## Seasick (18 January 2018)

Hi, I need to replace my tow car after 12 years of faithful service. My current car has a petrol engine, but, despite all the warnings about particulates and moves to discourage diesel cars, it's almost impossible to find a 4wd petrol car with a reasonable towing capability. The only one we have found is the Subaru Forester (petrol auto has 2000kg tow weight). However, the Forester has a tow ball limit of only 80kg, but Ifor Williams tell me my 505 trailer has a nose weight of 97kg.  Presumably then this is not a safe combination, and I need a car with at least 100kg tow ball weight?
Another we are considering is a Kia Sportage, some (diesel) models have a 2,200kg tow weight, which seems a lot for a not particularly big car. 
I have an IW505, and usually tow one 500kg horse, occasionally also a 300kg pony, but it would be nice to have the capability to tow two 500kg horses if required, and as an oldie I have B+E licence. 
This is also going to be an every day car, so needs to be reasonably economical to run. Any other suggestions?


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## ROG (18 January 2018)

Seasick said:



			Hi, I need to replace my tow car after 12 years of faithful service. My current car has a petrol engine, but, despite all the warnings about particulates and moves to discourage diesel cars, it's almost impossible to find a 4wd petrol car with a reasonable towing capability. The only one we have found is the Subaru Forester (petrol auto has 2000kg tow weight). However, the Forester has a tow ball limit of only 80kg, but Ifor Williams tell me my 505 trailer has a nose weight of 97kg.  Presumably then this is not a safe combination, and I need a car with at least 100kg tow ball weight?
Another we are considering is a Kia Sportage, some (diesel) models have a 2,200kg tow weight, which seems a lot for a not particularly big car. 
I have an IW505, and usually tow one 500kg horse, occasionally also a 300kg pony, but it would be nice to have the capability to tow two 500kg horses if required, and as an oldie I have B+E licence. 
This is also going to be an every day car, so needs to be reasonably economical to run. Any other suggestions?
		
Click to expand...

You will get better responses by posting this in the main forum.

My remit is on the law for licences and weights


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## Seasick (18 January 2018)

Thank you Rog for quick response! I was hoping you might have some comments on the nose weight/tow ball weight issue?


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## ROG (18 January 2018)

Seasick said:



			Thank you Rog for quick response! I was hoping you might have some comments on the nose weight/tow ball weight issue?
		
Click to expand...

Not my field


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## Seasick (18 January 2018)

OK thanks.


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## lchloer (28 January 2018)

Afternoon Rog 

Would the below be legal - Mercedes-Benz C Class 2.1 C220 which is a salon.  Thanks 

1. B
 2. 1485KG
 3. 2055Kg
 4. 1600KG
 5. 1600KG - Cheval Libete Tourer single 
 6. 750KG


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## ROG (28 January 2018)

lchloer said:



			Afternoon Rog 

Would the below be legal - Mercedes-Benz C Class 2.1 C220 which is a salon.  Thanks 

1. B
 2. 1485KG
 3. 2055Kg
 4. 1600KG
 5. 1600KG - Cheval Libete Tourer single 
 6. 750KG
		
Click to expand...

NOT LEGAL at the moment but easily fixed.....

Trailer needs to be down plated to 1400 (or anything less than 1445) leaving a max trailer load of 650
Contact Cheval to start the process which usually means you removing the current plate then sending that plate with a smallish payment to Cheval where they then send you the new plate for you to fix on
you need drill and pop rivet gun


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## Gypley (29 January 2018)

Hi ROG,
I have a question that I feel may be daft, but I&#8217;m going to ask anyway. 
Do I need to take in to account the weight of the load in the car when working out what I can tow? 
So if I transport tack in the car, rather than the trailer it would give me slightly more payload in the trailer? So long as I&#8217;m not overloading the car itself. 

I&#8217;ve probably not explained myself very well, but hope you catch my drift!


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## ROG (29 January 2018)

Gypley said:



			Hi ROG,
I have a question that I feel may be daft, but Im going to ask anyway. 
Do I need to take in to account the weight of the load in the car when working out what I can tow? 
So if I transport tack in the car, rather than the trailer it would give me slightly more payload in the trailer? So long as Im not overloading the car itself. 

Ive probably not explained myself very well, but hope you catch my drift!
		
Click to expand...

The car and the trailer each have their own separate weight limits and is it not daft to ask that

There is also a total combined weight limit


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## lchloer (2 February 2018)

Thanks Rog much appreciated can you done plate the trailer to 1300KG so you could tow with the following combination - Only looking to tow a 400kg pony 
1. B
2. 1625KG
3. 2155Kg
4. 1600KG
5. 1600KG - Cheval Libete Tourer single 
6. 750KG


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## ROG (2 February 2018)

lchloer said:



			Thanks Rog much appreciated can you done plate the trailer to 1300KG so you could tow with the following combination - Only looking to tow a 400kg pony 
1. B
2. 1625KG
3. 2155Kg
4. 1600KG
5. 1600KG - Cheval Libete Tourer single 
6. 750KG
		
Click to expand...

Yes you can

Trailer needs to be down plated to 1300 (or anything less than 1345) leaving a max trailer load of 550 at 1300

Contact Cheval to start the process which usually means you removing the current plate then sending that plate with a smallish payment to Cheval where they then send you the new plate for you to fix on
you need drill and pop rivet gun


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## harleyboy (8 February 2018)

B+E Licence
Ifor HB506 unladen 920
2horses & hay water 1160
Total = 2080

Would a vw Tiguan that can tow 2500 be ok for this?


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## ROG (8 February 2018)

harleyboy said:



			B+E Licence
Ifor HB506 unladen 920
2horses & hay water 1160
Total = 2080

Would a vw Tiguan that can tow 2500 be ok for this?
		
Click to expand...

yes


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## pinkypug1 (26 February 2018)

Hi I need a simple answer to a towing question! 
I passed my test in 1997 so only have B licence
I have 3 cars in the family so need to know if any would be legal without doing b+E test
Can I tow a 510kg horse in an ifor 506 with a 2011 Kia shortage 3  1.7?
Can I tow same horse/trailer combo with 2015 Range Rover sport 
Can I tow with 2015 Audi A4 estate 2.0
Is only for short distance up to 20 miles 4/5 times a year


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## pinkypug1 (26 February 2018)

pinkypug1 said:



			Hi I need a simple answer to a towing question! 
I passed my test in 1997 so only have B licence
I have 3 cars in the family so need to know if any would be legal without doing b+E test
Can I tow a 510kg horse in an ifor 506 with a 2011 Kia shortage 3  1.7?
Can I tow same horse/trailer combo with 2015 Range Rover sport 
Can I tow with 2015 Audi A4 estate 2.0
Is only for short distance up to 20 miles 4/5 times a year
		
Click to expand...

Sorry I meant to write 1998


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## ROG (26 February 2018)

pinkypug1 said:



			Hi I need a simple answer to a towing question! 
I passed my test in 1997 so only have B licence
I have 3 cars in the family so need to know if any would be legal without doing b+E test
Can I tow a 510kg horse in an ifor 506 with a 2011 Kia shortage 3  1.7?
Can I tow same horse/trailer combo with 2015 Range Rover sport 
Can I tow with 2015 Audi A4 estate 2.0
Is only for short distance up to 20 miles 4/5 times a year
		
Click to expand...

I need the GVW for each of the vehicles

GVW is the top of the four numbers on the weight plates usually hidden in a door frame or under the bonnet

GVW or max permissible mass is listed on each of the V5 keeper docs


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## pinkypug1 (26 February 2018)

ROG said:



			I need the GVW for each of the vehicles

GVW is the top of the four numbers on the weight plates usually hidden in a door frame or under the bonnet

GVW or max permissible mass is listed on each of the V5 keeper docs
		
Click to expand...

Kia GVW 1940kg
RR 3000kg
Audi 1890kg 

I hope they seem correct


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## ROG (26 February 2018)

pinkypug1 said:



			Kia GVW 1940kg
RR 3000kg
Audi 1890kg 

I hope they seem correct
		
Click to expand...

Look to be ok

HB510 is 2600kg MAM and 920kg empty

Horse is 510kg

Contact IW and down plate from 2600 to 1500 leaving 580 for the trailer load

You can then tow that with the Kia or Audi on a B licence proving the max towing capacity of those is at least 1430kg


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## pinkypug1 (26 February 2018)

ROG said:



			Look to be ok

HB510 is 2600kg MAM and 920kg empty

Horse is 510kg

Contact IW and down plate from 2600 to 1500 leaving 580 for the trailer load

You can then tow that with the Kia or Audi on a B licence proving the max towing capacity of those is at least 1430kg
		
Click to expand...

Many thanks for that. Its the 505 I have so maybe lighter again than the 510. Both the Kia and Audi can tow more than 1430 so looks like Ill be good to tow


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## ROG (26 February 2018)

pinkypug1 said:



			Many thanks for that. It&#8217;s the 505 I have so maybe lighter again than the 510. Both the Kia and Audi can tow more than 1430 so looks like I&#8217;ll be good to tow 

Click to expand...

HB505 = 2340kg and 905 empty

Down plating to 1500 goes like this ....

You call IW
You remove weight plate
You send weight plate and about £50 to IW
IW send you new weight plate
You fit new weight plate

Needs drill and pop rivet gun


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## Nicola89 (6 March 2018)

Hi, i Am hoping someone can help! my cars towing capacity is 1800kg, the trailer weighs 767kg unladen and max gross weight is 1600kg. As its under 3.5 can I tow it with out a trailer licence? Also if a trailer max gross is say 2300kg but the actual trailer with horse weighs less than my cars towing capacity of 1800kg is my car legal to tow once I have a license?thanks


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## ROG (6 March 2018)

Nicola89 said:



			Hi, i Am hoping someone can help! my cars towing capacity is 1800kg, the trailer weighs 767kg unladen and max gross weight is 1600kg. As it&#8217;s under 3.5 can I tow it with out a trailer licence? Also if a trailer max gross is say 2300kg but the actual trailer with horse weighs less than my cars towing capacity of 1800kg is my car legal to tow once I have a license?thanks
		
Click to expand...

No law or rule which states that a trailer plated MAM cannot exceed a vehicles max towing capacity
Example that is legal - 
Tow capacity 1500
Trailer MAM 2000
Trailer empty 800
Max load for trailer 700

What is the GVW of your car ? - need that to answer any Qs for B licence towing


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## Nicola89 (6 March 2018)

Its 2200


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## ROG (6 March 2018)

Nicola89 said:



			Hi, i Am hoping someone can help! my cars towing capacity is 1800kg, the trailer weighs 767kg unladen and max gross weight is 1600kg. As its under 3.5 can I tow it with out a trailer licence?
		
Click to expand...

GVW 2200 = thanks

2200 + 1600 = 3800 so 300 over the 3500 B licence towing limit

GOOD NEWS = you can contact IW and have the trailer down plated from 1600 to 1300 which mean the max load you can put in the trailer is 533kg so I hope you do not have a horse too heavy 

How down plating goes = 
You call IW with all the trailer info
You remove weight plate and send it to IW with about £50
IW send you new plate
You fit new plate
Needs drill and pop rivet gun - most mechanics have them if you need that option


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## Gypley (10 March 2018)

Looking to take my trailer test soon once new car arrives. 
Just wondering if anyone knows if I can use my reversing camera to hitch the trailer in the test? 
Assuming it will be a no as its cheating but worth a try, right?!


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## ROG (11 March 2018)

Gypley said:



			Looking to take my trailer test soon once new car arrives. 
Just wondering if anyone knows if I can use my reversing camera to hitch the trailer in the test? 
Assuming it will be a no as its cheating but worth a try, right?!
		
Click to expand...

Yes you can use it for the test


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## rsm100 (13 March 2018)

Hi Rog. 
Been looking to pull my partners horse, but Ive searched all of yesterday, think Im going cross eyed. 
Anyways, with a limited budge 4K on the vehicle, the trailer its self we dont even know what to look for and may only have 2k ish(might save a bit more if needed).

So I have a B lisence, I have picked a vehicle yet, as I thought I just needed a jeep that could tow a good weight, with research its not so much just that! Im totally confused with weights and what to be looking for!
So is there any vehicle & horse box you could recommend? Our horse is about 600kg. 

I had looked at a Mitsubishi Outlander 2l  07 but prob to heavy and put me over my 3.5t.  

Any help or recommendations is valued as gold to me. 

Many Thanks

Robert.(sorry if this doesnt make much sense or is limited on info)


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## ROG (13 March 2018)

rsm100 said:



			Hi Rog. 
Been looking to pull my partners horse, but I&#8217;ve searched all of yesterday, think I&#8217;m going cross eyed. 
Anyways, with a limited budge 4K on the vehicle, the trailer it&#8217;s self we don&#8217;t even know what to look for and may only have 2k ish(might save a bit more if needed).

So I have a B lisence, I have picked a vehicle yet, as I thought I just needed a jeep that could tow a good weight, with research it&#8217;s not so much just that! I&#8217;m totally confused with weights and what to be looking for!
So is there any vehicle & horse box you could recommend? Our horse is about 600kg. 

I had looked at a Mitsubishi Outlander 2l  07 but prob to heavy and put me over my 3.5t.  

Any help or recommendations is valued as gold to me. 

Many Thanks

Robert.(sorry if this doesn&#8217;t make much sense or is limited on info)
		
Click to expand...

For B licence towing you need to keep within the 3500 limit which is made up of the vehicle GVW added to the trailer plated MAM

Trailers can have their plated MAM reduced by contacting the manufacturer - cost is usually under £50


A lot depends on what type of surface you need to tow on because if only hard solid ground then a normal car will suffice
Example - 
Skoda Octavia (4x4 maybe) which has a GVW of say 2100 with a Bateson Derby trailer at 675 empty where the MAM has been down plated from 1700 to 1400 leaving a max trailer load of 725


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## rsm100 (13 March 2018)

ROG said:



			For B licence towing you need to keep within the 3500 limit which is made up of the vehicle GVW added to the trailer plated MAM

Trailers can have their plated MAM reduced by contacting the manufacturer - cost is usually under £50


A lot depends on what type of surface you need to tow on because if only hard solid ground then a normal car will suffice
Example - 
Skoda Octavia (4x4 maybe) which has a GVW of say 2100 with a Bateson Derby trailer at 675 empty where the MAM has been down plated from 1700 to 1400 leaving a max trailer load of 725
		
Click to expand...

Well I had looked at something like that but Id be a bit scared if we got stuck on grass ha ha. What happens if I find the perfect jeep + trainer... what about like tack and hay and humans? Does this effect the weights?


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## ROG (13 March 2018)

rsm100 said:



			Well I had looked at something like that but I&#8217;d be a bit scared if we got stuck on grass ha ha. What happens if I find the perfect jeep + trainer... what about like tack and hay and humans? Does this effect the weights?
		
Click to expand...

What goes in the vehicle comes under the vehicle GVW and what goes in the trailer comes under the trailer MAM

What is the GVW and towing capacity of the jeep you are looking at ??

What trailer are you considering ?


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## rsm100 (13 March 2018)

ROG said:



			What goes in the vehicle comes under the vehicle GVW and what goes in the trailer comes under the trailer MAM

What is the GVW and towing capacity of the jeep you are looking at ??

What trailer are you considering ?
		
Click to expand...


Im looking at 

Mitsubishi	Outlander 2.0 Di-D	2007	kerb 1609 towing 2200

Unsure of a trailer. Need something obviously light weight and can take a 162. 
Its mostly for going to the odd riding lesson and horse show.


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## ROG (13 March 2018)

rsm100 said:



			I&#8217;m looking at 

Mitsubishi	Outlander 2.0 Di-D	2007	kerb 1609 towing 2200
		
Click to expand...

Need the GVW figure but I think it is likely to be about 2300 so too much


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## rsm100 (13 March 2018)

How would I find a cars GVW before buying it? Sorry I must be annoying the living hell out of you, its just I dont want to be in the wrong side of the law.


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## ROG (13 March 2018)

rsm100 said:



			How would I find a cars GVW before buying it? Sorry I must be annoying the living hell out of you, it&#8217;s just I don&#8217;t want to be in the wrong side of the law.
		
Click to expand...

Try a google search - 2007 Mitsubishi Outlander 2.0 Di-D kg gvw - for example


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## Lego (23 March 2018)

Hi.
Please could you give some guidance on what figures I need to be looking for in a car to tow on B license?

Is it the MAM I need to be looking at? 

Looking at buying a friend's Ifor 403.

Ifor 403
Gross weight 1600kg
Unladen weight 767kg

Horse max 575kg (taped 500kg now, weighbridge 560kg when in full dressage work)

I understand I could probably downplate the trailer a bit if needed? 

Thank in advance!


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## tallyho! (24 March 2018)

Hi ROG, wonder if you can help again... new set up needed. Losing my trusty Patrol 

I've been looking at a new Volvo XC60 D4 AWD Auto 190bhp

1 - BE
2 - Total weight 8-speed auto gearbox 2500kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2505kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity - 2400kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 2340kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 905kg

It just looks too good to be true... will it tow two 15hh horses?


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## ROG (24 March 2018)

tallyho! said:



			Hi ROG, wonder if you can help again... new set up needed. Losing my trusty Patrol 

I've been looking at a new Volvo XC60 D4 AWD Auto 190bhp

1 - BE
2 - Total weight 8-speed auto gearbox 2500kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2505kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity - 2400kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 2340kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 905kg

It just looks too good to be true... will it tow two 15hh horses?
		
Click to expand...

Max load for trailer = 1435kg


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## ROG (24 March 2018)

Lego said:



			Hi.
Please could you give some guidance on what figures I need to be looking for in a car to tow on B license?

Is it the MAM I need to be looking at? 

Looking at buying a friend's Ifor 403.

Ifor 403
Gross weight 1600kg
Unladen weight 767kg

Horse max 575kg (taped 500kg now, weighbridge 560kg when in full dressage work)

I understand I could probably downplate the trailer a bit if needed? 

Thank in advance!
		
Click to expand...

If the trailer was down plated to 1400 then the max GVW for the towing vehicle will be 2100

You could get away with down plating the trailer to 1350 but that gets a bit tight


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## tallyho! (24 March 2018)

ROG said:



			Max load for trailer = 1435kg
		
Click to expand...

Thank you!


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## TRS (5 April 2018)

Seasick said:



			Hi, I need to replace my tow car after 12 years of faithful service. My current car has a petrol engine, but, despite all the warnings about particulates and moves to discourage diesel cars, it's almost impossible to find a 4wd petrol car with a reasonable towing capability. The only one we have found is the Subaru Forester (petrol auto has 2000kg tow weight). However, the Forester has a tow ball limit of only 80kg, but Ifor Williams tell me my 505 trailer has a nose weight of 97kg.  Presumably then this is not a safe combination, and I need a car with at least 100kg tow ball weight?
Another we are considering is a Kia Sportage, some (diesel) models have a 2,200kg tow weight, which seems a lot for a not particularly big car. 
I have an IW505, and usually tow one 500kg horse, occasionally also a 300kg pony, but it would be nice to have the capability to tow two 500kg horses if required, and as an oldie I have B+E licence. 
This is also going to be an every day car, so needs to be reasonably economical to run. Any other suggestions?
		
Click to expand...



Was there ever a reply to this query? I have searched the main forum and can't seem to find anything. If there was a response, could you please kindly share a link to where it is posted, as I have a similar query. Many thanks


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## Laura2408 (5 April 2018)

Hi ROG.
Is there a way to downplate a trailer without going through Ifor Williams (who&#8217;s customer service is shocking!)

Can I just have a new plate printed up myself with the new weight and would this be legal?


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## ROG (5 April 2018)

Laura2408 said:



			Hi ROG.
Is there a way to downplate a trailer without going through Ifor Williams (whos customer service is shocking!)

Can I just have a new plate printed up myself with the new weight and would this be legal?
		
Click to expand...

Not legal unless done through the manufacturer of the trailer as it has to be put on the manufacturers database


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## Laura2408 (5 April 2018)

Ah looks like I am not able to downplate mine as ifor are being a nightmare about it! 
B+E test it is for me


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## ROG (5 April 2018)

Laura2408 said:



			Ah looks like I am not able to downplate mine as ifor are being a nightmare about it! 
B+E test it is for me 

Click to expand...

ODD - nobody else seems to have an issue - what seems to be the problem?


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## Laura2408 (5 April 2018)

The trailer was stolen and recovered in 2013 but as a result has has had a replacement VIN plate issued by Ifor as the trailer wasn&#8217;t able to be identified as the serial numbers had been rubbed off. It has a different vin number to the one it was registered with as the original serial could not be found. 

It&#8217;s legal and registered but due to this they won&#8217;t downplate as they can not be sure of the year in which it was manufactured or who owned it while it was stolen. 

Seems a bit petty but I suppose there isn&#8217;t much I can do about it!


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## ROG (5 April 2018)

Laura2408 said:



			The trailer was stolen and recovered in 2013 but as a result has has had a replacement VIN plate issued by Ifor as the trailer wasn&#8217;t able to be identified as the serial numbers had been rubbed off. It has a different vin number to the one it was registered with as the original serial could not be found. 

It&#8217;s legal and registered but due to this they won&#8217;t downplate as they can not be sure of the year in which it was manufactured or who owned it while it was stolen. 

Seems a bit petty but I suppose there isn&#8217;t much I can do about it!
		
Click to expand...

AH - I see - yes that would be an issue

Unlucky to have that particular trailer and need it down plating !!!!!


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## Laura2408 (5 April 2018)

Very! I bought it legitimately and had no idea it would be an issue as I presumed that as a new plate had been issued it wouldn&#8217;t be a problem. Should have checked before hand, ifor won&#8217;t even entertain it hence wondering if I can just have a plate made up myself as I&#8217;m sure nobody would check!


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## ROG (5 April 2018)

Laura2408 said:



			Very! I bought it legitimately and had no idea it would be an issue as I presumed that as a new plate had been issued it wouldn&#8217;t be a problem. Should have checked before hand, ifor won&#8217;t even entertain it hence wondering if I can just have a plate made up myself as I&#8217;m sure nobody would check!
		
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It will not be legal and will invalidate any insurance 
If doing it to conform to B licence towing then that will be - driving not in accordance with the licence - which can result in no insurance and seizure of the vehicle

NOT WORTH THE RISK OF 6 POINTS ETC ETC ETC


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## Gypley (7 April 2018)

Could someone please let me know the laws for towing when you haven&#8217;t yet passed your B+E test but will be towing whilst accompanied by someone that has? 
How many years do they need to have held their B+E ? And I assume the trailer will need L plates. 

Have looked online but can&#8217;t seem to find anything that states the law in these circumstances 
Thanks


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## ROG (8 April 2018)

Gypley said:



			Could someone please let me know the laws for towing when you havent yet passed your B+E test but will be towing whilst accompanied by someone that has? 
How many years do they need to have held their B+E ? And I assume the trailer will need L plates. 

Have looked online but cant seem to find anything that states the law in these circumstances 
Thanks 

Click to expand...

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


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## whoshelen (14 April 2018)

Please could you check one for me ROG?


I would need -
1 - B licence
2 - 1716kg
3 - 2230kg
4 - 2100kg
5 - 1600
6 - 767kg
Many thanks


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## ROG (14 April 2018)

whoshelen said:



			Please could you check one for me ROG?


I would need -
1 - B licence
2 - 1716kg
3 - 2230kg
4 - 2100kg
5 - 1600
6 - 767kg
Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

Trailer would need down plating from 1600 to 1270 to conform to B licence towing laws
At 1270 that would leave a max of 503 which can be loaded into the trailer


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## TRS (15 April 2018)

Hi

Details requested below:

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE   - Passed my test in 1995, so BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle &#8211; Kerb weight is 1653 kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle &#8211; can&#8217;t find this and not sure how to work it out. Vehicle is a Honda CR-V 2.2L CTDI
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 2,000kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres  Ifor Williams HB506 with Gross Weight of 2600kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer " = Ifor Williams HB506 with Unladen Weight of 920kg


I plan to tow one 470kgs horse


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## ROG (16 April 2018)

TRS said:



			Hi

Details requested below:

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE   - Passed my test in 1995, so BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle &#8211; Kerb weight is 1653 kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle &#8211; can&#8217;t find this and not sure how to work it out. Vehicle is a Honda CR-V 2.2L CTDI
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle 2,000kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres  Ifor Williams HB506 with Gross Weight of 2600kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer " = Ifor Williams HB506 with Unladen Weight of 920kg


I plan to tow one 470kgs horse
		
Click to expand...

Max you can load into the trailer is 1080kg

With a max trailer load of 1080 then all the rest is legal on a B+E


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## Ballerina (18 April 2018)

Hi, can I practise towing on my own on the roads without an animal in the back ?


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## tda (18 April 2018)

Just a quickie - grease  on the tow ball or not?


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## ROG (18 April 2018)

tda said:



			Just a quickie - grease  on the tow ball or not?
		
Click to expand...

Yes but very little - just enough to reduce friction


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## Batgirl (18 April 2018)

Hi ROG, selfish one/trying to make sure people are safe one!
I am selling my trailer it is 1600 MAM, are there vehicles that would be suitable for a B set up without down plating the trailer? (I am anticipating questions as I have a B+E so not an issue for me!)


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## ROG (18 April 2018)

Batgirl said:



			Hi ROG, selfish one/trying to make sure people are safe one!
I am selling my trailer it is 1600 MAM, are there vehicles that would be suitable for a B set up without down plating the trailer? (I am anticipating questions as I have a B+E so not an issue for me!)
		
Click to expand...

Yes - many of them - max GVW 1900kg

Just explain that for about £50 and a little work to remove and fix plate that the process to down plate is dead easy

I would have IW tel number on a piece of paper along with the process


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## whoshelen (18 April 2018)

ROG said:



			Trailer would need down plating from 1600 to 1270 to conform to B licence towing laws
At 1270 that would leave a max of 503 which can be loaded into the trailer
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for this.. Ifor Williams only offer 1200kg or 1300kg is there any other way of getting a downplate as it's a little tight?


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## ROG (18 April 2018)

whoshelen said:



			Thanks for this.. Ifor Williams only offer 1200kg or 1300kg is there any other way of getting a downplate as it's a little tight?
		
Click to expand...

No other way


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## whoshelen (18 April 2018)

Thank you for all of your help


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## Batgirl (19 April 2018)

ROG said:



			Yes - many of them - max GVW 1900kg

Just explain that for about £50 and a little work to remove and fix plate that the process to down plate is dead easy

I would have IW tel number on a piece of paper along with the process
		
Click to expand...

Amazing thanks! I just don't want someone saying 'can I tow it with X car with my B license' without being able to tell them the facts and figures!

Much appreciated.


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## With Ponies (21 April 2018)

Can I transport a 11hh pony in an open trailer?


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## With Ponies (21 April 2018)

Lovely horses


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## ROG (21 April 2018)

With Ponies said:



			Can I transport a 11hh pony in an open trailer?
		
Click to expand...

I have no idea - perhaps asking on the main forum might get some answers


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## Blind old bat (24 April 2018)

Hi, I'm hoping to swap my little 3.5 box for a 4 x 4 / trailer combo and I'm completely confused and would be very grateful for some enlightenment!  I haven't bought anything yet but I'm looking at a Subaru Forester 2l TD 2013 and I'd want to pull an ifor 403 with a horse weighing about 550kg. So, doing my best with your numbers:
1. B & E I think - full granddad rights as I'm ancient.
2 1540 minimum kerb weight - is that the right thing?
3. I don't know where I'd find this as I don't own the car!
4. 2000 kg
5. The gross weight is 1600, is that the right thing?
6. 767 kg

Sorry to be so vague but I'm a bit clueless!


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## ROG (24 April 2018)

Blind old bat said:



			Hi, I'm hoping to swap my little 3.5 box for a 4 x 4 / trailer combo and I'm completely confused and would be very grateful for some enlightenment!  I haven't bought anything yet but I'm looking at a Subaru Forester 2l TD 2013 and I'd want to pull an ifor 403 with a horse weighing about 550kg. So, doing my best with your numbers:
1. B & E I think - full granddad rights as I'm ancient.
2 1540 minimum kerb weight - is that the right thing?
3. I don't know where I'd find this as I don't own the car!
4. 2000 kg
5. The gross weight is 1600, is that the right thing?
6. 767 kg

Sorry to be so vague but I'm a bit clueless!
		
Click to expand...

Simple answer = you can load a max of 833kg into the trailer


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## Blind old bat (24 April 2018)

ROG said:



			Simple answer = you can load a max of 833kg into the trailer
		
Click to expand...

Thank you very much!


----------



## ROG (24 April 2018)

Blind old bat said:



			Thank you very much!
		
Click to expand...

Welcome

I reckon the GVW of the Subaru is just under 2000 so if you need it to conform to B licence towing laws for other drivers then you just need to down plate the trailer from 1600 to 1500


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## XxCoriexX (24 April 2018)

So I am having a car dilemma, I currently tow my 600kg mare in my ifor 511 with my Tiguan escape which has a towing capacity of 2500kg. However my car is getting old and is starting to fail me. My dad has made me the offer of having his Tiguan which is the r line blue tech tdi 2014 model but the towing capacity is only 2200kg. My question is - would it be legal and safe and would you do it?


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## ROG (25 April 2018)

XxCoriexX said:



			So I am having a car dilemma, I currently tow my 600kg mare in my ifor 511 with my Tiguan escape which has a towing capacity of 2500kg. However my car is getting old and is starting to fail me. My dad has made me the offer of having his Tiguan which is the r line blue tech tdi 2014 model but the towing capacity is only 2200kg. My question is - would it be legal and safe and would you do it?
		
Click to expand...

With a B+E licence you can load a max of 1200 into the trailer


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## alicepalice (25 April 2018)

Hi there

I am looking at purchasing a 2015 Skoda Octavia Scout 4x4 with the initial aim of towing one horse(545kg), two if this is at all possible. If you could tell me how to best achieve both scenarios that would be massively helpful.

1 - B but can aim to get BE
2 - 1451 (kerb weight)
3 - 2096kg
4 - 650kg
5 - TBC
6 - TBC


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## ROG (26 April 2018)

alicepalice said:



			Hi there

I am looking at purchasing a 2015 Skoda Octavia Scout 4x4 with the initial aim of towing one horse(545kg), two if this is at all possible. If you could tell me how to best achieve both scenarios that would be massively helpful.

1 - B but can aim to get BE
2 - 1451 (kerb weight)
3 - 2096kg
4 - 650kg
5 - TBC
6 - TBC
		
Click to expand...

4 - 1800kg braked is more likely than 650kg unbraked

B licence = 
Need a trailer plated at or down plated to 1400 with an empty weight of 800 or less so perhaps HB401/3 or Bateson Derby or cheval liberte single etc etc which will leave a trailer load of 600+

B+E licence = 
To carry two you will need a trailer that is perhaps 900 empty with a plated weight of 1800 or more then it can be loaded with a max weight of 900 but as your horse is 545 then that only leaves 355 for a very small pony
To carry two horses at 550 each then you need a trailer that is perhaps 900 empty with a plated weight (MAM) of at least 2000 along with a vehicle that has at least a 2000 towing capacity


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## Gem19822002 (26 April 2018)

Hi I was wondering if anyone could help.

I'm trying to work out if I can tow legally and safely on just a B license, with a Ford maverick 2.0 xlt with a tow weight of 1500, not sure about its gross max weight I think it may be 1490 ish and was thinking a light weight single trailer as only want to tow one 16'2 600kg ish horse.

Have tried to ring dvla, dvsa and Ford but none of them seem to know and pass me on to the others  

Many thanks


----------



## ROG (26 April 2018)

Gem19822002 said:



			Hi I was wondering if anyone could help.

I'm trying to work out if I can tow legally and safely on just a B license, with a Ford maverick 2.0 xlt with a tow weight of 1500, not sure about its gross max weight I think it may be 1490 ish and was thinking a light weight single trailer as only want to tow one 16'2 600kg ish horse.

Have tried to ring dvla, dvsa and Ford but none of them seem to know and pass me on to the others  

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

Nip out to the car and find the weight plate which has 4 numbers on it - I need the top 2 numbers (usually hidden under bonnet or in a door frame)

OR 

I need the max permissible mass and max tow weight on the DVLA V5 keepers doc


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## Gem19822002 (26 April 2018)

On the v5 the only figure stated is mass in service which is 1540, the max. Permissible mass is just above this but doesn't have a figure next to it.

It also doesn't state any of the technical permissible maximum towable mass of the trailer figures either.

The actual vehicle is currently in the garage just having a few things fixed to get it through an mot so can't look there either. 

I rang Ford to try get these figures but they couldn't help.


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## ROG (26 April 2018)

Gem19822002 said:



			On the v5 the only figure stated is mass in service which is 1540, the max. Permissible mass is just above this but doesn't have a figure next to it.

It also doesn't state any of the technical permissible maximum towable mass of the trailer figures either.

The actual vehicle is currently in the garage just having a few things fixed to get it through an mot so can't look there either. 

I rang Ford to try get these figures but they couldn't help.
		
Click to expand...

What does it state on the vehicle weight plate ???? - top two figures of the 4 listed please


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## Gem19822002 (26 April 2018)

The car is in a garage at the moment getting fixed so can't actually go out and look. I can pop over to the garage tomorrow and get the figures then.


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## ROG (26 April 2018)

Gem19822002 said:



			The car is in a garage at the moment getting fixed so can't actually go out and look. I can pop over to the garage tomorrow and get the figures then.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst it is there ask the garage to find the plate as they have probably spotted it already - in fact a phone call will get you the figures if they read them off to you


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## Gem19822002 (27 April 2018)

The top two figures on the vehicle weight plate are.

1965kg
3465kg

Many thanks


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## ROG (27 April 2018)

FORD MAVERICK

I am going to have a GUESS that the top two numbers on the plate will be 2000 (GVW) and 3500 (GTW) meaning it has a max tow limit of 1500

IF that is the case then it should be relatively easy to tow a 600 horse in a lightweight trailer on a B licence

Using an IW HB401/3 (as an example) down plated from 1600 to 1500 and it being 780 empty will leave 720 for the trailer load

AH - just seen your reply posted


Gem19822002 said:



			The top two figures on the vehicle weight plate are.

1965kg
3465kg

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

Not a bad GUESS on my part and my answer remains the same


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## Gem19822002 (27 April 2018)

Great thank you, so can go ahead at start looking for a light weight trailer. 

So grateful for your help having been pulling my hair out trying to actually get the right help.


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## ROG (27 April 2018)

Gem19822002 said:



			Great thank you, so can go ahead at start looking for a light weight trailer. 

So grateful for your help having been pulling my hair out trying to actually get the right help.
		
Click to expand...

That is why I am here = smiley face

The procedure for down plating a trailer is as follows - 

You contact the manufacturer with all the trailer details including the serial number
You remove/drill out the original plate
You send plate plus money (usually between £10 and £50) to the manufacturer
Manufacturer sends you new plate
You fit new plate by using a pop rivet gun


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## PapaverFollis (1 May 2018)

Hello. Quick question. With a Landrover Discovery II and an Ifor 511 am I going to be too heavy to tow on a normal car license even if the trailer is empty? I think the car weighs up to about 2220kg "kerb weight" and the trailer is 1000kg unladen...

I know I definitely can't tow the horse but it would be useful if I could tow the empty trailer at this juncture.

Thanks for any light that can be shed!


----------



## ROG (1 May 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			Hello. Quick question. With a Landrover Discovery II and an Ifor 511 am I going to be too heavy to tow on a normal car license even if the trailer is empty? I think the car weighs up to about 2220kg "kerb weight" and the trailer is 1000kg unladen...

I know I definitely can't tow the horse but it would be useful if I could tow the empty trailer at this juncture.

Thanks for any light that can be shed!
		
Click to expand...

Licences go on the plated weights not the actual weights which your are referring to 

Car plated GVW + Trailer plated MAM cannot total more than 3500 for B licence towing


----------



## PapaverFollis (1 May 2018)

ROG said:



			Licences go on the plated weights not the actual weights which your are referring to 

Car plated GVW + Trailer plated MAM cannot total more than 3500 for B licence towing
		
Click to expand...

And the plated weights are the same as maximum weights? So it doesn't matter that the trailer is unloaded?


----------



## ROG (2 May 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			And the plated weights are the same as maximum weights? So it doesn't matter that the trailer is unloaded?
		
Click to expand...

Correct on both


----------



## Bob notacob (3 May 2018)

ROG said:



			That is why I am here = smiley face

The procedure for down plating a trailer is as follows - 

You contact the manufacturer with all the trailer details including the serial number
You remove/drill out the original plate
You send plate plus money (usually between £10 and £50) to the manufacturer
Manufacturer sends you new plate
You fit new plate by using a pop rivet gun
		
Click to expand...

Alternatively you simply have a plate made up with the lower weights you want ,(ebay) rivet it on ,job done. This is entirely legal . These "plates" are merely a statement of the restrictions within which the trailer is to be operated. If they are lower than those of the manufacturer ,this will go unchallenged.


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## ROG (3 May 2018)

Bob notacob said:



			Alternatively you simply have a plate made up with the lower weights you want ,(ebay) rivet it on ,job done. This is entirely legal . These "plates" are merely a statement of the restrictions within which the trailer is to be operated. If they are lower than those of the manufacturer ,this will go unchallenged.
		
Click to expand...

Totally ILLEGAL to do that in the EU/UK


----------



## PapaverFollis (3 May 2018)

ROG said:



			Correct on both
		
Click to expand...

Thank you! Scuppers my little plan but better figuring that out now!


----------



## friesianfan69 (3 May 2018)

I have messaged you but cant see it in my sent box. Did you recieve it?


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## ROG (3 May 2018)

friesianfan69 said:



			I have messaged you but cant see it in my sent box. Did you recieve it?
		
Click to expand...

I have PMs switched off as I was getting too many.

I can make errors like every other human so replying on a public forum leaves me open to correction if I get something wrong


----------



## friesianfan69 (3 May 2018)

I have an xtrial 4x4 and have a B licence. So was thinking hopefully a lighter single trailer so as to not have to do a trailer test.
Is that possible?


----------



## friesianfan69 (3 May 2018)

friesianfan69 said:



			I have an xtrial 4x4 and have a B licence. So was thinking hopefully a lighter single trailer so as to not have to do a trailer test.
Is that possible?
		
Click to expand...

my car braked towing capacity is 2000kg
Trailer weight would be 767kg ( if ifor williams 401/ 403
Pony 443kg
Car weight 1525 kg


----------



## ROG (3 May 2018)

friesianfan69 said:



			I have an xtrial 4x4 and have a B licence. So was thinking hopefully a lighter single trailer so as to not have to do a trailer test.
Is that possible?

my car braked towing capacity is 2000kg
Trailer weight would be 767kg ( if ifor williams 401/ 403
Pony 443kg
Car weight 1525 kg
		
Click to expand...

To give a definitive answer I need -
GVW of Xtrail which is Max permissible mass on V5 doc or top of the 4 numbers on the weight plate usually hidden uner bonnet or in a door frame

You WILL have to contact IW and have the trailer down plated but to what I cannot say without knowing the Xtrail GVW


----------



## friesianfan69 (3 May 2018)

Not sure if correct numbers but Top 4 I can see are passenger  front x rear ?
2.0 2.0
29  29
What is GVW?


----------



## ROG (3 May 2018)

friesianfan69 said:



			Not sure if correct numbers but Top 4 I can see are passenger  front x rear ?
2.0 2.0
29  29
What is GVW?
		
Click to expand...

GVW = Gross Vehicle Weight = the max it can legally be when fully loaded

GVW & MAM mean the same thing

MAM is the trailers GVW

Total MAM for B licence towing is 3500 so if GVW is say 2200 then max trailer MAM can be 1300

Have you got the DVLA V5 keepers doc handy to look up the max permissible mass ????

Or is the vehicle handy to look at the weight plate ?

Weight plate will read something like this - 
2200
4200
1150
1150


----------



## friesianfan69 (3 May 2018)

No I&#8217;ve not had it back yet as only bought it a week ago. I&#8217;ll check when I get home shortly


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## ROG (3 May 2018)

The procedure for down plating a trailer is as follows - 

You contact the manufacturer (IW TEL 01490 412626) with all the trailer details including the serial number
You remove/drill out the original plate
You send plate plus money (usually between £10 and £50) to the manufacturer (IW typically charge about £50)
Manufacturer sends you new plate
You fit new plate by using a pop rivet gun


----------



## gems122 (4 May 2018)

Hello,

i have used this thread numerous times so thank you for all the information you have provided, i have just passed my B+E test so that i could tow a larger volume, so just needed to confirm that i am above board and legal as i am currently looking for a trailer and to see if i am limited in anyway......

1 -BE
2 - 1685
3 - 2350
4 - 1800 max towing weight
5 - 2000
5 - 850

to carry a 360kg pony and a 600kg horse

many thanks

Gemma


----------



## ROG (4 May 2018)

gems122 said:



			Hello,

i have used this thread numerous times so thank you for all the information you have provided, i have just passed my B+E test so that i could tow a larger volume, so just needed to confirm that i am above board and legal as i am currently looking for a trailer and to see if i am limited in anyway......

1 -BE
2 - 1685
3 - 2350
4 - 1800 max towing weight
5 - 2000
5 - 850

to carry a 360kg pony and a 600kg horse

many thanks

Gemma
		
Click to expand...

With that trailer at 2000 MAM and 850 empty you can load a max of 950 into the trailer as you are limited by the 1800 max tow limit

Not enough to load both 

You are probably going to need a car with a tow limit of 2000+


----------



## gems122 (4 May 2018)

thank you, is it bad for your vehicle if you have a max of 1800 and tow 1800 as i have only just bought it !

i am taking a guess at their weights at the moment so need to have them weighed, if i can only carry one at a time it means i dont have to limit my options and go for any trailer that i wanted .

thank you for your quick response


----------



## ROG (4 May 2018)

gems122 said:



			thank you, is it bad for your vehicle if you have a max of 1800 and tow 1800 as i have only just bought it !

i am taking a guess at their weights at the moment so need to have them weighed, if i can only carry one at a time it means i dont have to limit my options and go for any trailer that i wanted .

thank you for your quick response
		
Click to expand...

Vehicle tow limits are designed to be used at their max in normal towing situations


----------



## gems122 (4 May 2018)

ROG said:



			Vehicle tow limits are designed to be used at their max in normal towing situations
		
Click to expand...

that's perfect thank you


----------



## friesianfan69 (10 May 2018)

Top 4 numbers are 2050
Sorry only just found them


----------



## ROG (10 May 2018)

friesianfan69 said:



			my car braked towing capacity is 2000kg
Trailer weight would be 767kg ( if ifor williams 401/ 403
Pony 443kg
Car weight 1525 kg
		
Click to expand...




friesianfan69 said:



			Top 4 numbers are 2050
Sorry only just found them
		
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2050 GVW means a 401/3 trailer needs to be down plated to 1450 but 1400 will also be ok


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## friesianfan69 (10 May 2018)

Is that inc tack and Haynet etc?


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## ROG (11 May 2018)

friesianfan69 said:



			Is that inc tack and Haynet etc?
		
Click to expand...

At 1400 you can load 633kg into the trailer


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## Rachellc (11 May 2018)

Hi all

Thanks in advance for providing some guidance as to whether my vehicle will tow. I suspect it will NOT be legal to tow, but I am not clued up on towing, so I wanted to rule it out just in case. Also, I am not clear what some of the specifications in the log book relate to and I cannot find any information in the car itself.

Key points: 
- Looking to tow 1 horse (16.2 hh)
- Vehicle is Seat Alhambra 2.0 diesel SE Lux 150 Dsg (admittedly we bought it to be a baby bus rather than towing vehicle!)
- As trailer would be hired, there are a couple of options: Option A = HB403, option B = HB506, option C = HB511 (likely A or B)

1. Licence B
2. 1843 kg (described in log book as 'weight in running order with driver'??)
3. 2540 kg (described in log book as MAW??)
4. I'm not clear what this is?? 

Various other items specified in log book, e.g. MAW front axle = 1280 kg, MAW rear axle = 1310 kg, max trailer weight without brakes = 750 kg, weight of trailer with brakes gradient 80% = 2400 kg, weight of trailer with brakes gradients up to 12% = 2,200 kg.

5. Option A = 1600 / option B = 2600 / option C = 2700 kg
6. Option A = 767 / option B = 920 / option C = 1000 kg

Gut feeling is this is inadequate to tow??! But any guidance appreciated, thank you!!


----------



## ROG (11 May 2018)

Rachellc said:



			Hi all

Thanks in advance for providing some guidance as to whether my vehicle will tow. I suspect it will NOT be legal to tow, but I am not clued up on towing, so I wanted to rule it out just in case. Also, I am not clear what some of the specifications in the log book relate to and I cannot find any information in the car itself.

Key points: 
- Looking to tow 1 horse (16.2 hh)
- Vehicle is Seat Alhambra 2.0 diesel SE Lux 150 Dsg (admittedly we bought it to be a baby bus rather than towing vehicle!)
- As trailer would be hired, there are a couple of options: Option A = HB403, option B = HB506, option C = HB511 (likely A or B)

1. Licence B
2. 1843 kg (described in log book as 'weight in running order with driver'??)
3. 2540 kg (described in log book as MAW??)
4. I'm not clear what this is?? 

Various other items specified in log book, e.g. MAW front axle = 1280 kg, MAW rear axle = 1310 kg, max trailer weight without brakes = 750 kg, weight of trailer with brakes gradient 80% = 2400 kg, weight of trailer with brakes gradients up to 12% = 2,200 kg.

5. Option A = 1600 / option B = 2600 / option C = 2700 kg
6. Option A = 767 / option B = 920 / option C = 1000 kg

Gut feeling is this is inadequate to tow??! But any guidance appreciated, thank you!!
		
Click to expand...

2540 GVW is going to mean B+E licence for towing a horse trailer

Hiring a trailer is also going to mean B+E in 95% of cases as the trailer cannot be down plated to fit with B towing laws

With a B+E licence the maximum actual weight which can be towed with that vehicle is 2400kg


----------



## Rachellc (11 May 2018)

Hi ROG, 

Thanks a lot for your very quick guidance. Can I just check I understand you correctly: 

1. I would need to pass my B+E test, then 
2. I could likely to be able to use any of the trailer options above, however could only tow 1 horse. Would not have the towing capacity to tow 2 horses (and anyway, I would only ever need to tow 1 horse). 

I hope I understand you correctly?? Many thanks!!


----------



## ROG (11 May 2018)

Rachellc said:



			Hi ROG, 

Thanks a lot for your very quick guidance. Can I just check I understand you correctly: 

1. I would need to pass my B+E test, then 
2. I could likely to be able to use any of the trailer options above, however could only tow 1 horse. Would not have the towing capacity to tow 2 horses (and anyway, I would only ever need to tow 1 horse). 

I hope I understand you correctly?? Many thanks!!
		
Click to expand...

1 = yes
2 = easily tow 2 horses with a 2400 towing capacity ..... trailer 1000 + horse 500 + horse 500 = 2000 with 400 spare


----------



## Rachellc (11 May 2018)

Ah! I was being cautious and considering 700 kg per horse.... 

Thank you for your guidance and expertise, much appreciated


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## friesianfan69 (17 May 2018)

ROG said:



			2050 GVW means a 401/3 trailer needs to be down plated to 1450 but 1400 will also be ok
		
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Ive been offered a Requisite 200 c which is 600kg unladen
1600 gross, Would i still need to down plate it?
If so do you know who i need to approach? Robinsons or Cheval Liberte?


----------



## ROG (17 May 2018)

friesianfan69 said:



			Ive been offered a Requisite 200 c which is 600kg unladen
1600 gross, Would i still need to down plate it?
If so do you know who i need to approach? Robinsons or Cheval Liberte?
		
Click to expand...

Yes it needs down plating to 1450 or less

Seems as thought it is made by Robinsons = By email To: Customer Services (cs@robinsonsequestrian.com) 0344 245 9273
I called the number and they have not dealt with trailers for years and cannot down plate as they do not have the records to do it
you need another trailer

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...10!-Bateson!-Robinsons-Requisite-200-URGENT!&


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## friesianfan69 (17 May 2018)

ROG said:



			Yes it needs down plating to 1450 or less

Seems as thought it is made by Robinsons = By email To: Customer Services (cs@robinsonsequestrian.com) 0344 245 9273
I called the number and they have not dealt with trailers for years and cannot down plate as they do not have the records to do it
you need another trailer

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...10!-Bateson!-Robinsons-Requisite-200-URGENT!&

Click to expand...

I spoke to Robinsons today as i knew they longer sold trailers, they gave me Cheval Liberte number as they are made same spec etc along side. Cheval said they can down plate for me


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## ROG (17 May 2018)

friesianfan69 said:



			I spoke to Robinsons today as i knew they longer sold trailers, they gave me Cheval Liberte number as they are made same spec etc along side. Cheval said they can down plate for me
		
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Well that is good news and one bit of info I shall retain for the future - thank you


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## friesianfan69 (18 May 2018)

ROG said:



			Well that is good news and one bit of info I shall retain for the future - thank you
		
Click to expand...

Yes hes getting back to me today to let me know for definate, ill let you know.
Thankyou for your help


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## ROG (18 May 2018)

friesianfan69 said:



			Yes hes getting back to me today to let me know for definate, ill let you know.
Thankyou for your help
		
Click to expand...

I must admit to never knowing anyone but the manufacturer being able to down plate but I suppose if another company have taken over the trailer section then it should be possible


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## Elf On A Shelf (20 May 2018)

ROG would this set up be ok: Kia Sorento, ifor 505 and a Shetland pony on a straight B licence?


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## ROG (20 May 2018)

EKW said:



			ROG would this set up be ok: Kia Sorento, ifor 505 and a Shetland pony on a straight B licence?
		
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Need to know vehicle GVW 

Trailer MAM original is 2340 and 905 empty so that is deffo going to need down plating by IW but to what I do not know until I get vehicle GVW

V5 keepers doc has GVW listed as max permissible mass or is the top of the 4 numbers on the weight plate which is usually hidden in door frame or under bonnet


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## ROG (20 May 2018)

I just looked at the Sorento GVW online and it is between 2510 and 2600+ so this set up is a no go from the outset for B licence towing

You need a vehicle with a lower GVW


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## ROG (20 May 2018)

ROG said:



			I just looked at the Sorento GVW online and it is between 2510 and 2600+ so this set up is a no go from the outset for B licence towing

You need a vehicle with a lower GVW
		
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I suppose if you got a trailer such as the Bateson Derby which weighs 675 empty and had the MAM down plated to 990 and had a shetland pony weighing a max of 315 then that would be legal with a 2510 GVW vehicle and a B licence


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## friesianfan69 (29 May 2018)

Been down plaited by cheval to 1400kg, Cheval were manufacturors of the Robinsons requisite.


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## ROG (29 May 2018)

friesianfan69 said:



			Been down plaited by cheval to 1400kg, Cheval were manufacturors of the Robinsons requisite.
		
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Brilliant !

Can you say how much it was to do it ?


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## friesianfan69 (29 May 2018)

ROG said:



			Brilliant !

Can you say how much it was to do it ?
		
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It was £25


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## ROG (29 May 2018)

friesianfan69 said:



			It was £25
		
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Thank you

IW = £50 ish
Bateson = £10 ish
Cheval = £25


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## tallyho! (31 May 2018)

Wonder why IW charge such a premium...


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## cobsarefab (10 June 2018)

Hi please could someone tell me if it would it be legal to tie using this set up on a b licence.  A Mitsubishi asx gwvr 1870kg towing a single horse cheval liberte trailer with a 500kg cob inside? 
Got a picture of the information because not sure which you need





 thank you


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## ROG (10 June 2018)

cobsarefab said:



			Hi please could someone tell me if it would it be legal to tie using this set up on a b licence.  A Mitsubishi asx gwvr 1870kg towing a single horse cheval liberte trailer with a 500kg cob inside? 
Got a picture of the information because not sure which you need





 thank you
		
Click to expand...

1400kg MAM for trailer
1870 GVW for vehicle
Total = 3270 so under the 3500 limit for B towing 

Trailer is about 650 empty and horse is 500 so 1150+ total
As long as vehicle can tow 1200 or more then ok

Looks legal to me for B towing


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## cobsarefab (10 June 2018)

Thanks ROG


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## Ellzbellz97 (12 June 2018)

charliejet said:



			Thank you for your time and for the quick reply  

Just thought I would double check with someone else, although I researched this at length before buying.
For anyone is interested I have a Ford Mondeo and an Ifor Williams 403 which had the plate downrated by Ifor Williams.  My little mare weighs 490kg so we are well within the weights.

Not all Mondeos are the same weights, it took me a while to find a suitable one but it tows the single trailer very well.  My horse travels brilliantly in her 403 as well.
		
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What Mondeo do you have?


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## Amy_08 (13 June 2018)

Hi Rog 

Does this work its a BMW X3 3.0 carrying one horse in an Ifor 505:

1 B+E
2 kerb weight vehicle 1805kg
3 2280kg
4 2000kg
5 Plated mam of trailer 1905kg 
6 Unladen weight trailer 905kg


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## ROG (14 June 2018)

Amy_08 said:



			Hi Rog 

Does this work it&#8217;s a BMW X3 3.0 carrying one horse in an Ifor 505:

1 B+E
2 kerb weight vehicle 1805kg
3 2280kg
4 2000kg
5 Plated mam of trailer 1905kg 
6 Unladen weight trailer 905kg
		
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You can legally load 1000kg into the trailer

HB505 is usually 2340kg so it must have been down plated to 1905kg at some point but it beats me as to why !?


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## Amy_08 (14 June 2018)

I think Ive got the mam wrong!


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## ROG (14 June 2018)

Amy_08 said:



			I think I&#8217;ve got the mam wrong!
		
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If it is 2340 then you can load 1095 into the trailer because 905+1095=2000 towing limit


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## Amy_08 (14 June 2018)

Thanks Rog


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## L5ura (18 June 2018)

Hi Rog

Your assistance would be much appreciated please!

Is it true that you can tow on a B licence if the actual weight there and then of the vehicle, trailer and all contents amounts to less than 3500kg or is that a myth?  I'm looking at a Honda CRV and Bateson Ascot (I've got my B+E booked for my own peace of mind but thinking of interim options if I fail!!)

1 B
2 kerb weight vehicle 1718kg
3 2170kg
4 max towing capacity 2000kg
5 Plated mam of trailer 2300kg 
6 Unladen weight trailer 925kg

so if my unladen vehicle and trailer weigh in at a combined 2643kg and i'll only tow one horse at 600kg - as long as me (driver), fuel and accessories don't add up to weigh more than 257kg would I be legal on a B licence?

(if I'm not legal on a B licence, is it legal if/when I pass the B+E test?)

I look forward to your reply and many thanks in advance  

Laura 

it's so confusing, with lots of different people's opinions!!


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## ROG (18 June 2018)

L5ura said:



			Hi Rog

Your assistance would be much appreciated please!

Is it true that you can tow on a B licence if the actual weight there and then of the vehicle, trailer and all contents amounts to less than 3500kg or is that a myth?  I'm looking at a Honda CRV and Bateson Ascot (I've got my B+E booked for my own peace of mind but thinking of interim options if I fail!!)

1 B
2 kerb weight vehicle 1718kg
3 2170kg
4 max towing capacity 2000kg
5 Plated mam of trailer 2300kg 
6 Unladen weight trailer 925kg

so if my unladen vehicle and trailer weigh in at a combined 2643kg and i'll only tow one horse at 600kg - as long as me (driver), fuel and accessories don't add up to weigh more than 257kg would I be legal on a B licence?

(if I'm not legal on a B licence, is it legal if/when I pass the B+E test?)

I look forward to your reply and many thanks in advance  

Laura 

it's so confusing, with lots of different people's opinions!!
		
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2170+2300=4470 so well over the 3500 limit for B towing

Down plating the trailer will not work as the empty trailer is too heavy

Your set up as it stands is under B+E rules so you need a supervisor with you


*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - 
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured to drive unless they actually drive the vehicle

With a different trailer you could tow on a B licence - perhaps a Bateson Derby which is 675 empty and can be down plated from 1700 to 1330 leaving a max of 655 for the trailer load


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## L5ura (18 June 2018)

Ahh so it is a myth then - it goes on what the vehicle and trailer could potentially weigh if fully loaded, not what it weighs at that point in time.  
That's great thank you for your reply Rog, much appreciated.  
At least it's reassuring that I will be legal with that combo when I have passed B+E - just adds pressure to test day not having that as a back up option....unless I can find an unsuspecting victim to sit with me to supervise.....haha


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## ROG (18 June 2018)

L5ura said:



			1 B
2 kerb weight vehicle 1718kg
3 2170kg
4 max towing capacity 2000kg
5 Plated mam of trailer 2300kg 
6 Unladen weight trailer 925kg
		
Click to expand...

With B+E the max trailer load is 1075kg


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## Joeyjojo (5 August 2018)

Hi ROG, can I ask a question about nose weights. Ive just been told that my cars tow bar is rated for a nose weight of 90kg. My trailers hitch is rated at 150kg. How can I work out what the nose weight is with horses on board? Can I used a nose weight gauge when horses are on board? Is that safe? 

For info the car is a Tesla model X and the trailer is a Cheval Liberte XL gold diaganol.


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## ROG (5 August 2018)

Joeyjojo said:



			Hi ROG, can I ask a question about nose weights. I&#8217;ve just been told that my car&#8217;s tow bar is rated for a nose weight of 90kg. My trailer&#8217;s hitch is rated at 150kg. How can I work out what the nose weight is with horses on board? Can I used a nose weight gauge when horses are on board? Is that safe? 

For info the car is a Tesla model X and the trailer is a Cheval Liberte XL gold diaganol.
		
Click to expand...

A nose weight gauge is the only sure way
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kampa-caravan-nose-weight-gauge-AC0225-/302642996852


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## Joeyjojo (5 August 2018)

Thanks ROG, how do you safely use the nose weight gauge with horses on board? Ive always heard that loading horses when the trailer isnt attached to a car is very unsafe. Im worried that balancing the hitch on a weight gauge and then taking the jockey wheel up would be carnage!


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## ROG (6 August 2018)

Joeyjojo said:



			Thanks ROG, how do you safely use the nose weight gauge with horses on board? I&#8217;ve always heard that loading horses when the trailer isn&#8217;t attached to a car is very unsafe. I&#8217;m worried that balancing the hitch on a weight gauge and then taking the jockey wheel up would be carnage!
		
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Never used a gauge but I think it simply goes under the hitch when stationary so what is loaded should not matter


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## friesianfan69 (6 August 2018)

Hi Roger just watching a fb post about towing and licences etc.
There are sooooo many differs in peoples opinion on it, on what is and isnt legal.
Can i ask how do you know the correct information?


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## ROG (6 August 2018)

friesianfan69 said:



			Hi Roger just watching a fb post about towing and licences etc.
There are sooooo many differs in peoples opinion on it, on what is and isnt legal.
Can i ask how do you know the correct information?
		
Click to expand...

Yes in post number 3000 of this thread


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## friesianfan69 (6 August 2018)

Omg can you link it here ?


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## Crackerz (6 August 2018)

friesianfan69 said:



			Omg can you link it here ?
		
Click to expand...

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?490195-Welcome-to-HHO-Towing-Clinic/page300

If that link doesnt work, it's on page 300


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## friesianfan69 (6 August 2018)

awww thanks yes i just had a look thankyou.
So what i mean was do you do towing tests or similar? 
Where do you learn your info from i mean lol


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## ROG (6 August 2018)

friesianfan69 said:



			awww thanks yes i just had a look thankyou.
So what i mean was do you do towing tests or similar? 
Where do you learn your info from i mean lol
		
Click to expand...

I was a LGV C CE and BE instructor from 2005 to 2008

My info is triple checked with DVLA, police traffic and often the DfT via emails with my MP

I always use a public forum for Q&As because we are all human and can get things wrong from time to time

If I cannot give a definitive legal answer then I will make it clear that I only THINK the info is correct

Does that answer all of your queries?


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## friesianfan69 (6 August 2018)

Thats great thankyou, just so many people question it. I got my info from here thanks to you so you clearly know what your talking about.


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## ester (6 August 2018)

Said FB post really surprised me, I genuinely didn't realise that after all this time people still have completely random ideas about what is and isn't legal, including those who state they have police and trading standards connections! 

As it has now poofed, I hope a few people perhaps found their way to this thread.


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## friesianfan69 (6 August 2018)

Yes i totally agree its crazy!
Hence why i linked to this thread as i didnt have a clue who to believe and what was right or wrong until i found Rog on here.


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## ROG (6 August 2018)

ROG said:



			Yes in post number 3000 of this thread
		
Click to expand...

Here is the link to post number 3000 = https://forums-secure.horseandhound...ing-Clinic&p=13452720&viewfull=1#post13452720

I hope that post has made things as simple as legally possible for all


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## Crackerz (7 August 2018)

ester said:



			Said FB post really surprised me, I genuinely didn't realise that after all this time people still have completely random ideas about what is and isn't legal, including those who state they have police and trading standards connections! 

As it has now poofed, I hope a few people perhaps found their way to this thread.
		
Click to expand...

I think i was the one that pointed people here, if it's the same Facebook post!


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## ROG (7 August 2018)

Can you link to the FB post please


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## ester (7 August 2018)

It was deleted ROG, which given the amount of random information flying around was probably the best thing. 
It was someone who thought that they could tow up to 3.5T train weight who had been told no she couldn't tow any trailer on a B licence, and rather a lot of people agreeing with the latter, suggesting she needed a licence to transport livestock etc etc. 

*waves at crackerz, I can't even remember which group it was on, I thought it was cambs one.  I was the one that said you got their first


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## Alibear (7 August 2018)

Just wanted to say thankyou to ROG and the reminder of post 3000, your comments and the linked VOSA guide has saved me £250 to needlessly down plate my new trailer.  
I may print the guide and keep it in the glove box.


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## ROG (7 August 2018)

Alibear said:



			Just wanted to say thankyou to ROG and the reminder of post 3000, your comments and the linked VOSA guide has saved me £250 to needlessly down plate my new trailer.  
I may print the guide and keep it in the glove box.
		
Click to expand...

£250 to down plate a trailer !!!! - whose make of trailer is that ... an Arab sheiks ?


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## Crackerz (7 August 2018)

ester said:



			It was deleted ROG, which given the amount of random information flying around was probably the best thing. 
It was someone who thought that they could tow up to 3.5T train weight who had been told no she couldn't tow any trailer on a B licence, and rather a lot of people agreeing with the latter, suggesting she needed a licence to transport livestock etc etc. 

*waves at crackerz, I can't even remember which group it was on, I thought it was cambs one.  I was the one that said you got their first 

Click to expand...

I think it was a general chit chat & tack type of page? I'm on all sorts of horsey FB pages haha. Definitely sounds like the same post, i started replying to a couple of people saying they were giving incorrect info, then i realised over three quarters of people were saying she couldn't, so i just decided to link to here


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## ester (7 August 2018)

I think it was cambs horsepoo. I don't do chit chat and take  I had to leave, I couldn't take it  

there cannot have been two 
yup the numbers were staggering.


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## Fiona (8 August 2018)

Hi ROG...

I have a towing query that I really hope you can help with.

Sorry to bother you, but I know you share my liking for the Skoda Octavia as a tow car, and I'm having a bit of a problem with mine.

Its booked into the Skoda dealer on 16th for them to check it out, but I'm wondering am I on the right track...

Basically, hubby has owned a Golf 4 motion, and a Skoda Octavia 4x4, both of which have been amazing tow cars.  On grass, up hill on grass, towing a horse trailer or a builders trailer with tonne bag of stone etc.....

We have now changed to a 2015 Skoda Octavia Scout 4x4, and twice now have got it completely stuck on grass when towing.  Once at pony club with one pony on board, and once with tonne bag of stone on dry grass going uphill (both situations have been fine with prev cars in the past).

Anyway that's the background.

When the car gets stuck, the front wheels are spinning, but back wheels not moving at all.  This says to me that the car is not swapping from 2wd to 4wd.

I've done a bit of research and the Haldex box that is used in 4x4 VW/skoda is well regarded, but have read about the pump failing, and coincidentally when my Scout was serviced in March the oil in the Haldex box was changed (a different dealer to the one I'm going to next week, as I wasn't impressed with them, and hubby also prefers the other one).

Do you think I'm on the right track suspecting a potential Haldex problem, or is the car just crap at towing (I'm really hoping it isn't this btw, as hubby has now got one too, so we are a 2 Scout family haha).

Any thoughts would be welcome.

Many thanks 

Fiona


----------



## ROG (8 August 2018)

Fiona it does seem as though there is a gearbox issue - it could be that a Skoda main dealer may be your only EXPENSIVE option !!


----------



## Fiona (8 August 2018)

ROG said:



			Fiona it does seem as though there is a gearbox issue - it could be that a Skoda main dealer may be your only EXPENSIVE option !!
		
Click to expand...

It is only just out of warranty 

Fiona


----------



## View (8 August 2018)

ROG,

Please will you PM me - I think that you may be able to point me in the right direction for something, but this isn't B+E related.

Apologies for hijacking this thread.


----------



## ROG (8 August 2018)

View said:



			ROG,

Please will you PM me - I think that you may be able to point me in the right direction for something, but this isn't B+E related.

Apologies for hijacking this thread.
		
Click to expand...

My PM disabled but you can contact me on my spare email account which links to my main email
advanced.driving@live.co.uk


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## HappyDayz (16 August 2018)

I hope I have got these number right! We are looking at getting a Nugents Spirit 25 trailer and potentially a freelancer 2. Were not sure if the freelander is enough to toe with or if it would even be legal with the trailer gross weight at 2700kg. We would only be travelling one horse (650kg)

1 BE
2 1850kg
3 not too sure?
4 2000kg
5 2700
6 1100kg


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## ROG (16 August 2018)

HappyDayz said:



			I hope I have got these number right! We are looking at getting a Nugents Spirit 25 trailer and potentially a freelancer 2. Were not sure if the freelander is enough to toe with or if it would even be legal with the trailer gross weight at 2700kg. We would only be travelling one horse (650kg)

1 BE
2 1850kg
3 not too sure?
4 2000kg
5 2700
6 1100kg
		
Click to expand...

You have 2000 to play with on BE

1100 + 650 = 1750 leaving 250 spare

100% legal


----------



## HappyDayz (16 August 2018)

Is there any chance you can clear up the confusion around the veichles 2000kg two capacity and the trailers 2700kg. Ive seen so many posts saying if the trailers number is higher than the car then its illegal no matter what the load in the trailer?


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## Fiona (16 August 2018)

ROG said:



			Fiona it does seem as though there is a gearbox issue - it could be that a Skoda main dealer may be your only EXPENSIVE option !!
		
Click to expand...

There is definitely a haldex fault (either pump or wiring)....  I'm so glad I wasn't imagining things....

Car booked in again in 2 weeks time.

Fiona


----------



## HappyDayz (16 August 2018)

Okay! And then to add to my confusion! Would that set up be legal for a post 97 license to tow if there was a pre 97 license with them?!


----------



## ROG (16 August 2018)

HappyDayz said:



			Okay! And then to add to my confusion! Would that set up be legal for a post 97 license to tow if there was a pre 97 license with them?!
		
Click to expand...

YES legal as long a L plates are fitted, correct insurance and the BE holder is over 21 and has held BE for 3+ years


----------



## HappyDayz (16 August 2018)

What insurance is needed? Car is fully comp?


----------



## ROG (16 August 2018)

HappyDayz said:



			Is there any chance you can clear up the confusion around the veichles 2000kg two capacity and the trailers 2700kg. I&#8217;ve seen so many posts saying if the trailers number is higher than the car then it&#8217;s illegal no matter what the load in the trailer?
		
Click to expand...

No such law or rule

What those numpties are saying is that because it is POSSIBLE for the trailer to be loaded with more than the vehicle towing capacity can safely cope with it is illegal ...... hmmmm ... ok lets look at POSSIBLE ......

Cop stops me in a 30 limit
Cop - can your car do 70?
Me - yes
Cop - then I am arresting you as it is POSSIBLE you can do 70 in this 30 limit
Cop - what is in the boot?
Me - a rifle in a gun case as I have just come from my regular shooting range
Cop - then you are further under arrest for POSSIBLY using that for criminal purposes


----------



## ROG (16 August 2018)

HappyDayz said:



			What insurance is needed? Car is fully comp?
		
Click to expand...

All drivers who will doing the driving need to be insured to do so but if the insurer is not notified that it is being used by a learner then it can invalidate the insurance - insurers usually say thanks for info and ok at no extra cost


----------



## HappyDayz (16 August 2018)

One final question ROG (sorry! There may be more!) would the freelander / Nugent setup be suitable for a driver with B licence gained in 2014 without supervision and L plates?


----------



## ROG (16 August 2018)

HappyDayz said:



			One final question ROG (sorry! There may be more!) would the freelander / Nugent setup be suitable for a driver with B licence gained in 2014 without supervision and L plates?
		
Click to expand...

I think the FW has a GVW of 2505 and added to the trailer MAM of 2700 is a total of 5205 which is way above the 3500 limit for a B licence


----------



## JessMoo (22 August 2018)

Hi ROG

Could you help me?

I have a Vauxhall Insignia 2L CDTI.
Kerbweight: 1658kg
Gross weight: 2285kg
Towing capacity (braked): 1600kg

I also have a Ifor Williams 401.
Weight unladen: 770kg
Max weight: 1600kg
Weight loaded allowance: 830kg

And horse.
Horse weight: 440kg

Totalling 3495kg at a maximum if my car has all passengers etc.

I can tow on a B license legally? Im 25 and passed my car test in 2009.


----------



## ROG (22 August 2018)

JessMoo said:



			Hi ROG

Could you help me?

I have a Vauxhall Insignia 2L CDTI.
Kerbweight: 1658kg
Gross weight: 2285kg
Towing capacity (braked): 1600kg

I also have a Ifor Williams 401.
Weight unladen: 770kg
Max weight: 1600kg
Weight loaded allowance: 830kg

And horse.
Horse weight: 440kg

Totalling 3495kg at a maximum if my car has all passengers etc.

I can tow on a B license legally? I&#8217;m 25 and passed my car test in 2009.
		
Click to expand...

Your total MAM/GVW for licencing purposes is 3885 so over the 3500 limit for B towing 

Down plating the trailer to 1200 will not help in this case as that would only leave 430 for the trailer load which even if you could get it down plated to 1215 would be TOO close for comfort

REMEDY - you either need a vehicle with less GVW or a lighter trailer which can be down plated by its current manufacturer
EXAMPLE - a Bateson Derby is 675 empty and can be down plated to 1200 leaving 525 for the trailer load


----------



## JessMoo (22 August 2018)

ROG said:



			Your total MAM/GVW for licencing purposes is 3885 so over the 3500 limit for B towing 

Down plating the trailer to 1200 will not help in this case as that would only leave 430 for the trailer load which even if you could get it down plated to 1215 would be TOO close for comfort

REMEDY - you either need a vehicle with less GVW or a lighter trailer which can be down plated by its current manufacturer
EXAMPLE - a Bateson Derby is 675 empty and can be down plated to 1200 leaving 525 for the trailer load
		
Click to expand...

Thanks! Can I drive this with L plates and my dad/mum in the passenger seat as they have the old license?


----------



## ROG (22 August 2018)

JessMoo said:



			Thanks! Can I drive this with L plates and my dad/mum in the passenger seat as they have the old license?
		
Click to expand...

YES just inform insurer


----------



## HorsesRule2009 (23 August 2018)

Hi Rog,
I'm looking at doing my b+e test and just wondering if I could tow with my current vehicle?

I've got a Suzuki 3door grand Vitara 55 plate.

Thank you


----------



## ROG (24 August 2018)

HorsesRule2009 said:



			Hi Rog,
I'm looking at doing my b+e test and just wondering if I could tow with my current vehicle?

I've got a Suzuki 3door grand Vitara 55 plate.

Thank you
		
Click to expand...

What is the GVW of the Suzuki ?

If you can locate the weight plate I could do with the top 2 numbers of the 4 listed on it
Plate is usually hidden under bonnet or in a door frame

V5 keepers doc may list max permissible weight and max towing weight


----------



## lchloer (24 August 2018)

ROG 

What would stop you down rating the GVM of a car so you would be able to tow with a B license with a better tow vehicle? For instance a Kia Sorento with a GVW of 2600KG down rated to 2200KG (kerb weight 2075KG).  Is this a paper exercise or would you need to change the VIN plate?


----------



## ROG (24 August 2018)

lchloer said:



			ROG 

What would stop you down rating the GVM of a car so you would be able to tow with a B license with a better tow vehicle? For instance a Kia Sorento with a GVW of 2600KG down rated to 2200KG (kerb weight 2075KG).  Is this a paper exercise or would you need to change the VIN plate?
		
Click to expand...

No chance of down plating the GVW of a car

Easy to down plate a trailer if the manufacturer is still trading


----------



## Templebar (29 August 2018)

Hi just wondering if my car will tow my trailer i have doubts but it doesn't hurt to ask. I have tried to get my head around it but i am struggling a little. 

LICENCE
B or B+E = B+E just passed test

VEHICLE
GVW = 1,659
Towing capacity = 1200 (i think, there are braked and unbraked)

TRAILER - Ifor williams 505
Un-laden/empty = 905
MAM = 2,340 (max gross weight)

By my calculations its only ok with 300kg in trailer as otherwise exceeds towing capacity of the vehicle.


----------



## ROG (29 August 2018)

Templebar said:



			Hi just wondering if my car will tow my trailer i have doubts but it doesn't hurt to ask. I have tried to get my head around it but i am struggling a little. 

LICENCE
B or B+E = B+E just passed test

VEHICLE
GVW = 1,659
Towing capacity = 1200 (i think, there are braked and unbraked)

TRAILER - Ifor williams 505
Un-laden/empty = 905
MAM = 2,340 (max gross weight)

By my calculations its only ok with 300kg in trailer as otherwise exceeds towing capacity of the vehicle.
		
Click to expand...

You are correct - max load for trailer 295kgs


----------



## lchloer (29 August 2018)

Thanks Rog&#9786;


----------



## Templebar (30 August 2018)

ROG said:



			You are correct - max load for trailer 295kgs
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, i think im getting there. So if the towing capacity was greater, so i need around 1,500kg for one horse or around 2000 for two. What figures do i then need to check to ensure we are legal?


----------



## ROG (30 August 2018)

Templebar said:



			Thanks, i think im getting there. So if the towing capacity was greater, so i need around 1,500kg for one horse or around 2000 for two. What figures do i then need to check to ensure we are legal?
		
Click to expand...

Towing capacity of at least - 
1500 for one 
2000 for two

That's  it as you have B+E


----------



## KLT (2 September 2018)

Hi Rog.
I have a B licence.
I have done the B&E test and failed on the reverse.  I was fine with everything else.  I will do it again but im so devastated to have failed it might take a while to drum up the courage as im Awful under test situations.
In the mean time, I only want to travel my dayghters 12h pony.  We have a 2015 vw tiguan.
Im struggling to find the exact details but, I think, from the manual;

GVW: 2,230kg
Kerb: 1,840
Towing capacity: 2,200

Is there any light weight trailers that I might be able to use in the short term?
I was thinking Cheval liberte?

Thank you ever so much &#128522;


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## ROG (2 September 2018)

KLT said:



			Hi Rog.
I have a B licence.
I have done the B&E test and failed on the reverse.  I was fine with everything else.  I will do it again but i&#8217;m so devastated to have failed it might take a while to drum up the courage as i&#8217;m Awful under test situations.
In the mean time, I only want to travel my dayghter&#8217;s 12h pony.  We have a 2015 vw tiguan.
I&#8217;m struggling to find the exact details but, I think, from the manual;

GVW: 2,230kg
Kerb: 1,840
Towing capacity: 2,200

Is there any light weight trailers that I might be able to use in the short term?
I was thinking Cheval liberte?

Thank you ever so much &#55357;&#56842;
		
Click to expand...

With something like a Bateson Derby trailer down plated from 1700 to 1250 and weighing 675 empty would leave a max of 575 for the trailer load which will be B licence legal


----------



## KLT (2 September 2018)

Hi ROG,
Thank you for getting back to me so quickly.
If I was to put the tack, water etc in the car rather than the trailer, does this change anything with the calculations?


----------



## ROG (4 September 2018)

KLT said:



			Hi ROG,
Thank you for getting back to me so quickly.
If I was to put the tack, water etc in the car rather than the trailer, does this change anything with the calculations?
		
Click to expand...

Car and trailer have separate weight limits


----------



## KLT (4 September 2018)

Thanks ROG, youre a &#11088;&#65039;


----------



## KLT (24 September 2018)

Hi ROG,
Sorry to keep asking you questions but as per my previous enquiry I have been looking at the lightweight trailers.  After your reply I decided I would see if I could get something that I could also take my elderly horse (500ish kg) in should I need to do a vet visit etc so I have looked at the Bateson derby but have also been considering the Cheval Liberte gold one.  This is mainly because we have a Cheval Liberte dealership very close which would mean servicing etc would be far more convenient.
From a maths point of view they could both work but im Having conflicting answers from Bateson and Cheval Liberte about down plating.  Bateson say that they can down plate to any value I want whereas CL will only down plate to a round amount I.e 1200, 1300 etc.  CL state it is to do with EU directives.  Do you have any experience with this?

As I see it with the CL, the car is 
2230, if I have the trailer down plated to 1200 with an unladen weight of 720 that only gives me 480kg for horse?
If theyd down plate to 1260 that would give me 540kg of horse? 

Ive emailed lots of people whilst researching and been given so much wrong information (from trailer dealers themselves in some instances) especially regarding the unladen weights, that im beginning to question everything im told.  My poor husband is bored witless over my trailer saga!!

Thank ROG


----------



## ROG (24 September 2018)

KLT said:



			Hi ROG,
Sorry to keep asking you questions but as per my previous enquiry I have been looking at the lightweight trailers.  After your reply I decided I would see if I could get something that I could also take my elderly horse (500ish kg) in should I need to do a vet visit etc so I have looked at the Bateson derby but have also been considering the Cheval Liberte gold one.  This is mainly because we have a Cheval Liberte dealership very close which would mean servicing etc would be far more convenient.
From a maths point of view they could both work but im Having conflicting answers from Bateson and Cheval Liberte about down plating.  Bateson say that they can down plate to any value I want whereas CL will only down plate to a round amount I.e 1200, 1300 etc.  CL state it is to do with EU directives.  Do you have any experience with this?

As I see it with the CL, the car is 
2230, if I have the trailer down plated to 1200 with an unladen weight of 720 that only gives me 480kg for horse?
If theyd down plate to 1260 that would give me 540kg of horse? 

Ive emailed lots of people whilst researching and been given so much wrong information (from trailer dealers themselves in some instances) especially regarding the unladen weights, that im beginning to question everything im told.  My poor husband is bored witless over my trailer saga!!

Thank ROG
		
Click to expand...

There are some restrictions on down plating because it depends what the manufacturer stated when the trailer was made


----------



## EmmaC78 (26 October 2018)

Hi,

Can I ask a quick towbar question please.  I have a Kia Sorento 2015 and am about to get a tow bar fitted.  The garage have said the tow bar has a 2.5 tonne SLW.  Does that sound right?  it would be towing an IW 511 and two 550 horses.  The max tow weight of the car is 2500kg so I am thinking the towbar they are suggesting seems OK and that there would be no point in getting a tow bar with a higher rating anyway.  

Thanks

Emma


----------



## ROG (26 October 2018)

Seems ok to me BUT I am no authority on towbars


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## tallyho! (26 October 2018)

You donâ€™t need a higher rating on that then. As long as you donâ€™t go over. A 511 is already 1100 then you have 1200 on top with horses. You have 300 to play with. Just be wary what your car can do and your towbar up hills....


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## EmmaC78 (28 October 2018)

When you say to watch the tow bar up the hill do you mean that it might to too much weight on the tow bar? I do need to tow up a fairly steep hill to get to the stables.


----------



## Muddy unicorn (6 November 2018)

Hi 

Iâ€™m considering getting a single trailer (Ifor Williams 401) but am unsure if my car will be up to towing.  Itâ€™s a 2013 Mercedes E class 220 estate, automatic diesel.  The horse is 16hh and weighs about 500kg.  I passed my test a long time before 1997 so have B+E licence.

Would this work/be legal/be safe or do I need to rethink?

Thanks


----------



## ROG (7 November 2018)

What does the max towing weight state on the V5 keepers doc ? OR what are the top 2 numbers of the 4 listed on the weight plate usually hidden under the bonnet or in a door frame ?


----------



## Muddy unicorn (7 November 2018)

Thanks Rog

According to the V5 doc itâ€™s 2100 braked, 750 unbraked


----------



## ROG (7 November 2018)

SophieO said:



			Hi

Iâ€™m considering getting a single trailer (Ifor Williams 401) but am unsure if my car will be up to towing.  Itâ€™s a 2013 Mercedes E class 220 estate, automatic diesel.  The horse is 16hh and weighs about 500kg.  I passed my test a long time before 1997 so have B+E licence.

Would this work/be legal/be safe or do I need to rethink?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...




SophieO said:



			Thanks Rog

According to the V5 doc itâ€™s 2100 braked, 750 unbraked
		
Click to expand...

HB 401 is max 800 plus 500 horse = total 1300 so well under the 2100 limit


----------



## Muddy unicorn (7 November 2018)

Hurrah!  Thanks Rog - I thought it was ok but was getting very confused with all the different figures!!


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## Josephcordy (8 November 2018)

Hi ROG and others.

Good work you're doing on here. I wonder if you can help. I would like to tow an Ifor Williams 505 trailer with my Toyota RAV4 2.2 D-4D T180 (2007) car with a 560kg horse in it.
In answer to the sequence at the beginning of the thread see requested specifications below:

1 - B
2 - 1595 unladen empty weight of my vehicle
3 - 2070 is the gross weight limit on my vehicle? is this the right figure?
4 - 2000 towing capacity
5 - horse trailer printed MAM (need to double check but should be right) - 2340
6 - 905 unladen weight of the trailer

We plan to only transport one horse, not two. I work out the total weight to be 3400kg which includes two passengers and extra tack. Which should be legal.

Do I need to down plate my horse trailer to 2000 MAM for it to be suitable for me to drive on Cat B?

Thank you in advance.
joseph


----------



## ROG (8 November 2018)

Josephcordy said:



			Hi ROG and others.

Good work you're doing on here. I wonder if you can help. I would like to tow an Ifor Williams 505 trailer with my Toyota RAV4 2.2 D-4D T180 (2007) car with a 560kg horse in it.
In answer to the sequence at the beginning of the thread see requested specifications below:

1 - B
2 - 1595 unladen empty weight of my vehicle
3 - 2070 is the gross weight limit on my vehicle? is this the right figure?
4 - 2000 towing capacity
5 - horse trailer printed MAM (need to double check but should be right) - 2340
6 - 905 unladen weight of the trailer

We plan to only transport one horse, not two. I work out the total weight to be 3400kg which includes two passengers and extra tack. Which should be legal.

Do I need to down plate my horse trailer to 2000 MAM for it to be suitable for me to drive on Cat B?

Thank you in advance.
joseph
		
Click to expand...

Number 3 seems ok - leaves you 1430 for the trailer MAM which is currently 2340
Down plating the trailer to 1430 only leaves 525 for the trailer load so no good for a 560 horse

SOLUTION = need a lighter trailer such as a HB 403 where it can be down plated from 1600 to 1400 and weighs 800 max empty so leaving 600 for a horse


----------



## Josephcordy (8 November 2018)

Hi again ROG,

Thanks for this info. 

Earliy today I had called the DVLA and the police in my area and they had said that as long as the total weight is no more than 3500kg, it should be acceptable.

I can understand that you are looking at the maximum potential weight of the trailer as it should be completed, however - If I were to take my car, trailer, two passengers and tack to the weigh bridge and pay to have my vehicle weighed, and it came back as lets say 2800kg, would I then be able to drive the trailer with a horse of 560kgs in it? The maximum weight then if stopped by the police and taken to a weight bridge would be less than 3500 and surely, therefore allowing me to drive away legally?

Sorry to be a pain.

J


----------



## ROG (8 November 2018)

Josephcordy said:



			Hi again ROG,

Thanks for this info.

Earliy today I had called the DVLA and the police in my area and they had said that as long as the total weight is no more than 3500kg, it should be acceptable.

I can understand that you are looking at the maximum potential weight of the trailer as it should be completed, however - If I were to take my car, trailer, two passengers and tack to the weigh bridge and pay to have my vehicle weighed, and it came back as lets say 2800kg, would I then be able to drive the trailer with a horse of 560kgs in it? The maximum weight then if stopped by the police and taken to a weight bridge would be less than 3500 and surely, therefore allowing me to drive away legally?

Sorry to be a pain.

J
		
Click to expand...

NEVER NEVER NEVER speak to DVLA - ALWAYS EMAIL THEM so you get the answer in writing

The law is this for B licence towing
For the towing of a trailer over 750kg plated MAM the total MAM/GVW of the combination must not exceed 3500kgs

Actual weight has nothing to do with licencing laws


----------



## Bikerchickone (9 November 2018)

Hi Rog, 

Please could you advise on the following..

Mini Countryman Cooper S 5 door auto
B license 
Kerb weight 1350
GVW 2040
Braked towing capacity 1500kgs
Trailer unloaded 675, Bateson Derby
MAM 1700
Single horse weighs 503kgs

If I get the trailer downplated to 1400kgs seeing as I only want to take one horse would that mean it is within the rules?  For example, 

GVW 2040
MAM 1400
Total combined weight allowed 3440kgs
Actual weight carried 3218kgs. 

I think I have my head around it but would really appreciate confirmation from someone who knows what theyâ€™re talking about! 

Thank you ðŸ˜Š


----------



## ROG (9 November 2018)

Bikerchickone said:



			Hi Rog,

Please could you advise on the following..

Mini Countryman Cooper S 5 door auto
B license
Kerb weight 1350
GVW 2040
Braked towing capacity 1500kgs
Trailer unloaded 675, Bateson Derby
MAM 1700
Single horse weighs 503kgs

If I get the trailer downplated to 1400kgs seeing as I only want to take one horse would that mean it is within the rules?  For example,

GVW 2040
MAM 1400
Total combined weight allowed 3440kgs
Actual weight carried 3218kgs.

I think I have my head around it but would really appreciate confirmation from someone who knows what theyâ€™re talking about!

Thank you ðŸ˜Š
		
Click to expand...

All your figures and what you intend to do are spot on - well done

I think Bateson only charge about a tenner to down plate but you have to remove old plate then fix new one


----------



## Bikerchickone (9 November 2018)

ROG said:



			All your figures and what you intend to do are spot on - well done

I think Bateson only charge about a tenner to down plate but you have to remove old plate then fix new one
		
Click to expand...


Thatâ€™s great, thank you so much for the speedy reply! Almost got caught out thinking it was kerb weight rather than GVW but glad it all works. Iâ€™ll contact Bateson next week. Gotta save up the Â£1200 for Mini to fit the towbar first! 

Thanks again ðŸ˜Š


----------



## Pippity (28 November 2018)

1 - What licence they hold - B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1173kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 1650kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2659kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 1700kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 675kg


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## ROG (28 November 2018)

Pippity said:



			1 - What licence they hold - B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1173kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 1650kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2659kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 1700kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 675kg
		
Click to expand...

From your figures you only have a max towing limit of 1009 (2659-1650=1009) which is no good for towing any horse trailer - UNLESS the V5 keepers doc states a different max towing capacity?


----------



## Pippity (29 November 2018)

ROG said:



			From your figures you only have a max towing limit of 1009 (2659-1650=1009) which is no good for towing any horse trailer - UNLESS the V5 keepers doc states a different max towing capacity?
		
Click to expand...

I suspected that might be the case. Ah, well, back to the drawing board. Thanks, ROG.


----------



## Dunpony (3 December 2018)

According to the handbook my car can tow 1.5t.  Am I legal to a 2t gross weight trailer as long as I load it to under 1.5t?  Pre 97 licence
Thanks


----------



## ROG (3 December 2018)

Dunpony said:



			According to the handbook my car can tow 1.5t.  Am I legal to a 2t gross weight trailer as long as I load it to under 1.5t?  Pre 97 licence
Thanks
		
Click to expand...

The really long winded legal reply is ............
.......... YES .... LOL


----------



## Dunpony (11 December 2018)

ROG said:



			The really long winded legal reply is ............
.......... YES .... LOL
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, here is something a little different!  
Would I need an operators licence to tow the 1.5t trailer with a 6.5t box if I'm moving equipment for a club to a show?  I will get some fuel paid but no profit - the club is a ltd company and the show will hopefully make a profit.  Does that make it 'carriage of goods in connection with trade' even though I'm not getting paid?


----------



## ROG (11 December 2018)

Dunpony said:



			Thanks, here is something a little different! 
Would I need an operators licence to tow the 1.5t trailer with a 6.5t box if I'm moving equipment for a club to a show?  I will get some fuel paid but no profit - the club is a ltd company and the show will hopefully make a profit.  Does that make it 'carriage of goods in connection with trade' even though I'm not getting paid?
		
Click to expand...

IMO that is a commercial operation but cannot say for sure whether an O licence is needed or not


----------



## Dunpony (11 December 2018)

ROG said:



			IMO that is a commercial operation but cannot say for sure whether an O licence is needed or not
		
Click to expand...

Thanks very much - I'll take that as a yes!


----------



## Alibear (12 December 2018)

Slightly different than usual but have you got any thoughts on towing in the colder weather?  I say this having towed my horse to the farrier and back  last night when it was -2 degrees.  No snow but definitely ice in places on the yard.  I figured as we were a large load and going slow we would be OK. But would appreciate an experts opinion.


----------



## ROG (12 December 2018)

Alibear said:



			Slightly different than usual but have you got any thoughts on towing in the colder weather?  I say this having towed my horse to the farrier and back  last night when it was -2 degrees.  No snow but definitely ice in places on the yard.  I figured as we were a large load and going slow we would be OK. But would appreciate an experts opinion.
		
Click to expand...

If you can do it safely then ok but if got any concerns then do not venture out


----------



## The Trooper (31 December 2018)

Does anyone know (Or be able to find out) what a 52 plate Nissan Navara D22 King Cab 2.5 4x4 be able to tow? My brother reckons 3.5 ton but i am not convinced?

Thanks all.


----------



## ROG (31 December 2018)

The Trooper said:



			Does anyone know (Or be able to find out) what a 52 plate Nissan Navara D22 King Cab 2.5 4x4 be able to tow? My brother reckons 3.5 ton but i am not convinced?

Thanks all.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.autotrader.com.au/nissan/navara/towing-capacity/2002
Any help?


----------



## The Trooper (31 December 2018)

ROG said:



https://www.autotrader.com.au/nissan/navara/towing-capacity/2002
Any help?
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog, i'll have a look after work,


----------



## Abi90 (13 January 2019)

ROG or anyone I have got very confused. Iâ€™m looking to upgrade to bigger trailer post trailer test at the end of the month.

Recently seen posts on a Facebook group where people are saying that your vehicles towing capacity must be equal to or greater than the MAM of the trailer or itâ€™s not legal. Not the actual weight but the MAM. So for example, a car with a towing capacity of 2000kg towing an actual weight of 1600kg would not be legal if the MAM of the trailer was 2340kg.

Iâ€™ve looked everywhere and all the government websites seem to say that as long as the actual weight is under itâ€™s fine and yet some people are still insisting itâ€™s the MAM and that they got asked that question on their trailer test.

ROG please would you clear this up?


----------



## ROG (13 January 2019)

Abi90 said:



			ROG or anyone I have got very confused. Iâ€™m looking to upgrade to bigger trailer post trailer test at the end of the month.

Recently seen posts on a Facebook group where people are saying that your vehicles towing capacity must be equal to or greater than the MAM of the trailer or itâ€™s not legal. Not the actual weight but the MAM. So for example, a car with a towing capacity of 2000kg towing an actual weight of 1600kg would not be legal if the MAM of the trailer was 2340kg.

Iâ€™ve looked everywhere and all the government websites seem to say that as long as the actual weight is under itâ€™s fine and yet some people are still insisting itâ€™s the MAM and that they got asked that question on their trailer test.

ROG please would you clear this up?
		
Click to expand...

There is no law or rule which stes that the towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to accommodate a trailer MAM

Anyone who says different then ask them to give you a link to the law or rule they are referring to ..... they will not be able to!

Also if you get the numpty who comes up with - "but that means it has the possibility of being exceeded" - then answer with this .......
My car does 30 in a 30 limit but has the possibility of doing 70 so does that mean I can get done for speeding?


----------



## Abi90 (13 January 2019)

ROG said:



			There is no law or rule which stes that the towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to accommodate a trailer MAM

Anyone who says different then ask them to give you a link to the law or rule they are referring to ..... they will not be able to!

Also if you get the numpty who comes up with - "but that means it has the possibility of being exceeded" - then answer with this .......
My car does 30 in a 30 limit but has the possibility of doing 70 so does that mean I can get done for speeding?
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for clarifying. I did ask someone to â€œshow me where it says thatâ€ and got told â€œwell they asked me it on my trailer testâ€. Hmmm. It would be a stupid law anyway! 

Iâ€™ve also seen â€œremember you need to leave at least a 200kg buffer between your towing capacity and what you are towingâ€. I assume this is also rubbish as the manufacturer will have already done this for you when they have the vehicle itâ€™s towinf capacity so itâ€™s 100% safe?


----------



## ROG (13 January 2019)

Abi90 said:



			Thank you for clarifying. I did ask someone to â€œshow me where it says thatâ€ and got told â€œwell they asked me it on my trailer testâ€. Hmmm. It would be a stupid law anyway!

Iâ€™ve also seen â€œremember you need to leave at least a 200kg buffer between your towing capacity and what you are towingâ€. I assume this is also rubbish as the manufacturer will have already done this for you when they have the vehicle itâ€™s towinf capacity so itâ€™s 100% safe?
		
Click to expand...

Correct = more rubbish especially as a little of the trailer weight gets transferred to the vehicle when towing


----------



## Bikerchickone (26 January 2019)

Hi ROG, 

Please could you point me in the right direction for the gov website where it states that grandfather rights are okay for B+E towing? I'm being told I'm wrong but I know I've seen it on here and on a gov website that grandfather rights are okay. Thank you ðŸ˜Š


----------



## ROG (26 January 2019)

Bikerchickone said:



			Hi ROG,

Please could you point me in the right direction for the gov website where it states that grandfather rights are okay for B+E towing? I'm being told I'm wrong but I know I've seen it on here and on a gov website that grandfather rights are okay. Thank you ðŸ˜Š
		
Click to expand...

This do - https://www.gov.uk/driving-licence-categories ?


----------



## Pippity (26 January 2019)

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
B

2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
1280kg

3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
1780kg

4 - Towing capacity of the towing vehicle
1400kg

5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
1700kg

6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer
675kg

The car is a Golf 1.5 automatic, and would be towing one horse, weighing around 580kg. I'm pretty sceptical this would be possible - the Golf seems far too small - but if it's capable of short/emergency journeys, it would be a huge help.


----------



## ROG (26 January 2019)

Pippity said:



			1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
B

2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
1280kg

3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
1780kg

4 - Towing capacity of the towing vehicle
1400kg

5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
1700kg

6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer
675kg

The car is a Golf 1.5 automatic, and would be towing one horse, weighing around 580kg. I'm pretty sceptical this would be possible - the Golf seems far too small - but if it's capable of short/emergency journeys, it would be a huge help.
		
Click to expand...

GVW 1780 + MAM 1700 = 3480 so under the 3500 limit = OK for B licence towing

675+580=1255 so within the towing limit of 1400 = OK

With just the driver in the car + tack etc it is going to be about 1400 so the vehicle will be heavier than the trailer with its load = OK


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## Pippity (26 January 2019)

ROG said:



			GVW 1780 + MAM 1700 = 3480 so under the 3500 limit = OK for B licence towing

675+580=1255 so within the towing limit of 1400 = OK

With just the driver in the car + tack etc it is going to be about 1400 so the vehicle will be heavier than the trailer with its load = OK
		
Click to expand...

Fantastic, thank you!!


----------



## The Hound (26 January 2019)

1) B+E
2) 1865
3) 2505
4) 1700
5) 2340
6) 905

Thanks


----------



## ROG (27 January 2019)

The Hound said:



			1) B+E
2) 1865
3) 2505
4) 1700
5) 2340
6) 905

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Seems a low towing capacity at 1700 ????
If it is 1700 then the max you can load in the trailer is 795kg


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## The Hound (27 January 2019)

ROG said:



			Seems a low towing capacity at 1700 ????
If it is 1700 then the max you can load in the trailer is 795kg
		
Click to expand...

I was under the impression it would tow 2000kg when I bought the car. Turns out the manual version will tow 2000kg, the auto only tows 1700kg. My fault for not checking! 

I'm only planning on traveling one small horse, who weighs 450kg at the most. So 795kg should give me enough to play with? Or would I be better with a lightweight trailer? 

Thanks


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## ROG (27 January 2019)

The Hound said:



			I was under the impression it would tow 2000kg when I bought the car. Turns out the manual version will tow 2000kg, the auto only tows 1700kg. My fault for not checking!

I'm only planning on traveling one small horse, who weighs 450kg at the most. So 795kg should give me enough to play with? Or would I be better with a lightweight trailer?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Going to be about 350kg under the max tow limit so it should be fine


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## The Hound (27 January 2019)

ROG said:



			Going to be about 350kg under the max tow limit so it should be fine
		
Click to expand...

Perfect, thank you so much


----------



## SWE (31 January 2019)

Hi ROG

Buying a new 4x4 and have 3 options at the moment, just wondering if you could tell me if the setups are all legal? Horse is about 500kg and if I can't put another in it's not the end of the world at all.

Option 1 (H,T)

1 - B+E
2 - 1490 = unladen/empty weight
3 - 2050 = fully loaded weight
4 - 2000= max towing weight
5 - 2340 = max trailer weight when loaded
6 - 905 = trailer weight when empty

Option 2 (M,SS)

1 - B+E
2 - 1915 = unladen/empty weight
3 - 2710 = fully loaded weight
4 - 2800 = max towing weight
5 - 2340 = max trailer weight when loaded
6 - 905 = trailer weight when empty

Option 3 (J,C)

1 - B+E
2 - 2031 = unladen/empty weight
3 - cant find anywhere for the life of me!! = fully loaded weight
4 - 3500 = max towing weight
5 - 2340 = max trailer weight when loaded
6 - 905 = trailer weight when empty

Thanks so much for keeping up with this thread and sharing your knowledge - much appreciated!!


----------



## ROG (1 February 2019)

SWE said:



			Hi ROG

Buying a new 4x4 and have 3 options at the moment, just wondering if you could tell me if the setups are all legal? Horse is about 500kg and if I can't put another in it's not the end of the world at all.

Option 1 (H,T)

1 - B+E
2 - 1490 = unladen/empty weight
3 - 2050 = fully loaded weight
4 - 2000= max towing weight
5 - 2340 = max trailer weight when loaded
6 - 905 = trailer weight when empty

Option 2 (M,SS)

1 - B+E
2 - 1915 = unladen/empty weight
3 - 2710 = fully loaded weight
4 - 2800 = max towing weight
5 - 2340 = max trailer weight when loaded
6 - 905 = trailer weight when empty

Option 3 (J,C)

1 - B+E
2 - 2031 = unladen/empty weight
3 - cant find anywhere for the life of me!! = fully loaded weight
4 - 3500 = max towing weight
5 - 2340 = max trailer weight when loaded
6 - 905 = trailer weight when empty

Thanks so much for keeping up with this thread and sharing your knowledge - much appreciated!!
		
Click to expand...

Option 1 = max trailer load 1095
Option 2 = max trailer load 1435
Option 3 = max trailer load 1435


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## Moomin499ck (13 February 2019)

1. B
2. 1765kg (this is kerbweight/unladen right?)
3. 4188kg (not too sure about this hard to find this info on the internet)
4. 2100kg (Capacity)
5. 1905kg (HB505)
6. 905kg

Think I have this right. Its a friends car which is the Ford Kuga 2.0 5 door titanium 2010 model.


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## ROG (13 February 2019)

Moomin499ck said:



			1. B
2. 1765kg (this is kerbweight/unladen right?)
3. 4188kg (not too sure about this hard to find this info on the internet)
4. 2100kg (Capacity)
5. 1905kg (HB505)
6. 905kg

Think I have this right. Its a friends car which is the Ford Kuga 2.0 5 door titanium 2010 model.
		
Click to expand...

More likely to be about 2100 for number 3

If number 3 is 2100 then the trailer would need down plating via contact with IW to 1400 which would leave a max trailer load of 495kg 

If number 3 is 2200 then the trailer would need down plating via contact with IW to 1300 which would leave a max trailer load of 395kg


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## bluetrees (17 February 2019)

1) B
2) 1612
3) 2100
4) 1500
5) 2600
6) 865

I would only be towing a small pony  

Thank you


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## ROG (18 February 2019)

bluetrees said:



			1) B
2) 1612
3) 2100
4) 1500
5) 2600
6) 865

I would only be towing a small pony 

Thank you 

Click to expand...

GVW is 2100 so the max MAM for a trailer on a B licence is 1400 so 2600 is 1200 too much but if you can get it down plated by the trailer manufacturer to 1400 then that will leave a max of 535 for the trailer load


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## little_critter (25 February 2019)

Hi Rog, quick question. Can I tow an IW 505 with a Hyundai Tuscon 55 plate CRTD CDX (auto)?
Sorry - I forgot my licence details - I'm old enough to not have needed to take a trailer test...so whatever licence that is (sorry!)


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## ROG (25 February 2019)

little_critter said:



			Hi Rog, quick question. Can I tow an IW 505 with a Hyundai Tuscon 55 plate CRTD CDX (auto)?
Sorry - I forgot my licence details - I'm old enough to not have needed to take a trailer test...so whatever licence that is (sorry!)
		
Click to expand...

On the V5 keepers doc what does it say the max braked towing limit is?
OR
What are the top two numbers on the weight plate ?


----------



## little_critter (25 February 2019)

ROG said:



			On the V5 keepers doc what does it say the max braked towing limit is?
OR
What are the top two numbers on the weight plate ?
		
Click to expand...

I'll have to go rummage and get back to you...thanks.


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## little_critter (26 February 2019)

ROG said:



			On the V5 keepers doc what does it say the max braked towing limit is?
OR
What are the top two numbers on the weight plate ?
		
Click to expand...

Hmmm - OH has just had a look on the V5 and they're not stated. Will have to find the weight plate.


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## ROG (26 February 2019)

little_critter said:



			Hmmm - OH has just had a look on the V5 and they're not stated. Will have to find the weight plate.
		
Click to expand...

Usually hidden in a door frame or under the bonnet
Top 2 of the 4 listed numbers please


----------



## little_critter (26 February 2019)

ROG said:



			Usually hidden in a door frame or under the bonnet
Top 2 of the 4 listed numbers please
		
Click to expand...

Found it (I hope). Black sticker with some long numbers on it then:
2210kg
3810kg
1170kg
1200kg


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## ROG (26 February 2019)

little_critter said:



			Found it (I hope). Black sticker with some long numbers on it then:
2210kg
3810kg
1170kg
1200kg
		
Click to expand...

3810-2210=1600 so 1600 is the max towing capacity
IW HB505 weighs 1000 empty so you can load it with a max of 600 on a B+E licence


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## little_critter (26 February 2019)

ROG said:



			3810-2210=1600 so 1600 is the max towing capacity
IW HB505 weighs 1000 empty so you can load it with a max of 600 on a B+E licence
		
Click to expand...

Fab, thanks Rog. Horse weighs 550kg (absolute max) so sounds like we are ok.


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## TwixMum (27 February 2019)

Can anyone let me know what towing capacity I would need or suggest cars that are suitable. 

I have a b + e license. And an ifor 511 and one horse that weighs 560kg. I only ever tow one horse. 

Iâ€™m confused if I need a car to tow 2.7 tonnes even though I donâ€™t ever reach that weight or if it is the actual weight


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## ROG (28 February 2019)

TwixMum said:



			Can anyone let me know what towing capacity I would need or suggest cars that are suitable.

I have a b + e license. And an ifor 511 and one horse that weighs 560kg. I only ever tow one horse.

Iâ€™m confused if I need a car to tow 2.7 tonnes even though I donâ€™t ever reach that weight or if it is the actual weight
		
Click to expand...

HB511 is 1000 empty
Horse is 560
Total is 1560

With B+E licence you need a tow car that is listed to tow at least 1560

The tow capacity of a vehicle does not have to accommodate the MAM of a trailer


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## ItandaBit (1 March 2019)

Hi,

I tow with a 2015 Ford Kuga 2.0 AWD

I hold a B+E Licence
Kerb weight of the Kuga = 1707 (I think)
GVW = 2250 (I think)
Towing Capacity of Kuga - 2100kg
Plated MAM of the trailer = 2500kg
Unladen weight of the trailer = 930kg
Horse Weight = 548kg


I have only towed with my own horse, bearing the above in mind- My car can tow 2100kg, I would never go over that but how close is it safe to go to that figure? My horse and equitrek trail treka total - 1478kg leaving me 622kg in theory.

I have read about only towing 85% of your towing cars capacity. Is this the case?  If so I would only be able to tow 1785kg, leaving me only 307kg if I were looking to tow another horse. If my weight / tack etc is considered I am 52kg and say 30kg for all the tack and food I take  then I would only have 225kg. Is this right?


----------



## ROG (1 March 2019)

ItandaBit said:



			Hi,

I tow with a 2015 Ford Kuga 2.0 AWD

I hold a B+E Licence
Kerb weight of the Kuga = 1707 (I think)
GVW = 2250 (I think)
Towing Capacity of Kuga - 2100kg
Plated MAM of the trailer = 2500kg
Unladen weight of the trailer = 930kg
Horse Weight = 548kg


I have only towed with my own horse, bearing the above in mind- My car can tow 2100kg, I would never go over that but how close is it safe to go to that figure? My horse and equitrek trail treka total - 1478kg leaving me 622kg in theory.

I have read about only towing 85% of your towing cars capacity. Is this the case?  If so I would only be able to tow 1785kg, leaving me only 307kg if I were looking to tow another horse. If my weight / tack etc is considered I am 52kg and say 30kg for all the tack and food I take  then I would only have 225kg. Is this right?
		
Click to expand...

85% ADVICE IS FOR CARAVANS ONLY

Your vehicle is designed to tow up to 2100 so loading 1170 into the trailer should be safe and legal


----------



## ItandaBit (1 March 2019)

ROG said:



			85% ADVICE IS FOR CARAVANS ONLY

Your vehicle is designed to tow up to 2100 so loading 1170 into the trailer should be safe and legal
		
Click to expand...


Oh amazing, thanks for clearing that up for me! I just wanted to be 100% sure.


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## Moomin499ck (13 March 2019)

Hi Rog, for a friend - She is buying a CX 5 Mazda SE-L 2.2 Diesel Auto 5 door 2013 and has a HB401 trailer.

1. B
2. 1594kg
3. 2130kg (but unsure about this one). 
4. 2000 kg
5. 1600 kg (HB401)
6. 770Kg

Thanks so much!


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## ROG (13 March 2019)

Moomin499ck said:



			Hi Rog, for a friend - She is buying a CX 5 Mazda SE-L 2.2 Diesel Auto 5 door 2013 and has a HB401 trailer.

1. B
2. 1594kg
3. 2130kg (but unsure about this one).
4. 2000 kg
5. 1600 kg (HB401)
6. 770Kg

Thanks so much!
		
Click to expand...

IF 2130 is correct then the trailer needs down plating via contact with IW to 1300 (or 1350) which leaves a max of 530 (or 580) for the trailer load


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## Moomin499ck (13 March 2019)

ROG said:



			IF 2130 is correct then the trailer needs down plating via contact with IW to 1300 (or 1350) which leaves a max of 530 (or 580) for the trailer load
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ROG she is just checking with the dealership so will advise if different.


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## ROG (13 March 2019)

Moomin499ck said:



			Thanks ROG she is just checking with the dealership so will advise if different.
		
Click to expand...

Top two numbers on the weight plate will be useful


----------



## Moomin499ck (14 March 2019)

Hi Rog

Find the attached file.


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## ROG (14 March 2019)

Moomin499ck said:



			Hi Rog

Find the attached file.
		
Click to expand...

GVW 2035
Towing capacity 2000
Max trailer plated MAM for a B licence = 1465 but most will do 1450
At 1450 it will leave 680 for the trailer load


----------



## Chihuahua (4 April 2019)

Hi Rog

Hopefully I've done this right.  Hoping to buy the following car and trailer set up for B licence towing (Nissan X Trail 2.2 dci aventura and fautras JMS classic 1.5 trailer).  Info from googling and I think it's a good set up from what I can see?

1 - What licence they hold - *B*
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle *1525kg*
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle *2050kg*
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle *2000kg*
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres *website states '1050 - 2000kg', assume I would need 1200 to travel 1x 550kg horse?*
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer *650kg*

Thanks!


----------



## ROG (4 April 2019)

Chihuahua said:



			Hi Rog

Hopefully I've done this right.  Hoping to buy the following car and trailer set up for B licence towing (Nissan X Trail 2.2 dci aventura and fautras JMS classic 1.5 trailer).  Info from googling and I think it's a good set up from what I can see?

1 - What licence they hold - *B*
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle *1525kg*
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle *2050kg*
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle *2000kg*
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres *website states '1050 - 2000kg', assume I would need 1200 to travel 1x 550kg horse?*
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer *650kg*

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

If the plated weight on the trailer is over 1450 kg then it needs to be down plated via contact the manufacturer
At 1450 it will have enough load allowance to take a 550 kg horse


----------



## Kimbo767 (17 April 2019)

Hi Rog, 

I was just wondering if a Nissan Qashqai is decent enough to tow with? The model I have been looking at is a 1.6dci Tekna 4wd 2014 plate and says it can tow up to 1800kg but I have Had a couple of people say that they are not the best to tow with. I also wondered if I could tow a hb403 eith this car on a b license? 

Kerb weight ranges from 1300-1580 and the GVW ranges from 1870-2110.

The unladen weight of the trailer would be 767kg and my horse weighs around the 460-470 mark


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## Abi90 (17 April 2019)

Kimbo767 said:



			Hi Rog, 

I was just wondering if a Nissan Qashqai is decent enough to tow with? The model I have been looking at is a 1.6dci Tekna 4wd 2014 plate and says it can tow up to 1800kg but I have Had a couple of people say that they are not the best to tow with. I also wondered if I could tow a hb403 eith this car on a b license? 

Kerb weight ranges from 1300-1580 and the GVW ranges from 1870-2110.

The unladen weight of the trailer would be 767kg and my horse weighs around the 460-470 mark
		
Click to expand...

I towed a HB403 downrated to 1400kg with mine which was legal with all the weight requirements. It towed beautifully and never struggled ðŸ˜Š

Done trailer test now so buying a bigger better tow car but it worked fine. The Qashqai won tow car awards several years in a row with the old version and the facelift version (which I think youâ€™re talking about) is even better


----------



## ROG (17 April 2019)

Kimbo767 said:



			Hi Rog,

I was just wondering if a Nissan Qashqai is decent enough to tow with? The model I have been looking at is a 1.6dci Tekna 4wd 2014 plate and says it can tow up to 1800kg but I have Had a couple of people say that they are not the best to tow with. I also wondered if I could tow a hb403 eith this car on a b license?

Kerb weight ranges from 1300-1580 and the GVW ranges from 1870-2110.

The unladen weight of the trailer would be 767kg and my horse weighs around the 460-470 mark
		
Click to expand...

Cannot tell you what they are like to tow with but if it says it will tow 1800 then it will tow 1800

Lets pretend the GVW is 2000 as a mid range figure
That leaves you 1500 for the trailer plated MAM
HB403 is made at 1600 so you would need to contact IW to down plate it to 1500
That would conform to the 3500 towing B licence law
HB403 is about 780 empty so at 1500 it can be loaded with 720


----------



## Bruce17 (22 April 2019)

Hi Rog, 

I have a Nissan X-Trail with a GVW of 2160, and a just less than 500kg horse. Is there any way / trailer I can use to be able to tow on a B licence? Or will I need to take a trailer test? 

Car can pull 2000kg apparently. I believe this is the full spec - https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/nissan/x-trail/16-dci-n-vision-5dr-4wd-7-seat/spec

Thanks in advance


----------



## ROG (22 April 2019)

Bruce17 said:



			Hi Rog,

I have a Nissan X-Trail with a GVW of 2160, and a just less than 500kg horse. Is there any way / trailer I can use to be able to tow on a B licence? Or will I need to take a trailer test?

Car can pull 2000kg apparently. I believe this is the full spec - https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/nissan/x-trail/16-dci-n-vision-5dr-4wd-7-seat/spec

Thanks in advance
		
Click to expand...

YES is the easy answer
Bateson Derby trailer down plated from 1700 to 1300 will leave 625 for the trailer load


----------



## Bruce17 (22 April 2019)

ROG said:



			YES is the easy answer
Bateson Derby trailer down plated from 1700 to 1300 will leave 625 for the trailer load
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog. 
Could it be done with a Cheval liberte do you think? Derby's are like hens teeth!


----------



## ROG (23 April 2019)

Bruce17 said:



			Thanks Rog.
Could it be done with a Cheval liberte do you think? Derby's are like hens teeth!
		
Click to expand...

Touring one trailer is 750 empty so plated at 1300 will leave 550 for the trailer load


----------



## Mum4b (23 April 2019)

Hello,
First post for me, and could really do with some help!! 
I am trying to figure out which, if any trailer I can tow on my B licence. The figures are all just confusing me! 

Current car a 2017 Mitsubishi Outlander
GVW 2260
Kerb 1600
Towing capacity, braked 2000

Would like to travel 1 horse at 487kg.
I do aim to take my trailer test in the future, but for now will be just on my B licence.

Would consider a single or double trailer.
Any advice greatly appreciated.
Thank you.


----------



## ROG (23 April 2019)

Mum4b said:



			Hello,
First post for me, and could really do with some help!!
I am trying to figure out which, if any trailer I can tow on my B licence. The figures are all just confusing me!

Current car a 2017 Mitsubishi Outlander
GVW 2260
Kerb 1600
Towing capacity, braked 2000

Would like to travel 1 horse at 487kg.
I do aim to take my trailer test in the future, but for now will be just on my B licence.

Would consider a single or double trailer.
Any advice greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
		
Click to expand...

GVW of 2260 only leaves a max trailer plated MAM of 1240 and most manufacturers will down plate to round numbers such as 1200 so we are left with a 1200 max trailer MAM
The lightest trailer I know of is a BATESON DERBY at 675 so that leaves a max of 525 for the trailer load which is ok for a horse just under 500

BATESON DERBY trailer it is then down plated from 1700 to 1200 via contact with BATESON and the cost was about a tenner but you remover old plate and send with tenner to BATESON then they send you new plate to fit on - drill and pop rivet gun needed


----------



## Mum4b (24 April 2019)

Thank you very much.
Will take you  look at the Bateson.


----------



## Mum4b (25 April 2019)

Hi Rog,
Hubby has decided to buy me a 'yard' car as the Outlander is the family car & we are constantly filling it with horse hair, muddy kit etc...

I'm getting a Mercedes ML320i
GVW - 2830
KERB - 2149
TOW CAPACITY - 3500 (!!)

Am I still restricted to the Bateson Derby with this car on my B licence?


----------



## ROG (25 April 2019)

Mum4b said:



			Hi Rog,
Hubby has decided to buy me a 'yard' car as the Outlander is the family car & we are constantly filling it with horse hair, muddy kit etc...

I'm getting a Mercedes ML320i
GVW - 2830
KERB - 2149
TOW CAPACITY - 3500 (!!)

Am I still restricted to the Bateson Derby with this car on my B licence?
		
Click to expand...

Max trailer plated MAM on a B licence is 750kg with that vehicle so a bateson down plated to 750 and weighing 675 empty can carry 75kg = vehicle no good for towing any sort of horse trailer on a B licence


----------



## Mum4b (25 April 2019)

ROG said:



			Max trailer plated MAM on a B licence is 750kg with that vehicle so a bateson down plated to 750 and weighing 675 empty can carry 75kg = vehicle no good for 
towing any sort of horse trailer on a B licence[/QUO

Looks like I'm going to be taking my trailer test this summer!

Thank you for your replies and knowledge - much appreciated.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## SEL (29 April 2019)

Hi Rog
Very much appreciate some guidance on what sort of trailer I should be looking at. Plate off OH's car is below (sorry - photo is massive) and my largest horse weighs in at around 680kg and the tallest is around 15.2. I'd only likely to be travelling one of my chunkies at a time, so although I want a double horse trailer it wouldn't be taking both of the big ones together.

Thank you!

ps - we're both old enough to have BE on licence as standard.


----------



## ROG (29 April 2019)

SEL said:



			Hi Rog
Very much appreciate some guidance on what sort of trailer I should be looking at. Plate off OH's car is below (sorry - photo is massive) and my largest horse weighs in at around 680kg and the tallest is around 15.2. I'd only likely to be travelling one of my chunkies at a time, so although I want a double horse trailer it wouldn't be taking both of the big ones together.

Thank you!

ps - we're both old enough to have BE on licence as standard.
		
Click to expand...

2600 is the max towing capacity
Cannot help other than that


----------



## ReelyWheelie (30 April 2019)

Hi Rog, 

First post for me.  I'm looking at a box/large car/Estate combo and starting search and research. Trying to get my head around all the figures and just wanted to ask the below to ensure my understanding is correct.
If a box has the below specs (Cheval Touring One): 

*Unladen Weight:* 750kg
*Gross Weight:* 1100kg or optional 1600kg
The plated weight is 1100kg and there is an option to plate up to 1600? (Is that correct?) 
If it was plated to 1300kg, and carrying a Connemara Pony (over estimating weight here to be 500kg) - Then i am pulling 1250kg.

Am I correct in saying that I cannot have a vehicle with GVW 2250 (to keep me under 3500)  and it must have towing capacity to pull at least 1300.

Thanks for your help.


----------



## ROG (30 April 2019)

ReelyWheelie said:



			Hi Rog,

First post for me.  I'm looking at a box/large car/Estate combo and starting search and research. Trying to get my head around all the figures and just wanted to ask the below to ensure my understanding is correct.
If a box has the below specs (Cheval Touring One):

*Unladen Weight:* 750kg
*Gross Weight:* 1100kg or optional 1600kg
The plated weight is 1100kg and there is an option to plate up to 1600? (Is that correct?)
If it was plated to 1300kg, and carrying a Connemara Pony (over estimating weight here to be 500kg) - Then i am pulling 1250kg.

Am I correct in saying that I cannot have a vehicle with GVW 2250 (to keep me under 3500)  and it must have towing capacity to pull at least 1300.

Thanks for your help.
		
Click to expand...

Looks like you just about got the numbers ok

Trailer at 750 empty
Horse at 500
Total actual weight for trailer/load 1250
Best to get trailer plated at 1300

Vehicle GVW max 2200 to tow a 1300 plated MAM trailer on a B licence
Needs towing capacity of at least 1300 but can be 1250 if that is the max actual weight being towed


----------



## ReelyWheelie (30 April 2019)

ROG said:



			Looks like you just about got the numbers ok

Trailer at 750 empty
Horse at 500
Total actual weight for trailer/load 1250
Best to get trailer plated at 1300

Vehicle GVW max 2200 to tow a 1300 plated MAM trailer on a B licence
Needs towing capacity of at least 1300 but can be 1250 if that is the max actual weight being towed
		
Click to expand...

Thanks a million Rog, good to know that so far, I am getting a grasp on the figures and calculations.

This is all just throwing things out there for now, as I narrow things down.

But say for example on this spec, towing capacity 1500kg - would this be a feasible vehicle?

https://www.parkers.co.uk/skoda/yeti/hatchback-2009/20-tdi-cr-s-outdoor-5d/specs/

But I'm a little concerned that the GVW is not accounted for.
On this spec it says "Weight 1377kg"  - is that the same as GVW?

1377 + 750 + 500 = 2627 = legal on B licence (with a view to test ASAP for B +E)
with a 2.0 ltr diesel and 2WD because it'd be only on extremely polite terrain. No muddy fields.

Thanks again for this super thread. It is essential for newbies like me to understand fully before we go anywhere near a vehicle change.


----------



## ROG (30 April 2019)

ReelyWheelie said:



			Thanks a million Rog, good to know that so far, I am getting a grasp on the figures and calculations.

This is all just throwing things out there for now, as I narrow things down.

But say for example on this spec, towing capacity 1500kg - would this be a feasible vehicle?

https://www.parkers.co.uk/skoda/yeti/hatchback-2009/20-tdi-cr-s-outdoor-5d/specs/

But I'm a little concerned that the GVW is not accounted for.
On this spec it says "Weight 1377kg"  - is that the same as GVW?

1377 + 750 + 500 = 2627 = legal on B licence (with a view to test ASAP for B +E)
with a 2.0 ltr diesel and 2WD because it'd be only on extremely polite terrain. No muddy fields.

Thanks again for this super thread. It is essential for newbies like me to understand fully before we go anywhere near a vehicle change.
		
Click to expand...

Try this = https://www.carleasingmadesimple.com/data/skoda/yeti-outdoor/gross-vehicle-weight/  = find your model in that lot !!


----------



## lauracwd2 (1 May 2019)

Hi Rog

I've had a read through some of the queries but I'm still a bit unsure of how to calculate. I have a B+E licence. If I wanted to buy a car which had a towing capacity of 1500kg to tow one horse of 500kg what would my options be? Would I still need to get a trailer down plated or is that only an issue for B licence holders? Does the vehicle weight matter in this scenario?

Thanks


----------



## ROG (1 May 2019)

lauracwd2 said:



			Hi Rog

I've had a read through some of the queries but I'm still a bit unsure of how to calculate. I have a B+E licence. If I wanted to buy a car which had a towing capacity of 1500kg to tow one horse of 500kg what would my options be? Would I still need to get a trailer down plated or is that only an issue for B licence holders? Does the vehicle weight matter in this scenario?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

In your case you need a trailer weighing max say 900 empty and is plated at 1500 MAM or more


----------



## lauracwd2 (2 May 2019)

ROG said:



			In your case you need a trailer weighing max say 900 empty and is plated at 1500 MAM or more
		
Click to expand...

 Great thanks


----------



## Izbee (2 May 2019)

Hi ROG, 

Please can you advise?

B License
XC60 2016 plate 211bhp
I think the kerb weight is 1783kg
Trailer empty would be 1000kg
Horse is 550kg overestimated

Thanks in advance!


----------



## ROG (2 May 2019)

Izbee said:



			Hi ROG,

Please can you advise?

B License
XC60 2016 plate 211bhp
I think the kerb weight is 1783kg
Trailer empty would be 1000kg
Horse is 550kg overestimated

Thanks in advance!
		
Click to expand...

I need the GVW of the vehicle and the plated MAM weight of the trailer
My guess at the moment is about 2400 GVW and about 2400 trailer MAM which puts it way over the 3500 total for B licence towing


----------



## Izbee (2 May 2019)

ROG said:



			I need the GVW of the vehicle and the plated MAM weight of the trailer
My guess at the moment is about 2400 GVW and about 2400 trailer MAM which puts it way over the 3500 total for B licence towing
		
Click to expand...

Thanks!

If I take my trailer test, will that cover it. I'm confused by the wording on Gov.uk's website. I passed my test in 2007, so the way I've read it, is that I can tow with a vehicle with a MAM of 3500kg and any weight trailer, providing the car is capable of pulling it?


----------



## ROG (2 May 2019)

Izbee said:



			Thanks!

If I take my trailer test, will that cover it. I'm confused by the wording on Gov.uk's website. I passed my test in 2007, so the way I've read it, is that I can tow with a vehicle with a MAM of 3500kg and any weight trailer, providing the car is capable of pulling it?
		
Click to expand...

1997 not 2007 was the change date

If you drive under B+E rules then you just need the empty trailer weight plus what's in the trailer to be within the vehicle towing capacity  and the trailer plated MAM


----------



## ReelyWheelie (7 May 2019)

Hi Rog, me again -  just wondering, ignoring weight issues (I'm going to go for the trailer test and be done with it) do you know if the likes of this would be ok to tow? 
Å KODA Octavia COMBI AMBITION 1.6TDI 110BHP
Not sure of the torque of engine as yet, the manuals are online so could find out. I think its rated to tow 1800kg depending on exact spec.
is a 1.6 likely to be a bit weak for it?    I've seen a 4x4 version also with 2.0 diesel. 

Any comments welcome as at this point, trying to see what i can do with a car because an SUV just isn't practical for me in terms of when not doing horsey stuff.


----------



## ROG (8 May 2019)

ReelyWheelie said:



			Hi Rog, me again -  just wondering, ignoring weight issues (I'm going to go for the trailer test and be done with it) do you know if the likes of this would be ok to tow?
Å KODA Octavia COMBI AMBITION 1.6TDI 110BHP
Not sure of the torque of engine as yet, the manuals are online so could find out. I think its rated to tow 1800kg depending on exact spec.
is a 1.6 likely to be a bit weak for it?    I've seen a 4x4 version also with 2.0 diesel.

Any comments welcome as at this point, trying to see what i can do with a car because an SUV just isn't practical for me in terms of when not doing horsey stuff.
		
Click to expand...

If a vehicle manufacturer says it will tow X amount then that is what it will tow - or they would all be getting sued


----------



## ReelyWheelie (8 May 2019)

ROG said:



			If a vehicle manufacturer says it will tow X amount then that is what it will tow - or they would all be getting sued
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog!   Now to just decide which one i want - Decisions


----------



## ReelyWheelie (17 May 2019)

Following on from my previous threads and my hunt for an estate in my preferred colour.... I have come across reference to 'maximum nose weight'.  I believe an Octavia is 75kg max nose weight and perhaps the Superb is more. 
Can you shed any light on this Rog?  I'm not clear what this is at all. Thanks in advance!


----------



## ReelyWheelie (17 May 2019)

Found this site, which i think has clarified the nose weight thing when i punch in a few figures for vehicle and box, but I will await your thoughts 
https://towcar.info/GB/select_type.php


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## ROG (18 May 2019)

NOSE WEIGHT
The only way to measure that is with a gauge = https://www.halfords.com/camping-le...s/caravan-accessories/olpro-nose-weight-gauge  = many more on internet


----------



## TheHairyOne (18 May 2019)

Thank you ROG for this fantastic thread and for being so, so helpful. Hoping you could please confirm for me that this set up will work before I buy the car this afternoon.

Only have B.
Car: Older Freelander, 2080 GVW, can tow either 1800 or 2000 (cant remember, but not really relevent with this set up!)
Trailer: Single horse Ifor (767 from the website) or Bateson Derby.

I believe I can get the plate on either of those dropped to 1400 MAM (so combined weight is under 3.5 tonnes) and would leave me with 633kg with the single horse and over 700kg with the Derby?

Is my maths and understanding correct please and thank you! 

P.s. anyone know any other trailers that would give me 600kg payload minimum?


----------



## ROG (18 May 2019)

TheHairyOne said:



			Thank you ROG for this fantastic thread and for being so, so helpful. Hoping you could please confirm for me that this set up will work before I buy the car this afternoon.

Only have B.
Car: Older Freelander, 2080 GVW, can tow either 1800 or 2000 (cant remember, but not really relevent with this set up!)
Trailer: Single horse Ifor (767 from the website) or Bateson Derby.

I believe I can get the plate on either of those dropped to 1400 MAM (so combined weight is under 3.5 tonnes) and would leave me with 633kg with the single horse and over 700kg with the Derby?

Is my maths and understanding correct please and thank you! 

P.s. anyone know any other trailers that would give me 600kg payload minimum?
		
Click to expand...

SPOT ON with your figures

I think its about Â£50 to down plate with IW and about Â£10 to do so with Bateson


----------



## conniegirl (22 May 2019)

Right I have a bit of a strange question, I recently had my group 2 (HGV) license revoked on medical grounds and therefore can no longer drive my horsebox so I'm thinking of doing the trailer test so we can still get out and about. Does the B + E license count as group 1 or group 2? I can't find information anywhere on it.


----------



## ROG (22 May 2019)

conniegirl said:



			Right I have a bit of a strange question, I recently had my group 2 (HGV) license revoked on medical grounds and therefore can no longer drive my horsebox so I'm thinking of doing the trailer test so we can still get out and about. Does the B + E license count as group 1 or group 2? I can't find information anywhere on it.
		
Click to expand...

B+E has the same medical conditions as B (car)
No medical required for B+E
No theory
No HPT
Just take the on-road/reverse/un-couple test


----------



## conniegirl (22 May 2019)

Fab thank you. Hoping to get HGV license back next year but until then it is car and trailer.

We already have a Skoda Yeti 4x4, internet seems to quote figures between 1.8ton and 2.1ton for towing allowance, I've been offered an Ifor williams 510 in part exchange for my lorry, pony only weighs a max of 400kg (if he were very very fat!) so I think we should be ok.
will I have to down plate the trailer though as it has a much higher MAM?


----------



## ROG (22 May 2019)

conniegirl said:



			Fab thank you. Hoping to get HGV license back next year but until then it is car and trailer.

We already have a Skoda Yeti 4x4, internet seems to quote figures between 1.8ton and 2.1ton for towing allowance, I've been offered an Ifor williams 510 in part exchange for my lorry, pony only weighs a max of 400kg (if he were very very fat!) so I think we should be ok.
will I have to down plate the trailer though as it has a much higher MAM?
		
Click to expand...

Skoda yeti GVW is about 2100 max - what is your moel in this list = https://www.carleasingmadesimple.com/data/skoda/yeti-outdoor/gross-vehicle-weight/  ??
HB510 = Max gross weight 2340 kg + Unlaiden weight 905.00 kg
Down plating that to 1400 will allow for a max trailer load of 495 kg ON YOUR CURRENT B LICENCE


----------



## conniegirl (22 May 2019)

ROG said:



			Skoda yeti GVW is about 2100 max - what is your moel in this list = https://www.carleasingmadesimple.com/data/skoda/yeti-outdoor/gross-vehicle-weight/  ??
HB510 = Max gross weight 2340 kg + Unlaiden weight 905.00 kg
Down plating that to 1400 will allow for a max trailer load of 495 kg ON YOUR CURRENT B LICENCE
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, the GVW on the plate in the car is 2070kg. It can tow 1.8ton.
Thinking of getting my b+e license anyway, ideally wanted to do it as the C+E test but health put a kybosh on that

Where did you find the unladen weight for the 510? Everything Iâ€™ve found says approx 1000kgs it I canâ€™t find anything more accurate


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## ROG (23 May 2019)

I cannot seem to find the link I got the info from for the 510 but I suspect you might be correct in the 1000 empty weight  in which case you need a lighter trailer for B licence towing


----------



## conniegirl (23 May 2019)

If I get my B+E test will I need to down plate the trailer?


----------



## ROG (23 May 2019)

conniegirl said:



			If I get my B+E test will I need to down plate the trailer?
		
Click to expand...

NO - only need to down plate to conform to B licence towing laws/rules

With B+E it is easier - 
Take max towing capacity say 2000
Deduct empty trailer weight from max tow capacity = max load for trailer
Add empty trailer weight to weight of load in trailer and check it does not exceed plated trailer MAM weight


----------



## conniegirl (23 May 2019)

fab thanks, will do B+E test.


----------



## tallyho! (23 May 2019)

Very easy to do. I passed mine 1st time.


----------



## ROG (25 May 2019)

BANK HOLIDAY BUMP


----------



## tallyho! (25 May 2019)

Quick question... where/how are you supposed to attach the safety cable please ROG? Group of friends with differing views....


----------



## ROG (25 May 2019)

tallyho! said:



			Quick question... where/how are you supposed to attach the safety cable please ROG? Group of friends with differing views....
		
Click to expand...

DOYOU HAVE A ONE PIECE TOWBAR OR IS IT IN TWO BITS HELD TOGETHER WITH 2 BOLTS?


----------



## tallyho! (26 May 2019)

We all have different towbars, mine is one peice and I clip the carabiner to the hole thats with the towbar. My other friend has a bolted one and has a simillar hole underneath on the plate where the towbar bolts onto. Now she loops it around the towbar and clips it back to the cable.


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## conniegirl (30 May 2019)

quick question for you. 
Where do we stand towing on a B license if the trailer has no plate with a MAM on it or the plate is corroded and unreadable?


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## ROG (30 May 2019)

ADD UP ALL THE TYRE LOAD RATINGS AND THAT WILL BE THE TRAILER MAM


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## Warmblood95 (3 June 2019)

hi Rog,
Would this combination be safe to tow with car would be an Audi q3 quattro
Trailer is an ifor 510 and one horse (536kg)

1. B but will be taking b and e 
2.1605 kerbweight
3. 2205 gross weight
4. 2000 Towing capacity
5. 2584 trailer MAM
6. 1000 empty trailer 

Thank you


----------



## ROG (3 June 2019)

Warmblood95 said:



			hi Rog,
Would this combination be safe to tow with car would be an Audi q3 quattro
Trailer is an ifor 510 and one horse (536kg)

1. B but will be taking b and e
2.1605 kerbweight
3. 2205 gross weight
4. 2000 Towing capacity
5. 2584 trailer MAM
6. 1000 empty trailer

Thank you
		
Click to expand...

Legal with B+E
Max load for trailer = 1000kg


----------



## Ellzbellz97 (19 June 2019)

ROG - I'm looking at the Nissan Quashqai it weighs 1910kg can tow up to 1350kg , my horse weighs around 570kg, what is the weight of a trailer I can use to be legal as I only have my B licence? Thank you


----------



## ROG (19 June 2019)

Ellzbellz97 said:



			ROG - I'm looking at the Nissan Quashqai it weighs 1910kg can tow up to 1350kg , my horse weighs around 570kg, what is the weight of a trailer I can use to be legal as I only have my B licence? Thank you
		
Click to expand...

1910 GVW on a B licence means you can tow any trailer plated at 1590 max
As an example the IW HB 403 is about 800 empty and plated at 1600 
Need to contact IW and have it down plated to say 1550 
At 1550 that would leave 750 for the trailer load

Another example is the Bateson Derby which is 675 empty and plated at 1700 so contact Bateson and have it down plated to 1550 leaving 875 for the max trailer load


----------



## Ellzbellz97 (19 June 2019)

ROG said:



			1910 GVW on a B licence means you can tow any trailer plated at 1590 max
As an example the IW HB 403 is about 800 empty and plated at 1600
Need to contact IW and have it down plated to say 1550
At 1550 that would leave 750 for the trailer load

Another example is the Bateson Derby which is 675 empty and plated at 1700 so contact Bateson and have it down plated to 1550 leaving 875 for the max trailer load
		
Click to expand...

Brill thank you!! I was looking at the derbys, are there any similar ones to the weight of a derby?


----------



## ROG (19 June 2019)

Ellzbellz97 said:



			Brill thank you!! I was looking at the derbys, are there any similar ones to the weight of a derby?
		
Click to expand...

Not that I know of
The others are about the same as the HB403


----------



## Ellzbellz97 (19 June 2019)

ROG said:



			Not that I know of
The others are about the same as the HB403
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for your help


----------



## conniegirl (19 June 2019)

Ellzbellz97 said:



			Brill thank you!! I was looking at the derbys, are there any similar ones to the weight of a derby?
		
Click to expand...

Cheval Liberte 1003XL (the single horse trailer) is 550kg unladen, the 1003XXL is 750kg (the mare and foal trailer)


----------



## ROG (19 June 2019)

conniegirl said:



			Cheval Liberte 1003XL (the single horse trailer) is 550kg unladen, the 1003XXL is 750kg (the mare and foal trailer)
		
Click to expand...

*Dimensions*

Model 
1003XL = TOP FIGURE
1003XXL = LOWER FIGURE

Internal width: 
1250mm
1550mm

Internal length:
2930mm
2930mm

Internal height:
2260mm
2260mm

External width:
1770mm
2020mm

External length:
4040mm
4040mm

External height:
2720mm
2720mm

Stall length:
1800mm
1800mm

Unladen weight:
550kg
750kg

Gross weight:
1400kg
1600kg


----------



## ReelyWheelie (27 June 2019)

Hi everyone, can I ask thoughts on necessity for 4WD for towing. I'd be towing a single box, with a B+E.  I'm trying to weigh up running costs for an everyday vehicle against actual need for 4WD. 

Something like a VW Tiguan is very common here on the 2nd hand market but very, very few with the 4Motion (the 2 I've seen for sale - are well out of budget)
Then I've seen both a Rav4 and an Estate car with 4WD -  need to check the plate on both for towing capacity though.

Bearing in mind I'm willing to steer clear of muddy fields in a 2WD.

Once they have towing capacity they are rated for X so can pull X - so I am just wondering is 4WD something I should definitely get or is it just nice to have.


----------



## ROG (27 June 2019)

4X4 MAY BE NECESSARY IF NOT KEEPING TO 'NICE' SURFACES


----------



## ReelyWheelie (27 June 2019)

ROG said:



			4X4 MAY BE NECESSARY IF NOT KEEPING TO 'NICE' SURFACES
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog.  I need to have a think. So much thinking LOL i'll get there eventually with a .....*shock Horror* decision!!!!


----------



## ReelyWheelie (30 June 2019)

ROG said:



			NOSE WEIGHT
The only way to measure that is with a gauge = https://www.halfords.com/camping-le...s/caravan-accessories/olpro-nose-weight-gauge  = many more on internet
		
Click to expand...

Was just reading through my old posts and realised I forgot to ask you a general question ROG.
When towing anything, be it caravan or box, is nose weight something you check with the gauge and adjust load accordingly?    ( I know you can check it with the gauge but I am still not clear on the context.)


----------



## ROG (30 June 2019)

ReelyWheelie said:



			Was just reading through my old posts and realised I forgot to ask you a general question ROG.
When towing anything, be it caravan or box, is nose weight something you check with the gauge and adjust load accordingly?    ( I know you can check it with the gauge but I am still not clear on the context.)
		
Click to expand...

What you think is exactly correct

What do you mean by CONTEXT ?


----------



## ReelyWheelie (30 June 2019)

ROG said:



			What you think is exactly correct

What do you mean by CONTEXT ?
		
Click to expand...

I just mean, nose weight "significance" I suppose - because anyone I've ever spoken to about towing a horsebox never ever comments on nose weight or gauges.  So many people say to me just hitch and go!
Certainly something I've never seen anyone checking before we headed off.
Figured there had to be more to it than that.

Now I see it is something that should be purchased and used (and awareness of your vehicles nose weight limit) as standard no matter what you're towing. So I'll be buying mine, now that I'll be towing myself and by myself.

Thanks a million for all the info


----------



## Ellzbellz97 (17 July 2019)

One for Rog I have a VW Tiguan GVW 2080 looking at getting the ifor Williams 401 horse weighs about 560kg, believe the ifor 401 is 1600kg Iâ€™d need to downplate but even if I did would this be legal on a B licence? Thanks


----------



## ROG (17 July 2019)

Ellzbellz97 said:



			One for Rog I have a VW Tiguan GVW 2080 looking at getting the ifor Williams 401 horse weighs about 560kg, believe the ifor 401 is 1600kg Iâ€™d need to downplate but even if I did would this be legal on a B licence? Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Down plate to 1400 and that will be legal for B towing

At 1400 and 780 empty that leaves a max trailer load of 620 so you have 60 to spare


----------



## Hazkirbo (17 July 2019)

One for ROG:
Stepdad is getting brand new Volvo V60 (R-design D4) thatâ€™s got a braked towing weight of 2000kg. Horse + tack is 600kg (thatâ€™s generous, heâ€™s more like 500kg but just being safe) and local company hires out ifor Williams singles (canâ€™t remember what variety though!!) 

Heâ€™s had his licence over 25 years so has all the correct licensing to tow, just donâ€™t want to be overweight and the maths side of this frazzles me!


----------



## ROG (17 July 2019)

Hazkirbo said:



			One for ROG:
Stepdad is getting brand new Volvo V60 (R-design D4) thatâ€™s got a braked towing weight of 2000kg. Horse + tack is 600kg (thatâ€™s generous, heâ€™s more like 500kg but just being safe) and local company hires out ifor Williams singles (canâ€™t remember what variety though!!)

Heâ€™s had his licence over 25 years so has all the correct licensing to tow, just donâ€™t want to be overweight and the maths side of this frazzles me!
		
Click to expand...

IW HB401/3 is about 780 empty + horse 600 = 1380 total with a 2000 tow limit so plenty to spare


----------



## Rockland Ma Cherie (22 July 2019)

Hi
Please help ROG/ anyone else who knows for sure. 
Iâ€™ve been over and over this, but am so very confused. I have a 2015 2 wheel drive x trail. 
Vehicle weight 1500kg. 
Max braked towing weight 2000kg 
Biggest of my horses weighs 475kg 
I have a B licence. 
Is there any trailer set up you know if which carries two horses ( in case my B+E license husband can drive both of them on the odd day) but in which I could legally tow just one? Keen to get son out to pony club, but struggling! 
Thanks in advance.


----------



## ROG (23 July 2019)

Rockland Ma Cherie said:



			Hi
Please help ROG/ anyone else who knows for sure.
Iâ€™ve been over and over this, but am so very confused. I have a 2015 2 wheel drive x trail.
Vehicle weight 1500kg.
Max braked towing weight 2000kg
Biggest of my horses weighs 475kg
I have a B licence.
Is there any trailer set up you know if which carries two horses ( in case my B+E license husband can drive both of them on the odd day) but in which I could legally tow just one? Keen to get son out to pony club, but struggling!
Thanks in advance.
		
Click to expand...

One weight is missing which I need - the GVW of the vehicle
I am GUESSING that it will be around 2000kgs ???????????

Would a bateson derby mare + foal trailer be big enough providing the licence weights work out ?
https://www.batesontrailers.com/shop/horse-trailers/derby-lightweight-horse-pony/


----------



## Jenspep (6 August 2019)

Hi Rog, can I run some calculations past you please! Iâ€™m looking to downsize a 510 to a 401 so I can tow on a B license. Looked at a SWB Suzuki Grand Vitara, tow capacity 2000kg, GVW 1665kg, unladen weight 1470kg. Am I right in saying that if a 780kg 401 is down plated to 1450kg and carries a pony generously overestimated at 450kg this would be ok? With those calculations Iâ€™ve got 220kg of spare weight is that right? The weights of the same model of car differed between websites so Iâ€™m hoping those weights are accurate. 
Also, on some caravanning websites there was talk of 85% weight. Can you explain what this means and if it applies to us? Thanks so much Rog ðŸ˜Š


----------



## Jenspep (7 August 2019)

Whoops, I think those numbers are wrong.. Googling further I've found the kerb weight as 1680kg and GVW 2070kg.


----------



## ROG (7 August 2019)

Jenspep said:



			Hi Rog, can I run some calculations past you please! Iâ€™m looking to downsize a 510 to a 401 so I can tow on a B license. Looked at a SWB Suzuki Grand Vitara, tow capacity 2000kg, GVW 1665kg, unladen weight 1470kg. Am I right in saying that if a 780kg 401 is down plated to 1450kg and carries a pony generously overestimated at 450kg this would be ok? With those calculations Iâ€™ve got 220kg of spare weight is that right? The weights of the same model of car differed between websites so Iâ€™m hoping those weights are accurate.
Also, on some caravanning websites there was talk of 85% weight. Can you explain what this means and if it applies to us? Thanks so much Rog ðŸ˜Š
		
Click to expand...

Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...ng-clinic.490195/page-122#epT8e8aE3i20bWT1.99 


Jenspep said:



			Whoops, I think those numbers are wrong.. Googling further I've found the kerb weight as 1680kg and GVW 2070kg.
		
Click to expand...

vehicle GVW 2070
Trailer HB401 MAM 1600 but can be lowered to 1400 leaving a max trailer load of just over 600kg

85% ADVICE is for caravans only


----------



## Cherylx (13 August 2019)

Iâ€™m pretty useless with all the numbers and my mind is getting boggled! 

Can I tow with a 2011 freelander 2 with 2t towing capacity and a HB403 which I believe is 1600kg GW and 767kg unladen on a B licence? Horse is around 550kg


----------



## ROG (13 August 2019)

Cherylx said:



			Iâ€™m pretty useless with all the numbers and my mind is getting boggled!

Can I tow with a 2011 freelander 2 with 2t towing capacity and a HB403 which I believe is 1600kg GW and 767kg unladen on a B licence? Horse is around 550kg
		
Click to expand...

I need the GVW of the vehicle
GVW is the top of the 4 numbers on the weight plate usually hidden in the door frame or under the bonnet
OR the max permissible mass listed on the keepers V5 doc

If as I think the GVW is 2505 then no horse trailer can be towed with it on a B licence unless under B+E learner rules


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## Cherylx (13 August 2019)

ROG said:



			I need the GVW of the vehicle
GVW is the top of the 4 numbers on the weight plate usually hidden in the door frame or under the bonnet
OR the max permissible mass listed on the keepers V5 doc

If as I think the GVW is 2505 then no horse trailer can be towed with it on a B licence unless under B+E learner rules
		
Click to expand...

Is this the correct plate? The numbers seem awfully large? Thanks for your help!


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## ROG (14 August 2019)

Cherylx said:



			Is this the correct plate? The numbers seem awfully large? Thanks for your help!
		
Click to expand...

No - the correct plate only has 4 figures on it


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## ROG (14 August 2019)




----------



## ROG (14 August 2019)

cannot seem to find out how to load a picture from my pc


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## Cherylx (14 August 2019)

ROG said:



			cannot seem to find out how to load a picture from my pc
		
Click to expand...

I had a look at the V5 and you were correct in 2505. 

Test and double trailer it is for me. 

Thanks for your help!


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## ROG (14 August 2019)

Cherylx said:



			I had a look at the V5 and you were correct in 2505.

Test and double trailer it is for me.

Thanks for your help!
		
Click to expand...

In the meantime get a B+E holder to sit next to you as supervisor
Supervisor needs to have held B+E for 3 years - be age 21+ - does not need to be insured to drive it unless they sit behind the wheel on a public road


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## HufflyPuffly (6 September 2019)

Hi ROG, what can I tow with a Mitsubishi Outlander on a B licence?
The weights I've found are:



Is it a none starter and I would have to take my B+E for this car? I currently have a 3.5t box and just weighing up options, thank you in advance!


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## ROG (6 September 2019)

AlexHyde said:



			Hi ROG, what can I tow with a Mitsubishi Outlander on a B licence?
The weights I've found are:
View attachment 36397


Is it a none starter and I would have to take my B+E for this car? I currently have a 3.5t box and just weighing up options, thank you in advance!
		
Click to expand...

GVW 2360 only leaves 1140 for the max plated MAM of a trailer
The lightest trailer I know of is the Bateson Derby at 675 so with that down plated to 1140 it only leaves 465 for the max load into the trailer

Is what you are going to load in the trailer heavier than 465kg ?


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## conniegirl (6 September 2019)

ROG said:



			The lightest trailer I know of is the Bateson Derby at 675 so with that down plated to 1140 it only leaves 465 for the max load into the trailer
		
Click to expand...

The cheval liberte 1003XL had an unladen weight of 550kg so is lighter thant the Bateson Derby but is only a single trailer.


----------



## HufflyPuffly (6 September 2019)

ROG said:



			GVW 2360 only leaves 1140 for the max plated MAM of a trailer
The lightest trailer I know of is the Bateson Derby at 675 so with that down plated to 1140 it only leaves 465 for the max load into the trailer

Is what you are going to load in the trailer heavier than 465kg ?
		
Click to expand...

Yeah I'd be looking at a horse(s) that each weigh between 500-600kg realistically so even on their own they would be over, thank you that's really helpful.

If I did my B+E would it tow? Sorry all the weights are confusing!


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## ROG (6 September 2019)

conniegirl said:



			The cheval liberte 1003XL had an unladen weight of 550kg so is lighter thant the Bateson Derby but is only a single trailer.
		
Click to expand...

good find


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## ROG (6 September 2019)

AlexHyde said:



			Yeah I'd be looking at a horse(s) that each weigh between 500-600kg realistically so even on their own they would be over, thank you that's really helpful.

If I did my B+E would it tow? Sorry all the weights are confusing!
		
Click to expand...

Ok with B+E = many other trailers to choose from


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## bellsinheaven (5 November 2019)

Hi all, I am completely new to this. I am thinking of doing my B+E licence. My mare is 650KG. I am going to purchase an ifor 505, which has the following stats
Max gross weight:*2340 kg* 
Unlaiden weight 905.00 kg
Weight capacity 1435 kg
How do I know what car to buy to tow this? And what do i need to know? i am figuring that it needs to be able to tow at least 1700KG if the trailer is 905, plus 650 horse, plus tack and me in it?


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## ROG (5 November 2019)

bellsinheaven said:



			Hi all, I am completely new to this. I am thinking of doing my B+E licence. My mare is 650KG. I am going to purchase an ifor 505, which has the following stats
Max gross weight:*2340 kg*
Unlaiden weight 905.00 kg
Weight capacity 1435 kg
How do I know what car to buy to tow this? And what do i need to know? i am figuring that it needs to be able to tow at least 1700KG if the trailer is 905, plus 650 horse, plus tack and me in it?
		
Click to expand...

you will need to drive under B+E rules with that trailer
you need a car with a towing capacity of at least 1600kg (905+650+tack)
YOU travelling in the trailer is illegal !!!!!


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## bellsinheaven (6 November 2019)

ROG said:



			you will need to drive under B+E rules with that trailer
you need a car with a towing capacity of at least 1600kg (905+650+tack)
YOU travelling in the trailer is illegal !!!!!
		
Click to expand...

I meant me and the tack would travel in the car and the horse in the trailer!


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## sherry90 (28 November 2019)

HELP! 

Looking to purchase an Ifor 401 to get my 5yo out to some clinics but unsure if my current car will be able to tow (2014 2WD Ford Kuga) 

1. I have a B Licence (willing to take test if required)
2. Unsure of this but will find out! 
3. 2250kg (GVW of vehicle)
4. 1800kg (towing capacity of car)
5. 1600kg (MAM of Ifor 401) 
6. 770kg (unladen weight of Ifor 401)

Horse is 16.2hh approx 630kg.

Any help/advice much appreciated.


----------



## ROG (28 November 2019)

sherry90 said:



			HELP!

Looking to purchase an Ifor 401 to get my 5yo out to some clinics but unsure if my current car will be able to tow (2014 2WD Ford Kuga)

1. I have a B Licence (willing to take test if required)
2. Unsure of this but will find out!
3. 2250kg (GVW of vehicle)
4. 1800kg (towing capacity of car)
5. 1600kg (MAM of Ifor 401)
6. 770kg (unladen weight of Ifor 401)

Horse is 16.2hh approx 630kg.

Any help/advice much appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

With a GVW of 2250 that leaves you a max plated MAM for a trailer of 1250
A 401 is just under 770 ish empty so lets say 800 which leaves 450 for the horse - is your horse heavier than 450kg?

If horse within 450 then then the 401 can be down plated from 1600 to 1250


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## sherry90 (28 November 2019)

Horse is approx 630kg - does that just mean I need to do my test or is the car not capable?


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## ROG (28 November 2019)

sherry90 said:



			Horse is approx 630kg - does that just mean I need to do my test or is the car not capable?
		
Click to expand...

Car GVW of 2250 is too high

With a GVW of 2000 you could have the trailer plated at 1500 leaving you 700 for the horse


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## sherry90 (28 November 2019)

If I did my test would I be ok though?


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## ROG (28 November 2019)

sherry90 said:



			If I did my test would I be ok though?
		
Click to expand...

Well ok without the need to down plate


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## ROG (24 December 2019)

XMAS BUMP


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## Dru (3 January 2020)

I have a Cheval single trailer which is 750kg unladen. Horse is approx 620kg. Currently tow with 4x4 car which has towing capacity of 2500kg; occasional use only and have had no issues. Eyeing up a dream car, 4x4 but with only 1800kg capacity. Is that safe?


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## ROG (3 January 2020)

Dru said:



			I have a Cheval single trailer which is 750kg unladen. Horse is approx 620kg. Currently tow with 4x4 car which has towing capacity of 2500kg; occasional use only and have had no issues. Eyeing up a dream car, 4x4 but with only 1800kg capacity. Is that safe?
		
Click to expand...

1400 max weight being towed by a vehicle with 1800 tow capacity = well ok
Using a B+E licence = yes?


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## Dru (3 January 2020)

I'm old so can tow without a test.


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## ApolloStorm (9 January 2020)

Treated myself at Xmas with a new broom broom- Skoda Octavia 4x4
1- B+E
2- unladen is 1383
3- GVW, google tells me 2096 but not sure? 
4- towing capacity is 2000kg
5- it’s a 511, 2700
6-1000


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## ROG (9 January 2020)

ApolloStorm said:



			Treated myself at Xmas with a new broom broom- Skoda Octavia 4x4
1- B+E
2- unladen is 1383
3- GVW, google tells me 2096 but not sure?
4- towing capacity is 2000kg
5- it’s a 511, 2700
6-1000
		
Click to expand...

511 empty is 1000
Max load for trailer is 1000 due to the 2000 max towing capacity limit


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## ApolloStorm (9 January 2020)

ROG said:



			511 empty is 1000
Max load for trailer is 1000 due to the 2000 max towing capacity limit
		
Click to expand...

honestly got myself all worked up over kerb weights and such as it’s not a very heavy car? Towing the 511 and one horse would be fine?


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## ROG (9 January 2020)

ApolloStorm said:



			honestly got myself all worked up over kerb weights and such as it’s not a very heavy car? Towing the 511 and one horse would be fine?
		
Click to expand...

Trailer + horse likely to be about 1500 so easy within 2000 towing limit


----------



## Bruce17 (2 February 2020)

Can I check if my potential combination is safe please? 

I have a Nissan X trail, spec here - https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/nissan/x-trail/16-dci-n-vision-5dr-7-seat/spec

And an ifor 505.

Ive always travelled a single horse as mine wouldn't load with partitions in, however she now does so its possible that I may want to take a friend out in future, but need to check if its safe to do so? 

Driver has BE licence, so from that point of view I know we are okay, but taking two horses will be almost up to the car's max towing weight, is this actually safe to do?


----------



## ROG (3 February 2020)

Bruce17 said:



			Can I check if my potential combination is safe please?

I have a Nissan X trail, spec here - https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/nissan/x-trail/16-dci-n-vision-5dr-7-seat/spec

And an ifor 505.

Ive always travelled a single horse as mine wouldn't load with partitions in, however she now does so its possible that I may want to take a friend out in future, but need to check if its safe to do so?

Driver has BE licence, so from that point of view I know we are okay, but taking two horses will be almost up to the car's max towing weight, is this actually safe to do?
		
Click to expand...

YES
If manufacturers max tow limit was unsafe then they would be getting sued in court a lot!


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## bluetrees (12 February 2020)

Does anyone have a combination that keeps them under the 3500 as on a B licence and manages to pull a double trailer with only 1 horse (not pony) in it?  Or is this impossible?


----------



## bluetrees (12 February 2020)

ROG said:



			Car GVW of 2250 is too high

With a GVW of 2000 you could have the trailer plated at 1500 leaving you 700 for the horse
		
Click to expand...


Or does anyone have any suggestions of a car with a GVW of 2000 that I could pull a single ifor or cheval liberte (downplated to 1500)

thanks


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## ROG (12 February 2020)

bluetrees said:



			Or does anyone have any suggestions of a car with a GVW of 2000 that I could pull a single ifor or cheval liberte (downplated to 1500)

thanks 

Click to expand...

Skoda Octavia 4x4
Skoda yeti
+ loads of others

What load weight do you need to put in the trailer????


----------



## bluetrees (12 February 2020)

ROG said:



			Skoda Octavia 4x4
Skoda yeti
+ loads of others

What load weight do you need to put in the trailer????
		
Click to expand...

Hes 566.


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## bluetrees (12 February 2020)

The yeti might be too new so over budget. Thinking a mondeo or another large estate. Got a citreon c5 in mind but its 2155 gvw


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## ROG (12 February 2020)

bluetrees said:



			Hes 566.
		
Click to expand...

Lets say 600 to go into trailer
Cheval liberte trailer is 750 empty
Trailer down plated to 1400 will be ok 
That leaves 2100 GVW for the vehicle


----------



## bluetrees (12 February 2020)

ROG said:



			Lets say 600 to go into trailer
Cheval liberte trailer is 750 empty
Trailer down plated to 1400 will be ok
That leaves 2100 GVW for the vehicle
		
Click to expand...

Yes so citron c5 55 g too heavy. I'll double check it on the actual car tmz and not on line specs. Thanks


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## bluetrees (13 February 2020)

So my other option is a VW Passat estate.   Log book says it can tow 1500.  The plate in the door says the following numbers

2100kg
3600kg
1070kg
1080kg

If i get a single trailer downplated to 1400 will I be ok or a Bateson Derby downplated to 1400?  Thanks


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## ROG (13 February 2020)

bluetrees said:



			So my other option is a VW Passat estate.   Log book says it can tow 1500.  The plate in the door says the following numbers

2100kg
3600kg
1070kg
1080kg

If i get a single trailer downplated to 1400 will I be ok or a Bateson Derby downplated to 1400?  Thanks 

Click to expand...

2100 GVW
3600 GTW
3600-2100=1500 TOWING CAPACITY
BATESON DERBY is 675 empty so down plating it from 1700 to 1400 would leave a max trailer load of 725kg

Down plating a DERBY to 1300 would leave a max trailer load of 625kg and that would mean a max car GVW of 2200


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## bluetrees (13 February 2020)

ROG said:



			2100 GVW
3600 GTW
3600-2100=1500 TOWING CAPACITY
BATESON DERBY is 675 empty so down plating it from 1700 to 1400 would leave a max trailer load of 725kg

Down plating a DERBY to 1300 would leave a max trailer load of 625kg and that would mean a max car GVW of 2200
		
Click to expand...

Ah, fantastic. I didnt realise you could pick the downplating amount (within reason!) Awesome, thank you.


----------



## conniegirl (13 February 2020)

bluetrees said:



			Or does anyone have any suggestions of a car with a GVW of 2000 that I could pull a single ifor or cheval liberte (downplated to 1500)

thanks 

Click to expand...

Check which single Cheval Liberte trailer you have as the 1003XXL is 200kg heavier than the 1003XL!

We tow a Cheval Liberte 1003XL (550Kg unladen weight, 1400kg MAM) single trailer with a Skoda Yeti 4x4 comfortably within the B license limit


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## ROG (13 February 2020)

bluetrees said:



			Ah, fantastic. I didnt realise you could pick the downplating amount (within reason!) Awesome, thank you.
		
Click to expand...

I think with a Bateson trailer it costs about a tenner to down plate
You contact Bateson with trailer details
You remove current plate and send it to Bateson with money
Bateson send you new plate
You fit new plate

You could also mean a handy person with a metal drill and a pop rivet gun


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## bluetrees (13 February 2020)

conniegirl said:



			Check which single Cheval Liberte trailer you have as the 1003XXL is 200kg heavier than the 1003XL!

We tow a Cheval Liberte 1003XL (550Kg unladen weight, 1400kg MAM) single trailer with a Skoda Yeti 4x4 comfortably within the B license limit
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunatley the yetis are above my budget.   And I don't actually have the trailer yet.  I have a double wessex but I thinking of selling and getting a single so that I can stay under the B licence limits.


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## bluetrees (13 February 2020)

ROG said:



			I think with a Bateson trailer it costs about a tenner to down plate
You contact Bateson with trailer details
You remove current plate and send it to Bateson with money
Bateson send you new plate
You fit new plate

You could also mean a handy person with a metal drill and a pop rivet gun
		
Click to expand...

I know a handy person with a metal drill and pop rivet gun, so that's all good.  Now to find the trailer.


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## ROG (13 February 2020)

bluetrees said:



			I know a handy person with a metal drill and pop rivet gun, so that's all good.  Now to find the trailer.
		
Click to expand...

lightweight trailers command a higher price because they can be down plated to be used with a B licence so do not be surprised if you find doubles are cheaper than singles!!

To have a trailer down plated the manufacturer must still be trading


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## bluetrees (14 February 2020)

ROG said:



			lightweight trailers command a higher price because they can be down plated to be used with a B licence so do not be surprised if you find doubles are cheaper than singles!!

Yes, I am finding this out.....but there's seems to be a few derbys out there so maybe this is the way I will go.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Ellzbellz97 (17 February 2020)

I have a VW Tiguan GWV - 2080kg
Trailer MAM -1300kg
Trailer unladen is 650kg
Is this legal on a b licence? My horse also weighs about 560kg


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## ROG (17 February 2020)

Ellzbellz97 said:



			I have a VW Tiguan GWV - 2080kg
Trailer MAM -1300kg
Trailer unladen is 650kg
Is this legal on a b licence? My horse also weighs about 560kg
		
Click to expand...

YES - providing vehicle max tow weights allows for it
You could have a 1400 MAM trailer with that 2080 GVW


----------



## Ellzbellz97 (18 February 2020)

ROG said:



			YES - providing vehicle max tow weights allows for it
You could have a 1400 MAM trailer with that 2080 GVW
		
Click to expand...

2000kg tow capacity 😀

my trailer is only 1300 MAM so I’m lucky it’s really light


----------



## Northern Hare (24 February 2020)

Hi ROG,

Please can I check for a driver over 70 (it's not for me btw), if they want to tow a combined weight over 3,500kg, what will they need to have in place please?  Will they need to take a new test (HGV?) and Doctor's Certificate?

Many thanks 😊


----------



## ROG (24 February 2020)

Northern Hare said:



			Hi ROG,

Please can I check for a driver over 70 (it's not for me btw), if they want to tow a combined weight over 3,500kg, what will they need to have in place please?  Will they need to take a new test (HGV?) and Doctor's Certificate?

Many thanks 😊
		
Click to expand...

They will need to pass a D4 medical to get back their LGV C1 and C1+E (with the 8250 restriction) that they gained for free by passing car test before 1997 - that D4 medical will last for 3 years


----------



## ROG (24 February 2020)

ROG said:



			They will need to pass a D4 medical to get back their LGV C1 and C1+E (with the 8250 restriction) that they gained for free by passing car test before 1997 - that D4 medical will last for 3 years
		
Click to expand...

I was assuming you meant driving a VEHICLE over 3.5 tonnes but on re-reading it I think you may have meant a combo over 3.5 tonnes using a VEHICLE under 3.5 tonnes in which case all that is needed is a B+E which is retained at all ages providing the B licence remains valid


----------



## Northern Hare (25 February 2020)

ROG said:



			I was assuming you meant driving a VEHICLE over 3.5 tonnes but on re-reading it I think you may have meant a combo over 3.5 tonnes using a VEHICLE under 3.5 tonnes in which case all that is needed is a B+E which is retained at all ages providing the B licence remains valid
		
Click to expand...

Hi ROG, thanks so much for your replies and apologies for the delay in replying to you! 😊

Yes it's the combined weight of vehicle and trailer that will be over the 3,500kgs. They use a twin cab 4x4 to tow the trailer with.

Can I just double check please, does that mean they don't need either a medical nor to take an HGV test, as long as they're driving license is still valid?

Thanks again! 👍


----------



## ROG (25 February 2020)

Northern Hare said:



			Hi ROG, thanks so much for your replies and apologies for the delay in replying to you! 😊

Yes it's the combined weight of vehicle and trailer that will be over the 3,500kgs. They use a twin cab 4x4 to tow the trailer with.

Can I just double check please, does that mean they don't need either a medical nor to take an HGV test, as long as they're driving license is still valid?

Thanks again! 👍
		
Click to expand...

Correct


----------



## The Trooper (25 February 2020)

Hi ROG,

Can I check that I am right in saying I need my b+e in order to tow the following with the following...

Bateson Deauville weighing 860kg empty
Horse weighing 690kg

Mondeo mk4 estate, towing capacity of 1800kg. First number on vin plate is 2275kg (GVW?)
Actual weight is 1575kg.

Total weight taking the actual weight is under 3.5t but is not if I use the suspected GVW.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## ROG (25 February 2020)

The Trooper said:



			Hi ROG,

Can I check that I am right in saying I need my b+e in order to tow the following with the following...

Bateson Deauville weighing 860kg empty
Horse weighing 690kg

Mondeo mk4 estate, towing capacity of 1800kg. First number on vin plate is 2275kg (GVW?)
Actual weight is 1575kg.

Total weight taking the actual weight is under 3.5t but is not if I use the suspected GVW.

Thanks in advance!
		
Click to expand...

Deauville trailer is 2300 MAM
2275 + 2300 = 4575 total so over the 3500 limit for B towing
Down plating the trailer MAM will not help in this case as it would need to be 1600 allowing for a little leeway and that would still be 2275 + 1600 = 3875

You only have a max trailer MAM of 1225 to use for B towing
A lighter horse or a lesser GVW vehicle is the only solution for B towing


----------



## friesianfan69 (26 May 2020)

ROG said:



			POST NUMBER 3000 so this one is mine as its easy to refer to

*Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained*

Licensing laws are based on plated weights not actual weights.

GVW, MAM or MTPLM means maximum permissible legal weight when fully loaded.

The towing vehicle GVW can be obtained from the V5 registered keepers form listed as maximum permissible mass, the handbook, or a plate somewhere on the vehicle &#8211; usually under bonnet or hidden in a door frame &#8211; the top figure is always the GVW.

Towing capacity (manufacturer actual towing weight limit) &#8211; not legally enforceable in the RTA but based on safety and engine power under certain conditions.

GTW - the max legal weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights.
In most cases, the GVW added to the towing capacity will also be the GTW.

The trailer info can be obtained from a plate on the trailer, by calling the trailer manufacturer, or on the internet. If no plate then the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating  will be used by the authorities to determine the MAM to a maximum of 3500 even if the total is more than that.

There is no law or rule which states that the towing capacity of a vehicle must be able to cope with the plated MAM of a trailer but there are plenty of internet myths on this.

The only legally recognised way to down plate a trailer of 3500 kgs MAM or less is to contact the trailer manufacturer usually at very little cost.

The laws/rules are these for both B+E & B licence towing.
The GVW of the vehicle must not be exceeded (RTA law)
The GTW must not be exceeded (RTA law)
The plated MAM of the trailer must not be exceeded (RTA law).
The towing capacity should not be exceeded (can be prosecutable under C&U regulation 100).
The lower of the trailer MAM or the towing capacity must/should be used as the maximum actual weight when loaded.

For B licence towing with a trailer over 750 kgs MAM.
The vehicle GVW added to the trailer MAM must not exceed 3500 kg (RTA law)

EXAMPLE
Vehicle
GVW 2050 kg
Towing capacity 1700 kg
GTW 3750 kg

Trailer
Un-laden/empty 700 kg
MAM 2000 kg

For B+E licence towing the trailer can be loaded with 1000 kgs because 1000+700=1700 kg which is the towing capacity.

For B licence towing the trailer would need down plating from 2000 kgs to a maximum of 1450 kg.
The reason is that 1450+2050=3500 which is the maximum allowed for B licence towing.
The trailer can be loaded with 750 kg because 750+700=1450 kg which is the trailer MAM.

Caravan weights work on a slightly different system as they take into account the recommended (not legal) 85% towing advice.

*SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER*
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

*All B licence holders have B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence and can tow an empty or loaded trailer on all roads including motorways. *

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are driving


*The B+E test*
No medical or theory test required
*Read a number plate* from a certain distance
*VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions* = 



 - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
*VIDEO - Reversing Exercise* = http://www.drivesafedriving.co.uk/b_e_rev_movie.htm - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*DSA REVERSING TEST AREA DIAGRAM* = https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._PCV_BE_manoeuvring_exercise_area_diagram.pdf
*VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up* = 



 - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
*One hour road drive* - includes the independent drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test

The trailer must now be loaded with 600 kgs of sand bags or a 1000 kgs water IBC for the test so most companies are now training with that weight in the trailer = https://www.gov.uk/new-laden-testing-rules-for-driving-test-vehicles

*Well explained here* = http://www.trailertraining-wales.co.uk/test.html

DISCLAIMER - I have no connection to any companies which may be featured in those videos

This is interesting BUT NOT RECOMMENDED &#8211; a B licence towing set up can be presented for the B+E test but L plates must be used for the test that means you can train yourself, go to test by yourself, fit L plates, do the test, then, pass or fail, remove L plates and drive away by yourself.
*DSA B+E TEST AND VEHICLE/TRAILER REQUIREMENTS* =  http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_4022521 
Remember that the required 600 kgs of sand bags or 1 x 1000 IBC filled with water will be required in the trailer and the load must be secure.



Please post with as much of this info as you can if you want me to answer a specific query - weights in kg please

LICENCE
B or B+E =

VEHICLE
GVW =
Towing capacity =

TRAILER
Un-laden/empty =
MAM =
		
Click to expand...

Ive  got a Nissan xtrail 07 plate, if i got an  Ifor williams 401 classic, could of drive it on my licence, I passed just after April 97


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## ROG (26 May 2020)

friesianfan69 said:



			Ive  got a Nissan xtrail 07 plate, if i got an  Ifor williams 401 classic, could of drive it on my licence, I passed just after April 97
		
Click to expand...

ASSUMING the 401 classic is the same weights as the 401 standard and the Xtrail has say a GVW of 2100 then it is possible

XTRAIL GVW 2100 = need you to tell me the exact number
401 plated MAM 1600 BUT downplated to 1400 via call to IW
Leaves approx 600+ for the trailer load

LOT OF ASSUMING HERE SO NEED YOU TO GIVE ME EXACT FIGURES


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## friesianfan69 (26 May 2020)

ROG said:



			ASSUMING the 401 classic is the same weights as the 401 standard and the Xtrail has say a GVW of 2100 then it is possible

XTRAIL GVW 2100 = need you to tell me the exact number
401 plated MAM 1600 BUT downplated to 1400 via call to IW
Leaves approx 600+ for the trailer load

LOT OF ASSUMING HERE SO NEED YOU TO GIVE ME EXACT FIGURES
		
Click to expand...

My car is 2000kg Braked towing capacity, Car weight is 1525kg
401 is 770kg unladen?
1600kg Gross weight
Pony approx 443kg


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## holeymoley (26 May 2020)

Interested to hear Rog’s reply to that combination. I tow a single trailer but with a heavier car. Surely with a car of that weight you run the risk of the tail wagging the dog?


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## friesianfan69 (26 May 2020)

holeymoley said:



			Interested to hear Rog’s reply to that combination. I tow a single trailer but with a heavier car. Surely with a car of that weight you run the risk of the tail wagging the dog?
		
Click to expand...

Ive no idea hence why i am asking


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## tallyho! (26 May 2020)

holeymoley said:



			Interested to hear Rog’s reply to that combination. I tow a single trailer but with a heavier car. Surely with a car of that weight you run the risk of the tail wagging the dog?
		
Click to expand...

Snaking happens in certain circumstances, it's not all about having a heavier vehicle vs load. Loading of trailer (e.g. avoid overloading the nose); speed, winds, swerving etc.


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## ROG (26 May 2020)

friesianfan69 said:



			My car is 2000kg Braked towing capacity, Car weight is 1525kg
401 is 770kg unladen?
1600kg Gross weight
Pony approx 443kg
		
Click to expand...

I need the car GVW before giving you a definitive answer which will be between 2100 and 2300

post 3000 gives how to get that figure


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## friesianfan69 (26 May 2020)

ROG said:



			I need the car GVW before giving you a definitive answer which will be between 2100 and 2300

post 3000 gives how to get that figure
		
Click to expand...

  GVW 2050


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## ROG (26 May 2020)

friesianfan69 said:



			GVW 2050
		
Click to expand...

Thanks

Car GVW 2050 leaves max 1450 for a trailer on a B licence
If trailer is currently plated at 1600 then you need to phone IW with as many numbers off the trailer as possible and ask them to down plate it to 1450
Usually this involves you removing the current plate then sending it with the money (£50 I THINK) to IW who then send you a new plate to put on it

At 1450 with an empty weight of 770 leaves 680 for a max trailer load so about 1.5 of your ponies


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## friesianfan69 (26 May 2020)

ROG said:



			Thanks

Car GVW 2050 leaves max 1450 for a trailer on a B licence
If trailer is currently plated at 1600 then you need to phone IW with as many numbers off the trailer as possible and ask them to down plate it to 1450
Usually this involves you removing the current plate then sending it with the money (£50 I THINK) to IW who then send you a new plate to put on it

At 1450 with an empty weight of 770 leaves 680 for a max trailer load so about 1.5 of your ponies
		
Click to expand...

Thats great thankyou, Would be safe ? not back heavy?


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## ROG (26 May 2020)

friesianfan69 said:



			Thats great thankyou, Would be safe ? not back heavy?
		
Click to expand...

perfectly safe


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## friesianfan69 (3 June 2020)

Is that within my MAM weight?


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## ROG (3 June 2020)

friesianfan69 said:



			Is that within my MAM weight?
		
Click to expand...

cannot see why it would not be


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## ROG (3 June 2020)

friesianfan69 said:



			Is that within my MAM weight?
		
Click to expand...




ROG said:



			cannot see why it would not be
		
Click to expand...

ADD - as long as trailer is not plated more than 1450 if on a B licence


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## friesianfan69 (5 June 2020)

ROG said:



			ADD - as long as trailer is not plated more than 1450 if on a B licence
		
Click to expand...

Shall i downpplait to 1400 or 1450?


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## ROG (5 June 2020)

friesianfan69 said:



			Shall i downpplait to 1400 or 1450?
		
Click to expand...

If only towing with B licence then you will need to down plate trailer to a maximum of 1450 when towing with a car which has a GVW of 2050


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## Whisperingkate (16 June 2020)

I'm seeking out advice from Rog if possible please?

I have a skoda octavia scout 4x4 2011 reg, Gvw 2155kg and towing capacity of 1600kg. I have ordered a bateson derby to be used for one 550 kg horse with the partition taken out. All stuff loaded in the car not the trailer.
Please could you kindly advise what the trailer should be down plated to?  I dont want to take my B+e test. 

Many thanks


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## ROG (16 June 2020)

Whisperingkate said:



			I'm seeking out advice from Rog if possible please?

I have a skoda octavia scout 4x4 2011 reg, Gvw 2155kg and towing capacity of 1600kg. I have ordered a bateson derby to be used for one 550 kg horse with the partition taken out. All stuff loaded in the car not the trailer.
Please could you kindly advise what the trailer should be down plated to?  I dont want to take my B+e test.

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

Bateson Derby will need down plating to 1300 from its original 1700 to comply with B licence towing laws (2155+1300=3455)
At 1300 with an empty weight of 675 the trailer can take a load/horse of 625 (your horse only 550 so 75 to spare)

Not certain of price now but it used to be that bateson charged £10 for down plating
You contact Bateson with all the trailer details
You remove current plate and send it with money to bateson
Bateson send you new plate
You fix on new plate

Needs a metal drill and a pop rivet gun with a few pop rivets in most cases - many let a mechanic do the removal and fixing on


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## Starlight22 (17 June 2020)

@ROG

Hello, thanks so much with your help on my post the other day.  
I think I’m mainly through my confusion but I was wondering if you could confirm this for me-
If I buy this car :
A Skoda octavia 2011 tdi cr scout dsg 5dr automatic,
Buy a Bateson Derby trailer and downplate it to 1400, and add my 600kg horse, this will be legal on my B license?
thank you so much


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## ROG (17 June 2020)

Starlight22 said:



@ROG

Hello, thanks so much with your help on my post the other day. 
I think I’m mainly through my confusion but I was wondering if you could confirm this for me-
If I buy this car :
A Skoda octavia 2011 tdi cr scout dsg 5dr automatic,
Buy a Bateson Derby trailer and downplate it to 1400, and add my 600kg horse, this will be legal on my B license?
thank you so much
		
Click to expand...

IF the car GVW is 2100kg or less then YES


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## Kizzy2004 (17 June 2020)

Hello Rog

I’m hoping you can help with a question I have in regards to trailer down plating as there’s a lot of conflicting information around.

I have passed my B + E test but I’m having to change my company car to one with a lower towing capacity.

Vehicle has a max towing weight of 1,500kg
Gross vehicle weight 2,390kg
Kerb weight  1,890kg

Trailer is an IW505 unladen weight of 905kg
Max weight 2,340kg

I’m only towing for 1 pony who weighs 375kg so within the vehicle towing capacity with a bit of headroom but my question is do I have to have my trailer down graded to match the vehicles capacity?


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## ROG (17 June 2020)

Kizzy2004 said:



			Hello Rog

I’m hoping you can help with a question I have in regards to trailer down plating as there’s a lot of conflicting information around.

I have passed my B + E test but I’m having to change my company car to one with a lower towing capacity.

Vehicle has a max towing weight of 1,500kg
Gross vehicle weight 2,390kg
Kerb weight  1,890kg

Trailer is an IW505 unladen weight of 905kg
Max weight 2,340kg

I’m only towing for 1 pony who weighs 375kg so within the vehicle towing capacity with a bit of headroom but my question is do I have to have my trailer down graded to match the vehicles capacity?
		
Click to expand...

Many MYTHS on the internet on this but HERE IS THE LAW - 
NO NEED TO DOWN PLATE TRAILER TO MATCH VEHICLE TOWING CAPACITY = 100% FACT

When towing with a max tow capacity of 1500 the actual weight of the trailer including its load must not exceed 1500 
In your case 905+375=1280 so you have 220 to spare


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## Kizzy2004 (17 June 2020)

Wonderful thank you so much.


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## Starlight22 (18 June 2020)

Hiya, the GVW of the Škoda is 2175Kg so a bit more than I thought!
Can the trailer be downplated further to allow 600kg mare to travel legally? Thank you


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## ROG (18 June 2020)

Starlight22 said:



@ROG

Hello, thanks so much with your help on my post the other day. 
I think I’m mainly through my confusion but I was wondering if you could confirm this for me-
If I buy this car :
A Skoda octavia 2011 tdi cr scout dsg 5dr automatic,
Buy a Bateson Derby trailer and downplate it to 1400, and add my 600kg horse, this will be legal on my B license?
thank you so much
		
Click to expand...




Starlight22 said:



			Hiya, the GVW of the Škoda is 2175Kg so a bit more than I thought!
Can the trailer be downplated further to allow 600kg mare to travel legally? Thank you
		
Click to expand...

Car GVW 2200
Derby trailer down plate to 1300
Derby trailer is 675 empty so at 1300 has a max load of 625 so very close to the limit - would probably need taking to a weighbridge for exact weights to see if legal for B licence towing


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## Starlight22 (18 June 2020)

ROG said:



			Car GVW 2200
Derby trailer down plate to 1300
Derby trailer is 675 empty so at 1300 has a max load of 625 so very close to the limit - would probably need taking to a weighbridge for exact weights to see if legal for B licence towing
		
Click to expand...

Thank you 😊
do I not need to add on weight for the driver?


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## ROG (18 June 2020)

Starlight22 said:



			Thank you 😊
do I not need to add on weight for the driver?
		
Click to expand...

GVW of car includes empty car + driver and all in car
MAM of trailer is for empty trailer and all in trailer
I assume driver will not be in trailer LOL !!


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## Starlight22 (18 June 2020)

Gotcha thank you! Was worried I had to add my weight to GVW and my weight would top the GVW, would be typical 🤣 now to find an automatic Skoda Octavia, fingers crossed one comes up.  Thank you so much!


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## ROG (18 June 2020)

Starlight22 said:



			Was worried I had to add my weight to GVW and my weight would top the GVW,!
		
Click to expand...

If your weight exceeded the GVW then you REALLY NEED TO DIET !! LOL


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## Starlight22 (28 June 2020)

Hi ROG I’m back again 😂 on an unsuccessful trip to buy a Skoda I saw a jeep renegade for sale! I was wondering if it could also do the job!

Jeep renegade 2.0 4x4 
1 -  B 
2 - 1600
3 - 2100
4 - I don’t know
5 - 1700kg before downplate 
6 - Bateson Derby 675kg

I noticed the noseball weight is only 60kg.  Is this a problem? Thank you


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## ROG (28 June 2020)

Starlight22 said:



			Hi ROG I’m back again 😂 on an unsuccessful trip to buy a Skoda I saw a jeep renegade for sale! I was wondering if it could also do the job!

Jeep renegade 2.0 4x4
1 -  B
2 - 1600
3 - 2100
4 - I don’t know
5 - 1700kg before downplate
6 - Bateson Derby 675kg

I noticed the noseball weight is only 60kg.  Is this a problem? Thank you
		
Click to expand...

Cannot help with noseball weight - suggest asking about that on main forum

IF the towing capacity is at least 1400 then it will work (might just work with 1300 tow capacity but very close to limit)
Down plate trailer to 1400

This link might help = http://www.towingcapacity.co.uk/car-make-model/jeep/jeep-renegade/


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## Clemcorky (4 July 2020)

Hello , 
It’s my first thread here so I do apologise if I posted in the wrong place.
I just had one question .
It’s about driving license , I do come from France where we had to get à BE driving license to drive with a 2 horse trailer . I tried to check on the NSLS website but couldn’t find anything .
My question is , I have a Seat Arona from 2019 about 1000KG , if I wanted to buy a trailer (for two horses) must I own a BE driving license to use it ? I know in France with a B license you can’t carry , loaded more than 3.5 tones but I thought a trailer + the car + the horse (1 horse) , is about 2.5 Tons so I can still buy a 2 horse trailer as long as I only transport one horse with my B driving license correct ? Thanks a lot.
Have a great evening .


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## ROG (5 July 2020)

Clemcorky said:



			Hello ,
It’s my first thread here so I do apologise if I posted in the wrong place.
I just had one question .
It’s about driving license , I do come from France where we had to get à BE driving license to drive with a 2 horse trailer . I tried to check on the NSLS website but couldn’t find anything .
My question is , I have a Seat Arona from 2019 about 1000KG , if I wanted to buy a trailer (for two horses) must I own a BE driving license to use it ? I know in France with a B license you can’t carry , loaded more than 3.5 tones but I thought a trailer + the car + the horse (1 horse) , is about 2.5 Tons so I can still buy a 2 horse trailer as long as I only transport one horse with my B driving license correct ? Thanks a lot.
Have a great evening .
		
Click to expand...

The French and UK laws are the same on this - same with all EU counties
The GVW of the Vehicle added to the plated MAM of the trailer must not total more than 3500kg
Licences go on plated weights not actual weights

You can get a trailer MAM down plated by contacting the trailer manufacturer but in many cases that is easier to conform to the 3500 limit by using a single horse trailer

More infp on this by clicking the link in my signature below


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## Meeley81 (7 July 2020)

Hi, this is my first tine posting but I just wanted clarification as to whether I'd be correct on the weights I can legally tow? I passed my test in 2000 and I've recently realised my nissan pathfinder is too heavy realistically to allow me to be legal to tow? I have an extremely old single rice trailer which has no plate on at all but the tyres say max load of 1450kg. I've gone out and bought a 2003 nissan xtrail sport x because I believe using this vehicle im legal to tow my trailer without taking an additional b+e test, does that sound correct to you? Thank you in advance


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## ROG (8 July 2020)

Meeley81 said:



			Hi, this is my first tine posting but I just wanted clarification as to whether I'd be correct on the weights I can legally tow? I passed my test in 2000 and I've recently realised my nissan pathfinder is too heavy realistically to allow me to be legal to tow? I have an extremely old single rice trailer which has no plate on at all but the tyres say max load of 1450kg. I've gone out and bought a 2003 nissan xtrail sport x because I believe using this vehicle im legal to tow my trailer without taking an additional b+e test, does that sound correct to you? Thank you in advance
		
Click to expand...

As there is no plate then the total of the tyre load ratings are regarded as the trailer MAM by the authorities
This means either 2900 if 2 tyres or 5800 if 4 tyres
At 2900 that will mean B+E is needed as it only leaves 600 GVW for the towing vehicle !!

If you want to stay within your B licence limit then you are going to need a different trailer which can be down plated by the manufacturer and that will allow you to tow with one horse

The GVW of the Nissan ( I think is about 2100) added to the MAM of a trailer must not add up to more than 3500 for B towing so that mean a trailer with a MAM of 1400 if I have the 2100 correct

If a trailer at 1400 is 750 empty then that allows for a max load of 650 in the trailer


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## Meeley81 (8 July 2020)

ROG said:



			As there is no plate then the total of the tyre load ratings are regarded as the trailer MAM by the authorities
This means either 2900 if 2 tyres or 5800 if 4 tyres
At 2900 that will mean B+E is needed as it only leaves 600 GVW for the towing vehicle !!

If you want to stay within your B licence limit then you are going to need a different trailer which can be down plated by the manufacturer and that will allow you to tow with one horse

The GVW of the Nissan ( I think is about 2100) added to the MAM of a trailer must not add up to more than 3500 for B towing so that mean a trailer with a MAM of 1400 if I have the 2100 correct

If a trailer at 1400 is 750 empty then that allows for a max load of 650 in the trailer
		
Click to expand...

Its a double axle trailer, so has 4 tyres in total, ive had it weighed at a weigh bridge and it weighs 760kg, my mare only weighs about 500kg so I was assuming I'd be within the limits, obviously I can never tow 2 horses as its a single trailer.


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## ROG (8 July 2020)

Meeley81 said:



			Its a double axle trailer, so has 4 tyres in total, ive had it weighed at a weigh bridge and it weighs 760kg, my mare only weighs about 500kg so I was assuming I'd be within the limits, obviously I can never tow 2 horses as its a single trailer.
		
Click to expand...

Licence laws go on plated weights or in your case as there is no plate they go on the total of the tyre load ratings
That trailer can never be used for B licence towing


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## poacher82 (13 July 2020)

Hi ROG. Last time I was contemplating towing vehicles a few years ago, there was a useful website called something like towinghorsetrailers.co.uk into which you could put the weight of your horse, trailer etc and it'd give you all the options of vehicles that could tow it. I've googled like mad and can't find it, not find anything else as handy... but maybe I'm using the wrong search terms... do you happen to know if there's anything like that "out there" please?


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## ROG (13 July 2020)

poacher82 said:



			Hi ROG. Last time I was contemplating towing vehicles a few years ago, there was a useful website called something like towinghorsetrailers.co.uk into which you could put the weight of your horse, trailer etc and it'd give you all the options of vehicles that could tow it. I've googled like mad and can't find it, not find anything else as handy... but maybe I'm using the wrong search terms... do you happen to know if there's anything like that "out there" please?
		
Click to expand...

That site seems to have gone - pity as it was great
Do not know of another one


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## Meeley81 (14 July 2020)

ROG said:



			Licence laws go on plated weights or in your case as there is no plate they go on the total of the tyre load ratings
That trailer can never be used for B licence towing
		
Click to expand...

Hi ROG, so I've managed to get myself a bargain ifor williams HB401R, the plate had 3 weights on it, the top one is 1400kg and the next 2 are 700kg each, i assume with this trailer and my 2003 xtrail im perfectly legal to tow on by normal licence? Thank you in advance.


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## ROG (14 July 2020)

Meeley81 said:



			Hi ROG, so I've managed to get myself a bargain ifor williams HB401R, the plate had 3 weights on it, the top one is 1400kg and the next 2 are 700kg each, i assume with this trailer and my 2003 xtrail im perfectly legal to tow on by normal licence? Thank you in advance.
		
Click to expand...

Top one of 1400 is the trailer MAM and that added to the vehicle GVW (max 2100 in this case) must not exceed 3500
Looks like you got hold of an already down plated trailer


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## Meeley81 (14 July 2020)

ROG said:



			Top one of 1400 is the trailer MAM and that added to the vehicle GVW (max 2100 in this case) must not exceed 3500
Looks like you got hold of an already down plated trailer
		
Click to expand...

Great, so I assume that makes me all set to go? Yea the previous owner had the trailer down plated which was an added bonus, i have the original plate too in case.


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## ROG (14 July 2020)

Meeley81 said:



			Great, so I assume that makes me all set to go? Yea the previous owner had the trailer down plated which was an added bonus, i have the original plate too in case.
		
Click to expand...

If GVW of Xtrail at 2100 or less then good to go


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## Meeley81 (14 July 2020)

ROG said:



			If GVW of Xtrail at 2100 or less then good to go
		
Click to expand...

Its never likely to be anywhere near that, my tack is incredibly light and its only likely to be me in the car, I think its unladen weight is about 1500kg so that's great, im all set. Thank you so much ROG


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## poacher82 (16 July 2020)

ROG said:



			That site seems to have gone - pity as it was great
Do not know of another one
		
Click to expand...

That's a shame. Cheers for the reply though!


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## EmMa111 (16 July 2020)

Hello 
I drive a 2013 freelander 2 
And have a single ifor Williams trailer (weighs 780)
I have a cat b licence so my understanding is that without passing an extra test is that I can tow as long as I don’t go over 3500 in total for the weight of the loaded trailer and car
I’ve been to the weigh bridge and my fully loaded car, trailer and horse weighs 3400 so I assumed I was ok 
However I’ve since heard that in order to make it legal for me to tow I need to down plate my trailer ? As if I fully loaded it it would be over weight even though I never will as I can only put once horse in anyway 
The plate on my trailer is in German so I’m not sure what it means anyway 
I’m very confused any advise appreciated


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## ROG (16 July 2020)

EmMa111 said:



			Hello
I drive a 2013 freelander 2
And have a single ifor Williams trailer (weighs 780)
I have a cat b licence so my understanding is that without passing an extra test is that I can tow as long as I don’t go over 3500 in total for the weight of the loaded trailer and car
I’ve been to the weigh bridge and my fully loaded car, trailer and horse weighs 3400 so I assumed I was ok
However I’ve since heard that in order to make it legal for me to tow I need to down plate my trailer ? As if I fully loaded it it would be over weight even though I never will as I can only put once horse in anyway
The plate on my trailer is in German so I’m not sure what it means anyway
I’m very confused any advise appreciated
		
Click to expand...

Driving licences go on the plated weights not the actual weights
The B licence towing limit is 3500 total of the plated weights
That is the plated GVW of the vehicle added to the plated MAM of the trailer

I think - not certain - that your vehicle has a GVW of 2080 and if that is correct then you can tow a trailer plated at 1400 with 20 to spare
Plated at 1400 with an empty weight of 780 means you can load a max  of 620 into that trailer

To down plate from its original 1600 to 1400 you need to firstly call Ifor Williams


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## suzette (16 July 2020)

Hello! I have a Volkswagen Touareg 2012. I am looking to buy a trailer - are there any single horse trailers I'd be able to tow with a B license? or will I have to do B+E in all cases? Thank you


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## ROG (16 July 2020)

suzette said:



			Hello! I have a Volkswagen Touareg 2012. I am looking to buy a trailer - are there any single horse trailers I'd be able to tow with a B license? or will I have to do B+E in all cases? Thank you
		
Click to expand...

What is the GVW of the toureg?
What is the weight of the horse/pony?
I need those 2 figures in order to help


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## suzette (16 July 2020)

ROG said:



			What is the GVW of the toureg?
What is the weight of the horse/pony?
I need those 2 figures in order to help
		
Click to expand...

I believe GVW is 2,880kg
Weight of horse 500kg
Thank you!


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## ROG (16 July 2020)

suzette said:



			I believe GVW is 2,880kg
Weight of horse 500kg
Thank you!
		
Click to expand...

With that high a GVW the max trailer you can tow on a B licence is 750kg
To tow any horse trailer with that vehicle you need B+E

Solution = a vehicle with a GVW about 2100


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## magnoliamagnolia (25 July 2020)

Hi Rog, thank you for offering this fabulous service!

I am about to move to the UK and get a regular B license. I was hoping to buy a car/trailer combo for my ~500kg warmblood that is legal to tow without a B+E. Do you have any favorite combinations of vehicle and trailer that fit into that category?


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## ROG (25 July 2020)

magnoliamagnolia said:



			Hi Rog, thank you for offering this fabulous service!

I am about to move to the UK and get a regular B license. I was hoping to buy a car/trailer combo for my ~500kg warmblood that is legal to tow without a B+E. Do you have any favorite combinations of vehicle and trailer that fit into that category?
		
Click to expand...

Skoda Octavia 4x4 towing a down plated Bateson Derby trailer is just one idea


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## magnoliamagnolia (25 July 2020)

ROG said:



			Skoda Octavia 4x4 towing a down plated Bateson Derby trailer is just one idea
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for your quick reply. Would that be your top pick? I’m sure you’re busy and maybe you’ve answered this a lot of other times, but what would be your number 2 and 3 picks? Also, there seem to be a lot of Ifor Williams trailers for sale, would they fit this bill?


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## ROG (26 July 2020)

magnoliamagnolia said:



			Thanks for your quick reply. Would that be your top pick? I’m sure you’re busy and maybe you’ve answered this a lot of other times, but what would be your number 2 and 3 picks? Also, there seem to be a lot of Ifor Williams trailers for sale, would they fit this bill?
		
Click to expand...

What you need to research is for vehicles where the GVW is around 2100 with a tow capacity of at least 1400
A IW  HB401/3 trailer weighs about 800 empty so when down plated to 1400 will leave about 600 for the trailer load


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## magnoliamagnolia (26 July 2020)

ROG said:



			What you need to research is for vehicles where the GVW is around 2100 with a tow capacity of at least 1400
A IW  HB401/3 trailer weighs about 800 empty so when down plated to 1400 will leave about 600 for the trailer load
		
Click to expand...

 That’s incredibly helpful! Thank you!


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## gingergreg (6 August 2020)

Wondering if anyone has tow car suggestions please? Looking at an IW 403 so approx 770kg I believe? Say 650kg to be on the safe side for horse...are there any B legal car options if I had the trailer downplated? Cheap as poss ideally <£2500.


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## ROG (6 August 2020)

gingergreg said:



			Wondering if anyone has tow car suggestions please? Looking at an IW 403 so approx 770kg I believe? Say 650kg to be on the safe side for horse...are there any B legal car options if I had the trailer downplated? Cheap as poss ideally <£2500.
		
Click to expand...

Trailer + horse = 1420 but allow for a bit more so lets say between 1450 and 1500
What you are looking for is a vehicle with a max GVW of 2000kg so you can down plate the trailer from its original 1600 to 1500
The vehicle also needs to have a towing capacity of at least 1500

Here is one idea = https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/skoda/octavia-estate/16-tdi-cr-110-s-5dr/spec


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## gingergreg (6 August 2020)

ROG said:



			Trailer + horse = 1420 but allow for a bit more so lets say between 1450 and 1500
What you are looking for is a vehicle with a max GVW of 2000kg so you can down plate the trailer from its original 1600 to 1500
The vehicle also needs to have a towing capacity of at least 1500

Here is one idea = https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/skoda/octavia-estate/16-tdi-cr-110-s-5dr/spec

Click to expand...

Amazing, thank you so much! Really appreciate it


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## Orchardbeck (18 August 2020)

Hi, I am totally confused as to whether my set up is legal or not. I have a B licence, a 2010 Peugeot 4007, 1850kg (towing capacity 2t) and an IW506(920kg?). My heaviest pony is about 500kg, but I mostly tow small ponies (200kg and 300kg). I was under the impression I could tow one pony but now I'm not sure if that is the case.


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## ROG (18 August 2020)

Orchardbeck said:



			Hi, I am totally confused as to whether my set up is legal or not. I have a B licence, a 2010 Peugeot 4007, 1850kg (towing capacity 2t) and an IW506(920kg?). My heaviest pony is about 500kg, but I mostly tow small ponies (200kg and 300kg). I was under the impression I could tow one pony but now I'm not sure if that is the case.
		
Click to expand...

Licences go on the plated weights not actual weights

B licences can have a total of 3500 in plated weights which is the vehicle GVW added to the trailer MAM

I suspect the vehicle GVW is about 2400 and the trailer MAM is about 2300 so that is a total of 4700 = way over the 3500 limit for B licence towing


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## Orchardbeck (18 August 2020)

ROG said:



			Licences go on the plated weights not actual weights

B licences can have a total of 3500 in plated weights which is the vehicle GVW added to the trailer MAM

I suspect the vehicle GVW is about 2400 and the trailer MAM is about 2300 so that is a total of 4700 = way over the 3500 limit for B licence towing
		
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. Yes, this is what I suspected. Better take a test!


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## ROG (18 August 2020)

Orchardbeck said:



			Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. Yes, this is what I suspected. Better take a test!
		
Click to expand...

Other option is to get a vehicle with a lower GVW - say 2200 and then get a Bateson Derby trailer (for 2 ponies) and have it down plated to 1300 which leaves 625 for the trailer load
GVW of 2250 would work with that trailer down plated to 1250


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## Spangle (19 August 2020)

As a new trailer owner I am wondering if it is possible to fit a reversing camera onto the back of the trailer (permanently) as you often get for cars. I have asked Ifor Williams and they only suggest a magnetic, fairly large camera as you have for the interior. I had in mind a much smaller type of camera like the one on the back of my car. Can anyone point me at a solution for this? Many thanks


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## ROG (19 August 2020)

Spangle said:



			As a new trailer owner I am wondering if it is possible to fit a reversing camera onto the back of the trailer (permanently) as you often get for cars. I have asked Ifor Williams and they only suggest a magnetic, fairly large camera as you have for the interior. I had in mind a much smaller type of camera like the one on the back of my car. Can anyone point me at a solution for this? Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

I wonder if you can get a waterproof add on to a standard dash cam ?


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## chestnuttyy (20 August 2020)

Can I please double check a setup...
gvw - 2,020kg (mazda cx5)
Hb403 -780kg unladen

If i downplate to 1480, that leaves 700kg for weight to go in the trailer, correct? But what about additional weight such as tack and people?! Or is it a case of just making sure kerb weight and car load is less than 2,020kg?


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## ROG (21 August 2020)

chestnuttyy said:



			Can I please double check a setup...
gvw - 2,020kg (mazda cx5)
Hb403 -780kg unladen

If i downplate to 1480, that leaves 700kg for weight to go in the trailer, correct? But what about additional weight such as tack and people?! Or is it a case of just making sure kerb weight and car load is less than 2,020kg?
		
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I hope people  do not travel in the trailer !!! - people and tack can go in car and that comes under the car GVW 2020 not the trailer MAM 1480

You are correct on your figures for B licence towing
It is more likely that IW will only allow for a down plate to 1400 or 1450
At 1400 you will have a max trailer load of 620


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## chestnuttyy (21 August 2020)

ROG said:



			I hope people  do not travel in the trailer !!! - people and tack can go in car and that comes under the car GVW 2020 not the trailer MAM 1480

You are correct on your figures for B licence towing
It is more likely that IW will only allow for a down plate to 1400 or 1450
At 1400 you will have a max trailer load of 620
		
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Haha sorry I wasn't too clear in my post. Thank you that is as hoped.


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## Widgeon (21 August 2020)

Can I ask a numpty question please? My car will tow 2000kg but a Bateson Deauville (for argument's sake) has a gross weight on the plate of 2300kg. That's not a potential paperwork problem is it? I'm under the impression that so long as trailer + horse + tack etc doesn't exceed 2000kg, it's fine. It's just occurred to me though that maybe the trailer would need downplating. I don't know anything about this so rather than getting confused by google I thought I'd just ask here.

P.S. I took a trailer test so I don't think my licence comes into it.


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## ROG (21 August 2020)

Widgeon said:



			Can I ask a numpty question please? My car will tow 2000kg but a Bateson Deauville (for argument's sake) has a gross weight on the plate of 2300kg. That's not a potential paperwork problem is it? I'm under the impression that so long as trailer + horse + tack etc doesn't exceed 2000kg, it's fine. It's just occurred to me though that maybe the trailer would need downplating. I don't know anything about this so rather than getting confused by google I thought I'd just ask here.

P.S. I took a trailer test so I don't think my licence comes into it.
		
Click to expand...

Licence ok
There is no legal need to down plate a trailer so it does not exceed vehicle towing capacity
Simply keep total weight to the lowest which in this case is 2000


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## Widgeon (21 August 2020)

ROG said:



			Licence ok
There is no legal need to down plate a trailer so it does not exceed vehicle towing capacity
Simply keep total weight to the lowest which in this case is 2000
		
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Thanks very much for confirming. Much appreciated.


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## jamessss (22 August 2020)

Hi ROG,

I am planning to do my B+E test soon. I have a Hyundai Tucson 1.7 CRDI (GVW 2000KG, GTW 3400KG) and an Ifor BV84 (MAM 1400KG, unladen <600KG) to use for the test. The advantage of this setup is I can practice by myself 

I don't have an IBC, but I could do with 600KG of stone chippings for my garden, so was planning to buy these from somewhere that will put them into transparent sacks marked with the weight (25KG each) as per the rules. Planning to buy 25 of these to be sure of the weight, so ~625KG.

My questions are:

- Do I need any proof of the weight? e.g. do I need to get a weighbridge certificate for the loaded trailer or something, or will the examiner just count the sacks?
- If the bags are not labelled by the manufacturer (a lot seem to not have it clearly marked) can I print and stick my own labels?
- The Gov.uk website says that the "load must be appropriately secured, or you will fail the test" but doesn't give details as to how it should be secured... how would I secure 25 sacks of gravel? Can I just lay them on the floor? The interior of the trailer looks like this

Thanks!


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## ROG (22 August 2020)

jamessss said:



			Hi ROG,

I am planning to do my B+E test soon. I have a Hyundai Tucson 1.7 CRDI (GVW 2000KG, GTW 3400KG) and an Ifor BV84 (MAM 1400KG, unladen <600KG) to use for the test. The advantage of this setup is I can practice by myself 

I don't have an IBC, but I could do with 600KG of stone chippings for my garden, so was planning to buy these from somewhere that will put them into transparent sacks marked with the weight (25KG each) as per the rules. Planning to buy 25 of these to be sure of the weight, so ~625KG.

My questions are:

- Do I need any proof of the weight? e.g. do I need to get a weighbridge certificate for the loaded trailer or something, or will the examiner just count the sacks?
- If the bags are not labelled by the manufacturer (a lot seem to not have it clearly marked) can I print and stick my own labels?
- The Gov.uk website says that the "load must be appropriately secured, or you will fail the test" but doesn't give details as to how it should be secured... how would I secure 25 sacks of gravel? Can I just lay them on the floor? The interior of the trailer looks like this

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

https://www.gov.uk/car-trailer-driving-test/car-rules 
https://www.gov.uk/car-trailer-driving-test/trailer-rules 
Do those 2 links answer all your questions?


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## jamessss (22 August 2020)

ROG said:



https://www.gov.uk/car-trailer-driving-test/car-rules
https://www.gov.uk/car-trailer-driving-test/trailer-rules
Do those 2 links answer all your questions?
		
Click to expand...

Not exactly - in particular the part about securing the load just says it "must be secured safely" without saying how


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## brighteyes (22 August 2020)

magnoliamagnolia said:



			That’s incredibly helpful! Thank you!
		
Click to expand...


ROG - taking the sweat out of navigating the towing minefield since... forever, basically!


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## ROG (22 August 2020)

jamessss said:



			Not exactly - in particular the part about securing the load just says it "must be secured safely" without saying how
		
Click to expand...

That is because it depends what you have in it
If sandbags for example then as long as they are as low down and spread out so they will not move in any direction then they are ok like that

Anything in the trailer must not be able to move sideways, backwards or forwards during normal driving conditions


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## gingergreg (24 August 2020)

GVW of Nissan X Trails? I'm finding it hard to locate this info for specific models, is there an average that I could work off to establish if it will work with a B licence prior to checking the individual car's info? Looking at an older model so probably around an 04/05 plate. 

Horse - 650
Trailer will be either a 403 or Bateson Derby - 760/675

Any other vehicle suggestions that could work? I've looked at the Skoda Octavia Scout but they're not coming up within budget which is ideally < £2K

Many thanks!


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## ROG (24 August 2020)

gingergreg said:



			GVW of Nissan X Trails? I'm finding it hard to locate this info for specific models, is there an average that I could work off to establish if it will work with a B licence prior to checking the individual car's info? Looking at an older model so probably around an 04/05 plate.

Horse - 650
Trailer will be either a 403 or Bateson Derby - 760/675

Any other vehicle suggestions that could work? I've looked at the Skoda Octavia Scout but they're not coming up within budget which is ideally < £2K

Many thanks!
		
Click to expand...

https://www.autoevolution.com/cars/nissan-x-trail-2007.html#aeng_nissan-x-trail-2007-20-16v 

X trail GVW seems to be max 2100kg
Bateson Derby trailer down plated to 1400 would leave a max trailer load of 725kg


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## chestnuttyy (25 August 2020)

Rog... having a bit of an issue and hoping you can help.
Car GVW - 2035kg
Trailer HB403 - 767kg unladen, plated to 1600MAM.

contacted Ifor Williams to request the trailer be down plated to 1450kg (thus leaving me with 683kg for trailer load and they have stated that ‘by law’ they can only down plate to either 1500kg or 1400kg but nothing in between. My last trailer was downplated to the KG!

If this is the case it is going to prevent me from going ahead with my trailer purchase 

Has Something changed in the last few years?!


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## ROG (25 August 2020)

chestnuttyy said:



			Rog... having a bit of an issue and hoping you can help.
Car GVW - 2035kg
Trailer HB403 - 767kg unladen, plated to 1600MAM.

contacted Ifor Williams to request the trailer be down plated to 1450kg (thus leaving me with 683kg for trailer load and they have stated that ‘by law’ they can only down plate to either 1500kg or 1400kg but nothing in between. My last trailer was downplated to the KG!

If this is the case it is going to prevent me from going ahead with my trailer purchase 

Has Something changed in the last few years?!
		
Click to expand...

A new law/rule for down plating trailers came in some time ago where manufacturers had to list the various possible weights for each trailer and most went for exact multiples of 100

Down plated to 1400 would leave a max trailer load of 633kg 
What weight do you need to put in the trailer?


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## chestnuttyy (25 August 2020)

ROG said:



			A new law/rule for down plating trailers came in some time ago where manufacturers had to list the various possible weights for each trailer and most went for exact multiples of 100

Down plated to 1400 would leave a max trailer load of 633kg
What weight do you need to put in the trailer?
		
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Thank you, what a total pain . I think my horse is around the 600kg mark which I know is fine, but I worry he might be slightly over!


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## ROG (25 August 2020)

chestnuttyy said:



			Thank you, what a total pain . I think my horse is around the 600kg mark which I know is fine, but I worry he might be slightly over!
		
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Any way of weighing the horse ? - perhaps by using a friends trailer - they weigh the empty trailer then you put horse in it and then weigh it again. Give friend a few quid to cover any costs - IDEA?


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## RHM (7 September 2020)

Quick question - does is matter if you are towing to the max capacity of your car? My RAV4 has a tow capacity of 1650kg and I am looking at getting a Bateson lightweight trailer which has unladen weight of 675kg, for travelling one horse of 550kg. Will this leave me enough umph to get up hills etc? And does the fact my tow bar is detachable impact on this?


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## ROG (7 September 2020)

RHM said:



			Quick question - does is matter if you are towing to the max capacity of your car? My RAV4 has a tow capacity of 1650kg and I am looking at getting a Bateson lightweight trailer which has unladen weight of 675kg, for travelling one horse of 550kg. Will this leave me enough umph to get up hills etc? And does the fact my tow bar is detachable impact on this?
		
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If it is a factory fitted towbar then that is ok
675+550=1250 so well under the max 1650
If it does not go up hills at 1650 then sue the manufacturer
Are you towing under B or BE licence?


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## RHM (7 September 2020)

ROG said:



			If it is a factory fitted towbar then that is ok
675+550=1250 so well under the max 1650
If it does not go up hills at 1650 then sue the manufacturer
Are you towing under B or BE licence?
		
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Thanks so much for this! Yes it’s factory fitted and it’s a B so will need the trailer down plating I presume?


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## ROG (7 September 2020)

RHM said:



			Thanks so much for this! Yes it’s factory fitted and it’s a B so will need the trailer down plating I presume?
		
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What is the GVW of the RAV4 ?


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## ownedbyaconnie (7 September 2020)

Very basic question but I can't seem to find an answer online.  I will be doing B+E test, when I'm working out what weight I'm towing (looking at VW Tiguan or Audi Q5 so about 2,400-2,500 tow capacity, I know they vary but I will be getting the specific model that tows the most!) do I include people and tack that will be in the car? Or is it just what is in the trailer?


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## ROG (7 September 2020)

ownedbyaconnie said:



			Very basic question but I can't seem to find an answer online.  I will be doing B+E test, when I'm working out what weight I'm towing (looking at VW Tiguan or Audi Q5 so about 2,400-2,500 tow capacity, I know they vary but I will be getting the specific model that tows the most!) do I include people and tack that will be in the car? Or is it just what is in the trailer?
		
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I hope you do not have people in the trailer !!!!!
this link lists a few RAV4s so scroll down ans see if yours is there
https://media.toyota.co.uk/wp-conte...0120221MTOYOTARAV4TECHNICALSPECIFICATIONS.pdf


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## ownedbyaconnie (7 September 2020)

ROG said:



			I hope you do not have people in the trailer !!!!!
this link lists a few RAV4s so scroll down ans see if yours is there
https://media.toyota.co.uk/wp-conte...0120221MTOYOTARAV4TECHNICALSPECIFICATIONS.pdf

Click to expand...

Depends what OH has done to wind me up I guess   thanks for speedy answer!


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## ROG (7 September 2020)

was yours in that list?


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## RHM (7 September 2020)

ROG said:



			What is the GVW of the RAV4 ?
		
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It is 2,215 kg, mine is the Toyota RAV4 2.5 VVT-i Hybrid Dynamic AWD model.


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## ROG (7 September 2020)

RHM said:



			It is 2,215 kg, mine is the Toyota RAV4 2.5 VVT-i Hybrid Dynamic AWD model.
		
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Many trailer manufacturers can only down plate to exact 100s such as 1100 1200 1300 etc
This could be an issue on a B licence with your 2215 GVW because you could be restricted to a 1200 trailer down plate which only leaves 525 for the max trailer load


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## RHM (7 September 2020)

ROG said:



			Many trailer manufacturers can only down plate to exact 100s such as 1100 1200 1300 etc
This could be an issue on a B licence with your 2215 GVW because you could be restricted to a 1200 trailer down plate which only leaves 525 for the max trailer load
		
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Oh that will be a issue! Might have to do the test at this rate. Thanks for flagging I had no idea!


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## ROG (7 September 2020)

RHM said:



			Oh that will be a issue! Might have to do the test at this rate. Thanks for flagging I had no idea!
		
Click to expand...

/give Bateson a call to find out their down plate rules because many are different


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## SatansLittleHelper (22 September 2020)

I still don't really understand all of the towing jargon so I'm hoping I have this right...

I have a Ford Galaxy that weighs 1728kg.
It's towing capacity is 2000kg.
I 'think I have read that the vehicle shouldn't tow more than 85% of It's own weight..???
85% of It's own weight is 1468kg.....is this the amount I can legally and safely tow with this car..???
Car is a diesel auto.
Thanks in advance ☺


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## ROG (22 September 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			I still don't really understand all of the towing jargon so I'm hoping I have this right...

I have a Ford Galaxy that weighs 1728kg.
It's towing capacity is 2000kg.
I 'think I have read that the vehicle shouldn't tow more than 85% of It's own weight..???
85% of It's own weight is 1468kg.....is this the amount I can legally and safely tow with this car..???
Car is a diesel auto.
Thanks in advance ☺
		
Click to expand...

85% is for caravans only
Do you have B or BE licence?
If only B licence I need GVW of vehicle not its empty weight


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## SatansLittleHelper (22 September 2020)

ROG said:



			85% is for caravans only
Do you have B or BE licence?
If only B licence I need GVW of vehicle not its empty weight
		
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My friend would be driving it and has a proper licence


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## ROG (22 September 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			My friend would be driving it and has a proper licence  

Click to expand...

Then friend with BE licence can tow up to 2000kg which is the empty weight of the trailer + the load in the trailer
If you have B licence then friend can supervise you driving it - need L plates and tell insurer


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## SatansLittleHelper (22 September 2020)

ROG said:



			Then friend with BE licence can tow up to 2000kg which is the empty weight of the trailer + the load in the trailer
If you have B licence then friend can supervise you driving it - need L plates and tell insurer
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for your help 😁😁😁😁


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## gregory123 (22 September 2020)

Would this combo work?
B+E test (booked) 
Freelander 2, 2.2, 12 plate 
Batesons Deauville trailer 
1 horse - 16.2 approx 650kg


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## ROG (22 September 2020)

gregory123 said:



			Would this combo work?
B+E test (booked)
Freelander 2, 2.2, 12 plate
Batesons Deauville trailer
1 horse - 16.2 approx 650kg
		
Click to expand...

Need more info
If using BE licence then need max towing capacity
If using B licence then need GVW as well
Batesons Deauville trailer = empty 860 and plated MAM 2300


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## gregory123 (22 September 2020)

Vehicle weight 1770kg 
Max towing capacity 1750kg as auto


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## ROG (23 September 2020)

gregory123 said:



			Vehicle weight 1770kg
Max towing capacity 1750kg as auto
		
Click to expand...

Is 1770 the empty weight? - if yes then I need GVW
What licence is being used - B or B+E?


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## gregory123 (23 September 2020)

Sorry. New to this. The GVW would be 1920kg and could you tell me about both licences - although B+E Test and lessons booked. Thanks!


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## ROG (23 September 2020)

gregory123 said:



			Sorry. New to this. The GVW would be 1920kg and could you tell me about both licences - although B+E Test and lessons booked. Thanks!
		
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INFO so far .....
Car GVW 1920
1 horse - approx 650kg
Batesons Deauville trailer = empty 860 and plated MAM 2300

650 + 860 = 1510 
You can tow a trailer with that vehicle on a B licence providing the trailer is not plated at more than 1580kg MAM

I called Bateson on 0161 426 0500 and you can get the trailer down plated from 2300 to 1580 so it is worth a call - they will inform you how to do it and the cost involved is £10

No need for B+E test if you do that


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## DaisyO (5 October 2020)

I am completely lost when it comes to towing rules, so hopefully you can help! (not decided on which car to buy yet, but if it could tow that would be a bonus!)

I'm not sure I can answer all of your questions, but I know the following.. BE license held, Car kerbweight is 1526, towing capacity is 2000KG, would be towing an IW HB506 and one 500kg horse. 

From what I (think) I know, this wouldn't be legal? Or at the least the weight of the trailer & horse would be too close to the vehicle weight? 

Help??


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## ROG (5 October 2020)

DaisyO said:



			I am completely lost when it comes to towing rules, so hopefully you can help! (not decided on which car to buy yet, but if it could tow that would be a bonus!)

I'm not sure I can answer all of your questions, but I know the following.. BE license held, Car kerbweight is 1526, towing capacity is 2000KG, would be towing an IW HB506 and one 500kg horse.

From what I (think) I know, this wouldn't be legal? Or at the least the weight of the trailer & horse would be too close to the vehicle weight?

Help?? 

Click to expand...

IW HB506 = 920 empty
That means with a 2000 max tow you can load 1080 into the trailer
The IW HB506 is plated at 2600 but you are limited to 2000 total actual weight due to the max tow for the vehicle
No need to down plate the trailer - you just have 600 trailer capacity you cannot use


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## DaisyO (5 October 2020)

ROG said:



			IW HB506 = 920 empty
That means with a 2000 max tow you can load 1080 into the trailer
The IW HB506 is plated at 2600 but you are limited to 2000 total actual weight due to the max tow for the vehicle
No need to down plate the trailer - you just have 600 trailer capacity you cannot use
		
Click to expand...


Thank you for such a quick response! That's really helpful.


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## lauraheads (6 October 2020)

Hi I just want to check ....
Looking at a Bateson derby 675kg to travel one horse 650kg with no partition in ( 75kg). So with tack / hay/ water I'd be looking to downplate to ideally 1350kg or 1400kg

So from what I have read am I correct in thinking

1. I ideally want a to tow a max of 85% of the kerbweight so I need a car around 1750kg

2. That the gross vehicle weight would have to be a maximum of 2100kg

(Gross weight of car and trailer must be 3500kg or under?)


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## ROG (6 October 2020)

lauraheads said:



			Hi I just want to check ....
Looking at a Bateson derby 675kg to travel one horse 650kg with no partition in ( 75kg). So with tack / hay/ water I'd be looking to downplate to ideally 1350kg or 1400kg

So from what I have read am I correct in thinking

1. I ideally want a to tow a max of 85% of the kerbweight so I need a car around 1750kg

2. That the gross vehicle weight would have to be a maximum of 2100kg

(Gross weight of car and trailer must be 3500kg or under?)
		
Click to expand...

85% is for caravans and not any other sort of trailer so ignore that bit
The rest you have spot on
Bateson have told me that they can down plate to any figure so if you got a vehicle that is 2125 GVW they can downplate to 1375 for example


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## lauraheads (6 October 2020)

ROG said:



			85% is for caravans and not any other sort of trailer so ignore that bit
The rest you have spot on
Bateson have told me that they can down plate to any figure so if you got a vehicle that is 2125 GVW they can downplate to 1375 for example
		
Click to expand...

Fab thank you


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## Widgeon (12 October 2020)

Hello all (apologies if this is the wrong place for this question) - I have a few question about trailer hire - if anyone can answer I'd be very grateful. So, if I hire a trailer;

- does the hire company cover insurance of the actual trailer itself, i.e. damage to the trailer?
- does my insurance cover me for damage to others while towing a trailer? (presume this may vary between policies?)
- does my breakdown cover cover me when towing? (again, I will check policy)
- do I need additional recovery cover for my horse if I broke down while towing?

I should add, I won't be going very far, but I'd like to know where I stand on all these things. Obviously they may vary between insurance providers but presumably the majority are similar? I'll check my insurance documents. And is there anything I've forgotten?


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## ROG (12 October 2020)

Widgeon said:



			Hello all (apologies if this is the wrong place for this question) - I have a few question about trailer hire - if anyone can answer I'd be very grateful. So, if I hire a trailer;

1- does the hire company cover insurance of the actual trailer itself, i.e. damage to the trailer?
2- does my insurance cover me for damage to others while towing a trailer? (presume this may vary between policies?)
3- does my breakdown cover cover me when towing? (again, I will check policy)
4- do I need additional recovery cover for my horse if I broke down while towing?

I should add, I won't be going very far, but I'd like to know where I stand on all these things. Obviously they may vary between insurance providers but presumably the majority are similar? I'll check my insurance documents. And is there anything I've forgotten?
		
Click to expand...

1- Ask them
2- call your insurer
3- as 2
4- as 2
As all your questions will be specific to the policies involved then those are the only answers that I can give


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## Widgeon (12 October 2020)

ROG said:



			1- Ask them
2- call your insurer
3- as 2
4- as 2
As all your questions will be specific to the policies involved then those are the only answers that I can give
		
Click to expand...

Ok, judging by that answer this probably was the wrong place to post this, sorry. I was really after an idea of how other people sort these things out - I can't be making four separate phone calls every time I want to hire a trailer - at the moment it takes around half an hour just to get through to my insurance and breakdown providers!


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## ROG (12 October 2020)

Widgeon said:



			Ok, judging by that answer this probably was the wrong place to post this, sorry. I was really after an idea of how other people sort these things out - I can't be making four separate phone calls every time I want to hire a trailer - at the moment it takes around half an hour just to get through to my insurance and breakdown providers!
		
Click to expand...

2 calls not 4


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## Bigfoxtrot (15 October 2020)

ROG said:



			With a GVW of 2250 that leaves you a max plated MAM for a trailer of 1250
A 401 is just under 770 ish empty so lets say 800 which leaves 450 for the horse - is your horse heavier than 450kg?

If horse within 450 then then the 401 can be down plated from 1600 to 1250
		
Click to expand...

 Hi ROG 
I have my B+E 
Heres my vehicle vin
1830kg
3080kg
1- 975 kg
2- 940 kg
Here’s  my trailer plate 
Gross 1500 kg
Unladen weight 650kg 
Looking to tow a pony weighing 400kg 

please help


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## ROG (15 October 2020)

Bigfoxtrot said:



			Hi ROG
I have my B+E
Heres my vehicle vin
1830kg
3080kg
1- 975 kg
2- 940 kg
Here’s  my trailer plate
Gross 1500 kg
Unladen weight 650kg
Looking to tow a pony weighing 400kg

please help
		
Click to expand...

3080-1830=1250 so the maximum towing capacity is 1250 UNLESS stated otherwise on the V5 keepers doc
650+400=1050 so you are towing 1050
You have 200 more load weight available

This combination is also legal using a B licence because 1830+1500=3330 so under the 3500 B tow limit


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## Bigfoxtrot (15 October 2020)

ROG said:



			3080-1830=1250 so the maximum towing capacity is 1250 UNLESS stated otherwise on the V5 keepers doc
650+400=1050 so you are towing 1050
You have 200 more load weight available

This combination is also legal using a B licence because 1830+1500=3330 so under the 3500 B tow limit
		
Click to expand...

Thankyou Rog 
 Massive help 
All the best


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## Fern007 (17 October 2020)

ROG please could I have your help and opinion. OH is looking at a 2008 freelander 2 2.2 td4 gs. Lovely looking vehicle but I need it to tow.
Trailer is a 505 classic. Tow capic8of vehicle is 2000kg.
Horse weighs approx 600 kg.
Only ever travel one horse without partition. I passed my test befor 1997.


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## ROG (17 October 2020)

Fern007 said:



			ROG please could I have your help and opinion. OH is looking at a 2008 freelander 2 2.2 td4 gs. Lovely looking vehicle but I need it to tow.
Trailer is a 505 classic. Tow capic8of vehicle is 2000kg.
Horse weighs approx 600 kg.
Only ever travel one horse without partition. I passed my test befor 1997.
		
Click to expand...

I think the 505 is 900 empty
900+600=1500 leaving you with 500 to spare in the trailer with a 2000 tow max


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## Fern007 (17 October 2020)

ROG said:



			I think the 505 is 900 empty
900+600=1500 leaving you with 500 to spare in the trailer with a 2000 tow max
		
Click to expand...

So would be well within limits. But what's your opinion on the freelander for towing. Reviews vary from horrendous to fantastic !!


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## ROG (17 October 2020)

Fern007 said:



			But what's your opinion on the freelander for towing. Reviews vary from horrendous to fantastic !!
		
Click to expand...

Not my field of expertise


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## Willow1306 (19 October 2020)

Considering changing my car and suspect it may be possible to get a vehicle that I can tow legally tow 1 horse with, despite not having done my trailer test...

Any recommendations on a good vehicle + trailer combination for somebody without a B+E license for towing 1 x 550kg horse. Would need to be a relatively economical every day car, not just tow car. 

Other option is to keep my existing car and buy a cheap 3.5t horsebox, but would thinking the car + trailer may be more economical.


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## ROG (19 October 2020)

Willow1306 said:



			Considering changing my car and suspect it may be possible to get a vehicle that I can tow legally tow 1 horse with, despite not having done my trailer test...

Any recommendations on a good vehicle + trailer combination for somebody without a B+E license for towing 1 x 550kg horse. Would need to be a relatively economical every day car, not just tow car.

Other option is to keep my existing car and buy a cheap 3.5t horsebox, but would thinking the car + trailer may be more economical.
		
Click to expand...

Try this but there are many more examples - 
Skoda Octavia 4x4
GVW 2100
Max tow 2000

Bateson Derby trailer
MAM 1700 but can be down plated to 1500 for a tenner and a bit of work changing the plates
Empty 675
At 1500 minus 675 = max trailer load of 825 (your horse 550)


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## TheHairyOne (20 October 2020)

Ive been looking at vehicles to replace the freelander 1 I tow with atm (when the car is working) on just a B. The 2l Seat Ateca 4WD is 2100kg GVW and can tow 2000kg which would work with my set up which is a downplated (to 1400kg) Ifor 403 with a 600kg horse. Not a recommendation, just a more modern car option which normally is better fuel economy!


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## Willow1306 (20 October 2020)

Thanks for your suggestions - that gives me a great starting point!


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## billybo-95 (20 October 2020)

Hello! ROG just wondering if you can help me!

I have 2 scenarios I would be grateful for your help with clarifying please! (looking at buying either of the cars)

Scenario 1...
B Licence
Skoda Octavia
Kerb Weight - 1400kg
GVW - 1985kg
Towing Capacity - 1400kg
Unladen Trailer - 750kg
Gross Trailer Weight - 1600kg
Horse - 500kg
Other than getting the trailer downplated to say 1300kg, am I correct that this set up is legal?

Scenario 2...
B licence
Ford Kuga
Kerb Weight - 1539kg
GVW - 2250kg
Towing Capacity - 1900kg
Same trailer weights
I assume this is not legal as the GVW plus towing capacity exceeds 3500kg at 4150kg? Or am I wrong?

Thanks for your help!


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## ROG (20 October 2020)

billybo-95 said:



			Hello! ROG just wondering if you can help me!

I have 2 scenarios I would be grateful for your help with clarifying please! (looking at buying either of the cars)

Scenario 1...
B Licence
Skoda Octavia
Kerb Weight - 1400kg
GVW - 1985kg
Towing Capacity - 1400kg
Unladen Trailer - 750kg
Gross Trailer Weight - 1600kg
Horse - 500kg
Other than getting the trailer downplated to say 1300kg, am I correct that this set up is legal?

Scenario 2...
B licence
Ford Kuga
Kerb Weight - 1539kg
GVW - 2250kg
Towing Capacity - 1900kg
Same trailer weights
I assume this is not legal as the GVW plus towing capacity exceeds 3500kg at 4150kg? Or am I wrong?

Thanks for your help!
		
Click to expand...

1 - Down plate to 1500 not 1300 but due to max tow of 1400 can only load trailer with 650

2 - down plate trailer to 1250 but that only leaves 500 for trailer load which is VERY tight


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## billybo-95 (20 October 2020)

ROG said:



			1 - Down plate to 1500 not 1300 but due to max tow of 1400 can only load trailer with 650

2 - down plate trailer to 1250 but that only leaves 500 for trailer load which is VERY tight
		
Click to expand...


Sorry I am confused now...with option 1...isn't 1500 over the tow capacity of 1400? So doesnt it need to be 1400 or less?

Thanks


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## ROG (21 October 2020)

billybo-95 said:



			Sorry I am confused now...with option 1...isn't 1500 over the tow capacity of 1400? So doesnt it need to be 1400 or less?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

There is no law or rule which states the MAM of a trailer cannot be more than the towing capacity of the towing vehicle - some internet myths say differently !

Legal example
Vehicle towing capacity 1200
Trailer MAM 3500
Trailer empty 1000
Max load for trailer 200


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## kidsandponies (21 October 2020)

Hi ROG

Please may you help me? I have completely tied myself up in knots going round and round in circles with this, I just cannot get my head around it and what all the numbers mean (and my husband is just confusing me even more!!). 

I have a Honda CRV Black Edition, 2015 model (diesel) and am looking to tow a Bateson Deauville trailer which has a gross weight of 2300kg, unladen weight of 860kg.

I would be looking to put two squirty ponies on there, each weighing approximately 300kg.

I assumed I would have to take my B+E and actually have an assessment lesson booked (the training centre wanted to book me in for a two day course with test at the end but having never towed before I was hesitant as didn’t think this would be enough)!

A friend has now said that if I only tow the ponies and nothing heavier I won’t have to do my test (although I think I still will just for peace of mind). I could kick myself, if I had pulled my finger out and started driving when I turned 17 I would have passed pre ‘97!

Please could you advise if legally, I do need to do my test.

Many thanks


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## ROG (22 October 2020)

kidsandponies said:



			Hi ROG

Please may you help me? I have completely tied myself up in knots going round and round in circles with this, I just cannot get my head around it and what all the numbers mean (and my husband is just confusing me even more!!).

I have a Honda CRV Black Edition, 2015 model (diesel) and am looking to tow a Bateson Deauville trailer which has a gross weight of 2300kg, unladen weight of 860kg.

I would be looking to put two squirty ponies on there, each weighing approximately 300kg.

I assumed I would have to take my B+E and actually have an assessment lesson booked (the training centre wanted to book me in for a two day course with test at the end but having never towed before I was hesitant as didn’t think this would be enough)!

A friend has now said that if I only tow the ponies and nothing heavier I won’t have to do my test (although I think I still will just for peace of mind). I could kick myself, if I had pulled my finger out and started driving when I turned 17 I would have passed pre ‘97!

Please could you advise if legally, I do need to do my test.

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

I need the GVW of your Honda then I can give you a definitive answer


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## ROG (22 October 2020)

kidsandponies said:



			I have a Honda CRV Black Edition, 2015 model (diesel) and am looking to tow a Bateson Deauville trailer which has a gross weight of 2300kg, unladen weight of 860kg.

I would be looking to put two squirty ponies on there, each weighing approximately 300kg.

Please could you advise if legally, I do need to do my test.
		
Click to expand...

Working backwards without the GVW ...
300+300+900(860+) = 1500
Down plating the trailer from 2300 to 1500 leaves a max GVW of 2000 for the vehicle to keep within B licence towing laws


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## kidsandponies (22 October 2020)

ROG said:



			Working backwards without the GVW ...
300+300+900(860+) = 1500
Down plating the trailer from 2300 to 1500 leaves a max GVW of 2000 for the vehicle to keep within B licence towing laws
		
Click to expand...

Thank you so much ROG, I have tried to find the plate on the car, I’ve looked on both pillars driver and passenger side, in the foot wells and under the bonnet and just cannot see it - I will ask my husband to look when he gets home, it must be there somewhere but I cannot believe I am being so blind as to not find it.

So, am I right in thinking that if we down plate the trailer I would be within towing laws?

I am sorry, I can’t quite believe how difficult I am finding this!


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## ROG (22 October 2020)

kidsandponies said:



			Thank you so much ROG, I have tried to find the plate on the car, I’ve looked on both pillars driver and passenger side, in the foot wells and under the bonnet and just cannot see it - I will ask my husband to look when he gets home, it must be there somewhere but I cannot believe I am being so blind as to not find it.

So, am I right in thinking that if we down plate the trailer I would be within towing laws?

I am sorry, I can’t quite believe how difficult I am finding this!
		
Click to expand...

Do you have the V5 DVLA keepers doc ?


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## kidsandponies (22 October 2020)

ROG said:



			Do you have the V5 DVLA keepers doc ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I have that! If I can work out how to attach a file I can send a picture if that helps?

I am sorry to be such a pain!

*edited to add picture (hope it works!)*


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## ROG (22 October 2020)

kidsandponies said:



			Yes, I have that! If I can work out how to attach a file I can send a picture if that helps?

I am sorry to be such a pain!

*edited to add picture (hope it works!)*
		
Click to expand...

Max permissible mass = 2200kg = GVW
With a GVW of 2200 the max plated MAM the trailer can be is 1300

You could get a Bateson Derby mare & foal trailer for your 2 x 300kg horses
That can be down plated to 1300 and is 675 empty leaving you with a max trailer load of 625kg
Otherwise its the B+E test needed or an expensive vehicle change to something with a GVW of no more than 2000


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## kidsandponies (22 October 2020)

ROG said:



			Max permissible mass = 2200kg = GVW
With a GVW of 2200 the max plated MAM the trailer can be is 1300

You could get a Bateson Derby mare & foal trailer for your 2 x 300kg horses
That can be down plated to 1300 and is 675 empty leaving you with a max trailer load of 625kg
Otherwise its the B+E test needed or an expensive vehicle change to something with a GVW of no more than 2000
		
Click to expand...

Thank you so much ROG!  I am going to continue to do my trailer test (and pray I don’t fall apart under test conditions).  For peace of mind I would be more confident with some lessons before I tow and I will then be covered when the children eventually need bigger ponies!

I really appreciate the time you’ve put into this.


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## ROG (22 October 2020)

kidsandponies said:



			Thank you so much ROG!  I am going to continue to do my trailer test (and pray I don’t fall apart under test conditions).  For peace of mind I would be more confident with some lessons before I tow and I will then be covered when the children eventually need bigger ponies!

I really appreciate the time you’ve put into this.
		
Click to expand...

That is why I am on this site
If you can get some L plate practice in by having a supervising driver sit next to you on the road plus do lots of private ground reversing then the cost of doing B+E will come right down
Supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they actually drive it
Supervising driving needs to be over age 21 and have held B+E for at least 3 years so it could be your 100 year old neighbour - seriously


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## WelshHoarder (1 November 2020)

Hi ROG

Can I call on your expertise? I keep looking at this, and I have all sorts of numbers on scraps of paper, but still no clearer as to what we can actually tow

Husband has B+E licence (held since 1992)
Car is a 2015 2.2 Diesel Kia Sorento - Automatic
Kerb weight I believe is 1953kg
GVW is 2560kg
Braked towing capacity is 2000kg (750kg unbraked)

We’re looking to buy a trailer to take son’s pony out and about to stop relying on friends/transporters - she’s a fairly chunky 13.2 Welsh C, I haven’t had a weight tape on her yet though...

He’s eyeing up the HB506/511 but I have no idea if this set up would be legal, and I’ve ended up completely confusing myself! Unladen weights are 920kg/1000kg, but max gross weights of the trailers are 2600kg/2700kg.

Can you work out what we should actually be going out to look for before he goes too far down the path of wanting someone he can’t have? do we need to be looking for something smaller/older/lighter?

(Just praying I haven’t just talked him into having a tow bar fitted for nothing!)


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## ROG (1 November 2020)

WelshHoarder said:



			Hi ROG

Can I call on your expertise? I keep looking at this, and I have all sorts of numbers on scraps of paper, but still no clearer as to what we can actually tow

Husband has B+E licence (held since 1992)
Car is a 2015 2.2 Diesel Kia Sorento - Automatic
Kerb weight I believe is 1953kg
GVW is 2560kg
Braked towing capacity is 2000kg (750kg unbraked)

We’re looking to buy a trailer to take son’s pony out and about to stop relying on friends/transporters - she’s a fairly chunky 13.2 Welsh C, I haven’t had a weight tape on her yet though...

He’s eyeing up the HB506/511 but I have no idea if this set up would be legal, and I’ve ended up completely confusing myself! Unladen weights are 920kg/1000kg, but max gross weights of the trailers are 2600kg/2700kg.

Can you work out what we should actually be going out to look for before he goes too far down the path of wanting someone he can’t have? do we need to be looking for something smaller/older/lighter?

(Just praying I haven’t just talked him into having a tow bar fitted for nothing!)
		
Click to expand...

I will extract the relevant bits 
B+E licemce
Max tow 2000
If trailer empty at 1000 then the max you can load in it is 1000
If trailer empty at 920 then the max you can load in it is 1080

Trailer plated at 2600/2700 is of no relevance because you are limited by the lower 2000 max tow limit
No law or rule to down plate


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## WelshHoarder (1 November 2020)

ROG you’re an absolute star - so in theory we‘re fine with either (by the time we need to tow more than madam we’ll have upgraded the car), and I don’t need to worry about the trailer platings - it’s just a case of sticking to the 2000kg max tow weight?

Think I was just getting so confused with all the licence types and different bits of information!


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## ROG (1 November 2020)

WelshHoarder said:



			..... and I don’t need to worry about the trailer platings - it’s just a case of sticking to the 2000kg max tow weight?
		
Click to expand...

Yes


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## WelshHoarder (1 November 2020)

ROG said:



			Yes
		
Click to expand...

Perfect, thank you again for your time and expertise


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## laurinski (4 November 2020)

Hi ROG, 

Apologies I suspect this has been asked many times but I'm getting myself in a muddle.

I did my B+E to enable me to tow last year, we are looking for a car at the moment that will double up as a family car (trailer will be ifor 510 with one 600kg horse for now). Please can you clarify the legal limits? 
- is it actually just the max tow weight that is the important number? 
- does the weight on the plate on the trailer have a bearing on what is legal for the towing vehicle? (I have seen things saying with the B+E i would need a car that is top end of the max tow weight)
- does the kerb weight of the car have to be more than the weight of the trailer (+ load) to be safe?
Is there anything else really important that I need to look at on the car specs?

Many thanks


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## ROG (4 November 2020)

laurinski said:



			Hi ROG,

Apologies I suspect this has been asked many times but I'm getting myself in a muddle.

I did my B+E to enable me to tow last year, we are looking for a car at the moment that will double up as a family car (trailer will be ifor 510 with one 600kg horse for now). Please can you clarify the legal limits?
- is it actually just the max tow weight that is the important number?
- does the weight on the plate on the trailer have a bearing on what is legal for the towing vehicle? (I have seen things saying with the B+E i would need a car that is top end of the max tow weight)
- does the kerb weight of the car have to be more than the weight of the trailer (+ load) to be safe?
Is there anything else really important that I need to look at on the car specs?

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

Either max tow or trailer plated MAM determines the max - use the lower of the two
A car with a max tow of say 2000 can tow a trailer plated at 3500 and is 1000 empty - the max load in that case is 1000
A car with a max tow of 3500 with a trailer plated at 2500 and is 1000 empty = the max load in that case is 1500
Kerb weight has no bearing but in most cases it is safer to have the towing vehicle heavier than the trailer although some vehicle are designed to do the opposite


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## laurinski (4 November 2020)

Thank you so much ROG, there is so much conflicting information on the internet. Really appreciate your time in replying


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## ROG (11 November 2020)

TRAILER REVERSING GAME using a caravan = https://www.gamesloon.com/free-racing-17/parking-games-122/caravan-trailer-parking-33235.html
May only be good until end of this year as it uses adobe flash player

Good free fun!


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## RRM0820 (17 November 2020)

Hello, 

I'm looking for recommendations for a suitable weight vehicle to pull one horse in a (downplated) Cheval Liberte 1003XL? The vehicle and trailer horse combination needs to be within the limits for a standard licence. Looking for a 2nd hand older vehicle.

I have taken trailer lessons but unfortunately failed the test due to not noticing a speed limit sign early enough :-( passed my reverse etc with flying colours so will retake the test eventually when centres re-open after covid.

Thank you


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## ROG (17 November 2020)

RRM0820 said:



			Hello,

I'm looking for recommendations for a suitable weight vehicle to pull one horse in a (downplated) Cheval Liberte 1003XL? The vehicle and trailer horse combination needs to be within the limits for a standard licence. Looking for a 2nd hand older vehicle.

I have taken trailer lessons but unfortunately failed the test due to not noticing a speed limit sign early enough :-( passed my reverse etc with flying colours so will retake the test eventually when centres re-open after covid.

Thank you
		
Click to expand...

If for example your trailer is now plated at say 1300 then you need a vehicle with a max GVW of 2200
One vehicle that comes to mind is perhaps an older Skoda Octavia 4x4 but there are loads of others


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## RRM0820 (18 November 2020)

ROG said:



			If for example your trailer is now plated at say 1300 then you need a vehicle with a max GVW of 2200
One vehicle that comes to mind is perhaps an older Skoda Octavia 4x4 but there are loads of others
		
Click to expand...


Thanks for the reply. Im struggling to get correct info on GVW online as most seem to show curb weight. Are there any small 4x4's do you know if a Nissan Xtrail or a Freelander 2 would work?


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## ROG (18 November 2020)

RRM0820 said:



			Thanks for the reply. Im struggling to get correct info on GVW online as most seem to show curb weight. Are there any small 4x4's do you know if a Nissan Xtrail or a Freelander 2 would work?
		
Click to expand...

Nissan Xtrail deffo works for many on here with one horse and lightweight down plated trailer


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## Peachespony (20 November 2020)

Hi Rog, 
I was wondering if you might be able to advise- I am utterly clueless and becoming so confused with all the numbers. I have copied the info from the v5 I think you need:
Max permissible mass 2505
Mass in service 1765
Tech. permissible max towable mass of trailer, braked 1800
            unbraked 750
I'm hoping to get an ifor 505 trailer and the numbers on the plate are:
2340kg
1 - 1170kg
2 - 1170kg

How much extra weight could I carry with that combination? I'm hoping I could transport 2 ponies, but worried I'll only have capacity for 1.

Many thanks


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## ROG (20 November 2020)

Peachespony said:



			Hi Rog,
I was wondering if you might be able to advise- I am utterly clueless and becoming so confused with all the numbers. I have copied the info from the v5 I think you need:
Max permissible mass 2505
Mass in service 1765
Tech. permissible max towable mass of trailer, braked 1800
            unbraked 750
I'm hoping to get an ifor 505 trailer and the numbers on the plate are:
2340kg
1 - 1170kg
2 - 1170kg

How much extra weight could I carry with that combination? I'm hoping I could transport 2 ponies, but worried I'll only have capacity for 1.

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

You need a B+E licence
1800 max tow limit
Trailer empty 905
1800 minus 905 = 895
max load for trailer = 895
If your 2 ponies weigh more than 895 together then not going to work with that set up


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## Peachespony (20 November 2020)

ROG said:



			You need a B+E licence
1800 max tow limit
Trailer empty 905
1800 minus 905 = 895
max load for trailer = 895
If your 2 ponies weigh more than 895 together then not going to work with that set up
		
Click to expand...

Thats wonderful, thank you so much! 

Just so I can get my head around your calculation, where do you get the 905 from?


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## ROG (20 November 2020)

Peachespony said:



			Thats wonderful, thank you so much!

Just so I can get my head around your calculation, where do you get the 905 from?
		
Click to expand...

http://www.i4hire.co.uk/hb505_two_horse_trailer.html
Plenty of other sites with the same info


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## Peachespony (20 November 2020)

ROG said:



http://www.i4hire.co.uk/hb505_two_horse_trailer.html
Plenty of other sites with the same info
		
Click to expand...

Weight of trailer- gotcha!

Many thanks again


----------



## BallyRoanBaubles (1 December 2020)

Hi can anyone advise on this please? 

When towing do you need 'special' insurance or does your cars insurance cover you? Also is a tow bar classed as a modification on a car?


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## ROG (1 December 2020)

BallyRoanBaubles said:



			Hi can anyone advise on this please?

When towing do you need 'special' insurance or does your cars insurance cover you? Also is a tow bar classed as a modification on a car?
		
Click to expand...

Inform insurer you have towbar fitted and will be towing - usually no increase in premium 
Trailer needs separate insurance if you want it covered = your choice as not legally needed


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## BallyRoanBaubles (1 December 2020)

ROG said:



			Inform insurer you have towbar fitted and will be towing - usually no increase in premium
Trailer needs separate insurance if you want it covered = your choice as not legally needed
		
Click to expand...

Thank you ROG  

Can you recommend a tow car that can tow 2200-2500kg ish, full towing license so no restrictions there. Will be my everyday car for commuting so needs to be reliable and goodish on fuel. So far my thought are ford kuga, Vw Tiguan, anyone tow with these combinations?


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## ROG (1 December 2020)

BallyRoanBaubles said:



			Thank you ROG 

Can you recommend a tow car that can tow 2200-2500kg ish, full towing license so no restrictions there. Will be my everyday car for commuting so needs to be reliable and goodish on fuel. So far my thought are ford kuga, Vw Tiguan, anyone tow with these combinations?
		
Click to expand...

Not my bag - suggest asking on main forum


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## Dwhalley78185 (4 December 2020)

Hi good morning ROG I couldn’t find how to contact you 
I’m looking for some help Iv been given a trailer from my friend it’s a HB505 I don’t have a B+E licence or the money at the moment to sit one.
I see there is ways round this as my pony only weighs say 300kg max can I tow with a smaller vehicle to get it under 3500kg like a Estate or a kuga 
What cars would you recommend for the job?
and am I better to get the trailer down plated I’m not sure on the MAM I’m going to look today can I do this ?
@ROG


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## Dwhalley78185 (4 December 2020)




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## ROG (4 December 2020)

Dwhalley78185 said:



			Hi good morning ROG I couldn’t find how to contact you
I’m looking for some help Iv been given a trailer from my friend it’s a HB505 I don’t have a B+E licence or the money at the moment to sit one.
I see there is ways round this as my pony only weighs say 300kg max can I tow with a smaller vehicle to get it under 3500kg like a Estate or a kuga
What cars would you recommend for the job?
and am I better to get the trailer down plated I’m not sure on the MAM I’m going to look today can I do this ?
@ROG

Click to expand...

HB 505 is 905 empty
Pony weighs  300
Need trail down plated to say 1300 to allow wiggle room for weight
Then need a vehicle which has a max GVW of 2200 and at least a max tow weight of 1300 (most are much more than that)

Contact IW to get trailer down plated from 2340 to 1300
You remove original plate then send it with money (about £50 I think for IW) to IW
IW send you new plate to fix on
Needs metal bit with drill and pop rivet gun


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## RRM0820 (11 December 2020)

Hi ROG, 

Wondering if you can advise the suitability of the below combo, will be use to predominantly carry one 16hh horse around 550kg but occasionally take a friend with a horse of a slightly smaller build around 525kg too

I passed my B+E test on Monday 

Trailer Bateson Ascot 
Gross weight 2300
Unladen 925

Car 09 Kia Sorrento 2.5 Manual
The 4 numbers on the VIN plate are as follows:
2640
5640
1-1350
1-1500

Thank you!


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## ROG (11 December 2020)

RRM0820 said:



			Hi ROG,

Wondering if you can advise the suitability of the below combo, will be use to predominantly carry one 16hh horse around 550kg but occasionally take a friend with a horse of a slightly smaller build around 525kg too

I passed my B+E test on Monday 

Trailer Bateson Ascot
Gross weight 2300
Unladen 925

Car 09 Kia Sorrento 2.5 Manual
The 4 numbers on the VIN plate are as follows:
2640
5640
1-1350
1-1500

Thank you!
		
Click to expand...

With B+E licence
5640 minus 2640 = 3000
3000 is the max weight your trailer and its load can be
2300 is the max the trailer can be when loaded
We go by the 2300 lower number
2300 minus 925 = 1375
1375 is the max that can be loaded into the trailer
550 + 525 horses = 1075
That leaves 300 spare load for the trailer


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## dial3012 (1 January 2021)

ROG said:



			I will extract the relevant bits
B+E licemce
Max tow 2000
If trailer empty at 1000 then the max you can load in it is 1000
If trailer empty at 920 then the max you can load in it is 1080

Trailer plated at 2600/2700 is of no relevance because you are limited by the lower 2000 max tow limit
No law or rule to down plate[/QUOTE
		
Click to expand...


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## dial3012 (1 January 2021)

Hi rig 
Can you help out , i really confused with all the rules but I was being sensible and I am doing my trailer licence test shortly and will hopefully pass, 
Now if I didn’t pass, I would only have a b licence, now I have a Nissan x trail 4x4 with gvw 2090kg, with towing capacity of 2000kg
I will be purchasing a single trailer-mam being 1600kg, unladen 767kg
A horse approximately 500kg 
To my reckoning and understanding these complicated confusing rules as everyone has different ideas combining my mam trailer weight (even though trailer won’t be loaded to that) with my gvw of car I would’ve over the 3,500kg if I didn’t have my b+e licence and therefore I would have to down plate my trailer 

is this right please please help !!
Thank you


----------



## ROG (1 January 2021)

dial3012 said:



			Hi rig
Can you help out , i really confused with all the rules but I was being sensible and I am doing my trailer licence test shortly and will hopefully pass,
Now if I didn’t pass, I would only have a b licence, now I have a Nissan x trail 4x4 with gvw 2090kg, with towing capacity of 2000kg
I will be purchasing a single trailer-mam being 1600kg, unladen 767kg
A horse approximately 500kg
To my reckoning and understanding these complicated confusing rules as everyone has different ideas combining my mam trailer weight (even though trailer won’t be loaded to that) with my gvw of car I would’ve over the 3,500kg if I didn’t have my b+e licence and therefore I would have to down plate my trailer

is this right please please help !!
Thank you
		
Click to expand...

You are spot on
The trailer would need to be down plated to 1400 via contact with the manufacturer (IW in this case I think) which would leave you a max load into the trailer of 633kg (horse only 500 so 133 to spare)


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## dial3012 (1 January 2021)

Thank you as I thought


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## Willow1306 (8 January 2021)

Me again!

Please can you advise if the following would be suitable for towing a lightweight trailer and 500kg thoroughbred on a B license as I still can't get my head around it:

Car spec:
Kerbweight: Min 1450
GVW: 2060
Braked towing limit: 1400

Thank you


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## ROG (8 January 2021)

Willow1306 said:



			Me again!

Please can you advise if the following would be suitable for towing a lightweight trailer and 500kg thoroughbred on a B license as I still can't get my head around it:

Car spec:
Kerbweight: Min 1450
GVW: 2060
Braked towing limit: 1400

Thank you 

Click to expand...

YES - GVW 2060 means you can tow a trailer plated at 1400 (1400 also happens to be your max tow limit so pointless having a plated MAM higher)

Examples
IW HB401/3 Empty 787kg with 1600 MAM down plated to 1400 leaving max trailer load of 633kg
Bateson Derby 675kg empty with 1700 MAM dow plated to 1400 leaving max trailer load of 725kg

About £50 to down plate with IW
About £10 to down plate with Bateson

You contact trailer manufacturer
You remove original plate and send it to manufacturer with money
Manufacturer sends you new plate
You fit new plate


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## Willow1306 (8 January 2021)

Thanks! I've just double checked and the GVW is actually 1980, not 2060. Does that change the outcome?

Sorry!


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## ROG (8 January 2021)

Willow1306 said:



			Thanks! I've just double checked and the GVW is actually 1980, not 2060. Does that change the outcome?

Sorry!
		
Click to expand...

Not really because although the trailer can be plated at 1500 with a 1960 GVW the max tow is only 1400 so if you plate at 1500 you can still only use the max trailer load figures I posted


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## friesianfan69 (15 January 2021)

ROG said:



			I need the car GVW before giving you a definitive answer which will be between 2100 and 2300

post 3000 gives how to get that figure
		
Click to expand...

Hi Again, My hubby wants to buy  me a new car, an Nissan xtrail Tekna Dci 2 litre
Would that still be ok?


----------



## ROG (15 January 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			Hi Again, My hubby wants to buy  me a new car, an Nissan xtrail Tekna Dci 2 litre
Would that still be ok?
		
Click to expand...

I think - not certain for the model you mentioned - that the GVW is just under 2100 so that means you can tow a trailer with a 1400kg MAM on a B licence


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## friesianfan69 (15 January 2021)

ROG said:



			I think - not certain for the model you mentioned - that the GVW is just under 2100 so that means you can tow a trailer with a 1400kg MAM on a B licence
		
Click to expand...

is the gvw inside the drivers door?


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## ROG (15 January 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			is the gvw inside the drivers door?
		
Click to expand...

Can be or under the bonnet 
They like hiding those plates with the 4 numbers on them - top number is GVW - second number is also useful


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## friesianfan69 (16 January 2021)

ROG said:



			I think - not certain for the model you mentioned - that the GVW is just under 2100 so that means you can tow a trailer with a 1400kg MAM on a B licence
		
Click to expand...


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## ROG (16 January 2021)

GVW 2170
Max tow limit 2000
Max plated MAM on a trailer with a B licence is 1330

With a 1330 MAM trailer - 
IW HB401/3 which is 787 empty would be a max trailer load of 543
Bateson Derby which is 695 empty would be a max trailer load of 635


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## friesianfan69 (16 January 2021)

ROG said:



			GVW 2170
Max tow limit 2000
Max plated MAM on a trailer with a B licence is 1330

With a 1330 MAM trailer -
IW HB401/3 which is 787 empty would be a max trailer load of 543
Bateson Derby which is 695 empty would be a max trailer load of 635
		
Click to expand...

I have a 401 , so pony tack etc would have to be 543 max?


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## ROG (16 January 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			I have a 401 , so pony tack etc would have to be 543 max?
		
Click to expand...

If you can get IW to down plate it to 1330 then yes BUT it could be the nearest they can down plate to is 1300 sp max trailer load will be 513 in that situation

Tack could go in boot of car


----------



## friesianfan69 (16 January 2021)

ROG said:



			If you can get IW to down plate it to 1330 then yes BUT it could be the nearest they can down plate to is 1300 sp max trailer load will be 513 in that situation

Tack could go in boot of car
		
Click to expand...

And that car, trailer and pony weight would all be safe to tow?


----------



## ROG (16 January 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			And that car, trailer and pony weight would all be safe to tow?
		
Click to expand...

Nissan X trail towing a trailer that weighs say 750 empty loaded with a 500 horse and 50 tack making 1300 with a vehicle that can tow 2000 is easily safe


----------



## friesianfan69 (16 January 2021)

ROG said:



			Nissan X trail towing a trailer that weighs say 750 empty loaded with a 500 horse and 50 tack making 1300 with a vehicle that can tow 2000 is easily safe
		
Click to expand...

at present its downplaited to 1450, so i need to go down more?
Pony weighs about 440


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## ROG (16 January 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			at present its downplaited to 1450, so i need to go down more?
Pony weighs about 440
		
Click to expand...

Yes
2170 + 1450 = 3620 so 120 over 3500 limit for B licence


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## AyDavey21 (17 January 2021)

Absolutely amazing write up.  Very informative.

Some more details about the B+E driving test too... https://www.trainforgroup.com/about-the-b-plus-e-test


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## ROG (17 January 2021)

AyDavey21 said:



			Absolutely amazing write up.  Very informative.

Some more details about the B+E driving test too... https://www.trainforgroup.com/about-the-b-plus-e-test

Click to expand...

Not happy what they wrote = 
*You can only tow a trailer with a car or van as long as the TOTAL weight of both DOES NOT exceed 3,500kgs / 3.5 tonne.* 
that should read the TOTAL of the plated (MAM+GVW) weights or people will think it means the actual weight when loaded


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## friesianfan69 (18 January 2021)

ROG said:



			Yes
2170 + 1450 = 3620 so 120 over 3500 limit for B licence
		
Click to expand...

Hi Rog can you message me please?


----------



## ROG (18 January 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			Hi Rog can you message me please?
		
Click to expand...

Messaging turned off permanently


----------



## friesianfan69 (18 January 2021)

ROG said:



			Messaging turned off permanently
		
Click to expand...

So 1300 or 1330?


----------



## ROG (19 January 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			So 1300 or 1330?
		
Click to expand...

1330 if trailer manufacturer will do that but settle for 1300 if not


----------



## friesianfan69 (19 January 2021)

Ok Thankyou for your help.
And I’d be totally legal?
What if you are pulled over and weighed? Or does it not work like that?


----------



## ROG (19 January 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			Ok Thankyou for your help.
And I’d be totally legal?
What if you are pulled over and weighed? Or does it not work like that?
		
Click to expand...

Car GVW 2170 + trailer 1330 or 1300 means the total of the plated weights are not over 3500 so legal to tow on a B licence

If you think that either the vehicle or the trailer might be over their respective plated weight limits then you are legally allowed to go to your nearest public weighbridge and have them weighed
If found to be overloaded then you are legally allowed to back to where you loaded them and reduce the excess weight
Unlikely that you will overload either if you know you max load limits and you know the weight of what you are loading


----------



## friesianfan69 (19 January 2021)

ROG said:



			Car GVW 2170 + trailer 1330 or 1300 means the total of the plated weights are not over 3500 so legal to tow on a B licence

If you think that either the vehicle or the trailer might be over their respective plated weight limits then you are legally allowed to go to your nearest public weighbridge and have them weighed
If found to be overloaded then you are legally allowed to back to where you loaded them and reduce the excess weight
Unlikely that you will overload either if you know you max load limits and you know the weight of what you are loading
		
Click to expand...

I see that’s great then, I think we have a local weigh bridge so might go at some point. I think I’m well under though . Thankyou do much for your advice.


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## ROG (19 January 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			I see that’s great then, I think we have a local weigh bridge so might go at some point. I think I’m well under though . Thankyou do much for your advice.
		
Click to expand...

If you do go to a standard weighbridge - the type with the large metal plate that an artic can fit on - then get 3 weights by doing this = no need to unhitch
Drive vehicle onto the plate leaving trailer wheels just before the plate - note weight 1 = vehicle
Now drive forward putting both vehicle and trailer onto plate - note weight 2 = total of both
Now drive forward so rear wheels of vehicle are just off the plate - note weight 3 = trailer
You will find that 1 + 3 will equal 2


----------



## friesianfan69 (19 January 2021)

ROG said:



			If you do go to a standard weighbridge - the type with the large metal plate that an artic can fit on - then get 3 weights by doing this = no need to unhitch
Drive vehicle onto the plate leaving trailer wheels just before the plate - note weight 1 = vehicle
Now drive forward putting both vehicle and trailer onto plate - note weight 2 = total of both
Now drive forward so rear wheels of vehicle are just off the plate - note weight 3 = trailer
You will find that 1 + 3 will equal 2
		
Click to expand...

Ok I will Thankyou, do I have pony to?


----------



## ROG (19 January 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			Ok I will Thankyou, do I have pony to?
		
Click to expand...

Load both vehicle and trailer as though you were going out with them for a hack etc


----------



## zoon (22 February 2021)

Hi ROG

currently have B licence, was planning on B+E but lockdown has put a hold on that, so wondering whether I can tow on my current licence?

I have a 2016 Kia Sportage KX4. This ifo if from a quick google, so I hope correct. Will have to double check plate in car.
Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1600
GVW of the towing vehicle - 2140kg
GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2200
Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 1600
Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 767 (ifor Williams 403) or 750 (cheval liberte touring one)


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## ROG (23 February 2021)

zoon said:



			Hi ROG

currently have B licence, was planning on B+E but lockdown has put a hold on that, so wondering whether I can tow on my current licence?

I have a 2016 Kia Sportage KX4. This ifo if from a quick google, so I hope correct. Will have to double check plate in car.
Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1600
GVW of the towing vehicle - 2140kg
GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 2200
Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 1600
Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 767 (ifor Williams 403) or 750 (cheval liberte touring one)
		
Click to expand...

2140 GVW leaves you 1360 for a trailer MAM
You need to down plate trailer via a call to the manufacturer 
Down plating the trailer to 1300 would leave a max trailer load of 533 for a 403 or 650 for cheval

What weight do you need to load into the trailer?


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## zoon (23 February 2021)

Horse is around 600, so a bit close for my liking. I’ll wait until I can book the test as looks like things are heading back towards normality


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## zoon (23 February 2021)

Actually, looking at the plate inside the vehicle, my particular model is a fair bit heavier than what I said - 2250kg GVW, so wouldn’t work at all


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## Maple_stirrup (28 February 2021)

Hi Rog,

I have a Q5 with a GVW of 2365kg.
Bateson trailer of 860kg unladen and MAM of 2300kg. To tow I’m assuming I would need to hold the B+E License?
Thanks for your time!


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## Maple_stirrup (28 February 2021)

Maple_stirrup said:



			Hi Rog,

I have a Q5 with a GVW of 2365kg.
Bateson trailer of 860kg unladen and MAM of 2300kg. To tow I’m assuming I would need to hold the B+E License?
Thanks for your time!
		
Click to expand...

forgot to mention horse of around 400kg.


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## ROG (1 March 2021)

Maple_stirrup said:



			Hi Rog,

I have a Q5 with a GVW of 2365kg.
Bateson trailer of 860kg unladen and MAM of 2300kg. To tow I’m assuming I would need to hold the B+E License?
Thanks for your time!
		
Click to expand...

Yes you need B+E or L plates under supervision
Supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they drive it


----------



## Maple_stirrup (1 March 2021)

ROG said:



			Yes you need B+E or L plates under supervision
Supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they drive it
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog,
My partner has his Artic License, would I be able to tow a horse on with L plates and him by the side of me for practice under the provisional?


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## ROG (1 March 2021)

Maple_stirrup said:



			Thanks Rog,
My partner has his Artic License, would I be able to tow a horse on with L plates and him by the side of me for practice under the provisional?
		
Click to expand...

if partner has had artic licence for at least 3 years then yes


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## Dwhalley78185 (9 March 2021)

@ROG I have a trailer HB505r I need to down plate it but iforwillams told me I can only down plate to 1400 is this correct, or can I go to 1300 or less as trailer unladen is 905 and pony only 250. 
My partner is driving a Ford connect van with tow capacity of 1500 and GVW of 2245 can I go buy the unladen weight on this of 905 and pony 250 to come under to be able to drive on B licence or what’s the best way round it if there is one.


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## ROG (9 March 2021)

Dwhalley78185 said:



@ROG I have a trailer HB505r I need to down plate it but iforwillams told me I can only down plate to 1400 is this correct, or can I go to 1300 or less as trailer unladen is 905 and pony only 250.
My partner is driving a Ford connect van with tow capacity of 1500 and GVW of 2245 can I go buy the unladen weight on this of 905 and pony 250 to come under to be able to drive on B licence or what’s the best way round it if there is one.
		
Click to expand...

IW are correct as some manufacturers have only specified thier trailers for certain MAM weights such as multiples of 100 whereas Bateson are able to do any weight 

I have just come off the phone with IW and 1400 is the minimum that trailer can be down plated to unfortunately and with that info that trailer is not going to be any good for B towing with a vehicle GVW of 2245

You need a smaller GVW vehicle or a lighter trailer


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## Dwhalley78185 (9 March 2021)

ROG said:



			IW are correct as some manufacturers have only specified thier trailers for certain MAM weights such as multiples of 100 whereas Bateson are able to do any weight

I have just come off the phone with IW and 1400 is the minimum that trailer can be down plated to unfortunately and with that info that trailer is not going to be any good for B towing with a vehicle GVW of 2245

You need a smaller GVW vehicle or a lighter trailer
		
Click to expand...


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## Dwhalley78185 (9 March 2021)

Thanks for the reply @ROG 
I was hoping the overall weight if we was weighted on weight bridge with car unladen trailer weight and horse 3400 would be good enough 🤦🏼‍♀️But Is it all down to what is on the metal plate then rog 
so if I brought a car with gwv 2100 and got the trailer down plated to 1400 is that okey 3500 or do I also need to add the weight of the horse on top too then I’m over again 
Many tanks


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## ROG (9 March 2021)

Dwhalley78185 said:



			Thanks for the reply @ROG 
I was hoping the overall weight if we was weighted on weight bridge with car unladen trailer weight and horse 3400 would be good enough 🤦🏼‍♀️But Is it all down to what is on the metal plate then rog
so if I brought a car with gwv 2100 and got the trailer down plated to 1400 is that okey 3500 or do I also need to add the weight of the horse on top too then I’m over again
Many tanks
		
Click to expand...

2100 + 1400 = 3500 so just ok for B licence towing

Legal B towing example
Vehicle GVW 2100
Vehicle empty 1500
Max vehicle load 600
Trailer MAM 1400
Trailer empty 800
Max trailer load 600


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## Dwhalley78185 (14 March 2021)

Iforwillams want 55+vat for the new down plate is it legal to get your own plate stamped I can get one down for £10 @ROG


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## ROG (14 March 2021)

Dwhalley78185 said:



			Iforwillams want 55+vat for the new down plate is it legal to get your own plate stamped I can get one down for £10 @ROG

Click to expand...

No
A plate must now be registered by law

Bateson charge a tenner - pity you did not have one of theirs!


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## Scottie12345 (17 March 2021)

Hi, I am baffled by this! I am looking for a car and have the trailer, it is a indespension monarque and if I am correct weighs 800kg. I have my B+E license and the horse weighs 450kg I have attached the plates since they just confuse me. So what I am asking is what car is best and what would be the minimum towing limit if the car?


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## ROG (17 March 2021)

Scottie12345 said:



			Hi, I am baffled by this! I am looking for a car and have the trailer, it is a indespension monarque and if I am correct weighs 800kg. I have my B+E license and the horse weighs 450kg I have attached the plates since they just confuse me. So what I am asking is what car is best and what would be the minimum towing limit if the car?
		
Click to expand...

From the internet I get that the trailer is 800kg empty and from your plate it is 2300kg MAM

Where did you get the plates from as you said you attached them ?

You will need a vehicle that can tow at least 1300kg

There are hundreds of vehicles that have at least that tow weight


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## Scottie12345 (17 March 2021)

ROG said:



			From the internet I get that the trailer is 800kg empty and from your plate it is 2300kg MAM

Where did you get the plates from as you said you attached them ?

You will need a vehicle that can tow at least 1300kg

There are hundreds of vehicles that have at least that tow weight
		
Click to expand...

the plates were attached when I got them, typing fast I meant I have attached photos of the plates. Sorry. Thank you so much for the quick reply. I can now get car shopping and know that I will be towing safely


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## ROG (17 March 2021)

Scottie12345 said:



			the plates were attached when I got them, typing fast I meant I have attached photos of the plates. Sorry. Thank you so much for the quick reply. I can now get car shopping and know that I will be towing safely
		
Click to expand...

I did wonder about the plates but that now cleared up

It is easier with a B+E licence as the rules are much easier
Do not exceed the MAM of the trailer
Do not exceed the max tow limit of the vehicle


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## Horseyhattie (18 March 2021)

Hi there! I am trying to work out if my Honda CRV 02 will safely tow my old Bahill pony trailer, with a Dartmoor pony on board. Also would like to know if this can be done on my normal license or if I should go and get my trailer license. 
many thanks for your help!


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## ROG (18 March 2021)

Horseyhattie said:



			Hi there! I am trying to work out if my Honda CRV 02 will safely tow my old Bahill pony trailer, with a Dartmoor pony on board. Also would like to know if this can be done on my normal license or if I should go and get my trailer license.
many thanks for your help!
		
Click to expand...


I need these weights - 
Empty trailer weight
Max plated weight of trailer or if none then the load ratings total of all the tyres
Pony weight
Max vehicle tow weight listed on V5 DVLA keepers doc
GVW of vehicle
Weight plate on vehicle usually hidden in a door frame or under bonnet which has 4 numbers on it - I need the top 2 numbers


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## Horseyhattie (19 March 2021)

Cripes I best get looking! Thankyou for your help. Is it best to go to the weigh bridge to find out my trailer weight?  From looking in my car book thing I think towing weight is 1500? Pony weighs 280 ish. 
will go and try and find all other weights.
Many thanks!


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## ROG (19 March 2021)

Horseyhattie said:



			Cripes I best get looking! Thankyou for your help. Is it best to go to the weigh bridge to find out my trailer weight?  From looking in my car book thing I think towing weight is 1500? Pony weighs 280 ish.
will go and try and find all other weights.
Many thanks!
		
Click to expand...

Does the trailer have a max weight plate on it?


----------



## Horseyhattie (19 March 2021)

ROG said:



			Does the trailer have a max weight plate on it?
		
Click to expand...

Yes it has a plate on the front by the hitch but will need to take a look tomorrow


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## Horseyhattie (21 March 2021)

ROG said:



			Does the trailer have a max weight plate on it?
		
Click to expand...

I have checked the plate and it says min 950 - max 1900. This is more than I thought! My car book says 1500 is max to tow. I forgot to get the numbers from the bonnet!


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## jojo5 (22 March 2021)

Hi are you able to give advice on suitability of either a 3.5t small lorry ( Renault/Fiat/Merc type but box, not the van shapes) or an IFW 506 ( pulled by a Defender) to transport a 16hh Belgian Draft cross weighing around 750 kg. Thanks.


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## ROG (22 March 2021)

jojo5 said:



			Hi are you able to give advice on suitability of either a 3.5t small lorry ( Renault/Fiat/Merc type but box, not the van shapes) or an IFW 506 ( pulled by a Defender) to transport a 16hh Belgian Draft cross weighing around 750 kg. Thanks.
		
Click to expand...

You will get more responses on the main forum


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## ROG (22 March 2021)

Horseyhattie said:



			I have checked the plate and it says min 950 - max 1900. This is more than I thought! My car book says 1500 is max to tow. I forgot to get the numbers from the bonnet!
		
Click to expand...

I assume that will mean it is 950 empty and max MAM of 1900
It will need down plating by Bahill but I think they are no longer trading so that is a no go - unless your car has a GVW of 1600 or less and that is highly unlikely!
Options - drive under B+E rules or get another trailer where the manufacturer is still trading


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## Horseyhattie (22 March 2021)

ROG said:



			I assume that will mean it is 950 empty and max MAM of 1900
It will need down plating by Bahill but I think they are no longer trading so that is a no go - unless your car has a GVW of 1600 or less and that is highly unlikely!
Options - drive under B+E rules or get another trailer where the manufacturer is still trading
		
Click to expand...

Thankyou again. However still a bit confused- what do you mean by drive under B+E rules? If I used a different vehicle is the trailer still ok to tow?


----------



## ROG (22 March 2021)

Horseyhattie said:



			Thankyou again. However still a bit confused- what do you mean by drive under B+E rules? If I used a different vehicle is the trailer still ok to tow?
		
Click to expand...

I mean either with a B+E licence or as a learner under supervision


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## Horseyhattie (22 March 2021)

ROG said:



			I mean either with a B+E licence or as a learner under supervision
		
Click to expand...

Ok Thankyou. Will look to getting proper test and more suitable vehicle. Thankyou so much for all your help.


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## ROG (22 March 2021)

950 empty with 1900 MAM and tow limit of 1500 means you can load a max of 550 into the trailer but under B+E rules


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## Keiley (26 March 2021)

Hi ROG, please can you help,,,
I have B license and Audi Q3 looking to buy an ifor Williams trailer soon
Here are the weights I have found, 
My car has 2 weights 750 and 2000
And a random 505 Iv seen for sale says 920 and 2600
Can I pull something like this or do I need to take the B+E test? 
Thankyou in advance


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## Bob notacob (26 March 2021)

Hi Rog,I have inadvertantly double parked my container ship across the suez canal, Folk are getting a bit miffed. Can you confirm that my B plus E licence was all i needed!


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## ROG (27 March 2021)

Bob notacob said:



			Hi Rog,I have inadvertantly double parked my container ship across the suez canal, Folk are getting a bit miffed. Can you confirm that my B plus E licence was all i needed!
		
Click to expand...

You have failed the test and need to rebook - LOL


----------



## ROG (27 March 2021)

Keiley said:



			Hi ROG, please can you help,,,
I have B license and Audi Q3 looking to buy an ifor Williams trailer soon
Here are the weights I have found,
My car has 2 weights 750 and 2000
And a random 505 Iv seen for sale says 920 and 2600
Can I pull something like this or do I need to take the B+E test?
Thankyou in advance
		
Click to expand...

I need the GVW weight of the Audi to answer your query - Max authorised mass on the V5 doc or the top of the 4 weights listed on the weight plate usually hidden in a door frame or under the bonnet

It is very likely that you will need to look for a lighter trailer such as a IW 401/3 or Bateson Derby etc


----------



## Keiley (27 March 2021)

ROG said:



			I need the GVW weight of the Audi to answer your query - Max authorised mass on the V5 doc or the top of the 4 weights listed on the weight plate usually hidden in a door frame or under the bonnet

It is very likely that you will need to look for a lighter trailer such as a IW 401/3 or Bateson Derby etc
		
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for replying, my car weighs 2205


----------



## ROG (27 March 2021)

Keiley said:



			Thanks so much for replying, my car weighs 2205
		
Click to expand...

With a GVW of 2205 on a B licence then the max trailer MAM you can tow is 1295
A Bateson Derby trailer weighs 675 empty and is plated at 1700 but can be down plated for a tenner via contact with Bateson from 1700 to 1295 leaving a max trailer load of 620kg


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## Keiley (27 March 2021)

ROG said:



			With a GVW of 2205 on a B licence then the max trailer MAM you can tow is 1295
A Bateson Derby trailer weighs 675 empty and is plated at 1700 but can be down plated for a tenner via contact with Bateson from 1700 to 1295 leaving a max trailer load of 620kg
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog, appreciate your help!


----------



## Belacqua (28 March 2021)

Here for the famous towing clinic advice please!

Post '97 B license
Unladen weight of car: 1575
GVW: 2215
Tow capacity: 1650

No idea which bits of that ^ help with my query..

We have one small pony. Is there a lightweight single trailer that we could get that would keep us legal on a B license?

TIA!


----------



## ROG (29 March 2021)

Belacqua said:



			Here for the famous towing clinic advice please!

Post '97 B license
Unladen weight of car: 1575
GVW: 2215
Tow capacity: 1650

No idea which bits of that ^ help with my query..

We have one small pony. Is there a lightweight single trailer that we could get that would keep us legal on a B license?

TIA!
		
Click to expand...

Yes there is
Bateson Derby which is 675 empty and can be down plated from 1700 to 1285 leaving a max trailer load of 610kg
Bateson charge a tenner
You contact Bateson
You remove plate and send it with a tenner to Bateson
Bateson send you new plate
You fit new plate
Metal bit drill and pop rivet gun needed


----------



## Belacqua (29 March 2021)

Thank you for the quick and v useful reply! Great to have that option. And I think I finally understand the rules..!


----------



## ROG (29 March 2021)

Belacqua said:



			Thank you for the quick and v useful reply! Great to have that option. And I think I finally understand the rules..!
		
Click to expand...

Welcome

Not certain but it may be possible to down plate an IW HB401/3 from 1600 to 1250 and as they are 780 empty that would leave a max trailer load of 470kg
IW charge £50

Another option may be a Cheval liberte single horse trailer


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## dollymix (7 April 2021)

Hi Rog

posted elsewhere but someone suggested I ask in here... will a Nissan X-Trail 2017, 1.6 be legally able to tow one horse?

Usually hire a IW 511 but would like to buy a Cheval Liberte trailer ideally.

kerb weights, max brake weights... it all blows my mind! Just want to keep the neddy safe!

she is a 15hh Welsh weighing 550kg

I have passed my tow test so no problems there.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## ROG (8 April 2021)

dollymix said:



			Hi Rog

posted elsewhere but someone suggested I ask in here... will a Nissan X-Trail 2017, 1.6 be legally able to tow one horse?

Usually hire a IW 511 but would like to buy a Cheval Liberte trailer ideally.

kerb weights, max brake weights... it all blows my mind! Just want to keep the neddy safe!

she is a 15hh Welsh weighing 550kg

I have passed my tow test so no problems there.

Thanks in advance!
		
Click to expand...

Nissan X Trail Towing Capacity & Weight Limit Information 🚗  
Most have a 1500 max tow limit
Need a trailer which weighs no more than 950 empty

The cheval touring one trailer is

*Unladen Weight:* 750kg
*Gross Weight:* 1600kg

750+550=1300 so well within a 1500 max tow limit

In case you need it to conform to B licence towing it can be down plated from 1600 to 1400 because I think the Xtrail has a GVW of just under 2100


----------



## spamiad (8 April 2021)

Hi Rog,

I have a Mondeo Titanium 2 liter derv car automatic 

revenue weight on v5 is 2335 kg gross

and states 2000kg braked towing capacity 

i don't currently have a trailer license ( this can be arranged if needed) as i already own the car and its reasonably ecconimcal could i tow one horse safely with this car ?


----------



## ROG (8 April 2021)

spamiad said:



			Hi Rog,

I have a Mondeo Titanium 2 liter derv car automatic

revenue weight on v5 is 2335 kg gross

and states 2000kg braked towing capacity

i don't currently have a trailer license ( this can be arranged if needed) as i already own the car and its reasonably ecconimcal could i tow one horse safely with this car ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes you could tow one horse ok but on your current B licence the trailer would need to be plated at no more than 1165kg MAM 
The Bateson Derby trailer is 675 empty and can be down plated to 1165 but that would leave a max trailer load of 490kg so how heavy is your horse?


----------



## spamiad (9 April 2021)

ROG said:



			Yes you could tow one horse ok but on your current B licence the trailer would need to be plated at no more than 1165kg MAM
The Bateson Derby trailer is 675 empty and can be down plated to 1165 but that would leave a max trailer load of 490kg so how heavy is your horse?
		
Click to expand...

i Rog, shes around 500kg so too much weight there.

out of curiosity how to skoda ocatvia compare for towing, changing my car is and option also


----------



## ROG (9 April 2021)

spamiad said:



			i Rog, shes around 500kg so too much weight there.

out of curiosity how to skoda ocatvia compare for towing, changing my car is and option also
		
Click to expand...

Easily done with Octavia and there is a 4x4 option
Octavia is just under 2000 GVW if memory  serves right so using that same Derby trailer plated at 1500 it would leave a max trailer load of 825kg


----------



## spamiad (9 April 2021)

ROG said:



			Easily done with Octavia and there is a 4x4 option
Octavia is just under 2000 GVW if memory  serves right so using that same Derby trailer plated at 1500 it would leave a max trailer load of 825kg
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Rog

Plenty of food for thought there, i will take a look at the Octavia, would be more economical to run than a large 4x4, and parking wont be much of an issue as we have shared parking wear we live.

also, if i tow on a b license within weight and legal of course, will i still need a supervising driver or does that only apply of your towing on L plates over 3.5 mam ?


----------



## ROG (9 April 2021)

spamiad said:



			Thanks Rog

Plenty of food for thought there, i will take a look at the Octavia, would be more economical to run than a large 4x4, and parking wont be much of an issue as we have shared parking wear we live.

also, if i tow on a b license within weight and legal of course, will i still need a supervising driver or does that only apply of your towing on L plates over 3.5 mam ?
		
Click to expand...

B licence you can tow alone

When learning for B+E you need L plates and a supervising driver who has held B+E for at least 3 years and is aged over 21 as well as informing the insurer
The supervising driver does not need to be insured unless they are going to drive it

That Octavia and Derby trailer set up can be used for the B+E test even though it is B compliant BUT you need extra mirrors for the examiner and either a water IBC with 600 litres in it or 600kg of sand bags in the trailer
So you can practice for the test in this set up and then go to a training school for a very short time to familiarise with their set up and do the test in theirs


----------



## Bruce17 (11 April 2021)

Hi Rog,

This is my current set up with an Xtrail and an IW 505. My husband has a B+E licence but I don't. He hasn't had his licence 3 years yet, so he can't supervise me but he can drive for me. I'm trying to work out if I can tow legally without B+E. 

I think, if I've worked out correctly, that I can, but I don't have much spare weight for the horse. Can you confirm please, if you're okay to? 

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE: B only
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle: 1580
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle: 2160
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle: 2000
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres: 2340
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer: 905 (ifor 505)


Many thanks


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## ROG (11 April 2021)

Bruce17 said:



			Hi Rog,

This is my current set up with an Xtrail and an IW 505. My husband has a B+E licence but I don't. He hasn't had his licence 3 years yet, so he can't supervise me but he can drive for me. I'm trying to work out if I can tow legally without B+E.

I think, if I've worked out correctly, that I can, but I don't have much spare weight for the horse. Can you confirm please, if you're okay to?

1 - What licence they hold - B or BE: B only
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle: 1580
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle: 2160
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle: 2000
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres: 2340
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer: 905 (ifor 505)


Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

Max limit for B licence is 3500
You have 2160+2340=4500 so 1000 over the B limit

Down plating will not help in this case because even if the trailer could be down plated to 1340 then it would have a max load capacity of 435kg

A Bateson Derby trailer might work for you as it is 675 empty and down plated to 1340 would leave a max trailer load of 665kg


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## dollymix (16 April 2021)

ROG said:



Nissan X Trail Towing Capacity & Weight Limit Information 🚗  
Most have a 1500 max tow limit
Need a trailer which weighs no more than 950 empty

The cheval touring one trailer is

*Unladen Weight:* 750kg
*Gross Weight:* 1600kg

750+550=1300 so well within a 1500 max tow limit

In case you need it to conform to B licence towing it can be down plated from 1600 to 1400 because I think the Xtrail has a GVW of just under 2100
		
Click to expand...

there is one I might go to see tomorrow... it is 1.6. Is that going to have enough power to tow with?


----------



## ROG (17 April 2021)

dollymix said:



			there is one I might go to see tomorrow... it is 1.6. Is that going to have enough power to tow with?
		
Click to expand...

What is the max tow limit?


----------



## dollymix (17 April 2021)

ROG said:



			What is the max tow limit?
		
Click to expand...

Not sure? I thought most are 1500? 

How can I find out? Will it be in the log book? I can ask the dealer to look in the book of it will be there?


----------



## ROG (17 April 2021)

dollymix said:



			Not sure? I thought most are 1500?

How can I find out? Will it be in the log book? I can ask the dealer to look in the book of it will be there?
		
Click to expand...

Max tow weight can be found in 2 places
V5 doc under max tow weight
The weight plate with 4 numbers on it - deduct top number from the number below it

If a manufacturer states a max tow weight then the vehicle will be safe and capable of that under normal circumstances - if it does not then they would be being sued a lot!

If max tow weight says 1500 and horse and trailer together actually weigh say 1400 then there should be no issues
I would always recommend that the vehicle weighs at least as much as what is being towed


----------



## dollymix (17 April 2021)

The have asked the dealer to check the Max tow weight in the V5 for me before I drive over.

Hopefully it’ll be ok. It would be to tow one horse (550kg) and I am hoping to hire (long term) a cheval liberte trailer

just want to be safe!

I have passed my towing test so  That’s not an issue but we are in North Wales and the A55 has a large hill as you approach England!


----------



## ROG (17 April 2021)

dollymix said:



			The have asked the dealer to check the Max tow weight in the V5 for me before I drive over.

Hopefully it’ll be ok. It would be to tow one horse (550kg) and I am hoping to hire (long term) a cheval liberte trailer

just want to be safe!

I have passed my towing test so  That’s not an issue but we are in North Wales and the A55 has a large hill as you approach England!
		
Click to expand...

Cheval touring is 750 plus horse 550 = 1300 so well under a 1500 limit


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## dollymix (17 April 2021)

ROG said:



			Cheval touring is 750 plus horse 550 = 1300 so well under a 1500 limit
		
Click to expand...

Great thanks so much for the advice. 

I will wait to confirm what the dealer says re the towing weight


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## ROG (17 April 2021)

dollymix said:



			Great thanks so much for the advice.

I will wait to confirm what the dealer says re the towing weight
		
Click to expand...

Do you have anyone in your family/friends who has just a B licence and would need to drive it?


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## dollymix (17 April 2021)

The V5 says
Technical permissible maximum towable mass of trailer :
Braked (2500)
Unbraked (750)


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## dollymix (17 April 2021)

dollymix said:



			The V5 says
Technical permissible maximum towable mass of trailer :
Braked (2500)
Unbraked (750)
		
Click to expand...

it will only be me towing with it


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## dollymix (17 April 2021)

dollymix said:



			it will only be me towing with it
		
Click to expand...

 Do you think it will be powerful enough to tow one horse?


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## ROG (17 April 2021)

dollymix said:



			it will only be me towing with it
		
Click to expand...




dollymix said:



			The V5 says
Technical permissible maximum towable mass of trailer :
Braked (2500)
Unbraked (750)
		
Click to expand...

WOW - big max tow weight so deffo no issues there


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## dollymix (18 April 2021)

ROG said:



			WOW - big max tow weight so deffo no issues there
		
Click to expand...

Slight typo... should be 2000 not 2500!

still, hoping that’s ok. Really more concerned that it is 1.6 but having read so many reviews I am hoping it will be ok for one horse and trailer!


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## ROG (18 April 2021)

dollymix said:



			Slight typo... should be 2000 not 2500!

still, hoping that’s ok. Really more concerned that it is 1.6 but having read so many reviews I am hoping it will be ok for one horse and trailer!
		
Click to expand...

Still ok
Many on this site use the same set up


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## ApolloStorm (25 April 2021)

Hello ROG! 
Vehicle is Skoda Octavia 4x4 and Trailer is (hopefully) bateson Deauville . 
1- B+E
2 - 1455kg ( this is the mass in service in my v5?)
3 - 2018kg ( again this is max permissiable mass in v5?)
4 - 2000kg
5 - 2300 Bateson Deauville 
6 - 860kg 

My math works out I should have 1140kg to play with in 'horse'
I am aiming to take one small 13hh pony and a 16hh horse who is about 515kg when last weighed. 
Legal?


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## ROG (25 April 2021)

ApolloStorm said:



			Hello ROG!
Vehicle is Skoda Octavia 4x4 and Trailer is (hopefully) bateson Deauville .
1- B+E
2 - 1455kg ( this is the mass in service in my v5?)
3 - 2018kg ( again this is max permissiable mass in v5?)
4 - 2000kg
5 - 2300 Bateson Deauville
6 - 860kg

My math works out I should have 1140kg to play with in 'horse'
I am aiming to take one small 13hh pony and a 16hh horse who is about 515kg when last weighed.
Legal?
		
Click to expand...

LEGAL = SMILE

As you have B+E all that matters is that the max tow weight of 2000 and the trailer max MAM of 2300 are not exceeded - the lower figure of 2000 is used
Trailer is 860 empty so the max load for the trailer is 1140 as you stated


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## ApolloStorm (25 April 2021)

ROG said:



			LEGAL = SMILE

As you have B+E all that matters is that the max tow weight of 2000 and the trailer max MAM of 2300 are not exceeded - the lower figure of 2000 is used
Trailer is 860 empty so the max load for the trailer is 1140 as you stated
		
Click to expand...

Excellent! 
Every time I think about towing and weights I get in a muddle, i was fairly sure I was right but good to know! Another question is do i have to account for anything stored in the vehicle (ie people/tack) in this? I thought not but ive heard mixed! 
I was under the assumption that the vehicles given towing weight was calculated by the manufacturer to be when the vehicle is at its max capacity  in the vehicle and also towing the full 2000kg in terms of safety etc?


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## ROG (25 April 2021)

ApolloStorm said:



			Excellent!
Every time I think about towing and weights I get in a muddle, i was fairly sure I was right but good to know! Another question is do i have to account for anything stored in the vehicle (ie people/tack) in this? I thought not but ive heard mixed!
I was under the assumption that the vehicles given towing weight was calculated by the manufacturer to be when the vehicle is at its max capacity  in the vehicle and also towing the full 2000kg in terms of safety etc?
		
Click to expand...

Vehicle has its own max weight = GVW
Trailer has its own max weight = plated MAM

Max tow weight is determined by manufacturer and is done with an empty vehicle
There are some 4x4s which are designed to tow 3500 when empty at about 1800 - seriously
I would always recommend that the tow vehicle be heavier than the trailer at the time of towing


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## ApolloStorm (25 April 2021)

ROG said:



			Vehicle has its own max weight = GVW
Trailer has its own max weight = plated MAM

Max tow weight is determined by manufacturer and is done with an empty vehicle
There are some 4x4s which are designed to tow 3500 when empty at about 1800 - seriously
I would always recommend that the tow vehicle be heavier than the trailer at the time of towing
		
Click to expand...

So if I would load the trailer up to say 1900kg then the car would also need to weigh 1900kg or more? is that with 'stuff' in the vehicle? or is it that the unladen needs to be more?


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## ROG (25 April 2021)

ApolloStorm said:



			So if I would load the trailer up to say 1900kg then the car would also need to weigh 1900kg or more? is that with 'stuff' in the vehicle? or is it that the unladen needs to be more?
		
Click to expand...

Actual weight of the car an all in it would be recommended to be at least 1900 but does not have to be legally


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## Nata (3 May 2021)

tallyho! said:



			After the recent poll by perfect11s:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=489592

Many agreed a sticky would be very useful, but the format needed to change to avoid the confusion/arguments.

At the end of the above thread, ROG kindly agreed to help run a Towing Clinic for those who find the laws & limitations as confusing as I did.


*Here is an example of how it will work:-*

"If a member on here was to provide me with the relevant info then I can say whether the set up is legal or not on either a B or BE licence and WHY

I would need -
1 - What licence they hold - B or BE
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer "

- ROG

"I'll start here first...

1. B+E Licence
2. 2410kg (this is kerbweight/unladen right?)
3. 3450kg (not too sure about this - what does it mean? Max load of vehicle?)
4. 2500kg (Capacity)
5. 1905kg (HB505)
6. 905kg

Thanks ROG. "

- tallyho!

"LEGAL

1 - max vehicle GVW of 3500 (you got 3450) and max trailer MAM of 3500 (you got 1905)
2 - correct - usually listed in handbook
3 - correct - number 2 (2410) with full load of 1040 (2410+1040=3450)
4 - max weight of empty trailer plus the load on it
5 minus 6 1905-905=1000 so 1000 is the max load that can be loaded onto the trailer

5 is much lower than 4 so a fully laden trailler weighing 1905 is well within the max towing capacity of 2500

Your max combination weight would be 5355 with that set up (3450+1905=5355) but you could go up to 5950 if you got a trailer with a MAM of at least 2500 (up to 3500)

ADD - the problem in getting a trailer with a greater MAM could be that it is heavier when empty so getting a 3500 MAM trailer which weighed 1500 empty still only allows you a max payload of 1000 because of the 2500 towing capacity limit for your vehicle

If you are happy with the trailer load capacity of 1000 then great! "

-ROG

Hope that makes sense and you find it useful. Any questions about using the clinic, please PM me so we can keep the clinic running as smoothly as possible.

Useful Links:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_10013073

http://www.uktow.com/towing capacity.asp?make=Nissan#tab1

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/index.htm

TYRE LOAD RATINGS calculate KGS by multiplying the number of tyres

ROG's thread: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=475968

Click to expand...

Hi , help please it’s all to confusing my car is 
Empty weight towing vehicle  1944
Gvw.                                     3050
Gtw.                                      3500
Mam trailer.                             1550
Unleaded weight of trailer.         1000


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## Nata (3 May 2021)

Nata said:



			Hi , help please it’s all to confusing my car is
Empty weight towing vehicle  1944
Gvw.                                     3050
Gtw.                                      3500
Mam trailer.                             1550
Unleaded weight of trailer.         1000
		
Click to expand...

I have a b class license do I need to take a further driving test , please any advice thank you


----------



## ROG (3 May 2021)

Nata said:



			Hi , help please it’s all to confusing my car is
Empty weight towing vehicle  1944
Gvw.                                     3050
Gtw.                                      3500
Mam trailer.                             1550
Unleaded weight of trailer.         1000
		
Click to expand...




Nata said:



			I have a b class license do I need to take a further driving test , please any advice thank you
		
Click to expand...

That must be a van???
Deffo need a B+E licence
Max you can tow with a B licence is 750kgs plated MAM with a GVW of 3050


----------



## tallyho! (5 May 2021)

Yes you'll have to take a B+E test... easy though I did mine in a day.


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## Pd19 (5 May 2021)

Hi, needing to buy a new family car that fits 3 child car seats, has boot space and tows my Bateson Ascot trailer (mostly one 500kg horse, rarely another 450kg pony as well)

Shortlist includes Skoda Octavia Scout 2.0l 4x4 TDI-figures below:

1. B+E license
2. 1451kg Skoda Octavia Scout 4x4 2.0 tdi
3. 2096kg
4. 2000kg
5. 2300kg (Bateson Ascot)
6. 925kg

Is this combination legal?
Thank you.


----------



## ROG (5 May 2021)

Pd19 said:



			Hi, needing to buy a new family car that fits 3 child car seats, has boot space and tows my Bateson Ascot trailer (mostly one 500kg horse, rarely another 450kg pony as well)

Shortlist includes Skoda Octavia Scout 2.0l 4x4 TDI-figures below:

1. B+E license
2. 1451kg Skoda Octavia Scout 4x4 2.0 tdi
3. 2096kg
4. 2000kg
5. 2300kg (Bateson Ascot)
6. 925kg

Is this combination legal?
Thank you.
		
Click to expand...

Yes it is legal for B+E licence
Max load for trailer is 1075kg (2000 minus 925)


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## Pd19 (6 May 2021)

ROG said:



			Yes it is legal for B+E licence
Max load for trailer is 1075kg (2000 minus 925)
		
Click to expand...

Thank you very much


----------



## Peachespony (7 May 2021)

Hi Rog, slightly different question, but I thought you'd be a reliable source (I've found so much conflicting information online) - I'm currently a learner b+e driver (i have standard b licence). Can I be supervised by a driver with grandfather rights (passed pre 1997)?  Thanks


----------



## ROG (7 May 2021)

Peachespony said:



			Hi Rog, slightly different question, but I thought you'd be a reliable source (I've found so much conflicting information online) - I'm currently a learner b+e driver (i have standard b licence). Can I be supervised by a driver with grandfather rights (passed pre 1997)?  Thanks
		
Click to expand...

YES 100% - your 100 year old granny who still has a licence can do so!
Supervising driver does not need to be insured  unless they are going to drive it


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## Peachespony (7 May 2021)

ROG said:



			YES 100% - your 100 year old granny who still has a licence can do so!
Supervising driver does not need to be insured  unless they are going to drive it
		
Click to expand...

Fantastic! Thanks so much.


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## I don’t like mondays (9 May 2021)

Hi ROG
Please could you help me?
Car can tow 1400kg 
Trailer unladen weight 860kg
Trailer gross weight 2300kg
Trailer capacity 1400kg
Horse 500kg
I only have B licence 

can I tow legally? Do I need to get my (potential) trailer downplated?

thanks in advance


----------



## ROG (9 May 2021)

I don’t like mondays said:



			Hi ROG
Please could you help me?
Car can tow 1400kg
Trailer unladen weight 860kg
Trailer gross weight 2300kg
Trailer capacity 1400kg
Horse 500kg
I only have B licence

can I tow legally? Do I need to get my (potential) trailer downplated?

thanks in advance
		
Click to expand...

I need the GVW of the vehicle


----------



## I don’t like mondays (9 May 2021)

ROG said:



			I need the GVW of the vehicle
		
Click to expand...

It’s 1,563kg. Thanks


----------



## ROG (9 May 2021)

I don’t like mondays said:



			It’s 1,563kg. Thanks
		
Click to expand...

That is probably the empty weight/mass in service

The GVW is likely to be between 1900 and 2300
Check V5 keeper doc for max permissible weight OR find weight plate hidden in car which is usually under bonnet or in a door frame - the top of the 4 listed numbers is the GVW


----------



## I don’t like mondays (9 May 2021)

ROG said:



			That is probably the empty weight/mass in service

The GVW is likely to be between 1900 and 2300
Check V5 keeper doc for max permissible weight OR find weight plate hidden in car which is usually under bonnet or in a door frame - the top of the 4 listed numbers is the GVW
		
Click to expand...

The Max permissible mass from the v5 is 2155kg


----------



## ROG (9 May 2021)

I don’t like mondays said:



			The Max permissible mass from the v5 is 2155kg
		
Click to expand...




I don’t like mondays said:



			Hi ROG
Please could you help me?
Car can tow 1400kg
Trailer unladen weight 860kg
Trailer gross weight 2300kg
Trailer capacity 1400kg
Horse 500kg
I only have B licence

can I tow legally? Do I need to get my (potential) trailer downplated?

thanks in advance
		
Click to expand...

GVW of 2155 leaves max trailer plated MAM of 1345
I think you have a IW HB 505/6 which can only be down plated to 1400 no lower so no good for B licence towing
What you need is a lighter trailer such as a Bateson Derby which is 675 empty and can be down plated to 1345 leaving a max trailer load of 670


----------



## I don’t like mondays (9 May 2021)

ROG said:



			GVW of 2155 leaves max trailer plated MAM of 1345
I think you have a IW HB 505/6 which can only be down plated to 1400 no lower so no good for B licence towing
What you need is a lighter trailer such as a Bateson Derby which is 675 empty and can be down plated to 1345 leaving a max trailer load of 670
		
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for your help ROG. I’m looking at a Bateson Deaville, do you know if that can be downplated sufficiently?


----------



## ROG (9 May 2021)

I don’t like mondays said:



			Thanks so much for your help ROG. I’m looking at a Bateson Deaville, do you know if that can be downplated sufficiently?
		
Click to expand...

Too heavy


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## ROG (9 May 2021)

Apart from the Bateson Derby you are looking for a single horse trailer which is max 750 empty


----------



## I don’t like mondays (9 May 2021)

ROG said:



			Too heavy
		
Click to expand...

Ok. Thanks for all of your help 😊


----------



## amycamycamyc (2 June 2021)

Hi ROG, please can I  have your expert blessing for the following combination...?

- B driving licence only
- Ford Kuga (2019 1.5 ecoboost zetec 2WD badge power 150hp)
- GWM: 2100, gross train mass: 4100,   kerb weight: 1579, mass towable mass: 2000  (https://media.ford.com/content/dam/.../Kuga/FordKuga_TechnicalSpecifications_EU.pdf)

- Trailer: Cheval Liberte Touring One trailer, unladen weight 745kg, downrated to 1400kg
- Horse: 650kg on a bad day without breathing in

I think this is ok.... 

Praying it is!
Thanks very much in advance!


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## ROG (2 June 2021)

amycamycamyc said:



			Hi ROG, please can I  have your expert blessing for the following combination...?

- B driving licence only
- Ford Kuga (2019 1.5 ecoboost zetec 2WD badge power 150hp)
- GWM: 2100, gross train mass: 4100,   kerb weight: 1579, mass towable mass: 2000  (https://media.ford.com/content/dam/.../Kuga/FordKuga_TechnicalSpecifications_EU.pdf)

- Trailer: Cheval Liberte Touring One trailer, unladen weight 745kg, downrated to 1400kg
- Horse: 650kg on a bad day without breathing in

I think this is ok....

Praying it is!
Thanks very much in advance!
		
Click to expand...

2100 + 1400 = 3500 so YES YES YES on a B licence
Horse 650 + empty trailer 745 = 1395 so only 5 to spare = very very close so perhaps a trip when loaded to a weigh bridge ?


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## amycamycamyc (2 June 2021)

ROG said:



			2100 + 1400 = 3500 so YES YES YES on a B licence
Horse 650 + empty trailer 745 = 1395 so only 5 to spare = very very close so perhaps a trip when loaded to a weigh bridge ?
		
Click to expand...

Great, thanks ROG!

Yes a trip to a weighbridge PLUS even more incentive to keep the Horse on a permanent diet!


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## newhorseowner2008 (3 June 2021)

Hello!

Looking for some advice. 

Looking to purchase Rav4 4 wheel drive, 2.5 lite engine. 

Towing capacity 1650kg, kerb weight 1615kg.

I am towing Ifor 506 920kg and horse at 500kg. So 1450kg total.

Will this do what I need it to do?


The figures in my mind work out but I want to check.


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## ROG (3 June 2021)

newhorseowner2008 said:



			Hello!

Looking for some advice.

Looking to purchase Rav4 4 wheel drive, 2.5 lite engine.

Towing capacity 1650kg, kerb weight 1615kg.

I am towing Ifor 506 920kg and horse at 500kg. So 1450kg total.

Will this do what I need it to do?


The figures in my mind work out but I want to check.
		
Click to expand...

What licence B or B+E?
GVW of vehicle if on a B licence? - does not matter if got B+E


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## newhorseowner2008 (3 June 2021)

ROG said:



			What licence B or B+E?
GVW of vehicle if on a B licence? - does not matter if got B+E
		
Click to expand...

I have B + E licence . I am worried about the car being able to tow . Any insight would be great. It’s below the kerb weight and Towing capacity . But just not sure .
Thanks in advance!


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## ROG (3 June 2021)

newhorseowner2008 said:



			I have B + E licence . I am worried about the car being able to tow . Any insight would be great. It’s below the kerb weight and Towing capacity . But just not sure .
Thanks in advance!
		
Click to expand...

If a manufacturer says it can tow 1650 then it can - if it could not then they would be sued a lot!!


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## newhorseowner2008 (3 June 2021)

ROG said:



			If a manufacturer says it can tow 1650 then it can - if it could not then they would be sued a lot!!
		
Click to expand...

This is very true .  I just wondered if being close-ish  to the towing capacity would be a problem .


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## ROG (3 June 2021)

newhorseowner2008 said:



			This is very true .  I just wondered if being close-ish  to the towing capacity would be a problem .
		
Click to expand...

I can only give the same answer as previous


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## newhorseowner2008 (3 June 2021)

ROG said:



			I can only give the same answer as previous
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, much appreciated.


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## holeymoley (3 June 2021)

newhorseowner2008 said:



			Thanks, much appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

Just my input- the terrain you drive on can depend how well it will tow too. Towing on tarmac and on fairly ‘normal’ roads can make a big difference to towing up inclines on rough stoney tracks so it’s worth taking that in to consideration too. If you’re prone to the latter I’d suggest something with a bit more gumph.


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## newhorseowner2008 (3 June 2021)

holeymoley said:



			Just my input- the terrain you drive on can depend how well it will tow too. Towing on tarmac and on fairly ‘normal’ roads can make a big difference to towing up inclines on rough stoney tracks so it’s worth taking that in to consideration too. If you’re prone to the latter I’d suggest something with a bit more gumph.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you so much. I did Have a think about this . Everywhere I’ll be going is tarmac and easy roads actually and no steep inclines which is good .


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## sparow (13 June 2021)

newhorseowner2008 said:



			Thank you so much. I did Have a think about this . Everywhere I’ll be going is tarmac and easy roads actually and no steep inclines which is good .
		
Click to expand...


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## sparow (13 June 2021)

Hi, if I can yet another trailer query for you:

Have B&E licence 
Ford Kuga 2 litre diesel automatic

From V5 Documentation:

Revenue weight is 2230 kg GROSS
Mass permissable weight is 2230 kg
Mass in service is 1788 kg
Permissable maximum towable mass of trailer:  Braked 2100 kg
Unbraked: 750 kg

What weight can I realistically tow with this car.  I was thinking of a Cheval Liberte trailer due to lower weight.  Is this sensible or would my car cope with a heavier Ifor Williams.

Horse weighs approx 600 kgs.

Many thanks for your help with this.


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## ROG (14 June 2021)

sparow said:



			Hi, if I can yet another trailer query for you:

Have B&E licence
Ford Kuga 2 litre diesel automatic

From V5 Documentation:

Revenue weight is 2230 kg GROSS
Mass permissable weight is 2230 kg
Mass in service is 1788 kg
Permissable maximum towable mass of trailer:  Braked 2100 kg
Unbraked: 750 kg

What weight can I realistically tow with this car.  I was thinking of a Cheval Liberte trailer due to lower weight.  Is this sensible or would my car cope with a heavier Ifor Williams.

Horse weighs approx 600 kgs.

Many thanks for your help with this.
		
Click to expand...

You can tow 2100 with this vehicle
Manufacturers would be being sued if the max tow weight was not OK


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## sparow (14 June 2021)

ROG said:



			You can tow 2100 with this vehicle
Manufacturers would be being sued if the max tow weight was not OK
		
Click to expand...

Many thanks for this.


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## ROG (15 July 2021)

IMPORTANT UPDATE FOR MANUAL B LICENCE HOLDERS

Now passing auto B+E in the UK when you have B manual will get you B+E in manual

https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...ing-licence-upgrade-and-motorcycle-test-rules


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## tallyho! (17 July 2021)

ROG said:



			IMPORTANT UPDATE FOR MANUAL B LICENCE HOLDERS

Now passing auto B+E in the UK when you have B manual will get you B+E in manual

https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...ing-licence-upgrade-and-motorcycle-test-rules

Click to expand...

As long as you have passed a manual test previously… but some kids do their test in an automatic so will they have to take another test for manual first?


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## ROG (17 July 2021)

tallyho! said:



			As long as you have passed a manual test previously… but some kids do their test in an automatic so will they have to take another test for manual first?
		
Click to expand...

They could do B+E manual which upgrades B to manual or pass B & B+E auto then do B manual which upgrades all to manual

Any manual pass will upgrade all other categories in auto to manual


----------



## tallyho! (18 July 2021)

Ah ok thanks for clarifying.


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## ROG (20 July 2021)

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...-of-measures-to-support-road-haulage-industry
*look at whether specific car and trailer tests should be required*

Rather than scrap the B+E test I would like to see B+E trainers being able to sign off the driver as being safely competent to have B+E added


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## AMJJ1986 (2 August 2021)

Hello,
Wondering if there are any single trailer/car options to tow a 725kg horse on a B license? I've been researching it but not sure it is possible to find a safe/legal set up for such a big horse. (also looking at lorries and booking trailer test)
Thanks


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## ROG (2 August 2021)

AMJJ1986 said:



			Hello,
Wondering if there are any single trailer/car options to tow a 725kg horse on a B license? I've been researching it but not sure it is possible to find a safe/legal set up for such a big horse. (also looking at lorries and booking trailer test)
Thanks 

Click to expand...

Skoda Octavia 4x4 GVW 2100kg
Bateson Derby trailer MAM 1400 down plated from 1700
Trailer empty = 675 so at 1400 that would leave a max trailer load of 725
THAT IS VERY TIGHT!!


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## AMJJ1986 (2 August 2021)

ROG said:



			Skoda Octavia 4x4 GVW 2100kg
Bateson Derby trailer MAM 1400 down plated from 1700
Trailer empty = 675 so at 1400 that would leave a max trailer load of 725
THAT IS VERY TIGHT!!
		
Click to expand...

Thanks so much ROG, appreciate your input. I think I had better book in a test (or get a smaller horse 🤦‍♀️)


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## Ched9310 (8 August 2021)

Hi ROG, 

what would be you best recommendation for a car that could tow a 510 with 15.2 & 16.2 horse, weight of horses approx 1100kg.

I know this has been done to death but I find so many pros & cons for different vehicles when researching.

Ideally need something that won’t break the back to run, I was looking at the Kia Sorento but now not sure it’s ‘safe’ enough!

Thank you!


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## ROG (8 August 2021)

Ched9310 said:



			Hi ROG,

what would be you best recommendation for a car that could tow a 510 with 15.2 & 16.2 horse, weight of horses approx 1100kg.

I know this has been done to death but I find so many pros & cons for different vehicles when researching.

Ideally need something that won’t break the back to run, I was looking at the Kia Sorento but now not sure it’s ‘safe’ enough!

Thank you!
		
Click to expand...

You will get more responses on this by posting in the main forum
I will assume you have B+E on licence


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## Ched9310 (8 August 2021)

ROG said:



			You will get more responses on this by posting in the main forum
I will assume you have B+E on licence
		
Click to expand...

Where can I find the main forum?

Yes I do.

Thanks


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## ROG (8 August 2021)

Ched9310 said:



			Where can I find the main forum?
		
Click to expand...

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/the-tack-room.79/


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## friesianfan69 (16 August 2021)

ROG said:



			Load both vehicle and trailer as though you were going out with them for a hack etc
		
Click to expand...

Hi just to update you  i got my car/ trailer / equine weighed all in one on the weighbridge and it was 3180


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## ROG (16 August 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			Hi just to update you  i got my car/ trailer / equine weighed all in one on the weighbridge and it was 3180
		
Click to expand...

Great
Did you do all three weights as I suggested?


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## friesianfan69 (16 August 2021)

ROG said:



			Great
Did you do all three weights as I suggested?
		
Click to expand...

No , just the whole weight, do i need to do it in 3 secs to?


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## ROG (16 August 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			No , just the whole weight, do i need to do it in 3 secs to?
		
Click to expand...

You have the total weight but not the weights of the separate vehicle and trailer

If you do go to a standard weighbridge - the type with the large metal plate that an artic can fit on - then get 3 weights by doing this = no need to unhitch
Drive vehicle onto the plate leaving trailer wheels just before the plate - note weight 1 = vehicle
Now drive forward putting both vehicle and trailer onto plate - note weight 2 = total of both
Now drive forward so rear wheels of vehicle are just off the plate - note weight 3 = trailer
You will find that 1 + 3 will equal 2


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## friesianfan69 (16 August 2021)

ROG said:



			You have the total weight but not the weights of the separate vehicle and trailer

If you do go to a standard weighbridge - the type with the large metal plate that an artic can fit on - then get 3 weights by doing this = no need to unhitch
Drive vehicle onto the plate leaving trailer wheels just before the plate - note weight 1 = vehicle
Now drive forward putting both vehicle and trailer onto plate - note weight 2 = total of both
Now drive forward so rear wheels of vehicle are just off the plate - note weight 3 = trailer
You will find that 1 + 3 will equal 2
		
Click to expand...

ok will do, Is the total weight ok though? do i need the separate weights to ?


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## ROG (16 August 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			ok will do, Is the total weight ok though? do i need the separate weights to ?
		
Click to expand...

total is ok but you do not know if either the vehicle or the trailer are over or not


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## friesianfan69 (18 August 2021)

ROG said:



			total is ok but you do not know if either the vehicle or the trailer are over or not
		
Click to expand...

Had it redone today 
Car 1920
Trailer x pony 1160
Trailer car x pony 3080


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## ROG (18 August 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			Had it redone today
Car 1920
Trailer x pony 1160
Trailer car x pony 3080
		
Click to expand...

Brill
From memory .....
1920 is below the plated GVW
1160 is below the trailer plated MAM


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## friesianfan69 (18 August 2021)

It was downplated to 1330


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## ROG (18 August 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			It was downplated to 1330
		
Click to expand...

Still have 170 to play with


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## friesianfan69 (18 August 2021)

So is that ok then?


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## ROG (18 August 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			So is that ok then?
		
Click to expand...

YUP - all safe and legal


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## friesianfan69 (18 August 2021)

ROG said:



			YUP - all safe and legal
		
Click to expand...

That's great Thankyou so much for all your help and advice


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## I don’t like mondays (22 August 2021)

Hello ROG I need some advice please. I’ve got a mare and foal trailer and a B licence. The trailer (580kg) + horse (550kg) plus GVW of my car 2,200 is under 3.5, however I’ve noticed the MAM of my little lightweight trailer is a whopping 1800kg (even though the unladen weight is 580kg). Is it the MAM + GVW that needs to be less than 3.5t? Thanks


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## ROG (22 August 2021)

I don’t like mondays said:



			Hello ROG I need some advice please. I’ve got a mare and foal trailer and a B licence. The trailer (580kg) + horse (550kg) plus GVW of my car 2,200 is under 3.5, however I’ve noticed the MAM of my little lightweight trailer is a whopping 1800kg (even though the unladen weight is 580kg). Is it the MAM + GVW that needs to be less than 3.5t? Thanks
		
Click to expand...

GVW + MAM does need to be be 3500 max for B towing

What is your trailer? - make and model please


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## I don’t like mondays (22 August 2021)

ROG said:



			GVW + MAM does need to be be 3500 max for B towing

What is your trailer? - make and model please
		
Click to expand...

Ok, thanks 
Fautras JMS (mare and foal)


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## ROG (22 August 2021)

I don’t like mondays said:



			Ok, thanks
Fautras JMS (mare and foal)
		
Click to expand...

Is it this one = http://www.horsetrailersales.co.uk/NewFautrasSingleProvan.asp
???
Weight kg
Maximum Gross Weight. 1800
Unladen Weight 580


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## I don’t like mondays (22 August 2021)

ROG said:



			Is it this one = http://www.horsetrailersales.co.uk/NewFautrasSingleProvan.asp
???
Weight kg
Maximum Gross Weight. 1800
Unladen Weight 580
		
Click to expand...

Yes that’s the one


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## ROG (22 August 2021)

I don’t like mondays said:



			Yes that’s the one
		
Click to expand...

F or B towing you need it down plating from 1800 to 1300 because your vehicle is 2200 GVW
That will leave a max trailer load of 720
You need to contact the trailer manufacturer to do this and it seems tally-ho trailers are the people in the UK on 01452 814152


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## I don’t like mondays (22 August 2021)

ROG said:



			F or B towing you need it down plating from 1800 to 1300 because your vehicle is 2200 GVW
That will leave a max trailer load of 720
You need to contact the trailer manufacturer to do this and it seems tally-ho trailers are the people in the UK on 01452 814152

Click to expand...

Thank you so much, that’s really helpful, I’ll give them a call


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## ROG (10 September 2021)

Looks like most of my advice on this thread will be useless after the Autumn
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-rules-for-towing-a-trailer-or-caravan-with-a-car-from-autumn-2021
*What will change later in 2021*
The law is going to change later in 2021. It will mean that if you passed your car driving test from 1 January 1997, you’ll be allowed to tow trailers up to 3,500kg MAM without taking a car and trailer driving test.

Car and trailer driving tests are stopping ahead of the law changing. This means you can no longer book or take a car and trailer driving test from 20 September 2021. However, the law about what you can tow will not change until later in autumn 2021.


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## ROG (12 September 2021)

This might be my post on this thread so here are the rules for B+E

Do not exceed the max tow capacity of the vehicle
Do not exceed the max trailer plated MAM weight
The trailer plated MAM can legally be more than the vehicle max tow weight
Stick to the lowest weight when looking at the max vehicle tow weight and the max trailer plated weight

Legal example
Vehicle max tow 2000
Trailer plated MAM weight 3500
Trailer empty weight 1000
Max load for trailer 1000


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## Sheep (12 September 2021)

ROG, thanks for all your contributions over the years, you’ve helped a lot of people on here and we are very grateful to you for sharing your knowledge & expertise.


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## friesianfan69 (30 September 2021)

ROG said:



			This might be my post on this thread so here are the rules for B+E

Do not exceed the max tow capacity of the vehicle
Do not exceed the max trailer plated MAM weight
The trailer plated MAM can legally be more than the vehicle max tow weight
Stick to the lowest weight when looking at the max vehicle tow weight and the max trailer plated weight

Legal example
Vehicle max tow 2000
Trailer plated MAM weight 3500
Trailer empty weight 1000
Max load for trailer 1000
		
Click to expand...

So is mine still ok?


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## ROG (30 September 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			So is mine still ok?
		
Click to expand...

Forgot what you have so please post -
Licence B or B+E (possibly free B+E from Nov 15 2021)
GVW of vehicle
Max tow limit of vehicle
Trailer plated MAM weight
Weight to go into trailer


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## friesianfan69 (30 September 2021)

ROG said:



			Forgot what you have so please post -
Licence B or B+E (possibly free B+E from Nov 15 2021)
GVW of vehicle
Max tow limit of vehicle
Trailer plated MAM weight
Weight to go into trailer
		
Click to expand...


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## ROG (1 October 2021)

Cannot see pic so please post info


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## friesianfan69 (1 October 2021)

ROG said:



			Cannot see pic so please post info
		
Click to expand...

All above on this page


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## ROG (1 October 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			All above on this page
		
Click to expand...

I cannot seem to find those numbers


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## friesianfan69 (1 October 2021)

ROG said:



			I cannot seem to find those numbers
		
Click to expand...

Car 1920
Trailer x pony 1160
Trailer car x pony 3080


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## ROG (1 October 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			Car 1920
Trailer x pony 1160
Trailer car x pony 3080
		
Click to expand...

ASSUMING .....
car GVW 1920
Still need trailer plated MAM + max tow limit for car + what licence you have


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## friesianfan69 (1 October 2021)

ROG said:



			ASSUMING .....
car GVW 1920
Still need trailer plated MAM + max tow limit for car + what licence you have
		
Click to expand...

Car GVW 2170 + trailer 1330 my licence i passed jan 97


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## ROG (1 October 2021)

friesianfan69 said:



			Car GVW 2170 + trailer 1330 my licence i passed jan 97
		
Click to expand...

Thanks
Total 3500 so ok with your current B licence which will go from B to B+E possibly on 15 Nov
Caveat - as long as car has max tow limit of at least 1330 if you are loading the trailer to its max of 1330


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## ROG (8 October 2021)

*MYTHBUSTER*
This is likely to raise its head again when the free B+E comes into force possibly on November 16th 2021

There is no law or rule which states the plated MAM of the trailer must fit into the maximum tow capacity of the towing vehicle

There are myths about which say that if the trailer MAM is more than the max tow then it has the potential to be overloaded 
One way to think about this word potential is this - 
Police stop a car on the motorway doing 70 but then charge the driver as the car has the potential to do 150
As we know that is really silly!

Legal example
Vehicle max tow limit 2000
Trailer MAM 3500
Trailer empty 1000
Max load for trailer 1000 due to the lower limit of 2000


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## Gallopingvet (16 October 2021)

Sorry Rog can I check I’ve understood? So if the car states maximum towing all I need to make sure is that the trailer loaded always weighs less than that, and that the mam of the trailer doesn’t necessarily matter? I have B plus E license and a volvo v90 car and am trying to tow one horse. Most modern trailers plus my horse would be way less than 1700kg from what I can work out.


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## ROG (17 October 2021)

Gallopingvet said:



			Sorry Rog can I check I’ve understood? So if the car states maximum towing all I need to make sure is that the trailer loaded always weighs less than that, and that the mam of the trailer doesn’t necessarily matter? I have B plus E license and a volvo v90 car and am trying to tow one horse. Most modern trailers plus my horse would be way less than 1700kg from what I can work out.
		
Click to expand...

MAM does matter if that is lower than the vehicle max tow limit but I think you have considered that although it did not make it clear in your post


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## ROG (11 November 2021)

UPDATE
New rules for towing a trailer with a car from autumn 2021 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) 
*The rules about what you can tow will not be changing on 15 November 2021*. The change will be introduced at a later date, and as soon as possible. Sign up for email alerts to be told when the new date is confirmed. You must continue to follow the current rules until the law changes.


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## ROG (23 November 2021)

*Still no date set for when all car drivers will get B+E*

Draft legislation: The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 5) Regulations 2021 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) 
A statutory instrument was laid on 16 September 2021 titled the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2021 (the ‘No. 2 Regulations’) and was due to come into force on 15 November 2021. The substantive legislative changes proposed in the No. 2 Regulations would have removed the need for a person to pass the ‘B+E’ car and trailer test before they could pull a heavy trailer behind their car. This would have meant people with licences awarded after 1997 also no longer needed to pass a separate test to tow a heavy trailer.
This statutory instrument was not approved in time for the No. 2 Regulations to come into force on 15 November 2021. Since such affirmative statutory instruments cannot be amended once laid in draft, we have taken action to lay the regulations afresh as the draft Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 5) Regulations 2021 (the ‘No. 5 Regulations’).
To make rapid progress on this, we are seeking to make use of the urgency procedure under paragraph 14(6) of schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. I am of the opinion that, by reason of urgency, the requirements for this affirmative statutory instrument (by virtue of paragraph 13(1) of schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018) to be made after being published in draft for 28 days, together with a scrutiny statement, should not apply.
Forgoing the 28-day publication period will allow earlier laying of the No. 5 Regulations than would have otherwise been possible and strengthen the steps we have already taken to increase HGV testing capacity and ease supply chain issues as quickly as possible. Arrangements will be in place to ensure that the changes made by the No. 5 Regulations are operationally effective as soon as they come into force.
Published 23 November 2021


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## Tyanilth (5 December 2021)

Hi there - looking for recommendations as finally retiring my old Bahill sportsman and looking for a modern trailer.
Tow car is a Saab 95 2010, tow capacity 1800 kg
B & E license.
Horse is a 17hh ISH, approx weight 700 kg
Only towing 1 horse.
Budget of about 4 k to buy trailer.
What trailer should I look for that will manage the above?


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## ROG (5 December 2021)

Tyanilth said:



			Hi there - looking for recommendations as finally retiring my old Bahill sportsman and looking for a modern trailer.
Tow car is a Saab 95 2010, tow capacity 1800 kg
B & E license.
Horse is a 17hh ISH, approx weight 700 kg
Only towing 1 horse.
Budget of about 4 k to buy trailer.
What trailer should I look for that will manage the above?
		
Click to expand...

There are many from singles to doubles
I would limit to 1000kgs for an empty trailer but there are not that many above that


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## Tyanilth (5 December 2021)

ROG said:



			There are many from singles to doubles
I would limit to 1000kgs for an empty trailer but there are not that many above that
		
Click to expand...

Thanks.  I’ll start peering at manufacturers spec sheets


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## DaisyO (5 January 2022)

Hi Rog, hoping for some clarity on towing! 

Looking to buy an Ifor Williams 505 and a towing vehicle. 
Looking at a Mitsubishi L200 which has a towing capacity of 2700.
Most of the time will be towing 1 16.2 horse (around 620kgs) but occasionally might like to take another similar sized horse with us. Is the L200 capable of this? Or is it only the newer L200 with the higher towing capacity (I think 3.1t) capable? (They are sadly out of my budget!) 
And can I do this on my license without the towing test? (If not, my other half will have to drive all the time as he has B+E). 
Thank you in advance!


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## ROG (5 January 2022)

DaisyO said:



			Hi Rog, hoping for some clarity on towing!

Looking to buy an Ifor Williams 505 and a towing vehicle.
Looking at a Mitsubishi L200 which has a towing capacity of 2700.
Most of the time will be towing 1 16.2 horse (around 620kgs) but occasionally might like to take another similar sized horse with us. Is the L200 capable of this? Or is it only the newer L200 with the higher towing capacity (I think 3.1t) capable? (They are sadly out of my budget!)
And can I do this on my license without the towing test? (If not, my other half will have to drive all the time as he has B+E).
Thank you in advance!
		
Click to expand...

Easily capable with both horses
Every car driver now has B+E


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## ROG (10 February 2022)

For all those with down plated trailers you now have the choice to have them re-plated to their original MAM


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## tallyho! (10 February 2022)

What a palaver.


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## Stripe37 (16 February 2022)

Hoping for some help on towing vehicle as my old jeep has died as I think I've thoroughly confused myself.

I have an old ifor HB505 which is 905kg unladen and can take up to 1000kg. Giving a total of 1905kg. My plan is to tow 1x horse of around 500kg and occasionally another horse of the same size/ weight.

Am I right in thinking that the maximum weight of trailer & load must be no more than 85% of the kerbweight of the vehicle? 

So from my understanding, based on the 85% rule; Mitsibushi outlander is coming in a 1600kg for kerb weight- giving a tow weight of approx 1300kg. Vauxhall antara is coming in a 1700kg for kerb weight- giving a tow weight of 1450kg. Isuzu dmax are around 1900kg for kerbweights- giving a tow weight of 1600kg. 

Am I looking at the right thing when trying to determine whether a vehicle would safely tow what I'd like it to? If not, what should I be looking at and taking into consideration. 

Thanks in advance to anyone who can shed any light on this.


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## ROG (16 February 2022)

Stripe37 said:



			Hoping for some help on towing vehicle as my old jeep has died as I think I've thoroughly confused myself.

I have an old ifor HB505 which is 905kg unladen and can take up to 1000kg. Giving a total of 1905kg. My plan is to tow 1x horse of around 500kg and occasionally another horse of the same size/ weight.

Am I right in thinking that the maximum weight of trailer & load must be no more than 85% of the kerbweight of the vehicle?

So from my understanding, based on the 85% rule; Mitsibushi outlander is coming in a 1600kg for kerb weight- giving a tow weight of approx 1300kg. Vauxhall antara is coming in a 1700kg for kerb weight- giving a tow weight of 1450kg. Isuzu dmax are around 1900kg for kerbweights- giving a tow weight of 1600kg.

Am I looking at the right thing when trying to determine whether a vehicle would safely tow what I'd like it to? If not, what should I be looking at and taking into consideration.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can shed any light on this.
		
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The 85% advice is for caravans only due to them being big lightweight bubbles
As long as the vehicle you get has a towing capacity of 905+500+500=1905 plus a bit more for extras so lets say 2000 then all should be well

HB505 should be 905 empty and 2340 max when loaded unless it has been down plated at some point


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## Stripe37 (16 February 2022)

ROG said:



			The 85% advice is for caravans only due to them being big lightweight bubbles
As long as the vehicle you get has a towing capacity of 905+500+500=1905 plus a bit more for extras so lets say 2000 then all should be well

HB505 should be 905 empty and 2340 max when loaded unless it has been down plated at some point
		
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Ah, I didn't realise that was for caravans only. Thank you for taking the time to respond. 

I will double check the plating. 

So, given the 85% caravan rule doesn't apply to trailers. What should I be looking at & taking into consideration when looking for a towing vehicle?


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## Pippity (12 March 2022)

Hi ROG,

This is a potentially daft question. If my car can legally tow 1400kg, does that apply to the actual weight of the trailer or the maximum gross weight?

Car is a VW Golf, 1.5l automatic, kerb weight 1280kg, braked load limit 1400kg.
Trailer is, eg, Cheval Liberte Touring One, unladen weight 750kg, maximum gross weight 1600kg.

Would I have to have the trailer downplated to tow it, even empty?

(I'm not planning on the Golf being a long-term towing vehicle, because I know it's far from ideal, but just feeling out a few possibilities.)


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## ROG (12 March 2022)

Pippity said:



			Hi ROG,

This is a potentially daft question. If my car can legally tow 1400kg, does that apply to the actual weight of the trailer or the maximum gross weight?

Car is a VW Golf, 1.5l automatic, kerb weight 1280kg, braked load limit 1400kg.
Trailer is, eg, Cheval Liberte Touring One, unladen weight 750kg, maximum gross weight 1600kg.

Would I have to have the trailer downplated to tow it, even empty?

(I'm not planning on the Golf being a long-term towing vehicle, because I know it's far from ideal, but just feeling out a few possibilities.)
		
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The vehicle max towing limit applies to the actual total weight not the plated weight

Legal example
Vehicle max towing limit 2000
Trailer plated at 3500 MAM
Trailer empty 1000
Max load into trailer 1000


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## Pippity (12 March 2022)

ROG said:



			The vehicle max towing limit applies to the actual total weight not the plated weight

Legal example
Vehicle max towing limit 2000
Trailer plated at 3500 MAM
Trailer empty 1000
Max load into trailer 1000
		
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Great, thank you very much!


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## Elementary (6 April 2022)

My only concern with relatively lightweight vehicles compared to trailer combinations is this experience. Towing with a Jeep Grand Cherokee (mass in service 2347, mpm 2949, max towing capacity 3500kg), Ifor williams 506 weight 920kg unladen + one irish sport horse 6.1 approx 620kg on the tape (so total 1540kg). Travelling down the motorway I had a fire engine start its sirens when right beside me. (Do they get no training for the possible consequences?) My normally stoic eventer made such violent movements that the rear of the vehicle plunged lifting the front wheels such that the steering went light. Thank goodness we were travelling straight and the vehicle was heavy and long enough to deal with the issue. I did not lose steerage at any time but it was close. I am looking for a replacement vehicle due to age. Another concern I have is the very low listed maximum towball load on many vehicles. This is fine for static load caravans etc. but horses are dynamic as I experienced. Who knows what load was placed on the Jeep towball sufficient to drop the rear and lift the front end to such a degree?


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## ROG (6 April 2022)

Elementary said:



			My only concern with relatively lightweight vehicles compared to trailer combinations is this experience. 

Towing with a Jeep Grand Cherokee (mass in service 2347, mpm 2949, max towing capacity 3500kg), Ifor williams 506 weight 920kg unladen + one irish sport horse 6.1 approx 620kg on the tape (so total 1540kg). 

Travelling down the motorway I had a fire engine start its sirens when right beside me. (Do they get no training for the possible consequences?) 
My normally stoic eventer made such violent movements that the rear of the vehicle plunged lifting the front wheels such that the steering went light. 
Thank goodness we were travelling straight and the vehicle was heavy and long enough to deal with the issue. I did not lose steerage at any time but it was close. 

I am looking for a replacement vehicle due to age. 
Another concern I have is the very low listed maximum towball load on many vehicles. This is fine for static load caravans etc. but horses are dynamic as I experienced. 
Who knows what load was placed on the Jeep towball sufficient to drop the rear and lift the front end to such a degree?
		
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Sorry but I had to quote  to split up the  - sea of text - so I could read it ok


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## stimpy (9 May 2022)

ROG said:



*MYTHBUSTER*
This is likely to raise its head again when the free B+E comes into force possibly on November 16th 2021

There is no law or rule which states the plated MAM of the trailer must fit into the maximum tow capacity of the towing vehicle

There are myths about which say that if the trailer MAM is more than the max tow then it has the potential to be overloaded
One way to think about this word potential is this -
Police stop a car on the motorway doing 70 but then charge the driver as the car has the potential to do 150
As we know that is really silly!

Legal example
Vehicle max tow limit 2000
Trailer MAM 3500
Trailer empty 1000
Max load for trailer 1000 due to the lower limit of 2000
		
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Hi ROG

Can I please double check this as there seems tobe so much mis-infomration around this.  I have a Freelander 2 so max tow limit is 2000kg. Can I tow an old Ifor Williams 505 which has a Max Gross Weight higher than the max towing capacity of the Freelander as long as the weight of the trailer plus horses is less than 2000kg? I have two ponies to tow, combined weight of the horses is approx 780kg so I'm working on 800Kg. Trailer MGW is 2340, unladen 905. Reading your explanation above I think it's OK but would really appreciate your definitive opinion as so many people say it's not legal and it's why Freelanders are less than ideal for horse folk.

Does the load in the car contribute to the weight calculations? I'm wondering whether if I have all the tack and water in the car does this impact on the sums to determine whether the trailer is legal.


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## ROG (9 May 2022)

stimpy said:



			Hi ROG

Can I please double check this as there seems tobe so much mis-infomration around this.  I have a Freelander 2 so max tow limit is 2000kg. Can I tow an old Ifor Williams 505 which has a Max Gross Weight higher than the max towing capacity of the Freelander as long as the weight of the trailer plus horses is less than 2000kg? I have two ponies to tow, combined weight of the horses is approx 780kg so I'm working on 800Kg. Trailer MGW is 2340, unladen 905. Reading your explanation above I think it's OK but would really appreciate your definitive opinion as so many people say it's not legal and it's why Freelanders are less than ideal for horse folk.

Does the load in the car contribute to the weight calculations? I'm wondering whether if I have all the tack and water in the car does this impact on the sums to determine whether the trailer is legal.
		
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Load in car is separate and comes under the car GVW (max weight for car including the load/people

If I remember correctly the empty weight of a 505 is 1000 so 1000+800=1800 and under the max tow capacity of 2000

Some numpties think that because the trailer has a greater MAM than the vehicle tow limit that it has the CAPACITY of being overloaded well, my car has the CAPACITY of doing up to 150 mph so does that mean I can get done for doing 30 in a 30 limit? - I think not !


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## stimpy (9 May 2022)

ROG said:



			If I remember correctly the empty weight of a 505 is 1000 so 1000+800=1800 and under the max tow capacity of 2000
!
		
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Thanks so much ROG, the fact that you run this thread is much appreciated!


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## SibeliusMB (27 November 2022)

For @ROG or whoever has experience with these models...

I'm looking to purchase a tow vehicle to pull two full size horses (est. 600 kg each) and an equitrek trailer (rental, exact model unknown at this time).

I've put a deposit down on a used 2008 Range Rover Sport L320, with a 3.6L diesel, good MOT and service history and from a reputable dealer. The RRS puts out 286bhp and 472 lbs of torque, which makes my American, big-truck loving heart feel better. However, after researching more, I'm wondering if the slightly larger Range Rover L322 (with 3.6L diesel) is the better towing option?  The L322 has about 14cm longer wheelbase and about 260+ pounds on the L320. 

I like having more power and control than actually required.  I usually prefer a longer wheelbase as well.  Is the L320 perfectly good and am I completely overthinking this? Or is the L322 the superior tow vehicle?

Regardless of model, which brand/model of fixed tow bar and electrics hookup do I need for heavy duty towing? 

Thank you all!


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## ROG (27 November 2022)

I cannot help with this issue perhaps another can


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## tallyho! (27 November 2022)

Not sure if I can help either. Two 600kg horses isn't that heavy duty tbh and either of those beasts could handle it. It really is what you are comfortable with taking into account your trailer weight.

My first instinct was "heck - tow as many horses as you like with all that!"... the law however says if your licence is pre-1997 you can... (up to 8250kg) but if after, it's still only 3500kg and even if you no longer need a B+E test (painful that I paid for a test). So consider vehicle weight - larger is often heavier which costs you a bit in payload - check your MAM. That's the key bit. If ever you get pulled over the police will check this first. 

Correct me if I am wrong the good people of HHO.


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## ROG (27 November 2022)

tallyho! said:



			Not sure if I can help either. Two 600kg horses isn't that heavy duty tbh and either of those beasts could handle it. It really is what you are comfortable with taking into account your trailer weight.

My first instinct was "heck - tow as many horses as you like with all that!"... the law however says if your licence is pre-1997 you can... (up to 8250kg) but if after, it's still only 3500kg and even if you no longer need a B+E test (painful that I paid for a test). So consider vehicle weight - larger is often heavier which costs you a bit in payload - check your MAM. That's the key bit. If ever you get pulled over the police will check this first.

Correct me if I am wrong the good people of HHO.
		
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B+E is max 3500 vehicle and max 3500 trailer unless it is a pre 97 licence and the trailer has more than over-run brakes such as air brakes with a vehicle legally capable of towing such a trailer so in reality that is not going to happen in the UK


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## candy1103 (28 November 2022)

Hi ROG and Tallyho, firstly thank you for setting up this forum and answering questions. 
I'm looking to downgrade my workhorse of a Landcruiser as much as it pains me. I'm hoping I might be able to get a 4x4 estate to pull the following:
Ifor 403 single trailer unladen weight 767kg
Horse is approx 550kg.
What kind of kerb weight am I looking for in a suitable vehicle to be legal / safe? 
Thank you


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## ROG (28 November 2022)

candy1103 said:



			Hi ROG and Tallyho, firstly thank you for setting up this forum and answering questions.
I'm looking to downgrade my workhorse of a Landcruiser as much as it pains me. I'm hoping I might be able to get a 4x4 estate to pull the following:
Ifor 403 single trailer unladen weight 767kg
Horse is approx 550kg.
What kind of kerb weight am I looking for in a suitable vehicle to be legal / safe?
Thank you
		
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A towing limit of 1500 will do
Most 4x4s will be at least 1400+ when loaded with driver and kit
There are many 4x4s designed to tow 3500 safely even if they weigh much less than that at the time of towing

The max tow limit has been set by manufacturers to SAFELY tow when trailer fully loaded and the vehicle has just the driver in it


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## candy1103 (28 November 2022)

ROG said:



			A towing limit of 1500 will do
Most 4x4s will be at least 1400+ when loaded with driver and kit
There are many 4x4s designed to tow 3500 safely even if they weigh much less than that at the time of towing

The max tow limit has been set by manufacturers to SAFELY tow when trailer fully loaded and the vehicle has just the driver in it
		
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Thanks for getting back so quickly! I've been having a quick look at the volvo and skoda estates. Do I want to be looking at their towing capacity then and not calculating it from their kerb weight then?


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## ROG (29 November 2022)

candy1103 said:



			Do I want to be looking at their towing capacity then and not calculating it from their kerb weight then?
		
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Yes


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## holeymoley (29 November 2022)

candy1103 said:



			Thanks for getting back so quickly! I've been having a quick look at the volvo and skoda estates. Do I want to be looking at their towing capacity then and not calculating it from their kerb weight then?
		
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The Volvo v70 will tow- I know 2 people that tow a double ifor with one horse in it with them.


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## candy1103 (29 November 2022)

holeymoley said:



			The Volvo v70 will tow- I know 2 people that tow a double ifor with one horse in it with them.
		
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Thanks Holeymoley, I had that in my list to look into so that's really helpful to know


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## Boots*McGruber (1 December 2022)

When towing I count the weight I am towing as trailer+horse+a little extra for haynet/ wiggle room. The saddle, bridle, water and all other equipment travels in the car with me and any other humans that  are tagging along and I don’t count this as part of the weight I am towing. Is this incorrect? I saw a post on FB stating that you have to take into account the number of people and weight of any kit you are carrying in the car & this will then reduce your vehicle’s towing capacity by that amount. Confused.


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## ROG (2 December 2022)

Boots*McGruber said:



			When towing I count the weight I am towing as trailer+horse+a little extra for haynet/ wiggle room. The saddle, bridle, water and all other equipment travels in the car with me and any other humans that  are tagging along and I don’t count this as part of the weight I am towing. Is this incorrect? I saw a post on FB stating that you have to take into account the number of people and weight of any kit you are carrying in the car & this will then reduce your vehicle’s towing capacity by that amount. Confused.
		
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What goes into the towing vehicle comes under the vehicle GVW
What the trailer and its load weighs comes under the trailer plated MAM and the vehicle towing capacity

Can you post a link to the FB post?


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## Boots*McGruber (2 December 2022)

ROG said:



			What goes into the towing vehicle comes under the vehicle GVW
What the trailer and its load weighs comes under the trailer plated MAM and the vehicle towing capacity

Can you post a link to the FB post?
		
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Thanks ROG, it was in the comments on an article about towing vehicles and I’m not sure if it’s possible to share the comments, seems I can only link to the article.


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## tallyho! (2 December 2022)

Really? I think it is. Nothing fashionable though I’ll give you that.


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## ROG (2 December 2022)

tallyho! said:



			Really? I think it is. Nothing fashionable though I’ll give you that.
		
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EH? me confused as to your comment - care to explain?


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