# Dressage - poll the highest point?



## mystiandsunny (19 December 2010)

I was always taught this was a basic ingredient, and current instructor in schoolmaster lessons has helped me really see the difference - you lose the 'connection' across the whole spine if this isn't so.  Yet so many horses I see - in comps, on forums etc, don't have this.  The third vertebra or thereabouts is higher in so many pictures, videos and real life scenes, of people schooling, of people winning competitions.  I would agree that the horse feels more powerful, the back more raised, with a lower poll - yet you also lose that fine level of control.  Now I know I'm just learning, albeit on a pretty good horse, so can someone please explain why it is so popular not to worry about this?  Does it matter as much as I've always been taught?  If so, why has thinking changed?


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## Divasmum (20 December 2010)

It hasn't. When I am writing for judges they quite often deduct marks and comment if the poll isn't the highest point.


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## FrodoBeutlin (20 December 2010)

It hasn't, I agree. If horses 'broken at the 3rd vertebra' do well in competition it's just because they are the best in the arena on that specific day and so can get away with it, but for instance, here in Germany where the standards are much higher than in the UK a horse whose poll is not the highest point will never win a class no matter how perfect the test otherwise is. If standards keep improving in the UK too, it will be the same there in the future.

As for forum pictures, well, it's not exactly the Bible is it


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## TarrSteps (20 December 2010)

As above.  Someone has to win. One qualifier I will add though is that it's been my experience here and in North America that, given the option between a horse a bit above the hand and the horse with a low poll, they will pick the one with the low poll even if there are other considerations.  Some of this, obviously, has to so with how soft/through/ridable the horse is too, but some of it, I have a suspicion is still a bit of a hold out about how dressage horses *should* look.  (Note "look" . . )  

There has been much discussion and education on this point and, as FB says, more internationally-minded judges do not fall prey to this thinking.  But unfortunately most people's introduction to dressage (riding school, Pony Club etc.) is not through being trained and evaluated by experienced, educated instructors and judges so they may not initially get a good idea of the big picture.


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## gunnergundog (20 December 2010)

_here in Germany where the standards are much higher than in the UK a horse whose poll is not the highest point will never win a class _

Unfortunately, whilst agreeing with the above comment, there are people in the UK who have been trying to get the need for the poll to be the highest point accepted for years and years.  I remember Janet Poulden and Lady Joicey arguing this over twenty-five years ago at least;  so why is it that the message hasn't been taken up??


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## Booboos (20 December 2010)

I completely agree that it's considered very important in the UK as well and it comes up a lot in the BD convention. However, and I may be wrong here, it may not be such a massive fault in the lower levels (prelim, novice) when horses may be working more on the forehand but could still have nice rhythm and forwardness.


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## Steorra (20 December 2010)

gunnergundog said:



_here in Germany where the standards are much higher than in the UK a horse whose poll is not the highest point will never win a class _

Unfortunately, whilst agreeing with the above comment, there are people in the UK who have been trying to get the need for the poll to be the highest point accepted for years and years.  I remember Janet Poulden and Lady Joicey arguing this over twenty-five years ago at least;  so why is it that the message hasn't been taken up??
		
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I was taught from the first that a horse that is behind the vertical or breaking behind the poll was showing a fundamentally incorrect way of going.  However, I have found that a horse slightly _in front_ of the vertical is penalised more than one that is behind - certainly at the lower levels. At prelim or novice level, when the horse isn't ready for collection, surely it is actually correct for the horse to be in a longer frame (though obviously I don't mean hollow or 'poking the nose' to evade the contact).

Until riders are rewarded for training their horses correctly by judges who know the difference, then many will continue to do what they have to do to score points.  

Sadly it isn't only at the lower levels of judging either - the last gasp of my interest in competing at dressage occurred when a very highly qualified judge I used to have lessons with grabbed my curb rein and hauled my horse's head in to his chest 'to show you where you want his head to be'.  This resulted in the one and only vertical rear of his ridden career, and me ending the lesson sharpish :/


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## chestnut cob (20 December 2010)

Steorra said:



			I was taught from the first that a horse that is behind the vertical or breaking behind the poll was showing a fundamentally incorrect way of going.  However, I have found that a horse slightly _in front_ of the vertical is penalised more than one that is behind - certainly at the lower levels. At prelim or novice level, when the horse isn't ready for collection, surely it is actually correct for the horse to be in a longer frame (though obviously I don't mean hollow or 'poking the nose' to evade the contact).
		
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I wrote for a judge at a local DR comp recently.  The judge competes at PSG and I think she said to me she is training for /taking exams to be a BD List 4 judge (sorry, I don't know enough about it to know how accurate I am about that so apologies if I have that a bit muddled).  The horses who were in a longer frame with noses slightly in front of the vertical got the best marks, in general.  They certainly weren't marked down for it.  The judge marked down both the horses who were behind the vertical / broken at the third vertebrae (she commented to me that all were on the forehand and though it might look pretty, it was incorrect) and those who were poking their noses.  She pointed out to me that most of the horses who were BTV also didn't stretch down in their FWOLR 

It was actually really interesting to write for a judge like that, as I've only ever written for more every day riders/judges in the past, and I learnt an awful lot.


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## FrodoBeutlin (20 December 2010)

TarrSteps said:



			One qualifier I will add though is that it's been my experience here and in North America that, given the option between a horse a bit above the hand and the horse with a low poll, they will pick the one with the low poll even if there are other considerations.
		
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See, my experience here has been the opposite. A horse a bit above the hand will score better than a horse with a low poll who will always, inevitably, be marked low, and this is especially true at the lower levels (Frodo competing at novice and Rauti at medium).


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## icestationzebra (20 December 2010)

Genuinely interested in this point.... does someone have some photos to illustrate and explain the subtle differences?  I think lots of people get it wrong because they have got muddled over the years by the conflicting opinions of trainers and judges.  I see loads of photos on here of horses working at home and in competition where they are not poll high in any of the photos and it's clear to me that the posters think they are brilliant and people reply to say how marvellous they are.......

I personally get very confused by all this - I've had some good dressage marks where I felt the horse was too strong in the hand, too short in the neck and tense, and some poorer marks where I felt the horse was relaxed and longer in the frame, much more rideable but too 'deep'.   

HELP!


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## only_me (20 December 2010)

But surely having the poll at the highest comes from years of training?

I wouldnt expect my 4 year old to have his poll at highest, would rather him down and out!

I thought that as the degree of collection is increased, the neck comes up to have the poll at the highest point?


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## WellyBaggins (20 December 2010)

^^^^ this, unless you have a horse that is "built" in that way, my understanding is that you train the Joe Bloggs horse to this point otherwise you run the risk of "breaking" it, happy to be put right though


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## millitiger (20 December 2010)

Why should a youngster go along with its poll not the highest point?

You can have the poll as the highest point AND the neck and nose out in a looser outline.

imo, a low poll/ behind the vertical is incorrect at all times on all horses and wouldn't be something I would aim to have or be happy with.

(obviously it can happen for a split second here and there, particularly on an unbalanced horse but I would want to correct it immediately)


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## pinktiger (20 December 2010)

emmyc said:



			^^^^ this, unless you have a horse that is "built" in that way, my understanding is that you train the Joe Bloggs horse to this point otherwise you run the risk of "breaking" it, happy to be put right though 

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i too think it depends what scale of training your on as to how high the poll should be or if it dips below!!

to add on another forum from the UK there was a post about someone penailised for the hores being uphil/poll high at novice level!!!!!!


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## only_me (20 December 2010)

millitiger said:



			Why should a youngster go along with its poll not the highest point?

You can have the poll as the highest point AND the neck and nose out in a looser outline.

imo, a low poll/ behind the vertical is incorrect at all times on all horses and wouldn't be something I would aim to have or be happy with.

ly)
		
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Ah, but a low poll dosent mean behind the vertical - down and out! I have my horse (when I get to ride him lol) stretching down through the topline and still forwards into the contact - then pick him up into a "higher" outline, but his poll is not at the highest point, as he is still too weak to hold himself there.


Would you work a youngster at all times with poll at the highest?


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## millitiger (20 December 2010)

only_me said:



			Ah, but a low poll dosent mean behind the vertical - down and out! I have my horse (when I get to ride him lol) stretching down through the topline and still forwards into the contact - then pick him up into a "higher" outline, but his poll is not at the highest point, as he is still too weak to hold himself there.


Would you work a youngster at all times with poll at the highest?
		
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I know a low poll doesn't mean behind the vertical  its just another of my pet hates.

to answer your question, unless specifically stretching (when mine have their noses practically on the floor but in front of the vertical) I always like to work them correctly, which to me is with poll as the highest point.

as i said, obviously they can drop now and then but I wouldn't leave them with the poll down and would ask them up and out again straight away.


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## Booboos (20 December 2010)

OK, I'll take the plunge but don't be too nasty, this is me and my horse!
R is about 5-6 years old here and doing a novice test. Obviously it's just a moment in the test, which he did win so I don't think he was like that through-out:


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (20 December 2010)

IMO there was definately a trend, maybe 3 years ago, for judges to want to see horses very *round* and BTV was neither mentioned nor penalised. over the last 2 years i have noticed judges to be moving away from this. (this is at affil prelim-medium).

the best marks CS got at both nov and elem were days he was poll high, up and out to the hand and this was positively commented on all the way down the sheets and in the collectives and also by the judges after the class. unfortunately, being very long necked, light mouthed , 5yo,and sharp, its not always possible to have him there 100% of the time. 

i dont believe in working horses poll high all the time, i think it makes for a stiff back and braced neck. i will warm up the horse in whatever frame is most effective for that horse, for Bru this is a lot deeper than CS, and as long as they stay taking the contact, and connected, and pushing over the back in to the hand, i dont obsess about where the nose it.

horses tire, people make mistakes, **** happens, i dont think anyone should be shot down for not havinng the poll the perfectly highest point 100% of the time if the horse is relaxed, over the back, reaching for the rein, and happy. 
in a test, by all means, it should be marked down/commented upon, but no one can get it perfect for the entire 4 1/2 mins, much less an entire lesson or session at home.

to have a horse consistantly relaxed, supple, calm and forward is a huge achievement anyway, no one should be berated for not having every point down off pat 100% of every ride.

i know that wasnt the main point of this post, but some comments are a bit snipey, and may put people off posting pics, which i for one,adore seeing.


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## mik (20 December 2010)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			See, my experience here has been the opposite. A horse a bit above the hand will score better than a horse with a low poll who will always, inevitably, be marked low, and this is especially true at the lower levels (Frodo competing at novice and Rauti at medium).
		
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That is really good news. Here in spain I despair, they even do local competitions in Pelhams with just the curb rein.... parents comments... 'don't they look nice' judges? I need to find out how they train local judges here. Some are rather off course in their marking.


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## j1ffy (20 December 2010)

mik - as an owner of a Spanish-trained horse, I can see the effects of this!  The trainer we bought him from trains his horses correctly into the contact and not BTV, but my horse was started by someone else and it's a constant struggle to stop him from curling under.  I suspect he was ridden very much on the curb as he doesn't accept the contact easily (back / teeth / saddle all thoroughly checked).

I'll stick my neck out and post a vid - you can see here the contact issues and tendency to curl up and drop below the "poll high", for which we were consistently penalised on the test sheet (BD judge) and a comment against the collectives.  Excuse the poor ring-craft, I'm very inexperienced at dressage!  Go to "September", we were in 1st place in the Intro class with an extremely generous score IMHO:

http://www.dressageanywhere.com/Home/Results (you can right click on the vid to get full screen).

I was encouraged to see that, even at Intro level, we were penalised for dropping BTV.


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## icestationzebra (20 December 2010)

Well never let it be said that I can't stick my neck out with the best of them.....
This is about 3 years ago - horse would have been 6/7:






This is a more recent one:






First photo is a Novice test (trailblazers I think) and second is a BE Intro test.  Bit hard to compare as they are not like for like but scored better for the first.  I remember her being tense, hurried and tight through the neck.  From the photo I can see the tension through the back and the way that the belly has dropped so that the back is not lifted and swinging.  It wasn't nice to ride but think it scored 66% ish  The second test I was really pleased with - soft and swinging and much more rideable.  Contact felt elastic and just enjoyed every minute but that test scored 35.  I really think I need to do some dressage writing because I'm confused.  One very well respected dressage trainer had me slow everything down in order to get a better balance and better quality step - it felt great, but then all I got on my test sheets was 'needs to be more forward - which is what made us hurried and tense.  But back to topic - poll high in the first pick but it's far from correct...

I could go on forever - it's a dark art that's for sure


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## Booboos (20 December 2010)

I would agree with your feeling in the two photos icestationzebra. In the first he does look a bit tense over the back although the poll is the highest point. I like the overall picture much better in the second one, for that level I think that looks spot on. He also seems better in his head and not BTV, unlike R who was curling in my photo.

Just a question because I am ignorant: if the poll is not the highest point, is the horse necessarily also BTV? I always thought that the two don't necessarily go together, so that you could have a horse who is lowering the poll but the head angle is not BTV and that would just be a young horse thing until more collection is achieved from behind and the poll comes up.


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## lassiesuca (20 December 2010)

I am a huge classical advocate and that is where my heart lies; so ''working on the bit'', the poll being the highest point etc, has always been bought up in the literature, the teachings and training. I used to aimlessly believe that horses needed to work in outline, in the sense that their head is literally vertical- but my opinion has most definitely changed since then!

I like to encourage the back end of horses I ride to lift- I think we have to take into consideration the horses conformation- instead of manipulating them to work in stretches like LDR and nasty rollkur- we should instead; encourage them to lift their back ends and let their necks and heads fall as and where appropriate. 

I sometimes ride my trainers Andalusians mares and she has a large neck- short and large, she does naturally find it comfortable to drop her head quite deep ( we've ridden her round with no rein contact before and ask her to lift from behind, and her head falls into place.) My boy is still in the early phases of his work ( in hand stretches and walking round- developing softness in the jaw), and his head will go where he finds it best too! 

So, I am an advocate of the poll being the highest point, but just as the same as rollkur and nasty extreme stretches- we shouldn't force it- instead develop softeness!

Amy xx


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## FrodoBeutlin (20 December 2010)

Yet there are some internationally successful riders (including one currently quite high up in the rankings) who do work with the poll as the highest point all the time, and their horses do not seem to suffer from it... 

I guess there is more than one road to Rome. It's a bit like working deep, I don't personally like it and would not deliberately work my horses deep, but I do see how it can work for the Dutch riders.

Booboos, of course not -- a low poll does not equal BTV:







Icestationzebra, whatever you do, do not take this forum as an indication of how one should be riding a horse / what is correct / what isn't, because there are pictures on here which make me cringe yet most of the comments are overenthusiastic


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## dressager (20 December 2010)

Icestationzebra you picked up on what I was just about to say reading through the thread, that having the poll the highest point can still mean a tense neck and back. Only had to watch Olympia to see that 

It is a confusing one and as some people suggest the horse should put his head and maintain this position wherever the rider places it, then there is also the emphasis of the poll behind the highest point as a result of every other part of the horse working correctly.

I have to say my new trainer is very much into getting him engaged and having him working uphill, with the aim of achieving a poll high outline at the end, and only from THIS would she advocate making him rounder if necessary, eg she might ask for a bit rounder at the end of the session to stretch different muscles. I find most people do it the other way round, and what they think is roundness is really just the horse evading working through its whole body because the rest of the scales of training aren't there. I know my old trainer was very much "rounder rounder" and horse never felt truly connected. It might work for a horse who is naturally forwards and good in the contact, but generally I see horses slopping around behind the contact with no push from behind. It might feel nice this false roundness but it is a waste of time IMHO.


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## lassiesuca (20 December 2010)

icestationzebra, the latter photo- your horse is beautifully rounded and working well- it is a lovely, lovely photo.


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## dressager (20 December 2010)

What do people think of this in terms of where the poll is and whether the horse looks correct? This is a photo from a year and a half ago when he was then 6. Is this an acceptable outline for a slow to mature WB, or would people prefer the poll higher still? And would the horse still look as relaxed if the poll HAD been brought higher, and would this have required more collection than what he is offering there, taking his build into consideration (ie quite long in the body and in the neck)?


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## JessPickle (20 December 2010)

Have read all this post and have to say find it really interesting.  I have always been taught poll highest point, but implementing this is a whole different matter! particularly considering Pickle is my first horse and isn't the most keen to work correctly!

We do try our best though, he did have a habit of over bending recently, but allowing him to stretch more in warm up seemed to allieviate this.  I do admire people who have posted pictures! I never would have dared.


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## lassiesuca (20 December 2010)

dressager said:



			What do people think of this in terms of where the poll is and whether the horse looks correct? This is a photo from a year and a half ago when he was then 6. Is this an acceptable outline for a slow to mature WB, or would people prefer the poll higher still? And would the horse still look as relaxed if the poll HAD been brought higher, and would this have required more collection than what he is offering there, taking his build into consideration (ie quite long in the body and in the neck)?






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I think that as long as it's not forced, then if this is where he naturally carries himself- then it is fine! His neck doesn't appear to be broken ( as in a broken neckline), he looks attentive, tail appears relaxed and so do you 


Amy xx


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## FrodoBeutlin (20 December 2010)

Dressager, IMHO the photo you posted is practically perfect.

Just compare it to this one of Rauti and me when he was also 6:







The poll isn't quite the highest point, and he looks downhill as well. Risby in yours looks far more uphill, nose slightly in front of the vertical, both ears forward (and we know how important that is  ), and nice hindleg!!


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## TarrSteps (20 December 2010)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			See, my experience here has been the opposite. A horse a bit above the hand will score better than a horse with a low poll who will always, inevitably, be marked low, and this is especially true at the lower levels (Frodo competing at novice and Rauti at medium).
		
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I think when this topic came 'round before I added that my few experiences with truly international trainers/judges - one a young horse producer, the other a FEI judge - have mirrored yours.  They were insistent the [green in both cases] horse go "up and out" really through and coming from behind, with the nose slightly in front.  In the first case it was a clinic and quite a few of the people in it were not best pleased.  I heard similar from the few clinics I've seen with top international team trainers (before they started closing such - publicly funded - clinics in Canada as participants got upset . . ) and in the Balkenhol/Debbie McDonald clinic.  In every case, though, there were people who grumbled - often the ones winning at home but not so much on the world stage . . .

Of course there are moments when the poll gets low and/or the horse may come behind for a moment.  A very spooky horse might *have* to be ridden a bit rounder to avoid disaster.  (The argument being maybe it isn't ready for the ring . . .) The question is can the rider ride the horse up when required at any level, with an appropriate frame.  I do think it's very easy though, to "push" the horse down ever so slightly on the front end and sort of "wedge" it there, a little quicker than ideal, producing a shape that doesn't look all that wrong and gets marks at the lower levels.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (20 December 2010)

i like that pic, appears to have a good honest connection.


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## dressager (20 December 2010)

Thank you Frodobeutlin  I like that one of Rauti though, he looks like he is really trying to please awww. It looks like the camera angle is making him look more downhill than he really is. I guess the main thing with young horses is that nothing should look forced in any way, and as you say, the horse's expression reveal a lot! 



TarrSteps said:



			They were insistent the [green in both cases] horse go "up and out" really through and coming from behind, with the nose slightly in front. .
		
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I completely agree with this. I find it astonishing people will pay the price of a house for a young horse at an auction, which is ridden so incorrectly from the start that surely this must have detrimental effects to the physical and mental well being of the horse.


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## mystiandsunny (20 December 2010)

Interesting replies - thanks everyone .  I think, having read them all, that I'm even more grateful for finding just the instructor I have - she explains everything in terms of the horse's movement and their natural inclinations due to breeding, conformation etc.  I had wondered if this was just not 'in fashion' anymore, but maybe not so.


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## Baydale (21 December 2010)

Booboos said:



			OK, I'll take the plunge but don't be too nasty, this is me and my horse!
R is about 5-6 years old here and doing a novice test. Obviously it's just a moment in the test, which he did win so I don't think he was like that through-out:






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Not read any further than this but was may I just say I love his hindleg, but then I don't really "do" dressage so feel free to ignore this.


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## Baydale (21 December 2010)

Just thinking out loud again - and prompted by Icestationzebra's photos, as I've been lucky enough to ride Jemima (creep creep) - but she can go a bit like HH, where the head comes up, the wither drops and the back hollows, particularly when there are opportunities to spook or look at stuff. So, does where the poll is assume that everything from the wither back is round and soft first? I know if I rode Cal, for example, poll high the whole time I would never be able to get him to work over his back. *sits back and waits to be slated for not having done decent basic training with her horses*


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## Baydale (21 December 2010)

HH as a 6yo, trying to sneak BTV. He got 30.5 ie. 69.5% for that test, jammy beggar.


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## Paladine (21 December 2010)

I scribe a lot, and yes, BTV is penalized frequently.

Keep in mind thought, that often it may score better than a horse above the bit, only because a horse above the bit often has a lot more visible resistance problems.  

A horse going nicely in what we americans call a "hunter frame" (long, swinging, nose poked out but accepting contact) will almost always score better than a curly horse at the low levels. 

 But usually I see a horse too deep, but obedient and pleasant.  Then you see a horse with the poll highest, but resisting contact and tense.  The judge has to pick the lesser of two evils.


It's a long process to self-carriage, and sometimes you have to show just at the place where you are at that moment, and understand that it's not the finished product.


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## Baydale (21 December 2010)

Paladine said:



			It's a long process to self-carriage, and sometimes you have to show just at the place where you are at that moment, and understand that it's not the finished product.
		
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...and you will be marked accordingly, fair enough, as the judge knows nothing about the stage you're at with that horse, how old it is, whether it's a closet contact dodger  or whatever, but they'll assume that as you've entered Novice 37 say, that you are capable of doing most of the things that test requires. 

That's where you need clarity and confidence in your training methods, I guess, rather than using your dressage test as a faux lesson.


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## Paladine (21 December 2010)

Baydale said:



			That's where you need clarity and confidence in your training methods, I guess, rather than using your dressage test as a faux lesson.
		
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Sometimes I wish people would even do that much! haha.  I know people who hardly ever even read the comments, and then wander around wondering why the judge didn't like them.  Really, they put it exactly in words and numbers, for each movement.


But I meant more along the lines of getting a young horse out in the ring for experience, not a "faux lesson."  Sometimes there are "whoops!" moments.


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## Baydale (21 December 2010)

Paladine said:



			Sometimes I wish people would even do that much! haha.  I know people who hardly ever even read the comments, and then wander around wondering why the judge didn't like them.  Really, they put it exactly in words and numbers, for each movement.


But I meant more along the lines of getting a young horse out in the ring for experience, not a "faux lesson."  Sometimes there are "whoops!" moments.
		
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Ah, I see. Everyone gets hung up about getting a less than average percentage, but I'd rather get an 8 (bit optimistic of me, I know ) even if I did get a 4 or 5 for one (or more ) of the "whoops" moments. There's nothing more depressing than a sheet full of 6's and not much written to justify them.


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## Gamebird (21 December 2010)

Paladine said:



			It's a long process to self-carriage, and sometimes you have to show just at the place where you are at that moment, and understand that it's not the finished product.
		
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I think that a lot of professionals won't take a horse out until it is established and going to win at, say, elementary whereas my youngsters go out from 4yos to do dressage just as soon as they're reasonably obedient and can canter a 20m circle on the correct lead wihtout falling over. I don't expect to win with these horses but I do expect to be fairly judged and be credited for the good bits whilst being penalised for wobbly bits.

I took a fairly good 5yo to a dressage clinic once, a 5yo who was getting good marks both unaff and aff but who certainly was a long way from where I'd like him to be. After working-in the trainer asked what I wanted to work on. I commented that test sheets often came back with 'BTV' so this was something I'd like to remedy. The trainer's reply? 'You don't REALLY think this horse is ready to go out and do a test yet?'. 

Maybe not in an ideal world but I quite like to keep taking my 'works in progress' out and about a bit to a) see the sights and b) test where we've got to in terms of marks and comments. If I had to wait until they were 'perfect' before competing we'd both have died of boredom.


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## icestationzebra (21 December 2010)

Lovely photos Frodo/Dressager/BD and really helpful to compare frames.  I get things so much quicker if they are 'visual' 

Tarr Steps makes a good point about some horses being ridden deeper because they are spooky - yes agree with this.  I've certainly used this method myself particularly in a first test - then tried to ride up and out more in a second test where the horse is more settled.  It's hard when they are spooky as the only way to try and curb this is getting them out more and more until they settle - it's not always something you can work on at home.

Can I just say I'm really enjoying this thread - this is what HHO used to be like - interesting debate without any histrionics!


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## icestationzebra (21 December 2010)

Baydale said:



			Ah, I see. Everyone gets hung up about getting a less than average percentage, but I'd rather get an 8 (bit optimistic of me, I know ) even if I did get a 4 or 5 for one (or more ) of the "whoops" moments. There's nothing more depressing than a sheet full of 6's and not much written to justify them. 

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Totally agree with this and was chuffed to get a 9 for our trot work at Burnham Market this year.  The fact that I got a 4 for our walk was a bit of a low point , but it was great marking because the walk was rubbish and the judge was brave enough to use the full range of marks available to her.  That test sheet makes it very clear to me what I need to work on and what I need to keep and secure.  Those sheets that are a list of 6's do not help me one bit


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## icestationzebra (21 December 2010)

Baydale said:



			Just thinking out loud again - and prompted by Icestationzebra's photos, as I've been lucky enough to ride Jemima (creep creep) - but she can go a bit like HH, where the head comes up, the wither drops and the back hollows, particularly when there are opportunities to spook or look at stuff. So, does where the poll is assume that everything from the wither back is round and soft first? I know if I rode Cal, for example, poll high the whole time I would never be able to get him to work over his back. *sits back and waits to be slated for not having done decent basic training with her horses* 

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Not sure if 'lucky' is the word BD   but yes exactly those similarities which is why perhaps we've gone a little too deep in the past to try and strengthen through the back and stop that natural tendency to hollow beneath the saddle.  Where HH had the upper hand though was the elasticity he held through his body, so even when he was coming back at you a bit he looked so supple he got away with it.  When you've got a shiny wall of suppleness that big in front of you it's pretty impressive


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## icestationzebra (21 December 2010)

lassiesuca said:



			icestationzebra, the latter photo- your horse is beautifully rounded and working well- it is a lovely, lovely photo.
		
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That's sweet of you, thank you


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## dressager (21 December 2010)

Icestationzebra, Booboos and Baydale thank you for posting pics of your lovely horses too, it's really nice to see some different horses for a change looking like happy athletes. I think  sometimes a bit rounder in a test on a spooky/young horse is no bad thing if it means a mistake free test which keeps the horse's attention. I know the pros might not have to do that and can direct the extra energy straight upwards to the poll but from an amateur point of view, sometimes easier said than done in the ring!

Icestationzebra I totally agree about the lack of useful threads now. As soon as I get more photos or hopefully vids in the new year I would love to hear people's true opinions on our training, and not just a load of ego inflating compliments


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## KatB (21 December 2010)

Very very interesting thread, and agree ISZ, this is exactly how the forum should be 

Just to point out to those who state it is not possible to have a weak horse who isn't built uphill to be poll high, here is my mare as a very weak 4 yr old (I'd had her about 4 weeks, she'd been backed about 8 weeks) who is naturally croup high and not built for dressage at all being poll high and on the vertical:







Here she is later on in her training, but where "poll high" is a result of tension:







Ultimately we are looking for the "correct" outline but bourne out of correct training and relaxation, not through tightness. Therefore according to the judging at the time, you can be marked down for an "incorrect" but soft and round test, as much as a tight but "poll high" test, as both are ultimately incorrect... ?


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## icestationzebra (21 December 2010)

dressager said:



			Icestationzebra I totally agree about the lack of useful threads now. As soon as I get more photos or hopefully vids in the new year I would love to hear people's true opinions on our training, and not just a load of ego inflating compliments 

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We're all in danger of agreeing with each other - am I in the right place? 

Please post some photos/videos so we can have a bit of a virtual lesson.  I can't ride or even lunge at the moment so am bored and frustrated.  It's so nice to see lovely horses work and as you say to pick up tips and suggestions for improvements.  I like to watch the warm ups at events/shows and am amazed actually how many unhappy horses I see and how resentful some of them look.  I can't quite make out if this is because they are bullied into going a certain way, or just bored or even a bit sore.... that said, some of them go in and do a correct test and do well.  I wish there would be a category in the collectives for 'jollyness'.  That way when I am charging down the long side of the arena in medium canter with the horse planning to take on the white boards at the end, I know I'll get a mark for it   There's expression, and then there is overenthusiastic


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## mik (21 December 2010)

I agree, great thread, really interesting. Thanks for sharing the photos, Icestationzebra, Booboos and Baydal. 
The 666 syndrome is rife here in Spain, and I was chatting to a 'novice' judge here yesterday, she puts 6 when she doesn't really know what to say, misses something etc, I was horrified. 
I love it when a judge uses the full range of marks and makes useful comments, I also think our youngsters should be constant in their 'elastic' contact and going happily into the bridle, straight and rhythmically. The rest will follow. 
I like rider who push for a bit of expression in their tests, even if the odd explosion occurs, as long as they don't disappear out of the arena!!!


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## Willow1306 (21 December 2010)

Great thread!

When I had my last horse I really struggled to find an instructor who didn't want me to use excess hand to draw my horse into an overbent, tight, tense outline with the hind end trailing several feet behind the front. Therefore I never had that many lessons with her....

Anyway, this is an example of some very early schooling with her. I know it isn't a 'wow' photo and she's not a big, flash dressage horse, nor am I a well-tuned dressage rider, but what do we think of this for some (genuinely) early schooling with a just backed 5yo? 
	
	
		
		
	


	





We never did reach the status of flashy dressage horse or well-tuned dressage rider btw, many obstacles in our path. This is probably the best example of how she became after a couple of years of work:






I struggled a lot with this mare unfortunately. Her saving grace was that she would jump anything.

Oh, and found another pic. This was taken at the beginning of a pre-jumping session, just a bit of a stretch, poll not the highest point, but also not BTV? (I do appreciate there are again many things not to like about the picture).


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## charlie76 (21 December 2010)

Comments on my boy, this is how he used to go when I got him:


















and this is him now














and warming up:












He was backed in draw reins and has taken 2 yrs to make a minor improvement!


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## only_me (21 December 2010)

Charlie - quite an improvement! My first thoughts from the first couple of photos where he looked "broken" in the neck, not really coming from behind and ridden in draw reins. You can see the whole picture looks better in the last photos, he looks more together as well, just more uphill and consistent  From a non-dressage perspective, anway 

Just to prove I am not against poll high - I do try and ride for a test with horse "picked up" but you can see here he is slightly BTV - my fault due to too much inside hand coming into a circle!






Billy actually works pretty well poll high, but I find it more difficult to stop him coming BTV in this position, therefore most of my work with him (when I get to ride him  ) is done low and out into the contact 

See - and please excuse the horrible riding from me  
Poll high, but downhill










Having done no real flatwork schooling with him, this would be him naturally i think - and I can forsee that I am going to have problems keeping him from coming behind the bit, but hopefully if I work on that now he will improve


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## lassiesuca (21 December 2010)

I thought I'd add a few to the collection 








That is me riding an Instructors Andalusian Mare- I wasn't asking at all with my hands for any form of flexion, but her conformation meant this was where she would naturally place her neck. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHoGImSyBvc


This is my old pony and I at a dressage comp....







Amy x


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## FrodoBeutlin (21 December 2010)

Charlie76, I think there is definitely a vast improvement as at least he is not desperately trying to open his mouth to escape the bit pressure as he was in the first three pictures, but he is still broken at the 3rd vertebra and below the vertical, and the poll is never the highest point.


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## charlie76 (21 December 2010)




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## dressager (21 December 2010)

Charlie76 it's amazing how different he looks with the poll the highest point in the last 2 pics, you've come such a long way with him and he's starting to look mega! You are also sitting up much better in the top picture  I'm sure horse and rider position are connected more than people realise.


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## charlie76 (21 December 2010)

if you think thats bad this was last year- sack of spuds springs to mind!:


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## bigboyrocky (21 December 2010)

(about 2yrs ago) totally 'broken' neck (excuse the riding aswell)





better outline and coming through from behind more, but still broken?





good ouline, nose slightly infront if the verticle however poll still not the highest point, stepping through well form behind?


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## mik (21 December 2010)

charlie76 said:



			Comments on my boy, this is how he used to go when I got him:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w207/sharola76/paulmeeka001.jpg
He was backed in draw reins and has taken 2 yrs to make a minor improvement![/QUOTE]

I applaud you, well done!
		
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## bigboyrocky (21 December 2010)

mik said:



			I applaud you, well done!
		
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Ditto, what a transformaion!


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## Paladine (21 December 2010)

Good pics showing progress everyone!

I guess I'll be brave and actually post a video of the very BTV-prone young horse I had.  

Conformationally, it was VERY easy for him to be a little poll low- he was on the downhill side of a growth spurt, so on the forehand anyway, and then add in that he was kept a stallion very late, he had a very cresty neck for a 5 year old.  He was also very very sensitive in the bridle- I found the lightest, fattest snaffle in the world for him, or he'd totally evade it.

This was his first show, and you can see the BTV tendencies, especially in the canter, and then the moments where he's pretty good.  It was also brutally hot and he was behind my leg, so not much to add leg for lift.

Training 3 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MvoVeLYy8g&feature=related

Training 4 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObGCjtwpc4I&feature=related


And how he was the summer before . . . very weak and curly


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## Kelpie (21 December 2010)

really enjoying reading this thread.

Just a few things to throw into the melting pot:

When we talk about the poll being the highest point, do we mean the highest point of the horse full stop, or do we mean the highest point of his skeleton?  My understanding is that it would normally mean the highest point of his skeleton.... a cresty stallion might otherwise struggle a bit, for example.  Would others agree??

Also, although ultimately we might want the poll to be the highest point, isn't it one of those things where actually we can't always go straight to that?  For example, our Friesian has a default mode of going of sticking his head in the air and yes his poll is then the highest point but he then feel so tight accross the back.  This can be so even when he is also not behind the vertical.  So, we've been trying really hard to get him long and low, even if it does mean that temporarily his poll gets a bit low - so long as it's low and out rather than low and part of a curley neck bend, if that makes sense? (not sure if he's been ridden in draw reins before or if it's a Freisian thing but if you let him, he'd go alongwith his head on his chest.....).

(.... one of these days I'll get OH to take some pics but mostly I ride on my own so sorry, distinct lack of pics to show what I mean...!)


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## event_rider (21 December 2010)

My two cents....

My understanding of a "Broken Neck" (i.e. naturally bending at the third vertabrae) was that it was a *conformation fault* like cow hocks, a roach back or pidgeon toes? 

The horse's anatomy means that it naturally tends to work "neck high" rather than "poll high" and that they consequently find working in a classically correct outline either difficult or impossible?


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## JessandCharlie (21 December 2010)

Kelpie, I have a freisian X and we have much the same problem. He tends to rush a bit and have a fixed head up, back tight position 

He is getting there, we too have done a lot of work into very light contact, encouraging him to stretch down without (hopefully) coming BTV

Now. I have found this thread very interesting indeed, and wondered if you lovely people could take a look at some pictures of said FreisianX please. These are from late summer, and I'd only had him 1 month here. I promise I have improved, my truly horrific arms have bend in the elbows and my hands no longer look like I'm pushing a pram. I'm not all the way there though, so you can see where I need to improve.

I'm fully aware of my utter pants riding, and would love some CC on it. Be as brutal as you like with me, but please, I would love even more to know how to improve as opposed to just what (if that makes sense) I know somebody really ought to superglue my arse to the saddle, my elbows to my sides (What IS going on with my arms!) and I expect plenty of other things too  













Sorry for hijacking. I kind of have thoughts on these photos, but would like to see what you think of them


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## TGM (21 December 2010)

event_rider said:



			My understanding of a "Broken Neck" (i.e. naturally bending at the third vertabrae) was that it was a *conformation fault* like cow hocks, a roach back or pidgeon toes?
		
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Hmmmm ... not so sure about that.  I agree that some horses' conformations do make it more likely for them to develop a 'broken neck', but some styles of riding and training do seem to do that as well.  I know some horses that have a natural tendency towards a 'broken neck' who have been trained to work  correctly, and others who have no conformational tendency that way initially, who have developed the fault through the way they have been ridden and trained.


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## dressager (21 December 2010)

Paladine he looks like a nice youngster there, thank you for posting a video, it is even more helpful. As you say, he is behind the leg but that is so typical of young horses. Is it correct to say that if a horse is behind the leg it will never truly achieve the poll high outline, unless created artificially leading to stiffness? And this brings us back to the scales of training I guess. Therefore if horses are BTV the first thing is to get them truly off the aids and in front of the leg? Using Charlie76s examples, the horse looks active and like he's really going somewhere when the poll is up compared when its BTV. 

Kelpie, absolutely, some cresty stallions will find it physically impossible to be poll high. And yes, long and low and out rather than curly. That is how I have seen all the top trainers teach, including Klaus Balkenhol at the National Convention recently. He was VERY strict about giving the rein to the horse, allowing the horse to work with the neck postitioned out forwards and never ever restricting or pulling the head back and in. It is difficult to grasp it without seeing people train like that regularly, and I guess why we see so many people pulling the horse into an outline rather than allowing it into an outline.


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## kirstyhen (21 December 2010)

My advice is, don't buy a horse with a big white blaze that runs either side of his face and gives an optical illusion of him being behind the vertical, or exaggerating it when he is BTV!  Unless that horse likes to poke his nose slightly. unfortunately Hen used to find it very easy to work poll high, but BTV, curling up was his 'go-to'. Getting him to work long and low was absolute torture!

At competitions he would always go tense, pokey nosed and hollow, this is one of the few photos I have of him looking quite 'nice'


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## event_rider (21 December 2010)

dressager said:



			Kelpie, absolutely, some cresty stallions will find it physically impossible to be poll high.
		
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I suppose that this was I was getting at - some horses as a result of their confirmation will never work in a classically correct outline. 

I know of a 3 star eventer with a very strong crest and short neck (full bred Irish Draft) that didnt work BTV but found it practically physically impossible to work poll high. This really infuriated the top pure dressage trainer that worked with it but ultimately they came to the conclusion that there wasn't much to improve it's head carriage due to its confirmation. 

Interestingly enough, whilst said horse was never going to be a grand prix dressage horse, it always acheived VERY smart marks in eventing dressage. I don't think it ever got marks deducted for its head carriage!


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## TarrSteps (21 December 2010)

It's not possible for a horse to be going absolutely, perfectly correctly from a competitive dressage training point of view without the poll being the highest point.  It is, however, perfectly possible for a horse to be going INCORRECTLY with the poll as the highest point. 

Like everything in training, it's the big picture/long term/whole chocolate box.  A horse may be going BETTER and still be slightly poll low.  It might even be going BETTER than another horse.  But it should still lose (because we seem to be talking about competition) to a horse going as well in the other areas and with the poll as the highest point.  The confusion seems to come because someone has to win and without watching and remembering every horse in a class it's almost impossible to say this horse won/lost because of "x".

The problem with a horse slipping behind is that it's pernicious and sometimes it becomes so habitual the rider CAN'T ride the horse up and keep it soft and through.  This is the problem.  So the horse may be a bit poll low at points for whatever reason in its schooling.  Not a disaster at all and maybe, depending on the horse, necessary.  But if the rider can't then ride the horse up, he/she has to ask himself why that is . . . 

It's all about having options and gymnasticising the horse so it can go however it needs to, not always with a qualifier.

Horses that jump for a living are a bit of a different situation.  It doesn't mean jumping/event riders shouldn't examine the issue but it also needs to be remembered that these horses spend (or at least should spend) a lot of time poll high by default, doing their other jobs, and the flat work that most helps their jumping might not always be the same work that would help them eventually become upper level dressage horses.


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## Kelpie (22 December 2010)

JessandCharlie said:



			Kelpie, I have a freisian X and we have much the same problem. He tends to rush a bit and have a fixed head up, back tight position 

He is getting there, we too have done a lot of work into very light contact, encouraging him to stretch down without (hopefully) coming BTV

Now. I have found this thread very interesting indeed, and wondered if you lovely people could take a look at some pictures of said FreisianX please. These are from late summer, and I'd only had him 1 month here. I promise I have improved, my truly horrific arms have bend in the elbows and my hands no longer look like I'm pushing a pram. I'm not all the way there though, so you can see where I need to improve.

I'm fully aware of my utter pants riding, and would love some CC on it. Be as brutal as you like with me, but please, I would love even more to know how to improve as opposed to just what (if that makes sense) I know somebody really ought to superglue my arse to the saddle, my elbows to my sides (What IS going on with my arms!) and I expect plenty of other things too  













Sorry for hijacking. I kind of have thoughts on these photos, but would like to see what you think of them 

Click to expand...

ooh, what's your Freisian crossed with??

The 2nd pic in particular I'd say looks like a theoretically pretty reasonable head carriage but then it's hard to see from the pic what's really going on with how well he's singing over the back, etc - which is of course the problem with pics, snapshot in time and all that (not saying he isn't swinging nicely too but just that you can't tell from the pic).... and I mention only because you asked for CC but your arms do look a bit tight maybe and I was always taught that tight arms will translate to tight mouth, which translates to tight poll/ neck/ back, etc..... one of the trainers I work with is really into the effect of rider position on the horse and I have to say whenever he nags me to sit better, the effect on the horse is obvious, even if I haven't knowningly changed anything I'm actively doing as such, just sitting better... he always tells me the goal is for me to sit (well) and the horse to "do"


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